# Ear Cropping



## Ninjaseb123 (Jun 28, 2012)

Hey guys,
I am getting a new Doberman as my last one
passed away. I didnt get the vet to crop her ears when
I got her and the vet said she had a terrible infection at the time
of death. he said this could have been due to this.

When I get my new pup should I get its ears cropped?
Is it legal in England anymore because I have heard some 
countries have banned it for moral reasons.

Thanks for your feedback


----------



## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Ear cropping is illegal in the UK. No you shouldn't get the ears cropped wherever you are. 
There is no good reason for it and it looks horrid too.


----------



## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Its banned in England.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Ninjaseb123 said:


> Hey guys,
> I am getting a new Doberman as my last one
> passed away. I didnt get the vet to crop her ears when
> I got her and the vet said she had a terrible infection at the time
> ...


Its banned in the UK, along with the more recent tail docking for cosmetic reasons.

To be honest I dont think the ear infection had anything to do with cropping the ears, my family have had 3 dobermanns over the years uncropped and they never had ear problems and the current one is around 7 and two of the previous ones my father had lived to 13 plus.


----------



## Ninjaseb123 (Jun 28, 2012)

Thanks for the input guys,
Even if it was legel would it help prevent
against infections?


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Ear cropping has been banned in the Uk since 1899 :lol: the only recent thing is Docking which was banned except for working dogs (excluding scotland) in 2006.


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Ninjaseb123 said:


> Thanks for the input guys,
> Even if it was legel would it help prevent
> against infections?


no, it would probably be more likely to cause infection through the wound created by the cropping!

I can't see how it can prevent infections? Isn't the 'floppy' part to a dogs ear there to protect bacteria from getting into the ear? So surely taking that away will leave the dog more prone to infection, as foreign bodies will be able to enter the ear more easily.


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Ninjaseb123 said:


> Thanks for the input guys,
> Even if it was legel would it help prevent
> against infections?


Actually from what i've heard it's more likely to cause infections, as the breed is not naturally born with up ears where as malamutes and huskies are, they have fluff to protect their ears but dobermanns do not.

Best thing to do is just keep your dogs ears cleaned on a regular basis.


----------



## Ninjaseb123 (Jun 28, 2012)

Really? since 1899? 
The vet I saw was pretty Influnced that
it was legal in the UK at the time when my Dobermann
passed away, which was just 14 months ago.

Either way it looks nice natural and cropped.

But say I had a dog from a country/state where it is
legal but then I moved to the UK what would happen?

Might have a word with my vet as apparently he know very little
about dogs :s which is really worrying.


----------



## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

If the infection was that bad, that it contributed to her death, would you not have noticed it?

I think if you are taking a dog to the vets in regard of its ears, and infection would be a bigger priority than cropping.

As said, its illegal in the UK anyway.

Cropping the outer ear does nothing to prevent ear infections. If having longer ears makes ear infections more common (especially ones which contribute to the death of the dog) I would imagine there would be a lot of cropped eared spaniels, beagles, *insert floppy eared dog here*, etc.


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Ninjaseb123 said:


> Really? since 1899?
> The vet I saw was pretty Influnced that
> it was legal in the UK at the time when my Doberman
> passed away, which was just 14 months ago.
> ...


Yep, indeed.

I'm one who likes the look of both cropped and natural although could never crop myself.

Nothing, if it was legally done in a country where it was legal and you imported the dog, there's no laws against it. The only laws is having it done in the uk.

I know someone who imported a boxer from Russia in the netherland because it's illegal there and she badly wanted a cropped boxer.


----------



## Ninjaseb123 (Jun 28, 2012)

There were no visible signs in the ear canal and from what I could see but the vet was determined there was a nasty infection.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Ninjaseb123 said:


> Thanks for the input guys,
> Even if it was legel would it help prevent
> against infections?


No it won't help prevent against infections and it's barbaric - why would you want to do such a thing!


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I think I'd be looking for a new vet pronto tbh. I really don't see how cropping a dogs ears will prevent ear infections and if your vet said it was legal 14 months ago then I'd wonder what else he is god knows how many years behind on :scared:


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I think ear cropping is a disgusting thing to do to a dog... I do not understand how people would want to do something so barbaric to a living, breathing animal...


----------



## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Ninjaseb123 said:


> Thanks for the input guys,
> Even if it was legel would it help prevent
> against infections?


Never seen any proof of this. In fact, I know one lady with two cropped dobes who has horrendous problems with their ears. 
My natural eared dobe never has ear problems, but then I keep his ears clean, which I think anyone with a dropped ear breed should do. Common sense to me.

There is even a theory that cropped ears on a naturally dropped ear breed can actually increase the chances of infections. 
The theory is that dogs with naturally pricked ears tend to have hair and protection inside the ear to trap dirt and debris, hair that dropped ear breeds don't have to that extent. 
So when you crop, you open up the ears to all sorts of things which they do not have the natural protection to deal with, because their ears are not meant to be upright like that.

I despise the practise because it is completely unnecessary and done only to cater to human whims of appearance and 'breed standard'.

I've known of a couple of dobe pups who have actually died under the anaesthetic for the crop job, and many more who have had horrendous infections afterwards. I'll never forget reading about one person in the USA who was talking about how much her pup was whining and crying and pawing at her ears when she got a horrible infection in them. 
Of course, the pro crop people came along to tell her she 'wasn't in pain' and that she was just being a whiny puppy.
Strange, my dobe pup never yelped and pawed at his ears......
I just can't imagine looking at a beautiful little dobe pup and rather than embracing the joy of having a healthy, wonderful little pup, thinking 'right, better go put this pup through a painful cosmetic surgery'.

As someone who has lost what we thought were perfectly healthy animals to anaesthetic, I'd never in a million years put any animal of mine at risk for something that wasn't life saving/improving. Taking that risk for something purely cosmetic is just.......doesn't compute in my head.

Moreso than the practise of cropping even, I hate the attitude of those who are obsessed with it. 
I have a folder of screen shots of things said on dobe forums about cropping, and some of them make your jaw drop.
One of the worst I ever heard was from someone talking about why she is so strongly pro cropping, and it said: 'life is too short to live with ugly dogs'.

There is also a guy on youtube who seems to go around every vid of a natural dobe and leave an offensive comment, anything from calling the dog a hound and not a dobe, to calling people irresponsible for not cropping :mad2:

One thing that constantly confuses me is that dobe people often use the 'this is what the creator of the breed intended for the dobermann, therefore, we're being true to his design'. 
But the first original pictures of the first dobes show a dog with a short crop, nothing like the longer 'show' or 'pet' crops most pet dobes have now. In fact, a lot of dobe people now dislike the short crops. So how are they staying true to the designer of the breed's wishes when they're cropping in a different way to what he clearly intended?
He also never intended a red dobe, but no-one seems to take issue with red dobes. So the argument of 'staying true to what the breed creator wanted' is just bull poo.

But yeah, its illegal here, thank god. If you wanted a cropped dog, you'd have to import one from a country that does allow cropping. Which seems a hell of a lot of money to spend just for one aesthetic feature on a dog. I'd rather spend such money on the pup himself, in toys and lovely things


----------



## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

There is no reason to crop the ears other than for aesthetic reasons; they do not prevent against infections and they do not help the dog hear better or any other weird and wonderful reasons.


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

If you import ensure you have all the paperwork, i know a few ovcharka breeders which never have the RPSCA away from their door as people assume they have been cropped by the importer 

I presonally like the look of a cropped and/or docked dog but its a cosmetic procedure only, unless the dog is going to be fighting which would inflict horrible injuries anyway


----------



## DavieB (Jun 16, 2012)

I do like the look of docked tails, but I don't think I would have it done. It is a thought for my next pup though as I will be getting mine from the same breeder in Ireland next time.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I think it's also worth noting that in many circles having a "cropped" dog will make people shun you in the UK. We have a rescue who has a docked tail and it's not uncommon to have comments out when walking of "docking's cruel" in Germany. I think a lot of people when seeing a docked dog pity the dog and also pity the owner for feeling they need to dock.


----------



## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Tigerneko said:


> no, it would probably be more likely to cause infection through the wound created by the cropping!
> 
> I can't see how it can prevent infections? Isn't the 'floppy' part to a dogs ear there to protect bacteria from getting into the ear? So surely taking that away will leave the dog more prone to infection, as foreign bodies will be able to enter the ear more easily.


My GSD suffered from recurrent ear infections as he got older He had big sticky up ears and used to like to swim and I think that if he had flop down ears it may have protected him from this. Water retrieving dogs like my Golden Retriever and Flatcoat have been bred with floppy ears to keep their ears free from water and to date they have been fine with no ear infections. I think (?) ear infections are far more common in dogs with upright ears. I notice when I look at GSD rescue sites many of them say that the dogs are being treated for ear problems. I think this argument for ear cropping is just an excuse to justify the procedure.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Goblin said:


> I think it's also worth noting that in many circles having a "cropped" dog will make people shun you in the UK. We have a rescue who has a docked tail and it's not uncommon to have comments out when walking of "docking's cruel" in Germany. I think a lot of people when seeing a docked dog pity the dog and also pity the owner for feeling they need to dock.


I must admit I hated it when I was in the US. Not only is it a barbaric and painful drawn out procedure (much more than docking), but it looks horrible and unnatural.


----------



## DavieB (Jun 16, 2012)

Cropping really does seem to me to be a horrendous procedure.


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> I must admit I hated it when I was in the US. Not only is it a barbaric and painful drawn out procedure (much more than docking), but it looks horrible and unnatural.


When I visited the states recently we had two come in to my husband's work and I sat there fussing over the ears as I was facinated by 'em. One had a awful crop-looked like someone had done it themselves and another was very clean.

but then I do like the look, i'd never do it myself but I would love to adopt one.



DavieB said:


> Cropping really does seem to me to be a horrendous procedure.


It can be if not done right or cared for correctly, it can very easily go wrong.

It's like any operation and can be very risky.


----------



## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

I dont really understand the logic in buying a dog and then chopping bits off it.. They are what they are right?

Unless its a medical reason (tail damage/ ear tumours) what sound and logical reason is there for this mutilation?

I think any owner who wants the ear of their dogs cropped should be allowed to have it done providing they themselves first undergo the procedure in exactly the same way as the dog does.. 

There is a limit to what fashion can demand and painful body mutilation of unconsenting beings crosses the line for me.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Ninjaseb123 said:


> Really? since 1899?
> The vet I saw was pretty Influnced that
> it was legal in the UK at the time when my Dobermann
> passed away, which was just 14 months ago.
> ...


You can't have natural AND cropped, one or the other.



Ninjaseb123 said:


> There were no visible signs in the ear canal and from what I could see but the vet was determined there was a nasty infection.


If the infection was that bad the dog must have been in a lot of pain. Are you saying nobody noticed?



Dober said:


> There is no reason to crop the ears other than for aesthetic reasons; they do not prevent against infections and they do not help the dog hear better or any other weird and wonderful reasons.


And your dogs have such beautiful ears, too. Who in their right mind would want to tamper with them?


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I think any owner who wants the ear of their dogs cropped should be allowed to have it done providing they themselves first undergo the procedure in exactly the same way as the dog does..


While I have a lot of sympathy with this, the reality is that many humans do mutilate their bodies by using cosmetic surgery to achieve a certain look. While I think it looks awful, it is their choice. A dog has no choice in the matter and such abuse is simply pandering the the desires of the owner.

It's sick


----------



## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

I've known a fair few long term dobe breeders/show people who have stated they would 'quit the breed' if cropping were banned. 
This just baffles me. 
Its as if they don't care about the personality of the breed, working to breed better healthier dogs, the function of the breed, they only care about the looks, and one tiny change to what they're used to would make them just drop it completely. 
Its like me saying I'd never keep rats again if I could only have PEWs, because I don't like the look of them as much as other colours! They'd still be rats, with every single trait that makes me love the animal, and it shouldn't make a blind bit of difference if one aesthetic issue was changed. I wouldn't care; I love the animal for what they are, not what they look like.

I can't understand someone shunning a breed they've been involved in for years, presumably working passionately with, for one visual feature. It makes me question how much they ever really cared about the animal in the first place.


----------



## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Shadowrat said:


> I've known a fair few long term dobe breeders/show people who have stated they would 'quit the breed' if cropping were banned.
> This just baffles me.
> Its as if they don't care about the personality of the breed, working to breed better healthier dogs, the function of the breed, they only care about the looks, and one tiny change to what they're used to would make them just drop it completely.
> Its like me saying I'd never keep rats again if I could only have PEWs, because I don't like the look of them as much as other colours! They'd still be rats, with every single trait that makes me love the animal, and it shouldn't make a blind bit of difference if one aesthetic issue was changed. I wouldn't care; I love the animal for what they are, not what they look like.
> ...


I agree with this too, it seems crazy to me that someone woudl leave a breed because of something so small like ears and/or tails. I knew a few breeders who left the breed when docking became illegal, but its quality of owners not quantity that matters anyway, right? 

I dont understand the traditionalists who say Mr. Dobermann wanted the dog cropped so they want their dog cropped. Apart from being black and tan, todays Dobermann barley resembles what Mr. Dobermann wanted! He wanted a small, terrier type dog with a sharp, vicious temperament. I doubt they'd like anything else about Mr.Dobermanns dog!


















As I've said before, theres so much more to dobes than ears and tails.


----------



## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

To the OP, if you decide you definitely want cropped ears and you import from the USA, you should go to a breeder who crops their puppies before they are given to you, and get a breeder who will support you through the posting process so they don't get infected, sore, scar or flop instead of standing. Be aware that you could be posting up until 1 year old or longer for a longer crop.

Make sure the puppy you are choosing has health tested parents, minimum hips and elbows through OFA, CERF, vWD, thyroid and liver bloodwork and DCM DNA and **IMPORTANT** recent heart echo holter test results.

Heres some helpful info for you Buying A Doberman Pinscher


----------



## Guest (Jun 29, 2012)

I live in a country where dogs are still regularly cropped, and Ive yet to talk to a vet who saw a correlation between cropped ears and fewer ear infections. I have two natural eared danes, flop eared muttdog and another muttdog with one flop ear and one stand up ear and none of mine have ever suffered an ear infection despite the fact that I pretty much never clean their ears and they all swim and get in to all sorts of gunk.
Personally I think there is a bigger correlation between diet and ear infections. Diets heavy in corn tend to lead to itchy feet, gunky eyes and ears.


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Dober said:


> As I've said before, theres so much more to dobes than ears and tails.


They remind me of Beaucerons than today's dobermans.


----------



## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

I personally dont agree with it look at this poor girl ,someone chopped her ears as didnt like way she looked, was in battersea couldnt be rehomed featured her on daybreak she is now living by seaside in Scotland  i met this girl last year now freinds on FB she is gorgeous gentle girl 



Happy future in Scotland for Batterseas Stafford


----------



## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

They should be left alone...

Manchester Terriers ears used to be cropped...Eughhh can't think of anything as horrid as chopping off my lads lugs.... I have never met another dog like Chester who uses his ears as much as he does in different situations

The banning of cropping the dogs ears is believed to be one of the main reasons why Manchesters have become as rare as they have today


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Joshua had particularly droopy eyes for a newfoundland, though they did not cause him any problems to speak of. My vet suggested that he operate to make them less droopy. I was furious. I told him he didn't need cosmetic surgery and I feel exactly the same about cropping ears. What next? A boob job?


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

dorrit said:


> I dont really understand the logic in buying a dog and then chopping bits off it.. They are what they are right?
> 
> Unless its a medical reason (tail damage/ ear tumours) what sound and logical reason is there for this mutilation?
> 
> ...


ahh but your arguement can be argued about dogs full stop.
Why manipulate a breed into any standard beacuse humans want it? Why tattoo/chip? Why spay/neuter, breed for colour/markings? There are still breeders who PTS pups who dont fit the standard.
We could argue it for kids too. Why circumcise, why pierce their ears. . .

As long as its dont under aneasthetic i have no issue. Under the ban i have heard of people docking themselves with a pair of sissors *shudder* and seen the horrid results. I would much rather it was legal and done right :thumbup:


----------



## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I have to disagree. I hardly think you can compare cropping, which serves no purpose other than for cosmetic reasons, to micro chipping, selective breeding and neutering.

-Microchipping it one sharp nip then its done and helps reunite lots of lost pets with their owners when lost as well stopping people from fraudulent insurance and health scoring.

-Selective breeding, when properly done, improves the quality of the dog in terms of health, conformation, working ability and/or temperament.

-Neutering is helping to slow the population crisis we have in our (and other) countries shelters and has numerous health and behavioural benefits.

-Just because some breeders cull non-correct puppies (which I think you would be very hard to find breeders doing this now a day, unless you're watching Pedigree dogs exposed that is) doesn't make it right. Non-standard puppies should be put into pet homes and not bred.

By the same logic as legalising it so it can be controlled more would be along the same logic of legalising handguns and cannabis so they can be regulated. There are _very_ few cases of illegal cropping and docking of dogs in the UK, I'd be willing to bet if you could find statistics of dogs who have died from cropping surgury or infection from ear cropping in the US and compared it to illegal cropping suffering over here, you'd have your answer.

The vetinary assosiations in the USA advice against cropping and even in legal countries many vets will not crop.

Welfare Implications of Dogs: Ear Cropping Backgrounder


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Devils Advocate here 



Dober said:


> I have to disagree. I hardly think you can compare cropping, which serves no purpose other than for cosmetic reasons, to micro chipping, selective breeding and neutering.
> 
> -Microchipping it one sharp nip then its done and helps reunite lots of lost pets with their owners when lost as well stopping people from fraudulent insurance and health scoring.
> 
> ...


x


----------



## AnimaLover89 (Jun 26, 2012)

Ninjaseb123 said:


> Hey guys,
> I am getting a new Doberman as my last one
> passed away. I didnt get the vet to crop her ears when
> I got her and the vet said she had a terrible infection at the time
> ...


no offence intended but the fact ur previous dog died as a result of u cropping its ears makes me incredibly angry! Especialy the fact that u didnt go to a vet to have the procedure done! Atleast a vet would have put the dog under anaesthesia and given antibiotics and pain killers! People such as urself who have dogs mutiliated for 'fashion' make me sick. Your dog must have suffered intense pain, how would u like it if we chopped off part of your ears and let it get infected to the point where it killed you? Ear cropping is a disgusting procedure and is only done to make the dog look 'cool' and 'hard' i dont care wat ppl say thats fact in my eyes. Yes my dogs have cropped tails but that wasnt my choice the breeder had them done before i bought them as pups had i of had a choice in the matter they would have there tails right now not only do they look better but the moral reasons also. And yes both tail docking (unlesz u can prove dogs r worked or have injury to tail) and ear cropping are illegal in england and i completly agree with that law. Id advise u not to get another pup as u r to iresponsible and selfish to own an animal. If u decide to get another dog i beg u do not have eara cropped its cruel and inhumane


----------



## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

LoveCockersx said:


> no offence intended but the fact ur previous dog died as a result of u cropping its ears makes me incredibly angry! Especialy the fact that u didnt go to a vet to have the procedure done! Atleast a vet would have put the dog under anaesthesia and given antibiotics and pain killers! People such as urself who have dogs mutiliated for 'fashion' make me sick. Your dog must have suffered intense pain, how would u like it if we chopped off part of your ears and let it get infected to the point where it killed you? Ear cropping is a disgusting procedure and is only done to make the dog look 'cool' and 'hard' i dont care wat ppl say thats fact in my eyes. Yes my dogs have cropped tails but that wasnt my choice the breeder had them done before i bought them as pups had i of had a choice in the matter they would have there tails right now not only do they look better but the moral reasons also. And yes both tail docking (unlesz u can prove dogs r worked or have injury to tail) and ear cropping are illegal in england and i completly agree with that law. Id advise u not to get another pup as u r to iresponsible and selfish to own an animal. If u decide to get another dog i beg u do not have eara cropped its cruel and inhumane


I think you may have misunderstood the original post. I took it to mean that the dog's ears were not cropped at any time but that a vet had said that the dog had an ear infection and it might be connected with the ears not being cropped (not that I've ever heard of uncropped ears being more prone to infection - more the opposite) 
That's how I understood the post


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

LoveCockersx said:


> no offence intended but the fact ur previous dog died as a result of u cropping its ears makes me incredibly angry! Especialy the fact that u didnt go to a vet to have the procedure done! Atleast a vet would have put the dog under anaesthesia and given antibiotics and pain killers! People such as urself who have dogs mutiliated for 'fashion' make me sick. Your dog must have suffered intense pain, how would u like it if we chopped off part of your ears and let it get infected to the point where it killed you? Ear cropping is a disgusting procedure and is only done to make the dog look 'cool' and 'hard' i dont care wat ppl say thats fact in my eyes. Yes my dogs have cropped tails but that wasnt my choice the breeder had them done before i bought them as pups had i of had a choice in the matter they would have there tails right now not only do they look better but the moral reasons also. And yes both tail docking (unlesz u can prove dogs r worked or have injury to tail) and ear cropping are illegal in england and i completly agree with that law. Id advise u not to get another pup as u r to iresponsible and selfish to own an animal. If u decide to get another dog i beg u do not have eara cropped its cruel and inhumane


After god knows how long to try and decipher what on earth you was saying, I think you need to read the OP's post again before you start tossing out insults.

She had NOT had her last dogs ears cropped and didn't know it had been illegal since the 1800's.

She wanted to know if having them cropped would help with ear infections due to her her last uncropped on getting them.


----------



## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

The state law in my state is that a licensed vet must perform the ear cropping and you must have proof of a vet doing the procedure throughout the life of the animal. I've heard of breeders cropping dogs themselves in some places.

Dogs are routinely given pain meds for ear cropping. If anything goes wrong the procedure, it could be extremely painful. I personally wouldn't have any of my dogs cropped. It isn't worth the risks to the dog and I can't imagine it being comfortable.


----------



## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

wow, Dober, I've never seen a doberman that wasn't docked and cropped. Do you have any more pictures? They look so different.


----------



## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

DogLover1981 said:


> wow, Dober, I've never seen a doberman that wasn't docked and cropped. Do you have any more pictures?


Hmm, an excuse to show off my beautiful natural boy....? Dont mind if I do! 










































































And I'll throw in a puppy video too at 12 weeks


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

I don't get it - I really, honestly and truly don't get it. If you like the look of pricked ears, if you want a dog with pricked ears, then ffs *why not own a breed that has naturally pricked ears*? Why mutilate a dog that is not intended to have pricked ears? Why chop bits off a dog just so that you can make it look the way you would like it to look? :mad2: :scared: :mad2:

I despair of human beings sometimes, I really do.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

An American Briard with clipped ears (why??)










Dillon a little on the scruffy side, with normal ears


----------



## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Starlite said:


> ahh but your arguement can be argued about dogs full stop.
> Why manipulate a breed into any standard beacuse humans want it? Why tattoo/chip? Why spay/neuter, breed for colour/markings? There are still breeders who PTS pups who dont fit the standard.
> We could argue it for kids too. Why circumcise, why pierce their ears. . .
> 
> As long as its dont under aneasthetic i have no issue. Under the ban i have heard of people docking themselves with a pair of sissors *shudder* and seen the horrid results. I would much rather it was legal and done right :thumbup:


Tatto and chip spey/ neuter is not the same as cutting perfectly healthy bits off of an animal because you dont like the way it looks.

As for your remark about colour breeding I agree health/temprement should be the number 1 and always the number 1 issue when breeding dogs ..

As regards those who undertake to do it themselves well tighter stricter laws need to be applied to them..These vile abusers should not be allowed to force a reverse just so that they can get away with their mutilations..

I dont think children of either sex should be circumcised and yet many people think if thats done early and under aneasthetic its ok..

Its not, the mutilation of any being for a pure fashion or lifestyle belief should be stopped...

The above mentioned petty arguments are the kind that crop/ dock supporters will use to try to win people over into allowing them to continue mutilating their pets..

Well it doesnt wash


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> An American Briard with clipped ears (why??)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And which one looks like a proper dog? Seems like Dillon has had a great time!


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

dorrit said:


> Tatto and chip spey/ neuter is not the same as cutting perfectly healthy bits off of an animal because you dont like the way it looks.
> 
> As for your remark about colour breeding I agree health/temprement should be the number 1 and always the number 1 issue when breeding dogs ..
> 
> ...


lol im not trying to win anything, simply showing there are 2 sides to a coin 

if cropping/docking should be stopped altogether then why shouldnt the Government step up and ban bulldogs, pugs, CKCs etc as their breeding can inflict horrendous injuries and early death, where do we draw the line?

Im looking for a genuine adult conversation here, not decending into name calling


----------



## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

There are plenty of things which the goverment should do a lot more than they do, I dont see how the fact that other practises are legal detracts from the opinion that croping should be illegal? Just because something is not illegal, doesnt mean it is right to do it. 

Its not illegal to breed a female dog 20 times, puppy mills arnt illegal, breeding unhealth tested dogs is not illegal, breeding a 7 month old puppy isnt illegal. I think most of the forum will agree they are morally wrong however and I'd bet a fair few of our members would like to see a ban on some or all of those things.


----------



## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> An American Briard with clipped ears (why??)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ive never noticed Briards had cropped ears in the states! They look SO much nicer uncropped. What reason do they give for having cropped ears?

I find it odd how there seems to be no pattern for cropped breeds; (heres where my breed knowledge comes into question LOL feel free to correct me) great danes were a herding breed and they're cropped with natural tail, rotties were a herding breed and theyre not cropped but docked, beaucerons were a guard dog and cropped with natural tail, dobes were guard dogs and are cropped an docked. Pits were a fighting breed and theyre docked and cropped, dogue de bordeaux were a fighting breed and they're not cropped or docked. Boxers were a hunting breed and they're cropped...


----------



## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm not a fan of ear cropping, especially in dobes and danes, their ears are too large IMO and well they just can look slightly comical  Some of them look like you could stick them on the roof and get free Sky +!

It's not as simple a procedure as tail docking, it is done when the pup is older, it is a significant surgical procedure requiring weeks of aftercare. Pointless IMHO.
Most of the arguments brought by the pro-cropping folk are myths, the risk of infections being one. As said previously, most of the breeds prone to recurring ear infections are not cropped anyway.

Whilst, I do think some dog look smart with docked tails (rotties, I admit my secret shame) I'd prefer to be smacked in the legs by a happy, waggy dog and avoid a helpless pup endure a painful surgical procedure.

Plus, I think artificially modifying the body of an animal so dependant on body language as a means of communication is asking for trouble, let alone cruel. 
I know a standard pinscher with cropped ears and docked tail, I find her quite difficult to read, as do other dogs, her ears seemed to give her a naturally tense expression and she has no tail at all.

I'd like to think that banning of docking and cropping is/was the beginning of people respecting the dogs they own and show, and really caring for their welfare, rather than the prizes they win or appreciation they receive. 
It's a step in the right direction at least IMHO.


----------



## Dizzy Grace (May 2, 2012)

LoveCockersx said:


> no offence intended but the fact ur previous dog died as a result of u cropping its ears makes me incredibly angry! Especialy the fact that u didnt go to a vet to have the procedure done!...


When I first read the opening post I read it this way and even after rereading I think it's not actually clear which way it was intended. I'm glad I'm not the only one who 'misunderstood'. Other than that, I really have nothing to add.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm anti-cropping - as with docking I'm against mutilation for cosmetic reasons. I find cropping worse for a number of reasons - namely the risks being higher and there being no benefits.

I appreciate the comparison to neutering as this is indeed done mostly for owner benefit. 
However, neutering does have some health benefits for the dogs, is the only 100% way of preventing litters, and can help prevent or reduce certain behaviour problems - something I feel shouldn't be overlooked considering how many dogs are dumped or pts for behavioural reasons.

I think comparing cropping to microchipping is frankly ridiculous. 
Chipping is a very simple procedure over in moments, causes minimal seconds or minutes of pain, and is very low risk. 
Cropping involves anaesthetic, amputation, etc. I strongly suspect there is a degree of pain afterwards despite pain relief being given. Then there are the weeks of discomfort while the ears are taped to make them stand. Plus the risks involved with anaesthetic, infection etc....
And whilst ear cropping has zero benefit, microchipping enables lost dogs to be reunited with their owners - beneficial to both parties.

As for breeding - I have no issue with breeding for any "look" so long as health and welfare are not adversely affected. I'm against culling pups for cosmetic reasons.

Regarding legislation - just because a few morons may break the law and DIY crop doesn't mean we should legalise it. Far from it. As the law stands, finding illegal croppers should be fairly straightforward, as owners of cropped dogs could be asked to prove the dog was imported. If we legalised it, not only would hundreds more dogs be forced to undergo this procedure (properly) but illegal cropping would harder to police.

I don't think it can be compared to legalising handguns and cannabis. It is possible to own a handgun or smoke weed without ever causing harm to another. It is not possible to anaesthetise a pup, hack bits off bits, pump it full of drugs, and tape the ears to lollipop sticks for several months without causing suffering!


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Can I just say that I had Ferdie neutered for HIS benefit, not for mine. I had never had a dog done before, I did not want to have him done at all, I waited and waited in the vain hope that he would grow out of his randiness and all would be fine.

He could not go off lead because of the danger to other dogs of his trying to hump every single one, no matter what size, he could not just be friendly to people without trying to hump them. I had to keep his lead on if anyone came to the house just to keep him away from them.

I realised eventually just how miserable HIS life was because of it, so I gave in. Neutering is not always for the benefit of the owner.

I don't see how ear cropping can ever be for the benefit of the dog.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Dober said:


> Ive never noticed Briards had cropped ears in the states! They look SO much nicer uncropped. What reason do they give for having cropped ears?
> 
> I find it odd how there seems to be no pattern for cropped breeds; (heres where my breed knowledge comes into question LOL feel free to correct me) great danes were a herding breed and they're cropped with natural tail, rotties were a herding breed and theyre not cropped but docked, beaucerons were a guard dog and cropped with natural tail, dobes were guard dogs and are cropped an docked. Pits were a fighting breed and theyre docked and cropped, dogue de bordeaux were a fighting breed and they're not cropped or docked. Boxers were a hunting breed and they're cropped...


I'm not sure, but I think it goes back to their flock guarding days in France when they were left on the high hills and mountains, to protect the sheep from wolfs and bears, if they got into fight with one or the other their ears would not get ripped so easily, the same reason as their heavy fringes to protect their eyes.

It was banned in France a few years ago.


----------



## Loveabull (Oct 6, 2013)

Just to clear something up here, all these user's saying there is no benefit's to cropping ear's and coming up with random nonsense, ear cropping help's to prevent infection's, many say there's no proof, but to that I say prove there's no beneift's truth is no1 know's if it can PREVENT a problem.

Ear cropping help's keep ear's more healthy and easier to maintain, aside from the perfectly safe and clean method's of cropping and tapping no "wound infection's" will ever cause a problem. However dog's with droopy ear's like Lab's, Dobbie's etc, are better off with ear's being cropped in some way or another, the reason for this is, Yeast infection's need warm moist place's to be able to grow. When ear's lay flat against the dog's head/face they prevent circulation of cool air which obviously removes the heat issue and in most cases the damp/humid air which the ear's prevent's from escaping. Imagine never being able to open the windows in your home during summer and having to stay inside. no option to cool down you'd sweat more smell more and more likely to gain infection.

I'm not sayin ear cropping is for everyone, but for the user's that have said it's bad painful and no health benefit's read up on the fact's just because you dont agree with something it doesn't mean you should go pushing your views onto other's as if it's wrong or bad to be different. Working dog's eg, herding animal's police dog's, armed force dog's etc often have cropped ear's in the uk. And there are vet's who will still carry out the procedure fully legally but ONLY if there's a genuine reason like if your dog will do security work etc but not for a family pet. 

I myself am having my bulldog's ear's cropped due tomany many treatment's for yeast infection's which is costing alot of money (and having 16 dog's 12of which are rescue/rehabilitation dog's) it can become expensive even with a reasonable background like my own. I lost a dog last year among the family due to the same problem, and I was also told that cropping would have most likely prolonged life and releived the irritation he suffered.

To sum thing's up if you want your dog cropped either import from Russia or somewhere similar already cropped/docked either or, but to have it done in this country you would need to prove your dog was going to be better off in a working role minus the drooping ear's, which can get caught on barb wire or thorns etc if it live's the lifestyle where contact of sharp's is a must, as it's much much more painful and look's bad if it tear's from a working role, and you could possibly be prevented in future for doing the working role if problem's could have been prevented by being sensible. Done proffesionally the dog feel's no pain during the surgery as it's put under anesthetic (and obviously alot less problematic than spay/neuter surgery) only the support's may irritate on the freshly broken skin. But by following your vets advice and takin real good care nothing at all bad can come of it.


----------



## Guest (Oct 6, 2013)

Loveabull said:


> Just to clear something up here, all these user's saying there is no benefit's to cropping ear's and coming up with random nonsense, ear cropping help's to prevent infection's, many say there's no proof, but to that I say prove there's no beneift's truth is no1 know's if it can PREVENT a problem.
> 
> Ear cropping help's keep ear's more healthy and easier to maintain, aside from the perfectly safe and clean method's of cropping and tapping no "wound infection's" will ever cause a problem. However dog's with droopy ear's like Lab's, Dobbie's etc, are better off with ear's being cropped in some way or another, the reason for this is, Yeast infection's need warm moist place's to be able to grow. When ear's lay flat against the dog's head/face they prevent circulation of cool air which obviously removes the heat issue and in most cases the damp/humid air which the ear's prevent's from escaping. Imagine never being able to open the windows in your home during summer and having to stay inside. no option to cool down you'd sweat more smell more and more likely to gain infection.
> 
> ...


Cropping is not without risk. General anesthesia alone is a risk - more so in some breeds than others, but in no breed is general anesthesia risk free.

And no, ear cropping doesn't prevent problems. Just as many prick ear breeds get infections as flop ear breeds. All of my dogs are flop eared, no ear issues, my neighbor has a prick eared dog who has chronic ear infections. Not sure how cropping would help that dog?  Most of the time yeasty ears is due to poor diet anyway.

I'm not in the UK but I've never heard of police dogs needing to get their ears cropped??


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Funny enough i'm dog sitting a husky right now who has an ear infection both her ears are up. 

I've had 3 springers, only 1 had an ear infection due to poor care on my behalf and also from a **** diet. 

A labrador with cropped ears?! i'd rather vomit, they reason for the down ears is to protect them and help keep out things when they run through heavy brush. 

I'm pleased it's illegal in the UK and hope one day US will follow suit.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Loveabull said:


> Just to clear something up here, all these user's saying there is no benefit's to cropping ear's and coming up with random nonsense, ear cropping help's to prevent infection's, many say there's no proof, but to that I say prove there's no beneift's truth is no1 know's if it can PREVENT a problem.
> 
> Ear cropping help's keep ear's more healthy and easier to maintain, aside from the perfectly safe and clean method's of cropping and tapping no "wound infection's" will ever cause a problem. However dog's with droopy ear's like Lab's, Dobbie's etc, are better off with ear's being cropped in some way or another, the reason for this is, Yeast infection's need warm moist place's to be able to grow. When ear's lay flat against the dog's head/face they prevent circulation of cool air which obviously removes the heat issue and in most cases the damp/humid air which the ear's prevent's from escaping. Imagine never being able to open the windows in your home during summer and having to stay inside. no option to cool down you'd sweat more smell more and more likely to gain infection.
> 
> ...


I can't say I know enough about the subject to argue but I would wonder:

1. If it is so easy, why have the UK government spent time and resources in banning it?

2. Why is it only certain breeds that get their ears or tails cropped?

You don't see newfies with cropped ears, do you? They could just as easily get caught in reeds while rescuing someone from a river. My own newfie had his tail half destroyed by burrs when he got trapped in the river - only the fur thank God so it will grow back. What about golden retrievers and Labradors and springer spaniels? Don't they run through bushes and sharp thistles to retriever game? Never seen a springer with his ears chopped.

I believe it is purely for aesthetic reasons which is just sheer human selfishness. The rotties we are now seeing with tails are beautiful and look far less threatening to the uninformed who belief they are dangerous.



ouesi said:


> Cropping is not without risk. General anesthesia alone is a risk - more so in some breeds than others, but in no breed is general anesthesia risk free.
> 
> And no, ear cropping doesn't prevent problems. Just as many prick ear breeds get infections as flop ear breeds. All of my dogs are flop eared, no ear issues, my neighbor has a prick eared dog who has chronic ear infections. Not sure how cropping would help that dog?  Most of the time yeasty ears is due to poor diet anyway.
> 
> I'm not in the UK but I've never heard of police dogs needing to get their ears cropped??


Well said. A GSD with his ears cropped? You're having a laugh, ain't ya?

Just one more thing OP: Why have to dug up an 18 month old thread in order to argue a point? Why not start your own?


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Loveabull said:


> Working dog's eg, herding animal's police dog's, armed force dog's etc often have cropped ear's in the uk. And there are vet's who will still carry out the procedure fully legally but ONLY if there's a genuine reason like if your dog will do security work etc but not for a family pet.


I have never seen any working (shoots), police or armed forces' dogs with their ears cropped; as far as I am aware the procedure is illegal. There are exemptions for tail docking, but not ear cropping. I have seen plenty of floppy eared spaniels and labradors working without any problems at all being caused by their ears.


----------



## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

I am speechless here why would anyone want to mutilate a dogs ears.
Because you think it looks better?
I for one thank god its banned in the UK.
Would you like someone to say hey there your ears are rather large I think you should get them cropped?
Its cruel and its barbaric and it is not something I would ever agree with sorry but that's the way I feel :mad2::mad2:


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

shirleystarr said:


> I am speechless here why would anyone want to mutilate a dogs ears.
> Because you think it looks better?
> I for one thank god its banned in the UK.
> Would you like someone to say hey there your ears are rather large I think you should get them cropped?
> Its cruel and its barbaric and it is not something I would ever agree with sorry but that's the way I feel :mad2::mad2:


Could not agree more, it is cruel and does the dog no good at all


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Loveabull said:


> Just to clear something up here, all these user's saying there is no benefit's to cropping ear's and coming up with random nonsense, ear cropping help's to prevent infection's, many say there's no proof, but to that I say prove there's no beneift's truth is no1 know's if it can PREVENT a problem.
> 
> Ear cropping help's keep ear's more healthy and easier to maintain, aside from the perfectly safe and clean method's of cropping and tapping no "wound infection's" will ever cause a problem. However dog's with droopy ear's like Lab's, Dobbie's etc, are better off with ear's being cropped in some way or another, the reason for this is, Yeast infection's need warm moist place's to be able to grow. When ear's lay flat against the dog's head/face they prevent circulation of cool air which obviously removes the heat issue and in most cases the damp/humid air which the ear's prevent's from escaping. Imagine never being able to open the windows in your home during summer and having to stay inside. no option to cool down you'd sweat more smell more and more likely to gain infection.
> 
> ...


Loveabull - what a load of bull.

No working dog - be it sheep dog, police dog, army dog, gun dog, whatever - in this country will have had its ears cropped.

Ear cropping is illegal in the UK (and many other European countries). It is also illegal to send a dog to one of the countries who still practice this barbaric procedure for it to be done. You can import a dog that has already been cropped, but you cannot export a dog to be cropped and then import it back into this country.

Cropping does not prevent ear infection - breeds with naturally pricked ears get ear infections. And as for the ridiculous argument that you might as well crop to prevent ears being torn - are you also going to chop off his legs in case he breaks a leg?

With your total lack of actual knoweldge about the subject in this country I'm unsure whether or not you actually live in the UK, but if you do the only way you could get your poor dog's ears cropped would be by an illegal back-street procedure.


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Loveabull said:


> Just to clear something up here, all these user's saying there is no benefit's to cropping ear's and coming up with random nonsense, ear cropping help's to prevent infection's, many say there's no proof, but to that I say prove there's no beneift's truth is no1 know's if it can PREVENT a problem.
> 
> Ear cropping help's keep ear's more healthy and easier to maintain, aside from the perfectly safe and clean method's of cropping and tapping no "wound infection's" will ever cause a problem. However dog's with droopy ear's like Lab's, Dobbie's etc, are better off with ear's being cropped in some way or another, the reason for this is, Yeast infection's need warm moist place's to be able to grow. When ear's lay flat against the dog's head/face they prevent circulation of cool air which obviously removes the heat issue and in most cases the damp/humid air which the ear's prevent's from escaping. Imagine never being able to open the windows in your home during summer and having to stay inside. no option to cool down you'd sweat more smell more and more likely to gain infection.
> 
> ...


Absolute rubbish. Ear cropping is illegal in the UK and the many thousands of working dogs here are not ear cropped and have not been imported. They work with their ears in their natural form. Trying to make a case for ear cropping to prevent injury is a non-starter here, although surgical amputation of a damaged ear flap might be considered if the injury were severe enough; the other ear would not be cropped to 'match'; in the same way as the remaining leg would not be amputated to match the 'pair' ,if amputated after injury.

By the way, OP, your habit of using apostrophes in plurals makes your posts quite hard to make sense of. It should be tears not tear's, treatments not treatment's, benefits not benefit's etc.


----------



## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Mavis has upright ears, has had loads of ear infections.
Chester has floppy ears, has had no ear infections.


----------



## Guest (Oct 6, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> Well said. A GSD with his ears cropped? You're having a laugh, ain't ya?


Yes and no. Some people really are that misinformed and think that GSDs and Malinois have prick ears because they've been cropped. I kid you not. 
Just as some people think great danes and dobes here in the US have naturally prick ears. Because I often get questions about mine (who have floppy ears) that lead to these conversations.

Joe Public: Why don't their ears stand up?
Me: Because they were never cropped.
JP:  
Me: Great danes have naturally floppy ears, to get them to stand you have cut off part of the ear and tape what's left for months to get that look.
JP: Oh so is that how german shepherds get those ears too?
Me: No, GSDs are born with prick ears.
JP: But you just said your dogs ears flop because you didn't crop them. So if a dog ears stand it's because it was cropped.
Me: No, some breeds have naturally floppy ears and some breeds have naturally prick ears.
JP: And some dogs are cropped.
Me: Right.
JP: So those police dogs are cropped?
Me: Depends on what you mean by "police dog". Dobermans are cropped, yes, but shepherds and malinois are not.
JP: But you just said it depends on the breed. I thought police dogs were all the same breed.
Me: :crazy::blink:ut:

So, as you can see, there is some misinformation about


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Loveabull said:


> Just to clear something up here, all these user's saying there is no benefit's to cropping ear's and coming up with random nonsense, ear cropping help's to prevent infection's, many say there's no proof, but to that I say prove there's no beneift's truth is no1 know's if it can PREVENT a problem.
> 
> Ear cropping help's keep ear's more healthy and easier to maintain, aside from the perfectly safe and clean method's of cropping and tapping no "wound infection's" will ever cause a problem. However dog's with droopy ear's like Lab's, Dobbie's etc, are better off with ear's being cropped in some way or another, the reason for this is, Yeast infection's need warm moist place's to be able to grow. When ear's lay flat against the dog's head/face they prevent circulation of cool air which obviously removes the heat issue and in most cases the damp/humid air which the ear's prevent's from escaping. Imagine never being able to open the windows in your home during summer and having to stay inside. no option to cool down you'd sweat more smell more and more likely to gain infection.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I think this post is full of old nonsense & full of flimsy excuses as to why cruel people choose to mutilate their dogs.


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Loveabull said:


> Just to clear something up here


Perhaps you could also clear up what your other username on here is.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Ear cropping isn't just a matter of trimming the ear to shape - the ears then have to be 'rolled' around supports and held in position with plasters/bandaged, until the cartilage has strengthened enough to stay up alone. If you don't do that you will end up with pointy floppy ears!

It isn't an easy job - dressing need to be changed daily to prevent infection. It's very very painful for the dog, and it takes weeks, and sometimes months to heal. Look it up - it's brutal!

And as to the appearance - what could be more lovely than the beautiful soft ear of a dobermann? And those ear flaps perform the very important function of PROTECTING the dogs ear from infection and foreign bodies. Why in the name of creation would you want to mess with that?


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

diefenbaker said:


> Perhaps you could also clear up what your other username on here is.


Not another one!  What's going on here lately, it's getting ridiculous


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Someone on another forum was saying about how their giant schnauzer's ears were bandaged upright for months because she was determined they would stand up. It's an horrific thing to do to a dog and serves no purpose other than looks. However, go on any american forum or breed specific forum where the breed is cropped and you'll have so many people saying they wouldn't have the breed if they couldn't cut its ears off :huh:. Its like they care more about looks than temperment or ability of the dogs and most of the cropped breeds should not just be being bought for looks.

An english briard with natural ears took the breed at westminster this year the commentator is normally all you can tell the breed by it's ears and eyebrows. He nearly choked this year same with the all natural black russian terrier that won a few years ago.


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Not another one!  What's going on here lately, it's getting ridiculous


I don't know for sure but then I'm not presenting evidence to a court of law. However when somebody's one and only post is to mouth-off on a contentious subject it seems a reasonable assumption.


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Loveabull said:


> Just to clear something up here, all these user's saying there is no benefit's to cropping ear's and coming up with random nonsense, ear cropping help's to prevent infection's, many say there's no proof, but to that I say prove there's no beneift's truth is no1 know's if it can PREVENT a problem.
> 
> Ear cropping help's keep ear's more healthy and easier to maintain, aside from the perfectly safe and clean method's of cropping and tapping no "wound infection's" will ever cause a problem. However dog's with droopy ear's like Lab's, Dobbie's etc, are better off with ear's being cropped in some way or another, the reason for this is, Yeast infection's need warm moist place's to be able to grow. When ear's lay flat against the dog's head/face they prevent circulation of cool air which obviously removes the heat issue and in most cases the damp/humid air which the ear's prevent's from escaping. Imagine never being able to open the windows in your home during summer and having to stay inside. no option to cool down you'd sweat more smell more and more likely to gain infection.
> 
> ...


Biggest load of crap I've read in a long time. Maybe change your user name from loveabull to deformabull.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

lucylastic said:


> Ear cropping is illegal in the UK. No you shouldn't get the ears cropped wherever you are.
> There is no good reason for it and it looks horrid too.


Couldn't agree more - it's horrific and I have absolutely no idea why on earth anyone would want to do that to their poor dog 



Ninjaseb123 said:


> Thanks for the input guys,
> Even if it was legel would it help prevent
> against infections?


Seriously ..... errrr no!



SpringerHusky said:


> Ear cropping has been banned in the Uk since 1899 :lol: the only recent thing is Docking which was banned except for working dogs (excluding scotland) in 2006.


I've maybe misunderstood this - but tail docking is illegal in Scotland too


----------



## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

My basset girl does on occasion fall over her ears... it's usually on grass but I am wondering should I crop them :laugh: Her tail is very long too....


----------



## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Lol, this did make me laugh ><

Clearly not a clue what they are going on about if they think any of our (uk's) working dogs are routinely cropped and/or docked to work :/ 

I've got a boxer and Labrador with lovely floppy ears, their ears are always clean and dry! I check they are not to hot or cold by holding their ears so I would know if they were ever moist or damp. Even in the rain, their inner ears are bone dry. 

My GSD cross however who has pricked ears that slightly flop at the top is the only who needs his ears checked and cleaned on a regular basis. 

Also, it says a lot about someone if their dogs die from major infection of the ears. I'm sorry but how on earth can you just not notice that?!?

ETA:

Oh and Lovabull, what's your excuse for cropped pits & staffs?

As far as I'm aware these are not your typical working breeds who will be in undergrowth or amongst sharp objects at work?? 
I'm sure there is no risk to their ears when weight pulling and the other sports they are seen to take part in?


----------



## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Howl said:


> My basset girl does on occasion fall over her ears... it's usually on grass but I am wondering should I crop them :laugh: Her tail is very long too....


I would get it done for sure. Might be worth asking about leg surgery, the shorter they are the less likely they are to break.


----------



## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

delca1 said:


> I would get it done for sure. Might be worth asking about leg surgery, the shorter they are the less likely they are to break.


Lol!!! 

Better get my lots legs shortened!!

Maybe take Rossis muzzle back a few inches? Should stop him sticking it in ants nests and getting all lumpy!


----------



## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

sezeelson said:


> Lol!!!
> 
> Better get my lots legs shortened!!
> 
> Maybe take Rossis muzzle back a few inches? Should stop him sticking it in ants nests and getting all lumpy!


So, surgery on ears, tails, legs, muzzle...wow, it'll look like a maggot 

Sorry, back on track, ear cropping is horrible and painful and shouldn't be done.


----------



## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

Sadly her legs are on the longer side.... :crying:


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Lilylass said:


> I've maybe misunderstood this - but tail docking is illegal in Scotland too


You have lol but that's fine. In scotland you can't even dock working dogs tails.


----------



## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

delca1 said:


> So, surgery on ears, tails, legs, muzzle...wow, it'll look like a maggot
> 
> Sorry, back on track, ear cropping is horrible and painful and shouldn't be done.


You leave my maggots alone!! At least they are fluffy maggots ^^ and with those short legs can't escape my cuddles! Muhahaha

But no, your right. Cropping = pointless & painful procedure


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Ninjaseb123 said:


> I'm getting a... Doberman [pup] as my [most-recent Dobe has died].
> 
> I didn't [have] the vet crop her ears [as a pup], & the vet said she had a terrible [ear-]infection
> at the time of her death, [& that this ear-infection] could [be] due to [her natural ears].
> ...


i've only read 4 of the comments, but IMO & IME, that's pure poppycock - 
EAR INFECTIONS are due to microbes, not whether a Dobe's ears are sliced or unsliced. 

i'd say the vet [without seeing her or him] is an old-fashioned crank, & i'd suggest finding another, ASAP.

Dogs with *stenosis - ear canals that are extremely-narrow - * are more prone to infection,
but that doesn't include Dobes as a breed - affected breeds are brachy-faced or have wee ears with thick 
ear-leathers, neither of which is a trait found in Dobes.
Bulldogs & their many relatives can suffer from stenotic ear-canals, as can Shar-Pei, Pugs, etc.

The cure for STENOSIS of the ear-canal, when it causes chronic ear-infections, is surgery - 
to open the ear canal, not to crop the pinna! 

Dogs with *hairy inner ears* are also more prone to ear-infections than the usual, but again, 
that's not a Dobe trait; show-line Cockers, Springers, Setters, Poodles, etc, have hairy inner-pinnae
& often hair in the ear-canal itself; Dobes do not! 
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Shadowrat said:


> ...Dobe people often use the [excuse that], "this is what the creator of the breed intended for them,
> therefore, we're being true to his design".
> 
> But [photos] of the first Dobes show a dog with a short crop, nothing like the longer 'show' or 'pet' crops
> ...


The original purpose of BOTH cropping AND docking of guarding-breeds was to prevent anyone - a thief,
a mugger, a burglar - from GRABBING AN EAR OR A TAIL to use as a handle, & restrain or hurt the dog,
thus discouraging the dog from protecting the property or safety of the owner.

The original ear-crop left a bare inch of ear-cartilage & pinna at the front, & shaved down to nothing, blending 
with the skull, at the back; not only does it leave the dog without "handles", it leaves the dog's EAR OPENINGS
unprotected from rain, sleet, snow, etc - & believe me, having lived with a dog who HAD such a mizrable 
crop-job [done when she was a mere pup, before my then-landlord adopted her], it's no fun for the dog 
to go out in foul weather; i had to drag her out the door, if it was so much as sprinkling, as Pogo *hated* it - 
poor girl, it would be 1 step & shake, 2 steps & shake, another step & a violent all-over body shake -

she incessantly shook her head to fling the cold drops out of her ears, as it ran down into her head - 
extremely uncomfortable. :nonod: Today, i'd buy her a snood, & she'd wear it! Every time - to save her 
from the misery of cold water filling her tender ears.

re the currently-popular SHOW or PET crops, bear in mind that the edge of the ear has stitches, all along,
which itch like fury as they heal; a *10-inch stitched incision* will take a helluva lot longer to heal,
will be far-more painful than a 3-inch one, & will be MUCH more likely to become infected. :nono:

My neighbor during my college-years had her 12-WO Dane cropped; he was a happy-go-lucky, bold, 
friendly, curious pup. She had the surgery scheduled for a Friday-AM, stayed home with him all weekend,
took Monday off, too -- all arranged ahead with her employer, mind! --- & went back to work on Tuesday.

She came home at 4-PM Tuesday to what looked like a murder scene; despite bandages & cone-collar,
he'd ripped off the bandages & *shredded* his ears' edges & pinnae; blood all over, still weeping,
& torn skin all along the ears' tender edges. She rushed him back to the vet, but little could be done; not only 
did he develop cauliflowered ears, but he became TERRIFIED of leaving the apt; he had to be shoved out the door
by brute force, even to go out to toilet. It was a complete disaster; i felt so badly. Sasquatch became a hermit,
& a quaking ninny, afraid of everyone & everything. :crying:
.
.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

SpringerHusky said:


> You have lol but that's fine. In scotland you can't even dock working dogs tails.


Ahhhhh sorry  I read it several times and thought I must be missing something!


----------



## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

A previous thread about ear cropping.
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/321972-ear-cropping.html#post1063146010

Banned in the UK circa 1850.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Can't think of ANY good reason for cropping a dog's ears. IT IS BARBARIC! and IMO would be more likely to cause infection than prevent it.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dorrit said:


> I don't think *children of either sex should be circumcised* & yet many people think that, if it's done early & under aneasthetic,
> it's OK.


the surgeries to remove the *foreskin* on a boy's or man's penis, vs "circumcise" women or girls,
are vastly different, just as desex in M vs F dogs differs; one is a minor surgery, U can use local anaesthetic
& make a small incision to remove the testes; a few stitches, & it's done. Spay is intra-abdominal, mandates the use
of general anaesthetic, requires a much-larger incision [or keyhole surgery where the abdomen is inflated 
with gas, to give the surgeon room to work & using long tools to reach inward], & goes thru the wall 
of the abdomen - all 3 layers of skin, 3 layers of muscle, one of integument, & the abdomenal lining.

The removal of testes goes only thru the thin skin of the scrotum, & cuts a single blood vessel.

Similarly, *circumcision* in a male is only an inch or two of attachment at the base of the penis;
it does NOT *remove the ability to orgasm*, it does NOT result in *deliberate & extensive scarring*,
& it does NOT make *taking a normal stride while walking, impossible.*

The average EXTERIOR incision on a girl of 9-YO is about 5 to 6-inches in extent; the INNER LABIA 
are removed, along with the clitoris. The INTERIOR incision is usually 9 to 10-inches in length - all this, 
with no anaesthesia, no antiseptic precautions, & often with the whole village's girls from 7 to 11 or so
done with the SAME FILTHY, BLOODY INSTRUMENT - usually a straight-razor. Infections are almost guaranteed.

the OPENING left is filled with a *straw - * thru which raw, bloody opening she must pee;
when it heals, she can take only short, hobbled steps; she cannot RUN. In a country torn by civil war 
& tribal fighting, who can flee?... Not the *"circumcised"* women & girls, they are helpless. :mad5:

Men or boys have not *died of shock* after their foreskin is removed; many girls & women have.

Men or boys have not *bled to death* after their foreskin is removed; many girls & women have.

Women who have been *"circumcised"* have no clitoris, & have a tiny scar-toughened opening to 
the vagina, that MUST BE CUT to have sex with their husbands, & later is CUT AGAIN to give birth;
for those unaware, every surgery causes scarring. The more surgery, the more scars; women DIE in Africa
as a direct result of so-called "female circumcision" causing the skin between vagina & anus to RIP OPEN, 
leaving her to run feces down her legs, uncontrollably; anal incontinence in a country where flush-toilets are
very rare, & indoor plumbing is only in cities, for WEALTHY people?

Village wives who have sh*t running down their legs are usually forced out of their homes - they beg, 
they starve, they commit suicide. It is extremely common.

WARNING - 
This link is to a *graphic & bloody photo of the labia being removed,
on a prepubertal girl - *
cir015 | Female Genital Mutilation

Let's not equate genital mutilation with foreskin removal. The 2 are far from identical. :nonod:


----------

