# Why are puppies SO expensive to buy?!



## melar (Mar 23, 2013)

Our beautiful dog died recently and whilst nothing could EVER replace him the house feels so empty. We now have no pets as we were getting a cat a while ago but that fell through. We have been advised not to get a rescue dog as we have 3 small children. We understand and can manage the costs of owning a dog as we had one for 10 years but just dont have £650 cash to buy one! When we bought George 10 years ago he cost £200 and was pedigree Border Collie. Even cross breeds are double that now, why is this?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Well that depends entirely on the breed you are looking for, some cost upwards of £1000 and for good reason. I would avoid expensive crosses, as breeders of those are unlikely to have reason to charge so much and it's likely to be just due to being fashionable and knowing they can charge a lot.

As for why some puppies cost a lot, health tests cost a lot, stud fees, whelping equipment, the price of taking your dog to shows to get their confirmation checked and ensure they are from good lines etc. That's the only reason for dogs to cost a lot, if they don't have most of those things then it's purely for the breeder to make money so I would swerve them.

That said, if I wanted to buy from a breeder I would save up money while I was researching breeders and awaiting any litters that were coming up.


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## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

Because most people care more about the money than they do about the dogs they have bred now. However it does depend on the breed you're wanting to by, pure breeds will be a bit more expensive, especially those that have been specially bred. If you look in the right places you will find breeders that aren't expecting an arm and a leg for their pups however take into consideration some of the cost may be to cover the cost of the vaccinations they've already been given, the flea/worming treatment, health tests etc. It may also be to put off those that only want a dog for the sake of having one and ensure those who do buy may be more serious about having a pup. Theres many reasons but I do agree, it is far too expensive especially when you're going to need to pay for things once you get the pup home. Good luck


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Lovehatetragedy said:


> Because most people care more about the money than they do about the dogs they have bred now. However it does depend on the breed you're wanting to by, pure breeds will be a bit more expensive, especially those that have been specially bred. If you look in the right places you will find breeders that aren't expecting an arm and a leg for their pups however take into consideration some of the cost may be to cover the cost of the vaccinations they've already been given, the flea/worming treatment etc. It may also be to put off those that only want a dog for the sake of having one and ensure those who do buy may be more serious about having a pup. Theres many reasons but I do agree, it is far too expensive especially when you're going to need to pay for things once you get the pup home. Good luck


Why is it too expensive if you're buying from a very small litter that may have needed a c-section which costs thousands, add in sheep scanners and all the supplements and materials for proper whelping and a healthy pregnancy? I think you'll find many of the good breeders here lost money on their litters


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

2 reasons 
Those that breed responsibly invest time and money in ensuring the parents, grandparents etc are the healthiest possible, doing all possible health tests (hips, eyes etc) feed the best food get the best vet care and spend time socialising the puppies 

Then the irresponsible breeders are just cashing in 

Plus of course inflation over the time 

But my rescue only cost £150


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## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Why is it too expensive if you're buying from a very small litter that may have needed a c-section which costs thousands, add in sheep scanners and all the supplements and materials for proper whelping and a healthy pregnancy? I think you'll find many of the good breeders here lost money on their litters


Thats why I said some of the cost may be to cover that sort of stuff. I know many good breeders have lost money when it comes to litters I wasn't disputing that, I was simply giving the OP some reasons as to why there could be added expense.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Either because the breeder has put a hell of a lot of money into a litter, or because they want a hefty profit.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

A good breeder makes little or no money on litters - often even losses. There are health tests to consider, stud fee, food (extra for bitch and pups), welping box, bedding, vet check ups, pre mate tests, toys, kc registration etc... 

If you cannot afford £650 for a puppy, then I don't know how you are going to be able to afford any emergency vet treatment if you ever need it.

And if they do make any money - it goes to paying for the next generations health tests, stud fee, litter costs etc...


Puppy farmers however do not health test or pay for expensive studs, they are fed cheap basic food, no vet checks, no pre mate checks etc so make pretty large profits - you may only be paying £400 a puppy but I the badly bred pup will most likely cost you heavy vet bills from the poor breeding or behaviourist fees for the poor socialisation. 
£650 is nothing compared to how much owning a dog will cost.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> If you cannot afford £650 for a puppy, then I don't know how you are going to be able to afford any emergency vet treatment if you ever need it.


Ever heard of insurance?? 

Must have missed the part where you're a baller with thousands in savings.


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

The way inflation has gone up in the last 10 years, I think dog prices have only gone up in line with everything else......except wages of course

There are quite a few breed rescues and general rescues that have puppies and young adults for adoption. Also if pups are not sold by three months old, the price drops


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Most breeds have an *average* price for a puppy, Labradors are approx £600-£700 depending on where abouts in the country you are, although you will get plenty cheaper, and some more expensive, there will be a good reason. The cheaper ones will probably have little or no health testing, may not be KC registered, breeder may cut other corners such as letting pups go too early, and the bitch may have been bred from umpteen times. The more expensive ones are likely to be from parentage that has achieved a very high standard either in the show ring, or at field trial level.

£650 is not too much to ask for a nicely bred pup, if you take into account how much a good breeder will spend on planning and producing a litter, you would be lucky to break even with an average sized litter, and quite a few breeders lose out on litters overall. There are lots of costs that the average person wouldn't even think about, not just the normal stud dog fee and whelping kit, but progesterone testing to identify when a bitch is actually ovulating, petrol costs if the stud dog is any distance away, multiplied by two if you go for a second visit, advertising costs for a fairly reputeable site such as champdogs is over £30 per year, the extra electricity for the washing machine running constantly, etc, etc; add to that the cost of health testing, which varies as some breeds have four or five health tests, some more, and unexpected emergency vet fees such as a c-section, and you are talking into a good few thousand pounds.

Edited to add cross breeds should be no different from *pedigree* breeds, they still need health tests in place for whatever breed types they are from. In many instances I do believe it's the gimmicky attraction of a name, or having a type of dog that no-one else has got that people want, and are prepared to pay daft prices for. It's the same as those who advertise puppies of a *rare* colour, it's a marketing ploy and I'd personally steer clear of any such motivations for breeding.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

It depends how you look at it....I personally dont think 650 pounds is a lot of money to spend on a dog if the breeder has taken care with all aspects and ethics of breeding and raised the pup giving consideration to socialisation..training..etc.

It does annoy me when people think majority of breeders are just greedy. Vet fees are very high these days. ..you may have noticed? 

For those who think ethical breeding is cheap...have a look at the cost of breeding some day. It may just open your eyes to the reality.

There are lots of puppies in rescues so I am sure you can look into that if money is tight. Failing that..you will need to save up like most people who want purebred pups have to.

Good luck OP in your puppy search


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

If you go to reputable rescue they may have dogs who have previously lived happily with children. Dogs and pups need rehoming for lots of reasons. That way you save two dogs. One has a loving home and the other has a freed up place in a rescue instead of being put down.
If you have three small children you may find it an advantage to consider a calm adult dog. Training a puppy with three young children will be hard work.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> Ever heard of insurance??
> 
> Must have missed the part where you're a baller with thousands in savings.


A lot of insures expect you to pay the vet then claim back, and if not a lot of vets expect at least bills up to £500 to be settled straight away only waiting for the larger bills to be settled direct with the insurer

I have £500 reserve in the bank for this and a small clear credit limit on a credit card which is just kept for unexpected vets bills.

£650 isn't a lot for a well bred dog these days, with more being understood about dog health, breeding there are more medical tests that can be carried out on the parent dogs to help ensure healthy puppies.

You could try breed rescue or general rescues


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

chichi said:


> It depends how you look at it....I personally dont think 650 pounds is a lot of money to spend on a dog if the breeder has taken care with all aspects and ethics of breeding and raised the pup giving consideration to socialisation..training..etc.
> 
> *It does annoy me when people think majority of breeders are just greedy.* Vet fees are very high these days. ..you may have noticed?
> 
> ...


But the majority of breeders are greedy. The majority don't health test or pay for a decent stud etc. The majority are just making a decent profit.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

sharloid said:


> But the majority of breeders are greedy. The majority don't health test or pay for a decent stud etc. The majority are just making a decent profit.


Where do your figures come from to back up that statement ??? Or is it just your opinion?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

melar said:


> Our beautiful dog died recently and whilst nothing could EVER replace him the house feels so empty. We now have no pets as we were getting a cat a while ago but that fell through. We have been advised not to get a rescue dog as we have 3 small children. We understand and can manage the costs of owning a dog as we had one for 10 years but just dont have £650 cash to buy one! When we bought George 10 years ago he cost £200 and was pedigree Border Collie. Even cross breeds are double that now, why is this?


There are cheaper pups to be brought but these often are bred commercially or by people for profit, and have no health testing done on the parents prior to breeding, not just a vet check but proper health tests available for problems known in the breed and that can be genetic and passed on to the pups. Often the pups are also bred and not raised and socialised properly either which can then lead to all sorts of behaviour problems. To breed correctly and do all the health tests and to get Mum through pregnancy and rearing as well as good nutrition and proper rearing of pups isnt cheap, also it costs to register pups too. Although Kennel club registered pups alone is not a guarantee as even puppy farms and commercial breeding kennels for example can still actually KC register as long as the parent are KC registered themselves without doing the health testing and rearing them properly.
For breeders who do all the things that they should be doing you will often pay more for the pup, then you will from a puppy farm, commerical breeder or even someone just having a litter from their bitch with no health testing or proper breeding knowledge although too may not be cheap as such they are often cheaper then a proper breeder. Puppies after 10 years though will be more expensive in general anyway.

Not all rescue dogs are problems either, many are given up through no fault of their own due to changes in circumstances of the owner, like loss of jobs, losing homes and having to go into rented accomodation, owners dying, or going into care or just too ill to longer be able to keep their dogs. Rescues also often have puppies sometimes born in there, there is usually a mix of crosses and pedigrees and dogs of all ages.

Some rescues will not rehome to homes with Kids under a certain age as a blanket policy, although there are ones that will. Most put the dogs through an assessment to make sure they are child friendly, cat friendly and according to if they have any problems or not and then match the dogs to the owners requirements as regards to if they have kids, other animals and according to if they need training completely, just some ongoing training as they have the basics or if they need an advanced experienced owner.

The Dogs trust for example do not have a blanket policy on the age of children, and will match the people and circumstances to the suitablility of the dogs they have available, sometimes yo may have to wait longer, but they will guide you to the right dog and match you. There is an adoption fee which I think is usually between about £80 - 100 but included in this the dog is vaccinated, spayed or neutered already if old enough or you are given a netering voucher to help with costs if they are not old enough, microchipped, 
wormed, fleaed and vet checked, you also get 4 weeks free health insurance,
a talk to help you get the dog to settle in, and a collar and lead even.Plus on going support if you have any teething problems or worries while settling in.

I beleive Battersea who also have homes in great windsor and brands hatch
too also operate the same sort of policies although not sure if there is a minimum age for kids, which is something you would need to check.

There are responsible re-homing centres and organisations out there where you will be able to find the right dog Im sure, which is a lot safer then buying from a puppy farm, or an ad off the internet or a rehoming sometimes through the internet where people quite often dont tell the truth.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sharloid said:


> But the majority of breeders are greedy. The majority don't health test or pay for a decent stud etc. The majority are just making a decent profit.


I would actually have to agree with you, good breeders are in a minority in my view, and it's not always easy to sort the wheat from the chaff.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Fleur said:


> A lot of insures expect you to pay the vet then claim back, and if not a lot of vets expect at least bills up to £500 to be settled straight away only waiting for the larger bills to be settled direct with the insurer
> 
> I have £500 reserve in the bank for this and a small clear credit limit on a credit card which is just kept for unexpected vets bills.
> 
> ...


I chose my insurance based on the fact my vet will deal with them directly and not require payment upfront


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

chichi said:


> Where do your figures come from to back up that statement ??? Or is it just your opinion?


Look at the number of Siberian Husky litters (and their crosses) on a site such as preloved as opposed to health tested litters of the same breed on champdogs. *146 vs 1. *

I haven't looked at every single one of those ads on preloved, but if you do I bet the majority don't mention health testing.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

chichi said:


> Where do your figures come from to back up that statement ??? Or is it just your opinion?


I'm afraid that you only have to look on gumtree, epupz etc to see that the really good breeders are sadly in the minority 
But it's sadly a case of supply and demand - the public want puppies and they want them now


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Forgot to add all Breeds have their own specific breed rescues too, although criteria as to age of children in the homes may differ, and it is something you would need to check on, but that may be another option aswell.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Puppies are expensive because it costs an awful lot to produce a litter if you do it properly.

As has already been mentioned, many ethical breeders make little or no money or even a loss.

I can't see how the money I paid for my well bred pup would cover even the huge amount of time the breeder put into socialising the pups, never mind all the other costs from food to vaccinations, stud fees to puppy toys and all the rest.

Of course there are bad breeders out there who will charge the same amount as a good breeder but cut corners so make sure you do plenty of research.

I don't think you should rule out a rescue (and you can get puppies from rescue centres) just because you have children but if you really do want to buy from a breeder then if you put away the amount you will be spending on insurance, food etc. each month, then you should be able to save enough in no time whilst you're researching breeds and finding a breeder.


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

I agree in some circumstances, but I think if its from a brilliant breeder its worth it, what I don't get is chugs and cockapoo's selling for £1500.

Purebred dogs normally range from £500 - £800
Crossbreeds are normally around the £300 mark 
and mongrels are normally £0-50 pounds but I would not advise a first time owner or someone with children to take one as they are normally not from the best homes, free to good home puppies do need homes but you don't know the breeds mixed so you could get a giant or a dog that is bad with kids or other pets.

My advice would be to go to breed rescue, dogs trust or many tears. 
BR's have waiting lists for pups, dogs trust's get snapped up straight away so Many Tears is your best bet! They always have puppies in and they are £170 pounds. 

India xxx


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

If you look on certain puppy advertising sites...you will obviously find the less honest and ethical breeders out there.

Half the adverts on some of these sites dont actually have pups available. They are scams to get people to part with money for shipping the non existent puppy to them.....


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

chichi said:


> *If you look on certain puppy advertising sites...you will obviously find the less honest and ethical breeders out there.*
> 
> Half the adverts on some of these sites dont actually have pups available. They are scams to get people to part with money for shipping the non existent puppy to them.....


That's what I'm saying, most breeders aren't ethical.

Anyway OP, I hope you find a suitable puppy.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Ever heard of insurance??
> 
> Must have missed the part where you're a baller with thousands in savings.


Insurance does't cover everything! As you will have seen with a few users on here e.g. someone claimed for a cut pad once, the insurance no longer accept any claims for feet issues with that dog - what happens next time... that's right, the owner pays from their pocket! Also, some insurance companies/vets expect the owner to pay and claim back... and then there is the issue of insurers not paying out...

Also the insurance limit is not endless! The cost of top insurance premiums will be pretty expensive - I don't know, but probably about £30 a month? which adds up to £360 a year...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just to mention as well, most insurance policies do not cover anything to do with breeding, so if things go wrong, and they certainly can do, it's straight out of your own pocket I'm afraid.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

melar said:


> Our beautiful dog died recently and whilst nothing could EVER replace him the house feels so empty. We now have no pets as we were getting a cat a while ago but that fell through. We have been advised not to get a rescue dog as we have 3 small children. We understand and can manage the costs of owning a dog as we had one for 10 years but just dont have £650 cash to buy one! When we bought George 10 years ago he cost £200 and was pedigree Border Collie. Even cross breeds are double that now, why is this?


Same as every other commodity in a market economy - they charge what the market will stand.

Some breeders breed out of love for their chosen breed but some breeders breed for profit. You as a customer have to choose what you want, where and who you buy from.

Myself I never 'buy' a dog, never have and never will. When I want another dog I get a rescue dog, usually my local rescue, but not always. I did rescue a beautiful Border Collie from a so called reputable breeder, not graded to make the show ring, best dog I ever have owned - I never found the curly tail a handicap in the least. My last two lurchers I got on the internet from Lurcher Link, two bitches looking for a good home. They didnt cost me a penny, until I got them home, then all they needed was spaying and micro-chipping so I got the pair for a hundred, got a voucher for the rest of the vets fees. You just have to know where to look.

But with a proviso: you will find it really hard work with 3 young children to take on a puppy and give it all the time and attention it deserves, it's do-able though but you do need to be warned in advance.

As others, my advice is go to your local rescue, put your name down for an adult dog/bitch - used to children and see what they can come up with. The internet can be another source but you need to have your wits about you, if you're experienced you might just fall lucky as I did, wouldnt be without my two girls for the world.

Good Luck!


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Not sure why you were advised not to rescue 
Some rescues have blanket policies regarding kids under 5 or 8 but a lot of the smaller rescues, Dogs, trust and I believe Battersea assess each dog and prospective new family on an individual basis

My rescue Bichon  - ex breeding bitch, kept in a cage  - I've had her less than a year and she is 5 - 6 years old 
She loves kids and is very tolerant, she loves my friends 18 month old petting her, lays right up to her waiting for more fuss, has never growled or snapped at her. 
There are plenty of dogs suitable for families in rescue, you just have to be patient as the rescue team will want to be sure the dog is happy to be around kids and the family understand how best to manage kids and dogs interactions.

Personally with 3 young kids I know I couldn't of managed a puppy  I'd much rather get a clam older dog


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I've got a suggestion for you - Ex Racing Greyhound - there are loads available, very calm in the house and most of them on walks too, happy with little or lots of exercise... and most are great with children as they tend to be nice and gentle.


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## HandsomeHound (Sep 1, 2012)

I have had 2 rescues who both came from homes with young children. They've been absolutely no bother whatsoever. The rescues asked for a donation, and in both cases, I've given the same amount it would've cost me to buy a puppy so they can carry on the good work they do.

Check out the rehoming policies of rescues to see if you'd be eligible, and please don't discount rehoming a dog who needs a second chance at a happy life. Often they're put in to rescues through no fault of their own.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> Insurance does't cover everything! As you will have seen with a few users on here e.g. someone claimed for a cut pad once, the insurance no longer accept any claims for feet issues with that dog - what happens next time... that's right, the owner pays from their pocket! Also, some insurance companies/vets expect the owner to pay and claim back... and then there is the issue of insurers not paying out...
> 
> Also the insurance limit is not endless! The cost of top insurance premiums will be pretty expensive - I don't know, but probably about £30 a month? which adds up to £360 a year...


Well when you have a job yourself you'll probably find £30 for great insurance cover is very worth it - my limit is £7000 per year per condition with no exclusions as I signed up the minute I got her - I think I'm pretty okay - what I don't abide is someone with no job or self-sufficiency lecturing adults with their own children on finances when you don't have a clue yourself - after having 3 children I'm sure the OP appreciates the cost of vets fees


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Well when you have a job yourself you'll probably find £30 for great insurance cover is very worth it - my limit is £7000 per year per condition with no exclusions as I signed up the minute I got her - I think I'm pretty okay - what I don't abide is someone with no job or self-sufficiency lecturing adults with their own children on finances when you don't have a clue yourself - after having 3 children I'm sure the OP appreciates the cost of vets fees


No lecture going on, just presentation of the facts... I would hate for someone take their dog to the vets with their insurance premium, and find out that actually, it doesn't cover all the treatment that their pets needs. At no point did I say that insurance is not worth it, as it very much is, but you have to be careful with which policy you choose... we made that mistake... looking at the small print we were left thinking - what does it actually cover then? We now have decided to self insure instead, along with the Dogs Trust £25 liability.

Why do you assume I have no job or never had a job?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> No lecture going on, just presentation of the facts... I would hate for someone take their dog to the vets with their insurance premium, and find out that actually, it doesn't cover all the treatment that their pets needs. At no point did I say that insurance is not worth it, as it very much is, but you have to be careful with which policy you choose... we made that mistake... looking at the small print we were left thinking - what does it actually cover then? We now have decided to self insure instead, along with the Dogs Trust £25 liability.
> 
> Why do you assume I have no job or never had a job?


I just find it quite condescending for somebody with little to no financial responsibility to try and advise an adult with 3 children on money and 'omg how would you afford that' when you yourself could not - nor could I at the drop of the hat - although I'm eligible for credit cards - which is why I have good insurance - not everybody can pay out £650+ for vets fees at once but that's easily gotten around with insurance


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I just find it quite condescending for somebody with little to no financial responsibility to try and advise an adult with 3 children on money and 'omg how would you afford that' when you yourself could not - nor could I at the drop of the hat - although I'm eligible for credit cards - which is why I have good insurance - not everybody can pay out £650+ for vets fees at once but that's easily gotten around with insurance


Well, I wish I had kept my mouth shut now! Seriously, I'm only trying to help! Um 'omg how would you afford that' was never mentioned 

What I was trying to get at, was when you look at a dogs life - £650 is not a large sum really when you add up vet bills, insurance (if you choose that route), toys, bed, food, vaccinations, working, flea treatment, boarding kennels etc... solid FACT whether stated by a 16 year old, 57 year old or an 80 year old.

Also - there are adults who have done less work in their lives than I have in mine!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> Well, I wish I had kept my mouth shut now! Seriously, I'm only trying to help! Um 'omg how would you afford that' was never mentioned
> 
> What I was trying to get at, was when you look at a dogs life - £650 is not a large sum really when you add up vet bills, insurance (if you choose that route), toys, bed, food, vaccinations, working, flea treatment, boarding kennels etc...


I agree - I don't think £650 is much for a dog who you would plan on having for more than a decade but financially speaking getting a dog and paying instantly for urgent vet treatment are two different things - one you can save up for and the other is not attainable for many hence insurance - completely different issues


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I agree - I don't think £650 is much for a dog who you would plan on having for more than a decade but financially speaking getting a dog and paying instantly for urgent vet treatment are two different things - one you can save up for and the other is not attainable for many hence insurance - completely different issues


Indeed... but also what I was trying to get at is that it would probably be worth waiting a few months once the £650 has been saved up, rather than getting a £300 puppy just because it can be bought instantly.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Ever heard of insurance??
> 
> Must have missed the part where you're a baller with thousands in savings.


LOL! A "baller"! Phoolf gets gangsta! :lol:


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Pupcakes said:


> LOL! A "baller"! Phoolf gets gangsta! :lol:


Makes me wish I had a picture of me all gangsta'd up with Kes wearing a cripps bandana :lol:


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I personally don't begrudge ethical and knowledgeable breeders a penny of the purchase cost of my dogs.

One question- would you go to work for free? Even if it was something you loved and poured your heart in to? Could you afford to? 

Because as well as the physical costs (stud fees and transport to, health testing fees, show/work fees, whelping box and other paraphernalia, x-ray to see pups, increased electricity bills, vaccinations, kennel club registration, vet checks ect ect ect) if everything goes right, there are all the fees in everything goes wrong (emergency c-section, medication ect) the breeder needs to put an extraordinary amount of time and energy into very litter. And then there are the times when it's a singleton litter...

If they make profit on one litter, you can bet it will be lost on another. And any profit which would be made, of decided by numbers of hours spent, would be well below minimum wage...

What about the money they have to spend at a later date, when a puppy can no longer be looked after by the owner and they take the dog back? The advice they are able to offer over the lifetime of the dog?

If you can't afford/don't want to spend the money on a well bred dog, please give money to a rescue who will use it to rescue dogs, rather than lining the pockets of someone who shouldn't be breeding...


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Pupcakes said:


> LOL! A "baller"! Phoolf gets gangsta! :lol:


I have no idea what that means.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

sharloid said:


> I have no idea what that means.


me neither


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

I think it's good that puppies are expensive. People tend to take better care of things that they pay a lot of money for. It makes dogs more valuable in peoples minds and in the long run it'll be fewer dogs ending up in rescue. But that also means that people buying dogs need to have demands on the breeders. Puppies should be delivered with KC registration, a pedigree and be vaccinated. The parents should also have been vaccinated, properly health tested etc. 

If not, don't buy (whatever the price is). 

I don't think 650 is very much for a puppy. I paid 1180 for my dog (12 000 Swedish crowns). In Sweden, puppies usually cost about 10 000-12 000 Swedish crowns (980-1180 pounds).


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

sharloid said:


> I have no idea what that means.


It must be a yankeedoodle thing [I have lots of American friends] - I believe it's someone who is pretty flush or atleast likes to think so as it's not really a complimentary term


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

There are plenty of rescue dogs who are wonderful with children. Some have come from homes with several young kids, in fact.

I really recommend that you speak to more rescues. e.g. the various Labrador rescues have numerous gentle, well adjusted dogs that are fab with kids  

Re the cost of puppies: I have no issue whatsoever with *good*, caring breeders charging enough for their pups so that they make a profit. In fact when I was researching Lab pups, a few years back, I found that the really good breeders were not charging any more than the ones who didn't give a damn! 

What I find absurd are when people pay £1000 or more for a Doodle dog. Sure they're lovely but often they DO shed, their appearance is not standardised and little or no health testing is done of the parent dogs - so why are people happy to play MORE for these than for a more 'traditional' breed pup from fully health tested parents???


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## HandsomeHound (Sep 1, 2012)

Vicki said:


> I think it's good that puppies are expensive. *People* *tend to take better care of things that they pay a lot of money for.* It makes dogs more valuable in peoples minds and in the long run it'll be fewer dogs ending up in rescue.


Sadly, that's not always true. Both my rescues have been good pedigree dogs that must've cost a lot of money, but it didn't stop their original owners thinking nothing about disposing of them when they became surplus to requirements. Thank goodness for the dedicated people who run the rescues who enable us to rehome to fantastic dogs. We saw a beautiful Spinone puppy this morning, and much as my heart melted, I know I'd never have another puppy. If I'm able to have another dog in the future, it'll definitely be another rescue.


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## melar (Mar 23, 2013)

dandogman said:


> A good breeder makes little or no money on litters - often even losses. There are health tests to consider, stud fee, food (extra for bitch and pups), welping box, bedding, vet check ups, pre mate tests, toys, kc registration etc...
> 
> If you cannot afford £650 for a puppy, then I don't know how you are going to be able to afford any emergency vet treatment if you ever need it.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I know about the costs of owning dogs, I have owned a few . I've never in all that time had to pay out £650 in vet bills in one go as I have always made sure I have good insurance. Things not covered by insurance (flea/worm/vax) don't come to anywhere near that.

It is a good point that the cheaper one's may not have had the thorough health testing etc but I am not sure that is always the case. It's a minefield!


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

melar said:


> Our beautiful dog died recently and whilst nothing could EVER replace him the house feels so empty. We now have no pets as we were getting a cat a while ago but that fell through. We have been advised not to get a rescue dog as we have 3 small children. We understand and can manage the costs of owning a dog as we had one for 10 years but just dont have £650 cash to buy one! When we bought George 10 years ago he cost £200 and was pedigree Border Collie. Even cross breeds are double that now, why is this?


The world has changed, everything costs more than 10yrs ago.

Although if you pop onto gumtree or Facebook you will find a pedigree for £200 (you won't find a KC health tested dog for that though)


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

melar said:


> Thanks. I know about the costs of owning dogs, I have owned a few . I've never in all that time had to pay out £650 in vet bills in one go as I have always made sure I have good insurance. Things not covered by insurance (flea/worm/vax) don't come to anywhere near that.
> 
> It is a good point that the cheaper one's may not have had the thorough health testing etc but I am not sure that is always the case. It's a minefield!


Good good, lucky you!  We ended up with a 2k bill with our previous dog (seizures, special food, blood tests, GA, epilepsy meds etc... - liver failure/cancer/disease) , which was why I wanted to give you the information...

Sadly - it is normally the case. You would be hard pushed to find a litter of Labradors with relevant health tests (hips, elbows, eyes) under £500 - more likely £600 in my experience - more for fully tested and champion parents. It is hard to know what I best, as lots of people have cross breeds or un health tested dogs but they live a full and happy life with no problems... but for the sake of £300, in my opinion, the risk is too high...
My auntie wants a chocolate Labrador - currently searching for a puppy... she said she can afford £400 maximum, i've looked, but the cheapest health tested Labs in my area (basic hips, elbows and eyes) were £600... she is going ahead regardless of my advice and going with a cheaper puppy... I bet it won't be cheaper in the long run...


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

dandogman said:


> me neither


Nor I.....


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## melar (Mar 23, 2013)

dandogman said:


> I've got a suggestion for you - Ex Racing Greyhound - there are loads available, very calm in the house and most of them on walks too, happy with little or lots of exercise... and most are great with children as they tend to be nice and gentle.


I didn't think of Greyhounds, I will look into that breed thanks



dandogman said:


> Good good, lucky you!  We ended up with a 2k bill with our previous dog (seizures, special food, blood tests, GA, epilepsy meds etc... - liver failure/cancer/disease) , which was why I wanted to give you the information...
> 
> Sadly - it is normally the case. You would be hard pushed to find a litter of Labradors with relevant health tests (hips, elbows, eyes) under £500 - more likely £600 in my experience - more for fully tested and champion parents. It is hard to know what I best, as lots of people have cross breeds or un health tested dogs but they live a full and happy life with no problems... but for the sake of £300, in my opinion, the risk is too high...
> My auntie wants a chocolate Labrador - currently searching for a puppy... she said she can afford £400 maximum, i've looked, but the cheapest health tested Labs in my area (basic hips, elbows and eyes) were £600... she is going ahead regardless of my advice and going with a cheaper puppy... I bet it won't be cheaper in the long run...


Sorry I didn't explain myself. George's recent vet bills came to well over 2k but the insurance (Tesco) covered everything bar the £60 excess and £160 to have him pts and cremated when he became too poorly to give him any more treatment. Tesco paid the vet directly thankfully (although I keep a zero balance credit card to cover any eventualities).

I guess I just feel sad that I can offer a committed and loving home but can't do because I dont have the upfront cost. It is probably too soon after George anyway (I still havent managed to stop crying, went for a walk earlier it was HORRID) but when I am feeling stronger I will look into other rescues. Thanks everyone x

ETA thanks for explaining re costs of breeding. It was a genuine question, I didn't realise the costs involved in breeding. I'd rather save and buy from a responsible breeder/rescue x


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> There are plenty of rescue dogs who are wonderful with children. Some have come from homes with several young kids, in fact.
> 
> I really recommend that you speak to more rescues. e.g. the various Labrador rescues have numerous gentle, well adjusted dogs that are fab with kids
> 
> ...


I really can't argue with this, but many's the case that these so called good, caring breeders are breeding a specific breed not for the good of the said breed, but for the sole purpose of breeding a 'world beating super dooper champion'. They sell 'all' the puppies that don't match this criteria to the well meaning public in most cases as pets - hence the public gets a very expensive pure bred dog, possibly a fit and healthy, if they have honestly done all the health testing that needs to be done.

Before somebody chastises me - it is not my intention to say that ALL breeders of pedigree dogs are in any way like the above - I say SOME.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Supasilvfoxy said:


> I really can't argue with this, but many's the case that these so called good, caring breeders are breeding a specific breed not for the good of the said breed, but for the sole purpose of breeding a 'world beating super dooper champion'. They sell 'all' the puppies that don't match this criteria to the well meaning public in most cases as pets - hence the public gets a very expensive pure bred dog, possibly a fit and healthy, if they have honestly done all the health testing that needs to be done.
> 
> Before somebody chastises me - it is not my intention to say that ALL breeders of pedigree dogs are in any way like the above - I say SOME.


I have to agree to a certain extent. I do think that some folk who show or compete, do move dogs on in a responsible way, but many don't unfortunately. I don't want a world beating super duper champion unless that idea of a world beating super duper champion happens to align with what I love about my breeds. I also can't see me breeding at all unless it's to keep a pup back for me to run on.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Plenty of rescues have puppies. I'm not one of those 'don't buy from a breeder when there's so many in rescue' people. Because people have different reasons for wanting a puppy from a good breeder. Or not wanting a rescue. 

But if you're not set on a specific breed there really are thousands of pups in rescue. Just a quick look on many tears site and there's puppies aplenty!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

dandogman said:


> A good breeder makes little or no money on litters - often even losses. There are health tests to consider, stud fee, food (extra for bitch and pups), welping box, bedding, vet check ups, pre mate tests, toys, kc registration etc...
> 
> If you cannot afford £650 for a puppy, then I don't know how you are going to be able to afford any emergency vet treatment if you ever need it.
> 
> ...


well ive never paid anything like 650 per pup and none of mine have ever wanted for anything.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Another vote for Rescue ! I adopted a 9yr old dog from Dachshund rescue, the sweetest, gentlest little dog you could meet. As we have 2 young grandsons a good temperament was of prime importance , Tango was reported to be good with children so with careful introduction and supervision all parties were happy.
A friend recently got an 18 month old from Labrador Trust, she'd been brought up with a baby and rehomed due to change in family circumstances, a lovely friendly calm bitch.
I did originally want a puppy but thinking about it, didn't relish the hard work involved ! My rescue Golden Oldie is perfect for us all !!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

melar said:


> I didn't think of Greyhounds, I will look into that breed thanks
> 
> Sorry I didn't explain myself. George's recent vet bills came to well over 2k but the insurance (Tesco) covered everything bar the £60 excess and £160 to have him pts and cremated when he became too poorly to give him any more treatment. Tesco paid the vet directly thankfully (although I keep a zero balance credit card to cover any eventualities).
> 
> ...


I'm sorry for what you are going through - most of us here know the pain. 
There is no set time as to when you are ready to open your heart again to another... some it can be the next day, others it could be years. Just do what feels right
If you would be happy to go for a rescue puppy, they would be most likely cross breeds and normally ask for about £200 donation. Dogs trust are supposed to be very good on matching dog to owner if you would consider an adult dog.

Good luck on whatever route you take.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Good luck in your search, puppies are a lot of work especially with 3 young children but i think its worth it when you consider you have the rest of your puppies adult life ahead, i personally wouldnt rescue with children or in my case young grandchildren, but we are all different, hope whatever you decide turns out well.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2013)

sharloid said:


> But the majority of breeders are greedy. The majority don't health test or pay for a decent stud etc. The majority are just making a decent profit.


depends where your looking , i avoid at all costs scouring sites like preloved , epupz and gumtree when looking for a decent puppy.
my new pup i paid over £1000 , her parents had every health test imaginable , both with excellent scores and clear eye certs. she's champion sired and from some of the very BEST lines in the UK , some people in the breed are charging up to 2k a puppy for this breed!! i don't begrudge what i paid , spent months and months researching lines , scores and breeders and i know for a fact the breeder i purchased her from didn't make one single penny and even if they had , i wouldn't have begrudged it - my pup is worth every single penny i paid for her and more! to me she's absolutely priceless.
even more so i know i can ring her breeder up and confidently say should there be a problem i'll get the help and advice i need , they absolutely care 110% for what they produce and do like to keep tabs on their puppies.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Sorry to hear of your loss ....dogs become so much a part of our families that losing them leaves a huge hole and I can understand your wish to replace him to try and ease then pain ...but ....if I were you I'd pause a while, spend some time researching dog breeds ( go to a big Championship show to see many different breeds ) , then contact the breed club of the breed you decide on and visit some breeders , put your name down for a well bred pup from health tested parents from a breeder who will give you a lifetime of support as well as providing an safety net for your dog should anything happen in the future. This will give you time to save up.

At first glance the cost of pups can seem excessive , I'm a breeder planning my next litter ( not advertising as they are all booked ) and so far I 've spent £ 500 on stud fees, £160 on hip scoring, £35 on my bitch's current clear eye test, £100 on fuel to take her to the stud dog, £350 on a new whelping box, £35 on scanning, £90 on Vet bed not to mention the cost of campaigning my bitch to have her assessed by breed experts as of good enough quality to breed from. ...and don't forget that good breeders stay with their pups 24/7 which means they are not able to work ,they feed the best quality food and invest huge amounts of time in socialising their pups in order to prepare them for life as wonderful family pets.

I will be charging £700 for a pup from champion parents......I have no guarantee that my bitch will have any viable pups at all or that she will not need an emergency caeser ,or that she will just have one pup in the litter ...I may cover my costs , I may make a huge loss or I may make a profit ( which will all be ploughed back into the dogs ) 

You can buy pups cheaply .....but consider that you will be spending many years with it ...is it not better to get the very best you can ?


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## Mark Walden (Mar 31, 2013)

It depends on the breed, quite often they can overcharge and undercharge, and they have good reasons for this. I've seen puppy farmers selling them for as low as £200, they lie to owners about the puppies pedigree and people fall into the trap and think they got a good deal. 

I've met loads of genuine decent breeders our there, and I can only account for Beagles and Bassets but the overall charge is between £750-800 for a purebred type Beagle and they are kept and brought up beautifully. 

I went into Harrods about 6 months ago, they were selling Beagles at *drum roll....* £2000 EACH! Of course I had to investigate and kept looking around, asked if I could see any papers or pedigree certificates, I think they knew what I was trying to do and they wanted me to leave! What cheek!!!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Mark Walden said:


> It depends on the breed, quite often they can overcharge and undercharge, and they have good reasons for this. I've seen puppy farmers selling them for as low as £200, they lie to owners about the puppies pedigree and people fall into the trap and think they got a good deal.
> 
> I've met loads of genuine decent breeders our there, and I can only account for Beagles and Bassets but the overall charge is between £750-800 for a purebred type Beagle and they are kept and brought up beautifully.
> 
> I went into Harrods about 6 months ago, they were selling Beagles at *drum roll....* £2000 EACH! Of course I had to investigate and kept looking around, asked if I could see any papers or pedigree certificates, I think they knew what I was trying to do and they wanted me to leave! What cheek!!!


I agree and to assume that because the price is high it must be well bred.
The puppy farmed puppies shipped in from ireland also brought over from wales and sold in the leeds "supermarket" are very highly priced.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

My first and my eldest springer at £150 would certainly be on the "dont touch with a barge pole list", bless em, weve been lucky i suppose, our first died young but even if their parents had have been health tested they wouldnt have been tested for the disease he died from, harvey is nearly 13 and is still amazing with arthritic hip now but at his age he can be forgiven for that.

Its a mine field i think, because some, high priced "well bred" pups can be anything but that.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have never paid a lot for a puppy. There are a lot of litters around at reasonable prices. I do not go for breeds that are likely to get HD though I suppose the standard poodles could. Funnily enough the only breed that seems more commonly to be advertised as having health tests is labs but a lot of them still have bad hips in spite of testing. My sisters GSD guide dog was xrayed and passed to be a brood bitch then it was decided to train her instead. She is 6 and having to be retired for bad hips - as has virtually all her GSDs and her ex husbands ones.

I prefer to go for a pup that has been reared the way I like from parents that I like the look of.
With all the dogs I have owned over 40 years (some rescues, some free or cheap pups and some bought) I have never had a big vets bill and if I did I would have to cope with it somehow.
I could raise the money to buy an expensive pup but I would resent it and could not justify it.

OP, if you want an older dog why not look out for a private rehome - there are often a lot around and fairly genuine reasons for it plus you can see them in their own home and see how they really do behave and often have a short trial to make sure the dog suits you.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I would never pay £650 for a puppy because I couldn`t afford it. I can (and do) give my dogs a damn good life though. 
I am s;lightly taken aback by the attitude expressed by some that because you won`t or can`t pay megabucks for a dog you shouldn`t have one. 
Here are my dogs: 
Daisy - pedigree GSD - £125 from Vigil Rescue
Shamus - pedigree Shorthaired Pointer from Allbreeds Rescue - £120
Prince - Dobie X from RSPCA - £100
Alfie - Young border Collie from local vet who refused to pts - free! 

I get most of my dogs at the age of 1. Right when the teenage tantrums are at their height. People these days are so quick to give up. 
Their loss though. 

Genuine Rehomes are out there. Avoid puppy farms and Gumtree. And best wishes with your search. My first dog was a free to good home 1 year-old from the local paper. She gave me 12 years of love and fun. I hope you are as lucky.


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

Not sure I see the difference between the "Free to good home" local paper ad or the "Good home needed" Gumtree version.

Or the Cheap "Cute our dog's had pups" Gumtree pup or the Many tears (for example) pup - except with the Gumtree (for example) option you get to see the pup in a home with a/both parent/s - which for me would be a big advantage.

There are some breeds I wouldn't go for without Health tests - & would obviously expect to pay for this if that was a breed I was interested in.

RE Private rehome - Family have had some crackers but as opposed to the rescue route - you're on you're own. You're the one making the assessment on whether it's the dog for you & dealing if things don't work out.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sosha said:


> Not sure I see the difference between the "Free to good home" local paper ad or the "Good home needed" Gumtree version.
> 
> *Or the Cheap "Cute our dog's had pups" Gumtree pup or the Many tears (for example) pup - except with the Gumtree (for example) option you get to see the pup in a home with a/both parent/s - which for me would be a big advantage*.
> 
> ...


Big difference.

With Many Tears they are more likely to be candid about the size the pups are likely to reach, potential health issues, etc.

With Gumtree you are taking everything on trust and pretty often, people do not give you the whole story.

I would always rather support any type of rescue rather than someone who advertises their pet on Gumtree.

Now that being said, there are *some* genuine folk on Gumtree etc but my goodness, it truly is a case of 'buyer beware'!


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2013)

Folks have different reasons for not wanting to rescue, and that's fine, but just wanted to point out that this notion that you can't/shouldn't rescue if you have children is flawed.

We have young children and all of our dogs are rescues, only one acquired as a puppy. My best dog with children we got at 8 months (estimated age). He's actually even more tolerant than our dog we raised from 8 weeks. 

Much of what makes dogs good with children is not having been raised with them but just their overall personality and temperament. What tends to trigger that dog (or not) and how high of a threshold the dog has for that trigger. And, most importantly, bite inhibition. Just because a dog is raised with kids, doesn't mean that dog has good bite inhibition. 

Good luck whatever you decide.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

All mine are mongrels/crosses

Sadie - £5 aged 8 weeks, out of the local paper 12 years ago. Been to the vets only for jabs.
Benjie - £80 RSPCA aged 10 months, 9 years ago, been to the vets for jabs.
Louie - £300, health tested parent (can't remember whether it was the Mum or Dad), 3 years ago, been to the vets due to dietary issues. 
Pennie - £250, same breeder, 1 year ago, been to vets due to a pregnancy scare. 

Yes we paid more for my younger two, but Louie was a gift and Pen was, well Pen wasn't supposed to happen but I love the cross. 

IMO you don't always get what you pay for. According to some people; Lou and Pen should be riddled with ill - health (they may be later on in life, but they are healthy now), they should be of bad temperament etc.. but they aren't. 

People pointing out health tests, should also point out that they only clear the parents - yes you have a higher chance of the pups being clear also but they are not rejected from the laws of nature, whereby they may be born with defects or illnesses. 

But anyway - what everyone has said about WHY pups are expensive is just a repeat of what I would've said. 

I for one would suggest private re-homes or rescues if you do not want to pay so much for a pup, if you find a breeder you like they may have had a pup back - an older one.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Good breeders will pump money into a litter before they are even born by stud fee's, traveling to a stud, progesterone testing (I spent roughly £200 on it!) and herpes vaccines. 

The easy bit is the pregnancy, however it still costs money. Scanning costs money and once confirmed in pup buying whelping supplies too costs a small fortune. 

Once the pups are born you can bet the bitch will eat more, your electric and gas will cost more from washing bedding daily and keeping the house warm for the pups. 

Once the pups are walking and eating many ££ will be spent on food, mince and other goodies for the puppies. The breeder will go through more news paper than anyone can comprehend. 

Once they are ready to go another cost of vet checks, microchipping and vaccines should the breeder decide to do them. 

Not to mention should any complications arise. My bitch had a simple straight forward litter however she got a mild infection a week after birthing and that cost me a good couple of hundred.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

If you want to go down the breeder route, save up and spend the time finding the right breeder, on who does all the relevant health tests for their breed IMO is the very least a breeder should do  I'm paying more for my pup BUT both parents have the recommended health test for the breed and then more tests while not enforced that should be done for the breed! They rarely have litters, so have to wait, pups are brought up in the house round the family and people constantly, most social litter I've met, parents are great examples of the breed with amazing temperaments, breeder will do first vac's on pups, eye and heart tests, micro chipped and registered to breeder so she always knows where her babies are, stupid things like each pup will spend time in a crate on its own, so they get used to it, so it's easier for new owners, she is in contact with all her pups owners and also those of who her male sired! It's worth it to wait and find an amazing breeder, and you can see where the money goes, I'd happily pay twice as much from this breeder as she does go over and above x


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Big difference.
> 
> With Many Tears they are more likely to be candid about the size the pups are likely to reach, potential health issues, etc.
> 
> With Gumtree you are taking everything on trust and pretty often, people do not give you the whole story.


But purely talking pups, surely in rescue you're talking Puppy farm excess or some random bods unwanted litters - that's got to be a whole lot more unknowns as to what went in than someone who's just let their family dog have a litter.

I'd also expect more honesty from the "She's such a nice dog let's have pups" person than some random Bod who's dumped their pups on Rescue and if you've seen the parent/s you'll have more idea how the pup will turn out. That scenario is not "taking on trust" it's using your eyes.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sosha said:


> But purely talking pups, surely in rescue you're talking Puppy farm excess or some random bods unwanted litters - that's got to be a whole lot more unknowns as to what went in than someone who's just let their family dog have a litter.
> 
> I'd also expect more honesty from the "She's such a nice dog let's have pups" person than some random Bod who's dumped their pups on Rescue and if you've seen the parent/s you'll have more idea how the pup will turn out. That scenario is not "taking on trust" it's using your eyes.


Hmmmm I disagree, most rescues will take the time to socialise pups correctly and access them before rehoming and try and match right pup with right home, will get health checks done etc Gumtree and likes I find a lot of people either just want to make money out of a designer mating, or just get rid of pups soon as, no worming, no health checks often before 8 weeks to who ever turns up at their door.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Gumtree has become the place to sell stolen dogs. I`d avoid like the plague.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Sosha said:


> But purely talking pups, surely in rescue you're talking Puppy farm excess or some random bods unwanted litters - that's got to be a whole lot more unknowns as to what went in than someone who's just let their family dog have a litter.
> 
> I'd also expect more honesty from the "She's such a nice dog let's have pups" person than some random Bod who's dumped their pups on Rescue and if you've seen the parent/s you'll have more idea how the pup will turn out. That scenario is not "taking on trust" it's using your eyes.


For me, it's also about not supporting breeders I regard as unethical.

I wouldn't buy a puppy from a person who doesn't health test. I feel that since they can be done, they should be. I know they aren't the be all and end all; all of our family dogs were from farmers (collies) and weren't tested, and they were fine.

I just don't feel like 'Aww, she should have a litter' is a good enough reason to breed, and as such, wouldn't buy one of the pups and so line the breeder's pockets (making it a profitable experience and more likely to be repeated), although I'd consider taking a pup for free.

Because I know health tests on the parents aren't the final say, I'd be happy buying a puppy from a rescue and so supporting the rescue.

It's all a bit of a gamble at the end of the day, for me it's just reducing risks and not supporting the wrong people.


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Hmmmm I disagree, most rescues will take the time to socialise pups correctly and access them before rehoming and try and match right pup with right home, will get health checks done


What sort of heath checks? Hip scoring etc is out, No reason the one-off-family pet type wouldn't get their dogs given the once over by the vet, and their pups would be likely to have fine/better early socialization. Their homing criteria maybe lacking or not, but that's not really relevant to the person looking for a family pet.



Megan345 said:


> I just don't feel like 'Aww, she should have a litter' is a good enough reason to breed, and as such, wouldn't buy one of the pups and so line the breeder's pockets (making it a profitable experience and more likely to be repeated), although I'd consider taking a pup for free.


Nope - it's a silly reason to breed - however I'd theoretically consider the right pup at the cover your costs price & I wouldn't describe such a scenario as unethical.

Not convinced importing commercial breeding excess is ethical really.

Not saying gumtree & similar hasn't got more than its share of charlatans, or knocking rescues.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Sosha said:


> Nope - it's a silly reason to breed - however I'd theoretically consider the right pup at the cover your costs price & I wouldn't describe such a scenario as unethical.
> 
> Not convinced importing commercial breeding excess is ethical really.
> 
> Not saying gumtree & similar hasn't got more than its share of charlatans, or knocking rescues.


It all comes down to what your definition of ethical is, really, different people will find different things acceptable.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sosha said:


> What sort of heath checks? Hip scoring etc is out, No reason the one-off-family pet type wouldn't get their dogs given the once over by the vet, and their pups would be likely to have fine/better early socialization. Their homing criteria maybe lacking or not, but that's not really relevant to the person looking for a family pet.


It's an accidental, and most people want shot ASAP, and don't care where the pups go and I doubt they have been vet checked at all, I certainly know most won't.............. I know hip scores are out, that why I said health check rather than a health tests.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Nope - it's a silly reason to breed - however I'd theoretically consider the right pup at the cover your costs price & I wouldn't describe such a scenario as unethical.


It is if they haven't done it properly. And if they'd done it properly with the relevant health tests, care and using a good stud dog, then the price to cover costs is likely to be the same as the price a good breeder would charge.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> What sort of heath checks? Hip scoring etc is out, No reason the one-off-family pet type wouldn't get their dogs given the once over by the vet, *and their pups would be likely to have fine/better early socialization. *Their homing criteria maybe lacking or not, but that's not really relevant to the person looking for a family pet.


Really? Not if they are having a litter of cute pups and don't have a clue. Why would you think their early socialisation would be better?


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

Loved family pet, raised in the home, possible kids, other pets etc... 

Vs
?

(Can't get shot/ dump them at a rescue in a box/ ship 'em in from some barn in ireland, raised in Kennels if no foster available)

Not saying there aren't muppets who you can walk away from/ or that rescues don't do a good job socializing pups. Just "So can Joe public"


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> It is if they haven't done it properly. And if they'd done it properly with the relevant health tests, care and using a good stud dog, then the price to cover costs is likely to be the same as the price a good breeder would charge.


If we're talking a *breed *that has required health tests then ofcourse.

Doubt my second hand JRT x's ancestors had any - or the office Lurcher who was brought as a pup.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sosha said:


> But purely talking pups, surely in rescue you're talking Puppy farm excess or some random bods unwanted litters - that's got to be a whole lot more unknowns as to what went in than someone who's just let their family dog have a litter.
> 
> I'd also expect more honesty from the "She's such a nice dog let's have pups" person than some random Bod who's dumped their pups on Rescue and if you've seen the parent/s you'll have more idea how the pup will turn out. That scenario is not "taking on trust" it's using your eyes.


I do take your point.

However the problem remains that when buying dogs/pups over Gumtree for example, you only ever have the seller's word for it re who the sire was, for instance...

If someone is careless over either letting their bitch get pregnant OR actively mating her, without the vital health tests etc, then I personally would not WANT to trust that they are being more careful over other things including the truth...

And I certainly would never ever be happy to line the pockets of anyone who let their dog have a litter simply because 'she's a nice dog' or some such 'reason'.

At least with a rescue, while the origins of the dog may be no better, any money you pay goes to the rescue - and not to someone who bred from their pet without doing health tests.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sosha said:


> What sort of heath checks? Hip scoring etc is out, No reason the one-off-family pet type wouldn't get their dogs given the once over by the vet, and their pups would be likely to have fine/better early socialization. Their homing criteria maybe lacking or not, but that's not really relevant to the person looking for a family pet.
> 
> Nope - it's a silly reason to breed - however I'd theoretically consider the right pup at the cover your costs price & I wouldn't describe such a scenario as unethical.
> 
> ...


But I would argue that supporting someone who bred their pet Lab, for instance, is highly unethical IF the dam and sire were not hip scored. Not just unethical but morally repugnant, to me. I speak as someone with a young Lab who has hip dysplasia.

There are countless people who breed their Labs without even ensuring there are no eye problems, and no potential hip dysplasia. How is that NOT unethical


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> But I would argue that supporting someone who bred their pet Lab, for instance, is highly unethical IF the dam and sire were not hip scored. Not just unethical but morally repugnant, to me. I speak as someone with a young Lab who has hip dysplasia.
> 
> There are countless people who breed their Labs without even ensuring there are no eye problems, and no potential hip dysplasia. How is that NOT unethical


Yep. Agreed. though you could substitute "Ill-informed" sometimes.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'd also argue someone breeding from a health tested dog, with the knowledge that the results are not suitable to breed from is just as culpable as someone who hasn't bothered to health test at all. It happens too often, even with supposedly ethical breeders.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Sosha said:


> If we're talking a *breed *that has required health tests then ofcourse.
> 
> Doubt my second hand JRT x's ancestors had any - or the office Lurcher who was brought as a pup.


Shouldn't make any difference whether a breed or cross breed - they should still have the health tests relevant to the breed. And health tests are only a small part of the costs incurred when raising a litter.

Well, then it's unlikely your second hand JRTx or the office lurcher came from an ethical breeder.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Sosha said:


> Yep. Agreed. though you could substitute "Ill-informed" sometimes.


But ill-informed is unethical. Surely a breeder should have a duty to breed responsibly. The information is all out there - ill informed is not an excuse.


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> Shouldn't make any difference whether a breed or cross breed - they should still have the health tests relevant to the breed. And health tests are only a small part of the costs incurred when raising a litter.
> 
> Well, then it's unlikely your second hand JRTx or the office lurcher came from an ethical breeder.


Who knows on the Terrier. I wouldn't swap him though.

Office Lurcher came from 2 working Lurchers whose owners wanted a pup from them. Are there health tests for Lurchers?

Edit:

Can you be "unethical" if you don't know what you're doing is wrong?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2013)

Sosha said:


> Can you be "unethical" if you don't know what you're doing is wrong?


yes! 
with the wealth of information out there now , there's absolutely NO reason not to know.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sosha said:


> Who knows on the Terrier. I wouldn't swap him though.
> 
> Office Lurcher came from 2 working Lurchers whose owners wanted a pup from them. Are there health tests for Lurchers?
> 
> ...


Yes, ignorance is no excuse.

Lurchers do not generally have health tests, but again, there are thousands bred, and they're not an easy type of dog necessarily to rehome.

If you don't know about the background of your terrier, I'd also have to agree that the breeders were/are unethical.

Whether specific health tests are available to use or not, someone who breeds needs to research properly, be knowledgeable about conformation as poor conformation can result in health issues, and must breed for temperament. The vast majority of homes available are for pets only, and whilst you want a dog with drive to work, they must also fit in with a pet type of home, as that's where the vast majority of pups bred will end up. Otherwise you're simply breeding pups/dogs that need to be pts.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Can you be "unethical" if you don't know what you're doing is wrong?


Yes, of course. Same way as you can break the law without knowing. Ignorance is no excuse.


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Folks have different reasons for not wanting to rescue, and that's fine, but just wanted to point out that this notion that you can't/shouldn't rescue if you have children is flawed.
> 
> We have young children and all of our dogs are rescues, only one acquired as a puppy. My best dog with children we got at 8 months (estimated age). He's actually even more tolerant than our dog we raised from 8 weeks.
> 
> ...


Quite right! puppies that are raised with puppies usually have good bite inhibition, far too many are taken away from dam and litter mates before they have had a chance to learn bite inhibition.

As for kids I always judge how well do the kids behave with a dog, instead of how well do the dogs behave with kids. Not so many kids these days are brought up to respect animals, lots are just indulged with a puppy to be used as a toy/playmate.


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

I actually don't think puppies are that expensive really. 

If you look at the fact your dog will hopefully give you many years of love and loyalty, a few hundred pounds is such a small price to pay. 

I bought my first ever pedigree kitten late last year (have always had rescue cats previously). The last thing I considered was how much she would cost. I'd spent years learning about the breed, assessing whether it was the right breed for me and my other pets, researching any common health issues etc and the cost was never really a factor. I paid a few hundred pounds because it was around the average price for that type of kitten, I would have paid twice that amount if that's what the average was.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I was just thinking what it cost me to buy my lot, it was £1,700 for three of them, and then Tau's litter put me £3k in the red, so that was one expensive puppy!!!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Grace_Lily said:


> *I actually don't think puppies are that expensive really. *
> If you look at the fact your dog will hopefully give you many years of love and loyalty, a few hundred pounds is such a small price to pay.
> 
> I bought my first ever pedigree kitten late last year (have always had rescue cats previously). The last thing I considered was how much she would cost. I'd spent years learning about the breed, assessing whether it was the right breed for me and my other pets, researching any common health issues etc and the cost was never really a factor. I paid a few hundred pounds because it was around the average price for that type of kitten, I would have paid twice that amount if that's what the average was.


I agree. Putting aside the cost of raising a puppy/litter and the price (and I can't think of any other area that people criticise prices in this way and think that breeders should somehow be out of pocket) which is rarely much more than covering costs (on average).

The cost of a puppy in my breed is £600 - £700. Even at £700 and living a minimum of 10 years, that works out at a cost of £70 per year.... £5.80 per month..... £1.35 per week.... or less than 20p per day! Is that really a high price to pay 

The amount may be more than many have sitting in the bank to go and spend on the spur of the moment, but then I don't think puppies should be bought on the spur of the moment.


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## victoria171168 (Apr 8, 2013)

I have had many breeds of dogs , some rescued, some born here and others from breeders.

All dogs come with potential issues and even with the best health checks can still encounter problems. 
My newfoundland pup has had £10,000 spent on him this year alone and yet his parents were health checked and tested and he wasnt cheap to buy after I lost my last Newfoundland.

Jessie my rescue cost us £3000 to get well after we had rescued her, she came from a rescue facility which I wouldnt put my enemy's in.

Merlin was born here and has the best we can afford and yet has a dodgy stomach .The litter from his mum Jessie was unexpected and cost us £1000's in costs and we never recovered that money (she was already pregnant when we rescued her so not an intentional breeding).

There are pluses and minuses for every avenue, good insurance is a must nowadays and it costs us more for this than their other costs per month.
Good rescues dont make a huge profit and yes their are puppies and young dogs that need homes as well as ones that are rehomed due to loss of homes,etc. 
I wouldnt preclude a breed but with three children you will need as much info as possible and puppies are easier in that it is your responsability to train and work with them.

I am sorry for the loss of your furkid, its so hard and while I tend to rehome instantly it doesnt always work that way for others. I still miss my boy I lost last year and though i have a young pup it hasnt taken away the heartache though he does keep me busy and on my toes and I wouldnt part with him.

Its just that the one I lost was my heart, soul and best friend but Max is still my friend just not to the same level.good luck whichever way you go


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sosha said:


> Yep. Agreed. though you could substitute "Ill-informed" sometimes.


I disagree 

With the availability of so much info re breeding online, there is no excuse for anyone to randomly breed from their dog without first researching the vital health tests.


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## yogurt (Oct 13, 2013)

I just started with my daughter junior handling, because she loves animals and wanted to have fun at 14. The age where you want to keep them interested in things they enjoy. She is doig well and breed her golden for the first time. We asked the same thing when getting started and no one would allow her to buy a show dog without it costing 3,000. We went to a breeder that was doing the same things the big money breeders were and decided to try it. Our dog just happen to have the top golden bloodline in the U.S. for best of breed. Now, we breed with another young man who helped us and his dog just won against all odds in a large metropolitan show. 

My thing is when we want others to get started, if they all stop from doing it correctly, then you have backyard breeders. But, if done properly with assistance as we've had with the not so prominent AKC people, then you can do it right. 

Cost is justified for 1200.00 and I'll explain. Breeding with a male, 1200.00, cardiac test, hips xrays and elbows, dna testing, eye testing to make sure that we are not passing on any horrible things to our pet owners. Special food during welping to maintain the best possible outcome. Advertise to find quality good homes, not on the corner of the road, traveling to the shows so you can make sure the dog is justified first and foremost to make other babies and one weekend can range over 400 to 500.00 carefully depending on where you go. So, when you want a quality puppy, maybe think about what goes into it. It's not throwing to dogs in the backyard and hoping for babies. One we have will never be bred, because she has bad skin. So, we feed her daily and love her as our own. Some pass the dogs on to homes for pets, but I'm attached to my dogs, so they stay. 

We are Due with "Allis Palace Mayce a Star" any day we're in Michigan. I'm praying she's Okay and she is over due 5 days. So, I'm not sure that makes people angry or sad, but I also do rescue living on a farm in the country where I receive approximately 1 litter a year at least and multiple dogs that are thrown out because of bad training, breeding, etc. So, choose wisely so later you won't have to find them a home.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

in comparison to inflation etc I dont feel they have gone up 
in the 80s I paid 150, early 90s 250, late 90s 350, 2005 650 & 675
Average now in Scotland 750 England 800-900 but these are for pups with several generations of health testing


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## Loopymoo (Sep 28, 2013)

In response to many people's disagreement that dogs from rescues shouldn't be rehomed with children, I would like to add that many rescues WILL NOT rehome where there are small children anyway because with the best will in the world, even if a dog has come in with full history and a lifetime of behaving around children, then rescue cannot make the guarantee that they will behave around unfamiliar children. Although most of them will make a case by case judgement.

I would also say that if someone is selling cheap puppies, then I wouldn't go near them. When you're researching for a new pup, breeder reputation, health tests on BOTH parents must take priority over cost. If you can't afford to buy a pup from good stock, then wait until your kids are older to get a rescue dog OR save up for a pup from decent parents. ALSO, if you can't afford the cost of a good healthy pup just yet, then when you do get him/her make sure you have good pet insurance because if anything happens you won't find yourself too much out of pocket.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

650 pounds doesn't sound very expensive. That's just half of what a puppy costs in Sweden (I paid 12000 Swedish crowns, which in todays currency is 1161 pounds, for my dog). 

I think it's good that puppies are a bit expensive. In Sweden you pay about 650 pounds for a cross breed or a rescue (although we don't have very many rescues) and even if it sometimes encourage people to breed irresponsibly just to earn money, I think it's good that even the "cheap" dogs are a bit expensive. 

I believe that people are more likely to take care of something that they have paid a lot of money for, which means that they don't give up the dog just because it's not cute anymore or because it doesn't behave the way they want etc. 

It often takes a lot more planning to buy a puppy if it's a bit expensive, so people are less likely to buy a puppy on impulse. When I bought my Aussie I was studying and worked extra in a restaurant for about a year before I could afford to buy a dog, so I had a lot of time to think the whole thing through. I knew it was right for me to get a dog and in no way would I have given up on her easily when I had worked so hard to be able to buy her. 

Personally I believe that's one of the reasons that we hardly have any rescues or stray dogs in Sweden. There used to be a problem with stray cats. People would buy a kitten cheap or get one for free for the kids when they moved to their summer houses in the country and in the fall, when they returned to the city, they'd just up and leave and leave the cat behind. People would just leave their cats when they got tired of them (or try till kill them in cruel and not always effective ways). 

A lot of cat rescues started to inform about this problem in the media and with a lot of information about spaying and neutering, responsible breeding etc and people became more aware, both those that bred cats and people buying cats. Most people doesn't give away kittens for free anymore and they try to find responsible homes for their kittens. I can't say that the problem is resolved, but the cat's situation is a least a lot better and fewer cats end up in rescue.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Vicki said:


> 650 pounds doesn't sound very expensive. That's just half of what a puppy costs in Sweden (I paid 12000 Swedish crowns, which in todays currency is 1161 pounds, for my dog).
> 
> I think it's good that puppies are a bit expensive. In Sweden you pay about 650 pounds for a cross breed or a rescue (although we don't have very many rescues) and even if it sometimes encourage people to breed irresponsibly just to earn money, I think it's good that even the "cheap" dogs are a bit expensive.
> 
> ...


You think people take better care of things they paid for even when that 'thing' is a living creature? I agree with most of what you've put, but I'm not sure about the bit in bold. The kind of people who would take care of a dog _because it cost a lot_, by default sound like the type of people who do not take seriously a living creatures needs (if they did, then regardless of how much they paid they would take equally good care of them). I understand what you are saying, but when it comes to an animal, the sort of people that are going to really understand and put the needs of the animal first, are the sort of people who would do that regardless of how much they paid for a dog.

I can't imagine any dog home that I respected taking better care of a dog simply because they spent a lot of him or her.


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## Scabbers (Jul 26, 2013)

Oh GOD pandoras box has been opened all right!


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## Scabbers (Jul 26, 2013)

Loopymoo said:


> In response to many people's disagreement that dogs from rescues shouldn't be rehomed with children, I would like to add that many rescues WILL NOT rehome where there are small children anyway because with the best will in the world, even if a dog has come in with full history and a lifetime of behaving around children, then rescue cannot make the guarantee that they will behave around unfamiliar children. Although most of them will make a case by case judgement.
> 
> I would also say that if someone is selling cheap puppies, then I wouldn't go near them. When you're researching for a new pup, breeder reputation, health tests on BOTH parents must take priority over cost. If you can't afford to buy a pup from good stock, then wait until your kids are older to get a rescue dog OR save up for a pup from decent parents. ALSO, if you can't afford the cost of a good healthy pup just yet, then when you do get him/her make sure you have good pet insurance because if anything happens you won't find yourself too much out of pocket.


You do realise that some shelters rehome puppies too? Some dogs are born in a cage....


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## lulubel (Apr 28, 2011)

I don't agree with the argument that people are more likely to take care of something that's cost a lot. From my experience, people forget about the money side of things a while after the "thing" concerned has been paid for. And if people do value things more highly if they've paid more for them, what's going to happen when the £600 puppy chews a hole in the £1000 sofa (for example)?

Regarding rescues, I think the advice to not get a rescue if you've got young children is just silly. My brother and his wife got a rescue dog a while back, and their children (5 and 3) adore the dog, the dog adores them, and they have a fantastic relationship. But they're good parents. They know how to manage a mixed family of children and animals. I know there are plenty of parents out there who will just shove them all out to play together unattended, and immediately blame the dog if something goes wrong.

If you're having trouble finding the right rescue dog locally, or most of the rescues won't place a dog with you because you've got young children, look further afield. I know there are people on this forum who will condemn me for saying this (but look at my location first), but there are many, many lovely dogs and puppies available from reputable rescues outside the UK. They home check, assess the needs of the family and the dog, and only approve the adoption if they're confident it's going to work.

You have a lot of choices available to you if the price of a pedigree puppy is out of reach.

That said, I do understand why puppies from good breeders are expensive. Breeding responsibly is a very expensive process.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Apollo cost me £80 and he was the outcome of an 'accidental' breeding, (the teenage daughter took the dog out and mated it with a friends dog behind her mothers back). Apollo has some issues from not being socialised properly with people as a young puppy, I was the first person to really do anything with him other than just stick some crappy adult dry food down for him to eat. but health wise we haven't had any problems (yet), he is fully insured I looked around for a long time before I saw the advert for him and his siblings, I wouldn't have paid out a fortune for a pedigree dog with health tested parents at that point because I just couldn't afford it. my next dog will be a properly bred dog with health tested parents which will probably cost me a small fortune but as I want a Labrador next I know all the issues they can have, I've been very lucky with Apollo and I always worry he is going to have HD but it something I will have to deal with if it happens, I know someone that went and bought two collie puppies for £250 for both and one had to have a hip replacement at just a year old as he had such bad hips, his sister shows no signs of HD.

if you don't want to pay out a fortune for a puppy then don't, there are plenty of cheaper litters to be found online you just have to remember that there is more of a chance of problems. I know I shouldn't of got Apollo because he came from a bad place but I couldn't leave him there. I honestly cant fathom at £80 each that the lady I got him from made any real money from the puppies and likewise I've never spotted an advert by her since, two of his siblings ended up in rescues within the first year of their lives and another was sold on at 5 months old. so Apollos obviously lucky he ended up with us rather than another family that would've gotten bored and might not of been able to deal with any of his issues


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Apollo2012 said:


> if you don't want to pay out a fortune for a puppy then don't, there are plenty of cheaper litters to be found online you just have to remember that there is more of a chance of problems. I know I shouldn't of got Apollo because he came from a bad place but I couldn't leave him there. *I honestly cant fathom at £80 each that the lady I got him from made any real money from the puppies* and likewise I've never spotted an advert by her since, two of his siblings ended up in rescues within the first year of their lives and another was sold on at 5 months old. so Apollos obviously lucky he ended up with us rather than another family that would've gotten bored and might not of been able to deal with any of his issues


Can't you? I can. According to your post the breeder did no health tests, paid no stud fees, fed crappy food, didn't even spend time socialising the dogs, and sold to people without home checks (otherwise why did some end up in rescue and being sold on?) Her outlay would have been negligible and just about every penny she charged would have been profit.

I agree with you that Apollo was extremely lucky to have found such a caring owner as yourself, who will love him and cherish him and nurse him through any illnesses/problems his bad breeding may have caused, but that's exactly what it was: luck - and his litter brothers and sisters have not been so lucky. And *that* is why it is wrong to advise people to buy "cheap" dogs: because for every dog bred by an uncaring breeder who finds a good home, there are several who don't. The more people who buy cheap dogs, the more unscrupulous breeders will breed and sell them.

It is very hard to walk away and leave a pup in such circumstances, and I am sure that, like you, I wouldn't have been able to walk away and leave Apollo there. But, hard as it sounds. that's what breeders like these rely on - and sadly every caring person who buys a pup instead of walking away is perpetuating the problem. So I wouldn't advise anyone to answer adverts for "cheap" pups at all.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Apollo2012 said:


> *if you don't want to pay out a fortune for a puppy then don't, there are plenty of cheaper litters to be found online* you just have to remember that there is more of a chance of problems. I know I shouldn't of got Apollo because he came from a bad place but I couldn't leave him there. I honestly cant fathom at £80 each that the lady I got him from made any real money from the puppies and likewise I've never spotted an advert by her since, two of his siblings ended up in rescues within the first year of their lives and another was sold on at 5 months old. so Apollos obviously lucky he ended up with us rather than another family that would've gotten bored and might not of been able to deal with any of his issues


I echo Spellweaver in the fact that just because Apollo was lucky is certainly not a reason to advise something to look for cheaper litters online  You've said yourself that two pups ended up in rescue by a year, and another sold on  THIS is one of the many reasons why you should not by a 'cheap' puppy. Yes, Apollo got lucky but clearly the breeder put very little care, thought, or effort into breeding, raising, nor homing her pups (as is evident by their lack of socialisation and how many pups were then passed on). Ironically those charging very little for pups are often the same people whose pups end up in rescue, and the breeders who have put very little into the litter, and are simply breeding for the sake of it/cute pups/a quick buck (this is not to say that all breeders who charge a lot are good breeders either of course).

When buying a 'cheap' pup online you have to remember more than just that there is a chance of problems. You have to think about where that pup came from, what you have encouraged, what happens to the other siblings in the litter, in other words, there are serious ethical considerations to take on board as well.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Apollo2012 said:


> *if you don't want to pay out a fortune for a puppy then don't, there are plenty of cheaper litters to be found online* you just have to remember that there is more of a chance of problems. I know I shouldn't of got Apollo because he came from a bad place but I couldn't leave him there. I honestly cant fathom at £80 each that the lady I got him from made any real money from the puppies and likewise I've never spotted an advert by her since, two of his siblings ended up in rescues within the first year of their lives and another was sold on at 5 months old. so Apollos obviously lucky he ended up with us rather than another family that would've gotten bored and might not of been able to deal with any of his issues


But that's encouraging the backyard breeders to breed even more, especially if they're already cutting corners, which I would imagine the majority are doing.


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## MariaB (Aug 28, 2013)

HandsomeHound said:


> Sadly, that's not always true. Both my rescues have been good pedigree dogs that must've cost a lot of money, but it didn't stop their original owners thinking nothing about disposing of them when they became surplus to requirements.


Did the rescue centre tell you that the owners thought nothing of getting rid of their pets?

Just curious because I used to work for a rescue centre in Surrey and we never gave an animal over with negative information about its previous owners unless the animal suffered from previous cruelty issues. Many people who bring in their cats and dogs do so because their circumstances have changed and its become impossible to keep them. Their are many heartbroken people having, through changing circumstances, to give up on a loved friend.


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## Canarie (Sep 4, 2013)

Hi,
Would totally disagree with your advised reason for not getting a rescue puppy.
Have you actually looked at Dogs for Adoption & Rescue - DogsBlog.com Or looked at How to adopt - pupsneedinghomes is as it says only for puppies.
Often the pups are in homes due to an unwanted litter due to a irresponsible owner.
There is no guarantee that because you are spending so much money your puppy is going to be any better than a rescue puppy.
Why shop for a puppy when you can adopt one,knowing you are rescuing one and giving it a wonderful life?
I don't mean to get on a soap box,but,rescue dogs/puppies are in rescue shelters for so many reasons including owners who bring there 6/7 month pup in as the novelty has worn off and the pup is now no longer wanted having done no training with him/her.
I now have my second rescue dog,my first beloved rescue dalmation having RIP.
I now have a year old Beagle cross,as I am typing this she is fast asleep on my lap...
Gill


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I disagree
> 
> With the availability of so much info re breeding online, there is no excuse for anyone to randomly breed from their dog without first researching the vital health tests.


Oddly, there are still many people that do not even own a computer let alone know how to research something they have never hear of in the first place.

To many people an unspayed bitch equals having a litter or two to make money and have some fun, in either order.


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

*sigh*.... I only pop back to this forum occasionally these days and every time i do I remember why I avoid it 

My head hurts


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

Not everyone that sells a litter cheaply is a back yard breeder, some breeders who breed for their own purposes often dont charge huge sums for the other pups in the litter, because they havent bred to make money, they have bred to get pups for their use and would rather the right home for the remaining than the money coming in.


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## Loopymoo (Sep 28, 2013)

Scabbers said:


> You do realise that some shelters rehome puppies too? Some dogs are born in a cage....


Of course, but if someone buys a puppy from a shelter they know that they have no idea of the health of the pup other than it's been wormed and de-flea'd. When they are duped by these BYB into buying a pedigree pup for £650, they may have a 5-gen chart or whatever, but they may not come with all the necessary health certs of the parents. So the person goes away with a pup for £650, where they could pay £150 and get one with just as little health info from the shelter.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Apollo2012 said:


> if you don't want to pay out a fortune for a puppy then don't, there are plenty of cheaper litters to be found online you just have to remember that there is more of a chance of problems.


Why on earth would you recommend someone to go to a byb?


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## fluke13 (Jan 7, 2013)

Have had all mine over the years from rescues for the price of a donation. But then I have never wanted a pedigree and have always had Heinz 57 dog's and they have all lived to be a grand old age.


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## Forestwalker (Jan 26, 2018)

People will charge what customers are prepared to pay. It's as simple as that. While people pay the extortionate asking price, the price will go up. If breeders were left with unsold litters, the price would come down. I've bred beautiful, health-checked litters and charged very reasonable prices. I can tell you, having read the special pleading from breeders on this site, it's pure profiteering.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Forestwalker said:


> People will charge what customers are prepared to pay. It's as simple as that. While people pay the extortionate asking price, the price will go up. If breeders were left with unsold litters, the price would come down. I've bred beautiful, health-checked litters and charged very reasonable prices. I can tell you, having read the special pleading from breeders on this site, it's pure profiteering.


Why are you replying to a 5 year old thread.??..


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## Forestwalker (Jan 26, 2018)

Lexiedhb said:


> Why are you replying to a 5 year old thread.??..


The thread popped up when I posed the question. Are you saying it's no longer relevant? And I could ask why you were looking at a 5 year old thread!


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## adamantis (Mar 14, 2014)

Forestwalker said:


> The thread popped up when I posed the question. Are you saying it's no longer relevant? And I could ask why you were looking at a 5 year old thread!


 Because when you post on something, it bumps the thread to the top of the page.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Forestwalker said:


> The thread popped up when I posed the question. Are you saying it's no longer relevant? And I could ask why you were looking at a 5 year old thread!


Replying to a thread, however old, brings it to the top of the forum, just as posting a new thread would.
Almost certainly irrelevant right now being that OP was last seen nearly 5 years ago.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Forestwalker said:


> People will charge what customers are prepared to pay. It's as simple as that. While people pay the extortionate asking price, the price will go up. If breeders were left with unsold litters, the price would come down. I've bred beautiful, *health-checked *litters and charged very reasonable prices. I can tell you, having read the special pleading from breeders on this site, it's pure profiteering.


Health checked.... or health _tested_?


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## Forestwalker (Jan 26, 2018)

BlueJay said:


> Replying to a thread, however old, brings it to the top of the forum, just as posting a new thread would.
> Almost certainly irrelevant right now being that OP was last seen nearly 5 years ago.


Oh I see. It's one of those forums where everyone piles in disagreeably. I'll leave you all to it. Bye!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

What a weird person, must have suddenly realised that we actually know what we're talking about


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Forestwalker said:


> Oh I see. It's one of those forums where everyone piles in disagreeably. I'll leave you all to it. Bye!


Bye!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Nowt as queer as folk....


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I


melar said:


> Our beautiful dog died recently and whilst nothing could EVER replace him the house feels so empty. We now have no pets as we were getting a cat a while ago but that fell through. We have been advised not to get a rescue dog as we have 3 small children. We understand and can manage the costs of owning a dog as we had one for 10 years but just dont have £650 cash to buy one! When we bought George 10 years ago he cost £200 and was pedigree Border Collie. Even cross breeds are double that now, why is this?


I never paid for a dog until 13 years ago, I initially had two Jack Russells friends litters around 1982. I got a Staffie in 2005 he was £350.00 he sadly died just before Christmas.

I believe the increase in cost is two fold, one the time and money spent by breeders to ensure they have strong and good temperament puppies and to ensure as much as possible they are going to their forever home. Not forgetting prices increase.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

sskmick said:


> I
> 
> I never paid for a dog until 13 years ago, I initially had two Jack Russells friends litters around 1982. I got a Staffie in 2005 he was £350.00 he sadly died just before Christmas.
> 
> I believe the increase in cost is two fold, one the time and money spent by breeders to ensure they have strong and good temperament puppies and to ensure as much as possible they are going to their forever home. Not forgetting prices increase.


There's also the perfume syndrome for some. If it costs a lot of money, it must be good. Not for all breeders but many.


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