# Help with papers... Bought a kitten...



## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

I have just bought a beautiful Persian kitten from a very well known breeder.
Having got her home and spoken to people about her, I think I have made a mistake.
I have been reading on here.... I wasn't given a registration certificate or pedigree as she said she would send this on to me once she has been neutered. This is the first time i've done this, so took the breeders word for it, but now I feel let down by her. 
I just got a receipt, vaccination card and free insurance.
My thing is, what should I do now..... I feel a bit duped to be honest not to mention angry at myself for not researching this first.
Thanks x


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I didn't think breeders was allowed to with hold the pedigree certificate but I do know of many who with hold registration until proof of neutering has been received and confirmed by the vet.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I know of some breeders who won't send paperwork until the cat is neutered, they foolishly think this will stop byb's from breeding their pet cats.


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## cinder (Jun 2, 2013)

A lot of breeders won't hand over the registration documents until the cat has been neutered to avoid unauthorised breeding. I'm not a breeder myself, but I understand that it's fairly common practice. I'm picking up a pair of kittens in a few weeks, and I was surprised that the breeder was going to provide all their documents up front. 

If you're feeling uncomfortable perhaps you could ask the breeder if you could at least see the documentation?


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

Its just I have been told I should have had a pedigree, I have bought a pedigree cat.
Having checked with GCCF it appears she is breaking the law and should have provided a pedigree.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I didn't think breeders was allowed to with hold the pedigree certificate


They're not, at least they're not if the kitten is GCCF registered. The problem in these cases is that the poor buyer has no idea if they are registered at all and with which registration body. As an absolute minimum for a kitten bred from GCCF registered cats the breeder must hand over a 3 generation pedigree which shows the reg numbers of the antecedents. If the kitten is not registered then they must also hand over a copy of the mating cert so the buyer can register the kitten themselves. If the kitten is registered the breeder cannot with hold the registration document unless both parties have agreed to it in writing. Alrhios, did you sign anything and if so does it state the breeder will hold onto the reg docs?


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Have you contacted her and asked for the pedigree certificate?

I got mine in a folder along with a photo disc, care sheet etc. I did get the the registration documents as well, but mine were early neutered by the breeder. Its common for breeders to keep those until the kitten has been neutered.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

It is pretty common practice. However, this is forbidden by my feline organization and I believe by law as well.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Having checked with GCCF it appears she is breaking the law and should have provided a pedigree.


She isn't breaking any law, she is acting outwith GCCF rules.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Did you sign a contract saying that you agree to neuter and send her proof to get your registration and pedigree? 

Were both parents registered and full health tested? She came to you at 12-14weeks of age? fully vac? chipped? (where possible) etc? Has the breeder got a prefix? website? 

I have found this totally normal holding back paperwork before sending it out once neutering is done, but only once a contract is signed and the buyer is aware of it, she can be neutered from now, don't wait get her done and send the proof to the breeder and hopefully she will send on the paperwork!!


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

Alrhios, did you sign anything and if so does it state the breeder will hold onto the reg docs?[/QUOTE]

She has written on the receipt that pedigree and reg docs handed over following neutering.
She has filled out a contract which says show potential.... how could I show without the papers?
Im not sure what to do...


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

From GCCF website:

According to the Sale of Goods and the Trades Description Acts, someone selling a kitten as
pedigree must provide proof of that at the point of sale; the seller HAS to provide the
pedigree and if the kitten is just declared or unregistered, HAS to provide the certificate of
mating.
Some breeders think they can get round all of this hassle by withholding paperwork until the
new owner provides proof the cat has been neutered. It must be realised though that this is
against the law and the new owner could take the breeder to court and WIN. Breeders HAVE
to provide the necessary paperwork, the Sale of Goods Act is adamant about this and the GCCF
has to comply with the requirements


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> She has written on the receipt that pedigree and reg docs handed over following neutering.


Unless that was also signed by you at the time then both parties have not agreed *in writing*.



> 10b. If, at time of sale, the cat or kitten is registered the seller shall provide the purchaser with a transfer form, duly completed and signed by the seller,unless it is jointly agreed* in writing by both parties *at the time of sale not to do so.


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

She doenst WANt me to neauter yet. Wants me to wait until shes 6 months old.....


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

No, that wasn't signed by me. She just scribbled that on the receipt.
The bit I signed, said SHOW POTENTIAL and PET, but nothing about paper work


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Why does she want you to wait? I know Persians usually mature more slowly than Orientals, but I still see no value in waiting. 

Do you want to show? You need to transfer her into your name to do that and without the signed registration card you can't do that.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

alrhios said:


> I have just bought a beautiful Persian kitten from a very well known breeder.
> Having got her home and spoken to people about her, I think I have made a mistake.
> I have been reading on here.... I wasn't given a registration certificate or pedigree as she said she would send this on to me once she has been neutered. This is the first time i've done this, so took the breeders word for it, but now I feel let down by her.
> I just got a receipt, vaccination card and free insurance.
> ...


You should have been give a pedigree certificate even if the breeder is witholding the registration until proof of neutering


spotty cats said:


> I know of some breeders who won't send paperwork until the cat is neutered, *they foolishly think this will stop byb's from breeding their pet cats*.


Bybs have no regard for paperwork of any kind - I agree Spotty Cats, it is foolish, if common practice, to think it will make any difference.


cinder said:


> A lot of breeders won't hand over the registration documents until the cat has been neutered to avoid unauthorised breeding. I'm not a breeder myself, but I understand that it's fairly common practice. I'm picking up a pair of kittens in a few weeks, and I was surprised that the breeder was going to provide all their documents up front.
> 
> *If you're feeling uncomfortable perhaps you could ask the breeder if you could at least see the documentation*?


I go along with this. You should at least be able to see the relevant certificate of the mother and a mating certificate to be sure that this is not a byb.
Alhiros you need to go back to the breeder with the concerns you have raised here - including the fact that you can't show her without the paperwork.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Whoever chose to put that up on the GCCF website doesn't really understand SoGA. The sale of a kitten by a breeder comes under private sales, it isn't a commercial transaction. You are in the right to demand the paperwork though under GCCF rules and you can go through them if necessary to get this sorted.



> She doenst WANt me to neauter yet. Wants me to wait until shes 6 months old.....


This is your kitten and you will do whatever you and your vet decide is right.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> I know of some breeders who won't send paperwork until the cat is neutered, they foolishly think this will stop byb's from breeding their pet cats.


The only absolutely 100% way to stop a BYB using one of my kittens is to early neuter them. Thankfully I've found a lovely vet who is more than happy to do that for me.


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

I only got the kitten today, she is 19weeks old. As far as I can tell, she hasn't registered her yet with GCCF. I just feel silly that I didn't research all the paperwork bit first. I have no problem with her withholding the transfer part, but feel shes been unfair to me. Ive given her £500 for the kitten and she knows she should have given me the pedigree.
I know when I ring her, she will dig her heals in and say no until shes neutered. Surely though it is my choice to discuss with my vet when I choose to have her neutered and I should still have had the appropriate papers.
Im just not sure what to do.....


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Is her prefix registered with the GCCF? If it is, talk to them.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

alrhios said:


> she knows she should have given me the pedigree.


Aren't your pedigrees just home generated by the breeder? (over here the pedigree comes from the governing body in the new owners name, with a registration number)

Not sure what good a home generated pedigree does you? You can't register the kitten to be shown with that.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Pedigree certificates don't mean anything without the registration certificate to back them up but they should still be supplied with a kitten


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I agree, you have paid a lot of money for a pedigree kitten, therefore the very least the breeder could do is supply said kitten with a certificate - as far as I am aware this would take half an hour to put together on excel


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Do you syill have a copy of the original advert?

If it says "Pedigree" and "GCCF Registered" then those items of paperwork MUST be given on sale, under Trading Standards.

The only time it is legal to withhold them is if the breeder has given you paperwork stating the reasons for the withholding, which you have agreed with and signed. (and given a copy to keep),


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If it says "Pedigree" and "GCCF Registered" then those items of paperwork MUST be given on sale, under Trading Standards


I'm not at all sure this is correct. There's nothing officially 'legal' about GCCF paperwork. I know the GCCF have made a very good job of muddling their rules in with SoGA in their website comment but this doesn't make it law. The GCCF rules on paperwork are very different from TICA's and both are perfectly good registration bodies. A breeder who registers with TICA isn't breaking the law because they don't work to GCCF rules.

Alrhios, do you know which registration body your breeder uses? This can be sorted but the way forward does depend on knowing where this kitten (or its parents) are registered.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

havoc said:


> I'm not at all sure this is correct. There's nothing officially 'legal' about GCCF paperwork.


It's not to do with the GCCF but Trading Standards.

If the advert clearly states Registered and Pedigree (doesn't matter which registry) and there is no registration and/or pedigree handed over at sale, then it's in breach of the advertising standards.... i.e. not as described.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Alrhios, would you mind private messaging me the name of your breeder? I'm a Persian breeder myself, so will be able to give you a heads up on whether you're likely to get any joy with her or not. It's worrying that she hasn't registered the kitten wiht GCCF at 19 weeks old though. Normally this is done much earlier.


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

I didn't see an advert, I rang on an off chance as I had seen she does very well at shows and is a well known breeder.... if a little scatty! lol.
She told me the kitten would be registered but non active, which is fine.
She is registered with GCCF and she has given me the pedigree name for the kitten.... but she said she hasn't registered her yet and will do so when she has confirmation of the neutering...
I think I will ring GCCF on Monday, explain whats happened and see what they advise. I don't want to fall out with her, and I dint want to breed which I told her. I understand she will b wary as there are a lot of people who would be dishonest, but I now have doubts as to the kittens history. It might well be all above board, but this sort of thing sets you wondering... why withhold a pedigree?
I now see the kitten has a suspected eye infection. This wasn't showing when I got her, but hers eyes are very 'sticky/green' so a trip to the vets too!


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

Hi Carly, I would but I cant see an option for pm?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

alrhios said:


> Hi Carly, I would but I cant see an option for pm?


I think you need 25 posts before you can send messages


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

Thank you x


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

alrhios said:


> Thank you x


Can you repeat that? :lol:


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

I can indeed! THANK YOU! To everyone, its great to get other peoples opinions here x


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> It's not to do with the GCCF but Trading Standards.
> 
> If the advert clearly states Registered and Pedigree (doesn't matter which registry) and there is no registration and/or pedigree handed over at sale, then it's in breach of the advertising standards.... *i.e. not as described.[/*QUOTE]
> If the kitten is registered and pedigree then it is exactly as described, if it were wrongly advertised as such then yes, it would be misrepresentation. The handing over of any paperwork is an internal GCCF matter which is completely separate and only governed by GCCF rules which are nothing to do with law.
> ...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Aren't your pedigrees just home generated by the breeder?


Yes they are but they must contain full details for at least three generations including registration numbers. That's how a new owner can register the kitten themselves if the breeder hasn't done so as long as they also have details of the sire. The rule about handing over a copy of a mating cert if a kitten is unregistered takes care of that bit


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

'She' is registered meaning the breeder. The kitten isn't... she said she would register her when i've had her neutered. I will ring GCCF on Monday and get their advice x


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

alrhios said:


> Hi Carly, I would but I cant see an option for pm?


You've now made enough posts to use the PM facility if you want to get in touch with Carly


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I will ring GCCF on Monday and get their advice x


It's only fair you give the breeder a chance to put this right first so email or phone her with what you've learned on here. This breeder wouldn't be alone in simply not understanding her obligations under GCCF rules. The paperwork is the bit we all hate. Do you want me to list the pertinent bits in one post for you rather than you go through the thread trying to pick them out?


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

If you like that would help. She is a lovely lady and I don't want to upset or fall out with her. I just feel that she's let me down. Im sure she is very understanding of GCCF paperwork, she has bred many kittens over many years x


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

You would be surprised how many breeders go for years 'breaking' the rules and in most cases it's ignorance rather than malice  You are entitled to the right paperwork and it will be much easier (and cheaper) for everyone involved if it's sorted amicably.

This is the important bit


> Transfer of Registration - Section 1 Rule 10
> 10a When a cat or kitten is advertised or sold as a pedigree cat or kitten, the breeder shall, at the time of sale, provide the purchaser with a properly completed pedigree signed by the breeder, carrying 3 generations at least showing all the breed numbers and registration numbers and also the breeder's name and address. If the vendor is not the breeder, the pedigree must additionally be signed by the vendor. If the cat/kitten is not registered, a copy of the mating certificate (Rule 3d) shall be supplied by the vendor to the new owner.
> 10b. If, at time of sale, the cat or kitten is registered the seller shall provide the purchaser with a transfer form, duly completed and signed by the seller,unless it is jointly agreed in writing by both parties at the time of sale not to do so.


Your reference is the GCCF Code of Ethics
Go to this link and look for Code of Ethics, 4th down on the right hand side of the screen 
the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy

Now if your breeder is still resistant you may wish to draw her attention to the suspension lists.
the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy
You are interested in the third category - Fixed Penalty Suspensions for a Breach of GCCF Rules
If you submit a complaint she'll be given a chance to send you the paperwork. If she doesn't she will get a fifty quid fine and be told to send you the paperwork. If she pays and sends then her name will not appear on that list. If she doesn't comply then she will go on that list and won't be able to register any more kittens with the GCCF. I'm hopeful you won't need to point this out but you have it ready. Knowledge is power and all that 

And adding
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...-12zibyVp41D2mcqg&sig2=eMEJGYKCRchuSRHJ-LLgeg
The pertinent rule is 3f on page 4


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

thank you, I will give her a call tomorrow x


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Alrhios, now that you can PM, I really would like to know the prefix of the breeder, and also whether you managed to get everything sorted out or not.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

alrhios said:


> She doenst WANt me to neauter yet. Wants me to wait until shes 6 months old.....


The breeder would not give you the documents and would not let you neuter the kitten?
This is simply not fair. What if you want to show the kitten? Wait until 6 months old? 
At present some breeders do early neutering by 13 weeks old, and 4 months is perfectly fine. And it is your choice anyway.


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

i cant get her on the phone, but she couls be away so ill give it a few days. hopefully i will hace all this sorted soon. she didnt neuter as she thinks its to young


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_hope you get in touch with her and get it sorted, in the mean time do you have any pictures of your new kitten so we can see it pretty please _


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Once your kitten is well I don't think 20 weeks is too young to neuter, hopefully your vet won't either. (my kittens were castrated at 13 weeks with no problems)

If he does you can try the Cats Protection page that finds early neutering vets:

Find an Early Neutering Vet

It's not entirely accurate but a few phone calls should find you one fairly easily, unless you are unlucky enough to live in an EN desert.


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