# :O Shocked at ear cropping comment.



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

On an american forum, we were discussing ear cropping.
I stated that I don't believe we have the right to change a dog for cosmetic reasons. Here are some responses...

"I'd put cropping a dog's ears along the line of piercing a child's ears. Most children don't get a choice in the matter. I know I didn't, and I still remember it. It hurt, yes, but now, I really don't care. I'm fine. Now, I know removing a part of the ear while a dog is under anesthesia and put on pain medication afterwards is different from jabbing a hole into a child's ear while holding them down when they're wide awake, assuming they'll be just fine without medication whatsoever, but I'd let other people decide on what seems worse."

"I'm fine with tail docking and ear cropping if done properly.
I'm really repeating what some other posters have said; My dog, my rules. It's bothers me people want to see this right to choose taken away. "

"I'm all for it when done correctly and by a vet. I prefer banding tails, instead of scissors though.

I'm from a place in Canada where cropping and docking are illegal, and owning a docked dog, I'll never understand it. My dog is fine expressing himself around other dogs, even with a stub.

And I think I should be allowed to choose what I do with my dog, he's mine, not anyone elses. "

"Who are you to say that I will view my dog as a "right" and not a privilege. I will love my dog unconditionally, and if I get his ears cropped i'll need to take care of them afterwards so he will just get even more attention from me by having his ears cropped. Not to mention the breed I want is very uncommon and i'll probably be paying a very hefty price, which I wouldn't do if I viewed the dog as property or a "right". -_-

Also I really dont think the dog cares. What happens when a dog is born blind? We do not pity them because to them the world has always been dark and to them that's just how it's supposed to be. The same goes for a dog that has been cropped/docked. They will not miss there floppy ears... "

"You said "We should have no right to disfigure an animal just because we like the look. I am shocked that people think we do have this right?"

As long as it's not cruelty, why can't I? Do I not pay the bills, provide everything for the dog and am 'superior' [can't think of a better, more humble word- bear with me] as a species to an animal? Say it's a prideful thing, but as a christian, we not only have the right to have a say over our animals but even the responsibility to be good stewards.

Look if we start saying I don't have the right to crop or dock my dog, then I don't have a right to have clothing from animal skin, eat meat, etc, hell, what's my right ot OWN a dog then? ...As long as we're not causing real suffering, I feel we're within our rights.

Honestly, fussing about tail docking and ear cropping just feels silly when we have so MANY more pressing things going on; real animal abuse and neglect for example."

I am so shocked that people think just because they pay for their dog, they have the right to CUT THEIR EARS OFF to suit a fashion


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

OMFG............... what a load of toss pots, beggas belief, I odn't agree with ear cropping I think it's down right bloody cruel and serves no real purpose bar cosmetic


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## shells (Jan 16, 2011)

i didnt know that people cut there dogs ears


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

shells said:


> i didnt know that people cut there dogs ears


Google some piccies of dobies or boxers or great danes from the USA - it's common over there. It's a barbaric practice that is not allowed in this country.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

As long as it's not cruelty, why can't I? Do I not pay the bills, provide everything for the dog and am 'superior' [can't think of a better, more humble word- bear with me] as a species to an animal? Say it's a prideful thing, but as a christian, we not only have the right to have a say over our animals but even the responsibility to be good stewards.

Im sorry you just cant reason with people who say things like the above, bloody crazy loon

I for one am extremely grateful that ear cropping in this country is illegal, as i am sure most people are.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Google some piccies of dobies or boxers or great danes from the USA - it's common over there. It's a barbaric practice that is not allowed in this country.


My ex bless his heart thought that those dogs just came in an 'up eared variety' as well as what we see normally
He just would not have it that people would do that to dogs! Oh how i wish that were true


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

babycham2002 said:


> As long as it's not cruelty, why can't I? Do I not pay the bills, provide everything for the dog and am 'superior' [can't think of a better, more humble word- bear with me] as a species to an animal? Say it's a prideful thing, but as a christian, we not only have the right to have a say over our animals but even the responsibility to be good stewards.
> 
> Im sorry you just cant reason with people who say things like the above, bloody crazy loon
> 
> I for one am extremely grateful that ear cropping in this country is illegal, as i am sure most people are.


I know. i just said I have no respect for people who clearly have no respect for their dogs. How anyone can feel it's their RIGHT to deform their dogs is beyond me and I am out of here.

i'm not going back there now, there was like me, and one other and the rest were Americans with cropped dogs, so it was a loosing battle.


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## shells (Jan 16, 2011)

that is just awful those poor things i truly dont understand some people


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## Pineapple (Sep 9, 2010)

Nutters. Truly very creepy.


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## s4simo (Mar 27, 2011)

OMG I didn't realise this even happened. Surely an animal is not yours to use and abuse just because it has the misfortune to live in your house! 
You have to seriously question the morals of people who knowingly mutilate their animals and the so-called 'professionals' that do it


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Yes indeed, it is very common over here, to the point where people think you are most bizarre if you don't do it.

Here are some discussions on the corgi forum I'm on

To dock or not to dock...that is my question... - MyCorgi.com

Pic of a 5 wk old undocked corgi - MyCorgi.com

I'm especially repulsed by the comments that "My doggie is so cute with his little bunny butt that I would never have one that didn't have its tail chopped off" or "it's completely humane--they just put a rubber band around it until it dies and falls off"

And especially laughable? "Oh, Pembrokes are born with naturally docked tails from so many years of actual docking". Sure, acquired characteristics are so often passed along! How about we chop off a hand and see if your kids are born with two?


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

For a forward thinking nation our American cousins can be shockingly backwards on occasions...evolution and canine welfare being two.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

You just cant argue with some people though. Although how anybody isnt able to see chopping off a dogs tail and slicing off its ears is mutilation is beyond me. I dont care if they take them to a vet, or do it coz they like how it looks.
I remember a similar arguement on a Chihuahua forum with a couple of people who had pierced their dogs ears and had them wearing earrings. You just couldnt make a dent in their sense of logic, warped though it was.

One of my fav things is having a dog on my lap and playing with their ears, how sad if all you had was a stump..


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## s4simo (Mar 27, 2011)

Surely ears are there for a purpose i.e. when our furry friends are tear-arsing around the fields sticking their heads in god knows what they don't end up with all sorts of crap and debris in them. Or do the americans have nice sterile dogy- gyms for them as well


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

*its cruel!​*


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## BenMac (Oct 18, 2009)

shells said:


> i didnt know that people cut there dogs ears


Me neither :blink:
I'd never heard of that before.


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

BenMac said:


> Me neither :blink:
> I'd never heard of that before.


Ear Cropping





> This is a huge commitment, no doubt about it, but the beauty is well worth it if it is something you and your puppy can manage.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Johnderondon said:


> For a forward thinking nation our American cousins can be shockingly backwards on occasions...evolution and canine welfare being two.


Don't kid yourself. We are actually pretty damned backwards in lots of ways when it gets right down to it. Especially when it comes to animals. Factory farms, ear cropping, tail docking, genetic modifications, dog fighting, more kill-shelters than not. I could go on and on.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Wow, I didnt know they did Schnauzers!!
(My first look at cropped ears was probably Zeus and Apollo on Magnum!! and I did kinda think they were that way naturally.)


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## holly1 (Aug 10, 2010)

s4simo said:


> OMG I didn't realise this even happened. Surely an animal is not yours to use and abuse just because it has the misfortune to live in your house!
> You have to seriously question the morals of people who knowingly mutilate their animals and the so-called 'professionals' that do it
> View attachment 62404


First Ive heard too.Its disgusting
So is docking tails for cosmetics:nono:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

American dog forums are a real eye opener. When I was going on one I was amazed at how people can just shoot a dog in a dog park for fighting with another mans dog!  Neighbours dogs get shot too, if they stray onto property and attack a dog, there's not much trying to stop the fight and although some say it's a bit extreme, most agreed with it - wtf???

So what you have said comes as little surprise to me tbh - I stopped going on there because I felt like such an outsider - or should I say so much more civilised!


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## beary_clairey (Jan 23, 2011)

I think the owners should have their ears cropped! What a bunch of backward idiots.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

holly1 said:


> First Ive heard too.Its disgusting
> So is docking tails for cosmetics:nono:


I think it is mostly cosmetic, especially over here. I mean, how many working cattle herding corgis could there be in America? I've had people try to tell me that Pems are docked because in the middle ages it was feared their tails would catch in mechanized farm equipment while herding the cattle:lol:. Sure, all those gas powered tractors in the 13th century were quite the threat to the cattle walking along beside them. Not to mention, since cardigans are really the more working breed, why do they have tails, then? None of it makes any sense to me, so I tend to believe, yup, it's really mostly cosmetic.


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## niki (Jan 14, 2009)

I've jus googled this ear cropping business... OMG!! I can't beleive people think they have a right to do this.... Total an utter morons... 

I've gotta admit tho, in the past Ive seen similar pictures to those that I've found tonight an naiveley thought that this was jus how they was.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

It is not that long ago you could read threads about tail docking with similar reasoning .


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## NoSpecialFeaturesHere (Nov 23, 2008)

These are probably the same people who routinely cut their cats' toes off and see nothing wrong with it.

Beggars belief that people can be so heartless really, to the pets they claim to love.


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

A majority of the people on the forum in question are under 25 :blink: They think it's okay to see their dogs like this


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't agree with it and woulden't do it myslf but I can confess is is visually stunning to me and I would defiantly adopt a dog that already had it done 

Dobermann
















Docked and cropped.

Great dane
















Docked and cropped

Schnauzer


















































All three are docked and cropped.

Boxer
















Docked and cropped

Pitbull Terrier/American staffordshire terrier
















Generally Cropped but sometimes can be docked.

Dogo Argentino
















Cropped only

Presa Canary
















Cropped only

I think this is all of the list of cropped dogs, if i've missed any lemme know.


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## NoSpecialFeaturesHere (Nov 23, 2008)

I don't think that looks good. They look maimed.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

tbh having grown up with working springers and labs I don't even see the need for docking in working dogs 99% of the time

labs, retrievers, flatties etc aren't docked routinely and they work in the same conditions as the springers/cockers etc... if a working dog damages its tail then it's humane to dock

*if* a floppy eared dog gets an insane number of ear infections then the vet may crop the affected ear(s) after all other options have been exhausted - only ever seen one case of this and even then not sure if I trust the vet's reasoning - was a lil crossbreed so not an excuse to do a showbreed though...

the fact that these people can merrily mutilate their pets then dispose of them when they get behavioural problems... scares me

as a species... we suck!


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

It would appear the purpose is purely to make the animal look vicous. How stunning is that dobbie with his tail and natural ears? As to the forum members being under 25 ... I know many younger people who find these acts abhorant!


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

I'm 17 and I am shocked that people my age are wanting their dogs mutilated for their personal benefit.

I was clearly bought up to respect my animals and to appriciate their beauty. Having a dog is a privilidge, I appriciate that more now Rosie is gone. It is not a right and it certainly is not a right to cut off their body parts because the sodding Kennel Club tells you to, because it's traditional or becaue your dog makes you look cool!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

SpringerHusky said:


> I don't agree with it and woulden't do it myslf but I can confess is is visually stunning to me and I would defiantly adopt a dog that already had it done
> 
> Dobermann
> 
> ...


*As much as i hate the idea i have to admit i think the dob. and the great dane look regal.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

hawksport said:


> I'm looking through hard drives for photos of my friends imported cropped Dobe


*I look forward to seeing them.Out of interest,when the ears are cropped is it done under anaesthetic?*


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *As much as i hate the idea i have to admit i think the dob. and the great dane look regal.*


I do like dobbies with cropped ears, they look very proud as do the danes, where as danes with floppy ears just look very dopey (I don't mean that in a bad way, my friend has 4 of them with floppy ears and I love 'em to pieces)

I did miss a breed

Bully Kutta
















Cropped only.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

SpringerHusky said:


> I do like dobbies with cropped ears, they look very proud as do the danes, where as danes with floppy ears just look very dopey (I don't mean that in a bad way, my friend has 4 of them with floppy ears and I love 'em to pieces)
> 
> I did miss a breed
> 
> ...


They strike fear into me after Afghanistan, made my heart jump  Beautiful creatures, but not so much when they're guarding their owners and property that you would like to walk past and you don't have the choice to go another way


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Must admit I do like the look of the cropped ears on the Danes, Dobes and Boxers - but I wouldnt ever support such a thing just for the looks, I dont think it benefits the dogs in the slightest and therefore I dont agree with it..no matter how 'flashy' it looks!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Under a GA then stitched all around the cut edges then either posted or taped to a cone on the puppies head


* Oh sorry but i couldn't do that to a dog.I'm not squeamish by a long way but that brought tears to my eyes.*


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

IndysMamma said:


> tbh having grown up with working springers and labs I don't even see the need for docking in working dogs 99% of the time
> 
> *labs, retrievers, flatties etc aren't docked routinely and they work in the same conditions as the springers/cockers etc... if a working dog damages its tail then it's humane to dock*
> 
> ...


I think the reason that the retrievers, labs etc aren't docked when they do the same job in the same conditions as traditionally docked breeds is to do with the size of the tail. The ones mentioned have much more robust, heavy duty tails that are much less easily damaged.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Must admit I do like the look of the cropped ears on the Danes, Dobes and Boxers - but I wouldnt ever support such a thing just for the looks, I dont think it benefits the dogs in the slightest and therefore I dont agree with it..no matter how 'flashy' it looks!


They do look regal and it is visually stunning, but I think all of these breeds look so much sweeter and softer with natural ears. I suppose sweet and soft are not what you want in a boxer or dobie, but when I think of the slicing and dicing on their lovely soft ears, I much prefer sweet and soft myself


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

dagny0823 said:


> They do look regal and it is visually stunning, but I think all of these breeds look so much sweeter and softer with natural ears. I suppose sweet and soft are not what you want in a boxer or dobie, but when I think of the slicing and dicing on their lovely soft ears, I much prefer sweet and soft myself


I just love their expression  (not enough to make me carry out or support such practices though!). The cropped ears, do change the whole look!


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I just love their expression  (not enough to make me carry out or support such practices though!). The cropped ears, do change the whole look!


I agree, I simply adore the look but I would never buy from a breeder who has done it or even do it myself. I would love a dobby with cropped ears so when I do i'll look in a rescue  (i'll be in the usa by that time hopefully)

It really would be wonderful if it could be bred in, I mean if I recall either pichers or min pins have both flopped and naturally standing ears.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

hawksport said:


> My friends is a rescue in the UK


Yeah, i've seen a few advertised here in the uk for import so woulden't surprise me if there was some in the uk.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

hawksport said:


> When you walk a cropped Dobe nobody wants to touch it


Ah I dont care - not many people wanna touch me naked dogs either


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> I think this is all of the list of cropped dogs, if i've missed any lemme know.


Neo









Briard









Beauceron









Bouvier









Min Pin









Cane Corso









Alano Espanol









I don't like the look and I like the procedure even less; I'd rather have my puppy enjoying his carefree puppy days WITHOUT major surgery and painful, lengthy aftercare!
Besides, if more people adopt or buy cropped dogs from other countries I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in "DIY" jobs in the UK, especially in the UK Pit industry. I have no idea how they police cropping, the only cropped dog I've seen in this country was a Mini Schnauzer a few years ago.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I have a friend with cane corsos and they look much better with their ears, I dont think cropping suits all breeders to be honest!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I didnt know that dobermans had tails or ears until about 8 years ago!!  They used to be my fav breed of dog, I prefer their ears cropped and no tail, but only because Im so used to seeing it that way, never knew what went into it until the ban came in. Some do look nicer, but their ears are that way for a reason so I do find it a little pointless (cuse the pun  ) to make them pointy? 

didnt know they did most of them breeds either! :huh:


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

It is quite evident that man has thoughtlessly fostered and corrupted breed after breed in his quest to find the ultimate in guard or aggressive looking dogs and he will continue to do this until many large breeds or breeds considered adequate to suit his twisted image begin to disappear altogether.

To date each relevant breed in turn has been the focal point of public concern simply because they have been misrepresented through the misuse of ownership.

The image of the aggressive dog grew out of America! 
I've mentioned this on occasion before and apart from the recognised but controversial cosmetic procedures which enhance the ferocious looks of dogs/s that are mentioned here within this thread, it seems that the little less known and practiced trend of nip and tuck jowls to make a dog appear with a permanent snarl has gone completely unnoticed. 
Whether or not the practice itself has been outlawed altogether I don't really know, but I do clearly remember seeing a pair of Dobermans with the full compliment of body modifications complete with heavily studded collars walking down International Avenue in Florida. Their appearance was not only remarkable and astounding but also very disturbing.:glare:

*If they must have something to customise then I suggest they buy a [email protected]@king car!*


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## wooliewoo (May 27, 2008)

I have seen Boxer pups not long after ear cropping (all bandaged up) while in USA........all i wanted to do was grab them and get um in my suitcase to bring them home for some TLC.......poor little mites

When i showed pics of our girls they said how strange they looked with normal ears:nono:

Mind what do you expect from a country still allowing dogs to be sold from indoor flea markets (Yes i had a few words to say bout that before being dragged away by hubby:nono


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## holly1 (Aug 10, 2010)

alot of you seem to almost justify it,as you like the look of it.Shame on you:nono:
They dont have a choice in this,its disgusting,unless its for medical reasons,whats the point?


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

I've met a litter of freshly cropped dobermann puppies. They were the happiest, non-bothered little lot I have ever seen! They had the procedure under GA, when they came out, the ears were stuck to a foam wedge to keep the edges in the open air so they could heal. They were given pain meds. The stitches are removed and the ears are usually posted until between 8 and 12 months, sometimes longer depending on the length of the crop and the quality of the ear leather. These puppies were slightly groggy for a bit, but just a few hours later they were all up and playing around as if nothing had happened.

I am on the fence. I personally feel hard pressed to find anything as aesthetically pleasing as a well-bred cropped/docked Dobermann, but for me, I am not sure I would be able to handle the taping process which is usually re-done every 4-7 days. If you plan to show in the USA, cropped ears are pretty much essential. There are only a handful of natural eared champions in USA/Canada. Canada's breed standard allows for natural ears, but in the USA it is a fault.

People will try to say that cropped ears help prevent ear infections, but this is a myth. There's also the idea that having less ear mass and less of a tail, there is less for any attacker to grab hold of and use against the dog to harm him/her and get the dog to retreat.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

As a child I had a Lab X who managed to cause some nasty injuries to his tail within the home... these included... breaking the tip in a door and slicing the tip off after wagging it against the edge of a radiator.

The vets advice was to get him docked because the amount of times he had got his tail caught on and in things and we almost did get him docked, but while deciding about tail docking, he was found to have cancer and ended up being PTS, so he never got his tail docked in the end... but that is about the only time I would consider dockking... his tail was always sore with grazes or bleeding with cuts, and the tip was bent ...his tail was a mennace to him and docking really was the better option in his case.

Any other reason to dock or even crop a pet dog, would just because the owner couldn`t bare to see the poor dog looking natural :blink:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I've heard quite a few breeders they're mine and I can do what I want with my toys *stamps foot*. How dare you say I can't. . Ok paraphrasing but you get the idea. It's cruel and barbaric and serves no purpose whatsoever. People try to saythey do it because it gives the guard breeds more of a tough look then do it to min pins and griffon buxellois I wasn't aware they were guard breeds. 

I was talking to someone who doesn't particularly like dogs and they were disgusted by it. They said it was nice to see boxers with tails I said they used to cut them off and they did the same with their ears in the US and they were horrified. Yet on an american great dane site one of the uncropped puppies ears were upright as they were running and it was x with the right ears for once


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I look forward to seeing them.Out of interest,when the ears are cropped is it done under anaesthetic?*


Only since the invention of anaesthetic.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Cropped Dogue de Bordeaux picture from early last century. Dogues are no longer cropped, but like most fighting breeds, the ears were cropped to prevent opponents getting a grip and having them torn off. A lot of large game hunting and catch dogs have cropped ears for this reason, too.


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

Oh it's disgusting and barbaric. I'm baffled as to why people think dogs with their ears cut off looks good!? 
Dogs are beautiful natural.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

How many of you have neutered your dogs or had dew claws removed?

How many of you have pierced or allowed a child to pierce their ears?

How many Jewish/muslim people have had their child circumcised? 

How many of you have had dogs that have undergone massive operations (me, cos I couldn't bear to have him PTS even though some told me to do it because it's not 'natural' to put an animal through weeks of cage rest)

I don't agree with ear cropping, I do agree with docking (for working dogs).

Ooh, controversial! I love threads like this because they generate a lot of really interesting posts. It fascintates me that particualr breeds have been manipulated over the years to look a certain way and when people manipulate physically, they are villified, rightly or wrongly.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> I didnt know that dobermans had tails or ears until about 8 years ago!!  They used to be my fav breed of dog, I prefer their ears cropped and no tail, but only because Im so used to seeing it that way, never knew what went into it until the ban came in. Some do look nicer, but their ears are that way for a reason so I do find it a little pointless (cuse the pun  ) to make them pointy?
> 
> didnt know they did most of them breeds either! :huh:


You should not have seen a cropped doberman in this country, it has been illegal for many many years.

I dont like the cropped look, but isnt it supposed to make them look fiercer so they make better guard or fighting dogs and can also show their expression less as their ears stay in one position.
I have nothing at all against docking. We dock lambs and there is no suffering with it. I have seen plenty of pups docked too. Ear cropping is totally different - much more invasive and a lot of after care.


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## Pineapple (Sep 9, 2010)

It's a fashion issue. People breed to achieve a certain aesthetic trait in their dogs. But cutting bits off a dog to make it look 'cool' or scary is just sad. It's like someone slicing up and shaping their kid's ear. Ear piercing it aint. There is a point where the stuff people do to their pets is unacceptable. I don't think dogs with cropped ears look cool. They look like dogs who've had the skin of their _ears_ cut and styled.


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## Hb-mini (May 20, 2009)

Awful practice. In America they crop schnauzers ears and i think it looks awful. Would never put Bella through that! xx


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Min pins can have naturally upright ears









Floppy









Naturally upright









Cropped


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

babycham2002 said:


> My ex bless his heart thought that those dogs just came in an 'up eared variety' as well as what we see normally
> He just would not have it that people would do that to dogs! Oh how i wish that were true


Me too. I thought floppy ears in dobermanns and others meant they didn't get enough milk from their moms  So glad it is outlawed in most civilised countries.

As far as docking goes, I understand that in some instances, it may be necessary for health reasons, e.g. real working/hunting dogs or sheep, but it is morally wrong IMO to do it for cosmetic purposes. 
That said, we do "tip" the ears of feral cats' ears that we sterilise so that we know which ones have been done (it has happened that already sterilised cats have been trapped and undergone a needless surgery only to disciover they had already been done. But that is for purely practical purposes and is done at the same time as the sterilisation op.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

cinammontoast said:


> How many of you have neutered your dogs or had dew claws removed?


There is no valid comparison between a medically beneficial procedure and comestic procedure that offers no benefit to the dog.



casandra said:


> I've met a litter of freshly cropped dobermann puppies. They were the happiest, non-bothered little lot I have ever seen!


There is strong evidence that puppies are genetically predisposed to hide/suppress pain and discomfort so your observation may not be reliable. The fact that pain meds are required suggests to me that they were not as "non-bothered" as they would have been without having their ears cropped.



> There's also the idea that having less ear mass and less of a tail, there is less for any attacker to grab hold of and use against the dog to harm him/her and get the dog to retreat.


If a police GSD comes for me I'll just grab its tail then! Anyone who thinks they could fend off a Dobermann's attack by grabbing its ears has never faced a Dobermann's attack. It's just a bull argument whose very invention betrays the fragility and bankruptcy of the true and underlying reason - that they care more about the look than the dog.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

I don't even think it looks good, to me natural and healthy looks good (but there again, I find many breeds disturbing to look at, when the focus on appearance has led to physical problems with breathing, hips etc.).
It's certainly not the same as ear piercing, which is a punch through cartilage, something I had done, not as a child, but as a legal adult who could take my own decision to mutilate my ears!

American attitudes to mutilating pets for aesthetics or convenience: see also declawing cats and de-barking dogs. Grim.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Tapir said:


> I'm 17 and I am shocked that people my age are wanting their dogs mutilated for their personal benefit.
> 
> I was clearly bought up to respect my animals and to appriciate their beauty. Having a dog is a privilidge, I appriciate that more now Rosie is gone. It is not a right and it certainly is not a right to cut off their body parts because the sodding Kennel Club tells you to, because it's traditional or becaue your dog makes you look cool!


Woah - hang on a sec - don't bring the Kennel Club into this! The Kennel Club is firmly against cropping ears and docking tails. Cropped eared dogs are not allowed to be shown in the UK, and only legally docked working dogs are only allowed to be shown - and that's only at venues where the public do not pay to get in. In fact, if you have any operation at all on your dog, you have to apply for permission to continue showing, sending a vet's letter stating that the operation was done for medical reasons.

Otherwise, I agree with your sentiments entirely!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *As much as i hate the idea i have to admit i think the dob. and the great dane look regal.*


Got to disagree here Janice - I think they look dreadful. They looked much better before someone chopped them to bits :cryin:


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Johnderondon said:


> There is no valid comparison between a medically beneficial procedure and comestic procedure that offers no benefit to the dog.


Not saying that there is but if people are allowed to cut bits off their own children and no-one goes crazy about it, then cutting bits off dogs, whether medically beneficial or not (and I absolutely have to disagree that automatic neutering of dogs is always beneficial) is hardly going to be stopped.

In fact, I'd be tempted to go so far as to protest against the religious procedures. I think it's barbaric and unnecessary and medically non-beneficial.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

cinammontoast said:


> How many of you have neutered your dogs or had dew claws removed?
> I don't think neutering is a fair comparison, seeing as it eliminates reproductive cancers and infections as well as preventing unwanted pups. Dew claws are removed shortly after birth aren't they? Not a procedure I know much about. Besides, neither procedure has the lengthy aftercare that a crop does.
> 
> How many of you have pierced or allowed a child to pierce their ears?
> ...


Interesting post! I've seen similar reasoning in pro vs. anti docking arguments and at the end of the day, cropping isn't easily comparable to anything. Even docking a non-working breed is in my eyes less of an issue because of the different procedure.

I wonder what people would say if people started tattooing their children with their own designs as babies, that seems like a closer comparison than the ear piercing argument!


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

cinammontoast said:


> In fact, I'd be tempted to go so far as to protest against the religious procedures. I think it's barbaric and unnecessary and medically non-beneficial.


Hear hear! Can't see anything changing on this matter mind you!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Thorne said:


> Hear hear! Can't see anything changing on this matter mind you!


Me neither but it strikes me as really unfair to do this to a child. I would prefer to allow the child a choice when he is older. I find it bizarre that we gasp at the procedures in say African tribes re 'mutilation', ear/neck stretching, but allow religion to dictate the removal of a body part.


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Woah - hang on a sec - don't bring the Kennel Club into this! The Kennel Club is firmly against cropping ears and docking tails. Cropped eared dogs are not allowed to be shown in the UK, and only legally docked working dogs are only allowed to be shown - and that's only at venues where the public do not pay to get in. In fact, if you have any operation at all on your dog, you have to apply for permission to continue showing, sending a vet's letter stating that the operation was done for medical reasons.
> 
> Otherwise, I agree with your sentiments entirely!


Woah - hang on a sec - I was referring to the American Kennel Club. I am aware cropping is illegal here. 

ETA: the Kennel Club (whichever country) should be bought into it, as the fact is if they tell you to do, breeders/showers do it. When it was in the standard people docked their dogs for showing without batting an eye lid.

I know it never would, but for the sake of this:
If the UK Kennel Club bought in ear cropping of your breed (Begamascos I believe) into the breed standard, would you crop in order to continue showing? Purely out of interest.

Thankfully that would never happen and the UK KC finally saw the light with docking. 
The above question applies to anyone who shows and breeds too.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Thorne said:


> Hear hear! Can't see anything changing on this matter mind you!


Circumcision isn't just religion though seems to almost be the done thing in America for baby boys for some reason Jewish/Muslim or not


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Tapir said:


> ETA: the Kennel Club (whichever country) should be bought into it, as the fact is if they tell you to do, breeders/showers do it. When it was in the standard people docked their dogs for showing without batting an eye lid.


You've got it the wrong way round. The breed clubs (made up of pet-owners, working-owners and show-owners) tell the Kennel Club what is in the breed standard. The Kennel Club does not tell them 



Tapir said:


> I know it never would, but for the sake of this:
> If the UK Kennel Club bought in ear cropping of your breed (Begamascos I believe) into the breed standard, would you crop in order to continue showing? Purely out of interest.


As you say, it never would. But if it did, there is no way I would ever crop ears. I'm surprised, given the rest of my posts on this thread, that you even had to ask.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

In Europe clipping Briards ears was normal, it is now banned in nearly all of them thank goodness. In the USA they still clip them and as far as I know, they have no intention to change it. 

This really gets me mad, what right do we have to clop bits off a dog just because of fashion.:mad5: :mad5: :mad5: :mad5: :mad5:


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Excluding the obvious that it is cruel and unnecessary I think the Briard and the Bouvier look ridiculous! (not that I think the others look good, just those to in particular I think look really odd)


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Circumcision isn't just religion though seems to almost be the done thing in America for baby boys for some reason Jewish/Muslim or not


That's so true. You wouldn't believe the arguments that go on on parenting boards here. My sister circ'd both her boys because her OH insisted. I tried to talk them out of it.  It's something that she says she 'cried her tears over', but I called B.S. on that one (a mother is a mother and you have to have both parents consent) and had no sympathy for her, just my nephews. My OH wanted it done on our son at first so I made him come to the pediatrician with me and listen to her say that it was completely unnecessary. Now he's glad we didn't do it. 

Biscuit has a docked tail. She doesn't seem to miss it, but I still wish it hadn't been done. As I've said before we made so many mistakes getting her, but we all just love her so much now.

Ear cropping is just cruel imo, I didn't even know it was done before this thread. Why put them through that kind of pain when they're wee just for a particular look?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

babycham2002 said:


> Excluding the obvious that it is cruel and unnecessary I think the Briard and the Bouvier look ridiculous! (not that I think the others look good, just those to in particular I think look really odd)


Briards are one of the few breeds I think look good with it for some reason I would never get it done for a look though


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Personally I like the look of cropped Great Danes. However I don't agree with the procedure and would never ever do it (if it was legal) so there's no need to panic 

However, I do agree with tail docking in working dogs - but not for cosmetic purposes. A springer I groom is worked and i have to leave her tail full instead of clipping or trimming it because she is constantly bursting it and splitting it open


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Tail docking in working spaniels and HPRs I can understand but I don't agree with it in rotties etc there's no point.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

babycham2002 said:


> Excluding the obvious that it is cruel and unnecessary I think the Briard and the Bouvier look ridiculous! (not that I think the others look good, just those to in particular I think look really odd)


I only had a quick look at the thread before my last post and missed the page with the Briard on, I've seen other pictures of Briards with cropped ears but this one is awful, it looks like he is wearing a Spanish Dance's head dress. :crazy:


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