# Unbeaten dog rule.



## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Now the shows have started again with the new unbeaten dog rule I was just wandering if anyone has or has seen any dog that has won its group only to be beaten in the stakes classes then go on to be awarded BIS, RBIS, BPIS or RBPIS.

At a recent open show my pup Phoenix was puppy group 4 but then went onto to win AV puppy dog beating the winner of the puppy group. The pup then went into BPIS but went no further. It was an open show and so the BIS judge also judged the AV classes. I know at shows were they have different judges judging the stakes classes and BIS then the outcome may be different.

It is just out of curiousity really that I wandered if any judge had given a dog beaten in stakes any of the top honours at a show.

I would be very surprised if it would happen at a show were the same judge did both AV classes and BIS but it could happen at a show usiing different judges.


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

I would imagine this rule is going to cause a bit of controversy at Open shows. Committee members seem to get agitated when a problem with rules and regs rears it's head. 

I was at a show, some years ago, where a breed was scheduled, without puppy classes, so an exhibitor had entered their puppy in AVNSC gundog puppy (if I remember rightly it was an American Cocker). That caused a bit of a heated debate! Can't remember how it was resolved, I think they let it go, with the view that those that weren't happy could take it up with the KC.

My friends and I usually do some stakes classes at Open shows, and to be honest, I think if I were fortunate enough to get BOB I would withdraw, to save any aggro.

I think champ shows will be more clued up.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

When Phoenix beat the dachsie that won the puppy group the steward went straight to the woman and told her it didn't knock her out of BPIS but with the same judge judging at an open show I would have been gutted if she had given the dachsie any of the top honours.

I can understand how it would work if they had a different judge for BIS but if the same judge has already placed another dog above it how could they possibly justify giving it anything more.


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

Interpreting all those KC rules and regs is a minefield! Sometimes you just have to keep your counsel, it's only a dog show at the end of the day, but sometimes if there is an injustice it is very hard. Still, that's life all over.

Still love my dog shows though, just have to try not to take it too seriously!


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I am the last one to take dog shows seriously if I am showing my own dogs its different if I am handling for someone else. My dogs are always the naughty ones. 

The question wasn't what the rules are I know that I wanted to know if and judge had yet put a dog up for top honours that had been beaten in the satkes classes.


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

Freyja said:


> I am the last one to take dog shows seriously if I am showing my own dogs its different if I am handling for someone else. My dogs are always the naughty ones.
> 
> The question wasn't what the rules are I know that I wanted to know if and judge had yet put a dog up for top honours that had been beaten in the satkes classes.


As the unbeaten rule has only recently been introduced I don't imagine it has been tested yet. To me it seems strange, but it is going to be wait and see I think.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Freyja said:


> Now the shows have started again with the new unbeaten dog rule I was just wandering if anyone has or has seen any dog that has won its group only to be beaten in the stakes classes then go on to be awarded BIS, RBIS, BPIS or RBPIS.
> 
> At a recent open show my pup Phoenix was puppy group 4 but then went onto to win AV puppy dog beating the winner of the puppy group. The pup then went into BPIS but went no further. It was an open show and so the BIS judge also judged the AV classes. I know at shows were they have different judges judging the stakes classes and BIS then the outcome may be different.
> 
> ...


I think it can be a great leveller even with the same judge - it has never sat comfortably with me where I've withdrawn a dog under the same judge in the AV Classes in order to go forward to the group, I feel that it is almost "offensive" to a judge's ability to be objective in each situation.

Ostensibly, it might seem strange to give the same dogs different positions, but the reality is - it isn't just about the dogs conformation to breed standard but movement and attitude, and a dogs performance can vary considerably between classes.

I had a lovely bitch who consistently performed better in subsequent classes because she was often way too hyper in her first class, but would then settle down and be much less giddy.

Before this unbeaten rule came in re: AV - quite a few times at breed and champ shows, I've had my own dogs switch places with dogs who've beaten us and vice versa.

It is consistent with the judges ability to assess each class objectively and not just assume that because dogs may have beaten other previously, that the outcome will automatically be the same as a previous line-up.

Before the rule change, I withdrew from the AV puppy Class, the winner of which won the group (and went on to get BPIS) - we got PG3 - under the new rules, we could have done both classes - it might have worked for or against us. This was a puppy group, but it could have been an AV Grad / Open class and a group and potentially denying an exhibitor ShCM points

Since the rules changed, yes, I have had an instance where we've not won an AV class, yet beaten the dog in the group - why? because according to the judge my dog moved the best it had all day when in the group".

Some dogs get better as time goes on, others "fade" (as happened to my pupster at one of his first champ shows. Now, his exuberance for showing is hilarious - I will stop showing a dog that doesn't enjoy it - but it's been a long time since I've had one that enjoys showing as much as this one.

Since I've starred showing, I've had both types of dogs, and under some judges, this has been reflected in their breed classes - why should the AV and Stakes classes be any different regardless of who is judging?


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