# Racing for their lives!



## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I think the Grand National is looming, and just thought that I would post this link for people to see. Hopefully, it may make you think twice before parting with your money. 
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/pdf/leaflets/grandnational.pdf


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

I Totally agree with your post Nina!!
They all think i'm weird at work when they do the sweep stake thing for the National, i refuse to part with my money to pay for the what people call entertainment.. when in reality its a lottery on equestrian lives!

Just Ban It! 
Pity people who bet on that mass slaughter don't put there money to better uses like sponsoring a whale, or donating to there local dog/cat rescue. i bet then, the world would be a better place.


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## thedogsmother (Aug 28, 2008)

As a kid my dads company used to sponser a trip to watch the grand national every year, I used to go with my parents, when I was about 12 I was watching as a horse fell and broke its leg and I later found out it had to be pts. I never went with them again and I can't bring myself to watch it on tv, I could still hear the noise the horse was making above the crowd. I am not anti-racing but I do feel that particular race is too dangerous.


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## MissD (Mar 2, 2009)

Hello, Miss Naive here.....

I used to think that dog and horse racing was ok - in my ignorance I had no reason to think otherwise. I even went to Catford racing once and having watched the dogs thought to myself that they all had a thoroughly good time chasing the furry thing (I know, I'm stupid and assumed they were well loved and cared for).

It's only recently that I'm finding out about the gruesome lives of some of these animals and would never support animal racing again. The best thing is to educate people as much as possible:thumbup1:


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I certainly think that there is lot more awareness these days when it comes to horse and greyhound racing.

I remember as a youngster joining a sweepstake on the Grand National, and it wasn't until I reached my teens that I realised just how barbaric the race was. 

Every year there are horses who are seriously injured or worse killed or shot. Who can forget the year, not so long ago when a horse was shot actually on the course, since its suffering was so great.

I am just amazed, that the RSPCA don't do more to highlight the cruelty involved.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

such a cruel race, i hate it!


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## MissD (Mar 2, 2009)

Nina said:


> I certainly think that there is lot more awareness these days when it comes to horse and greyhound racing.
> 
> I remember as a youngster joining a sweepstake on the Grand National, and it wasn't until I reached my teens that I realised just how barbaric the race was.
> 
> ...


It's awful to say it, but I think it all comes down to money.

I wouldn't envy the RSPCA or any other organisation that tries to take on such a huge money-making activity. I'm assuming (in my cynical way) that the government also receive revenue from gambling and as such would have no motivation to end the cruelty.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

MissD said:


> It's awful to say it, but I think it all comes down to money.
> 
> I wouldn't envy the RSPCA or any other organisation that tries to take on such a huge money-making activity. I'm assuming (in my cynical way) that the government also receive revenue from gambling and as such would have no motivation to end the cruelty.


Yes, you are absolutely right. British Governments are quick to downcry cruelty abroad, but do little when its right under their nose.

At least they could shorten the race, and lower the jumps. At least this would give the poor creatures more of a chance. But perhaps horses deaths are all part of the thrill!!!!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2009)

The Grand National fences were lowered several years ago


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

rona said:


> The Grand National fences were lowered several years ago


Best lower them some more then i guess, or even better, do away with them all together! in my humble opinion.. lol


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

rona said:


> The Grand National fences were lowered several years ago


Not enough rona. Horses are still dieing.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

Ban it completely - it is a horrific race when virtually a year passes without a death.............


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## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

i totally agree with nina too ban the dam cruel race i cant watch it.


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## basi (Nov 9, 2007)

I hate it and dread it every year. I also never took part in my works sweepstake either.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Even looking at this race from a business point of view, why would someone pay so much for a horse, knowing that it could be destroyed or be killed outright, following a darn race!

At least the jockeys have a choice, to ride or not.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

rona said:


> The Grand National fences were lowered several years ago


very true.

if you went and saw those fences for yourself you would realise that the fences on big x-country courses and at top showjuming comps are infact bigger, wider and more solid...and horses die on those courses too...humans too.

whether you like racing or not, its a multi-million pound business, and is run as that exactly, it wont go away or change, so people who dont support it just dont watch it, and dont try to change peoples opinions by shoving animal rights groups links everywhere (i dont see you posting links about how cruel eventing and showjumping is? despite PETA being on it)...half the time their facts arent correct (otherwise they'd see that flat racing is actually worse than hurdles).

respect each others views


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2009)

I could be wrong but I don't think that there have been any fatalties for maybe three of four years now, as Rona has said they have not only lowered the fences they have also reduced the amount of runners if I remember right.

Praying they all finish safely
DT


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

i personally think any event where horses regularly die should be banned, humans have a choice they dont!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

turkeylad said:


> Ban it completely - it is a horrific race when virtually a year passes without a death.............


Jees!!!!

Do you just grab floating comments from the air surrounding you???? Horses die at meetings all year round but because the Grand National gets the most coverage and so the fatalities are glamourised, even though it's not the biggest race, it gets the most hostility shown to it.

My dad is, and my grandad was, really into horse racing. They mainly concentrated on the flat season and specialised in the sprints (8F max) and as a kid I was taken to every racetrack in the British Isles when my dad was promoting his book. I still go to the odd race day with friends and there are a few racing stables around where I live. These horses are worth a fortune. Fair enough the big winners are worth a heck of a lot more but even a 50/1 will set you back over £20K. They have been bred to run through countless genrations and it is runnign and jumping they love to do.

I do not know of a single owner, trainer or jockey that has entered a horse into any race for the sole purpose of casuing it pain and distress.

Yes the jumps have been lowered and narrowed to make it easier for the horses but soem will argue that this has removed some of the specticle for thoroughly testing the horses and making it a true lottery of which will come home to victory. A number of 100/1 outsiders have won the race in it's history and it is because of these chances that it draws big crowds. Nobody in the stands goes to puposefully watch a horse die. Hedgehunter is a horse that springs to mind for falling at the last in 2004, Winning in 2005 and finishing 2nd in 2006. Not a bad run for the hardest horse race of them all.
Oh, let's not forget Jack Nicholson's old buddy Red Rum. Suffering froma incurable bone desease in his hoof all of his life he was initially a sprint horse but as luck would have it he turned out to be the greatest horse ever to run the longest race. 1973 - won, 1974 - won, 1975 - 2nd, 1976 - 2nd, 1977 - won. Died aged 30.

But let's turn our attention to what can happen to the best of them: Best Mate. One of the most loved chase horses of all time. Won the Gold Cup three years in a row but it should have been 5 due to injury and the F&M crisis, won several other major meets and then died of a heart attack aged 10 after being pulled up by the jockey. The horse had been ill as a foal and the owner had not entered him into as many races as others do but instead spent time conditioning him into a phenominal horse - 22 starts, 14 wins and 7 2nd placements. He never fell once.

Of course these are all legendary races so they make the headlines for the right reasons but just how many horses are PTS after show jumping, eventing or polo due to injury, exhaustion of other aliments? It's not just horse racing. How many are shot for meat world wide? How many don't get the opporunity to do what they love the most but instead are tied up and left all day with no water and little food? How many are worked to death on farms across the world? Race horses are probably only second to humans when it comes to health care, sports science and medical centres.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

person above has many good points.

the national ist the only race horses die in infact the meeting is over 3 days and more horses die in the other races than the national (as seen over the past few years) and no fatalities in the national in 2000 but 5 in the other races.

flat racing produces more fatalities than hurdles...they are raced much harder and are ore often than not pulled up lame, break egs mid race and other things and shot....more than the national.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Oh so because more die in other races it's okay then? I don't see where anyone has said they are against JUST the GN, it's racing...full stop. Flat, point to point whatever involves money changing hands then the animals welfare comes secondary. Dog racing including. 

That's all I have to say cos obviously you have your views and I have mine, mine of which happily comes down on the side of the animals, as always with me they'll come first cos they don't have the voice I have. :cornut:


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

JSR said:


> Oh so because more die in other races it's okay then? I don't see where anyone has said they are against JUST the GN, it's racing...full stop. Flat, point to point whatever involves money changing hands then the animals welfare comes secondary. Dog racing including.
> 
> That's all I have to say cos obviously you have your views and I have mine, mine of which happily comes down on the side of the animals, as always with me they'll come first cos they don't have the voice I have. :cornut:


just because people support racing it doesnt mean that they arent animal lovers.

its just a split of opinion, like hunting too. its not worth arguing about, but people should look up facts first.

and no....you cant just be against the GN and not other racing, that wouldnt really make sense.

anyway...the debate on a horse forum i use is much better informed than this one, esp as it comes from horse owners.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Vixxen said:


> very true.
> 
> if you went and saw those fences for yourself you would realise that the fences on big x-country courses and at top showjuming comps are infact bigger, wider and more solid...and horses die on those courses too...humans too.
> 
> ...


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

it wasnt aimed directly at you....but in general.

yes aintree has fatalities, but not ALL in the national....same as every other course in the country has its fatalities, the big courses and the smaller, the gold cup claims lives too, but no one jumps on that like they do the GN do they? despite the fact that a few years ago 5 horses died in one gold cup meeting due to the heat, surely thats just as bad as how you see the GN as being?, it is not about the course length or the jumps...it boils down to the fitness of the horse and whether it can run it or not. As i said, those fences arent as bad as some....i mean do you see the puissance as cruel too? 7ft 2" fence is slightly bigger than the 5'2" GN hedges, do you see eventing as cruel with its solid feces and rotational falls?

people shouldnt single out the GN, fatalities happen all year round, countrywide, hurdles and flat...but no one starts rants about those.

As a horse owner i choose not to push my horse to limits like that but im not making money am i? its a business, not a love.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

The race should be banned or discontinued at least in its present forum. It is no more than a money making event where people care not a jot for the horses who are pushed to their very limit.

Many people, who wouldn't normally bet on horseracing, have a 'harmless flutter' on the Grand National. The big race is the climax of a three-day meeting that cost the lives of 30 horses between 1998 and 2008. 

It is a deliberately punishing and hazardous event: longer than any other (four and a half miles) and presenting 30 uniquely high and awkward obstacles. It features perilous drops, ditches and sharp turns. 

Many of the horses will have never encountered a race like this before. Usually 40 horses take part in this race which is excessively over crowded for a horse race, and further adds to the risk of collisions and falls. Only one third are likely to finish!

Statiscally more than 400 horses are raced to death every year, usually dieing as a result of racecourse or training injuries. Others are destroyed in their yards or killed at slaughterhouses after being assessed as no-hopers. 

This darn 'sport' is only kept alive through betting income and racecourse attendance fees. Anyone betting on this race is subjecting these magnificent creatures to potential injury, or at worse death :cursing:


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## joote (Dec 11, 2008)

years from now i hope they look back on this with disgust!!! and see it for how barberick it really is!!!


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

joote said:


> years from now i hope they look back on this with disgust!!! and see it for how barberick it really is!!!


seeing as its been happening for over 100 years i doubt that...

and i could think of much more "barbaric" things involving animals than horse racing, people might want to consider that....and actually go about getting those things banned instead....dog fighting, fox hunting in ireland, horse fighting in phillipines, bear dancing, shooting season, bull fighting much? or is the GN just as barbaric as those *rolls eyes*


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## joote (Dec 11, 2008)

Vixxen said:


> seeing as its been happening for over 100 years i doubt that...
> 
> and i could think of much more "barbaric" things involving animals than horse racing, people might want to consider that....and actually go about getting those things banned instead....dog fighting, fox hunting in ireland, horse fighting in phillipines, bear dancing, shooting season, bull fighting much? or is the GN just as barbaric as those *rolls eyes*


well of course those events are i dont think you'll find me saying they're not? This is afterall a nation that claims to love animals and treat them well, so excuse me for not bringing up all the other awful animal cruelty that goes on the world after all this is a thread about th GN not animal cruelty worldwide or in general!


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Vixxen said:


> seeing as its been happening for over 100 years i doubt that...
> 
> and i could think of much more "barbaric" things involving animals than horse racing, people might want to consider that....and actually go about getting those things banned instead....dog fighting, fox hunting in ireland, horse fighting in phillipines, bear dancing, shooting season, bull fighting much? or is the GN just as barbaric as those *rolls eyes*


Since this is a caring animal/pet forum, I think you will find that all of the above have been discussed on the forum at one time or another. The Grand National is happening on Saturday, hence it is topical now!


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## joote (Dec 11, 2008)

exactly my point.... and i'm not talking hundreds of years i'm talking thousands, the way we look back on things that were normal in the 1800's and would not be accepted these days


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

joote said:


> exactly my point.... and i'm not talking hundreds of years i'm talking thousands, the way we look back on things that were normal in the 1800's and would not be accepted these days


the national started in the 1800's....


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

Nina said:


> Since this is a caring animal/pet forum, I think you will find that all of the above have been discussed on the forum at one time or another. The Grand National is happening on Saturday, hence it is topical now!


the gold cup was a few weeks ago, wheres your rant about how cruel that is? and your "statistics" on how many horses died?


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

joote said:


> exactly my point.... and i'm not talking hundreds of years i'm talking thousands, the way we look back on things that were normal in the 1800's and would not be accepted these days


I do hope that you are right.

Sadly animals do not have a voice. I just hope that anyone thinking of placing a bet tomorrow will realise what these beautiful horses go through to provide their entertainment  Is it really worth it?


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

Nina said:


> I do hope that you are right.
> 
> Sadly animals do not have a voice. I just hope that anyone thinking of placing a bet tomorrow will realise what these beautiful horses go through to provide their entertainment  Is it really worth it?


no idea, why dont you go and ask the packed betting offices? actually the one i used today was pretty empty, apart from the odd old gambling addict regular.


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## joote (Dec 11, 2008)

Vixxen said:


> the gold cup was a few weeks ago, wheres your rant about how cruel that is? and your "statistics" on how many horses died?


actually Nina had alot of personal things going on in her life a few weeks ago, some of which could have involved raising awareness for issues like this, who are you to asume if shes not posting on heere shes not doing something else?


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

joote said:


> actually Nina had alot of personal things going on in her life a few weeks ago, some of which could have involved raising awareness for issues like this, who are you to asume if shes not posting on heere shes not doing something else?


er i didnt say she wasnt doing something else? i couldnt give **** if she was out protesting about racing, or god knows what else, we all have lives outside of the internet (i mean god help most of you if you knew what i did outside of the net, im sure you'd all pass judgement), all i say is broaden your horizons on subjects like this.

heated, adult debates are healthy, petty arguments are not....i actually had a change of opinion on another horse sport recently due to good, informative information from people who knew what they were on about.

and if youre so against it then i didnt see you posting about the gold cup either...and you post all about your personal life so couldnt really use that as an excuse.

now do exuse me before i really lose my rag, im back off to a horse forum where they are educated horse owers and know about horse sports.


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## joote (Dec 11, 2008)

Vixxen said:


> no idea, why dont you go and ask the packed betting offices? actually the one i used today was pretty empty, apart from the odd old gambling addict regular.


you seem to be dodging the point anyway, it does involve animal cruelty there are no two ways about it.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

joote said:


> you seem to be dodging the point anyway, it does involve animal cruelty there are no two ways about it.


actually....heres a statistic for you....more horses each year are killed on our roads than in the GN...so does that mean us horse owners shouldnt ride out and put our horses at risk of injury or death? we surely must be cruel too.

there is a degree of cruelty in most horse sports.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Vixxen said:


> er i didnt say she wasnt doing something else? i couldnt give **** if she was out protesting about racing, or god knows what else, we all have lives outside of the internet (i mean god help most of you if you knew what i did outside of the net, im sure you'd all pass judgement), all i say is broaden your horizons on subjects like this.
> 
> heated, adult debates are healthy, petty arguments are not....i actually had a change of opinion on another horse sport recently due to good, informative information from people who knew what they were on about.
> 
> ...


We are each entitled to our opinion, but the one thing I refuse to do is get personal. I have made my point as you have made yours. It is up to other people what they chose to do.

Thank you Joote


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## MissD (Mar 2, 2009)

Vixxen

It seems as though you've had a bad experience/argument with other people passionately against the GN and have taken this one personally.

You're quite right, every one is entitled to their own views. However, as I mentioned early on in this thread - educating people to what does go on & how these sports are run are key to allowing people to make their own informed decision. I was completely unaware of the fatalaties in this sport & now I know, I choose not to support it.

By saying that we're not knocking other sports strikes me that you're judging us on your previous experience/argument with someone else.

One of my favourite films is Seabiscuit


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

MissD said:


> Vixxen
> 
> It seems as though you've had a bad experience/argument with other people passionately against the GN and have taken this one personally.
> 
> ...


actually as mentioned, an argument with fellow riders over the GN is a lot more adult and educated, but maybe that is because they know more of horses and the sport....and alot (including myself) have actually worked in racing and have seen what really goes on first hand and kinda disapprove when people gloss over facts, im not saying there is no cruelty or it is sugarcoated, im just saying its not all that bad. 

as for inforing people and alowing them to make deisions/change opinion, i agree...only recetly hae i actually changed my opinion on hunting in this country, and believe me it took a long time and a lot of input from people who take part in it to swing my view, but it does happen. i was very close-minded about it, but now i have opened up to it and seen the other side.

seabiscuit...isnt that kentucky derby? now that *is* notorious for fatalities, mainly a 2 year old filly raced to the ground, won and shot within seconds of finishing due to her ruined tendons etc.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

MissD said:


> Vixxen
> 
> It seems as though you've had a bad experience/argument with other people passionately against the GN and have taken this one personally.
> 
> ...


I know a lot of horse owners and indeed I work for many who do not support the Grand National for the very reasons that I outlined earlier. I just find this particular race forces the poor horses to the brink and to the point of exhaustion.

I do not know that I can add anything further than previously. I do think it is a great shame that some threads deteriate to the point of getting personal. Vixxen is of course entitled to those views as I am to mine.

Whatever happends in my personal life, would never prevent me from highlighting what I feel, is animal cruelty.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2009)

What about polo then?


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> What about polo then?


as a cruel sport? i doubt many people actually know that much about it...its not as high profile as racing or eventing.


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## MissD (Mar 2, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> actually as mentioned, an argument with fellow riders over the GN is a lot more adult and educated, but maybe that is because they know more of horses and the sport....and alot (including myself) have actually worked in racing and have seen what really goes on first hand and kinda disapprove when people gloss over facts, im not saying there is no cruelty or it is sugarcoated, im just saying its not all that bad.
> 
> as for inforing people and alowing them to make deisions/change opinion, i agree...only recetly hae i actually changed my opinion on hunting in this country, and believe me it took a long time and a lot of input from people who take part in it to swing my view, but it does happen. i was very close-minded about it, but now i have opened up to it and seen the other side.
> 
> seabiscuit...isnt that kentucky derby? now that *is* notorious for fatalities, mainly a 2 year old filly raced to the ground, won and shot within seconds of finishing due to her ruined tendons etc.


I'm sure fellow riders will be better educated as it is their field, pardon the pun. Personally, knowing that horses die has made my mind up to choose not to support the GN or any horse racing. I'm not quite sure where glossing over the facts come into play there. I'm learning through personal experience and evidence about greyhound racing and am appalled to be honest. Greyhounds are bread and butter to the (some?) trainers from what I can gather and they couldn't care less about the dogs as animals.

Most people on this forum care very much about animals. I used to belong to an anti-hunt group myself so I'm pleased this has been outlawed.

I'm sure animal lovers (like myself) just knowing that there are deaths involved in the sports will decide to opt out and let others know.

I really don't see anything on this thread for you to react adversely to tbh.

Oh, please don't burst my bubble re Seabiscuit I love the story because they loved Seabiscuit very much and he fought back against all the odds


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

MissD said:


> Oh, please don't burst my bubble re Seabiscuit I love the story because they loved Seabiscuit very much and he fought back against all the odds


he was a true racehorse  much like shergar....you only have to watch the footage of shergar winning the derby to see that he loved it (do watch it on youtube if you havent seen it), he was maginificant...as was red rum, desert orchid, arkle etc....you know from watching them that they loved what they were doing and put their all in 

the american racing is a little different to here hence the kentucky derby having quite a bad name when it comes to cruelty. same with the french trotters too.

oh and i should add...i dont know uch about the ways of greyhoud racing but im actually going to stay with a breeder, trainer and racer of greyhounds in irelad for a few months this year so i guess i'll find out all about it first hand.


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## MissD (Mar 2, 2009)

Nina said:


> I know a lot of horse owners and indeed I work for many who do not support the Grand National for the very reasons that I outlined earlier. I just find this particular race forces the poor horses to the brink and to the point of exhaustion.
> 
> I do not know that I can add anything further than previously. I do think it is a great shame that some threads deteriate to the point of getting personal. Vixxen is of course entitled to those views as I am to mine.
> 
> Whatever happends in my personal life, would never prevent me from highlighting what I feel, is animal cruelty.


Hi Nina - and I hadn't realised that the GN is the longest race of this nature so another thing I've learnt.

I will certainly be spreading the word to the ignorant, of which I was one once. What they then choose to do is up to them


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2009)

I would think that more horses and ponys lose there lives earlier then they should because they are sold to the knackers yard!! sad but true! Is this not cruel then?
DT


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I would think that more horses and ponys lose there lives earlier then they should because they are sold to the knackers yard!! sad but true! Is this not cruel then?
> DT


yes i agree...everyone look at this; Welcome to Equine Section (this site does a lot to help, and any awareness is good!)

if aything equine was cruel then it is the french/italian meat trade.....its not just racehorses who end up at knackers yards.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2009)

We have horse sales near us - the meat traders buy loads - I can't bear to go - I have a real happy story to tell - but no time now.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> We have horse sales near us - the meat traders buy loads - I can't bear to go - I have a real happy story to tell - but no time now.


which sales is that? im midlands too, but only know of the henley in arden sales, saw sec D colts going for £100 there....very sad.


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## MissD (Mar 2, 2009)

And to go off-topic briefly (sorry Nina). 

I know a dog breeder who is a very lovely, generous, intelligent lady. She breeds terriers and immediately has pts a pup if they do not tick all the boxes of the breed or are the runt.

I was absolutely gob-smacked - how could such a lovely person take away life for no 'good' reason imo? 

Vixxen: My Molly was an Irish bred greyhound although I had no history of whether she raced although it is very likely. Would be interested to know how your trainer friend treats the animals.....I've heard some cut off their tattooed ears before dumping their bodies so it can't be traced back to them

Back on topic - I'll not be supporting the GN.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

MissD said:


> Hi Nina - and I hadn't realised that the GN is the longest race of this nature so another thing I've learnt.
> 
> I will certainly be spreading the word to the ignorant, of which I was one once. What they then choose to do is up to them


Bless you  Lets all just pray to God, that they arrive safely back in their stables tomorrow afternoon.

Oh, may be worth mentioning that the majority of our clients/friends who are horse owners, do not support the Grand National or hunting.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

actually nina....did you see or hear about the express-eventing event in cardiff last year where mary king lost call again cavalier due to the jumps being terribly hard, indoors, sharp corers and solid with added pressure of speed? came down so hard and broke a massive bone (femur).

would be interested in your opinion on such an event if you are aware of it as it caused a very very big split in the equine world, and is actually compariable to the GN in regards to jumps, speed and pushing horses to limits.

same with hunting...im not asking if you support fox hunting (as it is banned and irrelevant) but do you have issues with flat out galloping around the countryside and over big hedges? as that is also similar.

im not provoking you or anything, just genuinely interested in your opinions and knowledge of other events.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2009)

MissD said:


> Hello, Miss Naive here.....
> 
> I used to think that dog and horse racing was ok - in my ignorance I had no reason to think otherwise. I even went to Catford racing once and having watched the dogs thought to myself that they all had a thoroughly good time chasing the furry thing (I know, I'm stupid and assumed they were well loved and cared for).
> 
> It's only recently that I'm finding out about the gruesome lives of some of these animals and would never support animal racing again. The best thing is to educate people as much as possible:thumbup1:


i race greyhounds they are very well looked after.we keep them when they are finished racing so do all the other racing people i know:blink:


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## MissD (Mar 2, 2009)

borderer said:


> i race greyhounds they are very well looked after.we keep them when they are finished racing so do all the other racing people i know:blink:


Hi Borderer.

Thank you - that pleases me immensely. I've only ever heard about the bad and hoped not all racers were treated in the same way.

A guy in my street bought a youngster and everyone was saying 'enter him and see how he does' - he was reluctant but did in the end. The dog won nearly every race he was in Another success story - although how much had been embellished, I don't know

So do you see bad practice or cruelty when you go racing?


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2009)

MissD said:


> Hi Borderer.
> 
> Thank you - that pleases me immensely. I've only ever heard about the bad and hoped not all racers were treated in the same way.
> 
> ...


i have seen bad practice i allways say something.i have not seen any cruelty but it does happen but it happens to a lot of animals


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## MissD (Mar 2, 2009)

borderer said:


> i have seen bad practice i allways say something.i have not seen any cruelty but it does happen but it happens to a lot of animals


You have my admiration for tackling bad practice. I think greyhounds are wonderful creatures - so sleek and slender.

I lost Molly just over a month ago and she and the breed stole a piece of my heart.....as well as a piece of the postman's leg Cruelty to poor old postmen


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2009)

MissD said:


> And to go off-topic briefly (sorry Nina).
> 
> I know a dog breeder who is a very lovely, generous, intelligent lady. She breeds terriers and immediately has pts a pup if they do not tick all the boxes of the breed or are the runt.
> 
> ...


It is not so long ago that many breeders practised such atrosities
White German Shepherds, White Boxes, Ridgebacks with insufficient ridges, and believe it or not Chocolate labs to name but a few.
DT


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

as far as i know, thats the only casualty of the 3 day meeting so far....and not in the GN!

he was a top horse.

EXOTIC DANCER DIES AT AINTREE | Sporting Life - Horse Racing News | Grand National, Aintree, Live Racing Results, Racecards


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Vixxen said:


> as far as i know, thats the only casualty of the 3 day meeting so far....and not in the GN!
> 
> he was a top horse.
> 
> EXOTIC DANCER DIES AT AINTREE | Sporting Life - Horse Racing News | Grand National, Aintree, Live Racing Results, Racecards


One too many in my book.

Back to your question. No, I was not aware of the story you are referring to. I do not really mix in the horse fraternity save my clients.

It is the Aintree meeting and the GN is particular that I and animal lovers object to and for the reasons that I explained earlier.

When I was younger, I also placed a bet on this race and won on quite a few occasions. However, I put this down to ignorance of youth and for many years have hoped that more would be done to spare the lives of these horses.

Yes, I appreciate that the jumps have been lowered, but some are still perilous and the 4 1/2 miles in far too long for any horse to endure.

This sport is only kept alive through betting income and racecourse attendance fees. The unknowing people may see it as just a harmless flutter, but horses pay with their lives.


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## poshmog (Mar 2, 2009)

Now I've read this topic with interest ,and whilst I'm not a fan of the GN as I spend the whole race praying that no horse falls fatally,I have to say there are far worse aspects of cruelty in the horse world and I've had horse's for more years than am willing to admit(way over 21!!).
There are horses being left to starve to death,barbarically assaulted,foal left dead on grass verge,horses burnt to death in their own stables,stolen and sent to the meat man,I could go on and on.
The one common denominator in the whole sorry mess are human beings!


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

i think it is unfair that some anti-race people say that no one cares when the horses fall, i remember when one man fell and had to be shot, i was there....the race world lost a true star that day, and everyone there was saddened, the atmosphere was awful....

YouTube - Tony Dobbin discusses the sad death of One Man with the BBC


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## poshmog (Mar 2, 2009)

I remember that,I shed atear or two that day,what a magnificent boy he was.
I was previleged enough to spend the day with desert orchid and his groom,Id never seen so much care ,his every need was met and he was gorgeous.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cant believe they put them through it & risk their lives if they "care" so much about them


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## poshmog (Mar 2, 2009)

Like I said theres good and bad ,and I'm not fond of racing ,but that desert orchid was one I saw for myself and he was looked after by his devoted groom for his efforts.
Now on the bad side, Hello Dandy(GN winner) was found abandoned in a field and rescued by TB rescue.
We will never stop this and the only thing that could be achieved is to make as safe as they possibly can,but whilst the punters demand the thrills and spills the money men behind this are going to oblige them.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

poshmog said:


> Like I said theres good and bad ,and I'm not fond of racing ,but that desert orchid was one I saw for myself and he was looked after by his devoted groom for his efforts.
> Now on the bad side, Hello Dandy(GN winner) was found abandoned in a field and rescued by TB rescue.
> We will never stop this and the only thing that could be achieved is to make as safe as they possibly can,but whilst the punters demand the thrills and spills the money men behind this are going to oblige them.


Sadly, I think you you correct 

As long as people continue to support this race, more horses will die. I absolutely understand your earlier statement regarding cruelty of horses in general. I was highlighting this particular race as its topical, but cruelty of any kind is inexcusable in whatever form.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Right enough's enough about horses being made to go through with a race. How many seasons of races have you watched? How many races have you watched? How many race reports have you read?

I have watched thousands of races during my life and when I am at my parent's I will watch racing all day with him as it brings us together for a day or two and we have a bit off a game guessing the winners.

Now, how many horses have you seen pulled out of a race days, hours or minutes before the start due to the fact that the backroom staff have deemed it unfit to race? How many horses on flat, hurdles or chases have you seen pulled up by the jockey and then asked why after and they say they "just weren't running right"? How many horses have you seen refuse a jump in hurdles, chases and eventing? The majority of horses don't make it round a course not by the fact they have fallen but because they have refused a jump, they were pulled up or they simply stopped running.

If you want to see a horse that loves what it does and was the best at what it did, watch Best Mate win the Ericsson Chase in 2003. Keep your eye on the jockey's arms and the reigns. Not once does he hold it back or whip it. That horse loved to run and knew how to win races almost by itself. It is a joy to watch that race and the horse that was bred to run it.

Now take Polo, hockey on horseback for Toffs. The game is split up into four 6-8minute periods called Chukkas. During each Chukka the rider will take a new horse in order for it to be fresh. The horse will be galloped into the ground, turned sharply and be bumped against others at high speeds risking falls and all for the entertainment of the smoked-salmon-eating gentry.

The you have the Il Palio in Italy. Now THAT is a "barbaric race" if you need a definition of the term. The Mongols have held horse races and games that have cost thousands of lives over time but you never hear animal rights barking on about them or people having strong opposed views. Hell, I will bet money on 90% of the people on here never hearing of the Mongol equivalent of the Olympics - Steppe Racing. These are the longest horse races in the world by a long way resulting in more deaths per festival than the whole Jockey Club Flat Season. Why isn't anyone banging on about that????

So dependent are people on the media to bring them images and sounds to fill their knowledge requirements most are limited to what they are told by groups and do not seek further education of other cultures and their traditions that are so unknown they think they have the worst on their doorstep.

Enough.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> If you want to see a horse that loves what it does and was the best at what it did, watch Best Mate win the Ericsson Chase in 2003. Keep your eye on the jockey's arms and the reigns. Not once does he hold it back or whip it. That horse loved to run and knew how to win races almost by itself. It is a joy to watch that race and the horse that was bred to run it.


Best Mate = true racehorse, he loved every minute of it and was up there with the best 

and i agree with everything you say.

a lot of people who take on ex-racehorses moan about the way they are and claim they are "scarred"...i wonder how they'd cope with ex-polo ponies


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

So we ban the Grand National what next:-

Flat racing

three day eventing

show jumping

Sledging with dogs

how about letting your dog off it lead in the park, in case it falls down a hole a breaks its leg, the list could go on. 

It's terrible that any animal dies, but most race horses don't, I really think you are going over the top with this. There is more cruelty in laboratories where animals are been tested for soap, makeup, shampoos ect. need I go on. These are the animals you would be making a point about.

Race horses are treated better us they get the best heath care. and lets face it, you can't make a horse jump over a fence if it does not what to do it.


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## Kathryn1 (Jan 30, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> So we ban the Grand National what next:-
> 
> Flat racing
> 
> ...


Totally agree with you on all this.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

My objection is to the Grand National for the reasons I have stated on previous threads. 

I would also point out, that I am not alone in my views.


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

Well as assumed, it happened today
Boss was cutting silly bits out of the newspaper for the Sweep Stake this morning as i arrived at work, i said nothing, but continued to chat as i watched him and held my breath for the inevitable Question.. 
Well it came as sure as seagulls poo on ya windscreen at the beach... 
'come on then Paul £2 for a horse.'
I had my speech rehearsed thanksto you lot out therewarning me this travesty was about to take place a gain.

My Reply to my boss
'Err No thanks, I refuse to sponsor the ongoing pointless slaughter of innocent horses for the pleasure and greed of the human race. '
This comment throw him a bit, and the idiot asked what i was talking about, again, thx to you lot i had the info to hand and made my point like a hammer hitting glass. 
Funny, he changed the subject after that.. but i have spent most of the day pointing out the statistics to all my colleagues at work and i think its going to be a flop. 
Horses 1
Grand National 0
Thats the way i like it!
thx guys!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Maybe they won't run it tomorrow now!!!!!


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

I'm sure they will, but i For one won't be watching that carnage.. pointless destruction of some of the best horses!!!!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Best horses at doing what though? If you didn't use them for racing over jumps what would you do with them?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

No racing, No horses.

They are not keeped as pets, so if you banned racing they would most likely be shot is that what some of you want, have them all killed. Still it would stop a few of them getting hurt over a few jumps.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> No racing, No horses.
> 
> They are not keeped as pets, so if you banned racing they would most likely be shot is that what some of you want, have them all killed. Still it would stop a few of them getting hurt over a few jumps.


There plenty of people out there that buy/breed horse just as pets not to be raced..
if racing was banned then racing yards would just stop breeding therefore no horses to be raced...!!, if they breed a horse thats foal doesnt turn out anygood what do you think happenes to that and after there life of racing they dont just get retiered do they..
Not all horse are breed and brought to be raced so i dont actually belive that its like horses will become exstinted or anything.
Race horses being shot now or after they have run themselves to death whats actually the difference?? 
Just my opoion.!!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> There plenty of people out there that buy/breed horse just as pets not to be raced..
> if racing was banned then racing yards would just stop breeding therefore no horses to be raced...!!, if they breed a horse thats foal doesnt turn out anygood what do you think happenes to that and after there life of racing they dont just get retiered do they..
> _Not all horse are breed and brought to be raced so i dont actually belive that its like horses will become exstinted or anything._
> Race horses being shot now or after they have run themselves to death whats actually the difference??
> Just my opoion.!!


I only meant race horses, and there are thousands of them, and I don't think many are run to death.

And just in case you are wondering NO I'm not having a bet on the National or any other race.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> I only meant race horses, and there are thousands of them, and I don't think many are run to death.
> 
> And just in case you are wondering NO I'm not having a bet on the National or any other race.


i know there are thousands, Well i think many are run to death even if the fact of them running aint killing them what about when they fall and break a leg they dont get treated just shoot..!
i wasnt wondering if you are betting or not as each to there own and just beacuse i dont agree and dont bet doesnt mean you cant.!we all have the right to make are own minds up wether its agreeing with it or not, if you agreed with it then that would be your choice and i woulnd like you any less for it xx


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

A young girl used to stable her horse at the house two down from my parents and that was arace horse that turned out to be rubbish. Buttons it was called, I can't remember it's stable name but Christ could that thing shift when it got going!!!!     

Nobody spends £50,000 minumum on a race horse just to shoot it. Race horses are bought and bred to race. Shire horses are bought and bred to pull huge loads and were the first ever tractors. Hobby horses are bought and bred to occupy children's time.

If I was a horse I would be more happy dieing what I loved the most than being stuck in a field or tethered up. In fact no matter what I am or what I do I hope I die doing something I love.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> A young girl used to stable her horse at the house two down from my parents and that was arace horse that turned out to be rubbish. Buttons it was called, I can't remember it's stable name but Christ could that thing shift when it got going!!!!
> 
> Nobody spends £50,000 minumum on a race horse just to shoot it. Race horses are bought and bred to race. Shire horses are bought and bred to pull huge loads and were the first ever tractors. Hobby horses are bought and bred to occupy children's time.
> 
> If I was a horse I would be more happy dieing what I loved the most than being stuck in a field or tethered up. In fact no matter what I am or what I do I hope I die doing something I love.


well what do you think they do with them then if there not going to make it in the racing world.?
And the rest is just you opoion which you are intitled too.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2009)

I for one do not agree with it, it's a horrible sport. So I wont be betting on it, I never have, never will.

I think this debate is like fox hunting... just goes around in circles. 

I just hope that none of the horses are hurt tomorrow... :nonod:


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2009)

RoseForTheDead said:


> I for one do not agree with it, it's a horrible sport. So I wont be betting on it, I never have, never will.
> 
> I think this debate is like fox hunting... just goes around in circles.
> 
> I just hope that none of the horses are hurt tomorrow... :nonod:


totally agree....


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Happy Paws said:


> No racing, No horses.
> 
> They are not keeped as pets, so if you banned racing they would most likely be shot is that what some of you want, have them all killed. Still it would stop a few of them getting hurt over a few jumps.


So are you saying that animals were put on this earth just to suit our needs  Of course there would be horses, 

We have been discussing the GN and the Aintree meeting in particular. At least flat racers have a chance! Sadly all the while people have this outlook on life, animals will continue to be raced to their death in this barbaric race, for the pure pleasure of having a flutter


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## Victorio (Feb 18, 2009)

I hate the Grand National. I don't understand why the races need to be made so difficult that horses need to die.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

Nina said:


> We have been discussing the GN and the Aintree meeting in particular. At least flat racers have a chance! Sadly all the while people have this outlook on life, animals will continue to be raced to their death in this barbaric race, for the pure pleasure of having a flutter


er as pointed out before.... flat racing is by far crueler than hurdles, so no they dont have a chace! have you ever SEEN a flat race (esp the lesser know tracks and with the arabs not tb's)? pulled up and shot for being lame, pulled up and shot for not being good eough, broken legs snapping mid race, raced to the ground then shot at the end for being injured due to the owners fault....that doesnt happen in hurdles....i suggest you look at both types of racing more closely. the kentucky derby is notoriously bad.

a lot of horses like to jump....ask anyone who enjoys jumping! and if a horse doesnt like jumping then there is no way on earth you will get it over them, they arent stupid, they have a very good mind of their own.

as for being shot when they are no good, some are, some arent....yes people spend 50k on a horse and have it shot if its no good, but they can afford it, others have a love and will re-home it, either through sales or privately....there are many racehorse rehab centes in the uk who take on ex racers, and re-break them to be riding horses....not ALL of them are killed for being no good

the aintree meeting makes 300 *million* each year...you honestly think making people stop betting will help? LOL.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

Interesting thread with some strong opinions....

Dare I ask is anybody having a bet  :crazy:


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

Here is a link to a list of horses that have lost their lives over the last 3 years on Uk race courses

Race Horse Death Watch

If anyone can give me records of how many pet riding horses that have died over this period and prove it is statistically less, then I would support a ban on jump racing.
These horses are athletes, the majority being cared for to a far higher standard than any other horse in this country.
Nobody watching Desert Orchid race or as I had, the pleasure of doing, seeing Red Rum parade at Aintree can doubt that so many of these horses love what they do.
I wish I could find the figures of deaths for the National meeting over a long period of time but couldn't, but I am sure that the death rate has increased in recent years, even though the fences have been lowered. Due I think to the fact that more inferior horses are being allowed to run at this meeting.
I think this has more to do with the vanity of the owners and trainers than a problem with the race and the course.

If someone could find the figures of deaths at the National meetings over maybe a 20 years period, I would be very grateful


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Interesting thread with some strong opinions....
> 
> Dare I ask is anybody having a bet  :crazy:


it is a good thread, ive had a bet at work


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

I won't bet or even look at it these days
I used to love it, but then Red Rum was my Hero horse


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> the aintree meeting makes 300 *million* each year...you honestly think making people stop betting will help? LOL.


No ones 'making' people stop betting. Everyone has an opinion, we're just simply voicing it, like you are.

Not betting won't stop it no, but atleast it wont add to them millions of people that _do_, making it an even bigger event...


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

rona said:


> Here is a link to a list of horses that have lost their lives over the last 3 years on Uk race courses
> 
> Race Horse Death Watch
> 
> ...


people dont know half of what goes on with pet horses...look how many thousands go for meat in france and italy each year, how many are injured hunting, jumpig, x-country, in the field, how may owners/dealers send them off to the knackers yard etc and sadly have to be PTS.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Nina said:


> So are you saying that animals were put on this earth just to suit our needs  Of course there would be horses,
> 
> 
> 1. Horses where here before we lived in caves.
> ...


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I hate it. With a passion. They push the horses to there limit and all in all its a cruel 'sport' and once again its for human enjoyment/entertainment. :mad2:
A horse collapsed straight after the race because it was pushed too far. Another horse hadn't raced jumps for a year but was still in the national. There was a stone of lead attached to another horse 'to make it fair on the others'

No one that was spoke to said they are hoping their horse comes out ok. No no it was all 'i hope it goes our way', 'i hope it wins' etc etc

Riles me right me up. :mad5:


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I hate it. With a passion. They push the horses to there limit and all in all its a cruel 'sport' and once again its for human enjoyment/entertainment. :mad2:
> A horse collapsed straight after the race because it was pushed too far. Another horse hadn't raced jumps for a year but was still in the national. There was a stone of lead attached to another horse 'to make it fair on the others'
> 
> No one that was spoke to said they are hoping their horse comes out ok. No no it was all 'i hope it goes our way', 'i hope it wins' etc etc


1. all owers/trainers hope their horses come out ok...do you think they are heartless?

2. stone of lead? first i heard, they can carry any weight within limits, its not "made fair", i'd like to see proof of that who was it and what was the weight? seeing as they were carryig all weight ranging to top weight.

3. even if a horse hadnt been out and jumped for a year that doesnt mean it hasnt been schooled every day over hurdles...you honestly think they send them in blind?!

4. horses collapse after races, not just the GN.

if you "despise" it then why have you watched it?


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## basi (Nov 9, 2007)

I'm sitting here praying for good news about the collapsed horse but i fear it won't be, just so sad and cruel


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

basi said:


> I'm sitting here praying for good news about the collapsed horse but i fear it won't be, just so sad and cruel


it was Hear the echo who collapsed, they havent yet said what happened, only that he collapsed before the post.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

oh dear lets hope the GN hasnt claimed yet another victim!


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## basi (Nov 9, 2007)

Vixxen said:


> it was Hear the echo who collapsed, they havent yet said what happened, only that he collapsed before the post.


I knew if was something Echo but couldn't remember, got everything crossed for it


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## basi (Nov 9, 2007)

Hear the Echo sadly has died R.I.P


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

So.. Yet another 500kg of dead meat wasted on entertaining the rich and heartless.. i wonder what more prove people need to ban it.

RIP Echo

**walks away**


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

i won the sweep in the pub 50 quid.so i backed it hada fiver on it 100.1 i think yahoo:thumbup:


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## CharleyRogan (Feb 20, 2009)

I live really close to Aintree, and its been absolutely chocca block! People everywhere! And I personally think that it is a cruel sport, because at least 1 horse will die every year and its sad, and they shouldn't be put through stuff like that. But of course its Aintree and they're not going stop it because its cruel!

Char
xxx


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

CharleyRogan said:


> I live really close to Aintree, and its been absolutely chocca block! People everywhere!
> 
> Char
> xxx


the bookies must of made a fortune:yikes:


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

borderer said:


> the bookies must of made a fortune:yikes:


the meeting has taken approx 350 million this year, the bookies are laughing as a 100-1 came in first.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

So a horse did die then? I couldn't watch it... R.I.P


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

RoseForTheDead said:


> So a horse did die then? I couldn't watch it... R.I.P


yeah, he was pulled up before the last fence and collapsed on the run-in, the screens went up so you knew it was bad....but its actually on the jockey's head as the horse in question was obviously tired even before that fence but the jockey pushed on and didnt pull up....i reckon they might investigate that.

another point to make is that even though it looks like race horses die purely from exhaustion (and obviously some do), that is not always the case and a post mortem has to prove it, some have existing conditions that are not known about and often heart murmours can be a cause. same with eventing horses, who also cross the line exhausted and have to use oxygen


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> yeah, he was pulled up before the last fence and collapsed on the run-in, the screens went up so you knew it was bad....but its actually on the jockey's head as the horse in question was obviously tired even before that fence but the jockey pushed on and didnt pull up....i reckon they might investigate that.


That's awful, poor thing.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

Didnt watch it as dont agree
RIP echo sadly your life was ended due to the entertainment for others..


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

I hate the fact it's a racing picture, but it's the only one I could find... R.I.P Echo. xxx


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

I've just read alot of the horses needed oxygen after they'd finished  how bl**dy hard do they push these horses... to need oxygen!? It's barbaric.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

RoseForTheDead said:


> I hate the fact it's a racing picture, but it's the only one I could find... R.I.P Echo. xxx
> 
> View attachment 19278


oohh what a stunning horse 
makes me mad


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

RoseForTheDead said:


> I've just read alot of the horses needed oxygen after they'd finished  how bl**dy hard do they push these horses... to need oxygen!? It's barbaric.


its not only racing that they use oxygen in....they use it at three day events for the x-country day.

and it was 3 horses that used it after the GN. it is the quickest way to get a horse to recover.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Vixxen said:


> 1. all owers/trainers hope their horses come out ok...do you think they are heartless?
> 
> 2. stone of lead? first i heard, they can carry any weight within limits, its not "made fair", i'd like to see proof of that who was it and what was the weight? seeing as they were carryig all weight ranging to top weight.
> 
> ...


I didn't watch it. My dad did and told me actually. Yes some trainers and owners are heartless actually my (extended family) uncle used to work with racehorses in Ireland and knew a few race stables that couldn't give a s**t, except cash and status. I do know that there is bad and good. But it is the principal for me. I also know that horses die/get injured in 'normal' races. Don't shout me down for having an opinion. Just because it isn't the same as yours. I don't know how much you know about racing and race horses and neither you know about me. I am not having a go at people who enjoy and bet on this race so why is it ok for you to have a go at me just because i am against it????? I disagree with it all, the course is horrendos and it takes the lives of many (whether killed, destroyed or injured to the point that they can't race anymore), but i don't have a go at people who bet, i would however have a go at the owners, trainers, etc etc One horse collasped and died as a consequence of this race and 2 others needed oxygen right after it, what does that tell you??????? These horses are fit and healthy i know that but come on the aftermath of this race is hell for the horses........

You seem to think its ok for them to collapse??? Its normal???


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Vixxen said:


> its not only racing that they use oxygen in....they use it at three day events for the x-country day.
> 
> and it was 3 horses that used it after the GN. it is the quickest way to get a horse to recover.


I my eyes they shouldn't need help to recover. They are extremely fit, healthy and have amazing stamina, but they get pushed to hard. No has spoke of cross country, this thread came around due to it being Grand National day. So no one has disputed that horses do not need oxygen from other events. 
Horses would not need oxygen or any other 'help' if they were treated as living animals should be. With respect (which these so called 'athletes' don't) love and absolute care and responsibilty. Not just cared for when it is winning most races. Pushing an animal to its limits like that speaks for itself..................
People might say they respect and care etc but it seems to me they don't humans run races at their own choice, they exercise themselves etc. Horses and dogs don't have that choice. Some say ''if they didn't want to race they wouldn't'' What a load of dribble. Have you seen races when horses don't want to but get forced into the starting pens????? The horse is blatantly saying ''no'' but the humans carry on and force it in, with big sling like things around its back legs steering it in and sometimes whips etc Do you understand that just because a horse loses it jockey does not mean it carries the race on just for sheer enjoyment, it follows due to the fact it is a prey and herd animal and will follow, it is instinct, it is more than likely scared....crowds baying and cheering horses running at full speed....... i would be terrified too. In some and a lot of races there is far too many horses running at once, a recipe for disaster.:angry:  
And they still use whips??? Allowed to whip that horse on the home straight??? I have rode horses a long time and never once used a whip. Even with an extremely tempremental and massive stallion. Love, care, the upmost respect and most importantly understanding is what i use!!

Horses were used for ploughs, draft, riding (as in travel, then into enjoyment for both human and horse) etc etc. We as humans chose to exploit them for our own entertainment and money making, like we have with many many other beautiful animals.  as humans we ruined nature we are enemies to everything even ourselves.

Thats me done!! A glass of wine obviously doesn't do me justice when talking!! Sorry if i upset anyone, sometimes i don't know when to stop!!


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I my eyes they shouldn't need help to recover. They are extremely fit, healthy and have amazing stamina, but they get pushed to hard. No has spoke of cross country, this thread came around due to it being Grand National day. So no one has disputed that horses do not need oxygen from other events.
> Horses would not need oxygen or any other 'help' if they were treated as living animals should be. With respect (which these so called 'athletes' don't) love and absolute care and responsibilty. Pushing an animal to its limits like that speaks for itself..................
> People might say they respect and care etc but it seems to me they don't humans run races at their own choice, they exercise themselves etc. Horses and dogs don't have that choice. Some say ''if they didn't want to race they wouldn't'' What a load of dribble. Have you seen races when horses don't want to but get forced into the starting pens????? The horse is blatantly saying ''no'' but the humans carry on and force it in, with big sling like things around its back legs steering it in and sometimes whips etc Do you understand that just because a horse loses it jockey does not mean it carries the race on just for sheer enjoyment, it follows due to the fact it is a herd animal and will follow, it is more than likely scared....crowds baying and cheering horses running at full speed....... i would be terrified too. In some and a lot of races there is far too many horses running at once, a recipe for disaster.:angry:
> 
> ...


That wine has done you good lol you have just said everything i was thinking but could not word properly..
i totaly agree..


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> That wine has done you good lol you have just said everything i was thinking but could not word properly..
> i totaly agree..


Lol!! Thanks!! I can be quite opiniated!! Especially when it comes to animals! x


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> I my eyes they shouldn't need help to recover. They are extremely fit, healthy and have amazing stamina, but they get pushed to hard. No has spoke of cross country, this thread came around due to it being Grand National day. So no one has disputed that horses do not need oxygen from other events.
> Horses would not need oxygen or any other 'help' if they were treated as living animals should be. With respect (which these so called 'athletes' don't) love and absolute care and responsibilty. Not just cared for when it is winning most races. Pushing an animal to its limits like that speaks for itself..................
> People might say they respect and care etc but it seems to me they don't humans run races at their own choice, they exercise themselves etc. Horses and dogs don't have that choice. Some say ''if they didn't want to race they wouldn't'' What a load of dribble. Have you seen races when horses don't want to but get forced into the starting pens????? The horse is blatantly saying ''no'' but the humans carry on and force it in, with big sling like things around its back legs steering it in and sometimes whips etc Do you understand that just because a horse loses it jockey does not mean it carries the race on just for sheer enjoyment, it follows due to the fact it is a prey and herd animal and will follow, it is instinct, it is more than likely scared....crowds baying and cheering horses running at full speed....... i would be terrified too. In some and a lot of races there is far too many horses running at once, a recipe for disaster.:angry:
> And they still use whips??? Allowed to whip that horse on the home straight??? I have rode horses a long time and never once used a whip. Even with an extremely tempremental and massive stallion. Love, care, the upmost respect and most importantly understanding is what i use!!
> ...


In one of the earlier races a horse wouldn't line up at the start. Even though I think it was quite a fancied runner the starter told the jockey to get of and take the horse of the track he was withdrawing it. No one tried to force it the jockey got of and lead it towards the start but when he remounted it still refused to move. As soon as it was turned away it walked quite happily.

I remember one day watching racing on he TV not to long ago last year sometime and a horse didn't collapse at the end of the race it lay down . The screens were put round it but the commentator said not to worry it was just a precaution the horse regularly lay down at the end of the race and it would soon get back up. True to his word a couple of minutes later the screens came down and the horse walked away happily They spoke to the jockey who said the horse was ok they just let it lie for a minute then it gets up again.


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## scosha37 (Feb 24, 2008)

Well i will stick my hand up i usely put a little bet on sometimes...:sad:...but yesterday something says to me not to do it... so i didnt ..and i am glad i didnt..poor things... so never again!!!..

I think they need to ban it or something now.....:sad:


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## Kathryn1 (Jan 30, 2009)

In total 5 horses have died this year, they have other smaller races before the grand national as is held over a couple of days. and four other horses have died or been pts with horrific injuries.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

Kathryn1 said:


> In total 5 horses have died this year, they have other smaller races before the grand national as is held over a couple of days. and four other horses have died or been pts with horrific injuries.


actually, heart attack isnt really classed as "horrific injury".

as far as im aware only one horse died from injury (as i watched that race), the rest heart conditions.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> actually, heart attack isnt really classed as "horrific injury".
> 
> as far as im aware only one horse died from injury (as i watched that race), the rest heart conditions.


I haven't read all this thread but are you saying that a heart attack isn't horrific and one brought on by extreme exersion is somehow "a natural death" ?????

The GN is just another example of us allowing vanity and our selfish need for entertainment to come before the welfare of another living creature.

If the people who support this barbaric event had to "despatch" the horses who didn't quite make it over a jump they may not be so quick to support it.
:mad2:

sorry if i have jumped in and misunderstood anyones point.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

Freyja said:


> In one of the earlier races a horse wouldn't line up at the start. Even though I think it was quite a fancied runner the starter told the jockey to get of and take the horse of the track he was withdrawing it. No one tried to force it the jockey got of and lead it towards the start but when he remounted it still refused to move. As soon as it was turned away it walked quite happily.
> 
> I remember one day watching racing on he TV not to long ago last year sometime and a horse didn't collapse at the end of the race it lay down . The screens were put round it but the commentator said not to worry it was just a precaution the horse regularly lay down at the end of the race and it would soon get back up. True to his word a couple of minutes later the screens came down and the horse walked away happily They spoke to the jockey who said the horse was ok they just let it lie for a minute then it gets up again.


thats what i was abou to say...starters withdraw many horses who are not happy to go to the starting line or stalls.

people who make such comments about racing actually have no idea, they dont research, look at facts or even watch it so how could they possily know the ins and outs....yet when people who actually follow racing, have knowledge of it and have even *worked* at race yards and the races (like myself) try to give facts out they just twist it and have no intention of listening.

it annoys me that what they think is cruel about racing is infact tame compared to other horse sports...polo is bad, those jumps on the national are no bigger than 5'2"...ive seen showjumpers jumo much higher than that on a full course in blazing heat, same goes for eventing...horses are pushed on that course at high speed and need oxygen tents at the end, hunting asks of high speed and large hedges to be jumped too (thats optional though), flat racing causes more injury than hurdles....so yeah are you all going to moan when its derby day? when its badminton/burghlley/blenheim days? when its showjuping competition days?

no....didnt think so.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

rainy said:


> I haven't read all this thread but are you saying that a heart attack isn't horrific and one brought on by extreme exersion is somehow "a natural death" ?????


its not an horrific injury...that would be a broken neck or femur....which im sure the OP meant.

and as i pointed out earier, and as many horse people will tell you....only a PM will tell you what it died from as many many heart conditions in horses are masked and no one knows until it is too late...even pony club horses can drop dead on a novice showjump course....it is a risk that all riders and owners take. a horse may seem healthy, but infact it isnt...and before races horses are vetted more than once!


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> thats what i was abou to say...starters withdraw many horses who are not happy to go to the starting line or stalls.
> 
> people who make such comments about racing actually have no idea, they dont research, look at facts or even watch it so how could they possily know the ins and outs....yet when people who actually follow racing, have knowledge of it and have even *worked* at race yards and the races (like myself) try to give facts out they just twist it and have no intention of listening.
> 
> ...


So because it is tame compared to others that's ok. 

Ahhh i get it now forgive me for my ignorance i just thought that this was a thread about the GN and obviously there are "degrees" of cruelty (i am being sarcastic there). I will just be on my way then, might go kick the dog, only gently of course.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

rainy said:


> So because it is tame compared to others that's ok.
> 
> Ahhh i get it now forgive me for my ignorance i just thought that this was a thread about the GN and obviously there are "degrees" of cruelty (i am being sarcastic there). I will just be on my way then, might go kick the dog, only gently of course.


what a stupid ********* thing to say! someone kicked my kitten yesterday and im onto the RSPCA already, do you think i'd say that its ok?! really am i that heartless?!

im pointing out facts here to others, to actually show both sides, if you dont like it dont bother reading it! its upto YOU what you think, if you dont want to consider facts then dont


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## Kathryn1 (Jan 30, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> actually, heart attack isnt really classed as "horrific injury".
> 
> as far as im aware only one horse died from injury (as i watched that race), the rest heart conditions.


Right not sure what bandwagon your on!!

My post was put on to say that infact 5 horses have died throughout the last few days in races to the runup of the grand national.

Regardless of what they died of they still DIED!!!! And that was all my point was!!!!


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> what a stupid ********* thing to say! someone kicked my kitten yesterday and im onto the RSPCA already, do you think i'd say that its ok?! really am i that heartless?!
> 
> im pointing out facts here to others, to actually show both sides, if you dont like it dont bother reading it! its upto YOU what you think, if you dont want to consider facts then dont


I am not saying you are heartless and maybe that was a bit of a stupid point but you must admit these horses are pushed beyond "the norm" simply for entertaining the masses.


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## Kathryn1 (Jan 30, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> what a stupid ********* thing to say! someone kicked my kitten yesterday and im onto the RSPCA already, do you think i'd say that its ok?! really am i that heartless?!
> 
> im pointing out facts here to others, to actually show both sides, if you dont like it dont bother reading it! its upto YOU what you think, if you dont want to consider facts then dont


The fact is that 5 horses have died over the weekend!!!!!


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

Kathryn1 said:


> The fact is that 5 horses have died over the weekend!!!!!


yeah ok....and obviously you feel strongly about that, whih is fine but all i say is think about *other* facts. how many died at cheltenham gold cup? im guessing you havent bothered to check as it wasnt the aintree national meeting but the answer is 9.

if it bothers you that much go join an anti-racing group? heres a quote from one group;

"Aintree is the country's second most deadly course" notice second there....see you all moan about the GN yet none of you moaned a few weeks ago when it was gold cup week, where more horses die each year....infact a few years ago when it was very hot 5 died from the heat alone....

see my issue is that this post only apeared about the GN as its more famous....when in reality if people were actually serious anti-racing people then a post would have also appeared about the gold cup.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> yeah ok....and obviously you feel strongly about that, whih is fine but all i say is think about *other* facts. how many died at cheltenham gold cup? im guessing you havent bothered to check as it wasnt the aintree national meeting but the answer is 9.
> 
> if it bothers you that much go join an anti-racing group? heres a quote from one group;
> 
> ...


Fair point but the GN is much more widely supported by the general public and therefore makes it more topical.


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## Kathryn1 (Jan 30, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> yeah ok....and obviously you feel strongly about that, whih is fine but all i say is think about *other* facts. how many died at cheltenham gold cup? im guessing you havent bothered to check as it wasnt the aintree national meeting but the answer is 9.
> 
> if it bothers you that much go join an anti-racing group? heres a quote from one group;
> 
> "Aintree is the country's second most deadly course" notice second there....see you all moan about the GN yet none of you moaned a few weeks ago when it was gold cup week, where more horses die each year....infact a few years ago when it was very hot 5 died from the heat alone.


I was merely saying that there were more than the 1 horse that has died over the weekend. It is very sad that these horses are dying and yes there are questions to be asked if it should be allowed but hey ho!!!

I have much more important things to worry about in my own life than to join a anti racing group!!!

Why cant i just post telling people something???

Without YOU jumping down my neck and "quoting me crap" who the hell do you think you are????


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

Kathryn1 said:


> Why cant i just post telling people something???
> 
> Without YOU jumping down my neck and "quoting me crap" who the hell do you think you are????


why cant i post about stuff informing people without YOU quoting me and saying im wrong?

works both ways...so who the hell do you think you are too? if you have anything else to say to me i suggest you do it via PM.

i think you should leave it there, were both entitled to an opinion and i shall post what i want as it is all facts and adds to the debate.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

rainy said:


> Fair point but the GN is much more widely supported by the general public and therefore makes it more topical.


hmmm i dont know, the gold cup is also one of the biggest events in racing, half of ireland come over for it (or so it feels like that!)


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## Kathryn1 (Jan 30, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> why cant i post about stuff informing people without YOU quoting me and saying im wrong?
> 
> works both ways...so who the hell do you think you are too? if you have anything else to say to me i suggest you do it via PM.
> 
> i think you should leave it there, were both entitled to an opinion and i shall post what i want as it is all facts and adds to the debate.


Please read back the posts and i think it is the other way round, i have not once said what you are saying is wrong.

The stuff you are saying is irrelavant to my original post, i just said 5 horses have died that is it!!!

I didnt say what they had died of and i didnt say what racecourse they died at, i merely said more horses have died than the 1 that people were discussing that died at the grand national. My point of posting it was to just say it is sad that these horses have died.

Im not saying it doesnt happen every weekend at different races im sure it does, i had just read this information on the news and thought i would post it on this topic.

I have no idea why you jumped on me and started quoting stuff about what they died of and it wasnt an injury!!! I couldnt give a cr** to be honest.

I think you have obviosuly thought i was some Anti Racing Nutcase and thought you could put me in my place by all the quotes.

Well im not!!!


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> hmmm i dont know, the gold cup is also one of the biggest events in racing, half of ireland come over for it (or so it feels like that!)


Yeah but when i worked in an office there was always a sweepstake for the GN, i think it is the one that the media whip up and more of the general public bet on even if they have no real interest in horse racing.

It is an emmotive subject and people are never going to agree C'est La Vie.

I happen to think that racing animals to within an inch of their lives (and bejond in some cases) is unneccesary and barbaric and i can see no reason for doing it other than to entertain the human race and i think it is a sad human race who get their kicks off the back of an animals suffering. I couldn't give a monkeys what race it is.

But i do understand that is simply my own opinion and if people who race can convince me otherwise i am happy to listen.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

Kathryn1 said:


> I think you have obviosuly thought i was some Anti Racing Nutcase and thought you could put me in my place by all the quotes.
> 
> Well im not!!!


you sound nothing like an anti-racing nutcase....youre very tame in comparison...believe me, ive met plenty...


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## Kathryn1 (Jan 30, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> you sound nothing like an anti-racing nutcase....youre very tame in comparison...believe me, ive met plenty...


I cannot see myself outside Aintree!!! With a big banner screaming my head off!!! :lol::lol:


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

Kathryn1 said:


> I cannot see myself outside Aintree!!! With a big banner screaming my head off!!! :lol::lol:


if only they were just doing that  some of them have done totally stupid things, putting horses and riders at risk themselves, but thats another story! lol


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Freyja said:


> In one of the earlier races a horse wouldn't line up at the start. Even though I think it was quite a fancied runner the starter told the jockey to get of and take the horse of the track he was withdrawing it. No one tried to force it the jockey got of and lead it towards the start but when he remounted it still refused to move. As soon as it was turned away it walked quite happily.
> 
> I remember one day watching racing on he TV not to long ago last year sometime and a horse didn't collapse at the end of the race it lay down . The screens were put round it but the commentator said not to worry it was just a precaution the horse regularly lay down at the end of the race and it would soon get back up. True to his word a couple of minutes later the screens came down and the horse walked away happily They spoke to the jockey who said the horse was ok they just let it lie for a minute then it gets up again.


I never siad that they all force them in and i also never said that any horse that lays down has collasped!! I was simply saying it does happen and that i don't agree with it. If all the horses were treated properly no one would have a problem. But racing can be cruel in all kinds, dog horse etc. 
The horses are running flat out for far too long. If i was a herd/prey animal i would be terrified.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

rainy said:


> I haven't read all this thread but are you saying that a heart attack isn't horrific and one brought on by extreme exersion is somehow "a natural death" ?????
> 
> The GN is just another example of us allowing vanity and our selfish need for entertainment to come before the welfare of another living creature.
> 
> ...


Well said Rainy :thumbup:

If these horses had heart conditions why the hell were they raced??????? :mad2:

And if it ''wasn't known'' why aren't the poor animals tested?? :mad2:


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Vixxen said:


> thats what i was abou to say...starters withdraw many horses who are not happy to go to the starting line or stalls.
> 
> people who make such comments about racing actually have no idea, they dont research, look at facts or even watch it so how could they possily know the ins and outs....yet when people who actually follow racing, have knowledge of it and have even *worked* at race yards and the races (like myself) try to give facts out they just twist it and have no intention of listening.
> 
> ...


How many times do i have to say i personally have never said that no other horse 'sport' isn't harsh..have i?????? I know they are, but this thread is about the GN if you have anything else to say why don't you start a new thread about the danger of ALL horse 'sports' ??????

Just because peole don't watch it does not mean they ''have no idea'' what a stupid thing to say. My dad is very keen bet man (much to my dismay but i can't stop him) always has been always will be. So i think you'll find i myself have seen races as a young child and then as i grew up he told me all i needed to know and more. He knows the in and outs thanks you very much. Also in an earlier post of mine (or did you not bother to read it) i actually siad an uncle worked for stables of racers in Ireland. I also HAVE researched it a little due to trying to put my dad off!!! I have seen enough to put me off for life and beyond. I think you should also read other peoples views before shouting everyone down.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Ho
> i actually siad an uncle worked for stables of racers in Ireland. I also HAVE researched it a little due to trying to put my dad off!!! I have seen enough to put me off for life and beyond. I think you should also read other peoples views before shouting everyone down.


horse racing in ireland can actually be very different to here, did you find that? either from your uncle (ut it sounds like he worked for a proper national hunt yard) or through research

people who own horses (not jockeys just keen riders) all go out on weekends to a designated point in the middle of nowhere in the vast countryside and hold steeplechases/point to point and take bets etc, its actually a pretty wild affair....very interesting though and hugely popular, i went to a few when ive been over in southern ireland, even in the winter!

i am actually planing on going over to ireland on varios occassions over the next few years to continue a photographic project on the equine lifestye over there...from competitions, traditional romany travellers and the huge horse fairs to the fantastic race meetings that i just mentioned, thouh i am not highlighting aspects of cruety, more a way of life...but i have witnessed cruelty at the horse fairs, which as it happens is where a lot of irish racers end up.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> horse racing in ireland can actually be very different to here, did you find that? either from your uncle (ut it sounds like he worked for a proper national hunt yard) or through research
> 
> people who own horses (not jockeys just keen riders) all go out on weekends to a designated point in the middle of nowhere in the vast countryside and hold steeplechases/point to point and take bets etc, its actually a pretty wild affair....very interesting though and hugely popular, i went to a few when ive been over in southern ireland, even in the winter!
> 
> i am actually planing on going over to ireland on varios occassions over the next few years to continue a photographic project on the equine lifestye over there...from competitions, traditional romany travellers and the huge horse fairs to the fantastic race meetings that i just mentioned, thouh i am not highlighting aspects of cruety, more a way of life...but i have witnessed cruelty at the horse fairs, which as it happens is where a lot of irish racers end up.


NO ONE is saying that you dont know nothing just like you have said to others nor has anyone said that you cant agree with it.!!1

we all have our own opions and i totally agree with acacia i think your taking it to far you have a come back for every one else views, it seem thats you totally agree with horse racing which is total fine as its YOUR VIEWS ON IT..


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> we all have our own opions and i totally agree with acacia i think your taking it to far you have a come back for every one else views, it seem thats you totally agree with horse racing which is total fine as its YOUR VIEWS ON IT..


no...i was asking acacia if she knew about irish racing as im *interested* in it, and wondered if she had heard about that type from her uncle, as if she has then it would be of interest to me to hear about it as i want to document it (as mentioned above) not because i love it, but because its a good lifestyle for a documentary photographic project, and seeing as i make a living and a name from my art work any form of research is vital, my own or someone elses.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> no...i was asking acacia if she knew about irish racing as im *interested* in it, and wondered if she had heard about that type from her uncle, as if she has then it would be of interest to me to hear about it as i want to document it (as mentioned above) not because i love it, but because its a good lifestyle for a documentary photographic project.


I Was refering to all your post this was just the last on to quote


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I Was refering to all your post this was just the last on to quote


well make it clearer then and use an approriate quote instead of one which was of genuine interest, rather than crossing wires.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> well make it clearer then and use an approriate quote instead of one which was of genuine interest


You must really care about this suject to be so rude to people about it.

I am not convinced it is necessary to make your point in this way though.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

rainy said:


> You must really care about this suject to be so rude to people about it.
> 
> I am not convinced it is necessary to make your point in this way though.


i just didnt appreciate the comment about a post that was of genuine interest in regards to what another member has researched, if the poster wanted to make that comment it should have been about a previous post, not that one....because then it crosses wires and gets my back up when im *trying* to ask out of interest, what another member knows.

i dont care passionately about racing, but i care enough to want to *know* more about a certain aspect that i want to look into more

i seriously hope that when the project is coplete, the exhibition of it will cause as much opinion as this thread, art thrives on it.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> i just didnt appreciate the comment about a post that was of genuine interest in regards to what another member has researched, if the poster wanted to make that comment it should have been about a previous post, not that one....because then it crosses wires and gets my back up when im *trying* to ask out of interest, what another member knows.
> 
> i dont care passionately about racing, but i care enough to want to *know* more about a certain aspect that i want to look into more.


Does it matter what bit i qouted i explanied what i ment after sorry i didnt realise i wansnt aallowd to post on that post.!
and there was no need to word it the was you did


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> Does it matter what bit i qouted i explanied what i ment after sorry i didnt realise i wansnt aallowd to post on that post.!
> and there was no need to word it the was you did


well sorry if it came across as sharp, but im a sharp person tbf, and its pretty easy to take it out of context on the net anyway.


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## Kathryn1 (Jan 30, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> well sorry if it came across as sharp, but im a sharp person tbf, and its pretty easy to take it out of context on the net anyway.


yeh so i found out the morning.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> i just didnt appreciate the comment about a post that was of genuine interest in regards to what another member has researched, if the poster wanted to make that comment it should have been about a previous post, not that one....because then it crosses wires and gets my back up when im *trying* to ask out of interest, what another member knows.
> 
> i dont care passionately about racing, but i care enough to want to *know* more about a certain aspect that i want to look into more
> 
> i seriously hope that when the project is coplete, the exhibition of it will cause as much opinion as this thread, art thrives on it.


So are you gathering information on this post or do you have a genuine point to make??

I still think it is uneccesary to be so rude.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

Kathryn1 said:


> yeh so i found out the morning.




and rainy....actually ive made points...its valid, same as everyone elses.
in regards to Acacia's post, yes i was hoping to gain info off her if she knows anything about what i was asking, as she made the point of saying that her uncle worked in irish yards that sparked my interest.

failing that...if theres any irish people on here who are involved in the equine world, then they would also be helpful


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> and rainy....actually ive made points...its valid, same as everyone elses.
> in regards to Acacia's post, yes i was hoping to gain info off her if she knows anything about what i was asking, as she made the point of saying that her uncle worked in irish yards that sparked my interest.


well maybe if you wanted info on something else you should PM acacia as this thread was about people views horse racing..!


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> and rainy....actually ive made points...its valid, same as everyone elses.
> in regards to Acacia's post, yes i was hoping to gain info off her if she knows anything about what i was asking, as she made the point of saying that her uncle worked in irish yards that sparked my interest.


I am sure you have made valid points they just seem to be lost in the way you make them.

Just an observation as you said things don't always travel well on here.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Well for once I have kept my nose out of this thread! But time for me now to air my opinions,

Grand National day was always a big day in our house when I was a child as my father used to study every horse, every trainer, every jockey, what he didn't know about racing wasn't worth knowing, I was always encouraged even as as child to choose a horse - which I did, I would sit with the rest of the family with my hands over my face watching and dreading when a horse fell, and praying that it would be alright.


No - I didn't watch the race yesterday - becuase I have not interest in it whatsoever now, It was on in our snug and I could hear it, the only question I asked my partner when the race had finhished was how many fell and did they all get up?

So it is with sadness that I learn that a horse did lose it's life in this gruesome race. RIP Echo.

BUT - you are all quick to critisize this race and as I see another member has already posted What about all the other events where horses lose there lives, The 3 day events are far more gruelly then the national imo, what about the olympic team?? Do they push the horses too far??? If your going to ban the grand national for cruetly then you have to ban all racing/ horse events! The reason the GN gets so much adverse publicity is that it is probably the most televised event of the year! You never get to hear how many horses die at the smaller tracks where the races are not televised! Don't these matter then??

And what about spoilt little girls who will try to whip an out of condition horse/pony over a jump that it is never ever in a month of Sundays going to be capable of clearing - what do you do with these??? Ban them as well?

Saying no more!
DT


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> And what about spoilt little girls who will try to whip an out of condition horse/pony over ajump that it is never ever in a month of Sundays going to be capable of clearing - what do you do with these??? Ban them as well?


you should see me trying to jump a friends overweight pony....she runs *though* the poles, and when she does feel like jumping it she stops straight afterwards and looks back in disgust...shes a funny one.

though i never whip any horse on  it was merely as a way of getting her fit to jump...but we soon gave up on that plan.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well for once I have kept my nose out of this thread! But time for me now to air my opinions,
> 
> Grand National day was always a big day in our house when I was a child as my father used to study every horse, every trainer, every jockey, what he didn't know about racing wasn't worth knowing, I was always encouraged even as as child to choose a horse - which I did, I would sit with the rest of the family with my hands over my face watching and dreading when a horse fell, and praying that it would be alright.
> 
> ...


You didn't read my link did you?
Going back to your old ways cos I'm not here so much:hand::hand:


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

rona said:


> You didn't read my link did you?
> Going back to your old ways cos I'm not here so much:hand::hand:


Funny you should mention that actually - I almost started a thread the other day titled:
Yippie Rona's gone AWOL I can run amok!
What did I miss Sherlock??
lol
DT
xxx


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

When I posted early this morning I was getting ready for a show with my dogs.What I didn't have time to say was this.

Some years ago when I had horses of my own a girl at the stables had several ponies 2 of which were yearling section D cobs 18 months old. They were to young to be ridden or do anything and so spent their days grazing in the field. One night I had a phone call of the stable owner she was trying to get in touch with the girl who at the time lived opposite me.I went across to her house and told her mum something was the matter with one of the youngsters I went to the stables to see what was wrong. The pony was lying down in the field and couldn't get up. Its owner arrived not long after me and a vet was called. By then it was dark. The next morning a specialist horse vet from the practise came to see him. The pony was diagnosed as having a serious heart condition and had basically had a heart attack. He was PTS that morning the on call vet had treated the pony as best he could but hadn't been able to find what was wrong. It was pitch black and the only lights we had was the head lights off my car which we had taken into the next field. He had been made comfortable for the night and had had water and hay put were he could reach it.

I have put this on here to show a horse can suffer a heart attack with out doing any sort of exhertion this pony was standing in a field grazing.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Funny you should mention that actually - I almost started a thread the other day titled:
> Yippie Rona's gone AWOL I can run amok!
> What did I miss Sherlock??
> lol
> ...


Stop being bl**dy lazy and have a look:001_tt2:


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

rona said:


> Stop being bl**dy lazy and have a look:001_tt2:


But there's 17 pages - you used to help me !!! give us a clue at least


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Good post Freyja -- Sorry cannot give you any rep! someone stole it
DT


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> But there's 17 pages - you used to help me !!! give us a clue at least


It's my link about dead horses at all race courses.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

rona said:


> It's my link about dead horses at all race courses.


Is it on another thread Rona - or on this one?  I mean 17 pages!!!


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Is it on another thread Rona - or on this one?  I mean 17 pages!!!


I'm losing the will to live here
Are you trying to drive me away totally
Page 9:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

I had actually read you post Rona, but admittidly had not clicked onto the link, And in all honesty half wished I hadn't bothered now - but then I guess is something that we need to be aware of especially those who are just knocking the National.

My post was not aimed at just race horses . but horses engaged in other sports
regards
DT


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Goodness, whats been going on here since I last looked 

The whole point of my posting this thread was to highlight the GN, not flat racing, horse jumping of whatever, but the GN and the Aintree meeting in general, where so many horses lose their lives.

I think the following article written in 2003, sums up this brutal race beautifully -

The following article by Sue Reid is from the Daily Mail, Saturday 5th April 2003 - the day of the Grand National. For more about horse racing, and the Grand National in particular, see our special Horse Racing Awareness Week pages.

They killed the horse called Architect in the afternoon. Just before teatime. Liverpool vet John Burgess put a .320 calibre pistol to the four-year-old hurdler's forehead and sent a bullet through his brain and spinal cord. The gun's silencer did its job. There was only a muffled bang from behind the green cotton screens put up hurriedly around the dying animal.

No sound to frighten the thousands of punters 100 yards away, quaffing champagne and already piling on bets for the next race; no glimpse of the swift execution, in case it shocked the spectators enjoying the first day of the annual Grand National meeting at Aintree. Yet the manner of Architect's demise was not unusual. The statistics of death surrounding a day at the races are chilling and remain one of the secret scandals of the multi-million pound racing industry.

A total of 27 horses have been killed during the three-day Aintree spring meeting since 1997, seven of those by hurtling over Becher's Brook and the enormous fences of the famous Grand National course. Two days ago, in the St Austell Brewery Mersey Novices' Hurdle, a six-year-old hurdler, Coolnagorna, broke his hind leg and was put down before being winched off the Aintree course just like Architect. And, if recent history is a judge, once of the 40 steeplechasers lining up to start the Grand National is likely to be dead by the end of today's race. When, at 5pm today, all the races on the Aintree card have been finished, perhaps there will be two, three or even four horses lying in the mortuary at Liverpool's animal hospital.

'Horse racing is a bloody, ruthless business,' declares Andrew Tyler, director of Animal Aid and a hard-line activist campaigning, without success, to get the Grand National banned. 'Hundreds of horses are raced to death and many more suffer permanent injuries. But of all the races, the Grand National is the most dangerous. There is no such thing as a harmless flutter. Every person who bets on this race is gambling with horses' lives.

'The racing industry is a powerful and lucrative business and it insists that everything is getting better for the horses. Yet, there's no proof that's true,' says Andrew. 'Back in 1984, they lowered the fences at the Grand National, but the deaths kept on happening. At more than four miles and four furlongs in length, it is a very long and deliberately punishing race. When the ground is dry - like this year, despite the course being heavily watered - more accidents tend to happen. Falling on dry ground is like landing on concrete.'

Architect, a handsome Irish-bred bay, crushed his spine by toppling at 30mph over the second-to-last hurdle of the Glenlivet Anniversary race on Thursday, April 6, 2000. His death, along with four other horses (Strong Promise, Rossell Island, Lake Kariba and Toni's Tip) in terrifying swift succession at the home of the world's most famous steeplechase, provoked a backlash against racing and its cavalier treatment of animals.

When, last year, two horses were killed in the Grand National itself - Last Fling by breaking his back at the hugely tricky Canal Turn and Manx Magic after fracturing his neck at the 20th fence - the racing world was again accused of unnecessary cruelty.

Every year, 160 horses like Architect perish while jumping over fences at British race tracks. Another 90 who start the season will also be killed because of severe injuries or because they are no longer of any commercial value. According to Animal Aid, they are the victims of a leisure industry driven by greed.

If the racecourses have become killing fields, then the horrific events in the horse trainers' yards and equine breeding establishments are equally shameful. Shrouded in secrecy is the number of horses which are born, only to be killed because they are not perfect racing material. In 1957, 7,826 racehorse mares produced 4,254 foals, a majority of which became racers. Now, 25,000 mares give birth to 14,701 colts and fillies - only a small minority are ever expected to see the starter's flag with the rest put down.

'Twenty years ago, a horse such as Shergar, the most desired stallion of his generation, would "cover" 40 mares a year,' says Alistair Down, the Channel Four racing commentator and Racing Post columnist. 'Today, the top stallions will cover 200 mares, and some of the best jumping stallions more than 300.'

Yet if the survival of the young racehorse is a cruel lottery, nothing compares to the manner in which he may end his days, once his racing career is over. The lucky ones are used for hunting and showjumping, others for breeding. But even horses which have competed in premier meetings such as the Grand National are often shot with a pistol within months of their careers ending.

There is no official control of the fate of the 5,000 horses which retire from racing every year. However, it is known that many are sent on their final journey by lorry to be slaughtered at one of Britain's three official horsemeat abattoirs. Their last resting place can be in a pet food tin or as a butchered carcass put on sale to countries such as France or Belgium where horse meat is a desirable culinary dish. Indeed, in continental Europe, dead British racehorses fetch top market price.

'Too often, the discarded racehorse faces a lengthy downward spiral from saleroom to saleroom, where they are finally bought by the meat-man,' says Carrie Humble, founder and director of the Thoroughbred Rehabilitation Centre at Nateby, Lancashire, which is dedicated to the care of ex-racehorses and which was responsible for the rescue of the 1984 Grand National winner Hallo Dandy.

'Racehorses all over the country are just cast aside in fields and sheds. Anyone can pick them up for a few hundred guineas. One former Cheltenham winner was locked in its box for a year because the owner was so afraid of it. Another man has had 16 ex-racehorses in ten years and beat every one of them to death,' adds Carrie. 'These are lovely creatures which have given so much enjoyment. They deserve better.'

Hallo Dandy, now 29 years old and enjoying a happy retirement, was brought to Carrie after a distressed woman contacted her rehabilitation centre. She said that he had been given to a wealthy family for hunting, but his condition deteriorated. He was thin, tired and was covered with sores from the biting rain. A few more months without proper food and shelter and he would simply have died.

'It should be the responsibility of those making money out of racing to safeguard the horses once their heydays are over. These lovely creatures deserve a better end,' says Carrie.

Former top trainer Jenny Pitman has pleaded with the Jockey Club, the sport's governing body, and Aintree officials for the maximum number of Grand National runners to be reduced by ten, to a safer field of 30. 'Changes must be made so we do not hang our heads in shame,' she said after three horses were killed in 1998. Yet, despite all the criticism, there will still be 40 runners in today's Grand National.

The Jockey Club's chief vet, Peter Webbon, says: 'If we made horse races like walking races there would not be any spectators, who love the thrill and excitement of the National.'

But the jockey Richard Johnson, the on-off boyfriend of Princess Anne's daughter Zara, has said that the Aintree course on which Architect died can be lethally demanding. 'A lot of horses get injured there and I am not surprised. It's a very flat track and there is nothing to slow you down, apart from the obstacles, which are consequently approached at alarming speed. They says speed kills and it is as true on horseback as behind a wheel.'

After Architect was shot, the animal underwent a detailed post mortem conducted by Dr Derek Knottenbelt at the Philip Leverhulme Large Animal Hospital at the University of Liverpool. As head of equine studies at the hospital, he is leading research into how to reduce the risks of injury. His work recently was subject to severe criticism after it was revealed that a vet, in full view of the public, sawed off the leg of a horse that was killed in a fall at Musselburgh before sending it for research at his laboratory. And Dr Knottenbelt himself recently shot a horse with a broken leg, right in front of the stands at Chester racecourse. There was uproar.

Yesterday, Dr Knottenbelt said: 'We are working to minimise their racing injuries - that is what my research is about. But remember, the Grand National is a hard test, the ultimate challenge to a jumping horse at the pinnacle of his career. Just as a top athlete can get injured in the Olympics, a steeplechaser can get injured in the National. You have a half-ton horse powering along at 30mph and if he falls, he can get hurt. If we were to sacrifice all horse racing on the altar of animal welfare issues, we would have no horses in this country.'

The deaths of Architect and Coolnagorna are the sort of tragedies which racing chiefs must pray are not repeated today at the Grand National. Because if they are, all the world will yet again be taught the brutal truth about racing.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well for once I have kept my nose out of this thread! But time for me now to air my opinions,
> 
> The reason the GN gets so much adverse publicity is that it is probably the most televised event of the year! You never get to hear how many horses die at the smaller tracks where the races are not televised! Don't these matter then??
> 
> ...


I did actually read your post As if I wouldn't
I was just referring to this part of it


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Did you check Rona's link of page 9 Nina?
Sorry your thread has been crashed
regards
DT


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Did you check Rona's link of page 9 Nina?
> Sorry your thread has been crashed
> regards
> DT


No and I am always interested in rona's input. Off to take a peek. It better be good rona


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Just had a look at that link rona.

I cant help feeling that the points I have made about this race are being overlooked.

What other race is run over 4 1/2 miles, what other race has so many horses, what other race has jumps of this type. I could go on.

I find it extremely upsetting not to mention frustrating that so many points are being overlooked. But then I am passionate about animal welfare.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

I think in fairness Nina what many are saying is that all racing can be considered cruel. We know you are passinate about your beliefs, sadly many of us have overlooked the points you had raised, but that too maybe because we too are passinate about any life lost through sport.

We have two choices now - either get back to the point and any posts to please refer to the grand national only

or

start another thread - called grand national only

regards
DT


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

just to add...*most* of those horses deaths on that link were indeed from flat race courses...so not really relevant to the GN, but interesting all the same.

and quite a few of the courses are sand (wolverhampton being a main one), which is used for the arabs to race on....main difference in injury is that on the grass and hurdles theres mainly broken necks/legs and heart attacks, on the flat and sand its severed tendons, broken legs, heart attack, broke down, pulled up etc.


just a valid point of information for anyone interested in that list, not rambling


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Nina said:


> Just had a look at that link rona.
> 
> I cant help feeling that the points I have made about this race are being overlooked.
> 
> ...


The problem is, I don't think you can take the GN on it's own without looking at other statistics relating to horses in this country, whatever they are being used for


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

rona said:


> The problem is, I don't think you can take the GN on it's own without looking at other statistics relating to horses in this country, whatever they are being used for


you are correct in that it is the logest race, but there are other races run over the same course/fences too throughout the season (including topham chase the day before the national), obviously that is only one lap of the course though, the GN is 2, so obviously your point there is that 4.5 miles is too exhausting, which i think is probably more of an issue than the actual fences? maybe? well actually you could argue that the fences are a problem on the second lap.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

39 are running this year with 5 reserves

Grand National 2009: Runners guide - Telegraph

I pray 39 at the end are all standing well!


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> you are correct in that it is the logest race, but there are other races run over the same course/fences too throughout the season (including topham chase the day before the national), obviously that is only one lap of the course though, the GN is 2, so obviously your point there is that 4.5 miles is too exhausting, which i think is probably more of an issue than the actual fences? maybe? well actually you could argue that the fences are a problem on the second lap.


Yes but the highest amount of deaths aren't at Aintree they are at Cheltenham


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

rona said:


> Yes but the highest amount of deaths aren't at Aintree they are at Cheltenham


if you think about it like this it probably makes sense...both gold cup and GN meeting are the two big ones in british racing and both have some degree of death involved, *but* the GN meet is 3 days...the GC festival is actually longer...so more races to cause injury really, so maybe both are as bad as each other for injury? both are hurdles, so very similar, and the horses at GC week go onto GN meet a few weeks later.

i think that if you dislike the GN meeting for its aspects involving cruelty and deaths then youre probably going to have the same view on the gold cup week.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

candysmum said:


> 39 are running this year with 5 reserves
> 
> Grand National 2009: Runners guide - Telegraph
> 
> I pray 39 at the end are all standing well!


i think you've been too busy with those puppies!!! LOL


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

Vixxen i think you have it on the head.

When watching the grand naitonal most of the horses start to fall on the second lap by this point they have exhaust all energy they are a flight animal then have enough reserve to go a short distance at a great speed. 

normally 2 miles if what they would run in the wild to out run what ever is chasing it. this is flat out! so putting in jumps and adding another 2.5 miles on these poor animals are wacked.

I guess its like asking a unfit person to run the WHOLE of the london matathon and not walk any of it. That person IS going to fall. now these horses are very very fit so could probably do what 3 miles 3.5 miles easy with a couple of jumps in the middle. IMO i think shorting the race and removing some of the jumps is going to help the fatigue and the survival of more horses.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i think you've been too busy with those puppies!!! LOL


have i missed it?

Edit: oh so i have, ok did all 39 finish standing???


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

candysmum said:


> Vixxen i think you have it on the head.
> 
> When watching the grand naitonal most of the horses start to fall on the second lap by this point they have exhaust all energy they are a flight animal then have enough reserve to go a short distance at a great speed.
> 
> ...


also....on the 2nd lap the jockey can feel how the horse is running and they know when it has nothing left to run on so they pull up, i think in hear the echos case on saturday it was jockey error, it was quite obvious that he ad nothing left but he didnt pull up until the last fence, so quite a lot of it is down to the jockey too and their judgement

jockeys do also get investigated in such circumstances too, and can be suspended/banned.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> also....on the 2nd lap the jockey can feel how the horse is running and they know when it has nothing left to run on so they pull up, i think in hear the echos case on saturday it was jockey error, it was quite obvious that he ad nothing left but he didnt pull up until the last fence, so quite a lot of it is down to the jockey too and their judgement
> 
> jockeys do also get investigated in such circumstances too, and can be suspended/banned.


oh no did we lose one? of did he just fall? was he ok?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

candysmum said:


> have i missed it?
> 
> Edit: oh so i have, ok did all 39 finish standing???


No sadly one died


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

candysmum said:


> oh no did we lose one? of did he just fall? was he ok?


it was a case of exhaustion, collapsed on the run-in and had heart attack, or so thats the case until post mortem to rule out heart defects/murmour....it was quite good odds so i think the jockey was trying not to pull up but did so too late


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> it was a case of exhaustion, collapsed on the run-in and had heart attack, or so thats the case until post mortem to rule out heart defects/murmour....it was quite good odds so i think the jockey was trying not to pull up but did so too late


well may the poor guy run happily and free at rainbow bridge.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> if you think about it like this it probably makes sense...both gold cup and GN meeting are the two big ones in british racing and both have some degree of death involved, *but* the GN meet is 3 days...the GC festival is actually longer...so more races to cause injury really, so maybe both are as bad as each other for injury? both are hurdles, so very similar, and the horses at GC week go onto GN meet a few weeks later.
> 
> i think that if you dislike the GN meeting for its aspects involving cruelty and deaths then youre probably going to have the same view on the gold cup week.


I think Cheltenham is also 3 days


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

rona said:


> I think Cheltenham is also 3 days


its a week (5 days) say around 7 races each day (i havent been for a few years)...hence why it is sometimes referred to as "festival week", either way it is a bit longer than aintree meet and has more races, some novice, some big...it also tends to be quite warm for it too, was a few years ago!


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> its a week (5 days) say around 7 races each day (i havent been for a few years)...hence why it is sometimes referred to as "festival week", either way it is a bit longer than aintree meet and has more races, some novice, some big...it also tends to be quite warm for it too, was a few years ago!


Cheltenham - The Festival


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

rona said:


> Cheltenham - The Festival


4 days then  with average of 7 races a day...yep still a little bit more than aintree then, just not such a long/big course...the longest race there is 4 miles though

i know that 9 horses died at the festival this year, and 5 a few years ago just due to heat


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Vixxen said:


> 4 days then  with average of 7 races a day...yep still a little bit more than aintree then, just not such a long/big course...the longest race there is 4 miles though
> 
> i know that 9 horses died at the festival this year, and 5 a few years ago just due to heat


Yeh we were both wrong
Like I said before I think it has a lot to do with the lack of quality in the horses being allowed to compete in these races these days


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

rona said:


> Yeh we were both wrong
> Like I said before I think it has a lot to do with the lack of quality in the horses being allowed to compete in these races these days


hmmmm i dunno, see every horse in the GN does have to qualify through the handicap races, so if they werent good enough quality or fitness then they wouldnt be in it, and they do pass at least 3 vet checks before racing, but obviously yes some are lesser quality than others, but a 100-1 shot winning kinda messes with that theory :s

i do honestly believe that the jockey has a lot to do with things, and as a rider you can just feel when its time to stop...and some dont.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

candysmum said:


> Vixxen i think you have it on the head.
> 
> When watching the grand naitonal most of the horses start to fall on the second lap by this point they have exhaust all energy they are a flight animal then have enough reserve to go a short distance at a great speed.
> 
> ...


At last, someone has got all the points I have raised  Thank you CM.


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