# Question for M/C breeders



## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

As a result of a positive (homozygous) genetic test for PK Def I would be interested to know if you do genetically test your breeding cats for this condition, along with HCM, PKD and SMA?

If so, how long have you been aware the test was available and how did you find out about it?

If not, is the reason cost or something else?

At the moment I am assuming my breeder was ignorant of the test being available and am therefore willing to give her the benefit of the doubt but I would like to be in a more informed position to make this decision.


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## Nicholas86 (Feb 5, 2015)

huckybuck said:


> As a result of a positive (homozygous) genetic test for PK Def I would be interested to know if you do genetically test your breeding cats for this condition, along with HCM, PKD and SMA?
> 
> If so, how long have you been aware the test was available and how did you find out about it?
> 
> ...


You could contact the m c cat club and ask as well.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

The Coonie breeders I know test for everything mentioned.

I think it's really up to breeders to make sure they are kept informed. Used to be Yahoo lists now it's more Facebook with breed specific groups, info is very easy to find.

ETA many breeders began testing mid 2013 I was told. So it's been a while.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

HB, I will give Roman's breeder a call later for a chat and ask her about this, will let you know xx


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

sarahecp said:


> HB, I will give Roman's breeder a call later for a chat and ask her about this, will let you know xx


It would be really interesting to know.

We have a couple of UK M/C breeders that I know of on PF so I am hoping they will post later. Although I expect if they don't test, they won't post  and I'm really not trying to point any fingers just get a true picture as to the testing PK def situation amongst UK M/C breeders.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

huckybuck said:


> It would be really interesting to know.
> 
> We have a couple of UK M/C breeders that I know of on PF so I am hoping they will post later. Although I expect if they don't test, they won't post  and I'm really not trying to point any fingers just get a true picture as to the testing PK def situation amongst UK M/C breeders.


When I saw this post last night, I will admit I did think to myself that you probably wouldn't get much response simply because its a 'hot potato' topic.

I agree with Nicholas86. Try contacting the MC breed clubs to see if testing for this disease is being pushed. Check out the clubs websites (if they have one) to see if inhereted diseases are mentioned on there. I do feel that breed clubs really should pass this sort information on to breeders and strongly encourage testing. Having said that, being a member of 4 breed clubs and on the committee of one, I know that sometimes clubs can pussyfoot round issues like this


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> When I saw this post last night, I will admit I did think to myself that you probably wouldn't get much response simply because its a 'hot potato' topic.
> 
> I agree with Nicholas86. Try contacting the MC breed clubs to see if testing for this disease is being pushed. Check out the clubs websites (if they have one) to see if inhereted diseases are mentioned on there. I do feel that breed clubs really should pass this sort information on to breeders and strongly encourage testing. Having said that, being a member of 4 breed clubs and on the committee of one, I know that sometimes clubs can pussyfoot round issues like this


This is pretty much what I expected I suppose but I will do as you suggest. I just wish the breeders would realise that there are customers out there who would be willing to pay for the peace of mind that comes with testing. Not only because it actually saves us moneywise in the long term but also in heart ache as well.

I have already emailed a the breeder suggested on my other thread to see if she would provide me with some info as well.


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## Citruspips (Jul 6, 2011)

Tigermoon said:


> When I saw this post last night, I will admit I did think to myself that you probably wouldn't get much response simply because its a 'hot potato' topic.
> 
> I agree with Nicholas86. Try contacting the MC breed clubs to see if testing for this disease is being pushed. Check out the clubs websites (if they have one) to see if inhereted diseases are mentioned on there. I do feel that breed clubs really should pass this sort information on to breeders and strongly encourage testing. Having said that, being a member of 4 breed clubs and on the committee of one, I know that sometimes clubs can pussyfoot round issues like this


This is something I find very hard to understand (as someone planning to get a kitten) BYB are totally demonised (rightly so) but I've been doing loads of research about genetic testing and the overall promotion of health in kittens because, naturally, I want to increase the probability of getting a healthy kitten. Yet when I've asked questions replies are often vague or not forthcoming. I even ask a question on a FB group I'm a member of and got no answers just likes. No doubt if I'd asked about a funny cat characteristic, feeding regime, kitten care etc I'd have been inundated with answers. It's not just me anyone you asks about these topics on this group is left in the cold.

Seems to me there is an elephant in the room. Moggies are generally healthy as they are not often closely related. If we want a pedigree cat, or any other animal for that matter, surely we need a pool of highly responsible breeders who's aim is to promote health as well as good looks as the risk of genetic mutations being passed on is going to be greater.

For the average Jo, like me, it's very hard to get good information. People say word of mouth but who to ask? My circle of friends wouldn't know. Also as someone said on another thread the websites are not always very good at informing the prospective owner about the breeders own ideas and policies. Talk to breeders? Trouble there is what to ask with out offending, coming across the wrong way, who to trust etc ....oh it's a minefield.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

> Moggies are generally healthy as they are not often closely related.


They can be quite closely related and father-daughter, brother/sister and so on matings will happen. Natural selection will tend to weed out charactaristics that prevent a cat reaching breeding age or breeding, but not things like HCM that often only appear once a cat has started breeding, or after the natural life span of a feral moggie.

Not saying this is an argument against testing pedigrees, just that moggies are not a paragon of genetic health.

With reference to PK Def, from Langford:



> However, the anaemia may only be mild and intermittently detectable, or may not become evident until the cat is older.


PK Def presenting like this probably won't get reduced by natural selection and in general I suspect that natural selection won't reduce the incidence of or get rid of recessive genes.

Also some genes which are detrimental when homozygous might confer an advantage to a carrier. In humans the gene for Thalassemia is like this - carriers seem to have some protection against malaria - so natural selection will tend to increase the number of carriers.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Citruspips said:


> Yet when I've asked questions replies are often vague or not forthcoming. I even ask a question on a FB group I'm a member of and got no answers just likes.


If you go to a pedigree breeder and they won't answer you or don't answer in a satisfactory manner then you can at least move on to another breeder.



Citruspips said:


> Seems to me there is an elephant in the room. Moggies are generally healthy as they are not often closely related. If we want a pedigree cat, or any other animal for that matter, surely we need a pool of highly responsible breeders who's aim is to promote health as well as good looks as the risk of genetic mutations being passed on is going to be greater.


In fact the elephant in the room is the assumtion that moggies are healthier than pedigree cats and are less likely to be closely related. In fact the oposite is true its just that due to a lack of traceable pedigree means it is much easier for this myth to perpetuate. For example the vast majority of HCM is in fact found in moggies, not pedigrees. My own moggie (sadly now gone) was the result of a father/daugther mating, the father happened to also be the daughters half brother.



Citruspips said:


> Talk to breeders? Trouble there is what to ask with out offending, coming across the wrong way, who to trust etc ....oh it's a minefield.


It is a minefield, but I would say that any breeder who gets offended by being asked what they test their breeding cats for and how they rear their kittens is one best to avoid.


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## Citruspips (Jul 6, 2011)

Tigermoon said:


> I
> 
> In fact the elephant in the room is the assumtion that moggies are healthier than pedigree cats and are less likely to be closely related. In fact the oposite is true its just that due to a lack of traceable pedigree means it is much easier for this myth to perpetuate. For example the vast majority of HCM is in fact found in moggies, not pedigrees. My own moggie (sadly now gone) was the result of a father/daugther mating, the father happened to also be the daughters half brother.


Yes I take your point and, after a quick Google, have to agree that a well managed pedigree breeding program should result in healthy cats. I suppose it's the less well managed that is the problem, which seems to me, would be little better than inbreeding in a feral colony.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

I don't think it's just cost sadly. Using NFCs and HCM as an example , the RVC offer a very comprehensive heart screening which includes a scan, as part of their ongoing research into HCM in NFCs.

You'd think all the UK NFC breeders would be delighted by this wouldn't you, but no, they're still not scanning , even though it would cost them *nothing at all ! *

Not exactly "bettering the breed" in my opinion.

Sorry to use HCM as an example again , it is a disease I have strong feelings about as you know


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Tried to post my answer to this last night but I kept losing internet connection.

I will openly admit I did not use to test for SMA until the lovely Viv and Yogi thread on here and saw how much upset and worry Viv and Yogi has gone through, I will ensure I do test for SMA in future as I strongly feel tests need to be done for all parties to help ensure the health of kittens born and peace of mind for breeder and owner.

I have always tested for HCM, this is expensive in itself when you have the scans done, costs me discounted price of £268 per cat.

PK Def, I do have this test done now, when I stated breeding I was ignorant of all tests except a quick swab as this was the cheapest option, it costs a lot of money to start breeding and I will admit I only done basic HCM test to keep my costs down, I know I started wrong but I think when you improve and have tests done it does make you a better breeder and I am now proud of testing.

This will probably hang me as a breeder but I feel it needs to be said especially now. When I started breeding and only having HCM swab done I did breed a litter of kittens, all looked fantastic and no problems until 6 months of age when I got the dreaded call the kitten had died, it wasn't proved PK Def was the reason but going by all the signs we did come to the conclusion that this was the most likely reason.

If you go on Langfords Genetic List, each breed of cat is on there with a list of tests that should be done, HCM/SMA/PK Def.

I do feel very strongly that only tested parents with Negative results should be used for breeding and failing this no kittens should be allowed to be registered, but then I also feel every breeder should have a licence.

As a breeder you owe it to the cats and kittens to be born in top health, kittens don't ask to be born so if testing makes a more responsible breeder and ensures healthy kittens then this is better all round, yes it will be more expensive but breeding is an expensive hobby.


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## Felino (Jul 6, 2010)

All our breeding cats are tested for PKdef (first test done in 2013).


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## bingolitle (Dec 6, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> It is a minefield, but I would say that any breeder who gets offended by being asked what they test their breeding cats for and how they rear their kittens is one best to avoid.


Totally agree!

It is not _having_ a problem that defines a good or otherwise breeder - it is how it is dealt with once that problem is known.

A quick glance throught the Winterfyre GSDIV database (NFCs) shows you a dramatic reduction in cats testing as carriers compared to the earlier years. That's quite an easy one to breed out though - homozygous cats don't usually make it to breeding age at all, so carriers are the issue.

Once you know there is a problem and a test, surely morally you MUST test to avoid causing suffering to affected kits.

Or am I being a bit naive here?


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

catcoonz said:


> I do feel very strongly that only tested parents with Negative results should be used for breeding and failing this no kittens should be allowed to be registered, but then I also feel every breeder should have a licence.
> 
> As a breeder you owe it to the cats and kittens to be born in top health, kittens don't ask to be born so if testing makes a more responsible breeder and ensures healthy kittens then this is better all round, yes it will be more expensive but breeding is an expensive hobby.


I really wish this was the case. You have every right to be proud of testing CC and (after the event I know) I sincerely wish I had taken you up on your offer of a kitten


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Felino said:


> All our breeding cats are tested for PKdef (first test done in 2013).


Thank you for the info Felino. There are obviously responsible breeders out there I just wish you are easier to find.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Hun, Little H is a sweetheart, just think he is in the best wonderful home with you, anywhere else he may not have been so lucky.

I know it is hard for you and very upsetting but try and enjoy the bundle of fluff you have, he may well lead a long life but he has the best home where he is loved and that's all a kitten asks for. xxx

Plus my babies are zooming mad


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Cats cats cats said:


> I don't think it's just cost sadly. Using NFCs and HCM as an example , the RVC offer a very comprehensive heart screening which includes a scan, as part of their ongoing research into HCM in NFCs.
> 
> You'd think all the UK NFC breeders would be delighted by this wouldn't you, but no, they're still not scanning , even though it would cost them *nothing at all ! *
> 
> <snip>


If I bred Maine Coons how likely do you think I might be to trail all the way from Scotland (I'm nearer Dundee than Edinburgh) to the RVC? I'd need a couple of possibly unpaid days of work, accommodation not only for me but for my cats etc. etc. It would cost me, it would be cheaper for many breeders to go to somewhere nearer home.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> If I bred Maine Coons how likely do you think I might be to trail all the way from Scotland (I'm nearer Dundee than Edinburgh) to the RVC? I'd need a couple of possibly unpaid days of work, accommodation not only for me but for my cats etc. etc. It would cost me, it would be cheaper for many breeders to go to somewhere nearer home.


 It was an example of the fact that IF cost is an issue, testing is available for free! Let's not forget many breeders travel further , even out of the country, in attempts to add to their rosette and trophy collection !

In my opinion it is a breeders responsibility to test for all known issues in their chosen breed. If that involves cost to them, so be it.

My example related to NFCs anyway . There is no such program for Maine Coons.

Apologies if I have misunderstood you here. Your post reads oddly to me


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> If I bred Maine Coons how likely do you think I might be to trail all the way from Scotland (I'm nearer Dundee than Edinburgh) to the RVC? I'd need a couple of possibly unpaid days of work, accommodation not only for me but for my cats etc. etc. It would cost me, it would be cheaper for many breeders to go to somewhere nearer home.


That's why there are a number of clinics all over the country listed to do heart screening for HCM in ANY breed including moggies.



Cats cats cats said:


> It was an example of the fact that IF cost is an issue, testing is available for free! Let's not forget many breeders travel further , even out of the country, in attempts to add to their rosette and trophy collection !


Quite!



Cats cats cats said:


> In my opinion it is a breeders responsibility to test for all known issues in their chosen breed. If that involves cost to them, so be it.


I agree.



Cats cats cats said:


> My example related to NFCs anyway . There is no such program for Maine Coons.:


Yes there is, lots of MC breeders I know regularly scan their breeding cats for HCM as well as having the swab test done.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Cant seem to quote just one part of your post TM  Re Coons and HCM screening, I meant that there are no free programs available like that offered by the RVC  Not that I know off anyway


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Cats cats cats said:


> Cant seem to quote just one part of your post TM  Re Coons and HCM screening, I meant that there are no free programs available like that offered by the RVC  Not that I know off anyway


Ooops my bad  However this might be because the gene test is now established for MCs but is currently being researched in NFCs. That when vet schools are most likely to offer free screening. I suspect it will be withdrawn once the research is complete.


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## ALR (Apr 16, 2014)

This is going to be a very naive question as I don't know much about breeders but I've always thought one day I might get a Maine Coon. 

If a breeder doesn't test for PK def, for example, could the buyer offer to pay for the test if they've secured a kitten? It could be after the test the buyer might not want to take the kitten on, depending on the test results but what if they are prepared to pay for the test no matter what the results are?


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

ALR said:


> This is going to be a very naive question as I don't know much about breeders but I've always thought one day I might get a Maine Coon.
> 
> If a breeder doesn't test for PK def, for example, could the buyer offer to pay for the test if they've secured a kitten? It could be after the test the buyer might not want to take the kitten on, depending on the test results but what if they are prepared to pay for the test no matter what the results are?


I honestly don't feel the a buyer should have to firstly, ask if the kitten has been tested or agree to pay for any of the tests. If the breeder cannot produce the written results when selecting your kitten I feel you should walk away and find a breeder where the cats future health/welfare is priority not the profit in their pocket.  x


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Cats cats cats said:


> It was an example of the fact that IF cost is an issue, testing is available for free! Let's not forget many breeders travel further , even out of the country, in attempts to add to their rosette and trophy collection !
> 
> <snip>


The scan itself might be free at the RVC but by the time I've paid to get myself there and back it would be cheaper in both money & time to pay to get it done locally. My point is that 'testing for free' isn't necessarily as wonderful as it sounds, depending where you live.

If I had a breed where HCM scanning was an issue I would certainly get it done, but it wouldn't be worth my while going to the RVC because the scan was free.

Also I haven't met any breeders from London at Scottish GCCF shows, nor have I seen any such names in the catalogues.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

huckybuck said:


> It would be really interesting to know.
> 
> We have a couple of UK M/C breeders that I know of on PF so I am hoping they will post later. Although I expect if they don't test, they won't post  and I'm really not trying to point any fingers just get a true picture as to the testing PK def situation amongst UK M/C breeders.


Not had a chance to speak to Roman's breeder as yet, but do know that it wasn't something that Roman's parents were tested for as it wasn't one that was mentioned or that I saw. But doesn't mean she doesn't test now as I got Roman in Aug 2013.

It may be worth contacting the Maine Coon Breed Society and Maine Coon Cat Club, even if it's to make them aware if they don't already know. I'm a member of both so can dig out some contact details for you.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

ALR said:


> If a breeder doesn't test for PK def, for example, could the buyer offer to pay for the test if they've secured a kitten? It could be after the test the buyer might not want to take the kitten on, depending on the test results but what if they are prepared to pay for the test no matter what the results are?


I would have been more than happy to have covered the costs for all the tests within the purchase price of the kitten. I'd much rather pay a couple of hundred on top of usual kitten cost with a better guarantee of health than have to cover the cost later (and more) when the kitten becomes sick and needs treatment.



Soozi said:


> If the breeder cannot produce the written results when selecting your kitten I feel you should walk away and find a breeder where the cats future health/welfare is priority not the profit in their pocket.  x


This is where I made the first mistake - not asking to see the written proof (with Holly and her HCM) and the second was being unaware of the PKD test myself when purchasing Little H. If I knew about it I would definitely have asked about it first.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I wonder if it would give a better picture of the extent of testing if you email Langford and ask for a breakdown in their test results for PK def in Maine Coons. I have always found them extremely helpful in the past. At the same time you could ask how long the test has been recommended for Maine Coons.

Looking at the PK def page on the Langford website suggests to me that information about breeds other than Abyssinian and Somali has been added later. Since the Bengal and Singapura results are available, presumably by request, it might be very beneficial to Maine Coon breeders and owners to have that information in the public domain.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

sarahecp said:


> It may be worth contacting the Maine Coon Breed Society and Maine Coon Cat Club, even if it's to make them aware if they don't already know.


I've just sent an email to both clubs to ask what their recommendations are to their breeder members, regarding gene testing for HCM, PKD, SMA and PK Def. I've also asked if they do recommend testing, when this came into place and how did they let their members know.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> I wonder if it would give a better picture of the extent of testing if you email Langford and ask for a breakdown in their test results for PK def in Maine Coons. I have always found them extremely helpful in the past. At the same time you could ask how long the test has been recommended for Maine Coons.
> 
> Looking at the PK def page on the Langford website suggests to me that information about breeds other than Abyssinian and Somali has been added later. Since the Bengal and Singapura results are available, presumably by request, it might be very beneficial to Maine Coon breeders and owners to have that information in the public domain.


I will do - good idea QOTN.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

huckybuck said:


> This is where I made the first mistake - not asking to see the written proof (with Holly and her HCM) and the second was being unaware of the PKD test myself when purchasing Little H. If I knew about it I would definitely have asked about it first.


As has been shown by your other post, a lot of people had never heard of PK Def. If the club website doesn't mention the issue then I would suggest that the normal pet owner would be completely unaware it even exists. I bet most have never heard that cats can have DNA tests so wouldn't know to seek this information either.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

huckybuck said:


> I've just sent an email to both clubs to ask what their recommendations are to their breeder members, regarding gene testing for HCM, PKD, SMA and PK Def. I've also asked if they do recommend testing, when this came into place and how did they let their members know.


I've just noticed my email to you was sat in my outbox  sorry, now resent, hope you get it this time x


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

I've just sent an email to Langfords asking when the test was first available for maine coons and to what extent breeders have taken this up. I've also mentioned that on the list of genetic test available it is not immediately clear that the maine coon breed is affected by PK Def.

If I get any response from either of the clubs or Langfords I'll post.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

huckybuck said:


> I would have been more than happy to have covered the costs for all the tests within the purchase price of the kitten. I'd much rather pay a couple of hundred on top of usual kitten cost with a better guarantee of health than have to cover the cost later (and more) when the kitten becomes sick and needs treatment.
> 
> This is where I made the first mistake - not asking to see the written proof (with Holly and her HCM) and the second was being unaware of the PKD test myself when purchasing Little H. If I knew about it I would definitely have asked about it first.


Don't beat yourself up HB , the heart often rules the head anyway. I took my coonies breeder word re that she scanned for HCM and i accepted her reason behind not doing the genetic test. I never asked to see the HCM scan results so for all I know, she may never have scanned at all.

I have no reason to think that and I love the breeder of my coons very much, but just to say, you're not the first to not ask to see proof, and you won't be the last.

I made sure to see Ms parents PKD ( poly cystic kidney disease) results though , having decided to tread more cautiously this time around.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I think the majority of pet buyers don't have a clue about DNA testing, and some breeders take advantage of that. I make it very clear on my website that I test for everything going, and always have proof on hand to show new owners that the parents are tested for everything I've promised, and are clear. Not one of my owners, and all of them have been excellent, have ever asked to see any of the proof.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

It would be nice if the written proof/Results of any tests carried out be "offered" by the breeder I really don't feel a buyer should have to ask as a lot of people who feel they have built up a trust with the breeder asking for proof would make them feel very awkward.:001_unsure:


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

I do the tests for HCM, PK Def and SMA through Langfords. I also have scanned my breeding girls yearly for HCM at a cost of £400 a time each. However I will admit I cannot afford to scan my neuters as I would like as it is just too expensive. My 17 year old moggie has HCM and was diagnosed around 5 years ago. She has no symptoms and never had medication, she has a 6 month vet check and I look for any signs of changes.

I think it is a responsibility for breeders to test. However (and yes shoot me now!!) I think sometimes people put too much faith in the results of these tests and that it guarantees them a perfect healthy kitten. Many times there are adverts saying that kittens are guaranteed free of HCM etc and it is absolute rubbish. No-one can say that and they shouldn't claim it and in my opinion that is just as bad as someone not testing at all. Yes being free of that particular gene is a good thing but plenty of cats develop HCM (in particular) who are gene tested negative. Anytime you buy a kitten (or any animal) you take a risk. I lost a young girl a few years ago at 6 months (a potential breeding queen I brought from a well known and respected breeder) to I was told IMHA but could have been PK Def but I just saw it as being unlucky, I certainly didn't look to blame anyone for it (not that I'm saying you are HB). 

Last year two people had kittens from me whose previous cats had died suddenly (one confirmed HCM, the other not), both had come from breeders who scanned and tested. I always tell potential slaves that yes they are from tested and negative scanned parents but I cannot tell them their cat will never develop HCM or something else as it would be irresponsible to say differently.

I hope you get the answers that you want HB and that little H does well and goes onto live a long life. Hopefully now you know you can be prepared and look out for signs of trouble. Although I would be careful, Google is not always our friend x


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Soozi said:


> It would be nice if the written proof/Results of any tests carried out be "offered" by the breeder I really don't feel a buyer should have to ask as a lot of people who feel they have built up a trust with the breeder asking for proof would make them feel very awkward.:001_unsure:


Asking about tests is really one of the first things a buyer should be doing with a breeder in my opinion. Asking to see certificates/proofs at the time of a kitten viewing is just part of this and an owner shouldn't feel embarrassed, nor should a breeder feel embarrassed by this question being asked.

I was shown the PKD proofs when I visited the breeder of my Persian plus I received photocopies when I picked up my kitten, but I had asked about this at the time of first contact. Of course it helped that I was already aware that I needed to ask the question, and I think this is the crux of the matter.



chloe1975 said:


> Last year two people had kittens from me whose previous cats had died suddenly (one confirmed HCM, the other not), both had come from breeders who scanned and tested. I always tell potential slaves that yes they are from tested and negative scanned parents but I cannot tell them their cat will never develop HCM or something else as it would be irresponsible to say differently.


Absolutely. Although apart from costs, this is the most common reason I hear from breeders who refuse to scan


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It's not asking for proof any more than asking for a pedigree is. You're told your kitten is clear of XYZ, then you should see the paperwork to support that. I tell my new owners that their kitten is healthy, then expect them to query if, for example, I'd forgotten to put the health record in with the vaccination certificate. I've offered the written proof as well, but nobody's been interested in looking.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Soozi said:


> It would be nice if the written proof/Results of any tests carried out be "offered" by the breeder I really don't feel a buyer should have to ask as a lot of people who feel they have built up a trust with the breeder asking for proof would make them feel very awkward.:001_unsure:


I was shown proof from Roman's breeder before I got the chance to ask, but if she didn't show me I still would have asked her to see it. I had already built up a relationship with her quite a while before Roman was born and felt comfortable in asking her anything really.

But I know what you are saying about the feeling awkward, I know a couple of people that have gone to look at pedigree kittens and have told me after they've visited that it didn't feel right to question the breeder.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

chloe1975 said:


> Yes being free of that particular gene is a good thing but plenty of cats develop HCM (in particular) who are gene tested negative. Anytime you buy a kitten (or any animal) you take a risk.


Thanks for your response Chloe and it's good to know there IS another breeder out there who tests for everything.

I am not naive and I do know the issues with HCM testing and screening. I understand it is only one set of genes that they are testing for and there are many that can cause HCM (which is where the added benefit, but no guarantee, of screening comes in) however IMO it is, at least, just one less gene to worry about.

I agree that there you always take a risk when buying a kitten tested or not.

In terms of PK Def testing though, it is clear that negative cat will never have the condition, neither will a carrier but an affected cat WILL have it to unknown degree.

IMO if a test is available that means a particular life threatening condition can be avoided by careful breeding it should be done and if it had I wouldn't be in this position now.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

huckybuck said:


> IMO if a test is available that means a particular life threatening condition can be avoided by careful breeding it should be done and if it had I wouldn't be in this position now.


It is an awful position you are in now, is the breeder taking the kitten back?

I am curious why you've gone back to a breeder twice and recommended her to others when the other thread says you don't trust her, and that's why you tested for yourself. Why go through a breeder you can't trust?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

This had me looking into PK Def as I know there is an Aby (or possibly Abys) back in some Oriental lines - the cat I know is there was born in 1965.

What surprised me was finding that moggies are at more risk than many pedigree breeds.

BMC Veterinary Research | Full text | Erythrocyte Pyruvate Kinase Deficiency mutation identified in multiple breeds of domestic cats

(scroll down and click on table 2 & table 3)

Interestingly although some OSH have Aby in their distant background they seem to be one of the breeds at very low risk.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

spotty cats said:


> It is an awful position you are in now, is the breeder taking the kitten back?
> 
> I am curious why you've gone back to a breeder twice and recommended her to others when the other thread says you don't trust her, and that's why you tested for yourself. Why go through a breeder you can't trust?


My O/H wouldn't even contemplate sending the kitten back as he's grown so attached to him.

I was duped by a previous breeder when I bought Holly, saying she tested her cats for HCM. When I went to pick her up I wasn't happy about the conditions she was kept in which set off alarm bells so had her tested myself and I was proved right.

Although I did trust this breeder (and have not said otherwise in the other thread) saying she tested for HCM I decided to have Gracie tested just to double check (having been caught out before) She is clear for everything. When I got Little H I had him tested as a matter of course, honestly not expecting to find anything.

To be fair to this breeder she has never claimed testing for anything other than HCM of which both cats are negative.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

huckybuck said:


> <snip>
> 
> To be fair to this breeder she has never claimed testing for anything other than HCM of which both cats are negative.


Is she scanning as well as using the gene test? Unfortunately the gene test is far from 100% - cats that test negative can develop HCM and vice versa.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

She is starting to scan her cats as well now. We know the gene test isn't 100% and also realise that lots of cats can develop HCM pedigree or moggie (we had a moggie live to 16 years with the condition).

We choose to scan Holly annually ourselves since she is heterozygous and have done since she was a year old, she's just about to have her 4th in the next week or so.

Huck we will be scanning this year even though he tested negative, as he's reached the age of 7 and we feel all cats by this age should have a thorough check up, full bloods and a scan every year from now on.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> Is she scanning as well as using the gene test? Unfortunately the gene test is far from 100% - cats that test negative can develop HCM and vice versa.


That is because the gene test only identifies one or two specific genes and HCM is caused by many different genes. The gene identified in gene tests is probably the most common one found in the breed.

I know that current research going on in NFCs, Sphynx, Persians and, if they can get their act together, Birmans will be to identify more than one causative gene making the test more powerful, but there will always need to be scanning done too.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I do not have Abys myself but I am always perplexed by the assumptipon that all mutations that have been found in this breed first and then discovered in multiple other breeds must have originated in that breed. To me this makes no sense. It is the same with the CEP290 mutation which causes PRA in several breeds. It was identified first in Abys but since then it has been discovered it was in other breeds such as Siamese many decades ago. Surely the likelihood is that these mutations found in multiple breeds are far more likely to have originated in the domestic cat populations and transferred to the pedigree breeds in the course of development. (I wonder if the Persian PKD gene will ever be found in non-related breeds.)


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I do not have Abys myself but I am always perplexed by the assumptipon that all mutations that have been found in this breed first and then discovered in multiple other breeds must have originated in that breed. To me this makes no sense. It is the same with the CEP290 mutation which causes PRA in several breeds. It was identified first in Abys but since then it has been discovered it was in other breeds such as Siamese many decades ago. Surely the likelihood is that these mutations found in multiple breeds are far more likely to have originated in the domestic cat populations and transferred to the pedigree breeds in the course of development. (I wonder if the Persian PKD gene will ever be found in non-related breeds.)


Abys have been used in creating quite a few breeds - for some reason they seem to be popular outcross cats. Hence mutations which occur in them can get passed into other breeds. You might be right about mutations coming from domestics, but if we know that Abys have a high rate of mutation X it surely makes sense to look at breeds created using them?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Abys have always been a numerically small breed. They may have been used as outcrosses because of their moderate type but they were nearly wiped out in this country before Felv testing became the norm. Therefore it seems extraordinary if these widespread recessive genes came exclusively from them. 

Of course it makes sense to look at all breeds for evidence of disease-causing single gene mutations but it can be a mistake to assume these genes will have come from the abys alone. For example, because of this spurious connection with Abys, many breeders will refuse to test their Siamese and Orientals for PRA because they can find no Abys in their pedigrees. I expect the same assumption about PK def is made by Maine Coon breeders.


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## bingolitle (Dec 6, 2014)

The assumption that genetic disorders only occur in particular breeds is rather naive. Some do (GSDIV - NFC), some don't. Some don't get passed on even when they are there. For instance PRA in Abys - we know most NFCs have Aby/Somali in their background (poor old Raggen appears in an awful lot of pedigrees) and I don't know of any issue with PRA in NFCs.

Surely the logical thing to do - if you can - is test for anything and everything that is available.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

bingolitle said:


> The assumption that genetic disorders only occur in particular breeds is rather naive. Some do (GSDIV - NFC), some don't. Some don't get passed on even when they are there. For instance PRA in Abys - we know most NFCs have Aby/Somali in their background (poor old Raggen appears in an awful lot of pedigrees) and I don't know of any issue with PRA in NFCs.
> 
> Surely the logical thing to do - if you can - is test for anything and everything that is available.


The question is, at what point did the gene get corrupted and cause the disease. If in the case of Abys the corrupted gene started in one cat born _after_ the introduction to other breeds via outcrossing then the gene wont be present in those other breeds.

Having said that I know of people who swear blind that their lines don't have such and such disease lurking because they don't have any outcrosses in them. I am always staggered at such blatant 'head-in-the-sand' statements, because they simply cannot be substantiated.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

I haven't heard from either cat of the maine coon clubs but i have just had an email back from lngfords. I've copied it here and will add it to my other thread. It seems we have been incredibly unlucky by the statistics.


Hi, I'm sorry that you were shocked to receive a Homozygous PK Def result for your Maine Coon. We have been testing Abyssinian and Somali cats for PK Def since 2007. In 2011/2012 we were involved in a study to look at the prevalence of PK Def in over 14,000 cats from 38 breeds (a copy of the scientific paper is attached). This study showed the PK Def mutation to be present in many more cat breeds, including the Maine Coon. Since 2012 we have tested 841 Maine Coons for PK Def and found 628 Normal, 197 Carrier and 16 Homozygous. 

By testing for HCM, PKD, SMA and PK Def you have covered the main genetic diseases that we can test for in Maine Coons (we don't normally suggest testing for PKD in Maine Coons since it is present at very low levels in the breed).

Regards

Chris
_________________________
Dr Chris Helps BSc PhD
Senior Research Fellow
Head of the Molecular Diagnostic Unit
University of Bristol
Langford Veterinary Services
Churchill Building
Langford House
Langford
Bristol BS40 5DU

© 2015 Microsoft Terms Privacy & cookies Developers English (United Kingdom)


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

huckybuck said:


> I haven't heard from either cat of the maine coon clubs but i have just had an email back from lngfords. I've copied it here and will add it to my other thread. It seems we have been incredibly unlucky by the statistics.
> 
> Hi, I'm sorry that you were shocked to receive a Homozygous PK Def result for your Maine Coon. We have been testing Abyssinian and Somali cats for PK Def since 2007. In 2011/2012 we were involved in a study to look at the prevalence of PK Def in over 14,000 cats from 38 breeds (a copy of the scientific paper is attached). This study showed the PK Def mutation to be present in many more cat breeds, including the Maine Coon. Since 2012 we have tested 841 Maine Coons for PK Def and found 628 Normal, 197 Carrier and 16 Homozygous.
> 
> ...


God HB! That is seriously unlucky. that's 2% that have been Homozygous  Has Dr Chris given you anymore advice regarding symptoms?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Oh dear yes looks like you have been very unlucky 

Did they list what other breeds PK Def was found in? I'd be very interested to know if my breeds showed up.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Genetic diseases and cat breeds | Langford Veterinary Services

This is the breed specific page which actually I hadn't seen - I'd always gone straight to the test page (which does have a more comprehensive list of breeds affected when you go into the individual test).

List of Feline Genetic Tests | Langford Veterinary Services

There are a lot more breeds  listed than at first sight (Aby and Somali)

Pyruvate Kinase Deficiency | Langford Veterinary Services


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

daisysmama said:


> God HB! That is seriously unlucky. that's 2% that have been Homozygous  Has Dr Chris given you anymore advice regarding symptoms?


I'm so gutted to have been so unlucky (though hopefully this is much better news for you) DM.

I haven't asked for advice as there is a little on the PKD page and I'm not sure whether they could give me any more.


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

huckybuck said:


> I'm so gutted to have been so unlucky (though hopefully this is much better news for you) DM.
> 
> I haven't asked for advice as there is a little on the PKD page and I'm not sure whether they could give me any more.


Still hoping that little H will tick along just fine and live a long and happy life, there must be a specialist in PK Def lurking around somewhere, everybody has expertise in something


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Test results are always very interesting but of course they cannot show whether there are many lines with a low incidence or only a few with many affected. This is why I think it is so important to publicise these issues in the hope more and more cats will be tested.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I came across this info online. It would appear that UC Davies and Langford worked together to isolate the PK Def gene in breeds other than Abys and Somalis. This only happened in late 2012.

BMC Veterinary Research | Full text | Erythrocyte Pyruvate Kinase Deficiency mutation identified in multiple breeds of domestic cats


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=86FB3332FEEFC3F0&resid=86FB3332FEEFC3F0!158&app=WordPdf

Not sure if the link will work but the lab sent this research document as an attachment if anyone's interested…I think it's the same as yours TM.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

From what I can see in NL, the common tests for Maine Coons are HCM(DNA and echocardiogram), PKD, SMA , HD and Patella Luxatie. Not everyone tests for PKDef, from the kitten list, I'd say about a quarter.


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

I have not read the hundreds of replies (I'll add that disclaimer in now)

My views on screening for things and breeding is this - if you go to the great efforts to purposefully breed specific coat colours and looks of a cat to 'better the breed' then to not screen and breed to ELIMINATE the issues that breed has, is pretty hypocritical and even unethical.

Why moggies won't have the same specific issues as differnt breeds do (as in specific health issues in specific breeds) is becasue in the 'wild' or feral colonies - Darwins law dominates - - natrual selection - survival of the fitness and those with inherited disease will simply die out and won't continue to be bred from.

I've been pondering this madness lately with my persian - yes, he was bred well over dozens of generations in order to have a great 'look' and great temperament - but it's the result of this breeding that had made him with the flat face and all the issues related to it: he has chronic eye issues for one example.

How is that FAIR to the poor cat? 

I fail to see how this is ethical or 'ok'. Don't get me wrong, I love him to bits - and I was aware purebreds have issue and can end up costing more with vet bills. But I cannot get my head around the madness of 'lets breed cats to look like this' and yet it's doing so that often creates the long term health issues!

On my more cynical days, I can't help but see breeding as nothng more than one giant genetics experiment born of a seemingly selfish desire to achieve personal goals of 'looks' or 'standards' - when at the end of the day the poor cats don't give a toss if they 'look' pretty or win cat shows.

And I do NOT see that as being in any way 'better' or 'less selfish' than someone with a Moggie wanting to have a litter of kittens (that will be homed and have the right vaccinations and health checks).


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

Inherited disorders in cats | international cat care

This is a good link - probably been posted before no doubt.

They say why purebreds OFTEN (not always) have higher instances of these conditions is to the much smaller breeding pool. Which makes sense.


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## Citruspips (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks for the link, I've not cone across it before. I've just been looking at the section on HCM and the overview of genetic conditions.

It mentions a register!! I had no idea there was one, seems such an obvious and good idea.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

MightyMouse: I might be wrong but I do not really see extreme types at shows in The Netherlands. 

I do agree that if something is an issue with a breed, it should be checked no matter the cost (or choose not to breed). For eg. HCM in a British Shorthairs.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

MightyMouse88 said:


> <snip>
> the much smaller breeding pool
> <snip>


I live in a small village - population just over 2,000. Most of the pet cats are neutered, so I suspect the population of entire cats is less than 100. Yes, the odd tom will rove in from round about, but the next village is even smaller - less than 500 people and most of their cats will be neutered. There will be a few cats on the surrounding farms but there are not many of those either.

There are very few breeds with as few as 100 individuals in the UK, and the local unneutered moggies don't have anyone checking inbreeding coefficient as they set out to find a mate.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

MightyMouse88 said:


> but it's the result of this breeding that had made him with the flat face and all the issues related to it: he has chronic eye issues for one example.
> 
> How is that FAIR to the poor cat?
> 
> I fail to see how this is ethical or 'ok'.


Like many things in life, if you don't ethically agree with things then don't support it.

I don't agree with mixing wild cats with domestics, therefor I would never own a Bengal. 
I wouldn't find a breeder, purchase one then continue to moan in most every post I make about how unethical his breed is.


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## Dumpling (Feb 18, 2014)

MightyMouse88 said:


> Why moggies won't have the same specific issues as differnt breeds do (as in specific health issues in specific breeds) is becasue in the 'wild' or feral colonies - Darwins law dominates - - natrual selection - survival of the fitness and those with inherited disease will simply die out and won't continue to be bred from.


My semi feral has issues with her back legs, she is very, very cow hocked and walks in a rather odd way and I imagine she will have issues when she is older with arthritis etc. However, even though her legs cause her problems she can hunt and climb and I'm sure if she was still unspayed and living where she came from she would have had a litter already, possible with her father as the sire, and then what about her kittens?

Moggies, ferals etc can and do suffer from many of the same health problems as peds, for example HCM. At least in a pedigree population, as OS has pointed out, you can look at things like the inbreeding coefficient and if there is a problem of heritable diseases within that breeds then health tests can and should be performed. Moggies are really an unknown quantity when it comes to this.

Sorry for going off topic HB! It will be really interesting to see if the breed clubs get back to you on this and what they say if they do.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Well I've had a response from the Maine coon Breed Society if you can call it that!!!! They've not answered my questions at all so I will email back and ask if they will clarify. (My email is at the bottom).




The Maine Coon Breed Society and Maine Coon Cat Club have spent a considerable amount of time working together through the Maine Coon Breed Advisory Committe on our breeding policy, which has been with the GCCF for some time now, and has been approved by them, though we are not sure when they are intending to put a link to it on their website.

The breeding policy covers all major aspects of health of the Maine Coon, and recommends various tests that responsible breeders should undertake to ensure that their breeding stock are of the best possible type and health.
Kind Regards, 

From: 
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 7:20 PM
To: 
Subject: Maine Coon Breed Society and PK Def

Hi,
I have a question regarding the Maine Coon Breed Society's recommendations for gene testing.
Does the society recommend their breeder members test for HCM, PKD, SMA and PF Def? If so please can you tell me when these recommendations took place and how the breeders were notified of them.
Kind regards,


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Bottom line is when you pay a lot of money for a particular breed of cat and have emotionally prepared yourself and your home for your new kitten. It is not unreasonable to ask of your breeder that they have carried out all the relevent tests so as to at least assure you that your new baby has a healthy start in life! Any pedigree breeder that does not test should be immediately be ticked off your list! X


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## Citruspips (Jul 6, 2011)

Soozi said:


> Bottom line is when you pay a lot of money for a particular breed of cat and have emotionally prepared yourself and your home for your new kitten. It is not unreasonable to ask of your breeder that they have carried out all the relevent tests so as to at least assure you that your new baby has a healthy start in life! Any pedigree breeder that does not test should be immediately be ticked off your list! X


Totally agree but I guess the problem for both breeders and prospective owners is what tests should be given.

I expect as testing and knowledge moves forward it must be hard for breeders to keep up. Which is why my view is; some responsibility should lie with the various organisations that promote/support the breed in question. It does, sadlly, appear that this is not the case.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

It would be interesting to know how the breeders who DO test their cats found out about the available tests.

I think Felino said it was through checking Davies/Langfords labs, so not through a breed society or club recommendation  I'm not sure how Chloe or CC found out about the tests.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I go through Langfords and look under my breed of cats to see what tests they recommend. 

Never have the Gccf or MCCC mentioned any tests except HCM.

Until Viv and Yogi posted about SMA, I will admit I had never heard of that, so now I can improve my tests to include HCM/SMA/PKD/PK Def.

Must admit I thought PKD was Persians and not known in my breed, but to test for everything will bring me more peace of mind.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Langfords recommend for my breed HCM/PK Def/SMA.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

I must say I only tested for PKD because it has occasionally been found in maine coons, although only in a very low number, but then PK Def seems to be low incidence too..I think we worked out 2% of those tested are affected. I still think if a test can be done it should be even if "not recommended".


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

catcoonz said:


> I go through Langfords and look under my breed of cats to see what tests they recommend.
> 
> Never have the Gccf or MCCC mentioned any tests except HCM.
> 
> Until Viv and Yogi posted about SMA, I will admit I had never heard of that, so now I can improve my tests to include HCM/SMA/PKD/PK Def.


Thanks CC. I think it's quite sad that the GCCF, MCCC and MCBS don't seem to be promoting testing and it's left to breeders to to find out for themselves. Why aren't the breed societies and clubs, which say their policy is to breed for best possible type and HEALTH, doing more to push this. How on earth can breeders and pet owners become more aware if the info isn't getting to them?


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> Langfords recommend for my breed HCM/PK Def/SMA.


Well if you know about it from Langfords CC then any other MC breeder who are worth their salt should know too as I would have thought that Langfords would be well known to them for sourcing this kind of information. Breeders pleading ignorance doesn't cut any ice with me. The PK def test has been available for over 2 years.  x


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

We also test based on recommendations from langfords. 

There are a lot of breeders, including some very well known breeders who still don't even test for HCM as they believe that the test in itself is worthless and I have heard countless times breeders who say that research has shown that the prevalence of HCM is just as high in non gene positive cats than in those with the gene.

I began testing because it seemed the right thing to do, I wanted to produce as healthy kittens as possible. However as a researcher myself there do seem to be some holes in the research around HCM. When I looked into it there is no meaningful data around how many cats with the gene develop the condition and also although it is quoted by Davies that 30% of Maine Coons tested positive, that was a sample of less than 4000 cats worldwide (not all Maine Coons) and there seems to be little about where that sample came from ie were they sick already, volunteered etc? Genetics is a complicated issue and I am in no way very knowledgeable about it (there are other PF members who seem to know a lot more) but as well as risk of developing a disease you also have to consider that with HCM if it really is accurate that 30-40% are positive and all those are removed then what does that do to the genetic gene pool, surely you are then inbreeding more and thus possibly creating further issues down the line?

In terms of other diseases such as PK def or other conditions the incidence is pretty rare and if you are looking at a 1-2% risk factor or lower the chances are much higher that the cat is more likely to die or develop something else. Although I appreciate that is little consolation to that 1-2%. I just think sometimes breeders get a bad reputation when the majority are doing the best they can. 

I can see it from a breeder and buyers perspective as I have been both. As a breeder I have tried to make sure we do everything right and create as healthy and happy kittens as we can, which emotionally and financially has completely drained us over the years which is why we decided to give up this year. On the other side as a buyer would I buy from a breeder who hadn't done every test known to man, yes probably. Why? Because there are other things are just as or more important to me. I want to know that the kitten I am buying has been born and raised in a certain way, that the parents are well cared for and well loved and if I was happy with that, to me that would be the selling point not just how many certificates of health or champion titles they produce. I have to say that I agree most people probably wouldn't agree with that and perhaps because I suffer from a life limiting genetic disease myself I see things a bit differently.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Sadly the same sort of thing happens in dogs - the KC introduced an 'assured breeders' scheme to try to alleviate some fears that potential owners had / recover from bad press 

There are many thing you have to do to get on it - incl doing all the recommended health tests for the breed, being visited by an approver etc 

However, if you take Labs for example, all good breeders I know test hips, elbows and eyes - these are the known real problem areas. 

BUT to be an assured breeder, you only have to test hips & elbows  

Why??

Sadly some breeders are taking advantage of this loop hole and using dogs who either haven't been tested (which I'm suspicious of as you would generally have this done at the same time or before hips / elbows) - or have had less than ideal results (as they just not declaring this) 

Makes a bit of a mockery of the whole thing


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

chloe1975 said:


> There are a lot of breeders, including some very well known breeders who still don't even test for HCM as they believe that the test in itself is worthless and I have heard countless times breeders who say that research has shown that the prevalence of HCM is just as high in non gene positive cats than in those with the gene.


I've heard plenty of breeders say this but it is just an excuse to get out of testing tbh.



chloe1975 said:


> When I looked into it there is no meaningful data around how many cats with the gene develop the condition and also although it is quoted by Davies that 30% of Maine Coons tested positive, that was a sample of less than 4000 cats worldwide (not all Maine Coons) and there seems to be little about where that sample came from ie were they sick already, volunteered etc?


When creating a test they need both sick and well cats. With HCM my understanding is that all cats with the gene will develop the disease at some point in their lives but there is currently no way of knowing when that will happen. Some are very young (less then 2) others around 4-6 years and some can be over 9. There is no doubt that some elderly cats die of HCM but its just considered to be old age or something else. Some breeds show a particular age when those developing the disease seem to appear but it can occur at any age.



chloe1975 said:


> In terms of other diseases such as PK def or other conditions the incidence is pretty rare and if you are looking at a 1-2% risk factor or lower the chances are much higher that the cat is more likely to die or develop something else. Although I appreciate that is little consolation to that 1-2%. I just think sometimes breeders get a bad reputation when the majority are doing the best they can.


Are those breeders really doing their best if they don't test in a case with a recessive gene like PK Def which can easily be bred out? The time to strike to wipe out a disease like PK Def is when the incidence is at only 2%, not wait until it has reached 40% and nearly half the genepool is affected.


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## bingolitle (Dec 6, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> The time to strike to wipe out a disease like PK Def is when the incidence is at only 2%, not wait until it has reached 40% and nearly half the genepool is affected.


:thumbsup: Absolutely!

Like GSDIV, it's a relatively easy one to get rid of. So why on earth would you not?


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> I live in a small village - population just over 2,000. Most of the pet cats are neutered, so I suspect the population of entire cats is less than 100. Yes, the odd tom will rove in from round about, but the next village is even smaller - less than 500 people and most of their cats will be neutered. There will be a few cats on the surrounding farms but there are not many of those either.
> 
> There are very few breeds with as few as 100 individuals in the UK, and the local unneutered moggies don't have anyone checking inbreeding coefficient as they set out to find a mate.


The point I was making is - with moggies (feral or not) only those fittest to survive will -natrual selection occurs. Which avoids a lot of the ongoing issues


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

pipje said:


> MightyMouse: I might be wrong but I do not really see extreme types at shows in The Netherlands.
> 
> I do agree that if something is an issue with a breed, it should be checked no matter the cost (or choose not to breed). For eg. HCM in a British Shorthairs.


My fur baby isn't an extreme 'flat face' but will have life long eye problems seen in most Persians


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

spotty cats said:


> Like many things in life, if you don't ethically agree with things then don't support it.
> 
> I don't agree with mixing wild cats with domestics, therefor I would never own a Bengal.
> I wouldn't find a breeder, purchase one then continue to moan in most every post I make about how unethical his breed is.


I certainly won't be doing so again. It was a learning process for sure, getting my wee guy. I think most people looking to own a purebred don't deeply consider the bigger picture of the ethics behind breeding programs (other than researching a breeder who is registered) of the purposefully bred to have issue breeds.

And ultimately, the responsibility of the outcomes of all of this lies with breeders.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

catcoonz said:


> I go through Langfords and look under my breed of cats to see what tests they recommend.
> 
> Never have the Gccf or MCCC mentioned any tests except HCM.
> 
> ...


This is good to read,that you test for everything  I must admit I thought you were yet another breeder who doesn't test or scan as your website makes no mention of it


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

MightyMouse88 said:


> The point I was making is - with moggies (feral or not) only those fittest to survive will -natrual selection occurs. Which avoids a lot of the ongoing issues


Except that the fittest is the one that can pass its genes on efficiently, not the one that lives the longest and healthiest life. A cat with an issue that means it has a short and painful life still gets to pass those genes on. It doesn't give you a supercat. What you actually get when nature is left alone is a species that is very good at reproduction.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

chloe1975 said:


> We also test based on recommendations from langfords.
> 
> There are a lot of breeders, including some very well known breeders who still don't even test for HCM as they believe that the test in itself is worthless and I have heard countless times breeders who say that research has shown that the prevalence of HCM is just as high in non gene positive cats than in those with the gene.
> 
> I began testing because it seemed the right thing to do, I wanted to produce as healthy kittens as possible. However as a researcher myself there do seem to be some holes in the research around HCM. When I looked into it there is no meaningful data around how many cats with the gene develop the condition and also although it is quoted by Davies that 30% of Maine Coons tested positive, that was a sample of less than 4000 cats worldwide (not all Maine Coons) and there seems to be little about where that sample came from ie were they sick already, volunteered etc? Genetics is a complicated issue and I am in no way very knowledgeable about it (there are other PF members who seem to know a lot more) but as well as risk of developing a disease you also have to consider that with HCM if it really is accurate that 30-40% are positive and all those are removed then what does that do to the genetic gene pool, surely you are then inbreeding more and thus possibly creating further issues down the line?


The breeder of my coons was of the same opinion but she scanned so I could forgive that. Breeders who hide behind the gene test make me very mad to be honest.

HBs breeder tried to tell me their negative results were pretty an HCM free guarantee  she did not know when I enquired that I knew anything about HCM and clearly felt she could pull the wool over my eyes  ( I contacted her when looking for my second coon)

Sorry HB xx


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Cats cats cats said:


> The breeder of my coons was of the same opinion but she scanned so I could forgive that. Breeders who hide behind the gene test make me very mad to be honest.
> 
> HBs breeder tried to tell me their negative results were pretty an HCM free guarantee  she did not know when I enquired that I knew anything about HCM and clearly felt she could pull the wool over my eyes  ( I contacted her when looking for my second coon)
> 
> Sorry HB xx


I had already said in an earlier post that all my breeding cats are scanned annually as well gene tested if that was a dig! But I also tell new slaves that neither is a guarantee against HCM unfortunately.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

chloe1975 said:


> I had already said in an earlier post that all my breeding cats are scanned annually as well gene tested if that was a dig! But I also tell new slaves that neither is a guarantee against HCM unfortunately.


Sorry Chloe , it wasn't a dig at all. I know you scan too. I only meant to quote the part where you talked about the gene test and breeders opinions of it.

Re HCM scanning , I know it's not a guarantee , I was trying to put across that I believe breeders should do all they can, not just the gene test.

Sorry if I offended you x


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Cats cats cats said:


> This is good to read,that you test for everything  I must admit I thought you were yet another breeder who doesn't test or scan as your website makes no mention of it


To be honest I don't feel I need to put tests on my website, I build a relationship up with potential owners first, let them view the kitten then if I decide to continue and both parties are happy I then produce Active registrations and test certificates.

Same as I never place pedigree Certificates on my website, this can all be viewed at a later date.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

MightyMouse88 said:


> The point I was making is - with moggies (feral or not) only those fittest to survive will -natrual selection occurs. Which avoids a lot of the ongoing issues


It only weeds out things which would prevent a cat breeding. Hcm won't be selected against and probably not Pk def or PRA as they don't cause problems in young cats.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> Hcm won't be selected against and probably not Pk def or PRA as they don't cause problems in young cats.


Not entirely sure this is true.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> It only weeds out things which would prevent a cat breeding. Hcm won't be selected against and probably not Pk def or PRA as they don't cause problems in young cats.


Yeah quite right. A cat with HCM can live a pretty long life by which time how many kittens has it had? Even if it only makes it to four years old it will have had dozens of kittens in the case of a feral population. of those statisically 50% will have the gene themselves which the are also passing on.

PK Def being resessive can carry on in a genepool forever as a kitten needs to inhereit the gene from both parents to be affected, but if it has one gene it will be passing it on to statiscally 50% of its own offspring.

Not so sure about PRA as it causes blindness very young so feral kittens of this type are unlikey to survive.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

huckybuck said:


> > Originally Posted by OrientalSlave View Post
> > Hcm won't be selected against and probably not Pk def or PRA as they don't cause problems in young cats.
> 
> 
> Not entirely sure this is true.


Maybe I should have said "don't _often _cause problems".


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

There is more than one mutation causing PRA in Cats. Two forms (recessive in Persian and dominant in Abyssinian) cause early-onset blindness but the recessive form causing so much concern in Siamese, Oriental, Abyssinan and related breeds can be very late-onset indeed. Of those who go blind young, the earliest I have heard of was 2 years old at first obvious signs, so there was time even for her to have at least one litter, (she didn't,) but the oldest I have heard was a much loved neutered pet who first showed signs when he was 12, completely blind by age 13. The usual age will probably be between these two extremes. 

Only yesterday I heard of two domestic shorthair cats who have been diagnosed with this form of PRA, so it is definitely a danger in the non-pedigree population.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> There is more than one mutation causing PRA in Cats. Two dominant forms (Persian and Abyssinian) cause early-onset blindness but the recessive form causing so much concern in Siamese, Oriental, Abyssinan and related breeds can be very late-onset indeed. Of those who go blind young, the earliest I have heard of was 2 years old at first obvious signs, so there was time even for her to have at least one litter, (she didn't,) but the oldest I have heard was a much loved neutered pet who first showed signs when he was 12, completely blind by age 13. The usual age will probably be between these two extremes.
> 
> Only yesterday I heard of two domestic shorthair cats who have been diagnosed with this form of PRA, so it is definitely a danger in the non-pedigree population.


There is also time for a male with PRA to father plenty of litters before he becomes blind.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Plenty of time, Oriental Slave, and unfortunately we know this has been happening for decades in the Siamese and Oriental population and this could have been the case with Domestic Shorthair for even longer.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> <snip>
> 
> Not so sure about PRA as it causes blindness very young so feral kittens of this type are unlikey to survive.


The dominant kind (Rdy) does, the recessive CEP290 version is (relatively) late onset so they can have passed the gene on and died from another cause before it causes problems. Apparently there is also a recessive early onset PRA variety found in Persians and related breeds.

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/cat/pra.php

Progressive Retinal Atrophy (Persian) | Langford Veterinary Services


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> Apparently there is also a recessive early onset PRA variety found in Persians and related breeds


Thats why I've had all mine tested


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

And me. There's not many of us doing it yet though.


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