# Breeding Help/Questions etc



## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi guys

Im asking here for some help/guidance/advice for a first time breeder please.

Ive been thinking about breeding (for a hobby) for about a year or so now on and off as im not sure if i would be able to do it or not and trying to look into it as much as i can and not rush into it.

I know a lot of people may jump on me telling me i shouldnt do it etc but it is something i feel very passionate about but want to find out as much as i can before i decide if it is the best thing for me or if its just a dream that i should try and forget about.

Im just wondering if there are any breeders anywhere near me that i could go and meet and learn a bit from? Im in Harlow, Essex, but i dont think there are many near me.

Some of you will know i already have 3 BSHs and 1 maine coon, all of which are boys and are all neutered. 

I would want to breed BSHs and probably just start off with one queen, is this the best way to go?

Would she be ok in my house with 4 neutered males? Would i be better off with a cat house outside?

Im not doing this for money as i know i wouldnt make a lot of money, i just want to do it as i love my cats and its something i am very interested in and feel passionate about.

I have quite a bit of savings so money wont be a problem so i would be able to cover everything that is needed such as vet fees, food, vaccinations etc etc.

Im not sure what else to say at the moment as im still really not sure what to do for the best...i know what i want to do but i dont want to jump into it without any guidance as i want to make sure i am putting the cats' welfare first. 

Can anybody help me with any advice please or is anybody willing to meet up with me etc and give me the guidance that i need to help me decide?

Many thanks for your time and your help.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

You need a mentor kelly.

If you pop along to some shows you will get to know everyone,and see what breed standard should be.

What direction are you thinking of going? Self? cp?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

What you haven't said is why you want to breed. The pleasure of kittens? Look into fostering for a local rescue. If you are into shows, showing, and want to try to breed a better cat then maybe breeding is for you. I'd still suggest fostering a litter to see how you get on with it before an expensive commitment of a quality registered breeding queen.

What I would also say is that with 4 neuter males you will rapidly get an awful lot of cats who might not get on in a more crowded household. You might have some kittens you struggle to sell (unlikely if you breed blues), and you will get some kittens you want to keep as show and/or breeding girls.

If you had social problems how would you feel about rehoming a cat or two? Personally I'd much rather do that than start keeping cats outside in pens.

<edit>

A breeding girl will almost certainly get on with the neuter boys, but once you start keeping a daughter or two you might find a mother no longer tolerates her daughter, or half-sisters hate each other.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> I would want to breed BSHs and probably just start off with one queen, is this the best way to go?


Best to start slow, one or two girls to begin with.

I treat my breeding girls as pets, so they live in the house with the neuters, and separate into my bedroom for kittening.

Have you shown any of your current cats? Or kept in touch with the breeder? Showing opens many doors, very helpful when looking for a stud.

Breeders of other breeds can also be good to follow for birthing, raising kittens. I did this as my mentor lives in another state, so I shadowed another breed while thinking about if I'd continue to just show neuters or go into breeding.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> <snip>
> Have you shown any of your current cats? Or kept in touch with the breeder? Showing opens many doors, very helpful when looking for a stud.
> <snip>


This is so very true. Because I show and because she's seen the cat I want to take to stud I'm in a position to use a stud I otherwise wouldn't get access to.

I also steward at shows - it helps pass the day, and I get to see & handle cats of all breeds which helps develop an 'eye'. Most judges are very willing to explain whilst judging, though if their book is very large there is less time for them to do so.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> You need a mentor kelly.
> 
> If you pop along to some shows you will get to know everyone,and see what breed standard should be.
> 
> What direction are you thinking of going? Self? cp?


Hi i keep reading about getting a mentor but im not too sure how to go about getting one?

We were initially thinking of breeding blues to be honest but still not 100% sure but these are top of the list at the moment as i do love my blues


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> What you haven't said is why you want to breed. The pleasure of kittens? Look into fostering for a local rescue. If you are into shows, showing, and want to try to breed a better cat then maybe breeding is for you. I'd still suggest fostering a litter to see how you get on with it before an expensive commitment of a quality registered breeding queen.
> 
> What I would also say is that with 4 neuter males you will rapidly get an awful lot of cats who might not get on in a more crowded household. You might have some kittens you struggle to sell (unlikely if you breed blues), and you will get some kittens you want to keep as show and/or breeding girls.
> 
> ...


I just want to breed as a hobby, its something ive been wanting to do for a long time, i just like the idea of it and seeing what i could produce; i would find it interesting and because i love the BSH breed. I have never been to show to be honest as there never appears to be any near me! I will have more of a look into it now though, i dont even know any breeders or anything if im honest thats why im trying to investigate all this before i rush into anything! 

If i really HAD to rehome a cat due to social isses then i would but i would try everything in my power to not have to do this but if it was in the interest of the cat then of course i would.

Thank you for your advice xx


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

spotty cats said:


> Best to start slow, one or two girls to begin with.
> 
> I treat my breeding girls as pets, so they live in the house with the neuters, and separate into my bedroom for kittening.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your advice.

I havent shown any of my cats as its not what i got my cats for - they were just as pets - although my OH wishes that we had shown Rufus as he is such a beautiful cat lol!

Think i need to have a look into going to some shows to have a nosey and try to get some information etc


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The person you buy your breeding queen from should be prepared to mentor - help - you. If they aren't then don't buy her. Be absolutely up-front that you haven't bred and will need help & support. I also got that from the owners of both the studs I used.



> I just want to breed as a hobby, its something ive been wanting to do for a long time, i just like the idea of it and seeing what i could produce


To me this is rather vague. If you aren't interested in shows and showing, personally I'd advise you don't breed but get the pleasure of kittens by fostering. If you've not been to them before then the place to start, in my view, is to go to a few shows and start talking to the owners of a few BSH. Not from a PoV of wanting to breed, but from starting to understand what a good BSH should look like and feel like.



> my OH wishes that we had shown Rufus as he is such a beautiful cat lol!


All cats are beautiful but don't necessarily meet the breed standard. Make no mistake, if you are going to show a pedigree cat it might get some sharp comments if it's not much like what it should be, and a great many BSH have poor coat texture (too sort, too long), over-large ears, poor eye colour and many other faults.

I believe that the aim of a breeder should be to produce a few good show cats, which takes time, effort & thought.

TBH showing a neuter is the best place to start if you want to breed, and all of us who show travel quite a lot to do it. However most people can find several shows within 2 hours drive each way of where they live:

the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy

It's not that long to the Supreme but personally I always found it rather overwhelming.

Also walking up to someone and saying something along the lines of "I'd like to breed can you tell me about it" isn't going to endear you. Get a catalogue, look for the BSH being exhibited by their breeders, and see if you can ask them about what makes their cat good. Express an interest in showing, not breeding!


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> The person you buy your breeding queen from should be prepared to mentor - help - you. If they aren't then don't buy her. Be absolutely up-front that you haven't bred and will need help & support. I also got that from the owners of both the studs I used.
> 
> To me this is rather vague. If you aren't interested in shows and showing, personally I'd advise you don't breed but get the pleasure of kittens by fostering. If you've not been to them before then the place to start, in my view, is to go to a few shows and start talking to the owners of a few BSH. Not from a PoV of wanting to breed, but from starting to understand what a good BSH should look like and feel like.
> 
> ...


Oh thanks i didnt think that breeders would be so helpful to a new breeder in all honesty! I will try this approach!

Sorry i didnt think i was being so vague, im not doing it for the money, basically i just want to do it as a hobby like a lot of peopole do, i enjoy my cats and would like to get to know more about breeding and would like to eventually breed my own if i could but i just want to be sensible about it. Im not interested in showing any cats, that side of it doesnt interest me as much as the breeding part does - although i would go to some shows to try and find out more etc if it would help.

Yes i know all cats are beautiful lol but this was just said in a friendly jokey kind of way about Rufus,  I have had BSHs for a few years now and do know quite a bit about them but as long as my kittens were healthy and happy and were found nice new homes then i would be happy but im obviously willing to learn as much as i can.

I would just like to breed for pet homes mainly especially at the begining and see where it took me.

Thanks for the link i have had a look but again there seem to be none near me and i dont actually drive so i have to work around my partner also but he has said he will support me as much as he can - if i did drive then believe me i would drive as far as i had to!

Thanks again for your help, much appreciated it really is and i am taking on board all you say x


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I feel that showing is how you learn what a breed standard should be and i would highly recommend you go along to some.In a few years maybe,this advise will make sense honestly kelly.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

I am going to look into it and see what i can find  xx


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi,

Just jumping in to say that do make sure to pick a great breeder for your queen - one who not only breeds beautiful, healthy cats but who will also be a good mentor to you.

As you already have 4 cats, you can't really and shouldn't take the risk of just any queen imho so please don't be tempted to pick just any female who can be on the active register. This is a mistake I made - don't get me wrong, I love my girl and wouldn't change her for the world and looks wise she isn't bad (even made it up to champion hehe) but if I had waited longer and visited shows, I might have had a 'better ' starting spot. What I mean to say is there is no real need to reinvent the wheel and if you have a top quality queen, you are already generations ahead of an average queen.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

That's great advice from Pipje. The _worst_ possible reason for buying a cat on the active register is because someone you don't know is willing to sell you one. You need to go to shows and talk to people. Tough if there aren't any near you, you'll have to make the effort and turn it into a day out. Honestly, if you aren't prepared to do that, and at the expense of something else you want, then breeding probably isn't for you. Breeding is immensely rewarding but it is also all consuming. You can't work it into your life, you have to work your life round it.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> Oh thanks i didnt think that breeders would be so helpful to a new breeder in all honesty! I will try this approach!
> 
> Sorry i didnt think i was being so vague, im not doing it for the money, basically i just want to *do it as a hobby like a lot of peopole do*, i enjoy my cats and would like to get to know more about breeding and would like to eventually breed my own if i could but i just want to be sensible about it. Im not interested in showing any cats, that side of it doesnt interest me as much as the breeding part does - although i would go to some shows to try and find out more etc if it would help.
> 
> ...


What is lurking behind all those 'hobby' breeders? Producing lots of pet quality kittens or trying to breed a show stunner? Being a 'hobby' breeder doesn't mean not trying to breed really good quality cats. The best breeders I know are people whose hobby is showing and where breeding is attempting to produce their own show cats rather than keeping buying them.

What does 'pet homes' mean? Pet quality kittens? Or simply not a show home? If you only aim to breed pet quality kittens it will be hard to ramp the quality up - aiming to breed show quality kittens is a must IMHO.

Not driving is a handicap as well. The least I've had to drive to take a cat to stud is 1 1/2 hours. Further down someone says 'don't buy a queen just because someone is willing to sell her' and the same applies at least as much to a stud - don't use him just because they are willing for you to do so and close by.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> Not driving is a handicap as well. The least I've had to drive to take a cat to stud is 1 1/2 hours. Further down someone says 'don't buy a queen just because someone is willing to sell her' and the same applies at least as much to a stud - don't use him just because they are willing for you to do so and close by.


Agree! When I started breeding I was told to travel as far as I could to get to a quality stud cat ... "distance should be no object" I believe was the phrasing.

A mentor is a must, this ideally should be the person you buy your queen from, they will know the faults of the line they are working with, what other lines knit to theirs well and which ones to avoid because it is a bad match. This mentor should take you through your first steps of showing too. I know some don't think you need to show in order to breed but personally I think you do, at least at the start until you get you 'eye-in' regarding type. I would say it takes about 3 years to grasp type if you are completely new to this concept.

Something else you need to be aware of, most queens spray worse than studs, something few people realise. Also they may be neutered, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one or more of your current males won't suddenly start to show off his manly abilities when your queen starts to call. Some will spray too, so it's best to be aware of these issues that you could be faced with.


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

I am not a breeder, don't think I ever could be as I don't have the balls for it! I am only going to share my opinion as a lot of what has been said really rang true for me. If you are going to breed, you should do so to give something to the breed. If I was breeding BSHs, I would want to produce the very, very best kittens in the hope that they would be the very best of their type, colour, build etc. I wouldn't be happy to "just breed" you sound like you're really keen so I would suggest as has already been said, go to some shows and get a feel for the breeders, I would be looking more towards the harder to find colours but that is just me. Will go back under my stone now.

edit: are you a member of a BSH cat club? Could be something to look into?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> However most people can find several shows within 2 hours drive each way of where they live:
> 
> the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy


You can also look at the TICA website, the shows are much more interactive, you can watch and listen to the judging.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

pipje said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just jumping in to say that do make sure to pick a great breeder for your queen - one who not only breeds beautiful, healthy cats but who will also be a good mentor to you.
> 
> As you already have 4 cats, you can't really and shouldn't take the risk of just any queen imho so please don't be tempted to pick just any female who can be on the active register. This is a mistake I made - don't get me wrong, I love my girl and wouldn't change her for the world and looks wise she isn't bad (even made it up to champion hehe) but if I had waited longer and visited shows, I might have had a 'better ' starting spot. What I mean to say is there is no real need to reinvent the wheel and if you have a top quality queen, you are already generations ahead of an average queen.


Thanks Pipje - great advice!

I do intend of looking for a good breeder with a good queen, i dont want to pay all that money and then end up with something im not happy with and i do want to find a good mentor - although i have just found one - a breeder who is willing to help me along the way and help me to find a good queen and has given me lost of advice last night but im still going to take my time and look into it more and more as i really do wnant to get this right. But i also hope to find a good mentor in the breeder i buy my queen from.

Thank you xx


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks everybody for all your very helpful advice it is helping me and i really appreciate it.

Although i must say i havent said that i wont travel just because i dont drive! I travel by train 2 hours a day to get to and from work and would be willing to get a train anywhere that i had to...i like train travel ! I travelled by train by myself for hours to get Rufus and wouldnt change it for the world! Also my OH drives and he would drive me anywhere too, he would drive me however long it took to go to a stud or to get a queen etc! So this isnt really a problem and ive said i will have a look into trying to find a show to go 

Daisysmama i was thinking of going for the hardest colour to find but then i think to go for blue as i do love my blues and they are very popular and the easiest to find homes for etc and if i did enjoy it and get into it then i could go for more and more colours...decisions decisions! 

Thanks again :thumbup1:


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## laura1982 (Nov 19, 2013)

I think what people may be missing as a point here is that Kelly hasn't said she wants to breed "bad" BSH kittens, not follow type etc it is just that she doesn't particularly want to show them but I am sure she would strive to produce beautiful wonderful kittens that would possibly be show quality for those who want to show. 

By the sound of it she is willing to travel to visit shows and also to get her kittens and to learn everything she can - I don't think to be a fab breeder you have to show your cats. It is a personal thing. Just because you don't show doesn't mean you can't produce stunning healthy kittens. Yes - visit shows, learn all you can, get a good mentor and pick fab kittens to be your queen and a great stud but all that, by the sound of it, she fully intends to do. 

I know many cat breeders who produce wonderful (show quality) kittens but do not show themselves.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

laura1982 said:


> I think what people may be missing as a point here is that Kelly hasn't said she wants to breed "bad" BSH kittens, not follow type etc it is just that she doesn't particularly want to show them but I am sure she would strive to produce beautiful wonderful kittens that would possibly be show quality for those who want to show.
> 
> By the sound of it she is willing to travel to visit shows and also to get her kittens and to learn everything she can - I don't think to be a fab breeder you have to show your cats. It is a personal thing. Just because you don't show doesn't mean you can't produce stunning healthy kittens. Yes - visit shows, learn all you can, get a good mentor and pick fab kittens to be your queen and a great stud but all that, by the sound of it, she fully intends to do.
> 
> I know many cat breeders who produce wonderful (show quality) kittens but do not show themselves.


Thank you Laura you hit the nail on the head - i just want to do my best and that is why i am investigating as much as i can and hopefully now getting help from another breeder which will be a big help!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I don't think to be a fab breeder you have to show your cats.


Agree 100% My days of 5am starts are long gone and I only visit shows these days. You do however have to learn about your breed somewhere and I'm not quite sure where other than shows. Where else can you get together with other breeders, see a number of cats all together to get your eye in, discuss emerging trends, keep up with everything?


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## laura1982 (Nov 19, 2013)

havoc said:


> Agree 100% My days of 5am starts are long gone and I only visit shows these days. You do however have to learn about your breed somewhere and I'm not quite sure where other than shows. Where else can you get together with other breeders, see a number of cats all together to get your eye in, discuss emerging trends, keep up with everything?


From reading through the tread I understand she is prepared to visit shows in order to learn as much as possible - just doesn't want to show cats herself.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

If you're going to the effort of visiting a show why not take your cat?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If you're going to the effort of visiting a show why not take your cat?


In my case it's because I no longer wish to make a 12-16 hour day of it. I've done my share though


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> In my case it's because I no longer wish to make a 12-16 hour day of it. I've done my share though


Wasn't directed at you


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

spotty cats said:


> If you're going to the effort of visiting a show why not take your cat?


You obviously havent seen the size and felt the weight of my cats, would be a nightmare on the train! lol


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> You obviously havent seen the size and felt the weight of my cats, would be a nightmare on the train! lol


What about that hubby who will drive you anywhere? To be honest unless you do some showing, and read the critiques, and read the critiques on the other BSH, I feel you will struggle to understand what good type & coat texture in a BSH are.


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## laura1982 (Nov 19, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> What about that hubby who will drive you anywhere? To be honest unless you do some showing, and read the critiques, and read the critiques on the other BSH, I feel you will struggle to understand what good type & coat texture in a BSH are.


But isn't that what a mentor is for? I thought they were there to guide you, teach you and advise you.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

laura1982 said:


> But isn't that what a mentor is for? I thought they were there to guide you, teach you and advise you.


A mentor doesn't usually drive you to shows, and whilst they will help those who help themselves as well do better in the long run.


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## laura1982 (Nov 19, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> A mentor doesn't usually drive you to shows, and whilst they will help those who help themselves as well do better in the long run.


haha I didn't mean to drive you I mean to advise you and introduce you to their cats etc


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> You obviously havent seen the size and felt the weight of my cats, would be a nightmare on the train! lol


Other people manage it. It can be a fair old walk from a car park to a show hall and people do it with many cats of all shapes and sizes along with all their show kit. I visit shows now and know the breeders through showing and being an active member of my breed club. It is a bit of a closed world which only really opens up when you're prepared to participate to the full. Much as I'd like to say otherwise and however much I've tried to be open with people at shows, there's no doubt I have a completely different conversation with those taking part to the one I have with casual enquirers.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> <snip>
> Although i must say i havent said that i wont travel just because i dont drive! I travel by train 2 hours a day to get to and from work and would be willing to get a train anywhere that i had to...
> <snip>


So 2 hours a day (each way?) plus 8 hours at work = being out of the house for at least 10 hours a day. When I was working in an office for those sort of hours I didn't think breeding was a practical proposition as I wasn't at home enough to look after the kittens and socialise them.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

laura1982 said:


> But isn't that what a mentor is for? I thought they were there to guide you, teach you and advise you.


I'd imagine that while theoretical knowledge good, that nothing beats practical experience and applying that theoretical knowledge to situations in-person. The one is a good base, but it will be incredibly challenging (to the point of impossible) if it's the only source of learning.

There's also the other point that learning from your mentor gives you one person's interpretation and knowledge in high detail. But you also want a whole lot of other people's interpretations too; so learning from a range of judges and other breeders. And the easiest way to do that over time, is in a showing situation.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> What about that hubby who will drive you anywhere? To be honest unless you do some showing, and read the critiques, and read the critiques on the other BSH, I feel you will struggle to understand what good type & coat texture in a BSH are.


This was said as a "joke" - hence the laughing faces etc etc!

Some people need to lighten up a little honestly! I am serious about this but i also like to have a little personality with it! Isnt this forum about help etc and not making snidey comments?

My fiance (not hubby) will drive me anywhere - i dont make a habit of making things up - but if i was to go to a show it would be on my own or with a friend in the first instance not the OH as it wouldnt interest him as much as me!

I dont remember stating anywhere that i wouldnt go to a show! I just need to find one to go to and then decide!


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> So 2 hours a day (each way?) plus 8 hours at work = being out of the house for at least 10 hours a day. When I was working in an office for those sort of hours I didn't think breeding was a practical proposition as I wasn't at home enough to look after the kittens and socialise them.


No not each way! I dont recall saying what hours i worked or what time i can get off work...i also know of breeders who do work and breed.

I also have my OH who will also be at home!

I only getting one queen not a whole load of studs and queens - thats if i even do it - i came here asking for help and advice to help me decide - not say i am doing it and im doing it now.

I think i will get help from elsewhere as this is just turning into something that i didnt want and what usually happens on here!

Thanks everybody for all your help x


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

laura1982 said:


> haha I didn't mean to drive you I mean to advise you and introduce you to their cats etc


They will (or should!), but the more you do for yourself the better - remember they are only giving you their view, a broader outlook is very worthwhile in my view.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> No not each way! I dont recall saying what hours i worked or what time i can get off work...i also know of breeders who do work and breed.
> 
> I also have my OH who will also be at home!
> 
> ...


You haven't said how many hours you work, but to travel 2 hours a day seems a lot unless it's a full-time job. I breed & work but I work at home.

If OH is a house hubby then fine but doesn't matter how many or few queens you have, each litter needs a lot of time & effort.

I repeat my suggestion of trying fostering to see how you get on raising kittens, though fosters usually go younger and it gets more and more work as the kittens approach 13 weeks and need feeding 4-6 times a day, plus all that input shows in the output department...


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I think there's been a number of valid points raised, don't see anyone being nasty


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

spotty cats said:


> I think there's been a number of valid points raised, don't see anyone being nasty


I agree there has been valid points all of which i take on board and have thanked people for but i just dont understand why people have to make snidey comments when people are aksing for help and willing to learn if they can!

Talking to my helper/mentor last night i learned all about blood groups and much more which i thought was a very important thing to know but nobody on here mentioned that - it just seems to be advice saying "go to shows" which i appreciate will be a good learning experience and it will be looked into but what about other things such as this which could result in kittens dying etc which i find much more important advice than "go to shows".

I get that i need to go to shows but what about other important information to help me make a decision thats all.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> This was said as a "joke" - hence the laughing faces etc etc!
> 
> <snip>


Sorry forgot to put the smileys etc. after my remark.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I think the really big issues are how will a breeding female and raising kittens fit in with your lifestyle, how will you cope if there is a breeding disaster (it happens)?

Do you have the financial ability to buy and raise a good quality queen (think £600 or more), to take her to a decent stud (£200 or more - remember you might only get 1 live kitten), for an emergency section on Xmas or New Year's Day, and can you face up to rehoming her if she falls out with your pet cats?


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> I think the really big issues are how will a breeding female and raising kittens fit in with your lifestyle, how will you cope if there is a breeding disaster (it happens)?
> 
> Do you have the financial ability to buy and raise a good quality queen (think £600 or more), to take her to a decent stud (£200 or more - remember you might only get 1 live kitten), for an emergency section on Xmas or New Year's Day, and can you face up to rehoming her if she falls out with your pet cats?


If i didnt think it would fit into my lifestyle then there is no way i would even be considering in it.

How does any beginner deal with a breeding disaster? I am registered with a very good vet who is only round the corner from my house, i will seek help in what to do in circumstances like this before i get into it but how does anybody deal with their first disaster, nobody really knows until it happens do they.

This is the reason i am asking questions, for help and advice.

Im no expert at all thats why i trying to seek help from the experts.

A i said in my initial post, i have plenty of money thats not an issue!

As also said previously if i had to rehome due to social issues then i would as a last resort but i would try everything i could first not to do this as i have had experience with this and manged to sort it out.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> <snip>
> How does any beginner deal with a breeding disaster? I am registered with a very good vet who is only round the corner from my house, i will seek help in what to do in circumstances like this before i get into it but how does anybody deal with their first disaster, nobody really knows until it happens do they.
> <snip>


People vary hugely in their reaction to an emergency section producing no live kittens and then watching the mother looking for them.

What about if a complete litter fades and have all died by 2 weeks? (happened to me with a foster litter)

Or you might end up having to bottle-feed tiny fragile kittens, which means toileting & feeding every 2 hours day & night for the first couple of weeks, then gradually less often for the next 3-4 weeks, and being prepared to lose them - mortality is high with bottle babies.  (happened to a friend, she lives on her own and works at home, and was completely shattered with stress & lack of sleep by the time the last kitten departed this world)

You might have a deformed kitten born you have to take to the vets to be pts - again happened to a friend who had a kitten with a stomach wall defect.

Think about how you have dealt with other potentially very upsetting life events, try to extrapolate to the above which is by no means a complete list of potential breeding disasters.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Make sure the girl you buy comes from pkd negative lines and see the papers to prove this and/or DNA test for pkd when you blood type - also when going out to stud make sure that the boy you use is pkd negative and preferably has been recently snap tested - also don't just presume because someone has been breeding many years they will do this - I know of one imperial grand champion bsh at stud who hasn't been pkd tested


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Talking to my helper/mentor last night i learned all about blood groups and much more which i thought was a very important thing to know but nobody on here mentioned that


Because it's not what you need to consider at this stage - unless you are a lot closer to buying a queen than you've implied. It's the bigger picture as to how this will fit in general you need to sort out in your mind first. For example, the vet round the corner from your house, do they do all their own OOH at that convenient premises? Most don't these days, they contract it out. If they don't will you choose to travel to a vet who does so you'll always see staff you know or will you be happy to get the OH out of bed to drive you to the OOH centre? Such places are not necessarily staffed by breeder friendly vets.


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## laura1982 (Nov 19, 2013)

havoc said:


> Because it's not what you need to consider at this stage QUOTE]
> 
> I think it's worth considering everything so you can weigh it all up and make a decision based on as much knowledge as you can get.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

laura1982 said:


> havoc said:
> 
> 
> > Because it's not what you need to consider at this stage QUOTE]
> ...


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

laura1982 said:


> I think it's worth considering everything so you can weigh it all up and make a decision based on as much knowledge as you can get.


It doesn't matter hugely now except to realise it will probably complicate and reduce her choice of studs, and/or increase the distance she has to travel.

Also I think someone mentioned a PKD snap test. No such thing so far as I am aware, it's a DNA test and you send off a check swab to Langford. The snap test is the FIV/FeLV test a queen has before going to stud.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

Blood groups are very important to learn about in the British Shorthair breed (apparently compared to a lot of other breeds so ive read before anybody jumps on me) as if you get it wrong it can result in the kittens dying very very quickly so i think this is a very very important point as far as im concerned...i would hate to have made that mistake!


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

It may be worthwhile reading this thread, if you haven't already. It offers an insight into the not-so-nice side of breeding

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/375335-those-who-considering-having-just-one-litter.html


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> Blood groups are very important to learn about in the British Shorthair breed (apparently compared to a lot of other breeds so ive read before anybody jumps on me) as if you get it wrong it can result in the kittens dying very very quickly so i think this is a very very important point as far as im concerned...i would hate to have made that mistake!


They are important once you get as far as deciding to breed and are looking for a queen. Until then they are just something that will be a complicating factor.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

daisysmama said:


> It may be worthwhile reading this thread, if you haven't already. It offers an insight into the not-so-nice side of breeding
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/375335-those-who-considering-having-just-one-litter.html


Possibly the ultimate 'breeding disaster'


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

kellyrich said:


> Blood groups are very important to learn about in the British Shorthair breed (apparently compared to a lot of other breeds so ive read before anybody jumps on me) as if you get it wrong it can result in the kittens dying very very quickly so i think this is a very very important point as far as im concerned...i would hate to have made that mistake!


I do hope your mentor told you correctly the ins and outs of blood typing because this is the one subject in cat breeding that there seems to be the most nonsense and untruths bandied about. BSH are no worse than any other breed when it comes to NI, either a breed is at risk or it is not.

There is a lot to consider when you decide that you want to take up breeding. Things can go badly wrong, things can go smoothly. I realise you might be feeling that people are trying to crush your dream but you must understand that when you have been breeding a long time you see people rush in without any idea of what they want to achieve and little grasp of what makes their chosen breed, and this is incredibly depressing when you have worked for years to improve your breed.

All I can say to you is be completely honest with yourself, is this really the right thing for you to do now? Will you really have the time to devote to a queen and kittens (kittens are incredibly hard work, they take up a lot of time and people just don't realise it)? How will breeding fit in with any future plans you may have job/family wise? The GCCF say you should ask yourself the following questions:
Why do I want to breed?
Have I the time, patience and understanding?
Can I afford it - equipment, stud fees, vet bills, extra food - to name just a few of the extras?
Have I researched the subject thoroughly?
Have I discussed this with the experts (other breeders)?
How will my human family feel about the idea, will they agree?
Will I be able to sell my kittens? (Perhaps there are already many established breeders in the area).

Breeding and showing cats can be joyous, crushing, thrilling, awful, uplifting, depressing, emotional, heartrending often all of these in just one litter! You are often left doing this :mad2:

If after all this you still feel that now is the right time then I wish you luck


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Breeding and showing cats can be joyous, crushing, thrilling, awful, uplifting, depressing, emotional, heartrending often all of these in just one litter!


All of the above plus a lot of damned hard work. Nobody is trying to be nasty, just passing on a lot of hard earned experience. All of it is stuff we've lived through. I've loved every single one of the kittens I've bred but a fair measurement of my breeding career would be the tonnes of cat litter that has passed through this house, the bedding washed, the new duvets bought, the time spent on the phone to totally unsuitable 'would be' buyers - that's the daily reality. You get home from work tired and there's all that to deal with first. I wouldn't change a thing but I wouldn't kid anyone it's all roses either.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

Tigermoon said:


> I do hope your mentor told you correctly the ins and outs of blood typing because this is the one subject in cat breeding that there seems to be the most nonsense and untruths bandied about. BSH are no worse than any other breed when it comes to NI, either a breed is at risk or it is not.
> 
> There is a lot to consider when you decide that you want to take up breeding. Things can go badly wrong, things can go smoothly. I realise you might be feeling that people are trying to crush your dream but you must understand that when you have been breeding a long time you see people rush in without any idea of what they want to achieve and little grasp of what makes their chosen breed, and this is incredibly depressing when you have worked for years to improve your breed.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tigermoon.

My mentor didnt tell me about the blood grouping only in BSH, she told me about the blood grouping issues but then i read on the internet that it applied to most cats but mainly to BSHs so i guess its same as when you are ill and you look on Google and discover you are dying lol...its not always the truth lol! 

I do understand that some people are trying to help and i do realise that there are ups and downs and i need to be prepared for good and bad and heartache and hard work but i honestly wouldnt be thinking about it if i didnt think i could manage, yes i guess it can be pretty scary at times but there are also good things to come from it.

I have already read those questions lol over and over again 

Thank you for wishing me luck and thanks for your advice its appreciated and i do think about what everybody is saying


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The really important question is "Why do I want to breed?" and I still don't have a sense of your answer to that question.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> The really important question is "Why do I want to breed?" and I still don't have a sense of your answer to that question.


I know the answer to that question and i have said a few times but no matter what i say here im just gonna get jumped on by you for some unknown reason.

Im sorry that you seem to disagree to me breeding, again for some unknown reason but i will continue to look into it and get all the help i can from other sources and will hopefully succeed but i wont know the answer to that question unless i try, so sometimes you just have to do what you want to do in life when you feel passionate about something so i will just carry on investigating and hopefully i can get the help and support i need. Its nice to be positive in life and nice to get back positive help and feedback!

Thanks


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The thing is to me it comes over as I want to breed because I want to breed.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> The thing is to me it comes over as I want to breed because I want to breed.


We can all list many reasons to justify why we breed but at the end of the day this quote applies to all breeders


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> The thing is to me it comes over as I want to breed because I want to breed.


you are entitled to your opinion


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

From a purely cat lover and owner point of view - ie. not breeder.
If you want a new 'hobby' why not take up painting or embroidery for example? 
If I had a few much loved cats already I would not be considering rehoming any of them just because I wanted to breed.
I'm not sure your motivation is right, having lots of money doesn't mean anything 

I recommend you enjoy the cats you have and find something else to fill your time if that's the issue 

Sorry just my humble opinion.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

moggie14 said:


> From a purely cat lover and owner point of view - ie. not breeder.
> If you want a new 'hobby' why not take up painting or embroidery for example?
> If I had a few much loved cats already I would not be considering rehoming any of them just because I wanted to breed.
> I'm not sure your motivation is right, having lots of money doesn't mean anything
> ...


Firstly i am a big cat lover - Its not just a new hobby, its something ive been interested in in a while and thought about it long and hard and hence now im trying to get help and guidance so i dont mess up. Painting or embroidery is not my thing!

Id never consider giving up any of my cats i have now never ever and ive never said that! They are my babies and loved and spoilt very very much!

I said i had money as i was asked if i had enough, so that was in answer to a question. What did i say my "motivation" was????

Thanks for your opinion.

I think this thread can now be finished as its not what it was intended to be and i didnt come on here to be criticised...just helped.

Thanks everybody for all your input......i do now realise why so many newbies are scared off when asking for advice, some people need to lighten up a little it is after all an advice forum...shame there are no "shows" on giving advice and help and being positive eh!


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

wicket said:


> We can all list many reasons to justify why we breed but at the end of the day this quote applies to all breeders


So true...there are many reasons why people want to breed and what has it got to do with anybody else anyway as long as you are happy and your cats are happy and healthy


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Kelly , i am not a breeder , nor would i want to be i honestly don't think anyone is jumping on you ..... The advice that has been given comes from folk who have been doing this for years , decades even .... Valid concerns from posters , seems to upset you , I understand what they are all saying , it is for the betterment & welfare of the breed that you listen & learn not jump in , to be cautious take everything in and learn from those with much to offer , It's not just about having the money to buy the best Queen or stud , there is much much more to take onboard ... Please dont be critical of those who want to help , or give their opinions .


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

kellyrich said:


> As also said previously if i had to rehome due to social issues then i would


I am not trying to argue, just stating the facts.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

tincan said:


> Kelly , i am not a breeder , nor would i want to be i honestly don't think anyone is jumping on you ..... The advice that has been given comes from folk who have been doing this for years , decades even .... Valid concerns from posters , seems to upset you , I understand what they are all saying , it is for the betterment & welfare of the breed that you listen & learn not jump in , to be cautious take everything in and learn from those with much to offer , It's not just about having the money to buy the best Queen or stud , there is much much more to take onboard ... Please dont be critical of those who want to help , or give their opinions .


I agree that some people are trying to help me, totally and i take on board all the good and bad that people are saying, i know it wont be easy far from it...but ive recently spoke to other people and other breeders who are willing to help me in any way they can and being nice about it which is so much nicer....and i am getting jumped on by at least one person no matter what i say! I know its not about having the money, as i said previously, somebody asked me if i had the money so i answered but i wouldnt start doing this if i didnt feel comfortable money wise anyway thats just wrong.

I wont be critical of people who really want to help at all but this thread is just making me more determined in all honesty so i suppose thats a plus to come out of it 

I am thankful to all who have helped i really am x


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

It is possible to breed with a full time job- provided you breed on a modest basis, plan properly, are lucky and have the flexibility at work in the event you are not lucky. 

Both my husband and I work full time. We both have challenging jobs and I have a significant commute(2.5 hours return). I was even sent abroad(within Europe and also to Asia) a few times when I had a litter. All this was possible as I only have one litter a year( I used a lot of annual leave for this, planned it very carefully so that my queen would give birth during a normally quiet period at work). I was lucky that everything turned out fine but if not, my back up plan was a catsitter or I could take the kittens to work or a 'milk mummy' group (snaptested pedigrees only). I was slightly worried about how well socialised they would be but the kittens turned out great. 

About shows, I do think shows are extremely important. I do not enjoy them but I do think that shows are absolutely essential (like going to the dentist )- any breeder (except perhaps those who have shown lots and already have the knowledge, experience and network) who doesn't is missing out and is possibly one who cuts corners. I am of the opinion that if one chooses to breed, then why not do everything as properly as humanly possible? Besides looks, you also learn a lot about health (for eg. In NL, which cat had tested positive for HCM), lines, the latest news about feline related things etc. Also as mentioned by others, 'networking' is important for access to using a stud, buying a queen etc. Breeding completely by yourself is very difficult and not practical.

Sorry if this post sounds garbled. I'm typing this with my phone in the train and can't read this entire post 

All the best with breeding. It is very difficult and time consuming - for now, I still think it's very rewarding (not at all financially) and I very much enjoy it.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

moggie14 said:


> I am not trying to argue, just stating the facts.


Yes but not my cats that i have now...which is what you said...and i wouldnt anyway unless i 100% had to which wouldnt happen, i was just a bit fed up of answering the question and as i said ive experienced cats not getting on and managed to sort it out without rehoming. I wouldnt even rehome my queens once they were retired cos i would find it hard!


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

pipje said:


> It is possible to breed with a full time job- provided you breed on a modest basis, plan properly, are lucky and have the flexibility at work in the event you are not lucky.
> 
> Both my husband and I work full time. We both have challenging jobs and I have a significant commute(2.5 hours return). I was even sent abroad(within Europe and also to Asia) a few times when I had a litter. All this was possible as I only have one litter a year( I used a lot of annual leave for this, planned it very carefully so that my queen would give birth during a normally quiet period at work). I was lucky that everything turned out fine but if not, my back up plan was a catsitter or I could take the kittens to work or a 'milk mummy' group (snaptested pedigrees only). I was slightly worried about how well socialised they would be but the kittens turned out great.
> 
> ...


Thank you again for a positive feedback and advice much appreciated it helps more when its more positive.

I am going to look into some shows


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> I wouldnt even rehome my queens once they were retired cos i would find it hard!


Unfortunately to carry on breeding it's usually necessary to rehome cats once retired or be over run with cats as the years go by.
Unless you aren't planning on keeping anything or bringing new girls/boys in.

Can be much kinder to the cats to pet them out once retired.

Most breeders I know work full time to support their hobby, with careful planning so leave is taken for the week kittens are due, or vet appointments.



havoc said:


> Because it's not what you need to consider at this stage - unless you are a lot closer to buying a queen than you've implied.


The thread has escalated quickly, from mere thoughts to having a mentor almost overnight.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> <snip>
> Im sorry that you seem to disagree to me breeding, again for some unknown reason
> <snip>


I disagree to almost everyone who comes on here wanting to breed. That's because almost no-one has any sort of plan. Some even ask what breed, but whilst you have found out about blood groups have you looked at the BSH breed standard? At the registration policy? So far you've only mentioned wanting to breed some pet kittens, and the rescues are overflowing with them. Not BSH but just as lovable and deserving.

You also mention not rehoming the girls. That means either you will get one girl and always sell all her kittens (so no progression), or you will end up with too many cats and quite possibly aggravation between them, which can express itself in many ways including pissing round the house as well as bullying and fighting.


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## laura1982 (Nov 19, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> I disagree to almost everyone who comes on here wanting to breed. That's because almost no-one has any sort of plan. Some even ask what breed, but whilst you have found out about blood groups have you looked at the BSH breed standard? At the registration policy? So far you've only mentioned wanting to breed some pet kittens, and the rescues are overflowing with them. Not BSH but just as lovable and deserving.
> 
> You also mention not rehoming the girls. That means either you will get one girl and always sell all her kittens (so no progression), or you will end up with too many cats and quite possibly aggravation between them, which can express itself in many ways including pissing round the house as well as bullying and fighting.


I believe that's why she came on here, asking for advice.

Also she said if she has to she will rehome, if it is in the best interest of the cat.

I think people aren't reading her posts properly and just jumping to conclusions.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

The thread has escalated quickly, from mere thoughts to having a mentor almost overnight.[/QUOTE]

They werent just mere thoughts i have been thinking and reading about it for over a year now and will continue to learn as much as i can! Its just now that i have opened up on here about it.

I had the offer of a mentor from a BSH breeder if i wanted it which i thought was very nice of the breeder so i will of course use her as a mentor to help and guide me...dont see the problem with that! I was told one of the first things i should do is get a mentor...so i do and then get comments about it


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> I disagree to almost everyone who comes on here wanting to breed. That's because almost no-one has any sort of plan. Some even ask what breed, but whilst you have found out about blood groups have you looked at the BSH breed standard? At the registration policy? So far you've only mentioned wanting to breed some pet kittens, and the rescues are overflowing with them. Not BSH but just as lovable and deserving.
> 
> You also mention not rehoming the girls. That means either you will get one girl and always sell all her kittens (so no progression), or you will end up with too many cats and quite possibly aggravation between them, which can express itself in many ways including pissing round the house as well as bullying and fighting.


Yes i have looked into everything and look into it everyday but still have more to learn of course and thats why i seek any help possible! I do have a plan, of course i do!

If you bother that much about the kittens in rescues then why dont you take them in and not breed your kittens? Thats basically what you are saying to me! You have a right to breed but i or anybody else doesnt unless they have a plan that suits you!

Lots of breeders keep hold of their cats after retirement, i also know a lot dont, its preference. Ive been to one breeder's house where she had over 50 cats in her house and about 20 outside and they all lived happily together! It is personal preference i think and you cant tell somebody that they have to rehome their cats or that they have too many if its a happy household! Its nobody elses business really!


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

Kelly, I don't think anyone could doubt your commitment and love to your crew  (Although where is Lion Lionel on your sig eh!). 

I don't know the first thing about breeding (cats) but if I were to decide to breed, personally I would try and foster a pregnant queen first to see if I could cope with it. That way you are involved in a birth and also giving back to the rescue community. 

I'm sure you will make a fantastic breeder one day, which ultimately is what we need more of. I just hope you do decide to stay around for advice because I am sure those on here are just giving you their own personal feeling based on trauma/suffering they have witnessed from lesser experienced breeders / BYB's etc. 

Good luck hunni


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

I'm late to this, and I'm sorry but I'm fuming! Kelly has been here for 5 years not just walked in off the street. She has 3 bsh!! She's dedicated to the breed, had a mentor and very keen to learn! 

We all have to start somewhere! Let's support her!

Good luck Kelly xx


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

Jellypi3 said:


> Kelly, I don't think anyone could doubt your commitment and love to your crew  (Although where is Lion Lionel on your sig eh!).
> 
> I don't know the first thing about breeding (cats) but if I were to decide to breed, personally I would try and foster a pregnant queen first to see if I could cope with it. That way you are involved in a birth and also giving back to the rescue community.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jelly!

Ha ha i know, i really want Lionel on my siggy but im not sure how to do it and i did ask in cat chat if anybody could do me one but nobody responded 

Thanks for your advice its appreciated and im getting more options to think about now thankfully! 

Thanks for your well wishes and i hope your babies are fine and Dante isnt driving you too crazy ha ha!! 

xxxx


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

MollyMilo said:


> I'm late to this, and I'm sorry but I'm fuming! Kelly has been here for 5 years not just walked in off the street. She has 3 bsh!! She's dedicated to the breed, had a mentor and very keen to learn!
> 
> We all have to start somewhere! Let's support her!
> 
> Good luck Kelly xx


Wow you go girl!! If you are fuming imagine how i am feeling 

Thank you so much, its nice when people want to support you and have a bit of faith in you! As you say, i am dedicated to the breed and i love my boys...including my MC lol! 

Thanks it means a lot and the forum could do with more people like you! xx


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> <snip>
> 
> If you bother that much about the kittens in rescues then why dont you take them in and not breed your kittens? Thats basically what you are saying to me! You have a right to breed but i or anybody else doesnt unless they have a plan that suits you!
> 
> Lots of breeders keep hold of their cats after retirement, i also know a lot dont, its preference. Ive been to one breeder's house where she had over 50 cats in her house and about 20 outside and they all lived happily together! It is personal preference i think and you cant tell somebody that they have to rehome their cats or that they have too many if its a happy household! Its nobody elses business really!


Your plan at present seems nebulous - 'breed some pet cats'. It's pets the rescues are overflowing with including BSH look-alikes. That's why I think your plan is still not developed.

I am flabbergasted that many cats (50) 'get on'. Actually without seeing it I'm not sure they do - maybe they were so squashed in they were shut down to avoid arguments they couldn't escape from. That certainly happens in crowded rescues.

If they genuinely do all get on then that breeder is extraordinarily lucky - 1 in a million. I've not said you WILL have to rehome but it's something you MUST be prepared to do, for the sake of the cats, if you go into breeding.

Some breeders quickly slide from breeding to hoarding, would hate for you to do that.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> Your plan at present seems nebulous - 'breed some pet cats'. It's pets the rescues are overflowing with including BSH look-alikes. That's why I think your plan is still not developed.
> 
> I am flabbergasted that many cats (50) 'get on'. Actually without seeing it I'm not sure they do - maybe they were so squashed in they were shut down to avoid arguments they couldn't escape from. That certainly happens in crowded rescues.
> 
> ...


You just dont stop do you!

Why on earth do i have to justify my plan to you..if i had the perfect plan it would still be wrong to you? Did i say i wanted a BSH lookalike??

The cats werent squashed in at all, they were very happy and this was a good breeder who goes to lots of shows etc and she just loved her cats! You just dont seem to believe or want to believe anything and are very negative!

Im very sorry but im not going to answer your posts anymore and find you quite rude towards me and unhelpful so i feel this is for the best.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Very sorry you think I'm rude & unhelpful. 

Would it really be helpful if I said 'that's great' to something I thought clearly wasn't? Would it really be helpful if I said nothing? 

I really can't see how I've been rude. I've not insulted you in any way whatsoever, I've made it clear these are my personal views, not sure what else you want other than someone who says 'yes great go for it' - in other words a sycophant.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If you know a very good breeder who shows then that's got to be the way to go. Why are you not asking them to mentor you?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Kelly, I have followed this thread determined not to intervene but now I will. I bred for 20 years and NEVER rehomed a queen. If you are sensible and start with one girl, it is possible to manage. It means that sometimes you cannot keep a girl you would want to breed from but ultimately the cats come first. Sometimes a qeen may have to be neutered early but all cats would prefer to be pets so they do not mind. It was even more difficult for me because I was trying to help new colours gain championship status but I am proud that every cat I bred could trace their pedigree back to my foundation queen.

Now for the reason I am making a contribution to this thread. Cat breeders have to be caring to do right by their kittens. I found it harder and harder to find suitable homes for my kittens so I gave up breeding more than 4 years ago. You need to be aware that, with the rise of the internet, it is harder to weed out the unsuitable owners. They all read up on what is expected and usually do a very good job of saying what they think you want to hear. You must have extended conversations with them to try to establish if they are genuine. Nowadays it is common for people to sign written agreements with no intention of complying with the conditions. Could you cope with uncertainty about your kittens' future lives?

All the knowledge and experience can gradually be gained as long as you are sensible and ask many people for advice (not just one as inevitably we are all biased) but, despite the heartbreak when kittens are ill, despite all the work involved and the difficulty of arranging your household around the cats, I still think the worry of what is happening to the kittens subsequently is the hardest thing to cope with.

If you do decide to breed, good luck and don't stop caring about your cats.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> The thing is to me it comes over as I want to breed because I want to breed.





OrientalSlave said:


> The really important question is "Why do I want to breed?" and I still don't have a sense of your answer to that question.





OrientalSlave said:


> Very sorry you think I'm rude & unhelpful.
> 
> Would it really be helpful if I said 'that's great' to something I thought clearly wasn't? Would it really be helpful if I said nothing?
> 
> I really can't see how I've been rude. I've not insulted you in any way whatsoever, I've made it clear these are my personal views, not sure what else you want other than someone who says 'yes great go for it' - in other words a sycophant.


You haven't. The OP only wants stroking and "go for it" posts, she clearly doesn't want to face any realities. I've read the thread, she rejects any post that discusses realities. Since she becomes defensive when faced with these things, it is my opinion that she thinks it will be all fun and games and cute kittens.

Kelly, contact a few rescues. See what goes on there. *Foster a few pregnant strays for a couple of years*. You need the experience. Then revisit the "breeding" idea.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

havoc said:


> If you know a very good breeder who shows then that's got to be the way to go. Why are you not asking them to mentor you?


I dont remember saying i hadnt asked her


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## laura1982 (Nov 19, 2013)

havoc said:


> If you know a very good breeder who shows then that's got to be the way to go. Why are you not asking them to mentor you?


She has - and got moaned at for doing that too! She was told that she was too ahead and not just in the thought stages as she had implied. She can't win. I expect it of this forum now - shame.

She is not ignoring the negative - she answers and then gets asked the same thing over and over and over.

"The OP only wants stroking and "go for it" posts, she clearly doesn't want to face any realities." What a load of rubbish!!

It isn't what people are saying - it is the way they are saying it and maybe I am a sensitive soul but I have interpreted some of the replies as being very sarcastic and a bit rude. I imagine though that the response I will get are "that's me reading it wrong".


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

lorilu said:


> You haven't. The OP only wants stroking and "go for it" posts, she clearly doesn't want to face any realities. I've read the thread, she rejects any post that discusses realities. Since she becomes defensive when faced with these things, it is my opinion that she thinks it will be all fun and games and cute kittens.
> 
> Kelly, contact a few rescues. See what goes on there. *Foster a few pregnant strays for a couple of years*. Then revisit the "breeding" idea.


I dont want stroking i wanted help...thats what a forum is for! I definitely dont think it will all be fun and games, my family bread dogs years ago and i know it wasnt all fun and games! Far from it!

I would like to know about things that can go wrong so that i am prepeared for them if they do happen but there is a way in whcih to talk to people and give advice to people...ive been asked questions, answered them and then reasked the same question over again and nothing i seem to say is right!

If i just wanted to go ahead and do it and not have a thought for the cats welfare etc and how hard it was going to be then i would have just done it and not asked for help or advice! Here, Im just being told not to do it which is not what i asked! Advice can be given good and bad but you dont clearly rule out a person breeding when you dont even know them!

Some Breeders just dont want other people to breed when i dont understand this if they are doing it themselves, you would think they would help each other, i know i would!


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

laura1982 said:


> She has - and got moaned at for doing that too! She was told that she was too ahead and not just in the thought stages as she had implied. She can't win. I except it of this forum now - shame.
> 
> She is not ignoring the negative - she answers and then gets asked the same thing over and over and over.
> 
> ...


Thank you Laura...for stroking me! Oops sorry! lol 

Totally agree, the advice is good but its the way people are saying it! :thumbup1:


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

QOTN said:


> Kelly, I have followed this thread determined not to intervene but now I will. I bred for 20 years and NEVER rehomed a queen. If you are sensible and start with one girl, it is possible to manage. It means that sometimes you cannot keep a girl you would want to breed from but ultimately the cats come first. Sometimes a qeen may have to be neutered early but all cats would prefer to be pets so they do not mind. It was even more difficult for me because I was trying to help new colours gain championship status but I am proud that every cat I bred could trace their pedigree back to my foundation queen.
> 
> Now for the reason I am making a contribution to this thread. Cat breeders have to be caring to do right by their kittens. I found it harder and harder to find suitable homes for my kittens so I gave up breeding more than 4 years ago. You need to be aware that, with the rise of the internet, it is harder to weed out the unsuitable owners. They all read up on what is expected and usually do a very good job of saying what they think you want to hear. You must have extended conversations with them to try to establish if they are genuine. Nowadays it is common for people to sign written agreements with no intention of complying with the conditions. Could you cope with uncertainty about your kittens' future lives?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your post!

At least you are telling me positives and negatives in a helpful way which i appreciate and thank you for! I will take on board all you say and you have been very helpful letting me know of your experience breeding x


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

laura1982 said:


> She has - and got moaned at for doing that too! She was told that she was too ahead and not just in the thought stages as she had implied. She can't win. I expect it of this forum now - shame.
> 
> *She is not ignoring the negative - she answers and then gets asked the same thing over and over and over. *
> 
> ...


Oh there's no question she has an answer for everything. However I'm with OS on this. There seems to be no real motive except she "wants to breed", which, in my opinion translates to "I want pregnant mommas and kittens".

This can be accomplished by fostering rescued pregnant strays.

Why do you want to breed? Do you want it as a status symbol? Do you have thoughts on how to improve your chosen breed? What is your reason for creating even more cats in a world already overrun with cats? I haven't really seen any answer to this that explains your motives. Of course you don't have to answer this. But please, THINK about these things.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

But you only seem to want help on your terms. As Lorilu says, the posts pointing the pitfalls out all seem to get dismissed as 'rude' and 'unhelpful' or (now) 'sarcastic' and they keep coming along as they seem to get ignored. Breeding is much, much more challenging than asking for advice here. 

QOTN has given more good advice, and she's given a clue about her breeding plans - "I was trying to help new colours gain championship status". That's a clear plan, and she clearly went about it thoughtfully and carefully.

However I'd say she was lucky not to have to rehome unless she was able to run multiple households of cats. Maybe it's a breed difference, if she bred BSH.

She is spot-on about finding good homes for kittens. I've had several enquires that more or less put the phone down when I mention the kitten will be neutered before they leave me.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted by havoc View Post
> If you know a very good breeder who shows then that's got to be the way to go. Why are you not asking them to mentor you?





> She has - and got moaned at for doing that too!


Now I am confused. On the very first page of this thread the OP said


> Hi i keep reading about getting a mentor but im not too sure how to go about getting one?


I do know that a bit later there was some talk of a mentor appearing out of the ether but surely someone you know is a better bet than an online presence you've never met.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

havoc said:


> Now I am confused. On the very first page of this thread the OP said
> 
> I do know that a bit later there was some talk of a mentor appearing out of the ether but surely someone you know is a better bet than an online presence you've never met.


I wasnt 100% sure how to go about getting one but from doing my investigations i found out how to go about it and spoke to a few people and and i actually got a few offers of help come to me too! There are some nice people around you know! 

I havent said that all these people have been an "online presence" and people i dont know?


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

I have also sat back and watched this thread with interest but also now have something to add as an experienced breeder with 21 years knowledge and experience of running a multi cat household and the joys and pitfalls under my belt but still learning with every litter and from every other breeder I meet.

I am not going to comment on whether I personally think you should breed, only you know if you have the knowledge, finances, home circumstances, time, patience and resilience needed but what I will say is that in any mentor you approach you should be 100% happy that they are a good breeder who gives everything for their cats and has the right ethics.

I meet novice breeders regularly who have picked up the wrong advice from day one and set off in the wrong direction and then find themselves facing pitfalls that they cant cope with and then have to either try to find their own better way of doing things, find a better mentor or give up something they love as it has all gone horribly wrong.

The basics of any breeding plan are often personal but what remains constant is the cats and kittens needs for any of us that breed and I would not be being completely honest if I didn't say that that if you think 50 cats can live happily under one roof with 20 more outside then you really need to go back to basic feline needs for territory, control of infection and disease and good animal management unless this is a specialist built facility which for me would have its own ethical dilemma.

We have all been at the point you are at and yes you have done absolutely the right thing asking the questions but please don't think anyone not encouraging you to crack on and get your first litter planned doesn't want you to breed - people are taking time to reply and give you the benefit of their advice and experience and there is years of it just in this one thread.

When things go wrong they can go badly wrong very quickly - haven't met anyone yet that without living the lifestyle really gets it. Six weeks ago I had a fantastic track record of numerous healthy happy litters and happy queens then it all changed overnight...I am now on a 3 month no warning and financially damaging hiatus from work hand raising orphaned kittens which have probably been damaged in some way by their premature birth and with the responsibility of a much loved and adored but now dead queen on my conscience and a 3k plus vets bill outstanding. My daughter is severely traumatised at seeing a family pet die in such horrific circumstances and has also had the heartbreak of seeing two kittens struggle to live only to die as we watched.

Hope this post gives you something to think about both positives and negatives. 

Lisa.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I havent said that all these people have been an "online presence" and people i dont know?


OK but you must realise how strange it seems that you come onto a forum asking about breeding from the ground up and then it turns out you already know breeders. Maybe it's just how the thread has evolved but it is starting to read very strangely.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

havoc said:


> OK but you must realise how strange it seems that you come onto a forum asking about breeding from the ground up and then it turns out you already know breeders. Maybe it's just how the thread has evolved but it is starting to read very strangely.


I ask about breeding on here because i have been a member for nearly 6 years and had a lot of help from some people and had some good laughs and met some nice people on here and that is what a forum is for isnt it? I have thought about breeding for a long time but the time hasnt felt right before as i had other issues in my life so didnt want to do it at the wrong time but now i feel the time could be right so my investigations continue.

I have been to many breeders' houses when looking for Lionel and Rufus and spoke to many breeders in my searches and met breeders from BSH sites etc etc, Siggy and George were rescues!

How am i supposed to get help if i dont seek it? I would be wrong if i just went ahead and did it thinking it was easy with no help at all wouldnt i? Im just trying to do the right thing here thats all.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

lisajjl1 said:


> I have also sat back and watched this thread with interest but also now have something to add as an experienced breeder with 21 years knowledge and experience of running a multi cat household and the joys and pitfalls under my belt but still learning with every litter and from every other breeder I meet.
> 
> I am not going to comment on whether I personally think you should breed, only you know if you have the knowledge, finances, home circumstances, time, patience and resilience needed but what I will say is that in any mentor you approach you should be 100% happy that they are a good breeder who gives everything for their cats and has the right ethics.
> 
> ...


Thank you Lisa for your post and thank you for not judging me!

Im not saying that the breeder who had the 50 cats indoors was right or wrong etc i was just stating a fact that i had seen myself and at the time when i first saw it both me and my OH were in shock if im honest but all the cats seemed very happy...i just dont think the lady wanted them to leave lol!

Im so sorry to hear about your horrible experience and so sorry for your loss, that must be heartbreaking and i know if i do go ahead with this that i have to think all these scenarios through and decide if i would be able to cope etc as it doesnt sound nice x

You have given me a lot to think about and i thank you


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have been to many breeders' houses when looking for Lionel and Rufus and spoke to many breeders in my searches and met breeders from BSH sites


That's why it seems so strange to ask on the internet. There are all these experienced people you know personally so surely they are a more trustworthy source of help and information.


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## laura1982 (Nov 19, 2013)

havoc said:


> OK but you must realise how strange it seems that you come onto a forum asking about breeding from the ground up and then it turns out you already know breeders. Maybe it's just how the thread has evolved but it is starting to read very strangely.


Maybe part of the problem is just that - it is a thread, not a conversation. If we all met in a cat café and had a good chat I bet the whole conversation would have been different but the problem with forums, email, tx etc is they can be misread and different tones of voice put on etc etc and it can lead to all sorts of upset and confusion.


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## laura1982 (Nov 19, 2013)

havoc said:


> That's why it seems so strange to ask on the internet. There are all these experienced people you know personally so surely they are a more trustworthy source of help and information.


I think she just wanted as many different opinions and thoughts on it as possible, just trying to be thorough and do the right thing. I think that's good not strange.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

havoc said:


> That's why it seems so strange to ask on the internet. There are all these experienced people you know personally so surely they are a more trustworthy source of help and information.


Isnt it best i get as much help as i can? I feel the more help i have the better and the more experienced people i talk to the better, as people have advised many times in this thread, i need to speak to more and more breeders to know the latest things about the breed etc or is that wrong advice that has been given to me. But by all means feel free to leave the thread if you dont want to help or dont agree with the topic of which i am asking for help and if you find it all "strange".


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> That's why it seems so strange to ask on the internet. There are all these experienced people you know personally so surely they are a more trustworthy source of help and information.


I have several good breeders both current and retired helping me as a novice - however I still find I am regularly on here asking questions. People you know, even "friends" often have their own agenda which can cloud judgement and advice. I have also found the passion the breeders on here have for their breeding far exceeds a lot of other breeders I have met "off forum" - as a result of being a member of this forum I now feel i have a better understanding of why I breed and what direction I wish my breeding to go in.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Is it really more worthwhile to choose to breed cats because you're 'helping a certain colour to gain championship status' than to want to breed/raise some nice quality, healthy, well socialised pedigree kittens, 90% of which will go to pet homes whatever your reason for breeding is?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> Is it really more worthwhile to choose to breed cats because you're 'helping a certain colour to gain championship status' than to want to breed/raise some nice quality, healthy, well socialised pedigree kittens, 90% of which will go to pet homes whatever your reason for breeding is?


It isn't, and maybe those attributes (nice quality etc.) were meant to be implied in 'breed some pet cats'. Simply that to me, as put, the OP doesn't have much of a plan. I know plans change, that's partly what they are for, but people without a plan (or just a rather nebulous one) tend to end up drifting.

However if you mean 'nice quality' from a show PoV the only way I know of for a novice to find out if they are is to show or to have a mentor who is well into showing. I don't think it's possible to teach oneself what a stunning show cat is from a breed standard.


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## laura1982 (Nov 19, 2013)

Good thing she has a mentor that shows and that she is in the beginning stages of planning then - sounds all good to me 

(that did sound sarcastic - didn't mean it to just pointing out we seem to be on the same page finally  )


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> It isn't, and maybe those attributes (nice quality etc.) were meant to be implied in 'breed some pet cats'. Simply that to me, as put, the OP doesn't have much of a plan. I know plans change, that's partly what they are for, but people without a plan (or just a rather nebulous one) tend to end up drifting.
> 
> However if you mean 'nice quality' from a show PoV the only way I know of for a novice to find out if they are is to show or to have a mentor who is well into showing. I don't think it's possible to teach oneself what a stunning show cat is from a breed standard.


Everything else aside, I did mean 'nice quality' in terms of how the kittens look. I think anyone paying a considerable sum for a pedigree kitten should expect him/her to be at least a reasonably nice example of its breed, even if not show quality. But yes, I agree, most usually the only way to develop an eye for that is by showing or at least visiting shows.

I believe the most important criteria are having a caring, compassionate nature (towards animals AND people) and a true love for the chosen breed. I think both pave the way for making the right decisions for everything else that follows when embarking upon breeding.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks Laura, as i have said a few times in this post but it doesnt register, i do have a plan - just because i dont share it at the moment doesnt mean i dont have one its WIP and changes due to more information i gather etc etc!! 

I would much prefer to breed/raise some nice quality, healthy, well socialised pedigree kittens in all honesty...their health to me is very important...it would be nice for them to be involved in shows if their new owners wanted to go this way but but the main importance to me is not whether they would win a show a not! Just my preference


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## laura1982 (Nov 19, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> I believe the most important criteria are having a caring, compassionate nature (towards animals AND people) and a true love for the chosen breed. I think both pave the way for making the right decisions for everything else that follows when embarking upon breeding.


I think that's fab! Well said.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> I believe the most important criteria are having a caring, compassionate nature (towards animals AND people) and a true love for the chosen breed. I think both pave the way for making the right decisions for everything else that follows when embarking upon breeding.


Totally agree and i definitely have a compassionate nature towards animals and definetly towards the BSH breed and (most) people


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> Totally agree and i definitely have a compassionate nature towards animals and definetly towards the BSH breed and (most) people


Suspect you think I don't have any towards people.

Most of us 'unhelpful' people are being 'unhelpful' exactly because we are compassionate towards people and cats - all cats, not just BSH.

We wouldn't care if you have a deeply upsetting 'breeding disaster' you had no idea could happen. We wouldn't care if you got ripped off by a breeder or stud owner. We wouldn't care if an alleged kitten buyer took you for a ride. We wouldn't care if you couldn't find homes for your kittens. And so on.

Not sure why your plan is so deadly secret though. Of course it's a WIP - once a plan is set in stone it's a dead weight.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

Jesus christ even when i say something nice about another person's comment! Unbelieveable!


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## laura1982 (Nov 19, 2013)

Sorry really feel I need to quote myself from earlier - I think it may have been missed. 

"Maybe part of the problem is just that - it is a thread, not a conversation. If we all met in a cat café and had a good chat I bet the whole conversation would have been different but the problem with forums, email, tx etc is they can be misread and different tones of voice put on etc etc and it can lead to all sorts of upset and confusion."


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Kelly, I do think that OS's advice and viewpoints are absolutely correct. I perhaps see things a little differently because when I started breeding I had no plan, no thoughts whatsoever on what I wanted to do or achieve, had two (human) babies in tow so not the best time to start breeding cats. Added to which I thought it would be a bit of fun and I'd make a few bob into the bargain. Terrible thing to admit to, eh? Thirty years on I'm all the financially poorer for it but it's still a lifetime's, or half a lifetime's, passion. 

I did, however, show my cats a fair bit for the first half of those 30 years and I think that, without it, I would never have managed to achieve what I have. I'm not the least bit competitive with others but I do think that showing your own breeding cats/their offspring is really the only way to gauge things.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I did not say it was 'more worthwhile to help a breed achieve championship status,' I said it made it more difficult to keep all my cats but I was still able to breed for 20 years without rehoming a cat (and that includes three stud boys as well.)

Surely the vast majority of all the kittens we breed will be sold as loved pets. That is always what I wanted for my babies including the few who went for breeding. Of course one aim in breeding must be to produce cats that conform to the breed standard but surely the overriding concern in any companion animal is temperament. I do worry when that aspect is sometimes overlooked. When I was breeding I had to choose between superior type and ensuring excellent temperament. I have no regrets about choosing to breed for temperament and perhaps that is why I have never had to rehome an ex-breeding cat.

I expect I had fewer show quality kittens as a result but I still achieved more than I could have hoped for when I started breeding.


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## The cat whisperer (Oct 22, 2014)

Personally Kelly I just think some people have to have the last word when really no one is listening, you all know who you are. 

I think if you are passionate about breeding, you seem intelligent enough to do your homework then do it. Be a lion amongst cat breeders :mad2:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> surely the overriding concern in any companion animal is temperament


I don't disagree but I think breeders need to be very careful when stating their objectives. Yes, the vast majority of our kittens go as pets but if you aren't breeding to further your lines and in the hope of producing something good enough to bench then you can only be 'breeding to sell'. This puts you in a completely different category from a breeder who is breeding for themselves and selling the 'surplus' (the taxman's terminology not mine)


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Kelly, I do think that OS's advice and viewpoints are absolutely correct. I perhaps see things a little differently because when I started breeding I had no plan, no thoughts whatsoever on what I wanted to do or achieve, had two (human) babies in tow so not the best time to start breeding cats. Added to which I thought it would be a bit of fun and I'd make a few bob into the bargain. Terrible thing to admit to, eh? Thirty years on I'm all the financially poorer for it but it's still a lifetime's, or half a lifetime's, passion.
> 
> I did, however, show my cats a fair bit for the first half of those 30 years and I think that, without it, I would never have managed to achieve what I have. I'm not the least bit competitive with others but I do think that showing your own breeding cats/their offspring is really the only way to gauge things.


Hi

Thanks for your post.

Im not doubting for one second that OS' comments arent correct, i totally agree with a lot of what she is saying and i am grateful for her telling me the positive and negatives of breeding...the only thing i dont understand is why she is asking me the same questions over and over again even though ive answered them, she doubts everything i say and basically saying i shouldnt do it, buts that is my choice...her way of breeding isnt everybody's way. I need help and advice so i am taking on board what she says, but she doesnt need to snipe at me and make sarcastic comments, i dont like all this badness but feel i should react to stick up for myself, but i dont like it and now just wont respond to any badness i dont need it if im honest.

I am grateful to everybody for all their advice, good and bad stories as i have a lot to learn and want to learn both good and bad if i am going to do this. 

Im not perfect and i may mess up in some ways but i am determined to at least try and do my best.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

QOTN said:


> Of course one aim in breeding must be to produce cats that conform to the breed standard but surely the overriding concern in any companion animal is temperament. I do worry when that aspect is sometimes overlooked. When I was breeding I had to choose between superior type and ensuring excellent temperament. I have no regrets about choosing to breed for temperament and perhaps that is why I have never had to rehome an ex-breeding cat.
> 
> I expect I had fewer show quality kittens as a result but I still achieved more than I could have hoped for when I started breeding.


Great post and i agree with your views, i would hope i could breed for good temperament too


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

lisajjl1 said:


> ..snip..
> The basics of any breeding plan are often personal but what remains constant is the cats and kittens needs for any of us that breed and I would not be being completely honest if I didn't say that that if you think 50 cats can live happily under one roof with 20 more outside then you really need to go back to basic feline needs for territory, control of infection and disease and good animal management unless this is a specialist built facility which for me would have its own ethical dilemma.
> 
> Lisa.


Absolutely.



kellyrich said:


> Thank you Lisa for your post and thank you for not judging me!
> 
> Im not saying that the breeder who had the 50 cats indoors was right or wrong etc *i was just stating a fact that i had seen myself and at the time when i first saw it both me and my OH were in shock if im honest but all the cats seemed very happy..*.i just dont think the lady wanted them to leave lol!
> 
> ...


That isn't fact, that is an opinion based on one visit. unless you live there, you have no idea how those 70 cats are living.

It's your eagerness to accept pretty appearances over experienced opinions that bothers me the most. You only hear what you want to hear, my opinion is based on this thread.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

QOTN said:


> I did not say it was 'more worthwhile to help a breed achieve championship status,' I said it made it more difficult to keep all my cats but I was still able to breed for 20 years without rehoming a cat (and that includes three stud boys as well.)


My apologies. It did seem as though I was suggesting you had said that. I was trying to make a general analogy. I have seen (and still do) many breeders striving for show success and titles who, as a result, are producing large numbers of kittens. However well and carefully bred/cared for, etc, these cats are I'm not sure it's something to be applauded over someone who breeds small scale, isn't interested in showing and sells kittens as pets only.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

lorilu said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> That isn't fact, that is an opinion based on one visit. unless you live there, you have no idea how those 70 cats are living.
> 
> It's your eagerness to accept pretty appearances over experienced opinions that bothers me the most. You only hear what you want to hear, my opinion is based on this thread.


Im sorry but yes it is a fact that i saw 50 odd cats in a breeder's house! Thats what i was stating was a fact!

Not sure where you get that from but as you say its your opinion, you dont know me so please dont judge me, i dont judge you, im asking for help so if you cant contribute to help then why comment. Im sorry you feel the way that you do.

I definitely value people's experienced help and advice and i would help anybody out myself in the same situation


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

kellyrich said:


> Wow you go girl!! If you are fuming imagine how i am feeling
> 
> Thank you so much, its nice when people want to support you and have a bit of faith in you! As you say, i am dedicated to the breed and i love my boys...including my MC lol!
> 
> Thanks it means a lot and the forum could do with more people like you! xx


Sweetie I couldn't just stand back and watch as I too when the time is right wishes to breed, and hope to be able to come here or places like it in the middle of the night for help and support. I bred my siamese 18 years ago and had a textbook pregnancy, birth and smooth 13 weeks raising them. It does happen!

I personally want to breed to be able to hand over a healthy happy well socialised kitten to their new slaves. I want them to experience the same joy collecting their little bundles with their whole future ahead of them, just like I did over the last 25 years. I don't want to foster kittens either. I adore siamese.

Yes, there is a lot of heartache, stresses, financial issues and it s no way a money making object, but the rewards when it does go right makes every single breeder on here do it again! 

I personally would never show my cats if I was in the breeding circles. I've heard some horrendous stories about top show cat breeders doing anything and I mean anything, to get that rosette and status. It's very competitive out there.

You can see what judges are after and what they do and don't like from reading the show reports and seeing the photos, videos online.

All the best Kelly and anyone else thinking of starting up xx


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

kellyrich said:


> Im sorry but yes it is a fact that i saw 50 odd cats in a breeder's house! Thats what i was stating was a fact!
> 
> Not sure where you get that from but as you say its your opinion, you dont know me so please dont judge me, i dont judge you, im asking for help so if you cant contribute to help then why comment.
> 
> I definitely value people's experienced help and advice and i would help anybody out myself in the same situation


Honestly, Kelly? Unless someone lives palatially and I mean literally as in Buck Palace palatial, they'd need to have a very serious re-think about keeping 50 cats in one house. As a breeder, even half that amount is the biggest recipe for disaster that I can imagine.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Cat lady blows more than Â£700 a month on her 40 felines


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

MollyMilo said:


> Sweetie I couldn't just stand back and watch as I too when the time is right wishes to breed, and hope to be able to come here or places like it in the middle of the night for help and support. I bred my siamese 18 years ago and had a textbook pregnancy, birth and smooth 13 weeks raising them. It does happen!
> 
> I personally want to breed to be able to hand over a healthy happy well socialised kitten to their new slaves. I want them to experience the same joy collecting their little bundles with their whole future ahead of them, just like I did over the last 25 years. I don't want to foster kittens either. I adore siamese.
> 
> ...


Very nicely put and a very nice read for a change! 

Thats exactly what i want,not to show, as i dont particularly like the idea and thats why ive never showed any of my cats, to me they are my pets and i dont want to be involved in that world...not that im against people who want to do this its just my personal choice not to get involved with showing my cats and many people do want their cat as a pet and not for show or breeding, as with my 4 boys.

Totally agree there will be lots of heartache and i may have some bad pregnancies and i appreciate hearing stories about this and being warned of this (even though people dont seem to be reading this when i write it). It will have good and bad times, ups and downs. I know i need to prepare myself for this.

Thank you so much again for your well wishes and i wish you all the best too, hopefully there are many a nice people about still willing to help out other people 

Will keep you posted


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I don't want to have to close or edit this if it starts to become nasty. We encourage members to ask questions and should try to answer those without getting into personal argument over whose opinion is right or whose view is the better one.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Honestly, Kelly? Unless someone lives palatially and I mean literally as in Buck Palace palatial, they'd need to have a very serious re-think about keeping 50 cats in one house. As a breeder, even half that amount is the biggest recipe for disaster that I can imagine.


Thats why i said me and my OH were in shock when we walked in the house! They were all over her house!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

MollyMilo said:


> <snip>
> 
> You can see what judges are after and what they do and don't like from reading the show reports and seeing the photos, videos online.
> 
> <snip>


You can to a degree, but I feel there is no substitute for actually seeing and handling the cats.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I personally want to breed to be able to hand over a healthy happy well socialised kitten to their new slaves.


I don't deny that's a wonderful part of breeding. However, if it's your only stated aim you are only breeding to sell. You will run the risk of needing planning permission for change of use because your local council may decide you're running a business and along with that go plenty of other issues. I'm not saying I agree, I'm not saying it's fair. I am saying if your council decide to target you you'll have a very hard time fighting them if you have nothing else to show it is truly a hobby. If they succeed all the lovely feelings about handing over healthy, well socialised kittens to appreciative new owners will not (cannot) remain your first priority, you'll be ground down by officialdom. Showing, being a member of a breed club etc. is evidence that a breeder is a true hobbyist, an enthusiast rather than a business.


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## The cat whisperer (Oct 22, 2014)

Kelly i think you should let the person who has cats with no hair...........which i do find weird seeing as she is commentating on "british SHORTHAIRS" have the last word. Do what you believe in.............opps the last comment is mine now:mad2::mad2:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Maybe enough has been said for now for Kelly to digest the information. I am closing this thread now.


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