# why are cats allowed to roam but dogs arent?



## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

I just read the thread about the garden coming down to let the cat out and it got me thinking, why can cats roam free no owner with them, but dogs cant? Many years ago people used to let dogs roam, I remember my nan telling me she would open the door and dogs were in the road, you called your dog and it came back lol! 

I wonder in X amount of years times will cats still be allowed to roam or will people need to keep them in their own gardens/houses like they do dogs & other pets?


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## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

I do think they're very difficult to compare due to their different behaviours.

Where cats tend to roam independently, often without seeking human contact, I think many dogs would be actively looking for people to interact with them. (Gross overgeneralisation, I know  ). What happens if people are frightened of dogs and don't want to interact?

I'm certainly very wary of free roaming dogs, if an owner isn't present. I feel very on edge if I see a dog on its own and if possible, will walk a different way. Cats, on the other hand, I see fleetingly, as they run past of dash into a bush/ under a car etc.

Dogs are also more likely to cause serious damage if provoked (I'm NOT for one moment suggesting all dogs are aggressive, but that they are potentially more dangerous than cats).

However, since having an indoor cat I must admit I don't like the idea of letting cats out alone (despite having outdoor cats in the past)- you just don't know what they're doing, if they're in danger, where they're doing their business, whether they're pestering neighbours etc.

I definitely wouldn't let a dog do that, so why would should I let a cat? It's a tough one to balance, really...


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

I think for me... a dog can't jump scale fences etc and get away from danger. a dog can also do more damage if threatened than a cat and I crap myself when I see a dog of the lead 

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

In terms of law your are legally incharge of your dog and it's actions, your liable for damage caused. Cats aren't seen that way. If your dog bites someone you can face legal action, cats are seen as free willed so if your cat bites someone you aren't. 

I think that must have a lot to do with it.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I think the insight that dogs have owners but cats have staff has transpired to the legal eagles ages ago......

I guess the next logical step would be for the cat to be held responsible for his human.......


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## Xanthia (Jul 6, 2013)

I think basically its because people often just don't understand cats as a species. Just because they can climb fences etc and go off on their own, people often think they should just let them. Whereas if they learned the needs of a cat it would be easier to keep them confined.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Here the laws are beginning to catch up, hopefully soon free roaming cats won't be allowed at all


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> Here the laws are beginning to catch up, hopefully soon free roaming cats won't be allowed at all


But then, cats are not indiginous animals in Australia. The entire ecosystem has been disrupted by the animals the colonists brought with them, so it is only logical that they will do anything to try and reverse that trend.

Over here, most indiginous predators have disappeared, not because of the introduction of alien animals, but by the human race using up all the natural woodlands for domestication and agriculture and killing off most predators that were opportunistic enough to adapt to the presence of ever more humans, because 'they posed a threat'.


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## Figaro (Jul 27, 2013)

Because roaming dogs is a different ballgame and species. I grew up in the 70s and there were a few left to 'walk themselves', poop wherever; they're not as clever or nimble as cats and a bite or scratch results in a trip to hospital.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Just because they are different. I have had dogs and cats and you can't compare them in any way. Its like comparing a horse to a elephant. The RSPCA will intervene with a free roaming dog. In the UK it is generally our culture to let cats come and go,our ecosystem can stand it, although in places like London the house cat is becoming more common. A dog can do serious damage and could bite and get aggressive if scared and hungry. A cat can get up gardener's noses but other than that doesn't really do any serious harm. A cat is more equipped to take care of itself. Most can hunt, its an inbuilt instinct. A dog will go in the bin!


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

According to the Telegraph ,the cats in Australia are on a curfew to be kept in overnight, someone has suggested doing the same here,
Sorry would post link,but no good at it


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## broccoli (Jul 1, 2011)

Jiskefet said:


> I guess the next logical step would be for the cat to be held responsible for his human.......


dont give them ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :laugh:


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

So nice to read so many different views on this!


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## maisiecat (Jul 27, 2011)

jaycee05 said:


> According to the Telegraph ,the cats in Australia are on a curfew to be kept in overnight, someone has suggested doing the same here,
> Sorry would post link,but no good at it


Is this it?

Sydney imposes cat curfew to protect native wildlife - Telegraph


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Jiskefet said:


> But then, cats are not indiginous animals in Australia. The entire ecosystem has been disrupted by the animals the colonists brought with them, so it is only logical that they will do anything to try and reverse that trend.
> .


I've actually never seen or heard of cats owned by friends catching native animals.

It's more about outdoor cats being a pest to neighbours, getting in fights, using gardens as toilets etc.
Many who say they don't like cats are because of roaming cats coming onto their private property.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

jaycee05 said:


> According to the Telegraph ,the cats in Australia are on a curfew to be kept in overnight, someone has suggested doing the same here,
> Sorry would post link,but no good at it


Was it Chris Packham Jaycee?

I 100% agree with him......

Springwatch presenter Chris Packham has called for a change in attitude towards the nation's domestic cats after research claimed felines are one of the biggest threats to US wildlife.

*The Nature Communications study claimed cats in America kill up to 3.7billion birds and 20.7billion mammals annually, making them more dangerous to wildlife than poison, pesticides and traffic accidents*.

As the debate between cat owners and environmentalists intensified today, TV presenter Chris Packham told Yahoo! News he believes there are 'too many cats in the UK'.

He also blamed 'irresponsible' pet owners who have cats 'as a habit' without having them neutered.

*The conservationist said cats should be kept indoors and given collars to reduce their impact on the number of birds and small mammals in this country.*

*He estimated cats currently account for 60million songbird deaths and 210million animal and bird deaths in Britain a year, which is 'exacting a demanding pressure on Britain's wildlife'.*

To combat the effect our feline friends are having on UK wildlife, Packham told Yahoo! there are three ways of reducing attacks on birds and small animals.

Keeping cats in at night, giving them specific collars and bells, and making more efforts to keep their numbers down should all be prioritised, according to the BBC presenter.

Packham insists he 'isn't a cat-hater' and sees them as 'beautiful animals and wonderfully evolved predators', but says the problem 'is with the keepers'.

*Chris Packham described cats as 'beautiful, wonderfully evolved predators' (PA)He told Yahoo! News: "Most people would agree that if you're taking 60million songbirds out a year from one source, that's 60million deaths you don't need*
When it comes to cats it's relatively easy to reduce that total.

"I don't dislike cats, despite the reputation I have - it's not the animal's fault.

"Cats can end up in the hands of people who keep them out of habit, and don't always look after them.

"If there are fewer cats there is less of an impact on wildlife.

"We've known for a long time that this is an issue, and the American study is saying something we've all been expecting

Although Packham states that there are 'too many cats in the UK', their numbers actually appear to be in a slow decline as domestic pets.

A study in 2010 estimated there were over 10million owned cats in the UK. That number has since shrunk to 8million, with dogs overtaking them as the nation's favourite pet.

One in five UK households still have 'at least one cat' however, according to research last year.

Packham says that part of the problem is that cat owners do not neuter their pets - whether due to cost (between £40 and £60 per cat), or pet owners 'not being responsible'.

*He says that keeping cats in at night would reduce predation rates on birds and animals by 50%, while giving cats collars would take the number down by 45%.*

The effect of these 'relatively easy' measures could save tens of millions of birds and small mammals each year, Packham says

He added: "Cats can end up in the hands of people who keep them out of habit, and don't always look after them.

"If there are fewer cats there is less of an impact on wildlife.

"Everyone who says cats are doing what comes naturally should think about the fact that cats are at the top of the food chain in every neighbourhood.

"If there was one in every neighbourhood this wouldn't be a problem, but there is one in every house, and there is a huge imbalance because of this.

If there were 50 lions in a neighbourhood they would end up eating all the people and there would be noone left in the neighbourhood. I think that's a fair comparison."

Cat Protection say there are 'no reliable research about the effects of their hunting habits on declining numbers of birds and small mammals', although they recognise that cats are 'naturally predatory animals.'

They largely agree with Packham's suggested thoughts on collars, keeping cats indoors and neutering, and like the BBC presenter, suggest pet owners should value their garden more.

They believe bird feed should be left on bird tables in gardens, rather than on the ground, and added that the trapping, neutering and releasing of feral cats might also keep their numbers in check.

Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Not sure about The Chris Packham thing.. according to him its amazing that there is a mouse, rat or bird left in the UK! I think we all know that's not true.Downing street certainly needs its cat, even though he is a bit useless!... Did anyone see the Horizon programme about cats? They concluded that cats don't hunt anywhere near as much as people presume.I do agree that cats should be kept in at dawn and dusk, this is prime hunting time. Must admit it does upset me when they bring their 'gifts'. Its not pleasant, especially when they are 'playing' with it.:sad:


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## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

JordanRose said:


> I'm certainly very wary of free roaming dogs. I feel very on edge if I see a dog on its own and if possible, will walk a different way.


I'm the same way with cats tho.

If two cats walk towards me I hate it, and I'll turn around so I dont have to look at their eyes!

I dont have a phobia or anything about cats as I'll happily let next doors cat in and out of their house when needed.. but two together, for me, is horrid.


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Did you know...

Your neighbours are entitled to enjoy their garden without your cat or dog roaming onto their property killing birds, digging or leaving excrement in their garden. If you neighbour asks you to stop your cat or dog from coming onto their property, you must do so. If your animal strays onto their land without permission more than once, it can be seized and you may be fined or prosecuted. 

There are cat enclosures available that allow cats outside but keep them confined, which is safer for your cat too. Ensure your fences are in good repair and your dog cannot be let out accidentally.

If you pet is found wandering off your premises without its council identification tag it can be siezed.



this is how it was when we lived in Melbourne ..... I can honestly say i only saw a cat twice , and that was in both areas that we lived ..... Now i know it depends on where you live , but they just were not around , same as dog crap , no where to be seen ...... what a delight that was .... oh god i'm waffling again


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## JordanRose (Mar 10, 2012)

Gertrude said:


> I'm the same way with cats tho.
> 
> If two cats walk towards me I hate it, and I'll turn around so I dont have to look at their eyes!
> 
> I dont have a phobia or anything about cats as I'll happily let next doors cat in and out of their house when needed.. but two together, for me, is horrid.


True, there will be people who are scared of cats too.

Apart from the fact that my cat's daft as a brush and would be stolen in my area (it's not the nicest of places) I don't like that I'd be potentially subjecting non-cat lovers to his company if he was to go in their gardens and that he may do his business on someone's doorstep. There are some senseless people out there and I would hate for neighbours to dislike my cat and- unlikely but possible- maybe do him some harm.

For me, it's not worth the hassle to let him roam. I wouldn't expect people to clean up after or be forced to interact with my [hypothetical] dog. I don't expect them to with my cat, either.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

tincan said:


> Did you know...
> 
> Your neighbours are entitled to enjoy their garden without your cat or dog roaming onto their property killing birds, digging or leaving excrement in their garden. If you neighbour asks you to stop your cat or dog from coming onto their property, you must do so. If your animal strays onto their land without permission more than once, it can be seized and you may be fined or prosecuted.
> 
> ...


I think this is a cultural thing.There is a good reason for this in Australia. The native animals are at risk and should be protected. I think in the UK there are many people who are happy to see a cat out and about. There are people who do get upset at cats messing in their gardens though. I have always provided an outside litter tray and an indoor one too. Now I can't guarantee my cats have never toileted in someones garden but seeing as both have to cleaned everyday I think they use this more often than not! I must be lucky my neighbours love my outdoor cat, when he was kept in for a bit quite a few people told me they missed him sitting on their fences.


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

Cat proofing has meant the only issue I've had with wildlife is a frog which luckily had no damage.

I'm not sure what the figures are for free roaming cat population are and whether this has increased over time? Has this not gone down? 

The major impact on our eco system is us and our interferance with the natural habitat around us. At the wildlife hospital, I sure do get a lot of baby birds come through because of cats but equally there are animals that have been hit by cars, become trapped in buildings, fallen out of felled trees, trapped in wire. the list goes on. 

Also a lot of the cats I have known, haven't been 'birders' and 'mousers'. Too domesticated and stupid for that. I think a lot of the figures banded about are exaggerated and guess work for cats IMO.


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

Meant to add... I just came back from Thailand, there were loads of roaming dogs. There really was no need to worry about them (Not touch talk or eye contact!). I don't think its a problem for dogs to properly roam, they all have their own boundaries and no interest in people... pretty much like a lot of free roaming cats!


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Is it inbuilt in a cat to roam? I would be really interested to know how many cats have been unable to adapt to indoor life but not knowing any different. For those that don't adapt it would be interesting to know what breed and history, for example feral parent, outdoor parent or purely indoor parent.

In the future I don't want my cats to free roam but can you guarantee that a kitten brought up indoors will not want to venture further. What happens if they do and the area isn't suitable or even that cats are not allowed to roam? If it is the latter is there a solution to this problem not just for that one cat but cats in general?

It is something of a concern of mine for my cat owning future.

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

oggers86 said:


> Is it inbuilt in a cat to roam? I would be really interested to know how many cats have been unable to adapt to indoor life but not knowing any different. For those that don't adapt it would be interesting to know what breed and history, for example feral parent, outdoor parent or purely indoor parent.
> 
> In the future I don't want my cats to free roam but can you guarantee that a kitten brought up indoors will not want to venture further. What happens if they do and the area isn't suitable or even that cats are not allowed to roam? If it is the latter is there a solution to this problem not just for that one cat but cats in general?
> 
> ...


The only cat i have ever had that has genuinely never shown an interest in getting over the fence is my disabled one. All the others over the years have nagged and nagged to go out and explore. Maybe its different if you cat proof with a kitten, maybe they are content with the garden,I really don't know. A cat has an inbuilt need to defend its territory, that's why they patrol and tend to stick to the same route. They are also nosey creatures and like to explore. the other point is that they are natural hunters.So for many cats I would say that yes they have an inbuilt desire to go out. Some cats over the years lose this desire and become more homely as old age sets in. Cats that know they can't defend themselves i:e hearing problems and failing eyesight tend to stick close. Having said that there is a cat in our street with 3 legs that still does his patrol! You never really domesticate a cat like you do a dog, they retain their wild side and thats one of the things that I love about them!


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

P.S all my cats have been everyday moggies. Some breeds such as ragdolls are different i believe.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

This is a fun 'article' (with lots of drawings) on how much cats kill:

How much do cats actually kill? [Infographic] - The Oatmeal


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Two kills a week by one out of three cats would - in my neighbourhood - not even partly make up for what indiginous predators would kill if they hadn't been killed off or chased away by humans.

On the other hand, the bird population is being unnaturally reduced by the actions of humans - NOT by the cats. Proof of this is to be found in the mouse and rat populations, which tend to suffer less from human interference. They are under NO threat of extinction, and, in fact, unless at least one or two of the neighbourhood cats are extremely proficient rat hunters, the council pest control needs to step in to prevent a rat plague along the river.

(I live right on the edge of a town, by a river and close to a national park, in which wildlife is really abundant and, fortunately, at least_ some_ natural predators still exist).


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Honestly, the wildlife population argument is (for me) a minor point (since where I am, there are only pigeons, magpies and other random nothing-special birds). 

The main reason why I don't let my cats out is because of the risk of them getting hurt and the main reason why I'm annoyed at other cats who are let out is because they poop in my garden (smelly when it's warm), are annoying (I know this is just me but I get so annoyed when I see an uncastrated tom wandering outside- there are at least 2 who visit my house regularly), and they limit my activities on my own property (for eg. I can't hang my clothes outside if I want to etc.) because the last time I hung something outside (my canvas kitten enclosure which was about 70 euro), a neighbour's cat peed on it and I had to throw it away.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

pipje said:


> Honestly, the wildlife population argument is (for me) a minor point (since where I am, there are only pigeons, magpies and other random nothing-special birds).
> 
> The main reason why I don't let my cats out is because of the risk of them getting hurt and the main reason why I'm annoyed at other cats who are let out is because they poop in my garden (smelly when it's warm), are annoying (I know this is just me but I get so annoyed when I see an uncastrated tom wandering outside- there are at least 2 who visit my house regularly), and they limit my activities on my own property (for eg. I can't hang my clothes outside if I want to etc.) because the last time I hung something outside (my canvas kitten enclosure which was about 70 euro), a neighbour's cat peed on it and I had to throw it away.


 I get your point and all cats except breeding cats should be neurtered but please remember that some rescue cats (ex strays) really cannot be kept in and a cat shelter (including the RSPCA) will not let you take them if this is what you are planning to do. My ex stray has retained many of the tom characteristics because he was castrated so late at 2 and a half (that's when we found him) I didn't start him roaming, I didn't let him out. He was living outside rough. That outdoor behaviour is too ingrained in him to change without causing him great suffering. I know believe me I tried, in the end I took the RSPCA's advice and let him stay true to his nature. I would much rather he stayed at home :sad:


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Marycat said:


> I get your point and all cats except breeding cats should be neurtered but please remember that some rescue cats (ex strays) really cannot be kept in and a cat shelter (including the RSPCA) will not let you take them if this is what you are planning to do. My ex stray has retained many of the tom characteristics because he was castrated so late at 2 and a half (that's when we found him) I didn't start him roaming, I didn't let him out. He was living outside rough. That outdoor behaviour is too ingrained in him to change without causing him great suffering. I know believe me I tried, in the end I took the RSPCA's advice and let him stay true to his nature. I would much rather he stayed at home :sad:


That's a risk owners take (and it is their right to) BUT then owners who let their cats out should also then be ready to refund whatever damage caused. I have a feeling that if owners would be truly obliged to (and also be truly responsible and be prepared for this), the trend would change quite quickly.

I didn't ask my neighbour for a refund eventhough that kitten enclosure was pretty expensive (used once) simply because I didn't want to start a fight and honestly, I don't think they'd have given me the money anyway. Do I resent them though? Yes, definitely.

Also want to add: I don't blame nor hate the cats, only the owners

Yet another addition: I catsit part-time and have met many kinds of cat owners. I cannot count the many times some have said "oh we don't have a litter box, it's so smelly. We just let them go outside and they'll poop in someone's garden". I think this really shows inconsideration (your cat but you don't want to deal with the smelliness and therefore you let them go out and smellify someone else's place hmpf). (it's a 'you'to those people not really you you)


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

pipje said:


> That's a risk owners take, sure BUT then owners who let their cats out should also then be ready to refund whatever damage caused. I have a feeling that if owners would be truly obliged to (and also be truly responsible and be prepared for this), the trend would change quite quickly.
> 
> I didn't ask my neighbour for a refund eventhough that kitten enclosure was pretty expensive (used once) simply because I didn't want to start a fight and honestly, I don't think they'd have given me the money anyway. Do I resent them though? Yes, definitely.
> 
> Also want to add: I don't blame nor hate the cats, only the owners


If it was my cat that did that to your tent I would definitely without question pay up. My pet, my responsibility. I actually got lumbered with my cat for doing the responsible thing and giving him food and shelter in the freezing winter. I tried everywhere to get him a home and every rescue centre I could think of. All full, so sad and nobody wants a smelly big Tom.. God I love him now. I do my best to be responsible, I have got an outdoor litter tray and am digging a trench. He does tend to go toilet in my garden which I prefer and he is a big friendly lad and has been socialised with my existing cat so he is less likely to bully. I have also got him a cat house and scratching posts, toys etc in the garden in the hope that if it is an interesting place for him he is less likely to spend time in other peoples gardens. You can only try!


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Sadly, not everyone thinks that way. I am quite sure my neighbour wouldn't have refunded (or if they had, they'd resent me forever), especially considering he isn't even castrated (ergo showing that they are irresponsible and inconsiderate so unlikely to take responsibility for the enclosure). Furthermore, I don't have concrete proof- I saw him but it's not like I took a video or something 

It's always possible to have a garden which a cat can't leave (but I won't deny that it does look like prison and not very aesthetically pleasing). 

Finally want to say; I think it's lovely that you saved this boy.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

pipje said:


> Sadly, not everyone thinks that way. I am quite sure my neighbour wouldn't have refunded (or if they had, they'd resent me forever), especially considering he isn't even castrated (ergo showing that they are irresponsible and inconsiderate so unlikely to take responsibility for the enclosure). Furthermore, I don't have concrete proof- I saw him but it's not like I took a video or something
> 
> It's always possible to have a garden which a cat can't leave (but I won't deny that it does look like prison and not very aesthetically pleasing).
> 
> Finally want to say; I think it's lovely that you saved this boy.


How terrible your neighbours cat is not castrated. No wonder there are so many unwanted cats. I tried the cat proofing. When he nearly took his claws off in desperation I knew it had to go. £600 quid wasted- oh well. At least I tried.

And thank you for your kind words.. he is a total git of a cat but I adore him


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

I think cats with owners should not be allowed to roam. While there are a few responsible owners that will go nd clean up a neighbour´s garden their cat has soilled, most wont. If you can say "I own a cat" then you should be responsible for it and respect people who don´t want your pet in their property. Most people who don´t own cats or like them suffer them and it´s not the animals fault, it is the owner who doesn´t make an effort. I do understand that some cats are miserable when they are locked it but a garden is better than nothing and I think a lot of cat owners have a very unfair attitude towards their neighbours. I especially have a problem with people who have cats and train them to go outside to do their business on purpose, that is extremely inconsiderate to other people´s gardens. A lot of cat owners are not responsible in my opinion.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> I do understand that some cats are miserable when they are locked it but a garden is better than nothing and I especially have a problem with people who have cats and train them to go outside to do their business on purpose, that is extremely inconsiderate to other peopleÂ´s gardens.


I was of the attitude that a garden is better than nothing and kept them indoors only just before cat proofing in the hope they would be happy having outdoor access. Unfortunately they don't agree.

I think society has a very accepting attitude as a whole towards free roaming cats as it is deemed the norm hence why ours were allowed in the first place. I don't know any person who owns a cat and keeps them in but I do know of a handful who don't like cats in their garden.

I think unless there is a law which forces them to be indoors it will take a long time for people to stop free roaming cats.

Toileting in someones something you can't prevent if a cat free roams. Mine have a litter tray but they still go outside and I suspect not just in our garden but it is impossible to track as they go in more than one other garden and there are lots of other cats in the area.

The trouble of implementing such a law is against free roaming cats is what happens to the cats like mine who won't accept confinement. Do we put up with their unhappiness or is it kinder to PTS after say a year of misery because there is no other alternative. However it would lead the way to a potential new future of cats who are more than happy to accept limited territory and eventually it could be a win win situation.

Are cats in Australia not allowed to free roam full stop? If not, has it always been the case, if not how did it come about and how was it received by cats and owners?

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

If a law was bought in to stop cats roaming in the uk - surely short term it would lead to an awful lot of cats in rescue being put to sleep as many people would find (rightly or wrongly) having a house cat an alien concept.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Laurac said:


> If a law was bought in to stop cats roaming in the uk - surely short term it would lead to an awful lot of cats in rescue being put to sleep as many people would find (rightly or wrongly) having a house cat an alien concept.


 I tell you something Laurac I would be tempted to let him have a quick death that spend his life like a stuffed toy. Its different with kittens and some fancy breeds but you cannot treat an ex stray in the same way, they suffer immensely. The RSPCA understands this as do every animal shelter I have come across. The RSPCA in fact advised me not to cat proof. I wish I had listened.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Marycat said:


> I also cat proofed and I am sorry when my cat nearly ripped his claws off in desperation to get out to his territory, when he started to attack my elderly housecat, when his spirit was beginning to be crushed -it bloody well came down. I finally realised that you just cannot keep some cats particularly ones like mine, an ex stray that I adopted after I found him whimpering and starving in the shed. Nobody wanted him, the rescues were full.Its all very well getting on your high horse but think about what you are actually asking me to do. Put my animal in danger?? If, and its a big if I can find a rescue he will likely spend months if not years in a cage cause nobody wants big black not so nice looking ex Toms. They want cute cats like yours. Perhaps I should shoot him and you won't have to worry about your roses no more? Or seeing as he has had the lousiest of lousiest starts shall I love him and do my best by him? I would have thought as a supposed animal lover you would prefer me to do the latter. I did not create the situation, his ex 'owner' did. I am picking up the pieces so I will thank you to think a bit more before you shoot EVERYBODY with a free roaming cat down.


Well it is my opinion and I have a right to voice it without being told I´m shooting anyone. You have had your experience and have made a desicion you feel is best for your cat. I do consider that there are a few responsible cat owners who will do their best for their pets not to disrupt their neighbours or even go and repair damages if any but I have really read some very annoying opinions from cat owners with access to the outside. Some people´s cats just limit themselves to visiting neighbours and perching on their roofs and they are actually liked but some do more than that and it causes a lot of annoyance.
My aunt´s cats go out she has 3 litter trays at home and they are used, everyone in the neighbourhood knows them and likes them. They spend the night at home and go out after their breakfast. It is a closed estate.
Some members here have explained that they prefer their cats to use litter trays, they have provided them and they refuse to use them and a few have told their neighbours to imform them should their cats use their gardens as toliets. That for me is being responsible because they show that they actually care about what their pet does outside the house and eventhough they give them that freedom they dont want it to disturb others.
But how many people do that? how many people with free roaming cats actually bother to ask their neighbours if "Tommy´s" visits are inconvenient? 
If your neighbour doesn´t want your cat on his property what would you do? would you get angry if he warned you, you didn´t pay attention and he harmed your cat? What I have clear is that it isn´t the cat´s fault but he has an owner, the cat isn´t a feral, you (not anyone in particular) are responsible for it).
So for me, there are cases and cases to be considered with their individual circumstances but there are always two sides to a story. Also it´s not just soling or spoling people´s gardens, it´s the sadness that we feel when we read a thread about a cat that has been hit by a car and normally it is serious. At the end of the day, we all make desicions that we feel our best for our pets but I feel that we have to accept and try to find out if our desicions are inconviniencing anyone else.
Would cat owners that free roam be willing to pay a fine or damages their pets produce? This is not aimed at those cats that happily go out for their walks and do no harm but we all know of people who aren´t happy with other´s actions.
But what I have a problem with is people that get a cat and just put it outside without providing a litter tray because they don´t want the inconvenience that comes with it.
This are my general thoughts, I don´t know you or your cat so it´s not aimed directly at you but I feel that the law should be for pets in general not just for dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jiskefet said:


> ...cats are not indiginous animals in Australia.


Domestic cats aren't "native" to the USA, Europe, or the UK, the Orient, Asia, Central or S. America, 
Canada, the many Pacific & Atlantic islands, etc.

The ancestor-species of domestic cats came from Northern Africa.

Everywhere else in the *world*, they've been introduced - by humans.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Figaro said:


> [Dogs] are not as clever or nimble as cats, & *a [dog] bite or scratch results in a trip to hospital.*


Actually, because cats have needlelike teeth & claws that inject bacteria well-into the subsurface tissue, 
CATS are far-worse for infections, especially serious infections that require medical care: IV-antibiotics, 
surgery, etc.

Don't take my word for it - 
Why Cat Bites Are More Dangerous Than You Might Think - PawNation

"nearly 50% of cat-bites become infected".



> _
> 
> Professionals recommend that you always come to the hospital if you receive a deep cat bite that punctures
> the skin. To treat this wound, you will need prophylactic antibiotics, something not available through
> ...


scratches:

Cat scratch disease: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

this man needed a year off-work to recover:
It was just a small scratch from a cat - but six days later my heart stopped | Mail Online

QUOTE, 
_"After his [cardiac valve replacement surgery], Jon was given *6 weeks of intravenous antibiotics*  
but it took a further 11 months until he was fit enough to return to work."_

.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

spotty cats said:


> I've actually never seen or heard of cats owned by friends catching native animals.


there have been multiple studies in Oz, on the destruction of native-species by cats - 
here's just one:
CSIRO PUBLISHING - Wildlife Research

_"The amount of prey taken was not significantly influenced by cat gender, age when neutered, or cat breed. 
Nor did belling, or the number of meals provided per day, have a significant influence on the amount of prey 
caught. 
The age of the cat & the proportion of nights spent outside explained approximately 11% of the variation 
in the amount of prey caught by individual cats.

In all, 70% of cats were observed to catch less than 10 prey over 12 months,
but for 6% of cats, more than 50 prey were recorded [in the same period]."_


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Marycat said:


> [the Horizon program] concluded that cats don't hunt anywhere near as much as people *presume*.


it's not *presumption - * there are years of data, from many countries.

UK study - 
Elsevier


> Cats equipped with a bell returned 34% fewer mammals & 41% fewer birds [vs] a plain collar.
> Those equipped with an electronic sonic device returned 38% fewer mammals & 51% fewer birds [vs] a plain collar.
> There was no significant difference in prey return rates by cats wearing collars equipped with one bell,
> two bells or the sonic device.


For me, "1/3 less" is still 2/3 dead - & not a significant improvement.

Bristol, UK - 
Impact of predation by domestic cats Felis catus in an urban area - BAKER - 2005 - Mammal Review - Wiley Online Library
_"We quantified the minimum number of animals killed annually by cats in a 4.2-sq-km area of Bristol, UK, 
by asking owners to record prey animals returned home by their pets. 
The potential impact of cat predation on prey species was estimated by comparing the number of animals 
killed with published estimates of prey density & annual productivity.

Predator density was *229 cats / sq-km.*

5 mammal, 10 bird & one amphibian prey species were recorded. 
Mean predation rate was 21 prey/ cat /annum. 
The most common prey species was the wood mouse, Apodemus sylvaticus.

Predation on birds was greatest in spring and summer, & probably reflects the killing of juveniles.

For three prey species (house sparrow Passer domesticus, dunnock Prunella modularis, 
robin Erithacus rubecula), estimated predation rates were high relative to annual productivity, such that 
predation by cats may have created a dispersal sink for juveniles from more productive neighbouring areas. 
The impact of cats on these species therefore warrants further investigation."_

NZ - "The eradication of feral cats (Felis catus) from Little Barrier Island, New Zealand"
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

_"Feral cats probably reached Little Barrier Island in about 1870. 
They contributed to the total extinction of the Little Barrier snipe (Coenocorypha aucklandica barrierensis), 
the local extinction of North Island saddleback (Philesturnus carunculatus rufusater) 
& the severe reduction in numbers of grey‐faced petrel (Pterodroma macroptera gouldi), 
Cook's petrel (P. cookii) & black petrel (Proeellaria parkinsoni), 
plus the decline of lizard and tuatara species.

Sporadic cat control was carried out on Little Barrier from 1897 to 1977. 
A determined eradication attempt commenced in July 1977 was completed on 23 June 1980. 
Cage traps, leg‐hold traps, dogs and 1080 poison were used, but leg‐hold traps and 1080 poison were 
the only effective methods. Altogether, 151 cats were known to have been killed before the eradication 
was declared complete. Important lessons learnt can be transferred to other feral cat eradication programmes. 
The responses of the bird populations are described elsewhere (Girardet et. al. 2001)."_

NZ - "Seventeen years of predation by one suburban cat in New Zealand"
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_"The 558 prey items brought home by one domestic cat, recorded over its 17‐year lifetime, 
included 221 mice, 63 rats, 35 rabbits, 4 hares and 2 weasels.

The cat hunted up to 600-m from the house, & prey was caught both inside and outside the 0.5-ha garden.

Of the 223 birds brought in, 54 were native, including 43 silvereyes (Zosterops lateralis), but those killed 
were quickly replaced, so there was always a resident population of 1-2 pairs.

The other known native birds comprised five fantails (Rhipidura fuliginosa), four warblers (Gerygone igata), 
a kingfisher (Halcyon sancta), and a shining cuckoo (Chrysococcyx lucidus).

Only nine skinks (Cyclodina aenea) & one frog (Litoria raniformis) were brought in."_

"The cats of Herekopare Island, New Zealand; their history, ecology and affects on birdlife
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QUOTE,
_"House cats were introduced to Herekopare Island, a mammal-free island of about 28 ha near Stewart Island, 
in about 1925.

In winter 1970, the total population of 33 cats (20 males, 13 females) - a density of 1.2 cats/ha - was killed, 
mainly by trapping. Examination of stomach contents and scats showed that the cats fed mainly on petrels, 
supplemented by land birds and insects.

The bird life of Herekopare Island was studied by H. Guthrie-Smith in 1911, L. E. Richdale in the early 1940s, 
& New Zealand Wildlife Service staff in 1968 and 1970. Their accounts indicate that a vast breeding population 
of diving petrels and thousands of broad-billed prions were probably exterminated by the cats, 
though fairy prions and sooty shearwaters persisted.

Among land birds, the yellow-crowned parakeet, robin, fernbird, brown creeper, Stewart Island snipe, 
and banded rail were exterminated. 
Two other species, the red-crowned parakeet & tomtit, probably disappeared but subsequently recolonised the island."_


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lunabuma said:


> I just came back from Thailand, there were loads of roaming dogs.
> There really was no need to worry about them (Not touch talk or eye contact!).
> 
> I don't think it's a problem for dogs to properly roam, they all have their own boundaries & no interest in people.


my client, whose Hearing-Ear dog i instructed her in training, COULD NOT TAKE THAT DOG with them, 
when her hubby accepted a 2-year contract to work in Thailand. Why?

Because the Thai govt pays ppl to scatter poison-baits to kill those roaming dogs, & even one's own 
walled garden is not SAFE from the baits - they are thrown *everywhere,* on public & private property, 
without any appeal or consideration by the tenants.

Also, *rabies deaths in humans* are quite common in Thailand, 
which is why they kill the dogs: Dog-bites are the most common cause.

So... rather than S/N & vaccinate, they fight an endless war of "kill them all", which fails.

Rabies in Thailand. [Epidemiol Infect. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI
1998:
_"The proportion of fluorescent *antibody positive dogs*, among those examined for rabies, 
*averaged 54% * indicating that rabies is still a major public health threat.

Canine rabies vaccination is not usually performed in animals < 3 months old. 
However, this study revealed that 14% of rabid dogs were less than 3-MO
& 42% were under or equal to, 6-MO. 
This is the age group most likely to interact with humans and other dogs." _

1994 - 1999 retrospective:
Dog rabies in Bangkok. [J Med Assoc Thai. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI

_"the percentages of dogs with positive Fluorescent antibody test (FA) remains approx 40%.

About 62% of rabid dogs were less than one year old. Dogs at this age are more active, 
& most have not been adequately vaccinated. 
Approximately 80% of rabid dogs had never been vaccinated against rabies."_

Stray dogs in Bangkok, Thailand: rabies vir... [Dev Biol (Basel). 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

_"Dog-bite related rabies cases in humans account for 70 - 95% of rabies related deaths."
... 
Saliva & serum samples were taken from 3,314 stray dogs, captured between Dec 2003 & June 2004."_

That's 3300 dogs in 6-mos, dead; they're captured, killed, & sampled.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

oggers86 said:


> Is it inbuilt in a cat to roam?


no, luckily; POUNCING on things that move right, sound right, etc, is hard-wired.
Roaming over the neighborhood is optional.

I've adopted or simply taken in former street-strays who did just fine, as indoors-only or out 
only in cat-proofed areas; i've also taught cats to walk on a leash & harness, but DON'T use 
a figure-8 continuous harness! Use an H-harness, & buckle it snugly so the cat can't wriggle out.

The key with harnesses is to introduce it indoors, let the cat wear it without any leash, & once they
are ignoring it, put a lightweight leash on it, & let THEM lead U... till they are quite comfy.

Only after they are happy to wear one indoors, with a leash, & walk readily on it, do U go outside - 
be prepared to have the cat freeze in open areas, spook at sounds, etc, till they are accustomed.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

pipje said:


> I cannot count the many times some have said, "oh, we don't have a litter box, it's so smelly.
> We just let them go outside and they'll poop in someone's garden".
> 
> I think this really shows inconsideration -- your cat but you don't want to deal with the smelliness,
> & therefore you let them go out & smellify someone else's place, hmpf!


Precisely.

my downstairs neighbor & i tried to have a veg-garden in the fenced yard below my 2nd-floor apt, 
behind her bedroom window - All we "grew" was cat-sh!t. :mad5:

My 2nd-floor door was protected by an added DOOR on the entry to the porch, at the stairs - 
a former neighbor's male cat JUMPED from the stairs onto the extended balcony, then SPRAYED 
my door-jamb -- tho there were no cats or dogs resident in my apt! -- & every damn day that 
the temp was over 40-degrees F, when i opened the door, it *stank.*
I used enzyme-cleaner, Nil-Odor, etc - i could 'fade' it, but it wasn't gone, & opening the storm door 
released a pungent stench, more than a YEAR later. :incazzato:


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Why don't you just drop your crusade....
The last SEVEN posts were all yours, which only proves my point.......

No-one cares for your eccentric views

You are merely preaching to yourself.

Besides....
the European wildcat is, or at least used to be, indiginous to Europe till man killed it off in most parts. But it still survives.
The feral domestic cat just took over where it left of in the places where it didn't.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Precisely.
> 
> my downstairs neighbor & i tried to have a veg-garden in the fenced yard below my 2nd-floor apt,
> behind her bedroom window - All we "grew" was cat-sh!t. :mad5:
> ...


Oh, poor you, you have been overtaken by NATURE.......

Animals DO reclaim the territory man stole from them, you know....


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jiskefet said:


> The last SEVEN posts were all yours...


Because i just saw this thread, around 7:30-pm EDT - 
each of my comments replied to a specific prior post, as does this one.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

So.......
you are still on a crusade, and you are still being utterly silly

Please start by getting your facts right.
Why is it that Americans seem to think that what applies, or is supposed to apply, to the USA, applies to all the wolrd?????

Bloody colonist arrogance


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jiskefet said:


> Oh, poor you, you have been overtaken by NATURE...
> 
> Animals DO *reclaim the territory* man stole from them, you know.


the same tuxedo-tom who sprayed my door, also jumped into the open window of another neighbor's 
car, & sprayed the front & back seats -

but i suppose that was "*nature*" & he was "*"reclaiming his territory"?*

the nature of the stink meant that my neighbors drove with the windows down, even in 30-degrees F, 
& couldn't turn the heater on, as it made the smell intensify. Wanna trade cars? 
 I'm sure they'd be happy to swap.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> POUNCING on things that move right, sound right, etc, is hard-wired. Roaming over the neighborhood is optional.


This needs to be corroborated. Who has proven that 'roaming over the neighbourhood is optional'?

You really do need to give reference to the scientific study which has proved that assertion. It's sloppy and unbecoming to just blurt it out like a personal prejudice.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CoCoTrio said:


> Who has proven that 'roaming over the neighbourhood is optional'?


How many comments in this thread, & in the prior locked thread, 
included cat-owners with formerly OUTdoor cats who kept them happily 
INdoors, after they'd adopted them? [Perhaps U could count.  ]

I'm one who's had 3 former street-strays, all of whom became indoor-only cats.

I've also had cats who were reared as indoor-only, & didn't WANT to go outside - the closest they got 
was looking out the windows, to watch birds at the feeder.

In my childhood, our dam & daughter Siamese queens lived to be 19 [mum] & 21 [daughter] - 
Beauty, the daughter, had never gone outside willingly in her life, other than in a carrier 
to the vet's, & she'd yowl the entire trip, only silent when we entered the vet's office. 
She ASKED to be let out one day, while i was in collage, walked about 10-ft from the door, 
fell to her side, & died. It was her first & last trip out of doors, at her own request.

Her mother, Pretty, was already 3-YO when i was born - those cats saw me thru my life, 
till i was 22-YO.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> Are cats in Australia not allowed to free roam full stop? If not, has it always been the case, if not how did it come about and how was it received by cats and owners?


In some places cats are not allowed to be owned at all, other areas they must be indoor/enclosed. Some places have overnight curfews, others no laws at all.

There are no laws where I live but indoor cats are very common these days, as are enclosures. There's only 1 cat in my neighbourhood allowed to roam, and she's not let out every day.

Outdoor cats used to be very common, but now with education people realise they needn't go out, bothering neighbours, getting run over, killed by wildlife.

My sister had hers outdoors 24/7, after losing 4 of them she finally enclosed the car port. The cats were 8, 6, 5 and a kitten, had no trouble adjusting to being inside or enclosed.



leashedForLife said:


> there have been multiple studies in Oz, on the destruction of native-species by cats -


Well aware of studies, was speaking about _personal experience._


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## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

cats are classed as vermin they are free to roam


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> How many comments in this thread, & in the prior locked thread,
> included cat-owners with formerly OUTdoor cats who kept them happily
> INdoors, after they'd adopted them? [Perhaps U could count.  ]
> 
> ...


So why is it that there is far bigger incidence of cat behavioural problems in the USA? Thats not just my opinion its fact. Look at the studies you are so fond of on the internet. Why is declawing not outlawed in the US yet? Is it because in countries where we are a bit more pet friendly we don't need to take such drastic action to get our pets to conform to our lifestyle? Perhaps we are a bit more enlightened over here and don't feel the need to be so barbaric. Exactly the reasons why we don't tend to carry guns and gas people to death....


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I do agree with keeping a cat confined to the garden for his own safety IF that particular cat is fine with the situation. But it is far from ideal for a cat. A cat should really be able to patrol, hunt, run, climb trees. 
The same goes for dogs. If you have a dog, you should take it to a place where it is allowed to run free on a daily basis. Walking him on a leash is NOT enough.

Why do people think they have the right to restrict other creatues' freedom, not for their benefit, but for ours? WE claim the animals' habitats, make useful animals work for us and put others on display in cages. WE transport them all over the world because WE deem them useful in this alien environment, too. And when, in doung so, WE destroy the ecosystem, the animals get punished by being locked up while the human race goes on destroying THEIR planet. 
Earth belongs to ALL life forms, but MAN destroys it - and them - for his own greedy benefit.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> How many comments in this thread, & in the prior locked thread,
> included cat-owners with formerly OUTdoor cats who kept them happily
> INdoors, after they'd adopted them? [Perhaps U could count.  ]


Oh I understand. Your meaning was that 'roaming over the neighbourhood' is optional _for the owners_. That hardly needed you to bother pointing it out. Of course cat owners have the option of controlling their cats. We all know that.

You wrote that *'POUNCING on things ... is hard-wired. Roaming over the neighbourhood is optional'*

You suggest the first phrase to refer to the traits of the cat, and the second to the preferences of the human. You can see why that's likely to cause confusion. 'Sloppy' is about right.

So cats pounce on things, and humans sometimes keep them indoors. Ok. That's not added anything at all to the debate and you might just as well not have not bothered. Save us all from an unnecessary statement of the bleedin' obvious.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> Why don't you just drop your crusade....
> The last SEVEN posts were all yours, which only proves my point.......
> 
> No-one cares for your eccentric views
> ...


Hope we can debate this without getting personal

LFL views are far from eccentric, conservationists the world over are concerned by the impact Domestics are having on ecosystems.

The domestic cat, can never fill the niche left behind by the Wildcat without having a detrimental effect on the natural world. Wildcat populations(pre persecution & hybridisation) , like other predators, were kept in check through a series of environmental limiting factors; the availability of suitable territories & the abundance of prey. When prey is scarce, likewise, wildcat numbers drop. This is the balance of nature. Domestic cat population is never affected by prey or territory, their numbers continue to grow even when prey becomes scarce.

It is persecution by gamekeepers & interbreeding with domestic cats that will bring about the extinction of the UK's last wild feline-the beautiful Scottish Wildcat - the Highland Tiger

'2013 will decide whether the Scottish wildcat lives or dies': Highland tiger on its last legs following persecution by gamekeepers and interbreeding with domestic cats - Nature - Environment - The Independent

.

.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

I would feel a responsibility for the environment if I allowed my cat to become feral. But since I feed him and care for him he's no different to a dog in his impact on the environment. Sure he sometimes catches rodents and birds, but then my dog used to catch rabbits and pheasants. 

Both cats and dogs have an impact on the environment in terms of food consumption, and they are not dissimilar. If we wanted to do the best for the environment and for sustainability of global food production and consumption we'd all get rid of all our pets, cats and dogs and all.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

CoCoTrio said:


> I would feel a responsibility for the environment if I allowed my cat to become feral. But since I feed him and care for him he's no different to a dog in his impact on the environment. Sure he sometimes catches rodents and birds, but then my dog used to catch rabbits and pheasants.
> 
> Both cats and dogs have an impact on the environment in terms of food consumption, and they are not dissimilar. If we wanted to do the best for the environment and for sustainability of global food production and consumption we'd all get rid of all our pets, cats and dogs and all.


No responsible dog owner would ever allow their dog freedom to roam & we don't have many dogs living feral, so its doubtful they are having any significant impact on wildlife populations in this country.

There are millions of cats free roaming..they are far more populous than of any of our indigenous wild predators, even if only a fraction are proficient hunters it is going to have an impact on wild prey species + a likely knock on effect for some of our indigenous predators as they are out competed for food.

I think they key is for owners to do everything possible to minimize their own pets impact on the natural world. Just keeping cats in at night would make a huge difference

.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> How many comments in this thread, & in the prior locked thread,
> included cat-owners with formerly OUTdoor cats who kept them happily
> INdoors, after they'd adopted them? [Perhaps U could count.  ]
> 
> ...


Makes me smile these 'my cat doesn't want to go out' posts. Why on earth do we go to the bother of acquiring cages and cat proofing?? If i was utterly confident that my cat didn't want to go out I really would go and open the door and have the total satisfaction of knowing that was my cats choice. That's what i did with Mary by the way but then she is a disabled cat and is probably aware that she is in danger not a young healthy one. Or is that people have bought a cat into their home fully knowing that the environment high risk to cats with high traffic etc. in that case is it not more about fulfilling your needs rather than the cats? If its a rescue cat then at least its a comfort to know it has a home but if you have got a specially bred cat for this purpose isn't that selfish? Not addressed to you LFL, you at least took in ex strays and ruined their lives, sorry extended their lives but just general questions? Why turn your home into Alcatraz if the cat is so happy? Why have a cat if your environment is so awful? If its not about fulfilling your needs is there another need I am not seeing? Please tell me without shouting at me and abuse. I think these are valid points and uncomfortable as it we should be discussing them.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

CoCoTrio said:


> I would feel a responsibility for the environment if I allowed my cat to become feral. But since I feed him and care for him he's no different to a dog in his impact on the environment. Sure he sometimes catches rodents and birds, but then my dog used to catch rabbits and pheasants.
> 
> Both cats and dogs have an impact on the environment in terms of food consumption, and they are not dissimilar. If we wanted to do the best for the environment and for sustainability of global food production and consumption we'd all get rid of all our pets, cats and dogs and all.


If we wanted to do what's really good for the environment, we'd decimate the human race.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

We're part of the environment too, Jiskefet so decimating us defeats the purpose

Marycat: True. My cats are trained not to go out (one was allowed out a long time ago but at some point, a neighbour came to us to let us know she didn't like it as the cat would enter her house and she's allergic to cats so we confined her. After a few years, we got a pedigree so that means all cats aren't allowed out) so they don't beg for it but sure if the door was left open, they would venture out!

Still, I don't think they are terribly sad in here. They have plenty of toys and windows, they have each other and space-wise probably large enough for 3 cats too. They seem quite contented (the one who used to go out obviously took some getting used to initially but we were just really strict and after half a year or so, she gave up and stopped asking) so I don't feel guilty at all.

About the whole matter: as I said, I still think people who are inconsiderate will continue being inconsiderate. Nothing which can be done about it. The ones in the middle (who truly do not know they are being inconsiderate) will hopefully change after some awareness campaigns (I will not be surprise if the law changes before I die). I lived in an apartment before this and truly had no idea how iritating roaming cats were. Now that I live in a house with a garden, my view on them have gone from "never see them, don't give a rat's ass either way" to "I hate owners of roaming cats".


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> No responsible dog owner would ever allow their dog freedom to roam....


That'd be me then. 

Our dog liked to sit outside and had his freedom to go anywhere he wanted. Of course, being a properly trained and socialised dog he liked to stay nearby, but on rare occasions he'd go off exploring and maybe rabbiting and come back hours later looking tired and happy.

Were we irresponsible? No one ever complained.  He was very popular with the neighbours, lovely old fellow that he was. They all knew him well. He never bothered the sheep. We'd have heard about it in no uncertain terms if he had. We could have tied him to a tree, but we didn't. He liked to go to the stream to drink. He was very obedient and would run back in from the field immediately if called.

But I imagine the rabbits might have preferred that he was tied up. We could have intervened in the natural relationship between hunter and prey, but in the circumstances I think it would have been a shame.


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## ljs85 (Jun 2, 2012)

Marycat said:


> Makes me smile these 'my cat doesn't want to go out' posts. Why on earth do we go to the bother of acquiring cages and cat proofing?? .


I chose to create a cat run (attached to my house), to enrich my cat's lives, in the same way that I buy toys and cat trees. They had never shown any real interest in going outside before (and I have had them over a year) but I thought it would be good for them (and me, as I can now at least open the kitchen window fully!).

This video shows how much they wanted to go outside, at least for the first couple of days, they are better at going out now. 
Cat run with everone - YouTube

I don't see a problem with a cat fully indoors, a cat with a cat run, or a cat with outside access. I think that this forum (at least for me personally) has helped me make an informed choice, as I didn't even know about cat runs before.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

What's best in each individual situation for each individual cat... and no compulsion either way. :thumbsup:


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

CoCoTrio said:


> What's best in each individual situation for each individual cat... and no compulsion either way. :thumbsup:


I agree with this- provided owners of roaming cats accept the additional risk of their cats being hurt and also will assume the responsibility if their cats damage something.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

ljs85 said:


> I chose to create a cat run (attached to my house), to enrich my cat's lives, in the same way that I buy toys and cat trees. They had never shown any real interest in going outside before (and I have had them over a year) but I thought it would be good for them (and me, as I can now at least open the kitchen window fully!).
> 
> This video shows how much they wanted to go outside, at least for the first couple of days, they are better at going out now.
> Cat run with everone - YouTube
> ...


 Yes good point. I see that your cats are happy!! I think the same as you(having an indoor and a outdoor cat) There is no issue if the owners and cats are happy. If a cat likes to be walked on a lead and loves his run then all power to the cat and the owners. Its great stuff. Its just this your cat MUST be kept in attitude I don't like and the assumption that everyone who has a cat that roams is irresponsible. I raise these points because I don't think life is black and white..and ok I admit it .. rattle a few 'cages' :biggrin:Sorry couldn't resist. Seriously your run is lovely and so are your cats. x


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

pipje said:


> We're part of the environment too, Jiskefet so decimating us defeats the purpose


Not true.
The environment you are referring to is a very artificial, unnatural environment, not the proper environment as it should be.

The world can facilitate about 10% of the current world population in a natural manner, leaving enough space for other species to also live in a natural manner, without being unnaturally restricted, caged in meat factories, or driven to extinction.

The fact we are still surviving with this ever expanding population is solely because we have driven other species out of their habitats and into extinction, or turned them into food factories, and destroyed complete ecosystems by turning them into monocultures of food sources.

**** sapiens is totally out of control, and unless the population drops very soon, the earth will no longer be able to provide enough food and water for all humans, let alone for all the other species.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

pipje said:


> I agree with this- provided owners of roaming cats accept the additional risk of their cats being hurt and also will assume the responsibility if their cats damage something.


Definitely. If my cat damaged something I am responsible. The same way if your child breaks a window you are responsible.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Marycat said:


> Definitely. If my cat damaged something I am responsible. The same way if your child breaks a window you are responsible.


Implementation will be hard. Owners would just have to be ready to pay up without concrete proof (unless perhaps a camera around the neck?)

It's sad because more often than not, the cat ends up paying for it. My in-laws allow their cats to roam free and everyday, one would steal a gorgeous fish (the kind with lovely fins and tails) everyday. My in-laws were very proud of this and thought it was great fun (even made a video and everything). Certainly no one ever went to the neighbour's to apologise/refund the poor man for his beautiful fish. Not to my surprise, a few months later, poor cat staggers up the porch and dies (probably poisoned). Of course, this shows the neighbour is also a sicko but because the cat owners did not take responsibility, the poor cat paid for it with her life. I hate stories like that but can see why they happen.

Ah well. I guess my only escape from cats spraying over my herbs or peeing on my stuff or catching my fish/chickens/whatever is winning the lottery haha. I'll buy a big house and cat proof it- perfect for my cats who would love to hang out in the garden and to ensure strange cats don't enter


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

CoCoTrio said:


> That'd be me then.
> 
> Our dog liked to sit outside and had his freedom to go anywhere he wanted. Of course, being a properly trained and socialised dog he liked to stay nearby, but on rare occasions he'd go off exploring and maybe rabbiting and come back hours later looking tired and happy.
> 
> ...


Anyone who allows their dog to go off unsupervised, unless its on their own land, is being irresponsible imo...anything could have happened to him, its our responsibility to keep our pets safe.

There are so few dogs allowed to go off hunting at will, that their impact on wildlife populations as a whole will be negligible. Its against the law in this country to allow dogs to roam so most dogs tend to be kept under control. You are very much in the minority in th UK. If everyone had the same mindset and allowed their dogs to come & go as they pleased the impact on wildlife could be quite a different scenario, 10 million free roaming dogs could be almost as detrimental to wildlife as 9 million domestic cats.

What if your dog had gone after a hare or another species protected under the hunting act? You would have been breaking the law.

.

.

.


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## Twiggs (Jul 9, 2012)

pipje said:


> We're part of the environment too, Jiskefet so decimating us defeats the purpose".


Actually (and I know I'm being pedantic) the word decimate means to kill one in ten, which would still leave a world population of 6.3 billion.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Twiggs said:


> Actually (and I know I'm being pedantic) the word decimate means to kill one in ten, which would still leave a world population of 6.3 billion.


Yes, but that word is now commonly used to mean kill a large part of the population. It's always funny when people say these things because I always wonder why they don't start with themselves (and no, I don't mean it personally)?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Twiggs said:


> Actually (and I know I'm being pedantic) the word decimate means to kill one in ten, which would still leave a world population of 6.3 billion.


My humble apologies for making a mistake....
Maybe the fact that English isn't my native tongue and I have never even lived in an English-speaking country explains how I could be so utterly stupid.....


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

pipje said:


> I agree with this- provided owners of roaming cats accept the additional risk of their cats being hurt and also will assume the responsibility if their cats damage something.


Absolutely.

If my neighbour complains about cat poo on their lawn I'll go out right away day or night to clear it up and apologise. I don't care whose cat has left it there, I'll clear it up anyway. 
Of course damage must be paid for. 
Of course we accept the risks out on the street.

We should all live, and let live, and share some things in the community. Roaming cats, barking dogs, babies crying, 2am techno music, barbecue smells, cups of sugar...

Let's not hate each other.


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## Twiggs (Jul 9, 2012)

Jiskefet said:


> My humble apologies for making a mistake....
> Maybe the fact that English isn't my native tongue and I have never even lived in an English-speaking country explains how I could be so utterly stupid.....


Sorry if you took it as a criticism, was not intended as such.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

pipje said:


> Implementation will be hard. Owners would just have to be ready to pay up without concrete proof (unless perhaps a camera around the neck?)
> 
> It's sad because more often than not, the cat ends up paying for it. My in-laws allow their cats to roam free and everyday, one would steal a gorgeous fish (the kind with lovely fins and tails) everyday. My in-laws were very proud of this and thought it was great fun (even made a video and everything). Certainly no one ever went to the neighbour's to apologise/refund the poor man for his beautiful fish. Not to my surprise, a few months later, poor cat staggers up the porch and dies (probably poisoned). Of course, this shows the neighbour is also a sicko but because the cat owners did not take responsibility, the poor cat paid for it with her life. I hate stories like that but can see why they happen.
> 
> Ah well. I guess my only escape from cats spraying over my herbs or peeing on my stuff or catching my fish/chickens/whatever is winning the lottery haha. I'll buy a big house and cat proof it- perfect for my cats who would love to hang out in the garden and to ensure strange cats don't enter


That is sad. The cat was being a cat, your in-laws were not being responsible. The thing is, a lot of people would be more accomodating if the cat owner went round and asked to be informed if their pet was causing any trouble, they would see the goodwill and probably overlook a few poos but what is most annoying is the "I like my at to roam, it´s a cat, so don´t complain about the garden, your fish or the simple fact that you dont want him in your property" .Of course it´s a cat and it loves the great outdoors but we live in a society and your freedom should not disturb that of others. So while for me the first reason is the cat´s safety and then that I dont want my desicions to affect others, I feel all animals that have owners, that are registered to someone´s name should have those people step up for them. If you allow your cats to roam and those around you are fine with it, it´s a safe area and you have no complaints, then kudos. But if it´s not the case then don´t be selfish, be creative and find solutions.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Twiggs said:


> Sorry if you took it as a criticism, was not intended as such.


Let's just say it sounded a bit pedantic, like you said, so I got a little sarcastic in return.
And in fact, I should have known, as The Master decimated the world population in an episode of Dr Who


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

pipje said:


> Yes, but that word is now commonly used to mean kill a large part of the population. It's always funny when people say these things because I always wonder why they don't start with themselves (and no, I don't mean it personally)?


Well, in a way I have, as I do not have any children.
So I am not contributing to the next generation of humans.

If a reasonably big part of the population would do the same, and the ones who do have children have no more than one or two, numbers WOULD drop, especially as people in most western countries are waiting quite long before having their first child, so the generations are now far wider apart than, say, 50 or 100 years ago.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Jiskefet said:


> But then, cats are not indiginous animals in Australia. The entire ecosystem has been disrupted by the animals the colonists brought with them, so it is only logical that they will do anything to try and reverse that trend.
> 
> Over here, most indiginous predators have disappeared, not because of the introduction of alien animals, but by the human race using up all the natural woodlands for domestication and agriculture and killing off most predators that were opportunistic enough to adapt to the presence of ever more humans, because 'they posed a threat'.


Bit late now to try and reverse that effect? The cats have been released in Australia too long


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

I had no idea of that (semi-obsolete? original?) definition of the word. That's really interesting to know. I like that. :thumbsup:

Bing is saying:

dec·i·mate [ déssə màyt ]

1. destroy large proportion of something: to kill off or remove a large proportion of a group of people, animals, or things
2. almost destroy something: to inflict so much damage on something that it is seriously reduced in effectiveness
3. kill one person in 10: to kill one out of every ten people in a group, especially in a body of mutinous soldiers

Cool to know. I'm going to try to find a way to work that into a conversation on Monday. :biggrin:


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## Twiggs (Jul 9, 2012)

Decimate is from the Latin. I think it was Crassus who decimated his army so they would be more scared of him than the enemy!

I would like to add that this particular piece of knowledge comes courtsey of Horrible Histories.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> That is sad. The cat was being a cat, your in-laws were not being responsible. The thing is, a lot of people would be more accomodating if the cat owner went round and asked to be informed if their pet was causing any trouble, they would see the goodwill and probably overlook a few poos but what is most annoying is the "I like my at to roam, it´s a cat, so don´t complain about the garden, your fish or the simple fact that you dont want him in your property" .Of course it´s a cat and it loves the great outdoors but we live in a society and your freedom should not disturb that of others. So while for me the first reason is the cat´s safety and then that I dont want my desicions to affect others, I feel all animals that have owners, that are registered to someone´s name should have those people step up for them. If you allow your cats to roam and those around you are fine with it, it´s a safe area and you have no complaints, then kudos. But if it´s not the case then don´t be selfish, be creative and find solutions.


 I agree with this. The first thing I did was to tell my neighbours and people whose gardens I know he goes in that the cat was out and if he caused any issues they were to tell me.I am lucky, nobody round here seems to mind cats. My cat is sitting on next doors patio now while they have a coffee and read the papers. He isn't doing any harm and I swear that when my back is turned they are giving him snacks! I do encourage my cat to use the litter and tray and trench in our garden. I also don't mind if the neighbours squirt him with water if they want to discourage him. Personally even when I haven't had a cat I have always been happy to see a cat wonder down the fence to say hello. I love my garden but I accept that animals go the toilet. Same as I accept birds crap on my car. I am far more worried about the mess humans make, fly tipping etc..


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Marycat said:


> I agree with this. The first thing I did was to tell my neighbours and people whose gardens I know he goes in that the cat was out and if he caused any issues they were to tell me.I am lucky, nobody round here seems to mind cats. My cat is sitting on next doors patio now while they have a coffee and read the papers. He isn't doing any harm and I swear that when my back is turned they are giving him snacks! I do encourage my cat to use the litter and tray and trench in our garden. I also don't mind if the neighbours squirt him with water if they want to discourage him. Personally even when I haven't had a cat I have always been happy to see a cat wonder down the fence to say hello. I love my garden but I accept that animals go the toilet. Same as I accept birds crap on my car. I am far more worried about the mess humans make, fly tipping etc..


Well then, you have taken necessary precautions. My issues is with humans that coudn´t care less and give the responsible pet owners a bad name. Yes humans are distructive and they have taken the planet to the point it is but as we are talking about cats, I have said my bit.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Jiskefet said:


> Well, in a way I have, as I do not have any children.
> So I am not contributing to the next generation of humans.
> 
> If a reasonably big part of the population would do the same, and the ones who do have children have no more than one or two, numbers WOULD drop, especially as people in most western countries are waiting quite long before having their first child, so the generations are now far wider apart than, say, 50 or 100 years ago.


Yes, this is different but I believe this is probably of the word 'decimate'. To me, the word 'decimate' is much more violent than birth control. It indicates destroying certain groups of people, wars, putting them down etc. rather than birth control. 

I don't have children either (but am young so I assume I'll have one or two in the future). It's always funny because as you know, in China, there was a one-child policy for sometime and many westerners were very much against it (as it is a human right to procreate etc.). One can never be right, can they. However, probably best if we stop this since this is a cat forum, not a human one!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

pipje said:


> Yes, this is different but I believe this is probably of the word 'decimate'. To me, the word 'decimate' is much more violent than birth control. It indicates destroying certain groups of people, wars, putting them down etc. rather than birth control.
> 
> I don't have children either (but am young so I assume I'll have one or two in the future). It's always funny because as you know, in China, there was a one-child policy for sometime and many westerners were very much against it (as it is a human right to procreate etc.). One can never be right, can they. However, probably best if we stop this since this is a cat forum, not a human one!


But then I didn't say WE should actively kill off people...
We have just become far too clever for our own good.
In the past, nature could - to some extent - take care of our urge to expand....

The plague, smallpox, tetanus, typhoid, poliomyelitis, cancer, AIDS....
or a flood or a harsh winter.....

But we keep outsmarting nature and delving our own grave as a species.
Not only are our numbers way off the scale, but we have eliminated evolution's survival of the fittest in managing to keep alive all the physical misfits nature would discard.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

If I were a cat owner then the sheer number of dead cats on roadsides I see would be enough incentive for me to prevent them roaming. 
Why risk the life of a beloved pet? Makes absolutely no sense to me. 
That's my personal opinion on the matter.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> Well then, you have taken necessary precautions. My issues is with humans that coudn´t care less and give the responsible pet owners a bad name. Yes humans are distructive and they have taken the planet to the point it is but as we are talking about cats, I have said my bit.


I know this is about cats, but the fact that we have massively overpopulated the world with _*our*_ species is the very reason why _*we*_ feel the need *to restrict other species* in the choice and size of *their* territory


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

It could be argued that if there was no us, there would also be a heck lot less cats and dogs It's like if we eat a whole less meat, there would be less cows too.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goldstar said:


> If I were a cat owner then the sheer number of dead cats on roadsides I see would be enough incentive for me to prevent them roaming.
> Why risk the life of a beloved pet? Makes absolutely no sense to me.
> That's my personal opinion on the matter.


This is how I feel aswell


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

There are dangers out there for cats, as there are for teenagers, and old folks, and all of us. It's certainly safer to stay indoors all the time but the quality of life issue is very important. Some people suffer if they can't get out of doors much, and some cats do too. 

Those of us who see a need in our cats to be allowed outside have to accept the risks (and the responsibilities). As we do when we let our teenage kids go out at night, ride bikes, take up base jumping, and all the usual shenanigans.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

CoCoTrio said:


> There are dangers out there for cats, as there are for teenagers, and old folks, and all of us. It's certainly safer to stay indoors all the time but the quality of life issue is very important. Some people suffer if they can't get out of doors much, and some cats do too.
> 
> Those of us who see a need in our cats to be allowed outside have to accept the risks (and the responsibilities). As we do when we let our teenage kids go out at night, ride bikes, take up base jumping, and all the usual shenanigans.


Teenagers & 'old folk' tend to understand that roads etc are a hazard & can make informed decisions. A better comparison would be very young children. Like cats they don't see danger either, so imo, its our responsibility to protect them both from potential hazards.

.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Our cat is pretty savvy, he's been outside his whole life as far as we know. I think he can take care of himself. He's got more street smarts than my kids for sure. 

But it's about the needs of the cat. There are risks, but for some cats the rewards in quality-of-life terms will outweigh them.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

CoCoTrio said:


> Our cat is pretty savvy, he's been outside his whole life as far as we know. I think he can take care of himself. He's got more street smarts than my kids for sure.
> 
> But it's about the needs of the cat. There are risks, but for some cats the rewards in quality-of-life terms will outweigh the risks.


Imo Its an owners responsibility to keep their domestic species under control...what ever species that may be.

My Siberians are never allowed to run free unless its securely fenced, but I do all I can to ensure they still live happy fulfilled lives without ever taking any chances with their safety, they are just far too precious to me to risk. They, like cats, are also very efficient predators, again I do all I possibly can to minimise their chances of killing wildlife. They are also notorious for killing cats! I have a dread of a cat coming into my back garden, I try to deter them even though its not my responsibility, if one does get in, chances are it wont get out alive:frown2:. I really do wish some cat owners would take full responsibility for their pets, not just partial.

All that said, I don't think we're going to find any middle ground, so its perhaps better to agree to disagree

.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

That's ok. It's all about give-and-take and making allowances. 

For what it's worth I do feel that I take full responsibility for the cat. I'll be accountable for any damage he ever causes, or disturbance, and make restitution the best I can, just as I would do for my kids if they caused any hassle. 

What I won't do is stop him from going out, as I believe he would suffer badly from confinement. I'm glad that our neighbours seem to be completely accepting of his patrols around their houses, as we are of the other cats who visit ours. 

I mean the neighbour's dog barks, one guy tunes his motorbike on Sundays, the folk over the back have loud parties in their garden... we all encroach on one another to a certain extent. The important thing is to rub along. 

I appreciate anyone who can accept that confining our cat would involve some suffering or unhappiness for him, and make a few allowances for that.

Thank you and a big kiss to all those nice people! :thumbup1:


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

I didn't think this thread would cause such a debate, it was just a question that passed my mind, I feel bad for putting it up now! 



Marycat said:


> I tell you something Laurac I would be tempted to let him have a quick death that spend his life like a stuffed toy. Its different with kittens and some fancy breeds but you cannot treat an ex stray in the same way, they suffer immensely. The RSPCA understands this as do every animal shelter I have come across. The RSPCA in fact advised me not to cat proof. I wish I had listened.


Can you please look at your posts ,you seem to do this on all the threads and get them closed down, 

The only reason you are so anti indoor cat is that you have a EX STRAY, a stray cat that has been allowed to roam and probably mate, to keep him in was going to always be a serious on going commitment. It CAN be done, but it isn't right for all ex strays that are USED to roaming.

However I think if you had a young kitten, of ANY breed moggie/fancy (although I dont lke theat term at all  ) I think your views would be the total opposite when you see a breed that has been bred to be a companion that doesn't actually want to go outside.

I have rescue moggies, I enclosed my garden, the only one used to going out was a young mum who was repeatedly mated, she is more than happy to never venture outside again, even with the door open she stays put, and we have the properly built system, none of them have ever tried to get over it.

It isn't a cage  As for the rspca / animal shelter 'understanding' that every cat should go outside, well, they are taking away hundreds of potential loving homes from kittens who have never stepped outside, and that sends people to byb who don't ask questions about your garden, as they couldn't give a toss.

Anyway I am digressing now.



bordie said:


> cats are classed as vermin they are free to roam


I just googled this some say they aren't some say they are classed as pets, I think it is awful if they are classed as 'vermin' 

r.e. do cats in your garden really annoy people that much? I grew up In a area where cats were in our garden all the time, fair enough we weren't gardening people, and didn't really care if they poo-ed in the flower bed, I still don't really care now, is it such a big problem? Or is it a health thing? Or I guess digging up flowers to poo?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I do think this was always going to be a contentious thread as the indoor/outdoor debate always is but some posters come across as being very aggressive in their attitudes and that is never the way to win anyone over to their way of thinking.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I can see both sides, having had free roaming cats all my life, but also having an indoor-only Siamese when I was little.

My older cats currently go out during the day. This will change when I've saved up a couple of grand, as my OH is going to build me a massive cat run along the length of our house so that our babies can enjoy the outdoors without endangering themselves or the local wildlife 

My 2 youngsters are indoor-only, the moggy has no desire whatsosever to go outside, the Siamese, on the other hand, will escape if she got the chance, so we compromise by taking her out on a *SHOCK HORROR* lead & harness :thumbup1:

Bribery by Dreamies









Getting the hang of it


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## Xanthia (Jul 6, 2013)

As Catlove says, it's important that people realise the big differences between different cats, especially different breeds. There is a vast world of difference between keeping a Persian cat in a small flat and keeping an ex-stray or a Bengal perhaps, confined in the same flat! Breeds like Persians and british shorthairs are bred to be very docile and relaxed, they sleep alot and would be far too trusting of strangers to go out unsupervised. Other breeds like Bengals are very lively so they need alot more space and if I had one I would want it to have a large secure outdoor space. Still doesn't mean it should be able to go wherever it likes though!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Marycat said:


> So why is it that there is far bigger incidence of cat behavioural problems in the USA?
> Thats not just my opinion its fact.
> Look at the studies you are so fond of on the internet.


What studies claim there are "more problem behaviors among pet-cats in the USA",
& compared to what popn of pet-cats?

Are U claiming there are studies with *data* to support the allegations that UK-pet cats are less likely 
to exhibit problem-bahaviors than USA-pet cats?

If so, please produce links to such studies, as i've never seen one, nor heard of any.


Marycat said:


> Why is declawing not outlawed in the US yet?


the AVMA does not "like" declawing, & many USA vets will not perform it, *unless* there is a health risk
to a resident in the home, who is on Coumadin, has HIV / AIDS, or other autoimmune dysfunctions, 
& who is much more at risk of bleeding, severe infection, or death, than an uncompromised healthy human.

AVMA position paper on declaw surgery - 
https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/030415c.aspx

There are also local ordinances in cities, towns, counties, etc, which specifically BAN declaw.
Los Angeles is probably among the best-known large cites which bans declaw surgeries, 
unless the owner's physician provides cause - I-E, medical grounds, as above.

As for this pleasantry:


Marycat said:


> Is it because in countries where we are *a bit more pet friendly* we don't need
> to take such *drastic action* to get our pets to conform to our lifestyle?
> 
> Perhaps we are *a bit more enlightened* over here
> ...


This is sheer, unbridled mud-slinging, & U are a rabble-rousing and very rude person.
One more on my Ignore list. :thumbup1: Enjoy the day, 
- terry
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

pipje said:


> I agree with this-
> provided owners of roaming cats *accept the additional risk of their cats being hurt*
> and also will *assume the responsibility, if their cats damage something*.


For just one simple example, cats hit by cars are often not treated by owners, who decline 
to spend the money to repair the injuries. I helped to pay half the cost of a cat's badly shattered leg, 
when i was in college - he was a sweet, affectionate, neutered brown tabby, with a white bib & brick 
nose - very handsome; he'd been found by a good Samaritan along the road, unable to walk.

The vet placed an ad in the newspaper, & i saw it; his owners did not come forward, & i took a buddy
who was looking to adopt, to meet him. The 2 local vets charged us COST only for 6-hrs of painstaking
complex surgery, on a hind leg that was in over 20 pieces, the largest an inch-plus.

HE WORE AN EXTERNAL FIXATOR for over a month, which required daily care,
& my fellow "helper", the man who was adopting him, couldn't be bothered to clean the wounds
where the fixator emerged thru the skin; it "grossed him out", so i went by his apt daily, to do it.

Then the irresponsible eejit decided to let him out on the porch-roof from his 2nd floor apt, 3 days 
after the fixator was removed - & he disappeared, never to be seen again. Do i hold John responsible?
DAMN RIGHT, I DO. :thumbdown:

*re property damage -*
How does the homeowner / gardener / neighbor PROVE whose cat did what?

We can take DNA-samples from stools, which ID the culprit who shat there, but we can't "prove" which cat 
did what without 24 / 7 video CC-TV on our properties, & even then, how would U tell one tuxedo cat 
or brown tabby from another, to complain to the owner?

How would U FIND the owner? Cats don't wear sandwich-boards listing the owner's contact info.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CoCoTrio said:


> Your meaning was that 'roaming over the neighbourhood' is optional _for the owners_.


No, it was not. 
And i am very sure that U are well-aware of my meaning, which was precisely 
that former street-strays can be very happy, as indoor-only cats.

I've done this successfully - changing the cat's habits from outside to inside - 
& so have many other Forum-members, not merely "incarcerating" the cats.

Contempt is obviously something U've practiced. Have some humble-pi, on me. :biggrin:


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I think - at some point - cats will be made to be indoor only (or contained) like in Aus and being tried to be enforced in NZ. If your cat there hunts and kills an endangered species then you are in big doo doo. 

DO I think this is right? I do actually. If we didn't interfere there would be a lot less cats, average life expectancy for a feral is very low, most kittens don't make it to adulthood etc so the effect on wildlife would be less. But I think for the sake of a lot of the songbirds, protected newts, moles, voles, shrews, etc the odds are stacked against them. Maybe it won't be in my lifeline but I think eventually, all rescues will neuter before they rehome, it will be illegal to own an unneutered cat unless a registered cattery. ANd no cats will be allowed to free roam - much like dogs. Those cats allowed to breed will do so for personality etc, for being docile and able to cope with being kept indoors and having access to the outside via runs. 

People will be responsible for their pets and their hunting or pooing etc. In order to protect other wildlife, pets need to be regulated.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Spids reasons for a possible control on cats "freedom to roam" are why I have always had indoor cats.
I value their life,it is way too dangerous,in general, to allow them to wander where they will.
I also feel a responsibility towards other people who may not want my cats on their property and I also could not accept the "kill for fun"side of a free roaming cat,
I do my bit to help wildlife in my garden,why would I want to see it destroyed by my own or anyone elses cat.
Attitudes towards cat ownership is slowly changing and I do hope to see changes sooner rather than later.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

You must be lots younger than me Buffie!


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

spid said:


> *You must be lots younger than me Buffie*!


Lol ,not very likely :nonod: I'm just hopeful


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with Buffie and Spid on this one. I think there will be legislation/licenced breeders eventually if only because there is no money anywhere to cope with the flood of feral kittens, and we would rather have legislation than wholesale shooting and poisoning. 

It seems to have been a lively forum this weekend and I have only been able to read not post until now. One of the things I don't get is why what works for one cat is deemed to be the answer for all cats? I live on chilli and some serious spicing, my sister doesn't like it - if you apply what makes me happy to my sister, she won't enjoy her food. Why is that so difficult to understand?


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> I can see both sides, having had free roaming cats all my life, but also having an indoor-only Siamese when I was little.
> 
> My older cats currently go out during the day. This will change when I've saved up a couple of grand, as my OH is going to build me a massive cat run along the length of our house so that our babies can enjoy the outdoors without endangering themselves or the local wildlife
> 
> ...


he is gorgeous, bit off topic I love your rotti thread in your signature 



Xanthia said:


> As Catlove says, it's important that people realise the big differences between different cats, especially different breeds. There is a vast world of difference between keeping a Persian cat in a small flat and keeping an ex-stray or a Bengal perhaps, confined in the same flat! Breeds like Persians and british shorthairs are bred to be very docile and relaxed, they sleep alot and would be far too trusting of strangers to go out unsupervised. Other breeds like Bengals are very lively so they need alot more space and if I had one I would want it to have a large secure outdoor space. Still doesn't mean it should be able to go wherever it likes though!


I think that most Bengal breeders sell them as indoor only due to their nature, but a enclosed garden would be great! :thumbup1:



spid said:


> I think - at some point - cats will be made to be indoor only (or contained) like in Aus and being tried to be enforced in NZ. If your cat there hunts and kills an endangered species then you are in big doo doo.
> 
> DO I think this is right? I do actually. If we didn't interfere there would be a lot less cats, average life expectancy for a feral is very low, most kittens don't make it to adulthood etc so the effect on wildlife would be less. But I think for the sake of a lot of the songbirds, protected newts, moles, voles, shrews, etc the odds are stacked against them. Maybe it won't be in my lifeline but I think eventually, *all rescues will neuter before they rehome, it will be illegal to own an unneutered cat* unless a registered cattery. ANd no cats will be allowed to free roam - much like dogs. Those cats allowed to breed will do so for personality etc, for being docile and able to cope with being kept indoors and having access to the outside via runs.
> 
> People will be responsible for their pets and their hunting or pooing etc. In order to protect other wildlife, pets need to be regulated.


Ideal world! I wish that was now!!!


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Ok i get it! I was being harsh and sarcastic and that is not nice. I am a bit hot headed at times and quick to go on the defensive. I hope you accept my apologies..again!!Some cats are happy inside. I will stop being argumentative I promise, but can we at least agree that a blanket 'all cats must be confined' whether this a house, a run or a garden is equally as controversial for some cat owners. Hence my attitude, not an excuse I know. I feel judged too.:sad. I am trying my best for my cat as I do concede you are all too. Its so difficult when you have a cat that just won't accept being confined and you have to let go. Maybe I am a bit teeny weeny jealous that some people know where there lovely cats always are. Mine as gone over the fence again!! He is a wilful bugger of a cat!


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Contempt is obviously something U've practiced.


Hey Terry, what was that you wrote about mud-slinging?

Pots and kettles, chum.

:biggrin:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

This thread will be closed if these personal attacks continue.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

lymorelynn said:


> This thread will be closed if these personal attacks continue.


 I promise to behave. No more provocation from me. I think the whole outdoor/indoor thing is a bit sensitive for both sides. Its almost like someone is telling you how to bring your kids up.Its a personal choice. I see that now and therefore will take some deep breaths and wait ten mins before submitting my replies.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Marycat said:


> Ok i get it! I was being harsh and sarcastic and that is not nice. I am a bit hot headed at times and quick to go on the defensive. I hope you accept my apologies..again!!Some cats are happy inside. I will stop being argumentative I promise, but can we at least agree that a blanket 'all cats must be confined' whether this a house, a run or a garden is equally as controversial for some cat owners. Hence my attitude, not an excuse I know. I feel judged too.:sad. I am trying my best for my cat as I do concede you are all too. Its so difficult when you have a cat that just won't accept being confined and you have to let go. Maybe I am a bit teeny weeny jealous that some people know where there lovely cats always are. Mine as gone over the fence again!! He is a wilful bugger of a cat!


I haven't actually seen anyone telling you that all cats must be confined, rather just justifying why some are, and I've seen many, many tell you that you are right, that it comes down to the individual cat. No-one has told you you were wrong to let your cat out - not that I've seen. You've actually had an awful lot of un-judgemental support from an awful lot of people until you start getting 'hot headed'. Of course people are going to defend themselves them then.

You may feel that runs and enclosed gardens are controversial but others don't. And that is both yours and their right. You keep asking for discussion but when you don't like what is written become incredibly defensive and make sweeping accusations etc. It's silly really.

I think you might wish your boy would stay in the garden and so are over compensating with the worry you have, despite him being happier, by being much more vehement in your replies to those that choose to keep their cats in. Just displacing your angst about your boy in here. It is understandable that you worry about your boy, despite the fact that you have done the very best by him. Of course you are going to worry, and maybe you are a little jealous and peeved with those owners whose cats just aren't interested in the outside.

However, try not to vent your angst at people, vent it on here by all means, and we shall support you the best we can, but not AT forum members. Being aggressive in nature will only make others put you on ignore and then you get nowhere.

For a newbie you are very brazen in attitude - that can be a good thing but also, until you know people here is a very easy way to put people's backs up. Maybe just try to chill a little more and don't take everything as a personal attack.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

spid said:


> I haven't actually seen anyone telling you that all cats must be confined, rather just justifying why some are, and I've seen many, many tell you that you are right, that it comes down to the individual cat. No-one has told you you were wrong to let your cat out - not that I've seen. You've actually had an awful lot of un-judgemental support from an awful lot of people until you start getting 'hot headed'. Of course people are going to defend themselves them then.
> 
> You may feel that runs and enclosed gardens are controversial but others don't. And that is both yours and their right. You keep asking for discussion but when you don't like what is written become incredibly defensive and make sweeping accusations etc. It's silly really.
> 
> ...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

spid said:


> > Maybe it won't be in my lifeline but I think eventually, all rescues will neuter before they rehome,
> 
> 
> Spid - the Rescue where I volunteer spays or neuters every cat admitted that has not had the op, and always has done. I know the local RSPCA Cat Rescue does the same, as does the CP, and also the several small independent Cat Rescues in the area.
> ...


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> I can see both sides, having had free roaming cats all my life, but also having an indoor-only Siamese when I was little.
> 
> My older cats currently go out during the day. This will change when I've saved up a couple of grand, as my OH is going to build me a massive cat run along the length of our house so that our babies can enjoy the outdoors without endangering themselves or the local wildlife
> 
> ...


Gosh she's gorgeous!

Haven't see Phoenix in a while! :001_wub: :001_wub:


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

buffie said:


> Spids reasons for a possible control on cats "freedom to roam" are why I have always had indoor cats.
> I value their life,it is way too dangerous,in general, to allow them to wander where they will.
> I also feel a responsibility towards other people who may not want my cats on their property and I also could not accept the "kill for fun"side of a free roaming cat,
> I do my bit to help wildlife in my garden,why would I want to see it destroyed by my own or anyone elses cat.
> Attitudes towards cat ownership is slowly changing and I do hope to see changes sooner rather than later.


Ameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen!!!!!


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

buffie said:


> Spids reasons for a possible control on cats "freedom to roam" are why I have always had indoor cats.
> I value their life,it is way too dangerous,in general, to allow them to wander where they will.
> I also feel a responsibility towards other people who may not want my cats on their property and I also could not accept the "kill for fun"side of a free roaming cat,
> I do my bit to help wildlife in my garden,why would I want to see it destroyed by my own or anyone elses cat.
> Attitudes towards cat ownership is slowly changing and I do hope to see changes sooner rather than later.


Spid this is what I mean by a all cats must be in 'blanket' one size fits all. What would Buffie do with my cat I wonder? Make him stay in whatever his state of mind? Its not all one one side. I accept I was being provocative but to me this is just as controversial.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Marycat said:


> Spid this is what I mean by a all cats must be in 'blanket' one size fits all. What would Buffie do with my cat I wonder? Make him stay in whatever his state of mind? Its not all one one side. I accept I was being provocative but to me this is just as controversial.


MC since I was agreeing with spid's post I assume this question is being asked to us both.
I had a semi - feral who lived in a shed in the garden.It took a very long time to gain his trust .He did eventually move in to the house and he never wandered after that,He went out the back door came round to the front of the house and came back in again,that was his "outdoor" time his choice and I think he was just so pleased to have a home he didn't want to lose it.
Also a stray found in the stable yard with a broken leg,she came home with us and never went over the door again ,she settled perfectly happily.

I accept that a change wont/cant happen overnight but I would like to see a time when cats are restricted in their so called "freedom to roam"


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

buffie said:


> Spids reasons for a possible control on cats "freedom to roam" are why I have always had indoor cats.
> I value their life,it is way too dangerous,in general, to allow them to wander where they will.
> I also feel a responsibility towards other people who may not want my cats on their property and I also could not accept the "kill for fun"side of a free roaming cat,
> I do my bit to help wildlife in my garden,why would I want to see it destroyed by my own or anyone elses cat.
> Attitudes towards cat ownership is slowly changing and I do hope to see changes sooner rather than later.


Ameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen!!!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Very, very few shelters in the USA do *not* S / N before placing any pet -

the few exceptions are small, rural shelters which simply lack the funds to do so,
altho they realize that this means killing more animals, especially unwanted juvies - 
pups & kittens in such small shelters may have little chance of being adopted.

Most municipal shelters DO desex every dog, cat, pup, kit, bunny, & ferret - 
They don't usually desex pocket-pets, such as rats or hamsters, tho i wish they would.
We've had quite a few cases of rodent-hoarding, where rats, gerbils, etc, simply bred at will,
& the owners were overwhelmed by sheer numbers. By the time a rescue operation begins, 
dozens or hundreds of animals flood the adoption system.

All private shelters that i know of, large or small, desex all their animals before releasing them.

I don't know of ANY rescue-organization that's a registered 501-c3, that *fails* to S/N every pet 
before releasing them to adopters. Some unregistered ones only have the adopter sign a contract, 
which is almost impossible to enforce, if the adopter moves out of the area, & very *expensive*
to bring to court, if the adopter stays local & defies their promise to desex. :nonod:

Most of the municipal shelters that can't afford desex are in the deep South, or Appalachia, 
rural areas of small towns & villages, the Southwest [TX, NM, Ok, Ariz], & mountain areas with 
small, scattered popns, or ranching / farming country. Many such shelters pair up with others 
outside their own area, like GA or Louisiana pairing with New England shelters, to ship the juvies 
out of state, to be adopted where pups & kittens are scarce, due to the high S/N ratio in pets.

I think it's fantastic that rural shelters are reducing their euth-numbers, while urban shelters place
the surplus pups & kittens in good, screened homes; it's a win / win. :thumbup:

HSUS & several other orgs fund transport services for such surplus pets, all over the country.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I have 4 house cats that never go outdoors. I got all 4 of them as adults so not going outside and roaming has never been a possibility.

They look outside and if the door is open, they will go and stand on the grass and then come back in. They will follow me round the garden but come in when I do.

I don't have any neighbours close by so they wouldn't annoy anybody or do any damage to property if they were outdoors. All 4 are siamese/oriental and I think hunting for these 4 would be out of the question anyway.

I don't let them out because we do have foxes and badgers here and I also live at the side of an A road that gets busy during tourist season.

I also have several outside cats who are not really feral but have never lived in the house. These cats keep the vermin down and I am grateful to them for it and they do a 1st class job. They are rewarded with ad lib James Wellbeloved cat food and have plenty shelter in various outbuildings.

Horses for courses. My cats do the best job of keeping rats and mice out of my house, stables feed bins.etc.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

buffie said:


> MC since I was agreeing with spid's post I assume this question is being asked to us both.
> I had a semi - feral who lived in a shed in the garden.It took a very long time to gain his trust .He did eventually move in to the house and he never wandered after that,He went out the back door came round to the front of the house and came back in again,that was his "outdoor" time his choice and I think he was just so pleased to have a home he didn't want to lose it.
> Also a stray found in the stable yard with a broken leg,she came home with us and never went over the door again ,she settled perfectly happily.
> 
> I accept that a change wont/cant happen overnight but I would like to see a time when cats are restricted in their so called "freedom to roam"


well I guess you had better come train my Blackie then! He seriously nearly took his claws off trying to get though the fence. I have never seen a cat so distressed. I absolutely bawled my eyes out. I think it might be because our house backs onto the field and without completely closing the view he can always see his old hunting ground. I just couldn't do it to him. I knew eventually I would 'win' but at the cost of having to break his spirit. He also started to attack my disabled 20 yr old cat, she is confined to the garden by choice (hers and mine). Please tell me what you would have done in this situation because I am at a loss. Please don't tell me to rehome him, as you know all the rescues are full and he ain't the prettiest lad ( although in my eyes he is gorgeous) Please tell me what I should do with this cat. I respect your view that you believe all cats should be restricted in their freedom to roam but please, please remember that if i said ALL cats without exception have the right to freedom I would be accused of being controversial and rightly so.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> I have 4 house cats that never go outdoors. I got all 4 of them as adults so not going outside and roaming has never been a possibility.
> 
> They look outside and if the door is open, they will go and stand on the grass and then come back in. They will follow me round the garden but come in when I do.
> 
> ...


 Good on you for taking care of the outside cats. So many people don't care. Really nice to read.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Marycat said:


> Spid this is what I mean by a all cats must be in 'blanket' one size fits all. What would Buffie do with my cat I wonder? Make him stay in whatever his state of mind? Its not all one one side. I accept I was being provocative but to me this is just as controversial.


NO this isn't a 'one size fits all' She hasn't said is that everyone should do the same no matter what. What she has agreed with is my point that eventually all cats may be forced to be kept secure for various reasons. YOu are reading far to much into what she says.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Marycat said:


> well I guess you had better come train my Blackie then! He seriously nearly took his claws off trying to get though the fence. I have never seen a cat so distressed. I absolutely bawled my eyes out. I think it might be because our house backs onto the field and without completely closing the view he can always see his old hunting ground. I just couldn't do it to him. I knew eventually I would 'win' but at the cost of having to break his spirit. He also started to attack my disabled 20 yr old cat, she is confined to the garden by choice (hers and mine). Please tell me what you would have done in this situation because I am at a loss. Please don't tell me to rehome him, as you know all the rescues are full and he ain't the prettiest lad ( although in my eyes he is gorgeous) Please tell me what I should do with this cat. I respect your view that you believe all cats should be restricted in their freedom to roam but please, please remember that if i said ALL cats without exception have the right to freedom I would be accused of being controversial and rightly so.


Again she hasn't actually stated ALL CATS MUST BE CONFINED (as you keep insisting on calling it) she says what she would do. SHe doesn't tell you to do anything different. YOu want a discussion, but everytime someone says anything positive about keeping cats in, you take it as a personal attack. SHe gave illustrations where it did work, she did not say 'ad you are a bad person you didn't try hard enough' - which is clearly what you are reading into her posts.

Have a discussion by all means but try to listen to other peoples vies without feeling persecuted, or thinking that they aree having a go. It's like unless someone absolutely agrees with you you see it as a personal attack, not discussion.

As my beloved Minchin says - "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

It seems you don't like what they say and think they shouldn't say it. And turn it around as an attack. Again chill.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

chillminx said:


> spid said:
> 
> 
> > Spid - the Rescue where I volunteer spays or neuters every cat admitted that has not had the op, and always has done. I know the local RSPCA Cat Rescue does the same, as does the CP, and also the several small independent Cat Rescues in the area.
> ...


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

spid said:


> NO this isn't a 'one size fits all' She hasn't said is that everyone should do the same no matter what. What she has agreed with is my point that eventually all cats may be forced to be kept secure for various reasons. YOu are reading far to much into what she says.


OK maybe I am taking it a bit personally! But I do think its fair given my current experience to point out that containing cats that have previously been allowed to roam is not so easy. Maybe kittens born after a certain date should be registered or something and you could start trying to contain them?? I have to say I personally wouldn't really like this. I love to see a cat out and about and would be sad to see them confined.I love to see a cat walking up and down a fence nosing around but everyone is different!


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Marycat said:


> well I guess you had better come train my Blackie then! He seriously nearly took his claws off trying to get though the fence. I have never seen a cat so distressed. I absolutely bawled my eyes out. I think it might be because our house backs onto the field and without completely closing the view he can always see his old hunting ground. I just couldn't do it to him. I knew eventually I would 'win' but at the cost of having to break his spirit. He also started to attack my disabled 20 yr old cat, she is confined to the garden by choice (hers and mine). Please tell me what you would have done in this situation because I am at a loss. Please don't tell me to rehome him, as you know all the rescues are full and he ain't the prettiest lad ( although in my eyes he is gorgeous) Please tell me what I should do with this cat. *I respect your view that you believe all cats should be restricted in their freedom to roam but please, please remember that if i said ALL cats without exception have the right to freedom I would be accused of being controversial and rightly so*.


MC This is getting silly,When I said I think all cats should be restricted,obviously it cant happen overnight,just the same as the ban on tail docking couldn't magically spirit away all the poor buggers with stumps where their tail should be.
It would be a gradual process ,I have never said that your cat should be restricted , you have done what you thought was best for him.
Just to clarify my point... I would like to see a day where cats were no longer allowed to "free roam" both for their safety and that of the wildlife they may destroy.
I object to picking up cat sh*t in my garden so I hate to think how non cat people feel faced with cat sh*t in their flowerbeds.


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

Marycat said:


> well I guess you had better come train my Blackie then! He seriously nearly took his claws off trying to get though the fence. I have never seen a cat so distressed. I absolutely bawled my eyes out. I think it might be because our house backs onto the field and without completely closing the view he can always see his old hunting ground. I just couldn't do it to him. I knew eventually I would 'win' but at the cost of having to break his spirit. He also started to attack my disabled 20 yr old cat, she is confined to the garden by choice (hers and mine). Please tell me what you would have done in this situation because I am at a loss.
> 
> Please don't tell me to rehome him, as you know all the rescues are full and he ain't the prettiest lad ( although in my eyes he is gorgeous) Please tell me what I should do with this cat. I respect your view that you believe all cats should be restricted in their freedom to roam but please, please remember that if i said ALL cats without exception have the right to freedom I would be accused of being controversial and rightly so.


 Can you please stop this now, you will get yet another thread closed, this thread is going the same way as your others and off topic to your own needs, stop making every post that people post about you and your cat please.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Marycat said:


> OK maybe I am taking it a bit personally! But I do think its fair given my current experience to point out that containing cats that have previously been allowed to roam is not so easy. Maybe kittens born after a certain date should be registered or something and you could start trying to contain them?? I have to say I personally wouldn't really like this. I love to see a cat out and about and would be sad to see them confined.I love to see a cat walking up and down a fence nosing around but everyone is different!


And you have said this many many times. ANd we have agreed many many times - that for you this is a good choice now.

And personally I feel that eventually it won't be a sight you see that often. That the law will change and yo won't be able to allow cats to roam free. But obviously this will take time and cats will be restricted in their movements from birth and so won't mind at all.

Pedigree kittens already are registered and kept inside from birth to death in the main. Already happening.

I would love to see Wolves like they once used to roaming cos they are beautiful and wonderful but it ain't a good thing to happen :


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

spid said:


> Again she hasn't actually stated ALL CATS MUST BE CONFINED (as you keep insisting on calling it) she says what she would do. SHe doesn't tell you to do anything different. YOu want a discussion, but everytime someone says anything positive about keeping cats in, you take it as a personal attack. SHe gave illustrations where it did work, she did not say 'ad you are a bad person you didn't try hard enough' - which is clearly what you are reading into her posts.
> 
> Have a discussion by all means but try to listen to other peoples vies without feeling persecuted, or thinking that they aree having a go. It's like unless someone absolutely agrees with you you see it as a personal attack, not discussion.
> 
> ...


 Blimey- bit harsh! I am simply asking what Buffie would do with my cat?? I didn't say she said I was a bad person?? I also took 'I would like to see a time when cats are restricted to roam' as meaning all cats and if I had said I would like to see a time when all cats are allowed to roam I would be shot down. It does seem to be one way!


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

The aesthetic appeal of cats out and about is, for me, similar to that of birds, rabbits, foxes, deer. I would regret an urban environment devoid of cats. I understand some people dislike to see cats in public, but I'm not one of them.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Marycat said:


> OK maybe I am taking it a bit personally! But I do think its fair given my current experience to point out that containing cats that have previously been allowed to roam is not so easy. Maybe kittens born after a certain date should be registered or something and you could start trying to contain them?? I have to say I personally wouldn't really like this. I love to see a cat out and about and would be sad to see them confined.I love to see a cat walking up and down a fence nosing around but everyone is different!


Thats _not_ what you are pointing put though is it? If you are honest.

I havent read all of your posts, but all the ones I _have _read, you seem to be talking about cats 'being caged', cats being free spirits, and how unfair it is of _anyone_ to not let their cats free roam.

I also love to see a cat nosing around, and will greet any free roaming cat that approaches me. But, I hate seeing cats that have been left in the gutter after being hit by a car even more.

Good on you for letting your cat free roam, I'm really glad it works for you. I also understand why you let him free roam, as my mums cat is a free roamer too, and keeping him indoors after he was neutered was a nightmare. (She took him in after her neighbours emigrated and left him behind, hence the late neutering).

On the other hand none of mine free roam, and nor will they. I resent being told I am keeping them caged and restricting their lives by someone who _does_ let their cat free roam.

I understand and respect your decision for your cat. It would be nice to see _you_, at the very _least_, respecting others decisions, and refraining from attacking them.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

CoCoTrio said:


> The aesthetic appeal of cats out and about is, for me, similar to that of birds, rabbits, foxes, deer. I would regret an urban environment devoid of cats. I understand some people dislike to see cats in public, but I'm not one of them.


I don't mind seeing cats walking about in public (because they don't bother me) but my joy in seeing the ocassional charming cat on the sidewalk isn't worth it if it means cats continue to get hurt and die from cars etc.


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

Marycat said:


> OK maybe I am taking it a bit personally! But I do think its fair given my current experience to point out that containing cats that have previously been allowed to roam is not so easy. Maybe kittens born after a certain date should be registered or something and you could start trying to contain them?? I have to say I personally wouldn't really like this. I *love to see a cat out and about* and would be sad to see them confined.I love to see a cat walking up and down a fence nosing around but everyone is different!


Oh I am thinking more and more that you are a troll now, you are going to get my thread closed and it is a genuine thread on peoples views about dog/cat roaming freely, this thread is NOT ABOUT YOU OR YOUR CAT. 

Yes I love seeing them out and about to, the dead one I picked up from the road was really great to see. The one with a metal hip and broken leg from being hit by a boy racer, wow that was lovely to watch. The one that the kids shot at that lost a eye, really wonderful to watch, the ones that got poisoned with anti freeze were great to watch as they died.

The one where they get into huge fights and pass on feline aids to each other and scream and mate as no one neuters, a true sight to behold.
The ones that get shouted at and water thrown over them as people are trying to get them out of their garden, oh that was also lovely to watch. 

I know you have already said this about yourself, you seem intent on making every post about you, your cat is a ex stray, they are hard to keep in, it CAN be done, but it will be hard! If you couldn't keep your cat in, I don't think that anyone has a problem, it is You that has a problem with your own decision!! 

I for one and Really happy that my cats will live long happy lives indoors in a big old cage running round with toys and loads of hugs free of fighting outside cars and weirdo's who want to harm them. I am so mean! :thumbup1:


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

MCWillow said:


> Thats _not_ what you are pointing put though is it? If you are honest.
> 
> I havent read all of your posts, but all the ones I _have _read, you seem to be talking about cats 'being caged', cats being free spirits, and how unfair it is of _anyone_ to not let their cats free roam.
> 
> ...


probably a better way then I put it! :thumbup1:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Again, this has gone on for long enough and is getting nowhere now.


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