# SHEEP CHASING problem solved without E-collar



## PFMarconi (Oct 1, 2010)

Having read the sticky note on e-collars, I thought Id post my recent experiences.

Two months ago I adopted a lovely 4yr old Springer x Lab, from a rescue home. However, I soon realised that Matt was a dog who liked to run after sheep  though thankfully didnt harm them. As soon as he saw them he became fixated and completely deaf to my voice.
The advice of putting him in a farmers pen with a ram to cure the problem proved ineffective. 

But on the recommendation of a friend, I contacted a behaviourist in Cumbria who came up trumps. 

With her own sheep to work with, Janet Ardley used a technique she called noise aversion to distract Matt the moment he looked at a sheep and it was a tremendous relief to see how his behaviour changed. Her "stones in a bottle" approach may sound odd but the fact is it worked.

I now have a very different dog, proving that there are people who dont need to use electric collars to stop dogs chasing.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm happy it worked for you but I can guarantee you that a rattle bottle is not going to stop some dogs chasing sheep. Especially those who aren't just after the fun of the chase. An ecollar won't stop some dogs. A leash and avoidance worked well enough for me and my sheep worrying dog.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

That is lovely, however fortunately for you (and the dog and the sheep) your dog was not a "born killer", there are different degrees of sheep worrying and some can never be cured (apart from making sure they never encounter sheep).

This site may be helpful to others.

Angela Stockdale, Dog Aggression Specialist - Living with Livestock: dogs with stock problems


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Am really glad this worked for you (& may also be of help to others) but Roxy would not even register a noise once she was fixated with a running animal or one she wanted to chase.

I wish I could find something that worked as effectively as you have found but unfortunately (in my case) I think it will be alot of hard work before we can 'cure' this


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I too am glad it worked for you; I think that it would take an awful lot more for me to trust my dog around livestock. I just keep him on a short lead at all times where livestock is to avoid any worries.

He has never worried sheep and I have socialised him around them. He is fine in a field full of grazing sheep BUT as soon as they move with any speed or are channelled he becomes very, very excitable. SB - good link - difficult to determine which Kilo would be as I haven't given him the opportunity to chase...but I suspect a 'bay dog' given his breed's history and other behaviours he has shown.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Rupert was a killer, whether learnt or born I don't know. He was turned in to the shelter for worrying sheep and while he never got the chance to go after them with me I have no doubt whatsoever he would have gone in for the kill.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Despite results, I would not trust a positive punishment based method of training (i.e. the rattle bottle) to have 'fixed' the behaviour entirely, it could just be temporary suppression.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

PFMarconi said:


> Having read the sticky note on e-collars, I thought Id post my recent experiences.
> 
> Two months ago I adopted a lovely 4yr old Springer x Lab, from a rescue home. However, I soon realised that Matt was a dog who liked to run after sheep  though thankfully didnt harm them. As soon as he saw them he became fixated and completely deaf to my voice.
> The advice of putting him in a farmers pen with a ram to cure the problem proved ineffective.
> ...


I am glad this worked for you, but would be ineffective with many dogs. What I really wanted to ask was what idiot prescribed sticking him in a pen with a ram? A ram could have killed your dog.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I am glad this worked for you, but would be ineffective with many dogs. What I really wanted to ask was what idiot prescribed sticking him in a pen with a ram? A ram could have killed your dog.


Lots of them seem to recommend that for some reason  There's worse out there though, one piece of advice I saw recommended having your dog tied up in a narrow enclosure and stampeding a herd of sheep* over* them!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Lots of them seem to recommend that for some reason  There's worse out there though, one piece of advice I saw recommended having your dog tied up in a narrow enclosure and stampeding a herd of sheep* over* them!


Who dreams up this crap? I am horrified, I really am.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I would never trust any dog around livestock apart from farm dogs and working sheepdogs. I would always put a dog on a short lead around livestock and avoid livestock fields where possible. E-collars should NEVER be used.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

> Who dreams up this crap? I am horrified, I really am.


I really don't know. I figured that method was more likely to kill the dog than cure it of sheep chasing!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> I really don't know. I figured that method was more likely to kill the dog than cure it of sheep chasing!


Well, yes, that would definitely cure it of chasing sheep.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I would never trust any dog around livestock apart from farm dogs and working sheepdogs. I would always put a dog on a short lead around livestock and avoid livestock fields where possible. E-collars should NEVER be used.


Loads of dogs are trustworthy around other animals including livestock, but I agree with you that a lot aren't, know your dog and treat it accordingly.


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

That is lucky for you. I don't see that even bothering Lucy one bit. My last resorts at the moment are: keeping her on a lead for life (including on her own land, as my local farmer refuses to fix his fences and his sheep wander freely), rehoming her, using an electric collar, or putting her in a pen with a ewe and lamb.

The last one has been most recommended, but at the moment, we are trying other methods before that.


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Who dreams up this crap? I am horrified, I really am.


There's no denying it works though. Sounds horrific, and is really, but its better than being shot by a farmer...at least...I think it is.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

happysaz133 said:


> That is lucky for you. I don't see that even bothering Lucy one bit. My last resorts at the moment are: keeping her on a lead for life (including on her own land, as my local farmer refuses to fix his fences and his sheep wander freely), rehoming her, using an electric collar, or putting her in a pen with a ewe and lamb.
> 
> The last one has been most recommended, but at the moment, we are trying other methods before that.


1 It is the farmers responsibility to fix his fences, if his sheep trespass then legally he can do nothing about what happens to them whether they get run over, are worried by dogs etc. In fact he may be liable in a civil suit.

2 Putting a dog in a pen with a ewe and lamb will have absolutely NO effect other than maybe INCREASING the desire to rid the world of sheep. Dogs do not generalise, their behviour is often contextual unless we deliberately try to combat this; putting a dog in a pen with a sheep is not what happens in "real life" when they encounter them. It is generally the MOVEMENT of the animals that triggers the chase.

3 An electric collar needs to be used with skill, do you have that skill? It also takes time, it is not just a question of sticking on a collar and turning up the volts!  And, in addition, if you read my link; for SOME dogs NOTHING will interrupt their behaviour.

4 Lead or rehoming her is the most reliable solution which is also the kindest.

If the only reason that sheep are a problem is because the farmer is not looking after them properly I would have a word with him and if that does not work, speak to CAB and the police.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I am glad this worked for you, but would be ineffective with many dogs. What I really wanted to ask was what idiot prescribed sticking him in a pen with a ram? A ram could have killed your dog.


It is a method that has been used for ever. I am sure it must work in a lot of cases or it would not be used. It might not appeal to the average pet owner, but the average farmer would rather try it than have to shoot the dog.

The stones rattling thing was a very popular way of training for a while. You have to do some conditioning first though and then it does work for some things. I cant see how on earth it would stop a dog from chasing sheep, but it could stop it showing interest in the sheep when it is on the lead.

I taught my trial bred collie to avert her eyes through a field of sheep - and when we moved to a farm and I wanted her to work it was a heck of a job to get her to go near the sheep


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Despite results, I would not trust a positive punishment based method of training (i.e. the rattle bottle) to have 'fixed' the behaviour entirely, it could just be temporary suppression.


This. The more I train, the more convinced I am that behaviors that gain a reward are stronger than behaviors that avoid a punisher.

Noise aversion is a valid way to stop behaviors, but with many, many dogs the desire to chase will eventually trump the desire to avoid the noise of the shake can. Especially if you end up having to use the shake can (or threaten to use it) more than once or twice. At that point you run in to all the usual problems with punishment. (I dont mean a horrible bad thing by punishment, just meaning something the dog tries to avoid.)

Dogs will quickly habituate and desensitize to punishment or with things like punitive collars, they will get whats called a punishment callous and it takes more of the punisher to have any effect. A shake can doesnt get louder than it already is, which leads people to try harsher methods like letting the dog get trampled or attacked by a ram (personally I dont care to incur vet bills in the name of training, but thats just me).

So if rewards are the way to go, how do you compete with the reward of chasing sheep that some dogs are SO driven to do? Enter the conditioned reinforcer. Ever see a high-drive, Malinois (herding breed) conditioned to the bite sleeve choose a sheep over a bite sleeve? Not likely. Why? Because the bite sleeve is a conditioned reinforcer that is stronger than the dogs inherent drive to chase and herd.

No, Im not suggesting you train your labX in SchH in order to stop the sheep chasing, but I am suggesting that creating a conditioned reinforcer and using it to compete with the desire to chase is a more effective long-term solution. A competent trainer can show you how to do this.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

ouesi said:


> This. The more I train, the more convinced I am that behaviors that gain a reward are stronger than behaviors that avoid a punisher.
> 
> Noise aversion is a valid way to stop behaviors, but with many, many dogs the desire to chase will eventually trump the desire to avoid the noise of the shake can. Especially if you end up having to use the shake can (or threaten to use it) more than once or twice. At that point you run in to all the usual problems with punishment. (I dont mean a horrible bad thing by punishment, just meaning something the dog tries to avoid.)
> 
> ...


Rep your way!

Couldn't agree more. Finding a conditioned reinforcer that is as reinforcing as the internal-desire to chase is the way to go. Jean Donaldson has some great methods in 'The Culture Clash' to combat chasing.


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> 1 It is the farmers responsibility to fix his fences, if his sheep trespass then legally he can do nothing about what happens to them whether they get run over, are worried by dogs etc. In fact he may be liable in a civil suit.
> 
> *This has been tried...nothing happened. Twice people have reported him, because twice, he has had sheep die from dogs chasing them.*
> 
> ...


The main problem is my land isn't enclosed, so the sheep can wander freely in. I can't make the farmer keep his sheep on his own land. And I also don't want my dog killing a sheep everyday. It's a no winner. Stuck between a rock and a hard place.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

happysaz133 said:


> The main problem is my land isn't enclosed, so the sheep can wander freely in. I can't make the farmer keep his sheep on his own land. And I also don't want my dog killing a sheep everyday. It's a no winner. Stuck between a rock and a hard place.


Wouldn't the easiest option be to enclose your own land? I can imagine it would not be cheap, but even if you only fenced part of it with something cheap to keep the dog in, it sounds like a better option that all the others.

Forgive me if I am being dim, but I am a Londoner and know sod all about farming.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

It wouldnt work on one of my dogs. 

Hes only seen them once and he went right after them and the horses, it was horrible and it made your heart jump. He can not be trusted and to be honest i wouldnt try anything like it again in a while. 

We have plenty of other great walks to go on (even if one has chickens we have to avoid aswell) so there is no need to do anything about it imo


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