# How can we improve the present UK show scene ?



## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

OK folks lets have your ideas on how we can invigorate the present show scene - here are mine :

* CC's for all Ch shows and grading for all dogs entered . If no dogs are graded excellent then no CC to be awarded.

* Benching to be optional and booked in advance, space for trolleys and crates near the ring. 

* Champion classes eligible for BOB but not for CC's and introduce a Grand Champion title for those winning 10 Champion classes.

* An end to the 'fast tracking' of some all rounders at the expense of breed specialists. 

* Encourage a wider classification of breeds at Open show level by removing all restrictions 

* Open shows to only use judges on breed judging lists to give aspiring breed specialists the chance to progress .

* Special Champion , Neuter and Baby Puppy classes at Open shows 

* Grading at Open shows with all BOB's graded excellent to qualify for Crufts and finally ....

* Allow exhibitors to buy their breed entry catalogue pages only instead of the whole bloomin thing !

what would be on your wish list ?


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Loving your list!

I'd like to see there be no immediate fail for over sized toy breeds- yes it's a fault and should be marked down for, but not completely excluded  (perhaps a point system?)


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

Advertise Open shows more widely! Honestly, even knowing which sites to look at I still struggle to find out when and where Open shows local to me are on. There are more adverts for charity run shows around than there ever are for actual Open shows. They feel almost like little cliquey show-world get togethers sometimes, and that really shouldn't be the case. To get more people in and trying it out we need to let people know they are actually on and available for entry.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Excellent point ! ......perhaps schedules could be sent to ringcraft clubs, pet food stores and vets ...adverts in local papers would be good too, show societies could use things like Facebook to raise awareness , perhaps Compnanion shows could be run alongside some Open shows to encourage new people to have a go at the next level of showing.

Ps ....have you looked at the Fosse Data and Higham Press sites for upcoming shows ?


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Love your suggestions! Mine was going to be the same with the champions and grand champions, to give more people a chance of making up champions rather than people collecting tickets on their dogs over and over again.

So since you did that one; mine would be that BPIB at champ shows and puppy group placing should be able to collect JW points!! 

The other day we went BPIB and WPG4 but got no junior warrant points, because there was only 2 in the class  We beat all the puppies, plus all the dog puppies (of which there were loads!) and didn't get any points. 

It should not cost anything to file a complaint with the KC.

I think a certain number of RCC should could as a CC; ie 3RCC = 1CC


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

Bijou said:


> Excellent point ! ......perhaps schedules could be sent to ringcraft clubs, pet food stores and vets ...adverts in local papers would be good too, show societies could use things like Facebook to raise awareness , perhaps Compnanion shows could be run alongside some Open shows to encourage new people to have a go at the next level of showing.
> 
> Ps ....have you looked at the Fosse Data and Higham Press sites for upcoming shows ?


Definitely agree with you that schedules should be distributed more widely. Our ringcraft club already has local schedules available, but pet food stores are a good idea. Maybe libraries or local village halls too?

I quite like the idea of running Companion and Open shows together too, though Companion shows do tend to be more "Turn up on the day" to the Open show pre-entry system, so I'm not sure how you'd manage the 'having a go' people. Maybe just one AV class to be open, like a tester class?

And I'm always on Fosse Data and Higham Press and Dog.biz , yeah  Doesn't mean figuring out which shows are local to me are open for entry becomes any easier! I think the Open world is in an odd halfway house space between online entries and paper entries which makes it a bit difficult to find the right listings. Maybe encouragement for all Open shows to have online entry would help?


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

Critiques should be either given to you on the day (on paper) or emailed to you ASAP. They can still be printed and people will still buy the papers.

Also, critiques on up to 3rd at qualifying champ shows. 

All judges should critique class winners and up to BIS at Open Shows.

Dog press should inform show societies when their show will be in the paper. The societies then can batch email the exhibitors who wished to be informed of this.

Also, when an entry is recieved by post, the show can email a standardised comformation to the exhibitor to confirm it. (In case of lost by post)

Maybe random undercover judge watching too? So a spectator follows the judge to a few shows and sees if they are bias? Maybe if the judge has been reported?


EDIT; Dober I've just seen your point about puppy group placing's not counting toward JW points, I agree and maybe AV classes could count too (or at least if you get best AV puppy etc)


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I wish there was one directory of all shows - rather than Fossedata, Higham , dogs biz and paper schedules! 

Gets confusing!


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

I think the one thing that I think will make the biggest difference, and seems to stick out on a lot of the posts here too - the show world needs to get more in touch with technology!

Without sounding insulting or rude, most of the show societies and the show world as a whole is run by...... old codgers!! Old codgers who have no interest in technology and don't know how to move things along. I genuinely think the show world is very much stuck in the dark ages! As people are saying, Open shows can be SO hard to find out about, postal entries are a pain in the backside and it's just a difficult world to find out about and get involved in.

I think the biggest and best thing that could happen to the show world is if they open it up and advertise it to YOUNG people, and just be more friendly. When we were first enquiring about ringcraft classes, my dad rang around all the numbers and was met with a few very short, unhelpful replies - on ringing one club, he asked where/when the ringcraft classes are held, and literally all the guy on the phone said was "We don't do August!" and slammed the phone down on him! To me, I don't find the show world welcoming enough. Once you're in, it's fine and i've not had much issue with anybody yet, but initially trying to find out and get involved as a complete newbie, it's just a minefield!

I think if they get a little more in touch with technology and social media, and try to sell the idea of showing to some younger people, then they'll have a much better chance of the show world continuing to thrive in years to come. Me & my dad are on the committee for one of our local open shows, we were asked to join because they wanted "some young people" on board... my dad is 50!!! So that gives you an idea of just how old some of them are!

But with the world moving on as quickly as it is, I certainly think it's time for them to pass the reins over to the younger generation and let us take over a little bit,try and bring dog showing into the 21st century! To me, THAT will make the biggest difference of anything, because without new people getting involved, the whole thing will die out.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Yes....yes...YES !!!! ......I've just come back from showing in France where there were loads of youngsters in the sport , some showing dogs they'd bought in but others are starting their own breeding programmes to take the breed into the future , you're completely right we need to encourage the next generation or everything will just grind to a halt.

I do think there remains a stuffy old guard who look down their noses at new folk, often closing ranks and refusing to welcome new ideas , the KC is the perfect example of this with it's closed membership and insistence on keeping the same old format in the way things are run. Look at how popular Companion shows have become , this is because they suit the needs of modern exhibitors better and are much more inclusive to those wanting to 'have a go' , with modern technology no show needs to close it's entries months before the show date ! ....it also needs to be much easier for youngsters to progress up the judging ladder , not have ever more hoops to jump through before being passed to give tickets , it took me 25 years to eventually qualify to give my first set of CC's .......it's just a nonsense !


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Liking and agreeing with just about everything so far - some really good points already raised, but here are a few more:

Import register BOB to be allowed to compete in Group like all other BOB winnners - either that or scrap import register altogether and just have AVNSC.

Rings to be of varying sizes to suit the size of breed, instead of one size fits all whether they are Irish Wolfhounds or chis

Rings to be of varying sizes to suit number of exhibits in each class, not the same size for 2 import register dogs in OD and 22 border collies in OD

Benching to be near to ring, not at opposite sides of the show and not necessitating a trawl though trade stands to get back and forth to rings

Car parking to be as near to benching tents as possible instead of one huge car park miles away

Grooming areas next to rings to be covered - a sideless marquee, for example, to keep off the sun

Approx times and ring numbers to be printed in schedules so that you can judge whether or not classes are likely to clash if you have more than one breed, or handling entries, stakes entries etc

Online entries not to incur a surcharge of £1.00 (or sometimes even more) for admin - why is there more admin in processing online entries than paper entries?

And finally, this one is especially for Darlington and border collies  Wet weather rings to be in the same tent as the benches, not in a tent at the opposite end of the field to the benches (I kid you not - this always happens with border collies at Darlington - hopefully it will change with their new venue!)

I'm bound to think of more - I'll add them if I do.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Bijou said:


> Yes....yes...YES !!!! ......I've just come back from showing in France where there were loads of youngsters in the sport , some showing dogs they'd bought in but others are starting their own breeding programmes to take the breed into the future , you're completely right we need to encourage the next generation or everything will just grind to a halt.
> 
> I do think there remains a stuffy old guard who look down their noses at new folk, often closing ranks and refusing to welcome new ideas , the KC is the perfect example of this with it's closed membership and insistence on keeping the same old format in the way things are run. Look at how popular Companion shows have become , this is because they suit the needs of modern exhibitors better and are much more inclusive to those wanting to 'have a go' , with modern technology no show needs to close it's entries months before the show date ! ....it also needs to be much easier for youngsters to progress up the judging ladder , not have ever more hoops to jump through before being passed to give tickets , it took me 25 years to eventually qualify to give my first set of CC's .......it's just a nonsense !


Agree completely... how many young judges do you see nowadays? The criteria you have to meet to become a judge and work your way up the judging ladder is ridiculous, I understand people need to be very familiar and experienced to become a top end judge, but it just seems SO hard.

I think it would be a good idea at the likes of Crufts if dog showing was made a little more understandable to the public, they could maybe have someone stood by one of the classes (perhaps a stakes class so people get to see different breeds in the ring at once) just explaining what's going on and why certain dogs are handled in certain ways, and just explain the showing system a little bit. With the amount of people (especially kids and teenagers) that attend crufts, it's an ideal situation to explain how showing works and encourage people to get involved. I totally agree in what you say that the majority of the show world is ran by people who do look down their noses at newbies, and in some cases, actually try to frighten them off!

I know how annoying the public can be at Crufts, especially to those with coated and groomed dogs... we don't mind people fussing and stroking Mabel (Manchester Terrier), in fact - we encouraged people to say hello to her, but I don't think we'd be quite so happy to do so if she was a Poodle or an Old English Sheepdog, at least Mabel's coat can't get ruffled out of place and sticky finger marks can just be wiped down! But the way I see it is, Crufts is ONE champ show a year where we are likely to be surrounded by public, and many of those people might be considering a KC reg pup, and if their experience of the exhibitors and the showing environment was good, it might just sway them to get involved. Because of that, we always make sure we're polite and informative towards people and we always make a point of talking about showing, just planting the seed with people!

I also agree with you on the entry system, why do they need to close so long before a show? Surely if each show society just got a grip with technology and set up something like a Paypal account, peoples payments would be processed straight away and the booking confirmation email can be doubled up as an entry pass, or if there's any issue with anyone not receiving their passes, it's on record that they have indeed paid for their entry. I just don't think there's any need for the old fashioned postal orders and postal entries. I think it will come in time, just at the moment, the majority of folk are too old fashioned to make use of it. I know at one of our ringcraft clubs, we mentioned setting up a FB page and posting photos from every rally we do, and a lot of them just couldn't understand why!



Spellweaver said:


> Liking and agreeing with just about everything so far - some really good points already raised, but here are a few more:
> 
> Import register BOB to be allowed to compete in Group like all other BOB winnners - either that or scrap import register altogether and just have AVNSC.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything bolded here (well, I agree with ALL of it, but the bolded ones affect me too), even though we only show a Manchester and obviously she's not the biggest dog in the world, even we have found some of the rings ridiculously small, lord knows how people with large breeds managed! Mabel is better when she's moved quite quickly, so obviously we prefer a larger ring, and some rings just haven't been large enough to get the right pace with her. At one show, the ring was small and had these metal stands that had the plastic ribbon stuff tied to it to separate the rings out, the stands had legs that stuck quite far out, and as I was going around the ring (this was for the terrier puppy group) I nearly tripped over one of the legs on the stand and literally had to jump over it to stop myself from tripping, it was ridiculous! Car parking could be a lot better too, I know a lot of the times they can't do much about the venue, but they could do a better layout so it's not such a trek to the benches when you've got a dog and a crate and a bag and a whole load of other stuff! Walking to the bench and wrestling with all the stuff and the dog is the one time of the day when me and my dad ALWAYS fall out :lol: :lol:


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Oh and one more thing from me; rosettes! How come when you enter a champ show for £30 you get a little bit of card but when you ente a fun show for £1 you get a nice ribbon? 

I think 1st places at least should get a ribbon, I realise seasoned pros need another ribbon like they need a whole in the head, but for a lot of people it's nice to have something to show for your win. If someone doesn't want it they can just politely decline it, or hand it back into the secretaries tent.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Dober said:


> Oh and one more thing from me; rosettes! How come when you enter a champ show for £30 you get a little bit of card but when you ente a fun show for £1 you get a nice ribbon?
> 
> I think 1st places at least should get a ribbon, I realise seasoned pros need another ribbon like they need a whole in the head, but for a lot of people it's nice to have something to show for your win. If someone doesn't want it they can just politely decline it, or hand it back into the secretaries tent.


Definitely agree with that too! Being new to showing, we like getting rosettes, we're always a bit disappointed when it's only a card  like you say, when it costs so much to enter, it would be nice to at least come away with something proper, and again, as you say, people who don't want them can always give them back... we do it a lot at ringcraft, they only give out cards but we end up with loads of them from rallies and stuff, so we've started giving them back (unless they're 1sts ) as we don't display them or anything, and it saves them buying more.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

defo need something online, Tigerneko and I were talking about setting one up so people could view all the details of all the shows in one place and see if the show has a class for their breed and CCs on offer. But i dont think my web designing skills are advanced enough to do it ha.

would be so much easier if at the press of a button you could put your entry details in submit, pay through paypal, get emailed confirmation and done with all that is left to do is show up on the day


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

Oh yes the rosette issue. I think if you qualify for Crufts you should be able to get a special rosette with your win. Or at least be asked if you would like one. At Windsor had to buy my third rosette and brought a qualifying rosette too. Shame I just got a piece of card with a picture of a castle on it for such a big moment in Dexter's show career!

It is VERY annoying that I still have no red rosette -have every colour but!

Also I don't think people should be able to buy rosettes unless they actually can show the card to prove it. Else what's the point? Saw a woman who wasn't entered buy a first rosette. This is one with he society's name on it too!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

As a newcomer I totally agree with the rosettes at champ shows. I was expecting something rather grand - and to just get a card was a bit much! 

I refuse to buy my own rosette - wouldn't feel like I'd won it! 

Agree with the size of rings - some of the IS rings have been ludicrously small. You've no sooner started running then have to turn and come back.

I was wondering about doing a website for all the shows - I could easily list shows and link through to the various online booking pages so wouldn't be treading on toes but it would be a fair bit of work, and I don't see how I could make it worth while. Every show would be benefitting, as people must miss out on this or that one as they aren't looking in the right place. When I started showing I didn't realise that Fosse data didn't list all shows for quite some time.


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

Dog Biz, Higham Press, Dog Show Central and Dog Show Central with very rare KC site browsing is where I find my shows. 

Anyway, off to Ringcraft. Hope to see more posts


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

I definitely agree with those who have mentioned having shows listed in a single place. I've been looking at Fosse Data for ages but only recently discovered that there are other websites with other shows listed.

The showing world does seem quite difficult to break into. We're lucky as we have Fitz & Wybie's breeder helping us and she introduced us to the ringcraft class we go to. If she hadn't though we'd never have found it. There's very little information about it online and we'd have had no idea if we needed to get in touch first or just turn up or what.

I like the idea of neuter classes. I think they'd be a good way for new people to have a go at showing. I'm sure there are people who have an existing neutered dog who they'd like to have a go with but even though it's possible to show with them it doesn't currently seem that accessible.


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## Chloef (Feb 23, 2011)

Dog show central does list every show and has links to schedules and online entry if its available, also starprint produce a show diary which lists all the shows


I'd like to see more breed clubs (or any of the clubs in my breed) provide online entry facility I do most of my entries online I think the only shows I enter on paper are club shows


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

For those of you wanting one list of all shows, The Kennel Gazette has a rolling comprehensive list of all shows - it's currentlly up to end September this year, and up to January next year for field trials. You don't have to buy the magazine: you can access the list electronically from the KC website or this link wil take you directly to the pdf file:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/3200/showdiary.pdf


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Oh, and just one more thing! D) I would like to see more cluster shows, ie shows in the same weekend in the same area. Next weekend I am doing three shows in two days; Leeds on the Friday, a breed club champ in the morning and then an open in the afternoon. It makes it SO much easier, because if they were all on different days it would cost a fortune in petrol money and hotels (As I am south) and probably wouldn't bother entering.


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