# Training tips or advice on walking a strong dog



## Cherene (Nov 4, 2008)

We thinking about getting a dog from a friend who cant have him no more. 
He is about 2 years old and very big chocolate labrador, he will be our first dog  Theres a slight problem with him, and i want to know if he can be easily trained and that is.. he is very very very strong and last time i tried taking him for a walk, i ended up hurting my hands and arms from the lead and him pulling all the time. Basically i have to hold on to lamp posts and anything i can to stop him dragging me across the floor. 

Any tipss pleasee


----------



## Guest (May 8, 2009)

Labs are strong dogs right! Are we correct in assuming that he has had no lead training! And is he to be walked alone or with other dogs! The reason I ask this is because if you are walking with other dogs it is very hard to stop!

There are oudles of collars and leads available on the market! having tried most of em many are a waste of money! most of them being variations of another! Maybe it would be worth investing in a course of dog training classes.

There is a book that I used to go by - very short book as it happens called can't pull, won't pull!

DT


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi. There have been a number of threads on this subject. Have a look through for people's suggestions.

The only thing I would say, is it is about having a positive attitude. If you immediately take on the role of pack leader, from day one, you will be able to deal with any problems. Have you ever watched the Dog Whisperer on Sky 3 and Nat Geo channel? This is a good place to start. 

Problems with dogs are caused by lack of knowlege in dog psychology. Because people do not understand how they think, they inadvertandly end up dealing with things the wrong way. A good example of this is a dog who shows fear, say through fire works. The owner feeling sorry for the dog, gives it attention and comfort and says "don;t worry", similar to how they would deal with a small child. However, dogs not being small children, do not understand the human's intention. If you give attention and fuss to a dog, what are you saying? You are AGREEING with the behaviour and therefore the dog thinks he done what you want. therefore next time there are fire works he will become more afraid, because he thinks this is what you want. This is how phobia's can start.

You have a fantastic opportunity because you are seeking help before you take this dog on. This gives you a massive advantage and if you set rules and boundries for the dog from day one, you will not have a problem. 

When I took on my first 2 rescue's, I knew nothing about dog psychology and I made thiings even worse. I wish I had the opportunity again, with the knowledge I have now, because I wouln;t still have problems a year and a half later. Don't let this scare you as my 2 were street dogs from Greece and a lot different to a domesticated lab. However they are all dogs and I believe we do them a dis-service by not understanding them.

Well done for getting advice, take it the next step and learn about dogs properely. How you deal with the dog in the first few weeks, will set the tone for his behaviour and your relationship. Go easy on the fuss, and to start with just use it as a reward as opposed to "just because".

Best of luck x


----------



## isadobe (Mar 16, 2009)

I have found the canny collar a god's send without it i wouldn't be able to walk my lad 

like you my arms neck shoulders were in tatters :eek6:
but since the canny no probs at all :thumbsup:


----------



## Cherene (Nov 4, 2008)

Wow thankyou for all ur answers.. 
And thankyou goodvic .. really good tips i will take on.
cant wait to get him.. but theres so much more i need to sort out. 
And yes i need to look at leads too, the last time i took him out my friend put the chain around his neck and i suppose thats not good at all! 
I shall look at some leads! xx Thanxx


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Cherene said:


> Wow thankyou for all ur answers..
> And thankyou goodvic .. really good tips i will take on.
> cant wait to get him.. but theres so much more i need to sort out.
> And yes i need to look at leads too, the last time i took him out my friend put the chain around his neck and i suppose thats not good at all!
> I shall look at some leads! xx Thanxx


Hey no prob, hope it helps. The right lead is important, but it is about respect. If you dog respects you then he will walk next to you. If he does not see you as the leader then he will be pulling you. People often make the mistake of thinking it is about the collar or lead etc, when in actual fact it is about them seeing you as the boss!

Best of luck x


----------



## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

If he pulls, you stop and correct by bringing him to heel, set off, it he pulls you stop correct by bringing him to heel.

or

if he pulls (and he is beside you on a short lead) pull him towards you - his front legs should lift off the floor - DO NOT JERK THE LEAD, it may damage their throat. His instant reaction will be to pull away again - he'll do this maybe 4 - 5 times inwhich you should lift him off his front legs bringing him toward you. He'll get the idea.

or

when he pulls call his name, turn and go in the opposte direction.

or

when he pulls - give him plenty of lead, so he _runs over himself_ and change direction.

id personally go with the first. Labs arent that strong a puller generally so hes probably trying to show domanance - if any.


----------



## badabing (Apr 23, 2009)

what about taking him for a good long run and tiring him out then try walking with him.


----------



## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

The way we did it was to stop dead the second there was tension on the lead and only start walking again when he had come of his accord to our side. With my dog and his insane terrier stubborness we had to combine this with a halti but with a lab this shouldn't be necessary.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Do people only have a problem with dogs pulling forwards?
Mathew has a severe case of ADD and will pull all ways. He pulls forwards, then across the road to try and chase a carrier bag, then across you to look at a cat(and gets his feet stepped on numerous times), then he will stop dead to pick up a drink can or watch an ant, even to watch a plane in the sky!. Oh he also has to jump up and try and catch any low hanging greenery he see's!!Everytime I look down at him he is carrying a different, and increasingly bizzarre, item in his mouth and training with treats resulted in him jumping up and down in excitment and actually walking backwards to better watch the treat in my hand!
So any collar you'd reccomend or should I go straight to medication.LOL


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> Do people only have a problem with dogs pulling forwards?
> Mathew has a severe case of ADD and will pull all ways. He pulls forwards, then across the road to try and chase a carrier bag, then across you to look at a cat(and gets his feet stepped on numerous times), then he will stop dead to pick up a drink can or watch an ant, even to watch a plane in the sky!. Oh he also has to jump up and try and catch any low hanging greenery he see's!!Everytime I look down at him he is carrying a different, and increasingly bizzarre, item in his mouth and training with treats resulted in him jumping up and down in excitment and actually walking backwards to better watch the treat in my hand!
> So any collar you'd reccomend or should I go straight to medication.LOL


In your case I would recommend a doggie back pack. I use them for my 3 rescue dogs as they have issues on walks i.e other dogs, cats. By using these it sends them into working mode and makes them focus on the task in hand, and although does not erradicate the problem, it massively helps. It also stops the constant peeing! It also gives a tougher work out and drains energy faster. I build up the weight on my guys and when the sun is shinning and we are walking up hills - it sure tires them out. They carry poo bags, bottles of water, treats and anything else I can think of! I have been using them for about 4 months and I cannot recommend them enough. Only cost about 10GBP from ebay. :001_smile:


----------



## Cherene (Nov 4, 2008)

Thanx again everyone , good tips i will try. 
He doesnt see me the boss yet, and the idea of when theres any tension i should stop, thats not possible lol as he drags me down the road regardless, ive already ruined trousers because of him lol! I might do the, change direction idea, ive seen that on tv and it works well with some dogs !!


----------



## judetheobscure (Feb 24, 2009)

If he's already too strong for you, maybe you could adopt the puppy training approach of using treats to lure him to your side. Described in Gwen Bailey's Perfect Puppy book. You need lots and lots of tiny food treats and a "food driven" dog, which I believe labradors generally are.


----------



## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

Cherene said:


> We thinking about getting a dog from a friend who cant have him no more.
> He is about 2 years old and very big chocolate labrador, he will be our first dog  Theres a slight problem with him, and i want to know if he can be easily trained and that is.. he is very very very strong and last time i tried taking him for a walk, i ended up hurting my hands and arms from the lead and him pulling all the time. Basically i have to hold on to lamp posts and anything i can to stop him dragging me across the floor.
> 
> Any tipss pleasee


Hi Cherene,

Great that you are taking him on 

If he is pulling on the leash then he simply hasn't been taught to walk on a loose leash, and has instead been rewarded for pulling; meaning that pulling has allowed him to get to where he wants to go... sniff that tree, meet that dog, etc.

I'm afraid it hasn't got anything to do with whether a dog respects you or not, it is all down to training. A dog that has been trained to walk on a loose leash will do so for anyone that walks him, even someone he has just met. I can tell you this from regular first hand experience, because as well as being a dog trainer, I am also a dog walker.

This does not mean to say that your dog shouldn't respect you, he should but you simply have to control all the resources; food, attention, toys, etc. as well as activities; games, walks, sleep, interaction with other people and dogs, etc. If you control all of these as well as applying positive training methods you will be a benevolent leader, and you will have a dog that is happy to comply with your requests.

One of the best easy to follow books for training loose leash walking is by Turid Rugaas, but the great news is she now has a DVD.

Here is a link to an excerpt of her DVD: Huldra Forlag

And this is her website: Turid Rugaas - International Dog Trainer

You can also purchase the book on Amazon: My Dog Pulls. What Do I Do?

Hope this helps.


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

dogpositivetraining said:


> Hi Cherene,
> 
> Great that you are taking him on
> 
> ...


Sorry, have to disagree with this. A respectful dog will not pull but will follow you. The same way they should not charge through door ways first. My dogs have never been taught to "heel" in the training sense, the same way I have never taught them not to run down the stairs first. They just do all this because it is what I expect.

I think people talk about training far to much, which is human psychology on a dog, rather than work with what the dog understands. I think the sooner people cotton on to this, the happier our dogs will be and the better behaved. :dita:


----------



## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Sorry, have to disagree with this. A respectful dog will not pull but will follow you. The same way they should not charge through door ways first. My dogs have never been taught to "heel" in the training sense, the same way I have never taught them not to run down the stairs first. They just do all this because it is what I expect.
> 
> I think people talk about training far to much, which is human psychology on a dog, rather than work with what the dog understands. I think the sooner people cotton on to this, the happier our dogs will be and the better behaved. :dita:


Hi,

The suggestions I gave were relevant and helpful, so to just dismiss them is not very constructive. By dismissing them you are also dismissing renowned dog trainers like Ian Dunbar, Turid Rugaas, Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson, Patricia McConnell and many more.

I am aware your approach is based on dominance/pack theory, so I can understand why you disagree with my suggestions, but it is very blinkered to think that a dog will _*only *_follow you or not go through doorways first if they respect you. This is just not correct, it helps of course, but if a dog has been trained not to pull and not to charge through doorways first, then they won't, regardless of whether they respect you or not. And in a sense using the word respect is also applying human psychology to dogs. But hey we're humans so we have to use words 

Not quite sure what you mean when you write

_rather than work with what the dog understands_???

_*If*_ this means the dominant and corrective approach, then I don't agree with this way.

I am a positive trainer and my approach is based on scientifically proven learning theory. The same learning theory that is used to train killer whales at marine shows!


----------



## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

My dog respects me but she pulls on the lead. I know she pulls on the lead because she was brough up with a few other dogs who were alowed to walk infront.
I agree a respectful dog will stiill pull, they just haven't been taught where you want them to walk.

I would train this dog using methods you would use to train a puppy to heel. If possible I would even use clicker training- it has done wonders for my pup  Plenty of treats and keep treating the dog every time he is at the wanted position.

x


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

dogpositivetraining said:


> Hi,
> 
> The suggestions I gave were relevant and helpful, so to just dismiss them is not very constructive. By dismissing them you are also dismissing renowned dog trainers like Ian Dunbar, Turid Rugaas, Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson, Patricia McConnell and many more.
> 
> ...


I am not dismissing trainers, but I think it is far easier for owners to take a dog to a training class rather than apply the principles of leadership. Leadership is about being consistant 100% of the time and being the boss. I do have to say, that this is not applicable to most of the people on this forum, becuase everybody here is absolutely dedicated to their dogs. But there is a lack of information of this way of being with your dogs. "Training" is readily available while talk of the pack theory/dominance is not. Some might argue that that if I was correct then it would be the other way around. Who knows......

You talk about positive training methods, whilst I agree that this is fine for your average dog. If you have a dog with serious behavioural issues, then I feel that another approach is needed.

Example. My problem dog Max has, from day 1 tried to fight with the dog next door, through the fence. I openly admit, that I created this problem by not addressing it correctly from day 1 ( I knew nothing about dog psychology and this is part of the reason why I try to assist others). I have tried almost everything at this fence, including working with a behaviourist who has used positive methods. Because of the intensity he gets to, if the dog is the other side, absolutely nothing works. I got a new rescue in January, Sammy, who I actually got to try to help my guys. The only thing that can stop Max from doing this, is Sammy. When he gets out of control , Sammy goes to the fence and nudges him away, if Max does not listen, then Sammy will bite him and then Max moves. This is what I mean by working with "what the dog knows". This is how they deal with each other and in my opinion, if you work with their psychology and not our own, then you have more success.

I think respect is used in all species. If you look at how dogs behave in the park. Some are totally disrespectful to others, they charge and bark, whilst a respectful dog will approach in a calmer manner and go through the greeting ritual.

If somebody had given me the sort of advice on how to be the boss/pack leader, when I got my first 2 greek rescue dogs. I would never have ended up with the problems I have had and still do on occasions. There is no positive training you can give when you take on these sorts of dogs, who are so frightened of everything and everyone. What they needed from day 1 was for me to step up to the plate and show them I was the boss and I would take care of them. Instead I gave affection, I felt sorry for them and I brought every book on training, which did not help. I could barely touch them for the first few weeks. If I had had an understanding of dog psychology I would have realised that I was doing it all wrong.

This is why I am so passionate about this subject and if I can stop one person making the same mistakes I did, then it is worth it.

Your posts are always very informative and helpful to people, I just have a totally different perspective on it. :biggrin:


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

poisongirl said:


> My dog respects me but she pulls on the lead. I know she pulls on the lead because she was brough up with a few other dogs who were alowed to walk infront.
> I agree a respectful dog will stiill pull, they just haven't been taught where you want them to walk.
> 
> I would train this dog using methods you would use to train a puppy to heel. If possible I would even use clicker training- it has done wonders for my pup  Plenty of treats and keep treating the dog every time he is at the wanted position.
> ...


Dogs certainly do get into bad behaviours, and it becomes the norm, if not addressed from the outset. Just out of interest, is it the white dog who pulls? x


----------



## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

judetheobscure said:


> If he's already too strong for you, maybe you could adopt the puppy training approach of using treats to lure him to your side. Described in Gwen Bailey's Perfect Puppy book. You need lots and lots of tiny food treats and a "food driven" dog, which I believe labradors generally are.


Good advice!! Although my lab is getting there with lead training and many labradors are generally food driven, mine isn't haha. Though I kinda count myself lucky as he's so fit and healthy.


----------



## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> I am not dismissing trainers, but I think it is far easier for owners to take a dog to a training class rather than apply the principles of leadership. Leadership is about being consistant 100% of the time and being the boss. I do have to say, that this is not applicable to most of the people on this forum, becuase everybody here is absolutely dedicated to their dogs. But there is a lack of information of this way of being with your dogs. "Training" is readily available while talk of the pack theory/dominance is not. Some might argue that that if I was correct then it would be the other way around. Who knows......


Hang on in a previous post you were saying that it's all about respect and a dog will only follow you if they respect you, so this _*is*_ about leadership, and you were stressing the importance of this.

I on the other hand am saying that the two go hand in hand, you need to establish leadership by controlling resources/activities (not through dominance), AND you need to train the dog.

If you focus on the OP's problem of large strong lab pulling on leash, then in my opinion the approach of establishing leadership AND training, is a practical approach. Of course the OP can go to group training classes, but I would recommend she makes sure the trainer uses positive methods, leash corrections etc. simply aren't necessary.



goodvic2 said:


> You talk about positive training methods, whilst I agree that this is fine for your average dog. If you have a dog with serious behavioural issues, then I feel that another approach is needed.


This is where I disagree and is unfortunately the mistake many dog owners and indeed certain trainers make. A dog with behaviour problems should not be subjected to harsh or punitive methods. For example if a dog displays fear aggression then the last thing you want to do is pop or jerk the leash everytime another dog is present or approaching, this just says to the dog "hey I was right, the presence of other dogs makes bad things happen."

What you do want to do it take the dog through a behaviour modification program by applying desensitisation and counter conditiniong, using both classical conditioning and operant conditioning. By doing this the fear aggressive dog will eventually see other dogs as predictors of good things. Yes, it takes time, consistency, patience, there is no quick fix, but I'd rather have this outcome.



goodvic2 said:


> Example. My problem dog Max has, from day 1 tried to fight with the dog next door, through the fence. I openly admit, that I created this problem by not addressing it correctly from day 1 ( I knew nothing about dog psychology and this is part of the reason why I try to assist others). I have tried almost everything at this fence, including working with a behaviourist who has used positive methods. Because of the intensity he gets to, if the dog is the other side, absolutely nothing works. I got a new rescue in January, Sammy, who I actually got to try to help my guys. The only thing that can stop Max from doing this, is Sammy. When he gets out of control , Sammy goes to the fence and nudges him away, if Max does not listen, then Sammy will bite him and then Max moves. This is what I mean by working with "what the dog knows". This is how they deal with each other and in my opinion, if you work with their psychology and not our own, then you have more success.


But this does not help change Max's behaviour, he will still display aggression right. So this approach just distracts him, but doesn't change his emotional response.



goodvic2 said:


> I think respect is used in all species. If you look at how dogs behave in the park. Some are totally disrespectful to others, they charge and bark, whilst a respectful dog will approach in a calmer manner and go through the greeting ritual.


Unfortunately many dogs are under-socialised and therefore lack social skills, they don't mean to be rude, but they simply never learned social skills. But again this is something that can be trained, and clicker training is a wonderul way of doing this for such dogs.



goodvic2 said:


> If somebody had given me the sort of advice on how to be the boss/pack leader, when I got my first 2 greek rescue dogs. I would never have ended up with the problems I have had and still do on occasions. There is no positive training you can give when you take on these sorts of dogs, who are so frightened of everything and everyone. What they needed from day 1 was for me to step up to the plate and show them I was the boss and I would take care of them. Instead I gave affection, I felt sorry for them and I brought every book on training, which did not help. I could barely touch them for the first few weeks. If I had had an understanding of dog psychology I would have realised that I was doing it all wrong.


Positive training methods would work for your dogs, but you would first need to change your mindset and beliefs about what it is dogs need from us humans. In a sense your belief in dominance/pack theory is holding you back.

So I guess on many posts we will just have to agree to disagree. 

You might find it interesting to read these two blogs, both have fearful reactive dogs, and they have made great progress with their dogs using positive methods.

Boulder Dog » Blog Archive » Magic Touch for Fearful Dogs

Working with a fearful, scared or shy dog

I have suggested these because 90% of dogs display aggression because of fear



goodvic2 said:


> This is why I am so passionate about this subject and if I can stop one person making the same mistakes I did, then it is worth it.
> 
> Your posts are always very informative and helpful to people, I just have a totally different perspective on it. :biggrin:


Apologies to OP for going off topic


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Thank you for the links, it always good to hear success stories about other people x


----------



## slakey (May 9, 2009)

I have problems with Zeus pulling sometimes. I use the halty to aid me walking Zeus. He's generally okay with me, just my sister and dad moan that he's too strong and pulls.

Doesn't help that my dad takes him out on a extendable lead and lets him wonder off when he gets to the field. *am I right in saying this?*

But he's slowly getting better.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

> If you focus on the OP's problem of large strong lab pulling on leash, then in my opinion the approach of establishing leadership AND training, is a practical approach. *Of course the OP can go to group training classes, but I would recommend she makes sure the trainer uses positive methods, leash corrections etc. simply aren't necessary*.


Completely agree  Personally, I would try a headcollar with this dog (just to break the intensity of the pulling habit and make it a bit easier on the dogs neck and owners hands/arms) and couple that with some good heel training and I would have thought that would sort it with time and commitment and the headcollar would no longer be needed. Labs love their food so, I would have thought clicker training would be ideal. With some really high value food rewards like liver cake or frankfuter.



> This is where I disagree and is unfortunately the mistake many dog owners and indeed certain trainers make. *A dog with behaviour problems should not be subjected to harsh or punitive methods*. For example if a dog displays *fear aggression then the last thing you want to do is pop or jerk the leash everytime another dog is present or approaching,* this just says to the dog "hey I was right, the presence of other dogs *makes bad things happen*."
> 
> What you do want to do it take the dog through a behaviour modification program by applying desensitisation and counter conditiniong, using both classical conditioning and operant conditioning. By doing this the fear aggressive dog *will eventually see other dogs as predictors of good things*. Yes, it takes time, consistency, patience, there is no quick fix, but I'd rather have this outcome.


Completely agree again. I think that miss diagnosis of problem behaviours- such as aggression when the dog is labelled as a "dominant dog" is very often a massive injustice to our pets. Dominance/pack theory was a theory that was developed observing wolves and whilst there is evidence that there is something in it, much research has been done on behaviour in canines and how they learn etc...
Like you said in cases of fear aggression, negative/punishing methods just reinforce the fear. If a dog is fearful of other dogs and everytime the dog reacts you spray the dog in the face with water (attempting to "correct" the reaction) you very often just reinforce the negative associations with other dogs. Also correcting a dog for a warning growl can also lead to increased aggression in some cases- as the dog *may* skip parts of the aggression scale and show a more severe reaction. 
These sorts of problems are sometimes seen with resource guarding- a problem which many associate with the "dominant dog". It has since been suggested that this is not the case and that resource guarding is actually a form of fear- "fear of loosing desired object" (I think there is a book by Jean Donaldson called "Mine!" that my friend says was really good that tackled this problem- not read it myself). Often, correcting the dog when they growl as a warning in cases of resource guarding worsen the aggression as the dog realises that their previous reaction did not work- therefore the use a higher level of aggression.

Like you said behaviour modification IMO is in the long run the best way of tackling fear and fear aggression related problems as it modifies the emotional state of the dog in "fearful situation" and changes the dog's perception of the situation from "something to be feared" to a "positive" situation to be in.


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Hey no prob, hope it helps. The right lead is important, but it is about respect. If you dog respects you then he will walk next to you. If he does not see you as the leader then he will be pulling you. People often make the mistake of thinking it is about the collar or lead etc, when in actual fact it is about them seeing you as the boss!
> 
> Best of luck x


PMSL!!!

Lots of dogs pull on the way TO the field, but don't pull on the way back... presumably they don't respect their owner on the way there but suddenly respect them on the way back?

And there was me thinking that they were probably not pulling on the way home because they were more tired......


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> PMSL!!!
> 
> Lots of dogs pull on the way TO the field, but don't pull on the way back... presumably they don't respect their owner on the way there but suddenly respect them on the way back?
> 
> And there was me thinking that they were probably not pulling on the way home because they were more tired......


Just out of interest, how many dogs do you have? Are they rescue's or have you had them since a pup? :laugh:


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I trained Sky to walk properly from as young as possible. The best way I found was to put her in a harness and everytime she pulled, stop and pull her back until she's beside you.

I don't mind her walking in front of me, but I do not like her pulling at all. She's 6 months and already a big dog so I need the control.

Of course, she still pulls when she wants to sniff something really interesting but other than that, she walks really well.

You should be able to do this with your dog, even though he is now two. Good luck, patience and perserverence will win in the end x


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Just out of interest, how many dogs do you have? Are they rescue's or have you had them since a pup? :laugh:


I've got two - one from a pup, one from the age of 7. How is that relevant?


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> PMSL!!!
> 
> Lots of dogs pull on the way TO the field, but don't pull on the way back... presumably they don't respect their owner on the way there but suddenly respect them on the way back?
> 
> And there was me thinking that they were probably not pulling on the way home because they were more tired......


Lol. Very good point. My dog used to do this when he was younger. Pull on the 10 metre stretch towards the park and but other than that on the way there and back walked well. So he slipped into a state of lack of respect for me in that 10 metre stretch? :ihih: Not so sure about that one myself. I think he was just keen to get to the park and have a good walk.

He soon learnt to stop when he realised that every time he did pull on that stretch I'd just turn around, so he was better off walking nicely as he knew how to and getting to the park quicker.

I can see where you are coming from goodvic2- but in my opinion "dominance" and leadship isn't by any means the only thing that dictates canine behaviour. Everyone has their own perspective on things though, so fair enough. That's just my opinion on it


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Thing is, taking the "going through doorways before your dog" thing as an example - chances are, if you start making a point of making your dog wait for you to go first, especially if you teach using treats or praise, then the dog WILL start taking more notice of you, become more responsive etc. But it won't be because of any "dominance" malarkey - it's just that you have become more worthy of note. More INTERESTING.

I'm not saying that some aspects of rank reduction etc don't work - simply that they aren't working because of anything to do with dominance. They work because of the training aspect.


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> I've got two - one from a pup, one from the age of 7. How is that relevant?


Just wondering, because you are so highly critical of me. So you've obviously been in the same situation with this many dogs and therefore feel you have the experience to keep putting me down?

I have 4 dogs in my house, 2 foreign street dogs, 1 staffi and a bull dog. There needs to be a rank structure, I made the mistake when I first got them of not being firmly in charge and it back fired.


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Just wondering, because you are so highly critical of me. So you've obviously been in the same situation with this many dogs and therefore feel you have the experience to keep putting me down?
> 
> I have 4 dogs in my house, 2 foreign street dogs, 1 staffi and a bull dog. There needs to be a rank structure, I made the mistake when I first got them of not being firmly in charge and it back fired.


Congratulations on having so many dogs. I'm sure there is a rank structure within your pack - dogs usually sort it out among themselves anyway. And I'm sure you have them all well trained and under control. Well done :thumbup1:

My point is that, as many trainers/behaviourists will tell you, your dogs are well aware that you are not another dog so any attempts to be seen as "alpha dog" or similar are pretty meaningless.

The trainers at the Ob class I go to have 8 dogs between them, living in the same house and have no use for any Cesar-type jabbing, kicking, alpha-rolling or hissing. And yes, some of THEM are rescues.

It is perfectly possible to be "in charge" without resorting to the dominance theory


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

lemmsy said:


> Lol. Very good point. My dog used to do this when he was younger. Pull on the 10 metre stretch towards the park and but other than that on the way there and back walked well. So he slipped into a state of lack of respect for me in that 10 metre stretch? :ihih: Not so sure about that one myself. I think he was just keen to get to the park and have a good walk.
> 
> He soon learnt to stop when he realised that every time he did pull on that stretch I'd just turn around, so he was better off walking nicely as he knew how to and getting to the park quicker.
> 
> I can see where you are coming from goodvic2- but in my opinion "dominance" and leadship isn't by any means the only thing that dictates canine behaviour. Everyone has their own perspective on things though, so fair enough. That's just my opinion on it


Thanks for your reply. I appreceiate that everybody has their different views on things. I also agree that there are many ways to rehabilitate/train a dog. And it always depends on the individual dog.

With reference to your comment about your dog pulling there and not back and about respect. In your case I am sure it is excitment. But for dogs that pull constantly, paying no attention to the handler..... It's not just excitment. I lead walk my four dogs, and with a combined weight of 17 stone, I couldn;t possibly be in the position where even one dog was pulling. I have never attended training classes or practiced techniques, but just practice leadership. I can only go on my own experience x


----------



## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Thanks for your reply. I appreceiate that everybody has their different views on things. I also agree that there are many ways to rehabilitate/train a dog. And it always depends on the individual dog.
> 
> With reference to your comment about your dog pulling there and not back and about respect. In your case I am sure it is excitment. But for dogs that pull constantly, paying no attention to the handler..... It's not just excitment. I lead walk my four dogs, and with a combined weight of 17 stone, I couldn;t possibly be in the position where even one dog was pulling. I have never attended training classes or practiced techniques, but just practice leadership. I can only go on my own experience x


Dogs pull because they think that pulling is achieving what they want; to get to where they want to go.

If pulling stops working, they stop pulling.

I agree that there are many ways to stop them pulling, but ultimately it is nothing to do with respect. It is about what the dog perceives as working.


----------



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Dogs pull because they think that pulling is achieving what they want; to get to where they want to go.
> 
> If pulling stops working, they stop pulling.
> 
> I agree that there are many ways to stop them pulling, but ultimately it is nothing to do with respect. It is about what the dog perceives as working.


I think we need to agree to disagree, because all we are doing is taking over people's posts. :biggrin:


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Thanks for your reply. I appreceiate that everybody has their different views on things. I also agree that there are many ways to rehabilitate/train a dog. And it always depends on the individual dog.
> 
> With reference to your comment about your dog pulling there and not back and about respect. In your case I am sure it is excitment. But for dogs that pull constantly, paying no attention to the handler..... It's not just excitment. I lead walk my four dogs, and with a combined weight of 17 stone, I couldn;t possibly be in the position where even one dog was pulling. I have never attended training classes or practiced techniques, but just practice leadership. I can only go on my own experience x


Thanks for your reply. A very nice balanced post, taking into account other peoples opinions. 
At the end of the day, there are many ways to train a dog, what works for some people doesn't work for others. I often think of it as looking at a mountain from different angles. I personally like positive reinforcement methods, because I have found it successful with my dog and like it and the way that it encourages dogs to give a behaviour of their own will. However I think that it is true to say that too much of anything can be a bad thing. Discipline is also necesary. If a dog was to give an attention bark, the behaviour would be "punished" with an immediate withdrawal of attention.

That's the way I like to train my dog, some people may not choose that method themselves and prefer other ways. And so long as the way of training is kind, ethical and doesn't worsen a problem, good luck to to them


----------



## lady-dog-lover (May 21, 2009)

Hi all

After reading through this thread, alot of people seem to be recommending "dog walking aids" such as the canny or haltie?

My 2 dogs have been a problem on a lead for ages! But I have always wanted my dogs to walk well on a lead naturally without using equipment!

This is probably why I have been finding it harder! Anyway, I have listed a thread telling peeps about this website my best mate found and told me about and so far it seems to be working? Fingers crossed it stays that way! LOL

Good luck with your new dog Cherene! Labs are great dogs and defo worth the effort!

Sarah X


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

lady-dog-lover said:


> Good luck with your new dog Cherene! Labs are great dogs and defo worth the effort!


Well said!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

with many success stories, good updates, links...


----------

