# "It's hard to be a man right now" with all these allegations of sexual harassment....



## Guest (Nov 12, 2017)

Worth a read.

https://www.bustle.com/p/to-guys-wh...&utm_medium=owned&utm_campaign=feminismbustle


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Who are these women who are walking around in a constant state of terror?

I’m sorry, but articles like this irritate the hell out of me. Yes people (both male and female - I have witnessed countless women behaving inappropriately with men who were clearly uncomfortable with it) need to watch their interactions, but it’s a sad world of people can’t have a consensual flirt without being terrified that they’re going to be labelled a predator. 

What also needs to be addressed are the spurious claims, such as the latest one that came out against George Takei. Now nobody, Bar the two of them know the truth, but it’s grossly unfair for someone to have their name dragged through the press before any investigation. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? I don’t think that guilty by the court of Social Media should affect someone’s life. 

Over here, we have a politician who committed suicide after a complaint was lodged against him. That is horrific, yet nobody stops to think of the fallout in these men’s lives if they are innocent. And I’m not saying he is, the point is, nobody knows, and already his life was made so hellish that he felt that was the only way out. Awful.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Woman and "equal rights", stop playing victims.



> Among men we don't know or trust (and even among the ones we do), we maintain a watchfulness, embedded in our everyday thoughts.


Men have that all the time as well, nothing new.

Oh look let's have witch hunts instead.

There is an issue needing to be addressed. One side of the discussion however gets shut down. Most men are decent but when you cannot ask someone out without it becoming a "me too" hashtag, yes there is a problem.

That's all, been here before before thread was locked.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2017)

MiffyMoo said:


> Who are these women who are walking around in a constant state of terror?


No one. That's not what the article was saying. It was simply saying that it's good for us to have to re-examine our behavior. "Just like not being racist in a deeply racist world takes work, not being sexist in an environment that normalizes sexist attitudes requires conscious commitment and awareness." Pretty much sums it up.

Funny, OH (a man, father to a daughter and a son) read this article and agreed that there is nothing hard in being a man if you're a decent human being who respects other human beings. In fact his comment was "Good. I hope more women come forward." He for one, as a decent man, is glad the assholes of the world are being called out finally. As are many other of my friends who are also decent men.



MiffyMoo said:


> Over here, we have a politician who committed suicide after a complaint was lodged against him. That is horrific, yet nobody stops to think of the fallout in these men's lives if they are innocent.


And that is horrible and tragic.

Not regarding this particular politician as I am wholly unfamiliar with the case, but in general, I have to believe though in the adage that I also tell my kids: "Live your life in such a way that if someone were to make up a lie about you, no one would believe it." I have seen this in action in my own life on countless occasions, and in the lives of others. Yes, it does happen that innocent people get accused of sexual misconduct, but it is exceedingly rare that they are entirely innocent, and even rarer that they are actually convicted of anything if innocent.



Goblin said:


> Oh look let's have witch hunts instead.


I'm just going to copy and paste the article which you obviously didn't read:
"Though if one more person calls it a "witch hunt" I will scream, because co-opting a historical occurrence that disproportionately, gruesomely punished single women with death as a metaphor for uncovering abuses by powerful men is not acceptable."


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

This is the paragraph I objected to, and it gave me very little inclination to continue with the rest of the article:

if you're feeling vigilant and wary of the opposite sex, and are constantly monitoring your relationships with them in the workplace, on public transport, on the street — you're getting an insight into what women feel like. All the time. Every day. Yes, the stakes are wildly different — because as worried about their reputations as they may be, men don't have to worry about their physical safety around women, as women so often do with men. 

I actually take exception to your last paragraph to me. You basically said “it’s extremely unlikely he’s innocent”. Tried and found guilty already; congratulations, no need for an investigation then. 

Over here there is a witch hunt against our politicians (yes, that dratted word; I honestly don’t care if it makes the author scream), and a list was produced with many politicians names on with random allegations against them. Now people, who may be entirely innocent, are having to defend themselves against a nasty little spreadsheet that everyone is desperate to believe.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2017)

MiffyMoo said:


> You basically said "it's extremely unlikely he's innocent".


No, I said "not regarding this particular politician."

Bus since we're going there, do you know how many women who have been harassed, abused, and attacked end up committing suicide? Is anyone reporting on those numbers? Saving a word of compassion for these people?

It's okay, I don't expect agreement. As I said before, societal shifts are difficult, and change is always hard and will come with lots of kicking and screaming along the way. But the kicking and screaming gives me hope because it means the much needed shift in how we treat each other in this society is happening.

And I'm also posting for those women (and men) who don't participate on these kinds of threads, but do read them and need to hear the voice of support.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> No, I said "not regarding this particular politician."
> 
> Bus since we're going there, do you know how many women who have been harassed, abused, and attacked end up committing suicide? Is anyone reporting on those numbers? Saving a word of compassion for these people?
> 
> ...


When you follow a statement with "but" it generally negates the preceding statement.

Please don't assume to know how I feel about the victims. I'm actually furious with you right now for throwing that in there. So because I feel compassion for these men who have not been convicted, it means I don't care about real victims. You have absolutely no clue


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2017)

MiffyMoo said:


> When you follow a statement with "but" it generally negates the preceding statement.
> 
> Please don't assume to know how I feel about the victims. I'm actually furious with you right now for throwing that in there. So because I feel compassion for these men who have not been convicted, it means I don't care about real victims. You have absolutely no clue


I'm sorry you're upset. I'm really not trying to make anyone angry. I read an article that I felt was worthy of sharing, and I shared. I'm really okay with people not agreeing with the article, which you don't. I accept that.
There are members who will find the article worthwhile and validating, I'm posting for them, not to anger members like you.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

George? I love George Takei, he’s so warm and funny. I can’t believe he drugged and molested somebody.  Ok, so some attractive guy went home with him and he tried it on, why wouldn’t he, but to suggest he secretly drugged and molested them while they were unconscious. :Arghh

I don’t believe it.

I do agree that it should be innocent until proved guilty and kept out of the papers, but I still quite liked the linked article’s ending paragraph. For the innocent to have nothing to worry about, it has to be kept private until they’re proven to not be innocent imo.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Women have been their own worst enemies in the last few years. One thing these women need to remember is this,For those crying " wolf" every 2 minutes, they are making light of the women that have/had, real cause to complain. *
*I have has advances, touches, wolf whistles ect, but at no time did i feel the need to go to the authorities. Some women ( not all), need to get real and deal with life.*
*We must be the only species that can take a guy to court because we don't like his behaviour.*


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

ouesi said:


> That's not what the article was saying. It was simply saying that it's good for us to have to re-examine our behavior. "Just like not being racist in a deeply racist world takes work, not being sexist in an environment that normalizes sexist attitudes requires conscious commitment and awareness."
> 
> Funny, OH (a man, father to a daughter and a son) read this article and agreed that there is nothing hard in being a man if you're a decent human being who respects other human beings. In fact his comment was "Good. I hope more women come forward." He for one, as a decent man, is glad the assholes of the world are being called out finally. As are many other of my friends who are also decent men.


It really shouldnt take 'commitment and awareness' not to be a pig in your daily life. Not being a pig should be the average persons base setting and so I have little sympathy for people who cant resist having a cheeky grope just coz thats what happens in their business all the time so its probably alright. It doesnt take a genius to know what it appropriate behaviour and what isnt, trying to normalize sexist attitudes is just pigs trying to justify their piggishness IMO.

We all know this is true coz Im sure the majority of men we know in our lives manage to avoid the kinds of things actors and politicians are now being accused of without even thinking about it! As for the terrified women mentioned in the article?...meh, not buying it. For every super worried woman there is a drunk one passed out on the street with her skirt round her armpits to balance things out!LOL


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Im 62 , I lived the sexist sixties and seventies , it was dreadful . 


I wanted to be equal to men .
What I don't want is reverse sexism . 
Women have suffered terribly and still do but I don't want the men who have suffered from physically attacks by their partners , who have been molested and groped by woman and falsely accused of assault and sexual assault to be ignored.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2017)

catz4m8z said:


> For every super worried woman there is a drunk one passed out on the street with her skirt round her armpits to balance things out!LOL


I don't see the balance there, .


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

The direction these threads always take really depresses me and I have to think hard about whether to engage or just let it slide for the sake of my own mental wellbeing.
There is no 'witch hunt'. It is just that sexual predators are now finally (to an extent) being dealt with. The whole 'accusations ruin men's lives' is bullshit, just look at Woody Allen and Roman Polanski. Christ, a large chunk of the male Corrie cast have bounced back after facing allegations of sexual assault. Jimmy Savile got away with it until he was dead. It took the combined voices of sixty plus women to finally nail Harvey Weinstein (interestingly when the victim is male as with Kevin Spacey it seems one voice is enough). Donald Trump got elected US president despite his conduct being public knowledge. Carl Sargent's case is very sad but we still don't know the full story there either. Having committed suicide does not determine his innocence or otherwise, and as far as I can see Carwyn Jones dealt with it in the way anyone else in his position would have.
That some men reckon they have so much to fear now says more about them and what they think is acceptable behaviour. If you treat women like human beings instead of something to grope you're fine.
As for 'women are just as bad', sorry but all of documented history and any look at the news proves that that is just not true.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

picaresque said:


> As for 'women are just as bad', sorry but all of documented history and any look at the news proves that that is just not true.


 I agree with a lot of your post but not sure what you mean by this . Are you saying that women don't molest or grope men ?


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> I agree with a lot of your post but not sure what you mean by this . Are you saying that women don't molest or grope men ?


I clearly didn't say that. It happens but let's face it it always comes up in these discussions as if there's some sort of hidden epidemic of men being sexually abused by women. The vast, vast majority of sexual offences are committed by men, and most victims are women.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

I agree with @MiffyMoo . This article is going to the extreme.

"And there's one aspect that seems to be pretty absent from their consideration: that if you're feeling vigilant and wary of the opposite sex, and are constantly monitoring your relationships with them in the workplace, on public transport, on the street - you're getting an insight into what women feel like. All the time. Every day"

Really? I think she grossly exaggerates things a bit here. I have occasionally been a bit wary of men (had a drunk on the bus who was a bit unpleasant) but by and large I have not noticed the vast majority of men being inappropriate. I have not felt unsafe or uncomfortable when a bloke has sat next to me, on the bus or coach, any more than if a woman sits next to me.

Yes there are some very bad men out there who do horrible things. But if women keep demonizing men and tarring them all with the same brush girls are going to grow up fearing that all men are bad, and boys will grow up fearing they will inadvertently do something that is classed as harassment.
Plus what is harassment? To some feminists it's doing something as innocent as touching your arm or back


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## AmyRedd (Nov 9, 2015)

I must admit I do relate the article in a way. When I travel into the city for uni I walk from the train station making sure I don't maintain eye contact with any men in case they get the wrong idea as has happened many times before. Yes maybe I do my makeup and my hair and wear something nice. But that's because I like to look nice for me not for attention. I still get shouted at or beeped at even if I'm wearing a huge coat with my hair up and no make on walking the dog. It's annoying and embarrassing. Maybe I'm over sensitive but I've been called a "b*tch" for refusing to give my number out to a random man as I was leaving a pub. I've been followed into Topshop by a man who "liked my smile and wanted to get to know me" and wouldn't take no for an answer. Everyone in the shop witnessed it and no one offered to help.
Sorry for ranting but I am frankly quite sick of it and I'm glad it's all coming to light now. 

On the other hand I do know people who've had their lives ruined by lies and anyone who jumps on the band wagon making false accusations such have to face equal consequences.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

picaresque said:


> I clearly didn't say that. It happens but let's face it it always comes up in these discussions as if there's some sort of hidden epidemic of men being sexually abused by women. The vast, vast majority of sexual offences are committed by men, and most victims are women.


 perhaps not epidemic but it does happen . Its not less important to the men or boys, or less horrible or embarrassing to them than it is to women and I dont think it should be dismissed or ignored just because it happens less often .


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

picaresque said:


> The direction these threads always take really depresses me and I have to think hard about whether to engage or just let it slide for the sake of my own mental wellbeing.
> There is no 'witch hunt'. It is just that sexual predators are now finally (to an extent) being dealt with. The whole 'accusations ruin men's lives' is bullshit, just look at Woody Allen and Roman Polanski. Christ, a large chunk of the male Corrie cast have bounced back after facing allegations of sexual assault. Jimmy Savile got away with it until he was dead. It took the combined voices of sixty plus women to finally nail Harvey Weinstein (interestingly when the victim is male as with Kevin Spacey it seems one voice is enough). Donald Trump got elected US president despite his conduct being public knowledge. Carl Sargent's case is very sad but we still don't know the full story there either. Having committed suicide does not determine his innocence or otherwise, and as far as I can see Carwyn Jones dealt with it in the way anyone else in his position would have.
> That some men reckon they have so much to fear now says more about them and what they think is acceptable behaviour. If you treat women like human beings instead of something to grope you're fine.
> As for 'women are just as bad', sorry but all of documented history and any look at the news proves that that is just not true.


I do agree with the main points in your post but do have to question whether those accused of sexual assault/rape/abuse, etc really do bounce back quite so easily. I know 2 people who were falsely accused (a man of rape & woman of child abuse), both were innocent & in both cases the victims admitted they lied (although the rape case actually went to court).

Neither of these people bounced back, both had to move away from their areas as some of the local community could not accept that there was 'no smoke without fire'


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

AmyRedd said:


> I must admit I do relate the article in a way. When I travel into the city for uni I walk from the train station making sure I don't maintain eye contact with any men in case they get the wrong idea as has happened many times before. Yes maybe I do my makeup and my hair and wear something nice. But that's because I like to look nice for me not for attention. I still get shouted at or beeped at even if I'm wearing a huge coat with my hair up and no make on walking the dog. It's annoying and embarrassing. Maybe I'm over sensitive but I've been called a "b*tch" for refusing to give my number out to a random man as I was leaving a pub. I've been followed into Topshop by a man who "liked my smile and wanted to get to know me" and wouldn't take no for an answer. Everyone in the shop witnessed it and no one offered to help.
> Sorry for ranting but I am frankly quite sick of it and I'm glad it's all coming to light now.
> 
> On the other hand I do know people who've had their lives ruined by lies and anyone who jumps on the band wagon making false accusations such have to face equal consequences.


 you're not being over sensitive at all. I'm sorry this kind of thing is still happening .


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> I do agree with the main points in your post but do have to question whether those accused of sexual assault/rape/abuse, etc really do bounce back quite so easily. I know 2 people who were falsely accused (a man of rape & woman of child abuse), both were innocent & in both cases the victims admitted they lied (although the rape case actually went to court).
> 
> Neither of these people bounced back, both had to move away from their areas as some of the local community could not accept that there was 'no smoke without fire'


Indeed which makes me wonder if names should be kept out of the public domain until charges are actually brought, at the very least?

Where does this all stand with regard to slander/libel/defamation of character I wonder?


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> perhaps not epidemic but it does happen . Its not less important to the men or boys, or less horrible or embarrassing to them than it is to women and I dont think it should be dismissed or ignored just because it happens less often .


Who's dismissing it? Not me. It's just that the article in the OP is not about men being abused. 'What about the men' is such a common silencing tactic when it comes to women's issues, but yeah male victims of violence and sexual abuse absolutely deserve recognition and support. Dare I say the majority of these male victims are abused by... other men? Either way it should not be dismissed or ignored. I know Corey Feldman is having a really hard time of it atm, it's a pretty open secret what happened to him and the late Corey Haim (stuff about Charlie Sheen has recently come out) but unsurprisingly child sexual abuse tends to leave victims with a lot of issues which are used against them when they try to get justice.



Cleo38 said:


> I do agree with the main points in your post but do have to question whether those accused of sexual assault/rape/abuse, etc really do bounce back quite so easily. I know 2 people who were falsely accused (a man of rape & woman of child abuse), both were innocent & in both cases the victims admitted they lied (although the rape case actually went to court).
> 
> Neither of these people bounced back, both had to move away from their areas as some of the local community could not accept that there was 'no smoke without fire'


All I can say is that false rape accusations are incredibly rare, despite what some corners of the media would like people to think.



Lurcherlad said:


> Indeed which makes me wonder if names should be kept out of the public domain until charges are actually brought, at the very least?
> 
> Where does this all stand with regard to slander/libel/defamation of character I wonder?


The only thing about this is that it's only ever brought up with regard to sexual offences. Not robbery, or fraud or murder. I can't help wondering why.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> Indeed which makes me wonder if names should be kept out of the public domain until charges are actually brought, at the very least?
> 
> Where does this all stand with regard to slander/libel/defamation of character I wonder?


Thats the thing isn't. The "media" love a good sex allegation story against a celebrity.... but you don't often hear the outcome of those allegations though...

Not just celebrities as well, but I have seen similar things happen to "normal" people. I have a friend who was accused of rape by a friend of his wife who he gave a lift home to after a party. His name was dragged through the mud via local media, and also social media which added to it. He lost his job, his wife left him. Turns out the woman made it all up because he refused her advances.

However by the time she came clean the damage had already been done.

I believe we should treat sexual harassment and assaults with the seriousness they deserve, but we must also stop the mud slinging prior to all the facts are known. Innocent until proven guilty... at least that's how it used to work.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

ouesi said:


> No one. That's not what the article was saying. It was simply saying that it's good for us to have to re-examine our behavior. "Just like not being racist in a deeply racist world takes work, not being sexist in an environment that normalizes sexist attitudes requires conscious commitment and awareness." Pretty much sums it up.
> 
> Funny, OH (a man, father to a daughter and a son) read this article and agreed that there is nothing hard in being a man if you're a decent human being who respects other human beings. In fact his comment was "Good. I hope more women come forward." He for one, as a decent man, is glad the assholes of the world are being called out finally. As are many other of my friends who are also decent men.
> 
> ...


Great article, @ouesi and great reply.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

picaresque said:


> *The only thing about this is that it's only ever brought up with regard to sexual offences. Not robbery, or fraud or murder. I can't help wondering why*.


I commented on it because the thread was discussing sexual offences.

However, being wrongfully accused of a sexual offence or murder might have a more devastating effect on an innocent person's life than being accused of the other two perhaps?

As we know, mud sticks.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/27/the-m...are-common-is-dangerous-and-damaging-6956067/

"According to a major study by the British Home Office, around *8%* of rape allegations are false, which would mean that *92%* are real.
Another study by the Crown Prosecution Service found that in a period of 17 months, 5,651 rape allegations were made and only 35 were found to be false - just 0.2%."


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2017)

I think @picaresque sums it up best.


picaresque said:


> The whole 'accusations ruin men's lives' is bullshit, just look at Woody Allen and Roman Polanski. Christ, a large chunk of the male Corrie cast have bounced back after facing allegations of sexual assault. Jimmy Savile got away with it until he was dead. It took the combined voices of sixty plus women to finally nail Harvey Weinstein (interestingly when the victim is male as with Kevin Spacey it seems one voice is enough). Donald Trump got elected US president despite his conduct being public knowledge.


Even when allegations prove to be true, or the man is taped bragging about assaulting women without their consent and admits to the behavior, he gets elected president. Forgive my cynicism about false allegations ruining lives. As a societal collective, we're still excusing this behavior far more than we're condemning it.

Which is why men like my husband and men like of my long time running buddies and men like one of my bosses - decent men who are fathers and husbands and sick to the back teeth of assholes getting away with assholish behavior, who are sick of being marginalized themselves for refusing to look the other way or laugh inappropriate behavior off - these men are so glad to see more and more victims come forward and see the whole system crumble.

It's time.

And we as a society will be better for it when we get through the growing pains of becoming a more equal society.

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, I was minding my own business on FB, friends have babies and another got married and there are joyful pictures all over. I'm sitting there enjoying the joy of new life, new chapters, when FB decides to suggest an article to me. Something about safety for women runners. Naively (I know, in hindsight I look like an idiot) I thought it was going to be about how to keep joints and muscles supple, geared towards women. Nope. It was about what women should do to keep themselves safe out on a run.
Among the "rules" were to not run alone, don't run at dusk or dawn, run in well-lit, well populated areas, carry mace, let someone know your route and when you plan to get home, you know, just common sense safety precautions right?

No. F-that.

I got to thinking of all the times my friends - male AND female have chided me for running where I do, out in the boonies. When I do, at dark-o-clock AM. Outright "you're crazy" (and meant it) to backhanded admonishments "I wouldn't feel safe" and of course the patronizingly patriarchal "my husband wouldn't let me do that."
Underlining it all is the not so subtle subtext that if something were to happen to me, my choice to go for a walk or run on my own, in my own space, on my own time is partially (if not wholly) to blame.

No one chides men for running in the dark on their own in sketchy areas. No one questions their sanity if they don't have a buddy ready to come with them or check if they're home yet.
But when a woman (me) refuses to be afraid (I'm really not) and ditches the 'common sense safety precautions' of being a woman out unattended god forbid, she's crazy.


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## AmyRedd (Nov 9, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I think @picaresque sums it up best.
> 
> Even when allegations prove to be true, or the man is taped bragging about assaulting women without their consent and admits to the behavior, he gets elected president. Forgive my cynicism about false allegations ruining lives. As a societal collective, we're still excusing this behavior far more than we're condemning it.
> 
> ...


This exactly! I jog home about 3/4 miles from work everyday with the dog. It's along the canal and it goes dark at half 4 so I jog in the dark no biggie right? Except now there's apparently been multiple attacks on women on that same stretch of canal in the past few weeks and my OH has put his foot down and said no more running along the canal. I totally get where he's coming from but its pretty unfair. I know a lot of women who won't even walk on the canal now even during the day it's just ridiculous!


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I got to thinking of all the times my friends - male AND female have chided me for running where I do, out in the boonies. When I do, at dark-o-clock AM. Outright "you're crazy" (and meant it) to backhanded admonishments "I wouldn't feel safe" and of course the patronizingly patriarchal "my husband wouldn't let me do that."
> All of course underlining it all is the not so subtle subtext that if something were to happen to me, my choice to go for a walk or run on my own, in my own space, on my own time is partially (if not wholly) to blame.
> 
> No one chides men for running in the dark on their own in sketchy areas. No one questions their sanity if they don't have a buddy ready to come with them or check if they're home yet.
> But when a woman (me) refuses to be afraid (I'm really not) and ditches the 'common sense safety precautions' of being a woman out unattended god forbid, she's crazy.


I've posted before about how I mostly walk the dog at night, between about 9pm and midnight. I'm a natural night-owl and I like the peace and quiet. I'll be buggered if I'm going to allow predatory men to keep me at home, so all those people who think those acknowledging the high levels of sexual assault in society are silly women 'living in fear' couldn't be more wrong. I've had a few scary incidents out walking in the dark tbh one of which I've mentioned a few times on PF. I'm not afraid, but I am vigilant.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I think @picaresque sums it up best.
> 
> Even when allegations prove to be true, or the man is taped bragging about assaulting women without their consent and admits to the behavior, he gets elected president. Forgive my cynicism about false allegations ruining lives. As a societal collective, we're still excusing this behavior far more than we're condemning it.
> 
> ...


The side effects of codeine (bad hip - long story which is completely O/T) are starting to kick in, so if this is illegible, I apologise in advance.

You bring up an interesting point here, and this may turn in to a mini-rant of my own ... I don't mean it the way it might sound.

It amazes me that, when I go to my mum's, or brother and SIL's and stay late, they encourage me to text them to let them know I'm home safe - mum often texts me before I have a chance to get home, but, with the exception of high summer, I'm walking the dogs in the dark at least twice a day (1-3 times each per dog) with no texts asking when i'm home, or asking me to let them know when i'm in for the night.

In my case, I've never been harrassed or groped or had men following me, trying desperately to get my number or anything like that, so all of that, while I understand it is an important issue, and one that needs to be stopped immediately, that, to me, is completely alien. I'd like to believe I employ some common sense and only walk in built up, predominently well-lit areas after dark, but there js ine section along which there are no street lights, if I choose to go that way. It is, however, closer to a group of houses and bungalows than if I were to carry on walking a bit further and walk in only well lit areas. . .

Sorry if i'm rambling.... :Bag


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@picaresque 
I don't know the numbers of men sexually assaulting other men or woman assaulting other women for that matter.

As to domestic violence against men by women i found the article below 
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

The charity's analysis of statistics on domestic violence shows the number of men attacked by wives or girlfriends is much higher than thought. Its report, _Domestic Violence: The Male Perspective_, states: "Domestic violence is often seen as a female victim/male perpetrator problem, but the evidence demonstrates that this is a false picture."

Data from Home Office statistical bulletins and the British Crime Survey show that men made up about 40% of domestic violence victims each year between 2004-05 and 2008-09, the last year for which figures are available. In 2006-07 men made up 43.4% of all those who had suffered partner abuse in the previous year, which rose to 45.5% in 2007-08 but fell to 37.7% in 2008-09.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Funny, OH (a man, father to a daughter and a son) read this article and agreed that there is nothing hard in being a man if you're a decent human being who respects other human beings. In fact his comment was "Good. I hope more women come forward." He for one, as a decent man, is glad the assholes of the world are being called out finally. As are many other of my friends who are also decent men.


Its easy to forget there are many decent men in the world when all the attention is on the bad ones .

quote from the article

< Among men we don't know or trust (and even among the ones we do), we maintain a watchfulness, embedded in our everyday thoughts. >

I am vigilant sometimes depending on where I walk , I've turned back if I have seen a man or men in places where I can't give then a wide berth . I do this because of a couple of incidences that put wind up me and because I can't run or fight as I used too.

On the other hand I wonder how decent men feel about always being seen as a potential molester or rapist every time they meet a woman that doesn't know them . Do they deserve that ?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

God....when I think back to the 60s and 70s working in the offices of a large factory, the times we had our bra flicked at the back to see if it would unhook or have one the lads we worked with grab you and putting their arms round you and the odd rude remark, OK it wasn't nice but no way would a complaint be made, the thought of it now nearly every young man would have been charged.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> On the other hand I wonder how decent men feel about always being seen as a potential molester or rapist every time they meet a woman that doesn't know them . Do they deserve that ?


No, they absolutely don't, and I think on some level, that's why there are so many decent men out there happy to see the creeps being called out.

Because see, when sexual harassment and misconduct is an "open secret" and just "one of those things" as it has been for, well, forever; then it does become an thing where any man in a potential predator. But now... now the creeps are being called out. Now it becomes an issue of specific men, and it's no longer an "any man" problem, but a problem of specific men who have done specific things. And that's very liberating for all the men who are not involved in this type of behavior.

Personally I think there are far more decent people (men and women) out there than not. So to call out inappropriate and worse behavior for exactly what it is can only be a good thing. The good guys are validated, the bad guys are separated from the rest, and the ones on the fence will have to decide what side they're going to be on.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

I think if (some) men feel that it's hard(er) to be a man right now then they need to sit down and do some inward thinking. And that can only be a good thing. Are social skills really that difficult to learn.

J


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I think what I find difficult to understand is how some men find this difficult ..... is it really that confusing to know how to behave?! 

My niece is currently going through a horrible situation at work with a middle aged man who has sexually harrassed & bullied a couple of women in the workplace. It was all started under the guise of 'banter' & as she works in a male dominated environment she tried to put up with it & not make an issue of her being female.But obviously this man was singling her out because of this & the bullying & harrassment got worse until a male colleague persuaded hr to report it. Luckily she did & the other women then came forward to make a statement. 

Personally I want to kill him as the upset he has caused her but I just hope it is dealt with correctly by her employer


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> God....when I think back to the 60s and 70s working in the offices of a large factory, the times we had our bra flicked at the back to see if it would unhook or have one the lads we worked with grab you and putting their arms round you and the odd rude remark, OK it wasn't nice but no way would a complaint be made, the thought of it now nearly every young man would have been charged.


This is the issue I have with a lot of this. While men these days should know the line not to cross, some are being put on public trial for todays red line, when years ago it was in a very different place


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> This is the issue I have with a lot of this. While men these days should know the line not to cross, some are being put on public trial for todays red line, when years ago it was in a very different place


But was it really? Would those men who trot that line out have been happy if their wives, sisters, daughters, mothers,etc been treated the way they treated some women?....or was it just that they could get away with it then?

Whilst I do think we have to be careful in that people aren't publicly accused with no evidence,etc I also think that there are far too many excuses being put forward for some men. Groping, humiliating,bullying, etc has never been acceptable


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> But was it really?


Yes


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

rona said:


> Yes


I doubt it ...... some office jokes, etc maybe but actual assault, groping bullying then no it wasn't acceptable but tolerated which is different


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

rona said:


> This is the issue I have with a lot of this. While men these days should know the line not to cross, some are being put on public trial for todays red line, when years ago it was in a very different place


Indeed it was. Mainstream TV from 1970's.......


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I'm just going to copy and paste the article which you obviously didn't read:
> "Though if one more person calls it a "witch hunt" I will scream, because co-opting a historical occurrence that disproportionately, gruesomely punished single women with death as a metaphor for uncovering abuses by powerful men is not acceptable."


Who said I didn't read it? I just don't agree with the one sided false logic. Just because it originally pushed for one sex does not invalidate my statement. Witch hunt.. trial by mob, ignoring basic human right of innocent until proven guilty. The very fact you don't acknowledge that basic right suggests something very wrong with the current environment. Some aren't even told what they are accused of. How do you defend against that?

Throughout this, two wrongs never make a right no matter how justified you think you are.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

Satori said:


> Indeed it was. Mainstream TV from 1970's......


 But we still knew it was wrong, or at least i did. I'm not trying to say i was a saint, i like a cleavage or a glimpse of thigh as much as the next man, but i never nipped a bum, grabbed a grope or anything that could be considered wrong, maybe because i grew up with a strong take charge mother, or in a small village run by the mothers or whatever it was. I have no trouble being a man in this modern age, i have worked in a mainly women work place for 22 years and its easy, treat them like they were your sister.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

We need to look to the future too, as well as our past . There has been a rise in sexual incidences amongst young children at school etc , they have been influence by watching porn on the internet and awful children's TV programmes like Hollyoakes which shows awful story line s, murder , blackmail etc at 6.30 in the evening .

They need our guidance other wise they will grow up believing this is normal behaviour . 

Edited as I put the wrong programme time .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Satori said:


> Indeed it was. Mainstream TV from 1970's.......


 You know what also annoys me is that in those 70s programmes like On the buses and Quincy , it was always old men and young attractive girls . it was mens' fantasies . Did they really believe that that girls would fancy men like reg varney ? Bleuch :Vomit


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> reg varney ? Bleuch


 Well Reg you could almost believe but the Conductor guy Arghhhhhhhhh LOL


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> Who are these women who are walking around in a constant state of terror?
> 
> I'm sorry, but articles like this irritate the hell out of me.


Agreed. That author clearly has some issues.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

But even now though if you watch most films/TV programmes depicting couples the woman is usually much younger & more attractive than her partner


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

I think it a good thing that women are coming forward against these men nowadays. Sexual harassment/assault is not ok, on any level. I've had a look at the article (not had chance to fully read it, supposed to be doing work) and from what I've seen it is a bit extreme in that the woman is making out that a lot of women fear being around men when out and about. Is this true? Do a large percentage of the female population fear being around men, even if its in a completely innocent environment like sitting next to a guy on the bus for example? I can understand women who have been through harassment/assault being wary/fearful. But someone like me for example wouldn't even care, its about context at the end of the day. If the guy started saying rude things or touching then yes I would be scared. But just innocently sitting next to me and possibly saying hi, no problem with that. Basically what I am trying to say is this woman from my POV is saying that women go out feeling scared of men, when I don't think this is true for everyone and I don't really agree with her implying that. For some women yes this happens and I'm not denying that.

I also don't agree with the accusing men without proper evidence either, don't drag some innocent mans name through the mud.

I don't usually get involved with these types of discussions as I realise emotions get high and I don't want my comments to get taken the wrong way. Just to clarify I absolutely think women should come forward and report if they are sure of who sexually assaulted/harassed or raped them. Men should as well (I agree they are just as important, even if it doesn't happen to them as much). I just think it a bit extreme to imply that every woman lives in fear of getting assaulted by men when out and about, I'd wager a guess that most men are decent guys who wouldn't dream of doing that to a woman. Maybe that's just me being idealistic though.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> But even now though if you watch most films/TV programmes depicting couples the woman is usually much younger & more attractive than her partner


Actually that's not true. Off the top of my head you can go from Moonlighting and Remington Steele to Lucifer and Castle. Then there's A Fine Romance, Butterflies and To The Manor Born. I'm sure there are many more but that's seven without thinking.


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## Biffo (Mar 14, 2016)

I worked in a mostly male environment, and lived alone in my late teens early twenties, the article was pretty accurate for me and was pretty much how I lived. I'm not terrified of men, I don't think they are all predators, most people are decent. I didn't experience any physical harassment, but the verbal harassment was pretty much constant. It didn't make me live in terror but it made me very guarded, and I did watch how friendly I was. 

It ranged from loud conversations, so not directly to me but in my hearing, speculating about my sex life, sexuality etc, to innuendo, i.e. IT guy telling me he'd come to "interfere with my position", also sexually explicit stuff Said directly to me. Standing very closely behind me, not touching but if I even swayed a bit without moving my feet I'd have touched them. This is just off the top of my head, but it happeneded all the time. And it was deliberate, my defence mechanism was to repeat what they said very loudly, with a disgusted look on my face, they would get flustered at everyone staring and sniggering at them and would call me a hard faced b***h etc. It was always the same people, most men were not like this, but i moved around a lot in my job, and no matter where I worked there were always a few.

I second think men and am aware of men in a way that is different to how I view women, no doubt a product of my early adult life.


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## KittenEevee (May 19, 2017)

.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually that's not true. Off the top of my head you can go from Moonlighting and Remington Steele to Lucifer and Castle. Then there's A Fine Romance, Butterflies and To The Manor Born. I'm sure there are many more but that's seven without thinking.


Wow, you thought of seven out of the millions that have been made ... well done!!!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Quite an interesting chart which shows age differences between male actors & their female counterparts in films .......

http://www.vulture.com/2013/04/leading-men-age-but-their-love-interests-dont.html


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> Wow, you thought of seven out of the millions that have been made ... well done!!!


Well you come up seven tv programs where there is a big age difference then, and that's off the top of your head without thinking. Frankly I can't come up with one, probably could with a bit of thought though.

Thought of one May To December, but the whole point of the show was the age difference.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

But , to be fair, there are women around the world who live in fear because of their culture , India for example, where their have been dreadful cases of rape and murder. 

Edited because I wrote something about the author that was incorrect .


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## AmyRedd (Nov 9, 2015)

I wouldn't say I live in fear but I'm certainly wary. I'm aware the majority of the male population is bigger, stronger and maybe faster than I am. 

Should I be thinking that way? Probably not. I mean I'm not constantly thinking about it etc and I'm happy to have a friendly chat with the bloke sat next to me on the train. But if I get "those vibes" from someone then I start to think of how to get out of a situation should it arise. I have to visit clients houses on my own for my job and there's been a few times I've hesitated going into a mans house... I also used to work on my own in a local pub and there's been times I've had to contact my boss or OH and ask them to come in because I've felt uncomfortable about certain clientele. I've been grabbed outside the same pub while I was working by a man who didn't see it as anything other than a bit of "banter". Nothing awful has ever happened to be but enough to make me and many of my friends very wary... all the time...


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Satori said:


> Indeed it was. Mainstream TV from 1970's.......


and Benny Hill


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Biffo said:


> I worked in a mostly male environment, and lived alone in my late teens early twenties, the article was pretty accurate for me and was pretty much how I lived. I'm not terrified of men, I don't think they are all predators, most people are decent. I didn't experience any physical harassment, but the verbal harassment was pretty much constant. It didn't make me live in terror but it made me very guarded, and I did watch how friendly I was.
> 
> It ranged from loud conversations, so not directly to me but in my hearing, speculating about my sex life, sexuality etc, to innuendo, i.e. IT guy telling me he'd come to "interfere with my position", also sexually explicit stuff Said directly to me. Standing very closely behind me, not touching but if I even swayed a bit without moving my feet I'd have touched them. This is just off the top of my head, but it happeneded all the time. And it was deliberate, my defence mechanism was to repeat what they said very loudly, with a disgusted look on my face, they would get flustered at everyone staring and sniggering at them and would call me a hard faced b***h etc. It was always the same people, most men were not like this, but i moved around a lot in my job, and no matter where I worked there were always a few.
> 
> I second think men and am aware of men in a way that is different to how I view women, no doubt a product of my early adult life.


Hopefully, with all that is happening now the type of behaviour you describe will no longer be shrugged off and people will be much more likely to fear repercussions and moderate their behaviour accordingly.

Likewise, anybody feeling threatened or upset by someone's behaviour will feel able to do something about it and get support from management, etc.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> Well you come up seven tv programs where there is a big age difference then, and that's off the top of your head without thinking. Frankly I can't come up with one, probably could with a bit of thought though.
> 
> Thought of one May To December, but the whole point of the show was the age difference.


You beat me to it, I was going to say May to December


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

is this a side effect? are men now so intimidated that they would rather stand by and watch a woman die than possibly be branded a pervert?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/hea...uffering-heart-attack-in-public-a3688976.html


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2017)

Biffo said:


> I worked in a mostly male environment, and lived alone in my late teens early twenties, the article was pretty accurate for me and was pretty much how I lived. I'm not terrified of men, I don't think they are all predators, most people are decent. I didn't experience any physical harassment, but the verbal harassment was pretty much constant. It didn't make me live in terror but it made me very guarded, and I did watch how friendly I was.
> 
> It ranged from loud conversations, so not directly to me but in my hearing, speculating about my sex life, sexuality etc, to innuendo, i.e. IT guy telling me he'd come to "interfere with my position", also sexually explicit stuff Said directly to me. Standing very closely behind me, not touching but if I even swayed a bit without moving my feet I'd have touched them. This is just off the top of my head, but it happeneded all the time. And it was deliberate, my defence mechanism was to repeat what they said very loudly, with a disgusted look on my face, they would get flustered at everyone staring and sniggering at them and would call me a hard faced b***h etc. It was always the same people, most men were not like this, but i moved around a lot in my job, and no matter where I worked there were always a few.
> 
> I second think men and am aware of men in a way that is different to how I view women, no doubt a product of my early adult life.





AmyRedd said:


> I wouldn't say I live in fear but I'm certainly wary. I'm aware the majority of the male population is bigger, stronger and maybe faster than I am.
> 
> Should I be thinking that way? Probably not. I mean I'm not constantly thinking about it etc and I'm happy to have a friendly chat with the bloke sat next to me on the train. But if I get "those vibes" from someone then I start to think of how to get out of a situation should it arise. I have to visit clients houses on my own for my job and there's been a few times I've hesitated going into a mans house... I also used to work on my own in a local pub and there's been times I've had to contact my boss or OH and ask them to come in because I've felt uncomfortable about certain clientele. I've been grabbed outside the same pub while I was working by a man who didn't see it as anything other than a bit of "banter". Nothing awful has ever happened to be but enough to make me and many of my friends very wary... all the time...


In some ways my experiences have been on two extremes. As a barn brat, I worked side by side with men on equal terms and never felt uncomfortable around my peers who were men. And because so much of what we did was physical, I think on a subconscious level, I never felt 'weaker' than men or more physically vulnerable. 
But to get to that farm, I had to ride a subway, and on the subway, even in my filthy jeans, sweaty t-shirt, and shit covered boots, there would be weirdos on the subway who would sit in the seat next to me on an empty train. There were the constant cat calls walking to the train station and back. And no, it's not flattering to hear someone whistle to you about how they'd like a piece of that. It's creepy and weird, and when you're a young girl by yourself it creates a callous that stays with you.


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## KittenEevee (May 19, 2017)

I am wary, I am fearful. I have had two horrific experiences in the past which have made me fearful of walking around on my own, during the day and at night. I carry a personal alarm, spray in my hand when I am walking around. Id rather try keep myself safe than something happen again. Tonight I finish work at 1030pm and I've asked my partner to pick me up or meet me at the bus stop so we can walk home together. Little things like that make me feel safer.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MiffyMoo said:


> You beat me to it, I was going to say May to December


Can you think of any others because I can't?

Even programs like Hart to Hart where you might expect the millionaire lead character to have a younger wife didn't. I think it's a good example of people assuming things are one way when in reality the opposite is true.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> In some ways my experiences have been on two extremes. As a barn brat, I worked side by side with men on equal terms and never felt uncomfortable around my peers who were men. And because so much of what we did was physical, I think on a subconscious level, I never felt 'weaker' than men or more physically vulnerable.
> But to get to that farm, I had to ride a subway, and on the subway, even in my filthy jeans, sweaty t-shirt, and shit covered boots, there would be weirdos on the subway who would sit in the seat next to me on an empty train. There were the constant cat calls walking to the train station and back. And no, it's not flattering to hear someone whistle to you about how they'd like a piece of that. It's creepy and weird, and when you're a young girl by yourself it creates a callous that stays with you.


Oh the London Underground at rush hour used to be dreadful for some disgusting men having a grope ..... I used to just tell them very loudly to keep their hands to themselves but was shocked to hear a friend who was travelling with me into work one day had been groped throughout the whole journey but felt too embarrassed to say anything even to me who was with her ....it shouldn't be her who was embarrassed but the lowlife who was touching her.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2017)

KittenEevee said:


> I am wary, I am fearful. I have had two horrific experiences in the past which have made me fearful of walking around on my own, during the day and at night. I carry a personal alarm, spray in my hand when I am walking around. Id rather try keep myself safe than something happen again. Tonight I finish work at 1030pm and I've asked my partner to pick me up or meet me at the bus stop so we can walk home together. Little things like that make me feel safer.


I'm so sorry 
I have personal friends who like you, don't feel safe much of the time. It's a valid, legitimate fear. I hate hearing people brush it off, or even comments on this thread about "who are these terrified women?" as if you don't have a right to feel the very real fear you do 

Who are these terrified women? They're the women like you who have survived horrific experiences and despite their fear get on with life. Good for you. You have my respect.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

I certainly haven't said there aren't any terrified women out there. And if my comment did come across like i was invalidating others experiences then I can only apologise. I'm not the best at wording these things. And I'm sorry for the women who have gone through this, no one should feel unsafe going about their daily lives


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

dorrit said:


> is this a side effect? are men now so intimidated that they would rather stand by and watch a woman die than possibly be branded a pervert?
> 
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/hea...uffering-heart-attack-in-public-a3688976.html


well, thats a really depressing statistic. TBH if someone is giving me CPR to save my life I really couldnt care less if they get in an accidental grope!

Im also careful about going out at night. Lots of drunks round here and it can be quite scary. Although the 2 murders in my immeadiate area (one at the end of my road and the other outside my work) were both teenage boys so Im not scared of being attacked coz Im a woman....Im just straight out scared of being attacked!:Shy


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Oh the London Underground at rush hour used to be dreadful for some disgusting men having a grope ..... I used to just tell them very loudly to keep their hands to themselves but was shocked to hear a friend who was travelling with me into work one day had been groped throughout the whole journey but felt too embarrassed to say anything even to me who was with her ....it shouldn't be her who was embarrassed but the lowlife who was touching her.


That sounds similar to an experience a friend & I had at Global Gathering one year, I had a guy get rather handsy, first time I thought it was just a brush past my bum but then the hands came back & stayed, so I turned round & bawled him out in the D&B tent.

That put an end to that!

Went outside for a breather about half an hour later & my friend told me she'd been groped as well, only she hadn't said anything, so he'd got cocky & by the time she felt she could move away he'd had his hand in her knickers, she was uncomfortable but laughed it off, I was incensed on her behalf though, I thought it was revolting.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Oh the London Underground at rush hour used to be dreadful for some disgusting men having a grope ..... I used to just tell them very loudly to keep their hands to themselves but was shocked to hear a friend who was travelling with me into work one day had been groped throughout the whole journey but felt too embarrassed to say anything even to me who was with her ....it shouldn't be her who was embarrassed but the lowlife who was touching her.


I remember hearing a story years ago about an underground journey where a woman in the carriage had suddenly put her hand up in the air holding the hand of the guy in a suit standing behind her. As the whole carriage turned to look, she shouted out "Does anybody own this? I just found it on my bottom!"


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

I work in a very male dominated workplace, most of my jobs have been that way. Yes, I’ve encountered sexism and some creepy men, but I’m fortunate to have never been anything more than a bit creeped out or more wary than normal. I really feel for those who have had horrible experiences, it shouldn’t happen and I look forward to the day when it disappears and men are just men. No weirdness, no fear, no having to justify wearing your favourite little skirt because it might be interpreted the “wrong way”. Just men being respectful human beings. And women being respectful human beings. Just respectful human beings across the board.

I didn’t like the tone of the article, I won’t lie; it felt a bit too sensationalist for my tastes. But it’s a worthwhile share, and it does make some good points. I don’t personally live in a world where I constantly have to watch what I say or do, or feel unsafe walking anywhere...but I get that there are people out there who do. And that sucks.

I didn’t realise how endemic the issue was in the celebrity industry, and I’m glad people are speaking out; I hope more people speak out so that the behaviour stops being normal, or something you should accept if you want to make it in Hollywood.


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## sesmo (Mar 6, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> Oh the London Underground at rush hour used to be dreadful for some disgusting men having a grope ..... I used to just tell them very loudly to keep their hands to themselves but was shocked to hear a friend who was travelling with me into work one day had been groped throughout the whole journey but felt too embarrassed to say anything even to me who was with her ....it shouldn't be her who was embarrassed but the lowlife who was touching her.


Eurgh! I used to commute by tube in London and at least twice per week either I or my house mate were groped. Difficult to do much about it when you're squashed in like sardines. Now I think we'd be more vocal, whereas we weren't when it happened in our early twenties.

A while back I was discussing personal safety with my OH. He thinks nothing of walking back from the nearest metro station to his house late at night. I wouldn't be happy about it and he couldn't understand why. There's 2 pubs and a social club between the two, lots of dark alley ways just off the road and a big piece of open ground off to the side. It's as alien for him to start looking at potential pit falls between the station and home as it is for me to not think about such things.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I'm so sorry
> I have personal friends who like you, don't feel safe much of the time. It's a valid, legitimate fear. I hate hearing people brush it off, or even comments on this thread about "who are these terrified women?" as if you don't have a right to feel the very real fear you do
> 
> Who are these terrified women? They're the women like you who have survived horrific experiences and despite their fear get on with life. Good for you. You have my respect.


I have not said there were no terrified women, just that she exaggerates the fact that all women are scared all the time. Which we are not.

It may be different for people living in overcrowded cities where you have to mingle more with others.

Funnily enough, even though there is a very small chance of it happening I am more worried about family or friends being on a night out or out on their own and getting mugged. Or saying the wrong thing to someone, said person taking offense and attacking them. My father was a bus driver and once was knifed in the neck by someone for no reason, and my brother in law got threatened by some youths with knives for asking them to turn their music down. I suppose we all have fears shaped by our experiences.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> That sounds similar to an experience a friend & I had at Global Gathering one year, I had a guy get rather handsy, first time I thought it was just a brush past my bum but then the hands came back & stayed, so I turned round & bawled him out in the D&B tent.
> 
> That put an end to that!
> 
> Went outside for a breather about half an hour later & my friend told me she'd been groped as well, only she hadn't said anything, so he'd got cocky & by the time she felt she could move away he'd had his hand in her knickers, she was uncomfortable but laughed it off, I was incensed on her behalf though, I thought it was revolting.


That's disgusting,what is wrong with some men??!


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## KittenEevee (May 19, 2017)

I have had an experience where I was walking home and there was someone following me, he came really close to me and was trying to pull down my tights and skirt, this was in public on a bridge. I managed to push him away and I screamed at him, he then walked away and I was crying and traumatised. People were walking past and nobody did anything.
Really disgusting, I wish I had reported him because I guess it would of been on cctv.
I dont get what goes through someones mind to do that. Its horrible and although it happened years ago, its still left me fearful.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

ouesi said:


> I think @picaresque sums it up best.
> 
> Even when allegations prove to be true, or the man is taped bragging about assaulting women without their consent and admits to the behavior, he gets elected president. Forgive my cynicism about false allegations ruining lives. As a societal collective, we're still excusing this behavior far more than we're condemning it.
> 
> ...


^^ This ^^


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

I’ve ‘liked’ many posts on this thread, not because I like, in any way, the horrible experiences some of you (like me) have had, but in affirmation of your views and experiences. 

I am almost 60 and know a huge number of women through both personal and professional connections. I do not know a SINGLE ONE who has not experienced some level of sexual abuse/assault. It first happened to me aged 12, and continues to this day, despite me being a woman not to be messed with! It even happens when I’m wearing my clerical collar!!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> I do not know a SINGLE ONE who has not experienced some level of sexual abuse/assault.


I am actually horrified now to realiese that this is probably true! I can think of several gropes and one really scary incident when I was younger and know many friends who have experienced stuff too.
It can only be a good thing that these things are now coming to light.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Im a man who has been married 28 years, ive had 100's of women



in my taxi



paying me



from A to B...


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> Are you saying that women don't molest or grope men ?


Still waiting


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

'


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I hate threads like this and always read these broad swipes with horror. I've worked in bars and in printing factories where the page 3 calendar was up on most walls but I don't recall anything beyond banter. Never anything was given out that couldn't be given back on a shop floor. When it crossed a line, someone would deal with it through a verbal slap. When I was harassed it was by a well educated academic in the offices of th same place who had a reputation but senior staff refused to take it any further as he was a 'name'. The other person was a Casanova and still is and ironically now a director! I don't think its media and Benny Hill that guide people but networks, hierarchy and that still happens. 

Btw May to December wife here and my husband is probably the man most unlikely to grope or use the word crumpet apart from in the context of food...


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

MollySmith said:


> Btw May to December wife here and my husband is probably the man most unlikely to grope or use the word crumpet apart from in the context of food...


OMG! just remembered I have crumpets in the freezer!!:Woot
(sorry, Im hungry.....:Shy)


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

The cruelest


catz4m8z said:


> OMG! just remembered I have crumpets in the freezer!!:Woot
> (sorry, Im hungry.....:Shy)


You've reminded me to get my baps out (of my freezer)


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-men-exploiting-power?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

I have had some experiences, probably not that bad compared to others but some of them happened when I was in high school around the age of 15. There was a boy in my year who would grope me incessantly, he would slap my bum, grab my boobs, private parts. One time he even broke my underwear, it was rather humiliating for me. I don't know why I didn't say anything at first about it to a teacher but I was rather naive and just resorted to shouting/swearing at him. I eventually spoke up and he was taken out of my class but that's all that happened.

Have also been groped various other times at college, on public transport, on nights out. I have also been flashed once. Had some absolutely vile things said to me by complete strangers. The problem is though if I was to ask these men who have groped me or said vile things to me, 99% of the time the reply would probably be that they were ''just joking'' and that's how they justify it in their head.

I also don't like the whole 'well you should have been around in the 60's or back in my day, was much worse then.... Like it somehow excuses their behaviour. This all happened to me within the last decade.

Despite that though I don't ever feel scared to go out alone or walk home alone or feel I need to hide away because I'm a female, especially as I am getting older.

I feel like the stuff that has been coming to light in the press recently is only a good thing as I feel it gives others the strength to speak up and stops these awful human beings from being able to commit the horrific acts they have been.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

ouesi said:


> I'm so sorry
> I have personal friends who like you, don't feel safe much of the time. It's a valid, legitimate fear. I hate hearing people brush it off, or even comments on this thread about "who are these terrified women?" as if you don't have a right to feel the very real fear you do
> 
> Who are these terrified women? They're the women like you who have survived horrific experiences and despite their fear get on with life. Good for you. You have my respect.


No-one is 'brushing it off'. The problem with the article is that it implies that _every single woman_ is walking around in fear of men. Which is clearly not true.

I'm sorry for people who have had bad experiences, but it doesn't give the person writing that article to a) tar every man with the same brush, b) imply that men are now getting a taste of what women constantly have to go through when clearly there are men that have been there, and c) assume every woman is hiding in the house scared to venture outside in case men (including one's they supposedly trust) abuse them in some way.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Everytime you see the news there is another man named...makes you wonder if there are going to be any actors or politicians left!:Wideyed


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I must be extremely lucky, if this sort of thing is occurring with such regularity, that women are walking around genuinely afraid
I'm 40 - lived in and around London most of my life, worked in bars, in supermarkets, been to pubs and clubs - even been drunk, walked the dog alone in the dark, used public transport alone, worked in a big organisation for 14 years and not once have I ever been inappropriately touched by a man, or put into a situation I felt I could not handle with ease and without lasting effect (been flashed etc). Maybe i know the right things to say to unwanted attention, maybe I shrug things like that off, maybe I'm just not as emotional as some.......

I can honestly say I don't think any of my close friends have either - I mean if wolf whistling etc deeply offends (and we all draw our own lines on what offends and what doesn't) you then maybe that's why some women are so scared.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Lexiedhb said:


> I must be extremely lucky, if this sort of thing is occurring with such regularity, that women are walking around genuinely afraid
> I'm 40 - lived in and around London most of my life, worked in bars, in supermarkets, been to pubs and clubs - even been drunk, walked the dog alone in the dark, used public transport alone, worked in a big organisation for 14 years and not once have I ever been inappropriately touched by a man, or put into a situation I felt I could not handle with ease and without lasting effect (been flashed etc). Maybe i know the right things to say to unwanted attention, maybe I shrug things like that off, maybe I'm just not as emotional as some.......
> 
> I can honestly say I don't think any of my close friends have either - I mean if wold whistling etc deeply offends (and we all draw our own lines on what offends and what doesn't) you then maybe that's why some women are so scared.


Some people like to be victims, some people like to jump on bandwagons as #metoo has proved, some people just lie.

The vast majority of women, like you, get on with life untroubled. Just as the vast majority of men get on with life without causing trouble. Shame that gets ignored and pushed to one side at the moment.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Dr Pepper said:


> Some people like to be victims, some people like to jump on bandwagons as #metoo has proved, some people just lie.


#metoo hasn't proved anything except that sexual harassment was and still is rife.


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## KittenEevee (May 19, 2017)

Deleted


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> #metoo hasn't proved anything except that sexual harassment was and still is rife.


What it has done it trivialise genuine harassment.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Royoyo said:


> Have also been groped various other times at college, on public transport, on nights out. I have also been flashed once. Had some absolutely vile things said to me by complete strangers. *The problem is though if I was to ask these men who have groped me or said vile things to me, 99% of the time the reply would probably be that they were ''just joking'' and that's how they justify it in their head*


You know, the more I consider this, the more I start to think that there is more than a partial parallel between adult sexual harrassment patterns and the way paedophiles groom children to accept abuse (no, I'm not calling all adults paedophiles!). As in things starts out seemingly small and innocuous and excuseable, and gradually build until increasingly over behaviours are accepted.

The main difference, I suppose, is that those behaviours are considered socially acceptable towards adults to a point far beyond that which any decent person would accept it towards a child.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> What it has done it trivialise genuine harassment.


OR, perhaps, prove that 'genuine harrassment' is far more widespread than many would like to admit...


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Jesthar said:


> OR, perhaps, prove that 'genuine harrassment' is far more widespread than many would like to admit...


Probably depends on what you consider harassment. One of my wife's bosses would put his arm round her shoulder when chatting, he did it with everyone male and female, certainly nothing sexual or harassing about it. A thirteen year old going in for a kiss in the playground isn't harassment it's growing up. Asking a work college out for a drink isn't harassing it's how boy meets girl.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2017)

MilleD said:


> No-one is 'brushing it off'. The problem with the article is that it implies that _every single woman_ is walking around in fear of men. Which is clearly not true.
> 
> I'm sorry for people who have had bad experiences, but it doesn't give the person writing that article to a) tar every man with the same brush, b) imply that men are now getting a taste of what women constantly have to go through when clearly there are men that have been there, and c) assume every woman is hiding in the house scared to venture outside in case men (including one's they supposedly trust) abuse them in some way.


Actually, the article isn't saying that at all. Here is what it says:
"if you're feeling vigilant and wary of the opposite sex, and are constantly monitoring your relationships with them in the workplace, on public transport, on the street - you're getting an insight into what women feel like."
Vigilant, wary, and monitoring your relationships (and behavior as mentioned later on) does not equal hiding in the house scared to venture outside in case men abuse them in some way. It's simply being vigilant and careful.
I think the article hit a nerve with many of us, and we're having a visceral reaction, reading more in to it than what was actually said.

All the author is saying is that women have always had to be "careful." In fact, we're told explicitly and implicitly that we have to behave a certain way in order to avoid being abused. Same thing the that running article told me, take precautions, that's something all women *should* do if they have common sense. That's the societal narrative - women, be wary, walk in well-lit areas, have a buddy, take self-defense classes, don't wear a ponytail (yes, that is a thing - ponytails apparently make you easier to grab).

The problem is, the underlying narrative behind the seemingly innocent message of "just be careful" is that should a woman be assaulted, there will always be the question of what part of her behavior contributed to the attack. We all shake our heads sadly at the passed out drunk woman who was raped, and then turn and tell our daughters not to drink irresponsibly because look what might happen, without ever stopping to consider that if a man finds anything remotely arousing or alluring about a woman who is so inebriated that she can't even respond to him, is in itself seriously and disturbingly messed up.

Like the article @MollySmith posted above. Those who are responsible for abusive behavior are the abusers, not the victims. So yes, if you are a man who is teetering on the fence of appropriate and inappropriate behavior, YOU should feel responsible for YOUR behavior. Some men are now feeling the weight of being responsible for their behavior, something women have never had the luxury of forgetting - that their behavior has consequences.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Probably depends on what you consider harassment. One of my wife's bosses would put his arm round her shoulder when chatting, he did it with everyone male and female, certainly nothing sexual or harassing about it. A thirteen year old going in for a kiss in the playground isn't harassment it's growing up. Asking a work college out for a drink isn't harassing it's how boy meets girl.


All those things depend on context. Some people might not like the arm round their shoulder, and I would expect the boss to refrain from doing it if asked. A thirteen year old going on for a kiss in a playground could be considered harrassment if the receiving party was coerced (and no, I don't mean silly things like kiss chase etc., I mean _really _didn't want to be kissed but was forced into it). Asking a work colleague out for a drink could stray into harrassment territory if the asker is persistent, asks aggressively and/or won't take no for an answer.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

ouesi said:


> Actually, the article isn't saying that at all. Here is what it says:
> "if you're feeling vigilant and wary of the opposite sex, and are constantly monitoring your relationships with them in the workplace, on public transport, on the street - you're getting an insight into what women feel like."
> Vigilant, wary, and monitoring your relationships (and behavior as mentioned later on) does not equal hiding in the house scared to venture outside in case men abuse them in some way. It's simply being vigilant and careful.
> I think the article hit a nerve with many of us, and we're having a visceral reaction, reading more in to it than what was actually said.
> ...


Not all women are vigilant, wary or constantly monitoring their relationships though, thats what me and I think a few others are trying to say. I am wary of being out at dark, but that's just because I realise I am more vulnerable (or at least that's how I feel). Not because I am wary of men. Again I realise some women feel this way. I don't necessarily disagree with the message in the article that women need to be careful, like you said it's always been that way. I just don't like the implication of all women feel this way. I really dont mean to say any of this to lessen the impact of other womens experiences. I think we are both reading into it differently as well

I agree that the men doing these horrible things need to be blamed and their behaviour looked at, victim blaming is not ok.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Jesthar said:


> All those things depend on context. Some people might not like the arm round their shoulder, and I would expect the boss to refrain from doing it if asked. A thirteen year old going on for a kiss in a playground could be considered harrassment if the receiving party was coerced (and no, I don't mean silly things like kiss chase etc., I mean _really _didn't want to be kissed but was forced into it). Asking a work colleague out for a drink could stray into harrassment territory if the asker is persistent, asks aggressively and/or won't take no for an answer.


Absolutely, it's down to the intent of the one being accused of harassment. But for those three examples there are also the totally innocent cases as well. That's where the #metoo fails as it's that innocent arm around a shoulder thirty years ago that you are now being told was (could have been) harassment.

We could actually argue that sexual harassment is actually on the decrease as the majority of the high profile cases go back decades. How many are Mr X tried it on with me yesterday/last week/this year?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Absolutely, it's down to the intent of the one being accused of harassment. But for those three examples there are also the totally innocent cases as well. That's where the #metoo fails as* it's that innocent arm around a shoulder thirty years ago that you are now being told was (could have been) harassment*.
> 
> We could actually argue that sexual harassment is actually on the decrease as the majority of the high profile cases go back decades. How many are Mr X tried it on with me yesterday/last week/this year?


Are you seriously trying to imply metoo consists mainly of those who haven't experienced/aren't experiencing what you would classify as genuine harrassment? Or are you saying that even a small number of those respondees _you_ consider oversensitive renders the whole thing invalid?

As to high profile cases, do you KNOW how hard it is for a victim to report such things? Especially as they know the powerful usually hold all the cards in these cases. I know Trump has already been mentioned a few times, but he's a prime example of what you can get away with if you have money and power...


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Boxerluver30 said:


> Not all women are vigilant, wary or constantly monitoring their relationships though, thats what me and I think a few others are trying to say. I am wary of being out at dark, but that's just because I realise I am more vulnerable (or at least that's how I feel). Not because I am wary of men. Again I realise some women feel this way. I don't necessarily disagree with the message in the article that women need to be careful, like you said it's always been that way. I just don't like the implication of all women feel this way. I really dont mean to say any of this to lessen the impact of other womens experiences. I think we are both reading into it differently as well
> 
> I agree that the men doing these horrible things need to be blamed and their behaviour looked at, victim blaming is not ok.


Absolutely. "Women" implies ALL women, and that certainly isn't my experience.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Vigilant, wary, and monitoring your relationships (and behavior as mentioned later on) does not equal hiding in the house scared to venture outside in case men abuse them in some way. It's simply being vigilant and careful.


Men are vigilant, wary and monitoring all the time. Remember reading about a woman who dressed and made themselves up as a man and couldn't believe how paranoid it made her. Inability to look someone in the eye as it's counted as a challenge etc.



> I think the article hit a nerve with many of us, and we're having a visceral reaction, reading more in to it than what was actually said.


It's the environment of the witch hunt.



> The problem is, the underlying narrative behind the seemingly innocent message of "just be careful" is that should a woman be assaulted, there will always be the question of what part of her behavior contributed to the attack. We all shake our heads sadly at the passed out drunk woman who was raped, and then turn and tell our daughters not to drink irresponsibly because look what might happen, without ever stopping to consider that if a man finds anything remotely arousing or alluring about a woman who is so inebriated that she can't even respond to him, is in itself seriously and disturbingly messed up.


Common sense should not be ignored. The problem is when lack of it is used as an excuse by criminals and accepted as reasoning. Subtle but important difference. Crime should be labelled as a crime but crime prevention needs to be labelled as common sense. We do not and will not live in a perfect world.



> Like the article @MollySmith posted above. Those who are responsible for abusive behavior are the abusers, not the victims. So yes, if you are a man who is teetering on the fence of appropriate and inappropriate behavior, YOU should feel responsible for YOUR behavior. Some men are now feeling the weight of being responsible for their behavior, something women have never had the luxury of forgetting - that their behavior has consequences.


Teetering on the fence.. no PEOPLE are always responsible for THEIR behaviour. Had to laugh at the idea that women have never had the luxury of forgetting. Okay, less likely to do it singly but get a group of women together... a fact that people like yourself conveniently ignore. What's worse I wonder, sexual assault by someone alone or by a group egging each other along? Not saying groups do not happen against both men and women. How many women are looking at their own behaviour I wonder while making men the demons.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> Are you seriously trying to imply metoo consists mainly of those who haven't experienced/aren't experiencing what you would classify as genuine harrassment? Or are you saying that even a small number of those respondees _you_ consider oversensitive renders the whole thing invalid?
> 
> As to high profile cases, do you KNOW how hard it is for a victim to report such things? Especially as they know the powerful usually hold all the cards in these cases. I know Trump has already been mentioned a few times, but he's a prime example of what you can get away with if you have money and power...


My experience of the metoo thing was people relaying experiences that at worst made them feel uncomfortable, not that they felt "abused" enough to report it to authorities at the time it happened, although maybe if they had the "abusers" would have had to consider their inappropriate behaviour at an earlier stage


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> My experience of the metoo thing was people relaying experiences that at worst made them feel uncomfortable, not that they felt "abused" enough to report it to authorities at the time it happened, although maybe if they had the "abusers" would have had to consider their inappropriate behaviour at an earlier stage


My experience as well. Being asked out is one example ignored when mentioned previously. If that is not trivialising things what is?



Jesthar said:


> As to high profile cases, do you KNOW how hard it is for a victim to report such things? Especially as they know the powerful usually hold all the cards in these cases. I know Trump has already been mentioned a few times, but he's a prime example of what you can get away with if you have money and power...


Yet accusations and assumption of guilt based only on word ignoring innocent until proven guilty. Not the way to go about providing a solution is it? No easy answer on how to support victims whilst ensuring the guilty are punished. It's needs a cultural change but making it them vs us is not the way to do it.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> My experience of the metoo thing was people relaying experiences that at worst made them feel uncomfortable, not that they felt "abused" enough to report it to authorities at the time it happened, although maybe if they had the "abusers" would have had to consider their inappropriate behaviour at an earlier stage


To a point. I know people who have been seriously assaulted but will never report it for various reasons, not the least of which is that they don't want to face the criticism and mudslinging that will invariably come their way for not being the picture perfect virgin victim. But yes, for most people meetoo was (thankfully) about highlighting the widespread nature of low level harrassing behaviours they experience that society as a whole tends to excuse as 'just part of life' if anyone says something about it - and pointing out that maybe they shouldn't be accepted as such any more.



Goblin said:


> My experience as well. Being asked out is one example ignored when mentioned previously. If that is not trivialising things what is?


Again, it depends on context. If the asking out is persistent/aggressive/intimidating, and/or rejection results in verbal abuse/namecalling/other forms of persecution, should that be acceptable? I once got chased round a car park by a very persistent taxi driver who did not want to accept I didn't fancy going out for a drink with him. I spoke to him politely, put up with some fairly lewd advances, never raised my voice or was rude, respectfully declined his offers and walked away multiple times only to have him drive after me - is that acceptable to you? Or because I managed to handle the situation and didn't feel it worth reporting to anyone, does it not count as harrassment?



Goblin said:


> Yet accusations and assumption of guilt based only on word ignoring innocent until proven guilty. Not the way to go about providing a solution is it? No easy answer on how to support victims whilst ensuring the guilty are punished. It's needs a cultural change but making it them vs us is not the way to do it.


Yes, it does need a cultural change. The thing is, no woman I know wants to make it 'them v us' (not that I'm denying there are people like that out there) - but that doesn't change the fact that it is women who are on the receiving end of the vast majority of sexually harrassing behaviour, and that any time the issue is raised the main outcome seems to be an ever growing list of suggestions as to what women should do about it and how they should conduct themselves in order to reduce the risk of become victims. Then out comes the 'false accusations ruin lives' line (and I agree, and suggest that making a false accusation should carry a similar sentance to the one usually handed down for the offence which was falsely accused), despite evidence that these only make up a tiny fraction of cases. And so on, until the whole thing ineviably descends into the us v them territory most people want to avoid, whereas what was hoped for was a working together to make everyone safer.

Generally speaking, the changes desired aren't massive, but because they are so culturally engrained they are hard to alter. Nobody (well, almost nobody - there are always going to be office Mood Hoovers, annoyingly) wants to kill the office banter (you should have heard a meeting I was in yesterday!) or genuine joking between friends, but people should also respect that some people have different limits to others, and should make an effort to tone it down if requested. Taking no for an answer with good grace, or responding to a 'please don't do X, it makes me feel uncomfortable' with a 'sorry' and respect is always appreciated. Stepping in if you can see someone's behaviour is making someone else uncomfortable. And yes, this does apply both ways. Harassment is harrassment, no matter who the victim.

Anyway, I apologise if I've seemed a bit us v them, as that is never my intent. I've seen whataboutery derail so many of this type of discussion, and it does leave me a bit jaded sometimes.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> To a point. I know people who have been seriously assaulted but will never report it for various reasons, not the least of which is that they don't want to face the criticism and mudslinging that will invariably come their way for not being the picture perfect virgin victim. But yes, for most people meetoo was (thankfully) about highlighting the widespread nature of low level harrassing behaviours they experience that society as a whole tends to excuse as 'just part of life' if anyone says something about it - and pointing out that maybe they shouldn't be accepted as such any more.
> 
> Again, it depends on context. If the asking out is persistent/aggressive/intimidating, and/or rejection results in verbal abuse/namecalling/other forms of persecution, should that be acceptable? I once got chased round a car park by a very persistent taxi driver who did not want to accept I didn't fancy going out for a drink with him. I spoke to him politely, put up with some fairly lewd advances, never raised my voice or was rude, respectfully declined his offers and walked away multiple times only to have him drive after me - is that acceptable to you? Or because I managed to handle the situation and didn't feel it worth reporting to anyone, does it not count as harrassment?
> 
> ...


Nope, not " to a point" - that was my entire experience of the metoo thing ,I imagine those seriously abused would have been scared to take part, in something like that. When I asked those involved their reasons behind not reporting things had 0% to do with not being "a picture perfect victim" and more to do with them believing a) the nature of said offence was not serious enough to warrant reporting b) it didn't affect them beyond the few seconds or minutes that the offence happened in.
I think this will always be on a case by case basis, as what I find offensive, harassment, abuse, inappropriate another may not ( on the lower end of the scale), although of course everyone should have enough manners to recognise ( especially if told) that their behaviour is making someone uncomfortable. I do also believe we have a responsibility to remove ourselves from situations that make us uncomfortable too..... Move away from that one person who sits next to you on a train, don't end up alone in the store cupboard with that one colleague who makes you cringe a bit.... Etc


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Nope, not " to a point" - that was my entire experience of the metoo thing ,*I imagine those seriously abused would have been scared to take part, in something like that*. When I asked those involved their reasons behind not reporting things had 0% to do with not being "a picture perfect victim" and more to do with them believing a) the nature of said offence was not serious enough to warrant reporting b) it didn't affect them beyond the few seconds or minutes that the offence happened in.


Not at all. Just amongst people I know and took part some of them are survivors of serious assaults.


Lexiedhb said:


> I think this will always be on a case by case basis, as what I find offensive, harassment, abuse, inappropriate another may not ( on the lower end of the scale), although of course everyone should have enough manners to recognise ( especially if told) that their behaviour is making someone uncomfortable. I do also believe we have a responsibility to remove ourselves from situations that make us uncomfortable too..... Move away from that one person who sits next to you on a train, don't end up alone in the store cupboard with that one colleague who makes you cringe a bit.... Etc


That's just it, though - taking responsibility is one thing, but why should it be perceived as the victims fault if for some reason they don't manage to evade unwanted attentions? Why should it even be considered their job to successfully evade unwanted attentions in the first place - yes, that appears to be what society expects a lot of the time, but why should it be? Would it not be fairer to consider it the job of the assaulter to not assault people?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> Not at all. Just amongst people I know and took part some of them are survivors of serious assaults.
> 
> That's just it, though - taking responsibility is one thing, but why should it be perceived as the victims fault if for some reason they don't manage to evade unwanted attentions? Why should it even be considered their job to successfully evade unwanted attentions in the first place - yes, that appears to be what society expects a lot of the time, but why should it be? Would it not be fairer to consider it the job of the assaulter to not assault people?


But again it's a minefield. I'm not to know what type of personality you have, how offensive you will find my arm round your shoulders, a wolf whistle, a sexual joke, different types of humour, banter( I remember an enormous row on another forum because a girl was utterly outraged, that a team of builders had wolf whistled and made a comment about her butt, I believe she reported them to the police - way ott imo, but she can't help how she felt) etc. So at the lower end, and only at the lower end of the scale it's six of one half a dozen of the other. If being in your presence, because of your behaviour makes me uncomfortable, then yes I see it as partly my responsibility to remove myself. That's not to say it's the victims fault ever, as much of the time it's very difficult to remove oneself.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> But again it's a minefield. I'm not to know what type of personality you have, how offensive you will find my arm round your shoulders, a wolf whistle, a sexual joke, different types of humour, banter( I remember an enormous row on another forum because a girl was utterly outraged, that a team of builders had wolf whistled and made a comment about her butt, I believe she reported them to the police - way ott imo, but she can't help how she felt) etc. So at the lower end, and only at the lower end of the scale it's six of one half a dozen of the other. If being in your presence, because of your behaviour makes me uncomfortable, then yes I see it as partly my responsibility to remove myself. That's not to say it's the victims fault ever, as much of the time it's very difficult to remove oneself.


Having worked on several building sites and a whole career spent around tradesmen, I would absolutely report colleagues (to their employer, not the police mind..) I caught wolf whistling at women walking past in the street. If it was my site, I would kick them off & send them home myself. This isnt the '70s.

The "hecklers" are at work, and people walking past are members of the public - they are not there to be heckled, made to feel uncomfortable or embarrassed for the entertainment of some scaffolders. Members of the public, or anyone on site for that matter, should not have to detour because of some idiots fat mouth. The public, or just random people in the area, are not part of their "banter", they dont willingly engage in conversation nor their jokes... they are walking past minding their own business.

Plus it damages the reputation of the company at hand... I work with a lot of tradies; builders, labourers, carpentry firms etc and would red mark any company that I knew accepted such behaviour, and if they were already on the books I would absolutely have the offenders kicked off site.

I dont care about their pin-up calenders, or private conversations, and I have my fair share of banter amongst the lads myself - but as soon as they are targetting other people directly a line is crossed. They are not animals, they have the ability to control themselves and their mouths. They are not stupid people, they know full well the difference between the social cues between people they can joke with and those they can't, and they know the difference between Banter and Catcalling.

Luckily, on the most part, that kind of behaviour is not accepted these days. It probably still happens in smaller "one man band" type setups, but in the commercial building world - no way.

When I was about 19 I got yelled at by a scaffolder who was erecting a structure on my neighbours house (i flicked him the bird in return) - my Godfather owned the company and when he saw/heard him gave the lad a telling off... which says it all really, I doubt it was the first time he had done it and I expect had been ignored as "banter" previously. The difference was I had known his boss all my life and am a close friend to him in my own right. If you don't like a family member or close friend being catcalled, then don't do it to a random stranger and dont accept other people doing it either!


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

grumpy goby said:


> Having worked on several building sites and a whole career spent around tradesmen, I would absolutely report colleagues (to their employer, not the police mind..) I caught wolf whistling at women walking past in the street. If it was my site, I would kick them off & send them home myself. This isnt the '70s.


And yet the Diet Coke adverts that belittled men not too long ago were perfectly fine apparently.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> Having worked on several building sites and a whole career spent around tradesmen, I would absolutely report colleagues (to their employer, not the police mind..) I caught wolf whistling at women walking past in the street. If it was my site, I would kick them off & send them home myself. This isnt the '70s.
> 
> The "hecklers" are at work, and people walking past are members of the public - they are not there to be heckled, made to feel uncomfortable or embarrassed for the entertainment of some scaffolders. Members of the public, or anyone on site for that matter, should not have to detour because of some idiots fat mouth. The public, or just random people in the area, are not part of their "banter", they dont willingly engage in conversation nor their jokes... they are walking past minding their own business.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. I never said it should be seen as acceptable, but that reporting them to the police ( instead of their superiors/ the company) was ott.....
Not sure why it was seen as acceptable in the 70's either, surely folk could still control their mouths then?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I find it really distasteful that men are being named and found guilty before they've even had a chance to defend themselves. I think it's getting ridiculous actually & even though I'm a woman & should stand side by side with other women in these kind of situations, I can't help but feel very skeptical of some of the accusations.

I also don't believe women are living in terror or wary of every man they see and I think the article is actually quite insulting and insinuating women are timid and afraid of men in their everyday life, unable to protect ourselves from these everyday occurrences of harassment. OTT in my opinion.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MilleD said:


> And yet the Diet Coke adverts that belittled men not too long ago were perfectly fine apparently.


Apparently this thread title is wrong as it should be "All women are innocent and all men are sexual predators". As that is also what the original article was suggesting.

Meanwhile here in the real world........


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MilleD said:


> And yet the Diet Coke adverts that belittled men not too long ago were perfectly fine apparently.


 and another advert where old ladies cackle when a dog pulls down a young mans swimming trunks . Imagine that the other way round.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> Absolutely. I never said it should be seen as acceptable, but that reporting them to the police ( instead of their superiors/ the company) was ott.....
> Not sure why it was seen as acceptable in the 70's either, surely folk could still control their mouths then?


I wasnt alive until 84 so no idea what was and wasnt acceptable in the 70s. Just seems to be the running excuse for past misdemenours ("what was acceptable then, isnt now...oh im so confused!")


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Just gonna leave this here, then I am off forum for a week while I have visitors!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> and another advert where old ladies cackle when a dog pulls down a young mans swimming trunks . Imagine that the other way round.


I dont have to imagine....just look at one of those Lynx ads they used to do! TBF I dont think you can include adverts as being an example of anything as they really dont depict real life.
I think there are degrees of sexual harrassment and it really does depend on the circumstance too. A woman might be happy to tell off a stranger for making offensive comments but not so confident if it is there boss. Alot of these allegations are about men in a position of power where the women maybe dont feel they can stand up for themselves.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

The only difference between flirting and harassment, is wether the recipient wants the advances or not......


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> The only difference between flirting and harassment, is wether the recipient wants the advances or not......


and the only difference between charity and theft is wether the person wants to give their stuff away or not.....
but its a big difference!


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> I wasnt alive until 84 so no idea what was and wasnt acceptable in the 70s. Just seems to be the running excuse for past misdemenours ("what was acceptable then, isnt now...oh im so confused!")


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I make light of it, im a taxi driver, i think terms like "love" "flower" "petal" are demeaning so i call them all "sir"........... it raises a laugh amongst the female travellers and i point out we are all equally treated nowadays... and my eyesight isnt as good as it was. I know a few who have been slated for "inappropriate sexual remarks" but have not idea what was actually said, so its hard to judge.

My one mistake was asking 2 ladies of about 35 years old travelling to a nearby pub with front and rear access did they prefer the front or back door.... i only realised the "joke" after they sat giggling...........


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

catz4m8z said:


> and the only difference between charity and theft is wether the person wants to give their stuff away or not.....
> but its a big difference!


No, theft is taking someone's possessions without their permission.

Charity is asking if one is happy to "give their stuff away" (you said it not me!!). And if they are not their "stuff" is left alone.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> I dont have to imagine....just look at one of those Lynx ads they used to do! TBF I dont think you can include adverts as being an example of anything as they really dont depict real life.
> .


 I cant actually remember what the ad is for but its a recent one. 
To me it shows reverse sexism and I don't think its acceptable.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> No, theft is taking someone's possessions without their permission.
> 
> Charity is asking if one is happy to "give their stuff away" (you said it not me!!). And if they are not their "stuff" is left alone.


That's exactly what @catz4m8z said - that the difference between giving to charity and having your possessions stolen is that in the first instance you are OK with giving something away, and in the second instance you are not.

There is one major difference between the theft analogy and sexual harrasssment. Unlike with theft, with sexual assault the argument "the goods were on display and I really wanted them so much I couldn't resist them, so I took them without permission" is considered a defence, not a confession.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Jesthar said:


> That's exactly what @catz4m8z said - that the difference between giving to charity and having your possessions stolen is that in the first instance you are OK with giving something away, and in the second instance you are not.
> 
> There is one major difference between the theft analogy and sexual harrasssment. Unlike with theft, with sexual assault the argument "the goods were on display and I really wanted them so much I couldn't resist them, so I took them without permission" is considered a defence, not a confession.


Yes you are right I was agreeing with catz wasn't I!!!

Your second paragraph however is as much nonsense as my my reply to catz was


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Your second paragraph however is as much nonsense as my my reply to catz was


Correction, it SHOULD be. But it isn't. How many times have there been comments about assaults to the effect that 'the victim was asking for it' due to the way they were dressed, or where they were, or who they were with, or because they weren't vigilant enough. The implication of those comments is that consent to the assault was implicit due to the actions or failings of the victim, and didn't need to be given any other way.

Given that the victims that attract these kind of comments are usually women, it also perpetuates the truly insulting implication that men are primitive beasts who can't control their urges or be considered responsible for their actions given a modicum of temptation.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Not sure why it was seen as acceptable in the 70's either, surely folk could still control their mouths then?


In most cases it was seen as a compliment to get wolf whistles in the 70s


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> The only difference between flirting and harassment, is wether the recipient wants the advances or not......


I think there is more to it than that. It also depends on the methods and language one uses to flirt surely?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rona said:


> In most cases it was seen as a compliment to get wolf whistles in the 70s


I would not be offended if I got a wolf whistle now.

At 57, it would make my day if I'm honest!

Of course, if a group of builders were shouting "show us yer **ts!" I would be less enamoured.

It surely depends, but it's fairly obvious to even the least educated, enlightened person where the line is.

In the first instance, I'd probably turn and smile.

If either of those comments offended me I'd just keep walking and not acknowledge them.

I'm pretty confident and able to distinguish between the two and I accept not everybody will be but the intent is not always sinister.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> I think there is more to it than that. It also depends on the methods and language one uses to flirt surely?


I don't think it has to no. Someone might feel they are being charming, if persistent, you might feel they are a creepy letch.....


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> I would not be offended if I got a wolf whistle now.
> 
> At 57, it would make my day if I'm honest!
> 
> ...


I can understand that for some wolf whistling is 'harmless fun' & tbh it wouldn't bother me too much but ....I still have to question if this really is appropriate behavior. Some women don't like this, some feel uncomfortable, many of these 'harmless' whistles aren't just an appreciative gesture they can be aggressive & accompanied by lewd comments ... to me it's just not something that I think it acceptable.

I really don't understand why some men feel this is fine for them to continue to do knowing that it might make some women feel uncomfortable


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> I don't think it has to no. Someone might feel they are being charming, if persistent, you might feel they are a creepy letch.....


That's what I mean.....

If a guy approached me with a friendly smile, paid me a compliment and offered to buy me a drink I might be flattered but if not interested I'd decline politely and if he just shrugged and moved away, I wouldn't have an issue.

If he persisted then he could fall into the latter category.

If he came over and grabbed my arse, offered me a drink and called me frigid when I declined then obviously he would fall into the latter category immediately.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> That's what I mean.....
> 
> If a guy approached me with a friendly smile, paid me a compliment and offered to buy me a drink I might be flattered but if not interested I'd decline politely and if he just shrugged and moved away, I wouldn't have an issue.
> 
> ...


Exactly ..... I don't find that confusing at all so why do some men?!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> I can understand that for some wolf whistling is 'harmless fun' & tbh it wouldn't bother me too much but ....I still have to question if this really is appropriate behavior. Some women don't like this, some feel uncomfortable, many of these 'harmless' whistles aren't just an appreciative gesture they can be aggressive & accompanied by lewd comments ... to me it's just not something that I think it acceptable.
> 
> I really don't understand why some men feel this is fine for them to continue to do knowing that it might make some women feel uncomfortable


As I said, a quick, friendly wolf whistle is very different to aggressive, lewd comments.

I understand not all women appreciate it but a friendly wolf whistle from a chap 20 foot up some scaffolding is surely not intimidating to the majority of women?

I remember passing a very attractive chap on the street (a few years ago now  and we both glanced over our shoulders at the same time to "check each other's rear" - caught each other's eye, both laughed, winked and carried on walking.

No harm done but I guarantee we both had a spring in our step for a while, I know I did 

It will be a sad day when we can't have friendly "flanter" (friendly banter) between us anymore.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> Exactly ..... I don't find that confusing at all so why do some men?!


Because some men (and women) are ignorant - about lots of things.

The majority, I believe are considerate, decent people.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> As I said, a quick, friendly wolf whistle is very different to aggressive, lewd comments.
> 
> I understand not all women appreciate it but a friendly wolf whistle from a chap 20 foot up some scaffolding is surely not intimidating to the majority of women?
> 
> ...


I agree & what you have encountered was obviously just that .... but wolf whistle, loud enough for many other people to hear is just not on IMO, & the fact that this is now something that has caused debate & is now frowned upon (by employers as well) surely makes it something that just shouldn't be considered now.

As I said, I don't get why this can be confusing, if you have a flirt or some cheeky banter with someone at work & it's obviously being reciprocated then great, livens up a work day & is enjoyable but if the other person doesn't answer back, disengages from the conversation, etc then obviously this is something that shouldn't be continued.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I remember my mother at about 85 wolf whistling a young attractive builders bum as we drove past in the car.

Ruddy predatory women


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

catz4m8z said:


> Alot of these allegations are about men in a position of power where the women maybe dont feel they can stand up for themselves.


And the cynic in me does wonder what those women stood to gain from those powerful men at the time. I know, cynical.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree & what you have encountered was obviously just that .... but wolf whistle, loud enough for many other people to hear is just not on IMO, & the fact that this is now something that has caused debate & is now frowned upon (by employers as well) surely makes it something that just shouldn't be considered now.
> 
> As I said, I don't get why this can be confusing, if you have a flirt or some cheeky banter with someone at work & it's obviously being reciprocated then great, livens up a work day & is enjoyable but if the other person doesn't answer back, disengages from the conversation, etc then obviously this is something that shouldn't be continued.


It isn't - I think we agree on that principal.

I however, look forward to my next wolf whistle - without it offending anyone else nearby - and it will need to be loud as my hearing is not what it was


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

When i was younger and blonde I used to get toots and whistles from men in car , I didnt mind , it could be annoying sometimes .
A few of times it got a bit scary when they pulled over or drove slowly following me .

One time was funny , a few years ago , in my early fifties when my hair was still blonde and I was still slim , I was walking back from the paper shop , early News years day and some harmless young lads must have been coming home from the night before , they drove up along side me hanging out the windows and shouting , aye aye! . I turned around and they took one look at me and drove off as fast as they could . :Hilarious
That'll learn 'em


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MilleD said:


> And the cynic in me does wonder what those women stood to gain from those powerful men at the time. I know, cynical.


That's not cynical...that is yet more victim blaming...It's ok that she was assaulted because she got a lovely job/house/whatever excuse you like!

This thread saddens me if I'm honest...some of the attitudes don't surprise me sadly


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> That's not cynical...that is yet more victim blaming...It's ok that she was assaulted because she got a lovely job/house/whatever excuse you like!
> 
> This thread saddens me if I'm honest...some of the attitudes don't surprise me sadly


That's not what I'm saying at all. What if at the time, these women didn't view it as assault and it was a means to an end. Still not right, but indicative of the male oriented world they lived in. It's only when attitudes have changed that it is now viewed as 'assault' which others have already alluded to.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MilleD said:


> That's not what I'm saying at all. What if at the time, these women didn't view it as assault and it was a means to an end. Still not right, but indicative of the male oriented world they lived in. It's only when attitudes have changed that it is now viewed as 'assault' which others have already alluded to.


Kinda like the casting couch. Is it men taking advantage of women, or is it women taking advantage of men to get a part?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dr Pepper said:


> Kinda like the casting couch. Is it men taking advantage of women, or is it women taking advantage of men to get a part?


If you look at the balance of power I would have thought it was pretty clear who was taking advantage ....


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> If you look at the balance of power I would have thought it was pretty clear who was taking advantage ....


The women obviously. Ten women up for a part, one offers to do the deed in return for the role. Who's taken advantage of whom?

Ten men up for a part in the same film, hmmm how can one of them secure a part? It'd come down to talent or fee wouldn't it?

Yes it should just be the talent or fee for the women, unfortunately for them they have to compete with less talented actresses who are happy to offer the "extras" to get ahead.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> The women obviously. Ten women up for a part, one offers to do the deed in return for the role. Who's taken advantage of whom?


Its always the person in power who has taken advantage. Its kinda sick to suggest it is the womens fault TBH!
Those type of mercenary women rarely exist outside of fiction, more likely to be some poor naive girl who really believes its the only way she can have a career. That type of attitude is why these men think its ok to pressurize women.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

catz4m8z said:


> Its always the person in power who has taken advantage. .


Of course it is 

I'll leave you to it I think.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Love or his good looks?










with his ex


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Also, going back to some points made here. When I was about 17 and in one of my earlier jobs we had a change of supervisor who was a guy in his late twenties/early thirties...very, very, confident & full of himself. He started joking with me, having a laugh, and then actually started touching me...not inappropriately ( to my mind anyway ), but would jokingly 'pinch' my legs or stroke my arms etc. All at the same time as laughing about some joke he'd told etc. I remember talking to a professional at one point for other reasons, and I made a passing comment about my supervisor and his behaviour and the professional was shocked & outright told me it was harassment and that I should report him. I didn't, because in my mind it wasn't harassment and actually he left soon after or I did, can't remember which way around it was. There was a few other occasions when working I'd also had 'attention' from older guys.

I think it depends on your definition of harassment too for some my supervisor's behaviour would be....for me it wasn't. I'm not sure that automatically makes him a predator or a danger to women etc and he should be vilified ( as some of the recent accused actors etc are being ) . As already stated here, what used to pass as normal friendly banter just doesn't anymore. I'm not sure whether that's because we have genuinely changed perceptions on what is right & wrong, or whether we've just become a paranoid society who has to see the wrong in every action or comment.

Note I'm talking about harassment here, not assault which is easier to define!

Unpopular opinion of the day I'm sure.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Dogloverlou said:


> Also, going back to some points made here. When I was about 17 and in one of my earlier jobs we had a change of supervisor who was a guy in his late twenties/early thirties...very, very, confident & full of himself. He started joking with me, having a laugh, and then actually started touching me...not inappropriately ( to my mind anyway ), but would jokingly 'pinch' my legs or stroke my arms etc. All at the same time as laughing about some joke he'd told etc. I remember talking to a professional at one point for other reasons, and I made a passing comment about my supervisor and his behaviour and the professional was shocked & outright told me it was harassment and that I should report him. I didn't, because in my mind it wasn't harassment and actually he left soon after or I did, can't remember which way around it was. There was a few other occasions when working I'd also had 'attention' from older guys.
> 
> I think it depends on your definition of harassment too for some my supervisor's behaviour would be....for me it wasn't. I'm not sure that automatically makes him a predator or a danger to women etc and he should be vilified ( as some of the recent accused actors etc are being ) . As already stated here, what used to pass as normal friendly banter just doesn't anymore. I'm not sure whether that's because we have genuinely changed perceptions on what is right & wrong, or whether we've just become a paranoid society who has to see the wrong in every action or comment.
> 
> ...


Nope, a very rational post. It's like I said earlier it's historic cases some going back many decades. Where are all high profile claims that happened this week, month or even this year? It would appear that attitudes have already changed for the better.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dr Pepper said:


> The women obviously. Ten women up for a part, one offers to do the deed in return for the role. Who's taken advantage of whom?
> 
> Ten men up for a part in the same film, hmmm how can one of them secure a part? It'd come down to talent or fee wouldn't it?
> 
> Yes it should just be the talent or fee for the women, unfortunately for them they have to compete with less talented actresses who are happy to offer the "extras" to get ahead.


Seriously??? Just wow .... that answer shows such a lack of comprehension tbh


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Dogloverlou said:


> Note I'm talking about harassment here, not assault which is easier to define!
> 
> Unpopular opinion of the day I'm sure.


nope, I get what you mean. Ive had a few colleagues (male and female) who have been quite touchy in that they would put an arm round you, give you a hug or pinch your arm. Kinda freaked me out coz I dont like physical contact but I would never accuse them of being inappropriate coz it obviously had no untoward meaning to them. I think that most people can tell the difference between innocent gestures and creepy ones.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> That's what I mean.....
> 
> If a guy approached me with a friendly smile, paid me a compliment and offered to buy me a drink I might be flattered but if not interested I'd decline politely and if he just shrugged and moved away, I wouldn't have an issue.
> 
> ...


But what if said assulter thought slapping arses, was a valid flirting method? ( Not so much the name calling...... Lol)


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> No
> 
> But what if said assulter thought slapping arses, was a valid flirting method? ( Not so much the name calling...... Lol)


Then said person should revise their flirting methods


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> No
> 
> But what if said assulter thought slapping arses, was a valid flirting method? ( Not so much the name calling...... Lol)


surely then a punch in the face becomes a valid method of saying no doesnt it!?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Then said person should revise their flirting methods


Well yes I agree, but some folk simply don't realise things like that can be offensive, don't get it, and so don't see a revision as necessary......


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> surely then a punch in the face becomes a valid method of saying no doesnt it!?


Then that's assault..... Lol


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2017)

I am a touchy person. I touch, hug, I have a small personal bubble, I am physically affectionate. 
I am also aware that what is comfortable for me, is not comfortable for everyone. I have friends who are not touchy, with them, I monitor myself and don't reach in for the pat on the arm or touch or hug. I let that person's comfort level guide me. It's not difficult. 

My male boss gave me a big giant bear hug last week. I needed it, it was a horrible day, I was devastated, and I needed a kind word, and yes, a big old hug. We've known each other for decades, it was totally appropriate. He would not have dreamed of doing the same with someone he didn't know that well or who isn't a hugger. 

If it's that hard for you to figure out the comfort level of another person, then yes, you do need to re-evaluate your human interactions. This is not a bad thing.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

[Quoted comment deleted, quote removed]

**Sigh** .... it really isn't that difficult to understand ...am sorry it's taking you so long.

And so disappointing that even in 2017 to still hear so much victim blaming ...... I thought it was just the Daily Mail who was still promoting these ideas


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> **Sigh** .... it really isn't that difficult to understand ...am sorry it's taking you so long.
> 
> And so disappointing that even in 2017 to still hear so much victim blaming ...... I thought it was just the Daily Mail who was still promoting these ideas


There you go "victim blaming". That's not what I'm saying at all, in fact quite the opposite. But to comprehend that you have to free yourself from the shackles that all men are abusers and all women are victims.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dr Pepper said:


> There you go "victim blaming". That's not what I'm saying at all, in fact quite the opposite. But to comprehend that you have to free yourself from the shackles that all men are abusers and all women are victims.


I don't think that at all & I don't think anyone posting here has suggested that .......

Is this another example of 'mansplaining'??? :Arghh


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I haven read over all the points in this post but one point Jonathan Friedland makes in his article is (and I paraphrase) is that men can make an innocent friendly gesture and then face an accusation and I appreciate this. I would hate that 'Me to' made us a society who showed no physically affection unless within a relationship. My bubble of what it acceptable is not as anyone else's and I've been close to men who I've never been in a relationship with at all but the touch on the arm or the spontaneous hug was nothing more than what it was whoever instigated it. A witch hunt must never kill friendships or make men or women scared. Me too only works with context and clarity and two words on a status on social media lack this. It's brevity is the undoing and belittling of those who have really endured


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

This thread reminded me of something my nan said to me, not too long ago.

"Don't you be going out now these darks nights are here with that dog, d'ya hear me? All the weirdos and nutters come out, you'd be asking for something to happen to you"

I got rather annoyed with that statement at the time - my mum didn't understand why I went quiet. IMO it doesn't matter what time of day I go out - if I choose to go out when it's dark, if I'm alone or not and it certainly doesn't mean I'm asking for anything to happen.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I am a touchy person. I touch, hug, I have a small personal bubble, I am physically affectionate.
> I am also aware that what is comfortable for me, is not comfortable for everyone. I have friends who are not touchy, with them, I monitor myself and don't reach in for the pat on the arm or touch or hug. I let that person's comfort level guide me. It's not difficult.
> 
> My male boss gave me a big giant bear hug last week. I needed it, it was a horrible day, I was devastated, and I needed a kind word, and yes, a big old hug. We've known each other for decades, it was totally appropriate. He would not have dreamed of doing the same with someone he didn't know that well or who isn't a hugger.
> ...


See, I'm the opposite, in that I am definitely not a "touchy-feely" person, and, to some extent, I find that I have had to modify my own behaviour, and, with some people (talking female relatives here, nothing sexual about it) I've had to learn to accept hugs, whether I want them or not, in some cases.

I'd be interested to know how the contributors to this thread would interpret the following, bearing in mind the above.

A couple weeks ago, I went out with my brother and my dad. As I was walking through the door, another woman reached the door at the same time, and I apologised (for not stopping/not holding the door/no reason whatsoever ... I am British, at the end of the day  ). She reassured me that there was nothing to apologise for, but as she did so, she grabbed both of my arms, just below the shoulders. I don't know this woman, and, as above, not being a touchy-feely (or particularly sociable) person, I was uncomfortable in how to handle it. Nothing sexual about the encounter, but I was uncomfortable, and for her, it was, presumably, natural.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> See, I'm the opposite, in that I am definitely not a "touchy-feely" person, and, to some extent, I find that I have had to modify my own behaviour, and, with some people (talking female relatives here, nothing sexual about it) I've had to learn to accept hugs, whether I want them or not, in some cases.
> 
> I'd be interested to know how the contributors to this thread would interpret the following, bearing in mind the above.
> 
> A couple weeks ago, I went out with my brother and my dad. As I was walking through the door, another woman reached the door at the same time, and I apologised (for not stopping/not holding the door/no reason whatsoever ... I am British, at the end of the day  ). She reassured me that there was nothing to apologise for, but as she did so, she grabbed both of my arms, just below the shoulders. I din't know this woman, and, as above, not being a touchy-feely (or particularly sociable) person, I was uncomfortable in how to handle it. Nothing sexual about the encounter, but I was uncomfrtable, and for her, it was, presumably, natural.


I am similar in that I really hate most physical contact with people .... even with friends I am not touchy-feely.... just how I am. I too brace myself at times as some people more demonstrative & if they do give me hug (or whatever) as they are just trying to be nice or friendly so I don't make a big deal out of it. If I m genuinely uncomfortable then I say something.

I was on a course at work recently & the man who was running it had no concept of personal space so in the end I said to him to not get too close... he thought it was funny & then kept doing it even more. He then tried to make me the joke of the classroom even though I had been discreet when I had spoken to him .....funny that he shut up when I asked him if HR would also find it as amusing as he did!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

LinznMilly said:


> See, I'm the opposite, in that I am definitely not a "touchy-feely" person, and, to some extent, I find that I have had to modify my own behaviour, and, with some people (talking female relatives here, nothing sexual about it) I've had to learn to accept hugs, whether I want them or not, in some cases.
> 
> I'd be interested to know how the contributors to this thread would interpret the following, bearing in mind the above.
> 
> A couple weeks ago, I went out with my brother and my dad. As I was walking through the door, another woman reached the door at the same time, and I apologised (for not stopping/not holding the door/no reason whatsoever ... I am British, at the end of the day  ). She reassured me that there was nothing to apologise for, but as she did so, she grabbed both of my arms, just below the shoulders. I don't know this woman, and, as above, not being a touchy-feely (or particularly sociable) person, I was uncomfortable in how to handle it. Nothing sexual about the encounter, but I was uncomfortable, and for her, it was, presumably, natural.


I'm with you on that, I don't want hugs, don't want a arm around me and I certainly don't want continental cheek kissing bluuuuurgh. I like my own space and even as a family (both sides luckily) we don't do touchy-feely.

But then when someone does I don't consider I've been abused in any which way, I'm just different to them. In fact there's one woman in her seventies I regularly chat to when out with the dogs, she's lonely and always says "give me a hug", it goes against every grain in my being but I do (quickly!). I do it to make her feel better and although a almost daily event I don't consider it harassment.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

LinznMilly said:


> See, I'm the opposite, in that I am definitely not a "touchy-feely" person, and, to some extent, I find that I have had to modify my own behaviour, and, with some people (talking female relatives here, nothing sexual about it) I've had to learn to accept hugs, whether I want them or not, in some cases.
> 
> I'd be interested to know how the contributors to this thread would interpret the following, bearing in mind the above.
> 
> A couple weeks ago, I went out with my brother and my dad. As I was walking through the door, another woman reached the door at the same time, and I apologised (for not stopping/not holding the door/no reason whatsoever ... I am British, at the end of the day  ). She reassured me that there was nothing to apologise for, but as she did so, she grabbed both of my arms, just below the shoulders. I don't know this woman, and, as above, not being a touchy-feely (or particularly sociable) person, I was uncomfortable in how to handle it. Nothing sexual about the encounter, but I was uncomfortable, and for her, it was, presumably, natural.


I assume she gave you a reassuring squeeze when grabbing you? That's what it sounds like to me. And for most people would probably be ok. If she knew you weren't ok with that sort of thing then she wouldn't have done it. But if she lives in a world when that would be ok, then she wouldn't have thought anything of it.

If it had happened to me, I would probably have thought it was a slightly strange thing to do to someone you don't know, and get on with my day.

I come from a family of two halves. I grew up with my Dad and my step-mother, she was never one for physical contact (apart from a good whacking but that's a different story), so when I used to visit my mother, which wasn't very often, I was uncomfortable at first with how touchy feely both her and my step-dad were. I got used to it though, I came to see that that was more the 'norm' than what happened in my other life.

Now, I'm the huggy person


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2017)

LinznMilly said:


> I've had to learn to accept hugs, whether I want them or not, in some cases.


See, to me that in itself is a bit of a problem. 
Why should you have to learn to accept something that you're not comfortable with?

Off on a bit of a tangent, but I never made my kids *have* to get a hug or a kiss from relatives or close friends. If they wanted one, fine (and both my children are as demonstrative and physically affectionate as I am), but it was never "let auntie give you a hug" or "go give auntie a hug." I'm a big believer in kids having body autonomy, and if they don't want a hug or a kiss, they don't have to. It's strange to me that some adults feel like they have a right to impose themselves on kids like that, and even stranger that some parents insist their kids participate despite their protests.

I think we have to learn to accept that different levels of comfort with physical contact are normal and to be respected. And when we learn this in all contexts hopefully it will also ameliorate things in the male/female context as well.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

ouesi said:


> I think we have to learn to accept that different levels of comfort with physical contact are normal and to be respected. And when we learn this in all contexts hopefully it will also ameliorate things in the male/female context as well.


That's the crux of it and I couldn't agree more.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> See, I'm the opposite, in that I am definitely not a "touchy-feely" person, and, to some extent, I find that I have had to modify my own behaviour, and, with some people (talking female relatives here, nothing sexual about it) I've had to learn to accept hugs, whether I want them or not, in some cases.
> 
> I'd be interested to know how the contributors to this thread would interpret the following, bearing in mind the above.
> 
> A couple weeks ago, I went out with my brother and my dad. As I was walking through the door, another woman reached the door at the same time, and I apologised (for not stopping/not holding the door/no reason whatsoever ... I am British, at the end of the day  ). She reassured me that there was nothing to apologise for, but as she did so, she grabbed both of my arms, just below the shoulders. I don't know this woman, and, as above, not being a touchy-feely (or particularly sociable) person, I was uncomfortable in how to handle it. Nothing sexual about the encounter, but I was uncomfortable, and for her, it was, presumably, natural.


I'm not touchy feely either. I struggle to understand how someone who is, like said woman in your story, would know that a simple touch could make a stranger feel uncomfortable, if for them it's just that a simple gesture. I'm not sure they should have to monitor themselves with that sort of thing.
I too can be an appeasement hugger ( giving hugs to those I know like it etc). I'm also not adverse to wrapping my arms round someone who is in desperate need of a hug, despite not wanting that for myself.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2017)

ShibaPup said:


> This thread reminded me of something my nan said to me, not too long ago.
> 
> "Don't you be going out now these darks nights are here with that dog, d'ya hear me? All the weirdos and nutters come out, you'd be asking for something to happen to you"
> 
> I got rather annoyed with that statement at the time - my mum didn't understand why I went quiet. IMO it doesn't matter what time of day I go out - if I choose to go out when it's dark, if I'm alone or not and it certainly doesn't mean I'm asking for anything to happen.


I agree, this narrative bothers me too. 
Women are constantly told how to stay safe from predatory men. While that might seem an innocent, even caring suggestion, the underlying narrative is that women bear some of the responsibility for not getting attacked. Which is bass-ackwards on so many levels! 
It also serves on some level to keep women afraid - constantly reminded that we are the vulnerable sex, that our gender alone is enough to make us targets. This keeps us dependent, ideally on a man, to keep us safe. Those of us who refuse to be afraid are branded crazy at best, at worst we're told we're "asking for something to happen." As if the act of walking your dog at night is an invitation to be assaulted.

This mentality, which is still so very prevalent, shows how far we still have to go.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> See, I'm the opposite, in that I am definitely not a "touchy-feely" person, and, to some extent, I find that I have had to modify my own behaviour, and, with some people (talking female relatives here, nothing sexual about it) I've had to learn to accept hugs, whether I want them or not, in some cases.
> 
> I'd be interested to know how the contributors to this thread would interpret the following, bearing in mind the above.
> 
> A couple weeks ago, I went out with my brother and my dad. As I was walking through the door, another woman reached the door at the same time, and I apologised (for not stopping/not holding the door/no reason whatsoever ... I am British, at the end of the day  ). She reassured me that there was nothing to apologise for, but as she did so, she grabbed both of my arms, just below the shoulders. I don't know this woman, and, as above, not being a touchy-feely (or particularly sociable) person, I was uncomfortable in how to handle it. Nothing sexual about the encounter, but I was uncomfortable, and for her, it was, presumably, natural.


I'm the same. Really don't like people invading my personal space or being touchy feely and yes, random strangers touching me would make me feel uncomfortable...even those I know who touch/go to hug me makes me uncomfortable. I just don't get the need to constantly be hugging or touching someone as some people are.

I'm pretty good these days at giving off strong 'keep away' signals lol.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ShibaPup said:


> This thread reminded me of something my nan said to me, not too long ago.
> 
> "Don't you be going out now these darks nights are here with that dog, d'ya hear me? All the weirdos and nutters come out, you'd be asking for something to happen to you"
> 
> I got rather annoyed with that statement at the time - my mum didn't understand why I went quiet. IMO it doesn't matter what time of day I go out - if I choose to go out when it's dark, if I'm alone or not and it certainly doesn't mean I'm asking for anything to happen.


No I agree and in an ideal World it shouldn't matter.

Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal World and there are bad and evil people around who will take advantage of someone in a vulnerable situation. Therefore, we need to be sensible and take reasonable steps to keep ourselves safe.

That doesn't excuse any behaviour of others.

Nor does it lay any blame with a victim.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I've had to put up with all sorts in my time. Being that I'm an identical twin, I get complete strangers come up and hug me, slap my arse, squeal at me from the other side of the street and once I was actually threatened by a man I'd never seen before


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

rona said:


> I've had to put up with all sorts in my time. Being that I'm an identical twin, I get complete strangers come up and hug me, slap my arse, squeal at me from the other side of the street and once I was actually threatened by a man I'd never seen before


This isn't going to go down well with some, but.....

....your sister seems to be a lot more fun than you


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> This isn't going to go down with some, but.....
> 
> ....your sister seems to be a lot more fun than you


How do you know that? 

You don't know what she's endured


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

rona said:


> How do you know that?
> 
> You don't know what she's endured


Fair point!


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2017)

Lurcherlad said:


> Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal World and there are bad and evil people around who will take advantage of someone in a vulnerable situation. Therefore, we need to be sensible and take reasonable steps to keep ourselves safe.


It's such a slippery slope though. 
What counts as vulnerable? I don't consider myself in any way vulnerable, yet to hear people (even people who know me) talk, the sole fact that I am a woman makes me vulnerable and I shouldn't go running on my own.
The underlying message is that because I am a woman (and therefore vulnerable), I should not enjoy the same independence that men do. A man out running on his own is fine, but a woman out running on her own is "asking for trouble"? I have a problem with that.

What are sensible, reasonable precautions? Is it reasonable to tell women to never leave their drink unattended, watch the waiter pour it, don't accept a drink from anyone because someone might slip a drug in their drink? Why is the narrative not related to the utter f-ed-up-edness that it is to put a drug in someone's drink to have your way with them? Why are we not talking to men about how messed up it is to find an unresponsive women arousing?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> It's such a slippery slope though.
> What counts as vulnerable? I don't consider myself in any way vulnerable, yet to hear people (even people who know me) talk, the sole fact that I am a woman makes me vulnerable and I shouldn't go running on my own.
> The underlying message is that because I am a woman (and therefore vulnerable), I should not enjoy the same independence that men do. A man out running on his own is fine, but a woman out running on her own is "asking for trouble"? I have a problem with that.
> 
> What are sensible, reasonable precautions? Is it reasonable to tell women to never leave their drink unattended, watch the waiter pour it, don't accept a drink from anyone because someone might slip a drug in their drink? Why is the narrative not related to the utter f-ed-up-edness that it is to put a drug in someone's drink to have your way with them? Why are we not talking to men about how messed up it is to find an unresponsive women arousing?


We all have to make those decisions for ourselves.

My OH could just as easily be attacked out walking alone in the dark, but the reality is any would be attacker would probably think twice given he is a bloke who looks like he can handle himself (he can ).

Compared to him, I look less able but compared to some men I know I would probably stand a better chance of defending myself than they would.

An attacker will make a judgement on their own chances and probably pick on someone they perceive to be weaker. That's just how it is, surely?

I'm a strong, independent woman but physically weaker than an equivalent male - that's just how is too, surely? I don't feel inferior, nor do I think the men I know think I am either (or that they are superior).

And, as far as I'm aware young men are being educated just as much as young women on what is acceptable, reasonable behaviour with other people and how to be safe, etc.

Most males *do not* think slipping someone a dose of Rohypnol (sp?) in order to get laid is ok.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> It's such a slippery slope though.
> What counts as vulnerable? I don't consider myself in any way vulnerable, yet to hear people (even people who know me) talk, the sole fact that I am a woman makes me vulnerable and I shouldn't go running on my own.


I've known plenty of women who would not be vulnerable out alone. However they are in a minority. Men generally are stronger. Body language, awareness all play a role as well. Plenty of places men wouldn't go on their own and would be stupid for doing so. Avoiding doing so isn't case of "not asking for trouble", it's a case of being sensible.

Men and women are simply not the same. There are differences, something the "feminists" only acknowledge when it serves their purpose.

We do not live in an ideal world, neither will we. Should people become victims simply because we want it to be an ideal world? That applies to both men and women in different environments/settings. Personally I don't think so.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Lurcherlad said:


> We all have to make those decisions for ourselves.
> 
> My OH could just as easily be attacked out walking alone in the dark, but the reality is any would be attacker would probably think twice given he is a bloke who looks like he can handle himself (he can ).
> 
> ...


I agree with all of that. My previous job but one involved traveling all around the uk and it's islands and highlands. Some places I would feel perfectly safe walking about, going to a cashpoint etc, others not so much so I'd avoid the areas or be extra vigilant. This was as a solo male in my mid twenties to mid thirties. So yes we feel insecure as well but take precautions just the same as women do in certain situations. Being a lone male I was also subject to many a suggestive remark/proposition from groups (and single) ladies, and a few men to be fair!

The world isn't black and white, there will always be good and bad. Thankfully the majority are the former.

It's not just about female abuse, the vast majority of men feel intimidated and fearful in certain situations as well. To say women shouldn't have put up with "xyz" isn't helpful as men have to put up with "abc", it's just not a news story when it's the men.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2017)

Lurcherlad said:


> We all have to make those decisions for ourselves.


But in many ways society doesn't allow us to make that call for ourselves.

When women are told "you're asking for something to happen" just because they take the dog out to pee at 9pm, that's not letting us make those decisions for themselves. 
That's telling women that they brought it upon themselves if they get attacked. And I have a problem with that.



Lurcherlad said:


> And, as far as I'm aware young men are being educated just as much as young women on what is acceptable, reasonable behaviour with other people and how to be safe, etc.


Yes they are thank god. This is a new and much welcome trend. 







Lurcherlad said:


> Most males *do not* think slipping someone a dose of Rohypnol (sp?) in order to get laid is ok.


Of course they don't. Drugging a drink is an easy answer because I think we all can agree how wrong that is. 
But how many will go so far as to stop it when they suspect something like that is happening? Or the woman just had too much to drink? Again, see the video above.

If we're going to say women have a responsibility to keep themselves safe, we need to be also saying, just as loudly if not more so, that if you see someone who needs help, you help however you can, and not look the other way because, you know, boys will be boys, and what does she expect wearing that and getting all sloppy drunk like that.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2017)

Goblin said:


> I've known plenty of women who would not be vulnerable out alone. However they are in a minority. Men generally are stronger. Body language, awareness all play a role as well. Plenty of places men wouldn't go on their own and would be stupid for doing so. Avoiding doing so isn't case of "not asking for trouble", it's a case of being sensible.
> 
> Men and women are simply not the same. There are differences, something the "feminists" only acknowledge when it serves their purpose.
> 
> We do not live in an ideal world, neither will we. Should people become victims simply because we want it to be an ideal world? That applies to both men and women in different environments/settings. Personally I don't think so.


And still my question asking what are sensible, reasonable precautions for your average woman remains unanswered.

I never said we shouldn't be sensible. I said it was a slippery slope and asked what would be a sensible precaution for a woman.

@ShibaPup was told she should not walk her dog in the dark. Is that sensible? 
I'm told I shouldn't run alone in remote areas, is that sensible?

What IS okay for a woman to do, that if she were to be attacked it wouldn't be partially her fault for not being 'sensible'?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Dr Pepper said:


> I agree with all of that. My previous job but one involved traveling all around the uk and it's islands and highlands. Some places I would feel perfectly safe walking about, going to a cashpoint etc, others not so much so I'd avoid the areas or be extra vigilant. This was as a solo male in my mid twenties to mid thirties. So yes we feel insecure as well but take precautions just the same as women do in certain situations. Being a lone male I was also subject to many a suggestive remark/proposition from groups (and single) ladies, and a few men to be fair!
> 
> The world isn't black and white, there will always be good and bad. Thankfully the majority are the former.
> 
> It's not just about female abuse, the vast majority of men feel intimidated and fearful in certain situations as well. To say women shouldn't have put up with "xyz" isn't helpful as men have to put up with "abc", it's just not a news story when it's the men.


About 30 years ago the city where my now husband lived had a serial rapist on the streets. This ogre attached numerous women and in a city that experienced some crime but never anything that could be termed as a series of consistent rapes, it affected everyone. My husband, a single man, took himself off to the police station to be eliminated from the enquiries through fingerprints, as did many men. As it was the ogre who carried out these attacks drove his wife to work each day and his wife worked at the same firm as my husband. This person was not a man and not representative of mankind.

Thing is, most sane men will make small mistakes, I've been hugged when I didn't want to be by men and women because in all this stuff, men can be abused too and who is speaking for them as you rightly say.

In general to the thread.

I saw a post on a group today with two topless men and the OP asking the group to judge... that to me is objectionable because it's no better than someone looking at me and saying nice tits. Its making an educated decision and being respectful to each other regardless of gender.

The biggest threat I had was my ex who was abusive both physically and mentally. But eventually after living in fear long after I left him, I took self defence classes run by an ex policeman and got to the point where I could throw my 6ft brother over my shoulder. Then I felt capable. Sometimes we all have to be aware of our safety and take some lawful actions to protect ourselves.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Im 62 , I lived the sexist sixties and seventies , it was dreadful .
> 
> I wanted to be equal to men .
> What I don't want is reverse sexism .
> Women have suffered terribly and still do but I don't want the men who have suffered from physically attacks by their partners , who have been molested and groped by woman and falsely accused of assault and sexual assault to be ignored.


Im of the same era, cant say I suffered particularly, ok maybe in the career sector, and being under valued there but I could well handle the wolf whistles and honking horns.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

ouesi said:


> And still my question asking what are sensible, reasonable precautions for your average woman remains unanswered.
> 
> I never said we shouldn't be sensible. I said it was a slippery slope and asked what would be a sensible precaution for a woman.
> 
> ...


That's the sad thing - questions like "Did you encourage/lead him on?" "What was you wearing?" "Did you watch your drink?" "Why was you alone?" "Why did you get drunk?" "Why was you out in the dark?"

Like only women are completely responsible for what happens to them - anyone would think men can't control themselves around the opposite gender - god forbid they see a bit of flesh!


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

ShibaPup said:


> That's the sad thing - questions like "Did you encourage/lead him on?" "What was you wearing?" "Did you watch your drink?" "Why was you alone?" "Why did you get drunk?" "Why was you out in the dark?"
> 
> Like only women are completely responsible for what happens to them - anyone would think men can't control themselves around the opposite gender - god forbid they see a bit of flesh!


I'm sure I read somewhere that dressing 'provocatively' and rape/sexual abuse have no correlation. That the crime is mainly purely opportunistic.

So 'being in the wrong place at the wrong time' is mainly a factor.

Whether or not people wish to accept it, women are the weaker sex, and should make their decisions about where to go and when with a modicum of common sense.

I'm not saying be afraid to go outside, but make the choice to make yourself safe if the environment you are going to be in can't guarantee that.

But this thread isn't about that sort of abuse anyway is it?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> asked what would be a sensible precaution for a woman.


No single answer as there are too many variables in play. I know some women who would be safe in places I wouldn't, as a male go alone in. One thing certainly not getting so drunk they are not aware of their actions without people they trust (and not also drunk) around them is on the list.



> @ShibaPup was told she should not walk her dog in the dark. Is that sensible?
> I'm told I shouldn't run alone in remote areas, is that sensible?


Yes, as a man I feel the same way. Depends obviously on where you go and your environment.

You want black and white answers yet are unable to accept in this, as in the term sexual harrassment there are no black and white answers. People know there are lines which shouldn't be crossed, yet where the exact borders of right/wrong are isn't so simple.



> What IS okay for a woman to do, that if she were to be attacked it wouldn't be partially her fault for not being 'sensible'?


Men also get attacked and depending on the circumstances he would be called an idiot for being in the area or being dressed a certain way. You are right when it is used as an excuse to claim a crime isn't a crime. That shouldn't happen. Still doesn't change the simple fact that the incident may have been avoided by using common sense.

If a man is tipsy or even drunk and spends a night with a woman, has the woman been criminal for taking advantage of the man? Has a crime been committed or is it simply a case of people being irresponsible?

Notice you totally ignore the fact that men and women are different. That's a simple fact of life.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

MilleD said:


> I'm sure I read somewhere that dressing 'provocatively' and rape/sexual abuse have no correlation. ?


Oher! Summat I did for much of my life,


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dr Pepper said:


> It's s terrible shame you feel that is the case. You probably need to get out into the real world and meet the vast majority of very decent men, rather than read sensational headlines that are reporting stories from thirty years or more ago.


As @ShibaPup posted these are very real concerns even now. My friends daughter was raped last year& had exactly those questions thrown at her in court even though they are supposedly 'not allowed'. She was asked questions about her past relationships, what she was wearing, etc & even the fact that apparently she wasn't acting like a 'victim' enough .... not sensational headlines, not how things 'used but recently .... in the very real world!


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

ouesi said:


> See, to me that in itself is a bit of a problem.
> Why should you have to learn to accept something that you're not comfortable with?
> 
> Off on a bit of a tangent, but I never made my kids *have* to get a hug or a kiss from relatives or close friends. If they wanted one, fine (and both my children are as demonstrative and physically affectionate as I am), but it was never "let auntie give you a hug" or "go give auntie a hug." I'm a big believer in kids having body autonomy, and if they don't want a hug or a kiss, they don't have to. It's strange to me that some adults feel like they have a right to impose themselves on kids like that, and even stranger that some parents insist their kids participate despite their protests.
> ...


Exactly how I raised my daughter. Can't be doing with all this, "Give grandma a kiss" business :-(


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MilleD said:


> women are the weaker sex


I'm sorry but that is rubbish!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> Exactly how I raised my daughter. Can't be doing with all this, "Give grandma a kiss" business :-(


I wish we were, I had one particularly creepy great uncle I wished I could've avoided.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I have been pondering over this thread today trying to work out how I feel. I do think it's very unfair that some men who are innocent may have their names dragged through the mud. Mud sticks after all and even if found innocent there may always be some who consider them guilty.

Back in my days as a teacher I was hyper-aware of child protection and made sure that I did not put myself in a situation where I could have been accused of something (e.g. if I had to keep a child behind for some reason then made sure the classroom door was open or another teacher present etc.). I remember on one occasion I was trying to open a door that was jammed slightly. In doing so I accidentally elbowed a girl in the arm. The girl shouted out "you punched me!". It worried me at the time and had it just been me and her in the room it would have been her word against mine. Thankfully there was a whole class of witnesses and it never came to anything.

Similarly my OH used to work at a nursery. She looked after 8 children aged 3-5 in a room on her own and there were no cameras in the room. Had something ever happened then it would have been her word against a child's word (and as you may know children tend to make up a lot of stories at that age).

On the other side of the coin there are unfortunately many men (and women) who do not seem to be able to grasp the idea of being respectful. Only yesterday a male colleague told me that he didn't believe that I was gay. I had a whole conversation with him where I said "you do know that I'm married to a woman don't you?" to which he replied "yes but I think you're just telling me that so that you can then come out as straight." I have also encountered men who, rather than respectfully backing off when they know I am spoken for, think that a lesbian is a "challenge", we are just playing hard-to-get and need to experience a "real man". This behaviour worries me greatly.

My OH's cousin was groomed online by a man. He invited her to a party, picked her up and drove her there and when they arrived it was just the two of them and another man. The two men took it in turns to rape her and brutally sexually assaulted her. It was only once they passed out through alcohol that she managed to escape. She was 17.

It was almost 10 years before she told anyone about it. Then one day she was on a bus and saw him. He recognised her and realised that she recognised him and after she got off the bus he tried to kill her - he shoved her to the ground and stamped on her face in broad daylight in the middle of Birmingham city centre. He was convicted of attempted murder and she testified against him in court. It was at this point that loads of other women came out and spoke about abuse they had experienced at the hands of this man - they had previously been too ashamed to speak out 

I would like to say that the majority of the men that I meet don't make me feel uncomfortable, but then I would probably feel very differently had I been subjected to previous abuse, or indeed if I was perhaps more shy. In my job I often find myself in a bedroom at the hotel with a man (or even several) because I am showing them around the hotel. I have done this for about 5 years now and it was only a few months back when someone asked me if I carry a rape alarm during showrounds that I even considered that I could be vulnerable. I don't feel vulnerable - I certainly managed to hold my own growing up with 2 big brothers  and I can be very blunt when telling someone to back off.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> And still my question asking what are sensible, reasonable precautions for your average woman remains unanswered.
> 
> I never said we shouldn't be sensible. I said it was a slippery slope and asked what would be a sensible precaution for a woman.
> 
> ...


But it's an unanswerable question because it depends on so many things.

What is safe and sensible in one area may not be somewhere else.

I have no qualms about walking Jack around my estate at night, but I stick to well lit pavements close to houses. I avoid dark alleyways and if there was a group of lads hanging around I'd go the other way.

Somebody might tell me I'm asking for trouble but if I didn't feel safe I wouldn't do it. Likewise, if you feel safe running alone somebody else's opinion is irrelevant.

Who are all these people who believe a victim is responsible for their demise because they were drunk, wore a short skirt, walked alone in the dark? There might be a few but I think the vast majority just don't.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> I'm sorry but that is rubbish!


Physically, they are though generally speaking.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Who are all these people who believe a victim is responsible for their demise because they were drunk, wore a short skirt, walked alone in the dark? There might be a few but I think the vast majority just don't.


Sadly those attitudes are more widespread than anyone would hope. Reading the online comments section of news reports on rape cases can be pretty depressing!

The following data comes from a random sample survey by ICM of 1,095 adults aged 18+ by telephone. They were given a series of scenarios and asked to indicate whether they believed a woman was totally responsible, partially responsible or not at all responsible for being raped. Results were as follows:


If the woman was drunk, 4pc said she was totally responsible and 26pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman behaved in a flirtatious manner, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 28pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman failed to say "no" clearly to the man, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 29pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 20pc said she was partially responsible.
If it is known that the woman has many sexual partners, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 14pc said she was partially responsible.
If she is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, 5pc said she was totally responsible and 17pc said she was partially responsible.

Here's a report on another survey by the Office of National Statistics from 2015: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-rape-victims-often-to-blame-says-survey.html In a nutshell, it showed than 26% of the public believe victims of rape or sexual assault are at least partly responsible for what has happened to them if they were drunk, 31% believe victims are at least partly responsible if they had taken drugs, and 38% believe victims are at least partly responsible if they had been "flirting heavily."

The raw data can be found on the ONS site here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...oussexualassault#attitudes-to-sexual-violence If you scroll up a bit, there are also statistics on why many victims don't tell the Police, or anyone at all.

Discounting the 'don't knows', the percentages of 'victim not responsible' respondants was 66% for drunk victims, 60% for victims on drugs, and 56% for victims who had been flirting. OK, that still leaves the majority believing the victim bears no responsibility, but I'd hesitate to use the term 'vast' majority - significant, maybe, but not vast. Perhaps not even significant for flirting victims.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> I'm sorry but that is rubbish!


Agreed. I wasn't aware it was a competition. 
In general, women tend to be healthier than men, engage in less risky behavior and thus live longer. Doesn't exactly seem like the "weaker" sex to me *meh*



Lurcherlad said:


> But it's an unanswerable question because it depends on so many things.
> 
> What is safe and sensible in one area may not be somewhere else.
> 
> ...


Exactly, it totally depends. So why do we make generalities about how women should stay safe, and tell them they're asking for trouble if they don't, instead of conceding that "women" encompasses a huge variety of abilities and vulnerabilities just like "men" does. There is no one rule based on your gender.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Exactly, it totally depends. So why do we make generalities about how women should stay safe, and tell them they're asking for trouble if they don't, instead of conceding that "women" encompasses a huge variety of abilities and vulnerabilities just like "men" does. There is no one rule based on your gender.


And there we have one of the problems and feminism. Failure to acknowledge simple fact men and women are different in many areas. Did you know swiss army knives used to be able to be assembled by women only (high skill job) as men were found to be inferior in that role? Swings and roundabouts.

General differences lead to general strengths/weaknesses leads to general assumptions and general advice.

So tell me if a woman sleeps with a man who is drunk. Has the woman commited a crime if the man says it was a mistake after the event?


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> I'm sorry but that is rubbish!


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> Physically, they are though generally speaking.


Which is exactly what I meant, but people are going all out to be offended by trivial things.

If we aren't weaker, why aren't we on a level playing field in sports etc.

Jeez...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Goblin said:


> So tell me if a woman sleeps with a man who is drunk. Has the woman commited a crime if the man says it was a mistake after the event?


No, only if she forced him, then it's classed as assault.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MilleD said:


> Which is exactly what I meant, but people are going all out to be offended by trivial things.
> 
> If we aren't weaker, why aren't we on a level playing field in sports etc.
> 
> Jeez...


I'm not offended...I out and out disagree.
Yes some women may be weaker than some men but you will also find some men weaker than some women 

I've had men gawp at me throwing hay and straw bales around whilst they couldn't lift them...if you wish to believe in that tripe then go ahead, but it doesn't have to be the case!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rona said:


> No, only if she forced him, then it's classed as assault.


So you are saying the man is responsible for his actions. Apparantly, you are victim blaming Rona


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> I'm not offended...I out and out disagree.
> Yes some women may be weaker than some men but you will also find some men weaker than some women
> 
> I've had men gawp at me throwing hay and straw bales around whilst they couldn't lift them...if you wish to believe in that tripe then go ahead, but it doesn't have to be the case!


*Generally *it is an accepted fact that women are weaker than men.

What is it about that that you find so hard to swallow?

Yes, some women are stronger than men, but _*on average*_, women are weaker.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Goblin said:


> And there we have one of the problems and feminism. Failure to acknowledge simple fact men and women are different in many areas. Did you know swiss army knives used to be able to be assembled by women only (high skill job) as men were found to be inferior in that role? Swings and roundabouts.
> 
> General differences lead to general strengths/weaknesses leads to general assumptions and general advice.
> 
> So tell me if a woman sleeps with a man who is drunk. Has the woman commited a crime if the man says it was a mistake after the event?


I don't think it's a 'problem' with feminism as such at all (& tbh there are so many variants of feminism that vary enormously anyway ..... but that's a different argument I suppose! )

For me, it's not about promoting that we are all the same (although I think we are in alot more ways than we're not) , etc but more about promoting equality. I consider myself a feminist but acknowledge differences, I also do think that generally speaking women are physically weaker than most men .....but am not sure why that is such a point tbh. There are many variations of physical strengths amongst men so why comparisons are being made am not sure.

Talking of 'consent' as such I do not think this is always B&W .... it seems like it should be but I don't think it is (I will probably get shot down in flames for this but ...) . As you say if one party is drunk & the other takes advantage is it 'assault' regardless of gender ?... again in some ways yes it is & if the 'victim' was in no state to even know what was going on on &/or the 'assailant' knew exactly that there was no chance if s/he was sober then this would be happening then yes I think it is assault

But ...if someone has to much to drink & then regrets a one night stand (haven't we all done this? .... or maybe just me then!) then as far as I was concerned it's just sh*t judgement on my part ..... & maybe theirs as well but just life where we make mistakes.

Personally think it's more complicated especially if alcohol is involved & people's judgements are not what they should be .... & am not victim blaming by this,. If anyone is so drunk they cannot function then no-one should take advantage of them but should help them .... unfortunately we know that this doesn't always happen & there are some vile people around who will just see them as an 'easy victim'.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

MilleD said:


> *Generally *it is an accepted fact that women are weaker than men.
> 
> What is it about that that you find so hard to swallow?
> 
> Yes, some women are stronger than men, but _*on average*_, women are weaker.


I think some people associate "weaker" to mean "inferior".


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MilleD said:


> *Generally *it is an accepted fact that women are weaker than men.
> 
> What is it about that that you find so hard to swallow?
> 
> Yes, some women are stronger than men, but _*on average*_, women are weaker.


Because *Generally *it's codswallop fed to us to keep us in our place...Like for like women can be just as strong as men both physically and mentally.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> Because *Generally *it's codswallop fed to us to keep us in our place...Like for like women can be just as strong as men both physically and mentally.


Ok then. No-one mentioned mentally though.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I mentioned both because both are relevant...Over the course of time women have constantly been told that mentally we are crazy and physically we are weak...say it enough and obviously some take it as fact!

I am not saying that men and women are the same because they are not...but to say we are weaker is rubbish IMHO


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2017)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't think it's a 'problem' with feminism as such at all (& tbh there are so many variants of feminism that vary enormously anyway ..... but that's a different argument I suppose! )
> 
> For me, it's not about promoting that we are all the same (although I think we are in alot more ways than we're not) , etc but more about promoting equality. I consider myself a feminist but acknowledge differences, I also do think that generally speaking women are physically weaker than most men .....but am not sure why that is such a point tbh. There are many variations of physical strengths amongst men so why comparisons are being made am not sure.


Exactly. Don't know why feminism (a broad and diverse movement) got brought up, nor do I know why someone's strength is a factor in anything either. Strength is not an indicator of assault. It's kind of an ignorant comment really. I'm no small person, and I don't go around assaulting those littler than me using my strength to my advantage.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

MilleD said:


> *Generally *it is an accepted fact that women are weaker than men.
> 
> What is it about that that you find so hard to swallow?
> 
> Yes, some women are stronger than men, but _*on average*_, women are weaker.


This is true and also a biological fact Men are usually physically stronger than women, who have, on average, less total muscle mass, both in absolute terms and relative to total body mass. The greater muscle mass of men is the result of testosterone-induced muscular hypertrophy. Men also have denser, stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments.
In terms of physical strength making most women weaker than most men this is true. 
Most animals are not equally matches physically to the opposite sex.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Exactly. Don't know why feminism (a broad and diverse movement) got brought up, nor do I know why someone's strength is a factor in anything either. Strength is not an indicator of assault. It's kind of an ignorant comment really. I'm no small person, and I don't go around assaulting those littler than me using my strength to my advantage.


Yeah, I'm ignorant apparently, cheers.

If my sentence had been quoted in context instead of picking that one bit out, I was talking about people getting 'attacked' obviously if you are weaker than the person attacking you (apparently every woman on PF is stronger than every man in the world) then of course it's a factor as to where you would feel safe going.

Anyway unwatching as underhand swipes at people ain't my bag.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't think it's a 'problem' with feminism as such at all (& tbh there are so many variants of feminism that vary enormously anyway ..... but that's a different argument I suppose! )
> 
> For me, it's not about promoting that we are all the same (although I think we are in alot more ways than we're not) , etc but more about promoting equality. I consider myself a feminist but acknowledge differences, I also do think that generally speaking women are physically weaker than most men .....but am not sure why that is such a point tbh. There are many variations of physical strengths amongst men so why comparisons are being made am not sure.


It's that "acknowledge differences" which tends to be ignored when convenient by some which is why feminism was brought up. Men and women are different in many different areas. There's a complete blur as to when these differences should/shouldn't be acknowledged. I've mentioned before, it's not simply strength, attitude can make an awful lot of difference. The way you dress also can make a lot of difference. Have people considered I wonder that a man in a suit walking through a rough area is more likely to be mugged than a biker with tattoos and leather jacket? Doesn't matter the purely individual physical strength, the perpetrators prejudices will be at play. Wonder how many people can deny these prejudices exist.



> Talking of 'consent' as such I do not think this is always B&W .... it seems like it should be but I don't think it is (I will probably get shot down in flames for this but ...) . As you say if one party is drunk & the other takes advantage is it 'assault' regardless of gender ?... again in some ways yes it is & if the 'victim' was in no state to even know what was going on on &/or the 'assailant' knew exactly that there was no chance if s/he was sober then this would be happening then yes I think it is assault


So what about "dutch courage". Again it's a fine line which is easy to cross and not one easily judged by a legal system.



> Personally think it's more complicated especially if alcohol is involved & people's judgements are not what they should be .... & am not victim blaming by this


Yet even in this thread it has been shown that this is counted as victim blaming. The key point is that it should never be an excuse for a crime being committed on the drunk person. The cry of victim blaming without that context is one which misses the necessary point.



> If anyone is so drunk they cannot function then no-one should take advantage of them but should help them .... unfortunately we know that this doesn't always happen & there are some vile people around who will just see them as an 'easy victim'.


I agree but then again, "cannot function" and "impaired" is a blurred line unless comotose especially if both parties aren't functioning well. Surely the answer is not to get in that state in the first place. Then again, when that is mentioned it's jumped on as victim blaming. Those complaining that it's victim blaming are in effect condoning getting into that state. Goes the same for both men and women here.

Trouble for the legal system is in many ways there are so many areas where it's personal perceptions rather than black or white.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Goblin said:


> So tell me if a woman sleeps with a man who is drunk. Has the woman commited a crime if the man says it was a mistake after the event?


Lack of consent may be demonstrated by (amongst other things):

Evidence that by reason of drink, drugs, sleep, age or mental disability the complainant was unaware of what was occurring and/ or incapable of giving valid consent
So yes if the above applies. Force doesn't have to come in to it at all.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I think this thread shows it's just hard to be a person


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> I mentioned both because both are relevant...Over the course of time women have constantly been told that mentally we are crazy and physically we are weak...say it enough and obviously some take it as fact!
> 
> I am not saying that men and women are the same because they are not...but to say we are weaker is rubbish IMHO


When I worked on the farm I was stronger than your average man but just because of sheer size and ability to bulk, the men working beside me were stronger, unless they'd just started.

If women aren't weaker then why did they have to dumb down the entry test for Firemen to include more women?


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

The complaint that started this thread - *"It's hard to be a man right now" with all these allegations of sexual harassment" *has nothing to do with physical strength (although it invariably does have something to do with power). It has nothing to do accepting that men and women are 'different' either. Let's look at the most recent complaint ...

Ivan Lewis MP. Three women had already made complaints about his behaviour which included - inappropriate and unsolicited text messages, repeatedly asking a young researcher out (until she went to her manager), rubbing his foot against a female interviewee when she came for a job and harassing a girl at Labour Party event (by repeatedly touching her leg ). The complainants were brushed off ....so he continued to do it. Was this 'back in the day'? No. This was during the last 7 years. (And he has acknowledged these events may have happened)

I'm sorry but how does someone confuse rubbing their foot against a woman with normal behaviour in an interview?

And then Kevin Spacey. 20 complaints. And The Old Vic says " the Old Vic's lawyer-led investigation found that Spacey's "stardom and status" may have prevented people, "in particular junior staff or young actors", from feeling able to speak out." Power not physical strength.

Of course men and women are different but that doesn't excuse sexually inappropriate behaviour. "Gosh, I couldn't help it M'lud, my foot started having sex with her leg". Please.

J


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> The complaint that started this thread - *"It's hard to be a man right now" with all these allegations of sexual harassment" *has nothing to do with physical strength (although it invariably does have something to do with power). It has nothing to do accepting that men and women are 'different' either. Let's look at the most recent complaint ...


Your argument wants to limit the discussion away from the title. "All these allegations" is not simply media personalities or those in power shown up by the main media. It also includes your everyday person associated with the undefined #me too tag. It includes the larger environment where the lines blur between acceptable/not acceptable based on intent/perception of acceptance. It's the area where most people live, work and interact with each other. It's where people find balance in their relationships with others etc.

Edit: Would love it if the discussion was simply as you are stating. We have to remember the idea that people are innocent until proven guilty. Beyond that, I do not know anyone who would say lines haven't been crossed into the criminal realm as allegations seem to be in the realm of black and white. Life generally isn't.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Goblin said:


> It also includes your everyday person associated with the undefined #me too tag.


Of course it does ....and in general the 'brush it under the carpet/I just made that comment (texted inappropriately) in fun' is made to every day women in their everyday lives. My wife (who is 20 years younger than me so has a much more recent history) has many, many similar examples she could recount. Sometimes she assures me she gave as good as she got but frequently she had to put up and shut up.

No excuse.

J


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Of course it does ....and in general the 'brush it under the carpet/I just made that comment (texted inappropriately) in fun' is made to every day women in their everyday lives.


So define sexual assault and acceptable behaviour. If you can you do better than everyone else as there are only personal acceptable boundaries combined with intent of the involved parties. Sure go too far out on a limb and less people will find it acceptable but it's not black and white.



> No excuse.


For what.. for flirting or specific examples when acceptable boundaries have been broken. Last Friday I went clubbing, great night out although had to tell someone I was married when I had a hand pat my backside. Not that uncommon and I'm nothing like magic mike. I do not make an issue out of it. Yes there are boundaries, those boundaries are fluid depending on many factors. What should be common is no means no. Stop means stop. No physical contact unless permitted or asked for although "asked for" can be body language itself, offering a hand for example. Arghh.. complications start to intrude into the definition..


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Goblin said:


> but it's not black and white.


It is to my wife.

J


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Goblin said:


> It's that "acknowledge differences" which tends to be ignored when convenient by some which is why feminism was brought up. Men and women are different in many different areas. There's a complete blur as to when these differences should/shouldn't be acknowledged. I've mentioned before, it's not simply strength, attitude can make an awful lot of difference. The way you dress also can make a lot of difference. Have people considered I wonder that a man in a suit walking through a rough area is more likely to be mugged than a biker with tattoos and leather jacket? Doesn't matter the purely individual physical strength, the perpetrators prejudices will be at play. Wonder how many people can deny these prejudices exist.
> 
> So what about "dutch courage". Again it's a fine line which is easy to cross and not one easily judged by a legal system.
> 
> ...


I completely agree regarding prejudices, they exist in all walks of life & all types of society unfortunately. Thee used to be statistics showing that young men were far more likely to be the victims of serious attacks than women (am really not sure of those now though) but there was still alot of fear for some women about being out on their own at night, or even at home sadly.

A few months ago there was a programme about the investigation in to catching the Yorkshire Ripper,about how the police handled (& mishandled) the case & the attitudes of the time regarding the victims ... which were almost as shocking as the crimes. Those poor women who suffered the most unimaginable violence & fear were blamed for being prostitutes, or were thought of as being not entirely innocent as they were out on their own at night rather than being the victims of horrific crimes. A daughter of one of the women was interviewed & spoke of how upsetting it was for her & their family to hear of how her mum was berated in the media & the murders seemed only to matter when a 'nice' woman was attacked ..... I think even in the media they referred to this woman as an 'innocent victim' .....it really was very upsetting & horrible to think that those women were almost thought of as 'asking for it' by some people & it is worrying that even today those attitudes exist.

As for keeping ourselves safe (men & women) I do think we need to be more aware of this, I do think that unfortunately when alcohol is involved our judgments can be impaired so surely this does need to be a consideration. I work in the construction industry & everything is about risk assessment, maybe we need to do that abit more with our own lives in all aspects.

I don't know all the answers I don;t think people will ever agree 100% on things but I do think we have to look at our behaviour a bit more, everyone really.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Not quite sure why I'm back on this thread. But I was watching a crime programme about a murder and thought I'd just Google the name. Usually so I don't have to bother watching the whole thing. This is the screen that greeted me. Even I'm a little annoyed at this product placement


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