# I need help !



## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi 

I am a newbie and have written quite a long help list for my doggie problems in the introductions forum.

If anyone has time can you have a quick peek and pass on any advice please?:


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Hi yes you do! 
There's so many things going on with your dogs that it can seem very overwelming. Without seeing you personally it's hard to give an accurate opinion. However having said that one thing that is clear is, if a dog misbehaves on leash it's because it lacks respect for it's handler. This is not to say that your dogs don't love you but love and leader ship are two different things. 
There are so many questions that I usually ask a client before I can offer the right advice it's impossible for me to really deliver one. Yes you'll here posts saying it's lack of leadership, and they'd be correct too. However it's a short ended statement that requires alot more explaination. 

I'm going to copy a piece off my Website and post it to you. It may take me a couple of days so bare with me. 

Don't worry though all your problems can be sorted out with a little determination and commitment.


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## Gemma83 (Mar 5, 2008)

Hi, I took a look at your other thread, 

Mines the same with guests, we have been working on crate trainning since day one with him, and he quite happily settles down there (after we manage to get him to stop barking) - we never close the door on him though - he's free to walk in and out. 

I think it is important to speak to guests and explain that they just need to egnore the god until he stops barking/ jumping. That really seems to work with archie, and when hes calmer we get the guest to give him a treat, he realises then that they are not a theat and they are welcome. But we only do that when hes calm.

I would speak to your neigbour and explain that you are trying to do something about the barking and it really isn't helping what he is currently doing, I'm sure it just gets them more upset. We are currently using the pet corrector spray (you can get it from pet shops - its just air in a spray can that makes a noise) and say quiet in a stern voice, once he stops barking I then say good quiet in a much brighter happier voice, its working in the house and garden as ours hates anyone walking past - this is a real problem for us as we live next to a church and school! 

Don't know if any of that can help you, and good luck!


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks everyone, l don't feel so lost now l am here. Just watched dog borstal and saw a dog aggressive chocolate lab doused in water when he lunged at another dog. Has anyone tried this? Previously one owner was advised to shake a bottle of pebbles to startle the dog.
Does anyone think l should try these on my mutts? I don't want to make them nervous of me. Also should l walk them separately at the moment? I have thought of that but l would spend half the morning walking and l would have to get them together sometime.

Thanks Karen in advance for sending me some info. One person mentioned that if l have dog insurance that l could be put in touch with a behavourist. I do have insurance on all 3 of them thank goodness. Just paid £377 on my GSD as l managed to get him to the vets in time before his gut twisted. I have to pay the first £105 excess as he is 12. Anyway l'm rambling on again. i have stacks of books on dogs and l have just read Cesar Milan How to be pack leader but still not absorbing the message. I do realise though that l am the problem and not the mutts so thats a start.

got to dash now and read through this forum. I will try and add some pictures to go with my posts. ttfn Kittysoo.


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

PS Gemma - l will get my hubby to look out for the pet correcter spray. I will try anything as l am completely embarrassed about my lack of control. I have always related to dogs more so than people but l admit to humanising them which is not fair on them. Schmoo was my 50th birthday present from my hubby and he is the first little dog l have had and he is just so cute. I just look at him and it's like seeing a new baby - l just melt!


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Hi yes pet corrector is very good but not on timid dogs. It's good for hightened behaviour like aggression and over excitement. 
The dog borstal is pant's in my opinion. Water will have very little effect on an aggressive dog unless you can catch it the second it's attention is focused on the object of it's aggression. The pebbles are a sound distraction much like the clicker and the discs. 
Cesar millan uses the tsst sound and it has the same result. His books are very good as is his program( if you can get around the american production). 
What the introduction of sound does is make the dog have an aversion reaction to what ever stimuli you have placed before it. 
Walking your dogs individually will help you control any situation better, however by walking your dogs in a pack you can effect all your dogs at once and rehabilitate as a pack. 
The key is to rebalance the roles within the pack structure. Yes you love your dogs but LOve isn't the number one thing on their list. they need structure, consistance and rules. 
Exercise is major but the right type of walk is key to a balanced pack. That'snot happening here. 
Im my opinion it's the structure within the house that plays a key role in mastering the outdoors leadership role. An owner can't expect to have a total following pack if inside the "den" the dogs get away with everything.


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

I have removed this post due to unpleasant posts in another thread.


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

The above post is a work plan i give to my clients, who are experiencing leadership problems. Like I said before it's hard to give an accurate rehabilitation program without seeing the client and dogs. But the previous post is something I would advocate to all owners experiencing behavioural problems. It really can work wonders. Understand your dog Understand the problems. Lack of canine understanding creates behavioral issues. What these dogs are doing is acting natural because of the role we've allocated them. It is my opinion that to rebalance the role inside the house first will have a knock on effect. Remember they want you to lead them, they need you to lead them. If we are to make them truly happy then that's what we must do.


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## Gemma83 (Mar 5, 2008)

kittysoo said:


> Previously one owner was advised to shake a bottle of pebbles to startle the dog.QUOTE]
> 
> We tried that 1st with archie, bad idea as he barked at the bottle, also couldn't leave the bottle to hand as wherever we left it he would find it, and try and kill it or just bark at it.
> 
> ...


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks Karen and Gemma for the info.

Karen l must be your worst nightmare of a dogowner. Rule no 1 - dont let them on your bed, furniture!

Not only are the little ones allowed on my bed they actually sleep in it with us! If l had a big enenough bed l am sure my GSD would be up there too! eek

OK - I can see where l am going wrong and basically it was right from the word go. My husband likes the bedroom windows wide open, no matter what the weather, plus it was freezing when l got both pups. It's going to be tough but tonight they are on the floor in my dear departed Lucys old bed. She was a GSD X so it is big enough for both of them. They can lie next to Seiger on my side as its more protected.

Must get ready for work but will be back later. Thanks again - l''l definatly keep in touch.


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi ladies

Just letting you know what l have done today.

1/ l walked the 3 dogs separately and did some recall and sits with them. In fact before they each got out for a walk,l decided that they would have to be calm and sit for me to put the leads on. Schmoo was the hardest. He knows how to sit but he doesn't like to sit and have the halti put on him. Scamper also took one look at the halti and did a runner but l encouraged him to come back. I also made them wait back till l opened the door and went out and then called them out. I did this on the way back as well.

2/. When the little ones jumped up for attention l pushed them down and said off! It was hard.

3/. When l was sitting at my computer and they wanted to jump up on my knee. I ignored them. A minute later l called them to me and picked them up - so it was sort of on my terms.

Tonight is the real test. Weather is horrible, windy and cold. I have already told my hubby that he is not to complain if they play up as that will just encourage them to carry on. He thinks l wont be able to resist the whining but l have a plan. I am going to bed half an hour before he does and he can put the dogs on the floor. Hopefully l will be asleep before the crying begins!!!

Will let you know how it goes tomorrow x Kittysoo


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Just an update on last night.

Things didn't go all to plan when hubby went to bed before me!
Anyway put both pups on their bed and switched the light out. Schmoo was very good and took to it straight away but Scamper whimpered for about 5 minutes. I sneaked a peak after it went quiet and could just pick up a white glow in the dark curled up.

Poor Seiger though! He lay on the laminate floor as the each pup chose a bed for themselves. Will make sure the smaller beds are in the bedroom tonight so he can have some comfort.

The problem arose when l needed the loo. All 3 woke up and headed out the door. I just managed to grab Scamper before he deposited a puddle on the floor. Put all 3 outside and then spent 5 minutes in prayer hoping that they would'nt bark! It was 4am in the morning. Thankfully all quiet and back to bed for another 5 minutes of whimpering from Scamper and then sleep.

This morning though Scamper weed on the bedroom floor before we managed to get up so not good start to the day.

I will keep this up though l must admit l do miss them cuddling up to me like one pack. It always felt like we were bonding.

Finally when l got up this morning Scamper the baby of the family wouldn't come to me first thing. Don't know if he was sulking or just lazy! Probably lazy as dogs think in the now!

Anyway got to go. x Kittysoo


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi Kittysoo - I have been following your thread and read the post on re balancing the pack by Karen with interest too. I think we break just about every rule  anyway just to let you know that you and your dogs are not alone as Tootsie has slept on the floor in her own bed for the last 2 nights. Only problem is that she gets me up early on a morning though but I think it is when the heating comes on so I am going to move the timer on a bit to see if that works. I did some sit, stay and come with Toots last night but it started to sleet and rain so we had to do a mad dash for home  keep with it and I hope you see some inprovement soon. It does feel a bit hard on them though when they are so cute but Im sure it will be worth it in the end.

All the best tootsiesmum


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks Tootsie Mum

It's nice to know that l am not the only one going through it. I know that sounds bad but when l was in labour, l managed to make myself feel better thinking that somewhere in the world, some other poor moo was going through the same thing - so l did'nt feel so alone!!!!

I feel that l have let down all my mutts by not being a proper pack leader but we humans are a sucker for big eyes and cute noses!

Anyway last night once l switched the light out all went quiet. I sneaked a peak and Seiger was in his own bed, Schmoo and Scamper were curled up in the little bed together - so looks like that problem is solved. Thanks Karen - l owe you one.

The only thing is unfortunatly l managed to sneak out to the loo without letting them out but straight after hubby went too and managed to let all 3 out of the room. He ended up letting them all out and Scamper barked! Could have throttled dear husband for that. 

Next morning at 7am - Scamper started whining to go out, let my hubby do that in revenge for last night but he was not quick enough - one wee and one poo later and loads of 
moaning about how the dogs are mine bla de bla !!!!! 

Tomorrow new regime. I will get up and do it - l am not a very early riser - 8 am sounds about normal as l work in the afternoon. Also l was up late reading (yes a dog book!). Tonight early to bed and all that! I have also decided to take over the feeding of the dogs as well. I am going to really throw myself into this leadership thingy.

Bye the way how old is Tootsie? Do you have any problems with her? I think this is a great forum. I have learned more in the last couple of days than l have in the last 10 years on my own.

One more question for Karen or anyone else who knows what to do? 
Scamper (Jack Russell)was born early November last year. He has only ever been with his litter mates and Mum and Mums owners. He has only been out in the garden in a run for a couple of hours a day. I have found him to be very agrophobic. 

As soon as l start to get ready for the walk he literally runs away as quick as he can get! When l have taken him out he drags behind. When l let him off the lead in a safe place he seems to relax and actually runs around like a normal mutt. Possibly he has a lead and halti phobia actually!

Anyway my vet says that l should'nt take him out and that one day he will wonder why the other dogs are excited about going out and want to go! I think by that time he will be afraid of people, dogs and anything else? Any advice anyone?


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Hi I know it's hard. They give you that look which melts the heart and brings on guilt. Little buggers lol! 

The reason dogs can urinate like that is 
1. they get woken and need the toilet!
2. They dislike being knocked of the top spot and urinate to make their territory. ( This is my Den how dare you not let me up there)

So what to do: 

1. put them downstairs where they won't get disturbed, remember they have plently of company in each other.
2. carry on with them in the bedroom and don't get up for a pee.... Difficult though this one 
Welldone though you seem to have got them done without too much of a problem. 

I know how you feel when you say you miss their cuddles and feel like your missing out on the pack bonding. It's hard but try to look at it this way

Cuddles are a human thing. Yes dogs like them but it's not top of the list for them. Being on the bed isn't bonding in their minds. They just see it as rack elevation and they like the warmth!

Really I have to say that dogs shouldn't be in the bedroom atall. Infact they shouldn't be upstairs atall, especially while your re balancing the pack structure. You'll get much quicker results if you limit their access to the whole house. 

This program if followed to the letter will re construct the pack structure within two to three weeks. Then you'll be amazed at the difference in you dogs. 

When this is done you can re introduce some things. 

It's about your dog asking you if you don't mind if it gets up. By controlling your dogs actions you have the upper hand. The dog looks to you to see what you want it to do. This then can transfere into the outside world. 

Three weeks time if you apply all the program correctly and you'll see problems fade. They'll look put out at times, sulky and sad. However they are just getting used to the new way, and boy they'll love you ten times more in the end. Don't pander to their sulks ignore them and they will soon come round. 

Another I'd suggest is making your dogs do things just for the sake of it... Like getting on their beds sitting staying ect. You can reward them for doing these things but don't give titbits all the time. Give affection too and sometimes nothing atall. This is how dogs view this: 
1. I do I get treat... yey!
2. I do I get treat or affection...yey!
3. I do I don't get treat or affection but the possibility is there that I might because mums in charge So I do what I'm told!
Good luck your doing great you'll be the alpha leader in no time.


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks Karen

You are doing wonders for my confidence as well! I feel l have achieved something by just getting them off the bed.

If l do make them stay downstairs the only room that l can put them in is the sitting room as the cats like to come and go through the kitchen catflap, along the hall and upstairs.

If they were in there l am sure that they would spend the night on the sofa and chairs. Apart from covering them with dining table chairs every night to stop them getting up, l won't know be able to stop them.

Should l just let them sleep where they want for now in the sitting room - (l have a dog gate over the door by the way) and work on keeping them off the sofas during the day?

Tonight they *will* be sleeping downstairs. It will definatley be hard for Seiger as he is 12 and has spent his life with full access to the house. He is getting a bit frailer now to. Mind you he does like to be near the pups.

Also l am about to inform dear hubby that the baby gates to the cat room is going back on the stairs so that they don't get access to upstairs. The cats will be able to jump over it to have a place of safety.

The poor dogs won't know whats going on but its for the best l know. 

About making them do other things. I do do sits and recall every now and then during the day and give them a treat, but you are right - Schmoo has become very food orientated. 
He will not sit to have his halti put on for his walks unless he sees me put my hand in my pocket. He and Scamper as well really hate the halti but when l have tried not using it he chokes himself and coughs!

PS One of my friends who has moved to Devon used to have 2 GSD who were never allowed to place a foot on the stairs. She had wooden stairs. She never had baby gates or dog gates. They slept in the kitchen ( it was a massive old house and that room was the hubb of the house) and was'nt even allowed in the sitting room. I used to think that she was quite cruel but actually her dogs were the best behaved dogs l had ever met!


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Scamper needs socialised in my opinion. I don't believe in closeting dogs because of their insecturities. Some people say I'm mean but it's not natural for a dog to be scared of the out doors. Following your vets advice won't solve the problem and IMO will compound it. 

If he's fine off lead then he sees the leash as a control device..which it is! 
He doesn't like it and want's to do his own thing. But that's not good enough. the pack re structuring inside the house will help over come this. Also I suggest you keep moving. Sounds silly but when we turn and show atention to them when they are in a timid state we empower and cement their behaviour. So try to keep moving forward if he drops down then turn back lift his back end up and try to get him on his front paws. once his done this stand him up and move off again. It's a case of conditioning the mind to stay on all fours. Try titbits that might work too, again follow the rule of might get one might not. You want your dog doing this for you not for the treat. 

Try running with him in spurts then stopping and running off again. To get his mind thinking different. Dogs tend to have difficulty thinking of more than one thing at atime. So keep moving forward ,use titbits to encourage forward movement.

The walks very important too. How we walk with our dogs effects their behaviour.

I suggest:

You sit with the lead and call him over give him a titbit and slide the leash on. let him wander off for a while then recall him. pick up the leash and move to the door. make him sit calmly by the door. Don't move outside until he is. Open the door and keeping him behind you step outside leading him behind you, don't look at him though. when outside make him sit again. give him calm affection or titbit then move off. Keep him at your side. Although he's timid i wouldn't let him rule the walk so don't let him get infront. don't let him wander ,sniff or make any choices at the moment. Move quickly as you can engaging his attention. This might work it's hard to say not seeing him. Remember if you expect him to behave in a certain way he will. You and your dog need to leave the past behind to move foward.


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

It's hard to keep them off when your not there once they have already been aload up. So it's not ideal to leave them where they can choose to do so, however you are keeping them downstairs and off your bed so it's much better than before. If they jump down when they see you at least there's a level of respect coming though. Ideally beds on floor in kitchen but if that can't be done then you have too work with what you have. It's a possibility they may become distructive in annoyance so becarefull what you leave lying around. better safe than sorry.
You really are doing well. And I bet your friends GSD were very happy dogs because of their rules and boundries.


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## Gemma83 (Mar 5, 2008)

tootsiesmum said:


> Hi Kittysoo - I have been following your thread and read the post on re balancing the pack by Karen with interest too. I think we break just about every rule  anyway just to let you know that you and your dogs are not alone as Tootsie has slept on the floor in her own bed for the last 2 nights. Only problem is that she gets me up early on a morning though but I think it is when the heating comes on so I am going to move the timer on a bit to see if that works. I did some sit, stay and come with Toots last night but it started to sleet and rain so we had to do a mad dash for home  keep with it and I hope you see some inprovement soon. It does feel a bit hard on them though when they are so cute but Im sure it will be worth it in the end.
> 
> All the best tootsiesmum


That is so right about breaking the rules, we were told at puppy class to try and not pick and and carry the puppy to much, but sometimes when I walk mine around the streets there is broken glass on the ground, theres no way I want my pup to get hurt so I carry him over it, he dosn't mind it and always gives me kisses (whether I want them or not!). I think its all about finding the way that works for you, I have never met two animals (of any type including humans) that had the same personaitly and i think that easily gets forgotten when reading books and trainning tips. I think this forum is great as you get ideas of what to try, but its always important to not get dishartend that just because something works for everyone else it dosn't for you and your pooch!

Sounds like your trying really hard, and I wish you best of luck with your trainning, its funny how one thing gets better and another thing goes down hill or a new problem starts. But in a strange way thats kind of the fun of it all!


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi Gemma
How old is your lovely pup? Do you have any little niggles?

Only an hour to go and then bedtime! I have tidyed up the sitting room and put everything out of reach ( well l hope l have - time will tell). I have just put their beds downstairs and they have been fine so far wandering about having a little sniff. Seiger is actually having a little dognap as l type.

I will let you know know tomorrow how it goes. It could be a long long night!!!!


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Update on last night!

Put all 3 dogs in the sitting room, went to bed and read for half an hour (dog book).

Dear hubby - pessimist that he is said - wait for the howling and scratching at the gate. Well l waited and absolutely nothing.

When l got up in the night l heard Seiger (heavy paws) move closer to the gate but nothing. They were quiet all night and the only thing that set them off was at 6-45am the dogs next door had a good old barking session in their garden.

After l had let them out l noticed that one of them probably Scamper weed by the patio door and it was a lot , so l think that he had only done this in the morning after a full bladder. Also Seiger (suprisingly) did a poo on my laminate flooor. Hubby says it is a protest poo for being kicked out of the bedroom.

All in all l would say it was an amazing success. Hopefully it was'nt a fluke but I am keeping them and future dogs downstairs from now on. Thank you Karen, l would'nt have even tried to do this ever.

Today l am giving the stair carpet the brush of its lifetime and then fitting the baby gate at the bottom. That will stop them getting upstairs but allow the cats to jump over to safety. It will also stop them trying to eat hubbys face flannel (YUK).

I have been on my first walk of the day and decided to be tough with Scamper. I was'nt having any of his avoidance tactics and so l saddled him up with the rest (gave them a titbit once they were done) and off we went. 

He did drag behind but l just kept encouraging him until we got to the bit where l let them off the leash. He played around quite happily so l think it is all to do with the lead and halti and not agrophobia.

When it was time to pop them back on their leads, l decided not to connect Scampers halti. Instead of dragging behind he then almost took the lead over Schmoo. He kept pulling to the side and leaning that way so l guess he hates the halti and does want to do his own thing - right again Karen.

I have already changed the leads over for the next walk. I will still keep Seiger on one side on his own as he was forever tripping over Schmoo. He walks really well until we meet another dog.

I have one of those hands free leads that you can put round your waist and let the dog just follow on. I have found that if l twist it round to the back left side and attach Schmoo to it - he walks quite well on his own at my side, so he is going to go on that. 

I will have Scamper on my left on a lead so l can tweak him and get him to walk to heal. Hopefully that will work.

Of course my ever faithful and unfashionable bum bag is always with me. I found those little treat bags to be quite usless. I carry poo bags, my mobil phone (in case of emergency) and a bag full of treats. Today l had chopped up chicken and it actually saved me from a confrontation!

One of the village hunter ladies was cycling up towards me. She would have got to me before l could have got all 3 on a lead. Scamper gave a little warning bark when he spotted her but l just called all 3 to me and waved a piece of chicken under their noses. All 3 turned round when she cycled past and said hello but they were quickly back to seeing what was in my hand. I gave them all a piece and praised them up. It was a total sucess and l felt quite pround that they were not going to be the talk of the village.

Anyway l've raved on yet again! Good job this is'nt a talking forum as no one would get a word in edgeways!!! I hope l am not boring you all by the way- it's just that l am making major changes and trying to be pack leader and the advice l am getting is really helping.

Karen are you a proffessional behavourist? You really sound like you know your stuff. Have you dogs of your own?

Anyway got to go again. Hubby says that l am either working with the dogs or on this forum. What he means is he is running out of socks and he might have to use the washing machine!!!! ttfn xxx Kitty


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

I Kittysoo - hope last night went well 

Did I just read that right - have you just had a baby too? wow you do have your plate full and congratulations 

Well Tootsie is still in my bedroom as I can not set my house alarm while she is downstairs but she is in her own bed and she isnt putting up much of a fight on that one. As for not coming up onto the furniture - well if looks could kill I wouldnt be here right now  and if she decides to take herself upstairs on her own I call her back. 

I am taking her on an organised dog walk tomorrow at the beach with her pet sitters ( I go away a bit with work so she goes to stay with a pet sitter whilst I am away ) I am going to be trying out her new cage in the car  so wish me luck. 

Im the same with carrying Gemma when there are broken bottles lying around. When we go on longer walks in the summer Tootsie actually plonks her bum down when she is tired so I have to pick her up  I think I have a lot of work to do - its amazing how many things you look at a bit differently when ou read up on their behaviour a bit.

Have a lovely weekend everybody 

edited to add - think we cross posted Kittysoo - glad it is all going well


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Tootsies Mum you made me chuckle. The only babies l have are fur babies! lol. Dear hubby is 65 and l have just turned 50! I have become a grandmother though as little George was born 7 and a half weeks premature weighing in at 2lbs 13oz! He never had to have oxygen and is now 2months old and weighs over 6lb. He seems to gain weight as easy as l do. My other grandchild is due the end of June so a good year for me! We seem to have been waiting forever and then 2 on the way.

As l am on now l'll update again. Second walk was also brilliant. I did as l said l would and all 3 walked well. Scamper still does'nt want to go out which is worrying but l am working on that one but this time after an initial drag out of the door and front garden(granted it started to rain) he was fine and walked by my side. He did try to pull me a little bit but after years of holding back GSDs it's nothing. I will work on that too. The only thing was Scamper and Schmoo kept swapping which side they wanted to be on. I think they took turns trying to be beside me.

Dear hubby or DH for short has made some alterations to the baby gate so that it cuts a little of the hall off and then the stairs are on the right. It looks much better. and gives the cats a chance to sit and work out the best way out. It also means that Scamper can't reach by bears that l have on a little homemade settle. It's no joke to see him dragging my boyd bears about!

All 3 have made a mad dash to get through the gate when it is opened but not succeeded. I can now make my upstairs a dog fur free zone!

I have also bought some pet corrector spray. I onlyu live in a liitle semi but it backs onto fields and the farmer has just put sheep in there today. Scamper decided to have a bark and l gave him a blast of noise and it pulled him up. He did it 3 times and then got bored so round 1 to me l think.

It's so nice that you have dog sitters for Tootsie. I think they are a much better option that kennels. I have never put a dog in a kennel ever - but there again l have never had a proper holiday since l have kept animals!


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

Whoops  I think I must have read your post the wrong way. Grandchildren are even better anyway - you can give them back and spoil them as much as you like 

Sounds like your dogs are coming along nicely, I keep forgetting and picking Tootsie up and letting her on the sofa  must remember. I gave her a bath this afternoon so I have changed my avatar to reflect how she looks when she is clean - only lasted 5 minutes though and she had a dog chew all over her mane  On our walk tonight we did halt, sit and stay then I walked 10 paces with my back to her and she stayed put! it is definately starting to click with her. I had to pick her up though as a couple of springers were off lead and running around like mad enjoying themselves. They were'nt bothered with her but I was worried that she might run off so put her back on her lead and carried her for a bit 

Hope tonight goes well - will update tomorrow on how we get on on our organised dog walk. Toots goes to a dog sitter as I really dont think she would get on well in kennels - costs a fortune but its only a few nights a month. We go camping in the summer so she can come with us, have'nt been abroad in years and dont miss it - just pray for good weather


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hope the dog walk went ok. It rained so much over night that all the fields around here were badly flooded. Hope you did'nt have to go countryside way? How many dogs were on the walk and was Tootsie ok with them?

Sounds like she is quite good with her training. I know what you mean about letting them up on the furniture. When l lay on the sofa this afternoon watching the motor racing, l am afraid that l did let them go to sleep on me! Part of me knows l should'nt let it happen and part of me loves it that they want to snuggle up to me. Yes Karen l know it is rack elevation and cold - but they look so cute!

Last night did not go as planned. DH watched a movie but l decided to go on my computer so l suppose by the time it was bedtime all 3 dogs had seen little of me and also had been sleeping most of the evening.

I did go down to settle them down but after a few minutes they started to bark. Now l would have been quite happy to let it go on as surely going down to them made their barking pay off. The bark - owners come running and so forth. Unfortunatelly DH got very agitated though about next door neighbour as he is a complete moron and has been moaning a lot about my mutts barking on a Sunday when l visit my Dad. 

Hubby told him that so long as it was not after 11pm he did'nt have a leg to stand on. Now he is not speaking to us - the good thing about it is l don't have to put up with his pervy comments everytime l see him. (Actually that is exactly what l told him as well - so that might also explain why he is picking us up about the dogs!) Mind you l have put up with his comments for almost 20 years so all l say is - girl power or in my case - menopausal power!!!

Getting back to last night - the mutts decided to kick off just as we were hitting 11pm. l did'nt go right down the stairs just called from the top to say No enough be quiet and then went back to bed. Realised that it was Schmoo setting the others off so the next time l went down i called Schmoo then said No etc. He did actually stop and then all 3 settled down!

This morning it was no good - l had drunk loads of orange juice and like the orange - l was bursting. I just could'nt hang on any longer and then DH went after me. That was it - all 3 were awake and wanting out. I suppose it was quite light. I put them out - got them back in and decided to go back to bed but by then they definately wanted company. I was lucky as DH got up  and l ended up going back to sleep. 

I did feel very guilty though and having thought about it - they are just like babies and children and l owe it to them as their owner (mum) to look out for them. As DH says he is the cat person and l am the dog person. It's just l also like sleep.

I think the walks are going a bit better. Met 2 people l knew walking towards - agin did not have time to put all 3 back on leads without having a complete breakdown. The 2 little ones did bark and run towards them along with Seiger trying to keep up - l called them all to me and they trotted back but trotted off again. They were not aggressive so that is a good thing but l was not impressed that even though they knew l had chicken, they really wanted to investigate these people. When they drew level with me we all had a little chat and the dogs just mingled around us. I definately need to work on the recall and try and find somewhere where l can come across other people and mutts as the occassional meetings are too few and far between. Again if they looked on me as pack leader they would have obeyed me instantly. I did fleetingly think of turning round and running to make them follow me but l really need them to meet people. We have been isolated long enough.

I'm off now but before l go l just need to remind you that DH stands for Dear Husband and not Dick Head as my 27 year old uncouth daughter thought l had said. He may be a pain in the rear end at times but l would'nt go that far with him. ttfn xxx Kittysoo


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

do you go on MSN Kittysoo? DH is one of the abbreviations on there  love the explaniation from your DD 

Well the walk was erm....... eventfull  it was a record turn out - over 25 dogs plus owners  Tootsie was the only small dog so I hung back and didnt let her off lead straight away. It was on a beach and the rain stayed off but it was very windy. Anyway I let Toots off lead and she just played around me and we were playing with her ball and she decided to do her business. A few big dogs decided to 'play' but they were pouncing on her and as she is so little I am always worried about breaking bones. I was just shouting get them off her and managed to get in and pick her up - so I ended up carrying her after that as she was shaking. She did enjoy it and in future I will be more careful. This always happens when we go to the beach - I think It is because she is so small that the bigger dogs pick on her . It was lovely to see so many dogs enjoying their selves though and I met so many lovely people.
The other first today was her cage in the car - she still cryed in it but I felt safer having her in a cage in the car. The problem isnt the cage - she just doesnt like being apart from me in the car. She is better on straight roads but as soon as I go round a corner or roundabout she starts whining.
I have been really strong today and not let her up on the furniture but she did get carried a lot today so not so good there.
Im sure you will get there with the new night time routine when they realise who is boss  It will pay off in the end.
We are going to meet a new petcarer tomorrow as Tootsies usual carer is busy over Easter weekend and I am going away. Im sure she will be fine with him but she gets over exited in new surroundings - she decided to do a pee when she met the last one  
Good luck tonight


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

I would have been scared stiff that my dogs would start something if l had been on the beach. Schmoo is a real scaredy cat and Scamper has all the makings of being a dominent dog, whereas Seiger has just had a lifetime of playing with my late Lucy and they must have looked very intimidating to other dogs. It will be hard to change Seiger now but l am working on it. I would love to be able to walk with other dog walkers and see mutts just playing around.

I knw what you mean about Tootsie being small enough to break bones, When Seiger plays to rough with Scamper all l hear is screaching and yapping. He warns Seiger that he has been hurt and to be more gentle but the big beastie boy only knows one way to play and that is GS way!

Last night was brilliant not a peep out of them all night but Seiger barked at 6-15 this morning - l think that is when my neighbour went to work. I got up and after their ablutions we all crashed out on the sofa. Not the best start but l was too tired too care at that time of the morning!

This morning l was quite pleased as usually the moment l get the leads off the hooks, Scamper does a runner. Not today though - he stayed in the hall and after a bit of coaxing he came to over to me so that l could put the lead on. He is now enjoying his walks but does like to be in front so will definately have to work on that. I dread to think what sort of dog he would have turned out if l had taken the vets advice and kept him in! Probably one of those snappy Jack Russells we all have heard about.

You will never guess what l have just been offered? Well of course you won't.

When l got Scamper he was almost 15 weeks old. He had a brother that was promised to a groom that had been putting off collecting him. I said that if he did'nt want him in the next 24 hours l would take the brother too. Anyway by all accounts he still wanted him. Now it seems that he can't cope and has handed the pup back. She wants to know if l still want him! DH says no and l know it is the right decision. I would be completely out of my depth. I also feel a bit moree vindicated that all the problems with him were not entirely my fault. These poor pups were not introduced to anything until they were too old. I have a feeling that she will keep the pup herself. She can certainly afford too and by the looks of it she likes to go out with horses rather than dogs so they will just run around in the paddock. The boys Mum was actually very friendly.

Anyway got to go hope Tootsie likes her new carer. It is piece of mind when you know that they are safe and cared for. ttfn xxx Kittysoo


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Hello ladies. Your both doing really well. It is hard not to give in to them so don't beat yourself up over it. As long as you remain consistent 90% of the time then you'll see a progressive improvement. 
Yes I am a Dog behaviourist and rehabilitation specialist. I specialise in dog aggression which I find is almost always liked to miscommunication between human and dog. Leading to the balance of the pack being shoved out of keel.
I'm a firm believer that dogs come into our lives for a reason, and that reason is usually to show us our weaknesses and allow us to learn from them. I firmly believe that dogs mirror humans and if we look closley we can not only learn how to build an amazing relationship with our dogs but also enrich our human lives with strength and determination. 
 Go me and my new age speach!
I do have dogs, A Boerboel called Bruce and a "mute" called Louis. both are second hand dogs. Bruce ended up back at his breeders because his owners were emigratting. Louis came from the dogs home and was almost ferral. I don't like the term rescue, I feel it has a pity emotion attached. To enter into ownership of a dog feeling pity shows the dog weakness and the relationship is started on the wrong foot. 
My dogs aren't pertect...YET!  
Buce had very bad dog aggression when I got him five months ago and louis well what can i say is a mirror image of my son... " mental" He has energy that never runs out but given his start and the fact that he's at that awkward under one stage he's a good dog. I see him as a teenager, not sure of his path so trying every route possible. I always say it takes two years of hard work to get a good dog!!! 

Bruce came to me a lovely dog but never the less a dominant natured one. I gave him an inch and he took a mile,, yes I should have known better because I did! 
His dog aggression got worse so enough being enough through research I put into place the pack restructuring plan. It was hard and I detoured from time to time, through my own weakness. Eventually I demoted him and he's great. His bed is in the Kitchen as is louis. They can get on on the sofa and even the bed. However they only can do this when invited and because of the difference in behaviour I keep it to a minimun. They just except it and they don't mind know infact it's almost like Bruce breathed a huge si at jhaving the alphs role taken of his shoulders. They are more eager to please and generally well behaved. I have introduced this program to my clients and the rehabilitation time has halved. I nkow if you stick to this program the same will happen for you and your dogs.


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks Karen for your encouragement and telling us about your own experiencences.

When you said that dogs can be a mirror image of ourselves, it was an epipany moment for me.

To sum up all the behaviour of my pack in one - would be afraid of going out, scared of anything new, keeping others away from the pack. This is me to a T. I must be passing it on to them. To be honest l find walking the dogs stressful as l am always on the look out for trouble ( even though we hardly bump into a soul) - l must be passing this tension through to the dogs.. 

When l moved into this village nearly 20 years ago, l gradually became more isolated. I did'nt drive and always found money a struggle. l ended up with only a couple of real friends and the rest were more like aqaintances. I became almost happy if the children came home and stayed in. I loved weekends as that was when everyone was together. When they were away, l felt that l had lost control. Eventually l was diagnosed with depression and my daughter and l were both diagnosed with OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). My sister summed it up to me that l would drop the drawbridge when we were all home!

Anyway l can see that l have to be stronger and more open to things myself or the dogs will never move forward. They are carrying on physically what l feel mentally.

Onto happier things - last night the dogs slept most of the evening and yet they went to bed and did'nt make a sound till 6-15am. I definatly think that my next door neighbour goes out that time. DH got up today, as we have decided to take it in turns for the moment. I think that the boys have finally got the message!

Well l have a lot of thinking to do today and plan a few things out. This scaredy cat is going to reinvent her 9 lives into positive ones - justy have to work out how!

Thanks Karen will be back later or tomorrow xxx Kittysoo


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

ps - you are not Karen Pryor are you?


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

No Karen Beattie! 

I'm sat here laughing at your last post... sounds like me

I have to make a real effort at times and often get it wrong with owners who don't understand my methods. I guess I'm so passionate about dogs being understood that I find it hard when people humanise them too much. They get shirty with me because they often don't like looking that deeply at themselves. 

I aplaud you for recognising these important aspects. It takes a strong person to see them and an even stronger one to set about changing them. You've seen such an improvement with your dogs and it will keep on improving. You recognise how much people can infuence their dogs behaviour and that's the key. It's that recognition that will make all the difference. You sound like a determined lady. Know that your dogs came to you to teach you lessons and to help you grow Inturn you can provide them with the best life possible. 

You are both doing great. Don't worry when things go wrong because your dog will read this. Only concentrate on the positive things that happen that way your dog will move on quickly. 

Speaking of wrongs... my louis had a off day today! Stole my purse today and strew the contents all over the paddock! Bugger


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Morning Karen

I thought l had better check in case you were Karen Pryor as its like having a conversation with Cesar Milan. It just popped into my head. Anyway it's lovely having you helping me and Tootsies Mum as l know l would still be having major problems.

Hope Louis did'nt rip any money up? I once put £10 on a table years ago and then wondered what my dogs were ripping up!!!!! My husband said that you can get the money back (which l didn't by the way) but l wish l had framed the torn pieces as a reminder to just what dogs can do if you don't put things away.

I have recently lost 3 pairs of shoes to Schmoo who was teething. All my own fault though - l should have put them away!.

You must put some pictures of your dogs on here. I am useless with computers but l will tryto add mine.

Last nigh another quiet night. They woke at 6-00pm but another little pile of poo from Scamper. I think once Seiger wakes him up he just gets on with it before l can get downstairs.

Thanks so much Karen. Even DH is amazed that they have managed to settle so quickly. He thought they would howl all night and we would have to give in but now its brilliant. We can also stretch out in bed with out having to be careful that we don't squash a pup!

This morning Scamper even showed some enthusiasm for going out though he started trembling again when he spotted the lead. 

We all trotted off and l suddenly realised that my body language was giving out the wrong signals. I was still very tired and slouching so l imagined that l was Cesar Milan and immediatley perked up and strode forward. I supose l should really show enthusiasm for the walk!

When l was on the return journey l actually bumped into a lady with children - one on her bike. I was pleased that neither pup made any sound at all or pulling on the lead. It was a very good experience for the little ones. Mind you they never tried to touch or talk to the dogs.

Schmoo is afraid of his own shadow when he is put. I occasionally do bump into a sweet old man who likes to tend his allotment but whenever he tries to give Schmoo a treat he is so scared that he backs off. The poor man can't bend down for the time it would take for Schmoo to think "l might take the food." Is there anything l can do to speed things up? I am afraid that Schmoo is so easily startled over anything for example tarpauling over a a pile of logs.

What is the best way to deal with that? Should l talk to him to reassure or will that reinforce the fear. When he pulls back on the lead should l pull him forward or let him do it? Do l completely ignore him. 

I think he is displaying a bit of fear aggression as l said the other day he ran at some people barking and l have noticed that apart from today he does do that if he sees another dog or person in the distance. I also don't want Scamper to do this as he has'nt seen anything for the first 4 months, so he could easily copy this behaviour! 

Anyway must go for now so look forward to hearing some more advice from you if you don't mind. ttfn xxx K


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Not at all. 
Keep moving forward always. timid dogs need a strong leader and by moving forward you express this. I wouldn't talk either. We do send the wrong message at the wrong time. Your right it will reinforce his fears.
I don't know who Karen Prior is? Many years ago I can across Cesar though. I'm a firm advocate of his methods. I tend not to promote a confrontational approach. Not because it doesn't work just I feel happier not putting my clients in and danger. Putting a dog on it's side does work and i do it myself but as Cesar would say the energy has to be right in the handler for the dog to submit. I find inexperienced people don't have this early on. 
Schmoo will get over his jitters if you remain calm and strong. How you walk dogs is very important as youv'e recognised. strong confident body language and positive thoughts are a must. Worrying when you see a child or another dog has adverse effects. That's not to say don't be aware of the possible dangers, but keep in mind you are the pack leader. 
It's hard if the man can't stay down for long. There's one method but it's not without its dangers so I'd like you to try this one first:
Explain to the man that your dogs very skittish. Tell him it would help if he couched down and if Schmoo doesnt come forward ask him to throw the treat near the dog. If he's does this each time he sees him Schmoo will start to associate him with food. Providing he eats the treat. But don't pick it up and give it yourself. 
1. He'll think the treat came from you not the man.
2. if he's not eating it and being timid your rewarding him for his fears, compounding the problem. 
Pick it up and say you'll give it to him when he does something good. 

As for startling around objects ect... It's a case of repeating the exercise. That him past the object over and over he'll do too things.
1. get used to it after a few passes
2. Shut down through fear.
Number two sounds bad, he'll freeze but it's not that bad. He'll shut down and then give in as he sees you want move. He'll see that the object will not kill himso his brain will move forward and he'll rehabilitate himself. He hasn't had enough socialisation and objects scare him. It's your job to teach him they are safe. It can be a long road but don't think you have to fix him too fast. The Pack restructuring program will help him trust you and listen to you as more time passes. These habits will fade as he moves forwards with you.

As for the dog aggression and people charging.
Correct him with the leash as soon as he pricks this ears, puffs out his chest and steps forwards. You are the leader he's not allowed to do his. If this doesn't work Theres pet corrector. If he moves forward express the canister and correct his leash. I can see that being a timid dog you might think you shouldn't knock his confidence but he's displaying aggression and it's not exceptable. He's moving forward and that's not timidness. When you pass dogs and people express the can if he acts up again. Just use the spray for this problem though. We need to encourage him in other areas but correct him in this.
Your Right in thinking that he'll teach the others to behave this way. So walk them alone until you have a handle on Schmoo. 

Good luck


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi Kittysoo and Karen - I have been popping in and checking your thread but have been a bit busy with work  so not had time to write up a proper reply. Its good to see you doing so well with your dogs - I have a loooooong way to go with Toots  anyway I must go to bed - got be set off for 8 in the morning and I havent packed yet. Catch up next week. Have anice Easter weekend


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

An early Happy Easter to everyone especially Karen and TootsiesMum.

I hope l am not jinxing it but the night time problem is solved. All 3 mutts go to sleep with no problems at all. I wish they would sleep in a bit longer but at least it is getting lighter in the morning.

Scamper is definatly beginning to enjoy his walks. He certainly does'nt like the lead but and l do have to pull him out the door but as soon as he is in the front garden his little tail starts wagging. 

I was late walking them today but l have been trying to aim their first walk around the time of the school run in the village. It is the only time of the day when there are people about. We only have about 40 children here but the lane is packed out with cars and children. We seem to walk through that with no problems. It seems to be when we are on our own and then others approach.

Anyway operation Get Over It Schmoo! is about to begin. I'll let you know how it's going as it will be ongoing for a quite a while l think.

A bit of history - when l got Schmoo he was 8 weeks and 2 days old so l thought that l would be ok. Whenever l went into our local market town - l carried him as he had only just started his innoculations. I let people fuss him but he was not enthusiastic just let them do it. I also stood like a muppet on the side of roads watching the traffic go by with him.

The first problem l had was when l went to our local vets puppy party. He was very scared of the dogs and just put up with the attention of the other owners, as we had a pass the puppy which meant each pup had to be held byother people and literally be touched all overy He was the only puppy there that would'nt join in and just let the other owners do what they wanted too.  All the other puppies just wanted to lick our faces and were happy little souls.

As Schmoo was so small they let him come to the next puppy party. In the meantime l took him to town once a week but he was no better. I know this was probably down to me though as l am a bit of a hermit l think.

Anyway l know a lady who has a soft elderly retriever called Poppy that is very laid back, so l have decided to ask her if she would walk with me for short walks with Schmoo and then maybe Scamper.  Her dog is very calm and l have never heard of any trouble. Her children will be on holiday for the next week but after that l will have to pluck up some courage and approach her.

It's a shame that there is'nt a list of good dog owners with placid dogs that you can pay to socialize our dogs with. I only have my mornings off and so the dogs walk then. My husband won't take them out when l am at work in the afternoon. At weekends or holidays l take them out 2 to 3 times a day. Most of the time when l am out l don't see a soul.

Anyway thats it for now - l'll be in touch.

PS Karen Pryor is someone who wrote a book about clicker training. When l have been on other sites, they always mention her. ttfn xxx Kittysoo


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Oh I see, Hadn't heard of her till now. 
Your doing wonderful. The progression is great and I can see your determined to crack this. 
Tootsiemum your doing well too, Just look at what Kittysoo has achieved in a short time... You can do it too


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Its me again - hope you all had a lovely Easter. I had a really busy one - (my Dad has dementia and keeps deprograming the tv- so we are always running over there!)

Anyway despite feeling that l could sleep for a week and have no energy - the dogs now go to sleep with no trouble. They still wake up far too early for my liking though!

Scamper actually wags his tail when he realises that he is going out for a walk so is feeling a little excited. The sight of the lead makes him tremble though and his body language looks afraid. You'd think l beat the hell out of him with it!!!!

I am still perserveering with them all though. Today was'nt good though. I did take all 3 together as l could'nt face 3 separate walks. Scamper and Schmoo dived under a farm gate and l was very lucky that the sheep in the field were quite far off or l would have had trouble. I called them and ran off in the opposite direction and Schmoo came ALMOST immediately with Scamper a good bit behind. On top of that 2 runners came my way and l just managed to get Seiger on a lead. However Schmoo and Scamper did the bark and chase thing. I shook a rattle bottle and Schmoo stopped and stayed with me but Scamper gave a little look around and ran on right at the heals of one of them - enough to make him look round.

I was as rattled as the bottle l can tell you. I put the other 2 on a lead and headed off for home. After a couple of minutes convincing myself that l had had enough - l snapped out of it. I know that my tiredness actually made me walk slow and slouched and l was mentally not really with the dogs. I had lost control before l had even put their leads on. I did'nt want to go out for a walk. Really l should'nt have gone as it wasn't fair on the mutts either.

Anyway l am pulling myself together as l type. Tomorrow l am going to go and see the lady with the placid dog and see if l can arrange a meet up with the 2 little ones on a one to one basis with Poppy (old soft retriever). Later l am going to find another training class. DH thought the last one was a bit of a waste of time in the few lessons that we were there. I also seem to be reading a lot about training but doing very little. So l need to raise my game quite a bit.

Well got to go now and do something positive before l go in to work.

As Arnie says - "I'll be back"!


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi Kittysoo - I havent managed to post in a while either. What with Easter, my DD is home for a few weeks and I have decided to gut the house. 2 trips to the tip and charity shop later my house is a lot lighter. I have 2 large tins of paint calling me too but still need to do a bit more de cluttering before I start painting. Anyway less of that. You sound as if you are doing really well - you can not be in control all of the time till they are trained a bit more. You are certainly going in the right direction so dont be too hard on yourself. I took Tootsie to a dog training group for a few months when we first got her but it wasnt a good group so we gave up - also Tootsie decided to do all of her business in the hall that it was held in. Honestly you wouldnt think such a small dog had so much in her  On our walk this evening Tootsie did her business and I was getting a bag out of my pocket but didnt see where 'it' landed so I was combing through the grass looking for it and Toots was off lead and I didnt notice that 2 dogs were coming from both directions. She tried to go off to meet one of the dogs but luckily I had just been doing some re call with her so she came right back when I called  It has been hard keeping her off the furniture with my DD at home but she has started to learn her place. Need to start training my DD now


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Sorry for the delay in updating my situation.

Well Scamper is fine going out now and thoroughly enjoys it. Thank goodness l did'nt take the vets advice on this one. 

I am noticing that he is getting more dominent towards the others. If he does'nt want to play he lets them know. Also he is getting to the chewy stage. When he gives me a kiss he is getting a bit toothy, so that will have to be checked. Also he is starting to hump Schmoo. When he is 6 months old he is definately losing the family jewels. I have no doubt that in time he will be top dog but l do want a couple of bitches later on and l have been told that bitches are usually top dog in packs.

Schmoo has never really liked grooming as he has a Yorkie coat and is quite long. He would always chew the brush and comb and l had to always distract him with something else to chew. l now stick him on the edge of a chair and straddle him when l am doing it and he seems to have settled down a lot- l guess its all part if the pack leader thing again.

Seiger still won't leave Scamper alone if he's awake. He ignores Schmoo all the time and seems to only want to play with the other one. However Scamper does'nt like to constantly have his head in Seigers jaws. 

The night time sleeps are fine now but l think that Seiger wakes up with the birds as this morning he barked at 5-10 which was just after l heard the birds. I am obviously getting used to the early starts in the day - l think l am tuning into them just like l did when my children were babies! The only thing is about half an hour of being up - l start dozing with the 2 little ones lying on me.

My next door neighbours lodger had a real go at me the other night. DH has to leave the dogs at home to come and pick me up from work and so he was out for an hour. According to her next door Seiger started barking as soon as we left and that started the other 2 off. The little ones screech when they get going so it must sound awful.

I know that we should stop it but it's hard. I bought Seiger one of those collars that make a high pitch tone but it was useless. DH now leaves the tv on and turns it to Kerrang which if anyone has'nt heard of it - is a heavy metal channel! Any suggestions would be helpful bearing in mind that relations with the neighbour is at an all time low. Luckily on the other side of the house is a field so if the sheep are annoyed - l'm non the wiser!

Anyway got to walk the dogs now so had better go. xxx K


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## Daisy8 (Mar 17, 2008)

Hi,

Please could you let me know more about the "putting dogs on their sides", I have never heard of this and am very interested in what it does.


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi Daisy

I have only ever seen Cesar Milan do that but he does advise that you have a behavourist help you. However one day l was in the kitchen and Schmoo pounced on one of my cats and when it lashed at him he got very growlyand snarly. Without thinking l yelled No and grabbed him and put him on his back and he instantly just flopped there, not trying to get up. I said No again and then slowly released him. When he got up l just talked normally to him in a quiet voice and then told him off you go. 

I did this without thinking and it worked but l don't know if it was the right thing to do. I think Karen would be the best one to ask on this.

What dog do you have and how old and whats the problem by the way.


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

It's designed to place the dog in a submissive place. You hold them there whilst they submit. When they stay there without force youv'e won. I wouldn't advise using it. It's direct confrontation and should only be used be experienced dog handlers. I'd advise the rebalancing program as it restructures the pack without direct confrontation.

Glad to see your both doing well. Consistancy will bring great results. Beware how much freedom you allow your dogs off leash before you have perfect recall. Every time they don't come back is a knock to your status within the pack. 

To practice recall he's my advice:

1. buy a whistle with apitch the dog doesnt know.
2. attach a long leash or rope to the dog. 
3. blow whistle and pull the dog in to you.
4. give dog a treat and send it away with lot's of praise.
5.Recall dog again and follow same above steps another five times.
6. Recall dog and only give praise.
7. recall dog and give treat, recall then praise, recall then treat ect
8. recall dog with out treats for five times.
9 release dog recall without rope pull. 
10 send dog away 
11. recall dog put him on leash. Tada!!!

A scientist named Pavlov rang a bell and blew meat powder into the dogs mouth. After a while the dog would respond to the whistle by salavating. even without any treat being offered.
This is programmed behaviour. The above method will develope this in your dogs and recall will no loger be an issue. 
It's most important that you only blow whistle once then pull him in if he doesn't come. If you give him another chance you'll teach him to come when he feels like it. Until you get perfect recall keep the dog on a leash. 
I'm very busy at the moment ladies so I'll apologise now if it's a while before I reply again. But your both doing fine now anyway.


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Kittysoo. you did it instinctively and that's a reflex reaction that has developed because you are naturally becoming the pack leader. Well done. I don't advise it because most people don't have that natural instinct. Hesitation can get you bitten. I should know...


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks Karen

I did'nt realise that l was doing too much damage by repeatedly callin the dogs. Some times they all trot back straight away and at other times the grass is to enticing to sniff. I have kept calling and have then given a grumpy yell to get the attention.

I did'nt realise that calling a few times were that detrimental to pack leader status but l do now. I shall definatly get them a long training lead and stick to doing separate walks. I have been cheating recently as it is pretty tiring walking 3 separatly. My DH is not really interested in walking the dogs at all and won't even come out with me either.

Anyway its good that you are busy Karen as that is your living. Pop in everynow please as its good to have your advice. I feel that l am getting there slowly but surely.

ttfn xxx Kittysoo


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

Yes please do keep popping in with your advice Karen  it is much appreciated.
Tootsie is doing really well with recall apart from a little blip the other night but she is in season so her brain is all over the place at the moment. When she is off lead I call her by name if she finds something more interesting to sniff and she is coming straight back - sometimes give a treat and sometimes just praise her. I have also made her sit whilst off lead to let bikers or walkers go past - I really keep my eye on her with this but she seems to be doing alright.
I really need to work on her in the car though ( sorry to hi jack your thread Kittysoo  ) I dont know if anybody else has this problem but as soon as I put Tootsie in the car she whines and it drives me crazy. The only way to stop her is to let her sit on my knee which is not safe so I have bought a cage for her to go in when I am driving. I dont think she is frightened by the car as she gets really excited when I put the cage in the car and comes to me to pick her up to put her in. The problem is that I sometimes have to go on long journeys with her and it is a nightmare - literally takes her an hour to shut up and finally give in  Any advice on this one would be fantastic and would stop me driving myself round the bend - literally  I have tried telling her to be quiet, treats, ignoring her, putting her favourite toys in the cage with her. I just dont know what to try next  It would be so nice to take her to the beach or the park without the stress


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

I wish l lived close to the beach. I feel we are as far inland as you can get!

We have an estate car and Seiger has always sat in the back part. Now that the little ones are travelling with us we have bought them 2 harness that clip into the seatbelt slots.

I have put a furry blanket on the back seat and l find that both of the dogs lie down and settle quite quickly. My only problem is that Scamper seems to suffer from car sickness! We always open the window a couple of inches to let the air in too.

I am sure Cear Milan had a dog that did the same as Tootsie and l think that he cured her by just sitting in the car with her without the engine running and then the radio on and finally with the engine running before he attempeted a journey. He made the car a pleasant place to be. Maybe look onhis website at the questions and answers bit to see if anything is on there.

PS Your'e definatly not hyjacking the thread TM. Its all about training and l find that reading posts about other peoples dogs is really helpful.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

tootsiesmum said:


> Yes please do keep popping in with your advice Karen  it is much appreciated.
> Tootsie is doing really well with recall apart from a little blip the other night but she is in season so her brain is all over the place at the moment. When she is off lead I call her by name if she finds something more interesting to sniff and she is coming straight back - sometimes give a treat and sometimes just praise her. I have also made her sit whilst off lead to let bikers or walkers go past - I really keep my eye on her with this but she seems to be doing alright.
> I really need to work on her in the car though ( sorry to hi jack your thread Kittysoo  ) I dont know if anybody else has this problem but as soon as I put Tootsie in the car she whines and it drives me crazy. The only way to stop her is to let her sit on my knee which is not safe so I have bought a cage for her to go in when I am driving. I dont think she is frightened by the car as she gets really excited when I put the cage in the car and comes to me to pick her up to put her in. The problem is that I sometimes have to go on long journeys with her and it is a nightmare - literally takes her an hour to shut up and finally give in  Any advice on this one would be fantastic and would stop me driving myself round the bend - literally  I have tried telling her to be quiet, treats, ignoring her, putting her favourite toys in the cage with her. I just dont know what to try next  It would be so nice to take her to the beach or the park without the stress


Try just covering her cage with a blanket


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

tashi said:


> Try just covering her cage with a blanket


preferably a sound proof one  will try that Tashi and see if it works and have a look at the Cesar Milan site Kittysoo. I have tried putting her in the car when I clean it so that she can get used to it when not driving but as I dont clean my car very often  she probably can not remember it  I havent tried a harness on Tootsie yet but If the cage doesnt work out that will be next on the list ( Pets at home really love me ) It would be lovely if she would just settle and lie down like yours.
Am running a bit late tonight so am just about to go out on a walk with Tootsie. Catch up later


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

I have to ask what is Tootsie she looks a little like a german spitz klein


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

tashi said:


> I have to ask what is Tootsie she looks a little like a german spitz klein


yes she is pomeranian and they are part of the German Spitz family ( the German Spitz Klein was bred smaller and smaller till the pomeranian was born but I have just had a look on Google and the German Spitz was made protected in 1994 to keep their size ) Tootsie was the runt so is very small ( 12" tall ) and her face although it is very cute is not a good example of a pom - but does look more like a minature version of a spitz  hmmmm you have made me think about this now - perhaps I should call her a minature German Spitz Klein instead of a Pomeranian as she really does look more like one. The pics on google of a spitz look more like her than a pom although a pom can be called a Dwarf Spitz too so I think I might call her that in future. Have put the pics below to see what you think

German Spitz Klein









Pomeranian


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

we have german spitz and that is what made me ask you say she is 12 " that is far too big for a pom anyway and is actually too big for a klein she is a small mittel



























these are ours


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

awww they are georgeous Tashi. Right I have just measured her as I guessed her height and it is actually 9 inches to the top of her back ( wasnt sure where the withers were ) I am not sure what her weight is but she is very small. Her fur has also been trimmed ( mix up at the dog groomers last year when they shaved her  ) Thankyou for raising this as I always wondered but never looked into it.


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

For the car problems: 
You'll need another pair of hands to help with this. 
Expresss correction spray towards her when she starts making a noise. and a firm NO! Do this enough and you should get results. 

Be careful with a long leash though. It's not suitable for "crazy manic" dogs as they could get there legs tanggled and get injured.

Kittysoo... I'd get rid of the husband and get another dog!  Just kinding... Welldone both by the way.


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

Thanks for the advice on taking Toots in the car - I think we have a short trip on Saturday so will try covering the cage first but if that doesnt work I will get a spray bottle with water in it and have a go with that. Poor thing wont know whats hit her 
How are you getting on Kittysoo?


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

tootsiesmum said:


> awww they are georgeous Tashi. Right I have just measured her as I guessed her height and it is actually 9 inches to the top of her back ( wasnt sure where the withers were ) I am not sure what her weight is but she is very small. Her fur has also been trimmed ( mix up at the dog groomers last year when they shaved her  ) Thankyou for raising this as I always wondered but never looked into it.


she is about the same height as the one in the second photo down who is a small klein although in the standard. You must have been devasted to go and pick her up and have her shaved!!!


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

I nearly cried Tashi  but we had to see the funny side of it in the end. She looked like a little lamb as the fur underneath is very wooly and she is mainly white with beige patches on her ears and back ( I must also say that she loved it as it was in the summer so she was a lot cooler ). I had only asked them for a trim


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

tootsiesmum said:


> I nearly cried Tashi  but we had to see the funny side of it in the end. She looked like a little lamb as the fur underneath is very wooly and she is mainly white with beige patches on her ears and back ( I must also say that she loved it as it was in the summer so she was a lot cooler ). I had only asked them for a trim


there is a breeder round the shows that does them in a lowchen clip that looks quite sweet


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi All

You are going to think that l am quite mad but on top of all my problems with my pups - l am getting another one!

Schmoo was my 50th birthday present and he is such a lovely little boy though quite scared of new things as l realised that l had not socialized him as much as l should have.

Anyway l wrote to his parents owners and said that if in future they had another litter, l would love to have a little girl! Well l forgot all about it until yesterday when l came home from work to find a message on my answer machine saying that they had a litter that was 2 weeks old and that was l still interested? They had 6 boys and 1 girl!

Well sorry peeps l could'nt resist and have reserved her. I am going to see them next Monday and they are going to be ready about the 8th May.

Now its all a done deal and despite DH saying not another one - l am asking for help.

I have about 4 to 5 weeks to prepare for the arrival and l want to get everything right. The other dogs sleep downstairs now, so with this one being really small - Yorkie X - is it a risk for the first few days until she is totally excepted to let her sleep with the others?

Also l don't want any bad habits rubbing off on her so is there anything l can do in the meantime withthe others. Remember that l have only had Scamper less than a couple of months and he was almost 16 weeks when l got him. He seems to have a much shorter fuse than the others as well as being a Jack Russell.

I do want a peaceful encounter for (Katie) and the others and don't want to mess up her head with my isolation.


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Socialise socialise and ... Socialise! Keep her seperated when your not around the other dogs till you can see ahe's excepted. Monitor them all and see how they go. Carry on doing what your doing with our dogs and all should be well. Start disapline from day one and she'll grow up a happy camper!


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks Karen - when it all went quiet l thought you had all thought she's obviously one of those mad dog women who is overrun with poo and puppies!

By the way getting rid of DH was a good idea but to be honest without him l think l would be that mad dog women plus have quite a lot of cats too!

I will be gettting her at 7 weeks as the owners vet said that her last litter were way too attached at 8 weeks. As she will not have had injections should l just carry her everywhere l go and let as many people as possible touch her? I did take Schmoo with me but he was quite reluctant to have anyone touch him. He just let them do it but you could tell that he preffered they did'nt.

Anyway l must go hope all is going well with you all.


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

awwww another puppy  you must be mad  I would love another one - met a man with a gorgeous Lhasa Apso (sp?) the other day, it was sooooo cute. I could have just bundled her up and taken her home with me BUT a certain little Tootsie would go green with jealousy - she barks if my DD comes near me  I was actually looking for a Yorkie when I got Toots - you must put some photos up when you go to see her.
We have tried to vary the recall training. My DD was home last week so we tried telling her sit and stay then both walked off in different directions with either of us having the treat - it worked fine. However I have now tried to make her sit while I run away - just 10 paces but she runs after me lol, I think we need to work on that one a bit. On our walk tonight I was trying to cross the road when another dog came along then a car and 2 joggers while I was on my mobile - poor dog didnt know which way to go. 
Still need to do a lot of work on her in the car. I have tried covering the cage and it just drowned out the noise so I got a little spray but it was more of a mist so didnt do anything but get her wet 
Good luck with your new arrival


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi Tootsiesmum

I went to see Katie yesterday. I could have taken them all home with me as they are gorgeous. It seems that l can get her on the May bank holiday weekend so not long to go.

I am definaetly mad and hope that l am not making a bad situation even worse. I had forgotten that l had sent the letter to Schmoos parents owners and l was acually thinking that probably next year for the next one. It seems that they had the same idea, and had bought special pants for her to wear around the house. They were suprised when they discovered she was pregnant.

They are such a lovely family and the house is beautiful and clean as well as the dogs. I wish mine was like that!  

You are doing really well with Tootsie. I took Seiger to Brackley which is the nearest small town to me and had a little walk around with him and took him to visit my Dad in his new home. He was very good but not a 100% relaxed. All he has ever known is walking though the countryside. I did'nt pass any dogs though as l was going to visit Katie in Northampton and was running out of time. 

At the moment l have pulled my back and on top of that seem to have an ear infection so l can't take the dogs out.  Hopefully my back will get better soon as DH wont take them out, so they are just running about the garden.

Also my next door neighbour had another go at me on Friday night which really upset me a lot. He has got to the point that they only have to bark once and he's off. I am becoming a nervous wreck with it all and in fact l ended up sleeping on the sofa on Friday night as l was disturbing DH - that it when l pulled my back, so actually it was his fault. He seems to think that l can stop all 3 from barking immediately but he doest'nt help by banging the fence and yelling at them.

Well l must go now as l have to go to work. I have put on my tens machine so that is helping but its going to be a rough day.

Keep it up with Tootsie though - it will be worth it in the end.


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## Paula C (Mar 25, 2008)

tootsiesmum said:


> awwww another puppy  you must be mad  I would love another one - met a man with a gorgeous Lhasa Apso (sp?) the other day, it was sooooo cute. I could have just bundled her up and taken her home with me BUT a certain little Tootsie would go green with jealousy - she barks if my DD comes near me  I was actually looking for a Yorkie when I got Toots - you must put some photos up when you go to see her.
> Good luck with your new arrival


Thats exactly what happened to me  went on a night out with a friend who said she was gonna rehome her Lhasa Aspo, only I couldnt resist  no regrets though we love her to bits so does Sandy our cocker spaniel.


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Glad to know that l am not the only mad woman Paula. I do like LAs. I saw one in the street and and she was so friendly and adorable. 

I did'nt hesitate for a minute with Katie. I just hope that Scamper is going to be ok with her as sometimes if he is lying on me and Seiger comes over he goes crazy. 

I tell him off, grab him by the scruff and put him straight on the floor and make a fuss of Seiger. He must feel jealousy and with Katie being so small l can see a problem. 

I just hope that he accepts the fact that she will be smaller than him and female. Also l hope that putting a bitch into the mix wont upset the applecart with the boys!

I am still trying to get on top of these boys but they are a handful.


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Things are getting worse!!!!

I think that l have posted before about my next door neighbour and his lodger who do nothing but comolain about my dogs. Well its got worse.

I admit l have a problem. I did'nt work when Seiger was a pup and as l could'nt drive - l was always at home for him. I am sure that he has separation anxiety. He howls and yelps about a minute after l leave and now he has passed this onto the little ones. All 3 probably make a racket.

DH is retired but he does have to take me to work in the afternoon and collect me in the evening which means leaving the dogs alone for about an hour. Also there are occasions when it is longer ie: shopping, doctors,hospital and visiting my son and his wife eho have elderly dog hater cats who live about an hour away!

My neighbours have got to the point now that they are coming out and having a go at us when we get home. I can cope with this - she is the worst - very foul mouthed and insulting but l am getting more and more down with it all. DH is digging his heels in and says that he won't take the dogs with us every time he takes me to work, so l am beginning to feel like the meat in a sandwich. Did l mention that l am a vegetarian?

I just do not know what to do next. Even when the dogs play they make a lot of noise and l am getting so on edge.

Its one thing to stop them barking when l am with them but l can't do anything when l am not there. I feel like l don't want to go to work anymore but still have bills to pay.

I am not going down the route of having them debarked as it is cruel and inhumane, but last night l was so upset as for the first time l actually thought of rehoming the little ones and keeping Seiger (12) as he can't have much more time and then not having anymore dogs.

Has anyone had any similar problems and what did you do?


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

Im really sorry that you are having problems Kittysoo - I really dont know what to suggest that you havent tried already. The only experience that I have of this is from the other side I am afraid. I actually moved into my present house because of noisy neighbours but they did nothing about their dogs, never walked them or cleaned up after them and they were big dogs. I became very sensitive to any noise next door ( not just the dogs ) he was an alcoholic and she was just in a very bad situation but was a nice lady really. I wonder if it would help to write a letter to them to tell them what you are doing and to let them know that being abusive in the street is really upsetting you. I didnt really like dogs till I got one of my own and got de sensitised to their ways  A friend of mine leaves the radio on for her dogs when she goes out ( not sure if you have tried this already? ). Another thought would be to take them on their walks just before you go out to work so that hopefully they will be tired and just sleep. Could you get a bus to work so that they will not be left alone? I cant think of anything else to suggest at the moment but hopefully somebody with more experience with dogs will be able to give you some proper advice. I really feel for you as it sounds like you really are between a rock and a hard place at the moment. 

All the best & hope you get something sorted soon for your own sanity if nothing else - Angela


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## Daisy8 (Mar 17, 2008)

Hi,

I am so sorry you are having problems with your neighbours, why can't life be peaceful, I haven't read all of the things you have tried, but have you thought about leaving the radio on or recording your voices so that the dogs think you are about. Sorry if you have tried this, but they obviously don't like being away from you.

Hope that things brighten up for you.


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## karen (Feb 28, 2008)

Right! I just had chance to have a quick glance so if I miss things out forgive me. 
The gist is your dogs bark when your not there?

Ok well if it's anxiety based you could try anxiety for dogs. it's a remedy that I've read is good for dogs. Also if it's over excited behavior then there's Vervain which is a bach remedy. Might take the edge off their being left alone. Ignore your bloody neighbours and tell them that you realise they are a problem and your doing everything you can to remedy it.

I'l get my thinking cap on and get back to you asap.


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi all thanks so much for the support. Things are changing quite quickly here.

Firstly the we received a letter from the animal welfare officer to say that we had been reported. They gave us a leaflet about the usual ways to stop dogs from getting stressed and we actually do all that. DH rang her up today and it went very well. She had no idea that 2 of the dogs were puppies ansd the other one was elderly . We told her what we were doing and she actually said that we should'nt be intimidated into changing our way of life and if they are abusive again - we must call the police!

Prior to the letter l had managed to talk DH into putting the dogs in the car when taking and collecting me to and from work. He then takes them to a field in the middle of no where and lets them run - so they are getting more exercise than they ever had. He says he actually enjoys it now. Winter time won't be so good!!!!!

I will look out for the medication you mentioned Karen, also l know that the vets have a plug in that sends out the scent of a mother dog that has just had pups. Seemingly it is supposed to calm the dogs down and make them feel at ease.

I don't think the neighbours and l will ever get back to what it was before he moved that woman in b ut at least l wont have him perving all over me as soon as DH back is turned. 

By the way talking of DH, he was very naughty and told the AWO that SHE had rented a room from HIM and that he had once boasted that they had found a way of getting round the council tax. The AWO told DH she would be passing this info on to the relevant departments for checking.! DH says he had no qualms about it at all as we have turned a blind eye to all their goings on just to keep the peace but thats all over now!

Anyway must go to work now and of course load the mutts in the car. Its like taking 3 babies out with me. I need a bag of stuff when l am visiting now!


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

I am so pleased that things have got sorted out for you. I hope things go better in the future and well done on getting the OH to look after the dogs while you are at work. As far as your neighbours are concerned - what comes around goes around, hope they get whats coming to them 
Had a bit of a disaster here last night. I tried to trim Tootsies nails ( stopped getting them done when she got shaved at the dog groomers ) anyway I took one of them a bit too low and it bled  I stood her in the bath to try to stop it bleeding but it didnt stop it. She got blood all over my house and i felt so guilty because it was my fault. I will be getting them done professionally in the future


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks Angela

I bet you feel so guilty about Tootsies toenails Schmoo has little black ones and l can't see where the quick is on them and when l trim them - l am half expecting a screech of pain!

For the next couple of weeks l have to do full time and as my back is still not right DH is doing the walks. I did walk with them over the field with DH but can't do the actual holding of leads at the moment in case l am pulled.

Your're right about next door neighbor getting what he deserves! I do believe that what you do in life will come back to haunt you. I have'nt had any trouble from them for a couple of days but l am sure that they are writing down any time the dogs bark on their little form for the council! Such small minded people!

I have found a training school that is about 40 mins away that has trainers that don't get paid for the work they do. They support rescue kennels and do fund raising for them too. It is in the old american base at upper heyford and l am definately thinking of giving it a go. 

It is only 50p per session for pups and you can take your dogs up for a free consultaion beforehand if you feel you have specific problems. Also 3 of the trainers are graduates from Dr Ian Dunbars school. He is quite well respected in the dog world it seems.

Anyway must go now but l'll be back!!!


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Back again.

Had a bit of a disaster with the dogs staying downstairs!
It seems l snore when l eat too much!!!!!!

DH who is an amazing snorer can't put up with my piggy grunts every now and then, so ended up sleeping on the sofa. 

Problem was the dogs thought this was great, so have started expecting him to come down and have started giving little barks calling out for him!

Now if we were on speaking terms with my neighbours from hell - (Bye the way his dogs have suddenly disappeared - either he is tying up their muzzles to keep them quiet or he is not allowing them out of the house any more l don't know but I would tell him that the dogs are going to do the odd bark, but we are going to ignore it and it should soon stop.

Unfortunately as he is just waiting for us to step out of line, we can't let them continue barking and reluctantly made the decision to let them back upstairs again. 

I am so anoyed and disappointed as l felt we were getting somewhere but because DH was sleeping downstairs too often they had worked out that by barking he would come running. Suddenly they were training us!

Last night was the first night that they came back upstairs and to be honest it was a nightmare for me. Schmoo and Seiger settled down but Scamper kept trying to get up on the bed. DH complained that he was just dozing off and we had the worst dogs ever and this could'nt go on - yar de yar de yar and suddenly all 3 were prancing about! Told all 3 to go back to bed and told DH to shut up moaning ! Finally peace and l got some sleep.

Then Scamper decided that he needed to go out after a couple of hours. I took all 3 down and let them out one at a time so as not to have all 3 barking - (have foxes and sheep very close by). Finally went back to bed. 

Ten minutes later Scamper started pacing and crying. I thought no way you've been out and ignored him. Then the smell hit me - he deposited a pile on the laminate floor by DH side of bed. Shoved him out again and cleaned up. All this time DH slept on in blissful ignorance!

Five AM - DH needed the loo!!!!!! Woke all 3 up and then went back to bed not before letting them out of the bedroom so there l was rushing downstairs for the 3rd time to let them out AGAIN!!!!

The radio alarm clock woke me up at 7 then lights on clocks and radio went off. Dogs had jumped about when they heard it and get this - actually managed to knock the switch up by the plug!!! At worse just playful spirits but possibly one of the little devils wanted a lie in after the previous few hours and switched it off.

Anyway l could'nt risk sleeping in as l had to open up reception at work so had to get up earlier than planned.

All in all it was a knackering night. I should gave stuck with cats!

Anyway tomorrow morning l am off to vist Katie. She will be 5 weeks old now and running about. Only one more week and then she's coming home

I am going to start a new thread in dog chat by the way as l have a question to ask about Katie and this post is very long. The title will have puppy and stroller in it by the way heh heh heh


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

Oh dear Kitty - at least you can say your dogs are quick learners  I hope you have a better night tonight  If it is any consolation Toots had me up at 6.30 this morning so I have moved my heating timer on a bit as I think that was what woke her . Tootsie has always slept in my bedroom because I set my alarm on a night downstairs but she settles down nicely now and I dont let her up on the bed anymore.

I have been trying her on some new dog food which she seems to like so Im going to give it a try. I got IAMS last time but apparently it is full of rubbish so I have am trying her on a natural one. Re call is still going well but there were a few other dogs about on our walk tonight and she kept getting distracted. 

Have you looked into the training school yet? I took Toots to one for a while but one of the trainers always brought his 4 year old daughter and she always wanted to take Tootsie - she used to literally drag her round the room and I was trying to be polite and had to just let her. I think that may be one of the reasons that she hates kids but that is a whole other problem  

I hope it goes well with Katie tomorrow


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Can I just say Kitty that I think you are absolutely nuts to be bringing another dog home. Your other three are ruling your life now, causing problems with your neighbours, your OH doesnt sound too happy and I'm pretty sure when you get your new baby home she will behave in exactly the same way as the rest. Its not that long ago that you had thoughts of rehoming the pups - well instead of 2 to rehome this'll be 3. Sorry if this sounds harsh because I can just tell from your posts that you do adore your fur babies


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi Toots and Jo

Just read your posts before turning in. DH is watching snooker only another 9 days of boring evenings to go!

Your right Jo about the 3 turning into 4 problems and your also right about them running my life at the moment. I was pretty down when said about rehoming the mutts. I know l won't do it but l was very upset about the way the neighbors have been behaving. 

I think the dog barking has been the final straw between the 2 households. Basically when he moved in his lodger, he changed from an independent male to a henpecked wuss. His lodger is a very short tempered woman who likes her own way and she has changed him a lot. Had almost 20 years of him being a perv but a polite one. 

When l just had Lucy (GSD/Lab X) and Seiger (GSD), life was certainly a lot simpler. Both dogs walked well and my next door neighbor was still talking too me.

Looking back l realise that DH was always a cat person. He loved GSD and they are his favourite breed but l was the one that walked them. When he came home from work he would play with them and usually feed them but it was always me they turned too.

To be honest l rushed into Schmoo. My intentions were that when l lost the both of them we would get older rescue dogs. If DH had said lets get a pup though l would have been straight in there agreeing with him, but he also said no more dogs till we had lost the others. 

There was 5 months between them and the moment we got the second one l found it difficult. They distracted each other all the time and trainning was very hard. Some how l have blocked this from my mind.

When DH asked me what l wanted for my 50th birthday - l did'nt know but said a puppy only as someone had shown me a picture of one at work a few days before. I honestly never thought he would take it seriously as it was not what we had planned.

Not long after l got Schmoo, Lucy passed away. I was back to 2 dogs but missing her like crazy. Training was going fairly well but then l bumped into a friend of mine whom l had lost contact with and her Yorkie was about to have puppies. When they were born she invited me around and I suddenly became obsessed with the thought of having a little girl. Problem was DH thought that paying £600 was over the top and refused.

Totally disappointed and on impulse l bought Scamper a little Jack Russell boy aged 15 weeks for £75 after seeing a notice at a vets appointment about a week later! 

In the meantime, still not having my girl and finding Schmoo to be so sweet, l wrote to his parents owners and said in the future l would love to have a little girl. I thought that would be next year and that l would have the training all sorted out by then. I was quite shocked that she was born so soon. I had committed myself to Katie but also it may sound stupid but l think that l fell into the trap of falliing for little puppies. We'd all love to have them but we have to be sensible and raise one at a time. I seem to be collecting them.

Having had big dogs in the past. It almost feels that 4 little ones add up to one big one!!! Nuts l know.

I think l realised when l got Scamper that l had bitten off more than l could chew. I have never had a Jack Russell before, never read about them until l got him and am completely suprised at just how stubborn and independent he is compared with Seiger and Schmoo. I also got him at an older age and he had never left his puppy home at all. Basically he is a dog that has got balls and he knows it.

I thought that the socializing that l had done was ok but l realise now that it was not enough. I have been told that the little ones feel bold as they are a pack walking together rather than just owner and dog. Even Schmoo who is a very submissive dog will bark and run towards anything that he sees. Moat of our walks are solitary as we hardly ever bump into anyone.

My final bad point is that if l am being honest l am a person that gets distracted easily and does'nt see things through to the end. If there is a quick fix - l'll take it. My attitude to dog training is exactly the same.

DH takes no part in training the dogs. I am just as lax at times. When l get tired - consistency flies out the window. I have a 1001 things to do before l will allocate the time to trainning. There is alway one more thing to do before l can start it.

Yet l could stock a library with all the dog books, behaviour books and a pet shop with all the latest gadgets that are supposedly meant to aid in training. I download E books, print off tons of info about training when l should be putting a proper routine together and actually getting on with it! DH now says that l spend all my spare time reading the posts on this forum rather than do something constructive with my time. I look on it as l am learning about dogs.

Anyway girls, l think l have waffled long enough, it is very theroputic though. Trust me all the mutts will have a good life and will be well taken care of but l know that l have to change the way l deal with them as it can only get worse as the pups get older. At the moment l can excuse their behaviour as puppy boisteriousness, but if l am not careful Scamper will push to become top dog over us humans too.

All k can say is that the mutts and l are a work in progress!


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## Amy_1984 (Apr 19, 2008)

My heart sank reading that post ^^ I feel very sad but happy for you... you have your babies, but times are hard and i think thats the hardest thing... You love them sooo much it drives you crazy 24hrs a day and in disguise its a good thing that you care for them so much and you know where to go right in future, and your doing something about it. I wish you all the luck in the world and i know you will have a lovely future with them  I cant wait to hear the good updates xx


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Thanks Amy for your kind words. I feel more cheerful today

In the cold light of day l looked at my thread and thought oops your wearing your heart on your sleeve again! I do get very emotional about things and my fur babies are so precious to me but l have humanised them and trying to reverse my own reactions to them is very difficult.

I was fussing Seiger my GSD and despite being a huge old boy his muscles are so wasted now. His bone structure is great and have no problems, he eats well, plays with the pups and looks forward to his walks. Yet when l fuss him there feels hardly anything there any more and though you cant really see that he has detiorated you can feel it. I shall miss him when he goes but make the most of each day. He will be my last big boy.

I also admit defeat far too early but if it takes me the next few years - l will sort these pups out.

Talking of pups - l went to see Katie today. What an adorable little bundle of fur. Took some more photos and a video pictures of her and her family. Even her human family are lovely. Only one week till we get her. I took a little dog blanket and wrapped her in it to get her smell on so my mutts can pick up her smell. They were all over it when l got home.

Tomorrow l have to collect my Dad (he has dementia) and then off we go to my sisters house. I(t is the second anniversary of my Mums death, so we are going to get together.

I now have to take all 3 mutts with us, as they might bark and the neighbors will have another chance to jot down on their list. 

From past experience it is like taking 3 babies out at the same time. Have to strap each one into the car. Take food, dishes,snacks, toys, towels as its supposed to be raining, beds so they wont lie on my sisters cream carpets,dog coats,poo bags and of course leads. It seems more work than when my children were small.


Anyway must sign off now and do some emails before bed. Tomorrow is another day according to Scarlet O Hara!


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

I hope you have good day with your Dad and family - what a nice thought to remember your Mum with all of your family around you ( including your fur babies ) 
I have created a bit of a problem here. I have been decorating for the last week ( and will probably be decorating for the next few weeks at the rate Im going  ) Anyway I have moved the furniture around in my living room so that my window is not blocked and to let more light in. Unfortunately my window is very low and it means that Toots can see ouside and she is barking at any movement in the street. I live at the end of a road so there isnt much going on out there but my neighbours only use their back door so walk past my window and Toots barks like mad  My neighbours have always been good with Toots even though she runs up to them and barks at them if we are at the front of the house. If she is in the back garden and they are in theirs she also barks - on the other side of my house is a cycle and footpath which again if anybody walks past she barks at them too. Toots is told to be 'quiet' as soon as she barks but she will then sit growling till she has had the last word  if she doest shut up I just put her back in the house. I am going to have to see how we get on with the furniture this way round and see if she settles down - I prefer it this way round though. My neighbour told me that he is dog sitting his daughters springer spaniel this week so we will have to see what Toots thinks of that - the spaniel is a lovely dog but is timid so I can just imagine Tootsie frightening the poor thing  
Right I need to get off now and sort out my tip/house


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi Angela

Know exactly what you mean - once you start decorating it is only natural to change the room round for a whole new look.
Maybe you should keep a water bottle by the window for Tootsie. I am lucky that mine and my neighbors house is slightly set back and mine is the last in the street - adjoining a field. 
Still even though the mutts cant see anything they can hear everything going on out there and used to let us know! These days they are never out of our sight which is not very good. Dam those neighbors !

Today DH dropped me off at work and then took the dogs over the hill. He kept them on a lead as he saw a couple of horse riders going by. Once they were out of sight he let them off, only to find that a few minutes later they had turned back and came back into view again. He managed to get Schmoo and Seiger on a lead but Scamper took off!

He told me that little legs or not he still managed to get down the hill to the horses in no time and was barking around the feet of the horses. Luckily they were fine or there could have been a nasty accident if the horses had reared. It seems that Scamper just kept following barking and jumping around till DH managed to get down the hill again.

A few days ago - again on the hill a landrover passed and off he went after that! I have told DH to put him on a long lead as he is just not consistent with recall at all and is out of control. Hopefully l will be back to working part time in the next week or so and then l can start walking them out again too and getting some lead work in. 

Last weekend when l went to my sisters with my Dad l noticed that DH had loaded the dogs in the car without their haltis on and what a difference when l put them on their leads, My back was still bad and all 3 of them pulled me like crazy that l nearly fell over. Even Seiger who has necer been a problem pulled so hard that l could barely hold them. That is going to stop for sure!!!!

Getting back to the house - DH painted mine white all the way through a couple of years ago and believe me it needs doing again. The whole place has got into a right mess and l will have to start my decluttering again. Plus muddy wet dogs are an absolute no no on white walls and skirting!

Anyway hope that Tootsie is settling a bit now, please let us know how it goes and enjoy your new look!


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2008)

Jo P said:


> Can I just say Kitty that I think you are absolutely nuts to be bringing another dog home. Your other three are ruling your life now, causing problems with your neighbours, your OH doesnt sound too happy and I'm pretty sure when you get your new baby home she will behave in exactly the same way as the rest. Its not that long ago that you had thoughts of rehoming the pups - well instead of 2 to rehome this'll be 3. Sorry if this sounds harsh because I can just tell from your posts that you do adore your fur babies


Totally agree! You must be nuts!


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

Am just waiting for Tootsie to be sick - I hope. On our walk this evening she went off onto a boggy part and I went to call after her and noticed she had something in her mouth. I told her to leave it but she gulped what ever it was down and choked a bit on it. I dont know what it was but I hope she brings it back up  
I have been full of cold this week  even lemsip max strength didnt touch it and I now look like Rudolph  I have still managed to paint my kitchen albeit very slowly  Im going to pick my DD up tomorrow for the weekend so it is 3 1/2 hours each way in the car with Tootsie  I hope she settles but on past experience it takes about an hour for her to give up whining and settle  must get a water squirty bottle  I have friends coming over on sunday for dinner. They will be bring their 2 little ones but Im sure Tootsie will be more interested in what I have in the oven to bother with them. She is fine with kids as long as they leave her alone so I have to keep an eye on the kids and make sure they dont try to stroke her. 
Is it this weekend that you get to pick up Katie?


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi TM

Yes l picked up Katie today. Her lovely owner had tied a deep rose pink bow around her neck. She looked adorable. I have the email of her owners and will be keeping in touch with her on a regular basis. Apart from the fact that the Mum is about 20 years younger than me - she is exactly like me when it comes to dogs. Her 2 little boys are booked into the vets for neutering next week as e this litter was a suprise for her owners!

I have posted in Dog chat with an SOS as ; thought l had got it covered with meeting the dogs up but both pups are not keen and Schmoo even snapped at her. Ironically my 12 year old has taken her in his stride.

I am on a bit of a downer at the moment. I think now that the dogs will be picking up from me that l am tense. She is so Tiny her tail is not even 3 inches long. She is like a chunky little kitten! i could'nt believe that Schmoo snapped like that - he is always the subserviant dog.

I just hope things work out alright. Annoyingly the other receptionist is not coming back to work for at least another week! That means that l am out all day for the third week on the trot. I was planning this week to try and settle Katie in and get back to some training with the mutts. Also the house looks a tip! I managed to get my sittiing room done while the dogs played in the garden and Katie slept in her cage, but my usual method of house work is too move stuff from one room to another! Tommorow the porch, bottom hall and stairs and top hall.

I hope you have a lovely time with your DD and your guests coming over. Has Tootsie sicked up what she ate? I remember when l took in my rescued GSD we had to be careful about what he ate. He weighed in at 56lbs which is shocking for such a large GSD. You could feel his bones on his back and when he scratched under his front leg - l swear we could hear him hit every one of his rib bones.

Well we took him out for a short walk as he was starting to recover only to find that he ran straight into the long grass and started eating something. You could'nt blame him after he had been starved. By the time we had got to him he had devoured most of the left overs of a KFC box that some moron had thrown out of his car while passing through the village. I can tell you l was so worried about those chicken bones but amazingly he passed them ok. His digestion system was alway dodgy so how he managed to survive that is a miracle in itself.

Anyway l do hope she is ok and that you are feeling better after your cold. Wish me luck with the mutts!


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

I have just posted a reply to your new thread too but just to let you know that she wasnt sick so whatever it was she ate must have been alright - little pest  Spent 8 hours in the car picking up my daughter and bringing her home with a moaning dog all the way there and all the way back - she probably slept for about an hour but the rest of the journey she complained. I dont know what to do about it now as she gets excited to go into the car and I have spent time playing with her in the car. She is ok'ish on motorways but as soon as I turn a corner she moans. I dont want to leave her for that long at home so I have to take her so am just hoping that she will eventually give up and just settle down. We didnt get home till 1am and I have spent today sorting out the house and buying food as well as running around after my daughter, taking the dog out for walks, doing the washing and also had a try at putting up our new tent  just a normal day really - am exhausted but wide awake  
My neighbour is looking after his daughters springer spaniel so he lifted him up to have a look into our garden and to say hello - lol. He is a lovely dog and I am really lucky to have great neighbours.
Right well I am going to have a look through a few threads on here and then try to get to sleep - I do hope that Katie is alright, she sounds lovely.


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi there Kittysoo, how is it going with Katie? I hope she is settling in well now.

I have had Tootsie at the vets today. I noticed on sunday night that she was a bit quiet and today she looked a bit sad. She went into phantom pregnancy after her last season so I kind of knew what to look out for and I have caught it early this time. So £30 later, I have a tiny bottle of drops to give her for the next 6 days which should sort it out as she responded really well to them last time. I booked her in to get spayed but also posted on here about the cost as I was quoted £150 by my vet. Upon the advice from here I have booked her into Vets 4 Pets and they have quoted £80 - quite a difference  I am going to be a nervous wreck when I take her into get it done though. My poor baby  anyway she is being spoilt at the moment as she is a bit down and Im sure she will be spoilt rotten when she has the op too


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi TM

Your poor little girl - bless her Its amazing how much the vets charge. I paid £104 for Schmoo (small dog) and yet his parents owners are paying £65 at the PDSA and that is for someone who is not on benefits. And on top of that spaying is so much dearer. It can be a real rip off!
Katie is doing ok despite not eating very much. I will post on dog chat soon with an update but she is settling in.

Amazingly Seiger is the best with her and Schmoo just wants to ignore her. She is trying to play with them and occassionally they will play back but they are so rough and tumble that she gets bowled over. I get scared that she might break something.

I had my late Lucy spayed after her first season and it was the best thing for her. Never had a phantom pregnancy though. You do have to watch their weight though as it does have a tendancy to go up. I wish l had been more strict with myself when it came to Lucys eating. She was always a foody dog bless her.

Anyway let us know how Toots gets on .


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi Kittysoo - hope Katie is alright? oh dear I have eaten far too much and so has Toots lol. I had a BBQ tonight and it has suddenly hit me how much I have eaten ( and drunk  ) I couldnt believe Toots though - she actually played ball with one of my friends' kids who she normally tries to go for if she goes anywhere near her. This was probably because she was fed a lot of sausage and beefburger but she was actually gentle with my friends daughter. We were all watching very closely ( and I mean VERY closely ) as she has never bitten but has snapped at them. My friends daughter was telling her to sit and she did and then throwing the ball for her and she was fetching it - I know that sounds quite normal for a dog but Toots has never played like that before. Dont get me wrong I still wouldnt trust her and she will always be watched closely but it was nice to see her playing in the garden. So I am hoping that the training that I have been doing with her is actually paying off at long last. She is flat out on the floor - bless. 
How is things with your neighbours? I hope they have quietened down a bit. Is your daughter home yet? I am off to pick my daughter up for half term in a couple of weeks but we are going camping for a few days near london before we come back home - all good fun lol


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi Tootsiemum

So glad to hear that the training with Toots is paying off. Playing fetch with your friends daughter is a big step for her and l know what you mean that other dogs owners find that natural. Anything that my dogs do with other people is a big step for me as l know that my nervousness passed through to them. Just one positive thing and l can feel my confidence handling them get better. Mind you one negative thing and l am back to square one.

Amazingly l thought l was in big trouble last night as somehow Scamper managed to get through a piece of fencing into next door! Was waiting for the usual tirade about the dogs when all of a sudden HE called over "its alright my duck, l've got him"! I could have dropped down dead with shock over the complete turn around and then l realised that SHE the lodger's car was not there! 
It was probably a tempory truce and he will be back to his (macho) self when she is about next.

Anyway the fence is his and he said that it beginning to rot in places so he will replace it soon. I have hedging on my side and so could'nt see where Scamper got through.

Now about Katie - she is settling in fine and although just a week older is running to me when l call her. She is a little biter so l give a little scream and then distract her with something else.
Yesterday she had her first injection and was a little star, not a peep. Licked the vets face and wanted to play.
My vet thought she was a lhaso apso pup and was suprised when l told her that she was Schmoos liitle sister!

All the boys want to play with her but sometimes they get too excited and rough and she gets scared, so l have to break it up. Yesterday after the vets we all went for a walk around the a couple of roads in Towcester and then a quick visit to the park. The boys were really good with the traffic going past and Katie observed from her puppy carrier and took it all in and finally dozed off on the way home. I had taken them all for a run over the hill before the vets to make sure of no accidents. All of them were really good at the vets and Scamper is definately a people person - all waggy tail and kisses.

Talking of Scamper - he has to be kept on a long lead now as his recall is rubbish. DH says that walking the dogs is no joy because of Scamper being disobedient and because Seiger piles in to play with him and breaks up him playing with Schmoo. He just wont let Scamper get to his feet and that is when Scamps loses his temper. We then have to put Seiger on the lead which is a shame.

I told Bob to occasionally call Scamper and then pull him in if he refuses. The first thing he did wrong is using the wrong command. I always say Come and he has started to use Here. I have told him not to confuse him.  Also when l told him to real him in all l got from was - l told you he would'nt do as he was told and so on. DH has no patience! He also needs to imagine how he is going to handle the situation before it arises. I can see when the weather gets bad - he will give up on these walks and leave it all back to me again.

My daughter has moved back in with us and l am beginning to lose my sanity! DH +DD have one thing in common - trying to drive me to an early grave. If only they could unite in other things as l am beginning to feel stuck in the middle again. Nikki still has to clear out her flat and get it ready for the next occupant - ie: clean it!

Anyway must go now and do some housework before going to work. I am in the process of getting a few pictures together on the computer and then l will add them to my signature. I think you might be able to see them if you look in my album but l am not sure. I'm not very good with computers!

PS Have bathed the 3 oldest dogs but before that decided to clip Schmoo. I think we might have got a bit carried away as he looks a completly different dog and you can only recognise him by his eyes. I think we might have gone a bit over the top.. I will try and get the before and after shot photos on here tonight.


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## pommania (Nov 5, 2007)

tootsiesmum said:


> yes she is pomeranian and they are part of the German Spitz family ( the German Spitz Klein was bred smaller and smaller till the pomeranian was born but I have just had a look on Google and the German Spitz was made protected in 1994 to keep their size ) Tootsie was the runt so is very small ( 12" tall ) and her face although it is very cute is not a good example of a pom - but does look more like a minature version of a spitz  hmmmm you have made me think about this now - perhaps I should call her a minature German Spitz Klein instead of a Pomeranian as she really does look more like one. The pics on google of a spitz look more like her than a pom although a pom can be called a Dwarf Spitz too so I think I might call her that in future. Have put the pics below to see what you think
> 
> German Spitz Klein
> 
> ...


Hi
If you go and check the history of the breeds you will see that what was the german spitz is now registered as German spitz Klein and Mittel this was in 1985. There were all bundled in together as pomeranains but the size differeances were too great and these breed classifications were proposed and accepted to protect each breed with it's own standard and i'm afraid your dog would be considered a spitz.
German Spitz World - the premier site for all German Spitz enthusiasts and breeders

German Spitz World - the premier site for all German Spitz enthusiasts and breeders
In the meantime the three (Tum-Tum, Velvet, and Folly) had been mated with the Pomeranian breeds in the UK and also to each other, due to the KC registering them as Poms. This caused major problems. It was decided to form a separate club, after opposition to two sizes of Pomeranian by the small Pomeranian breeders and a decision was taken to attempt to get recognition for a breed separate from the Pom called the German Spitz. Despite revelations that some of the above mentioned dogs had in fact been registered in Holland as Dwerg Keeshonden which was in fact Pomeranians when translated and after lots of talks with the KC in the UK they agreed that there would be two sizes of German spitz to be called Klein (small) and Mittel (middle) and any progeny from the 'First four dogs could be added to the German spitz register. The puppies to be registered as German spitz who had only one of the four in their breeding would be put on a development register, whilst puppies with two of the first four as their sire and dam would be registered as full German spitz in one of the two sizes. The owner to decide which size. Once registered there was to be no interbreeding of sizes and an agreement was required that The newly formed German spitz club would agree to no colour/markings barred. You now have our present day German spitz in two sizes in the UK. They are gaining popularity due to their happy disposition and the high placings reached in both Crufts and championship shows around the country giving them a higher profile in the media. Challenge Certificates (C.C.'s) were first awarded in the breed at Crufts in 1995 and in November 1999, the club had its first Championship show.

Size: 
Kleins 23-29 cms (9 - 11 ½ inches) Mittels 30-38 cms (12 - 15 inches) Dogs masculine, bitches feminine.

Pomeranians if bred correctly should be smaller than this, 20cm or 8 inches. and around 3lb-5lb for males - bitches
Zoe x
pommania poms


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## tootsiesmum (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi Pommania  thankyou for the information - I will have to try to remember to call her a German Spitz Klein in future as I keep forgetting and when anybody asks I just say Pomeranian  its mostly kids that ask though so they are probably none the wiser as they normally think she is a Chuauha (sp?) Have you got any pics of your Pom's? would be lovely to see them.
Hi Kittysoo - how are your lot doing at the moment. Good to hear your neighbour is being a bit more friendly - lets hope it lasts  
Toots is going to get spayed on Monday  I am panicking about it even now as I have to take her on a car trip to get there so she will be in a state even before I take her to the Vets  I think there will be a lot of threads from me next week asking daft questions about spaying and healing times  they are going to clip her nails too while she is under anaesthetic as I refuse to do them after the last time lol. 
Well I am still decorating and getting ready for next weekends' camping trip - fingers crossed for nice weather. My DD will be home after that for a week too as it is half term. 
Right I must get off this forum and actually do something today  have a nice weekend


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