# Blood Group Incompability



## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I may have a problem.

I had my girl blood grouped and no one seems to understand the result, i've even spoken to another company offering this service and they weren't sure.

I am having her re-grouped asap (the swab has been sent out to me).

What do i do if she turns out to be incompatible with the stud she was mated to, she is currently 5 weeks pregnant?

I know the kittens can fade and die if they suckle from the mothers colostrum but i've heard this can be prevented by keeping them away from mum for the 1st 24 hours? Is it just a caseof not letting them suckle from her, or do you have to keep them completely separate?


I know everything might turn out to be fine but i want to be prepared for the worst?

Anyone have any experience of this?


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Alison what group is the dad?

If he is B then you have no problems whether your Queen is A, A carrying b or B. If he is A and your Queen is B then you will have a blood incompatibility issue.......

What is the result they gave you?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Soupie said:


> Alison what group is the dad?
> 
> If he is B then you have no problems whether your Queen is A, A carrying b or B. If he is A and your Queen is B then you will have a blood incompatibility issue.......
> 
> What is the result they gave you?


as above


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

as above aswell lol!


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Don't panic - even if your girl is group B you can still have healthy kittens if the first 24 hours after birth are carefully managed. 

I was told by a breeder to wait for 18 hours before letting the kittens suckle and hand feed during that time (in the end I decided to use a group B stud, so it didn't matter). But perhaps 24 hours is safer. I believe you need to separate them but keep them close to each other, so mum can still see and hear them...newborn kittens make a beeline for the nipple and are surprisingly quick! 

I'm sure an experienced breeder on here can advise you. Where did you get the testing done?


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Soupie said:


> Alison what group is the dad?
> 
> If he is B then you have no problems whether your Queen is A, A carrying b or B. If he is A and your Queen is B then you will have a blood incompatibility issue.......
> 
> What is the result they gave you?


Is this 100% correct?

According to:

Dr. Addie - Feline Blood Groups



> Queens with blood group A have less anti-type B antibody than blood group B queens have anti-group A antibody, so the type B kittens of this mating might survive. However, if the mating is repeated, the queen will build up anti-B antibody and eventually one fourth of her kittens could die of neonatal isoerythrolysis.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> Is this 100% correct?
> 
> According to:
> 
> Dr. Addie - Feline Blood Groups


agreed but i thought we were talking about a first mating?


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

billyboysmammy said:


> agreed but i thought we were talking about a first mating?


True. Hopefully it will be fine.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

The stud is type A.

I was told by the breeder that my girl was likely to be A but the test results are as follows;

Test result: b / non -b
Interpretation: b / non -b = type A or type AB (carrier of b)

That test was done by the animal DNA laboratory in Australia, i am now having her re-tested by Langford Vets.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Alison, may I ask why you re-tested your girl? Isn't the result quite clearly showing that she's an A carrying b? Labs do (I think, anyway) report blood group results in a very confusing format but I've never had a problem with animalsdna in Aussie and my cats' results have, to the best of my knowlecdge, always been 100% reliable.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I feel very stupid!!

I've discussed this result with several people and no one seems to know!! Have they just been having me on? 
I've even shown it to the stud owner and said she hadn't a clue (knowing her stud is type A) I truly hope she wasn't withholding what she knew just so i'd use her stud and take my cash 

Are you totally sure that she's A carrying b?

I take it this means that at least some of her kittens are at risk?


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Hi Alison,

No they are not at risk if your queen is Ab - they would only be at risk if your queen was group B.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

That's the best news!


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Alison it would appear she is A carrying B so no worries on the mating! I get all my dnas done by animals dna - if you like you can email the result sheet to me at [email protected] and I'll have a look.

AB which is different from A carrying B cannot be distinguished from A on DNA results only a blood test which is why the results says A or AB. AB is treated as A for mating purposes......


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

its such a mind field, when i asked my vets about blood grouping they had never heard of it, the vet said im the first person in his 10years of being a vet to ask about it!


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Yeah i asked my vet too and got the same result 

Sadly i can't mail you it as i no longer have the computer one, just the paper result :frown:

I have emailed them to ask for a definitive result.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I can now confirm that my girl is Type A or Type AB. The relief is huge!!

Thanks to gskinner123 for pointing this out, i can be a bit slow haha 

I can now look forward to the litter without worrying that i could lose them because of the incompatibility issues. :thumbup:


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

As Ab is classed as A usually for simplicity. 
Is it certain that the boy is A as opposed to Ab? Would the stud owner know this?
If he is Ab as opposed to a true A then one quarter of kittens will be bb, classed as B. 
What Dr Addie says about this type of mating, i.e. - Ab x Ab


> In the second table both blood group A cats are carriers of the gene for blood group B. As you can see, one quarter of the kittens born to this pair will be blood group B (blue shaded box). Queens with blood group A have less anti-type B antibody than blood group B queens have anti-group A antibody, so the *type B kittens of this mating might survive*. However, if the mating is repeated, the queen will build up anti-B antibody and eventually one fourth of her kittens could die of neonatal isoerythrolysis.


I am a bit concerned about her phrasing, "type B kittens of this mating *might* survive" the use of the word "might" would ring alarm bells with me. It may be worthwhile speaking to the stud owner to make sure he is really A as opposed to Ab. I would ask to look at his test results, not just take her word for it.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> As Ab is classed as A usually for simplicity.
> Is it certain that the boy is A as opposed to Ab? Would the stud owner know this?
> If he is Ab as opposed to a true A then one quarter of kittens will be bb, classed as B.
> What Dr Addie says about this type of mating, i.e. - Ab x Ab
> ...


To add to this, a lot of people get VERY confused about the difference between AB & Ab. If you do ask if he is Ab, try to point out that you DO mean Ab & NOT AB. If they are confused by blood types they may get confused as to the two being different.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> To add to this, a lot of people get VERY confused about the difference between AB & Ab. If you do ask if he is Ab, try to point out that you DO mean Ab & NOT AB. If they are confused by blood types they may get confused as to the two being different.


Yes that is also a good point.


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> To add to this, a lot of people get VERY confused about the difference between AB & Ab. If you do ask if he is Ab, try to point out that you DO mean Ab & NOT AB. If they are confused by blood types they may get confused as to the two being different.


What is the different between Ab and AB?


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Ab is A carrying b, AB is a rare blood type of its' own.

Unfortunetely i asked and the stud IS in fact Ab!! This means that 25% of my angels are at risk so i'm going to have to hand feed for the 16 hours (i'd rather make it 24.

I'm rather upset right now i was discussing it with my OH and burst into tears at the thought of losing them, they aren't even here yet!!


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

alisondalziel said:


> Ab is A carrying b, AB is a rare blood type of its' own.
> 
> Unfortunetely i asked and the stud IS in fact Ab!! This means that 25% of my angels are at risk so i'm going to have to hand feed for the 16 hours (i'd rather make it 24.
> 
> I'm rather upset right now i was discussing it with my OH and burst into tears at the thought of losing them, they aren't even here yet!!


Thanks! I understand the difference. What I meant to ask is are there any negative consequences of using an AB stud with an A or a B queen? 

And Alison, don't get upset. You're in a better position now you know what to expect. Keep your chin up, follow the good advice you have from the people on this forum and I'm sure it'll be fine xx


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

An Ab stud is type A carrying b.

This stud, mated to a Type A queen would produce only Type A kittens, which would result is no problems.

Mated to a Type b queen would produce Ab and b kittens. Any Ab kittens would die as they have a different blood type to the mother.

My mating could produce either type A and Ab kittens (if my girl is type A)
or type A, Ab or b if my girl is type Ab also. 

Theres no way to tell if she is A or Ab so you have to err on the side of caution. 

Is this all correct or have i gone mad and over-thought everything


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

alisondalziel said:


> An Ab stud is type A carrying b.
> 
> This stud, mated to a Type A queen would produce only Type A kittens, which would result is no problems.
> 
> ...


Hi Alison, you're correct, that how I've always understood it. What I'm trying to confirm is if Ab and AB are two different types would there be two different outcomes. I'm trying to understand who an AB stud could be used by. Is it the same result as a straight A stud?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Been reading through all of this (and your thread on hand feeding) and didn't know what to say, with just having our kittens etc. It must be awfully difficult for you. There are some wonderfully knowledgeable people on this site and I'm sure you have been given lots of excellent advice. I just want to say that I hope all goes well with your queen and her babies and I'm awfully glad that this is one dilemma I never have to face as all Siamese are type A.
There are so many potential pitfalls to breeding


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## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

Just my curiosity (I have not and have no intention of breeding) but do cats have Group O? Us hoomans have A, B, AB and O. Do you need to worry about rhesus factor in cats as well?


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Dozymoo said:


> Hi Alison, you're correct, that how I've always understood it. What I'm trying to confirm is if Ab and AB are two different types would there be two different outcomes. I'm trying to understand who an AB stud could be used by. Is it the same result as a straight A stud?


AB is an absolutely different blood group. You cannot distinguish between A or AB on dna test only blood test. The advice seems to be AB is always treated as breed as though the cat were an A but to be honest I think this blood group is so very very rare the issue doesn't really crop up.....

Ab is blood group A carrying the recessive B factor. Completely different from AB.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Bit irritating, really, that AB is called AB as it gets confused with Ab....


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

alisondalziel said:


> An Ab stud is type A carrying b.
> 
> This stud, mated to a Type A queen would produce only Type A kittens, which would result is no problems.
> 
> ...


Wrong Alison (you were right originally when you said there was definitely a risk!) - your DNA test says your girl is A carrying B aka Ab. Mating your girl to a boy who is also an A carrying B (Ab) will give the following blood type scenarios:

Homozygous blood group A (ie Aa)

Blood group A carrying B (ie Ab)

or

Homozygous blood group B (ie Bb)

mating an Ab to Ab has a chance of risk to some kittens (see the link someone already put up) although usually a first mating is okay, it is the subsequent matings where antibodies are produced and you can get some kitten deaths or be totally fine - you never know what fate will hand you in the genetic mix up!

I wouldn't take the risk with and Ab x Ab mating and would handfeed the kittens for the first 18 hours ....... but I am very overcautious. I know some people who regularly do Ab x Ab and have had not issues but there is a risk.....


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I will be hand feeding, i just can't risk losing a baby 

The stud owner has emailed me a page of info, i cant post it all on here its the wrong format but it basically says you can urine test the litter after they are born. type A kittens will have darker urine. 

I'm even more confused now.

Anyone who wants to see the page and fancies shedding any light on it please either pm me or post your email address and i will send it over.

This is not the ideal situation, and not what i expected for my 1st litter!!

p.s.
my DNA results say she's type A OR type Ab.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Alison your test results you posted on the thread would appear to say she is A carrying b.

They cannot tell if she is A or AB (which is not the same as A carrying b) on dna so when you test it always says that where any A factor is shown. The test result does say she is a carrier of b. Or has the lab come back to you with more information to suggest something else?

For example both my cats are homozygous A blood group. The dna test said:

non b/non b This cat is blood group A or AB.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

so a carrying b isnt good witha a stud but Ok with a b stud?

very confusing i was told that all are ok with a b stud is that right?


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> so a carrying b isnt good witha a stud but Ok with a b stud?
> 
> very confusing i was told that all are ok with a b stud is that right?


Basically, anything that causes a kitten to be different to mum is bad. If you have Ab to A then that is fine as kittens will all be either A or Ab or if you have b to b or A to A. Problems arise with b to A or b to Ab or similar groupings.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Hiya

This is what I have been taught:

A to A = fine

B to B = fine

A carrying b queen is fine with a homozygous A stud (no problems whatsoever as all kittens will be A or A carrying b) but carries a 25% risk with an A carrying b stud although problems do not normally occur on a first litter from this sort of mating - there is still the risk though.

B stud with a homozygous A queen is fine as all kittens will be A carrying b

An A stud with a B queen - you need to feed for first 18-24 hours 

A B stud with an A carrying b queen - carries a risk in the same way as two A carrying b cats mating although higher risk from this mating. 

And the moral of the story is if you own a Brit or a Selkirk get them blood grouped :thumbup: As you can see it really is a minefield with all the As and Bs and As carrying little bs 

Sarah x


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

& Birmans!


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

And Birmans :lol: Sorry and also Devons (used BSH as outcross and have the whole a/B dilemma too!) :thumbup:


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