# Your thoughts, please?



## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Here is a picture of Bess at yesterday's breed show. I'm the one kneeling mid picture.

In my view Bess is standing extremely well - one of the best she's done. She also moved extremely well - several people commented on it. (That's been a weak point to date).

She's still out of coat - although it's coming on and at least she doesn't look bald.

But from the start the judge didn't even look at her. I might as well have not been in the ring - and that was before he went over her.

I'm starting to wonder whether I should just give up. She is a small bitch - but there's no size in the breed standard. I've been told she has good bone structure and a nice frame.

Any comments from people?


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

I don't know anything about the breed but I have met her and she is a lovely girl. If those that know can give you all those positives then you know you have something to work with and shouldn't think of giving up if you enjoy showing. 
I didn't realise that you can ask the judge after judging finishes for help and advice but will be doing that from now on. Obviously if she is just not that judges cup of tea their comments are unlikely to be helpful and there is nothing you can do except avoid that judge next time. But there must be some fair and honest judges that will give you good constructive advice. 
What does her breeder say? and have you asked other exhibitors ? again some won't have an opinion worth listening to but there will be others that can help.

Anyway, you are not allowed to give up as then I wouldn't get to see you again


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

OK, I have studied that pic hard and will comment on what I see against the other dogs from the photo but need to find my Frank Kane book first to see what it is supposed to look like. Be back in a bit, I have started packing to move and can't remember where the 'dog stuff' box is.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

To me in that line up she looks very immature compared to some of the other bitches. Was she one of the youngest in the class she seems to be very much a baby still. I have the same with Tabitha she is 2 and just beggining to mature.

I would still persivere with her Zoe was also a small bitch but I stopped showing her as she had a crooked tooth. As you say there is no size requirements for the breed. A woman goes to our ringcraft has setters and her bitches are huge far to big in my opinion.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Emmastace said:


> I don't know anything about the breed but I have met her and she is a lovely girl. If those that know can give you all those positives then you know you have something to work with and shouldn't think of giving up if you enjoy showing.
> I didn't realise that you can ask the judge after judging finishes for help and advice but will be doing that from now on. Obviously if she is just not that judges cup of tea their comments are unlikely to be helpful and there is nothing you can do except avoid that judge next time. But there must be some fair and honest judges that will give you good constructive advice.
> What does her breeder say? and have you asked other exhibitors ? again some won't have an opinion worth listening to but there will be others that can help.
> 
> Anyway, you are not allowed to give up as then I wouldn't get to see you again


Her breeder doesn't show. I've met the breeder of her sire and dam and she begrudging said that Bess was 'actually a nice little bitch'. But I didn't get any encouragement as I'm obviously not showing under her kennel name.



Freyja said:


> To me in that line up she looks very immature compared to some of the other bitches. Was she one of the youngest in the class she seems to be very much a baby still. I have the same with Tabitha she is 2 and just beggining to mature.
> 
> I would still persivere with her Zoe was also a small bitch but I stopped showing her as she had a crooked tooth. As you say there is no size requirements for the breed. A woman goes to our ringcraft has setters and her bitches are huge far to big in my opinion.


Bess was in the yearling class - she's coming up to 20 months, so the other bitches were in her age range.

My concern is that in Feb, once she's two years old we won't have a chance as we'll be in adult classes. .


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

BessieDog said:


> Her breeder doesn't show. I've met the breeder of her sire and dam and she begrudging said that Bess was 'actually a nice little bitch'. But I didn't get any encouragement as I'm obviously not showing under her kennel name.
> 
> Bess was in the yearling class - she's coming up to 20 months, so the other bitches were in her age range.
> 
> My concern is that in Feb, once she's two years old we won't have a chance as we'll be in adult classes. .


By the time she is 2 she may well have matured in body and coat. Unfortunately dogs don't all mature at the time rate my whippet Owen was very late maturing he was 4 before he started to do anything at champ shows yet other whippets may well win CC's before they are even out of puppy as they look so mature.

If she's 20 months she could still well have been one of the youngest in the class some of those other bitches could have been just about to go out of yearling.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Freyja said:


> By the time she is 2 she may well have matured in body and coat. Unfortunately dogs don't all mature at the time rate my whippet Owen was very late maturing he was 4 before he started to do anything at champ shows yet other whippets may well win CC's before they are even out of puppy as they look so mature.
> 
> If she's 20 months she could still well have been one of the youngest in the class some of those other bitches could have been just about to go out of yearling.


I'm probably being impatient. . Thanks Freyja!


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

At whippet shows we sometimes have to stand in numerical order so if you have to do it too then this wont help but if not look at the other bitches waiting to go into the ring. Try not to stand next to any bitch that looks a lot more mature as that will make her look even more puppyish. Try to get with others that are a little immature still then she wont look out so out of place.

In the photo the 3 dogs after you look quite mature wereas the 2 from the front looks a little more immature.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

imo I would say she is very immature at the moment. was the class mixed sexed?


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Can someone explain the immature bit to me, or at least why that would make a difference in a show ring. Obviously I understand that dogs mature at different rates, but don't judges take that into consideration in the younger classes? I can understand it being a problem in adult classes.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

dexter said:


> imo I would say she is very immature at the moment. was the class mixed sexed?


No - all bitches!

But why shouldn't she be immature in a yearling class?


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Emmastace said:


> Can someone explain the immature bit to me, or at least why that would make a difference in a show ring. Obviously I understand that dogs mature at different rates, but don't judges take that into consideration in the younger classes? I can understand it being a problem in adult classes.


Whoops - I didn't read your post so we asked the same question!


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

BessieDog said:


> Whoops - I didn't read your post so we asked the same question!


He he ...great minds and all that


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

I find that even in puppy classes, the judge will, in most cases, place the most mature looking dogs. They'll have better muscle, better bone, more coat, more developed heads. It doesn't exactly make much sense (because why be in a puppy class if you're not a puppy?), but especially in Setters where it's all about the coat, it always seems to be the case.

You're at a disadvantage every time you move up an age grade, because your dog is then automatically at the bottom of the class, maturity wise. It's partly why we took a break for a few months with Henry, because he looks _such_ a baby compared to the other Juniors. Now since June he's got a better head, far more coat and much more muscle, so I'm hopeful for our next couple of shows. Maybe the winter chill will help Bess get her coat back.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Emmastace said:


> Can someone explain the immature bit to me, or at least why that would make a difference in a show ring. Obviously I understand that dogs mature at different rates, but don't judges take that into consideration in the younger classes?


I've often wondered this as well. I was shocked at Leeds champ show by how mature a lot of the whippets in the puppy classes looked, our two year old wouldn't have looked out of place next to some of them.

It's a bit off putting really as I know Wybie (who is maturing very, very slowly) isn't going to get more than glanced at until well into adult classes when he's finally caught up with all the dogs who look grown up even as puppies.

This is part of the reason why we're giving showing a break for the foreseeable future. Obviously we don't do it just to win but I'm not sure we enjoy it enough to keep at it when we don't have a chance of being competitive.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> I've often wondered this as well. I was shocked at Leeds champ show by how mature a lot of the whippets in the puppy classes looked, our two year old wouldn't have looked out of place next to some of them.
> 
> It's a bit off putting really as I know Wybie (who is maturing very, very slowly) isn't going to get more than glanced at until well into adult classes when he's finally caught up with all the dogs who look grown up even as puppies.
> 
> This is part of the reason why we're giving showing a break for the foreseeable future. Obviously we don't do it just to win but I'm not sure we enjoy it enough to keep at it when we don't have a chance of being competitive.


And that, I think, is what this thread is about.

I've sort of made my mind up to carry on until Feb when she is two, but then to sit back and take stock.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I think it's up to you on if you take a break while she matures or if you carry on in the mean time. If it were me, I might stick to local open shows to keep up the training, but I wouldn't spend a lot of money and time showing a dog which isn't competitive at the minute (not saying she doesn't look competitive from the pic, I don't know anything about the breed, just a general statement). But that's just my opinion. Its up to you of course! 



Emmastace said:


> Can someone explain the immature bit to me, or at least why that would make a difference in a show ring. Obviously I understand that dogs mature at different rates, but don't judges take that into consideration in the younger classes? I can understand it being a problem in adult classes.


I think it's down to the judge really, how much they will take age into consideration. They are supposed to judge the dogs on what they are today, not on what they think they will be tomorrow.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Dober said:


> I think it's down to the judge really, how much they will take age into consideration. They are supposed to judge the dogs on what they are today, not on what they think they will be tomorrow.


Much as I had to admit it, you're absolutely right. And that's where bitches in my breed are at a disadvantage. They all drop their coats at some point (although perhaps not as dramatically as Bess), and the judge isn't to know whether they've just had a moult and the coat will reappear, or whether they don't have any feathering.

I'm going to get a dog next time!


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

BessieDog said:


> Much as I had to admit it, you're absolutely right. And that's where bitches in my breed are at a disadvantage. They all drop their coats at some point (although perhaps not as dramatically as Bess), and the judge isn't to know whether they've just had a moult and the coat will reappear, or whether they don't have any feathering.
> 
> I'm going to get a dog next time!


I think it's down to the judge with how much importance they put on correct coat too, ive seen some judges say that the coat is like icing on a cake (the cake has to be with icing first!) whereas others put much more importance on the coat if the coat is an integral part of the dog being able to do its job.

If there is a class of 10 great dogs, and the judge is splitting hairs then cost could be a big part.

But what do I know anyway, I don't have any hairies to worry about :blush:


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Dober said:


> I think it's down to the judge with how much importance they put on correct coat too, ive seen some judges say that the coat is like icing on a cake (the cake has to be with icing first!) whereas others put much more importance on the coat if the coat is an integral part of the dog being able to do its job.
> 
> If there is a class of 10 great dogs, and the judge is splitting hairs then cost could be a big part.
> 
> But what do I know anyway, I don't have any hairies to worry about :blush:


I got the wrong breed! :crying:


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Having a coated breed myself I know what you are going through, I've had a good look at the photo, Bess looks well constructed with a well defined wither and good topline, her angulations look good too. She does'nt look too small ( compare her height to the dog in front of her ) but she does look immature and very lacking in coat and furnishings at the moment. Also you are holding her head and neck too far back thus spoiling the flow of her body line ....look at the dog behind her to see the difference this makes to the outline .....it's a small thing but it can make a difference 

I would show her in yearling until she's two then pull her out of Champ shows for a while while she matures .....the good news is that what she lacks is coat and body , both of which will come in time , yep I know it's frustrating but it's better that than having a construction fault that will never come right .

Try giving her Yumega oil to encourage her coat to come through quicker but otherwise it's just a waiting game, she's a super youngster with lots of promise so just do the Open shows for a while to keep up her and your showing skills :thumbup:


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Bijou said:


> Having a coated breed myself I know what you are going through, I've had a good look at the photo, Bess looks well constructed with a well defined wither and good topline, her angulations look good too. She does'nt look too small ( compare her height to the dog in front of her ) but she does look immature and very lacking in coat and furnishings at the moment. Also you are holding her head and neck too far back thus spoiling the flow of her body line ....look at the dog behind her to see the difference this makes to the outline .....it's a small thing but it can make a difference
> 
> I would show her in yearling until she's two then pull her out of Champ shows for a while while she matures .....the good news is that what she lacks is coat and body , both of which will come in time , yep I know it's frustrating but it's better that than having a construction fault that will never come right .
> 
> Try giving her Yumega oil to encourage her coat to come through quicker but otherwise it's just a waiting game, she's a super youngster with lots of promise so just do the Open shows for a while to keep up her and your showing skills :thumbup:


Thank you for your encouraging comments! :thumbup:


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