# Dairy industry in the news.



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I've just seen some horrible footage on the news of farm workers attacking cows and an upsetting video of a day old calf being taken from its mother.
It's impossible to put into words how angry this makes me feel and it's going on every day in the dairy industry.

If you consume dairy products please watch 
*A Cow's Life: The True Cost of Milk?*
*On panorama tonight.*

*This cruelty is a very human problem.*


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Ive seen horrific filming on line . yesterday it was of a farmer attacking a cow with a pitchfork


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

For those that need to know
7.30 in most of the country 
10.35 in scotland


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

kimthecat said:


> Ive seen horrific filming on line . yesterday it was of a farmer attacking a cow with a pitchfork


Oh gosh how horrible, I'm not going to watch it, I would find it to upsetting I think.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> I've just seen some horrible footage on the news of farm workers attacking cows and an upsetting video of a day old calf being taken from its mother.
> It's impossible to put into words how angry this makes me feel and it's going on every day in the dairy industry.
> 
> If you consume dairy products please watch
> ...


I would say a Farmer attacking a cow, particularly with a pitchfork, would be an unusual incident. It isn't the entire dairy industry.

We know there are those who ill treat and brutalise their dogs, but it doesn't mean we all do.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

adding this here for those who consume dairy products as it maybe helpful to look at ethical scores to make choices if you wish too. Note Asda is owned by Walmart. 
https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food-drink/shopping-guide/milk

and plant alternatives with an eye on packaging and palm oil
https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food-drink/shopping-guide/vegan-non-dairy-milk


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I dont think I could watch something like that go on. TBH I never needed to see any evidence.....once it was explained to me how the dairy industry worked I gave it up straight away!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Well I knew this would happen. Not every dairy farmer treats their cows badly most spend an awful lot of time and money making sure their cows are happy and in good health. But oh who cares about the good ones, let’s tar all dairy farmers with the same brush


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Horrific . Couldnt watch it after a few minutes.

This is an old article . i hope they dont keep calves like this now.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...scary-public-farming-calves-pens-alternatives


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

There is good and bad in all walks of life you can't say all farmers treat their animals that way, most of them spend a lot of their time looking after them.

We never heard about the good ones we only hear about the bad ones that make the news.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Horrific . Couldnt watch it after a few minutes.
> 
> This is an old article . i hope they dont keep calves like this now.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...scary-public-farming-calves-pens-alternatives


One of the healthiest ways to keep calves


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

rona said:


> One of the healthiest ways to keep calves


Better for them if they weren't born in the 1st place, they're either killed for meat or live they're lives having they're calves taken from them for money.
It's a vicious circle.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Siskin said:


> Well I knew this would happen. Not every dairy farmer treats their cows badly most spend an awful lot of time and money making sure their cows are happy and in good health. But oh who cares about the good ones, let's tar all dairy farmers with the same brush


For me, I don't drink dairy mostly due to allergy stuff, but partly welfare, but people do and genuinely don't like plant based milk. I'd rather we drew attention to the ethical farmers too so that those who do buy dairy have better choices.

****

I've boycotted Asda, Lidl and the lower tier supermarkets because to me, I fail to see the point of buying plant milk from a supermarket that just across the aisle is supporting an unethical dairy industry, it's sustaining the industry. But I cut back in other areas to be able to do so and aware I have that ability and privilege at the moment. That might be beyond the £ means of many but the point remains.

Sorry (a bit) if this is controversial and uncomfortable for some but it's a tad hypocritical.

(In fact I know from the Online Shopping in the Covid thread some folk on this thread do shop at Asda who are on the very bottom scale. Walmart are horrendous for ethics!  It does not feel okay to me in my opinion but there we go, each to their own! I don't imagine Asda miss me!)

BUT as consumers at places that push prices and welfare down, we as consumers whether we buy dairy or not, drive this. And I think as the Government ignore a crisis of living costs , animals and farmers will suffer and it's so dammed sad. People don't tend to donate oat milk to food banks, and people who use them have little choice. *sigh* impossible isn't it?

If ethical dairies exist they may create change, such as this one
https://www.ahimsamilk.org/


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> (In fact I know from the Online Shopping in the Covid thread some folk on this thread do shop at Asda who are on the very bottom scale. Walmart are horrendous for ethics


So far as I know, Walmart no longer own Asda.

The Issa Brothers do.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Beth78 said:


> Better for them if they weren't born in the 1st place, they're either killed for meat or live they're lives having they're calves taken from them for money.
> It's a vicious circle.


Agreed, but if they are here we should endeavour to not banish something that is better for their well being and health.
Much better for them than an indoor barn


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Siskin said:


> Well I knew this would happen. Not every dairy farmer treats their cows badly most spend an awful lot of time and money making sure their cows are happy and in good health. But oh who cares about the good ones, let's tar all dairy farmers with the same brush


Im sure they do treat them well.The same as you get good dog breeders and puppy farmers. But I dont think that should stop investigations.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Rafa said:


> So far as I know, Walmart no longer own Asda.
> 
> The Issa Brothers do.





Rafa said:


> So far as I know, Walmart no longer own Asda.
> 
> The Issa Brothers do.


Ah thanks. My error. It doesn't look promising... I imagine Ethical Consumer will run another dairy and/or supermarket review soon

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/retailers/asda-has-new-owners-how-will-affect-company-ethics


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> I've boycotted Asda, Lidl and the lower tier supermarkets


I'm not just sure what constitutes a 'lower tier Supermarket', but I'm sure that those who have children to feed and are living on a budget have to consider cost.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Rafa said:


> I'm not just sure what constitutes a 'lower tier Supermarket', but I'm sure that those who have children to feed and are living on a budget have to consider cost.


Agreed.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

MollySmith said:


> Sorry if that is controversial and uncomfortable for some but it's a tad hypocritical.


We're all hypocrites in some way. 
I don't buy any kind of milk. Here pretty much all the plant based milks are now owned by big dairy because they have seen the writing on the wall and transferred their investments in to plant based milk. 
So I shop on Amazon (horror of horrors) to get ethically sourced cashews, blend them with my well water in a blender also bought off Amazon to make my own plant based milk.

If you start picking holes in everything we might as well all throw up our hands and give up.

To me it's about doing what you can where you can. 
If you can shop more ethically great. If you can eat less meat, great. If you can grow your own veggies, great. If you can raise your own animals and milk them, great! 
I used to get milk from a friend of mine who had a small dairy. We would get a gallon of raw milk once a week. It changed flavor with the seasons and what the cows were eating. The kids got to come and watch the whole milking process, feed the calves... It was lovely. Sadly he passed and his wife had to sell the farm.

Yes, those calves were used as meat, as are many animals. But they live a good life until their time comes. I'm okay with that. I feed my dogs and cats meat. I'm not going to get uppity about the fact that animal flesh is something we all consume in some way or another.

Again, you do what you can where you can. 
It's Jane Goodall's pulling threads theory. 
*"Michael Pollan likens consumer choices to pulling single threads out of a garment. We pull a thread from the garment when we refuse to purchase eggs or meat from birds who were raised in confinement, whose beaks were clipped so they could never once taste their natural diet of worms and insects. We pull out a thread when we refuse to bring home a hormone-fattened turkey for Thanksgiving dinner. We pull a thread when we refuse to buy meat or dairy products from cows who were never allowed to chew grass, or breathe fresh air, or feel the warm sun on their backs.
The more threads we pull, the more difficult it is for the industry to stay intact. You demand eggs and meat without hormones, and the industry will have to figure out how it can raise farm animals without them. Let the animals graze outside and it slows production. Eventually the whole thing will have to unravel.
If the factory farm does indeed unravel - and it must - then there is hope that we can, gradually, reverse the environmental damage it has caused. Once the animal feed operations have gone and livestock are once again able to graze, there will be a massive reduction in the agricultural chemicals currently used to grow grain for animals. And eventually, the horrendous contamination caused by animal waste can be cleaned up. None of this will be easy.
The hardest part of returning to a truly healthy environment may be changing the current totally unsustainable heavy-meat-eating culture of increasing numbers of people around the world. But we must try. We must make a start, one by one."*


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

rona said:


> Agreed, but if they are here we should endeavour to not banish something that is better for their well being and health.
> Much better for them than an indoor barn


Yes, true.
I hate the idea of cows being kept in indoor dairies. I saw something not to long ago about the benefits of indoor dairy I di cringe.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> We're all hypocrites in some way.
> I don't buy any kind of milk. Here pretty much all the plant based milks are now owned by big dairy because they have seen the writing on the wall and transferred their investments in to plant based milk.
> So I shop on Amazon (horror of horrors) to get ethically sourced cashews, blend them with my well water in a blender also bought off Amazon to make my own plant based milk.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree as I said and quoting myself below from above in case anyone is any doubt.



MollySmith said:


> BUT as consumers at places that push prices and welfare down, we as consumers whether we buy dairy or not, drive this. And I think as the Government ignore a crisis of living costs , animals and farmers will suffer and it's so dammed sad. People don't tend to donate oat milk to food banks, and people who use them have little choice. *sigh* impossible isn't it?
> 
> If ethical dairies exist they may create change, such as this one
> https://www.ahimsamilk.org/


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)




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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Imperfection comes easy to me.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Yes, those calves were used as meat, as are many animals. But they live a good life until their time comes. .


In puzzled, not along ago you said this

"The life of a fighting bull is arguably much nicer than the life of a factory farmed meat bull.
They live out in fields undisturbed and then have one bad day (well, very bad).
But farmed animals live in cramped conditions their whole lives, never free to exhibit natural behaviors. Not a nice way to live, and how they die isn't nice either. "

though Im glad if claves are kept in better conditions.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

MollySmith said:


> I absolutely agree as I said and quoting myself below from above in case anyone is any doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't read what you quoted the way it came across.

Honestly your term "lower tier supermarket" sound horribly elitist and I kind of recoiled at it a little. I've never heard that term before. 
I live in rural America. I'd have to drive 45 miles up the interstate to get to the "upper tier" supermarket - would that be Whole Foods? Trader Joes? I go there for fun to see what they have but even if it was 5 miles away I certainly can't afford to shop there all the time. 
It's ALL corporations. If you're getting food from anywhere that's not your backyard, you're supporting some corporation or another. 
Unless it's things like the milk I used to get from my farmer friend, the honey I get from a friend who has her own hives, the deer meat I get from hunting friends, the eggs my friends with backyard chickens give away, or the veggies and fruit we get all summer long - often for free from friends and neighbors who have more than they need.

Ideally we would go back to a more sustainable lifestyle. Many of us are not that far removed from it already. My mom grew up raising most of their own food. They had a small family farm - just enough for them to use. A vegetable garden, ducks, chickens, a few fruit trees, a few hogs that at slaughter time neighbors would come together and help out and share with the workload. How many people who eat sausage understand the labor that goes in to slaughtering a hog. It's hard, back-breaking work.

And that's a huge part of the problem too. People living lives that have nothing to do with the natural world. Who are so far removed from their food sources that they have no connection to it. Who don't know what a cow's flank feels like when you're milking her. Who don't know the feel of the skin of an apple when it's fresh off the tree and not polished to make it look pretty for market. Who don't know the horror of being chased by the goose who guards the manure pile 

Farmers are at the frontline, they are not the enemy. No farmer enjoys killing the animals they raise, but they're probably the least hypocrites among us.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> In puzzled, not along ago you said this
> 
> "The life of a fighting bull is arguably much nicer than the life of a factory farmed meat bull.
> They live out in fields undisturbed and then have one bad day (well, very bad).
> ...


Wow Kim... going back to try and catch me eh?

I think my quote says *factory* farmed animals, if it doesn't that's what I meant. 
The calves I was referring to were the ones on my friend's farm who lived outside, who lived well.

I'm sure if you look around you'll find lots of other examples of me contradicting myself, what with being an imperfect human and all. 
Oh... if you look close enough you will also see me talking about being taken to bullfights most of my childhood and how that more than anything probably contributed to me becoming a vegetarian at a very young age (still am). Because I saw exactly what it meant for me to tuck in to a hamburger, and I knew on some level I didn't want anything to do with that.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Wow Kim... going back to try and catch me eh?
> 
> .


No, just wondering which is correct. I'm glad your local calves are kept well but many , many aren't.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> One of the healthiest ways to keep calves


Yes but they need to be healthy so they can be slaughtered . Its not a good quality of life how ever short it is . My rabbits had bigger pens than those calves.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

The single calf pens is certainly better than the veal crate in dark barns which existed years back but is it good enough? if dogs were kept like this we would complain. perhaps lambs are luckier , they get to run around and ply in the fields unless it snows .


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> No, just wondering which is correct. I'm glad your local calves are kept well but many , many aren't.


Neither is 'correct'
I'm just sharing my views.
I don't think dairy farmers are evil.
I don't think me avoiding dairy makes me more ethical than someone who doesn't.
I think there is a big difference between factory farmed meat and dairy and sustainable farming or subsistence farming.

Honestly I posted as I was laughing at myself because I don't buy dairy or plant based milk, but I order off Amazon in order to not do so. 
And I bet most of us are a ball of contradictions that way if we were more honest about it.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

MollySmith said:


> People don't tend to donate oat milk to food banks, and people who use them have little choice. *sigh* impossible isn't it?


I have contemplated this but my worry is that because the proportion of vegans in our general population is low (and probably the same for people using food banks, presumably?) it would go to waste or someone may have no option other than to just have it but not like it very much. Hopefully that makes sense. The food banks never include dairy alternatives or gluten free options etc in their advisory lists. Maybe I'll try some long life soy milk next time  I'm sure there a lactose intolerant people who would appreciate it too.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Yes but they need to be healthy so they can be slaughtered . Its not a good quality of life how ever short it is . My rabbits had bigger pens than those calves.


They are only kept in those for a very short time. before (usually) being moved to open airy barns in groups, or out into the fields in summer


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Its just weird though when you really think about it....even for the most well kept dairy cows.
Somebody is impregnating an animal, taking the baby away (which is then killed and eaten) so they can extract its breast milk for human consumption.
No matter how 'humane' you think the farmers sound it still sounds incredibly dodgy and more then a little bit gross to me.:Bored


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> I didn't read what you quoted the way it came across.
> 
> Honestly your term "lower tier supermarket" sound horribly elitist and I kind of recoiled at it a little. I've never heard that term before.
> I live in rural America. I'd have to drive 45 miles up the interstate to get to the "upper tier" supermarket - would that be Whole Foods? Trader Joes? I go there for fun to see what they have but even if it was 5 miles away I certainly can't afford to shop there all the time.
> ...


To save going back.... Tiers is how the _report_ evaluates, not my language. They have to use some definition.

My point _is the same as yours_, we're ALL culplable in some form (me included) but _we could if we were enabled with information_, not guilt, _choose_ to make other shopping choices that might might drive chains to also make better, ethical choices _if_ we are able to depending in our budgets (bear in mind I volunteer at food bank which appears to be forgotten in the verbal pile on and support The Big Issue Foundation, a charity that helps homeless people to get back on their feet). I've just changed the brand of the dairy milk my husband has (see!!) to one that is reported to be better than the one he did have that was more expensive due to reading the links I shared.

And yes we do all end up in corporates. But some are better than others. And with information we can, if we _choose_ to decide to do support the B corps which aren't always elite but often more human.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> To save going back.... Tiers is how the _report_ evaluates, not my language. They have to use some definition.
> 
> My point _is the same as yours_, we're ALL culplable in some form (me included) but _we could if we were enabled with information_, not guilt, _choose_ to make other shopping choices that might might drive chains to also make better, ethical choices _if_ we are able to depending in our budgets (bear in mind I volunteer at food bank which appears to be forgotten in the verbal pile on and support The Big Issue Foundation, a charity that helps homeless people to get back on their feet). I've just changed the brand of the dairy milk my husband has (see!!) to one that is reported to be better than the one he did have that was more expensive due to reading the links I shared.
> 
> And yes we do all end up in corporates. But some are better than others. And with information we can, if we _choose_ to decide to do support the B corps which aren't always elite but often more human.


Well I got what you said  It made me feel uncomfortable but I should be. I don't have a great deal of money, yet recognised and understand consumer power. I also looked up the farm - I expect that got missed too . You can sponsor a cow, how cool is that!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

bmr10 said:


> I have contemplated this but my worry is that because the proportion of vegans in our general population is low (and probably the same for people using food banks, presumably?) it would go to waste or someone may have no option other than to just have it but not like it very much. Hopefully that makes sense. The food banks never include dairy alternatives or gluten free options etc in their advisory lists. Maybe I'll try some long life soy milk next time  I'm sure there a lactose intolerant people who would appreciate it too.


We get a fair bit of oat milk here but not much for g/f. Being g/f I do notice this and will pop in something but you're right it's or vega is not often on the lists as a want. I'll ask around and report back! But not all things are obviously gluten free, some M&S stuff is for example (am I in danger of being elite.. oh well ) but not under the free-from range.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

People need to know the realities of farming, etc. so they can choose whether or not to continue to buy and consume the products.


MollySmith said:


> View attachment 484372


Indeed 

It doesn't hurt to be informed. We can then make our own choices on what we are willing to accept or ignore.

I was one of those getting Asda deliveries in early Lockdown… couldn't get a delivery from Waitrose or M&S, sadly. With some insight from @MollySmith, I've ditched Asda and other supermarkets for their negative eco and welfare credentials and I shop mostly at the latter 2 now and that's actually made me less wasteful because they do cost more.

Same with the info on avoiding plastics and refill stores.

Became veggie years ago having been caught out by a scene at a slaughterhouse on Countryfile.

Gave up dairy and eggs following a thread by RPH started in 2017, I think?

Far from perfect, definitely, but trying ….


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> People need to know the realities of farming, etc. so they can choose whether or not to continue to buy and consume the products.
> 
> Indeed
> 
> ...


Sadly I couldn't afford to shop at M and S or Waitrose if I tried...I don't have food waste as a rule and shop as best I can. Yes I use a farmer's market and local farm.
I adore make up but one time I didn't use any due to ethical reasons, I do now. That was many moons ago.

I went to the website where lower tiers were mentioned. I never saw a balanced view and felt it was pure marketing. Lots of bias and with the words lower tier marketing I thought, that's just one way to make people feel humble and worthless. The thing is, most people try their best which has been said.

Yesterday I hold my hands up a felt I was being told as an adult, a parent, a carer, what label you want to put on me, I am doing terrible because I use low tier supermarkets or supermarkets in general


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

lullabydream said:


> Sadly I couldn't afford to shop at M and S or Waitrose if I tried...I don't have food waste as a rule and shop as best I can. Yes I use a farmer's market and local farm.
> I adore make up but one time I didn't use any due to ethical reasons, I do now. That was many moons ago.
> 
> I went to the website where lower tiers were mentioned. I never saw a balanced view and felt it was pure marketing. Lots of bias and with the words lower tier marketing I thought, that's just one way to make people feel humble and worthless. The thing is, most people try their best which has been said.
> ...


I'm a bit "I'll do me … you do you".

I look at things from all directions, then please myself and live with my choices


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> Sadly I couldn't afford to shop at M and S or Waitrose if I tried...I don't have food waste as a rule and shop as best I can. Yes I use a farmer's market and local farm.
> I adore make up but one time I didn't use any due to ethical reasons, I do now. That was many moons ago.
> 
> I went to the website where lower tiers were mentioned. I never saw a balanced view and felt it was pure marketing. Lots of bias and with the words lower tier marketing I thought, that's just one way to make people feel humble and worthless. The thing is, most people try their best which has been said.
> ...


If you have a family to feed and limited time/resources, yet do the best you can, you have no reason whatsoever to feel you're not doing well, any more than those who do have time and money at their disposal are entitled to take the moral high ground.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> Sadly I couldn't afford to shop at M and S or Waitrose if I tried...I don't have food waste as a rule and shop as best I can. Yes I use a farmer's market and local farm.
> I adore make up but one time I didn't use any due to ethical reasons, I do now. That was many moons ago.
> 
> I went to the website where lower tiers were mentioned. I never saw a balanced view and felt it was pure marketing. Lots of bias and with the words lower tier marketing I thought, that's just one way to make people feel humble and worthless. The thing is, most people try their best which has been said.
> ...


My apologies. My post was selectively misquoted throughout this and it s awful that this made you feel terrible. That was never my intention. I had to walk away because I was cross with the direction this was taking into blame and in doing so it ended going that way and this space shouldn't be like that, goodness knows we've all been through enough. My aim was only to share information and to point out how complicated it is, that we all try to do better and often we don't have the choices. As I said, I volunteer at foodbanks, help with the Big Issue and have once in my life had nothing.

The word tier was not used by me but as a measure by the organisation and a term to define them.It isn't a great term I agree but in their defence the Ethical Consumer along with others are independent with their facts, but you raise a very impportant point that I am very much aware of, that being ethical should never be about budget and for all, but sadly it's not and that's unfair. I'm very sorry for that.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

lullabydream said:


> Sadly I couldn't afford to shop at M and S or Waitrose if I tried...I don't have food waste as a rule and shop as best I can. Yes I use a farmer's market and local farm.
> I adore make up but one time I didn't use any due to ethical reasons, I do now. That was many moons ago.
> 
> I went to the website where lower tiers were mentioned. I never saw a balanced view and felt it was pure marketing. Lots of bias and with the words lower tier marketing I thought, that's just one way to make people feel humble and worthless. The thing is, most people try their best which has been said.
> ...


Your not alone another lower tier shopper here . I love Waitrose and M&S but let's face it a big shop is nearly double.

A random thought if everyone suddenly only bought organic/top tier would we be able to produce enough to feed the country ? Obviously they need more land and space ?

I don't like cows milk so get oat barrista but it is a luxury also double the price. If I had a family to feed I'd have to go cows milk.

Next winter many will be choosing between heat and food. I feel unfortunately ethics will be the least of people's concerns.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Rafa said:


> If you have a family to feed and limited time/resources, yet do the best you can, you have no reason whatsoever to feel you're not doing well, any more than those who do have time and money at their disposal are entitled to take the moral high ground.


Agreed. Nobody has the right to take a moral high ground or twist words to make anyone feel terrible.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Rafa said:


> If you have a family to feed and limited time/resources, yet do the best you can, you have no reason whatsoever to feel you're not doing well, any more than those who do have time and money at their disposal are entitled to take the moral high ground.


Just because one has time and money at their disposal doesn't automatically mean they are taking the moral high ground though.

I consider myself fortunate now at 61 to have a bit of extra cash … but have struggled financially in the past.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Boxer123 said:


> A random thought if everyone suddenly only bought organic/top tier would we be able to produce enough to feed the country ? Obviously they need more land and space ?


This most likely depends upon the species of whatever the food item is or where it originated from or animal derived. The UK has lots and lots of unused land that is suitable for crops or animals. I'd be inclined to say yes but you'd have to delve into specific figures such as those related to cows alone for example.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

MollySmith said:


> My post was selectively misquoted


I'm sorry what?
I don't believe I misquoted you?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> I'm sorry what?
> I don't believe I misquoted you?


did I mention you specifically?


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

I am not sure why a report categorising the ethics of supermarkets is seen as offensive. If shopping at a place that scores low ethically is all you can afford then that’s all that you can afford. I don’t think it is self-righteous to strive to do the best within our means, which is what every poster on this thread has unanimously agreed on thus far. 

Many of us will have bought clothes from fast fashion brands who use sweatshops to produce clothing. For some of us this is all we can afford. This does not negate the reality that, ethically, these places are awful.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

bmr10 said:


> I am not sure why a report categorising the ethics of supermarkets is seen as offensive. If shopping at a place that scores low ethically is all you can afford then that's all that you can afford. I don't think it is self-righteous to strive to do the best within our means, which is what every poster on this thread has unanimously agreed on thus far.
> 
> Many of us will have bought clothes from fast fashion brands who use sweatshops to produce clothing. For some of us this is all we can afford. This does not negate the reality that, ethically, these places are awful.


I think I'm seen as offensive to be fair @bmr10 and living on a moral high ground with probably some degree of self importance which is not the case at all but I'm aware I'm detested by some. I'm that thoughtful I'll report myself if I must. I suspect that those people will now quote me to say I am indeed self important.

It doesn't matter if I've said as you have rightly pointed out that we agree on, apparently for some it's irresponsible to share information that may aid those who may like to read it. I'm not going to sit here for several hours defending myself when I'm none of those things. I have a business to run and apparently need to earn enough to pay my mythical butler who doesn't shop at M&S and Waitrose.

I'm simply very sorry to have upset @lullabydream by starting a strand that was was being helpful and it's escalated to something it was never meant to be. That's typical of some threads here and I should have predicted it. It is not the first time that's happened.

For that reason, I'm out which is probably the intention.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Now I feel an idiot for looking here again 
I didn't believe anybody misquoted anything...again with things like this being said and it wasn't me attitude just feels like am beneath everyone as I definitely never saw anyone quoting anything without context and still people feel the need to state what they are doing because of that low supermarkets.

Being independent doesn't mean there is no bias especially even so on the subject matter. I don't like the ethical consumer and I wish it wasn't used here as a Bible. Pure marketing


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

See I have hungry step kids and a crumbing house. Good job poor pay. I don't feel bad about anything said here. I find the EC useful and Moral Fibres also. It's not the magazine or reporting at fault, or anyone on here, but the system. That's the stupid thing. Asda cut prices and cut welfare. They could take less profits and make good milk at the same price.

I do not think any member took the moral high ground but there is story telling that has gone rapidly off-topic into bias. It was simply a report, not the dammed Bible for heaven's sake! I have been caught up in that behaviour here too. People filled in the gaps in my narrative over the Black Lives Matter. This isn't acceptable and verges on bullish.

@bmr10 I also read it that the forum do agree! I don't think anyone else has spotted that so far!


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

bmr10 said:


> This most likely depends upon the species of whatever the food item is or where it originated from or animal derived. The UK has lots and lots of unused land that is suitable for crops or animals. I'd be inclined to say yes but you'd have to delve into specific figures such as those related to cows alone for example.


So all "unused" land you would have given over to farmland? I'm not sure that's a good idea, I'd say unused, unfarmed land is good for wildlife? And for people to walk in.

Organic etc is nice if you can afford it. It often does come across that anyone who buys from these "lower tier" supermarkets should hang their heads in shame, when often its all you can afford. 
I am lactose intolerant so have lactose free cows milk from aldi or lidl because it is cheap and what I can afford. Oat milk etc just isn't the same.

If you can buy from local farmers markets that's good, if you can buy organic that's good too. But everyone can only do what they can and for some that just is not possible


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> I think I'm seen as offensive to be fair @bmr10 and living on a moral high ground with probably some degree of self importance which is not the case at all but I'm aware I'm detested by some. I'm that thoughtful I'll report myself if I must. I suspect that those people will now quote me to say I am indeed self important.
> 
> It doesn't matter if I've said as you have rightly pointed out that we agree on, apparently for some it's irresponsible to share information that may aid those who may like to read it. I'm not going to sit here for several hours defending myself when I'm none of those things. I have a business to run and apparently need to earn enough to pay my mythical butler who doesn't shop at M&S and Waitrose.
> 
> ...


It is up to others to chose how they understand the words. One can only provide so much clarity. An apology may never be enough and this forum will always have its cliques. This is a fact of life on PF.

(I do find it ironic that EC, MF and other links are seen as spin when their manifesto is to improve human rights for one! Better than some of the dubious sources on here!)


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

HarlequinCat said:


> So all "unused" land you would have given over to farmland? I'm not sure that's a good idea, I'd say unused, unfarmed land is good for wildlife? And for people to walk in.
> 
> Organic etc is nice if you can afford it. It often does come across that anyone who buys from these "lower tier" supermarkets should hang their heads in shame, when often its all you can afford.
> I am lactose intolerant so have lactose free cows milk from aldi or lidl because it is cheap and what I can afford. Oat milk etc just isn't the same.
> ...


I didn't say "all" the unused land /: I said that Britain has a lot of unused land, some of which could be used for crops and animals. This happens anyway. I didn't make an argument as to whether this is right or not I was simply replying to a comment questioning if it was possible.

I fail to see how classifying a supermarket as low for ethical consideration is offensive. It feels like you have not read my post #49 where I state " I don't think it is self-righteous to strive to do the best within our means, which is what every poster on this thread has unanimously agreed on thus far.". I also stated that if poorly ranked supermarkets are all you can afford then that's all you can afford, bottom line. You can only perform within your own limitations. I shop at ASDA and Tesco each week (usually ASDA because it's next to my work) and I don't find it at all offensive for these supermarkets to be branded as poorly performing ethics-wise….. because they are. I don't recycle my contact lenses. This contributes to pollution. I also wear single use masks more often that reusable ones which also contributes to pollution. I don't eat meat but chose to own a cat knowing it would require meat, which contributes to global warming and (in my opinion) animal suffering. Would I find it offensive if someone pointed out these facts to me??? No?? I would simply state that it's my life and that those are indeed facts, lol.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

bmr10 said:


> I didn't say "all" the unused land /: I said that Britain has a lot of unused land, some of which could be used for crops and animals. This happens anyway. I didn't make an argument as to whether this is right or not I was simply replying to a comment questioning if it was possible.
> 
> I fail to see how classifying a supermarket as low for ethical consideration is offensive. It feels like you have not read my post #49 where I state " I don't think it is self-righteous to strive to do the best within our means, which is what every poster on this thread has unanimously agreed on thus far.". I also stated that if poorly ranked supermarkets are all you can afford then that's all you can afford, bottom line. You can only perform within your own limitations. I shop at ASDA and Tesco each week (usually ASDA because it's next to my work) and I don't find it at all offensive for these supermarkets to be branded as poorly performing ethics-wise….. because they are. I don't recycle my contact lenses. This contributes to pollution. I also wear single use masks more often that reusable ones which also contributes to pollution. I don't eat meat but chose to own a cat knowing it would require meat, which contributes to global warming and (in my opinion) animal suffering. Would I find it offensive if someone pointed out these facts to me??? No?? I would simply state that it's my life and that those are indeed facts, lol.


Just an observation of my own, more and more green belt land is being given over to housing too. So to me, is something that needs protecting .

The rest of it I didn't directly quote you, which is why I left a gap. Again my own thoughts. Not everyone is of the same opinions


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

HarlequinCat said:


> Just an observation of my own, more and more green belt land is being given over to housing too. So to me, is something that needs protecting .
> 
> The rest of it I didn't directly quote you, which is why I left a gap. Again my own thoughts. Not everyone is of the same opinions


Housing is inevitable as our population grows. It could be slowed down if we moved towards more high-rise living but that's not everyone's cup of tea. In terms of land used for crops and animals I personally wish to see the funding of lab-grown meat or insect based food. Reducing the number of livestock on our fields would dramatically cut the amount of crops required to feed the nation. This would free up land for conservation. I'm hoping that this will become the way of the future.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

MollySmith said:


> did I mention you specifically?


Oh come on... but no one else quoted you and mentioned tiers. I'm assuming it's me you're referring to. If I'm wrong, happy to be corrected, and if I indeed misquoted you, also happy to be corrected, but I'm not going to play games.

FWIW, I understand "lower tier" is not your term. I wasn't calling you elitist, but I still think the term is. Honestly I find a lot of the Ethical Consumer and similar stuff kind of elitist. I'm glad others don't, but I do.

And that's part of the problem too. We're so disconnected from each other and the extreme differences of our experiences that we struggle to identify with each other and something like saying you have experience with fighting bulls gets stored away for later ammunition  <-- mostly joking with that, please don't take it seriously Kim


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Oh come on... but no one else quoted you and mentioned tiers. I'm assuming it's me you're referring to. If I'm wrong, happy to be corrected, and if I indeed misquoted you, also happy to be corrected, but I'm not going to play games.
> 
> FWIW, I understand "lower tier" is not your term. I wasn't calling you elitist, but I still think the term is. Honestly I find a lot of the Ethical Consumer and similar stuff kind of elitist. I'm glad others don't, but I do.
> 
> And that's part of the problem too. We're so disconnected from each other and the extreme differences of our experiences that we struggle to identify with each other and something like saying you have experience with fighting bulls gets stored away for later ammunition  <-- mostly joking with that, please don't take it seriously Kim


I thought this was a discussion thread relating to cruelty in the dairy industry.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Pawscrossed said:


> I thought this was a discussion thread relating to cruelty in the dairy industry.


Which led to a discussion of whether plant based milks are any more ethical than dairy milks, which led to a discussion of supermarkets and where you source your food, which led to a classification of some supermarkets as "low tier," which is what I'm responding to.

In case anyone is keeping score, which I'm sure some are. I've been a vegetarian longer than some posters have been alive and I haven't eaten dairy in years.

I'm just not in to vilifying people. I'm friends with farmers and hunters, and they're good people. I sometimes feel we forget that farmers, hunters, and salt of the earth types have way more respect for the natural world than people realize. They have to. It's their livelihood.

Is the dairy industry cruel? Yes it is. Does it need reforms and do we need to reconsider our consumption to lean more towards sustainability? Absolutely. Hell, if it were up to me, if you can't kill it and dress it yourself you don't get to eat it. Don't know how to milk a cow and churn butter? No ice-cream for you. That's how I would solve things.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Could you please keep personal argument out of this thread. Differing opinions can be expressed without the need for sniping.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

bmr10 said:


> Housing is inevitable as our population grows. It could be slowed down if we moved towards more high-rise living but that's not everyone's cup of tea. In terms of land used for crops and animals I personally wish to see the funding of lab-grown meat or insect based food. Reducing the number of livestock on our fields would dramatically cut the amount of crops required to feed the nation. This would free up land for conservation. I'm hoping that this will become the way of the future.


I won't say much more as this is going on a bit of a tangent about housing etc, but yes housing is required, but building on greenbelt is unnecessary at the moment. There are lots of empty houses, lots of brown field sites and areas that could be redeveloped. 
Lab grown meat would be a very hard sell. Mainly because people would distrust what lab grown meat would do in the long term. 
Insects also. 
Totally eradicating traditional meat from everyones diet is extreme to say the least. I would think encouraging people to reduce the amount of meat we eat a little, and reducing waste would be a better compromise


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Not all land in this country can have stock or crops grown on it. Scotland for instance has loads of land not doing anything but it it’s poor quality as in nothing much will grow unless it’s heavily fertilised or it’s on steep slopes meaning any crops grown cannot be easily harvested let alone put in in the first place. 
Farmers are being encouraged to take land out of production and allow the area to rewild totally or plant trees. I believe this could be a retrograde step if a lot of land is taken out of production as more food (both meat and crops) will have to be imported and this could easily mean from countries whose animal welfare is dreadful and crops are sprayed with god knows what and that’s before food miles are taken into account. Look what happened during WW2 when imported foods largely stopped and the UK had to rely on what was able to be grown in this country, many people went hungry. The uk population is larger now and a lot of farmland has been built on, surviving on what is grown in this country would be very difficult.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

HarlequinCat said:


> I won't say much more as this is going on a bit of a tangent about housing etc, but yes housing is required, but building on greenbelt is unnecessary at the moment. There are lots of empty houses, lots of brown field sites and areas that could be redeveloped.
> Lab grown meat would be a very hard sell. Mainly because people would distrust what lab grown meat would do in the long term.
> Insects also.
> Totally eradicating traditional meat from everyones diet is extreme to say the least. I would think encouraging people to reduce the amount of meat we eat a little, and reducing waste would be a better compromise


That is understandable. It is personally the way I hope the future will progress to but it certainly won't happen within my lifetime. However, I feel that eventually due to global warming we may be boxed into a corner around meat consumption. The general public's hesitation around artificial meat is understandable but insects are the primary protein source for many cultures. Hopefully, this evidence can be used for educational purposes and we may see a cultural shift in what people feel comfortable eating.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Just like to put a thank you here
@MollySmith
Because of you making me think (despite having a vegan Dil) about vegans and low incomes
Today I put 4 unsweetened soy milk and 4 unsweetened oat milk, into the food bank bin, instead of the usual 8 normal uht milk

Thank you for making me think a little outside the normal box

Edit to correct autocorrect


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

HarlequinCat said:


> Lab grown meat would be a very hard sell.


I listened to a podcast with one of the two people in the country seriously working on lab grown meat and it was really eye opening.

I agree with you, I think most people do recoil at the through of meat grown in vats like beer, but.... Once it becomes as cheap (or cheaper) than factory farmed meat, and it's proven to have fewer outbreaks of salmonella and ecoli, because it will, there's no slaughtering process where there can be cross-contamination with intestines and fecal matter, and enough people get on board...

I mean, if you had asked me in the 80's if I saw a need for a phone that I could carry with me all the time and do word puzzles on, I would have laughed in your face. Or another one I think about often, bottled water. That you could put bottles of water in vending machines and have people pay $2 for them - again, I would have laughed in your face. But here we are!

Another point he made about lab meat is that when it does become more mainstream, and he's convinced it will, it will become a conversation of "no, I want my meat from an animal that had to die" vs. "sure, I'll take the lab made meat." Sounds weird and crazy, but I hold out hope that in my lifetime we will see it.

And yes, I do worry about what will become of the farmers and ranchers, but again, I remember my grandmother (who was born in 1903) talking about the transition from horse and buggy to automobiles and how the horse industry didn't die, it just shifted. Farriers went in to other types of metal working, barn hands went in to other types of labor. It wasn't a loss of jobs, but a shift in jobs.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Hell, if it were up to me, if you can't kill it and dress it yourself you don't get to eat it. Don't know how to milk a cow and churn butter? No ice-cream for you. That's how I would solve things.


Well, that's me screwed, then. I'm an IT specialist, so I guess I'm restricted to computer chips... 

Unless you mean in terms of knowing the theory, in which case there is very little off the menu for me.  I'm a social history buff, and even trained in field archery, though actually hunting with a bow is illegal in the UK.

But joking aside, the reality is that food production has rarely been like that except in very isolated circumstances. For some to produce and some to buy is far more efficient. I mean, I'm not even allowed to keep chickens under the terms of my house deeds, so where would I keep a cow? My garden is pretty big by current UK standards, but it's still only 56ft long and quite narrow, with a big bit taken up by my craft shed. Even if I turned the whole thing over to veg I doubt I could grow enough to feed me for the whole year, and that's before we get started on things like grain for bread. Most modern UK gardens are even smaller, and then you have the people with no gardens at all (flats etc.)

So yeah, nice pipe dream, but impossible in practicality.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

We need to start seeing milk as the luxury it is again.
With that I think there should be a minimum price that actually goes to the farmer.
We need it to be profitable for the smaller herd again and then I think greater welfare will naturally come back.
How many family farms have had to ease because the price per litre was actually at a loss?
Our bottled milk comes from a farm 2 miles away but that doesn't help with items that contain milk that we buy from the supermarket.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jesthar said:


> Well, that's me screwed, then. I'm an IT specialist, so I guess I'm restricted to computer chips...
> 
> Unless you mean in terms of knowing the theory, in which case there is very little off the menu for me.  I'm a social history buff, and even trained in field archery, though actually hunting with a bow is illegal in the UK.
> 
> ...


My post was tongue in cheek. Sorry, I thought that was more obvious than it was.

There's definitely a nostalgic part of me that would love to go back to a time where in this country at least, and others I've lived in, you live mainly off the land in your area and what you and your neighbors can produce. You eat seasonally, and what is available near you. When the cow has a calf, you have milk. When she doesn't, you don't. Or you borrow some from your neighbor who's cow does have a calf. Late summer you spend days and days "putting up" veggies and fruit preserves for the winter - the process of canning and jarring food so it will store long periods. When the basement stores were gone, they were gone. In this country that wasn't so long ago. My mom's 85, she grew up that way.

I also think we need to return to having a better connection with our food, where it comes from and what goes in to producing it. Because when you're connected to something you have more respect for it. There's a fantastic interview with the singer Jewel. She talks about growing up on a homestead in Alaska and having to carry water up from the creek to the house. She says people don't understand how much water weighs. How heavy it is to carry. How much you're using to take a bath, brush your teeth, boil potatoes....

So yes, people should know what it takes to turn milk in to cheese or ice cream. What it takes to slaughter a hog so you can have your bacon sarnie, and yes if it were up to me, it would have to be first hand experience because reading about slaughtering a hog is not the same as feeling the weight of the intestines, reading about milking a cow is not the same as smelling the mixture of barn, cow, and fresh milk in your nostrils.

Is any of this realistic? Probably not. Or maybe so if the apocalypse goes the way some pessimists are predicting it. We'll have a massive population die off and those left are going to have to learn to survive without grocery stores and the whole discussion of what tier that store is won't matter


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> Just like to it a thank you here
> @MollySmith
> Because of you making me think (despite having a vegan Dil) about vegans and low incomes
> Today I put 4 unsweetened soy milk and 4 unsweetened oat milk, into the food bank bin, instead of the usual 8 normal uht milk
> ...


I think that was only ever the intention


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> My post was tongue in cheek. Sorry, I thought that was more obvious than it was.
> 
> There's definitely a nostalgic part of me that would love to go back to a time where in this country at least, and others I've lived in, you live mainly off the land in your area and what you and your neighbors can produce. You eat seasonally, and what is available near you. When the cow has a calf, you have milk. When she doesn't, you don't. Or you borrow some from your neighbor who's cow does have a calf. Late summer you spend days and days "putting up" veggies and fruit preserves for the winter - the process of canning and jarring food so it will store long periods. When the basement stores were gone, they were gone. In this country that wasn't so long ago. My mom's 85, she grew up that way.
> 
> ...


Oh, mine was fairly tounge in cheek too.

Anyway, it might be realistic for some areas of the US, but not in the UK, no - I don't think many Americans realise just how small the UK is in relative terms. The UK as a whole is slightly smaller than Oregon in terms of acreage, and England (the biggest country in the UK) roughly equates to Alabama. So yeah, we're TINY.

That being said, it's not so long ago here either when a lot of people raised chickens, pigeons or even pigs in the back yard at home - my parents and grandparents remember those days when the whole neighbourhood would get together to slaughter and dress all the pigs. They used to say the only part of a pig you couldn't use was the squeal. Most of that is banned now, of course. I do have some experience of a sheep farm, oddly - used to ride a friend's horse who was kept on one, pitched in a few times when they needed a hand.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I wasn't offended by the link I was taken aback by the term lower tier which I know isn't @MollySmith term I just haven't heard of it before. I love you for your passion @MollySmith. This isn't a dig it's just a musing.

I do think given the choice most of us would shop at Waitrose or M&S. We know it's more ethical and we know it tastes better. However for many it's not an option.

I also think people are in touch with where their food comes from. 99% of the time I'm vegetarian or vegan. I do come off the wagon occasionally. When I do I feel guilty as I know how it's produced. Sometimes though convenience comes into it.

Today if I'd gone past one I'd have got a maccy ds for lunch because I'm so tired. I work a lot of hours. I'd love my own chickens and to grow my own veg but again have no time. We work long hours and have gardens the size of postage stamps.

Honestly I think most people are good and care about where their food comes from but our society is a loaded dice unevenly weighted towards the wealthy.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Arny said:


> We need to start seeing milk as the luxury it is again.
> With that I think there should be a minimum price that actually goes to the farmer.
> We need it to be profitable for the smaller herd again and then I think greater welfare will naturally come back.
> How many family farms have had to ease because the price per litre was actually at a loss?
> Our bottled milk comes from a farm 2 miles away but that doesn't help with items that contain milk that we buy from the supermarket.


Agree. 
Our milk use to come from the farm next door and was delivered to the back door by the farmer who walked a hundred yards to drop it off and come in for a cuppa before setting off on his milk round. I helped out a number of times doing the milk round, could have helped in the dairy but my long term dislike of milk and the smell it had meant I couldn't bare to be in there at all. Quite often helped bringing the cows in (Jerseys), would have liked to do some tractor work, but his land is mainly sloping and he wouldn't let me due to the high risk. he eventually had to give up farming as he wasn't getting much for the milk that went off in the tanker and he had to keep his milk prices competitive with the supermarkets despite it being a higher quality product. He tried a bit of beef farming, but the land here isn't that great for fattening stock and he didn't have enough barn space to keep the cattle in during the cold wet months of the year. None of his land had artificial fertilisers put on it, just slurry and barn muck, ponged a bit for a while but it didn't last long and it's something that is part of living in the country. Miss the farm, used to get loads of swallows due to the flies in the summer, now don't get any. Farm house now a posh expensive house and much of the land is left not doing much and growing scrub apart from some contract sheep grazing.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

It's not the farmers or the consumers that are the main problem here. It's the system set up to make the rich richer.

Us poor plebs haven't a hope in hell of making much of a difference, apart to our own consciences


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Boxer123 said:


> A random thought if everyone suddenly only bought organic/top tier would we be able to produce enough to feed the country ? Obviously they need more land and space ?


Ive read a statistic before that apparently if we got rid of all the farm animals we eat and just ate the food that is fed to them it would be enough to feed everybody on the planet which is crazy if you think about it!:Wacky You'd wind up using less farmland and way less water too, but I suppose people dont like change on that kind of scale!
Plant milks can be expensive....at least I think so. TBH the one I use seems to be permanently on special offer and only costs a few pence more then cow milk. Plus vegans are pretty lucky in that they can offset some costs as the basics are so cheap. I mean beans, lentils, rice, potatoes, etc are very cheap.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> Ive read a statistic before that apparently if we got rid of all the farm animals we eat and just ate the food that is fed to them it would be enough to feed everybody on the planet


We would also have to rework how we farm. 
In the US over the years farmers have had to change the crops they grow to keep up with the demand. Monocrop culture is terrible for the land, farmers don't particularly like it, and would much rather have a rotation of different crops, but the way the demand has changed, most of what farmers are growing now is livestock feed. Soy and corn. 
All the complaints about soy and the soy industry - lots of people don't realize that soy is not being grown for tofu, it's livestock feed.

But yes, the plant milk process/processing is really water heavy and in areas like California that are already using way more water than is sustainable it's not really the best alternative. I think it's the Danon company that owns Horizon organic (dairy products) and Silk (dairy alternatives) so here in the US at least, buying dairy alternatives is basically jumping from the frying pan in to the fire in terms of your environmental choices. 
Doing it for health reasons is a different matter.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Another thing with crop growing is fertilising the soil and dealing with pest and diseases and unwanted plants growing within the crop which will effect yield.
Fertilisers that are man made are escalating in price and the minerals etc required need to make them and factories to make them use fuels. The most natural and currently easily provided fertiliser is slurry from cows.
Pests and diseases can decimate crops. Take the flea beetle for instance which targets oil seed rape. The treatment previously was neonicontoids which are now banned in the uk and some other countries. There are various strategies in dealing with this such as planting early as possible after harvest, however wood pigeons also like to eat oil seed rape and can clear a field amazingly quickly. Bird scarers are used to try and scare them away, but people don’t like to hear them and there are rules and regs around usage.
Weed killing sprays are used to try and control weeds, but are becoming less effective and many more are being banned. Ploughing fields after harvest does help to control some weeds, but ploughing also damages the soil, worms and microbes and there is a push to low or no till in order to protect soil health.
A way of increasing fertility is to grow break crops, although not all types have much value at the end or have a lasting impact. Mixed farms with crop rotation works well, but if no animals naturally fertilising fields it will mean a heavy reliance on made made fertilisers and the high costs associated with this. Monoculture will effect farmland birds and insects greatly.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> Plant milks can be expensive....at least I think so.


The ones I put in the food bank trolley were
55p for a litre of unsweetened soy milk
And
£1 for one litre of unsweetened oat milk
Both from Tesco, cos I was there
Whether Aldi or Lidl would be even cheaper I don't know, but neither have a food bank collection point anyway 
Just to add, the reason I got both, rather than all soy, which wouldve been cheaper, so I could've got more is because 
I was told, as a cancer survivor, I should avoid soya products and, strangely, green tea, so I thought there may just be some vegans/vegetarians, using the food bank, that were told the same


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

mrs phas said:


> The ones I put in the food bank trolley were
> 55p for a litre of unsweetened soy milk
> And
> £1 for one litre of unsweetened oat milk
> ...


I'm not sure if you still live by this rule but I just wanted to reply in case you do- you can eat or drink soy regardless of cancer history! This may not be of interest to you but perhaps to anyone else on the forum with a previous diagnosis or family history of cancer. This myth exists because soy mimics oestrogen but there is no link between soy and breast cancer. In fact, consumption of soy products is thought to lower the risk of some forms of cancer  That is still incredibly thoughtful of you to provide an alternative to people wishing to avoid it, for whatever reason.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Boxer123 said:


> I wasn't offended by the link I was taken aback by the term lower tier which I know isn't @MollySmith term I just haven't heard of it before. I love you for your passion @MollySmith. This isn't a dig it's just a musing.
> 
> I do think given the choice most of us would shop at Waitrose or M&S. We know it's more ethical and we know it tastes better. However for many it's not an option.
> 
> ...


Thank you and totally agree with you on all points. I admire your balance and way with words.

I'm creeping back (with a tin hat) to say one good thing about this thread is that orders for non dairy milk rose after the documentary and number of people deciding to try vegan food increases too. 
I'm sure that isn't true of anyone using food banks but I have queried this with the food banks in my city and alerted someone I know who runs a Veganuary (I can never spell it!) campaign. He had not thought of it and thinks it very important. It's a small start, who knows.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> Just like to put a thank you here
> @MollySmith
> Because of you making me think (despite having a vegan Dil) about vegans and low incomes
> Today I put 4 unsweetened soy milk and 4 unsweetened oat milk, into the food bank bin, instead of the usual 8 normal uht milk
> ...


Thank you.

I happened to see Lou today. He's a Big Issue vendor who is vegan. He has occasion especially during lockdowns when vendors were not allowed to trade, to use foodbanks and had very little choice but to be vegetarian. I didn't know this about him, but we talked about it as a result of some of the more productive parts of this thread.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> The ones I put in the food bank trolley were
> 55p for a litre of unsweetened soy milk
> And
> £1 for one litre of unsweetened oat milk
> ...


I took my neighbour shopping today and she likes Lidl. They had a food bank donation bin the other side of the tills.

While following her around, I picked up some oat milk, soya milk (54p and 95p, respectively I think), canned pulses, rice, vegan chilli and some cereal … added some toiletries and sanitary products while I was at it, paid and put it all in the collection bin on the way out.

They have quite a good range of foods suitable for vegans and vegetarians in there.

Prompted by your earlier post @mrs phas … so thank you too 

This thread is making a difference, however small


----------



## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> Thank you and totally agree with you on all points. I admire your balance and way with words.
> 
> I'm creeping back (with a tin hat) to say one good thing about this thread is that orders for non dairy milk rose after the documentary and number of people deciding to try vegan food increases too.
> I'm sure that isn't true of anyone using food banks but I have queried this with the food banks in my city and alerted someone I know who runs a Veganuary (I can never spell it!) campaign. He had not thought of it and thinks it very important. It's a small start, who knows.


Thanks for sharing this. That is good news! It is very good to changes taking place because some of the contributors here think beyond themselves.


----------



## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> I took my neighbour shopping today and she likes Lidl. They had a food bank donation bin the other side of the tills.
> 
> While following her around, I picked up some oat milk, soya milk (54p and 95p, respectively I think), canned pulses, rice, vegan chilli and some cereal … added some toiletries and sanitary products while I was at it, paid and put it all in the collection bin on the way out.
> 
> ...


Sanitary products are always on the list here. Both my step daughter and I use period pants (s this TMI?!) so we had unopened packets we could contribute. Apparently the place we get the pants from donate a pair for everyone sold to someone in need.

I have to do my shop tomorrow and following the awareness on here I will be adding gluten free and vegan to my foodbank donation.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

My Sister and her Husband operate a food bank, allied to the Church, and I help out as much as I can.

I am very aware of exactly what recipients prefer and need.


----------



## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

Luckily my food bank is supported with a recipe book. I realised recently that it was created by the business run by @MollySmith…

Her work, and advice, meant families who struggled to use their donated food to last a week were gifted with a smart cookbook especially for them. She persuaded her contacts to sponsor the printing meaning the charity paid nothing. Absolutely £0. In short she doesn’t just talk the talk, she walks it too but seems to never share this so I am. Some members should take note. (I know this to be true, the above is from a good friend who is the grateful head of their fundraising.)


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Good for her.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> Thank you and totally agree with you on all points. I admire your balance and way with words.
> 
> I'm creeping back (with a tin hat) to say one good thing about this thread is that orders for non dairy milk rose after the documentary and number of people deciding to try vegan food increases too.
> I'm sure that isn't true of anyone using food banks but I have queried this with the food banks in my city and alerted someone I know who runs a Veganuary (I can never spell it!) campaign. He had not thought of it and thinks it very important. It's a small start, who knows.


That's good news. I find your info useful.


----------



## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Pawscrossed said:


> (s this TMI?!)


No! Not at all and I think a lot of the food banks at supermarkets are super convenient but leave sanitary items off the list when it's a medical necessity! Thankfully more places are offering them for free now


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bmr10 said:


> I'm not sure if you still live by this rule but I just wanted to reply in case you do- you can eat or drink soy regardless of cancer history! This may not be of interest to you but perhaps to anyone else on the forum with a previous diagnosis or family history of cancer. This myth exists because soy mimics oestrogen but there is no link between soy and breast cancer. In fact, consumption of soy products is thought to lower the risk of some forms of cancer  That is still incredibly thoughtful of you to provide an alternative to people wishing to avoid it, for whatever reason.


Great news, and thank you so much for posting this 
I love tofu, even as an Omni, and used to have it at least twice a week, it goes so far, for such a small block 
I'm in my last year in remission, a clear scan this year and I'm viewed as cancer free, it's only 4 years ago I was told this, so quite recently in the grand scheme of things 
Don't ever think I won't be interested in something educational or informative, learning is always a great and important thing x


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Rafa said:


> My Sister and her Husband operate a food bank, allied to the Church, and I help out as much as I can.
> 
> I am very aware of exactly what recipients prefer and need.


Good for you.

Some of us are/were unaware (or had simply not engaged … I was guilty of that) so are glad of the info being passed on by others, which is a good thing


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Pawscrossed said:


> Luckily my food bank is supported with a recipe book. I realised recently that it was created by the business run by @MollySmith…
> 
> Her work, and advice, meant families who struggled to use their donated food to last a week were gifted with a smart cookbook especially for them. She persuaded her contacts to sponsor the printing meaning the charity paid nothing. Absolutely £0. In short she doesn't just talk the talk, she walks it too but seems to never share this so I am. Some members should take note. (I know this to be true, the above is from a good friend who is the grateful head of their fundraising.)


thank you but it really is just my job. Lots of people do important work too. @Rafa's support with the church is equally as helpful.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Rafa said:


> My Sister and her Husband operate a food bank, allied to the Church, and I help out as much as I can.
> 
> I am very aware of exactly what recipients prefer and need.


Good for you and I agree, knowing is important, otherwise it's just wasteful.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Any donations to a food bank are always, of course, gratefully received, but I do believe there is a case for donating what the people concerned want and need, rather than what we think they should have.

When we talk to recipients of the food, (and we do), they will always say they need the basics, such as bread, milk, eggs, cheese, etc. They ask a lot for tinned vegetables, potatoes, other tinned goods and cereal.

For many of them, they want to be able to give their children a bowl of cereal or some toast before they go to school and to be able to provide a hot meal in the evening.

Truthfully, I have never spoken to one recipient who asked for oatmilk. I'm afraid that environmental awareness is the last of their concerns when they're struggling to feed themselves and their families.

We take food to a number of recipients who have recently been housed after being homeless and they have the very basics. Many don't have a fridge and certainly not a freezer.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Rafa said:


> Any donations to a food bank are always, of course, gratefully received, but I do believe there is a case for donating what the people concerned want and need, rather than what we think they should have.


Absolutely this!

I have found the Trussell Trust website for donations helpful.
Food banks do request food, which for whatever reason maybe in short supply.

Here is the link
https://www.trusselltrust.org/get-involved/ways-to-give/donate-food/


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Rafa said:


> Truthfully, I have never spoken to one recipient who asked for oatmilk. I'm afraid that environmental awareness is the last of their concerns when they're struggling to feed themselves and their families


Taking environmental issues out of the equation then,
What about those who are lactose or casiene intolerant or celiac etc.
Who don't think they can use food banks because they 'dont cater for them'
Obviously all food banks are different, and some better than others, because ours (church run, but dwp/Dr/SS voucher approved )also asks for 'free from' stuff, lentils and other dried pulses, vegetarian and vegan tinned goods, such a shame all aren't so inclusive tbh

They have a very comprehensive and inclusive list and even deliver to old and disabled/ill people

Anyhow, I, and others, digress
Not sure how a thread about dairy production and a panorama programme, suddenly become a pi$$1ng contest about whose food bank is better than whose, or who's the most holier than whom
Shouldn't we just stick to the original point of the thread
Which is that the dairy industry CAN BE vile and cattle within it CAN BE treated awfully and suffer trauma
And
That there are many alternatives, should one wish to stop partaking of dairy

Surely, if people want to debate food banks items, use, and volunteering, then another thread can be started, which should be very popcornable


----------



## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

Rafa said:


> Any donations to a food bank are always, of course, gratefully received, but I do believe there is a case for donating what the people concerned want and need, rather than what we think they should have.
> 
> When we talk to recipients of the food, (and we do), they will always say they need the basics, such as bread, milk, eggs, cheese, etc. They ask a lot for tinned vegetables, potatoes, other tinned goods and cereal.
> 
> ...


Do you know what people who have allergies do? I know a few folk who are coeliac and lactose intolerant. I completely understand that environment isn't a concern but health issues still remain.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Pawscrossed said:


> Do you know what people who have allergies do? I know a few folk who are coeliac and lactose intolerant. I completely understand that environment isn't a concern but health issues still remain.


But then it's easy to ask the people who run the food bank what they need & if anyone has specialist requirements. I've done this by just messaging oin their FB page & they are always willing to highlight specific items


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> But then it's easy to ask the people who run the food bank what they need & if anyone has specialist requirements. I've done this by just messaging oin their FB page & they are always willing to highlight specific items


But if no one ever donates anything, they will just say
Sorry we don't stock that or cater for allergies
And refer you back to SS or your GP
In the meantime
There's still nothing in the larder
Which is why I love our local food bank and it's inclusivity
Rather than support/donate to the Trussell trust and others that are nationwide focused (not saying they're not doing great jobs, just that I believe in Community first)

Edit to add that's my final post re food banks as I just broke the tenet of what I did write


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

If someone asks us for food and mentions they have a specific allergy or intolerance, we will ask the Supermarkets who donate much of our food for products which can be given to those affected, such as lactofree milk or cheese.

I would just say, I did not instigate the discussion about food banks, I merely contributed. Some members were discussing this several pages ago.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> There are a few identifying details here, you might want to edit?


No, it's not his real name.


----------



## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

O2.0 said:


> The ratio I use is 1/4 cup cashews to 1 cup water. I wouldn't think that's a lot of fiber per serving, but it might be for your needs.
> 
> There are tons of recipes online that use a 'nut milk bag' which is basically a very fine strainer. I don't bother straining, I don't have the patience to, but I think that might cut down on the fiber content?


I've googled it and it is a marginal increase in fibre content in comparison to store bought brands  My sister is vegan so this may be a project for us!


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

mrs phas said:


> Don't know about fibre content
> But
> I use hm cashew milk to make Dil vegan 'eggnog' every year
> She reckons it's the best she's tasted
> ...


Ooh recipe please


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Beth78 said:


> Ooh recipe please


I know this is American, so I apologise in advance, it's just the recipe I've always used
I also make it x4 for everything, as I make her a large bottle
Added bonus, no sugar!


1 cup cashews raw or dry-roasted unsalted
4 Medjool dates, pitted
4 cups water
1/4 teaspoon vanilla extract
1/4 teaspoon cinnamon, ground
1/8 teaspoon nutmeg, ground 
1 shot glass of brandy
*Instructions*

Soak the cashews overnight or for at least 4 hours (I let them soak in the fridge, covered, overnight)
When the cashews are ready, add all the ingredients to a high-speed blender. Blend for 1 minute or more. You may need to blend it longer if you have a weaker blender.
Strain the milk using a nut milk bag or fine mesh sieve. (I use a muslin)
Add brandy
Decant into bottle/bottles and give a good shake
Serve with a sprinkle of nutmeg. 
If you make a big bottle as I do, it needs shaking before every use,
Beware it packs a punch


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

bmr10 said:


> <snip>
> The UK has lots and lots of unused land that is suitable for crops or animals.
> <snip>


It does? Where?


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

HarlequinCat said:


> <snip>
> Totally eradicating traditional meat from everyones diet is extreme to say the least. I would think encouraging people to reduce the amount of meat we eat a little, and reducing waste would be a better compromise


Totally eradicating traditional meat is bonkers. There are plenty of places unsuited to arable agriculture which feed cattle & sheep for the meat trade. However that sort of meat is more expensive - sometimes a lot more expensive - that the cheapest meat. However reducing the amount of meat we eat is good for our health as well as the environment.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Arny said:


> If anyone watched the programme this map shows places where calves are left with the cows.
> https://www.cowcalfdairies.co.uk/wh...1GWF2148p_xX77D7h92PYUuGZPMGA-zEwOrJ51WI3EhpQ
> 
> On social media people are arguing about the ethics surrounding oat milk as the used oats are often repurposed for animal feed.


There are several cow with calf dairies:

https://www.cowcalfdairies.co.uk/where-to-buy


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Why do these barns stand empty,
On this old family farm,
And when did farming smaller holdings,
Actually do the country harm,
He was happy with his hundred ewes,
Few horses, hens and sows,
And never really saw the need,
To milk more than thirty cows,
Most of what they ate, he grew,
As DEFRA looks to blame,
He didn't need the plastic tags,
He knew his stock by name,
But he finds himself retiring,
Because his joints are stiff with age,
His sons moved to the city,
Where they pay a proper wage,
So he's in the hands of agents,
And their joy is plain to see,
Not a thought about his lifetimes work,
Just a big fat sellers fee,
They split the farm up into lots,
Such is their endeavour,
Without the sickening realisation,
Another farm is lost forever,
When the farmhouse sells at auction,
Should he really mind?
When it's bought by the very people,
Who have robbed his pension blind?
Its sold with tiny paddocks,
Because they'd like to keep a horse,
But they love the look of foxes,
So they'll never hunt, of course,
They won't like crowing cockerels,
Or the smell of muck being spread,
The winter sound of gunfire,
Or the thought of game shot dead,
These barns have stood a century,
Will soon be filled with glass and steel,
Developers will leave some beams in,
So it has that country feel,
All the strangers move in slowly,
And all the country skills are lost,
Do we think just about the value?
But ignore the long term cost,
He sells the farm and wonders,
What all his works been for,
And how will these new folks manage,
If there comes another war,
When Sainsburys shelves are empty,
There's no wheat or livestock reared,
They will look for farms and farmers,
To find that both have disappeared.

Poem by: Neil Andrew. N.E.W. Ireland


----------



## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> It does? Where?


Apologies, from this article I have discovered majority of England is already used. I'm used to Scotland where we have land suitable for certain veg and various animals that is not used. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41901294


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

My sister is a meat eater but has started to try different plant milks as she gets IBS if she has dairy. Sh


OrientalSlave said:


> There are several cow with calf dairies:
> 
> https://www.cowcalfdairies.co.uk/where-to-buy


Just had a look at this & there is a small holding in Cambridgeshire which is 44mins away from me. They have an open day in August which I might go to if I am free. Be really interesting to hear about their set up ... & see their animals. They have Tamworth pigs which are one of my fave breeds


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Cleo38 said:


> My sister is a meat eater but has started to try different plant milks as she gets IBS if she has dairy. Sh
> 
> Just had a look at this & there is a small holding in Cambridgeshire which is 44mins away from me. They have an open day in August which I might go to if I am free. Be really interesting to hear about their set up ... & see their animals. They have Tamworth pigs which are one of my fave breeds


Bring some apples, nothing better than a pig crunching an apple.


----------



## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> There are several cow with calf dairies:
> 
> https://www.cowcalfdairies.co.uk/where-to-buy


Is that not what I linked :Hilarious


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

OrientalSlave said:


> It does? Where?





Jesthar said:


> I don't think many Americans realise just how small the UK is in relative terms. The UK as a whole is slightly smaller than Oregon in terms of acreage, and England (the biggest country in the UK) roughly equates to Alabama. So yeah, we're TINY.


I was wondering about the UK and all the land they have 

I do realize how tiny the UK is, and it makes me claustrophobic sometimes to think about it. But I agree, most Americans (or Australians or other people from places with giant land masses) don't get it. 
But it just highlights how being environmentally conscious and making ethical choices is very much situation dependent. As I've already mentioned, plant milks in the US are not much of a step up environmentally from dairy milk. Ethically, sure, but as far as environmental damage, the almond milk industry in particular does not have a terrific record.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Beth78 said:


> Bring some apples, nothing better than a pig crunching an apple.


Years ago my sister &I took her kids to a local farm to feed apples to the Kune Kune pigs. We had such a fantastic time, the pigs were lovely, so friendly. I had such a great day


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Arny said:


> Is that not what I linked :Hilarious


It is  
But to be fair I think when threads get long some of us just skip to the end or don't read every post thoroughly. 
It's all good, it's linked twice now, plenty of opportunities for folks to find it


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

bmr10 said:


> Apologies, from this article I have discovered majority of England is already used. I'm used to Scotland where we have land suitable for certain veg and various animals that is not used. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41901294


I looked at a couple of Scottish counties and I reckon the 'natural' areas are mostly hill areas, unsuitable for housing and arable agriculture. However there is grazing on much of them.

Also they are not by a large places people want to live


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Arny said:


> Is that not what I linked :Hilarious


Yes you did!

I also linked the https://www.ahimsamilk.org and https://www.thecalfatfootdairy.co.uk

There is also Treleague in Ruan Minor https://www.facebook.com/TreleagueDairy/


----------



## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> I looked at a couple of Scottish counties and I reckon the 'natural' areas are mostly hill areas, unsuitable for housing and arable agriculture. However there is grazing on much of them.
> 
> Also they are not by a large places people want to live


The hills would affect large scale agriculture I'd imagine yes (though I have seen incredibly steep fields that have been ploughed!). Do you mean people wouldn't want to live due to remoteness? Aren't most farms remote? I'm not sure how it's done in other areas if I'm honest.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

bmr10 said:


> The hills would affect large scale agriculture I'd imagine yes (though I have seen incredibly steep fields that have been ploughed!). Do you mean people wouldn't want to live due to remoteness? Aren't most farms remote? I'm not sure how it's done in other areas if I'm honest.


You have seen steep ploughed hills in the UK? Yes, farms are often remote, but unless one works on a farm most people wouldn't live in the middle of no-where. Also most farms employ very few people these days. The vast majority of people needing housing, or better housing, work in urban or semi-urban areas.


----------



## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> You have seen steep ploughed hills in the UK? Yes, farms are often remote, but unless one works on a farm most people wouldn't live in the middle of no-where. Also most farms employ very few people these days. The vast majority of people needing housing, or better housing, work in urban or semi-urban areas.


Yes, I live in north Scotland so lots of hills here. Some are quite steep and you wonder how the tractor doesn't fall over but I suppose they're not steep enough to cause that issue. Most fields here are the typical rolling hills though. That is a fair point about the housing issue. I can understand that there may be suitable land in Scotland but it would be so far remote you would be living in isolation, you're right. Additionally, you'd be cut off from the outside world in winter due to the roads.


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

You may be able to plough a steep slope, although I wouldn’t think many would out of choice given how dangerous that is, but planting a crop would be hugely difficult never mind trying to harvest it with a combine. Totally impracticable as well as very dangerous
Much of the Welsh hills and mountains now have a limitation on how many and for how long sheep are allowed to graze due to overgrazing issues, I don’t know about Scotland but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are similar limitations. There is also a big push towards rewilding a lot of Scotland as that is where the room is, so many of the big land owners are doing just that.
I think a number of young farmers would love to be able to own land and farm it but are unable to afford to do it and long lease renting is less of an option these days. No point in renting a farm and putting a lot of money in improving it if the owner won’t allow a lease any longer then a few years. Farming is a long term business


----------



## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Siskin said:


> You may be able to plough a steep slope, although I wouldn't think many would out of choice given how dangerous that is, but planting a crop would be hugely difficult never mind trying to harvest it with a combine. Totally impracticable as well as very dangerous
> Much of the Welsh hills and mountains now have a limitation on how many and for how long sheep are allowed to graze due to overgrazing issues, I don't know about Scotland but I wouldn't be surprised if there are similar limitations. There is also a big push towards rewilding a lot of Scotland as that is where the room is, so many of the big land owners are doing just that.
> I think a number of young farmers would love to be able to own land and farm it but are unable to afford to do it and long lease renting is less of an option these days. No point in renting a farm and putting a lot of money in improving it if the owner won't allow a lease any longer then a few years. Farming is a long term business


That is interesting! I'm not sure about rewilding since the majority of Scotland "wildness" like the moorlands are manmade and not natural at all but it is most likely a thing for land to lay fallow in order to encourage biodiversity. I did not know about the leasing of land though, that is understandable. I would not want to set up a business, make local connections, find success in my location and weather and then be forced to move.


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

bmr10 said:


> That is interesting! I'm not sure about rewilding since the majority of Scotland "wildness" like the moorlands are manmade and not natural at all but it is most likely a thing for land to lay fallow in order to encourage biodiversity. I did not know about the leasing of land though, that is understandable. I would not want to set up a business, make local connections, find success in my location and weather and then be forced to move.


Rewilding in its proper sense is not allowing land to do its own thing and just become scrub, but returning it to what it was before the clearances. So planting trees is high on the agenda mainly Scots Pine, but other natural species, not covering acres and acres with trees but planting in smaller woodlands in a more naturalistic way. If an area had drains put in so that the land became dry and either used for grazing or crops, then the drains would be closed off and the land allowed to become wetter again and sphagnum moss planted and other suitable wet loving plants. Land that had been peat diggings again will be encouraged to be wetter and sphagnum encouraged in order for it to become peat bog (a very long term project). 
The Scottish Borders is where there is a lot more farming going on as the land is flatter in comparison and more fertile.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

All this talk of the remoteness and wildness of Scotland makes me want to visit even more! 
It's on the bucket list... 
Judge away for the air miles it will take us to get there


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> All this talk of the remoteness and wildness of Scotland makes me want to visit even more!
> It's on the bucket list...
> Judge away for the air miles it will take us to get there


Boxers are planning a tour of Scotland let me know when your coming I'll drop loki off for two weeks.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Boxers are planning a tour of Scotland let me know when your coming I'll drop loki off for two weeks.


  
It won't be this summer sadly. Gotta pay off some medical bills and put two kids through college :Bag 
I need to start playing the lottery...


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> It won't be this summer sadly. Gotta pay off some medical bills and put two kids through college :Bag
> I need to start playing the lottery...


We were hoping next Christmas.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oh... How cool would that be if we were there at the same time? 
@Blitz doesn't know it but I'm going to come pester her too


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Oh... How cool would that be if we were there at the same time?
> @Blitz doesn't know it but I'm going to come pester her too


So now you have mentioned me I am forced to read this thread and comment.

Has everyone forgotten Panorama's awful programme on pedigree dogs and the damage it did.

Am I the only farmer on here, though I have never been a dairy farmer but I have reared a lot of dairy cross calves - and horrors, in small pens where they can feel secure and get fed individually till they are old enough to go in group pens. They all had names, they all got attention and they spent the summer out in the fields before a winter in (due to bad weather so for welfare reasons) then another summer grazing and either bred from or off to slaughter. What actually is wrong with that!

Vegan food is not environmentally friendly. Most of it comes from thousands of miles away and is grown in countries where the welfare of the humans who have to harvest it is far worse than any dairy cows. Most farmers love their animals - some don't of course but then some dog owners are foul people too but as I think was mentioned earlier on we do not refuse to own dogs because some are ill treated. Maybe we should though, after all it is horrible for dogs that are shut up all day barking their heads off while their owners are at work. Or kept in cages and bred from indiscriminately. Eat what you like but please do not think you are being environmentally friendly refusing to eat meat from locally grown animals.

I saw that some of you are saying that there is extra land that can be used for growing crops. Are you aware that the subsidies and grants that farmers have to have to make a living are now being based on environmental farming - taking land out of production!

This is why I do not venture into general chat.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> It won't be this summer sadly. Gotta pay off some medical bills and put two kids through college :Bag
> I need to start playing the lottery...


Scotland, specifically the West Coast, is best in late April / early May. There is some snow left on the mountains for scenicness, and the midges aren't in full force. Also it's quieter as those at school and university have exams due.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blitz said:


> So now you have mentioned me I am forced to read this thread and comment.
> 
> Has everyone forgotten Panorama's awful programme on pedigree dogs and the damage it did.
> 
> ...


Oh sorry 
I was hoping you wouldn't read the whole thread and just comment on visiting Scotland...

I do wonder sometimes, how threads like these come across to those who may happen upon them.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Oh sorry
> I was hoping you wouldn't read the whole thread and just comment on visiting Scotland...
> 
> I do wonder sometimes, how threads like these come across to those who may happen upon them.


It would be very nice to see you when you visit - and the Boxers! By the way where I am does not suffer with midges and is lovely all the summer. And winter I suppose though I am not a winter person.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Hey, speaking of Scotland and dairy farms, does anyone else watch The Hoof GP on youtube? 
I can't understand half of what he's saying, but I love watching his videos


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> Hey, speaking of Scotland and dairy farms, does anyone else watch The Hoof GP on youtube?
> I can't understand half of what he's saying, but I love watching his videos


I do, very interring videos and good fun. There are some very good farmers and the like YouTubing at the moment. 
Being born and brought up in England I was surprised I understood him so well. My mother was from Scotland, Ayrshire which can be a broad Scottish, I never thought my mum had a strong accent, I mentioned this to my husband recently and he said that he thought she did and that he couldn't understand what she said sometimes.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Hey, speaking of Scotland and dairy farms, does anyone else watch The Hoof GP on youtube?
> I can't understand half of what he's saying, but I love watching his videos


Yes I do... I thought I would be the only one here. It's amazing how many feet sometimes he has to deal with but it's great to watch but it must be hard work!


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

O2.0 said:


> Hey, speaking of Scotland and dairy farms, does anyone else watch The Hoof GP on youtube?
> I can't understand half of what he's saying, but I love watching his videos


if you go very very west everyone sounds irish and if you go very very north they all sound incomprehensible. My partner is from very north Scotland and they have a very very strong accent but mostly speak in doric which is the native dialect of north Scotland. This means that everyday words like washcloth become "cloot". It can be a guessing game to understand what they're going on about sometimes as I was brought up being told that having an accent or speaking doric was bad (it's not). If you visit the highlands (which I'd personally recommend) you meet what we call teuchters and they're about as bad (especially if they are an old farmer!!!) as they speak incredibly fast (everyone in Scotland speaks faster than usual) and doric again. South east (so around Edinburgh) and near the border people sound much much more neutral.

For such a tiny country there is a wide variety of accents! If you're scottish you can tell where another scot is from, it is that distinct  People who speak doric are mainly older though there is a large push to introduce doric into schools. Gaelic is unfortunately something you are incredibly unlikely to come across (apart from on some signs). I hope you enjoy your trip  I am very biased (of course) but it's the most beautiful place I've ever been.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

What jumped out at me was the big plastic thing in the cow’s nose ????


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Where we used to live in the Yorkshire Dales each dale had its own distinct accent still discernible in the 80’s when we were there. My son picked up the local accent quite strongly, so much so, that when we moved to our village on the Cotswolds in Gloucestershire, an elderly lady in the village who was born and brought up in the Dales was able to pinpoint whereabouts in the Dales we had lived due to his accent. Yet the Dales are an incredibly small area. 
Sadly both children lost their Yorkie accents and developed broad Gloucester ones due to teasing at school. My daughter told me that when she went to Uni in Brighton she was teased for sounding like a farmer so she allowed her accent to slip away.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> What jumped out at me was the big plastic thing in the cow's nose ????


It's to stop the youngster from suckling at any of the other cows as they won't like it and could kick out or butt it away. It's old enough to be drinking milk from a bucket


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Siskin said:


> My daughter told me that when she went to Uni in Brighton she was teased for sounding like a farmer


Her classmates sound boring :Yuck I've been teased for dialect before at uni but I just remind them that _they_ decided to visit Scotland.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Blitz said:


> So now you have mentioned me I am forced to read this thread and comment.
> 
> Vegan food is not environmentally friendly. Most of it comes from thousands of miles away and is grown in countries where the welfare of the humans who have to harvest it is far worse than any dairy cows.


You know I dont think thats how threads work....'say my name 3 times and I shall be forced to appear!!' Im pretty sure that was for Bloody Mary.:Hilarious

But Im also not impressed with some vegan farming practices and the airmiles food has. Its probably why Im such a big fan of farmers in this country changing their crops from animals to plants!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

bmr10 said:


> if you go very very west everyone sounds irish and if you go very very north they all sound incomprehensible. My partner is from very north Scotland and they have a very very strong accent but mostly speak in doric which is the native dialect of north Scotland. This means that everyday words like washcloth become "cloot". It can be a guessing game to understand what they're going on about sometimes as I was brought up being told that having an accent or speaking doric was bad (it's not). If you visit the highlands (which I'd personally recommend) you meet what we call teuchters and they're about as bad (especially if they are an old farmer!!!) as they speak incredibly fast (everyone in Scotland speaks faster than usual) and doric again. South east (so around Edinburgh) and near the border people sound much much more neutral.
> 
> For such a tiny country there is a wide variety of accents! If you're scottish you can tell where another scot is from, it is that distinct  People who speak doric are mainly older though there is a large push to introduce doric into schools. Gaelic is unfortunately something you are incredibly unlikely to come across (apart from on some signs). I hope you enjoy your trip  I am very biased (of course) but it's the most beautiful place I've ever been.


Doric is only Aberdeenshire area where they have quite a hard accent anyway, Highland is most definitely not Doric and is a soft and slower accent. People do not speak faster in Scotland! it must be because you are struggling to pick up the accent. I have to really think whether someone is English or Scottish now. Cloot is a scottish word (and north of England I think) not Doric as far as I know, definitely used all over the north anyway.



Lurcherlad said:


> What jumped out at me was the big plastic thing in the cow's nose ????


It is to stop it sucking. It will make it harder to suck and also prick the cow so it will get kicked off. Some grown up heifers and young cows still think it fun to suck cows which can be fairly catastrophic if they suck a cow just before it calves and steal all the colostrum so they have to live with a nose clip. Some farmers are also experimenting with nose clipping every calf (this is suckled calves not dairy calves) when the summer is coming to an end and it is getting close to weaning, calves are normally about 7 months and do not NEED milk. It appears to slow down the suckling and let the cow gradually dry off and is much less traumatic than abrupt weaning. It looks gruesome but it does not bother them and I have never seen a sore spot. I actually hate them so we only used them on really naughty sucking heifers and cows. They are quite expensive too and sometimes get rubbed off in the field. Not cruel though, very necessary for the odd silly cow so that they can live naturally in a herd without depriving calves of their milk.



catz4m8z said:


> You know I dont think thats how threads work....'say my name 3 times and I shall be forced to appear!!' Im pretty sure that was for Bloody Mary.:Hilarious
> But Im also not impressed with some vegan farming practices and the airmiles food has. Its probably why Im such a big fan of farmers in this country changing their crops from animals to plants!


Ah but it piqued my interest.
Farmers cannot change from crops to animals. The northern part of the UK needs animals to keep the land healthy and in good condition for dog walkers! Areas that have a lot of crops just end up with great big fields with no hedges and are definitely not environmentally friendly. We need meat to eat too as the majority of people want to eat it even if they do not shout about like so many vegans do.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ooh, I just watched the video. Really interesting specially as we had a bull on our farm with the love heart so it must be related! One thing that was not pointed out though, those cows are certainly in wonderful condition but most dairy cows could not look like that with all the food in the world - because those cows were all dairy crosses so they have a beef breed in them which makes them a completely different shape from the normal more bony looking dairy cows. Very interesting what good milkers they are.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Blitz said:


> ooh, I just watched the video. Really interesting specially as we had a bull on our farm with the love heart so it must be related! One thing that was not pointed out though, those cows are certainly in wonderful condition but most dairy cows could not look like that with all the food in the world - because those cows were all dairy crosses so they have a beef breed in them which makes them a completely different shape from the normal more bony looking dairy cows. Very interesting what good milkers they are.


I think many dairy farms are moving to a crossbred cow rather then a dairy cow so that any bull calves born don't have to be slaughtered when born due to no one wanting them. Bony dairy cattle don't make suitable beef cattle. Crossing a British Friesian with another suitable type of dairy cow such as Brown Swiss or a beef breed seems to produce a cow that still has plenty of milk but isn't such a bony cow that used to be seen on farms with friesian holsteins. Happy cows produce plenty of milk and are easy to get into calf.
I agree with you about Cloot, my mother used it and she was Ayrshire born. I don't find the Scots speak any quicker, if you are able to speak another language and go to a country where they speak it you often think they are speaking g quickly until you gradually get your 'ear in'


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Blitz said:


> Farmers cannot change from crops to animals. The northern part of the UK needs animals to keep the land healthy and in good condition for dog walkers!


Exactly, if they weren't used for grazing they'd be turned over for housing not crops.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

bmr10 said:


> If you visit the highlands (which I'd personally recommend)


Yup, that's the plan  
We currently live in the lower Appalachians and the Scottish highlands are the same mountains - before the continents split in to Europe and north America. I just love the idea of exploring the other half of these mountains I love so much  
OH has always wanted to visit Scotland, so it's a win win for us!



Lurcherlad said:


> What jumped out at me was the big plastic thing in the cow's nose ????


That's a calf. If you watch the video he explains it. As others have said it's to keep them from suckling and/or reduce the sucking. It's an ethical dairy farm.



Siskin said:


> Where we used to live in the Yorkshire Dales each dale had its own distinct accent still discernible in the 80's when we were there. My son picked up the local accent quite strongly, so much so, that when we moved to our village on the Cotswolds in Gloucestershire, an elderly lady in the village who was born and brought up in the Dales was able to pinpoint whereabouts in the Dales we had lived due to his accent. Yet the Dales are an incredibly small area.
> Sadly both children lost their Yorkie accents and developed broad Gloucester ones due to teasing at school. My daughter told me that when she went to Uni in Brighton she was teased for sounding like a farmer so she allowed her accent to slip away.


Liked for the story, not that your daughter lost her accent.

There's a joke about England and the US. Drive 3 hours in the UK, the accent has changed 50 times, and you're gone through 14 regions. Drive 3 hours in the US, you're still in the same state. Which we're going to do tomorrow, drive 3 hours. The accent does change, I've heard that a true Charleson accent sounds like what the British sounded like when they first came here. And to me there's some truth in that, the vowels in particular. There's also the Gullah accent and dialect on the sea islands around Charleston and Beaufort which I love.



Blitz said:


> ooh, I just watched the video.


Oh yay! I was hoping you would. The scenery alone is amazing!

If you're in to accents, Erik Singer's videos on youtube. Old language nerd here love his stuff


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Do you know what OH got from that video?


.......................................


He wasn't driving with due care and attention!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rona said:


> Do you know what OH got from that video?
> 
> .......................................
> 
> He wasn't driving with due care and attention!


I'm with your OH, it drives me crazy when folks video while driving! I think the same thing. 
But I'm willing to overlook it for the rest of the content


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

In my dairy free world cows wouldn’t be in calf permanently in order to provide 1st World humans with milk, so nose clips wouldn’t be required.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> In my dairy free world cows wouldn't be in calf permanently in order to provide 1st World humans with milk, so nose clips wouldn't be required.


In that world cows wouldn't exist at all


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> In my dairy free world cows wouldn't be in calf permanently in order to provide 1st World humans with milk, so nose clips wouldn't be required.


Cows in the wild have a calf every year, it is what they do! some would die of starvation if greedy older animals nicked their milk. The cows would drive all the calves out of the herd when they got close to having their next calf. There are two completely feral herds in the UK. The larger one, the cows are quite thin but I know nothing more than that. The smaller one lives on an island and their mortality rate among calves is such that they keep a constant number in the herd with sometimes no calves being born or surviving and the odd year with around 4. They live completely naturally with no human intervention except for the odd time one needs a bullet because a fisherman spots a broken leg or some such. They keep the island in lovely condition too. Imagine no animals to graze, what a horrible mess our countryside would be in.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Never mind


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

This gap will never be breached. Those that have never farmed will never get the importance of the mixture of farming life, and the link that runs through you for the rest of your life.

I can see the pro life side and can really sympathize with that view but I feel it's just an unrealistic dream

Sorry LL


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

rona said:


> This gap will never be breached. Those that have never farmed will never get the importance of the mixture of farming life, and the link that runs through you for the rest of your life.
> 
> I can see the pro life side and can really sympathize with that view but I feel it's just an unrealistic dream
> 
> Sorry LL


I actually agree I don't see anything wrong with eating animal based products. For me I stick to a mainly plant based diet for health but also as mass production and factory farming I find upsetting. Your poem really captured it for me. I imagine supermarkets put a huge strain on farmers.

When I eat meat it is in a restaurant or from a farm shop. However I am a hypocrite as I do eat chocolate and cheese.

Essentially the world is over populated and as a result we have to feed people on a huge level. Added to that land is always being turned into new housing developments.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Blitz said:


> Doric is only Aberdeenshire area where they have quite a hard accent anyway, Highland is most definitely not Doric and is a soft and slower accent. People do not speak faster in Scotland! it must be because you are struggling to pick up the accent. I have to really think whether someone is English or Scottish now. Cloot is a scottish word (and north of England I think) not Doric as far as I know, definitely used all over the north anyway.


People in scotland do speak faster in comparison to other countries such as america or england, in my opinion. Maybe not in Edinburgh or borders but I've always found people from other countries to speak incredibly slowly. It can be frustrating to watch tv shows due to this. I have been told by the international students who visit here they find that we speak fast though it may be the accent, as you mentioned. I don't have an issue with the accent since I've lived here my entire life but for someone out with scotland I would imagine many of them would be incomprehensible at first. Doric is the entirety of the north east and mid north so mostly aberdeen but not entirely really, at least in my opinion. It used to refer to lowland scotland but from living in the north east I've heard it used to refer to anyone from north to east coast including up to inverness which isn't really in the north east. I guess it depends since there's no clear cut geographical boundaries and people have moved over time.

I did not know that cloot was scots though! Very interesting  It is also interesting to see that you find aberdeen to have a hard accent! We probably do but i'm obviously used to it to the point that I don't notice it anymore.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rona said:


> This gap will never be breached. Those that have never farmed will never get the importance of the mixture of farming life, and the link that runs through you for the rest of your life.
> 
> I can see the pro life side and can really sympathize with that view but I feel it's just an unrealistic dream
> 
> Sorry LL


Oh some of us are definitely poles apart … Each to their own though … 

I'm realistic enough to know that animals will always be raised, farmed and eaten by humans though … I'm not that idealistic (or daft)


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> In my dairy free world cows wouldn't be in calf permanently in order to provide 1st World humans with milk, so nose clips wouldn't be required.





O2.0 said:


> In that world cows wouldn't exist at all


Dairy cows wouldn't, though I suspect it's a world where beef wouldn't be eaten either in which case there might be a few cows in petting farms.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> … Each to their own though …
> 
> I'm realistic enough to know that animals will always be raised, farmed and eaten by humans though … I'm not that idealistic (or daft)


 It's up to people to choose. I make choices for myself but not for my family or pets. People can choose but pets can't . 
DD eat less meat now and drinks coconut milk , OH doesn't like the Soya so drinks milk but eats less meat . I like the soya milk but miss cheese, Ive not eaten , beef , lamb , pork for about 36 years. i went back to eating chicken for a few years but stopped last year. Im not vegan, I don't check labels to see if the product contain dairy.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Being vegan can indeed be environmentally friendly, it's also cruelty free.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Beth78 said:


> Being vegan can indeed be environmentally friendly, it's also cruelty free.


If only a few go vegan maybe, but totally vegan country couldn't possibly be environmentally friendly or even ethical


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rona said:


> Those that have never farmed will never get the importance of the mixture of farming life


I think this has been misinterpreted as meaning mixed farming, what I actually mean is the life balance of those that farm. It's in your soul.........................not a choice, it's just there


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

rona said:


> If only a few go vegan maybe, but totally vegan country couldn't possibly be environmentally friendly or even ethical


How would it not be ethical ?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rona said:


> This gap will never be breached. Those that have never farmed will never get the importance of the mixture of farming life, and the link that runs through you for the rest of your life.


This is really well put and you're right, I think you either have that in you or you don't. And it's impossible to breach the gap between those who have that imprinting and those who don't. Not in a bad way, just one of many differences among humans that makes us the wonderfully diverse species that we are.

But we can and IMO should continue to talk to each other - respectfully, with the goal of understanding, not converting.

I also think no matter what our choices, we can all make improvements. And what's 'better' will depend on the individual, their location, their means, and all sorts of things.



Beth78 said:


> How would it not be ethical ?


I don't know what Rona was thinking but I can definitely think of examples where vegan is not necessarily the more ethical choice. 
Is the Alaskan homesteader living off the grid, off the land, using only what they can grow or hunt themselves more or less ethical than the Alaskan vegan who gets most of their food shipped in from a long way away?

I'm vegan because I can be. Technically I'm not vegan though and I hate the label anyway. But for the purposes of this comment, I'm essentially vegan, no meat, no dairy. But I live in a first would country where food is plentiful and I have an obscene variety to choose from. 
If you dropped me off in the wilds of Alaska I'd lose my vegan sensibilities real quick. If you put me in the jungles of the Amazon, same thing, I'd quickly develop a taste for big juicy maggots. We all would. When you're hungry, food is food. 
And a lot of the world is indeed hungry. That I have the luxury of choosing "cruelty free" food doesn't make me more ethical than anyone. It makes me lucky.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Beth78 said:


> How would it not be ethical ?


Mainly for the loss of biodiversity. so many creatures rely on animals and animal waste for their survival. You couldn't have wild land because you'd be using every square inch for crops (UK), unless you'd unethically import loads!!

Then there's the staple parts of those diets......So much fertilizer, Where's that coming from?

This isn't something I can put very well into words....not my forte, but I actually believe it would be socially unethical too


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> How would it not be ethical ?


Because a lot of vegan products come from thousands of miles away, forests are ripped up to make room for growing the crops, water is used which is needed for producing food for the indigenous people (and for them to drink) and the travel miles getting them into the supermarkets in this country are astronomical. Where do you think the ingredients for pretend milk come from. Not sure why it is even called milk when it is something else altogether. Same with pretend meat, mostly comes from other countries that have or make the space to grow it. What about all the out of season fruit and veg, where do you think that comes from. Eat exactly what you want to and no one should criticise what anyone chooses to eat but do not pretend it is for an ethical reason.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Blitz said:


> Because a lot of vegan products come from thousands of miles away, forests are ripped up to make room for growing the crops, water is used which is needed for producing food for the indigenous people (and for them to drink) and the travel miles getting them into the supermarkets in this country are astronomical. Where do you think the ingredients for pretend milk come from. Not sure why it is even called milk when it is something else altogether. Same with pretend meat, mostly comes from other countries that have or make the space to grow it. What about all the out of season fruit and veg, where do you think that comes from. Eat exactly what you want to and no one should criticise what anyone chooses to eat but do not pretend it is for an ethical reason.


I think being vegan _can_ be ethical (regardless of whether majority of vegans follow this). I buy seasonal vegetables and fruit locally grown in my corner of Scotland. That's all we have. As a result I don't come across some things that don't grow here (like coconuts lol) but it isn't detrimental to my diet. In terms of meat replacements I don't have them. I like tofu but that's it. Soy can't be grown in Scotland but is possible in some parts of England (and would be possible in greenhouses using hydroponics wherever you are). Milk replacements is a downfall for me because they aren't sourced in the UK as far as I'm aware. I'd like to buy locally sourced milk but I'm lactose intolerant so soy milk or lacto-free milk it is unfortunately! Aside from milk replacements, everything we eat is sourced locally from our pasta, veg, to eggs (i'm not vegan just find the discussion interesting).

It is more expensive and not really possible unless you live in a big city where you can go to a shop that sources these locally grown foods _but_ I think a vegan lifestyle can definitely be ethical in terms of airmiles. The benefit of it being more expensive is that we don't waste any food at all.

Also, I say expensive but the store we use is comparable to tesco prices so not extortionate!

Edit to add; this is not directed at you solely but I don't understand the argument that a vegan lifestyle requires _more_ land for crops? If someone would be willing to reply to this part and elaborate I'd be grateful. My understanding is that majority of crops grown in the UK go towards animal feed. Humans require much less food per day than cows and pigs. The land used for animals would be used for crops we already eat instead?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

bmr10 said:


> I think being vegan _can_ be ethical (regardless of whether majority of vegans follow this). I buy seasonal vegetables and fruit locally grown in my corner of Scotland. That's all we have. As a result I don't come across some things that don't grow here (like coconuts lol) but it isn't detrimental to my diet. In terms of meat replacements I don't have them. I like tofu but that's it. Soy can't be grown in Scotland but is possible in some parts of England (and would be possible in greenhouses using hydroponics wherever you are). Milk replacements is a downfall for me because they aren't sourced in the UK as far as I'm aware. I'd like to buy locally sourced milk but I'm lactose intolerant so soy milk or lacto-free milk it is unfortunately! Aside from milk replacements, everything we eat is sourced locally from our pasta, veg, to eggs (i'm not vegan just find the discussion interesting).
> 
> It is more expensive and not really possible unless you live in a big city where you can go to a shop that sources these locally grown foods _but_ I think a vegan lifestyle can definitely be ethical in terms of airmiles. The benefit of it being more expensive is that we don't waste any food at all.
> 
> ...


Would we be able to have a varied diet on what we can grow ? I imagine in the winter it would be very restrictive. I like a potato as much as the next person. If we couldn't get meat or cheese substitutes? (Playing devils advocate here)


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## Oof (12 mo ago)

I have nothing of substance to add, but want to make a point of how much I'm enjoying this thread.
I feel educated


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Boxer123 said:


> Would we be able to have a varied diet on what we can grow ? I imagine in the winter it would be very restrictive. I like a potato as much as the next person. If we couldn't get meat or cheese substitutes? (Playing devils advocate here)


Obviously depends on your location but: https://vegsoc.org/cookery-school/blog/seasonal-uk-grown-produce/

It's surprising the variety of what can grow here!! We have a wide range of weather and temperatures in the UK and something grown in the south of England is still better than it being grown over in peru pollution-wise.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

I normally keep away from threads like this but just wanted to say. Being vegan can be ethical, for sure. But just because meat replacements have air miles doesn’t mean everyone who eats meat doesn’t have air miles.
How many people actually bother to check where their meat/fruit/veg come from when they’re shopping at one of the big four? (Not saying that to people on here as most do think about this but, just saying, out of the whole general public). How many people will buy lamb from New Zealand? Or go to McDonald’s where they source chicken from places like Brazil and Thailand?

Im not a fan of the stance vegans aren’t ethical because they eat meat replacements but people who eat meat are because they don’t. People who eat meat can have very similar problems in their diet. And vegans can be ethical and source food local to home.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Only about 8% of grain is for animal food which includes our dogs.
The rest of animal foodstuffs comes from things that humans can’t eat such as grass and the residues from crops grown for human use. I suppose you could plough up all the grasslands and grow crops, but did you know that grasslands that are managed as in having animals on them are very good at sequestering carbon, more so then trees. Ploughing up all that grassland would release loads of carbon into the atmosphere annually besides degrading the soil. I’m still at a loss as to where fertilisers will come from in a world where there are no animals apart from wild ones. Soil soon loses fertility if crops are continually grown on them. Man made fertilisers apart from costing a fortune due to the fuel requirements needed to make them are also polluting. Slurry from cows is returning the grass back to the land from whence it came and is a fantastic fertiliser.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I was watching a David Attenborough documentary the other day and he said globally beef is responsible for 40ish% of deforestation.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> I was watching a David Attenborough documentary the other day and he said globally beef is responsible for 40ish% of deforestation.


Though often I suspect to grow fodder for cattle. Grass fed local beef is the stuff, and it's relatively expensive and not found in ready meals. So... That seems to lead to eat less beef, eat grass fed beef, avoid ready meals with beef in, though apparently MacDonalds in the UK is made with entirely UK & Irish beef.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

OrientalSlave said:


> Though often I suspect to grow fodder for cattle. Grass fed local beef is the stuff, and it's relatively expensive and not found in ready meals. So... That seems to lead to eat less beef, eat grass fed beef, avoid ready meals with beef in, though apparently MacDonalds in the UK is made with entirely UK & Irish beef.


It is a global problem and as the developing countries get richer they are eating more meat which will only make the problem of global warming and deforestation worse I guess.
I suspect the UK has a tiny footprint compared with America and China.

Would the Maccy D cows be grassfed ?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

The deforestation is happening especially in countries like Brazil, the UK has all the fields it needs without the need to cultivate more. It’s a huge issue in Brazil as rather then manage the fields they have, once the grass stops growing so well because the soil is depleted more trees are chopped down in virgin forests. 
However the damage to the land can be restored. I watched an interesting program where they unexpectedly found some old farmland had started to return to rainforest. I wish I could remember what it was and where I saw the program, it was certainly very heartening.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Siskin said:


> The deforestation is happening especially in countries like Brazil, the UK has all the fields it needs without the need to cultivate more. It's a huge issue in Brazil as rather then manage the fields they have, once the grass stops growing so well because the soil is depleted more trees are chopped down in virgin forests.
> However the damage to the land can be restored. I watched an interesting program where they unexpectedly found some old farmland had started to return to rainforest. I wish I could remember what it was and where I saw the program, it was certainly very heartening.


I've heard that cows compact the ground and so make it hard for plants to grow.
Do you know how long a grazing land has to be rested to re wild ?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> I've heard that cows compact the ground and so make it hard for plants to grow.
> Do you know how long a grazing land has to be rested to re wild ?


Sheep compact ground worse then cattle, cattle tend to poach land. Good farming practice is to airate compacted ground and harrow and reseed poached ground each year. It's why sheep numbers have been reduced where they are grazing on moorlands and in certain areas they can only be there for a limited time each year to allow the land to recover from any damage

I don't know how long grazing land needs to rested, however it's not just a matter of walking away from a field and leaving it to it. It will easily become scrub and overrun with blackberry. Rewilding means managing the area, usually animals will be used to graze to keep the scrub down, but those animals need to be managed and cared for.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

It’s why I don’t really rep Veganuary. It’s another one of those phrases conjured up in marketing but is grim for home grown food in the U.K. I think it’s flipping tough and admire anyone who does. And one has to watch out for air miles and palm oil. I dare say I’ll be shot down for sharing a link to that supposedly ad driven Ethical Consumer or Moral Fibres, both are independent publications btw, but they’ve both at various points discussed this and encouraged folk to check sources. One of them has a carbon food calculator I think.

I can be vegan but only because I’m well facilitated too and been vegetarian for longer than most here I think but being g/f makes it complicated sometimes. I’m also passionate about providence. Better for our planet to eat animal products from sustainable sources than buy a fake burger with unsustainable palm oil or palm oil that’s meant to be but isn’t (not all certifications are equal much like Sainsbury’s attempt to replace fair trade - again the indie Ethical Consumer has info to inform, without prejudice so one can decide for themselves). My husband eats meat sometimes and he will buy from a local farm as neither of us like meat substitutes though I have found a ‘pea’ mince that is produced in the U.K.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

April 2021 Mighty Earth scorecard on Beef and Deforestation
https://www.mightyearth.org/2021/04...g-to-address-largest-driver-of-deforestation/

*for reference, you don't have to click it*


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

And then you've got the animal welfare to think about and that's a big problem as well in these massive companies.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> And then you've got the animal welfare to think about and that's a big problem as well in these massive companies.


and human rights, home and abroad alongside overall impact to the planet. But critically parent companies. Often once ethical companies - Green and Black comes to mind - are quietly bought out. G&B is owned by Mondelez who use unethical palm oil. S C Johnson owns Ecover and Method but it's very well hidden on the website; SC Johnson test on animals. People might think spending a few extra pennies to help the planet is good but they're not.


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

I don't use a lot of dairy but for me the only alternatives of soya and almond are not good. Soya as its bad for thyroid and almond as it's horrible and at 1,40e instead of 68c is very expensive. I could make almond drink myself as I have trees but there would be no calcium in it so seems pointless.

Where I live (spain) about the only thing that grows is almond trees, they don't need watering, and they make great firewood too. The farmers with orange trees are getting 11c a kilo! Paying more than that for the water so they haven't bothered picking them this year in the hope that the price will go up. We're in a drought now too and the reservoirs are nearly empty.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Because a lot of vegan products come from thousands of miles away, forests are ripped up to make room for growing the crops, .



The forests are also being cut down for wood and for grazing cattle as well.

ETA Links about soya and milk and cancer

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/food-health-science-science-everywhere/milk-hormones-and-cancer

https://www.webmd.com/breast-cancer/features/soy-effects-on-breast-cancer#:~:text=Some experts worried that soy might interfere with,included were tofu, soy milk, and fresh soybeans.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I get my dogs food from our local butcher as they do reasonably priced complete raw food, I will have to ask some questions about where the animals are raised. It was my assumption that as its a small butcher the welfare and environmental impact is good but that may not be the case.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

There are now vegetarian and vegan diets for dogs. They're advertised in the dog magazines. Not sure if its good for dogs.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

kimthecat said:


> There are now vegetarian and vegan diets for dogs. They're advertised in the dog magazines. Not sure if its good for dogs.


I had whisp on a vegan diet and she did very well on it, I changed her over to meat as the vegan food is too expensive and I couldn't afford it. I haven't noticed a change in her since the switch.
I've also thought about feeding her insect protein dog food but that's even more expensive.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jaf said:


> Soya as its bad for thyroid and almond as it's horrible and at 1,40e instead of 68c is very expensive. I could make almond drink myself as I have trees but there would be no calcium in it so seems pointless.


Soy isn't bad for your thyroid. See links above 

Almonds have quite a bit of calcium naturally and plenty of plant based foods are high in calcium like figs which are plentiful in Spain, and many of the leafy greens like spinach and broccoli have calcium that's more easily absorbed.

It's interesting that in cultures where they don't drink a lot of milk or consume a lot of dairy you're not seeing the same rates of osteoporosis as in places like the UK and US. As in they have far less of it, even without dairy. In other words plant sources of calcium may be better for us in the long run.

Dogs on a vegan diet is a whole 'nother can of worms I wouldn't want to open.


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Soy isn't bad for your thyroid. See links above
> 
> Almonds have quite a bit of calcium naturally and plenty of plant based foods are high in calcium like figs which are plentiful in Spain, and many of the leafy greens like spinach and broccoli have calcium that's more easily absorbed.
> 
> ...


Perhaps soy is only bad for some thyroid conditions. With hypothyroidism it is known to affect absorption of iodine and like many things should not be taken within a few hours of thyroid meds. I'm not supposed to eat spinach or many of the leafy veg as they are goitrogenic.

Figs often have wasps in them! At least mine do.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Jaf said:


> Figs often have wasps in them! At least mine do.


That is how fig flowers are pollinated  (figs are a flower not a fruit!) The wasps should be very very small though and are broken down by the enzymes within the fig. If any aren't broken down they should be small enough to not be very noticeable (not like a yellow and black wasp would be!). It is a very interesting aspect of nature and one I'm very grateful for as I love figs


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

bmr10 said:


> That is how fig flowers are pollinated  (figs are a flower not a fruit!) The wasps should be very very small though and are broken down by the enzymes within the fig. If any aren't broken down they should be small enough to not be very noticeable (not like a yellow and black wasp would be!). It is a very interesting aspect of nature and one I'm very grateful for as I love figs


I do too. Particularly fresh figs. We have a lot of fig trees around here - fresh figs in the summer right of the tree! Oh! So good!!

@Jaf I was just trying to point out that you don't need dairy for calcium. If you prefer dairy that's another story, but if you're trying to avoid it and worried about calcium, there are other options


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

Thanks @O2.0 I don't eat dairy much at all so there's no way I'd be getting the rda through that. Though I had rice pudding yesterday, that would probably work with a dairy alternative. I do like to ponder the alternatives.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Jaf said:


> Thanks @O2.0 I don't eat dairy much at all so there's no way I'd be getting the rda through that. Though I had rice pudding yesterday, that would probably work with a dairy alternative. I do like to ponder the alternatives.


I know barista oat milk makes my porridge really creamy so I hope it would work in a similar way for rice pudding!


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

O2.0 said:


> I do too. Particularly fresh figs. We have a lot of fig trees around here - fresh figs in the summer right of the tree! Oh! So good!!
> 
> @Jaf I was just trying to point out that you don't need dairy for calcium. If you prefer dairy that's another story, but if you're trying to avoid it and worried about calcium, there are other options


I have never had fresh fig only dried ones ): Don't grow here anyway but I've had them in restaurants and as an attempt to cure constipation (TMI??? ). I would love to have a fresh supply of them but for now I'm enjoying my pomegranates which are another fruit I love and miraculously _do _grow here.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Boxer123 said:


> Would we be able to have a varied diet on what we can grow ? I imagine in the winter it would be very restrictive. I like a potato as much as the next person. If we couldn't get meat or cheese substitutes? (Playing devils advocate here)


We could if we learnt to store and pickle again. Anyway, there's a huge variety of veg that can be grown in this country to take us over the winter, not so much fruit unfortunately



Teddy-dog said:


> . And vegans can be ethical and source food local to home.


They can, but if everyone was vegan, they couldn't,not enough growing land in this country



Beth78 said:


> I was watching a David Attenborough documentary the other day and he said globally beef is responsible for 40ish% of deforestation.


 We seem to be talking ethical buying here, which means to buy as much as possible close to home.
Luckily, our land is good for grass without having to cut trees



Beth78 said:


> Would the Maccy D cows be grassfed ?


They buy British, so most probably, as virtually all beef raised in the UK are grazing on grass.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

rona said:


> They buy British, so most probably, as virtually all beef raised in the UK are grazing on grass.


I did some research and they feed the mac Donald's cows on grains and hay forage. They have cut out soy so that's a good thing. Macdonalds briefly bought out a limited edition grassfed burger afew years ago.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Beth78 said:


> I did some research and they feed the mac Donald's cows on grains and hay forage. They have cut out soy so that's a good thing. Macdonalds briefly bought out a limited edition grassfed burger afew years ago.


In the UK?

I don't believe that
https://www.mcdonalds.com/gb/en-gb/our-plan-for-change/great-food/sustainable-beef.html


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

rona said:


> <snip>
> We seem to be talking ethical buying here, which means to buy as much as possible close to home.
> Luckily, our land is good for grass without having to cut trees
> <snip>.


We are still deforesting, and have been doing for thousands of years - since Neolithic times. Without people most of the UK would be some sort of forest. Apparently 6,000 years ago woodland covered about 75% of the land.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

And if it was all forest there would be even less land to grow crops on on, can’t have it both ways.

Personally I would rather eat food produced in this country to high welfare standards with strict rules on what chemicals are used rather then imported foods often flown in from countries where they don’t have strict rules over chemicals and awful welfare standards


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I can't find the bit about hay forage but found this, so yes they do eat grass but they are also fed graind and probably alot of it.








It does say Mainly" so what else are they fed on I wonder.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Could be residues from human food production such as the remains from sugar beet once the sugar has been processed from it


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/...":"dadd178ff54d456d99ef8ea951eed924c22dc4d8"}
I know some people will not read this because it's greenpeace and they have a bad reputation but I found it interesting.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Siskin said:


> Could be residues from human food production such as the remains from sugar beet once the sugar has been processed from it


Would they not be preaching about it if they were using surplus human food ?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> Would they not be preaching about it if they were using surplus human food ?


Can't answer that, but also I can't think what else they could be eating other then grass and some grains. Why not email them and ask


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Siskin said:


> Can't answer that, but also I can't think what else they could be eating other then grass and some grains. Why not email them and ask


I can't find an email address, I just keep being re directed to either a computer online helper or an faq


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I'm staying away from their McPlant as I can't support a company that does still in some countries feed thier animals on soy from deforestated areas.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> I can't find an email address, I just keep being re directed to either a computer online helper or an faq


Does this help


Email Customer Services on [email protected].
Email Paul Pomroy (CEO) on [email protected].
Tweet McDonald's (UK)


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Siskin said:


> Does this help
> 
> 
> Email Customer Services on [email protected].
> ...


Perfect, thanks


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Siskin said:


> Could be residues from human food production such as the remains from sugar beet once the sugar has been processed from it


Or Straw that's left from grain harvest


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Siskin said:


> Can't answer that, but also I can't think what else they could be eating other then grass and some grains. Why not email them and ask


I don't think they would know. Best to contact farmers directly


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Beth78 said:


> I can't find the bit about hay forage but found this, so yes they do eat grass but they are also fed graind and probably alot of it.
> View attachment 484802
> 
> It does say Mainly" so what else are they fed on I wonder.


Probably refers to the fact that most cattle are over wintered in doors so have no access to grass. They'll get a mix of hay, straw, silage, along with a grain/cereal mix to provide protein and various vitamins and minerals. They will become nutritionally deficient on a grass only diet too.


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## Oof (12 mo ago)

Beth78 said:


> I'm staying away from their McPlant as I can't support a company that does still in some countries feed thier animals on soy from deforestated areas.


I'd stay away from their mcplant as it looks nasty as heck. It gives me flashbacks about school dinner "veggie burgers" :Vomit


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> Probably refers to the fact that most cattle are over wintered in doors so have no access to grass. They'll get a mix of hay, straw, silage, along with a grain/cereal mix to provide protein and various vitamins and minerals. They will become nutritionally deficient on a grass only diet too.


Also rejected veg from supermarkets, too small or too big potatoes, you know the sort of thing, cows love potatoes.


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

Just found out that some almonds contain cyanide. Half my trees are the bitter, dangerous ones. I read that 5 bitter almonds is enough to kill a child. I read that the almonds taste really bitter but, having never eaten sweet almonds, I wonder if I'd be able to tell? Especially in a homemade drink. I've scared myself!


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Jaf said:


> Just found out that some almonds contain cyanide. Half my trees are the bitter, dangerous ones. I read that 5 bitter almonds is enough to kill a child. I read that the almonds taste really bitter but, having never eaten sweet almonds, I wonder if I'd be able to tell? Especially in a homemade drink. I've scared myself!


Oh dear that is scary. Have you ever had oat milk ?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Jaf said:


> Just found out that some almonds contain cyanide. Half my trees are the bitter, dangerous ones. I read that 5 bitter almonds is enough to kill a child. I read that the almonds taste really bitter but, having never eaten sweet almonds, I wonder if I'd be able to tell? Especially in a homemade drink. I've scared myself!


ALL almonds contain cyanide - well, technically a chemical that the body breaks down into cyanide. It just varies on how much - sweet almond have up to 1,000 times less of that chemical than bitter almonds. Doesn't affect me, as I can't stand almonds in any form!

Some fruit stones (including cherries, plums, peaches, nectarines and apricot stones) also contain cyanide, though you'd have to grind them up or chew them to be in any danger.


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

Beth78 said:


> Oh dear that is scary. Have you ever had oat milk ?


No cos its not in my supermarket. I could order it online, but I'm not good with new things! One day I'll be brave.


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> ALL almonds contain cyanide - well, technically a chemical that the body breaks down into cyanide. It just varies on how much - sweet almond have up to 1,000 times less of that chemical than bitter almonds. Doesn't affect me, as I can't stand almonds in any form!
> 
> Some fruit stones (including cherries, plums, peaches, nectarines and apricot stones) also contain cyanide, though you'd have to grind them up or chew them to be in any danger.


I've just started obsessing over visitors that have eaten nuts off my trees. Would they know it tasted bitter? Have my friends got poisoned? My aunt ate an olive once...well she spat it straight out.

I'm never eating anything raw!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Jaf said:


> I've just started obsessing over visitors that have eaten nuts off my trees. Would they know it tasted bitter? Have my friends got poisoned? My aunt ate an olive once...well she spat it straight out.


I suspect you are safe - cyanide poisoning doesn't hang about!


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## Jaf (Apr 17, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> I suspect you are safe - cyanide poisoning doesn't hang about!


Oh good, thanks! Well not good, exactly, but you know what I mean.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Does anyone remember the film Soylent Green released back in the 70s? Apparently it takes place in 2022 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070723/plotsummary


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

kimthecat said:


> Does anyone remember the film Soylent Green released back in the 70s? Apparently it takes place in 2022
> 
> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070723/plotsummary


Yes I've seen that, we're not quite there yet thank goodness.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Does anyone remember the film Soylent Green released back in the 70s? Apparently it takes place in 2022
> 
> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070723/plotsummary


I think I mentioned it towards the begining of the thread lol


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> I think I mentioned it towards the begining of the thread lol


oops. I can't remember that far back


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> oops. I can't remember that far back


Don't worry I can't remember what I did 5 mins ago, normally


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

The reply I got from MacDonalds


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