# Sudden sibling agression...



## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Hello,

Today something really unusual and frightening happened.

I have two cats, sisters from the same litter. They are almost 2 years old now. 

Today they were out in the garden whilst we were all in the house, when all of a sudden we hear an almighty screeching and yowling. So we run to investigate and Luna comes running in chased by her sister Nova. Both hackles up, hair standing on end. This is the first time we have seen either of them like this. 

We noticed as well that Luna had wet herself, and you could see the trail of pee from one end of the path to the house. I got hold of her and her heart was racing and she looked terrified. 

I'm really not sure what happened, but it is totally out of character for them. They usually play fight but that ends with them cuddling and grooming each other. 

Can anyone suggest what may have occurred or whether this is something I should be worried about? 

Thanks

Beth


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Bethanjane22 - I'd say something happened in (or near) the garden that really scared one or both of them.

Is your garden accessible to other animals (cats or dogs) or is it cat-proofed? The screeching you heard may not have been your cats, it could have been a fight between other cats which your cats heard. My cats get very scared and run indoors with bushy tails and hackles raised if they hear a cat fight between other cats outside my garden.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Hi @chillminx

Thanks for responding.

The garden is catproofed for our cats (they're not very agile climbers and are very nervous of "the outside world") however other cats have come into the garden and managed to get out. It's possible that another cat could have come into the garden and spooked them. Whatever happened definitely involved one of them, as there were clumps of white/grey fur all over the grass (they're both white and grey).

It breaks my heart that something scared Luna so much she weed herself 

What made me think it was Nova was Luna's reaction to her when they came in. She seemed fearful of her.

we have a garden camera but are struggling to get the footage off it, but will persevere to try and get to the bottom of it.

thanks again

Beth


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Clumps of their fur means Nova or Luna was attacked by another cat. . I agree it is very upsetting that poor Luna weed herself in fear. Poor Luna. xx

I think it is likely to have been Luna who was attacked, she may not even have seen the attack coming and as Nova was there she blamed Nova. Cats are very good at making associations between things but sometimes their associations are incorrect. Nova was no doubt terrified by the attack on Luna, and hence why she ran indoors too. 

As there was a lot of fur torn out it seems very unlikely that it was Nova who attacked Luna, seeing as they normally get on well with each other , 

Is there no way you can improve the cat proofing so no other cats can get in your garden ? If not, maybe it is better to only allow them in the garden when you can go out with them. 

If your cat proofing was professionally installed you can contact the people who fitted it and ask them to make it 100% cat proof.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

@chillminx

Well, we managed to get the camera footage. It wasn't another cat, it was just Luna being a little idiot and her sister giving her a right good telling off!

Luna must have seen a bird fly over and though 'I can catch that' so we saw her dash up onto the garden table, onto the BBQ and then jumped, and landed on her sister. Nova then started to chase Luna around the garden until she caught her, and gave her a good telling off. Which resulted in the noises we heard and the trail of pee across the path.

Luna now refuses to go into the garden without us, however her relationship with her sister is fine, they still cuddle and love eachother.

Silly cats!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Oh my goodness!! Well it must be a relief to know the cause anyway.  I am surprised so much fur was torn out in a squabble between the two sisters!


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Oh my goodness!! Well it must be a relief to know the cause anyway.  I am surprised so much fur was torn out in a squabble between the two sisters!


They are semi long hair and are currently shedding. Plus we have artificial grass on that part of the garden which tends to grip the dead fur from them just rolling around on it. Relieved to know it wasn't another cat!


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

@chillminx I just wanted to open this up again.

Today we've had another episode of aggression. Completely out of nowhere. They just started scrapping really aggressively. The only thing that is different as of recently is that some new male cats have moved into the area and have been hanging around our house (sitting outside the front window and watching them through the glass, also sitting outside the back gate). Could this be causing them to fight each other? I'm really concerned because this is so unlike them. And the fighting is really aggressive!

It seems to be Nova instigating it, she'll go behind Luna and then it all starts!

Should I take them to the vet? Obviously with everything going on I don't want to put myself through any unnecessary contact with others.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi @Bethanjane22 - your cats are displaying what is known as "redirected aggression". This is not uncommon in cats. One or both of them got angry because they could see strange cats through the window but couldn't get at them, (or perhaps would be too frightened anyway to confront them. So it makes them stressed and anxious and they then redirect their aggression on to each other. Unfortunately if this is not stopped it can gain a momentum of its own and intolerance can develop between cats who previously got along fine

The way to prevent it is to cover just the bottom part of the windows that look on to the garden with frosted opaque stick-on paper. Cover just enough so the cats can't see out when they are sitting upright.

I had to do this some years ago with the lower part of the French Windows in my sitting room, so one of my cats could not look out and see my neighbour's cats in the garden. I bought a roll of the opaque/frosted paper from ebay. It is easy to stick on and when you remove it (later) it doesn't leave a mark on the windows.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stick-on...975526?hash=item5b617361a6:g:O08AAOSwxW9dobuO

I recommend you start chasing the new cats away from your garden gate. A small water pistol should do the trick. I assume as your garden is cat proofed there is no way these new cats can get into the garden?

If Luna and Nova do not calm down with each other I suggest you keep them indoors 24/7 for a while - as well as blocking their view with frosted paper on the windows.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Hi @chillminx

I'm writing this at 1:30am, on the sofa with Nova sleeping next to me.

Tonight it all kicked off here.

All day, no problems, they'd played together, cuddled together, groomed each other. No problem at all.

Then tonight we had been playing with their favourite flying bird toy (the kind on the pole with rope) then I put it away and not 5 mins later. They start scrapping again. Claws, teeth, yowling. I separated them and put Nova in the hallway, whilst Luna hid behind the sofa.

After a while I let Nova back in and she led on the floor but they wouldn't take their eyes off each other. They continued to growl and whine at one another occasionally, until they settled.

So I decided to try them with some treats to see if I could get them to calm down and be near each other. They'd come to be in turn for treats but Luna was obviously very wary of Nova. And would hiss at her if she came too close.

Then it was time for bed, and we have a routine which hasn't changed since we had them. They go into the kitchen, have their supper and then spend the night in there. They've got a bed each on the kitchen chairs where they sleep until morning. We've had no problems. Tonight though Luna would not come out of the living room. So we coaxed her with food but as soon as she was near the kitchen, Nova dashed towards her and they went running upstairs yowling and hissing and fighting.

So for the first time in their lives I had to separate them tonight.

i put Nova in the kitchen with her own litter tray, food and water. I put Luna in the living room with the same (albeit a makeshift litter tray).

Luna ate her supper, settled down and went to sleep on the sofa.

Nova however wouldn't eat her supper and then proceeded to howl and scream from 10:30-12:30 when I finally couldn't cope anymore.

So I swapped them over, put Luna in the kitchen and nova in the living room with me.

Although swapping them was difficult because as soon as Luna caught site of her sister she bolted upstairs howling like she was being attacked, even though Nova was behind a glass door.

I just really don't know what to do. It is breaking my heart to see them like this.

I've ordered a feliway plug in to see if that helps but I honestly don't know what to do or what the true reason behind it is.

We've had no visits from the street cats today, nothing bad has happened. I'm really worried.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

It’s now 6am. I’ve had approximately 2 hours sleep. Neither of them would settle in their separate rooms. Luna would howl in the kitchen, so if I went to see her then Nova would howl in the living room, so I spent most of the night sat on the hallway floor where they could both see me.

I tried to encourage them to see each other but just the mere glimpse would set them both off hissing and howling at one another. 

Nova managed to slip through the door as I was going back in and all hell broke loose again. 

I’m at my wits end. There’s no way I can keep them separated like this long term. They can’t even see each other without freaking out.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Bethanjane22 said:


> I tried to encourage them to see each other


I'm so sorry for you that this is happening! I know @chillminx will be back to help, but I know that you need to stop doing this. They should be completely separated so they cannot see each other at all.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

lorilu said:


> I'm so sorry for you that this is happening! I know @chillminx will be back to help, but I know that you need to stop doing this. They should be completely separated so they cannot see each other at all.


Hi @lorilu

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure how I can do this though. Due to COVID-19 we are all home now and working from home too. This means all the rooms in the house are used throughout the day, and keeping doors closed will be hard due to the layout of our house.

Keeping them apart at night, if last night is anything to go by will be impossible long term because they both howl all night. I'm at breaking point after just one night.

I'll try to keep them as separate as possible, it's going to be so hard as they are both such needy cats and hate being alone. They're my shadows and follow me everywhere.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Yes but you said you are trying to make them see each other. I was advising you to no longer do that. That is the only thing I can offer now, but I thought it should be said right away while you wait for better help.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

lorilu said:


> Yes but you said you are trying to make them see each other. I was advising you to no longer do that. That is the only thing I can offer now, but I thought it should be said right away while you wait for better help.


sorry if that came across as stand off-ish. I'm really tired and my brain isn't functioning this morning.

Currently sat here with Luna eating her breakfast up on the windowsill and Nova having hers the other side of the kitchen.

from what I can tell from their body language before it all starts. Luna seems to be really scared of Nova. She starts hissing which then sets Nova off and then it all kicks off.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

This is right now after breakfast. Luna on the windowsill is being very defensive and seems very scared. If her sister moves any closer than she is she starts to growl and hiss. Nova on the chair, is not acting aggressive and only hisses if she gets hissed at. 

The door to the rest of the house is open so they have the ability to go somewhere else if they want to. 

we’re all talking softly and being calm around them.

I’ve noticed Luna is looking at her sister but is slow blinking and closing her eyes at her, does that mean anything? 

I’m so sorry for the million posts!


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Bethanjane22 said:


> sorry if that came across as stand off-ish. I'm really tired and my brain isn't functioning this morning.


Not at all. It's a terrible situation I know. x


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi @Bethanjane22 - I am so sorry to hear what has happened and appreciate this kind of thing is upsetting and hard to deal with. I sympathise. x

Unfortunately your two lovely cats have lost their trust in each other, are now fearful of each other and on edge all the time they are around each other. The solution as lorilu has said is that you really do need to keep them separate in the day time, and then after a few days start very gradual reintroductions - allowing them short periods together under supervision.

I understand this will not be easy during the current lockdown as you have all the family home 24/7. But it is the only way, if you want to have a harmonious household.

Both cats need time to calm down and be more rational. Time apart is the way to achieve this.

i would also order some calming supplements from amazon.

Zylkene is made from a by product of milk and is calming. It works gently though so you may not see an effect for several days, so I'd keep them apart until it has had a chance to work.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vetoquinol-Zylkene-Capsules-Small-20-Count/dp/B00K06MAK2/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2VTT7V6MUDO6N&dchild=1&keywords=zylkene+75mg+for+cats&qid=1586353462&sprefix=zylkene+,aps,139&sr=8-3

At the Shelter we use Feliway Friends and Pet Remedy - the plug-in types. These do seem to help cats cope better when they are sharing pens with cats they don't know.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/FELIWAY-Diffuser-conflict-multi-cat-households/dp/B01ETO3PFE/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2AIUB6XSC4YI7&dchild=1&keywords=feliway+friends+plug+in+for+cats&qid=1586353562&sprefix=feliway+friends+,aps,142&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyV0xQSlpYQkZWTUlVJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzUzNTM1MTVIMVRNN1g4RU1YNiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwOTM5MDAxMU1RWjlKMTE2V1c3TyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pet-Remedy-Natural-Calming-Starter/dp/B07TKVJ8ZY/ref=sr_1_5?crid=CPNUWSG3NL1S&dchild=1&keywords=pet+remedy+plug+in+for+cats&qid=1586353606&sprefix=pet+remedy,aps,144&sr=8-5

But until you have these in situ I would keep the cats apart at least in the daytime.

It is possible you may be able to get them to share their room at night peaceably. But you need to settle one cat first, and only when they are settled for the night shiould you allow the other cat in the room. Also, for safety's sake you would need to sleep in the same room with them. if there are problems then you would need to separate them immediately into separate rooms.

Whatever you do, do not allow the cats to be in the same room if they are growling, yowling, or showing signs of fear. If you do, you will be reinforcing their negative view of each other and it will be even harder to turn things around.

Bear in mind that some of the cats' anxious behaviour may be due to the fact their routines have changed. You are all at home 24/7 due to the lockdown and they are not used to that. I imagine their life in the daytime used to be a lot quieter. Also in the current worrying circumstances of COVID, the humans in the home are no doubt stressed (I know I am stressed at present) and the cats are certainly likely to pick up on that. Our cats are very sensitive to our moods.

I hope things work out. Please let us know how things go.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

@chillminx

Thank you so much for your lovely response, you really are a credit to this forum 

I went online last night and ordered the Feliway Friends, Pet Remedy Spray & today I ordered the Zylkene tablets. The plug in will be here tomorrow so I will plug it in straight away in the hallway so it can filter into all the rooms.

I have separated them as of this morning and they seem to be a lot more relaxed. Nova has been up in my stepsons bedroom/my temporary home office with me all day, and he sister has been in the spare bedroom on the floor below. After looking at the Pet remedy I saw that it had Valerian in it, and remembered I had 2 pillow type 'toys' filled with the stuff. So I have given one each to them and it has made them really sleepy and calm. They've slept all day. I usually get pestered by them multiple times a day for attention, but they seem happy.

Tonight I think we are going to let Luna have the spare bedroom as she has been very happy in there today, and will just move her litter tray, and water in there for her.

Nova can sleep in the kitchen, however if she yowls all night again, we may have to spend the night in the living room. She seems like she is missing her sister, and I think Luna is the same. They both seem to whine and yowl for each other, but then when they see each other, Luna goes into defence mode which triggers it all.

I will keep them completely separate for a good few days and then slowly start the re-introduction through our glass living room door so they can see each other but not interact, then go from there.

I do think us being home has a lot to do with it, as well as a few unfortunate incidents. Firstly the initial reason for this thread. Luna chasing a bird and landing on Nova, resulting in their first scrap. Then on the weekend Luna was asleep in her wall mounted bed, when Nova decided she wanted to get up to the top one, so jumped onto the one Luna was on to launch herself up, and the force made Luna's bed pull out of the wall and fall to the floor with her on it. I think she may associate Nova with that incident. I have complained to Zooplus about the wall beds as it should not have ripped out of the wall like it did. We used heavy duty fixings and good long screws. I have a new cat tree coming on Saturday as a replacement.

Thanks again for all your help and support, I really don't know what I'd do without this forum for advice.

I will keep you updated on the progress.

Thanks again to you and @lorilu

x


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

My cats had trouble adjusting to me being home so much as well. It took them about 2 weeks to stop showing subtle signs of stress. Plus, I had to remember to control my own stress over the situation, because cats are emotional barometers and will pick up on anything we are putting out too. Please keep us posted. x


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Thank you for your kind words of appreciation @Bethanjane  

It sounds as though things are improving a little between Luna and Nova, which is great. You are definitely going in the right direction.  

I look forward to an update. x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

@lorilu I have been really stressed with the whole COVID situation, worrying about at risk family members, working from home 9-5:30 Mon-Fri, home schooling my stepson, and yesterday caught one of my nail extensions and it ripped off my fingernail. So stress levels are most definitely at a high in this house. :Nailbiting


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Bethanjane22 said:


> @lorilu I have been really stressed with the whole COVID situation, worrying about at risk family members, working from home 9-5:30 Mon-Fri, home schooling my stepson, and yesterday caught one of my nail extensions and it ripped off my fingernail. So stress levels are most definitely at a high in this house. :Nailbiting


{{Hug}}


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Just a quick update after day 1 of separation.

1st day went well, Luna spent her day chilling out in the spare room which is now her safe space. Nova spent the day up with me and had a break in the garden with us at lunch. Luna stayed upstairs, even though the door was open so she could come down (but not out).

The night was slightly better than the previous night. I didn’t get woken up until 3am so had a solid 4 hours uninterrupted. Then went downstairs to sleep in with Nova as she was very upset about being on her own. She was purring so hard when I went down she was shaking! Luna the woke up about 5:30 and started meowing and scratching the carpet in the spare room. She settled down again and then started up at 6:45, which is when I got up and fed them (separately)

We had a mini accidental breakthrough this morning. After breakfast I played with Luna in the house with their favourite bird chase toy, then went out into the garden to play with Nova. However I forgot to fully close the door behind me, so about 5 minutes into playing with Nova, Luna joined in. They took it in turns to play with the toy and gave each other space. So i rewarded them both with treats, and they sat next to each other to have them. I even managed to get this double tongue out picture!

I didn't want to push my luck to got them back inside to separate them again and we had a minor hissing incident, but I quickly removed one of them to a safe spot. 

The tricky thing is they both want to be with me, which is difficult. Nova is the most vocal when separated so I tend to keep her with me, as Luna quite enjoys her alone time. However she just wants to cuddle at times and will start to cry. 

The Feliway diffuser and the pet remedy spray arrive today, along with their new cat tree. I'm planning to introduce Nova to it first so that her scent is on it, and then bring Luna in separately. Is there a better way to do this?

I'm hoping the play time together is a positive step in the right direction. 

I wont post daily updates as I'm sure it will get boring, but I will check in again next week.

Thanks again

Beth


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Awww, what a fabulous photo! Such pretty girls xx

It sounds as though things are progressing well. Everything you're doing to keep them calm sounds excellent. Well done 

It's possible in the current circumstances one cat may want to monopolise the new cat tree and if so I would go along with it for the sake of harmony. I'm sure that once good relations are fully restored between them they will happily share the cat tree. If Nova is more assertive than Luna it is best to let Nova take the lead at present. 

I'll look forward to your update, next week.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Awww, what a fabulous photo! Such pretty girls xx
> 
> It sounds as though things are progressing well. Everything you're doing to keep them calm sounds excellent. Well done
> 
> ...


Some worrying signs today from Nova, she's hardly eaten, not interested in treats and I have not observed her going to the toilet other than for a wee.

It seems like the separation is causing stress on Nova. She's really struggling being confined especially at night. She

I'm quite concerned that this whole situation will make her sick. I've arrange a telephone consultation with the vet for Tuesday.

it's causing major stress for myself too, I've completely lost my appetite and feel awful 24/7.

I'm sorry to burden you all with this but I don't know anyone with cats.

They've had Zylkene, the Feliway is plugged in and we've had a liberal spraying of pet remedy spray.

Do you have any tips for nighttime separation anxiety?

I can't understand why they want to be together but when are together they fight? They want to be in the same room, they want to be outside at the same time, they're only hostile when close together, I just don't understand it.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I would be concerned that the loss of appetite occurred at the same time you started the pheromone plug in and spray. Stop them (especially the Feliway) and see if she starts eating again.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

lorilu said:


> I would be concerned that the loss of appetite occurred at the same time you started the pheromone plug in and spray. Stop them (especially the Feliway) and see if she starts eating again.


She hasn't been eating properly since Monday (since the aggression started) I have to coax her to eat more as she would just walk away after a few bites.

I will turn off the Feliway and not spray anymore of the calming spray. I'll only give her sister the Zylkene just in case it's that.

I've tried confining Nova to the kitchen (where they normally sleep together) but she just yowls all night until I come down & The living room, where she just bangs the door and yowls all night again.

Luna will settle in the spare room (she's up there now fast asleep). The only other place is our bedroom but my partner doesn't want her to get used to sleeping in there as it's the one room we try to keep "our space".

I'm so sorry if I'm coming across as hysterical but I'm feeling so at a loss with how to keep her calm at night whilst separating them.

again I am so appreciative of your advice xx


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Bethanjane22 said:


> I'm so sorry if I'm coming across as hysterical but I'm feeling so at a loss with how to keep her calm at night whilst separating them.


You aren't. Not only are you under the same strain as everyone else in the world, which is bad enough, but you have this going on now too. I can only imagine how distressing it must be, I feel it in my gut, and it isn't even my cats.

Remember that cats are emotional barometers and feel our stress acutely as well.

I've never used Zyklene but see it recommended often in this forum. However I believe it takes up to two weeks to take effect.

I like Rescue Remedy myself. Both for cats and for myself.

And you are probably right that it's the stress, I hadn't realized her appetite had been off for longer than today.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Bethanjane22 - please don't apologise, you are not burdening us with this. x

I understand things are difficult and the current upset with your two dear cats is making everything else harder to bear. You can't help how you feel hun, things are what they are with the constant worries about COVID, and life is stressful right now. But if there is some way you can calm yourself a little (I understand it is not easy) then I think it will have a positive effect in lowering the girls' anxiety levels. Bear in mind that your cats will be anxious about you as they have not seen you so stressed before and they will not understand the reason for it.

I think the girls probably do want to be together because it is their routine to be together a lot, especially at night. But the reality at present is they have lost some of their trust in each other, so it's best they are not together much atm, as it will keep them calmer.

As far as night time goes, is there a room you could sleep in with both cats for now ? (not your bedroom) Nova in particular needs you right now to help her feel less anxious. When my 2 girls (sisters) fell out with each other badly some years ago (due to an upsetting vet visit ) I found they were Ok together at night as long as I settled one cat first, with her supper, and then once she was in her bed, I brought in her sister, whose bed was across the room, and then I stayed with them all night. There was no problem, they slept right through the night.

But if having both of them together with you at night is too much to contemplate at present then let Luna sleep in the spare room at night as she seems Ok there, and you sleep in the living room at night with Nova. It should be only for a few days, and then I am sure things between the girls will start to improve. It sounds as though Luna is more self-sufficient than Nova and more able to self-soothe. I think if you can calm Nova down, you will see the beneficial effects on Luna as well.

Zylkene is good at calming anxious cats but as lorilu mentioned it can take a while to be effective. I usually find within a week I see a difference.. Then the effect builds over the course of a month. It may be that Luna does not need the Zylkene but it sounds as though it may help Nova. It should not cause a loss of appetite, and I wonder if it is more the change in her routines (with you all at home 24/7) as well as the falling out with Luna that has caused the loss of appetite...

Though of course one should not overlook the possibility that Nova may be unwell. Have you checked her over thoroughly for injuries such as a puncture wound? I know it sounds preposterous that Luna could have bitten Nova, (during the original fight in the garden), but sometimes unexpected things like that can happen if the cats are badly scared by something. Luna may have lashed out instinctively, not realising it was her sister she was attacking. If Nova does have an injury it could possibly be infected and that may be causing a loss of appetite.

Can you give Nova some food she doesn't normally get fed to get her interest? When one of my boys is off colour and loses his appetite I give him a pouch of Felix As Good as it Looks, and he starts eating again. He never normally has that food. Most cats love Felix! 

Please let us know how things go. xx


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> @Bethanjane22 - please don't apologise, you are not burdening us with this. x
> 
> I understand things are difficult and the current upset with your two dear cats is making everything else harder to bear. You can't help how you feel hun, things are what they are with the constant worries about COVID, and life is stressful right now. But if there is some way you can calm yourself a little (I understand it is not easy) then I think it will have a positive effect in lowering the girls' anxiety levels. Bear in mind that your cats will be anxious about you as they have not seen you so stressed before and they will not understand the reason for it.
> 
> ...


Thanks again @chillminx & @lorilu

I am trying to stay positive and as calm as possible. It doesn't help that it's impacting my relationship with my partner as he's not happy with the disturbed sleep, the smell of the pet remedy (we just had a row about it as he said the house smells like a damp old dog), having to constantly keep the doors closed, the cat fights. He took a lot or persuading to get them in the first place and he has really started to bond with them now. Then of course this happened and now he's back to "the bloody cats". Not helpful. He just says for them to sort it out themselves, but I know that doesn't work.

Last night was better, Nova had the living room and Luna had the spare room. I managed to sleep until 5, until my other half got up to use the bathroom, then I was a bit on edge then just in case they started crying or scratching the doors.

I've checked them both over as best I can and I cannot see any injuries.

This morning they had food (nova ate 80% of hers) within sight of each other but far enough away as to not feel threatened. Then we had a good 45 mins of play time in the garden and the living room where they both played with toys without any incidents occurring. However as soon as the toys were removed it started again so they've been separated.

I'll keep up with the Zylkene with them both and see if it helps. However will probably have to stop using the pet remedy spray.

I'm really not sure how long we can keep up the separation without it seriously impacting mine and my partners relationship. It's been a few days and it's already causing a rift.

If they can't get along, with one another we may have to look at rehoming one of them. It'll be a last resort but if we can't get them to get along then I don't know what else we can do.

Now to try and get through the long weekend


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

I’ve also done a bit of observing today in terms of their interactions when together.

What seems to happen is Nova will walk towards Luna, and will then make a meow noise which then causes Luna to hiss and then Nova hisses back.

They’re currently both out on the garden with us and are staying somewhat apart.

Luna also just came out of hiding and led down next to nova. They made eye contact but then looked away.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Bethanjane22 - I kind of sympathise with your OH about the smell of the Pet Remedy, as I don't like the smell of it either. :Yuck. If you want to continue with a valerian based product you might be better with Beaphar Calming spot-on which can be very successful. It takes a few hours to be effective and one dose lasts a week. I use it for one of my girls when she needs to go to the vet as she gets very stressed in her carrier and poos or vomits on the journey.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beaphar-Calming-Spot-On-for-Cats/dp/B00E5DK1O8/ref=sr_1_4?crid=WHNKK2LD3MA1&dchild=1&keywords=beaphar+spot+on+cats&qid=1586515689&sprefix=beaphar+spot+on,aps,137&sr=8-4

I'd still continue with the Zylkene though. With the Beaphar you may only need to give them one dose each.

As your OH is getting upset about his disturbed sleep can he sleep on his own for a few days, and you sleep in the spare room? Then OH could keep his door closed and would be unaware of the cats. If he is a key worker he will be tired and under a lot of stress in the COVID crisis and I can understand him being protective of his sleep. A bit of time "apart" in the same house might be good for you both anyway.  I am finding this is so with my OH and me - we are retired but both usually out of the house quite a bit. We have never spent so much time together at home in the entire 40 or so years we've been together. It is not easy! Yesterday we both did our own separate thing at home and only met up for meals. It was quite good actually! 

I think things are going in the right direction with Luna and Nova. IMO it's far too soon to be thinking about rehoming one of them. They are tolerating each other better, and you are separating them when there are 'rumblings'. Please don't lose heart. x Tell them what good girls they are, when they are getting on. They will adapt their behaviour to please you - cats do that when there is a close bond with their human. So lots of praise for good behaviour will help.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> @Bethanjane22 - I kind of sympathise with your OH about the smell of the Pet Remedy, as I don't like the smell of it either. :Yuck. If you want to continue with a valerian based product you might be better with Beaphar Calming spot-on which can be very successful. It takes a few hours to be effective and one dose lasts a week. I use it for one of my girls when she needs to go to the vet as she gets very stressed in her carrier and poos or vomits on the journey.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beaphar-Calming-Spot-On-for-Cats/dp/B00E5DK1O8/ref=sr_1_4?crid=WHNKK2LD3MA1&dchild=1&keywords=beaphar+spot+on+cats&qid=1586515689&sprefix=beaphar+spot+on,aps,137&sr=8-4
> 
> ...


It's really not a pleasant smell. So I do sympathize with him too. I'll continue with the Zylkene until the pack that I have runs out.

I'll keep the spot on in mind just in case I need something else.

My OH is a very light sleeper whereas I am the opposite (except recently when I'm hyper alert of any noises!). He's getting frustrated because it's a change to his sleeping pattern and our night time routine having to separate them every night and then trying to be quiet throughout the night so as not to disturb them. My mum keeps telling me not to let them rule our lives and that we shouldn't have to be quiet for them and they'll adjust.

It's crazy that even though you want to spend your life with one person, you also can't be around them constantly without going slightly crazy!

I'm only considering rehoming because I'm one of those people who needs to think about the whole picture, all the what if's. I need to mentally prepare myself for any eventuality. I'm confident we can resolve it, but I need to think about the worst case for my own sanity.

We've had a couple of breakthroughs today.

Luna allowed Nova to come right up to her face, sniff her and lick her face. I won't lie to you I almost cried with happiness to see that. Luna then walked away.

We've had one or two hissing incidents but they don't get any worse than that.

We've adapted an approach of saying "silly girls, come on" when they hiss, and then diverting their attention somewhere else. Then when they're doing positive things we say "good girls, you're so good!" and reward them with a treat.

Theyre currently out in the garden with us, very chilled out. Nova is sleeping under the bamboo plants and Luna is in the shade or the patio table.

We will try to see if we can keep the same level of peace in the house later on. Most of their spats have taken place in the house, I'm guessing it's because they feel more trapped in there.

Thanks again xx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Aww, the girls are definitely making progress!  You are doing all the right things, hang in there hun, you will resolve this, I am sure!  

Maybe in the house they need to be encouraged to spend most of their time in different rooms for now. If they can get on Ok in the garden that is a big step forward  

I am feeling very positive about a good outcome xx


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Aww, the girls are definitely making progress!  You are doing all the right things, hang in there hun, you will resolve this, I am sure!
> 
> Maybe in the house they need to be encouraged to spend most of their time in different rooms for now. If they can get on Ok in the garden that is a big step forward
> 
> I am feeling very positive about a good outcome xx


Thanks for replying, I hope you are enjoying the sunshine?

I will encourage them into their separate rooms in the house for the time being and continue to separate them at night until they start to make progress in the house.

Thanks again, I'm starting to feel a bit less stressed today, hopefully I'll be able to eat a full meal soon.

xx


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

This is them currently. Luna chose to get closer to her sister and Nova just lay there and accepted it x


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Glad you're feeling a bit less stressed today. I find it is a "work in progress" keeping my stress levels down, LOL  The sunshine is lovely and definitely helps  

Good girls sitting close to each other in the garden. It looks as though the one on the right in the photo is a bit wary still. Is that Nova? But the main thing is they are trying to mend their relationship. x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Glad you're feeling a bit less stressed today. I find it is a "work in progress" keeping my stress levels down, LOL  The sunshine is lovely and definitely helps
> 
> Good girls sitting close to each other in the garden. It looks as though the one on the right in the photo is a bit wary still. Is that Nova? But the main thing is they are trying to mend their relationship. x


Yeah baby steps, little by little. The sun is definitely helping today

Yes that is Nova, she keeps wanting to go up to Luna as she normally would but is getting met with hissing and growling so I think she's a bit wary of her still. I'm happy that Luna is trying to get closer to her, it might be showing that she's starting to recognize her again. Fingers crossed they keep it up x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Just another quick update. They’re both currently sleeping in the same room. One is on the cat tree, and the other is on the window perch. They’ve looked at one another a few times but no animosity. They’ve since fallen asleep 

Baby steps xx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Excellent news.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

They both got down at different times to use the litter tray but Nova wouldn’t let Luna back into the living room. There was a state down, Luna got anxious, so I took her up to her safe space (the spare room). I think they’d had enough of eachother.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

I know I said I wouldn’t do daily updates but it helps me to track what’s been going on.

So after the peace in the garden and sleeping in the same room at the same time yesterday, we had a little hissing incident because I think Nova was intimidating Luna when she was trying to come back into the living room. She just stared her down, which has got me thinking that Nova maybe isn’t completely innocent in all this. 

This morning they’ve had their breakfast separated and we’ve just been out to the garden for a little play session which went well. After it they were led down on the grass and got pretty close without incident. Seems like the house is definitely where they both feel less safe. 

We’ve had some hissing this morning when they initially saw one another, but nothing worse than that.

One downside to this is that neither of them will let me groom them. I’ve tried every day when they’re apart and they just won’t relax enough for me to do it. Not great with them both shedding and being long hairs! LI was left a lovely present from Nova on the living room carpet this morning. A nice large hairball! At least she did it on the carpet and not the long pile rug! 

They both also seem to shy away from fusses when they’re around one another too, which is sad as it’s showing me they’re not relaxed enough yet. 

We’re on day 3 of the Zylkene and I ordered the Beaphar calming spot on which arrives today. 

I’m hoping for some more peace so that we can all enjoy the sunshine in the garden again. Fingers crossed!


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Gosh I really don’t know what it is with these two. Playing fine in the garden together, I go to put the toy away and a hissing yelling match breaks out! 

So I usher Luna back in, and leave Nova outside. Then they’re sat either side of the patio door meowing and pawing at the glass in the way they do it they want to go out/come in, like they want to be together, but as soon as the door is open, Luna starts growling and hissing at Nova. 

It’s so frustrating!


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

I’ve also noticed then both twitching their ears and scarring a bit. I’m not sure if this is normal or not, but I’ve attached a picture of one each of their ears.

I’m concerned about the redness more than anything. Not sure if it’s a normal cat thing?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

One of my cats does get red ears sometimes. But as both Luna and Nova have both got red twitchy ears I am wondering if they have ear mites.. Usually ear mites can only be caught from another cat who has them, and your 2 have no contact with other cats (I think?) and your garden is catproofed. It might be an idea to rule it out though. Ear Mites can be caught from dogs, if anyone in the house has contact with dogs.

Do you treat the girls with a spot-on flea repellent? Not all makes treat for ear mites. Advocate and Bravecto are two that do. (Advantage does not). But the two I mention can only be bought from the vet or online with a vet prescription. I am sure you could get some from the vet though, even during the lockdown, or at least a prescription mailed to you.

Another thing that can cause red twitchy ears is a food allergy. But it seems unlikely they would both develop an allergy at the same time.

I am sure from what you say that both girls are reacting to each other, and both may be winding each other up. Cats do often use passive-aggression as a wind-up technique! And a lot of staring is quite passive aggressive in cat etiquette. 

Hissing is just a warning from one cat to another. I would ignore a bit of hissing. If there is a lot of hissing then maybe say nothing but just step between them to break the eye-line. Or put a cushion between them.

Growling is the way the cat 'ups the ante' and is more serious that hissing as the next stage could be an attack. Again I would use the cushion-between-them method to break the eye-line. Breaking the eye-line without saying anything can also be useful when there's a lot of staring going on. 

I think both of them are saying to each other "just you watch it!" because they don't quite trust each other yet. They are sensitive creatures and their feelings are hurt. Cats are not very good at forgiving each other if they fall out. They seem to hold a grudge for quite a while after. Contrast that with how quickly and completely most cats forgive their human companions if we make a mistake such as stepping on a tail. x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> One of my cats does get red ears sometimes. But as both Luna and Nova have both got red twitchy ears I am wondering if they have ear mites.. Usually ear mites can only be caught from another cat who has them, and your 2 have no contact with other cats (I think?) and your garden is catproofed. It might be an idea to rule it out though. Ear Mites can be caught from dogs, if anyone in the house has contact with dogs.
> 
> Do you treat the girls with a spot-on flea repellent? Not all makes treat for ear mites. Advocate and Bravecto are two that do. (Advantage does not). But the two I mention can only be bought from the vet or online with a vet prescription. I am sure you could get some from the vet though, even during the lockdown, or at least a prescription mailed to you.
> 
> ...


Thanks @chillminx

I do treat them with spot on, but it is the Advantage one, we get it from Pets at home.

I'll see about getting one that treats mites.

Unfortunately things have gotten worse since I posted this morning. My partner came home from dropping his son off and just walked outside without realising they'd been aggy towards eachother and Luna came back outside. As soon as Nova saw her she made a beeline which caused Luna to hiss and growl, then it all erupted again! I wasn't quick enough to break them up and they ran into the house tearing around up the stairs until Luna was cornered in her safe room hissing and growling with Nova on the outside.

Unfortunately Luna has been confined to the house and Nova is out in the garden with us. I'm going in occasionally to give her some attention.

I really thought we were making progress.

Back to the drawing board to start the separation all over again. It's very difficult with the layout of our house because we live in a town house so every room is connected by one central hallway. And downstairs rooms lead from one into the other. Lots of narrow hallways and sharp turns. Luna now stays low to the ground and hugs the wall when she's in the house. It's very sad to see.

I'm starting to feel like This is never going to mend.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

So I’ve been chatting with my OH today and we’ve talked about what the cats need for us to be able to keep them happy at home. 

We’ve decided to set a date on the calendar, and if things don’t improve by then we’ll have to look at our next option. The next option would be potentially having to re-home one of them. 

We had only initially planned to get one cat, but as they were sisters we thought well if we have 2 then they’ll have company when we’re out. Our house sadly isn’t set up to be able to provide 2 separate areas for them if we had to continue to keep them separated. Also once lockdown ends my partner works from home most of the time and it would be a lot to expect from him to have to keep them separated all day and if we’re both out all day it would be so unfair to have them both locked up all day and then all night. 

We’ve now got 2 litter trays for the evenings so they have one each on their separate rooms. We don’t have space to have another one out permanently, they have one very large one which up until recently they shared without problems. 

I’m concerned about the stress this is all putting on Luna as she is genuinely terrified of her sister. The mere sight of her sends her into a panic. She hugs the walls, avoids any open spaces and in general is a completely different cat. 

I know I’ll probably get flack for saying that we’re already considering re-homing, but I am the type of person who wants the best lives possible for them. If a better life can be had elsewhere for one of them then I’d rather they spend the rest of their lives in a happy home rather than in a home of aggression and fear.


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## ChaosCat (Dec 7, 2017)

I can totally understand these thoughts, I had the same dilemma with Annie and her sister Bonny. Suddenly, over night, Annie started being aggressive towards Bonny and Bonny was absolutely scared and only ran away from her. 
Whatever I tried to reintroduce them failed as Bonny was too scared to even come closer than four meters to the grid door when she could see Annie on the other side.

I was able to give them separate spaces and separate flaps for going outside. Else I would have rehomed one of them, too.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

ChaosCat said:


> I can totally understand these thoughts, I had the same dilemma with Annie and her sister Bonny. Suddenly, over night, Annie started being aggressive towards Bonny and Bonny was absolutely scared and only ran away from her.
> Whatever I tried to reintroduce them failed as Bonny was too scared to even come closer than four meters to the grid door when she could see Annie on the other side.
> 
> I was able to give them separate spaces and separate flaps for going outside. Else I would have rehomed one of them, too.


It's so good you managed to figure out a way to keep them separated. I'd love to be able to do that with ours but with them being indoor only (and access to our garden which isn't very big). We have a new build house which is impossible to separate as all the downstairs areas lead into one another.

They'll tolerate being together if there is food involved, getting close enough for their faces to touch. Then all of a sudden Luna gets anxious which puts Nova into defense mode.

I'm going to try neutralizing their scents tomorrow with cat dry shampoo to see if that helps.

we've set our date for 1 month time, we will try everything we can before then.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Luna is sadly a very scared girl. She’s been out in the garden playing by herself, catching bugs and having a happy old time. She was then by the back door wanting to come in, so as Nova was settled on the cat tree we let Luna in. As soon as Luna saw Nova she started hissing, then she made a beeline for the door to the hallway and nova followed her, so Luna ran upstairs with Nova after her. There was no fight, just Luna with her back to the wall hissing at a very confused Nova. Nova came away with me no problem and just settled back in her bed. Luna stayed upstairs with her back to the wall. I’ve since been up to reassure and comfort her and being her a larger than normal meal, some water and her litter tray so she’s safely back in her “safe room”.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Bethanjane22 - poor Luna, I feel really sorry for her, bless her. She is probably very confused as to why Nova is being mean to her. 

It is a crying shame this whole misunderstanding has arisen between the girls. I really sympathise with you, it must be very upsetting to witness them being aggressive and scared when they used to get on well.

Are both girls having the Zylkene?

In view of the layout of your home I understand why you feel rehoming one of the cats will be best if things do not resolve after another month. No-one will judge you for that decision hun.x. I am in accord with you - I'd much rather re-home a cat and have two happy cats in separate homes, rather than keep both cats miserable and stressed.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

I wish it was Nova being overly aggressive, however she’s not. Most of the time Nova just approaches her and that causes Luna to start hissing, which in turn causes Nova to react.

it really is so upsetting and sudden which is the saddest thing about it.

Yes, they are both having Zylkene, but I am considering increasing Luna’s dosage. I’ve still got the call planned with the vet on Tuesday, so hopefully they can shed some more light on possible causes or suggest further help.

I.d feel so awful about having to rehome one of them and I wouldn’t even know where to begin to choose one of them to rehome. My first thought was the Luna would be better off as an only cat as she is the one showing signs of fear around other cats. But then again I don’t know how Nova would cope on her own without a companion. it’s a very sad and difficult situation.


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## ChaosCat (Dec 7, 2017)

Fingers crossed that things settle and you won’t have to rehome!
From my two I would have chosen to rehome Bonny as she was the much easier going cat. Annie is very territorial and would have hated to leave her home.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

ChaosCat said:


> Fingers crossed that things settle and you won't have to rehome!
> From my two I would have chosen to rehome Bonny as she was the much easier going cat. Annie is very territorial and would have hated to leave her home.


I'm certainly going to try everything possible.

The problem I have is that they're both very bonded to me. I'd say Nova is more bonded than Luna as Nova finds it very hard to settle in a room if we're in another room. However Luna will happily self soothe and go to sleep anywhere. Nova has to be with us.

Even though Luna is the scared little girl in this, I think she'd be easier to rehome as an only cat. I think she's calmer by herself.

like I say, I'm hoping it doesn't come to that x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

So this morning, Luna is still very scared. She only got a glimpse of Nova and started to hiss and growl.

Nova however is feeling very stressed. She’s been tearing the carpet in the living room because she’s having to be shut away at night on her own. She hates being apart from me, and it looks like she hates being away from her sister too.

She is showing no signs of aggression towards Luna, she simply just wants to go towards her, and makes her little chirpy noises at her. I’ve even seen her giving slow blinks and she seems very relaxed around her.

Luna seems to be the problem. She has got it in her head that Nova is a threat. However Nova isn’t being threatening. 

Keeping them separate is really draining on all of us and I’m really noticing an impact on my mental health which was already pretty fragile.

I can’t imagine having to do this for a month and living with one cat who is very scared all the time and one who is getting anxious being separated all the time.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

So today we’ve started to do full separation, no sight, no interactions. Luna has been in her safe space all day after having some time out in the garden this morning. Nova spent time indoors with us. 

Then I put Nova in the kitchen and moved Luna up to her safe space. She has been up there since. We’ve played and I’ve groomed her, she seems very content with her room and has been sleeping all day. I’ve checked on her periodically but am giving her the space she needs.

Nova has been with us most of the day in the garden and living room, she is the most needy and shutting her away would be impossible because she just howls. 

Will feed them separately later and will let Luna have a little roam around the house and while Nova is out in the garden. Then I’ll play with them both separately and do the same later before settling them in for the night.


Today I had the realization of how upsetting rehoming one of them would be, so it has made me want to give the separation and reintroducing a good go before that has to happen.

I do have a question, in terms of Luna’s safe space of the spare room, how long is it fair to keep her confined in there. I don’t know why but I feel as if I’m neglecting her by making her stay up there. Even though she’s been sleeping and seems happy. I just have this horrible feeling that she’ll be unhappy. She has her bed (an actual double bed too), water, scratching post, litter tray and then at meal times she will have her food. There is also a Feliway in there.

If someone could help put my mind at ease so I don’t feel like the worst car guardian in the world. I’d really appreciate it!


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## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

Oh gosh, it sounds like you are experiencing exactly the same thing that happened between two of our cats (siblings aged 7) almost exactly a year ago. Ed and Darcy were in their outside enclosure and an unneutered tom cat came and sprayed on it. All hell broke out and we had some quite serious redirected aggression between them (and caught in the middle were our other two cats CK and Jammy). I honestly didn't think we would be able to resolve the issues that occurred, and I was very depressed at how significantly they had fallen out. For a short time we had to separate all 4 cats and then try to get the household back to normal and on good terms with each other.

A lot of the things that @chillminx has suggested are things that we tried, but I thought I would add in a few of the things that seemed to help a lot for us because roll on a year and for the most part Ed and Darcy are good friends (although there are some triggers that do cause hissing and big tails but we are now able to diffuse them very quickly). I should add as well that things were back to normal with them in a few weeks from the original incident - enough so that we were able to successfully add a 5th cat (Waffles) at the end of April last year only about 6 weeks after the main incident happened.

The recommendation to block sight lines to any passing cats in the garden is a really good one. We used window film and installed some diy shutters from kitchen cabinet doors so that they couldn't see outside when this tom cat walked by. We also figured out the routes the cat was coming into our garden and blocked them up and installed a motion activated water sprayer. After only a short time the cat stopped coming via that route which meant he couldn't get onto the cat enclosure where he spooked them in the first place.

we only kept Ed and Darcy separated for a short time, we bought lots of high value treats and dug out all their favourite high value toys. We started re introducing them again very soon after the incident making sure we always had treats at hand and then got them involved in energetic play with treat rewards.

We found that always having the tv on with videos for cats on (basically non stop birds) gave them something to be totally distracted by when they were in the same room when we doing reintroductions.

we sort of created a quiet room, warm, loads of beds and places to snuggle down and stayed in there nearly all the time with all cats. Basically reducing stimulus down to the tv and us.

Ed and Darcy wear walking harnesses when they go out and these little jackets have a reassuring feel to them for them, so we basically had them wearing their jackets nearly all the time because it stopped them being aggressive with each other. For a time we also put a bell on Ed's jacket so Darcy knew where Ed was even if she couldn't see him.

we hugely increased resources, like litter boxes so that there would be no chance of any competition.

it was a really tough time soo totally know what you are going through and I hope you can get your girls back to being friends again - I'm not sure if anything I've said is useful but I just wanted to say I've been there... and maybe something in the above will give an extra thing to try and hopefully you can get your girls back on friendly terms.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Psygon said:


> Oh gosh, it sounds like you are experiencing exactly the same thing that happened between two of our cats (siblings aged 7) almost exactly a year ago. Ed and Darcy were in their outside enclosure and an unneutered tom cat came and sprayed on it. All hell broke out and we had some quite serious redirected aggression between them (and caught in the middle were our other two cats CK and Jammy). I honestly didn't think we would be able to resolve the issues that occurred, and I was very depressed at how significantly they had fallen out. For a short time we had to separate all 4 cats and then try to get the household back to normal and on good terms with each other.
> 
> A lot of the things that @chillminx has suggested are things that we tried, but I thought I would add in a few of the things that seemed to help a lot for us because roll on a year and for the most part Ed and Darcy are good friends (although there are some triggers that do cause hissing and big tails but we are now able to diffuse them very quickly). I should add as well that things were back to normal with them in a few weeks from the original incident - enough so that we were able to successfully add a 5th cat (Waffles) at the end of April last year only about 6 weeks after the main incident happened.
> 
> ...


Thank you @Psygon , I really appreciate your view on this situation and it's glad to hear of another person who has had a similar situation.

I'm really glad you were able to sort things out with your kitties.

I have a few questions, I hope you don't mind?

1. How long did you keep them completely separated? We're unsure how long we should keep them full apart.

2. Was one of yours fearful of the other? One of mine (Luna) is very very scared of her sister (and as of today, loud noises which she was previously fine with e.g the extractor fan, tumble dryer).

3. Did you use any calming products like Feliway or Pet remedy?

I'll try your techniques of the TV distraction and good treats, lots of toys etc. I will wait until they can tolerate seeing eachother first.

I think part of the problem is that they spend a lot of time in the kitchen which is at the front of our house which leads directly onto the pavement. This is where a lot of the neighborhood cats roam, right and as of recently, come up to our windows. I will try to keep the girls away from the windows , and out of the kitchen from now on. And if I do eventually get them back to feeling safe to sleep in the kitchen together, I will ensure the blinds are fully closed.

This has made he feel a bit more hopeful, thank you.

@chillminx information and advice is always brilliant and I'm so very appreciative


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## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

Bethanjane22 said:


> Thank you @Psygon , I really appreciate your view on this situation and it's glad to hear of another person who has had a similar situation.
> 
> I'm really glad you were able to sort things out with your kitties.
> 
> ...


1. We only really had them fully separated a day then after that we had them separated occasionally for about a week maybe more. Things kicked off quite often over night so we had to separate them then. We ended up shutting them in our bedroom with us overnight after that as it reduced the flare ups. This may seem odd, but we found if they always knew where each other was there was significantly less issues.

2. Yes, Darcy was fearful of Ed - and when we have flare ups now it's because she gets surprised by him sometimes. I've just remembered that we ended up pushing loads of furniture up against walls so he couldn't walk behind them and then surprise her and we dismantled our bed so they couldn't come out from under the bed and cause surprise. Darcy wet herself or sprayed a few times from fear too.

3. Yes, I forgot that too - we used feliway and still do. We also used a spot on calmer and zykelene. Basically we tried almost anything and everything including vet visits and spoke to a behaviourist (who said we were doing all the right things).

on the window front, definitely try the window film - it's very easy to apply, doesn't block much light and really helped us. It's also easy to remove and doesn't damage the window at all.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Psygon said:


> 1. We only really had them fully separated a day then after that we had them separated occasionally for about a week maybe more. Things kicked off quite often over night so we had to separate them then. We ended up shutting them in our bedroom with us overnight after that as it reduced the flare ups. This may seem odd, but we found if they always knew where each other was there was significantly less issues.
> 
> 2. Yes, Darcy was fearful of Ed - and when we have flare ups now it's because she gets surprised by him sometimes. I've just remembered that we ended up pushing loads of furniture up against walls so he couldn't walk behind them and then surprise her and we dismantled our bed so they couldn't come out from under the bed and cause surprise. Darcy wet herself or sprayed a few times from fear too.
> 
> ...


Thanks @Psygon thats really helpful!

I'm going to give it at least 2 days fully separated, and then start the slow re-introductions using some of the methods you suggested.

Luna is very scared of her sister but it sounds like your poor girl was much more nervous, ours hasn't weed herself, apart from the first fight.

They've been really good separated today, Nova has been chilling in the living room and garden. Luna has been in the spare room asleep most of the day but we've opened the door a couple of times for her to explore whilst her sister is in the garden but she's only ventured down once. I've attached a picture of her currently on the cat hammock in the spare room. I'm not sure if this is a positive thing or not, but she can see Nova in the garden, but Nova can't see her so she can observe her from a distance without any eye contact.

Keeping them in our room is not possible as my partner has a strict "no cats sleeping in the bedroom" rule. It was part of the conditions when the we got them.

Should I be worried about Luna being confined to a room? She seems happy enough up there and we have a camera to keep an eye on her. Should I feel as guilty as I do?


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Bethanjane22 said:


> Thanks @Psygon thats really helpful!
> 
> I'm going to give it at least 2 days fully separated, and then start the slow re-introductions using some of the methods you suggested.
> 
> ...


I think the additional feliways are having a calming effect on Nova too


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## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

Well... We actually had an incident between Ed and Darcy last night. Quite strange timing given I was just replying to this yesterday!

Late on in the evening we could hear the tom cat I mentioned outside yowling. This set both of them on edge but we thought we had it contained. Then when we went to bed Darcy got a little spooked by something and we ended up on full growls and big fluffy tails. It always seems more scary when it happens at night time.

Anyway, they were swiftly separated. Then placed in their calming vests. Lots of reassurance for both of them and I fell asleep in our spare room while talking to Ed. At this point Darcy was on my bed with my husband. Woke up this morning. Ed and Darcy were cuddled up at my feet. They are both seemingly fine again.



Bethanjane22 said:


> Thanks @Psygon thats really helpful!
> 
> I'm going to give it at least 2 days fully separated, and then start the slow re-introductions using some of the methods you suggested.
> 
> ...


If Luna seems ok in the spare room, and you are also going in and spending time with her then I wouldn't be too worried about her. The pictures seem to show she is quite relaxed so I think it is ok.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Oh no! Sorry to hear your two have been bickering again! Glad it was all resolved pretty quickly.

We’ve attempted some joint playtime today but I don’t think they were ready. Luna hissed and moaned at Nova and Nova did the same back. Sadly no progress today, but tomorrow is another day. Thankfully we’ll be back to a schedule tomorrow with work. So as Luna has been cooped up most of the weekend, I’ll keep Nova up with me and Luna can stretch her legs a bit for the day. Then she can go back to her safe room then in the evening and Nova can have the run of the house. 

I’ll keep trying everyday to get them to interact with limited aggression. Hopefully we can see some progress soon. Nova seems to miss her sister. She keeps walking around the house looking for her, and if she’s shut away for the night she’s very chatty and purry in the morning as if she’s feeling the loneliness. She seems so unsettled, whereas Luna when she’s in her safe room and has had some food is far more settled and relaxed. 

I’m speaking to my vet tomorrow so hopefully I can get them both checked over to make sure it’s nothing physical.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi @Bethanjane22

Personally I wouldn't try and encourage joint playtime with them for the moment. The reason I say this is because both cats seem to have boundary issues with each other at present.

With cats, respecting another's personal space is very important in cat etiquette. At present either one or both cats really fears the other one invading their personal space. This is something they will have to work out for themselves over time , rebuilding trust gradually (and I hope they will )

Play is basically "mock" hunting, and cats are by nature solitary hunters, they do not hunt in pairs. So it is best, at least for now, if they have separate playtime on their own with you, preferably when the other cat is out of the room, or asleep elsewhere in the house.

As I recall you are feeding them in separate rooms and this is good , so they are out of each other's view when eating.

However occasions when they're quite near each other and staying calm are the times I would reward them with treats and praise. But go to the cats with the treats rather than bring them to you, so the distancing protocol the cats prefer between each other at present is still observed.

I do understand it is tempting to try and get them both interacting playfully again together, but they need to make up their own minds that they are non-threatening to each other. You can give them supervised opportunities to be together (as you are doing). Well done!


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Hi @Bethanjane22
> 
> Personally I wouldn't try and encourage joint playtime with them for the moment. The reason I say this is because both cats seem to have boundary issues with each other at present.
> 
> ...


Thanks @chillminx

Well we just had some joint play time, Nova was not very interested in Luna, unless she got very close to her. Luna was very wary of Nova and only played with the toy when it was near her. I filmed the play time so that if the vet wanted to see how they interact during play I could show them.

It went well for the most part, however ended not so well.

I have linked the video of the last few seconds. After which Nova went into the garden, we just ushered her away and she went. Then we let Luna calm down and she made her way back to her safe room, where I went up to see her, gave her some love and a couple of treats. She's now asleep you there.

In terms of supervised time together, what is the best way to do this and where? Nova has the living room to sleep in now at night: and Luna has the spare room. The ply options are the garden, the hall way, or the kitchen. How do I know when they want to see one another if I have to keep them separated? I don't want to do this wrong. Sorry for the 20 questions.

This is the link to the video; it's currently still uploading

Thanks again for all your advice, it's so appreciated.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Bethanjane22 said:


> Thanks @chillminx
> 
> Well we just had some joint play time, Nova was not very interested in Luna, unless she got very close to her. Luna was very wary of Nova and only played with the toy when it was near her. I filmed the play time so that if the vet wanted to see how they interact during play I could show them.
> 
> ...


please ignore the state on me, I'd not long got out of the shower and I'm running on very little sleep at the moment :Banghead


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Goodness me, that was awful hun! Shocking and very upsetting to see. I am not surprised you are stressed! I would be too!

The incident on your video exemplifies what I meant earlier. It is best to do everything to avoid those kind of awful confrontations between them, as they are really harmful to their relationship. The more confrontations like that between them, the harder it will be to mend their relationship.

So it is really is safest not to play with them in the presence of each other.

Remember, that when a cat is playing with you, (i.e. hunting) they are in a state of heightened awareness and all their senses are sharpened. This is why you don't want them playing in front of each other right now. There is too much risk of redirected aggression from the hunter to the watcher. .

What did you have in your hand btw? Was it food of some kind? If so it will have accentuated the hunting aspect of the game. And made it more likely she would get annoyed with her sister watching. At present I would only use food or treats as rewards to both cats at the same time. Not to one with the other cat watching. (I may be wrong that you had food in your hand, sorry if so )

With regard to supervision, I really meant that if the cats calmly go looking for each other or happen to be in the same room together that keeping an eye on them would be wise. I wouldn't actively bring them together. So the impetus to be together comes from them. I realise it means you being on your toes a lot of the time. Sorry!  the supervision would be so you can jump in and put a cushion between them the instant there is any sign of aggro. And then shepherd one cat out of the room to a safe place. So it is about nipping things in the bud rather than having to deal with potentially high risk situations like the one in your video.

EDIT: in view of the high level of tension between the cats I would actually intervene with the cushion method as soon as there is any hissing. Because we have learnt with these two that hissing may now be a prelude to aggression, not just a warning.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Goodness me, that was awful hun! Shocking and very upsetting to see. I am not surprised you are stressed! I would be too!
> 
> The incident on your video exemplifies what I meant earlier. It is best to do everything to avoid those kind of awful confrontations between them, as they are really harmful to their relationship. The more confrontations like that between them, the harder it will be to mend their relationship.
> 
> ...


Yeah it's so shocking to see, I can't even watch the video back it's too upsetting.

Ok I will avoid playing with them together, but let them tell me when they want to be together. Luna is up in her safe room, with the door shut. Do you think it's best I leave the door open? I'll make sure Nova doesn't go up looking for her. Nova is usually glued to my side anyway.

This is what I had in my hand, it's a cat dancer toy, they like it because it's like a bug which they love chasing in the garden.

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/cat_toys/cat_dangler/dangler_pole/109379

I'll definitely intervene if any hissing occurs on either side. I'll let them dictate what hen they feel like seeing eachother.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Ah yes, the Cat Dancer! That's a good toy! It does really simulate hunting as the metal rod becomes almost invisible when it is moving and the cat sees only the "bug" on the end.

However, it does mean the chaser (the hunter) gets very excited, and excitement is not something you want when the other cat is around. Because excitement can all too easily turn to redirected aggression towards the other cat. It is like they are saying " keep away from my prey!".

The other thing to mention is that with those kind of toys even when you are playing with one cat alone, I would always have some treats handy so after they have caught "the prey" (the toy bug) a couple of times you can give them a treat. What this does is lower the frustration levels of the cat. Because any hunting in the wild involves a certain amount of frustration as cats do not always catch prey every time they try. Under normal circs this would not be a problem with Luna and Nova with the toys and they would take it in their stride. But atm we need to keep feelings soothed and avoid frustrations as much as possible.

After an episode like that one I would keep them apart probably until this evening at least . They are both shocked and upset. Then I would open the doors and see what they do. Luna may choose to wander downstairs. Be watchful and intervene with holding the cushion between them if necessary. It is a useful way of breaking tension.

If you are worried about them seeing each other today, then leave it until tomorrow morning.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Ah yes, the Cat Dancer! That's a good toy! It does really simulate hunting as the metal rod becomes almost invisible when it is moving and the cat sees only the "bug" on the end.
> 
> However, it does mean the chaser (the hunter) gets very excited, and excitement is not something you want when the other cat is around. Because excitement can all too easily turn to redirected aggression towards the other cat. It is like they are saying " keep away from my prey!".
> 
> ...


Yeah it's a great toy, but doesn't last very long!

Thats a really great tip, I'll make sure to treat them when they catch the bug!

I will take Luna's lead and will keep an eye on her and is she's at the door wanting to come out I'll open the door for her and keep an eye with a pillow at the ready.

Should I avoid letting Nova go up to Luna's safe space so that she doesn't feel threatened?

Is it better to let the more wary of the two take the lead?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Yes, I think it's best to let the more wary cat take the lead at present.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Yes, I think it's best to let the more wary cat take the lead at present.


Thanks @chillminx we will let Luna take the lead and decide what she is comfortable doing.

If she shows any signs of aggression (growling, hissing etc.) should we take her back to her safe space?

thanks again for all your help xx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Yes, it is best to take her back to her safe space if she shows aggression to Nova. .

Though having said that I might be inclined to let one hiss go, depending on how Nova reacts to the hiss from Luna.. But more than one hiss from Luna I think I'd escort her gently back to her safe room. Make sure she doesn't see it as a punishment. e.g. give her some treats and strokes when she is back in her room. x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Yes, it is best to take her back to her safe space if she shows aggression to Nova. .
> 
> Though having said that I might be inclined to let one hiss go, depending on how Nova reacts to the hiss from Luna.. But more than one hiss from Luna I think I'd escort her gently back to her safe room. Make sure she doesn't see it as a punishment. e.g. give her some treats and strokes when she is back in her room. x


Ok that's given me something to work with. I was worried that taking her back up the her safe room all the time would make her sad or feel like she's being punished. Sadly Nova cannot be shut away is she knows we're awake or in the house somewhere. She is just too needy and has to be near one of us at all times.

Luna however settles after a little while, so is easier to keep contained.

I'm going to try letting Luna lead as of tomorrow, but will be on hand to step in should the need arise.

I wish there was a way I could thank you in more than just words because your advice and guidance this past week has been invaluable. So a million thank you's xx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

If Luna and Nova can start getting on with each other again that will be the biggest reward of all hun xx


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Well @chillminx I am happy to report some very minor progress.

Last night my OH, Nova and I were in the living room, and I heard Luna upstairs whining at the door, so I went up and opened the door, gave her a fuss and then let her make her own way down the stairs. We decided to keep the living room door closed (it's glass so they could both see through it), and we let them get used to one another through the glass first. After they had both settled down (we had a few hisses from Luna) I opened the door a bit as Luna was now pawing the door to come in. My OH was ready with a cushion, just in case. However Nova was very good and let Luna come in, have a sniff around and she just observed. We did have to step in with the cushion a couple of times as Nova just wanted to go where Luna was and we knew it would set her off if Nova got too close. This went on for about 20 minutes, then Nova decided to go and explore the house instead. So we pushed the door shut and she went up to Luna's safe room for a good sniff and then has a little snooze on Luna's bed (thanks Nova for helping with the scent swapping!).

We kept them apart then for the rest of the night.

We had another bit of time this morning where they were together in the same room after breakfast. Nova even let Luna walk past her whilst she was finishing some scraps from her food bowl.

I have got Nova up with me today while I work, so Luna can have some time exploring the house. I intend to use the doorstop to open the door enough for them to see and smell one another but not have any contact. That way, if Luna wants to come up she can see that her sister is here, but she can then walk away if she doesn't feel comfortable without the risk of her sister following or chasing her.

I'm feeling a bit more optimistic today.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

That sounds very promising @Bethanjane22 - excellent.  You have done very well, and your OH sounds as though he is being supportive, which is really good to hear. 

I am hoping and hoping this gentle progress with Luna and Nova continues.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

So today we’ve had some more gentle progress. Kept them separated but not confined today. Then tonight I decided to try and feed them together like they’ve always been fed before. I know many have cautioned against this for good reason, however my two have eaten side by side since before I even got them. So tonight I tried it, and it was like before: they both sat in their “spot” when I said sit, and then ate ALL of their food. This is the first night Nova has eaten all her food. Every other night this week she has eaten 1/3 and then sat by the door of the room her sister was in. 

At one point they even went to do their little swappy thing (where half way through they swap bowls) but then seemed to realize “oh I don’t like you at the moment” so thought better of it.

After food they sat close to one another and groomed separately. It was lovely to watch. We had a bit of hissing after that as they both tried to catch a fly, then Luna decided she wanted to go catch bugs in the garden and Nova wanted some snuggles. 

Very small progress, but at the moment I’ll take any progress over none.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Aww bless them, it's lovely they were able to eat together, in harmony. And great that Nova ate all her food! xx

It sounds as though some elements of normal life have returned - which is a big relief!!! If they will accept eating near each other that is big progress. I'd focus on that aspect for a while hun, so they can get used to it. At least during mealtimes they will show each other tolerance.

Btw, your kitchen looks lovely and it's so tidy!  I wouldn't dare show mine, it is cluttered compared with yours.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

They've always eaten together and I think Nova was struggling with the change to the routine, hence her not eating properly. We did the same again this morning, we had a couple of hisses before and after, when they were in each others space, but now they are separated because my OH & I have to get on with work so cant supervise completely. 

Last night they spent time together in the living room, Luna came in when Nova was sleeping which allowed her to have some time to wander around. She then went to go and sit on the shelf behind the sofa, but clocked her sister sleeping and started to growl and hiss at poor sleeping Nova! She eventually calmed down and made it to her shelf, and Nova then got off the sofa to lay somewhere else. They stayed in the same room for about 3 hours. 

Aww thanks, my OH is very house proud, so I can't take all the credit! It was his house before I moved in, I've just improved it 

I'm sorry for posting so many updates, but when I've been looking through the forum, I have seen a lot of threads like this, but they usually don't have many updates or show what the outcome was in the end. I just thought it may be beneficial for other cat owners who are going through the same thing. I hope the community and moderators won't mind!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Personally I love all your updates as they give me a better idea of what's happening with Luna and Nova. . Your posts are engaging and informative and I am sure the moderators don't mind how many updates you post. If any forum member minds, (which I doubt) they don't have to read your updates if they don't want to, LOL. 

I am glad the girls were able to eat near each other again OK this morning. This is very encouraging. As well as spending 3 hrs in the same room together yesterday. x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

So I just had my call with the vet, and she said that we are doing a lot of the right things. She said to continue with the Zylkene, Feliway and calming spot on. She said separating them is the best thing to do and slow re-introductions, however because they are litter mates separation could be causing them some stress as they are so used to one another. She said it sounds especially apparent with Nova and her loss of appetite unless she is with her sister. So she said to continue feeding together and also to try and give them more time together and allow them to try and sort things out together. She said not to let them fight, but don't necessarily intervene after every growl, hiss or swipe, but to let Nova learn that Luna is not happy to be approached at the moment and that she needs space. 

They suggested I call back early next week to update them and if things don't improve, they want to give them both a check up to make sure there is nothing medically wrong with either of them. 

If they are physically fine, then she will refer me to a behaviourist for further advice and support. 

Thanks again


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## Jackie C (Feb 16, 2016)

Bethanjane22 said:


> So I just had my call with the vet, and she said that we are doing a lot of the right things. She said to continue with the Zylkene, Feliway and calming spot on. She said separating them is the best thing to do and slow re-introductions, however because they are litter mates separation could be causing them some stress as they are so used to one another. She said it sounds especially apparent with Nova and her loss of appetite unless she is with her sister. So she said to continue feeding together and also to try and give them more time together and allow them to try and sort things out together. She said not to let them fight, but don't necessarily intervene after every growl, hiss or swipe, but to let Nova learn that Luna is not happy to be approached at the moment and that she needs space.
> 
> They suggested I call back early next week to update them and if things don't improve, they want to give them both a check up to make sure there is nothing medically wrong with either of them.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have a good vet there.
It might be worth checking out "Jackson Galaxy" on youtube as well, he's a cat behaviourist, and he's fabulous. (He also has a show called, 'My Cat from Hell' and some shows have situations similar to yours).


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Good Morning Everyone 

Yesterday was a good day. The girls ate breakfast and dinner together with no problems, spent time in the garden with us together with no problems, and even both slept in the living room while we watched TV last night. We couldn't quite believe it!

We still separated them overnight and when they were not supervised but other than that, the doors have all been open and we've been letting them explore and figure things out. 

As I type this, they are both in the room with me, Nova is asleep on the armchair and Luna is asleep on the bed. They seem very relaxed. 

We have still had the odd hiss, but usually when Luna feels a bit trapped (if Nova is in a doorway and she wants to go through it, or if she is up high and then Nova decides to go up an explore too). We've also had some playfulness too. They were following each other around one of our plants yesterday, it was quite sweet to see. There was no hissing, just a couple of playful bats towards one another. 

I think Luna has found her confidence again, which I think is due to the Zylkene, as we've been giving her 1 1/2 capsules a day (75mg capsules). 

We also got a new butterfly chaser toy yesterday which Nova is OBSESSED with, she loves it! 

Hopefully things continue to improve, I'm just following their lead :Cat


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Bethanjane22 - this is wonderful news hun! I am so pleased !! It does sound as though there has been real, genuine progress 

I think you are managing the situation very well. x

Fingers crossed things will continue in this vein now.

Glad the Zylkene is working for Luna - it helps my cat who goes through periods of being stressed by my neighbour's 2 cats.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> @Bethanjane22 - this is wonderful news hun! I am so pleased !! It does sound as though there has been real, genuine progress
> 
> I think you are managing the situation very well. x
> 
> ...


Since posting that earlier, we've even had some attempted play! However Luna wasn't quite ready so hissed at Nova, but she didn't run away from her.

I also caught them sitting on the stairs together and genuinely could have cried!! (see picture).

We've ordered some frosted window film which should arrive by Monday, so we can make sure they don't have any run ins with the tom cats again. We've noticed this week that there are a couple of big toms roaming the streets spraying on houses, so we are keeping an eye out and shooing away any we see near our house. Sadly our house doesn't have a front garden, its just a bit of chippings and a few paving stones which lead to the house. Otherwise I'd put a cat deterrent out there.

Will keep you posted :Cat


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Awww, what a fabulous photo! I'm chuffed to bits!! Just what I needed to cheer me up at present. What good girls they are. x I can imagine it is a huge relief for you hun.  

Yes, the window film is a very good idea. I still have mine on the lower part of the French Windows, even though the cat who I was protecting is no longer with me (RIP 2019). I no longer notice the film and one never knows when it may come in useful. 

Looking forward to next update.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

I know, I couldn't quite believe my eyes! I just froze, grabbed my phone and didn't want to move as they looked so perfect :Cat:Cat

Well my OH thinks it would work well for us for privacy too. As I mentioned, (and as shown in the previous picture of the kitchen) our front window is only about 3-4 feet from the pavement, so sometimes when we're eating dinner its like having an audience. It's not a main road, but still we have people walking past quite frequently. We also have kids stopping to look at the cats when they sit in the window, which can get a bit annoying when I'm there in my dressing gown, with messy hair, just trying to make a cup of coffee!! :Stop

Glad the photo helped to cheer you up a bit! xx


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## Beautiful Storm (Feb 26, 2020)

Hi @Bethanjane22, I have been following your post but have not contributed because I have no useful advice to give. However I just want to say how beautiful your girls are. It must have been heartbreaking for you when they fell out. I am absolutely delighted to see how well things are going in healing their rift, and I've got everything crossed that your lovely girls continue to make the same level of progress.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Beautiful Storm said:


> Hi @Bethanjane22, I have been following your post but have not contributed because I have no useful advice to give. However I just want to say how beautiful your girls are. It must have been heartbreaking for you when they fell out. I am absolutely delighted to see how well things are going in healing their rift, and I've got everything crossed that your lovely girls continue to make the same level of progress.


Thank you @Beautiful Storm :Cat

They're my little babies and it has been absolutely devastating to see them like this. They have always been so loving with each other!

I will keep this thread updated so that anyone who is interested can check on their progress.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Good Morning!

We had some more progress yesterday. They spent time together out in the garden, we left them unsupervised while we went for a walk (I did check our home cameras every 5 minute ) the they a dinner together and both settled in the living room with us. We separated them at night and probably will again tonight so that they still have time to themselves. 

This morning, I let them both out of their rooms and they both came into the bedroom to see us, it started to feel like normality again. 

We've even had some playful behaviour today! Luna has a mad 5 minutes at least once a day where she will run around the house like a mad thing! Today she playfully chased her sister and vice versa, but they didn't do any play fighting like they normally do. I think they're still respecting boundaries. 

Then the biggest shocker of the morning, they both lay on their window hammock at the same time!! Luna did hiss at Nova because she tried to get up on the top level too, but Nova got the message and went back down. 

I'm quietly optimistic, but don't want to jynx anything. So I'm taking every day a it comes.

Hope everyone has a good Friday x


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Bethanjane22 - this is wonderful news! Well done hun, and well done Luna and Nova :Cat! I am so happy!:Singing

But like you I do not want to be over confident and jinx things, so I will keep calm and wait for next update.

[very excited though!:Joyful]


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

I think I may have jinxed it already! 

We just had a squabble over the window hammock. Nova has claimed top bunk and won't let Luna on it at all, not even the bottom bunk! :Meh

So we've separated them for a little time out. You wouldn't think we had many other windows, a cat tree and the fact that it is a 2 tier widow seat! Bloody cats!

Hopefully just a little tantrum and nothing more!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Oops! . 

Hopefully, as you say it is just a minor 'blip'. I think both of them are probably still feeling overly protective of places in the home they regard as "their" territory. Still not yet quite ready to share.. 

It is typical that cats will find the same resting place attractive at the same time, LOL, even though there are other resting place options available to them. 

Fingers crossed harmony is restored after a short time apart. x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Oops! .
> 
> Hopefully, as you say it is just a minor 'blip'. I think both of them are probably still feeling overly protective of places in the home they regard as "their" territory. Still not yet quite ready to share..
> 
> ...


I think Luna is feeling a bit on edge today. My OH has been cleaning and sorting stuff out so I think all the noise has unsettled her and made her feel a bit anxious.

We've popped her into her safe room so she can have some time on her own as she was starting to get wary of her sister again, and Nova wasn't allowing her the space she needed.

I'm curious though. I stopped giving Nova the Zylkene yesterday, would that make a difference? Luna is still on it.

Hopefully a blip and harmony is restored once things have quieted down later! x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

So we've had some territorial aggression today. Luna was up on the top perch of the cat tree, and Nova jumped up onto the same perch, hissing ensued, and Nova swatted at Luna until she got down. I took Nova off the top and put Luna back up there so she felt safe.

We have this cat hammock coming tomorrow, but are not sure where to put it. Should we put it further away from the cat tree so they have separated spaces? Or should we put them near one another?

Trixie Hammock for Wall Mounting, 54 x 28 x 33 cm https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00Y1D5TXA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_1xEMEbEG4ZDN1

Nova is now sulking on the floor even though there is a cat cave and 3 other levels to the cat tree.

They've never had this sort of issue before. It's frustrating because I ordered the cat tree before they started arguing, wish I'd got one with 2 high beds now

They were happy with the wall mounted beds but they ripped out of our stupidly thin plasterboard walls. Hoping this hammock will stay up!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Bethanjane22 said:


> <snip>
> ... but they ripped out of our stupidly thin plasterboard walls. Hoping this hammock will stay up!


You need to find the studs the plasterboard is attached to and screw into those. If they aren't in the right places for your hammock then screw a piece of wood across and attach the hammock to that. You can buy stud detectors quite cheaply


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

So far so good today, just one hiss from Luna when Nova tried to climb up where she was.

We’ve installed our frosted window film which looks great! 

We’ve also installed the new cat hammock so they have more than one option in the living room to hopefully limit the squabbles.

Hope everyone is having a good weekend!


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## ChaosCat (Dec 7, 2017)

It does look great!
Hope the peace keeps.


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## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

Bethanjane22 said:


> So far so good today, just one hiss from Luna when Nova tried to climb up where she was.
> 
> We've installed our frosted window film which looks great!
> 
> ...


The windows look very smart!


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Psygon said:


> The windows look very smart!


Thanks! We're pleasantly surprised at how nice they look and how easy the film was to apply.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Little update:

So after the brief hiss this morning, we’ve had a day with no other altercations! They’ve just kept to themselves today which has been lovely! As I type I’ve got one on the top of the cat tree and one on the new wall hammock behind me :Cat

I’m a cautiously optimistic cat mama today!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

A day without altercations is excellent news!  Lovely you have new wall hammock.....and the windows look smart with the film on them.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

We’ve had another good day :Cat 

A couple of hisses earlier in the day but we left them alone a couple of times today and they were fine. 

Tonight they’ve been out in the garden, so I went out to get them in but couldn’t see them. So started looking for them and came across this (picture) :Cat:Cat

This is the closest they’ve been in since falling out. I’m again quietly hopeful :Shamefullyembarrased


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## ChaosCat (Dec 7, 2017)

That looks like real peace! Hope things continue like that.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Bethanjane22 - awww what a fabulous photo! They look so comfortable together, bless them.  Such pretty girls xx

Fingers crossed hun.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

So after a good couple of days we decided last night to try them back in their old routine. We did this because we didn't want them getting too used to the new sleeping arrangements as they are not practical long term. 

We've never allowed the cats to sleep in our room, mainly because my OH is a very light sleeper so having 2 cats roaming around at night is not conducive to a good nights sleep. We had tried allowing them to have the run of the house except our bedroom, but that resulted in 2 needy cats clawing the door in the early hours of the morning. So we settled on making their night time room the kitchen. We had comfy beds, scratching post, toys, water, litter tray etc. This was their routine and had been for over a year. 

So last night when we were ready for bed, the cats followed us into the kitchen, we fed them their supper, made sure they had everything and went up to bed, shutting the door behind us. 

Safe to say, I couldn't sleep. I kept watching them on our kitchen camera and noticed they were unsettled (I'm guessing because they had gotten used to the new arrangements). However after about 40 minutes of wandering around, jumping up on the counters, meowing occasionally, and generally just looking confused, they both settled. 

We were not awoken by any cat fights in the night, and when I checked the camera this morning, it seems everything was harmonious. I think they even shared the same bed at one point.

I have noticed that they will still occasionally swipe at one another if one gets too close to the other. Is this ok or should I be concerned? It never escalates into anything, and isn't accompanied by hissing or growling. They've just never swiped each other prior to the recent fighting. 

We're hoping for another harmonious day and night.

:Cat:Cat


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Excellent news @Bethanjane22 !  I am delighted! xx.

I wouldn't be too worried about the occasional swipes, if that's all they are.

Onwards and upwards hun - well done!!!


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Excellent news @Bethanjane22 !  I am delighted! xx.
> 
> I wouldn't be too worried about the occasional swipes, if that's all they are.
> 
> Onwards and upwards hun - well done!!!


Thanks @chillminx they've made great progress!

I just observed something though, Luna went up to Nova and pawed at her back (like a swipe). Nova didn't do anything back, then I decided to film their interaction and captured this video, which shows Nova just walking past Luna and Luna reacting with an aggressive hiss. I'm totally unprovoked.

I saw her so this the other day too where she ran towards Nova and hissed right in her face.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I am not sure which cat is which, but in your video one cat did not like the other one going behind her, even though the one who went behind and under the chair was doing so quite innocently IMO. It is about trust issues again and misunderstandings. And maybe stems from the original upset in the garden where as I recall one cat jumped unintentionally on the other one from behind after the scare with the bird. The flicking tails show nervousness, not being sure etc.

The hissing in the video is one cat giving a warning to the other not to come closer. I am not sure which cat hissed, but if it was the cat who went behind the other one then she hissed because the other one swung round quickly.

My girls do this sometimes, if one gets too close to the other and makes them feel they're sneaking up on them. I always distract them by saying "now girls, be nice to each other please" in a gentle voice and they look at me and stop.  I find with mine it's better to nip things in the bud before they start bopping each other, as with my two girls bopping or swiping is sometimes the next step.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Hi @chillminx

It was Nova who went behind Luna after Luna had bopped Nova on the back.

Luna turned around quickly and hissed at Nova. After the clip ends, I do say to them, 'come on now girls stop being silly'.

I'm just so worried about things going backwards. It knocked me so much when they started fighting that the thought of it happening again is just too much to bear.

The original upset was from Luna (the darker coloured one) jumping down onto Nova (the lighter coloured one) and then Nova chasing her around the garden.

I'm just a worrier and see every little 'bad point' as it all going backwards.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Bethanjane22 said:


> Hi @chillminx
> 
> It was Nova who went behind Luna after Luna had bopped Nova on the back.
> 
> ...


Also something else I have just observed. Nova was asleep on the armchair under a blanket, then Luna came over to the chair, jumped up and started making a high pitched growl noise and hissed at her sister. Nova was asleep, and didn't do anything to provoke this. Luna just went out of her way to be aggressive towards Nova.

This is getting more peculiar by the day. Last week she was running away scared of her, and now this week she is going up to her and being outwardly aggressive.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Yes I agree things like that are a bit worrying because it is not purely reactive, i.e. Luna was instigating the negative behaviour without any input from Nova.

Is Luna still on the Zylkene? if so I would take her off it (or reduce the dose) and see it makes any difference. Zylkene can make a cat feel more confident (though not more aggressive as such) but I wonder if Luna is feeling more confident she now wants to put Nova in her place.

It does make me feel a bit uneasy if Luna goes out of her way to be stroppy with Nova. I assume territorial behaviour is the cause, and that Luna wants Nova to remove herself from anywhere that she (Luna) regards as her own resting place.

It seems that this whole incident in the garden has made both girls more territorial. Which can happen anyway as cats mature. (your two are still only young adults as I recall?) My 2 girls did not really start getting stroppy with each other over territory until they were about 4 yrs old. It is a shame when it happens but cats are after all very territorial creatures and I always think we humans are very lucky they are prepared to live as peaceably together with us as they do - for the most part.

Probably if it were me I would distract Luna if she shows such behaviour and (if she is calm) I'd pick her up, remove her from the area, take her to another room and fuss her and give her treats. That sounds like rewarding bad behaviour but it is done more as a reassurance that she is "special".Though that particular behaviour to Nova is bullying, it is due to Luna's underlying feelings of insecurity.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Yes I agree things like that are a bit worrying because it is not purely reactive, i.e. Luna was instigating the negative behaviour without any input from Nova.
> 
> Is Luna still on the Zylkene? if so I would take her off it (or reduce the dose) and see it makes any difference. Zylkene can make a cat feel more confident (though not more aggressive as such) but I wonder if Luna is feeling more confident she now wants to put Nova in her place.
> 
> ...


I had wondered whether it may have been the Zylkene as I have been giving Luna 1.5 capsules a day. I'll try reducing her down over a few days to see if that helps things improve. The last thing I want is for Nova to be reactive to Luna's bullying and for the fighting to start up again.

It's funny because the chair in question is never really used by either of them regularly, it's just because I am in the room, they both want to be in here.

I am worried that this behaviour has started so soon, with them not even being 2 years old yet. We really don't have the space for 2 separate territories within our home. They either need to co-exist, or they will have to become only cats, with one going to live elsewhere on their own. However, I'm worried if it does come to that, that the one left behind will miss the other for company. It is a catch-22 situation.

It is all very upsetting and has really impacted my mental health at a time when it was already weakened.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I sympathise, it is not what you needed right now what with all the stress of COVID going on at present . But you have made enormous strides with these girls getting them back on a better footing with each other and a more harmonious household as a result. Please don't lose heart hun, you have done ever so well, so chin up and keep at it. 

I do wonder if the fact everyone is home all the time right now has a bearing on the girls being more tetchy, less relaxed with each other. Because it is a change to their normal routine, and cats hate changes. It can't be helped of course, no-one's fault, and may just be a case of riding things out until the lock down is ended. Are the girls used to being alone in the daytime?


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> I sympathise, it is not what you needed right now what with all the stress of COVID going on at present . But you have made enormous strides with these girls getting them back on a better footing with each other and a more harmonious household as a result. Please don't lose heart hun, you have done ever so well, so chin up and keep at it.
> 
> I do wonder if the fact everyone is home all the time right now has a bearing on the girls being more tetchy, less relaxed with each other. Because it is a change to their normal routine, and cats hate changes. It can't be helped of course, no-one's fault, and may just be a case of riding things out until the lock down is ended. Are the girls used to being alone in the daytime?


Thank you, I appreciate the support and reassurance. I need to stop focusing on the little negatives and look at the big picture. I just worry about the long term that's all.

They're not used to being completely alone as my partner is based from home, but does often go out for meeting etc. under normal circumstances. So they are used to someone being home part of the day at least. The only times they are ever left alone all day is when my OH is away or in meetings all day, and I am in work all day, or we are on holiday and the cat sitter is looking after them.

I really hope we can get through this.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Me too hun! But I have every confidence you will get through it. The signs are very good .


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Just a quick update today. I think this picture says enough :Cat

Taking each day as it comes.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Awww, that is a fabulous photo! So sweet. x. Thanks for sharing hun.  

Lovely fluffy cuddly girls - looks like they are on the way to being good pals again. xx


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Awww, that is a fabulous photo! So sweet. x. Thanks for sharing hun.
> 
> Lovely fluffy cuddly girls - looks like they are on the way to being good pals again. xx


They've been by each other for about an hour now, which is so lovely to see!

They'll also be happy to know that their favourite food is back in stock on Zooplus so I've placed a large order for them 

I've also started using Bach Rescue Remedy for myself today, and it has already started helping me feel more relaxed :Cat

I can't thank you all enough for your advice and support. I will continue to update occasionally and am enjoying being a more active member on here. xx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I hope this is the beginning of the full reinstatement of harmonious times for the girls  

I am glad the Rescue Remedy is helping you feel more serene.  I think I may try it again myself. I remember using it years ago, in the 1970's and it did seem to help....x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Just another little update:

We had a good day yesterday, so squabbling, aside from over sleeping areas. They both seem to always want to be where the other is sleeping. 

Just this morning, Nova settled herself on the bottom level of the window hammock. Luna then jumped up to the windowsill to go and sit on the top one, but Nova hissed and swiped at her. I really hope this doesn't continue. We've provided ample high beds and spaces for them to rest, but they just seem to want what the other has all the time! I'm hoping it'll just phase out once they've fully learned to trust each other again, but we'll have to wait and see.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

It may also be that Nova is apprehensive sometimes of Luna being too close to her, feeling she is invading her personal space. Adult cats are often very protective of their personal space when it comes to other cats, even a sibling. Luckily for us they are not usually so protective of their personal space when it comes to humans. 

When Luna and Nova do feel OK lying or sitting close to each other I wonder if it is Nova who comes and settles close to Luna or the other way round? 

It is nice that they want to be together in the same area, but both cats may not always feel they want want to be near each other at the same time.

I hope they settle down soon x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> It may also be that Nova is apprehensive sometimes of Luna being too close to her, feeling she is invading her personal space. Adult cats are often very protective of their personal space when it comes to other cats, even a sibling. Luckily for us they are not usually so protective of their personal space when it comes to humans.
> 
> When Luna and Nova do feel OK lying or sitting close to each other I wonder if it is Nova who comes and settles close to Luna or the other way round?
> 
> ...


I think it may have something to do with that. I think the trust has been damaged both ways, so I think Nova is now apprehensive of Luna as she has been hissed at so much before.

Well when they lay together the other day, it was Nova who jumped up next to Luna. Luna looked at her and then turned around and went back to sleep. They've been sleeping in the kitchen together at nights and seem harmonious enough when I check the cameras in the morning. They've even been sharing a chair to sleep on. I caught them both playing with a toy last night too which was sweet.

They basically sit face to face when they come for treats, and their hairball paste, they cant get enough of the stuff!

We're just letting them do what they're happy with, and giving them plenty of outside time to help them burn some energy. They love hunting flies! I just have to make sure no outside cats come near the fences. The little buggers walk along our neighbours fence and peer over into the garden. Nova acts like a little floozy and rolls on her back for them! :Facepalm


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I can imagine you spend a lot of time each day cuddling your two, they look so flooffy and beautiful to cuddle! xx 

I really, really miss my longhaired boy, (he died suddenly in Dec 2019) he was gorgeous to cuddle and he did wonders for my emotional wellbeing. I love the other 4, but none of them are so keen on being cuddled as he was. :Bawling


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

You are doing all the right things hun, I am sure it will work out. x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

So we’ve had a good day again with no incidents. We’ve taken down the window hammock as that seemed to be causing arguments over who could sit at the top! Now neither of them can use it! 

I’ve noticed they’re both wanting to use the same litter tray, even though we have 2 now. One is completely untouched everyday. They both like the one in the downstairs loo. 

However when I’ve been cleaning it out, I’ve noticed that one of them seems to be peeing in a spray rather than in one solid stream (which would normally form a clump). It seems to be quite erratic in the tray with little droplets all over the litter (none on the walls of the tray). I’m guessing it’s Luna as she is the one who doesn’t know how to cover her business. 

I only started noticing it today. I’ve been trying to watch them using the tray to see what’s happening but the sneaky buggers always seem to do it in stealth mode! 

I’ll try and find out what’s happening tomorrow.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Sorry about the window hammock - what a shame! 

What kind of quantity is there in the tray of 'sprayed' urine? Enough to count as a normal size pee? If there is not much at a time I would be concerned one of them might have cystitis. Sometimes this can present as droplets sprinkled over the litter as the cat finds it too painful to do a proper pee.

I'm hoping that's not the cause, and instead the explanation is that one girl is definitely spraying urine - although I would usually expect to see urine on the walls of the litter tray as well as droplets on the litter, when they spray. Perhaps it all ran down the walls of the tray before you emptied the tray?

Incidentally, when cats do not cover their business it is for territorial reasons. i.e. the cat chooses to display their deposits to any passing cat (including to their feline housemate(s)). This is territorial behaviour.

Cats who do choose to cover their business are cautious cats whose survival instinct tells them to bury their deposits to hide the scent from passing predators.

So if is always Luna who leaves her deposits uncovered that tells us indisputably that Luna is the more assertively territorial of your 2 girls.

It is a pity they won't use more trays as litter trays can quite often be a source of competition and upsets between cats who share them. Ideally there should be a minimum of 3 litter trays for a household of 2 cats. I suppose there isn't room in the downstairs loo for another tray? Is there any space just outside the door of the room?

If we assume it is Luna spraying in the tray, it will be because she is asserting her ownership of the litter tray (as litter trays are highly valued resources to cats) It is not that Luna's telling Nova not to use the tray, but more she is telling Nova, 'this is MY tray first and foremost'. This message may not bother Nova or on the other hand she may find it a bit intimidating. So this is why it is best to have a number of trays on offer for a multicat household. Though if they won't use more than one tray then it won't help.

I hope that Luna won't start "upping the ante" by spraying regularly to put Nova off from using the tray. That would be a worry as Nova could find herself without anywhere to go for her toilet, unless you have put out more trays in very prominent places.

I wonder if one cat (or both) might use an open tray (as well as the covered tray) if one was provided? I feel if they would use more trays between them it would help reduce competition all round.

Apart from the lovely hammock which they were arguing over, are there lots more cat beds ? I have 15 cat beds (including a large cat tree and 3 XL Diogenes Barrels) for my 4 cats and they all get used in turn. I've found the best way to prevent squabbles over sleeping spots is to provide a surfeit of beds for the cats. When I have brought in a new bed there is a bit of competition for it, but it soon wears off after a few days.

Are you still feeding the girls separately ? I would continue with that plan.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Sorry for the lack of reply @chillminx , I decided to take a little break for the weekend as I was feeling very overwhelmed and was overthinking everything. I started questioning whether I was a good cat owner, whether I was doing the right things, whether they had a good life etc. So just took some time to relax.

We found out who had left the trickles of wee in the litter tray after my step son mentioned that Nova was in there when he went to use the toilet, so it is possible that his presence disturbed her mid wee, as we have not had anything like it since. We're back to normal big wees from both of them.

As for Luna not covering her business. This has been something she has done since she was a kitten. She will scratch at the sides, the walls, the air in a 'covering' motion, and will then sort of look down perplexed as to why her business is still there. This can go on for 5 minutes, and then she just gets out and gives up.

They have plenty of cat beds, I counted a total of 6 dedicated beds for them downstairs at different levels, along with access to sofas, chairs and beds throughout the house.

They are fed together as we found it to be the only way they would both eat their whole meal, otherwise Nova would go looking for where Luna was and vice versa.

We've had harmony over the weekend, which had a slight blip last night. They had been great all day, however around 9pm last night they both wanted to go out into the garden (they were pawing at the door and window. So i turned on the outside lights and let them out for a bit to burn off some energy before bed. About 20 mins later I heard a thud, and then thundering paws and fighting noises. Nova was chasing Luna and there was a load of noise but not physical fighting. We quickly separated them and let them cool down for a while before letting them together. We had a few hisses and swipes but it didn't escalate. I was planning to separate them overnight but my OH suggested just sticking to their normal routine of feeding them, then they go to bed in the kitchen as normal. I was apprehensive but I watched them on the camera we have in there and they ate their food, used the litter tray and then jumped up onto their chair beds and went to sleep.

This morning they seemed fine, although Luna did swipe at Nova a couple of times. I've put a calming spot-on on Luna to try and calm her down a bit.

Then Luna settled on the spare bed while I was getting ready. Nova decided to jump up there too and decided to lay on Luna's tail which she was not pleased about, so she hissed and growled at her, but it seemed to be a warning rather than an overtly aggressive action.

Nova moved and then 5 minutes later I turned around to see this (Photo).

We're going to stop them going out when it is dark now, just in case it was a street cat making noise that spooked them. We will only allow them out together if we are there to supervise.

Hoping for a good day today and that last night was just a blip!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Bethanjane22 - aww what a great photo! Two gorgeous fluffy girls sleeping peacefully next to each other.!

Mmm, yes, probably a good idea to stop them going in the garden at night.

I hope the squabble was just a blip as you say.

Sorry you were feeling low hun, I hope you're feeling better. I've been struggling over the past couple of days (with the restrictions of the lockdown). Starting to feel stifled. I haven't been anywhere for 6 weeks, but it feels more like 6 months!  Thank goodness I have a garden, I know there are people who are in a worse position than me. I keep trying to remember that!


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> @Bethanjane22 - aww what a great photo! Two gorgeous fluffy girls sleeping peacefully next to each other.!
> 
> Mmm, yes, probably a good idea to stop them going in the garden at night.
> 
> ...


It did make me smile after a sleepless night worrying about them!

It's been 3 weeks since the first fight so hopefully things will continue to improve now.

I'm sorry you're feeling down too. It's a really uncertain time and I'm finding it all very overwhelming, especially with feline discord in the house. We've been going on daily walks as we live near a castle which is a blessing, but not going anywhere else is very stifling. We are fortunate to have a nice garden too but now the weather has turned it's going to be hard to enjoy it. It was my dads birthday yesterday so not being able to spend it with him and my mum was hard.

Hopefully if people follow the rules we can get out of this lockdown soon! Sending love and positivity xx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Thanks hun.  Many positive, healing wishes to you too, and to those gorgeous girls of yours. x.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Thanks hun.  Many positive, healing wishes to you too, and to those gorgeous girls of yours. x.


Thanks @chillminx 

I've been noticing that Luna keeps swiping at Nova whenever Nova stops near her. She does it in the mornings when Nova tries to climb up from the chair to the table where they sleep. I managed to catch it on camera this morning.

I feel sorry for Nova because she isn't doing anything to Luna. Luna just seems to be bullying her which is unfair.

Let me know what you think of the video. It only happens in the morning when they are in the kitchen. At night, once they've had their supper they both go straight to sleep after some individual grooming.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Bethanjane22 said:


> Thanks @chillminx
> 
> I've been noticing that Luna keeps swiping at Nova whenever Nova stops near her. She does it in the mornings when Nova tries to climb up from the chair to the table where they sleep. I managed to catch it on camera this morning.
> 
> ...


So the swiping is continuing, it's not constant. They can sit next to one another if their staring out the window, waiting for treats or food, out in the garden watching the birds. However I've noticed Luna swiping for Nova when she comes out of the litter tray, which then causes nova to run. This obviously isn't ideal.

We had introduced a temporary litter tray when they initially started fighting and had to be separated. We left it in the spare room for a while after they were back together but neither of them showed an interest.

My OH is very house proud and didn't want a litter tray in one of the bedrooms so we got rid of it as they were not using it anyway.

I want to get a 2nd permanent litter tray but are having trouble agreeing on a location.

We have a new build house which is absent of any ideal little books and cranny's. The current litter tray is in the downstairs toilet, which doesn't have any more room for another. Our kitchen/diner is very open and doesn't have any spare floor space to put another tray. The hallway is narrow so that's a no-go too. My OH is adamant he doesn't want litter trays in bedrooms or living room as he says it's unsightly and unhygienic. Our upstairs bathroom again has no floor space as it was built to fit a bath, toilet and sink and not much else!

I'm really concerned that they are fighting over resources but am struggling to find a way to increase their resources on the litter tray front.

We have an under stairs cupboard, however it's not an open space so if we put it there we'd have to keep the door permanently open like the bathroom, which again isn't ideal.

I really want to fix their relationship and so desperately miss the way things were. They're spending less and less time in the same rooms, Nova seems to want to be outside a lot now too.

I just wish there was a way to make things less tense between them so they can both be happy and content.

Apologies for the long ramble, my already stressful few weeks has just been made worse by the loss of my Nanna, so I'm desperate to make our home a happy place so I can grieve without having to stress about the cats.


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## ChaosCat (Dec 7, 2017)

Can you put a cat flap into the door under the stairs?


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

ChaosCat said:


> Can you put a cat flap into the door under the stairs?


It's something I've suggested but the OH said "I'm not bloody ripping a hole in a door for the cats to have a poo!" We're at loggerheads over it. I can understand his point of view, this was his home before I moved in and then convinced him to get the cats. If it were my house then I'd happily make part of the under stairs cupboard into an easily accessible cat toilet. I've seen some great DIY's online.


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## ChaosCat (Dec 7, 2017)

That does sound difficult!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Bethanjane22 - I am very sorry to hear of the sad loss of your Nanna. My sympathy to you and your family.

I am sorry to hear Luna and Nova are still having squabbles. As Luna is waiting for Nova to leave the litter tray and then swiping at her this does suggest a resource issue as you suspect.

If you were to use the cupboard under the stairs to place another litter tray, it might be best to remove the door of the cupboard completely and store it somewhere. Otherwise it will be dark inside the cupboard and cats do not generally like jumping into dark enclosed spaces. If you have various things stored in the cupboard, they could perhaps be put in storage boxes and stacked at one end of the cupboard. I had this arrangement myself in a previous house and it worked well.

Litter trays can be put on shelves, if there is a shortage of space, but it does make them quite visible in a home without nooks and crannies.

My other suggestion is to build an outdoor enclosure for the girls, from wood and mesh, and put an extra tray or two in there. This might be more acceptable to your OH as it would not directly impact the space or appearance of the inside of the home and I think it would help the girls as it would give them more space. The idea would be to have a cat flap on the backdoor so the cats could access their enclosure independently throughout the day. The "independence" part is crucial.

I believe there are companies fitting these kind of cat enclosures even now, during the lockdown.

If your OH were to disapprove of fitting a cat flap on the back door, then you could leave the back door open all day while you're at home, and if it is cold, run a oil filled radiator in the enclosure so the heat from the house is not lost.

Something can be done to help matters hun. 

I am interested to know what constructive solutions your OH has suggested (other than rehoming one of the cats, which we are trying to avoid.)


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> @Bethanjane22 - I am very sorry to hear of the sad loss of your Nanna. My sympathy to you and your family.
> 
> I am sorry to hear Luna and Nova are still having squabbles. As Luna is waiting for Nova to leave the litter tray and then swiping at her this does suggest a resource issue as you suspect.
> 
> ...


Thank you @chillminx , it has been a difficult few days for our family.

Things seem to have improved since I wrote the last post. Although Nova does seem to be using the litter tray less (she will usually go first thing in the morning, and then in the evening when Luna isn't around). I've taken to distracting Luna when I know Nova is using the tray and with being home I am able to remove waste as soon as they have done it.

I've been looking into spaces and am considering putting a tray in the living room, in a space behind out living room door which currently only has a plant pot. So it can be safely out of the way, but accessible for them too. My OH just said I need to find a litter box that isn't ugly. Any suggestions would be appreciated. They currently use a top entry litter tray so I'd be inclined to get another the same.

Also, we use World's Best cat litter, however from being home more, I've become very aware that the litter itself smells something horrible. Even when I have fully cleaned the tray and just put the fresh litter in, it smells like sick! I've never really noticed it before, but now I cannot un smell it! Are there any other good quality litters which do not have an odour? I have tried Catsan Natural but that stuff was like concrete when wet and tracked really badly. Same for Cats Best, I found that was a nightmare and just went absolutely everywhere!

The cats have access to our DIY catproofed garden, but I've limited their time out there recently due to that being the place where they have had fights. Building a catio would be a big no as we have recently had our garden landscaped at a rather large expense, so my OH would not approve of a catio.

I started them both on YuCalm yesterday to help to calm things further. Luna has become a very very skittish girl since they started fighting, so whatever spooked her has really made her nervous to a lot of things she was fine with before. Sudden movements, opening of carrier bags, the sound of foil, the doorbell, my step-son (who is 11 and therefore moved quickly and is quite loud). I gave it to them last night and they were so chilled out, so I'm hoping it'll help them to relax around one another. We had a bit of play fighting yesterday which was lovely to see, and they both sat on the cat tree this morning at the same time (albeit on different levels) but still some progress.

I can't believe it has been a whole month since the first fight where we had to completely separate them. What a stressful month it has been!


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## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

Bethanjane22 said:


> It's something I've suggested but the OH said "I'm not bloody ripping a hole in a door for the cats to have a poo!" We're at loggerheads over it. I can understand his point of view, this was his home before I moved in and then convinced him to get the cats. If it were my house then I'd happily make part of the under stairs cupboard into an easily accessible cat toilet. I've seen some great DIY's online.


This is a really expensive option, but would your OH be more inclined to a cat flap in the door if the door looked less like a cat flap?

I only know about this one right now: https://www.tomsgates.com/en/ and they are hugely expensive... but wondering if something like this might be a good halfway house? I'm sure there must be more affordable options out there


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## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

Bethanjane22 said:


> Thank you @chillminx , it has been a difficult few days for our family.
> 
> Things seem to have improved since I wrote the last post. Although Nova does seem to be using the litter tray less (she will usually go first thing in the morning, and then in the evening when Luna isn't around). I've taken to distracting Luna when I know Nova is using the tray and with being home I am able to remove waste as soon as they have done it.
> 
> ...


which top opening tray do you have currently?


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Psygon said:


> which top opening tray do you have currently?


https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats...litter_box/litter_boxes_without_filter/600276

We currently have this one, but it's a bit too big for the space I have in mind (also, it's quite ugly in person!)


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Bethanjane22 said:


> https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats...litter_box/litter_boxes_without_filter/600276
> 
> We currently have this one, but it's a bit too big for the space I have in mind (also, it's quite ugly in person!)


In my view most litter boxes are ugly - especially the cheap ones. I had one of the Savic top entry boxes in the bathroom when the girls were kittens, but soon got rid of it for something more acceptable looking.

The most stylish litter boxes are the Modkat range, which are well made and of good quality. They're not cheap, but I think they are worth the extra money, being so much nicer than the cheap ones.

I like this black one, but it's a bit small for big fluffy cats :

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats...litter_box/litter_boxes_without_filter/213992

This one is a better size, but more expensive (you may find it cheaper if you shop around perhaps)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MODKO-MO...hash=item42161a73b5:m:mnZKgt2R9lNoO4C71FqgNXw

I have this Modkat as one for my girls, it is not top entry, but is neat, well made and unobtrusive, and cheaper than the other Modkat styles.

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats...litter_box/litter_boxes_without_filter/575492

I was a bit concerned to hear Nova is using the litter box less than usual. This could indicate she's not going for a wee when she needs one. but instead is holding on to her urine and concentrating it as cats are biologically able to do. This may sound OK, but actually it is hard on the cat's kidneys and should be discouraged. Your plan to get another litter tray soon is encouraging. I'm glad your OH has come round and understands that sharing one's home with cats inevitably involves the humans making some compromises.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Bethanjane22 -

How about this one for the living room - it's not top entry but is a good size and you could put a plant pot in the top, LOL 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pet-Cat-Litter-Box-Portable-with-Easy-Clean-Washbasin-For-Jumbo-XL-Large-Cats/133257217399?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=226450&meid=0c9a682b09a64e9db0b1c1805138f323&pid=100005&rk=6&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=283838673845&itm=133257217399&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv5PairwiseWeb&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851\

I have two of these litter boxes which are my girls' favourites, and used every day. One box in cloakroom and one in the bathroom, I wouldn't put one of these in my kitchen or the living room, though I might do if they came in plain black. I removed the silly bits attached to the side (the toy and scratch post) as being totally inappropriate for a litter box, and also took off the door flap permanently. Again, this one is not top entry, but it looks OK.

https://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/pets-at-home-all-in-one-cat-box-bed-playground


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> @Bethanjane22 -
> 
> How about this one for the living room - it's not top entry but is a good size and you could put a plant pot in the top, LOL
> 
> ...


Thanks @chillminx I saw that last one online and thought it looks nice and neat, so I will measure up the space and see if it will fit.

We've had a rocky day today. I noticed Luna swiping nastily towards Nova again this morning before we'd come down. (Just like the video I posted a week ago). I'm not sure why she keeps doing this to her. Nova does nothing to make her need to do this.

Also, we had them out in the garden with us just now whilst we ate lunch, and my OH decided to put their window hammock on the outside so they had a nice high vantage point. Nova jumped straight up and was very happy to be able to see far and wide. Then Luna tried to join and it kicked off with swiping paws and yowling. The hammock is now back in the shed.

Then after diffusing that situation we heard banging in the neighbors garden, closely followed by an almighty cat fight! This obviously set my two on edge then and they darted into the house Luna first and Nova chasing behind. They didn't fight but were pretty tense, so I kept Luna upstairs and spoke softly to her and calmed her down. Then once she was comfortable she came down and I gave them both some treats.

There are so many cats in our very small estate (at least 20 outdoor cats among 40-50 houses!) there's even a rag doll which is allowed out to roam. The poor thing has no road sense and I've often seen her darting across the road in front of cars. Poor little thing!

I think I'm going to keep them in for a few days (Or at least Luna as she is the most nervous and susceptible to outside triggers). I'm worried about things getting bad again, and at the moment I mentally cannot deal with the girls fighting again. I've got too much going on.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

I’m writing this from the sofa at almost 5am.

We were rudely awoken at 3am by the sound of the girls fighting in the kitchen.
We went down and they didn’t seem “aggressive” (no puffy tails, no hissing, growling etc). The fighting sounded like their usual yowling, but they didn’t display any of the physical signs of a fight.

Annoyingly our camera didn’t pick up the fight, but from the bit I could see Nova was sat on the table and Luna was on the chair below. I’m not sure what triggered this scrap, as they normally sleep until at least 5:30am.

We separated them both, but that didn’t work. They both just scratched the doors to their respective rooms and howled at the top of their lungs! So I’m now in the living room with them both to try and let my OH get some sleep. 

I really am at a loss of what to do. Practically we cannot separate them at night, we’d never get any sleep. At the same time, keeping them together at night is now also causing problems.

We’ve still got the Feliway Friends going in 3 rooms of the house, they’re on YuCalm, I give them the calming spot on once a week, we’ve tried to give them a consistent routine as best we can (eating, playing, attention etc), we’ve frosted the front windows to block sight lines, positive reinforcement to try and show them that good things happen when they are together. I’ve got another litter tray coming early next week.

I’m just not sure what else we can do to help. I’m really struggling. I’m starting to resent them at a time when the love of my pets should be helping to get me through such a difficult loss. I’m starting to regret ever getting them, which I know is a horrid thing to say, but right now it’s the truth. I’m at my wits end.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Bethanjane22 said:


> I'm writing this from the sofa at almost 5am.
> 
> We were rudely awoken at 3am by the sound of the girls fighting in the kitchen.
> We went down and they didn't seem "aggressive" (no puffy tails, no hissing, growling etc). The fighting sounded like their usual yowling, but they didn't display any of the physical signs of a fight.
> ...


I've been observing them this morning and it's mainly been swiping and batting at one another. No hissing or growling and none of the fighting sounds we heard in the middle of the night.

I just recorded them sort of play fighting I think? Video below:

Nova seemed to initiate it, and Luna didn't seem to mind...at least it doesn't look like she minded.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi @Bethanjane22 - how are things going? I've been thinking of you and hoping you're OK and the girls are calmer. x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Hi @Bethanjane22 - how are things going? I've been thinking of you and hoping you're OK and the girls are calmer. x


Hi @chillminx sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you.

Things with the girls seem to be on the up. I say this whilst touching every wooden surface in my reach because I'm not getting my hopes up anymore, it is way too stressful. So I'm just taking each good interaction and bad interaction as they come and dealing with them in the moment.

The last scrap we had was on Wednesday, which is when they squabbled at 3am. Since then they've swiped and swatted one another daily, but most of the time it seems almost playful and two sided. They quickly return to normality after any swiping, often sat or led right next to one another. @Psygon gave me a great tip to keep a light on in the kitchen so that they don't get startled by one another. Since leaving the extractor hood light on each night they seem to settle a lot quicker.

I was out most of the day yesterday helping my parents with funeral plans, so left my OH in charge. He said there were no swiping incidents, no nastiness or anything of the like. When I got home, they followed me upstairs and then stayed up there when I came back down. About 10 minutes later I received a message from my OH with the attached picture of them laying on the bed next to one another.

This morning I checked our kitchen kitty cam to see if anything happened during the night, and to my complete shock I witnessed Nova move from her chair, over to Luna's chair, where she proceeded to groom her and Luna returned the favour! I watched it about 10 times in shock! They then both slept cuddled up on the same chair! I'm not getting too excited because they have been swiping one another today, but again not aggressively, I'm just happy to see that they groomed each other again.

We've since introduced a new litter tray (the one you suggested with the bit of carpet on top and the stupid cardboard toy which I discarded) and they seem to both love it. They now use both trays, and it seems to have helped reduce competition. We are considering eventually replacing our top entry one with another of the new ones as it does a much better job of keeping in smells and looks a lot neater. I hate that when we have guests and they use the downstairs loo, they end up having to look into a litter tray whilst washing their hands!

So I'm hoping things will continue to improve. If they can sleep together and groom each other, that surely must mean their relationship is on the mend!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi @Bethanjane22 - this is excellent news! I am chuffed to bits at the progress.  I love the fact they groomed each other, bless them xx

I'm also pleased you got a 2nd tray and they are using it. I am sure that will be helping them feel less competitive. Well done 

I'm not quite ready to breathe a big sigh of relief, but fingers crossed, I soon will be.  x

p.s. great photo of the girls.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Hi @Bethanjane22 - this is excellent news! I am chuffed to bits at the progress.  I love the fact they groomed each other, bless them xx
> 
> I'm also pleased you got a 2nd tray and they are using it. I am sure that will be helping them feel less competitive. Well done
> 
> ...


Yes this is definitely the most like normal it has felt in a while!

I checked our camera again this morning and the same things happened. At 11:30pm Nova moved from her chair over to Luna's, and they both started groomed each other. They then slept like Ying & Yang all night in the same chair!

They are still wary of one another, and I've seen a hiss from both of them on a few occasions, usually if the other come up to them too quickly or startled them. Swipes are still a daily thing but they are less aggressive, usually its just a raised paw of warning.

I'm not ready to relax yet, I know how quickly things can change, so we're keeping their routine as consistent as possible and trying to keep to the same schedule as if I was back in work, so that when that does happen, the transition isn't too much of a shock for them.

thanks again for all your support!

I'll keep you posted


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## MaisieD (May 22, 2019)

Bethanjane22 said:


> Thanks @chillminx
> 
> Well we just had some joint play time, Nova was not very interested in Luna, unless she got very close to her. Luna was very wary of Nova and only played with the toy when it was near her. I filmed the play time so that if the vet wanted to see how they interact during play I could show them.
> 
> ...


Wow this was hard to watch. Very very similar to my girls Bethan, although I'd say my girls are worse. They won't stop fighting or separate and ever had to intervene. The noise and growling is louder. Had your girls been worse then that video? You coped so well and very calm. 
I've been reading all your thread and it's really helped me, thank you. At times it's been hard to read as I could feel your anxiety and upset, and that's exactly how I'm feeling.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Hello, I just wanted to come on and post a quick update on my girls. It has been 6 weeks since the first incident and things are very much improved. It has been a long 6 weeks, with lots of ups and downs, sleepless nights and so much stress and worry! 

For the last week and a bit they have been sleeping on the same chair and grooming one another every night. They seem a lot more settled at night since putting the light on in there for them. They’ll usually sleep from around 11pm to 6am.

During the day they still have the odd boxing match, but it seems somewhat playful, and if I notice it is getting a bit too rough I say “oi, cut it out” and they stop. They have both hissed a few times at one another, usually if one wants to play and the other isn’t in the mood. They listen to the hiss and walk away. 

There are still a few things I’m wary of. I don’t let them out in the garden unless one of us is around to supervise. Play times have become very few because I’m scared to play with them together and separating them to play is tricky because the other wants to know what the other is doing, so they’re less interested in play. 

Also neither of them are keen on being groomed much anymore. Luna used to adore it, whilst Nova tolerated it. I think I’ll just have to try grooming Luna whilst nova is outside and vice versa, and include some treats.

The 2 litter trays have proved a hit, they’re both now using both of them. They still like to go one after the other in the same tray, but at least they have the option of two!

I’m hoping that once I am out of the house more (whenever that may be) that they settle back into normal life.


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## MaisieD (May 22, 2019)

Bethanjane22 said:


> Hello, I just wanted to come on and post a quick update on my girls. It has been 6 weeks since the first incident and things are very much improved. It has been a long 6 weeks, with lots of ups and downs, sleepless nights and so much stress and worry!
> 
> For the last week and a bit they have been sleeping on the same chair and grooming one another every night. They seem a lot more settled at night since putting the light on in there for them. They'll usually sleep from around 11pm to 6am.
> 
> ...


Great news. I'm glad things are improving for you and the girls are around eachother more now. It gives me hope.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Excellent news @Bethanjane22 

It has been a difficult time for you, I know, but you have been patient, persistent and consistent in sorting out the girls relationship and helping them get back on track. Well done! x

I hope there will be continued progress and eventually they will be back to normal with each other. I agree that when the house is quieter in the daytime after you are back at work, it will probably help.

I'm glad the 2 litter trays are a hit with them. x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Just a little update now.

The girls relationship seems to have improved greatly. They are spending more and more time near one another and seem much less wary around each other. 

The only thing that seems to be troubling to them is play. I can’t play with them together because Luna gets nervous if Nova gets too close during play. Also if they try to play together (play fighting, chasing etc) Nova will act playful, roll on her back, chirp etc. Whereas Luna will sort of do that, but then get defensive and start swatting at Nova. Nova usually just rolls on her back when this happens and looks a bit sad that her sister won’t play. 

I really hope they can play together again as Nova seems to really miss that with her sister.


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Just wanted to post this photo. This seemingly innocent photo. It was taken on 6th April 2020. As a first time cat owner, to me this seemed like the outdoor cat just wanted to say hello to my two. I even let them sniff each other through the window at the time. I have since learned that this made Luna (my cat in the picture) incredibly anxious which resulted in her fighting with her sister that very evening!. It has taken months to come to some sort of normal, and I think their relationship has been permanently damaged because of this. I just wanted to leave this heat for any future first time cat owners. I wish I’d known about redirected aggression and the influence of outdoor factors like street cats.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Very wise words hun. Redirected aggression with cats can be a problem as you say. And other influences outside the home or garden can come into play too. 

Can I just say how stunning Luna looks in the photo. xx. She really is a beauty. Nova too of course. . I would be tempted to keep hugging her - does she like being hugged and cuddled? I used to hug my cuddly LH boy several times a day, and I miss those hugs every single day. (he died suddenly 6 months ago of a thrombosis).


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

chillminx said:


> Very wise words hun. Redirected aggression with cats can be a problem as you say. And other influences outside the home or garden can come into play too.
> 
> Can I just say how stunning Luna looks in the photo. xx. She really is a beauty. Nova too of course. . I would be tempted to keep hugging her - does she like being hugged and cuddled? I used to hug my cuddly LH boy several times a day, and I miss those hugs every single day. (he died suddenly 6 months ago of a thrombosis).


I just remember thinking it was so innocent and thought nothing of it. How wrong I was!

She is very cuddly, she loves cuddles and will bury her head into my hair for a proper cuddle. She's a lot more cuddly than her sister. Nova will come to me for a cuddle bug will usually lay on my chest and nibble my chin. She's a funny girl!

Luna purrs so much she starts dribbling with is cute and a little gross when she decides to rub her face against mine!

She's currently taken up residence on my lap whilst I work :Cat


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Oooh I am so envious! What a poppet she is. . 

I love looking at photos of her and Nova. They have such sweet faces and all that gorgeous fluffy fur.  Perfect. xx


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

We had a bit of a funny behavior tonight. The girls have been great for a while now, but tonight my OH decided to play with the girls whilst I made dinner. This was the first time we’d played with them together since they fell out. They played together, albeit taking it in turns to chase the birds toy. 

Anyway, we had dinner and they just chilled in the kitchen with us. 

Then Luna used the litter tray and run upstairs for a bit and Nova went to relax in the living room. Then Luna started yowling upstairs so I went up and brought her down (she does it to get my attention sometimes). 

Luna started grooming herself by the back door (where their first fight happened) and Nova jumped down from the cat tree and started stalking towards her. We intervened when they were touching noses, and encouraged Nova up onto the sofa with us, but she kept going back to Luna.

So we put Nova out in the garden because she loves it out there. To let them cool off a bit.

Hopefully this isn’t the start of something again!


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## Faye parsons (Jun 27, 2020)

Bethanjane22 said:


> @chillminx
> 
> Thank you so much for your lovely response, you really are a credit to this forum
> 
> ...


Hi Bethanjane….id be very interested to know how your cats are now? I'm in the same situation, three weeks in and no improvement!


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

Faye parsons said:


> Hi Bethanjane….id be very interested to know how your cats are now? I'm in the same situation, three weeks in and no improvement!


Hi @Faye parsons

I'm so sorry you're going through this. It was a very difficult time for us, and it took a lot of time to get through it.

We didn't see any great improvement until about 5 weeks in.

Thankfully our two are a lot better now. They still have little slapping matches now and again, but they do cuddle at night and groom one another.

I think it helped that our two are quite young still, they're not even 2 years old yet. They've also grown up together from kittens which helped their relationship.

We started letting them choose when they wanted to spend time together, and allowed them to control their time together.

I found Feliway Friends and YuCalm helped a lot to keep them calm. Also keeping their routine the same (feeding times, bed time, etc) we also kept a light on at night when allowing them to spend the nights together.

I really hope some of this helps.


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## Faye parsons (Jun 27, 2020)

Bethanjane22 said:


> Hi @Faye parsons
> 
> I'm so sorry you're going through this. It was a very difficult time for us, and it took a lot of time to get through it.
> 
> ...


Hi BethanJane

Thank you for getting back to me, this is very re-assuring. Mine are also littermates, only 3yrs old, and had a good relationship previously. I have read lots and lots and implementing everything. I'm also finding it best to let them lead the way, I'm currently in the kitchen and the aggressor is sitting in a chair calmly and the little one is on the stairs, she's made two attempts to walk past the aggressor, both successfully but she's then chicken out, but she's still on the stairs contemplating a 3rd attempt. Fortunately the aggressor trusts me fully and is very obedient so she's easily distracted, but I can't take my eye off them for a second or a chase errupts. I'm determined to make this work so I'm fully focussed on them not having anymore bad experiences between them. 
Thank you again for your reply, and for the replies from Chillminx and Buffie for some reason I can't reply to Chillminx. Great advice from everyone and all the different posts on here. I'm very hopeful I can get this resolved.
xxx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Good luck @Faye parsons . x


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## Bethanjane22 (Apr 13, 2019)

I just wanted to come on and update this thread with a little bit of a happy ending.

So it's been almost 3 months since the first fight. It was very upsetting, stressful and difficult to deal with, but with patience and love we've managed to come through it.

The girls still have their moments where they will slap eachother silly, but we've not had any hissing or fighting for around 2 months now.

I just want to let @Faye parsons & @MaisieD know that it is possible to get back to some normality. Just keep at it, give your babies lots of love and attention and let them tell you when they're ready.

Here are some photos of my girls which just melt my heart :Cat

The one of them snuggling on the bed is right now as I type this!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@Bethanjane22

Awww, what fabulous photos of your gorgeous girls! Especially love the one together on the bed, they look so peaceful and contented. x

I am very pleased and delighted they are doing so well. Brilliant!

Well done hun.  x


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## MaisieD (May 22, 2019)

Bethanjane22 said:


> I just wanted to come on and update this thread with a little bit of a happy ending.
> 
> So it's been almost 3 months since the first fight. It was very upsetting, stressful and difficult to deal with, but with patience and love we've managed to come through it.
> 
> ...


This made me so happy.

mom so glad things are resolved. It's been 2 months and I'm losing hope for us. I'll update my thread in a moment. I just wanted to say I'm so happy for you, I bet it's such a relief for you all xxx


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