# Collecting a KC registered puppy without the KC papers?...



## Conalex (Jan 4, 2012)

Hi all, new to the forum but no doubt I'll be spending a lot of time here when we've picked up our new arrival.

We've been looking for a Staffy for quite a few months now and have already backed out of one purchase as we weren't happy with how the puppy was developing.

We've since put another deposit on another pup which is now 6 - 7 weeks old and according to the breeder ready for collection. I've viewed the pup 3 times and I'm happy with how he's turning out. The sire to the litter is very well known and it was the sire's owner who'd recomended this litter to me due to the quality of the dam. The sire's owners are a very reputable breeder.

Anyways, the chap selling the puppies rang me today saying I could collect the pup now if I wanted. The papers haven't arrived yet but he's got an email from the KC saying that due to the Xmas break they're a little behind with things, he's forwarding this to me later. Apparently this also includes his Dam's unique id number. 

Despite seeing the pups three times for some dumb reason I never asked to see the Dam's KC papers or pedigree papers. He's told me that if I wanted to take the pup he'd give me a full receipt stating it's a KC pup with papers to follow. I can also see the dam's KC pedigree form. The problem is, even though he registered the litter online he says that he had to send the Dam's KC docs off. This worried me a little, is this true? I can't be sure but I think he said this was the dam's first ever litter when I viewed the pups for the first time...

I know I should just wait for the docs to come through but with the missus pushing me to get the pup sooner rather than later plus my own excitment it's difficult to wait. We originally put a deposit down on the first pup we'd decided against way back in October so it feels like we've been waiting forever for our new dog.

The breeder seems a genuine and experienced guy to me and he says it makes no difference to him whether I have it now or wait for the papers. But he does breed other dogs and has one other litter for sale at the moment from a different breed. With all the warnings about puppy farms it's hard not to be a little paranoid.

So basically after my essay is it true that the breeder has to send off the KC papers for the Dam to register the litter? Should I wait for the KC papers or is it safe enough to take the pup if you've only seen the KC Pedegree  generation certificate?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

It is all done on line now (if you want) and you can easily check up if the parents of your puppy are KC registered if she has had the relevant health tests on the KC site too.

There are zambillions of SBTs being bred, so if you do not trust the breeder walk away, I doubt the litter is of such quality that it cannot be met elsewherre.

Did you not sign a contract which should have laid out the terms of the sale, any KC endorsements, health tests, that the breeder will take pup back in case of rehoming, and that you would have the registration papers?

Maybe go to an Assured Breeder, they have to comply with these sort of things.


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## pinkpuppy (Oct 31, 2011)

I had the same issue when we went for the initial puppy we were getting in October.

The kc papers were not back yet and when I did a bit digging i discovered that the breeder had showed me the wrong bitch advising me it was the mum. When i called the kennel club i discovered it was a different bitch that was registered (they were different colours so knew she had made the 'error' or tried to pull the wool over my eyes).

The woman had been so lovely, and appeared very genuine and pleaded her innocence after the fact when we walked away.

I am sure it is not the same in your case but i would do lots of digging around to double check before taking any dog.

We now have our puppy, he was born 13/11/11 and we have all the KC documents home with him.

Edited to add the woman was part of the kc assured breeders scheme.


xx


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

The breeder is letting the pups go at 6-7 weeks? This would ring huge alarm bells for me - shouldn't really be younger than 8 weeks, 7 at a push but 6 weeks is far too young.


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## choclabwoody (Dec 23, 2011)

Hi
So how do you check to see if your dog is KC registered online, I seem to be going round in circles or chasing my tail?

The documents I have been given don't look like anything on the KC registered website apart from the 3 Generation certificate I think. Can't check either until I get home from mother's.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

McKenzie said:


> The breeder is letting the pups go at 6-7 weeks? This would ring huge alarm bells for me - shouldn't really be younger than 8 weeks, 7 at a push but 6 weeks is far too young.


Many people such as myself think 49 days is the perfect time to take puppies home and GDBS routinely let their puppies go at 6 weeks. So no alarm bells need to ring necessarily.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

choclabwoody said:


> Hi
> So how do you check to see if your dog is KC registered online, I seem to be going round in circles or chasing my tail?
> 
> The documents I have been given don't look like anything on the KC registered website apart from the 3 Generation certificate I think. Can't check either until I get home from mother's.


Health Test Results Finder

If you want to know if a sire/dam has had any KC/BVA health tests, you can use the attached link.

If you have a puppy from a reputable breeder you should receive the KC registration document (not necessarily the pedigree) to take home with you.

The puppy will be registered in the breeder's name, and they will sign it so that you can register the pup in YOUR name.

You can also ring up the KC to see if they have the information, quite often they will be processing it, but as most are off until 9 January, they will have a backlog.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Many people such as myself think 49 days is the perfect time to take puppies home and GDBS routinely let their puppies go at 6 weeks. So no alarm bells need to ring necessarily.


Really? Ok then, I had just always heard that 8 weeks is ideal as they need the extra time with their litter to help with bite inhibition etc.


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## Autaven (Dec 10, 2011)

Personally I would also say that 6-7 weeks would ring alarm bells. A lot of people I know are now saying that 8 weeks is too young, that 12 weeks is the preferred time.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Autaven said:


> Personally I would also say that 6-7 weeks would ring alarm bells. A lot of people I know are now saying that 8 weeks is too young, that 12 weeks is the preferred time.


I believe that it is breed dependent, with many toy breeds leaving later than large breeds.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Autaven said:


> Personally I would also say that 6-7 weeks would ring alarm bells. A lot of people I know are now saying that 8 weeks is too young, that 12 weeks is the preferred time.


Well good luck on finding any breeder of large to giant breeds keeping their puppies until 12 weeks!

Not only would they cost more , in terms of feeding, but they would drive their dam nuts, wreck the house and lose out on valuable socialisation as a breeder is hardly going to have the time to take 6 - 10 puppies out every day!


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## Conalex (Jan 4, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Many people such as myself think 49 days is the perfect time to take puppies home and GDBS routinely let their puppies go at 6 weeks. So no alarm bells need to ring necessarily.


Yeah I'm not too concerned about the 6 week thing....



choclabwoody said:


> Hi
> So how do you check to see if your dog is KC registered online, I seem to be going round in circles or chasing my tail?


I want to know this too if anybody knows?? The breeder has just emailed me the pups KC name, the Dam's KC name and ID number so i can check with the KC myself tomorrow. I was hoping to do some checks online now....



pinkpuppy said:


> I had the same issue when we went for the initial puppy we were getting in October.
> 
> The kc papers were not back yet and when I did a bit digging i discovered that the breeder had showed me the wrong bitch advising me it was the mum. When i called the kennel club i discovered it was a different bitch that was registered (they were different colours so knew she had made the 'error' or tried to pull the wool over my eyes).


Hmmmm, thanks for that pinkpuppy. That's made me think a little as it's reminded me of something. As the breeder has quite a few dogs, not just the ones he's selling at the moment, when we visit he tends to bring the pups inside from the kennels outside. The first time we visited he also brought the Dam in with him who clearly had not long given birth. On the third time we visited there was a a Staffy bitch outside wagging her tale through the patio window who the pups were barking at, she also had not long gave birth.

I didn't think much of it at the time but I had to ask if that was the same bitch as she didn't look how I remembered. Nothing major like colour or anything but her eyes looked slightly different. No major I thought as I'd probably just remembered her wrong.

Now that you've said that about what happended to you I can't help but be paranoid.

Buying a puppy is so damned difficult. If I just wanted a pet I'd get a rescue dog but we all have breeds we like and if I'm paying good money I want a good pedigree/example of the breed. When I was younger I used to buy and sell cars and wouldn't think twice about walking away from a car if I thought something was up, it's just sooooo much more difficult when it's a cute little puppy you're desperate to take home.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Call me sceptic, but I would never, EVER take someones word for ANYTHING when it comes to puppies. You should ask for proof of health testing, any titles on the parents, KC registration and anything else you might needs BEFORE taking the puppy. 

6 weeks is too young, dogs which are taken away from their parents too young often suffer from bite inhibition and struggle when bonding to their family members in the future. Some good breeders will let the puppies go at 7 weeks. You say they're well known, can I ask the name of the parents and the kennel name? This might provide some legitimacy to their claims.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dober said:


> Call me sceptic, but I would never, EVER take someones word for ANYTHING when it comes to puppies. You should ask for proof of health testing, any titles on the parents, KC registration and anything else you might needs BEFORE taking the puppy.
> 
> 6 weeks is too young, dogs which are taken away from their parents too young often suffer from bite inhibition and struggle when bonding to their family members in the future. Some good breeders will let the puppies go at 7 weeks. You say they're well known, can I ask the name and breed of the parents? This might provide some legitimacy to their claims.


I agree, I would never take a puppy without all the paperwork but I would have done my research properly first.

However very young puppies do not suffer from bite inhibition, they may suffer from LACK of it of course. 

And if puppies aged 6 weeks struggled to bond to their family members in the future, one wonders why the GDBA, Canine Partners etc do this?

They of course have DECADES of experience in what turns out the best assistance dog.

The breed has already been mentioned, SBT.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

This thread is not about at which age the puppy should come home!

Personally, I agree with Dober and would wait til I have the actual document in hand. Good luck


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

A puppy should really stay with litter mates and breeder until 8 weeks old to ensure its socially developing and its healthy. I am sure if the breeder keeps the pups till 8 weeks of age the papers will be back by then. 

I have not heard of sending the dam's papers in before.


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## Conalex (Jan 4, 2012)

Dober said:


> Call me sceptic, but I would never, EVER take someones word for ANYTHING when it comes to puppies. You should ask for proof of health testing, any titles on the parents, KC registration and anything else you might needs BEFORE taking the puppy.
> 
> 6 weeks is too young, dogs which are taken away from their parents too young often suffer from bite inhibition and struggle when bonding to their family members in the future. Some good breeders will let the puppies go at 7 weeks. You say they're well known, can I ask the name of the parents and the kennel name? This might provide some legitimacy to their claims.


The sire to the litter is Valgo Singin' The Blues, from Valglo kennels

See link: Valglo Singin' the Blues

The owner of the dam/litter as far as I know does not have a kennel name. I have the dam's KC name and unique KC ID number but can't find anything online o verify this, anyone know what I can do? I wanted to check her pedigree online if possible. Or can the KC confirm this to me over the phone?


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## Autaven (Dec 10, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Well good luck on finding any breeder of large to giant breeds keeping their puppies until 12 weeks!
> 
> Not only would they cost more , in terms of feeding, but they would drive their dam nuts, wreck the house and lose out on valuable socialisation as a breeder is hardly going to have the time to take 6 - 10 puppies out every day!


It's a good job Cavaliers aren't a giant breed then  That's personally all I've heard, but I've always gotten my puppies at 8 weeks so I've never actually experienced it. Anyway, back on topic..


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## Callia (Jan 14, 2009)

I think if you are happy with the breeder, the puppy and the owners of the stud that you shouldnt worry so much about the registrations not being available at the time of collection, especially as you will take a receipt stating that they will be forwarded to you asap. Sometimes it is just a case of breeders forgetting (much as they hate to admit it) and sending them off a little later then planned which over the christmas period could be an acceptable situation :biggrin: You can as others have said, check with the kennel club that the litter is being processed.
I would however not be taking him until he is at least 7 weeks old and be making sure that both parents have the relevant health tests, etc. Also check that his insurance will be in place


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

I had to walk away from a Lab puppy last year, so I understand how frustrating it can be. The sire was from a very well known breeder, and both dam and sire had been tested for all the relevant genetic diseases.

I visited the puppy three times and each time felt more uneasy over how reluctant the pup was to be handled. It clearly did not want to interact.

The 'breeder' (owner of the dam) cared only about the deposit, non refundable.

My point being: WALK AWAY IF YOU HAVE A BAD GUT FEELING.

There seem to be a few things niggling at you and personally I would say: trust your intuition!

Walking away from that Lab pup was the best thing I ever did, as a few months later I was told about a beautiful, lively 14 month old Lab in rescue. He's sitting beside me now


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Callia said:


> I think if you are happy with the breeder, the puppy and the owners of the stud that you shouldnt worry so much about the registrations not being available at the time of collection, especially as you will take a receipt stating that they will be forwarded to you asap. Sometimes it is just a case of breeders forgetting (much as they hate to admit it) and sending them off a little later then planned which over the christmas period could be an acceptable situation :biggrin: You can as others have said, check with the kennel club that the litter is being processed.
> I would however not be taking him until he is at least 7 weeks old and be making sure that both parents have the relevant health tests, etc. Also check that his insurance will be in place


No no no
I actually couldnt disagree more!! The majority of times, the papers to follow!! means the papers will never arrive.
My breeder of my 8 week old chinese crested puppy due to family illness had to leave the registration until later than she would like but it was all done and ready for me when I got there yesterday.
They also didnt shut completely for the christmas break they worked between christmas and new year according to my contacts.
I agree with smokey bear
walk away, find another litter
You already feel a bad gut feeling about this situ.

and just my twopence worth on the age situ, I do believe that 7 and a bit weeks is a fine age to go, taking into account fear periods etc
also in a case such of this with kennel bred dogs, the pup will get more from a household and socialisation situation that he is with mum and pups
JMO

Vicki


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## Conalex (Jan 4, 2012)

Ok, so I'm kind of having a melt down...

Since pinkpuppy said that about a breeder trying to dupe her I've got alarm bells ringing. This breeder, who also has at least one other litter for sale at the moment, also owns a male Staffy. He barged in on us after a fuss on the first visit. I remember the breeder saying how the pups would probably be similar to him, I remember thinking 'I hope not' as I'm not a fan of that kind of Staffy. he also had those French bulldog type eyes that bulge out, again something I'm not keen on.

I chose the pup I'm supposed to buying because the other dogs in the litter had these bulgy eyes I'm not a fan of. The breeder also commented on the fact that both he and the owner of the sire to the litter were surprised at the colours that the mating had produced. 

I don't know if I'm just being mega paraoid or maybe these pups don't belong to the parents they're supposed to belong to. I mean, how difficult is it to trick the KC into giving papers on dogs that aren't really KC dogs? A huge conspiracy I know...

I'm gutted to be honest. My girlfriend is ready to kick my ass as this will be the second 100 quid we've walked away from in deposits becuase I wasn't happy with the pup. She just wants a puppy regardless and thinks I'm being fussy.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

If you're having doubts then you should walk away IMO.

I'd rather lose a deposit than buy a puppy that you're not sure about which could potentially end up costing a huge amount in vet bills due to bad breeding.


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## pinkpuppy (Oct 31, 2011)

Sorry but it does sound dodgy to me..... especially the comment about being surprised about the colours - though i know nothing of that breed.

The lady I saw never showed me the mum with the pups... saying she liked to keep them seperate at 9 weeks old. I knew she had told me mum was black and she brought out a yellow bitch who had clealry recently had pups. I pulled her up for it and she insisted mum was yellow.

My call to KC they assured me mum was black.... according to which bitch had been registered. Now obviously the breeder insists she brough me the wrong bitch out. Which i don't believe.

I am 100% sure that fraudulent info has been given to the KC and i suspect it is more common that people think.

but i am only going my experiences, i am not sure what info breeders have to give the KC.

I hope i am wrong for you though xx


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## troublestrouble (Oct 19, 2011)

a receipt to tell you you will be receiving these paper? it's a bit of paper with some writing on, does it REALLY mean anything? how do you check that the dam really is the dam, i'd go with gut feeling and walk away again. if this is the 2nd time this has happened on this search are you looking in the right places for credible breeders??

good luck though, make sure you are completely happy with what you have, you're going to have him/her for a very long time hopefully


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

How about taking your girlfriend to see some puppies in rescue? She'll probably fall in love with one of those (like we all do with all puppies!) and forget all about the lost deposit money. Plus an adoption fee from the dogs trust £75 and they had lots of puppies last time I went. You've instantly made back the puppy money, the waiting times are much shorter, you're not supporting bad breeders and a puppy gets a great home 

Good luck finding a great dog for you anyway, whatever way you go.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Autaven said:


> Personally I would also say that 6-7 weeks would ring alarm bells. A lot of people I know are now saying that 8 weeks is too young, that 12 weeks is the preferred time.


I would not want a 12 week puppy. It would miss out on far too much with me at an important time. I cant imagine any good breeder trying to get someone to take a pup at 6 to 7 weeks though. 8 weeks is ideal but a few days earlier is fine.
Am I right that licensed breeders are not supposed to let pups go till 8 weeks.

I wonder why guide dogs put pups to the puppy walkers at 6 weeks - in fact I wonder if they still do.

Sorry, OP, a bit off subject. But if this has now happened twice are you quite sure you are not just taking fright and making excuses when it gets near to the time to get your puppy.


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## Conalex (Jan 4, 2012)

Thanks for the advice guys.

We have been to rescue centers before and I'd personally have no quarms getting a rescued Staffy if it wsas just me I had to consider. But our family have a lot of young children and with a rescue dog you can't be sure what kind of owner history they have or what their temprament will be like. Especially with the kind of morons the SBT breed attracts. 

We'd get to raise the puppy ourselves around young children and this would give me a lot more confidence in the dog. As it's turned out since we first began looking for a pup we've discovered we're expecting our first born. This is why the longer we leave it looking for a new pup the younger the dog will be when our baby is born. This is far from ideal and I'm worried it'll end up being years before we get our puppy as opposed to days...


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## Conalex (Jan 4, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Sorry, OP, a bit off subject. But if this has now happened twice are you quite sure you are not just taking fright and making excuses when it gets near to the time to get your puppy.


Definitely not, the complete opposite. I guess my concerns all stem from a SBT I had with an ex partner many years ago. Last of the litter and an impulse buy. He was KC registered but you wouldn't have thought so the way he turned out. A cracking dog with the most loving nature but look sod all like a SBT. He lives in Ibiza now with my ex, I only get to see him on Facebook 

I think this has made me all the more wary this time round. The first dog I walked away from I was concerned about size. I was only confident in this second dog because it was recomended by the reputable breeder that sired the litter.

I don't think one of my posts was posted earlier due to a spam check by a mod on my posts. Anyway, the sire to the litter was Valglo Singin' the blues from Valglo kennels, see link below:

Valglo Singin' the Blues


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Dont let her heart rule her head, i did and they are not always cute little puppies. My experience was much more extreme than ime sure yours is but i was way too trusting and fell for a huge sob story and paid a huge price, not in money but emotionaly, if you have the slightest doubt/gut feeling then go with it.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I do feel for you and don't doubt you want to take the pup home asap. I think if I were looking for a pup at the mo I would probably go to Champdogs forum and see what they have on there. If good breeders didn't have pups themselves I would phone to see if they know of another good breeder who does. Most people know breeders who breed the same dogs and will often point you in the right direction. 

I would never buy from anyone who has a few litters, even of the same breed as I would question why they have bred so many and especially with Staffies as there are so many in rescue right now - surprised they are breeding at all. The president of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier Club of GB hasn't bred a litter in over three years because of the flood in the market at the moment! 

Good luck with your search and you should take a look at Champdogs anyway.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

Conalex said:


> Thanks for the advice guys.
> 
> We have been to rescue centers before and I'd personally have no quarms getting a rescued Staffy if it wsas just me I had to consider. But our family have a lot of young children and with a rescue dog you can't be sure what kind of owner history they have or what their temprament will be like. Especially with the kind of morons the SBT breed attracts.
> 
> We'd get to raise the puppy ourselves around young children and this would give me a lot more confidence in the dog. As it's turned out since we first began looking for a pup we've discovered we're expecting our first born. This is why the longer we leave it looking for a new pup the younger the dog will be when our baby is born. This is far from ideal and I'm worried it'll end up being years before we get our puppy as opposed to days...


Rescue centres often have young staffy puppies


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

If you are worried which it sounds like you are run for the hills. 

You need to find a breeder you're 100% confident in, if there's any doubt in your mind the sire of the pups is not who the owner has said it is on the reg certs then the reg cert will be useless. 

Best of luck.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Conalex said:


> Thanks for the advice guys.
> 
> We have been to rescue centers before and I'd personally have no quarms getting a rescued Staffy if it wsas just me I had to consider. But our family have a lot of young children and with a rescue dog you can't be sure what kind of owner history they have or what their temprament will be like. Especially with the kind of morons the SBT breed attracts.
> 
> We'd get to raise the puppy ourselves around young children and this would give me a lot more confidence in the dog. As it's turned out since we first began looking for a pup we've discovered we're expecting our first born. This is why the longer we leave it looking for a new pup the younger the dog will be when our baby is born. This is far from ideal and I'm worried it'll end up being years before we get our puppy as opposed to days...


I agree with what you have said about rescues, like you cannot be sure just what you are getting from a non reputable breeder its the same with rescue, we always say see the parents or at least mum, check health test certs then we go to rescues where we dont know anything about most of them, so with a young family i cant bleame you for been cautious.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Conalex said:


> Thanks for the advice guys.
> 
> We have been to rescue centers before and I'd personally have no quarms getting a rescued Staffy if it wsas just me I had to consider. But our family have a lot of young children and with a rescue dog you can't be sure what kind of owner history they have or what their temprament will be like. Especially with the kind of morons the SBT breed attracts.


Massive congrats on the pregnancy!

There are tons of staffy/staffy cross pups in rescue: you'd get to meet mum, which is frankly what you normally get here. Unless you are 110% confident in the litter you've seen, walk, £100 is nothing for peace of mind.

Look at this rescue, who have dogs all over the UK:

Dogs looking for homes - Many Tears Animal RescueHoming dogs across the UK

Edit: just looked through that site: there are a ton of puppies in! Poor lambs.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Congrats on the new baby!  

Just thought I'd add that there are lots of staff pups in rescue, and good rescues are EXCELLENT at matching personalities for their families.

If you definitely want to buy from a breeder, I would look for someone who health tests, titles their parents in conformation, agility or working sports and can prove their progeny. Even though you dont plan to work/show your dog, this is a way to sort the wheat from the chaff and, hopefully, end up with a well natured, healthy puppy.


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

I totally agree with those suggesting rescue - there are lots of very young Staffies just crying out for a caring new home.

I'm also amazed that anyone is breeding Staffies given how many of these dogs are being killed on a daily basis.


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## troublestrouble (Oct 19, 2011)

unfortunately this is the time of year to be able to get a puppy from a rescue so you can mold the dog into the sort of child friendly loveable mutt you want. might be worth a look between finding another breeder, one that you can trust and feel comfortable with


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