# I'm unhappy with my puppy and I think I should return her



## Rosie233 (Jun 25, 2019)

I got my puppy 5 days ago, I wanted her so badly as I'd never had a dog and had always loved them. She was very cute when we met her and seemed to love me and my partner, people told us it would be hard but I didn't realise how hard it actually is. 

Every day I am in tears, I think the puppy has separation anxiety she doesn't stop crying, you can't move without her sticking to you, if you go to the bathroom and shut the door she cries and cries and cries. We attempted to her to sleep in the bathroom with the radio on and some fairy lights on but she cried and screamed and scratched at the door and whimpered so we got her back out and sat with her. We haven't slept since we got her, today was the first day I have left her at home for a couple of hours and she's ripped up the carpet and the underlay. 

I feel so awful but I am crying everyday and have realised I can't cope with the puppy. I'm so anxious and on edge, all I can think about is how much I don't want her anymore and all I do is cry. I feel so terrible that I think this way because she deserves so much more she's a lovely dog but I just can't cope, she's making my depression and anxiety worse and I don't know what to do anymore. I'm starting a new job in a few weeks time which will mean I'm home less and I'm so worried that this will be detrimental to her health. 

I'm considering giving her back to the breeder as I want her in a loving home where she belongs. Please help me.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I would try and return her to the breeder



Rosie233 said:


> I'm starting a new job in a few weeks time which will mean I'm home less and I'm so worried that this will be detrimental to her health.


What do you mean by this? Did you know this when you got her?


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## Rosie233 (Jun 25, 2019)

rona said:


> I would try and return her to the breeder
> 
> What do you mean by this? Did you know this when you got her?


Yes but I have family all around me who said they will check on her and let her out for the toilet etc, it's not the issue of her being alone as she won't be for long periods at a time but it's the issue of her being alone with separation anxiety that I'm worried about. I don't want her to be unhappy.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

It's probably not separation anxiety at all, just a pup missing her litter mates and rather scared of all the new things she has to cope with. 
Have you seen this sticky?
https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/thinking-of-getting-a-dog-puppy-the-realities.134055/

Have a read through


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

give her back before shes completely ruined
your post is all about you you you not a thought to her
Harsh of me? yes, most certainly, but the truth nonetheless
Im totally fed up of people thinking an animal is a right not a privilige
get yourself a stuffed toy instead, less mess, it stays where you leave it and wont make a single noise


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## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

I have to agree I would return your pup to her breeder


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Pups do cry at first as others have said they miss their mum and siblings. Any responsible breeder will take a pup back. 

You need to build up leaving her slowly. I would always recommend sleeping with them the first few weeks it makes them feel more secure. 

How is she confined when you go out ? Initially I would only do a few minutes then build up. 

What breed is your pup ?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I would return her to the Breeder straight away, whilst she's still very young.


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## Rosie233 (Jun 25, 2019)

Boxer123 said:


> Pups do cry at first as others have said they miss their mum and siblings. Any responsible breeder will take a pup back.
> 
> You need to build up leaving her slowly. I would always recommend sleeping with them the first few weeks it makes them feel more secure.
> 
> ...


We were told to try her crate in our room, she settled for a little last night so we were going to try that again tonight and hope for the best. Today I left her the landing and the bathroom (pretty big size). I read that giving her free range of the while house isn't always a good thing and when we put her in the bathroom before she panicked and I didn't want her to be distressed while I was out.

She's a jack Russel x shih tzu


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

You've received some harsh responses

It is normal to feel like "WTF have I done" - your whole life and routine has been turned upside down by a little bitey terror they you don't yet have a bond with.










I went through each of those stages - it took me a good 6-7 months to even start really bonding with Lily, now I wouldn't change her for the world.

It's hard work raising a puppy - separation anxiety is something that needs to be slowly worked on in the dog's comfort zone, you can't expect a young puppy who has just left it's siblings, mum and everything it's ever known to simply settle right in and be fine being alone when the pup probably hasn't ever been alone - so you need to make it a positive experience, that won't happen over night. Crate training is something separate too - right now you might be expecting too much of the pup.

Look up kikopup (excellent youtube videos, she does have a puppy playlist) and puppy culture - an excellent source of information for raising puppies.

If you can't or don't want to - then the best thing to do is return the puppy.


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## Rosie233 (Jun 25, 2019)

You have no idea how relieving it is to hear that others have felt this way too. I think you may be right in that I'm expecting too much too soon, I have to remember she is a baby, I will have a look at those videos, hopefully they will help my puppy blues! Thank you so much.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Rosie233 said:


> Today I left her the landing and the bathroom


Not a place in the house that she ever spends much time I would imagine, so why did you leave her there?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Excellent advice from @ShibaPup!
Please read the Puppy thread for lots of support, specifically posts about 'Puppy Blues'.
If you really want to you can get through this , take one day at a time. 
I have a mantra '_ this too will pass'_
Can we see some photos ?


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## Rosie233 (Jun 25, 2019)

rona said:


> Not a place in the house that she ever spends much time I would imagine, so why did you leave her there?


She has free range of the house when we're home, we often play fetch in the landing as it's quite long as she's not yet allowed outside and the bathroom is were she comfortable using her puppy pads. So where should I have left her?


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Here is Kikpup's channel - https://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup/videos

I'd be taking the puppy outside - puppy pads can be really confusing to pups. If you have a private garden - there is very little risk taking the pup outside. 
I didn't have a private garden - I took my pup outside but kept away from heavy dog traffic areas and didn't allow her to meet other dogs.


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## rottieboys (Jan 16, 2013)

Please think of this puppy, let her go back to the breeder...Not fair if you have to go to work as well.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Rosie233 said:


> She has free range of the house when we're home, we often play fetch in the landing as it's quite long as she's not yet allowed outside and the bathroom is were she comfortable using her puppy pads. So where should I have left her?


That's fine as long as she is comfortable there. All you have to do is try and look at everything from her view point.

Think of you being in the care of some friendly aliens that you can't understand. Scary isn't it?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Rosie233 said:


> We were told to try her crate in our room, she settled for a little last night so we were going to try that again tonight and hope for the best. Today I left her the landing and the bathroom (pretty big size). I read that giving her free range of the while house isn't always a good thing and when we put her in the bathroom before she panicked and I didn't want her to be distressed while I was out.
> 
> She's a jack Russel x shih tzu


Absolutely free range is not best. Before you leave have a little play / training session. Leave with a nice stuffed kong (kongs are your friend) leave don't make a fuss. Come back soon no fuss again build up slowly. I really do think pups should come with a health warning. @shilbapup gives good advice. Get your pup in a good routine and sleep will return to your life.

Ps we do like pupp pictures


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Boxer123 said:


> Get your pup in a good routine and sleep will return to your life.


That's the key! I had both mine very tightly controlled with crate and puppy pen. It makes life so much easier. Having said that, i was there to supervise closely. And i am at home all the time which makes things easier. It sounds to me as if you want to keep this pup, but did next to no preparation and are now on a very steep learning curve.
Unless you are prepared to get learning quicky, the kindest thing would be to return to the breeder. Starting a new job isnt ideal.

It sure is hard for at least the first year, and it can be 2 or even 3 years before they really shape up into that dog of your dreams. Only you can know if you can stick at this long term.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I think some of your responses have been harsh too. It is totally normal IME to feel the way you do. I longed & craved for my youngest dog, he was the product of 2 years of thorough research. Yet when he came home it was not how I imagined. I felt tearful, depressed, guilty & found myself going through the motions rather than getting any real joy from doing them. I used to long for bedtime so I could have my 'me time'. I persevered through & of course wouldn't change a thing 5 years on. But point being, it is hard & these emotions you're feeling happen to the best of us no matter how dog experienced you are!

I echo @ShibaPup's recommendation to watch Kikopup. Lots of useful & helpful advice there.

Plus I would continue regarding the crate training as it sounds like you had a breakthrough with her sleeping beside you in it last night. Crate training will be a blessing for you in many ways, especially when you return to work and done correctly, most dogs end up loving their little dens 

Do not write her off just yet, or label her with issues. She's just a baby, a very young one, and it's perfectly normal she will whine & be clingy. In fact, that clinginess is what makes early recall training so beneficial!  Just take a deep breath, relax, and enjoy her & the little moments of improvements as each day goes on and you all settle into a routine.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Having a puppy is never what we think. The majority of us go through “what have I done!” “ I can’t do this”. However, patient persistence pays off. Poor little soul is probably picking up your anxiety. You need to remain calm. Look at things from pup’s point of view and break everything down into tiny steps. 
I have to add that when my pup was 9 months old he had a stroke and was completely paralysed. It was his will to be with me wherever I went that pulled him through. Don’t be too quick to pass judgement. Her need to be with you isn’t the end of the world. Practice gradually moving away from her. Just a step and praise her, then another. Small acorns etc.
It sounds to me as though you expect too much and aren’t prepare to put in the time or work to get it. If that’s the case, then she will be much better going back to the breeder.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Pickle is my 6th family dog over my lifetime and 3rd in my own home (yeah I'm old) yet I can remember feeling like this with both her and Dodgem my dog before her. I have loved and do love my dogs very, very much it's normal to feel like this especially as you are now very seriously sleep deprived. A puppy is worse than a baby as I remember because at least babies don't follow you around in the beginning. At least puppies mature faster.

People are all sympathetic with a baby and exhaustion, I wish they would be kinder with new puppy owners.

Some responses are very harsh, I guess they have forgotten or never had a puppy, it's normal to feel very overwhelmed, it gets better when they can go out a bit more. 
Kikopup is great advice, do crate train and take things slowly remember you have a baby who is sad scared and you are their only comfort x


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## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

I have always said having a new puppy is on a par with having a human baby it's a lot of work in the beginning but a few months down the line when you are in a routine you forget how hard it was at the start


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## margy (Dec 9, 2018)

Lot's of good advice been given, only you can decide if you have the dedication to carry on, yes it is hard work but eventually you will end up with a loving companion and friend for life. Saying that I've had 4 dogs as a grown up 3 were from puppies ,1 my Suzie was 3 when I got her and now I wouldn't get another puppy. Grown up dogs are much less work! Good luck with whatever you decide


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

Bless her she is frightened. Still, if you feel it is affecting you then you must send her back asap. Suppose it's much like having a baby, unfortunately you can't send them back.


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

I have to admit I don't like young puppies, I prefer them at three months or older when then can go out and have more control if their vowels. 

There's not a pup I hated getting, but a few weeks down the line I've forgotten the bad times and enjoy the new addition to my family


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

kirksandallchins said:


> I have to admit I don't like young puppies, I prefer them at three months or older when then can go out and have more control if their vowels.
> 
> There's not a pup I hated getting, but a few weeks down the line I've forgotten the bad times and enjoy the new addition to my family


Puppies should not be sold younger than 12 weeks.

I wonder if your puppy was not too young to be separated from the mum and the siblings?

Yes, puppies are tough call.

I got older rescue puppy, about 9 months and came to this forum a bit worried, as poor Scrip had many issues and my children were young...
Good folks here like @rona , @JANICE199 and some I cannot mention took pity on us and offered sensible advice or just sympathy.
It is now going on 10 years and we all love our (nearly) perfect dog...

Only worry now is his declining health....

It is a bumpy ride, yes, just like being a parent.

But if it is not for you please return her soon.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Puppies should not be sold younger than 12 weeks.


8 weeks in the UK


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2019)

We got our pup when she was 10 1/2 weeks and the first week and first month were the hardest for us - we all needed to adjust and settle into a new routine (including our pup). 

Even though training her has been a breeze from the start and I loved her from the second I saw her, I had puppy blues bad in the first week. Not meaning that I hated her, but felt sleep deprived and overwhelmed, wondering if we could really look after and train this little baby properly. I never considered returning her (not seriously anyway) and sticking at it, was the best decision.

Now she is 6months and I miss her like crazy when I'm at work and can't wait to go home at lunch time for cuddles.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

tabelmabel said:


> 8 weeks in the UK


Too young.
But I had unwanted puppy that was just 5 weeks old!
It was obviously demanding.

I believe that ideally you get the puppy after two rounds of vacs , well socialised and much stronger at 12 weeks.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

tabelmabel said:


> 8 weeks in the UK


I think the new thinking, amongst good breeders, is 12-ish for toy breeds
Bybs will get rid as soon as possible, as we all know puppies =eating and pooping machines


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> I think the new thinking, amongst good breeders, is 12-ish for toy breeds


Ah - didn't realise it was different for toy breeds, thanks! It must be very difficult, though, even for the very best breeders to fit in all the necessary socialisation required with a large litter of pups by 12 weeks? I just cant imagine how they could manage it!


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

tabelmabel said:


> Ah - didn't realise it was different for toy breeds, thanks! It must be very difficult, though, even for the very best breeders to fit in all the necessary socialisation required with a large litter of pups by 12 weeks? I just cant imagine how they could manage it!


Toy breeds tend to have small litters hence why you would really be requesting to go on a waiting list rather than a puppy whilst making contact per se...or you will be advised it will be a waiting list due to small litters

The problem with toy breeds is they don't mature as quickly as their counterparts, so physically and mentally per se...so their socialisation critical stage would therefore be slightly later too. They wouldn't be as ready to absorb all the information in the standard critical period. I take it, it's a bit like premature babies. Development is behind, so key milestones can be missed but do develop then everything catches up when the children are of school age. In toy breeds they catch up so to speak at 6 months old then zoom on to be classed as mature at 8 months old.

Breeders however of toy breeds do tend to start socialisation fairly early and carry on. Especially as unless talking puppy farms a toy breed litter is more likely to be brought up in a family home


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Puppies should not be sold younger than 12 weeks.


In your opinion?

I let my pups go at 8 weeks. By then, Mum wanted nothing much to do with them and they were becoming competitive with their siblings.

I assume you've never bred a litter?

To keep pups until three months of age would be horribly counter productive, in my opinion, and of no benefit whatsoever.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I have just had a quick google search @lullabydream and can't find anything about toy breeds having a later developmental window for socialisation that any other breed. I did come across an article in whole dog journal about 'tiny dogs' saying they still need to be meeting 100 people by 14 wks (but it stated the window for all breeds closes very fast after that)
The article was old, though, from 2009. Im not disputing what you're saying, but if you can link in some research, this is an area i am always interested in. Cheers


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Rafa said:


> In your opinion?
> 
> I let my pups go at 8 weeks. By then, Mum wanted nothing much to do with them and they were becoming competitive with their siblings.
> 
> ...


Can imagine those who wrote the above never bred a litter of puppies.

More and more breeders and vets think puppies and kittens should spend 12 weeks with mother and siblings, plus have vaccines done before they go.
Not just my opinion. Times are changing.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, of course. Some obscure television programme that you can't even really recall must eclipse the experience and knowledge of conscientious breeders.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

There was something on chihuahuas somewhere...I can't remember where exactly but it makes sense...

I thought all dogs were dogs, big small it didn't matter. I read puppy books and it still states the same but then when I looked into chihuahuas and saw about their development. It made a lot of sense...

Although I would be very choosey about breeders anyway, and I think when look at toy breeds if they didn't discuss any thing about socialisation then i would be extremely weary...and not just a trip in a car like others do 

I do agree that chihuahuas shouldn't leave their breeders till 12 weeks as stated by the breed club. They are far behind developmentally than other dogs that age.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Rafa said:


> Well, of course. Some obscure television programme that you can't even really recall must eclipse the experience and knowledge of conscientious breeders.


Please read my post?
American Kennel Club obscure???

Tell me you never heard of it...


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

lullabydream said:


> There was something on chihuahuas somewhere...I can't remember where exactly but it makes sense...
> 
> I thought all dogs were dogs, big small it didn't matter. I read puppy books and it still states the same but then when I looked into chihuahuas and saw about their development. It made a lot of sense...
> 
> ...


I did find this
https://www.thehonestkitchen.com/blog/when-should-puppies-go-to-their-new-home/ 
And quite a few more, just by typing 
Keeping chihuahua puppies until 12 weeks
Into google
I must admit that most, if not all the examples were from . com sites rather than .UK, so I'm guessing that they're US ones

@Rafa , I don't, for one minute, anyone, least of all me (whose certainly never bred a litter, nor intends to) was inferring that any respected member and/or breeder was doing anything wrong at all. I rely on breeders to answer my inane questions and you are all so patient and polite in sharing your expertise

Maybe 12 weeks IS to late, as is your experience, but maybe times are changing and, like it used to be OK for kittens to be rehomed at 8 weeks, some breeders of toy breeds have found that, that age, is just too early for them

But then again, should we believe anything on the internet that we haven't touched smelt tasted or seen ourselves
You, and others, have done that
I haven't


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

cheekyscrip said:


> Please read my post?
> American Kennel Club obscure???
> Tell me you never heard of it...


As you only posted one small paragraph from the article on the AKC site, I will just post the rest of the article here where the Vet and Behaviourist Sally Foote explains the reasoning behind homing at 8 week.

_" A primary factor in choosing when to send a puppy to a new home is the socialization period, according to Foote. The socialization period in puppies typically lasts from 6-to-12 weeks of age. During this time, puppies are learning the norms of the world around them.

Foote said that it is best for puppies to enter their new homes as soon as possible during this age to give them the best chance at adapting to their new environment. The first behavioral fear period in puppies also occurs during this time at around 7-8 weeks, and sending a puppy home during this time helps it to build resiliency to new experiences, Foote said.

That exposure to new things and individual attention are very important if breeders choose to keep puppies past the age of 8 weeks, Foote said. Puppies that stay in the comfort of the litter during their fear period may miss out on the chance to learn to cope with new experiences, as well as they potentially could.

A puppy that is too sheltered during this time could become anxious or fearful around new things and take longer to adapt to new situations. Another potential concern when keeping litters together for too long is the individuality of each puppy. "Those puppies are not accommodated for their own individual needs," Foote said.

If litters are only worked with as a group, one or two puppies are bound to miss out. A shy puppy in a litter of boisterous puppies may be forced into situations it's uncomfortable with too soon, or a boisterous puppy in a group of quieter ones may not get the level of stimulation it needs. It's important that breeders who keep their puppies through this period take the time to avoid potential behavioral complications to raise confident young dogs, Foote said._



lullabydream said:


> The problem with toy breeds is they don't mature as quickly as their counterparts, so physically and mentally per se...so their socialisation critical stage would therefore be slightly later too.


Actually small breeds grow and mature* faster* than large breeds. At six months of age many small breeds have done much of their growing and often are ready to come into season. My Cavaliers mature months ahead of my Labradors both physically and mentally. The main reason that some breeders of small breeds keep their puppies longer is the fragility of some of these breeds now we have bred them so small and slight. And yes, an 8 week old small breed can seem very fragile. But mentally their needs are every bit the same as their large breed counterparts.

I have neither read nor heard anything that would persuade me to think that keeping a puppy to 12 weeks of age is in that puppies best interest. In my experience the thinking of 'professional breeders' is individualistic on the subject with some keeping their smaller breeds past 8 weeks and some some homing them at around 8 weeks. Most large breed breeders still home at 8 weeks. Most puppies at 8 weeks are climbing the walls in anticipation of new experiences and they need to start bonding to their new families.

Support from a good breeder is important though and in regard to the topic of this thread, taking on a puppy with no understanding as to how to help them settle into their new home during those first few days and nights is very sad. Before any of my puppies go home, their new owners (who meet the puppies from 3 weeks of age anyway) have a complete plan of how to work with their puppy during those early days - and it doesn't include leaving the puppy in the bathroom on the first night with a radio and fairy lights.

J


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

OP if you really don't feel that you will be able to cope with this puppy then the most sensible thing to do is to return her to the breeder. HOWEVER, it does sound to me like you are having a fairly typical puppy blues wobble, which many people have. As you already suffer from anxiety and depression a big change in your life like this can trigger it and the feelings can become overwhelming. I too have experienced it, but with the right help and measures put in place you can come out the other side with a fabulous four-legged friend.

Starting a new job so soon after getting a new pup is not ideal, but as long as you have made the necessary arrangements for pup then there is no reason why she should suffer. What you do need to bear in mind though is that because you will be gone for longer hours you are likely to be more tired and tired hooman vs energetic pup is a recipe for tears and feeling overwhelmed. So you may find it gets worse before it gets better.

You have received some great advice on here already. I just wanted to point out that the bathroom probably isn't the best place to leave your pup. Reason being that most people don't tend to spend much time in the bathroom with their pups (although my pets think that the trip to the bathroom is a social occasion ) so being left in a less familiar room that the pup only goes in to be left will not help with her feelings of loneliness. Crate training is a great idea because you can put the crate in a familiar room and know that damage will be kept to a minimum. Having the crate in your bedroom at night for now (as I saw you have started doing) will also help her settle and give you a better chance of getting some sleep. 

Ultimately only you know you and your situation and whether you will be able to cope with this. I waited for 20 years before getting my puppy, I had done a tonne of research, had lots of dog experience and couldn't have been more prepared in a practical sense for her arrival, but my goodness did I get a shock when we first had her. I was tired all the time, fed up of not being able to go out the room without her crying, fed up of being savaged and felt like I was utterly failing as a puppy owner. I could have written a post similar to yours and perhaps I would have also received some harsh responses, but I'm so glad that I didn't as once I got through the initial difficulties I ended up with the best dog I could have ever wished for, who has helped me no end with my anxiety and made my life way better. 

Good luck whatever you decide to do. Don't make any quick decisions. Think it through and hopefully you do whatever is right for you and the pup.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Actually small breeds grow and mature* faster* than large breeds. At six months of age many small breeds have done much of their growing and often are ready to come into season.


See this is what I thought when I first looked into chihuahuas about 5 years ago. It never made sense to me either.

The breed club was saying 12 weeks.

Then speaking to Cleo's breeder; as initially I was getting a puppy and still would have been able to have one. She explained that they are a lot slower to develop when puppies both physically and mentally. You try weaning at 3 weeks, but usually it's later. Doesn't effect the bitch later per se as the puppies teeth aren't through as quickly as others...

Then they then mature really quickly...it's really odd.

I wouldn't have believed it, and I was explained and showed videos of my breeders puppies from follow on litters.

It was only when I got Harley home at 9 weeks that I felt lack of teeth and you can see and feel where her baby teeth come through.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> Too young.
> But I had unwanted puppy that was just 5 weeks old!
> It was obviously demanding.
> 
> I believe that ideally you get the puppy after two rounds of vacs , well socialised and much stronger at 12 weeks.


I am not going to discuss toy breeds as I do not know about them but I would never buy a puppy from a breeder who insisted on keeping them till 12 weeks. I have had 2 slightly older pups and both were nervous wrecks initially due to poor socialisation. One was a pup that had been run on by the breeder to 4 months and the other one was a neglected pup that was going to be put to sleep. I have had most of my pups at 7 to 8 weeks and ended up with well socialised and well rounded dogs. One of my current ones was 10 weeks at my request as I could not get her any earlier but the breeder had her in the house, she was the last pup left and treated as an individual, lead trained and played with and had the best start possible. I cant think of anything worse than getting a 12 week pup from an average or poor breeder or one that is short of time. You are going to end up with a pack animal that cant be left on its own and has no idea about normal life.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I cant think of anything worse than getting a 12 week pup from an average or poor breeder or one that is short of time. You are going to end up with a pack animal that cant be left on its own and has no idea about normal life.


This was my thing when I was researching a few years back...many breeders said because the chihuahua breed club states puppies should leave at 12 weeks. Not what they would do with the puppies till then, not explain why per se..such as we take the puppies out prior to 8 weeks. Some seemed to think car rides were the thing to do which might be one thing to tick off but bundling a few puppies in a crate say in a boot, back seat is hardly up their with great socialisation.

Ironically it was the breeders who health test that could explain why they did that, and what socialisation type schedule they followed and why toy breeds were left to go to New homes at 12 weeks I had respect for.

I don't get why anyone would follow a breed club protocol of any type without questioning or knowing the answer why. If being the answer well they are tiny, that's ludacris..they are a tiny breed. You are going to get variations bigger and smaller than standard.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

lullabydream said:


> . She explained that they are a lot slower to develop when puppies both physically and mentally. You try weaning at 3 weeks, but usually it's later. Doesn't effect the bitch later per se as the puppies teeth aren't through as quickly as others...
> .


I do know that Chihuahua's have become developmentally delayed and I have no idea why - I suspect it is something to do with breeding them smaller and slighter. I don't know if any other small breeds suffer from this though ...

J


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blitz said:


> I cant think of anything worse than getting a 12 week pup from an average or poor breeder or one that is short of time. You are going to end up with a pack animal that cant be left on its own and has no idea about normal life.


This would be my worry as well. Keeping a pup for 12 weeks with no specific plan for socialization and actually implementing that plan would worry me. I'd rather get the pup at 8 or even 6 weeks so that I can make sure the puppy is getting exposure to all the things that will help make him/her a well-rounded, relaxed, happy dog. 
And it's not just things like meeting other people and animals, it's exposure to different surfaces to walk on, different smells, sounds, different environments.

A friend of mine just had a litter and the lengths she goes to in order to give those puppies different experiences before they leave her is admirable. And her dogs go on to do exceptionally well in their new homes of course.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

The first litter I bred was from a sheltie bitch. A local breeder came with someone to advise them on a puppy. Over the phone she had said they would want the pup at 6 weeks which I was not happy with. Once she had met me and seen the bitch and pups she said she advised the pup staying with me till 8 weeks and had only said 6 weeks as she was not sure how I would be rearing them.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I totally agree that if breeders leave puppies till 12 weeks then should provide appropriate socialization and training, not just let run riot.
I know some breeders who actually involve in it the father of the litter.
But obviously they have grounds were puppies can explore under their parents supervision and training.
I know that three months old can learn very much.


If a breeder cannot then after first round of vacs is acceptable.

I took 5 weeks old puppy English setter/ German pointer cross from accidental litter as the owners and the mum could not cope with eight puppies.

I bottle fed the puppies from their second day as mum was not coping well and the tiny ones had little chance of surviving otherwise.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

cheekyscrip said:


> But obviously they have grounds were puppies can explore under their parents supervision and training.


But proper, effective socialization is about so much more than letting puppies explore. There has to be a deliberate plan in place, with safe places for the puppies to go and experience things in a positive way. Like trips to the vet, if the breeder is rural, a ride in the car to a place where the puppies can see, hear, and smell traffic for example. I know a few breeders who rent out my trainer's building and have a 'puppy party' where the litter can meet different people in a controlled setting. 
This all takes a ton of time, planning, resources, connections... I don't forsee many breeders putting in that sort of effort (they should, but they don't) so I would rather see a puppy in their new home at 8 weeks than 12 weeks with a whole month of socialization lost.

I will defer to more knowledgeable folks for toy breeds, but for every other dog, there is absolutely no need to stay with the breeder until 12 weeks and it could very likely be detrimental to that pup's socialization.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

A new owner, who has one pup to socialise, is in a far better position to do so than the Breeder.

How could a Breeder properly socialise a litter of, say, twelve Golden Retriever pups?

I have no experience of Toy Breeds, but my Terrier pups, by eight weeks old, were beginning to be well and truly sick of each other and the 'playfighting' would be becoming a little too intense. They were well and truly ready to go onto their new homes by then and have the benefit of one on one attention from their new owner.


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## Lola55 (Jun 27, 2019)

I'm sorry you're feeling this way but please just take a breath for a minute. Its very normal to feel this way- I also felt the same way after having my first child lol 
Please try to look at it from the pup's point of view, she's so, so wee. She's tiny, she misses her mum and her brothers and sisters and you are her only comfort. She doesn't understand why you are staying away from her at night etc.. she's not doing it to be annoying, she simply cannot understand what's going on. 
A few things- I really recommend crate training at first, keep it in your room but crate her at night. Crating allows dogs to feel safe and that they have their own space. Get a pheromone plug in - they are widely available and they emit the same calming pheromones that pup's mothers emit- its calming to them. Put an old t shirt in her crate that smells of you. Use kongs to keep her occupied when you are out. When you go out, DO NOT make a big fuss of her. Ignore her for a couple of minutes then leave. Do this gradually in small increments to start with and build up over time. When you return, DONT make a fuss of her. Completely ignore her until she is calm- THEN give her attention. She will learn that she gets attention from being calm. Take her to puppy training classes- they aren't that expensive and they're great for training techniques. tips etc.
Give your little girl a chance. She needs guidance and you are the only person who can help her. You can do this. Stay strong!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I do know that Chihuahua's have become developmentally delayed and I have no idea why - I suspect it is something to do with breeding them smaller and slighter. I don't know if any other small breeds suffer from this though ...
> 
> J


I guess, and it is a guess, cos my Chi's were nearly double the size of those around nowadays, its along the same lines as preemie babies
They may look the same as a normally baby. But their brain and organs aren't as developed, but when they start catching up, they almost always, at least temporarily, surpass their full term peers
Smaller brains take longer to develop, plus Chi's have the added disadvantage of waiting for their heads to grow too, whilst a lab(for instance) has that room already there

Obviously, I reserve the right to be talking a load of cods


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> I guess, and it is a guess, cos my Chi's were nearly double the size of those around nowadays, its along the same lines as preemie babies
> They may look the same as a normally baby. But their brain and organs aren't as developed, but when they start catching up, they almost always, at least temporarily, surpass their full term peers
> Smaller brains take longer to develop, plus Chi's have the added disadvantage of waiting for their heads to grow too, whilst a lab(for instance) has that room already there
> 
> Obviously, I reserve the right to be talking a load of cods


That's the only way I could relate to it too, in some ways too.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

The idea of a breeder keeping and socialising a litter of maybe ten large breed puppies up to twelve weeks  ludicrous

OP - our puppy is now approaching 18 months and I absolutely identify with what you have written. Feeling overwhelmed by a puppy is completely normal. I remember summer last year when she was five months old sitting down at the kitchen table crying over how difficult she was and having a serious chat with my girlfriend about whether another family could give her a better life. We both work full time and were finding it difficult to cope with how demanding she was. But we stuck with it and as someone else has suggested, took each day as a tiny step forwards, focusing on the good things. Honestly, it does get so much better, over time.

In summary, dogs are much much much better than puppies.


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