# Best recall training for "dog obsessed" dog ?



## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

AS the title asks really!

What is the best recall training for a young adult dog, who is obsessed with dogs! Who has no interest in toys/food/praise when out walking... other dogs seem to be his biggest motivational reward, judging by the way he runs to greet them and the selective hearing while his playing 

All advice, tips, hints most welcome!


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

In class we are doing distance commands - it is really working - obviously we've had gliches but I did (even though it was just the once) get him to lay down at a distance and stay down until the other dog passed. :thumbup:

I also - Louie being dog obsessed too take him to class where he learns to be focussed on me rather than the other dogs. 

Hope this helps - pushed for time otherwise I would explain more.. sorry - will explain in detail when I get home


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Long line?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Roxy is obsessed with other dogs but luckily we don't meet many when out. She is also obsessed with chasing things though so I've been trying to use distractions when we are out to get her to look at me - rather than scanning the are for something to chase 

Roxy isn't particularly food motivated & wasn't fussed about toys too much but I was advised to try & get her interested in one toy whilst at home. I used a squeaky ball & basically looked like a mentalist as I played with it at home, squeaked it alot & treated it like it was the best thing ever!

She became more & more interested (she also did with other toys & now enjoys playing with them) but is now very interested in squeaky balls. she only gets to play with them very occassionally (as this keeps them as a treat & was initially costing me a fortune as she has to 'kill' them all!). 

If I feel she is losing her focus on me & is getting distracted I get the squeaky ball out & this does get her back again - not 100% by any means but thjings have been much improved.

Also, when we do meet up with the other dog we walk with I have started arriving early so when they turn up I try making her sit & 'wait' before letting her go charging off to them. We use the 'wait' command at home alot now, before going upstairs, before going through doors, waiting for meals, treats, etc - mainly because they were charging about too much & knocking me over so this just makes them think a bit more

This hasn't 'cured' her by any means but has improved things alot, I think it will just be a long process


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Just discovered I have an hour (stupid clock)

Anyway Distance control is mainly for obedience; sit, down and stand at a distance.

Louie used to be perfect at it, but we've had some problems with his elbow so he can't do too much. I asked my trainer if I could use this to curb his enthusiasm for other dogs as he'll never be an obedience dog he just needs it to focus his mind. She said I could, wasn't designed for it but it should and has (once) worked.

He's a short video of him training in the garden:


I will, when he gets the all clear, be doing distance control whilst my other two are running around, recalling and the such.. Although I have done it whilst the rabbits have been out and he LOVES the rabbits and he's done it pretty well. The only thing you need really is a good stay. I hold my hand up in the air for stay and use my other hand to tell him what he's supposed to do, palm up means sit, palm down means down, both hands shooing towards him means back (or stand)

Other than that lunge line him and teach him recall again, from scratch and around other dogs. Louie will go and say hi but will recall afterwards.

Or you could whistle train him, I can get Louie off a flock of birds (well not all the time but he's still learning) with a whistle..


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*Anyway Distance control is mainly for obedience; sit, down and stand at a distance. *

Actually all exercises in competition obedience have a practical purpose, control at a distance being just one of them.


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## natty01 (Sep 4, 2011)

get yourself a copy of control unleashed by leslie mc devitt , its a brilliant book and deals with this kind of thing , its not a normal training book , the excersises are designed to help with all aspects of distraction and impulse control , stressed dogs and over excited dogs . i thoroughly reccomend it .
its a book that has been invaluable for me . i think i will start a thread on it and find out how many other people have benifitted from it .



sailor said:


> AS the title asks really!
> 
> What is the best recall training for a young adult dog, who is obsessed with dogs! Who has no interest in toys/food/praise when out walking... other dogs seem to be his biggest motivational reward, judging by the way he runs to greet them and the selective hearing while his playing
> 
> All advice, tips, hints most welcome!


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> *Anyway Distance control is mainly for obedience; sit, down and stand at a distance. *
> 
> Actually all exercises in competition obedience have a practical purpose, control at a distance being just one of them.


Yes but it is only mainly used in obedience right? There are other things it is used for but not all dog owners use these.. like gundog work, the dog has to go left and right at a distance and go back to look for the game. In herding the dog does most things at a distance. HTM the dog will do twirls at a distance (we found that hard!)

The average dog owner doesn't do much of these at all, I have always seen owners call their dogs back to them before commanding them to do something because they haven't learnt to train at a distance they've just learnt the basics.. unless their dog has been trained up into a sport or profession (would you call them professions?) Thats what I meant by it is mainly an obedience thing


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*


SLB said:



Yes but it is only mainly used in obedience right? There are other things it is used for but not all dog owners use these.. like gundog work, the dog has to go left and right at a distance and go back to look for the game. In herding the dog does most things at a distance. HTM the dog will do twirls at a distance (we found that hard!)

Click to expand...

*


SLB said:


> *The average dog owner doesn't do much of these at all, I have always seen owners call their dogs back to them before commanding them to do something because they haven't learnt to train at a distance they've just learnt the basics.. unless their dog has been trained up into a sport or profession (would you call them professions?) Thats what I meant by it is mainly an obedience thing *




Many dog owners, in my humble opinion, seem to think their puppy is born completely house trained, knowing not to pull on the lead, not to jump up, come immediately when called, etc. etc.....

An instant down at a distance can be a lifesaver and is a valuable exercise to teach.

Funny - Several years ago, when I was competing in HTM, I was working on a matador routine which started off with my bitch in the stand, then required to paw the ground and twist twice before charging the cape. She had recently qualified C only and when we got to DC in one of the first rounds she worked...... you've guessed it, she went into matador routine. The judges face was a picture!!


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Great! I'd have loved to have seen that! (Matador)

Recall training, I ALWAYS use a whistle. Start off in a confined area and build up from there. I'd also put him on a long line with a few knots in it (so when I stood on it, it didn't just whip out under my foot).


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

First, this is absolutely normal for young dogs and part of their developemnt. Think of the herds of teenagers you see giggling in groups? 
It is a phase, and they get past it. 
I would go to training classes so your dog learns commands while around other dogs (yes you will have to work hard but no-one said this was easy)
You could also enlist the help of a friend with well behaved dogs to walk with. That way your dog gets his doggy fix and also copies their good behaviour. A win-win situation. :thumbup:


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I have been thinking about this since we last met because we were talking about it...I know, slow .

I have a book called 'Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts' by Clarissa Von Reinhardt which has lots of methods for engaging your dog on walks and stopping chasing which I use a lot. We do seem to be getting somewhere.....and Kilo doesn't engage with another dog *most* of the time or isn't too bad to recall from a dog *most* of the time. You've seen him in action anyway - the worst and sometimes best of his behaviour!!! .


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

SLB said:


> Yes but it is only mainly used in obedience right? There are other things it is used for but not all dog owners use these.. like gundog work, the dog has to go left and right at a distance and go back to look for the game. In herding the dog does most things at a distance. HTM the dog will do twirls at a distance (we found that hard!)
> 
> The average dog owner doesn't do much of these at all, I have always seen owners call their dogs back to them before commanding them to do something because they haven't learnt to train at a distance they've just learnt the basics.. unless their dog has been trained up into a sport or profession (would you call them professions?) Thats what I meant by it is mainly an obedience thing





Twiggy said:


> Many dog owners, in my humble opinion, seem to think their puppy is born completely house trained, knowing not to pull on the lead, not to jump up, come immediately when called, etc. etc.....
> 
> An instant down at a distance can be a lifesaver and is a valuable exercise to teach.


I started teaching distance commands very early, making it clear that the command, say sit, was to be done where the dog was, not come to me and sit or whatever. Yes, it can be a life saver and is useful in so many circumstances, for instance when the dog is off lead on the cyclepath and a bike comes - tell the dog to down wait and both dog and cyclist are safe.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> I started teaching distance commands very early, making it clear that the command, say sit, was to be done where the dog was, not come to me and sit or whatever. Yes, it can be a life saver and is useful in so many circumstances, *for instance when the dog is off lead on the cyclepath and a bike comes - tell the dog to down wait and both dog and cyclist are safe*.


This is mainly what I use it for


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

Sailor; you sound like me. My 10 month Lab is proving a real challenge right now as it's not only the fact he wants to run off to other dogs but when trying to contain him (if he's on the lead and passing an interseting one) at 32 kg's it's *bloody hard work*. I go out with a happy PMA mind and by the end of the walk I'm so wound up cos my arms are so tired of the struggle. He is just so obsessed right now and I did read on here that at 9/10 months they're at the peak of testosterone and so I have a question for the experienced folk on here; do you think this is why it has suddenly got worse?

Some days I could cry as I have done everything to try and control situations and am training to the best of my ability....I'm not one of these people that don't really care less.
He is going to a class now on a Saturday to mainly try and desensitise whilst being around other dogs but working with me and not playing during that hour. First week went fairly well to be fair but that's with cheesy treats and lots of!

This afternoon I'm feeling a bit down just wondering if he will ever grow out of this purely with age?? and just not be so manic whilst out. He's so chilled in the house so he's not a hyper dog.


He's off a fair bit when there's nothing to distract him (to which he behaves) but then I weigh up a situation if I do see something coming and if there's a danger/risk I put him back on. The whistle has helped get his attention but it's still not a 100% recall if it's a playful dog he meets.

Is this bad to think - roll on old age?!!! :-/


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Long line?


I am going to get him a longline this weekend, it was my first thought... but not sure how to actually go about using the long line alongside training?
Do I just cling onto it and if he goes to far, drag him back ?
No idea, common sense completely fails me at times 



Cleo38 said:


> Roxy is obsessed with other dogs but luckily we don't meet many when out. She is also obsessed with chasing things though so I've been trying to use distractions when we are out to get her to look at me - rather than scanning the are for something to chase
> 
> Roxy isn't particularly food motivated & wasn't fussed about toys too much but I was advised to try & get her interested in one toy whilst at home. I used a squeaky ball & basically looked like a mentalist as I played with it at home, squeaked it alot & treated it like it was the best thing ever!
> 
> ...


Sailor is OBSESSED with praise/food and toys in the home, he will do anything you ask of him to get his rewards, he will even try as hard as he can to learn new tricks! So I do have hope atleast, because I know he has it in him... its just once outside, nothing matters apart from other dogs! I could give him the whole treat bag and he wont touch it ! I could squeak his favourite toys and he *might* mouth it... but thats about it.... his mind is always on where is the next dog!
I have even lay down onthe floor laughing and squealing, with toys and treats... he just ignored me and still ran off to find another dog 



SLB said:


> Just discovered I have an hour (stupid clock)
> 
> Anyway Distance control is mainly for obedience; sit, down and stand at a distance.
> 
> ...


Louie is lovely and what fab work you are doing with him :thumbsup: well done!
Sailor is perfect with long distance commands... sit & lay down... but once again, only at home! I sometimes stand in an upstairs window while Sailor is out side...I command him UP ! and he jumps on the trampolene... then I command SIT... LAY DOWN ! ...then OFF (to get him off the trampolene) and he is fab with them.... not tried BACK tho! So again, I know Sailor is a fantastic dog when I can get his atention in the home... it is just outside where he knows other dogs are around, theres just little getting through to him 



natty01 said:


> get yourself a copy of control unleashed by leslie mc devitt , its a brilliant book and deals with this kind of thing , its not a normal training book , the excersises are designed to help with all aspects of distraction and impulse control , stressed dogs and over excited dogs . i thoroughly reccomend it .
> its a book that has been invaluable for me . i think i will start a thread on it and find out how many other people have benifitted from it .


I shall look out for this book, and depending on pennies, will depend on how soon I can get it! It does sound like something me and Sailor will benefit from greatly 



8tansox said:


> Great! I'd have loved to have seen that! (Matador)
> 
> Recall training, I ALWAYS use a whistle. Start off in a confined area and build up from there. I'd also put him on a long line with a few knots in it (so when I stood on it, it didn't just whip out under my foot).


I have a whistle and recently I have been using it, he comes quicker using a whistle, but again, not when theres a dog in sight!
Obviously once we get the longline, the whistle will be used, rather than a simple shout from me. 
Good tip on putting knots in the line too ! Will defo put a few in lol



ClaireandDaisy said:


> First, this is absolutely normal for young dogs and part of their developemnt. Think of the herds of teenagers you see giggling in groups?
> It is a phase, and they get past it.
> I would go to training classes so your dog learns commands while around other dogs (yes you will have to work hard but no-one said this was easy)
> You could also enlist the help of a friend with well behaved dogs to walk with. That way your dog gets his doggy fix and also copies their good behaviour. A win-win situation. :thumbup:


I did look for training classes just for Sailor to get used to the distraction of other dogs, but havent found any in my area that are close enough, or earlier enough to suit my life and the children.
For example a class thats an hours walk, not on a public transport route, via country roads and finishes at 8pm.... no way am I walking on dark country roads with my children sat at home waiting for their mental Mom to return lol 
I will continue to search for anything more suitable tho as it is worth going to... but not worth dicing with death on dark country roads!

I dont have any friends who have dogs and as commited to training... well bar Dogless and Kilo, but Sailor will happily run back and forth from Kilo as he plays and I do call him randomly as we walk for a fuss and tell him his a good boy. He is used to Kilo now tho, which again gives me hope with him 



Dogless said:


> I have been thinking about this since we last met because we were talking about it...I know, slow .
> 
> I have a book called 'Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts' by Clarissa Von Reinhardt which has lots of methods for engaging your dog on walks and stopping chasing which I use a lot. We do seem to be getting somewhere.....and Kilo doesn't engage with another dog *most* of the time or isn't too bad to recall from a dog *most* of the time. You've seen him in action anyway - the worst and sometimes best of his behaviour!!! .


I shall also look for this book !

I think Kilo is doing fab... I like it when he stops and you can see him stood there thinking... shall I go or not... then he does.. but then he comes back... then he stands thinking about it again, bless him

Where as Sailor just seems to just go! 
When his with Kilo there are times he will see another dog and not run, or see another dog want to run, but comes back when I call him. This never happens when he isnt with Kilo tho, so I think his just weighing up whether the other dog looks like more fun than Kilo 

If its just me and Sailor, or we are with Ace too, Sailor just runs for the other dog all the time.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

sailor said:


> I shall also look for this book !
> 
> I think Kilo is doing fab... I like it when he stops and you can see him stood there thinking... shall I go or not... then he does.. but then he comes back... then he stands thinking about it again, bless him
> 
> ...


If you want to meet soon, I'll lend it to you - then if I've moved before you have finished with it - post it back. I have Control Unleashed too if you want it? .


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Ref Long line

Get one as long as you can, and tie some knots in it- then instead of unclipping his lead just let it drop, so he drags it around with him, keep doing recalls etc, but if he does leg it- stand on it, then grab it so he can only get so far before he HAS to come back- recall as normal and huge fuss when he does come back. Works with Dex, but I have to make sure he does not do Warp speed, or get to far ahead of me that the long line is not within reach (squeeky toy!!!! is my friend).

This will of course only work if you are not a size 0!!!


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

TheFredChallenge said:


> Sailor; you sound like me. My 10 month Lab is proving a real challenge right now as it's not only the fact he wants to run off to other dogs but when trying to contain him (if he's on the lead and passing an interseting one) at 32 kg's it's *bloody hard work*. I go out with a happy PMA mind and by the end of the walk I'm so wound up cos my arms are so tired of the struggle. He is just so obsessed right now and I did read on here that at 9/10 months they're at the peak of testosterone and so I have a question for the experienced folk on here; do you think this is why it has suddenly got worse?
> 
> Some days I could cry as I have done everything to try and control situations and am training to the best of my ability....I'm not one of these people that don't really care less.
> He is going to a class now on a Saturday to mainly try and desensitise whilst being around other dogs but working with me and not playing during that hour. First week went fairly well to be fair but that's with cheesy treats and lots of!
> ...


Sounds very much like my Sailor indeed!

I cant even remember when he started to go downhill, but it was a steady downhill spiral, with having Children and little time to sit and ponder on the dogs behaviour... what was a little glitch in a behaviour, now suddenly is a minor problem that needs nipping in the but before it just gets out of hand altogther!

Sailor has two flaws out the home.... not recalling when his with new dogs and pulling on lead, mainly when seeing other dogs, obviously 

I am struggling with recall, but his pulling on the lead is calming down !!!

I brought a harness and padded short lead, this is to give me comfort more than anything. A lead on a collar, and I find Sailor panics and gets on edge, and the he just seems more heavy on the lead and my hands get rubbed red raw.
I used to find shortening the lead and telling Sailor in a stern voice... LEAVE IT... worked well, but recently he started to ignore that and even at times it seemed to make him get more on edge and try to lunge more ?
So I completely changed tactic with him and now I leave the lead as it is when he sees the other dog, so there is no sudden change, which I believe was starting to become his *cue* in a way. 
Instead of using a stern voice to tell him what to do .. I did the complete opposite and in a cheery voice, I say, COME ON SAILOR, GOOD BOY SAILOR! he will walk beside me, with little tension on the lead and he will prick his ear and stare at the other dog... but there is no strong pulling and no lunging!
He will then do something no wanted, like say, walk across my path to get a better view of the other dog, and I simply quicken my pace and again repeat COME ON SAILOR! GOOD BOY SAILOR! and gently directing him with the lead, to come back to my side and not walk under my feet.
The further away we get from the dog and the more relaxed Sailor becomes again, I start being silly with the voice lol

Good boy Sailor... hoooooows the bestest doggie in the world GOOD BOY SAILOR!! and I reach down to touch him... whether its a quick stroke of his ear/back etc if he stops and looks up at me, I give him bigger praises and he will sit down and raise a leg to get a decent rub across his rubs, which he loves lol

Dont give up, just try different methods and get some decent walking gear to take the strain out of your hands/arms! I couldnt stay happy and calm with Sailor at all, before I got the harness and padded lead, I honestly felt like crying at times because my hand was soo sore and the muscles in my arm were soo strained :scared: 
Not sure how long a positive mental attitude can be kept up when you feel like T rex is pulling your arms out your sockets lol


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Dogless said:


> If you want to meet soon, I'll lend it to you - then if I've moved before you have finished with it - post it back. I have Control Unleashed too if you want it? .


That would be fab  I could pick out the bits most suited to us and photocopy, so you wouldnt be too long with out your bibles 
If they are a success, I will go out and buy the books or my shelves at a later date!
We are good for a meet anytime you are, so long as it isnt tomorrow



Lexiedhb said:


> Ref Long line
> 
> Get one as long as you can, and tie some knots in it- then instead of unclipping his lead just let it drop, so he drags it around with him, keep doing recalls etc, but if he does leg it- stand on it, then grab it so he can only get so far before he HAS to come back- recall as normal and huge fuss when he does come back. Works with Dex, but I have to make sure he does not do Warp speed, or get to far ahead of me that the long line is not within reach (squeeky toy!!!! is my friend).
> 
> This will of course only work if you are not a size 0!!!


Fantastic tips there Lexie, thank you :thumbsup:
I honestly cant wait to get Sailor his longline, so he has more freedom and hopefully in time we will get some good recalls!

I spent this afternoon with Sailor off lead and I tried not to scan the horizon for other dogs, because I have noticed that Sailor actually scans the horizon with me  its as if he copies me  only he has better eye sight ... not to mention he can smell them before he sees them anyway!

We didnt see any dogs tho, so didnt even get chance to do any recalls, or even get hm on lead, so we could stalk others and try some nice steady greets.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

sailor said:


> That would be fab  I could pick out the bits most suited to us and photocopy, so you wouldnt be too long with out your bibles
> If they are a success, I will go out and buy the books or my shelves at a later date!
> We are good for a meet anytime you are, so long as it isnt tomorrow
> 
> ...


We are good for any day, text me or PM with when is best for you and we'll be there :thumbup:.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> What is the best recall training for a young adult dog, who is obsessed with dogs! Who has no interest in toys/food/praise when out walking... other dogs seem to be his biggest motivational reward, judging by the way he runs to greet them and the selective hearing while his playing


Steve Courtneys program below is your best bet, you will need to start it at the highest threshold distance your own dog shows interest in another dog.

Triangle Of Temptation - Australian Pure Bred Dog Forums - Dogz Online


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Roxy isn't particularly food motivated & wasn't fussed about toys too much but I was advised to try & get her interested in one toy whilst at home. I used a squeaky ball & basically looked like a mentalist as I played with it at home, squeaked it alot & treated it like it was the best thing ever!
> 
> She became more & more interested (she also did with other toys & now enjoys playing with them) but is now very interested in squeaky balls. she only gets to play with them very occassionally (as this keeps them as a treat & was initially costing me a fortune as she has to 'kill' them all!).
> 
> If I feel she is losing her focus on me & is getting distracted I get the squeaky ball out & this does get her back again - not 100% by any means but thjings have been much improved.


This is the super-treat principle and it can work for dogs that otherwise show no interest in their normal rewards when they are out of the home. The theory is that by keeping the treat exclusive to a single behaviour, you increase the value of the reward, hopefully to a point greater than the distractions that you are experiencing.

Your other option is to use what Sailor is already finding rewarding, ie, the other dog. Once you get used to the long line you can prevent him from approaching until he is acknowledging you, once you are happy that he is paying the proper attention you can then reward him instantly by moving closer to the object of his desire! This also teaches him that returning to you or not focusing on the distraction does not mean game over.



sailor said:


> I am going to get him a longline this weekend, it was my first thought... but not sure how to actually go about using the long line alongside training?
> Do I just cling onto it and if he goes to far, drag him back ?


You can either use it as a drag line as suggested or you can keep a hold of it and move with him, allowing him sufficient slack to go as he pleases, but still keeping control. A drag line is best used in wide open spaces where there is less chance of him getting himself tangled up. A 50ft takes a fair bit of handling, so practice somewhere easy first with plenty of space, put the end loop over your wrist as you would a normal lead and then make another loop of a metre or two to hold as a 'emergency brake'. If he hits the end of the line at full tilt it is going to hurt both you and him, so the emergency break allows you to slow him down before you both end up on the floor. Loop the rest of the line in your other hand and just pay out slack as he moves away or loop it back into your hand as he comes closer.



sailor said:


> We didnt see any dogs tho, so didnt even get chance to do any recalls, or even get hm on lead, so we could stalk others and try some nice steady greets.


That would be the best time to have been practising! I only ever practise recall when there is a better than average chance that it will work, every successful recall is a chance to reinforce the behaviour and make it stronger for when it is actually needed. I recall randomly during a walk and if it works he gets a big fuss and gets sent off to explore some more, if it doesn't work I stand perfectly still until he realise that we are not going anywhere and comes back anyway just to find out whats going on.



sailor said:


> I have even lay down onthe floor laughing and squealing, with toys and treats... he just ignored me and still ran off to find another dog


That wasn't ignorance, that was shame!!!


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## Shalize (Sep 19, 2011)

Distance control is a brilliant one. the instant down or emergency stop is brill. Have you tried a whistle? use at home to start with with no distractions, whistle, come treat. Then build up.

I am a great user of a long line (with knots in) it gives you a little bit of security. When you do recall training make sure it is on lead and walk backwards and say "come" and make a big fuss even if you do all the work. You've got to be more fun than the other dogs. So make yourself more fun! Silly noises, clapping hands ANYTHING.

You really should go to classes - it'll help you understand what I'm on about.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Steve Courtneys program below is your best bet, you will need to start it at the highest threshold distance your own dog shows interest in another dog.
> 
> Triangle Of Temptation - Australian Pure Bred Dog Forums - Dogz Online


The moment Sailor sees or smells another dog he is off!
There have been times when he has just bolted and I cant see a dog... but then realise there was a dog, in the middle of the thick trees on the edge of the field  or on the opposite side of the embankment that neither of us could over!

I had a quick read of the link, but will sit and read through it properly later when I have less distractions and more time!



Jasper's Bloke said:


> This is the super-treat principle and it can work for dogs that otherwise show no interest in their normal rewards when they are out of the home. The theory is that by keeping the treat exclusive to a single behaviour, you increase the value of the reward, hopefully to a point greater than the distractions that you are experiencing.
> 
> *That makes sense, I guess if Sailor knew that one treat wasnt readily avaible back home after the walk he would be more inclined to want it while out on a walk :thumbsup: he loves his sticks, well branches, so I will save that for walks alone!
> I have put his stick out of reach now, so by the weekend when I get the long line, he wont have seen his stick for a few days, should be interesting.*
> ...





Shalize said:


> Distance control is a brilliant one. the instant down or emergency stop is brill. Have you tried a whistle? use at home to start with with no distractions, whistle, come treat. Then build up.
> 
> I am a great user of a long line (with knots in) it gives you a little bit of security. When you do recall training make sure it is on lead and walk backwards and say "come" and make a big fuss even if you do all the work. You've got to be more fun than the other dogs. So make yourself more fun! Silly noises, clapping hands ANYTHING.
> 
> ...


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

*Sailor:

I think this is the best treat Saior will get while out! But once he has settled and is listening, the other owner and dog will have made a hasty retreat and its not easy to stalk other owners! 
Sailors seems to spot them from a fair distance away for example, so I could use the long line to recall him, get his attention then walk over, but by then they will have disapeared completely or seen me walking over and taken a different route to avoid us. Honestly the local field seems to be used mainly by over cautious/considerate owners. 
But I will continue to try and have other dogs as Sailors reward! I cant see him recalling to me before he greets a dog tho, because he seems to know when there is no lead, the quickest way to get his "reward" is to just run to it!*

If it helps, when we next meet I can come into the field at a different point to you when you have Sailor off lead and keep Kilo sat and on lead and you can practise? Not the best stooge ever as they know each other but maybe it's a start using Kilo as a reward? I can keep Kilo waiting with lots of treats .


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## Shalize (Sep 19, 2011)

lol more embarrassing when your dog pisses off on you leaving you with steam coming out of your ears. Whistles don't have to be boring...they just indicate what is wanted and then something fun happens..

Go on make a prat of yourself - if your one of those serious dog owners do you not wonder why four paws and a wiggly bum AND a tail make dogs more interesting......FUN FUN FUN do it!


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Dogless said:


> If it helps, when we next meet I can come into the field at a different point to you when you have Sailor off lead and keep Kilo sat and on lead and you can practise? Not the best stooge ever as they know each other but maybe it's a start using Kilo as a reward? I can keep Kilo waiting with lots of treats .


Great idea :thumbsup:
I enjoy our walks soo much and its rare for Sailor to stay beside me for soo long, as he does when walking with Kilo, so I just dont even stress about his training and recalls. Its only when Kilo goes and Sailor is running around looking for dogs to play with constantly that I start to think OMG his recall is utter sh!te and I am soo lame! 
Will defo make you and Kilo wait a mile away, then start the pain staking recall training! I will get a longline tomorrow so will have it ready for next meet  so should be easier and you wount have to stand in the corner all day depleting your treat stocs on Kilo while you watch me and Sailor running and walking back and forth.... not to mention watching the bizarre dancing whistling claping singing rituals that Shalize has kindly adviced I do 



Shalize said:


> lol more embarrassing when your dog pisses off on you leaving you with steam coming out of your ears. Whistles don't have to be boring...they just indicate what is wanted and then something fun happens..
> 
> Go on make a prat of yourself - if your one of those serious dog owners do you not wonder why four paws and a wiggly bum AND a tail make dogs more interesting......FUN FUN FUN do it!


I have to retrieve Sailor regardless at the moment, so its either just whistle a few times then retieve him myself with dignity intact, or make a complete prat of myself then still have to go and retrieve Sailor with the other owners worried I have escaped from somewhere :lol:
I have made a prat of myself in the past, but I was certain their was no one watching and the other owner was distracted by their own dog... they didnt ask if I was having a seizure when I went to get Sailor anyhow, so Im quite certain they didnt see me. Altho the leafs in my hair might have made them slightly suspicious :sosp:


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

sailor said:


> Great idea :thumbsup:
> I enjoy our walks soo much and its rare for Sailor to stay beside me for soo long, as he does when walking with Kilo, so I just dont even stress about his training and recalls. Its only when Kilo goes and Sailor is running around looking for dogs to play with constantly that I start to think OMG his recall is utter sh!te and I am soo lame!
> Will defo make you and Kilo wait a mile away, then start the pain staking recall training! I will get a longline tomorrow so will have it ready for next meet  so should be easier and you wount have to stand in the corner all day depleting your treat stocs on Kilo while you watch me and Sailor running and walking back and forth.... not to mention watching the bizarre dancing whistling claping singing rituals that Shalize has kindly adviced I do


Sounds like a plan :thumbup:. Will be worth it just to watch your rituals . I'll go early, give Kilo a play as he gets so excited at that park as we only ever go to see you, get him back on a lead and then....enter Sailor!! .


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## Shalize (Sep 19, 2011)

ah but if it gets you're dog back you'll think I'm a goddess! lmao


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Interesting that you say he has a favourite stick, my dog would go crazy for a stick and I would often pick up the closest one when we were approaching unknown dog because I knew that it would distract him. I recently got him a safestix and apart from being a brilliant toy it also gives him a job to do on a walk, he has to carry it himself although when I am carrying it I now have his full attention, even to the point that he will walk off lead past other dogs without leaving my side. Might be worth a try for Sailor.


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

safestix - right I'm off to buy one :thumbup:


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

I used a large kong on a rope with other things one defence drive aggressive dog, carrying the toy after you've raised the value intensity with play, (stick, ball, kong, anything) raises the trigger threshold of the behaviour you dont want but only whilst they have enough interest in the toy, if something of greater value to them stimulates them then the toy is forgotten.

So, toy carrying of a valued item does not change the behaviour, it does make the unwanted behaviour less valuable to the dog whilst the toy is of interest to it & may or may not desensitze the dog to the other stimulus.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Sounds like a plan :thumbup:. Will be worth it just to watch your rituals . I'll go early, give Kilo a play as he gets so excited at that park as we only ever go to see you, get him back on a lead and then....enter Sailor!! .


Uhuh the recall ritual dance as I have started to call it 
Got carried away earlier and went into some robot dance moves just for the sheer hell of it ... totally distracted from Sailor and ended up with the longline giving me friction burn across the back of the knees  managed to say fully concentrated after that tho lol



Shalize said:


> ah but if it gets you're dog back you'll think I'm a goddess! lmao


Indeed I will Godess Shalize ! So far tho... your not worshiped yet and no shrines have been set up 



Jasper's Bloke said:


> Interesting that you say he has a favourite stick, my dog would go crazy for a stick and I would often pick up the closest one when we were approaching unknown dog because I knew that it would distract him. I recently got him a safestix and apart from being a brilliant toy it also gives him a job to do on a walk, he has to carry it himself although when I am carrying it I now have his full attention, even to the point that he will walk off lead past other dogs without leaving my side. Might be worth a try for Sailor.


Sailor is very picky with his sticks! I cant just pick up randoms one on a walk.
I dug up a large old tree root from the garden which he loved and soon learnt the command "wheres stick?" ... he would run off in a panic searching for his stick, then be beyond excited when he found it, because he knew it meant play time!  Once we finally lost it we had to find another perfect stick, which was a large branch from recently felled trees in a wood!
But once that went missing! I ended up buying a fake rubber stick, not a branded safestix, just a cheap copy, but does the job!
So that has now been saved for recall rewards, but his still not actually interested in it when we are out of the home 



SleepyBones said:


> I used a large kong on a rope with other things one defence drive aggressive dog, carrying the toy after you've raised the value intensity with play, (stick, ball, kong, anything) raises the trigger threshold of the behaviour you dont want but only whilst they have enough interest in the toy, if something of greater value to them stimulates them then the toy is forgotten.
> 
> So, toy carrying of a valued item does not change the behaviour, it does make the unwanted behaviour less valuable to the dog whilst the toy is of interest to it & may or may not desensitze the dog to the other stimulus.


At the moment, this is a problem for Sailor, he is only interested in the toy/treat while he is at home and other dogs seem to be a much greater reward once outside, but I am certain given time, I can make other rewards be just as exciting! 
Theres no way I could get him to carry a toy, his just not interested enough!
When I throw the ball for Ace, Sailor will race up to it and beat Ace to it, but he wont pick it up... he just mouths at it, then runs off looking for another dog. little bugger!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Haven't read the whole thread as I don't have time, but have you tried premacking? I.e. using play as a reward? So, have dogs on a long line, separate, ask to SIT, and then say 'Go Play!'. The more you do this, the more they realise that your recall cue is the gateway to further play. Once your dog is coming back often on the long-line, introduce a new recall command (for around other dogs) and then progress to off-lead, after many sessions.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> At the moment, this is a problem for Sailor, he is only interested in the toy/treat while he is at home and other dogs seem to be a much greater reward once outside, but I am certain given time, I can make other rewards be just as exciting!


There is no greater intensity reinforcer (reward) for dogs than the relationship & interaction between the owner & dog & there is no greater reinforcer after the dog has performed a command properly than the reinforcer (reward) given in the direct interaction between the owner & dog combined with a release back into the environment command (the later in mixed ratio system). Toys, treats etc are classically conditioned training aids so their use & value is always limited and as often as not they are complicated in a training context, their value as a reinforcer in OB training (obedience) is both weak & limited in comparison to the owner/dog interaction at the point a reinforcer should be given, this does not apply to biddable, compliant dogs.

If a dog is brought up or OB (obedience) trained with being given a treat or toy as its MAIN first step reinforcer (reward) it creats a barrier between owner & dogs relationship when the dog is intent in doing something of its own (other dogs interest). That does not apply to genetically predisposed biddable dogs such as BCs and numerous others.

This is what Ian Dunbar thinks of training aids 
Quote - "_I am not a fan of gizmos of any kind...shock collars, metal collars, halters, harnesses, or clickers. I even feel that food as lures and rewards needs to be used sparingly for obedience training_".

Since he wrote that (2006) he has gone more against training aids because of the way they are used as aids & the fallout from their use.

Compare the emotional difference in the relationship between the 3 dogs (in vids below) and their owners at the points the dogs get to their owners, No1 & No2 had treats & toys used as their main reinforcers (reward). No 3 dog never had treats used at all or toys as a reinforcer for the recall command. The reinforcer for No3 dog was ALWAYS the interactions between the owner and dog and release back into the environment, (commonly called praise), but, praise as a reinforcer is also used within a technique  of reinforcer praise giveing, a pat on the head will not do it.

Compare the emotional reactions of the dogs towards their owners when they complete the recalls (these vid links are not put here as recall demos).

Dog No1 
off leash reliability with reward training - YouTube

Dog No2
Whistle recall - YouTube

Dog No3
Multiple Recalls From Chases, Different Species An Emergency & An Aggressive Incident. - YouTube

.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> There is no greater intensity reinforcer (reward) for dogs than the relationship & interaction between the owner & dog & there is no greater reinforcer after the dog has performed a command properly than the reinforcer (reward) given in the direct interaction between the owner & dog combined with a release back into the environment command (the later in mixed ratio system). Toys, treats etc are classically conditioned training aids so their use & value is always limited and as often as not they are complicated in a training context, their value as a reinforcer in OB training (obedience) is both weak & limited in comparison to the owner/dog interaction at the point a reinforcer should be given, this does not apply to biddable, compliant dogs.
> 
> If a dog is brought up or OB (obedience) trained with being given a treat or toy as its MAIN first step reinforcer (reward) it creats a barrier between owner & dogs relationship when the dog is intent in doing something of its own (other dogs interest). That does not apply to genetically predisposed biddable dogs such as BCs and numerous others.


Interaction between dog and owner, eg verbal praise/physical affection, is NOT a primary reinforcer for the vast majority of dogs, it is simply associated as a precursor to a more tangible reward. Anyone that believes that their dog is performing for them out of love or respect or any other human emotion is setting themselves up for a serious fall, dogs are not human and they do not have the same spectrum of emotional responses that we do.

In the case of your videos (Again? Really?) the emotional response that you are so proud of is not your dogs joy at your interaction, it is his happiness and relief at not receiving his usual jolt of electricity to his neck.

This is a quick video I did yesterday morning, not the best quality but it demonstrates how a toy can be re-engaged as a motivator. The toy has been discarded in favour of something more interesting (a scent in this case) and the dog is not paying attention to me.

Where's your stick? - YouTube


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Interaction between dog and owner, eg verbal praise/physical affection, is NOT a primary reinforcer for the vast majority of dogs, it is simply associated as a precursor to a more tangible reward. Anyone that believes that their dog is performing for them out of love or respect or any other human emotion is setting themselves up for a serious fall, dogs are not human and they do not have the same spectrum of emotional responses that we do.
> 
> In the case of your videos (Again? Really?) the emotional response that you are so proud of is not your dogs joy at your interaction, it is his happiness and relief at not receiving his usual jolt of electricity to his neck.
> 
> ...


We play 'where's your stick?' with a safestix too - gets Kilo every time :thumbup:.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

I can almost see the sense in a dog wanting to please the owner, because it has a good bond with its owner, but well, I have a great bond with my kids, but we get bored of sitting beside each other every day with nothing else to do :lol:

I do need to bond more with Sailor I think, because our walks have been more of just that a walk, so despite him "loving" me, he does need more stimulation and fun.

I am now working on his bonding with me while we walk... so he sees me as more than just his human going for a walk with him... but we are going for a walk together and it pays to stay close to me, because I can atleast try to be as fun as other dogs in the area.

So far, I think the bonding is working, but I wouldnt give up on the toys and treats just yet!

Sleepybones... I watched the vid of the Doberman and Im trying to stop Sailor from doing just that.... running full pelt away from me! Because it terrifies other dogs and other dog walkers lol but the dobe does have an impressive recall. Hope it isnt from electric shock collars tho :scared:
Id rather have a dog that comes to me because he has respect for me and enjoys my company, not because he is scared and doesnt like the punishment recieved if he doesnt listen to me.

So far Sailor is doing well!
Just about to take him on this lunch time walk for abit more bonding and hopefully less chasing


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## Mama Sass (Sep 8, 2009)

Had exactly the same issue with Basil for the whole of last winter. I was getting towards the end of my tether and thought I would have to keep him on a long line forever. :mad2:

But then two things happened: he hit eighteen months and seemed to calm down almost overnight. Hubby and I kept coming back from our walks, incredulous, saying things like 'he did as he was told today' and 'he just came away from the other dog when I called him'.

Second thing was that he spent a few days at the dog sitters here and there, we were getting him used to the place for when we went away. Anyway, there he met Meg, the maternal border collie, who taught Basil more about recall and dog's body language in half an hour than we had been able to all winter! The change in him was unbelievable and I would recommend taking your dog out with an older sensible dog if possible, it really does help.

Please perservere, be consistent with the training, make yourself fun to come back to and trust that he will eventually get over it - we did and I am so glad that we persevered because he is now a joy to walk. And I honestly thought we would NEVER get there!


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Mama Sass said:


> Had exactly the same issue with Basil for the whole of last winter. I was getting towards the end of my tether and thought I would have to keep him on a long line forever. :mad2:
> 
> But then two things happened: he hit eighteen months and seemed to calm down almost overnight. Hubby and I kept coming back from our walks, incredulous, saying things like 'he did as he was told today' and 'he just came away from the other dog when I called him'.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that Mama sass  Im soo glad to read Basil has calmed for you and you have had such good progress.

First of all I have an older mature dog, called Ace, who has taught Sailor a fair bit i certain areas. Ace has a lovely recall and on his own he is a pleasure to walk. But when we add Sailor to the walk, Sailor leads poor Ace as stray  and I end up with having Sailor chasing dogs being boisterous in play, with Ace chasing them around nipping at them and barking his paws off.

When Sailor meets other older mature dogs, they always get frustrated with him and tell him off alot, infact its all the do! Sailor will be bunding around them, being dominant over them, try to hump them etc a typical young giddy male. And if the other dog could eventually settle with Sailor and learn him anything, I find the owner gave up with in the first 5 seconds 

We have however had some really great progress with Sailor, just by doing things that help me and Sailor to bond on walks. 
Ive noticed in the last few days, Sailor is watching me more and he is even at times, just running back to me for a fuss and sits beside me ... altho as he sits beside me, he does have a sneaky scan of the horizon for other dogs :lol:
But on the whole he is doing fab!


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## Mama Sass (Sep 8, 2009)

sailor said:


> Thank you for that Mama sass  Im soo glad to read Basil has calmed for you and you have had such good progress.
> 
> First of all I have an older mature dog, called Ace, who has taught Sailor a fair bit i certain areas. Ace has a lovely recall and on his own he is a pleasure to walk. But when we add Sailor to the walk, Sailor leads poor Ace as stray  and I end up with having Sailor chasing dogs being boisterous in play, with Ace chasing them around nipping at them and barking his paws off.
> 
> ...


Ooops, sorry didn't realise you already had another dog! Is Sailor neutered? That can help with the exuberance too. Glad he's making progresss - it's difficult to bond with a dog when they can be so darn frustrating (soooo been there!) but it sounds as if he's doing brilliantly. It's always two steps forward and one back but keep the faith!

I think all of us that have had difficult 'teenage' dogs deserve a pat on the back for sticking with them - so many are rehomed aged 6 - 18 months because of issues such as these!


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

Mama sass you give me hope. At almost 11 monts now - 7 to go of the worst left!

:thumbup:


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