# Why do people moan about kitten prices, but are happy to spend double/triple on a dog



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I dont understand, do us cat breeders not put in the same amount, if not more of a effort? We vacs our kittens, dog breeders dont have to, we keep them for 13weeks + and dog breeders can let theirs go at 6/7/8weeks, we all health test (hopefully) and work just as hard to raise our kittens, yet people moan about kitten prices but are happy to pay more for a pup?

I just had a email from someone who said 'I really dont want to spend loads on a kitten, will you take £200 off the price as other people are selling them cheaper with no papers and they can go earlier etc'

When I email back my list of things we do for our kittens & our costs (I know I shouldnt bother but it does get to me people think you earn millions when we wont break even on our 3 litters) 

And they said 'we were happy to pay £750 for a golden retriever pup but kittens arent worth that much money'

Dont cats live for (hopefully) over 15years, dont they bring joy to your lifes as dogs do? 

That email really upset me, I know I shouldnt let it bother me but after £800 of un-seen vet costs it really gets to me that people think we 'make up' prices and earn loads of money, or that kittens arent worth the money you pay for them


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Dont let them get to you, reputable breeders are few & far between keep up the good work :thumbup:


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

I have wondered the same thing. Dogs don't have litter, vaccination fees & aren't fed and housed for 13 weeks. 

Though I do think a lot of dog breeds have more research and therefore more health checks for their breeds than cats do (my breed has a blood group test for £30 & that is it outside of regular health check ups) so can cost LOTS (hip dysplacia is so common & I am sure that isn't a cheap check). 

I do agree that the attitude of pet owners is wrong. People seem to see dogs as "worth" more than cats in general. Possibly because of their size & enormous responsibility.


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## Ren (Sep 21, 2010)

I didn't moan about my kitten price, I'm paying £400 for my ragdoll Kazuki and he is worth every penny!


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## Ren (Sep 21, 2010)

The people who sent you that email just sound like a***holes and I wouldn't want to sell them a kitten anyway!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I think it is more a question of what someone actually wants in a cat. If I wanted a pedigree cat, I would be prepared to pay the same or near the amount I would pay for a pedigree dog. I know someone who paid £1000 to two Bengali kittens who turned out to be most unsuitable with an eleven month old baby.

I think people equate a pedigree cat as not much different to a moggie, which people used to be desperate to find homes for (still are for all I know), whereas they don't equate a pedigree dog with a mongrel.

You stick to your guns. You know how much your kittens are worth, so don't let anyone upset you. What breed are they, by the way?


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

When they asked you to knock a couple of hundred pounds of your price because other people are selling them cheaper and letting them go sooner i would have just told them to go to one of these people then and buy a kitten without any health checks which parents arnt probably health tested and without any vacs let them end up with an unhealthy kitten , people like this really get up my nose , its as if the life of a cat isnt worth much or anything atall to some people .


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

Dogs are status related. A dog is a 'fashion statement'. (Please don't get offended because I know that dog lovers buy their dogs for exactly the same reason that cat lovers buy their cats). 

But dogs are much more visible than cats and that about sums it up, doesn't it?


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

I had a girl visiting last week, fell in love with a kitten, quoted all the bits and bobs on my website ("your website states that ...."), then asked the price. Now being cynical, I wouldve assumed that she wouldve seen the price clearly shown. She acted all shocked and try to get me to drop my price by £50. I declined and pointed her towards Internet adverts where she could find unvaccinated, unregistered kittens for £100 less than she wanted to pay. She looked horrified. She obviously wanted steak for the price of a happymeal. The kitten was reserved the following day by a lovely family. Some people are chancers.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

sootisox said:


> Some people are chancers.


Completely agree! What are the odds that the person emailing in the original post didn't try to haggle with the Golden Retriever breeder in the same way "cats are cheaper so why are dogs so expensive" etc. Some people cannot accept "no" & won't purchase/pay for something if they aren't getting a bargain that they worked for.


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

Would have told them too go and get the cheaper kitten, but they would probably be paying for a moggy and might as well go too a cat rehoming centre and get one for less and not waste my time.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Hi thanks for the replys, The kittens I had forsale were pedigree ragdolls for £300, reduced due to school holidays.

Other people about 30mins from me had them forsale for £350 with no vacs or papers and they all sold???

I had someone phone and ask the price, I said 'its on the advert' it really does annoy me 

I HCM test yearly, £70, and the fiv/felv test is £55 whenever I go to stud, so its yearly costs, then stud fees around £400 for raggies and £450-650 for bengals each time.

Just for example a one of hip scoring at my vet is £280 for a german shepherd (was up the vets today so was nosying about!) and stud fees are around £150-300 for the sites I looked at.

Not putting doggie breeders down at all, just people seem to think a pup is worth loads comapred to our babie cats, my partners workmates girlfriend just bought a jack russell cross yorkshire terrier for £350!! jack russells sell for £150-ish here so I found that crazy, they recently Gave (yes gave!!) it away as they both work full time, but to spend that much on a cross, and one half that isnt a ped is crazy.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> Hi thanks for the replys, The kittens I had forsale were pedigree ragdolls for £300, reduced due to school holidays.
> 
> Other people about 30mins from me had them forsale for £350 with no vacs or papers and they all sold???
> 
> ...


Off topic i know  but i thought you bred Bengals??! Congrats on a Raggie litter though.

Anyway in relation to your question: I will spend whatever i like on my pets. If i wanted a pedigree cat/kitten i would never assume to get one 'cheap' i would expect to pay a decent price for a very well bred, very well raised kitten/cat.

Not MY view, but i think a lot of people see dogs as a loyal companion that gets them out and about, one to one training to do all sorts of tricks/commands (i know cats can to but its not in your average home), they are more receptible and not so independant....etc?

Heck knows! My cats mean no more nor no less than my dogs to me! Each of my furbies are completely equal! So its a tough question to be honest!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The kittens I had forsale were pedigree ragdolls for £300, reduced due to school holidays.


Did you advertise them as 'reduced'. That alone can attract the chancers as you've told the world you are prepared to move on price.



> I had someone phone and ask the price, I said 'its on the advert' it really does annoy me


People can be very annoying but you have to bite your lip and stay sweet. People have to think of something to say the first time they phone and are often nervous at contacting a stranger. Why would they take it any further when, as you say, there are other breeders close by who may well be more pleasant.


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

sootisox said:


> I had a girl visiting last week, fell in love with a kitten, quoted all the bits and bobs on my website ("your website states that ...."), then asked the price. Now being cynical, I wouldve assumed that she wouldve seen the price clearly shown. She acted all shocked and try to get me to drop my price by £50. I declined and pointed her towards Internet adverts where she could find unvaccinated, unregistered kittens for £100 less than she wanted to pay. She looked horrified. She obviously wanted steak for the price of a happymeal. The kitten was reserved the following day by a lovely family. Some people are chancers.


I love your comparison, steak and a Happy meal lol! it annoys me greatly they expect a bargain kitten.We put in so much work,love and worry into our kittens and they think we are swimming in money, everything is paid up front for the kittens and we don't even break even. To me its not even about the money,its about wanting to do everything right as a breeder then handing them over in good faith and hoping that someone will take just as good care of them!

Maybe when we state our prices we should quote every single expense under that so people can see what it involves money wise. Emotionwise it can not be put into monetary value!

Izzie


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't get the problem of people in the house trying to haggle the price because they don't even get an appointment to visit unless we've spoken on the phone. You can generally weed out the unsuitable on the phone. It's not impossible to bring up the price. I often do so if they haven't by stating what payment methods I accept, how much I'd want for a deposit etc. If they want to haggle then I suggest they'd maybe like to think about it or discuss it with a partner and get back to me. It's an easy let out if someone can't afford it without making them feel small and gets the time wasters off the phone faster.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Off topic i know  but i thought you bred Bengals??! Congrats on a Raggie litter though.
> 
> Anyway in relation to your question: I will spend whatever i like on my pets. If i wanted a pedigree cat/kitten i would never assume to get one 'cheap' i would expect to pay a decent price for a very well bred, very well raised kitten/cat.
> 
> ...


lol have you seen my link to my site?! Ive bred raggies as long as the bengals 



havoc said:


> Did you advertise them as 'reduced'. That alone can attract the chancers as you've told the world you are prepared to move on price.
> 
> People can be very annoying but you have to bite your lip and stay sweet. People have to think of something to say the first time they phone and are often nervous at contacting a stranger. Why would they take it any further when, as you say, there are other breeders close by who may well be more pleasant.


oh no I never put reduced, its just that the scholl holis are the worst, my litter just before them all sold in 4 days, thats 6 kittens, this litter I barely had 4 emails in as many weeks, so we put them up for £300, as Id rather good homes than keep them for months and months etc

Oh Im the nicest person you can meet, just when they call ask lots of questions, which are also in the advert, then the price, also in the adert, then they say 'oh right' like Im saying '2million pounds please!'

Never had trouble, no one apart from 1 timewaster has ever left my house without a kitten (or come for one and left with 2  ) keep in touch with everyone, so Im not worried about that!


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Having people trying to haggle is part of breeding,you will from time to time get this,as dog breeders or any breeders of pets will.

I dont think it is solely down to cats,I have a breeder friend who breed Dogue de bordeux and they get from time to time simalar calls.

There are people out there that will always try and get something off, my uncle will order or buy stuff and say how much for cash,its embarrassing if your standing next to him,however he means no offense he simply in his eyes wants to make sure he is getting the best deal.

If I do get a call from a customer asking for a price to be lowered, I am polite and straight to the point,I ask them directly can you not afford the asking price,they nearly always say "Yes I can" at which point,
I then tell them or justify for use of a better word why I charge the price I do, I point out what they are paying for vaccinations,microchipping,health checks,de-worming etc.I on most occassions manage to convert them to a sale despite them ringing appearing to want to pay less.

If they say No I cant,I explain that I always advertise them early,so people that are in their financial position can save,and I offer them to pay installments over the next six weeks or so prior to the kitten becoming 13 weeks old and being ready for its new home,I also sympathise with them saying it is a common thing and it is a lot of money to pay,I also advise them as I do all my customers,that I have an open house policy on a weekend and they are free to come for coffee without making an appointment,just simply call in if they are passing, play and interact with the kitten they have reserved,this allows them to bond with the kitten and makes them less likely to drop out of any arrangement to purchase,especially if there is children involved.

Being a Cat breeder or dog breeder requires you to not only be good at breeding and know about your choosen breed(And I am not saying that anyone on here does not) but also to be as good at selling as any salesperson, people work hard for their cash and expendable income is in short supply for alot of people.So I dont find it offensive or take it personally if someone asks if the price is flexible or negotiable.Selling is about confidence in your product whether it is a car or cat,and people need to feel confident in what they are also purchasing, relate to them and their position and they will relate to you.The trouble with some breeders and I am not saying this apply,s to anyone in particular, they forget basic principles of selling Customer Service,somone purchasing a kitten is a customer and should be treat with the same professionalism,as they would if they walked into a high street store.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm sorry, but you shouldn't have to convince someone that they should buy your kitten. That's going too far. If they want it, they want it - if they don't or have any reservations then they can move on.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> I'm sorry, but you shouldn't have to convince someone that they should buy your kitten. That's going too far. If they want it, they want it - if they don't or have any reservations then they can move on.


I know, I agree! Ive had people say 'email me in a few weeks to see if I still want one!'

I dont, if someone wants one of my kittens, they call/email then come over and have one!

I just had the worst couple mess me about, I had to phone them to say 'are you having one?' While I had 2 people waiting to buy 2 in my house!

After speaking to a few people I decided not to let them have any, a week later they call me to say they dont want any! Lucky I never held them back, Ive never had to go trough so much, I dont 'sell' my kittens, I give people advice and sometimes turn people away if I feel & explain that it wouldnt be best for the kitten.

IF you want a kitten you want one, if you dont you dont!


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> I know, I agree! Ive had people say 'email me in a few weeks to see if I still want one!'
> 
> I dont, if someone wants one of my kittens, they call/email then come over and have one!
> 
> ...


Did you take a deposit from them?

I agree completely. Not had a litter yet but when I eventually do then potential homes will be treated as potential homes over customers as they aren't customers. If they aren't sure about a kitten then they aren't having one as this is something they must be 101% sure of as it is potentially 15 years of their life they are committing to!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

no deposit was taken, if I did I would have given it back after the guy called me drunk! 

Some people!!!!


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Drunk?! 

This is the part I am looking forward to the least (aside from any medical problems that could arise). Being messed around by rude people.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Yes, exactly, drunk? I'm not surprised you gave them the cold shoulder.

I've just gone back and reread this whole thread because I thought I had missed the back story to this one, and I still can't find it. :confused1:

Taylorbaby, inquiring minds need to know what happened to precipitate this accusation. They sound like very odd people...


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I have to say I've never had any trouble with those making enquiries about or buying my kittens. One young couple asked if I could move on my price, I politely pointed out why I couldn't. Another lady asked if it was alright for her to pay in instalments - of course so long as full amount was paid by the time she collected the kitten.
I allow full access to those who have paid deposits and they are welcome to visit their kitten (and the others of course) whenever they wish - times arranged to suit both parties.
I hope I continue to be so lucky with my next litter


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

I would have paid double for my Siamese and Oriental kittens. All 3 of them have brought me so much joy and love. I have the utmost respect for breeders and believe they make very little or no money from what they're doing, well, reputable ones don't!! It's definitely a labour of love 
Please don't let that moron spoil your day Taylorbaby  
ps - what breed are your kittens? any pics?


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

messyhearts said:


> Did you take a deposit from them?
> 
> I agree completely. Not had a litter yet but when I eventually do then potential homes will be treated as potential homes over customers as they aren't customers. If they aren't sure about a kitten then they aren't having one as this is something they must be 101% sure of as it is potentially 15 years of their life they are committing to!


Sorry I disagree, you are selling something, they are potentially buying something so they are a customer by definition,so they deserve Customer service a bit of professionalism goes along way, its sometimes not that they are unsure about the kitten,as they 100% really want one they are more unsure about how much they are paying for it.Its not about convicing them to buy one of your kittens, its about reassuring them that the kitten they are purchasing with their hard earned cash is worth every penny.

Most pedigree cats cost sometimes in excess of an average weekly wage,so yes some people are going to be a little un-sure about parting with that much money,they 9 times out of 10 have already sat and worked out if they can afford to keep it for the next 15 years, but they might have saved for the last month or so to raise the money to purchase their kitten.

I agree as a breeder you have a duty to find your kittens suitable candidates as owners, but you should still treat your potential owners with professionalism and give them customer service.

Ask yourself why some breeders find it difficult to find their kittens homes and have to reduce price etc whilst others can charge more and find new homes all day long and even have waiting lists.Its how they present themselves,and how they treat their customers, that sets them above the rest.Word of mouth and reputation goes along way, you do build a reputation by simply having good kittens and cats.

I would hate for one of my customers to leave and say his cats/kittens are amazing,but he was a bit cold/or distant or a pxxxk, so I treat them like a customer should I even send them a thankyou text or email saying thankyou for purchasing a kitten from Tellingtails".You have no idea how much repeat trade you get from such a simple gesture in a text.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Sorry, I don't agree with treating selling kittens as a "trade". I know full well what customer service involves having worked in it for years but I don't think it has a place in selling kittens as a "trade". 

Being pleasant and polite is patently obvious but having to haggle back with a "customer" is, in my opinion, not something that should be involved in selling animals - it is very cold and soulless, imo, referring to it all in this manner anyway. If someone needs convincing that kittens are worth £400 or that they aren't sure that they can afford £400 then maybe they should think about waiting until they are sure. I fully agree with explaining why kittens cost £400 in the first place but if they start umming & arghing because they only earn £1000 a month & aren't sure if a kitten is worth that price tag then they can move along until I am sure that they can offer a PERMANENT home. 

I'd rather not sell a kitten AT ALL than sell it to someone who isn't sure they can afford to buy and consequently keep a kitten. I'm not a cold p**** by any stretch of the imagination and I would accommodate the right home under a lot of circumstances but I would NEVER risk sending a kitten to a home that I wasn't reassured is a loving permanent home.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

When I bought my newfoundland, Ferdie, he was advertised at £1000 but he was four months old, as he had suffered a hernia and they had held him back to take care of it. Two other people were interested in him, but apparently both of them asked for a discount because of his operation. I didn't ask for a discount; I had already fallen in love with his photograph and didn't give a toss that he had had a hernia, so long as it was repaired.

One of the reasons, I am sure, that they chose me out of the three interested parties and guess what? They gave me a £200 discount!

You are right about your kittens. People know how much they are before they enquire and they should either accept that, or go get a moggie instead!


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

That's a lovely story & exactly the sort of thing I am meaning. You didn't need any convincing as it was love at first site yet you were still treated as "professionally" as breeding animals could amount to by being rewarded with a discount you didn't ask for.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Ive lived in a few countries where haggling is just the done thing (for everything) and now Im back in Europe, I am certainly not averse to haggling over the price of a telly or extra freebie accessories in my car or getting a free cushion thrown in when I buy a new couch (my husband cringes because he knows I always have to get something for nothing, even when I buy 10 kilos of cat food I do expect a few free pouches of wet food thrown in, lol)  

but one thing I would never haggle over is the price of an animal. You ask the price, if its too much, just say so politely and move on to the next breeder. I dont breed, so obviously I cant say how I would react, but I tend to think I would be totally put off prospective buyers if they tried to haggle down the price of a kitten. I just tend to think that over the course of a cats life time what is a £100 quid anyway? I think it would make me worry if they could afford vet bills for instance.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

messyhearts said:


> Sorry, I don't agree with treating selling kittens as a "trade". I know full well what customer service involves having worked in it for years but I don't think it has a place in selling kittens as a "trade".
> 
> Being pleasant and polite is patently obvious but having to haggle back with a "customer" is, in my opinion, not something that should be involved in selling animals - it is very cold and soulless, imo, referring to it all in this manner anyway. If someone needs convincing that kittens are worth £400 or that they aren't sure that they can afford £400 then maybe they should think about waiting until they are sure. I fully agree with explaining why kittens cost £400 in the first place but if they start umming & arghing because they only earn £1000 a month & aren't sure if a kitten is worth that price tag then they can move along until I am sure that they can offer a PERMANENT home.
> 
> I'd rather not sell a kitten AT ALL than sell it to someone who isn't sure they can afford to buy and consequently keep a kitten. I'm not a cold p**** by any stretch of the imagination and I would accommodate the right home under a lot of circumstances but I would NEVER risk sending a kitten to a home that I wasn't reassured is a loving permanent home.


I still disagree with you, this is why so many breeders just break even or some actually lose money,it depends on various aspects of your outlook towards breeding.

I decided that I wanted to actually do this for a living, breeding cats, I provide a complete service, breeding , stud work, grooming parlour, boarding catteries, microchipping.So customer care is of paramount importance,I want them to come back year after year.If it is a case of you are a hobby breeder and you have one or two litters a year then I guess you dont have to worry about customer service or reputation as much.

Now you say "trade" I say "professional" just because you sell more or make money and treat people like customers,does not mean you are selling "trade" I provide a professional service,I have an office, a maternity wing,a kitten nursery,boarding catteries,grooming parlour, public liability insurance,I pay taxes on my cats,my cats are treated like royality,the quality of kitten I produce,I hand on heart believe will rival any breeder,of the same breed.

Finding good homes is as important to me as you, I vet candidates just as most breeders,I have never said I would sell a kitten to a home that I was not reassurred is a loving home. I just dont count people directly out because they try to haggle. As the saying goes dont judge a book by its cover.

And just because someone is trying to get a better deal,or is careful with their cash does not mean they will be a bad owner or they cant afford to give the kitten a great quality of life.

The trouble with this world is their is so many judgemental people.And for some reason they look down on people for various reasons,they tried to haggle,they were'nt smart enough,there house was'nt clean enough,they were to near a main road.

I have heard this all before whether it is breeding or rescue centres, for crying out loud,just because a person does not conform to your set of rules or societies perception of a model citizen does not necessarily mean they are going to be a bad owner or diminish their ability to be a fantastic loving devoted pet owner.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Janee said:


> Dogs are status related. A dog is a 'fashion statement'. (Please don't get offended because I know that dog lovers buy their dogs for exactly the same reason that cat lovers buy their cats).
> 
> But dogs are much more visible than cats and that about sums it up, doesn't it?


Errrr my dog isnt status related, nor were my past 26 dogs, they were all my pets


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If it is a case of you are a hobby breeder and you have one or two litters a year then I guess you dont have to worry about customer service or reputation as much.


Oh yes it does, at least it does to me. My reputation is everything to me. It's probably the reason I have a large litter here never advertised and all spoken for before they were 4 weeks old. It's why I can be choosy with my buyers and by definition that means I am judgemental.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> this is why so many breeders just break even or some actually lose money


Hobby breeders should 'lose' money. Show me any hobby which doesn't cost you money. I can't think of another hobby where you are allowed to recoup some of your costs without it being considered income for tax purposes. It is ridiculous to imply breeders are doing something wrong by not making a profit. Any who do are 'producing goods to sell', that's never been what cat breeding is about to the majority and the taxman recognises this.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

tellingtails said:


> I still disagree with you, this is why so many breeders just break even or some actually lose money,it depends on various aspects of your outlook towards breeding.
> 
> I decided that I wanted to actually do this for a living, breeding cats, I provide a complete service, breeding , stud work, grooming parlour, boarding catteries, microchipping.So customer care is of paramount importance,I want them to come back year after year.If it is a case of you are a hobby breeder and you have one or two litters a year then I guess you dont have to worry about customer service or reputation as much.
> 
> ...


If someone is hesitant then the likelihood is much greater that they will turn around after realising that cats cost money after the initial purchase & return it to a breeder or rescue.

Having to convince someone who isn't sure about getting a kitten because of the price doesn't either have the right priorities or they may be suited to wait until they can afford it if affordability is the issue. I, personally, do NOT think it is a sign of "professionalism" to be haggling with a customer with doubts to buy a kitten. They surely must be 101% sure before they come in the door before considering selling a kitten to them. That is all I simply am saying - they could be charity volunteers or drug dealers for all I care as long as they are going to treat the kitten right & love it indefinitely.

Breeders can still be "professional" (despite breeding not being a profession) if they turn people away who aren't sure they want to spend £400 for whatever personal reason. Most breeders do not offer additional services so do not get repeat customers every year.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Most breeders do not offer additional services so do not get repeat customers every year


I agree with most of what you say but I do get repeat cutomers (either people realise they'd like a second cat or they come back to me 10-15 years down the line when they've lost their original) and a great many of my buyers come to me because I've been recommended by existing owners. I can however, absoloutely guarantee that none of them come to me because they believe I will haggle over the price


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

havoc said:


> I agree with most of what you say but I do get repeat cutomers (either people realise they'd like a second cat or they come back to me 10-15 years down the line when they've lost their original) and a great many of my buyers come to me because I've been recommended by existing owners. I can however, absoloutely guarantee that none of them come to me because they believe I will haggle over the price


Every year though? I am a repeat customer for a breeder too but I won't be going back every year. :lol:

I think a lot of people appreciate not getting a sales pitch & just being given honest information. It works both ways...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Well I do tend to get the ones who want a second cat coming back about a year after their first one and it is roughly the same period for many first-hand recommendations. Every year? No. I'd be a bit worried if all my buyers wanted a kitten per year from me


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> The trouble with this world is their is so many judgemental people.And for some reason they look down on people for various reasons,they tried to haggle,they were'nt smart enough,there house was'nt clean enough,they were to near a main road.
> 
> I have heard this all before whether it is breeding or rescue centres, for crying out loud,just because a person does not conform to your set of rules or societies perception of a model citizen does not necessarily mean they are going to be a bad owner or diminish their ability to be a fantastic loving devoted pet owner.


again, not a breeder.... but say that someone near a busy road doesn't want to keep the kitten (cat) indoors and doesn't have an outdoor run. Surely not selling to them is not being judgmental, it's just ensuring a safe as possible home for your kitten. The "dirty" and "not smart enough" aren't quite so black and white to quantify. I don't think you have to have multiple degrees and an off the scale IQ and have to live in a luxury home .... but I don't think a Steptoe and Son set up is good either. An owner has to be smart enough to know how to budget, know when to take a cat to a vet, how to keep track of vaccs and worming and flea treatments etc, know and understand why the appointment for the neuter has to be made and when it has to be made (and so on). Surely a breeder paying attention to all these things isn't just being judgmental for the sake of it... they are doing so for the sake of their kittens future welfare.

Of course I am against painting everyone with the same brush (I get so het up at the many posts in here about rescue centres with inflexiable, set-in-stone rehoming rules) but I still think rehoming kittens is a constant set of judgment calls.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> rehoming kittens is a constant set of judgment calls


Of course it is. The other side of this coin are those who can easily afford it and think flashing the cash guarantees them a kitten. I've turned plenty of them away.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

havoc said:


> Of course it is. The other side of this coin are those who can easily afford it and think flashing the cash guarantees them a kitten. I've turned plenty of them away.


Once again on this forum,people read your post and take a small segment and take it out of context, I never said I would haggle over price.My price is my price I dont alter or lower it is what it is.

I simply will not count someone out of being a customer because they asked if it is possible for a discount for example I have people if they buy two do they get a discount,it is a perfectly logical question.It is not a case of making people sure,it is simply answering a question,and giving people the correct information when they are considering their purchase,when you go and buy a car,you are given the cars history,you are given the information in terms of Mot etc,so in your head that car is safe,it makes sense.You were always going to by a car because you need one or your family would like one however you needed to be sure this was the one for you,its the same with what ever you purchase whether it be a coat or a cat.Given people the correct information,in order for them to make an educational informed decision,does not mean you are wealing and dealing or acting like stepto and son.It is not a sales pitch it is simply telling them why they should consider you over another breeder closer or another ad they have seen,if your price is £100.00 more than an ad next to yours for example on pets 4homes,the two cats look and sound indentical,why should an potential owner choose you over someone closer and cheaper.Why would a potential owner travel from say Kent to Newcastle and pay more for a kitten that they can get cheaper closer to home.Yet I have had people travel from south and pay more,I believe this is down to customer service and professionalism.

I give them professionalism and customer service because they are one parting with a lot of money and I think it is respectful,and two I offer holiday boarding,feline grooming so I want them to consider me in the future.

I have a breeding program,yet I do not consider myself primarily as a breeder, I provide a professional feline service for all aspects of feline care.

I will always disagree with you over customer care,to me its important,to my customers its important,I do not sell my kittens to anyone,I vet customers as you do.

As for being judgemental I think alot of breeders are,they think they are being cautious in terms of finding the kitten the best home,like having policies like indoor only,policies that you can in know way inforce.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Personally, my views on price are the sme for dogs and cats - but maybe because I am almost as much a "cat person" as I am a "dog person"? 

I see it like this....

If I am going to buy a mongrel dog or moggie cat, then I have an upper limit of what I will pay. 
This is because I am happy to have a pup / kitten from an "oops" litter, maybe even a one off expected litter if the littluns are raised well, but I do NOT want to pay so much money as to encourage further breeding. Enough for the breeder to recover some of the costs of feeding and worming etc yes, but not enough to make them a huge profit!

With pedigrees I am the opposite - I would be put off by "cheap" prices for the breed, because I would be wondering why they were cheaper than other breeders animals. For pedigree breeders who are involved in showing / working etc, who put a huge amount of effort into choosing the right stud, health testing, properly raising the young etc, I would happily not only pay for the priveledge of owning one of their animals, but with a profit as a "thanks for doing it right" if that makes sense?

I do realise in the grand scheme of things though people like me are odd.... I don't know many people that would pay hundreds for a cat of any breed / quality - while I know plenty that would pay a grand for a dog.

On the flip side, you also get the ejits who will buy a "rare" coloured moggie or "designer crossbreed" dog, for far more than the normal cost of a pedigree! Or who will buy their pupppy / kitten from a pet shop (shudder) with an extortionate mark-up, despite being the most badly bred, badly reared, creatures available.

Will never understand folks and their cash - or how monetary value can be placed on a life. In the same principle, I had plenty of folks think I was mad for spending money taking a hamster or similar small pet to the vet. They didn't think it was "worth it" when I could just buy a new pet for a fraction of the cost! People like that should stick to houseplants IMO.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

A little off topic, but is there a register for pedigree cats, like the Kennel Club have for dogs? I have never thought about it before, being a moggie type of cat lover. Is there such a thing?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

There's more than one. The main UK one is the GCCF and they will only register kittens as pedigree breeds *if they come from GCCF registered parents which have been specifically registered for breeding*. This is why buyers should only consider paying pedigree prices for a registered kitten as it is proof that the breeder is not breeding from any old cat. Pedigree certificates are produced by the breeder so anyone could make one up. They're a nice piece of paper but they prove nothing on their own. Registration documents come from the registration bodies.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

havoc said:


> There's more than one. The main UK one is the GCCF and they will only register kittens as pedigree breeds *if they come from GCCF registered parents which have been specifically registered for breeding*. This is why buyers should only consider paying pedigree prices for a registered kitten as it is proof that the breeder is not breeding from any old cat. Pedigree certificates are produced by the breeder so anyone could make one up. They're a nice piece of paper but they prove nothing on their own. Registration documents come from the registration bodies.


Thanks for that information. I didn't know that, being a moggie-lover.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Havoc is correct,their are various registration bodies for cats,just like their is for dogs but there are main ones that people associate with as the pinnacle,with dogs its the kennal club with cats its the GCCF,OR TICA,but you have various other registration bodies that some breeders use.

Some breeders give the Gccf a wide birth as there prices are getting worse,so dont count a breeder out if they are not with the Gccf and say choose Tica instead,google the registration body they are with check it is a ligitimate registration body.

Most registration bodies have a list of prefixes,so if the breeder has a registered prefix you can also check this online.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> I HCM test yearly, £70


Is that £70 for a scan?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> so if the breeder has a registered prefix you can also check this online


And also with the GCCF check if *any* breeder breeding from GCCF registered cats has been brought to book for disciplinary matters. Prefixes are simply purchased and do not necessarily mean the breeder has been checked out in any way.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

havoc said:


> And also with the GCCF check if *any* breeder breeding from GCCF registered cats has been brought to book for disciplinary matters. Prefixes are simply purchased and do not necessarily mean the breeder has been checked out in any way.


Correct, but remember,just because a breeder is registered with the Gccf and their cats are,and they do not appear on a disciplinary does not neccessarily mean they are all singing all dancing.

There are no home visits to check a breeders home or catteries etc,no tests to test knowledge of breed standards,The Gccf does not endorse a breeder just because the breeder has registered their cats or themselves does not in anyway mean they are competent in what they are doing.

And there is a great deal of comparison in what some people call a breeder,by definition if you have an active reg female and you take her to an active reg male,you produce your first litter,you technically are a breeder.

So you can go to someone who is registered,who's cat/cats are registered with the Gccf as active,are not on a disciplinary etc,and on paper they look ok however there is a huge difference from a suburban Mum breeding one cat.Than there is to someone like Jacky Bliss of Purebliss bengals who has dedicated her whole life,too cats and has won just about everything there is to win.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Prefixes are not just purchased, though, as many prefixes are obtained through an individual being a member of an affiliated cat club for at least a year sometimes more with approval of the signature often coming about from AGMs. Not as easy as a TICA prefix to obtain which is bought online for 1/3 of the price by anyone who wants one.


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## serenitylove (Nov 23, 2008)

iv only ever bred moggies and dont charge alot but people will still try and get cheaper i think it is just how people are


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> prefixes are obtained through an individual being a member of an affiliated cat club for at least a year


Unfortunately the way you worded this gives the impression someone must be a member for at least a year before applying for a prefix, sadly not true. Each club has it's own criteria and there are some which will sign a prefix application form as soon as someone has joined the club, you cannot join one without paying a year's membership so will be a member for a full year. Some area clubs are more known for this, breed clubs tend to want to know who they're dealing with. The only thing the GCCF check is that the prefix applied for does not contravene certain rules to do with place names etc. and is sufficiently different from any existing prefix.

The point I was trying to make (admittedly not well) is that having a prefix guarantees nothing extra. A non prefix holder is subject to exactly the same disciplinary procedures as a prefix holder. This is made clear at the top of the Code of Ethics, a copy of which should be given to every kitten buyer.


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## Maiisiku (Feb 20, 2009)

This is my take on the whole thing. Personally I am a cat & dog person so I may have a diffirent idea. But for cats it would very much depend on what I was getting. In the future I intend on paying around $600 for a Bengel kitten as I love them so much (Sorry about US prices it's because I'm moving before I get one). However if I ever were to get a Malamute or Sibe I would pay an upward limit of $1500 or £600 in the UK. It depends on the breed of the animal and what the going rate is. It also depends on if they are registered, how they have been raised, if I have seen health tests.

Honestly if I was going for a pedigree cat in the UK I'd be a max of £600 but that is because I know what the going rate is. I would go higher for some breeds of dogs but not others and the same for cats. I do my research first. However I've always had my moggies and I didn't pay for Dante he was given to me as he was abandoned. I private rescued Bailey and paid £60. Yuri was more expensive and is still a cross. But he came with vacs, microchip etc and the cats did not. Actually all in all I paid more for Bailey than I did for Yuri after everything was done.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> Once again on this forum,people read your post and take a small segment and take it out of context,


what you mean, like you taking my Steptoe & Son comment and using it of context? 

I was responding to what you wrote in an earlier post; this bit



tellingtails said:


> The trouble with this world is their is so many judgemental people.And for some reason they look down on people for various reasons,they tried to haggle,they were'nt smart enough,there house was'nt clean enough,they were to near a main road.
> 
> I have heard this all before whether it is breeding or rescue centres, for crying out loud,just because a person does not conform to your set of rules or societies perception of a model citizen does not necessarily mean they are going to be a bad owner or diminish their ability to be a fantastic loving devoted pet owner.


You know, this I am not judgmental stuff, its just a cute sounding but ultimately meaningless soundbite when it is used in the context of rehoming kittens.

By definition, the minute you vet a potential owner (to any degree), youre judging them. How can you possibly vet an owner and not judge them?

And like I explained earlier, all the examples you gave earlier of judgemental breeders and shelters, not rehoming kittens because the potential new owners were not smart enough/lived too near a main road/had a dirty home none of them are per definition wrong or bad judgements. They _can_ be bad judgements, but that is not a given. Sure there may be a breeder who finds home X too dirty and another breeder finds that same home acceptable, but each and every example you gave of judgmental behaviour, _can_ be valid reasons not to rehome a kitten in that environment.

Each case should be judged on its individual merrits. A home near a busy road may be fine for a an indoor cat, but not for an outdoor cat etc etc.



tellingtails said:


> As for being judgemental I think alot of breeders are,they think they are being cautious in terms of finding the kitten the best home,like having policies like indoor only,policies that you can in know way inforce.


Lots of things can't be legally enforced, that doesn't however mean breeders (or shelters) can fail to address them completely. What's judgmental about a breeder not wanting to rehome his or her kittens to a home where they are free to go outdoors unsupervised? If I could send all my foster kittens off to indoor-only homes, I would (although in ideal world a cat-proof garden or catrun would be the best solution). Its not a realistic prospect though as 8 to 9 out of every 10 moggies in this country have unsupervised access to the outdoors. I live in a very busy city, with a shelter with 2 chest freezers filled with dead cats killed on the road in the last 14 days (after 14 days they are disposed of)  so say if I had one kitten and two sets of prospective owners who are identical in all other aspects, and the only thing separating them is home A would be indoor only with a catproofed garden and the home would B be indoor/outdoor. I would choose home A. Does that make me judgmental?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Does that make me judgmental?


Yes  Is being judgemental a bad thing though? I'd hope buyers are judgemental too. Same thing applies that way round, what one buyer may find acceptable in a breeder another won't.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Colette said:


> breeders who are involved in showing / working etc, who put a huge amount of effort into choosing the right stud, health testing, properly raising the young etc, I would happily not only pay for the priveledge of owning one of their animals, but with a profit as a "thanks for doing it right" if that makes sense?


it makes perfect sense to me :thumbsup:

I really don't pay for the looks.... I don't show, don't breed, don't care a jot if the tail is a bit bent or the ears are too wide set... I want peds as I want to support ethical and responsible breeding practices.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> Yes  Is being judgemental a bad thing though? I'd hope buyers are judgemental too. Same thing applies that way round, what one buyer may find acceptable in a breeder another won't.


ohhhhhh I soooooo agree with you there. I welcome any and all vetting a breeder cares to throw at me. BUT... you better believe that's a two way street, lol. I won't even pretend I know what breeders are on about with all this genetic stuff, and is a kitten show quality or not, and the "lines" it comes from (all goes wayyy over my head) ... but I do know clean well looked after, well socialised kittens and queens when I see them. And I do think kitten buyers should be uber-critical of breeders too.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Good thread!


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Whilst I would love to get into a huge debate,over this topic I will politely agree to disagree, I have explained why I feel justified in calling them customers.

I have repeatly,explained I vet like anyone else and kitten welfare is as important to me,and that I will not judge people solely for some of the reasons others do.

I am not a judgemental person,regardless of someones differences to me.
I will not judge a book by its cover.

But as i said there are those on this forum that like to only read a segmant and tear strands of it apart to mean something else or blow it way out of proportion and context.

To some they are owners,to some they are prospective clients,to some they are adoptive parents,to me they are customers.

"Tomato" "Tomatoe"

What ever you call them it is up to you,but you have the same goal to find a kitten a good home for the price you are asking, my original point was it is part of breeding or any selling for that matter you will from time to time always get someone try and get a better deal.

And why someone should get annoyed,find it offensive or judge someone simply because they are trying to get a good deal is to me beyond belief.
If you are purchasing a holiday or a car you shop around and try to get a good deal,so why should it be any different when purchasing a cat,but thats just my opinion.

I understand how hard people work for there cash,and that also in todays current economic climate that they are extremely cautious about spending their earnings so I am not going to be offended when someone asks if the price is fixed or if they by two do they get a discount.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> I am not a judgemental person,regardless of someones differences to me.
> I will not judge a book by its cover.


No one on this thread is being judgmental just for the sake of it TT, no one is judging books by their covers, or basing their decision to rehome a kitten on personal differences.... like you, they are making judgment calls to ensure the best possible future for their kittens.

To pretend you are not judgemental and admit you do vet owners.... sorry, that's a contradcition in terms.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

I vet owners based on them,that is not a contradiction if an owner comes to my house in scruffy work boots and torn jeans,I do not pass judgement.

And when I say I vet them, my decision is based on their answers to questions, not on what they have or how they are dressed,or where they live, or how close they are to a main road,or what their views are on indoor/outdoor.

Thats not being judgemental, it is making a decision on how somebody presents themselves to you.

So once again I disagree,if I said no it would be that the person was not knowledgeable enough about the breed,or about the cat/kittens needs.The decision is never based on the look of them or how much money they have or how nice there house is,so sorry I am not a judgemental person and I am not pretending to not be judgemental either.

I vet with questions based on the breed,and the raising of a kitten.Anything else I consider a waste of time, I know there are those of you that disagree,but if you ask questions like can you afford it,without asking them to provide bank statements how would you actually know,or if you said is it to remain indoors and they said yes again how would you know,if they came dressed in their sunday best how do you know the rest of the week they are not in torn jeans and work books.

So I am sorry Tje I dont consider myself a judgemental person,depite you thinking I am being contradicting by saying I vet my customers.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> I vet owners based on them,that is not a contradiction if an owner comes to my house in scruffy work boots and torn jeans,I do not pass judgement.


TT, no one on this thread (or ever, that I recall, on this forum) has said they vet owners based on what clothes they wear.

You started this others breeders/shelters are often too judgmental thing by saying



tellingtails said:


> The trouble with this world is their is so many judgemental people.And for some reason they look down on people for various reasons,they tried to haggle,they were'nt smart enough,there house was'nt clean enough,they were to near a main road.
> 
> I have heard this all before whether it is breeding or rescue centres, for crying out loud,just because a person does not conform to your set of rules or societies perception of a model citizen does not necessarily mean they are going to be a bad owner or diminish their ability to be a fantastic loving devoted pet owner.


So maybe if you explain WHY breeders or shelters are wrong and being overly judgmental when they decide not to sell/rehome to someone who lives too near a main road, or has a dirty home, or werent clever enough. then well get somewhere.

I have already stated why all of those COULD conceivably be valid reasons not to rehome a kitten with them, but since youre the one that was calling those reasons into question in the first place maybe its better if you explain.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Tje 
Once again you take one line about jeans and twist it to mean something else,the whole text reads about how they are dressed or were they live etc.

I can not comment on how other people think in terms of vetting,However I have throughout my work spoke to customers who have been turned away by breeders,who have said to them they are too close to a main road, I have heard of people turned down because they have children and have been told that the kittens or cat is not suitable for a household with children,I have met people and spoke to people who have been told the cat is for indoor only,despite them living in the middle of nowhere,so where you point out that they are ligitimate reasons for a breeder to act as they are being responsible for the best for their kitten.I am simply pointing out that the other side of the coin that people are often over looked uneccessarily due to people being uneccessarily judgemental about were they live,or they have children,or there garden was,nt big enough or they lived in an apartment,these are all excuses people on this forum have been told.It happens.

I also have dealt with the other side of the coin,potential owners fustrated because they have been unneccesarily rejected,they were willing to provide a loving home for cat /kitten. Owners that have been looked up and down when they have walked into a rescue centre,and virtually not given the time of day because some worker has passed judgement the minute she set eyes on them.

For you to ask maybe I should explain why I think they are wrong,how can I explain how another breeder or rescue centre feels or enforces its policies on rehoming or selling a kitten,I can only comment on how I feel.

I personally feel there are to many judgemental people in the world,and that everyone deserves the right to choose a cat/kitten based on them rather than what they have or what they look like,or that they tried to get value for money.I personally do not see the harm in someone saying is the price flexible or if I buy two can I have discount.

You said in a previous post above:
"No one on this thread is being judgmental just for the sake of it TT"

My intial response is based on reading all the posts on this thread,like REN on the first page who thinks they sound like arxxxxoles,because they asked for a reduction in price (is this not being judgemental),I simply pointed out it is part of breeding people haggling,its life people want a good deal,and pointing out why you wont reduce your price is not convincing them it is mearly justifying or pointing out why you charge more than someone else,a point you seem to constantly over look,in favour of an debate over being judgemental.

In my opinion there are breeders and rescue centres out there that are to judgemental or to particular in their criteria for a perspective owner,client,parent or customer.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think we are all judgemental whether we like it or not.

Every day we make judgements on people we know little about, merely by the way they look, or the way they speak or the way they conduct themselves.
Some of them have hardly said hello and we have already made up our minds.

I am sure all rescue people and breeders are the same.
Of course they may be proved wrong and may have made some terrible mistakes.

I think sometimes those who are rejected as suitable owners do not always tell the complete story too, so they may have been rejected solely on their choice of dog or cat and not really on how suitable they are as pet owners in general. They may have come across as not being very knowledgeable or may have come across as know-it-alls, or overbearing or inflexible or too desperate perhaps or the rescuer/breeder may just have "got a feeling". There may be just a huge personality clash so the rescuer/breeder just doesn't want their hand-reared heart kitten going to such "horrible" people. They may not have got round to letting go of the animal yet too, or have envisioned their favorite going to a little old lady instead of the boisterous family that showed up.
There are a million reasons, some of them justified others probably not.

As regards people wanting "deals", I think that to some breeders and rescuers, their animals are not just goods to be bargained for, they are living beings. So the fact that someone mentions the "money" word is a step too far, so they are sent away as being totally unsuitable.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> To some they are owners,to some they are prospective clients,to some they are adoptive parents,to me they are customers.


You have already stated you breed 'as a part of your business' so it would make sense that you regard them as customers. The upside is you presumably get to offset your expenses and put everything through the books. The vast majority of cat breeders in this country are hobbyists, enthusiasts is probably a better word as there are 'hobby' breeders with huge knowledge.

Over the years there have been many 'discussions' with various bodies and we have fought hard for our amateur status. It's accepted by HMRC that we don't make a profit. It was accepted by Defra (thanks to a huge amount of work by the GCCF and some members) at the discussion stage that we shouldn't be subject to the Transportation of Animals Act. Much consumer law doesn't apply to private sales. All of this means someone breeding as a business is going to see things a completely different way and will need to make money because of the costs of complying with legislation. Those of us who are, and always will be amateurs are bound to view it differently.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Interesting thread.

For me, It was celestes breeder first before breed. I found a breeder i could trust, who bred healthy animals, fulfilled everything i was looking for in a breeder and who will support me as an owner (and potential exhibitor) for the lifetime of the pet. 

If she decided to go into a new breed tomorrow i would more than likely still follow her and swap breeds myself for my next kitten rather than choose another breeder.

I dont know whether its working in rescue or something else, but for me the breeder was more important to me than the breed. I am sure TJE has said similar on past threads and i do think its probably our background in rescue that makes us feel like that. We've seen the worst of the worst, and so we want a breeder that to us is the best of the best.


As for being judgemental, this is part of a kitten buyers responsibility. We all make judgements based on the information supplied. Whether your the buyer or the seller, we all make judgements.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> Tje Once again you take one line about jeans and twist it to mean something else,the whole text reads about how they are dressed or were they live etc.


And TT, you do the exact same just look at my Steptoe & Son comment, you took that totally out of context (or twisted it, if youd rather use that word, although I dont like that term as it implies a certain amount of malice). But anywayyy, thats the nature of forum debate, and why I made a light hearted comment about it, to show you the irony of your bemoaning other people taking your words out of context when you do the exact same yourself. Forum debate isnt A makes one point and B counters that one point then its back over to A to make another one single point. Its A makes 17 points and B focuses on whatever points he/she wants to address. That applies to you and to me and to everyone. None of us address every point made. And youre just capable as the next man (woman) of twisting a point or taking it out of context. But you do seem to get more upset than most when others do it with you 



tellingtails said:


> I have met people and spoke to people who have been told the cat is for indoor only,despite them living in the middle of nowhere,so where you point out that they are ligitimate reasons for a breeder to act as they are being responsible for the best for their kitten.


No, I _didnt_ say they were categorically legitimate reasons. I said all the examples you gave _could conceivably be _legitimate reasons. There is a BIG difference between the two. And that is the whole reason I took issues with your words.



tellingtails said:


> I am simply pointing out that the other side of the coin that people are often over looked uneccessarily due to people being uneccessarily judgemental about were they live,or they have children,or there garden was,nt big enough or they lived in an apartment,these are all excuses people on this forum have been told.It happens.


When you used the 3 examples of too dirty home/too close to a main road/not clever enough. You made it sounds like those could never be valid reasons for not rehoming a kitten to that environment. I took issue with that because they can be valid reasons.

If you used 3 other examples of judgmental breeders or shelters say they wont sell to people who wear jeans, people who drive economy model cars or people with red hair. I wouldnt have argued with you. Those can never be valid reasons not to rehome a kitten with them, but the examples you used _could_ all be valid reasons.



tellingtails said:


> I also have dealt with the other side of the coin,potential owners fustrated because they have been unneccesarily rejected,they were willing to provide a loving home for cat /kitten. Owners that have been looked up and down when they have walked into a rescue centre,and virtually not given the time of day because some worker has passed judgement the minute she set eyes on them.


As I already categorically stated in an earlier reply, youll never hear me arguing that point. I continually get very annoyed on this forum about the high amount of posts we get about rescue orgs and shelters with totally inflexible rehoming rules. However, I cant say I have came across any breeders on the forum who are so silly in their applications of their rules.



tellingtails said:


> I have met people and spoke to people who have been told the cat is for indoor only,despite them living in the middle of nowhere,so where you point out that they are ligitimate reasons for a breeder to act as they are being responsible for the best for their kitten.I am simply pointing out that the other side of the coin that people are often over looked uneccessarily due to people being uneccessarily judgemental about were they live


Sure you might feel that people who live in the middle of nowhere are safe bets to rehome a kitten as an indoor/outdoor cat. I would too. But that doesnt give us the right to say that a breeder who chose not to is wrong or is being overly judgmental. Even houses in the middle of nowhere do have a busy road within a cats daily wander distance. People who live in the middle of nowhere do also lose their cats to road traffic accidents. You and me might feel thats an acceptable risk we are willing to take. But can we impose our standards on other breeders? Or call them overly judgmental because they feel the risk is too high? I think if we did wed just be being judgmental.



tellingtails said:


> I personally feel there are to many judgemental people in the world,and that everyone deserves the right to choose a cat/kitten based on them rather than what they have or what they look like,or that they tried to get value for money.I personally do not see the harm in someone saying is the price flexible or if I buy two can I have discount.


which is your prerogative, and I respect that. But respect is a two way street. What you or I feel is acceptable does not mean another person has to feel the same way or has to be criticized because they feel certain behavior is off putting. To each their own. You dont mind people who haggle over the price of a kitten, other breeders do mind. There is no wrong or right. What irritates one person, is and always will be, perfectly acceptable to another. There is no universal list of acceptable and non-acceptable pet hates and irritations.



tellingtails said:


> You said in a previous post above:
> "No one on this thread is being judgmental just for the sake of it TT"
> My intial response is based on reading all the posts on this thread,like REN on the first page who thinks they sound like arxxxxoles,because they asked for a reduction in price (is this not being judgemental),


Not any more so than a good few of your responses TT. 

and it was a one-off one-liner reply.... I tend not to even notice those. When I said people on this thread weren't being judgmental just for the sake of it... I meant more those who were actually taking part in the debate. Not so much those who left a fleeting one-liner.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> I dont know whether its working in rescue or something else, but for me the breeder was more important to me than the breed. I am sure TJE has said similar on past threads and i do think its probably our background in rescue that makes us feel like that. We've seen the worst of the worst, and so we want a breeder that to us is the best of the best..


yep, I now have BSHs (as you know, lol) but if my breeder friend started breeding MCs tomorrow then my next cat would be a MC. I am very flexible on the breed of cats, I like everything feline. But I am very inflexible on breeders standards, lol.



billyboysmammy said:


> As for being judgemental, this is part of a kitten buyers responsibility. We all make judgements based on the information supplied. Whether your the buyer or the seller, we all make judgements.


I totally agree with that too. Rehoming kittens (and buying kittens) is one judgment call after another after another. And so it should be!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I have to say, I worry more about my rescues being outdoor cats going to homes in the country with less busy roads than i do with those who are homed in the town centre with constantly busy roads.

Those in the town centre, are faced with roads which are busy day and night with slow moving traffic. Their territories are limited due to these roads, and so many of them are confined to one side of the street or another. Cats in the country can literally roam for miles, but do not expect the car when it comes speeding down their national speed limit lane because cars are a rare occurance.

I live nearby a non-busy country road. A well known cat rescue charity repeatedly rehomes kittens to the same lady who's cats are consistently knocked down. The road is not busy enough for the kittens to learn any form of road sense, so they just repeatedly condemn their cats to an early death. Yet they will not consider anyone who lives in the town centre as they do not feel the roads are safe!!! 

These are judgements that this charity has made, but which i feel are 100% wrong. So i have made my own judgements. It doesnt mean i would never home an outdoor cat to a country home, but it does mean i am even more careful. I (and the rescues i work for) dont operate on blanket policies, and each application is taken on its own merits.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Good point BBM. 

Since my childhood years I haven&#8217;t really lived in the country side&#8230; but what you say does bring back memories of the many dead cats we used to find on the roads around the very remote Scottish village I grew up in. We even lost out own family cat to a road death in that middle of nowhere village. There was a bypass a few miles outside of the village and our cat got pretty splattered on that bypass. I think 60mph was the limit on that bypass but 80mph is never that much on an oddity on a 60mph road. And the country lanes around the village were no doddle either!! 

Also totally agree with you on the "no blankets rules bit"&#8230; each case get judged on its own merits. I would never again work for a rescue that did have blanket rules.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

More cats are killed on the minor roads in my area than on the racetrack that is the bypass. The countryside really isn't safe. Farm vehicles account for far more cat deaths than domestic cars round here.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

havoc said:


> More cats are killed on the minor roads in my area than on the racetrack that is the bypass. The countryside really isn't safe. Farm vehicles account for far more cat deaths than domestic cars round here.


My feelings exactly!


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> I'm sorry, but you shouldn't have to convince someone that they should buy your kitten. That's going too far. If they want it, they want it - if they don't or have any reservations then they can move on.


Agreed! at the end of the day if they feel obliged to buy one because its made easier for them then they really aren't the right person for your kitten!

NO kittens are getting sold over here at the moment,must just be a bad time I think.I have four lovely babies that look like they will be here for a while but I don't want it to get to Xmas and people approaching me then!

At the end of the day people will always go to the breeder who sells them for less,its a fact of life. They will choose price over quality any day.It would be nice for someone to say oh I really want that kitten, no matter what the cost,but it rarely happens like that, well all I say to that is they are missing out on a fantastic little companion.

Izzie


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> They will choose price over quality any day


My buyers don't. I charge more than most for my breed though that is because certain extra things are included in the price. I do think many people are getting more clued up and will pay for quality and value.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> But you do seem to get more upset than most when others do it with you


I am sorry but I am not getting upset or even annoyed,I am merely stating my point Tje



> and it was a one-off one-liner reply.... I tend not to even notice those. When I said people on this thread weren't being judgmental just for the sake of it... I meant more those who were actually taking part in the debate. Not so much those who left a fleeting one-liner


Whether it is a passing statement,or a one-liner,its is still someone being judgemental,and if you state no-one on this thread is being judgemental for the sake of it,but then count certain people out,maybe you should be more specific in your response or claim that nobody is being judgemental on this thread for the sake of it.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

havoc said:


> My buyers don't. I charge more than most for my breed though that is because certain extra things are included in the price. I do think many people are getting more clued up and will pay for quality and value.


I agree people are getting more knowledgeable,and alot of my customers have done an incredible amount of reasearch prior to coming to view.And that to some price is less important than the Quality of the kitten,but you will always get some that want it for less.


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

havoc said:


> My buyers don't. I charge more than most for my breed though that is because certain extra things are included in the price. I do think many people are getting more clued up and will pay for quality and value.


I think part of my problem is I am a new breeder and people in the know will tend to go to the more established breeders.

I think my kittens are quality and I am not prepared to quibble on the price,if people aren't happy with paying out a certain price for a kitten what else will they not pay for,essential visits to the vets etc?

Its great you get what you ask for price wise,do you get people coming back for a second or third kitten! I think once people find a breeder they like they will always return to them!

Izzie


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I do get people coming back and most of my sales are word of mouth recommendations. It does take time to build a good reputation (it takes no time at all to lose it) so stick with high standards and you'll be surprised how quickly you'll be getting enquiries from 'someone who knows someone who's cousin had a kitten from you'


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

havoc said:


> I do get people coming back and most of my sales are word of mouth recommendations. It does take time to build a good reputation (it takes no time at all to lose it) so stick with high standards and you'll be surprised how quickly you'll be getting enquiries from 'someone who knows someone who's cousin had a kitten from you'


I agree I call them customers,I know not everyone agrees with that terminology,however I am a business with a breeding program. Word of mouth(recommends) accounts for about 60% of my business,30% is approxiamately made up of repeat trade customers returning for other services or a second kitten,and only 10% is new customers.

I have to agree high standards whether you call them potential owners,adoptive parents or customers is the key to developing a good reputation.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> Whether it is a passing statement,or a one-liner,its is still someone being judgemental,and if you state no-one on this thread is being judgemental for the sake of it,but then count certain people out,maybe you should be more specific in your response or claim that nobody is being judgemental on this thread for the sake of it.


Well you're being judgemental too and doing more than your fair share of painting with a broad brush when it comes to breeders or shelters who won't rehome to people too close to a main road, or people they feel aren't clever enough or people who live in a dirty home. Maybe you should be more specific. As I have already said (umpteen times) these _can_ be very valid reasons not to rehome a kitten. You can try to detract from the point I have continually made by focussing on a one-liner post, or you can focus on explaining your own accusations of why these breeders and sheters are wrong and overly judgmental. I don't think they are wrong... as I have already said and explained why.


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

Tje said:


> Well you're being judgemental too and doing more than your fair share of painting with a broad brush when it comes to breeders or shelters who won't rehome to people too close to a main road, or people they feel aren't clever enough or people who live in a dirty home. Maybe you should be more specific. As I have already said (umpteen times) these _can_ be very valid reasons not to rehome a kitten. You can try to detract from the point I have continually made by focussing on a one-liner post, or you can focus on explaining your own accusations of why these breeders and sheters are wrong and overly judgmental. I don't think they are wrong... as I have already said and explained why.


I would not rehome to a home where they would be near a main road, people will often say they will keep a kitten in but are very often telling a breeder what they want to hear. Not sure about homing to someone that wasn't clever,I think thats very hard to judge,someone may not be clever but have plenty of commonsense which is an entirely different thing altogether.

A dirty home,well I have been in one breeders house that was absolutely filthy,I couldn't even bring myself to use a cup to have a drink without gagging,surely a dirty house is going to cause all sorts of health issues.

As a breeder we want the absolute best for our kittens, we have put the love and hard work and often heartache to get them to 13 weeks of age. Why would we do all that and then pass them onto a less than adequate home?? A person can have all the right intentions but that does not always mean that it will work out well. I don't mean that with any disrespect to anyone, I think without having any kind of judgement as a breeder we are putting our precious babies at risk!

Izzie


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> I agree I call them customers,I know not everyone agrees with that terminology,however I am a business with a breeding program.


Passing my own "judgement".

A breeder who says that she has customers and has a business is not the type of breeder I am really impressed with generally unless they have exemplary "professional" standards.

Surely a truly professional "business" needs to tick all the boxes for health testing, ethics and care, otherwise it could just be called a money-making machine.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Izzie999 said:


> I would not rehome to a home where they would be near a main road, people will often say they will keep a kitten in but are very often telling a breeder what they want to hear. Not sure about homing to someone that wasn't clever,I think thats very hard to judge,someone may not be clever but have plenty of commonsense which is an entirely different thing altogether.
> 
> A dirty home,well I have been in one breeders house that was absolutely filthy,I couldn't even bring myself to use a cup to have a drink without gagging,surely a dirty house is going to cause all sorts of health issues.
> 
> ...


Izzie, I can totally agree with all your reasoning and explanations on how you reach the decisions you do.

As my kittens are just shelter moggies I _have_ to be verrrry flexible on the outdoor thing. I wish I didnt, but its just the way it is with moggy kittens, 8 out of 10 of them will be allowed free access to the outdoors. The shelter I volunteer for _encourages_ cats to be kept indoors prospective owners just get a chat about road death statistics with cats in our city, but thats about it really. Its always a massive plus point for me when I do get prospective owners come to see my kittens and they intend to keep them as indoor cats (especially if they also have access to a catproofed garden, balcony or catrun).

Dirty houses well, for the life of me I cant work out why someone who already cant keep their house clean without a cat, would then want to get a cat that would only make it worse, but it is (unfortunately) something I have came across quite a lot. And I know not just cats with dirty litter trays develop peeing/pooping outside of the tray problems but a dirty litter tray almost guarantees problems in that department, and too often cats are dumped in shelters because they are supposedly "not litter trained" or "have accidents all the time", when maybe it was the owner who needed training on the hygiene levels that cat toilets demand.

The not so clever thing is indeed tougher to quantify a few years back I rehomed a 12 week old kitten with a mentally handicapped young woman who lives in a kind of sheltered housing project (I mean, she has her own home in that complex, but there is also a warden that checks in on the residents daily, and social workers are on call during the day etc, a sort of support type living I think it would be called). She is managing great with that cat now, it must be about 4 years old by now, but it was a tough decision to make and I needed the help and cooperation of that womans elderly parents before I would commit to rehoming the kitten with her. I really wasnt sure she even understood why the kitten would have to be neutered at 6 months old. And she had some weird ideas about training cats, lol.. and I was really afraid how she would react when it panned out this kitten wasnt going to be able to learn all these cute tricks she had seen on some tv program.

And thats all I have been saying all along. The reasons that Tellingtales stated as examples of judgmental behavior on the part of breeders or shelters its *not* always them being judgmental for the sake of it. Its often (if not always) them doing the responsible thing for the pets in their care.

Not rehoming to someone because they dont have a university degree is wrong not rehoming to someone because they dont have the mental wherewithal to take on the responsibility of a cat is completely different. Idem ditto for dirty houses and outdoor access. They too can be valid reasons.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> Passing my own "judgement".
> 
> A breeder who says that she has customers and has a business is not the type of breeder I am really impressed with generally unless they have exemplary "professional" standards.
> 
> Surely a truly professional "business" needs to tick all the boxes for health testing, ethics and care, otherwise it could just be called a money-making machine.


Firstly I am a he not a she,secondly may I suggest you at least check out my business either by visiting my website or popping in for a coffee.

And you will see my exemplary standards and dedication to my cats,and my business,so to me they are customers,and just because I call them customers does not mean I have not ticked all the boxes.

I have business insurance,Public liabilty insurance,health insurance not only for my cats,but for any animal in my care,My catteries are tiled with heated floors,each cat has his own accomadation,with there own personal run,with the exception of Bella and Daisy Sisters who love to share tried them on their own however they cried constantly to be with each other,they love to cuddle together.I have a maternity wing for my cats to give birth in and raise her kittens undisturbed for the first two weeks,I have a nursery build for customers to come and have a coffee and play with their chosen kitten and her siblings, they still have the run of the house,it was just frustrating for customers when they came to view,and the littlle tykes would run under the sofa or behind the Tv unit etc,so created a beautiful room with floor to ceiling sratch posts and beanbags etc so when someone comes they can take the kittens in there and play to there hearts content,un-disturbed.

Kitten/cat safety and health are of paramount importance,I make everyone who comes to my house,sanatise their hands with alcohol sprays whether they are there to see kittens or cats or just simply around to visit the family.
I have strict worming schedules and frontline schedules,each cat has its own Diary which is filled in daily,what it ate ,how much,what time, when it was groomed, by whom, how long,are there any health concerns, what time was there cattery cleaned,litter change,was their bedding changed.I have an office with a booking in computer with a specific boarding and grooming program, so each clients details are logged along with records of their pets,what vet they are registered with,what health issues they have etc.

So to say I take this very serious is an understatement,so yes I class myself as having a great deal of professionalism when it comes to my cats and the services I provide.

There is nothing wrong with breeders who have a couple of cats,and do not have the services I provide and simply dedicate their lives to producing,excellent quality kittens,some of my dearest friends are this style of breeder.

However years ago when I decided to start my business,I was one of these hobby breeders and the biggest problem I found was when I did go on holiday,I could not relax due to me worrying if my cats were being well looked after.So I decided I would be a different kind of breeder,I would set up a boarding facility were owners of my kittens could bring them to be looked after,whether it be a family emergency or a holiday,and they could relax knowing they were in good care,who better to look after there beloved Cat than the person who helped bring it into the world in the first place.

The grooming side was set up for simalar reasons,their are some pet owners that do not feel comfortable in clipping paws,or bathing their cat,so for this reason I created the grooming parlour.

I am sorry if you do not agree with calling them customers,but to me they are,when they purchase a cat they have become the new owner,but when they bring it back for grooming or boarding,or call up to purchase frontline or worming tablets etc they are a customer, they get an invoice or a reciept just like any other business or shop, and they get customer service just as they would if they went to a pet store or a high street shop.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Tje said:


> Not rehoming to someone because they dont have a university degree is wrong not rehoming to someone because they dont have the mental wherewithal to take on the responsibility of a cat is completely different. Idem ditto for dirty houses and outdoor access. They too can be valid reasons.


Agreed! I'd be worried if there was anyone out there that didn't, for example, have serious reservations if new owner says in all seriousness "how much milk do they need a day" because their sole research was Tom & Jerry as a kid. That does get asked & if they don't know that cats drink water then rehoming to homes like that isn't very reputable imo. Judgements are necessary but they are for a reason. It's not like me making a website for someone & saying "well you like pink & I hate it so due to your poor taste I will have to say no" or something as that has no later implications on a LIFE.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> Firstly I am a he not a she,secondly may I suggest you at least check out my business either by visiting my website or popping in for a coffee.
> 
> And you will see my exemplary standards and dedication to my cats,and my business,so to me they are customers,and just because I call them customers does not mean I have not ticked all the boxes.
> 
> ...


I'd be very interested to see lots of pictures of your set up Gary :thumbsup:


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

A typical one of my cattery runs aurelia every thing a cat needs, tiled heated floors,scratch posts,individual housing and unlimited access to their own personal runs,I have six of these blocks in total,I will take more pics tomorrow of the whole set up. But this gives you some idea of my standard.

I think I tick all the boxes.:thumbsup:

If you are ever in the area you can call for coffee,my wife and I will make you most welcome.:thumbup::thumbup:


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## SuperSimoholic (Sep 16, 2010)

I think the kind of people that complain about the cost of a well bred, well looked after kitten are people who think a cat is a cat, but a dog is a doberman or a retriever Ect.
People pay for the breed, like some people would expect to pay more for one breed of dog than they would another, but they see a cat as one thing, no matter what breed (is that the right term for cats? types) they are, and expect you to charge the same as the woman down the street who didn't get her cat done in time and is now selling the kittens for £40 each.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Hi Aurelia,

Here are some pics of my birthing box, my females move into here about 3 days before they are due and stay for the first week,after birth of there kittens.

It has a secluded area,where she can give birth feeling secure but also has a door so I can access and help if needed, it has two levels accessed via a ramp,incase she wishes to stretch her legs etc,it easily opens up so she can still have the run of the house and escape for a little break from her kittens and a little cuddle.It is tiled so it is easy to keep clean and sanatise between births.:thumbup:


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## frizzy67 (Aug 1, 2010)

As I have just Taken delivery of my darling bundle of joy from TT I can speak from experience.
I am over the moon with my Lamia (mia cat). I have visited Garys Catteries Numerous times over the last 8 weeks and may i say i am well impressed with not only his setup, his studs and queens but the friendly professional service that he provided. :thumbup:
He allowed all my family to come and get to know our kitten and more importantly our kitten to get to know us. this has proved to be invaluable as you can see from my other post it only took 10mins for my baby to settle into her new home.:thumbsup:
He made perfectly sure that we were suitable candidates to look after 1 of his kittens.
the service he provided was next to none and the after care package he offers is the main reason i chose him as the breeder of an important part of our family.
I will continue to be a customer of TT for all my aftercare needs and in no way am I insulted that he thinks of me in these terms.
well done TT:thumbup:


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> A typical one of my cattery runs aurelia every thing a cat needs, tiled heated floors,scratch posts,individual housing and unlimited access to their own personal runs,I have six of these blocks in total,I will take more pics tomorrow of the whole set up. But this gives you some idea of my standard.
> 
> I think I tick all the boxes.:thumbsup:
> 
> If you are ever in the area you can call for coffee,my wife and I will make you most welcome.:thumbup::thumbup:


Gorgeous cattery! your cats look very contented!

Izzie


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

blimey! so many repliess! longest Ive ever started!

what annoyed me wastghat there are siamese x ragdoll kittens for sale for £250 & £295, no vacs nothing, yet mine are £300 vac and reg!

who buys these cats?!



Atlantys said:


> Yes, exactly, drunk? I'm not surprised you gave them the cold shoulder.
> 
> I've just gone back and reread this whole thread because I thought I had missed the back story to this one, and I still can't find it. :confused1:
> 
> Taylorbaby, inquiring minds need to know what happened to precipitate this accusation. They sound like very odd people...


back story to what one!!



dougal22 said:


> I would have paid double for my Siamese and Oriental kittens. All 3 of them have brought me so much joy and love. I have the utmost respect for breeders and believe they make very little or no money from what they're doing, well, reputable ones don't!! It's definitely a labour of love
> Please don't let that moron spoil your day Taylorbaby
> ps - what breed are your kittens? any pics?


will post pics soo as I can, check the link in my signiture!

One of my 'proudest' moments is having someone driver 350miles from the other end of the country just because they really loved the way I breed and really wanted one of my kittens, I even said to them 'arent there any closer to you!' they said 'no we want one of yours'  They were really nice people to and have sent me pics everyday for the past 4 weeks 

Ive told people not to give me a deposit as they arent 100% to go away and think about it! I know alot of breeders would talk them into it, but thats not me, Im not a sales person, Im just a person who loves cats and wants them to have a person who says '100% that the kitten for me yippee!'

I have to say that Im not a business, I dont view people as customers, I view them as, (maybe sadly?) Friends to be who are cat lovers, I still speak to All the people who have kittens from me, whether it be a text every day week or a odd email, or popping over for chats.

IVe lost alot of money and on my last litter Im £750 (and counting) 'over' the amount that the kittens will sell for and I have 7 weeks to go until they can leave home. All my kittens and cats are indoor pets, I try my best to raise family pets and am really proud when I get great feedback and a bottle of champers, gift baskets and beautifully written cards from people who have a kitten from me and have been really happy and gone out of their way to buy me a gift (you can prob tell I cry alot when they leave or I get given something!) and thats the best thing I can ask for really!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Taylorbaby stick with it and in the long term (not so long actually) you will be fine. We all have setbacks, the important thing is how you work through them. £750 down, I'm not surprised and neither should anyone else be. People think I'm joking when I say you need to be able to lose at least £1500 to breed a litter of kittens. Don't compare yourself with people who are selling 'crossbreeds' for less. You only know what they are asking, not what they're getting for those kittens. They could be agreeing to take £50 for all you know, they'll never admit it.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> back story to what one!!


The calling you drunk thing. How on _Earth _does that come out in the middle of a normal conversation between a breeder and a potential kitten buyer? It just seems so bizarre of them that I'm curious about how the conversation went to get to that point, that's all.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Hi Aurelia, 

This is what the bottom of my garden looks like,I will take some pics of the rest when the weather improves,its been raining quite a bit.

But it defianately gives you an idea how dedicated I am to what I do.:thumbup:


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