# I know I was wicked but



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

After so many nights of fireworks and Kali starting Flynn off on a panting/pacing spree I got fed up with it on Friday Eve and told her off. I told her to "STOP IT AND GO AND BLOODYWELL LIE DOWN!" And to my amazement she did! She got up a couple of times and I told her off again and then settled to sleep through all of the rest of the bangs and fizzes. 
Tonight as the fireworks started she went and laid down on her bed and stayed there, no stress, no panting and no thundershirt. Seems she's more scared of being told off than the fireworks, I know its rotten but Flynn is fine with them til he see's her acting up - the other three boys don't bother about them. 

So there you go, if all else fails try being extra stern - never know, it may actually help them. Have to say we are gobsmacked as she's always played up since puppyhood and at eight I wouldn't have thought she'd change. The dogs rarely get told off so perhaps thats why it worked - weird!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I used to do that with my last dog. She wasn't terrified just a little stressed about it.
Sometimes I think that by acting differently when the fireworks are going (telly loud,doors shut and things like thundershirts) can actually stress them more.

If your dog is terrified then that's obviously a different kettle of fish.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think that is good dog ownership not bad. Maybe that is why my dogs behave, if they do something that annoys me I yell at them to stop it


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Nice. In future I'll just make sure my dogs are more afraid of me than they are of anything else, that way any fear can be handled simply by yelling.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

You're right you were wicked.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2013)

I think people are over reacting a bit o.0''

It worked as a one off but I would not recomend, recomending others to yell at their pooch when their dog is distressed.

I think when a dog is stressed they make us stressed, pick up on that which makes it worse for them. Perhaps it was more that you werent fed up and stressed yourself anymore that mean your dog relaxed over the following days.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

We did similar with big dog and now he doesn't even blink at them. I think telling them once is ok, if the dog continued to stress, then maybe a different way of coping would be better. Reassuring the dog by telling them you're in control and there's nothing to worry about is fine, IMO.

Those of you saying how terrible she was, seriously?! She's told the dog once and now the dog has realised there's nothing to worry about, she's calm again. Is that not better than letting the dog be massively stressed every time there are fireworks? 

Must take out my poor traumatised dogs, no doubt this thread will be a bit bigger when I get back! :thumbup1:


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

We all know our own dogs better than anyone else ( and that includes the trainers and behaviourists that some of us have paid money to help our dogs and us).
Dog management has moved on I know as has child management ( we've all met those saying "I used to get a good hiding and it never did me any harm").
Malmum told her dog off and it was done out of frustration because the behaviour was impacting on another of her dogs. I get the feeling she didn't expect it to work and it was a bonus that it did , on that occasion. Nor do I think, having read lots of posts by the OP that this is her usual management style.
I don't want to comment on what Blitz said because I hope her comments are maybe difficult to interpret in a short post.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

At least it worked!
Sorry to say I frequently tell my lot off! Esp Alfie, he is like a toddler with ADHD and most things go in one ear and out the other....sometimes you have to shout at him to get him to pay attention!
Obviously some dogs are are quite fragile and get upset (I wouldnt shout at Heidi for instance, she listens anyway and would be upset if I raised my voice to her).


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Just to add to this we have ALL probably shouted at our dog at one time or another! 

I shouted at Blade on Friday night because he would not stop bounding all over Taz's head and I was worried he would hurt him , I shouted on Tuesday because he jumped over my MIL's fence and started speeding off lucky I did shout because he turned around and ran back at me and I managed to catch him. 

He's definitely NOT afraid of me or traumatized , he might be better behaved if he was :lol:


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I'd be asking myself one question "By bawling at Kali does it remove her fear of fireworks or tell her I don't approve of the way she is exhibiting her fear?"


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

It's not about shouting and telling her off - it's being pleased about it and recommending others do it to a _frightened_ dog. I would prefer my dog came to me for support rather then avoided me out of fear. I'm off to battersea now - do you think yelling would work for the dogs with kennel stress? 

As for owners knowing their dogs best i'm afraid that quite frequently they don't have a clue.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

hmm, ok just reread original post. Might be giving out the wrong message TBH...
I understand why telling off a dog once might work (it might be enough to shock it out of its building fear and make it realiese that you arent worried and so they shouldnt be either).
But if you have to tell the dog off repeatedly for being afraid then that probably isnt a good thing.
I know it doesnt work for general telling off. Alfie is now immune and thinks me shouting means 'awww, mum wants a cuddle!!'


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Exactly what others have said, it's not telling a dog off I have issue with, it's recommending that people try yelling at their dog if it "plays up" over fireworks going off. Most dogs who "play up" are frightened and yelling at them isn't going to change that fear.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I 100% believe that Malmum knows her dogs best it's not like she's ruling with an iron first and is saying always shout at your dog and tell them off, and I know she wouldn't recommend going and shouting at dogs in battersea kennels.

Their dogs, not children! I bet you have all shouted at your children at some point as well . Are your children traumatized? Are they afraid of you? Should I call social services? I don't think so.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Their dogs, not children! I bet you have all shouted at your children at some point as well . Are your children traumatized? Are they afraid of you? Should I call social services? I don't think so.


You can explain to kids why they have been shouted at...dogs just know that you lost your temper


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

So a dog owner that has told their dog off...is wicked for doing so? 

PF is like the pigging Twilight Zone sometimes.....


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

chichi said:


> So a dog owner that has told their dog off...is wicked for doing so?
> 
> PF is like the pigging Twilight Zone sometimes.....


I don't think telling a dog off is wrong if it is mucking about but to do when it is becoming stressed is not the best idea.

I don't think this was 'wicked' at all but maybe misguided. Toby gets worried by fireworks & his behaviour can then unsettle Roxy but I would be more likely to comfort him & calm him down rather than tell him off.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I rarely raise my voice to mine, it's normally Blade who causes me to do it, but I don't see how it's any different to when you first bring them home and yelp when they nip you. That frightens them too , or at least it frightened Blade.


I'm not saying shouting is the right thing to do, I'm just trying to get everyone else to take a look at themselves at a time they've probably lost their temper and yelled at their dog and not jump straight onto people and start making sly comments.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

chichi said:


> So a dog owner that has told their dog off...is wicked for doing so?
> 
> PF is like the pigging Twilight Zone sometimes.....


No, telling a dog off for being scared is wicked..
You do not change the feelings the dog has just because you yelled at it, you just teach them to stress quietly... I have a dog that doesn't growl for that very reason


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I'm not saying shouting is the right thing to do, I'm just trying to get everyone else to take a look at themselves at a time they've probably lost their temper and yelled at their dog and not jump straight onto people and start making sly comments.


I've no problems admitting that I've lost my temper at times and yelled at my dog. However I don't come onto forums all pleased with myself and recommending others give it a try. Perhaps I'm just odd but I feel awful when I've lost my temper and yelled. I'd feel even worse if I'd done it because my dog was worried by something.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

If I've ever shouted at mine for being frightened I've felt awful after and tried to make it up to them.

I wonder Malmum if it were the other way round would you have shouted at Flynn?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I have read Malmums posts long enough to know that she knows her dogs.

I wouldnt judge a very experienced dog owner who clearly knows her dogs.

Shouting at my dogs in that situation would not have helped but I know my dogs well enough. If I thought a stern command would help in a situation...I would try it if I had tried every other method. I wouldnt expect others who have never met my dogs but know I am a very experienced and dedicated dog owner to go and judge me.

Just saying....


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Losing your temper and being stern are two totally different things!

Didnt get that Malmum lost her temper. Just was stern with the dog because the behaviour being displayed was causing the other dog to stress out.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

chichi said:


> I have read Malmums posts long enough to know that she knows her dogs.
> 
> I wouldnt judge a very experienced dog owner who clearly knows her dogs.
> 
> ...


If you were afraid of, let's say, spiders and made a bit of a fuss when you saw one...would someone shouting at you, stop you being scared of spiders?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

chichi said:


> *Losing your temper and being stern are two totally different things!*
> 
> Didnt get that Malmum lost her temper. Just was stern with the dog because the behaviour being displayed was causing the other dog to stress out.


Semantics..... I'll rephrase... All the dog knows is he/she is being yelled at for being scared/stressed.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

I think there's a difference between being firm and actually shouting at them.... I think it CAN help sometimes to give a firm "Come on, settle down!" (not with a real fear but perhaps if you have dogs that bark when people pass the window or garden, or when someone knocks on the door - that kind of thing) but I wouldn't say it's fair to shout at a frightened dog.... if I shouted at Amber while the fireworks were happening then I dread to think how it would have made her feel! But I think if you use the correct tone of voice - firm but reassuring, not actually yelling, then I think for some dogs it can work, but if I were malmum I would not be saying what a great idea it is


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> If you were afraid of, let's say, spiders and made a bit of a fuss when you saw one...would someone shouting at you, stop you being scared of spiders?


I am not a dog.....

If I crapped on the kitchen floor my family would call a doctor....if one of the Chis were to do the same ... we would clear it up.

Cant compare dogs and humans where certain issues/situations are concerned imho.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

chichi said:


> I am not a dog.....
> 
> If I crapped on the kitchen floor my family would call a doctor....if one of the Chis were to do the same ... we would clear it up.
> 
> Cant compare dogs and humans where certain issues are concerned imho.


Indeed you aren't.

Are you saying dogs don't feel fear?


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I think being stern can sometimes be what a dog needs - being told to go to bed firmly in this situation seems to of worked - we all know our dogs individually and can only do what we feel is best for them in each individual situation.
I personally don't think that Malmum was recommending we all 'punish' our dogs - but that this experience (although bought out of fustration) has taught her that sometimes stern guidance can work.

Sending Zipper to bed calms him down especially when he is being territorial and barking at passing dogs, cats, people and even frogs. And I have to be firm in my voice to interrupt him.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> Indeed you aren't.
> 
> Are you saying dogs don't feel fear?


Are you being patronising?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

chichi said:


> Didnt get that Malmum lost her temper. Just was stern with the dog because the behaviour being displayed was causing the other dog to stress out.


TBF though she did say that she had to tell Kali off several times and send her back to bed which implies that she wasnt any less scared of fireworks but worked out she would just get told off if she showed it.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

chichi said:


> Are you being patronising?


i am trying to clearly understand your point of view, do you think shouting at a dog will cure it's fear... if you do indeed believe dogs can feel fear.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Dillon started barking as loudly as he could every time one of the bl**dy things go off, it's OK at first but after a while you get a headache and your ears started to hurt. 

So now we say loudly Thank you now that is enough you'er told us now every time a banger or whizzer has gone off, after awhile he seems to get the message and ignores them, either that or his give himself a headache as well.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

chichi said:


> I am not a dog.....
> 
> If I crapped on the kitchen floor my family would call a doctor....if one of the Chis were to do the same ... we would clear it up.
> 
> Cant compare dogs and humans where certain issues/situations are concerned imho.


Change that from a grown adult to a toddler and the response would more than likely be completely different though.

I don't feel dogs are all that different to small children when it comes to fear to be honest.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> i am trying to clearly understand your point of view, do you think shouting at a dog will cure it's fear... if you do indeed believe dogs can feel fear.


Hmmmmmm.....as an experienced dog owner I find it slightly insulting that you are questioning whether I believe a dog can feel fear. At no time have I suggested that dogs are fearless.

As for shouting...I have already said that it wouldnt help with my dogs...earlier on in the thread.

My point is that MM knows her dogs..is experienced in dog ownership..is clearly dedicated to them. In that case I wouldnt presume to think her judgement in dealing with the situation was poor.

I am sure MM will be more than happy to explain her actions when she is logged on.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

chichi said:


> I wouldnt presume to think her judgement in dealing with the situation was poor.


Isn't that the wonderful thing about forums we get to disagree on points and discuss the reasons for our point of view.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

Dogs can be like kids in that they know just how far they can push you before you get mad.
At least Holly does but she knows when I raise my voice enough is enough and backs down.
Is she traumatised and scared of me. Not in the slightest, I expect MM dogs know it as well. We each know how our own dogs respond to our moods and actacordingly.

MM is not a wicked owner in any way


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

I'm amazed at some of the posts on here. I shout at my lot to recall them-how does everyone else do it? I might use the whistle if I remembered it. When Zak decides to fly over the fence, he gets shouted at. When he tries to attack another dog, he gets shouted at. I shout at the horse, because it makes him back up and stop whatever he's doing and frankly, he's too big an animal for me to pussyfoot around him. And yes, if he's scared and spooking by jumping six feet in the air like one night this week, he will be SCREAMED at! I don't want nearly 600kg landing on me! 

None of my animals are remotely scared of me, I am a conveyor belt for cuddles the second I sit down, my horse shouts his face off for me until I go up to him and he comes galloping when I call him in the field. OMG, I shout at him to get him to come. Damn, I must be a terrible owner. 

If anyone on here can say they have never shouted at their dog in a particular situation (and you just can't tell sometimes if they're scared or just in need of reassurance, a controlled shout is hardly going to damage them psychologically forever more), then I bow down to your superior training


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Wicked is probably a strong word but its the one malmum used . 

We can all agree that some people certainly have a long experience of owning dogs, but I do question, today, if those who think it is right to repeatedly shout at a dog, who is expressing fear/alarm, or even just over excitement, in order to get it to shut up/stop, really know their 'dogs'. Can you really not think of a different way of handling the situation (and I would say the same goes with children, you might well lose your temper with them but that doesnt make for good or efficient parenting) 

I do believe that its important to stress what a bad idea it is might be to manage your dogs in this manner for any inexperienced lurking readers. 

I dont know  I dont know whose right, but I do know none of the emotions reading things like this stir in me are nice. I am glad that I have learned so much from some forum members that no matter how many times I might lose my temper with any living creature (and believe me I do) I cant ever possibly see that as a good thing, effective or not.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

cinnamontoast said:


> I'm amazed at some of the posts on here. I shout at my lot to recall them-how does everyone else do it? I might use the whistle if I remembered it. When Zak decides to fly over the fence, he gets shouted at. When he tries to attack another dog, he gets shouted at. I shout at the horse, because it makes him back up and stop whatever he's doing and frankly, he's too big an animal for me to pussyfoot around him. And yes, if he's scared and spooking by jumping six feet in the air like one night this week, he will be SCREAMED at! I don't want nearly 600kg landing on me!
> 
> None of my animals are remotely scared of me, I am a conveyor belt for cuddles the second I sit down, my horse shouts his face off for me until I go up to him and he comes galloping when I call him in the field. OMG, I shout at him to get him to come. Damn, I must be a terrible owner.
> 
> If anyone on here can say they have never shouted at their dog in a particular situation (and you just can't tell sometimes if they're scared or just in need of reassurance, a controlled shout is hardly going to damage them psychologically forever more), then I bow down to your superior training


I think you are missing the point that some people are trying to make. It's not the shouting that people are questioning, it's the fact that the OP is telling her dog off for expressing fear - hence, not curing the fear, just meaning that the dog feels unable to express it.

You shout at your dog to recall them?? Do you mean, you call loudly? That's quite different from 'shouting' in the sense of telling them off though? I do not 'shout' in that way to recall Maggie, I call loudly in a excited upbeat tone (and sound like an idiot in the process, but hey, it works).


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Alice Childress said:


> I think you are missing the point that some people are trying to make. It's not the shouting that people are questioning, it's the fact that the OP is telling her dog off for expressing fear - hence, not curing the fear, just meaning that the dog feels unable to express it.
> 
> You shout at your dog to recall them?? Do you mean, you call loudly? That's quite different from 'shouting' in the sense of telling them off though? I do not 'shout' in that way to recall Maggie, I call loudly in a excited upbeat tone (and sound like an idiot in the process, but hey, it works).


I think a lot of people are missing the point, I wonder how conscious it is


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Because no one here has ever shouted at their dogs or children when they were stressed . I think some people have a really low opinion of dogs and what they can handle. Sure a really sensitive dog might break but I'm sure most could handle it.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> Because no one here has ever shouted at their dogs or children when they were stressed . I think some people have a really low opinion of dogs and what they can handle. Sure a really sensitive dog might break but *I'm sure most could handle it*.


But why should they have to , is it right to shout at children too? After all it might not harm them, of course it might make them think its ok to shout at other people though  I most certainly have shouted at my dog, my husband, etc, I have wanted to rip the heads of some friends children, of course we are after all fallible humans, but it has to be agreed there are other, better ways of dealing with things surely?

Coming on a forum advocating yelling at a scared dog is just not a great thing to do :frown2:.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

GingerRogers said:


> But why should they have to , is it right to shout at children too? After all it might not harm them, of course it might make them think its ok to shout at other people though  I most certainly have shouted at my dog, my husband, etc, I have wanted to rip the heads of some friends children, of course we are after all fallible humans, but it has to be agreed there are other, better ways of dealing with things surely?
> 
> Coming on a forum advocating yelling at a scared dog is just not a great thing to do :frown2:.


I'm not advocating yelling at anyone or anything just saying that I'm sure everyone has yelled at their dog or child at some point and I'm sure it didn't break their spirit or trust.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

OB was going bonkers he was literally climbing up the wall. He was all over my other dog and me. I have a wonderful bruise on my stomach today!! In the end he got told off too. He was not any less scared but he stayed on his bed...


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> I'm not advocating yelling at anyone or anything just saying that I'm sure everyone has yelled at their dog or child at some point and I'm sure it didn't break their spirit or trust.


I didnt really think you were, but some posters seem to be.

I just think every action has a consequence, it might not be immediately obvious and it might not be linked to the event in hand but little things set little seeds, it might not break them, then or ever, but it might make them react differently to another situation, one which has a slightly different outcome .


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

chichi said:


> So a dog owner that has told their dog off...is wicked for doing so?
> 
> PF is like the pigging Twilight Zone sometimes.....


I don't think the telling off is the issue this " seems she is more scared of being told off than fireworks" saddens me a great deal, I would not personal give my dog something to be more scared of, so it didn't react to the other fear,what's the point, so the pacing and panting is frustrating for the owner, but a dog scared of being outwardly scared and shutting down is more acceptable! Experienced dog owner or not it's not exactly a method I'd be proud of. If your happy and OP is happy with it so be it. OP used the word wicked doubt it would have been anyone else's choice of words!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Meezey said:


> " seems she is more scared of being told off than fireworks"


Thats why I had pizza last night....my dogs are more scared of missing out on pizza crust then they are of fireworks!!LOL


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2013)

Heres the part were the drama squad blow this type of thread of preportion. More of the drama and ego then for the sake of the dog who got shouted at and is now perfectly chilled out.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Prowl said:


> Heres the part were the drama squad blow this type of thread of preportion. More of the drama and ego then for the sake of the dog who got shouted at and is now perfectly chilled out.


Is it necessary to be insulting? This is a dog lovers forum, so not a surprised that as dog lovers, some people do not like the idea that a dog was told off for, god forbid, being scared. Nobody is creating a drama. Some people are just pointing out that the OP shouting at her dog in this situation is unlikely to have actually led the dog to being "perfectly chilled out", and more likely resulted in the dog shutting down due to feeling unable express their fear.

You cannot know that the dog was perfectly chilled out after being shouted at for expressing it's fear simply because the dog stayed on it's bed.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Meezey said:


> I don't think the telling off is the issue this " seems she is more scared of being told off than fireworks" saddens me a great deal, I would not personal give my dog something to be more scared of, so it didn't react to the other fear,what's the point, so the pacing and panting is frustrating for the owner, but a dog scared of being outwardly scared and shutting down is more acceptable! Experienced dog owner or not it's not exactly a method I'd be proud of. If your happy and OP is happy with it so be it. OP used the word wicked doubt it would have been anyone else's choice of words!


I am sure the OP couldnt give a flying fart what I am happy with. What I am happy with is irrelevant. I have said several times that it wouldnt be helpful to shout at my dogs In that situation.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

I think that the fact she settled down and went to sleep without shaking and fretting shows she was not as scared as she made out and wanted attention.
Don't tell me dogs don't act that way because I know from experience that they do.
Dogs are far more aware of how we are feeling than most people give them credit for


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I love it how the actual point of some of the posts have been completely glossed over 

No one stated that they never shout at their dogs (rightly or wrongly), the point is that shouting at a scared dog will not make their fear automatically disappear in a puff if relief...all it will achieve is the dog shutting down or cause them to express their fear in another way.

Just because something appears to work, does not mean it is the best method to use. As this was posted on a public forum people are entitled to have their opinions on the matter and have a discussion without being insulted 

The OP called themselves 'wicked' which leads me to believe they knew what the responses would be


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Heres the part were the drama squad blow this type of thread of preportion. More of the drama and ego then for the sake of the dog who got shouted at and is now perfectly chilled out.


Perfectly chilled out? Or shut down? There is a difference.

Drama squad...like you have any room to talk...


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think this has to be the most ridiculous thread I have ever heard.

Surely everyone would agree that someone/dog who is exhibiting fear in a stupid way, screaming, rushing round whatever needs to be calmed down. A child having a tantrum sometimes needs a slap to get it out of its hysteria, a dog might need a firm word spoken loudly enough to get through to it (shouted at). If your child was scared of spiders and rushed around screaming and climbing the walls I trust you would get fairly annoyed and tell them to sit down and calm down. 

I did not notice malmum saying she lost her temper with her dog,she just told it to go to bed. And that worked. It is hardly shut down because it is put to bed to calm down ffs.

Do you know the very worst thing you can do with a horse (or a dog) is to pander to its irrational fears (except in exceptional cases). Far more sensible to give them a command and enforce it. If a horse is being ridiculous and spooking at something (which they frequently do) if you make a fuss of them you are praising them for their behaviour. Correct treatment is to stop them behaving badly then praise. Same with a dog except, as I said, in exceptional cirumstances which in some cases could be fear of fireworks.

No wonder so many dogs and children and horses are so flipping badly behaved when there are people that think a raised voice and a bit of discipline is wrong.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

chichi said:


> I am not a dog.....
> 
> If I crapped on the kitchen floor my family would call a doctor....if one of the Chis were to do the same ... we would clear it up.
> 
> Cant compare dogs and humans where certain issues/situations are concerned imho.


People are unlikely to crap in their own kitchen through fear. Although I was once scared witless by a potato which looked like Richard Nixon. When you see those videos of people coming off roller coasters with literally brown trousers nobody calls a doctor. If a dog goes on the kitchen floor through fear of fireworks it's the same thing. Discarding weight aids flight. Dogs on roller coasters... hmmm... now there's a business idea.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Malmum said:


> I told her to "STOP IT AND GO AND BLOODYWELL LIE DOWN!" And to my amazement she did! She got up a couple of times and I told her off again


Maybe having a one off shout at your dog is understandable but having to repeat the process suggests to me that the dog maybe did shut down....after being told off repeatedly for trying to express her discomfort.
(really not getting at you Malmum, you are a much better dog owner then me!!sorry!).


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I think this has to be the most ridiculous thread I have ever heard.
> 
> Surely everyone would agree that someone/dog who is exhibiting fear in a stupid way, screaming, rushing round whatever needs to be calmed down. *A child having a tantrum sometimes needs a slap to get it out of its hysteria*, a dog might need a firm word spoken loudly enough to get through to it (shouted at). If your child was scared of spiders and rushed around screaming and climbing the walls I trust you would get fairly annoyed and tell them to sit down and calm down.
> 
> ...


No I would not slap a scared child. If they were having a hissy hit out of fear, however irrational I deemed it to be, I would comfort them, I would reassure them, I would explain to them why everything was Ok, I would give them a big hug. I would not slap them. (This is the same as my mother did, and I was a very well behaved child. She did not need to hit me to get me to behave).

And once again, people are not saying they never raise their voice to their dog, they are saying that to tell a dog off for fear, is not curing the fear.

None of us were there, so we can't know for sure what happened, we are only going on what the OP wrote, and she said, and I quote "Seems she's more scared of being told off than the fireworks" IE she was scared of the OP.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

Discipline is a dirty word these days, you must not upset anyone by using it.

It is no surprise there are so many badly behaved kids and dogs about

I agree with Blitz, comon sense has gone out of the window


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Well last night it was Fireworks .... today we are being wound up by Ginger Felines...:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

From the  reaction at an owner being stern with their dog who was stressing another dog out with its behaviour...I am guessing PF is pretty quiet today


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

As the dog settled enough to fall asleep, then I suspect she was not as stressed as she was making out 

If the next time she hears fireworks she does not stress out, then Malmum will have done her dog a HUGE favour.

I really don't think that Malmum was actually suggesting that we should all shout at our dogs - that was surely tongue in cheek


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

If I had not taken action to prevent my dog climbing the walls, I may well have been reporting vet visits maybe a broken leg, a wound caused by them having a scrap or a little more than a bruised stomach for myself. What happened was OB was told to Go to his bed, be calm and STAY!! Hardly about to inflict him with more trauma but it sure as hell prevented some...OP clearly did similar..


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> Maybe having a one off shout at your dog is understandable but having to repeat the process suggests to me that the dog maybe did shut down....after being told off repeatedly for trying to express her discomfort.
> .


did anyone even read the original post???


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Not read all of the replies, but I am shocked at some of those I have read... 

Do I raise my voice to my dogs sometimes? Yes... well, Jake - not Arrow. Jake sometimes only responds to a raised voice  and he sure as hell isn't scared or traumatised by me... However, I would NEVER shout at him because he is SCARED! Jake is scared of fireworks, he paces and can't settle, he won't eat and cowers away... it has never, not once, crossed my mind to shout at him...


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

MALMUM is presumably off somewhere banging her head against a wall with frustration. I got the sense her post was made wryly and that she was surprised that being a bit stern worked. She wasn't being cruel, she was simply being human - we all get fed up sometimes!

Nor did I get the sense that MM was advocating yelling as a routine response to any dog.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Oh for goodness sake why on earth do some peeps have to make a mountain out of a friggin mole hole!

Look at Malmums dogs! Do they look like neglected abused and scared dogs?

No! They are the picture of health and have confident disposition.

All she was doing was sharing how a 'stern' voice had the effect of calming her dog down. And dont tell me some of you lot are so perfect (polish halo time?) And have not had a raised voice to your dog....for goodness sake get a grip!!:mad5:


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

gorgeous said:


> Oh for goodness sake why on earth do some peeps have to make a mountain out of a friggin mole hole!
> 
> Look at Malmums dogs! Do they look like neglected abused and scared dogs?
> 
> ...


Is there really any need to be so rude? I could be rude towards some of the comments posted on here, but it is unnecessary... so I won't.

I do not agree with what the OP did... not for one minute. However, I have already said in my previous post that I do raise my voice to one of my dogs so no, I am making out to be 'so perfect' and no, I do not need to polish my halo. I just do not agree with shouting at a scared dog...


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

gorgeous said:


> Oh for goodness sake why on earth do some peeps have to make a mountain out of a friggin mole hole!
> 
> Look at Malmums dogs! Do they look like neglected abused and scared dogs?
> 
> ...


Oh for goodness sake, why do people always miss the actual point and just pick out bits of post to get offended by!

All we were doing is sharing how telling a dog off when they are scared may not be the best course of action....for goodness sake get a grip!! :mad5:

Work s both ways


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

This thread is hilarious.

Malmum I do so hope you see the funny side and don't get upset


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Alice Childress said:


> I think you are missing the point that some people are trying to make. It's not the shouting that people are questioning, it's the fact that the OP is telling her dog off for expressing fear - hence, not curing the fear, just meaning that the dog feels unable to express it.
> 
> You shout at your dog to recall them?? Do you mean, you call loudly? That's quite different from 'shouting' in the sense of telling them off though? I do not 'shout' in that way to recall Maggie, I call loudly in a excited upbeat tone (and sound like an idiot in the process, but hey, it works).


I have and still do have to use the 'monster' voice to recall big dog. Nothing else works sometimes. It's shameful!  I didn't gloss over the fact that Malmum says she shouted then told her again. I agree with whoever said, one shouting incident may have saved the dog years of stress. I think that a shout might well bring the dog/child out of a terrified state to listen to the owner/adult and to be able to realise that there is no actual danger.

Big dog is upside down, deeply asleep, despite the ridiculous amount of fireworks going off around us. I don't _think_ he's too scared to react!

God forbid the word discipline be used on a pet forum or at all these days!


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

cinnamontoast said:


> I have and still do have to use the 'monster' voice to recall if dog. Nothing else works sometimes. It's shameful!  I didn't gloss over the fact that Malmum says she shouted then told her again. I agree with whoever said, one shouting incident may have saved the dog years of stress. I think that a shout might well bring the dog/child out of a terrified state to listen to the owner/adult and to be able to realise that there is no actual danger.
> 
> Big dog is upside down, deeply asleep, despite the ridiculous amount of fireworks going off around us. I don't _think_ he's too scared to react!
> 
> God forbid the word discipline be used on a pet forum or at all these days!


What I have read on shouting at dogs (and I imagine the same would be true for children), is that it often raises the adrenal either through stress of excitement, and hence if you are wanting to calm a situation down, shouting is not the best approach. I can imagine that making a loud sudden noise could interrupt a behaviour, but telling off a dog that is scared is different to that I feel.

Again, I don't think anyone is saying the word discipline cannot be used (although, I don't think anyone has used that word actually...), nor that they haven't told off their dog, it's telling off a dog for expressing their fear which people are iffy about.


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## Changes (Mar 21, 2009)

The sound Aaa Aaa (phonetic) is what I use if the pup is into things that are a no go, tonight my daughter brought her three dogs for a visit and within a few minutes they had destroyed Poppy's ball and tuggy toy. I think we are scared to discipline our children and our animals, we are producing more and more anti-social dogs and kids...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Changes said:


> The sound Aaa Aaa (phonetic) is what I use if the pup is into things that are a no go, tonight my daughter brought her three dogs for a visit and within a few minutes they had destroyed Poppy's ball and tuggy toy. I think we are scared to discipline our children and our animals, we are producing more and more anti-social dogs and kids...


But I don't think this thread is about disciplining a dog though, it was about a dog who was showing signs of anxiety & was shouted at. It was then suggested that the dog was then also scared of being shouted at again so maybe adding to her anxiety.

I don't think anyone thinks that Malmum is abusing her dogs, that would be madness but maybe this way of managing her dogs fear wasn't the best way especially suggesting others should try it.

I do agree that she probably knows her dogs better than any of us but people can still comment as a thread was started about this. No one is a perfect owner, I have shouted at my dogs before but not when they are scared as I not believe this is an emotion that have much control over & I can't see how shouting at them would achieve anything in relieving their fear.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I have an irrational fear of the dentist. I have been yelled at a lot for my fear, both by dentists and parents, and even slapped for it. The effect? To make me even more afraid and hysterical about it. One dentist took the time to work with me on the issue and managed to reach a point where he could work on my teeth with very little stress. I know which I'd choose every single time, why would I treat my dogs fears with less compassion than I'd like my own to be treated?

I have no objection to someone raising their voice to their dog, I do it occasionally when I feel the situation warrants it. What I object to is the whole "telling my dog off for being frightened worked, give it a try" attitude that comes across in the first post.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Crikey - how many pages??

Looking at the last page I see the words 'shutting' and 'down' mentioned, so I can guess where this thread has gone - again!
Funny how on the Mal group they called it 'direction' yet on PF it's 'shutting down' ah well nothing ever changes I suppose!

So, here is my dog tonight, with a birthday/firework party six doors away - shutting down!









Flynn's obviously shutting down too!








Guests arrive - still shutting down!








This is sooo cruel!








Hey, Rosie - you know Teebs doesn't like being trimmed - you'll have that boy shutting down if you're not careful, like Kali over there! 









Party still in full swing and dogs soo distressed, as you can well see!
I'm having a lovely stress free evening, so I won't spoil it by reading this thread - what you do with your dogs is up to you, of course BUT don't assume you know MY dogs better then ME - EVER! 

I would rather see Kali like this than panting and pacing and if you're happy with a shaking, terrified dog without even trying another approach then so be it! Poor dogs!


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2013)

Malmum said:


> *So there you go, if all else fails try being extra stern* - never know, it may actually help them. Have to say we are gobsmacked as she's always played up since puppyhood and at eight I wouldn't have thought she'd change. The dogs rarely get told off so perhaps thats why it worked - weird!


All those of you defending? Did you actually read that bit?

Personally I think is a intentional thread to cause an up-in-arms and if I am perfectly blunt yes, she may know her dogs and she may have years experience but that means sod all if she's still gonna use an outdated attitude to her dogs.

And no, they may not be 'neglected or abused' but if I am quite honest, in the photo's I have seen of them (I know one or two is due to disease) they are overweight.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Obviously your dogs are so shut down they are comatose Malmum! 

This thread is funny - especially the comment about reasoning with a screaming toddler in a supermarket! Hmm - I never tried that one. I remember bribery, threats, raising my voice and getting out of there as quickly as possible if I recall. Reasoning with a two year old was not my first thought.

Unfortunately reasoning with our pets doesn't work either, and comforting them can be the very worst thing we can do. I echo those who've talked about horses. If you don't get your horse past that carrier bag on a tree one day you might as well give up riding. You need to be firm, in charge and in control - thus giving the horse the confidence.

I wonder whether Malmum's raised voice was just what was needed to give Kali the confidence to realise that 'mum' wasn't frightened of anything, so why should she be? 

Perfectly good way to have handled the situation. I despair of all the comforting that goes on around dogs sometimes - it's hard not to do it, but often you are just reinforcing fear, not helping the dog to settle.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Malmum said:


> Crikey - how many pages??
> 
> Looking at the last page I see the words 'shutting' and 'down' mentioned, so I can guess where this thread has gone - again!
> Funny how on the Mal group they called it 'direction' yet on PF it's 'shutting down' ah well nothing ever changes I suppose!
> ...


They look positively terrified Malmum , I think they'll have to come and live with me


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Crikey - how many pages??
> 
> Looking at the last page I see the words 'shutting' and 'down' mentioned, so I can guess where this thread has gone - again!
> Funny how on the Mal group they called it 'direction' yet on PF it's 'shutting down' ah well nothing ever changes I suppose!
> ...


Lets not be silly now Malmum. Clearly nobody here wants a dog to be terrified.

It might be best to read the thread fully, with an open mind, before getting angry and assuming people are saying that they know your dogs better than you do. People have just said that telling a dog off for being scared is unlikely to actually cure the fear, and instead simply leads to the dog no longer exhibiting the behaviour associated with that feeling anymore, for fear of being told off.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

As much as I love Malamutes... man, dog, cat, ferret... I don't see how you can remove a fear... irrational or not.. by flicking a light switch... whether it's shouting or comforting or basket weaving. Perhaps something else has come into play which nobody is aware of.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

As a puppy.........go lay on your bed
As an adolescent..go lay on your bed
As a young adult.....go lay on your bed
As an adult..... go lay on your bed

As a very mature dog who has known nothing but love............GO LAY ON YOUR BED.

=stress :lol::lol::lol:

What world do some of you live in?

Abused dog....go lay in your bed.......= stress......quite possibly


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Alice Childress said:


> Lets not be silly now Malmum. Clearly nobody here wants a dog to be terrified.
> 
> It might be best to read the thread fully, with an open mind, before getting angry and assuming people are saying that they know your dogs better than you do. People have just said that telling a dog off for being scared is unlikely to actually cure the fear, and instead simply leads to the dog no longer exhibiting the behaviour associated with that feeling anymore, for fear of being told off.


Not sure a dog can stop shaking and quivering at will - if the OP had said Kali had laid down but continued to shake I would say you have a point. But as that was not the case then I don't think you do.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Beautiful dogs, Malmum!!!

Lovely to see them looking so calm and contented, even with fireworks going on :thumbup1:


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

BessieDog said:


> Obviously your dogs are so shut down they are comatose Malmum!
> 
> This thread is funny - *especially the comment about reasoning with a screaming toddler in a supermarket! *Hmm - I never tried that one. I remember bribery, threats, raising my voice and getting out of there as quickly as possible if I recall. Reasoning with a two year old was not my first thought.
> 
> ...


Was that directed at me? I can't remember another comment that you could be referring to other than the comment I made about how I would not slap a scared child. If so, there was no mention of a screaming toddler in a supermarket. It was about a child being 'irrational' out of fear. I also would not hit a child in a supermarket though. I would probably tell them off though, depending on the circumstances of course. Slapping a child in my opinion is never necessary. And before I am told that 'well that's what's wrong with today's kids', my mother never hit me, and I was one of those annoyingly well behaved children. She told me off when appropriate of course, but she did not need to hit me to get me to behave.

Reinforce fear? I believe there are a lot of trainers who do not believe you can reinforce fear.

https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/t...ou-cant-reinforce-fear-dogs-and-thunderstorms


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

rona said:


> As a puppy.........go lay on your bed
> As an adolescent..go lay on your bed
> As a young adult.....go lay on your bed
> As an adult..... go lay on your bed
> ...


Dogs lay in their beds?! Someone tell mine that


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## Buzzard (Aug 10, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Crikey - how many pages??
> 
> Looking at the last page I see the words 'shutting' and 'down' mentioned, so I can guess where this thread has gone - again!
> Funny how on the Mal group they called it 'direction' yet on PF it's 'shutting down' ah well nothing ever changes I suppose!
> ...


Take no notice of the horrible comments on this thread. You clearly are an experienced dog owner with two very happy and relaxed dogs. It has got totally blown out of proportion, as it often does.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Alice Childress said:


> Was that directed at me? I can't remember another comment that you could be referring to other than the comment I made about how I would not slap a scared child. If so, there was no mention of a screaming toddler in a supermarket. It was about a child being 'irrational' out of fear. I also would not hit a child in a supermarket though. I would probably tell them off though, depending on the circumstances of course. Slapping a child in my opinion is never necessary. And before I am told that 'well that's what's wrong with today's kids', my mother never hit me, and I was one of those annoyingly well behaved children. She told me off when appropriate of course, but she did not need to hit me to get me to behave.
> 
> Reinforce fear? I believe there are a lot of trainers who do not believe you can reinforce fear.
> 
> https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/t...ou-cant-reinforce-fear-dogs-and-thunderstorms


Who mentioned hitting?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> Dogs lay in their beds?! Someone tell mine that


And mine....they think my lap is their bed 

Sitting on the sofa is no easy task here.....it's covered in pesky Chihuahuas :lol:


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Crikey - how many pages??
> 
> Looking at the last page I see the words 'shutting' and 'down' mentioned, so I can guess where this thread has gone - again!
> Funny how on the Mal group they called it 'direction' yet on PF it's 'shutting down' ah well nothing ever changes I suppose!
> ...


I do think you could provide the dog in the first pic with a pillow for his heed! Or is he waiting for it to be washed in the machine?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Alice Childress said:


> Lets not be silly now Malmum. Clearly nobody here wants a dog to be terrified.
> 
> It might be best to read the thread fully, with an open mind, before getting angry and assuming people are saying that they know your dogs better than you do. People have just said that telling a dog off for being scared is unlikely to actually cure the fear, and instead simply leads to the dog no longer exhibiting the behaviour associated with that feeling anymore, for fear of being told off.


Exactly. If I shouted & told Toby to go to his bed he would, but he would still be scared. He may not be annoying me so much by whining & pacing but he would still be scared. How can telling him to go to his bed relieve his fear? 

I do accept that dogs are different & maybe Kali was fine with this but it's not something to suggest for other people to try as I really don't think this is an effective way to combat anxiety in a dog.

When Toby hears loud noises (alot of bird scarers where we walk at times) he comes to me for comfort & this helps him to cope.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)




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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

BessieDog said:


> Who mentioned hitting?


Blitz did - post 56. That was where the whole comment about screaming children came from. She said "A child having a tantrum sometimes needs a slap to get it out of its hysteria". I disagreed at post 59. I said I would not hit a scared child. I would comfort them.

Unless there was a mention somewhere else about a screaming toddler in a supermarket that I missed then I assume your comment about someone trying to reason with a screaming child in a supermarket was in reference to mine and Blitz comments.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


>


Arr but which one? :001_tt2:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


>


I so love your little picture comments. They say it all, which is great, because sometimes a hundred words just doesn't say it like a single picture and one word can :biggrin:

Must learn to post pics and get over this *fear* of technology  So long as nobody shouts at me though, or I might just have to "shut down" ......

Sorry, couldn't help it :lol:


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Not read all the replies, too many. I don't agree with shouting at scared dogs, or scared anything actually,

Clover is a very fearful dog in a lot of situations,mainly around unknown dogs. Yes shouting at her cos she is barking in fear may well shut up the barking, but doesn't deal with the fear. It just makes Clover think she may have to fear been shouted at too 

So for us, it's about positive enforcement and trying to not send her over her threshold.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I am finding it more funny how people that haven't even read the thread (including the op I might add) have just assumed what is written and jumped to defend someone when there is nothing to defend :idea:

Hmmm...now where is that bandwagon again?
Also noticing the tread with likes, I had my suspicions when I first read the op, glad I was not just being cynical but had in fact hit the nail on the head 

Pf does not change ut:


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Just had my worst firework night. Not fun for the dogs.
Adam and Heidi were ok, just abit nervous. Hannah came and sat on my foot and wouldnt move. Poor Alfie though just wanted to run through the house barking constantly...
I ended up holding him really close which calmed him down but he was still lip licking, yawning and crying quietly. Even though he is a big baby who whinges alot anyways I still felt horrible for him.
TBH if shouting at him had worked then I would of gladly yelled in his face just so he wasnt so upset!!


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> I am finding it more funny how people that haven't even read the thread (including the op I might add) have just *assumed* what is written and jumped to defend someone when there is nothing to defend :idea:
> 
> Hmmm...now where is that bandwagon again?
> Also noticing the tread with likes, I had my suspicions when I first read the op, glad I was not just being cynical but had in fact hit the nail on the head
> ...


Are you not assuming that people have not read the thread?


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Lavenderb said:


> Are you not assuming that people have not read the thread?


The OP implied she had not by saying that the last few pages she's seen the words 'shut' and 'down'. It's also been quite clear from the way a few people have replied that they have not read the read properly, if at all, as they are getting information wrong. So I think it's a safe enough assumption.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Lavenderb said:


> Are you not assuming that people have not read the thread?


No, I am reading the replies that are clearly stating that they haven't read the thread.

Nice try tho 

I'm off, nothing more of interest for me here :cornut:


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2013)

rona said:


> Arr but which one? :001_tt2:


jump on im driving!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> The OP implied she had not by saying that the last few pages she's seen the words 'shut' and 'down'. It's also been quite clear from the way a few people have replied that they have not read the read properly, if at all, as they are getting information wrong. So I think it's a safe enough assumption.





StormyThai said:


> No, I am reading the replies that are clearly stating that they haven't read the thread.
> 
> Nice try tho
> 
> I'm off, nothing more of interest for me here :cornut:


You don't think some may be taking the pee out of your stance....just a little?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I read it....didn't believe what I was reading during some of it tbh....but read it all the same


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

rona said:


> You don't think some may be taking the pee out of your stance....just a little?


Makes it a little clearer that they haven't actually read my replies then.

Bugger me, who would have thought that you could have a discussion on a public forum and find people that don't think the same 

Maybe if people read what was actually written rather than what they want to read then discussions wouldn't always go tits up eh.....


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> Makes it a little clearer that they haven't actually read my replies then.
> 
> Bugger me, who would have thought that you could have a discussion on a public forum and find people that don't think the same
> 
> Maybe if people read what was actually written rather than what they want to read then discussions wouldn't always go tits up eh.....


I actually don't think this thread has gone tits up  considering.....

And was lovely to see pics of Malmum's chilled out fluffsters :thumbup1:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Makes it a little clearer that they haven't actually read my replies then.
> 
> Bugger me, who would have thought that you could have a discussion on a public forum and find people that don't think the same
> 
> Maybe if people read what was actually written rather than what they want to read then discussions wouldn't always go tits up eh.....


Mmm works both ways don't you think?

Why is it that some think they are the only ones that are right?


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2013)

And on that note I think this thread has natural end


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

chichi said:


> I actually don't think this thread has gone tits up  considering.....


You didn't read properly :lol:
I said discussions, it was a general comment 



rona said:


> Mmm works both ways don't you think?
> 
> Why is it that some think they are the only ones that are right?


Show me where I implied that? (don't worry, I know I haven't so I wouldn't waste my time looking )


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> You didn't read properly :lol:
> I said discussions, it was a general comment


Oh, I seeeeee, so you were just talking generally that threads go "tits up" but you don't think this one has! But you posted that comment on this thread.......:001_huh:

I can indeed see why there is some confusion on this thread


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## Changes (Mar 21, 2009)

I hold my hands up, it was me, I didn't read it :/


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

I have read the whole thread and it may be that people are focusing on the wrong point. Malsmum asked her dog for an alternative behaviour. Because he was stressing she had to ask in such a way that he would pay attention and in this instance that meant raising her voice enough to get through to him. Asking for an alternative behaviour to stop a dog exhibiting an undesirable one is actually a very good way of managing stress. The dog learns that he can cope after all and even react differently to a stimulus.
If I am taking a dog into a situation I know he will find stressful, I give him something to do to make him concentrate on something else. For example, make him do heel work in a crowd if I know he does not like crowded areas. It disrupts his instinctive thought pattern and replaces it with a benign one. Malsmum asked her dog to go to bed, a safe place where he had to keep still and control his instinctive reactions. I do the same when the terrier starts barking his head off at distant noises, it works better than all the other strategies I have tried.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Changes said:


> *I hold my hands up, it was me, I didn't read it *:/


Shameful that....if this thread goes "tits up" it will be all your fault, you know :lol:


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm sorry, call me skeptical, but I don't believe that a scared dog is suddenly 'cured' after being shouted at a few times... To go from panting and pacing to just lying there, chilled and sleeping... fear doesn't work like that.


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

I've seen lots of people saying that Malmum _shouldn't_ have done what she did, but I don't remember seeing anyone offering an alternative action she _should_ have taken.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2013)

To each their own...

Lunar was thunder phobic, and lucky for him (and us) we live in an area that gets pretty much daily pop up thunderstorms in the spring and summer. 

When I mean phobic, I mean he would move furniture trying to find a safe spot, crouch down in to a sphinx down, a shaking, drooling, eyes bugging out, mess. He was completely unaware of our presence, we could have yelled at him, hit him, whatever, he was in no shape to recognize outside stimulus. 

What we did was:
1. Built trust. Teach him that us humans are who to go to when youre scared. Make our presence comforting. This resulted in a dog who came to seek us out during a storm instead of rearranging all the furniture in the house.
2. Massage. Lots of firm, long, relaxing moves. This also meant getting down on the floor with him wherever he was and helping him relax. I spent many an hour just sitting on the floor letting him find comfort in my presence and my touch. It got to where he would stop trembling at just the touch of my hand. 
3. Stress management in other areas of his life/environment. Low stress handling and training coupled with plenty of outlets for pent up stress helped him have reserves if you will.

Eventually Lunar got to where he would stay on his spot on the sofa during a storm - which was huge since the sofa is right next to a window. He would periodically look up, worried, after a particularly loud bolt, but as long as we were there to reassure him, he stayed put. If we werent paying enough attention hed go back to his safe spot in the bathroom, but he was never back to the catatonic state where he couldnt respond to anything. We could call him out of the bathroom and even feed him.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> All those of you defending? Did you actually read that bit?
> 
> Personally I think is a intentional thread to cause an up-in-arms and if I am perfectly blunt yes, she may know her dogs and she may have years experience but that means sod all if she's still gonna use an outdated attitude to her dogs.
> 
> And no, they may not be 'neglected or abused' but if I am quite honest, in the photo's I have seen of them (I know one or two is due to disease) they are *overweight*.




Maybe I'm missing something, not sure what their weight has to do with this


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

So glad to see that Kali has had a stress-free evening. All the dogs look pretty chilled to me, snoozing on their beds.

RESULT


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, not sure what their weight has to do with this


I thought that was a particularly random comment too.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> Obviously your dogs are so shut down they are comatose Malmum!
> 
> This thread is funny - especially the comment about reasoning with a screaming toddler in a supermarket! Hmm - I never tried that one. I remember bribery, threats, raising my voice and getting out of there as quickly as possible if I recall. * Reasoning with a two year old was not my first thought.*
> 
> ...


Sitting down and joining in worked once I recall


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

northnsouth said:


> Sitting down and joining in worked once I recall


Sure someone will come up with a reason why that is a terrible thing to do to a child


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Tomorrow on our walk I will shout at Clover to stop been so silly for been scared of stuff .. she will shut up.. problem solved .. not


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> Sure someone will come up with a reason why that is a terrible thing to do to a child


   Probably but seeing as my kids are now 29 and 31, they have told me the events that scarred them for life and this was not one of them,


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

northnsouth said:


> Sitting down and joining in worked once I recall


I always wished I had the guts to have done that!


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2013)

Or instead of a random comment it could have been me trying to demonstrate the point that, yes although MM may have years of experience with her dogs, the fact is they are considerably overweight which possibly means that she doesn't do all she can for their welfare as some suggest.

Health Risks in Overweight or Obese Dogs


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> Sitting down and joining in worked once I recall


I walked off and left mine, that took the wind out of his sails little git 

My admission is that if I am in a shouty one I swear as well eg "Dougie will you ******* shift" he understands swear words :yesnod:


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

I don't have this issue due to no firework being louder than him and he couldn't hear himself over them :frown2:

But I just wanted to super highlight this 


ellenlouisepascoe said:


> *I 100% believe that Malmum knows her dogs best* .


She'd do anything for them (yep, here comes the cute and fluffy brigade, sorry  )



cinnamontoast said:


> I'm amazed at some of the posts on here. I shout at my lot to recall them-how does everyone else do it? :


Well I just use hand signals so rrr:


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## springfieldbean (Sep 13, 2010)

planete said:


> I have read the whole thread and it may be that people are focusing on the wrong point. Malsmum asked her dog for an alternative behaviour. Because he was stressing she had to ask in such a way that he would pay attention and in this instance that meant raising her voice enough to get through to him. Asking for an alternative behaviour to stop a dog exhibiting an undesirable one is actually a very good way of managing stress. The dog learns that he can cope after all and even react differently to a stimulus.
> If I am taking a dog into a situation I know he will find stressful, I give him something to do to make him concentrate on something else. For example, make him do heel work in a crowd if I know he does not like crowded areas. It disrupts his instinctive thought pattern and replaces it with a benign one. Malsmum asked her dog to go to bed, a safe place where he had to keep still and control his instinctive reactions. I do the same when the terrier starts barking his head off at distant noises, it works better than all the other strategies I have tried.


Completely agree! Maybe the wording in the OP was a little off (the bit about it seeming like she's more scared of being told off than the fireworks, which I read as being tongue-in-cheek) but Malmum didn't yell at a terrified dog, she just reassuringly took control and firmly told Kali to go and lie down. There's no mention of yelling, and the new tactic obviously worked as Kali was able to settle down and sleep - she just needed to know that everything was ok, which Malmum showed her by taking control and telling her to go and sleep.

I think maybe we read too much into some of these posts! Advocating yelling at a terrified dog would obviously be wrong, but I didn't read that in the OP. I know with Sherlock that there are times when he's so over-excited that he just needs to be told clearly that's it's ok and he just needs to settle down.

I also can't believe that someone mentioned the dogs' weights. I think that's completely out of order.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Can you post without having to resort to name calling please. I have removed the offending comments but any more of the like will result in further action


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

LurcherOwner said:


> Or instead of a random comment it could have been me trying to demonstrate the point that, yes although MM may have years of experience with her dogs, the fact is they are considerably overweight which possibly means that she doesn't do all she can for their welfare as some suggest.
> 
> Health Risks in Overweight or Obese Dogs


Nope, still coming across as being nasty. It's irrelevant to the thread topic. Do you know the OP? If not, I suggest you stop tryng to justify the comment.



Flamingoes said:


> Well I just use hand signals so rrr:


Ha, show off!! I do too if they're looking!! Springers are too nose to the ground to pay much attention and the doggycam from Zak's walks last week show him out of sight and galloping like a racehorse with his brother!! Hilarious! I'd show you but you'd think I was obsessed with my dogs or something!! :lol:


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2013)

lymorelynn said:


> Can you post without having to resort to name calling please. I have removed the offending comments but any more of the like will result in further action


I feel this thread should be locked anyway as its turned that way and a lot of members commenting can't seem to do so without offending.

We have reached the final conclusion ages ago and people are just going to repeat themselves till the cows come home.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Ron Burgundy - That Escalated Quickly - YouTube


Sometimes when Freddie has zoned out I have to tell him, firmly, to lie down otherwise he just sits there whining and shaking.
I think there's a big difference between proper aggressive shouting, and a British person talking to a foreign person .


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I feel this thread should be locked anyway as its turned that way and a lot of members commenting can't seem to do so without offending.
> 
> We have reached the final conclusion ages ago and people are just going to repeat themselves till the cows come home.


And this coming from the one who labelled people with a differing point of view the "drama squad" interesting irony.

File:Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement.svg - Wikimedia Commons


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Nope, still coming across as being nasty. It's irrelevant to the thread topic. Do you know the OP? If not, I suggest you stop tryng to justify the comment.
> 
> Ha, show off!! I do too if they're looking!! Springers are too nose to the ground to pay much attention and the doggycam from Zak's walks last week show him out of sight and galloping like a racehorse with his brother!! Hilarious! I'd show you but you'd think I was obsessed with my dogs or something!! :lol:


Knowing the OP doesn't really make any difference as to whether a dog is overweight or not I'm afraid.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Prowl said:


> I feel this thread should be locked anyway as its turned that way and a lot of members commenting can't seem to do so without offending.


Pot...meet kettle.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

LurcherOwner said:


> Knowing the OP doesn't really make any difference as to whether a dog is overweight or not I'm afraid.


Without knowing the history of the dog its not anyones place to comment and if it was an over feeding issue they would all be overweight wouldn't they


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> Without knowing the history of the dog its not anyones place to comment and if it was an over feeding issue they would all be overweight wouldn't they


To be fair malmum has posted about the issues many times.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

MalMum, I have just joind the ranks of the "Wicked Owners Club"

I just shouted at Holly to stop whinging. She has always talked to me but sinse she has gone deaf it has changed from a whisper to a shout.
She wants her tea and it is too early and the sound has got louder and louder, I had to shout 1, so she could hear me and 2, so it would penetrate and she understood.
She did, she is now lying on the sofa, quiet and looking at me with pleading eyes.
So Malmum, can I jion the club plase ?


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

I'm making badges for those of us in the wicked club!


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh god its hilarious isn't it, some heroic completely missing the point going on here  I do wonder how much of it is to cover embarrassment at being caught out in their delusions.

All most of us want to get across is that shouting at a dog that is fearful* is a really bad idea to be posting on an open forum, the uneducated could read it and think its a good route to take. 

I liked this forum as it pointed out the error in my ways (yes I was a shouter and a sprayer and on occasion a slapper and a yanker ) and showed me a more positive route I could take. But frankly some of the comments over something thats potentially damaging or even dangerous on a forum of so called dog lovers disgusts me. And no I dont think thats over reacting, being a drama queen or a wet blanket or whatever else you lot think. 

Of course we all lose our temper, of course if a dog is a long way away or going deaf, it might be necessary to raise your voice, thats not what was potentially being discussed here , if long term forum members could misinterpret malmums post then so could newbies. 

* whether this is what happened in Malmums situation or not, none of us know, not even those of you who thinks its so hilarious and are bringing out the 'pathetic do gooder brush beating implements', she could have been being a complete utter cow  no I dont think she was but no one has any idea.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

I try to lighten the mood a bit because this thread is getting dark and not so nice and get called disgusting, come on people, Malmums dogs are not fearful or traumatised or maltreated.

Can no one see the light, if my remarks offend you, I am sorry but plaese try to get a sense of humour into this otherwise dark thread


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Bisbow said:


> I try to lighten the mood a bit because this thread is getting dark and not so nice and get called disgusting, come on people, Malmums dogs are not fearful or traumatised or maltreated.
> 
> Can no one see the light, if my remarks offend you, I am sorry but plaese try to get a sense of humour into this otherwise dark thread


I don't know I think we've done quite well in comparison to Malmum's last big controversial thread.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> I don't know I think we've done quite well in comparison to Malmum's last big controversial thread.


hee hee - I remember that one!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

cinnamontoast said:


> I'm making badges for those of us in the wicked club!


Can I put my name down, please?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

GingerRogers said:


> Oh god its hilarious isn't it, some heroic completely missing the point going on here  I do wonder how much of it is to cover embarrassment at being caught out in their delusions.
> 
> All most of us want to get across is that shouting at a dog that is fearful* is a really bad idea to be posting on an open forum, the uneducated could read it and think its a good route to take.
> 
> I liked this forum as it pointed out the error in my ways (*yes I was a shouter and a sprayer and on occasion a slapper and a yanker :*eek and showed me a more positive route I could take.





*Though has been cleansed by the good people I say the good people of the Pet forums........praise be.......theres a no more slapping anda no more yanking for you oh yeah praise the lord........
*


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

:Yawn: ................. :Yawn:


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Oh lordy. I just had a massive rant but deleted it. Seriously this forum is like banging your head against a very old-fashioned brick wall half the time. Hence I don't post much any more I guess.

Seriously has noone heard of desensitisation CDs and being prepared?

How about putting the non-fearful dog in a different room so it isn't "upset" by the fearful dog?

How about just having a bit of empathy for an animal that is destressed by something it doesn't understand?

If you choose to train aggressively and spend your life shouting at your dogs/horses then woop-de-do for you - I don't choose to live with my animals that way personally (I'm not whiter than white by any means, I act out occasionally - but I give myself a ******* good talking to and usually observe that it didn't work anyway) and I think we are all happier for it, but that's just my opinion. But that isn't actually what this thread is about.

This thread is about *punishing* a *fearful* dog for being fearful. And *that*, in my humble opinion, is a very wrong, unsympathetic and harsh thing to do. To say nothing for advocating the action on an internet forum...


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I think this needs to be closed now.


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