# Diplomatic debate on how to educate a member with a moggie pregnancy



## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Hiya, thought we could maybe try this and see what we can all come up with something to try and get important information across to new/members dealing with a moggie pregnancy and maybe even new/members that haven't yet spayed/neutered their cats. I was thinking maybe we could all collaborate and compress the information into a thread in an organised manner later and maybe request that it be stickied in both the breeding section and cat chat? Just an idea! I keep going on about politely educating people and would like to put the arguing to better use  It would be lovely if you could all take some time to debate here and contribute and we can see what happens. Hopefully by the end of it we'll have alot of good information to sticky that we can link to in threads about cat pregnancy.

Edit: There's no point saying 'there shouldn't BE a moggie pregnancy' as it isn't constructive in this case.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I think there are too many situations to have one 'plan' for all.

There are people who delib breed moggies, litters through negligent pet ownership, those who take on ferals/strays who are already pregnant etc.

There is also the issue of when to spay a pregnant female. Some people are dead against it, some people think it is fine. So theres another bone of contention.

I am of the opinion that if you decide not to take advice because it was presented in an abrupt way, then you are being selfish and wouldnt have taken the advice anyway. Many people simply want the cute fluffy kittens, and dont care what people think. Whilst the advice given may not be what people want to hear, it is most often accurate. It really needs to be seen that is is NOT ok to have an ooops litter, even if you promise to spay afterwards. That whole thing of, if every cat has one litter, and her kits have one litter etc etc etc.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I have thought about this Gratch and mentioned it tonight to another member..


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Good that some of us are on the same page then! Hopefully this will get the ball rolling. gloworm*mushroom the idea is to hopefully incorporate all situations and section them out neatly in a new thread when the time comes for ease of information.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

10 years ago there were always ads for kittens, now its hard to find kittens here, moggies anyway and they are my fav. Although we have cat rescues here not many are kittens. I had my last litter of moggies 16 years ago or more as my oldest cat is 16 and she wasn't one of mine I had to look hard for a kitten, my dogs only accept kittens not adult cats when they are strange to them. So I will watch and read this thread but can not contribute as pedigree cats are rather unheard of around my part of Alberta


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I like your thinking.. I also think yes you can read loads of info on a website..

But when OP comes on with questions.. you could just post the link.. then if they have more questions or need some more help there is usually someone here happy to do so.. I also think the final thread should be locked and easy to reach.. 
But if it does need adding to over time that this can be done..


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I think there are too many situations to have one 'plan' for all.


Seriously? Are you kidding? Every single thread about a pregnant moggie or some moggie kittens devolves into this very debate. Gratch doesn't appear to be saying "let's make a thread where we present one point of view". She's actually trying to condense the constant circus of the same arguments into one concise place where someone who has a pregnant moggie can go and read and weigh the advice in one place---she's not asking for one plan, she's asking for education and we should all know that education is not one point of view slapped into your head until you cave under the weight of it.

The fact that everyone says the same stuff over and over and then the OPs don't take the advice happens in all of those threads, but it doesn't stop anyone from saying their peace (as it shouldn't). But to dismiss out of hand an idea to make this a civilized exchange and forum within the forum to educate is a bit short sighted.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Well, in that case, every thread on moggy breeding should have a post saying.

Take her to the vet. Take her to the vet if she has trouble birthing. Then get her spayed before she gets pregnant again. End of discussion.

I may seem overly harsh on people who breed irresponsibly, but, thats fine by me. What else is there to say except look after the current kittens then spay her so she doesnt have to do it again? If that is what you want the 'one plan' to be.

All I was saying is, I dont look as harshly on those who take in preg strays. I do look harshly on those who irresponsibly let their cats get pregnant, and I dont necessarily think those people need the same advice and education given to them. Some people NEED sense slapping into them, as harsh as it may seem.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Wasn't that long ago that I asked for something similar: http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/144992-idea-sticky-perhaps.html though perhaps i approached it with a slightly different slant


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Hobbs....that link to your previous thread is broken, I cannot view it.
I think this is a great idea Gratch, maybe presenting the info in a series of FAQ so that visitors can get the necessary information delivered in an impartial way.


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

But don't people want 'personal' advise? They've had every chance to google and search on here, but they still want to come and ask 'their' question as in their view it's different from everyone elses. When people post a link on these sort of questions the OP is perhaps unlikely to read the link because they want personal advice to their own situation, not a cut and paste 'non-personal' reply.They don't see themselves as the irresponsible moggy owner, the person who could have their queen aborted, the person who allowed an 'accident' to happen etc etc etc so won't see themselves and the answer in the link

Just MHO from a million previous pregnant cat threads


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Paddypaws said:


> Hobbs....that link to your previous thread is broken, I cannot view it.
> I think this is a great idea Gratch, maybe presenting the info in a series of FAQ so that visitors can get the necessary information delivered in an impartial way.


It's fixed!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Gratch said:


> Hiya, thought we could maybe try this and see what we can all come up with something to try and get important information across to new/members dealing with a moggie pregnancy and maybe even new/members that haven't yet spayed/neutered their cats. I was thinking maybe we could all collaborate and compress the information into a thread in an organised manner later and maybe request that it be stickied in both the breeding section and cat chat? Just an idea! I keep going on about politely educating people and would like to put the arguing to better use  It would be lovely if you could all take some time to debate here and contribute and we can see what happens. Hopefully by the end of it we'll have alot of good information to sticky that we can link to in threads about cat pregnancy.
> 
> Edit: There's no point saying 'there shouldn't BE a moggie pregnancy' as it isn't constructive in this case.


My poor lil brain has gone round and round in circles in an effort to add something constructive and worthwhile to this thread, without sending it into another heated debate. I think, Gratch, there are two distinctly separate issues - prevention and what to do afterwards if you didn't manage to prevent 'it' happening in the first place.

In all sincerity it (the 'it' being, say, a sticky to cover the time someone discovers their cat is pregnant to the time the kittens go to their new homes) is such a big subject I wouldn't know where to start (or end) without it turning into a book; it feels a little overwhelming and I think that may be the case with why people here who do have experience of cat pregnancy/birthing/raising kittens/etc didn't respond in numbers to Hobbs' original idea.. it just feels a little daunting, though I do think it's a great idea for a sticky. Perhaps people here could add a small section of their own, covering each stage of the process, though as we frequently see, opinions vary widly which, in themselves, are often the cause of heated disagreements here.

I think the one thing we'd all be in general agreement on is how to prevent your cat becoming pregnant in the first place so may I respectfully suggest two separate (possible) stickies, with the 'prevention' one first as we all know that's better than cure


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Doolally said:


> But don't people want 'personal' advise? They've had every chance to google and search on here, but they still want to come and ask 'their' question as in their view it's different from everyone elses. When people post a link on these sort of questions the OP is perhaps unlikely to read the link because they want personal advice to their own situation, not a cut and paste 'non-personal' reply.They don't see themselves as the irresponsible moggy owner, the person who could have their queen aborted, the person who allowed an 'accident' to happen etc etc etc so won't see themselves and the answer in the link
> 
> Just MHO from a million previous pregnant cat threads


I absolutely agree Doolally - let's just take the food stickies. They contain a wealth of information, yet people still want to have tailored advice for their situation. And let's face it, some just don't have the inclination to wade through pages of info.

However, if we could have a sticky that outlines roughly the costs of it all and some other info that applies to all, then for that they could be referred on to that thread or at the very least it will be easier for peeps to just copy and paste info and not typing it all out again. 

Oh, and I absolutely agree with gSkinner too - two stickies - one prevention, and one for after the fact. However, hasn't TB created one on the virtues of spaying? Could that perhaps simply be renamed?


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Thanks for fixing that link Hobbs, it provides interesting background to this discussion
Hmm, my _suggestion_ would be that the information is presented from the point of view of an amateur....let me explain that suggestion.
For example...experienced breeders will talk about 'Health testing', now to your average moggie owner that does not mean an awful lot, it is something which quite frankly most would not consider or even understand. Over on MSE recently a poster was talking about letting her beloved Moggie have a litter and was joking about worrying that she would not choose a 'nice boyfriend' . I pointed out that in fact moggie mating is more like a gang rape and that her darling kitty was in real danger of picking up serious infection or being chased across busy roads by amorous toms. Suddenly it all seemed less appealing.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch ... As an owner of a cat who had a litter when you had every opportunity to spay her, what advice in the form of a sticky would have prevented this happening? 

Maybe hearing it form the pesrpective of someone like yourself would be a good place to try and work out what we could put together to stop all these "accidental" litters?

To be honest it can be difficult for people who do the right thing and neuter/spay their cats to work out why it is so difficult for others 

There is more information than ever on the internet about neutering and financial help available than years ago ... yet people still let their cats have litters .... Personally I really don't know what angle to approach this from or what info to provide that is not already available.

So, maybe hearing from people like yourself might help


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Gratch ... As an owner of a cat who had a litter when you had every opportunity to spay her, what advice in the form of a sticky would have prevented this happening?
> 
> Maybe hearing it form the pesrpective of someone like yourself would be a good place to try and work out what we could put together to stop all these "accidental" litters?
> 
> ...


That's the plan. The point is though, alot of people are going to come on with already pregnant moggies and knowing they're going to keep the litter and it would be good for them to have something to go through if they're atleast waiting for other replies aswell. I was thinking of a format which I'll post soon, with prevention obviously being one of the first topics.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Paddypaws said:


> Thanks for fixing that link Hobbs, it provides interesting background to this discussion
> Hmm, my _suggestion_ would be that the information is presented from the point of view of an amateur....let me explain that suggestion.
> For example...experienced breeders will talk about 'Health testing', now to your average moggie owner that does not mean an awful lot, it is something which quite frankly most would not consider or even understand. Over on MSE recently a poster was talking about letting her beloved Moggie have a litter and was joking about worrying that she would not choose a 'nice boyfriend' . I pointed out that in fact moggie mating is more like a gang rape and that her darling kitty was in real danger of picking up serious infection or being chased across busy roads by amorous toms. Suddenly it all seemed less appealing.


Everyone has different views on costs aswell. Breeders tend to use the best of the best food/litter and that can increase costs dramatically. This is definitely a good point to put in though and will be a section in the format. I'll go think when up and see what you all think.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch said:


> That's the plan. The point is though, alot of people are going to come on with already pregnant moggies and knowing they're going to keep the litter and it would be good for them to have something to go through if they're atleast waiting for other replies aswell. I was thinking of a format which I'll post soon, with prevention obviously being one of the first topics.


So this thread is actually about advice on how to care for a pregnant cat and subsequent litter


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> So this thread is actually about advice on how to care for a pregnant cat and subsequent litter


I dont think so as it has been previously stated there could be two sticky's made..  about what to do if you think your cat is pregnant/prevention and how to cope if your cat is pregnant/or just had kittens..

Its about putting ideas up.. its about putting your bits in.. and then a good q&a's thread can be made up for it..

You know.. I believe. if a person isn't willing to try.. Then that person doesn't have the right to moan/call someone elses ideas..


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Gratch said:


> Everyone has different views on costs aswell. Breeders *tend to use the best of the best food/litter* and that can increase costs dramatically. This is definitely a good point to put in though and will be a section in the format. I'll go think when up and see what you all think.


Hahaha, you wish! :tongue_smilie:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> You know.. I believe. if a person isn't willing to try.. Then that person doesn't have the right to moan/call someone elses ideas..


Where have I said I won't try?


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> So this thread is actually about advice on how to care for a pregnant cat and subsequent litter


Many people do not know that spaying a cat will abort a litter so surely there should be some infromation in regards to that when a new member posts. It seems very daft to have a robotic response to every "help my cats pregnant" post...

"Hi welcome to petforums, sorry you are in this situation. At least they will be cute. Please go to ______________ for more information on how to help your pregnant cat give birth and please go ______________ to read about spaying for after the litter."

If I was someone coming on with a pregnant cat, I would want someone to give me my options! Surely not every single "accident" mating does the owner intend to keep the kittens from the go?:blink:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Surely not every single "accident" mating does the owner intend to keep the kittens from the go?:blink:


Most seem to sell them now, very few people are in the position to keep a whole litter, I have seen rescue cats have 6 and 7


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Many people do not know that spaying a cat will abort a litter so surely there should be some infromation in regards to that when a new member posts. It seems very daft to have a robotic response to every "help my cats pregnant" post...
> 
> "Hi welcome to petforums, sorry you are in this situation. At least they will be cute. Please go to ______________ for more information on how to help your pregnant cat give birth and please go ______________ to read about spaying for after the litter."
> 
> If I was someone coming on with a pregnant cat, I would want someone to give me my options! Surely not every single "accident" mating does the owner intend to keep the kittens from the go?:blink:


Actually, why wouldn't a "robotic" response that signposts posters to relevant threads with easy to digest information be a good first response. Let them read it, educate themselves a little and then return with questions they have.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Most seem to sell them now, very few people are in the position to keep a whole litter, I have seen rescue cats have 6 and 7


But this is the thing surely not everyone who comes on here is in a position to raise a litter and provide the vet care if needed. Before they are even off to their new homes.

So surely if your not in a position to care for the litter fully you would want your cat to not go through the pregnancy. :blink:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> Actually, why wouldn't a "robotic" response that signposts posters to relevant threads with easy to digest information be a good first response. Let them read it, educate themselves a little and then return with questions they have.


It might deter the trolls too


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

hobbs2004 said:


> Actually, why wouldn't a "robotic" response that signposts posters to relevant threads with easy to digest information be a good first response. Let them read it, educate themselves a little and then return with questions they have.


Because its so....un-personal.

I would not go back to a forum that I thought everyone didnt have opinions and all made the same cold reply to similar threads. Or is that just me?


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Where have I said I won't try?


Sorry that wasn't aimed at you.. My brain is still pickled.. thats why I started a new paragraph. 

I mean not just about this.. in life in general.. I had all this in work the other week... People moan but wont speak out..


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

1) Introduction with message advocating spay/neuter
2) Spay/neuter
Early spay/neuter
Spay during pregnancy, risks and benefits
3) Early signs of pregnancy
4) Why you should bring your cat to the vet when you suspect pregnancy
5) Cat pregnancy week by week
6) Costs involved in a healthy pregnancy
7) The stages of cat labour
8) Emergency supplies for cat labour
9) Why you should stay with your cat when she is due
10) When to go to the vet pregnancy & labour
11) Costs involved in raising a healthy litter
12) Kitten development week 0 - 13
13) When to start weaning your kittens
14) When to start litter training your kittens
15) Vaccinations
16) Age to rehome your kittens
17) At what point to spay the mother
18) After word again advocating spay/neuter


Shetlandlover, if you don't want to be involved find but don't call it 'daft'. Alot of people also come on late at night and don't get responses in time for something important like trouble with labour. If this information is all at hand atleast there is a chance of them getting to it in time


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> *Many people do not know that spaying a cat will abort a litter so surely there should be some infromation in regards to that when a new member posts. *It seems very daft to have a robotic response to every "help my cats pregnant" post...
> 
> "Hi welcome to petforums, sorry you are in this situation. At least they will be cute. Please go to ______________ for more information on how to help your pregnant cat give birth and please go ______________ to read about spaying for after the litter."
> 
> If I was someone coming on with a pregnant cat, I would want someone to give me my options! Surely not every single "accident" mating does the owner intend to keep the kittens from the go?:blink:


And you know most who come on .. They seem to believe this is a great risk for a cat.. to be spayed whilst pregnant..


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

Gratch said:


> Shetlandlover, if you don't want to be involved find but don't call it 'daft'. Alot of people also come on late at night and don't get responses in time for something important like trouble with labour. If this information is all at hand atleast there is a chance of them getting to it in time


It is daft.

And I am not on about cats that are due, I advocate advice to those who need it during birthing regardless of breed/situation. What I am on about is letting people know how difficult it is to raise a litter and that they can stop the litter if they want to.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hobbs2004 said:


> Actually, why wouldn't a "robotic" response that signposts posters to relevant threads with easy to digest information be a good first response. Let them read it, educate themselves a little and then return with questions they have.


I said this before.. 
I mean if they post..

'My cat is pregnant'

We could then post the link to them.. and ask them to have a read.. and if they have any further questions or worries then ask away..


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> Sorry that wasn't aimed at you.. My brain is still pickled.. thats why I started a new paragraph.
> 
> I mean not just about this.. in life in general.. I had all this in work the other week... People moan but wont speak out..


Gratch has obliged


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> And you know most who come on .. They seem to believe this is a great risk for a cat.. to be spayed whilst pregnant..


Alot of vets TELL you it's an increased risk. Honestly none of my vets even offered the choice of it, I had to ask.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> It might deter the trolls too


I agree with this so much.. as we wouldn't be answering them getting wound up..


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## missye87 (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't know if I'm taking a very harsh approach, but I believe that all pet cats should really be neutered as you can't always be watching over them. 
I think it's common sense to spay them if they are going to be pets, as accidents do happen and unless you have the knowledge to take care of a pregnant kitty and her coming babies, and the subsequent ability to take care of them if she has a large litter and you can't sell them or give them all away, it's just plain wrong. 

I think it's terrible when people let this just happen and then give the kittens to a rescue. Fair do's the kittens are the ones to go first at a rescue, but that leaves all the other poor mogg's not finding a nice home


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> And you know most who come on .. They seem to believe this is a great risk for a cat.. to be spayed whilst pregnant..


The risk of a spay is pretty much the same regardless of pregnancy or not. The biggest risk is if someone is un-able to provide the care for the kittens once born yet still goes ahead with the litter.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Many people do not know that spaying a cat will abort a litter so surely there should be some infromation in regards to that when a new member posts. It seems very daft to have a robotic response to every "help my cats pregnant" post...
> 
> "Hi welcome to petforums, sorry you are in this situation. At least they will be cute. Please go to ______________ for more information on how to help your pregnant cat give birth and please go ______________ to read about spaying for after the litter."
> 
> If I was someone coming on with a pregnant cat, I would want someone to give me my options! Surely not every single "accident" mating does the owner intend to keep the kittens from the go?:blink:


I pondered on that, Shetlandlover. But then thought aobut forums I use for other interests and realised that if I do have a specific question in mind or I'm looking for general info on a particlar subject, that I do use the stickies. I know everyone uses forums differently but I do think it helps to steer people towards a stickie if it's relevant to what they're asking.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Posted a format already, scroll up!


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Just a quick reminder about the first post, we're talking about if someone has already come on with a pregnant moggie. Prevention is already out the window but it'll still be strongly advocated throughout the sticky, with a section dedicated to it, aswell as being mentioned in the into and afterword. Spaying during pregnancy will also have a section itself.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch said:


> Alot of vets TELL you it's an increased risk. Honestly none of my vets even offered the choice of it, I had to ask.


It s an increased risk to spaying a non pregnant cat, but every pregnancy and delivery carries a risk. Especially when breeding for cats of unknown background. And when they are in the care of people who have no experience of breeding. I was involved in rescue for some time, before being allowed to take in and care for a rescue kitty who was pregnant ... and then I had experienced help only a few streets away


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Repost for those that missed: Format for sticky, any comments?

1) Introduction with message advocating spay/neuter
2) Spay/neuter
Early spay/neuter
Spay during pregnancy, risks and benefits
3) Early signs of pregnancy
4) Why you should bring your cat to the vet when you suspect pregnancy
5) Cat pregnancy week by week
6) Costs involved in a healthy pregnancy
7) The stages of cat labour
8) Emergency supplies for cat labour
9) Why you should stay with your cat when she is due
10) When to go to the vet pregnancy & labour
11) Costs involved in raising a healthy litter
12) Kitten development week 0 - 13
13) When to start weaning your kittens
14) When to start litter training your kittens
15) Vaccinations
16) Age to rehome your kittens
17) At what point to spay the mother
18) After word again advocating spay/neuter


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch said:


> Repost for those that missed: Format for sticky, any comments?
> 
> 1) Introduction with message advocating spay/neuter
> 2) Spay/neuter
> ...


Will have look later just had a phone call, new sofa etc here in half an hour :thumbup:

To be honest I would love to just be able to direct people to something like this. I hope someone like Aurelia has time for input, I'd trust her judgment more than anyone else on here re cats and breeding.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

havent read all the posts, gota tidy up,

wrote that a while back:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/140588-reasons-spay-neuters-your-pets.html

check all the pages as others added to it. -if anyone else can add to it feel free


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Because its so....un-personal.
> 
> I would not go back to a forum that I thought everyone didnt have opinions and all made the same cold reply to similar threads. Or is that just me?


How is that impersonal? Let's face it - most responses to these threads are "robotic" in their own right. You know exactly what certain members (of both sides of the divide) will say. So, everyone is already using stock remarks.

But just to clarify - i am not saying that we should just give them a couple of threads to read and send them on their way - but I do think that that might be a good first step to give them info in an impartial way. Then if they have questions, based on their situation and now armed with more information that they have previously had, then they come back and ask.

This works to some degree with the food stickies. People ask ad nauseum about cat food. They get directed to the food stickies. And then they come back to ask more specific questions. Etc. I fail to see how that is impersonal but I can see that it saves someone like me (and some other peeps in that section with an interest in food) a lot of time and repetition.

But perhaps you are in a roundabout way saying that we shouldn't have stickies on breeding?


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Will have look later just had a phone call, new sofa etc here in half an hour :thumbup:
> 
> To be honest I would love to just be able to direct people to something like this. I hope someone like Aurelia has time for input, I'd trust her judgment more than anyone else on here re cats and breeding.


Aye, would be good if all the experienced breeders could be directed here to give their input (if they wish to give it). There must be atleast a half decade of experience between the lot of them so the sticky could end up an absolute gem


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> The risk of a spay is pretty much the same regardless of pregnancy or not. The biggest risk is if someone is un-able to provide the care for the kittens once born yet still goes ahead with the litter.


I think you will find I know that.. but I have noticed it is an excuse/worry.. for some who have asked questions..


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> But perhaps you are in a roundabout way saying that we shouldn't have stickies on breeding?


This might be it, but generally people help the ones going through with the moggie pregnancy anyway, even if it comes across as harsh. Including as much as possible in an easy format will hopefully get through to alot of people. Heck even some new pedigree breeders ask for advice that can be covered.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Gratch said:


> Repost for those that missed: Format for sticky, any comments?
> 
> 1) Introduction with message advocating spay/neuter
> 2) Spay/neuter
> ...


Personally, I think that is way too info dense! This could (should ?) be broken up into different sections

One each to deal with

1) pregnant cat and costs
2) kittens and weaning
3) kittens on their way to new homes


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> Personally, I think that is way too info dense! This could (should ?) be broken up into different sections
> 
> One each to deal with
> 
> ...


The idea would be similar to your food stickies, the first post being links to specific post information but no one would be posting on them afterwards and the mods would allow updates as necessary. I guess it could be plit into 3 stickies but I think it should be ok if they're reading a table of contents and then clicking on the relevant link


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

hobbs2004 said:


> But perhaps you are in a roundabout way saying that we shouldn't have stickies on breeding?


Actual breeding - There should be stickies on. Theres far to much information for people to learn on breeding that it cant possibly be done in resonse to a thread.

But giving someone a guide on what to do with a pregnant cat?

The first two questions should be:

1) Do you want to keep the litter? 
2) Do you know that if you take your cat to be spayed now it will abort the pregnancy?

Then if they want to keep the litter they should be passed onto the breeding stickies.

No one will know what they have done is wrong if no one tells them. Many people come onto the forum with the belief that their moggy kittens will never end up in a rescue yet will sell them to whoever arrives at the door with £50 in their hand.

What I enjoy the most about reading the threads in the cat section to do with moggy breeding is Amethyst's posts about her rescue experience imo her experiences are enough to let someone know that there is a problem in this country with unwanted cats and that allowing it to happen once okay is possibly an accident but again and again is not acceptable.

Anyway, As much as I am against a robotic reply because it will start on these threads and soon there will be a robotic reply for every type of thread I look forward to seeing how it goes.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hobbs2004 said:


> Personally, I think that is way too info dense! This could (should ?) be broken up into different sections
> 
> One each to deal with
> 
> ...


Great idea.. and in each section you can post the link to the next part so it is optional if they read.. 

I think if you throw too much info at a person.. the brain generally turns off.. 

Or is this a prob I suffer with only.. :lol:


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Actual breeding - There should be stickies on. Theres far to much information for people to learn on breeding that it cant possibly be done in resonse to a thread.
> 
> But giving someone a guide on what to do with a pregnant cat?
> 
> ...


Sorry, I think I misunderstood your earlier posts. Cannot argue with that in the slightest and that seems to be the most sensible way forward. :thumbsup:


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

So, who is going to fill those headings and write up the actual info?


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Argh. How many breeders need this info though? The whole point is to help people deal with a pregnancy that shouldn't be, give them the information to help decide on the course of action and information if they proceed with the pregnancy. It is in no way 'YAY KITTENS'.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

hobbs2004 said:


> So, who is going to fill those headings and write up the actual info?


I'm hoping to collect info from here and anyone that want's to help and then write it up in a completely unbiased manner. I will however strongly advocate spaying in the intro, afterword and the first section which will cover the subject in it's entirety. I COULD just rifle through webpages but I was hoping this would be something you could all take pride in also.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Gratch said:


> I'm hoping to collect info from here and anyone that want's to help and then write it up in a completely unbiased manner. I will however strongly advocate spaying in the intro, afterword and the first section which will cover the subject in it's entirety. I COULD just rifle through webpages but I was hoping this would be something you could all take pride in also.


Good idea.. in that first part maybe a couple of links to threads where it hasn't been plain sailing and has cost money etc.


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

I like this idea, that way when some one comes on with a "my cat pregnant" story we can give them the link. I think this would save alot time and pages after pages of people going round in circles explaining to the op about the risks involved and irresponsible breeding practices. That way op can read through it and if they still choose to go ahead with the litter then they are probably going to anyway no matter how much debating we do with them. If they then come back and ask questions or advice those that want to reply can and those that want nothing to do with the op dont have to (after all our veiws will be put in to the sticky). 

I think breeders should have a big input in to this new sticky to give the best advice. Everyones opinions on the matter should be compressed and put in so op can see excactly what people think about their new found situation. This could include shock tactics ie how many cats are put down every year in shelters, risks in pregnancy, health risks ect im sure there are lots more. 

This is just what i think should be included in the sticky.


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

Have to say the Raw feeding sticky was invaluable to me as i could read it at my leisure with out the info changeing and being bogged down in the conversations and tangents threads can go into, I still then asked advice but it was more tailored to exactly what i needed to know IYKWIM
I think if it can be done it will be helpful.. there are probably huge percentage of people who never post or even join that look on here for information too


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Marley boy said:


> This could include shock tactics ie how many cats are put down every year in shelters, risks in pregnancy, health risks ect im sure there are lots more.


Excellent idea, hopefully some of the rescue volunteers can help there


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

It sounds like a good idea, you can only try it and ask for feed back from members. I always refer back to books etc when i have pups. Can't have kittens all the cats are done. Its not that you forget but you like reassurance in what you are doing and if its a first litter they could read the part that applies to them and if they have a question they could start a thread....


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Because its so....un-personal.
> 
> I would not go back to a forum that I thought everyone didnt have opinions and all made the same cold reply to similar threads. Or is that just me?


I don't think anyone's suggesting merely posting the sticky and then "fare thee well, best of luck, no more responses for you!"

I think they're suggesting posting the sticky and THEN answering individual concerns. But certainly any of you can see how utterly tiresome and reductive it is to have someone post, and then we get the endless round of "you need to abort", "You are irresponsible", "there's no excuse", "your 3 year old kid should know better than to leave a door open" and on and on and on. Unless of course everyone (and I'm not singling you out, I just hopped on and yours is the most succint message on here to quote) is just sad that they will miss out on the opportunity to climb up on the soapbox several times a day. I'm terribly distressed to think that people who claim to be telling people the proper ways to do things for the sake of animals and in the interest of educating the masses are SO against the creation of a thread that accomplishes just that! More education is never a bad thing.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> And you know most who come on .. They seem to believe this is a great risk for a cat.. to be spayed whilst pregnant..


Yes. My vet told me that when I took the stray we found in. "She could be pregnant and if we spay now, she could bleed to death on the table." He's been a really good vet--he's old fashioned as I've said in other posts, but he's solid. He was pretty definitive about it. He also said it isn't a good idea to spay while in heat.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Well I'm going to attempt this either way. With help would be brilliant, without I'll just have to amend as I learn new things. As dagny said I am really suprised that alot of you who are 'tired of seeing the same thing twice a week' and are distressed about kitten season are so against this. Maybe I'll just put up a draft and people can PM me suggestions and obviously I'll add their names to contributors.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch said:


> As dagny said I am really suprised that alot of you who are 'tired of seeing the same thing twice a week' and are distressed about kitten season are so against this.


I'll be the first to raise my hand and say I am more than tired of hearing the same old c***p from idiots who can't get off their backside and neuter their cats.

Putting up "stickies" about "how to look after your "accidental litter" is all fine and dandy but does little to assuage anyones concerns over the kitten season ...


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

dagny0823 said:


> Yes. My vet told me that when I took the stray we found in. "She could be pregnant and if we spay now, she could bleed to death on the table." He's been a really good vet--he's old fashioned as I've said in other posts, but he's solid. He was pretty definitive about it. He also said it isn't a good idea to spay while in heat.


I've spayed so many pregnant cats I honestly couldn't give you a figure and never had one bleed to death on the vet's table ...


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I'll be the first to raise my hand and say I am more than tired of hearing the same old c***p from idiots who can't get off their backside and neuter their cats.
> 
> Putting up "stickies" about "how to look after your "accidental litter" is all fine and dandy but does little to assuage anyones concerns over the kitten season ...


I do agree Amethyst. Those stickies will help pretty little when it comes to the prevention of "accidental (... on purpose)" pregnancies (though hopefully the info contained in them will also contain info on spaying while pregnant to abort as well as some shock stats to make spaying after the litter a heck of a lot more likely).

But the problem is that people come on here when the cat is already pregnant, at which point prevention is too late (apart from the abortion option). What really would be needed is some type of campaign that is larger than this forum to educate people about prevention to catch them before they even get the need to post about it here.

Which I know you more than anyone else knows.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I've spayed so many pregnant cats I honestly couldn't give you a figure and never had one bleed to death on the vet's table ...


Are you a vet?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Perhaps the original post in this should be included
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/158605-some-advice-those-accidental-pregnancies.html


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> Are you a vet?


It's a figure of speech ... if it is clearer for you 

I have arranged the spay of so many cats


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> It's a figure of speech ... if it is clearer for you
> 
> I have arranged the spay of so many cats


:lol: I thought maybe you were a vet for a min.. But was sure you had never said you were,... 

I must admit I have known cats be spayed whilst pregnant and never heard of difficulties..


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

Call me pedantic, but I see this from a different perspective. Rather less of an education, more like condoning moggie breeding.


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

The problem is that moggies will get pregnant whether people on here like it or not, and a lot of the time its too late to do anything about it.

The main reason for this is so that it gives people information whether or not their cat (pedigree/moggie) is pregnant 

Also it stops arguing, as can be seen from all other threads that people have very different opinions but they are also passionate about what they believe to be right 

It's not condoning people to breed their moggies, I think once the deed is done, the best that can be hoped for is a healthy litter and queen (which members on here can help with) and for the cat to be spayed after the litter is born


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

When I had the 2 young ones fixed one was in heat one wasn't the appointment had already been made so I kept it...But the vet did tell me it was more dangerous when they are in heat or pregnant. The reason being the blood vessels are larger or something like that so they like to know in advance before surgery. i knew she hadn't been mated cause they weren't allowed out until they were fixed unless we were with them. We had decided when they were dropped of at 3 weeks old that they would be spayed at 5 months apparently about 1 week to late. We had no problems but problems do arise and it is an individuals decision whether to take the chance or not when they are pregnant...


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

dougal22 said:


> Call me pedantic, but I see this from a different perspective. Rather less of an education, more like condoning moggie breeding.


It's not condoning it at all! For the umpteenth time the intro will strongly advocate spaying and the first section itself will be dedicated to it, including prevention, early spay/neuter and spaying during pregnancy with the idea that if someone comes in with a pregnant moggie the first thing they're going to see is that it will be better to terminate! The rest of it is advice that is dished out almost daily here anyway, it's just condensing it into one segment for information and then they can make threads tailored to their personal problems.

Jeez didn't think I would have to defend it so much.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> The risk of a spay is pretty much the same regardless of pregnancy or not. The biggest risk is if someone is un-able to provide the care for the kittens once born yet still goes ahead with the litter.


Well the first sentence seems to be something that would be appropriate in the proposed thread. The second seems to me to make a wild assumption that everyone who has a pregnant moggie, unless they found her in that condition, is unable to take care of the kittens.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> I'll be the first to raise my hand and say I am more than tired of hearing the same old c***p from idiots who can't get off their backside and neuter their cats.
> 
> Putting up "stickies" about "how to look after your "accidental litter" is all fine and dandy but does little to assuage anyones concerns over the kitten season ...


Then start a thread about NEUTER YOUR CAT NOW and fill it with stories and scary things and information about how vets are usually wrong about breeding and how they really don't understand how spaying works and when it's actually possible to spay. If it's that damned important, then start that thread, and bump it when it goes off the top page, or get it made a sticky. That's wonderful. Or maybe better yet, add that stuff at the start of THIS sticky, as Gratch has suggested.

But I really fail to see how posting a sticky to help people--people who are going to come on here anyway with their individual cases and ask their individual questions--is somehow going to make the situation any worse. If they come on here and are browbeaten about how they've been irresponsible and they should get their cat fixed now, and they still have the kittens, how is the outcome going to be any worse if they come on here, ask the same question about the same situation, but instead of personalized browbeating, they are first directed to a sticky that will give them general guidance?

This is me, not getting how the whole lot of you who are so passionate and caring about the welfare of animals, who obviously have so much love for them, could be so pigheadedly against something that might be useful and educational.:mad2 ::mad2: :mad2: ouch.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> I've spayed so many pregnant cats I honestly couldn't give you a figure and never had one bleed to death on the vet's table ...


Great----want to call my vet and tell him that?


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

dougal22 said:


> Call me pedantic, but I see this from a different perspective. Rather less of an education, more like condoning moggie breeding.


:mad2: :mad2: :mad2:


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

dagny0823 said:


> Then start a thread about NEUTER YOUR CAT NOW and fill it with stories and scary things and information about how vets are usually wrong about breeding and how they really don't understand how spaying works and when it's actually possible to spay. If it's that damned important, then start that thread, and bump it when it goes off the top page, or get it made a sticky. That's wonderful. Or maybe better yet, add that stuff at the start of THIS sticky, as Gratch has suggested.
> 
> *But I really fail to see how posting a sticky to help people--people who are going to come on here anyway with their individual cases and ask their individual questions--is somehow going to make the situation any worse. If they come on here and are browbeaten about how they've been irresponsible and they should get their cat fixed now, and they still have the kittens, how is the outcome going to be any worse if they come on here, ask the same question about the same situation, but instead of personalized browbeating, they are first directed to a sticky that will give them general guidance?
> 
> This is me, not getting how the whole lot of you who are so passionate and caring about the welfare of animals, who obviously have so much love for them, could be so pigheadedly against something that might be useful and educational.*:mad2 ::mad2: :mad2: ouch.


I have to agree. :thumbup:


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Or call my vet who undertakes a number of pregnant spays on cats every week at this time of year, for a nominal fee on behalf of two local shelters and, in some instances for a particularly hard up shelter, for free?

Dagny, I find it hard to disagree with much of what you've said otherwise, but on the safety/advisability of a pregnant spay our vets would obviously disagree


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Or call my vet who undertakes a number of pregnant spays on cats every week at this time of year, for a nominal fee on behalf of two local shelters and, in some instances for a particularly hard up shelter, for free?
> 
> Dagny, I find it hard to disagree with much of what you've said otherwise, but on the safety/advisability of a pregnant spay our vets would obviously disagree


I think dagny means that alot of vets are very old fashioned about it. Like I said, I had to ask about spaying in pregnancy and was told it increases risks of complications, it's easier to let the pregnancy continue. Alot of vets are still under the sway of this idea and people trust their vets opinion. We can make it known that it isn't true in most cases


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Or call my vet who undertakes a number of pregnant spays on cats every week at this time of year, for a nominal fee on behalf of two local shelters and, in some instances for a particularly hard up shelter, for free?
> 
> Dagny, I find it hard to disagree with much of what you've said otherwise, but on the safety/advisability of a pregnant spay our vets would obviously disagree


They would. And I'm not on my vet's bandwagon and my cat wasn't pregnant. She showed up, she was proven to be a stray, she was examined, he said she might or might not be, but she could die if we spay her and she is, so wait---if she calls, she's not and we'll spay when she's done, if she is, get ready for kittens. Like I said he's oldschool, but since I didn't know boo about pregnant anything, I thought it might be a tad cavalier, nay, irresponsible, to toss aside his advice based on 35 years as a vet and say "poo to you old man, spay my cat and the devil take her." That's all.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Maybe some people dont like the idea cause they would much rather get on their soap box about the situ each time a new person asks the question.. .. Personally I think its a great Idea..


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

The problem i;m having with this now, is how many people have been disuaded from using the forum because of certain views on a pregnant moggie??? 

If someone read the passionate views of some members they may well have thort 'stuff that, I'm not asking anything cos i'll get bombarded with why isn;t she spayed, ur irresponsible'. 

Something impartial is needed, where only the facts are put in, then if they still want to ask a question, they are well aware of what they are asking and aware of views of different members. 

They may well choose to PM a certain member depending on how helpful they feel an individual member can be, but at least they still have that choice


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Gratch said:


> It's not condoning it at all! For the umpteenth time the intro will strongly advocate spaying and the first section itself will be dedicated to it, including prevention, early spay/neuter and spaying during pregnancy with the idea that if someone comes in with a pregnant moggie the first thing they're going to see is that it will be better to terminate! The rest of it is advice that is dished out almost daily here anyway, it's just condensing it into one segment for information and then they can make threads tailored to their personal problems.
> 
> Jeez didn't think I would have to defend it so much.


Wow Gratch, hold your horses a bit. You have created a thread to discuss the possibility of a sticky - not all people will agree with a) it in the first place and b) the subject matter. That is their prerogative. And surely this thread is the perfect place to discuss it as well as its content and to iron out any misunderstandings.



loz83 said:


> The problem i;m having with this now, is how many people have been disuaded from using the forum because of certain views on a pregnant moggie???
> 
> If someone read the passionate views of some members they may well have thort 'stuff that, I'm not asking anything cos i'll get bombarded with why isn;t she spayed, ur irresponsible'.
> 
> ...


So, how *many* people have been dissuaded from using the forum then based on the views of some peeps on here? How do you know whether they ever had any intention to stay in the first place - either because they were trolls or because they were just looking for somewhere to get some opinions (usually to back up their own and ignoring the advice that is contrary to what they wanted to hear) or quick fixes one evening because they had nothing better to do?

So many people come on here to post about something dreadful that has happened to their cat/dog/canary etc and you never hear from them again (sometimes they discuss things on the thread, sometimes they post only once).


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

dagny0823 said:


> This is me, not getting how the whole lot of you who are so passionate and caring about the welfare of animals, who obviously have so much love for them, could be so pigheadedly against something that might be useful and educational.:mad2 ::mad2: :mad2: ouch.


And this is me  at you little rant.

Personally I'll leave it up to Gratch to get cracking and put something together, while I get on helping in my own small way, with some the practical welfare issues regarding cat welfare in my area.

Maybe if you are so passionate about this ... get on and help her put something together eh?

And as far as banging your head against the wall, do some hands on voluntary work for your local rescue and you'll *really * have good reason to do it


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> Maybe some people dont like the idea cause they would much rather get on their soap box about the situ each time a new person asks the question.. .. Personally I think its a great Idea..


Then why not help Gratch put the thread together, they do the research, you set it all out in a coherent form.

Members who feel they have the experience and knowledge, can then read through it and add helpful comments


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

dagny0823 said:


> :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:


And you are banging your head at my previous post why? As yours is the only valid opinion? Because no-one else is entitled to their opinion?

You seem to do a lot of head banging. Perhaps as another member has suggested, you concentrate your energy into practical help instead of banging your head on here. Real effort will give you a 'real' reason to bang your head.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

dougal22 said:


> You seem to do a lot of head banging. Perhaps as another member has suggested, you concentrate your energy into practical help instead of banging your head on here. Real effort will give you a 'real' reason to bang your head.


I am sure her local cat rescue would appreciate some help cleaning out their litter trays 

Or maybe collecting old clean towels and blankets for the cats, she could organise a collection of cat food at work, if she drives, do some vet runs to take in, pick up cats, do some fund raising ... lot's of options 

Seriously, anyone with enthusiasm and energy to spare .... your local cat/animal rescue needs you!


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

loz83 said:


> The problem i;m having with this now, is how many people have been disuaded from using the forum because of certain views on a pregnant moggie???
> 
> If someone read the passionate views of some members they may well have thort 'stuff that, I'm not asking anything cos i'll get bombarded with why isn;t she spayed, ur irresponsible'.
> 
> ...


*And what about it from another perspective - some members are sick of coming on here because of the back slapping that goes on from unethical people who condone unethical practices. *

*JUST TO CLARIFY - THIS IS NOT IN RELATION TO THIS THREAD. IT IS A GENERAL OBSERVATION OF THE CAT FORUM*.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

dougal22 said:


> *And what about it from another perspective - some members are sick of coming on here because of the back slapping that goes on from unethical people who condone unethical practices. *
> 
> *JUST TO CLARIFY - THIS IS NOT IN RELATION TO THIS THREAD. IT IS A GENERAL OBSERVATION OF THE CAT FORUM*.


Couldn't agree more.

I'm keen now to see some of the members who are all for the "education" thread, to step up to the plate and put their money where their mouth is and to put forward a blueprint for this.

Gratch had the idea, so I think it befitting they lead the "project" do their research, already loads of info available, suggest they begin here Cats Protection: What we do: Neutering: More about neutering.

Though where they do so is up to them


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Gratch said:


> I think dagny means that alot of vets are very old fashioned about it. Like I said, I had to ask about spaying in pregnancy and was told it increases risks of complications, it's easier to let the pregnancy continue. Alot of vets are still under the sway of this idea and people trust their vets opinion. We can make it known that it isn't true in most cases


I think they are just afraid of litigation in case something goes wrong, IMHO.


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

koekemakranka said:


> I think they are just afraid of litigation in case something goes wrong, IMHO.


From the prospective of working in a surgery and witnessing pregnant cat speys then just would like to say that as far as danger of litigation that is not a reason as the client will have been made to sign the op consent form for the spey and termination.
Yes medically there is increased risk due to the excess blood flow same as speying any animal in season it exsists and can happen doesn't mean it will.

Vets (at least good ones) are not in the mind set to destroy life they work to maintain and aid it -no one working in a surgery enjoys watching each kitten being lifted from the womb and individually injected and killed (if they do then they should not be in that job) that is not to say that they are ignorant and don't realise that there is no future for these kittens anyway as the chances of homes are so few. They often do spey pregnant cats for clients who demand it done -it does not mean they enjoy doing it .


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

dagny0823 said:


> This is me, not getting how the whole lot of you who are so passionate and caring about the welfare of animals, who obviously have so much love for them, could be so pigheadedly against something that might be useful and educational.:mad2 ::mad2: :mad2: ouch.


i think what youre not getting is that some people fear an initiative like this is just a backdoor way to glorify/help/encourage moggie breeding. Cigarette advertising isnt allowed in televised sports even if the adverts do carry a health warning because reputable sport associating with tobacco companies and their advertising is seen as gloryifying smoking. I think many in here fear that even if this "guide to help your pregant moggie through pregnancy, birth and kitten rearing" carries a neuter warning it is gloryfying and condoning moggie breeding by its very presense here on a reputable cat lovers forum.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I am sure her local cat rescue would appreciate some help cleaning out their litter trays
> 
> Seriously, anyone with enthusiasm and energy to spare .... your local cat/animal rescue needs you!


very true, and actually helps animals a lot more when people get out and actually do it, than sit on a forum just talking about it



dougal22 said:


> And what about it from another perspective - some members are sick of coming on here because of the back slapping that goes on from unethical people who condone unethical practices.


also very true as there is a very thin line between helping and condoning


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> very true, and actually helps animals a lot more when people get out and actually do it, than sit on a forum just talking about it


Indeed, I did a quick transport run this morning, only took an hour, but frees up someone to do other rescue work


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Right, so what I've gathered from this is instead of this thread being a ''Spay so your cat doesn't get pregnant. Oh your cat IS pregnant? Well spaying would be your advisable option, let me dispell the myths of spaying a pregnant cat for you. Still don't want to spay? These are the problems you may face during the labour, the minimal costs of supporting a healthy pregnancy and litter and some forum members experiences of things not going well. As you can see some of these pregnancies were planned and things still didn't end well. Still don't want to spay? This is what you need to know to help your cat during her pregnancy, labour and help the kittens through the 12-13 weeks you should be keeping them for. You should spay your cat after weaning the kittens as she can go into heat again very soon," thread it's a "Yay fluffy kittens, release the kitties and if you hit the jackpot I'll give ya all the tools you'll need!" thread.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

The problem is and will remain that a robotic response imo could be taken as supporting those who "accidently" let their cat out or who "accidently" forget that if they have an entire male and entire female babies will soon follow. 

I do look forward to seeing this suggestion in effect BUT and I dont mean this in a rude way I do think that others should help gratch type it out because a few months ago gratch was in the same possition and tbh of course she is going to type what she would have liked to hear at that point which was a small suggestion on spaying but a planned basic how to guide on how to raise the litter and then maybe a comment or two about posting up some cute pictures when they are born. Why? Because its human nature. If this had happened to me and this opportunity came my way I would pick what I wanted to hear at that time not what should actually be said. (no offence) 

With every thread on the cat forum I look for certain members because they post alot of sense (most of the time I think everyone has off days) Amethyst, dougal22, Taylorbaby, hobbs2004 and Aurelia. They all post how the truly feel and what they think should be done rather than sugar coating it which I feel is were the robotic reaction will head after people get sick of using it I think it will resort to a quick post of a link for the person and a "make sure you put some pictures up". What I do love about the forum is people's honesty. Sometimes honesty hurts...but its always best because you know were you stand.

Anyway, Just my opinion. I dont post much around the cat section but I lurk.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> The problem is and will remain that a robotic response imo could be taken as supporting those who "accidently" let their cat out or who "accidently" forget that if they have an entire male and entire female babies will soon follow.


thats the problem i have, its not that i dont want to help, i help in various ways in animal rescue and that all takes a lot more time & effort than typing a 10 minute reply on a forum, but i dont want to be seen to be condoning accidental-deliberate breeding of moggies, and that is at the heart of the matter, how is accidental or deliberate are these accidental moggie pregnancies

gratch that is NOT a dig at you, i do truly believe if you had to do it all over again you would do things differently and i do believe this is your way of helping others in similar situations by sharing your experience, i guess i just worry some could see your good intentions and use them as how-to guide to help them mate their own two moggies, which i know is never your intention


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> The problem is and will remain that a robotic response imo could be taken as supporting those who "accidently" let their cat out or who "accidently" forget that if they have an entire male and entire female babies will soon follow.
> 
> I do look forward to seeing this suggestion in effect BUT and I dont mean this in a rude way I do think that others should help gratch type it out because a few months ago gratch was in the same possition and tbh of course she is going to type what she would have liked to hear at that point which was a small suggestion on spaying but a planned basic how to guide on how to raise the litter and then maybe a comment or two about posting up some cute pictures when they are born. Why? Because its human nature. If this had happened to me and this opportunity came my way I would pick what I wanted to hear at that time not what should actually be said. (no offence)
> 
> ...


I agree it would be nice for some help but I'm willing to shoulder it myself. I think you should read all my posts before commenting on me shetlandlover. I have frequently said that I know I did wrong and that I have actively been trying to discourage people from making my mistakes. There is no intent to sugar coat anything, it will be unbiased and free from judgement which alot of the people listed cannot manage. The only emphasis will be on spay/neuter as that is the general consensus on the forum and the rest will be general information that they need to know if the point doesn't get through.


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

What about, (and im thinking aloud here as a none cat owner so in the same eyes as a newbie cat owner i suppose) Including some form of timeline or doing it as a day by day..
eg Day 1 - Unspayed cat returns after being missing possibly caught, It is in the best interest to the cat to get her spayed at this point ect ect 
Clearly outlining the real percentage risk to the cat in laymans terms.. the facts that as has been said the vets are not giving.. so up to day (whatever it is) minimal increased risk to your cat? 
aI suppose there is a point after which spaying would not be advised?
I would have no clue what the facts on figures of that would be and as i say im just thinking aloud :lol:

EDIT* lots of posts between me typing and posting :lol:


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

catsmum said:


> thats the problem i have, its not that i dont want to help, i help in various ways in animal rescue and that all takes a lot more time & effort than typing a 10 minute reply on a forum, but i dont want to be seen to be condoning accidental-deliberate breeding of moggies, and that is at the heart of the matter, how is accidental or deliberate are these accidental moggie pregnancies
> 
> gratch that is NOT a dig at you, i do truly believe if you had to do it all over again you would do things differently and i do believe this is your way of helping others in similar situations by sharing your experience, i guess i just worry some could see your good intentions and use them as how-to guide to help them mate their own two moggies, which i know is never your intention


Exactly!!!!!! Gratch, this person words things better than I do!


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

catsmum said:


> i guess i just worry some could see your good intentions and use them as how-to guide to help them mate their own two moggies, which i know is never your intention


This is why I'm hoping at the least that some pedigree breeders, one's that plan their cat's pregnancies with every precaution, can contribute some (true) horror stories for people to read through to discourage it. I also think more come on here with pregnant moggies than to look at how to breed unless they're interested in breeding pedigrees.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

Gratch said:


> This is why I'm hoping at the least that some pedigree breeders, one's that plan their cat's pregnancies with every precaution, can contribute some (true) horror stories for people to read through to discourage it.


Can you get some horror stories about moggie pregnancies too? As I know a good 40% of people still believe pedigree cats and dogs are unhealthy. So to cover your ass from the "this wont happen to my cat because my cats not inbred" or whatever. You would be surprised when I worked in the vets how many people believed pedigree cats were unhealthy. One woman swore down that all pedigree cats died at 5. :blink:


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Can you get some horror stories about moggie pregnancies too? As I know a good 40% of people still believe pedigree cats and dogs are unhealthy. So to cover your ass from the "this wont happen to my cat because my cats not inbred" or whatever. You would be surprised when I worked in the vets how many people believed pedigree cats were unhealthy. One woman swore down that all pedigree cats died at 5. :blink:


Oh aye definitely! I didn't mean they would be left out, just hopefully if they see that all the planning in the world may not help them then they might be discouraged from using the thread as a 'How to breed' guide.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Gratch said:


> This is why I'm hoping at the least that some pedigree breeders, one's that plan their cat's pregnancies with every precaution, can contribute some (true) horror stories for people to read through to discourage it. I also think more come on here with pregnant moggies than to look at how to breed unless they're interested in breeding pedigrees.


I did, I said about rushing to the vets, nearly losing mum, who was screaming, I was in hysterics, kitten dying at the birth, mum couldnt push them out. Hand feeding etc, people tend to say 'I hope it doesnt happen to me' ...thats the atitude but IT CAN HAPPEN, and they need to laern how to cope with that with ANything that can happen, look up the worse bad things that can happen, you will need to know what to do!

Thats what I did, the worse most horrible things, how to get a kitten to start breeding, how to help mum deliver a kitten & feel her contractions, do the cords, how to see when mum is struggling and not juist when she is staring in your eyes screaming in pain 

People just kinda say 'ah well I hope mine will be ok' then thats it : Of course Ive had lovely births, taken about 20mins plopped out mum did everything, but you still get the bad with the good...you Have to know what to do.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> I did, I said about rushing to the vets, nearly losing mum, who was screaming, I was in hysterics, kitten dying at the birth, mum couldnt push them out. Hand feeding etc, people tend to say 'I hope it doesnt happen to me' ...thats the atitude but IT CAN HAPPEN, and they need to laern how to cope with that with ANything that can happen, look up the worse bad things that can happen, you will need to know what to do!
> 
> Thats what I did, the worse most horrible things, how to get a kitten to start breeding, how to help mum deliver a kitten & feel her contractions, do the cords, how to see when mum is struggling and not juist when she is staring in your eyes screaming in pain
> 
> People just kinda say 'ah well I hope mine will be ok' then thats it : Of course Ive had lovely births, taken about 20mins plopped out mum did everything, but you still get the bad with the good...you Have to know what to do.


Aye Taylorbaby I know you have had horrible things happen and if I could use that and any other problematic birth you've had (with your name on it ofcourse) then I hope people will see that even an experienced breeder can have terrible things happen and it's safer to spay their cat than risk it.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Gratch said:


> Aye Taylorbaby I know you have had horrible things happen and if I could use that and any other problematic birth you've had (with your name on it ofcourse) then I hope people will see that even an experienced breeder can have terrible things happen and it's safer to spay their cat than risk it.


thing is people dont listen, I always bring up the good and bad, people listen to what they want to, and when things go bad I think blinkers come on and a 'it wont happen to me' feeling comes over them!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Gratch, as soon as I have any time at all I will give you a lot of help on this. In 18 years of breeding I have seen quite a lot. What I am not prepared to do is lend credence to any sort of scaremongering. The plain fact is that most births are straightforward, it's just that if things go wrong they often go very badly wrong.

Liz


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

lizward said:


> Gratch, as soon as I have any time at all I will give you a lot of help on this. In 18 years of breeding I have seen quite a lot. What I am not prepared to do is lend credence to any sort of scaremongering. The plain fact is that most births are straightforward, it's just that if things go wrong they often go very badly wrong.
> 
> Liz


Thankyou very much liz. I agree there shouldn't be scaremongering but people should be aware of the possibilities and hopefully discouraged from actively breeding if that's what they come on seeking. That seems to be a gripe alot of people have - that it will be seen as a 'How to' guide. I maintain that the majority of people using it will be people who already have pregnant moggies and we can do our best to educate them on the options and how to deal with problems if they go ahead and arise.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

great idea gratch!!!  hate it when people come on asking for advice and help with their cat being pregnant or possibility of being pregnant and people just jump down their throats...in my head its not the way to go about things as someone mentioned earlier on some people may not want to spay while queen is pregnant so a good idea to advise on both angles along with pro's and con's! I also have to agree there are not many kittens going around here for a while (not that iv noticed) so people are selling kittens for £80!! moggies too!! will keep an eye on the thread and if i feel i can contribute in any way i will!  xx


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Gratch said:


> Thankyou very much liz. I agree there shouldn't be scaremongering but people should be aware of the possibilities and hopefully discouraged from actively breeding if that's what they come on seeking. That seems to be a gripe alot of people have - that it will be seen as a 'How to' guide. I maintain that the majority of people using it will be people who already have pregnant moggies and we can do our best to educate them on the options and how to deal with problems if they go ahead and arise.


As long as you remember Gratch that Lizs cats are specifically selected for their suitability for breeding purposes.That is they are the right age, they have the right temperaments, she knows their background, they are health checked and health tested and she is selecting the stud for the exact same qualities and mating two compatible cats.Remember this cant be compared to people with a shy undersized 7 month old pregnant moggie who has mated with the irritable aggressive tom from down the road, and possibly also mated with the diseased harry and oversized dick from round the corner. If there are no similarities between the raw products there will be little similarities between the end results.

With regards to this initiative being seen by some as a how to guide for moggie breeding, I just phoned two shelters, both have various leaflets on the premises on various animal welfare issues. I asked them if they would be interested in carrying a leaflet about what to do when you find your moggie cat accidentally pregnant. I got a very cool negative response from one, and a very hostile negative from the other. Since these are the people dealing with this daily, and they know what theyre doing, doesnt that tell you anything? It suggested to me that they too viewed it as a How to guide for moggie breeding. I think before going ahead with this it would be a good idea to get in touch with various cat rescues and ask for their input.

I know you think this can do no damage, but Im not sure you are right, and the people best positioned to advice on this are those whose day job is cat rescue. The last thing you want to achieve is the exact opposite to what you set out to achieve.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

catsmum said:


> As long as you remember Gratch that Lizs cats are specifically selected for their suitability for breeding purposes.That is they are the right age, they have the right temperaments, she knows their background, they are health checked and health tested and she is selecting the stud for the exact same qualities and mating two compatible cats.


Well, apart from those that are entered in the outcross breeding programme


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

catsmum said:


> 7 month old pregnant moggie who has mated with the irritable aggressive tom from down the road, and possibly also mated with the diseased harry and oversized dick from round the corner.


Great post, which I agree with entirely but can I just say, very quickly as I must dash out to the library, that I wish I'd had more experience of oversized dicks in my time.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Great post, which I agree with entirely but can I just say, very quickly as I must dash out to the library, that I wish I'd had more experience of oversized dicks in my time.


You randy mare


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Great post, which I agree with entirely but can I just say, very quickly as I must dash out to the library, that I wish I'd had more experience of oversized dicks in my time.


My eyes are burning!!!!!:blink:


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Great post, which I agree with entirely but can I just say, very quickly as I must dash out to the library, that I wish I'd had more experience of oversized dicks in my time.


Oh, I say


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Great post, which I agree with entirely but can I just say, very quickly as I must dash out to the library, that I wish I'd had more experience of oversized dicks in my time.


Maybe if you are not "nice" in this life, you will come back as a moggy that is left unspayed and perhaps your wish will come true then.....


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Oh, that'd be a double edged sword. All those babies to look after, I don't think so  I did always think though that I'd like to come back as someone's (spayed) cat that lives in the lap of luxury. I've no idea how the saying it's a dog life ever took off!


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

hobbs2004 said:


> Well, apart from those that are entered in the outcross breeding programme


point taken 



gskinner123 said:


> Great post, which I agree with entirely but can I just say, very quickly as I must dash out to the library, that I wish I'd had more experience of oversized dicks in my time.


oh what a typo, cant believe i actually typed that 

I could have made Harry oversized, but then Dick would have been diseased:smile:

back to the drawing board


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I think this is a great idea ........I dont think its advocating irressponsible breeding as most people who come on for advice about pregnant cats are just that - already pregnant - I think if you can advise but also educate these people ie help with the pregnancy but also make it very clear that we do not condone non netured moggies then surely thats half the battle won?


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

I have actually explained to someone today that spaying is much healthier for a female/male cat!!! 

They actually took in what I said!!!  They had no clue it was better for the cat, even if it was an indoor cat

(She is a very good friend and is wanting one of my kittens, which will be an indoor, but I explained that they can get a lot of health problems from not being spayed/neutered, even if they never went out)

She took it all on board and sed she never knew that and would definately get the kitten spayed 

Really proud of myself


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> I think this is a great idea ........I dont think its advocating irressponsible breeding as most people who come on for advice about pregnant cats are just that - already pregnant - I think if *you can advise but also educate these people ie help with the pregnancy but also make it very clear that we do not condone non netured moggies* then surely thats half the battle won?


Not just moggies, but also pedigree cats that aren't on the active register. That imho is just as important as pedigree breeding, by ethical breeders, as it's done to a certain standard


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

dougal22 said:


> Not just moggies, but also pedigree cats that aren't on the active register. That imho is just as important as pedigree breeding, by ethical breeders, as it's done to a certain standard


Yes! I agree  good point


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

dougal22 said:


> And you are banging your head at my previous post why? As yours is the only valid opinion? Because no-one else is entitled to their opinion?
> 
> You seem to do a lot of head banging. Perhaps as another member has suggested, you concentrate your energy into practical help instead of banging your head on here. Real effort will give you a 'real' reason to bang your head.


Yes, yes I am. You are entitled to an opinion, but geez, I really don't get how you can think that educating people about how to handle a pregnancy will make them more likely to be irresponsible. If you sent your hypothetical daughter to read information on preventing pregnancy and what to do when the test shows up positive, do you think it would make her say to herself "well, that's some mighty interesting info. Think I'll go get pregnant and see if any of it makes any sense?" Of course not, unless she was already determined to get pregnant. Same thing here.

I don't often bang my head--it just fit 2 posts in a row. And how do you and Amethyst know that I don't do anything practical? Oh, that's right, you don't. But jumping to conclusions, jumping on soap boxes, and making wild suppositions is fun and easy.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Great post, which I agree with entirely but can I just say, very quickly as I must dash out to the library, that I wish I'd had more experience of oversized dicks in my time.


this has to be the post of the month, doesn't it? :lol:

Liz


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

dagny0823 said:


> Yes, yes I am. You are entitled to an opinion, but geez, I really don't get how you can think that educating people about how to handle a pregnancy will make them more likely to be irresponsible.


i asked this question earlier but will ask it again

if this is such a good idea why dont shelters have this information available on their websites, or in leaflet form to pick up on the premises?

yes it could be they havent thought of it or dont have the time to assemble it

or it could be they have thought of it and written it off as more potential harm than potential good

the two shelters i contacted yesterday were, putting it mildly, not in the least interested in carrying this kind of information.

should we just ignore the people that do this as day job and assume we know better?


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

catsmum said:


> i asked this question earlier but will ask it again
> 
> if this is such a good idea why dont shelters have this information available on their websites, or in leaflet form to pick up on the premises?
> 
> ...


Of course they have huge amounts of experience and I wouldnt ignore what they say for one moment - but in all fairness rescue centres are just that and imo they are concentrating their efforts on that they are not going to get people coming to them on a regular basis saying my cat is pregnant what shall I do? they deal unfortunately with the aftermath of irressponsible breeding.

This is a forum where many of the members come for advice on their cats already pregnant - so it is more relevant to have this information here then it is at a cat rescue centre - surely if we can educate and guide people who have a pregnant cat so they in future do not allow their cat to get pregnant and even tell others they know who have pets what they have learnt here then that is something positive achieved? The reality is we are never going to be able to get to these people who come on here before the event has taken place - but once here then this is our OPPORTUNITY to educate so they dont make the same mistake.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I don't know where I stand on this one, having never had the misfortune of an accidental litter, but it is a good initiative. In fact, Gratch is the ideal advocate because she has been there, done that and got the T-shirt and wouldn't recommend it. I am not sure if people would actually read the advice, though. Most of the OPs requesting advice don't seem to have put much research into their cat's reproductive health beforehand. Dunno really.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> they are concentrating their efforts on that they are not going to get people coming to them on a regular basis saying my cat is pregnant what shall I do? they deal unfortunately with the aftermath of irressponsible breeding.


i would say they are in the perfect position to know all the ins and out of this, better than most of us on here. they rehome the kittens so they are also in the perfect position to educate, and they do educate on many matters like spaying, just not how to deal with an "accidental" pregnancy. They could give the information away with the kittens, it could be there to be picked up off the counter when people come to look at kittens, they have leaflets on many other cat welfare matters, or web pages with information. yet they dont want a part of it. Having approached two rescues with this idea and listened to what they had to say, I personally wouldnt discount their opinions on not wanting to do this. I think they made very valid points, as others have said, there IS a fine line between helping and condoning/encouraging. I personally wouldnt do this without getting the backing and expertise from a good few reuptable shelters.

but that is just my opinion and i do think shelters are far more in the know reagrds this than all of us here in the forum put together, they deal with the reality of it daily, we just talk about it in an abstract sense


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> but that is just my opinion and i do think shelters are far more in the know reagrds this than all of us here in the forum put together, they deal with the reality of it daily, we just talk about it in an abstract sense


Well said catsmum, I think if a few more members helped out in a practical way they would see many things very differently


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

catsmum said:


> i would say they are in the perfect position to know all the ins and out of this, better than most of us on here. they rehome the kittens so they are also in the perfect position to educate, and they do educate on many matters like spaying, just not how to deal with an "accidental" pregnancy. They could give the information away with the kittens, it could be there to be picked up off the counter when people come to look at kittens, they have leaflets on many other cat welfare matters, or web pages with information. yet they dont want a part of it. Having approached two rescues with this idea and listened to what they had to say, I personally wouldnt discount their opinions on not wanting to do this. I think they made very valid points, as others have said, there IS a fine line between helping and condoning/encouraging. I personally wouldnt do this without getting the backing and expertise from a good few reuptable shelters.
> 
> but that is just my opinion and i do think shelters are far more in the know reagrds this than all of us here in the forum put together, they deal with the reality of it daily, we just talk about it in an abstract sense


Yes I never said their experience was not invaluable of course it is and all of what you have said I agree with - but we are talking about what happens on this forum.......surely it cannot be a bad thing to help educate? why do you all see it as a negative?? Im going to my local rescue this weekend to drop off some towels and some food etc and Im going to speak with them and see what they say about it....


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Well said catsmum, I think if a few more members helped out in a practical way they would see many things very differently


You do NOT know what many members here do on a practical basis. what is this now a competition ???? do I care any less than you because you actively work in rescue??

What I will say is that some people on here who help with rescue have become very desensitised to the situation and are extremely hard and unforgiving and quite frankly very hostile ......now obviously they see neglect day in day out but so do many people in many proffessions - sometimes you just have to rise above it and just be there for the cat.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> sometimes you just have to rise above it and just be there for the cat.


Which is why it's so important to find the right home, even if it means turning people down ... and having to deal with their hostility.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Which is why it's so important to find the right home, even if it means turning people down ... and having to deal with their hostility.


I agree!! I always agree with what is said ! just not how - I have to deal with hostile customers from time to time too but that does not mean I have to be unprofessional and stoop to that level also. We should all be fighting from the same corner - if this new sticky can help educate these people from letting their cat get pregnant again then I dont understand why anyone would be against it.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

catsmum said:


> i asked this question earlier but will ask it again
> 
> if this is such a good idea why dont shelters have this information available on their websites, or in leaflet form to pick up on the premises?
> 
> ...


Probably because for it to be a shelter where people go to put their animals/adopt they aren't looking for care for an already pregnant animal, which is what alot of people come here for.

Edit: also if you can PM me the details of these rescues I'll give them a call tomorrow and argue my case. Maybe you put it forward in a negative tone and they didn't get the chance to see the positives.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Well said catsmum, I think if a few more members helped out in a practical way they would see many things very differently


I personally feel taking part in this WOULD be practical.


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