# Dog Whisperer UK



## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Have just seen an ad for the new series of Dog Whisperer which is based in the UK, starting next Tuesday on NatGeo. Will be interesting to see how the mighty toothed one gets on with UK dog owners and more importantly, if he has changed his tactics compared to the endless repeats of his old shows.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

It's tomorrow isn't it?


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I saw an advert saying next week so maybe tomorrow :thumbup:

will be interesting to watch though, I always enjoy his shows


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

*Shudders* :scared:


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Shrap said:


> It's tomorrow isn't it?


Yep, that'd be Tuesday

The Dog Whisperer TV Show - National Geographic Channel - UK

There are a few videos on there and after watching just two the words 'pack' and 'dominance' are still there. Disappointed.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

The series was filmed last summer I believe. A friend of mine was walking her Shelties somewhere in Buckinghamshire when he arrived complete with film crew, dogs and handlers.


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## Joules&Greyhounds (Jan 31, 2011)

That is one way to liven up a walk, at least!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

It will be interesting to see if his show differs any over there I will be watching for your opinions....


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> It will be interesting to see if his show differs any over there I will be watching for your opinions....


Better prepare for war :lol:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Oh wow! I love all the dog training progs and his is no exception. Will be looking out for it! 

Must have been filmed when he was doing his UK tour last year - saw him at Wembley in March.


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

Im the same will be looking to see if any of his methods have moved with the times or changed due to being over here. 
Have to say it is the most irratating advert in a long while, Makes my skin crawl


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## critter (Sep 14, 2010)

XxZoexX said:


> Im the same will be looking to see if any of his methods have moved with the times or changed due to being over here.
> Have to say it is the most irratating advert in a long while, Makes my skin crawl


Hi, sounds like you've already made your mind up!. wayne.


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

critter said:


> Hi, sounds like you've already made your mind up!. wayne.


No not at all havent seen any since the very early series' so cant really make a judgement..

If you mean the advert.. well he has a cheesy face to begin with and somehow, God knows how theyve made his face even cheesier. 
Reminds me of a character out of a kids tv programme that really went through me (Of which the title i cant for the life of me remember :lol


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

XxZoexX said:


> Have to say it is the most irratating advert in a long while, Makes my skin crawl


What - worse than the Go Compare ad - surely not?


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Malmum said:


> What - worse than the Go Compare ad - surely not?


:scared: Nothing could be worse than that :lol:


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

Ok worse new advert :lol: :lol:


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## adbrad (Jan 29, 2011)

Starts tomorrow at 8.
I may take a look.


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

I've stopped watching CM, coz I don't like his methods, but will watch at least one of the UK ones to see if he's changed anything at all for the UK market. No shock collars,I hope I can't see them going down well over here!


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Oh lordy I hadn't thought of that... I really hope he doesn't use them for the UK series - could really throw a spanner in the works of the campaign to get them banned in England!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

No - surely he won't use them over here, his programme makers have more sense.......surely! :frown:


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Perhaps Millan and Stillwell could do the next Go Compare advert?


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## wynnpot (Jan 25, 2011)

Oh I'm quite disappointed I'll miss it. Damn my budget Freeview!


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

I'm gonna watch tomorrow night. See what it's like


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I think I might watch it on my Sky Player. 

My OH likes him, says what he does with dogs is really good!


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Malmum said:


> What - worse than the Go Compare ad - surely not?


Nothing is worse than that.

"Go compare, go compare....give me a bat to hit the tw** at go compare..."


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colette said:


> Oh lordy I hadn't thought of that... I really hope he doesn't use them for the UK series - could really throw a spanner in the works of the campaign to get them banned in England!


Could go the other way. It might cause so much uproar that the series will end before it starts. You can all tell me what it's like, because I have better things to watch. I think I may throw something at the tv if I even attempt it.


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## The3DChis (Jan 17, 2011)

I have it booked. :thumbup:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> It will be interesting to see if his show differs any over there I will be watching for your opinions....


Even if his techniques are different. You will still get the same "cesar basher" members who will drag up the time 30 years ago when he alpha rolled a dog


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## frodos_electric_guitar (Nov 19, 2010)

Thanks for the heads up, I like the DW and so it should be interesting seeing what he takes on this side of the pond.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'll watch it to see just how many dogs are tortured into fearful submission, sorry rehabilitated into a calm-submissive state for a week or so then rehomed because the owners can't cope


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Even if his techniques are different. You will still get the same "cesar basher" members who will drag up the time 30 years ago when he alpha rolled a dog


Has it really been 30 years since he last alpha rolled a dog, I doubt it somehow. I saw the clip below the other day and seemingly they provoke the dogs they are going to work with, the clip is taken from the 1000th show gotta love how the dog they use is wearing a prong collar.

YouTube - DW Provoking the Dog


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Whoooo it's on Tonight been looking forward to it. I'm recording the series


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## Pardalis (Jan 15, 2011)

Not being a dog owner I can't comment on his techniques but I have to confess that I have a 'thing' for Cesar Milan!! I like short men and there is something about his South American accent!

It will also be interesting to see how the British cope with the cheesy aspect of it all!

I will be watching for sure....


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

I watched a usa one this morning to compare and i wish i hadnt.. He chased a poor dog around the living room with a tennis raquet as the dog didnt like people coming into the house it was knocking everything off jumping all over the sofa to get away from him.. Untill it gave up and was shattered felt so sorry for this scared pooch


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

XxZoexX said:


> I watched a usa one this morning to compare and i wish i hadnt.. He chased a poor dog around the living room with a tennis raquet as the dog didnt like people coming into the house it was knocking everything off jumping all over the sofa to get away from him.. Untill it gave up and was shattered felt so sorry for this scared pooch


I do not understand how people can just stand there and let him do that to their dogs. If he tried that with mine, he would be straight out the door. Or will they do absolutely anything to get their mugs on the telly?


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Or will they do absolutely anything to get their mugs on the telly?


What do you think? I'm guessing a lot of them would do just about anything.

I saw an old Me or the Dog (UK version) yesterday and after VS had spent the day observing she sat the family down and as usual, gave them what for. The only person that spoke up for the dog was the teenage daughter who expressed her concern at the dog being shouted at. Obviously VS reassured her that that was not the way things should be done but I think it says a lot about what people will put up with. Just because a 'trainer' comes to your house it doesn't mean that what they do to your dog is right, you should decide what is best for your dog and if someone disagrees, then they need telling, TV or no TV.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> What do you think? I'm guessing a lot of them would do just about anything.
> 
> I saw an old Me or the Dog (UK version) yesterday and after VS had spent the day observing she sat the family down and as usual, gave them what for. The only person that spoke up for the dog was the teenage daughter who expressed her concern at the dog being shouted at. Obviously VS reassured her that that was not the way things should be done but I think it says a lot about what people will put up with. Just because a 'trainer' comes to your house it doesn't mean that what they do to your dog is right, you should decide what is best for your dog and if someone disagrees, then they need telling, TV or no TV.


I don't watch the old VS ones as she was into pack leader stuff back then, but even with that there was never anything aversive or forceful. All does with praise and treats.

She did do a recent US one though where someone had been told by another trainer to be the dogs' pack leader, and VS made fun of that. I thought that was a bit much when she used to preach it herself. She should really try to stop those old ones going on air.

I like the way she tells the owners precisely what she thinks, and she always shows them how to do things and makes sure they are doing it right before she goes. That is the whole point to make sure the owners can cope in the trainer's absence.

Personally, if someone pointed a tv camera at me I would run a mile. Can't understand wanting to be on telly.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Kinski said:


> Has it really been 30 years since he last alpha rolled a dog, I doubt it somehow. I saw the clip below the other day and seemingly they provoke the dogs they are going to work with, the clip is taken from the 1000th show gotta love how the dog they use is wearing a prong collar.
> 
> YouTube - DW Provoking the Dog


thats awful, I saw a alpha roll he did about 2 years ago on hiw show, that isnt 30years lol!!

Does anyone know why they have dressed all the english people up in those clothes on the adverts?? Is that to sell it to americans who for some reason this we all look/dress/talk like that??????? :confused1:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> thats awful, I saw a alpha roll he did about 2 years ago on hiw show, that isnt 30years lol!!
> 
> Does anyone know why they have dressed all the english people up in those clothes on the adverts?? Is that to sell it to americans who for some reason this we all look/dress/talk like that??????? :confused1:


I have fast forwarded all the adverts. What are they dressed like?


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

Like old english country folk if i remember rightly lol


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

XxZoexX said:


> I watched a usa one this morning to compare and i wish i hadnt.. He chased a poor dog around the living room with a tennis raquet as the dog didnt like people coming into the house it was knocking everything off jumping all over the sofa to get away from him.. Untill it gave up and was shattered felt so sorry for this scared pooch


Sometimes there is no other way.

I have 2 dogs who would attack you if you entered my house as a guest. We have tried everything to solve this problem. One of the reasons we moved house was because they are territorial and nervous, a bad combination. I thought it would give us a clean slate, and I knew a lot more about canine behaviours, so I thought I could stop the problem arising. Even worked with a behaviourist. It didn't work and now they are shut away, with locks on the door to make sure they don't get out!

Sometimes dogs need to be dealt with robustly. I would jump at the chance of getting this problem solved. If CM could do it just by chasing them with a tennis racket, then I'd be over the moon.

CM oftens offers a last chance to many owners. It's easy to critize when you are not the person with the problem......

It


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

So, your dog is afraid of people coming to the house, or he just doesn't like it, maybe feels protective, so you get a total stranger, preferably a man because most nervous dogs are more afraid of men, to come in the house and chase him with a tennis racquet.

What a bloody wonderful idea:scared:


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

I have to agree its not the way id want to go, 
The poor dog could easily have been injured they way it was trying to get away from him.. Jumping over furniture on the windowsill ect and tho i understand it must be a difficult situation is breaking his will really the only option?


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> Sometimes there is no other way.


I doubt that. There are many ways of dealing with behaviour problems, many of which do not require causing the dog even more stress, fear, or pain etc. But of course, the other approaches are slower, more gentle and apparently don't make good telly!



> CM oftens offers a last chance to many owners. It's easy to critize when you are not the person with the problem......


For one thing, it is often claimed that CM's methods are acceptable because they are used as a last resort, to save lives etc. But he doesn't use these methods as a last resort - but usually as a first resort, and in many cases for behaviours that are totally non-life threatening. Dogs that don't like stairs or slippery floors. Dogs that chase light. Even if one can justify using harsh treatment in extreme life or death cases, there can be no excuse for using it for every basic training job.

And of course there are many owners who have dealt with difficult, life or death, problems, and overcome them successfully without resorting to such tactics. And indeed a great many trainers, behaviourists and rescue workers who deal with dogs with this type of problem every day - again without terrifying the dogs into submission.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Is anyone watching it?

That Herbie is one lovely dog.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm going to watch it later


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> I'm going to watch it later


got it on record for 11pm since everyone decided to put good things on between 8-10


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

He's feeding the dogs treats to associate horses with them being positive


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## Balto-x (Nov 7, 2010)

Yeah it's really good! I love herbie! And he knew in the end not to be scared of the horses xx


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I was a bit disappointed, mind you I'm used to an hour long VS of one dog, going into the reasoning, and more into the training and I felt that Herbie was cut short and I couldn't understand how they got him to walk next to that collie.


Oh and as for this stupid woman, with her GSD... Sigh... "omg omg my dog is playing with his brother robustly, must call in Cesear Milan"


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## Balto-x (Nov 7, 2010)

I love the fact she was like yes I was in ab fab! Omg these two are crazy  xx


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Honestly, I really can't see the problem they had. Made up.

What is that sound his does with his voice and why does it use it instead of using "ah"?


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

What is that sound his does with his voice and why does it use it instead of using "ah"?[/QUOTE]

I always thought he was saying shush!!
Did anyone else think that the programme was toned down from the US version. It seemed differant to me, but I can't really say why.
His teeth are the real stars of the show - blinding!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Pretty good i'd say. I loved the way the sisters were holding up the umbrella - very English, lol! Liked the old Cotswolds man too. 

Flynn can walk along side a dog if i'm between them with another owner - as long as I can stay calm but he can't meet a dog head on without coming accross as aggressive - so I can see how he did that. I learned that from his other progs though!

I see he used the Illusion Collar on the first dog - so no e collars, which I didn't expect he would use anyway.

I once said after seeing The Bionic Vet on tv "wish he could fix my Flynn" and he did - so..............."I wish Cesar could fix me and Flynn" - wonder if it'll work twice?


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

It';s kind of a Tsssh sound. I'm going to try it on Duke tomorrow.


All in all, I was relatively impressed, but I thought the sections were too short and I would have liked to see more training.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Tssh doesn't work on nearly any dog but the ones he trains oddly . He generally couples it with a yank on a choke chain or prong collar so the dog knows it's bad.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

He wouldn't get one those illusion collars anywhere near mine either.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

What are those illusion collars? And why are they bad?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

No designed to hold the choke chain on the most sensitive part of the neck for maximum cutting off of air and hurting the dog


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

So he puts on a choke chain AND one of those illusion collars?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> No designed to hold the choke chain on the most sensitive part of the neck for maximum cutting off of air and hurting the dog


He thinks because he is in England he can sneak one of those things in and we won't notice.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Or a thin collar which when he yanks on it it's still on the most sensitive part of the neck.


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

Ha, they were all lovely dogs  Seems better than some of his episodes


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> He thinks because he is in England he can sneak one of those things in and we won't notice.


He has to realise he's not in the US. I'm always so surprised at how accepted choke chains, prong and shock collars are over there. But I guess people who ask him to come "rehabilitate" their dogs have already swallowed all his crap and would let him or of course they will have to KILL THEIR DOGS


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Tssh doesn't work on nearly any dog but the ones he trains oddly . He generally couples it with a yank on a choke chain or prong collar so the dog knows it's bad.


Actually it does work on many dogs, have tried it on a few but you have to have other energies going on too, like calmness and intention!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I won't deny calmness is vital in training I've met a few people can walk in and take control of a dog straight away. I would call them calm-assertive never seen one of them go on to pin a dog to the floor or hang it by a choke chain.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Two days ago. I took Duke to the park.

I walked him up and down this path, "heel, sit, heel" treating, goodboy etc. 

I felt so good that he was walking so nicely, we saw this labrador whose owner stopped to say hello to Lollie who was with my OH.

He saw the dog, "watch me" treat. He turned, saw the dog, straight back at me "good boy" in a very calm voice, nothing exciting.

Anyhow. I managed, to get him without telling him, to walk to heel, towards the dog, didn't pull once. Got him to sit when he was within arms reach of the other dog and let him off.

Amazing.

Yesterday, Duke pulled me to the ground because I was all rushed around, he was attempting to get at this boxer on the other side, bruised the outside of my hand. 

It's getting into that state of mind, being calm and relaxed that I think myself and other owners find difficult. But what I've realised is that no amount of choke chains are going to work because it's not Duke's fault he's too excited to meet dogs, it's my fault for not being calm-assertive.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> The Dog Whisperer TV Show - National Geographic Channel - UK
> 
> ...after watching just two [videos], the words 'pack' and 'dominance' are still there. Disappointed.


yup - Harriet & Matilda, the women 'nurtured instinct' by letting the pups chase squirrels, 
and now that's HOW THEY DOMINATE; the dogs are *protecting the women* by going ahead on walks... 
how about, *the dogs are doing 25-mph and the women are doing 8-mph, 
how long will it take to catch up with the dogs, and can the women keep pace?* :lol: 
new math... :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Perhaps *Millan* and Stillwell could do the next *Go Compare* advert?


_Like...  _


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Even if his techniques are different. You will still get the same "cesar basher" members
> who will drag up the time 30 years ago when he alpha rolled a dog


LOL - he's only been in the public-eye in the USA since 2006 - when Natl-Geo had him in a 30-min 
NON-prime-time slot. :lol: and he did not make it to UK-tv that first season, either.


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## Balto-x (Nov 7, 2010)

Answer me this please were all the dogs and owners not happier at the end? Did they look half hung to death or abused?


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> LOL - he's only been in the public-eye in the USA since 2006 - when Natl-Geo had him in a 30-min
> NON-prime-time slot. :lol: and he did not make it to UK-tv that first season, either.


Just to inform you that the first season was aired here, it was aired on Sky one   and not that long ago the first season as played on nat geo wild


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Actually it does work on many dogs, have tried it on a few but you have to have other energies going on too, like calmness and intention!


Agree, thats the noise (or similar) i use with my dogs and it always works. Same with the horses infact.

I thought the episode tonight was actually very good. I didnt see any rough handling going on, the dogs looked relaxed and happy. Much improved on the last american episode I saw


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Kinski said:


> ...seemingly they provoke the dogs they are going to work with, the clip is... from the 1000th show -
> gotta love how the dog they use is wearing a prong collar.
> 
> YouTube - DW Provoking the Dog


oops, it's the one HUNDREDTH show - not the 1,000th  yes - there has always been a strong belief 
that the dogs were agitated, and this is obviously proof - using a *dog-aggressive dog* who has been 
adopted by a show-staffer is IMO even worse, if possible, than just using any excited dog who barks. :nonod:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> He's feeding the dogs treats to associate horses with them being positive


_U are kidding! :scared: was the dog under threshold, 
and could eat at the time? or he offered the food, the dog would 
not eat, and he announced "treats don't work" ? [that's what happened 
in the past - he'd have the dog already flooded, THEN offer food. and of course, 
the dog would sniff it and turn away. :huh: ]_


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Or he's yanked on a prong collar, done the finger poke thing, kicked the dog in the side, the dog barked when people went past the door, and none of those worked. He then waved some cheese under the dogs nose and it wouldn't have cared if 100 people and their dogs were outside he had it sitting calmly no problem. Yet his methods were still better?


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Sometimes there is no other way.
> 
> I have 2 dogs who would attack you if you entered my house as a guest. We have tried everything to solve this problem. One of the reasons we moved house was because they are territorial and nervous, a bad combination. I thought it would give us a clean slate, and I knew a lot more about canine behaviours, so I thought I could stop the problem arising. Even worked with a behaviourist. It didn't work and now they are shut away, with locks on the door to make sure they don't get out!
> 
> ...


:thumbup:Totally Agree With you There :thumbup: *If All These people who Critize Him Can do Better......Why Arn't They Dog Behaviourists?????*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Flynn can walk along side a dog if i'm between them with another owner ...
> but he can't meet a dog head on without [seeming] aggressive - so I can see how he did that.


head-on is not 'polite' dog greeting-behavior; dog etiquette is to approach in an arc, 
not arrow in nose-to-nose -- so head-on is always extremely stressful & challenging. 
most dog-social dogs *learn* to cope with it when on a leash, as we give them little choice, 
but off-leash they prefer dog-polite meetings: arc, slow down before entering personal space, shoulder-on, etc..


Malmum said:


> ...he used the Illusion Collar on the first dog - so no [shock] collars, which I didn't expect he would use anyway.


the Illusion collar is nothing but a skinny slip-collar of nylon, inside a sleeve at the top of a pair 
of collars that support it like a cervical brace - it's a choke-collar.  it just does not look like one.


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## The3DChis (Jan 17, 2011)

I enjoyed it and the dogs were gorgeous, especially the black German shepards. :thumbup:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The dalmation puppy than ran away and stole food
Standard poodle that spun around when it saw cars
Newfie that would barely eat or walk
Dog that ran away when the owner sneezed
Shelties that barked in the car

They were all clearly seconds from being taken to the vet and euthanised really


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> Standard poodle that spun around when it saw cars
> 
> They were all clearly seconds from being taken to the vet and euthanised really


That dog was a fcking death hazard! He could have very easily knocked her over or even got himself hit by an on coming car.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> *The dalmation puppy than ran away and stole food*Standard poodle that spun around when it saw cars
> Newfie that would barely eat or walk
> Dog that ran away when the owner sneezed
> Shelties that barked in the car
> ...


Gee that's a hard and unusual one :lol: The only sensible things I have seen or heard that man say are..... Treat a dog like a dog and give it work to do!!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The puppy was a fire station dog. They were shocked when it wasn't housetrained when they got it. When they got called out the food was often left there surprise surprise the puppy stole the food and he often ran out the door when they were going out on a call. Yet he was clearly dominating the whole fire station by doing this


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

I like to see naughty Dalmatians,....My first Dalmatian would climb out the window raid the wheelie bin climb back in the window and chow down on the sofa... No shame what so ever Dalmatians daft or clever ???


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

I missed this because I get last pick of the tv programs in this house 
Can I watch it online by any chance ?


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

shazalhasa said:


> I missed this because I get last pick of the tv programs in this house
> Can I watch it online by any chance ?


Look for it, it's played a few times this week :lol: I put it on record for 11pm for the same reason


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

will have to check if it's on sometime tomorrow or in the week.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> So he puts on a choke chain AND one of those illusion collars?


he does not need to -add- a choke; there's one built-in. 
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images21/CollarIllusionTrainingDog1.jpg

notice the skinny cord up the top? THAT is the slip-cord - 
the rest is just the 'illusion'.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

Balto-x said:


> Answer me this please were all the dogs and owners not happier at the end? Did they look half hung to death or abused?


As we didn't see any of the methods he used to get the dogs to walk properly, accept horses, dogs ect it's hard to tell, and what was the time scale, it would have been nice to see how he did it. Was it my imagination or did he seem to play to the camera more here than he does in America.



leashedForLife said:


> oops, it's the one HUNDREDTH show - not the 1,000th  :


ooops 

For those of you that missed it, it's on at 10am this morning.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> :thumbup:Totally Agree With you There :thumbup: *If All These people who Critize Him Can do Better......Why Arn't They Dog Behaviourists?????*


Some of them are, they are just not on the telly


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## Balto-x (Nov 7, 2010)

Do u think dog lovers would let him hurt or cause suffering to there dog?? I certainly wouldn't if I thought something was causing balto pain I would take him away from the situation, but yet 100's of people want him to help there dogs that speaks volumes. Not everyone is a brainless moron who let there dogs get stressed by whatever upsets them alot of people seek help in the likes cm and I have never seen an episode where he hasn't helped


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Balto-x said:


> Do u think dog lovers would let him hurt or cause suffering to there dog?? I certainly wouldn't if I thought something was causing balto pain I would take him away from the situation, but yet 100's of people want him to help there dogs that speaks volumes. Not everyone is a brainless moron who let there dogs get stressed by whatever upsets them alot of people seek help in the likes cm and I have never seen an episode where he hasn't helped


As I said before, some people will do anything to get themselves on the telly.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

* I missed it,but will have to watch it when its repeated.I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about where Cesar is concernd,some people will like some won't.But then that applies to most things in life.I still think the guy is fantasic.:thumbup:*


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## Lyra5 (Feb 9, 2011)

I was disappointed that the programme is only going out on NatGeoHD at the moment, as we don't subscribe to it. I hope it will be screened on an alternative programme eventually.
I have seen his programmes in the States and his books are very good too.


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## teddyboylove (Jul 31, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> Nothing is worse than that.
> 
> "Go compare, go compare....give me a bat to hit the tw** at go compare..."


LOL - the ad did the trick though - you remember 'go compare' just for the sheer irritation of it


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

I don't like all of his methods but shush and a little gentle pone works with mine


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> As I said before, some people will do anything to get themselves on the telly.


I don't think that is the ONLY reason, though it probably applies to many!

I think some dog owners are genuinely ignorant about dog training methods and if they were brought up seeing similar archaic "physical" enforcement dog training, why will they worry about Caesar's antics? 

Others will see CM as the "expert" and if not confident/self assured enough
feel unable to question him or stop him ... Others? Well I guess they are desperate and see CM as the "last chance saloon" ....


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Even if they do it's shushed away as silly little woman babying her dog or it's not really hurting them/breaking their spirit


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## critter (Sep 14, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> :thumbup:Totally Agree With you There :thumbup: *If All These people who Critize Him Can do Better......Why Arn't They Dog Behaviourists?????*


Hi, Totally agree with you snoopydo, I like CM and would watch his shows if we had Sky, I've noticed in the past that there are a lot of people on this Forum who will knock CM at every opportunity, what's the matter don't your tv's have an on off switch?, I know that he has rescued a lot of Death Row dogs in the States which surely counts in his favour?, anyone who can walk and be in control of a pack of 30 dogs gets my vote. wayne.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

critter said:


> Hi, Totally agree with you snoopydo, I like CM and would watch his shows if we had Sky, I've noticed in the past that there are a lot of people on this Forum who will knock CM at every opportunity, what's the matter don't your tv's have an on off switch?, I know that he has rescued a lot of Death Row dogs in the States which surely counts in his favour?, anyone who can walk and be in control of a pack of 30 dogs gets my vote. wayne.


It is not about the TV show per se, it is about people adopting his methods without realizing they can be dangerous and also worsening the initial issue with the dog...

My dog got bitten as a result of this, a friend's dog got bitten also as a result of a trainer using his methods. Being bitten seems acceptable by Cm, part of the process.. which process, teaching the dog he has no alternative?


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## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

I missed it too much good tv on a Tuesday for me will have to wait for it to w repeated!!

I agree with a lot of stuff he says I don't always agree with everything he does but you have to remember tv shows are heavily edited you don't see everything startto finish he may well have tried other things before idk!! I've seem him use treats a lot so I don't think he is always heavy handed


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

dodigna said:


> It is not about the TV show per se, it is about people adopting his methods without realizing they can be dangerous and also worsening the initial issue with the dog...
> 
> My dog got bitten as a result of this, a friend's dog got bitten also as a result of a trainer using his methods. Being bitten seems acceptable by Cm, part of the process.. which process, teaching the dog he has no alternative?


*But surely that could be said about a lot of things we view on the telly..The programe Jack Ass comes to mind.*


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *But surely that could be said about a lot of things we view on the telly..The programe Jack Ass comes to mind.*


this comparison has been made before, but in my opinion if one chooses to be an idiot and end up hurting himself in the name of fun so be it.. comes to mind the stupid things you do as a teenager...

But when you involve an animal or even worse, some one else's animal in the name of "training" or "whispering" or whatever average Joe think they are doing, that's when I have a problem with the show...

If some one wants to have a stunt in a field and end up killing themselves how is that affecting anybody? Should they affect some one else then surely there are laws to appeal to? Not being any real regulation in dog training people will and do hang dogs from a tree, people will and do kick them so hard in their side that the dog will be sent side ways because they are frustrated that the "tap" is not working it magic as seen on the TV... Seen this with my own eyes done to 3 Border Collies being walked by an official dog walker...
People will and do use the alpha roll as a punishment for dogs refusing to do anything, seen done with my own eyes by a woman to a tiny dachshunds, she was slamming the poor dog to its side every 5 steps for not walking properly and screaming at her she was spoilt...

sorry, it is not the show, it is the morons at home that think it's all about quick fixes... therefore it has to be about the show...


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2011)

dodigna said:


> this comparison has been made before, but in my opinion if one chooses to be an idiot and end up hurting himself in the name of fun so be it.. comes to mind the stupid things you do as a teenager...
> 
> But when you involve an animal or even worse, some one else's animal in the name of "training" or "whispering" or whatever average Joe think they are doing, that's when I have a problem with the show...
> 
> ...


I agree about the poor comparison. Shows like jackass, a well rounded individual (adult) can see that copying jackass stunts will get you hurt. They are stupid stunts that are dangerous. It is plain to see and obvious.

Alot of people DONT understand dogs, their signals or body language, and so wont recognise when CM does something that appears to a more au fait individual to be scaring the dog, making it nervous, or shutting it down. A Layman will see this uncomfortable dog as suddenly behaving.

The obviousness is taken away, as the majority dont understand dogs.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I agree- the most annoying thing is that NatGeo have allowed the programme to be aired and, thus, many owners are attempting these stupid methods at home. As humans, we always want to control everything and so Cesar's pack leader, dominance-based philosophy and methodology is very attractive...especially when people are shown it "working" on TV and are told that, by using his methods, we are becoming more in tune with our dogs. Unfortunately, many people can not see through his cheesy smile and flowery sensationalism. I work in a rescue organisation and if I attempted some of his 'jabbing' motions, then I'm sure I would have been bitten a number of times by now. CM says he thinks about the dog's welfare, but has repeatedly shown that he is willing to push a dog into absolute shutdown or fear-aggressiveness to stop a behaviour. 

In reality (and this is something people NEED to get over and realise) is that Cesar's philosophy is outdated, it has been proven to be based on flawed research and ideologies about canine social structures, and Cesar is a business man who, although I am sure he once was for the dogs 100%, is sticking to his guns because he's been so successful rather than realising that his methods are not liked by the majority. This may sound as if I am saying that "I'm right and you're wrong"...and you'd be right, but the difference is I have a wealth of evidence to back my views up and Cesar Millan has...well, himself. Many pack theorists have now changed their views in the last 30 years. Let's hope it takes Cesar slightly less time.

CM followers may say that everyone has their own method and ways. However, this is a silly defense when there's so much evidence against the pack leader/dominance theories now. 

For the record, I am not really a fan of Victoria Stilwell either. She does use more humane methods and shows that it works, but her whole get-up and act implies a dominating 'feel' that I just don't like. 

I am sure this thread was not intended for a battle ground, but IMO if you're going to start such a thread, you've fired the first bullet.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

dodigna said:


> this comparison has been made before, but in my opinion if one chooses to be an idiot and end up hurting himself in the name of fun so be it.. comes to mind the stupid things you do as a teenager...
> 
> But when you involve an animal or even worse, some one else's animal in the name of "training" or "whispering" or whatever average Joe think they are doing, that's when I have a problem with the show...
> 
> ...


*But you CAN apply that to a lot of things on tele. these days...I have seen things on kids cartoons that i think are a bit over the top.But like it or not,thats life and we HAVE to work out for ourselves what is right or wrong.Its called common sence,nothing new there imo.*


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I have to admit last night's episode I liked how he dealt with the cocker. Not one mention of he's dominating you by pretending to be scared of getting in the car. I believe there was even food used to get him in a vast improvement from the last dog who was scared of the car. She was dragged in by a prong collar. The belgian shepherd crosses though, they were not pure gsds, were being dominant because the owners had allowed them to chase squirrels? And he had an illusion collar on the first dog and alpha rolled it.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> :thumbup:Totally Agree With you There :thumbup: *If All These people who Critize Him Can do Better......Why Arn't They Dog Behaviourists?????*


Are you really so naive?! Does every good musician, animal behaviourist, football player, rugby player, dancer, love-maker, scientist, author, poet, actor get on TV and/or reach the top of their game? No.

CM is attractive to NatGeo because he has a charming personality, knows how to preach his methods and, to put it bluntly, is an excellent bullsh***er. This does not mean that his methods are good or work as well as they seem to or are the best for the dog. I could easily get a dog to stop jumping up by jabbing him in the side...easy. But why don't I? Because I want to teach my dog to understand good behaviour, rather than just not do bad behaviours because he is scared of the consequences.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Savahl said:


> I agree about the poor comparison. Shows like jackass, a well rounded individual (adult) can see that copying jackass stunts will get you hurt. They are stupid stunts that are dangerous. It is plain to see and obvious.
> 
> Alot of people DONT understand dogs, their signals or body language, and so wont recognise when CM does something that appears to a more au fait individual to be scaring the dog, making it nervous, or shutting it down. A Layman will see this uncomfortable dog as suddenly behaving.
> 
> *The obviousness is taken away, as the majority dont understand dogs*.


Neither does the DW, which is why I cannot stand his show. He does not understand dog body language at all. I don't care how many shows people watch when he is being benign, it only needs one shock collar,prong collar, illusion collar, lead jerk, hanging, to make it obvious he does not know what he is doing. Anyone who can do what he does to dogs, albeit not on every episode, is not a dog lover and has no business being on the telly and calling himself whatever it is he calls himself.

If you were to hang a dog up till it almost passes out, in public, you would be charged with animal abuse. Yet he can get himself on international television doing the exact same thing and people say what a wonderful trainer he is. It is a disgrace.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

Just thought id give my 2 pennies worth.

I personally am a fan of ceaser, i think his methids work, he dosnt always use heavy handed methods, he use's treats and other methods too and he adapts his method to the dog he dosnt treat them all the same, we dont see all that happens in a session with him as it is edited. 

The whole alpha role thing i also agree with, he uses it on dominant dogs, just like in a pack an alpha dog would do to another i dont see anything wrong with it. 

My partner is a bigger fan of ceaser than me and if my partner hadnt have watched and read ceasers books he problie wouldnt have still got hooch, hooch was a very hyper pup and my partner got to the point where he thought he could no longer cope until he found ceaser, started the tssst etc. 
Now he can walk hooch without a lead and he will walk right beside him not interested in other dogs people etc hes such a well behaved boy. 

Ceaser isnt for everyone but the world would be a pritty boring place if we liked the same stuff and all agreed. 

I think hes great and admire him all he does, all the dogs who would be killed if he hadnt have taken in and rehilbilitated them.

Each to there own


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Rottiefan said:


> Are you really so naive?! Does every good musician, animal behaviourist, football player, rugby player, dancer, love-maker, scientist, author, poet, actor get on TV and/or reach the top of their game? No.
> 
> CM is attractive to NatGeo because he has a charming personality, knows how to preach his methods and, to put it bluntly, is an excellent bullsh***er. This does not mean that his methods are good or work as well as they seem to or are the best for the dog. I could easily get a dog to stop jumping up by jabbing him in the side...easy. But why don't I? Because I want to teach my dog to understand good behaviour, rather than just not do bad behaviours because he is scared of the consequences.


*lol the same could be said for David Beckam and the likes.But i for one can't stand football so i don't watch it it.Now all of those people moaning about CM,why can't they just turn over and watch something they DO LIKE?*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> I agree- the most annoying thing is that NatGeo have allowed the programme to be aired and, thus, many owners are attempting these stupid methods at home. As humans, we always want to control everything and so Cesar's pack leader, dominance-based philosophy and methodology is very attractive...especially when people are shown it "working" on TV and are told that, by using his methods, we are becoming more in tune with our dogs. Unfortunately, many people can not see through his cheesy smile and flowery sensationalism. I work in a rescue organisation and if I attempted some of his 'jabbing' motions, then I'm sure I would have been bitten a number of times by now. CM says he thinks about the dog's welfare, but has repeatedly shown that he is willing to push a dog into absolute shutdown or fear-aggressiveness to stop a behaviour.
> 
> In reality (and this is something people NEED to get over and realise) is that Cesar's philosophy is outdated, it has been proven to be based on flawed research and ideologies about canine social structures, and Cesar is a business man who, although I am sure he once was for the dogs 100%, is sticking to his guns because he's been so successful rather than realising that his methods are not liked by the majority. This may sound as if I am saying that "I'm right and you're wrong"...and you'd be right, but the difference is I have a wealth of evidence to back my views up and Cesar Millan has...well, himself. Many pack theorists have now changed their views in the last 30 years. Let's hope it takes Cesar slightly less time.
> 
> ...


The thing with VS is that, even if you follow her methods, you are causing no harm to anyone. Her methods are harmless, even if the dog does not improve under the owner's training, he does not get worse.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Just my cents about the "its only tv" line....

There are many programmes I don't like, so I don't watch them. That's fine, I watch tv to be entertained, so if a show doesn't entertain me I switch over.

As for shows like Jack Ass and similar - these are purely entertainment. The guys doing the stunts put themselves - and ONLY themselves at risk. They do not cause any harm to any one else - human or animal.
If people watching this show are crazy enough to attempt the stunts themselves, they will hurt ONLY themselves. That's their choice - I might think its mad, but it is their health they put at risk.

Obviously many shows are pure fiction. I don't believe in a secret society of witches and wizars just because I watch the Harry Potter films - because they are shown as fiction, and personally I understnd the difference between fiction and reality.

The Dog Whisperer is different. It is portrayed as a non-fiction, educational show. Milans theories, despite being outdated and widely discredited are presented as fact. The whole point of the show is pretty much to tell the audience: 
"If you do not raise your dog according to these principles he will become dominant and develop behaviour problems. If your dog does have behaviour problems, they are probably caused by dominance, so these are the methods that are needed".

CM's theories and methods are presented as being accurate, up to date, effective, safe and humane. And of course, this is exactly how they appear to the untrained eye. The vast majority of viewers have no knowledge of dog behaviour, body language, learning theory, etc. so they believe everything they hear on the show.

The problem I have with this is two-fold:

1) IMO CM uses harsh methods based on false theories. The result is that he causes suffering - pain / fear / distress / stress to hundreds of dogs, and in some cases risks causing injury to either dog or owner, or causing further behavioural problems.

For this reason, I no more enjoy watching him than I would enjoy watching an expose about the abuse of circus animals, or a dog fight. Behind the facade of a big smile and etheral explanation, all I see is animals being abused under the pretense of training. It both angers and saddens me.

2) If CM was simply harming only the dogs he worked with, I would still feel for those dogs ubt at least the damage would be limited.

However, as he is now a prime time tv star he has beamed his outdated theories and violent methodology into thousands upon thousands of homes, where people fall for the charm and adopt his techniques.

This has resulted in a great many owners feeling they are now competing with their dogs (where no such competition exists) and has led to many of them resorting to harsh, painful, dangerous methods because CM has convinced them they are necessary and appropriate.

The same has occured with trainers - before CMs rise to fame, the old school dominance trainers were becoming few and far between. Humane, non-violent training was the accepted way, with a boom in clicker training in particular. The wrold of dog training had evolved to be far more effective, far more safe (for both animal and human parties) and far more dog-friendly. Since the shows inception it has spawned a number of copycap trainers, who are cashing in on the latest dominance, yank and stomp phase. Dog training and behaviour therapy has gone back 30 years. 

CM may only have harmed a relatively small number of dogs himself, but he has been the direct cause of a vast amount of unnecessary suffering worldwide.

THIS is why I am so against the show - I want it banned for exactly the same reasons I want wild animals in circuses banned, the same reason I am glad dog fighting is already banned. It normalises, even glorifies, animal abuse.

That's not entertainment, and it certainly isn't educational. Its just sick.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *But you CAN apply that to a lot of things on tele. these days...I have seen things on kids cartoons that i think are a bit over the top.But like it or not,thats life and we HAVE to work out for ourselves what is right or wrong.Its called common sence,nothing new there imo.*


But you can make a complaint about those and there are panels and systems in place to monitor such things, it is not merely about opinions



> lol the same could be said for David Beckam and the likes.But i for one can't stand football so i don't watch it it.Now all of those people moaning about CM,why can't they just turn over and watch something they DO LIKE?rolleyes:


David Beckam? Any other silly comparison have you got today?  How is Beckam damaging anybody, bad hair cuts? 
It is not about changing channel... It is not about liking or not a program, it is about educating people and causing physical and emotional damage, you might have the common sense to see through what is appropriate to do and what isn't, but majority of people with dogs don't. I have personally come across loads of them, idiots squeezing dog's throats because that is what Cm does. Thing is, you Janice know CM does not do that, but they don't seem to understand what he does. Not that I agree with it in the first place, but that is beside the point. At least he is his own person and should he cause damage in his line of work he can face up to it... The millions of dogs in homes with people using badly and abusing his methods have nobody to watch over them, so I am afraid for as long as he is aired he will be slagged off verbally as it is all people can do. Luckily the argument is being picked up by more respected voices.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Colette said:


> Just my cents about the "its only tv" line....
> 
> There are many programmes I don't like, so I don't watch them. That's fine, I watch tv to be entertained, so if a show doesn't entertain me I switch over.
> 
> ...


To this I can only add :thumbup:
Superbly put!!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> Just thought id give my 2 pennies worth.
> 
> I personally am a fan of ceaser, i think his methids work, he dosnt always use heavy handed methods, he use's treats and other methods too and he adapts his method to the dog he dosnt treat them all the same, we dont see all that happens in a session with him as it is edited.
> 
> ...


I also used to be a Cesar Millan follower, around 3-3 years ago, but soon after working with dogs regularly (rescue dogs) I realised that there was more to dog training and behaviour than what Cesar preaches.

Do yourselves a favour (not necessarily for your dogs, but for your understanding) and research a bit about why Cesar's methods are not liked by everyone and why other, 'positive-reward' based methods are. It didn't take much to convert me.

One last point: the alpha roll is not liked because it is NOT what canines do in the wild, as Cesar claims. The only time this was observed was in a captive wolf pack, which gave rise to the dominance hierarchy theories that Cesar preaches on his shows. There are plenty of studies- take a look. :thumbup:


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *lol the same could be said for David Beckam and the likes.But i for one can't stand football so i don't watch it it.Now all of those people moaning about CM,why can't they just turn over and watch something they DO LIKE?*


I will not change over the channel because I work with dogs on a regular basis and it is in my interests to understand my field of work. Whereas people who follow Cesar Millan seem to disregard other theories without trying them or knowing a lot about them, the people who conform to the positive-reward based training methodologies have an understanding of both sides of the coin (although, there is more than two ways to train a dog, of course).

Thus, keeping up with CM's show helps me maintain a balanced, unbiased argument in terms of knowledge- but obviously biased in terms of preference. I also deal with dogs whose owners are following Cesar Millan and instead of saying "Oh, don't listen to him; he's a fool" and leaving it at that, I can say "Don't be sucked into CM's theories and beliefs because of points a), b), c) etc.," which demonstrates I am not simply a CM hater. Or I am a very well informed one at least.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I will freely admit that I, too was once a fan. I didn't know any better and thought his methods were the accepted way to train dogs.
I was then aware that a lot of people were disgreeing with him and I took the time and trouble to read around the subject of dog behaviour. Like someone else said, it wasn't long untill I realised that his methods were ill conceived and based on discredited hypotheses (they were never theories).

Understanding dog behaviour has come a very long way in a few years (thank god!) and there has been a lot of excellent work done by people who have been working very hard to improve understanding of the domestic dog. These people, however, have not been doing it for personal gain as CM has.

The man is a showman-in the worst possible sense of the word.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Are you really so naive?! Does every good musician, animal behaviourist, football player, rugby player, dancer, love-maker, scientist, author, poet, actor get on TV and/or reach the top of their game? No.
> 
> CM is attractive to NatGeo because he has a charming personality, knows how to preach his methods and, to put it bluntly, is an excellent bullsh***er. This does not mean that his methods are good or work as well as they seem to or are the best for the dog. I could easily get a dog to stop jumping up by jabbing him in the side...easy. But why don't I? Because I want to teach my dog to understand good behaviour, rather than just not do bad behaviours because he is scared of the consequences.


Like someone pointed out before He is there for people who cannot Control/ Train their own Dogs...And some owners have been ready to have their Dog PTS Before C'M saw them......I'm NOT naive I work with Dogs everyday and Sometimes I'm shocked at some owners inability to handle their own Dogs so Yes I do give out advise when I can To try to help them.

I Do understand what you mean in some of your points..You obviously know how to Train/Handle/Treat your Dogs But some people just Can't handle their Own Dogs:scared:.

Maybe you can give me Some Advise for the Future.....Do you Train Dogs? I do get some that are abit iffy to say the least... Oh,I'm a Dog Groomer by the way..Sorry I forgot to say.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

just because someone can't control their dog doesn't miraculously make CMs methods right? What kind of logic is that?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> I will freely admit that I, too was once a fan. I didn't know any better and thought his methods were the accepted way to train dogs.
> I was then aware that a lot of people were disgreeing with him and I took the time and trouble to read around the subject of dog behaviour. Like someone else said, it wasn't long untill I realised that his methods were ill conceived and based on discredited hypotheses (they were never theories).
> 
> Understanding dog behaviour has come a very long way in a few years (thank god!) and there has been a lot of excellent work done by people who have been working very hard to improve understanding of the domestic dog. These people, however, have not been doing it for personal gain as CM has.
> ...


I too, was once a fan. I even said so on an early post when I had just joined this forum (blushing to think of it!) but even then there were things I was expecting him to do that he ignored. In those early days he had a little long haired white dog, who the owner had dyed pink, along with her own hair and everything else in the apartment. I waited till the end expecting him to tell her that he is a dog, not a fashion accessory, but no, it did not happen. When VS visits a house, whether here or in the US, and finds a prong collar, a shock collar or a choke chain, the first thing she says is: that's going in the trash! She does not need such implements to train a dog, and neither should he.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The same logic that says every single dog on CM's show was seconds from euthanasia before he came along . If you can't control your dog and you feel you have to resort to CMs methods rehome your dog to someone who can handle them

I used to be a fan then someone told me to watch it with the sound off so you can't hear all the crap about magical energy and how a shaking petrified dog is just releasing energy and that paw up means he's trying to be dominant. Then I saw VS never seen anyone train like her before. Much better and the dogs are much happier than any on DW


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> Like someone pointed out before He is there for people who cannot Control/ Train their own Dogs...And some owners have been ready to have their Dog PTS Before C'M saw them......I'm NOT naive I work with Dogs everyday and Sometimes I'm shocked at some owners inability to handle their own Dogs so Yes I do give out advise when I can To try to help them.
> 
> I Do understand what you mean in some of your points..You obviously know how to Train/Handle/Treat your Dogs But some people just Can't handle their Own Dogs:scared:.


Sure, I agree. And when a dog is about to be put down, and if CM stops that, fair enough. However, like I've always said, what annoys me the most is the amount of people who are following his methods, despite the the disclaimers.

I did not say you were naive about dogs, either. Only that your comment about why we see no-one else on TV means that no-one's as good as CM was naive.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

I Remember watching Barbara Woodhouse When I was a kid with her SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT The Sit seemed to go on for Ages 

I was being serious about advise btw.....Have 2 Rottweilers Booked in on Sat they are new Dogs owned by the same person....On my worksheet it for one of them it states.....Muzzle??? ( meaning when my Boss took the booking The owner must have said he MAY Need to wear one....Thing is I personnally find muzzles make them worse....I'll just see how he is when I meet him and hopefully he'll enjoy his Bath without the need for one.

I take it you own Rottie's from your username?


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## beary_clairey (Jan 23, 2011)

I used to watch DW too until the day I took my new pups puppy training.

Our trainer used positive re-inforcement in her methods and they worked very well. She used to work with dogs at Battersea dogs home for many years and had also rescued problem dogs herself. She was not a fan of CM's methods.

I think dogs are like people. They have their phobias and weird ideas and all we can do is try and resolve them with positive reinforcement.

I'm scared of spiders - I dont think being chased around or yanked about with a pronged collar would really help solving that phobia but thats just me.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Thats Very True..I hate Spiders too..yes I agree with you there.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

beary_clairey said:


> I used to watch DW too until the day I took my new pups puppy training.
> 
> Our trainer used positive re-inforcement in her methods and they worked very well. She used to work with dogs at Battersea dogs home for many years and had also rescued problem dogs herself. She was not a fan of CM's methods.
> 
> ...


I am terrified of birds. If someone tried to get me over this by dragging me through a room full of the horrible, beady eyed, sharp clawed, flappy things, I would probably have a stroke. If not, I would most definitely end up even more scared of them, if that is possible.

Bloody ridiculous way to carry on.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Most of the dogs I've seen him working with did not have behaviours which would lead them to be PTS.
*The dog who had moved from a farm to the city and was very anxious when taken a walk in the busy city streets.

*The dog who wouldn't walk upstairs (that made me cry :sad: I was willing the dog to bite a ****ing big lump out of him!!)

*The dog who would not go into a school where the owner was a teacher.

In all these cases he "solved" the problem by using brute force. He forced the dogs by pulling them, and choking them into submission when there were much more humane ways of dealing with these (let's be honest-not life threatening!) "problems".
We also never know how long this miracle cure works for and since he is not in the least interested in why the animal may be anxious, he never actually deals with the source of the issue. 

If these animals don't either revert to their old behaviour or develop other problem behaviours I'll eat my wooly hat!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> Most of the dogs I've seen him working with did not have behaviours which would lead them to be PTS.
> *The dog who had moved from a farm to the city and was very anxious when taken a walk in the busy city streets.
> 
> *The dog who wouldn't walk upstairs (that made me cry :sad: I was willing the dog to bite a ****ing big lump out of him!!)
> ...


Most of the behaviours you mention did not really even need sorting out. The farm dog who was scared of the city, yes, but that should have been done with positive association. But the St Bernard who would not go upstairs had more sense than his owners or bloody Caesar Millan. He knew it wasn't good for him. There was absolutely no need whatsoever for that dog to have to climb stairs, it was just the selfishness of the owners.

Why was this teacher so desperate for her dog to go into the school anyway? Did she want to show him off to the children, or what? If he were my dog in that situation, I would have tried positive association or simply left him at home.

I bet if they had been paying him themselves, they would not have bothered.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> I Remember watching Barbara Woodhouse When I was a kid with her SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT The Sit seemed to go on for Ages
> 
> I was being serious about advise btw.....Have 2 Rottweilers Booked in on Sat they are new Dogs owned by the same person....On my worksheet it for one of them it states.....Muzzle??? ( meaning when my Boss took the booking The owner must have said he MAY Need to wear one....Thing is I personnally find muzzles make them worse....I'll just see how he is when I meet him and hopefully he'll enjoy his Bath without the need for one.
> 
> I take it you own Rottie's from your username?


Not personally, but I work with them often and have grown to love them a lot. To me Rotties are often sensitive, wary dogs that are on-guard a lot of the time. Not in an aggressive way, though. However, this is what brings on aggression in these dogs if not brought up correctly- they develop fear-aggression and, due to their size and imposing manner, they are the ones who are misunderstood.

If the guy says wear a muzzle, I wouldn't take any chances with a Rottie. They have the most powerful canine jaws; I wouldn't take the chance. :scared: In your line of work, your obviously being quite hands-on and therefore intrusive to dogs' personal space. Some will like it, others not so much. My advice would be to read up heavily on dog behaviour- calming signals, distance increasing signals and the like- to develop a good understanding of what the dogs you are grooming feel about you touching them. Saying that, I think it is an irresponsible owner that allows a nervous/wary dog to be groomed by an unknown person.


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> The whole alpha role thing i also agree with, he uses it on dominant dogs, just like in a pack an alpha dog would do to another i dont see anything wrong with it.


There is a 'pack' of dogs here and I can honestly say I have never seen any of them alpha role each other nor have I ever felt a need to alpha roll them to show I'm 'dominant'.


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## Terr (Mar 2, 2010)

I'm interested to see how people will react to his methods here in the UK. I know he is unpopular on our forums because of his old school methods. Cesar's approach is considered to be quite PC in the USA though and many over there consider it acceptable to use prong collars etc. as a way of training dogs. I can only imagine the horrified looks you'd get for using one over here. Obviously there are APDT and trainers with more positive attitudes too but the old school methods are certainly much more popular there than they are here.

I absolutely hate his 'alpha' approach to training dogs. I'm a big softy though and treat my dog like a member of my family (because our dogs are, aren't they?) 

I do however agree with the idea that dogs need exercise first and foremost. I find that it's one of the very few things he teaches that I cannot argue with. Dogs who get enough exercise are mentally and physically stimulated, less destructive, calmer and have more focus during training. 

Unfortunately I don't have NGWild so you guys will just have to keep this thread going!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Terr said:


> I'm interested to see how people will react to his methods here in the UK. I know he is unpopular on our forums because of his old school methods. Cesar's approach is considered to be quite PC in the USA though and many over there consider it acceptable to use prong collars etc. as a way of training dogs. I can only imagine the horrified looks you'd get for using one over here. Obviously there are APDT and trainers with more positive attitudes too but the old school methods are certainly much more popular there than they are here.
> 
> I absolutely hate his 'alpha' approach to training dogs. I'm a big softy though and treat my dog like a member of my family (because our dogs are, aren't they?)
> 
> ...


My dogs are family too. In fact, they are not so much trained as brought up like you would a child. But, excepting a few little behaviours I could have done without, they have all been very well behaved, because they love me and wanted to be. I have never yet tried to train an older dog, so I have no experience of that, but I believe that dogs respond better to respect and guidance, just like children do.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

Yes i agree they are part of the family, but they are dogs not people i think thats what some people forget.


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## frodos_electric_guitar (Nov 19, 2010)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> Yes i agree they are part of the family, but they are dogs not people i think thats what some people forget.


Couldn't agree more with this. There are so many people who treat their dogs like babies, and yet they wouldn't use the same methods to raise a child. I see Ceaser's methods as a similar approach to slapping a child's hand away from a plug socket when they're too young to understand reasoning and forever. It's a dog, not a child, personally I would no more reward a dog with treats for constant good behaviour than I would a child with sweets. Also given some of the cases Ceaser deals with, so called "red zone", I'm not sure many bashing his methods would feel confident walking in to some of these cases with a pocket full of treats and a sympathetic smile. No one, including Ceaser is suggesting you use the extreme methods you see in his show on a Yorkshire Terrier who just won't sit when you tell it.

Just use what method works best for you and your dog. Different strokes for different folks, so the song says...


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

A dog is not almost-human, and I know of no greater insult to the canine race than to describe it as such

This quote from john holmes is so true.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

frodos_electric_guitar said:


> Couldn't agree more with this. There are so many people who treat their dogs like babies, and yet they wouldn't use the same methods to raise a child. I see Ceaser's methods as a similar approach to slapping a child's hand away from a plug socket when they're too young to understand reasoning and forever. It's a dog, not a child, personally *I would no more reward a dog with treats for constant good behaviour than I would a child with sweets*. Also given some of the cases Ceaser deals with, so called "red zone", I'm not sure many bashing his methods would feel confident walking in to some of these cases with a pocket full of treats and a sympathetic smile. No one, including Ceaser is suggesting you use the extreme methods you see in his show on a Yorkshire Terrier who just won't sit when you tell it.
> 
> Just use what method works best for you and your dog. Different strokes for different folks, so the song says...


The bit in bold is to highlight that now you are the one treating the dog as you would a child. The reason why you need to repeat rewards with dogs is precisely because they are not humans and only learn through associations and repetitions where a child as it matures will a) understand your language and b) speak his mind to ask questions or argue his case.

Whatever makes you think that using positive methods means walking around with a dopey smile throwing treats like a child flower you are very mistaken indeed. You still need to be firm and assertive, in fact much firmer and much stronger mentally to drag a lunging and growling 6 stone dog away without using leash jerks and strangulations. But I can assure you it is done daily and with no ill effect to either the dog or the handler.


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## frodos_electric_guitar (Nov 19, 2010)

dodigna said:


> The bit in bold is to highlight that now you are the one treating the dog as you would a child. The reason why you need to repeat rewards with dogs is precisely because they are not humans and only learn through associations and repetitions where a child as it matures will a) understand your language and b) speak his mind to ask questions or argue his case.
> 
> Whatever makes you think that using positive methods means walking around with a dopey smile throwing treats like a child flower you are very mistaken indeed. You still need to be firm and assertive, in fact much firmer and much stronger mentally to drag a lunging and growling 6 stone dog away without using leash jerks and strangulations. But I can assure you it is done daily and with no ill effect to either the dog or the handler.


Ah but I wasn't talking about maturing childen, the example I used was a child who doesn't have reasoning or language. "too young to understand reasoning and forever" were my words. Much like an animal. You can't reason with them. The child sticking it's fingers in a plug socket was to represent a danger that you cannot simply talk through with them, because they won't understand. In the case of CM's show the danger is often coming from the dog themselves but the principle is the same. That was my point. Of course I still expect us to disagree but such is life, it's what makes life so facinating, our ability for free-thought.

I'd love to see some examples of this positive reinforcement method used on the types of cases Ceaser looks at. But if it's ok I's like to see for myself rather than be assured. If you have some videos to show that would be fantastic.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

frodos_electric_guitar said:


> Ah but I wasn't talking about maturing childen, the example I used was a child who doesn't have reasoning or language. "too young to understand reasoning and forever" were my words. Much like an animal. You can't reason with them. The child sticking it's fingers in a plug socket was to represent a danger that you cannot simply talk through with them, because they won't understand. In the case of CM's show the danger is often coming from the dog themselves but the principle is the same. That was my point. Of course I still expect us to disagree but such is life, it's what makes life so facinating, our ability for free-thought.


How young a child are you referring to? Young to be crawling to an electric switch obviously, because that makes it small enough to be picked up and watched over at all times, you are not seriously slapping the hand of a toddler... once they can understand you, whats that 10-16 months? You can tell them in a sentence not to do something...



> I'd love to see some examples of this positive reinforcement method used on the types of cases Ceaser looks at. But if it's ok I's like to see for myself rather than be assured. If you have some videos to show that would be fantastic.


Google Angela Stockdale. Her methods work, she is not on TV, but is known world wide, again you are giving the word "positive methods" some Age of Aquarius tone! Positive methods merely means not breaking the dog spirit, teaching the dog to trust you and not fear you. Shooting titbits willynilly does nothing...

Beside I don't believe for a minute the dogs on CM shows are as bad as they say, they are alas "encouraged" to show the worse...


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

frodos_electric_guitar said:


> I'd love to see some examples of this positive reinforcement method used on the types of cases Ceaser looks at. But if it's ok I's like to see for myself rather than be assured. If you have some videos to show that would be fantastic.


Meet Nook...

He was people and dog aggressive as well as been a self harmer. He did this continously when he arrived here.



He couldn't cope with eye contact let alone physical touch at first. He's bitten at least 2 people and would go into full attack mode if a dog so much as looked at him.

This was Nook about 6 months in, using nothing but trust and positive reinforcement to get him to this stage.



Here are some more recent pictures of the lad...

























I personally can't see why anyone would want to use bully boy tactics when positive reinforcement can achieve the same result?

As an aside, Tamba (the none fluffy moot) came with major guarding issues and no bite inhibition. He willingley brings and drops stuff at my feet now and Rain (the fluffy one) was very people aggressive.

I've never poked, prodded, yanked, rolled or 'dominated' any of the dogs (with major problems or other wise) I find respect and kindness goes a lot further to achieving what I would like from them. I want them to work for/with me because they want to and they trust me, not because I've bullied them into submission and they're scared to do otherwise.


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## frodos_electric_guitar (Nov 19, 2010)

dodigna said:


> How young a child are you referring to? Young to be crawling to an electric switch obviously, because that makes it small enough to be picked up and watched over at all times, you are not seriously slapping the hand of a toddler... once they can understand you, whats that 10-16 months? You can tell them in a sentence not to do something...


I seriously am. You can tell them, it doesn't mean they listen. Sometimes a little slap to the hand when reaching for something dangerous is better than taking the time to say no and them do it anyway. But of course now we're getting onto a whole new debate. Something tells me I know where we'd both stand on it and so pointless discussing, also this is a pet forum. 



> Google Angela Stockdale. Her methods work, she is not on TV, but is known world wide, again you are giving the word "positive methods" some Age of Aquarius tone! Positive methods merely means not breaking the dog spirit, teaching the dog to trust you and not fear you. Shooting titbits willynilly does nothing...


We can call it whatever you like, I just didn't know what else to call it. I applied no tone to it as you can't hear me, you're just hearing what you want to.  I'm not belittling these methods at all, I just want to see them working on last-chance cases like CM takes on. He's the one under discussion here afterall. If it can be done I'd love to see it as IMHO it would make an even better show than Ceaser has.



> Beside I don't believe for a minute the dogs on CM shows are as bad as they say, they are alas "encouraged" to show the worse...


Well without any proof of that it can only be opinion. The problem with these threads (I'm already regretting speaking up ) is there is no end to them. CM Supporters and CM detractors will never see eye to eye, instead we're all just going to keep going round and round. Detractors don't like him but it generally amounts to "but the dog looked so scared" rather than any genuine proof that he's abusive, which means there can never be an end as it's all opinions. Nothing wrong with that, I like reading opinions but I don't like it when they are presented as facts. Certainly in the show's I've seen (and I haven't seen them all) he was not abusive. Every case has the "warning, don't attempt this" message over it. It's quite clear. Idiots that do try the extreme stuff are the same sort of idiots who throw themselves off their roof because they saw it on Jackass. I have zero sympathy in both cases. Darwinism at work! More shows like this I say, weed out more of the idiots! 

But when I take a look in threads like this I find discussions about the actual shows quite minimal and it's a shame. So with that in mind I'll stop now and won't continue the cycle.


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## frodos_electric_guitar (Nov 19, 2010)

Snuggles said:


> Meet Nook...
> 
> He was people and dog aggressive as well as been a self harmer. He did this continously when he arrived here.
> 
> ...


Hey Snuggles, thanks for the detailed reply, sorry only spotted it after I posted. Can't look at the video here (as I'm at work shhh ) but will take a look when I get home. Thanks!


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## koki (Feb 3, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> A dog is not almost-human, and I know of no greater insult to the canine race than to describe it as such
> 
> This quote from john holmes is so true.


Dont you dare...
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man. " Mark Twain
...Compare dogs to us...

:thumbup:


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## koki (Feb 3, 2011)

> I'm scared of spiders - I dont think being chased around or yanked about with a pronged collar would really help solving that phobia but thats just me.


A friend of mine went to the psychologist and finally he was asked to face his fears, and he said he couldn't. The Dr. told him that he needed to be pushed or remain forever in his self pity and enlaved to this particular phobia.
What do you think?
The psychologist concocted an opportunity unbeknownst to the patient, and the psychologist told him that he could overcome this big obstacle. He was there all the time coaching him and encouraging him: My friend started to sweat like a pig and really there was no other way but to go through this ordeal. Today he is totaly cured and happy.
:thumbup:

We live in a society in which pain is an absolute no, a cruelty if you wish. Wisdom tell us otherwise, pain is a catalyst in many cases to become better beings.


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## HWAR (Jul 19, 2010)

frodos_electric_guitar said:


> I'm not belittling these methods at all, I just want to see them working on last-chance cases like CM takes on. He's the one under discussion here afterall. If it can be done I'd love to see it as IMHO it would make an even better show than Ceaser has.


I get so sick of reading these statements from CM fans  Dog trainers/behaviourists and mere 'owner's (like me) do it regularly but it's not broadcast on TV so therefore it cant possibly be happening . Nobody else in the world has ever turned around a 'last chance' case because it's not on Nat-Geo 

I have a 'dangerous dog'. He has many many fear based issues which result in negative behaviours and downright dangerous behaviours. He has bitten 3 times, and meant each and every one of them, he gave no warnings, he is unpredictable around people. Pssssting at him, alpha rolling him, yanking him around on a prong collar or kicking him as a 'distraction' would not have 'rehabilitated' him, far from it, just reinforced his fears. In 3 years of patient, positive training we have come a long long way. Visitors are now able to be in the same room as him and he is comfortable and at ease, he is trained to a high level and enjoys working, on the whole he is the perfect dog these days - he will never be 'fixed' though - his issues are far too deep rooted.

Now if you want to ask Nat-Geo to make a documentary on him so that you can see with your own eyes (otherwise it cant possibly be true) then go ahead - I can't see it making great ratings mind you as we have never used quick fixes or deliberately put him into a situation where you know he is going to kick off (like CM does - and if you need proof I will find you a clip from his production team.) and I don't pearly white teeth and do strange doggy mimics to the camera 

Fact is the CM followers can never actually put forward anything other than 'opinions' those that are anti can put forward experience, studies, research and fact - that's got to tell you all you need to know.


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## koki (Feb 3, 2011)

> HWAR;2189952]I get so sick of reading these statements from CM fans  Dog trainers/behaviourists and mere 'owner's (like me) do it regularly but it's not broadcast on TV so therefore it cant possibly be happening . Nobody else in the world has ever turned around a 'last chance' case because it's not on Nat-Geo  [/QUOTE
> 
> Nobody says that, it's just a fact that many dogs that were destined to the needle wer rescued by Millan and were living together withouth major incidents. can you mimic that? Not even with milder dogs is sometimes possible for laymen. This posts are just bashing not discussing the good and the bad point of Millan of whoever it is, not concerned about dog's welfare.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

HWAR said:


> I get so sick of reading these statements from CM fans  Dog trainers/behaviourists and mere 'owner's (like me) do it regularly but it's not broadcast on TV so therefore it cant possibly be happening . Nobody else in the world has ever turned around a 'last chance' case because it's not on Nat-Geo
> 
> I have a 'dangerous dog'. He has many many fear based issues which result in negative behaviours and downright dangerous behaviours. He has bitten 3 times, and meant each and every one of them, he gave no warnings, he is unpredictable around people. Pssssting at him, alpha rolling him, yanking him around on a prong collar or kicking him as a 'distraction' would not have 'rehabilitated' him, far from it, just reinforced his fears. In 3 years of patient, positive training we have come a long long way. Visitors are now able to be in the same room as him and he is comfortable and at ease, he is trained to a high level and enjoys working, on the whole he is the perfect dog these days - he will never be 'fixed' though - his issues are far too deep rooted.
> 
> ...


Sounds as though you have done very well with your dog and with kindness 

great post, thank you for sharing :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Terr said:


> I know [CM/DW] is unpopular on our forums because of his old school methods.
> *Cesar's approach is considered to be quite PC in the USA* though and many over there consider it
> acceptable to use prong collars etc. as a way of training dogs. I can only imagine the horrified looks
> you'd get for using one over here. Obviously there are APDT and trainers with more positive attitudes too
> but the old school methods are certainly much more popular there than they are here.


i don't know just how popular old-school coercion is in the UK - but i do know that thanks to the DawgWrassler, 
physical coercion [push, scruff, poke, bitey-hand, force into position, roll & pin, etc] and intimidation [glare, loom over, 
frontal upright body-parl, abrupt commands 'growled' at the dog, etc] are more popular than in _*decades*_ prior.

add to that the normal everyday addition of *new customers* - novice owners who are teens or 20s 
'kids' on their own - plus adults who are empty-nesters or divorced / widowed and become novice owners - 
and we have a boatload of ignorant people, looking for directions & finding the DawgWrassler, Prattison, 
Bark-Bluster, Sit-Means-S*it, and other like-minded, aversive based training all over the landscape. 
it's depressing.  there *are* large numbers of reward-based trainers & genuine behaviorists, 
but many novices go to several pack-theory or *dumbinance* or adversarial trainers, 
who see the dog as an unruly rebel who must be controlled by the power of the State as played by the owner, 
before they get to the reward-based trainer or the CAAB or the vet-behaviorist, whom they might 
never have needed were it not for the earlier bad advice to shout *'Bah!'*, thrown things, loom-over, 
roll & pin, choke the dog, zap the dog, etcetera.

by the time the owner concludes 'something Must be Done' and find someone using science, not brute force, 
there's been a lot of damage to the dog's trust and much time is wasted repairing it, vs simply teaching a dog 
who knows nothing, how to happily live with humans in a home & in human and dog-society.

in the 1990s i had to hunt for prong-collars; most places stopped carrying them, U bought them on-line;
now they're back in the shops again, drabbit.  attitudes among many *male* novice-owners have regressed 
*past* the level of my childhood in the 1960s, which is truly stunning - these are mostly young military 
or high-school grads or high-school dropouts, and mostly men - but they see dogs as pushy anarchists, 
who have to be "put in their place" or in another common phrase, "taught their place in the pack".



Terr said:


> I absolutely hate his 'alpha' approach to training dogs. I'm a big softy though
> and treat my dog like a member of my family (because our dogs are, aren't they?)


of course, they are! :thumbup: i am not 'a big softy', as i expect my dogs or my clients' dogs to be polite, 
be friendly to friendly strangers or at least civil, be tolerant of other dogs & play with some other dogs, 
and generally be biddable & well-mannered, at home & abroad. But! - i get the manners & willing compliance 
*without* Cesar's _carry a big stick_ attitude, even with powerful dogs who need help with aggro. 
it's just not needed; it's purely superfluous - i own the food, i control access to all the wonderful things 
as a human - the dog can only open the Treasure Chest by doing what i want, and i teach the dog 
what i want - easy-peasy. 


Terr said:


> I do however agree... that dogs need exercise first and foremost.
> I find that it's one of the very few things he teaches that I cannot argue with. Dogs who get enough exercise
> are mentally and physically stimulated, less destructive, calmer and have more focus during training.


99% of the time, if he says something i wholeheartedly support,  it's because it's been around so long, 
it was bald-headed and long-bearded when i was 10-YO, and first trained a pup with my mentor - this is one 
of those old, absolutely-true cliches - how many times have trainers said, _"a tired dog is a good dog..."_ ??
how many trainers and vets have said _dogs need exercise regularly, including aerobic - not just 'walks'._ 
i chew-out clients who use _*i've got a big yard...*_ as an excuse not to take the dog for leashed walks 
AND to the beach, a dog-park, play fetch & tug, swim, bike-jog... SomeThing, AnyThing active!

it's when he says something wholly original that i roll my eyes & sigh  like _"dominant to light",_ ye gods!  
that was a stunner - i couldn't believe he said it.

on a good note - 
more APOs are taking their dogs on vacation, take them to visit family, join agility classes, learn freestyle, 
take Nosework, *get B-mod when they need it vs give the dog up,* and so forth. 
so there are bright spots - the DawgWrassler & Sit-Means-S*it are downers, but they aren't the whole story.


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## HWAR (Jul 19, 2010)

koki said:


> Nobody says that, it's just a fact that many dogs that were destined to the needle wer rescued by Millan and were living together withouth major incidents. can you mimic that? Not even with milder dogs is sometimes possible for laymen. This posts are just bashing not discussing the good and the bad point of Millan of whoever it is, not concerned about dog's welfare.


Many dogs up and down the country are destined for the needle and rescues take them in, put them into experienced foster homes and turn them around well enough to rehome them to good families :confused1:

Dog's welfare is my highest priority hence the reason I have a very strong dislike for CM's methods. For the dozen or so he has 'rehabilitated' there are thousands more who have been condemned to death because their owners seem to think everything the man say's and does is gospel and then try and replicate it resulting in some serious bites/attacks (any GOOD behaviourist will quantify this!).

The bloke isn't interested in dog welfare just his career


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

HWAR said:


> Dog's welfare is my highest priority hence the reason I have a very strong dislike for CM's methods. For the dozen or so he has 'rehabilitated' there are thousands more who have been condemned to death because their owners seem to think everything the man say's and does is gospel and then try and replicate it resulting in some serious bites/attacks (any GOOD behaviourist will quantify this!).
> 
> The bloke isn't interested in dog welfare just his career


This brings to mind my friends husband and his dog. They adopted a large breed dog, unwanted by a colleague. Dog was fine initially but developed
some "dominance issues." Having watched CM, they tried to do the roll thing, pushing down, not sure what you call it. The dog once released jumped up and bit him on the face 

I agree it was a silly thing to do, but he saw Caesar do it and despite "disclaimers" on screen gave it a go.

Unusually, this has a happy ending, dog was not pts, but they sought good sound advice via vet recommendation and 2 years later dog is still in that home. A happy and well adjusted dog by all accounts.

The owners made a stupid mistake and recognised they had, they took responsibility rather than blaming the poor dog. Few owners alas would have done this ...

So I KNOW this tv program encourages otherwise intelligent people to do stupid things to their dogs ... with serious results


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

koki said:


> A friend of mine went to the psychologist and finally he was asked to face his fears, and he said he couldn't. The Dr. told him that he needed to be pushed or remain forever in his self pity and enlaved to this particular phobia.
> What do you think?
> The psychologist concocted an opportunity unbeknownst to the patient, and the psychologist told him that he could overcome this big obstacle. He was there all the time coaching him and encouraging him: My friend started to sweat like a pig and really there was no other way but to go through this ordeal. Today he is totaly cured and happy.
> :thumbup:
> ...


Here we go again. Dogs are not people, they do not have the reasoning powers of people. If people visit a psychologist to cure a phobia, they want that phobia cured, they know it is irrational, they are prepared for what is in store. They may be terrified, they may sweat and shudder, but their brain will tell them it is the only way to cure their phobia and that is what they are paying for.

A dog does not have this advantage. He does not know his fear is irrational; he does not want to cure his phobia, he wants to avoid it; he has not chosen to have his fear cured, he is being forced to confront it for the benefit of some human. It is terrifying to him; he does not know that it is going to end at some point and he will come out of it even more afraid than he was to start with.

You cannot compare what a human being will do, out of choice, to what a dog suffers through no fault of his own. THAT is irrational.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

koki said:


> > HWAR;2189952]I get so sick of reading these statements from CM fans  Dog trainers/behaviourists and mere 'owner's (like me) do it regularly but it's not broadcast on TV so therefore it cant possibly be happening . Nobody else in the world has ever turned around a 'last chance' case because it's not on Nat-Geo  [/QUOTE
> >
> > Nobody says that, it's just a fact that many dogs that were destined to the needle wer rescued by Millan and were living together withouth major incidents. can you mimic that? Not even with milder dogs is sometimes possible for laymen. This posts are just bashing not discussing the good and the bad point of Millan of whoever it is, not concerned about dog's welfare.
> 
> ...


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

It would perhaps make "interesting" reading to hear about CM's failures, or doesn't he have any ....


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

No matter what the arguments about CM and his dubious methods, it all comes down to one solid fact as far as I am concerned: I love my dogs, I adore my dogs, and I would never, ever treat them that way. I would rather put up with and manage any adverse behaviours than subject them to DW's sort of treatment.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> No matter what the arguments about CM and his dubious methods, it all comes down to one solid fact as far as I am concerned: I love my dogs, I adore my dogs, and I would never, ever treat them that way. I would rather put up with and manage any adverse behaviours than subject them to DW's sort of treatment.


I agree and personally I wonder what happens to these dog he has "cured" of their issues on screen. I have a feeling while "resolving" one issue, he may cause others ... Just a feeling.

Follow up would be perhaps make "interesting" viewing?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

HWAR said:


> I get so sick of reading these statements from CM fans
> Dog trainers / behaviourists and mere 'owners' (like me) do it regularly but it's not broadcast on TV
> so therefore it cant possibly be happening . Nobody else in the world has ever turned around
> a 'last chance' case because it's not on Nat-Geo


yes - that it is not documented on international-TV does not mean it isn't done, every day, around the world.


koki said:


> Nobody says that, it's just a fact that *many dogs that were destined [for] the needle
> were rescued by Millan* and were living together without major incidents.


this was pointed out many times: Cesar did not *rescue* the dogs at his DogPsych Center, which is gone; 
they were *being boarded - * a few were client's dogs but the huge majority were *simply boarders.* 
those that could get along, stayed in a larger group; some were in small groups, others alone - 
but the non-client boarded dogs *were owned by* rescues and private shelters, 
*who paid Mr Millan* $15 per day, per dog, to house, feed & care for the dogs. 
multiply $15 per day, times 60 dogs, times 7 - that's weekly; times 4.3 is monthly gross earnings. 
that buys a lotta kibble - and helps to pay staff, lights, water, rent, etc.

all of those boarded dogs were evicted when Cesar shut-down the DogPsych Center to go shopping for land 
outside the grungy post-industrial warehouse district of South L-A; he was not being paid to *'rehab'* those dogs, 
they were not 'better' behaviorally than they were on arrival; they were fed, kept healthy & safe, and exercised. 
in his first book he describes the routine; the dogs got *seven hours out of every 24 of aerobic exercise,* 
each day - and he had staff to help with this, since no one person could possibly take 60-odd dogs out 
for a total of 7 hours of cardiovascular exercise, 7 days a week.


koki said:


> can you mimic that?


A - Why? 
B - loads of dogs meet every day in loose groups, all over the USA & UK - in parks, on beaches, at dog-parks - 
and they don't fight, bite, or kill each other; they play or meet & greet just fine, more than 90% of the time. 
why is it so remarkable that they get along in a pen? *with no food, bones, or bitches in heat to argue over?* 
that's actually what anyone would expect - and it's to the dogs' credit, not Cesar's, altho all that heavy exercise 
is also a contributing factor, i'm sure.  they were too doggone tired to waste energy in fights!

how many hours of aerobic exercise does Ur dog get, each day? [not 7, i'll bet.]


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## HWAR (Jul 19, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Follow up would be perhaps make "interesting" viewing?


I don't think it would sadly as there wouldn't be a cat in hells chance they would revisit anyone who had had a negative experience following CM's 'work'.

Like I said earlier - the fact that the only argument CM followers can offer is 'opinion' compared to the facts, research, studies, science and vast experience of those anti CM speaks volumes and leaves no arguement.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

HWAR said:


> I don't think it would sadly as there wouldn't be a cat in hells chance they would revisit anyone who had had a negative experience following CM's 'work'.
> 
> Like I said earlier - the fact that the only argument CM followers can offer is 'opinion' compared to the facts, research, studies, science and vast experience of those anti CM speaks volumes and leaves no arguement.


 I meant interesting as in "revealing" so agree with you entirely


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

HWAR said:


> Now if you want to ask Nat-Geo to make a documentary on him so that you can see with your own eyes (otherwise it cant possibly be true) then go ahead - I can't see it making great ratings mind you as we have never used quick fixes or deliberately put him into a situation where you know he is going to kick off (like CM does - and if you need proof I will find you a clip from his production team.) and I don't pearly white teeth and do strange doggy mimics to the camera


I've been pondering what you have written above this afternoon. Our most recent foster has a bite history and the last bite was a pretty serious one. He's also got a history of serious dog aggression and under behaviourists advice was pretty much permenantly muzzled in his old home. The sole cause of all his problems was the owners heavy handedness with him. He's learnt to fear people and other dogs and tries to get in there first before they can hurt him.

As I was travelling back with him in the car, I kept glancing in the mirror and spotting his big goofy face smiling back at me. I thought about doing a video diary to track his progress but like you've said, it wouldn't make very interesting viewing.

He's not had an aggressive outburst since he's been here and to look at him, nothing has spectacularly changed with his outward apearance or body language. What has happened though is he's placed his trust in me. Nothing spectacular to the outside world but subtle things like soft eye contact, a head on my knee, a biscuit not snatched and a lean against my legs for a tickle behind his ears.

As I said, nothing spectacular to most but for me I know the journey has started.  Now I've got that trust, I know I can start putting him back together at his own pace. There will be no gizmos or gadgets used, just positive experiences and associations from now on. If I push him out of his comfort zone too quickly and he does have an outburst, the only slapping been done will be my own wrists.

I know when we get to the 'after' and he's up close and personal with other dogs and people I will get excited and probably take plenty of photos. I also know a lot of people will view them and probably think '2 dogs togeher, so what'. :lol: I'm sure they would be much more impressive if I put them next to photos or videos of a snarling growling beasty but I'm not about to break that trust and push him to that point.

All in all, pretty rubbish telly. :lol: The only reason I've got before video of Nook is because people were making descisions on whether or not he could live and wanted to see how bad he actually was.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

Frodos Electric Guitar- I'm just posting to address your comment. Many people have different ways of raising pets, as many people have different ways of raising kids.
Personally, as a mother, I would not *smack* my daughters hand away from a plug. I would tell her no. If she continued to try and put her finger in the plug I would put a cover over it. I would control the situation, rationally, as any responsible parent would do. As a child, she doesn't *understand* the dangers of the plug, or consequences of putting her finger in said plug, so as a *responsible* parent, I manage the situation, without smacking her. She won't understand the smacking, won't associate with the plug, it will simply make her scared of me. 
Same principles can be applied to a dog. If you smack it, it won't understand _why_ you're smacking it, it will start to fear you. You can handle a dog's behaviour by preventing the misbehaviour or managing it with positive training. 
I think my daughter would grow up very miserable if she spent all her months as a baby, not being able to understand english, being *battered* for stepping out of line. Maybe I should put my daughter on a choke chain so she doesn't run away from me in the shop?

Sorry guys if this post is a bit off topic, but That post made me quite mad.

Also if you want some examples of positive training methods, you should buy reaching the animal mind by karen pryor. If you can read that book and still use harsh training methods, you shouldn't own any animal, never mind a dog.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Liquidsunshine said:


> I have never heard of this lady, will look her up, sound as though her book is worth reading, thank you


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Liquidsunshine said:


> Frodos Electric Guitar- I'm just posting to address your comment. Many people have different ways of raising pets, as many people have different ways of raising kids.
> Personally, as a mother, I would not *smack* my daughters hand away from a plug. I would tell her no. If she continued to try and put her finger in the plug I would put a cover over it. I would control the situation, rationally, as any responsible parent would do. As a child, she doesn't *understand* the dangers of the plug, or consequences of putting her finger in said plug, so as a *responsible* parent, I manage the situation, without smacking her. She won't understand the smacking, won't associate with the plug, it will simply make her scared of me.
> Same principles can be applied to a dog. If you smack it, it won't understand _why_ you're smacking it, it will start to fear you. You can handle a dog's behaviour by preventing the misbehaviour or managing it with positive training.
> I think my daughter would grow up very miserable if she spent all her months as a baby, not being able to understand english, being *battered* for stepping out of line. Maybe I should put my daughter on a choke chain so she doesn't run away from me in the shop?
> ...


Oh, I do so agree with you. When my son was little and even up to about five, as he did not speak until then and did not understand what people said to him till a year or so later, he would plug anything with a point into anything with a hole! We had carpet tape stuck over every single low socket because, being older, he could easily remove the covers. Anything that needed to be plugged in had to be plugged into the high sockets, except the tv which was in front of the plug so he couldn't get to it.

Can you imagine continually smacking a child like that? Ridiculous and quite pointless; all you would achieve is high blood pressure.


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## HWAR (Jul 19, 2010)

Snuggles said:


> If I push him out of his comfort zone too quickly and he does have an outburst, the only slapping been done will be my own wrists.
> .


This, IMO, is the key point. Those of us that *do* actually care about the welfare of our dogs would never ever (knowingly) push to dog to the point where those negative behaviours are practiced (and reinforced). The 3 times my boy attacked were entirely my fault. I didn't read the situation and his body language properly or I got complacent with his progress. In unexperienced hands the dog would have been blamed and PTS would have been likely because of his breed and the damage he did (thankfully the 3 people who he has bitten have been family/friends).

CM on the other hand deliberately sets the dogs up to fail so that he can punish that behaviour 

I think this clip clarifies the above without doubt YouTube - DW Provoking the Dog


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I have never heard of this lady, will look her up, sound as though her book is worth reading, thank you


All her books are worth reading. She invented clicker training, so I am told, and I have just bought Don't shoot the Dog which has a big section on it.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

It's absolutely brilliant, I bought it after seeing it recommended so many times on here, and it literally blew me away. The amount of times I turned to my other half and said "listen to this, this is AMAZING", I think he was fantasising about burning it! Great background on clicker training, truly excellent.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Can you imagine continually smacking a child like that? Ridiculous and quite pointless; all you would achieve is high blood pressure.


Newfiesmum, tbh I have seen so many parents who raise the hands to kids (not actually slapping, just threatening) and seeing them flinch away, it's something I would never want my daughter to do. And the same thing happens with dogs who are familiar with getting a slap, so why would I accept that behaviour in my dog when it would break my heart to see it from my daughter.

And like you said, if you're constantly punishing, no one is happy.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Wow - so many pages to catch up, I will try to remember everything I wanted to say... sorry if I forget the specifics of who said what!

1) Someone said about wanting to see positive reinforcement methods being used to treat dogs like CMs "red zone" cases.

Easy - talk to anyone who works in a rescue organisation that uses R+ rather than dominance. Or look at every single trainer with the APDT, and every behaviourist with the APBC or COAPE. There are hundreds. All of these people work day in, day out with dogs - the behaviourists specifically with dogs with problems, often agression. Yet these three groups work without all the dominance / pack theory stuff, and forbid the use of aids like chokes, prongs, shocks, etc. If you want more info, they all have very detailed websites well worth looking at.

I do agree it would be nice to see them - I honestly wish they would make a programme following trainers with the APDT, or behaviourists with either APBC or COAPE. Those would be shows well worth watching.

2) Comparing dogs to children.

This can be a complicated issue to address, as there are two aprts to it imo.

On the one hand - dogs are not small furry humans. They are dogs. Their natural behaviours, body language, brain power, needs and drives are very different to our own. I fully agree that dogs should be loved for what they are - dogs - and treated as such.

However, there is one over-riding reason why the positive reinforcement / negative punishment techniques work so well - because they apply to every species capable of learning.

Of course the exact methodology varies but the principles can - and have been - successfully applied to a plethora of species - from goldfish and chickens, through domestic dogs, cats, horses and rabbits, through wild animals in zoos and labs including monkeys, big cats, elephants, etc, to the "higher" species like the marine mammals and great apes, and indeed to human beings.

So yes, in this respect you can treat a dog like a child. Or a chicken. Or a dolphin. Because they are all capable of learning very quickly by this process, without risk of harm to either trainer or trainee. As long as the trainer remembers to adapt the methodology to the individual (working with drives rather than against them, using species-appropriate rewards, etc) the base principles can be successfully applied.

2) One poster raised the issue of "flooding" being used in human psychology to treat phobias.

This is indeed true - and it can work on humans - but this is one of those areas where it is vital to remember that humans and dogs are not the same!

When the technique is used on humans, the person is for one thing able to understand that their phobia is irrational, and are prepared to do whatever may be necessary to treat it.
Flooding is not merely the physical act of forcing the individual to confront their fears - it involves complex psychological work (a form of counselling) where the patient will discuss their feelings and emotions, in order to understand and then overcome them.

That is where the technique is flawed for use on animals - you can only carry out half of the process. You can not explain to the animal beforehand that his fears are unfounded, or that what you are doing is necessary or will benefit him. The animal can not engage in a dialogue about their experience, or benefit from the counselling side of it.

Without that important side of the technique, all you are left with is forcing an animal into a situation it finds terrifying but has no way of escaping. And ofc course, let us not forget that should the technique not work - the animal will get WORSE rather than better / stay the same.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

frodos_electric_guitar said:


> I'd love to see some examples of this positive reinforcement method
> used on the types of cases Ceaser looks at. But if it's ok, I'd like to see for myself rather than be assured.
> If you have some videos to show that would be fantastic.


here is some behavioral explanation - 
Notes from Clicker Expo Part 2 (The Four Quadrants revisited) « Boogie's blog 
A, B, C is a common mnemonic in dog-training or any behavioral analysis - Antecedent, Behavior, Consequence. 
the animal wants a good consequence - if we grab a hot pan and burn our hands, we learn a painful lesson, 
and in future use a hot-pad. *manipulating consequences alters behavior.* 
we make the actions we want from the dog, *rewarding*; we eliminate rewarding consequences 
for un-wanted actions, *or* something the dog *wants* can be taken away: 
the game stops when the dog playing tug grabs our arm, not the tug. 
the dog who begins to bully or harass another dog at the park, is leashed for a minute, as a time-out - 
then released *with the leash dragging* in case they should do that again.

this sort of punishment - *take away desired things -* avoids inflicting physical punishment, which has fallout.

videos: 
a good example of simple counter-conditioning: _small dog fears strangers, 
toss treats away from stranger to give dog distance, let DOG approach stranger as dog relaxes - 
stranger does not attempt to approach ==> dog._ 
YouTube - Bandit Bites | drsophiayin.com

contrast Cesar's handling [confrontational] with Dr Yin's - 
YouTube - Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog

a Univ of Calif vet-behaviorist on the use of punishing tools or punishment 
YouTube - Most dog bad behavior based in fear

Dr Yin working with a stallion who dislikes grooming & *hates* to be fly-sprayed -
YouTube - Stallion Training | drsophiayin.com 
notice he is FREE to go where he wants, no cross-ties, AND there is a mare in estrus one paddock over, 
with a narrow alley between; she flirts with him, but he comes back to train *on his own[/n], free choice.

a stranger-aggro dog at home, counter-conditioning with Dr Yin 
YouTube - Dog Aggression to People | drsophiayin.com 
IMO the owner lets Bambi get way too-close on that first visit, she has a bite-history, 
and she freaks out every time Sophia moves - even to reach for the bait-bag. 
but she does rapidly improve, despite being over threshold. :thumbsup:

dog is aggro/reactive to strange dogs [Yin] 
YouTube - Mollie's Bad with Other Dogs | drsophiayin.com

excerpt from lecture on dog to dog aggro by Jean Donaldson: 
YouTube - A Quick and Dirty Guide to Dog-Dog Aggression 
see the whole thing FREE by signing up at A Quick and Dirty Guide to Dog-Dog Aggression - APDT 2002 - Association of Pet Dog Trainers :: PROLibraries.com - Online Professional Education - Online Conferences - Professional Lectures - Conference Education 
this is her lecture on the results of her work with aggro dogs between 1993 & 1999 [6 years] 
and her collation of prognosis factors & likely outcomes. IOW - she did a 6-year study to collect data.*


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Have just seen an ad for the new series of Dog Whisperer which is based in the UK, starting next Tuesday on NatGeo. Will be interesting to see how the mighty toothed one gets on with UK dog owners and more importantly, if he has changed his tactics compared to the endless repeats of his old shows.


Not read through all the posts, sorry 

Personally I'm gutted that we've let him into the country

Em
xx


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## Statler (Jan 3, 2011)

oh i so love threads like this...............................:scared::scared:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Statler said:


> oh i so love threads like this............................... :scared:


did U read any of it?  or just hit the end to comment?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I love threads like this and I am not being sarcastic. I love a good Caesar debate. Should I drag up all the old threads with his name in them, just to get a reaction, or do you think they have all been closed?:frown:


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> It would perhaps make "interesting" reading to hear about CM's failures, or doesn't he have any ....


confidentiality agreement springs to mind....


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

You mean like american eskimo that had it's teeth filed down to stop it biting and hurting people after Cesar "rehabilitated" it and then suggested a permanent muzzle when that worked. Or maybe the jindo that was rehomed soon after or the other dogs if you read the episode guide that were either rehomed because the owner couldn't cope or the owner learned to live with whatever they had called Cesar in to fix


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Oh God!! I've just looked at the youtube clip where one of CMs crew boasts about antagonising the dogs before the shoot.

This stupid ba888rd seems to be proud of the fact that he can goad them into aggression!!

Stupid w88ker!!

I've really upset now :sad:


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## Terr (Mar 2, 2010)

Snuggles said:


> Meet Nook...
> 
> He was people and dog aggressive as well as been a self harmer. He did this continously when he arrived here.
> 
> ...


Wow! That's magic! Wonderful to see him so well socialised and adjusted. We don't see enough of these types of situations. :thumbup:

As for those are bashing our 'Cesar bashing'. Well... I think most of us are perceptive and educated enough to admit that not everything Cesar does warrants negative remarks but his overall approach is rather negative.

Those who believe everything they see on TV are the ones who need a wake up call.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> You mean like american eskimo that had it's teeth filed down to stop it biting and hurting people after Cesar "rehabilitated" it and then suggested a permanent muzzle when that worked. Or maybe the jindo that was rehomed soon after or the other dogs if you read the episode guide that were either rehomed because the owner couldn't cope or the owner learned to live with whatever they had called Cesar in to fix


In other words you have two choices: either he does nothing to improve the situation at all long term, or he makes the dog a darned sight worse. Just what I have always suspected.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm sure he does fix some that cocker from the other night for example a lot better than the last dog he trained to not be scared of the car he didn't crag this one in by a prong collar. But when you see ones like the little chinese crested mix he was helping the mexican rescue with by throwing it in with his pack and letting them push her around, she was put down because of kidney failure a couple of months later, it really looks awful


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## frodos_electric_guitar (Nov 19, 2010)

Snuggles said:


> Meet Nook...
> 
> He was people and dog aggressive as well as been a self harmer. He did this continously when he arrived here.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry I got in last night and ended up working late so only just remembered to take a look at these! Nice work with the dog.

I'll still say I'm not in love with the idea of feeding a dog treats to get it to do what I ask, just a personal feeling though. It feels slightly like bargaining to me. But like it's been said before in these kind of threads, we should all just take bits that work for us rather than a whole method.

I think it's interesting that Ceaser's haters seem to hold him in a more God-like regard than people who watch and enjoy the show. At best I've been maybe 10-15 of his shows. On all the ones I've seen he did a good job and helped the people who asked. I have no doubt in his career he has had failures, the difference is, I realise he's human and that happens. It happens to all of us in our jobs from time to time. The only problem is when you work with animals, children or vulnerable people in general, those mistakes feel like the end of the world. I don't however think he should be crucified for that.

What I don't quite buy is that he's a renegade running about having dogs rehomed and put to sleep willynilly and National Geo are chasing after him covering all his tracks. It just doesn't sound logical. He'd be too much of a liability and one day something would happen in front of people they couldn't hide. It just doesn't made sound business sense to me. What I do buy is that Ceaser has made mistakes and in some cases not managed to help at all. Presuming he's not actually the AntiChrist he probably doesn't feel great about those.

I don't know, I just feel like people are losing sight of him being a human being. But hey I guess most people on here prefer dogs to people anyway, right?


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

I think the show tries to portray him as the "God" of the canine world; it would be a lot more credible if some of the failures where reported instead.

Whatever method you use it is not guaranteed it will work 100% of the time, but this is what the DW production would have you believe. 

This thread is about the show, the show is what people have a problem with. I don't think anybody cares about CM as a person really. It is about how the show influences people into believing it takes 8 minutes to turn around a dog. Obviously to do that you need to have a sufficiently charismatic character to pull it off. In his live shows, there are no editing tables, but he still captivates the audience with his rather charming personality. He is very entertaining.

What makes him even less credible is how the production company threatens with legal action all the ones who try to challenge him publicly... 
It's never about the dogs, it's all about the merchandise machine keeping its wheels well oiled. 

If you think punishment works better then reward then it is a personal choice, I know which one I see working better. Rewards don't necessarily need to be food based as some dogs aren't motivated that way. But to make a dog, or in actual fact any other animal including us humans, to work for something which brings a gratification makes it a hell of a lot easier in cooperation terms from the animal.


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## HWAR (Jul 19, 2010)

frodos_electric_guitar said:


> I'll still say I'm not in love with the idea of feeding a dog treats to get it to do what I ask, just a personal feeling though. It feels slightly like bargaining to me. But like it's been said before in these kind of threads, we should all just take bits that work for us rather than a whole method.


PRT doesn't mean chucking treats at a dog. It means training them to do WHAT you want rather then DONT want them to do. It means doing so by building positive associations, rewarding the correct behaviours (whether that is a food reward, a toy reward or even the reward of affection) and when unwanted behaviours occur swapping that behaviour for something you do want. The ethos is simple, set your dog up for success.

Example: My current rescue is massively overweight and 90% blind. She has been with me for 4/5 months. She is almost 8 years old. She has had no training whatsoever in her life. I can't start training with treats as she is on a strict diet but she loves an excited face rub or a football - she offers me the correct behaviour she gets her cue word and her reward. Using these two rewards I have got her to a level where she could quite easily pass her GC Silver in a relatively short space of time.

The 'haters' do not 'hate' the human being that is CM, just what he stands for in dog training and his ethos on how dogs should be treated and rightly so too as his methods are at best unfounded and at worst dangerous.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Frodo:



> I'll still say I'm not in love with the idea of feeding a dog treats to get it to do what I ask, just a personal feeling though. It feels slightly like bargaining to me.


I am curious - is it specifically using food treats that you dislike, or all tangible rewards?

It isn't about bargaining - it is basic behaviour, common to every species capable of learning. 
Behaviours that elicit a rewarding consequence get repeated. Behaviours that do not elicit a rewarding consequence do not get repeated and eventually are extinguished. 
Notice the whole process revloves around rewards and lack of them - no punishment involved. ALL species learn this way (some by other methods too of course).

Equally - would you continue to work if your employer stopped paying you? I certainly wouldn't! Would you continue to put money into an empty vending machine, if it never once gave you your can of coke? No.
This is what we are talking about - its not about bargaining or bribery - its about making good behaviour rewarding, bad behaviour not rewarding.

If your objection is specifically to food treats - it should be remembered that not all dogs (or other species) are motivated by the same things. There are many ways to reward a dog, treats is just one of them, and is often the easiest and most convenient (especially when teaching new cued behaviours, as they can be given frequently and do not last too long!)

Some people seem to think that dogs should work for us out of some sense of love or duty. Why is that? They are dogs. Animals. Not charity workers! They don't have the concepts of "because I say so" nor do most of them that inherent "desire to please" that will ensure they always do exactly what they want.



> I think it's interesting that Ceaser's haters seem to hold him in a more God-like regard than people who watch and enjoy the show.


On the contrary - in my experience, many of his fans tend to feel its CMs way or the highway! There are a great many training methods and tools out there - many of which most of us have no problem with. But many CM fans believe that all those others are ineffective / bribery / mollycoddling etc. They frequently suggest that CMs methods not just work but are vital - which is clearly not the case.

I would also like to say that CM is not the only old school yank and stomp trainer around - there are many. I happen to disagree with all of them. The difference is that CM is the one with the fame and fortune. He is the one beaming his outdated theories and dangerous and cruel methods into the public eye. He is the one primarily responsible for the recent surge in yank and stomp training, after decades of improvement. He's not the anti-christ (don't remember ever claiming he was) but he IS the one having the most far reaching and serious consequences simply by being the most famous.



> I have no doubt in his career he has had failures, the difference is, I realise he's human and that happens. It happens to all of us in our jobs from time to time. The only problem is when you work with animals, children or vulnerable people in general, those mistakes feel like the end of the world. I don't however think he should be crucified for that.


Of course we are all human and we all make mistakes - but most people try to learn from them!

I don't imagine there is a single trainer / behaviourist or even dog owner in the world who has not made a mistake - but most of them will have looked at the situation and tried to assess why the mistake occured, what they did wrong, and what they should do differently next time to prevent a recurrence.

Indeed many great trainers and behaviourists (inc the famous Victoria Stillwell and our resident Leashed for Life) started out when yank and stomp was the norm. VS was one of many who used to preach dominance, albeit without the violence CM uses. But these people engaged in what could be termed "continuing professional development". They continued to learn, to study, to keep up to date with the science and the evidence and new ideas about best practice.

CM shows no signs of this sort of behaviour. Rather than admit his mistakes he simply covers them up. He has not once considered that they even were mistakes that he could learn from, and has continued to use the same dangerous methods, based on the same discredited theories, in spite of his failures.
He hasn't continued to study or evolve - lets be honest he never started to learn about dogs in the first place. I believe at one stage at least he was claiming it was "knowledge he was born with"! He has not bothered to seek any education into animal behaviour or welfare. Not shown any interest in learning different techniques. He hasn't moved on at all.



> I don't know, I just feel like people are losing sight of him being a human being.


Yes, he is a human being and he has as much right as the rest of us to fail on occassion, to make mistakes, to get it wrong. 
But as a human being - and indeed a well connected, rich and famous human being - he has access to the same studies, the same techniques, the same courses, the same books and papers and websites etc as everyone else.

Ignorance is no excuse for him - he has been told repeatedly that his theories are outdated yet he chooses to ignore the evidence of this. He has been warned his methods are cruel - yet he chooses to ignore the dogs that shake and pi$$ themselves when he approaches and instead lies about their behaviour claiming they are calm-submissive.

He is (imo) too arrogant to admit he may sometimes be wrong, too damn certain of "his" way to try anyone elses, and to obstinate to even contemplate any change.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

It's a money thing now. Nothing to do with anything except making money (and there are other trainers who are clearly in it for the money over anything else BTW, where is the Jan Fennel thread?)


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Right, took Ray to the park today and a guy walked past with his gorgeous I would place 14-15 weeks old bull terrierx pup on leash (she always only ever is on leash). Ray being Ray he grants no puppy licence to nobody and expect all pups to be born with impeccable manners  So he is also always on lead in this particular park, anyhow, as the little girl passes she is keen to say hello to which Ray grumbles immediately... What does the owner do, he jerks her leash side way, mhmm now where could he have learnt to do that? 

I say to him, don't worry she is already been told, in fact the pup had already learnt lesson 1 from Ray, must remember not to be so keen... But hey, as soon as she turns to look the guy jerks her leash again, this time harder  
Two steps and she tries to turn to look at us again, yet again the idiot jerks her leash, this time so hard that all 4 paws are off the ground! With this he also shouts at her. in frustration.. Now, what are the chances she is going to grow into a nice friendly large bull terrier? Very slim... She sees dog, she gets sent flying.

I believe even Cesar himself would be horrified at such behaviour from one of his fan, alas he is not there to explain how to do the jerks... It works on the telly, just persist and she will be calm submissive in the end!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

frodos_electric_guitar said:


> ...I'm not in love with the idea of feeding a dog treats to get [her / him] to do what I ask,
> just a personal feeling though. It feels slightly like bargaining...


hey, F-E-G! :--)
what's wrong with negotiating?  dogs do it all the time! the concept of dogs fighting over everything 
is ridiculous, if it were true that all dogs strive & struggle for every mouthful of food or tug-toy, they'd all 
be sporting bandages 80% of the time from over-zealous arguments over a tennis-ball or kibble. 
dogs are actually reluctant to begin hostilities, they have all those signals to *prevent* aggro & conflict.

dogs who are training for SAR / *Search & Rescue* are often rewarded with a game of tug with the bringsel, 
which is great fun, always available, and has been built into the world's greatest toy by the handler. 
drug-detection k9s are often rewarded by a tug-toy kept in the handler's pocket, & again it's the Best Thing Ever!

retrievers or ball-mad dogs often adore a game of fetch - STOP while they are still excited, leave em wanting more. 
short, thrilling, fast-paced & happy games - not draggy, not asking for a long stay, but exciting & _moving._

*functional rewards* are built into everyday training & life: they are what the dog wants: 
the door opened to the yard, to exit the car, to enter the car, their meal, to exit the crate, their chew-toy...

combining NILIF - Nothing In Life Is Free - & -*Sit*- for any *functional reward* teaches the dog self-control, 
rewards polite behavior, *and gives the dog a Pretty Please? signal,* to communicate with people. 
i like 2-way communication; when the dog can *ask,* 'Please may i have this bone?"... at the pet-supply, 
by sitting precisely with eyes on Ur eyes beside their hoped-for prize, U have a terrific tool *for the dog* 
to express their wants and their needs: i gotta toilet, i want to play, May i meet that dog?, etc. 


frodos_electric_guitar said:


> I think it's interesting that Ceaser's haters seem to hold him in a more God-like regard
> than people who watch and enjoy the show.


it's not "just ordinary people" who have condemned Cesar's tools & methods; multiple professional organizations 
from the American Humane Society ['no animals were harmed...' on films & staged performances] 
British Small-Animal Veterinarians, Swedish vet-associations, AVSAB [American Vet-Society of Animal Behaviorists], 
Am Vet-Medicine Assoc, APDT-uk, USA-apdt, COAPE, to APBC... an enormous assortment of k9-pros, 
*all of which organizations* said he is outdated, too harsh, misleads the viewing public, uses needless 
force & intimidation, is confrontational & floods the animals, etc, etc.

the reason their concern is so extreme is that so many potential dogs [or other species] are being put at risk: 
his show is broadcast in 50 countries, altho Italy actually banned it & Sweden was considering a ban, 
the last time i heard. *millions of people, with millions of dogs, all seeing risky behavior portrayed as imperative, 
means that some viewers will inevitably mimic the tools & methods, despite any disclaimer - 
which means a lot of dogs yanked, rolled, pinned, pushed, 'tapped' with a toe, poked, choked, and so on. 
equally inevitably, some of those dogs will be terrified or angry, others will react to pain, & folks Will Be Bitten.
it's as predictable as the sun's light or the phases of the moon - it will happen, and some dogs will die 
because they were highly stressed, and bit someone badly - or bolted and were hit by a car, or...

his fanbase is the general public & like-minded, often traditional-trainers who also use choke-, prong- or shock-collars.
trainers who abhor physical punishment or the use of pain & fear to control or intimidate criticize him -  
trainers who believe we must punish for dogs to learn, or we must punish to proof the dog, 
think he's terrific - and science-based research says they're wrong about punish to teach or proof.

the science is all on the side of reward-based training. Punishment, pain or fear are not just unnecessary - 
they actually retard learning by causing added stress; students learn best in an encouraging atmosphere, 
not a hypercritical punishing one; if a teacher cracks Ur knuckles every time U make an error, U get so stressed 
worrying about the next [inevitable] whack that U make more mistakes, not fewer - 
and the whole prospect of pain is so distracting, learning slows to a crawl. :scared: this is not helpful.*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dodigna said:


> ...what are the chances she is going to grow into a nice friendly large bull terrier? Very slim...
> She sees dog, she gets sent flying.
> 
> I believe even Cesar himself would be horrified at such behaviour from one of his fan, alas he is not there
> to explain how to do the jerks... It works on the telly, just persist and she will be calm submissive in the end!


awww - poor pup. :nonod: i agree, it's very likely she'll become very worried about even the prospect of another dog, 
and by 4 to 6-MO, either bark & lunge angrily to send them off, or quail and be tail-down, wanting to flee.

but sadly, the owner *will get what he wants:* a dog who will not want to meet other dogs. 
 in that sense, Hey!... it worked! :mad2: bloody ignorant dingbats, wrecking a sweet pup who is just 
innocently sociable & happy at the sight of another dog.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> It's a money thing now. Nothing to do with anything except making money (and there are other trainers who are clearly in it for the money over anything else BTW, where is the Jan Fennel thread?)


What Jan Fennell thread?


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

There have been some really good points raised tonight about CM and his show,especially by Colette and leashedforlife. (tried to rep you both, but have run out) I can't really add anything,everything's already been said.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Not personally, but I work with them often and have grown to love them a lot. To me Rotties are often sensitive, wary dogs that are on-guard a lot of the time. Not in an aggressive way, though. However, this is what brings on aggression in these dogs if not brought up correctly- they develop fear-aggression and, due to their size and imposing manner, they are the ones who are misunderstood.
> 
> If the guy says wear a muzzle, I wouldn't take any chances with a Rottie. They have the most powerful canine jaws; I wouldn't take the chance. :scared: In your line of work, your obviously being quite hands-on and therefore intrusive to dogs' personal space. Some will like it, others not so much. My advice would be to read up heavily on dog behaviour- calming signals, distance increasing signals and the like- to develop a good understanding of what the dogs you are grooming feel about you touching them. Saying that, I think it is an irresponsible owner that allows a nervous/wary dog to be groomed by an unknown person.


Thank you so much for your reply..Sorry I missed it until now....I Do agree with you...In the Diary it just says ''Can Be Snappy'' That obviously means YES HE CAN BITE... But I, at The mo Do not know What Causes him to Snap..I'll go through all of this with the owner when we meet I'm going to play it safe ...As always meet the Dog in the House and If I feel unsure of his Behaviour / Body Language I'll insist on the owner coming on the van with him...To Be Honest it's not worth the Risk..I Don't know how he's going to react to the bath or the Dryer etc

We do do nervous/wary Dogs most are the 1st time but as time goe's on they do get better....Most of the time they are just wary of the unknown ..But I agree that if I owned a Large Breed or Any Breed That Admittedly 'Snaps' I don't think I'd ask someone to Bath Him alone.

I've got him tomorrow anyway so I'll let you know how it went...He's got 2 Rottie's booked in It only says 1 needs to be muzzled...With ???????? Marks by it.:scared:

On a positive point I do do 5-6 Dogs of All Breeds Daily and not had any major incidents yet....Touch Wood for the future 

Oh, Forgot to add I agree with your comment of some being misunderstood We have lots of Rottie's on our books and the most That I do are 'Soppy Licky'' Dogs BUT this is the 1st time I've had ''Muzzle ??????'' by his notes.

May sound strange but you can get your gut instinct about a Dog when you meet the owners.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Just an update That Rotty (muzzle????) He Was a Big Soft Baby 
:lol:

He Jumped on the van on his own and had a Good old sniff around wagging his tail and fussing me :thumbup:

And in the Bath He loved every minute  He was loving the Dryer making Pleasure moans and Squirming all over the place with pure Joy.

He even gave me a Big Soppy Kiss when he was finished.

The Girl was good too but the Dryer Freaked her out so She had to have a Good Towel Dry. Both were Angels.

The Boy was only 3 years old.....The Girl was a 2 year old Rescue....


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> Just an update That Rotty (muzzle????) He Was a Big Soft Baby
> :lol:
> 
> He Jumped on the van on his own and had a Good old sniff around wagging his tail and fussing me :thumbup:
> ...


Well, good for you. Perhaps he's never been done before and someone suggested a muzzle as a precaution. Either way, that would have scared him, so silly idea.

We used to have a little mongrel who was a fully paid up mutt, yet he hated vets and would bite them given half a chance. Every vet we visited we told them to muzzle him or he will bite, but they never believed me and then had a moan at me when they got bitten. That last one straight away put a muzzle on; the only one who accepted that I knew my dog better than they did.

That rottie will look forward to coming back now and you'll get another big wet kiss.


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## Balto-x (Nov 7, 2010)

Sorry that's harsh! If the puppy had been. Big dog snapping and he didn't pull the dog away from yours u would be on here telling us about this idiot who couldn't control this dog!


dodigna said:


> Right, took Ray to the park today and a guy walked past with his gorgeous I would place 14-15 weeks old bull terrierx pup on leash (she always only ever is on leash). Ray being Ray he grants no puppy licence to nobody and expect all pups to be born with impeccable manners  So he is also always on lead in this particular park, anyhow, as the little girl passes she is keen to say hello to which Ray grumbles immediately... What does the owner do, he jerks her leash side way, mhmm now where could he have learnt to do that?
> 
> I say to him, don't worry she is already been told, in fact the pup had already learnt lesson 1 from Ray, must remember not to be so keen... But hey, as soon as she turns to look the guy jerks her leash again, this time harder
> Two steps and she tries to turn to look at us again, yet again the idiot jerks her leash, this time so hard that all 4 paws are off the ground! With this he also shouts at her. in frustration.. Now, what are the chances she is going to grow into a nice friendly large bull terrier? Very slim... She sees dog, she gets sent flying.
> ...


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

How wrong are you... Fist I never said my dog snapped, he grumbled, that is a growl. Secondly he was on a leash and so was the pup and a few mtrs away so he could have not got near. They where passing and as I said, this pup is always on a lead and she gets jerked very hard whether she looks at another dog, she doesn't walk at his pace, or looks at a person or generally does anything a normal pup does.



> u would be on here telling us about this idiot who couldn't control this dog!


You have made up a scene in your head and passed a sentence, weird! :confused1:


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## Balto-x (Nov 7, 2010)

You no nothing about the situation with puppy like I don't either, but people are to quick to pass judgement about things because people don't think that's the right way, how do u no the guy didn't think ur dog might attack his pup because he growled? U don't like I don't I shouldn't have assumed u would moan on here so I do apologise


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2011)

Balto-x said:


> You no nothing about the situation with puppy like I don't either, but people are to quick to pass judgement about things because people don't think that's the right way, how do u no the guy didn't think ur dog might attack his pup because he growled? U don't like I don't I shouldn't have assumed u would moan on here so I do apologise


And breathe?


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

The owner didn't think my dog would attack because a) I had him on leash and all he did was growl at the pup to calm down which she did, once she calmed down he softened his eyes and wagged his tail. and b) he was jerking her before he came to us and right after, he was jerking her hard walking out of the park... Yes, I did look all the way before he approached us and way after he had past, in fact I even followed a distance away to see whether he would stop whacking at her leash once there was no one around and no, he didn't.

This example was to show the effect a show like the DW has, little side jerks become big whacks out of frustration. And what sort of social skills this particular pup is going to develop if every time she sees a dog she gets jerked.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2011)

Reardless of the dogs history, jerking them on the lead and shouting is no way to respond. It will not help the dog in its training, nor its behaviour in the long run. So you dont really need to know anything about the dog - it is clear the owner has no clue about training his puppy.

And maybe in a yrs time when its a big dog, if it does behave badly it will likely be due to this "training" in its early development.

If it WAS a grown dog, and it WAS dog aggressive, lead jerking is STILL not acceptable.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Just to add to all you wonderful ceaser bashers, Ceasr is and was not the only one to come up with leash jerking. I've seen in go on for years, I used to do it myself long before I even knew who ceaser was, I don't bother as it's not a method I find useful, plus I used to get so much hell from my trainer :lol: 

I watched the Uk one last night and enjoy it, I had to laugh at the shepherd owners I was like well duh they are brothers and shepherds, tehy love playing rough.

One thing that annoyed me was the cockers owners, the dog would have been much happier with a ramp, you could see he was happier when they made a make shift one but of course they want to pick thier dog up and put him in


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> Just to add to all you wonderful ceaser bashers, Ceasr is and was not the only one to come up with leash jerking. I've seen in go on for years, I used to do it myself long before I even knew who ceaser was, I don't bother as it's not a method I find useful, plus I used to get so much hell from my trainer :lol:
> 
> I watched the Uk one last night and enjoy it, I had to laugh at the shepherd owners I was like well duh they are brothers and shepherds, tehy love playing rough.
> 
> One thing that annoyed me was the cockers owners, the dog would have been much happier with a ramp, you could see he was happier when they made a make shift one but of course they want to pick thier dog up and put him in


Of course he didnt invent it, its the knee jerk reaction to the layman. But he shouldnt encourage it; as it is not only pretty useless as a technique but also damaging to the dog. I dont think anyone said he DID invent it :confused1:... his shows just reinforce these sorts of techniques.

Even though he ISNT a trainer and tells people NOT to copy his techniques, its a show about dog behaviour and people will obviously try to mimik because they see it "seemingly" work on the show and they dont know any better (the lay person that is)


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Well, good for you. Perhaps he's never been done before and someone suggested a muzzle as a precaution. Either way, that would have scared him, so silly idea.
> 
> We used to have a little mongrel who was a fully paid up mutt, yet he hated vets and would bite them given half a chance. Every vet we visited we told them to muzzle him or he will bite, but they never believed me and then had a moan at me when they got bitten. That last one straight away put a muzzle on; the only one who accepted that I knew my dog better than they did.
> 
> That rottie will look forward to coming back now and you'll get another big wet kiss.


Yes He Will...I always give them the benefit of the Doubt....We Do get Dogs that DO need muzzles...mostly little Terriers...There's only a few though Bless them I still love the little un's though even though I've had many a nip off the little beggars  I can honestly say I've never had a prob with Big Dogs....

With one exception................ I won't do Am.Bulldlogs..And thats with good reason having been vertually Attacked by 2 I went out to..My Boss doe's ALL Am.B.Dogs now..Luckily she was with me with the 1st so she saw what happened then I had another in the same week and the owner Bought him out to me and it That one literally Flew at me as well....(I Did bath him though Muzzled with the owner holding him But I won't go again :scared:I Really do not like the Breed and thats not becouse of my personnal experiences its listening to a few other experiences people have had with them..I don't know what it is with them.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SpringerHusky said:


> Just to add to all you wonderful ceaser bashers, Ceasr is and was not the only one to come up with leash jerking. *I've seen in go on for years*, I used to do it myself long before I even knew who ceaser was, I don't bother as it's not a method I find useful, plus I used to get so much hell from my trainer :lol:
> 
> I watched the Uk one last night and enjoy it, I had to laugh at the shepherd owners I was like well duh they are brothers and shepherds, tehy love playing rough.
> 
> One thing that annoyed me was the cockers owners, the dog would have been much happier with a ramp, you could see he was happier when they made a make shift one but of course they want to pick thier dog up and put him in


That is exactly the point us Caesar Bashers are trying to make. It has been going on for years, along with the pack leader rubbish and all the other harsh methods that have been traditional for a very long time. Things have changed, science and research have proved these methods wrong, yet he thinks it's ok to promote them as the thing to do to millions of viewers.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

NicoleW said:


> Two days ago. I took Duke to the park.
> 
> I walked him up and down this path, "heel, sit, heel" treating, goodboy etc.
> 
> ...


Had the same thing with Flynn at the vets on Thursday. Had to be there on time, rushed the whole thing - both of us in a state - he played up merry hell, pulled me from here to kingdom come and was a total embarrassment!
This beautiful boy who normally walks right by my side, not even a hint of a pull was out of my control and I just couldn't be calm with a 57kgs dog acting like he was pulling a sled! All because of an appoitment that I had to keep and then be kept waiting for half an hour.
There was no way I couldn't feel angry and stressed and it showed on him BIG TIME!
Since then our walks have been fine again but goodness knows how you are supposed to feel calm in a situation like that - well I couldn't anyway! I could have strangled him! 

Definitely being calm is the way to having a calm dog but once he's reached level 10 it's a battle of stregnth between the two of us. That is one thing I admire about CM, he does stay calm and he is patient and I know it works with Flynn far better than a full on wrestling match but once we've lost it calmness and patience goes out of the window with me.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> It would perhaps make "interesting" reading to hear about CM's failures, or doesn't he have any ....


I did read somewhere that he was forcing a 'lazy' dog to exercise, the dog died after, and they never showed the episode, but it turns out that the dog had a medical issue that made it painful for him to walk/exercise 

**

did anyone watch the show? I found it rubbish!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> I did read somewhere that he was forcing a 'lazy' dog to exercise, the dog died after, and they never showed the episode, but it turns out that the dog had a medical issue that made it painful for him to walk/exercise


Yep, I find some things distressing and I would have thought a vet would have evaluated the dog first to dispell any medical condition, I mean isn't that what the owner does *before* the dog see's a trainer/behaviorist? If not *they* need shooting too IMO!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> I did read somewhere that he was forcing a 'lazy' dog to exercise, the dog died after, and they never showed the episode, but it turns out that the dog had a medical issue that made it painful for him to walk/exercise
> 
> **
> 
> did anyone watch the show? I found it rubbish!


I used to think Joshua was lazy when he laid down only a little way into our walk. I would walk put his lead on and walk him a little bit further, but he wasn't full grown yet so I never pushed it; just a few yards further I thought. Then when he was 19 months he got diagnosed with arthritis. I suppose if CM were involved he would have forced him into one of his silly "high energy" runs and totally crippled him.

Any decent behaviourist would suggest a vet visit before trying to make a dog exercise.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> ...[Cesar]... was not the only one to come up with leash jerking. I've seen in go on for years,
> I used to do it myself long before I even knew who [Cesar] ceaser was...


any number of folks on the forum have pointed out that Cesar is recycling *Koehler* with a few new terms, 
but basically the same physical punishments / "corrections" -- Cesar was only *born in 1969,* making him 
younger than me - in fact, i was training my first pup before he was born. 

so - IMO & IME - he has zero justification for his POST-WORLD-WAR era tools & techniques, which is when 
*Koehler, Haggerty and other WW-2 veterans* became the first dog-trainers to popularize 
group dog-training classes to the pet-owning public; Woodhouse in the UK followed in their well-trodden 
footsteps shortly thereafter, but in the 60-years since, *plenty* of more modern & more humane methods 
have superceded the old yank-n-yell boot camp routine - even the US-Army does not do it that way, anymore, 
and they are _*very*_* slow* to learn any new, non-traditional innovations, hidebound as they are; 
the DawgWrassler is lagging significantly, IMO.


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## LouJ69 (Feb 28, 2009)

What annoys me is that cm talks about how he had very little english when he jumped the mexican border & entered the states. I wonder if he would be such a good 'entertainer/people person' if someone tried to choke him or poke him wit a cattle prod every time he got something wrong when he was learning english? I reckon he'd be a complete different person to be honest. What it seems to me is that everyone is out for the 'easy fix'-we see it every day in life, not only with dogs. The thing that makes him seem so appealing to people is that he seems to offer that quick fix when it comes to people's dogs. Of course people are gonna do it his way coz it's so much easier than having to actually take the time to train the dog using positive methods that take time to work, but in the long run will make the owners lives easier. I can tell you-if someone kicked me in the ribs & told me to heel or sit-I would too!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Yep, I find some things distressing and I would have thought a vet would have evaluated the dog first to dispell any medical condition, I mean isn't that what the owner does *before* the dog see's a trainer/behaviorist? If not *they* need shooting too IMO!


Hopefully CM asks for evidence that dogs have been health checked before beginning these "regimes" ...


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

LouJ69 said:


> What annoys me is that cm talks about how he had very little english when he jumped the mexican border & entered the states. I wonder if he would be such a good 'entertainer/people person' if someone tried to choke him or poke him wit a cattle prod every time he got something wrong when he was learning english? I reckon he'd be a complete different person to be honest. What it seems to me is that everyone is out for the 'easy fix'-we see it every day in life, not only with dogs. The thing that makes him seem so appealing to people is that he seems to offer that quick fix when it comes to people's dogs. Of course people are gonna do it his way coz it's so much easier than having to actually take the time to train the dog using positive methods that take time to work, but in the long run will make the owners lives easier. I can tell you-if someone kicked me in the ribs & told me to heel or sit-I would too!


*:lol: He doesn't kick the dogs in the ribs or anywhere else.Gosh don't people know the difference between a tap and a kick?
And why do people keep refering to him being an illegal imigrant? what the hell has that got to do with anything?*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Hopefully CM asks for evidence that dogs have been health checked before beginning these "regimes" ...


If that were the case, it would have at least researched the breed before dragging growing, giant puppy up a spiral staircase. You can hope, but I very much doubt you will get your wish.


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## LouJ69 (Feb 28, 2009)

I know that when someone swings a foot at me, they're kicking me! I've seen him poke dogs in the ribs pretty roughly too. I wasn't specifically saying he kicks dogs, but I was trying to get across the point that if someone treated me the way that he treats some of those dogs, I'd definitely obey them too! I just think it's a shame that someone in his influential position is showing people all the wrong things. Flooding dogs is awful-no wonder the dog obeys him-the poor thing has retreated inside itself with fear! If those dogs were human, they'd all be signing themselves into psychiatric hospitals all over the place, all they'd be short of doing is sitting in a corner & banging their heads off a wall.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *:lol: He doesn't kick the dogs in the ribs or anywhere else.Gosh don't people know the difference between a tap and a kick?
> And why do people keep refering to him being an illegal imigrant? what the hell has that got to do with anything?*


You are right CM doesn't kick he taps and fair enough... It is the ignorant followers which are the great majority of his fans that kick, that get flustered and angry whilst correcting. It's pointless arguing this on a forum where the majority of people are more experienced with dogs then the average joes who watch the show...

People keep referring to him as an immigrant because his life history is inherent to his success. The TV production would have not cared as much to turn him into what he is today if he didn't a) have influential client to start with (and the shows does name drop quite a bit and b) if they didn't see the potential of a good Cinderella story behind the person.


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## LouJ69 (Feb 28, 2009)

Continuing from my previous post-years ago techniques like that were used to 'treat/cure' people with mental health problems i.e. Flooding, punishment & aversives etc. This theory has since been disproven & in fact would now be seen as barbaric. This is the same with dog training-those methods were accepted in the past, but have since been shown to be detrimental to a dog's health. What annoys many people about cm is that he continues to use these methods & refuses to admit that he may be wrong. Any canine behaviour or training course that you go to nowadays will tell you that aversives do not work in the long run. It's just a shame that he can't 'get with the program' as Oprah says!lol


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LouJ69 said:


> Continuing from my previous post-years ago techniques like that were used to 'treat/cure' people with mental health problems i.e. Flooding, punishment & aversives etc. This theory has since been disproven & in fact would now be seen as barbaric. This is the same with dog training-those methods were accepted in the past, but have since been shown to be detrimental to a dog's health. What annoys many people about cm is that he continues to use these methods & refuses to admit that he may be wrong. *Any canine behaviour or training course that you go to nowadays will tell you that aversives do not work in the long run.* It's just a shame that he can't 'get with the program' as Oprah says!lol


Unfortunately, that is not true. There are still a lot selling training courses and preaching this rubbish, who refuse to change. I have been looking into a lot of them and bought into the Canine Behaviour Centre Dog Psychology Course - waste of money if anyone is thinking of it. A lot of it is good stuff, but I have just come to a bit that tells me if my dog paws at my arm, he is being dominant :frown: So I have abandoned it for the time being. Ferdie is always pawing at my arm; why? because he wants a cuddle!


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## LouJ69 (Feb 28, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Unfortunately, that is not true. There are still a lot selling training courses and preaching this rubbish, who refuse to change. I have been looking into a lot of them and bought into the Canine Behaviour Centre Dog Psychology Course - waste of money if anyone is thinking of it. A lot of it is good stuff, but I have just come to a bit that tells me if my dog paws at my arm, he is being dominant :frown: So I have abandoned it for the time being. Ferdie is always pawing at my arm; why? because he wants a cuddle!


That's a shame you wasted your money on that. I'm currently in my second year of a really good Canine Behaviour & Training course near Hull. It's all positive training-based. We're not even allowed to bring choke chains into college. It was this course that really opened my eyes to positive reinforcement etc. One book that I would highly recommend is Barry Eaton's Dominance: Fact or Fiction. It's brilliant-talks about how stupid all that dominance stuff is!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LouJ69 said:


> That's a shame you wasted your money on that. I'm currently in my second year of a really good Canine Behaviour & Training course near Hull. It's all positive training-based. We're not even allowed to bring choke chains into college. It was this course that really opened my eyes to positive reinforcement etc. One book that I would highly recommend is Barry Eaton's Dominance: Fact or Fiction. It's brilliant-talks about how stupid all that dominance stuff is!


Well, there is a section to say what you don't agree with, so that will definitely be going down on my form! What has annoyed me more than anything is that there are no tests, no marking, just self assessment questions. Then you send off for your certificate. So in effect, anyone can buy the thing, not bother to read it, and get the certificate saying they are a qualified dog psychologist! I could have gained as much information from reading some much cheaper books. Anyway, done now.

I have found a much better course, which is not home based, and is two days theory and four days actual practical training with real doggies! And all positive stuff. Much better.

Hope you get on ok with yours.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Whilst we're on the subject of books and courses....

My advice to anyone wanting to get a rounded view, looking at both sides of the debate would be this... Read Cesars books. Then read Barry Eaton's "Dominance: Fact or fiction?" and "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson.

Of all the dog care / training / behaviour books I have read, Culture Clash is imo the best by far. Can't recommend it enough, just sorry it took me so long to get round to reading it.


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

LouJ69 said:


> One book that I would highly recommend is Barry Eaton's Dominance: Fact or Fiction. It's brilliant-talks about how stupid all that dominance stuff is!


Great book - I give it to all my puppy owners to read if they tell me their puppy is being dominant


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colette said:


> Whilst we're on the subject of books and courses....
> 
> My advice to anyone wanting to get a rounded view, looking at both sides of the debate would be this... Read Cesars books. Then read Barry Eaton's "Dominance: Fact or fiction?" and "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson.
> 
> Of all the dog care / training / behaviour books I have read, Culture Clash is imo the best by far. Can't recommend it enough, just sorry it took me so long to get round to reading it.


I have bought the Culture Clash, but it only came a few days ago so haven't read it yet. I read one of Millan's books a few years ago but don't think I could stomach another! I have also got Karen Pryor Don't Shoot the Dog. I will look into the other one. Thanks.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Don't Shoot The Dog is brilliant - I love the fact she shows how the same techniques can be used for everything from dog training to dealing with addictions or moaning relatives. It was that book that helped me quit my 20 a day smoking habit (cold turkey) back in May.
(Back on the cigs now unfortunately, after a horrendous winter, but will use the same method to quit again soon)

Another one worth reading is The Other End Of The Leash by Patricia B. McConnell. And of course Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas. Very quick book containing mostly photos - but fascinating. 

If anyone has other recommendations please add them - I always need to find new ones to read!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colette said:


> Don't Shoot The Dog is brilliant - I love the fact she shows how the same techniques can be used for everything from dog training to dealing with addictions or moaning relatives. It was that book that helped me quit my 20 a day smoking habit (cold turkey) back in May.
> (Back on the cigs now unfortunately, after a horrendous winter, but will use the same method to quit again soon)
> 
> Another one worth reading is The Other End Of The Leash by Patricia B. McConnell. And of course Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas. Very quick book containing mostly photos - but fascinating.
> ...


Is calming signals about body language? Perhaps someone should buy it for CM!:lol:

I am thinking about giving up smoking, so might have a look about that, but I am not very good at giving things up and I enjoy smoking. I suppose you have to want to do it, and I am not 100% sure that I do!


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Yes - calming signals is about body language, position etc (eg approaching in an arc rather than directly). There were a few things that really made me think "wow - how did I miss that it seems so obvious".

For my smoking, I went by the methods of getting rid of unwanted behaviour - just went through the list and found ways of using most of them (except punishment!). 
For example, for "train an alternative, incompatible behaviour" I stocked up on chupachups lollies and chewing gum. For "shoot the dog" (i.e. remove the problem) I banned smoking in the flat, hid all the lighters, ashtrays etc, washed out the ashtry in my car and filled it with change for parking, etc.
And for my "reward good behaviour" I chose something I wanted to save for (in my case a new tent), drew a basic outline on paint, and gridded it into the right umber of squares. EAch square was one packet of **** - so £5. Every day I went without smoking I got to colour in another square and watch my saving grow!
Spent a couple of days making my list to cover all my bases and getting things like the lollies ad some nicotine patches, and bang - gave up.

Going through the others now - Inside of a dog by Alexandra Horowitz was very good - and I also loved Dogwise by the late John Fisher - which is mostly about training a second hand GSD as a police dog - without using their traditional methods.


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## HWAR (Jul 19, 2010)

Some brilliant book advice - thanks guys!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by LouJ69
> What annoys me is that [CM/DW] talks about how *he had very little english when he* jumped the mexican border
> & *entered the [United] States. I wonder if he would be such a good 'entertainer' / 'people person'
> if someone tried to choke him or poke him with a cattle prod every time he got something wrong,
> when he was learning English? I reckon he'd be a complete different person* to be honest.





JANICE199 said:


> :lol: He doesn't kick the dogs in the ribs or anywhere else.
> Gosh don't people know the difference between a tap and a kick?
> And why do people keep [referring] to him being an illegal [immigrant]? W-T-H has that got to do with anything?


as U will see if U re-read the statement, *the primary focus is that his command of English was so poor, 
one of his first 3 celebrity-clients paid a tutor in English for him; his accent was almost impenetrable.* 
the kindness of that woman contributed mightily to his commercial success - as did his rags-to-riches story, 
and his simplistic appeal - _'Do this & it works, instantly!'_ :thumbup:

the problem with punishment is NOT that it does not work; it does. The problem is punishment has fallout: 
things we don't want, which come with its use - like side-effects of medication, which can be predicted 
or utterly unexpected. Some side-FX of punishment include - 
* being afraid to do *anything* without a cue _
[which looks remarkably like 'calm' if U don't recognize stress - or simply ignore it]_ 
* slow-motion compliance and other calming behaviors -  _"chill out, please?..."_
* appeasement signals, including a lifted forepaw, lip-licking, look-aways [turning the head], & lowering the body; 
rolling over & p*ssing oneself is a profound appeasement signal, squatting & peeing is one stage below that.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colette said:


> Yes - calming signals is about body language, position etc (eg approaching in an arc rather than directly). There were a few things that really made me think "wow - how did I miss that it seems so obvious".
> 
> For my smoking, I went by the methods of getting rid of unwanted behaviour - just went through the list and found ways of using most of them (except punishment!).
> For example, for "train an alternative, incompatible behaviour" I stocked up on chupachups lollies and chewing gum. For "shoot the dog" (i.e. remove the problem) I banned smoking in the flat, hid all the lighters, ashtrays etc, washed out the ashtry in my car and filled it with change for parking, etc.
> ...


I did give up for seven weeks once when I was saving for a fancy new camcorder, but once I had the camera, the incentive was gone. Then my brother died suddenly and I needed a ***. He would have been horrified to think he was the cause of me smoking again, as he was always nagging me. I think I shall have to give it more thought:lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Hopefully CM asks for evidence that dogs have been health checked before beginning these "regimes" ...


he *Did* not - perhaps he has changed that poor policy, and now he does; at least, one would hope!

does anyone else recall the pathetic little Chi, a street-stray that Cesar claimed the usual *dumbinance* B-S about? 
the dog was taken in by a poverty-stricken rescue-group, i think in Mexico but it may have been the Southwest - 
Arizona, New Mexico, Texas? somewhere in the desert. Anyhow, Cesar put this pathetic little mite on a leash 
and dragged her around - talking about how *dumbinant* she was, needed a leader, etc - 
well, after a vet saw her, turned out she had *joint & skeletal issues,* anyone who looked at her 
with attention would see her roached-spine, weird angles in her rear legs, stilted gaits, and so on. 
poor wee thing - she needed pain-meds, supplements and possibly surgery, not *dominating*. :thumbdown:


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## woodwitch (Jun 1, 2010)

Personally, I'm more of a Victoria Stilwell fan - would choose her over the dog whisperer any day.


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## Terr (Mar 2, 2010)

So... anyone tuning in tonight to watch? 8pm NatGeo Wild I think.



woodwitch said:


> Personally, I'm more of a Victoria Stilwell fan - would choose her over the dog whisperer any day.


Does by any chance have anything to do with the fact that she's a bit more pleasing to the eye?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Terr said:


> So... anyone tuning in tonight to watch? 8pm NatGeo Wild I think.
> 
> *Does by any chance have anything to do with the fact that she's a bit more pleasing to the eye? [/QUOTE*]
> 
> More to do with her being a lot more pleasing to the dogs, I should think. No, I shan't be watching.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> he *Did* not - perhaps he has changed that poor policy, and now he does; at least, one would hope!
> 
> does anyone else recall the pathetic little Chi, a street-stray that Cesar claimed the usual *dumbinance* B-S about?
> the dog was taken in by a poverty-stricken rescue-group, i think in Mexico but it may have been the Southwest -
> ...


Is that the one he stuck in with his pack so they could push her around because it would make her walk or something? Poor thing ended up being put down because she was in liver failure


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Will be recording and saving for future reference, just as I do all the dog training progs - broad minded I think they call it!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'll be watching it. Like I said he impressed me last week using treats to train the cocker who was scared of the car and telling them to stay out his face because he was feeling crowded. Much improved from the cane corso puppy with the same problem who he dragged into the car using a prong collar


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