# Controlling Predatory Chasing - Anyone been on a course?



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Over the past year I have read alot regarding how to control chasing, things to practice, etc & although we have made progress I still know that should either of my dogs catch sight of any animal running they will be off & no amount of me calling them, the promise of treats, toys, etc will deflect their attention from the chase. 

Tbh, I don't think it matters how 'exciting' & fun I make myself on walks, mothing is as much a sfun as chasing a rabbit, pheasant, hare, etc. 

It's now starting to worry me as there are lots of deer in the area where we live & I am concerned that if the dogs catching sight of them they will b*gger off & either get lost or end up being run over. I saw a lurcher get hit by a car this morning whilst chasing a deer (it was awful  ) & this has made me so worried & I need to sort this out.

I can't keep both dogs on a long line at all times, I can't always walk them separately so in order to try & work on this issue I have contacted 'Company of Animals' who have a working farm in Surrey for a few one-to-one training sessions with their trainer & with their animals.

It is a long way from where I live but I can't find anyone closer who can offer work with animals. I really don't see the point of attending classes with just a trainer & no animals present as this is not replicating what can occur when we are out. I need to have help when the situation arises not on just preventing the chase from starting as I won't always be vigilant.

Just wondered if anyone had any experience of these courses or knew of any closer to Norfolk.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

It might be a long shot, have you thought about finding someone who does gundog training? They're taught steadiness to game, and are expected to sit and wait while birds fly, run, shot and flap etc around them, as well as ground game running past like rabbits, hares, deer, foxes etc, etc. Not to mention all the other dogs and activities going on around them. 

Might be worth contacting a recommended trainer, and explaining you are interested in the steadiness bit, see if they can help you.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Training alternate behaviour takes time, but you end up with a happy dog and owner. 

Yes, as the more intelligent of our posters has said, gundog clubs or WT clubs are excellent places to get help. :thumbup:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It might be a long shot, have you thought about finding someone who does gundog training? They're taught steadiness to game, and are expected to sit and wait while birds fly, run, shot and flap etc around them, as well as ground game running past like rabbits, hares, deer, foxes etc, etc. Not to mention all the other dogs and activities going on around them.
> 
> Might be worth contacting a recommended trainer, and explaining you are interested in the steadiness bit, see if they can help you.


That's a good idea, I will have a look for some more local to where I am. I really don't want to drive 2hrs to the place that I mentioned but it sounds fantastic in that they have naimals there to work with. Tbh, if it meant it would help then I would drive anywhere! The only problem is that i couldn't take Roxy to a class as she is reactive with other dogs so it would need to be one-to-one, i could always contact people & ask I suppose



SleepyBones said:


> Can you clarify that Cleo? (1)"controling" chasing means that they are allowed some of their own normal chasing but can be recalled from any chase when the handler thinks its appropriate. (2) Some people seem to interpete 'controling' chasing as stopping the dog from chasing anything. I just don't know which you mean, reason for clarification.
> 
> Anyway below is one training reinforcement exercise which is part of the early stages of training for No 1 above, no 2 (stopping chasing) is only fairly reliable dogs with low motivations for chasing one or 2 species but is completly unreliable for multi species, highly motivated dogs, each dog must be seen in its own individual right. For the later types of dog allowing chases & recalling from multi species under all circumstances must be trained so no matter what happens the dog will recall.
> 
> ...


I don't think I could stop them chasing all together as they have quite strong prey drives. Is it fair to try & stop this natural instinct all together or by allowing them to chase certain things I yhave added to this behaviour/

With Toby (the older dog GSD/Lab) I would say that by allowing him to chase & then recalling him has improved this behaviour. He has realised that being called back doesn't mean the end of his fun & he can chase again later. With Roxy (GSD) though I'm not so sure.

I can't look at the link as i'm at work & Youtube is banned but I don't want to sue an ecollar as Roxy previously had anxiety issues & didn't enjoy her walks. Now she is much better & less stressed when out & I want this to continue.



ClaireandDaisy said:


> Yey! The kick`em, shock `em, whip `em, aren`t we big we can hurt small animals with merely a battery and a button brigade are awake.
> 
> This is a common problem. It would be, if you think about it.  Dogs are hunters. Therefore we use training to reshape the drive to hunt. Some dogs are more driven than others so you have to work harder.
> The solution is to improve basic training, focus the prey drive on to an acceptable substitute (toys etc) and use a line while they are still work in progress.
> ...


Completely agree. I also recognise how much fun it is for them but seeing the accident today has made me really worried. I really don't believe that I can focus this drive on to a toy though, what toy could possibly be that exciting?! Also she would be so far away from me at that point that how could I even get her attention?

I have worked on this with Toby for over a year now & I think we have slight improvements but I think his age has also helped. With Roxy being much younger & much more excitbale I really don't think this is going to happen without some professional help.

I think that I can practise with a long line every day & this will not make a difference. Her recall (imo) only impoved when she was off the long line & was making choices for herself. Even last night she waits to be told she can go for a swim (I don't know why she now does this - I didn't teach her! Initially she just used to dive in but now waits !!) but i don;t think she would do this before beginning a chase!

Maybe I should read my book by David Ryan again ......


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Completely agree. I also recognise how much fun it is for them but seeing the accident today has made me really worried. I really don't believe that I can focus this drive on to a toy though, what toy could possibly be that exciting?! Also she would be so far away from me at that point that how could I even get her attention?
> 
> I have worked on this with Toby for over a year now & I think we have slight improvements but I think his age has also helped. With Roxy being much younger & much more excitbale I really don't think this is going to happen without some professional help.
> 
> ...


I think you'd be surprised just how exciting a toy can be  my bitch Tau had very little drive to retrieve initially, surprising given she's a retriever, but I think because Indie always took over, she tended to take a back seat. But now, after building up her drive and at the same time her steadiness, she's by far the strongest desire out of both of them, and is by far the steadiest to anything dashing about or moving.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think you'd be surprised just how exciting a toy can be  my bitch Tau had very little drive to retrieve initially, surprising given she's a retriever, but I think because Indie always took over, she tended to take a back seat. But now, after building up her drive and at the same time her steadiness, she's by far the strongest desire out of both of them, and is by far the steadiest to anything dashing about or moving.


Thinking about it, (although I should be working!!), Roxy love to play 'leave' at home - all bloody night sometimes! She will bring her most fave toy in drop it on my lap, I then have to throw it & say 'leave' although sometimes she;s allowed to just chase it. She is so good at 'leaving' & will sit (when told) for quite while ... I've even forgotten & left the room to come back with her still sitting looking at the toy.

Maybe I need to get her to associate the 'leave' command with the running animal ... I'm just not sure how :confused5:

Toby is most interested in food & find 'leave' when it comes to his dinner almost painful! But it's Roxy that I'm most worried about when it comes to chasing as I'm confident with toby that he would only run so far


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Thinking about it, (although I should be working!!), Roxy love to play 'leave' at home - all bloody night sometimes! She will bring her most fave toy in drop it on my lap, I then have to throw it & say 'leave' although sometimes she;s allowed to just chase it. She is so good at 'leaving' & will sit (when told) for quite while ... I've even forgotten & left the room to come back with her still sitting looking at the toy.
> 
> Maybe I need to get her to associate the 'leave' command with the running animal ... I'm just not sure how :confused5:
> 
> Toby is most interested in food & find 'leave' when it comes to his dinner almost painful! But it's Roxy that I'm most worried about when it comes to chasing as I'm confident with toby that he would only run so far


It's a very basic start, one toy they love, I use tennis balls for Tau, ask her to sit, and roll it around close to her, and build that up into throwing it around and even over her. Obviously that takes a lot of training over several weeks, building up the number of toys you can throw, and the distance at which you trust your dog to remain steady. I do use a grumbly grrrrrr to keep her in a sit if I think her bum is moving, but more importantly, a hugely great big fuss when she gets it right. If she does move and runs after something, I don't make a big issue of it, just call her back and put her back on the spot she moved from, and start again, making sure I move in a bit closer, and keep myself between her and the retrieve initially. She doesn't get to retrieve any of the balls, or toys, I move around and pick them up and throw them about, and she has to sit. I finish the *game* by picking them all up, walk up to her and release her from the sit and give her a big fuss, then it's either a whizzy game of free retrieves, or a fun blind retrieve, which she loves, and I'll have set up before we even start the steadiness training. You can see in the way they come back to you, just how proud they are when they get training right, I've got a pic of Indie I'll dig out, when she'd finished a track, and her face just says it all. So if you get that desire in there for the steadiness, it *should* work when you build up to having fabby live stuff running around. Both mine will occasionally chase after stuff, but I have called them off game, including rabbits, although I would never say the temptation wouldn't ever get to them, which is why it's important to keep the training up, so it's always in there.

Will go dig out that pic of Indie, it's one of my favourites of her, really captures the whole essence of working with your dog for me.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

That's the sort of smile you want when you've just finished a bit of nice training 

Found a few of Tau sitting steady as well....




























After which, she's allowed to do this.....


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I don't think I could stop them chasing all together as they have quite strong prey drives.


I have never heard of high drive dogs or even milder dogs being reliably stopped from chasing. The example in that reinforcement exercise vid is when that dog went after that herd of deer, he has a vid somewhere else on youtube which explains that dog has been trained since a pup never to chase deer in Richmond and that day it suddenly went after them. It was then that the training reinforcement exercise preceding that live footage was put to the test & the leave worked straight away followed by an additional recall whistle reinforcer.



> Is it fair to try & stop this natural instinct all together or by allowing them to chase certain things I have added to this behaviour/


In my opinion it certainly is not & if we could ask our dogs for their opion I think I would get unamimous support. Our dogs are born with needs we can never share, never be a part of and never emotionally understand, their freedom to express themselves as a hunting species are the fundamentals to their very existence & that expression will maintain an excellent standard of mental health because they achieve the emotional expression, forcing them to adopt a humans life style & suffer at the end of a lead most of their lives is little wonder so many dogs get problems



> With Toby (the older dog GSD/Lab) I would say that by allowing him to chase & then recalling him has improved this behaviour. He has realised that being called back doesn't mean the end of his fun & he can chase again later. With Roxy (GSD) though I'm not so sure.


And theres your own personal proof of the above, the advantage of controlled chasing is for the other species, it keeps them with a natural wariness & the look out for out of control dogs which make up the vast majority of dogs chasing other species. A dog was shot in Richmond about 3 years chasing a herd, apparently the warden was begging the owners to stop it before he shot but no chance of that so he had to shoot it, with a trained dog just simply call them out & no problems.

.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's a very basic start, one toy they love, I use tennis balls for Tau, ask her to sit, and roll it around close to her, and build that up into throwing it around and even over her. Obviously that takes a lot of training over several weeks, building up the number of toys you can throw, and the distance at which you trust your dog to remain steady. I do use a grumbly grrrrrr to keep her in a sit if I think her bum is moving, but more importantly, a hugely great big fuss when she gets it right. If she does move and runs after something, I don't make a big issue of it, just call her back and put her back on the spot she moved from, and start again, making sure I move in a bit closer, and keep myself between her and the retrieve initially. She doesn't get to retrieve any of the balls, or toys, I move around and pick them up and throw them about, and she has to sit. I finish the *game* by picking them all up, walk up to her and release her from the sit and give her a big fuss, then it's either a whizzy game of free retrieves, or a fun blind retrieve, which she loves, and I'll have set up before we even start the steadiness training. You can see in the way they come back to you, just how proud they are when they get training right, I've got a pic of Indie I'll dig out, when she'd finished a track, and her face just says it all. So if you get that desire in there for the steadiness, it *should* work when you build up to having fabby live stuff running around. Both mine will occasionally chase after stuff, but I have called them off game, including rabbits, although I would never say the temptation wouldn't ever get to them, which is why it's important to keep the training up, so it's always in there.
> 
> Will go dig out that pic of Indie, it's one of my favourites of her, really captures the whole essence of working with your dog for me.


I know that this isn't going to be an overnight cure - although with all the deer around I wish it was. I know that people will say to put her on a long line & in some ways I agree that this can be a useful training aid but her recall is usually good so really the long line would only be there to stop her running away which in it's self would be the safest option but would 'cure' the problem.

Despite my worries I am loathe to put her back on this as she has so much more fun now she is off the lead & her behaviour has been better, she is more reponsive to me, her general recall has improved which I believe is due to her having more freedom & therefore being less frustrated.

Some things to try at the weekend then .... what did I used to do with all my free time before the dogs???!!!!


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

Also, I have been told there is a different problem in your area for out of control dogs chasing or hunting after chinese water deer in reeds & that sort of habitat???

I'm told they can be predatory aggressive with dogs and have razor sharp tusk type canines which will just about take a dogs neck out, is there that sort of problem or high risk factor Norfolk & Suffolk way?

.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> I have never heard of high drive dogs or even milder dogs being reliably stopped from chasing. The example in that reinforcement exercise vid is when that dog went after that herd of deer, he has a vid somewhere else on youtube which explains that dog has been trained since a pup never to chase deer in Richmond and that day it suddenly went after them. It was then that the training reinforcement exercise preceding that live footage was put to the test & the 'leave' worked straight away followed by an additional recall whistle reinforcer.
> 
> In my opinion it certainly is not & if we could ask our dogs for their opion I think I would get unamimous support. Our dogs are born with needs we can never share, never be a part of and never emotionally understand, their freedom to express themselves as a hunting species are the fundamentals to their very existence & that expression will maintain an excellent standard of mental health because they achieve the emotional expression, forcing them to adopt a humans life style & suffer at the end of a lead most of their lives is little wonder so many dogs get problems
> 
> ...


Although I live in the countryside it's mostly arable land but there is some livestock so I avoid the areas where sheep & cattle are at the moment & will only return to the areas when they are bought in for the winter.

We tend to stick to open fields at the moment, which are great as there is alaso a river for the dogs to cool down in when the weather is hot. But there have been the odd deer that I have noticved (luckily the dogs didn't) but it's hard work being so vigilant all the time & I know that one day I won't be.

I have whistle which I just blow to get their attention & return to me but I think I need to use this as a 'command' rather than just a sound. I think there has been some posts on here about that ... I'll try & have look for them

I agree that they need to express themselves & their hunting instincts. I worry that by constantly denying them these needs will create problems so I do (rightly or wrongly) allow Roxy to hunt at times (Toby isn't interested - he just likes a chase).

When we are out Roxy will stop, listen then pounce like a cat to catch moles & shrews. She does this alot & enjoys it - I don't particularly like this behaviour but I don't feel it is fair to stop her doing things just because of my preference.

I am more interested in trying to control the chase & end it rather than stop this behaviour all together

I haven't noticed any chinese water deer in my area, just the roe deer so far


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Maybe I need to get her to associate the 'leave' command with the running animal ... I'm just not sure how


Check out that video when you get home, you need to do that or something very close that before you even think of trying it with a running animal. I have to go out now, bye, interesting listening to you.

.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Cleo38; this is a really excellent thread - and thanks SL for some great ideas and advice (not to mention beautiful photos!). I am currently working on Kilo's chasing as he has a high prey drive so will certainly put some of them into practice.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Cleo38; this is a really excellent thread - and thanks SL for some great ideas and advice (not to mention beautiful photos!). I am currently working on Kilo's chasing as he has a high prey drive so will certainly put some of them into practice.


The pics were gorgeous weren't they? I doubt Roxy would stay still long enough!

There has been some good advice & I think I need to get my expoectations to a workable level. I don't think I will stop this instaictive behaviour but do need to get more control of it.

Seeing the dog run over this morning really emphasised how imprtant this is 

Just wondered now how I should start training whistle commands (rather than just blowing if for a recall) - does anyone do this?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I need to get my expoectations to a workable level. I don't think I will stop this instaictive behaviour but do need to get more control of it.
> 
> Seeing the dog run over this morning really emphasised how imprtant this is


That is exactly how feel; the dog this morning must have been awful to witness .


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dogless said:


> That is exactly how feel; the dog this morning must have been awful to witness .


It was, I sort of feel guilty as well. I saw 2 dogs the Tues morning whilst driving to work (same strecth of road) waiting by the side of it. I thought there must be someone with them but couldn't see anyone - part of me though about stopping but I was already late for work so didn't.

Then this morning saw a deer shoot across the road with the two dogs running after it. A man in a van on the other side hit one of the dogs & the other ran off. Luckily it died instantly but it was horrible. I stopped & the driver was in tears, so was I  His friend told me that they were gypsies dogs & were always out on their own chsing animals across the fields.

It made me so angry, that poor dog & the porr man who has had a horrible start to his day. It was lucky that no one was hurt though & could have been worse.

I kept thinking though that maybe if I'd stopped the other day & taken the dogs this may not have happened .....


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

SleepyBones said:


> Also, I have been told there is a different problem in your area for out of control dogs chasing or hunting after chinese water deer in reeds & that sort of habitat???
> 
> I'm told they can be predatory aggressive with dogs and have razor sharp tusk type canines which will just about take a dogs neck out, is there that sort of problem or high risk factor Norfolk & Suffolk way?
> 
> .


A muntjac stag will tear the side of a dog and is more likely to kill the dog.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

These are a few pics and short videos of me incorporating the 'stop' whistle into training, I did post them a while back in the gundog section, but it's a bit lonely in there 

I thought I'd post a couple of pics and videos of the girls, haven't done any for ages, so here we go. I had Tau out first to do a bit of one to one training, I'm trying to instill 'out', the command I use to make her run directly away from me. She's been a bit sticky with this, and if there's been a retrieve set out on either the left or right as well, she tends to go for those. So, what I do is sit her, and throw the dummy out in front of us, with the command 'mark' which you use to get the dog to mark where the retrieve has fallen, I think they would do it anyway tbh, but that's what I've learnt to do. The dummy is only a short distance away, it's a 1lb green canvas dummy you can just see in the grass.










So then I get her to recall and heel with her back to the dummy, you can tell it's quite windy from her ears 










She's sat nice and steady so I give the command 'Out', and in this instance, raise my right hand up above my head, palm out with fingers spread. You can tell I've raised my right hand, any guesses why that might be?










And here she comes with the dummy......










Next, a short video, apols for the quality of these, you will have to lean your head over or turn your monitor round, one or the other, but it isn't easy to take a video and hold dummies/train your dog at the same time. Anyway, this first one, roughly illustrates that Tau knows the recall whistle without any other cues, such as a gesture, I've tried to hold the camera to see as much of her as possible, and failed miserably, and the wind makes the whistle difficult to hear, but hopefully you can make it out, I use two pips for recall, one pip for stop.



Next is a memory, which is where I've thrown out the dummy (not as in the analogy, but literally  ), then we've gone and done something else for a few mins, and in the meantime, I've walked round the field, so I can send her for the memory from a different angle.



This time, it's a recall exercise with Indie joining in......



And finally, I do just chuck the ball for them, and you can see here, they're both pretty good at avoiding distractions, as I throw the ball over each of them returning back to me.......



Hope they still work, I've just copied the post across.....


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Again fantastic pics SL, will have a look at the video when I get home.

I've found an article relating to whistle commands & training so am going to start with the at the weekend. 

I've said in previous posts that if I can call the dogs before the chase kicks in then I am 50/50 9not great odds compared to some people but ....) but i know that once they start running then the only thing that will stop them is either losing sight of the animal or tiredness.

Thinking about it .... again, I have been successful in recalling them from some ducks & a phesant - ONCE! But I think they realised that the birds were in flight & never going to be caught .... & were just letting me think my training was paying off


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Gundogs are taught from an early age the art of self control when it comes to livestock and game. It's a on going training requirement and the ideal scenario is that you can walk through the woods/forest and even work in the forest with your dog off lead with fezzies, partridge, deer, rabbit, hare squirrels and dog doesn't bat an eyelid. It is also a requirement that when the dog is out on its own hunting, toileting, retrieving and it disturbs game he can ignore it. 
I actually train mine to stop to movement. So that if anything moves the dog stops. Whether that is a running hare, running fezzie or whatever. Game birds can run 100 yards before they take flight. 
YOu don't say how old your dogs are and how many times they have chased. Chasing for a dog is a self rearding behaviour and it won't listen to anything or anyone once its had the delights of chasing. 
So TBH i wouldn;t wast my money on a 1-2-1 at a farm to try and stop the behaviour. I guess that they'll set the dogs up to fail and then when they break they'll be on them and put some kind of deterrent in. 
Teaching the "leave it" command is best, but needs to grow gradually in stages. It sounds like you've got some of the basics i nplace at home. This is good, then you can start throwing tennis balls around them and asking them to "leave it" Then you can go on to higher value items like dummies, dummies with wings on and dummies with rabbit fur on. You should bombproof them in the garden first, then move into the big wide world, and bombproof it again and again. When out walking and some thing moves make them sit, and watch it with the leave it command. You could also introduce a stop whistle, so that everytime you blow the whislte they stop. NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE. Then when you are really confident, seek out a gundog trainer with a rabbit/fezzie pen and get a 1-2-1 with them. Explain everything you've trained and now you want to put it to the test. PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU ARE 110% confident you can stop your dog or it won't chase but sit quietly. Get pen the owner to herd the rabbits and birds around the pen and around your dog, Keep them on lead initially and as the animals are running about repeat the leave it command. Once thats done take your dogs for a walk around the pen on lead, the pen owner will be able to judge whether your dogs are ready to be taken off lead or not. The downside to this training is that if they chase anything whilst under the training regime, it completely undermines what you are trying to do, so you will have to go back to the start. So you are going to have to be strict about countryside walks.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'd introduce the stop whistle, when you ask for a sit at heel, are your dogs both rescues, or am I thinking of someone else? Anyway, the way the stop is taught, is a single whistle peep, keep the noise quiet and low next to you, this encourages them to be quiet and steady as well. So ask for the sit, and give the whistle command, a single peeeeep. Build that in, until the dog is sitting to a stop whistle at heel, and then start to build up a bit of distance with the stop. Once you're facing them, you can start to build in the hand signal as well, I hold my arm up, so it breaks my silhouette, palm out and flat, combined with the stop whistle. If Tau's quite a long way away, and it's windy, I will increase the volume and length of the PEEEEEEEEEEEP to be sure she gets it. 

What I do with all of my training is make it into a game, and give them every opportunity to get it right. I also use the stop to distract my dogs, if I spot game before they do. So I'll recall and stop, meanwhile, behind them 100 yards away, a rabbit may well be taking it's chance to scurry off into the undergrowth.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grandad said:


> Gundogs are taught from an early age the art of self control when it comes to livestock and game. It's a on going training requirement and the ideal scenario is that you can walk through the woods/forest and even work in the forest with your dog off lead with fezzies, partridge, deer, rabbit, hare squirrels and dog doesn't bat an eyelid. It is also a requirement that when the dog is out on its own hunting, toileting, retrieving and it disturbs game he can ignore it.
> I actually train mine to stop to movement. So that if anything moves the dog stops. Whether that is a running hare, running fezzie or whatever. Game birds can run 100 yards before they take flight.
> YOu don't say how old your dogs are and how many times they have chased. Chasing for a dog is a self rearding behaviour and it won't listen to anything or anyone once its had the delights of chasing.
> So TBH i wouldn;t wast my money on a 1-2-1 at a farm to try and stop the behaviour. I guess that they'll set the dogs up to fail and then when they break they'll be on them and put some kind of deterrent in.
> Teaching the "leave it" command is best, but needs to grow gradually in stages. It sounds like you've got some of the basics i nplace at home. This is good, then you can start throwing tennis balls around them and asking them to "leave it" Then you can go on to higher value items like dummies, dummies with wings on and dummies with rabbit fur on. You should bombproof them in the garden first, then move into the big wide world, and bombproof it again and again. When out walking and some thing moves make them sit, and watch it with the leave it command. You could also introduce a stop whistle, so that everytime you blow the whislte they stop. NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE. Then when you are really confident, seek out a gundog trainer with a rabbit/fezzie pen and get a 1-2-1 with them. Explain everything you've trained and now you want to put it to the test. PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU ARE 110% confident you can stop your dog or it won't chase but sit quietly. Get pen the owner to herd the rabbits and birds around the pen and around your dog, Keep them on lead initially and as the animals are running about repeat the leave it command. Once thats done take your dogs for a walk around the pen on lead, the pen owner will be able to judge whether your dogs are ready to be taken off lead or not. The downside to this training is that if they chase anything whilst under the training regime, it completely undermines what you are trying to do, so you will have to go back to the start. So you are going to have to be strict about countryside walks.


The dogs are:
Toby - nearly 9ys old, GSD/Lab - came to live with us in Jan 2010
Roxy - nearly 3yrs, GSD (very excitable) - came to live with us in Nov 2010

Both dogs arefrom rescue centres & had multiple owners. They had no training when they came to live with us & neither had been walked (Toby was massively overweight whilst Roxy was very thin & unfit through this).

I rememeber the day Toby suddenly realised chasing was great (I posted on here about it) & Roxy has also learnt this. As we are in the countryside there is no boring walks for them (as has been suggested) everywhere we are there are birds, rabbits, hares, phesants, partridge, deer, etc - always something to chase.

We have been succsessful at home with the chickens, they are in a secure coop but one ran out when we opened the gate the other day & my OH shouted to Roxy to 'leave' - which she did . But II think it's the running of the animal that is the trigger & birds don't seem to get the dogs going as much as a fourlegged animal

I will continue with the training, maybe I have been lax recently but how do I teach a stop command with a whistle? I can do this with Toby using a hand signal (Roxy still just comes to me).

Also will gundog trainers come out & do one-to-one training with non gun dog breeds?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

SL - must have cross posted regarding the whistle commands! I have printed this off aswell ......


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> The dogs are:
> Toby - nearly 9ys old, GSD/Lab - came to live with us in Jan 2010
> Roxy - nearly 3yrs, GSD (very excitable) - came to live with us in Nov 2010
> 
> ...




YOU can only ask.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Don't see why they shouldn't - too many people get snotty over what a gun dog should be and behave like.

I've seen a boxer competing at a 'trial' ....... when he first started the owner didn't know his dog 'wasn't right for the job'

My old gun dog trainer was teaching a Jack Russell to retrieve rabbits ....


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## Honey Bee (Mar 29, 2011)

I just wanted to say that whistle training is a really affective method of training and works far more effectively in open countryside than calling or shouting. 

Honey was also a rescue and at 10 months had not even been walked on a lead. She was fascinated with birds, especially pheasants but we have taught her to leave them and now she does completely ignore them and all other birds, even when they fly up in front of her. 90% of the time she will ignore squirrels now unless the little horrors tease her. She is fascinated by their twitching tails so I have to be very vigilant. It is hard work and needs consistency. 

Deer, hares and rabbits are more difficult as there are none were we usually walk but I'm sure I could eventually also teach her to leave them. Unfortunately when we do see them it is when we are away and she is not familiar with the area. I tend to exercise extreme caution in these circumstances and keep her very close or on a long line. 

Teaching leave with a ball, toy or dummy is an excellent way to control their impulses safely and we have also had a lot of success with this. 
Good luck.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

As Grandad suggests - maybe teach the dog to drop to flush - anything that moves, dog sits. 

This goes nicely with the drop (sit) to whistle.

Whistles are the way to go - much more difficult to put stress and emotion in a whistle unlike verbal commands, a whistle travels further too.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

*I will continue with the training, maybe I have been lax recently but how do I teach a stop command with a whistle?*

Almost all my recalls are by whistle after I have taught the verbal "in command (come)", BUT, if your going to start a whistle recall, to make it high value conditioned command you need to condition a powerfull positive reinforcer fits, preferably over a period of 3 or 4 days

You first need to go to a place where the dog is not very distracted by things in the environment, once you've done that you condition a positive *pack* *drive* reinforcer, forget about treats they're just weak prey drive stimuli when the dogs in chase or high drive. The pack drive is all about your relationship with the dog, your dog will recall to you and above all for you & you alone, not a bit of low value reinforcer bubble gum, frankfurter butty or whatever, never heard of gundog owners using food for recalls.

The vid is the positive conditioning procedure of a tone but forget its a tone whistles, voice, burps, hooter, the positive conditioning process is all the same. Note what the guy says & shows, you keep going back all the time, never go forwards at all to the dog, best keep him on lead if you want to try this.

To help understand the psychology thats going on & the power of the pack drive your stimulating etc copy & past the paper at link 2 'Elementary, Domestic Canine Psychology - The drives'. Ignore the fact that he's conditiong a tone in the video it does not matter what audio sound you're using the pack drive positive conditioning is the same - No commands at this stage mind.

.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

That reminds me, the one thing I forgot to say, is when you're training, and stop your dog on the way back to you, don't recall them afterwards, walk up to them and release them. 

The only time you don't do that, is if you're then going to redirect them. The trick is, as with any training, don't allow yourself to get lazy, ie do the bit of leg work you need to, walking to your dog, walking round collecting the retrieve items, otherwise your dog starts to pre-empt the next command. Hope that makes sense


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

SleepyBones said:


> * naughty naughty naughty!!:hand::hand:]*


*

New rules Sleepy you cant post links or promote your ecollars on here anymore:thumbup::thumbup:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/176581-e-collars-associated-products.html*


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## arlow (Apr 20, 2011)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> Don't see why they shouldn't - too many people get snotty over what a gun dog should be and behave like.
> 
> I've seen a boxer competing at a 'trial' ....... when he first started the owner didn't know his dog 'wasn't right for the job'
> 
> My old gun dog trainer was teaching a Jack Russell to retrieve rabbits ....


Weiner dog!

YouTube - ‪Weiner Hunting Dog a Determined, Reliable Retriever‬‏


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lots of things to test out. I have been practising the wait command but do think I need to throw this in alot more whilst on walks, although am still not confident that this would work if either dog was in chase mode. 

I definitely need to use more whistle commands & will start tomorrow in the garden with low distractions.

Both dogs were great tonight & recalled every time but ... no animals, I saw the hares before the dogs did so was able to distract them!! 

I think I just doubt my ability at times & worry about what 'could' happen all the time. It does spur me on though to think that in a short space of time Roxy has learnt to 'leave' the cats (she thinks they want to play ball with her ) & the chickens which I was most suprised with - I thought she'd be a nightmare with them


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

if you do think about whistles I would reccomend Acme 210.5 or 211.5

ACME Whistles - Home

if you need dummies try these out

http://www.workingdogcompany.co.uk/results.php?category=1


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> To help understand the psychology thats going on & *the power of the pack drive [you are] stimulating*, etc[,]
> copy & past...


*'the power of the pack-drive'... * :lol: good one! :thumbup:

this is an excellent thread, thanks to S-L for the pics & videos, & the other posters for tips & encouragement.

building the reliability of recall with *Premack* is another option - there are many good videos on UTube, 
'_Premack_' as a search-term will bring them up; Premack uses highly-likely behaviors as payoff for doing un-likely ones, 
like "chase the fox-tail" or "play tug" as rewards for 'recall away from a running bunny'.

one sample - 
YouTube - ‪CU: Snap demos relaxing on mat and off-switch game‬‏ 
a terrierrrist being rewarded for being calm on a mat - the trainer gets very detailed, soft-blinks, still-tail, etc. 
Snap's reward is a game of *'Switch-on, Switch-off'* while chasing a fake-foxtail on a flirt-pole.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

But... as has been suggested here, how do I get a sit response to movement? And does this mean that I should stop EVERY chase? In some ways I don't think I can completely stop this, also as this is instinctive should I really be trying to suppress another natural behaviour? 

Personally I would rather get them to stop the chase when I recall them which I was starting to get with Toby (and still do). I know that some people may not agree with me letting them chase some animals but I feel that they do need to have this outlet at times . If we are evber in conservation areas or around livestock then obviously they are on leads but when we are out in open fields I want them to enjoy all aspects of their time outside.

Roxy is obsessed with water & when she was on her long line she wouldn't get out when told, I used to have to pull her in at times. Now she is off this & knows she can go in when she wants she comes when called out & won't stay in therre all evening. As I posted previiously that at times she waits until I say she can go in which I haven't taught her at all, just something she does now. I sort of feel the same about her chase instinct which was how Toby initially was.

Edited to say: Whilst I thank everyone for their replies (they have all been great & useful) I won't be using an ecollar for trying to resolve this. Although, I am grateful for everyone who has taken the time & trouble to comment on my thread


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> But... as has been suggested here, how do I get a sit response to movement? And does this mean that I should stop EVERY chase? In some ways I don't think I can completely stop this, also as this is instinctive should I really be trying to suppress another natural behaviour?
> 
> Personally I would rather get them to stop the chase when I recall them which I was starting to get with Toby (and still do). I know that some people may not agree with me letting them chase some animals but I feel that they do need to have this outlet at times . If we are evber in conservation areas or around livestock then obviously they are on leads but when we are out in open fields I want them to enjoy all aspects of their time outside.
> 
> Roxy is obsessed with water & when she was on her long line she wouldn't get out when told, I used to have to pull her in at times. Now she is off this & knows she can go in when she wants she comes when called out & won't stay in therre all evening. As I posted previiously that at times she waits until I say she can go in which I haven't taught her at all, just something she does now. I sort of feel the same about her chase instinct which was how Toby initially was.


try training them to be with you and at a safe distance say 20 yards. If they stray outside of that area, teach them not to by giving them a command like "that'll do" that way you have them loose and within a boundary so that everything is controlled. 
As for teaching sit to movement, you need to teach that obedience at home first and then out in the big wide world. So whilst your trainingthat obedience, their freedom has to be curtailed. By throwing things around them and getting them to sit everytime, The sit will eventually become a conditioned response. 
By the way you can also get rabbitskins from the Working Dog Company.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grandad said:


> if you do think about whistles I would reccomend Acme 210.5 or 211.5
> 
> ACME Whistles - Home
> 
> ...


Interesting ... I have a 210 already but I just played the sound of the 210.5 to compare & both dogs just came running in from the garden .... Toby even left his kong which is unheard of!!!! Needless to say I have ordered one 

Regarding the sit, this is something I try to do with them alot anyway; if they want to go through the door, when they want their dinner, when they want me to throw their ball, etc which i mainly started doing to get Roxy to calm down & to focus more rather than just have to have everything immediately. This is something I will defintely try to work on & improve


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Interesting ... I have a 210 already but I just played the sound of the 210.5 to compare & both dogs just came running in from the garden .... Toby even left his kong which is unheard of!!!! Needless to say I have ordered one
> 
> Regarding the sit, this is something I try to do with them alot anyway; if they want to go through the door, when they want their dinner, when they want me to throw their ball, etc which i mainly started doing to get Roxy to calm down & to focus more rather than just have to have everything immediately. This is something I will defintely try to work on & improve


this company is also very good

Quest Gundogs - Gundog Training Equipment


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I think I have some work to do. I have (if I'm honest) let things slip since Roxy has been easier on our walks. Things were so difficult for a while that I have relaxed a bit recently, which is good in one way (I've stopped worrying all the time) but I do need to continue (& up) the training when on walks as well.

Seeing the dog killed today has really made me realise that I do need to sort this out & not rely on luck & my vigilance all the time


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Jean Donaldson has an excellent protocol for distraction recalls for chasing dogs. Its in The Culture Clash I think. 

It basically uses Premack-ing - dog recalls and gets to chase. Obviously when you are working with real live 'prey' you are not going to allow the chase but you are working up to that.

I have worked hard on my dog who is high prey 'drive'. Small furries certainly don't go unnoticed. But on verbal cue he will stop dead in his tracks regardless of my position or how close his quarry is. He is not particularly toy motivated but very chase motivated and I use that to Premack his 'wait' cue. This is a probably the most proofed cue we have and acts as his 'leave' cue too. Its an all round "freeze and stop what you are doing" cue so I use it tens of times a day


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Sit to whistle:

Start with dog next or in front of you and in a distraction free zone (safe zone)

1. If dog sits already to command, start by saying 'SIT' and as they move butt to floor add the whistle - reduce the time delay between command and whistle - then move on to whistle closely followed by 'SIT' verbal and as they 'get it' drop the verbal. This uses a reward system since you are training a new skill - whatever your reward system is.

2. If dog sits to visual command (best for distance control), then start with introducing the whistle at the same time as the visual cue and then quickly move onto whistle/visual.

3. Once above it bedded in, move out of the safe zone and proof in different environments.

4. Move onto teaching it away from you with movement, use a long line first, and with the dog moving towards you blow whistle and if no sit then step towards to dog with arm raised or saying 'SIT' to engage the action. Repeat until dog can sit whilst moving towards you.

5. Move on to moving past you left/right or vice versa, still on long line and repeat above exercise until proofed.

6. Sit to flush then starts - when on a walk decide what it is you want your dog to 'SIT/Drop' to and start 'whistling' to the movement of said animal. Over time this develops into an 'auto' response and then you can try it off lead/long line.

This obviously can take a long time to get to - but at least along the way you will have taught your dogs to stop and look at you or sit to the whistle.

Good luck, and hopefully you'll find a gundog trainer who can help to guide you on this journey.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

tripod said:


> Jean Donaldson has an excellent protocol for distraction recalls for chasing dogs. Its in The Culture Clash I think.
> 
> It basically uses Premack-ing - dog recalls and gets to chase. Obviously when you are working with real live 'prey' you are not going to allow the chase but you are working up to that.
> 
> I have worked hard on my dog who is high prey 'drive'. Small furries certainly don't go unnoticed. But on verbal cue he will stop dead in his tracks regardless of my position or how close his quarry is. He is not particularly toy motivated but very chase motivated and I use that to Premack his 'wait' cue. This is a probably the most proofed cue we have and acts as his 'leave' cue too. Its an all round "freeze and stop what you are doing" cue so I use it tens of times a day


I was going to revisit the section of the book regarding this & the varying levels of training recall. I defintely think this is something that (unfortunately) won't be a 'quick fix' but now have some different things to work with that i have taken on board.

What does everyone think though regarding chasing? Is this something that should be avoided at all costs or is it instinctive behaviour that should be controlled rather than stopped?


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

All behaviour is modifiable - but the devil is in the details, it greatly depends on the trainer's abilities, the behaviour is question, the amount of experience (i.e. how long and how strong has this behaviour being rewarded) etc.

I think that every dog should be trained or managed to cope with his daily life. If that means that you walk your dog off leash where wildlife is likely to tempt than it is the two-legger's responsiblity to train and manage this behaviour.
It is not appropriate or safe to allow a dog to chase uncontrolled so this is an important issue. 
It is also important to say that management is down to human behaviour so can fail  that's why working on training all the while managing is essential


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> I have never heard of high drive dogs or even milder dogs being reliably stopped from chasing.


Damn my evil Malinois and Dutchies for making me think their high prey madness was under control!!! Probably just a plot to make me relax my whip and take control of the household with me in the omega position.

Now, that I've informed them of your opinion, they have begun to chase anything that moves.:thumbup1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Corinthian said:


> Damn my evil Malinois and Dutchies for making me think their high prey-madness was under control!!!
> Probably just a plot to make me relax my whip & take control of the household with me in the omega position.
> 
> ...I've informed them of your opinion, & they've begun to chase anything that moves. :thumbup1:


i would presume that includes chasing U?...  i hope U're in good shape.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I used to have a rescue lurcher, well a '*Long Dog*' really if you want to be technical.  He was Saluki x Greyhound x Whippet. He had a superbly high prey drive although once he caught up with his 'prey', he would sniff it, cock his leg and wander off sniffing instead which is probably why the gypsies abandoned him when they moved on and he became a stray. 

Anyway, in the early days, once we realised just how bad he really was, we set about training him, at a Working Trials class I used to attend and also on our own as well. He did superb out of sight down stays because well, he just went to sleep!  His recall among other dogs etc was good but once he got out on open fields and in forests etc, it all went to pot. Calling him back was a waste of time as he 'couldn't hear us' when running away after something.  So I changed tactics with him and instead concentrated on teaching him an instant down. I built up distance gradually so that eventually he would drop down immediately wherever he was and no matter how far away! This worked a treat as he was good at that! :thumbup1: I then proofed it with distractions, getting people to do whatever they could to make him run after them and their dogs and using a lure attached to my OH who was commanded to 'run, forrest! run!' Thereafter no matter what was in the distance, a loud shout of "Down!" stopped him in his tracks as he could hear that even if facing the other way!  Once down he was told to stay whilst we collected him. Yes, we could have called him and he would have come to us from that 'down' no problem but to be honest, it took so blooming long because he would come back so s-l-o-w-l-y that it was quicker to actually walk out and get him!:closedeyes:

I miss that dog. He was such a character!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

tripod said:


> All behaviour is modifiable - but the devil is in the details,* it greatly depends on the trainer's abilities*, the behaviour is question, the amount of experience (i.e. how long and how strong has this behaviour being rewarded) etc.
> 
> I think that every dog should be trained or managed to cope with his daily life. If that means that you walk your dog off leash where wildlife is likely to tempt than it is the two-legger's responsiblity to train and manage this behaviour.
> It is not appropriate or safe to allow a dog to chase uncontrolled so this is an important issue.
> It is also important to say that management is down to human behaviour so can fail  that's why working on training all the while managing is essential


LOL, that's part of the problem!! 

However ... it looks like a nice day today so I am going to practise the whistle commands & 'leaves' in short sessions today


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

It is easy to become complacent, more so if you have quite well behaved dogs, I know I tend to let things go for a couple of weeks, and then concentrate again on getting them a bit sharper.

Quest are good, I've used them in the past, also have a look at this one for training equipment, run by a friend of mine:

 Hi lost - for smarter gundogs - Home

She's a lovely lady, and very helpful.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Just thought I'd give you another tip. I've just been in the forest with the pooch and a beautiful red deer crossed our path about 50 yards in front of us. The wind was behind us so the dog didn't pick the scent up and was oblivious to the deer. 
So the tip is this. When you are walking into a breeze or wind be aware that the dogs are picking up more air scent and from a greater distance, and will be more aware of wildlife in front of you and more expectant especially if they've learn't to look for wildlife through air scent. (It's one of the reason we work gundogs into the wind when looking for wounded or killed game) On the other hand when the wind is behind you, wildlife are more aware fo yor presence and will get out of the way. This doesn't mean you shouldn't be vigilant at all times, but the likelyhood of meeting wildlife diminishes a little. Except for squirrels, They are just dozy and can move quickly to the nearest tree.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grandad said:


> Just thought I'd give you another tip. I've just been in the forest with the pooch and a beautiful red deer crossed our path about 50 yards in front of us. The wind was behind us so the dog didn't pick the scent up and was oblivious to the deer.
> So the tip is this. When you are walking into a breeze or wind be aware that the dogs are picking up more air scent and from a greater distance, and will be more aware of wildlife in front of you and more expectant especially if they've learn't to look for wildlife through air scent. (It's one of the reason we work gundogs into the wind when looking for wounded or killed game) On the other hand when the wind is behind you, wildlife are more aware fo yor presence and will get out of the way. This doesn't mean you shouldn't be vigilant at all times, but the likelyhood of meeting wildlife diminishes a little. Except for squirrels, They are just dozy and can move quickly to the nearest tree.


Excellent afdvice, this is exactly what the behaviourist I see (for Roxy) has mentioned & I do take note now of the wind now. Earlier we were out & it's quite breezy, both dogs stopped, noses in the air sniffing, which I knew was sign so I called them & both went on their leads.

It was only when I looked across the corn field that I could see two deer with their heads sticking out. Luckily the dogs hadn't seen this so once we were a good distance passed I let them off again.

I used to love seeing deer when I was out ..... not so much at the moment!!


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i would presume that includes chasing U?...  i hope U're in good shape.


Yes. I was the first thing the chased and took down, My ankles bear the marks of these little tiny terrors Even though I am a runner, they always caught me.

In serious note, no one has mentioned this book

Welcome to Dogwise.com

I haven't read it, thus I can't speak for it's content. Anyone here familiar with it?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Corinthian said:


> ...no one has mentioned this book
> Welcome to Dogwise.com
> 
> I haven't read it, thus I can't speak for its content. Anyone here familiar with it?


i read the excerpt - Yucch. see - 
http://www.dogwise.com/authpub/chase_excerpt.pdf

or just click on the excerpt hyperlink; she describes dogs hunting BIG GAME as a pack, encircling the group, 
chasing, killing & dissecting their prey.  yeah, right... _*Next?...*_


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

The author in the quoted extract is describing the predatory sequence which goes through many stages, from first locating the prey, to finally killing and eating it. I don't imagine she is is suggesting that is what all dogs do. Depending on the individual, the predatory sequence can be locate and chase, chase and catch, catch and kill, or any part or parts of the whole sequence. Remember this is just an extract from a book and without knowing the whole context, I don't think she should be dismissed.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Corinthian said:


> Yes. I was the first thing the chased and took down, My ankles bear the marks of these little tiny terrors Even though I am a runner, they always caught me.
> 
> In serious note, no one has mentioned this book
> 
> ...


Thanks! I have ordered it 

I do have the David Ryan book but I can't have too many ideas to try.

I've been using the whistle as more of a command rather than than just a noise & both dogs can now sit to it. I just need to now start practsing a 'stop' to the whistle & getting them to it at a distance to the whistle..... although I realise that this will take time & is not something I can accomplish overnight.

I feel that with Roxy especially, she loves playing 'leave it' at home with her toys. No idea why this is one of her fave games but if I can use this & try to apply it outside & in varyin situations then this may be really useful ..... just not sure how


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

some video examples of using Premack to control chasing - 
YouTube - ‪premack, dog chasing‬‏


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

the dog should know that they cannot [or rarely] CATCH the game - 
however, an alternative is to develop a manic devotion to a fake-foxtail on a flirt-pole, or a Super-Tug... 
both of which the dog DOES know they can catch, & have a blast 'killing' the object.

here are *Tug-of-Peace* & *Super-Tug - * using an object on a flirt pole, like a fishing-pole toy for cats, 
is just a variation of the basic theme: 

Tug of Peace - 
go DEADWEIGHT: hang yer whole arm off the dog's jaw like a flour-sack. Don't say anything or look at the dog, 
look ===> away or Down; WAIT. Sooner or later, even the most-intense dog loses interest in a one-sided game with a sack. 
each time the dog drops it, *promptly* Re-present it excitingly for another round - over time, raise the intensity, 
lift the dog using the tugee, shake or swing the tugee [and dog], etc. 
over time, the dog DROPs on less & less obvious a 'deadweight' cue, until just a second's pause = Drop. 
adding a LOOK-AWAY to the pause is even better - look -At- the dog's eyes while tugging, glance off to 'drop'.

add the LABEL 'drop' *as the dog does it* at least a dozen times, before even attempting to use it 
*before* the dog does it, as a cue - Always combine it with deadweight as a tactile clue; 
remember Not to engage with a challenging eye-to-eye stare while expecting her/him to *drop the tug*.

like everything else, the dog should perform the DROP 4 times of 5 before the *label* 'drop' is applied, 
& it cannot be considered a *cue for an action* until the verbal alone gets the dog to drop, 4 times of 5.

80% compliance is the gauge for raise criteria, add a label, use a cue, proofing stages, & so on.

_Super-Tug - _
for a portable emergency distraction, visible RECALL object/cue, or other focus exercises: 
find a toy that will become the dog's obsession; choose something long-enuf to keep their teeth off Ur hand, 
and large-enuf to be visible from a fair distance if waved overhead or shaken invitingly at arm's-length. 
a ball on a rope, a knotted rope, a firehose bumper, a FLAT soft-toy [un-stuffed bunny, other critter], 
a rubber figure-8, a small rubber tire on a rope... it must be sturdy, NOT hard like a bone but grippable. 
[we don't want chipped, cracked, or broken teeth].

begin by playing with the future-SUPER-tug *alone.* yes, U read it right: 
toss it in the air, shake it, laugh out-loud, talk to Urself... don't be shy, really get into how wonderful this toy is. 
then _*put it away*_ in an inacessible, special place - this toy will _*never*_ be left out for self-play, chewing, tug between dogs... 
it is always & forever for tug between a dog & human only, & very very special. :001_tt1:

U can start with just a few seconds, & build to 10 or 15-seconds of playing ALONE with this marvelous toy. 
this takes a few days - 2 or 3 - & by now the dog should be twitching with excitement when U approach the door, 
drawer, high hook or shelf, etc, where this fantastic toy lives - sadly out of reach of all dogs; their eyes should spark 
when they see U reach for it, U can name the toy - _"ooh, let's get the Killer-Rabbit down, shall we?..."_ etc.

then comes the _*AWESOME day*_ when the dog is allowed to play tug with it! 
ooh, how exciting!... make it short n sweet, put it away again. Take it out for a few seconds & play alone, Etc. 
within a week or 2, alternating play WITH the dog & play selfishly alone, with lots of Oscar-worthy acting thrills, 
the dog should be near-manic about this toy. Start carrying it on walks - if U slip it in a pocket & the rope dangles, 
*teach the dog* that mugging it, even sniffing it, sends the toy back home; this happens BEFORE U take it along.

_cautionary tale - _
a fellow-trainer damn-near had her pants ripped clean off by an over-excited AmBull who glommed onto a super-tug 
in her back-pocket & refused to OUT - this looked funny to onlookers, but she got pretty bruised & hurt her arm, 
trying to reach behind herself & get the tug out while being yanked all over like a ragdoll, so DO proof - walk with the toy 
dangling in a belt-loop, hanging in a holster, & so on, inside the house, in the garden/yard, etc, before 'on the road'.

OK - U have an obsessed dog at home; now build an obsessed dog AWAY from home: call from mild distractions, 
reward with a wild game [teach Tug-of-Peace *first* so U never have to argue for possession - remember 
no Eye-To-Eye challenging stares over the OUT], get the thrills going, lift & swing or shake the dog's forehand, 
just a few seconds... back in the pocket / fanny-pack / holster / belt-loop, send the dog off to sniff & play. 
*use a long-line* if their recall is shaky; U can attach a name to the object or the game, Yell TUG & shake 
the toy animatedly overhead or out to the side [shake it in front of U & the dog can't pick it out from background], 
or just say the dog's _Sacred Name_ & display the Super-Tug invitingly.

build the intensity of distractions slowly, til the dog's Name & the sight or sound of the tug shaken or squeaked 
can call the dog off a deer that's in full-flight, wig-wagging a white tail excitingly, or away from mild play 
with a well-known buddy - SEND THE DOG BACK to play / sniff always in the early stages, don't sour the response 
by leashing the dog when they come in: or play tug BEFORE leashing them up, or leash the dog AND THEN play tug, 
AND THEN release the dog... Don't make coming in for the Super-Tug a sign the fun is over.

U now have a visible CUE which when waved about or squeaked can bring Ur dog flying across a soccer-pitch 
or 50-yards down a woodland path toward U, with ease. :yesnod: this is _*power*_ - don't abuse it.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LeashedforLife - thanks so much for that, I've printed it off for reference.

I had a 1-2-1 with a local COAPE/APDT behaviourist last night (not our usual one as she has recently had a bereavement) & it went really well.

I got alot of useful tips & advice regarding whistle training & changing chase directions. Obviously these are all behaviours that I will need to work on & build but it was really useful to have someone watching me & giving me advice.

I know have a training plan that I will work on mainly in the garden where there are no distractions (apart from one suicidal squirrel occassionally) & start incorporating some of the more successful activities on walks. 

We are meeting for a follow up session next month when we will all go on a walk together & try to build on this when away from home.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I [now] have a training plan that I will work on mainly in the garden where there are no distractions
> (apart from 1 suicidal squirrel occasionally) & [incorporate] some of the more successful activities on walks.


glad to hear the COAPE-rep was helpful! :thumbup: :thumbup:

& a suicidal squirrel is _*perfect*_ for Premack: 
* call the dog - on a long-line - ONCE. 
* bring the dog to U - if need be, fighting like a marlin on a hook :lol: 
* REWARD the dog, no matter how they got there... they came to U - willing or no. 
* turn the dog loose to *pursue the squirrel* as a second reward!

U can let the dog *see* the squirrel thru a window, call the dog AWAY from the window [once], 
get the dog to U however U can with the drag, & then let him out to pursue the squirrel. :001_smile:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LOl, if only I could get the squirrel to turn up when required!! 

We have been doing lots of training using suggestions here & from the behaviourist. I've finished reading the David Ryan one again & am half way through the one recommended by Corinthian (thanks for that it's really useful!)

The one thing i find a bit annoying with both books (although majority of the content is fantastic) is that they both suggest walking dogs in areas where there are no animals that may trigger a chase until you have this more under control - I'd love it if they could suggest somewhere near me as I can't move where I am for hares, rabbits, pheasants, etc :001_huh:

Unfortunately we don't have this option short of not taking the dogs out at all. I'm trying to minimise this & walk them along open fields which, although there seems to be loads of bloody deer at the moment, give me more chance of seeing them as there are no wooded areas for them to suddenly spring out of or for the dogs to disappear in to - it's hard work being so vigilant all the time though 

I am also using the whistle for sit at a distance - we need to work at this more, & for recalling the dogs whcih is more successul. I have also been re-directing chases of balls which has been quite successful, although we are using kong squeaky balls (the dogs faves!) & it's costing me a fortune as Roxy wrecks every one she gets!

My next task is to get the dogs to chase a ball & use the whistle to recall them when they first start to chase. I was going to start this off with a small roll of the ball & use a long line to prevent them getting the ball then gradually build this until I can (hopefully) recall them at any point when chasing their fave tennis ball.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> LOl, if only I could get the squirrel to turn up when required!!
> 
> We have been doing lots of training using suggestions here & from the behaviourist. I've finished reading the David Ryan one again & am half way through the one recommended by Corinthian (thanks for that it's really useful!)
> 
> ...


I am also trying some of these suggestions (so glad you started this thread!). If you can enlist a helper I found the following advice on another forum which I hope to try when my hubby is about this weekend:

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your helper simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because its getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dogs name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the 
early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).


It seems to make good sense to me - in the week I walk Kilo alone though so it will become a weekend activity!!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dogless said:


> I am also trying some of these suggestions (so glad you started this thread!). If you can enlist a helper I found the following advice on another forum which I hope to try when my hubby is about this weekend:
> 
> You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..
> 
> ...


That's brillaint! I'll rope my OH in at the weekend as well. He thought he was going fishing but ...... 

We've been doing something similar regarding the food whilst at home but more calling them away from my OH whilst he has some treats in his hand - poor Toby is so reluctnat to leave someone who has a bit of sausage!! But they do then get an extra special reward when he comes to me.

I just wish there was a quick fix for this as there seem to be loads of deer around at the moment - 5 last night which I spotted. 2 were bounding through the corn fields & then I spied 3 heads appear.

Obviously the dogs go on their leads at this point but it worries me so much that one day I won't be quick enough


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I have the same worries with deer; two dogs caught one where we walk the other day .

Look like both our OHs are in for a fun weekend .


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

We seemed to be doing so well; have practised lots with recall using the whistle in the garden & when out, redirecting chases again in the garden & a couple of time when out (ok, I did it when they were about to give up so may not count )

Tonight Toby was fantatsic but Roxy .... She literally bugered off, I wasn;t quick enough to get her sqeaky ball out & no amount of calling, whistle blowing was getting her back.

She was chasing a duck (who may have been injured as was flying very low) & would not come back. It was only when she was running along the edge of the field that I then noticed a deer (my biggest worry!) jumping through the corn.

Luckily Roxy didn;t see her but could have & then I think I would have lost her. Luckily she came back after a bout 5 or 10 mins - I probably did everything wrong (although I didn't panic or try chasing her) but did blow my whistle several times (despite her not listening), getting her squeaky ball out, calling her, etc

She did start to come back but the blasted duck was doing loops & flew away from her, past me then round back towards & past Roxy again which then made her turn back & start chasing again 

I wish I had a dog that didn't chase


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I wish I had a dog that didn't chase


Noooo! Its such a REALLY fulfilling experience to watch the years go bye watching chases, high activity & your dogs complete species freedom to be a complete part of its own world which we can watch but never emphasis with & never be a part of

As the so short few years go by to know you've given your dog everything it needs, every day of its life, to be a free dog to go out into its world and reap the intense, daily, rewards they get from chases & things of their own world, they live their short little lives liveing their dream each day of such a short life.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> She was chasing a duck... & would not come back. It was only when she was running along the edge of the field
> that I then noticed a deer... jumping through the corn.
> 
> ... Luckily she came back after a bout 5 or 10 mins... She did start to come back but the blasted duck was doing loops
> ...


long-line. :001_smile:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Noooo! It's such a REALLY fulfilling experience to watch the years go bye watching chases, high activity & your dogs complete species freedom to be a complete part of its' own world which we can watch but never emphasis with & as the so short few years have go by to know you've given your dog everything it needs to be a free dog to go out into its word and reap the intense, daily, rewards they get from chases.


But.... much as she enjoys it I am very aware that this is a behaviour I can't control & after seeing a lucher run over the other week (who was chasing a rabbit across a road) I realise the danger that this can pose to her.

She is not near a road on our walks, but if she did tun across sevral fields then she would get to one


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

Yes but all the owner needed to do was recall it before it went into a danger zone! it was not recalling it at the right time that killed it.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

I forgot, it's just a matter of training them.

http://tinyurl.com/p39gc8v
.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Yes but all the owner needed to do was recall it before it went into a danger zone! it was not recalling it at the right time that killed it.


Unfortunately it was owned by gypsies who just let it go where it wanted to on it's own so had no supervision. The poor man who ran it iovwer had seen it running around for weeks & had asked then not to let it out unsupervised but ...

I have a problem in that my dog (who I am trying to whistle train) is receptive to recall commands until in chase mode - then I struggle  I can't walys be vigilant & see the animal before she does


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

It is not acceptable in the UK to allow a dog to chase wild animals even with your permission, just so that you can watch it do it's natural thing and then look good by calling it away- Hunting with dogs : Directgov - Environment and greener living If seen someone and reported, a person can face charges under the Hunting Act 2004 so care must be taken not to allow it - even if you can call a dog off before it goes too far. 

My dogs look to me when wildlife bounds out in front of us and if I say "Leave it!" they will not chase. The fact that deer and rabbits can jump up in front of my collies nose (a dog with high prey drive, totally working bred) and he will just stand and watch it fills me with more pride than allowing him to chase just so that I can show off by calling him away. :wink: My ego doesn't eat a lot as you may have guessed.

This is not a perfect world though and if a person honestly cannot stop their dog chasing other animals then 'control' is preferable via a long line in areas where wildlife are likely to pop up.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

You have to train them to recall from chasing events, thats how its done, this dog is trained to whistle recalls & in the emergency the voice came first, simples.

‪Multiple Recalls From Chases, Different Species An Emergency & An Aggressive Incident.‬‏ - YouTube


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> It is not acceptable in the UK to allow a dog to chase wild animals even with your permission, just so that you can watch it do it's natural thing and then look good by calling it away- Hunting with dogs : Directgov - Environment and greener living If seen someone and reported, a person can face charges under the Hunting Act 2004 so care must be taken not to allow it - even if you can call a dog off before it goes too far.
> 
> My dogs look to me when wildlife bounds out in front of us and if I say "Leave it!" they will not chase. The fact that deer and rabbits can jump up in front of my collies nose (a dog with high prey drive, totally working bred) and he will just stand and watch it fills me with more pride than allowing him to chase just so that I can show off by calling him away. :wink: My ego doesn't eat a lot as you may have guessed.
> 
> This is not a perfect world though and if a person honestly cannot stop their dog chasing other animals then 'control' is preferable via a long line in areas where wildlife are likely to pop up.


Whilst I agree with you, with Roxy, keeping her on a long line seems to reverse all our training, her recall seems to decrease, her anxiety increases, & she seems to regress in her overall training. This isn't something that I have just tried for a couple of weeks & then abandoned, but constantly practised & actually seen her behaviour take a down turn whilst being on a long line.

I am trying everthing I can in order to try & control this, I constantly practise recommended exercises, I have had a couple of 1-2-1 a with a behaviorusit but she still chases & I dont; know what to do.

I live in the countryside so wildlife popping up is every few yards tbh


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Whilst I agree with you, with Roxy, keeping her on a long line seems to reverse all our training, her recall seems to decrease,
> her anxiety increases, & she seems to regress in her overall training. This isn't something that I have just tried
> for a couple of weeks & then abandoned, but constantly practised & actually seen her behaviour take a down turn
> whilst being on a long line.
> ...


 - U can't let her chase, as every chase makes the habit stronger.

- the only way i know of to PREVENT her chasing is a long-line.

- maybe U can train off-leash in a fenced area?, so she can get a good romp.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> - U can't let her chase, as every chase makes the habit stronger.
> 
> - the only way i know of to PREVENT her chasing is a long-line.
> 
> - maybe U can train off-leash in a fenced area?, so she can get a good romp.


We don't have anything like that round here, plenty of fields edged with ***** .... but also loads of wildlife!!

I know a long line is the only prevenable way of ebsuring she comes back but she has been so much better in herself since we got rid of it. Whe we used it every walk was awful as she constantly wanted to be with Toby (he was off lead) & if I walked them seperately then I was constantly calling her back as she would get to the end of the line & pull.

Since coming off the long line her general recall (no chasing) is spot on, the beahviorual problems are lessened & her general anxiety is reduced so i am loath to use it again


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I constantly practise recommended exercises, I have had a couple of 1-2-1 a with a behaviorusit but she still chases & I dont; know what to do.


I think its obvious, the behaviourist sold you ineffective ramblings, it has not worked, your dogs mental state is heading downhill because of long line confinment or its lifes at risk off lead when theres game around so why not ask for a refund in full and employ someone else & give that a go, you are the emplyer, you employed the behaviourist to work for you, he did not so a refund is due & employ another with the same money.

I must say these guys are really shrewd, its all perfectly legal for them to take hundreds or thousands, they ruin a dogs life, ruin the persons enjoyment of their dog, do nothing at all for the money, c'mone I mean it's quite obvious wizard of Oz stuff aint it. It don't take a degree in 'Human Con Trickery' to see whats going on.

Look at this post below, its the same everywhere and people still risk their dogs happiness with them as well as their own sanity. Credit to the behaviourists & trainers who pull this common stunt they got lots of bottle.

Recognised qualifications for 'positive trainer' or 'Behaviouist' = anyone with a lot of bottle, a more than average touch of shrewdness & a desire to laugh all the way to the bank.



> *From Last Week*
> _I have spent a lot of time and money investing in his rehabilitation and to be honest it's consumed my every day since I've had him. I long for one relaxing walk with him which is one of the reasons I wanted to get a dog. What I didn't expect was to spend my life trying to fix problems (there have been other things along the way lol) and that was after 1 years research into dogs before comitting to getting one.
> 
> My first trainer's *rate was £150 for 2 hours*, the second *one was £300 for several sessions*, *third was £160 for two hours* and the *fourth was £80 for one hour*. They all used different techniques and some mutual techniques and all were recommended and very experienced. The classes I go to are one of a kind and are excellent and only cost £20 per class but aren't in London so it involves a two hour car journey there and two hours back once a week so once you've factored petrol in it's actually quite a lot._


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

S LION - Where is that place in your photos? can people just walk around that landscape (national park or something?) or get farmers permission etc, it looks great.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> -	U can't let her chase, as every chase makes the habit stronger.


A strong habit means it has intense reward value to the dog, refusing to allow high quality rewards most days of its life is cruelty on a regular basis & as Cleo has pointed out, it damages the dogs mental state.

Of course you let them chase providing you have obedience trained them, you simply recall if you want them to stop the chase. Why would you want to stop a dog (in your case other peoples dogs i.e. giving cruel advice to Cleo) having what are the highest value intensity rewards every day of its short life? whats the point of taking a dog out for >ITS'< exercise when you then stop IT from having the exercise it needs?



> U can't


Yes you can providing you stop feeding/misleading folks your own internet fantasies & get real!

Recalls from chases
http://tinyurl.com/p39gc8v
.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> It is not acceptable in the UK to allow a dog to chase wild animals even with your permission, just so that you can watch it do it's natural thing and then look good by calling it away- Hunting with dogs : Directgov - Environment and greener living If seen someone and reported, a person can face charges under the Hunting Act 2004 so care must be taken not to allow it - even if you can call a dog off before it goes too far.
> 
> My dogs look to me when wildlife bounds out in front of us and if I say "Leave it!" they will not chase. The fact that deer and rabbits can jump up in front of my collies nose (a dog with high prey drive, totally working bred) and he will just stand and watch it fills me with more pride than allowing him to chase just so that I can show off by calling him away. :wink: My ego doesn't eat a lot as you may have guessed.
> 
> This is not a perfect world though and if a person honestly cannot stop their dog chasing other animals then 'control' is preferable via a long line in areas where wildlife are likely to pop up.


The last time someone was reported for letting their dog chase wildlife, and was subsequently prosecuted and fined, I believe the fine was £250.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

SleepyBones said:


> Of course you let them chase providing you have obedience trained them, you simply recall if you want them to stop the chase. Why would you want to stop a dog (in your case other peoples dogs i.e. giving cruel advice to Cleo) having what are the highest value intensity rewards every day of its short life?


Cos its against the law .....Simples!:smilewinkgrin:

plus its cruel to the animal being chased!


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

In book "Bonding with your dog" Victoria Schade describe a method how to deal with chasing, she called it "the squirrel game" Dog was obsess with chasing squirrels.

Dog is allowed to chase occasionally only after your permission and only with you. 
You are teaching a dog that if he sits for you, he will be allowed to chase squirrel but only with you. This mean that the dog is on lead. Over time you will reduce the number of chasing. It is a gambler game for the dog: will we chase squirrel today or not. 
You start with distance, get some focus from your dog ask him to sit. You can stand on lead if a dog is strong to control him, as well harness is a good idea. If he won't to sit increase distance between dog and squirrel. You can bribes the dog to get his focus.
When dog sits, you say "let's go" and start to run with dog toward the squirrel. You not going close because you don't want to catch it. 
Now is time for baby steps.
Next time you see a squirrel, get the dog to sit, prise him for few moments at first maybe 3 seconds, say "lets go" command and again you both will chase the squirrel . That break between sit and lets go will prevent sit-then-run routine. 
Increase time between sit and chase. 
The last phase is to introduce your dog to "not today" command. 
If squirrel is far you ask the dog to sit, tell "not today" and give the dog a treat. Don't forget prise the dog as a mad man, all to keep her focus on you. Of course after it you will carry on walk.

I have hope that I wrote it enough clear to you 

Any way I recommend that book. You can find many god ideas about teach as you go method.

If your dog is allowed to chase better is to choose squirrels or rabbits, they are fast and chances that a dog will catch them are small.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Tbh the farmers (whose land I walk on) are more than happy for the dogs to chase the rabbits & hares, they hope they'll catch them & stop them destroying their crops.

Whilst I too don't mind the dogs doing this too much I want them to listen to me & stop when told. Toby will now, alst night he was great, started to chase the duck then stopped & came back. Roxy however ..... 

Manybe I am expecting too much too soon wih her. I just felt sick when she buggered off & I couldn't even see her.

As a note, when we got to areas around with willdlife, conservations areas (one of our walks is highlighted as this) they are both leashed, same as around livestock.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Andromeda said:


> In book "Bonding with your dog" Victoria Schade describe a method how to deal with chasing, she called it "the squirrel game" Dog was obsess with chasing squirrels.
> 
> Dog is allowed to chase occasionally only after your permission and only with you.
> You are teaching a dog that if he sits for you, he will be allowed to chase squirrel but only with you. This mean that the dog is on lead. Over time you will reduce the number of chasing. It is a gambler game for the dog: will we chase squirrel today or not.
> ...


This is exactly what I want to be able to do! I think it is unrealistic to expect the dogs to never chase anything, they enjoy doing it (which I realise makes the problem harder to break) but I need to have control.

I recently read a book regarding this where although the author made some good points she also discouraged any game (throwing balls, etc) for the dog to chase as this would reinforce a dogs prey drive. Whilst I could understand this to a degree surely some dogs have a need to chase & gain excitement - maybe I'm wrong though.

Wonder if I can get the squirrel who visits our garden top hang around for a training sessions!


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> The last time someone was reported for letting their dog chase wildlife, and was subsequently prosecuted and fined, I believe the fine was £250.


Interesting in several ways.

The first & most obvious one is that the dogs & game are at the highest risk are the common ones where the dog is not trained to recall from chases, which in fact happens all the time, the dog just goes if it wants when it wants & it's those run of the mill, normal, daily incidents because its training is ineffective (if any training).

The £250 fines is further interesting, so, if were fined £250 whilst I was in the process of a training session of my own training to control the cessation or otherwise of any chase which occurred, unexpectedly & out of the blue which is in fact the normal chasing which occures in UK (the Richmond Deer herd in the video is a real life example).

So, I pay £250 for a very important, advanced, training session, compared to. overcompared to what normal pet owners pay, over years of training with no results. I think £250 for a training session of high importance is very much worth paying - COMPARED TO the value pet owners get over long periods of time AND WITH NO RESULTS!!!! - see below:



> I have spent a lot of time and money investing in his rehabilitation and to be honest *it's consumed my every day since I've had him. I long for one relaxing walk with him* which is one of the reasons I wanted to get a dog. *What I didn't expect was to spend my life trying to fix problems* (there have been other things along the way lol) and that was after 1 years research into dogs before comitting to getting one.
> 
> My first trainer's rate was £*150 for 2 hours*, the second one was *£300 for several sessions,* third was £*160 for two hours *and the fourth was *£80 for one hour*.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Wonder if I can get the squirrel who visits our garden top hang around for a training sessions!


Squirrel chasing is the most difficult of all things to train to stop, they are usual close to the tree comparative to a dog going after them, it takes a human thinking time before they utter a shout & then takes the dog thinking time to respond & more time to physically stop or turn, so, even if you managed to shout the dog is unlikely to stop itself in time or more often than not the squirrel is already up the tree & chase over. Because of those factors training dogs to recall from chases by starting with squirrel chasing is really, really a hard place to start.

A very good example of what you would be up against & why using squirrels as a base to establish reliable recalls from chases is the few secs clip below, caught unexpectedly & at random, no chance of recalling at those speeds, also take into account that dog is 4.5 years past its prime & 8.5 year old, a very significant factor!

Scroll 2mins 7 secs into video
‪Dogs Learned & Unlearned Behavioural Responses To Physical Aversive Stimuli‬‏ - YouTube

.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm not too bothered about squirrels as there aren't too many where we are & they generally just shoot up the nearest tree. The rabbits aren't a major concern either as they are usually near a burrow to escape, the birds usually fly off pretty quickly (apart from the stupid duck last night who kept flying back towards then past Roxy making her resume her chase )

It's the deer & hares (as they don't seem to go to ground) mainly, the worry is that she'll chase an animal then catch sight of a deer further along as what nearly happened last night.

I don't think the behaviourist was waste of money, or is trying to rip me off - not that we can afford to spend a fortune but I would pay whatever it takes if I could get this under control, although I know it doesn't work like that. She did have some brilliant ideas & maybe it's me expecting miracles or sudden behaviour changes or I'm not doing these exercises correctly or often enough

Our walks are never relaxing as I'm constantly on the lookout, I wish I didn't have to be all the time but I would rather do this than revert back to the longline when she didn't enjoy our walks.


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> This is exactly what I want to be able to do! I think it is unrealistic to expect the dogs to never chase anything, they enjoy doing it (which I realise makes the problem harder to break) but I need to have control.


I agree.



Cleo38 said:


> I recently read a book regarding this where although the author made some good points she also discouraged any game (throwing balls, etc) for the dog to chase as this would reinforce a dogs prey drive. Whilst I could understand this to a degree surely some dogs have a need to chase & gain excitement - maybe I'm wrong though.
> 
> Wonder if I can get the squirrel who visits our garden top hang around for a training sessions!


Can I have title and author of that book, please?
I appreciate good reading.

I have a lurcher. Run is her life, she won't catch and kill. Funny thing before she start to chase she has to have a sure that prey will run away


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Andromeda said:


> I agree.
> 
> Can I have title and author of that book, please?
> I appreciate good reading.
> ...


It was called Chase! by Clarissa Von Reinhardt. She had some good tips for maiing walks interesting & getting dogs to focus but I do think that some of these books make unrealistic assumptions at times.

As with the David Ryan book she also advises owners to avoid areas with triggers - that's all very well in theory but I live in the middle of the ountryside, there are triggers every few yards. We have deer, foxes, rabbits, hares, all manner of game birds, ducks, geese, swans (we have water everywhere - *****, drains & rivers) which is lovely for wildlife enthusiasts (& me when I don't have the dogs with me ) but is a bloody nightmare at times!


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> As with the David Ryan book she also advises owners to avoid areas with triggers - that's all very well in theory but I live in the middle of the ountryside, there are triggers every few yards. We have deer, foxes, rabbits, hares, all manner of game birds, ducks, geese, swans (we have water everywhere - *****, drains & rivers) which is lovely for wildlife enthusiasts (& me when I don't have the dogs with me ) but is a bloody nightmare at times!


How I can avoid all those cats wondering around street and cats which are visiting my back yard and drive my dogs crazy?
Shoot them all?
Move on the Moon?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> Tbh the farmers (whose land I walk on) are more than happy for the dogs to chase the rabbits & hares, they hope they'll catch them & stop them destroying their crops.
> 
> Whilst I too don't mind the dogs doing this too much I want them to listen to me & stop when told. Toby will now, alst night he was great, started to chase the duck then stopped & came back. Roxy however .....
> 
> ...


 hares are rapidly declining Cleo

Hare Preservation Trust


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> We have deer, foxes, rabbits, hares, all manner of game birds, ducks, geese, swans (we have water everywhere - *****, drains & rivers) which is lovely for wildlife enthusiasts (& me when I don't have the dogs with me ) but is a bloody nightmare at times


Based on recent posts I think you might need to consider carefully what you plan on doing. No doubt you have fallen into the same lax thinking we all have this time of year, namely, this summer is past its peak, the darker nights have been slowly closing in this past 5 weeks, soon enough you will have very few daylight hours to do anything in, next the weather, muddy, sticky fields and days getting shorter & shorter.

Now is the time to get as much done as possible, in the comfort of reasonably long, bright days, if you think what you have been doing is not working then you need to move on to something else before you end up with a dog on lead all winter & waiting for next spring to start all over again.

Others have fallen into a repetitive "I'll do the same thing all over again" habit, easy done, below is typical example, theres thousands more around net sites, heavens knows your in an absolutely ideal location to train her to recall from chases & let her have the freedom to chase if she wants, not many of us have those easy to access chances for those exercises. The one at the link below did 4 years and ended up with nothing more than tying the dog to her waist to stop it running off, mind you the trainers & behaviourists did well out of her lol.

So take account of the all to short bit of summer left, semi off topic, semi relevant, I am filling every spare hour to give her as much of whats left of her short little life.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

In my case the behaviourist I have seen regarding Roxy's anxiety, compulsive digging, reactivity towards other dogs, snapping at people ( to name a few of her problems!) has been very good & we have made alot of progress.

At one time things were so bad that I was too worried to let her off a long line in case she did meet another dog or person & bit them, I couldn't take that chance. 

I feel that along with other training exercises finding somewhere that she could be offlead (where we walk has no other dogs walkers or people, is completely flat so I can see anyone approaching) she has a completely different approach to going out for a walk, her anxiety has decreased, she is less reactive to other dogs (we've now managed to walk with 2 other dogs & have met a couple more with only minor barkling at the start), she is less fearful of people, etc.

As for chasing the odd bird or rabbit, I don't consider it cruel. Sorry but to completely deny her all instinctive behaviour I feel is wrong. I had a similar problem with Toby, the more I stopped him doing this the more he wanted to. Now Toby knows he can chase & does, but comes back when called. He was fantastic last night, chased the duck then as soon as the whistle was blown returned, maybe I just need to practice more with Roxy 

Again, with Toby if he was on a lonline he would be fine with this, he is fine with loads of lead walks, he's just happy to be out. Roxy is different, she doesn't enjoy being on a lead (although this is a must at times), doesn't like a longline but loves being offlead. Her lead walking though has improved since she has had more freedom.

As for last night, when she did eventually come back how should I have reacted seeing as she ignored the whistle? In retrospect I was worng to blow it several times despite knowing she was ignoring it. When she did return I put her on her lead (although was this worng? I don't want her associating coming back to me with the end of her fun - although it was!). I only did this as the bloody duck was still flying round us & I didn't want her to set off again


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> As for last night, when she did eventually come back how should I have reacted seeing as she ignored the whistle? In retrospect I was worng to blow it several times despite knowing she was ignoring it. When she did return I put her on her lead (although was this worng? I don't want her associating coming back to me with the end of her fun - although it was!). I only did this as the bloody duck was still flying round us & I didn't want her to set off again


Well you had to put her on lead, no choice, but, what has happened is that refusing the recall was a positive reinforcement to her, (reward) so shes reinforced not coming back if she does not want to.

OB training is to train that sort of dog to recall under all circumstances, environments, different prey, I mean in that video I put up that dog was in fight drive in one of those scenes & fight or flight drives are the strongest drives in all land mammals + with that dog, if shes encroached (feels encroached ) on, she will fight straight away & fully commited (her working genetics), but, the combination of training and the fact that the spaniel was running away she did recall.

That said, to reliably train a dog which you describe to recall from chases, it can only be reliably achieved under different circumstances, in any unexpected situation, occurring at random & that has to be carried out in real life situations.

Where you live you can control by prediction a training session by going to a place where 'predictable' events (prey chases) are highly likely, so, your in a position to set up a session >place< & then carry out whatever training thing you have chosen to get the recall from a chase or 2, then you have to mix recalls with allowing several chases, well again, with whatever methods your using. Good luck anyway but keep an eye on those nights drawing in, Im fed up of summer being nothing more than blink of an eye in time.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Roxy... she doesn't enjoy being on a lead (although this is a must at times),
> doesn't like a longline but loves being offlead.


how about wearing a drag-line on a front-clip harness? U can then interrupt if she begins to chase, 
or TREAD on the end of the lead & bring her in, as soon as U see game ahead - before she chases.

did U ever start training with a flirt-pole & a fake-foxtail? 
Super-Tug with a special toy? the toy can become a visible CUE to come in for a game.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> how about wearing a drag-line on a front-clip harness? U can then interrupt if she begins to chase,
> or TREAD on the end of the lead & bring her in, as soon as U see game ahead - before she chases.
> 
> did U ever start training with a flirt-pole & a fake-foxtail?
> Super-Tug with a special toy? the toy can become a visible CUE to come in for a game.


The worry I have with a drag line is that if i'm not quick enough & she takes off wioth the she could get tangled especially if she is in water (there are lots of water filled large ***** & drains on our walk).

I have a tug toy (long tennis ball type thing - kong toy) & her absolute fave, a large squeaky kong tennis ball. She ADORES these & literally stops dead in her tracks (most times) when she hears & sees this

The tennis ball has actually been successful in recalling her from minor chases so far but last nights one I didn't manage to stop her quickly enough - so my fault for not be vigilant enough.

Am still leading up to playing with a fox tail type thing, have been practsing with normal tennis balls so far. Tonight we had a brilliant session - both dogs recalled from chasing their balls every time. Maybe I will mock something up & use my OH's fishing rod to practise with another distraction

I know I now need to work on this whilst outside, not just in the garden. I just feel like failure at times & last night made me worry so much that she wasn't going to come back at all


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Maybe I will mock something up & use my OH's fishing rod to practise with another distraction.


i don't think a fishing-rod can handle a lunging, tugging dog; a bamboo pole such as is used in gardens 
or for casual curtain-poles, is sturdy & flexible, also cheap.  Don't want hubby up in arms, when the dog 
snaps his fave fishing-rod.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i don't think a fishing-rod can handle a lunging, tugging dog; a bamboo pole such as is used in gardens
> or for casual curtain-poles, is sturdy & flexible, also cheap.  Don't want hubby up in arms, when the dog
> snaps his fave fishing-rod.


LOL, he has a special sea fishing rod that he says is easily strong enough.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, he has a special sea fishing rod that he says is easily strong enough.


get his permission in writing - just in case he's wrong. :lol:


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Jean Donaldson in _The Culture Clash_ talks about building a solid recall via putting the behaviour on cue. I don't have the book on me at the moment (although I do have a Chihuahua lying on me!), but she advises something along the lines of having 2 people, one with a toy rabbit/bird on the end of a rope, the other holding the dog. One runs with the rabbit, the other releases the dog; the handler should then call back the dog using the established recall cue, and if (when) the dog doesn't respond, the person with the rabbit puts a bucket over it. Only when the dog finally responds to the handlers recall command, can the dog be released and allowed to have the toy.

I think it's something along those lines. What it teaches is that, chasing is fine, but only after they recall. This can build a solid recall in these situations, and allow you to increase the time spent before releasing. Obviously, we don't want the dog actually catching a small animal, so any releasing should be done when the animal is safely out of sight. Although, I can't remember what exactly she writes in the book!


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

All dogs should be trained not to chase willdlife. (period) it's BS to allow anything else and owners should be responsible for their actions and the actions of their dogs. 
Where does it stop. When your dog has been gored by a stag, or bitten by a badger or got mange from a fox or eye pecked out by a cock pheasant
Then there is the conservation area;s and SSSI's. Charity's recieve grants for maintaining natural woodland and habitat.
Irresponsible dog-owners can undermine that an dcharity's can lose their grants. 
It's a cop out to let your dog chase wildlife and thin git's okay. The bottom line is quite simpe. IT ISN'T 
What is the next step for owners of woodland and habitat. BAN ALL DOGS?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I really feel for you but it's not all doom and gloom keeping them on a lead is it? My Mals have always been on leads as do all Huskys because of their high prey drive. I have a walking belt too with a lunge line which means I can go hands free if I want to and they are still under my control. If they were off I could lose them forever, no matter how well they were trained.

I'd love to see them running free but just wouldn't take the chance.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

This is a good 'leave' & recall reinforcement training exercise, leave is the foundation of OB training & this sort of exercise lets the dog .have her chase< and also >leave & recalls< without allowing the chase (high value ball in this case), which is what your doing.

It's best at the moment to use (or start) this exercise with the dog on her own, once you both get into it you can then add your other dog as a distraction she must ignore.

‪Dog Training, Leave & Recall Reinforcement Exercise & Application In Emergency‬‏ - YouTube


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

Okay dogs are bad because they are chasing animals. 
How about cats? They chase, they play with and they kill animals and that is okay.

Am I allergic to cats?


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dogs aren't bad because they chase animals, it is their owners that are allowing the behaviour, I find it unacceptable.
I compete with my dog the last thing I would want is to be tracking through a field the dog puts a hare or rabbit up then starts chasing it. 
I would not let my dogs chase wildlife anymore than I would let them chase a running child, cyclist etc.
It will also make your recall difficult if you sometimes allow the chase, if you want the chase use a ball or a toy.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

lol yea, it's surprising how many people delibertly buy these two predator species & cant get their heads around why they chase and, or kill other animals, I think some dog & cat owners should stick to tree frogs or stuffed toys, I mean if they sat down for just half a minuet and though it out what dogs really they would have to come up with, dogs are nothing less than homecidal, illiterate, canabalistic maniacs with a habit of peeing on people sitting on park benches & the grabbing their sandwich and running of to do it all over again to the next sucker they come across, whilst their owners fork out £300 to pay a shrewd behaviourist to tell them "Ignore it and when they stop give them a treat" ......


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

In reply to the original posters question, I don't know anything about the course you are asking about, but in order to have a good recall in all conditions, you need an excellent standard of obedience near you in addition to a strong relationship and a good level of play with your dog. 
All owners have an area of influence, ie the distance away from them that the dog will still do as you ask, some owners area of influence is only a couple of feet, they will not be able to recall a dog who is chasing.

You seem like you have done loads of work to help your dog, why not ask the person you are working with if there is any more you can be doing, they may think you are ready to move on or alternitively want you to work more on what you have at the moment.

a line at the moment seems necessary, as everytime she is allowed to chase, it just becomes stronger in her that that is what you do, and she becomes better at it.
Good luck with her.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I think that I'm worried that if every chase it exciting then this will reinforce the behaviour - but then if she is predisposed to chasing & finds it exciting then am I really going to curb this? 

When people say they 'don't allow' a chase - do you just mean by having your dog on a lead/longline?

Also how should I let her know when she does return that I'm not happy? Should I have gone to get her? I was thinking of that at the time but then didn't want her to think that by me approaching her I was sort of joining in as she would still have been running about

Although I want her to associate returning to me with 'good' things I sometimes feel that she needs to know when she's not done what she was told - but then I suppose by the time she has returned to me she has forgotten that she ignored the whistle :huh:

I have another session with the behaviourist booked when we will be doing some of the exercises whilst on our walk to see if this can make more sense.

I agree that overall obedience is the key & recall is just part of this. Unfortunately I don't think she would be ok in a class environment just yet (reactivity to other dogs is still there so i think she may be too disruptive)

The emergency recall clip - wow, that is something that I would LOVE my dogs to do ..... maybe one day


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I think that I'm worried that if every chase it exciting then this will reinforce the behaviour - but then if she is predisposed to chasing & finds it exciting then am I really going to curb this?
> 
> When people say they 'don't allow' a chase - do you just mean by having your dog on a lead/longline?
> 
> ...


Never chastise a dog for coming back to you. You've lost the initiative if you can't stop her within a nano second. self hunting/chasing is rewarding behaviour and is difficult to break. Find out if there are any local gundog trainer and ask if they have a rabbit/fezzie pen. Then you can train in an safe environment.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> but then if she is predisposed to chasing & finds it exciting then am I really going to curb this?


You/anyone can train to allow chases with reliable recalls, but, > I personally< would not be able to reliably train any dog never to chase at all or not to chase again in the case of a dog which had chased in its past. I could to train to a high probability that it probably would not but to be totally confident it would never chase, simply, no.

Related to that, the point of putting that emergency deer chase in Richmond park on that Leave exercise video I put on is because that happened at 5 years 1 month old, she was trained from a pup never to chase deer in that park, on that day she tried it for the very first time. If I had not trained her to recall from chases then that day I doubt very, VERY much indeed she would have recalled, that said, this is very high drive, high endurance of drive dog with a high % working genetics, shes not a normal dobe you see around, BUT, her threshold to chase deer in that park, on a scale of 1-100 was 100 (not stimulated to chase at all) untill that one off day when the threshold just dropped to 0, therewere two commands, "leave" (said as "Oous") & whistle recall consolidation as she was on her way back.



> Although I want her to associate returning to me with 'good' things I sometimes feel that she needs to know when she's not done what she was told - but then I suppose by the time she has returned to me she has forgotten that she ignored the whistle


No, its highly unlikely, at the very best, that she would know why you admonished her in some way, say nothing & put her back on lead & walk on ignoring her for a little while, more to let yourself cool off than hoping for any learning experience which would make an difference by/to the dog.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

grandad said:


> All dogs should be trained not to chase willdlife. (period) it's BS to allow anything else and owners should be responsible for their actions and the actions of their dogs.
> Where does it stop. When your dog has been gored by a stag, or bitten by a badger or got mange from a fox or eye pecked out by a cock pheasant
> Then there is the conservation area;s and SSSI's. Charity's recieve grants for maintaining natural woodland and habitat.
> Irresponsible dog-owners can undermine that an dcharity's can lose their grants.
> ...


i couldnt agree more.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grandad said:


> Never chastise a dog for coming back to you. You've lost the initiative if you can't stop her within a nano second. self hunting/chasing is rewarding behaviour and is difficult to break. Find out if there are any local gundog trainer and ask if they have a rabbit/fezzie pen. Then you can train in an safe environment.


I did mail couple of local when i intially started this thread but they didn't get back to me. I'll give them a ring tomorrow & enquire about any training.



Malmum said:


> I really feel for you but it's not all doom and gloom keeping them on a lead is it? My Mals have always been on leads as do all Huskys because of their high prey drive. I have a walking belt too with a lunge line which means I can go hands free if I want to and they are still under my control. If they were off I could lose them forever, no matter how well they were trained.
> 
> I'd love to see them running free but just wouldn't take the chance.


Unfortunately Roxy doesn't do well on a lead. Toby would be hapy enough if every walk was on a lead but not Roxy. Since she's had more freedon alot of her anxieties have reduced, she's much calmer, actually likes going for a walk (previously she would try display lots of calming signals & slink around) but this might have to happen occassionally again

We've done lots of practising his afternoon & both dogs have been fantastci. I just need to do this when out on walks & try to gain abit more focus despite more distractions.

I really hope we can get some training with a gundog club as I think that Roxy espcially would love this - just hope they take slightly crazy dogs with an idiot owner


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

Hi Cleo, I just wondered if she was off lead all the time by now? I was hoping to read about her enjoyment of offlead antics & reliable recall by now, did you ever get that gundog trainer?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Hi Cleo, I just wondered if she was off lead all the time by now? I was hoping to read about her enjoyment of offlead antics & reliable recall by now, did you ever get that gundog trainer?


Thanks for asking!

Yes we have started to see a gundog trainer who is brilliant - Roxy really likes him as well which is great as she used to be bit funny with people. He's a bit old school (that's not meant as a criticism though) but really good with her & has given me some good advice. We've been afew times & will continue to hsve 1-2-1 sessions.

We are currently working on getting her to walk to heel which is going well & I now incorporate that in to her walks so she's not just legging about all the time.

He was actually quite complimentary & said her actual recall when we are out is good; she looks for me alot now, always responds to the whistle, can sit to a whistle command & is (mostly) responsive.

I'm still under no illusion though, I know that she will chase animals given a chance. Although we did have a success the other evening. There were alot of baby partidge suddenly flew out of a hedgerow but the dogs weren't interested - they wanted to chase their balls that I had instead - amazing but I still think a rabbit or hare would be more tempting!

I have got her to be really focussed on her ball which she loves & is only allowed to play with it when we are out so I'm finding that helps.

She is always off lead when we are out for our evening walks (lead walk in the morning) except for practising heel work. I have re-considered the long line which i would use when out with just me & Roxy but not when I take both dogs out or I meet up with my friend & her two - it's just not practical.

She loves running around off lead & as most of the time she is great I am not going to stop this because she may chase the odd rabbit. I am vigilant & would not let her off where I know there are game birds being reared (one of our new walks a local farmer has given permission for), near busy roads or anywhere near livestock or any conservation areas so I don't think I am being irresponsible - I hope not anyway


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*


Cleo38 said:



Thanks for asking!

Click to expand...

*


Cleo38 said:


> *Yes we have started to see a gundog trainer who is brilliant - Roxy really likes him as well which is great as she used to be bit funny with people. He's a bit old school (that's not meant as a criticism though) but really good with her & has given me some good advice. We've been afew times & will continue to hsve 1-2-1 sessions.*
> 
> *We are currently working on getting her to walk to heel which is going well & I now incorporate that in to her walks so she's not just legging about all the time. *
> 
> ...




Oh that's fantastic. After all the worry, soul-searching, frustration, etc. you have been through with Roxy. I'm so pleased for you and it just shows what positive training coupled with grit and determination can achieve.

Give yourself a massive pat on the back....LOL


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

well done. Sounds like you are making great progress.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Wow, its hard to believe you are talking about the same dog as a few months ago  She has come on so well, you should be really proud xx


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Thanks for all your kind words. She has come on so much, she's a different dog now. 

I think that part of my problem is to stop thinking of the dog she was & work with her as she is now - I still worry far too much about her apparently 

I was quite nervous meeting the gun dog trainer - he had warned me that he was quite direct & didn't mince his words. But after our first session he told me I wasn't quite the idiot I made out ..... apparently that was a compliment!!

It was really good for me to have a training session with someone else as well, especially someone who has been working with dogs for such a long time. I really enjoyed it so am hoping we continue to make progress


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Well done - sounds as if you are achieving a lot .


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Thanks for all your kind words. She has come on so much, she's a different dog now.
> 
> I think that part of my problem is to stop thinking of the dog she was & work with her as she is now - I still worry far too much about her apparently
> 
> ...


Sounds perfect. I really think this is what i need with Oscar. Someone to show me the ropes properly and help me find his "trigger" and channel it better. How much were the sessions


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Sounds perfect. I really think this is what i need with Oscar. Someone to show me the ropes properly and help me find his "trigger" and channel it better. How much were the sessions


£25 for just over an hour. He's only just up the road from me (thankfully as I drive enough in the week!) & was recommended on a gundog forum I visited.

We haven't done any 'gun dog training' as such but are working on improving her general obedience & concentration (& mine!).

Apparently I 'talk' to much to Roxy & overuse her name rather than giving her direct commands so end up confusing her 

Now this has been pointed out I'm really aware of just how much I do this so am trying to stop. We have been trying to get her more focussed on her ball which is working now but we still have long way to go.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> £25 for just over an hour. He's only just up the road from me (thankfully as I drive enough in the week!) & was recommended on a gundog forum I visited.
> 
> We haven't done any 'gun dog training' as such but are working on improving her general obedience & concentration (& mine!).
> 
> ...


Thats pretty good pricewise  I am trying to get Oscar interested in a toy but not having much luck, definately think i talk to him too much too.

Struggling to find the time i know i need to devote to it though at the moment so no point for me just trying to throw money at it til i can back it up with training myself


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> £25 for just over an hour. He's only just up the road from me (thankfully as I drive enough in the week!) & was recommended on a gundog forum I visited.
> 
> We haven't done any 'gun dog training' as such but are working on improving her general obedience & concentration (& mine!).
> 
> ...


A lot of peeps talk to much to their dogs. Much better to give singular commands and then give them a little time to obey. However,when he puts his head on my knee, and when we are relaxing, I tend to give it verbal diarrhoea


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grandad said:


> A lot of peeps talk to much to their dogs. Much better to give singular commands and then give them a little time to obey. However,when he puts his head on my knee, and when we are relaxing, I tend to give it verbal diarrhoea


LOL, I really didn't realise how much I did it & it's really hard stopping myself. It's been good having my bad habits pointed out though, I'd much rather someone was direct so I knew what I was doing wrong than tried to spare my feelings


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, I really didn't realise how much I did it & it's really hard stopping myself. It's been good having my bad habits pointed out though, I'd much rather someone was direct so I knew what I was doing wrong than tried to spare my feelings


That's my kinda school. Tell it how it is  good trainers can do this and not upset you. I find it's the ones that patronise you that wind me up


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Sounds like you're doing brilliantly- wish I could get a decent trainer in to point out my faults and to motivate me!!
Well done


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Yes we have started to see a gundog trainer who is brilliant - Roxy really likes him as well which is great as she used to be bit funny with people. He's a bit old school (that's not meant as a criticism though) but really good with her & has given me some good advice. We've been afew times & will continue to hsve 1-2-1 sessions.
> 
> We are currently working on getting her to walk to heel which is going well & I now incorporate that in to her walks so she's not just legging about all the time.
> 
> ...


Hi Cleo, I agree with him, from what you wrote before it did not seem like a poor recall just not up to a level to pull her out of unexpected random chases when thats needed in some of the chases, thats really the problem I noticed in your earlier posts.

The long term benefits of her/any dog the freedom to exercise itself as it needs is the level of fitness it maintains throughout life with, as the immune system breaks down over the years & when some kind of sick episode occures the fitness does help to some extent, anyway your trainers charging 'humane' rates for once so thats a good thing.

A lot of people not so much talk to their dog but keep repeating the command after its been broken, the dog learns "come" means run and do what you want, common problem. I don't use an ACME for recall because she will hear it from other people from time to time & that can affect their recall, dogs need one simple signal to make things easy for them not a whole bunch of similar signals making things unclear for them.

Let us know how your getting along from time to time but nice to know your happy enough with the way its going


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

Sorry for opening this up if you were all through with it, but I really think it's a fantastic thread and should be made into a sticky (just so idiots like me can find it easier  ). I've been sitting her for over an hour reading the posts and most of the links.

Congrats Cleo, your progress is very heartening to me as I've been having a similar problem which came to a head last night when Biscuit caught and probably killed a rabbit. If it died I'm sure I'll hear about it from my son as she caught it on his schoolyard. I didn't think chasing was such a bad thing and certainly didn't think she'd be able to catch a rabbit, but she's a very fast little dog. And hearing it scream broke my heart. When I caught up she was lying down in front of it - I don't know if she even understood on a mental level what she did because she was looking at it expectantly as though waiting for it to jump or run again like it was a toy and the poor little thing was just lying there breathing shallowly. Does this have anything to do with her playing catch and tug with stuffies? (all of our kids' old stuffed animals became her toys and we play with them together all the time) Does it have anything to do with adolescence or maturation? She is almost 16mths now.

She's also caught a few squirrels, my OH got two out of her mouth and a couple have managed to get away on their own. I have noticed over the last month or so that she is really concentrating on stalking and trying to catch small animals most of the time even while she's on a lead. There's not a lot of places I can let her off lead and I really dislike dog parks. When I let her go at my daughter's schooyard field there is not many squirrels or rabbits (few trees) so she will chase her ball. My OH does not like letting her off lead, he only does it at my insistence and would be even more upset about the rabbit than I am and I am very upset.  But I know he'll blame me so I'm not going to start a row by telling him.

We do recall with her between us on a drag line at the park, it is obviously not enough at all. Most of the time when I take her out and let her go I recall her on a whistle or I just walk in another direction as she generally will not go far without looking back for me and comes running up without being called. And gets a treat for that. I've read some really good books on understanding dogs and their behaviour, I'm such a dolt that I was even trying out some of the massage techniques and telepathic exercises.  (massage techniques are good though) What I really need to do is get off my philosophical arse and start concentrating more on command and recall training.

I have a teaser wand toy thingy that I bought from Ebay as they're not sold for dogs in Canada and she adores it so once I copy and paste all the excellent advice and print it out I'm going to start trying some of the exercises. I'll check and see if I can order a whistle here like the one mentioned. I'm also really interested in gundog training although I'm never going to shoot anything. We have some friends who go shooting a lot, my OH goes sometimes as well so I'll ask and see if I can get any info on that in my area.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed on this thread. I'm feeling a lot more positive now.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I've seen a few trainers say giving dogs squeaky toys encourages them to chase after prey. When you think about it it can only have that effect can't it, especially furry squeaky toys!


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Jonesey said:


> Sorry for opening this up if you were all through with it, but I really think it's a fantastic thread and should be made into a sticky (just so idiots like me can find it easier  ). I've been sitting her for over an hour reading the posts and most of the links.
> 
> Congrats Cleo, your progress is very heartening to me as I've been having a similar problem which came to a head last night when Biscuit caught and probably killed a rabbit. If it died I'm sure I'll hear about it from my son as she caught it on his schoolyard. I didn't think chasing was such a bad thing and certainly didn't think she'd be able to catch a rabbit, but she's a very fast little dog. And hearing it scream broke my heart. When I caught up she was lying down in front of it - I don't know if she even understood on a mental level what she did because she was looking at it expectantly as though waiting for it to jump or run again like it was a toy and the poor little thing was just lying there breathing shallowly. Does this have anything to do with her playing catch and tug with stuffies? (all of our kids' old stuffed animals became her toys and we play with them together all the time) Does it have anything to do with adolescence or maturation? She is almost 16mths now.
> 
> ...


If you do get to a gundog trainer, ask them to teach you the stop command on whistle.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

grandad said:


> If you do get to a gundog trainer, ask them to teach you the stop command on whistle.


I agree, that's a very important command. It's a lot to take in reading all at once, that's why I'd like to have a few hours more to copy and paste all the good advice from you and others and make myself a manual. I just don't think I can accomplish all of that training effectively on my own. I tend to learn and put things into action better when I have someone else directing IYKWIM. I'd like to use this information as a reference manual so I can find the right person to help.

And I've wanted to get back into training for a while now, but my OH doesn't care much for formal training beyond what we did in early puppyhood (and I was the one that went to all the classes - he came to graduation). He would be happy just taking her on long on lead walks and playing in the house and backyard - which is just fine as well and would certainly prevent her from catching and killing small animals. I want more than that so I'll have to do it myself.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Jonesey said:


> I agree, that's a very important command. It's a lot to take in reading all at once, that's why I'd like to have a few hours more to copy and paste all the good advice from you and others and make myself a manual. I just don't think I can accomplish all of that training effectively on my own. I tend to learn and put things into action better when I have someone else directing IYKWIM. I'd like to use this information as a reference manual so I can find the right person to help.
> 
> And I've wanted to get back into training for a while now, but my OH doesn't care much for formal training beyond what we did in early puppyhood (and I was the one that went to all the classes - he came to graduation). He would be happy just taking her on long on lead walks and playing in the house and backyard - which is just fine as well and would certainly prevent her from catching and killing small animals. I want more than that so I'll have to do it myself.


I train with professionals virtually every month. Even if we don't need it. A fresh pair of eyes is a god send. And I also attend a dog walking and dog training group that meets every week. we even invite pro trainers to joins us and advise us.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I've seen a few trainers say giving dogs squeaky toys encourages them to chase after prey. When you think about it it can only have that effect can't it, especially furry squeaky toys!


That makes sense.  Her toys don't squeak as they are childrens' stuffies, but she loves fetching, pouncing and tugging with them.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

grandad said:


> I train with professionals virtually every month. Even if we don't need it. A fresh pair of eyes is a god send. And I also attend a dog walking and dog training group that meets every week. we even invite pro trainers to joins us and advise us.


I'd love to be able to find something like that here.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I've seen a few trainers say giving dogs squeaky toys encourages them to chase after prey. When you think about it it can only have that effect can't it, especially furry squeaky toys!


I know what you mean - I haven't let them play with any 'fur' toys in case they do make an association. I was talking with GS about even feeding them rabbits with fur on in case they made the connection when chasing a rabbit & having a whole one with fur on for dinner!

Regarding squeaky toys I have found they have been a really useful distraction for the dogs. I've used squeaky kong balls & even just the squeaker replacements (I always have one in my hand now!) for any time I feel either of the dogs may bugger off, they have been more effective than the whistle although I am still concentrating on that.

The gun dog trainer warned me about young game birds who (if they can fly) fly low & make a similar squeaking noise so may prove to be particularly interesting to to dogs.

The other night we had exactly this happen. I could hear strange little squeaks but didn't know what they were. All of a sudden I realised that about 20 tiny partridge (red legged ones I think) were streaming across the field.

The dogs looked at them but I squeezed my squeaky ball & threw a couple for the dogs who immediately ignored the birds & shot off after their tennis balls!! hmy: I couldn't believe it! I think my timing (for a change) was spot on as I didn't give them a chance to weigh up the possibility of chasing the young birds but they just saw balls & took off instead.

I still think though that I may not be as successful if it were a rabbit or the dreaded deer  but each instance (I feel) is a small success.

Am glad this is proving useful to people - it has been brillaint for me as lots of fantastic advice has been given & I have lots to work with.

If anyone is interested these are the squeakers I use, they are easy to pop in to your pocket or keep in your hand aswell

Kong - Dog Toys - Dr Noys Spare Squeakers » Large: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies


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