# Urgent help please



## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

please can someone help me, my cat Mac is one and a half and recently he lost the colour in his nose and gums but has been acting normal just eating a little less than normal, but he ate well this morning, we took him to the vet today as his nose was slightly yellow the vet admitted him, he has a high temperature and is anemic, 
he has been tested for fiv and felv but both are inconclusive, ive just spoken to my vet who seems to think he will have to be put to sleep, as she thinks he has fiv and that the symptoms mean hes too late for treatment, they said his blood count was low but apart from an IV of fluids and anti biotics they were not willing to do anything else, they said a blood transfusion will help but wont give him one and no other vets are open as its saturday night...i dont know know what to do next, will a blood transfusion help him?? if i can get him over this anemia can he live with fiv?
what else can cause anemia
and what can cause inconclusive tests??


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I am so sorry to read about your poor cat, I don't have any help I am afraid, hopefully someone will be along soon who might know more, 
I wonder though if it could be a liver problem if he has got yellowing
I am sure the vet would do more if he thought he thought it possible
How is your cat now?
I thought cats could live with FIV but maybe it has gone too far, so sorry I cant help more


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

to be honest the vet didnt seem to know what was happening, they are waiting for more test results but still want me to have him put to sleep...ive found a vet who opens on a sunday so hopefully i can get him there tomorrow and get some better care...


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Anaemia in cats can be caused by fleas, kidney disease or FIV but I know that cats can live with FIV a normal life,


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

his fiv test was inconclusive, hes been acting normally so i am in complete shock right now, he was playing this morning...i will have him retested but it looks like i will bringing him home tomorrow and finding another vet.
thank you


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Sorry to hear puss isn't well 

I would certainly advise a 2nd opinion from another vet

In case it is FIV, this may help provide some reassuring info

Feline Cat Rescue - FIV explained

Best of luck in getting a diagnosis and fingers crossed he's on the mend soon


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Sorry your cat is so poorly, I would definitely get the second opinion and decide what to do after that. Good luck and fingers crossed for you.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

LostSoul said:


> .,
> he has been tested for fiv and felv but both are inconclusive, ive just spoken to my vet who seems to think he will have to be put to sleep, as she thinks he has fiv and that the symptoms mean hes too late for treatment, they said his blood count was low but apart from an IV of fluids and anti biotics they were not willing to do anything else, they said a blood transfusion will help but wont give him one and no other vets are open as its saturday night...i dont know know what to do next, will a blood transfusion help him?? if i can get him over this anemia can he live with fiv?
> what else can cause anemia
> and what can cause inconclusive tests??


Firstly, the in-house snap tests for FIV/FelV are notoriously unreliable (you have to send tests away for confirmation) so it's unclear why your vet appears to be basing her decision on this status. which can only be a mere suspicion at this point. How old is this vet?

If they are suggesting a transfusion then it sounds as if the blood count is quite low indeed-so appears as if this has been going on for a long time. Why are they refusing one? There are numerous causes of anaemia, including a simple blood parasite which can be easily treated with antibiotics. Actually, the yellow nose strongly suggests jaundice to me which can occur with this type of haemolytic anaemia so I'd be very suspicious of this in the first instance._ So please do ensure they test for this though I do know it may not always show up on a blood smear._ Of course it may also indicate liver disease in which case then the anaemia is most like due to chronic illness.

You're right to seek a second opinion elsewhere. I certainly wouldn't give up on him at this point.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Ianthi said:


> Firstly, the in-house snap tests for FIV/FelV are notoriously unreliable (you have to send tests away for confirmation) so it's unclear why your vet appears to be basing her decision on this status. which can only be a mere suspicion at this point. How old is this vet?
> 
> If they are suggesting a transfusion then it sounds as if the blood count is quite low indeed-so appears as if this has been going on for a long time. Why are they refusing one? There are numerous causes of anaemia, including a simple blood parasite which can be easily treated with antibiotics. Actually, the yellow nose strongly suggests jaundice to me which can occur with this type of haemolytic anaemia so I'd be very suspicious of this in the first instance._ So please do ensure they test for this though I do know it may not always show up on a blood smear._ Of course it may also indicate liver disease in which case then the anaemia is most like due to chronic illness.
> 
> You're right to seek a second opinion elsewhere. I certainly wouldn't give up on him at this point.


Thank you, i dont know why the vet wont do a transfusion, its a covering emergency vet and they said they just 'patch them up and send them on' im just so heartbroken im not thinking straight, he definitely has jaundice, his nose isnt bright yellow but there was a yellow tinge to it, also his gums were pale , just spoken to the night vet and was told again he's very sick and i need to make a decision, they told me hes too quiet...hes very quiet anyway, doesnt purr or meow, i just cant understand what could be wrong, he was literaly running up my walls this morning and stealing my other cats food, apart from the colour change of his nose i wouldnt have known anything was wrong...im planning on bringing him home tomorrow, whatever he has isnt going to treated there, i need to find a vet willing to help and if there is no help he will stay at home with me.


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

Can't help but keeping my fingers crossed for you.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

How far away is the vets? Could you go an visit him yourself? This is a tough one but since he's not making any progress there I'd be tempted to take him home or to another practice-all depending on his condition of course.

OOH vets should certainly be able to carry out a blood transfusion in view of the acute cases they see. I would call them now and ask why they're unable to give this. I'd also ask about what type of antibiotics he's on as this could confirm my own suspicions as to the cause.

Thinking about all this it sounds very likely to me it is the form of anaemia I mentioned earlier (parasitic cause) and I reckon this is what the vets are suspecting. Although it can be more common in cats who are FeLV + I see this as no reason to give up on treatment as for one thing we don't know if your cat is and it's also very early days!


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

im trying to find a different vet who will help me but its sunday and the emergency clinic is the one my cat is already at, they have given him steroids, antibiotics and fluids...but they wont give him any other treatment there, they are now saying that because his fiv and felv are inconclusive he must fip but all other blood tests have to be sent away for analysis and we wont get the results for a few days and they wont be sent until tomorrow, now they are telling me to put him to sleep before the results come back which just isnt happening...they also keep saying he must have been off his food which he most definitely wasnt, i just want him home....


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> but they wont give him any other treatment there, they are now saying that because his fiv and felv are inconclusive he must fip


These are ridiculous statements. They may turn out to be true but cannot possibly be valid claims in the absence of test results.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

They can't keep him against your wishes, though taking him home against their advice might be tricky if you are claiming on insurance. Is your own vet open tomorrow (Monday)? Think you need to take him there ASAP.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

stupidly i have no insurance...but i have money to pay for whatever he needs..The clinic he is at now is actually my usual vet but it also used as an emergency clinic for other vets after hours, ive found a vet who opens on sunday and im just waiting for them to open so i can find out what they can do to help and then i will visiting my cat, he is still on fluids but that is all so i think i will either bring him home or take him straight to the other vet, depending on the info from the other vet.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Good luck with the other vet if you can see him, I certainly wouldn't let this vet put him to sleep, until all avenues have been explored, if your cat was eating ok, then I cant see that he is as ilol as the vet is making out, at least not ill enough to pts x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

just phoned 3 other vets none will do blood transfusions, im stuck now...i thought all vets had to help a sick animal.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

LostSoul said:


> just phoned 3 other vets none will do blood transfusions, im stuck now...i thought all vets had to help a sick animal.


How is he doing now?

Reasons? Of course it may be a case of not being able to source donors. Have you tried Vets Now or Medivet chaina as (as far as I know) they usually can. Here's a link to a blood bank at Davies.

Contact us

On the other hand a different vet may well feel based on clinical signs, he _doesn't_ need one. Without knowing the PCV I can't say for sure though I know it also depends on how the animal is coping.

I would definitely take him to a different vet as chances are your current one will 'be in agreement' with the OOH one at the practice.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Suggest you collect him and ring round other vets for a second opinion. Try to find one who does their own bloods rather than send it all away. Mine usually does unless thyroid is needed.

Did you ask your vet why they won't transfuse him? As said above, it could be lack of donors.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

i just had some good news Macs blood count has raised over night , they now think he doesnt need a transfusion and today he tested fiv negative and the vets have said they've seen him eating so they know he has a good appetite, we still to find the sorce of the jaundice and i know hes not out of the woods yet but at least there is a little hope now...im off to see him


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sounds like it was an infection of some sort and the antibiotics have kicked in. Good news!


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

LostSoul said:


> i just had some good news Macs blood count has raised over night , they now think he doesnt need a transfusion and today he tested fiv negative and the vets have said they've seen him eating so they know he has a good appetite, we still to find the sorce of the jaundice and i know hes not out of the woods yet but at least there is a little hope now...im off to see him


Really good news! Sounds as if the antibiotics are working then. Just out of interest, did you mention you were going to seek a second opinion elsewhere? Often it works wonders in terms of newly acquired competence and effort!!

Alternatively a different vet has taken over Mac's case.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Ianthi said:


> Really good news! Sounds as if the antibiotics are working then. Just out of interest, did you mention you were going to seek a second opinion elsewhere? Often it works wonders in terms of newly acquired competence and effort!!
> 
> Alternatively a different vet has taken over Mac's case.


Funnily enough i phoned a specialist this morning and the nurse i spoke to used to work at my vets and she phoned them to tell them i had been asking about a referal and reminded them it was their duty to help all sick animals...10 minutes later my vet rung me to tell me Mac was FIV negative and asked to go and visit him...

His temperature is dropping and he's now tested FELV negative too and whatever has caused the anemia seems to be something hes had for a long time, his blood count was so low he shouldnt have been able to survive but his body has adapted to running on less oxygen, he's a year and a half old and was about 4 months when i got him, he was abandoned at my home, badly under weight and covered in fleas...i know the anemia still could be something bad, i was warned today about certain cancers, liver or kidney disease but i guess all i can do is wait and see, if his blood levels raise again i might be bringing him home tomorrow while we wait for the other test results.

i was so angry with that vet yesterday, she told me she was sorry for my loss when mac was still very much alive and i lost all faith in that clinic, unfortunately i couldnt find another vet willing to take him in the condition he was in so he had to stay but now they are actually trying to help him.

I saw my boy today, he looks so much better, i know hes still very poorly though but he purred and headbutted me, even with his leg bandaged up he tried to climb on my shoulder....i hated leaving him there


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

From what you say of his history, I would think the anaemia could have started way back when you got him if he had a really bad flea infestation which are notoriously known to cause anaemia in kittens. It could have just rumbled on un-noticed because he still seems fairly lively until it reached this stage. I had a young cat once who had to be put to sleep because he was anaemic (due to long period of having to take steroids) and he could hardly stand up he was so weak. No matter how many times I raised concerns with my vet as I saw him deteriorating, it was just shrugged off and ignored so I took him to another vet who told me he hardly had any blood in him and it was too late to do anything. Its amazing how they can go on even when seriously unwell. I hope the results won't turn out to be anything bad but whatever happens, I would change vets or possibly ask for a referral to the specialists if necessary.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

i just had a phone call from the vet asking if mac had ever been out of the country or if he had ever had ticks....they said they were trying to make sense of the what they could see under the microscope...when i asked what they could , see she said not a lot...i dont know if thats a good thing or not, i panic everytime the phone rings...but on a plus side mac is still as active as he was earlier today.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Charity said:


> From what you say of his history, I would think the anaemia could have started way back when you got him if he had a really bad flea infestation which are notoriously known to cause anaemia in kittens.
> <snip>.


I believe he's 18 months old - assuming his fleas were dealt with promptly I can't see them being the cause of the anaemia 12 months down the line unless there's something else going on.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

yes hes about 18 months old, he was about 4 months when i got him and was covered with fleas, they were every where, in his ears, between his toes even in his eyes, he was badly under weight and really quite sick, i treated his fleas the night i got him and the vet gave him another treatment the next day and i was told he was anemic but once the fleas were dealt with he would be fine...hes seen the vet a few times since then with an ear infection, being neutered and for his vaccinations, and recently for panting when he was playing, they said he had good colour and couldnt see anything obviously wrong.
he was originally sold on facebook and i traced who sold him and was told that he been basically living in their garden even though the mum cat was a house cat, she actually died not long after i got mac but i dont know what off i believe they thought she'd been poisoned.

this is mac Mac, aged 1. | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

His nose is rather pale in that photo, I think this has been going on for some time. Abnormal panting after playing is another sign of anaemia. If his nose was that colour then I'm surprised they thought his colour was OK.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

his nose has always been that pale...except when he really runs around then it gets darker and he was panting,I had him checked 3 months ago and they said he was fine, i took him especially because of his panting but they checked his hear and gums and said nothing was obviously wrong....it seems like they were wrong.

another photo taken a couple of months ago showing his pale nose 

__
https://flic.kr/p/8412709824


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I'll dig out some photos of the black & white cat I used to have, maybe I'm not used to the colour of nose when the fur is white, but it struck me as very pale. Maybe the photo isn't that accurate either.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

its only now looking back at photos that i realise how pale macs nose has been, in some photos of him aged about 6 months or so his nose is quite pink after that when he got bigger its pale....im surprised the vet didnt investigate his panting more and im mad at myself because i had a niggle that there was something very wrong but i ignored it, ive owned cats for years and had never had one pant like him but the vet said he was just panting because he was hot because his fur is long...hes also seen the vet in the past because his breath is awful they keep telling me its just simply bad breath but it all looks like symptoms of something else....now i just hope he can recover form whatever it is. :frown::frown:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

LostSoul said:


> please can someone help me, my cat Mac is one and a half and recently he lost the colour in his nose and gums but has been acting normal just eating a little less than normal, but he ate well this morning, we took him to the vet today as his nose was slightly yellow the vet admitted him, he has a high temperature and is anemic,
> he has been tested for fiv and felv but both are inconclusive, ive just spoken to my vet who seems to think he will have to be put to sleep, as she thinks he has fiv and that the symptoms mean hes too late for treatment, they said his blood count was low but apart from an IV of fluids and anti biotics they were not willing to do anything else, they said a blood transfusion will help but wont give him one and no other vets are open as its saturday night...i dont know know what to do next, will a blood transfusion help him?? if i can get him over this anemia can he live with fiv?
> what else can cause anemia
> and what can cause inconclusive tests??


There is a condition called autoimmune haemolytic anemia which I know can affect dogs and it can affect cats too. It can be a stand alone problem where thee body makes antibodies against its own red blood cells and kills them off.
You can get Primary haemolytic anemia which means its the only and complete cause, or secondary which is a knock on affect from Feline leukemia, 
or FIV, cancer, drugs, or toxins. The yellow is usually caused by high levels of bilirubin caused by the break down of red blood cells.

If it is Primary Autoimmune disease ie not secondary and caused by another disease then usually immune suppressants are usually used like steroids or others. if the anemia is really severe then after taking the blood tests to determine cause then usually a transfusion is often given to stabalise the animal while the cause can be found out and then once the cause is determined then the appropriate treatment can be given.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

LostSoul said:


> i just had a phone call from the vet asking if mac had ever been out of the country or if he had ever had ticks....they said they were trying to make sense of the what they could see under the microscope...when i asked what they could , see she said not a lot...i dont know if thats a good thing or not, i panic everytime the phone rings...but on a plus side mac is still as active as he was earlier today.


With auto immune haemolytic anemia the number and percentage of red blood cells will be low and when the cells are looked at under a microscope the size and shape of the cells will be abnormal and you often get abnormal clumping too.

Secondary auto immune haemolytic anemia can also be caused my blood parasites one in particular called Mycoplasma haemofelis which is a bacterial parasite and as long as there is no other infection like Feline Leukemia it is also regenerative. It seems too that M.Haemofelis can be carried and transmitted by fleas too and infect susceptible cats. More about it on the Link below.

https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/clinpath/modules/rbcmorph/mycoplasma-felis.htm


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> With auto immune haemolytic anemia the number and percentage of red blood cells will be low and when the cells are looked at under a microscope the size and shape of the cells will be abnormal and you often get abnormal clumping too.
> 
> Secondary auto immune haemolytic anemia can also be caused my blood parasites one in particular called Mycoplasma haemofelis which is a bacterial parasite and as long as there is no other infection like Feline Leukemia it is also regenerative. It seems too that M.Haemofelis can be carried and transmitted by fleas too and infect susceptible cats. More about it on the Link below.
> 
> https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/clinpath/modules/rbcmorph/mycoplasma-felis.htm


Thank you and thank you for the link, mac has tested negative for fiv and felv, he did have a huge flea problem but that was over a year ago in august 2012 when i first got him but he was around 4 months then and how long he'd had the fleas is any ones guess.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

LostSoul said:


> i just had a phone call from the vet asking if mac had ever been out of the country or if he had ever had ticks....they said they were trying to make sense of the what they could see under the microscope...when i asked what they could , see she said not a lot...


Is this the (same) vet who was advocating PTS last night? If so, I would be inclined to take her speculating with a pinch of salt. Your best bet is to wait for the results from the outside lab where a vet pathologist will give a much better assessment. Not all vets are skilled in looking at smears etc

Actually, I find it difficult to understand why they don't appear to have narrowed things down by now or at least have a few things in mind? What are the suggestion so far?


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Ianthi said:


> Is this the (same) vet who was advocating PTS last night? If so, I would be inclined to take her speculating with a pinch of salt. Your best bet is to wait for the results from the outside lab where a vet pathologist will give a much better assessment. Not all vets are skilled in looking at smears etc
> 
> Actually, I find it difficult to understand why they don't appear to have narrowed things down by now or at least have a few things in mind? What are the suggestion so far?


yes its the same vet, its the company who covers for my vets out of hours and the same vet has been there both saturday and sunday...i will speak to my own vet tomorrow when they open. The vet tried to cover herself today by saying she was looking at macs blood count numbers and not at him, she said his number was so low he should have been dead...well he wasnt and her saying to me sorry for your loss when he was very much alive just made me so angry.

they are still talking about certain types of cancer, liver disease or maybe kidney disease...fiv and felv are both negative today but he will be checked again, they seem to think this is something hes had for a long time seeing as his body seems to have adapted to run on less oxygen, my cat doesnt seem sick at all today, which makes it more heartbreaking leaving him there, his nose is pinker than ive ever seen it before but they said his skin and blood was very yellow,
the room was quite dark when i saw him earlier so i couldnt actualy see the yellow skin where they shaved him...the other test results wont be back until around thursday or friday, i hate the thought of him staying there for that long....i have no more idea of whats wrong with him than i did yesterday and to be honest the vet doesnt seem to know either. They seemed shocked when i mentioned he'd been at the vets a few months for panting, obviously this was a side effect of something happening but i was fobbed off and told he was just getting hot....i really need a new vet!!


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

Actually since Mac appears to be responding to treatment ie medications you can give at home I'd speak to your own vet about discharging him.

Unless they've a backlog at the lab you should have (at least some of) the tests in a few days. Actually I'd have though liver or kidney disease would be fairly easy to diagnose/rule out at this point. Personally I can't see how kidney disease has been suggested ( it's seems extremely unlikely) unless his levels were elevated, of course but they've have told you this.

Let us know how it goes tomorrow and good luck!


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

I hope you get some answers - and your vets attitude astounds me!

As you have insurance, I would ask for Mac to be referred to a hospital that will go to town on tests, and really find out what is wrong with him.

In the meantime I would be looking for a new vet that would have advised that in the first place, if they really couldnt deal with his problem in house.

I know that vets arent the all knowing knowledge of everything - but a_ good_ vet will know that, and refer on - not recommend PTS just because they dont know the answer 

My vet didnt know the answer, they referred me, we found the extremely rare answer and almost a year on all meds have been weaned off, and we are hoping it never flares up again - but if it does, they know what they are looking for this time!

Good luck with a diagnosis, and welcome to the forum


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

its one step forwards and 2 steps back ....my usual vet took over today and i thought i would finally get some answers but nope, they seem to think that its macs liver and have started him some sort of meds, but so far they havent sent any bloods away and they seemed shocked that he was jaundice, thats the reason hes there in the first place...i asked why the bloods werent sent and i was told they were busy, fair enough but hes been there since saturday surely something should have been done by now...and then when i asked what time i could visit mac i was told i couldnt and he could be there all week because hes now refusing to eat, he ate just fine yesterday when i was there...now if i transfer him to the other vet in my area they will move him again after hours back to where he is now as they use the same clinic.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If they have to send blood away it's probably not going to get taken on Saturday or Sunday unless they can get it into a Sunday evening delivery.  That's why I'm so glad my vet has their own machine which does most of the things. They send thyroid away as it's very specialist but they do liver, kidney bilirubin, PCV and several others. Suspect they send blood away if they want an FBC - a count of the different types of blood cell.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> If they have to send blood away it's probably not going to get taken on Saturday or Sunday unless they can get it into a Sunday evening delivery.  That's why I'm so glad my vet has their own machine which does most of the things. They send thyroid away as it's very specialist but they do liver, kidney bilirubin, PCV and several others. Suspect they send blood away if they want an FBC - a count of the different types of blood cell.


i know they've done some blood tests there because the vet phoned me last night but now it seems the regular vet doesnt know what the emergency vet has done or whats wrong with my boy....i asked how long mac was likely to be there for and a sarky nurse just told me he'll stay as long as he stays there, thats if he ever comes home again. 
im astounded...ive never had a bad word to say about my vet before and ive been using them for years, ive already sent of a few emails complaining but haven't heard anything back...and i doubt i ever will. :mad2:


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I must say I don't like the sound of your vet at all:frown: You're not allowed to visit Mac (why), and a sarky nurse tells you he'll be there for as long as it takes or whatever (sounds very rude), on top of which the vet doesn't seem any closer to knowing what's wrong with Mac. And this I understand was the same vet who was advising pts a few days ago  Sounds to me like they are floundering with a diagnosis. 

I would be inclined to find another vet practice pronto, myself or even ask for a referral to a specialist urgently. If you want to move him you'd need to explain first to a new vet that you're not happy with the treatment he is getting at present, and want to move him. I had to do this once with one of my cats (RIP), who was treated incompetently by the first vet. 

It is really important you are allowed to visit Mac at the vets - for a start you may be able to get him to eat.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Its at the same place but a different company, my vets is used by an after hours vets comapany...they run in the same building when my vets is closed, the other local vets also use the same out of hours clinic so he would have to be transfered to a different surgery and then when they close he would be moved again to where he is now...ive spoken to 2 specialist and both said they would carry on with his treatment where he is right now, one did say they would help if he was stable but not until their full staff is back after the new year and the other said to be honest they wouldnt take him on. 
All i want is help for my boy and i cant seem to get any .....


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

You have run up against a common problem when vets don't do their own out of hours cover. It may be worth your while ringing around until you find one which does even if the travel is difficult. The system you are under at present means no vet will have to take responsibility if something goes wrong - they'll each say it was the fault of the other.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Travel is a big problem for me as i am disabled but mac is more important than i am so i will be ringing new vets in the morning....i'll get him there somehow


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

ive just got back from seeing maccy, he still doesnt look sick at all..in the year or so we've had him he has only meowed twice but he meowed loads when he saw us tonight,
the vet said his bloodcount hasnt risen today but its stayed stable and his body seems to be fine with it the way it is, which again makes them think this is something hes had for a long time, they are still thinking fiv or felv even though he tested negative yesterday, his tests were inconclusive today same as they were on saturday, the optimist in me is thinking 2 inconclusive tests and one negative is a good thing as there have been no positives...but they have sent of blood tests to see if he is positive so we should get those soon.
The vet said it also could be leukemia or a parasite or infectious anemia?...we've just got to wait and see, he really doesnt seem sick, he ate while we were there and looked so sad when we had to go...
im so torn, when im there the vet is wonderful but the people i speak to on the phone are so rude....i dont want to move him if they are helping him but dont want to leave him there if they're not doing enough.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Sorry if I've missed something but what is he staying in for at the moment? Is he on fluids? 
If there is no major reason for keeping him in then I would rather bring him home too 
It feels wrong to say this but I really do wonder if once a vet hears that a pet is insured then the goal posts change and money is a big factor. Why did they say he had to remain at the vets for the whole week? 
So sorry to hear you are going through this, but pleased you think he seemed better today


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Yes he is on an IV of fluids, he also had a very high temperature which is lowering nicely, this morning they said they wouldnt send him home because his blood serum? was yellow and they were worried...same as they said yesterday, 
although he didnt look jaundice today but again the light was poor so i couldnt see very well...but i could see his lovely pink nose and gums. the vet tonight said she really wants him there until the test results come back but they have to be sent away and because of new year it will take longer to get them back...but she is the out of hours vet not my regular vet, i dont want to bring him home too early and make him worse but im sure he would be so much happier here with us.

does anyone know how reliable the in house tests for fiv and felv are...they seem to keep testing again and again
and if he is positive what will that mean for my other 2 cats?


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> If they have to send blood away it's probably not going to get taken on Saturday or Sunday unless they can get it into a Sunday evening delivery.  That's why I'm so glad my vet has their own machine which does most of the things. They send thyroid away as it's very specialist but they do liver, kidney bilirubin, PCV and several others. Suspect they send blood away if they want an FBC - a count of the different types of blood cell.


Practically every vet has an in-house analyser for a blood chemistry and haematology (and an OOH most certainly would) but these can in some cases become quite unreliable. Also the equipment can only provide results up to a certain ceiling. In addition, but very important, it's also about _interpretation_ of the results-something in my experience, not all general vets are skilled at ( the number of types I've heard the 'bloods were fine' but when I obtained copies I could see they weren't) whereas the external labs employ trained veterinary pathologists etc to do this.

For these reasons I always prefer to rely on the results that have been been sent out to an external lab.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

You really need _full_ blood tests to find out what is wrong.
You need to know his liver function, globulins, white blood cell count as well as red, and a few other things.

It may be any number of things, including various viral infections. Did they put him on antibiotics and/or antiviral meds? If it is FIP, it's a lost cause, but it may be some other infection Mac CAN beat with proper treatment.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Mac is currently on iv fluids, steroids and antibiotics and today they started him on something for his liver...i ment to ask the vet what it was called but my brain goes blank when i go there, he just looks too healthy to be so sick. 

Fip was mentioned on saturday but not since...
it just seems that they now think if they do enough fiv/felv tests they'll get a possitive result...and im scared what that will mean for my other cats who are 4 and 10....and by the way when i first got mac i asked 2 different clinics if he needed tested and they both said no he would be unlucky to get anything like that, i didnt know much about it then so i just went with what they said..


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> does anyone know how reliable the in house tests for fiv and felv are...they seem to keep testing again and again


The in house snap tests are reasonably reliable if the result is negative. They can give false positives. A positive or inconclusive result should be followed by sending a blood sample off to a lab for a conclusive result. Repeated snap tests over a short period are pointless and I can't see any reason for them other than to add to the bill. You need to demand an explanation for such actions.

These tests are notorious as an easy money generator. The average owner has no idea what they are or whether there is any diagnostic value in repeated testing. I have seen situations where inpatients have been tested daily and no vet can possibly justify it if questioned. I'd suggest you demand paper copies of the daily records and question every entry. If they try to say you can't have them because they are 'medical records' or any other sort of rubbish come back on here. They are YOUR records as you are the client and you are legally entitled to them.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

moggie14 said:


> It feels wrong to say this but I really do wonder if once a vet hears that a pet is insured then the goal posts change and money is a big factor.


Cat is not insured ......



LostSoul said:


> the vet tonight said she really wants him there until the test results come back but they have to be sent away and because of new year it will take longer to get them back...but she is the out of hours vet not my regular vet, i dont want to bring him home too early and make him worse but im sure he would be so much happier here with us.


I agree with Havoc - if blood has already been sent away for testing then having daily snap tests done is a complete waste of time & money 

I think you need to have a frank discussion with this vet and ask exactly why he needs to stay and if it is essential

It is a long time until after the NY and that's going to be a hefty bill - if it's needed then that's one thing but if it's not then ....

I do believe there is a time when they need to be kept in at the vets - but I do also believe that many of them do better at home so, if at all possible and not detrimental to their treatment, I would prefer them to be at home

(even if that means on cage rest on a drip - which I've done before)


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

I found a local'ish vet who doesnt send away bloods , the problem is its new years eve and their after hours clinic is quite litterally miles away, too far for me to get to and they said they would have to start all the tests from scratch so i will be paying twice...i can take mac there today but then he will be transfered at 4pm and stay in their out of hours surgery until thursday and they said that wouldnt give them enough time to get the tests done before he is transfered,

Mac wont be home today, vet said he was doing really well but then vomited bile in the night, they couldnt tell me how much or how many times just that it had happened, hes eaten this mornng and is very affectionate but he wont be home..
I asked why he was having daily snap tests and was told because they are convinced he has felv simply because that would make sense, i told them its stupid that they keep focusing on one thing that they nned to try looking at other options...


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## korrok (Sep 4, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> Cat is not insured ......
> 
> I agree with Havoc - if blood has already been sent away for testing then having daily snap tests done is a complete waste of time & money
> 
> ...


I can only agree with this, being in such a stressful environment alone can make them go right off their food, affect their toileting habits and cause vomiting etc. I may be being overly cynical but given how much extra cash they will make from keeping a cat as an inpatient over the holiday...I can't help but be suspicious of them refusing to let him home without any good reason. Never mind all these repeated tests without any good explanation either.

I've never known a good vet who hasn't been keen to have a patient at home whenever at all possible just due to the stress factor.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

moggie14 said:


> Sorry if I've missed something but what is he staying in for at the moment? Is he on fluids?
> If there is no major reason for keeping him in then I would rather bring him home too
> It feels wrong to say this but I really do wonder if once a vet hears that a pet is insured then the goal posts change and money is a big factor. Why did they say he had to remain at the vets for the whole week?
> So sorry to hear you are going through this, but pleased you think he seemed better today


The OP said she isn't insured, but they seem to be dragging out how long the cat stays at the vets, if it were me I think I would bring him home, until after the holidays at least


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I asked why he was having daily snap tests and was told because they are convinced he has felv


You must stand your ground and tell them you will be challenging this. There is simply NO justification.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

LostSoul said:


> I asked why he was having daily snap tests and was told because they are convinced he has felv


AND they've sent away blood for proper analysis so why are they still doing snap tests - which aren't reliable and can and do give false positives

They are wasting your money (sorry) ....


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

We don't know what test have been requested on the blood sent away - if FeLV / FIV are included.

However what is the rate of false negatives, and what does 'indecisive' mean? That a control spot developed colour?

If the rate of false negatives is (say) 5%, then so long as whatever makes a false negative once doesn't affect a subsequent test, then the chances of two false negatives are 5% of 5% - 0.25%. A third one and it's 0.0125% in other words vanishingly small.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

just got a call from the vet, macs bloods are back and they said they are 99% sure now he has felv, wouldnt tell me anything else over the phone except the lab is running more tests right now and will call with the results later...
now i know this is basically a death sentence for my boy but i dont know what that means for my other cats, 
they are vaccinated, aged 4 and 10 and have been sharing a litter tray and food bowl with mac for over a year so there is no point seperating them now...the vet seems to think i need to keep them apart but i really dont have the room and surely if they've been living together all this time if he has it then they have it...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> However what is the rate of false negatives,


So low as to be insignificant if they happen at all. It's generally accepted that the snap test can give false positives but not false negatives. Now, a positive result will cause further investigation with more accurate testing so we know for sure that false positives are possible. A negative result on the snap test doesn't tend to lead to further investigation which is why I'm not saying false negatives can't ever happen - but I'd trust a negative.



> what does 'indecisive' mean? That a control spot developed colour?


You can get a 'weak' positive showing. I only know of one person who had this happen and it was for FIV. In that case they were advised to wait a few weeks and retest in house. They did and it was clear. Their vet was therefore working on the premise that you can get false positives but not false negatives.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

it was the snap tests that gave 2 inconclusive felv tests, they said it was too pale to tell either way, one definite negative and now the bloods they sent of are showing positve, ive got to wait until the lab gets back to me...the vet advised me not to bring him home as my other cats will get infected, surely after a year they would already be infected, they are all vaccinated against it...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Surely you can bring him home but not let him have close contact with your others. Unless they go in for prolonged mutual grooming sessions there is little risk. 

I think you need to ask for a copies of all test results.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> now the bloods they sent of are showing positve, ive got to wait until the lab gets back to me...


Confused. Surely the labs have already sent the results to the vet??


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

havoc said:


> Confused. Surely the labs have already sent the results to the vet??


apparently the lab is retesting somthing and will be phoning through with that result..but if they are restesting for felv (which is what i believe) shouldnt they use a different blood sample???


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> apparently the lab is retesting somthing and will be phoning through with that result..but if they are restesting for felv (which is what i believe) shouldnt they use a different blood sample???


None of this is sounding right. I repeat, you need to insist on seeing all records.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LostSoul said:


> it was the snap tests that gave 2 inconclusive felv tests, they said it was too plae to tell either way, one definite negative and now the bloods they sent of are showing positve, ive got to wait until the lab gets back to me...the vet advised me not to bring him home as my other cats will get infected, surely after a year they would already be infected, they are all vaccinated against it...


As they have been sharing food bowls and litter trays for a year with Mac, and they are vaccinated I can't see how they could be at any greater risk if you bring him home. What are you supposed to do with him otherwise?

I am not sure why he still needs to be on IV fluids - he has been on them for days now surely? How do they know he is not able to function without IV fluids? If this is the only reason he can't come home I would challenge them.

Vomiting bile could just mean he is not eating much, or not eating regularly enough, and as a result is getting too much acid in his tummy. He might eat better at home, and you would be able to offer him little meals as often as possible.

Even if it turns out Mac does have FeLV it does not need to be an immediate death sentence. With good supportive care and a calm, loving environment Mac could have several more years of good quality life ahead of him. I would not let them talk you into having him pts. This should only be considered if he was very ill, which he is NOT at present, bless him, as I understand it.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> Even if it turns out Mac does have FeLV it does not need to be an immediate death sentence. With good supportive care and a calm, loving environment Mac could have several more years of good quality life ahead of him. I would not let them talk you into having him pts. This should only be considered if he was very ill, which he is NOT at present, bless him, as I understand it.


thank you i really needed to hear this...
since the day i got him ive had a niggle that something wasnt right..i should have tried harder to find out what it was but i guess it wouldnt have made any difference to the outcome. He was left with me 2 weeks after i lost my 19 year old cat to cancer and i really didnt want him...now i cant imagine my life without him


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Chillminx is absolutely right. I think you are being spun a bit of a yarn by the vets. Your cat may be FeLV +ve but I don't feel you are being advised and supported as you should be. Something isn't right.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

im sure my head is going to explode, Macs 2nd lab test for FELV was a definite negative, im so scared to get my hopes up...so thats 2 inconclusive snap tests, one negative...one positive blood test (or one that they said showed he was 90% positive????) and one definite negative

so to me that means he is negative...
i know im waffling a load of nonsense im just trying to make sense of things and everyone on here has been so helpfull ...i really do appreciate every single comment xxx


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'll say again - you need to insist on seeing the records including all test results. Playing devil's advocate, if we allow for you being very upset maybe you're not taking in/understanding fully what they're saying. However, even allowing for that I don't think you're getting the service you should. I find it very interesting that they claimed to have got a +ve result from the lab soon after you questioned the repeated use of snap tests. I'd guess you are questioning them a bit more closely after being on here and then they made these wild claims about the lab retesting and everything being done over the phone. It just doesn't work like that.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Its the after hours vets running now, so i have to wait to talk to the covering vet in an hour, according to my vet this afternoon the lab sent the results back and looking at them they were 90% sure they showed he was FELV positive (now surely it should have 100% either way?) but the vet contacted the lab and asked them to retest to be sure, i dont know if thats what happened or not but that is what i was told, i was told the lab would ring me but it was the receptionist at my vet who phoned and said the test showed a definite negative so they dont know whats going on with him and cant find a reason for his anemia....and apparently it is only the after hours vet who has repeated the snap tests...probably so i will have to pay more.
i have asked for all his notes but was told i will have to wait until the surgery is open properly on thursday to get print outs but they will talk me through everything if i can get to visit mac later tonight, 

i do get very upset when i talk to them but i write everything down as they say it because i know i will forget, and my husband is with me when we visit and he never forgets...anything!! 
i also have met a lovely lady online who runs blind cat recue and sanctuary in america, she has fiv and felv cats in her santuary and has given me so much info...just as the lovely people on here have , i know i keep repeating myself and i must be driving everyone mad, it just makes things easier for me to write things down and get other opinions...i really am very grateful for all the help xxx


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't really believe you aren't getting it right. It's more that I'm trying to be even handed because I'm furious on your behalf. While these vets have been hell bent on proving your cat is FeLV +ve they've been racking up a HUGE bill and not getting any further forward.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Thats my whole point with the vets, obviously Mac is sick and hes in the best place if they are helping him but while they keep focusing on trying to get a positive result to felv they could be ignoring something else that is happening....fingers crossed i get to see a vet later and god help them if they dont let me see my boy tonight..


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

I completely agree. This is what it's all about IMO. They haven't been able to diagnose (for whatever reason) what's wrong with Mac and of course an FeLv/FiV+ would provide an 'easy' answer. It's not the first time I've seen this type of 'fixating' happen in vet medicine-I knew one once where renal failure was the answer to everything! At any rate you have a negative now so hopefully they'll move on.

Actually, I would just turn up there tonight. I'd also pre-prepare a list of questions and write down all the answers as you're told them! I can certainly think of a few , if you'd like!


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

any ideas and questions would be appreciated, my husband decided to just turn up at the vets to try to get some answers but he managed to turn up at the exact same time as the owner of a dog who had been hit by a car...they told him they had a skeleton staff and were too busy and to try again later ...but that we could go any time tomorrow and see mac and a vet, i will definitely be trying to see him later tonight.

i wont be using this vet anymore in future...its a shame because they have been so good with my other cats in the past but i dont trust them now and that will never change.


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## korrok (Sep 4, 2013)

Ianthi said:


> It's not the first time I've seen this type of 'fixating' happen in vet medicine-I knew one once where renal failure was the answer to everything! At any rate you have a negative now so hopefully they'll move on.


To be fair it's common as anything in human medicine too...absolutely not unique to our pets. 



> i wont be using this vet anymore in future...its a shame because they have been so good with my other cats in the past but i dont trust them now and that will never change.


Alas this is often how it works, health professionals (animal or human) can seem just fine until a real big problem comes up, there's just no way to know how things will go until that arises - and we all hope it never will.

I hope you can get some answers out of this lot, I have been following this thread and feel so awful for you in this situation. You have been very strong about it though!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Ianthi said:


> I completely agree. This is what it's all about IMO. They haven't been able to diagnose (for whatever reason) what's wrong with Mac and of course an FeLv/FiV+ would provide an 'easy' answer. It's not the first time I've seen this type of 'fixating' happen in vet medicine-I knew one once where renal failure was the answer to everything! At any rate you have a negative now so hopefully they'll move on.
> 
> Actually, I would just turn up there tonight. I'd also pre-prepare a list of questions and write down all the answers as you're told them! I can certainly think of a few , if you'd like!


Just a hypothetical question that may or may not be relevant as Im more up on canine medical probs then Feline as you know so may help or may not.

From what the OP has managed to get out of them from what I can understand anyway.

They cant find a reason for the anemia.
The Cats on or was on IV fluids and being given steroids and Antibiotics.
The Red blood cell counts stabilised or hasn't dropped further now.
There seems to be a big question if he is FEL/V or FIV, which admittedly not having cats for years I don't know a great deal about.
Because of the yellowing of membranes and skin they assumed not sure it they still do it might be liver related.

Hopefully Ive got that correct, in which case Hypothesis for you as I said don't now much about FEL/V or FIV so may not be relevant but bear with me in case its any use.

With Autoimmune haemolytic anemia, there are several forms. Primary where the body makes antibodies against its own red blood cells. Its quite widely known or this form in dogs and although not so much heard of in cats they can have it.

There is also secondary AIHA where the surface of the Red blood cells get altered from other underlying diseases because of this the body then makes antibodies to the RBC attacking them. I checked what can trigger it in cats and it can apparently be cancer, infections like feline Leukemia, Feline Immuno deficiency virus, Blood parasites like something called mycoplasma haemofelis which from what I can gather is a bacterial parasite, drug reactions, chemicals and toxins and even apparently bee stings.

There is a third sort too Idiopathic and usually Idiopathic is basically just a word for unknown cause anyway.

Once the Red blood cells are destroyed Hemolysis occurs the breakdown and Hemolysis causes excessive bilirubin the excessive amounts of Billurubin in the body then causes the yellowing of skin and gums and other parts of the body.

If it is primary or idiopathic Auto immune haemolytic amemia the the treatment is Immunosupressants usually steroids. If its secondary and the underlying cause is found obviously that needs to be treated. If the underlying cause is Mycoplasma haemofelis the bacterial parasite then antibiotics often work. Apparently too if the underlying cause is viral or cancer then cats don't usually respond to treatment.

So question could it be Primary auto immune haemolytic anemia, idiopathic auto immune haemolytic anemia or caused by a blood parasite like Mycoplasma Haemofilis as he has been on steroids and antibiotics and seems to have stabalised even if the RBC counts haven't actually increased as yet they haven't decreased further either and also there seems to be a big question if he has FELV or the other condition, which if he had would likely stop this sort of theraphy working if it was the underlying cause?

Just a thought in case it might be any help.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Thank you very much sled dog hotel, that was very helpful

i still dont have any definite answers and my cat is still on an iv fluids, antibiotic and steriods and a medication for his liver.
tonight i was told he is still there because his blood is still very yellow, they dont know what is causing the anemia yet and were looking through research books to try to find a cause, they are now saying more tests will be back on thursday, it seems they only asked for a felv test to be done at an outside lab because they were convinced that is what it was, but last night i was told he would be tested for parasites and infections too but they didnt seem to know about that. I dont know if they are more worried about the anemia or the jaundice or both, he did try eating cat litter while i was there so he's still doing that...
he seems so healthy though, he hasnt vomited again since last night, has eaten and has a bright pink nose but his blood count is still very low, they said most cats would be having a hard job to breath with it that low but Mac is fine...an emergency came in while i was there so the vet had to leave us before i got any answers and it was a vet i had never seen before...but i will be back there tomorrow.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

LostSoul said:


> Thank you very much sled dog hotel, that was very helpful
> 
> i still dont have any definite answers and my cat is still on an iv fluids, antibiotic and steriods and a medication for his liver.
> tonight i was told he is still there because his blood is still very yellow, they dont know what is causing the anemia yet and were looking through research books to try to find a cause, they are now saying more tests will be back on thursday, it seems they only asked for a felv test to be done at an outside lab because they were convinced that is what it was, but last night i was told he would be tested for parasites and infections too but they didnt seem to know about that. I dont know if they are more worried about the anemia or the jaundice or both, he did try eating cat litter while i was there so he's still doing that...
> he seems so healthy though, he hasnt vomited again since last night, has eaten and has a bright pink nose but his blood count is still very low, they said most cats would be having a hard job to breath with it that low but Mac is fine...an emergency came in while i was there so the vet had to leave us before i got any answers and it was a vet i had never seen before...but i will be back there tomorrow.


Doing some further checking it seems when the blood cells are attacked they are destroyed either within the blood vessels by something called intravascular hemolysis or destroyed when they circulate through the liver or spleen something called extravascular Hemolysis in both types the haemoglobin is released from the red blood cells the liver then tries to brea down trying to break down the excess levels of haemoglobin so it increases the work of the liver making it have to work a lot harder then normal. The by product of Hemolysis is Billurubin so you get excess Billurubin too that builds up and this in turn can cause all the yellowing. Apparently some of the excess Billurubin is also excreted in the urine so that would be dark too.

Apparently tests for AIHA are or should be.
Complete Blood count, 
Packed cell volume
Cells should also be checked under a microscope for size and shape. With AIHA the number and percent of RBCs will be low plsu the size and shape are abnormal and often with AIHA there is abnormal clumping too.

There are further tests to discover if the Auto immune haemolytic anemia is primary or secondary (the difference I explained in the previous post)
Suggested tests for this seem to be something called a Reticuloctyte tests this is to detect number of immature blood cells that are in the blood stream.
Something also called an antibody test such as a Coombes test and or serologic tests to detect Feline Leukemia, FIV or Parasite diseases such as Mycoplasma Haemofelis.

Other important tests suggested seem to be ones for overall health and to help find other possible causes for secondary AIHA Biochemistry profile, Urinalysis, x rays of the chest and abdomen and even abdominal ultrasound.
Biochemistry evaluates organ function and electrolyte levels Urnalysis also checks Kidney function and urinary tract problems including infection x rays and ultra sound look for problems like internal bleeding and cancers.

Although I would imagine that the latter ones are probably depending on if and what the previous ones find or don't find so wouldn't always been needed if diagnoses is found already by the earlier ones.

Anemia itself isn't a specific disease as such but more a symptom of a cause if that makes sense.

This may or not be relevant but at least it might provide a check list to compare what tests they have actually done.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Thank you so much, that is very helpfull. I wish the vet was as informative as you!!! 

xxx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Mac is home, he is on antibiotics, steroids and destolit and has to go back for more tests on monday,im still debating whether to take him back there or not, hes lost weight since hes been in the vets and is starving, has had a bad tummy which has stuck in his fur but apart from that he seems fine, still looks slightly yellowish to me but they said his pcv had risen to 36 from 12 and his blood serum was a lot less yellow, so they were very happy, still not sure what caused the problem but they are taking about now thinking an infection of some kind or hepatitis, 
i will be collecting his notes tomorrow when the regular vets is open again....they didnt give me a bill today so god knows how much it will cost me but hes worth every penny,

the links are from photos i took when i got him home.

Mac 1.1.2014 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Mac 1.1.2014 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Glad he is home with you 
It does sound like the vet doesn't really know what is wrong 
Thank God you didn't take their advice at the beginning eh? 
Please do keep us updated on his progress x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

moggie14 said:


> Glad he is home with you
> It does sound like the vet doesn't really know what is wrong
> Thank God you didn't take their advice at the beginning eh?
> Please do keep us updated on his progress x


I am so glad hes home...but so paranoid, his nose is still very pale and i keep following him which hes hating 
im so glad i didnt just listen to the vet on saturday, sadly some people would have just agreed.

i'll be keeping everything crossed that his next lot of tests are ok.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

So glad to hear he is home! :thumbup1: What a big relief it must be for you! 

Lovely pics - Mac is a very gorgeous-looking fellow isn't he? :001_wub::001_wub: I'd certainly love to give him a few cuddles, bless him!

Now, hopefully you can get some nourishing food into him, little meals such as steamed white fish which will tempt him to eat and he won't need much 
at a time to be nourishing. 

As there is still a possibility he might have hepatitis it is important to keep his meals LOW in fat until the jaundice has gone.

I expect he will want to sleep a lot, and that is a cat's way of dealing with stress (after as well as during the event). 

Please try not to worry (I know it's not easy) but Mac will sense your anxiety if you do, and that will affect him too. 

If you are planning to have more tests done I would, if it were me, go to a different vet practice. Choose one that you can get a personal recommendation for from someone you know. Or one of the forum members in your area can maybe recommend a good vet if you state your nearest town. 

Good Luck - please keep us updated.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

so as soon as they opened i rang 2 vets in my area and 2 a bit further away all who do their own blood testing all advised me to keep mac under the care of the vet hes at, and all said they would have to start all the tests from scratch (nor at least some of them) and if they got the same results they would keep him on the meds hes on right now....none could see him today anyway....and it turns out 2 of those surgeries use the same out of hours clinic that mac has been in anyway..
so i rang my vet back to make the check up appointment for monday because they couldnt do it yetsreday when i collected him, only to get told what do you mean hes home hes not been discharged on our system...and then they said is he well enough to be home!!
this sent my panic into overdrive...
mac is lively, eating loads, playing and using the litter tray but his nose is paler today than yesterday...i told them that and they told me not to worry, but to keep a check on his gums, now his gums are pale but they always have been and how can i not worry,
then they said they didnt want to discharge him until some more of his results were back...which came back today, now they are not telling me what the results are but said a nurse will talk me through them tomorrow....i think my head will go bang before tomorrow.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

LostSoul said:


> so as soon as they opened i rang 2 vets in my area and 2 a bit further away all who do their own blood testing both advised me to keep mac under the care of the vet hes at, both said they would have to start all the tests from scratch and if they got the same results they would keep him on the meds hes on right now....none could see him today anyway....and it turns out 2 of those surgeries use the same out of hours clinic that mac has been in anyway..
> so i rang my vet back to make the check up appointment for monday because they couldnt do it yetsreday when i collected him, only to get told what do you mean hes home hes not been discharged on our system...and then they said is he well enough to be home!!
> this sent my panic into overdrive...
> mac is lively, eating loads, playing and using the litter tray but his nose is paler today than yesterday...i told them that and they told me not to worry, but to keep a check on his gums, now his gums are pale but they always have been and how can i not worry,
> then they said they didnt want to discharge him until some more of his results were back...which came back today, now they are not telling me what the results are but said a nurse will talk me through them tomorrow....i think my head will go bang before tomorrow.


Its no wonder your heads about to explode!! Its ridiculous you need to know if the bloods are back what they are and if they are still a concern or not.

With dogs and cats any animal for that matter the symptoms of anemia are usually their gums will be very pale and not the normal pink colour, the paler they are and especially if whiteish is a really big concern, so all I can advise is keep a check on his gums if they start to go paler then contact them. If you have a decent camera phone then you can even take photos so you can compare them that may help you decide if they are becoming paler. Animals with anemia also tend to be lethargic too and become depressed and unintested in things, so any change in energy levels or he appears to start to become listless again then be concerned. Red blood cells amongst other things carry oxygen around the body so that's why you see these signs when there is a drop and they get too low. To try to get more oxygen round the body the heart will then try to work harder so you would have an increase in heart rate and breathing rate if there is a problem. Also they tend to go off their food too and don't want to eat, so any signs he doesn't want to eat again be concerned. Sometimes with anemia as well as not eating they will vomit too so that another possible thing to watch out for.

Obviously too as he had yellowing keep a watch that doesn't increase as well.

Hopefully the check list will at least give an indication if he is becoming unwell again or there is a relapse and alert you to it.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Glad he's home & is eating - he is lovely

Still not overly impressed with your vets & don't understand why they can go through results today *sigh*

Wishing him a continued steady recovery


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> but said a nurse will talk me through them tomorrow....


Why a nurse? If there's anything on those results needs 'explained' then it should be the qualified vet who goes through them with you.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

LostSoul said:


> . they said his pcv* had risen to 36 from 12* and his blood serum was a lot less yellow, so they were very happy, still not sure what caused the problem but they are taking about now thinking an infection of some kind or hepatitis,


Now this IS progress and shows he's responding well to treatment. Ideally it should be slightly higher but I'm sure he'll get there. (Been away for New Year and we're just back, so a quick skim of the posts so far). The vets are right, he is well enough to be home so please don't worry unless there's a marked change in demeanour etc and he sounds fine to me and they would have recalled him if the most recent tests signalled something urgent!

At this stage I would just continue with your current vets. There's little point in switching now, since he's on the mend. For one thing blood tests now would have little diagnostic value since whatever was causing the initial crisis (if for instance it is feline infectious anaemia-my own suspicion- then the organism has long since disappeared with the the ABs) is _very_ unlikely to show up in blood tests at this point, the most valuable being those which were taken at the onset when he was first admitted. In addition you'll (hopefully) have the results from the external lab to provide some more guidance for your vets from now on! They can also consult with them as well.

Let us know what they say tomorrow and good luck!


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

well i just got back from seeing the vet, i put my foot down and demanded to see someone...i kinda wish i hadnt now.
Macs temperature has risen quite high ,so ive been told to stop the steriods and increase the antibiotics.
Bloods show a problem with his liver but as of yet they are not sure if its an infection or something more serious, the vet told me that i needed to know that Mac probably wont recover from this, he is supposed to have his pcv done again on monday as long as nothing happens in the mean time.
The vet i saw today, (ive only seen him once before when he put my old cat to sleep) said in his opinion its FIP and that sadly nothing can be done except what we are trying right now...he said the tests all contradict each other so there is no definite yes but it is looking that way ....except for the fact that hes active and eating a lot....and guess what, they'd sent off another felv fiv test which was negative again, i sorted out my bill and got quite a bit knocked off of it...and an appology but that still doesnt make mac better :frown:

Now he told me thet the virus that causes FIP, FCoV is caught by inadvertently swallowing the virus, through
contact with other cats, litter trays or soil where other cats
have toileted. Exposure to faeces in the litter tray is the most
common means of transmission...and that cats dont live long once they have it, Mac has been an indoor only cat since i got him in august 2012, the vet thinks he could have the corona virus all that time and it could have mutated....does that sound right? i do have other cats but they are also indoor only, they only ever go out when they go to the vet...mac was at the vet 3 months ago could he have caught it there? or am i getting paranoid over nothing...

i asked him if macs gums were pink enough because i didnt know what was normal and his nose has gone quite pale...and he said no...to make sure if they get paler i get him straight back.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm so sorry I don't really know what to advise. I don't know much about this, but I am confused as to why they keep on testing 
I guess if your other cats have been exposed to it then they could be at risk, however I believe it doesn't mean they will get poorly.
Such a horrible time for you and your cat :sad: Just wanted to show some support but I'm not much help :blushing:


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

i really dont know what to expect next...they said if mac does have fip then my other cats arent in any danger, that most cats have the virus that causes fip and it does nothing...and my other cats have been checked, they have no temperature and no signs of any illness...apart from my cat cookie has pulled the fur from her belly because shes getting so stressed and pea has a heart murmur that shes had for years but is absolutely fine..
Its so hard being told macs so sick when he doesnt seem sick, ive ever really looked at my cats gums over the years and if macs nose was a darker colour i would never have noticed the colour change...ive lost cats before but they had been sick for a long time...and were all older cats, 14,17 and 19... Mac is so young it just feels so wrong and so cruel...he went through so much when he was little, i thought we had so many years of love ahead of us

i was told today that mac is just a cat and not a baby...hes my baby and this is breaking my heart...


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

As your vets can't give you an absolutely definite answer, could you not ask to be referred to a specialist, they always seem much more switched on to me. When our cat had cancer last year, our vet dithered for eight months doing tests etc and not giving us a definite answer until I asked to be referred to a specialist who told me straight away it was cancer but by then, it was too late to save him. Either that or try another vet.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

i have spoken to a specialist this morning and they explained that even if i got refered to them there really isnt anything they could do except run the tests again and see if they got a different result, they said right now that even though its awful a wait and see approach is best, they agreed it definitely could be FIP but if his tests are as conflicting as my vet has said then it definitely might not be...they said if my vet referred me to them then they would run a lot of tests and if so many of the markers pointed towards fip then thats what they would diagnose but the only real way to diagnose is after death....and the fact that hes eating is a really good sign...but that cats are really good at hiding the fact that they are dying :frown:

right now macs just eaten loads and is giving himself a good wash, i have to leave him alone today for the first time since he came home and im so paranoid....but i have no choice, i guess ive got no other choice but to wait and see...


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I'm so sorry to read about Mac - you must be frantic with worry, both for him a and for your other cats.

Sadly all you can do is wait and see. Are you in a position where you can keep him quarantined from the others? I don't doubt that you've scrubbed and disinfected litter trays and bedding, but other than that I'm not sure what else you can do. Praying for your little one.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

But from your posts, it seems that Mac is eating and seems OK? Aside from the pale nose, are there any other symptoms? Have you taken his temp yourself? Surely a cat with fever would have a poor appetite? It seems the vet has pronounced him dying without a diagnosis and without Mac actually showing any clear signs of illness? It seems a bit weird....


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

koekemakranka said:


> But from your posts, it seems that Mac is eating and seems OK? Aside from the pale nose, are there any other symptoms? Have you taken his temp yourself? Surely a cat with fever would have a poor appetite? It seems the vet has pronounced him dying without a diagnosis and without Mac actually showing any clear signs of illness? It seems a bit weird....


no i havent taken his temperture myself...my husband did suggest it but im a bot scared too incase i hurt him.

the only symptoms that anything is wrong is his paleness and hes sleeping a bit more and not playing as much but he is still playing...we just put the sleeping and less playing down to the cold weather and the fact that he'd just calmed down a bit...
he is eating, in fact hes just eaten a plate of chicken liver which i was advised would be good for him...
all i keep being told is jaundice and anemia must be cause by either fiv, felv or fip and because hes definitely not felv or fiv he must have fip...i admit he does have the symptoms for fip but im not giving up on him yet...im sure there must be other things it can be.


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Sorry to here that Mac isn't well. So has he tested positive for corona virus?


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Cazzer said:


> Sorry to here that Mac isn't well. So has he tested positive for corona virus?


it was inconclusive and tests they said should have shown something didnt and some that shouldnt show anything did, they said a lot of cats will get the corona virus and not get fip and that it is not worth retesting right now, im not sure why maybe because of the medication hes on?
i think they have given up hope to be honest, they keep saying they dont know....i dont think they want to bother to know


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

LostSoul said:


> it was inconclusive and tests they said should have shown something didnt and some that shouldnt show anything did, they said a lot of cats will get the corona virus and not get fip and that it is not worth retesting right now, im not sure why maybe because of the medication hes on?
> i think they have given up hope to be honest, they keep saying they dont know....i dont think they want to bother to know


Hi I have been following your thread and an sorry to read of all the problems you are having.

For Mac to possibly have FIP he should test positive for the corona virus which is the virus FIP mutates from. I would try and clarify if they tested for corona and if so what his titre was (corona virus is measured in levels called titres)

The link below may help a little x

FIP Testing There is No Such Thing Greendale Veterinary Diagnostics Limited


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

wicket said:


> Hi I have been following your thread and an sorry to read of all the problems you are having.
> 
> For Mac to possibly have FIP he should test positive for the corona virus which is the virus FIP mutates from. I would try and clarify if they tested for corona and if so what his titre was (corona virus is measured in levels called titres)
> 
> ...


I have an appointment on monday so i will ask then, thank you....i know if i try to find out over the phone i'll just get a receptionist who will guess at the answers..mind you she'll probably guess better than the vets are !!


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

no news today except to say mac had a really good day yesterday...he ate loads, im pretty much feeding him when he asks for it which probbaly isnt such a good idea but he had about 5 pouches through the day, half at a time...and chicken liver...and he played for about 40 minutes solid last night, he hasnt done that for a while...and...i got woken up to the noise of him chasing his sisters around the bedroom this morning, he has been staying away from them and them from him ...his nose is still pale but his gums are slightly pinker,
hes been wanting to be fed away from the other cats but this morning he was begging for his breakfast in the kitchen with the other 2...i still dont know if i should keep them apart or not but i decided to feed them all together, they've eaten together for the last year and a half..its so hard to know whats right or wrong.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

LostSoul said:


> no news today except to say mac had a really good day yesterday...he ate loads, im pretty much feeding him when he asks for it which probbaly isnt such a good idea but he had about 5 pouches through the day, half at a time...and chicken liver...and he played for about 40 minutes solid last night, he hasnt done that for a while...and...i got woken up to the noise of him chasing his sisters around the bedroom this morning, he has been staying away from them and them from him ...his nose is still pale but his gums are slightly pinker,
> hes been wanting to be fed away from the other cats but this morning he was begging for his breakfast in the kitchen with the other 2...i still dont know if i should keep them apart or not but i decided to feed them all together, they've eaten together for the last year and a half..its so hard to know whats right or wrong.


Ah thats good news,glad Mac is having a good day  as for keeping them together if they have been together for the last 18months I personally cant see what difference separating Mac would make now, apart from possibly distressing him . Keeping everything crossed for your that this is some sort of infection that Mac can beat x


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

LostSoul said:


> .have the symptoms for fip but im not giving up on him yet...im sure there must be other things it can be.


There most certainly are given that over 80% of the cases submitted for testing turn out to be other conditions! I'm not sure what the vets mean by an 'inconclusive' Corona titre-so you need to clarify this with them.

Without seeing the blood test results ie those that increase the clinical suspicions for FIP (and from what you've said these appear to be inconclusive which to my mind makes it ever _more_ unlikely) Mac doesn't sound like a cat with FIP to me! For one thing, apart from his time in the hospital he was never anorexic, was he? In addition I suspect the vets are considering it owing to the persistent high temperature but this had lowered at one point? However, it will be interesting to see how he progresses without the steroids since these are often used in the treatment of FIP ....but I hasten to add other conditions as well!

Dr Addie is the definitive authority on FIP 'diagnosis' and treatment. There's an excellent flowchart (vets use this) which hopefully you'll find useful in discussions with your vets! The non-effusive form....

Dr. Addie - What is FIP ?

Good luck and to Macs continued progress!


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Indeed Ianthi one of my own cats being one of that 80%. I was convinced though it was FIP at the time though

OP glad mac had a good day yesterday. Hopefully another one today x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Cazzer said:


> OP glad mac had a good day yesterday. Hopefully another one today x


so far today has been another good day...he is eating less but to be honest hes eaten so much since hes been home from the vet im not surprised hes eating less...he is definitely still eating though and probbaly stil more than he should just not as much as he did yesterday...and he is alert and active and has spent hours cleaning himself, although he is getting quite annoyed with me keep checking on him, hes always had a problem with food, when i got him he was so under weight and for months he ate each meal like he wouldnt get another...it took so long for him to relalise he could leave food and go back to it and when he came home from the vet he was eating like that again, he has had a good couple of pouches so far today and has nibbled on dry food...and i know he will be eating more later, i just need to try to stop worrying, which i dont think i can do.

i can still see he is jaundice, i was looking at pictures online and was shocked at how yellow the cats were, mac was never really yellow, his nose just had a slight yellow tinge and his skin where they shaved him is the same. (i hope that makes sense) his nose and gums change colour through out the day from very pale to slightly pinker to pale again and back and forth...
its just so hard to tell how he is..i wish they could tell us what was wrong.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LS - very pleased to hear the dear fellow is eating well, and grooming. These are all such good signs, as is the fact he is not yellow. :thumbsup:

I understand you want to know what is wrong, and it must be very frustrating not knowing. So far there has not been any definite diagnosis of FIP, and I take that as encouraging. So for the moment maybe hang on to that positive thought, allow yourself to relax and enjoy him, and try not to think too far ahead?  I know it's hard not to worry, but he will sense your anxiety and it may upset him.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> LS - very pleased to hear the dear fellow is eating well, and grooming. These are all such good signs, as is the fact he is not yellow. :thumbsup:
> 
> I understand you want to know what is wrong, and it must be very frustrating not knowing. So far there has not been any definite diagnosis of FIP, and I take that as encouraging. So for the moment maybe hang on to that positive thought, allow yourself to relax and enjoy him, and try not to think too far ahead?  I know it's hard not to worry, but he will sense your anxiety and it may upset him.


since Mac got sick i have read just about every thing i can find on fiv, felv, fip and anemia but for some reason ive skipped jaundice so i was quite shocked to see pictures of cats with very yellow skin, eyes and gums...macs nose was pale yellow...very pale yellow, if his nose was dark i wouldnt have notice...when the vet pulled his eyes down there was a noticable yellowness (and there still is but im pretty sure its better than it was but that might be wishful thinking) his gums were pale but not yellow and today if i move the fur by his ears there is a very slight yellow tinge to his skin but if i wasnt looking for it i wouldnt notice it....his nose has lost the yellow tinge but still is very pale...so are his gums.

i really am trying not to fuss over him too much, he hates it...especially when i poke him when hes in a deep sleep 

edited to add some photos of mac from this morning 5.1.14.


__
https://flic.kr/p/11772847853


__
https://flic.kr/p/11773362136

i put these photos on my facebook too and i was just contacted by someone who said the dark circles in macs eye show something is seriously wrong, ive just had a good look in his eyes and i honestly cant see those marks, im not sure whats causing them but im pretty sure that it is because the flash was on the camera and the room was quite dark so maybe its where his pupils reacted to the flash....maybe..


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LS - he is such a *gorgeous* boy isn't he? Absolutely love him :001_wub::001_wub:

Maybe your FB contact is referring to the fact Mac appears to have 2 colours in his eyes, i.e. the black pupils and then noticeable green circles around the pupils and a lighter green in the rest of the eye. I have not seen that before (as far as I recall) but it does not necessarily mean there is anything _wrong_ as such.

I must say I don't think it is helpful for someone to tell you "something is wrong" and worry you! In fact it is tactless to say the least! And unless this person can give you chapter-and-verse as to what they _believe _ his eyes could indicate I would ignore them, frankly. You can always ask the vet next time you take Mac to see him.

Re: the yellow skin - jaundice can take quite a while to go, e.g. several weeks. There is an excellent herbal remedy to cleanse the liver called Milk Thistle. It is for humans but can safely be given to cats but you MUST give only *the alcohol free make by Natures Answer* as alcohol is very toxic to cats.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Natures-Ans...d=1388942954&sr=1-25&keywords=nature's+answer

You could ask your vet if this is OK if you are unsure, or better still, ask a holistic vet.

I do hope Mac continues to maintain his progress.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> LS - he is such a *gorgeous* boy isn't he? Absolutely love him :001_wub::001_wub:
> 
> Maybe your FB contact is referring to the fact Mac appears to have 2 colours in his eyes, i.e. the black pupils and then noticeable green circles around the pupils and a lighter green in the rest of the eye. I have not seen that before (as far as I recall) but it does not necessarily mean there is anything _wrong_ as such.
> 
> ...


Thank you i will look into getting some of that milk thistle...anything that might help is worth a try.

yes it was those green circles that were pointed out...but face to face i can not see those in his eyes although looking back at some photos it is on some and not others, his eyes look the same to me as they always do and ive been giving them a good look today. I'm guessing the dark circles are something to do with his pupils reacting to the flash of the camera...it was pointed out that changes in a cats eyes can be a sign of FIP ...i know they were trying to be helpful but it was as helpful as the lady who asked me if i wanted one of her kittens when mac dies and the person who told me their cat had the same thing mac has and they put it to sleep on friday.. :mad2:
i have been staring into his eyes on and off all day and i can see no changes at all...but i do now have scratches 

i will just share one more photo taken a few months ago ( i know im boring everyone!) ...it shows mac (or to give him his full name Mr MacFluffy ) watching tv.
maccy-oct 2013 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

What a fabulous photo LS ! He's so beautiful and yummy looking - I could just hug him! That enormous fluffy tail reminds me of a Maine Coon's tail, but I think you said he is a moggy? (though a very gorgeous moggy of course!). 

If you can't see the darker circles round his pupils in real life then I agree it is most likely to do with the camera flash, and so I would forget about it. 

I think I would swerve FB atm if you are getting those kind of insensitive comments from your so-called friends! How crass can some people be? Honestly:mad2:


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## denflo (Apr 29, 2011)

Wow! He is _very_ handsome! :001_tt1:

I can't really add anything that may help with the problems you are having at the moment, just to say I so hope all works out for you and that Mr Mac makes a full recovery very soon. The fact that he seems so well in himself has to be a good sign; the 'issue' with his eyes, well, if it's only visible in a photograph and the vet hasn't made any comments about it, especially when they were checking his eyes the other day, I wouldn't give it any further worry.

Keeping all fingers and paws crossed for him.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> What a fabulous photo LS ! He's so beautiful and yummy looking - I could just hug him! That enormous fluffy tail reminds me of a Maine Coon's tail, but I think you said he is a moggy? (though a very gorgeous moggy of course!).


Yes hes a moggy...although the vet thinks he may have ragdoll in him somewhere down the line.

He has the vets in the morning and im so nervous....


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Good luck hun, hope you get positive news


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Is it possible you can take him to another vet? Just for a second opinion.I have changed vets in the past because of vague or gung ho diagnoses and never looked backed.


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## CHF (Dec 30, 2013)

Just to say, I hope you have good news soon. He is beautiful cat.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

What a long morning, been at the vets for almost 3 hours.
so...
mac had his pcv tested today it is the same as it was when he was discharged...which i thought was 36 but was in fact 32, the vet said this is within normal range and macs gums were a very healthy pink today, his nose was paler but to me it seemed the colour it normally is...the vet seemed happy that it hadnt dropped and said he was surprised at how healthy mac looks.

They also said the jaundice is almost un-noticable now and definitely a lot better than when he was there on thursday, (it was the same vet) 

He's put on weight, he was 4.5kg before he went in the vets, was 4.2kg when i got him home on new years day, today he is 4.4kg...so again they are very happy

but...his temperature is still a bit high, today it was 39.2 , four days ago it was 39.5 and when he was first admitted it was (i think) 40.2..i cant seem to find where i wrote it down. It had dropped to 38 on the morning of new years day so has risen when they took him off of the fluids.

the vet said that although FIP is still a possibility and that i need to be aware that mac isnt out of the woods yet and it still could be something quite nasty but FIP is looking less likely and its looking more like some kind of infection...according to them they did send off a corona virus test to the lab but the result was inconclusive, something to do with antibodies and a lot of big words i couldnt quite understand....he completely lost me to be honest, i think probbaly on purpose so i would stop asking questions...and he was telling me this while trying to get blood out of macs leg so i probably wasnt concentrating as much as i should have been...

so for now Macs staying on the destolit and antibiotics, they are happy with him being off the steroids...ive got to try to get more fluids in him to help his temp and just carry on as we are....next week they are testing pcv again and liver levels....
so still no definitel answers but definitely a bit more promising!!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

He is an adorable looking cat, totally gorgeous!! Good luck.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Isn't it simply a simple "virus of unknown origin" rather than corona virus? Sometimes cats just get a virus with fever and they go off their food or are lethargic for a few days? Just seems odd that vet is proposing worst case scenario and Mac seems to be doing well other than raised temp.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LS - very pleased to hear things are going well with Mac!  
It must be such a relief for you. Tho I appreciate he is not yet out of the woods, he is doing very well. 

I do think you should ask the vet for print-out copies of all the results of the tests Mac has had done and keep them safely for your records. You are entitled to copies, you have paid for the tests. No reason for them to refuse you.

Also there are people here who could help interpret the results for you, particularly in terms of whether Mac has Corona Virus antibodies.
I have never heard of a test for that being "inconclusive" Either he has the antibodies or he doesn't!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

chillminx said:


> <snip>
> 
> Also there are people here who could help interpret the results for you, particularly in terms of whether Mac has Corona Virus antibodies.
> I have never heard of a test for that being "inconclusive" Either he has the antibodies or he doesn't!


But the interpretation depends on the level of antibodies.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> But the interpretation depends on the level of antibodies.


Yes, I agree. 
But I understood (perhaps incorrectly) the OP's vet has said it is inconclusive as to whether Mac has ANY FeCoV antibodies. If say, he has zero FeCoV antibodies then it follows he can't have FIP.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> Yes, I agree.
> But I understood (perhaps incorrectly) the OP's vet has said it is inconclusive as to whether Mac has ANY FeCV antibodies. If say, he has zero FeCV antibodies then it follows he can't have FIP.


yes this is what i was told...to be honest i dont trust much of what the vet says anymore so whether they actually tested him or not i really dont know...but they said his antibodies were all over the place and things they thought should be showing weren't and some they thought they shouldnt see they were seeing...thats why they were doing so many retests for the fiv and felv...but like i said i honestly dont know...the vet was trying to show me results on the computer today and he couldnt find them, he tried blaming the out of hours vets for not writing things up but its not just one vet at that clinic its all of them, i do have some of macs notes,i collected them the other day but nothing that shows conclusively what tests were done, apart from the fiv, felv and pcv..the vet demanded that the receptionist either finds the results or gets the lab to resend them so IF the test was done i should know about it soon....hopefully


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## Aeschylus (Sep 19, 2013)

Good grief, this is the last thing you need when you're worried about your sick cat. I do hope they manage to sort it all out pronto.


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## Coonycats (Dec 19, 2013)

I'm so sorry to hear all you have been through in the past week or so. I, like others, have huge concerns about your vets, they just seem to be going from one knee jerk diagnosis to another?
I lost my beloved maine coon kitten to FIP in November, but not many of his symptoms match with Macs. If it were that, I would expect the vet to be talking about checking for a fluid thrill in his abdomen.
As somebody has previously said, dr Addie is the expert on FIP and a lot of research has been carried out at Glasgow university. My vet sent Gustav's bloods off to the lab at Glasgow for testing after initial in house blood tests suggested the possibility of FIP. Although there is no definitive test for FIP, the results pointed to FIP, although in his case it was the dry form. He developed neurological side effects and eventually ended up with the wet form and kidney failure so I had him put to sleep.
I hope it's not FIP and something else, but have little faith in your vet actually coming up with a firm diagnosis!
In the meantime, sending you my hugs and support.







The photograph shows my lovely Gustav just a few days before I lost him, you can see how bloated he looks and how eyes don't look right. He was only 8 months old but looked like an old cat.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Coonycats said:


> <snip>
> I lost my beloved maine coon kitten to FIP in November, but not many of his symptoms match with Macs. If it were that, I would expect the vet to be talking about checking for a fluid thrill in his abdomen.
> 
> <snip>


Sorry for your lose.

If Mac had dry FIP he wouldn't have a fluid thrill, nor would he look bloated. AFAIK wet is more common.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But I understood (perhaps incorrectly) the OP's vet has said it is inconclusive as to whether Mac has ANY FeCV antibodies. If say, he has zero FeCV antibodies then it follows he can't have FIP.


It's the other way round that can be 'inconclusive'. Even if he does have a coronavirus titre it doesn't mean he has FIP. Vets sometimes use the evidence of a titre to convince an owner that it is FIP when, as has been pointed out, over 80% of cats tested and +ve for FCoV do not have FIP at all.

The real percentage of FCoV +ve cats which never get FIP is far greater. In the main cats are only ever tested if they are ill as healthy FCoV +ve cats which don't get taken to the vets don't get tested.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If Mac had dry FIP he wouldn't have a fluid thrill, nor would he look bloated. AFAIK wet is more common


I'd have said dry was more common in adults, the wet form in kittens. Purely anecdotal but it's what I've noticed. The wet form progresses very quickly.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

havoc said:


> It's the other way round that can be 'inconclusive'. Even if he does have a coronavirus titre it doesn't mean he has FIP. Vets sometimes use the evidence of a titre to convince an owner that it is FIP when, as has been pointed out, over 80% of cats tested and +ve for FCoV do not have FIP at all.
> 
> The real percentage of FCoV +ve cats which never get FIP is far greater. In the main cats are only ever tested if they are ill as healthy FCoV +ve cats which don't get taken to the vets don't get tested.


Wen FIP was first mentioned i was told that a lot of cats carry what causes it but never get FIP and they did try to explain why the test was inconclusive today but all i heard was a lot of long words and antibodies all over the place so it wasnt as easy to get a result as it should have been...and poor mac whinning because the vet couldnt get the needle in his leg to take some blood...it took him 4 tries before he got some and i was getting quite upset.

im still no closer to finding out what caused the anemia and jaundice but they said they havent found any lumps or swelling,he doesnt seem to be in any sort of painm his heart sounds really good and his chest is clear...the first vet i saw told me he was skinny but at 4.4kg hes definitely not skinny, we know he tested negative for parasites, fiv and felv and that his liver levels were slightly off but not too abnormal..and that at the time of admission his pcv was 12...today its 32...and that today his temp is 39.2, when he was admitted it was 40.5,
the vet said if he didnt know macs history he wouldnt have thought he was seeing a sick cat today but that doesnt mean hes still not sick.
thats all i know for sure, which really isnt enough.

i know hes not out of the woods yet and even if he gets better this could happen again... i cant stop something from happening if i dont know whats causing it...

sorry for repeating myself :blush:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> sorry for repeating myself


Don't apologise. It can clarify things just writing them down sometimes. Whatever is wrong you can at least take some comfort in the fact that the vets advised you have your boy pts when you first took him in and he's still with you. Lucky cat to have an owner who insisted on questioning the 'experts'. Whatever the long term outcome, you know you have the support of members here.


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## Coonycats (Dec 19, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> Sorry for your lose.
> 
> If Mac had dry FIP he wouldn't have a fluid thrill, nor would he look bloated. AFAIK wet is more common.


I agree with you, I only suggested checking for a fluid thrill if FIP was mentioned, because at that stage I'm guessing they wouldn't know if it were the dry or wet form, and I also thought the wet form was more common. 
I just hope it isn't that, but the latest information suggests not which is good.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Coonycats said:


> I agree with you, I only suggested checking for a fluid thrill if FIP was mentioned, because at that stage I'm guessing they wouldn't know if it were the dry or wet form, and I also thought the wet form was more common.
> I just hope it isn't that, but the latest information suggests not which is good.


im grateful for all suggestions...i didnt know mac was sick to start with so knowing what to look out for and what to ask about is a great help.

We still dont know for sure that its not FIP but the signs are looking better than they were.


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

LS Every day that goes by that Mac is a bit better is good news. 

Coonycat sorry to hear about your gorgeous Gustav x


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

havoc said:


> > It's the other way round that can be 'inconclusive'. Even if he does have a coronavirus titre it doesn't mean he has FIP.
> 
> 
> Yes, I understand that, and I know a +FCov titre does not in itself
> ...


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

THis is a long shot, but the jaundice/anaemia and fever out of the blue sounds (to my uneducated mind) like a sort of tick fever/biliary (which I know you probably don't get in the UK). Has Mac been tested for haemobartonella infection, which is a similar sort of parasitic infection from flea bites or other cats?


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

koekemakranka said:


> THis is a long shot, but the jaundice/anaemia and fever out of the blue sounds (to my uneducated mind) like a sort of tick fever/biliary (which I know you probably don't get in the UK). Has Mac been tested for haemobartonella infection, which is a similar sort of parasitic infection from flea bites or other cats?


yes, that is one test i do know he had...the out of hours vet did that on the 2nd day he was at the vets, she told me everything was normal but she also said she wasnt too sure what she was looking at and would get it checked by someone else.....but its one of the results that hasnt been written up on the computer ,so im saying it was fine but i guess i dont know for sure.
she did ask me if mac had ever had ticks and he hadnt in all the time i had him but before he came to me he very well could have, when i got him he was completely covered in fleas, 
i dont know if he could have been harbouring that for over a year though.


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## CHF (Dec 30, 2013)

I can't help thinking those vets have a slipshod way of doing things, I bet their accounts department are on the ball.

I am so glad Mac is continuing to improve.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Are swollen lymph nodes normal with an infection and temperature...i can feel them in macs neck, i phoned the vet, spoke to a completely new vet i'd never spoken to before who said they were aware of the swollen lymph nodes and this is what made them think of FIV,FELV and FIP in the first place..but not to worry and carry on with his anti biotics...well telling me not to worry isnt going to help, im a natural born worrier!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LostSoul said:


> Are swollen lymph nodes normal with an infection and temperature...i can feel them in macs neck, i phoned the vet, spoke to a completely new vet i'd never spoken to before who said they were aware of the swollen lymph nodes and this is what made them think of FIV,FELV and FIP in the first place..but not to worry and carry on with his anti biotics...well telling me not to worry isnt going to help, im a natural born worrier!


Yes, swollen lymph nodes are common with an infection and a raised temp is common with an infection. The antibiotics (if they are the right ones) should be doing their good work at killing the infection. Which antibiotic is Mac on?


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> Yes, swollen lymph nodes are common with an infection and a raised temp is common with an infection. The antibiotics (if they are the right ones) should be doing their good work at killing the infection. Which antibiotic is Mac on?


thank you, i thought i would check here seeing as i dont believe a word my vet says anymore...

Macs on ronaxan 20mg, 2 tablets once a day


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Ronaxan contains the antibiotic doxycycline, which is often prescribed for respiratory infections (in cats and dogs as well as humans). It is more fat soluble than other antibiotics and penetrates tissues well, which may be why the vet is using it for Mac's condition. 

Bear in mind that if the Ronaxan doesn't work after a fair course (say 2 weeks) he may need a different antibiotic.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

thank you...we have an appointment next wednesday and have enough pills until then, so if theres no change i will ask for them to change his antibiotics, im not sure when they started giving him them in the vets but he was on one a day for at least 2 days before i brought him home, when i brought him home on new years day they told me to double them...i was thinking that they should be helping him more by now but i guess i really dont know whats happening inside him, and i know im really paranoid :blush:


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

LostSoul said:


> yes, that is one test i do know he had...the out of hours vet did that on the 2nd day he was at the vets, she told me everything was normal but she also said she wasnt too sure what she was looking at and would get it checked by someone else.......


You see this is the one I've been suspicious of all along (aka feline infectious anaemia/mycoplasma) and although it doesn't always appear in the blood as it's presence is dependent on the stage of infection, the fact that what sounds like an unskilled operator looking at the slides made a firm diagnosis all the more difficult-for all you know at this point it may well have been positive! They really should have sent a sample away. Interestingly it is also susceptible to doxycycline so its a fair bet this is what they were treating for all along even on a presumptive basis and judging by Mac's fairly rapid response there's every chance it was in fact this!

I know we had another poster here once whose cat was initially diagnosed with immune-mediated anaemia which later turned out to be this form! It's more common than once believed.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Ianthi said:


> You see this is the one I've been suspicious of all along (aka feline infectious anaemia/mycoplasma) and although it doesn't always appear in the blood as it's presence is dependent on the stage of infection, the fact that what sounds like an unskilled operator looking at the slides made a firm diagnosis all the more difficult-for all you know at this point it may well have been positive! They really should have sent a sample away. Interestingly it is also susceptible to doxycycline so its a fair bet this is what they were treating for all along even on a presumptive basis and judging by Mac's fairly rapid response there's every chance it was in fact this!
> 
> I know we had another poster here once whose cat was initially diagnosed with immune-mediated anaemia which later turned out to be this form! It's more common than once believed.


When the vet was checking the blood slide she rang me and asked if i'd treated mac for ticks or if he'd been out of the country and she said she was trying to make sense of what she was seeing and when i asked what was she seeing she said not a lot....that would have been on sunday 28th dec, we spoke again the next day about the possibility of him ever having ticks and she said because i couldnt say i was 100% sure he hadnt ever had any then it might be a parasite and she would do another blood slide and get it tested properly, when they discharged him i asked about test results and was told everything was fine except for his liver levels were slightly off so i just asumed this included the parasite test...none of the tests the out of hours vets did or sent away have been written up, i have paper copies of some of the results but ive just looked and that test isnt on there... 
i feel so stupid for not checking and double checking on everything...

now macs glands in his neck are quite large, i havent felt them like that before but his head does have to be in a certain position for me to feel them and hes been running around and literally climbing up the walls today, eating really well and chasing my other cats...i havent seen him drink though, hes not a big drinker anyway but should i be trying to get more water into him to help his temperature...and although the vet told me not to worry about his glands being swollen i really am....im seriously thinking about taking him back to the out of hours vet and getting him checked, they seem very larg to me.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

just wanted to add that i rang the out of hours vet but they said it was normal for his lymph nodes to be swollen if hes fighting an infection...but it could be a symptom of something new seeing as we dont know IF he has an infection or not :mad2:
but they said they didnt need to see him unless he has trouble breathing or swollowing...hes eating right now and having no trouble with that....so i guess i was panicking again....they did make me feel quite stupid.

But they also could access his records and told me that as far as they can see the blood smear was done twice but both times was done and checked by the same vet, one of their out of hours vets...now they said shes not a specialist but would know roughly what to look for...so it wasnt done properly at all.
They couldnt tell me if another test would be reliable seeing as mac is now on medication... 

sorry i didnt relalise i could still edit my post above...i should have added this there


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

LostSoul said:


> now they said shes not a specialist but would know roughly what to look for


Gosh no wonder you have lost faith in your vet with comments like this 
Pleased to hear your cat is feeling better though. I guess they are like us, when we have a nasty cold or flu our glands go right up and can be sore. Hopefully this is a good sign that he is actively fighting off the infection and they should go down in a couple of days x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

moggie14 said:


> Gosh no wonder you have lost faith in your vet with comments like this
> Pleased to hear your cat is feeling better though. I guess they are like us, when we have a nasty cold or flu our glands go right up and can be sore. Hopefully this is a good sign that he is actively fighting off the infection and they should go down in a couple of days x


i really hope thats whats causing the swollen glands and its not something else they havent tested him for...they are still quite large but he doesnt seem too bothered about them...apart from when he did a sneak attack on one of my other cats last night and she pinned him down by his throat...i did try to stop it before it happended but they were too quick for me.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

LostSoul said:


> i really hope thats whats causing the swollen glands and its not something else they havent tested him for...they are still quite large but he doesnt seem too bothered about them...apart from when he did a sneak attack on one of my other cats last night and she pinned him down by his throat...i did try to stop it before it happended but they were too quick for me.


Would have thought he's not too keen on being pinned down by the throat regardless of the state of his glands! If he's staging sneak attacks he's not feeling very unwell.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

How's puss feeling now? Is he still eating and drinking?

Can't believe they pinned him down by the throat in that way. Poor babe seems to be going through quite a lot at the moment.

Reading through this entire thread has made me feel really angry and upset for you. Your vets sound just awful. Where is the empathy and sympathy? Some of the things you have said is just not right. I've never had a problem with my vets but I've read a lot of stories of people's experience with vets and I didn't know they could be bad in some cases.

I don't know why but I just have this feeling that they don't know what is wrong with your puss and is milking you for money and taking their time in finding out, whilst he is suffering. It doesn't sound like they're putting enough effort into helping either. I know you said they're understaffed but it is still terrible. 

I just don't understand how they could say such a thing in advising him to pts without any real reason behind it apart from suspecting he won't last long, and suspecting at that. Pretty much making you say goodbye without telling you anything is sickening. I'v also heard members on here say their vets advised their cats to be pts but they decided to continue helping and they're now fit as a fiddle so I don't think you should listen to anything like that yet. You said everything has come back negative but they still believe it's FeLV (Or did you say FIP is what they believe it is?) Is it quite common for tests to come back negative a lot and a feline in question could have it?

Sorry I have no understanding on FeLV (I've read a bit on it) and nothing on FIP and the rest tbh but just from what you've said it doesn't seem they are telling you everything and enough information which is unethical and must be making you feel worse.

What else have they tested? Was it FIP too? Sorry can't remember everything from this thread. Which one did they test for quite a few times and still suspect it is that? I am glad to know that they are looking into a lot of things and trying to rule out everything. Just the lack of info you are having is awful.

Can you go to another vet? I think you should write everything down you want to know about and keep notes on how he is doing so when he has his frequent visits you can update on everything and can then hopefully be kept in the loop with everything if you ask the questions you want to know.

I hope everything turns out okay. I really do.x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Blackcats said:


> How's puss feeling now? Is he still eating and drinking?
> 
> Can't believe they pinned him down by the throat in that way. Poor babe seems to be going through quite a lot at the moment.
> 
> ...


Yes Mac is still eating, hes playing,in fact hes very active and alert and hes acting completely normal....except that his glands in his neck are still very swollen and at his last vet check he had atemperature.

ive been with the same vet for years and they've been wonderful until now, ive lost my trust for them and will be finding a new regular vet soon, i have spoken to other vets since mac got sick but most of them advised me to stay where i am and carry on with the medication until hes finished the course of tablets...and i will most probably have to go through all the tests again if i change vet which will be expensive but once he gets over this i wont take him back to that vets again.

The vets say that they dont know whats wrong for sure with mac but i dont know if they are telling the truth, right now apart from antibiotcs and liver meds they arent doing anything, i do understand that he had the symptoms for fiv and felv and that is why they first thought he had one of those but im pretty sure the FIP diagnosis was just made to stop me asking for more tests.
He was tested for FIV 3 times and FELV 6 times...all were negative but there is no test for FIP, but there are tests which would point you in the direction of fip...as of right now im still not sure if those have been done or not...so im guessing they havent.

everything ive been told i have written down, so i know most of what ive been told but that isnt much...im just hoping hes getting better, the last conversation i had with the vet was about macs swollen lymph nodes and he said it could be a sign of infection or something a lot more serious and FIP hasnt been ruled out yet, i just have to wait and see...but i cant see any jaundice any more and his gums are lovely and pink even when his nose is very pale and his last pcv test was within normal range so those are all possitive signs...i just find it hard not knowing whats wrong and what caused it, if i knew what caused it i might be able to stop it happening again.

It's been brought to my attention that macs problem could be cancer,especially as now his lymph nodes are swollen...i just dont know what to think any more....he seems so healthy now its hard not to get my hopes up that he will be ok but on the other hand i still dontknow whats wrong with him.

thank you for the kind words blackcats xxx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

i just thought i would do a quick update...although there is not much to tell.
Mac has been acting fine but his lymph nodes really swelled up, the vet told me not to worry and to carry on with the antibiotics...saw a different vet today who said that im kidding myself if i think hes fine, thats hes very sick and she thinks its cancer :frown5:
so mac had a lymph biopsy done.
i did ask about hemobartonellosis..and was told it is a definite posability but that the vet still thought it was cancer ...i was really praying for good news he's been acting just fine and his red cell count is still perfectly normal..they said the results of the biopsy can take 2 weeks to come back so i guess i wont be sleeping for 2 weeks then...


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## Polly G (Apr 30, 2013)

Oh I really feel for you - I lost my beautiful boy to a stomach tumour just 10 days ago and I am totally devastated. I am keeping everything crossed that you get good news soon x


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

We've been down this road with our cat last year. You should really ask to be referred to a specialist who, believe me, won't dither like your vet is doing. We went back and forth for eight months until in the end I asked to be referred to a specialist and we only got accurate answers then but, sadly, it was too late for us. I changed vets after that.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LS - I am so sorry to hear of this latest worry about Mac. I do hope the test results come back as normal. 

So difficult for you, with no definite diagnosis, and not having an exact idea what you might be dealing with. I really sympathise. 

Thinking positive thoughts for you and Mac, waiting hopefully for an update.


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## denflo (Apr 29, 2011)

Sorry to hear that there is another thing that has now been thrown into the mix, cancer is a very frightening word to hear, please ask about a referral to a specialist, although I suspect the answer will be to wait until the test results come back. Two weeks is a long time to have to wait, when Dennis was diagnosed with lymphoma, the specialist to whom he was referred had the results back the same day. 

The only thing you can take comfort in at the moment is the fact that Mac appears to be so well, at least he is not in pain or discomfort that you can see, if he is eating and playing fine, then you can be grateful that he is not in distress and this will stand him in good stead for any necessary treatment. 

I hope that you get some answers soon, in the meantime, lots of positive thoughts coming your way, hopefully he remains well for the foreseeable future.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

ive spoken to the local specialist vets and they said they would happily see mac but that the referal would cost a lot of money...i'd find it somehow but that seeing as the biopsy has already been done it would be better to wait, i asked if 2 weeks a long time to wait and they said roughly 7 to 10 days was the norm for the type of biopsy Mac would be having done, they did also say that it would be unusual for a young cat without felv to have lymphoma that usually its older cats who get it...but its not impossible..and he definitely is felv negative.
my regular vet hasnt found any lumps or growths anywhere, i know they need to do an ultrasound or xray to make sure but when my old cat had cancer they found her lump in her liver straight away...but she did have other symptoms before the tumour was found.
I dont know what to think, the medication is what they give to treat hemobart and he is responding to it but his lymph nodes are so swollen...i always knew cancer was a possibility but it worse to hear its a possibility from the vet


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh gosh, so sorry to hear this. So now it's suspected cancer 
Poor baby, glad to hear he seems to be doing just fine and fingers crossed for a good result. I really thought that swollen glands is a sign of fighting some sort of infection


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

FiV, FeLv, FIP and now _cancer_? One vet says _not_ to worry and another says he's very ill? Doesn't inspire much confidence, does it?

Something else tells me chances are that biopsy will be 'inconclusive', I'm afraid or maybe I've just lost complete faith in their speculative diagnoses at this point!

Having said all that IF it is lymphoma (which I personally doubt in an otherwise symptom-free young cat for one thing) it's one of the more treatable feline cancers.

Incidentally, how is Mac's temperature these days?


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

the vet i saw today was the worst ever, the appointment was made with the vet i have seen before who i wasn't amazed with but he wasnt terrible, when i got there i was told he was off sick so i would be seeing a different vet,i didnt know who until i was called in....i have seen her once before, i took mac there about 6 months ago for itchy ears and bad breath and she told me he probably had cat flu and i complained and walked out....i know, i know, i should have found a new vet after that but i was told i wouldnt have to see her again...and to be honest it was my first bad experience id ever had there..and i was naive, i stupidly didnt think my cats would get sick.
Now today she seemed to think because they have ruled out a lot but not cancer that its probably cancer and that the swollen lymph nodes are a definite sign, i found a lump on his chest this morning near his front leg,it is flat and round and i can sort of move it, it doesnt feel like the ones in his neck its more squidgy, 
she said that was a lymph node too, she also said his thyroid seems swollen, she took biopsies of all the lymph nodes she could feel i believe.
ive been reading up on hemobartonellosis and feline infectious anemia and all the symptoms fit Mac and he is responding to the treatment...well he seems to be responding to me but i cant see whats going on inside him
Last week the vet was very happy with his jaundice and said he could hardly see it, it is definitely no worse ( i check every day) but she said he was very yellow today ( i honestly can only see a very very slight pale yellowing when i pull his eyes down ) she also said he was very pale but his red cell count was still around 31/32 so not low...he didnt look pale to me either.
They took him away from me to do the biopsies and pcv and i asked for all the results to be printed out, i had a quick glance when i got them but when i got home and went through it properly the temp was labelled at 39.2 which was the same as last time...and then i noticed the date was last week too, i had to phone the vets because when i got mac out of his basket he has a huge bandage on his leg and i wanted to know why he had it ( i sound awful for not noticing before we got home but it was tucked underneath him) and i asked them to check his temperature, they said it wasnt done because mac was wriggling...he felt hot to me last week, he doesnt this week, his ears are nice and cool but i know thats not a proper way to tell, 

i have spoken to a new vet clinic tonight, they advised me to stick with the ronaxan because if it is hemobart thats what they would try first and get the biopsy results seeing as they have already been done and then go to them unless something happens before i get the results and then they will see him straight away...

edited to add the vet did tell me today that the biopsy results arent always accurate...she told me that after i'd let her do them!!
and she sold me flea treatment because as she said if its hemobart its important to keep him flea'd...he is upto date with his treatment but is due again soon.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

OMG I feel so angry for you LS - angry and sad at the same time :
Instead of just speculating and wondering (which it appears they are doing based on a whole load of inconclusive or negative test results) why the hell don't they say "I'm so sorry but we really do not know what is wrong but will continue to try and find an accurate diagnosis" instead of messing you around so much :
I truly hope they can find what is wrong and help you and your poor little guy.
Please keep us posted xx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

i'm starting to think Mac knows when the vets is closed...he's been scratching his ears a lot lately, (he goes through stages of this and has done ever since ive had him, hes been to the vets about it a couple of times before and they could never see anything wrong...mind you thats not very comforting seeing what i know about my vets now) anyway...this morning hes been scratching again and ive noticed 2 sores one on either side inbetween his ear and eye but closer to the front of his his ears.
His flea treatment is upto date, in fact i did it just a few days ago...the vet told me if there was any change i should take him straight back but they are all closed now so it will be an out of hours appointment again and i dont want to drag him there if this is something he has done to himself...but dont want to ignore it if its something to do with the medication hes on. (ronaxan and destolit) or if its a new symptom of what ever illness he has
apart from the sores and itching hes fine, playing and eating ect


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Sorry to hear this LS - poor Mac It sounds as though he has been scratching a lot and has broken the skin. Do you have the patient information leaflet with both the drugs to see if itching is mentioned as a side effect? If not maybe google for side effects of the two drugs. 

Itching and a rash can be a side effect of antibiotics for humans, and usually a sign of an allergy. The antibiotic tends to be discontinued if this happens and an alternative given. I think if it were me I would want to take advice from a vet as to whether this could be an allergic reaction to one of the drugs he's on.

Itchy ears generally (in cats) seems to be linked to allergies, especially skin allergies. My cat with miliary dermatitis used to suffer from very itchy ears until I got his diet sorted out and found which foods he is allergic to. One of my 8 mth old kittens also has itchy ears - vet has examined them with the otoscope and pronounced them 'clean as a whistle', so I am thinking this could be food-related too (as it is definitely not fleas, or ear mites).


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> Sorry to hear this LS - poor Mac It sounds as though he has been scratching a lot and has broken the skin. Do you have the patient information leaflet with both the drugs to see if itching is mentioned as a side effect? If not maybe google for side effects of the two drugs.
> 
> Itching and a rash can be a side effect of antibiotics for humans, and usually a sign of an allergy. The antibiotic tends to be discontinued if this happens and an alternative given. I think if it were me I would want to take advice from a vet as to whether this could be an allergic reaction to one of the drugs he's on.
> 
> Itchy ears generally (in cats) seems to be linked to allergies, especially skin allergies. My cat with miliary dermatitis used to suffer from very itchy ears until I got his diet sorted out and found which foods he is allergic to. One of my 8 mth old kittens also has itchy ears - vet has examined them with the otoscope and pronounced them 'clean as a whistle', so I am thinking this could be food-related too (as it is definitely not fleas, or ear mites).


I dont have the leaflet and i did a quick search online but couldn't find much so i phoned the vet...i have them on speed dial now :blush:
the person i spoke to said they very much doubt it was an allergy to the medication seeing as mac has now been on them for over 3 weeks and that the ronaxan is quite good because its basically side effect free 
but that it could be that with his immune system messed up by whatever his illness is that his skin is more sensitive than usual so its getting sore where usually it wouldnt effect him....or the sores could be a sign of an immune type disease.
because ive checked him all over and there are only the sores by his ears they didnt think i needed to take him there, they told me to keep them clean and to ring on monday if im still worried or if mac is still scratching his ears..and to ring straight back if he gets more sores...and to cut his claws!

i dont know what causes mac to scratch his ears, when i first got him he was covered in fleas and shaking his head quite badly, it turned out he had fleas, dead fleas and a few months worth of dirt stuck inside his ears, he's been on the same food since he came off kitten food ( so over a year now) and every now and again he'll get these itching attacks every time the vets say they cant see anything so maybe it is food related, i never thought of that.

Mac being so sick has made me realise how selfish a lot of people are, friends and family who i thought understood me, ive had them tell me he's just a cat and i need to stop wasting my money on him and get on with my life and ask how i can be so obsessed with a cat, (im obsessed with ALL cats!! ) and that i need to learn when to give up...i will give up when ive tried everything i can and not before.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

chillminx said:


> .
> Itchy ears generally (in cats) seems to be linked to allergies, especially skin allergies. My cat with miliary dermatitis used to suffer from very itchy ears until I got his diet sorted out and found which foods he is allergic to. One of my 8 mth old kittens also has itchy ears - vet has examined them with the otoscope and pronounced them 'clean as a whistle', so I am thinking this could be food-related too (as it is definitely not fleas, or ear mites).


This, particularly if the ears are hot! Sorry to hear about this latest problem. I'd definitely change the food and see how he responds.

PS, Just ignore the comments from those friends and relatives. It's basically none of their business!!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Sorry to hear you're not getting sympathy or support from certain family members and friends. Some insensitive people seem to feel it is their right or duty to make blunt, outspoken comments, whether solicited or not.  

My advice would be to tell the unsympathetic people nothing about Mac's situation, and if they make any comment don't even acknowledge it, but pointedly change the subject. Even the most thick-skinned person usually gets the message. If they don't, then you may need to say calmly but firmly "I don't wish to discuss it, thank you". There is absolutely no point in trying to reason with such people - you are wasting your time and energy. 

I understand completely why you want to do your utmost to help Mac. Why wouldn't you, when you love him and he is a dear companion who has given you his loyalty and trust, as well as bringing you comfort and delight. 

In any case it would be different if Mac was very ill and had no quality of life
but this is not so. And of course you still have no definite diagnosis, so it would be highly premature to write him off anyway.

Stay strong LS - we are here for you if you need us.


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## CHF (Dec 30, 2013)

He's not just a cat, he is your companion and friend - a family member. If others don't understand, that's their loss.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

LostSoul said:


> Mac being so sick has made me realise how selfish a lot of people are, friends and family who i thought understood me, ive had them tell me he's just a cat and i need to stop wasting my money on him and get on with my life and ask how i can be so obsessed with a cat, (im obsessed with ALL cats!! ) and that i need to learn when to give up...i will give up when ive tried everything i can and not before.


I can't help on the issue of Mac's ears, I'm sorry. I do hope you can get to the bottom of it and resolve it for him as soon as possible.

But I had to say something to this. Chillminx's advice is so much better than what I am about to say so please just smile and ignore me ... I'd be so tempted to wait until they mention an elderly relative or child or dog and then say "Oh well it's just a ... why are you so obsessed with them anyway?"

Sadly it's when you're already down you find out who's going to kick you, who will walk on by, who's going to be so thick as to say "Are you all right??" and who is going to sit with you until you are strong enough to get up, then help you up and carry on down the street with you.


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Sorry to hear mac has added another dimension to his problems. It does sound like a food intolerance. My Kyrre occasionally gets red ears (he's pale grey/white) so very noticeable, we've not really managed to suss what food causes the problem. Once his poor face was lobster red though and his eyes were closing. A steroid jab and he was fine within minutes. 

Sorry to hear that you aren't getting much support from family & friends


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I dont have the leaflet and i did a quick search online but couldn't find much so i phoned the vet


For future reference the datasheets for all veterinary drugs can be found here
NOAH Compendium of Animal Medicines: Datasheets - A


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LS - what are you feeding Mac at present?


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

So sorry to hear you are not getting the support from F&F. However, that is what we are here for! 
Please stay in the forum and keep us updated, we are all here to offer help, advice and support x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Ianthi said:


> This, particularly if the ears are hot! Sorry to hear about this latest problem. I'd definitely change the food and see how he responds.
> 
> PS, Just ignore the comments from those friends and relatives. It's basically none of their business!!





chillminx said:


> Sorry to hear you're not getting sympathy or support from certain family members and friends. Some insensitive people seem to feel it is their right or duty to make blunt, outspoken comments, whether solicited or not.
> 
> My advice would be to tell the unsympathetic people nothing about Mac's situation, and if they make any comment don't even acknowledge it, but pointedly change the subject. Even the most thick-skinned person usually gets the message. If they don't, then you may need to say calmly but firmly "I don't wish to discuss it, thank you". There is absolutely no point in trying to reason with such people - you are wasting your time and energy.
> 
> ...





CHF said:


> He's not just a cat, he is your companion and friend - a family member. If others don't understand, that's their loss.





ForeverHome said:


> I can't help on the issue of Mac's ears, I'm sorry. I do hope you can get to the bottom of it and resolve it for him as soon as possible.
> 
> But I had to say something to this. Chillminx's advice is so much better than what I am about to say so please just smile and ignore me ... I'd be so tempted to wait until they mention an elderly relative or child or dog and then say "Oh well it's just a ... why are you so obsessed with them anyway?"
> 
> Sadly it's when you're already down you find out who's going to kick you, who will walk on by, who's going to be so thick as to say "Are you all right??" and who is going to sit with you until you are strong enough to get up, then help you up and carry on down the street with you.





Cazzer said:


> Sorry to hear mac has added another dimension to his problems. It does sound like a food intolerance. My Kyrre occasionally gets red ears (he's pale grey/white) so very noticeable, we've not really managed to suss what food causes the problem. Once his poor face was lobster red though and his eyes were closing. A steroid jab and he was fine within minutes.
> 
> Sorry to hear that you aren't getting much support from family & friends





havoc said:


> For future reference the datasheets for all veterinary drugs can be found here
> NOAH Compendium of Animal Medicines: Datasheets - A


I just wanted to say thank you to you all, it means a lot to me that other people care...thank you

and thank you for the datasheet, it's very helpfull

xxx


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## sharonchilds (Jul 7, 2011)

How are you holding up? Ive been thinking of you . x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> LS - what are you feeding Mac at present?


Mac's on felix pouches which i know isn't great food but ive tried so many foods for my cats and they wont touch it, i know mac gets a bad tummy if any food has rabbit in it so i avoid that, i've tried raw that was a no go, tried it with the 3 cats i had before the 3 i have now and they wouldnt touch it and i tried it again when i got the cats i have now, both when they were young and again later, they wont touch any food in gravey or any kind of pate food, Mac likes cooked chicken so he has that a few times a week my other 2 wont touch it, they have very little dry food but right now they've been nibbling on wainwrights anti allergy recipe which my 2 girls love but mac isnt so keen but like i said they dont get dry often anyway so its all he gets. I've tried the wainwrights pouches too but none of them will touch it....but i do know that felix is like junk food i just dont know what else to feed them, my oldest cat Pea has only eaten felix pouches and strictly nothing else for almost 10 years, she wont even touch the tins...and trust me i have tried everything....they seem to get suspicious of new food, i give them food they all run for it then one backs away (always Pea) and then the other 2 do...im sure they think im trying to poison them! 



moggie14 said:


> So sorry to hear you are not getting the support from F&F. However, that is what we are here for!
> Please stay in the forum and keep us updated, we are all here to offer help, advice and support x


Thank you xxx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

me again 

i took mac for a check up on his face today because he's scratched it and made it bleed again...i actually saw a really nice vet,
once again the vet checked his ears but couldnt see anything, she checked him all over and found no other scabs at all so she said its either a food allergy or its to do with his immune system being a bit messed up and his skin is just a lot more sensitive than usual, also it could be linked to his medication but they want him to stay on that for now. So hes wearing a cone of shame for the time being, she explained that usually they would treat his skin with steroids but that because they dont know exactly what is wrong and that he has improved so much without steroids she really didnt want to start him on them now, that they can effect the immune system and they need his to keep fighting whatever it is fighting.

Now for some good news, his biopsy showed no cancer cells, :biggrin: it just showed that he has active lymph nodes, so it looks like it is an infection of some sort afterall.
His temperature is 38.5 and his weight is stable at 4.4kg
she thinks its most probably is hemobartonella but that it can take 6-8 weeks for the treatment to work properly, if after that time his lymph nodes are no better then they will xray and see whats going on inside, incase there is cancer somewhere else...im not sure whether it should be done before that or not  but she also added that there is nothing noticable, nothing feels swollen and she couldnt find any lumps apart from those in his neck..

so im still not really closer to knowing what it is but im one step closer to knowing what its not...i think


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

LostSoul said:


> Mac's on felix pouches which i know isn't great food but ive tried so many foods for my cats and they wont touch it, i know mac gets a bad tummy if any food has rabbit in it so i avoid that, i've tried raw that was a no go, tried it with the 3 cats i had before the 3 i have now and they wouldnt touch it and i tried it again when i got the cats i have now, both when they were young and again later, they wont touch any food in gravey or any kind of pate food, Mac likes cooked chicken so he has that a few times a week my other 2 wont touch it, they have very little dry food but right now they've been nibbling on wainwrights anti allergy recipe which my 2 girls love but mac isnt so keen but like i said they dont get dry often anyway so its all he gets. I've tried the wainwrights pouches too but none of them will touch it....but i do know that felix is like junk food i just dont know what else to feed them, my oldest cat Pea has only eaten felix pouches and strictly nothing else for almost 10 years, she wont even touch the tins...and trust me i have tried everything....they seem to get suspicious of new food, i give them food they all run for it then one backs away (always Pea) and then the other 2 do...im sure they think im trying to poison them!


Have you tried Butchers Classic? You can get it in six tin packs (or sometimes 12 tin) from Tesco or Morrisons (or in 24 tin packs from Pets at Home). It's not the greatest food in the world, but it IS grain free, and grain is a common allergy food as they are not designed to eat it. It's chunks in jelly (lots of jelly), cheaper than Felix and Whiskas and I have it in my food rotation so I know I have a cheap but relatively decent food they will eat if push comes to shove. You may want to try feeding him separately when you try him with it in case Pea's reaction puts him off.

As to the relatives, I have to confess that whilst chillminx has the best advice, ForeverHome said what I was thinking...


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

i havent tried that, i have to go shopping tomorrow so i will have a look for it, thank you x


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## sandrallama (Jan 19, 2014)

I'm new to the forums, just joined over my own kitty crisis since christmas, just read through all your thread and can really identify with your frustration at getting different diagnoses and differing vets views and just wanting to get to the bottom if it  I totally lost confidence with the vets who treated my boy and its a horrible situation but well done you for standing strong, you're inspiring me to have strength too.

wanted to say all the best of luck with your lovely boy and hope to goodness he keeps picking up, he sounds like he is doing well so far but I can so understand your feelings, you sound like you are doing a great job and he is so lucky to have all your love and care

the beat thing to do is to stick around your pet loving friend just now, they will totally understand what you are going through! and ignore all those grumpies who don't love kitties, they just have cold dead hearts


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## sandrallama (Jan 19, 2014)

LostSoul said:


> Mac's on felix pouches which i know isn't great food but ive tried so many foods for my cats and they wont touch it, i know mac gets a bad tummy if any food has rabbit in it so i avoid that, i've tried raw that was a no go, tried it with the 3 cats i had before the 3 i have now and they wouldnt touch it and i tried it again when i got the cats i have now, both when they were young and again later, they wont touch any food in gravey or any kind of pate food, Mac likes cooked chicken so he has that a few times a week my other 2 wont touch it, they have very little dry food but right now they've been nibbling on wainwrights anti allergy recipe which my 2 girls love but mac isnt so keen but like i said they dont get dry often anyway so its all he gets. I've tried the wainwrights pouches too but none of them will touch it....but i do know that felix is like junk food i just dont know what else to feed them, my oldest cat Pea has only eaten felix pouches and strictly nothing else for almost 10 years, she wont even touch the tins...and trust me i have tried everything....they seem to get suspicious of new food, i give them food they all run for it then one backs away (always Pea) and then the other 2 do...im sure they think im trying to poison them!
> 
> Thank you xxx


my boy Boodle is the same, *loves* Felix in jelly, preferably pouches, and now our young cat is following suit although he likes a bit of biscuits too which I like them to have to crunch in for their teeth

the Butchers classic (jelly one esp) is the one other mainstream food I can get which they will both enjoy, so a good recommendation. I was pleasantly surprised considering its cost to see the favourable reviews it seems to get, you can get it for under £3.00 for 6 x 400 g. tins in my local wilkio's!


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

LostSoul said:


> me again
> Now for some good news, *his biopsy showed no cancer cells*, :biggrin: it just showed that he has active lymph nodes, so it looks like it is an infection of some sort afterall.
> His temperature is 38.5 and his weight is stable at 4.4kg
> she thinks its most probably is hemobartonella .
> so im still not really closer to knowing what it is but im one step closer to knowing what its not...i think


I'm glad (though not at all surprised) to hear this news and I agree about the feline infectious anaemia being the most likely diagnosis. Perhaps you should stick with this vet from now on.

If he's scratching his face as well as ears then food allergy would be top of my suspicions!


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

I wish i could stick with the vet i saw today but she was covering for another vet and is only there a week..and i think maybe my husband freaked her out by asking if he could see her again lol..i do hope he ment we  
she was nice and talked through everything us and didnt try to rush us at all,
im torn now because i intended to get all macs results or those that they can find at my next appointment next week and then go to a different clinic, ive spoken to one on the phone who seem nice but they wanted his results first and as much info as i can get...but im worried that changing surgeries will cause confusion, im definitely changing surgeries im just not sure if its a good idea to do it half way through Macs treatment. 
but im also not sure if hes on the right treatment or what the proper treatment should be


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## sandrallama (Jan 19, 2014)

LostSoul said:


> I wish i could stick with the vet i saw today but she was covering for another vet and is only there a week..and i think maybe my husband freaked her out by asking if he could see her again lol..i do hope he ment we
> she was nice and talked through everything us and didnt try to rush us at all,
> im torn now because i intended to get all macs results or those that they can find at my next appointment next week and then go to a different clinic, ive spoken to one on the phone who seem nice but they wanted his results first and as much info as i can get...but im worried that changing surgeries will cause confusion, im definitely changing surgeries im just not sure if its a good idea to do it half way through Macs treatment.
> but im also not sure if hes on the right treatment or what the proper treatment should be


It"s a difficult situation, but you are paying the Vet, its not like the NHS where you can only be registered to one doctor at a time. I was reading the the RCVs website and they do encourage you if you're unsure, to go to another vet for a second opinion if you wish.



> Seeking a second opinion
> 
> You can also talk to your vet and ask for a second opinion (not to be confused with 'secondary referrals', above). Your vet may decide to discuss the case with a colleague or to seek the advice of someone outside the practice.
> 
> ...


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

Can I just tell you my experience of wanting to change vets. Last year at this time I had three cats, two I lost in a short time of each other whilst under the care of my vet. Won't go into details. I was very disillusioned with the way they handled the illness of one which went on for eight months by which time it was too late. I wish I had changed then but I didn't and two months later I lost another. We have two other pets and, by this time, I couldn't even bear the thought of going into my vets. My third cat has on-going health problems and was having treatment at that time so there was no way I could avoid going so I decided I would have to bite the bullet. I did phone my vet and and explain I was moving, which you don't have to do, I then registered with another. By the time I went for my first appointment a couple of days later, they had received my cat's records and history from my other vets. They didn't want to re-do tests which my other vets had carried out, a good vet wouldn't do this and waste your money. I'm just pleased that I took the plunge as I feel so much better than I would have done had I stayed where I was. It's bad enough having a cat who is ill but it makes it so much worse if you don't have a good relationship with your vet. At the end of the day, what's most important is that your pet is getting good quality care and treatment so I would say don't put up with anything less.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Thank you all once again, i will keep my appointment for next week with Mac but my girls have a check up next week (one has a heart murmur and the other pulls her fur out with stress) so am taking those to the new vet and will then be able to speak to a new vet about mac face to face and hopefully be able to show them the test results i have and see what they advise...which im guessing will be to take him there, i cant carry on going to a vet clinic when i dont trust half of the vets the work there. 
If those vets had their way mac would have been put to sleep 3 weeks ago...and instead im watching him washing the inside of his e-collar because he hasnt worked out that the cone get inbetween his fur and his tongue!


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

LostSoul said:


> Thank you all once again, i will keep my appointment for next week with Mac but my girls have a check up next week (one has a heart murmur and the other pulls her fur out with stress) so am taking those to the new vet and will then be able to speak to a new vet about mac face to face and hopefully be able to show them the test results i have and see what they advise...which im guessing will be to take him there, i cant carry on going to a vet clinic when i dont trust half of the vets the work there.
> If those vets had their way mac would have been put to sleep 3 weeks ago...and instead im watching him washing the inside of his e-collar because he hasnt worked out that the cone get inbetween his fur and his tongue!


That sounds like a great idea, then you can get a feel for the new vet and make a decision about moving Mac after meeting them and talking it through.


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I agree, I'm sure you're doing the right thing.


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## sandrallama (Jan 19, 2014)

LostSoul said:


> Thank you all once again, i will keep my appointment for next week with Mac but my girls have a check up next week (one has a heart murmur and the other pulls her fur out with stress) so am taking those to the new vet and will then be able to speak to a new vet about mac face to face and hopefully be able to show them the test results i have and see what they advise...which im guessing will be to take him there, i cant carry on going to a vet clinic when i dont trust half of the vets the work there.
> If those vets had their way mac would have been put to sleep 3 weeks ago...and instead im watching him washing the inside of his e-collar because he hasnt worked out that the cone get inbetween his fur and his tongue!


awwww bless him 

that sounds a great plan, good luck.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Sorry if I have missed it somewhere else, but how is Mac doing ?


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

wicket said:


> Sorry if I have missed it somewhere else, but how is Mac doing ?


Mac is doing ok, he has another vet trip on wednesday to get his pcv tested, the e-collar stopped him from scratching his face and ears and we took that off around thursday and so far he's not scratched himself so im still not sure what caused him to scratch until he bled, i did buy him grain free food but he wouldnt touch it so hes been on his normal food.
His temperature was normal last monday and his weight is stable but his lymph nodes are still huge and we still havent had an official diagnosis of anything except possible hemobatonella, or possible something else!! 
i was told last week that he may need to stay on the medication he is on for another 3/4 weeks incase it is hemobart and then if theres no improvement with his glands they might do larger biopsies, even though needle biopsy was clear of cancer cells...its not just his lymph nodes that are swollen his thyroid is too .While he had a temperaure the vet said he definitely was fighting something when he didnt they said they would have thought if he was still fighting he would have a temperature...its so frustrating and im still too scared to let myself believe he will be ok.

Does anyone know if hemobartonella causes large lymph nodes, ive read so many different things online that ive confused myself.

In himself mac is fine, hes really energetic, hes eating just fine, his scratches on his face have healed up nicely and has got back into the not so nice habbit of waking us up by attacking one of his sisters in the early hours of the morning, he doesnt make a sound but my female cat cookie screams!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LS - I'm pleased to hear Mac is doing OK Enlarged lymph nodes are a sign of infection, and Haemobartonella Felis (also called Feline Infectious Anaemia) is treated with antibiotics, so it is an infection and if Mac does have this disease I assume it's the reason for his lymph nodes being so large. I understand that a 3 week course of antibiotics may be needed to clear up the infection. How long has Mac been on the ABs?

I see now (from reading up a bit on the disease) why the vets were fairly convinced he must have FeLV or FIV as apparently the presence of either of those illnesses which compromise the immune system makes a cat more likely to succumb to Haemobartonella. Though the disease itself is actually caught from fleas or ticks (as you no doubt know) I don't know how common/uncommon it is for a cat to develop Haemobartonella on its own, with no predisposing factors. Did the vet say?


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> LS - I'm pleased to hear Mac is doing OK Enlarged lymph nodes are a sign of infection, and Haemobartonella Felis (also called Feline Infectious Anaemia) is treated with antibiotics, so it is an infection and if Mac does have this disease I assume it's the reason for his lymph nodes being so large. I understand that a 3 week course of antibiotics may be needed to clear up the infection. How long has Mac been on the ABs?
> 
> I see now (from reading up a bit on the disease) why the vets were fairly convinced he must have FeLV or FIV as apparently the presence of either of those illnesses which compromise the immune system makes a cat more likely to succumb to Haemobartonella. Though the disease itself is actually caught from fleas or ticks (as you no doubt know) I don't know how common/uncommon it is for a cat to develop Haemobartonella on its own, with no predisposing factors. Did the vet say?


the vets havent really said anything to be honest, Mac has been on 2 ronaxan a day since new years day when they sent him home and half a destolit tablet, i was told by the vet last week that she has known for the treatment to be given for up to 8 weeks for hemobartonella, its a shame i cant see the same vet again she was the only vet to actually talk me through things and the only one who has actually said he is being treated for it, but she was covering for someone else...none of the vets have told me much about hemobart at all apart from saying its a possibility and he has tested negative but that doesnt mean he is negative, i understand its quite difficult to get a possitive diagnosis...plus the out of hours vet who did the tests didnt actually know what she was doing, ive asked about new tests and have been told they wouldnt get a possitive result now because hes on the medication...???
Since those out of hours tests were done no other vet has mentioned it until i started to ask them about it and those ive asked dont seem to know much about it...apart fromt he lovely vet last week.
ive been speaking to a lady online who runs blind cat rescue and sactuary in america, she has cats with fiv and felv too and every cat she rescues is automatically tested for hemobartonella and she told me that some of her non felv and fiv have been possitive in the past and now her vet suggests at least a 4 week course of medication for every cat she rescues just to be safe...

I have been told that because of macs past he may well have a compromised immune system, but i dont know how likely that is, he was 13 weeks when i got him, he was smothered in fleas, they were even stuck between his tiny teeth,he had worms and he couldnt stand without falling over the first night i had him and he smelled quite strange, the vet said he could have possibly been stoned! 
he was severly under weight and amemic and had previously lived pretty much outside for a few weeks, thanks to facebook we traced who sold him in the first place ( he was sold to a family member but as soon as they realised something was wrong they dumped him at our home) and a few weeks after we got him i found out the mum cat had died of what they thought was some type of poisoning. Mac was sold for £20 because the owners were desperate for a cigarette so im pretty sure the poor mum cat wasnt given proper vet treatment...and seeing the state mac was in when i got him i hate to think how the mum cat was, there were other kittens too but they were sold at 6 weeks and i cant find any more info on those, 
I did report everything to the rspca but was told it wasnt a cruelty or negligence case, it was just ignorance and they couldnt prosecute for ignorance!

I've had a strange feeling that somethings been wrong with Mac all the time ive had him but he didnt act sick..hes been to the vets with bad breath and panting both times i was told he was fine, obviously something was going on, his vaccinations are all up to date and hes neutered, every time the vet saw him they said he was fine but i always had a niggle something wasnt quite right..

this is him when i got him, almost midnight on 8th august 2012, after a flea treatment and a bath,Mac.day1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

and 3 days later,you can see how skinny he was
Mac, Day 3 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Rowans lymph nodes were huge - every node in his body was enlarged.

No cancer. (Ianthi was correct in their prediction on that too)

His temp was sky high, he had ABs.

No infection.

He wasn't eating or drinking, he stayed at my vets over a weekend on a drip and being tube fed, temp came down a bit - all good news.

Then he reverted, temp came back up, not eating or drinking again.

He had a rare auto-immune disease. They didnt want to give steroids in case it was an infection (lowers the immune system), as all his symptoms pointed to an infection.

Eventually he was in hospital for a week with a feeding tube in his neck, lymph node removal for biopsy, and test upon test upon test.

They eventually gave him chemo in conjunction with steroids, when they were pretty sure it was auto-immune.

This was back in February. He finally stopped all meds in December, and so far is fine.

The symptoms dont always indicate what is wrong, and can mimic other ailments.

I can't remember if you have insurance or not, if you do, why not ask for him to be referred so they can really take a good look at anything and everything?

If you don't have insurance, all I can say is Rowans week long stay, with all tests, including xrays, CT scans, different meds, heart ECG (he developed a murmur due to dehydration) and every other test they did, came to about £4k...

I really do know how you feel, and more or less a year ago I was going through _exactly_ what you are going through right now *huge hugs to you* xx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> Rowans lymph nodes were huge - every node in his body was enlarged.
> 
> No cancer. (Ianthi was correct in their prediction on that too)
> 
> ...


no sadly i dont have insurance...i could kick myself for being so stupid 

Mac is eating and drinking well..really well in fact, he eats more than my other 2 cats put together and he doesnt have a temperature any more as far as i know,
if i stay with the vets im at now the next step is a few more weeks on the ronaxan and then xrays and possible a lymph node removal we have an appointment on wednesday so maybe i'll get some new info...but probably not....i wont give up on him so what ever it takes i will do even if i have to sell a kidney or two to do it :ihih:


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

What a poor wee fellow Mac looks in those early photos He really was a little "Lost Soul" wasn't he? 

It sounds as though his terrible start in life could have had a lasting damaging effect on his health. For a young kitten to be so badly infested with fleas could cause serious harm, certainly anaemia, which can be fatal in very young kittens, if they are infested with fleas from birth.

It is wonderful that he *found* you to give him a good home and nurture him so well, and love him.  

I hope he continues to do well LS, and the antibiotics are the answer. Many many good thoughts to you and to Mac. 

Keep us updated with any news, yes?


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

chillminx said:


> What a poor wee fellow Mac looks in those early photos He really was a little "Lost Soul" wasn't he?
> 
> It sounds as though his terrible start in life could have had a lasting damaging effect on his health. For a young kitten to be so badly infested with fleas could cause serious harm, certainly anaemia, which can be fatal in very young kittens, if they are infested with fleas from birth.
> 
> ...


Can only second this, please keep up updated. I had a couple of kittens many years ago that were born feral, when they were a year old my vet was convinced they must have felv or fiv because both their teeth had pretty much rotted away by the time they were a year old, they both had to have extensive dental work to remove virtually all teeth. The tests came back clear so my vet at the time thought their poor start in life was responsible. Guess what I am trying to say is Macs poor start could very well be to blame.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> What a poor wee fellow Mac looks in those early photos He really was a little "Lost Soul" wasn't he?
> 
> It sounds as though his terrible start in life could have had a lasting damaging effect on his health. For a young kitten to be so badly infested with fleas could cause serious harm, certainly anaemia, which can be fatal in very young kittens, if they are infested with fleas from birth.
> 
> ...


Yes Mac was quite a state when we got him, the ginger colour in his fur was actually flea dirt and thats after a bath! 
he had so much of it when i brushed him it made crunchy noises.
im really hoping the anti biotics are the answer too, quite honestly if it wasnt for the huge lumps in his neck i wouldnt think there was anything wrong with him, hes acting completely normally.
I will keep you updated, im so very grateful for all the help everyone gives me here...more grateful than i could ever say.



wicket said:


> Can only second this, please keep up updated. I had a couple of kittens many years ago that were born feral, when they were a year old my vet was convinced they must have felv or fiv because both their teeth had pretty much rotted away by the time they were a year old, they both had to have extensive dental work to remove virtually all teeth. The tests came back clear so my vet at the time thought their poor start in life was responsible. Guess what I am trying to say is Macs poor start could very well be to blame.


mac doesnt have good teeth either, they are very stained for a cat his age and his breath has been awful for the entire time ive had him...strangely its been better since hes been on the antibiotics.

his teeth might be bad but he knows how to use it, i came home from shopping and found a hole chewed through my kitchen blind and mac sitting proudly looking out of the window...guess it serves me right for forgetting to open it before i went out !!


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Mac had the vets again today and it didnt go as well as last time.
His temperature has risen to 39.5 again and his red cell count has dropped to 28 which they said was still within the normal range and tried to tell me not to worry too much about it...thats like telling me not to breath, i cant control it!
he said because macs red cell count was 12 not so long ago that even though its low'ish its not low for him, that didnt help me witht he worrying!
he's not dehydrated, the vet could see no signs of jaundice and his weight is stable at 4.4kg 
now the vet thinks becase of his temperature going up and down and the swollen lymph nodes that he has some kind of viral infection, hes still surprised that mac is negative for FIV and FELV but he double checked the test results and he is definitely negative (and the tests were repeated to make sure) and he said if it was FIP there should be more symptoms by now because its been over a month since he first got sick and he would have thought mac would be a lot worse than he is, he actually said he looks very healthy...apart from the fact that he isnt.
The vet did say it is possible (but he wasnt too sure) that if mac does have hemobartonella that it was dormant and triggered by a virus, so he has to stay on the ronaxan and liver meds plus hes now on some kind of penecillin tablet, the label says amox/clav
i do have an appointment for my girls with a new vet on friday so i will be asking for advice and possibly switching vets with mac..but if he stays at the same vet he goes back on the 7th feb

im still as confused as ever and still as worried, i just want my boy better 

edit...even more confused now as ive just read that those antibiotics are for bacterial infections only and not viral infections, tried ringing the vet and got told they will ring me back....i bet they wont....and they didnt!!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LostSoul said:


> > even more confused now as ive just read that those antibiotics are for bacterial infections only and not viral infections, tried ringing the vet and got told they will ring me back....i bet they wont....and they didnt!!
> 
> 
> LS - thank you for the update on Mac's progress.  It sounds as though things are still a bit up and down with the dear fellow.
> ...


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> LostSoul said:
> 
> 
> > LS - thank you for the update on Mac's progress.  It sounds as though things are still a bit up and down with the dear fellow.
> ...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I do hope the new antibiotics will help. Do you know the name of them? 

I should think the itching may be due to a food allergy, and when Mac is under stress, e.g. a visit to the vet, it stirs everything up again. 

He certainly sounds a lot better, and it's good he's eating well. :thumbsup: 
If it is a virus he could be a bit up and down from one day to the next, until his body has overcome it.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> I do hope the new antibiotics will help. Do you know the name of them?
> 
> I should think the itching may be due to a food allergy, and when Mac is under stress, e.g. a visit to the vet, it stirs everything up again.
> 
> ...


the label on the pills says amox/clav which i think is AMOXICILLIN-CLAVULANATE ..sorry for the capitals i copied and pasted. 
the tablets are huge big pink things and he has to have a quarter twice a day for 10 days along with the 2 ronaxan in the morning and half a destolit tablet, 
its only day 2 on the pills and so far hes been ok on them...my old girl had an 'explosive' reaction to anything with penicillin in so ive been expecting the worst.
luckily he has stopped itching so he wont have to wear the cone of shame again.

ive tried to read up on the medication and found that hemobartonella is resistant to it but i guess thats why he is still on the ronaxan, it seems like a broad spectrum antibiotic so hopefully it will help, somethings got to work soon.....


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Gosh poor mac it's taking a while. Topping up the good vibes for Mac & slave.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Cazzer said:


> Gosh poor mac it's taking a while. Topping up the good vibes for Mac & slave.


yes its been over a month now since he first got sick and we're no closer really to having any answers.

Thank you for the good vibes, we can really use them about now xxx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LostSoul said:


> > its been over a month now since he first got sick and we're no closer really to having any answers.
> 
> 
> I understand it must be very frustrating LS, but I am going to look at the lack of a firm diagnosis as a positive thing, because if it were anything serious or life threatening surely the vets would have found it by now. But as long as Mac is not completely well I appreciate it is a worry for you. Lots of positive vibes to him and you hun


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

I saw a new vet with my 2 female cats a few days ago and had a good conversation about Mac, the new vet completely agreed with the initial vets advice of putting mac to sleep, he said if he saw a cat with jaundice and a blood cell count of 12 he would have advised the same thing, even without a diagnosis...that surprised me a little and made me unsure of whether i wanted mycats to be patients of this vet or not....but he also said that now knowing mac came through that without a blood transfusion he would think twice in future, 
we talked through the few test results i have and again he agreed with the medications mac was on...except he thought steroids would be helpful, my vet said no steroids because of macs temperature...they are willing to take mac on there but advised i let them retest for fiv and felv as thats the usual underlying condition for they symptoms Mac has.....i have the results of those tests and they both say a definite negative and both tests were done more than once because my vet didnt belive the results and they were tests from a lab not the snap tests (although he had lots of those done too) so in my opinion hes negative and shouldnt really have to be restested....the new vet advised that i finish the pills mac is on and see what my vet decides is the next step and then if im not satisfied the new vet will take over, he agrees that the ronaxan needs to continue for at least a few more weeks and if there is no change on the new antibiotic then he would change it for a different one and try that before exploring more....he seems like a nice vet but he didnt like the fact that my cat Pea weighs 13lb...or that my cat cookie goes absolutely mental at the vet but they got through their appointments without too much damage to the vet 

just to add Mac is still acting fine, hes so energetic and is playing for hours everyday... im pretty sure i can feel a change to the size of his lymph nodes but dont want to jinx things...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Well that sounds like the visit to the vets was a fairly positive experience LS:thumbup1: Also sounds as though the new vet was more prepared to go through things with you and explain in detail better, so that's good too. 

As Mac has been tested and retested already with lab tests for FIV and FelV I agree, I can't see much point in testing him again so soon.

What was this vet's view about the haemobartonella? Does he feel it's a definite diagnosis? Or the "virus" the previous vet provisionally diagnosed? 

Very pleased to hear Mac is full of beans and playing a lot, bless him. This is excellent news!:thumbup1:


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Nothing helpful to add, I'm afraid : however I'd like you to know that I, and no doubt many others , have been following this thread since the first time you posted. 

Each day when I log on this is the first thread that I look for, hoping to see good news for you and Mac. Sending every good vibe I can possibly muster up.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Forester said:


> Nothing helpful to add, I'm afraid : however I'd like you to know that I, and no doubt many others , have been following this thread since the first time you posted.
> 
> Each day when I log on this is the first thread that I look for, hoping to see good news for you and Mac. Sending every good vibe I can possibly muster up.


Can only second this, everything crossed for you and Mac here


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> Well that sounds like the visit to the vets was a fairly positive experience LS:thumbup1: Also sounds as though the new vet was more prepared to go through things with you and explain in detail better, so that's good too.
> 
> As Mac has been tested and retested already with lab tests for FIV and FelV I agree, I can't see much point in testing him again so soon.
> 
> ...


the new vet wasnt sure about hemobartonella, he said he hasnt had much experience with it but does know that ronaxan is the usual treatment and that it can take up to 2 months or so for it to work completely and seeing as mac seemed to get better after starting the ronaxan it would seem quite possible that he has it but he didnt know if he could have harboured it for so long without getting sick, he also said it can take a lot of tests before a positive results shows so mac being negative twice doesnt mea he is negative...so to be honest he didnt know much more than the vet im seeing right now.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

i'm getting so frustrated, on saturday i could feel a difference in the size of the lumps in macs neck...by sunday there was a huge difference, his lymph nodes were still big but they werent massive anymore...woke up this morning and they are right back to being massive again. 
im starting to wonder if the ronaxan can cause his lymph nodes to swell up, he came home on jan 1st and started on the ronaxan 2 tablets once a day and on the 7th jan i noticed the lumps in his neck...i know im just clutching at straws, im just want my boy better....another thing missing from macs notes is the date when i rang and told them i could feel lumps in his neck...and the appointment i made to show the vet them hasnt logged them either 
good job ive been putting everything down on here, its become like my diary since mac got sick!


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

its me again... :blush2:
well, mac saw a new vet today, she has no idea what is wrong with him either, said in her opinion its either an infection of unknown origin or some form of cancer 

his pcv has gone up to 35 which was a surprise as the vet thought his gums looked very pale, since he first got sick it has been 12,14,32,31,26 and now 35, his temperature is 38.9 and it was 39.5 last time and his weight is up to 4.7kg, from 4.4kg i was a bit worried that his weigh increase might have been fluid (ive been reading too much on the internet) but the vet could see,feel or hear no sign of any, hes just getting fat  it isnt surprising really hes eating loads.
They want to try 2 more weeks on the 2 types of antibiotics and destolit then a check up to on his pcv and temp and then 2 weeks without medications to see how he copes...if after that there is no change to his lymph nodes (they are all swollen not just his neck ones) they will do a proper biopsy and take a large chunk if lymph node, she said although 3 needle biopsies on 3 different nodes were clear of cancer cells that doesnt mean he doesnt have it.. 
I was hoping the new vet would change his medication, try something new but all they asked is what is he on now and said we'll give you more of that then...its all so frustrating, i can now feel 4 lumps in macs neck instead of 2, so i dont know if hes getting worse or because the lumps are right next to each other has the swelling gone down a little so instead of it feeling like one huge lump it now fels like 2...i did tell the vet that today but becasue she hadnt seen him before she couldnt judge.

just to add a stupid question, are biopsies only done to find cancer or could it show something else?

she said hes a very strange case as he seems so healthy in every way except for the fact that he obviously isnt..


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi LS, sorry I only just read your latest post Biopsies are done when looking for cancerous tumours, pre-cancererous conditions, or inflammatory conditions e.g. IBD.

Biopsy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I agree Mac's case is a strange one. But some diseases can take a long time to diagnose, as it is often about looking in the right part of the body and carrying out the right tests. It is particularly confusing for the vet (or the doctor) when the symptoms could be those of a number of different diseases.

I am pleased to hear Mac is eating well and has put on a bit of weight though, and also his temperature is down. Whatever is wrong with him he seems to be fighting it at present, which is good news. 

Thinking of you and Mac, and hoping for more good news soon.


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## nightkitten (Jun 15, 2012)

I haven't read the whole thread and if this vet has already been suggested then I apologise for that. Your story just reminds me quite a bit of MCWillow's Rowan. He was very ill and it took ages for the vets to find out what it actually was.
Rowan was taken to these guys:
N.D.S.R. North Downs Specialist Referrals - Home Page

As you are in Kent it might be possible for you to go and see them as you are seeing a new vet anyway?

They operated on the spine of my cat too and have done a marvelous job, I can only recommend these people.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> Hi LS, sorry I only just read your latest post Biopsies are done when looking for cancerous tumours, pre-cancererous conditions, or inflammatory conditions e.g. IBD.
> 
> Biopsy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


it is the not knowing that is driving me mad, if i knew what was wrong i would know what to look out for, the vets keep saying infection..which is a lot better than the other diagnosis ive had but hes been on the antibiotics for so long and there isnt any change, he doesnt seem bothered but im so frustrated.
Mac is definitely feeling better in himself even if he isnt better...hes so energetic, he tried to hump my female cat cookie today which didnt end well for mac, cookie is tiny but she a tiny ball of pure evil  
mac now has teeth marks on his neck  
mac is neutered by the way but it doesnt stop him trying!



nightkitten said:


> I haven't read the whole thread and if this vet has already been suggested then I apologise for that. Your story just reminds me quite a bit of MCWillow's Rowan. He was very ill and it took ages for the vets to find out what it actually was.
> Rowan was taken to these guys:
> N.D.S.R. North Downs Specialist Referrals - Home Page
> 
> ...


it is quite a way away from me but if they can help then i will try...thank you xxx


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I have been following this thread with interest. Sorry that they still don't seem to have identified Mac's illness. The lack of clear clinical findings makes me think it is an idiopathic autoimmune disease of some sort. Has the vet mentioned anything about that? 
The problem with autoimmune diseases (having suffered from one myself in the past ) is that blood tests show nothing, scans show nothing, yet the symptoms are there. Also, aside from steroids and other poisonous treatments, there is not much else one can do, nor anything one can do to stop it recurring. It is very frustrating. The only thing I could suggest would be to put Mac on a natural supplement to boost his immune system in its entirety (which would do him no harm in any case).
Good luck.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

koekemakranka said:


> I have been following this thread with interest. Sorry that they still don't seem to have identified Mac's illness. The lack of clear clinical findings makes me think it is an idiopathic autoimmune disease of some sort. Has the vet mentioned anything about that?
> The problem with autoimmune diseases (having suffered from one myself in the past ) is that blood tests show nothing, scans show nothing, yet the symptoms are there. Also, aside from steroids and other poisonous treatments, there is not much else one can do, nor anything one can do to stop it recurring. It is very frustrating. The only thing I could suggest would be to put Mac on a natural supplement to boost his immune system in its entirety (which would do him no harm in any case).
> Good luck.


it seems like all the vets ive seen link autoimmune problems with fiv or felv when obviously they arent the only things that can cause it or trigger it, i will ask the vet next time i see them, they keep mentioning that he should be on steroids but wont give any because of his temperature...i will definitely look into a natural supplement, ive been reading a lot about them and different vitamins that could help recently but havent started him on anything incase it effected the medications hes on..which it probably wouldnt but to be honest i didnt want to risk it because im slightly paranoid  ok a lot paranoid


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

not much of an update...everything is the same with Mac, he saw the vet today, same one he saw last time and she was very happy with him in every way except for the lymph nodes...his temperature was normal, his cell count is normal and there is no sign of any jaundice...so they want to try stopping his ronaxan, destolit and amox/clav for a week and just see what happens,then give him a blood test to see how things are going, im not sure how i feel about it, im scared i will miss something serious and not know hes getting sick again...but i also know he cant stay on the pills for ever....the vet said today she has no idea whether this is an infection, a disease or if the lymph node swelling is due to the medication...i guess we'll find out if its the latter soon.


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Oh dear poor mac it really is turning into a long haul finding out what is wrong with him. Poor lad. Hope he does ok without meds. What a worry he must be for you x


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LS - good to hear some positive news, though I appreciate you are not out of the woods yet with Mac. I think it will be useful to stop the antibiotics for a week as the vet says and see what a blood test shows. Easier to measure his progress that way. 

Awaiting your next update


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

it is 8 weeks today since Mac first went to the vet, so hes been on the destolit for all that time, im not sure when they started the ronaxan but i was given it to give to him on the 1st of january when he came home so its been a long haul and i know we have to try stopping the pills, im just worried, but 8 weeks ago they told me he wouldnt survive the night because his red cells were so low and he's still here, then every day for the next few days they advised me to put him to sleep for one thing or the other....
the vet was very nice yesterday she understood why i will be worried about missing something, she even said that although Macs cell count is fine his gums are pale looking and must be naturally pale so it is harder to tell if his anemia is returning but she told me to take a photo of how they were yesterday and as long as they look similar then thats fine and she showed me how to check his eyes for jaundice. His nose changes colour too, it can go from very pale to very pink throughout the day.
she did want to leave him for 2 weeks before being checked but i thought a week would be better, if not for him then for me...

here is today


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Mac is just adorable, and I am so glad to hear that he is doing better now.
Hopefully he will continue from strength to strength.


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## korrok (Sep 4, 2013)

LostSoul said:


> it is 8 weeks today since Mac first went to the vet, so hes been on the destolit for all that time, im not sure when they started the ronaxan but i was given it to give to him on the 1st of january when he came home so its been a long haul and i know we have to try stopping the pills, im just worried, but 8 weeks ago they told me he wouldnt survive the night because his red cells were so low and he's still here, then every day for the next few days they advised me to put him to sleep for one thing or the other....
> the vet was very nice yesterday she understood why i will be worried about missing something, she even said that although Macs cell count is fine his gums are pale looking and must be naturally pale so it is harder to tell if his anemia is returning but she told me to take a photo of how they were yesterday and as long as they look similar then thats fine and she showed me how to check his eyes for jaundice. His nose changes colour too, it can go from very pale to very pink throughout the day.
> she did want to leave him for 2 weeks before being checked but i thought a week would be better, if not for him then for me...
> 
> ...


He looks like such a happy, gorgeous boy. I'm so glad he's doing well. Have been following this thread avidly with all fingers crossed for Mac to get answers and treatment.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> she did want to leave him for 2 weeks before being checked but i thought a week would be better, *if not for him then for me*...


I know that feeling


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

im definitely freaking out a little and im sure right now im a lot more bothered by his illness than he is...and would you believe his first day off of the meds and i wake up with swollen glands


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## slartibartfast (Dec 28, 2013)

Me&Potter wish you&Mac many happy years together.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

LostSoul said:


> im definitely freaking out a little and im sure right now im a lot more bothered by his illness than he is...and would you believe his first day off of the meds and i wake up with swollen glands


Sorry to hear this but frankly I'm not surprised in view of all you've been through with Mac.!Try not to worry too much now he's off the meds....he's very unlikely IMO to suffer any acute symptoms and don't forget he managed quite well with a low PCV last time! I'll be most interested to hear what the next blood tests reveal.


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

best wishes for him and you too xx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Mac went back to the vet today, i was really hoping for good news but it wasn't that straight forward....His temperature has gone up again, 
the vet thought his lymph nodes felt bigger today ( to me they felt the same) so he wanted to do a needle biopsy...i told them one was done on the 15th January and it was fine but he said it will need doing again because its probably cancer and the reason he thinks this is because they dont know what else it could be  he said if it was an infection my other cats would have caught it by now and they are both fine.
After a good check over they decided to do a complete blood panel this week instead and see what it shows, if anything. Mac had one done at the first vets almost 9 weeks ago and it didnt show much at all...or as far as i know it didnt.
he is showing no signs of jaundice at all and although he didnt have his pcv done today both the vet and nurse said his gums have very good colour, his weight is stable and all in all he seems in good health except of course he isnt.
So we were told to put him back on antibiotics and then he changed his mind and said we'll wait for the blood results..strangely everytime i see this vet macs temp is higher than when he see's the other vets..
on the way out the nurse spoke to us and said its probably still an infection but if its a virus no matter how long hes on the ab's they wont work and as long as hes acting fine i shouldnt worry too much about the temperature but then she added that its possible some kind of immune disease like fiv or felv, i told her he'd been tested and was negative for both and she said we should wait and see....i feel so down, he hasn't acted any different without the pills in the last week and i was so convinced everything was going to be ok...now i dont know what to think, the vet said he isnt getting better, that if it was treatable he would be better and there is a huge chance he wont get better....but he is so much better than he was after christmas and he isnt acting sick at all, i just wish i knew how to help him.

so hes home with no pills,he has just eaten a huge plate of food and is now killing his mousie...while im being over emotional watching him acting so normal when the vet thinks he is so sick


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## RubyFelicity (Aug 26, 2013)

Hi LS have you moved vets yet? I have just moved to a good vet and it makes such a difference.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

RubyFelicity said:


> Hi LS have you moved vets yet? I have just moved to a good vet and it makes such a difference.


yes i moved vets, the first appointment was wonderful but sadly since then its been a similar story to my old vet, some good vets and some very bad ones. I was assured i would be able to see the same vet every appointment, that hasnt happened, My appointment today was supposed to be with one of the 'good' vets but because the other vet finished first i had to see him instead...i just get so frustrated having to repeat everything from day one every time i see a different vet, the one today i have seen a few times before but he didnt remember mac at first and then after saying he didnt remember he said his lymph nodes felt bigger than before. 
They keep coming back to cancer, i was sure the ruled that out with the needle biopsies but now im not so sure


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Poor mac and you. I so wish you had found out the problem by now. Topping up the vibes x


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The results of a needle biopsy can change over time. Maybe a cancer that is growing, or it simply didn't happen to go through cancer cells the first time.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> The results of a needle biopsy can change over time. Maybe a cancer that is growing, or it simply didn't happen to go through cancer cells the first time.


i know...i was just kidding myself that the first ones were the only ones he needed, they did 3 needle biopsies from 3 different lymph nodes and they were all clear....and i know the vet is right and that cancer would be the most obvious answer,previous vets have said they didnt think it was an option..but now we have to wait for the results of the blood panel before they do anything else...


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

I rang the vet today to see if the blood results were back and got told that some were but some needed redoing and the receptionist said she didnt quite understand the ones that were there, so i have an appointment for thursday, they cant fit me in before then ...now im paranoid that they found something and wanted to bring the appointment forward, to be honest im just paranoid about everything 
Mac is looking a little pale...but thats nothing new,its something else for me to be paranoid about, hes still acting just fine but hes getting scared of me, i keep checking his eyes and gums and every time i put my shoes on he thinks hes going to the vets and hides...i hate seeing my usually big brave boy acting so scared, hes gone from walking around the vet room like he lives there to hiding flat in the bottom of his carrier. Ive tried feliway spray and taking treats and toys but nothing helps.


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## kategod (Feb 13, 2014)

Your poor boy, it is awful to see them when they get so freaked out, but who can blame them - Henry bit me the last time we went to the vet and he is normally the most gentle cat, but he is just so sick of people sticking needles in him and shoving thermometers up his bottom...

I really, really hope it is good news for you on Thursday. I can understand you being paranoid but it could still just be a very persistent virus/infection. My vet told me that they can hang around for several months with symptoms coming and going - and he also said that just because my other cat wasn't sick didn't mean it wasn't a virus/infection. Some cats have weaker immune systems, I guess. I find it quite strange that your vet seems to have ruled out an infection just because only one of your cats was sick - that doesn't seem right.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

my old vet was convinced it was infection and wanted to try cycling through meds until they found one that worked..well they were convinced after it was proved it wasnt FIV,FELV or FIP, they spent so much time trying to get a positive result to one of those that they didnt do anything else..i had so many bad experiences with them i changed vet, i'd been taking mac to my old vet with bad breath and panting which they said was normal for him, he had these pretty much from day one and i was back and forth all the time the last time was just a few weeks before he was admited so obviously it was the start of something as he doesnt have bad breath anymore and he hasnt panted for ages.
i took him there 3 times in the month before he was admitted because he was scratching his ear non stop, he was even rubbing it on the floor but again they couldnt see anything (he hasnt done that for a while now either) and when he did get sick they just kept telling me to put him sleep and not try because there wasnt any point, i lost all trust in them...my first few appointmnts with my new vet were wonderful but since then its just been so frustrating,
they said they wouldnt need to do many retests but have done almost all of them and now want to redo the needle biopsies which showed his nodes were clear but active before....i dont mind the cost if it gets us closer to finding out whats wrong but we keep going over the same things and getting the same results, to me the temperature and lymph node enlargement seems like an infection especially as when he was on the latest antibiotics his temperature went down to normal and his nodes got slightly smaller, 
i have been told he could have a problem with his immune system as he had such a bad start in life but i just dont know...they tell me to get him there straight away if i think he looks pale but even the vet admitted he always looks pale even when they know his pcv is fine so how am i supposed to know...i told them on the phone his nose is very very pale today, they told me ignore the colour of his nose but thats the only reason he went to the vets in the first place 9 weeks ago...:incazzato:

ok...rant over, i feel better now....sorry!!


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Is there anyone on here within a reasonable distance who could give you a personal recommendation of their vet? Not just the surgery but the named vet. Just thinking with that and the notes requested from the two previous vets, if you explain the history and why you want some definitive answers as the cat is getting stressed hopefully they might be able to focus help where it's needed.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

well Mac really hasnt been himself today, hes just been quiet and he was sick earlier, just once, he probably just ate too much too quick but just incase ive been back on the phone to the vet and they said all his results are back (i was told earlier they werent back and they needed to be redone) and they want to see him first thing in the morning...im worried sick now


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Oh no so sorry to hear this. Will be thinking of you both tomorrow x


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

Good luck for tomorrow - I've been reading your thread but not commented as I can't help


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh goodness, I didn't realise Mac was still poorly and you still had no definite diagnosis. I really feel for you both :sad:
Sending positive vibes for tomorrow and have everything crossed for good news xx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Cazzer said:


> Oh no so sorry to hear this. Will be thinking of you both tomorrow x


Thank you xxx



Jannor said:


> Good luck for tomorrow - I've been reading your thread but not commented as I can't help


Thank you, i know ive been ranting and typing nonsense in this thread...and repeating myself a million times..sorry about that! 



moggie14 said:


> Oh goodness, I didn't realise Mac was still poorly and you still had no definite diagnosis. I really feel for you both :sad:
> Sending positive vibes for tomorrow and have everything crossed for good news xx


Thank you.
It was 9 weeks on saturday since Mac first got sick,it feels like forever  
ive been worried sick all day because hes been very quiet all day and hasnt eaten much and was sick..now its late hes litterally leaping around the room playing and has eaten a whole plate of food, im keeping everything crossed that nothing serious shows on his bloods tomorrow and that today was just an off day.


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

aww gladhe s perked up and eaten , best wishes for tomorrow Mac xx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Lots and lots of positive vibes for Mac for tomorrow LS:thumbup1:


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

im so mad at the vet right now ...
Macs bloods showed pretty much the same as last time (apparently) that he has a lot of white cells in his blood, his temperature is back to 39.6 and the vet said this means he has FIP, 
he asked if i wanted to have him put to sleep today and he seemed confused when i said no, i asked for a print out of the results and was told i couldnt have them...i asked them to try him on the amox.clav he was on before because there was an improvement while he was on it but he didnt want to try, they said hes dying and i need to come to terms with that...i refused to leave with nothing, Mac had an injection of antibiotic today and will start another course of pills tomorrow, his red cell count was within normal range and there is no sign of jaundice 
he had another needle biopsy, all of his lymph nodes are now bigger than ever...according to the vet this is another sign of FIP, i asked if it was possible if he could have it for 9 weeks and not be deteriorating much he couldnt answer, he said in his opinion it is fip or an fip type infection  
ive already phoned a different vet clinic, the last one willing to take him on as a patient which is close enough for me to get to easily but on the phone they agreed it sounded like my vet had made the right diagnosis. I have also left a message for a specialist and am waiting for them to call back.

Mac hasnt eaten much today but he has eaten...and its still early,hes perky though and not as pale as yesterday.


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## korrok (Sep 4, 2013)

I am honestly sickened and astounded at these vets who immediately want to put to sleep an animal that is not suffering and is well in himself. Even if he does have an incurable condition, SURELY you would wait until he is actually unwell to consider such a thing?! :cursing:

I'm so sorry for what you and Mac are going through right now.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

oh Lost Soul my heart goes out to you and Mac, I am so sorry that your vet cannot make a diagnosis - but to suggest putting him to sleep while he obviuosly has quality of life is just shocking. Sending you both big hugs.


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## kategod (Feb 13, 2014)

I am so sorry to hear your news - but think you are absolutely doing the right thing by seeking a second opinion. As Mac has previously tested negative for FIP (with presumably a low coronavirus titre), it seems strange that this vet is now stating categorically that it is FIP. As they don't have a firm diagnosis based on bloodwork - a raised white blood cell count and high temperature could suggest any number of things - they really should be referring him to a specialist at this stage. It sounds silly, but is your vet a 'cat person' - often they have a website with personal profiles which list their interests and the pets they have themselves? I have found that vets who own cats themselves can seem less hasty to jump to conclusions - certainly this was my recent experience with Henry and his mystery ailment with very similar symptoms to Mac. 

Just one suggestion - and you have probably already tried this - but when I stopped giving Henry food containing grain fillers, his symptoms disappeared. It could well just be a coincidence but I do wonder if he had a food intolerance similar to coeliac disease in humans which was causing inflammation - I know coeliac disease in humans can result in swollen lymph nodes and high fevers. Anyway, maybe worth a try?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LostSoul, I am so sorry to hear this news, but am in complete accord with the others with regard the ridiculous & insensitive suggestion from your vet to have Mac pts now

Why on earth any vet would consider such a course of action when a cat still has quality of life and is eating well, is beyond me.  If it were me I would not want anything more to do with that particular vet if that is his/her attitude.

I am not sure how helpful it will be though for you to go to a new vet at this stage who will no doubt want to carry out all over again the same tests this vet has done. And may possibly come up with the same conclusion as this vet has leaving you worse off financially without being any further forward.

Working on the premise that it might possibly be dry FIP, I wonder if you have looked at Dr Diane Addie's website and downloaded her e-book regarding diagnosis and treatment of the disease. If not I think it would be worth your doing so before considering your next move.

Feline Infectious Peritonitis and Coronavirus Web Site

Although FIP is usually fatal, I understand there may possibly be some cases where the cat has recovered. I appreciate those cases may have been misdiagnosed in the first place and were not FIP, but even so, if there is even the remotest possibility the disease could be managed, with drugs if necessary, to extend Macs life (with good quality of life) then I don't see why this avenue should not be followed by the vet.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

ive spoken to a specialist vet near me but it seems like i really just cant afford to go there, thats my fault and now he has to suffer for it ..... they were lovely, explained that although mac has the symptoms for FIP it still certainly could be something different but that i shouldnt hold my breath, that hes obviously a very sick cat and he might not be able to fight whatever virus he has, if he went there they would do a biopsy, get him on an iv of antibiotics and take it from there...hes had a biopsy done today and had an injection of antibiotics with pills to start tomorrow...ive also spoken to the head vet at the other clinic who pretty much told me to wait at least for 24 hours because theres nothing really they would do today except start some antibiotics (which they cant do because hes had the jab today) and redo his bloods, 
he hasnt wanted to eat much today but he almost tore my hand off trying to get to some tuna earlier...hes hungry though, hes following me about looking for food, im wondering if he cant smell it so i will warm some up later and see if that helps...his lymph nodes are bigger than ever so i guess its not surprising he doesnt want to eat too much, the vet said him not having much of an appetite ment it was the begining of the end, which im afraid might be true, macs just not right, i can see it 

right now he is asleep in a box which is way too small for him but hes squeezed in somehow 
i guess ive just got to wait and see what happens,im devestated, i had let myself believe he was going to be fine...and if he was insured i could have taken somewhere better, which is entirely my fault.
im thinking i might even take a trip back to my old vets.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I am so sorry LostSoul, I really sympathise with what you are going through, but please stop blaming yourself with regard to not having insurance. 

At the time you adopted Mac you decided justifiably, for whatever reason, not to get him insured, and you reached that decision by weighing things up carefully and opting for what seemed the best at the time. It is easy to have 20/20 vision with hindsight hun, we have all been there But blaming yourself will only make you more unhappy. 

I really, really hope and pray your vet is wrong that lovely Mac is "at the beginning of the end". I think all you can do is take one day a time at the moment and not allow yourself to think too far ahead right now with regard to his life expectancy. 

I know you would be devastated to lose your gorgeous boy and I completely understand how difficult a time this is for you. We are all here for you so please ask for as much support as you need. 

Thinking of you and Mac


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm really sorry to hear what is happening with Mac. I did read this whole thread some weeks back so forgive me for forgetting some of the little details:

Has he had the PCR for coronavirus? Presumably this came back negative?

Have you spoken to your current vet about a biopsy? Is Mac stable enough to undergo the procedure?

Hugs for Mac xxx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Shoshannah said:


> I'm really sorry to hear what is happening with Mac. I did read this whole thread some weeks back so forgive me for forgetting some of the little details:
> 
> Has he had the PCR for coronavirus? Presumably this came back negative?
> 
> ...


Mac has the test when he first got sick, it was one of the tests that came back inconclusive...it seems that every test was inconclusive at first, i dont think they were done correctly, thats one reason why i changed vets, i asked about retesting weeks ago but was told there was no point as he was on medication and it would interfere with the result and they didnt think he had FIP so didnt see the point...hes had 2 complete blood panels since then and both have shown high white cell count, the first showed the low red cell count and raised liver enzymes ( i think) but those are ok now....
macs had a needle biopsy, they biopsied 3 nodes back in january which were clear of cancer cells but they did another two today.
He's stable, last week the same vet i saw today was talking about cutting a piece of lymph node out and he really isnt much different this week, except hes eaten less since yesterday.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

LostSoul said:


> Mac has the test when he first got sick, it was one of the tests that came back inconclusive...it seems that every test was inconclusive at first, i dont think they were done correctly, thats one reason why i changed vets, i asked about retesting weeks ago but was told there was no point as he was on medication and it would interfere with the result and they didnt think he had FIP so didnt see the point...hes had 2 complete blood panels since then and both have shown high white cell count, the first showed the low red cell count and raised liver enzymes ( i think) but those are ok now....
> macs had a needle biopsy, they biopsied 3 nodes back in january which were clear of cancer cells but they did another two today.
> He's stable, last week the same vet i saw today was talking about cutting a piece of lymph node out and he really isnt much different this week, except hes eaten less since yesterday.


Ohhh... what meds was he on? Antibiotics? I know the feline coronavirus antibody test is not enough to make a diagnosis but surely if Mac comes back negative it would rule out FIP (at least the dry version)?

Has the vet spoken to a specialist? Might be worth them doing so if they haven't already as specialists are usually happy to give advice over the phone regarding diagnostic plans and treatment.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> I am so sorry LostSoul, I really sympathise with what you are going through, but please stop blaming yourself with regard to not having insurance.
> 
> At the time you adopted Mac you decided justifiably, for whatever reason, not to get him insured, and you reached that decision by weighing things up carefully and opting for what seemed the best at the time. It is easy to have 20/20 vision with hindsight hun, we have all been there But blaming yourself will only make you more unhappy.
> 
> ...


we didnt intend to keep Mac, he was just going to stay here until he was healthy enough to be rehomed....that was 19 months ago...i enquired about insurance when he first came here and was told because he was already sick it wouldnt be a simple case of insuring him, it depended on the illness he had and what complications came from that...i decided to delay it and just forgot...

mac really isnt himself, im still praying the vet is wrong and to be honest the amount of wrong diagnosis ive had with him i wouldnt be surprised...but i do know something is wrong, i can see it...for weeks i was convinced i would lose him but he seemed so healthy in recent weeks i let myself believe he was going to get better, i was just shocked when the vet wanted to put him to sleep today...i wasnt expecting that at all.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm so sorry for what you're going through right now. He's a gorgeous boy and I can tell how very much you love him. 

Some things spring to mind. If the vet thinks it's a virus, why does he keep giving antibiotics? Antibiotics kill bacteria, not viruses. There are other things we have now to try to interrupt the breeding cycle of viruses, and perhaps he should look in that direction instead. I'm beginning to wonder if the continued use of antibiotics is causing his body to respond negatively, or is weakening his immune system further, and I'm thinking perhaps he's got an auti-immune problem. I wish I had more time to look this up more so I could give you some actual citations, but in a nutshell, obviously there was something wrong to begin with--maybe a virus--and I'm thinking that the use of antibiotics has caused an imbalance in the bacteria in his gut. Too much bad bacteria now has perhaps led to an auto-immune response and that's what continues to linger on and what is causing the swollen lymph nodes. His body now thinks it's infected, and in a sense it would be--by bad gut bacteria that is antibiotic resistant (including candida, which is a fungus). 
Do his ears happen to smell at all yeasty? It's just a thought. 

Anyway, if you haven't been giving him probiotics, give it a try---it's worth a go, I think, and it sure beats having to listen to a vet telling you to pts a cat that still has good quality of life. You're no worse off if you try, and maybe it will help him. I would give him a lot--they've got a hard fight to win to beat back the existing colonies of bacteria. Good luck with him and I do hope the vet is really really wrong.


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

So sorry to hear this news. You seem to be going around in circles with poor Mac. I certainly wouldn't have him put to sleep either, whilst he may not be right he certainly very much has quality of life still! 

I'm not sure if I said at the beginning of this thread that I had a problem with my Karlo. He started walking very quickly on his belly. He was full of gas & his lymph nodes were very enlarged. He had a temperature. He had a very high coronavirus titre. He had ABs & other tablets and seemingly got better. It then happened again, only for him to get better after more abs. He had loads of tests & everything was inconclusive. I had two vets looking after him, but because he was such an unusual case they had discussed with him with probably 5-6 other vets. It got to the point they thought it was FIP but wouldn't treat him for it without doing a biopsy. I was convinced it was too. I reluctantly agreed to a full biopsy. I wasn't keen as it was such an invasive op. To everyone's surprise it turned out he had IBD. He never had dire rear, he had never been sick, he hadn't lost weight. None of the usual symptoms of IBD. I had already two IBD cats so knew the symptoms. Thinking back now I grew two pots of cat grass. Karlo loved it and trashed it. The grass fermented in his tum & caused the gas, which led to his odd walk. That then triggered his IBD. My point is the vets & myself were convinced it was FIP. Despite it really looking that way it certainly wasn't. I'm really hoping for a good outcome still for Mac.

Keep fighting for him, & I will be keeping you both in my thoughts.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I could cheerfully strangle the vet here. Whether it's FIP or not I don't feel they are being at all supportive and would prefer to give up on a cat than explore all possibilities. I've got it in the back of my mind that dry FIP tends to give a very high FCOV titre. Maybe someone else with a less aged mind than mine could come in on that. 

LostSoul, it might or might not be FIP. It might or might not be something else which is untreatable. Whatever it is I honestly don't think anyone could do more than you've done whether they had insurance, bottomless pockets or no spare cash at all.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm finding it so hard to comment now you've said he is scared he's going back to the vet's every time you put your shoes on. After all you've already been through, the pair of you, and not one step closer to any answers. I can't understand vets repeating the same tests over and over like that. 

I know this might sound daft and normally I would never think of suggesting this, but have you thought of going through every detail of every symptom and looking for every possible cause of that symptom, no matter how impossible it seems, even if only one symptom matches the condition write it down anyway? Maybe everyone is missing one tiny vital clue, or being misled by symptoms, it's a long shot but it just might give you a lightbulb moment.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

I would just like to thank every body for all your support...i will not give up fighting for mac all the time he is fighting and when he cant fight any more i will be right there with him...hes my boy and always will be.

You are all such lovely people and i really should be thanking you all individually, im just so very grateful. 

i will keep updating....whatever happens 

clare xxx


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Bless you Clare, whatever happens we are all here for you united in support for you and Mac. I'm so cross and upset on your behalf that nothing seems to have worked and the vets seem clueless. As FH says perhaps now is the time to try and treat Mac for anything and everything that seems plausible.... give things a try and see what happens. 
Me, Dex & Sam have fingers, toes and paws crossed for Mac right now, I agree with the others that there is time to fight while Mac is doing OK and we are all here to help and support you both, 
Much love, Em xx


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Sorry you are going through such a bad time.

I haven't read all the thread yet but will do in a minute.

I had a rescue kitten showing signs of very pale gums, blood count was 25 instead of 50 which it should have been.

Vet suspected blood parasite so we treated with Ronaxan for 10 days, not sure if you have tried this antibiotic but it worked in my case so wanted to share and hopefully it would work with your poorly cat.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Has your vet considered Mycoplasma.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

catcoonz said:


> Has your vet considered Mycoplasma.


I seem to remember Mycoplasma / FIA coming up near the beginning of the thread, but not sure now...


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Yes it was mentioned, Ronaxan cleared this up with my kitten so wasn't sure if the OP's vet had suggested this antibiotic.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Did Mac have a course of doxycycline near the start of his illness?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Yes, you are right, ive only just had time to read the whole thread.

I don't have the answer sadly, I hope Mac does get better soon.


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## mrkidd85 (Mar 5, 2014)

chillminx said:


> LS - he is such a *gorgeous* boy isn't he? Absolutely love him :001_wub::001_wub:
> 
> Maybe your FB contact is referring to the fact Mac appears to have 2 colours in his eyes, i.e. the black pupils and then noticeable green circles around the pupils and a lighter green in the rest of the eye. I have not seen that before (as far as I recall) but it does not necessarily mean there is anything _wrong_ as such.
> 
> ...


Did you have any luck with this?


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

catcoonz said:


> Has your vet considered Mycoplasma.





Shoshannah said:


> I seem to remember Mycoplasma / FIA coming up near the beginning of the thread, but not sure now...


to be honest im not sure either, so many things were tested by the out of hours vet that werent logged and i didnt get copies of results...and my brain has stopped working tonight!



Shoshannah said:


> Did Mac have a course of doxycycline near the start of his illness?


Mac was on ronaxan and destolit at the begining of his illness he was given steroids for a couple of days but was taken off of those when his temperature went up, he was given amox/clav a few weeks later later, he is back on the amox/clav today, his lymph nodes didnt swell up until a week after he started the first medications
Vet said today that if it was hemobartonella mac would have been better after 4 weeks of ronaxan but i was told by a different vet (same clinic) that it could easily take 8 weeks, maybe longer...he did test negative for it but i was also told that doesnt mean anything as it is really hard to diagnose and the vet who looked for it was an out of hours vet who didnt really know what she was looking for, her words, not mine.....ok brain is kicking in a little now...its been a long day 

just wanted to add that Mac has eaten tonight, he seems to be off his wet food hes eaten some, probably about at least a pouch which is the same as my other 2 but isnt as much as he normally eats, he runs for the food and seems to be hungry but doesnt want what im giving him,i opened some dry, he doesnt usually have it and he scoffed it...hes been playing too.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

not a good start to the day...mac wont eat anything except treats...and the specialist i spoke to yesterday rang back, he didnt relaise where i lived, i rang the number for the local one and he answered, it turns out my local one has closed down and all calls were diverted...to swindon!! 

i think ive been on the phone to every vet in my area, i dont know where to turn to next...my mobility problems make it difficult to get any where too far...i had nightmares all night, i saw Mac die at least 20 times in my dreams and i think the relality of how sick he is has hit me today .


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Hugs to you LostSoul I wish there was a word of comfort I could offer.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Not sure if anywhere you haven't tried will come up on this search:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=feline+specialists+kent

There is also the RVC in London, but that might not be accessible to you.

Veterinary Referral London | Queen Mother Animal Hospital | Royal Veterinary College


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Just a thought - is there a vet school within reach who might want to treat him free or at reduced rate because his case is an unusual one? I've no idea if that's even possible but in my innocence I would imagine they had access to every expert under the sun and would want to find answers and treatment.


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## kategod (Feb 13, 2014)

LostSoul, I'm so sorry for what you're going through... it's such a horrible situation to be in. You are doing your very best for Mac and that's all anyone can do.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> Just a thought - is there a vet school within reach who might want to treat him free or at reduced rate because his case is an unusual one? I've no idea if that's even possible but in my innocence I would imagine they had access to every expert under the sun and would want to find answers and treatment.


No vets schools near me, i phoned the local univercity to see if they had anything there and was told no...they advised me the closest one is canterbury (they thought), i did phone the number and left a message when mac first got sick but no one rang me back, i wil lhave to try again.



OrientalSlave said:


> Not sure if anywhere you haven't tried will come up on this search:
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=feline+specialists+kent
> 
> ...


if my disability wasnt so bad i could jump on a train and get him anywhere he needed to go...i just feel useless today,

Macs eaten more dry food and has given himself a good wash and had his pill..he was loving wet food right up until he was sick on tuesday afternoon and has hardly touched it since...ive tried healting it up but he still jus nibbles.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

If I was reading this living within 10 miles of you I'd be offering to take you. I'm a long way away though.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

There are only a handful of Universities running vet schools in the UK, and Kent isn't one of them. 

The closest will be the RVC in London, in England there are also Surrey (Guildford), Bristol, Cambridge, Liverpool and Nottingham. Scotland has them in Glasgow and Edinburgh.


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## EskimoJo (Jan 16, 2014)

ForeverHome said:


> If I was reading this living within 10 miles of you I'd be offering to take you. I'm a long way away though.


Indeed! Or if I could drive... 
I've kept up with this thread but have no experience through which to offer advice. I can only wish you all the best and say my thoughts are with you and Mac. *hugs*


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

well.... Mac update, he's still here but he took a turn for the worse, his breathing became shallow and he had trouble eating...i got him to my old vet because the vet i was seeing didnt think it was urgent,
i saw a vet i hadnt seen for ages and hes lovely, hes a cat person, he examined Mac all over and said in his opinion its lymphosarcoma,he said he has seen it before and mac had exactly the same symtoms...he said he was such a beautiful brave boy and must be fighting so hard 
his lymph nodes all over his body have swollen so much today, he said he can feel swellings his body which are the lymph nodes (not fluid) and thats why his breathing has changed, 
he gave him a shot of steroids and we go back tomorrow, hes going to try to get the biopsy results from the other vet and he had the blood work faxed through tonight, he said it could well be FIP but that nothing much on the bloods pointed to that but that didnt really mean anything because even if it showed he carried the virus doesnt mean he has fip...but that one of my cats might be a carrier so i need them tested if i get another cat, i wont, not ever, i cant keep losing my babies it hurts too much.

The vet said to be honest if mac has deteriorated so badly in 3 days then its not looking good and in his opinion chemotherapy wouldnt really be an option because it is effecting all of his lymph nodes .
but on steroids it could prolong his life for a few months...maybe, 
but also not to give up incase its still an infection but it is doubtfull.
i didnt think i had tears left, ive cried so much over Mac, but i was wrong... i love him so much, he came into my life just 2 weeks after we lost our old cat winnie at 19, i didnt want him....now i dont want to lose him...im broken.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

I'm so sorry, I can feel your pain and helplessness in your posts.... I hope the steroids help him.... sending postive vibes to you and Mac x


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Oh LS I read the beginning of your post and felt relieved that at last you had someone who cared and wanted to help, and then my heart sank for you. This vet sounds so much more realistic and compassionate, actually making an effort for Mac and not to put him through yet another round of the same tests. 

All my love to you both, I wish there was something helpful to say.


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Oh no LS sorry to hear Macs not too good. I wish I was closer to give you both a hug. Hoping the steroids do some good x x


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

(((hugs))) to you and your darling Mac

I have been reading but - like now - have really felt totally lost in being able to offer any advice


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

really sorry - fingers crossed for the steroids to work


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I am so sorry to hear Mac has been struggling today. The vet you saw sounds very kind and caring. I hope the steroids will help Mac. 

I really feel for you, it is such a terrible situation for you to deal with. 

Thinking of you and lovely Mac.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Just checking up on your thread hoping for better news for Mac. So sorry to hear this, I think we all feel your pain and wish there was something we could do to help. I really hope Mac is .doing OK tonight, please give him a kiss from me and the boys xx


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

LostSoul said:


> well.... Mac update, he's still here but he took a turn for the worse, his breathing became shallow and he had trouble eating...i got him to my old vet because the vet i was seeing didnt think it was urgent,
> 
> The vet said to be honest if mac has deteriorated so badly in 3 days then its not looking good and *in his opinion chemotherapy* wouldnt really be an option because it is effecting all of his lymph nodes .
> but on steroids it could prolong his life for a few months...maybe,
> ...


I'm really sorry to hear Mac is having these current problems. Has he been he totally off all medications especially the antibiotics at this point? Did the vet check his PCV as I'm wondering if the anaemia is the problem as it can affect breathing. Any blood tests at all to check for infection?

Frankly, I'm a more than a bit troubled regarding the sweeping statements about the _suspected_ lymphoma and the treatment plan. Currently all this is only speculation. Firstly, you need a _positive_ diagnosis and secondly, unless this vet is an oncologist (which I very much doubt) one needs *if* it's confirmed to be consulted regarding treatment protocols. These usually work in referral centres, where vets can contact them or refer if appropriate. Incidentally, lymphoma is one of the more treatable cancers if it comes to this.

At this point, *since after all this time none of the vets appear to know what's going on you need to insist they consult a with a specialist themselves now*. Referrals have to be made through a GP vet-clients can't do this independently. If they refuse, then go elsewhere.

My heart goes out to you and Mac - I can't imagine all these endless vet visits are doing him any good at all. I'm becoming very cross on your behalf at this point. This has gone on far too long! Without a proper diagnosis valuable treatment time is being wasted.

ETA I've just read your other post where the PCV was within normal limits so breathing unlikely to be related to anaemia.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hugs.


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## kategod (Feb 13, 2014)

Yes, lots of hugs - thinking of you and Mac all the time - you have done so well with him and fought so hard for his best interests - it must be so difficult to know what is the right decision for him. I so wish I could do/say something to make the situation better - but you have been absolutely heroic right from the beginning of Mac's illness, trying to find a diagnosis and do the best for him - it's just so frustrating that you still don't have a definite answer. But Mac will be hugely comforted I'm sure, knowing that you are there doing all you can...


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

I'm so sorry that you and Mac are still going through all of this. I wish that there was something which I could say to help or comfort you.

Thinking of you and Mac and sending healing vibes and the most enormous ((((( Hugs )))))


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Ianthi said:


> I'm really sorry to hear Mac is having these current problems. Has he been he totally off all medications especially the antibiotics at this point? Did the vet check his PCV as I'm wondering if the anaemia is the problem as it can affect breathing. Any blood tests at all to check for infection?
> 
> Frankly, I'm a more than a bit troubled regarding the sweeping statements about the _suspected_ lymphoma and the treatment plan. Currently all this is only speculation. Firstly, you need a _positive_ diagnosis and secondly, unless this vet is an oncologist (which I very much doubt) one needs *if* it's confirmed to be consulted regarding treatment protocols. These usually work in referral centres, where vets can contact them or refer if appropriate. Incidentally, lymphoma is one of the more treatable cancers if it comes to this.
> 
> ...


I know what i should do but to be honest i really dont think mac will be seeing anoncologist, i just cant afford it...the closest referal centre has closed down, i know there will be others so i will look into it but i just dont know...
The vet i saw yesterday was my vet for years i just havent seen him for a long time, he treated my old cat who had spondylosis and during that time he would tell me about his cats lymphoma, she had radiotherapy and chemo and still died 8 months later,
Right now Mac has deteriorated so much i personally think hes too weak...please believe me im not giving up on him, i know it sounds like i am but i just want his last days to be full of love and for him not to be petrified but i dont want to feel like i could have done more for him.

i go back to the vets at 4 so i'll see what they say then, i guess the more nodes they find cancer in the worse it is...does anyone have experience of chemo working? how long for?


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

LostSoul said:


> please believe me im not giving up on him, i know it sounds like i am but i just want his last days to be full of love and for him not to be petrified but i dont want to feel like i could have done more for him.


Hun, nobody thinks you're giving up on Mac, we know you want what's best for him. Only you know him and can make the decision as to when enough's enough. We will support you and try and help for as long as you feel there's more than can be done, and when the day comes for his last days to be full of love not petrified at the vets then we will support you through that too.

Quality of life, that's what matters. How a cat handles treatment is part of his quality of life, and it's a factor to take into account. Nobody else but you can judge the point when prolonging your companion's life is no longer viable in terms of his quality of life. You are fighting so hard to find out what's wrong and have the best care for Mac. Nobody could accuse you of giving up.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

Never in a million years could you ever be accused of giving up on Mac. I really don't know how you've endured all you've had to go through. If anyone is 'giving up' it's the vets! I have to say I'm absolutely furious (and most people here can verify I'm normally very calm!) about the way things have panned out. This has been going on for *nearly three months* and you still have *no clear diagnosis*!! Furthermore Mac has deteriorated-I'm very sorry to hear this. This is utterly shameful. A specialist should have been consulted with ages ago when the vets-who're clearly out of their depth here - were at an impasse. I may be wrong but you've never been given the option of a referral?

Mac doesn't need to be referred. Your vet can confer with a veterinary oncologist if needs be. Most are happy to do this. I know where there's good one. While each case is individual, generally cats do respond very well (owing to smaller doses they don't experience the side-effects humans do) and it's one of the more treatable cancers with lots going into remission. I've seen this first hand. My view is how can you possibly know unless you try? I've no idea where it's suspected in Mac's case but at a (wild) guess I'm wondering about mediastinal or multicentric? I really don't know, *if* in fact it's this at all. At this point I'm not convinced. May well be an infection.

How is Mac today?


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Mac isnt good today, hes hardly eating and his breathing is still laboured, he has just sat all morning looking out of the window, 
i guess im trying to convince myself that im not giving up on him..i feel awful,i just cant afford chemo and quite honestly unless he improves i dont think hes strong enough to go through it...but that just leaves me with one option...and right now he isnt ready for that either.
i dont know what to do...i know chemo would be his only chance (if the biopsy comes back positive) but i ..i just dont know.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

Sorry I missed that about the biopsy. Was this a full thickness of a fine needle one? When are the results expected? Has Mac ever had an X-ray? I've been really busy recently and hardly around here. I appreciate you're in a terrible position and my heart goes out to you. I still think this requires the input of a specialist, regardless though.

I'm keeping my fingers cross for you both. Hopefully Mac will pick up.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

i spoke to my vet this morning, the results arent back yet but should be back by my appointment later...they did another needle biopsy, i didnt see the first one but i saw this one and they did get a full needle full of cells (or so it looked to me) from one of the new nodes in the back of his legs, they did one of his neck nodes too, i asked where the closest place is that does chemo he told me my local vets now referal center does...no they dont they closed down 2 weeks ago. 
They did an xray when mac first got sick, it didnt show much except his liver was a bit swollen thats what they said was causing the jaundice and that he had no internal bleeds or damage, he didnt any enlarged lymph nodes then...the vet is going on his own experience and seeing other cats with the same disease, he was pretty convinced the results will be positive. He said it is unusal for a cat who isnt felv to get it but not impossible, especially seeing as mac had such a bad start his immune system is definitely compromised...
I guess its another wait and see day, they said his body is being completely flooded with white cells but they are not fighting anything, just making him weaker...right now, how he is today i wouldnt even let them sedate him for an xray, hes weak, he seems to have no fight left in him...i just dont know how to help him.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

So sorry you are going through this LS - I know exactly how you feel, as this was me last year.

Rowan had a very high temperature, very high white cell count, was off his food, although I could tell he was hungry and wanted to eat, he couldnt bring himself to eat more than a few mouthfuls. I got white fish portions in the end, which he seemed to manage to eat more of than anything else.

All his tests also came back negative, they too were convinced it was an infection. Every lymph node in his body then swelled, and they told me it was lymphoma.

Rowan did get referred to specialist centre, and had a full node removed after all the needle biopsies were clear. Still no sign of cancer.

They started him on steroids and chemotherapy. Today he is off all meds and back to his normal self.

He had/has a very rare auto-immune disease. The meds damped his immune system right down, and he was then weaned off them very slowly. He came off all meds a few days before Christmas - so its a long treatment plan.

He had no side effects from the chemo - he had one tablet every other day - you just have to remember to wear rubber gloves when handling them. Along with the chemo he was on 2 steroids every day. He had to have a blood test fortnightly, then monthly, to make sure his white cell count didnt go too low, and eventually came off all drugs and so far has been fine. I have been told it could flare up again (being auto-immune), but it might not ever flare up again at all.

Rowan was at N.D.S.R. North Downs Specialist Referrals - Home Page

I dont know if they can do this, but if your vet was able to ring them, I am happy to give permission for them to compare Macs results etc with whatever they have on record for Rowan, as they sound very similar in their symptoms etc. Or even my own vets that consulted closely with NDSR, after they discharged him (he stayed there a week).

I dont know if they would be allowed to do that (I am sure Ianthi would know).

If you do get him on chemo, it cost me £150 for 25 tablets. That lasted 50 days. As they weaned him off slowly, the bottle lasted longer - I think I got 4 lots for him in total, although it may have been 3 lots - I still have some in the fridge, so he didnt finish the last bottle.

So sorry you are going through this - I wouldnt wish it on anyone xxxx

Edited to add: Most vets don't keep the chemo tablets in stock, but they can order them in for you when you run low - thats what my vets did for me.

Edited again to add: Rowan was also very ill and very weak (I thought he had gone in the night the day I woke up to take him to the referral centre) but he was sedated the next day for a CT scan, his full biospy and to have a feeding tube inserted, and then again the next day for a heart scan.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Im just sorry I have no advise left to give, this is out of my depth and hugs to you for not giving up on Mac.

As others have said, only you know how Mac is and if you carry on, we will all be here to support you in what decision you make.

If and when the sad time comes, you will question yourself of what if I did this or that, we all do it, even me, I knew my girl was near the end, its not easy, you will feel guilty and blame yourself at first, then along comes the anger, I do agree your vet is useless, but you will get support here and know we are all thinking of you and Mac.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

i guess i need to wait for his results before i know whats wrong...but something is very wrong today 
i just had a workman here and mac didnt move, just stayed laid where he was, he would usually have either gone to the hidey hole on top of the wardrobe where he thinks no one can see him or have gone behind the sofa where he likes to stash his toys...but he just laid on the floor and refused to move until i moved him...i dont know if this is cancer or what it is but i hate it, the vet yesterday thought if it was FIP then he might have caught the virus from one of my cats, that made me feel great! but that whatever virus this is (if its not cancer) it is killing him and the vet didnt have a clue why, he said the AB's would help if there was some underlying bacterial infection but they arent. He said it could have easily been 2 different conditions, hemobartonella could have been dormant until the lymphoma kicked in, the swollen liver could have been the start of everything....and the anemia although it did improve and everything else has taken its toll on his bone marrow...but again thats just his opinion.
i honestly thought chemo cost thousands, i know someone whos just paid $7,000 for treatment for a type of lymphoma and the cat had it in just one place, i know thats dollars but i expected it to be a similar amount,

if the results are positive and he gets stronger i will definitely go for it if i can afford it...but the way he is right now im not sure my boy has many days left  i dont want him to suffer but i dont want him to go too soon .


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

McWillow-I'm sooo glad you posted because these two cases are so remarkably similar - Rowan's history has crossed my mind on numerous occasions. I'm glad to hear he's so much better, by the way.  There's every chance IMO, Mac's case is also auto-immune in nature.

Lostsoul - I would relay all the information here to your vets today. In fact, if McWillow didn't mind I would print off the post and show it to him. Yes, they can ring them-vets do this all the time- and discuss the case. Referring back to past cases is the norm. Actually the oncologist I referred to earlier works here as well.

I think at this point it's the only option if we're to salvage anything from this truly sorry mess, while there's still time. It's worth a shot. Mac is only a young cat, after all.

I wish you all the best with the visit today and the biopsy results.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Rowan had no positive results for anything. Every single result was negative, every infection they could think of testing him for - negative. He was on lots of different ABs because his symptoms still looked to be infection - no change.

They went with the chemo and steroids because there was nothing left to test for, nothing else it could be. Steroids on their own weren't strong enough to damp down the huge response his immume system had gone into, which is why they tried the chemo in conjunction - and that was what worked.

I thought I was losing my Rowan too, he was the same as Mac - he didn't move when he normally would have done, he wanted to eat but couldn't - it was heartbreaking.

As I say, I thought he died in the night, when I got up to take him to the referral centre. He was laying sprawled on his side in a postion he never layed in, and didnt even lift his head, when I knelt down next to him. I stroked his head, crying my eyes out, and he opened his eyes and looked at me.

Don't give up hope xx

Edited to Add: I am more than happy for anything to be printed and discussed with your vet, if your vet wants the name of my vet I can PM all the details to you, and if you want to talk to me I am more than happy to give you my phone number, anything I can do to help.

This is Rowans thread from last year - its _very_ long, but there might be something in there you want to print off, or discuss with your vet if it looks similar to Macs symptoms.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/291181-rowans-not-well.html


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

MCWillow said:


> ..
> Don't give up hope xx


Exactly. Lostsoul-listen to McWillow,she's been through this and came out the other side!  So all is not lost, yet. Good luck.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

i wont give up hope..im just a bit freaked out by it all today, i tend to get a bit over emotional, especially when it comes to my cats and i havent slept or eaten for 2 day, i think my brain is protesting 
My husband loves our cats as much as i do but hes very logical...he just says we'll cry when he's gone and do whatever we can for him before then but that i shouldnt keep my hopes up, he thinks its better to think the worst and then you wont be disappointed, just the way he was brought up i guess,where i keep swaying between being convinced hes dying to thinking, praying that the vet is wrong...but most of my tears are from frustration and from feeling so completely useless.

Thank you all so very much,
i have printed that off and depending on the results i will show it to my vet tonight, i just gave Mac a huge cuddle and asked him to eat, he jumped straight down and ate a whole pouch of food, ive just put him some chicken in the oven and hes sniffing around so hopefully he'll eat some of that too, hes just so tired and quiet which isnt like him at all....theres a definite change to the size of one node today, yesterday it was so big it was pushing up into his face and almost pushing his eye closed today it isnt, now whether thats the antibiotics or the steroids i guess theres no way of knowing...

i just added it up, over the last 10 weeks Mac has seen, 9 different vets in total, at 3 clinincs..


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Good news about the swelling going down. That's positive along with him eating some wet food given he's been off it these few days. Hope he's had some chicken by now as well. Hope you do better at the vets tonight as well x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

so....after a 40 minute wait i get to see the nice vet, Macs biopsy result was inconclusive !!!!
it said it showed reactive tissue ..im sure they said reactive...or maybe active,
the lab said although the biopsy didnt show cancer cells that cancer cannot be ruled out, so they advise a tissue biopsy,
I said i didnt think mac was strong enough to be knocked out just yet and the vet agreed, the vet also agreed that there seems to be a difference in his neck nodes today, his heart is sounding fine but his breathing still isnt quite right, he's also a little paler than they like but ive lost count of the times recently ive been told hes pale but his pcv was normal...he will need his pvc done soon but they didnt want to pull him around too much today. i explained how much hes eaten today which isnt much but he did have a little chicken earlier as well as some wet food and the vet said as long as hes eating some thats ok,he's not dehydrated, i always give him water in a syringe when he has his pills just to make sure because i never see him drink,
He's got steroid pills and will go back on wednesday to talk about the tissue biopsy...unless i need to take him back before, im praying hard that i wont, i just want him how he was last week, he was poorly but still very active and eating everything in sight.
They talked about FIP again, saying its still very much an option....his temperature is still pretty much the same its 39.5, and it was 39.6. Its only the temperature which is making them think FIP, the notes say it is unresponsive but it was normal for a while while he was on the meds...so doesnt that mean it did respond?

I showed the information about the immune disease and they agreed it sounded like it could be that but said they wouldnt do chemo at that surgery but if he needs it i will find a surgery that does it. 

so another day, another vet trip and still more questions than answers. He was exhausted when we came home but he sniffed around for food. he didnt eat any though  he is definitely hungry, he's sound asleep on the back of the sofa behind me now, hes been asleep for about an hour, he never usually sleeps soundly but ive just moved him and he didnt care...i keep poking him to make sure hes still breathing ....


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

LostSoul, maybe if you get Mac's history printed from the vet, as I know its a lot to take in, then Ianthi could have a look for you.

Ianthi is always the first person I ask for advise on any medical issues I have with my own cats and the knowledge Ianthi has is great.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

catcoonz said:


> LostSoul, maybe if you get Mac's history printed from the vet, as I know its a lot to take in, then Ianthi could have a look for you.
> 
> Ianthi is always the first person I ask for advise on any medical issues I have with my own cats and the knowledge Ianthi has is great.


i do need to try to gather up all macs history, its scattered around between different vets and most of the innitial tests werent logged at all, i have some results written down from the first vet but no copies of blood results or anything, just what ive written when ive been told the result, i asked the vet on wednesday for macs blood results and was refused...my vet today said they had a summary of things but not proper notes or results (i asked for the blood results again) ...it makes me sound like a complete idiot for not getting it sorted out.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

You are not an idiot, I forgot to ask my vet for paperwork, so you are not the first and certainly wont be the last. xxxx


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> They went with the chemo and steroids because there was nothing left to test for, nothing else it could be. Steroids on their own weren't strong enough to damp down the huge response his immume system had gone into, which is why they tried the chemo in conjunction - and that was what worked.


I take a low dose of a Chemo drug every day (in conjunction with other drugs & steroids periodically) to control my auto-immune diseases

Would say this could certainly be worth a shot if nothing else's working


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Macs been eating a little bit more but he's still not right at all...i think his anemia is coming back,hes very pale, i phoned the vet and they explained the steroids are the only thing that can help really...

ive been in touch with a lady on facebook whos cat had the same symptoms as mac which started in september, exactly the same starting with jaundice and anemia and then the temperature and lymph nodes, she too was told dry fip or lymphosarcoma and has spent the entire insurance limit and extra on trying to find whats wrong...as the months went on they decided fip wouldnt last that long so did liver and kidney biopsies as well as lymph node removal...last week she told me her cat was off of her food suddenly and was very pale again just like Mac is now and today she informed that the day after her last message she lost her cat, she has been given the results of why she died, it was FIP so it is very possible mac has it, in my mind i thought because hes still here 10 weeks after getting sick he couldnt possibly have it. I guess i was wrong.
my husband is debating if it the right thing to put mac through a tissue biopsy, seeing as if its positive theres nothing we can do....but what if its negative!
i wont do it until i think hes strong enough and i know he isnt strong enough yet...i spoke to a referal/specialist centre in maidstone which i believe is the closest one to me, im not sure how they can get away with the prices but they said it is around £500 for the referal, then £195 for a first appointment,then they would decide if they would take Mac on, im not sure i can afford this ...i explained everything and they said if he is anemic he would need a transfusion before they started anything else and they dont have many donor cats right now and i dont what macs blood type is so they couldnt check if they had any blood anyway...they told me sadly it sounds more like fip than an immune disease and that it has been known for cats with dry FIPto live for months,even up to a year with it. 
I tried to explain that the blood tests initially showed it shouldnt be that but they said with fip it mutates so much that in almost every cat the results would be different...

im not giving up yet but unless he gets worse today im not rushing him to the emergency vet, he has eaten some so thats one less worry.

eidted to add hes just eaten a whole pouch, thats almost 2 pouches so far today


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## denflo (Apr 29, 2011)

LS, I'm sorry, I can't offer any advice to you, but I just wanted to say that along with everyone else here, I am thinking of you and Mac and hoping with all my heart that you can get to the bottom of this very soon and he can make a full recovery. I can't imagine what you are going through, but we are keeping everything possible crossed here for you.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I can only echo Denflo :sad:
Good to hear he has an appetite


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

How's poor Mac today????? x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Cazzer said:


> How's poor Mac today????? x


hes eating more today and seems a bit perkier, hes actually played a little but he is very pale both gums and nose, ive spoken to a vet and they said to try not to worry as he has been very pale before and has had a very low pcv and was still able to function ,his next appointment is wednesday unless something drastic happens before then but he wont be having the tissue biopsy done then unless he makes a lot of improvement., hes getting so scared of the vet it takes days for him to get over a visit so i dont want to take him unless i have to. I just want him as happy and stress free as possible. 
if the anemia is back to be honest the only treatment is steroids (apparently??) or a transfussion and they dont do transfusions...but there isnt much point unless they find out why its happening, 
if he isnt making red cells anymore then i dont think there is much anyone can do...if hes making a few we can hope the steroids help but we still need to find out why, i dont what is more likely to cause anemia, cancer or FIP 
His breathing is better, not perfect but better and his lymph nodes are about half the size they were so either the steroids or antibiotics are working...but theres this look in his eye, he looks sick, he never really looked ill before 
but for now hes still fighting and im not giving up on him, ( i keep telling myself that, i need to start believing it) if these are his last days i dont want him scared and hiding, i want him to know we love him...


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

best wishes and gentle hugs for him xx keep fighting boy xx


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

That seemed like such a positive post until the end. Topping up the vibes for poor Mac. He is such a fighter, bless him.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

LostSoul said:


> .he wont be having the tissue biopsy done then unless he makes a lot of improvement., hes getting so scared of the vet it takes days for him to get over a visit so i dont want to take him unless i have to..


Mac will need to the completely OFF steroids for a while before undergoing a biopsy. Otherwise they invalidate the results. In addition the vet may decide not to go ahead with it if his response to treatment is good. Incidentally, if the breathing problem commenced after he started the steroids then it _might _be due to them. He's also on antibiotics?



LostSoul said:


> s.
> .They talked about FIP again, saying its still very much an option....his temperature is still pretty much the same its 39.5, and it was 39.6. Its only the temperature which is making them think FIP, the notes say it is *unresponsive* but it was normal for a while while he was on the meds...so doesnt that *mean it did respond?* ....


Yes, at least at that point in time so strictly speaking this entry isn't true. I think it's very important to point out this error in the notes to them. It may have gotten overlooked owing to all the vet changes.



LostSoul said:


> .
> i wont do it until i think hes strong enough and i know he isnt strong enough yet...i spoke to a referal/specialist centre in maidstone which i believe is the closest one to me, im not sure how they can get away with the prices but they said it is around £500 for the referal, then £195 for a first appointment,then they would decide if they would take Mac on, im not sure i can afford this ...i .


Have you specifically requested your own vet to consult with a specialist? The one McWillow suggested? This way the above charges won't apply. I would emphasise your determination to get to the bottom of the problem. In addition they have (or should have) all the clinical information required to discuss the case in detail. It's pointless approaching them as a client.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

ok, i didnt know that about ther steroids and they didnt mention this, he only started on the steroids on thursday night and i was told he would need the biopsy when i saw the vet again on friday...he's not having done at the moment anyway but depending on how things go i will keep this in mind.

the vet is saying his temperature hasnt responded, i thought it did because a few times over the last 10 weeks it has been normal, including 2 weeks ago when they stopped all his meds...but the vet says it went high again without antibiotics so thats unresponsive...  i will definitely remind them on wednesday when i go back.

i printed out mcwillows post and showed my vet...and the old vet im back seeing now, both agreed it was a possibily but not likely to be an immune problem, neither seemed interested in contacting the specialist at all....i was in such a state i didnt push it as much as i should have, i was slightly hysterical  i dont understand why its so hard to find a vet willing to go that extra step

Just to add, Macs lymph nodes are half the size they were, he has a nice pink nose and he has his appetite back, hes just run to me for some chicken!! hes still quieter than normal though but did play last night before bed time...i woke up this morning to find him sleeping on the bottom of my bed and not hiding.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Very pleased to hear Mac is brighter today & eating well, bless him. :thumbup1: I very much hope the progress is maintained LS 

Very good advice from Ianthi.  I would think about pressing the vet to contact a specialist e.g. the one McWillow used.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

i will be more focused on wednesday so will definitely push for it, i lost the plot at the vets my last few visits, mac wasnt breathing properly and i freaked and left my logical head at home...
im not sure whats happened to Mac today, he's not as playful as usual, no where near, hes alert but not playful...but he has eaten everything ive given and ive given him a lot, he just keeps eating and asking for more...and his lymph nodes are a lot smaller, i guess its the steroids as they didnt go down that much with the amox/clav last time ..but they did go down a little.
i know it doesnt mean hes not sick but at least for now he seems more comfortable, he can move his head without his neck hurting and i can actually give him chin rubs without hurting him.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Just want to send you some big hugs.....

Rowans lymph nodes only went down when he was on the steroids, as the steroids started telling his immune system it was being silly attacking itself. His disorder was very aggressive which is why it took the chemo as well to tell his immune system that everything was OK and his antibodies could back off - then his temp came down, his appetite came back, and he started feeling better.

I had lots and ups and downs with Rowan - it was one thing, then another, then it might be something else, that was already tested negative for, but then it might not - and his temp was the main thing they went on, because his high temp with high white cell count said it_ must_ be infection - auto-immune disorders _don't_ cause high temps! Well Rowan proved them wrong!

Will your vets not even _ring_ NDSR and ask to talk to someone about Mac, and refer them to looking at Rowans notes?

Like I said - Rowans case was the first they had seen of his disorder - he was an enigma, as his symptoms pointed to so many other things, and _away_ from auto-immune disorders.

I'm not saying Mac has what Rowan has, not at all, but it seems to me, your vets need to open their minds (and their egos) and look outside the box.

I hope you get answers soon, and some relief for Mac x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> Just want to send you some big hugs.....
> 
> Rowans lymph nodes only went down when he was on the steroids, as the steroids started telling his immune system it was being silly attacking itself. His disorder was very aggressive which is why it took the chemo as well to tell his immune system that everything was OK and his antibodies could back off - then his temp came down, his appetite came back, and he started feeling better.
> 
> ...


neither vet clinic seems to want to contact any one, although i do know they have been talking to each other...i was told it could possibly be a kind of immune disease but is unlikely due to the anemia, jaundice and high liver levels at the start and the constant highs and lows of his pcv, also mac has never had any abscesses which they say is common....they did agree that the temp and lymph nodes could be a sign though but as soon as they came to a conclusion of either fip or lymphosarcoma they just seem to tightened together instead of trying to help more....normally i would have thought it was because they wanted me to keep paying them but they dont even seem to want me to make appointments anymore ..i'll see what they say tomorrow...and macs lymph nodes are bigger again today 

also ...i was told that seeing as this is possibly FIP never to get another cat while my 2 girls are alive because Mac could have got sick because of one of them..the thought of getting another cat is unbearable but i cant ever rule it out and My youngest girl is only 4, they have never been sick, Mac on the other hand has been back and forth to the vet even before this illness with terrible bad breath, panting and itchy ears...has any one else been told this?.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

I am getting very frustrated with those vets so God knows how you must be feeling.

Jaundice and anemia I dont have any experience of, Rowans liver levels got higher when he wasn't eating much, which my vet told me was to be expected.

He also never had any abscesses. They did suspect an abscess when his first lymph node first swelled, as they felt it more in his throat, before it was obvious on the side/back of his neck. It was after a few days it showed on the 'outside', and then another couple of days before the other side also swelled. They couldnt feel any of the others swollen, but a couple of days later when he had his CT scan they could see every single node in his body was swollen.

Cats are creatures, they are not robots, and they will all react and develop things in different ways, just like we do!


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Well todays vet visit was eventful...ive gone back to my old vet and they dont have a proper copy of his blood results, they contacted the other vet who said they have faxed it but they havent and they point blank refuse to give them to me...i went there and argued this morning and they threatened to ban me...

on the plus side, Mac isn't dehydrated, his appetite and energy levels are through the roof, his temperature is down just a tiny bit, its 39.3 now last week it was 39.6 so basically thats no different but his lymph nodes are smaller than ever and his breathing has returned to normal and his pcv is within normal levels, his gums are nice and pink tody, 
instead of hiding half inside my jacket he stood and faced the vet for the first time ever the vet saw my feisty boy and not my scaredy cat...we are sticking with the steroids and antibiotics at the moment , the vet said he doesnt know if its FIP,lymphoma or what it is but it seems like an infection that Mac isnt recovering from, i guess its like one person dying of the flu when hundreds dont...only time will tell what happens but today is a really good day.

neither vet feels they need to contact any one else but on my way out after macs appointment i bumped into one of the nurses, who is my mother-in-laws ex neighbour,i didnt know she worked there, i explained to her what was happening and she said she will send off an email and see what they say but it might take her afew days to get back to me...well thats better than nothing,


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

am glad you and Mac are having a good day  xx


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Sounds more positive for you and Mac today.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

LostSoul said:


> Well todays vet visit was eventful...ive gone back to my old vet and they dont have a proper copy of his blood results, they contacted the other vet who said they have faxed it but they havent and they point blank refuse to give them to me...i went there and argued this morning and they threatened to ban me...


I don't understand this  They are *your *test results and you have paid for them - surely you are permitted a copy by law 

Really pleased to hear you are having a positive day :thumbup1:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> They are your test results and you have paid for them - surely you are permitted a copy by law


Yes. I'm getting boring now, if all else fails, Subject Access Request


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Good news about Mac. Can't post much as have to go out but

13. Clinical and client records - RCVS


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

havoc said:


> Yes. I'm getting boring now, if all else fails, *Subject Access Request*


*delurks*

I was going to suggest the very same thing. If you do, make sure you request literally everything - all test results, correspondence, internal and e-mails, all vet notes, receptionist notes, itemised bills, any recorded phone conversations etc. You're entitled to that by law, and they really are taking the mickey. Quite honestly, if any vet threatened to ban me from their practice because I wanted a copy of the test results in order to do the best for my animals, especially after I'd spent large wedges of cash with them for three months, then unless they were absolutely my only option at all they'd never see me again, _and_ I'd be hitting them with a SAR so comprehensive they'd need a van to deliver the information package 

Information on making an SAR here: Find out how to request your personal information | ICO
I'd suggest sending it by recorded and sined for delivery, too, so they can't conveniently claim it never arrived...

*hugs* I really hope you manage to get some proper answers soon. So glad Mac is feeling more like himself today


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## korrok (Sep 4, 2013)

Yeah seriously I'd be telling them that if they won't give me my results that I PAID FOR they can damn well give me my money back.

Filing via the Data Protection Act is your best bet to get their arses in gear because they literally cannot refuse it.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

AFAIK you are entitled to any copies of records, test results etc.

I certainly wouldn't have a problem with giving them out and have done in the past. 

Hugs for Mac xxx


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Your vets (both lots) are being totally unreasonable.

I had a full itemised list from NDSR when Rowan was there telling me exactly what I had been charged for, even down to the amount of food he had had that day, and each nights stay listed seperately, with the date and cost of that night.

I had all the test results given to me, and a copy of the diagnosis letter they sent to my own vets.

My own vets gave me every single result they got for him (before and after he went to NDSR), and a fully itemised list of charges for each bill I paid.

My vets even rang me each time they consulted with NDSR, to let me who they had spoken to, and what had been discussed - even if I didnt know beforehand that they were going to be talking to anyone there.

I am glad Mac is seems to be getting a bit more back to normal x


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

LostSoul said:


> *neither vet clinic seems to want to contact any one*, although i do know they have been talking to each other...i was told it could possibly be a kind of immune disease but is unlikely due to the anemia, jaundice and high liver levels at the start and the constant highs and .?.


Of course at this point they may well be just waiting to see how he fares out with the steroids but this is the part I find very concerning. You really need a vet who's clearly committed to finding the cause(s) of all of this. Indeed it's perfectly possible Mac had/has a few things going on which might explain the bizarre array of presenting symptoms. None of the vets you've consulted appear to be able to, or indeed appear to want to provide any clear answers - yet they're reluctant to move this further up the chain.

Mind you if they're unable to readily source/keep losing relevant test results, have errors in the notes, I can't image any referral practice being very impressed with their efforts so far though!  It all sounds a bit chaotic to me.

I'd like to know on what grounds they refused you the clinical notes. An alternative route would be to request them from the other practice as copies are always forwarded on when a client changes vets. You're entitled to all the previous ones as well. You could also if necessary submit a complaint to the RCVS if they fail to materialise.

Glad to hear he's responding well at the moment.

.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'd be hitting them with a SAR so comprehensive they'd need a van to deliver the information package


Oh yes! It's what I did when a new receptionist told me I'd have to pay for a photocopy (in the region of £2.50 or £3 for one sheet). I wrote out the SAR there and then and handed it across the counter with a £10 note for which I demanded a receipt. I'd been with them for years so if I was going to be paying for copies I was damn well getting my money's worth :lol:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'd like to know on what grounds they refused you the clinical notes


The most common reason is ignorance of the law.


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

Oh I can't believe you're having to go through this now as well 

I recently took Ben to a new vet and had no problem whatsoever getting copies of his records from the previous one. 

Did they give you a reason or do you think its because they've been poor on record keeping?

Glad he was feeling better yesterday!


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Jannor said:


> Did they give you a reason or do you think its because they've been poor on record keeping?


Ah yes, good point


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

no, they havent given me a reason for not giving me the results,just some nonsense about their policy, the vet was pointing things out to me on his computer screen saying he was showing me what it showed but his computer was the other side of the room and i could barely make out a word...to be honest i think its down to 2 things, one they agreed to a payment scheme and i owe them...not much and it will be paid next week but maybe they think i will take the results and not go back to pay,mind you i might not pay for the blood test, how do i know it was done if they dont prove it!...or 2 they didnt do the test properly, when i phoned to find out if the results were there the receptionist said some were but some needed to be redone..when i saw the vet he said they showed fip and basically said sorry and goodbye.
they dont think they need to consult with anyone because Mac has classic symptoms of fip or lymphoma..he does but its already been proved he doesnt have some of the things he has classic symptoms for. I guess they think they know everything..if i'd just insured Mac or if my bank account was bigger i wouldnt have to worry...

on the plus side Mac is so much better...he's eating, playing and acting completely normally and his lymph nodes are just bumps now...i can feel them but you have to feel for them, i cant see them.

its very blurry but you can see the huge swelling his neck and that was the same both sides., 
this was last wednesday








Mac today, hes not showing his neck, just enjoying laying in a box


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> no, they havent given me a reason for not giving me the results,just some nonsense about their policy


You must SAR. Their 'policy' is unlawful.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

LostSoul said:


> on the plus side Mac is so much better...he's eating, playing and acting completely normally and his lymph nodes are just bumps now...i can feel them but you have to feel for them, i cant see them.
> 
> its very blurry but you can see the huge swelling his neck and that was the same both sides.,
> this was last wednesday
> ...


Sounds positive but how is Mac doing now LS?


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> Sounds positive but how is Mac doing now LS?


Mac is doing just fine...hes back to his normal playful self, the only difference is the amount he drinks but that will be the steroids, his lymph nodes are still swollen but they are so much smaller than they were before which must make him a lot more comfortable...we're back to the vet on wednesday and will be going to the other one about the blood results so fingers crossed i get some answers.


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## Mozzie (Jan 29, 2014)

.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

just a quick update, i didnt get the blood test results again so i refused to pay, i saw my old vet again today who is surprised at how well Mac looks seeing as his illness is now in its 11th week, no sign of his jaundice or anemia, he's eating well, playing well, his weight is stable, his temp is down a tiny bit but its still high at 39.2 and although his lymph nodes are enlarged they are tiny compared to how they were 2 weeks ago.
so we're sticking with the steroids and antibiotics for now and in 2 weeks if he stays stable he will have xrays and bloods done, the vet doesnt want to stress him out too much yet seeing as just 2 weeks ago he was so weak and poorly...the nurse who sent the email to the specialist said that the reply was just them saying unfortunately they couldnt comment on previous cases without written permission and without Macs notes and test results they didnt have enough to go on to make a guess diagnosis but they advised a felv retest and a needle biopsy of the liver to test for FIP as it needs to be an organ biopsy, Im really not sure about doing that....they also suggested that FIP can be brought on by stress and could possibly be a different illness from the original anemia and jaundice...but right now Mac is doing well.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Very pleased to hear Mac is continuing to do so well!:thumbup1: This is very encouraging news LS.

It is true that biopsy of liver or kidneys can identify FIP lesions but studies have shown that "false-negative results and inadequate sampling occurs with moderate frequency especially for immunochemical analysis".

Sensitivity of Tru-cut and fine needle aspir... [Vet Clin Pathol. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Glad to hear the boy is doing well! Long may it continue!


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

I thought i would do a quick update, Mac is still fighting this thing..whatever this thing is, he still has a slight temp but at 39.2 its lower than it has been for a while, his lymph nodes have reduced in size a massive amount since he started the steroids, they're still bigger than normal and hes put on so much weight ive been told to put him on a diet, he now weighs 5.1kg....i guess ive been spoiling him a little too much 
He was due an xray today and new blood work but there was a dog fight in the waiting room and by the time Mac was seen he was petrified so the vet didnt want to stress him out even more so he just gave him a once over and we rebooked the tests for 2 weeks time, the vet didnt think 2 weeks will make much difference to what they find..if anything, hes still on the antibiotics but his steroids have been reduced to just half a day, the vet says too many steroids arent good for him but if he needs them then i have enough to up his dosage again, hopefully his lymph nodes dont swell up like they did before...i will be watching like a hawk!
to be honest the vets still think hes dying of something...but right now Mac is good and proving them wrong again and again.

Mr Mac Fluffy after his visit to the vets








and some facebook videos of him today, they are public so hopefully they can be seen

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=642194832531508&set=vb.100002229919970&type=2&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=642212315863093&set=vb.100002229919970&type=2&theater


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Thank you for the update LS. The news is encouraging isn't it? As you say, Mac is fighting it, whatever "it" is. 

Great Mac is eating well and has put on some weight. 5.1 kg doesn't sound an awful lot to me. 2 of my adult boys each weigh 
6 kgs and even my 10 mth old female kitten weighs nearly 5 kg!  So unless he is losing his waistline I wouldn't worry. 

If you're going to put him on a diet, just very gradually reduce the size of his meals, so he loses a small amount of weight, no more than about 30 grams a week. 

Fingers crossed the x-ray goes ahead OK in 2 weeks time.


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## Linda L (Aug 30, 2013)

I am also sorry to hear about Max. I'am a first time cat owner so I can't help either but if Max does not seem to be in pain, eating and drinking water I would bring him home like you want to do and then get your thoughts in order and try to find another vet. Good luck.


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## slartibartfast (Dec 28, 2013)

Keep fighting, brave boy! Best wishes and furry kisses!


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

I've just read through this whole post (probably not the best thing to do whilst at work and being a bit emotional about my own cats condition :crying

Mac is beautiful and very lucky to have you looking after him, lots of positive vibes for his continued fight xx


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## kategod (Feb 13, 2014)

Mac is a hero - and so are you! - I don't often post but I think about you a lot and am so pleased to hear of the encouraging signs. My vet said to me, when Henry had a similar set of symptoms, 'We're really working in the dark - we're often wrong in cases like these' - fingers crossed that is the case. It certainly looks a bit more positive and I so hope he carries on proving them wrong!


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Thank you for the update, I often think of you and Mac - I agree with chillmix unless you cant see a waist I wouldnt put him on a diet - he looks absolutely gorgeous in your video. I hope time continues to bring the improvements in health you both deserve xx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

im not going to put mac on a diet i'll just be a bit more careful over feeding him, since hes been sick i have basically let him eat pretty much anything he will eat, he was about 4.5kg when he first got sick, was 4.1kg when he was released from his vet stay on the 1st January and is 5.1kg now...so he has put on quite a bit but i dont think he looks fat, he just feels more solid .


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

LostSoul said:


> im not going to put mac on a diet i'll just be a bit more careful over feeding him, since hes been sick i have basically let him eat pretty much anything he will eat, he was about 4.5kg when he first got sick, was 4.1kg when he was released from his vet stay on the 1st January and is 5.1kg now...so he has put on quite a bit but i dont think he looks fat, he just feels more solid .


If it's his optimum weight he might well settle there of his own accord


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

well it seems like Mac needs his steroids...the vet said steroids can do some serious harm to him so he reduced the dosage on wednesday, so tuesday was his last full dose, hes been very sleepy since yesterday and refusing to play,he is still eating well though, i thought his lymph nodes were slightly bigger earlier but wasnt sure...now im sure, they have doubled in size since yesterday, i rang the vet and they told me to up his steroids to the dosage he was on before and with a bit of luck they'll go back down in a day or so but that theres not much else they can try....i keep kidding myself that he will get better...im starting to realise that might never happen


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Sorry to hear this LS.  It is true that long term steroids are not to be recommended as they can cause diabetes. 

I once had a cat I adopted in her senior years. She had IBD and had been given steroids indiscriminately over a quite a long period to manage the disease. As a result she developed diabetes, which required twice daily injections of insulin.  

It was pretty miserable for her to be coping with IBD and Diabetes, poor lass. After she'd been living with me for 3 yrs she died suddenly without warning of an undiagnosed circulatory condition, which the vet said was likely linked to the diabetes. 

These days most vets seem far more conservative than they were then in their use of steroids for cats, which is a good thing in general. But in the case of Mac who is seriously ill and is evidently worse off without the steroids, then it is better to keep him on them, in spite of the long term risks. 

I hope there is some better news soon LS. Thinking of you & Mac as always.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

chillminx said:


> Sorry to hear this LS.  It is true that long term steroids are not to be recommended as they can cause diabetes.
> 
> I once had a cat I adopted in her senior years. She had IBD and had been given steroids indiscriminately over a quite a long period to manage the disease. As a result she developed diabetes, which required twice daily injections of insulin.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Macs just eaten loads but he's really not himself tonight, he wouldnt eat with the other cats...i dont know how much time mac has left but i want his time to be as comfortable as possible and if that means he stays on steroids then so be it, he hissed at me today, hes never ever done that before  
before we reduced the steroids he was fine...or was acting fine, i hope once the higher dosage kicks in he'll be better, at least for a while..


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

Oh I'm sorry LS, cats do cope with long term steroids better than dogs but I understand your concern, Luna is starting to suffer from thinning fur on her back legs and possibly weakened muscles but she is on immune suppressive doses. What dose is Mac on?

I've also been giving Luna some bio algae each day and whilst it may not be helping her condition, I believe it's helping to protect her liver and kidneys.

Love to Mac xxx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

GingerNinja said:


> Oh I'm sorry LS, cats do cope with long term steroids better than dogs but I understand your concern, Luna is starting to suffer from thinning fur on her back legs and possibly weakened muscles but she is on immune suppressive doses. What dose is Mac on?
> 
> I've also been giving Luna some bio algae each day and whilst it may not be helping her condition, I believe it's helping to protect her liver and kidneys.
> 
> Love to Mac xxx


Mac was on one 5mg prednisolone tablet a day, half in the morning half at night...on wednesday the vet said to stop the night time half but tonight ive started it again...hes been on them for 4 weeks now and has no side effects at all except for some weight gain until i reduced them...i hope it is the reduced seroids that have made his lymph nodes swell back up and not something else, the vets did warn me that he could get sick very quickly ...


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

From what I've read 5mg should not cause any problems fora very long time 

Luna had been on 15mg , now 10 mg for almost 10 weeks and I would love to reduce it but obviously cannot for now. 

I hope Mac's condition improves xx


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

And Luna only weighs 3.5kg


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

GingerNinja said:


> From what I've read 5mg should not cause any problems fora very long time
> 
> Luna had been on 15mg , now 10 mg for almost 10 weeks and I would love to reduce it but obviously cannot for now.
> 
> I hope Mac's condition improves xx


thank you and i really hope Luna feels better soon,

ive read such conflicting things about steroids that ive confused myself...logically i should know that dosage would be ok because my old cat had spinal spondylosis and was on that dosage for a long time...but with Mac being sick i panic and forget everything ive read and everything i know, my brain just shuts down when i get upset....if the steroids help Mac for whatever time he has left then i wont reduce them again, he's giving himself a good wash right now and thats always a good sign.


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

I completely understand and can relate to that! I've managed not to cry today, so that's progress! :001_unsure:


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Dont worry about the steroids

Rowan was on 10mg a day for 3 months, and then 5mg a day for another 3 months. They were gradually reduced to 5mg every other day, and then dropped down to every 3 days, before he came off them completely after 10 months.

Hopefully Mac will come back to where he was now you have upped his dose again.

He really is beautiful, and even if I dont post, I am reading, and thinking of you x


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## sarah doharty (Apr 5, 2014)

Never give up, what the doctor said. hopefully mac was given a miracle from God and can return to normal activities.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Macs been back on his normal dose of steroids since saturday night, his lymph nodes are still bigger than they were before the vet reduced his meds but this morning i picked up the cat toys off the floor and he leaped in the air for them  ive been trying to get him to play for days but all hes wanted to do is sleep...hes been running around the room and bouncing off the walls this morning and his breathing is a lot better too...i cant believe how happy watching him play makes me! 

on a side note, he was due an xray last week but due to a dog fight in the waiting room the vet thought he as too stressed to be sedated...ive asked the vet if they can just make him sleepy and do it but he sad no he has to be knocked out completely and a breathing tube used and hes said there is a risk mac wont wake up...im so worried, especially with the breathing problems hes had, i dont want him to have it really but part of me thinks what if it shows something new that they can treat but the other part says what if it still shows nothing and he doesnt wake up...i dont really know what advice im asking for, just wondering what other people would do in my position i guess...


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## sem73 (Jan 30, 2009)

Hi Lostsoul

I suppose vets vary in their practices but I would ask your vet again regarding sedation only for an x-ray.....Miss Meg had a chest x-ray & a heart ultrasound under sedation only and was absolutely fine....can't at the mo remember what the sedation was called but it was quick acting & short acting and a reversal agent given straight after the tests & she came round quickly.....

Sarah


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

Hi LS

Why do they think there's a chance that Mac won't wake up, other than the usual risks? What is Mac's PCV now?

Talk it through with the vet so you understand and feel comfortable with the choice. 

Let us know what they say xx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

GingerNinja said:


> Hi LS
> 
> Why do they think there's a chance that Mac won't wake up, other than the usual risks? What is Mac's PCV now?
> 
> ...


Macs last pcv was in the low 30's, the vet said there are always risks with anesthetic i think they vet made a point of saying he might not wake up because of what he's been through and this illness he has..whatever it is, with his temperature being higher than normal and his immune system being compromised i guess it increases the risks but i will speak to the vet again before i agree to anything.

as the days gone on macs lymph nodes in his neck have got bigger...im at a loss of what to do, the vet has said if it is lymphosarcoma then this is to be expected and if its fip then it means the infection is taking over and the end is near and theres nothing else they can try,hes not responding to the antibiotics but the steroids were working until a few days ago, he's eating right now and im praying they will go back down, on wednesday before i reduced his meds i could hardly feel them, i feel so guilty for cutting down his pills i knew i should have left them but the vet said it had to be done...he was having such a good day


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Mac wont be having his xray, he has got steadily worse over the last few days and the vets says sadly there really isnt anything left to try, hes upped the steroids by half a tablet to see if it helps at all, he's still eating, cleaning himself and doesnt seem in pain hes just sleeping all day now unless he hears theres food about and his lymph nodes all over his body are getting bigger....i feel so useless watching it happen, im really not coping very well at all, ive done nothing but cry for 2 solid days...he had such a horrible start in life it seems so unfair that his life will be cut so short..its just over 3 weeks until his 2nd birthday. I wont let him suffer but now isnt the right time, i know he'll let me know when he's had enough and i will do whats right 
my heart is broken....


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

I'm so sorry LS, I really don't know what to say but I have been thinking of you for the last couple of days wondering how Mac was doing.

I know this may be controversial but I don't see what you have to lose... have you considered trying bio algae? Yes, I'm sure that all the hype is nonsense but it's worth a go isn't it?

I have been giving it to Luna and whilst it is not making her better, it is not making her worse and I like to think that it is contributing to looking after her kidneys and liver with all the medication that she's on. I'm sure this is more for my benefit than hers as I just need to feel that I am doing EVERYTHING that I can for her.

Big hugs xx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

thank you , i havent tried bio algae, to be honest i havent heard of it...i will see where i can get some.

i wish i know what my boy was dying from, its hard not knowing...i feel like theres so much more i could have done, if only i could afford specialists, if my vets hadnt given up on him at the start, if i'd fought the vets harder to get them to consult...i keep thinking about the day he was left here with me, August 8th 2012, i looked right at him and said i dont want him, it was just 2 weeks after losing my 19 year girl to cancer, i didnt think we were ready for another cat, now i would do anything to keep him with me, 
we've been in this position before and hes perked up so im not giving up on him just yet, hes just come to me for some chicken and as long as hes getting around and eating i know hes ok... but i know my boy and hes telling me its almost time.

Him and my cat cookie have a love hate relationship, he loves her she hates him...ive just found her curled up,snuggled righ up with him, it was beautiful to see but it broke my heart...im praying so hard for a miracle


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

I'll PM you the details. xx


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## denflo (Apr 29, 2011)

LS, I'm so sorry to be reading this, you are right not to give up just yet, but I understand how hard it is to watch all of this happen and not be able to do anything to stop it, I really feel for you. Just enjoy every good moment you and Mac have and let him know how much he is loved - I'm sure he does know that anyway. 

I am hoping for a miracle for you too, don't forget to look after yourself through all of this as well, easier said than done, but he will need you to be strong for him for a while yet.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LS, I am so very sorry and upset to hear this sad news about Mac, bless his heart. I understand how heartbreaking and stressful it all is for you. 

However, you are completely right to not give up on him and to keep hoping and praying for an improvement in his condition. I am sure all of us - your friends on the forum - feel the same.

Thinking of you and gorgeous Mac.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

LostSoul said:


> thank you , i havent tried bio algae, to be honest i havent heard of it...i will see where i can get some.
> 
> i wish i know what my boy was dying from, its hard not knowing...i feel like theres so much more i could have done, if only i could afford specialists, if my vets hadnt given up on him at the start, if i'd fought the vets harder to get them to consult...i keep thinking about the day he was left here with me, August 8th 2012, i looked right at him and said i dont want him, it was just 2 weeks after losing my 19 year girl to cancer, i didnt think we were ready for another cat, now i would do anything to keep him with me,
> we've been in this position before and hes perked up so im not giving up on him just yet, hes just come to me for some chicken and as long as hes getting around and eating i know hes ok... but i know my boy and hes telling me its almost time.
> ...


Hello LS! I think at some point all of us on here have been in your sad situation so of no consolation I know but we know how you are feeling right now! I am so sad for you and your boy! but stay as strong as you can for him!
I really will say a pray for you!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> i wish i know what my boy was dying from, its hard not knowing..


Not knowing is the hardest



> .i feel like theres so much more i could have done


No there isn't.

Sometimes life just isn't fair. It's the hardest thing to accept but it's true.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

So sorry to read this LS :sad:
You really have done everything you could, please don't think you haven't. We are are here for you xxx


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## korrok (Sep 4, 2013)

I'm so sorry LS...will be praying for a miracle for you guys too. It's really upsetting to hear Mac has gone downhill.


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## slartibartfast (Dec 28, 2013)

Paws and fingers crossed for a miracle. Thinking about you and Mac...


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

You and Mac are in my thoughts xx


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I'm so sorry to read about Mac. Having been where you are I know how much you want a miracle. I felt just as helpless and tortured myself with all the same questions, you just drift through the days living on hope that your cat will get better. Stay strong and don't give up hope and, please don't beat yourself up about the fact you couldn't go to a specialist, we did and it didn't change the outcome. Will be thinking of you and praying for Mac


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Aww bless you. 

Big hugs for you and for Mac. Whatever happens, you've done your very best for him and he will know that xxx


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Sending you both lots of hugs x x x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

thank you, everyone here has been so kind and helpful...i cant thank you all enough.

Mac has eaten tonight but hes been hiding which hes never done before...his eyes are still so full of life but he just doesnt seem to have the energy to do anything.

I hate talking about him in the past tense when hes still here with me but i will always feel like i should have done more to help him...im his mum and hes my boy,hes the child i can never have, i should have kept him safe, that was the one thing i should have tried harder at...i should have fought harder for him, i should have kept on at the vets when i first got him and i knew something was wrong, i should have done more....but even knowing what i know now i would still have taken him in that night in august 2012, im just so grateful he chose me to be his mum, my life will never be the same without him.
I will cherish every moment i have left with him..


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

LostSoul said:


> thank you, everyone here has been so kind and helpful...i cant thank you all enough.
> 
> Mac has eaten tonight but hes been hiding which hes never done before...his eyes are still so full of life but he just doesnt seem to have the energy to do anything.
> 
> ...


I read this whole thread before, and to me it sounds like you did everything you could for him.

Sometimes nature is cruel, and there's nothing to say that getting on with things any sooner would have changed the outcome. Be kind to yourself. Without you, Mac probably wouldn't be here at all.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

LS, I've been struggling to find any words of anything meaningful for you. As you say, Mac will let you know when he's had enough, and in the meantime we're all rooting for him. I won't often say this but if I had the money I'd gladly give it to you for a specialist. 

But remember, Mac lives in the present moment. To you, he's nearly two years old, but to him, he feels a bit tired and not quite well. To you, he had a tough start, but to him, he has love, security and food. To you, there may be more that can be done, but to him, he gets poked and prodded but apart from that he's got a good life. It's only us with our thoughts in the past and present who too easily forget to be right here right now. 

We know that we have medicine and mercy at our disposal, cats don't know that. We wish there was more we could do, cats are not just happy with what we've done, they are happy that we simply be with them. 

If this is the beginning of your journey to a parting of the ways for you and Mac, if that is where he really is, then remember to stop and smell the flowers along the way, breathe the dawn air, feel the sunshine, listen to the crickets chirp. Enjoy your time together, in the moment. 

It's only human to ask, what if? The answer to what if? is always, then maybe.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

LostSoul said:


> <snip>
> if only i could afford specialists, if my vets hadnt given up on him at the start, if i'd fought the vets harder to get them to consult...
> <snip>


I really doubt any of these things would have made a difference to his outcome. Yes you might have a definitive diagnosis, which I realise can be very comforting, but I think you are beating yourself up over things which couldn't have affected him in the longer term.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Lostsoul I cant add anything that hasnt already been said, but sending you and Mac lots of love and hugs xx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

how can he be so sick but look like this, it breaks my heart


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

just had to take mac to the vets, hes fading fast 
his lymph nodes are huge, we saw a completely different vet an out of hours one who took one look at him and said lymphosarcoma or maybe it was lymphoma i was crying and not listening (is there a difference?) ...mac seems to have a swelling in his stomach now too which isnt fluid, they advised i to put him to sleep but i said no, mac is still coming for food and although he sleeps all day now as soon as he hears his treats or a pouch opening hes there for it. I know he might only have a day or two left but he will spend those days with me.

so thats now 2 vets who think he has cancer...and one who thinks FIP, ive been in touch with people who have cats with FIP and although mac does have the temperature it really doesnt seem like he has FIP to me..which is a relief as that one vet said mac could have caught it from my girls and that basically it would have been my fault for not cleaning after them properly...i cant help that they decide to all use the same litter tray when i give them plenty of others...i do clean after them too! he also advised me never to get another cat as it can get FIP too...i cant imagine ever getting another cat but i cant ever rule it out.


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Honey so sorry he's losing his fight. I can't type much as cooking risotto so can't let it burn, but the vet is talking rubbish about FIP. If Mac does have it, don't blame yourself over the litter tray or think you can't have another cat. Thinking of you both so much x x


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Oh LostSoul I wish I could say or do something, anything at all to help....but I can't.
If mac really is fading fast, then I wish you the strength to be able to choose the right time to help him to pass, without suffering.
It is the HARDEST thing to do, and I know myself I have soldiered on in the hope that the cat would rally....so I speak from experience.
Hold him, love him and spoil him, have a couple more days with him....but don't leave him to fade too far at home before calling the vet.
If at all possible I would call the vet to your house, both for your sake and Mac's.

As for never getting another cat....rubbish. Jiskefet is the best person to ask about this as she has a house full of cats and did take on another after her beloved young cat passed with FIP. Many many cats carry the Corona virus and it only mutates into FIP in a tiny percentage of them.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

I don't know much about FIP but it didn't sound right that the vet is blaming you, so I had a little nose around and found this article about it brochure_ftp which does not seem to support this vet's rather insensitive remarks. Also, this article Is My New Cat at Risk of FIP Carried by My Other Cats? | Catster addresses multi-cat households and FIP. I also found this forum answer helpful http://www.justanswer.com/cat-health/2toli-two-cats-carriers-fip-exposed.html

I realise this is not where your head's at right now but wanted to offer some alternative view from the one you've been given, both on your own possible role in Mac's illness and on the distant-if-ever question of any more cats. Please let those comments go, this is a time for Mac, not a time to be taking on board criticism and guilt.

As before I send you my love and the solidarity of my own precious companions for Mac.

There is a little voice inside my head now re-questioning Bobby's occasional coughing, watery eyes and one-off snotty nose. Internet reading can be good or bad.


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

So sorry LS, please know that you have done EVERYTHING that you could have done and more. Spend the time with Mac, giving him all the love that he deserves xxx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

LS, I am really sorry to hear this sad news about Mac. My heart aches for you. 
Treasure the time you have left with him, and do not for a moment feel you have done anything to cause his illness. 

FIP is not contagious, it is a rare mutation from the feline corona virus, a virus which is endemic in the domestic cat population, and especially prevalent in catteries and shelters. 

I agree with Foreverhome, when Mac's time comes, ask the vet to make a home visit. I wish I had been able to do this with my own cats when I had to let them go, but I never got the chance. 

Thinking of you, and dear Mac, as always.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Just sending you hugs LS - you are in my thoughts xxx


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm so sorry LS :-( thinking of you xxx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Mac is making his own rules, late last he took a turn for the worse, he fell over, his breathing was laboured nd he was having trouble swallowing, i rang the emergency vet but they told me to keep him comfortable and ring back this morning, we made the decision that it would be macs last night...i must have falen asleep some time after 4am, i woke up a couple of hours later to find him on the window sill making chirping noises at the birds, he was first in the kitchen for his beakfast and hes been pottering around all over the place. So today he is going nowhere...i should learn never to give up on my boy because every time i do he surprises me .
I know this doesnt mean hes better but it means hes better for today.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh bless him, I hope today continues to be a good day for Mac and you to spend quality time together xx


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## Mozzie (Jan 29, 2014)

.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Bless the dear fellow, he is such a fighter! :thumbsup: So glad he has rallied, for the time being at least LS


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

Hi LS, how is Mac tonight? Xx


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Lostsoul you have my on going admiration for your no nonsense realistic view of everything in really difficult circumstances - hug for you both x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

GingerNinja said:


> Hi LS, how is Mac tonight? Xx


to be honest i dont know...this morning he was wonderful but hes slowed down as the days gone on, ive got an ornament of a sleeping cat on my side and right now hes asleep with his head on it, its always been one of his favourite sleepy places...hes eaten quite a lot,cleaned himself and let me brush his beautiful fur, he just not himself at all and im starting to think hes not happy...i dont think hes suffering though and his eyes are still so full of life, 
ive lost fur babies before but i never had any doubt with then when the time was right, this time i do...he just keeps eating and it feels so wrong.. 
I will just see what tomorrow brings.

I made a mould of his paw print earlier, which he wasnt impressed by it but i wanted to have something to keep ...


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

wicket said:


> Lostsoul you have my on going admiration for your no nonsense realistic view of everything in really difficult circumstances - hug for you both x


oh im not sure i deserve any admiration, i just find it easier to write things down and gather my thoughts that way rather than talk about it...i might seem calm and in control (or not ) but in reality im a sobbing mess. 
But thank you xxx


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Being a sobbing mess is a great way to stay sane in trying circumstances, go for it x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

We have decided that today will be macs last day...he will be going to the vet tomorrow and unless the vet can give us the miracle we've been praying for it will be his last journey,
his breathing is starting to get worse and we think its best we let him go before he has to fight for every breath, hes still enjoying his food and has so much life in his eyes but he doesnt have the energy to do much any more, its heart breaking but i cant be selfish, hes fought this thing for 15 weeks and i hate it for taking my boy away from me, 
he will miss his 2nd birthday by just 3 weeks, 
but in the short time that hes lived hes been through so much and im so glad i met him..he changed my life with his fluffiness, there will never be another 
Mr Mac Fluffy, i will never forget him, he will always be my boy...my bubba fluffs.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I am deeply sorry to hear this LS, it is such tragic news. You know Mac better than anyone else in the world, and you will know when the time feels right for this decision. As you say, it would be morally wrong to let him struggle to breathe to the point where he is suffering. Much kinder to let him go with dignity. 

Sending you much sympathy at this very difficult time LS. My thoughts will be with you and gorgeous Mac. Bless you both.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I know how hard this is. Living beings are only ever on loan to us and we have to give them up when it's right. You were allowed to borrow him and you are allowed to miss him when he's gone.


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

As ever will be thinking of you both x x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

thank you all for the kind words

Mac has just decided he wants to play, i thought i was sure about tomorrow,now im not


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

LS, I cannot really write much without tears blurring the screen....but do know that I am thinking of you all.
x


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Thinking of you and Mac at such a sad time. If he is breathing well enough to play then perhaps it isn't now - when the good times are few and far between and it's mostly bad times you will know.
Best wishes xxx


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

LostSoul said:


> thank you all for the kind words
> 
> Mac has just decided he wants to play, i thought i was sure about tomorrow,now im not


It doesn't matter how many times Mac changes his mind. It sounds like you made this decision with your head ... remember Mac will speak to your heart to tell you when he has had enough. Try to clear your head of the question When? so that the voice of Mac in your heart will be loud and clear. If it is his last day, his last week, then spend the time with him, in the moment, whether he is well or poorly. They do often rally when the end is near, humans do too sometimes.


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> It doesn't matter how many times Mac changes his mind. It sounds like you made this decision with your head ... remember Mac will speak to your heart to tell you when he has had enough. Try to clear your head of the question When? so that the voice of Mac in your heart will be loud and clear. If it is his last day, his last week, then spend the time with him, in the moment, whether he is well or poorly. They do often rally when the end is near, humans do too sometimes.


i know and youre right...hes laying back down now just watching, there still a little voice in me which is saying he might get better tomorrow or the day after but i know deep down that he wont and i want his last days to be filled with happiness and love not pain and suffering, i will always wonder what if...i still think i could have tried harder, people have kindly offered me things which may have helped him and ive refused them..maybe i shouldnt have, i know in my heart that if today isnt his last day then it wont be far away, i guess its better to be a day early than a day late....it just hurts so very much.


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

I really don't think anyone could have tried harder than you have so please don't think that way.

I'm so sad for you and Mac  Keep strong for him and as you said you'll do the right thing by him when it is time.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

If it is FIP, there is nothing you or anyone could have done different. The very fact that there is no clear diagnosis points that way, doesn't it? If so, to lug him around more and more vets and specialists doing more and more inconclusive tests would have gone against everything you believe in about his final days and weeks. 

We do all we can, and in the end one day all we have left to offer is the ultimate gift of selfless love - to let them go in peace. Personally, my tolerance threshold on behalf of my animals is very low compared to most people. I would not have gone as far as you have in trying to help Mac, I say that hand on heavy heart. 

Didn't you say he was beginning to eye up the carrier with suspicion? My apologies if I read that from someone else. But for me that is a time to question the benefit of more medical care. You have done and are still doing your best for Mac. There comes a time when the best is to stop doing. We all know that. It just doesn't make it any easier when it happens to us. It doesn't stop the what-ifs. But it shouldn't stop us from making the journey a quality one.


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

I've read over this, and to me it looks like you have given EVERYTHING for your beautiful boy - all your love, your time, your money, your patience. I think everyone is right, you couldn't have done more, you done the best you can for him!

I can't even imagine how hard this is, cat's become a part of the family and you love them more than anything. Continue to love him, in my eyes that's worth more than any medical help and when the time does come, know you were the best owner you could be to him


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

If we could only take the pain away from you and Mac we would do it in a heartbeat! It's breaking my heart to read the posts here! I do know how you feel right now as we were faced with the same decision last year! You have done everything possible to ensure that your Mac has had the best of care and love! Please try and stay strong! You must be in bits but still try and let Mac just see your smiles not tears for now! Gold bless!


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

I'm so sorry LS, my thoughts and heart have been with you all day. I'm dreading having to make the same decision in the near future :crying:
Xxx


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

My thoughts are with you LS. You have done everything anyone could for your precious Mac. My heart goes out to you.

Please take care of youself. I am sure that you must be emotionally exhausted. 

Sending love and hugs.


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## denflo (Apr 29, 2011)

I am so, so sorry to be reading this, we all had such hope for dear Mac when he was seemingly improving, but as far too often happens, things were just not meant to be. You should be assured that you really did do absolutely everything you possibly could. There is no reason to believe if you had done it differently then the outcome would be any different, please don't beat yourself up about it. Mac knows how much he is loved and will always be there in your hearts and minds. He is so lucky to have had you to care and love him, sadly, many others will never know the feeling to be loved so much. 

Just be with him tonight and know that you are doing what is right and you have only ever acted out of love for him, sometimes there are battles that we just can't win x


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

my boy is gone..im broken...i miss him so much already


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Lots of hugs LS, remember the good times, it will get easier I promise x x 

Night night Mac an angel taken too soon x


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## korrok (Sep 4, 2013)

I'm so sorry LS. My thoughts are with with you today. Run free Mac. x


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

I have no words to soothe your pain, all I have is to join my heart to a virtual community's in sending you all my love today, for you and for Mac. May he walk in the Light, healed and whole again, till you are together again.


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## slartibartfast (Dec 28, 2013)

I'm so sorry for your loss. 
Goodbye Mac, I wish you safe journey to the Bridge. Run free and play. 
Much loved, much missed, you will be forever in our hearts. 
I hoped for a miracle, I'm so sorry that it didn't happen...
Sending big hugs.


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

Goodbye Mac, play hard in the sunshine little man xxx


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## Esemais (Sep 8, 2013)

I'm so very sorry to read this. 

I too had hoped for a miracle. 

They leave such massive imprints on our hearts and are sadly taken too soon. 

RIP Little Mac. X


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

This has made me cry 

RIP beautiful, handsome Mac, you were loved so much!


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

A very sad day! there are no words to say LS! Mac! you have friends where you are now! god bless you and your loving Mum!


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## kategod (Feb 13, 2014)

I am so, so sorry - I so hoped it wouldn't come to this - you did a fantastic job with your beautiful boy and gave him the best life possible...Mac will be with you always and now he is free from all suffering... He is so lucky to have had you.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

RIP Beautiful brave boy, You will be very much missed xx


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## Catloverbearsden (Aug 20, 2013)

So very sorry to hear about Mac x


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Bless Mac and you, LS, my thoughts are with you at such a sad sad time. I'm so sorry for your loss, please take heart that Mac is at the bridge.
My Maddy and Oscar will take good care of him in the fields and sunshine looking down on you. RIP Mac xxxx


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## Jannor (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm so sorry x


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm so sorry  R.I.P Mac xxx


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm so sorry LS, my heart goes out to you.

Take solace in the fact you did everything you could possibly do for Mac, and he felt loved and adored x

Sweet dreams Mac x


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## ScruffyCat (Jun 7, 2013)

Oh my word.... What to say..... I am sat in bed with tears streaming down my face having read this thread from start to finish.

You are so brave and you have done your upmost for Mac, my heart is breaking for you.

I'm struggling to find the right words... I'm lost for words....other that the fact that you have done an amazing job offering love and support to Mac and you must rest in the knowledge that he knew you had his best interests at heart and now he is in a place free from pain and illness.

Run free at the bridge little man RIP xxx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I am so sorry to hear this very sad news Lost Soul. My deepest sympathies to you. We are here for you if you need to talk.

RIP gorgeous, brave, handsome, lovely Mac. You will be remembered.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

I hope LostSoul is OK!
This little poem was sent in a card by a good friend of mine when I had to let my last little girl go last year. I hope is if some help! I know these things make us cry but they are things we remember when we're at our lowest.

He is Gone
You can shed tears that he is gone,

Or you can smile because he lived.  
You can close your eyes and pray that he will come back,  
Or you can open your eyes and see all that he has left.  
Your heart can be empty because you can't see him,  
Or you can be full of the love that you shared.   
You can turn your back on tomorrow and live yesterday, 
Or you can be happy for tomorrow because of yesterday.   
You can remember him and only that he is gone,  
Or you can cherish his memory and let it live on.  
You can cry and close your mind, be empty and turn your back,  
Or you can do what he would want: smile, open your eyes, 
love and go on.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

So so sorry Lostsoul, run free at the bridge sweet brave Mac xx


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## LostSoul (Sep 29, 2012)

Soozi said:


> I hope LostSoul is OK!
> This little poem was sent in a card by a good friend of mine when I had to let my last little girl go last year. I hope is if some help! I know these things make us cry but they are things we remember when we're at our lowest.
> 
> He is Gone
> ...


That is so beautiful...thank you,

i am ok thank you...heart broken and full of doubt but ok, i really dont know if i did the right thing and i still dont think i did enough to help him, it was my job to keep him safe, 
mac still had so much life in his eyes and i feel like i betrayed him, 
he was a silent little boy, never meowed, never purred...but my home is so much quieter without him and a lot emptier, he was such a huge character.
My girls have been searching for him and they dont seem to like me much at the moment, they dont understand why hes gone...i miss him so much, i know it will get easier but right now it hurts to breathe without him.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Ohhhh no  LS I am so very, very sorry to read that Mac is no longer with you

You really both fought so hard and it must be so devastating to lose the battle - it's really been a roller-coaster ride 

(((hugs))) take care & please stick around 


RIP Mac, sleep tight wee man xx


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## sharonchilds (Jul 7, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear your sad news, its truly devastating when we lose one of our babies.
Run free at the bridge Mac, you were such a brave boy. xx


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## ArchieandMolly (Mar 29, 2013)

So very sorry to hear about Mac - I followed his story as it unfolded and I'm sure nobody could have done more for him than you did - he was a very lucky cat indeed to have you as his carer. His life might have been shorter than you would have liked but it sounds like, on balance, it was a very wonderful life indeed, and he was loved and cared for in a very special way. Take care, x


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm so sorry to read this, but know that you did your very best for him. 

I've been where you are and it's hard to get through. When we helped Aber to Rainbow Bridge, he was 13 1/2, unable to walk, starting to leak constantly, and miserable and whiny a lot of the time. But he still had moments of joy and happiness, and he had 2 solid good days before the vet came. So, in my head too I saw that he had life in his eyes and he was smiling and happy and it was so very hard to let go. In fact, we cancelled our first appointment with the vet simply because he still had happy days. I had trouble crying once he was gone because I felt so guilty, in my head, that I had stolen away from him just one more good day or hour or week.

But my heart, which is very slow to interact with my head, has always known that we gave him a gift by letting him go. He was miserable more than he was happy and some moments of happiness are most likely not enough to keep going. I think were I in his shoes, I might have welcomed a few beautiful days followed by sweet peace. And that knowledge has helped me to come to terms with the loss and my own part in it and while I'm still working through it myself, I am feeling more and more like my heart is the thing speaking good sense and real love and my head is just not on the right page. 

So, what I'm trying to say is you did the right thing for your boy and I know the pain of letting them go (especially when he was just a baby really), but it is a gift and time will eventually heal the wound. Just keep reminding yourself how much love he experienced before his end--enough to fill a long lifetime I'm sure. 

RIP Mac. Play hard at the bridge where every breath comes easy and you will never tire out.


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