# why do people dock tails?/ cut off tails



## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

why?


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## Darkstitch (Feb 17, 2010)

So that they don't get thier tails torn or whatever while they're working I think.

Can't see any reason behind docking a pet dog's tail. Although constantly being whipped on the leg by a load of wagging tails can be annoying


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

It's no longer legal here unless the dog is working. It's done for either practical like some dogs wagg it too much or in working dogs cases and others for the look.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

It is only legal for working dogs (apart from Scotland where it is iilegal for ALL dogs now)

If you have a gun licence you can dock the pups of your litter....providing they are gundogs or alike (working only). But can a person tell if the pup will make a working dog when its only 3 days old???? Its so wrong.

I still find it appalling to be honest! They are many working gundogs over here (not UK but CI) that have full tails and there really is no need to cut parts of dogs.

These dogs go into extremely thick gorse etc and they come out fine. Some on the odd occasion have small cuts but the ears and legs have more than the tails in most caes of injury! 

Its a barbaric practice.....mutilating 3 day old puppies for our own purposes.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> It is only legal for working dogs (apart from Scotland where it is iilegal for ALL dogs now)
> 
> If you have a gun licence you can dock the pups of your litter....providing they are gundogs or alike (working only). But can a person tell if the pup will make a working dog when its only 3 days old???? Its so wrong.
> 
> ...


i agree....


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Working spaniels and terriers are the only ones who can be docked these days. Before it was either for tax a long time ago and they kept it up or just for looks for example the doberman was created after the tax was scrapped yet was still docked. It is a horrific thing though imagine ripping a puppy away from mum at a few days old and chopping their tails off for no reason


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

how long has it been illegal for? because there are LOADS of dogs round here with it


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Only a couple of years so any dogs older than about 4 years would probably still be docked . There's some that do it illegally or ship them to Ireland before the bitch is due so they can still mutilate them


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

It should only be done for working purposes or if the dog has damaged its tail.

Most of the time it's because what people think a certain breed should look like.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

whaleomelette said:


> how long has it been illegal for? because there are LOADS of dogs round here with it


Since 2006 i think?


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> Since 2006 i think?


Think it's probably closer to 2007/2008

I would google but I'm off to bed. Night all!


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

It's been banned completely here since 2001 - none of this 'working dog' crap. If there is a medical reason to dock later on, it can be done - but you need to have proof that there was a medical necessity. And if you have a tail-less dog that was born that way but of a breed that normally has tails, you need to be able to prove that it was born that way. 

I love seeing the waggy tails on the dobes and rotties and so on.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

ArwenLune said:


> It's been banned completely here since 2001 - none of this 'working dog' crap. If there is a medical reason to dock later on, it can be done - but you need to have proof that there was a medical necessity. And if you have a tail-less dog that was born that way but of a breed that normally has tails, you need to be able to prove that it was born that way.
> 
> I love seeing the waggy tails on the dobes and rotties and so on.


I too love seeing dogs with waggy tails!

I love the fact a lot of dogs now can be just dogs without the mutilation :thumbup:


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

what about dew claw removal- watching vids on youtube- its horrible to listen to the puppies cry. my dog had an ingrowing claw once which i hadnt noticed and felt like a a big **** about but its ok now i keep a close eye on them.
she was my first dog and i didnt even notice she had a claw there- some dogs dont do they?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

ArwenLune said:


> It's been banned completely here since 2001 - none of this 'working dog' crap. If there is a medical reason to dock later on, it can be done - but you need to have proof that there was a medical necessity. And if you have a tail-less dog that was born that way but of a breed that normally has tails, you need to be able to prove that it was born that way.
> 
> I love seeing the waggy tails on the dobes and rotties and so on.


I would prefer that much better. I love seeing them with tails and it has to be easier for other dogs to read them too


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

whaleomelette said:


> what about dew claw removal- watching vids on youtube- its horrible to listen to the puppies cry. my dog had an ingrowing claw once which i hadnt noticed and felt like a a big **** about but its ok now i keep a close eye on them.
> she was my first dog and i didnt even notice she had a claw there- some dogs dont do they?


In some dogs the dew claw is loose and it can actually be damaged and it is better to have them removed rather than have the dog in pain from it later on. Buster doesn't have them either


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## Terr (Mar 2, 2010)

I read somewhere that it was because back in the day when a lot of dogs were working dogs, their tails got in the way of things and could get hurt. So it was logical to dock them. I think the look just kind of stuck.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

They say that about rotties that when they were working cattle dogs their tails would be stood on but come on australian cattle dogs and many other cattle breeds have tails and are fine. It was for a tax as far as I know. Realistically how many rottweilers are working herding dogs these days?


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

whaleomelette said:


> what about dew claw removal- watching vids on youtube- its horrible to listen to the puppies cry. my dog had an ingrowing claw once which i hadnt noticed and felt like a a big **** about but its ok now i keep a close eye on them.
> she was my first dog and i didnt even notice she had a claw there- some dogs dont do they?


Dew claws-Yes, some breeds are prone to loose dew claws and i've seen them rip badly. I decided against having my litter done as Maya has hers and they are not loose, Barney had his removed but all the pups have had no problems with dew claws.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

March and April 2007 depending on where you live. Docking tails prevents rabies.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

hawksport said:


> March and April 2007 depending on where you live. Docking tails prevents rabies.


What??? That can not be true as USA and ROTW still has Rabies and they dock tails and crop ears


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Docking tails prevents rabies.


no it doesnt..


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I thought that was what the Romans believed and had long been disproven?


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

ear docking? omg wtf
rabies prevention? im not seeing that my self?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Ear cropping is even more ridiculous tbh and has been banned here for 100 years or so. But they'll argue that it prevents ears infections so should be done on all dogs


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

It might be banned but people are still doing it, and yutube are making it easier by allowing idiotic people to post a step by step vidio on how to do it....it's bloody horrible to watch....on one the couple did the docking and the ear cropping in their kitchen,,,having a good giggle whilst doing so....I appreciate that yutub can't controll everything any more because they're far too big now but there are loads of diy boch up jobs on there..I can't believe it still goes on even after the law was passed


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Thats sick and yes sadly people are still doing it


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## Terr (Mar 2, 2010)

hawksport said:


> March and April 2007 depending on where you live. Docking tails prevents rabies.


Your dobe looks amazing!!!!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Mutilating a dog (or any animal) for our OWN (other than medical) reasons is sick, twisted and barbaric!

Thats all i will say on the matter or i will get in trouble


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Thee's absolutley no evidence to suggest that tail docking prevents rabies...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

No but the Romans believed it no other proof


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Terr said:


> Your dobe looks amazing!!!!


The cropped one isn't mine she belongs to a friend.
Of course docking doesn't prevent rabies but that was one of the reasons for it.


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

May sound silly, but I think rotties and dobes look good with docked tails... however I haven't actually seen a rottie or dobe with a tail


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

The romans where very clever but in this case not very bright eh...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Pictures for you then:
Rottweiler








Doberman








They look much better


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Pictures for you then:
> Rottweiler
> View attachment 41151
> 
> ...


I think they look lovely


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

how cute is the dobe tail! it looks like a tea pot handle


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I prefer the rottie tail I still can't believe they're sort of fluffy


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

kaisa624 said:


> May sound silly, but I think rotties and dobes look good with docked tails... however I haven't actually seen a rottie or dobe with a tail


You may have seen one but not recognised it as a rottie....I have been stroking one for weeks outside the corner shop and at first i had to ask the owner because it looked alltogether different...it was a pup though so made it more difficult with none of the adult muscle etc.... I did feel a bit of a twonk for asking though....i was pretty sure but not 100%...they really do look great with tails....my aunts rottie has a tail too and it's bloody painful when he's excited lol


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

hawksport said:


> March and April 2007 depending on where you live. Docking tails prevents rabies.





hawksport said:


> The cropped one isn't mine she belongs to a friend.
> Of course docking doesn't prevent rabies but that was one of the reasons for it.


You may not believe it or you may worded it wrong but you put ''docking tails prevents rabies'' in your first post!

Also do you personally think its ok to cut the ears of a dog all for aesthetical reasons?


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

i personaly hav no problem with it as long as its for the right purposes...say one of those dogs got a real bad accident while out working ... this would and could have been prevented by tail dockin ...so yeh for the right purposes!! why not save a disastar and a dog in pain by doing it when they r little...ok not ALL the pups will go to workig homes but those who do could have been saved from a really painfull hapening


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> You may not believe it or you may worded it wrong but you put ''docking tails prevents rabies'' in your first post!
> 
> Also do you personally think its ok to cut the ears of a dog all for aesthetical reasons?


No docking does not prevent rabies but that was one of the reasons for doing it.
While I do like the look of cropped ears I do not agree with cropping just as I don't agree with castrating a dog for no good reason.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

staceydawlz said:


> i personaly hav no problem with it as long as its for the right purposes...say one of those dogs got a real bad accident while out working ... this would and could have been prevented by tail dockin ...so yeh for the right purposes!! why not save a disastar and a dog in pain by doing it when they r little...ok not ALL the pups will go to workig homes but those who do could have been saved from a really painfull hapening


The problem with this is that all working dogs have been docked in the past, so no one really knows whether tail injuries would be common, or rare in working dogs with undocked tails. Docking pups tails is painful - in fact there is evidence to suggest that new born pups actually feel pain to a greater extent than older animals. I don't believe than we can justify docking of working dogs tails with no evidence to suggest it is at all worthwhile. 
Would you chop a babies fingers off in case they get jammed in a door when its older? (ok i know its not the same but still..)


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Not all working dogs have been docked in the past, we allready know what damage is may occur in the field.Spaniel tail damage


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## mashabella (Oct 23, 2009)

yesterday i overheard a similar discussion in the vets waiting room ..a lady then said 'but how come they don't dock a working lab's tail too if it is for preventing tail injury?' 

can someone answer that? i am curious too.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Spaniels work in much thicker cover than labs do I think and whatever way they wag their tails it's easier for them to be damaged. What I don't get is why only the pointer is intact out of the pointing breeds? I get that the HPR breeds are expected to retrieve too but do they work in the same kind of cover and get the same kind of damage as the spaniels?


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I found this 



> The practice of docking some hunting dog's tails was done for practical reasons, if there is no practical reason, why dock at all? The Labrador has a thick, powerful and well padded tail throughout the full length, the Irish Setter and the Golden Retriever have long course hair for protection the Vizsla, GSP and Weimeraner have no such protection. There is also the question of the type of hunting done, the Labrador is the traditional retriever with the likes of lowland ducks where tail damage is unlikely. The Vizsla on the other hand hunts ducks on rivers and ponds; pheasants and quail through the rough; and even deer in dense bush.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Guess that answers my question thanks


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Not all working dogs have been docked in the past, we allready know what damage is may occur in the field.Spaniel tail damage


This is anecdotal evidence from - tbh- a biased source- no one knows how common this is, and if it is worth subjecting every working dog to tail docking to prevent it.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> This is anecdotal evidence from - tbh- a biased source- no one knows how common this is, and if it is worth subjecting every working dog to tail docking to prevent it.


It may be from a biased source but the injuries did occur.


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## hyper Springer (Jan 8, 2010)

My ESS has a docked tail..the breeder hunts\shoots etc...

According to the vet papers(certifcate type thing) he was verified as a working dog and the tail was docked at 3 days old...

I heard somewhere that at this age ther are llittle or no nerve endings in the tail(of couse this ould be [email protected])

He is a family pet and not worked at all....


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> Docking pups tails is painful - in fact there is evidence to suggest that new born pups actually feel pain to a greater extent than older animals. I don't believe than we can justify docking of working dogs tails with no evidence to suggest it is at all worthwhile.
> Would you chop a babies fingers off in case they get jammed in a door when its older? (ok i know its not the same but still..)


Couple of points...

Whilst babies may not have their fingers chopped off, I can tell you that ALL male Jewish babies worldwide are circumcised when they are just a few days old. 
It doesn't happen in a hospital, or under local anaesthetic. It happens in the babies home, overlooked by family and friends who have come to celebrate the act, and is performed by the local rabbi. It's literally a case of "pick up the tiddler, take a sharp blade, chop the end off (baby cries) and then use saliva to clean the wound".
There are no medical reasons for this at all, it's simply tradition. Should it be outlawed?

What's wrong with this picture?









Where are the tails?

Humans and dogs aren't the only creatures to be 'docked'. All spring lambs are docked when they are between a few days and a few weeks old. It's done with a strong rubber band, and the tail eventually drops off after a few days.

So, should we ban all docking? i.e. no more tail-less sheep, dogs or male humans or should we only ban the docking of puppies?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Years ago I was training to be a veterinary nurse & the practice I worked out carried out tail docking. The vets reasoning was that if he didn't do it then certain owners would find someone (less responsible) who would - not sure about that one though. 
As I was training I was asked to attend one surgery where 5 rottie pups were having their tails docked. I can assure you that they did feel pain. They screamed! It was awful - I was in tears & so angry with the owner. I wanted to drag her in & make her watch what her pups were going through just because docking rotties were popular (there was no excuse that they were working dogs). 
It was horrible & will always stay with me. I sort of feel guilty about being a part of it although realistaclly there was nothing I could do. I said afterwards that I would not be attending anything like that again & was prepared to leave if that was an issue. 
I thinks it's brilliant seeing all these breeds that would previously have had docked tails - it's lovely to see a wagging tail


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Years ago I was training to be a veterinary nurse & the practice I worked out carried out tail docking. The vets reasoning was that if he didn't do it then certain owners would find someone (less responsible) who would - not sure about that one though.
> As I was training I was asked to attend one surgery where 5 rottie pups were having their tails docked. I can assure you that they did feel pain. They screamed! It was awful - I was in tears & so angry with the owner. I wanted to drag her in & make her watch what her pups were going through just because docking rotties were popular (there was no excuse that they were working dogs).
> It was horrible & will always stay with me. I sort of feel guilty about being a part of it although realistaclly there was nothing I could do. I said afterwards that I would not be attending anything like that again & was prepared to leave if that was an issue.
> I thinks it's brilliant seeing all these breeds that would previously have had docked tails - it's lovely to see a wagging tail


Ohthat must have been awful for you....it's not something you should feel guilty about thoug, new job...you hve no choice but to do as you're asked, anyway....at least the poor little mites had someone who cared about tem to comfort them during the procedure. I think it's disgusting and something that should carry a heavy sentence...when a vet tries so hard and successfully saves a dog or a cats tail after nasty infetons, which can be done, there is no reasonably grounds or excuses to dock.
Clare xx


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Docking tails prevents rabies.


well i never heard that one before???


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## Cassies-mum (Jul 22, 2009)

Cassie is docked
(though she came to us at 9mo)
I wouldnt have docked the pups though never 

I think its wrong but what about dew claw removal? isn't that wrong too?

what about when dobes ears were cropped?  

All wrong!?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I found this


Interesting that they dont mention the spaniel, which also has a decent covering of fur, providing some protection.

What ive never understood is why they have bred a dog that goes through thick undegrowth, and wags its tail a hundred miles an hour. Seems rather impractical.

Used to be done for tax reasons too.



> Historically, tail docking was thought to prevent rabies, strengthen the back, increase the animal's speed, and prevent injuries when ratting, fighting, and baiting.[2] In early Georgian times in the United Kingdom a tax was levied upon working dogs with tails and so many types of dogs were docked to avoid this tax.[2] The tax was repealed in 1796 but that did not stop the practice from persisting.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

Years ago I took Ailsa to a protest about tail docking outside the Scottish parliament, her picture was in the local papers they wanted her to ''sniff the bandaged end of the tail and I had to shove some treats into the bandage to get her to go up to the woman in the costume.










It's also illegal to take a litter of pups from Scotland into England to have them docked.

Terri


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## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

I think its cruel and butchery to dock tails nowadays and theres no need for it


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dog injuries occur on a daily basis just with pets...

they injure their paws, their legs, their ears the lists goes on. Not a reason to chop of any of those bodyparts...

I dont understand why a dog is being worked in an area its not really suitable for if its that prone to horrific injuries. 
Dogs are bred to do certain things and they shouldnt be chopped into suitability...


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

hawksport said:


> No docking does not prevent rabies but that was one of the reasons for doing it.
> While I do like the look of cropped ears I do not agree with cropping just as I don't agree with castrating a dog for no good reason.


Thanks for answering that! I didn't realise how badly i came across last night  i have not been myself recently.

I personally do not like the look of cropped ears. But i understand how you can. I am glad we both agree with not cropping them though!


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

I have personally seen several injuries to the tails of working spaniels and I can assure you all that docking at a young age will be far less painful and traumatic than leaving the tail on.
Having said this, I do believe it depends on the kind of cover that the dog is likely to work, if it is gorse, heather or bracken then I can see no good reason to dock. If however the predominant cover worked is bramble then I believe it is in the long term interest of the spaniel to be docked.
Take note that I only mention the spaniel breeds, as I believe that this is the only breed that would suffer any significant numbers of injury to back up the need for this barbaric operation


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

The history of docking is full of old wives tales and lies.

Back in "the olden days" there were certainly people who believed that docking tails prevented rabies. Then came the thing about docked dogs were exempt from tax. I have heard that the long haired breed like the OES and poodle are docked to prevent flystrike!!

In the vast majority of cases, in the vast majority of breeds, docking is carried out purely for aesthetic reasons - because that is how the breed is "supposed" to look.

Now, having never been involved with working gundogs I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt. I do not object too strongly to the current rules, where only pups of certain breeds (like the springers) may be docked, and only when it can be proved that there is a high chance these dogs will be worked.

Of course, I also think it would be worth all the countries that banned docking outright doing some research over the next few years. We could learn from then whether undocked dogs really are more at risk of injury etc.

As far as "docking under 3 days causes no pain" and "nervous system is not fully formed" goes:

1) Docking cuts through not just a but of surplus flesh, but bone, muscle, tendon, etc.
2) Many pups show extreme adverse reactions from docking - inc screaming etc.
3) There is NO evidence whatsoever that neonates have less sensitivity to pain. In fact, the actually IS some evidence that because of the nervous system not being fully developed neonates are actually hyper-sensitive.


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## Cassies-mum (Jul 22, 2009)

what about dobes?
tails/ears were done when they were used for gaurd dogs so as they couldn't be grabbed? good choice/not?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Cassies-mum said:


> what about dobes?
> tails/ears were done when they were used for gaurd dogs so as they couldn't be grabbed? good choice/not?


how come gsd's were never docked then as they are used as guard dogs too?

i think the ear and tail cropping was more to give them a more scary image as they do look more intimidating cropped and docked...


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## Cassies-mum (Jul 22, 2009)

Natik said:


> how come gsd's were never docked then as they are used as guard dogs too?
> 
> i think the ear and tail cropping was more to give them a more scary image as they do look more intimidating cropped and docked...


yeah that was the point the image & practicality but was it wrong?  i think so


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Cassies-mum said:


> what about dobes?
> tails/ears were done when they were used for gaurd dogs so as they couldn't be grabbed? good choice/not?


It would be very interesting to see someone try to hold onto a dobermann by its ears or tail, I am sure they would be left in no doubt about the dogs disapproval.


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## Cassies-mum (Jul 22, 2009)

hawksport said:


> It would be very interesting to see someone try to hold onto a dobermann by its ears or tail, I am sure they would be left in no doubt about the dogs disapproval.


haha im sure the person would be left worse off ey


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

rona said:


> I have personally seen several injuries to the tails of working spaniels and I can assure you all that docking at a young age will be far less painful and traumatic than leaving the tail on.
> Having said this, I do believe it depends on the kind of cover that the dog is likely to work, if it is gorse, heather or bracken then I can see no good reason to dock. If however the predominant cover worked is bramble then I believe it is in the long term interest of the spaniel to be docked.
> Take note that I only mention the spaniel breeds, as I believe that this is the only breed that would suffer any significant numbers of injury to back up the need for this barbaric operation


As I am now the owner of a springer with full tail I can only agree with Rona on the docking issue of working spaniels. Alf is not worked and never will be, and I would say his tail is stratched and bleeding on average, once a week, sometimes its just a little pink from a stratch and at other times I'm getting the antiseptic wipes out. My boy is not and never will be worked, I dread to think of how damaged his tail would become if he was worked. Actually I know how damaged it would be, he would end up losing it.  The docking of working spaniels really should be allowed to continue, much as I love to see my boy with his tail, and that it grieves me to admit this. :crying: It really grates on me that I ever thought I'd see the day that I agreed to the docking of tails. But in this instance and I'm sorry for offending, but I do. :frown: :frown:


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

bird said:


> As I am now the owner of a springer with full tail I can only agree with Rona on the docking issue of working spaniels. Alf is not worked and never will be, and I would say his tail is stratched and bleeding on average, once a week, sometimes its just a little pink from a stratch and at other times I'm getting the antiseptic wipes out. My boy is not and never will be worked, I dread to think of how damaged his tail would become if he was worked. Actually I know how damaged it would be, he would end up losing it.  The docking of working spaniels really should be allowed to continue, much as I love to see my boy with his tail, and that it grieves me to admit this. :crying: It really grates on me that I ever thought I'd see the day that I agreed to the docking of tails. But in this instance and I'm sorry for offending, but I do. :frown: :frown:


It's not just the tail damage though but the real risk of infection, dogs have lost their lives because of this


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

rona said:


> It's not just the tail damage though but the real risk of infection, dogs have lost their lives because of this


Yep, hence the stock pile of antiseptic wipes.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Would it be kinder to start a programme encouraging thicker tails rather than cuts parts of 3 day old pups?


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Would it be kinder to start a programme encouraging thicker tails rather than cuts parts of 3 day old pups?


That's a very weird suggestion, how would you go about doing that?


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

rona said:


> That's a very weird suggestion, how would you go about doing that?


Haha! I have no idea! It was just something that popped into my head!

To be honest though, it can be done, people have changed things about dog breeds for years! And now for some breeds they are being changed again!


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Haha! I have no idea! It was just something that popped into my head!
> 
> To be honest though, it can be done, people have changed things about dog breeds for years! And now for some breeds they are being changed again!


Have you ever tramped through brambles for a full day? 
Sometimes even waxed leggings doesn't stop them


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

rona said:


> Have you ever tramped through brambles for a full day?
> Sometimes even waxed leggings doesn't stop them


Lol!! I fell into brambles once (before jumping on my mum's back:lol: i was 4!) ..running away from a cow that was loose and hellbent on destruction! :scared:

I think it was Clover? (we named all the cows we saw on our regular walk in the commons!  )

Anyway i do understand i was thinking in a different way! lol! In an ideal world their tails would be thick and well furred to prevent injury.


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## shutterspeed (Mar 23, 2010)

I quit visiting an American forum because of that.
They do it ever so often and I hate it.
They found all kinds of excuses to do it.
In Belgium it's illegal since 2006. Some people get dogs in Italy or such for that reason...
I have a Golden Retriever, I don't see the difference between a golden tail in the bushes or that of a cocker. Can't imagine her being trapped so badly she has to be rescued.

If one of your fingers gets in the way, do you cut it off?? Don't think so.

Docking is a horrible practice!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Docking tails prevents rabies.


Huh? How??


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Kinski said:


> Years ago I took Ailsa to a protest about tail docking outside the Scottish parliament, her picture was in the local papers they wanted her to ''sniff the bandaged end of the tail and I had to shove some treats into the bandage to get her to go up to the woman in the costume.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that is so cute lol


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

classixuk said:


> So, should we ban all docking? i.e. no more tail-less sheep, dogs or male humans or should we only ban the docking of puppies?


Personally I would be very pleased to see an end to sheep docking. it's not quite the same thing as docking dogs though because dogs use their tales to communicate in a way that sheep do not. A dog seeing a docked dog will read the wrong signals because the tail is not present.

As for male humans, it's not actually the tail they dock ....

Liz


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

lizward said:


> Huh? How??


Because another dog can't read a docked dogs body language so a dog that might have rabies will stay away from it.

It doesn't it was just one of the reasons for docking years ago.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

shutterspeed said:


> I quit visiting an American forum because of that.
> They do it ever so often and I hate it.
> They found all kinds of excuses to do it.
> In Belgium it's illegal since 2006. Some people get dogs in Italy or such for that reason...
> ...


The action and the coat on the tail of any Spaniel is markedly different to a retriever.
I have worked several retrievers with no problem at all, but they don't normally end up in the middle of a bramble bush quite as often as a spaniel.
Have you seen a spaniel work?


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Lol!! I fell into brambles once (before jumping on my mum's back:lol: i was 4!) ..running away from a cow that was loose and hellbent on destruction! :scared:
> 
> I think it was Clover? (we named all the cows we saw on our regular walk in the commons!  )
> 
> Anyway i do understand i was thinking in a different way! lol! In an ideal world their tails would be thick and well furred to prevent injury.


HaHa you away in your perfect world again   :lol:



lizward said:


> Personally I would be very pleased to see an end to sheep docking. it's not quite the same thing as docking dogs though because dogs use their tales to communicate in a way that sheep do not. A dog seeing a docked dog will read the wrong signals because the tail is not present.
> 
> As for male humans, it's not actually the tail they dock ....
> 
> Liz


Sheep docking as far as I can see is of great benefit to the sheep, it helps to prevent fly strike. I know in an ideal world the shepherd should be on hand to deal with this but it just isn't practical. 
I know sheep still get fly strike, but it is much reduced by docking.
Far better than being eaten alive by maggots I think


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

They have a tail for a reason. 

As for rona making that comment about sheep docking, just because it serves to one benefit, does that make it right? It's a body part - it is there for a reason. Does the head to say to the hand, I don't need you? No, they all work together.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> They have a tail for a reason.
> 
> As for rona making that comment about sheep docking, just because it serves to one benefit, does that make it right? It's a body part - it is there for a reason. Does the head to say to the hand, I don't need you? No, they all work together.


Have you ever seen a sheep with fly strike? Its horrible and they suffering greatly. Being eaten alive is not nice.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

Jason2 said:


> They have a tail for a reason.
> 
> As for rona making that comment about sheep docking, just because it serves to one benefit, does that make it right? It's a body part - it is there for a reason. Does the head to say to the hand, I don't need you? No, they all work together.


Yes before people made the sheep have that ridiculous fleece then the tail may have been effective, sadly it is no longer so


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## carebear (Jun 10, 2009)

they use the excuse so they dont get their tails caught in the brambles ect- but has anyone really ever heared of a dog catching its tail like this. 

THE REAL REASON -
working dogs gun dog get very excited when doing their thing, dogs wag their tails when their excited and this creates movement and noise if in the bushes which will draw attention to them scaring the pray.. 

i dont think it is nessasary to be docing , and it was a shame that we didnt see more of these breeds with tails going through crufts this year. 

but have you ever been whiped by a boxers tail. awwwwww lol


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

carebear said:


> they use the excuse so they dont get their tails caught in the brambles ect- but has anyone really ever heared of a dog catching its tail like this.
> 
> THE REAL REASON -
> working dogs gun dog get very excited when doing their thing, dogs wag their tails when their excited and this creates movement and noise if in the bushes which will draw attention to them scaring the pray..
> ...


Have you ever been shooting? A wagging tail making noise has nothing to do with docking. Spaniels are used for flushing, so are constantly moving about, making plenty of noise. They dont stalk.

There is plenty of evidence to show that working dogs suffer tail injuries due to the conditions and environment they work in.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

carebear said:


> they use the excuse so they dont get their tails caught in the brambles ect- but has anyone really ever heared of a dog catching its tail like this.
> 
> THE REAL REASON -
> working dogs gun dog get very excited when doing their thing, dogs wag their tails when their excited and this creates movement and noise if in the bushes which will draw attention to them scaring the pray..
> ...


You have obviously seen lots of working gundogs in the field


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> There is plenty of evidence to show that working dogs suffer tail injuries due to the conditions and environment they work in.


then they aint suitable to work in those conditions and environment really, are they?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Natik said:


> then they aint suitable to work in those conditions and environment really, are they?


Oh i agree. I dont see why they have been bred to have such animated tail movement.

However they have been, and there is evidence to support the fact that docking them prevents injuries.

I still dont like docking, and im on the fence when it comes to shooting.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

carebear said:


> they use the excuse so they dont get their tails caught in the brambles ect- but has anyone really ever heared of a dog catching its tail like this.
> 
> THE REAL REASON -
> working dogs gun dog get very excited when doing their thing, dogs wag their tails when their excited and this creates movement and noise if in the bushes which will draw attention to them scaring the pray..
> ...


Yes I have if you had read my previous posts


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Oh i agree. I dont see why they have been bred to have such animated tail movement.
> 
> However they have been, and there is evidence to support the fact that docking them prevents injuries.
> 
> I still dont like docking, and im on the fence when it comes to shooting.


yes, they have been and with all that knowledge these days breeders should know better and those who use them to work in those enviroments...


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> yes, they have been and with all that knowledge these days breeders should know better and those who use them to work in those enviroments...


That is what they have been bred to do 
So all Spaniels should be denied their natural environment?


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## crazybones (Jan 1, 2009)

no but maybe they should try breed for a shorter tail


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Have you ever seen a sheep with fly strike? Its horrible and they suffering greatly. Being eaten alive is not nice.


Doesn't sound nice, but is there not another way to prevent? If I were to make a comparison, I guess it's like removing the tonsils from a human.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

crazybones said:


> no but maybe they should try breed for a shorter tail


Working dogs are bred for their abilities, only breeding from those that have short tails would be detrimental to the breed as a whole


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Doesn't sound nice, but is there not another way to prevent? If I were to make a comparison, I guess it's like removing the tonsils from a human.


Only time consuming, impractical and potentially stressful ways.

In the long run, its the safest and most humane thing to do.


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## crazybones (Jan 1, 2009)

i know but surely their will be dogs out there that are good at their jobs with shorter tails. i know this could be a long process but it could be better in the long run for the breed as then it wouldnt need to be doc


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I would certainly question whether a dog is truly "fit for function" if it has to have large parts of its anatomy hacked off in order to do its job.

However, I think it should be relatively easy to overcome.

In countries where docking is illegal, yet shooting is not, most / all of the working dogs will have full length tails.

Not all of these dogs will suffer tail injuries. It may involve many factors, but this could well inc things that may have a hereditary component. (eg thickness of tail, density of coat, position / carriage / movement of tail)

Breed from those that do not suffer tail injuries.

Over a number of generations you should in theory at least see a reduction in tail injuries.

The other option would be to breed in the bobtail gene - as some breeders have already done with boxers (can't remember in which country though).

As for sheep - as someone has pointed out sheep were not always docked - they now need to be (to prevent flystrike) because of the way people have bred them. If I remember correctly there are still a few breeds of sheep that do not require docking.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

Jason2 said:


> Doesn't sound nice, but is there not another way to prevent? If I were to make a comparison, I guess it's like removing the tonsils from a human.


The only other way is to shear the tail and back end of the sheep, this can leave them vulnerable in other ways. Very easy if you have only a few sheep, but quite impossible if they are out on moorland etc.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

crazybones said:


> i know but surely their will be dogs out there that are good at their jobs with shorter tails. i know this could be a long process but it could be better in the long run for the breed as then it wouldnt need to be doc


Nice in theory but not really an option in the shorter term


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

rona said:


> Nice in theory but not really an option in the shorter term


Would it even work in theory? If working dogs are docked at just a few days of age, it wont be possible to see which ones naturally have shorter tails.

the only way would be to not dock any dogs for the next 3 or 4 decades, so that you could selectively breed the desired trait. Which in turn would leave working dogs open to injuries.


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## crazybones (Jan 1, 2009)

well they arent meant to be in it for the short term are they now lol but surely if they did this it would mean they would be fit for function without docing tails....


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

crazybones said:


> well they arent meant to be in it for the short term are they now lol but surely if they did this it would mean they would be fit for function without docing tails....


A working dog only has a reasonably short time at it's peak, if you stopped working them while breeding for shorter tails then how would you breed for working ability?
As I said, there are areas in the country with cover that do not require a spaniel to be docked, now, if these people started breeding with ability and tail length in mind, after quite a few generations, you may be able to get to the stage of not having to dock, but this may take out huge chunks of breeding stock that have been bred in areas that require docking


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

hawksport said:


> It may be from a biased source but the injuries did occur.


Definitely did. I remember with fondness the BRUISING I got on a daily basis from my Doberboy <3 I wouldn't have traded him or his tail for the world.



hawksport said:


> It would be very interesting to see someone try to hold onto a dobermann by its ears or tail, I am sure they would be left in no doubt about the dogs disapproval.


Lol, what about my friend's dober who lets her 3 year daughter old gnaw and climb all over him! Dobers can be extremely gentle and loving, but they will let you know when you've gone to far. It takes a lot of training and socialization though.



carebear said:


> they use the excuse so they dont get their tails caught in the brambles ect- but has anyone really ever heared of a dog catching its tail like this.
> 
> THE REAL REASON -
> working dogs gun dog get very excited when doing their thing, dogs wag their tails when their excited and this creates movement and noise if in the bushes which will draw attention to them scaring the pray..
> ...


Load of BS. Dobermann are docked as they are meant as Personal Protection animals, meant to work very closely with their owners. The dogs were in danger of being grabbed or hurt otherwise. The ears were cropped in order to allow the dog freer ear movement to aid in hearing, but moreso just so the dog looked "Fierce", intimidation.



crazybones said:


> i know but surely their will be dogs out there that are good at their jobs with shorter tails. i know this could be a long process but it could be better in the long run for the breed as then it wouldnt need to be doc


Ok, so...put aside trying to breed out Dilated Cardiomyopathy in Dobermanns, lets go for SHORTER TAILS!! WHEEE!



crazybones said:


> well they arent meant to be in it for the short term are they now lol but surely if they did this it would mean they would be fit for function without docing tails....


Not even in the long term, would this work. I'm speaking only for Dobermanns, as they are what I know best. You cannot breed tails out of dogs and still stick to the breed standard. It would be immeasurably difficult to breed out long tails as well as trying to prevent DCM. Considering 50-60% of all Dobermanns will be subejected to Dilated Cardiomyopathy in their lifetime, that is one in every 2 puppies being produced today, how can we expect to put so much weight on appearance, when we can't even get the health thing right!

Bah.

In my opinion, cropping and docking, when done correctly by reputable, licensed vets is not painful or disruptive to puppies in the long term. I love the look of a cropped and docked dobe, but I also love Dobes au naturale. Their tails are beautiful, but they are like whips. I have lost track of how many dobes I have seen with broken tails because they became over-excited and slammed their tails into a coffee table or similar object, my boy got a minor fracture in his tail just from whacking it into me!

So yes, I love the tails, I love natural ears, but I also love the cropped ears and I love the docked nubbins. I hate that the choice was removed from owners completely, they should have made stricter regulations against the procedures (ie, must be done by licensed vet by a certain age etc).


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I think working dogs, well spaniels as i kow labs arnt docked because of the damage that can be done possibly resulting in the tails having to be amputated alot more distressing than having them done when a few days old. Ive had 3 springers 2 now and only 1 of them wernt docked my rescue cocker has his docked as well, harvey has the full tail they are very long with a lot of fur so will very easily get damaged we dont work ours but still legal docking as they are done so young no one knows wether they will go to a working home or not or the dog could not be suitable for working for lots of reasons.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> That is what they have been bred to do
> So all Spaniels should be denied their natural environment?


They might have been bred to do certain things, but their anatomy (concerning their tail, couldnt think of a better word lol) certainly doesnt go hand in hand with their function in certain areas if they are prone to such injuries.

Fit for function doesnt mean chopping off body parts....


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Its something that i have wondered a lot i have springers and when reading how they are "designed" for want of a better word, for the job they do i can never understand how/why they have such a huge thick tail.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Surely they aren't fit for function if they have to be docked to do their job? Maybe the breeders could work on fixing that as well as obviously keeping working ability


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> They might have been bred to do certain things, but their anatomy (concerning their tail, couldnt think of a better word lol) certainly doesnt go hand in hand with their function in certain areas if they are prone to such injuries.
> 
> Fit for function doesnt mean chopping off body parts....


Fit for function is a new terminology, Spaniels have been bred for centuries and have had their tails docked for good reason for centuries, it doesn't make it right I know but as with all things, you have to look at the wider issues.
Spaniels are THE best alround gundog, no getting away from that. To take them out of their natural environment would be a total disservice to the breed.
I would love someone to come up with a workable alternative, but it ain't gonna happen.
If any of you had seen a working gundog, then you would realise why I take the stance I do on this.
No amount of treats,cuddles or stimulation could come near the joy a working gundog gets out of a day in the field


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> Fit for function is a new terminology, Spaniels have been bred for centuries and have had their tails docked for good reason for centuries, it doesn't make it right I know but as with all things, you have to look at the wider issues.
> Spaniels are THE best alround gundog, no getting away from that. To take them out of their natural environment would be a total disservice to the breed.
> I would love someone to come up with a workable alternative, but it ain't gonna happen.
> If any of you had seen a working gundog, then you would realise why I take the stance I do on this.
> No amount of treats,cuddles or stimulation could come near the joy a working gundog gets out of a day in the field


I agree i dont work my springers but to get them out in the fields which i do twice everyday and even watch them work in their own right as they do, its instinct they are wonderfull, i have to agree but i do often think the lab has it right they dont have to have tails docked as their tails are not as at risk and their coats are better designed for the fields/ working environment, but give me a springer any time. (no offence lab owners)


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## crazybones (Jan 1, 2009)

i wasnt talking about dobes i was on about spaniels........ Well it would be nice if the breed where ever it could be done was but we are not in an ideal world so i understand that it does need to be done in certain situation just would be nice wouldn't it


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> I agree i dont work my springers but to get them out in the fields which i do twice everyday and even watch them work in their own right as they do, its instinct they are wonderfull, i have to agree but i do often think the lab has it right they dont have to have tails docked as their tails are not as at risk and their coats are better designed for the fields/ working environment, but give me a springer any time. (no offence lab owners)


A friend of mine had to have the tip of her Labs tail off when it damaged it while working. She kept the dog in but she just kept opening it up when she wagged her tail, my friend had blood splattered all over her walls


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

crazybones said:


> i wasnt talking about dobes i was on about spaniels........ Well it would be nice if the breed where ever it could be done was but we are not in an ideal world so i understand that it does need to be done in certain situation just would be nice wouldn't it


It would 
I can agree wholeheartedly with that :thumbup:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> A friend of mine had to have the tip of her Labs tail off when it damaged it while working. She kept the dog in but she just kept opening it up when she wagged her tail, my friend had blood splattered all over her walls


Oh god! ive seen pictures of working springers with damaged tails its awfull. How awfull the poor lab yes ime sure they do still get damaged and really i think spaniels do get more damge o a whole more than labs as they use the tail different dont they, they have more of a quick side to side and round and round motion that twists the undergrowth very tight. Ime all for prevention rather than cure and t.b.h there isnt always a cure for a badly damaged tail other than amputation.


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## Sarahnorris (Dec 1, 2008)

whaleomelette said:


> how long has it been illegal for? because there are LOADS of dogs round here with it


since 2004 in scotland!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> Fit for function is a new terminology, Spaniels have been bred for centuries and have had their tails docked for good reason for centuries, it doesn't make it right I know but as with all things, you have to look at the wider issues.
> Spaniels are THE best alround gundog, no getting away from that. To take them out of their natural environment would be a total disservice to the breed.
> I would love someone to come up with a workable alternative, but it ain't gonna happen.
> If any of you had seen a working gundog, then you would realise why I take the stance I do on this.
> No amount of treats,cuddles or stimulation could come near the joy a working gundog gets out of a day in the field


I didnt say they shouldnt be worked anymore but maybe work them in enviromants where the injuries are less likly to occur rather than sending them in the thickest of bushes knowing the risks ...


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> I didnt say they shouldnt be worked anymore but maybe work them in enviromants where the injuries are less likly to occur rather than sending them in the thickest of bushes knowing the risks ...


Then what dog do you send in cover? 
I assume you have very little knowledge of gundog work?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> Then what dog do you send in cover?
> I assume you have very little knowledge of gundog work?


i dont need any gundog knowledge to realise that chopping off a dogs tail to make it functional for something aint a good thing...


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> i dont need any gundog knowledge to realise that chopping off a dogs tail to make it functional for something aint a good thing...


I think I will leave this here, as generally I agree with you, but we live in the real world unfortunately


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> I think I will leave this here, as generally I agree with you, but we live in the real world unfortunately


... and i dont?


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## shutterspeed (Mar 23, 2010)

> Fit for function is a new terminology, Spaniels have been bred for centuries and have had their tails docked for good reason for centuries, it doesn't make it right I know but as with all things, you have to look at the wider issues.
> Spaniels are THE best alround gundog, no getting away from that. To take them out of their natural environment would be a total disservice to the breed.


So what about the thousands of American Cockers that never leave their comfortable home but still have their tail docked???
That's what worries ME a lot.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> ... and i dont?


I meant us as humans 
There are a lot of things that go on in this world that would be better not happening, some have no reason behind them at all, others although objectionable are based on some sort of need


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

shutterspeed said:


> So what about the thousands of American Cockers that never leave their comfortable home but still have their tail docked???
> That's what worries ME a lot.


That is wrong, that is doing it for no benefit whatever to the dog in question.
I don't even believe that other gundog breeds should ever be docked, the incidence of tail damage is far lower in the HPR's, therefore there is not any reason to dock these breeds


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Very few American cockers are worked right? I don't think they should be docked if they're just going to be a pet or like you said an HPR who don't do much damage


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> I meant us as humans
> There are a lot of things that go on in this world that would be better not happening, some have no reason behind them at all, others although objectionable are based on some sort of need


true.... lol 

I am just a believer that we live in a time with so much knowledge and possibilities that mutilating a dog shouldnt be one of those things which are seen as a necessarity...


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## crazybones (Jan 1, 2009)

i just had a thought pop in my head if a dog had a docked tail if it was and long or shorter tail would the length of the stump be different?? (just a thought.... Suppose it would depend where it was doecked but if everyone docke the same palce) the you could work out the .long and short.


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## healpro (Mar 11, 2009)

rona said:


> That is wrong, that is doing it for no benefit whatever to the dog in question.
> I don't even believe that other gundog breeds should ever be docked, the incidence of tail damage is far lower in the HPR's, therefore there is not any reason to dock these breeds


i have seen long term ulceration in an undocked working viszla.
HPRs work the same terrain as spaniels and therefore surely there is the same risk


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Harvey isnt docked and isnt worked as in worked to the gun but by instinct springers will work in their own right and he has had his tail damaged so i wouldnt like to think he was working all day out there with the risk of greater damage my other are docked and i would go for docked every time.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

I've always had my Weims docked (including my current bitch who was legally docked after the ban). I am also not ashamed to say that I like traditionally docked breeds, docked. 

Docking DOES serve a purpose for working Spaniels and HPR breeds. I have seen some pretty awful injuries, particularly in Spaniels that are workers and are undocked. There is a reason that most people involved with working dogs want them docked and it is not because they look prettier!


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

healpro said:


> i have seen long term ulceration in an undocked working viszla.
> HPRs work the same terrain as spaniels and therefore surely there is the same risk


No, HPR's normally work in more open terrain, you would very rarely get a HPR going into thick bramble. They do and can hurt their tails, much like my friends Lab, but on the whole, this is an unusual occurrence. 
With Spaniels constantly working heavy bramble the consequences of not docking would be clear for all to see. As I said before, those spaniels that don't live in an area with heavy bramble, may not need docking


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Sarahnorris said:


> since 2004 in scotland!


Think you will find it was April 2007


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

Can't working dogs tails be bandaged while they are working?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Only if you want to follow the dog into the brambles and release it when it gets caught


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Only if you want to follow the dog into the brambles and release it when it gets caught


There must be some kind of material they could use? Plastic? I'm thinking maybe someone should invent something as there will probably be a complete ban in the future.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Where i am from...... Guernsey CI. A lot of gundogs are docked even now (owners have gun licence). However there are also a lot undocked! And these dogs do work in very thick undergrowth as well as open land (common) and mediumly thick etc etc an ESS is the main gundog here. 

I have seen a few injuries when walking my own working type ESS (he does not work) and although some look worse than they are the most injuries are on the legs and ears! 

Yes i understand the ears are a protective layer to the inner ear, but what about the leg injuries? People do not lop these off??!!

Do not get me wrong a tail injury is not nice, but it happens a lot less than people make out!

I know of all people that ESS's (for example) have been used for hundreds of years (i do my research!) in Gun dog activities, which is great. But in all honesty we are using them for our own benefit? 

Yes the dog aboslutely loves it, but there are other ways to do this without such thick undergrowth and cutting body parts off!!!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Yes i understand the ears are a protective layer to the inner ear, but what about the leg injuries? People do not lop these off??!!
> 
> Do not get me wrong a tail injury is not nice, but it happens a lot less than people make out!


A friend of mines' daughter used to have a beautiful undocked German Shorthaired Pointer whom she worked, both in the field and in agility. Throughout her life, this lovely dog never once damaged her tail despite also beating it regularly on cupboard doors and such in the house they lived in but she managed to break toes on three different paws!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I found the answer


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> A friend of mines' daughter used to have a beautiful undocked German Shorthaired Pointer whom she worked, both in the field and in agility. Throughout her life, this lovely dog never once damaged her tail despite also beating it regularly on cupboard doors and such in the house they lived in but she managed to break toes on three different paws!


I love my GSPs tail. His mum is docked and I just think its such a shame. I watch Woody hunting and he keeps his tail relatively still and straight so I really don't see the point in docking It seems to be the ears they cut most.


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

hawksport said:


> I found the answer


:lol::lol::lol: That poor dog. That guy was CRAZY.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2010)

hawksport said:


> I found the answer


im so going to get one of these for my puppy so it looks like a silver armadillo


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2010)

i think as the thread OP im changing this to the animal armour thread


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

WoodyGSP said:


> :lol::lol::lol: That poor dog. That guy was CRAZY.


He had to be a troll or something seriously he was amusing though

That armour just looks utterly ridiculous

Why is it always bully breeds too








And some legimate armour for police dogs


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

It might look ridiculous now but when it comes in camo no self respecting gundog is going to be seen without it


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh of course then they'll have to make it in teacup size I mean all those ickle purse dogs are going to just die if they don't have the latest doggy fashion trend


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2010)

im really tempted to get an armour taxidermy squirrel and put it in a tree in the park and see how many people actually notice and go ... wtf?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> A friend of mines' daughter used to have a beautiful undocked German Shorthaired Pointer whom she worked, both in the field and in agility. Throughout her life, this lovely dog never once damaged her tail despite also beating it regularly on cupboard doors and such in the house they lived in but she managed to break toes on three different paws!


The work a GSP does and the way it does it is nothing like what a springer does and how its work is done.


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## shutterspeed (Mar 23, 2010)

whaleomelette said:


> im really tempted to get an armour taxidermy squirrel and put it in a tree in the park and see how many people actually notice and go ... wtf?


I'd love to be in this experiment


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

whaleomelette said:


> im really tempted to get an armour taxidermy squirrel and put it in a tree in the park and see how many people actually notice and go ... wtf?


That would be hilarious Do it Do it Do it


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> He had to be a troll or something seriously he was amusing though


I hope he was a troll. Its scary to think he could be walking around in the woods at night with his night vision goggles on


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

WoodyGSP said:


> I hope he was a troll. Its scary to think he could be walking around in the woods at night with his night vision goggles on


I don't think it was a troll. I reckon it was one of our more regular members in a mischievous mood. 

That thread certainly made me laugh!


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