# In season bitches



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I keep reading on here how irresponcible some owners are for either walking their bitches in season or even letting them out in their own gardens unsupervised.Now i do both and have NEVER had entire males come after my Mia or come near my garden.If these 2 things are such bad things to do can some please explain why i don't come across this problem.*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I can see the downside of of walking and leaving them unsupervised even in the garden and i replied to the thread this morning in the breeding section because the op was blaming the dog from coming into the garden which is bit stupid. I have a very secure garden and always felt ok about letting molly into the garden she only ever goes out has a wee and comes back, i also walked her when in season no way could i have kept her in doors for that time and tbh ive had no problems.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Dunno, are you in a very rural area? There was a local stray dog (who later became mine) in season and I remember her having about six males after and around her at one time when she was in a season. Everything from a little old JRT to a massive lurcher. This was the only time I ever witnessed a full on dog fight as well, between two of the males.


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## Hols<3Millie (Sep 2, 2010)

how secure is your garden, there may be no entire males near you. 
Don't think there is near me so i don't worry about letting her out unsupervised (we rarely leave the door open so close it when she comes in) and i only give her 1-2 walks a week as she's terrified leaving the house.  x


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Hols<3Millie said:


> how secure is your garden, there may be no entire males near you.
> Don't think there is near me so i don't worry about letting her out unsupervised (we rarely leave the door open so close it when she comes in) and i only give her 1-2 walks a week as she's terrified leaving the house.  x


*My garden is very secure but as i've said i have walked her in season in very crowded places and have never had any problems with other dogs.*


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I take it you're referring to the post about an unwanted mating?

You may not have had a problem yet, but how would you feel if you'd got an entire bitch, left her outside, and a dog got to her? For me, there is no good reason to leave an in season bitch alone unsupervised unless you have fort knox with a moat around it. 

I live rurally and am 99% certain I wouldn't have a problem, but what about that 1%. I am responsible for the care of my dogs, and I take that very seriously, which, for me, includes ensuring that no accidental mating occurs. Matings in themselves can be dangerous, so why would you want to risk that happening.

As for walking bitches in season, again, you may not have had a problem, but the guy with the entire GSD walking after you may do, as may umpteen other people with dogs and sometimes even bitches. In my mind, I put the welfare of my bitches first by not walking them when in season, and also consider other dog owners by not leaving the scent of a bitch in season where it will most certainly be a distraction to other dogs. Bitches in season, ime, mark quite their status quite by urinating frequently, is that fair to other dog owners? 

I do know that some take their bitches in season to a secluded spot where there aren't other dog walkers around that the scent of their bitch will cause a problem to. Which is fine, it's the equivalent of living in an out of the way spot with access to an area to let them exercise, which I'm lucky enough to do. 

This debate comes up frequently on this forum, and it always ends up with people disagreeing saying it's cruel to keep a bitch in when she's in season, and others saying actually, it's with the bitches welfare in mind that she is kept in, along with consideration for other dog walkers.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

You've been lucky - but beware your luck could run out. It could be that entire males have never been around when you've walked her, but that doesn't mean they might not have chaos after you've gone and you simply haven't seen it!

The other possibility is maybe, in spite of having seasons, your girl doesn't ovulate so is not as tempting.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

dunno depends where you walk your dogs i quess and maybe people are more responsible where you live. depite being rural i have the same muppet every 6 mths who walks his in season dally off lead 4 times a day .


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I take it you're referring to the post about an unwanted mating?
> 
> You may not have had a problem yet, but how would you feel if you'd got an entire bitch, left her outside, and a dog got to her? For me, there is no good reason to leave an in season bitch alone unsupervised unless you have fort knox with a moat around it.
> 
> ...


*You see this hasn't been the case in my experience,and i will only talk from what has happend to me.I've not said its cruel to keep a bitch inside when in season,i know i can't and wont.But i do believe some people go way over the top in their oppions on this subject.Now personaly i don't give 2 hoots what peoples oppinions of me are but i do think some members should think about how they word there posts.*


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## xxsarahpopsxx (Sep 30, 2009)

There is actually a guy in the park at the moment who has three dogs - 2 collies and a husky/akita. The husky is in season at the moment and he has been walking her with the others as per his routine. I have never yet come across anyone who has had any problems and there are lots of entire males, females plus neutered males and females. Geordie isnt affected in the slightest and she played with the husky for 5/10 minutes. this was with a neutered male joining in and apart from the initial sniff, left her alone.

People are always going on about how it is unfair for the male dogs and owners and that it is the females owners responsibility. But surely we are always going on about how you shouldn't let your dog offlead unless you can completely trust them. Therefore i feel that entire male dogs shouldnt be let off in heavy populated areas incase there is an in season dog within a mile radius out in there own garden etc.

i will probably get shot down for saying this but in my OPINION i have never came across any problems from in season girls being walked. my parents owned two entire girls and never once encountered a problem and have never had males at their back door even though the girls used to be let out into the garden which was not even remotely enclosed.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> But surely we are always going on about how you shouldn't let your dog offlead unless you can completely trust them. Therefore i feel that entire male dogs shouldnt be let off in heavy populated areas incase there is an in season dog within a mile radius out in there own garden etc.


That would mean an entire dog could never be let off lead. It is not about training - natural instinct kicks in and takes over. OK, not all male dogs are interested - that's why some dogs don't make stud dogs, but equally, neutered dogs can also tie - they will just be firing blanks.

It's about duty of care - to your bitch and to other dog walkers. Unwanted pregnancy is the obvious outcome, but there is also the danger of an unsupervised tie with people that don't know what they are doing. If either the dog or bitch tries to pull apart while tied, they can rip the genitals internally which can be life threatening - in fact, dogs and bitches have died when this happens.

Would you want to risk your dog's life? I know I wouldn't.

If you want to keep an entire bitch - fine. But take responsibility for it. It effects a bitch twice a year and the owner knows when. A dog walker will not know (until their dog starts ignoring them) that someone has an in season bitch around and it could be at any time during the year so is completely unfair to expect them to take responsitility. I'm not sure why people can't see the obvious!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

dexter said:


> dunno depends where you walk your dogs i quess and maybe people are more responsible where you live. depite being rural i have the same muppet every 6 mths who walks his in season dally off lead 4 times a day .


For the last 2 years Mia has had seasons whilst we have been on holiday in Wales.Now she has to go everywhere with us.One place in particular is a walk that runs for 9 miles which loads of dog owners use.



xxsarahpopsxx said:


> There is actually a guy in the park at the moment who has three dogs - 2 collies and a husky/akita. The husky is in season at the moment and he has been walking her with the others as per his routine. I have never yet come across anyone who has had any problems and there are lots of entire males, females plus neutered males and females. Geordie isnt affected in the slightest and she played with the husky for 5/10 minutes. this was with a neutered male joining in and apart from the initial sniff, left her alone.
> 
> People are always going on about how it is unfair for the male dogs and owners and that it is the females owners responsibility. But surely we are always going on about how you shouldn't let your dog offlead unless you can completely trust them. Therefore i feel that entire male dogs shouldnt be let off in heavy populated areas incase there is an in season dog within a mile radius out in there own garden etc.
> 
> i will probably get shot down for saying this but in my OPINION i have never came across any problems from in season girls being walked. my parents owned two entire girls and never once encountered a problem and have never had males at their back door even though the girls used to be let out into the garden which was not even remotely enclosed.


Thankyou.I have never had dogs follow us either and believe me there's loads where we go.


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## Bellasmaid (Aug 18, 2010)

I do keep my bitch in after 10 days when in season and that's just what I feel is best. At the start of her season i take her out but she is sprayed with bitch spray which works well with our bitch.

I own an entire male and belive me it's hard work walking him when an in-season bitch has been around. He pulls in completely the opposite direction you want him too as he would rather follow the scent. I have even seen him bare his teeth at me and my partner after we had stopped him going after an in-season bitch.


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## xxsarahpopsxx (Sep 30, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> That would mean an entire dog could never be let off lead. It is not about training - natural instinct kicks in and takes over. .
> 
> If you want to keep an entire bitch - fine. But take responsibility for it.


Surely if you want to keep an entire male, then responsibiltiy also has to be taken for them 

I completely understand what you are saying and i am just picking because i'm bored (my bitch is neutered) but surely if you keep either sex entire then it is the responsibility of both parties.
If your entire male is likely to take off when he smells and in season bitch then he should be kept on a long line because you never know if he mite get a whiff if the wind is blowing in his direction.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Thankyou.I have never had dogs follow us either and believe me there's loads where we go.


Perhaps she doesn't ovulate Janice.  While some dogs are attracted by an inseason bitch, often, they don't show much interest until they are actually ovulating. Their sense of smell is acute and they can tell the difference.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Perhaps she doesn't ovulate Janice.  While some dogs are attracted by an inseason bitch, often, they don't show much interest until they are actually ovulating. Their sense of smell is acute and they can tell the difference.


*Well i also have an entire male and he shows an interest.*


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *You see this hasn't been the case in my experience,and i will only talk from what has happend to me.I've not said its cruel to keep a bitch inside when in season,i know i can't and wont.But i do believe some people go way over the top in their oppions on this subject.Now personaly i don't give 2 hoots what peoples oppinions of me are but i do think some members should think about how they word there posts.*


Where have I said anything offensive on the matter?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Well i also have an entire male and he shows an interest.


Well if he's around her all the time he may well do. If he is the only dog that has ever shown interest around her as you say, then I would suspect there may be a problem.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Where have I said anything offensive on the matter?


*I'm sorry i was not aiming my remarks at you.I was making a statement about some members in general.*


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## xxsarahpopsxx (Sep 30, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Well if he's around her all the time he may well do. If he is the only dog that has ever shown interest around her as you say, then I would suspect there may be a problem.


What about my parents dogs? They never once had a problem. And one of the bitches definitely was ovulating as the other bitch we had was her daughter


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Well if he's around her all the time he may well do. If he is the only dog that has ever shown interest around her as you say, then I would suspect there may be a problem.


*I'm sorry but can you explain that please,as i'm confused.*


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Surely if you want to keep an entire male, then responsibiltiy also has to be taken for them
> 
> I completely understand what you are saying and i am just picking because i'm bored (my bitch is neutered) but surely if you keep either sex entire then it is the responsibility of both parties.
> If your entire male is likely to take off when he smells and in season bitch then he should be kept on a long line because you never know if he mite get a whiff if the wind is blowing in his direction.


My dog are gundogs and are very well trained, but I would not trust my boy 100% around an inseason bitch (and he is neutered). You cannot train 100% for such a strong natural instinct. This is why in season bitches are banned from entering competition grounds. I personally don't have problems, but it is about care, responsibility and consideration for others.

As I said, an entire bitch owner (who chooses to keep their bitch entire) only has to deal with it for around 6 weeks of the year. An entire dog owners would never be able to be let off lead because of the possibility. They won't know when or where they will meet an inseason bitch until it's too late.

I have entire bitches and they get taken out to a local industrial estate where there are no dogs during the early and late part of their season. During the middle while they are ovulating they stay at home. No problems and they aren't bothered. It's for a few weeks each year - perhaps I just have more of a conscience and consideration for others as well as my dogs!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I'm sorry but can you explain that please,as i'm confused


What's to explain Janice? You say you have taken your inseason bitch out with during her season and met loads of other dogs and none have shown an interest in her? While not ALL dogs will show interest, the fact that none have indicates that there may be a problem.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I honestly dont know how people cope or more to the point how their dogs cope with being kept in for 3 weeks.


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## xxsarahpopsxx (Sep 30, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I have entire bitches and they get taken out to a local industrial estate where there are no dogs during the early and late part of their season. During the middle while they are ovulating they stay at home. No problems and they aren't bothered. It's for a few weeks each year - perhaps I just have more of a conscience and consideration for others as well as my dogs!


But when you have border collie bitches - it is impossible to keep them couped up in the house for more than a few days. My parents collies were from working stock and were very laid back as they got great exercise every day - if they went a few days without exercise they went completely hyper and when there are 4 kids going around 2 hyper collies are not the best things. 
I agree that consideration should be taken into account but i personally find that the people who take them first thin in the morning/last thing at night are asking for more trouble as around here those are the busiest times for workers so surely during the day when we can go out and not meet anyone is more appropriate.

I personally think that no one should be given a hard time for their choices as long as, as you say, conscience and consideration for others is taken.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> What's to explain Janice? You say you have taken your inseason bitch out with during her season and met loads of other dogs and none have shown an interest in her? While not ALL dogs will show interest, the fact that none have indicates that there may be a problem.


*Perhaps i'm being blonde here,but you stated she might not ovulate,then my question is why does my boy show an interest in her?
And just for the record,i have always had entire male dogs and have never had a problem with those either.This is why i don't understand some of the posts on here about in season bitches.It surely can't be just luck in every case.*


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I honestly dont know how people cope or more to the point how their dogs cope with being kept in for 3 weeks.


It's not always 3 weeks if you take them out early and late in the season to somewhere other dogs won't be. And for the time you can't take them out, then there's the garden and training. Limited exercise in the garden certainly won't affect a dog if they have some fun training. Brain exercise is far more tiring than physical exercise anyway


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

Where we used to walk, someone had an entire male cocker. One day someone was walking their bitch in season, and the cocker went off in chase for 4 miles, mean while we were all left looking for him. Eventually he came back. Next day he was wearing a shock collar because he followed his instinct.

This would have not happened if the bitches owner had showed a little consideration and walked their dog else where whilst in season. 

My opinion is that dog owners should be considerate of others. There are many places to go where other dogs don't go often. Ok they may not be interesting, or very pretty but saves the bitch and the above happening. JMO


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

sue&harvey said:


> Where we used to walk, someone had an entire male cocker. One day someone was walking their bitch in season, and the cocker went off in chase for 4 miles, mean while we were all left looking for him. Eventually he came back. Next day he was wearing a shock collar because he followed his instinct.
> 
> This would have not happened if the bitches owner had showed a little consideration and walked their dog else where whilst in season.
> 
> My opinion is that dog owners should be considerate of others. There are many places to go where other dogs don't go often. Ok they may not be interesting, or very pretty but saves the bitch and the above happening. JMO


Ok i've said this before on here,when we are in Wales we have no choice but to take our in season bitch where ever we go,so what would be your answer?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> It's not always 3 weeks if you take them out early and late in the season to somewhere other dogs won't be. And for the time you can't take them out, then there's the garden and training. Limited exercise in the garden certainly won't affect a dog if they have some fun training. Brain exercise is far more tiring than physical exercise anyway


No way would she do anything in the garden that would come anywhere near satisfying her, being the breed mine are they get the physical and mental exercise everyday twice a day, she just wouldnt cope at all.She has only had 1 season after the next one she is definetly going to be spayed, because for all i took her out and for some of the time she was off lead as i cant exercise her on lead, i found it really stressfull, so spaying it is.


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> Ok i've said this before on here,when we are in Wales we have no choice but to take our in season bitch where ever we go,so what would be your answer?


Industrial estates, secluded river banks where the scent gets washed away, empty car parks. Drive somewhere where you don't see any other dogs.

You cannot guarentee you definitely wont meet other dogs, but it show diligence, and consideration.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

sue&harvey said:


> Industrial estates, secluded river banks where the scent gets washed away, empty car parks. Drive somewhere where you don't see any other dogs.
> 
> You cannot guarentee you definitely wont meet other dogs, but it show diligence, and consideration.


*That isn't possible.As i said we have to take them everywhere with us as they are not allowed to be left in the house on their own.*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

i dont supervise my in season bitches in the garden because i know if my huskies cant get out then unwanted dogs cant get in i dont take them out midseason when theyre ovulating and i can see they will stand, but i take them out the rest of their season because my dogs dont go off lead anyway so ive never had much of a problem with rampant dogs tbh


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *That isn't possible.As i said we have to take them everywhere with us as they are not allowed to be left in the house on their own.*


Then personally I would time my holidays when they were not in season.


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

When my Bella was in heat she got at least 3 walks a day, and the extending lead (8m) was often used. I think I let her off lead once, in an area where I was sure there was no way another dog would show up...
but she was depressed enough with on lead walking, I can't see at all how she would have even vaguely coped without walks at all. No training, playing in garden etc can substitute a walk. And Bella never toiltes in the garden anyway, and some people don't have gardens.

I am so glad I spayed her and will not have to go through with this again.

But I do think certain bitches really don't cope without a walk for 3 weeks...it's bad enough having to walk on lead only! NO walks is unimaginable for me. And of course w eaviuded areas with other dogs!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

sue&harvey said:


> Then personally I would time my holidays when they were not in season.


*We don't have a choice,where my hubby works they have a 2 week shutdown in the summer and aagain at christmas.*


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think the point is, you may not have had a problem, a few others may not have had a problem, so is it ok then for all of us with entire bitches and dogs to walk them all at the same time?

Also, the thing about wind scent comes up quite frequently, and a lot of people say, what does it matter, if the scent of an in season bitch carries for ten miles anyway? Forgive my brief scribblings, but here's why, try and bear in mind that I am a professional artist, so these are accurate renderings:










As you can see, the scent cones blowing the lovely smell of our in season bitch covers much more of an area than keeping her at home, as well as providing a nice smelling trail for all and sundry to follow, I know Indie, my older bitch, will mark over the top of other dog's scent and would show interest in an in season bitch, so heaven help someone with a really randy dog, whether it's entire or neutered.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

sue&harvey said:


> Where we used to walk, someone had an entire male cocker. One day someone was walking their bitch in season, and the cocker went off in chase for 4 miles, mean while we were all left looking for him. Eventually he came back. Next day he was wearing a shock collar because he followed his instinct.
> 
> This would have not happened if the bitches owner had showed a little consideration and walked their dog else where whilst in season.
> 
> My opinion is that dog owners should be considerate of others. There are many places to go where other dogs don't go often. Ok they may not be interesting, or very pretty but saves the bitch and the above happening. JMO


I know what you are saying some males will go to the ends of the earth ive personally not experienced it. The bitch owner can hardly be blamed for the idiot owner putting a shock collar on the male though.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

I see the problem from both sides. I have entire bitches, one of which is a border collie who would be jumping off the wall without exercise, and I also have entire males who are difficult to control if they catch the smell of a bitch in season.

When the girls are in season, I walk them separately from the boys, they are never walked off the lead, and I don't take them out when they are actually in the stage of standing and presenting - usually for a period of about four days. I do try to walk them at times when other dogs won't be around, but it doesn't always work - and I must admit there have only been an odd few times in all the years when a dog has come up to them. Because I don't walk them when they are in the presenting stage, and because I call out a warning to any owners we meet, the very worst that has happened is Evie sitting down and growling at a male dog until the owner removed him from her vicinity. They are let out into the garden and have much more exercise in there than normal - but never on their own "just in case".

I walk my entire boys both on and off the lead as the situation demands and, to be honest, the thought of keeping them on the lead just in case they catch the scent of a bitch in season strikes me as not very feasible. Yes they have come across the scent of a bitch in season many times (there's no mistaking the dumb expression and the teeth chattering!) but a stern command to return has them back by my side and then I put them on the lead until I can make sure the bitch in question is nowhere around. Once we have moved away from the particular areas they caught the scent, the walk continues as normal.

Funnily enough, the place we suffer most from the males reacting to a bitch in season is the show ring. Going into a ring after someone else has had a bitch in season in there is a nightmare - there is nowhere to get the males away from the scent and as they will then spend their entire time in the ring with their noses glued to the ground, you may as well give up and go home!


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## Kaitlyn (Apr 28, 2010)

Cass goes out unsupervised.. its a case of having too when im at work and Oh's son is at school. Oh can't get out there on his own so we've got no choice. Suppose though we're lucky as our garden is very enclosed, and has a locked 8 ft gate at the end of the alley. And she's the only dog in our block so no worries about neighbours dogs  Haven't walked her this season although i have in the past, gotta say though i've never had any trouble before.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Thankyou to all those that have replied.The whole point of me starting this thread was to show that imo things are not as bad as some will have us believe.I'm not saying that some have these problems but there are 2 sides to everything.*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I can see by how this thread has gone that, problems with bitches being walked in season and let out into the garden alone is very few and far between. Interesting


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Woman in our park walked her in season lab at the same time she always walks, my mates adolescent entire male got a whiff and there was no stopping him, he mounted and tied (all while the woman flapped about with her baby in a baby carrier trying to prevent the mating), these 2 dogs don't particularly get on either so it could have been really nasty, leaving aside the fact that the dog would have travelled a fair distance and i doubt a main road or railway would have prevented him. The bitchs owner had to fork out for the mismate (just incase) Not sure how much that cost her but would have been a few quid. 

I dont think these incidents are that uncommon  in my case Oscar has never shown any interest but that is in stark contrast to my friends dog. 

How should she manage that when she has no control over the stimulus  Keep him onlead permanently i suppose, not really fair :frown:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Woman in our park walked her in season lab at the same time she always walks, my mates adolescent entire male got a whiff and there was no stopping him, he mounted and tied (all while the woman flapped about with her baby in a baby carrier trying to prevent the mating), these 2 dogs don't particularly get on either so it could have been really nasty, leaving aside the fact that the dog would have travelled a fair distance and i doubt a main road or railway would have prevented him. The bitchs owner had to fork out for the mismate (just incase) Not sure how much that cost her but would have been a few quid.
> 
> I dont think these incidents are that uncommon  in my case Oscar has never shown any interest but that is in stark contrast to my friends dog.
> 
> How should she manage that when she has no control over the stimulus  Keep him onlead permanently i suppose, not really fair :frown:


*I have had dogs the best part of my adult life,and can honestly say i have never had or seen this problem.*


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> I can see by how this thread has gone that, problems with bitches being walked in season and let out into the garden alone is very few and far between. Interesting


But you haven't heard from many with entire males. Muddy was entire until he was 3 years old, in the summer he had to be nearly always on the lead because of picking up the scent of bitches in season. His behaviour outside and at home was dreadful if some darling bitch owner had walked their bitch in season. Of course we were totally unaware beforehand if a bitch had been walked 
Half the time the people with bitches never see the carnage left behind them


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> But you haven't heard from many with entire males. Muddy was entire until he was 3 years old, in the summer he had to be nearly always on the lead because of picking up the scent of bitches in season. His behaviour outside and at home was dreadful if some darling bitch owner had walked their bitch in season.
> Half the time the people with bitches never see the carnage left behind them


*Apart from Mia i have always had entire males and still haven't seen the "carnage"..You see this is what i don't get,i'm sure i'm not just lucky.*


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I have had dogs the best part of my adult life,and can honestly say i have never had or seen this problem.*


Doesn't mean it doesn't happen though  and if you do have a problem with it then its a pain in the arse and potentially dangerous to your dog. Like i said Oscar seems to have no interest at all but his mate is the total opposite so it doesn't affect ME but i can see the problem it causes for some.


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## HWAR (Jul 19, 2010)

Granted lots of you have never had a problem with other dogs when you are walking your in season bitch, never has the bitch been hassled or approached my another dog, never have you been in a position where you are having to try and fend off a randy male who has caught the bitches scent and is adamant he needs to get to her - hopefully you never will, it doesn't happen all the time and I'm sure lots of bitches get through their lifetime without ever having an incident whilst in season. BUT all it takes just one dog, one accident, a new dog in the area who you've never come across before. It can happen and, unfortunately, it does happen. _Personally_ its a risk I would never ever take, I am responsible for my dogs welfare and safety and part of that is keeping her safe and not putting her at risk.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Apart from Mia i have always had entire males and still haven't seen the "carnage"..You see this is what i don't get,i'm sure i'm not just lucky.*


I haven't seen any "carnage" either - as I said, the most I've had to do is call my entire males back to me and put them on the lead until they lose the scent, and the worst that has happened to my bitch is that she sat down and growled at a dog until his owner put him on a lead.

I'm not saying that the kinds of things that happened to Rainybow's friend don't happen, but like you Janice I think they actually happen far less than people believe. Certainly, in more years of owning dogs than I care to count p) I've never come across anything so drastic, despite having both entire males and entire females.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Doesn't mean it doesn't happen though  and if you do have a problem with it then its a pain in the arse and potentially dangerous to your dog. Like i said Oscar seems to have no interest at all but his mate is the total opposite so it doesn't affect ME but i can see the problem it causes for some.


*I agree thats why i said there are teo sides.*


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

xxsarahpopsxx said:


> Surely if you want to keep an entire male, then responsibiltiy also has to be taken for them
> 
> I completely understand what you are saying and i am just picking because i'm bored (my bitch is neutered) but surely if you keep either sex entire then it is the responsibility of both parties.
> If your entire male is likely to take off when he smells and in season bitch then he should be kept on a long line because you never know if he mite get a whiff if the wind is blowing in his direction.


how the heck are we dog owners to know if a bitch is in season or not ..... we can't smell it unlike the dog who can........................


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I agree thats why i said there are teo sides.*


Exactly  It's difficult because it may not be that common but if it does happen there are quite alot of factors like harm to your own bitch and the dog from the attempted mating or the dog trying to locate the bitch and getting run over etc.

I don't think i would keep my bitch in for the entire time if i had one but i do think i would show consideration and be selective about when and where i walked


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

I'll throw another question into the debate.Can bitches in season be shown?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I think it depends on where you live, if you have any males living near you and the energy level of your bitch. If you live in a urban area, with tons of males living near you and a low energy level bitch, then there is no reason to walk your bitch in season and this is IMO dangerous for your bitch and dogs around you. If you live in a very rural area, with no male dogs living near you and a high energy level bitch, then I see why you would need to walk your bitch in season, and I wouldn't see an issue with this.

For example, in my area, we must have well over 100 dogs in a square mile, with many of these being entire or neutered males. It would be very irresponsible to walk a bitch in season, but many still do, and then complain that dogs are harrassing their bitch. 

For the case of leaving your bitch unsupervised in the garden, I don't see why you can't just watch your bitch in the garden, as she toilets or plays.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> I'll throw another question into the debate.Can bitches in season be shown?


No
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/4438/obedregs.pdf

Disqualification of Dogs.
A dog shall be disqualified and removed from the Show if it is:
a. A bitch which is in season.
b. Suffering from any infectious or contagious disease.
c. Interfering with the safety or chance of winning of an opponent.
d. Of such temperament or is so much out of hand as to be a danger to the
safety of any person or other animal.
e. Likely to cause suffering to the dog if it continues competing.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> I'll throw another question into the debate.Can bitches in season be shown?


The rules Rona posted are for obedience competitions. There is no similar rule for conformation shows, although there is a rule that says no mating is allowed.

Most owners don't risk taking a bitch in season into a show ring - in my own case I leave them at home with the OH because before we even got to a show the journey would be a nightmare with enitre males and bitches in season all in one vehicle!

However, there are also owners who take bitches in full season to shows regardless - and if you're in the ring after them, you may as well go home because all the males want to do is sniff the floor!


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I keep reading on here how irresponcible some owners are for either walking their bitches in season or even letting them out in their own gardens unsupervised.Now i do both and have NEVER had entire males come after my Mia or come near my garden.If these 2 things are such bad things to do can some please explain why i don't come across this problem.*


Well I walk mine jan and I also let em in the garden! but the graden is under normal circumstances 99% dog proof! I do try and keep a close eye on her anyway! And no! I have never had a problem either other the the geriatric 15 randy 15 year old with a heart defect who has hung around my back gates! But if you thought there was a possibility that a dog could get into your garden to Mia you would watch more wouldn't you??

I think I know which post you are referring to (me) and the OP did say this dog was straying around - so the possibility was that it could get in their garden!
DT


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I can see by how this thread has gone that, problems with bitches being walked in season and let out into the garden alone is very few and far between. Interesting


And a quick look at rescues and even the breeding section of this forum (which is a minute percentage of the dog owning population) shows that accidental pregnancies are not few and far between either 

The bottom line is you either do what you want and take your in season bitch out when in season which is likely to cause problems for others, or you are considerate of other dog walkers and care about your own bitches welfare and work round seasons or get them spayed.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I'll throw another question into the debate.Can bitches in season be shown?


Interesting that dog shows do allow in season bitches although I guess they are on lead all the time, so perhaps that's why. It is not allowed at any gundog events or while working and you'd be sent home with a flea in your ear if you ever entered the grounds with an in season bitch.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Interesting that dog shows do allow in season bitches although I guess they are on lead all the time, so perhaps that's why. It is not allowed at any gundog events or while working and you'd be sent home with a flea in your ear if you ever entered the grounds with an in season bitch.


Yep! but the dog owners do get upset when there is or has been a bitch in season in the ring!


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I wont walk mine as I dont want the unwanted attention from other dogs.. as not everyone is so quick to recall there dogs...

There are a lot of dogs on my walks all types and sizes some trained some not so well trained... So I would rather not take the risk...

But mine do go out in the garden... 

And at the end of the day.. Its your dog so its your choice how you manage things..


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> The rules Rona posted are for obedience competitions. There is no similar rule for conformation shows, although there is a rule that says no mating is allowed.
> 
> Most owners don't risk taking a bitch in season into a show ring - in my own case I leave them at home with the OH because before we even got to a show the journey would be a nightmare with enitre males and bitches in season all in one vehicle!
> 
> However, there are also owners who take bitches in full season to shows regardless - and if you're in the ring after them, you may as well go home because all the males want to do is sniff the floor!


This also applies to Field trials
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/7710/KC-FieldTrialRegs.pdf
Working trials
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/4439/wtbtregs.pdf
Heel work to music
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/6104/htmregs.pdf
Removal of Dog(s) From the Trial
A dog shall be removed from the Trial if it is:
a. A bitch which is in season
b. Suffering from any infectious or contagious disease.
c. Interfering with the safety or chance of winning of an opponent.
d. Of such temperament or is so much out of control as to be a danger to
the safety of any person or other animal.
e. Likely to cause suffering to the dog if it continues competing.

I wonder why all these highly trained dogs that work off lead have to be kept apart from bitches in season


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I do agree with Janice. I thought the post where someone was blamed for allowing her bitch out in the garden was ridiculous. Male dogs, or any dogs, should not be allowed to wander loose. It is the male dog's owner who is totally at fault.
I have always walked my bitches and if a loose, unattended dog had ever come after them I would have caught it and given it to the police. As it happened I have never had a problem. A dog that is allowed to wander loose with pick up the scent of a bitch in season whether it has been walked or not so it makes no difference what you do with it.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I do agree with Janice. I thought the post where someone was blamed for allowing her bitch out in the garden was ridiculous. Male dogs, or any dogs, should not be allowed to wander loose. It is the male dog's owner who is totally at fault.
> I have always walked my bitches and if a loose, unattended dog had ever come after them I would have caught it and given it to the police. As it happened I have never had a problem. A dog that is allowed to wander loose with pick up the scent of a bitch in season whether it has been walked or not so it makes no difference what you do with it.


Its' NOT ridicoulous is it when the OP even said that their was a roaming dog in the area!! really??? I leave mine in the garden too as it happens! but not UNATTENED if I knowif there is a rampant dog on the loose! 
Are you telling me you do????

And for your information! I walk mydogs in season too! NEVER had a problem!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Blitz said:


> .
> I have always walked my bitches and if a loose, unattended dog had ever come after them I would have caught it and given it to the police. As it happened I have never had a problem. A dog that is allowed to wander loose with pick up the scent of a bitch in season whether it has been walked or not so it makes no difference what you do with it.


do the police still take in loose dogs?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

surely though its the bitches owner responsibilty to ensure the garden is secure??? if a dog can get in the garden then imo they need to be vigilant and keep an eye on their bitch, its common sense really.

im not saying its right for a dog to be straying either but sadly strays are a fact of life.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Male dogs, or any dogs, should not be allowed to wander loose. It is the male dog's owner who is totally at fault


.

No, dogs should not be allowed to wander loose, but what if that 'loose' dog was one that was being walked in the park off lead (with a normally good recall) and caught a whiff of the inseason bitch that had been recently walked there an followed the scent to her home.

I know of one dog that was run over and killed after picking up the scent of an in season bitch that had just been walked there. It happened so quickly that the poor owner was left devastated and mad (as I would have been) at the bitches owner for being so selfish as to walk them there in season.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Its' NOT ridicoulous is it when the OP even said that their was a roaming dog in the area!! really??? I leave mine in the garden too as it happens! but not UNATTENED if I knowif there is a rampant dog on the loose!
> Are you telling me you do????
> 
> And for your information! I walk mydogs in season too! NEVER had a problem!


You sound very cross! I think that OP said her garden was secure and the dog ripped the fence down. Obviously it would be daft to leave the bitch in an insecure garden as she could escape.
Stray dogs are something that really get my back up. They should be policed and owners should be fined a substantial amount if they let their dogs wander.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> .
> 
> No, dogs should not be allowed to wander loose, but what if that 'loose' dog was one that was being walked in the park off lead (with a normally good recall) and caught a whiff of the inseason bitch that had been recently walked there an followed the scent to her home.
> 
> I know of one dog that was run over and killed after picking up the scent of an in season bitch that had just been walked there. It happened so quickly that the poor owner was left devastated and mad (as I would have been) at the bitches owner for being so selfish as to walk them there in season.


Completely agree with this. That was the whole point of my pictorial and slightly humorous post, to show how it not only increases the amount of 'airspace' if you like, where a scent will be blown, known as a scent cone, but also that the scent a bitch leaves, because they actively advertise by peeing frequently, will also lead a trail directly to the house.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Haha It was my dog that was in the garden..(And I was slated for it)... She was jumped by another..

I have a right to put my dogs in the garden.. And if I need a pee.. then I need a pee... This was a very long time ago...


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I remember many many moons ago, long before I knew about responsible dog ownership we had an entire male mongrel, in those days we opened our front door in the mornings to let him out, and he would saunter in and out of the house all day and then come home at the night, YES I KNOW this was totally irresponsible, but thats how many people dealt with their dogs then far few cars about dogs tended to be street savvy etc(some people still do it today) although its something I wouldnt dream of allowing myself now. anyway to my point, one day he didnt come home, I looked high and low for him, driving around streets, going to local pound, putting out posters etc still no sign until one day a man was in my local post office as I was asking the people behind the counter had they had any news on my poster, the man who was also in the post office said Hmmm I was just going to call you about this dog, I asked him had he seen him, the reply was have I bloody seen him, hes been parked in my garden for the last 4 days howling he lived approx 2 miles away and his bitch was in season, he had walked his bitch and since then all the local males had congregated outside his door including my boy, I drove immediately to his home with the fella in tow in his car, and as I pulled up I saw my dog along with about 4-5 other dogs, my boy was a mess he had been in scraps with the other males, he TOTALLY ignored my calls to come, wouldnt even look at me, I had to liturally drag him away and put him in the car, I took him home cleaned him up tried to feed him, but he refused, he had lost a lot of weight, and spent the next few days trying at every opportunity to get out of the house and whined the whole time, this taught me the power of a bitch in season, and never to allow him to wonder again.

Mo


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

I believe it is my responsibility to take care of my bitches. I've taken the decision to keep them unspayed so I need to be responsible for all that entails. If I decided to take them out in full season, or they escaped the garden and a male got to them I would blame myself and no one else. And I would also be prepared for the male's owner to be quite cross with me.

Luckily I haven't had any issues (YET) with unwanted male attention around our garden. I wouldn't want to tempt fate by saying I've never had any trouble with them as it is possible that we could one day.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2010)

Blitz said:


> You sound very cross! .


Cross?? me never!! Actually I thought I was having a good day today! I am certainly much politer then normal Must be coz the suns shining!:thumbup:


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Funnily enough, the place we suffer most from the males reacting to a bitch in season is the show ring. Going into a ring after someone else has had a bitch in season in there is a nightmare - there is nowhere to get the males away from the scent and as they will then spend their entire time in the ring with their noses glued to the ground, you may as well give up and go home!


I agree with this we were once at a breed champ show when the person whose dogs were next to mine asked if I was showing male dogs. I said I was and he said well be carefull a bitch has just walked past in full season. Look he said and showed me a trail of blood spots on the floor right in front ofmy stud dogs cage. He was fine until I got him out to get ready for the ring. Needless to say we didn't get palced as he had other things on his mind. Yet he doesn't notmally bother about my bitches being in season.

I will say I don'tnormally walk my in season bitches they make do with the garden and I also have a tread mill but Amber was in season a few weeks agoand there was no way I could not exercise her while she was in season she went out late when everyone else had one in. Fortunately she was ins eason whilst we were having a wet spell so her scent was costantly being washed away and mostof the fair weather walkers didn't bother walking their dogs.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I NEVER take an in season bitch to shows, I know how hard it is with me also having males that I show, but there are many that dont realise or dont give a damn, that feel the possibility of getting a bit of card or ribbon is worth, stressing out other competitors and lets face it make them lose the costs of an entry because their dog just cannot control themselves because of the scent thats driving them mental. a few years ago I was at a CH show, my boy was calmly on his bench minding his own business(in fact asleep) when another competitor arrived and placed his bitch on the bench behind my boy, within seconds my boy had a very glazed look on his face, was turning on his bench sniffing the back of the bench wimpering, and then tried to actually climb over the back of the bench, thankfully I was there and he had a benching chain on so managed to get control of him, the bitches owner had walked off leaving his in season bitch on the bench unattended. I had to take my boy away from the area to try an calm him down (unsucessfully I might add) later as my daughter was trying to handle him in the ring I spoke to the bitches owner asking what day she was on he calmly told me ohh day 13I said do you realise your girl is causing havock in the benching area, he replied, well thats not my problem???? I was gobsmacked.

Mo


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2010)

Moboyd!
The first block of shows I took milly to co-incided with her first season! I am familiar with bitches/seasons and did genuinely think she were over, albeit still swollen! (think she was on about day 24 believe it or not) A particular young dog paid her a vast amount of interest and I have never been so embarassed in all my life and made a swift exit! Yep! I know now that first seasons can be longer to give young inexperienced bitches more chances of conceiving !!!

Did post on here about it at the time(as old DT) that is something I shall never do again!
DT


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rona said:


> So who are these know it alls
> How insulting


I thought it was a bit ott as well, everyone posts their opinion, so why are one set of people seen as know it alls?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> So who are these know it alls
> How insulting


lmfao why take it personaly? Can you show me who is right and who is wrong?



rocco33 said:


> 'The know it alls' - you mean like you Janice?
> 
> You've proven nothing except you want to be proven that your own point of view on walking in season bitches is right, you like to do what you want and don't care about the effect it has on others. To be honest, I think it's just something you like to argue about. This is only one of many posts/threads you've made on the subject - and no doubt it won't be the last


wthf Me know it all? NO re read my posts.even you imo contradictided yourself.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

You are very lucky you haven't come across two very oversexed newfies, aren't you? Ferdie humped everything that moved, could never be off a lead. Joshua was ok until he was about 11 months, when we came across a woman with two labs who told me to keep my dogs away because hers were in season. Sorry, lady, but I don't think they should be in the one place where everybody in the area (and out of it) walks their dogs. Joshua was ten stone at the time and I had a lot of trouble getting him away. In my opinion, too young to be neutered; I like to wait until a dog is full grown if at all possible. Unfortunately, because of this incident it wasn't possible as he started jumping on me and almost broke my neck! He was done at 12 months.

You really cannot rely on other dog owners being that responsible, either. Like the idiot who sits inside the cafe on the heath and lets his bernese mountain dog, also entire, go wherever the hell it likes. When there was almost a fight between him and my two, this responsible owner was too far away to see what was going on, being sat in the cafe with his cup of coffee! It really wouldn't matter whether the bitch was offlead or on if he came along and sniffed them.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> lmfao why take it personaly? Can you show me who is right and who is wrong?


I didn't take your comment personally, still doesn't make your comment anything but insulting.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> I didn't take your comment personally, still doesn't make your comment anything but insulting.


I'm sorry but just because i don't agree doesn't mean i dont have feelings as well.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

The thing is Janice, I have a pup staying here atm, I'm helping to socialise, it so happens the person wants it swapping on to raw. So I'm giving him chicken wings, holding on to them. I took the pup out for socialisation, just to get him used to traffic, sights and sounds of people, and got stopped by an old lady. She'd had dogs for the better part of 40 years, and tried to feed the pup a biscuit, which he didn't want. When she queried what he was fed on, I told her he'd had green tripe that morning, Oh, she said, he needs something to get his teeth into, he does, I said, chicken wings. 

You can imagine the rest - that's from someone who has owned dogs for the better part of 40 years, so she told me, and how terrible I was feeding a pup raw, etc, etc. 

We all learn, I hope I never stop learning about dog ownership. I will never (and please tell me if I do) preach that I am 100% right in my opinions, except in one area, the irresponsible breeding of dogs. 

It's a shame this thread has degenerated, as it had provided good information from all sorts of different experiences. Moboyd's input shows an entirely different experience to yours in that they had one bad experience that put them off the more relaxed approach you find works. 

Anyway, off to get the fire lit and open a bottle of red, it's about time....


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


Sleeping_Lion said:



The thing is Janice, I have a pup staying here atm, I'm helping to socialise, it so happens the person wants it swapping on to raw. So I'm giving him chicken wings, holding on to them. I took the pup out for socialisation, just to get him used to traffic, sights and sounds of people, and got stopped by an old lady. She'd had dogs for the better part of 40 years, and tried to feed the pup a biscuit, which he didn't want. When she queried what he was fed on, I told her he'd had green tripe that morning, Oh, she said, he needs something to get his teeth into, he does, I said, chicken wings.

You can imagine the rest - that's from someone who has owned dogs for the better part of 40 years, so she told me, and how terrible I was feeding a pup raw, etc, etc.

We all learn, I hope I never stop learning about dog ownership. I will never (and please tell me if I do) preach that I am 100% right in my opinions, except in one area, the irresponsible breeding of dogs.

It's a shame this thread has degenerated, as it had provided good information from all sorts of different experiences. Moboyd's input shows an entirely different experience to yours in that they had one bad experience that put them off the more relaxed approach you find works.

Anyway, off to get the fire lit and open a bottle of red, it's about time....

Click to expand...

Green tripe is just fine, imo. my hubby used to work in a place that produce it,and my gsd and rough collie were both feed on it..As for learning,i've changed my mind on a lot of things over the years,and i'm still learning as well.*


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> Green tripe is just fine, imo. my hubby used to work in a place that produce it,and my gsd and rough collie were both feed on it..As for learning,i've changed my mind on a lot of things over the years,and i'm still learning as well.
> 
> *


*

I think you've misunderstood, it was the chicken wings this person was aghast at, she'd never heard of raw feeding at all. Now whilst I type this, I'm sat here with a swollen knuckle, because I don't just give the pup the wings, I hold on to them to allow him to learn to chew. Although since he tried to eat my finger last night, I've gone back to the old bash them up method, so he can't swallow them whole.

The point is, this person was very closed minded, dog food was the be all and end all and she wouldn't even listen to me. This thread has contained advice from both sides, and appeared to be pretty good natured, if there were threads you didn't like, you could have just ignored them - most people ignore me I'm sure, particularly when I post after wine o'clock *


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Its been mentioned on here and many threads, when things have got a little personal that everyone is entitled to their opinions, that is actually very far from the truth on this forum the typical ones are "walking bitches in season" and "health testing" and this isnt aimed at anyone on here imparticularly but dare anyone say they walk their bitches in season or have a dog from unhealth tested parents better start running. The fact that many have had dogs from uh tested parents and have gone on to live long healthy lives counts for nothing and people that have walked their bitches in season and never had a problem counts for nothing either, so its a bit untrue to say people are entitled to their opinions what they really mean is you are entitled to your opinion but keep it to yourself, well ime afraid many of us janice for one dont keep opinions to themselves just because it doesnt conform to what the majority think


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Its been mentioned on here and many threads, when things have got a little personal that everyone is entitled to their opinions, that is actually very far from the truth on this forum the typical ones are "walking bitches in season" and "health testing" and this isnt aimed at anyone on here imparticularly but dare anyone say they walk their bitches in season or have a dog from unhealth tested parents better start running. The fact that many have had dogs from uh tested parents and have gone on to live long healthy lives counts for nothing and people that have walked their bitches in season and never had a problem counts for nothing either, so its a bit untrue to say people are entitled to their opinions what they really mean is you are entitled to your opinion but keep it to yourself, well ime afraid many of us janice for one dont keep opinions to themselves just because it doesnt conform to what the majority think


Thankyou, my idea of a forum is to debate,which those that know me,know i will do.I'll be damned if i'll conform just because a few think i should or to be part of the click.I have stated on this thread there are 2 sides to this coin but that part gets over looked.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Showing an interest and being able to perform are two different things I think Janice. How many times has a dog tried to mount its owner? Quite a few I think but you aint gonna see a humanoodle are ya?

Maybe that is why you have not been bothered whilst walking your in season bitch in busy places is cos your wee girlie dog does not ovulate (which has been said before).

What would you do Janice if you was out, your wee girlie poodle dog was in season, and a great big alsation mounted your girlie, what would you do? xxx


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

gorgeous said:


> Showing an interest and being able to perform are two different things I think Janice. How many times has a dog tried to mount its owner? Quite a few I think but you aint gonna see a humanoodle are ya?
> 
> Maybe that is why you have not been bothered whilst walking your in season bitch in busy places is cos your wee girlie dog does not ovulate (which has been said before).
> 
> What would you do Janice if you was out, your wee girlie poodle dog was in season, and a great big alsation mounted your girlie, what would you do? xxx


*I'd use my common sence and not let the alsation near her.As for her not ovulating please explain why my male dog DOES show interest in her when she is in season.*


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *My 2 dogs are not the topic of this thread,but just for the record.According to what i have read on HERE it " could" be that Mia wont let Kai mate with her.Now as i've stated before Kai DOES show an interest in Mia but thats as far as it goes.*


Nobodies dogs are the topic of this thread! but surely the replies that members have made are based on their own experiences with their own dogs! Or is that against the rules now too and do we have to go away and plough through documented research produced by the RSVS or other similar boby before we can post a reply now!


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'd use my common sence and not let the alsation near her.As for her not ovulating please explain why my male dog DOES show interest in her when she is in season.*


I am not a vet nor am I an animal biologist and equally I have not observed the behaviour between your two dogs before, during and after a season. Therefore I am unable to give an explanation why your boy poodle DOES show an interest when girl poodle is in season, but does not go the full monty so to speak. BUT there must be a reason - animal instincts are to well you know do the business in order to procreate. Are you wanting baby poodles? If so might be worth taking your pooches to the vet to see what they say.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

What baffles me is why people don't spay or neuter their pet dogs. If everyone spayed and neutered this problem would be significantly reduced. What is the point in keeping them entire if they are never going to pro-create and are physically mature (and therefore, there are few potential negatives of the spay/neuter)? 

As for bitches, I have always let mine have a season first before spaying. I would always walk them when in season; a month with no exercise would be impossible. I would let them off lead, too. BUT, only in very quiet areas; areas where I would be unlucky to come across anyone else. I would drive there, too.


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## chis (Sep 2, 2010)

I have my back door open at all times during the day although i have a wired fence going right across the garden so the dogs can only access their area not the whole garden, so my bitches have access to their part of garden at all times the reason for this is i have Chihuahua's and they need to toilet quite often chis can be very hard to house break and this way i have no mess in doors, their is no way a dog from outside could get them i have a 6 foot fence round the whole garden as well as the 4 foot wired fence to the dogs area, 
my point being it really would depend on how secure your garden is as to whether a bitch is safe being in the garden on her own or not, if other dogs could easily get in to her then i would never leave her unsupervised at any time in the garden as if other dogs can get in easily she can get out just a easy and that would be disastrous at any time but even more so in a bitch on heat


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I don't walk mine in season or let them in the garden alone (I don't anyway I like to be outside with them). I could probably get away with it up here, there are plenty of 'secluded' areas but I'm not willing to risk it.

Everyone has their own way of doing things. I might not like your way and you probably don't like mine but I do know that both of us don't give a sh*t what the other thinks about it :thumbup:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Its been mentioned on here and many threads, when things have got a little personal that everyone is entitled to their opinions, that is actually very far from the truth on this forum the typical ones are "walking bitches in season" and "health testing" and this isnt aimed at anyone on here imparticularly but dare anyone say they walk their bitches in season or have a dog from unhealth tested parents better start running. The fact that many have had dogs from uh tested parents and have gone on to live long healthy lives counts for nothing and people that have walked their bitches in season and never had a problem counts for nothing either, so its a bit untrue to say people are entitled to their opinions what they really mean is you are entitled to your opinion but keep it to yourself,


Here here so true..

Always makes me laff...The saying of everyone is entitled to there opinions..


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Bloody hell girls. Me and Bullet piss off for a week and you're at eachother's necks! LOL And who says women don't need men? 

Anyway, for what it's worth, I can weigh in with a bit of anecdotal evidence about my own dog.

*1. Video of Paddy when Poppy (his love interest) was in season.*

Poppy and Paddy grew up together. They met up in the park each evening, played games and helped their 2 male owners become good mates. Poppy was coming into season one day. Paddy noticed. Paddy grew up. 

Paddy is a bouvier, 27" tall, 7 stone. Poppy is a Bischon, 15lbs and 10" tall. Paddy does not let a small thing like maths deter him from his desires (he's too young to learn division). Welcome to my house at walking time for 3 full weeks (and again at 11pm each evening):

YouTube - How many times can a dog howl in 1 minute?

*2. Snippets of a Facebook conversation with Paddy's breeder that took place while Poppy was in season*

Paddy had stopped eating. As in, "stopped eating anything".

Me: "Everyone ...else...Paddy's getting mildly better, although he's still off his food (is that normal Clare?). He eats chicken and ham but not one ounce of any dog food after him literally starving himself for 3 days."

Clare (Paddy's Breeder): "Hi Chris - yes, the starving himself is normal. I'm in the process of fattening Brad up again after he refused to eat for 3 weeks because he was in love with a mini schnauzer. What a combination ?????? lol."

*3. The situation since then*

If Paddy is in the park at the same time as Poppy, even though she has come out of season, he does not allow any other male dog to go near her. Luckily, her owner likes it like that, and even takes pride in the fact that Paddy has become so protective of his little bundle of joy. This week, Paddy floored a German Shepherd and a Mastiff. All they did was go for a sniff. 
There are some benefits too though. If I've finished walking around and I am now sat at the benches talking with the other dog owners, Dave can walk in with Poppy and it means Paddy gets an extra couple of laps. He literally just joins on to Poppy and walks off with her and Dave to go walk "her" around the park. Once Poppy's tired out, Dave joins us all back at the bench where Paddy takes up his "bodyguard" role. PMSL.
Oh, and Paddy has also claimed 2 human girlfriends since then by peeing on their legs (one is a barrister, and the other is a blood transfusion specialist, so he has good taste).

I think I've learned a lot from it though.

Last year, if Paddy met an in-season bitch (there is a thread on here where he met an in-season Yorkie being walked in the park), I would have freaked and tried to do my hardest to prevent him from doing what "he wanted to do". That includes jumping up at the owner if she picked the bitch up in her arms (as he did on that occasion).

But now, I'd simply walk over, smile and then place him on his lead and walk back to the group. If her best dress was muddy with his massive paw prints, or even if he had held her little bitch down and shagged it half to death, you wouldn't hear me apologise. I've realised that it's not my job to look out for other's stupidity (that's not you by the way Janice).

Nowadays, I have no problem with an in season bitch being walked, as long as the owner is confident with dogs. I'd expect to see the owner restraining my dog by his collar if he comes up for a shag, and a holler of "Sorry mate...she's in season". I've no problem at all with that. It gives me a chance to go up, pop Paddy on his lead and grab a quick convo.
Basically, don't pick your dog up and start heading for the gates with my dog in tow if you knew she was in season. Just grab him by the collar to prevent the mating and give me a chance to catch up the 1/2 mile he just ran to get to her. If you can do that for us, I can get him on a lead.

My dog will be OK if you do that. He's well trained. I can't talk for everyone's dog of course. Some people don't train their dogs, so obviously, there's a risk of being bitten...I understand that. But I'm just saying.

To end my little addition to this thread though, I can say that there are products available for both sexes!

MALES: Once you're aware there is a bitch in season, and your dog has reacted, you need to get some Vick's Vaporub and place a little under each nostril before his walks. The Vicks blocks out 99% of the bitch smells.
FEMALES: Once your bitch looks close to/is in/has just been in season, you need to buy this: Buy Johnsons Bitch Spray, £2.49, Dog Training and Behaviour Products, Online Pharmacy . Just a little spray on the backside before walks helps neutralise the in-season smell in both the urine and the pheromones of your bitch.

Hope that last bit helped!

:thumbup:


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Hi my Mother inlaw had big black lab years ago when ever bitch nearby came into season she new about it he would jump at windows destroy blinds and curtains howl, bark even become aggresive to get out to bitch was different dog at that time normally calm


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

classixuk said:


> Paddy is a Bouvier, 27" tall, 7 stone. Poppy is a Bichon, 15# and 10" tall. [SNIP]...


and they would make delightful progeny, i am sure, classix. :blink: 


classixuk said:


> If Paddy is in the park at the same time as Poppy... tho she has come out of season,
> *he does not allow any other male dog to go near her.* Luckily, her owner... takes pride
> in the fact that Paddy has become so protective of his little bundle of joy.


goody for the Bichon owner - he gets to enjoy the mayhem, as a spectator; HE is not legally liable - 
but U are. 


classixuk said:


> This week, Paddy floored a German Shepherd and a Mastiff. All they did was go for a sniff.
> [SNIP]...


*i am absolutely sure the GSD-owner was not thrilled, nor was the Mastiff owner; their dogs 
did nothing to rate being 'floored'. Paddy is OTT in his turfy ownership of Fifi. 
i sincerely hope that Fifi's owner comes to his senses, and gets HIS bitch desexed, ASAP - 
hopefully before her next estrus,* saving the owners of other M-dogs locally much aggravation.

re Paddy's behavior + U condoning it, *encouraging* an intact-M dog of a breed well-known for 
same-sex aggro *to practice aggro* at such a young-age is asking for later [and worse] trouble. 
but this is of course, entirely Ur decision. i hope U have excellent liability coverage? 
vet-bills can be quite pricey, after one's dog chews the *#$%&*@!* out of another dog and the owner 
takes one to task - or to court. 
i also hope Ur proxy delight in Paddy's thuggish behavior is worth the price of admission, 
when all is said and done. 


classixuk said:


> Last year, if Paddy met an in-season bitch... I would have freaked and tried... my hardest
> to prevent him from doing what "he wanted to do". That includes jumping up at the owner
> if she picked the bitch up in her arms, as he did [previously].
> ...now, I'd simply walk over, smile... [clip] on his lead and walk [away]...
> ...


 what a delightful attitude, classix.  just for that, 
i'd sue for the dry-cleaning bill and/or the value of the clothing, plus emotional trauma. :001_tt2:

 i am so, so glad that the Atlantic lies between U + Ur dog, and my neighbors and clients, + their dogs - 
M or F, intact or not. :thumbup: that is deeply reassuring; i will sleep better, knowing that. 


classixuk said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I'd expect to see the owner restraining my dog by his collar if he comes up for a shag,
> and a holler of "Sorry mate...she's in season". I've no problem at all with that. It gives me a chance to go up,
> ...


and of course, Paddy won't mind in the least having a total stranger grab his collar - 
AND hold him off their delightfully tasty bit of crumpet? :huh: and U expect me to believe that they can 
continue to hold him off whilst U stroll the half-mile? *is he even in sight, if he is a half-mile off?!* 
frankly, i doubt it - and i don't make a habit of grabbing the collars of dogs who are acting hormonal.

i think i'll start carrying a 3-ft cattle-prod - *just in case* i should meet Ur local-equivalent, classix, 
or Ur dog's domestic counterpart - for safety's sake.  


classixuk said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> MALES:
> Once you're aware there is a bitch in season, and your dog has reacted, you need to *get some
> Vick's Vaporub and place a little under each nostril before his walks.* The Vicks blocks out 99% of the bitch smells.


Vicks Vaporub is very inflammatory to sinuses which are NOT slathered by a half-inch of mucoid goop - the fumes are meant 
to clear clogged sinuses, *by making them weep in irritation - washing the goop out - * and will BURN even 
relatively-insensitive human-membranes. 
i don't want to think about what those fumes would do to sensitive dog noses.  


classixuk said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> FEMALES:
> Once your bitch looks close to/is in/has just been in season, you need... this: [spray]


i have yet to find one of these sprays that works - period. 
not one of the owners who has tried any of the so-called bitch-sprays succeeded 
in reducing her popularity or reducing the Ms reactions to her scent. 
if they reacted in previous heats WITHOUT the spray, they reacted AFTER the spray, too.

has anyone with an intact-F found a spray that 
* does work 
* does not cause rashes, contact-irritation, etc? 
TIA, pleasant dreams, 
--- terry


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> and they would make delightful progeny, i am sure, classix. :blink:
> 
> goody for the Bichon owner - he gets to enjoy the mayhem, as a spectator; HE is not legally liable -
> but U are.
> ...


PMSL! I literally have tears streaming down my face. The neighbours will be wondering which channel I am watching.
So glad you survived the hurricane Terry, the world would be a duller place without you honey bunch. xxx
:thumbup: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

I heard a good analogy in response to this thread yesterday...

I've never had a fire but I still have fire detectors just in case. Although I never intend to have a fire (or play with fire) I cannot be 100% sure that an accident will not happen even though it hasn't happened yet.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

classixuk said:


> Bloody hell girls. Me and Bullet piss off for a week and you're at eachother's necks! LOL And who says women don't need men?
> 
> Anyway, for what it's worth, I can weigh in with a bit of anecdotal evidence about my own dog.
> 
> ...


*I remember when your paddy went through this,and remember thinking i'm glad i wasn't in your shoes.Now if people read what i've said i only asked why i have never come across this problem,i've not said it can't or doesn't exsist (sp)but it hasn't for me in my 40 years of having dogs.
Oh i'd better add,yes i know you have read what i said.haha*


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

alaun said:


> I heard a good analogy in response to this thread yesterday...
> 
> I've never had a fire but I still have fire detectors just in case. Although I never intend to have a fire (or play with fire) I cannot be 100% sure that an accident will not happen even though it hasn't happened yet.


Yet you probably drive a car or at least travel in one!


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

I've never owned a bitch but can't comment on that, but my male Max has been around bitches in season and shown no interest whatsoever, in fact he shows no interest in females full stop, according to him, you chase girls then bite their bums :lol:

It's a sad situation to be in really, 63 years old ( in hooman years ) a virgin and still living at home with Mum and Dad :lol:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'd use my common sence and not let the alsation near her.*


How? Especially if the Alsatian's owner is way out of sight because the dog has got a whiff of bitch in season scent and taken off?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> How? Especially if the Alsatian's owner is way out of sight because the dog has got a whiff of bitch in season scent and taken off?


Have to say i agree, not sure how succesful you would be at preventing a large dog from getting what he wanted if he was determined and he may not be too chuffed at being stopped, there was very little either of the people i knew could do to prevent the mating when it happened to them. :scared:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> How? Especially if the Alsatian's owner is way out of sight because the dog has got a whiff of bitch in season scent and taken off?


My dogs are always on a lead so the 1st thing would be to pick Mia up.I might add my hubby is with me when we walk the dogs.


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> How? Especially if the Alsatian's owner is way out of sight because the dog has got a whiff of bitch in season scent and taken off?


The alsatians owner shouldn't be out of sight imho, you'd like to think that the owner knows he takes off then he should be on a lead, especially around other dogs... I never let Max wander off so far that I can't see him, no way! I would feel that it's irresponsible of me. Taking responsibity works both ways surely? especially if your dog is off lead...


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I agree that the dog should not be out of sight. There are lots of other things dogs do that are 'instinct' and until the owner has good recall when these distractions are about the dog should be kept under closer control. Accidents happen but it is the dog owner that is 90 percent at fault. If you cant stop your dog going after a bitch can you stop it going after cats or squirrels or running children. It is instinct for the dog to run after something that is running - but it is not allowable.


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

Well we have had bitches not spayed and dogs have been neutered for 35yrs and can honestly say we have not had a problem with male dogs outside of our home.
We walk the bitches in season on private land or moorland and as yet not come across a problem

We would not walk the bitches in season in built up areas...due to male dogs.
But it would not enter our heads to not walk them in season for 3-4 weeks.

We did a have a farm dog enter our property over the 6ft wall some years back now and when I went out in our garden...he was there acting up to our girl...We took no chances and had her injected the next morning even although We dont think he had time to go there.
There will always be this problem with dogs and bitches......and people will never agree on this issue.....as so many different opinions on whats right and wrong.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

alaun said:


> I heard a good analogy in response to this thread yesterday...
> 
> I've never had a fire but I still have fire detectors just in case. Although I never intend to have a fire (or play with fire) I cannot be 100% sure that an accident will not happen even though it hasn't happened yet.


But what you can do is take sufficient practicable precautions to make sure the fire doesn't happen. And that's what this debate is about - what people feel are sufficient practicable precautions. And everyone feels different levels of precautions are adequate because they are judging the situation on the needs of their own bitches, on the way their own dogs react, and on the degree of control they have over their enitre male dogs.

It's all about being sensible and weighing up the likelihood of what might happen versus what happens most of the time. Running around like Chicken Licken, worried that the sky will fall in if you walk a dog in season or don't keep an entire male on a lead all the time he is being walked in case he catches the scent of a bitch in season, helps no-one, least of all the bitches who don't get walked, or the dogs who don't get let off the lead because their owners can't control them properly. Nothing that we do in this world is without risk. All we can do is minimise the risk to the best of our ability. And for me, not walking my bitches during the three or four days they are actually ready to accept a male, and making sure my entire males are under my control when out walking, is minimising the risk as much as it needs to be.

As I said earlier, I can see the argument from both sides because I both walk bitches in season (except for the three or four days they are actually presenting) and walk entire males who catch the scent of bitches in season. And the fact that nothing untoward has ever happened in 40+ years of doing this leads me to the sensible conclusion that yes, something may happen, but the likelihood of it doing so is much less than the likelihood of a bitch becoming stir crazy and bouncing off the walls through not being walked.

And btw, I'm not just talking about my bitches here - even though I have entire male dogs that can and do catch the scent of bitches in season, I fully accept that everyone has the right - or even the responsibility - to ensure a bitch in season gets adequate exercise.


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## Liteskye (Aug 10, 2009)

My girls always go out in the back garden as its very secure. If Sidney has to go out too the bitch in season will go into the kennel whilst he's out there.

As for taking them out when in season my God never would, as thats inviting trouble  

People say they never have any probs when they take their bitch out for a walk basically mean they haven't met an entire dog on their walk yet.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I don't have a problem with strays where I live and everyone walks there dogs on a lead, so I don't have any problems walking bitches in season on the roads and away from dogs off the lead.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Liteskye said:


> People say they never have any probs when they take their bitch out for a walk basically mean they haven't met an entire dog on their walk yet.


Not true Karen - I have always walked my girls when they are in season, except for the few days when they are actually presenting, and have done for 40+ years. The very worst thing that's happened in all that time is Evie sitting down very determinedly and growling at an amorous dog who pranced around her, ears erect, trying to impress her, until his owner caught up with him and put him on his lead. If a girl says no, she means no!


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## Liteskye (Aug 10, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Not true Karen - I have always walked my girls when they are in season, except for the few days when they are actually presenting, and have done for 40+ years. The very worst thing that's happened in all that time is Evie sitting down very determinedly and growling at an amorous dog who pranced around her, ears erect, trying to impress her, until his owner caught up with him and put him on his lead. If a girl says no, she means no!


PMSL Can imagine Evie doing that. I would never take my girls out because of all the idiots around here who let their dogs roam the streets. I'm trying to find a place to live where its more rural, so I would there.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

As an owner of both and someone who lives in a rural type city I know the pain people suffer.

Rusty-Unueterd-There's many who could not careless if their bitch is in season or not and may even let them off lead. It drives me mad as sometimes it's right by my house which starts a howling storm from Rusty. He will scream, howl, throw himself to the floor and try to take me with him if he catches wind of a female in season. 

Maya-Unspayed-I do walk her, not with rusty (well hell she's not allowed near rusty and is confined to the kitchen from then on) but I have to duck and dive from people, i've had dogs come running up even nueterd males wanting their way. Maya is highly aggressive in her season she will not tolerate any dog near her whether they are friends of not. Maya can also be very funny about other bitches in season. Maya is taken when people are not talking dogs and taken to none doggy areas, like into the tennis court etc. 


I can understand people walking them but I will not walk Maya in the field or any main areas. Rusty drives me insane and Barney was the same although no where near as bad as Rusty. I understand both sides of the tail but what I don't understand is people who are careless, i've come across far too many letting them off lead and me having to apolgize only to find out the dog is in season and the owners just seem to shrug it off! 

Anyone who dosen't see the harm is more than welcome to look after rusty and then tell me it's still ok to walk them in public dog areas. (it may be different in country areas, I do not know but there's allot of dogs here and it drives me crazy the lack of care tat goes on).


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> But what you can do is take sufficient practicable precautions to make sure the fire doesn't happen.


But you can take all those precautions you want. If someone comes along and decides to lob a match through your letter box. Like my dad always told me when I used to kick off about him always being "protective" (although at the time he was just being evil, not letting me do things...etc!) "Its not you I worry about, its the other people out there"

Personally I don't have an issue with Rupert as he's small so I can control him, but if someone is out walking an un neautered GSD...then that could cause issues!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Maya-Unspayed-I do walk her, not with rusty


Springerhusky - were you not going to get her spayed after the last accidental pregnancy she had?


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Springerhusky - were you not going to get her spayed after the last accidental pregnancy she had?


Let's put it like this it's easier said than done.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> But you can take all those precautions you want. If someone comes along and decides to lob a match through your letter box. Like my dad always told me when I used to kick off about him always being "protective" (although at the time he was just being evil, not letting me do things...etc!) "Its not you I worry about, its the other people out there"


Exactly - hence my next paragraph in the post you've quoted which starts _"It's all about being sensible and weighing up the likelihood of what might happen versus what happens most of the time ......"_


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

SpringerHusky said:


> Let's put it like this it's easier said than done.


Real responsible attitude you have there. You have a "highly aggressive" bitch who has already had one litter and you still leave her entire? wow.


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## Plabebob (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm sorry if this sounds selfish but it drives me insane when people walk bitches in heat near me. There is only 1 place where you can walk dogs offlead near my house, so everyone goes there. Recently there was a man walking his bitch in heat & all the dogs who were too young to have been done yet just legged it!

Aside from the obvious danger of unplanned mating, it just destroys the walk for a lot of people. Whenever I saw the man I simply had to go home as Tron just can't control himself... I was pretty pissed off to be honest! There's a park round there corner where you can have dogs on a lead so why couldn't he just go there instead of spoiling everyone's day grrr!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Exactly - hence my next paragraph in the post you've quoted which starts _"It's all about being sensible and weighing up the likelihood of what might happen versus what happens most of the time ......"_


But that's the point. It might not happen all the time, but all it takes is that little bit of laziness on someone elses behalf and bam, there you have it.

If you are confident enough to walk an on heat bitch and feel you could control an arising situation then fair enough. Not sure I would, hence I wouldn't do it, but each to their own. 



WeimyLady said:


> Real responsible attitude you have there. You have a "highly aggressive" bitch who has already had one litter and you still leave her entire? wow.


Erm, do you have an indepth knowledge as to why SpringerHusky has said it is easier said than done? There could be a multitude of reasons such as medical for not having her don, not just being irresponsible. Why jump to such conclusions?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

WeimyLady said:


> What baffles me is why people don't spay or neuter their pet dogs. If everyone spayed and neutered this problem would be significantly reduced. What is the point in keeping them entire if they are never going to pro-create and are physically mature (and therefore, there are few potential negatives of the spay/neuter)?
> 
> As for bitches, I have always let mine have a season first before spaying. I would always walk them when in season; a month with no exercise would be impossible. I would let them off lead, too. BUT, only in very quiet areas; areas where I would be unlucky to come across anyone else. I would drive there, too.


All mine are neutered i wouldnt have them any other way due to an awful experience with harvey before he was done, molly isnt but will be after her 2nd season.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I remember when your paddy went through this,and remember thinking i'm glad i wasn't in your shoes.Now if people read what i've said i only asked why i have never come across this problem,i've not said it can't or doesn't exsist (sp)but it hasn't for me in my 40 years of having dogs.
> Oh i'd better add,yes i know you have read what i said.haha*


If we can all reflect on this (above post) and think/look back to the opening thread, words have been twisted all through this thread or would rather like to think taken out of context. Ive heard much on this topic before and some seem to think its black and white, walk an in season bitch and you will have mayhem full stop, thats not true every dog is different some areas have more neutered dogs, some have the luxury of been able to walk in secluded areas or be able to walk at different times, its no black or white and the "you shouldnt walk your bitch when in season" is only to the ones it really applies to.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> But that's the point. It might not happen all the time, but all it takes is that little bit of laziness on someone elses behalf and bam, there you have it.


If you lived your whole life like that though, you would never do anything. For example, you could be walking along the street and a driver could mount the pavement - as you say, all it takes is that little bit of laziness on someone else's behalf and bam, there you have it. Does that stop you walking down a street? No, of course it doesn't. But it would if you applied the same sort of logic to walking down a street as you are applying to walking a bitch in season .

The whole point of my previous post was that yes, there is a risk, but it is miniscule, can be controlled, and is much less of a risk than a poor bitch going stir crazy.



Horse and Hound said:


> If you are confident enough to walk an on heat bitch and feel you could control an arising situation then fair enough. Not sure I would, hence I wouldn't do it, but each to their own.


Well, obviously I am confident enough to control the situation. And really, as I don't walk my bitches during the three or four days they are willing to stand, there is almost no risk of a "situation" arising - if a bitch is not willing to accept a male, then there could be fifty males prancing around her and there will be no "situation". Keeping a bitch incarcerated for the whole three to four weeks is unnecessary from the "danger to a bitch" point of view.

Now from the point of view of walking my entire males, they often get the goofy expression and chattering teeth that means they have picked up the scent of a bitch in season. So what? A sharp command and they are back at my side and on a lead until their attention is elsewhere.

I must admit I don't have much patience with owners of male dogs who complain about their dog's reaction to being walked where bitches in season have been walked. Bitches have seasons and dogs are interested - it's life, it's all part and parcel of owning a male dog, and if owners don't want to deal with this, then maybe they should have thought a bit more about whether or not a male dog was the correct gender for them?


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## CheatingRabbit (Sep 15, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Yet you probably drive a car or at least travel in one!


Yes, and she has car insurance too...

I fail to see your point, unless you are agreeing with Alaun in some obtuse fashion...

CR


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I keep reading on here how irresponcible some owners are for either walking their bitches in season or even letting them out in their own gardens unsupervised.Now i do both and have NEVER had entire males come after my Mia or come near my garden.If these 2 things are such bad things to do can some please explain why i don't come across this problem.*


I suppose it depends on where the bitches are walked when they're in season. From personal experience, on the fields there is a lady that exercises her dogs bringing the inseason bitches with her but leaded. Whilst this has caused me problems, at least (before neutering) I knew as soon as I saw one of her dogs on lead I knew it was inseason and would try to avoid her, she always keeps to the same small area so its not difficult to do. The problem I've had with others, is walking their in-season bitch all around the fields not just a small section of it, and when they think that no dogs are around even letting it off lead. Really sensible (not) when the area is covered in part with grasses 5ft high and woodland and bushes about.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Moderated and reopened as requested.

If this becomes personal, or goes massively off topic again, it will be closed for good.

Please just show a little respect for the opinions of others.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Moderated and reopened as requested.
> 
> If this becomes personal, or goes massively off topic again, it will be closed for good.
> 
> Please just show a little respect for the opinions of others.


See you have been doing a bit of pruning Nonnie
I am on my very best behaviour!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Thanks Nonnie for sorting it out,much appreciated.:thumbup:


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Ella has decided to come into season after 27mths!! She's 3 days today and i've seperated from the boys and walk her on her own away from anyone!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

CheatingRabbit said:


> Yes, and she has car insurance too...
> 
> I fail to see your point, unless you are agreeing with Alaun in some obtuse fashion...
> 
> CR


obviously my point is that driving a car has a lot more risk attached to it than walking an inseason bitch


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> If you lived your whole life like that though, you would never do anything. For example, you could be walking along the street and a driver could mount the pavement - as you say, all it takes is that little bit of laziness on someone else's behalf and bam, there you have it. Does that stop you walking down a street? No, of course it doesn't. But it would if you applied the same sort of logic to walking down a street as you are applying to walking a bitch in season .
> 
> The whole point of my previous post was that yes, there is a risk, but it is miniscule, can be controlled, and is much less of a risk than a poor bitch going stir crazy.
> 
> ...


I agree with every word!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dexter said:


> Ella has decided to come into season after 27mths!!
> She's 3 days today and i've seperated from the boys and walk her on her own away from anyone!


i don't understand - at all - Why she is intact? 
* she's obviously over 2-YO 
* she has wildly-erratic estrous - which is highly-heritable 
* she is IOW not a desirable dam...

but she's intact?  why? is she shown in conformation? 
flabbergasted, 
- terry


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> If you lived your whole life like that though, you would never do anything. For example, you could be walking along the street and a driver could mount the pavement - as you say, all it takes is that little bit of laziness on someone else's behalf and bam, there you have it. Does that stop you walking down a street? No, of course it doesn't. But it would if you applied the same sort of logic to walking down a street as you are applying to walking a bitch in season .
> 
> The whole point of my previous post was that yes, there is a risk, but it is miniscule, can be controlled, and is much less of a risk than a poor bitch going stir crazy.
> 
> ...


I agree.

I always walk my bitch when she's in season and we've never had an 'incident'.


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## Liteskye (Aug 10, 2009)

To be honest it bugs me when people decide to still take their bitch out that is in season especially when my lad gets a whiff of it. His an idiot at the best of times but as soon as he gets the scent of a bitch in season thats it his ten times worse lol. Its the same at shows when people decide to bring a bitch in season to a damned show  I can't blame my dog as its normal but I hate it when I see him get uptight and stressed.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Liteskye said:


> To be honest it bugs me when people decide to still take their bitch out that is in season especially when my lad gets a whiff of it. His an idiot at the best of times but as soon as he gets the scent of a bitch in season thats it his ten times worse lol. Its the same at shows when people decide to bring a bitch in season to a damned show  I can't blame my dog as its normal but I hate it when I see him get uptight and stressed.


I have always had intact dogs and not once had a problem with them,or the bitch and dog i have now.Thats why i have found this subject confusing.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> I have always had intact dogs and not once had a problem with them,or the bitch and dog i have now.Thats why i have found this subject confusing.


yes i do the more i read the posts the more i wonder maybe some dogs are more sensitive to a bitch in season, i dont know harvey was intact for 6yrs and we never had a problem. Odd


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> yes i do the more i read the posts the more i wonder maybe some dogs are more sensitive to a bitch in season, i dont know harvey was intact for 6yrs and we never had a problem. Odd


*You could be right there.I even thought perhaps its down to some being more "in tune" with their sence of smell.But my last gsd dog was very sensative with smell but i still didn't have a problem.Oh and at the time we had 2 intact female gsd's living next door.*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *You could be right there.I even thought perhaps its down to some being more "in tune" with their sence of smell.But my last gsd dog was very sensative with smell but i still didn't have a problem.Oh and at the time we had 2 intact female gsd's living next door.*


Mine been springers well what can i say about their sense of smell, sniffer dogs and all that, he would have smelt a bitch on heat when some wouldnt i would have thought well maybe this might start up a seperate issue of why some males are more sensitive. we'l see.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

Well my lad IS castrated! but being of the 'air scenting' variety he can pick up a wiff quarter of a mile downstream! As I said he is castrated so easier to control!! but thats not to say he's still not interested!, So those dogs that have been used at stud must be harder to control!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> yes i do the more i read the posts the more i wonder maybe some dogs are more sensitive to a bitch in season, i dont know harvey was intact for 6yrs and we never had a problem. Odd


Perhaps you have never come across a ready in season bitch? Perhaps dog owners where you live are courteous and thoughtful and don't walk their bitches in season.



> I have always had intact dogs and not once had a problem with them,or the bitch and dog i have now.Thats why i have found this subject confusing


I don't see what is confusing. Perhaps you have had dogs that aren't interested. There are some - I know of two dogs (a FTCH and a FTW) that would not mate, sadly for the owners as they could never get a puppy from them), but that's life, there those dogs that don't, but I don't think a handful of people on a forum is representative of all dogs. Some dogs are aggressive - does that mean because a few are, it must mean all dogs are like that? No, it's the minority. Count yourself lucky you haven't had a problem or an accidental pregnancy if you've been keeping entire dogs together and neither has shown any interest in the other or you've not had an accidental pregnancy - there are plenty more who have.

The bottom line is that is can and frequently does cause problems, not just accidental pregnancies (there are quite a few posts on this forum from people who it's happened to so that should be some indication (unless you chose to ignore that) but the fact is that inseason bitches being walked around other dogs are at risk and also cause problems for other dogs, particularly young male dogs - it can change their temperament around bitches and cause them to pester them even when not in season.

It is of course, personal choice, no one can make an owner take care of their in season bitch, but ultimately, there are those who care about thier bitches AND other dog walkers and are courteous and avoid dog walking areas with an in season bitch and there are those who do what they like because they think they are entitled to do what they want or it won't happen to them, and more likely than not, either suffer the consequences themselves or make problems for other dog walkers. Saying that you've never had a problem is not enough in my book, because unless you wait all day where you have walked, you won't know the problems you have left for other dog walkers when they pick up the trail of your in season bitch.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> So those dogs that have been used at stud must be harder to control!


If a bitch is ready, then yes, they are experienced and the act can happen in seconds, although the other side of that is that an experienced stud dog has usually learnt when a bitch is ovulating and will show no interest through the season unless the bitch is ovulating -so narrowing it down to a few days, whereas an inexperienced dog will tend to be affected throughout the season.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Perhaps you have never come across a ready in season bitch? Perhaps dog owners where you live are courteous and thoughtful and don't walk their bitches in season.
> 
> I don't see what is confusing. Perhaps you have had dogs that aren't interested. There are some - I know of two dogs (a FTCH and a FTW) that would not mate, sadly for the owners as they could never get a puppy from them), but that's life, there those dogs that don't, but I don't think a handful of people on a forum is representative of all dogs. Some dogs are aggressive - does that mean because a few are, it must mean all dogs are like that? No, it's the minority. Count yourself lucky you haven't had a problem or an accidental pregnancy if you've been keeping entire dogs together and neither has shown any interest in the other or you've not had an accidental pregnancy - there are plenty more who have.
> 
> ...


*I'm sorry but i and others have only stated that we haven't come across this problem.Nobody and myself included have not said their isn't,or can't be a problem.I'm asking why some have had problems and some don't.As for being lucky,40+ years with no problems and taking my dogs to various places,to me is something more than luck.Hence my reason for this thread.If we don't ask these question surely we will never understand why.*


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I'm sorry but i and others have only stated that we haven't come across this problem.Nobody and myself included have not said their isn't,or can't be a problem.I'm asking why some have had problems and some don't.As for being lucky,40+ years with no problems and taking my dogs to various places,to me is something more than luck.Hence my reason for this thread.If we don't ask these question surely we will never understand why.


I think you'll find I've answered that - some dogs don't show an interest - I did say I know two dogs that were approached to be used at stud (a FTCH and a FTW) and neither would mate. 40+ years of dog owning may sound a lot, but compared to the hundreds of thousands of dogs out owned in the UK it is a drop in the ocean and hardly representative. The fact that there are far more dogs that DO have a problem should be indicative but you dont' seem to want to see that.  Unless you have all your dogs examined and observed, no one can say why it hasn't happened to you (although I did say that just cos it hasn't happened in your presence doesn't mean other dogs walking where you walked your bitch didn't have a problem - you wouldn't have been there to witness it).

With your own bitch that your dog shows an interest in (which is typical of an inexperienced male throughout), but have never had a mating, then it's likely she isn't ovulating and reaching that point where a mating would take place, but without tests and examinations you won't know for sure. It's also quite common for an inexperienced dog not to mate a dog they are living with, particularly if the bitch is the more dominant one. The only way to tell for sure is to get her progesterone tested which will measure her progesterone levels and tell you when she ovulates. The in house vet ones are unreliable, so you will need to take blood from her and send to Idexx. Usually from about day 8 and then every couple of days until she reaches the level sufficient to say that ovulation has taken place. Not a cheap option but the only way you'll know.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

Rocco
could it be possible that if the bitch were exceptionally clean that this would make any difference?

DT


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I don't think so - their sense of smell is too acute. They can be confused though - especially if not used at stud. I have a boy that took a huge amount of interest in a bitch that (as it turned out) had infected anal glands . The bitch was spayed so and it was my boy's attention that prompted the owner to take her to the vet. (BTW - he's never been used at stud - and is a complete prude only ever showing interest in my bitches when they are ready and even then is very half hearted about it - both when he was entire and now he is neutered)

Dogs are individuals and some (a few) really aren't interested. Also, particularly if they live together, they will often not mate a bitch because the pecking order has been established. Don't forget, in the wild, they are not all at it all the time - only the alpha dogs and bitches will mate.  Domestic situations don't allow for this often, so it is more confusing for the dog.

Edited to add - some bitches do not ovulate. They still have seasons, but the levels of progesterone required for ovulation are never reached.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think until you experience a real problem, you may just blithely carry on, because you don't experience the same situation other dog owners find themselves in after you've walked past and left a lovely smell in your wake (well not you, but your dogs, chuckle). I haven't ever owned a dog, but I respect the fact that a number of other owners of dogs, entire or neutered, would have a problem should I decide to take my in season bitch out round a popular dog walking area. And as the owner of a bitch who scent marks over the top of other bitches and dogs, and even on occasions will cock her leg to do so, I know how frustrating it can be just owning a bitch who finds these type of scents irresistible. She's not likely to take after an in season bitch, and although she's been spayed, she's always the one inexperienced dogs try it on with......

So I choose not to make my problem of owning an in season bitch, the problem of a number of other people as well, and I think that's the crux of the matter. 

Rocco33, interestingly, when I was finding more out about the pedigrees of my girls, there was a dog used that was both retired from showing and use as a stud dog, because he genuinely was happier just being a pet.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

I had intact bitches for a total of 24 years, walked them away from other dogs and only once had trouble with a dog, but boy when it happened was he determined.
No owner in sight and I had to have both him and my in season bitch in my car :scared:
I was lucky that his temperament was impeccable


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> So I choose not to make my problem of owning an in season bitch, the problem of a number of other people as well, and I think that's the crux of the matter


Well said



> I had intact bitches for a total of 24 years, walked them away from other dogs


I think that is the key, Rona, you walked them away from other dogs. I wouldn't dream of walking my bitches in season on our normal walk. Even if I never meet other dogs (which I do frequently), there will be others walking after us which will pick up the trail left by mine. I walk mine at the beginning and end of the season (never when they are ovulating) but I take them elsewhere where there are no dogs around. It only takes a bit of care, courtesy for other dogs walkers and thinking how you can get out where your bitch won't be a bother to others.

Some of the confusion may be because people assume that 
inseason bitch + entire dog = automatic mating.
It doesn't work like that - they are not machines. Even in planned supervised matings with experienced dogs, perhaps only half will be like that. Others range from the bitch spending time getting to know the dog, perhaps being held lightly to what I would consider downright rape. That is the reality - it is not as straightforward as people think, in spite of the number of accidents we read about here. That doesn't, however, mean that because nothing is guaranteed to happen, it is acceptable to risk your bitch and risk causing problems (sometimes serious life threatening ones) to other dog walkers.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i walk my in season bitch but only at the beginning and the end of the season and at that time she stays on the long line. I never walk her when she is the most fertile, and my male tells me when she is lol 

Im lucky that where i walk i hardly meet any dogs anyway.

But i can exactly tell if someone else walked their in season bitch cause my male and maya too are always drawn to where the dog urinated and kinda get obsessed with it licking the pee etc and recall and obedience overall is more difficult at that point. 

When my bitch is in the middle of her season i cant even walk my male cause he keeps dancing like a loonatic on the lead just wanting to get back home moaning so loud its actually embarrassing to walk him lol

So both are confined to excersice in the garden in that time which is not a problem here as we are lucky to have a large garden with agility equipment to tire them out physically and mentally.

I never would leave maya in her season unsupervised in the garden either. My garden is secure so i have no worries of dogs coming in but i still dont want to chance it cause u never know .. the stories i have heard what dogs do to get to a bitch.

I once met a bitch off lead in the park which run up straight to us... which made it soooo difficult for us to handle 2 large dogs. It was a struggle to get them back to the car cause cobi was so wound up nothing we did would calm him down  
Well... and the pair with the bitch in season didnt even see our struggle to the car they just wandered off happily continuing their walk.

So if my dog smells a in season bitch he gets all wound up, obedience is kinda out of the window. He will come back only when i really raise my voice but even then he just doenst take his nose off the ground the whole walk through and basiclly thinks twice about if he should come back or not lol

So it does make the life others more difficult, and its part off responsible ownership imo not to walk the bitch in season, just like u would put ur dog on the lead when u see another one just to be polite and responsible to avoid any possible trouble.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> The bottom line is that is can and frequently does cause problems ........ Saying that you've never had a problem is not enough in my book, because unless you wait all day where you have walked, you won't know the problems you have left for other dog walkers when they pick up the trail of your in season bitch.





Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think until you experience a real problem, you may just blithely carry on, because you don't experience the same situation other dog owners find themselves in after you've walked past and left a lovely smell in your wake (well not you, but your dogs, chuckle)..


You both seem to be conveniently ignoring posts such as mine, which talk about experiencing BOTH sides of the problem. I walk bitches in season (except for the four days when they are ready to accept males) AND I walk entire males who catch the scent of bitches in season. I have been doing this for more years than I care to remember, and I have experienced NO problems with the entire males, because my dogs are well-trained and walked under control. So saying to me that I don't know what problems I cause when I walk my in-season bitch is just silly. The kinds of problems people will experience by me walking an in-season bitch are going to be the same problems I experience with my entire males because of other people walking an in-seaosn bitch - ie no problems at all.

And saying that you can just carry on until you do meet a problem - well, let's get that into perspective. No problems yet in almost 40 years - hmmm, send that to the Risk Department in any business and the risk will come back as negligible.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> You both seem to be conveniently ignoring posts such as mine, which talk about experiencing BOTH sides of the problem. I walk bitches in season (except for the four days when they are ready to accept males) AND I walk entire males who catch the scent of bitches in season. I have been doing this for more years than I care to remember, and I have experienced NO problems with the entire males, because my dogs are well-trained and walked under control. So saying to me that I don't know what problems I cause when I walk my in-season bitch is just silly. The kinds of problems people will experience by me walking an in-season bitch are going to be the same problems I experience with my entire males because of other people walking an in-seaosn bitch - ie no problems at all.
> 
> And saying that you can just carry on until you do meet a problem - well, let's get that into perspective. No problems yet in almost 40 years - hmmm, send that to the Risk Department in any business and the risk will come back as negligible.


I'm not ignoring your posts, or anyone's posts for that matter. Can I ask you though, how do you know, 100% that you do not cause a problem for other dog walkers by taking your inseason bitches out?? If you're happy taking them out, and you're happy they're not causing a problem, then there's no reason not to. Geez, really, after meeting someone who has owned dogs for nearly 50 years lecture me on not giving my dogs raw chicken, I really don't count the years of dog ownership as a qualification, more what you've actually learnt during your time owning dogs, or any animal for that matter.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> You both seem to be conveniently ignoring posts such as mine, which talk about experiencing BOTH sides of the problem. I walk bitches in season (except for the four days when they are ready to accept males) AND I walk entire males who catch the scent of bitches in season. I have been doing this for more years than I care to remember, and I have experienced NO problems with the entire males, because my dogs are well-trained and walked under control. So saying to me that I don't know what problems I cause when I walk my in-season bitch is just silly. The kinds of problems people will experience by me walking an in-season bitch are going to be the same problems I experience with my entire males because of other people walking an in-seaosn bitch - ie no problems at all.
> 
> And saying that you can just carry on until you do meet a problem - well, let's get that into perspective. No problems yet in almost 40 years - hmmm, send that to the Risk Department in any business and the risk will come back as negligible.


Not ignoring your posts at all, my dogs are also well trained and under control. And apart from chattering of teeth, drooling and having to use somewhat firmer commands than I would normally need to do, I have not encountered problems either. I would add that the average pet dog is NOT trained to the level of mine.

Saying I don't know what problems someone causes (I wasn't referring specifically to you), is not silly at all. Do you stand there all day and see what happens with other dogs when they come across your bitch's scent?



> The kinds of problems people will experience by me walking an in-season bitch are going to be the same problems I experience with my entire males because of other people walking an in-seaosn bitch - ie no problems at all.


Sorry, but saying other people with males will not experience problems simply because you don't IS silly  Not all dogs are like yours, and from what you are saying, there would be no accidental pregnancies.... If only


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

One of my boys, (almost 12 and castrated at 9 months) is very reactive to in season bitches.

About a year ago i met a woman with a pair of springers. For the most part Oscar is disinterested in other dogs, but this time he made a beeline for this pair. Turned out the bitch was in season, and the other dog was a full male and the "stud".

Its the one time ive ever been truly thankful that Oz has 3 legs, because had he been fully able to catch up with the male springer, i think he would have attacked it, a rarity in itself as although he can be a git, he has never been openly aggressive with other dogs.

For at least 20 mins he was chasing and trying to mount the bitch, or was chasing and trying to attack the male. Neither myself or the springers owner could get hold of our dogs. We just didnt exist to them at that time.

I was terrfied it would be too much for his heart, and he was a right pain in the ass for a good week after that.

Ive occassionally had the suspicion that an inseason bitch has been about in the main field i walk in, as both of mine will go into track mode with lots of licking and what i call their Hannibal Lector impressions. 

Oddly though, the vast majority of dogs in my area (well ones we meet anyway) are male.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm not ignoring your posts, or anyone's posts for that matter. Can I ask you though, how do you know, 100% that you do not cause a problem for other dog walkers by taking your inseason bitches out?? If you're happy taking them out, and you're happy they're not causing a problem, then there's no reason not to. Geez, really, after meeting someone who has owned dogs for nearly 50 years lecture me on not giving my dogs raw chicken, I really don't count the years of dog ownership as a qualification, more what you've actually learnt during your time owning dogs, or any animal for that matter.


Ok then: I'm happy to use your terminology. Instead of me using all my years of experience to add weight to a point, let me say instead that _what I've learned during my years of owning dogs_ is that other people walking in-season bitches has never caused problems to me walking my entire males. It is, therefore, perfectly logical and sensible to assume that me walking an in-season bitch has caused the same amount of trouble (ie no trouble) to other people walking enitre males.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Well, there's always those jaunty little 'in-season-knickers'.
Don't they come in a rather fetching shiny silver? :lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Gemmaa said:


> Well, there's always those jaunty little 'in-season-knickers'.
> Don't they come in a rather fetching shiny silver? :lol:


my bitch won't wear silver-lame', she says it's trashy.  she has worn pearls in daylight, tho; 
her opinions re taste may be invalid. her sister wants ostrich-plume and maribou-trim, she's a Cher-fan.


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