# Labradoodles!?



## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

Do they shed their fur?


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

Yep some do.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Uhuh, some can take on the genes of the Lab :thumbsup:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Some do, some don't


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

In my album the black dog is a labradoodle.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

As their coat types cannot be guaranteed then yes some can moult some can be like the poodle and dont. Not all can be guaranteed to be hypo allergenic either. I have seen a lot of different coats on labradoodles just round and about while out with mine, Everything from a more poodle type coat to a wiry type coat to a wavy quite longish coat.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Yes, unfortunately most 'doodles in rescue are there because the owner had been made to believe they were guarantee'd a non shedding dog 

If you want a 'doodle that doesn't shed I would register with 'doodle rescues, as I know on the website of one that is run near here they state whether the dog sheds or not.


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

If they are crossed with a Poodle though they shouldn't shed as much as most shedding dogs do, but they can still shed a little.
My Izzie is a cockapoo & she only sheds & loses some fur when we are grooming her, other than that we don't see any hair around or on our clothes.
& a lot of cockapoo owners buy them because they suffer from allergies & crosses with poodles are supposed to make this either much lower or none existant


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

yup they can
i think the rescue idea is a good one if you are looking for a non shedding dog, and after your other post about breeders i would assume you would prefer a rescue anyway


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

Thanks for the info! I'm not actually looking for anymore pooches. I was just curious! I've got my hands full as it is lol.


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

We saw a Labradoodle pup last week, looked like a lab with a slightly waved short coat so presume it will be a shedder.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

Biscuit played with a new labradoodle last week. The only thing distinguishing it from a pure lab was a little beard and a bit of a bushy tail. Hella cute though!

It really is luck of the draw.


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

I have met 4 labradoodles from the same litter, 2 of them look like labradoodles and don't moult much but 2 of them turned out like black flatcoat retrievers- 1 of those moults a huge amount so much that her kennel needs hoovering more than once a day but the other 1 doesn't tend to moult at all


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I know of 3 people with labradoodles 1 looks just like a lab and that moults the other 2 have shaggy coats 1 moults the other doesn't. The shaggy one that moults does so really badly.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> If they are crossed with a Poodle though they shouldn't shed as much as most shedding dogs do, but they can still shed a little.
> My Izzie is a cockapoo & she only sheds & loses some fur when we are grooming her, other than that we don't see any hair around or on our clothes.
> & a lot of cockapoo owners buy them because they suffer from allergies & crosses with poodles are supposed to make this either much lower or none existant


sorry, you are wrong here and have been listening to the 'bad' breeders. Plenty of doodles moult excessively, there is no guarantee whatsoever.


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## freddies_mum (Apr 12, 2009)

They can shed as much as labradors or as little as poodles and everything in between. Mine only sheds the tiniest bit. And they're certainly not 'hypoallergenic' as it all depends on what you're allergic to. If you're allergic to dog hair and you end up with a fleece coat you might be ok, but if you're allergic to dog saliva then it will be just as bad.



PoisonGirl said:


> Yes, unfortunately most 'doodles in rescue are there because the owner had been made to believe they were guarantee'd a non shedding dog


That's not actually correct. Out of 94 doodles handed in to the Labradoodle Trust over 2 years, only 1% was due to heavy shedding, and 9% due to allergy problems. The main reasons that people hand doodles in are the same as people parting with any other breed - behavioural issues, financial issues, family break-ups etc.


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## freddies_mum (Apr 12, 2009)

Blitz said:


> sorry, you are wrong here and have been listening to the 'bad' breeders. Plenty of doodles moult excessively, there is no guarantee whatsoever.


Your're right, there is no guarantee. Though cockerpoos tend to shed less than labradoodles, certainly in the ones I've met (and that's a lot). I have one cockerpoo who doesn't shed at all, one who sheds a tiny bit and a labradoodle who sheds a tiny bit.

None of the cockerpoos I know shed very much if at all, but I know labradoodles who can fill a hoover a day!


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Blitz said:


> sorry, you are wrong here and have been listening to the 'bad' breeders. Plenty of doodles moult excessively, there is no guarantee whatsoever.


I didn't say anything about bad breeders :S Obviously some will still moult, it depends how much Poodle/labrador the pup has in it... But a good breeder would tell you if the coat was more labrador so that the owner would know if the dog was likely so shed a lot or not, there are always going to be throwbacks of litters that have more labrador than poodle & shed.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

I don't think I've ever seen a labradoodle or a cockapoo?! What are they like? Labs with funky hair? Or do you ever get a poodle with lab like hair? I take it a cockapoo is a cocker poodle cross?


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> I didn't say anything about bad breeders :S Obviously some will still moult, it depends how much Poodle/labrador the pup has in it... But a good breeder would tell you if the coat was more labrador so that the owner would know if the dog was likely so shed a lot or not, there are always going to be throwbacks of litters that have more labrador than poodle & shed.
> 
> & 5rivers, I don't like how much of a pedigree snob you are


I dont think 5rivers is being a snob hun, I think he is using humour to point out the absurdity in some crossings


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I've met a few, lovely dogs

Goldendoodles....well that's anotehr story but maybe because all the ones I met were american?

I adore Cockerpoos though and would like one myself 

Yes, they can shed because you're mixing a non shedding to a shedding dog so you'll either get non shedding, low shedding or high shedding.

















I know this guy was a doodle but my brains dead and I can't remember what one but it was lovely seeing one working :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Do they shed their fur?


in the F1 litters [Poodle x Lab], _Fifty-Percent of the pups_ will shed; 
50% will not. This cannot be determined until the pup is 6 to 7-MO & blows their puppy-coat; 
the adult coat will either shed profusely [Lab-style, every day] or be nonshedding AKA *mat* -

either way, due to the texture introduced by the Poodle [flat, curling hairs which can mat & tangle], 
*all of the pups - that's 100% - will be mandatory-grooming for life.*

every 6 to 8-weeks [4 weeks if the owner does not comb the dog tangle-free TO THE SKIN at least 
3 times a week; every 8-weeks if the owner is diligent about grooming tangle-free 4 or more times 
each week, AND scissor-trims the most tangle-prone areas: armpits, behind ears, groin/loin, butt], 
the dog will need to be combed tangle-free to the skin, bathed, blow-dried or draft-free dried, & trimmed 
with a clipper or scissors. *U cannot cut dirty hair; dirt destroys cutting edges. U cannot bathe a dog 
who has any tangles or mats; they're only drawn tighter by the water & become impossible to comb-out.*

a kennel in Australia breeding Doodles since approx 1982 still has pups born who do not meet criteria; 
IOW the pup sheds, has poor structure, poor temp, etc - this *despite* excellent screening & tracking 
of all their progeny as the pups mature. They radiograph elbows, knees & hips, test for Seb-Ad, etc. 
nonetheless, some pups do not meet their standards, after almost 30-years of diligent records & testing.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> a kennel in Australia breeding Doodles since approx 1982 still has pups born who do not meet criteria;
> IOW the pup sheds, has poor structure, poor temp, etc - this *despite* excellent screening & tracking
> of all their progeny as the pups mature. They radiograph elbows, knees & hips, test for Seb-Ad, etc.
> nonetheless, some pups do not meet their standards, after almost 30-years of diligent records & testing.


Quite interesting, that's one thing that makes me think though is how on earth did we even get non shedding dogs as wolves shed as as much as a malamute and husky would. :confused1: I domestication changes allot of things but we changed it so much that a non shedding coat became prelevent? :confused1: hmm interesting thought.


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

redginald said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a labradoodle or a cockapoo?! What are they like? Labs with funky hair? Or do you ever get a poodle with lab like hair? I take it a cockapoo is a cocker poodle cross?


Yes a cockapoo is a cocker spaniel x poodle cross, this is a picture of what mine looks like below 



















Starlite said:


> I dont think 5rivers is being a snob hun, I think he is using humour to point out the absurdity in some crossings


I don't really understand why it's absurd though, people are pretty much crossing their favourite breeds (like labradors) with poodles, a large reason for this is the reason of low/less shedding & a better chance of not having allergy problems. We got Izzie because she would barely shed & we didn't want to have to hoover constantly.
So I totally understand why it has been done as both labs & poodles are gorgeous dogs, why can't dogs be crossed.
To me it does sound pedigree snobby, loads of people complain about cross breeds & it annoys me, there no worse of a dog just because they're not only one breed.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

LauraIzPops said:


> Yes a cockapoo is a cocker spaniel x poodle cross, this is a picture of what mine looks like below
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A labrador that doesn't drop its hair sounds a good idea to me:thumbup:


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> Yes a cockapoo is a cocker spaniel x poodle cross, this is a picture of what mine looks like below
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your cockerpoo lokks a nice dog my SIL has a puppy must be coming up for 6 months now and she insists you shouldn't clip them or cut their coats in any way so to me the best way to describe him would be a mop on legs. I will say I have nothing against cross breeds 2 of mine are Willow is a italian greyound x whippet and Lily is a chihuahua x yorkie I just don't call them silly names.


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

I mean I wouldn't call her a silly name, but it's what she is... Cockapoos have been bred in America since the 1960s, so for 50s years they've been noticed as this crossbreed name, new breeds are having names made up recently, but a name describes what cross they are without just saying she's a crossbreed & then been asked what breeds she is crossed with etc...
We had Izzie clipped & she looks gorgeous  But their fur matts so we needed it to be managable for us haha  Why does she say you can't clip/cut them at all?


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

LauraIzPops said:


> I mean I wouldn't call her a silly name, but it's what she is... Cockapoos have been bred in America since the 1960s, so for 50s years they've been noticed as this crossbreed name, new breeds are having names made up recently, but a name describes what cross they are without just saying she's a crossbreed & then been asked what breeds she is crossed with etc...
> We had Izzie clipped & she looks gorgeous  But their fur matts so we needed it to be managable for us haha  Why does she say you can't clip/cut them at all?


Apparently her vet told her you only clip their feet and pluck their ears but you should never clip their coats. But seeing as her vet asked her if she was going to keep him entire to use as a stud when he only has 1 testicle and that is the size of a pea I do wonder if the vet has a clue either. I'm waiting until his coat is all matted and she asks me to clip it she will be told no. I had to do his claws the other week as she woudn't do it herself.


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Freyja said:


> Apparently her vet told her you only clip their feet and pluck their ears but you should never clip their coats. But seeing as her vet asked her if she was going to keep him entire to use as a stud when he only has 1 testicle and that is the size of a pea I do wonder if the vet has a clue either. I'm waiting until his coat is all matted and she asks me to clip it she will be told no. I had to do his claws the other week as she woudn't do it herself.


Oh right, does sound like the vet doesn't have much of a clue :S
Cutting coats doesn't harm dogs, all Poodles & other long haired breeds are allowed trims & cuts, so not sure why she believes that, plus matts can get really bad, Izzie has some now that i'm working on, but it's not easy because she hates being brished haha, but she isn't even that long atm! We had to have her cut short because of matts before, so I hope your friend is keeping up to her brushing if she isn't cutting the pup or it will spread all over her fur!


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## freddies_mum (Apr 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> in the F1 litters [Poodle x Lab], _Fifty-Percent of the pups_ will shed;
> 50% will not. This cannot be determined until the pup is 6 to 7-MO & blows their puppy-coat;
> the adult coat will either shed profusely [Lab-style, every day] or be nonshedding AKA *mat* -
> 
> ...


Sorry, but what a load of clap-trap. Within any breeding pair the pups sill get 50% of their genes from each parent. But not necessarily the same 50%.

BTW if you're quoting from Rutland Manor/Tegan Park it's a well known puppy farm, so sad :frown:


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> There are hundreds of breeds to choose from as you say because these breeds were created by crossing. So if your stance is that you find it "unethical" maybe then we should have not created all these breeds in the first place.
> 
> It not always down to creating "new breeds" that impact on the rescue system but a multitude of reasons such as financial, ill health of owners, people giving up puppies they can't cope with or dogs that are too old or are ill etc.........
> 
> Whenever I have looked at rescues I still see a lot of purebreeds and crosses that have been around a lot longer than the "new breeds", although yes there will still be some of these so called "new breeds" in rescue too.


Yes they were crossed but hundreds and hundreds of years ago to do specific jobs. But what im trying to get at is there is now no need to do that anymore as there are plenty to choose from...and all i see it being is creating a breed for looks.

Take your beloved breed the cockerpoo for example imo it looks so similar to the Lagotto Romagnolo..so why breed something that looks similar when there is already a similar looking breed?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> Yes a cockapoo is a cocker spaniel x poodle cross, this is a picture of what mine looks like below
> 
> I don't really understand why it's absurd though, people are pretty much crossing their favourite breeds (like labradors) with poodles, a large reason for this is the reason of low/less shedding & a better chance of not having allergy problems. We got Izzie because she would barely shed & we didn't want to have to hoover constantly.
> So I totally understand why it has been done as both labs & poodles are gorgeous dogs, why can't dogs be crossed.
> To me it does sound pedigree snobby, loads of people complain about cross breeds & it annoys me, there no worse of a dog just because they're not only one breed.


I have to agree with previous posts, no *ethical* breeder of a poodle cross would tell you they guarantee pups to be lower moulting than either parent. Labs in particular, as they are double coated, and having groomed one of mine earlier, I can tell you they are a lot of work! I can't for the life imagine why people would think a higher percentage will magically inherit the poodle coat, the odds are it's going to be at least 50/50, so 50% of those dogs will have moulting coats and grooming requirements, which begs the question, for me, why not just buy a low moulting breed that's guaranteed, like a poodle, or a bedlington etc, if your reason for buying a dog as a companion, is combined with the requirement for a low moulting breed - and there is no such thing as a non-moulting breed btw, all dogs moult to some extent.

I'm not against cross breeds, I am however, against people making a quick buck by using daft reasons for crossing. And having come across so many people who haven't a foggiest about the coat of a cockerpoo or Labradoodle, then I'm afraid it just has to be viewed as a sales gimmick that the unwary do fall for, and I'm not saying that it's exclusive to cross breeds, but it does seem to be something associated with the 'oodle' crosses.

Cockerpoos in my experience and albeit short knowledge base, also require some grooming, so aren't the ideal low maintenance dog coat wise for someone who suffers allergies. It wouldn't be the first breed type I'd suggest to someone, as I personally think a bedlington would be a better choice.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Just to agree with SL (cos I'm not getting wrapped up in all this tosh again) that ALL breeds shed including poodles. The hair does not end up on the floor as it gets caught in the curly hair (sometimes causing matting) hence the need for grooming. 

It's unfortunate that breeders try to claim non-moulting; it is claimed standard poodles must apparently have a "...type of coat which does not moult." :confused1:


I would also agree that that (the vast majority of) poodle crosses are not low maintenance regarding coat type.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Yes they were crossed but hundreds and hundreds of years ago to do specific jobs. But what im trying to get at is there is now no need to do that anymore as there are plenty to choose from...and all i see it being is creating a breed for looks.
> 
> Take your beloved breed the cockerpoo for example imo it looks so similar to the Lagotto Romagnolo..so why breed something that looks similar when there is already a similar looking breed?


They may look similar but will I presume have different personalities/temperaments etc.......... and I know many owners from two other forums I use who are all happy with their choice of cockapoos and many who go on to to get more.... I am so glad to the person who first thought about crossing them. I would dearly love another

Whilst looks play a part in peoples choice- so do many other factors like your lifestyle.

I have never heard of a Lagotto- presume it's a breed that is not common?

Anyway that aside isn't it better to have a successful crossbreed that isn't clogging up rescues ?

Also us cockapoo owners don't normally have people cross over the road to avoid us, have people scream and pick their dogs up in fright, get abused for owning a dog that people perceive will rip your face off and a lot of the other assumed negatives with the larger dogs like Akitas and the bull breeds.

So I think peoples perceptions can also play a part in your dogs choice.

I do agree with you however that just breeding to create without any research of the breeds being crossed etc....... and bred responsibly isn't good.

However I do feel that some of these "new breeds" are successful and fit into todays lifestyle and therefore have a place, if done right.

But then I also love a good old heinz 57  for me it's up to the individual and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone what dog they should own.

Different strokes for different folks and all that


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Chuff, has hell frozen over 

Just to clarify, the BS doesn't have that wording for the poodle, so I'm not sure if it's something to do with a breed club recommendation you're picking up on? The BS for the Poodle reads:

_Coat
Very profuse and dense; of good harsh texture. All short hair close, thick and curly. It is strongly recommended that the traditional lion clip be adhered to._

And the BS for the Lab reads:

_Coat
Distinctive feature, short dense without wave or feathering, giving fairly hard feel to the touch; weather-resistant undercoat._

That weather resistant undercoat is the double coat, and is made up of very fine hairs which can be incredibly irritating and tend to form tumbleweed across wooden floors 

Unfortunately, any cross breed or breed type is open to miselling, Labs are often sold as the ideal family pet for example, and while that may be true, the bit about snarling biting crocodile pup phase is often glossed over, and something many people will post about that they were unaware of when buying a Labrador pup. I hope I live to see the day when people buying pups don't just do so on a whim, and are so much more informed than the majority of puppy buyers today, and hopefully that will reflect in the rescue numbers we see, although I'm not opptomistic about it, it's something I would love to see


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> They may look similar but will I presume have different personalities/temperaments etc.......... and I know many owners from two other forums I use who are all happy with their choice of cockapoos and many who go on to to get more.... I am so glad to the person who first thought about crossing them. I would dearly love another
> 
> Whilst looks play a part in peoples choice- so do many other factors like your lifestyle.
> 
> ...


Just a bit of info for you 

_........ Very similar [to the spanish water dog] is the Lagotto Romagnolo from Romagne in Italy, which was also bred to retrieve ducks from water. Unfortunately, the popularity of the breed declined when the marshes in the area were drained which led to the decline of duck hunting. Another use was found, and the dog was trained instead to search for the much prized truffle. _


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Yes they were crossed but hundreds and hundreds of years ago to do specific jobs. But what im trying to get at is there is now no need to do that anymore as there are plenty to choose from...and all i see it being is creating a breed for looks.
> 
> Take your beloved breed the cockerpoo for example imo it looks so similar to the Lagotto Romagnolo..so why breed something that looks similar when there is already a similar looking breed?
> 
> ]


My views on doodles etc non withstanding 
The lagotto is not a companion breed, very rare and despite thied cuddly appearances are most definitely a working breed that require a job to do.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Chuff, has hell frozen over
> 
> Just to clarify, the BS doesn't have that wording for the poodle, so I'm not sure if it's something to do with a breed club recommendation you're picking up on?


Don't think so... it's still very warm down here.

"Characteristics
Distinguished by a special type of clip for show activity and by a type of coat which does not moult."

Poodle (Standard) Breed Standard - The Kennel Club


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> "Characteristics
> Distinguished by a special type of clip for show activity and by a type of coat which does not moult."
> 
> Poodle (Standard) Breed Standard - The Kennel Club


Poodles aren't my breed, nor a dog I'm interested in, however, I'd imagine, without getting into a huge debate about the BS that particular phrasiology was originally included to distinguish poodles apart from other breed types. It is, in my view, outdated, and should be changed, as, we agreed earlier, no type of coat is entirely non-moulting. I don't know if the wording there could possibly be to indicate that poodles don't have seasonal moults, in the same way other dogs do, and Labrador seasonal moults can be quite heavy. In any case, having read it, I think it's misleading as you probably do as well from the sounds of it


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Poodles aren't my breed, nor a dog I'm interested in, however, I'd imagine, without getting into a huge debate about the BS that particular phrasiology was originally included to distinguish poodles apart from other breed types. It is, in my view, outdated, and should be changed, as, we agreed earlier, no type of coat is entirely non-moulting. I don't know if the wording there could possibly be to indicate that poodles don't have seasonal moults, in the same way other dogs do, and Labrador seasonal moults can be quite heavy. In any case, having read it, I think it's misleading as you probably do as well from the sounds of it


That's twice we've agreed...... I'll get me coat (non shedding coat of course :001_cool


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Even people shed  Well i do! hahahah


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

I have a shed but not a moult..


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Poodles aren't my breed, nor a dog I'm interested in, however, I'd imagine, without getting into a huge debate about the BS that particular phrasiology was originally included to distinguish poodles apart from other breed types. It is, in my view, outdated, and should be changed, as, we agreed earlier, no type of coat is entirely non-moulting. I don't know if the wording there could possibly be to indicate that poodles don't have seasonal moults, in the same way other dogs do, and Labrador seasonal moults can be quite heavy. In any case, having read it, I think it's misleading as you probably do as well from the sounds of it


Poodles do not moult and their hair is completely different from other dogs. There will very rarely be a tiny amount of hair in the brush and comb after they have been groomed - but no more than from my hairbrush  The texture of the coat is more like wool and it is very dry so does not self clean, hence regular baths are needed. If you do not clip them their coats will grow and grow and grow. It was fashionable to leave them full length in the early 1900s and cord the coat - I understand they were shown in different classes. I have seen pictures with the body coat of a standard poodle trailing on the ground in long cords 



AlisonLyn said:


> I suggest you get off your high horse lady! It is NOT the breed but the deed and I know of a Labradoodle near here who is always jumping up at people and hyper, scaring kids etc. It is how the dog is taught and people do NOt cross the road to avoid out Staffy crosses etc so I think you should think before you make detrogatory comments about certain breeds; it is people like you were feed from the media hype about certain breeds when ANY dog can attack if taught wrongly and I am sure there are some Labradoodle owners whose dogs have gotton into trouble for biting or snapping just like any other. :mad2:Oh and for the record, my brother had half his face ripped off by a Poodle when he was just walking past and unprovoked..... I wouldn't trust a Poodle for all the money in the world, but our girlies most have staay in and are like


I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick here. There are constant posts on here by upset owners because their staffie/rottie/akita etc is avoided like the plague by passers by who cross the road to get out of their way. I dont think you will find anyone on here that agrees with this or disagrees with you that it is deed not breed. I think you will find that the bit you were taking offence to was very tongue in cheek and understood as such by the owners of these breeds.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Speaking of corded poodles saw this photo and found it simply amazing








I've not met one yet and one of my books marked them as a different breed :confused1: that's when I first found out you could cord poodles.


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## Gragface (Oct 8, 2011)

Wow at the poodle, looks very odd.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Id say the same thing (working breed) about a lab too? Need a job..lots of exercise.
> 
> http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/lagottoromagnolo.htm:
> 
> ...


That particluar website is not the wealth of info it claims to be, even just by looking at my own two breeds I can see glaringly obvious incorrect pieces of information to anyone who actually knows the breeds.

Dont get my wrong 5rivers, I am not disagreeing as such with your statement of needing new breeds, just pointing out that lagottos are certainly not dogs in the same league as cockers, poodles and labs. DESPITE all three of those dogs being highly intelligent workable dogs also.
Lagotto's are rarely kept as comanion animals in their homecountry of Italy due to their nature. 
I am not saying they cannot be kept as pets but certainly that they are more 'specialised' than labradors or cockers.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Poodles do not moult and their hair is completely different from other dogs. There will very rarely be a tiny amount of hair in the brush and comb after they have been groomed - but no more than from my hairbrush  The texture of the coat is more like wool and it is very dry so does not self clean, hence regular baths are needed. If you do not clip them their coats will grow and grow and grow. It was fashionable to leave them full length in the early 1900s and cord the coat - I understand they were shown in different classes. I have seen pictures with the body coat of a standard poodle trailing on the ground in long cords


Are you suggesting poodles are born with and die with every strand of hair? I find that hard to believe, all dogs loose hair to some extent, along with skin cells, and one of the things that does set off an allergic reaction, saliva.

I think the problem is with the term non-moulting, which doesn't seem accurate, unless you're sticking to the principle that poodles are born and die with every strand of hair that is. Does it refer to the lack of seasonal moults, which would make more sense? In which case a more correct term would be low moulting, rather than non-moulting, just an observation.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> Speaking of corded poodles saw this photo and found it simply amazing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That photo is brilliant, thanks for posting it.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Are you suggesting poodles are born with and die with every strand of hair? I find that hard to believe, all dogs loose hair to some extent, along with skin cells, and one of the things that does set off an allergic reaction, saliva.
> 
> I think the problem is with the term non-moulting, which doesn't seem accurate, unless you're sticking to the principle that poodles are born and die with every strand of hair that is. Does it refer to the lack of seasonal moults, which would make more sense? In which case a more correct term would be low moulting, rather than non-moulting, just an observation.


Of course they are not born and die with the same strands of hair. they are constantly clipped and their hair constantly grows so it is totally new hair.

Their beds never have a single hair on it, their brushes seldom have hair on them, the bath has a few bits after a bath, though very little. Probably less than I moult when I wash my hair!

So if you want to be totally pedantic then yes, they do moult, in the same way that humans do. But there is never a single hair to get off the carpet, they do not leave a single hair on your clothes so I think most people would count that as non moulting rather than low moulting, which would indicate that there was some hair, just less than some other breeds.


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## AlisonLyn (Sep 2, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> Speaking of corded poodles saw this photo and found it simply amazing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WTF??? OMG! That is almost scarey, looks like it has eyes further up til I realised they were beads or something equally bizarre. Not the dog for me certainly


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## Forlyfe (Oct 23, 2011)

Thank you for posting this thread, that photo was amazing. Definatly not the dog for me :/


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Of course they are not born and die with the same strands of hair. they are constantly clipped and their hair constantly grows so it is totally new hair.
> 
> Their beds never have a single hair on it, their brushes seldom have hair on them, the bath has a few bits after a bath, though very little. Probably less than I moult when I wash my hair!
> 
> So if you want to be totally pedantic then yes, they do moult, in the same way that humans do. But there is never a single hair to get off the carpet, they do not leave a single hair on your clothes so I think most people would count that as non moulting rather than low moulting, which would indicate that there was some hair, just less than some other breeds.


Apologies for being pedantic, but considering one of the many reasons people are 'taken in' to the cross breed poodle types, is because of the non-moulting claim, surely you must see how ridiculous it is to claim any dog is non-moulting? People looking for a dog that is hypo allergenic, ie least moulting, would be best looking towards a poodle, bedlington or similar, which is proven to be low moulting, rather than a cross breed, which has a risk of being higher moulting, indeed as high maintenance as the other half of the mating, which is my point. There is no such thing as a dog that doesn't moult, but for those who are looking towards this as a criteria for owning a dog, look towards proven breeds and breed types, and don't be taken in by the hype


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

redginald said:


> A [Labrador] that doesn't [shed] sounds like a good idea to me :thumbup:


there is no such animal; Doodles do not look like Labs. 
ALL smooth-coated breeds shed daily; more or less, depending on the season, but daily.

Double-coated breeds shed heavily spring & fall, & little in-between. 
GSDs are a glaring exception to this rule! they shed heavily & incessantly.

BITCHES are a special case: they shed in estrus in preparation for a possible litter. 
among other things, it opens their belly up for nursing easily & better ID of a teat.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

freddies_mum said:


> ...what a load of clap-trap. Within any breeding pair the pups [will] get 50% of their genes
> from each parent. But not necessarily the same 50%.


pardon me -

HALF THE PUPS in the F1 litters will shed; HALF will not. 
obviously, this is a statistic; if U have 9 pups or 5 pups, U won't get 4.5 pups shedding in the first litter, 
or 2.5 pups shedding in the second.

this isn't an invention; it's a well-known fact in Doodles, whether Lab, Golden, or any other cross. 
only crossing to another NONshedding breed will produce all non-shedding pups, & 'nonshed' IMO 
is simply a synonym for MANDATORY GROOMING - since that's what U have with all nonshed breeds.

if U don't want to fiddle with a brush, scissors or clippers, THEN DON'T get a Poodle or any nonshed breed.

*OR if U do* - either *cord* the curly coats which mat, or STRIP the wire-coats [terrierrrists & similar]. 
a corded coat is much-lower maintenance than a clipped or scissored version - as is a hard stripped-wirecoat.

stripped wire coats don't pick up seeds, etc, protect from brush, & drop muddy crud once it dries.

CORDED coats can have the seeds, etc, clipped off, & be rumpled to break off the muddy bits, once dry.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

The coats on most Cockapoos is awful. It matts so easily and right down to the skin too. Many owners do not understand how much brushing is involved so most cockapoos have to be clipped down to the skin and kept very short because the coat is so awful at matting.

The labradoodle coat is usually much better, if you get the wiry coat. Of course, if you get the poodle coat, you are in trouble with grooming.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

from my [luckily local! ] specialty collar maker -


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> there is no such animal; Doodles do not look like Labs.
> ALL smooth-coated breeds shed daily; more or less, depending on the season, but daily.
> 
> Double-coated breeds shed heavily spring & fall, & little in-between.
> ...


That's fair enough! Like I said didn't know alot about labradoodles other than they existed. Poodle type breeds wouldn't be for me to be honest, havnt got anything against them, just not to my tastes


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

I don't agree with the 50% thing. I am a member of an cockapoo forum & I will tell you that on a 'does your dog shed' thread, almost every single person said that the ONLY time they ever found hair is when they had been groomed, it didn't fall out all over the house like shedding breeds do, so i'm not sure that is right tbh... But if you don't own one then you probably wouldn't understand the differece in coats.
But yes they are prone to more matting & need to be groomed regularly, but I wmuch rather have to brush my dog than have hairs from it all over my bed & sofa & floor etc to clean everyday, so each to their own IMO, everyone likes different things.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I get asked the same about my dog all the time...do thy shed...and the answer is yes and no. I was given penny from being a puppy and the owner said she wouldn't shed because she was a cavachon...which is basically a posh name for a cross between a bichon freese and a king Charles spaniel lol ...and although as far as I'm aware bichons don't mount...when i brush penny handfuls come out and flies everywhere....so it's there waiting...but just doesn't come out till i brush her...and if i don't brush her twice a day...more when she's had a good run on the beach she starts biting and itching at herself and it comes out anyway....I don't think you can say for sure until you see or yourself to be honest especially with the newer breeds...


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## freddies_mum (Apr 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> pardon me -
> 
> HALF THE PUPS in the F1 litters will shed; HALF will not.
> obviously, this is a statistic; if U have 9 pups or 5 pups, U won't get 4.5 pups shedding in the first litter,
> ...


Statistically maybe, but genetics don't always work that way. In the same way as you can have a litter of say 8 boys and 1 girl, so you can get 8 fleecy coats and 1 smooth, or the other way round, or anything in between.

And of course by the time you get to 3rd or 4th generations, coat types are a lot more consistent.


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## freddies_mum (Apr 12, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> The coats on most Cockapoos is awful. It matts so easily and right down to the skin too. Many owners do not understand how much brushing is involved so most cockapoos have to be clipped down to the skin and kept very short because the coat is so awful at matting.
> 
> The labradoodle coat is usually much better, if you get the wiry coat. Of course, if you get the poodle coat, you are in trouble with grooming.


They don't have 'awful coats'. They have stunningly soft curly or wavy coats, which can easily be kept that way with a bit of responsible ownership. Like lots of fellow doodle owners I have a permanent grooming station set up so I can keep on top of my three's coats.

The reason most cockerpoos are clipped isn't because their owners have let them get so matted that they have to be clipped (though I'm not disputing that this will happen occasionally, like any dog with a curly coat), but rather that a lot of them have poodle-like coats which grow and grow and grow so have to be clipped or trimmed.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> in the F1 litters [Poodle x Lab], _Fifty-Percent of the pups_ will shed;
> 50% will not. This cannot be determined until the pup is 6 to 7-MO & blows their puppy-coat;
> the adult coat will either shed profusely [Lab-style, every day] or be nonshedding AKA *mat* -
> 
> ...


So very true...i would have had penny either way because of the nature in which I came to get her...but boy did i get a shock when I realised how much it took to keep her fur in good condition...it isn't for looks it's purely because if he doesn't get through brushing at least twice a day she will matt up...which will make her nibble which makes the matts twist on themselves and it hurts the poor dog...and this is every single day..then there's bathing.....brush...de matt.....and only then can she be bathed...then brushed and dried because she's got such a thick coat it takes to long to dry without a dryer...it takes ages .which I don't mind in the slightest don't get me wrong ..it's not much different to my having to brush a lot of excess hair from Tex....but many people do mind but don't realise because a lot of people think just because their puppy fur doesn't shed they won't shed.....i've even seen breeders put this in their ads and they can not possibly know....and often this is how dogs end up in bad condition with bad skin through lack of grooming.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> ...it isn't for looks it's purely because if he doesn't get through brushing at least twice a day she will matt up...which will make her nibble which makes the matts twist on themselves and it hurts the poor dog...and this is every single day..then there's bathing.....brush...de matt.....and only then can she be bathed...then brushed and dried because she's got such a thick coat it takes to long to dry without a dryer...it takes ages


See, this is what I don't get. Why would anyone want to breed these problems into dogs, just for the sake of producing a popular fashionable cross breed. To me it's no different from breeding unhealthy dogs, or dogs so exaggerated they have health problems.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> See, this is what I don't get. Why would anyone want to breed these problems into dogs, just for the sake of producing a popular fashionable cross breed. To me it's no different from breeding unhealthy dogs, or dogs so exaggerated they have health problems.


Your guess is as good as mine m8....all I know is that some idiot bred her along with 5 or 6 others and not one of them was wanted....pretty horrible really....she could have had 10 different breeds in her but i'd have still taken her on because nobody else wanted her.....


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## freddies_mum (Apr 12, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> See, this is what I don't get. Why would anyone want to breed these problems into dogs, just for the sake of producing a popular fashionable cross breed. To me it's no different from breeding unhealthy dogs, or dogs so exaggerated they have health problems.


Because a lot of us don't think they are problems! And certainly not the same as breeding in health problems. Just part of life. Mine don't take that much grooming. 2-3 times a week keeps on top of them with a bit more if they've been to the beach or rolling in mud!

There's lots of pedigree dogs with similar coats. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't be bred either?


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I was talking about the idiots who leave 2 in tact dogs together knowing that the girl is in season.....so called accidental breeding...not the breeders who do it properly. Penny came from someone who didn't even realise the mum was pregnant till she was almost ready to deliver....


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

freddies_mum said:


> Because a lot of us don't think they are problems! And certainly not the same as breeding in health problems. Just part of life. Mine don't take that much grooming. 2-3 times a week keeps on top of them with a bit more if they've been to the beach or rolling in mud!
> 
> There's lots of pedigree dogs with similar coats. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't be bred either?


I'm sure i've clipped a dog llike yours before....are their coats wavy and not as thick as it looks...grows really quick?


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## freddies_mum (Apr 12, 2009)

Clare7435 said:


> I'm sure i've clipped a dog llike yours before....are their coats wavy and not as thick as it looks...grows really quick?


Pretty much. One of mine is curlier than the other, and both matt after being in the sea or river but not otherwise. And not that difficult to get out.

This is Freddie before and after clipping:


















And Darcey:


















ETA, these are my cockerpoos. My labradoodle has a soft fleece that hardly sheds but also is not curly, and so far doesn't need clipping (he is 22 months old). He needs regular grooming as his hair does shed but catches in the fleece rather than dropping out, so it needs brushing out. But he is easy and fairly quick to do. This is him after a good bath and brush:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> There's lots of pedigree dogs with similar coats. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't be bred either?


Not that dogs shouldn't be bred but thought should go into correct coat. There are purebreds that, through poor breeding practices have poor coats - westies are a classic example of that.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

freddies_mum said:


> Pretty much. One of mine is curlier than the other, and both matt after being in the sea or river but not otherwise. And not that difficult to get out.
> 
> This is Freddie before and after clipping:
> 
> ...


It was a freddie dog  and when i first saw him i thought no chance could i do it but when i looked through it and realised how much thicker it looks than it actually is i realised they are so much easier to groom than Penny...hers grows more in thickness than in length but like i said, as long as i keep on top of it it stays ok....


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

freddies_mum said:


> They don't have 'awful coats'. They have stunningly soft curly or wavy coats, which can easily be kept that way with a bit of responsible ownership. Like lots of fellow doodle owners I have a permanent grooming station set up so I can keep on top of my three's coats.
> 
> The reason most cockerpoos are clipped isn't because their owners have let them get so matted that they have to be clipped (though I'm not disputing that this will happen occasionally, like any dog with a curly coat), but rather that a lot of them have poodle-like coats which grow and grow and grow so have to be clipped or trimmed.


Yes Mine has a soft poodle coat and isn't that bad to look after. I brush and comb him and yes he can get the odd matt and he goes to groomers every 8 wks for a short clip as that is how we like it, plus it grows sooooooo quick.

He has a beautiful coat and we do get people wanting to stroke him because of it- and at present we are debating as to whether he has inherited a silver gene or the blue poodle gene. 
My groomer loves to groom him too


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> See, this is what I don't get. Why would anyone want to breed these problems into dogs, just for the sake of producing a popular fashionable cross breed. To me it's no different from breeding unhealthy dogs, or dogs so exaggerated they have health problems.


Please don't invent things to get cross about. I'm sure the "brushing twice a day or the world ends" is a slight (massive) exaggeration (did you see what I did there). There are enough real exaggerations that have been deliberately bred into to dogs to get cross about without making any up.

We have four crosses... they all need brushing and grooming but no more than a poodle or a golden retriever (what a coincidence) and of the 1000+ I have contact with who have similar crosses (including hundreds of cocker x poodle) the situation stated just doesn't occur. Yes they need grooming and yes they matt, but only if left unkempt for a long period.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

freddies_mum said:


> They don't have 'awful coats'. They have stunningly soft curly or wavy coats, which can easily be kept that way with a bit of responsible ownership. Like lots of fellow doodle owners I have a permanent grooming station set up so I can keep on top of my three's coats.
> 
> The reason most cockerpoos are clipped isn't because their owners have let them get so matted that they have to be clipped (though I'm not disputing that this will happen occasionally, like any dog with a curly coat), but rather that a lot of them have poodle-like coats which grow and grow and grow so have to be clipped or trimmed.


I am a dog groomer and I have seen the terrible state that cockapoos come in. They have been the worst matted coats by far that i have seen.

Just to point out, by awful, i mean that it matts very easily. I personally love the look and feel of a cockapoo coat, so I'm not saying that the coat is awful to touch or look at, just the matting aspect.

And yes, sometimes they are clipped for style, but sometimes they are clipped because they are so matted that it would be cruel to brush it out.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Just to point out, by awful, i mean that it matts very easily. I personally love the look and feel of a cockapoo coat, so I'm not saying that the coat is awful to touch or look at, just the matting aspect.


How long would you suggest it takes the coat to matt?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> How long would you suggest it takes the coat to matt?


within a week, with no brushing and walking in sand/mud/water.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> How long would you suggest it takes the coat to matt?


The coats don't actually matt up if you get to them every day...I use the mikki matt splitter on penny as soon as i see one..that thing cost me 16 quid which i moaned at at the tie but by god was it worth the money....


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

redginald said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a labradoodle or a cockapoo?! What are they like? Labs with funky hair? Or do you ever get a poodle with lab like hair? I take it a cockapoo is a cocker poodle cross?


i've seen a couple labradoodles one was medium sized and

had short hair the other was the size of a donkey and looked like a komondor, and yep cockapoo is a cocker cross poodle .


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> within a week, with no brushing and walking in sand/mud/water.


About the same as an unclipped poodle?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> About the same as an unclipped poodle?


possibly. But I think poodle owners go into ownership with their eyes wide open to the grooming aspect of a poodle, whereas _some_ cockapoo owners don't know about how much grooming is involved, and so then the dog matts.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> I've met a few, lovely dogs
> 
> Goldendoodles....well that's anotehr story but maybe because all the ones I met were american?


 Oh why whats wrong with Goldens?



5rivers79 said:


> Take your beloved breed the cockerpoo for example imo it looks so similar to the Lagotto Romagnolo..so why breed something that looks similar when there is already a similar looking breed?


Temprament/upkeep is completely different - are you recommending people should just get a dog based on its looks? 



AlisonLyn said:


> I suggest you get off your high horse lady! It is NOT the breed but the deed and I know of a Labradoodle near here who is always jumping up at people and hyper, scaring kids etc.


Can't see the need to be rude but in any case if you looked around the forum you would know she was simply quoting threads 5Rivers has started/contributed to



rocco33 said:


> See, this is what I don't get. Why would anyone want to breed these problems into dogs, just for the sake of producing a popular fashionable cross breed. To me it's no different from breeding unhealthy dogs, or dogs so exaggerated they have health problems.


No different than problem coats with pedigrees - I previously had a Tibetan Terrier and it was 10 times harder to look after his coat. My dog is 16 months old, brushed virtually every day - yes he sheds loads but then thats probably why he doesn't matt. As you can see he still has a full coat and has never been cut let alone shaved


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

We had one wavy coated Labradoodle that shed like mad, but that didn't matter because we loved the dog. 

Our next one was an F1b - a Labradoodle backcrossed with a poodle. She is very curly - looks lab like but has a poodle coat. I have her clipped every 8 to 12 weeks depending on the season.

It's not rocket science


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> Oh I see. I didn't realise the badly bred ones were bred like this. Because I know a lot of the time it's the way they've been groomed.
> 
> Sorry to take the thread off topic.


It's not that they're badly bred as such, well, depends on your point of view, it's that they have been bred without function in mind. So the wiry coat has developed into a soft coat, which is no good for the function for which a Westie was originally bred. It's happened with other terrier types, the Scottie and Sealyham spring to mind.

The problem I think highlighted by this thread, is the general perception that poodle crosses are non-moulting, which isn't possible, nor is it statistically probable for an F1 mating; it's a bit like saying you'll get all boys from a mating, you can't possibly say that, it could be 50% of each, 100% of one or the other, and any other mixture you can think of. And it's not *just* the non-moulting issue, it's the grooming they require which can take people by surprise. So you've gone from having the belief that you've got a dog with an easy coat to look after, that won't flare up your allergies, to one that may well be a nightmare because of the grooming requirements and shedding. To be honest, a lot of those who breed them are as ignorant of the situation as those buying them, I've seen people post on forums about making a quick buck by breeding hypoallergenic pups, and I've had to endure someone wittering on about it all day at a fair I had a stand at. But then it is ignorance about breeding, and that's across the board, not just for poodle crosses, but as has been shown with Westies, that means we end up with dogs that are higher maintenance than they should be. Fair enough for those breeds that are bred specifically to look like a mop head, but there's no need in the modern day to add to the number of problems our dogs have, by not taking coat into account when looking at a breeding plan, imo.


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## AlisonLyn (Sep 2, 2011)

Surely though, if these dogs were bred for supposedly nonshedding to prevent allergies there are still issues with dander and saliva allergies? I think the person who said that surely anything crossed with a Poodle automatically breeds unshedding dogs which obviously is a ridiculous supposition as surely the Labs and Retrievers are notorious shedders and override the nonshedding in simplicistic terms? As far as i know there are no breeds that do not she any single hairs in their life


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

AlisonLyn said:


> Surely though, if these dogs were bred for supposedly nonshedding to prevent allergies there are still issues with dander and saliva allergies? I think the person who said that surely anything crossed with a Poodle automatically breeds unshedding dogs which obviously is a ridiculous supposition as surely the Labs and Retrievers are notorious shedders and override the nonshedding in simplicistic terms? As far as i know there are no breeds that do not she any single hairs in their life


You're assuming the majority of the puppy buying public are intelligent enough to know this?

Cockerpoos I think I'm right in saying, were first introduced as a companion cross breed sometime around 35 years ago, in the US. Labradoodles, as most know, were an attempt at creating an assistance dog, that is more hypoallergenic than a Labrador, or any of the other commonly used pedigree breed tyes, such as GSD's and GR's. Unfortunately, the name got pounced on, and the Labradoodle phenomenon took off, there is still one hugely notorious puppy farm on the go in Australia, selling the *original* Labradoodle, charging vast sums of money and routinely neutering/spaying pups before shipping, so as to prevent anyone else cashing in from breeding their Labradoodle.

Both cross breeds have a loyal following, almost fanatical in some instances, and yet very few people I know push for the same ethics when it comes to breeding, as those on here who promote ethical breeding of pedigrees, or any dog. The pedigree dog world definitely needs to always strive to improve it's breeding practices, but so does the cross breed world, and put behind them the excuses *some* use that cross breeds don't require health testing etc, as we know this to be untrue. Fortunately, there are some that are pushing for this, most I know are from this forum, and I hope they do make some headway, I know what it feels like trying to help people find well bred, and ethically bred pedigrees, it must be just the same nightmare when it comes to cross breeds


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## sezra (May 20, 2011)

I really don't like Cockapoos and Labradoodles being called hypo allergenic, I believe it is very misleading. I know people (myself included) who suffer from animal allergies but are not affected by Cockapoos but this is not always the case and the public need to know that there is a risk of shedding and allergies. 

Any lovely dog with long or curly hair is going to need a lot of maintenence and I am sure there are many puppy buyers who have bought crosses and pedigrees without proper consideration to the work involved in maintaining the coat in good condition. I know of someone locally who just keeps their Cockapoo short so that they don't have to worry about grooming however I personally love the shaggy look and realise that if I want to keep it I will have to put in the grooing time (and that's just for my own hair!  ). I have spent a fortune recently as Daisy's coat is changing, on shampoo, conditioner, de tangler, two new brushes and a rolled leather collar!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Do they shed their fur?


how the friggin heck dId whe get onto cockerpoos , snooty pedigree owners etc,

when all the OP asked was do Labradoodles shed their coat.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

If I missed any posts that needed removing please hit the report button....


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

back on topic Labradoodles do they shed/moult?


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Cockerpoos I think I'm right in saying, were first introduced as a companion cross breed sometime around 35 years ago, in the US.


Try about 60 years :S They've been bred in America since the 1950s, that we know of, and who knows how long they have really been around.
At the end of the day it's not just about a non-shedding dog with a coat that needs grooming.
Good breeders only have temperment in mind, they get their intelligence from the poodle & their lovely nature from the cocker, that is the main reason the 'good' cockapoo breeders do breed these types of dogs.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> Try about 60 years :S They've been bred in America since the 1950s, that we know of, and who knows how long they have really been around.
> At the end of the day it's not just about a non-shedding dog with a coat that needs grooming.
> Good breeders only have temperment in mind, they get their intelligence from the poodle & their lovely nature from the cocker, that is the main reason the 'good' cockapoo breeders do breed these types of dogs.


I did originally type since the 1950's, but wasn't 100% sure, so revised it before posting.

Temperament is good, but conformation issues need to also be taken into account, particularly for LP, along with other health issues, and obviously, as has been posted in the title, coat issues


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I did originally type since the 1950's, but wasn't 100% sure, so revised it before posting.
> 
> Temperament is good, but conformation issues need to also be taken into account, particularly for LP, along with other health issues, and obviously, as has been posted in the title, coat issues


Fair enough, & yes I agree, people should be told the truth about their coats, & reputable breeders do tell you that any poodle cross could shed, but in regards to cockapoos (I don't know as much about labradoodles) it generally is much less than the cocker breed (most of the time).
But it's breeders who just do the odd litters & want to sell for money that generally advertise them as something they're not & it's a shame. The place we got ours from is great & told us everything, from shedding to grooming & he makes no secret of it on the website either.
But they are mainly bred for temperment as they are generally such lovely natured dogs for family pets, & that should be the main reason to breed a dog as a pet IMO. They just need to warn customers about the negatives as well.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> Fair enough, & yes I agree, people should be told the truth about their coats, & reputable breeders do tell you that any poodle cross could shed, but in regards to cockapoos (I don't know as much about labradoodles) it generally is much less than the cocker breed (most of the time).
> But it's breeders who just do the odd litters & want to sell for money that generally advertise them as something they're not & it's a shame. The place we got ours from is great & told us everything, from shedding to grooming & he makes no secret of it on the website either.
> But they are mainly bred for temperment as they are generally such lovely natured dogs for family pets, & that should be the main reason to breed a dog as a pet IMO. They just need to warn customers about the negatives as well.


I'd disagree, I know of several commercial breeders who churn pups out, some would call them puppy farmers with half a conscience. To me, they add far more to the problem with any perception about cross breeds, to do with coat issues, than the occasional breeder.


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'd disagree, I know of several commercial breeders who churn pups out, some would call them puppy farmers with half a conscience. To me, they add far more to the problem with any perception about cross breeds, to do with coat issues, than the occasional breeder.


Not the one I got mine from, he writes in detail about any negatives on his website, but he breeds for temperment & health as that is the most important thing. Puppy farms aren't reputable breeders though IMO, so I wouldn't class them as someone who would tell the truth about anything.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> Not the one I got mine from, he writes in detail about any negatives on his website, but he breeds for temperment & health as that is the most important thing. Puppy farms aren't reputable breeders though IMO, so I wouldn't class them as someone who would tell the truth about anything.


True, but it's a fine line between what some would call a puppy farmer, or a reputeable breeder, believe it or not. And you'd be surprised at the support some of these so called reputeable breeders get, nice for them to drive around in their new cars enjoying life whilst putting ten or more bitches through whelp each year, for no other reason than to make a bundle of cash, doing the minimum of health tests, and keeping their dogs in less than ideal conditions for whelping. And yet people seem to think they are saintly. I know from joining a cockapoo forum, when I deigned to promote good breeding, my ideas regarding this weren't the first thing people were interested in, more my old posts from this forum relating to such a breeder. Nice that I then received anonymous phone calls from people who didn't have the guts to actually speak to me in person, but felt that they could try and intimidate me into not having an opinion.

I've actually been invited back onto the forum by members who agree with me, but choose not to go back there, feeling that as possible headway is being made in promoting good breeding practices, I don't want to rock the boat.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

talking of coat issues in cockapoos reminds me of this thread...the poor dog....and breeders like these imo should be avoided like the plague!

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-grooming/171891-cockapoo-grooming.html


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

freddies_mum said:


> ...by the time you get to 3rd or 4th generations,
> coat types are a lot more consistent.


as i already said - 
breeders who've produced Lab x Poodle *for multiple generations, over 30 years,* 
STILL find pups who shed, despite being born from 2 parents who do not, non-shed grandparents, 
great-grand, etc.

there are many, many more than '3 or 4 generations' in THIRTY YEARS of breeding. 
even if every dog bred is a minimum of 2-YO, that's at least 15 generations!


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Temperament is good, but conformation issues need to also be taken into account, particularly for LP, )


I know I've asked this before but "conformation" to what ?

And LP ? Law and Philosophy...Lincolnshire Police... Limited Partnership... Law, Probability & Risk (ooo that's got an R)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I know I've asked this before but "conformation" to what ?
> 
> And LP ? Law and Philosophy...Lincolnshire Police... Limited Partnership... Law, Probability & Risk (ooo that's got an R)


Conformation as in structural issues that may have any bearing on health, LP is luxating patella, something all breeders of small breeds need to bear in mind. I know one cockapoo owner who has spent a fortune on her dog, both knees suffer from LP, neither parent was looked at for this, nor health tested in any way


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> I don't agree with the 50% thing.


FIFTY PERCENT of Poodle-crosses shed *when crossed with a daily-shedding smooth-coated breed - * 
[like, duh!, a Labrador?...]

i was replying to the OP's question, DO LABRADOR x POODLES SHED?

the answer is Yes, half of them do; U will not know if YOUR PUPPY is among that shedding 50% until the pup 
blows their natal-coat at approx 6 to 7-MO.

are we clear, now? 

Do COCKERS shed every day? 
are they a SMOOTH COATED breed?

then why do U assume that i refer to Cocker x Poodle mixes as '50% shed'...?


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Conformation as in structural issues that may have any bearing on health, LP is luxating patella, something all breeders of small breeds need to bear in mind. I know one cockapoo owner who has spent a fortune on her dog, both knees suffer from LP, neither parent was looked at for this, nor health tested in any way


Sorry still lost me. I understand that with a pedigree dog you "conform" to the breed standards (whether that is healthy or not is a whole other thread in a whole other life) but what should a dog without a breed standard conform to?

We have a Toy Poodle with LP (first time I've seen the acronym but it means other things my world) but there's nothing in the breed standard for Toy Poodle that mentions conformation to any standard relating to knees or testing, even though (I understand) the problem is common.

The breed standard does say he's supposed to be "gay spirited" and he's not (miserable little sh** but we love him) but nothing about kness


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Sorry still lost me. I understand that with a pedigree dog you "conform" to the breed standards (whether that is healthy or not is a whole other thread in a whole other life) but what should a dog without a breed standard conform to?
> 
> We have a Toy Poodle with LP (first time I've seen the acronym but it means other things my world) but there's nothing in the breed standard for Toy Poodle that mentions conformation to any standard relating to knees or testing, even though (I understand) the problem is common.
> 
> The breed standard does say he's supposed to be "gay spirited" and he's not (miserable little sh** but we love him) but nothing about kness


Quickly googling as cream crackered and just about to serve our tea, but hopefully wikapedia has come up trumps:

Conformation show - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Conformation is relating to how a dog is built, and that can be very important for health reasons, for example a Labrador with an upright stifle or knee joint, is more prone to cruciate ligament issues, so that should be borne in mind when breeding, ie to breed for the correct angulation.

The BS for Labs says keen nose, but I have yet to see that tested in the show ring, except for the bait bag 

Perhaps it's lazy typing on my part, I just shortened to LP, I'm used to seeing all sorts of abbreviations, HC, PRA, CNM, EIC, there are so many health tests relating to Labs, I get used to abbreviating everything!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> ...nothing in the breed standard for Toy Poodle... mentions conformation to any standard
> relating to knees or testing, even though (I understand) the problem is common.


check the KC 'recommended tests' list for breeders.

ETHICAL breeders will check for this in toy & giant breeds, even if it is NOT 'required' nor 'recommended' 
for their breed; toys usually suffer *medial* luxation, Giants generally suffer *lateral* luxation.

see 
Patellar luxation


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

AlisonLyn said:


> ...if these dogs were bred [to be] supposedly nonshedding, to prevent allergies, there are still issues
> with dander & saliva allergies?


precisely.

the original INTENT was to produce non-shed coats of low allergenic type *for dog-allergic blind handlers.*

obviously, this would have been a very, very small market, even nationwide in the USA - just how many 
blind persons who want a guide-dog are *allergic to dogs?!* that's not a common combination!

instead, having produced the crossbred dogs & run out of buyers / blind handlers, the breeders decided 
to give the cross a cute label & promote them as 'hypoallergenic', NONshed, easy to train, etc, etc.

:cursing: IMO extremely UNethical & entirely mercenary behavior.



AlisonLyn said:


> AFAIK, there are no breeds that do not shed any single hairs in their life.


there are basically 2 coat-types re shedding:

dogs who shed hair OFF their body, or dogs who shed hair INTO their coats. 
Labs are in group 1; Poodles are in Group 2.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> talking of coat issues in cockapoos reminds me of this thread...the poor dog....and breeders like these imo should be avoided like the plague!
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-grooming/171891-cockapoo-grooming.html


I must admit I'm not a fan of the 'shaggy' look and prefer short coated breeds. Having watched the videos I'm relieved that I like the look my low maintenance labs - why on earth would you want a dog with such a high maintenance coat.


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## freddies_mum (Apr 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> as i already said -
> breeders who've produced Lab x Poodle *for multiple generations, over 30 years,*
> STILL find pups who shed, despite being born from 2 parents who do not, non-shed grandparents,
> great-grand, etc.
> ...


Are there any UK doodle breeders who have been breeding that long? I doubt it. I would guess that your 30 years + are ASDs aka Australian Labradoodles, which despite being sold for £1,000+ really are Heinz57s as they have used so many different breeds to add this or that (e.g I've seen merle Aussies, presumably with a bit of collie in a few generations back). But maybe this is all part of developing a breed as the Aussies are the only type of 'doodle' that seem to bred true.

Personally I wouldn't touch them because, even though they are lovely dogs and there are good breeders in the UK, they all seem to link back to Rutland Manor/ Tegan Park. And if you've never heard those names google them as it's too horrific to go into here


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> I must admit I'm not a fan of the 'shaggy' look and prefer short coated breeds. Having watched the videos I'm relieved that I like the look my low maintenance labs - why on earth would you want a dog with such a high maintenance coat.


blimey i know! im all for an easy life me lol, sibes may have their moults but the rest of the time their coats are so low maintenance its ace!.....they never even need a bath unless theyre being shown lol

i dont know if the dog in the videos actually belonged to the breeder/groomer? but if so then she should be ashamed letting him get it a state like that!


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

I give you the prime example then .. first cross labradoodle. Very little shedding ( a hell of a lot less than our collies)... no matting... no grooming required (other than the odd bit of fox poo removal).


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

we're working on the cat flap fixation but I didn't say she was perfect :confused1:


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> blimey i know! im all for an easy life me lol, sibes may have their moults but the rest of the time their coats are so low maintenance its ace!.....they never even need a bath unless theyre being shown lol
> 
> i dont know if the dog in the videos actually belonged to the breeder/groomer? but if so then she should be ashamed letting him get it a state like that!


This is why i like malamutes, sibes etc and even my springer rarely matted just the ears on occasion but the toy poodle I had got mats almost daily and it drove me crazy  I couldn't ever own a poodle after that, it's too much grooming.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

SpringerHusky said:


> This is why i like malamutes, sibes etc and even my springer rarely matted just the ears on occasion but the toy poodle I had got mats almost daily and it drove me crazy  I couldn't ever own a poodle after that, it's too much grooming.


never had a poodle so i dont know much about their grooming needs but i would imagine they were highish maintenance, but we had springer and like your Barney it was just the odd mat on his ears, apart from that he was pretty easy...he did need bathing quite regularly tho.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> never had a poodle so i dont know much about their grooming needs but i would imagine they were highish maintenance, but we had springer and like your Barney it was just the odd mat on his ears, apart from that he was pretty easy...he did need bathing quite regularly tho.


Yeah, Maya is a very clean dog minus her need to roll in the most rankest of things  so baths are limited.

I guess I just don't have the patience to spend ages grooming, 5-10 minutes is enough for me.

I'd rather have a shedding dog than non simply for grooming factors.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Our Toy Poodle gets no mats but we keep him quite short. He's got a lot of issues (luxating patellas, a number of allergies, cushings disease, poor eyes etc etc) but he has a lovely (if grumpy) personality.

He's clipped every eight weeks... only costs a few quid and we brush him of course but I'd not say he's high maintenance....


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> This is why i like malamutes, sibes etc and even my springer rarely matted just the ears on occasion but the toy poodle I had got mats almost daily and it drove me crazy  I couldn't ever own a poodle after that, it's too much grooming.


Well anyone wanting a dog with minimum grooming then it just HAS to be the weimaraner!
The on;y problem I have is washing the sh$t of their costs cos it 'blends' in so well!


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

DT said:


> Well anyone wanting a dog with minimum grooming then it just HAS to be the weimaraner!
> The on;y problem I have is washing the sh$t of their costs cos it 'blends' in so well!


Can't DT, allergies to short haired dogs


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2011)

McKenzie only sheds very minimally - you'll see a few white hairs on black trousers a few times a year. She doesn't matt and I only brush her when I remember which is sometimes once every 2 weeks!  I have asthma and allergies (I'm allergic to my cat ) but have no problems with Kenzie.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Could be the cocker element. Oscar is very high maintenence as his coat is so thick (i have owned springers and Oscars coat is significantly higher maintenence)

I have to keep him clipped but soon as he gets any length tto his coat it does matt quite badly. 

Could it be that some cockerpoos are poodles being crossed with cockers who have this very dense heavy coat type ??


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

DT said:


> Well anyone wanting a dog with minimum grooming then it just HAS to be the weimaraner!
> The on;y problem I have is washing the sh$t of their costs cos it 'blends' in so well!


Aren't vizlas relatively good for people with allergies aswell?! Just a thought as they remind me of weimaraners (if thats spelt wrong it's your fault) I've heard they aren't that smelly aswell:confused1:


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Why are they called Cockerpoo and not Cockerdoodle?


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

No idea :S Got a better ring to it? Like labradoodle sounds better than labrapoo?
Who knows, why is any dog breed called what they are? Wonder who named them all haha.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

LauraIzPops said:


> No idea :S Got a better ring to it? Like labradoodle sounds better than labrapoo?
> Who knows, why is any dog breed called what they are? Wonder who named them all haha.


Akita was named after a region in japan..kinda makes sense really 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akita_Prefecture


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Could be the cocker element. Oscar is very high maintenence as his coat is so thick (i have owned springers and Oscars coat is significantly higher maintenence)
> 
> I have to keep him clipped but soon as he gets any length tto his coat it does matt quite badly.
> 
> Could it be that some cockerpoos are poodles being crossed with cockers who have this very dense heavy coat type ??


Tbh, I've yet to see any cockerpoo breeder, who breeds from any good cocker stock, they don't seem to have the faintest idea.

I will say, to be fair, that many Lab breeders don't have the faintest idea, however, given the task of finding a well bred Lab, over a well bred cockerpoo, I think I know which one I would find less daunting!


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## sezra (May 20, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Could be the cocker element. Oscar is very high maintenence as his coat is so thick (i have owned springers and Oscars coat is significantly higher maintenence)
> 
> I have to keep him clipped but soon as he gets any length tto his coat it does matt quite badly.
> 
> Could it be that some cockerpoos are poodles being crossed with cockers who have this very dense heavy coat type ??


It could be...Daisy's Mum was a show cocker with a fabulous black coat. Daisy has a wavy/spiral coat rather than curly that does not shed but moults in to itself. I am forever having to check behind her ears and under her armpit area for mats! However I know of Cockapoos with working cocker Mums with much shorter finer coats but they still matt if not cared for.


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## LauraIzPops (Oct 2, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Akita was named after a region in japan..kinda makes sense really
> 
> Akita Prefecture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Fair enough  I do wonder how some names were thought up though, obviously fancy names for cross breeds just come from mixing the two original names together in some kind of order, but would be interesting to see how all breed names were thought up & why.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Labradoodles are called that because LABRADor x pOODLE

Why Goldendoodles got called that makes no real sense.

Cockerpoo sounds better than Cockoodle :lol:

The names picked for breed/mixes can be down right silly sometimes.

Nova scotia duck tolling retriever

Treeing Walker Coonhound

Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog

 they all have thier reasons though :lol:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LauraIzPops said:


> Fair enough  I do wonder how some names were thought up though, obviously fancy names for cross breeds just come from mixing the two original names together in some kind of order, but would be interesting to see how all breed names were thought up & why.


Labrador - mistaken identity, as they are actually from Newfoundland, so their name came about from a geographical error. They were imported by the shooting gentry, for their ability to retrieve. They were used, originally, to retrieve from water, although this is utilised in the breed today, they are the ultimate all rounder, hence their popularity, and their overall dominance of retriever competitions.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Labrador - mistaken identity, as they are actually from Newfoundland, so their name came about from a geographical error. They were imported by the shooting gentry, for their ability to retrieve. They were used, originally, to retrieve from water, although this is utilised in the breed today, they are the ultimate all rounder, hence their popularity, and their overall dominance of retriever competitions.


Speaking of which it's rather funny that some breeds are named after places they don't come from.

Australian shepherd-American
English shepherd-American
Japanese chin-Chinese
Great dane-German

Rather funny in some ways.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Labrador - mistaken identity, as they are actually from Newfoundland, so their name came about from a geographical error. They were imported by the shooting gentry, for their ability to retrieve. They were used, originally, to retrieve from water, although this is utilised in the breed today, they are the ultimate all rounder, hence their popularity, and their overall dominance of retriever competitions.


I thought (would like to emphasise THOUGHT and don't know as fact)that the lab was bred from Newfoundlands and another smaller retriever type to create a smaller, more agile Newfoundland to help with fishing and would have probably been named a Newfoundland had the name not been taken? As for the mixed breed names how was my sausage rot noodle deleted earlier? Was this offensive to anybody?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

redginald said:


> I thought (would like to emphasise THOUGHT and don't know as fact)that the lab was bred from Newfoundlands and another smaller retriever type to create a smaller, more agile Newfoundland to help with fishing and would have probably been named a Newfoundland had the name not been taken? As for the mixed breed names how was my sausage rot noodle deleted earlier? Was this offensive to anybody?


No, the labrador was descended from the St Johns Water Dog which was a naturally occuring dog from Newfoundland. They are now extinct, but were brought over to the UK and used as retrievers.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

But Labrador and Newfoundland form one province in Canada, so not really a geographical mistake


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

redginald said:


> I thought (would like to emphasise THOUGHT and don't know as fact)that the lab was bred from Newfoundlands and another smaller retriever type to create a smaller, more agile Newfoundland to help with fishing and would have probably been named a Newfoundland had the name not been taken? As for the mixed breed names how was my sausage rot noodle deleted earlier? Was this offensive to anybody?





rocco33 said:


> No, the labrador was descended from the St Johns Water Dog which was a naturally occuring dog from Newfoundland. They are now extinct, but were brought over to the UK and used as retrievers.


Nope, sorry, but what rocco said, the Labrador Retriever, is a dog that comes from the St John's Dog, but is not berd specifically for water retreives. The Labrador comes from the lesser Newfoundland, amongst other breeds to make a significant input into the design of this dog, what you can't argue, is that it hasn't worked


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Conformation as in structural issues that may have any bearing on health, LP is luxating patella, something all breeders of small breeds need to bear in mind. I know one cockapoo owner who has spent a fortune on her dog, both knees suffer from LP, neither parent was looked at for this, nor health tested in any way


 LP is common as you say in the toy breeds and for those breeders who do use toy poodles in producing cockapoos then it would be ideal to ensure where possible that a dog with LP is not mated with.

In the main most cockapoos are bred with mini poodles which LP is not as yet a recommendation for health testing by KC /breedclubs.

As far as I am aware there is not a UK screening programme for LP like there is with the BVA eye schemes and HD???? and think it is at present something that is diagnosed by the vet when the condition sadly has presented itself. ( if anyone knows differently please can they let me know)

It is a congenital disease and hopefully it would be nice if this could be a DNA test one day.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> No, the labrador was descended from the St Johns Water Dog which was a naturally occuring dog from Newfoundland. They are now extinct, but were brought over to the UK and used as retrievers.





bearcub said:


> But Labrador and Newfoundland form one province in Canada, so not really a geographical mistake





Sleeping_Lion said:


> Nope, sorry, but what rocco said, the Labrador Retriever, is a dog that comes from the St John's Dog, but is not berd specifically for water retreives. The Labrador comes from the lesser Newfoundland, amongst other breeds to make a significant input into the design of this dog, what you can't argue, is that it hasn't worked


Good stuff!, I always thought there was Newfoundland blood in the lab but stand corrected!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> [luxating patella] is a congenital disease and hopefully it would be nice
> if this could be a DNA test one day.


i do not think so - 
like HIP DYSPLASIA i think that slipping-kneecaps are developmental as well as genetic.

the current best approx of HD is 40% heritability & SIXTY-percent environs / rearing: 
IOW it is possible to have parents with excellent hips, yet by rearing pups on slippery surfaces with poor traction, 
overfeeding, keeping large or giant breeds on a PUPPY diet past about 12 to 14-WO, forced exercise OR running 
pups on paved surfaces, jumping onto paved surfaces, etc, *those genes for excellent structure 
are unable to prevent damage done.*

keeping pups lean NOT fat & "cute", exercising them freely, & rearing on GOOD traction are all needed, 
in order for the promise of good hip-joints to become reality.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i do not think so -
> like HIP DYSPLASIA i think that slipping-kneecaps are developmental as well as genetic.
> 
> the current best approx of HD is 40% heritability & SIXTY-percent environs / rearing:
> ...


 The research I did on the internet on LP ( I am currently looking at health conditions in cockapoos) was :

LP is a congenital (present at birth) condition. The actual luxation may not be present at birth, but the structural changes which lead to luxation are present. Most researchers believe luxated patellas to be heritable (inherited), though the exact mode of inheritance is not known.

I found it a few times to be mentioned as congenital, but I am no expert on the subject.


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Do people not get embarrassed saying they have a 'cockapoo'? I would be mortified saying that word


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i do not think so -
> like HIP DYSPLASIA i think that slipping-kneecaps are developmental as well as genetic.
> 
> the current best approx of HD is 40% heritability & SIXTY-percent environs / rearing:
> ...


Can i just ask about the puppy diets LFL? What is it about them that are not appropriate for large/giant breed dogs? Just out of interest


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

bearcub said:


> Can i just ask about the puppy diets LFL?
> What is it about them that are not appropriate for large/giant breed dogs?
> Just out of interest


puppy diets are higher than ADULT diets in: 
- fat 
- calories per ounce [concentrated] 
- protein 
- calcium & phosphorus 
- some other minerals [collectively 'ash']

large & giant breeds need to grow SLOWLY, not be stoked like a furnace with coal. 
an adult-diet as early as 10-WO in Giants, or 12-WO in large-breeds, will still be entirely healthy 
while reducing the fat, protein & calories per ounce.

their growth then resembles a PLANE launching instead of a helicopter going up, LOL. It becomes more of a ramp, 
& less vertical. Avoiding overloading their young joints with sheer bulk that they have not the strength 
to support is the basic concept. Growing lean muscle, not sheer size & mass, is better. They still reach 
their adult size - just more slowly.


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## AlisonLyn (Sep 2, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> The research I did on the internet on LP ( I am currently looking at health conditions in cockapoos) was :
> 
> LP is a congenital (present at birth) condition. The actual luxation may not be present at birth, but the structural changes which lead to luxation are present. Most researchers believe luxated patellas to be heritable (inherited), though the exact mode of inheritance is not known.
> 
> I found it a few times to be mentioned as congenital, but I am no expert on the subject.


Yet you didn't get pups that are from health checked parents yourself?? LP is found in several breeds of dogs and hence why health checking is the way to go before breeding and getting dogs who come from health checked parents. 
A disease can be congenital AND inherited and LP is one of them; congenital means born with it and inherited means passed through from parents. To the person who didn't understand why Goldendoodles are so called I think it is because they come from crossing Golden Retrievers but surely then it gets confusing if they are black instead of Golden?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> To the person who didn't understand why Goldendoodles are so called


I think they were wondering where the d came from Golden*d*oodles

Labra*d*or x Poodle
Labrad oodle.

Golden Retriever x Poodle
Golden oodle

There isn't a d which comes from labrador. So doodles should really be oodles.


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## AlisonLyn (Sep 2, 2011)

Elles said:


> I think they were wondering where the d came from Golden*d*oodles
> 
> Labra*d*or x Poodle
> Labrad oodle.
> ...


Ah good point


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

AlisonLyn said:


> Yet you didn't get pups that are from health checked parents yourself?? LP is found in several breeds of dogs and hence why health checking is the way to go before breeding and getting dogs who come from health checked parents.
> A disease can be congenital AND inherited and LP is one of them; congenital means born with it and inherited means passed through from parents. To the person who didn't understand why Goldendoodles are so called I think it is because they come from crossing Golden Retrievers but surely then it gets confusing if they are black instead of Golden?


If you have anything to say on LP then go ahead but please refrain from bringing my dogs into it as they have nothing to do with you or this thread and making assumptions about peoples pets without knowing is rude.

FYI breeders usually look towards the KC and breedclubs for info on what health tests are required although some will go above and beyond this.

As far as I am aware LP is not on the list of recommended health tests for cockers or mini poodles . ( I am happy to be corrected by anyone who knows differently)

It is something to check if using a toy poodle however.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> my dogs into it as they have nothing to do with you or this thread


Thats true, lets start a thread on cockadoodles..sorry i meant cockapoos


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Thats true, lets start a thread on cockadoodles..sorry i meant cockapoos


Nah been there and done that it's boring now.

Much better to do a thread on " Are some men ( not all) who own big powerful dogs insecure and revel in looking hard?" that should give the keyboards a good bashing


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Nah been there and done that it's boring now.
> 
> Much better to do a thread on " Are some men ( not all) who own big powerful dogs insecure and revel in looking hard?" that should give the keyboards a good bashing


Course i revel in looking hard by owning a dog that constantly gets bit by dogs half his size then hides behind me. I think that gives a big extension to my..err..ego


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Course i revel in looking hard by owning a dog that constantly gets bit by dogs half his size then hides behind me


Sorry to go off topic but why does your dog get constantly bitten by other dogs? Is it one particular dog or any that he meets?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Sorry to go off topic but why does your dog get constantly bitten by other dogs? Is it one particular dog or any that he meets?


No idea..he goes in tail wagging and making little whimpering sounds and the other dogs seem to just go for him. Its not even one dog..its more like a new dog every couple of months.

Today different dogs at separate time..one black lab and the other a lab mix growled at him while he was trying to say hello. I can tell you i immediately pulled him away before we had a repeat of yesterday.

According to Malmum its Sammy's ears, tail and stance..its very dominating and intimidating..ears up tail up and curled and chest out. Thats his natural stance but other dogs just seem to think he is ready to fight.



















Its just the way he stands..so dunno how to change that!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> No idea..he goes in tail wagging and making little whimpering sounds and the other dogs seem to just go for him. Its not even one dog..its more like a new dog every couple of months.
> 
> Today different dogs at separate time..one black lab and the other a lab mix growled at him while he was trying to say hello. I can tell you i immediately pulled him away before we had a repeat of yesterday.
> 
> According to Malmum its Sammy's ears, tail and stance..its very dominating and intimidating..ears up tail up and curled and chest out. Thats his natural stance but other dogs just seem to think he is ready to fight.


How old is he? Adolescent dogs have an elevated testosterone level which makes them targets for older intact dogs.
http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/FightingWithDogs.pdf


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


>


Beautiful garden by the way


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> How old is he? Adolescent dogs have an elevated testosterone level which makes them targets for older intact dogs.
> http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/FightingWithDogs.pdf


14 months and 10 days to be exact


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> No idea..he goes in tail wagging and making little whimpering sounds and the other dogs seem to just go for him. Its not even one dog..its more like a new dog every couple of months.


Could you be misreading Sammy? Maybe you think he is going in friendly but actually isn't - not saying thats the case but is it a possibility


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

bearcub said:


> Beautiful garden by the way


Cheers  WAY too small though for him..not much space to run around. Will need to move before getting another dog i think.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Could you be misreading Sammy? Maybe you think he is going in friendly but actually isn't - not saying thats the case but is it a possibility


What signs should i look out for?


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> 14 months and 10 days to be exact


Mine is the same age & also intact but I don't have this problem so all seems bit strange


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> What signs should i look out for?


I don't know sorry as I don't know much about Sammy's breed sure others will know more


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> Could you be misreading Sammy? Maybe you think he is going in friendly but actually isn't - not saying thats the case but is it a possibility


It's very common in dogs with curled tails and perked ears to be attacked by other dogs. It's the same as black dogs that are attacked, some dogs struggle to ready their body language signals.

If it was Sammy as an akita i'm pretty sure it'd be very obvious he'd be going in first but since it's the other dogs attacking him it's not his fault.

Maya scares allot of dogs off and has only had a handful of dogs go for her, she dosen't retaliate anymore just looks dumbfounded as why they don't want to be her friend :lol:


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> 14 months and 10 days to be exact


He is in the age range for this to happen then.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> He is in the age range for this to happen then.


First time it happened he was younger than 6 months..he was bitten by a boxer bitch


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

How many times has Sammy been bitten?

Have in your opinion the other dogs attacked him for no reason?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> No idea..he goes in tail wagging and making little whimpering sounds and the other dogs seem to just go for him.


This is what one of mine does, and he gets snapped at and warned all the time.

If a dog is being bitten on a regular basis, by various other dogs, then i think it has to be accepted that its the individual with the issue, not that they others are aggressive.

I know mine has body language issues, i accept that how he approaches and postures at other dogs makes them uneasy and more liable to be defensive.

FYI a wagging tail does not mean a dog is friendly.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> This is why i like malamutes, sibes etc and even my springer rarely matted just the ears on occasion but the toy poodle I had got mats almost daily and it drove me crazy  I couldn't ever own a poodle after that, it's too much grooming.


I know I have gone back a little bit into the thread but - my miniature poodles are very low maintenance coat wise - between clipping. I comb through ears and tail once or twice a week and sometimes do the legs too. I have yet to find a mat. My first standard poodle was really bad for matting till she got her adult coat and she was a big grooming job every day but my second one was not so bad. Far far less grooming than when I had shelties or even collies. Again, apart from the clipping of course.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> First time it happened he was younger than 6 months..he was bitten by a boxer bitch


From the article I posted:

_Adolescence is a particularly stressful time for young dogs, especially males, who are repeatedly harassed by older dogs, especially males. The ritualized harassment is both normal and necessary, allowing older dogs to put developing youngsters "in their place" before they are strong enough
to compete on the social scene. Harassment is triggered by rude adolescent behavior and by extremely elevated testosterone levels in five- to eighteen-month-old adolescents. Castrating your puppy will prevent most harassment from older dogs._

A bitch is quite at liberty to put a puppy in its place as well.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> How many times has Sammy been bitten?
> 
> Have in your opinion the other dogs attacked him for no reason?


Nope, imo it is his confident posture. Also the fact that he never shows a submissive look.


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## AlisonLyn (Sep 2, 2011)

Have to tell you (not that you won't already know) that Sammy is absolutely adorable


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## Roobster2010 (Jan 17, 2011)

I seen what was actually the double of one of Tolliskys Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, bl00dy beautiful.

I had never seen one in the fur before so was getting excited to ask the owner. Anyway it turns out to be a labradoodle, my goodness do these dogs come in different shapes & sizes. 

Av never seen a less than beautiful one either.


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## Roobster2010 (Jan 17, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> No idea..he goes in tail wagging.


I've no idea what this has to do with labradoodles, most likely nothing, but I must say, photos of Samson always make me smile.....................he is so handsome.


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