# whelping nightmare, never again.



## cusochris (Jun 15, 2009)

Hi im new to the forum but feel that the experience we had during our puppies births needs to be shared so that people know its not all sunshine and champagne. The nightmare started on the sunday morning (16th August) at o445hrs. Bonnie our westie had been in labour, first litter, for about 8 hours and sudenly started to give birth. As the puppy began to arrive she screamed like ive never heard before and tried to bite at he puppy which was halfway out. I had to grab the puppy and try to calm her down with little success. I had to cut and tie the cord as the placenta was retained at this point. She ran to the other side of the room and would have absolutely nothing to do with the pup apart from growl when we took it near and try to get as far away from it as she could. 
I cleaned the puppy and put it in her bedding area for her to calm down but realised after trying for about half an hour she was going to have nothing to do with it. Still traumatised she then gave birth to another 7 pups over the next 7 hours with a similar reaction each time and retaining each placenta until the next or subsequent pups were born. Having read the literature and scanned the websites for weeks before the birth we knew the pups had little chance of surviving if she continued to reject them. We did everything by the book but she just sat in the corner shaking, completely ingnoring the puppies pleas. We managed to get her to lay down after the 8th pup was born (average litter for a westie is 3-4) but there was no milk and the pups were becoming distressed by this point. 

We phoned our vet at about 0700hrs but got the emergency line as it was sunday, they told us if we wanted to see the vet it would cost us £90 for the consultation plus £90 for each individual dog to be examined after that plus any treatment costs. We simply didnt have that kind of money, we realised that we would need over £1000 just to get them seen and treated, with no guarantee of a successful outcome. I phoned an alternative vet who did actually provide us with the address and opening times of a large pet store which might sell bottles and puppy milk after my husband had visited everyone we could find (we live in stevenston, Ayrshire and the petshop was in Ayr and opened at 12oohrs). For the next 50 plus hours solid my husband, my adult son and i fed the pups every 2 hours night and day, we encouraged them to urinate and deficate successfully and kept them warm as close to bonnie as we could. It was heartbreaking to lose first the runt which was born last, then one after the other over the next three days. 

By the middle of day 3 bonnies milk finally came through and we managed to gently persuade her to lie down and let the last 4 feed. This continued 2 hourly until friday when she was calm enough to allow them to feed easily. We lost one more on the friday evening after hoping we would lose no more. We now have three healthy well fed pups, and she is finally the perfect mother in every way. Our vet on the monday morning said in view of what happened we were amazingly lucky to have any pups at all and was surprised any had survived. I have written this in the hope that anyone thinking of breeding at home is fully aware of the drawbacks and heartbreak that can happen. We are not experts but thought we knew enough to get us through, i am a qualified adult nurse and we spent hours on the internet, reading books and talking to others who have bred litters but nothing prepared us for the sheer trauma our bitch experienced and its concequenses. 

I will add to this thread to update everyone who is interested on the pups proggress and hope it helps others to be more prepared than we were concerning the drawbacks. I watched dozens of videos of dogs whelping on youtube but not one showed any problems or serious complications. I can understand this in a way,as people dont like to admit their shortcomings, but we also thought it wouldnt happen to us. Thanks for reading this and i hope it will be helpfull to those thinking of breeding at home.


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## Domoniques (Feb 7, 2009)

Hi 
How old was the bitch that had pups .


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

I'm so sorry for you this is heart braking


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## molly8 (Aug 24, 2009)

aww thats so sad! makes me happy that when my old dog pupped we had no problems and no deaths i couldnt imagine what you went threw x


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

God,what a nightmare  i have been very lucky (so far)and had easy whelpings but even they are nerve wrecking enough. You must be emotionally and physically drained.The fact that you still have 3 pups alive and thriving is a credit to you and your family,without your dedication they wouldn't have survived.
I have to say i think the vets attitude the first time was pretty bad 

Hope they continue to thrive and well done for saving the pups.


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## nat1979 (Jan 2, 2009)

It is true alot of people dont tell about they bad whelping etc 
When i worked with the greyhounds we had a bitch that had a big litter by c section as she was having 13 pups 
When we got mum and pups home she did want to know he pups and would go for them So we had to bottle feed every 2 hours the same as you 

The mother had to be taking away full stop as she could not stand the pups and even when we tryed to hold her down she was not happy 

My lucky for us all pups went on to live a happy life


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## PennyH (Dec 30, 2008)

Oh my god - I am so sorry you went through this nightmare.
I love Westies and cannot begin to imagine how awful it must have been for all of you - your little girl included.
I am so glad that you were able to keep some of the puppies and hope they continue to thrive and grow into lovely, healthy dogs.
Lots of love and hugs for you and your lovely girl (and her pups!)


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## cusochris (Jun 15, 2009)

Bonnie will be 3 in December, many thanks to those who have replied, it helps to know that it might help inform others of the downside to breeding. None of the information we read said that the change from powdered milk to breast milk might constipate the puppies but luckily as we perservered with wiping the pups down below for as long as it took with wet cotton wool we finally unblocked them. We're all exhausted now and quietly hoping it all continues to go well with the three that she still has. One big drawback we found with bottlefeeding was that they inhaled some of the formula at times as they weren't controlling the flow, the teat was no matter how hard you tried. I can't explain how deverstated i feel at losing the pups and would never wish it to happen to anyone else.


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## pommum (Jun 16, 2008)

I feel for you very much so, as I have had to part hand rear my litter this last week as they were born a week early and she had no milk for them, they are now feeding from mum and thankfully we didn't loose any, but we have had two litters previous with the same girl and had to hand rear a single pup in each litter but unfortunatly lost them both, she has had 3 in each litter but only two made it in her other two litters but touch wood this litter is thriving well.

I hope the three pups you have left start to pick more now they are with their mum.

take care
Sarah


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

So sorry to hear you went through this.

I have had to feed odd pups out of litters but not completely usually just topping them up when a bitch had a big litter.

Hopefully the 3 remaining pups will continue to thrive and do well.


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

hi, i am really sorry to hear about your little puppies but at least mum is ok, i actually lost my little girl during whelping a couple of weeks ago and cant describe how i still feel today we have one little puppy(the other little one died) but nothing can ever replace her  not everything is as straightforward as people think as you have had the misfortune to discover good luck with your 3 little puppies and mum


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Let that be a lesson to everyone who thinks breeding is a good idea. My take on this is that if you cant afford to do the right thing then you shouldnt be breeding in the first place.


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## peppapug (Dec 14, 2008)

archiebaby said:


> hi, i am really sorry to hear about your little puppies but at least mum is ok, i actually lost my little girl during whelping a couple of weeks ago and cant describe how i still feel today we have one little puppy(the other little one died) but nothing can ever replace her  not everything is as straightforward as people think as you have had the misfortune to discover good luck with your 3 little puppies and mum


I am soo sorry to hear that. How did it happen, if you dont mind me asking. You may have posted but i have been away. Awful.

I would consider myself a caring pet breeder - i know, not everyone agrees in pet breeders but i bred one litter to keep a pup, made a loss on the litter and spent weeks 24/7 with my girl and her pups. I can honestly say i am not cut out for breeding and would never do it again. I still miss the pups like crazy, spend time worrying about them getting sick and it being my fault, and dare one of the new owners not reply to an email or call and i am practically in my car!!! I have found it the most draining and in some ways heartbreaking experience. Yes there were good sides but they were my babies and i feel so responsible for them still. I wouldnt say i regret it but i would/could never do it again.

Probably another thread but does anyone in hindsight regret having bred a litter?


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## cusochris (Jun 15, 2009)

I can only assume Jo P has never had any real problems with breeding because if they had they would realise that anything involving emotions and reactions where animals or people are concerned is far from an exact science and your comment is like a kick in the teeth to all those like us who did their best in a very tragic, unpredictable, difficult situation after researching for weeks prior to the births. I also have a degree in adult nursing so didnt go into this completely blindly. Do you blame a post natal human mother if she initially rejects her baby? As a dog owner you should know that dogs can have the same reaction emotionally. Bonnie was severly traumatized so didnt produce milk for the first two days because of this and even our vet was amazed we had managed to save three after what happened. Its not all about money, and yes we could have found the £1000 plus if neccesary, however the three vets we spoke to on the phone all said that all we could really do was exactly what we did do. I would like to add that i even phoned the scottish sun, local radio station, herald newspaper and sspca to try and get hold of the equipment we needed with no luck at all. This was a sunday unfortunately. Im sorry if i'm human and didn't think of every possible senario and problem that could arise. I dont think i could have coped had we lost another one and hope her lost puppies now rest in peace.


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## cusochris (Jun 15, 2009)

Just a note to say that we bred our dog for family and friends only and had 6 homes allready waiting so it was nothing to do with profit.


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## peppapug (Dec 14, 2008)

cusochris said:


> I can only assume Jo P has never had any real problems with breeding because if they had they would realise that anything involving emotions and reactions where animals or people are concerned is far from an exact science and your comment is like a kick in the teeth to all those like us who did their best in a very tragic, unpredictable, difficult situation after researching for weeks prior to the births. I also have a degree in adult nursing so didnt go into this completely blindly. Do you blame a post natal human mother if she initially rejects her baby? As a dog owner you should know that dogs can have the same reaction emotionally. Bonnie was severly traumatized so didnt produce milk for the first two days because of this and even our vet was amazed we had managed to save three after what happened. Its not all about money, and yes we could have found the £1000 plus if neccesary, however the three vets we spoke to on the phone all said that all we could really do was exactly what we did do. I would like to add that i even phoned the scottish sun, local radio station, herald newspaper and sspca to try and get hold of the equipment we needed with no luck at all. This was a sunday unfortunately. Im sorry if i'm human and didn't think of every possible senario and problem that could arise. I dont think i could have coped had we lost another one and hope her lost puppies now rest in peace.


I agree, no one can predict what the outcome will be and you, your girl and your family have a horrendous journey. Welll done for saving the pups that you did and RIP to their brothers and sisters x


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Jo P said:


> Let that be a lesson to everyone who thinks breeding is a good idea. My take on this is that if you cant afford to do the right thing then you shouldnt be breeding in the first place.


I agree totally.



cusochris said:


> Its not all about money, and yes we could have found the £1000 plus if neccesary,


So why state below you didn't have that kind of money



cusochris said:


> we wanted to see the vet it would cost us £90 for the consultation plus £90 for each individual dog to be examined after that plus any treatment costs. *We simply didnt have that kind of money, we realised that we would need over £1000 just to get them seen and treated, with no guarantee of a successful outcome.*


There is no guarentee where breeding is concerned at all,how would you have coped had this bitch needed a c-section out of hours at £1000+ ?

Everything to do with breeding should be accounted for,this includes all emergency treatment that may or may not be required.

This is why breeders set surplus money aside to make sure there bitch can be seen if anything does go wrong,because when things go wrong with breeding it's usually big time.

I hope the remaining pups and mum continue to do well.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I agree totally.
> 
> So why state below you didn't have that kind of money
> 
> ...


I totally agree with Sal. I am sorry to hear you lost your Pups. I am also a trained nurse. Although I have been breeding on and off for years now I am always prepared for the worst.
Money is tight for me at the moment but I have just had a litter and made sure I had funds in an account just incase.
By researching most people imo have Money etc.... at hand just incase and Royal Canin Forumla these are major basics imo

I could have lost a litter of 6 as Bitch had Inertia and 1 pup stuck Cost me £800 to get them out alive


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

cusochris said:


> I can only assume Jo P has never had any real problems with breeding because if they had they would realise that anything involving emotions and reactions where animals or people are concerned is far from an exact science and your comment is like a kick in the teeth to all those like us who did their best in a very tragic, unpredictable, difficult situation after researching for weeks prior to the births. I also have a degree in adult nursing so didnt go into this completely blindly. Do you blame a post natal human mother if she initially rejects her baby? As a dog owner you should know that dogs can have the same reaction emotionally. Bonnie was severly traumatized so didnt produce milk for the first two days because of this and even our vet was amazed we had managed to save three after what happened. Its not all about money, and yes we could have found the £1000 plus if neccesary, however the three vets we spoke to on the phone all said that all we could really do was exactly what we did do. I would like to add that i even phoned the scottish sun, local radio station, herald newspaper and sspca to try and get hold of the equipment we needed with no luck at all. This was a sunday unfortunately. Im sorry if i'm human and didn't think of every possible senario and problem that could arise. I dont think i could have coped had we lost another one and hope her lost puppies now rest in peace.


No I havent had any problems with breeding - I've never bred because I'm not in a position to do so properly - and clearly neither are you. I dont give a monkeys if you think it was a kick in the teeth - staying up 24/7 to keep those pups alive shouldnt be commended - it should be expected - you arranged for them to come into this world and to my way of thinking you are responsible for them until they leave it!
What having a degree in adult nursing has to do with anything I dont know As for researching for weeks - well I know people who've researched for years before making the commitment to breed.
As far as the vets - I can only go on what you said in your original post and that was that the vet wanted £90 plus £90 per pup - now you are saying he said you could have done no more than you were doing - so what was he going to charge you £90 plus £90 per pup for exactly???
As for not coping if all the pups had died - well welcome to the world of breeding - I know people who've done everything right and lost the whole litter and their bitch. As Sally said what if your bitch had needed a c-section - she might have had one and still lost all her pups and her own life - thats the risk you take and you were more than willing to take it.
Please dont start with the emotive language - there's nothing gets my back up more than anthropomorphism!!!


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## cusochris (Jun 15, 2009)

No i didn't have that kind of money to hand but like any responsible dog owner i could have got hold of it if neccessary, but as the vet said the outcome would have been exactly the same whether we had taken them to him or not. We followed the vets instructions to the letter, unfortunately it wouldn't have made any difference whether we had the money or not so its not really an issue is it. I dont see the point of dwelling on it further. We can't feel any worse than we do believe me. If only wont bring my pups back nor will recriminations and sniping.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

I do feel for your ordeal and hope the remaining pups and mum continue to do well.

I must agree with some of the others though - I've always maintained that you need at least £1500 put aside for emergencies before you even think of breeding. You also have the outlay of food, wormers etc long before you can hope to take a deposit for a pup. It's something a lot of people don't think about. They just assume they will make enough from the pups when they are sold.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

cusochris said:


> No i didn't have that kind of money to hand but like any responsible dog owner i could have got hold of it if neccessary, but as the vet said the outcome would have been exactly the same whether we had taken them to him or not. We followed the vets instructions to the letter, unfortunately it wouldn't have made any difference whether we had the money or not so its not really an issue is it. I dont see the point of dwelling on it further. We can't feel any worse than we do believe me. If only wont bring my pups back nor will recriminations and sniping.


No it won't bring your pups back,however for newbies who are thinking of breeding it may open their eyes as to what breeding can really be like and yes money needs to be set aside for ALL scenario's whether or not it is needed is irrelevant,It should be there.
It's about been prepared for every possible situation.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

How many of the recommended health tests did you do before you had your bitch covered??? Obviously with your weeks of research you must have come across some recommendations.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Why didn't you have the milk before she whelped? You coukdhave saved a good few hours on that!
I was 'thrown in at the deep end' with an 8 week pregnant dog and the one thing I made sure of was that I had milk and bottles before the pups came, just in case.


I am sorry for the pups you lost and wish you luck with the remaining an mum.

x


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## Stellabelly (Jul 11, 2009)

Those little pups are very cute. Hope all continues to go well for you.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

I find this thread unbelievable 
The OP has come on here to warn other people that are considering breeding of the possible pit falls. 
I thought that that is what all you responsible breeders would like to inform prospective pet breeders about?
And here you all are, insulting and being aggressive to the OP


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## Suek (Apr 1, 2008)

I hope you are not going to keep her in that crate? Why isn't she in a whelping box? 

At the very least you could put 'bumper's' around the crate to stop any draughts coming in on the pups or have you got a heat lamp?


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> And here you all are, insulting and being aggressive to the OP


No insulting intended - certainly not from me. I say I felt for them. I do agree with Sallyanne that hopefully others will learn that it is not all smooth sailing, but I still maintain that have a 'fund' is so important. It may have made no difference in this case, but as this thread was aimed at informing people of the down sides to breeding thought it was worth emphasising.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Dundee said:


> No insulting intended - certainly not from me. I say I felt for them. I do agree with Sallyanne that hopefully others will learn that it is not all smooth sailing, but I still maintain that have a 'fund' is so important. It may have made no difference in this case, but as this thread was aimed at informing people of the down sides to breeding thought it was worth emphasising.


But the intention of the OP was admirable by posting this, and she must now feel even worse than she did before.
She obviously knows now that she was not prepared, it doesn't need rubbing in


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

rona said:


> I find this thread unbelievable
> The OP has come on here to warn other people that are considering breeding of the possible pit falls.
> I thought that that is what all you responsible breeders would like to inform prospective pet breeders about?
> And here you all are, insulting and being aggressive to the OP


I'm not a breeder - and I will post what I feel at any given time - this is a forum where opinions are asked for and I shall give mine - so long as it is done within the forum rules - or are you saying that I shouldnt give my opinion because it's not what you want to hear?? I am not an aggressive person - nor is my post aggressive in nature - it is concise and exactly what I want to say.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Jo P said:


> I'm not a breeder - and I will post what I feel at any given time - this is a forum where opinions are asked for and I shall give mine - so long as it is done within the forum rules - or are you saying that I shouldnt give my opinion because it's not what you want to hear?? I am not an aggressive person - nor is my post aggressive in nature - it is concise and exactly what I want to say.


Just my opinion too


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jo P said:


> How many of the recommended health tests did you do before you had your bitch covered??? Obviously with your weeks of research you must have come across some recommendations.


going by the KC there are no health test requirements nor recommendations for the west highland white terrier.....


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> But the intension of the OP was admirable by posting this, and she must now feel even worse than she did before.
> She obviously knows now that she was not prepared, it doesn't need rubbing in


It wasn't intended that way. In replying to a thread, it is not always directly to the OP (the first bit obviously was) but it's also aimed at others reading. Isn't that what a public forum is - otherwise if it was only for the OP ears, we could pm or email directly.

To cusochris - no offence was meant at all. And I do admire you for coming on here to tell first hand, what can go wrong. Hopefully others will benefit from it.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

rona said:


> I find this thread unbelievable
> The OP has come on here to warn other people that are considering breeding of the possible pit falls.
> I thought that that is what all you responsible breeders would like to inform prospective pet breeders about?
> And here you all are, insulting and being aggressive to the OP


It is about that Rona and by stating Replacement Milk and Money should an essential It may help others out before they breed


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Welcome to the forum, albeit in sad circumstances! 
I think your thread title has summed up the situation perfectly!!

Never again! thanks for sharing and if this thread stops just one person from breeding than that has to be a good thing.
All the best with your remaining pups
regards
DT


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Dundee said:


> It wasn't intended that way. In replying to a thread, it is not always directly to the OP (the first bit obviously was) but it's also aimed at others reading. Isn't that what a public forum is - otherwise if it was only for the OP ears, we could pm or email directly.
> 
> To cusochris - no offence was meant at all. And I do admire you for coming on here to tell first hand, what can go wrong. Hopefully others will benefit from it.





clueless said:


> It is about that Rona and by stating Replacement Milk and Money should an essential It may help others out before they breed


I do understand the points made, but if I could take it as a slight on the OP then how could it possibly make the OP feel?
She is upset enough as it is and has put this here as a warning to others.

Dundee Thank you for your clarification


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## Domoniques (Feb 7, 2009)

Hi 
If you had got the book in your research ( Book of the Bitch ) by J.M Evans & Kay White , it would have told you all you would have needed to know and you would have been prepared for anything .Book of the Bitch: Amazon.co.uk: J.M. Evans, Kay White: Books


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> going by the KC there are no health test requirements nor recommendations for the west highland white terrier.....


I do believe you are right. I do know a few Westie Breeders who have been sending blood to usa for dna testing re Atopic Dermatitis Off Topic though lol


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

I really just don't understand some of you posters... what the hell gives you the rights to jump into a thread and preach about a subject that you have absolutely no experience of ?? Come back when you've had some experience and know what you're actually ranting about ut:

Cusochris... I think you should be commended for your original post, it can't have been easy to be so honest about a horrible situation. Glad to see that Bonnie's now settled with her babies


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Domoniques said:


> Hi
> If you had got the book in your research ( Book of the Bitch ) by J.M Evans & Kay White , it would have told you all you would have needed to know and you would have been prepared for anything .Book of the Bitch: Amazon.co.uk: J.M. Evans, Kay White: Books


But the OP is merely demonstrating what can and does so often go wrong! book or no book the outcome would have still have been the same ! albeit there may have been milk at hand! and we have to remember that even going by the book sometimes things can still go very wrong! even for experienced breeders! 
Time to give the OP a break in my opinion! 
A big pat on the back from me for sharing!!!
DT


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Sorry to hear this..But as we are trying to put others off breeding..please them that have to carry on breeding take notice of this and have puppy milk to hand and have money set aside for any problems that may and do occur..Also liquid life aid is a must to have in the cupboard imo..

Like i said sorry to hear you lost them pup..Hopefully the others and mum will continue to do well..best of luck.


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## hobo99 (Aug 18, 2008)

What a shame , that when someone comes on the forum to say something thinking it would be of help to others,most of the replies she gets are getting at her .
She has had an upsetting time , and i am sure she now knows all the pit falls which is why she has come on here,( trying to be helpful) i really dont think she expected to be slated by all and sundry as she has been. 
I dont think that is what this thread was supposed to be about, i must admit i am surprised at how its turning out . ( but then maybe i am not ).


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## kelseye (Aug 16, 2009)

my heart goes out to you what a sad story.........


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

hobo99 said:


> What a shame , that when someone comes on the forum to say something thinking it would be of help to others,most of the replies she gets are getting at her .
> She has had an upsetting time , and i am sure she now knows all the pit falls which is why she has come on here,( trying to be helpful) i really dont think she expected to be slated by all and sundry as she has been.
> I dont think that is what this thread was supposed to be about, i must admit i am surprised at how its turning out . ( but then maybe i am not ).


Very well said!


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

I myself don't see alot wrong with the posts on this thread.I don't think they are directed maliciously at the OP but more of a wake up call for those thinking of breeding of what can and does go wrong.

I have found myself in a similar situation whereby our bitch had an extremely difficult labour and whelping,we ended up a the vets and lost two pups from the litter.However we were aware of the risks and had extra money to one side just incase,good job as we needed it.
This was her second litter she had previously whelped six strong healthy pups without any problems.

I feel for the OP having been in a similar situation,however I do think some of the points made are justified.


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

Its the same old ppl ranting this n that gets boring tbh...

its sad you have had this experience fortunately ive never had a bitch freak out whelping but i no of them and you did good with the little knowledge you had..

negatives are you really should have had replacement milk in Royal Canin's milk IMO is the best plus you get the bottle and 3 teats for diff flow also you should have had a mentor it is essential that anyone new to breeding has someone experienced at the end of a line to ring for advice...

the first vet u spoke to u shud complain about ! im aware emergency vets charge £90 consult fee but no way shud they have sed for each pup it dnt happen its a litter n so 1 consult fee !

Its horrendous watching pups fade but with the correct knowledge if you lose them you will no you did all you can x


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2009)

I am normally one of the first to criticize on the breeding threads!
But in this instance I feel that the orignal poster has joined this forum to relate to everyone that breeding is not always a 'bed of roses' The thread title says it all and I suspect that if you ask the OP would they have breed if they had been more aware of the things that could have gone wrong they would say NO! OK some of you will say more research should have been done! but it wasn't and sadly for those concerned a lesson was leart the hard way! 

To me the post came from the heart, was honest and factual! I'll say again if it makes just one person think twice prior to breeding their much loved pet then that can only be a good thing!

Again I wish the OP the bitch and the surviving pups all the very best.
DT


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

shazalhasa said:


> I really just don't understand some of you posters... what the hell gives you the rights to jump into a thread and preach about a subject that you have absolutely no experience of ?? Come back when you've had some experience and know what you're actually ranting about ut:
> 
> Cusochris... I think you should be commended for your original post, it can't have been easy to be so honest about a horrible situation. Glad to see that Bonnie's now settled with her babies


I have the right to say what I feel as I am a member of this forum - end of - and just because I havent bred a litter does NOT mean I dont have experience of it nor knowledge about it.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Natik said:


> going by the KC there are no health test requirements nor recommendations for the west highland white terrier.....


Alot of GOOD Westie breeders test for PRA and also do Hip Scoring as these two things in particular are prevelent within the breed.............. as for the KC ............... it's been said many times before, what do they know!!!!


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2009)

Jo P said:


> I have the right to say what I feel as I am a member of this forum - end of


Unfortunateley we don't, not any longer! due to recent new forum rules!


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## nat1979 (Jan 2, 2009)

Hope mum and pups are doing well


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Jo P said:


> I have the right to say what I feel as I am a member of this forum - end of - and just because I havent bred a litter does NOT mean I dont have experience of it nor knowledge about it.


how can you have experience if you've never bred a litter???

Fair play to the OP for posting her experiences , hind sight is a wonderful thing.
I do hope the bitch and her remaining pupscontinue to do well and hopefully others who are contemplating breeding take note of the advice and experiences given.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2009)

How heartbreaking 

A very sad lesson learnt the hard way, my heart goes out to you.

Hindsight is 20:20


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

dexter said:


> how can you have experience if you've never bred a litter???
> 
> Fair play to the OP for posting her experiences , hind sight is a wonderful thing.
> I do hope the bitch and her remaining pupscontinue to do well and hopefully others who are contemplating breeding take note of the advice and experiences given.


My sister breeds Shelties so yes I do have first hand experience of it - I also have numerous friends who breed Rotts and friends who rescue, including taking in bitches in whelp - there, now you know a bit more about me, are you satisfied?
I've never had a broken leg but it doesnt mean I dont know that it hurts!!!!


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Unfortunateley we don't, not any longer! due to recent new forum rules!


I've re-read the rules DT and I cant find anywhere that it states we cant express our opinions Would be a mighty silly forum if you cant debate topics


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## cusochris (Jun 15, 2009)

I'd like to thank the many people who have replied to this post including jo p (who is like someone who has never had children telling others how to raise them and what birth is like ) Thanks to those who sent private messages, there were too many to answer individually but they really lifted me. Yes we made mistakes and i openly admit that, but my reasons for posting were, as others have realised, to make people aware that with much research and even the money and vets on hand things do go badly wrong. People have said they have lost the bitch as well and i can't imagine the thought of that happening, it must have been horrendous. We thought we were prepared for anything but sadly we obviously were not and failed our pups and bitch. Life is full of people like us, normal everyday people who consider breeding for the first time and this is who we hope will read this account and be forewarned. And as for being accused of using emotive language, im sorry if we care and feel upset by this but we would never had done this if we had read what i have written. I implore people to write about it if things do go wrong or how can we learn and be aware beforehand. If people want to have a go at us then let them as long as some prospective breeders read it and it helps.


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## Spaniel mad (Jul 17, 2009)

cusochris said:


> I'd like to thank the many people who have replied to this post including jo p Thanks to those who sent private messages, there were too many to answer individually but they really lifted me. Yes we made mistakes and i openly admit that, but my reasons for posting were, as others have realised, to make people aware that with much research and even the money and vets on hand things do go badly wrong. People have said they have lost the bitch as well and i can't imagine the thought of that happening, it must have been horrendous. We thought we were prepared for anything but sadly we obviously were not and failed our pups and bitch. Life is full of people like us, normal everyday people who consider breeding for the first time and this is who we hope will read this account and be forewarned. And as for being accused of using emotive language, im sorry if we care and feel upset by this but we would never had done this if we had read what i have written. I implore people to write about it if things do go wrong or how can we learn and be aware beforehand. If people want to have a go let them as long as some prospective breeders read it and it helps.


Mum is looking really well x


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2009)

cusochris said:


> I'd like to thank the many people who have replied to this post including jo p Thanks to those who sent private messages, there were too many to answer individually but they really lifted me. Yes we made mistakes and i openly admit that, but my reasons for posting were, as others have realised, to make people aware that with much research and even the money and vets on hand things do go badly wrong. People have said they have lost the bitch as well and i can't imagine the thought of that happening, it must have been horrendous. We thought we were prepared for anything but sadly we obviously were not and failed our pups and bitch. Life is full of people like us, normal everyday people who consider breeding for the first time and this is who we hope will read this account and be forewarned. And as for being accused of using emotive language, im sorry if we care and feel upset by this but we would never had done this if we had read what i have written. I implore people to write about it if things do go wrong or how can we learn and be aware beforehand. If people want to have a go let them as long as some prospective breeders read it and it helps.


I for one admire you for posting your experience! Hope you continue to post and keep us uptodate on your surviving babies!
regards
DT


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2009)

cusochris said:


> I'd like to thank the many people who have replied to this post including jo p Thanks to those who sent private messages, there were too many to answer individually but they really lifted me. Yes we made mistakes and i openly admit that, but my reasons for posting were, as others have realised, to make people aware that with much research and even the money and vets on hand things do go badly wrong. People have said they have lost the bitch as well and i can't imagine the thought of that happening, it must have been horrendous. We thought we were prepared for anything but sadly we obviously were not and failed our pups and bitch. Life is full of people like us, normal everyday people who consider breeding for the first time and this is who we hope will read this account and be forewarned. And as for being accused of using emotive language, im sorry if we care and feel upset by this but we would never had done this if we had read what i have written. I implore people to write about it if things do go wrong or how can we learn and be aware beforehand. If people want to have a go let them as long as some prospective breeders read it and it helps.


Thank you so much for this post.
I feel you may have prevented the suffering of many bitches and puppies of the future.
I will keep bumping this thread as a reminder and warning to others


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I'd like to thank the many people who have replied to this post including jo p Thanks to those who sent private messages, there were too many to answer individually but they really lifted me. Yes we made mistakes and i openly admit that, but my reasons for posting were, as others have realised, to make people aware that with much research and even the money and vets on hand things do go badly wrong. People have said they have lost the bitch as well and i can't imagine the thought of that happening, it must have been horrendous. We thought we were prepared for anything but sadly we obviously were not and failed our pups and bitch. Life is full of people like us, normal everyday people who consider breeding for the first time and this is who we hope will read this account and be forewarned. And as for being accused of using emotive language, im sorry if we care and feel upset by this but we would never had done this if we had read what i have written. I implore people to write about it if things do go wrong or how can we learn and be aware beforehand. If people want to have a go let them as long as some prospective breeders read it and it helps.


Thank you for your post - it was an awful thing to go through.

I do hope that others will take note of your experience and rethink, but I fear that it will make little difference. So many pet owners want their pet to have a litter for all sorts of reasons, often sentimental ones. Human nature being what it is, they assume it won't happen to them. Often they know someone who had a litter from their pet without problems, so they cannot conceive of the problems, even if they read about them. I'm sure it didn't cross your mind that things would go wrong. People tend to do what they want regardless. To be honest, if they really put their pets first they wouldn't have a litter at all. Pregnancy and whelping puts a huge strain on a bitch and it is not something bitches get maternal about - I think people tend to humanise their pets and assume they will be broody and having a litter is like having a child.

It doesn't matter how many times we say on here, that pregancy and whelping is stressful and risky for a bitch - people go ahead regardless. They think breeders just don't want anyone else to have a litter and ignore any advice. I may sound pessamistic, but it is my experience, however, if it makes one person rethink then it will have been worth it.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2009)

Can't see what I said that needed editing! And seeing as it is my posts that have been deleted then the thread must have been deleted because of me!!!!best I go back on my holidays again me finks! (was going anyway!)have fun folks!

and to the OP - all the best with the pups! 
DT


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Can't see what I said that needed editing! And seeing as it is my posts that have been deleted then the thread must have been deleted because of me!!!!best I go back on my holidays again me finks! (was going anyway!)have fun folks!
> 
> and to the OP - all the best with the pups!
> DT


They were not just yours that were edited they were quite a few peoples posts


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## cusochris (Jun 15, 2009)

We had Angus (the dad) as a pup and Bonnie mothered him and protected him as if he were her own so what happened was so out of character for her. It's almost as if she had some sort of nervous breakdown when she began whelping. You would never believe she was the same dog again now, she's so protective and loving towards them and wont let them out of her sight. After the first two days when her milk finally came in we started to gently hold her on the floor and she slowely began to accept the pups suckling, until now, a week later, shes fantastic with them and so protective, will post a new picture weekly. Bonnie is in the puppy proofed crate with a vetenary heat pad under the blankets as after what happened she would not go anywhere near the whelping box area we built for her. It has allways been her escape pad and she loves chilling in it and allways has. We have however made sure that it is well padded and safe for the pups away from the busy areas of the house. I would like to use the forum to ask others opinions at time to time, as although there are lots of so called experts online they tend to give very conflicting answers sometimes. For example i've been told they can open their eyes after just one week, whereas another site said at least two? Also when can they begin controlling there own body temperature as this seems to be a question with varied answers from book to book and internet site to site? I'd rather rather ask people like yourselves who have actual down to earth experiences, thanks, chris.


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

Hi Chris

I'm so pleased things are starting to settle down now 

The pups will start opening their eyes any where between 1 & 2 weeks, it can vary. Molly's pup opened their eyes at a 1 weeks old but I know of other pups that it has been 14 days.

As for the heat pad, I had to remove mine after 3 days as the pups were getting too warm, you will be able to judge by watching if the pups are moving away from the heat. It's not cold at the moment, so as long as the pups are inside they should be fine.

Ask away with any questions you have, there is always someone around to answer


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> We had Angus (the dad) as a pup


Not wanting to upset anyone again, but as this thread is about the dangers of whelping and having a litter, it is not a good idea to use your own dog. Using an outside stud dog whose owner is experienced is very important, particularly for the novice breeder. Not only is your own dog unlikely to be the best match for your bitch, but more importantly, you will have a mentor on hand for advice and help you with any problems.

Glad to hear mum is now settling down to the job and the pups are doing well.


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## wooliewoo (May 27, 2008)

Our pups were 11 days when eyes opened and approx 15 days when ears opened, they will be 3 weeks tomorrow and they have the start of needles (woops ment teeth but they sure are sharp!!!)
Pups & mum will need worming from 2 weeks.


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

Hi, really pleased to hear you bitch and pups are doing well 
What a nightmare and a credit to you that all has ended as it has.
I know you have had advice about eyes opening, the pups will have an adult body temp at 5 weeks so should be able to reglate it themselves then.

Good luck


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

Dundee said:


> Not wanting to upset anyone again, but as this thread is about the dangers of whelping and having a litter, it is not a good idea to use your own dog. Using an outside stud dog whose owner is experienced is very important, particularly for the novice breeder. Not only is your own dog unlikely to be the best match for your bitch, but more importantly, you will have a mentor on hand for advice and help you with any problems.
> 
> Glad to hear mum is now settling down to the job and the pups are doing well.


I'm a first time breeder and have used my one of my own dogs for stud. I will say however that I've had numerous conversations with my bitches breeder before the actual mating and have constant contact with her and other breeder friends... it wasn't just done without any guidance. 
Regarding being a good match, it is true that your own dog might not be a good match but it's also true that the dog could be a perfect match.
To be honest you could see something in the show ring that could be a perfect match but and end up with not so good pups as you wouldn't necessarily know what's behind that dog. Pups don't just take after the parents, they can take after grandparents, great grandparents or be a complete throwback to 5th or 6th generations so his the full family tree should be looked at.

Obviously this is more to do with producing show quality pups or at least trying to, the OP had a list of family/friends so she was looking for pet quality therefore does it really need so much homework


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2009)

shazalhasa said:


> I'm a first time breeder and have used my one of my own dogs for stud. I will say however that I've had numerous conversations with my bitches breeder before the actual mating and have constant contact with her and other breeder friends... it wasn't just done without any guidance.
> Regarding being a good match, it is true that your own dog might not be a good match but it's also true that the dog could be a perfect match.
> To be honest you could see something in the show ring that could be a perfect match but and end up with not so good pups as you wouldn't necessarily know what's behind that dog. Pups don't just take after the parents, they can take after grandparents, great grandparents or be a complete throwback to 5th or 6th generations so his the full family tree should be looked at.
> 
> Obviously this is more to do with producing show quality pups or at least trying to, the OP had a list of family/friends so she was looking for pet quality therefore does it really need so much homework


When Dundee says about being a perfect "match" i think she means about the "pedigree's" and "lines"..Because like you say the pupsters can take after grandparents/great grand parents ect..Hence why breeders research the pedigree as far back as the 10th generation before deciding if the stud can improve on the bitch and the bitch improve on the stud..with the intetion in mind to have a better quality pup that the parents!..

and as for your last bit...imo its is soo soo important to research where the male and female have come from before thinking of mating them..They could be related some where along the lines..or there could be some sort of health problem back through one line and you wouldnt want to add that to the lines of the bitch..

Does this all make sense LOL....It does to me sorry if it doesnt to others but this is how i see it.

OP-so glad to hear things are improving for you..


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> When Dundee says about being a perfect "match" i think she means about the "pedigree's" and "lines"..Because like you say the pupsters can take after grandparents/great grand parents ect..Hence why breeders research the pedigree as far back as the 10th generation before deciding if the stud can improve on the bitch and the bitch improve on the stud..with the intetion in mind to have a better quality pup that the parents!..


My point exactly, all of ours have been researched back a bit further than this, upto 12th generation so far and still researching 



DevilDogz said:


> and as for your last bit...imo its is soo soo important to research where the male and female have come from before thinking of mating them..They could be related some where along the lines..or there could be some sort of health problem back through one line and you wouldnt want to add that to the lines of the bitch..
> 
> Does this all make sense LOL....It does to me sorry if it doesnt to others but this is how i see it.


Yes is does need to be looked at but maybe not as much as 10 generations. Mind you, when you do go back through the generations it gets harder to find any pair that have absolutely no relations and by this I'm including things like 4th half cousin twice removed or whatever


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> I find this thread unbelievable
> The OP has come on here to warn other people that are considering breeding of the possible pit falls.
> I thought that that is what all you responsible breeders would like to inform prospective pet breeders about?
> And here you all are, insulting and being aggressive to the OP


Could not agree more. I am shocked at what has been said to the OP. They bravely came on and said "Look this is what happened" to try help others. These are the type of stories which really hit home with some and may make them consider not breeding. I thank the OP for their honest and open account and I'm very sorry you lost some pups.


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## cusochris (Jun 15, 2009)

I cant thank people for all the support we have received, including private messages of support. Hopefuly it has helped others to be aware that the outcome isn't allways so wonderfull as it appears from the stories that they do actually read. I can understand others not wanting to post if things have gone wrong like it did for us but if we had read an account such as the one we posted we certainly wouldn't have attempted it at all. Thanks also for the advice on using our heatpad and when they open ther eyes. After what happened we will be having Bonnie spayed after she has finished feeding them as the vet suggested that is the right time. We're also getting the dad neutered so we can leave the breeding to the experts. Can anyone tell me what age is best to allow the pups access to the run?. I understand that they will become more mobile once their eyes and ears are open but Bonnie obviously has no need to move them herself at the moment. Shes now a wonderful mum, very attentive and possessive and we even struggle sometimes to get her to go out to relieve herself. I will post up to date pic after weekend for anyone who wants to see.


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

cusochris said:


> I cant thank people for all the support we have received, including private messages of support. Hopefuly it has helped others to be aware that the outcome isn't allways so wonderfull as it appears from the stories that they do actually read. I can understand others not wanting to post if things have gone wrong like it did for us but if we had read an account such as the one we posted we certainly wouldn't have attempted it at all. Thanks also for the advice on using our heatpad and when they open ther eyes. After what happened we will be having Bonnie spayed after she has finished feeding them as the vet suggested that is the right time. We're also getting the dad neutered so we can leave the breeding to the experts. Can anyone tell me what age is best to allow the pups access to the run?. I understand that they will become more mobile once their eyes and ears are open but Bonnie obviously has no need to move them herself at the moment. Shes now a wonderful mum, very attentive and possessive and we even struggle sometimes to get her to go out to relieve herself. I will post up to date pic after weekend for anyone who wants to see.


Hi,
so pleased to hear things have worked out well for you.
It's all credit to you and your family that you have such a happy ending.

I don't know what set up you've got but we lift the front off the whelping box at about 4 weeks to allow them access to the run,but the run is inside and we cover the floor of the run with newspaer which is changed as it is soiled.
We also board off the run just high enough to keep pups in but low enough to let mum jump in and out so she can get some peace from them.

Would love to see some pics


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Jo P said:


> Let that be a lesson to everyone who thinks breeding is a good idea. My take on this is that if you cant afford to do the right thing then you shouldnt be breeding in the first place.





sallyanne said:


> I agree totally.
> 
> So why state below you didn't have that kind of money
> 
> ...





clueless said:


> I totally agree with Sal. I am sorry to hear you lost your Pups. I am also a trained nurse. Although I have been breeding on and off for years now I am always prepared for the worst.
> Money is tight for me at the moment but I have just had a litter and made sure I had funds in an account just incase.
> By researching most people imo have Money etc.... at hand just incase and Royal Canin Forumla these are major basics imo
> 
> I could have lost a litter of 6 as Bitch had Inertia and 1 pup stuck Cost me £800 to get them out alive





Jo P said:


> No I havent had any problems with breeding - I've never bred because I'm not in a position to do so properly - and clearly neither are you. I dont give a monkeys if you think it was a kick in the teeth - staying up 24/7 to keep those pups alive shouldnt be commended - it should be expected - you arranged for them to come into this world and to my way of thinking you are responsible for them until they leave it!
> What having a degree in adult nursing has to do with anything I dont know As for researching for weeks - well I know people who've researched for years before making the commitment to breed.
> As far as the vets - I can only go on what you said in your original post and that was that the vet wanted £90 plus £90 per pup - now you are saying he said you could have done no more than you were doing - so what was he going to charge you £90 plus £90 per pup for exactly???
> As for not coping if all the pups had died - well welcome to the world of breeding - I know people who've done everything right and lost the whole litter and their bitch. As Sally said what if your bitch had needed a c-section - she might have had one and still lost all her pups and her own life - thats the risk you take and you were more than willing to take it.
> Please dont start with the emotive language - there's nothing gets my back up more than anthropomorphism!!!


All posts above have made some excellent points.

OP, I am so sorry this happened to you, but let this be a lesson to others who are pondering breeding in the future. The most important things you can have as a new breeder are three:

Puppy Milk

An Experienced Vet on call with Emergency Funds just in case (the funds should be accessible with ease, usually I would think having a minimum of £1500 would suffice).

A Breed mentor. (possibly the owner of the stud you used).

I have sat in a beautiful living room and helped a bitch whelp 11 puppies, all of which had to be euthanized after birth due to genetic birth defects. Inside-out and see-through puppy syndromes, one had no legs, and another was born perfectly healthy looking, but still as a rock and I spent a hour trying to revive him. These pups were born at a rescue, the bitch had only been dropped off on our doorstep the previous week and had only took to me. I was the one who had to handle each pup as they came out since she wouldn't let anyone else near her. We had a licensed vet on hand in this situation.

People often think of breeding as a wonderful thing! Having playful, loving puppies around, then selling them off for a quick quid. The two best bits, aye?

Not always so, I'm afraid.

If you are responsible for putting two dogs together and pregnancy ensues, then you should take the responsibilities that come along with pregnancy and whelping or have the bitch spayed and the fetuses aborted. As one rescue in the USA says "If you can't feed em, don't breed em!" This also applies to vet care from the moment you find out your bitch has taken.

OP, again...very sorry for what happened to you and I wish you best of luck with your three pups


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

casandra said:


> All posts above have made some excellent points.
> 
> OP, I am so sorry this happened to you, but let this be a lesson to others who are pondering breeding in the future. The most important things you can have as a new breeder are three:
> 
> ...


I think this has all been said!! The OP knows that mistakes were made and that is why she has posted her experience so that it may help others, which was extrememly brave. We are now all offering help & advice and looking foward.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Molly's Mum said:


> I think this has all been said!! The OP knows that mistakes were made and that is why she has posted her experience so that it may help others, which was extrememly brave. We are now all offering help & advice and looking foward.


Obviously Casandra wanted to comment on the thread - jeeeeeez are you only allowed to post on this forum if you kowtow and agree with the 'in' crowd?


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2009)

Jo P said:


> Obviously Casandra wanted to comment on the thread - jeeeeeez are you only allowed to post on this forum if you kowtow and agree with the 'in' crowd?


I agree...Seems not..of course we are all upset for the OP..but all others have tried to do is state other problems breeders need to look out for and what they can do to help things if the problem happens to them...


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> I agree...Seems not..of course we are all upset for the OP..but all others have tried to do is state other problems breeders need to look out for and what they can do to help things if the problem happens to them...


Yep I agree!!!!
But how many times in the same thread do we have to read it!
So repetetive imo!!!


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

crazycrest said:


> What is your problem now?
> You used to post great post's...seem's not anymore!!!


I dont post good posts anymore eh? ......... would that be because they dont agree with what the 'in' crowd are saying. This thread is still open therefore it is still permitted for people to post whatever they feel on the subjest end of!! If you dont like to read my posts please feel free to press your ignore button


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Jo P said:


> I dont post good posts anymore eh? ......... would that be because they dont agree with what the 'in' crowd are saying. This thread is still open therefore it is still permitted for people to post whatever they feel on the subjest end of!! If you dont like to read my posts please feel free to press your ignore button


Sorry Jo P go read your wall


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2009)

Who are the "in" crowd?


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

With over 6000 posts you must spend plenty of time on here so I'm sure you'll be able to identify them for yourself


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

crazycrest said:


> Sorry Jo P go read your wall


:001_tt2::001_tt2: :wink5:


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2009)

Jo P said:


> With over 6000 posts you must spend plenty of time on here so I'm sure you'll be able to identify them for yourself


I've no idea


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

Jo P said:


> :001_tt2::001_tt2: :wink5:


Yep...trust me hey


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2009)

who cares who the "in" crowd is..we dis agree with some we agree with others...
Finding out who the "in" crowd is will not help any breeder planning on having a litter


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

Well I don't think I come into the "in" crowd, not that I know there is one!!

I, for one advocate everyones right to post whatever they want and whatever opinion that they have. I totally agree that the OP made huge mistakes and they have been pointed out numerous times, I would just hate that the OP didn't feel she could post on here; asking for advice without being constantly reminded.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Molly's Mum said:


> Well I don't think I come into the "in" crowd, not that I know there is one!!
> 
> I, for one advocate everyones right to post whatever they want and whatever opinion that they have. .


So why did you quote Casandras post and tell her that what she said had all been said before?? She wanted to comment on the thread and did so - good on her says I - the forum would be a sad place without conflicting opinions.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Molly's Mum said:


> I would just hate that the OP didn't feel she could post on here; asking for advice without being constantly reminded.


I agree! I am very sad that things went wrong for her but I am glad that she posted this. Subjects like this need to be seen and read by those considering breeding their pet, though a lot won't want to know about the risks.


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> and as for your last bit...imo its is soo soo important to research where the male and female have come from before thinking of mating them..They could be related some where along the lines..or there could be some sort of health problem back through one line and you wouldnt want to add that to the lines of the bitch..


Im a bit confused by this comment maybe im being thick but are you saying that if mum n dad are somewhat related back in generations its wrong to breed them ?


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2009)

mel said:


> Im a bit confused by this comment maybe im being thick but are you saying that if mum n dad are somewhat related back in generations its wrong to breed them ?


Depends how they are related and how far back there related..Alot of breeders belive in "line breeding" but you have to be careful to not "in breed"..


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

mel said:


> Im a bit confused by this comment maybe im being thick but are you saying that if mum n dad are somewhat related back in generations its wrong to breed them ?


DD makes a good point about that, sharing the same genes leads to inter breeding and inter breeding leads to health problems.


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## mel (Jul 19, 2008)

wanted to say 'lol ok' but wasnt long enuff soooooooooooo...

Lol Ok !


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## Jayzee (Aug 30, 2009)

I totally agree with cusochris, im new to this and have a litter on the way myself and i am inexperienced. Opinions are good from other people but its how we go about giving our opinions and knowing when someone is trying to do the right thing and is trying to make others aware and is hurting. All the same i have to say i was grateful for the thread as it has advised me of what could happen in my life within a fortnight. 
As cusochris said, there is nothing grates on my nerves more than someone who gives the impression that they know what they are talking about when they have absolutely NO experience, like myself with whelping, but with this attitude i have had alot of experience, so your sister this your friend that have bred dogs that isnt your experience it is theirs, its like someone who hasnt been through child birth trying to tell people what its like. As i said its not what you say its how you say it. 
From one inexperienced breeder to another cusochris i commend you for what you posted and it has opened my eyes to what could be in front of me.
I hope you have much joy from your remaining 3 pups and mum.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Whatever Jayzee - I'm not bothered one iota whether you think my post was justified or not - whether you think my opinion is valid - whether you think I have experience or not - all I do know is I am sick to the back teeth of people churning puppies out willy-nilly, when will it bloody end!!! NEVER is the answer cos people are just so selfish - and the biggest crock of crap is when they say well my girl is so lovely I just wanted a puppy from her - GROW UP FFS
I'm leaving this thread alone now - but have no fear if another one of a similar ilk pops up I will open my gob again - if just one person reads something I've written and decides not to bother I'll be truly satisfied. It's funny how it's always the people who are gonna breed themselves dive in these threads to say it's all ok - well it's NOT OK


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

Jo P said:


> Whatever Jayzee - I'm not bothered one iota whether you think my post was justified or not - whether you think my opinion is valid - whether you think I have experience or not - all I do know is I am sick to the back teeth of people churning puppies out willy-nilly, when will it bloody end!!! NEVER is the answer cos people are just so selfish - and the biggest crock of crap is when they say well my girl is so lovely I just wanted a puppy from her - GROW UP FFS
> I'm leaving this thread alone now - but have no fear if another one of a similar ilk pops up I will open my gob again - if just one person reads something I've written and decides not to bother I'll be truly satisfied. It's funny how it's always the people who are gonna breed themselves dive in these threads to say it's all ok - well it's NOT OK


Great post....

I totally agree; I am sick of hearing about people churning puppies out; without any thought to the circumstances. To be honest there is a very small minority of people on here that actually Health Test, research their dogs pedigree's, register their dogs, go to the time & effort to put together contracts and genuienly care about their bitch and don't just see is ££££ signs.
Those that do get shot down in flames when they question a member regarding their breeding ethics and are accused of bullying.
It's not all about cute puppies... it takes time, money, investment and a whole lot of heartache to produce healthy, true to breed, great temperment pups.
More & more we hear; "my bitch needs a litter before we spay her" or "she is just so cute", "why should I deprive my dogs of having a litter, it's natural". Then we have the others popping out 'lets make a new dog' breeds and charge some ridiculous price and call them a fancy designer name.
I for one am sick to death of reading about it. Yea I would help anybody if they were really in trouble, as sometimes the 'horse is already bolted' and accidents do happen but I will not condone it and I most certainly will not stand back & clap with somebody that is breeding intentionally knowing that their dogs are not health tested, registered or breeding within their breed.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

rona said:


> I find this thread unbelievable
> The OP has come on here to warn other people that are considering breeding of the possible pit falls.
> I thought that that is what all you responsible breeders would like to inform prospective pet breeders about?
> And here you all are, insulting and being aggressive to the OP


Agree entirely - I don't often look in on the dog forums because it is eight years since I have bred dogs, but blaming this lady for not taking puppies to the vet for a £1000 bill to be given a bottle and some formula and told to feed the pups every two hours - well, all I can say is, some people must have a great deal of money to throw around if you could afford to do that! Vets out of hours charges vary from the steep to the absolutely extortionate and if you are with one of those vets that delegates their out of hours work to one of these specialist emergency vets, they really can charge something in four figures almost as soon as you walk through the door - and expect you to pay on the spot too.

Losing five puppies out of the eight, it sounds to me as if there was something fundamentally wrong, possibly due to the birth trauma, and I very much doubt if there was much the OP could have done that she didn't do. Healthy newborns can survive for some time without being fed, surely, and are very willing to take food when it is offered.

Liz


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Jo P said:


> Whatever Jayzee - I'm not bothered one iota whether you think my post was justified or not - whether you think my opinion is valid - whether you think I have experience or not - all I do know is I am sick to the back teeth of people churning puppies out willy-nilly, when will it bloody end!!! NEVER is the answer cos people are just so selfish - and the biggest crock of crap is when they say well my girl is so lovely I just wanted a puppy from her - GROW UP FFS
> I'm leaving this thread alone now - but have no fear if another one of a similar ilk pops up I will open my gob again - if just one person reads something I've written and decides not to bother I'll be truly satisfied. It's funny how it's always the people who are gonna breed themselves dive in these threads to say it's all ok - well it's NOT OK





Molly's Mum said:


> Great post....
> 
> I totally agree; I am sick of hearing about people churning puppies out; without any thought to the circumstances. To be honest there is a very small minority of people on here that actually Health Test, research their dogs pedigree's, register their dogs, go to the time & effort to put together contracts and genuienly care about their bitch and don't just see is ££££ signs.
> Those that do get shot down in flames when they question a member regarding their breeding ethics and are accused of bullying.
> ...


<3

Agreed. I cannot stand people with no experience going through with pregnancies instead of just having their animals spayed in the first place.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

casandra said:


> I have sat in a beautiful living room and helped a bitch whelp 11 puppies, all of which had to be euthanized after birth due to genetic birth defects. Inside-out and see-through puppy syndromes, one had no legs, and another was born perfectly healthy looking, but still as a rock and I spent a hour trying to revive him.


That must have been absolutely horrible. However, 100% problems with a litter indicates something environmental - poison, in short - not genetic. Genetic problems would affect only some of the litter and you would see the same problem in all affected pups.

Liz


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

lizward said:


> Agree entirely - I don't often look in on the dog forums because it is eight years since I have bred dogs, but blaming this lady for not taking puppies to the vet for a £1000 bill to be given a bottle and some formula and told to feed the pups every two hours - well, all I can say is, some people must have a great deal of money to throw around if you could afford to do that! Vets out of hours charges vary from the steep to the absolutely extortionate and if you are with one of those vets that delegates their out of hours work to one of these specialist emergency vets, they really can charge something in four figures almost as soon as you walk through the door - and expect you to pay on the spot too.
> 
> Losing five puppies out of the eight, it sounds to me as if there was something fundamentally wrong, possibly due to the birth trauma, and I very much doubt if there was much the OP could have done that she didn't do. Healthy newborns can survive for some time without being fed, surely, and are very willing to take food when it is offered.
> 
> Liz


Cant believe I'm posting again but GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR You are entirely missing the point - the price of vets is not in question here - the fact of the matter is this lady was an inexperienced breeder who, again JUST MY OPINION, didnt know where to turn after witnessing an horrific birth so went to a professional for advice and then decide because they didnt have the money or the price was too high, havent figured out the truth of that one yet, chose not to go to the vet. If you are having a litter the very basics that you need include a good vet - if you dont want to pay the price then dont have the litter. I know this lady and her family worked to save the puppies but do you or they know if more of the puppies may have survived if they had gone to the vets - we'll never know the answer to that one will we cos they chose not to.
I'm out for deffo this time - please shoot me if I post again on this thread:blushing:


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

lizward said:


> That must have been absolutely horrible. However, 100% problems with a litter indicates something environmental - poison, in short - not genetic. Genetic problems would affect only some of the litter and you would see the same problem in all affected pups.
> 
> Liz


The lines those pups came from were severely inbred. We filed a court case against the owner and part of the evidence log included the pedigrees of all of the dogs the breeder owned. She was liable in full for the vet's fees, sufferage for the bitch (who is still living in rescue because she refuses to acclimate to a new home, even mine. I spent a full year trying to work with her to get over such a traumatic experience. Her care and living arrangements are funded from the sufferage the breeder had to pay us. All of her dogs were confiscated in the end.)

The vet found nothing abnormal in her blood panels.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

casandra said:


> The lines those pups came from were severely inbred. We filed a court case against the owner and part of the evidence log included the pedigrees of all of the dogs the breeder owned. She was liable in full for the vet's fees, sufferage for the bitch (who is still living in rescue because she refuses to acclimate to a new home, even mine. I spent a full year trying to work with her to get over such a traumatic experience. Her care and living arrangements are funded from the sufferage the breeder had to pay us. All of her dogs were confiscated in the end.)
> 
> The vet found nothing abnormal in her blood panels.


Guns at the ready!!! :001_tt2::001_tt2:

Casandra ((((((((HUGS)))))))) I dont know you but you sound like a gem xx


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

lizward said:


> Agree entirely - I don't often look in on the dog forums because it is eight years since I have bred dogs, but blaming this lady for not taking puppies to the vet for a £1000 bill to be given a bottle and some formula and told to feed the pups every two hours - well, all I can say is, some people must have a great deal of money to throw around if you could afford to do that! Vets out of hours charges vary from the steep to the absolutely extortionate and if you are with one of those vets that delegates their out of hours work to one of these specialist emergency vets, they really can charge something in four figures almost as soon as you walk through the door - and expect you to pay on the spot too.
> 
> Losing five puppies out of the eight, it sounds to me as if there was something fundamentally wrong, possibly due to the birth trauma, and I very much doubt if there was much the OP could have done that she didn't do. Healthy newborns can survive for some time without being fed, surely, and are very willing to take food when it is offered.
> 
> Liz


In a nutshell - you should not be breeding if you have not got money put away for unforeseen circumstances; an 'out of hours' C section would be around £1,000.00 and anybody who breeds a litter without that at the ready..... is irresponisble.


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## Suek (Apr 1, 2008)

Bang Bang you've just been knee-capped!!:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Jo P said:


> Cant believe I'm posting again but GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR You are entirely missing the point - the price of vets is not in question here - the fact of the matter is this lady was an inexperienced breeder who, again JUST MY OPINION, didnt know where to turn after witnessing an horrific birth so went to a professional for advice and then decide because they didnt have the money or the price was too high, havent figured out the truth of that one yet, chose not to go to the vet. If you are having a litter the very basics that you need include a good vet - if you dont want to pay the price then dont have the litter. I know this lady and her family worked to save the puppies but do you or they know if more of the puppies may have survived if they had gone to the vets - we'll never know the answer to that one will we cos they chose not to.
> I'm out for deffo this time - please shoot me if I post again on this thread:blushing:


The only thing I can think of that the vet could have done would have been to sedate the bitch, which would itself have put the pups in danger. Healthy pups given proper formula feeding would not have died in the time they did. This lady had a very nasty experience and I honestly don't think there was anything she could have done that would have made any difference once the pups were born.

Eight hours is a very long time to be in labour if we are talking about second stage labour, but somehow I don't think that is what is being described, the bitch would surely have given up long before that and been just laying there trembling, the owners would have known something was very wrong. Perhaps the OP might like to clarify that one, though in view of the treatment she has received here, I wouldn't blame her if she didn't want any more to do with us!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

casandra said:


> The lines those pups came from were severely inbred. We filed a court case against the owner and part of the evidence log included the pedigrees of all of the dogs the breeder owned. She was liable in full for the vet's fees, sufferage for the bitch (who is still living in rescue because she refuses to acclimate to a new home, even mine. I spent a full year trying to work with her to get over such a traumatic experience. Her care and living arrangements are funded from the sufferage the breeder had to pay us. All of her dogs were confiscated in the end.)
> 
> The vet found nothing abnormal in her blood panels.


How on earth you managed to get that sort of court judgement I cannot imagine - it sounds as if you would be a very useful person to have on one's side in the case of a dispute!

The fact remains that a whole deformed litter is not going to have a hereditary cause.

Liz


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> The fact remains that a whole deformed litter is not going to have a hereditary cause.


Untrue

If the genetic cause is dominant and it is found that one of the parents is homozygous for that gene then all puppies in that litter would be at risk of having that genetic condition and will be affected. The gene in that particular parent is perhaps expressing incomplete penetrance or variable expessitivity, so the dog itself is either mildly affected or is not affected at all.
It is also possible for a litter to be all boys or all girls so with a genetic/heriditary cause similarly then the risks may be 50:50 but that doesn't mean not all puppies in a litter will in fact have the condition.

So just because a large number or all puppies in a litter have a condition does not necessarily mean it is environmental. 
I think the environmental theory is an opinion that many breeders stick to as otherwise there may in fact be something genetically wrong with their dog and that is not what they want to hear.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Untrue
> 
> If the genetic cause is dominant and it is found that one of the parents is homozygous for that gene then all puppies in that litter would be at risk of having that genetic condition and will be affected. The gene in that particular parent is perhaps expressing incomplete penetrance or variable expessitivity, so the dog itself is either mildly affected or is not affected at all.
> It is also possible for a litter to be all boys or all girls so with a genetic/heriditary cause similarly then the risks may be 50:50 but that doesn't mean not all puppies in a litter will in fact have the condition.
> ...


Well, what hereditary conditions do you know of that are dominant and also have such a varied expression? The deformities described were no limbs, "inside out" (which I assume means intestines on the outside) and "see through pups" (not sure what that means). So you would need to find a dominant hereditary cause that could account for all those three deformities and yet could also cause no noticeable deformities at all. Now maybe there is such a gene out there, if so I will be very happy to take back what I have said, but at the moment it seems to me to be extremely unlikely which is why I am extremely surprised the court case was won. Not to mention the fact that, to prove liability, you would surely have to show that the breeder knew that one of the parents had this condition despite the fact that it apparently did not show.

Sorry but it seems extremely unlikely to me.

Liz


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

Molly's Mum said:


> Great post....
> 
> I totally agree; I am sick of hearing about people churning puppies out; without any thought to the circumstances. To be honest there is a very small minority of people on here that actually Health Test, research their dogs pedigree's, register their dogs, go to the time & effort to put together contracts and genuienly care about their bitch and don't just see is ££££ signs.
> Those that do get shot down in flames when they question a member regarding their breeding ethics and are accused of bullying.
> ...


I do agree with this but the method and delivery of a response can often make people defensive when it would be better to temper the tone of replies so as not to put people off reading the good advice and education that is obviously needed desperately


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

Jo P said:


> Whatever Jayzee - I'm not bothered one iota whether you think my post was justified or not - whether you think my opinion is valid - whether you think I have experience or not - all I do know is I am sick to the back teeth of people churning puppies out willy-nilly, when will it bloody end!!! NEVER is the answer cos people are just so selfish - and the biggest crock of crap is when they say well my girl is so lovely I just wanted a puppy from her - GROW UP FFS
> I'm leaving this thread alone now - but have no fear if another one of a similar ilk pops up I will open my gob again - if just one person reads something I've written and decides not to bother I'll be truly satisfied. It's funny how it's always the people who are gonna breed themselves dive in these threads to say it's all ok - well it's NOT OK





Molly's Mum said:


> Great post....
> 
> I totally agree; I am sick of hearing about people churning puppies out; without any thought to the circumstances. To be honest there is a very small minority of people on here that actually Health Test, research their dogs pedigree's, register their dogs, go to the time & effort to put together contracts and genuienly care about their bitch and don't just see is ££££ signs.
> Those that do get shot down in flames when they question a member regarding their breeding ethics and are accused of bullying.
> ...


Agreed.. and i have been told i am one of them bullies!


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Agreed.. and i have been told i am one of them bullies!


ow no i hope im not one of them as well


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

cav said:


> ow no i hope im not one of them as well


Well you wouldnt have been the best partner in crime if you wasnt..


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

rona said:


> I do agree with this but the method and delivery of a response can often make people defensive when it would be better to temper the tone of replies so as not to put people off reading the good advice and education that is obviously needed desperately


Hi Rona

As you are aware I have answered the OP questions as & when she has asked for help; even putting "what's done is done".

I don't think my post needs toning down; as it's accurate to my opinion. Yea education is most definitely needed regarding ethical breeding and that is what some of us are trying to advocate, but we appear to be shot down. If the forum is to have a breeding section then us as dog lovers should promote responisble breeding.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

Molly's Mum said:


> Hi Rona
> 
> As you are aware I have answered the OP questions as & when she has asked for help; even putting "what's done is done".
> 
> I don't think my post needs toning down; as it's accurate to my opinion. Yea education is most definitely needed regarding ethical breeding and that is what some of us are trying to advocate, but we appear to be shot down. If the forum is to have a breeding section then us as dog lovers should promote responisble breeding.


Sorry my post was a general statement and not directed at just you


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

rona said:


> Sorry my post was a general statement and not directed at just you


 ok honey no problem


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Well you wouldnt have been the best partner in crime if you wasnt..


hehe ok i see i have been missed


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

cav said:


> hehe ok i see i have been missed


lmfao: :yesnod: as always !!


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## r_neupert (Jun 22, 2009)

I think this is one of those threads that come up every week or so (probably more but i tend to keep my nose out), where someone posts something, and there is something that pops out which starts a giant debate, which generally involves some angry posts on the rights and wrongs of the subject, and then gets personal.

Just to add before i go any further, i do agree, i'm happy to leave breeding to professionals. I also do believe a thread like this could've been made sticky to this forum, had it not gone quite so personal. The OP is one of several thousand who's given breeding a go, there are more of her than there are of experienced professional breeders i bet. So her story is probably one that'll hit home to the mass rather than a story of a professional breeders litter.

I guess i can only liken it to school - the teacher who shouted and scared the crap into you never had as much success as the one who took the time to explain and give you examples.

I am not referring to anyone in particular here... i didn't really read names...


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## Jayzee (Aug 30, 2009)

My sentiments exactly Rona, its all about how you say it, not what is said, anyhow im a newbie on here and this thread has not put me off as ive had some really helpful advice and im made of stronger stuff, again advice is good when it is friendly and helpful but not condemnation, we all make mistakes in life and most of us enter into the unknown at some point, ie: childbirth, marriage, relationships and your dogs 1st litter of pups, but until we have experience under our belts we have no place to advise. 
Again thanks all of you who have helped me with your tit bits of friendly advice, all taken on board. X


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

lizward said:


> How on earth you managed to get that sort of court judgement I cannot imagine - it sounds as if you would be a very useful person to have on one's side in the case of a dispute!
> 
> The fact remains that a whole deformed litter is not going to have a hereditary cause.
> 
> Liz


Inside Out puppies are also known as having an "open stomach", where indeed the intestines and whatnot are basically falling through the navel.

See-through puppy syndrome is basically a condition wherein the puppy has little to no skin on its body. They were born with no fur, and you could see each muscle, vein and artery. I do not know the scientific term for this despite my efforts at research! (edit: facedesk...I just remembered what its called. Water/Walrus Puppy, they cannot be born naturally, so these were the pups that required c-section and did not survive)

all pups were boys if memory serves me correctly, and we were able to obtain the previous owner's details via the microchip in the bitch. We also contacted the vet who implanted the chip first and he just happened to be the current vet for the poor girl. Apparently, the bitch had just been taken to the vet a few days before she was dumped and that visit was when the owner was told of the abnormalities on the scan. Hence how we were able to sue for compensation for having taken the bitch in and all.

I do tend to be a bit of a know it all..some of the time..I really can't help it. I've been this way since I was a toddler. I'm currently on a Pre-Medicine route at University and I'm also working towards my Social Work masters. Law is fun for me 

Back onto topic though!

So many people take breeding so lightly. Some even think of it as a joke. I tell people with that sort of attitude to remember that they are playing God with the lives of these unborn puppies and they need to do right by them *BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!* I don't care if it puts me £15000 into debt, if any of my dogs needs it, They are having it, end of. I got my animals all with a promise that I would look out for their wellbeing, I would provide for them, I would take care of them. If I am bringing any animal into this world or just into my home, my promise holds fast.

I will probably start up a new thread today or tomorrow detailing how my breeding program *might possibly* get started. I don't have a foundation bitch yet, but I have gotten to that oh so magical part where I've finally chosen my breeders and I'm on an even more frustratingly magical waiting list! I am not actually planning to breed, I am however looking to become more knowledgable about my two breeds and I also want to really get stuck into showing! I'm ever so excited to get out in front of a crowd and show off my beautiful babies! Little secret...I am not a millionaire, but please...don't tell my dogs!!!

And don't call me Shirley!

ut:


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## Kye&Rio (Aug 31, 2009)

Man, you guys are gonna hate me in this breeding forum.

For starters, a simple spay procedure could have prevented those 5 pups from dying. They wouldn't have been there to die in the first place.

A spay would probably have been cheaper than your emergency c-section. 
A spay would have caused you so much less heartache.
A spay. It's so simple and you would have saved your dog alot of BS. But no, it's all about the money, isn't it?

A spay, when it comes down to it, is cheaper than any situation you could get yourself into with an entire female. Those poor babies, had to be created in ignorance, and they died that way too.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Well, that post is so blunt and very rude and not nice to the OP who is very upset. She knows all what you have said so why are you trying to make her feel worse? Does it make you feel better?


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## bucksmum (Jul 19, 2009)

Kye&Rio said:


> Man, you guys are gonna hate me in this breeding forum.
> 
> For starters, a simple spay procedure could have prevented those 5 pups from dying. They wouldn't have been there to die in the first place.
> 
> ...


Whatever your opinion,that was heartless


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

Kye&Rio said:


> Man, you guys are gonna hate me in this breeding forum.
> 
> For starters, a simple spay procedure could have prevented those 5 pups from dying. They wouldn't have been there to die in the first place.
> 
> ...


and i thought i was harsh in the breeding section..Thats un-called for..Be littling some one like that..the deed is done the bitch had puppies...If they wanted to breed there dog they wouldnt have her spayed would they..How do you even know this member breed for money..your post is heartless.


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## Kye&Rio (Aug 31, 2009)

How could I ever expect anyone to just plain and simply "get it"?

The fact of the matter is that all this could have been avoided with a spay. End of story.


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## Kye&Rio (Aug 31, 2009)

And if it's not about the money, what is it about then?


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

Kye&Rio said:


> How could I ever expect anyone to just plain and simply "get it"?
> 
> The fact of the matter is that all this could have been avoided with a spay. End of story.


The members wanted to breed her dog..you can not breed a dog that is spayed..She didnt have a litter be accident if she did then i could see where you was coming from..but this litter was intended! hence the girl wasnt spayed! end of..
I dont know why they bred thats neither here nor there..this is about advising others on the problems with breeding not why this members choose to breed.

Ohh and welcome to the forum i see you just joined.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Kye&Rio said:


> How could I ever expect anyone to just plain and simply "get it"?
> 
> The fact of the matter is that all this could have been avoided with a spay. End of story.


We're NOT thick you know so do not come on here and treat us as such!? :cursing: Have you read the entire post? as mentioned these puppies were wanted, it was not an accident.

You are so very ignorant, we all know spaying stops unwanted pups. ut: The OP does not need this pointing out.


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## Kye&Rio (Aug 31, 2009)

And there is a MAJOR problem with breeding!

IT SHOULD BE STOPPED!

How could the OP prevented those puppies from dying?

By not having them in the first place.

That's the best advice anyone could give.


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Kye&Rio said:


> How could I ever expect anyone to just plain and simply "get it"?
> 
> The fact of the matter is that all this could have been avoided with a spay. End of story.


I fail to see why anyone would participate in a forum to insult people who've come here looking for advice or to share their experiences to benefit others.

Just how it was supposed to add anything to the thread I don't know - there are plenty of other threads on the 'to breed or not breed topic' lets not mar this ladies tragic experience with harshness eh?


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

Kye&Rio said:


> And there is a MAJOR problem with breeding!
> 
> IT SHOULD BE STOPPED!
> 
> ...


We know spaying stops puppies..in this case the puppies were wanted..Things some times go wrong with breeding weather you do your best or not..I think you should be ashamed of your self..come on here and be little everyone..


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Kye&Rio said:


> And there is a MAJOR problem with breeding!
> 
> IT SHOULD BE STOPPED!
> 
> ...


Who the hell are YOU! to say whether people can breed or not, if you don't like people who breed then may i suggest you LEAVE the breeding section ASAP:cursing:

You already stated we won't like you so why come here and cause trouble?


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## Kye&Rio (Aug 31, 2009)

Oh, wait, I forgot to mention....

I fully support backyard breeders. All breeders. I love them. I love going to work every day to homeless, helpless puppies. I love watching them die. 

I also particularly enjoy coming to work to a bag of kittens hanging on the doorknob. Don't forget the puppies who were taped shut in a box and left at the dump, hairless from mange and sick with Parvo. And the ones that get sprayed in chemicals, cuz they just so happened to be tossed out on the road when a farmer is spraying.

It's great! Make more, I'll take care of them when no one else wants them.

You breed your dogs all you like, I will continue advocating the shelters, and battling those of you who INSIST on the slaughter.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Here we go again Breeding will never stop people always want puppies admitted better if they bought off people who did all the health tests etc but if we all stopped breeding now in 10 years time there would be no pups as they would be too old to breed from


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## Kye&Rio (Aug 31, 2009)

Biawhiska said:


> Who the hell are YOU! to say whether people can breed or not, if you don't like people who breed then may i suggest you LEAVE the breeding section ASAP:cursing:
> 
> You already stated we won't like you so why come here and cause trouble?


Who am I? My name is Madison, who the hell are you?

Who are YOU ALL to force your bitches through heat after heat, and then impregnate them?


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

I don't breed dogs, i don't have a dog but don't think you should come on here and slate people, it's out of order. So you work at a shelter, is that meant to mean you can talk to people you know NOTHING about like ****?

force them through birth etc, what like how nature designed?!


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

Kye&Rio said:


> Oh, wait, I forgot to mention....
> 
> I fully support backyard breeders. All breeders. I love them. I love going to work every day to homeless, helpless puppies. I love watching them die.
> 
> ...


  you are just shocking..when you said people arent going to like you..i belive you was right..what a way to enter the forum..


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

tashi said:


> Here we go again Breeding will never stop people always want puppies admitted better if they bought off people who did all the health tests etc but if we all stopped breeding now in 10 years time there would be no pups as they would be too old to breed from


Thanks hun, not sure where this new member has suddenly come from but we really don't need that sort of attitude


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Kye&Rio said:


> Who am I? My name is Madison, who the hell are you?
> 
> Who are YOU ALL to force your bitches through heat after heat, and then impregnate them?


See, you don't knw me, assuming arent you, i dont breed dogs. thanks i was just upset by what u wrote to the op who had a bad time.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

Molly's Mum said:


> Thanks hun, not sure where this new member has suddenly come from but we really don't need that sort of attitude


They have come from another forum..only joint here tonight!


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## Kye&Rio (Aug 31, 2009)

tashi said:


> Here we go again Breeding will never stop people always want puppies admitted better if they bought off people who did all the health tests etc but if we all stopped breeding now in 10 years time there would be no pups as they would be too old to breed from


Breeding ethically is one thing. Everyone wants puppies? Then take a trip to the shelter and save a life.

Breeding for the betterment of the breed. Breeding for the betterment of the breed. Breeding for the betterment of the breed.

Buy from responsible breeders at least. I have no problem with the ethical ones, they don't make any money off it anyways and it's a hell of a load of work. I congratulate the ones who do it right.


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

and yet again you persist in going round in circles on posts that you know are going to cause trouble.. 
Gotta admit guys, your all on a roll tonight, is it coz the kids are back at school???
Thread Closed!


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