# ART: where are the men in reward-training?



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Men in Training


> In the world of positive rewards based training a subject that seems to come up often is the dearth of men
> in canine classrooms. In my talks with trainers both online and in the real world many people have commented
> on this and even gone so far as to say that men seem to be more attracted to training methods like those employed
> by Cesar Milan.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Men in Training



> I attempted to explain the types of instruction that I believe a man of my age & experiences is familiar with.
> [snip] I would like to... describe what I perceive are barriers & misnomers that may prevent men in general
> from exploring the type of positive rewards-based training I now embrace.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Have to say that all the courses and seminars, training weekends etc I attended, men were usually in the minority. Of the two that attended a college course I attended for several months (City & Guilds in Canine Studies) only one out of the 16 in my class was male. 

Most of the time in my classes it was women training the dogs. If men attended, they often sat on the sidelines watching their wives train the dog. Those men who did come along to train their dog normally did pretty well to be honest.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> If men attended, they often sat on the sidelines watching their wives train the dog.
> Those men who [came] to train their dog [usually] did pretty well to be honest.


just wanted to clarify that the classes were not about training 'normally',  but that the guys usually did well.

i think it's a darned shame that guys just don't seem to find a real partnership with their dog to be appealing. 
WHEN THEY HAVE ONE - they love it; it's something about the - process? techniques? tools? :nonod: 
i dunno - whatever it is, it gets in the way and they don't want to come along. 
yet if U can get them started, even a little, they think it's terrific - not as brag-worthy as wrestling the dog into 
abject submission, but a lot more fun & their clothes & skin don't get punctured & spring leaks.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> just wanted to clarify that the classes were not about training 'normally',  but that the guys usually did well.
> 
> i think it's a darned shame that guys just don't seem to find a real partnership with their dog to be appealing.
> WHEN THEY HAVE ONE - they love it; it's something about the - process? techniques? tools? :nonod:
> ...


Not in my experience. I'm at a training seminar on Sunday. 9 guys and 1 gal, there will be no wrestling, shouting, screaming, prong collars, e-collars and there will be no bragging about how to wrestle dogs. There will be no high pitched squeaky voices either, but normal voices used as in everyday life, with maybe an odd OI!! If praise is required it will be low voiced and a hands on applied stroke of either chest or head.
And I think my co-trainees and I would prefer not to be stereotyped.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Reading that article, it does not agree with my experience in non-team sports, or with instruction and coaching practices in specifically ski-ing & athletics both technical disciplines. Perhaps more confrontational games like Rugby and American Football are different. Similarly University education did not involve the tactics of the intimidating shoddy school teachers still around for the baby boom generation.

In fact emphasis was from my memory of Instructor & Coach courses (after safety and choosing low distraction learning area) on :

1) Explaining in positive manner focussing on improvements; poor instructors told what was wrong, rather than what to try and do to perform better
2) Keeping instruction fun
3) Break new tasks into small steps
4) Be clear, calm and polite
5) Praise the performers successes, and not dwell on failure once it's recognised; that is be encouraging and supportive

Sound familiar?

As for rigid "Black & White" instruction in Ski-ing there's an old book which became a classic and over-turned the position based thinking, for a much freer and natural athletic balance - 
Buy Book Online - HOW THE RACERS SKI. by Warren Witherell








His personality seems rather like Dr Iain Dunbar to from what I've seen, though I only have Witherel's words to go on, not video.

From what I've seen of the dog training scene, I suspect it's female dominated because it's hard to match a guaranteed salaried income of other professions from it and flexible working and part time work opportunities attracts women with family commitments.

I also wonder if Dog training, might bring out the worst in many people; absolute power corrupts absolutely idea. Alternatively perhaps the profession attracts some men with relatively low social skills and real confidence who thus gravitate to a coercive relationship with animals, and they over compensate by bluster, posturing and power demonstrations on dogs?


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

grandad said:


> Not in my experience. I'm at a training seminar on Sunday. 9 guys and 1 gal, there will be no wrestling, shouting, screaming, prong collars, e-collars and there will be no bragging about how to wrestle dogs. There will be no high pitched squeaky voices either, but normal voices used as in everyday life, with maybe an odd OI!! If praise is required it will be low voiced and a hands on applied stroke of either chest or head.
> And I think my co-trainees and I would prefer not to be stereotyped.


I have to agree with Terry on this one, although I am male too! Most of the people who get into the reward based training methods are women. That doesn't mean that there's no men, only that on average there's more women. At one of Dr Ian Dunbar's seminars, there was only a few guys out of maybe 50-60 people?

One thing men do have trouble with in training is *letting go*. Women can do the squeaky voices, the over-enthusiastic praise and make themselves a lot more interesting than some men who just stand there are demand things. And, no offense grandad, but shouting 'OI' is a prime example of this. I don't see 1) the need or 2) the positive effect of this kind of punishment. In my experience it either just suppresses a behaviour or scares the dog, or in some instances sends the dog off into an adrenaline junky rampage- not effecting training either way!


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Rottiefan- I had you down as a female. Must have been because of your sentitive side


P.s agree with what you said.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> One thing men do have trouble with in training is *letting go*


Hmmm, and there's me jumping up and down, and doing funny voices to get attention of women's dogs for them on occassion in public parks, because of their inability to be *"interesting enough in the situation"*. Even the last "A Different Breed" showed the lady leading CDPOMs loose a large dog, and *not* "let go" to retrieve it, in quite a funny clip she was ineffectually chasing round after it.

In the dog training club I went to last summer, it seemed 50:50 with the male members, having no problem doing the squeaky stuff.

Outside of that, I suspect there's an element of "I know how to train dogs" and they're not wanting so much to go to classes, for a group activity.

Adam Palmer's video clips, showed some pretty unsympathetic female trainers, so personally I think using gender as a predictor is hoeey. I've seen plenty of unthinking dangerous rather abusive behaviour carried out by women, when out and about to; and I don't think they're better than men and not losing their temper in frustration.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Hmmm, and there's me jumping up and down, and doing funny voices to get attention of women's dogs for them on occassion in public parks, because of their inability to be *"interesting enough in the situation"*. Even the last "A Different Breed" showed the lady leading CDPOMs loose a large dog, and *not* "let go" to retrieve it, in quite a funny clip she was ineffectually chasing round after it.
> 
> In the dog training club I went to last summer, it seemed 50:50 with the male members, having no problem doing the squeaky stuff.
> 
> ...


I'm just basing what I say on my own experiences, to be honest. They very well may be sweeping generalisations. I known quite a few male behaviourists- good ones- but on the scale of things, it appears to be more women. That doesn't mean it's significant though, I suppose!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> WHEN THEY HAVE ONE - they love it; it's something about the - process? techniques? tools? :nonod:
> i dunno - whatever it is, it gets in the way and they don't want to come along.
> yet if U can get them started, even a little, they think it's terrific


I'll suggest it's *laziness*. R+ sounds like it's long winded and too much effort, it's the core complaint by those promoting forceful short cut alternatives.

If you regard taking dog out, or training it as a chore, that interferes with watching the game whilst sipping a beer, rather than an enjoyable activity, it explains the often shockingly lazy coach potatoe Husbands shown on Naughty Doggie TV to.

Men tend to focus more, but enjoy play activities, so if they get involved to poiunt of enjoying it, then they find it "terrific".


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> on the scale of things, it appears to be more women. That doesn't mean it's significant though, I suppose!


I agree with you based on survey of professional dog training, but think that's explained by the relatively family friendly, flexible & part time work opportunites and possibly low remuneration when starting out.

I'm just going by how much we've spent on courses.. once you factor in the likely costs, with number of staff around, I don't see it being very lucrative.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I would say that on the behaviour and training courses, seminar days etc I've been on, men are in the minority.
HOWEVER, when it comes to agility courses, seminars and training days, this is not so much the case


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> I have to agree with Terry... although I am male too! Most of the people who get into
> the reward based-training methods are women. That doesn't mean that there's no men, only that on average
> there's more women. At [a Dunbar seminar], there was only a few guys out of maybe 50-60 people?


i'm not trying to stereotype, only saying what i've seen - and sadly, more guys get into Dawg-Wrassler wannabe 
or Sit-Means-S*it or prong-collar checking or other traditional-type training: choke-chains, emphasis on *correcting*
rather than teaching, & so on; it's not that there are no men in reward-training, it's that they are so few - 
While WW-2 era techniques, maybe with some new packaging, seem to have much more male-appeal.

i wish it were not so - and i wonder how to make reward-training more appealing or more open to men?


Rottiefan said:


> ...men do have trouble... *letting go*. Women can do the squeaky voices,
> the over-enthusiastic praise & make themselves a lot more interesting than some men who just stand there
> [and] demand things. ...no offense grandad, but shouting 'OI' is a prime example...
> I don't see 1) the need or 2) the positive effect of this kind of punishment. In my experience it either just suppresses
> ...


high-pitched happy voices are a nice option, but the only time they seem to be really needed is for recall, especially when 
the pup or dog is past 3 or 4-MO & there are distractions, even mild ones; they're just not competing effectively 
with the environs if the guys stand tall & frontal, look commanding & shout, _*'Trevor, COME...',*_ cuz Trevor's not 
into him right now, & looking vaguely threatening won't help.  bummer.

loosening up & having some fun is a definite consideration, tho - maybe it's personal dignity, something like 
the fact that men have a hard-time dancing in public?... i am purely guessing here, i honestly don't know.

i have such a good time with dogs AND owners, especially pups, that i never think about what i look like  
which is probly just as well, frankly; doing the contact-lens search in the grass for a total stranger's dog in a park 
is not exactly dignified, & when the dog comes bounding over & slobbers in my ear & hair while the owner tries to 
clip the leash on, it does not improve my coiffure.

Oh, well - i have some personal dignity, but it is mostly concerning HOW I AM TREATED, not 'how i act' or how i am 
perceived - i am upset by people who treat me rudely, but i am also the only adult in my family who would play horsey 
for my nephews at family get-togethers :lol: including whinnying & rearing while on all-4s with a kid on my back, 
or trotting with a high hackney-action on 2 legs with a squealing kid on my shoulders... so yeah, not much dignity 
re my clothes, behavior, & so on.

people will think what they will - acting like a Saint will not save me from critical judgment, if anything it may 
make me even more-likely to be criticized. [shrug] acting goofy to make a dog happy & get their attention 
is really not scary to me  i do what works, observers think whatever they will!


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i'm not trying to stereotype, only saying what i've seen - and sadly, more guys get into Dawg-Wrassler wannabe
> or Sit-Means-S*it or prong-collar checking or other traditional-type training: choke-chains, emphasis on *correcting*
> rather than teaching, & so on; it's not that there are no men in reward-training, it's that they are so few -
> While WW-2 era techniques, maybe with some new packaging, seem to have much more male-appeal.
> ...


Perhaps you might go a little easier on people that don't always see things your way. I think you come across as condescending, tend to put people into stereotypical box's and anything outside your particular box tends to be attacked. Personally I wouldn't train with you. R+ or anything else you promoted, I get the impression i would be treated as a little child and not an adult.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Men in Training



> Although generalities, I believe that much of the following rings true.
> 
> * [men] accept punishment as part of the learning process.
> * Discipline is part and parcel of being a good man.
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Men in Training 
* Capture their Interest

* Teach in man-speak


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Although generalities, I believe that much of the following rings true.

* [men] accept punishment as part of the learning process.
* Discipline is part and parcel of being a good man.
* [men] are taught to be leaders. Step Up and Take Charge are phrases repeated to us early and often.
* [men] accept that confrontation is sometimes part of achieving a desirable outcome.

...entries listed in Glossary of Terms from Cesars Way...
* Calm-assertive-energy
* Exercise, discipline, and affection in that order
* Master the walk
* Rules, boundaries, and limitations

...couple these with other popular Cesar aphorisms like Be Pack Leader and Claim Your Space, 
[&] its easy to see that Cesar already seems to speak a language that [men are] familiar with. 
[SNIP] 
The simple fact is that [men] are pulled towards things that are familiar to us.

You could also put the word (women) in those brackets. I think, (not totally sure) having watched CM's series, that there seems to be a lot more (women) clients than men. I think the articles make for interesting reading, but the generalisations of the male species was I thought condescending. Remember Men are from mars and women are from venus. That's what makes the world go round. If we were all the same, how boring would that be? 
I don't talk to my dog in a high pitched squeeky voice, it makes him go hyper and he gets an adrenalin rush. So tend to just give him a good lad and a rub of the chest. Seems to suffice


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Dare one suggest it is because men are natural born control freaks?


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## arlow (Apr 20, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> I think using gender as a predictor is hoeey. I've seen plenty of unthinking dangerous rather abusive behaviour carried out by women, when out and about to; and I don't think they're better than men and not losing their temper in frustration.


I agree. We tried some trainers in town that came highly recommended. A married couple, their website extolled their gentle methods and emphasized building a good relationship with one's dog. They rejected the use of all "devices", no prongs, ecollars, haltis or harnesses. They would only use a standard leash and flat collar.

By luck of the draw, we got to work with the wife. Was she ever a bully! It's amazing how much damage one can do with just a least and voice. On the other hand, when we watched their videos, we got to see the husband work. He used the same methods but was infinitely kinder and gentler.

So, while it might be interesting to note the general differnces between men and women, I think too much can be made of it. The observations in that article may be generally true, but there are far too many exceptions for it to offer any meaningful insight, in my view.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Dare one suggest it is because men are natural born control freaks?


I hope that was said "tongue in cheek"


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

As a senior and very experienced trainer in my field of work I encounter different approaches to learning and have found that whilst not wishing to stereotype people, there tend to be some similarities in an approach to learning a new way of doing things.

However there are most definitely different approaches to progressing in their learning patterns/behaviour. 

Men tend to like an 'instant' reward and receive praise by appealing to their 'macho' beliefs - I like to show I can be in control, NOW.
Women tend to have a considered approach to rewards and like to receive praise on a softer level - positive stroking and lots of feedback on performance - I like to be shown I CAN be in control.

Whilst this is a massive generalisation I do perceive trends in training style both in giving and receiving. I would hazard a guess that to translate that to dog training you wouldn't be far off the mark with considering this against why there are fewer men in this training malarky - men like instant gratification, if not received think it doesn't work and shut off and withdraw form the process, and women don't always get the feedback from the behaviour training that they need to give them 'permission' to continue BUT because they like to explore a lot more of the 'WHY' about failure and more open and receptive to different approaches. Reward based training appeals more to this side of 'it's working so I like why it's working' and so will continue.

Phew - my longest post yet, I believe:001_smile:


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Oh, forgot to say, I work in an overtly male dominated industry so tend to meet my fair share of 'macho' boys


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Dare one suggest it is because men are natural born control freaks?


Shut up and pass the remote


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> Oh, forgot to say, I work in an overtly male dominated industry so tend to meet my fair share of 'macho' boys


I've met a few macho women in my time  frightened me to death  maneater's every one of them


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Letting go is part of it. It's difficuly to "look cool" and "go crazy" at the same time. I'm a nutbar in the first place so don't have the problem. I "go crazy" with my kids and embarass them at every opportunity. . When they were babies I'd lie on my back kicking my feet in the air making stupid noises.. anything to make them laugh... people over didn't matter. By contrast the guy over the road simply couldn't do it... he was an accountant ... and he's now divorced.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

diefenbaker said:


> Letting go is part of it. It's difficuly to "look cool" and "go crazy" at the same time. I'm a nutbar in the first place so don't have the problem. I "go crazy" with my kids and embarass them at every opportunity. . When they were babies I'd lie on my back kicking my feet in the air making stupid noises.. anything to make them laugh... people over didn't matter.


Got one of them too - sure he does it to embarrass me and not my son :tongue_smilie:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Irish Setter Gal:
> Men tend to like an 'instant' reward & receive praise by appealing to their 'macho' beliefs - I like to show
> I can be in control, NOW. _Women tend to have a considered approach to rewards & like to receive praise on a softer level -
> positive stroking and lots of feedback on performance - I like to be shown I CAN be in control._
> ...


sounds plausible to me.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Did a quick survey on small ads board in the local Kennelgate shop, when I was passing by.

Was amazed how many training, walking & petsitting services there were, I'd never heard of, or stumbled across via net search. Whenever a name was visible about 50% of them, it was feminine, one that didn't mention a name, was I think a woman I met a month or so ago nearby.

Most of the ads seemed aimed at appealing to the caring side, didn't see one DW or authoratarian style Ad. I am left wondering if being *male* is a disadvantage, because of the high visibility of forceful or bootcamp style trainers based on military or police service dogs. Ironically the only local class by an ex-police trainer that I heard of, is a woman, but I haven't seen the couple and dog for ages to check on the style used, it may be just as "cuddly" and rewards based as other courses available.

I do know the most long standing trainer in area has moved off choke chains and emphasises rewards in her Ads. Seems at least in the marketing I've seen, that kind & humane is what's selling in my area. Possibly because the old school grumps, who object to "bribery and corruption" don't pay for courses, knowing everything already?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Did a quick survey on small ads board in the local Kennelgate shop, when I was passing by.
> 
> Was amazed how many training, walking & petsitting services there were, I'd never heard of, or stumbled across via net search. Whenever a name was visible about 50% of them, it was feminine, one that didn't mention a name, was I think a woman I met a month or so ago nearby.
> 
> ...


Best way I have found to learn about their training methods is to find their website and see if they talk about being your dog's pack leader. They are the ones to run from, whether they use rewards or not. They obviously haven't kept up with things.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Well I think these ppl I looked at were the small start ups, mostly without websites; some hotmail addresses and such like, or website hosted on moonfruit or similar.

Cottage industry feel, as I'm walking my dog's best pal this week, it was a bit funny to see Ads, asking £6/hr (£10 with walk overnight sit). Learning too much, has kind of made me anxious; though I had a good impression of the pro-sitter/walker I met, from way she handled a KC spaniel.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Well I think these ppl I looked at were the small start ups, mostly without websites; some hotmail addresses and such like, or website hosted on moonfruit or similar.
> 
> Cottage industry feel, as I'm walking my dog's best pal this week, it was a bit funny to see Ads, asking £6/hr (£10 with walk overnight sit). Learning too much, has kind of made me anxious; though I had a good impression of the pro-sitter/walker I met, from way she handled a KC spaniel.


I have seen one or two new dog walking services advertised in my area. Thing is, Rob, not everyone knows how to walk a dog. I think some people think it is an easy way to get a little extra money, but they wouldn't know what to do if there was a fight or if the dog tried to pull them over.

A friend of mine, not a dog owner, thought she would be able to do dog walking. I let her hold Joshua's lead once and I have never seen anything quite like it, really, the way she was holding the lead right up to her chest. Then once when we were on the heath a border collie came tearing over to say hello and she froze! I told her to try cat sitting instead! I wouldn't trust anyone else with my dogs, and Ferdie won't go with anyone but me anyway.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Thing is, Rob, not everyone knows how to walk a dog. I think some people think it is an easy way to get a little extra money, but they wouldn't know what to do if there was a fight or if the dog tried to pull them over


You might well be right. I spend couple of hourse, virtually every day in prime dog walking park and not seen one obvious pro walker, the only one I could tell when I offered bag disposal, as she scooped in street (far from public bins).

The other great dog park, I went to lots during calving season, and again no sign of actual dog walking services operating.

Now perhaps, they prefer route, house to house along pavements, but that's not the high quality experience, I'd want for anyone's dog; they just clearly love the park land!


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Not sure how we got onto dog walkers but the ones I see around here are abysmal. I see them with up to 6 dogs at a time, all off lead, not a clue where some of them are. I've even seen dog walkers waiting at their car for one to come back on it's own. I'd like to know if the owners are aware of what is happening. And yes, all the ones I've seen so far are female.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

lucylastic said:


> Not sure how we got onto dog walkers but the ones I see around here are abysmal. I see them with up to 6 dogs at a time, all off lead, not a clue where some of them are. I've even seen dog walkers waiting at their car for one to come back on it's own. I'd like to know if the owners are aware of what is happening. And yes, all the ones I've seen so far are female.


I used to pick up a pupil in Cambridge whose next door neighbour had a little bichon who was always sitting on the windowsill. The owner was out all day and paid someone to walk the dog. I was waiting for her one day as she was going to be a bit late and I saw this bloke, go in, come out with the dog on a lead, take him across the road for a wee and bring him back. Disgusting!


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## Guest (May 5, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> You might well be right. I spend couple of hourse, virtually every day in prime dog walking park and not seen one obvious pro walker, the only one I could tell when I offered bag disposal, as she scooped in street (far from public bins).
> 
> The other great dog park, I went to lots during calving season, and again no sign of actual dog walking services operating.
> 
> Now perhaps, they prefer route, house to house along pavements, but that's not the high quality experience, I'd want for anyone's dog; they just clearly love the park land!





lucylastic said:


> Not sure how we got onto dog walkers but the ones I see around here are abysmal. I see them with up to 6 dogs at a time, all off lead, not a clue where some of them are. I've even seen dog walkers waiting at their car for one to come back on it's own. I'd like to know if the owners are aware of what is happening. And yes, all the ones I've seen so far are female.





newfiesmum said:


> I used to pick up a pupil in Cambridge whose next door neighbour had a little bichon who was always sitting on the windowsill. The owner was out all day and paid someone to walk the dog. I was waiting for her one day as she was going to be a bit late and I saw this bloke, go in, come out with the dog on a lead, take him across the road for a wee and bring him back. Disgusting!


I must be doing something wrong. my clients get at least 2 miles in an hour (if capable)at varied locations, only two at a time and I risked getting bitten by a Border Collie yesterday protecting one of the dogs I walk.
I also haven't seen many other of the endless dog walk companies ever out for a walk


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

rona said:


> I must be doing something wrong. my clients get at least 2 miles in an hour (if capable)at varied locations, only two at a time and I risked getting bitten by a Border Collie yesterday protecting one of the dogs I walk


Rona, I had a very good impression of the one I did meet from way she handled her charge, also on given reason why she was walking in the area. Dog was being "sat" for week, but having local walk as she knew many of the dogs, and now I think of it, I might even have met the owner a few times.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I used to pick up a pupil in Cambridge whose next door neighbour had a little Bichon who was
> always sitting on the windowsill. The owner was out all day and paid someone to walk the dog. I was waiting for her one day
> as she was going to be a bit late and I saw this bloke, go in, come out with the dog on a lead, take him across the road for a wee
> and bring him back. Disgusting!


sheesh, that's not a *walk - * that's a potty-trip. i would hope the owner was only paying for a toilet-trip, 
because IMO a proper walk is either long if on-lead, or preferably a combo of off-lead in a safe area, AND on-lead.

for dogs who live where there is no safe off-leash area, i have played with them inside a fenced yard/garden, 
or play fetch on a long-line, or take them to the beach to swim, etc - they need *some* aerobic exercise, 
not just a potty-trip or a 10-min stroll.

but to come back to the theme of the thread, i would want any man handling my personal dog to be humane, 
not hard-handed or physically rough [pull, jerk the leash, scruff the dog...] & so on, just as i would want any 
woman - whether a groomer, walker, vet-tech, vet, trainer, kennel attendant, whatever - to be.

i don't expect all men to be smooth-cheeked & sing soprano - i'm fine with [clean] beards & deep voices.  
but i don't approve of harsh handling or intimidation by anyone, of any gender, even with a Doctorate, 
including DVMs. i expect a dog-pro to know something about dogs, *and to read a dog well & accurately.*

there is no substitute for knowing how the dog 'feels' at the moment for safe, conscientious handling... 
U can't do without that, IMO, no matter how otherwise competent U may be.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Met the Pro dog walker again yesterday, it is indeed the "whistle blower"'s dog she walks near me, and my dog, the walkers Spaniel and client dog, had a very nice calm walk around.

I would not have spotted she was a Pro today, it was only because I met her before in "team colours", and recognised her charge that I could tell. I saw nothing I did not like, so there are concientious dog walkers around; what she claimed does seem to be done in practice. 

We may be using her boarding now, as a result, of her actually taking the dogs out.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

50-50 at my class tonight... next week the women may be outnumbered.... viva la revolution !!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Going back to original question how about "David the Dog Trainer" on YouTube - Who is davidthedogtrainer?

I like this clip especially YouTube - David the Dog Trainer Puppy Leash Lesson, as it explains and shows many little tricks.

Something else is he's not showing "perfect results" in his clips, sometimes the errors are more instructive and he's self critical, rather than carefully nursing an over-blown ego.

His dog walking fashion sense is impeccably functional to!


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## WaveRider (Sep 8, 2009)

If you apply Cesar Milan methods to my Ridgebacks or any Ridgebacks in the long run your probably going to regret it!:blink:

My dogs have always had positive reward training. Not from a book or class, just simple psychological conditioning and common sense.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

Well my OH only went to one training class with me and that was graduation at the last class. He didn't go to any of the puppy drop in classes for socialization either. I went and about 70% of the owners present were women and every man that was there was accompanied by his wife/spouse etc.. Not one male on his own.

I think it might be just a guy thing for some men, they want to figure it out on their own and don't like asking for help. (My OH also doesn't ask for directions and puts things together without reading the instructions.) Most women like getting information. Plus a lot of us have a mother's guilt complex, are afraid of doing things wrong and have a need to nurture. We're the ones buying all that frou frou sh*t too trying to dress up our little doggies like they were people.

OH does however listen to me and followed along with most of what I learned at training plus all the reading and researching and getting advice here and etc.. It's like I'll do the work and he'll help apply it.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

WaveRider said:


> My dogs have always had positive reward training. Not from a book or class, just simple psychological conditioning and common sense


The "fairness" principal is something our family operated on with the dog. When I read a dog book in 70's or 80's, it was generally unacceptable, we seemed to do "everything" wrong as we let our dogs live and be dogs. Doing formal obedience was an absolute "No no!", due to the mentality of the day. Now it seems we were using all these concepts with fancy names, but without realising it.

@jonesy: I seem to be the one with sticking power, so end up going to courses, talks, classes on my own, after all the females find "better" things to do, like washing their hair or something ..


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

very interesting, I looked around here and its the same mainly women. Although I have met one male trainer he lives close to me he does alot of one to one training not classes. I am impressed how he interacts with dogs. But he's the only one I've ever met. I can not comment on his technique as I have never used him I put my dogs in classes so they learn to socialize with dogs other than my own...


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Thinking about it I have trained with a few male trainers. One was very 'macho', only his opinion counted and he decried any 'soft' methods and dealt with aggression through confrontational, aversive methods which of course did not work so owners were advised to have dogs put down or get them muzzled etc etc.  Needless to say, that was years ago, probably about 20 years. I stuck it for a while as somewhere to train my dog but then my principles won out and I left. _(Have you ever noticed how many pro negative reinforcement trainers are 'angry' and defensive - especially on forums? <coughs> )_

Another man I trained with ten years ago as part of my dobermann crosses' socialisation (very nervous of men) was a lovely older gent who was an APDT member and taught accordingly. He was successful as an instructor and as an obedience competitor and was so patient with my scaredy cat pup!

Yet another was the very first trainer I got to know when I took my first dog to classes. I liked him a lot because he was very patient and gentle - so I thought. Until I saw him hang a dog by the lead over his shoulder and down his back to stop it barking, then I kinda lost respect! :glare:

Another was my own husband, whom we used to call 'The Recall Man' in my classes!  He was taught purely by me of course and, as reflects his gentle, laidback nature, was a kind, considerate instructor of recalls! He took each class member aside during classes to help them perfect the recall with their dogs. He was very popular with the ladies (because he is cute!) and also with the few men we had come along, because he could also get on their level and showed them that being 'soft' was not a bad thing and got results.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Another was my own husband, whom we used to call 'The Recall Man' in my classes!
> He was taught purely by me of course and, as reflects his gentle, laidback nature, was a kind, considerate instructor
> ...


i think that's key: many men are not comfy being instructed by a woman, & also tend to presume that we women 
are 'favoring the dog' or choose mushy, ineffective techniques to train - due to our 'soft', nurturing feminine temps. 
:ihih: well, i hate to shatter that lovely iridescent bubble of glamour, but i for one DON't choose my techniques 
only based on how feel-good they are,  since the point of training is not only to luxuriate in our dear dogs, 
but actually *in fact* to teach those dear dogs to cope & thrive in a human-world & people-centric environs, 
which are not very tolerant of dog-preferences re scents _[Eau De Dead-Fish]_, behavior _[sex in public]_, 
greetings _[lunge, jump, lick & whine enthusiastically]_, & so on.

getting more men into humane-training is important - so that they can serve as role-models & instructors 
to their gender, & hopefully bridge the gap between the sexes in the ratio of wimmen to men.

the overwhelming number of men in traditional-training - Koehler-style prong, choke, or slip-lead, 
with collar-corrections AKA leash-jerks, forced-fetch with ear-pinches or toe-hitches, and so on - 
is the other side of the coin: men feel comfy with this style, it's very direct, immediate & goal-oriented. 
there's no faffing about with a treat or a toy, it's _*"Do it - or else."*_ 
throw in the usual rick-rack trim of _'my dog obeys because s/he *respects* me...'_, & the average-male 
is hooked - he can't wait to have HIS dog _'respect'_ him, even tho it's just PC-speak for _'my dog is afraid 
of me, & will do anything to prevent my displays of anger...'_ which is a lot more accurate, tho less appealing 
as a sales-pitch. 

we need more *Steve White*s in the military & police-forces & private security.

we need more *Ken Ramirez*s involved with exotic-animals & captive animals' care, display & husbandry.

also IMO we need *fewer* of this 
Animal Abuse: Dog beaten with PVC pipe, trainer charged - Clark, NJ | Pet-Abuse.Com Animal Cruelty Database

and Tampa dog academy, Animal Services at odds - St. Petersburg Times
 HELICOPTERING his own dog & his clients' dogs - & a local judge allows this?

his is an extreme case: 
repeated ACC charges & fines, abuse-charges, inadequate care, accidental deaths of dogs in his care.

USA-apdt members please note: it's the only case that i know of, where the APDT-usa removed a member 
for abusive, cruel or neglectful care - after he was prosecuted repeatedly. i'd be much more impressed 
if USA-apdt stripped his membership before he was charged & in court 4 or 5 or 6 times. 
there were repeated complaints by 3 or 4 local-to-him USA-apdt members, prior to charges. 
:nonod: Proactive beats reactive.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Over the years i've trained with 12 trainers and the majority have been female. Most of my co-trainee's have been female, but have had a few classes when the females have been in the minority. 
I don't like stereotyping trainers, they have always been "qualified" and have used various methods and all have used both R+ along with some gentle aversives, usually a gentle "OI" is the most frequent aversive. Teaching something new has alway been reward/praise based. However I have trained with a lady who did not use rewards and still got some good results. 
Putting people in box's doesn't always cut it. My view is observe a class, if you like what you see, then make a call. It's either good for you and your dog or it isn't


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Vela & 'Buzz' are fairly well-known in his little part of the world - he's notorious for training & proofing 
in public spaces, & isn't above being silly, so their antics garner a fair amount of attention. 

he is a crossover-trainer, which all came about because of Vela - she's such a ludicrously soft dog, 
if U look hard at her, she falls apart & can't remember a doggoned thing for the rest of the day - 
she's just a complete marshmallow, not stoopid - in fact very bright, but her brain stops functioning 
when she's been corrected even mildly, & this forced him to learn a new style of training entirely.

so everything from their freestyle-routines to her gundog-training are all reward-based - he's got a slew 
of videos on UTube with Vela performing cued routines with props, learning to leave tempting foods, etc, 
alone... retrieving over long distances *without* any remote-training devices, just raised criteria 
& good step-by-step proofing.

a selection of some favorites of mine: 
YouTube - ‪Vela, The Hot, Hot Dog, Dog‬‏

YouTube - ‪retrieve vs touch ... or How to teach a Retriever to "touch" instead of retrieving‬‏

YouTube - ‪8. Winterthurer Dog Dance Turnier 2011 -- Vela & Buzz in "Backdraft" Open Klasse‬‏

and last but not least, Buzz's channel on U-Tube - [he's a musician, hence the user-name] - 
YouTube - ‪musicofnote1's Channel‬‏


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

video: *back-chaining a behavior - * 
teach the last behavior first, then the next-to-last, then the one before that, and so on; THE LAST ONE 
is thus the most-fluent, & the one being trained is the unfamiliar behavior, which is done first.

so in scent-work, what's the last thing? *the indicator behavior*: _'i found it!' _

so 1st taught is auto-sit; then auto-target with auto-sit; scent-wheel as first a visual, then olfactory search, 
& finally the dog now *targets* the correct scented-item & then *sits* beside it to indicate.
YouTube - ‪Search, Locate, and Report -- low resolution video‬‏

Down - At - The - Article: another indicator-behavior for SAR or police-k9, 
indicating a find during a tracking or area search without contaminating the item. 
YouTube - ‪DownAtArticle.wmv‬‏

Steve's U-Tube channel - YouTube - ‪i2iK9's Channel‬‏

his website - i2i K9 Home


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

canuckjill said:


> very interesting, I looked around here and its the same mainly women. Although I have met one male trainer he lives close to me *he does alot of one to one training not classes.* I am impressed how he interacts with dogs. But he's the only one I've ever met. I can not comment on his technique as I have never used him I put my dogs in classes so they learn to socialize with dogs other than my own...


That would have suited my OH, he would far rather do one to one than attend a course with other people.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> many men are not comfy being instructed by a woman, & also tend to presume that we women
> are 'favoring the dog' or choose mushy, ineffective techniques to train - due to our 'soft', nurturing feminine temps.
> ..
> Proactive beats reactive.


That last thought would actually be a good thread, for dog handling & training. Anticipating hazards, working on emerging issues early, or overcoming breed "traits" by emphasis on socialisation or attention giving in puppy hood etc etc

Now I thought about why I rather work on my own, than in a class situation and perhaps why I felt more comfortable with the class taken by a Male instructor than ones I've attended run by Females.

I think it actually was simply that when I'm starting doing an exercise, I want to be able to experiment a little, to discover myself. The Male instructor was hands off, but available for queries. All too often female instructors are falling over themselves to "help" but I find them distracting and feel hindered, rather than enjoying "support". *Sometimes less is more!* 

It's like when you do DIY, plan the job, get tools together, read instructions etc Then someone else rolls up and tries (without having done any research) to tell you how to do it and how they want it. Actually you just needed someone to hold something up, and less lip 

I do know they're trying to help me, but I just want a few minutes to actually see what's what. With Freddie, I made so much progress (which he's retained) on A-frame & Dog walk, when I finally bogged off rather and worked on the apparatus 1:1 with him for instance, making sure he was properly rewarded with squaky tennis ball.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

WARNING: Crudely nutshelling with generalisation

Men prefer to act and do and thus rarely refer to manuals and are less likely to ask for assistance and directions, they are thus less likely to read a book on the subject nor attend a class specific to it. This then leads to fewer opportunities for men to be exposed to differing training methods which ignite the spark to learn even more and before long there are fewer male 'nice method' trainers. Men generally don't like admitting failure to women.

Women however are generally much more likely to be exposed to 'bad' dog behaviour, admit they need help and are also more likely to research harder their avenue of choice hence a majority female attendance at classes. They are thus exposed to differing training methods which can lead to that spark to go further. Women don't care who they admit failure to, they just want help.

As another generalisation, women defer to their caring nurture side and are more likely to side with the 'reward' based training than methods they deem to be harsh.

As said earlier, these are generalisations and so the minority is being tarred with the same brush which is why I've experienced two women and five male trainers who train in positive ways - and one of the male trainers only rewards with touch/stroking. I've equally had my share of opposites and encountered two hard method female and one hard male trainer.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> and one of the male trainers only rewards with touch/stroking


Now you still know one in real life & another on line, but, I do very little stroking, a lot of big time to the dog physical interaction in the form of petting actions & vocal praise (any vocalised noise) the inflection of exitement stimulates them, stroking is not a very powerfull reinforcer. Physical interaction is a pack drive stimulus, the third strongest of the 4 drives which means a pack drive stimulus is a very powerfull 24/7 reinforcer.

.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> WARNING: Crudely nutshelling with generalisation
> 
> Men prefer to act and do and thus rarely refer to manuals and are less likely to ask for assistance and directions, they are thus less likely to read a book on the subject nor attend a class specific to it. This then leads to fewer opportunities for men to be exposed to differing training methods which ignite the spark to learn even more and before long there are fewer male 'nice method' trainers. Men generally don't like admitting failure to women.
> 
> ...


Oh bugger... now I don't know if I'm a man or a woman... maybe I'm one of those ladyboys... keep your generalisations to yourself next time.


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## arlow (Apr 20, 2011)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> As another generalisation, women defer to their caring nurture side and are more likely to side with the 'reward' based training than methods they deem to be harsh.


Bingo!!!!!


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

arlow said:


> Bingo!!!!!


And that involves a lot of women waiting for some balls to drop ....


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Dinner for two.. 69... I'll get my coat


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Home - Ken Ramirez Training & Consulting

Ken Ramirez runs behavior & training at Shedd Aquarium in Chicago. 
keeping the resident animals happy & behaviorally healthy is his job. 
his book - 
Amazon.com: Animal Training: Successful Animal Management Through Positive Reinforcement (9780961107499): Ken Ramirez: Books

he holds seminars & presented at the USA-apdt annual conference - 
Ken Ramirez

YouTube - ‪Shedd Aquarium - Pet Training the Shedd Way‬‏


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

In my opinion, when men do adopt force free training techniques and learn about reward for response methods properly and utilise them in a positive way, they are very good at it, like the *Original Dog Whisperer*! What a shame we don't see them get on the TV instead of the macho men with the outdated ideas! The trouble is, it doesn't make for such exciting TV if a dog is happy to learn and is rehabilitated using a genuine understanding of canine behaviour in a calm environment instead of force and supposed 'knowledge'.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

About Green Acres


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Dog Training in Bergen County and Jersey City New Jersey


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Non-Violent Dog Training with Dog Whisperer Paul Owens


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Training Police Dogs and Military Dogs Using Positive Methods - Whole Dog Journal Article


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> In my opinion, when men do adopt force free training techniques and learn about reward for response methods properly and utilise them in a positive way, they are very good at it, like the *Original Dog Whisperer*!


That's the thing actually, men often like to play more than women, so excel at one of the key reinforcers.

Last week when away, I met a rescue and got chance to undo some of the masculine inflicted damage and chip away at CM/DW 

Me: "Oh, is that a Shar Pei mix you have there?"
Woman: *happy smile* "Yes! Gosh! *Noone* has ever said that before, I have to tell them. She has a bit of Lab there to".
Me: "Looks lovely, where did you get her from?"
Woman: "She's a rescue, I'm afraid she is nervous of men" 
Me: "Well that's a shame, but quite common."
Woman: "It'll gradually get better with time."
Me: "Yes, but you might be able to help her, by making sure she has a good time around men."
Woman: "Yes, that might work after a while." *smile*

I stay sitting and we say "b'bye" without being anywhere near dog. Later I go inside, on way out and chat a bit more after I am re-greeted in front of small group. The dog after about a min starts interacting with me.

Woman: "You watch Cesar Milan, you're Dog Whispering.. that's it isn't it?"
Me: "Me no! Whilst I did avoid eye contact & touch; most men are too direct.. I am actually using Turid Ruugas's calming signals work.. you can do it to!"

We talked about calming signals and I explained how to find about them.. and I got invited by the dog to stroke her, so I did; that rather surprised her 

Everyone clearly saw being positive works well; quite why all the stuckist denial beats me!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Last week in book store I came across 2 books by an Author called Graeme Sims, who seems to "get it". Skimming I saw sound points on conflict causing aggression, and the benefits of bonding and a positive relationship with dog, emphasising kindness.

Having explored deeper, I am now seriously tempted to buy his books, they may be worth recommending. Obviously my skepticism anti-"marketing" BS meter was initially set to 11, due to the "Whisperer" label.

Looks like he not only talks the talk, but walks the walk. Those who remember my anecdote about the lesson from a Welsh WSD trainer to me as a teenager, might see parallels with emphasis on kindness.

This guy is a late starter after a business collapse so came _accidentally_ so to do public demonstrations at shows, is an amazing achievement.



Graeme Sims said:


> I asked my mother, why she did that? And she said "It was only a dog!" which changed my way of thinking





Graeme Sims's Publishers said:


> Graeme Sims - "the man who "speaks dog" - is hailed as one of the world's most respected dog trainers. His approach depends on his matchless ability to get into the mind of the dog - to be truly a 'dog whisperer'. Many of our difficulties in training dogs come from a failure to appreciate how differently from us they respond to situations; and he explains how our misinterpretation of their reactions can cause them unhappiness and contribute to behavioural problems.
> 
> In a series of case studies, he shows how, with understanding and patience, we can reach the nervous, the difficult or the disturbed rescue dog, and help them finally to feel that they have a real home. His book gives you a chance to look at life from the dog's point of view and to understand thoroughly what you see; it is for anyone who wants to earn the right to be their dog's best friend


His books are billed (presumably by publisher marketeers as "the Dog Whisperer - the man who speaks dog", one is on rescues and details experiences very much like many on forum find. Claims 14 dogs trained and belief in being able to train *any* dog, the key he explains is understanding each dog, so he implies the individuality.

graeme sims - Google Search for some very interesting web pages.

My highlights :

qanda.jpg]The Q&A - video clips from demonstration
Episode 29 - Graeme Sims and his Border Collies - "How many dogs can you control?" - DogCast Radio *Bullies won't like the unpulled punches, some straight talking!*
The Reviews
The Dog Whisperer by Graeme Sims - TheBookbag.co.uk book review
graeme sims - Google Image Search



Rex Harper OBE (Amazon) said:


> Graeme Sims places himself in the position of being able to see himself in the role of the dog, rather than the owner, and shows how, with sufficient patience and care a bond can be established between two entirely different species which can bring with it a lifetime of pleasure and understanding for both owner and dog.
> 
> Graeme Sims knows his dogs and much can be learned from reading his book, in particular should you be thinking of taking on a puppy from a working breed.
> 
> The Dog Whisperer should be read by every dog owner for it is impartial , making no exaggerated claims and could go a long way to helping you understand how your dog thinks, - Rex Harper OBE (Amazon)





Graeme Sims said:
 

> If you start with a sheepdog puppy, what you want it to be to start is as nutty as a fruitcake. Because you can minimise the nuttiness but you can't put the enthusiasm in.





Graeme Sims said:


> The best way to punish a (Border Collie) dog, is too look at it with both eyes concentrated on one of it's eyes.





Graeme Sims said:


> Border Collies remember things, one thing I've discovered is that they store up their revenge on you! One I had, I used to work ducks but she didn't like ducks, but it took me a while to realise it..


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i still can't believe he got *fourth* place, & Richard Curtis got 1st with his Beach-Boys routine - 
injustice, i say. 

YouTube - ‪4de plaats htm freestyle Crufts 2010 Belgium.wmv‬‏

U can see his English Setter is a very-soft dog, but she's just thrilled to be doing her thing - 
her happy, fluent, well-taught thing! :001_tt1: even in front of thousands of people.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Don't know if these have been added:

Kevin Myers and the Dog Lovers Digest
James O'Heare
and one of my heroes Drayton Michaels


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tripod said:


> Don't know if these have been added:
> 
> Kevin Myers and the Dog Lovers Digest
> James O'Heare
> and one of my heroes Drayton Michaels


nope, Thanks! And i know all 3, :lol: small world, eh?

THIS LITTER gets a great start - 
YouTube - ‪"P"Litter May 11,2010‬‏

i can't say i love their structure, but at 6-WO i love their *behavior*: only one is a bit intimidated, 
& she gets over it quickly [the B&T female butt-on to the camera, who freezes & sniffs for a bit, 
then romps off to explore]. at about 2:20 a big dog barks intimidatingly, but they aren't much fazed - 
they retreat & recover.

Sit & Down - 1st clicker session, 6.5-WO 
YouTube - ‪"P" Litter SableMale Clicker Training May13, 2010‬‏

same breeder, from a 2007 litter: 'Calais' with her male trainer/handler 
YouTube - ‪Calais Adler Stein - 14 weeks old - con 14 semanas‬‏ 
a future Schutz-contender at 14-WO.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - ‪Aerten at the Penning/Van der Borght seminar‬‏

*Guy Penning* & *Axel Van der Borght* in a Schutzhund seminar hosted by Posidogs; 
Columbus, Ohio, on May 27th thru the 29th, 2011.

i want to add that the owner of Aerten, the young dog shown here, drove from NC to Ohio to attend.
that's an 8-hr to 10-hr drive, each way - for 3-days of seminar. :eek6: WoW.

Axel's blog on _Police-k9 Magazine_ 
Police K-9 Magazine Blog | Page 4

their website - 
Welcome to the BelgianK9friends. The Belgian K9 Friends are not a club but those are friends from Guy and Axel who like to traindogs. Guy and Axel met each other while they were both searching the best positive methods to train their dogs. Axel is a 

Axel is a police-inspector & met Guy at a Mondio-Ring club; they teamed up to teach pos-R bite-sports.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

confessions

notice how many are crossover trainers... :thumbup:


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> confessions


The long version link for the _repressed_ confessions



> Guy teached us a lot from the beginning. Zora was a very curious dog but when she knew how to do things she was no longer enthousiast to work with


Think when you have a very smart dog, mine loves novelties; too much repetition of basics they go off the lesson as they don't feel challenged in interesting way and become bored. Figuring out something new though they love!

There's a kind of creativity in finding ways to keep a dog engaged, who's learning ability far out strips, ones time & energy for proofing.


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