# Puppy, teeth and growling - Aggression?



## beansy (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi,

Ruby is 14 weeks old now, and i'm wanting some advice so I can nip things in the bud if needs be.

She mainly gets grumpy when she's tired, she may be asleep and I need to move her, and she will growl as I pick her up. She's tiny so it's quicker for me to pick her up gently and put her where I want her, should I be waking her up and making her move her butt herself instead?

Also, when she gets excited and playing she nips and chases ankles socks etc, which I fully expect from a playing pup, but on the odd occasion this can turn into biting hard on the hands, and if I try and calm her down by laying her on her side etc, you can see her 'flip' mentally and she will yelp and gurgle and go mad, with gnashing of tiny teeth etc. I put this down to having a tantrum, but could it be a habit forming? 

I don't want to end up with a bad temptered little dog because I missed something early on.

This will last only a few seconds but I need to know if i'm doing the right thing, by gently holding her till she submits?

The second I let go she's up and wagging tail and wanting to play again like nothing has happened.

Thanks for any advice, also, she is not food aggressive at all.


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## angel 22 (Apr 13, 2008)

hi has ruby got her own bed if not get a crate and make her a cosy den that way there will be no need to move her at all im grumpy too if im woken up lol 

she sounds like a normal puppy i wouldnt personally push her over when she bites you they dont really learn much from it invest in a water pistol this worked a treat for my friends gsd as she hated water as a pup so this was enough punishment and soon stopped her training discs are also good if you find she likes the water too much good luck


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## jilly40 (Oct 22, 2008)

our bundle of trouble is 12 or 14 weeks old.we use a crate with just a bed in it.if she gets 2 nippy or chases the cat n wont take no 4 an answer i have a spray bottle with water in.all i have 2 do is shake it now after having had a few squirts n she stops imd.are you letting her on the sofa? if so id leave her on the floor.nina is a mind of info she has given me advice in the past also tashi.hope that helps xx


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## beansy (Nov 23, 2008)

Yes she has her own bed, she sleeps through the night without a problem and can be left during the day, I put her bed in the hall at these times so there are no loose wires to chew on.

I have been having her on the sofa, she's too small to jump up on her own, and she's learnt to jump up and stand on the floor in front of where i'm sat and I pick her up to have on the sofa with me, most times she is fine and just plays and then falls asleep there in the evening (this is when I need to move her to the hall when I go to bed).

But sometimes she just gets a bit carried away and thinks she's in charge.

I've always had bigger dogs before and you can use your physical size with them to help them realise your in charge, but Ruby seems to have no idea regarding size :devil:

It's nothing more than I expected, and because she's so good and cute most of the time she gets lots of attention, then I get alot of :dita: and rrr: hahaha.


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

Sofa is a no no let the pup sleep near your feet. When they are asleep and you want to move them call their name and say bed. Whilst you go over and pat the bed this should help them know their place. I taught mine the sofa/chair was mine and when I sit on it it's my bed and I don't want to be disturbed. It takes time but it's worth it. good luck.


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## beansy (Nov 23, 2008)

It's hard isn't it, because I want her on the sofa when I want to give her cuddles, but without the dominance.

She also gets very wound up if the cats are on the sofa with me and she is not, because they can just jump up and get my attention and cuddles, this drives her mad, but i've just been ignoring her when she behaves like this.

Would it be acceptable to pick her up and have her on the sofa with me when I want, but ignore her when she is trying to get my attention to pick her up?

Then when she is getting comfy to snooze I can put her down on the floor and say bed *point*?


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2008)

It sounds like you are giving her mixed signals which is going to be confusing for her been such a young puppy.Sometimes it's ok,other times it's not so you either need to allow it all the time or not at all.Consistancy is the key with young pups 

If she's growling at you when been woken so you can move her,don't do it,call her to where you want her and praise reward her.

As for the biting this is a good link The Bite Stops Here


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## jilly40 (Oct 22, 2008)

she is small n cute n she knows it lol ! i have a stair gate on the stairs its a no go as is the sofa.our older dog is only aloud on the odd time if invited.the pup is not nor will she be till i am confident she knows its mine!!! its all fun n games isnt it x


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

beansy said:


> Hi,
> 
> Ruby is 14 weeks old now, and i'm wanting some advice so I can nip things in the bud if needs be.
> 
> ...


Hi Hunny,
This is how Sasha was when she was a pup - and because we didn't notice it she turnt nasty.
Luckily you have noticed it, by lying her on her side with your hands resting on her neck you will get her to submit...she must only move when you let her, if she trys to move before stop her! Aggresion of any sort needs to be stopped as you have picked up on there is a difference between puppy playing and aggresion and it can turn from one to the other in seconds.

With regards to moving her...wake her and get her to move herself, she'll soon go back to sleep but she may feel under threat if you move.

In Cesar's famous words...you need to let her you know you are the pack leader... what is the situation with her coming on the sofa/beds/in the lounge etc...


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

jilly40 said:


> she is small n cute n she knows it lol ! i have a stair gate on the stairs its a no go as is the sofa.our older dog is only aloud on the odd time if invited.the pup is not nor will she be till i am confident she knows its mine!!! its all fun n games isnt it x


Gr8 advice Jilly this is what i was edging towards. I did a DT and didnt read the whole thread before posting. Lol


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

beansy said:


> Yes she has her own bed, she sleeps through the night without a problem and can be left during the day, I put her bed in the hall at these times so there are no loose wires to chew on.
> 
> I have been having her on the sofa, she's too small to jump up on her own, and she's learnt to jump up and stand on the floor in front of where i'm sat and I pick her up to have on the sofa with me, most times she is fine and just plays and then falls asleep there in the evening (this is when I need to move her to the hall when I go to bed).
> 
> ...


Stick her infront of a mirror that will give her an idea how tiny she is, lol!
Sorry sarcasm...
She does look very cute it is hard to resist having her on the sofa...i hope your here to give me moral support when i get riley end of Feb...lol!
What breed is she?


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## fosse (Dec 10, 2008)

Not even Cesar Millan makes 14 week old puppies submit. Using dominance theories on young puppies is dangerous in my opinion. Dogs are social animals and not everything is about pack structure.

I am not surprised to see that roling her onto her side and pinning her down is aggrovating the problem, puppies especially do not understand this and will feel the need to defend themselves, by continuing to pin her down you are just going to make her fearful of you and encourage fear aggression. 

Dominance aggression is extremely rare and is almost always a result of over use of pack theory techniques, the aggression you are seeing is more than likely fear aggression brought on by the mixed signals you are giving her, one minute you want to cuddle on the sofa, the next your pinning her down.

Consistency is the key, everything should be done through positive reinforcement, encourage her to her bed with treats instead of picking her up and moving her, imagine how you would feel if someone came and picked you up when you were sleeping.


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

fosse said:


> Not even Cesar Millan makes 14 week old puppies submit. Using dominance theories on young puppies is dangerous in my opinion. Dogs are social animals and not everything is about pack structure.
> 
> I am not surprised to see that roling her onto her side and pinning her down is aggrovating the problem, puppies especially do not understand this and will feel the need to defend themselves, by continuing to pin her down you are just going to make her fearful of you and encourage fear aggression.
> 
> ...


I am afraid although your advise especially the last paragraph is very good, i still believe that using some of these theory's early on, maybe not to the extreme that Cesar sometimes do is imprortant otherwise how will they learn to respect you and understand these methods? In a pack of dogs this is how they would deal with it, we the humans make them 'puppy's and give them names etc in mother nature this is the only way one dog can communicate to another, and every dog IMO will recognise this.
I may be wrong, but seems to worked on all our dogs except Sasha.
I am not by any means saying make your dog scared of you just let them realise that you are the boss.


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## angel 22 (Apr 13, 2008)

another great post fosse :thumbup1:


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2008)

Katie&Riley said:


> I am afraid although your advise especially the last paragraph is very good, i still believe that using some of these theory's early on, maybe not to the extreme that Cesar sometimes do is imprortant otherwise how will they learn to respect you and understand these methods? In a pack of dogs this is how they would deal with it, we the humans make them 'puppy's and give them names etc in mother nature this is the only way one dog can communicate to another, and every dog IMO will recognise this.
> I may be wrong, but seems to worked on all our dogs except Sasha.
> I am not by any means saying make your dog scared of you just let them realise that you are the boss.


Not sure I agree with this,

Have a read of this link,
Dominance Theory in the Domestic Dog: Exploring a Popular and Controversial Concept in Canis Familiaris

"Dominant" Behaviors

Many dog behaviors are described as dominant, such as "pinning" a dog. In this situation the dog on top is seen as dominant and as such will always get the first chance at any valued resource. There are a couple of flaws in this scenario:

1. The dog on top, in almost every documented case, did not "pin" the dog on the bottom; the dog underneath volunteered to be there.
2. This same dog that is on top now may next be on the bottom (as seen in the photos of the two dogs), so many people call this a "role reversal" meaning that the dominant dog switched with the submissive dog for a health reason or because they felt like it.

Wait a minute, how can this theory describe something that can be changed by a dog's whim? Sounds like a pretty weak theory.

Use of Dominance Based Training Techniques and the Results

This behavior of pinning another dog has inspired many very dangerous corrections from humans. One such is the "Alpha Roll" whereby the human rolls the dog on his back and holds him there until he submits. See "Biscuits Not Rolls" in The Whole Dog Journal. This procedure is both damaging to your relationship with the dog and to his self-confidence. It very often ends up with the dog either completely shutting down or attacking someone.

All behaviors can be explained without using dominance theory and make much more sense. Keep in mind that there have only been two unpublished research papers on dominance in dogs and both said the same thing, basically being: we cannot find evidence to support this theory.


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Not sure I agree with this,
> 
> Have a read of this link,
> Dominance Theory in the Domestic Dog: Exploring a Popular and Controversial Concept in Canis Familiaris
> ...


I'm not saying I disagree with your points but the quotes you give are from a person who has been training for only 6 years, not long is it? 
Also the pictures that are shown are of dogs playing which is completely different from an aggressive dominant interaction between dogs


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*As most of you know, i'm agreat fan of Cesar Milan,and the pack theory works for him...as for letting your pup onto the sofa, my own oppion is this.Allow it, if and when YOU choose not the puppy.My 2 are just a year old and they both know they can come onto the sofa if I want them to,and when i wont them to get off thats what they do..start as you meen to go on.*


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I don't know anything about pack dominance so can't comment on that.
However my 2 get on the sofa with me.
When they were to small to jump up themselves I only lifted them up only if they sat nicely if they tried to jump up or barked or growled showing their teeth I ignored them.
Now if they are on the sofa I move them if they are in the way, If they are asleep I always wake them first.
One of the reasons I got small dogs is because I wanted to cuddle them on the sofa - but they are still treated like dogs and have to follow my instructions. lol


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2008)

rona said:


> I'm not saying I disagree with your points but the quotes you give are from a person who has been training for only 6 years, not long is it?
> Also the pictures that are shown are of dogs playing which is completely different from an aggressive dominant interaction between dogs


I agree 
This article I think makes for better reading,
Dominance Theory

I don't believe in the dominance theory and what the OP has described is perfectly normal puppy behaviour.They will push the boundries and see how far they can go.


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## beansy (Nov 23, 2008)

Oooh so much great information, thankyou so much for your input and opinions, i've had to open a new window so I can reply to different bits...

*Mixed signals with the sofa*: Most of the time I let her up on the sofa, now and then I don't because I know from the way she is behaving that she only wants to get up to have a go at the cat, or she is in her 'mad 10 minutes' state and needs to calm down before being allowed to come up.

Ideally with training I want her to know the sofa is mine, and she can come up when I say so. I've started this today with ignoring her, and after 5 minutes she sloped off to her own bed and fell asleep.

*Submission and laying on her side*: This seems to have invoked the most split of opinion. I would like to point out I think i've had to do it 3 times so far, gently, and in order to calm her down and stop her snapping like a little crocodile! - I have found it infuriates her more for a little while then all goes back to play again once calmed down.

This was why I was asking for others opinions as I don't wish to make things worse obviously. I think I shall try just putting her on the floor and ignoring her behaviour instead, rewarding her good behaviouru , see how that goes.

The main thing I can see that I was doing incoreectly was picking her up at bedtime. I thought I was helping, like you would a baby, but obviously not 

I am going to try waking her up when I want her moved instead from now on, i'll let you know how we get on.

I haven't done any specific training with her, as she's only been here 2 weeks, I thought i'd let her settle in first, now at 14 weeks old, do you think she is ready for some 'proper' training? she has had none so far as I can tell.

Again thanks for your input, I will read up on the links etc this evening when I have 5 minutes to myself.


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

Yes it's never too early to start training start with sit then see how you go. You could also get a big cushion that the pup knows is hers then when she sits on it you could reward so if and when you want her on the sofa you will only have to move the cushion and pat it. On the floor or sofa.


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## fosse (Dec 10, 2008)

The mark of a true leader is to control without force.


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I agree
> This article I think makes for better reading,
> Dominance Theory
> 
> I don't believe in the dominance theory and what the OP has described is perfectly normal puppy behaviour.They will push the boundries and see how far they can go.


I prefer this one and would recommend this for anyone who is training their first pup

Dog Behavior | Dog Star Daily


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## beansy (Nov 23, 2008)

Isn't it silly how changing the simplest of things can make such a difference?

I mean, I was only worrying, nothing drastic had happened, I was just trying to preempt any issues.

Up to yesterday I had left Rubys bed in the hall, at the bottom of the stairs, she had been on the sofa as and when she liked pretty much up till then.

I brought her bed in the living room yesterday and have ignored her wanting to get on the sofa, unless i've wanted her to, she's whined a bit at first, but she has spent most of her time in her bed, happy and content with her teddies.

She fell asleep in there yesterday evening so I just picked up her bed and move it into the hall, no growling.

When I do allow her on the sofa, usually she tries to dive over me to where my feet are (imagine i'm curled up on sofa) so she can chew on my slippers and get excited (you can see where the nipping and hyper starts...) - so when I've let her up i've been making her stay on my right-hand side, she doesn't like this as it's boring and usually gets down once she's realised she can't attack my feet.

So thats eliminated the excitement and biting there.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2008)

That's what's good at PF, it just makes you think from a different angle sometimes. Little changes can make huge improvements. Well done


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## beansy (Nov 23, 2008)

My new copy of Chihuahua for Dummies has just fallen through the letterbox, so I might be doing some old fashioned reading today lol.


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## Amyk (Dec 23, 2008)

if her biting gets to much then flip her over on her back and hold her there for a while untill she calms down, this can help with dominance issues and to be honest that what it sound like you have, this is common in terrier breeds. she is likely to stuggle against you when you hold her on her back but she will soon work out who the boss and that there are consquenses when she goes to fair, you could aways touch her firmly on the chest (not to hurt her) but this will snap her out of what she is doing. in dog world this is classed as a bite which is what the mother and anyother dog would do if the pup was pushing it, i recommend watching the dog whisperer on sky3 i think. it explains alot, hope this helps


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## bordercollieboy (Dec 27, 2008)

Amyk said:


> if her biting gets to much then flip her over on her back and hold her there for a while untill she calms down, this can help with dominance issues and to be honest that what it sound like you have, this is common in terrier breeds. she is likely to stuggle against you when you hold her on her back but she will soon work out who the boss and that there are consquenses when she goes to fair, you could aways touch her firmly on the chest (not to hurt her) but this will snap her out of what she is doing. in dog world this is classed as a bite which is what the mother and anyother dog would do if the pup was pushing it, i recommend watching the dog whisperer on sky3 i think. it explains alot, hope this helps


I've never seen a mother bite/nip her puppies, have you?

The issue is not dominance, it is simply puppy biting, the majority of puppies do it, it's how puppies learn and the majority of owners resolve it without bullying their puppies. :crazy:


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## beansy (Nov 23, 2008)

She is getting better, alot of it is just excitement, as she is getting older she still mouths a little but has much better control over her tiny fangs!


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