# Selective aggression



## Mercy1 (Jan 17, 2011)

I have a oriental burmese type cat called mister which I rescued, he is about 6 yrs old and I've had him for a year.

We are an adult household but my little grandson is brought around by his parents weekly. Every now and then when I'm least expecting it, mister will attack the baby for no reason. I could understand it if the baby was pulling his tail or such but no, mister will reach out and bite him. The baby is now 18mnths and as gentle as can be with cats in general but mister seems to hate him anyway. 

A couple of months ago mister attacked my sister who is a big cat lover, he sprang four feet in the air, turned on his side and raked her arm with his claws.

He has attacked us at times but we know the warning signs and either put a laundry basket on him or eyeball him, daring him to try it.

But most of the time he's as sweet a companion as you could want, he likes to share air with you, close as can be, likes to be played with (a mouse on a string) and this we do often. He likes traveling in the car. He calls loudly when entering the house wondering where everyone is. We are gentle with him. 

But now I'm wondering if he's going to be a long-stayer after all and I would not give him away because he can't be trusted, the alternative is the final trip to the vets. Have you any advice?


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Mercy1 said:


> But now I'm wondering if he's going to be a long-stayer after all and I would not give him away because he can't be trusted, the alternative is the final trip to the vets. Have you any advice?


get your vet to refer you to a feline behaviourist.


----------



## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

Good advice. It's got to be worth exploring every possibility before taking drastic action


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

As above.I have a ragdoll kitten ,11 months old now,who displayed aggression in a similar fashion ,but was more inclined to biting than scratching.I saw two behaviourists as his behaviour was so unpredictable and nothing I was doing was working.By just sitting and watching the behaviour patterns for around an hour,the second behaviourist ,also a vet,was able to advise how to handle the "trigger" area's to his aggression.He has come on so well with the help of the behaviourist,he is not perfect,probably never will be,but he is now a much happier,more even tempered cat.What is more important ,I now know how to react to any given situation which has helped greatly.Good luck it is well worth trying,and you have the support of this forum should you need it.I possibly would have given up with out the help and support of the good folks on here.


----------



## Mercy1 (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks for you comments.

I've never heard of such a person in Auckland, New Zealand being available for such help and even then, we are not wealthy people so we must look for a solution for ourselves. 

One thing we have noticed is that if we feed him his preferred cheap cat biscuits he will be worse. So we have a more expensive kind on which he seems calmer but he's less keen on them. Trouble is, he roams free and sometimes comes home with a full stomach. 

The other day before attacking the baby and his older cousin(15), he refused to eat the better biscuits and went without for two days, raiding the rubbish bin instead for chicken dinner discards. So last night we ditched that lot of biscuits and opened a new bag. He seemed to like them but then stopped eating and went elsewhere for his dinner. So I'm assuming that some neighbour close by is feeding his cat the cheap biscuits which Mister is raiding.

Foodwise, he will not eat raw red meat or many of the other treats cats usually like. He will eat cooked chicken and fish. He drinks water well, even though he prefers it from the tiolet bowl and we have to keep the lids down.

He had a go at my husband this morning who tolerates it well. I have a delicate skin so I get quite wary of him at times likes this.

I have a first aid kit I call the Kat Kit with bandages and antiseptic solution. My husband has a strange bump on his arm that has never really healed after a cat attack so I take every precaution now.


----------



## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

No idea where you living but NZ seems like a long way to go to get the help of a cat behaviourist???


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Mercy, I try to help people where I can, but .... how can I say this... behaviour issues can so easily be worsened if they are not tackled in the correct manner. If you were having minor issues with your cat, I would try to help you, but to be honest, I feel totally out of my depth with the problems your cat is presenting with. I would be petrified my well intentioned efforts back fired and left you (and him) worse off than you are now. 

I did have a look on the net and there are feline bahviourists in Auckland.

If you can't afford a behaviourist .... the best suggestion I can give is to buy a book written by a feline behaviourist and possibly see if that would help. But I really do think you have to make sure (for your sake and that cats) that his behaviour doesn't get worse when you attempt to try out new strategies for dealing with him. 

Another thing I would do immediately is to buy enough feliways diffusers to cover your home. They are not cheap, but they are the first step in tacking behaviour problems. If you google FELIWAY the website will tell you more than I can. 

All the best.


----------



## kathrynhhhhh (Mar 26, 2009)

I have a cat who would suddenly turn - took him to the vets and a course of painkillers helped him, something must have happened to him which he couldn't tell us, which made him unhappy. The vet also suggested Feliway as a plug in and spray and also some herbal tablets called zyclene which are calming. He is much better now but still can't stand to be touched near his tail/back. Good luck, hope you get mister sorted...


----------



## Mercy1 (Jan 17, 2011)

I guess I didn't realise that trying to alter a cat's behaviour would be nearly impossible without spending a lot of dough. I'll have a talk to hubby about it.

Here is a photo of Mister and Hubby in the bathroom. What a hoot!


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Mercy1 said:


> I guess I didn't realise that trying to alter a cat's behaviour would be nearly impossible without spending a lot of dough.


I dont think anyone said it was impossible without spending a lot of money. It doesnt have to cost anything *if* we know what were doing and are well versed on recognizing , dealing with and countering behavior problems. But as most of us dont know what were doing, we pay for professionals to guide us. Professionals come at a price. Aids like Feliway just ease and support the whole process, but also come at a price. I happen to think a couple of home visits from a behaviourist and a couple of feliway diffusers is a small price to pay for a happy well adjusted cat. Compared to the price of some commom feline health ailments, treating behaviour problems isn't that expensive. The hourly rate of a behaviourist is generally lower than the hourly rate of a vet. Many behaviour problems, left untreated, start to manifest in physical problems too.


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Mercy1 said:


> I guess I didn't realise that trying to alter a cat's behaviour would be nearly impossible without spending a lot of dough. I'll have a talk to hubby about it.
> 
> Here is a photo of Mister and Hubby in the bathroom. What a hoot!


That is not true Mercy,as I stated in an earlier post I had two consults with behaviourists.In total these visits cost around £100 ,not sure of the NZ equivalent, a small price to pay for the help I received.It is so much easier to help a cat to adjust when you know why it reacts in a certain way.It is all about knowing how your cat thinks and why it reacts as it does.A behaviourist will guide you through the why's and the ways to help.By the way if I had a cat with behaviour issues I dont think I would put myself in such a vulnerable position.


----------



## Mercy1 (Jan 17, 2011)

Well, we decided a simple vets visit would be the first step. 

The vet said that there was nothing physically wrong with him and she suggested we try him on pain killers for three or four weeks in case he had an old injury which was making him sore and out of sorts at times. 
We don't have his history so this could well be so. He had the first dose tonight. If it works then we could work out a regime of pain killers. 

She also suggested we have a small tantrum ourselves when he looks like he's thinking of attacking to make him think about it. A water pistol at hand (hubby always wanted to be a cowboy and this is his chance) and a large teddy bear which we could positively encourage him to take out his anger on.

The vet also said that a cat behavourist would be in order if after a month or so, nothing else worked.
Thanks again for all your comments, I do appreciate them all. Talking it through here on the forum was just what I needed to begin to try and sort it out.


----------



## Gem16 (Aug 5, 2010)

Hi there,
the thing that really stood out for me is that you said when you see the warning signs you eyeball him, daring him to try it? isn't that just like sticking a red flag in front of a bull? if he has a naturally dominant personality then he is just going to take that as a challenge?
and putting a washing basket on him is only going to make him angrier? cats aren't like dogs where you show them who's boss and become their leader, if you lower your eye contact and give more submissive body language it won't be a case of 'losing'
sorry if i have misunderstood but that was just my 1st thought

and as for attacking the baby, well, there are some cats which just do not like them and little kids, something could have happened in his past to make him hate them and for everyones safety it would just be best to keep them apart, as much as he might be gentle with the cat, it is not possible at that age to have the skills and understanding of when enough is enough


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Gem16 said:


> the thing that really stood out for me is that you said when you see the warning signs you eyeball him, daring him to try it? isn't that just like sticking a red flag in front of a bull? if he has a naturally dominant personality then he is just going to take that as a challenge?
> and putting a washing basket on him is only going to make him angrier? cats aren't like dogs where you show them who's boss and become their leader, if you lower your eye contact and give more submissive body language it won't be a case of 'losing'


I didn't pick up on this because I hate saying something I am not at least 90% sure of.... however I too *think* that "staring a cat down" is the wrong way to go. In fact you should be doing the complete opposite... half closed eyes... sleep eyes... turning face away from the cat.... yawning....

but again, short of getting my books out and spedning hours finding references to support this...

well....

I just know I wouldn't be staring down a dominant agressive cat.

OP, there are a LOT of cat behaviour books on the market, granted some are better than others, and some use different techniques than others. I really do think you would benefit from getting a good book and learning some basics on feline behaviour.

I also would NEVER consider long term use of pain killers to suppress a behaviour issue. Although some vets will do this (or prescribe tranquilizers) as it's often the lesser of two evils as many cats do get put to sleep when they have behaviour issues. It's treating the symptoms and not the cause.

I would get myself off to the library and I would be reading like mad!


----------



## Mercy1 (Jan 17, 2011)

Eyeballing him seems to work for the men in the household, I don't do it but I have used the laundry basket to give him some time out. He usually just crouches under it looking quite calm if a little puzzled. Is it boredom?

I usually just yell for hubby to come and get him, his skin is thicker than mine but when I'm home alone I'm always aware of what mood mister is in and will act a lot sooner to put distance between the two of us.

Sometimes getting out his mouse on a string acts as a distraction, wearing him out so that after a session he sleeps for hours.

The vet said yesterday that he wasn't an anxious cat, so those cat-calming sprays wouldn't make any difference.

I go to the library regularly so I will look up the books. Thanks for that.

I suspect that he was raised with dogs, the way he gazes at the ones passing in the street, sometime running to the door to get out to them, but I'm not getting a dog just to make him happy. He doesn't socialise with the other cats around us.

I think you are right about the cat and the baby. I shot this short video about ten months ago. It's on youtube.
YouTube - Books cat and baby.avi


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Mercy1 said:


> Eyeballing him seems to work for the men in the household, I don't do it but I have used the laundry basket to give him some time out. He usually just crouches under it looking quite calm if a little puzzled. Is it boredom?
> 
> I usually just yell for hubby to come and get him, his skin is thicker than mine but when I'm home alone I'm always aware of what mood mister is in and will act a lot sooner to put distance between the two of us.
> 
> ...


Mercy,

What your vet said about feliway not working for aggressive cats…. well this is where I sometimes don't like giving advice on here when the poster is also getting advice from other sources . Those giving advice start to disagree with one another, and give conflicting advice, and that's not good for anyone.

Feliway DOES work with aggressive cats. There's tons of literature out there to support that. And hardly any behaviourist nowadays will even start working with a cat until feliway has been used for a few days.

Quite frankly if this is the kind of dated advice your vet is giving you, personally I really would be looking for a vet far better versed in feline matters:. Because a vet in this day and age who doesn't know the benefits of feliway, well it's a bit like a dentist who doesn't know the benefits of fluoride.

I can't convince you that feliway works for aggression, and if you're just going to accept your vet's word that it doesn't…. then frankly I don't know why I'm bothering here. That's not meant in a nasty way , but look it at from my point of view, myself (and others) suggest feliway, you mention it to the vet, the vets says it only works for anxiety issues, you believe that. That just makes me think the best course of action would be to follow your vets advice. None of us can sing simulataneously from two different hymn sheets.

If you trust your vets judegment... then I wholeheartedly think he is your best source of help and support, and you can better focus on his advice instead of trying to use two sets of conflicting advice simultaneously.

Something else is confusing me here. Are you looking to rehome this cat or to rehab him?

This post sounded to me like you were looking to rehab him, but the youtube video says you are looking to rehome him.

Which is it?


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

kathrynhhhhh said:


> I have a cat who would suddenly turn - took him to the vets and a course of painkillers helped him, something must have happened to him which he couldn't tell us, which made him unhappy. The vet also suggested Feliway as a plug in and spray and also some herbal tablets called zyclene which are calming. He is much better now but still can't stand to be touched near his tail/back. Good luck, hope you get mister sorted...


As was suggested a few pots ago by Kathrynhhhh, what has your vet said about Zylkene? I have this for my dog but my vet was telling me about how successful this has been with cats that suffer with anxiety/stress/aggression.

Your initial post suggests that you are thinking of having him PTS which maybe a bit drastic. Personally I would be trying everything first before thinking of rehoming & certainly not taking him to the vets for a 'final visit'


----------



## Gem16 (Aug 5, 2010)

It is a really difficult situation and no one can say for sure what's going on without seeing it but do you think maybe he's picking up on YOUR anxiousness? i mean you say you call for your husband to come in which says that your uncomfortable which your cat will pick up on, he could just be taking the p*** to put it a bit frankly 
In his past he could have had some really horrible experiences which make him react him like that, it's possible he will never change and i really hope you will rehome him rather than put him down in that case, i don't think it's something which is awful, he looks like a nice cat and maybe just needs a different environment or someone more calm with him.

I really don't think it is that bad to be honest, he probably doesn't like the baby being around because it is 'his' house and i wouldn't trust any of mine around a kid for too long to be honest, so that is not a big deal just be sensible and keep them apart, as for randomly 'attacking you' well.. some cats are more unpredictable than others but i do not think by any stretch of the imagination he needs to be put down, please do not do that, i am sure there are many many many experienced owners who would take on such a cat including rescues!! I can't tell you how many cats i have seen come into the rescue i volunteer at for problems like 'serious aggression' and it was something the owner was doing which just wasn't going down well with the cat 

I would totally ignore him when he's in that mood, don't make a big deal out of it, i wouldn't put anything over the top of him or yell or scream or eyeball him, just be like ok your in a mood and remove yourself from the situation, but in a casual way. 
When we first got our lexi he was very confrontational with us for no reason, he would suddenly run out from behind the sofa and attack our legs with his hair up and growling, the more we took notice of it the worse it was, we completely ignored it, carried on whatever we were doing and he stopped the behaviour within weeks, obviously yours is a more advanced problem than that but it's worth a mention.
Good luck!!


----------



## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Totally agree Gem.If I eyeballed Meeko or gave him any reason to feel threatened,cornered or pushed in any way his behaviour became so much worse.Speaking with the behaviourists I learned all the trigger points to avoid and how to act/react in all circumstances.We now have a 90% better relationship and while i dont think he will ever be perfect ,he will do for me.All the hard work to get here has ,I think made me appreciate him even more than if these problems had not been there to start with.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Gem16 said:


> I can't tell you how many cats i have seen come into the rescue i volunteer at for problems like 'serious aggression' and it was something the owner was doing which just wasn't going down well with the cat
> 
> i wouldn't put anything over the top of him or yell or scream or eyeball him,





buffie said:


> Totally agree Gem.If I eyeballed Meeko or gave him any reason to feel threatened,cornered or pushed in any way his behaviour became so much worse.Speaking with the behaviourists I learned all the trigger points to avoid and how to act/react in all circumstances.


agree with both of you.

Shelters ARE full of cats with behaviour problems, but often the problem does lie with owners and is fairly easily fixed. Or rather, it might be fairer to say that the problem lies in the fact that the owners speaks a different language to their cats. Many cat owners are at fault by treating cats like mini humans. That won't work. They are not mini humans.

What we cat-loving humans see as as being nice and reassuring and loving (for instance) might be viewed by a cat as us being threatening and invading their space. I never used to have much success with rehabbing (socializing) feral cats ... then I learned one simple thing, stop looking at them and stop talking to them.... they want to be invisable, and my walking into their room and looking at them and saying "good morning lovely wee man did you sleep well last night" was about the worst thing I could have done, to say it is counterproductive is putting it mildly. Just by learning to ignore them, sitting with my back to them, then averting my eyes (or turning my body around) when they approached me... heck within a day or two these cats are practically begging you for attention. Almost yelling at you to "talk to me, look at me".

Many people will have noticed with cats when there is a group of people in your home and one of them doesn't like cats that the cats choose to go to that very person. I have seen this loads of times. My own cats do it too. The more of a "I am definitely not a cat person" a person is, the more my cats will jump on their laps and hang around their necks. A beahviourist explained to me that is because normal cat loving people look at cats and say "hi there, you're lovely" and basically in the cat world that is rude and uncouth. The person at the party who doesn't really like cats, ignores the cats, doesn't look at them at all, is totally disinterested so deosn't make eye contact with them and certainly doesn't oooh and ahhh over them. That is polite to cats. In the cat world that person is well mannered. So that's why the cats go to that person.

I have a friend who has helped me a lot with my fosters over the years, but a lot of them didn't like her, lol. She is VERY kind and VERY loving and I just knew that was the problem, she was too nice! But because this woman has had a few cats over the course of her life she simply wouldn't listen to me that had to start being a lot more standoffish with my fosters. When I finally asked her to humour me and start doing it my way (ignoring them a lot more, let the cat come to you and not vice versa) ... things have improved dramatically.

Also people fall into the trap (like the friend I mentioned above) of thinking along the lines of "well this is the way I did it with Tibby & Felix & Garfield and it worked fine with them and they were perfectly sociable cats".

Cats with issues cannot and should not be compared to totally balanced cats. You can compare them, by all means, but you need to treat them differently.


----------



## Gem16 (Aug 5, 2010)

Tje said:


> agree with both of you.
> 
> Shelters ARE full of cats with behaviour problems, but often the problem does lie with owners and is fairly easily fixed. Or rather, it might be fairer to say that the problem lies in the fact that the owners speaks a different language to their cats. Many cat owners are at fault by treating cats like mini humans. That won't work. They are not mini humans.
> 
> ...


I agree with all this, it reminds me of a cat we had in rescue called Charlie. Big ginger tabby about 7 years old, he had lived with a family his whole life but never wanted anything to do with them and when they tried to make friends he would get quite aggressive about it, anyway they eventually gave up and brought him in.
He was a really 'unique cat', he did not like to interact with you at all and if you attempted it in any way, he would come and bite your hand. By that i mean if you looked at him in the eye,even slowly blinking, he would casually walk over and bite you as if to say ' don't do that' 
He was difficult to rehome, he hated to go outside so was an indoor cat only which meant being a barn or stable cat was not an option, he did not like other animals so couldn't go as a companion. Basically your asking someone to take an indoor pet on with the chance your not be able to do anything with him and get bitten at random times! it did not look good and we were sad about it.
So one day a nice older man came, he liked cats very much but did not believe in molly coddling them, he wanted one around in his house cause he missed their prescence after his last 1 died, but he did not want one to cuddle and stroke all the time.
To cut a long story short he took charlie, for the first month he was there the man did not even look at him, he didn't speak to him or acknowledge him in anyway. Charlie was not scared of people at all, he settled into the house well and was apparently swaggering round on the 2nd day, but they did not interact together. If he passed him in the hall or walked in the same room, they ignored each other.
One evening after about a month, charlie suddenly laid on the sofa next to the man. It was the first time he had ever taken him self over to a person.
Fast forward to now, and they are living very happily together. They do their own thing in the day and every night charlie lays next to him while he watches tv, he will tolerate a 2 min scratch on the head, but apart from that there is not much physical contact, but they are company for each other.
My point to all this lol, is that if he had gone to a more 'normal' home where they wanted to do things with their cat ( which is perfectly acceptable of course) he would not have fitted in, he would probably come back for being aggressive and such like.
Charlie was extremely lucky to find the perfect home for him that just let him be what he was, and it made me realise that for MOST cats which have issues, there is a home out there for them which can deal with it, and sometimes it is just not with us, even if we have the best intentions in the world.
Charlie would not have done well with someone hands on and really loving and friendly, even though to us, that is the perfect owner, if this all makes sense? Sorry for going a little off topic but what Tje said was spot on about us cat lovers coming across as rude sometimes in cat language


----------



## 2lisa2 (Apr 30, 2010)

aww gemma 16 that was a lovely story i love a happy ending :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Gem16 said:


> Charlie was extremely lucky to find the perfect home for him that just let him be what he was, and it made me realise that for MOST cats which have issues, there is a home out there for them which can deal with it, and sometimes it is just not with us, even if we have the best intentions in the world.
> Charlie would not have done well with someone hands on and really loving and friendly, even though to us, that is the perfect owner, if this all makes sense? Sorry for going a little off topic but what Tje said was spot on about us cat lovers coming across as rude sometimes in cat language


I agree with you too -- and yes it makes PERFECT sense -- though maybe you have to have experienced all this to ??? appreciate it, to "get it" and because we're both in rescue, we see these things more often than the average Joe/Josephine does. Or someone like Buffie (who has been through all this with Meeko, is still going through this to a lesser extent and has had semi-tamed ferals in the past) can "get it" earlier than someone who has always had "normal balanced" kitties.

Some people (although in my opinion, very few people) can give the perfect home to _all_ cats. The cat we can give the perfect home to, depends on how we as people are. A cat with no "emotional issues" will fit in anywhere (within reason). But cat's with issues (behavioural/emotional) they need ... either owners who will leave no stone unturned in their quest to help that cat, even when that usually involves learning a whole new language from scratch. It's hard work. The only other real hope for them is when they meet the "perfect match" human, like Charlie did. Both types of humans are VERY few and far between.

I wish every potential cat owner had to sit down and read some "feline behaviour" books, and then get a test, lol, and only when they answer 80% of the questions correctly can they get a cat. A bit like the theory part of the driving test. 

OK, when I become supreme world leader this will be one of my (many! hehe) changes. Everyone must read cat books, lol, must buy feliway, must weigh kittens --- gosh it's going to be a longgggg list


----------

