# Becoming a maine coon breeder



## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

Hi everyone, 

I am new to this group and want to start by introducing myself. I am a mum of 2 and live with my partner, 2 maine coons and dog. Ive always been a HUGE cat lover all through my life and recently purchased 2 maine coon girls who I absolutely adore. And as a new owner of a maine coon I have done lots or research and I can pretty much say I have "the bug" that most of you talk about. 

Myself and partner both work full time but we want to possible start breeding. This would be something my partner will do with reduced working hours. Please can you share with me some of your stories about setting up, pros and cons. Do you attend shows? How many litters a year should each mum have. 

If we decide to do this we want to do it right. Not for money, to over breed etc, but for the love and passion of maine coons and providing the cats we have with a happy home environment. We are currently converting a room for them now to have a cat tree and lots of toys. They are our babies. 

Any help / guidance / resources would help. How many cats did you start out with, how many have you got now? 

Thanks x


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Are your girls registered? Did you buy them with breeding in mind? If so are they on the active register? If so is the breeder you bought them from not offering to mentor you?


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

David C said:


> Are your girls registered? Did you buy them with breeding in mind? If so are they on the active register? If so is the breeder you bought them from not offering to mentor you?


Hi my partner bought me my 1st maine coon for an early 40th birthday present and I wasnt bothered about the paperwork at the time, I just fell in love with her. I know looking back I should have got papers for both but I didnt. The parents had paperwork but they didnt register the kittens.

Its only through my experience I see how it shouldnt be done. Ive become a little obsessed by maine coons since, the correct features they should have etc after seeing so many people selling maine coons that are clearly cross. And I have a huge love for this breed, ive always adored cats and breeding main coons would be a passion for me and something I would put 100% into if I was to persue it.

If I wanted to start breeding on a very small scale I would have to buy an active girl. She will be raised as a pet with the other 2 girls. I just wanted to hear other peoples experiences.

How did you start out. 
What mistakes did you make
what would have done differently
what would you definitely do

Everyone has to start somewhere so any advice, tips are welcome 

Thanks


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Working full time _and_ having children i would not breed, breeding takes a lot of time and dedication.
Also think very carefully if the world really needs yet another MCO breeder.

I started by showing neuters for several years, then shadowing a breeder to attend births, learn all about breeding, stud care, calling girls - spraying, the noise if you have neighbours, changing dynamics of hormonal cats all need careful consideration.

Showing for me goes hand in hand with breeding, a great way to meet other breeders, for many it opens doors that would otherwise be closed. And it's fun.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

I would still be working full time but it would be my partner who takes on the responsibility whilst i'm at work but we would both attend shows.

Did you have a full time job when you started breeding? Thats why we want to start small with 1 or 2 cats. How many cats do you breed currently and I take it your a full time breeder? Myself and my partner love cats if I could be a full time breeder I would give my job up in a second. 

Ive been present for many cat births over my life time, all moggies and I know what to expect, the signs, the risks, the symptoms.

I know you might think "another breeder" but I have high standards and I don't do things by halves if I am committed to doing something. The main priority will always be the cats before anything. I have seen plenty of breeders that I wouldnt want to be and some I would aspire to be like.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

blacksmokequeen said:


> I would still be working full time but it would be my partner who takes on the responsibility whilst i'm at work but we would both attend shows.
> 
> Did you have a full time job when you started breeding? Thats why we want to start small with 1 or 2 cats. How many cats do you breed currently and I take it your a full time breeder? Myself and my partner love cats if I could be a full time breeder I would give my job up in a second.
> 
> ...


There are so many aspects of breeding and starting out breeding.

You mention it would be nice to give up your job to become a breeder. I can't remember the exact saying and I probably have it wrong, but it goes something like "if you want to make a small fortune from breeding, start out with a big one".

I have been breeding and showing British Shorthairs for more than 35 years and I think the main piece of advice I would give is don't start unless you're confident you have a substantial disposable income or a lot of savings to devote to it. One guarantee is that it will be hugely more expensive than you could imagine and large, unexpected expense can crop up fairly regularly.

It is a hobby that demands both a lot of your time but also a lot of money. The two are not always compatible. In my experience, by far the most common cause of breeders running into trouble stem from them trying to cut corners due to finances and 'growing' their breeding far too quickly.

Start very, very small and progress slowly.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Loving the breed is the right place to start but there are a huge number of pitfalls along the way. And despite having fostered several litters, I find when one of my own girls has kittens it's far more stressful especially if there are problems as it's down to me she is pregnant. I choose to not neuter her, and to get her mated.

Getting an active girl isn't easy. I was fitted up with one by a friend, and she turned out to be a super mother and produced two lovely litters. Not all do. Her breeder is now a closer friend than the original friend who fitted me up with her, and that's important as you need someone you can turn to for help. Fortunately she is a very level headed woman without airs & graces, there are some terribly self-centred and entitled people (not to say arrogant) breeding cats.

This is a very good reason to show a neuter first, as you get the chance to make personal connections with breeders. I'd also suggest you get into stewarding at shows. Obviously for judges who do MCO, but it's good to see plenty of other breeds as well, anything from Persians to Siamese.

Join a breed club. You get discounts at Langford for DNA testing, and when you come to register a prefix you will need a club to endorse your application. And when you choose a prefix keep it short (leaves more letters for the rest of the name) and not breed-specific is advisable. And help them run their show.

Start with just one girl, and be picky about any daughters you keep for breeding. With luck you are in an area where there are several studs available to you - don't get a stud until you absolutely have to. 

Studs are hard work, and you need to be able to either give them their own wee-proof room in the house or have room in the garden for a stud house, which needs to be insulated & heated with a secure outside run. I had to get one in the end because the only breeder within a reasonable distance whose boys I would have used was breeding in a completely different direction, colour wise. I struck very lucky with Basil as he has the most delightful personality (possibly the most important consideration), doesn't stink like some boys do, is fertile (though not many girls so far!) and his breeder is now a good friend. 

Unfortunately the MCO is plagued with any number of BYBs, like the people your first girl came from (I imagine the parents were not registered active), and dodgy breeders. There are also dodgy breeders who register. I once took a girl to stud over 250 miles away and didn't leave her as the conditions were dreadful.

Don't underestimate the work involved, and the possibilities for heartbreak especially if your children are living at home - as you say your are over 40 they may well be about to leave but a disaster litter is deeply upsetting. They are not common but they happen.

An out of hours emergency can easily cost well over £2k, you need deep pockets. You can insure breeding girls but it's expensive and as far as I know has quite a few 'gotchas'.

I also wouldn't have started breeding unless I could find a local vet who would neuter my kittens before they left. Thankfully when she retired I found another one, otherwise I would have stopped.

I've also had to rehome cats I adored as they were either being bullied, or bullies. Heart-breaking but they all got good homes. The more cats you have the more likely this sort of problem is to arise, so however deep your pockets and large your house keeping several breeding girls plus neuters can get very fraught. The problems are not always obvious either.

Another thing that happened was trapping a male who was super-athletic and could get in & out of my garden! The cat-proofing has since been upgraded, and I paid for him to be castrated. Luckily he didn't mate either of the girls.

I did work full-time when I started breeding BUT I worked flexible hours almost entirely at home, so I was able to feed kittens every 2 hours night & day when a girl lost her milk. My vet was close by so vet trips not a problem. However there have been times when someone to share the work would have been more than welcome.

I've also moved twice to be in the right house to breed!

Having said all that, and read the other responses, hopefully you are in a better position to decide what to do. If you go ahead, any kittens will be 2-3 years away.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Getting an active girl isn't easy.


I should have written 'Getting an active girl _from a reputable breeder _isn't easy'. There are breeders who will sell registered active girls to anyone, no questions asked, nearly always for a rather large sum of money.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

A lot of excellent advice has been posted above. The fact you are enthusiastic about the breed is a good start, however it is now incredibly difficult to get started in breeding even if you are well known, buying an active cat has become a nightmare. You will require an immense amount of patience to find a) a breeder who will help you and b) the right kitten to come along. This could take years, but it will be worth the wait, because if you settle for second best, then you are already holding the dirty end of the stick and will have to fight for a long time to get to where you want to go. My other thoughts are:
1. IMHO you cannot possibly hope to be a good breeder if you do not show, especially in the early part of your breeding career. Nothing will teach you about type better than putting your animals up against others to be critiqued by someone else. 
2. You can read all the books and do all the research you like but nothing will actually prepare you for the realities of being a breeder. I'm not saying research isn't important because it absolutely is, but the fact that your heart will regularly be ripped out, hurled against a wall and trampled into the ground is never conveyed in any book.
3. The amount of work that goes into a litter of kittens is not in any book either. I've been breeding for many years and it still never fails to surprise me how much effort goes into raising healthy kittens, the constant feeding and cleaning etc.
4. Maine Coons are a popular breed and there are a lot of people breeding them. If there are a number of well established reputable breeders already in your area (and by that I mean county, not just town) then you will struggle to find good homes for your kittens. It takes several years before you start to get enough unsolicited contacts for kittens, prior to that you will have to advertise, and wade through all the chaos that brings.
5. There is a reason why most of the breeders in the cat fancy are older; trying to breed while being at work, even part-time, is very tricky. You do need an employer who will allow you to take leave, possibly with little to no notice, when kittens are born because you need to be there for the event. A pregnant queen in the final week needs regular checks and as the birth approaches she cannot be left alone even for an hour. Raising a litter will take up almost 6 months of every year; 6 months of no holidays, going away for a night or socialising. It's a very big commitment.
6. Know what it is you want to achieve. Are you particularly interested in a particular colour or pattern (MCs come in many)? Do you want to specialise in a particular colour? Do you understand how the genetics of that colour/pattern works? Do you understand the diseases of the breed, what can be tested for and how those diseases are inherited?

Start small, with one queen and stick with one queen until you understand the breed better have had a least two litters and know that breeding is for you. I've seen many newbies rush in get two maybe three queens, sometimes even a stud, then end up struggling to cope. They keep back kittens that are of poor quality because they either couldn't sell them or hadn't got a clue what they were doing. They end up over-faced and over-catted and cats suffer. Don't be this type of breeder.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> You get discounts at Langford for DNA testing


Other labs do full panel tests that can be better value than those charging per test.
MCO also require their hips checks and HCM scans which can be costly.
Far too many UK MCO breeders seem to ignore those all important checks.



blacksmokequeen said:


> Ive been present for many cat births over my life time, all moggies and I know what to expect, the signs, the risks, the symptom


Were you breeding moggies? Or fostering? 
Birthing is a small part of living with entire cats.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I was advised before I started breeding to have a savings account with at least £3K in for emergencies. Breeding is an expensive hobby, if you are lucky you break even. Blue became unwell in week 7 of pregnancy requiring ‘IV fluids I felt awful as I had made her that unwell by mating her. She was on and off IV fluids until she had an elective c-section at day 62 of pregnancy as the vets felt she wasn’t going to be well enough to give birth and no one wanted her to struggle in labour at 3am and have a very expensive trip to the OOH vets fir an emergency c-section. Her vets bills was in excess of my savings, it would have been a whole lot more expensive if it turned into a OOH emergency section. Amazingly she had 5 kittens who are all over a year old now. One of the munchkins at 10 weeks old ended up with a bowel blockage and rectal prolapse that required a week of IV fluids and a trip to the OOH vets. Thankfully she was a potential keeper so I had insured her at 8 weeks at the insurance company covered it 

I got a neuter boy who I showed and my first breeding girl came from the same breeder 2 years later who had become a good friend and mentor. I also used one of her stud cats for my first mating. Showing had meant I have got to know other breeders and have had access to stud cats that you wouldn’t usually be able to.

Both my husband and I work full time and having kittens basically means we don’t see each other as one is cleaning litter trays, bowls, hoovering etc. And the other is socialising and playing with the kittens. I get up an hour earlier to clean and feed the kittens before work. We have just neutered all bit one girl and she has the superlorin implant in as due to COVID I can’t guarantee due to my job that I will be able to take leave when a girl is due and I worked extra hours during the peak last I was time.

However watching the kittens grow and their personalities change is so much fun. Having your hombred kittens go best in show is the best feeling ever. I do not regret the sleeplessness night or the fact my savings are currently non existent.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

We've heard from plenty of current breeders, most but not all in the UK, what does @blacksmokequeen think?


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Thank you for your replay. This is exactly what I wanted to hear. Its funny you mention you moving 2 times for the cats as I have already started looking for more suitable homes for the near future. Currently we have a large spare bedroom for the 2 girls (they currently sleep in our room anyways) but we will be putting toys, cat trees etc in this room and this will also be a kitten room.
> 
> I have found and befriended some amazing breeders also, I have a an active boy coming Oct and I just need an active girl. I want to start small, go to shows and take it from there. Thank you for the tips on the prefix. I would neuter and spay my litter, possibly only sell one from each litter on the active register.
> 
> ...


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Thank you for your replay. This is exactly what I wanted to hear. Its funny you mention you moving 2 times for the cats as I have already started looking for more suitable homes for the near future. Currently we have a large spare bedroom for the 2 girls (they currently sleep in our room anyways) but we will be putting toys, cat trees etc in this room and this will also be a kitten room.
> 
> I have found and befriended some amazing breeders also, I have a an active boy coming Oct and I just need an active girl. I want to start small, go to shows and take it from there. Thank you for the tips on the prefix. I would neuter and spay my litter, possibly only sell one from each litter on the active register.
> 
> ...


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

Tigermoon said:


> A lot of excellent advice has been posted above. The fact you are enthusiastic about the breed is a good start, however it is now incredibly difficult to get started in breeding even if you are well known, buying an active cat has become a nightmare. You will require an immense amount of patience to find a) a breeder who will help you and b) the right kitten to come along. This could take years, but it will be worth the wait, because if you settle for second best, then you are already holding the dirty end of the stick and will have to fight for a long time to get to where you want to go. My other thoughts are:
> 1. IMHO you cannot possibly hope to be a good breeder if you do not show, especially in the early part of your breeding career. Nothing will teach you about type better than putting your animals up against others to be critiqued by someone else.
> 2. You can read all the books and do all the research you like but nothing will actually prepare you for the realities of being a breeder. I'm not saying research isn't important because it absolutely is, but the fact that your heart will regularly be ripped out, hurled against a wall and trampled into the ground is never conveyed in any book.
> 3. The amount of work that goes into a litter of kittens is not in any book either. I've been breeding for many years and it still never fails to surprise me how much effort goes into raising healthy kittens, the constant feeding and cleaning etc.
> ...


Thank you Tigermoon.

No I definitely dont want to be this type of breeder. And I agree with everything you say. Im not doing it for the money, hence why I will start off small and not rush into getting 4 cats at once.

The colours I want to breed are black smoke, grey smoke and silver tabby. But to be honest I absolutely love them all. Which was one of the reasons I thought about breeding because I want to breed a quality maine coon, correct face profile, lynx tups, the looks is very important to me as well as the health. Im a bit OCD and once I start doing something im full force. The boy I have is amazing and comes from an amazing breeder. She studied genetics and all of her cats are excellent health.

A few questions about showing:

Do you need to invest on any special equipment
how long are the shows? 
Are they all day events? 
Do you also pay to enter? 
Which are the best to enter?


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

lillytheunicorn said:


> I was advised before I started breeding to have a savings account with at least £3K in for emergencies. Breeding is an expensive hobby, if you are lucky you break even. Blue became unwell in week 7 of pregnancy requiring 'IV fluids I felt awful as I had made her that unwell by mating her. She was on and off IV fluids until she had an elective c-section at day 62 of pregnancy as the vets felt she wasn't going to be well enough to give birth and no one wanted her to struggle in labour at 3am and have a very expensive trip to the OOH vets fir an emergency c-section. Her vets bills was in excess of my savings, it would have been a whole lot more expensive if it turned into a OOH emergency section. Amazingly she had 5 kittens who are all over a year old now. One of the munchkins at 10 weeks old ended up with a bowel blockage and rectal prolapse that required a week of IV fluids and a trip to the OOH vets. Thankfully she was a potential keeper so I had insured her at 8 weeks at the insurance company covered it
> 
> I got a neuter boy who I showed and my first breeding girl came from the same breeder 2 years later who had become a good friend and mentor. I also used one of her stud cats for my first mating. Showing had meant I have got to know other breeders and have had access to stud cats that you wouldn't usually be able to.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply. Sorry to hear about the difficulties you had with your first litter. I have a boy now, I get him in october. I just need an active girl which I will hopefully get december time?

Do you have any advice on boys?? Iv read they need their own space. I wouldnt want to put him in an outdoor area, I would want him in the house with the rest of the cats and us. How do you stop him spraying, is there anything you can do? Do they spray all year or only in season? Thanks


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Studs are hard work, and you need to be able to either give them their own wee-proof room in the house or have room in the garden for a stud house, which needs to be insulated & heated with a secure outside run. I had to get one in the end because the only breeder within a reasonable distance whose boys I would have used was breeding in a completely different direction, colour wise. I struck very lucky with Basil as he has the most delightful personality (possibly the most important consideration), doesn't stink like some boys do, is fertile (though not many girls so far!) and his breeder is now a good friend.
> 
> As I am getting a boy in October - what would you reccomend. I am currently converting the spare bedroom into a cat room. When will he start spraying, will it be constant. Surely he cant be locked away in 1 room. I want him to be part of the family? Any advice welcomed.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tax depends what country and possibly state you are in.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Tax depends what country and possibly state you are in.


I am in ENGLAND


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

> > Studs are hard work, and you need to be able to either give them their own wee-proof room in the house or have room in the garden for a stud house, which needs to be insulated & heated with a secure outside run. I had to get one in the end because the only breeder within a reasonable distance whose boys I would have used was breeding in a completely different direction, colour wise. I struck very lucky with Basil as he has the most delightful personality (possibly the most important consideration), doesn't stink like some boys do, is fertile (though not many girls so far!) and his breeder is now a good friend.
> 
> 
> As I am getting a boy in October - what would you reccomend. I am currently converting the spare bedroom into a cat room. When will he start spraying, will it be constant. Surely he cant be locked away in 1 room. I want him to be part of the family? Any advice welcomed.


I recommend not getting him. I recommend waiting as long as possible before getting a stud, certainly not while you haven't bred any litters. And studs are often not like your run of the mill neutered moggie. Basil sprays every day, several times a day. They can be dangerous (possibly more so if sexually frustrated), are often hormonal, and if you try keeping him as part of the family 'oops' litters are highly likely. In my view the bigger the separation between him and any entire females the better.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

blacksmokequeen said:


> Thank you for your reply. Sorry to hear about the difficulties you had with your first litter. I have a boy now, I get him in october. I just need an active girl which I will hopefully get december time?
> 
> Do you have any advice on boys?? Iv read they need their own space. I wouldnt want to put him in an outdoor area, I would want him in the house with the rest of the cats and us. How do you stop him spraying, is there anything you can do? Do they spray all year or only in season? Thanks


I don't want to think what sort of breeder would sell an active boy to a new breeder with no experience and no active girls. As to how much & when they spray each boy is an individual. But he is either a stud or a pet, sadly no middle way for most boys. You might be able to have him in some of the time wearing stud pants, but they won't stop him mating a girl that's in call.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> I recommend not getting him. I recommend waiting as long as possible before getting a stud, certainly not while you haven't bred any litters. And studs are often not like your run of the mill neutered moggie. Basil sprays every day, several times a day. They can be dangerous (possibly more so if sexually frustrated), are often hormonal, and if you try keeping him as part of the family 'oops' litters are highly likely. In my view the bigger the separation between him and any entire females the better.


Please can I ask why he would be dangerous. What do you do with your boy? Is he socialised with the rest of the family? I dont want to just keep him in one room. When do they come into heat and at what age do you recommend my active girl to get pregnant. Thanks


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

blacksmokequeen said:


> I am in ENGLAND





blacksmokequeen said:


> Please can I ask why he would be dangerous. What do you do with your boy? Is he socialised with the rest of the family? I dont want to just keep him in one room. When do they come into heat and at what age do you recommend my active girl to get pregnant. Thanks


As you are breeding MCO, at least a 18 months before breeding a girl. Having to ask this question shows how unready to become a good breeder you are.

Ask yourself why a bull is more dangerous than a cow (unless she has a calf) or castrated male. The answer isn't because of his size - a Jersey bull is relatively small but very nasty. Some of this plays with stud boys. Again, having to ask this shows you are in no way ready to own a stud.

I've seen a photo of a nasty hand wound an experienced breeder's boy gave her when she got between him and a girl. It doesn't matter how well socialised a stud is, when a girl in call is in evidence (which could just be her scent on your clothes), some studs will do anything to get at her.

Did the person who is selling the stud ask how you would keep him? Selling a stud is a big deal, I would expect any good breeder to want to know exactly how you plan keeping him, and 'as a family pet' isn't a good answer. They really don't sound like a great breeder to me.

My own boy lives out in a stud house with a neutered friend. His matings have all been supervised in the kitchen. He was living in the kitchen but having to have cling film over the electrical sockets and start every day with looking for bits of pee to clean up was making me start to hate him. He also gave me the slip and mated a girl, just the once - luckily she didn't get pregnant.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> I don't want to think what sort of breeder would sell an active boy to a new breeder with no experience and no active girls. As to how much & when they spray each boy is an individual. But he is either a stud or a pet, sadly no middle way for most boys. You might be able to have him in some of the time wearing stud pants, but they won't stop him mating a girl that's in call.


I do have experience breeding normal moggies. More experience than probably most breeders had on their first litter. There are plenty of people who have active boys that stud them out also so why would it be a bad choice for a breeder to sell me a boy?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> I recommend not getting him. I recommend waiting as long as possible before getting a stud, certainly not while you haven't bred any litters


Can only agree. Sadly OS, think you're wasting your time giving good advice here.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

blacksmokequeen said:


> I do have experience breeding normal moggies. More experience than probably most breeders had on their first litter. There are plenty of people who have active boys that stud them out also so why would it be a bad choice for a breeder to sell me a boy?


Letting other people's girls in to use your boy is yet another level of responsibility. Hate to see you have bred moggies, got to ask why? Did you simply let females out to get pregnant? Mating in the confines of a stud pen or kitchen is quite different to free-roaming mating in a whole host of ways.

Also have you thought about how your breeding will develop? Once you have your own boy you mate your girls, you keep daughters, what then? You can't use him with his daughters, you need another stud! Start by using other people's studs.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Did the person who is selling the stud ask how you would keep him? Selling a stud is a big deal, I would expect any good breeder to want to know exactly how you plan keeping him, and 'as a family pet' isn't a good answer. They really don't sound like a great breeder to me.


I have a room I am doing up for the cats. This could easily be a room for him. Its huge and will have everything he needs and more! BUT I dont want to just outcast him.

Can I ask when you had your boy did your breeder ask where you was keeping yours as you had yours in the kitchen to start. Like a said everyone starts off somewhere and I think the maine thing a breeder should be concerned about is the type of person their cat is going to. There are some awful people out there who treat animals as stock and just see money. This is not me. She knows the boy will be loved. What more can she want.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Letting other people's girls in to use your boy is yet another level of responsibility. Hate to see you have bred moggies, got to ask why? Did you simply let females out to get pregnant? Mating in the confines of a stud pen or kitchen is quite different to free-roaming mating in a whole host of ways.
> 
> Also have you thought about how your breeding will develop? Once you have your own boy you mate your girls, you keep daughters, what then? You can't use him with his daughters, you need another stud! Start by using other people's studs.


See this is hat I dont like. I simply asked for peoples experience and it always turns into people being rude. Yes I have been present for many of my cats births. Im 40 so ive lived a while. I never sad I let my cats out to roam, that was your presumption. I understand being a stud and the responsibilities but you said no reputable breeder would sell an active boy, and thats not true.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

blacksmokequeen said:


> I have a room I am doing up for the cats. This could easily be a room for him. Its huge and will have everything he needs and more! BUT I dont want to just outcast him.
> 
> Can I ask when you had your boy did your breeder ask where you was keeping yours as you had yours in the kitchen to start. Like a said everyone starts off somewhere and I think the maine thing a breeder should be concerned about is the type of person their cat is going to. There are some awful people out there who treat animals as stock and just see money. This is not me. She knows the boy will be loved. What more can she want.


The breeder I brought Basil from grilled me for almost an hour on the phone - as we are at opposite ends of the country visiting wasn't a question. I also had a track record of breeding & showing, with some success, one of the two colours she specialises in. I was super-honest with her, the consequence is I have Basil and she is now a good friend.

Your desire to love your boy is clouding your mind to the real difficulties of keeping a stud. Don't confuse 'lurve' with genuinely looking at his needs & requirements and meeting those, even though they may not be ideal from your PoV.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

blacksmokequeen said:


> See this is hat I dont like. I simply asked for peoples experience and it always turns into people being rude. Yes I have been present for many of my cats births. Im 40 so ive lived a while. I never sad I let my cats out to roam, that was your presumption. I understand being a stud and the responsibilities but you said no reputable breeder would sell an active boy, and thats not true.


Breeding moggies is much frowned on here as there are simply far more cats than good homes. And at 40 you are hopefully only 1/2 way through your life, less through your adult life, so you have more living in front of you than behind you.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> The breeder I brought Basil from grilled me for almost an hour on the phone - as we are at opposite ends of the country visiting wasn't a question. I also had a track record of breeding & showing, with some success, one of the two colours she specialises in. I was super-honest with her, the consequence is I have Basil and she is now a good friend.
> 
> Your desire to love your boy is clouding your mind to the real difficulties of keeping a stud. Don't confuse 'lurve' with genuinely looking at his needs & requirements and meeting those, even though they may not be ideal from your PoV.


Thank you and thats fine. This is why I am here. I want to know more. I could quite easily put him in the cat room, if this is what breeders do with their boys. I am interested to hear other peoples points of view on how they keep their boys? As I believe not all keep them in a separate building.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Breeding moggies is much frowned on here as there are simply far more cats than good homes. And at 40 you are hopefully only 1/2 way through your life, less through your adult life, so you have more living in front of you than behind you.


I really hope that is true. We will see. It might be frowned upon but all my kittens have gone to loving family homes. Something I dont regret and has made the person I am today.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

blacksmokequeen said:


> Thank you and thats fine. This is why I am here. I want to know more. I could quite easily put him in the cat room, if this is what breeders do with their boys. I am interested to hear other peoples points of view on how they keep their boys? As I believe not all keep them in a separate building.


Keeping a stud in a stud house in the garden is pretty normal in the UK. In other countries - where homes are usually larger than here - they are often kept in a room of their own in the house.

But these are all questions (including how old before breeding an MCO girl for the first time) you should have resolved well before buying an active girl, let along an active boy. My advice, and it's the last I will give, is that it sounds like you are rushing and letting 'lurve' cloud your judgement. Put getting cats on hold for a year or so.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Keeping a stud in a stud house in the garden is pretty normal in the UK. In other countries - where homes are usually larger than here - they are often kept in a room of their own in the house.
> 
> But these are all questions (including how old before breeding an MCO girl for the first time) you should have resolved well before buying an active girl, let along an active boy. My advice, and it's the last I will give, is that it sounds like you are rushing and letting 'lurve' cloud your judgement. Put getting cats on hold for a year or so.


Thank you. I also have heard horror stories of cats being stollen so this is something I would be hesitant to do. I would however consider giving him his own room. I have already started looking at property which is bigger and suitable for the cats. Im still not sure what the problem is in having a boy and and an active girl to start. Thats what stud pants were made for right? There was obviously a need in the market and I wont be the first or last to purchase them.

Thank you for all your feedback though. Its been great to hear your story.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

blacksmokequeen said:


> Im still not sure what the problem is in having a boy and and an active girl to start. Thats what stud pants were made for right? There was obviously a need in the market and I wont be the first or last to purchase them.


As a rule of thumb an active stud boy needs 3 females to keep him happy. An unhappy stud can become aggressive, howl for a mate and spray more (probably more than stud pants were designed for!)
The majority of breeders do not start out with a stud. I still consider myself a novice in breeding compared to some of our members but even after 11 years I know I am still not ready to have my own boy. I am surprised that another breeder would happily sell you an active registered boy to be honest but perhaps it's easier in the Maine Coon world than with Siamese.
If your heart and mind are set on this I doubt that any advice will dissuade you but you should know all of the pitfalls before you start. Breeding can be rewarding (not financially!) but it can also be heartbreaking. You need a good mentor who will tell you the truth about what can go wrong from illnesses to birthing problems.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

blacksmokequeen said:


> Thank you. I also have heard horror stories of cats being stollen so this is something I would be hesitant to do. I would however consider giving him his own room. I have already started looking at property which is bigger and suitable for the cats. Im still not sure what the problem is in having a boy and and an active girl to start. Thats what stud pants were made for right? There was obviously a need in the market and I wont be the first or last to purchase them.
> 
> Thank you for all your feedback though. Its been great to hear your story.


I've never aspired to breed anything but it's been made clear to you that an active stud needs to be active. One queen is not sufficient for him. And neither of your current cats are apparently of breeding quality. It's pretty clear you are going about this completely from the wrong end, in spite of saying you want to do it right and being given a lot of advice from experienced breeders on how to start.

Talking about getting a stud before you've even been to a show or learned anything about the world of breeding, or found a mentor. Not to mention anyone who would sell someone in your position a stud is not someone I would trust to sell a healthy superior breeding specimen cat. A ethical responsible breeder who cares about their lines wouldn't sell you a stud at this point in your program.

As for you bragging about all the moggies you've bred....this leaves me speechless, what kind of person thinks breeding moggies is okay? Your priorities are not in the right order to becoming a responsible ethical hobby breeder at this moment.

Go back to the beginning, spay your two females, cancel the stud and start going to shows and learning. As has been said in this thread, that is the correct way to get into responsible ethical hobby breeding for the benefit, improvement and love of breed.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

*sigh* 

I came back to see if there was any reply and all I can say is I am bitterly disappointed  Yes the Cat Fancy needs new people to join in and help it last into the future but not like this; another newbie rushing in again :Facepalm Whatever happened to starting with _just one_ nice quality queen, showing her as a kitten and young adult, then having a couple of litters from her under the guiding hand of a decent breeder????

Nothing else to say really :Muted


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

lorilu said:


> I've never aspired to breed anything but it's been made clear to you that an active stud needs to be active. One queen is not sufficient for him. And neither of your current cats are apparently of breeding quality. It's pretty clear you are going about this completely from the wrong end, in spite of saying you want to do it right and being given a lot of advice from experienced breeders on how to start.
> 
> Talking about getting a stud before you've even been to a show or learned anything about the world of breeding, or found a mentor. Not to mention anyone who would sell someone in your position a stud is not someone I would trust to sell a healthy superior breeding specimen cat. A ethical responsible breeder who cares about their lines wouldn't sell you a stud at this point in your program.
> 
> ...


OK I will take your advice and do just that!


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

Tigermoon said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I came back to see if there was any reply and all I can say is I am bitterly disappointed  Yes the Cat Fancy needs new people to join in and help it last into the future but not like this; another newbie rushing in again :Facepalm Whatever happened to starting with _just one_ nice quality queen, showing her as a kitten and young adult, then having a couple of litters from her under the guiding hand of a decent breeder????
> 
> Nothing else to say really :Muted


I wanted the boy and girl I get to grow up together. Is there anything wrong with that?


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

We kept one of the Male kittens from a litter entire and ran him on. He didn’t live with me but a very good friend foremost as a pet but had rather good type. He lives with a neutered Male and female. As there weren’t any entire cats he didn’t spray or exhibit any ‘manliness’ as he would have been neutered if he had. It was a completely different story when he was at mine with the entire girls, he sprayed every vertical post and tried to get through two doors to get at his mother who was also calling as Blue wasn’t being receptive enough. He did return back to normal once he went home (hence the unusual decision to bring him to mine rather than the girl to the stud).
My house stank of Male cat which was a bit unfortunate as we were selling it at the time but Blue has to be mated as she was in near constant call.
I wouldn’t keep an entire Male personally without a decent sized outdoor run and the time to spend time with him.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm old enough to have seen a lot of changes in cat breeding and the cat fancy, but not so old that I cannot embrace that change when it's for the good. Some things, concepts and ideals, remain constant however.

Until you see the offspring from your girl(s) to a few studs you cannot possibly have an idea of where you need to seek to make improvements. Buying a stud at the outset is probably one of the most ill thought out concepts which has become more common in the last 15 years or so.

When I started out breeding - and no, believe me, I do not look back through rose tinted specs - nobody, and I mean nobody, started out owning their own stud. There are any number of reasons why not and I'm happy to go into detail if the OP has any interest in reading it.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

@gskinner123 I do wonder if people who buy a Male at the outset have smelt stud Pee let alone been covered in it.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

lillytheunicorn said:


> We kept one of the Male kittens from a litter entire and ran him on. He didn't live with me but a very good friend foremost as a pet but had rather good type. He lives with a neutered Male and female. As there weren't any entire cats he didn't spray or exhibit any 'manliness' as he would have been neutered if he had. It was a completely different story when he was at mine with the entire girls, he sprayed every vertical post and tried to get through two doors to get at his mother who was also calling as Blue wasn't being receptive enough. He did return back to normal once he went home (hence the unusual decision to bring him to mine rather than the girl to the stud).
> My house stank of Male cat which was a bit unfortunate as we were selling it at the time but Blue has to be mated as she was in near constant call.
> I wouldn't keep an entire Male personally without a decent sized outdoor run and the time to spend time with him.


Thank you for your comment. We are having a catio built from the back of the patio and we will have a cat room also. I was going to have this for all of them but I could put the boy in here. I think from what ive read about boys from other posts on here is they are all different, some spray, some dont, some are aggressive, some arent. I read that a lady keeps her females in the enclosure and lets the boys roam because they had better personalities. I appreciate everyones comments and its great to read peoples experiences.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lillytheunicorn said:


> @gskinner123 I do wonder if people who buy a Male at the outset have smelt stud Pee let alone been covered in it.


Quite. Though I wish stud pee was the hardest thing to deal with!

It's a great shame we are where we are as far as studs go and it is a self perpetuating problem at least in my breed.

There has been a move away from showing of course; I'm not sure some even realise that at one time nobody who bred pedigree cats *didn't* show.

For the OP's benefit - established breeders who care deeply for a breed; breeders who understand the breed; who understand why it's such a bad idea to start out with a stud... Will not sell you a stud. You are left with the choice of breeders who are none of the above so you are starting out with inferior advice from a poor role model and almost certainly a cat with a pedigree that has nothing to offer the breed.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

gskinner123 said:


> I'm old enough to have seen a lot of changes in cat breeding and the cat fancy, but not so old that I cannot embrace that change when it's for the good. Some things, concepts and ideals, remain constant however.
> 
> Until you see the offspring from your girl(s) to a few studs you cannot possibly have an idea of where you need to seek to make improvements. Buying a stud at the outset is probably one of the most ill thought out concepts which has become more common in the last 15 years or so.
> 
> When I started out breeding - and no, believe me, I do not look back through rose tinted specs - nobody, and I mean nobody, started out owning their own stud. There are any number of reasons why not and I'm happy to go into detail if the OP has any interest in reading it.


Im happy to hear your stories and experience as to why you think its such a bad idea.

Why do some breeders seem to think they know best, there is no right or wrong way, although some breeders seem to think their way is best. Some breeders keep all their cats in the house a family, some separate them. Some think putting a boy with other neutered cats is enough for company, some dont, they want human interaction. The one thing I hope we all have in common is the love for the breed and the cat. Can any of the people who have commented above really say they have never made 1 mistake in the whole time of breeding. I dont think so. How do you become the best...the answer is experience. Im just starting my journey now but I know one thing I will not be is a breeder who looks down and trys to discourage other people to breed because they think they know it all.



gskinner123 said:


> Quite. Though I wish stud pee was the hardest thing to deal with!
> 
> Its a great shame we are where we are as far as studs go and it is a self perpetuating problem at least in my breed.
> 
> ...


Can I ask why you think my stud would offer nothing to the breed. My stud is amazing and better than most of the studs ive seen.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

gskinner123 said:


> Quite. Though I wish stud pee was the hardest thing to deal with!
> 
> It's a great shame we are where we are as far as studs go and it is a self perpetuating problem at least in my breed.
> 
> ...


And I didnt say I wasnt going to show! I said that I certainly was.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Personally I wouldn’t keep the girls outside as it would be too stressful for them coming into unfamiliar surroundings to give birth. You also need to have a good bond with your girl as they may need to be given a helping hand and you want them to be as relaxed as possible especially maiden queens.

My first Queen with her first litter decided she needed to runaway from the pain and was trying to give birth doing laps of the room. I had to hold her whilst she had her first and then with my foot whilst breaking the amniotic sac as I was on my own as she didn’t know what to do and still wanted to do laps as she was already giving birth to the next kitten. Once she had a kitten to wash and the maternal hormones kicked in she shelled the rest like peas. If I didn’t have such a strong bond with her I suspect she may have attacked me. 

Some Males can be exceptionally loving but can equally be completely obsessed with sex. Equally some girls can be very lovely but can be hormonal. Some spray or piddle in every corner Others don’t. Sheep and Blue never piddled anywhere May (granddaughter and daughter) would literally piddle in every corner whether calling or not. Thankfully since neutering she has stopped.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OP, I wish you well. It is, or can be, the most wonderful hobby and for many it becomes a lifetime's passion.

I don't think I can add anything else. You have already decided that your stud is an amazing example of his breed and better than many out there. Hey, perhaps he is.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

lillytheunicorn said:


> Personally I wouldn't keep the girls outside as it would be too stressful for them coming into unfamiliar surroundings to give birth. You also need to have a good bond with your girl as they may need to be given a helping hand and you want them to be as relaxed as possible especially maiden queens.
> 
> My first Queen with her first litter decided she needed to runaway from the pain and was trying to give birth doing laps of the room. I had to hold her whilst she had her first and then with my foot whilst breaking the amniotic sac as I was on my own as she didn't know what to do and still wanted to do laps as she was already giving birth to the next kitten. Once she had a kitten to wash and the maternal hormones kicked in she shelled the rest like peas. If I didn't have such a strong bond with her I suspect she may have attacked me.
> 
> Some Males can be exceptionally loving but can equally be completely obsessed with sex. Equally some girls can be very lovely but can be hormonal. Some spray or piddle in every corner Others don't. Sheep and Blue never piddled anywhere May (granddaughter and daughter) would literally piddle in every corner whether calling or not. Thankfully since neutering she has stopped.


I wont be keeping any of my cats outdoors. They will all be indoor family cats. I have had really strong bonds with all my cats and know when they are going into labour. My previous cat used to want me to sit by her side throughout the entire labour. I was there for it all. She trusted me. I am not going into this blind I have a lot of experience with cats.

I just wanted to hear peoples stories about how they started, did they work, did they reduce their hours. But instead people have been so rude telling me to spay my cats.


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## blacksmokequeen (Sep 17, 2020)

gskinner123 said:


> OP, I wish you well. It is, or can be, the most wonderful hobby and for many it becomes a lifetime's passion.
> 
> I don't think I can add anything else. You have already decided that your stud is an amazing example of his breed and better than many out there. Hey, perhaps he is.


He really is. I have spent a lot of time researching making sure he is a fine example. But Ive been told that I have got my kitten from a bad breeder because they have agreed to give ME the kitten. And that he is a poor example of the breed. HOW people can make these assumptions is beyond me.

Members asking me did the breeder not ask where they stud would be kept, when they kept their stud in the kitchen. Pot calling kettle. I have a cat room so im more than prepared. Yet Im being told to spay my cats. Nothing like welcoming. I dont know if I will attend shows if they are all as welcoming as everyone here. As I will be just another newbie that doesnt know anything. One day I will have 15 years experience like the rest of you but I wont look down on new people wanting to breed.

Thanks


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

blacksmokequeen said:


> And I didnt say I wasnt going to show! I said that I certainly was.


Sorry, I should have expanded to say that it has become harder to find stud owners (I'm talking about proper, dedicated breeders..not people who just own a bunch of cats) who will accept outside queens and so the option of buying a stud of their own becomes more appealing to new breeders.

The reasons very many good breeders no longer do stud work are varied - but mainly because they have stud enquiries from people who

- have no interest in showing and ergo the breed

- the queen is not suitable for breeding, ie she is pet quality.

- the queen is not registered

- the queen is non-active registered

- frequently it is the attitude of the queen's owner. The stud owner feels that the person is not someone they could work with. You see, you have BIG attitude already.... breeders think they know it all etc etc. Yet you have never bred a litter or shown a cat but declare your stud cat better than most others. Welcome, it seems you are one of us already


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I think what @gskinner123 was imply that without knowing what you are looking for in the breed you don't know how to achieve the best out of your stud.

My first girl although a bit short in the head comes from a line of cats with longer heads. She also has amazing bony and a fantastic chin. I picked her from the litter as she had the best eye set and from following other breeders plans I have noticed that the eye set is the hardest thing to get back in my breed.

Her first litter was nice with one being rather nice . Her second litter we put her to the first litters sire's half brother bred by a different breeder who was just that bit nicer and a regular Best in Show winner and they complemented each other very nicely producing my very lovely multiple best in show winner and her sister who is also very good but loses out to her sister.

If I had had my own stud I wouldn't have been able to 'shop' around to find the right match.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

We only suggest that you started with a neuter to get your eye in with the breed and make develop
a network of breeders and support

The breeders here and that I know from showing have only been supportive of me as I started out with a neuter then two before getting my first Queen from lines I knew. I did consider getting a stud as some may remember from discussions on here before deciding that I realistically didn’t have the time to spend with him, work full time and not ruin my marriage. I would still end up going out to stud after a while if I wanted to keep any girls. Instead I provisionally chosen my next mating and are watching as his offspring develop with different girls.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Oops sorry deleted as double post


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

blacksmokequeen said:


> See this is hat I dont like. I simply asked for peoples experience and it always turns into people being rude. Yes I have been present for many of my cats births. Im 40 so ive lived a while. I never sad I let my cats out to roam, that was your presumption. I understand being a stud and the responsibilities but you said no reputable breeder would sell an active boy, and thats not true.





blacksmokequeen said:


> I wont be keeping any of my cats outdoors. They will all be indoor family cats. I have had really strong bonds with all my cats and know when they are going into labour. My previous cat used to want me to sit by her side throughout the entire labour. I was there for it all. She trusted me. I am not going into this blind I have a lot of experience with cats.
> 
> I just wanted to hear peoples stories about how they started, did they work, did they reduce their hours. But instead people have been so rude telling me to spay my cats.


No one's been rude to you. They've given you quality advice and shared some of their experiences. The problem you have is that you simply haven't liked the answers. This happens on forums quite regularly. People tell you what you _need_ to know - not what you _want_ to know.

I don't see any point in keeping this thread open now.

:Locktopic


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