# Veil/no veil



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

The government has pronounced itself reluctant to ban the full face veil, no doubt they don't want to lose brownie points with an important sector of the voting public  However, some countries have already banned it. In France, for example, state education and religion are totally separate so no religious symbols are allowed. 

I think it should be banned for several reasons. It is impossible to identify the wearer. It is subjugating women and gives, in my opinion, a seriously poor impression therefore. At no point does the qur'an say that women should wear it. 

Thoughts?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think it should be illegal to hide your face at all in public, no matter what race or religion, with the only exception for those who suffer from some sort of injury or illness that makes them uncomfortable allowing people to view their face.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Im opposed to full face veils, if they really have to hide from society then piss off to mars.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

I think any face covering should be banned in public!, and hope that it IS


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I think if they want to wear it, then they should be able to. I can't say it bothers me.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Most banks require you to remove bike helmets on walking in, hoodies are banned in some shopping malls because they semi disguise identity.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think it should be illegal to hide your face at all in public, no matter what race or religion, with the only exception for those who suffer from some sort of injury or illness that makes them uncomfortable allowing people to view their face.


Or ninjas?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> Im opposed to full face veils, if they really have to hide from society then piss off to mars.


Or stay indoors


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> The government has pronounced itself reluctant to ban the full face veil, no doubt they don't want to lose brownie points with an important sector of the voting public  However, some countries have already banned it. In France, for example, state education and religion are totally separate so no religious symbols are allowed.
> 
> I think it should be banned for several reasons. It is impossible to identify the wearer. It is subjugating women and gives, in my opinion, a seriously poor impression therefore. At no point does the qur'an say that women should wear it.
> 
> Thoughts?


I feel that banning people from wearing religious symbols is not respecting people´s right to freedom. People should be allowed to wear what they want especially if it is so important to them. A lot of moslem women wear the veil because of the importance it has to them and they do it freely. This is another example of "everyone do what I want". It is a personal decisión and nobody´s concern. We had a case of a girl here in Spain that was not allowed in school because she refused to take off the veil. Why is it right for the government to forcé people to do away with their beliefs?


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## witchyone (Dec 16, 2011)

Ban it. If you or I were to walk into a post office, petrol station,shop etc wearing a balaclava what would happen?. I used to live in an area that had a lot of Muslim presence and I found it quite unnerving that I could not see these peoples faces. I never did know what my neighbours looked like.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

If someone cant be identified in security cameras or by witnesses cos of a sheet over their head, and that is allowed. Then we are evolving backwards. To ban motorcycle helmets from a bank but not those makes zero sense and reeks of fear from the ones that can and should enforce the ban.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

merlin12 said:


> I feel that banning people from wearing religious symbols is not respecting people´s right to freedom. Why is it right for the government to forcé people to do away with their beliefs?


What about the freedom to see who is in the lift with you at work, for example, though? Or who is helping your child learn to read at school? And if that's the case (btw, the govt is refusing to ban it) why can a Christian working for BA not wear a crucifix?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

merlin12 said:


> I feel that banning people from wearing religious symbols is not respecting people´s right to freedom.


In a society where their are others besides ourselves we dont have the "right to just do as we please, and nor should we. Or I may feel like going nude cos my clothes make me feel smothered.


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

Another vote for banning here. I cant see how a religious symbol can be more important than peoples safety, sad that extremists have made us all feel this way. Got to say I would be unnerved at not being able to see someones face, its how we initially guage our safety for gods sake. We were asked to discuss this in university a few years ago and it divided us.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> Most banks require you to remove bike helmets on walking in, hoodies are banned in some shopping malls because they semi disguise identity.


going back a few years, BUT we had a member on here whose Aunt and Grandmother were asked to remove their nephews/grandsons balaclava in a shopping centre!
Think the little boy was , if I remember correctly THREE at the time!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

DT said:


> going back a few years, BUT we had a member on here whose Aunt and Grandmother were asked to remove their nephews/grandsons balaclava in a shopping centre!
> Think the little boy was , if I remember correctly THREE at the time!


Clearly a master criminal!!


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

cinnamontoast said:


> What about the freedom to see who is in the lift with you at work, for example, though? Or who is helping your child learn to read at school? And if that's the case (btw, the govt is refusing to ban it) why can a Christian working for BA not wear a crucifix?


Why do we have to see people´s faces? Not everyone you can´t see their face is dangerous, in short most aren´t and it´s just as bad a Christian can´t wear a crucifix.


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## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

I have to admit I'm conflicted on this. I am happy that we live in a country that allows freedom of expression and religious beliefs but I'm very uncomfortable with the tones of female subjugation inherent in the full face veils. It also strikes me as impractical from a security perspective and quite anti-social and segregating, too. I've never tried to talk to someone with their face completely covered but I find it hard to relax talking with someone who is wearing opaque sunglasses so I'd imagine it would be even harder.

The trouble is most people (quite rightly) don't want to cause offence by speaking out about something they don't fully understand. I don't know if the women wearing them are being forced or choosing to. If they are making the choice themselves, is it an informed one? I struggle to understand why anyone would choose to live like that but I'm agnostic and a lot of religious beliefs leave me scratching my head.

So, from a purely practical perspective I'm against them but practicality rarely has much to do with religion and I'm not going to tell people what they should believe.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

No.

As sure as eggs are eggs, if I was an eighteen year old Muslim woman full of myself and my teenage arrogance, and people wanted to ban the veil, you'd have to tear it off my dead body before I took it off. I would want the choice. 

If someone doesn't want to communicate with me in a private capacity then that is fine with me. Even commercially I can choose where to spend my money. Where it is harder is when it not a private/commmercial capacity but a public (court, hospital, school) one, and then I think I do have the right for full face communication.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> Why do we have to see people´s faces? Not everyone you can´t see their face is dangerous, in short most aren´t and it´s just as bad a Christian can´t wear a crucifix.


Well just one reason, but was just a guy on the news who is death and has to lip read!


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

i cant decide, but then im like that about a lot of things
im all for human rights but also think that seeing faces is important even though you can read a lot just from the eyes anyway,

in winter i always have a thick polo neck jumper which ends up over my chin up to my eyes as my teeth hurt so much, but i would always pull it down to go in a shop, not a great comparison , i just feel is manners,like taking your hat off or sunglasses

but in the veiled communities they feel it is bad manners to unveil

i ll let you know when i ve decided


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

just ban religion, problem solved.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> The government has pronounced itself reluctant to ban the full face veil, no doubt they don't want to lose brownie points with an important sector of the voting public  However, some countries have already banned it. In France, for example, state education and religion are totally separate so no religious symbols are allowed.
> 
> I think it should be banned for several reasons. It is impossible to identify the wearer. It is subjugating women and gives, in my opinion, a seriously poor impression therefore. At no point does the qur'an say that women should wear it.
> 
> Thoughts?





cinnamontoast said:


> Most banks require you to remove bike helmets on walking in, hoodies are banned in some shopping malls because they semi disguise identity.





merlin12 said:


> I feel that banning people from wearing religious symbols is not respecting people´s right to freedom. People should be allowed to wear what they want especially if it is so important to them. A lot of moslem women wear the veil because of the importance it has to them and they do it freely. This is another example of "everyone do what I want". It is a personal decisión and nobody´s concern. We had a case of a girl here in Spain that was not allowed in school because she refused to take off the veil. Why is it right for the government to forcé people to do away with their beliefs?





witchyone said:


> Ban it. If you or I were to walk into a post office, petrol station,shop etc wearing a balaclava what would happen?. I used to live in an area that had a lot of Muslim presence and I found it quite unnerving that I could not see these peoples faces. I never did know what my neighbours looked like.


I am torn on the issue...I agree with ALL of the above posts!

I do think it is unfair they/veiled can HIDE in situations where, other members of the public are not allowed to disguise their appearance airport, banks etc. What I call positive prejudice...

On the other hand Merlin12 makes a VERY important point... taking away individuals rights to dress as they want (religious or otherwise) is perhaps a slippery slope to a big brother state, that none of us really want! Do we? This government has been slowly taking away public rights during their term (ie. the publics right to protest in large numbers, in public places).

However I am of the school of thought, "when in Rome"..... Afterall, respect breeds respect! Of course that cuts both ways. But then for example most children HAVE to wear school uniform, but some can be exempt on religious grounds... kinda not fair in my book. NO child likes to wear uniform.....

Grrrr I am 50/50 on the matter...


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

It should be banned. 
It is not part of the traditional muslim faith to wear a full face veil, it is a law that extremists started. Many muslims wear it through fear. 

This is the uk and people need to learn to fit in, other countries especially in the middle east are very strict with foreigners fitting in to their laws so why can't we insist others fit into the ways of our country?


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

DT said:


> Well just one reason, but was just a guy on the news who is death and has to lip read!


:lol: no wonder he finds it hard :lol:

As to veils, scarves, headcoverings etc, the pillarbox type, if im honest frighten me as you don't know who or what is underneath. BUT, when the ladies wear the scarves which just cover their hair, I think they look really nice and theres so many gorgeous colours


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

porps said:


> just ban religion, problem solved.


WE have sooooo much in common...scary! :thumbup: :scared:

Or are you one of my many "alts"... ha ha?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's alien to me to communicate 'face to face' without being able to see that face. There's plenty of research been done to show how we as humans pick up on facial expression and how important it is. What I really don't like is how I'd then be perceived as a racist or a bigot because I'd choose a doctor or other professional advisor who was prepared to talk to me without a physical barrier to communication.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

tillysdream said:


> On the other hand Merlin12 makes a VERY important point... taking away individuals rights to dress as they want (religious or otherwise) is perhaps a slippery slope to a big brother state, that none of us really want! Do we? This government has been slowly taking away public rights during their term (ie. the publics right to protest in large numbers, in public places).
> 
> ..


 If a child had a baseball hat on in school they would be told to remove it! If an airways stewardess and a checkout operator are told to remove symbols then we have already lost the right to dress as we plz! And like the HALAL argument this is just another area where a minority want it all 'their' way!


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> Why do we have to see people´s faces? Not everyone you can´t see their face is dangerous, in short most aren´t and it´s just as bad a Christian can´t wear a crucifix.


Because there are already terrorist incidents where men have worn the burkha and avoided being detected.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

No crucifix or other religious necklace is going to cover a whole face.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> And if that's the case (btw, the govt is refusing to ban it) why can a Christian working for BA not wear a crucifix?


Exactly!

Though it paaaains me to agree with you (joking), I have to say it should never be one rule for one, and another rule for someone else. I feel our UK rights have decreased/been stiffled, while other religions have had their rights increased. Positive discrimination can cause alot of bad feeling, and totally understandablely so...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

welshjet said:


> :lol: no wonder he finds it hard :lol:
> 
> As to veils, scarves, headcoverings etc, the pillarbox type, if im honest frighten me as you don't know who or what is underneath. BUT, when the ladies wear the scarves which just cover their hair, I think they look really nice and theres so many gorgeous colours


Do you know I don't care about those, apart from is hospitals maybe where there could be a hygiene issue, it is the full face coverings that I am against!


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## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

Ban it.

I personally find it quite unnerving when someone with a face veil walks towards me.
I am equally unnerved if someone in a balaclava/helmet walks towards me too!
I have no idea who's underneath it be it female OR male...and yes, it could be either!
Also I do need to see someones face, if someone was to attack me in any way shape or form, I want to see their face!!



porps said:


> just ban religion, problem solved.


Agree...I've said this the whole of my adult life.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

If we go to a muslin country we have to abide by their rules, well they live here they should abide by ours. I'll really don't like to see the veil, you have no idea who is under it.


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

I found this...
Sheikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawy, previous dean of Cairo's Al-Azhar University, called full-face veiling a custom that has nothing to do with the Islamic faith. The niqab is a cultural tradition and has nothing to do with Islam.[27] The decision came from an incident in which he forced a school girl to remove her niqab during a visit to an Al-Azhar school, when Tantawy reportedly said that he would call for an official ban for the face veil in Islamic schools. Tantawy's decision stems from his views that more younger Muslims have lost touch with traditional Islamic scholarship and have come under the influence of extremist imams who have little or no formal training in Islamic scholarship.
In Europe, the niqab is controversial, and it has been banned in public in France, Belgium and The Netherlands.[28]

From this....Niq


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Valanita said:


> .
> In Europe, the niqab is controversial, and it has been banned in public in France, Belgium and The Netherlands.[28]
> 
> From this....Niq


Yeah! well the leaders of those countries have more balls they the bunch of muppets running ours who seem to be hell bent on knackering it!


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

Live and let live. Not opposed. If you didn't know the association between Paul O'grady and Lilly Savage - and he went out and about as Lilly - he would be in disguise, but you wouldn't be calling for all trannies to be banned from dressing up!!! Leave the wee ghosties alone. Halloween is on its way!


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DT said:


> If a child had a baseball hat on in school they would be told to remove it! If an airways stewardess and a checkout operator are told to remove symbols then we have already lost the right to dress as we plz! And like the HALAL argument this is just another area where a minority want it all 'their' way!


I agree, I did mention that in my post and my following post ie. school uniform and cruxifix mentioned.  x


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Happy Paws said:


> If we go to a muslin country we have to abide by their rules, well they live here they should abide by ours. I'll really don't like to see the veil, you have no idea who is under it.


and wearing a veil doesn't go against our rules cos it hasn't been banned yet.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I am not quite sure what the problem is here.wearing material that completely covers your face and possibly the rest of you or the fact this has religious/cultural associations.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Sorry but I really think the full face ones should be banned

To just see someone's eyes and nothing else .... nope

Being partially deaf I rely on lip reading (a lot) to be able to fully understand what's being said so I'd really struggle if someone had their whole face covered


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## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

DT said:


> Yeah! well the leaders of those countries have more balls they the bunch of muppets running ours who seem to be hell bent on knackering it!


Oh how I wish I'd written that, so well put :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

tillysdream said:


> taking away individuals rights to dress as they want (religious or otherwise) is perhaps a slippery slope to a big brother state, that none of us really want! Do we?r...


No it's not. If you want to be part of british society you adapt to the values of that society, not just ones on the statute books (laws). There are many different types of head covering which muslim women wear. Things like the chador are worn in Iran. You also have the hijab. It's only a minority of muslim clerics who advocate covering the face. Most agree that the face and hands can be seen.

If you want to wear a veil than you can move to a country which does allow it.

Didn't one of the July 7th bombers try to get away disguised as a woman wearing a niqab?


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Goblin said:


> No it's not. If you want to be part of british society you adapt to the values of that society, not just ones on the statute books (laws). There are many different types of head covering which muslim women wear. Things like the chador are worn in Iran. You also have the hijab. It's only a minority of muslim clerics who advocate covering the face. Most agree that the face and hands can be seen.
> 
> If you want to wear a veil than you can move to a country which does allow it.
> 
> Didn't one of the July 4th bombers try to get away disguised as a woman wearing a niqab?


Yes, the bomber did dress up as a woman and wore a niqab.

As I explained, I am totally undecided 50/50... I can see both sides.

Just because a British woman can be flogged/jailed in Saudi for wearing a bikini (their laws stifle our western dress choices), does that mean we have to stifle theirs in return?

I am playing devils advocate... Two evils (stifles) does not make a right.... Why can't we all accept we are different? Or maybe I am discussing a wider issue and not just the veil? ooopppssss


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Being a Muslim and actually knowing a lot of women who choose to wear it I do not see the problem. it is a case of choice. its not about oppressing women. They choose it, it does not make them any less of a person so what's the problem 

Next people will be getting told what clothes they can and can't wear eh

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> Being a Muslim and actually knowing a lot of women who choose to wear it I do not see the problem. it is a case of choice. its not about oppressing women.


If it's a choice is not on religious grounds then  I'm prevented from wearing a crash helmet in places on security grounds being denied the choice. What's the difference?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

tillysdream said:


> Why can't we all accept we are different? Or maybe I am discussing a wider issue and not just the vein? ooopppssss


Years ago many or these people decided to settle here for a better way of life , surely they would want to fit in rather then stand out! I don't buy this religion malarky , to e all it is about in continuing to keep the woman as second class citizens , and ruling them with a rod of iron as they would in their homeland - as someone has already mentioned there are only a couple of leaders /clerics that insist on the face being fully covered!

And yes I know we have british of this faith, and a lot have been born here!
In my view we are going backwards not forward, we'll be bringing back the ducking pond soon and witchcraft!


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

there is a lot more wrong with the world than people wearing burkas.

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

no veil..religion does not demand that...

headscarf ..is all you really must wear to cover your head and hair..




no person wearing veil should be a teacher/doctor etc..facial expression is essential..

this demand is also imposed by men on women making them "invisible"!

if we tolerate this, we tolerate lack of tolerance and really abuse..
what about ritual circumcision? in France they took tough stand on it..
on veil too!


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

What about morph suits, masks and scary clowns?


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

porps said:


> just ban religion, problem solved.


There would certainly be a lot less fighting - nearly every war / civil uprising can be traced back to religion


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DT said:


> Years ago many or these people decided to settle here for a better way of life , surely they would want to fit in rather then stand out! I don't buy this religion malarky , to e all it is about in continuing to keep the woman as second class citizens , and ruling them with a rod of iron as they would in their homeland - as someone has already mentioned there are only a couple of leaders /clerics that insist on the face being fully covered!
> 
> And yes I know we have british of this faith, and a lot have been born here!
> In my view we are going backwards not forward, we'll be bringing back the ducking pond soon and witchcraft!


Have you read my posts properly? I did say, SOME do not seem to want to fit in, so why do they come here if they don't appear to like our western liberal culture. I totally agree....

BUT I can see the other side, and how the Muslims that do wear it feel...

As I explained earlier, taking people RIGHTS away is a slippery slope...

I am off out for my nightly run (oh we have so much to catch up on, I am now a fitness freak). xxx


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> There would certainly be a lot less fighting - nearly every war / civil uprising can be traced back to religion


Religion has not caused the wars, it's been the excuse for it.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

tillysdream said:


> Have you read my posts properly? I did say, SOME do not seem to want to fit in, so why do they come here if they don't appear to like our western liberal culture. I totally agree....
> 
> But as I explained earlier, taking people RIGHTS away is a slippery slope...
> 
> I am off out for my nightly run (oh we have so much to catch up on, I am now a fitness freak). xxx


When did you ever know me to read anything properly?

continuing to allow the wearing of full face covering could be the start of a slipperly slope, (it may already be too late) how long before they want to marry off children, stone adulteresses to death, adopt sharia law, abort female fetus's? We already allow Halal slaughter which angers me beyond belief! Exactly when do we put our foot down and say NO ?
Enjoy you run! Ive always been a fitness freak


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

nothing much to add but i'm all for banning it!


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## witchyone (Dec 16, 2011)

facial coverings have no place in our society or culture, unless your a bride of course


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't believe in banning a certain style of dress especially just because some people just 'don't like it'. I also think it is very worrying to think that our way of dressing has to be monitored & regulated in such a way in all public places. I don;t think it has anything to do with 

However, I can see a need for having a persons face on show in certain areas for security reasons, for teaching (I do think it is important for communication in schools, etc) & also in hospitals or other areas when dealing with people, especially vulnerable people.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

DT said:


> continuing to allow the wearing of full face covering could be the start of a slipperly slope, (it may already be too late) how long before *they *want to marry off children, stone adulteresses to death, adopt sharia law, abort female fetus's? We already allow Halal slaughter which angers me beyond belief! Exactly when do we put our foot down and say NO ?


Just so you know, not all muslims believe in this sort of stuff, and it is not only Islam that practices such barbaric things. 
You don't need to worry. The majority of us muslims are very peaceful people, despite what the media says


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

DT said:


> we are going backwards not forward, we'll be bringing back the ducking pond soon and witchcraft!


We can't bring back witchcraft - it never left! It was misrepresented by the incoming Christian religion and forced underground, but it never left.

As for covering the face, I don't think that special dispensation should be made for it. I think that it should be allowed in situations where any face covering is allowed (eg walking down the street), and not allowed where it isn't (banks, airports etc). At schools, or anywhere where a uniform is stipulated, if it is not part of the uniform it should not be worn.

I also think that anyone who is performing a job of work that involves interacting with others (teaching, medicine, etc) should not be allowed to have any sort of face covering, be it a veil, a hood or even long hair that covers a good part of the face. If you have to interact with other people, facial expression is an important part of that interaction.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't believe in banning a certain style of dress especially just because some people just 'don't like it'. I also think it is very worrying to think that our way of dressing has to be monitored & regulated in such a way in all public places. I don;t think it has anything to do with


Am I allowed to walk down the street naked? That after all is my natural state of being. It's not socially acceptable so laws were made against it. I can still run around naked if I wanted to in certain areas however.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

merlin12 said:


> Why do we have to see people´s faces? Not everyone you can´t see their face is dangerous, in short most aren´t and it´s just as bad a Christian can´t wear a crucifix.


Seriously?! Because of security reasons and because it genuinely frightens the old and the very young. Of course out aren't dangerous, apart from the terrorist who disguised himself as a woman to avoid detection, of course.



Shadow And Lightning said:


> Being a Muslim and actually knowing a lot of women who choose to wear it I do not see the problem. it is a case of choice. its not about oppressing women. They choose it, it does not make them any less of a person so what's the problem
> 
> Next people will be getting told what clothes they can and can't wear


Reasons above and people are already prevented from wearing certain clothes eg those with swear words/inflammatory statements and can in fact be spoken to and threatened with Public Order offences. If it's choice, then it's nothing to do with religion and as already mentioned, it's only some extreme clerics with little scholarship who have proposed this.


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

While I fully understand and support religions and peoples choice to follow them , in no way should that choice be allowed to compromise other peoples safety. 
Wearing a veil allows anonymity , it could be anyone under there ... given the times we are living in common sense should always outvote religious wants , so I hope our government does make it law that a veil is not allowed


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2013)

I know a few women who look very different when they are plastered with make up and a fancy hair style from when you see them without either. And i mean you wouldnt guess they were the same person! Can we ban make up in public aswell? Oh and i see people wearing full face coverings everyday an never been scared etc. Guess it depends what your exposed to in life that sets your tolerance levels


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Am I allowed to walk down the street naked? That after all is my natural state of being. It's not socially acceptable so laws were made against it. I can still run around naked if I wanted to in certain areas however.


Why is it socially unacceptable not to see someones face? Personally I'm not bothered if I see a woman walking along the street in a full veil - why would I be?

If it were a situation where I was having a conversation, seeking advice, having a discussion, etc then yes I would like to communicate with someone fully & for me, that does involve seeing their face.

As for women just being out in public with a veil, plenty of people walk around town in the winter with woolly scarves covering most of their faces so why is this different?


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

but it is compulsory in islam, for both men and women to cover their body, not wear clothes that show ones shape etc, be modest and whtever. Which is where the burka comes in, it gives no shape to ones body, others choose to hide their shape in other ways. It is a matter of interpretation yes, but I don't think men force their women to wear it. 
I just don't understand why muslim women are already associated with oppression, that muslim men force the women to do what they want. It really is not like that. Again, influence of media.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> We can't bring back witchcraft - it never left! It was misrepresented by the incoming Christian religion and forced underground, but it never left.
> 
> As for covering the face, I don't think that special dispensation should be made for it. I think that it should be allowed in situations where any face covering is allowed (eg walking down the street), and not allowed where it isn't (banks, airports etc). At schools, or anywhere where a uniform is stipulated, if it is not part of the uniform it should not be worn.
> 
> I also think that anyone who is performing a job of work that involves interacting with others (teaching, medicine, etc) should not be allowed to have any sort of face covering, be it a veil, a hood or even long hair that covers a good part of the face. If you have to interact with other people, facial expression is an important part of that interaction.


Think I can live with that! Apart from walking down the street like


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I'm against a full ban - I'm very uncomfortable with stifling anyones beliefs ....regardless of if I agree disagree .....

They really do not bother me! I don't find them offensive or intimidating I think that's just an excuse for some people who are just anti muslim 

I do however think that in certain circumstances they shud b taken off ie in court, the airport and hospitals...

I don't think something shud be banned because of prejudices


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> but it is compulsory in islam, for both men and women to cover their body, not wear clothes that show ones shape etc, be modest and whtever.
> I just don't understand why muslim women are already associated with oppression, that muslim men force the women to do what they want. It really is not like that. Again, influence of media.


But people pick and choose, don't they? I've got Muslim girls in my classes, some wear a headscarf, most don't. Some are modest, some are frankly outrageous!

And if you want to tell me that Muslim women aren't coerced into what men want, please explain that to my Pakistani friend who was very nearly married off to a cousin on holiday against her will. Her father arranged it. It happens all the time. Perhaps you're from a liberal family.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> I'm against a full ban - I'm very uncomfortable with stifling anyones beliefs ....regardless of if I agree disagree .....
> 
> They really do not bother me! I don't find them offensive or intimidating I think that's just an excuse for some people who are just anti muslim
> 
> I don't think something shud be banned because of prejudices


I don't think little kids or old ladies crying because they're scared of the appearance is an excuse and I was just thinking how nice that this thread hasn't descended into a racist rant. You're the first person to mention prejudice. Shame.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

cinnamontoast said:


> But people pick and choose, don't they? I've got Muslim girls in my classes, some wear a headscarf, most don't. Some are modest, some are frankly outrageous!
> 
> And if you want to tell me that Muslim women aren't coerced into what men want, please explain that to my Pakistani friend who was very nearly married off to a cousin on holiday against her will. Her father arranged it. It happens all the time. Perhaps you're from a liberal family.


yeah people do pick and choose as with any religion but why should the people who choose to be modest and respect the religion be punished for it

ok arranged marriages... that is not religion that is culture. Usually when it comes to marriage culture and class is the reason. Not religion. I know it does happen. A lot of things happen, but its not all that common tbh


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## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Am I allowed to walk down the street naked? That after all is my natural state of being. It's not socially acceptable so laws were made against it. I can still run around naked if I wanted to in certain areas however.


You've done it haven't you?..... go on admit it! 



cinnamontoast said:


> But people pick and choose, don't they? I've got Muslim girls in my classes, some wear a headscarf, most don't. Some are modest, some are frankly outrageous!
> 
> And if you want to tell me that Muslim women aren't coerced into what men want, please explain that to my Pakistani friend who was very nearly married off to a cousin on holiday against her will. Her father arranged it. It happens all the time. Perhaps you're from a liberal family.


Same here, I have a couple of Muslim friends that tell me even in their own home they have to put their veil on to answer the door, in case its a man there...even the FiL


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

cinnamontoast said:


> I don't think little kids or old ladies crying because they're scared of the appearance is an excuse and I was just thinking how nice that this thread hasn't descended into a racist rant. You're the first person to mention prejudice. Shame.


But people can be scared of lots of things regarding appearances; facial piercings, tattoos, shaven heads, etc - do we ban them all so as not to upset anyone?


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

But as already mentioned, the full face veil is not really part of the Muslim religion. Hands and face can be shown.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> But people can be scared of lots of things regarding appearances; facial piercings, tattoos, shaven heads, etc - do we ban them all so as not to upset anyone?


They're known as identifiers and good point, but I don't think hiding who you are is the same as those. I do know a friend couldn't get into the police force he wanted because of his tattoo.

However, different thread, did the whole tattoo thing before and got some exciting posts  going to stay on topic here.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

cinnamontoast said:


> I don't think little kids or old ladies crying because they're scared of the appearance is an excuse and I was just thinking how nice that this thread hasn't descended into a racist rant. You're the first person to mention prejudice. Shame.


I'm just keeping it real! .....most people who are strongly against them have some sort of prejudice! Mostly about the muslim religion .....

There are many looks on the street that are far more scary and intimidating ....why are people not crying out for a ban on those???

And where am I ranting?? I'm giving my opinion calm down


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

cinnamontoast said:


> They're known as identifiers and good point, but I don't think hiding who you are is the same as those. I do know a friend couldn't get into the police force he wanted because of his tattoo.
> 
> However, different thread, did the whole tattoo thing before and got some exciting posts  going to stay on topic here.


I don't mean to go off topic but was trying to highlight that people seem to think their 'upset' is a good enough reason to ban things - it's not IMO.

I remember when parents complained their children were upset because a CBBC presenter only had one hand Apparently some parents thought this was distressing for them & wanted her taken off.

I just don't think that not liking something or find it worrying is enough to justify a ban. If there was a possibility of a security breach, a H&S issue, etc then yes, a veil may not be suitable & should be removed but not for just being out in a public place because some people don't like it


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> If it were a situation where I was having a conversation, seeking advice, having a discussion, etc then yes I would like to communicate with someone fully & for me, that does involve seeing their face.


If people were reasonable and accepted that, there would be no need for a ban would there  Instead we are told that on religious ground they shouldn't have to. They insist on this even when it compromises security and at places where everyone else has to follow set rules. Thing is, as mentioned already several times, it's not really religious grounds, it's choice. They also have the choice if they insist on it to move to a country which allows it and is part of the culture.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

When in Rome .............


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Goblin said:


> If people were reasonable and accepted that, there would be no need for a ban would there  Instead we are told that on religious ground they shouldn't have to. They insist on this even when it compromises security and at places where everyone else has to follow set rules. Thing is, as mentioned already several times, it's not really religious grounds, it's choice. They also have the choice if the insist on it to move to a country which allows it and is part of the culture.


But I think this is a minority, I know quite a few muslim people through work places & honestly do not know one who would object to this on a security reason
.
Also we are also talking about people who may have been born in this country, so not all have moved here, it is part of their culture in this country


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

..............throw Christians to lions?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> I'm just keeping it real! .....most people who are strongly against them have some sort of prejudice! Mostly about the muslim religion ....


Load of tosh..

People aren't saying ban other forms of identifying headress. Simply full face veils. They'd say the same about anyone covering their face all the time.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

cinnamontoast said:


> They're known as identifiers and good point, but I don't think hiding who you are is the same as those. I do know a friend couldn't get into the police force he wanted because of his tattoo.
> 
> However, different thread, did the whole tattoo thing before and got some exciting posts  going to stay on topic here.


What about someone who has toothache and goes outside with a scarf wrapped right around the bottom half of their face? Or anyone covering up the bottom half of their face with scarves chav, old lady, or for fashion....????

Can you see how ladies that wear the veil could feel "picked" on? If other people are alllowed to cover their lower face with scarves?

But I can also see how it is also seen as rude and unfair for veils to be worn in certain situations.

Personally, whilst I was on my mind clearing run... I came up with an idea, a middle ground so to speak.

Let these ladies wear the veil, when they are say out walking, on their way somewhere, out in the fresh air so to speak.

But as soon as they are in an office building, bank, supermarket, shop, airport, public building (you get my drift) where social contact/communication is important and needed, they MUST remove the veil? Just as chavs are told to take their hoods down, and bikers to take off helmets.

That way NO-ONE feels "picked" on, and all round more tolerant.

Would be a nightmare to Police, we would rely on everyone playing along fairly... So, maybe not workable???


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> But I think this is a minority, I know quite a few muslim people through work places & honestly do not know one who would object to this on a security reason


So do you think this minority should dictate to the rest of society? It's sad yes when rules which affect many are brought in due to the disruptive influence of minority. Most rules are due to that though.



> Also we are also talking about people who may have been born in this country, so not all have moved here, it is part of their culture in this country


So they are not part of the british culture but want to be apart? As mentioned there are a lot of cultural issues which need to be stopped rather than adopted.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Again I think its a bit of a myth that all muslims would not abide by certain rules I know many and hav had this conversatio and in certain circumstances wud not hav an issue .... Yes there will be some that don't want to comply but then that goes for any rules or regulations ...some will always flout that ....

I think more needs to be done to help others understand other religions, cultures rather than trying to make everyone the same ....that thought really frightens me ! :scared:


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Load of tosh..
> 
> People aren't saying ban other forms of identifying headress. Simply full face veils. They'd say the same about anyone covering their face all the time.


But other people cover their faces.....that's my point ....as soon as a religious symbol is put on it some peoples perspectives change


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Again I think its a bit of a myth that all muslims would not abide by certain rules I know many and hav had this conversatio and in certain circumstances wud not hav an issue .... Yes there will be some that don't want to comply but then that goes for any rules or regulations ...some will always flout that ....
> 
> I think more needs to be done to help others understand other religions, cultures rather than trying to make everyone the same ....that thought really frightens me ! :scared:





suzy93074 said:


> But other people cover their faces.....that's my point ....as soon as a religious symbol is put on it some peoples perspectives change


We agree once more (shock horror), see my above post!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Jonescat said:


> ..............throw Christians to lions?




I meant, if I moved to live in a muslim country, I would not expect to walk about dressed in a mini skirt and boob tube because to do so would imo be disrespectful. I would choose clothes that would be deemed acceptable and would not cause offence to anyone - but not full veil


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> ..............throw Christians to lions?


Please dont :lol: *runs and hides*


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

ok just a question.. if the burka is banned, does that not make the government edging towards a dictatorship?


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Goblin said:


> If it's a choice is not on religious grounds then  I'm prevented from wearing a crash helmet in places on security grounds being denied the choice. What's the difference?


Going out on the street is not security reasons. The fact that people are uncomfortable with how others dress doesn´t give them the right to bann anything. Everything is fine till the tables are turned and someone wants to do the same to us then we scream out that our rights are being violated. Live and let live.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Ok - no throwing anyone anywhere - will sit on my hands and behave. 

I do agree that I would be more aware of what I wore in a Muslim country too, but I really value the tolerance we have, and don't want a different kind of rigidity here. If you ban them, you have to have a sanction, and what good does it do anyone to chuck a woman in jail because of what she wore?


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Why is it socially unacceptable not to see someones face? Personally I'm not bothered if I see a woman walking along the street in a full veil - why would I be?
> 
> If it were a situation where I was having a conversation, seeking advice, having a discussion, etc then yes I would like to communicate with someone fully & for me, that does involve seeing their face.
> 
> As for women just being out in public with a veil, plenty of people walk around town in the winter with woolly scarves covering most of their faces so why is this different?


It´s different because someone else is doing it, if it were us, we´d have a thousand justifications.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> I meant, if I moved to live in a muslim country, I would not expect to walk about dressed in a mini skirt and boob tube because to do so would imo be disrespectful. I would choose clothes that would be deemed acceptable and would not cause offence to anyone - but not full veil


I do get your point... But again not all Brits do respect the laws over there.

There have been a few high profile cases in Saudi where Brits were having sex in public etc. But on a whole we do cover up and live by the dress rules!!!

I believe us being as intolerant as other countries, does not solve any issues.

I also understand why people here feel veil wearing is "unfair". But we all need to calm down as human beings, and try and understand the other's point of view.

I believe Saudi should be more relaxed, but why should we point to them and say well look what they do, so we can be just as intolerant.

I do however live my life "when in Rome" just out of respect.

ps. we are discussing "veils" not life or death!!


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

tillysdream said:


> We agree once more (shock horror), see my above post!


Ppmsl! Gotta b a record :scared:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Having lived in various countries, when I've been in a country with more stringent dress codes, I've adhered to them. If I chose to live in a country with a majority belief that women need to dress differently, I would honour that belief, even though it's not my own belief. Covering up, isn't religious, it's respectful.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Fully agree with TD here too! We brits are not as considerate when abroad as we make out ....we shud remember that when quoting when in Rome ...


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I went to Cyprus.....christian greek side. Went on a trip to a monastery and we were all told that women had to cover up shoulders and if wearing shorts would not be allowed in. we were given shawls and there were some skirts provided too.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Jonescat said:


> Ok - no throwing anyone anywhere - will sit on my hands and behave.
> 
> I do agree that I would be more aware of what I wore in a Muslim country too, but I really value the tolerance we have, and don't want a different kind of rigidity here. If you ban them, you have to have a sanction, and what good does it do anyone to chuck a woman in jail because of what she wore?


Well said!


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I went to a Jewish wedding, friend from school. Her dress was fabulous. The Rabbi wouldn't marry her til she covered up her shoulders cos he said it wasn't proper.

The look of the dress was completely spoiled when it was covered up and the shoulders pulled up.didn't matter, she covered up.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> ok just a question.. if the burka is banned, does that not make the government edging towards a dictatorship?


Yes it does ...it will open a huge can of worms and a lot of cultural unrest ......its not a decision for politicians its up to individual businesses ie hospitals,courts to have the right to implement a rule if necessary in certain circumstances


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> ok just a question.. if the burka is banned, does that not make the government edging towards a dictatorship?


Exactly...!

As I said earlier, it is all slippery slope... But it has already started in other areas, like the new Public Order law (few are aware of it, just slipped in under our noses).


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> Fully agree with TD here too! We brits are not as considerate when abroad as we make out ....we shud remember that when quoting when in Rome ...


I think that the brits living abroad are considerate!
As for the holiday makers/tourists, which many of these countries rely on I'll agree that's a different matter!
There is a big difference


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> But other people cover their faces.....that's my point ....as soon as a religious symbol is put on it some peoples perspectives change


Name them.. ones who refuse to be uncovered when asked in places like banks etc.



Shadow And Lightning said:


> ok just a question.. if the burka is banned, does that not make the government edging towards a dictatorship?


No.. simply means sticking to common sense. As an example already mentioned, I'm not allowed to walk down the street naked. That doesn't mean I live in a dictatorship.



merlin12 said:


> Going out on the street is not security reasons. The fact that people are uncomfortable with how others dress doesn´t give them the right to bann anything. Everything is fine till the tables are turned and someone wants to do the same to us then we scream out that our rights are being violated. Live and let live.


If everyone was prepared to accept that there were times it's not acceptable there wouldn't be need for legislation. A minority aren't prepared to do that. As such a method needs to be implemented which is enforceable. Easiest way to do that is ban the veil. They can still use scarves etc out in public, just have to uncover like everyone else when appropriate.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> Yes it does ...it will open a huge can of worms and a lot of cultural unrest ......its not a decision for politicians its up to individual businesses ie hospitals,courts to have the right to implement a rule if necessary in certain circumstances


But France and Belgium have done it!


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

DT said:


> But France and Belgium have done it!


Britain aren't copy cats


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## witchyone (Dec 16, 2011)

Think I may have to start going around wearing a pointy hat whilst sitting astride a broomstick closely followed by a black cat 

To look at me you would never guess where my belief/path follows. Roll on October 31st when I can legitamitly dance naked in the moonlight 

I don't scare people with my ways, I keep it to myself mostly as people don't understand it. I keep my path within my own home and don't force people to back away as I walk down the street as I dont dress a certain way to emphasize my path.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

DT said:


> But France and Belgium have done it!


I thought that was wrong then too.


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

merlin12 said:


> I feel that banning people from wearing religious symbols is not respecting people´s right to freedom. People should be allowed to wear what they want especially if it is so important to them. A lot of moslem women wear the veil because of the importance it has to them and they do it freely. This is another example of "everyone do what I want". It is a personal decisión and nobody´s concern. We had a case of a girl here in Spain that was not allowed in school because she refused to take off the veil. Why is it right for the government to forcé people to do away with their beliefs?


do you believe that a schoolgirl actually wanted to live a life of seclusion wearing a veil instead of listening to rihanna and going dancing with her friends?

the veil is just another way for muslim men to enforce subjugation on muslim women,the women wont speak out because they fear reprisals,violence....i'd even go as far as to ban state funded religious schools,whether catholic or muslim or whatever......its this sort of thing they're teaching


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Personally, I think we are ALL a little racist if we are honest with ourselves.

Us as individuals, and as religious or non religious groups.

For instance, I live in a quiet area where there is now a Polish influx... And when up town during the day, it feels like (probably alot less in reality) 50% are Eastern Europeans talking in their own language... And I think to myself, there are too many Polish people here now (jobs, houses, crime rate up), Polish food shops popping up everywhere and I get ticked off.

BUT I have to say to myself, what right have I to say what part of the world ANY human being lives on? And why shouldn't they feel at home here?

Us Brits are living in large numbers over in Spain etc. looking for a better life and some sunshine. Also Oz, has high numbers of British now living there.

Anyway a bit off topic... But if we are REALLY honest with ourselves, we are all guilty of being a tad racist in certain situations. That includes immigrants themselves towards us.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> Britain aren't copy cats


Opps! no sorry I forgot! we are up the USA's jacky's


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## witchyone (Dec 16, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> Britain aren't copy cats


Maybe we should be copy cats, maybe our government should have more balls and listen to what the people who vote want.


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

tillysdream said:


> Personally, I think we are ALL a little racist if we are honest with ourselves.
> 
> Us as individuals, and as religious or non religious groups.
> 
> ...


look after those polish people and they'll look after you


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

DT said:


> I think that the brits living abroad are considerate!
> As for the holiday makers/tourists, which many of these countries rely on I'll agree that's a different matter!
> There is a big difference


I'm not saying no brits are considerate DT just not everyone ....how many brits go abroad to live but don't learn the language ....as a nation we are the worst for being multi languistic .....we just assume everyone will speak our language

- I also think saying the tourists is a different matter is wrong they go for a week or two and cause more problems and anti social behaviour than any muslim with a veil on does here in their whole life time ! Its outrageous and portrays our country in an awful way....or maybe it doesn't ...they act like it here too ....


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> I thought that was wrong then too.


That's your view! mine does not agree with yours!


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

skyblue said:


> do you believe that a schoolgirl actually wanted to live a life of seclusion wearing a veil instead of listening to rihanna and going dancing with her friends?
> 
> the veil is just another way for muslim men to enforce subjugation on muslim women,the women wont speak out because they fear reprisals,violence....i'd even go as far as to ban state funded religious schools,whether catholic or muslim or whatever......its this sort of thing they're teaching


I agree SOME men (not all) use the veil as a control mechanism as you describe....

BUT what about the women who WANT to wear the veil? And that it is indeed their choice?


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

I think they should be banned in schools, hospitals and offices, airports etc or if that person is in a position where they have to deal with the general public. 

I would not allow treatment from somebody if I could only see their eyes. 

Seeing somebody walking down the street in a veil doesn't bother me at all, in fact I find it kind of interesting?  but it would if I had to have a face to face discussion with them or be treated by them. 

Also if other people have to remove their helmets, baseball hats and hoods when going into a shop or pub or airport then why shouldn't Muslims have to?

Its not part of their religion and that's a fact, and even if it was it doesn't change the fact that in a western civilized society the face is where you can gauge a persons reaction or tell who they are. 

If you can't see their face you can't even be sure the person you're talking to is who they say they are.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

I went to turkey recently for 1 week, turkey is 98% muslim, and the amount of racism british people gave the locals was disgusting... every day I heard arab this arab that paki this. Its just a sheer lack of respect in my opinion. 

Polish people are lovely people, I have quite a lot of Polish friends I met in uni, I have no issues with anyone that comes to the UK. 
a lot of my family have came from Pakistan to the UK and worked their butts off, a heck of a lot more than the side of the family born here.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

DT said:


> But France and Belgium have done it!


Do we really wanna be like that though ?? Didn't they ban women from wearing trousers ?!

Just because othhers hav does not make it right ....imo


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> I'm not saying no brits are considerate DT just not everyone ....how many brits go abroad to live but don't learn the language ....as a nation we are the worst for being multi languistic .....we just assume everyone will speak our language
> 
> - I also think saying the tourists is a different matter is wrong they go for a week or two and cause more problems and anti social behaviour than any muslim with a veil on does here in their whole life time ! Its outrageous and portrays our country in an awful way....or maybe it doesn't ...they act like it here too ....


I think most of the brits settling abroad Suzy do try and learn the language, Much of the problem is that many of these people are of retirement age and it really is much harder to absorb then when we are younger (I'm living proof been trying with both French and Spanish for a couple of years now) Having been considering a more overseas for some time now it is the language that has stopped me, Of the many people I know overseas almost ALL know an acceptable amount of the language or at the very least attending language classes.

As for the brits abroad holidaying, Ill agree they should be ashamed of themselves! but then you only have to watch some of the programmes that are shown here to see how discusting they are!


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

skyblue said:


> do you believe that a schoolgirl actually wanted to live a life of seclusion wearing a veil instead of listening to rihanna and going dancing with her friends?
> 
> the veil is just another way for muslim men to enforce subjugation on muslim women,the women wont speak out because they fear reprisals,violence....i'd even go as far as to ban state funded religious schools,whether catholic or muslim or whatever......its this sort of thing they're teaching


this view is annoying, im muslim, majority of the people I know are muslim, some more religious than others. but wearing a hijab or a burka is most of the time the womans choice, why is it so hard for people to believe that?

If muslim men were really that bad you would very rarely see muslim women because their men would not let them out.

Its a very old school view, and applies more to Saudi than muslims here, yeah there are the exceptions but the majority believe it or not can actually think for themselves


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> Do we really wanna be like that though ?? Didn't they ban women from wearing trousers ?!
> 
> Just because othhers hav does not make it right ....imo


Suzy, I am not comfortable with a full face covering, and I don't see many, OK the world does not revolve around me, but I do genuinely believe that some find it intimidating, My father most certainly did prior to him dying . 
How does it feel though in say Leicester why they are possibly the majority.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Why do people feel their rights are more important than those of others?

When I go to the beach I don´t feel the need to see women topless, I don´t go ro a nudist one so why should I have people´s bits infront of me? Can that be banned? Of course not, that would be trampling on their rights, as my right to a nice view is not important. I feel we think we have the right to decide for others when we aren´t broad minded enogh to accept them, it´s just more comfortable to bann things, who cares about human rights when it disturbs our peace of mind?


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DT said:


> I think most of the brits settling abroad Suzy do try and learn the language, Much of the problem is that many of these people are of retirement age and it really is much harder to absorb then when we are younger (I'm living proof been trying with both French and Spanish for a couple of years now) Having been considering a more overseas for some time now it is the language that has stopped me, Of the many people I know overseas almost ALL know an acceptable amount of the language or at the very least attending language classes.
> 
> As for the brits abroad holidaying, Ill agree they should be ashamed of themselves! but then you only have to watch some of the programmes that are shown here to see how discusting they are!


Agreed! I hate those programs horrific behaviour.

It makes it even funnier, when we as a nation then try and take the moral higher ground!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> Why do people feel their rights are more important than those of others?
> 
> When I go to the beach I don´t feel the need to see women topless, I don´t go ro a nudist one so why should I have people´s bits infront of me? Can that be banned? Of course not, that would be trampling on their rights, as my right to a nice view is not important. I feel we think we have the right to decide for others when we aren´t broad minded enogh to accept them, it´s just more comfortable to bann things, who cares about human rights when it disturbs our peace of mind?


But you don't get topless woman wandering around the high street! You go to the beach you see flesh!! whoopyDo and there are not that many topless bathers in the UK, apart from on desiginated beaches!

If they all want to go and sit on the beach with their burkas that's fine by me!

And when was the last time you saw a naturist wandering around the supermarket??? Answers on a postcard please


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> I also think saying the tourists is a different matter is wrong they go for a week or two and cause more problems and anti social behaviour than any muslim with a veil on does here in their whole life time ! Its outrageous and portrays our country in an awful way....or maybe it doesn't ...they act like it here too ....


I don't condone the poor attitudes or behaviour on holiday it's even more essential when living in another country to conform to the society in which you live, not less.


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

we were born naked


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I see loads of muslim nurses,doctors, teachers,...all women if muslim men were so bad wud they allow women to work?? 

To say all muslim men treat women badly is like saying all white men who drink stella will go home and beat their wifes ... There are men who will stifle beat abuse in every race and every religion


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> And where am I ranting?? I'm giving my opinion calm down


I did not say you were ranting. I said you're the first one to mention prejudice. Please do not tell me to calm down, I'm hardly raving here, am I?



Shadow And Lightning said:


> ok just a question.. if the burka is banned, does that not make the government edging towards a dictatorship?


No, of course not. Certain things are banned in this country, otherwise we'd have anarchy which regardless of how you view the government is hardly desirable. Or would you prefer that we all do as we please, take what we want, commit whatever crime and have no consequences?



DT said:


> But France and Belgium have done it!


Exactly, hardly dictatorships!!



suzy93074 said:


> I'm not saying no brits are considerate DT just not everyone ....how many brits go abroad to live but don't learn the language ....as a nation we are the worst for being multi languistic .....we just assume everyone will speak our language
> 
> - I also think saying the tourists is a different matter is wrong they go for a week or two and cause more problems and anti social behaviour than any muslim with a veil on does here in their whole life time !


And how many people come here and never learn the language? I got sick and tired of one kid in my form having erratic attendance so he could accompany his mum to translate for her everywhere. (Polish lad) Immigrants tend to move to the same areas so some never need to learn English. All my Columbian kids moved to the same part of South London because their mates/family members were already there. The parents spoke zero English.



suzy93074 said:


> Do we really wanna be like that though ?? Didn't they ban women from wearing trousers ?!


Hilarious! As if!!


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

DT said:


> But you don't get topless woman wandering around the high street! You go to the beach you see flesh!! whoopyDo and there are not that many topless bathers in the UK, apart from on desiginated beaches!
> 
> If they all want to go and sit on the beach with their burkas that's fine by me!
> 
> And when was the last time you saw a naturist wandering around the supermarket??? Answers on a postcard please


Where is it written that I have to see boobs in a non nudist beach? Why should I accept everything because those doing it coudn´t care less, meanwhile others feel they have the right to bann peoples religious or cultural beliefs. If we are going to judge then it should be with the same measure for everyone.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> I see loads of muslim nurses,doctors, teachers,...all women if muslim men were so bad wud they allow women to work??
> 
> To say all muslim men treat women badly is like saying all white men who drink stella will go home and beat their wifes ... There are men who will stifle beat abuse in every race and every religion


Goodness me, inflammatory! I don't see the post where this is mentioned about Muslim men. Generically, _in my opinion_, it gives a *potential* impression of women being the lesser sex, but no-one on here has yet said that all Muslim men want to restrict women to being hidden away. Your interpretations are interesting. 

My point NOT what I have written above but in relation - *A slippery slope!*[/QUOTE]

An interesting point made in the Devil's Advocate where a man defended his right to do this in his bathtub and was exonerated because he was of a particular religion. There's a book by France's former equal opportunities minister which deals with this issue. His family were North African immigrants and it was something they did, they weren't aware that it would be frowned upon in France. An interesting story in his autobiography about how they coped with the cultural changes.

'His most widely published book is his account in 2007 of his two years as minister. Titled The Sheep in the Bathtub, this is a reference to a quote from Nicolas Sarkozy warning French Muslims not to slaughter sheep in their bathtubs for Eid al-Adha.'


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

DT said:


> Suzy, I am not comfortable with a full face covering, and I don't see many, OK the world does not revolve around me, but I do genuinely believe that some find it intimidating, My father most certainly did prior to him dying .
> How does it feel though in say Leicester why they are possibly the majority.


Sorry about your dad  xxx ....I'm sure some do find them intimidating if like u say you don't see them everyday ...and maybe u hav hit the nail on the head ...fear comes from not having knowledge of something ....if more was learnt about the culture and religious differences poeple wud not have a pre concieved idea

I live in a vastly multi cultural area I see muslim women in head gear everyday so maybe that's why its no biggie to me

I'm used to walking past drunks, druggies, gangs ....not much scares me anymore lol  xx


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> Where is it written that I have to see boobs in a non nudist beach? Why should I accept everything because those doing it coudn´t care less, meanwhile others feel they have the right to bann peoples religious or cultural beliefs. If we are going to judge then it should be with the same measure for everyone.


So in the UK where are you seeing these bare boobs??
My hubby wants to know
Now when did you last see bare boobs in a supermarket please?

Edited to add! IF these bare boobs on the wrong beach are disturbing you that much you CAN report it to the police, as it is indecent exposure!!


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

yeah I am muslim and yes I do eat halal meat. 
Ummm yes that's slightly different even if you kill a dog in the name of Allah it doesn't make it halal, certain animals are not halal. I really don't get what your point is in all fairness. 
Would you take your dog to a none halal slaughter house? No so why bring it up in Halal context?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Do we really wanna be like that though ?? Didn't they ban women from wearing trousers ?!





cinnamontoast said:


> Hilarious! As if!!


Don't know whether the above is true or not, but right up into the seventies women wearing trousers to work (or girls wearing them to school) was frowned upon in this country to the extent that in cold weather women used to go to work/school in trousers and take a skirt to change into.

Sorry - back to the thread!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> yeah I am muslim and yes I do eat halal meat.
> Ummm yes that's slightly different even if you kill a dog in the name of Allah it doesn't make it halal, certain animals are not halal. I really don't get what your point is in all fairness.
> Would you take your dog to a none halal slaughter house? No so why bring it up in Halal context?


My point is BACK to that slippery slope, until recently I was NOT aware of halal slaughter and to be honest is disgusts me, and that our country can allow this to happen is beyond me too!


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> but it is compulsory in islam, for both men and women to cover their body, not wear clothes that show ones shape etc, be modest and whtever. Which is where the burka comes in, it gives no shape to ones body, others choose to hide their shape in other ways. It is a matter of interpretation yes, but I don't think men force their women to wear it.
> I just don't understand why muslim women are already associated with oppression, that muslim men force the women to do what they want. It really is not like that. Again, influence of media.


Cinnamon toast I'm not the only one to highlight it as quote here states

People hav mentioned the oppression of muslim women


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

There are certain times when a face covering is inappropriate, in a classroom, in a court room and where a positive ID is needed (say at an airline check in or passport control), if its objectionable to the wearer that the covering be removed they should avoid these places.......

Having said that, I hear many times that nowhere in Islam or the Koran is it law that women should wear a veil (Niqab/Burkha?)....


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

DT said:


> My point is BACK to that slippery slope,* until recently I was NOT aware of halal slaughter and to be honest is disgusts* me, and that our country can allow this to happen is beyond me too!


where have you been for the last 20 years?


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

DT said:


> My point is BACK to that slippery slope, until recently I was NOT aware of halal slaughter and to be honest is disgusts me, and that our country can allow this to happen is beyond me too!


Why should it not be allowed do you know how many Muslims live in this country? Why should we not be able to access meat? 
I guess you have the same view for the Jewish slaughter too?

and also, do you actually know how animals are killed aside from those ways?
it isn't exactly harmless either. So don't just point the fingers at Halal.
You know.. some abattoirs kill in a pretty identical way to the halal way bar the blessings.. I have seen it for myself.
Or is that acceptable because they aren't muslim? As you clearly have something against Musllims, that is the picture im getting from your posts, if im wrong I apologise but its how I see it.


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## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

Where I work [Leicester, High percentage of Muslims] is upstairs with a large window looking out onto a busy road, we have a lot of phone calls from Muslim ladies asking if any men come into the shop [hairdressers]
we always say, ''well it is a ladies salon but we cant say a male rep wont visit or a husband collect his wife.
One day a Muslim lady came for her appointment and tried to insist we close the blinds at the window [upstairs remember] in case a male was on the *top deck of a bus* and looked in and saw her without her hair and face covered up!!
We refused.. this woman *crawled* across the floor to a seat away from the window... thats not a fear of men is it??

Its happened lots of times, but then we also have Muslim clients that just dont bother at all, tho many bring a husband/brother with them.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

back on track please. Let's not turn this into an argument about abbatoirs.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Oh and it is true about women being banned from wearing trousers I can't post link cos on my moby but google it!! Was in Paris and was a two hundred year old law!!!


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> Cinnamon toast I'm not the only one to highlight it as quote here states
> 
> People hav mentioned the oppression of muslim women


yeah I also picked up on people saying men use it as a way to tell women what to do.. it has been said a few times in fact I don't know how cinnamon toast missed it tbh


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> Cinnamon toast I'm not the only one to highlight it as quote here states
> 
> People hav mentioned the oppression of muslim women


Just because someone writes it doesn't make it true. She says the impression of it, not that it's true. Semantics.

Gotta go to bed, all, full day tomorrow.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Gertrude said:


> Where I work [Leicester, High percentage of Muslims] is upstairs with a large window looking out onto a busy road, we have a lot of phone calls from Muslim ladies asking if any men come into the shop [hairdressers]
> we always say, ''well it is a ladies salon but we cant say a male rep wont visit or a husband collect his wife.
> One day a Muslim lady came for her appointment and tried to insist we close the blinds at the window [upstairs remember] in case a male was on the *top deck of a bus* and looked in and saw her without her hair and face covered up!!
> We refused.. this woman *crawled* across the floor to a seat away from the window... thats not a fear of men is it??
> ...


it is not a fear of men no it is just following the religion in that no man other than those blood related or her husband should see her hair.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> where have you been for the last 20 years?


Wrapped up in cotton wool


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Trousers for women is an interesting one but doesn't really work as an argument. How many men can wear a dress to work and no Gertrude, I haven't done it  Have done for a nightclub on occasion where it is acceptable.

The discussion really boils down to where should women be allowed to cover up their face. I think the majority are fine with it unless it's needed for communication or security. What options are available to ensure this happens if people insist it's religious and they must do it everywhere when it's not, it's only their choice?

What other solutions do people recommend? Surely a blanket policy is easier to implement than multiple policies here there and everywhere when nobody can be sure of what the situation is.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2013)

Goblin said:


> How many men can wear a dress to work and no Gertrude, I haven't done it  Have done for a nightclub on occasion where it is acceptable.


One of those clubs was it!?!?!
:lol:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> yeah I am muslim and yes I do eat halal meat.
> Ummm yes that's slightly different even if you kill a dog in the name of Allah it doesn't make it halal, certain animals are not halal. I really don't get what your point is in all fairness.
> Would you take your dog to a none halal slaughter house? No so why bring it up in Halal context?


Love! I wouldn't kill any animal, let alone a dog with a blade!
I was just trying to emphazise the slippery slope!


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DT said:


> So in the UK where are you seeing these bare boobs??
> My hubby wants to know
> Now when did you last see bare boobs in a supermarket please?
> 
> Edited to add! IF these bare boobs on the wrong beach are disturbing you that much you CAN report it to the police, as it is indecent exposure!!


This is my favourite post of yours tonight! Hilarious :lol: Some people miss the humour though!

And a very fair point you make my dear! 

More veils to be seen about town, than bare boobs (thankfully).


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## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Trousers for women is an interesting one but doesn't really work as an argument. How many men can wear a dress to work *and no Gertrude, I haven't done it*  .


Oooh you fibber!


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DT said:


> Wrapped up in cotton wool


Because I know you away from the forums, I know you are indeed a very sweet and innocent (well spoken) lady. Whose life is full of cotton candy and good will.

But your posts (due to you probably being very tired) are not always making sense, and could be interpreted the wrong way my wee lovely. xxx


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> Im opposed to full face veils, if they really have to hide from society then piss off to mars.


^^^^^This


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

tillysdream said:


> Because I know you away from the forums, I know you are indeed a very sweet and innocent (well spoken) lady. Whose life is full of cotton candy and good will.
> 
> But your posts (due to you probably being very tired) and not always making sense, and could be interpretated the wrong way. xxx


If All I have to worry about TD is the opinions of some of the muppets on here then I'll start to worry!

and its sorted with lily, she just misunderstood me
She's as against it as me xxx


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

DT said:


> What?? so what part of halal exactly don't I understand??? please be specific!
> !


ok put simply... dog = no eat
cow sheep = eat
get it?

halal don't kill dogs... so you making a joke that if you face mekkah and kill a dog is not funny, its judgemental and actually quite offensive to assume that's what islam is about, and just goes to show you aren't educated in my religion so shouldn't even be saying anything about it

its quite tiring every day having people assume one thing or another about islam
and today my two day old cousin got referred to as a terrorist so my tolerance levels have gone. 
its getting tiring

and none of this has anything to do with the burka


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I'm harping back to the trouser law lol .....it is relevant ! There freedom of choice was taken away from them ....its the same thing


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

I have no problem with people expressing themselves be it on religious or any other terms, what I do have a problem with is the apparent one sidedness of it all...it's unfair, political correctness gone mad!!!!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> ok put simply... dog = no eat
> cow sheep = eat
> get it?
> 
> ...


I don't know if you have genuinely misunderstood me! or you are just plain thick!
Which part exactly don't you understand??? I was referring to* that *slippery slope whereby in the UK we have to adhere to certain procedures in the slaughter houses (many that I don't agree with I add) Yet somehow, and I honestly do not know when this was first allowed , in the name of religion, we can slit the throat of an animal for religious purposes. What I was trying to emphasize is that in the name of religion it is OK for halal slaughter but not to kill another animal in such a way (rightly so! Put bluntly!! these exclusion have to stop somewhere!
The full face covering is allowed, but when does it stop??
Will we be marrying 12 year old girls?
Stoning adulteresses
Sharia law
Aborting female fetus's
WHEN!

much wants more, always has, always will!


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> ok put simply... dog = no eat
> cow sheep = eat
> get it?
> 
> ...


Sending you a ((((hug))). This thread could not have made for easy reading for you.

DT comes across wrongly in the written word (especially when she is tired). I can see why you took offense. x


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

i believe that the full burka shouldnt be worn in public. if a women wants to wear one in the home then fine, but not in public. if people cant wear hoodies or helmets then why should women wear a burka. it seems to me that the government dont want to offend groups by banning it. if thats the case why bring it up in the first place. france banned it with no issues and i think it should be done here too. the head coverings are fine, just not the facial ones.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Time for bed me thinks ! Will catch up tomoz  nite nite peeps xxx

Oh and shadow lightning that is disgusting what someone said about your baby cousin  big hugs NO ONE shud hav to listen to that ...rise above them they are baffoons .xxx


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Gertrude said:


> Oooh you fibber!


No work wouldn't have accepted it.. that horrible phrase, casual smart unless going to a customer where a suit was required.. Would have been fun to though just for one day.



jon bda said:


> One of those clubs was it!?!?!:lol:


Let's just say full face veil would not be a problem although most I've seen were black mesh similar to a wedding veil. In certain settings, there is nothing wrong with full veils. Tolerance is required but conforming to the rules expected for everyone else is also required.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Right, I'm off to bed.

Don't suppose this thread will be here in the morning - pity that, because it was a good discussion before all the nonsense started.


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> listen, I know more about my religion than you do, so don't try and call me thick thank you.
> just so you know, sharia law is what shia muslims follow, which is quite different than the average muslim.
> You're listing things that very very rarely happen anymore and I just don't understand why you are repeating it. Full face covering and stoning is totally different.
> and as for the female abortion, as far as I know its actually Hinduism that does that not islam. Islam does not agree with abortions past 120 days - three months.


I know how hard this thread would have been for you to comment and debate on.

I kinda know how that feels when a "meat thread" arises, and I am nearly the only veggie on it. It can be hard to debate (and gets very emotional) when you feel like you are "the only one" that gets it (your point of view)!

((((hugs)))) I see from your pics you are just a young girl, DT is an old coffin dodger  (I am DEAD for saying that). So you are a VERY modern Muslim, and DT is thinking Muslim of old. Hence the clash of opinions.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

religion is a sensitive topic of mine I must admit, growing up in what seems to be an ever growing islamophobic place, its very easy to get annoyed when I think people don't understand the true meaning of islam.

its nice that you're explaining things for her, and on that note im off to bed


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## Donut76 (May 15, 2013)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> religion is a sensitive topic of mine I must admit, growing up in what seems to be an ever growing islamophobic place, its very easy to get annoyed when I think people don't understand the true meaning of islam.
> 
> its nice that you're explaining things for her, and on that note im off to bed


Good Night


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> religion is a sensitive topic of mine I must admit, growing up in what seems to be an ever growing islamophobic place, its very easy to get annoyed when I think people don't understand the true meaning of islam.
> 
> its nice that you're explaining things for her, and on that note im off to bed


Goodnight


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## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> religion is a sensitive topic of mine I must admit, growing up in what seems to be an ever growing islamophobic place, its very easy to get annoyed when I think people don't understand the true meaning of islam.
> 
> its nice that you're explaining things for her, and on that note im off to bed


My being a vegetarian is like a religion to me, so I understand (though different) how your religion is a sensitive subject with you. Feels like a constant battle all the time!

I am probably out of line TRYING to explain other people's posting style, but hey I did.

Night, night!


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## K9Steve (Oct 5, 2012)

I'm not saying this because I'm a man, but I think it should be the right of the women who want to wear their veils. No, I don't like it because I like to see the full face of the woman I'm speaking to and veils tend to conceal their facial expressions and facial behaviors. However, I do believe the veils should be removed when women are testifying in a court of law. It allows the jurors and other court officers see the facial expressions and facial behaviors.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

closed for a read and maybe editing or maybe moving...


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

To try and get this debate back on track I have removed a lot of the petty, uncalled for bickering. I have left some of the posts which may seem over the top but I would like to remind members that this is a multi-cultural forum and to try and respect the views of others even when you don't agree


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think it should be illegal to hide your face at all in public, no matter what race or religion, with the only exception for those who suffer from some sort of injury or illness that makes them uncomfortable allowing people to view their face.


Very true. I actually know of some shops where a motorcyclist is not allowed
in wearing a helmet.

Oops didn't realise this thread was 18 pages long when I posted so this has probably already been mentioned several times. Apologies :blushing:


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Out in public then it doesn't bother me but in any situation where you would be expected to remove a crash helmet, scarf, hoody whatever then the same should apply.

On the news last night they were talking to two ladies, one a Doctor and one a Dentists both wore the full veil but both said they remove face covering when talking to patients and I think that is right. I would not like to be treated by someone you could not see their face and for some it would be quite frightening, my mum for example has dementia and it would scare her to death exactly the same if someone covered the face by other means


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> but it is compulsory in islam, for both men and women to cover their body, not wear clothes that show ones shape etc, be modest and whtever. Which is where the burka comes in, it gives no shape to ones body, others choose to hide their shape in other ways. It is a matter of interpretation yes, but I don't think men force their women to wear it.
> I just don't understand why muslim women are already associated with oppression, that muslim men force the women to do what they want. It really is not like that. Again, influence of media.


If it is the case, could you explain to me why I keep seeing women wearing the burka ,while with their husband, who is wearing western style clothes?
I don't understand why it is ok for the men to wear jeans and not the women.
While the Qu'ran asks women to wear modest clothing, it does not mean that they have to wear a burka.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> I feel that banning people from wearing religious symbols is not respecting people´s right to freedom. People should be allowed to wear what they want especially if it is so important to them. A lot of moslem women wear the veil because of the importance it has to them and they do it freely. This is another example of "everyone do what I want". It is a personal decisión and nobody´s concern. We had a case of a girl here in Spain that was not allowed in school because she refused to take off the veil. Why is it right for the government to forcé people to do away with their beliefs?


That's fine but the people who want to wear a full face veil should respect my right as a western woman to wear a mini skirt should I wish too in Saudi Arabia.

Imagine how that would go down...


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Marycat said:


> That's fine but the people who want to wear a full face veil should respect my right as a western woman to wear a mini skirt should I wish too in Saudi Arabia.
> 
> Imagine how that would go down...


well I personally think they are diff things. They consider that way of dressing provocating an offensive so that is the image someone with a mini skirt would give over there, the concept of wearing a full face veil is the complete opposite. I don´t understand why people are getting so rilled up about what others want to wear or cover. What is you business if someone wants to cover her face? why is so much effort being spent on trying to bann this when they haven´t solved world hunger? But the most important, can´t we just respect the way we want others to do with us? If any of us wore veils we would be angry that anyone should want to come and tell us how to dress.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> Why should it not be allowed do you know how many Muslims live in this country? Why should we not be able to access meat?
> I guess you have the same view for the Jewish slaughter too?
> 
> and also, do you actually know how animals are killed aside from those ways?
> ...


Hello Shadow. I am certainly not anti Islam or any religion come to that so please don't take any offence or think I am picking on your religion!!! I take people at face value and think you come across as a lovely lass. 
I am against both Kosher and Halal methods of slaughter. To me it is unnecessarily cruel. I have had this argument with a Jewish lady (who I love to bits)
According to the Christian religion I should be in hiding now because shock horror I am menstruating. However in modern times most people realize the ridiculousness of this and choose to see it as inappropriate in today's world. I cannot for the life of me understand why these medieval and cruel methods of killing animals are not seen for what they are - old and outdated. 
Regarding the burka, as far as I can see it is bugger all to do with God and what He wants and more do do with separating oneself from mainstream society. Its almost like sticking two fingers up at the world. It does nothing to warm people to Islam, it is a barrier to multi culturalism. Its also very insulting to men, are all men going go weak at the knees and have uncontrollable urges at the sight of a woman?? Well I am glad we can see your pretty face and we can get to know you..

Now to pick on my own religion (Roman Catholic) I abhor how the pope keeps this stance up against contraception when HIV and babies are being born into poverty..

Thats it I think I have had a go at everyone now!!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> The government has pronounced itself reluctant to ban the full face veil, no doubt they don't want to lose brownie points with an important sector of the voting public  However, some countries have already banned it. In France, for example, state education and religion are totally separate so no religious symbols are allowed.
> 
> I think it should be banned for several reasons. It is impossible to identify the wearer. It is subjugating women and gives, in my opinion, a seriously poor impression therefore.* At no point does the qur'an say that women should wear it. *
> 
> Thoughts?


It is a purely cultural habit, and not a religious requirement. Many, if not most, Moslems, do NOT wear a full niqab, though many prefer to wear a hijab, and keep their hair covered. Indeed, there are many Moslems who are AGAINST the wearing of the niqab.

As a cultural phenomenon, I think it should be banned. People who come to live in this country should accept the cultural mores of this country. Like France, I think the veil should be banned outright in public. It is divisive and provocative. Why don't the people who insist on the dignity that the veil gives to women move to a country where it is allowed, in fact - compulsory? Because they know that in those countries it is a symbol of subjugation, that's why. A person with their face covered is a non-person, without voice or presence.

We still struggle with many unacceptable cultural practices - honour killings, forced marriages etc - and to allow the veil is a retrograde step. I accept that for many older ladies, giving up the veil will be very difficult - I imagine that after 60 years with a covered face, it will feel like being naked in public, but that doesn't mean that it should be allowed.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> well I personally think they are diff things. They consider that way of dressing provocating an offensive so that is the image someone with a mini skirt would give over there, the concept of wearing a full face veil is the complete opposite. I don´t understand why people are getting so rilled up about what others want to wear or cover. What is you business if someone wants to cover her face? why is so much effort being spent on trying to bann this when they haven´t solved world hunger? But the most important, can´t we just respect the way we want others to do with us? If any of us wore veils we would be angry that anyone should want to come and tell us how to dress.


 To be honest if someone wants to walk around with just their eyeballs showing, you are right its their business. It becomes an issue when facial recognition is important such as passport control, in a court of law and when a female wearing a full face veil is in a job like a doctor. I wouldn't like to be receiving a diagnosis from someone whose face I could not see. Facial expressions are a strong part of how we communicate as human beings.And whether we like it or not many women wearing the burka or full face veil today would rather not be. Remember Afghanistan? Those burka's were forced on the women by Al Qaeda, it was not a choice.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

There will always be cultural differences between people from different countries/religions. 

Problems seem to arise when one party seems to think that their culture/religion takes precedence over someone else's, especially when that party has chosen to go and live somewhere where the culture is different, but just as established. 

Should any of us expect to be able to force change wherever we go?

Whose culture/religion is more valid?


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> There will always be cultural differences between people from different countries/religions.
> 
> Problems seem to arise when one party seems to think that their culture/religion takes precedence over someone else's, especially when that party has chosen to go and live somewhere where the culture is different, but just as established.
> 
> ...


But that goes both ways becaus by trying t bann it you are saying your culture is better tan theirs and you want to eradicate it.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> But that goes both ways becaus by trying t bann it you are saying your culture is better tan theirs and you want to eradicate it.


No it's not.. it's saying the culture of the country you are in is the one to follow. Nothing wrong with that. We don't go to another country and insist they must allow our culture to be accepted everywhere, neither do we have the right to.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

But our country is multi cultural ....how should we expect them to act then ,,,,what is so great about british culture that others should forget where they come from ? .....I keep hearing they should act like us .....how do we act then ?? -


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

lymorelynn said:


> To try and get this debate back on track I have removed a lot of the petty, uncalled for bickering. I have left some of the posts which may seem over the top but I would like to remind members that this is a multi-cultural forum and to try and respect the views of others even when you don't agree


Thanks, never had a thread pulled before!!



merlin12 said:


> why is so much effort being spent on trying to bann this when they haven´t solved world hunger?


I don't think there is 'so much effort being spent'. The govt is refusing to act and is leaving the decision up to companies or institutions.



> If any of us wore veils we would be angry that anyone should want to come and tell us how to dress.


But if it's not in the culture of the country, then why would we be annoyed? It's also a made up _cultural_ concept, not religious.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> But our country is multi cultural ....how should we expect them to act then ,,,,what is so great about british culture that others should forget where they come from ? .....I keep hearing they should act like us .....how do we act then ?? -


Plenty of ways to remember your cultural identity without clashing with the current one. As mentioned, there are several sorts of headgear allowable and used only one of which is under discussion. If you want multicultural society oneof the key aspects is not to segregate yourself off and being able to communicate efficiently. Hiding behind a veil is segregating yourself and preventing that communication


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> But that goes both ways becaus by trying t bann it you are saying your culture is better tan theirs and you want to eradicate it.


My post does not refer to any particular culture/religion, however, if one knowingly chooses to live in a country that has a way of life that is so different to your own - why should you expect that country to change to accommodate you?

I am not saying one is better than the other.

A family member of mine lives in a country where the mother tongue is Spanish. She has, therefore, learnt to speak fluent Spanish. She has not expected all the locals to learn English so that she can be understood.

Neither language is more important than the other.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Don't see what all the fuss is about! Everyone, regardless of religion/culture should follow the rules of this Country, which is to remove headgear when entering certain places...banks, courts, shopping malls, etc.

Rules are rules...a young person I was with was once rudely told to remove his hoody in a Government building (it was freezing in there and he was sitting in a waiting room). If that is not acceptable, then certainly somebody having their face completely covered (except for eyes) is NOT acceptable. Simple

About time this Country stopped bending over backwards to try to please all the people all the time. It's impossible, so they may as well grow some balls and make a stand, as France did on this subject.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Its not segregation its pride in ones background and wher they have come from ....what they may hav been thru as a race that has bought them together .....I cud never take that away from someone its not my right.....most people don't segragate themselves they embrace their culture but also adapt to how others live .....

I cud not ask my partner to forget his culture as a black man .....its part of him!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> Its not segregation its pride in ones background and wher they have come from ....what they may hav been thru as a race that has bought them together .....I cud never take that away from someone its not my right.....most people don't segragate themselves they embrace their culture but also adapt to how others live .....
> 
> I cud not ask my partner to forget his culture as a black man .....its part of him!


So any cultural aspect has to be accepted. Is that your argument? What about cannibalism after all that was in several cultures. What about terminating female foetus' as boys are deemed more important.. that's cultural and still happens.. should we condone it? Marrying children off, again cultural... I could go on.

Most people don't segregate themselves, true. Wearing a veil is however segregating themselves and yes, they are a minority.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> Its not segregation its pride in ones background and wher they have come from ....what they may hav been thru as a race that has bought them together .....I cud never take that away from someone its not my right.....most people don't segragate themselves they embrace their culture but also adapt to how others live .....
> 
> I cud not ask my partner to forget his culture as a black man .....its part of him!


I agree with you to a degree Suzy but its partly about fairness, same rule for all type of thing so in the case of the veil then fine but remove in the same circumstances any other face covering would have to be removed. And also there are some things that are a cultural thing in the country of origin but not socially acceptable or even legal in a different country, I am thinking for example female circumcision


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> I agree with you to a degree Suzy but its partly about fairness, same rule for all type of thing so in the case of the veil then fine but remove in the same circumstances any other face covering would have to be removed. And also there are some things that are a cultural thing in the country of origin but not socially acceptable or even legal in a different country, I am thinking for example female circumcision


Exacxtly hun .....I did say in my first post I'm against a full ban but agree in certain places ie court bank hospital it shud not be worn .....on the street as a member of the public then no I think that is there choice!

As for some of the other cultures mentioned ....we are not talking about dangerous or life threatening cultures ....what u are suggesting is that every culture bar one be eradicated !! That's totally wrong imo ...

Was not referring to u Doodle in the eradication part lol  xxx


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> Exacxtly hun .....I did say in my first post I'm against a full ban but agree in certain places ie court bank hospital it shud not be worn .....on the street as a member of the public then no I think that is there choice!
> 
> As for some of the other cultures mentioned ....we are not talking about dangerous or life threatening cultures ....what u are suggesting is that every culture bar one be eradicated !! That's totally wrong imo ...


Good think we are on the same line of thinking 

Has the second paragraph come out wrong, I haven't advocated banning anything  I hate tattoos (my son has them and preferred his lovely skin as it was), detest low slung trousers showing underwear and bums one of his mates still does lol but no just because I don't like something would not ban it - unless that is something is harmful or life threatening


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> Exacxtly hun .....I did say in my first post I'm against a full ban but agree in certain places ie court bank hospital it shud not be worn .....on the street as a member of the public then no I think that is there choice! .


But they don't accept that do they It's religious they argue when it's not. What alternatives are there? Could a law be formed which listed all areas where they were not allowed, potentially needing constant reviews and updates? It's not workable. The only solution is to take the bull by it's horns and say no, it's not acceptable to say "it's my right.. bugger what everyone else has to do".


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> I agree with you to a degree Suzy but its partly about fairness, same rule for all type of thing so in the case of the veil then fine but remove in the same circumstances any other face covering would have to be removed. And also there are some things that are a cultural thing in the country of origin but not socially acceptable or even legal in a different country, I am thinking for example female circumcision





DoodlesRule said:


> Good think we are on the same line of thinking
> 
> Has the second paragraph come out wrong, I haven't advocated banning anything  I hate tattoos (my son has them and preferred his lovely skin as it was), detest low slung trousers showing underwear and bums one of his mates still does lol but no just because I don't like something would not ban it - unless that is something is harmful or life threatening


I did edit my post hun to say was not referring to u about eradication lol xxx


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Goblin said:


> But they don't accept that do they It's religious they argue when it's not. What alternatives are there? Could a law be formed which listed all areas where they were not allowed, potentially needing constant reviews and updates?* It's not workable*. The only solution is to take the bull by it's horns and say no, it's not acceptable to say "it's my right.. bugger what everyone else has to do".


Why isn't it workable? Says who? Why is only a blanket ban the way to go? Why can't there be restrictions for employment as there are in other areas? I really don't see that a blanket ban is necessary

Not everyone thinks wearing a veil in public is unacceptable


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Goblin said:


> But they don't accept that do they It's religious they argue when it's not. What alternatives are there? Could a law be formed which listed all areas where they were not allowed, potentially needing constant reviews and updates? It's not workable. The only solution is to take the bull by it's horns and say no, it's not acceptable to say "it's my right.. bugger what everyone else has to do".


Some may not and if they don't shud be dealt with appropiately why punish everyone ??? Its all blown out of porpotion that"they" wouldn't adhere to a rule in certain areas .....why eradicate all cultures ??


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

I find it strange that women who choose to garb themselves in this attire choose to live in the west. Surely they would be more at home in Saudi or Iraq? On the one hand they are being hard line Muslims and choosing a sharia approach and on the other hand they are living in a Christian country? I think that if I chose to live in a Muslim country I would do my best to fit in. I would still retain my Christian religion but I wouldn't go around shoving it in peoples faces. I also wouldn't go around wearing a bikini and eating a bacon butty because that would be disrespectful and offensive. 
The veil is a choice. Its not mandatory in the Islamic religion nor is it cultural. The majority of Muslim women choose not to wear it.
As stated before it is a way of segregating yourself. By wearing it you are effectively saying to the world I am covering up because men cannot be trusted, you are infering that any woman who shows more than her eyes is being a slut and ultimately it gives out the message that there is something shameful or wrong about the female form. Frankly i find that offensive.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Out of interest, what do they have on their passport photos?

I think if they insist on wearing them, they should be limited in the sort of job they can take. My friend's son works somewhere where they advertised for a front desk receptionist and the job was offered to an Asian woman (in preference to many whites). She was articulate, intelligent and smartly dressed in a businesslike suit and shirt....untIl she turned up on the first day; you guessed it, she turned up wearing the face veil. Told she had to remove it as they thought it inappropriate for a face to face front desk job. You guessed...she sued for racial discrimination and got £70k. But what was so obvious was that she knew the veil was inappropriate for the job, so didn't wear it for the interview. She managed to take it off for that!!


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Goblin said:


> But they don't accept that do they It's religious they argue when it's not. What alternatives are there? Could a law be formed which listed all areas where they were not allowed, potentially needing constant reviews and updates? It's not workable. The only solution is to take the bull by it's horns and say no, it's not acceptable to say "it's my right.. bugger what everyone else has to do".


Personally I don't think a separate law for the veil is required, to me its no different than any other type of face covering - there are certain premises you enter and they want to see your face whether its the local Tesco so you can be identified if you are nicking the pick & mix, airports, hospitals etc. then separate legislation is not required. Not sure its law you can't go into a bank with a crash helmet on, its the rules of the business not the law of the land

If you can stroll down the street dressed as a clown (different thread lol), have a scarf round your face because its freezing etc you can't really say face covering a is acceptable but face covering b isn't. On the same hand I don't believe you should be able to ask to be treated differently down to personal beliefs - Same rules for all


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Calvine said:


> Out of interest, what do they have on their passport photos?
> 
> I think if they insist on wearing them, they should be limited in the sort of job they can take. My friend's son works somewhere where they advertised for a front desk receptionist and the job was offered to an Asian woman (in preference to many whites). She was articulate, intelligent and smartly dressed in a businesslike suit and shirt....untIl she turned up on the first day; you guessed it, she turned up wearing the face veil. Told she had to remove it as they thought it inappropriate for a face to face front desk job. You guessed...she sued for racial discrimination and got £70k. But what was so obvious was that she knew the veil was inappropriate for the job, so didn't wear it for the interview. She managed to take it off for that!!


If that is true then its shameful behaviour, but then you get using unpleasant people in all walks of life


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> If that is true then its shameful behaviour, but then you get using unpleasant people in all walks of life


The employer should have made sit there with it on all day, she might have gotten hacked off, if not her 13 week trial period would have seen her out the door


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

Before I express my opinion on this thorny subject, I would like to mention that I teach Religious Education and that I am French, who has lived in England for the last 25 years.
This said, I believe strongly that if you live abroad you should try to integrate as much as possible and to the best of your abilities.
Wearing a burka is not exactly conductive to this, is it? By all means, wear it in the privacy of your own home but in public places, respect the conventions of your adopted country. 
When I visit Muslims countries, I dress in a way that will not offend the locals.
It is showing respect. In return, I expect the same of people who settle in my country. I find the burka offensive and alien to me. 
France has decided to make a stand. To the people who think that is a slippery slope to dictactorship, I suggest that you read about how France reacted towards the nazi dictator who invaded my country 70 years ago.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Bring back Sarkozy, ma biche! Hollande seems to be going backwards


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> Its all blown out of porpotion that"they" wouldn't adhere to a rule in certain areas .....why eradicate all cultures ??


Yet the very phrase, eradicating all cultures is blowing it all out of proportion isn't it. We are talking about a minority who choose to dress that way.

Let's introduce another line of discussion. It's not even really cultural, it's still boils down to personal choice. In the "culture" there are many acceptable variations of headress. Look at a place like Iran. Does everyone women there wear a full veil... no. Name me one country where full veils are the standard other than places like Afghanistan when it was ruled by the Taliban.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

I haven't had chance to read all the posts to this thread but my opinion would be to ban it, it wasn't long ago that a couple of men dressed as women wearing these veils assaulted a woman who she trusted and thought were female.

People feel threatened by others wearing hoodies, balaclavas etc and the veil is no different. Why cover your face when you know it makes others uncomfortable.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Last word on this one
Reading the posts on this thread it reads to me that 'if' there was ever a public vote regarding the allowance of full facial coverings then the majority would be in favour or a 'ban' 

Shame those in power don't listen to the voices of those that elected them into that role!!


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> I feel that banning people from wearing religious symbols is not respecting people´s right to freedom. People should be allowed to wear what they want especially if it is so important to them. A lot of moslem women wear the veil because of the importance it has to them and they do it freely. This is another example of "everyone do what I want". It is a personal decisión and nobody´s concern. We had a case of a girl here in Spain that was not allowed in school because she refused to take off the veil. Why is it right for the government to forcé people to do away with their beliefs?


But it isn't a religious symbol nowhere in the Koran does it state women should wear these veils.

They are a symbol of oppression of women by men.

I pity any woman who is brain washed into thinking her god requires her to cover her face and limit her view of the world in order to prove her devotion to him.

The girl who didn't attend school parents should have been prosecuted for not allowing her to attend. Its a minority group within the Muslim faith who call for these outrageous veils.

I see nobody calling for the circumcision of women to be allowed yet that too is culturally part of faith and while circumcision is physically and emotionally damaging the veil must damage these women emotionally.

Imagine only seeing the world through a letter box in a black mask, your peripheral vision is limited, people in western cultures react with suspicion toward you, nobody can see your expression, your smile, if you have bruises, if you are sad.

The very thought of these poor women fills me with sadness.

Yes they say they want to wear the veil but its because they are educated from an early age into this culture of subjugation. They know nothing else.

I understand the head covering but to hide your face is to hide your identity and emotion from the world.

It makes me cry to think of people in our culture arguing that this should be allowed on human rights grounds. I'm sure there are many Muslims out there who feel the same.

The Muslim religion is an ancient culture that has educated and developed its people, why would it wish to support a minority who wish to keep their culture as a minority ancient religion which fails to accept he role of women.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Picklelily said:


> But it isn't a religious symbol nowhere in the Koran does it state women should wear these veils.
> 
> They are a symbol of oppression of women by men.
> 
> ...


such an unbiased view , thank you for posting


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I would vote yes to allowing a woman to choose to wear a veil (I can understand the arguments such as a court case etc when it wouldn't be appropriate and accept I'm apparently in the minority on this forum). Picklelily I respect your viewpoint except for the part where it says that 'People in western cultures react with suspicion'. Out of everything that is not a reason to ban it. Some people react with suspicion to people that are heavily tattooed; a goth was murdered for how she looked as she protected her injured partner etc. Is it their fault that some people can't accept the rights of others to express themselves? As someone has mentioned, look how many complained that their children would be frightened by a presenter with one arm. I think those that complained about that should be ashamed of themselves. I also think that when people start making comments to a 2 year old that they are a terrorist simply because they are Muslim we should be focusing our efforts on improving tolerance and respect for others.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I'd be interested if there was a poll attached that gave a range of options and wondered if cinnamontoast could add one?


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Jobeth said:


> I would vote yes to allowing a woman to choose to wear a veil (I can understand the arguments such as a court case etc when it wouldn't be appropriate and accept I'm apparently in the minority on this forum). Picklelily I respect your viewpoint except for the part where it says that 'People in western cultures react with suspicion'. Out of everything that is not a reason to ban it. Some people react with suspicion to people that are heavily tattooed; a goth was murdered for how she looked as she protected her injured partner etc. Is it their fault that some people can't accept the rights of others to express themselves? As someone has mentioned, look how many complained that their children would be frightened by a presenter with one arm. I think those that complained about that should be ashamed of themselves. I also think that when people start making comments to a 2 year old that they are a terrorist simply because they are Muslim we should be focusing our efforts on improving tolerance and respect for others.


Sorry what I was trying to say very inadequately is how the veil must effect the lives of these women. Agree our reaction isn't a reason to ban.

I think I was very tired last night when I wrote that post I had to go do jobs and come back to it. Horrified by my spelling :blink:

Stand by my views though.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Those of you who know me will know that I am a great believer in the rights of women, and will always fight on the side of the oppressed.

However, one thing has struck me very forcibly about this thread. Shadow & Lightning, whio is Muslim, has posted repeatedly that Muslim women are not forced to wear a face covering, and that those who do, do so by choice, not because of oppression.

No-one seems to be listening to her - western women are continuing to insist that it is form of oppression that should be stopped.

Whilst it is right and laudable that women are eager and willing to support oppressed women in other cultures, perhaps we ought to stop and listen to the thoughts, feelings and wishes of women of other cultures before we insist that they are wrong and we are right.

Just a thought.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> However, one thing has struck me very forcibly about this thread. Shadow & Lightning, whio is Muslim, has posted repeatedly that Muslim women are not forced to wear a face covering, and that those who do, do so by choice, not because of oppression.


Yet that isn't the main reasoning within this thread. I know of a woman who converted to islam as they felt wearing the headscarf allowed her to get away from the pressure of matching western female looks. The very fact that it is a choice, not for religious ground which would be forcing them means that they should follow the rules and regulations and culture of the land. Within Law courts are a great example. Can you choose not to remove a motorbike helm within a bank? What's the difference if it's a choice?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Yet that isn't the main reasoning within this thread. I know of a woman who converted to islam as they felt wearing the headscarf allowed her to get away from the pressure of matching western female looks. The very fact that it is a choice, not for religious ground which would be forcing them means that they should follow the rules and regulations and culture of the land. Within Law courts are a great example.


I think you've missed my point. I never said it was the main reasoning within the thread. (If you look back, you'll see that I actually advocate that face coverings of any kind should not be worn in certain circumstances - such as teaching, front line medical staff, in airports, bank etc).

This post was just posing the observation that western women on the thread are preferring to fight for what they perceive as an oppression, rather than listening to a Muslim woman who says it is not a form of oppression.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I think you've missed my point. I never said it was the main reasoning within the thread. (If you look back, you'll see that I actually advocate that face coverings of any kind should not be worn in certain circumstances - such as teaching, front line medical staff, in airports, bank etc).
> 
> *This post was just posing the observation that western women on the thread are preferring to fight for what they perceive as an oppression, rather than listening to a Muslim woman who says it is not a form of oppression*.


Exactly! It would be laughable it wasn't so sad.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Women defended foot-binding. They perform genital mutilation on their daughters. 
So no, a woman who is so brainwashed she believes she must cover her face and body and not take an equal place in the world alongside men has a long way to go to join those of us who are lucky enough to have benefitted from the struggle of our female forbears. 
For those who don`t know - small girls (under 4) had the bones of their feet broken with no anasthetic by strapping them tightly into a deformed bow. |The child was forced to walk on the stump formed by the crippled top of the foot. It was agony and infections were common. 
Genital mutilation is done by holding an adolescent girl down (usually by women) and a razor blade taken to the labia. No anasthetic. It frequently causes permanent and life-long pain due to poor healing. Sexual dysfunction is understandably common. 
So be careful when you say the slaves like their chains. That argument has been used for millennia to excuse oppression and cruelty.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Women defended foot-binding. They perform genital mutilation on their daughters.
> So no, a woman who is so brainwashed she believes she must cover her face and body and not take an equal place in the world alongside men has a long way to go to join those of us who are lucky enough to have benefitted from the struggle of our female forbears.
> For those who don`t know - small girls (under 4) had the bones of their feet broken with no anasthetic by strapping them tightly into a deformed bow. |The child was forced to walk on the stump formed by the crippled top of the foot. It was agony and infections were common.
> Genital mutilation is done by holding an adolescent girl down (usually by women) and a razor blade taken to the labia. No anasthetic. It frequently causes permanent and life-long pain due to poor healing. Sexual dysfunction is understandably common.
> So be careful when you say the slaves like their chains. That argument has been used for millennia to excuse oppression and cruelty.


How patronising for women who choose to wear a certain style of dress!! 

FGM is a completely different arguement anyway


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Women defended foot-binding. They perform genital mutilation on their daughters.
> So no, a woman who is so brainwashed she believes she must cover her face and body and not take an equal place in the world alongside men has a long way to go to join those of us who are lucky enough to have benfitted from the struggle of our female forbears.
> For those who don`t know - small girls (under 4) had the bones of their feet broken with no anasthetic by strapping them tightly into a deformed bow. |The child was forced to walk on the stump formed by the crippled top of the foot. It was agony and infections were common.
> Genital mutilation is done by holding an adolescent girl down (usually by women) and a razor blade taken to the labia. No anasthetic. It frequently causes permanent and life-long pain due to poor healing. Sexual dysfunction is understandably common.
> So be careful when you say the slaves like their chains. That argument has been used for millennia to excuse oppression and cruelty.


There is a huge difference in foot binding and genital mutilation and the _choice _of someone to wear whatever they want.

As you so rightly say, women have fought for our freedoms - but one of those freedom is to be able to dress how we choose. If a Muslim woman _wants_ to cover her face, then western women automatically assuming that she is a brainwashed slave in chains is as wrong as assuming that everyone who wears a hoodie is a knife-wielding gang member.

Some women may indeed be forced into wearing a veil against their wishes, and that is wrong - but some actually chose to wear it, and to tell them that becasue they choose to do so they are brainwashed slaves in chains is actually disempowering them. The great pioneering women of the past did not fight all the battles they did for us to deny freedom of choice to other women.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Women defended foot-binding. They perform genital mutilation on their daughters.
> So no, a woman who is so brainwashed she believes she must cover her face and body and not take an equal place in the world alongside men has a long way to go to join those of us who are lucky enough to have benefitted from the struggle of our female forbears.
> For those who don`t know - small girls (under 4) had the bones of their feet broken with no anasthetic by strapping them tightly into a deformed bow. |The child was forced to walk on the stump formed by the crippled top of the foot. It was agony and infections were common.
> Genital mutilation is done by holding an adolescent girl down (usually by women) and a razor blade taken to the labia. No anasthetic. It frequently causes permanent and life-long pain due to poor healing. Sexual dysfunction is understandably common.
> So be careful when you say the slaves like their chains. That argument has been used for millennia to excuse oppression and cruelty.


Just how 'liberated' are other women anyway when 'designer vaginas' are on the increase, breast enhancements & other cosmetic surgery is increasing.

How many young women now feel they have to look a certain way in order to be attractive, how many women today feel that looking attractive to men is high on their agenda?

Maybe women in our culture are becoming more 'brainwashed' than we think


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> How patronising for women who choose to wear a certain style of dress!!
> 
> FGM is a completely different arguement anyway





Spellweaver said:


> There is a huge difference in foot binding and genital mutilation and the _choice _of someone to wear whatever they want.
> 
> As you so rightly say, women have fought for our freedoms - but one of those freedom is to be able to dress how we choose. If a Muslim woman _wants_ to cover her face, then western women automatically assuming that she is a brainwashed slave in chains is as wrong as assuming that everyone who wears a hoodie is a knife-wielding gang member.
> 
> Some women may indeed be forced into wearing a veil against their wishes, and that is wrong - but some actually chose to wear it, and to tell them that becasue they choose to do so they are brainwashed slaves in chains is actually disempowering them. The great pioneering women of the past did not fight all the battles they did for us to deny freedom of choice to other women.





Cleo38 said:


> Just how 'liberated' are other women anyway when 'designer vaginas' are on the increase, breast enhancements & other cosmetic surgery is increasing.
> 
> How many young women now feel they have to look a certain way in order to be attractive, how many women today feel that looking attractive to men is high on their agenda?
> 
> Maybe women in our culture are becoming more 'brainwashed' than we think


OK, not intending to go off topic! BUT

There is a vast difference between a woman choosing to mutilate their own bodies under GA , then a child having their bodies forcibly mutilated with no GA. And NO I am not daft enough to believe that this is common practice but the very fact that It does happen is barbaric!

And I can't think why one of you feels the need to rolls your eyes at Clare and Daisy, she has just as much right to say her piece as you do!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Jobeth said:


> I'd be interested if there was a poll attached that gave a range of options and wondered if cinnamontoast could add one?


Not after the fact, no. I think I prefer the written word rather than a poll of yes, no, maybe. 

I like the paradox of those posting in defence of the veil saying that those opposed are outrageous to say it shouldn't be worn: oh the irony!


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I thought the question was "should it be banned?" rather than "do we like it?". As in, should it become a criminal offence? IMO, no. For me, one of the crowning glories of living here is that you can more or less be what you like, so long as it doesn't hurt other people. Clothes don't hurt other people.

True, you can carry a bomb under a veil, but you can also carry one in this season's Fendi bag, so that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Some people might find your dress offensive but that's no reason to ban it (we tolerate all manner of quite scary looking people). It may be more difficult to communicate, but if an individual in their private capacity doesn't want to communicate with you, I am not aware of the law that says they have to.

And what would be the consequence of such a law? You might move a few women from the streets, and put them in jail, but not a single man would suffer. A few more women would be confined to their house because their means of leaving it had become illegal. Who then is the oppressor?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

DT said:


> OK, not intending to go off topic! BUT
> 
> There is a vast difference between a woman choosing to mutilate their own bodies under GA , then a child having their bodies forcibly mutilated with no GA. And NO I am not daft enough to believe that this is common practice but the very fact that It does happen is barbaric!
> 
> And I can't think why one of you feels the need to rolls your eyes at Clare and Daisy, she has just as much right to say her piece as you do!


LOL, knew that would be response ... didn't someone earlier point out that we (as a culture) can always justify ourselves by claiming that 'it's not the same' 

FGM is common is some cultures & (from the little I have read) not all are 'forced' in to this practice, many believe that it is part of womanhood & as painful as it is, willingly participate

Why is there a vast difference between women who decide to mutilate themselves, just because one is done under a GA is it really that different?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

DT said:


> OK, not intending to go off topic! BUT
> 
> There is a vast difference between a woman choosing to mutilate their own bodies under GA , then a child having their bodies forcibly mutilated with no GA. And NO I am not daft enough to believe that this is common practice but the very fact that It does happen is barbaric!
> 
> And I can't think why one of you feels the need to rolls your eyes at Clare and Daisy, she has just as much right to say her piece as you do!


LOL, knew that would be response ... didn't someone earlier point out that we (as a culture) can always justify ourselves by claiming that 'it's not the same' 

FGM is common is some cultures & (from the little I have read) not all are 'forced' in to this practice, many believe that it is part of womanhood & as painful as it is, willingly participate

Why is there a vast difference between women who decide to mutilate themselves? Just because one is done under a GA is it really that different?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, knew that would be response ... didn't someone earlier point out that we (as a culture) can always justify ourselves by claiming that 'it's not the same'
> 
> FGM is common is some cultures & (from the little I have read) not all are 'forced' in to this practice, many believe that it is part of womanhood & as painful as it is, willingly participate
> 
> Why is there a vast difference between women who decide to mutilate themselves, just because one is done under a GA is it really that different?





Cleo38 said:


> LOL, knew that would be response ... didn't someone earlier point out that we (as a culture) can always justify ourselves by claiming that 'it's not the same'
> 
> FGM is common is some cultures & (from the little I have read) not all are 'forced' in to this practice, many believe that it is part of womanhood & as painful as it is, willingly participate
> 
> Why is there a vast difference between women who decide to mutilate themselves? Just because one is done under a GA is it really that different?


No need to repeat yourself, I heard the first time


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Each to their own if its not doing anyone any harm looks really uncomfortable and restrictive and hot to me in the summer. I do think that same as we have different opinions on their wearing Muslims women also have many different opinions and reasons for wearing or not wearing.

I am not comfortable with women feeling the need to wear a bit of material over their faces in public for the wrong reasons but understand this is not always the case. Would like to know the reasons why some ladies choose to wear them to improve my understanding?


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Jonescat said:


> I thought the question was "should it be banned?" rather than "do we like it?". As in, should it become a criminal offence? IMO, no. A few more women would be confined to their house because their means of leaving it had become illegal. Who then is the oppressor?


The question certainly wasn't! My title was deliberately very woolly, definitely not a controversial 'should it be banned'. 

Women wouldn't be confined to their house. There is no law in the religion saying they MUST wear the veil: it's a choice or a decision apparently made up by a few non-scholarly extremist clerics who advocated it, so I have learnt throughout the course of this thread.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

(Hope this is big enough to read)


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

I think it is very naive to suggest that all women wearing the veil do so out of some feminist belief and of their own choice. Do we really believe that all women who are going about today dressed head to toe in black with just slits to see out of had a nice discussion with their husband or Dad after putting their copy of 'Fifty shades of grey' down and they said... ooh love its up to you how you dress??!! Cloud cuckoo land!
It is very easy to assume that all women whatever their culture and belief have the same rights and outlook that we in the west have. Well that is not true is it? Try telling that to the 16 year old girl being forcibly shipped over to Pakistan to marry her cousin or the woman who would love to work but is not allowed to by her male relatives? Try telling the girl who lives in fear of her life of a 'honour killing' should she go against her families wishes. 
This is NOT being anti Islam. There are many enlightened Muslims who would never treat their own in such a way but it is an uncomfortable fact that there are some women who are treated appalling. Its not a nice fact to face that there are western vulnerable girls who are groomed and treated as easy meat by some Muslim men, but it happens, it is fact.
The full veil is a symbol of Sharia law which is why you see it in strict countries such as Saudi Arabia. If you think the veil is acceptable then please have the same relaxed approach to the Taliban telling you what to do,forced marriage, honour killings, stonings, beheadings, cutting hands off supposed thieves, having your driving license taking off you and leaving your job if you are a woman, being treated like a second class citizen if you are a non Muslim. Or do we pick the 'bits' that are not so unpalatable and pretend it is the womans 'choice'.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Marycat said:


> I think it is very naive to suggest that all women wearing the veil do so out of some feminist belief and of their own choice. Do we really believe that all women who are going about today dressed head to toe in black with just slits to see out of had a nice discussion with their husband or Dad after putting their copy of 'Fifty shades of grey' down and they said... ooh love its up to you how you dress??!! Cloud cuckoo land!
> It is very easy to assume that all women whatever their culture and belief have the same rights and outlook that we in the west have. Well that is not true is it? Try telling that to the 16 year old girl being forcibly shipped over to Pakistan to marry her cousin or the woman who would love to work but is not allowed to by her male relatives? Try telling the girl who lives in fear of her life of a 'honour killing' should she go against her families wishes.
> This is NOT being anti Islam. There are many enlightened Muslims who would never treat their own in such a way but it is an uncomfortable fact that there are some women who are treated appalling. Its not a nice fact to face that there are western vulnerable girls who are groomed and treated as easy meat by some Muslim men, but it happens, it is fact.
> The full veil is a symbol of Sharia law which is why you see it in strict countries such as Saudi Arabia. If you think the veil is acceptable then please have the same relaxed approach to the Taliban telling you what to do,forced marriage, honour killings, stonings, beheadings, cutting hands off supposed thieves, having your driving license taking off you and leaving your job if you are a woman, being treated like a second class citizen if you are a non Muslim. Or do we pick the 'bits' that are not so unpalatable and pretend it is the womans 'choice'.


a little of topic but were you aware of what was happening in the summer too?

Spoon in underwear saving some British youths from forced marriage


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

DT said:


> a little of topic but were you aware of what was happening in the summer too?
> 
> Spoon in underwear saving some British youths from forced marriage


 Yes I am aware of it but the politically correct brigade like to put a positive spin on forced marriage and pretend that the Mum and Dad are just going out of their way to find a suitable partner. Doesn't really tally with the thousands of calls Muslim charities (yes Muslim) take every year from distressed teenagers being shipped over to Pakistan to marry someone they have never met does it? Lets pretend they have a choice. A bit like the burka really.. Its a choice isn't it??


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> How patronising for women who choose to wear a certain style of dress!!
> 
> FGM is a completely different arguement anyway


I`m sorry you consider female emancipation patronising. Rolling eyes is not a good point in a debate btw. It usually means you lack a cogent response.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, knew that would be response ... didn't someone earlier point out that we (as a culture) can always justify ourselves by claiming that 'it's not the same'
> 
> FGM is common is some cultures & (from the little I have read) not all are 'forced' in to this practice, many believe that it is part of womanhood & as painful as it is, willingly participate
> 
> Why is there a vast difference between women who decide to mutilate themselves, just because one is done under a GA is it really that different?


Seriously? The procedure is done to remove the clitoris and therefore prevent an orgasm. Sorry to be graphic, but that is why it is done. So women do not get an pleasure from sex but remain `property` of the male and therefore are less likely to stray. I`m astounded you find this acceptable.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Marycat said:


> I think it is very naive to suggest that all women wearing the veil do so out of some feminist belief and of their own choice. Do we really believe that all women who are going about today dressed head to toe in black with just slits to see out of had a nice discussion with their husband or Dad after putting their copy of 'Fifty shades of grey' down and they said... ooh love its up to you how you dress??!! Cloud cuckoo land!
> It is very easy to assume that all women whatever their culture and belief have the same rights and outlook that we in the west have. Well that is not true is it? Try telling that to the 16 year old girl being forcibly shipped over to Pakistan to marry her cousin or the woman who would love to work but is not allowed to by her male relatives? Try telling the girl who lives in fear of her life of a 'honour killing' should she go against her families wishes.
> This is NOT being anti Islam. There are many enlightened Muslims who would never treat their own in such a way but it is an uncomfortable fact that there are some women who are treated appalling. Its not a nice fact to face that there are western vulnerable girls who are groomed and treated as easy meat by some Muslim men, but it happens, it is fact.
> The full veil is a symbol of Sharia law which is why you see it in strict countries such as Saudi Arabia. If you think the veil is acceptable then please have the same relaxed approach to the Taliban telling you what to do,forced marriage, honour killings, stonings, beheadings, cutting hands off supposed thieves, having your driving license taking off you and leaving your job if you are a woman, being treated like a second class citizen if you are a non Muslim. Or do we pick the 'bits' that are not so unpalatable and pretend it is the womans 'choice'.


And it is very naive to suggest that all women who choose to wear a veil do so because they are forced into doing so.

I'm not saying the atrocities you outline above don't happen - they do - but if a Muslim woman _chooses_ - note, _chooses_, not _is forced_ to wear a veil then that is a very different thing to what you are saying above.

It is very ironic that a lot of people seem to be completely ignoring and dismissing the fact that a Muslim woman on here has said that it IS a choice. Why are people ignoring her words and thinking that they know better?

Refusing to believe that, continuing to insist that Muslim women who choose to wear the veil don't understand the implications of what they are doing, saying that if they choose to wear a veil then they are also choosing _"forced marriage, honour killings, stonings, beheadings, cutting hands off supposed thieves, having your driving license taking off you and leaving your job if you are a woman, being treated like a second class citizen"_ is at best misguided and at worst arrogant and patronising in the extreme.

Can you (general you, not you personally Marycat) not see that by insisting you are right and that Muslim women who _choose_ to wear the veil don't realise what they are choosing, you are saying that they neither intelligent nor informed enough to make their own choices? Can you not see that you are denying them the power to make the choice for themselves? Can you not see that you are merely forcing another sort of oppression upon them - an oppression in that they must conform to your beliefs or be branded as someone too stupid to realise what they are doing?


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> And it is very naive to suggest that all women who choose to wear a veil do so because they are forced into doing so.
> 
> I'm not saying the atrocities you outline above don't happen - they do - but if a Muslim woman _chooses_ - note, _chooses_, not _is forced_ to wear a veil then that is a very different thing to what you are saying above.
> 
> ...


 How do you know its a choice though?? When you see that girl head to toe in black, how do you know its a choice?? She is hardly like you to tell you. 
As already stated it is a choice in Islam and most Muslims choose not to wear it and actually don't like it. I am just making the point that it is naive to believe that every woman who wears the burka does so because she wants too. The women in Afghanistan threw it off quickly enough when the Taliban could no longer enforce it. If a woman chooses to wear it then all power to her but I feel desperately sorry for the young woman is not given a choice and is segregated from her neighbours and society. Do you really believe that the 13 year old girls wearing this get up (the girls in the newspaper -Muslim school story) are choosing to segregate themselves, ?? I doubt it..


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, knew that would be response ... didn't someone earlier point out that we (as a culture) can always justify ourselves by claiming that 'it's not the same'
> 
> FGM is common is some cultures & (from the little I have read) not all are 'forced' in to this practice, many believe that it is part of womanhood & as painful as it is, willingly participate
> 
> Why is there a vast difference between women who decide to mutilate themselves, just because one is done under a GA is it really that different?


 Do you seriously believe that a pre pubescent girl of 11 years old is willing to be held down and undergo an agonizing procedure to have her genitals mutilated with a razor blade?? To never have a fulfilling sex life and to constantly be at risk of infection and pain?

Sorry to be blunt .. but are you mad??

Aren't you lucky that you were born in the UK and never had to face this 'choice'.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Marycat said:


> Do you seriously believe that a pre pubescent girl of 11 years old is willing to be held down and undergo an agonizing procedure to have her genitals mutilated with a razor blade?? To never have a fulfilling sex life and to constantly be at risk of infection and pain?
> 
> Sorry to be blunt .. but are you mad??
> 
> Aren't you lucky that you were born in the UK and never had to face this 'choice'.


I am fully aware of FGM & the various degrees

Whilst I do not agree this procedure at all & even reading about it is difficult, but this is part of certain cultures whether or not we in the west agree with it. or not.

This is not always against women's consent, women (as Claire & Daisy pointed out earlier) are part of this, although she compared them to being brainwashed. Alot of women who live in these countries where this is common practice (for hundreds of years) see this as 'normal' & part of woman hood ..... although obviously some don't.

I do feel I am lucky to be born in the west, I also feel that I am lucky enough to be able to choose how I dress, etc so that's why I do not feel any government should tell women how to dress when out in public unless there is a specific reason for faces to be shown


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Re the girls being willing to go through with whatever issue, be it FGM, wearing the veil, whatever, I'm not sure 'willing' is the correct term. Expected and part of some families' rituals, therefore the girls don't think they have a choice so 'consent' to it in some classes. I'm quite sure when it comes to the veil, some girls do choose to wear it even if others in their families perhaps don't.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

World of difference between a girl undergoing FGM and a woman choosing to wear a veil imo. Words like consent, harm, adult. Also, just for the record, not all communities practicing FGM are Muslim.

Forcing a woman to wear a veil, physically or culturally, is wrong, but legislating to stop a woman choosing it (and some really do, and with every headline calling for a ban, I believe that you increase the number who might) is also wrong.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Seriously? The procedure is done to remove the clitoris and therefore prevent an orgasm. Sorry to be graphic, but that is why it is done. So women do not get an pleasure from sex but remain `property` of the male and therefore are less likely to stray. I`m astounded you find this acceptable.


Where did I say I found this acceptable?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Fascinatingly fun thread, not like the topic hasnt been hashed out repeatedly before


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes but newly topical in the uk because of an ongoing court case .


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Jonescat said:


> World of difference between a girl undergoing FGM and a woman choosing to wear a veil imo. Words like consent, harm, adult. Also, just for the record, not all communities practicing FGM are Muslim.


I did not liken the two, just because they're in the same sentence  and thanks, I know about FGM not being related to only Muslim communities. When I hear about it, it's generally in tribal areas of Africa.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Marycat said:


> How do you know its a choice though?? When you see that girl head to toe in black, how do you know its a choice?? She is hardly like you to tell you.


Why do you presume I know no Muslim women who wear burkas, women who can and do speak to me about choices?

That to one side, if you read back, you'll see my posts on it being a choice were all related to posts from Shadow & Lightining - who is a Muslim and has posted repeatedly on here _that for some women it is a choice_

That's how I know that for some women, wearing the burka is a choice. 

When you deny a woman the choice to wear what she wants because it doesn't fit in with what you believe is right, then you are the oppressor.

When you deny the fact that some women do choose to wear the burka, then your refusal to accept that they have a choice and are capable of making a choice means you are the oppressor.



Marycat said:


> I am just making the point that it is naive to believe that every woman who wears the burka does so because she wants too.


Again, if you read my posts properly you will see that I have never stated that every woman who wears a burka does so willingly. I have repeatedly and deliberately spoken about those who DO choose to wear it - and I wonder anew why some people on here are so unwilling to admit to themselves that some do wear it through choice - even though a Muslim forum member has repeatedly stated that this is the case.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> Fascinatingly fun thread, not like the topic hasnt been hashed out repeatedly before


You know what they say!
practice make perfectttt


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Article in the Mail today (that most reliable of all newspapers, hahahaha) about an Islamic school in Derby which has made its Christian staff wear a hijab (head covering), whether they want to or not. What price freedom of the individual here?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> When you deny a woman the choice to wear what she wants because it doesn't fit in with what you believe is right, then you are the oppressor.
> 
> When you deny the fact that some women do choose to wear the burka, then your refusal to accept that they have a choice and are capable of making a choice means you are the oppressor.


I haven't read the whole thread, I'm going back to page one, but this is how I feel. If the women have chosen it then I am fine with them wearing one and who am I to say that they cannot wear what they want.

I have spoken to women when out wearing a full burka and I do not feel how others do that you cannot communicate with them on.

I just have to point out something Lowrie Turner said on the wright stuff.
She said that she was against them as the full garb meant the women could not do everyday things like run for a bus. Now she must be against high healed shoes and tight fitting dresses too because you cannot run for a bus in them. Likewise a long maxi dress.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, I'm going back to page one, but this is how I feel. If the women have chosen it then I am fine with them wearing one and who am I to say that they cannot wear what they want.
> 
> I have spoken to women when out wearing a full burka and I do not feel how others do that you cannot communicate with them on.
> 
> ...


Not that I have even seen a woman with a full facial covering driving, but would be interested to know if this does happen.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

For me, the oppression issues is another subject. 

Purely on security rules, head coverings, helmets, hoodies, etc., are not allowed to be worn in certain places. If that is good enough for everyone else, in the name of security and protection, then surely the veil has to be a no-no in those places too. 

As for walking down the road, I feel these women have every right to cover their faces, if that is what they wish to do, just as teens can put their hoodies up, bikers can wear their crash helmets and kids can wear balaclavas. 

Rules are rules and I don't see any reason to bend them for selected members of society.


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## Kyria (Oct 29, 2011)

Do these women really want to wear these full veils, it must be terribly uncomfortable in the hot weather. I just cant understand how anybody would want to wear that all the time.


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Kyria said:


> Do these women really want to wear these full veils, it must be terribly uncomfortable in the hot weather. I just cant understand how anybody would want to wear that all the time.


they arent actually. the material is quite cool etc

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Some of the posts on this thread shock me to the very core of my soul.

Nobody has even attempted to answer why these women would wear the veil and burka if its not in the Koran?

People arguing on both sides of the human rights issue however personally I would say choice is a very difficult thing when your culture and family expect a behaviour of you.

Christian women were expected in biblical times to remove themselves from society once a month and into a woman's only form of Christian purdah. They were a danger and a threat to men at this time. Thank goodness the Christian faith moved forward.

Perhaps some women are educated enough to make a choice in the veil but culture, family and the basic need for somewhere to live will frequently overwhelm that education. 

I have spent today discussing the future with an 18 year old girl who has been told if she doesn't follow her families wishes over the next few months they have told her she will no longer have a place in their home.

This girl is well educated, highly intelligent, literate and has a job and yet she is now terrified for the future because she will be homeless. She cannot see that she has the means to provide for herself because to go against her family will remove her basic needs plus her emotional needs. If she makes the choice her family want its her choice, or is it?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Picklelily said:


> Some of the posts on this thread shock me to the very core of my soul.
> 
> Nobody has even attempted to answer why these women would wear the veil and burka if its not in the Koran?
> 
> ...


It may not state this implicitly in the Koran (I understand that modest dress is required) so I suppose it's interpretation of that, it could be that the woman in question wants to make statement of her religious beliefs, it could be more of a cultural/family thing, there's probably many reasons.

Parents & family dictating how young women should live does not just occur in Muslim families though, it happens in all cultures


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> It may not state this implicitly in the Koran (I understand that modest dress is required) so I suppose it's interpretation of that, it could be that the woman in question wants to make statement of her religious beliefs, it could be more of a cultural/family thing, there's probably many reasons.
> 
> Parents & family dictating how young women should live does not just occur in Muslim families though, it happens in all cultures


Thank you for that explanation. I wouldn't describe the veil as modest dress when its worn in a western culture. Wearing a headdress symbolises faith without the need for a veil. The veil for me a sad thing as it creates separation between Muslims and people from other cultures. How can we communicate and interact happily when you cannot return a smile, a frown, a grin.

When I see a woman with a child being cheeky in the supermarket how can I give that smile of solidarity that goes between mothers of naughty toddlers everywhere in the world if the mother can't show that wry smile and look back. Its these moments that create understanding and integration between cultures.

I didn't say my example was a girl within the Muslim faith. I'm showing how culture and family can force you to make a choice about your dress, your future and to feel you have made a choice when perhaps your choice has been forced.

Anyone read A thousand Splendid Suns? There are excellent descriptions of how it feels to wear a burka.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> It may not state this implicitly in the Koran (I understand that modest dress is required) so I suppose it's interpretation of that, it could be that the woman in question wants to make statement of her religious beliefs, it could be more of a cultural/family thing, there's probably many reasons.
> *
> Parents & family dictating how young women should live does not just occur in Muslim families though, it happens in all cultures*


That's true, but on the whole it is easier for girls (and boys) in a western culture to defy their parents expectations, if they want. They can summon support from people other than their immediate family. In many strict moslem communities, the girls/women may not even leave the house without permission. Everything they do or say is only done or said with the permission of a male relative. To defy her father can lead to a girl being totally ostracised, not only by her family but by the rest of the moslem community. Not unlike the way a century ago, a girl who had an illegitimate baby could be incarcerated in a lunatic asylum. Social pressure is immense. And even if that particular girl's father is comfortable with her not wearing a veil, if all other women in their community do, then there is pressure on him to enforce strict measures on his doughtier. There isn't a simple solution, but I feel that banning the veil at least in some public places (places of high security) will be a step towards liberating those ladies who do NOT want to wear it, but feel unable to refuse..


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Picklelily said:


> People arguing on both sides of the human rights issue however personally I would say choice is a very difficult thing when your culture and family expect a behaviour of you.


And that goes for everyone from every culture, of course. To quote Philip Larkin:

_"They f--k you up, your mum and dad. 
They may not mean to, but they do. " _



Picklelily said:


> Christian women were expected in biblical times to remove themselves from society once a month and into a woman's only form of Christian purdah. They were a danger and a threat to men at this time. Thank goodness the Christian faith moved forward.
> 
> Perhaps some women are educated enough to make a choice in the veil but culture, family and the basic need for somewhere to live will frequently overwhelm that education.


Has it really moved that far forward? The bible states:

_Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven._
1 Corinthians 11:4-5

How many women do you see in church without a hat? To paraphrase your words, perhaps some women are educated enough to make a choice in the matter of not wearing a hat, but culture and the basic need to conform to culture will frequently overwhelm that education. Does that mean that the woman who wears a hat to church is being forced to wear the hat because she feels she has to conform to the prevailing culture - or is does she thnk she has freely made a choice and is happily wearing the hat? And if it is the latter, do I have the right to tell her she is wrong to be happy beacuse she hasn't relly made a choice and is, in fact, being culturally oppressed?



Picklelily said:


> I have spent today discussing the future with an 18 year old girl who has been told if she doesn't follow her families wishes over the next few months they have told her she will no longer have a place in their home.
> 
> This girl is well educated, highly intelligent, literate and has a job and yet she is now terrified for the future because she will be homeless. She cannot see that she has the means to provide for herself because to go against her family will remove her basic needs plus her emotional needs. If she makes the choice her family want its her choice, or is it?


Sounds a very similar story to my OH, who was told at 17 that if he wanted to leave the mine and join the army then he was out on his own and needn't bother coming back home. Even though he would be in the army and knew he would have no problem in supporting himself, the emotional blackmail of losing his family if he did what he wanted instead of what they wanted was very real, so he chose not to join the army. However, it was still a choice, made with all the intelligence and knowledge he had at the time.

For young people to be treated in this way is wrong, but it happens in many ways and in many cultures - even our own.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> And that goes for everyone from every culture, of course. To quote Philip Larkin:
> 
> _"They f--k you up, your mum and dad.
> They may not mean to, but they do. " _
> ...


I will repeat I am not necessarily talking about someone from the Muslim culture. In fact I am not.

Is assuming that I am only referring to a Muslim girl and quoting it back to me as if I don't know that this happens within all faiths implying that you think I am making a racist statement?

I would suggest your husband had very limited choices or no choice at all in that situation. To enter a career such as the army without the emotional support of your family would be extremely difficult.

WE forget as we reach middle age how reliant those rebellious teenagers are on the need to conform and fit in.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> And that goes for everyone from every culture, of course. To quote Philip Larkin:
> 
> *"They f--k you up, your mum and dad.
> They may not mean to, but they do. " *
> ...


It must have been very difficult for him - but he was swapping one family (his parents and siblings) for another (the army). He had the support of the other lads (and it's easier for a male to defy convention anyway). You are right - it is cruel and emotionally destructive, and it happens in families in every culture - and it isn't right in any of them.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Picklelily said:


> I will repeat I am not necessarily talking about someone from the Muslim culture. In fact I am not.
> 
> Is assuming that I am only referring to a Muslim girl and quoting it back to me as if I don't know that this happens within all faiths implying that you think I am making a racist statement?


I think you'll find (if you read my reply to you) that I never once assumed you were talking about a Muslim girl  I never mentioned the Muslim culture - as your reply above shows I took great pains to mention that things you were talking about applied to all cultures. You spoke about how enlightened the christian culture now was and I gave an example of how it might not be so enlightened.

I gave an example of something from my own life that was similar to what the girl you were talking about was going through.

Why, then, have you assumed that I assumed you were speaking about a Muslim girl??!!  And why have you tried to make out as though I am implicitly accusing you of racism?

Believe me (as many on here can testify) if I thought you - or anyone, for that matter - was being racist then I would be very explicit in accusing you. There would be no ifs or buts or maybes about it. You wouldn't be wondering whether I had implied it - you would be in no doubt! 

(btw - Islam is a religion, not a race - you can't be accused of racism if you are speaking about a religious culture. There are Muslims in many races  )


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> I think you'll find (if you read my reply to you) that I never once assumed you were talking about a Muslim girl  I never mentioned the Muslim culture - as your reply above shows I took great pains to mention that things you were talking about applied to all cultures. You spoke about how enlightened the christian culture now was and I gave an example of how it might not be so enlightened.
> 
> I gave an example of something from my own life that was similar to what the girl you were talking about was going through.
> 
> ...


Quite right I apologise.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Ok LOL I haven't read the whole thread I'm to tired and its to long but. They live in our country and they should live by our culture... Speak our language, ok wear the head scarf but our culture is being diluted by catering to every other culture that moves in, it really does need to stop, the British person is a rare creature now, we are so watered down we've allowed so much to be changed! 
BUT I do respect these women from what I understand they have a difficult life, one that doesn't allow them freedom of speech like we have, wearing a veil gives them power , very very hard debate! But we live in a world with lots of grey areas. But also if we went to their country's and acted out our culture we would be ridiculed for it! Cuts both ways really.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

piggybaker said:


> Ok LOL I haven't read the whole thread I'm to tired and its to long but. They live in our country and they should live by our culture... Speak our language, ok wear the head scarf but our culture is being diluted by catering to every other culture that moves in, it really does need to stop, the British person is a rare creature now, we are so watered down we've allowed so much to be changed!
> BUT I do respect these women from what I understand they have a difficult life, one that doesn't allow them freedom of speech like we have, wearing a veil gives them power , very very hard debate! But we live in a world with lots of grey areas. *But also if we went to their country's and acted out our culture we would be ridiculed for it! *Cuts both ways really.


Not ridiculed - imprisoned and probably flogged.

But you are right - there is a British culture, and part of it is to be tolerant of other races and faiths. If it is lost, because of extremists of ANY type, we will have lost something unique and wonderful - and I doubt we'll get it back.


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

lostbear said:


> Not ridiculed - imprisoned and probably flogged.
> 
> But you are right - there is a British culture, and part of it is to be tolerant of other races and faiths. If it is lost, because of extremists of ANY type, we will have lost something unique and wonderful - and I doubt we'll get it back.


that can be disputed

as recent as the early 70's the common sign on boarding house/hotel/restaurant windows was

no irish
no blacks
no dogs


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

skyblue said:


> that can be disputed
> 
> as recent as the early 70's the common sign on boarding house/hotel/restaurant windows was
> 
> ...


Lol a dogs not a race or a faith but yes those signs were there.


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Those of you who know me will know that I am a great believer in the rights of women, and will always fight on the side of the oppressed.
> 
> However, one thing has struck me very forcibly about this thread. Shadow & Lightning, whio is Muslim, has posted repeatedly that Muslim women are not forced to wear a face covering, and that those who do, do so by choice, not because of oppression.
> 
> ...


Very well expressed. We do tend to decide for others and not always listen. I want to give an example of when we see things differently from how others live them.
I lived in Africa for sometime and I did two years of uni there. We used to live in the hostels so it was a very good opportunity to mix with girls from different tribes and backgrounds. Now some tribes permit female circumsicion so I met a number of girls who had been circumcised. In some tribes it was like a coming of age ceremony, girls were looked at in a different way after that, they had a ceremony, got lots of gifts etc and I know some men from those tribes would only marry women who had had it done. Now we were all university students, supposed to have a certian level of exposure and every time the subject came up, those that had done it would urge those of us who hadn´t to do it. I kept asking why and what were the benefits as they gave it so much value and I had read that more than advantages it isn´t recommended for women and can be quite harmful. I got the answer that it was important. Funny enough if one of the reasons is to prevent women from being promiscous, every single girl I knew that was circumcised had a boyfriend and that fact didn´t seem to stop them. My roomate who was 25 at the time we talked about it, told me that they hadn´t done it to her when she was young and 2 years before she went to the hospital to have it done because she realized the importance of it. With this I´m saying that we had a lot of arguments and talked about it and they defended it, except there is secret reason I´m not aware of, I´m totally against it but I found that a lot of people make their own chocies wether we agree with them or not. Not every woman is married against her will and suffering because of it. For me the same goes with the complete veil, , some women freely accept it, I know once a muslim explained the reason why they cover their hair and I understood her reasons and respected them. At the end of the day it seems we like imposing our points of views on others but don´t want ours to be questioned.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> Very well expressed. We do tend to decide for others and not always listen. I want to give an example of when we see things differently from how others live them.
> I lived in Africa for sometime and I did two years of uni there. We used to live in the hostels so it was a very good opportunity to mix with girls from different tribes and backgrounds. Now some tribes permit female circumsicion so I met a number of girls who had been circumcised.* In some tribes it was like a coming of age ceremony, *
> 
> But in others girls are mutilated at a very young age (between 3 and 10 years), often with scissors or razor blades, and without anaesthetic, or post-mutilation care. Is this really their choice?
> ...




Face covering is symbolic of subjugation of women - nothing else. Yes, cover hair if you wish, but covering the face serves the same purpose as those crippling and disfiguring Victorian and Edwardian corsets - it makes women feel that they are being valued and protected while simultaneously robbing them of any autonomy. Ever since the Garden of Eden, men have blamed women for seducing them into immorality, rather than blaming themselves for not controlling their baser impulses. It's about time men of ALL faiths accepted responsibility for their actions and women refused to take the blame.

Shadowandlightening doesn't think women are forced into the veil, and perhaps where she is, they aren't, but many are, or are brought up to accept this without realising its implications - as our grandmothers were, and as young girls in our culture are regarding the pressure to be both thin and large-breasted.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lostbear said:


> Face covering is symbolic of subjugation of women - nothing else.


And therein lies my very point.

It *seems *that way to those of us from a western culture. If I had to cover my face I would certainly feel that I was being subjugated.

But when we have a woman from a different culture telling us that it is not viewed that way in her culture, _should_ we be imposing our cultural views upon the practices of her culture? Should we not be listening, accepting and understanding instead of insisting that we are right?

True integration is built upon an understanding and an acceptance of different cultural views. Judging one culture by the rules of another culture will never lead to integration. Judging one culture by the rules of another culture ultimately leads to aggression, war and destruction of one of the cultures.


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Ban it! No ones face should be hidden in public


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Cheryl89 said:


> Ban it! No ones face should be hidden in public - I actually see this lady on a programme once wearing a full length burka and she somehow managed to shove a crate of water under it and walk out the shop - :lol: And no one could see who it was or noticed .... says it all really!


You've mixed up the storys  it wasnt a muslim in a burka nor was it water 

WOMAN STEALS CRATE OF BEER BY SHOVING UP DRESS MUST WATCH!! - YouTube

If Im wrong feel free to link the one you mentioned. lol


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Cheryl89 said:


> Ban it! No ones face should be hidden in public - I actually see this lady on a programme once wearing a full length burka and she somehow managed to shove a crate of water under it and walk out the shop - :lol: And no one could see who it was or noticed .... says it all really!


So if we're banning it merely to stop shoplifting, are we also going to ban everything else that people use for shoplifting - overcoats, bags, pockets in clothes, etc etc?

ETA - dresses added to list of things we need to ban after seeing WL's vid!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> You've mixed up the storys  it wasnt a muslim in a burka nor was it water
> 
> WOMAN STEALS CRATE OF BEER BY SHOVING UP DRESS MUST WATCH!! - YouTube
> 
> If Im wrong feel free to link the one you mentioned. lol


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Waterlily said:


> You've mixed up the storys  it wasnt a muslim in a burka nor was it water
> 
> WOMAN STEALS CRATE OF BEER BY SHOVING UP DRESS MUST WATCH!! - YouTube
> 
> If Im wrong feel free to link the one you mentioned. lol


OMG that's it! HAAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I seriously just laughed out loud - Okay my bad! sorry babes, was a long time ago lol xxxxxxx


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> So if we're banning it merely to stop shoplifting, are we also going to ban everything else that people use for shoplifting - overcoats, bags, pockets in clothes, etc etc?


Lol not doing it to get into a debate sweets, just saying it should be banned. When in Britain respect our culture. :thumbup:


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Cheryl89 said:


> OMG that's it! HAAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I seriously just laughed out loud - Okay my bad! sorry babes, was a long time ago lol xxxxxxx


This is why its important to post proof links with storys or innocent people get put in bad light.


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Waterlily said:


> This is why its important to post proof links with storys or innocent people get put in bad light.


Sorry  Edited to reflect. :001_huh:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Cheryl89 said:


> Lol not doing it to get into a debate sweets, just saying it should be banned. When in Britain respect our culture. :thumbup:


:lol:

_"The most fatal illusion is the settled point of view. Since life is growth and motion, a fixed point of view kills anybody who has one" _

:thumbup:


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> :lol:
> 
> _"The most fatal illusion is the settled point of view. Since life is growth and motion, a fixed point of view kills anybody who has one" _
> 
> :thumbup:


You're clearly quite childish. I don't like the burka it hides identity, the end. I might as well walk around in a hoodie/motor cycle helmet with your opinions :lol:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Cheryl89 said:


> You're clearly quite childish. I don't like the burka it hides identity, the end. I might as well walk around in a hoodie/motor cycle helmet with your opinions :lol:


Ah, so I'm childish for pointing out your sig belies your post. Hmmm!

You clearly have not read any of my opinions. Please do so before you before you decide arbitrarily what they are. You might be surprised when you come across the post where I say that any kind of face covering should be banned in certain areas such as teaching, medicine, airposts, banks etc.

Your sig is fantastic - I agree with every word of it. Pity your posts don't live up to it


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Ah, so I'm childish for pointing out your sig belies your post. Hmmm!
> 
> You clearly have not read any of my opinions. Please do so before you before you decide arbitrarily what they are. You might be surprised when you come across the post where I say that any kind of face covering should be banned in certain areas such as teaching, medicine, airposts, banks etc.
> 
> Your sig is fantastic - I agree with every word of it. Pity your posts don't live up to it


Oh, so people can't have opinions? I've happened to stumble across the one thing I can't stand and that's the burka regardless of my "signature" of not. End of. No arguments, will take opinions on board and never like "fights" on forums - clearly you do  but that's just some people I suppose :lol: Unless you have read EVERY single one of my posts don't be so quick to judge  Got much more important things to worry about at the mo other then whether people should wear full-face veils or not, was just stating my opinion not for a full scale moan - so I'm out, enjoy your debate


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheryl89 said:


> Lol not doing it to get into a debate sweets, just saying it should be banned. When in Britain respect our culture. :thumbup:


But this where I am confused how is wearing a veil not respecting 'our' culture?

Do you think all types of cultural/religious dress (that's isn't typically British) should be banned then? I'm not being facetious just asking a question?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Ah, so I'm childish for pointing out your sig belies your post. Hmmm!
> 
> You clearly have not read any of my opinions. Please do so before you before you decide arbitrarily what they are. * You might be surprised when you come across the post where I say that any kind of face covering should be banned in certain areas such as teaching, medicine, airposts, banks etc.
> *
> Your sig is fantastic - I agree with every word of it. Pity your posts don't live up to it


Ive avoided posting in this since my first posts, but I agree with that exactly, Im not anti _burka_ just anti _unidentifiable_ in certain places where others are forced to uncover yet ones wearing full face veils arent.


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> But this where I am confused how is wearing a veil not respecting 'our' culture?
> 
> Do you think all types of cultural/religious dress (that's isn't typically British) should be banned then? I'm not being facetious just asking a question?


I just feel it doesn't show any kind of respect and when you walk past them you can't even see if they are smiling or anything...just eyes - Just find it really, really uncomfortable. I know some people don't mind (and if I was to see them out I wouldn't say OMG get that off) but just makes me feel a bit weird that they can see me and I can't see them at all.

Religious stuff defo doesn't bother me hun... I don't care about any of that stuff, would just be nice to see faces! As you can with every other religion.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Cheryl89 said:


> Oh, so people can't have opinions? I've happened to stumble across the one thing I can't stand and that's the burka regardless of my "signature" of not. End of. No arguments, will take opinions on board and never like "fights" on forums - clearly you do  but that's just some people I suppose :lol: *Unless you have read EVERY single one of my posts don't be so quick to judge * Got much more important things to worry about at the mo other then whether people should wear full-face veils or not, was just stating my opinion not for a full scale moan - so I'm out, enjoy your debate


Ah - so you can do that with me, but complain when I do the same to you? Double standards or what?

I'm not wanting a fight - *you* were the one who started name calling and throwing accusations around. If you prefer to dictate your your opinions to everyone rather than debate then fine; you are entitled to do that - but then don't start attacking people, calling them names, and making suppositions about _their_ opinions if you don't want them to retaliate in kind.


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Ah - so you can do that with me, but complain when I do the same to you? Double standards or what?
> 
> I'm not wanting a fight - *you* were the one who started name calling and throwing accusations around. If you prefer to dictate your your opinions to everyone rather than debate then fine; you are entitled to do that - but then don't start attacking people, calling them names, and making suppositions about _their_ opinions if you don't want them to retaliate in kind.


I think you'll find you started it first  I merely wrote an opinion and you followed it on. I told you I'm not getting into a debate then you starting putting laughing faces... it's really condescending. But hey ho, you don't have to like everybody right


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Cheryl89 said:


> I think you'll find you started it first  I merely wrote an opinion and you followed it on.


That's what tends to happens on forums. People debate things.



Cheryl89 said:


> I told you I'm not getting into a debate then you starting putting laughing faces... it's really condescending.


Pot, kettle black - tell yourself what you want but the posts are their for all to see!



Cheryl89 said:


> But hey ho, you don't have to like everybody right


You certainly don't - I prefer people whio are grown up enough to debate properly.

And now I have wasted enough time on your childishness.


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> That's what tends to happens on forums. People debate things.
> 
> Pot, kettle black - tell yourself what you want but the posts are their for all to see!
> 
> ...


Okay hun  As I said, I'm out


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Alot of women who live in these countries where this is common practice (for hundreds of years) see this as 'normal' & part of woman hood ..... although obviously some don't.


Normal for the culture they are subject to. Like killing girl babies may be normal, or stoning a woman to death for being raped is normal in some places. Not normal for civilised or ethical behaviour. 
I`m assuming you don`t support the cultural practices of throwing donkeys off church towers or setting fire to cattle for entertainments and `cultural traditions`? Or do you? 
If you don`t - are you not prepared to grant women the same priviledge as donkeys or cattle? The right to be treated with respect and humanity?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Do you think all types of cultural/religious dress (that's isn't typically British) should be banned then? I'm not being facetious just asking a question?


Nope, just those that fully cover the faces, that is with the exception of any face covering needed for safety measures whilst at work.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

*ding dong
round 7*​


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

lostbear said:


> Face covering is symbolic of subjugation of women - nothing else. Yes, cover hair if you wish, but covering the face serves the same purpose as those crippling and disfiguring Victorian and Edwardian corsets - it makes women feel that they are being valued and protected while simultaneously robbing them of any autonomy. Ever since the Garden of Eden, men have blamed women for seducing them into immorality, rather than blaming themselves for not controlling their baser impulses. It's about time men of ALL faiths accepted responsibility for their actions and women refused to take the blame.
> 
> Shadowandlightening doesn't think women are forced into the veil, and perhaps where she is, they aren't, but many are, or are brought up to accept this without realising its implications - as our grandmothers were, and as young girls in our culture are regarding the pressure to be both thin and large-breasted.


I´m not at all for female circumcision, I´m relating my experience and what has been directly said to me. I´m stating that it´s not always black or white and that wether we like it or not, people make decisions all the time that we don´t always agree with just as we do. We expect people to respect us and ours. All the girls who were for circumsion that spoke to me were sexually active and none were married at the time, they were not being forced to have sex but did because they wanted to. So personally I can understand someone advocating for something that has been done to her because it´s all she knows and she has been made to feel proud of it but I can´t understand my roomate who went on her own, an adult in her twenties to a hospital to have it done. What can one say to that? you can call it brainwash or what you want but it was her decision, her choice and somehow wearing a total veil, really does not harm any of us. Why are we making it our business just because we can´t accept the fact that some decide to wear such garments? They are adult women and not children, they don´t have to be miserable or feel guilty just to please people who don´t take time to understand them.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Cheryl89 said:


> Ban it! No ones face should be hidden in public





Cheryl89 said:


> OMG that's it! HAAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I seriously just laughed out loud - Okay my bad! sorry babes, was a long time ago lol xxxxxxx





Cheryl89 said:


> Lol not doing it to get into a debate sweets, just saying it should be banned. When in Britain respect our culture. :thumbup:





Cheryl89 said:


> Sorry  Edited to reflect. :001_huh:





Cheryl89 said:


> You're clearly quite childish. I don't like the burka it hides identity, the end. I might as well walk around in a hoodie/motor cycle helmet with your opinions :lol:





Spellweaver said:


> Ah, so I'm childish for pointing out your sig belies your post. Hmmm!
> 
> You clearly have not read any of my opinions. Please do so before you before you decide arbitrarily what they are. You might be surprised when you come across the post where I say that any kind of face covering should be banned in certain areas such as teaching, medicine, airposts, banks etc.
> 
> Your sig is fantastic - I agree with every word of it. Pity your posts don't live up to it





Cheryl89 said:


> Oh, so people can't have opinions? I've happened to stumble across the one thing I can't stand and that's the burka regardless of my "signature" of not. End of. No arguments, will take opinions on board and never like "fights" on forums - clearly you do  but that's just some people I suppose :lol: Unless you have read EVERY single one of my posts don't be so quick to judge  Got much more important things to worry about at the mo other then whether people should wear full-face veils or not, was just stating my opinion not for a full scale moan - so I'm out, enjoy your debate





Cheryl89 said:


> I just feel it doesn't show any kind of respect and when you walk past them you can't even see if they are smiling or anything...just eyes - Just find it really, really uncomfortable. I know some people don't mind (and if I was to see them out I wouldn't say OMG get that off) but just makes me feel a bit weird that they can see me and I can't see them at all.
> 
> Religious stuff defo doesn't bother me hun... I don't care about any of that stuff, would just be nice to see faces! As you can with every other religion.





Cheryl89 said:


> I think you'll find you started it first  I merely wrote an opinion and you followed it on. I told you I'm not getting into a debate then you starting putting laughing faces... it's really condescending. But hey ho, you don't have to like everybody right





Cheryl89 said:


> Okay hun  As I said, I'm out


Fail to see where Cheryl has said anything that is arguementive nor terrible!
Like others she has just stated HER views! some of us don't analalize every last word that other members have written, I certainly don't.
No need for you to opt out sweetie, you keep posting


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

It's a terrible thing to be persecuted for what you choose to believe in.

It's also a terrible realisation knowing someone doesn't like you enough that they'd make up stories about you just to give foundation to their cause.

Here's just three heinous examples of systematic maltreatment of a group of people;

The black man

The Jew

The homosexual

When we've grown tired of tearing down the lives of Muslims, who will be next I wonder?

The devil will always get others to shovel his coal.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

DT said:


> Fail to see where Cheryl has said anything that is arguementive nor terrible!
> Like others she has just stated HER views! some of us don't analalize every last word that other members have written, I certainly don't.
> No need for you to opt out sweetie, you keep posting


Here you go DT - you can do lots more stirring with these.


----------



## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> It may not state this implicitly in the Koran (I understand that modest dress is required) so I suppose it's interpretation of that, it could be that the woman in question wants to make statement of her religious beliefs, it could be more of a cultural/family thing, there's probably many reasons.
> 
> Parents & family dictating how young women should live does not just occur in Muslim families though, it happens in all cultures


Of course you are right, oppression happens in all cultures and religions but it appears to me that it is far more common in the Muslim faith. Again I am not being rascist just honest. You don't tend to get Christian kids putting metal objects in their underwear so customs are alerted to the fact that they are being taken abroad to marry against their will do you? And it is worth noting that it is Muslim charities that are advising the teenagers to do this..
It is also a fact that by far the biggest amount of seriously disabled babies being born in this country belong to the Muslim community because a sector of Muslims will keep on with ridiculous and dangerous tradition of marrying cousins. Never mind what sort of life the poor kid will have.Again we are being warned of this by a Muslim (Baroness Warsi) who frequently talks about the issues that we liberal western people pretend are ok because we are scared of being labelled rascist.
It is not ok to force someone to marry someone against their belief, it is not ok to practice incest so the blood line is pure.It is not ok that cruel methods of slaughter are practised in this country (for any religion) and that Halal meat as found its way into British schools.The veil is not worn by the vast majority of Muslims, do we really believe the ones who choose too dress like this are moderate in their other beliefs.
As stated before I was born into the Roman Catholic religion and I think a lot of what the pope preaches is dangerous and wrong. I have no issue if anyone wants to start a thread on Catholics. I am not attacking the Muslim people, I am attacking dangerous & outdated beliefs - and the full veil is a symbol of this!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Here you go DT - you can do lots more stirring with these.


Awhhh thank you so very much SW
you've made my day, the one I normally use is totally worn out and no longer effective

Back to work
xxxx


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> *I´m not at all for female circumcision, I´m relating my experience and what has been directly said to me*.
> 
> Sorry if I seemed critical - I didn't mean to, and you did state that you were against FGM yourself. But in the same way our culture places ridiculous pressure on girls to be thin (which is wrong and cruel), theirs obviously places pressure on them to undergo this horrible procedure. It may be a pressure they aren't consciously aware of, but it is there
> 
> ...


As you rightly say, there is no easy answer to this. But the fact is that it is NOT a religious requirement; it can be harmful to the women themselves; it breeds resentment in many areas which leads to prejudice; and in these times of high security, it is carte blanche for anyone who wants to abuse it.

I wonder what will happen if one day a veiled lady abducts a child from school, because no-one knows that she isn't the child's mother or a relative?

There are many cultures which could claim that covering the face is valid - a lot of gang cultures do - how far do we go?


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Zaros said:


> It's a terrible thing to be persecuted for what you choose to believe in.
> 
> It's also a terrible realisation knowing someone doesn't like you enough that they'd make up stories about you just to give foundation to their cause.
> 
> ...


Islam is very strict regarding these two categories.


----------



## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Zaros said:


> It's a terrible thing to be persecuted for what you choose to believe in.
> 
> It's also a terrible realisation knowing someone doesn't like you enough that they'd make up stories about you just to give foundation to their cause.
> 
> ...


 You are right it is a terrible thing to demonize any culture or religion. However there is a world of difference between maltreating a homosexual who actually is not hurting anyone or imposing their beliefs on others and pointing out that many innocent people are in fact hurt and oppressed by the religion they belong to. It is not anti Islam to point out that there is a certain sector of this religion that are so intolerant they cause harm and hurt. Lets go back to the homosexual, how to you think that goes down in the Muslim religion?? I am sure it goes down really well in Iraq. What about their rights?
It is never wrong to point out when a certain tradition or culture is harmful. Fox hunting springs to mind in this country, or how about the lovely tradition we had of sticking unmarried mothers in homes and forcing them to give up their babies? Do we just turn a blind eye to the unsavoury aspects of any other culture do we - in this country right under our noses??!


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Marycat said:


> Of course you are right, oppression happens in all cultures and religions but it appears to me that it is far more common in the Muslim faith. Again I am not being rascist just honest. You don't tend to get Christian kids putting metal objects in their underwear so customs are alerted to the fact that they are being taken abroad to marry against their will do you? And it is worth noting that it is Muslim charities that are advising the teenagers to do this..
> It is also a fact that by far the biggest amount of seriously disabled babies being born in this country belong to the Muslim community because a sector of Muslims will keep on with ridiculous and dangerous tradition of marrying cousins. Never mind what sort of life the poor kid will have.Again we are being warned of this by a Muslim (Baroness Warsi) who frequently talks about the issues that we liberal western people pretend are ok because we are scared of being labelled rascist.
> It is not ok to force someone to marry someone against their belief, it is not ok to practice incest so the blood line is pure.It is not ok that cruel methods of slaughter are practised in this country (for any religion) and that Halal meat as found its way into British schools.The veil is not worn by the vast majority of Muslims, do we really believe the ones who choose too dress like this are moderate in their other beliefs.
> As stated before I was born into the Roman Catholic religion and I think a lot of what the pope preaches is dangerous and wrong. I have no issue if anyone wants to start a thread on Catholics. I am not attacking the Muslim people, I am attacking dangerous & outdated beliefs - and the full veil is a symbol of this!


It appears to you.... that's the point that I have a problem with (no offence honestly!). Most people tend to get their opinions via that tabloid press (& again if yolu have read up on this, etc then I apologise!) & not through unbiased & informed material. The tabloid press loves to stigmatise certain individuals; single mothers, Polish people, Muslims, etc & there are constant stories about how 'they' (whatever group is topic that week) are either getting all 'our' houses, 'our' jobs, want to cancel Christmas or whatever.

I don't think there should be any fear to discuss certain things without the fear of being called bigoted although it does seem (to me) that persecution of Muslim people is becoming worse.

I agree that there are things that seem to be more common place amongst certain parts of the Muslim community that should not be ignored, I agree that there seems to be too much fear of being accused of racism if agencies intervene which again is wrong.

As for 'cruel' methods of slaughter I have posted about this times & time again but no one is interested. There is little difference between the actual method of slaughter for halal & non halal for some animals, if you read up on this (no one does though) you will see that even some meat which is classed as halal has been prepared in a traditional British way but blessed. (If you take a look at some website they cite that 90% of British meat classed as halal has actually been stunned

In post #19 I added some link that I thought people would find interesting .... but I don't think those so against this even bothered to read them! http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/278032-tesco-halal-2.html


----------



## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

lostbear said:


> Shadowandlightening doesn't think women are forced into the veil, and perhaps where she is, they aren't, but many are, or are brought up to accept this without realising its implications - as our grandmothers were, and as young girls in our culture are regarding the pressure to be both thin and large-breasted.


ok don't get me wrong, I do realise that some people are forced into it, but that's more control than religion in my opinion. The only friend of mine that classes herself as being forced to cover up when she does not want to, is a catholic friend, who's parents are extremely controlling, she isn't allowed out past 8, not allowed to drink, not allowed to speak to boys, I know her from uni and once walked with her to hers and in front of me she was told not to speak to me again or go near foreigners, I was born and brought up in Liverpool like but it seems cause im brown im a foreigner. Annoying cause they are welsh and have lived here three years lol.

Anyway my muslim friends aren't in any way forced to wear their hijab (head scarf) and a few of them do wear the full veil because they feel more comfortable in them, yeah I probably do come from modern day Islam, but I also know muslim women in their 80s and I know muslims from all races and some of them even reverted from Christianity.

Obviously, I don't know every muslim and just because I am muslim doesn't mean I am all knowing about the religion.. and tbh, I do think in the likes of banks airports etc the full veil should be removed. But, I don't think it should be banned, it doesn't harm anyone, if it creeps people out then that's just their sheer ignorance and whatever else.



lostbear said:


> Islam is very strict regarding these two categories.


lets not turn this into a Jews vs muslims thing, there is enough of that going on in the world - however, muslims actually would much prefer a Jew than say a Sikh or Hindu because Jews believe in one God whereas Sikh and Hindus believe in multiple. Islam has quite a problem with that theory. The jew thing as far as I know is just about some land that was supposedly promised to the Jews.. I might be wrong. The religions are actually quite similar in their practices too, no pig, no alcohol, circumcision etc etc.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DT said:


> *ding dong
> round 7*​


I personally don't know how you all have the energy to still be endlessly debating this. :lol:

I opted out of this thread 25 pages ago! :mad2: DAYS ago!


----------



## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

tillysdream said:


> I personally don't know how you all have the energy to still be endlessly debating this. :lol:
> 
> I opted out of this thread 25 pages ago! :mad2: DAYS ago!


I skipped quite a few pages but my name keeps getting brought up, being the only muslim in the village lol


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> I skipped quite a few pages but my name keeps getting brought up, being the only muslim in the village lol


I can't be bothered to read the other 25 pages, so I can relate to you skipping....

You have my sympathy (not for being a Muslim), but for endlessly being "brought up". (((hug)))


----------



## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

I was at heathrow airport and turned round to find a lady wearing a full face outfit, gave me the fright of my life. I worked for many years for the MOD and often had exercises whereby 'terrorists' would try to gain entry to the camp, they were in full camouflage with their faces covered. Every day before getting in my vehicle I had to use a mirror to check for bombs and was checked again before entering the camp. At Christmas only half of the staff were allowed to go out and celebrate at a time in case we were targeted. This was after the hotel we chose to have our dinner at was searched by the security services. Even now our council has provided us with a pamphlet outlining what to do in case of a terrorist threat. Seeing this woman reminded me of the risk of have people arround who we cant identify. So as you can gather I am particularly au fait when it comes to terrorism and believe they should be banned.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

tillysdream said:


> I personally don't know how you all have the energy to still be endlessly debating this. :lol:
> 
> I opted out of this thread 25 pages ago! :mad2: DAYS ago!


you need to train harder TD
Us oldies have more staying power


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> I skipped quite a few pages but my name keeps getting brought up, being the only muslim in the village lol


Not by me it never!
As I said on your wall it was over and done with a far as I was concerned!
You chose to drag it out!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

It has been noted that the 'red' rep is doing the rounds again!
How very adult of you!


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

tillysdream said:


> I personally don't know how you all have the energy to still be endlessly debating this. :lol:
> 
> I opted out of this thread 25 pages ago! :mad2: DAYS ago!


Lightweight!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

lostbear said:


> Lightweight!


Definitely!
Thought we had trained TD better then that


----------



## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

S&L my cousin is a Muslim, my aunt married into the faith. When she comes here she wears the hijab. When I visit them I must alter how I dress and behave (it don't mind it in the slightest I respect their culture). What is the difference, faith wise, between the two? When I'm visiting I can understand the full veil, I offeres protection from the sun and sand, it's a practical aswel as religious item of clothing.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

munchkinpie said:


> & When I'm visiting I can understand the full veil, I offeres protection from the sun and sand, it's a practical aswel as religious item of clothing.


Factor 50 is currently half price in boots, may be worth stocking up


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DT said:


> Definitely!
> Thought we had trained TD better then that


I have my hands full elsewhere lol :lol: 

Can't spread myself too thinly now, can I!?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

munchkinpie said:


> S&L my cousin is a Muslim, my aunt married into the faith. When she comes here she wears the hijab. When I visit them I must alter how I dress and behave (it don't mind it in the slightest I respect their culture). .


Think you hit it on the head sweetie!! When *YOU* go *THERE* you respect *THEIR* culture!

and for your information so do I.


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

lostbear said:


> Lightweight!


I so am lightweight these days, life is far too short!!! x


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

DT said:


> Think you hit it on the head sweetie!! When *YOU* go *THERE* you respect *THEIR* culture!
> 
> and for your information so do I.


But unveiling for banks and schools etc has nothing to do with culture, its to do with rules and safety in those places that applys (should) to all citizens. Other then those areas it shouldnt matter if they wear their religious clothing, Lets face it English culture now includes more then just white christians and has for many many years so its kinda silly to push all other cultures out bar that one  All should be respected but all should abide by rules as well.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> But unveiling for banks and schools etc has nothing to do with culture, its to do with rules and safety in those places that applys (should) to all citizens. Other then those areas it shouldnt matter if they wear their religious clothing, Lets face it English culture now includes more then just white christians and has for many many years so its kinda silly to push all other cultures out bar that one  All should be respected but all should abide by rules as well.


But as many have said WL its NOT necessiarily culture, its choice( apart from two or three mad clerics (whatever ya call em) !! ) 
If we all decide to go out tomorrow with a paper bag on our heads we would be charged with causing a breach of the peace! 
There is no place for them , and no need either!
Scarfs covering the hair I have no problem with - but that's it!


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

DT said:


> But as many have said WL its NOT necessiarily culture, its choice( apart from two or three mad clerics (whatever ya call em) !! )
> If we all decide to go out tomorrow with a paper bag on our heads we would be charged with causing a breach of the peace!
> There is no place for them , and no need either!
> Scarfs covering the hair I have no problem with - but that's it!


no I mean British culture  lol you want them to respect your culture ? ... well how's it affect yours exactly if they wear a burka? As for banks etc thats an identity issue not a culture one. They live there and prolly were born there most of them so its their country a much as yours. So Im confused by what bit of it you are against.


----------



## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

This is going to go on for many, many weeks I can just tell


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Cheryl89 said:


> This is going to go on for many, many weeks I can just tell


only till closing time :lol:


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> no I mean British culture  lol you want them to respect your culture ? ... well how's it affect yours exactly if they wear a burka? As for banks etc thats an identity issue not a culture one. They live there and prolly were born there most of them so its their country a much as yours. So Im confused by what bit of it you are against.


No! I don't want them to respect our culture, what I want them to do is (in public ) adopt our western ways, they accept everything else we have on offer so why the need to cover up their faces when the reach pubity???? BECAUSE at the end of the day it does not stop there!


----------



## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Waterlily said:


> only till closing time :lol:


Tehehehe, which will be very soon I imagine!!


----------



## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

Factor 50 doesn't protect you from sand storms though. I was referring to to them being purposeful in Arab states like Saudi.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Just a off topic interesting fact that the above post reminded me of...... camels have three eyelids to protect their eyes from sandstorms...... ook carry on


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

munchkinpie said:


> Factor 50 doesn't protect you from sand storms though. I was referring to to them being purposeful in Arab states like Saudi.


The UK weather cannot be compared with the Saudi weather, and my husband worked there too!


----------



## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

Blimey 3 eye lids....imagine how much make up we'd need with all of that!!!!


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Cheryl89 said:


> Blimey 3 eye lids....imagine how much make up we'd need with all of that!!!!


lol I dont wear any.. tho i should


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> Just a off topic interesting fact that the above post reminded me of...... camels have three eyelids to protect their eyes from sandstorms...... ook carry on


In the UK we have goggle's should we ever have a sandstorm.

afternote!
WL is the cause of a shortage of goggles in the UK as everyone rushes out to buy a pair!


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

DT said:


> In the UK we have goggle's should we ever have a sandstorm.
> 
> afternote!
> WL is the cause of a shortage of goggles in the UK as everyone rushes out to buy a pair!


Im to tired to know if thats an insult  so *bends over and pats cheek for lips... just incase :lol:


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Anyway! DT replaces silly head with serious head! Back on Topic

And asks, from someone who can reply with 100% certainty please?

Why the need to for these woman to wear a full facial covering in the UK

1. Choice
2. Religion
3. Force
4. defience


----------



## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

:lol: you lot make me laugh!! No WL course you don't have to wear make up!! I do thou if I didn't id look like a frog  (not that there's anything wrong with frogs before anyone puts my ass in the fire) lol


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> Im to tired to know if thats an insult  so *bends over and pats cheek for lips... just incase :lol:


 as if someone could insult WL


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DT said:


> Anyway! DT replaces silly head with serious head! Back on Topic
> 
> And asks, from someone who can reply with 100% certainty please?
> 
> ...


Christ, are you not bored of discussing this subject yet? :scared:

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

tillysdream said:


> Christ, are you not bored of discussing this subject yet? :scared:
> 
> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


You have a problem with that?:

And NO! Ill never get tired!


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Just some refreshments for the interval :lol:


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> Just some refreshments for the interval :lol:


I need popcorn


----------



## Guest (Sep 22, 2013)

DT said:


> Why the need to for these woman to wear a full facial covering in the UK
> 
> .6


Not had time to shave maybe?


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

jon bda said:


> Not had time to shave maybe?


Thanks jon  for reminding me of my ever increasing bum fluff on my face as I age  :lol: :scared:


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

DT said:


> I need popcorn


I advise skipping the popcorn, and finding another thread sweetie hee hee.  :lol: xx


----------



## Guest (Sep 22, 2013)

Waterlily said:


> Thanks jon  for reminding me of my ever increasing bum fluff on my face as I age  :lol: :scared:


I'm trying to convince myself that the flecks of grey in my face fuzz make me look 'distinguished' somehow...hmm...
:lol:


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

So just out of sheer curiosity would a Muslim find it offense if a non Muslim wore the burka?


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

jon bda said:


> I'm trying to convince myself that the flecks of grey in my face fuzz make me look 'distinguished' somehow...hmm...
> :lol:


lol Ive found the odd grey in my eyebrows  ...emphasis on odd..


----------



## tillysdream (Sep 23, 2009)

Firedog said:


> So just out of sheer curiosity would a Muslim find it offense if a non Muslim wore the burka?


Oh nooooo shhhhhhh, cue another 30 pages of discussion about that one.....  :lol:


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Cheryl89 said:


> This is going to go on for many, many weeks I can just tell


You're right there. Don't anybody post anything until I've made a cup of tea, had a wee, and can settle in for the duration.

Would anyone like a hobnob?


----------



## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

jon bda said:


> I'm trying to convince myself that the flecks of grey in my face fuzz make me look 'distinguished' somehow...hmm...
> :lol:


Nothing wrong with flecks....can make some men even more fooking sexy..:thumbup:


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Firedog said:


> So just out of sheer curiosity would a Muslim find it offense if a non Muslim wore the burka?


How would they know?


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

tillysdream said:


> Oh nooooo shhhhhhh, cue another 30 pages of discussion about that one.....  :lol:


Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!


----------



## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

I have a huge spot that refuses to die. I think the Burka is the answer!! Maybe this is why some women wear them? They are acne ridden 
Personally I opted out of religion a long time ago. The Roman Catholic religion is more corrupt than a greedy politician on the make. Do I really need Father so and so to tell me how to live my life and to absolve me of my sins? Even if it was murder the confessional is sacred!! No I don't think I bloody well do. I have a brain and a conscience and I don't need anyone to tell me how to live. I can't help but think religion is the root of all evil. How many wars must we go through to prove this?


----------



## Guest (Sep 22, 2013)

Lavenderb said:


> Nothing wrong with flecks....can make some men even more fooking sexy..:thumbup:


How many times love, i'm married alright...jeez, when did this turn into a dating site?
:lol:


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Firedog said:


> So just out of sheer curiosity would a Muslim find it offense if a non Muslim wore the burka?


When my daughter was flight attendant in Saudi Arabia, she was required to wear a burka if she left the hotel complex, so no, they wouldn't be offended. They would be offended if she had gone out into the town without one. I don't know if they would be offended if she wore it in this country though.

She was also not allowed to wear her crucifix, either with that airline or with Virgin in case it upset the non christians.

~Anything that requires identification in this country requires that the face veils be removed, in a private room if possible. For instance, if a woman is taking her driving test, she will be required to go into another room and remove her veil for identification and they would, if possible, find a female to do it. If she doesn't comply, she is not allowed to take the test.

One of the muslim pupils who was born and raised in England, wore all the gear and her sister wore the face veil. It was her choice, nobody else's. I don't know why everyone assumes that it is the men who make them wear them. They cover their hair, as do Jewish women, of their own accord.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> ~. For instance, if a woman is taking her driving test, she will be required to go into another room and remove her veil for identification and they would, if possible, find a female to do it. If she doesn't comply, she is not allowed to take the test.
> 
> .


Awh! but are they allowed to drive whilst wearing a full veil would you know newfie?


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

DT said:


> Awh! but are they allowed to drive whilst wearing a full veil would you know newfie?


They are, yes, at least in this country. So long as it doesn't restrict their view of the road, which it wouldn't. You are allowed to drive with tunnel vision, you just have to turn your head a lot and they would have to do the same. No different from wearing varifocal lenses, actually, which I took back to the opticians in disgust!

Of course, if they get stopped by the police and required to prove their identity, they would have to go to the cop shop where a female officer would ask them to remove their burkas or veils.

In Saudi, of course, women aren't allowed to drive anyway (or smoke):scared:


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

jon bda said:


> How many times love, i'm married alright...jeez, when did this turn into a dating site?
> :lol:


She said SOME men Hon - don't get yer hopes up.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

DT said:


> It has been noted that the 'red' rep is doing the rounds again!
> How very adult of you!


Really? Whose got red rep for what? I'm expecting some momentarily for apparently being a useless all round nasty person on my other thread. Oh woe is me!  I have just made rosehip syrup if anyone has some decent vanilla ice cream....? Me and the OH took half of the hips from a nearby bush, the huge mushy ones.


----------



## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Really? Whose got red rep for what? I'm expecting some momentarily for apparently being a useless all round nasty person on my other thread. Oh woe is me!  I have just made rosehip syrup if anyone has some decent vanilla ice cream....? Me and the OH took half of the hips from a nearby bush, the huge mushy ones.


YOU ARE FAR from a useless all round nasty person, you are super lovely - ignore them prats, ill give you a green for that babes  xxxxx


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2013)

lostbear said:


> She said SOME men Hon - don't get yer hopes up.


I like to give her a little hope i'm still available...
:lol:


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Cheryl89 said:


> YOU ARE FAR from a useless all round nasty person, you are super lovely - ignore them prats, ill give you a green for that babes  xxxxx


Thanks, back at you! How's your youngster? Is he feeling sorry for himself? One of mine's on three legs this week, vet can't find anything wrong!!


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Thanks, back at you! How's your youngster? Is he feeling sorry for himself? One of mine's on three legs this week, vet can't find anything wrong!!


She's in a bad way Hun  feel terrible leaving her in the crate but what can I do  hard to carry her everywhere too but she's my baby so I gotta try hard for her! Oh really???  poor mite!!! Hope for a speedy recovery xxxx


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Best place for her. It's hard but I did it twice with cruciate operations with one of mine, so worth it afterwards!


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> When my daughter was flight attendant in Saudi Arabia, she was required to wear a burka if she left the hotel complex, so no, they wouldn't be offended. They would be offended if she had gone out into the town without one. I don't know if they would be offended if she wore it in this country though.
> 
> She was also not allowed to wear her crucifix, either with that airline or with Virgin in case it upset the non christians.
> 
> ...


 See this is what winds me up. As a western woman your daughter was not allowed to walk about town without covering herself up and couldn't wear her crucifix?? What a very tolerant attitude they have. And here we are bending over backwards to ensure we don't offend anyone in the UK. On the one hand is makes me proud to live in such a tolerant country but it also makes me think why the hell do we bother?? It doesn't seem to work both ways..


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> They are, yes, at least in this country. So long as it doesn't restrict their view of the road, which it wouldn't. You are allowed to drive with tunnel vision, you just have to turn your head a lot and they would have to do the same. No different from wearing varifocal lenses, actually, which I took back to the opticians in disgust!
> 
> Of course, if they get stopped by the police and required to prove their identity, they would have to go to the cop shop where a female officer would ask them to remove their burkas or veils.
> 
> In Saudi, of course, women aren't allowed to drive anyway (or smoke):scared:


 Not allowed a ***??!! Seriously??! Jesus wept.. That really is the limit..


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Marycat said:


> See this is what winds me up. As a western woman your daughter was not allowed to walk about town without covering herself up and couldn't wear her crucifix?? What a very tolerant attitude they have. And here we are bending over backwards to ensure we don't offend anyone in the UK. On the one hand is makes me proud to live in such a tolerant country but it also makes me think why the hell do we bother?? It doesn't seem to work both ways..


Apparently they also have men only cafes and women only cafes and then they have family cafes where both can go with the kids. Sounds a bit like the whites only cafes and shops in the deep south back in the fifties.



Marycat said:


> Not allowed a ***??!! Seriously??! Jesus wept.. That really is the limit..


She used to bring me duty frees back then when I smoked which she bought at Heathrow or Gatwick and had to smuggle them out of Saudi because she wasn't allowed them.

But she didn't work for a commercial airline, she worked for the Saudi royal family, so it was all a bit sensitive.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Still think the veil is ok and we should keep our noses out? Do you still believe that all Muslims have respect for women? Read the below and see what we are allowing in the UK. Shocking. Poor Muslim girls..

Muslim school banned pupils from singing and reading fairy tales as hardliners took control and ousted headmaster and deputy | Mail Online


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Yes. I will continue to support a woman's right to choose. When I went to church the women covered their heads (if members) and the men didn't. I don't think that in anyway implies oppression, which is what some seem to suggest is happening to muslim women. Some Christian schools won't allow children to read fairy stories if they contain witches in them.


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## Marycat (Jul 29, 2013)

Jobeth said:


> Yes. I will continue to support a woman's right to choose. When I went to church the women covered their heads (if members) and the men didn't. I don't think that in anyway implies oppression, which is what some seem to suggest is happening to muslim women. Some Christian schools won't allow children to read fairy stories if they contain witches in them.


 They don't make the girls sit at the back and give the boys their dinner first though do they?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Marycat said:


> Not allowed a ***??!! Seriously??! Jesus wept.. That really is the limit..


Many women aren't allowed to leave the house unless accompanied by a male relative - even if he's only six years old - he's in charge.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

It's a free school. It is what happens when you remove the checks and balances that the state provides, and let anyone who might have some money run your schools.


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## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

lostbear said:


> Many women aren't allowed to leave the house unless accompanied by a male relative - even if he's only six years old - he's in charge.


Pfffttttttt to that!!!!! Makes me


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Marycat said:


> Still think the veil is ok and we should keep our noses out? Do you still believe that all Muslims have respect for women? Read the below and see what we are allowing in the UK. Shocking. Poor Muslim girls..
> 
> Muslim school banned pupils from singing and reading fairy tales as hardliners took control and ousted headmaster and deputy | Mail Online


They should sue fr constructive dismissal - that moslem teacher who went to interview without a veil, but then insisted on wearing one after she was appointed, sued and got 70 grand!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> Really? *Whose got red rep for what*? I'm expecting some momentarily for apparently being a useless all round nasty person on my other thread. Oh woe is me!  I have just made rosehip syrup if anyone has some decent vanilla ice cream....? Me and the OH took half of the hips from a nearby bush, the huge mushy ones.


Who's red-repping? I'll have some of that rose hip syrup, thank you, O Evil One. Now I have to find your other thread and check that your Nastiness level is high enough for me to keep admiring your posts. LOL


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

lostbear said:


> Who's red-repping? I'll have some of that rose hip syrup, thank you, O Evil One. Now I have to find your other thread and check that your Nastiness level is high enough for me to keep admiring your posts. LOL


forget that! it was me started it prior to getting the full story!
Lets just say it was in retaliation!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lostbear said:


> Who's red-repping? I'll have some of that rose hip syrup, thank you, O Evil One. Now I have to find your other thread and check that your Nastiness level is high enough for me to keep admiring your posts. LOL


(Quoting myself - There's arrogance for you!)

Just wanted to let you know that, Yes, you are up to my exacting standards, and I'm prepared to continue sitting at your feet. (I catch a lot of rose hips that way)


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

lostbear said:


> Who's red-repping? I'll have some of that rose hip syrup, thank you, O Evil One. Now I have to find your other thread and check that your Nastiness level is high enough for me to keep admiring your posts. LOL


Yeah, I'm clearly a massive b!tch who doesn't give a damn about children 

I'm just watching a Touch of Cloth (John Hannah bought me a drink when I was younger, he was very dashing ) then I'm decanting into rather cute flip top bottles. It smells fab!


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

Wow I went to bed for a few hours and there's loads more pages lol. I don't even know what's going on anymore

religion threads always do that don't they lol.

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

DT said:


> forget that! it was me started it prior to getting the full story!
> Lets just say it was in retaliation!


Okey-dokey! (Like your by-line, BTW)


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Cheryl89 said:


> I just feel it doesn't show any kind of respect and when you walk past them you can't even see if they are smiling or anything...just eyes - Just find it really, really uncomfortable. I know some people don't mind (and if I was to see them out I wouldn't say OMG get that off) but just makes me feel a bit weird that they can see me and I can't see them at all.
> 
> Religious stuff defo doesn't bother me hun... I don't care about any of that stuff, would just be nice to see faces! As you can with every other religion.


While I sympathise with the sentiment this isn't a reason to ban the veil.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> Wow I went to bed for a few hours and there's loads more pages lol. I don't even know what's going on anymore
> 
> religion threads always do that don't they lol.
> 
> _Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


Absolutely - you blink and a minor conflagration had broken out, prisoners have been taken and exchanged, peace has been restored, and we are all re-armed and ready to start again - just like real countries. :thumbup:


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Zaros said:


> It's a terrible thing to be persecuted for what you choose to believe in.
> 
> It's also a terrible realisation knowing someone doesn't like you enough that they'd make up stories about you just to give foundation to their cause.
> 
> ...


 What's sad is when nobody even notices a race is targeted, currently the Celtic race find their skin colour, hair colour have been ridiculed without comment for at least 40 years. They are spoken of with derision. Their jobs and way of life are disappearing to make way for other cultures entering theirs.

The British way of life is still there but its changing and evolving with new cultures entering the country. however there has to be a saturation point. When does that evolving culture become a different one? Are we inadvertently tearing down the lives of the Scots, Welsh, English and Irish people who have sustained our country and culture.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

lostbear said:


> Absolutely - you blink and a minor conflagration had broken out, prisoners have been taken and exchanged, peace has been restored, and we are all re-armed and ready to start again - just like real countries. :thumbup:


And very soon I shall be saying!!

*DING DONG 
ROUND 8​*


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Thread now closed can I just remind members to have a peek at the rules again one of which is 

Account Suspension
Under normal situations, where a User is thought to have broken any rules on these pages, a warning will be issued to the offender. A Second warning for the same offence will not be issued - a possible account suspension will be enforced, at the discretion of the Admin team.

Any offence, serious enough to be viewed as Gross misconduct, e.g., racism, slander, harassment, attempted hacking etc. will result in an instant IP ban with no prior warnings given.


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