# My breeder is SILENT!



## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

I have a 5 years old male Lagotto Romagnolo and I have been approached by Golatiere du Trepont (France) - which was again recently awarded No. 1 kennel in France in 2012 and 2013 ... a great compliment.
I wish to proceed with hip scoring/tests etc., and I have emailed my breeder about the temporary lifting of endorsements - but she will not respond. 
Does anyone know if the French kennel will require the endorsements to be lifted before they proceed with the breeding?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lynneharvey said:


> I have a 5 years old male Lagotto Romagnolo and I have been approached by Golatiere du Trepont (France) - which was again recently awarded No. 1 kennel in France in 2012 and 2013 ... a great compliment.
> I wish to proceed with hip scoring/tests etc., and I have emailed my breeder about the temporary lifting of endorsements - but she will not respond.
> Does anyone know if the French kennel will require the endorsements to be lifted before they proceed with the breeding?


You can't lift endorsements temporarily, once lifted, that's it, they can't be replaced. If you have a copy of the contract, approach the kennel club, they may be able to help you.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Have you tried ringing the breeder? I've found breeder's don't always respond to emails.


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

BessieDog said:


> Have you tried ringing the breeder? I've found breeder's don't always respond to emails.


Ditto.
Try ringing.


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

Definitely try ringing and talking to your breeder and good luck!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

lynneharvey said:


> I wish to proceed with hip scoring/tests etc., and I have emailed my breeder about the temporary lifting of endorsements - but she will not respond.


What was in your original contract about any possible lifting of endorsements?


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank you ... there is no point in ringing her and I know that she has received my emails as she was 'discussing' my email at the recent AGM so I was informed. This is all about control of the breed, and she doesn't want me to use Archie as a stud as it interfers with her stud dog (still using Archie's sire to breed - and he's a JE carrier too!!!). we have an exceptionally small gene pool in the UK with this breed and I want to try and widen that. I have approached the KC about appealing these endorsements and they were very helpful but unable to help as the endorsements were placed correctly.
I have spoken to some people and they reckon that because the puppies will be born and registered in France under their KC ... that I don't need to worry about the endorsements on Archie. I will NOT be bringing a puppy back to the UK so I don't think I need to worry about registering with the UK KC. I will be taking one of their bitches, but not a puppy from the mating.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I wouldn't go against the endorsements without either the permission of the breeder or the KC personally, no matter how much you *think* it's in the best interests of the breed. Was your pup sold under a contract of sale? If so, what does it state about endorsements and how were they explained to you. If the breeder placed them and explained that they wouldn't be lifted, there's nothing you can do I'm afraid. 

I don't know what JE is but if it's fairly simple to breed clear from, particularly in a small gene pool I'm not sure that it's fair to hold that against the dog. It doesn't in any way detract from the overall dog as long as he's a prime example. 

Also, have you campaigned your dog at all to prove his worth? Ie shown him? What knowledge do you have to know for certain he's such a good example and *should* contribute towards the gene pool either here or abroad? 

Apologies if any of that sounds negative, but looking at it from the point of view that I'd sold you that pup I'd be really annoyed if you went behind my back and allowed a mating to take place, even if it is a loophole (and I strongly suspect it might not be) it's a pretty poor show. 

The other thing about stud dogs is that generally speaking, if you like the look of a dog, you look at the sire, so I'm suspicious as to why someone would want to use a dog that has produced no progeny in this way, rather than the sire. Of course every dog used at stud has to start somewhere, but for such an important mating, it's baffling to me why they'd use a dog with no proven record? Even one that hasn't had health tests done yet, as you state in your first posts you'd like to start health tests. Seems very odd to me


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

I can only agree with the above... You bought a pup in good faith under contract. The only way forward is to have further discussions with the breeder or legal advise re breach of contract


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

This was my first pedigree dog and so I was naive ... the endorsements weren't explained at all (I didn't even know what an endorsement was until much later when we were approached about breeding) .. I was handed a puppy and given a contract to sign at the same time. If I didn't sign the contract, then I wouldn't have been given the puppy - that simple! I am not trying to go against the endorsements, but my question is more about whether a foreign bitch with puppies, being registered in another country would actually be interested in Archie's endorsements anyway???.

JE is Juvenile Epilepsy and Archie's sire is a carrier. You cannot breed carrier to carrier. I have had Archie tested and he is CLEAR. I have also had him tested for Lysosomal Storage Disease and he is also NORMAL. I have tested for Short Coat/Furnishings and he is CLEAR. The only thing that I haven't tested for yet is hips. If these are not good, then I will not breed.

I have been campaigning Archie for the last two years - we've been Top Import for a couple of years at the GBAS and this year we managed a 3rd in Limit Dog at Crufts! So, he is a good example of the breed. I was approached by Golatiere du Trepont (awarded TOP french kennel in 2012 and 2013) about a possible mating and I just wanted to clear it with my breeder as a matter of courtesy. But I'm not dealing with a lady here and I forgot that.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Then speak to someone with legal expertise, whether you stud in this country or abroad you are in breach of contract and could be liable to prosecution. Most endorsments are based on the level of test done and confirmation of breed type. Without seeing what is exactly written it is too hard to speculate.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lynneharvey said:


> This was my first pedigree dog and so I was naive ... the endorsements weren't explained at all (I didn't even know what an endorsement was until much later when we were approached about breeding) .. I was handed a puppy and given a contract to sign at the same time. If I didn't sign the contract, then I wouldn't have been given the puppy - that simple! I am not trying to go against the endorsements, but my question is more about whether a foreign bitch with puppies, being registered in another country would actually be interested in Archie's endorsements anyway???.
> 
> JE is Juvenile Epilepsy and Archie's sire is a carrier. You cannot breed carrier to carrier. I have had Archie tested and he is CLEAR. I have also had him tested for Lysosomal Storage Disease and he is also NORMAL. I have tested for Short Coat/Furnishings and he is CLEAR. The only thing that I haven't tested for yet is hips. If these are not good, then I will not breed.
> 
> I have been campaigning Archie for the last two years - we've been Top Import for a couple of years at the GBAS and this year we managed a 3rd in Limit Dog at Crufts! So, he is a good example of the breed. I was approached by Golatiere du Trepont (awarded TOP french kennel in 2012 and 2013) about a possible mating and I just wanted to clear it with my breeder as a matter of courtesy. But I'm not dealing with a lady here and I forgot that.


If the breeder is unwilling to speak to you, really, the only route is through the KC, and you will just have to keep pestering them I'm afraid.

At the time of sale the breeder must fully explain endorsements, but as you've signed a contract that probably states these endorsements were explained and you agree to them, it's going to be difficult to disprove that. But that's really your only route if the breeder isn't going to speak to you even. And I would avoid any inference about ethics because it could come back to haunt you.

As far as JE is concerned, if it's a simple matter of only breeding to clears to breed away from the condition, to me, that's perfectly acceptable and doesn't detract from the dog at all. All that's different between your dog and her dog, is that the genetic status is different, neither will develop the condition, and used judiciously, they shouldn't produce any affected pups either.

I find it really sad that you don't have a good relationship with the breeder, and that's not a comment about you as you've obviously tried. I love hearing about Tau's pups and had one in particular been interested in showing and possibly taking a litter I'd have helped them all the way.

But back to the topic, really, the KC is your only route, I know you said you've spoken to them, but did you make them aware the endorsements were not explained in full at the *point of sale*?


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

So this is your first pedigree dog but you think that you know better than the breeder who has spent years establishing her line? This is exactly the situation that contracts are put in force to avoid.

My sympathy is with her I'd afraid and I wouldn't support you going against the contract that you signed.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

chances are that it says in the contract about the endorsements- if you didn't read it before signing that isn't the breeders fault i'm afraid.
i am appauled that she won't reply to you, but if it states in the contract that endorsements are not to lifted i'm fairly sure that's that. 
what breed is he? 
did you ever mention that you were going to show and possibly stud him? does this breeder own the sire and dam of your boy? if not, you could try approaching the stud owner? or talk to your breeder at a show?


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

He's a Lagotto Romagnolo. She owns both sire and dam. She was responsible for pioneering the Spinones quite a number of year ago and left that breed in not the best of terms. I got Archie in 2008 ... at that time (still actually) and when I contacted the Lagotto Romagnolo Club of Great Britain she was the secretary and I was told that there was only one breeder which was her. There are still too few breeders as we ALL have this endorsement on our pups and therefore she won't allow us to breed ... even overseas where I think we are opening up the gene pool with some really good examples of the breed.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Ill be Ethan Hunt...

find the breeders advert, get someone to approach them about buying a dog (or use a non-specific email address they wont know), ask em to ring you on a number they wont recognise...


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

Okay - just spoken to someone to resides between France and the UK and is heavily involved with dog and showing etc., and just for clarification ... I won't be breaking my contract as it doesn't state that I cannot use Archie as a stud, just that the puppies won't be eligible for UK KC registration. So as long as none of the puppies won't be imported to the UK and that I can provide 3 generation pedigree - which I can - I think I might be sorted.
I know that I will p*** off my breeder, but if she won't even respond to my emails requesting her help and advice ... then I'm at a loss as how to proceed in her good-favour.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

To put a endorsement on the KC registration is all that a breeder can do - they cannot stipulate that a dog or bitch cannot be used for breeding.

Maybe she knows of a problem behind your dog that you don't know about that she doesn't want to be reproduced?

Do you know enough about the health and temperament behind you dog (I mean personally know all the dogs in his pedigree as she does?) to know that you won't be doubling up on any problems with the bitch?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

lynneharvey said:


> Okay - just spoken to someone to resides between France and the UK and is heavily involved with dog and showing etc., and just for clarification ... I won't be breaking my contract as it doesn't state that I cannot use Archie as a stud, just that the puppies won't be eligible for UK KC registration. So as long as none of the puppies won't be imported to the UK and that I can provide 3 generation pedigree - which I can - I think I might be sorted.
> I know that I will p*** off my breeder, but if she won't even respond to my emails requesting her help and advice ... then I'm at a loss as how to proceed in her good-favour.


I don't know much about the French system, but as far as I'm aware, endorsements are only used by the UK Kennel Club so are meaningless overseas. France does have a different system of registration though.


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## Bedhead (Feb 10, 2014)

Westy said:


> To put a endorsement on the KC registration is all that a breeder can do - they cannot stipulate that a dog or bitch cannot be used for breeding.
> 
> Maybe she knows of a problem behind your dog that you don't know about that she doesn't want to be reproduced?
> 
> Do you know enough about the health and temperament behind you dog (I mean personally know all the dogs in his pedigree as she does?) to know that you won't be doubling up on any problems with the bitch?


Surely if the breeder is aware of potential problem with breeding from the OP's dog the sensible, adult, thing to do would be to discuss it with her? Rather then ignore the attempts to contact her.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Bedhead said:


> Surely if the breeder is aware of potential problem with breeding from the OP's dog the sensible, adult, thing to do would be to discuss it with her? Rather then ignore the attempts to contact her.


This!^^^^.


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

Okay - just phoned her and she picked up. She said that he has a bad back movement but is a fabulous temperament and his test results are okay! BUT, she's happy to let me breed with an Italian kennel but not with the French kennel who have approached us. I'm at a loss ...


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## Bedhead (Feb 10, 2014)

lynneharvey said:


> Okay - just phoned her and she picked up. She said that he has a bad back movement but is a fabulous temperament and his test results are okay! BUT, she's happy to let me breed with an Italian kennel but not with the French kennel who have approached us. I'm at a loss ...


Maybe she knows that the dogs from the French kennel suffer from the same fault, but the Italian ones don't. Did you not ask her to clarify why?


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

Yes, I did ask and she wasn't able to answer. Actually, it was the thing she mentioned about the french kennel - they had great movement. How can she offer to lift the endorsement for an Italian kennel - no particular one mentioned - and not one who is actually there waiting to mate. I personally think it is because she doesn't want me to breed Archie because it makes for competition


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

She can lift the endorsements or not, she can't tell you which kennels to use. I would personally, if you are sure it's the right thing to do, then just nod sagely and go along with it. Plenty of time yet for future plans. 

But, very important, I would take on board her advice, and maybe have other people help out with more experience as well. You never know, you may end up agreeing with her, or even bringing her round rather than simply going against her wishes completely. I know if one of my puppy owners wanted to use a dog and I had a reason for them not to, I would tell them the reason why, there's far too much secrecy goes on in breeding dogs.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

_Surely if the breeder is aware of potential problem with breeding from the OP's dog the sensible, adult, thing to do would be to discuss it with her? Rather then ignore the attempts to contact her._

Maybe not if they have decided that they don't want to share information about their breeding with someone who is trying to go against the endorsements.......... They made it clear at the point of sale that they didn't want to dog used. 

_ BUT, she's happy to let me breed with an Italian kennel but not with the French kennel who have approached us. I'm at a loss ..._
I would say that she knows more than you do about this. She isn't going to tell you detrimental things about a kennel that you are in contact with - thats not etiquette at all! You should respect her experience not question it when this is your first pedigree dog. I would be furious if someone did this to me.....


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

the owner of one of my poppets brothers had wanted to stud him even though they are endorsed, but he is 8lbs and has floppy ears. it would possibly be dangerous for her to have studded him to someone with a bitch who was within the breed size, the ears weren't my reasoning, but she took it on board and decided against it- he is still intact but not to be bred after i was able to explain the reasoning of why i'd rather not lift the endorsements.

it could simply be that she is worried that if she says anything about the kennel you are in contact with that it may reach them- maybe the dogs are not a good match in some other way- temperament, health or another conformation point... 


i'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, but she must have her reasons for not wanting him studded to that particular kennel- maybe they aren't as stringent on home checking or something as she'd like.
one of kukis brothers was bred without my knowledge (poppets uncle) and honestly when i found out i was livid- not that he'd been bred, but because i'd asked them to let me know so i could help (they bred him to a 7 month old 4 lb girl 'accidentally' ), but when i found out that one of those pups was being re-homed a while later i made a point of contacting them and letting them know that i had people wanting pups and got her homed that way- i felt very responsible for my pups pup. it could even be that that she is afraid of?


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok, just to stick up for Lynne here (although it will be hard with out slandering people!) please understand in the Lagotto world we do have a real problem!

Very hard to write on a forum without getting personal but from my own experience Lynne will be telling the truth and my advice is to follow your own instinct Lynne!


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

BlueBeagle said:


> Ok, just to stick up for Lynne here (although it will be hard with out slandering people!) please understand in the Lagotto world we do have a real problem!
> 
> Very hard to write on a forum without getting personal but from my own experience Lynne will be telling the truth and my advice is to follow your own instinct Lynne!


so you know the breeder in question? know her lines and know the french kennel that is spoken of? (don't mean that to sound rude if it does! sorry!)
again, i'm not siding with anyone, but i can't understand someone being willing to lift endorsements for a breeding with Any italian kennel, but refusing in regards to the french one. surely she has a reason?
if she just didn't want him bred that would be all her input, but refusing for one kennel but not others doesn't smell of someone trying to limit competition. surely if he is being studded to another country that reasoning doesn't hold?

OP, what have others in your breed said about this when you met them and discussed it? you said that others in the breed where able to confirm she'd received your emails etc, so what were their views on it all?

personally, i'd be getting people on board to start importing other lines if this woman in charge is as blinkered as she is sounding!


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

kodakkuki said:


> so you know the breeder in question? know her lines and know the french kennel that is spoken of?  (don't mean that to sound rude if it does! sorry!)
> again, i'm not siding with anyone, but i can't understand someone being willing to lift endorsements for a breeding with Any italian kennel, but refusing in regards to the french one. surely she has a reason?
> if she just didn't want him bred that would be all her input, but refusing for one kennel but not others doesn't smell of someone trying to limit competition. surely if he is being studded to another country that reasoning doesn't hold?
> 
> ...


No you are right (and you don't sound rude), I don't know the breeders lines nor the French kennel other than seen some of their dogs and as I am not a breeder nor had Lagottos long I can't say why Lynne has had trouble with the French kennel (except they approached her) over some nameless Italian kennel. Although I do know the breeder.

I don't like to get involved in the breeding threads normally as I have never bred and have learnt a lot on this forum. Just here most people are ethical and honest and believe all other breeders are the same but they are not 

And your last point is exactly what needs to happen!


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

I don't think that anyone is thinking that the OP isn't truthful - just that she doesn't understand the experience and knowledge that her dog's breeder has, which should be respected whether you agree with it or not.

Trying to remove or ignore endorsements is not the way to make friends and influence people when you have your first pedigree dog and are learning about a new breed. :yikes:


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

Westy said:


> I don't think that anyone is thinking that the OP isn't truthful - just that she doesn't understand the experience and knowledge that her dog's breeder has, which should be respected whether you agree with it or not.
> 
> Trying to remove or ignore endorsements is not the way to make friends and influence people when you have your first pedigree dog and are learning about a new breed. :yikes:


Just to straighten something out I am not trying to remove endorsements from my dog!

Lynne has had Lagottos for many years and shows them regularly. She is very knowledgeable about the breed and has been a great help to me when we have met with health issues and grooming hints.

Boe might be my first pedigree dog and I might be new to the breed but that is nothing to do with Lynne


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BlueBeagle said:


> Just to straighten something out I am not trying to remove endorsements from my dog!
> 
> Lynne has had Lagottos for many years and shows them regularly. She is very knowledgeable about the breed and has been a great help to me when we have met with health issues and grooming hints.
> 
> Boe might be my first pedigree dog and I might be new to the breed but that is nothing to do with Lynne


I think the comments were about the OP, not you.

It must be harder in such a numerically small breed, everyone knows each other, where as with a numerically larger breed, there are always a lot more options.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

Hold tight Blue Beagle - it was the OP that I was referring to..............


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh ok, thought because I said I was new to the breed and learning about them you meant me 

Very rarely do I know anything but I do know both people involved and know the situation must be awful, I will shut up now :lol:


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

I have spoken at length to my breeder and please believe me that I am not ignoring her experience or knowledge. She gave me the best dog in the world. I know that she has had problems when lifting an endorsements previously which she thought was only for one mating and then there were additional matings taking place with the person that she was not happy about. She doesn't want Archie to be used as a stud dog per se and when I realised this, I tried to confirm that I wished only with this particular kennel in France as I am not interested in becoming a breeder, only seeing my wee lad's genes go on. She has offered to have his ownership transferred back to herself temporarily and then remove the endorsements which will be reinstated after the mating has taken place and she will then transfer ownership back to me :closedeyes:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't know of any way you could temporarily transfer ownership, same as with removing endorsements, you transfer ownership and that's it. That said, you can transfer ownership back to you, but only if you trust the person in the first place. 

Could you place your boy into joint ownership under a contract where by you are responsible for his ownership but that you jointly agree breeding decisions?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

lynneharvey said:


> I have spoken at length to my breeder and please believe me that I am not ignoring her experience or knowledge. She gave me the best dog in the world. I know that she has had problems when lifting an endorsements previously which she thought was only for one mating and then there were additional matings taking place with the person that she was not happy about. She doesn't want Archie to be used as a stud dog per se and when I realised this, I tried to confirm that I wished only with this particular kennel in France as I am not interested in becoming a breeder, only seeing my wee lad's genes go on. She has offered to have his ownership transferred back to herself temporarily and then remove the endorsements which will be reinstated after the mating has taken place and she will then transfer ownership back to me :closedeyes:


Sorry to jump in, just curious: why on earth is she suggesting to transfer ownership?? I would never agree to that, personally.


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

No, I'm not happy about the suggestion, I was just posting what had been suggested to me. 
At the moment, I am still considering breeding with the French kennel - as the progeny will not be registered in the UK and so I don't need that particular endorsement lifted by her. I am not break my contract because it doesn't state that I cannot use my dog as a stud, just that 'progeny will not be registered' and also that I cannot export him which is something that I wouldn't even consider.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't know of any way you could temporarily transfer ownership


It can be done, and often is.... it's just a change of ownership which can then be changed back.

But I would question why she wants to retain so much control. Dog politics are often strange and complex. I am guessing she realises that if you went ahead with the French mating then endorsements are no obstacle, so she is trying to gain some control by suggesting a transfer (which I would not agree to - your dog is *your* dog, *end of*).

I'd be asking around a bit more and trying to find out what her objection to the French kennel is. Perhaps that have a poor reputation that you've not yet heard of, or it could be as simple as she isn't on good terms with the kennel owner. As I said - it's complex.

PS: If you want to know your legal rights in this, to the letter, consult Trevor Cooper. But from what I gathered in the seminar I attended, it's *your* dog to do with as you wish.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> It can be done, and often is.... it's just a change of ownership which can then be changed back.
> 
> But I would question why she wants to retain so much control. Dog politics are often strange and complex. I am guessing she realises that if you went ahead with the French mating then endorsements are no obstacle, so she is trying to gain some control by suggesting a transfer (which I would not agree to - your dog is *your* dog, *end of*).
> 
> ...


Is there any etiquette, or do you simply trust the other party? I'm pretty sure there's nothing set in stone to say, transfer for six weeks/months, and then back again. I think you would have to trust the other party 100%


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Is there any etiquette, or do you simply trust the other party?


Contract drawn up by a solicitor is preferable, but they are hard to enforce.

What would be the worst that could happen *Lynneharvey*? You allow the French to use him - you fall out with all the Lagotto folk in the UK (your name might well be mud), you'll never get another Lagotto from them again, but would that bother you? When you could potentially have one of his offspring or grand-kids back from France? Could you handle threats of court action and the stress of that, even if they come to nothing? I guess some of it depends on what YOUR future plans are.


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

First and to be clear .. I do not trust my breeder ... not at all.
There is nothing wrong with the French kennel - they were awarded TOP Kennel for 2012 and 2013 - there are no genetic links between the kennels. She just doesn't want me to breed with a good and well known kennel - which is very strange to me because its her name out there. Ah well, don't know if it would come to legal action ... what is she prosecuting me for ... breeding my dog. It doesn't say anything in my contract that I can't breed him just that there are two endorsements X and R. What legal action can she take against me. As for my name being mud ... that's not going to happen as I'm known in the UK fairly well and not everyone is keen to contest her authority but I know they would like it tested ... if nothing else ... to see where they can go with their endorsements on their dogs.


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

To answer another question about why the Italian kennel and not the French kennel ... that's easy. There is no offer YET from an Italian kennel and who's to say when there is one, if there is one, that she wouldn't then just turn around and say 'NO'. The fact that the French kennel is there with an offer right now ... that's what the problem is. She doesn't want me to breed my dog - FULL STOP. Its NOT down to genetic lines, because we can easily trace those and he's clean as is their bitch and he's had some of the gene tests done already and all so far all have been clear ... only to do the eyes and hips now.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> It can be done, and often is.... it's just a change of ownership which can then be changed back.
> 
> *But I would question why she wants to retain so much control*. Dog politics are often strange and complex. I am guessing she realises that if you went ahead with the French mating then endorsements are no obstacle, so she is trying to gain some control by suggesting a transfer (which I would not agree to - your dog is *your* dog, *end of*).
> 
> ...


I have no idea about this breeder but would guess that she would then put the endorsements back before transferring ownership to the OP. You can only put endorsements on a dog while they are registered to you so if she lifted them while registered to the OP that would be it. But if the dog was transferred back to breeder, the endorsements could be lifted, he could be used and then the endorsements could be put back on before transferring back. Does that make sense? LOL

Although, I'm not sure that there's any point in lifting endorsements if you're only using him on the French bitch. It won't stop the litter being registered.

Has she now changed her mind about using him on the French dog as long as he's in her name?


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

ha ha ... I hadn't mentioned that bit ... but when she suggested that I transfer ownership to her she then asked why I wasn't using a UK bitch. I was astounded, because she has ALWAYS told me that there wasn't a suitable bitch for Archie in the UK - lines are too close was her explanation. But now ... seems there might be a bitch or two available. Do you see where I am going with this ... its not solely about health (it is for me) but more about ownership of the litter.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

*You* do, what *you* want to, with *your* dog.

Just make sure some of his progeny qualify for Crufts and come over in 2 years' time


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## loopylori (Feb 10, 2014)

After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the breeder is in her own little elite club and just does not give up any control of her breed. She is enjoying being Queen.

I know you are not going to nor do you want to but what would happen if you sold the dog to someone else. Or aren't you allowed to do that either?


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

It wouldn't matter if I sold the dog to someone else as the endorsements will move with him and I cannot sell him overseas as that is one of the endorsements and I would be breaking the contract. 
I am not, as far as I'm aware, breaking the contract if I allow him to mate with an overseas bitch as the puppies will be registered overseas and therefore won't have to have UK KC registration withdrawn from them. My contract doesn't say that I can't mate Archie ... only that the puppies will not be UK KC registered and that I can't sell him overseas.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

lynneharvey said:


> It wouldn't matter if I sold the dog to someone else as the endorsements will move with him and I cannot sell him overseas as that is one of the endorsements and I would be breaking the contract.
> I am not, as far as I'm aware, breaking the contract if I allow him to mate with an overseas bitch as the puppies will be registered overseas and therefore won't have to have UK KC registration withdrawn from them. My contract doesn't say that I can't mate Archie ... only that the puppies will not be UK KC registered and that I can't sell him overseas.


Are you aware the French KC registration is very different from UK registration. They are only fully KC registered once they have been assessed and passed the assessment. I'm not sure of the detail, but full registration is not given to puppies.


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

Okay - I don't know the procedures for the France KC registration, but I guess that is the french kennel's problem and not mine. As long as I'm not breaking my contract and obviously making sure that the puppies aren't in the UK because the can't have UK KC registration and its being withheld by the breeder.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

lynneharvey said:


> Okay - I don't know the procedures for the France KC registration, but I guess that is the french kennel's problem and not mine. As long as I'm not breaking my contract and obviously making sure that the puppies aren't in the UK because the can't have UK KC registration and its being withheld by the breeder.


Oh, I assumed you were planning on bringing a puppy back as you were saying the gene pool needed widening in the UK.


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

No, I wasn't bring a puppy but I had agreed with the kennel to take one of their bitches, not related to the kennel or Archie and therefore bring 'fresh blood' to the UK


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

i have a suggestion for your dilemma which, with any luck, may yield an amicable, satisfactory and productive solution for ALL parties.

My perception of what you wrote is this: your 5 year old boy has proven himself in the showring and whilst you may not have harboured any breeding plans when you bought him, since being approached by this French Kennel owner, you now, ortho clearances permitting, would like to allow him to be used by them.

I am still unclear whether this means that you are happy for your boy to be used on ANY of that kennel's bitches or on a SPECIFIC female which you deem would make a great mate for your dog.

The only seeming fly in the ointment is your boy's breeder's reluctance to lift the " not eligible for breeding" endorsement. After being contacted by you she first played dead and was incommunicado, then it turned into a rather convoluted, obstruse scenario whereby she'd lift it for an Italian dog but not the French dogs but wanted temporary transfer of ownership.

Frankly, from afar it all sounds rather barmy. So barmy that it would be easy to dismiss the breeder as unreasonable, capricious, pigheaded and/or just wanting to protect her own breeding turf.

However...

......whilst the above MAY be her only motives, she MAY equally have a valid rationale which she is reluctant to divulge. For instance, she may have heard that this particular kennel, whilst highly successful in the showring, is not particularly ethical in how they keep and breed their dogs. Or particularly discerning and judicious when selling their pups.

And she simply doesn't want that for one of her dog's offsprings. But since it may all be based on hearsay, she doesn't feel comfortable in sharing this with you. For one because she likely doesn't relish being sued for slander. For the other because she wants to avoid the wrath of the French kennel guys when meeting them next in the showring.

All of this is pure speculation, of course. But often when peple don't say anything, like she did initially, they do so not out of dismissiveness, but because they don't know how to say what they want to say without getting themselves into some pretty darn hot water.

But there is a way around it. A method for you to verify whether she is unreasonably pigheaded or legitimately concerned.

Why not write to her with the offer that you would greatly welcome the opportunity to visit the French Kennel with her BEFORE she removes any endorsement? And if, upon inspection, either one of you is unhappy on how that breeder keeps their dogs, selects new owners, etc, etc, you will not proceed and you will not ask for the endorsement to be lifted again?

Look...she knows and you know that if you are truly hellbent on using your dog as a sire, be that on this French female, or any other one, as long as the bitch's owners don't care about a bit of paper from the KC, you can do so anyhow. Endorsements or not, you are your dog's owner and not a glorified dog sitter for his breeder. True, this would mean a breach of contract, but the KC ALSO stipulates explicitly that any endorsements have to be fully explained, that there has to be FULL disclosure, to the PPO PRIOR to sale and transfer of ownership. Thus, in view that she neglected to do this, SHE breached and violated those endorsement stipulations first. 

If she doesn't take you up on the offer to visit the French breeders, nor summon the courage to openly state why she won't budge from lifting the endorsement, I'd be inclined to say that she could go whistle with her refusal. As it clearly isn't based on any valid objection. "Because I said so" wouldn't suffice, dissuade or do it for me.

Still, whatever her decision, the most pivotal question is this : how well do YOU know the French kennel ? Wouldn't it be prudent for you to go and suss out how and where all their dog's live BEFORE you agree to trundle over with your dog and his sperm? Surely you would want to verify how and where YOUR boy's offspring will be whelped and raised. How they select their PPO's and what rescue measures they have in place if an owner doesn't work out?

I don't mean that nastily, but doing just that really is YOUR responsibility if you want to breed ethically. Being very flattered to be asked is completly understandible, but nowhere near a good, nor moral enough, reason to consent to using your dog. It would be short-sighted, and potentially heartbreaking, to deduce that just because a kennel successfully exhibits their dogs that this is inextricably linked to decent dog ownership. 

So, at least this time - please look, and most carefully - before you leap and go into this venture with your eyes wide open.

Good luck!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lynneharvey said:


> I have spoken at length to my breeder and please believe me that I am not ignoring her experience or knowledge. She gave me the best dog in the world. I know that she has had problems when lifting an endorsements previously which she thought was only for one mating and then there were additional matings taking place with the person that she was not happy about. She doesn't want Archie to be used as a stud dog per se and when I realised this, I tried to confirm that I wished only with this particular kennel in France as I am not interested in becoming a breeder, only seeing my wee lad's genes go on. * She has offered to have his ownership transferred back to herself temporarily and then remove the endorsements which will be reinstated after the mating has taken place and she will then transfer ownership back to me* :closedeyes:


I don't know anything about breeding, showing etc - but this sounds major dodgy to me! If she is unscrupulous, she could keep your dog - and even if she doesn't do that, what is to say that she doesn't put him to other bitches while he is under her care?

Personally I wouldn't touch this with a barge pole!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Soooo can I ask why you want to breed him, if you are not keeping a puppy from his line? Not being cynical here but from reading this, I take it you are getting a bitch from them in place of a stud fee? So you are then planning to breed from that bitch in the long term? Am I right in saying Archie is 5 if you had wanted his lines to carry on why wait till now to stud him? 

Would you be so interested in studding him if you weren't getting a bitch in return? It is totally your dog to do with what you want, but for me I find it all rather sad, you brought a puppy with endorsements, but now you want to ignore them? It's not all about power for a lot of breeders it about protecting their puppies and their breed.

I personally would be interested to hear the breeders side of the story too, as it is sad when puppy owners and breeders fall out but like in all things in life there are always 3 sides to every story, your side, their side and the truth. We on this forum tend to push ethical breeding yet I find it strange that we are hearing one side of the story here and people are recommending the OP goes against the breeders wishes! OP said herself that the breeder had lifted endorsements for others for one litter and it had been abused, power hungry queen or someone trying to protect their lines and actually giving a dam what happens to their pups in the long run? We are so quick to say the KC and show world I'd full of unethical breeders who don't care, yet when one seems to it's a case of "bugger it do what you want it's your dog" ??????????


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

The kennel and bitch in question just won Best Bitch at our class at Crufts! It is a good mating and a good kennel (awarded TOP French kennel in 2012 and 2013). Why have I never been interested in breeding Archie before ... I HAVE!!!! But because almost ALL the bitches/dogs in this country are in some way endorsed back to my breeder and therefore no one can opt out of this - so breeding him has been impossible so far, in the UK (or so I thought!). We was approached at Crufts by the French kennel when they had a chance to go over Archie in person and they liked him so much so that they enquired about mating with him and that's when I tried to contact my breeder about this. Strange though, that as soon as my breeder asks me to temporarily transfer ownership to her, that she can suddenly find TWO UK bitches to mate with!!! I will never transfer ownership back to her as I do not trust her. 
I am not interested in the monetary value (I know some of you will scoff at this), but I am interested in seeing Archie's lines carry on (whether or not I have a puppy or a bitch from their kennel is something that I haven't really though about in any great detail yet) ... he HAS proved his worth in the ring, his health tests have all so far been CLEAR and he's qualified as a Pets As Therapy and so he's proved his temperament too! He is a good (not perfect) example of the breed and given that our gene pool is so small, bringing fresh and foreign blood back to the UK is only a good thing I thought.
I am happy to forward the email communications that I've had with my breeder, and you can then see for yourself that she constantly contradicts herself in justifying why she won't lift the endorsements (these email communications have always been copied to both breed clubs), but I don't particularly want to publish it here. If you genuinely would like to read and understand more, please let me know.
And finally ... I TOTALLY agree with endorsements coming with puppies ... BUT I think there should be conditions that if you meet these conditions that they can be lifted ... my endorsements seem to be FINAL and TOTAL with my breeder and these endorsements were NEVER explained to me! I got the contract to sign at the same time as she handed me a puppy.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I agree to a degree with what Meezey says, but at the same time if the breeder isn't even responding to your enquiries, I think that that is inappropriate.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lostbear said:


> I agree to a degree with what Meezey says, but at the same time if the breeder isn't even responding to your enquiries, I think that that is inappropriate.


She has now though.


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

Yes .. she has responded by stating that she will mate him to a UK bitch IF she has temporary ownership of him!!!! Does this NOT mean that she finds him okay as breeding stock ... but NOT under my ownership :confused1:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lynneharvey said:


> The kennel and bitch in question just won Best Bitch at our class at Crufts! It is a good mating and a good kennel (awarded TOP French kennel in 2012 and 2013). Why have I never been interested in breeding Archie before ... I HAVE!!!! But because almost ALL the bitches/dogs in this country are in some way endorsed back to my breeder and therefore no one can opt out of this - so breeding him has been impossible so far, in the UK (or so I thought!). We was approached at Crufts by the French kennel when they had a chance to go over Archie in person and they liked him so much so that they enquired about mating with him and that's when I tried to contact my breeder about this. Strange though, that as soon as my breeder asks me to temporarily transfer ownership to her, that she can suddenly find TWO UK bitches to mate with!!! I will never transfer ownership back to her as I do not trust her.
> I am not interested in the monetary value (I know some of you will scoff at this), but I am interested in seeing Archie's lines carry on (whether or not I have a puppy or a bitch from their kennel is something that I haven't really though about in any great detail yet) ... he HAS proved his worth in the ring, his health tests have all so far been CLEAR and he's qualified as a Pets As Therapy and so he's proved his temperament too! He is a good (not perfect) example of the breed and given that our gene pool is so small, bringing fresh and foreign blood back to the UK is only a good thing I thought.
> I am happy to forward the email communications that I've had with my breeder, and you can then see for yourself that she constantly contradicts herself in justifying why she won't lift the endorsements (these email communications have always been copied to both breed clubs), but I don't particularly want to publish it here. If you genuinely would like to read and understand more, please let me know.
> And finally ... I TOTALLY agree with endorsements coming with puppies ... BUT I think there should be conditions that if you meet these conditions that they can be lifted ... my endorsements seem to be FINAL and TOTAL with my breeder and these endorsements were NEVER explained to me! I got the contract to sign at the same time as she handed me a puppy.


I'd rather not as they are private! Just to me it seems wrong to just say do what you want it's your dog! Given the gene pool in so small and the numbers are so low, looking at Crufts results and show results your breeder seems to be the main kennel here, so how will you bring fresh blood in if most of the dogs will be endorsed? Maybe she has spoken to the club and would rather keep her lines in the UK rather than France? Just me seem what you see a negatives looks like her trying to work with you? She discussed it at the AGM, so was giving it consideration, offered to lift them with conditions given she has been bitten so to speak in the past, now researching and finding you suitable bitches in UK, I just read things differently and as I said we only have one side of the story!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Just to say I have been round the sides of show rings, and round breeders WAY to long and am a bit to long in the tooth to just accept one side of a story  there is ALWAYS more to it  Just to me the puppy is endorsed was sold with endorsements, I don't see the breeder from what you said point blank saying no to lifting them, but is trying to work with you...


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

lynneharvey said:


> The kennel and bitch in question just won Best Bitch at our class at Crufts! It is a good mating and a good kennel (awarded TOP French kennel in 2012 and 2013). Why have I never been interested in breeding Archie before ... I HAVE!!!! But because almost ALL the bitches/dogs in this country are in some way endorsed back to my breeder and therefore no one can opt out of this - so breeding him has been impossible so far, in the UK (or so I thought!). We was approached at Crufts by the French kennel when they had a chance to go over Archie in person and they liked him so much so that they enquired about mating with him and that's when I tried to contact my breeder about this. Strange though, that as soon as my breeder asks me to temporarily transfer ownership to her, that she can suddenly find TWO UK bitches to mate with!!! I will never transfer ownership back to her as I do not trust her.
> I am not interested in the monetary value (I know some of you will scoff at this), but I am interested in seeing Archie's lines carry on (whether or not I have a puppy or a bitch from their kennel is something that I haven't really though about in any great detail yet) ... he HAS proved his worth in the ring, his health tests have all so far been CLEAR and he's qualified as a Pets As Therapy and so he's proved his temperament too! He is a good (not perfect) example of the breed and given that our gene pool is so small, bringing fresh and foreign blood back to the UK is only a good thing I thought.
> I am happy to forward the email communications that I've had with my breeder, and you can then see for yourself that she constantly contradicts herself in justifying why she won't lift the endorsements (these email communications have always been copied to both breed clubs), but I don't particularly want to publish it here. If you genuinely would like to read and understand more, please let me know.
> And finally ... I TOTALLY agree with endorsements coming with puppies ... BUT I think there should be conditions that if you meet these conditions that they can be lifted ... my endorsements seem to be FINAL and TOTAL with my breeder and these endorsements were NEVER explained to me! I got the contract to sign at the same time as she handed me a puppy.


Out of interest - HAVE you invited the breeder to go for a viewing to the French Kennel as I suggested?

Or have YOU meanwhile gone to visit that kennel for a look n'see?

You keep mentioning the accolades and that they were "awarded TOP French kennel in 2012 and 2013". But this award came from ....WHOM? The French Kennel Club? Satisfied puppy owners galore? Or...who?

Allow me to share the very recent experience of an aquaintance of mine. Who used to breed but due to various time restrictions and commitments now just shows. She was looking to buy a new show prospect from a VERY renowned kennel and went to....let's be vague and call it...a Northern European country.Spookily, ALSO awarded TOP KENNEL and TOP PRODUCER of the year.

What she saw made her turn on her heels and hastily depart. In tears. And she REALLY ain't the fluffyduffy, emotive, sentimental kind. Lets just say that if a kennel breeds a large enough volume of dogs, is ruthless in culling all which deviate marginally from what they want....it is a given that they WILL produce some outstanding dogs who will do well in the ring. But they are just glorified BJB.

Not saying that your "awarded TOP French kennel in 2012 and 2013" kennel is like that. But unless you have a physical inspection of it - how do you know? I ask again - don't you WANT to know?

You won't be able to bully your dog's breeder into lifting the endorsement, nor get the KC to do it for you. But if you are after her blessing, or at least her begrudging, reluctant consent, try convincing her with FACTS and charm. And further persistance.

For what it's worth, my take is that you are entitled to have YOUR wishes objectively heard and considered by her. Not because you bought and own one of her dogs, cared for it, loved it, and met all expenses associated with having a dog. But because every time you took this dog into a showring and he did well, it provided excellent and free PR for HER kennel. You spent the last 5 years promoting HER kennel and in exchange she isn't prepared to to allow you to establish and start your own ?

So....ARE you going to view that French kennel for yourself?

Or do their accolades and mere interest in your dog really suffice?

If it is the latter... pity. It doesn't suffice.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

lynneharvey said:


> Yes .. she has responded by stating that she will mate him to a UK bitch IF she has temporary ownership of him!!!! Does this NOT mean that she finds him okay as breeding stock ... but NOT under my ownership :confused1:


Oh...I missed that.

She evidently has a full membership to the "i want to keep my cake AND eat it" Club. Quite partial to obtaining a membership myself. Infuriatingly, tedious notions of "fairness" or common sense usually obstruct this Holy Grail of having it all ways.

But surely.... THIS is your opportunity.

Respond with a tempting counter offer. Negotiate that she can use him once on a bitch of her choice - under YOUR ownership, under your supervision - and, even more alluringly, for free ( = you let her pocket the stud fee ). But in exchange she has to remove the endorsement beforehand.

Since there is no love nor trust lost between you, have a soliciter draw up the corresponding agreement. True, there are the solicitor's fees to consider - but a straight forward simple legal agreement isn't that expensive
...and if it gets you ultimately what you want?

People don't negotiate enough. Many hear "no" and start sulking, pouting and digging their heels in. Unwise.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Out of interest - HAVE you invited the breeder to go for a viewing to the French Kennel as I suggested?
> 
> Or have YOU meanwhile gone to visit that kennel for a look n'see?
> 
> ...


This had never even occurred to me! How naive am I? Yes - you should look at the kennels if this sort of thing takes place - you might find that this is why she doesn't want you to breed with their bitches (though she could have explained that over the phone).

I know you said she has been forced out of other breed organisations, but that might mean that she isn't prepared to put up with some of the dodgy practices that go on, even with some of the best respected breeders - I know I was shocked at a BBC expose a few years ago, taking the lid off the dog world. One woman knowingly bred from a CKC dog with syringomelia, with no thought for the pain she was going to cause for any puppies who inherited it, or the expense and heartbreak of the buyers.

I'm not saying that this is the case here, but Meezey has opened my eyes to the possibility that it may not be open and shut. I still think she owes thou the courtesy of a discussion, though, and a reason why she's reluctant to lift the endorsement while the dog is under your ownership. Though I still wouldn't sign over my dog if it was me.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

So I have been thinking! Why did this French Kennel chose your dog? Why not others who have been campaigned longer. Why not ask the owner of best dog? Or Reserve best dog? Their breeding seems to be from one male and two females? Why haven't they chosen dog from their country or Europe, who is titled and proven?


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank you to everyone involved in this post, but I have seen it become a bit of a slag fest and so I want to stop it here as it was never my intention when I posted my initial question when my breeder wouldnt respond to my numerous emails (incidently, I did receive a response from the French KC and they only require a 3-generation pedigree and are not interested in the endorsements for UK registered puppies). 
After some of you suggested I call her, I did ring her and after a lengthy chat it became clear to me that she would NOT lift the endorsement with me as owner, regardless of which kennel or satisfactory health checks. As soon as she mentioned transferring temporary ownership back to her, she not only agreed to breed with the foreign kennel (so it is nothing about their quality and reknown), she also mentioned 2 UK bitches that could be used  BUT ONLY AS HER AS OWNER! So it doesnt matter what kennel, whether UK or overseas  it doesnt matter that all my health checks so far have been clear  it doesnt matter because it all comes down to the fact that she wants total control  and nothing will change this. I have communicated with the overseas kennel and made them aware of this very difficult situation and I imagine that they will steer clear of this situation, and I cannot blame them for this, but I wanted to be totally honest with them.
I would like to clear some things up though: 
I did NOT know about the endorsements prior to signing her contract, nor where they explained and nor do they carry conditions  this was my first pedigree dog and I was naïve! I assume that you, as responsible breeders, will explain to your new owners what these mean and the conditions that will have to be satisfied to allow them to be lifted .. this is NOT the case for me!
My breeder didnt discuss it at the AGM, she was gossiping and being malicious  I know this because I was told by someone at the AGM. She has NEVER considered it  and doesnt want to work with me  she wants the control and funds!
It has been mentioned about her being the main kennel for the results at Crufts  why do you think this is!!! She controls the majority of the UK breed because of these endorsements. When I came to the breed, there were only 2 breeders in the UK (her and her friend). We now have about half a dozen UK KC Assured Breeders, but this has only happened because these breeders have had to go overseas for mates or to import back to the UK because of my breeders TOTAL CONTROL policy and their determination to break her control and damage of this breed. She isnt and never has been an KC Assured Breeder. She was previously involved in another Italian breed which forcibly removed her from their club because a similar situation occurred with her control and subsequent damage of that breed. I LOVE this breed and want it to advance and grow in the UK.
My next lagotto  it will NOT be from here in the UK and I hope that the damage she is doing with the inbreeding in the UK be diminished in the future with responsible breeding and widening the gene pool.
Thank you.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wasn't a slagging???? You purchased a dog with endorsements, I don't think it's right to ignore them irrespective of the breeder "controlling" the breed, we only know one side of the story, my dogs breeder isn't a KC Assured breeder because she feels the scheme does not do enough for our breed yet she does a hell of a lot more for the welfare of the breed that any AKC breeder, it's not a gold stamp of excellence far from it. Sorry if you think it's a slagging match? Get a dog outside her lines without endorsements easier all round.


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

No - you misunderstand ... I meant ME beginning a slagging fest of breeder.:closedeyes:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lynneharvey said:


> Thank you to everyone involved in this post, but I have seen it become a bit of a slag fest and so I want to stop it here as it was never my intention when I posted my initial question when my breeder wouldnt respond to my numerous emails (incidently, I did receive a response from the French KC and they only require a 3-generation pedigree and are not interested in the endorsements for UK registered puppies).
> After some of you suggested I call her, I did ring her and after a lengthy chat it became clear to me that she would NOT lift the endorsement with me as owner, regardless of which kennel or satisfactory health checks. As soon as she mentioned transferring temporary ownership back to her, she not only agreed to breed with the foreign kennel (so it is nothing about their quality and reknown), she also mentioned 2 UK bitches that could be used  BUT ONLY AS HER AS OWNER! So it doesnt matter what kennel, whether UK or overseas  it doesnt matter that all my health checks so far have been clear  it doesnt matter because it all comes down to the fact that she wants total control  and nothing will change this. I have communicated with the overseas kennel and made them aware of this very difficult situation and I imagine that they will steer clear of this situation, and I cannot blame them for this, but I wanted to be totally honest with them.
> I would like to clear some things up though:
> I did NOT know about the endorsements prior to signing her contract, nor where they explained and nor do they carry conditions  this was my first pedigree dog and I was naïve! I assume that you, as responsible breeders, will explain to your new owners what these mean and the conditions that will have to be satisfied to allow them to be lifted .. this is NOT the case for me!
> ...


The endorsements have to be explained to puppy buyers at the point of sale, otherwise you can ask the KC to lift them. When I sold Tau's pups, I had a contract of sale that had a separate sheet listing the endorsements, and what they would have to do for me to lift them. They were sent a copy of this right from going on the waiting list, and I explained it all before we signed all the copies to say they'd been explained, and they understood it all. If that didn't happen when you bought your boy, then there's every chance the KC can lift them for you.

I'm afraid there's a lot of people involved with showing and breeding I wouldn't touch with a very long barge pole, I'm fortunate enough that I've never ended up with a pup from someone that I regretted buying from. I can't imagine how awful that must be.


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank you ... I have already contacted the KC and because they have my signature on that contract they won't intervene. However, I had thought that because my husband's signature is not on it (we have always been joint owners), that the KC would allow the lifting of the endorsements, but they subsequently advised that one signature is enough ... regardless of the circumstances surround this actual signing. 
I agree with endorsements ... they are there to safeguard the puppy and the breed ... but surely there must be conditons that go along with the endorsements that if these are satisfied then the endorsement can be lifted - but not with my breeder unfortunately.
As for the health of the breed - and whilst I didn't want to 'slag' anyone ... here I go :scared: ... I have to advise you that she allowed the 'accidental' mating of her Spinone and Lagotto - only three years ago! Also, in the 5 years that I have been involved with the breed ... I know of 3 other 'accidental' matings - and because of this we have problems with some dogs with CA and JE! Archie's sire is a JE carrier, although thankfully his dame was not and I've had him tested and he's clear.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lynneharvey said:


> Thank you to everyone involved in this post, but I have seen it become a bit of a slag fest and so I want to stop it here as it was never my intention when I posted my initial question when my breeder wouldnt respond to my numerous emails (incidently, I did receive a response from the French KC and they only require a 3-generation pedigree and are not interested in the endorsements for UK registered puppies).
> After some of you suggested I call her, I did ring her and after a lengthy chat it became clear to me that she would NOT lift the endorsement with me as owner, regardless of which kennel or satisfactory health checks. As soon as she mentioned transferring temporary ownership back to her, she not only agreed to breed with the foreign kennel (so it is nothing about their quality and reknown), she also mentioned 2 UK bitches that could be used  BUT ONLY AS HER AS OWNER! So it doesnt matter what kennel, whether UK or overseas  it doesnt matter that all my health checks so far have been clear  it doesnt matter because it all comes down to the fact that she wants total control  and nothing will change this. I have communicated with the overseas kennel and made them aware of this very difficult situation and I imagine that they will steer clear of this situation, and I cannot blame them for this, but I wanted to be totally honest with them.
> I would like to clear some things up though:
> I did NOT know about the endorsements prior to signing her contract, nor where they explained and nor do they carry conditions  this was my first pedigree dog and I was naïve! I assume that you, as responsible breeders, will explain to your new owners what these mean and the conditions that will have to be satisfied to allow them to be lifted .. this is NOT the case for me!
> ...


I apologise for my earlier criticisms - the more you explain about this breeder, the less ethical she appears. I am so glad that I don't breed, because I bet this sort of stuff goes on all over.

I do hope that you manage to get this very unpleasant situation resolved, and that you and others succeed in breaking the totally unreasonable stranglehold she appears to have on the breed. Protecting your puppies and maintaining the health and standard of the dogs is one thing, but this seems excessive.

It appears to be a minefield of unethical breeding and behaviour, even from big name kennels and breeders. How on earth can anyone know where to turn?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lynneharvey said:


> No - you misunderstand ... I meant ME beging a slagging fest of breeder.:closedeyes:


Lynne sorry if I sound like I'm being a bitch here, the reason I'm being like it is that in the show world there are too many half truths rumours, and people back stabbing, I am BTW not saying you are doing this, too many people hear something and run with it and suddenly what was a tiny issue of a dog having a bad day in the ring suddenly becomes all their lines are aggressive, their dog badly injured a dog or person the dog tried to rip the judges throat out when it merely just didn't want to show it's teeth I also know some relish in rumour mongering about people doing well in the ring or who breed certain lines blah again not saying you are doing this just unless I hear it or see it with my own eyes I am always a bit cynical. I don't breed I don't even show (OH has done it for 20 years) but it never ceases to amaze me how even life long friends can fall out over dogs, I think as a breeder the more litters you have the more chance there is that at some stage you will clash with a puppy owner or puppy owner will clash with breeder, even though some people like to make out they are perfect breeders they aren't falling out with puppy owners is par for course of a breeder not everyone can get along all the time  II think if you want them lifted you have to go the KC route, I also think that if you just decide to go ahead it might come back to bite you in the ass, because like anything competitive your friends can quickly become your foes  I am a firm believe of 3 sides to every story, if the KC won't lift them then maybe cut your losses and start you own breeding plans with dogs outside the UK, that way your not control by the endorsements of others but you will have to enforce your own....


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

I can completely understand a breeder who is responsible for bringing a numerically small breed into the UK wanting to control the breeding. 
She is the one with the knowledge and experience, knowing everything that is behind the dogs. 
I think that I would feel exactly the same if a novice with their first dog of this breed, wanted to use the bloodlines to breed. In fact I would be furious and certainly not want to work with them, especially if I had dogs of equal or better quality available. Sorry.


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154008571380647&set=a.10150280290530647.529502.705630646&type=3&theater

After all the discussion ... I thought it would be nice to show you my lad .. here he is ... At Crufts 2014


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

Enjoy him!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lynneharvey said:


> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154008571380647&set=a.10150280290530647.529502.705630646&type=3&theater
> 
> After all the discussion ... I thought it would be nice to show you my lad .. here he is ... At Crufts 2014


He is lovely!


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## crazylablady (Apr 25, 2014)

As your boy has also got an endorsement which means he's 'Not Eligible for the Issue of an Export Pedigree' I'm not sure where you go with using him on the French bitch in any case. Both endorsements would have to be lifted. The suggestion by the breeder that you could transfer him over to her temporarily is fraught with all sorts of problems, she could refuse to transfer him back. Is there anything in the contract which states under what circumstances the endorsements would be lifted or is it just a case of they're there and that's it?


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

My endorsements seem to be final with no conditions being set in the event of allowing them to be lifted. Thats my problem. However my endorsement only states .. progeny not eligible for registration. I have emailed the French kennel club and they are not interested in this endorsement as they think it is only relevant to UK registrations. They have asked me for a 3 generation pedigree which I have.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

lynneharvey said:


> My endorsements seem to be final with no conditions being set in the event of allowing them to be lifted. Thats my problem. However my endorsement only states .. progeny not eligible for registration. I have emailed the French kennel club and they are not interested in this endorsement as *they think* it is only relevant to UK registrations. They have asked me for a 3 generation pedigree which I have.


that would not be good enough for me by a long shot! it doesn't overly matter what the guy Thinks... you'd need a more definite answer than that imo- and in writing. call our own kennel club and ask their advise- they can tell you if it matters to outside kennel clubs or not...
even if you don't stud him, there is nothing to stop you from importing one of their bitches- since they seem to trust you perfectly fine to have one of their girls to widen the gene pool here with!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

lynneharvey said:


> I have a 5 years old male Lagotto Romagnolo and I have been approached by Golatiere du Trepont (France) - which was again recently awarded No. 1 kennel in France in 2012 and 2013 ... a great compliment.
> I wish to proceed with hip scoring/tests etc., and I have emailed my breeder about the temporary lifting of endorsements - but she will not respond.
> Does anyone know if the French kennel will require the endorsements to be lifted before they proceed with the breeding?


If you send a dog to France - any UK KC endorsements are nul and void.

The French KC have a two tier registration system whereby they will register pups at birth / import - but to obtain full registration, they have to go through the conformation process from 18 months onwards.

As has already been explained - once endorsements are lifted they are lifted - but if you don't already have an answer to your question, I should be able to check the situation with regards to your dog siring pups in France and what effect (if any) the UK endorsements will have - my suspicion is none


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## lynneharvey (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank you everyone for your postings. I have emailed the French KC and they are NOT interested in the endorsement X Progeny Not Eligible for Registration - as it applies ONLY to UK registrations.


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