# Good news GCCF Council meeting Vaccination Rule Change



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Yesterday, Council amended the rule on vaccination of kittens although fortunately rescue cats have been excluded from the rule. Now anybody buying a GCCF registered kitten must receive details of a full course completed before they take the kitten home.

*Section 1:10bii

All cats and kittens must be fully vaccinated against infectious enteritis (FPV), FHV and FCV ('cat flu') at least one week prior to sale and/or leaving for a new home.

Note: In the event of an emergency that requires a cat or kitten to be re-homed that is not fully vaccinated the GCCF office should be contacted as soon as possible and a dispensation applied for.*


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Good news indeed. The get out/loop hole via the signed agreement/understanding that the kitten was not vaccinated at the time of sale was frankly ridiculous.

Edited to add.... Glad there was no change to the 13 day rule either. QOTN... Do you know if there was any outcome on the 'queens to be microchipped by at latest the time of their first litter' please?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Apparently it was just a 'short discussion' led by Steve Crow who emphasised the benefits should a queen escape (I can remember a few occasions that has happened with a girl at stud) and also as an aid to the professionalism of breeders' records. Speakers spoke against who were opposed to microchipping itself and some who were opposed to regulation by GCCF, so no change there then.

(I experienced some of the prejudice against microchipping when I was trying to get my breeds to have a mandatory test for PRA in order to avoid homozygous cats being born.)


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Ah thank you!

I'm not against microchipping in any way but I was unclear of the rationale behind it. I'd wondered if it could be something to do with monitoring the legitimacy of breeding related matters (for want of a better way to describe but I think you will know what I mean!) but couldn't figure the actual logistics of that.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> Ah thank you!
> I'm not against microchipping in any way but I was unclear of the rationale behind it. I'd wondered if it could be something to do with monitoring the legitimacy of breeding related matters (for want of a better way to describe but I think you will know what I mean!) but couldn't figure the actual logistics of that.


I suspect it will come in due course. The Board now has the option to override BACs if they refuse to require tests for diseases that impact the welfare of cats, although I see no sign they are exercising those powers. In that event, at least the cats clearing a line would have to be microchipped.

Studs already have to be microchipped so I think the protesters are simply mounting a last vain protest.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I really don't understand with why some people think it's so wrong to microchip a cat or kitten.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Have GCCF stated what action can be taken against the breeders who don't provide a full course of vaccination? I very much hope it's severe consequences and is enough to put those unscrupulous breeders off breeding, or make them take care of their kittens more.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I don't know what sort of penalty they could/would impose but least it would be a clear cut breach and not, you have to believe, be something that need go through the laborious (and expensive for the owner) complaints procedure.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

QOTN said:


> I suspect it will come in due course. The Board now has the option to override BACs if they refuse to require tests for diseases that impact the welfare of cats Q]


I'm not even sure that in years to come we will have BAC's judging by the minutes of the review group from the end of January.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> I don't know what sort of penalty they could/would impose but least it would be a clear cut breach and not, you have to believe, be something that need go through the laborious (and expensive for the owner) complaints procedure.


And it removes the possibility for the unscrupulous to hoodwink the unwary.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I could never fathom the daft (re the vaccination of kittens) '.... unless the new owner signs, etc etc' clause. It actually just gave breeders the ability to legitimately not vaccinate kittens AT all!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> I could never fathom the daft (re the vaccination of kittens) '.... unless the new owner signs, etc etc' clause. It actually just gave breeders the ability to legitimately not vaccinate kittens AT all!


There's one breeder who I can think of right off who didn't vaccinate and rehomes kittens at 9 weeks, but they also forge pedigrees and have no regard for the type of kitten they're producing. Unfortunately because they're GCCF registered, and their cats are all active, there was nothing that could be done, and owners were buying these kittens thinking they were going to a good breeder because their kitten was registered and they had a contract. Sadly many of these kittens were unsocialised and often ill. Hopefully this ruling forces 'breeders' like this out, or forces them into better breeding practices.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> Have GCCF stated what action can be taken against the breeders who don't provide a full course of vaccination? I very much hope it's severe consequences and is enough to put those unscrupulous breeders off breeding, or make them take care of their kittens more.


As far as I know there is no plan to change the fixed penalty system already in place for breaking the previous rule. (I have removed the reference to agreement in writing.)

*Selling unvaccinated kittens

Section 1, rule 10b ii. All kittens must be fully vaccinated against infectious enteritis (FPV), FHV and FCV ("cat Flu") 

Fixed penalties amended November 2017 Page 5 of 28 19/01/2018

Penalty: Fine £100 suspension until fine paid. A second breach of this rule within three years will result in double the penalty, a third breach, three times the penalty etc*


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Thanks @QOTN


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I'm glad this is now an actual rule.


QOTN said:


> I experienced some of the prejudice against microchipping when I was trying to get my breeds to have a mandatory test for PRA in order to avoid homozygous cats being born.


Ho my goodness yes! I've seen this too. That and an unwillingness to do the tests anyway 'because of the cost' ...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Will these fixed penalties only apply if the kittens are registered prior to being sold?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> Will these fixed penalties only apply if the kittens are registered prior to being sold?


I'm guessing so unless the breeder is on the scheme.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Doesn't really change anything then.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

And why is it a relief that rescue kittens are excluded? Surely it's as important for them as it is for pedigrees!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

carly87 said:


> And why is it a relief that rescue kittens are excluded? Surely it's as important for them as it is for pedigrees!


Rescue kittens surely are nothing to do with the GCCF?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> Rescue kittens surely are nothing to do with the GCCF?


Any unregistered kittens are surely nothing to do with the GCCF. The GCCF is just a limited company and only holds any sway over those who choose to play by its rules.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

So why were they even mentioned?
<snip> Yesterday, Council amended the rule on vaccination of kittens although fortunately rescue cats have been excluded from the rule. <snip>
Why should we be happy about this? Even if it's a rescue pedigree and thus potentially the GCCF's business if it's registered with them and taken on by a club or good hearted breeder, why shouldn't they also be required to have a full vaccination panel? They are no less important in my eyes.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

carly87 said:


> And why is it a relief that rescue kittens are excluded? Surely it's as important for them as it is for pedigrees!


Rescue cats. The word cats was added to this change to the ruling and I was worried it may apply to rescue cats. Somebody must have brought it up at the meeting because Jen Lacey's report stated it did not apply to rescue cats.

Most if not all pedigree cats have had an initial course of vaccinations but their vaccination record may not be available. Some rescues automatically have an initial course in that case. I do not think that is a good idea for the cat or the rescue funds so I am glad the rule does not apply to rescue cats.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

QOTN said:


> Rescue cats. The word cats was added to this change to the ruling and I was worried it may apply to rescue cats. Somebody must have brought it up at the meeting because Jen Lacey's report stated it did not apply to rescue cats.


This can only be of interest to breed specific rescue organisations and even then only to those which are part of breed clubs within the GCCF surely. The vast majority of rescue cats are not registered, or at least not known to be registered and they're rehomed by individuals or organisations with no connection to the GCCF. GCCF rules are only of interest to those who wish to take part in GCCF run events or use GCCF registration facilities - a tiny proportion of cat owners or rescue centres.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Even there I don't like it. Sure, it's cheaper for clubs to rehome a cat without vaccinating it first, but that's not right by the cat or the new owners. If you wouldn't do it with a kitten, you shouldn't do it with an older cat, rescued or otherwise. Any vet worth their salt will also know that the initial 2 shot coarse is to avoid any linguering immunity given by mum's milk, so would know that is not necessary in any older cat, therefore only the standard booster would be needed. If I had a vet telling me differently, I would be seriously worried about their underpinning knowledge. If a rescue can't or won't give a single vaccination to a cat, then perhaps it shouldn't be rescuing, particularly if their backgrounds are unknown. Most pedigree rescues charge a rehoming fee, so that should cover the vaccinations. Yes, I know funds are still limited, but tell me a rescue, a genuine small one who does things properly, who's rolling in cash and we could all go to them and ask them how it's done. Rescue cats deserve the same as rescue kittens.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

carly87 said:


> Rescue cats deserve the same as rescue kittens.


Of course they do but what's that got to do with the GCCF?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Do you mean pedigree rescues done through the breed clubs? If so, most of them are direct home to home, club rescues can't afford to foot the bill for vaccinations.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Many pedigree rescued cats have been well cared for and the chances are they have been vaccinated at least the required first vaccination course and the booster at 1 year old. The worry about the GCCF rule was because we often know who bred these cats but have no paperwork although they are definitely registered.

I really don't know if Carly 87 has any experience at all in pedigree rescue. Perhaps it is different in the Persian fraternity but I made £618 last year from the stall plus plenty of orders from friends and lovely cat chat people. That is peanuts compared with the cost of rescue. We could not do what we do without one of our very generous members who makes regular large donations into the Distressed Cats Fund.

As I said before the advice is not to over vaccinate cats so that is another very good reason not to automatically give another course. I have in the past done a titre test on a moggy who was handed in as a Havana because we knew nothing about him and he was zero. Naturally he had a course of vaccinations before being rehomed.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

QOTN said:


> Yesterday, Council amended the rule on vaccination of kittens although fortunately rescue cats have been excluded from the rule. Now anybody buying a GCCF registered kitten must receive details of a full course completed before they take the kitten home.
> 
> *Section 1:10bii
> 
> ...


Sorry if I'm being a bit thick here but how will the GCCF know if the kittens have left earlier than a week after their vaccinations? Will a buyer have to complain?


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> Ah thank you!
> 
> I'm not against microchipping in any way but I was unclear of the rationale behind it. I'd wondered if it could be something to do with monitoring the legitimacy of breeding related matters (for want of a better way to describe but I think you will know what I mean!) but couldn't figure the actual logistics of that.


FIFe require all breeding cats to be microchipped and the microchip number to validated by vet but it's apparently to reduce overbreeding, so dams can be formally identified if required and all kittens from a FIFe Queen have to be registered. Whilst GCCF are not requiring all kittens born to be registered and (allowing non GCCF registered studs so I don't have to import kittens from my GCCF dam into GCCF) then beyond the sensibility of having your cat microchipped I am not sure if the rationale either.

From a rescue point of view when I volunteered for CPL, we would not have had enough fosterers to keep kittens until 13 weeks. Pedigree rescues might not have enough fosters or spaces to keep the cats for the full course of two vaccines and a week after. These cats may also be better going to their new home rather than in a multicat household.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Oops double post sorry


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

lillytheunicorn said:


> Whilst GCCF are not requiring all kittens born to be registered and (allowing non GCCF registered studs so I don't have to import kittens from my GCCF dam into GCCF) then beyond the sensibility of having your cat microchipped I am not sure if the rationale either.


Bit confused on this bit? GCCF don't allow the use of non-GCCF studs.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> Bit confused on this bit? GCCF don't allow the use of non-GCCF studs.


Personal whinge, that GCCF won't allow you to register kittens from a non GCCF registered stud despite being suitable to be on the full register.

Personally it means I have got to import my kittens into GCCF rather than as a litter registration. As the Stud cats I have access to and wish to use are FIFe not GCCF registered. If they were to make every litter from a queen be registered with GCCF I would have to leave GCCF as I would end registering litters of non breeds.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

lillytheunicorn said:


> Personal whinge, that GCCF won't allow you to register kittens from a non GCCF registered stud despite being suitable to be on the full register.
> 
> Personally it means I have got to import my kittens into GCCF rather than as a litter registration. As the Stud cats I have access to and wish to use are FIFe not GCCF registered. If they were to make every litter from a queen be registered with GCCF I would have to leave GCCF as I would end registering litters of non breeds.


Ah yes, I'm with you. Personally I prefer that, I don't like that TICA and FIFe let any stud be used. I am happy to travel for stuf though, and am central so have plenty of options.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I don’t know about TICA but with FIFe the stud has to meet the same breed registration policy as a cat who would be imported in and then used.

My breed has more non GCCF Cats and the gene pool Is wide. I travel a good distance anyway my nearest stud is GCCF but their type would not suit mine.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It has everything to do with the GCCF Havoc, if we're talking about pedigree rescues, and it's the GCCF's ruling.

QOTN, I am well aware of the costs of rescuing, but if you can't afford to do it properly, and this is the rhetorical you just in case we think this is another personal attack, then it is my opinion that rescuing should be left to those who can afford to do it. If it's a direct home to home rescue then the new owners should be made aware that the cat must come vaccinated, and if they don't, well, it's no skin off the rescue's nose, as, being a direct home to home, the complaint would be with the pre-existing owner, not the rescue, so no sleep lost there either.

LTU, TICA also requires that the stud meets the reg policy in order to be used on a litter that is to be registered as a breed in TICA, if he himself does not belong. Much more sensibl e approach for keeping gene pools nice and wide open and accessible, whilst maintaining breed and registration standards, so no surprise really that GCCF won't allow it.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

carly87 said:


> QOTN, I am well aware of the costs of rescuing, but if you can't afford to do it properly, and this is the rhetorical you just in case we think this is another personal attack, then it is my opinion that rescuing should be left to those who can afford to do it.


Over vaccinating is not rescuing 'properly.'

The people who have the temperament and dedication to rescue are few and far between and spend all their time looking after the cats. It is only fair that clubs whose members may have reason to be thankful to them at some point, should raise funds to enable them to help more cats. As welfare officer I take that part of our club's function very seriously.

One rescue we help has had huge bills from a series of cats dumped by a breeder who wanted new 'stock.' He was not, I hasten to add, a member of our club. He is the worst but I am afraid not the only one.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I genuinely do appreciate all of that, and agree that over-vaccinating is not the answer either. However, there is no proof that you are over-vaccinating unless you have the vaccination records, which you yourself said was missing on many occasions. I guess I would have liked them to say that rescue cats needed vaccinating too, with a clause perhaps that if a titre test showed they were current, they didn't need it. Then everyone's happy and clubs are still expected to do the right thing by the cat, either vaccinate or test and confirm all's well.


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