# Help! - strong lungeing Lab - halti/collar advice needed please



## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

Hi All,

Have read a couple of the old threads on collars (halti's), the dogmatic and gentle leader one but would like advice as what is best to suit me and our male Lab. He's generally a friendly and good boy but the excitement on walks sometimes (when he is on his lead) sometimes just gets too much, I get stressed and my arms are killing me when I get home.
If I'm stationary I can overcome this by a trick taught at dog class - which is stand on the metre lead (which I'm currently using; it's a quality 'Hunter' one - as I feel it's the safest to manage him with), we don't look at him, nor talk to him etc and it does work in that he doesn't have the leverage to jump up at the person I'm talking to and generally sits down after a few unsuccessful attempts.....but when I'm on the move and passing dogs or sometimes runners etc then it becomes difficult just through his sheer strength. He's 6 months now and still very much a puppy (despite being a big lad). We do try to walk to heel and he is pretty good when there's no distractions around, and obviously my 6 foot hubby finds him easier to control when he does play up....so I need the help mainly. Also to change direction and 'walk the other way' is not always an option - nor do I wish to manage it like this ideally.

Your fantastic advice is most welcome on how it's best to 'suit and boot' him up for walks.

Thank you,

GJ


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## keirk (Aug 9, 2010)

Don't buy a headcollar. Teach him not to lunge. 

What and how much do you feed him, and how much & what sort of exercise / training does he get?


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

I _*am*_ trying to teach him not to lunge - but that's easier said than done!!!! I always carry treats, try to distract etc....but that only works for so long and he'll want to get to the other dog....losing interest on treats no matter what I try.

Dried food, 26% protein, eats twice a day, weighed every week as just about every body has informed me of the weight issues....which I'm aware of anyway (and he is fine on that).....walked twice a day off lead and on (in fields, and countryside mainly)...around 40 mins each time but we do take him to more built up places as well.

He's a very sociable and friendly dog who wants to meet everyone (humans and dogs)....and there's lots around where we are. I want him to almost ignore things which I'm _hoping_ will start to happen as he ages.

I need further 'tools' to help.....not "teach him not to lunge" advice. He is also entering adolescence now; so all in all it's going to be a very trying time.


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## critter (Sep 14, 2010)

Hi, I don't use one personally, but, a lot of Dog owners I meet use the Halti and swear by it, I don't know how successful it would be in your case, but, surely worth a try!, I know that I overcame my dog's tendency to pull and lunge by the tried and tested changing direction method but as you've already said this is not for you perhaps other members have their own ideas on solving this problem. wayne.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

I would prefer if possible a good harness with front & top clip ideally that fits well, and is safety aid. I used a small or medium, Halti double clip harness on considerably smaller dog that was reactive spinning & lunging dangerously on standard lead and it helped very much.

That's an interim allowing you to safely work on polite walking. With such you can quite easily steer the dog round or stop, and as he appears keen to meet other dogs, and may need extra recall training the top clip can help when using a long lead.

Try and reward calm passing behaviour, using distance where possible to be able to reinforce success. Food reward may not be sufficiently reinforcing, dogs can lose interest, but enjoy play reward or praise; especially as they leave puppy phase. Probably the functional reward of greeting the dog would be a good one to use for things like recall or politely obedient behaviour.

Head collars whilst popular, have drawbacks - needing habituation, in lunging dog the neck is vulnerable. The big advantage being able to gently turn an aggressive dogs head away from passing dogs so it does not fixate would not appear to apply in your case.


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

Thanks Wayne, I'm not a great lover of the Halti type affairs either...but I've got to try a different method. It would all be soooo much easier if he wasn't a lab! These are the times you wish you'd bought a weeny dog :wink: I don't even know if it's too late and it won't make a difference anyway to the pulling behaviour......but we'll see what others advise.

Thanks


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I use the halti on my youngest dog if I know we're walking somewhere with dogs, the more and more we walk past them without letting him say hello the less he is lunging. HE has the halti on otherwise I won't have control over him.

Another month I think and I'll start taking it off to walk past dogs, at the moment he's doing great and will walk loosely on a lead except with other dogs


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

Yes....I can try and work on the distance idea Rob, thanks. Thinking about it we're not getting much opportunity to ignore things as we pass them with distance involved because it's usually a very near scenario and the dogs can touch etc. I would have to keep him on the lead though for this as he'll be off over to them if he wasn't....but I'll def work on this.


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

Yes, it doesn't help Nicole when other dog owners just let their dogs run up to you as you're trying to carry out training to just ignore and walk on past. This has just happened with a large male Visla this afternoon.......it even got growly with Fred so I told the owner it should be on a lead!!!! Letting a dog that *is* going to approach another dog (that is leaded) whilst the other is off is naughty in my book. Fine if their dog isn't interested in going up to a leashed dog - but rude on the owners part me thinks.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

TheFredChallenge said:


> Yes....I can try and work on the distance idea Rob, thanks. Thinking about it we're not getting much opportunity to ignore things as we pass them with distance involved because it's usually a very near scenario and the dogs can touch etc. I would have to keep him on the lead though for this


The sticky on getting your dogs attention may help to! http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/18620-all-those-dogs-who-lack-attention-obsessed-other-dogs.html#post347869
Perhaps you can do tug with a fetch ball on rope or something, to be an attention getter?

With the GR I walk weekly now, and occasionally every week day, he tends to decide to greet dogs without an OK, I found he was amenable though, but simply avoiding boredom due to relatively fast progress (cycle plus Border Collie) helped me get a grip on it. It was quite funny as with us, he picked up sheepdog commands like "C'm by" and did a nice veer away from a Labradoodle last time I took him out.

I've used premacking idea with him, I know he loves to swim, so I reward a good recall with dashing to the beach. I also tried to get close to the action, should there be a dog he might greet off own bat. He's definitely improved and his owners are working with him, lately switching to liver cake has increased the reinforcement effect of food rewards apparently to. I actually don't treat the dog that much, the activities are rewarding in themselves.

Now in general, I am very relaxed about dogs socialising & greeting, my pup met very many dogs, and he gets to choose now with off leash dogs; very often he is ignoring them because he's a Collie and is just wangling working for me all the time. But at arrival at Agility it's different, and he's very sociable.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> I would prefer if possible a good harness with front & top clip ideally that fits well, and is safety aid. I used a small or medium, Halti double clip harness on considerably smaller dog that was reactive spinning & lunging dangerously on standard lead and it helped very much.
> 
> That's an interim allowing you to safely work on polite walking. With such you can quite easily steer the dog round or stop, and as he appears keen to meet other dogs, and may need extra recall training the top clip can help when using a long lead.
> 
> ...


I agree. Although I use a dogmatic on Ferdie it is for back up only, as he is not a puller and only takes off with me if he sees another dog to talk to. I can stop him with the dogmatic, but if your dog pulls as much as you say, then the front clip harness would probably be more comfortable for both of you.

From what I have read, the headcollar can cause damage on a really determined puller and he will spend most of his walk trying to get it off, even if it is habitualised. Once he has learned to walk nicely with the harness, you could use a double ended lead and either a dogmatic or the harness clipped to one end, collar clipped to the other. That way you have back up just in case.


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

Thanks Rob...just read that other thread. I've always got treats on me (other dogs always come to check me out due to this, but as instructed they never get anything). I take his squeeky tennis ball out with us too (as an attention getter) but he is a funny one as far as games go. Our last dog was ball mad and would play till he was shattered and beyond but Fred has to be in the right mood and we've got allsorts of toys here to try and find the 'magic' one!!! We can have success sometimes of a few mins of fetching and retrieving of an item and then other times it's us going and fetching it as he just sits there thinking - nah, can't be bothered!!!! We'll xchange the toy (that sometimes works) and we also rotate his toys indoors.

Your post was amusing....we used to speak Welsh to our Springer with a couple of commands and he picked that up well.......may be I should try speaking German to our Fred as that's his history!! .........with us living in Germany of course.

Anyway we will perservere....I tend to dwell on the bad bits not the lovely nice bits and the good things he can do. He was a very hard pup but it has eased alot since the early days. I just need to be able to control and feel happy about a possible 35kg dog on the end of my lead - arghhh.  

Thanks for your help.


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## Guest (May 20, 2011)

The lunging sounds pretty bad! and personally I would not use any kind of head collar for this, Have you tried a straight forward sliplead(gundoglead)?


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## PennyH (Dec 30, 2008)

Try a Gencon on him.
We have a Springer x lab and she could pull me over (no mean feat believe me!!!) but with a Gencon a 2 year old could walk her.
They are absolutely brilliant and although they don't train your dog not to pull or lunge, at least they save your arms whilst you are putting in the hard work of training.
I think they are fantastic!


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

Thanks both, I'll take a look.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

A front clip harness, along with the training you are already doing, should work a treat. I stopped using a gentle leader because I was worried about the effect lunging would have on his neck and switched to a premier easy walk, great bit of kit. When he was smaller he pulled over a 15 stone adult in pursuit of a squirrel but now my 6 year old can walk him. 

Finding the ideal distraction is just a matter of trial and error, for the really tough distractions food is rarely the answer. I can usually get by with a good stick or a tennis ball but everyone us different and they do have their fads don't they? Perhaps try keeping one toy exclusively for the purpose, one extra special treat that he only gets under specific circumstances, ie calm behavior around other dogs. That might help to raise its value. Good luck.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Gencon - seen it in action on a hyper dog, stunning result in seconds

Food - 26% protein, suggest weaning him onto adult to assist his high energy levels


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

Hi thanks for that....he's not actually a hyper dog......it's hard to explain on here really and sometimes it's easy to portray the wrong message of what he's like!!!.......he's just so friendly he wants to go meet people/dogs we see when walking. If we talk to the people because we know them; then it makes it more of an attraction to go see them as far as he's concerned. There is no aggression/dominance (as yet and hopefully it will stay as such) in his behaviour just merely if he decides to want to go one way or over to something/somebody; then he's a handful to manage......for me anyway.

His food is a good quality (and not stupidly expensive Germany brand) and the breeder recommended that....as she's done with all her previous pups....so I won't be changing that till he's 12 months. I've already researched the next one of the same brand....dropping the protein down to 22%.

I've seen the Gencon's now and may look at getting one if we don't improve.

Many thanks for your replies


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Rather than being a determined puller, then, is he like my dog and only pulls when he wants to go greet someone? If that is the case, you could use a dogmatic with a double ended lead like I do. One end attaches to the dogmatic, under his chin, the other to his collar. The headcollar only comes into play when he wants to take off. Otherwise he walks nicely with just the collar end, if you see what I mean.


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## pearl Button (May 12, 2011)

Imo the Gencon is the best but you do still need to work on your focus to stop the lunging. Becareful with tug games when you have a dog that lunges as in my experience, it excited my dog into become more manic. I practice the watch command and get the dogs attention before the excitement/lunging starts. I had not hope with a body harness as she would whirl and it felt like I had a croc handbag and NO control. The gencon has allowed me to fell in control enough to get the focus training going. Good Luck


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

I see nothing wrong with you using a headcollar, or though I would think one which has an independent nose strap like the canny collar may be easier if he tries to swat it off.

My golden retriever was in a canny collar by about six months and I will defend that action til my dying day to all those who said 'teach him not to lunge' 

You try teaching one of the greediest breeds of dog not to lunge in the road at roadkill at 6 months of age, its a hell of a lot safer to stick them in a headcollar where you have some level of control IMO. My golden had me in the road before and I wasn't willing to risk his or my safety. Even now at 30kgs he could have me over if he yanked at the right moment and unbalanced me, I'm 5'9 so its not like I'm particularly petite either.

I don't, however think its right to use a headcollar if the dog continually pulls on it but you wont know that until you try. I would never intend to use one for the duration of the dog's life either unless like newfiesmum's situation.

Rupert can walk perfectly to heel, by about 14 months he had grown out of the roadkill situation and his brain engaged before his belly so that I was walking him on a slip lead to heel perfectly.

We have moved house and live somewhere very residential now so I've changed how I walk him. If he is going through the local reserve I put his canny collar on him because we have some not very nice dogs and he does like to play me up a bit round there at the minute. Anywhere else he is either not walking to heel so I don't need a short lead or I have him on a flat collar and lead.

So I have used a headcollar, but my dog is more than capable of walking to heel and IMO we were both AT RISK by not using a canny collar, it offered sufficient control for the times needed. Just like if I had a dog who lunged at people or cyclists on a walk in excitement, I would canny collar them until their brain engaged first and thought ooh I'm not allowed to do that. When very young and excitable they have so little capacity to be 'in the zone' and behave how you want, its all a learning curve. As long as you intend to use it as a stopgap and not a permanent solution on a young dog I don't think there is anything wrong with it.


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

Thank you for your advice and suggestions Golden Shadow; always good to hear people who have HAD the experiences of an eager dog (shall we say!!!)


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> I see nothing wrong with you using a headcollar,
> ...
> You try teaching one of the greediest breeds of dog not to lunge in the road at roadkill at 6 months of age, its a hell of a lot safer to stick them in a headcollar where you have some level of control IMO


A dog that lunges, means you are reacting, turning head and relatively fragile neck. When if you're controlling the head, it should be proactive, eg) avoid pulling and stop a dog glaring from a distance to work on sociability.

A head collar can work, but so can the alternative safe walking system using a harness with front clip. Often dogs try and get head collars off when they have a chance, unless they've been habituated to wearing them.

Furthermore you do not have the same ability to work with long line on head collar, allowing the dog to recall from a distance.


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## pearl Button (May 12, 2011)

The Gencon does Not turn the dogs head to the side which is why I have found it the most effective. Saying that you quite rightly point out a dog should not be worked at a distance with a head collar of any kind! Then Gencon attaches at the back of the head in a simular place to a collar.


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## edidasa (May 7, 2011)

i'm prob going to get some negativity to what im about to say, however - I believe in what is best, in terms of effectiveness.

try the head collars/special harnesses and see if they work first.
if not, 
get yourself a prong collar and a good trainer that knows how to PROPERLY use one.

i had a client with a very distracted 6 month lab and we used this. (he had 4 months of positive reinf. training though) 30 mins later, no pulling/jumping around dogs people anything- few weeks, the lab no longer uses the prong, on a normal standard flat collar - 100% under control and the owners (wife included + 4 yr old walking a 26kg dog) enjoy their walks with an incredibly well behaved dog.

collar condition too - should be done no matter what equipment you use.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

This video explains why collars with aversive effects don't work very well (in autopsy 48/50 German choke chain dogs had evidence of neck trauma), prongs are definitely safer; but the benefits of systematically working as shown in following video ought to be clear.

Training a dog not to lunge at distractions eg) food on pavement [URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY7JrteQBOQ]YouTube - kikopup's channel - Barking- Episode 3 - barking on a walk -dog training


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

edidasa said:


> i'm prob going to get some negativity to what im about to say, however - I believe in what is best, in terms of effectiveness.
> 
> try the head collars/special harnesses and see if they work first.
> if not,
> ...


How to use a prong collar PROPERLY? Let's see now - I suppose it might be handy for tying up fallen tree branches or strapping the bin down somehow so the dog or kids don't get at it.

The only proper use for a prong collar is around the neck of someone who would suggest putting one on a dog.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> A dog that lunges, means you are reacting, turning head and relatively fragile neck. When if you're controlling the head, it should be proactive, eg) avoid pulling and stop a dog glaring from a distance to work on sociability.
> 
> A head collar can work, but so can the alternative safe walking system using a harness with front clip. Often dogs try and get head collars off when they have a chance, unless they've been habituated to wearing them.
> 
> Furthermore you do not have the same ability to work with long line on head collar, allowing the dog to recall from a distance.


Excuse me, you've sat here and assumed x, y and z all of which you know nothing of from the looks of your above post which is incorrect. Yes this is a post where I am going to come across as very cross, but I really dislike it when people comment on areas they have obviously not researched or dish out offence so randomly.

The canny collar not turn the head at ALL you have control from the back of the head and the pressure goes across the muzzle FROM BEHIND. So you are commenting on a headcollar you obviously have not seen, which isn't right IMO.

Do you honestly think I would sit here and recommend a canny collar if it was the only item I tried? I tried harnesses, and believe me all failed miserably. I used a halti harness, a lupi harness and a conventional harness on its own and with his normal lead as a 'back up' if I needed to grab him and none of them helped in the slightest. I spent god knows how much on this that and the other the canny collar was the last one I tried because everything else (including halti, gentle leader, half check collar, flat collar, the three harnesses I mentioned) had failed miserably. Did you also know (or have you not tried these also?!) that using a harness makes it incredibly difficult to get a dog to walk to heel because their body wants to be level with your leg as opposed to their shoulder? I feel many are actually detrimental to heel work, definitely was for us he wanted to be 6 inches further in front in a harness.

Now where did I say anything about a headcollar on a lunge line?! _Nowhere_. If you read any of my posts on here you will see my dog has never ever had a headcollar on when doing distance work and he never would. It makes me really very cross that you make it sound as though I use a long line on a damn head collar just because I've used a headcollar in the past (I am 'assuming' back seeing as you gave no further information and it was written in response to a quoted message by myself) 

Its a TEMPORARY solution, which means a lot of the time people don't even use them every walk, half the time I'd take mine with me and not use it. Stop assuming things you do not know about and research them to find out for goodness sake.

In case you want to continue labelling me as someone who might cause severe damage to her dog by using a lunge line on a head collar, this is what he actually gets walked on when being lunged 

Ooh look, no headcollar!









Oh wow, no headcollar here too!









WHAT?! No headcollar again?! As if anyone would actually use one responsibly 









This is a canny collar and how it works is from BEHIND the head, no turning involved











pearl Button said:


> The Gencon does Not turn the dogs head to the side which is why I have found it the most effective. Saying that you quite rightly point out a dog should not be worked at a distance with a head collar of any kind! Then Gencon attaches at the back of the head in a simular place to a collar.


I know nothing of then Gencon really, but the canny definitely does not turn the head at all either.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Prongs were discussed at length (and acrimoniously at times) in the thread http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/150472-self-correction-collar.html
In links posted by tripod there's references to articles on connection between aversive (forceful correctional techniques) and aggression in dogs.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Excuse me, you've sat here and assumed x, y and z all of which you know nothing of from the looks of your above post which is incorrect


Excuse me! I quoted what I was referring to, the statment you made to the OP "I see nothing wrong with you using a headcollar".

I've also taken trouble to find example of how to positively train a dog prone to lunging against the distractions in subsequent post, following on other comments.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Excuse me! I quoted what I was referring to, the statment you made to the OP "I see nothing wrong with you using a headcollar".
> 
> I've also taken trouble to find example of how to positively train a dog prone to lunging against the distractions in subsequent post, following on other comments.


There is nothing wrong with using a headcollar as a TEMPORARY solution, which is what I actually explained throughout my post. So I don't know where you pulled the idea that I advocate a lunge line on a headcollar from :nonod:

I don't think you can positively train very young dogs who's stomach jumps in before they have chance to engage their brain. I am 100% confident nothing except avoiding walking near roads or a 'gadget' would have stopped Rupert putting both his and my own life in danger. Just like the dog in question is lunging, sounds to me like pure excitement and something you need to work on in time, you can't fix it in a matter of days its a long process to fully establish that its not an acceptable behaviour with such a young dog and IMO letting them jump around lunging at people whilst trying to fix it isn't good enough, they need to be under your control 100% the time meaning when you expose them to such situations where they display the behaviour you do not want, you have control of that scenario to manage their behaviour properly.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> There is nothing wrong with using a headcollar as a TEMPORARY solution, which is what I actually explained throughout my post


I'll repeat what I said before, many people are recommending harnesses because they're easier to use correctly and do not require the same habituation. These comments are general ones, and not judging what ever you did with your dog or the particular system you used.

The OP mentioned some head collars which are not of Gencon design specifically Halti Gentle Leader for example.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> I'll repeat what I said before, many people are recommending harnesses because they're easier to use correctly and do not require the same habituation. These comments are general ones, and not judging what ever you did with your dog or the particular system you used.


I know I'm a bit OTT this morning but it doesn't change my opinion, I may just be coming across a bit more angry today.

I do not feel harnesses are easier, honest I don't. All they did for Rupert was make him want to walk with his body level with me which isn't to heel, and even now he has a tendancy to sidle those few inches further away because I think of how long I tried out the halti harness (which was useless for him, soon as he pulled to something the chest strap loosened so much he had a ridiculous amount of space away from me should he pull/lunge to something in the road).

I will say I think the halti is rubbish, I think the gentle leader, is rubbish, I think the canny collar is really quite good. I have tried all three so feel I can judge, the first two just create resistance and to be honest in instances where the dog is causing danger I really do think the canny collar is fantastic. I wouldn't use it long term because to me the idea of a thin strap pressing down on quite a sensitive area isn't particularly pleasant, but for my dog I much preferred that than having us both hauled into the road. Plus he was never an avid puller, just OMG I want that squished rabbit over there.

I made the mistake of letting the dog walker walk him in his canny a couple times and he went through a phase of just not enjoying going out if it was on his canny, I think she probably used it really quite roughly and he just had a big issue with it. Because of the pressure on the muzzle you mustn't be hard with it but having a retriever myself I really, really can't see a harness and positive reinforcement helping eagerness to greet. My boy grew out of it out on walks and accepted he isn't allowed to meet everyone and every thing, but he is still very much like it in the house if people let him.

I would never want to use one long term, I'm the sort of person who feels a failure if I have to ride a horse in different bits for different occasions and can't have them in a nice gentle snaffle, but needs must at times and I would never use a gadget with the intention of it being a permanent solution, just a tool to manage situations until the behaviour is as desired.

Plus, by 'mixing it up a bit' in what he's walked on I think he pays that bit more attention to me on a walk because he doesn't know what signal he's looking for to be redirected to heel.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> I do not feel harnesses are easier, honest I don't. All they did for Rupert was make him want to walk with his body level with me which isn't to heel


Heeling needs (hopefully positive) training so it works with any leash & restraint system, or indeed off leash 
In fact finding the right spot, heel training off leash with the dog volunteering to work is my favourite! I had to work on reactivity issues first, before worrying overly about heel however. It's pointless worrying about few inches here & there, when the dog is fearful of traffic for example; or you as handler cannot keep the dog going past distractions like food when you & dog are "working".


> I made the mistake of letting the dog walker walk him in his canny a couple times and he went through a phase of just not enjoying going out if it was on his canny, I think she probably used it really quite roughly and he just had a big issue with it


That's the sort of thing that leads to preference for a front clip harness, where the trainer/walker may not be as careful as you are. I see some women be astonishingly rough with large Labs on choke chains for example, I would not trust these people with a head collar on a dog I owned, they're just too used to using body weight forcefully; I suspect their husbands might rethink if they saw a film of what was happening to.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Heeling needs (hopefully positive) training so it works with any leash & restraint system, or indeed off leash
> In fact finding the right spot, heel training off leash with the dog volunteering to work is my favourite! I had to work on reactivity issues first, before worrying overly about heel however. It's pointless worrying about few inches here & there, when the dog is fearful of traffic for example; or you as handler cannot keep the dog going past distractions like food when you & dog are "working".
> 
> That's the sort of thing that leads to preference for a front clip harness, where the trainer/walker may not be as careful as you are. I see some women be astonishingly rough with large Labs on choke chains for example, I would not trust these people with a head collar on a dog I owned, they're just too used to using body weight forcefully; I suspect their husbands might rethink if they saw a film of what was happening to.


I am aware of what you say as we have a dog who is afraid of near on everything (he's just a big girl's blouse ) and as long as he's not yanking your arm out he's doing fine. But with my golden, he will be 3 in August and is more than capable of walking to heel which is why I nag over a few inches here and there, its well within his capabilities 

Problem is whilst you can probably make errors with a canny, I think unless you are as diligent with a harness you wont get as good a result. My concern with a harness is its too easy to dump a dog in one and leave them in it for life. I know lots of people with big dogs who are three or four still in a harness because I don't think they actually know how to walk to heel but the harness 'stops them' from pulling the owner over in eagerness to get going.

I do hate the way people use a gadget and instead of training just use it and use it and use it. I would have never used any if Rupert didn't go for roadkill and they do need to know how to walk properly without one not by being corrected as they walk which is basically what they all do. My ex boyfriend's parents had an eight year old standard poodle who couldn't walk to heel, he was in a choke chain last I knew


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> I do hate the way people use a gadget and instead of training just use it and use it and use it


I totally agree! I see so many head collar dogs around my area, and very little sign of rewards based training of them, once their owner feels in control. Even unconcern when their dog is showing signs of distress in the head collar and trying to remove it 

It's also a shame all the little dogs in harnesses that just get pulled around, rather than lead in the way a larger dog must be.

In one VS show, having recommended a head collar, she was able to change her mind, saying it wasn't working, rather than persist to try to justify a recommendation, such flexibility is to be admired rather than dwell on the product choice not working out in practice.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> I totally agree! I see so many head collar dogs around my area, and very little sign of rewards based training of them, once their owner feels in control. Even unconcern when their dog is showing signs of distress in the head collar and trying to remove it
> 
> It's also a shame all the little dogs in harnesses that just get pulled around, rather than lead in the way a larger dog must be.
> 
> In one VS show, having recommended a head collar, she was able to change her mind, saying it wasn't working, rather than persist to try to justify a recommendation, such flexibility is to be admired rather than dwell on the product choice not working out in practice.


Funnily enough on Britain's Got Talent on Saturday a woman had two chihuahuas and was dragging one who just didn't want to go walkies onto the stage 

The amount of 'gadgets' about I think lots of people do see them as permanent solutions, I'd like to say its a bit of a fad but I don't think it is sadly. They should be an aid to training and nothing more, a bit like stabilisers on a bike you shouldn't need them if you know how to ride a bike properly.


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## pearl Button (May 12, 2011)

Them chihuahuas looked rather over weight to do much at all! or is it just me?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

pearl Button said:


> Them chihuahuas looked rather over weight to do much at all! or is it just me?


I've only ever seen short hairs so I'm not really sure what they should look like, but my friend thought they looked quite porky. Definitely not up for it one of them though, got dragged on stage poor mite 

This one wasn't it?


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## keirk (Aug 9, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> The amount of 'gadgets' about I think lots of people do see them as permanent solutions, I'd like to say its a bit of a fad but I don't think it is sadly. They should be an aid to training and nothing more, a bit like stabilisers on a bike you shouldn't need them if you know how to ride a bike properly.


Considering your arguing over the use of a head collar vs a harness - this statement is surprising.


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## pearl Button (May 12, 2011)

umm I would go as far as saying obese by the way their front legs are splayed apart! Sorry didnt mean to Hijack going now


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

keirk said:


> Considering your arguing over the use of a head collar vs a harness - this statement is surprising.


I think the point she is trying to make is that gadgets such as headcollar and harnesses should be used to assist management of the situation, whilst training is going on, not as a permanent solution.

I agree with her entirely. It is not always as easy as you may think to persuade a determined puller to walk to heel, especially one who has been allowed to pull since puppyhood. A headcollar particularly can be used as a management tool, whilst the other end of the lead is attached to the dog's collar, making heel walking easier to train. You are not going to get much response from a dog who is not interested in what treats you may have and is self rewarding by running ahead and pulling you with him, particularly if the dog is much stronger than you.

I have no experience of a harness, so won't comment, but I should imagine that the same principle applies, used in conjunction with an ordinary collar.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

keirk said:


> Considering your arguing over the use of a head collar vs a harness - this statement is surprising.


As a temporary aid, I find a canny collar a lot more useful than I do a harness. Don't see how that's surprising. I just think using them for eternity loses point, its meant to be an aid not a solution to a problem.


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

Yikes - all getting a bit heated!! but thank you *all* for your suggestions and comments......I'm liking the look of the Gencon if we do try one of the very many 'gadget's' out there. It would only be temporary as I too dislike any facial interferring on the dogs part and it's only whilst he is so keen to greet others during late puppyhood as it is now. Not trying to stop him meeting other dogs either but I just want to make him 'think' before he pulls to get to the attraction and drag me with him. I'm not quite (as yet) one of these people you see getting pulled all over the place in an amusing oh my god...thank god our dog isn't like that - kind of way but as he increases in weight and size with age I want to try and nip this in the bud....NOW.

:wink5::001_unsure:


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## shells (Jan 16, 2011)

i have a 4yr old lab who wasnt walked much if it all so was hopeless on the lead pulling terrible i use the halti for him and it is fab stopes all the pulling and gives my wrists a break


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