# Protocol: stud owners and visiting queens



## Rraa (Apr 15, 2008)

I have a queen but no stud so must take her to visit a suitable boy in the near future. Whilst making enquiries, I tend to find that what normally happens is that one pays for the mating once the queen is collected, upon receipt of a mating certificate. Is that correct? 

I have recently come across a stud owner who insists on payment up front, upon the queen's arrival. She will allow two repeat matings in case of no joy but I was wondering whether this is exceptional or is this just something I may not have come across before but that is still within the normal range of agreements. 

What do you stud owners out there think?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

In all the years I have owned studs/used 'outside' studs the former has always been the case. However, payment of the stud fee 'up front' does seem to be creeping in. I wouldn't say it was particularly common practice but I'm hearing of it every now and then these days. In absolulely no circumstance would I ever take a stud fee until I had witnessed successful matings and it would therefore be payable on collection of the queen. Neither would I ever consider using a stud where payment was required 'up front'. You're paying for a service (excuse the pun) and the stud fee should not be payable until that 'service' has taken place.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Like you, I take my girls to stud and have always paid on collecting them. I haven't made any enquiries elsewhere though so I don't know how other stud owners charge. I wouldn't be happy paying up front.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I dont like paying upfront incase the girl doesnt mate, but nearly all of those that I have contacted as for payment when the girl arrives. When I say that I always pay on collection, one lady said that she always took money first incase people didnt come back for their cat?!  We actually decided to use a different stud!

I always take money on collection of the girls, and I have witnessed the matings, I dont take extra for extra time they stay for, one girl stayed for 2 weeks as the owners live the otherside of the country, but some stud owners might ask for daily board if a girl stays over X amount days, some give you a term like 'you get 1 or 2 matings if this doesnt work' one stud I called said 'you get 1 mating, next mating is half price if it doesnt work' :huh: 

I think that alot of people make it up as they go! I dont give a certain amount of matings as I know how hard it can be with a queen going to stud, the travel the vet test, its all stress as it takes them out of call, it may take your girl 3 visits, by that time most people will have to pay another stud fee again! 

So I just think that it depends on the breeder as all seem to have different views and terms, so just go with what you are happy with, you may have to travel a bit further for the right boy, just remember to ask them if they are happy to keep the girl for a few extra days if she goes off call, also ask if the girl goes straight in with the boys, some breeders just put them in together, personally we keep them seperate for a min of 24-48 hours depending on the girl but they can see and smell eachother all the time so they can get used to eachother


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I wouldn't expect payment until collection and I always give a receipt. Silly as it may seem, I'd be quite offended by a demand for money up front but then I do come from a different age where breeding is concerned. Commercialism seems to have crept in to the point of rudeness.


> When I say that I always pay on collection, one lady said that she always took money first incase people didnt come back for their cat?!


Now that *would* have me heading for the hills. Who/what has she previously accepted to stud for that to be her attitude?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, thee are many breeders out there who are seriously broke, they might expect to have the stud fee by the time they collect their girl but then something else crops up so they need to call and make an excuse about why they can't come the day they said they would ... and then the next day and the next and the next ... yes, I could see that happening. 

Still, I don't recall ever paying a stud fee up front and certainly would never ask for one up front.

Liz


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## Rraa (Apr 15, 2008)

Thank you for your comments and replies. My own experience has always been that I take my girl to the stud owner, they monitor each mating (having allowed time for the queen to settle first) and upon collection of my girl and the mating certificate, I pay for the service. 

However, recently, I contacted a breeder - lets call her No 1, who said "Yes, bring her in, I shall give her time to settle - by the way, how experienced are you? ... I have lots of experience" this was all in a conversation and not as hurriedly as I am typing it here. In fact, I was sat down at her kitchen table enjoying a nice cup of tea, having shown her my paperwork and deposited my queen at about 5pm on a Monday in the nice clean quarters provided. 

Tuesday lunchtime, I was called at work by Breeder No 1 and asked to consider taking my queen back home as my girl was not calling. Obviously, the two hour drive had put her off call. I reminded the breeder that this is a maiden queen who had just had to go by car that morning to the vet for a snap test, plus another drive down to the stud, so would she kindly keep her a little longer. Next day, Wednesday, at lunchtime, another call, please can I collect my queen - so I did. My queen had stayed barely 48 hrs and as soon as she was out of the carrier back home, she was rolling on the carpet and yelling like a ships foghorn.

I then made enquiries with Breeder No 2 who requested money up front and said that she would allow two follow up matings in case of no pregnancy. She would impose no conditions upon the litter (whether they should be on the active register or not). I had another look and made some enquiries with other breeder friends who are more experienced than I am. They warned me off breeder No 2 for a couple of reasons, one of which was that one does not pay until one collects one's queen and the mating certificate. 

I shall therefore simply not reply to No 2 because I do not like her terms and feel slightly offended by, uncomfortable with and suspicious of the tone of her email. Whilst mine was a polite enquiry, my feeling was that hers was a little patronising and grasping. 

Least said, soonest mended, I shall let that one fall away into the ether and forget about it. I now have two possible new options for future visits with my little queen. Both will entail a longish drive but they are highly recommended and their boys are very handsome with excellent pedigrees, fantastic natures and they have sired lovely strong healthy kittens. :smile5:


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

How daft (not to mention highly inconvenient after a two hour drive for you) to send a queen home after two days. I'd think I was doing quite well to get matings with a maiden queen after 2-4 days of settling in.

Sounds like you've got it all sussed  Good luck with her.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

havoc said:


> I wouldn't expect payment until collection and I always give a receipt. Silly as it may seem, I'd be quite offended by a demand for money up front but then I do come from a different age where breeding is concerned. Commercialism seems to have crept in to the point of rudeness.
> 
> Now that *would* have me heading for the hills. Who/what has she previously accepted to stud for that to be her attitude?


This was quite a few years back, but I still remember it she said to me 'the reason we take money upfront is incase you dont come back for your cat' I said 'Of course I will come back??' She said 'Well my friend had someone bring a cat and they didnt come back and she had to raise the litter first them homes' I found another stud as I said!

I Found it all very odd, but when your starting out you dont know what to expect really, its all new and you think what you are being told is correct, I have paid upfront and lost my money, You learn from it though!

Thats crazy being told to pick your girl up after that amount of time, you need at least 3days for them to settle esp if its a maiden girly! I dont know why they say to pick them up so quickly? Maybe they forget what it was like being a new breeder with no stud at home? I know I wont!!


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## Rraa (Apr 15, 2008)

Yes, shame you had such a bad experience too, Taylorbaby! Glad that you chose a different stud - that certainly would have raised alarm bells for me.

As it happens, yes, I did say to Breeder 1 that my girl is a maiden queen but I think she had underestimated the time it takes for maidens to settle. plus, I think she mentioned something about having visitors over for the Easter break and now that I think of it, she probably wanted my little one out of the way. Perhaps she should have been honest and said she couldn't take her at the time - I could have taken her to another stud owner at that point. However, it's done now and we all learn a bit every day, don't we. :001_rolleyes::mellow:


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

havoc said:


> I wouldn't expect payment until collection and I always give a receipt. Silly as it may seem, I'd be quite offended by a demand for money up front but then I do come from a different age where breeding is concerned. Commercialism seems to have crept in to the point of rudeness.
> 
> Now that *would* have me heading for the hills. Who/what has she previously accepted to stud for that to be her attitude?


This is a huge concern within boarding Catteries the majority of boarding Catteries ask for either the amount of the boarding up front or a large deposit i.e 50% up front and the remaining balance on collection.

It is common practice to prevent people using you as a kind of guilt free drop of centre to give their Cats up, its not nice but it does happen, in their eyes to say they are a way on holiday means they can save face rather than go to a rescue centre and say they can no longer look after them.

I would imagine that from time to time this has happened with Stud owners, an owner fed up with a calling queen so just thinks I know I will leave it with a breeder they will be glad to have her.


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## Rraa (Apr 15, 2008)

That is an interesting argument and quite possibly may be true, unfortunately.

In my own case, it would have been very easy for the breeder to check up on me - indeed, she had visited my website and had she wanted to, could have contacted any of the people whose links are shown there, to find out more about me if she had any doubts. 

It is a shame that people can (and obviously do) do this to their queens. If I had to give any of mine up, I would at least contact people I know who can give them a good home and tell them the real reason so that, even though they may think of me as being wicked, at least my furkids would have a safe place. It would take something very serious - eg terminal illness / imminent death - for me to consider giving up any of my fur-children.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Rraa said:


> Yes, shame you had such a bad experience too, Taylorbaby! Glad that you chose a different stud - that certainly would have raised alarm bells for me.
> 
> As it happens, yes, I did say to Breeder 1 that my girl is a maiden queen but I think she had underestimated the time it takes for maidens to settle. plus, I think she mentioned something about having visitors over for the Easter break and now that I think of it, she probably wanted my little one out of the way. Perhaps she should have been honest and said she couldn't take her at the time - I could have taken her to another stud owner at that point. However, it's done now and we all learn a bit every day, don't we. :001_rolleyes::mellow:


Maybe its because they either forget as they have a stud how hard it can be with maidens, one of my girls took 5months odd actually mate, we lost on the first mating as they kept saying to pick her up after a day due to her not calling, but she was highly stressed in the car, that we paid upfront (live and learn) and they gave us the 'only 3 matings' 'rule' we decided to lose out and leave the 3rd mating, lose our money and find another stud, again our girl went off call for 2weeks we picked her up, then the lovely lovely guy said they will keep her, and they kept her for 6weeks and their stud got her on her first call there while she was settled and happy to mate with no car rides!! :laugh: yah!! Went on to have 5 lovely babies and be a good mummy 

They either forget or have maybe always had a stud, you have to give them time thats what I say, and not rush them just let them settle, it is extremly unfair of her to tell you to pick her up due to easter holiday!! What does that matter??  Arent the stud/girl kept seperate? or in their own house?

What colour is your girly? What colours are you hoping to get? I do love the lilacs and caramels!! :001_wub:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I would imagine that from time to time this has happened with Stud owners, an owner fed up with a calling queen so just thinks I know I will leave it with a breeder they will be glad to have her


I've never heard of such a thing and can only assume that if it happens at all it must be with breeds which are numerous and breeding queens easy to obtain. My only experience is with owners who miss their pets very much while they are away at stud and are desperate to have their precious girl back as soon as possible. Or maybe I have such a ferocious reputation that nobody would dare muck me about:biggrin:


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## Rraa (Apr 15, 2008)

Hi Taylorbaby! Thank you for sharing your experience on here. It was interesting to read because, it seems to me that you are right about some stud owners forgetting (or not realising, if they always had their own stud) that maiden queens may need a bit longer to resettle after their journey.

Good to read about the guy who was prepared to look after your girlie for a period of time until she called so that his boy could mate her upon the next call. That was a terrific service. Do you mind me asking where you are located (approximately - region will do)? I saw your gorgeous pictures of ragdoll kittens - they are sooooo cute!

Havoc - I also thought it was a strange excuse to say that someone might abandon their queen. Good to read about your possible fierce reputation -  - no doubt you are just looking out for the safety and welfare of the furbabies and I applaud that.  

I am in Buckinghamshire and breed siamese - blue points are my faves but I am happy to have litters of all the 24s (solid colours) or stripeys. Most of the quality studs I know of are about 2 hrs drive away from me. 

I wish you well with your breeding programme.


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## kitiara (Apr 9, 2012)

hi!

I gave only a few outside matings, but I worked like that:

Owner + queen comes to me, we check the contract
The girl stayes until she is mated, or min. 2 weeks. If there is no mating done, I´ll talk with the owner how to proceed.
When picking the girl, the first part is payed.
When she delivers, I do get a dedicated price for each kitten, limited.

So for example:
200euro when picking the girl up
for every kitten that reaches the 1.week, 100euro, limited to max 500euro (fixed price + "kitten")


Normally the catclub has in their rules how often a stud owner must allow the catowner to come for his money.

br,chris


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> 200euro when picking the girl up
> for every kitten that reaches the 1.week, 100euro, limited to max 500euro


Wow! I'd be rich if we worked that system here in the UK


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## kitiara (Apr 9, 2012)

The mating fee for studs is quite high in Germany and Austria - so 400-600euro are normal price.
But price for pets (vaccinated+chipped+neutered) is ~700-800euro here.
- Vet costs are quite high :-/

In 8 years of breeding I gave... 4 outside matings and was 2times myself (but one time abroad, and lost a lot of money because of travel costs, no kittens-died right after birth- and a neutered queen with emergency ceacerian)

br,chris


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Rraa said:


> Hi Taylorbaby! Thank you for sharing your experience on here. It was interesting to read because, it seems to me that you are right about some stud owners forgetting (or not realising, if they always had their own stud) that maiden queens may need a bit longer to resettle after their journey.
> 
> Good to read about the guy who was prepared to look after your girlie for a period of time until she called so that his boy could mate her upon the next call. That was a terrific service. Do you mind me asking where you are located (approximately - region will do)? I saw your gorgeous pictures of ragdoll kittens - they are sooooo cute!
> 
> ...


Oh he was great, he had cctv in his stud house! :mellow: so could watch them 24/7 he built the stud house all himself it was very impressive, very very big and lots of things to do, was really nice  Im in Essex! I love blues to, they have to be my fav, I really love the blue lynx (tabby) aswell


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

This is all really interesting to see how different people approach tjings. I would onlyvever pay on collection, but my biggest worry if I used a stud and didnt know the owner would be making syre they gave my girl back. Do you get any sort of paperwork to confirm you can collevt your girl? And does the stud owner have to have any insurance for visiting queens, or only take insured queens in case they got sick or stolen?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Having the visiting queen stolen would be my biggest nightmare, I don't have visting queens often but I do always breathe a sigh of relief when they go home!

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I think you either love stud work or hate it. It is a very heavy responsibility having someone's precious queen to stay but I do get to see the very best of them as a calling queen is always extra affectionate. It's also lovely when they go and my boy and I are back to our evenings together. He loves having girls in but he obviously loves having me all to himself again when they leave


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

flosskins said:


> This is all really interesting to see how different people approach tjings. I would onlyvever pay on collection, but my biggest worry if I used a stud and didnt know the owner would be making syre they gave my girl back. Do you get any sort of paperwork to confirm you can collevt your girl? And does the stud owner have to have any insurance for visiting queens, or only take insured queens in case they got sick or stolen?


No breeder I personally know has insurance for that eventuality and not one single queen I have taken into stud over many years has been insured. I think Tellingtails has a policy which covers such things but breeding for him, I believe, is run as part of his business.

There's generally no exchange of paperwork with regard to collection of the queen. Having a cat at stud/taking a queen to an outside stud is very much based upon mutual trust... which is why it's so incredibly important to choose carefully.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> No breeder I personally know has insurance for that eventuality and not one single queen I have taken into stud over many years has been insured. I think Tellingtails has a policy which covers such things but breeding for him, I believe, is run as part of his business.
> 
> There's generally no exchange of paperwork with regard to collection of the queen. Having a cat at stud/taking a queen to an outside stud is very much based upon mutual trust... which is why it's so incredibly important to choose carefully.


Thanks, that's definitely worth bearing in mind when choosing future studs!


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## kitiara (Apr 9, 2012)

Hi!

For me, there are conditions on the contract. Of course the girl owner does have this contract before comming to me.
So before the girl comes to me she has to be:
- scanned for HCM
- vacc. against catflu & feline panleukopenia
- either vacc. against leukemia or tested free
- checked against FIV
& for my race, checked for GSD4

--> there is info which girl comes to me when. That I do have the permission to go to the vet in case of emergency, otherwise I have to inform the owner first. In case of accident without my responsibe (for example stud has bitten her) I´m not to blame/ not paying, If I did not take care of her - for example let the window open, it´s my fault and I would have to pay.

br,chris


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## rcmadd (Feb 6, 2011)

the 2 outside studs we have used both wanted payment upon arrival


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## Rraa (Apr 15, 2008)

I would NOT pay upon arrival with my queen because the service has not yet been provided. I would pay upon collection once I had received a mating certificate. 

Flosskins raised the worrying subject of the risk of loss or theft of the queen and also the risk of whether she would be returned or not. I have never encountered this but cannot say that it never happens or that the risk doesn't exist. As GSkinner says, we have to be very very careful and selective about whom we entrust our queens to when we choose a stud and as LizWard says, it is a huge responsibility. For that reason I appreciate the care that stud owners provide whilst my girlie is visiting. 

I shall have to seriously consider insuring my girl specifically for stud visits in case she runs away, now. :001_rolleyes:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

And speaking of studs - we're off on Thursday morning  
I really wouldn't like the responsibility of having a stud and I admire those who provide that service for visiting queens.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

I have professional boarding insurance liability,malpractice and health insurance,it covers me and the owner for any Cat in my care. It covers things like accidental injury, ilness, loss through theft or straying, death cover, cover for the Cats whilst in transit. I pay extra for it to include things like Microchipping, grooming, stud work.

I do quite alot of stud work having four studs, I have my clients pay on collection they are provided with a video as proof of mating taken place, they are also given a mating gaurantee if it does not produce a viable pregnancy that they can return free of charge for another mating. They get given a reciept for the mating fee, a contract to say they can return free of charge. And they also get a mating certificate, and a copy of the studs pedigree.
Before females visit my studs they have to visit my Vet an appointment is made in advance on the day of booked visit 2 Hours before attendance for bloodwork tests, this cost is met by the owner of the queen. Providing the bloodwork is clear they are booked in to their individual Cattery next door to the stud the owners are also given a copy of our studs blood tests, so introductions can begin, they will stay with me anywhere from 1 Week to 2 Weeks and the owner is given daily updates, they also have the right to visit whenever they like without prior notice.

The insurance gives me great peace of mind and the owners of Queens peace of mind, I have never had to use it, touch wood I never do, however it is there just incase


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have professional boarding insurance liability,malpractice and health insurance,it covers me and the owner for any Cat in my care


There's no available equivalent for the non-professional. I suppose there is a small chance of me losing someone's queen but I do have decent stud/queens quarters with the appropriate double gate entry. 


> for example let the window open,


I assume this is an imagined scenario for someone taking in girls without specialist accommodation. I understand it can happen, especially if the plan is to have a boy sire a couple of litters and then be neutered and rehomed which I believe is a model used in Europe quite a lot. I'm not against it as a model but it isn't the norm here in the UK and I'd never leave a girl of mine with someone operating a stud service from a spare room unless it had been extensively modified to turn it into secure stud and queen quarters.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Times are definitely a'changing  Until recent years it was completely unheard of for stud fees to be payable when dropping the girl off at stud. I'm really not sure what this is in reaction to as I've never heard/known of any stud owner who has had a girl 'dumped' on them, never to be collected again (though I do know this occasionally happens to boarding cattery owners). I don't accept that as just cause for requiring the stud fee up front. 

And more and more people, as Havoc has said, seem to be keeping studs indoors as per some other European countries... not for me unless, as has been said, the accommodation was as secure as the best of outdoor. stud/queen housing should be. I'm sure there are a small'ish number of indoor kept studs in the UK where the 'set up' is great... but I'm afraid those people I'm personally aware of who keep a stud permanently indoors is a result of trying to do things on the cheap.

But perhaps I'm just getting old.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But perhaps I'm just getting old.


That makes two of us


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Hope you're not breeding that cat in your avatar! You'd need one HUGE stud lol


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Times are definitely a'changing  Until recent years it was completely unheard of for stud fees to be payable when dropping the girl off at stud. I'm really not sure what this is in reaction to as I've never heard/known of any stud owner who has had a girl 'dumped' on them, never to be collected again (though I do know this occasionally happens to boarding cattery owners). I don't accept that as just cause for requiring the stud fee up front.
> 
> And more and more people, as Havoc has said, seem to be keeping studs indoors as per some other European countries... not for me unless, as has been said, the accommodation was as secure as the best of outdoor. stud/queen housing should be. I'm sure there are a small'ish number of indoor kept studs in the UK where the 'set up' is great... but I'm afraid those people I'm personally aware of who keep a stud permanently indoors is a result of trying to do things on the cheap.
> 
> But perhaps I'm just getting old.


well thats only 1 person that I contacted many years back (who no longers breeds) I dont know about the many other breeders who accept it upfront, alot do, When I lost my money I paid upfront and I did ask her why she took money on arrival, and she said its just the way we do it, to a new breeder I just thought oh right ok.

I always ask now and I said that Ill pay on collection of the girl once their stud has provided the service and I have my paperwork etc No one has had a problem with that as thats how they did it anyway! :laugh:

TT - I also take pictures and video for proof of matings, paperwork has to be seen, health tests, pedigree, then I provide them with mine to, then mating certs and all the rest of it when girls are picked up, always say we are happy for them to stay as Ive been through it before with other studs saying 3day max! I do wonder what they think will happen when a girl needs a good 48hours just to settle down herself! But then everyone is different, Just depends on the person how they have been taught or want to do it?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Ive been through it before with other studs saying 3day max!



How do these people do it? All the years I've been doing this and I still can't tell in advance how long it will take a queen to settle in and exactly when the first mating will take place. Not every queen arrives at exactly the same point in call. Some are ready within hours of arrival, some need 24 hours or more to either settle or come into full call.

People do keep posting that their queen went 'off call' on arrival at the stud. Girls don't shout once they're with a boy, there's no need. I do wonder if inexperienced stud owners take the lack of noise as an indication that the queen isn't receptive when all that's needed is some settling in time.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

havoc said:


> How do these people do it? All the years I've been doing this and I still can't tell in advance how long it will take a queen to settle in and exactly when the first mating will take place. Not every queen arrives at exactly the same point in call. Some are ready within hours of arrival, some need 24 hours or more to either settle or come into full call.
> 
> People do keep posting that their queen went 'off call' on arrival at the stud. Girls don't shout once they're with a boy, there's no need. I do wonder if inexperienced stud owners take the lack of noise as an indication that the queen isn't receptive when all that's needed is some settling in time.


I have no idea!! When I choose to lose my money she kept calling the same night to pick her up? I Dunno whats wrong with people! I actually think those people were scammers, as they kept calling we picked her up she called went back, then thats when they said we only had one more go and had to pay them again, imagine if they did that to everyone? Double the stud fee each time  They no longer breed either thank god!

A couple of my girls still call when they are with a stud though!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> I do wonder if inexperienced stud owners take the lack of noise as an indication that the queen isn't receptive when all that's needed is some settling in time.


Definitely, you've hit nail on head there. That very thing has cropped up three times in conversations I've had recently where people have been asked to collect a girl after two days/a day because they had "gone out of call" - two were inexperienced stud owners, the other has had her own stud for 7 years but took in her first outside queen, as a favour to someone who lived locally; it seems she took the queen's perfectly natural, nervy behaviour/hissing during the first 24 hours as a sign that she'd gone out of call and might inujure her stud... she off she was sent, home!


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