# Let's discuss religion HERE instead



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

For the sake of WL's thread intention, I've created this thread for the side discussions.

Not REALLY interested in discussing religion...but for those intent on it, so be it.

For all those kind, caring, compassionate believers....try not getting too nasty as is your general demeanor when discussing your beliefs.

:thumbup:


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Yes I believe that there is something, but am as yet unsure as to what.  Whilst the stories of the bible have to a point been proven to have occured (no I'm not talking of Moses living to 150odd or whatever age) I struggle to believe the bible fully as I think Man has corrupted HIS word for their own greed.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

blumin eck i really can't be arsed to type anymore could u not copy and paste all that i have written in the other thread and post it in here,as i'm sure there will be some disscussions that i have already answered in the other thread that will be asked on this one.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Personally, I believe religion was a means of controlling people in old times. It hasn't progressed with the rest of society and seems to hold alot of people back. I'm in a hurry though so can't write too much :lol:. BTW I meant no offence to any religious people - just my personal opinion. x


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

I think religion has a lot to answer for,, it has caused a fair few wars and is the biggest cause of war.. and still the ebig man does not show himself to tell his children what they are doing is wrong..


BUT I do think the ten comandments are good rules to live by.

I thinking haveing seen the the so called pillars of creation and parts of the toher universe and galxay and solar systems from the hubble telescope we are insucnificant(SP)


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Last time I got involved in a discussion on religion on PF, it ran to 52 pages (and without any mods intervening). Shall we try to break that record? 

Liz


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

jehovah's witness don't go to church!

its something God states in the bible that we should not worship idols.it states in the bible that Exodus 20:4-5 "you shall not make yourself a carved image or any likness of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth,you hall not bow down to them,or serve them.

and also

Lev 26:1 "you must make no idols,you must not set up neither carved image nor standing stone,set up no sculptured stone in your land,to prostrate yourself in front of it."

1 John 5:21 "my little children be on your guard against idols"(false gods)

we go to a place called the Kingdom hall,there is nothing in the room to state its a place of worship,infact it looks like a conference room.there are no images or statues or symbols.

what we do in there is read parts of the bible and then discuss what we have just read and what its meaning is.

yeh they do thats cuz they are spreading the good news and its whats they have been told to do in the bible as it states they are Gods witness and he wants to save as many people as possible.
jesus did preachings when he was alive and went from land to land telling of the good news.

if u do not want them knocking on your door just open it tell them please don't come back here as your not interested and they should stop.


JW's do not give blood or allow blood transfusions due to the fact that blood in sacried.
now a days and this is not just JW's people are opting to have plasma expanders and these are nearly all availabe in hospitals.

JW's do allow blood transfusions -the safer kind.
they accept the kind that don't carry the risk of aids,hepatitis and malaria.
and people/children that have died from not recieving treatment is cuz the doctors don't know how to use these plasma machines.though nowadays if a JW goes into hospital with bloodloss there is another JW that is qualified to assist with the operation.or at least guide the doc's.

lott was saved from the city of gomorah by God and his wife wanted to return and was told not to turn around but unfortuatly her posseions seemed more to her and God turned her to salt.
God wanted to destroy the city beacuse it was full of bad things like sex crime murder and God wanted to save lott and his family

with the new treatments they have nowadays there is no need to let a child die.
maybe back in the old days

there all that is from the other thread so i don't have to rewrite it all out again.
__________________

__________________


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

piggybaker said:


> I think religion has a lot to answer for,, it has caused a fair few wars and is the biggest cause of war.. and still the ebig man does not show himself to tell his children what they are doing is wrong..


Why would He need to? We have His word in the Bible.

Liz


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

blade100 said:


> i'm afraid i do do not agree with u there.
> from what i have read in the bible it does not allow drugs,outside marriage sex,murder etc.





Bandy said:


> Ever heard of Lott?
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbup:





blade100 said:


> lott was saved from the city of gomorah by God and his wife wanted to return and was told not to turn around but unfortuatly her posseions seemed more to her and God turned her to salt.
> God wanted to destroy the city beacuse it was full of bad things like sex crime murder and God wanted to save lott and his family.





Bandy said:


> And how did Lott procure Jesus safe visit?
> And how did Lott's daughters get pregnant?


And, since we're going to discuss this now...care to explain away all the killings done in the name of GOD by his chosen people?
The systematic genocide of men, women and children of differing religions? Namely those evil Pagan people?

Where the eff is the TOLERANCE?


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Why discuss it esp on a p*** take thread!! Religion is personal and so for people who do care do not waste your breath on here.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

blade100 said:


> jehovah's witness don't go to church!


I think that's splitting hairs, to be honest. What most people mean by "go to church" is "attend a Christian worship service" (though others here can correct me). There are many groups other than the JWs who do not use statues, pictures, crosses etc in their buildings - many Evangelicals don't for a start.

Liz


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

blade100 said:


> jehovah's witness don't go to church!
> 
> its something God states in the bible that we should not worship idols.it states in the bible that Exodus 20:4-5 "you shall not make yourself a carved image or any likness of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth,you hall not bow down to them,or serve them.
> 
> ...


Thats what i dont get.... In the old testament a child would not be alloud a transfusion and would be left to die but in the new testament its alloud?? What has changed?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> Where the eff is the TOLERANCE?


You mean tolerance like your picture? :lol:

Seriously, religious tolerance is a VERY recent phenomenon in the history of mankind. Go back just three centuries, and you were expected to have the same religion as your king. If you didn't, you were regarded as a traitor, because you might take up arms in the name of your religion against your king. This was by far the majority view throughout history and persists in many parts of the world today (and I am not just thinking of Islamic countries, atheist states can be just as bad)

Liz


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

as you can see i am learning about JW's.

back in the 1st and 2nd world wars jeahovah's witnesses were killed for not going to fight for there country as it states in the bible that we should love thy neighbour and not to fight.live in peace and harmony.

u never see a JW smoking,drunk although they do have the odd glass of wine which jesus drank.they don't have sex before marriage,they don't swear, they don't cause fights,war,they stick to the commandmants God made.

they have to be one of the nicest people on earth.
not saying you lot arent of course!


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

I hate the way peeps judge all beliefs, its not something I feel comfortable about been mocked or stereotyped. Cant put all religions into the same pot and all the believers in the same category, not all are extremists.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Thats what i dont get.... In the old testament a child would not be alloud a transfusion and would be left to die but in the new testament its alloud?? What has changed?


They didn't have blood transfusion at all in Bible times, so I'm not sure what you are getting at here. The ban on eating blood was never actually rescinded, rather it was specifically continued by the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), along with being sexually moral. Whilst I do not think the ban was ever meant to apply to blood transfusions, I do have a lot of sympathy with the JWs on this point.

Liz


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

niki87 said:


> Why discuss it esp on a p*** take thread!! Religion is personal and so for people who do care do not waste your breath on here.


Good question.

Why post on a thread that obviously would upset you?

It's things people feel passionate about that are the hardest to discuss maturely.

I'd hope we'd have some genuine discussion in here. I mean, I'm sure everyone that opines in this thread is already aware we're not going to change the face of the Earth with *our* opinions...right?

:thumbup:


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

blade100 said:


> as you can see i am learning about JW's.
> 
> back in the 1st and 2nd world wars jeahovah's witnesses were killed for not going to fight for there country as it states in the bible that we should love thy neighbour and not to fight.live in peace and harmony.
> 
> ...


Muslims dont drink, smoke or swear, but there are so many that do it anyway.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

they have plasma expanders now safer than blood transfusions!

and yes niki i totally agree with you,think some people want to have a heated disscussion,and people have a right to believe in what they want.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

i dont believe in god 

its personal choice and aslong as you arent shoving it in my face, i dont care at all.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Muslims dont drink, smoke or swear, but there are so many that do it anyway.


well then they are not following the bible are they.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> You mean tolerance like your picture? :lol:
> 
> Seriously, religious tolerance is a VERY recent phenomenon in the history of mankind. Go back just three centuries, and you were expected to have the same religion as your king. If you didn't, you were regarded as a traitor, because you might take up arms in the name of your religion against your king. This was by far the majority view throughout history and persists in many parts of the world today (and I am not just thinking of Islamic countries, atheist states can be just as bad)
> 
> Liz


Ahh, atheist creeps in..

For the record, I'm not an atheist. Agnostic, thank you.



Jesus was preaching tolerance in the Bible...turn the other cheek and all that...

so, the cannon of tolerance has been around since the *inception* of Christianity...

back when Isis was the Sun God.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> Ahh, atheist creeps in..
> 
> For the record, I'm not an atheist. Agnostic, thank you.


Fine, but I was referring to atheist states, not to you personally.



> Jesus was preaching tolerance in the Bible...turn the other cheek and all that...


He wasn't preaching religious tolerance, he was teaching personal non-violence. And yes, for something like 1300 years the church was corrupt and did not encourage people to read the Bible (even those few who could read) so it is not surprising that violence was done in the name of religion. It is easy to explain by reference to history, that does not of course make it right, it just explains why it happened, that's all.

Liz


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

I have a great aunt who is a jw an she is a nutty old bat 

I'm not religious at all, personally think it's the biggest con out there, but if folks seek and get comfort from believing then I have nothing against that or their beliefs, I respect their opinions and decisions, I have never felt an affinity to any religion.

My fav city is Rome believe it or not and I can appreciate the architecture, history and meaning behind the Vatican for example, I do admire people who follow a religion tbh, but it has never stirred me or made me passionate, just confuses me if i'm honest


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

blade100 said:


> as you can see i am learning about JW's.
> 
> back in the 1st and 2nd world wars jeahovah's witnesses were killed for not going to fight for there country as it states in the bible that we should love thy neighbour and not to fight.live in peace and harmony.
> 
> ...


They dont do all that because they havnt got time for door knocking.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Personally, I believe religion was a means of controlling people in old times. It hasn't progressed with the rest of society and seems to hold alot of people back. I'm in a hurry though so can't write too much :lol:. BTW I meant no offence to any religious people - just my personal opinion. x


There has always always been some form of religion, since the human mind became conscious. Whether it be 
Pagen
Catholic
Muslim
Jew
Jehova
etc

Man has waged war on man with religion as the cover, what it was always about and always will be about is the neighbour having something the other wants. 

As I say religion has always been with us, if you think of the ancient greeks, they worshiped Zeus along with his underlings to whom you prayed for certain favours, you didnt always pray directly to zeus. Is that really so different from God and his angels. The Saints.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

the killing were done because they had created there own religion and were worshipping there own false gods something that jehovah stated not to do in the bible.that there is only one true God,the one we know.

the church has twisted so much about the bible its got outa hand,it states that we go to heaven when we die which is a lie.
they state there is a hell when its hell on earth and satan is here on earth with his demons creating havoc causing wars.

the demons get into mediums,atc and tell people what they want to hear about seeing dead ones in the afterlife making u think this is all real,pushing u away from the truth.

jesus died for a reason that reason being we will all have everlating life on earth and that the dead ones will be reserected and taught about God.
if they don't what to know they will be done away with forever.

this of course will happen once satan has been ridded of the earth.

i don't care what people think as this is what a truley believe in.
after all it is a disscussion of religions.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Im a strong believer in evolution, I would like to think there is something after this life but im not one to have a strong belief in anything that cant be proven. 
I personally wouldnt take any religious book as gospel as its mainly been written on other peoples beliefs. 
Ill decide what i believe then i kick the bucket:lol:


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Well, im not religious. I dont believe in god. I dont believe in after life ect. 

I dont see how there could be a god and such terrible things happen. 

I think its good for people to have something to believe in regardless of what it is wether its a religion or just in themselves.


I just believe in doing the best you can, and what will be will be.


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## mandxx (Oct 9, 2010)

Living in a country that has done nothing but blooming fight over religion it saddens me that ppl cant just except everyone for whomever they are as long as they are not hurting anyone.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

blade100 said:


> t
> the church has twisted so much about the bible its got outa hand,it states that we go to heaven when we die which is a lie.
> they state there is a hell when its hell on earth and satan is here on earth with his demons creating havoc causing wars.


Are you sure you want to get into this here? Incidentally, are you sure the JWs teach the idea of hell being on earth? That is one I haven't heard from them.



> the demons get into mediums,atc and tell people what they want to hear about seeing dead ones in the afterlife making u think this is all real,pushing u away from the truth.


I agree with you here.



> jesus died for a reason that reason being we will all have everlating life on earth


You mean that JWs will have everlasting life on earth (apart from the anointed class), don't you?

Liz


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

anyway thats me done,i'm going to watch tv now with my horlicks and my pouched rat also gotta get hammies out and then off to bed.

i'm not writing anymore now about this as i've stated how i feel about my religion.

good nights folks been nice talking to you.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> Fine, but I was referring to atheist states, not to you personally.


Just making sure that was clear before this discussion went the way of others.



> He wasn't preaching religious tolerance, he was teaching personal non-violence.
> Liz


That is semantics.

:thumbup:


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

lizward said:


> Are you sure you want to get into this here? Incidentally, are you sure the JWs teach the idea of hell being on earth? That is one I haven't heard from them.
> 
> I agree with you here.
> 
> ...


not just JW's people that haven't had the oppertunity to talk about it and get to learn,people that know bout it but are not sure,its anyone that God can read there heart conditions and if there not murderers or demon worshippers then they get to have everlasting life too.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> I dont see how there could be a god and such terrible things happen.


This is a very common objection, perhaps the commonest, why doesn't God step in and stop whatever it is? Well, take that to its logical conclusion. Would you really want God to stop everyone sinning, for example? That would solve an awful lot of problems, wouldn't it? But perhaps you wouldn't like it, when you look at his view of what is sin.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

blade100 said:


> not just JW's people that haven't had the oppertunity to talk about it and get to learn,people that know bout it but are not sure,its anyone that God can read there heart conditions and if there not murderers or demon worshippers then they get to have everlasting life too.


Don't you mean they get resurrected and then taught and have to choose? They're not guaranteed everlasting life just because they are resurrected, are they?

Liz


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

lizward said:


> This is a very common objection, perhaps the commonest, why doesn't God step in and stop whatever it is? Well, take that to its logical conclusion. Would you really want God to stop everyone sinning, for example? That would solve an awful lot of problems, wouldn't it? But perhaps you wouldn't like it, when you look at his view of what is sin.
> 
> Liz


I do take it into logical conclusion, that being that there obviously is no god.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

lizward said:


> Don't you mean they get resurrected and then taught and have to choose? They're not guaranteed everlasting life just because they are resurrected, are they?
> 
> Liz


yeh the ones that have died and bought back yes and also for the living too.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> That is semantics.


Not at all. Jesus said that all those who do not believe in Him are already condemned (John 3.18). That isn't really very tolerant.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

blade100 said:


> yeh the ones that have died and bought back yes and also for the living too.


Sorry, yes to what?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> I do take it into logical conclusion, that being that there obviously is no god.


So because He doesn't do what you think he should, he doesn't exist. I see.

Liz


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> Not at all. Jesus said that all those who do not believe in Him are already condemned (John 3.18). That isn't really very tolerant.
> 
> Liz


True, there was a 'jesus' there are records of him aparently..... so they say.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

lizward said:


> So because He doesn't do what you think he should, he doesn't exist. I see.
> 
> Liz


No if he did exist he wouldnt let people suffer. I want nothing from him.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> True, there was a 'jesus' there are records of him aparently..... so they say.


Yes, there are indeed records outside of the New Testament. The New Testament of course is the best primary source if you want to learn about Jesus.

Liz


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

lizward said:


> This is a very common objection, perhaps the commonest, why doesn't God step in and stop whatever it is? Well, take that to its logical conclusion. Would you really want God to stop everyone sinning, for example? That would solve an awful lot of problems, wouldn't it? But perhaps you wouldn't like it, when you look at his view of what is sin.
> 
> Liz


That doesn't really sit for me, there is a difference between preventing all sins and people having no faith because they have watched loved ones suffer from something like cancer.

My MIL is currently suffering from terminal cancer, she is without question one of lifes "good uns", i don't get why if there is a Higher Order she gets the crappy end of the stick


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

How to determine what religion you should be.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> No if he did exist he wouldnt let people suffer. I want nothing from him.


He will not force you to have anything from him, but declaring that he does not exist because you think he isn't doing his job properly is a bit odd!

Liz


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

i will say it again the reason bad things are happening in the world today and more so now than ever is because SATAN is the ruler of this world at the minute and he has limited time before God does away with him.

the reason God hasn't intervened is because he wanted us to have the choice of ruling ourselves without him,thanks to adam and eve for the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge.
becasue they wnated the choice of ruling themsleves and guess what.what a shitty job we have done so far!
not even the human goverments can put an end to war!

just rememeber this,when u here on the news that ALL goverments are banning all religion u will know the time has come when God will step in and take back the world under his control!!

goodnight.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

lizward said:


> This is a very common objection, perhaps the commonest, why doesn't God step in and stop whatever it is? Liz


I look at it like this. God is OUR father, and is just like any other parent.


You give birth

You nurture

As the child gets older i.e. teenage years you allow them to grow and find their own way in the world

The child decides it can flex its wings without your help...thank you very much.  teenagers eh.

The parent especially with the first child/children cannot let go and insists on guilding the child their way, we all know that doesnt work. 

Parent, has to promise to stop interfering and allow the child to develop the way the child sees best.

After much strolling around the world, and seeing sights both wonderous and painful the child comes back to its parent.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes, there are indeed records outside of the New Testament. The New Testament of course is the best primary source if you want to learn about Jesus.
> 
> Liz


Im very much at that stage where i would like to believe there is something after death, but with all the pain and suffereing in the world is there really a god? One day i will know i suppose. One day we will all know if there is an afterlife and a 'god' or do we all just live and die?

No one can be sure of anything.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> So because He doesn't do what you think he should, he doesn't exist. I see.
> 
> Liz


Well, given the fact ya have the same chances of having a wish (prayer) granted by praying to god as a you do praying to a rock...

does that prove to you that he does?

And, just who are we to think our wishes should play into his grand scheme anyway?

How arrogant is that?


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

blade100 said:


> i will say it again the reason bad things are happening in the world today and more so now than ever is because SATAN is the ruler of this world at the minute and he has limited time before God does away with him.
> 
> the reason God hasn't intervened is because he wanted us to have the choice of ruling ourselves without him,thanks to adam and eve for the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge.
> becasue they wnated the choice of ruling themsleves and guess what.what a shitty job we have done so far!
> ...


 :confused1:  So god will tell the government to ban all religion?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> That doesn't really sit for me, there is a difference between preventing all sins and people having no faith because they have watched loved ones suffer from something like cancer.
> 
> My MIL is currently suffering from terminal cancer, she is without question one of lifes "good uns", i don't get why if there is a Higher Order she gets the crappy end of the stick


All of us have to die, and death is not the end. I do understand that it is very difficult to cope with this sort of thing though, I have never yet lost anyone closer than my grandparents and cats. I don't see that being an atheist makes this sort of thing any easier though?

Liz


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

lizward said:


> He will not force you to have anything from him, but declaring that he does not exist because you think he isn't doing his job properly is a bit odd!
> 
> Liz


I dont think its odd, its a view a lot of people share im afraid.

I believe life is what YOU make it not whats writen in the bible. If someone as whole and fair as god did exist and was all powerful then things that go on today wouldnt happen. Thats just my opinion tho. Everyone is entitled to there own. Whatever gets you through IMO. Not odd just ME


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Argh, can someone help me with remembering a quote

Something along the lines of

When man stops believing in God/Religion, he will believe in anything. And nothing will be sacred. 

Or something like that.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> Well, given the fact ya have the same chances of having a wish (prayer) granted by praying to god as a you do praying to a rock...


You have statistics to prove that, have you?

Liz


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

harley bear said:


> :confused1:  So god will tell the government to ban all religion?


no the goverment now on earth will ban it and then God will step in and take control.
as that would be like kicking God in the face taking away his history and knowledge in him.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> You have statistics to prove that, have you?
> 
> Liz


Oh? Are you saying you have a special pipe line to god and ALL your wishes come true?

Is that it?


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> My MIL is currently suffering from terminal cancer, she is without question one of lifes "good uns", i don't get why if there is a Higher Order she gets the crappy end of the stick


This is the exact reason I believe what I do.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

blade100 said:


> no the goverment now on earth will ban it and then God will step in and take control.
> as that would be like kicking God in the face taking away his history and knowledge in him.


Bot how can anyone prove that satan is ruling the earth? 
What if its our actions that result in consequenses?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Im very much at that stage where i would like to believe there is something after death, but with all the pain and suffereing in the world is there really a god? One day i will know i suppose. One day we will all know if there is an afterlife and a 'god' or do we all just live and die?
> 
> No one can be sure of anything.


If you are really serious about this then you need to do three things: 1. Ask God to show you Himself 2. Read the Bible (It's easiest to start with the Gospels) and 3. Get yourself along regularly to a church that believes the Bible and teaches it. Understand, though, that being a Christian, even in this country, is a costly business. It's life changing.

Liz


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Understanding the bible










:lol::lol:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> Oh? Are you saying you have a special pipe line to god and ALL your wishes come true?
> 
> Is that it?


No, I am saying that God answers prayer.

By the way, your diagram, though amusing, shows little understanding of how we got the Bible.

Liz


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

harley bear said:


> What if its our actions that result in consequenses?


I dont believe our action result in our conseqences. Thats just madness to me.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> If you are really serious about this then you need to do three things: 1. Ask God to show you Himself 2. Read the Bible (It's easiest to start with the Gospels) and 3. Get yourself along regularly to a church that believes the Bible and teaches it. Understand, though, that being a Christian, even in this country, is a costly business. It's life changing.
> 
> Liz


How is being a christian costly?


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> No, I am saying that God answers prayer.
> 
> By the way, your diagram, though amusing, shows little understanding of how we got the Bible.
> 
> Liz


Ahh, but not ALL. Correct?

So, given that ya wish for things, an only some come true, how is that different than praying to a rock again?



Try this...dedicate half your wishes to end wars and famine....see how many of the TRULY selfless wishes come true.


----------



## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

lizward said:


> All of us have to die, and death is not the end. I do understand that it is very difficult to cope with this sort of thing though, I have never yet lost anyone closer than my grandparents and cats. I don't see that being an atheist makes this sort of thing any easier though?
> 
> Liz


I never said it did. Believe me i have no issue with whatever path people chose and i respect peoples choices, my own mother is deeply religious. I just don't believe in God but that doesn't mean i don't have my own belief system (see Death thread )

I am yet to read anything that answers the question why would a GOD that is all about the love and peace allow good people (and honestly she is one of the best and has led what you would consider to be a good "cristian" life) to be blighted by such an evil end.

We are not talking about natural death here, yes we all have to die at some point and you could argue that a person hit by a bus was required for a higher purpose etc etc but the pain and suffering involved in dying from something like Cancer is about as crappy as it gets in terms of a death so any GOD that would allow good people to suffer from that doesn't deserve my devotion i am afraid.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> All of us have to die, and death is not the end.
> 
> Liz


You have proof of this?

Something other than circular logic for your convictions.


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I never said it did. Believe me i have no issue with whatever path people chose and i respect peoples choices, my own mother is deeply religious. I just don't believe in God but that doesn't mean i don't have my own belief system (see Death thread )
> 
> I am yet to read anything that answers the question why would a GOD that is all about the love and peace allow good people (and honestly she is one of the best and has led what you would consider to be a good "cristian" life) to be blighted by such an evil end.
> 
> We are not talking about natural death here, yes we all have to die at some point and you could argue that a person hit by a bus was required for a higher purpose etc etc but the pain and suffering involved in dying from something like Cancer is about as crappy as it gets in terms of a death so any GOD that would allow good people to suffer from that doesn't deserve my devotion i am afraid.


IMO all you say hits the nail on the head for me. Also on the Death thread.

I have nursed people that have died horrible painful deaths. They have been great people, lived fantastic lives, been good to family and friend and then they died like that. Several of them have been religious people and have question there own religion at the end.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I never said it did. Believe me i have no issue with whatever path people chose and i respect peoples choices, my own mother is deeply religious. I just don't believe in God but that doesn't mean i don't have my own belief system (see Death thread )
> 
> I am yet to read anything that answers the question why would a GOD that is all about the love and peace allow good people (and honestly she is one of the best and has led what you would consider to be a good "cristian" life) to be blighted by such an evil end.
> 
> We are not talking about natural death here, yes we all have to die at some point and you could argue that a person hit by a bus was required for a higher purpose etc etc but the pain and suffering involved in dying from something like Cancer is about as crappy as it gets in terms of a death so any GOD that would allow good people to suffer from that doesn't deserve my devotion i am afraid.


I have to admit that this is when I "fell out" with HIM. My dad died of brain tumours, cancer in the brain if you like. Why he and us should have suffered as we did, when all my father ever did was work damned hard to provide for his family, defend his country (army) and just as we'd all left home and life should have been getting good for my parents the love of my mams life was ripped from her arms.  My mam lost her religion there and then, she was and still is so angry about it. I'm slowly coming back into the fold, but I doubt it will ever be as strong as it once was.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Ive never been religious as in church every sunday ect, but i did believe "something" got married in church and my children was christened, i suppose you could say i was "loosly" religious (if theres such a thing) But then things happen in life that makes you wonder, wonder that if there a god and if so is as good as a god is made out to be or we are led to believe, why do such horrible things happen, yes we all have to die at sometime, but why do young people die, we went through watching my sister in law die (my brothers wife) a slow horrible death, we watched my brother nurse her, grieve for her and try and bring up their 3 young children, 7yrs,11yrs and a baby of 17months who had lost their mum and a baby that was to never know her mum. That was 13 yrs ago and the impact from that still goes on today, this believe me does make you question any faith we may have had.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

bird said:


> I have to admit that this is when I "fell out" with HIM. My dad died of brain tumours, cancer in the brain if you like. Why he and us should have suffered as we did, when all my father ever did was work damned hard to provide for his family, defend his country (army) and just as we'd all left home and life should have been getting good for my parents the love of my mams life was ripped from her arms.  My mam lost her religion there and then, she was and still is so angry about it. I'm slowly coming back into the fold, but I doubt it will ever be as strong as it once was.


It is very hard to make sense of and as i said i am yet to hear a plausible explanation. Sorry about your Dad, its an evil thing  My MIL is early 60s and we have been blessed with an extra year as we thought she wouldn't make the christmas before the one we have just had but they managed to zap the brain tumours and the bone cancer is rumbling on. Counting our blessings and live for the day


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

bird said:


> I have to admit that this is when I "fell out" with HIM. My dad died of brain tumours, cancer in the brain if you like. Why he and us should have suffered as we did, when all my father ever did was work damned hard to provide for his family, defend his country (army) and just as we'd all left home and life should have been getting good for my parents the love of my mams life was ripped from her arms.  My mam lost her religion there and then, she was and still is so angry about it. I'm slowly coming back into the fold, but I doubt it will ever be as strong as it once was.


Not the same exact story for me, but similar.

Then I started questioning what I was reading instead of taking it at face value. The more I read, the more outright contradictions I found. Then as my eyes opened, and I started looking around, I noticed more and more about ORGANIZED religion that makes me literally ill.

I do believe there is a force in our lives. I just don't believe in the one called god...not as he's presented anyway.

What loving parent, for instance, would have a chosen child (people) from the whole lot of children anyway? That is, on it's face, just absurd.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Ive never been religious as in church every sunday ect, but i did believe "something" got married in church and my children was christened, i suppose you could say i was "loosly" religious (if theres such a thing) But then things happen in life that makes you wonder, wonder that if there a god and if so is as good as a god is made out to be or we are led to believe, why do such horrible things happen, yes we all have to die at sometime, but why do young people die, we went through watching my sister in law die (my brothers wife) a slow horrible death, we watched my brother nurse her, grieve for her and try and bring up their 3 young children, 7yrs,11yrs and a baby of 17months who had lost their mum and a baby that was to never know her mum. That was 13 yrs ago and the impact from that still goes on today, this believe me does make you question any faith we may have had.


I really don't believe you can say you truly hold a faith unless you have had it tested like that.


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

So Sorry I post this on the other Thread BEFORE I saw The Change over so I've Copied/pasted here Sorry again 

******************************

Quote:
Originally Posted by blade100 
there is God and then satan,satan was at the time watcher over adam and eve in the garden of eden.
God told them not to eat from the tree of good and bad but satan mislead them into questioning God saying if u ate from it you would positivley not die.
so they ate from it hence the reason we die as they sinned.

to answer your question regards heaven and only so many will go.
144,000 will go up to heaven to govern over the earth just like we have on earth with our own goverment that does a crappy job.the 144,000 will watch over the humans on earth of everlasting life and guide them.


they won't do this untill satan is rid from the earth as he got cast out of heaven in 1914 down to earth.
hence the reason why we have wars,crime,famine,earthquakes,murderers,etc.
satan is misleading the entire habited earth.
it even mentions children will become disprespectful to there parents all of this is mentioned in the last days.

as i say i'm only just learning about jehovahs witness's and what they are about.
did u know that jehovah is God's name but the church do not want u to know this is his name as they feel you shouldn't have a close relationship with him and that the church ended up taking his name out all but in some places but if u do have a bible at hand u will see its in king james version exodus 6:3,psalm 83:18,genesis 22:14
there areothers but thats just a few. 

**************************

I'm not being Argumentive here at all. ( Just my View ) But I Think the Adam/Eve Story, Jesus Turning wine into water and The Feeding 1 loaf and a fish to 100's of people hold as much Truth as Fairytales such as Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc.....How Do you KNOW it happened...Where is The prove? How Could you convince me that it IS True 


Your last paragragh Just proves How hypercritical it all is..PLEASE Don't think I'm having ago at you But these are the roots of my total Confusion 



Also Christians ''pinched'' All pagan Beliefs 'Christams' was A Yule festival .....For Yonks before ''Christmas'' came to be.

Jesus was'nt even Born in December it was January ....AND The Church don't believe in something as Real as Ghosts/Spirits BUT They'll have us believe that Jesus ''Came Back from The Cross'' 

Can you understand my confusion?
__________________


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I do believe in God but am not a devout christian - 

I can hear what some people are saying with regards to why if there is a God does he let people die of cancer etc but imo believing in God isnt about automatically getting all the answers to your prayers I dont think God works like that - in a film where someone was explaining about god they said " If you pray to god for patience he will not automatically give you patience but give you the OPPORTUNITY TO BE PATIENT - I kind of like that philosophy


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Bandy said:


> You have proof of this?
> 
> Something other than circular logic for your convictions.


Very True.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I really don't believe you can say you truly hold a faith unless you have had it tested like that.


No its very hard isnt it, my brother who said he would never love again did meet alovely girl who adored the children and the children adored her ella the youngest one came to me one day and said "ive got a mummy" we were thrilled this was something a child should know from birth but she didnt, they had a little boy she didnt have children and as my brother said she was just sooo wonderful with his she deserved to have one of her own, the baby was 10 months old when she died, no one deserved such bad times, bad luck my brother and his children have had. And they say lightening doesnt strike twice.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> So Sorry I post this on the other Thread BEFORE I saw The Change over so I've Copied/pasted here Sorry again
> 
> ******************************
> 
> ...


Try and find stuff by The Verable Bede. He goes on about the conflict of incorporating pagan festival days into the christian calender. Most festivals are based on pagan beliefs, this is why easter is movable. The first full moon of spring or something similar.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

While id love to be sure there was another life/existance after death no one can really be sure. I would not and could not live by a book telling me what right and wrong.
When it boils down to it man kind are just another specis in the fight for survival, were born, we reproduce to try and better our species and we die. Its just the same as every other animal on the earth. It just happens thay dont have the intelect to question existance.


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## mandxx (Oct 9, 2010)

I have seen children blown to pieces in the name of religion! I don't think any parent would allow that free will or not!


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Bandy said:


> I do believe there is a force in our lives. I just don't believe in the one called god...not as he's presented anyway.
> 
> .


This is along the lines of my beliefs. I doubt I could ever go back to church, choir wouldnt have me now, voice went when I discovered booze and ****. :lol: But more seriously, its the organisation, the corruption of the word if you like that I dislike.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> No its very hard isnt it, my brother who said he would never love again did meet alovely girl who adored the children and the children adored her ella the youngest one came to me one day and said "ive got a mummy" we were thrilled this was something a child should know from birth but she didnt, they had a little boy she didnt have children and as my brother said she was just sooo wonderful with his she deserved to have one of her own, the baby was 10 months old when she died, no one deserved such bad times, bad luck my brother and his children have had. And they say lightening doesnt strike twice.


Tragic


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> I dont believe our action result in our conseqences. Thats just madness to me.


You've not really thought this through, have you? You get STDs, chances are very high indeed that you have had sex outside of marriage at some point. You get cirrhosis of the liver, chances are very high that you have abused alcohol. You go to prison, chances are very high that you have committed a crime. You get severe mobility problems due to being mordibly obese, chances are very high you have regularly eaten far too much, etc etc etc.

Liz


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> So Sorry I post this on the other Thread BEFORE I saw The Change over so I've Copied/pasted here Sorry again
> 
> ******************************
> 
> ...


I do agree with what you say snoopy, If satan was brought to earth in 1914 and thats when murders, wars began etc then why were there murders before 1914?


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

blade100 said:


> no the goverment now on earth will ban it and then God will step in and take control.
> as that would be like kicking God in the face taking away his history and knowledge in him.


You mentioned earlier that God will do away with Satan....What happens if Satan Doe's away with God?

So Godwill Step in and Take control of The Government...what as the next PM

It's A History that has no prove of it's existence...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> How is being a christian costly?


Becoming a Christian means that you vacate the throne of your life and Jesus becomes your King. And he makes demands. And He has to come first. So, for example, sex outside marriage is out. Failing to regularly attend church is out. There are more things that change too, of course, but those two are quite enough for most people to have difficulty with!

Liz


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

mandxx said:


> I have seen children blown to pieces in the name of religion! I don't think any parent would allow that free will or not!


One can only imagine the horrors that have been seen on the streets of Belfast, both in the past and more recent as things seem to be stirring up there again. 
ETA:Wonder sometimes if it would calm down if they really did ban marchs and parades from both sides.


----------



## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

lizward said:


> You've not really thought this through, have you? You get STDs, chances are very high indeed that you have had sex outside of marriage at some point. You get cirrhosis of the liver, chances are very high that you have abused alcohol. You go to prison, chances are very high that you have committed a crime. You get severe mobility problems due to being mordibly obese, chances are very high you have regularly eaten far too much, etc etc etc.
> 
> Liz


Surely though you dont believe this applies to all people that have serious illnesses or have experienced tradgedy in their lives ??

And my MIL ????? She has beaten breast cancer only to be riddled with bone cancer as a secondary. Never smoked, light drinker blah blah, has led a decent and charitable life, like i said one of lifes "good uns". I dare you to tell me she somehow "deserves" what she has or is responsible for it.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> You mentioned earlier that God will do away with Satan....What happens if Satan Doe's away with God?
> 
> So Godwill Step in and Take control of The Government...what as the next PM
> 
> It's A History that has no prove of it's existence...


The torys will put vat up to 25%


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

lizward said:


> You've not really thought this through, have you? You get STDs, chances are very high indeed that you have had sex outside of marriage at some point. You get cirrhosis of the liver, chances are very high that you have abused alcohol. You go to prison, chances are very high that you have committed a crime. You get severe mobility problems due to being mordibly obese, chances are very high you have regularly eaten far too much, etc etc etc.
> 
> Liz


*Thats the thing tho, I have thought about it too much*!. My Nan died of liver cancer...... never touched a drink. My Mama died of lung cancer........ never smoked. My Mum is 52 and currently dying with a very painful cancer and never did anything to contribute to it. Ive cared for many people with many nasty nasty illnesses and none of them deserved it many did do anything to contribute to it....... then there is the whole subject of children dying! . ect ect


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> Ahh, but not ALL. Correct?
> 
> So, given that ya wish for things, an only some come true, how is that different than praying to a rock again?
> 
> ...


God knows better than I do. Yes, sometimes he says no.

Liz


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> Becoming a Christian means that you vacate the throne of your life and Jesus becomes your King. And he makes demands. And He has to come first. So, for example, sex outside marriage is out. Failing to regularly attend church is out. There are more things that change too, of course, but those two are quite enough for most people to have difficulty with!
> 
> Liz


I understand what you mean.... God wouldnt want me then...... i lived in sin for 20 months


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

harley bear said:


> I do agree with what you say snoopy, If satan was brought to earth in 1914 and thats when murders, wars began etc then why were there murders before 1914?


Yes Exactly I Believe that Satan could be the one to save us from this 'God'

God/Church/Religion supposed to be ''peace and goodwill to all men etc''

How many Wars have been fought in the name of Religion....

I'd Rather Hug a Tree and pray to Mother Nature..


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> Thats the thing tho, I have thought about it too much!. My Nan died of liver cancer...... never touched a drink. My Mama died of lung cancer........ never smoked. My Mum is 52 and currently dying with a very painful cancer and never did anything to contribute to it. Ive cared for many people with any nasty nasty illnesses and none of them deserved it. ect ect


I know the correlation is not 100% - I have a friend who has emphysema and she has never smoked either. But the correlation between actions and consequences is there in many many cases.

I am sorry to hear about your Mum.

Liz


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Surely though you dont believe this applies to all people that have serious illnesses or have experienced tradgedy in their lives ??
> 
> And my MIL ????? She has beaten breast cancer only to be riddled with bone cancer as a secondary. Never smoked, light drinker blah blah, has led a decent and charitable life, like i said one of lifes "good uns". I dare you to tell me she somehow "deserves" what she has or is responsible for it.




This for me is where religion becomes uncomfortable for me cos I know some religious people do see things that way and I DONT believe that which is why im not a practising or devout christian.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> I understand what you mean.... God wouldnt want me then...... i lived in sin for 20 months


There is no sin that God won't forgive as long as you repent and turn to Christ (well, to be technical, there is or at least was one, but I have yet to meet anyone who has committed it)

Liz


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

harley bear said:


> I understand what you mean.... God wouldnt want me then...... i lived in sin for 20 months


My brothers FIL wouldnt truely recognise his own grandsons wedding as it didnt take place in his church.


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## mandxx (Oct 9, 2010)

bird said:


> One can only imagine the horrors that have been seen on the streets of Belfast, both in the past and more recent as things seem to be stirring up there again.


I have seen so much death and destruction it haunts me constantly. And for I what??? That there might be a God? I just don't get it and trust me I have tried in the hope that some day it will all make sense but there is no excuse or belief that has the right to kill!


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

bird said:


> My brothers FIL wouldnt truely recognise his own grandsons wedding as it didnt take place in his church.


Really? We got married abroad in a civil ceremony but we had our rings blessed before we left.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> There is no sin that God won't forgive as long as you repent and turn to Christ (well, to be technical, there is or at least was one, but I have yet to meet anyone who has committed it)
> 
> Liz


But i dont repent living in sin, i honestly dont see why i should tbh.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> I am yet to read anything that answers the question why would a GOD that is all about the love and peace allow good people (and honestly she is one of the best and has led what you would consider to be a good "cristian" life) to be blighted by such an evil end.


Well, if you want the full answer, Adam sinned and brought death, sickness and sin into the world. All of us suffer the consequences of that. Christianity has the solution to sin, but that solution does not usually involve removal of sickness.

Liz


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> You've not really thought this through, have you? You get STDs, *chances* are very high indeed that you have had sex outside of marriage at some point. You get cirrhosis of the liver, *chances* are very high that you have abused alcohol. You go to prison, *chances* are very high that you have committed a crime. You get severe mobility problems due to being mordibly obese, *chances* are very high you have regularly eaten far too much, etc etc etc.
> 
> Liz


We playing craps or talking about religion?

:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

lizward said:


> Why would He need to? We have His word in the Bible.
> 
> Liz


I have written word on my wall on the kids reward chart,, I will not argue with my family,, trust me I still have to show my face to reinforce this word!!!!!

The big guy needs to show his face, his kids are being naughty.:lol:


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Religion and Politics -the root cause of most wars. Enough said...


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

lizward said:


> There is no sin that God won't forgive as long as you repent and turn to Christ (well, to be technical, there is or at least was one, but I have yet to meet anyone who has committed it)
> 
> Liz


This is something else I often question in my head - My OH's mother is a very religious lady but not in a healthy way imo she uses God as a weapon and thinks she can behave the way she wants because she is a child of God I know she had done some very nasty and evil things to my partner in his childhood but denies it and obviously things she has been forgiven by god - does this mean you can be a nasty person ALL your life and do vicious things but then repent say on your deathbed and that god will forgive?? I just cannot accept that


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> But i dont repent living in sin, i honestly dont see why i should tbh.


Well then, you have a barrier there between you and God, and it is of your own making. He will not force you to repent. However, if you once understand who he is, you will repent, I can tell you that much!

Liz


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Really? We got married abroad in a civil ceremony but we had our rings blessed before we left.


Really and I mean REALLY staunch catholic, marriage took place in a methodist church.


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blade100 
there is God and then satan,satan was at the time watcher over adam and eve in the garden of eden.
God told them not to eat from the tree of good and bad but satan mislead them into questioning God saying if u ate from it you would positivley not die.
so they ate from it hence the reason we die as they sinned.

to answer your question regards heaven and only so many will go.
144,000 will go up to heaven to govern over the earth just like we have on earth with our own goverment that does a crappy job.the 144,000 will watch over the humans on earth of everlasting life and guide them.

*they won't do this untill satan is rid from the earth as he got cast out of heaven in 1914 down to earth.
hence the reason why we have wars,crime,famine,earthquakes,murderers,etc*.
satan is misleading the entire habited earth.
it even mentions children will become disprespectful to there parents all of this is mentioned in the last days.

as i say i'm only just learning about jehovahs witness's and what they are about.
did u know that jehovah is God's name but the church do not want u to know this is his name as they feel you shouldn't have a close relationship with him and that the church ended up taking his name out all but in some places but if u do have a bible at hand u will see its in king james version exodus 6:3,psalm 83:18,genesis 22:14
there areothers but thats just a few.

**************************

*SO There were NO Earthquakes, Famime, Crime, Murders BEFORE 1914*:lol:

I'm not being Argumentive here at all. ( Just my View ) But I Think the Adam/Eve Story, Jesus Turning wine into water and The Feeding 1 loaf and a fish to 100's of people hold as much Truth as Fairytales such as Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc.....How Do you KNOW it happened...Where is The prove? How Could you convince me that it IS True

Your last paragragh Just proves How hypercritical it all is..PLEASE Don't think I'm having ago at you But these are the roots of my total Confusion

Also Christians ''pinched'' All pagan Beliefs 'Christams' was A Yule festival .....For Yonks before ''Christmas'' came to be.

Jesus was'nt even Born in December it was January ....AND The Church don't believe in something as Real as Ghosts/Spirits BUT They'll have us believe that Jesus ''Came Back from The Cross''

Can you understand my confusion?
__________________


----------



## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

lizward said:


> I know the correlation is not 100% - I have a friend who has emphysema and she has never smoked either. But the correlation between actions and consequences is there in many many cases.
> 
> I am sorry to hear about your Mum.
> 
> Liz





lizward said:


> There is no sin that God won't forgive as long as you repent and turn to Christ (well, to be technical, there is or at least was one, but I have yet to meet anyone who has committed it)
> 
> Liz


Sorry thats where you totally lose me. So what your faith sais is you can lead the most henious existense including kiddy fiddling but as long as you repent and turn to God at the end its all ok.

Baffled by that i am afraid


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> This is something else I often question in my head - My OH's mother is a very religious lady but not in a healthy way imo she uses God as a weapon and thinks she can behave the way she wants because she is a child of God I know she had done some very nasty and evil things to my partner in his childhood but denies it and obviously things she has been forgiven by god - does this mean you can be a nasty person ALL your life and do vicious things but then repent say on your deathbed and that god will forgive?? I just cannot accept that


If someone is claiming to be a Christian and living a life that says the opposite, I'd be inclined to believe the life rather than the words. But yes, true deathbed repentance counts. It has to be the real thing though, not a fire insuracne policy!

Liz


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## mandxx (Oct 9, 2010)

ETA:Wonder sometimes if it would calm down if they really did ban marchs and parades from both sides.


I dnt think it would. I think it will never stop untill ppl compromise and accept each other for the person they are and not what they believe. Humans are very sad they just seem to want to kill each other


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> You have proof of this?


Yes, the proof is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

Liz


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

bird said:


> This is along the lines of my beliefs. I doubt I could ever go back to church, choir wouldnt have me now, voice went when I discovered booze and ****. :lol: But more seriously, its the organisation, the corruption of the word if you like that I dislike.


Same here if you want to know the truth.

The corruption and manipulation by the ORGANIZATION is what I detest.
I have my own relationship with my own...life force...as I see it...

You'd never catch me stepping foot in a church again.
The phonies, the uppities, the frauds, the look at me's, it's just too much to really be bothered with...


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> This is something else I often question in my head - My OH's mother is a very religious lady but not in a healthy way imo she uses God as a weapon and thinks she can behave the way she wants because she is a child of God I know she had done some very nasty and evil things to my partner in his childhood but denies it and obviously things she has been forgiven by god - does this mean you can be a nasty person ALL your life and do vicious things but then repent say on your deathbed and that god will forgive?? I just cannot accept that


NOR ME......Some use God to hide behind...

Alot of Murderers have stood up in court and Said 'It was gods Will..He Made me do it...I will Be forgiven.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> N
> What loving parent, for instance, would have a chosen child (people) from the whole lot of children anyway? That is, on it's face, just absurd.


There is nowhere in the Bible where unbelievers are called God's children.

Liz


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes, the proof is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
> 
> Liz


So the JEWS are all wrong?

I mean they believe in the same god...and they think Jesus was a really nice guy and all...

but he aint the Son...in their version..

So...are THEY wrong about their wishes coming true? OR just you?
Or..

hell, now I've gone and confused the subject with logic.


----------



## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

lizward said:


> There is no sin that God won't forgive as long as you repent and turn to Christ (well, to be technical, there is or at least was one, but I have yet to meet anyone who has committed it)
> 
> Liz


Just out of interest what is the one sin that is un forgiveable?


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

lizward said:


> If someone is claiming to be a Christian and living a life that says the opposite, I'd be inclined to believe the life rather than the words. But yes, true deathbed repentance counts. It has to be the real thing though, not a fire insuracne policy!
> 
> Liz


I think she does live a Christian life on the outside and for her church people to see but I dont think some of her actions which I have seen and actually bore the brunt of shows a true christian nature all of the time

So god knows who is false and who is real when repenting - he must otherwise it would be so easy for everyone I do believe in afterlife so my faith is not the normal for christianity lol


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> There is nowhere in the Bible where unbelievers are called God's children.
> 
> Liz


Who said anything about non believers?

And uh...we're All gods children, aint we?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> Also Christians ''pinched'' All pagan Beliefs 'Christams' was A Yule festival .....For Yonks before ''Christmas'' came to be.


Somehow I don't think a JW is going to disagree with you on that one 

Liz


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

EAch to their own. But a sceptical I am !


Jehovahs Witnesses! is it a religion or a money making organisation one wonders? They have a farm - yes farm - in Mill Hill, London NW7 - a ery prestigious postcode - I couldn;t afford a lock up there let alone a farm! They are seriously minted as an organisation - they send all their 'sisters' and 'brothers' out to the streets to sell the watchtower -- like tupperware sell their sarnie boxes!


----------



## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes, the proof is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
> 
> Liz


You believe that stuff do you? Is it on you tube?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> You mentioned earlier that God will do away with Satan....What happens if Satan Doe's away with God?


Not possible. God created Satan.

Liz


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

gorgeous said:


> EAch to their own. But a sceptical I am !
> 
> Jehovahs Witnesses! is it a religion or a money making organisation one wonders? They have a farm - yes farm - in Mill Hill, London NW7 - a ery prestigious postcode - I couldn;t afford a lock up there let alone a farm! They are seriously minted as an organisation - they send all their 'sisters' and 'brothers' out to the streets to sell the watchtower -- like tupperware sell their sarnie boxes!


Now that is one religion i dont understand


----------



## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

gorgeous said:


> EAch to their own. But a sceptical I am !
> 
> Jehovahs Witnesses! is it a religion or a money making organisation one wonders? They have a farm - yes farm - in Mill Hill, London NW7 - a ery prestigious postcode - I couldn;t afford a lock up there let alone a farm! They are seriously minted as an organisation - they send all their 'sisters' and 'brothers' out to the streets to sell the watchtower -- like tupperware sell their sarnie boxes!


That outfit was started by some Yank 100 odd years ago not some ancient prophet.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

poohdog said:


> You believe that stuff do you? ?


Yes of course I do.

Liz


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

lizward said:


> Somehow I don't think a JW is going to disagree with you on that one
> 
> Liz


But it was,, all christian celebrations where taken over by the church to drive out the pagon belife besides jesus was not born in december it was march sometime but the church wanted to drive off the pagon festival of the seasons and all its drink and sex LOL and said he was born then,, which is a bit pants really, even the symbol of the sun over is head is a pagon symbol of the sun god!!!!!


----------



## mandxx (Oct 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> There is no sin that God won't forgive as long as you repent and turn to Christ (well, to be technical, there is or at least was one, but I have yet to meet anyone who has committed it)
> 
> Liz


See I dnt like this idea at all either. There are scum in prison who say they have turned to God and repent but I wonder if they were out in society would they still say that when they aren't locked up where they cant hurt ppl ? They certainly didn't repent before they were caught!! And how on earth do they deserve forgiveness?????


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

poohdog said:


> You believe that stuff do you? Is it on you tube?


OMG...there is an awesome one on youtube...

but even I'm not so calloused as to do it..

this thread would be closed within minutes.

:lol::lol:


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

And what is a born again Christian? Anyone know? Used to be continually 'pounced' by one during the course of ones working day, trying to convert me - they failed lol


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes, the proof is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
> 
> Liz


Where IS the prove that thisActually happened?

The Church Try to make people believe something like that...

But Don't They believe that peoples souls can come back as Ghosts/Spirits 
But they Believe a WHOLE person came back from the Dead.

..So WHO IS The Holy GHOST?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Surely though you dont believe this applies to all people


No, I don't.

Liz


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> Where IS the prove that thisActually happened?
> 
> The Church Try to make people believe something like that...
> 
> ...


Is that not armitage shanks who you shout to with ya heed stuck down it after too many vodkas?


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

lizward said:


> Not possible. God created Satan.
> 
> Liz


Then God is not all forgiving as he cast his right hand angle away to live under the earth for haveing a difference of opionion ,, not very forgiving. but to the life me a cannot remember to quote what the tiff was about.. the books in the loft can be arse to go that high to get it..


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lizward said:


> Not possible. God created Satan.
> 
> Liz


Did He? WHY?

Frankenstein created a Monster but it took over his creator...


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

If God made us, who made God?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> Where IS the prove that thisActually happened?


The existence of the church is the proof. It would have been very easy indeed to stop the early church, all that had to be done was for the body to be produced. No-one produced it, because they could not. everyone in Jerusalem knew the tomb was empty.



> The Church Try to make people believe something like that...
> 
> But Don't They believe that peoples souls can come back as Ghosts/Spirits


Simple question, simple answer. No.



> But they Believe a WHOLE person came back from the Dead.


Yes. That is what the first Christians proclaimed and that is what Christians believe.



> ..So WHO IS The Holy GHOST?


You are getting rather confused here. The Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit is the usual term these days) is the third person of the Trinity. [Our JW friend will disagree and call him "God's active force".] There is no connection with what you think of as ghosts.

Liz


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

On the topic of religion I think there are others besides Christianity that are hard to swallow I guess like witchcraft for example all this potion and spell crap I mean thats as hard to beleive for me as believing in God would be for others lol


----------



## mandxx (Oct 9, 2010)

If we spent as much money feeding the starving and cleaning up pollution as they do on religious buildings the world would be a better place.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gorgeous said:


> And what is a born again Christian? Anyone know? Used to be continually 'pounced' by one during the course of ones working day, trying to convert me - they failed lol


Yes, the bible says that all who believe in Christ are born again. The Bible recognises only one type of Christian, and all those are born again. It means you become part of God's family, one of God's children. Usually, people specify "born again" to make it clear that they are serious about their faith. [again, our JW friend will disagree]

Liz


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I respect anyone who has a faith in something - if that helps them live their life and be happy and content then who am I to question that?? it takes all sorts - I know some people dont believe in after life or spirits etc which I do but I dont condemn them for not believing thats just their opinion


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I believe and believe everyone has the right to believe in what they wish as long as they do not try to convert me and I won't them. So I don't discuss religion as it can vary so much between people and neither is wrong even atheists have there right to not believe...


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Sorry thats where you totally lose me. So what your faith sais is you can lead the most henious existense including kiddy fiddling but as long as you repent and turn to God at the end its all ok.
> 
> Baffled by that i am afraid


You're baffled because you think some sins are worthy of hell and others are not. But God's standard is 100% - ONE sin is enough to condemn you to hell. That is why you need Jesus to stand in your place and take your sin upon himself, because he is the only one able to do that, by virtue of being sinless himself.

Liz


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

piggybaker said:


> But it was,, all christian celebrations where taken over by the church to drive out the pagon belife besides jesus was not born in december it was march sometime but the church wanted to drive off the pagon festival of the seasons and all its drink and sex LOL and said he was born then,, which is a bit pants really, even the symbol of the sun over is head is a pagon symbol of the sun god!!!!!


Did'nt work out quite that way .....us pagans Love Drink and Sex :lol:

Under the Moon/Sun or any other planet thats out at the Time

We Drink and have Sex to Celebrate the winter Soltice The Summer Soltice or any other season change :thumbup:


----------



## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> On the topic of religion I think there are others besides Christianity that are hard to swallow I guess like witchcraft for example all this potion and spell crap I mean thats as hard to beleive for me as believing in God would be for others lol


Nothing wrong with a bit of paganism, thats all the vast majority of witchcraft is. The honouring of the life force of mother nature etc. But a bit more serious than the hippies made it out to be.  Its not so much spells but herbal, thanks be to the earthprovider etc. In the mad bad olden days if you were ill you went to see the wise woman (witch) in the village who knew about herbs etc. It was man, in many forms not just religious, that crushed this out and made witchcraft how we think of it today.


----------



## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

everyone as their views on religion, im not bothered what religion anyone is its upto them who or what they believe in. 

only thing i dont like about religion is when they ram it down your throat, and one of my ex partners tried to with me


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lizward said:


> The existence of the church is the proof. It would have been very easy indeed to stop the early church, all that had to be done was for the body to be produced. No-one produced it, because they could not. everyone in Jerusalem knew the tomb was empty.
> 
> Simple question, simple answer. No.
> 
> ...


TBH I find it all very confusing....


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> So the JEWS are all wrong?
> 
> I mean they believe in the same god...and they think Jesus was a really nice guy and all...
> 
> ...


They are wrong, yes. They rejected the Messiah and they still do (well, the Messianic ones don't)

Liz


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

bird said:


> Nothing wrong with a bit of paganism, thats all the vast majority of witchcraft is. The honouring of the life force of mother nature etc. But a bit more serious than the hippies made it out to be.  Its not so much spells but herbal, thanks be to the earthprovider etc. In the mad bad olden days if you were ill you went to see the wise woman (witch) in the village who knew about herbs etc. It was man, in many forms not just religious, that crushed this out and made witchcraft how we think of it today.


just from one persons views to another its as far fetched to me as say you believing in God thats all , my opinion of course


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

bandy said:


> omg...there is an awesome one on youtube...
> 
> But even i'm not so calloused as to do it..
> 
> ...


go on i dare you


----------



## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

lizward said:


> You're baffled because you think some sins are worthy of hell and others are not. But God's standard is 100% - ONE sin is enough to condemn you to hell. That is why you need Jesus to stand in your place and take your sin upon himself, because he is the only one able to do that, by virtue of being sinless himself.
> 
> Liz


No the sin is irrelevant i was merely taking it to a logical conclusion and obvioulsy stating the extreme. I am still baffled at the concept of being able to commit sins all your life and then just wipe them all out.

Some sins are less forgivable than others, i am sorry but thats just the way it is. Drinking V Murder, they are not the same


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

What do Christians and JW's think about the existence of dinosaurs?


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> I respect anyone who has a faith in something - if that helps them live their life and be happy and content then who am I to question that?? it takes all sorts - I know some people dont believe in after life or spirits etc which I do but I dont condemn them for not believing thats just their opinion


And that's what it's all about, right there.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

mumof6 said:


> Just out of interest what is the one sin that is un forgiveable?


It's called blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and involves attributing to Satan the works of God. Many Christians believe it could only be committed whilst Christ was actually on earth.

Liz


----------



## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> No the sin is irrelevant i was merely taking it to a logical conclusion and obvioulsy stating the extreme. I am still baffled at the concept of being able to commit sins all your life and then just wipe them all out.
> 
> Some sins are less forgivable than others, i am sorry but thats just the way it is. Drinking V Murder, they are not the same


thats what i find hard to understand, i dont get how, for example, a paedophile can do what they do and still be forgiven :


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> So god knows who is false and who is real when repenting - he must otherwise it would be so easy for everyone


Yes indeed He does.

Liz


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

mumof6 said:


> thats what i find hard to understand, i dont get how, for example, a paedophile can do what they do and still be forgiven :


probs because a fair percentage of the perpetrators are and were catholics!


----------



## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

lizward said:


> It's called blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and involves attributing to Satan the works of God. Many Christians believe it could only be committed whilst Christ was actually on earth.
> 
> Liz


thank you for answering 

(though i do find it all confusing)


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

lizward said:


> Yes indeed He does.
> 
> Liz


can i have a swig please?


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

harley bear said:


> I understand what you mean.... God wouldnt want me then...... i lived in sin for 20 months


Ive been doing it 6 years lol,

What about these people
God Hates America


----------



## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

I havent had chance to read all the thread yet, so sorry if i repeat what anyone has already said but ill tell you my thoughts, for what its worth.
Personally i believe religion was created to control the masses, put the fear of a higher being into people.. As the times have changed the way people percieve it has to and people seem to cherry pick the parts that suit them.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> And uh...we're All gods children, aint we?


No. Only those who believe in Christ are God's children - John 1.12

Liz


----------



## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

It amazes me how the different groups trot out their propoganda.Brainwashed 'aint the word for it,how people can believe in virgins having kids and the dead coming back to life defeats me.

It just shows that priests are able to con some people with their lies (And have a nice cushy life doing it) just as they have for thousands of years.


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

mumof6 said:


> thats what i find hard to understand, i dont get how, for example, a paedophile can do what they do and still be forgiven :


There are a few priests around that could answer that one for you


----------



## metame (Sep 25, 2009)

poohdog said:


> It amazes me how the different groups trot out their propoganda.Brainwashed 'aint the word for it,how people can believe in virgins having kids and the dead coming back to life defeats me.
> 
> It just shows that priests are able to con some people with their lies (And have a nice cushy life doing it) just as they have for thousands of years.


virgins can have kids

thats what turkey basters are for


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

lizward said:


> It's called blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and involves attributing to Satan the works of God. Many Christians believe it could only be committed whilst Christ was actually on earth.
> 
> Liz


Now the word "believe" thats just it isnt it a kind of get out clause because no one really knows, really knows anything just "its believed that" and then it cant be questioned.


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lizward said:


> No. Only those who believe in Christ are God's children - John 1.12
> 
> Liz


So who's child am I then....Satans?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

piggybaker said:


> But it was,, all christian celebrations where taken over by the church to drive out the pagon belife besides jesus was not born in december it was march sometime but the church wanted to drive off the pagon festival of the seasons and all its drink and sex LOL and said he was born then,, which is a bit pants really, even the symbol of the sun over is head is a pagon symbol of the sun god!!!!!


I don't "do" Christmas, except as an evangelistic opportunity. I am about 95% in agreement with the JWs on that one.

Liz


----------



## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> just from one persons views to another its as far fetched to me as say you believing in God thats all , my opinion of course


Its all the same thing, just in differing names, and differing ways of worship.



snoopydo said:


> go on i dare you


Behave. 



RAINYBOW said:


> No the sin is irrelevant i was merely taking it to a logical conclusion and obvioulsy stating the extreme. I am still baffled at the concept of being able to commit sins all your life and then just wipe them all out.
> 
> Some sins are less forgivable than others, i am sorry but thats just the way it is. Drinking V Murder, they are not the same


The way I think it is, subject to what you've done and how often, if the rest of your life is blameless i.e. not necessarily going to church but being able to show you are of good heart then there is more chance of redemption that some nasty piece of work that just turns up to church on a sunday, because they want to "save" themselves.


----------



## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> Did'nt work out quite that way .....us pagans Love Drink and Sex :lol:
> 
> Under the Moon/Sun or any other planet thats out at the Time
> 
> We Drink and have Sex to Celebrate the winter Soltice The Summer Soltice or any other season change :thumbup:


I say Amen to that LOL..


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> They are wrong, yes.
> Liz


That's funny...

I mean, honestly hilarious. :lol::lol:

So, what would you tell all the Jews that believe their prayers have been answered? They are fooling themselves? Even though they believe as strongly as you and with reasons just as valid (though not provable as you've just shown)


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

mandxx said:


> See I dnt like this idea at all either. There are scum in prison who say they have turned to God and repent but I wonder if they were out in society would they still say that when they aren't locked up where they cant hurt ppl ? They certainly didn't repent before they were caught!! And how on earth do they deserve forgiveness?????


No-one EVER deserves forgiveness, it's a free gift. That is the wonderful thing about it! There is a condition and that is that you have to repent.

Liz


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

metame said:


> virgins can have kids
> 
> thats what turkey basters are for


:thumbup: you got a rep for that hun lol


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

piggybaker said:


> Then God is not all forgiving as he cast his right hand angle away to live under the earth for haveing a difference of opionion ,, not very forgiving.


I am not aware that Satan has ever repented!

Liz


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

piggybaker said:


> I say Amen to that LOL..


Amen to you to hun :thumbup:


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

The bible is just a book the stories, which were written long after the events took place. So they must have changed as the stories were passed down generation to generation.

I do believe that Jesus lived but but not that he was the son of God, again the stories where written years after his death.


----------



## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Has anyone ever read Rock Me Gently ??

If any of those "god fearing" folk deserve a seat in heaven you are more than welcome to it 

You see they were Nuns and Priests carrying out Gods Work caring for children therefore they must be guarenteed a ride on the UP elevator ????? except they abused the children in their care horrifically.

What happens to them ?? Can they just repent (as they have clearly already turned to God) and its OK. 

You see if they can i want no part of that and i believe i am the richer for it.


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

We are supposed to have sin, but did Neanderthals? **** Habilis? **** Erectus? Is is possible to logically argue that this "sin" was dependent upon some specific piece of genetic code which evolved into our species? There is evidence that other primates, like chimpanzees, not only have rudimentary rules within their groups but also an awareness of when they are and are not following them. Are chimps sinning? Did Jesus die for them, too? Should we be sending missionaries to them in zoos and jungles?


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

XxZoexX said:


> I havent had chance to read all the thread yet, so sorry if i repeat what anyone has already said but ill tell you my thoughts, for what its worth.
> Personally i believe religion was created to control the masses, put the fear of a higher being into people.. As the times have changed the way people percieve it has to and people seem to cherry pick the parts that suit them.


I think, if you break it down, a higher power, was invented for man to cope with his mortality.

Organized religion, as it is, was perverted into what you've described.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Look at the pope....

if his lavish lifestyle is evidence of living a vow of poverty...

I say bring on a vow of celibacy...

I'd be crippled in a week from all the sex.

:lol::lol:


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> No the sin is irrelevant i was merely taking it to a logical conclusion and obvioulsy stating the extreme. I am still baffled at the concept of being able to commit sins all your life and then just wipe them all out.
> 
> Some sins are less forgivable than others, i am sorry but thats just the way it is. Drinking V Murder, they are not the same


Drinking (in moderation) is not a sin. But that aside, all sins are not the same. But ANY sin is enough to send you to hell. God's standard is perfection. But ANY sin can and will be forgiven if the sinner turns to Christ. That is the wonder of God's mercy.

Liz


----------



## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> The bible is just a book the stories, which were written long after the events took place. So they must have changed as the stories were passed down generation to generation.
> 
> I do believe that Jesus lived but but not that he was the son of God, again the stories where written years after his death.


There was a book about him as a man, cant for the life of me remember what it was called, and I only managed to read a bit of it, was during a discussion with my old boss. Anyhow it went along the lines of Jesus was actually a rebel against the roman ways, more than a messiah. That was the reason he could not be pardoned. He was a rebel leader.


----------



## mandxx (Oct 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> No-one EVER deserves forgiveness, it's a free gift. That is the wonderful thing about it! There is a condition and that is that you have to repent.
> 
> Liz


Ok what about ppl that kill in the name of "GOD"?? Surely they don't think they have done wrong in the first place?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

mumof6 said:


> thats what i find hard to understand, i dont get how, for example, a paedophile can do what they do and still be forgiven :


It's called mercy, and it only applies if there is true repentance.

Liz


----------



## metame (Sep 25, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> :thumbup: you got a rep for that hun lol


:lol:

cheers


----------



## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

I lost my faith when my own nan died of cancer (brain tumours). She was an amazing lady, and very religious, she had 100% pure faith and she suffered a slow and painful death, deeply scarring everyone that was close to her. I wondered the same thing, she was a true believer, why did god let her die in such a horrific way.

I prefer to rely on nature now, everything has a purpose, if something dies, it's not for some divine reason, it's for the continuation of many other species, it's reliable, clockwork and for the most part non-mysterious. It's comforting knowing exactly how and why good and bad things happen in nature, not just "it was a punishment for sin", no one being decides what's 'good' and what's 'bad' in nature, it's all just integral to make the whole thing work.

That said, I am spiritual in that I believe in the soul. Unsure whether or not there could be reincarnation or even an afterlife but I believe people's spirits can hang around on the energy of others still alive. After all, we are all made of energy.


----------



## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> The bible is just a book the stories, which were written long after the events took place. So they must have changed as the stories were passed down generation to generation.
> 
> I do believe that Jesus lived but but not that he was the son of God, again the stories where written years after his death.


Yep, the ultimate autobiography isn't it the bible! Jesus was just an ordinary man, with a shadow writer, glitz him up a bit... A bit like Jordan and her autobiography! Add a spice and gossip get the reader going :thumbup:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

mandxx said:


> Ok what about ppl that kill in the name of "GOD"?? Surely they don't think they have done wrong in the first place?


Well, Muslim extremists aside, such people are generally mentally ill, I rather doubt that any real faith in God comes into it, with a very few exceptions.

Liz


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lizward said:


> I am not aware that Satan has ever repented!
> 
> Liz


So has Satan been in hell all these years because he made Eve eat an apple..

AND if Adam and Eve were the 1st 2 people on Earth They had kids There Kids had Kids etc etc etc.. Doe's the Bible Allow Incest?

You said God Created Satan So it must be Gods Responsibility Surely...

He Can't have it all ways.

Like I said Frankenstein made a monster and The Monster turned on his Creator.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> So who's child am I then....Satans?


Do you need me to answer that?

Liz


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

MissShelley said:


> Yep, the ultimate autobiography isn't it the bible! Jesus was just an ordinary man, with a shadow writer, glitz him up a bit... A bit like Jordan and her autobiography! Add a spice and gossip get the reader going :thumbup:


LMAO :lol::lol::lol: It Certainly Did get some people going did'nt it...:lol:


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

Bandy said:


> I think, if you break it down, a higher power, was invented for man to cope with his mortality.
> 
> Organized religion, as it is, was perverted into what you've described.
> 
> ...


:lol: :lol: Oh yes i'd def go with that :thumbup:


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> Drinking (in moderation) is not a sin. But that aside, all sins are not the same. But ANY sin is enough to send you to hell. God's standard is perfection. But ANY sin can and will be forgiven if the sinner turns to Christ. That is the wonder of God's mercy.
> 
> Liz


Poor Job and the mercy bestowed upon him, eh?
god let satan ravage that poor man for what? A pissing contest no less.
letting satan do the things he did to a man that obviously loved god is just about the most pathetic example of mercy Ive ever seen..

but then that's just me.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> So, what would you tell all the Jews that believe their prayers have been answered? They are fooling themselves? Even though they believe as strongly as you and with reasons just as valid (though not provable as you've just shown)


Sometimes God has mercy on those who are not Christians and answers their prayers anyway. That's up to Him.

Liz


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

blade100 said:


> jehovah's witness don't go to church!
> 
> its something God states in the bible that we should not worship idols.it states in the bible that Exodus 20:4-5 "you shall not make yourself a carved image or any likness of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth,you hall not bow down to them,or serve them.
> 
> ...


I have a bit of a complicated life lol, my dad is atheist, mum's family are mostly catholic, my mum claims to be catholic but isn't although she does go to church on occasion. My daughter was and wasn't christened catholic (long story) and goes to catholic school but as I'm her mother and she is a good girl and listens to her mother, is aware that the bible is just a story book filled with scarey tales and bullsh!t 

This JW stuff that I've quoted seems to make the most sense to me and fits in with some of my own beliefs. I don't believe in god or jesus and all the rest of that stuff, can't really say that I idolise anyone or anything, I believe in myself and as far as I can tell, that's about all I need to believe in.

If I ever find myself stuck and needing guidance, I talk to my dogs or go for a walk/drive along the beach and just mull things over, no need for a church.

Blood transfusions, now this is an interesting one. I was told after having my daughter that I needed a transfusion as my blood count was dangerously low but I refused and instead just asked for some decent food and iron tabs. The consultant paid me a visit to ask if it was against my religion  what, like I can't decide for myself that I don't want to risk getting some nasty from their dirty blood... not just aids or hiv but things like wart virus, herpes, that mad cow thing... none of those are checked for and why should I risk having any of those. The same thing happened a few years later... why can't doctors and nurses just accept that I don't want someone else's blood ?!?!


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Whats peoples thoughts on these religious people

America's Poster Children For Sin
Familiarize yourself with Ezekiel 16! It's the perfect portrait of america: she was a babe lying in a pool of her own blood, naked, bare, alone. The Lord covered her nakedness, swaddled her, had compassion on her, caused her to multiply and adorned her with beautiful jewels: righteous preachers, prosperity, the first amendment, etc. God Almighty blessed her and caused america to grow into a mighty, "exceeding beautiful" nation.

THEN what did america do? She played the harlot: she turned her back on God, forgetting how He had raised her and caused her to prosper, and served other gods and commit abominations (fornication, divorce/remarriage, sodomy, etc.). 
THEN she hated the fruit of her womb the Lord had given her and sacrificed her children to idols (you consume your lusts upon them and you lie to your children instead of teaching them what God requires of them). 
THEN, as if those things weren't enough, on EVERY street corner you have altars to your false gods (300,000 churches whore houses in america) and spread your legs at every opportunity to commit whoredoms. 
AND, what makes you different from the other typical, godless, whore nations, is that you don't won't accept money to play the harlot, but you give gifts to and pay others to come and commit whoredoms with you! Who ever heard of a whore paying her lovers?! Your nakedness is and will further be uncovered, America! The Lord will leave you naked and bare and desolate! "Lamentations, and morning, and woe!" Ezekiel 2:10. 
America is so filthy and abominable she almost makes all other nations look righteous in comparison - they are ashamed of YOU! 
Fornication:

America, face the facts: if you're not fornicating by fourteen you're a freak! 
Bristol Palin (Sarah Palin's daughter): "Telling young people to be abstinent is 'not realistic at all.'" (CNN) 
Can you say Planned Parenthood gift certificates? Yikes! 
"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication." 1 Thessalonians 4:3. 
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21.

Abortion:

Abortion is MURDER! 
"Thou shalt not kill." (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17, Matthew 5:21, Romans 13:9) 
More than 45 MILLION abortions since Roe vs. Wade (a United States Supreme Court decision that allows mothers to terminate their pregnancies for any reason up until the fetus is termed viable. How dare you evil men make judgments based upon the lusts of your black hearts; once again, ABORTION IS MURDER!) 
America, your leader, Antichrist Obama says he wouldn't hesitate to kill his grandbaby by abortion and pushes abortion as one of his prominent shticks. 
Divorce/Remarriage:

It's projected that up to 60% of new marriages will end in divorce. 
"Highest divorce rate" & "lowest percentage among Western nations of children who grow up with both biological parents, 63%." (USA Today) 
EVERY church whorehouse in america is filled to the brim with people who are divorced and/or remarried. 
This equals NO MORAL AUTHORITY, especially when it comes to preaching against ****, so then **** fill the pews too! 
Jesus Christ laid down the standard: "Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder… And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." Matthew 19:4-6,9. 
Sodomy:

*** manifesto - on Congressional Record in 1987 **** declared they would sodomize the nation, so that the "power of the dog" (Psalm 20:22) would rule as it did when Christ was crucified. Now that they have accomplished their agenda, the prophecy of Daniel has been fulfilled: "the abomination of desolation…standing where it ought not." (Mark 13:14) 
Lawrence vs. Texas - in 2003, the "conscience of the nation" (Supreme Court) overturned the just laws against sodomy and declared that **** be respected. In direct, bald-faced, callous defiance against God, here is when america brazenly flipped off God Almighty! That which God calls abominable and worthy of death, america elevated to acceptance and even RESPECT! 
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (Leviticus 18:22) 
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13) 
*** marriage - June 2008 - California begins marrying **** and ***** to one another. You so-called "christians" have mocked and vilified us for years as we told you this was coming. All of your kissy-poo preaching has led to this, and you get what you deserve - TOTAL DESTRUCTION, just as those who mocked and vilified Noah got. The last days are upon us, as Jesus told us in Luke 17! 
There are 2 *** rights: AIDS & Hell!This filthy abomination comes the Deuteronomy 28 "sore botch that cannot be healed." (more than 950,000 people living with HIV/AIDS -CIA factbook) "The recompence of their error which was meet." (Romans 1:27). 
Here's the standard: "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matt. 5:29. (Note: that means stop sinning, even if you have to castrate yourself with a rusty piece of barbed wire)

America, Cursed of God! Our message is very simple, and rings true in the ears of God's servants - America is taking a blood bath in Iraq (and elsewhere) because America is busily persecuting WBC for preaching the Word of God to this evil nation of perverts. God hates America. Her end is near, and approaching fast.

For 17 years we have warned you - on a daily basis, on the streets of some 460 cities in all 50 states: America needs the message of Westboro Baptist Church - "God Hates **** (and ramifications thereof)" - more than she needs air to breathe, food to eat, and water to drink. 
Meanwhile, America finalized the deal whereby she sold her soul to the ********* - following the example of Sodom, the seven nations of the Canaanites, ancient Israel, and all the doomed empires of the past, by decriminalizing and forcing people to respect those beasts which God calls an abomination Lawrence v. Texas did that, and you so-called Christians were too busy vilifying us to do anything about it. There is no possibility of relief from this wrath, because ********* and their enablers - by definition - are incapable of repenting, since they are proud of their sins, indeed won't admit it is a sin. Therefore they are wholly given up by God. 
Ancient Israel ignored God's warning about following the perversions of the doomed ******** Canaanites - and Israel also perished. That warning is found at Leviticus 18:24-28, to wit: "Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things (sodomy, incest, adultery, bestiality); for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you...That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you." Even as God today - through Westboro Baptist Church - warns America. 
And, as Christ warned doomed Jerusalem, even so WBC warns doomed America: "O America, America, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee,(translate: thou that persecutest WBC) how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" (Matt. 23:37-38).


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lizward said:


> Do you need me to answer that?
> 
> Liz


I'll take it a TRUE Then :lol:

My Brothers Called Ozzy Osbourne :lol:


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> LMAO :lol::lol::lol: It Certainly Did get some people going did'nt it...:lol:


And to think that a whole empire of religion is built on that basis :lol:


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well, Muslim extremists aside, such people are generally mentally ill, I rather doubt that any real faith in God comes into it, with a very few exceptions.
> 
> Liz


Have you ever READ the bible?

I'm being SERIOUS here.......


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## mandxx (Oct 9, 2010)

Tell that to the people that live here!

I honestly truly have tried to understand "God " but the more I try the less I believe.
I can SEE dinosaur bones, I can see the bones of Neanderthals and I have seen blood spilt in the name of God. I know which I pre-fare to see.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> The bible is just a book the stories, which were written long after the events took place.


That is a common misconception. The New Testament was virtually complete by the end of the first century. That's not very long, it's like people talking today about the second world war. Not nearly enough time for myths to develop.

Liz


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

lizward said:


> Sometimes God has mercy on those who are not Christians and answers their prayers anyway. That's up to Him.
> 
> Liz


That suggests he has "choice" which leads us back to the argument of why does he fundamentally let good people suffer 

Check out Great Ormand Street Hospital sometime, most of the poor little mites in there have no concept of religion and if they have they are too busy fighting for their lives to do anything about it.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> You see they were Nuns and Priests carrying out Gods Work caring for children therefore they must be guarenteed a ride on the UP elevator ????? except they abused the children in their care horrifically.
> 
> What happens to them ?? Can they just repent (as they have clearly already turned to God) and its OK.
> 
> You see if they can i want no part of that and i believe i am the richer for it.


I wouldn't actually accept that they have turned to Christ. But yes, if the repentance is genuine, any sinner can be forgiven. You understand, do you, that repentance means not only feeling sorry but also turning away from what you were doing and going in the opposite direction?

Liz


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> Whats peoples thoughts on these religious people
> 
> America's Poster Children For Sin
> Familiarize yourself with Ezekiel 16! Its the perfect portrait of america: she was a babe lying in a pool of her own blood, naked, bare, alone. The Lord covered her nakedness, swaddled her, had compassion on her, caused her to multiply and adorned her with beautiful jewels: righteous preachers, prosperity, the first amendment, etc. God Almighty blessed her and caused america to grow into a mighty, exceeding beautiful nation.
> ...


Extreme in the worst possible kind of way, this is where imo people use religion and twist it to their own freak way of thinking.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Are chimps sinning? Did Jesus die for them, too? Should we be sending missionaries to them in zoos and jungles?


No, he died only for humans, because only humans sin.

Liz


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

lizward said:


> I wouldn't actually accept that they have turned to Christ. But yes, if the repentance is genuine, any sinner can be forgiven. You understand, do you, that repentance means not only feeling sorry but also turning away from what you were doing and going in the opposite direction?
> 
> Liz


Again I have doubts on this matter - does feeling sorry ever justify carrying out a horrific crime?? just because you say sorry and go in an opposite direction does not mean that what you did doesnt exist anymore and doesnt count imo. the way I see it surely god would want you to work harder and prove yourself more than just saying sorry and turning away


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> So has Satan been in hell all these years because he made Eve eat an apple..


Well, no, Satan is found in the book of Job going to and fro on the earth, and later Jesus talks about Satan being cast down from heaven. When this took place is something on which i am not clear.



> AND if Adam and Eve were the 1st 2 people on Earth They had kids There Kids had Kids etc etc etc.. Doe's the Bible Allow Incest?


Not after Moses, no. Adam and Eve came a long time before Moses.



> You said God Created Satan So it must be Gods Responsibility Surely...


Yes, God created Satan for His (God's) glory. That glory will be seen in Satan's ultimate destruction.

Liz


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Extreme in the worst possible kind of way, this is where imo people use religion and twist it to their own freak way of thinking.


Its bloody scary isnt it


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Again I have doubts on this matter - does feeling sorry ever justify carrying out a horrific crime?? just because you say sorry and go in an opposite direction does not mean that what you did doesnt exist anymore.


In God's eyes, it means exactly that. You can't use it as an argument in a human court of law though!

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> No, he died only for humans, because only humans sin.
> 
> Liz


You missed out the bit about Neanderthals **** Habilis and **** Erectus. And what about the fact that the earth is billions of years old?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I think people have their own beliefs, opinions on religion but only know/ believe what they have been told really know one knows for sure and if the majority of posts on here to me is just out of this world and would make the best selling fiction book, no way could any of all this possibly be true just too out of this world too ridiculous to be true.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> Have you ever READ the bible?
> 
> I'm being SERIOUS here.......


18 times cover to cover. Were you talking about killing in the Old Testament then? I assumed you (or whoever it was) was referrign to those who commit murder today.

Liz


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

lizward said:


> In God's eyes, it means exactly that. You can't use it as an argument in a human court of law though!
> 
> Liz


Very baffling lol a lot of it is quite contradictory but I guess if you strongly believe and have that faith then you really dont question it


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

blade100 said:


> not just JW's people that haven't had the oppertunity to talk about it and get to learn,people that know bout it but are not sure,its anyone that God can read there heart conditions and if there not murderers or demon worshippers then they get to have everlasting life too.


:scared: if that were really true just think how crowded it's gonna be here on earth after the resurrection though :scared:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> You missed out the bit about Neanderthals **** Habilis and **** Erectus.


Depends whether or not they were descended from Adam.



> And what about the fact that the earth is billions of years old?


What about it?

Liz


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Bandy said:


> Poor Job and the mercy bestowed upon him, eh?
> god let satan ravage that poor man for what? A pissing contest no less.
> letting satan do the things he did to a man that obviously loved god is just about the most pathetic example of mercy Ive ever seen..
> 
> but then that's just me.


Nope it's Not just you hunni. I agree.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

sigh, I don't really know why I'm bothering, the bible is SO full of contradictions. Do Christians believe the earth is billions of years old?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Very baffling lol a lot of it is quite contradictory *but I guess if you strongly believe and have that faith then you really dont question it*


Very true.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Not at all. Jesus said that all those who do not believe in Him are already condemned (John 3.18). That isn't really very tolerant.
> 
> Liz


There is nothing remotely tolerant about the christian religion. The christian god is a childish meglaomaniac who stamps his foot and threatens to punish anyone who does not worship him and obey his every whim - whims which, incidentlly, his followers have to guess at through reading a series of writings which are merely the opinons of men about what their god is supposed to want (known as the bible)

If you met someone with the same personality traits in real life, you would not even like him, never mind worship him.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvmydogs 
You missed out the bit about Neanderthals **** Habilis and **** Erectus. 

Depends whether or not they were descended from Adam.


Quote:
And what about the fact that the earth is billions of years old? 

What about it?

Liz


Think She MAY mean the Earth was here well before Adam/Jesus/The Bible/Religion???

I Guess she doe's I Think ......


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Mother Nature is keeping an eye on things.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> There is nothing remotely tolerant about the christian religion. The christian god is a childish meglaomaniac who stamps his foot and threatens to punish anyone who does not worship him and obey his every whim - whims which, incidentlly, his followers have to guess at through reading a series of writings which are merely the opinons of men about what their god is supposed to want (known as the bible)
> 
> If you met someone with the same personality traits in real life, you would not even like him, never mind worship him.


 :thumbup:


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> There is nothing remotely tolerant about the christian religion. The christian god is a childish meglaomaniac who stamps his foot and threatens to punish anyone who does not worship him and obey his every whim - whims which, incidentlly, his followers have to guess at through reading a series of writings which are merely the opinons of men about what their god is supposed to want (known as the bible)
> 
> If you met someone with the same personality traits in real life, you would not even like him, never mind worship him.


TOTALLY Agree....100% :thumbup: Good post.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Again I have doubts on this matter - does feeling sorry ever justify carrying out a horrific crime?? just because you say sorry and go in an opposite direction does not mean that what you did doesnt exist anymore and doesnt count imo. the way I see it surely god would want you to work harder and prove yourself more than just saying sorry and turning away


I agree suze


Spellweaver said:


> There is nothing remotely tolerant about the christian religion. The christian god is a childish meglaomaniac who stamps his foot and threatens to punish anyone who does not worship him and obey his every whim - whims which, incidentlly, his followers have to guess at through reading a series of writings which are merely the opinons of men about what their god is supposed to want (known as the bible)
> 
> If you met someone with the same personality traits in real life, you would not even like him, never mind worship him.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bandy said:


> Understanding the bible
> 
> 
> 
> ...


love it!!!


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lizward 
Not at all. Jesus said that all those who do not believe in Him are already condemned


Sounds like Hitler.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2011)

I dont believe in god as a "real" entity. I think that god fills the gap in our lives - a concept that is used to answer the unanswerable, and reflects the current society, and this is why how society sees and worships god has evolved over the years. Before the mainstream religion came about, most known societies were paganistic. People knew nature, and so used religion to answer the mysteries of fertility, death, birth.... Even within jewish theology and christian theology how the bible is interpreted and worshipped has changed since their creation. I think that "prophets" and those that wrote the books of the bible were more like philosophers of their time.

Jesus was another evolution to turn an impersonal, sometime callus, god, into a more personable one. One we can attribute a face, a body, our human emotions.

I think that this is why now, religion is in decline. It hasnt really evolved recently and so seems out of date and does not reflect todays society for many.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> sigh, I don't really know why I'm bothering, the bible is SO full of contradictions. Do Christians believe the earth is billions of years old?


Some do, some don't. It's a secondary issue.

Liz


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Personally I do believe in "something". Whether that is God, a number of gods, mother nature, energy or something else entirely I have no idea - but I do believe in something.

I do NOT believe in organised religion - because every single one of them has been written by man, and is biased according to who wrote the book. The big religions exist to control the masses, and IMO there are some serious problems.

For example:

As has been mentioned repeatedly, you can be a seriously evil sod all your life - commit all 7 of the deadly sins repeatedly etc - yet repent on your death bed and all is forgiven.
That same moment, a very good person dies - a person who has lived a life of compassion and tolerance, justice and charity, who has commited none of the sins and effectively lived by the 10 commandments. Yet if they don't believe in God by the correct name they go to hell anyway!

I also object to the crap that has been touted as gods rules, when in fact it is just biased crap written by the idiots around at the time. All the anti-woman stuff being the prime example. Or perhaps the idea that masterbation is considered a greater sin than rape? (Because sexual activity is ok if there is a chance of reproduction).

And I can't follow any religion that states that spirits / ghosts do not exist because I know they do. I've heard them, smelled them and seen them. To me, they are as real as everyone else. I've seen far more evidence of them than I have a virgin birth or reincarnated carpenter.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Colette said:


> Or perhaps the idea that masterbation is considered a greater sin than rape?


Where on earth did you get that idea from?

Liz


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> 18 times cover to cover. Were you talking about killing in the Old Testament then? I assumed you (or whoever it was) was referrign to those who commit murder today.
> 
> Liz


And you missed all the killings in gods name? Or just chose to ignore them in your previous statement?

And, what diff does it make new to old? Did gods sin of killing somehow get forgiven as well?

I mean he murdered every man woman and child on the Earth with a flood...save a handful of people and 2 of each kind of amimal..if you believe that farce.

hows that for killing?

Just how did all those animals not native to that area end up there? Poof? ANOTHER magic trick?

and the are a LOT if killings in the name of god in THIS century alone...

do you not have google or do you just like to stay blissfully unaware?

:confused1::confused1:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Studying RS at A-Level. This is the general gist of what we were told...

At its basic, Catholicism is against sex, except for the sole purpose of reproduction. Sex without the chance of babies is bad and evil. Hence they are against masturbation, homosexuality, and contraception. Lets face it, this is the religion that states that even married god-fearing catholic couples should not use condoms!
Rape, obviously bad because of the sex outside of marriage thing, still carrise the possibility of bearing children (which is the only reason to have sex) and is therefore the lesser of the two evils.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2011)

Just wanted to put my views in on this although I have not read the whole thread. (it would take me forever).

As a child I used to go to church and was very.... religious as I was always in schools that made going to church the top most important thing.

However I do not believe in god...

As a child I was a only child, my mum fell pregnant with my baby sister....I was so happy to be finally getting the sister I always wanted. 

We decorated her room, I painted tree's on the wall and love hearts. 

My mum went full term and came into labour...my sister was dead.
Full term my mum had to see my sisters lifeless body be carried off while doctors tried to revive her. 

My mum had a nervous breakdown....was a mess. She also suffered a DVT at the same time and spent weeks in hospital.

Then my brother was born....autistic. My mum has had a constant fight.

No god would let a innocent child die....nor have a child live the life my little brother does were he cant talk or do anything for himself and was abused by a man we trusted. 

No one deserves that...and no god would allow that to happen.

I dont care if no one agree's with me, but imo you worship someone who does everything they can to save the innocent and if god sits back and allows things like what happened to my sister and brother and 9/11 then I dont want to worship him...

So yeah.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> And you missed all the killings in gods name? Or just chose to ignore them in your previous statement?


I understood the context of the question (can't remember who asked it) to be murders today.



> And, what diff does it make new to old? Did gods sin of killing somehow get forgiven as well?


God cannot sin by definition, since sin is an act of rebellion against god.



> I mean he murdered every man woman and child on the Earth with a flood...save a handful of people and 2 of each kind of amimal.


Yes, He has the right to do that, and one day he will consign an awful lot of people to hell. He has the right to do that because He created us.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Colette said:


> Rape, obviously bad because of the sex outside of marriage thing, still carrise the possibility of bearing children (which is the only reason to have sex) and is therefore the lesser of the two evils.


I very much doubt if that is official Catholic dogma. I suspect that you misunderstood. In any case, I am not a Catholic.

Liz


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> Yes, He has the right to do that, and one day he will consign an awful lot of people to hell. He has the right to do that because He created us.


I'm sorry but the very idea of that disgusts me. IMO that is no different to a parent who abuses and murders their child saynig, "its ok, I bred the child so it's my right to torture / kill him".


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Not possible. God created Satan.
> 
> Liz


Exactly. Satan exists only in Christian mythology - hence non-believers in christianity have no need to fear this mythical character.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

But it isn't only Catholicism that has parts I object to - ALL the major religions have flaws imo. Whether that be women being seen as second class citizens, homosexuality being a sin, dogs being dirty or pigs satanic, or whatever. The vast majority of stuff still comse down to the prejuduces of the individuals that wrote the books, all of which come down to human social issues and culture, nothing to do with the "word of god".


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> On the topic of religion I think there are others besides Christianity that are hard to swallow I guess like witchcraft for example all this potion and spell crap I mean thats as hard to beleive for me as believing in God would be for others lol


For "potion", substitute "herbal medicine", and for spell substitue "prayer". Make it any easier to swallow?


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I haven't read the past 230 posts - I will but I know if I don't post until i've read it all then this may be locked or there will be more posts to read :lol:. 

I am a Catholic, I have been baptised, christened, had my first holy communion, had my confirmation ect. I went to catholic schools so i've grown up around it. My opinion is that religion is the biggest scam going. I personally think it was a means to control people back in times when they were either too afraid or too dim to think for themselves or question authority. In times were there was no freedom or speech or right for people. It put the fear of life into them and kept them obeying the law. I don't believe that anything written in the Bible was true and that i was ever intended to be so. I think it's pretty much a fairytale, a story that people have took to outrageous extremes. I'm not nieve enough to be told that this is the word of God and thats it. No questions asked, nothing. Sorry but just because theres no proof that it didn't happy doesnt mean it did in my eyes. I personally think the whole bible is a fable that people have took far too seriously. However, if it makes someone lead a better life, gives people hope and makes them happy at the end of the day then thats great, that really is. I respect people who have that kind of faith. The problem I have with religion is that the worst monstrosities in the history of mankind have been done under the name of religion. Nothing that takes the life of so many innocent people or brainwashes people or literally wrecks peoples lifes can make the world a better place. More evil has come from religion than good. We're not brainless phesants anymore who have nothing else to look towards in life. It's time, I believe, to leave religion firmly in the past where it belongs with all the other mistakes of mankind.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Yes, He has the right to do that, and one day he will consign an awful lot of people to hell. He has the right to do that because He created us.

Liz 

************************



WHAT!!!!!!! That Statement is Disburbing to say the very least....... What God that is supposed to Symbol peace and Love as the right to Send us to Hell.......

Do you know what upsets me? The Fact I had all of this Drummed into me at School During R.E lessons.....And my Children.....Did.... And now my Grandchildren will have it taught to them too... I learn't Whilst Growing up and thinking for myself that the things I was Taught and read were so Far Fetched that it was impossible to believe.....

My Grandson just did his 1st ''Navity play'' Where they are taught that Jesus was Born on xmas Day..He WAS'NT as someone mention earlier on the post The Christians Changed His B'day Too Suit them and to Hi Jack the Pagan Calender with it....( Why is are teachers allowed to blantenly LIE to our Children?)


What makes me even MORE ANNOYED is when I was a Baby with no Voice of my own my parents had me bloody Christened...

My Children have not been and They Agree With me that it should be left until the individual should decide themselves whether to be done or not.

When They are able to make their own decisions.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Lizward, why would God do this to innocent children as in Shetlandlovers post?


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> God cannot sin by definition, since sin is an act of rebellion against god.
> 
> Yes, He* has the right to do that,* and one day he will consign an awful lot of people to hell. He has the right to do that because He created us.
> 
> Liz


Umm, if that's YOUR god, he's a prick...not a loving and forgiving god.

I can't imagine an all knowing all loving being setting down laws for me to follow that he, himself, can not.

Ok folks...

been fun...and I applaud you all for not getting petty and vicious. This has been one of the tamer religious threads Ive ever seen go this far.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> Lizward, why would God do this to innocent children as in Shetlandlovers post?


That's what I would like to know, if he is there why are the innocent suffering? 
Why are bastards like rapists get away with what they do and live a normal life yet my sister and brother dont?


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> Lizward, why would God do this to innocent children as in Shetlandlovers post?


Hes allowed to apparrently HE Created THEM 

What was that Saying.....suffer little Children let them come to me!!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I haven't read the past 230 posts - I will but I know if I don't post until i've read it all then this may be locked or there will be more posts to read :lol:.
> 
> I am a Catholic, I have been baptised, christened, had my first holy communion, had my confirmation ect. I went to catholic schools so i've grown up around it. My opinion is that religion is the biggest scam going. I personally think it was a means to control people back in times when they were either too afraid or too dim to think for themselves or question authority. In times were there was no freedom or speech or right for people. It put the fear of life into them and kept them obeying the law. I don't believe that anything written in the Bible was true and that i was ever intended to be so. I think it's pretty much a fairytale, a story that people have took to outrageous extremes. I'm not nieve enough to be told that this is the word of God and thats it. No questions asked, nothing. Sorry but just because theres no proof that it didn't happy doesnt mean it did in my eyes. I personally think the whole bible is a fable that people have took far too seriously. However, if it makes someone lead a better life, gives people hope and makes them happy at the end of the day then thats great, that really is. I respect people who have that kind of faith. The problem I have with religion is that the worst monstrosities in the history of mankind have been done under the name of religion. Nothing that takes the life of so many innocent people or brainwashes people or literally wrecks peoples lifes can make the world a better place. More evil has come from religion than good. We're not brainless phesants anymore who have nothing else to look towards in life. It's time, I believe, to leave religion firmly in the past where it belongs with all the other mistakes of mankind.


Brilliant post :thumbup:


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2011)

snoopydo said:


> Hes allowed to apparrently HE Created THEM


As far as I am aware my parents created me.....rather not think of how *shudders* but no one has the right to take a life let alone a innocent one, and a all loving god would not do that.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I haven't read the past 230 posts - I will but I know if I don't post until i've read it all then this may be locked or there will be more posts to read :lol:.
> 
> I am a Catholic, I have been baptised, christened, had my first holy communion, had my confirmation ect. I went to catholic schools so i've grown up around it. My opinion is that religion is the biggest scam going. I personally think it was a means to control people back in times when they were either too afraid or too dim to think for themselves or question authority. In times were there was no freedom or speech or right for people. It put the fear of life into them and kept them obeying the law. I don't believe that anything written in the Bible was true and that i was ever intended to be so. I think it's pretty much a fairytale, a story that people have took to outrageous extremes. I'm not nieve enough to be told that this is the word of God and thats it. No questions asked, nothing. Sorry but just because theres no proof that it didn't happy doesnt mean it did in my eyes. I personally think the whole bible is a fable that people have took far too seriously. However, if it makes someone lead a better life, gives people hope and makes them happy at the end of the day then thats great, that really is. I respect people who have that kind of faith. The problem I have with religion is that the worst monstrosities in the history of mankind have been done under the name of religion. Nothing that takes the life of so many innocent people or brainwashes people or literally wrecks peoples lifes can make the world a better place. More evil has come from religion than good. We're not brainless phesants anymore who have nothing else to look towards in life. It's time, I believe, to leave religion firmly in the past where it belongs with all the other mistakes of mankind.


good post :thumbup:


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

1 Question to all mums......


Would you let your little Son Become a Choir Boy.....In a Catholic Church?


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> As far as I am aware my parents created me.....rather not think of how *shudders* but no one has the right to take a life let alone a innocent one, and a all loving god would not do that.


agreed ........


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I dont believe in god just like I dont believe in garden faries, unicorns and the like.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Colette said:


> Studying RS at A-Level. This is the general gist of what we were told...
> 
> At its basic, Catholicism is against sex, except for the sole purpose of reproduction. Sex without the chance of babies is bad and evil. Hence they are against masturbation, homosexuality, and contraception. Lets face it, this is the religion that states that even married god-fearing catholic couples should not use condoms!
> Rape, obviously bad because of the sex outside of marriage thing, still carrise the possibility of bearing children (which is the only reason to have sex) and is therefore the lesser of the two evils.


*************************************

How Many Catholic priests have been Found to be paedophiles? The Hypocrisies make me SICK ....


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> As far as I am aware my parents created me.....rather not think of how *shudders* but no one has the right to take a life let alone a innocent one, and a all loving god would not do that.


Maybe The Devil has won and not told Liz.


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I dont believe in god just like I dont believe in garden faries, unicorns and the like.


or decent men.... :lol:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

mumof6 said:


> or decent men.... :lol:


how could I have missed that one


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

:lol:The Last 2 postssound very much like my Sig :lol:


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2011)

snoopydo said:


> Maybe The Devil has won and not told Liz.


:lol:

Maybe so........would love liz's take on it.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

haha ohh yes


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

I suppose you could say I'm Agnostic. Just reminded me to listen to this song:

YouTube - GOD- john Lennon :001_wub:


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I dont think we can honestly say God is to blame for everything bad that happens - it shouldnt be a forgone conclusion that just because you believe he will grant all your wishes - we all have our trials and tribulations to go through some worse than others granted and yes some would test "faith " to the extreme- I have asked myself on quite a few occasions with regard to my present situ with regards to children - have I done something wrong?? am I being punished for something?? Im not a bad person so why is this happening to me?? but I dont blame god - I try to look it at in another light - that maybe I have to work this hard at what others take for granted for a reason that is not know to me yet....some people when faced with great tradegy in life can look to their faith to help them its not all bad I dont think it depends on how u deal with it.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> WHAT!!!!!!! That Statement is Disburbing to say the very least....... What God that is supposed to Symbol peace and Love as the right to Send us to Hell.......


He has the right because He is God and He makes the rules. The fact that you don't like the rules doesn't mean he changes them, any more than the government of this country or any other changes its laws just because some people don't like the laws.



> My Grandson just did his 1st ''Navity play'' Where they are taught that Jesus was Born on xmas Day..He WAS'NT as someone mention earlier on the post The Christians Changed His B'day Too Suit them and to Hi Jack the Pagan Calender with it....( Why is are teachers allowed to blantenly LIE to our Children?)


I assure you, many Christians feel exactly the same way about what is taught in schools. The parents, remember, have the right to withdraw their children from anything of this sort that they don't approve of.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Lizward, why would God do this to innocent children as in Shetlandlovers post?


Do what to innocent children?

Liz


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

mumof6 said:


> or decent men.... :lol:


*Oi You!!!!*


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> What was that Saying.....suffer little Children let them come to me!!


You need to look that up in a modern translation, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Liz


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> Do what to innocent children?
> 
> Liz


Does this.....



shetlandlover said:


> Just wanted to put my views in on this although I have not read the whole thread. (it would take me forever).
> 
> As a child I used to go to church and was very.... religious as I was always in schools that made going to church the top most important thing.
> 
> ...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

As I have said before, death is not the end.

Liz


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> As I have said before, death is not the end.
> 
> Liz


Prove it...


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> As I have said before, death is not the end.
> 
> Liz


Bull turd.

Your telling me god took my sisters life because he wants her to have a afterlife? It makes no sense...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Bull turd.
> 
> Your telling me god took my sisters life because he wants her to have a afterlife? It makes no sense...


I didn't say that. I don't know why she died. I do know that all death results from Adam's sin and that physical death is not the end of the story. Beyond that, we don't know, we don't know why some people die young and others live long lives.

Liz


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lizward said:


> You need to look that up in a modern translation, it doesn't mean what you think it means.
> 
> Liz


I Did'nt mean it in the way as they'd suffer when if they went to him....


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> I didn't say that. I don't know why she died. I do know that all death results from *Adam's sin* and that physical death is not the end of the story. Beyond that, we don't know, we don't know why some people die young and others live long lives.
> 
> Liz


That would be EVE'S sin...she did it and suckered poor Adam into it...
haven't you read the bible?

Women are just next in line behind satan as evil

:lol::lol:


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Bandy said:


> That would be EVE'S sin...she did it and suckered poor Adam into it...
> haven't you read the bible?
> 
> Women are just next in line behind satan as evil
> ...


lol Bandy..Apparently I'm ALEADY Satans Daughter .....:devil::devil::devil:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> I didn't say that. I don't know why she died. I do know that all death results from Adam's sin and that physical death is not the end of the story. Beyond that, we don't know, we don't know why some people die young and others live long lives.
> 
> Liz


See, this is what gets me about the whole religion. If you believe the myth, a god creates a man and a woman - so presumably he creates in them a thirst for knowledge. Then he cruelly tells them not to satisfy that thirst. Then he deliberately puts temptation in their way (ie the tree of knowledge). Then when they obey the instinct he has made in them, he punishes not only them, but the whole of mankind - from that point on, even the most innocent little soul (ie a newborn baby) who has never drawn breath before is guilty in his eyes.

What kind of psychopath would do that in the first place?

And what kind of masochist would willingly subject themself to the rule of such a psychopath?


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

I am atheist but i respect other people's religions.

The thing is with me is for starters if we were really his beloved children he would do more to care for us. There wouldn't be such thing as war, betrayal, heartbreak, murder, disease to name a few. There are also so many different religions all with different stories and beliefs.
Where as in my eyes there is only one big bang theory. One story of solid evidence. In my lifetime and in my mother's life time and in my grandmother's life time we have seen no evidence of God. Where as you see natural occurances and evidence of the world as a working organism all the time. You can scientifically explain earthquakes, tidal waves, hurricanes, floods and weather. You can scientifically explain disease and death etc. 

Another reason I do not believe in God is because A friend's mother and father are devote christians, they go to church all the time, pray and do follow the bible and are good genuine people. Their son (my friend) was struck down by a car and died alone in the middle of the road at the age of 11, where was God then?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> That would be EVE'S sin...she did it and suckered poor Adam into it...
> haven't you read the bible?


The Bible puts the blame squarely on Adam.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> See, this is what gets me about the whole religion. If you believe the myth, a god creates a man and a woman - so presumably he creates in them a thirst for knowledge. Then he cruelly tells them not to satisfy that thirst. Then he deliberately puts temptation in their way (ie the tree of knowledge). Then when they obey the instinct he has made in them, he punishes not only them, but the whole of mankind - from that point on, even the most innocent little soul (ie a newborn baby) who has never drawn breath before is guilty in his eyes.
> 
> What kind of psychopath would do that in the first place?
> 
> And what kind of masochist would willingly subject themself to the rule of such a psychopath?


It's not just knowledge, it's "the knowledge of good and evil" ie. sin. As for the rest, God makes the rules. The fact that you don't like the rules does not change the rules. I don't like the speed limits in this country but I will still be held responsible if I do not obey them. If you don't keep the rules, you reap the consequences.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> The thing is with me is for starters if we were really his beloved children he would do more to care for us.


There is nowhere in the Bible where people in general are called God's children, the term only ever applies to believers.



> Another reason I do not believe in God is because A friend's mother and father are devote christians, they go to church all the time, pray and do follow the bible and are good genuine people. Their son (my friend) was struck down by a car and died alone in the middle of the road at the age of 11, where was God then?


What do the boy's parents think?

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> It's not just knowledge, it's "the knowledge of good and evil" ie. sin. As for the rest, God makes the rules. The fact that you don't like the rules does not change the rules. I don't like the speed limits in this country but I will still be held responsible if I do not obey them. If you don't keep the rules, you reap the consequences.
> 
> Liz


The difference is though, Liz, that a country's laws are, by and large, made with looking after the people in mind, and are agreed upon by the duly elected representatives of the people. So if anyone does not obey the law, it is right that they should reap the consequances.

However, one if one person were to suddenly say, "From now on, I am going to make all the laws and you will be punished if you don't do as I say,", then there is no sense of looking after the people there - it is just a megalomaniac who wants everything his own way. Why should anyone a) obey those laws or b) even WANT to obey those laws?

Look at some of the people in history who have done just that. Stalin. Hitler. Idi Amin. Saddam Hussein. Osama bin Laden. Kim Jong-il.

That is the kind of god christians choose to abase themselves by worshipping.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> However, one if one person were to suddenly say, "From now on, I am going to make all the laws and you will be punished if you don't do as I say,", then there is no sense of looking after the people there - it is just a megalomaniac who wants everything his own way.


The great majority of rulers throughout history have been dictators, the only reason it seems odd to people today is because they have lost the idea of absolute monarchy. It's strange how none of us would ever expect to be allowed to walk into Buck House and do what we want, though.

Yes, God is a dictator. He created us, he has the right to make the laws. Of course, he is also good. He made a wonderful world for us to live in and, for most of us most of the time, life is good. We don't get what we deserve. God doesn't strike us dead. In short, God is a benevolent dictator, and very very patient with us. But we all still have to answer to him eventually.

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> The great majority of rulers throughout history have been dictators,


Yes, and look at some of the dreadful things dictators have done. Look at how many have been risen up against and overthrown.



lizward said:


> Yes, God is a dictator. He created us, he has the right to make the laws. Of course, he is also good. He made a wonderful world for us to live in and, for most of us most of the time, life is good.


First of all, he did not create us - mankind was around long before the christian god made an appearance and tried to take credit for everything. As for life being good for most of us, that's just not true. Life is only good in the western world for those who have money. To paraphrase yourself, you only think that life is good most of the time because that is what you are used to seeing in this day and age in Britain. However, look at it globally and historically. Life was not and is not good for millions upon millions of people who are/were starving or living in fear.



lizward said:


> We don't get what we deserve.


We certainly don't. Innocent children deserve looking after, not being allowed to die horrible deaths, for example.



lizward said:


> God doesn't strike us dead. Liz


No, he just stamps his feet like the big bully he is and says that you can't be in his gang unless you do everything he says. And with that kind of behaviour, is it any wonder that more and more people are deciding they don't want to be in his gang anyway, and are turning away from christianity to other religions with a more benevolent god/goddess?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Well this has been a very interesting read,(one of my favourite subjects).
For years i believed what the JW's said but thanks to my daughter doing loads of research i have changed my mind.Which i might add wasn't easy for me.
I still believe there is a god,and i don't blame him for all the bad things that happen in this world.
Many people will moan about how god sits back and does nothing,BUT i think mankind has a damn sight more to answer for.
Religion doesn't cause wars,humans do.And why? because we can't show each other the respect we should for having different beliefs.*


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Yes, and look at some of the dreadful things dictators have done. Look at how many have been risen up against and overthrown.


Mankind thinks he can overthrow God. it doesn't really take much thoguht to realise what a ludicrous idea that is though, does it?



> First of all, he did not create us - mankind was around long before the christian god made an appearance and tried to take credit for everything.


Sorry but this is plain silly. There is only one God.



> No, he just stamps his feet like the big bully he is and says that you can't be in his gang unless you do everything he says. And with that kind of behaviour, is it any wonder that more and more people are deciding they don't want to be in his gang anyway, and are turning away from christianity to other religions with a more benevolent god/goddess?


Their end will be the same as all others who rebel against a monarch.

Liz


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> Religion doesn't cause wars,humans do.And why? because we can't show each other the respect we should for having different beliefs.


So very well put Jan


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Well this has been a very interesting read,(one of my favourite subjects).
> For years i believed what the JW's said but thanks to my daughter doing loads of research i have changed my mind.Which i might add wasn't easy for me.
> I still believe there is a god,and i don't blame him for all the bad things that happen in this world.
> Many people will moan about how god sits back and does nothing,BUT i think mankind has a damn sight more to answer for.
> Religion doesn't cause wars,humans do.And why? because we can't show each other the respect we should for having different beliefs.*


Spot on Jan


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

ClaireLouise said:


> Ive been doing it 6 years lol,
> 
> What about these people
> God Hates America


See you in hell :thumbup:



lizward said:


> No. Only those who believe in Christ are God's children - John 1.12
> 
> Liz


Then whose children are we then? satans?



poohdog said:


> It amazes me how the different groups trot out their propoganda.Brainwashed 'aint the word for it,how people can believe in virgins having kids and the dead coming back to life defeats me.
> 
> It just shows that priests are able to con some people with their lies (And have a nice cushy life doing it) just as they have for thousands of years.


Because dhe was impregnated by the holy GHOST or whatever ........ keep up!



snoopydo said:


> So who's child am I then....Satans?


Yes you are the sporn of satan suck it up!:lol:

Right off to page 18 to catch up with the rest


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well, Muslim extremists aside, such people are generally mentally ill, I rather doubt that any real faith in God comes into it, with a very few exceptions.
> 
> Liz


No extreamists are just brainwashed idiots.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> No extreamists are just brainwashed idiots.


*But that could also apply to religion.Lets face it teaching people they will burn in hell for eternity isn't exactly friendly or nice.*


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

harley bear said:


> No extreamists are just brainwashed idiots.


But not all people who have a religion/faith are extremists though 

I agree that some of these people are mentally ill and use the word religion to carry out evil acts - they are sick individuals


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> But not all people who have a religion/faith are extremists though
> 
> I agree that some of these people are mentally ill and use the word religion to carry out evil acts - they are sick individuals


I was under the impression that the poster was talking about muslim extreamists killing in the name of god. IMO they are brainwashed idiots.

I read the post wrong :/


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *But that could also apply to religion.Lets face it teaching people they will burn in hell for eternity isn't exactly friendly or nice.*


Yes that is true.


----------



## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

lizward said:


> Mankind thinks he can overthrow God. it doesn't really take much thoguht to realise what a ludicrous idea that is though, does it?
> 
> Sorry but this is plain silly. There is only one God.
> 
> ...


I am happy to take my chances rather than buy in to a religion that dictates the way i should live my life and pours scorn on the way others live theirs. Any religion that preaches tolerance and forgiveness whilst failing to practice those very core beliefs themselves is hypocrisy IMO.

This is my belief system. It's from my own mind and i am happier with that.

I don't believe in an afterlife/heaven/God i believe we live on through our actions in life, through how we have touched peoples lives and the memories they hold of us I think we leave an "imprint" which is why certain smells, songs, phrases will remind us of people long gone.

I pick up the old blue and white mixing bowl that was my nans to make something and i close my eyes, i can see, hear, smell and feel the very essence of my Nan in that bowl. I don't believe she is here with me at that moment but her "imprint" is and it makes me smile

We should strive to leave those sorts of imprints on as many people as we can in life

Maybe an overly simplistic view but its all my own


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> There is only one God.
> 
> Liz


Your god tells you that because what he offers his worshippers is basically so crap he can't run the risk of people knowing there are other gods and goddesses and defecting for a better deal.

This is why I rail so much against this religion - its total intolerance of other systems of belief. If the christian god were saying, "if you don't worship me then don't expect to benefit from any good I do" - or, "if you worship someone else then sorry but you need to pray to them for help," then I would be ok with that. What I can't accept is the way the religion tries to browbeat people into accepting all sorts of rubbish by threatening them with eternal damnation in hell with Satan if they don't believe there is only one god.

You have made historical references sereral times - here's one for you. Throughout history, most belief systems have been polytheistic. You only accept monotheism so readily because it's what you are used to in this day and age.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lizward,

Can i ask....... My aunt is a lesbian, she was married had a bad time and eventually fell in love with a woman. She has NO repent what so ever...... shes happy!

Is she going to burn in hell?


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

harley bear said:


> I was under the impression that the poster was talking about muslim extreamists killing in the name of god. IMO they are brainwashed idiots.


Yeah but in order to be brainwashed by religion wouldnt that mean ALL muslims would be brainwashed?? I just think some people who are already sick in the head and mentally unstable will probably gravitate towards what they interprete as the evil side of religion and become extremists


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> No, he just stamps his feet like the big bully he is and says that you can't be in his gang unless you do everything he says. And with that kind of behaviour, is it any wonder that more and more people are deciding they don't want to be in his gang anyway, and are turning away from christianity to other religions with a more benevolent god/goddess?





lizward said:


> Their end will be the same as all others who rebel against a monarch.
> 
> Liz


Yeah - freedom to live their lives in peace and harmony, freedom to believe in what they want to believe in.


----------



## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Bot how can anyone prove that satan is ruling the earth?
> What if its our actions that result in consequenses?


because if u read the bible you would it clearly states the wicked one is the ruler of this world!


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> Yeah but in order to be brainwashed by religion wouldnt that mean ALL muslims would be brainwashed?? I just think some people who are already sick in the head and mentally unstable will probably gravitate towards what they interprete as the evil side of religion and become extremists


I suppose any religion is brainwashing really. People believe what they want to believe and i have no problem with that. Its only when people start blowing innocent people up that i have a problem with. 
I dont mind what anyone believes in, i take people for who they are not what they believe.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

blade100 said:


> because if u read the bible you would it clearly states the wicked one is the ruler of this world!


But where is the proof?

Where is the evidence that ANY god exists?


----------



## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> So Sorry I post this on the other Thread BEFORE I saw The Change over so I've Copied/pasted here Sorry again
> 
> ******************************
> 
> ...


jehovah's witness's do not celebrate xmas!
it is the church that are pagans,they celebrate this stuff when actually jesus was born around september time as the shepherds would not be out in such cold conditions in december.
everything about xmas is pagan,the romans had lots of gods one of which was the sun god.and on the 25th dec thats when they celebrated the sun getting stronger!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Your god tells you that because what he offers is worshippers is basically so crap he can't run the risk of people knowing there are other gods and goddesses and defecting for a better deal.


I don't think eternal life is a bad deal!



> You have made historical references sereral times - here's one for you. Throughout history, most belief systems have been polytheistic. You only accept monotheism so readily because it's what you are used to in this day and age.


Well, monotheism has been around for 4000 years.

Liz


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

blade100 said:


> because if u read the bible you would it clearly states the wicked one is the ruler of this world!


*The way i see things now is like this..on the one hand we have god who is good,on the other hand we have satan who is bad.We all have a choice which path in life we wish to go down.Actualy if you think about it you don't need religion to teach you right from wrong.Thtas why we have a conscience.*


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Lizward,
> 
> Can i ask....... My aunt is a lesbian, she was married had a bad time and eventually fell in love with a woman. She has NO repent what so ever...... shes happy!
> 
> Is she going to burn in hell?


That depends on whether she dies in Christ or outside of Christ. You have no way to know what might happen, people get converted from all sorts of backgrounds.

Liz


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm still after answers to 2 big questions:

1) All this "God made us so he has the right to do as he pelases - inc torture and kill us" crap.
If that is true it is ok for parents to abuse and murder their own child, because "they created the child". Or for a pet owner to abuse and kill an animal they bred or purchased, because that animal is "theirs"?

2) Christianity is only 2011 years young. The human race has existed for millenia, and there are many religions that pre-date Christianity by thousands of years - inc various forms of Paganism, and the polytheistic religions of The Greek, Egyptians and Romans.
Even when you consider that Christianity originated from Judaism (Jesus himself being born a Jew) - Judaism is still a relatively new religion.

Why (if God created us, is the only one etc) did he not appear from the start? Why did it take tens of thousands of years before people suddenly came up with the idea of this "One true God"?

PS: One thing worthwhile from my schooldays - if anyone has an interest in religion, check out the novel "Knowledge of Angels". Blinding book. It looks at whether God exists for those that do not know him.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> That depends on whether she dies in Christ or outside of Christ. You have no way to know what might happen, people get converted from all sorts of backgrounds.
> 
> Liz


So if shes a lesbian that doesnt believe in got she burns for eternity BUT if she believes in god she doesnt?

How about someone who doesnt believe in god but has never sinned?


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Lizward,
> 
> Can i ask....... My aunt is a lesbian, she was married had a bad time and eventually fell in love with a woman. She has NO repent what so ever...... shes happy!
> 
> Is she going to burn in hell?


*I would say it depends on what religion you choose to go by.*


----------



## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Yeah but in order to be brainwashed by religion wouldnt that mean ALL muslims would be brainwashed?? I just think some people who are already sick in the head and mentally unstable will probably gravitate towards what they interprete as the evil side of religion and become extremists


No not all muslims are brainwashed, just as not all christians are like the scottish guy that preachs to everyone in the middle of this town while standing on a box. 
There are many that take and except the principles of their religions and live decent lives generally abiding by the live and let live theory. But there is always a few that whilst not being unstable etc, are so dissatisfied with their lot in life, that are impressionable and manipulated by the fanatics. These are usually young or fairly young people. Manipulation being the key word.


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

harley bear said:


> I suppose any religion is brainwashing really. People believe what they want to believe and i have no problem with that. Its only when people start blowing innocent people up that i have a problem with.
> I dont mind what anyone believes in, i take people for who they are not what they believe.


Yeah I can see what you are saying and I do know there are deffo people who become obsessed with religion in an imo unhealty way but I suppose it is how you interpretate it and use it in your own life - when it starts affecting others then its not good


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> Yeah I can see what you are saying and I do know there are deffo people who become obsessed with religion in an imo unhealty way but I suppose it is how you interpretate it and use it in your own life - when it starts affecting others then its not good


I dont give a monkeys what people choose to believe in as long as they dont push anything in my face, or try to recruit me by knocking my door several times a week


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

blade100 said:


> because if u read the bible you would it clearly states the wicked one is the ruler of this world!


But the bible is mostly a work of fiction and satan does not really exist outside christian mythology.

However, if you do believe in the bible, how do you reconcile I Corinthians 12 (where Paul talks about spiritualism being a gift from god), with your earlier post stating that it was satan who spoke through mediums? (And you posted to agree with him Liz!)

Now, can you can pick and choose which parts of the bible you choose to believe in? If that is the case, how do you choose? Why not, for example, choose to not believe in what the bible says about satan? Or , do you have to believe everything in the bible? If that is the case, why do you say that it is satan and not god who speaks through mediums when the bible clearly states the opposite?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Colette said:


> I'm still after answers to 2 big questions:
> 
> 1) All this "God made us so he has the right to do as he pelases - inc torture and kill us" crap.
> If that is true it is ok for parents to abuse and murder their own child, because "they created the child". Or for a pet owner to abuse and kill an animal they bred or purchased, because that animal is "theirs"?


There are a couple of things here. 1. None of us have the right to torture anything or anyone. We have the right to kill other humans only in limited circumstances. Mankind was given the task of being stewards of God's creation, that does not give us the right to go around wantonly abusing it. Stewards are required to care for their master's property. 2. God does not torture anyone.



> Why (if God created us, is the only one etc) did he not appear from the start? Why did it take tens of thousands of years before people suddenly came up with the idea of this "One true God"?


I do not accept that God was ever without a witness on earth. Humanity chose to disobey him, no doubt using reasoning rather similar to that seen on this thread.

Liz


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Re: Let's discuss religion HERE instead 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by harley bear 
Lizward,

Can i ask....... My aunt is a lesbian, she was married had a bad time and eventually fell in love with a woman. She has NO repent what so ever...... shes happy!

Is she going to burn in hell? 

That depends on whether she dies in Christ or outside of Christ. You have no way to know what might happen, people get converted from all sorts of backgrounds.

Liz

***************************
harley bear....Why should she burn in Hell? Your Aunt had a bad marriage and a bad life during that time.

Now she found love and happiness with a woman and is leading a Happy life.

Liz....I was under the impression from Christians that Christ/God/Jesus or whoever loved EVERYONE.

This is the part that I find really confusing.....Gods way or no way...It's just got to be wrong.

people have moved on from being dicated to by Religeon We have our own minds....It was'nt God that made this Freedom of choice happen It's called progression to be able to make your own choices.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> So if shes a lesbian that doesnt believe in got she burns for eternity BUT if she believes in god she doesnt?


It is to do with whether she repents of her sins and turns to Christ or not. Clearly at the moment she hasn;t done so but that does not mean she won't do so in future.



> How about someone who doesnt believe in god but has never sinned?


Not possible. Only one person was ever without sin. Disbelief in God is heinous sin in itself, even if it were possible to live life without committing any other sin.

Liz


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

bird said:


> No not all muslims are brainwashed, just as not all christians are like the scottish guy that preachs to everyone in the middle of this town while standing on a box.
> There are many that take and except the principles of their religions and live decent lives generally abiding by the live and let live theory. But there is always a few that whilst not being unstable etc, are so dissatisfied with their lot in life, that are impressionable and manipulated by the fanatics. These are usually young or fairly young people. Manipulation being the key word.


Yes I can see that and do agree - like I have said before some people use religion and twist it to their own gain and pick on the vulnerable.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> It is to do with whether she repents of her sins and turns to Christ or not. Clearly at the moment she hasn;t done so but that does not mean she won't do so in future.
> 
> Not possible. Only one person was ever without sin. Disbelief in God is heinous sin in itself, even if it were possible to live life without committing any other sin.
> 
> Liz


And why the hell should she repent? shes happy with someone who treats her with respect so why should she repent that?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> However, if you do believe in the bible, how do you reconcile I Corinthians 12 (where Paul talks about spiritualism being a gift from god), with your earlier post stating that it was satan who spoke through mediums? (And you posted to agree with him Liz!)


You have misunderstood 1 Cor 12. It is not about spiritualism, it is about spiritual gifts. The two are not connected in any way whatsoever.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> And why the hell should she repent? shes happy with someone who treats her with respect so why should she repent that?


If she doesn't want to repent, I am sure she won't. God won't force her to.

Liz


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

harley bear said:


> I dont give a monkeys what people choose to believe in as long as they dont push anything in my face, or try to recruit me by knocking my door several times a week


Yeah I dont agree with door knocking


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> I don't think eternal life is a bad deal!
> Liz


Depends on the lfe though, doesn't it? For millions of people in this world, their lives are so dreadful that the thought of living that kind of life forever is not a good thought.

And if eternal life is a toss up between sitting on a cloud and telling a god how wonderful he is, and staying down here with most of mankind, then I know which I'd prefer.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> If she doesn't want to repent, I am sure she won't. God won't force her to.
> 
> Liz


But if she doesnt she will burn in hell for eternity...............


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

lizward said:


> It is to do with whether she repents of her sins and turns to Christ or not. Clearly at the moment she hasn;t done so but that does not mean she won't do so in future.
> 
> Not possible. Only one person was ever without sin. Disbelief in God is heinous sin in itself, even if it were possible to live life without committing any other sin.
> 
> Liz


*That isn't true,Adam and Eve were created perfect.*


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> You have misunderstood 1 Cor 12. It is not about spiritualism, it is about spiritual gifts. The two are not connected in any way whatsoever.
> 
> Liz


Erm - yes they are. They are one and the same thing.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *That isn't true,Adam and Eve were created perfect.*


Didnt they eat forbidden fruit? was that not a sin?


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> If she doesn't want to repent, I am sure she won't. God won't force her to.


But WHAT exactly should she repent?
Not believing in God? Or being a lesbian? Personally, I think any religion that states it is a sin to be something you can't help is nonsense. Its no different to asying you should "repent" for being a midget, or for being of a certain race.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Didnt they eat forbidden fruit? was that not a sin?


*Thats when they became imperfect.*


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> Liz....I was under the impression from Christians that Christ/God/Jesus or whoever loved EVERYONE.


It is true that God loves humans, it is also true that God hates sin, and sin does not exist in a vacuum, sin exists because people are sinners. God's anger is against sinners, and it is only because God is also love that he doesn't wipe everyone out.

Liz


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Oh, and all of us that have had "spiritual" experiences - for example, seen ghosts. 
Are we all "mediums" that have the satan in us? Am I a vessel of satan, even though I do not believe in him and can't help the things I see?


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Colette said:


> But WHAT exactly should she repent?
> Not believing in God? Or being a lesbian? Personally, I think any religion that states it is a sin to be something you can't help is nonsense. Its no different to asying you should "repent" for being a midget, or for being of a certain race.


Exactly!!!:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Colette said:


> But WHAT exactly should she repent?
> Not believing in God? Or being a lesbian? Personally, I think any religion that states it is a sin to be something you can't help is nonsense. Its no different to asying you should "repent" for being a midget, or for being of a certain race.


She should repent of her rebellion against God, that is the root of all sin.

Liz


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> I do not accept that God was ever without a witness on earth. Humanity chose to disobey him, no doubt using reasoning rather similar to that seen on this thread.
> 
> Liz


There would have been records of anything like that though Liz- even if they only survived as fairy stories and legends.

The reality is 2011 years ago, (or thereabouts) a man called Jesus was crucified and mankind invented and based a whole religion on that fact, taking on aspects of many existing religions in doing so.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Colette said:


> Oh, and all of us that have had "spiritual" experiences - for example, seen ghosts.
> Are we all "mediums" that have the satan in us? Am I a vessel of satan, even though I do not believe in him and can't help the things I see?


I am not saying that and I rather doubt our resident JW (sorry I keep forgetting your name!) would say that either. Being decieved is not the same thing as deliberately setting out to channel evil spirits.

Liz


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

lizward said:


> It is true that God loves humans, it is also true that God hates sin, and sin does not exist in a vacuum, sin exists because people are sinners. God's anger is against sinners, and it is only because God is also love that he doesn't wipe everyone out.
> 
> Liz


*According to the bible we are all born sinners thanks to Adam and Eve.Is that not true?*


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> She should repent of her rebellion against God, that is the root of all sin.
> 
> Liz


Hilarious,,, seriously hilarious! So she should live a miserable life. Utter BULL!
If its something that you cant help why should she be sorry?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> The reality is 2011 years ago, (or thereabouts) a man called Jesus was crucified and mankind invented and based a whole religion on that fact, taking on aspects of many existing religions in doing so.


We went through this one a few months ago, don't you remember? All you had to offer were very obviously biased websites, some of which contained very basic and significant factual errors. However often these errors were pointed out to you, you refused to accept them and just kept quoting the same nonsense back. Do we really have to go through all that again?

Liz


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Colette said:


> But WHAT exactly should she repent?
> Not believing in God? Or being a lesbian? Personally, I think any religion that states it is a sin to be something you can't help is nonsense. Its no different to asying you should "repent" for being a midget, or for being of a certain race.





harley bear said:


> Exactly!!!:thumbup::thumbup:





lizward said:


> She should repent of her rebellion against God, that is the root of all sin.
> 
> Liz


OK - time for some logic.

1. God creates everything and everybody
2. God therefore creates lesbians
3. Why, then, if someone is merely behaving in the way she was created, does god construe that as a sin and a rebellion against him?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Hilarious,,, seriously hilarious! So she should live a miserable life. Utter BULL!
> If its something that you cant help why should she be sorry?


Who says being a Christian is miserable? I don't find it so!

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> OK - time for some logic.
> 
> 1. God creates everything and everybody
> 2. God therefore creates lesbians
> 3. Why, then, if someone is merely behaving in the way she was created, does god construe that as a sin and a rebellion against him?


Your second point is in contradiction of the Bible and therefore I do not accept it.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *According to the bible we are all born sinners thanks to Adam and Eve.Is that not true?*


Absolutely true.

Liz


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

***************************
harley bear....Why should she burn in Hell? Your Aunt had a bad marriage and a bad life during that time.

Now she found love and happiness with a woman and is leading a Happy life.

Liz....I was under the impression from Christians that Christ/God/Jesus or whoever loved EVERYONE.

This is the part that I find really confusing.....Gods way or no way...It's just got to be wrong.

people have moved on from being dicated to by Religeon We have our own minds....It was'nt God that made this Freedom of choice happen It's called progression to be able to make your own choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lizward 
It is to do with whether she repents of her sins and turns to Christ or not. Clearly at the moment she hasn;t done so but that does not mean she won't do so in future.

Not possible. Only one person was ever without sin. *Disbelief in God is heinous sin in itself, *even if it were possible to live life without committing any other sin.

Liz

THAT HAS REALLY ANNOYED ME Who the hell as the Right to sall someone a SINNER becouse they don't believe in GOD......

QUOTE; harley bear......And why the hell should she repent? shes happy with someone who treats her with respect so why should she repent that?

Exactly H/B Repent in this day and age.....for finding love and happiness wtf is that all about?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Erm - yes they are. They are one and the same thing.


No they are not. I suggest you go and read 1 Cor 12 again.

Liz


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

So my senses have been decieved? The fact I have seen, heard and smelled ghosts, that they have made physical things happen (e.g. closing doors, moving things etc)... are these all figments of my imagination? 

What about certain "apparitions" that have been witnessed by a number of people? Certainly in my parents house, I know of at least 4 people who have seen the same things, at different times. Mass hallucinations?

And what is evil about these things? In themselves they do not actually disprove God or cause people to sin. Why the link to satan? I mean "evil spirits" sounds good if your knowledge of such things is watching Paranormal Activity. Those of us that have experienced "good" and / or "neutral" spirits, inc animals or family members would ahve to disagree.

And just to clarify - if someone does accept Christ at the end, should they repent being homosexual? Is that in itself a "sin" even though God made people that way?


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> We went through this one a few months ago, don't you remember? All you had to offer were very obviously biased websites, some of which contained very basic and significant factual errors. However often these errors were pointed out to you, you refused to accept them and just kept quoting the same nonsense back. Do we really have to go through all that again?
> 
> Liz


That's merely your take on it hun - the rest of the forum thought differently! You refused to accept what was written in perfectly reliable sources because you didn't agree with it, is how I remember it. Hang on a bit and I'll reference the thread for anyone who is interested - save us having to rehash it all again.

ETA - here's the link - warning - long and involved thread covering much of what this thread is covering. :thumbup:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/123266-im-not-religious-really.html


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> OK - time for some logic.
> 
> 1. God creates everything and everybody
> 2. God therefore creates lesbians
> 3. Why, then, if someone is merely behaving in the way she was created, does god construe that as a sin and a rebellion against him?


Exactly, why not create hetrosexual people if thats the way 'he' wants everyone.



lizward said:


> Who says being a Christian is miserable? I don't find it so!
> 
> Liz


Im not saying being a christian is miserable, im merely stating the FACT that my aunt was miserable in the live that she was leading before she found her partner.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Depends on the lfe though, doesn't it? For millions of people in this world, their lives are so dreadful that the thought of living that kind of life forever is not a good thought.


That isn't the eternal life that Christ offers.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> THAT HAS REALLY ANNOYED ME Who the hell as the Right to sall someone a SINNER becouse they don't believe in GOD......


God does.

Liz


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

If i was to utter the word EVOLUTION would people have a heart attack?


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Originally Posted by snoopydo 
THAT HAS REALLY ANNOYED ME Who the hell as the Right to sall someone a SINNER becouse they don't believe in GOD...... 

God does.


See this is why I wish everyone had read Knowledge of Angels....

So, if disbelief in God is so terrible - a sin in itself - what about the folks who do not know about God?
What about those untouched tribes in deepest South America, who have never heard of your monotheistic religion, the bible or Jesus? Are they sinners because they have not received the same education as folks in Cristian countries?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Colette said:


> So my senses have been decieved? The fact I have seen, heard and smelled ghosts, that they have made physical things happen (e.g. closing doors, moving things etc)... are these all figments of my imagination?


I am not saying they were figments of your imagination. I am saying ghosts do not exist.



> And just to clarify - if someone does accept Christ at the end, should they repent being homosexual? Is that in itself a "sin" even though God made people that way?


Sex is for marriage. All sex outside marriage is sin.

Liz


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> OK - time for some logic.
> 
> *1. God creates everything and everybody
> 2. God therefore creates lesbians
> 3. Why, then, if someone is merely behaving in the way she was created, does god construe that as a sin and a rebellion against him?*


*

Ok let me try and answer your questions.
1st.God firstly created a perfect man and woman,their ofspring were imperfect because the parents sinned.
Man procreated,so we were not idividualy created by god, so god didn't create a lesbian.
i think the last bit answers your last question...lol god i'm confusing myself here.*


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> here's the link - warning - long and involved thread covering much of what this thread is covering. :thumbup:


That one reached 52 pages. I wonder if we can beat it? :lol:


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lizward said:


> You have misunderstood 1 Cor 12. It is not about spiritualism, it is about spiritual gifts. The two are not connected in any way whatsoever.
> 
> Liz


YES They Are.. Why are they NOT connected?


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> I am not saying they were figments of your imagination. I am saying ghosts do not exist.


But if they do not exist - and I did not imagine them - then what exactly are they? PLease explain - I don't see what the alternative is?


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> I am not saying they were figments of your imagination. I am saying ghosts do not exist.
> 
> Sex is for marriage. All sex outside marriage is sin.
> 
> Liz


Sex is for reproduction. just like every other animal


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Your second point is in contradiction of the Bible and therefore I do not accept it.
> 
> Liz


How can you not accept it other by admitting that God does not create everything? And if God does not create everything - wow, that is ONE big belief right out the window! Throws everything into doubt, that does.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Colette said:


> So, if disbelief in God is so terrible - a sin in itself - what about the folks who do not know about God?
> What about those untouched tribes in deepest South America, who have never heard of your monotheistic religion, the bible or Jesus? Are they sinners because they have not received the same education as folks in Cristian countries?


Actually there are at least three examples in the Bible of this sort of thing. I am convinced that anyone who genuinely seeks God will be found by Him.

Liz


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

lizward my name is Amy.

to be honest i have had enough of trying to teach these lot what i believe in.
it seems like there are a lot of piss takers on here and people should respect what others believe in.

you moan about JW's keep door knocking,just tell them your not interested and please don't come back.end of.buts its your loss if u do not want to learn.
this is how i felt last year and i'm glad i have bible studies and go to meetings at the kingdom hall which may i add is all free.

and ghosts and spirits are not what u think they are.
they are the demons that were cast ouit of heaven along with satan that wanted to follow his way.afterall they were angels created by God.
and these ghosts etc and mediums are all demons that posses humans and make u think there is an afterlife and the spirit world when there is not.

if any of u are mediums just ask this thing that is supposdly a ghost ask them how they felt when there children were drowned in the year of noah when God flooded the earth to rid the bad people.
these bad angel demons were able to come to earth and inpregnate the human women which then they had children that were called neanderful(think thats how u spell it)they were around 7ft-10ft tall and were truely bad.
so God flooded the earth to do away with them.

anyway thats all i have to say on the matter.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Colette said:


> But if they do not exist - and I did not imagine them - then what exactly are they? PLease explain - I don't see what the alternative is?


You were on the bottle :lol:


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> How can you not accept it other by admitting that God does not create everything? And if God does not create everything - wow, that is ONE big belief right out the window! Throws everything into doubt, that does.


God does not create sin.

Liz


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

blade100 said:


> lizward my name is Amy.
> 
> to be honest i have had enough of trying to teach these lot what i believe in.
> it seems like there are a lot of piss takers on here and people should respect what others believe in.
> ...


I only read the first few lines of this post.

First of all this thread is NOT an opportunity to teach people to believe in one thing or another! Its a discussion to understand what other people believe in not a recruitment thread!


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

blade100 said:


> lizward my name is Amy.


Hi Amy 



> these bad angel demons were able to come to earth and inpregnate the human women which then they had children that were called neanderful(think thats how u spell it)they were around 7ft-10ft tall and were truely bad.


Do you mean Nephilim?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Sex is for reproduction. just like every other animal


And that is just one reason why it is to be kept within marriage. However, human sex is about more than just reproduction - have a read of the Song of Solomon sometime.

Liz


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

lizward said:


> Hi Amy
> 
> Do you mean Nephilim?
> 
> Liz


yeh oops sorry got it wrong.

and i didn't mean recruiet i am merely just telling u what i believe and it feels that you are taking the mick


----------



## metame (Sep 25, 2009)

i havent read this entire thread. actually i havent read since my last post in this thread minus this page but re-found this quote and wanted to share.



> To invoke God as a blanket explanation of the unexplained is to make God a friend of ignorance. If God is to be found, it must surely be through what we discover about the world, not what we fail to discover.
> 
> - Paul Davies (physicist)


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> YES They Are.. Why are they NOT connected?


Please go and read the passage - you can find it online easily enough. At the moment you are talking about something you almost certainly have not even read.

Liz


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

blade100 said:


> lizward my name is Amy.
> 
> to be honest i have had enough of trying to teach these lot what i believe in.
> it seems like there are a lot of piss takers on here and people should respect what others believe in.
> ...


*Hi Amy, i have been down the same road as you,and trust me out in the real world you will find it even harder to put your views across.I know your not yet a JW but i will point out that using the words piss takers wouldn't go down too well with your "teachers"..*


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

blade100 said:


> yeh oops sorry got it wrong.
> 
> and i didn't mean recruiet i am merely just telling u what i believe and it feels that you are taking the mick


I'm certainly not taking the Mick, but I don't suppose you meant me. You'll find this is good practice for door knocking, anyway!

Liz


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Hi Amy, i have been down the same road as you,and trust me out in the real world you will find it even harder to put your views across.I know your not yet a JW but i will point out that using the words piss takers wouldn't go down too well with your "teachers"..*


yes i know and i am not a JW yet but i tell you i used to swear so bad using terrible words so i think i am doing ok.
i gave up smoking too.
i don't celebrate xmas or birthdays.

in my eyes i don't feel ready as of yet to be baptised and become a JW just yet.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> I am convinced that anyone who genuinely seeks God will be found by Him.


But how can someone seek God without having even the faintest concept of his existence. There are still a few people out there who have never heard of "God", never heard of monotheistic religion, never heard of a creator or of anything related to your God. HOW can they seek him out if they do not know he exists even as a concept?



> and these ghosts etc and mediums are all demons that posses humans and make u think there is an afterlife and the spirit world when there is not.


I do find this quite offensive actually. Apparently I am possessed by a demon!

As I have said before - I personally have proof, beyond all shadow of a doubt, that some sort of spirit world / afterlife / ghosts etc exist.
I have ZERO proof of God.

Yet, despite this I am an agent of a construct I do not believe in, who was himself created by another construct I do not believe in.

The mind boggles.....


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Colette said:


> But if they do not exist - and I did not imagine them - then what exactly are they? PLease explain - I don't see what the alternative is?


I wasn't there so I can't really say, but I would not rule out demonic activity.

Liz


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

lizward said:


> I'm certainly not taking the Mick, but I don't suppose you meant me. You'll find this is good practice for door knocking, anyway!
> 
> Liz


noooo that wasn't at you lizward,its the others.infact you are very knoledgable on this subject and have similar views as me.
how come?


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lizward said:


> I am not saying they were figments of your imagination. I am saying ghosts do not exist.
> 
> Sex is for marriage. All sex outside marriage is sin.
> 
> Liz


Liz, Ghost/Spirits ACTUALLY DO Exist...I've Seen Felt things Spirits are around people at all Times.....Some people connect with them others don't
I Suppose that Becouse I've attended numerous paranormal investigations that I will will burn in hell according to you..

One Story that I CAN BACK UP I was out with friends and I saw a Guy in Spirit standing behind a friend my friend saw me looking over his Shoulder and asked me what was wrong...I told him there was a man with him I Described the man in Detail...My Friend left the pub and called me later to tell me I'd described his uncle...He actually went to his Dads and got pics of him...He's Never talked about this uncle of his to me before....

I Know 100% that Spirits are around us.....Where is the prove that God is?

You are telling me and Colette that they DON'T Exist..WHY?

Just becouse you've never Seen one? But we've no evidence of God..( Well I have'nt)

Play Fair you are telling us that we are Sinners etc As we don't believe what you believe in.

We don't call you for not believing in something That WE HAVE SEEN WITH OUR OWN EYES.

And Sex is a Sin? Lovemaking is the most closet nicest act you can ever carry out with the prson that you love. So loving someone is a Sin......Today Marriage is an outdated Concept to some people....We Can Chose whether to marry or not.

It is not a sin to chose not to....


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Colette said:


> But how can someone seek God without having even the faintest concept of his existence. There are still a few people out there who have never heard of "God", never heard of monotheistic religion, never heard of a creator or of anything related to your God. HOW can they seek him out if they do not know he exists even as a concept?


I rather doubt if there is anyone in any primitive tribe who has no concept of any sort of god at all.

Liz


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Collete,

Are you a medium? or have you just seen ghosts? 

Im intreagued


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

blade100 said:


> yes i know and i am not a JW yet but i tell you i used to swear so bad using terrible words so i think i am doing ok.
> i gave up smoking too.
> i don't celebrate xmas or birthdays.
> 
> in my eyes i don't feel ready as of yet to be baptised and become a JW just yet.


*Good for you on the changes you have made,if you find it makes your life more fulfilled then good for you.I would say do a lot more research into the JW religion though.*


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

blade100 said:


> noooo that wasn't at you lizward,its the others.infact you are very knoledgable on this subject and have similar views as me.
> how come?


You'll find that Evangelical Christians will agree with you on an awful lot of things. It's just that the things we disagree on are rather fundamental.

Liz


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Good for you on the changes you have made,if you find it makes your life more fulfilled then good for you.I would say do a lot more research into the JW religion though.*


thank you and yes i am doing a lot of research and bible studies with JW's and my own research too.

though i am glad what i know and have learnt so far and me and my fiance are getting married in march so that we aren't living in sin.
but we have been together for 9 years so i think its about time anyway.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

lizward said:


> You'll find that Evangelical Christians will agree with you on an awful lot of things. It's just that the things we disagree on are rather fundamental.
> 
> Liz


i've never even heard of them before.
what sort of things do you not agree on with JW's?
i'm rather interested!


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> I Suppose that Becouse I've attended numerous paranormal investigations that I will will burn in hell according to you.


There is only one thing that will send you to hell, and that is failing to turn to Christ. I myself dabbled in the occult when I was a teenager, and my guilt was far worse than yours because I was a Christian at the time and knew it was wrong. The Lord forgave me.



> You are telling me and Colette that they DON'T Exist..WHY?


I am saying that what you saw was not a dead person, that's all.



> And Sex is a Sin?


Sex is a gift of God for use within marriage and only within marriage. Outside of marriage, it is sin.

Liz


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Collete,
> 
> Are you a medium? or have you just seen ghosts?
> 
> Im intreagued


I've seen experienced Spirits many times But of course They don't Exist 

I Believe in what I see Spirits arearoundall of us...some are just lucky to see them.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I was under the impression, from the wording of certain posts, that folks claiming to see ghosts were being called mediums.

I certainly have never called myself a medium. I have experienced ghosts or sensations etc so frequently it would take me all day to list them. It is so normal for me I've never had any doubts. 

The closest I've come to "doing" anything - I can't remember what its called but I have held jewelry and told people what images I've got from it (fairly accurately too). I have also attempted a couple of rituals / spells, nothing "textbook" just what felt right. Asking for help for others, or to say thank you. Oh, and the occassional use of a pedulum or very basic runes.

Seems to run in the family though! My nan is more "sensitive" than anyone else I've ever met.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> There is only one thing that will send you to hell, and that is failing to turn to Christ. I myself dabbled in the occult when I was a teenager, and my guilt was far worse than yours because I was a Christian at the time and knew it was wrong. The Lord forgave me.
> 
> 
> I am saying that what you saw was not a dead person, that's all.
> ...


How do you know that? Did he call, write or visit?


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Sex is for reproduction. just like every other animal


NO!!!!! it's not actually .


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> I've seen experienced Spirits many times But of course They don't Exist
> 
> I Believe in what I see Spirits arearoundall of us...some are just lucky to see them.


So have i 

But they dont exist!


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

when u see a ghost nxt time as it how he/she felt when God flooded the earth and killed its children!


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Colette said:


> But if they do not exist - and I did not imagine them - then what exactly are they? PLease explain - I don't see what the alternative is?


We know they Exist Colette. There's no alternative.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

blade100 said:


> when u see a ghost nxt time as it how he/she felt when God flooded the earth and killed its children!


When you see god ask him why he hates lesbians


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> NO!!!!! it's not actually .


You know what i mean


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

harley bear said:


> When you see gid ask him why he hates lesbians


read the bible its in there.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I said I have seen, heard, smelled and "felt" ghosts - not that I invited them for sunday lunch and had complex conversations with them.

Of course, if you can suggest some "yes or no" type questions I could get my pendulum out though?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

blade100 said:


> i've never even heard of them before.
> what sort of things do you not agree on with JW's?
> i'm rather interested!


Evangelical Christians = Christians who believe the Bible. They can be found in many denominations but also often belong to churches which call themselves Evangelical churches.

Major disagreements with the JWs (but honestly, if we get onto these here, this thread is going to drive everyone else away, so perhaps we'd better agree to keep our disagreement to ourselves): the trinity, hell, the nature of the resurrection of Christ, the person of Christ, the person of the Holy Spirit, and the use of Watchtower to interpret the Bible, two classes of Christians, the idea of the watchtower organisation being the faithful and discreet slave. There may be others, those are off the top of my head.

Liz


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Lizward, How do you KNOW god has forgiven you?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> How do you know that? Did he call, write or visit?


O, you know, there's absolutely no disputing it.

But yes, the Bible tells me so too.

Liz


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

I dont really see why people get wound up about religion.. I am not a believer but would not try to argue it with someone of faith for one main reason.

FAITH is faith...it is not that which can be disproved with science, or emotive arguments about so and so's kid, or my brothers friends uncle. It is blind belief which is what makes it faith - they do not feel physical proof is required for what their heart believes to be true.

Generally people that want Tangable proof about the existance of the supernatural or things we cannot see are not people that hold this blind faith.

And because the two different sides have different expectations the argument will go around and around - one demanding proof, the other saying you cannot proove what they know to be true.


----------



## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

lizward said:


> Evangelical Christians = Christians who believe the Bible. They can be found in many denominations but also often belong to churches which call themselves Evangelical churches.
> 
> Major disagreements with the JWs (but honestly, if we get onto these here, this thread is going to drive everyone else away, so perhaps we'd better agree to keep our disagreement to ourselves): the trinity, hell, the nature of the resurrection of Christ, the person of Christ, the person of the Holy Spirit, and the use of Watchtower to interpret the Bible, two classes of Christians, the idea of the watchtower organisation being the faithful and discreet slave. There may be others, those are off the top of my head.
> 
> Liz


i know JW don't believe in hell or the trinity.
so do u belive in it?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> No they are not. I suggest you go and read 1 Cor 12 again.
> 
> Liz


No need to hun - but I suggest you take off your x-specs and read it properly.

Mediums heal, perform miracles, prophesise, see spirits, speak in tongues, and understand other speaking in tongues. Paul points out that this does happen, but that it is a gift from God

I Corinthians 12:4-6
_There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men_

He then goes on to list the gifts that God gives to men:

I Corinthians 12: 9-11
_... to another gifts of healing by the same Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of the one and the same Spirit, and He gives them to ech one, just as HE determines._

Now, personnally, I don't believe this - I believe that everyone has psychic ability that, for many, is suppressed when young but that can be unsuppressed at any time. People were using this psychic ability long before the christian god came on the scene, and Paul's appropriation of mediumship as a gift from God is just one more example of how the christian religion sought to take over the older religions.

However, that is by the by. Your religion and your bible tell you that mediums exist and their gifts are given from God. So to post that mediums are working with evil spirits and/or satan is actually going against the teaching in your bible.

Now, I am sure that you will be able to come up with other quotes from the bible against spiritualism, witches etc, but for me that only adds to the whole contradiction that epitomises the bible.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Lizward, How do you KNOW god has forgiven you?


1. The Bible tells me so 2. You just know. The relationship is restored.

Liz


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks Spellweaver!

According to that my psychic abilities (seeing spirits and minor healing etc) arse gifts from God! A little different to being possessed by a satanic demon!


----------



## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

blade100 said:


> lizward my name is Amy.
> 
> to be honest i have had enough of trying to teach these lot what i believe in.
> it seems like there are a lot of piss takers on here and people should respect what others believe in.
> ...


My answers in red.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> 1. The Bible tells me so 2. You just know. The relationship is restored.
> 
> Liz


The bible isnt the EXACT word of god!


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Mediums heal, perform miracles, prophesise, see spirits, speak in tongues, and understand other speaking in tongues. Paul points out that this does happen, but that it is a gift from God


Mediums speak in tongues do they? I've never actually heard of that. Do you have any references?

Paul refers to discerning of spirits by the way, not seeing them. He is referring to discerning whether a spiritual gift comes from God or Satan.

Liz


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blade100 
lizward my name is Amy.

to be honest i have had enough of trying to teach these lot what i believe in.
it seems like *there are a lot of piss takers *on here and people should respect what others believe in.

you moan about JW's keep door knocking,just tell them your not interested and please don't come back.end of.buts its your loss if u do not want to learn.

*********************************************************

They've Got no right to Disturb People by knocking on Doors if people wanted to learn they would do it for themselve's.

You are calling Non-Believers piss takers..We've NOTResorted Call Believers names.

And you wrote a while back '' That Satan was sent by God in 1914....And THATS When Eartquakes, Murders, Crime etc Began :lol:

*So what about all the Eartquakes, Murders, Crime That occured BEFORE 1914 *Sorry but you've got to admit that it doe's sound WRONG.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> The bible isnt the EXACT word of god!


I believe it is.

Liz


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> Ok let me try and answer your questions.
> 1st.God firstly created a perfect man and woman,their ofspring were imperfect because the parents sinned.
> Man procreated,so we were not idividualy created by god, so god didn't create a lesbian.
> i think the last bit answers your last question...lol god i'm confusing myself here.[/B][/COLOR]


See Jan, The point I can't accept is that their offspring were imperfect just because their parents ate fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Why are the offspring sinners too? Why are they not just perfectly innocent souls born from sinners?

As for the procreation bit - surely God intended that to happen anyway? Otherwise, why make both men and women, with all the relevants parts, if you see what I mean?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

blade100 said:


> i know JW don't believe in hell or the trinity.
> so do u belive in it?


Yes, Evangelicals believe in both.

Liz


----------



## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

it comes across that u are taking the mick out of me for my beliefs.
not that your taking the mick out of JW's.


----------



## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

lizward said:


> Yes, Evangelicals believe in both.
> 
> Liz


oh i see,so u beliveve that jesus died on a cross then?and not a stake?


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm not sure about debating who is taking the mick....

I mean, I'm not the one insisting that people with beliefs different to my own are evil / sinners / possessed / doomed / hallucinating / etc.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by blade100
> lizward my name is Amy.
> 
> ...


How about one of the most famous serial killers who was known as Jack the ripper in the 1800's Was god on annual leave?


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> God does not create sin.
> 
> Liz


How many more things are you going to put on your list that he didn't create? Either he is the creator of all or he isn't. And if he isn't. then why worship him in the first place?


----------



## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopydo 
I Suppose that Becouse I've attended numerous paranormal investigations that I will will burn in hell according to you.

There is only one thing that will send you to hell, and that is failing to turn to Christ. I myself dabbled in the occult when I was a teenager, and my guilt was far worse than yours because I was a Christian at the time and knew it was wrong. The Lord forgave me.

*(( Paranormal Investigatons Is NOT Dabbling into The Occult For 1.))*Quote:
You are telling me and Colette that they DON'T Exist..WHY?

I am saying that what you saw was not a dead person, that's all.

*(( No We see The Spirit of the Dead person ))*

Quote:
And Sex is a Sin?

Sex is a gift of God for use within marriage and only within marriage. Outside of marriage, it is sin.

*(( Again that is just Someone's Believe it's NOT Mine))*Liz

*So when you reach the Age where you've Decided you don't want anymore kids....You have a life with No Sex *


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

So how did god come to exist and where did he exist before he created the earth, man etc?


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

So when you reach the Age where you've Decided you don't want anymore kids....You have a life with No Sex 

Obviously. Just like you shouldn't use contraception, masturbate, or have sex with someone of the same sex. And, by the same reasoning, if you are infertile you shouldn't do it either. Supposedly.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Colette said:


> So when you reach the Age where you've Decided you don't want anymore kids....You have a life with No Sex
> 
> Obviously. Just like you shouldn't use contraception, masturbate, or have sex with someone of the same sex. And, by the same reasoning, if you are infertile you shouldn't do it either. Supposedly.


Thats what i was going to say!


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

blade100 said:


> and ghosts and spirits are not what u think they are.
> they are the demons that were cast ouit of heaven along with satan that wanted to follow his way.afterall they were angels created by God.
> and these ghosts etc and mediums are all demons that posses humans and make u think there is an afterlife and the spirit world when there is not.


Not according to your bible Amy. According to your bible, the spirits who speak through mediums are from your god. So if this is what your bible tells you, why do believe differently?


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

My Daughter is 22 with 2 little Boys..she only wants 2 children..

So she's now got to lead a life of Celibacy????? WHY?

Oh yes She''ll be a sinner..


Liz....Do you have Sex BTW?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Colette said:


> But how can someone seek God without having even the faintest concept of his existence. There are still a few people out there who have never heard of "God", never heard of monotheistic religion, never heard of a creator or of anything related to your God. HOW can they seek him out if they do not know he exists even as a concept?
> 
> I do find this quite offensive actually. Apparently I am possessed by a demon!
> 
> ...


Hang on in there hun - you know the truth, I know the truth, millions of others know the truth - it's just the christians that can't accept it!


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Not according to your bible Amy. According to your bible, the spirits who speak through mediums are from your god. So if this is what your bible tells you, why do believe differently?


Well according to Liz if you see Ghost/Spirits Investigate you are Dabbling with the Occult...

NOT CORRECT The Occult is a Completely Different Subject.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

blade100 said:


> oh i see,so u beliveve that jesus died on a cross then?and not a stake?


Yes. In fact to be honest this is one thing I find rather hard to understand about the JWs, I don't understand why the idea of a cross as opposed to a stake is such an issue. Either way, Christ is nailed to it, and the Romans had various designs of these delightful instruments of torture.

Purely out of interest, why was it that you started studying with the JWs rather than, for example, attending a church? Just curious.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> My Daughter is 22 with 2 little Boys..she only wants 2 children..
> 
> So she's now got to lead a life of Celibacy????? WHY?


Who said she has to live a life of celibacy? If she's married, she can do as much of it as she likes.



> Liz....Do you have Sex BTW?


I'm married!

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Savahl said:


> I dont really see why people get wound up about religion.. I am not a believer but would not try to argue it with someone of faith for one main reason.
> 
> FAITH is faith...it is not that which can be disproved with science, or emotive arguments about so and so's kid, or my brothers friends uncle. *It is blind belief which is what makes it faith - they do not feel physical proof is required *for what their heart believes to be true.
> 
> ...


Spot on. And EVERY religion thinks they have it right - I live in a Muslim country, they absolutely think Christians have got it wrong. All people who believe totally in one type of religion think the others have it wrong. It would be very difficult to persuade them otherwise. 

I believe if lizward had happened to have been born in Saudi Arabia, she would be preaching a different story now.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colette 
But how can someone seek God without having even the faintest concept of his existence. There are still a few people out there who have never heard of "God", never heard of monotheistic religion, never heard of a creator or of anything related to your God. HOW can they seek him out if they do not know he exists even as a concept?



I do find this quite offensive actually. Apparently I am possessed by a demon!

As I have said before - I personally have proof, beyond all shadow of a doubt, that some sort of spirit world / afterlife / ghosts etc exist.
I have ZERO proof of God.

Yet, despite this I am an agent of a construct I do not believe in, who was himself created by another construct I do not believe in.

The mind boggles..... 

Spellweaver.....
Hang on in there hun - you know the truth, I know the truth, millions of others know the truth - it's just the christians that can't accept it! 


*****************************************************

I get being called a piss Taker Highly offence Too 

I Did'nt ask to See Spirit I just saw and had Experiences Involuntary... THAT Why I joined a paranormal Group to find Answers and to Get MORE Experiences. And to begin to understand it more.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> *So when you reach the Age where you've Decided you don't want anymore kids....You have a life with No Sex *


I don't know where you got that from.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> How many more things are you going to put on your list that he didn't create? Either he is the creator of all or he isn't. And if he isn't. then why worship him in the first place?


God created man with free will. Sin is rebellion against God. It's not a difficult concept surely? I realise you don't believe it, but the concept shouldn't be that difficult?

Liz


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> See Jan, The point I can't accept is that their offspring were imperfect just because their parents ate fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Why are the offspring sinners too? Why are they not just perfectly innocent souls born from sinners?
> 
> As for the procreation bit - surely God intended that to happen anyway? Otherwise, why make both men and women, with all the relevants parts, if you see what I mean?


*The only answer i can come up with is this,once Adam and Eve had sinned then it was passed onto their children.ie. it became genetic..just my oppion though.
If i'm honest,i think it would have been fairer to have done away with Adam and Eve and started again.But i'm just a mear mortal.*


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

lizward said:


> Yes. In fact to be honest this is one thing I find rather hard to understand about the JWs, I don't understand why the idea of a cross as opposed to a stake is such an issue. Either way, Christ is nailed to it, and the Romans had variosu designs of these delightful instruments of torture.
> 
> Purely out of interest, why was it that you started studying with the JWs rather than, for example, attending a church? Just curious.
> 
> Liz


my soon to be husband works with a jehovah's witness has done for 10 yrs.jamie would come home from work and tell me things les(JW) had mentioned and in the end i was rather intrigued and wanted to learn more.

it was when he came home and told me to read scripture mathew 24:7-8
this got me thinking.

i used to go to church when i was little but all they did was read out the church commitys and the funds needed,events going on in that village and then a hym,read a sripture no explanation of that reading and then home.

the church also worship idols and statyes something of which the bible states not to do.

and seeing as JW don't have any symbols in the kingdom hall and we read over the sriptures and disscuss it all really opened my eyes.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lizward said:


> Who said she has to live a life of celibacy? If she's married, she can do as much of it as she likes.
> 
> I'm married!
> 
> Liz


She's not married as it's her Choice not to believe in marriage...Her and her partners love for one another is enough for them

Oh, So your ok then .....Some of us chose Not to be Conditioned by marriage Though ''personal Choice'

I've been married Twice...Not in a Church ( I just Could'nt ) be a Hypercrite

And Divorced Twice...And now I have Sex with my partner of 7 years...

I Want to start attending a Spiritual Chuch....I Go on paranomal Investigations.....Regulary have have Ghostly experiences in my House Too..

I Care For all Animals/plants/Tress... I love Nature, I Help people out as much as I possibly can...

I Chose my career for my love of Dogs.

I'm a loving caring mum and Nan.

I class myself as a Caring Friendly person Who doe's my best in life to help others..

If all that makes me a Sinner ..... so be it.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

blade100 said:


> my soon to be husband works with a jehovah's witness has done for 10 yrs.jamie would come home from work and tell me things les(JW) had mentioned and in the end i was rather intrigued and wanted to learn more.
> 
> it was when he came home and told me to read scripture mathew 24:7-8
> this got me thinking.
> ...


I see, thanks for explaining.

Liz


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Originally Posted by snoopydo 
So when you reach the Age where you've Decided you don't want anymore kids....You have a life with No Sex 

I don't know where you got that from.

Liz

I got That from you......You don't HAVE to married to have kids...

So if your not married ''In the eyes of ''God'' it makes you Some Sinner


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> * If i'm honest,i think it would have been fairer to have done away with Adam and Eve and started again.But i'm just a mear mortal.*


That is extremely funny


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Mediums speak in tongues do they? I've never actually heard of that. Do you have any references?


Yeah - here

The psychology of speaking in tongues: A review *@psychohistorian.org

Glossolalia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

gift of tongues (religion) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

I could go list many more sites, but you would only refuse to reciognise them because they ar written by scholars of religions other than christianity.



lizward said:


> Paul refers to discerning of spirits by the way, not seeing them. He is referring to discerning whether a spiritual gift comes from God or Satan.
> 
> Liz


Paul is referring to a whole range of gifts *given to men* by god and making sure that they know the gifts are from god and not satan. Those gifts are mediumistic gifts which include healing, miraculous powers, distinguishing between spirits, prophecy, speaking in tongues, understanding the speaking of tongues. He says that these gifts are given for the common good.

You can't wriggle out of it Liz - it's there in black and white in your bible.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

anyway i'm going now,been on here too long and i feel i have said all i can say.

thanks for reading and i'm sorry if i upset anyone i did not mean to,its just it felt you were having a laugh at what a firmly believe.

as i said before this is a thread to discuss all religion and i've expressed my religion.

bye


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I think we should all at least try and respect what others beliefs are even if we dont agree with it and not ridicule them


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> I got That from you......You don't HAVE to married to have kids...


No, what you got from me was that sex outside marriage is sin. There are no limits on sex inside marriage.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Yeah - here
> 
> The psychology of speaking in tongues: A review *@psychohistorian.org
> 
> ...


Well, thank you. I have learned something.



> Paul is referring to a whole range of gifts *given to men* by god and making sure that they know the gifts are from god and not satan. Those gifts are mediumistic gifts which include healing, miraculous powers, distinguishing between spirits, prophecy, speaking in tongues, understanding the speaking of tongues. He says that these gifts are given for the common good.


Any of these "gifts" practiced outside of Christianity are simply demonic. I am grateful to you for making me aware of this, it means I shall be even more cautious next time I am in a meeting where such things are happening.

Liz


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Can you answer my question about the year 1914 please?

When The Murders etc STARTED.  Thought the Devil was around long before 1914 anyway. 

The Devil has been mentioned well BEFORE 97 years ago.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well, thank you. I have learned something.
> 
> Any of these "gifts" practiced outside of Christianity are simply demonic. I am grateful to you for making me aware of this, it means I shall be even more cautious next time I am in a meeting where such things are happening.
> 
> Liz


How is Spirituality Demonic?

I don't understand your logic here.

According to You ANYTHING OUTSIDE Christianity...Is Demonic, Sinful, Evil, Wrong.

This is simply NOT True..


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> How is Spirituality Demonic?
> 
> I don't understand your logic here.
> 
> ...


There is only one true God. Worship of any other gods is therefore worship of demons.

Liz


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

harley bear said:


> So have i
> 
> But they dont exist!


And I have experienced God and his holy spirit 
But of course that dont exist !



Savahl said:


> I dont really see why people get wound up about religion.. I am not a believer but would not try to argue it with someone of faith for one main reason.
> 
> FAITH is faith...it is not that which can be disproved with science, or emotive arguments about so and so's kid, or my brothers friends uncle. It is blind belief which is what makes it faith - they do not feel physical proof is required for what their heart believes to be true.
> 
> ...


well said it just go's round and round.



suzy93074 said:


> I think we should all at least try and respect what others beliefs are even if we dont agree with it and not ridicule them


Exactly Suzy and this thread is full of ridicule.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lizward said:


> There is only one true God. Worship of any other gods is therefore worship of demons.
> 
> Liz


I Think That Statement is Sinful in itself. 

We were Talking Spirituality and it is'nt a God So where doe's that come from?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> I Think That Statement is Sinful in itself.
> 
> We were Talking Spirituality and it is'nt a God So where doe's that come from?


*It isn't if you believe in certain religions.*


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> We were Talking Spirituality and it is'nt a God So where doe's that come from?


In what context are these practices carried out?

Liz


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by harley bear 
And why the hell should she repent? shes happy with someone who treats her with respect so why should she repent that? 

********************************************************

If she doesn't want to repent, I am sure she won't. God won't force her to.

Liz


No one should force her Too Ether ....What has she got to repent for anyway Being Happy?


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## debijw (May 25, 2009)

In the words of George Carlin
YouTube - George Carlin - Religion is bullshit.

Watch at you own discretion, some bad language. 
this is the only post I will be making on this thread.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> I Think That Statement is Sinful in itself.
> 
> We were Talking Spirituality and it is'nt a God So where doe's that come from?


Liz This is my idea of Spiritualty......

You are surrounded by spirituality everyday. The definition of spirituality is that which relates to or affects the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things. Spirituality touches that part of you that is not dependant on material things or physical comforts.

Let's discover how to recognize spirituality in your everyday life. 
There is a way to bring spirituality back into the forefront of your everyday life. Spirituality is all around you. Spirituality is in everyone you meet and everywhere you go. You are a spiritual being deep down under the trappings of this material world. Now you can rediscover that spirituality in your everyday life.

 Be aware of your surroundings, see past the physical, and see the spirit in all things. Think of the things that make you happy.

 Look at your loved ones, experience the love you feel for them. That love is pure joy and that's spirituality.

 What makes you smile? That's new age spirituality. The simple sight and sound of a child's laughter, the quiet peaceful sight of a cat napping in the sun, that's spirituality.

 A quiet walk on a spring day, the gentle breeze, the sound of birds chirping, the smell of flowers and freshly cut grass, it's all the definition of spirituality.

Whatever makes you feel peaceful, joyful and content is spirituality.

 Notice all the acts of kindness and good you encounter throughout your day, that's spirituality.

 Devote just a few minutes a day to quietly meditate on all the good things in your life, that's spirituality.

Sorry is Copied / pasted But This is The Best Way To Describe What it means to me.....Sums up exactly how I feel...

You DON'T practice it it's JUST THERE All around you.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

As I have said before, anyone who wholeheartedly follows any religion thinks they have it right. Lizward, if you had studied ALL religions and then decided on Christianity, I may have more respect for you. But your religion is merely part of where you were born and your experiences as a Western woman.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

i use to believe in a Christian God but not anymore because i dont think any God would have given one animal a soul and made all the rest souless, 


the planet would be in a much better state if we believed that everything has a spirit and that we are not some superior being who has the God given right to 'lord' it over all other creatures and that we have every right to take from the earth whatever we want......sorry but i really dont believe any God would have distanced us from nature and every other living thing to a point where we are not only killing of all the creatures and the environment but ultimately ourselves:confused1:..


i think the Native Americans had it spot on... the earth is our Mother and we should care for her and respect her and that everything has has a spirit including the water and the earth these people beleived their God encompassed and cherished everything so they didnt trash their environment because they were taught to respected it and everything living in it.


Treat the earth well.
It was not given to you by your parents,
it was loaned to you by your children.
We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors,
we borrow it from our Children.

Ancient Indian Proverb


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Colette said:


> I was under the impression, from the wording of certain posts, that folks claiming to see ghosts were being called mediums.
> 
> I certainly have never called myself a medium. I have experienced ghosts or sensations etc so frequently it would take me all day to list them. It is so normal for me I've never had any doubts.
> 
> ...


All sorts of people see ghosts and spirits hun - it's as natural a part of the world as the air around us. We are all born with a psychic ability and, like any ability, it is stronger in some than others. But because as we grow up we are told it is nonsense, a lot of us deny the ability and stop using it - doesn't mean it isn't still there though.

Mediumship is a slightly different gift. Mediums see/hear/sense spirits and ghosts and allow themselves to be used as a channel to pass messages on to other people from the spirits they see, or to pass healing on to people from spirit.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i use to believe in a Christian God but not anymore because i dont think any God would have given one animal a soul and made all the rest souless,
> 
> the planet would be in a much better state if we believed that everything has a spirit and that we are not some superior being who has the God given right to 'lord' it over all other creatures and that we have every right to take from the earth whatever we want......sorry but i really dont believe any God would have distanced us from nature and every other living thing to a point where we are not only killing of all the creatures and the environment but ultimately ourselves:confused1:..
> 
> ...


I like that concept :thumbup: it's very true, i always say that we are failing our children with the way we are screwing things up at the moment :frown:


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

How We Know We Are in "the Last Days" - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> God created man with free will. Sin is rebellion against God. It's not a difficult concept surely? I realise you don't believe it, but the concept shouldn't be that difficult?
> 
> Liz


I'm not struggling with any concept here Liz - but you are. You are not applying sufficient logic.

1. God is creator of all
2. If god created man with free will, then this free will obviously includes the ability to sin.
3. I order for god to create the ability to sin, he must have had a concept of what sin was in the first place
4. In order for god to have a concept of what sin was, sin must already exist.
5. If sin exists and god is creator of all, he must have created sin.

Either god is creator of all, or he isn't. You can't pick and chose which bits of creation are from god and which aren't. (or rather you can and do, but you shouldn't!)


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Well, thank you. I have learned something.


You're welcome 



lizward said:


> *Any of these "gifts" practiced outside of Christianity are simply demonic*. I am grateful to you for making me aware of this, it means I shall be even more cautious next time I am in a meeting where such things are happening.
> 
> Liz


and your proof for stating what I have outlined in bold is .........?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> There is only one true God. Worship of any other gods is therefore worship of demons.
> 
> Liz


There is no logic in that statement whatsoever. In order for your statement to be true, the world would have to exist of merely one god and demons.

Just because you don't worship one god, does not mean you worship demons - you could worship anything from the latest maserati to Keanu Reeves


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

edit: epic post sorry!

i agree with spell weaver:

this is also something i have a problem with, 'gods' version of things as written down by mere humans (not sure about how many faiths this covers, but christianity and offshoots definately). 

you can't beleive in self-creationism.. god created everything, including the dinosaurs, just cos the writers of the bible didn't know about them didn't mean he didn't create them.. people were less advanced back then after all.

so no self-creationism.. so who created god? there must be a population of 'gods', perhaps we are his science project?
and of course there is no other god so what is satan? he can't be worshipped as he is not a god, he is 'clearly' one of gods creations. a false idol? satan can't be vanquished as he is loved by god as one of his creations, why would he want one of his own creations destoryed simply for another of his creations to gain the upper hand? that is not what he (currently) preaches in the bible. that is not tolerance.

he is omnipotent.. so why do you need to prove your failty to him? why did he torture that chap with the TWO wives into sacraficing his favourite child from his first wife to show that he was a true believer in god blah blah blah? surely he should already have known that this chap was a true believer, the chap certainly thought so before this. why would a good, nurturing caring god scare a child into thinking his father wanted him dead to the point that the knife was hovering over his body seconds from demise? 
as said in WL's tread, good or evil god, split personality.
'gods' attitude has changed according to OUR perception of things we write the bible, not god, it has been our reinterpretation of the original text that has led us to the 2 different gods.
vastly different from other religions with lots of gods, were some are good and benevolent and others are evil, malevolent or mischievious in order to suit ourselves so we can worship as we feel the need. all are accepted.. why? because we are human, we err, we 'need' gods to show us that things are acceptable to a point and can be controlled, or diminished or corrected.

omnipresent.. he is everywhere why the need for churches? you don't need to worship in a building when you can worship outside, in your home, in your car where-ever you are he will hear you. why the need for priests, popes at all, they only regurgitate what you can read yourself,is it to ensure that you interpret it the 'correct' way? brain washing, crowd control methods as i see it.


basically we need gods to blame, to shout at, to question, to make our lives have meaning. we created the gods (just check egypt out, alexander the great invented Azhurmazda in alexandria, ptolemy's city.

the bible isn't the 'truth' as we most see it, the bible is full of 'tales' of morality, how you should act, what you shouldn't do, why you should believe in something if it is only yourself, the tales of jesus andhis followers gives you someone of interest someone normal that is not a king to allow us the common person to be happy following in his footsteps of tolerance, benevolence, helpful and unselfishness. the writers may not have been the brains of the world but they understood people very well, the earliest psycologists maybe. they new that we didn't see our kings and queens as 'normal' people, we wouldn't follow their example, but we would follow a normal carpenter who preached being good and moral. they gave us stories to allow us to see examples of where we could falter and how we could overcome it.

that is how i see religion and that is why i have my own.
i know what i believe and it isn't in any book, my god is my own, you can't share my god, you can't share my believes, you can know them but you can't follow them. they can't be written down as they are ever changing.

Follow your own, have your own god and believe that other people have the right to do the same without prejudice. Don't question their faith, question their beliefs.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

owieprone said:


> edit: epic post sorry!
> 
> i agree with spell weaver:
> 
> ...


REP :thumbup:


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

if the bible is a load of rubbish,then how come they have found old tablets thats the big pieces of engraved stone with bible writings on?these are in the british musem!
along with pieces of old scroll with the bible writings on.

also the bible was written thousands of years ago so how come in mentions that in the last days there would be food shortages,earthquakes,pestilance,lovers of money,lovers of them selves,there will fornicators,children will be disrespectful to there parents,puffed up with pride,slanderers,having no natural affection ,blasphemers.

take a look in your bible if u have one 2 timothy 3:1-6
mathew 24: 6 and 8

how were they to know that this would be happening in the world today?
yes it was written by man but God inspired them to write all this.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


blade100 said:



How We Know We Are in "the Last Days" - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site

Click to expand...

Now here's a problem i have with JW they were founded in 1870? if i'm right.What i would like to know is this.If god wanted people to know his name why were the JW's not about before the 1870's?
Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

the kingdom hall where we have meetings JW's don't have priests or vicars just other JW reading scriptures from the bible.

we don't have carved images,idols,we do not kneel and bow down to figures made out of stone or wood.

we simply pray to God whilst lowering our heads and close our eyes.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

blade100 said:


> if the bible is a load of rubbish,then how come they have found old tablets thats the big pieces of engraved stone with bible writings on?these are in the british musem!
> along with pieces of old scroll with the bible writings on.
> 
> also the bible was written thousands of years ago so how come in mentions that in the last days there would be food shortages,earthquakes,pestilance,lovers of money,lovers of them selves,there will fornicators,children will be disrespectful to there parents,puffed up with pride,slanderers,having no natural affection ,blasphemers.
> ...


I think it is more like "philosophy" than the word of any god. There are also cave paintings and all sorts that tell stories...doesnt make them true. Those that predate the written word!

Stories and philosophies that are a way to explain the unexplainable. Give reason to the worlds pain, and a reason for society to act as one.

And the things that you describe arent unique to now, they have been going on for centuries, and will for centuries more in my opinion.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

blade100 said:


> if the bible is a load of rubbish,then how come they have found old tablets thats the big pieces of engraved stone with bible writings on?these are in the british musem!
> along with pieces of old scroll with the bible writings on.
> 
> also the bible was written thousands of years ago so how come in mentions that in the last days there would be food shortages,earthquakes,pestilance,lovers of money,lovers of them selves,there will fornicators,children will be disrespectful to there parents,puffed up with pride,slanderers,having no natural affection ,blasphemers.
> ...


Every religion starts somewhere, they didnt have pens and paper thousands of years ago like they had ink and paper in the 1870's


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

blade100 said:


> if the bible is a load of rubbish,then how come they have found old tablets thats the big pieces of engraved stone with bible writings on?these are in the british musem!
> along with pieces of old scroll with the bible writings on.
> 
> also the bible was written thousands of years ago so how come in mentions that in the last days there would be food shortages,earthquakes,pestilance,lovers of money,lovers of them selves,there will fornicators,children will be disrespectful to there parents,puffed up with pride,slanderers,having no natural affection ,blasphemers.
> ...


None of the things you mentioned above are new to humankind. There have always been periods of food shortage, earthquakes are not new neither is pestilance and you only have to look at previous civilisations to see the rest also  These things are not new to the world ???


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> Now here's a problem i have with JW they were founded in 1870? if i'm right.What i would like to know is this.If god wanted people to know his name why were the JW's not about before the 1870's?
> Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*


beacuse back then there were only few people that could read and so it was only the vicars or priests that could read the bible and seeing as it was in latin people had to take what these vicars said.

it was founded by a chap called Charles Taze Russell at that time who printed the first english versions and many people were killed for trying to do good.but people wanted to learn the truth and this is how it has come about today.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

blade100 said:


> beacuse back then there were only few people that could read and so it was only the vicars or priests that could read the bible and seeing as it was in latin people had to take what these vicars said.
> 
> it was founded by a chap called Charles Taze Russell at that time who printed the first english versions and many people were killed for trying to do good.but people wanted to learn the truth and this is how it has come about today.


*Like yourself i believed that for the best part of 40+ years,but think about it..If god wanted his will and name to be known to all he would have made sure there was a way of letting people know.*


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

blade100 said:


> if the bible is a load of rubbish,then how come they have found old tablets thats the big pieces of engraved stone with bible writings on?these are in the british musem!
> along with pieces of old scroll with the bible writings on.
> 
> also the bible was written thousands of years ago so how come in mentions that in the last days there would be food shortages,earthquakes,pestilance,lovers of money,lovers of them selves,there will fornicators,children will be disrespectful to there parents,puffed up with pride,slanderers,having no natural affection ,blasphemers.
> ...


the bible isn't a load of rubbish neither is the quran but it is someone elses version of events mostly written years after the fact, revised centuries if not millenia after the fact. they shouldn't be taken as wrote they should be taken with a pinch of salt, interpret them how you will but they are not the truth they are an echo, a version, upgraded with each new religion to be someone elses ideal. it is a historical biography in essence.

follow that if you want, take the tennents given and follow them but don't follow them blindly, take what you need and ignore what isn't you.

the bible and similar books are as important to you as my haynes manual for my mk1 golf (i am NOT being sarcastic or belittling here), what you see as important is not the same for everyone else, you shouldn't expect someone else to have the same beliefs as you even if they are from the same faith, and especially if they are not.

lots of old things are found in museums but that doesn't prove they should be idolised or taken as truth.. after all bill shakespeares plays are old and for the uninititaed could be seen as a true reflection of what life was like in those days.. such as witches being real.

people poke fun at religions because they are scared of them, what they have achieved, what they can do to whole communities, countries and the world. they cause problems as well as solve them. the cause giant problems and solve little ones. 
but as most books 'quote', do not kill, do not maim, tolerate, educate and most of all, love thy neighbour.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

i don't expect anyone to have the same beliefs as me i never even said that!!!
just telling people what I believe in.


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## reido (Dec 4, 2010)

noah knew how to look after 2 types of every animal, knew how to get there breeding conditions spot on, knew there dietry needs, keapt the breeds seperated well enough to stop others eating others, knew how there suroundings should be (heat and water dwellers etc) and sinle handedly made this and looked after all the animals while navigating the arc. what a talented guy.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

reido said:


> noah knew how to look after 2 types of every animal, knew how to get there breeding conditions spot on, knew there dietry needs, keapt the breeds seperated well enough to stop others eating others, knew how there suroundings should be (heat and water dwellers etc) and sinle handedly made this and looked after all the animals while navigating the arc. what a talented guy.


and in the confined space of a boat thats brave as well as talented.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

owieprone said:


> edit: epic post sorry!
> 
> i agree with spell weaver:
> 
> ...


I agree totally! :thumbup: Rep from me too :thumbup:


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

thats it i had enough of this thread yet again it looks like someone has stepped in to take the mickey.

what ever u believe in all that matters is it makes you happy,i know what i believe is comforting and some day we will ALL know what is out there.

i will not be commenting on this subject ever again well not on here anyway.

it seems that the whole thread is targetting JW's beliefs and there has been hardly any mention of what the chrch believes,catholics,muslims,buddahs etc.

GOODBYE.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

blade100 said:


> thats it i had enough of this thread yet again it looks like someone has stepped in to take the mickey.
> 
> what ever u believe in all that matters is it makes you happy,i know what i believe is comforting and some day we will ALL know what is out there.
> 
> ...


actually i wasn't talking to just you. sorry if it came across like that, i was just using your post as a general starting point. i thought the fact i'd mentioned the quran and other things you hadn't touched up on in your post would have made it seem more general. i will be more careful in future to be blindingly obvious... blade.

edit, i'm also NOT taking the mick.. i'm being deadly serious, there ARE my beliefs.

edit 2, i don't know anything about jw's i said catholasixm.. arg spelling gone haywire.... and said that it may include other faiths that i know nothing about and don't want to... i am being general, i am not pointing to any one religion, any one person.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

blade100 said:


> thats it i had enough of this thread yet again it looks like someone has stepped in to take the mickey.
> 
> what ever u believe in all that matters is it makes you happy,i know what i believe is comforting and some day we will ALL know what is out there.
> 
> ...


  

no one is being 'targetted'.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

owieprone said:


> actually i wasn't talking to just you. sorry if it came across like that, i was just using your post as a general starting point. i thought the fact i'd mentioned the quran and other things you hadn't touched up on in your post would have made it seem more general. i will be more careful in future to be blindingly obvious... blade.
> 
> edit, i'm also NOT taking the mick.. i'm being deadly serious, there ARE my beliefs.


its not u its the other couple of posts on this page,the comment about the ark for one and harley has taken the mick on a few occasions with silly pictures and remarks.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

harley bear said:


> and in the confined space of a boat thats brave as well as talented.


sarcassim.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

blade100 said:


> its not u its the other couple of posts on this page,the comment about the ark for one and harley has taken the mick on a few occasions with silly pictures and remarks.


C'mon, i was brought up 'christian' but instead of believing everything i read i like to take a more logical look at things and have come to realise some things just are not possible.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

well thats fine but don't upset others by posting comments that will rub people the other way!


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

blade100 said:


> its not u its the other couple of posts on this page,the comment about the ark for one and harley has taken the mick on a few occasions with silly pictures and remarks.


so?

why does it bother you? if they want to poke fun let them. that's what people do, it's funny, other faiths have to put up with it, it's like southpark in here, no one gets away without being made fun of. get used to it. everyone has general ideas about other cultures, people faiths and use it to make jokes.

they don't believe in what you believe in, big whoop, stop worrying about what other people think.

you are happy with what you believe yes? why does it matter what they think of your beliefs? are they you? no.. sod em.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

blade100 said:


> thats it i had enough of this thread yet again it looks like someone has stepped in to take the mickey.
> 
> what ever u believe in all that matters is it makes you happy,i know what i believe is comforting and some day we will ALL know what is out there.
> 
> ...


*I respect your beliefs and i don't think anyone is taking the mick.As i said to you earlier you will get far worse when you go out knocking on peoples doors.If your faith is strong you will be able to argue your corner and not give 2 hoots for what others think.
As for the catholic faith, well i'm sorry but they are the biggest hypocrites in my book.Just to add, i'm not saying all catholics are bad.*


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

harley bear said:


> C'mon, i was brought up 'christian' but instead of believing everything i read i like to take a more logical look at things and have come to realise some things just are not possible.


like a proper debate on here with out dollies being thrown out of the pram?

i agree


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

owieprone said:


> so?
> 
> why does it bother you? if they want to poke fun let them. that's what people do, it's funny, other faiths have to put up with it, it's like southpark in here, no one gets away without being made fun of. get used to it. everyone has general ideas about other cultures, people faiths and use it to make jokes.
> 
> ...


yeh i know it just hurts sometimes thats all.
people should be more careful when it comes to religion.
its a sensitve subject.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

blade100 said:


> well thats fine but don't upset others by posting comments that will rub people the other way!


I find it more than a little strange that you are NOT a JW yet, but you get rubbed up the wrong way by the most silly things.
Like i said im technically a christion but that dont stop me questioning it.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

what i have come to learn so far i truely believe in.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

blade100 said:


> yeh i know it just hurts sometimes thats all.
> people should be more careful when it comes to religion.
> its a sensitve subject.


only if you let it be.

this is how wars are started you know.


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

owieprone said:


> only if you let it be.
> 
> this is how wars are started you know.


yes i do know,so anyway i'm going to leave this subject and let others have a go at what they think to it all.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

blade100 said:


> yeh i know it just hurts sometimes thats all.
> people should be more careful when it comes to religion.
> its a sensitve subject.


It does and I feel the same, its because its so personal its a part of who we are, so questions are one thing and I respect that, but the scoffing remarks are uncalled for.



harley bear said:


> I find it more than a little strange that you are NOT a JW yet, but you get rubbed up the wrong way by the most* silly things.*
> Like i said im technically a christion but that dont stop me questioning it.


To you it may be but not to people that have had there belief as a lifeline thru the hardest times.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

owieprone said:


> like a proper debate on here with out dollies being thrown out of the pram?
> 
> i agree


Exactly, I believe what i believe and i dont mind it being picked apart and looked at in a realistic way. At the end of the day i have no proof to back up what i believe (nor does anyone else) so people have the right to have their own opinions and beliefs.



owieprone said:


> only if you let it be.
> 
> this is how wars are started you know.


I agree.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

blade100 said:


> also the bible was written thousands of years ago so how come in mentions that in the last days there would be food shortages,earthquakes,pestilance,lovers of money,lovers of them selves,there will fornicators,children will be disrespectful to there parents,puffed up with pride,slanderers,having no natural affection ,blasphemers.
> 
> take a look in your bible if u have one 2 timothy 3:1-6
> mathew 24: 6 and 8
> ...


But hun - pick any piece of history at random and you'll find all the above happening


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> but the scoffing remarks are uncalled for.
> .


OK - who are you and what have you done with Waterlily??!! :scared:


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> OK - who are you and what have you done with Waterlily??!! :scared:


:lol: well just saying it how I feel thats all, it is a sensitive topic.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> :lol: well just saying it how I feel thats all, it is a sensitive topic.


be more open about it, talk about it more and it won't be, just like everything else that used to be 'taboo' to talk about.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

owieprone said:


> be more open about it, talk about it more and it won't be, just like everything else that used to be 'taboo' to talk about.


its hard for me to talk about it when there is so much ridicule, some people are been serious and Liz has answered better then I ever could, but see for me I am against religion, but I believe In God, from my own personal experiences, and some of those are unexplainable so I dont feel I should push them onto people when they wont believe it anyway, not making sense prolly but its private for me.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> its hard for me to talk about it when there is so much ridicule, some people are been serious and Liz has answered better then I ever could, but see for me I am against religion, but I believe In God, from my own personal experiences, and some of those are unexplainable so I dont feel I should push them onto people when they wont believe it anyway, not making sense prolly but its private for me.


That makes perfect sense..... to me anyway.

I believe there is 'something', a higher power, maybe god, maybe not. But when i think about the nitty gritty of religion i dont really believe it. not that there isnt a god, but the religion.

now that didnt make sense, its very hard to explain :lol:


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> its hard for me to talk about it when there is so much ridicule, some people are been serious and Liz has answered better then I ever could, but see for me I am against religion, but I believe In God, from my own personal experiences, and some of those are unexplainable so I dont feel I should push them onto people when they wont believe it anyway, not making sense prolly but its private for me.


people ridicule cos they're thick as mince and either don't understand why you would believe in such things or don't know anything about the subject.

just cos someone doesn't believe in what you believe in is no reason not to talk about it. if they ridicule you then so be it, but you may actually give someone a bit of knowledge, understanding and tolerance that they never had before. there's not harm in talking about it, you're not trying to convert them just like any debate you're trying to get them to understand your point of view and see why you think the subject is a good/bad thing.

there is no harm in simply putting your beliefs across in order to educate someone about you.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

harley bear said:


> That makes perfect sense..... to me anyway.
> 
> I believe there is 'something', a higher power, maybe god, maybe not. But when i think about the nitty gritty of religion i dont really believe it.
> 
> now that didnt make sense, its very hard to explain :lol:


:lol: ok well I have seen the church from the inside out, I work doing the finances in one  and what I have seen has severely burnt me and I hate what it has become, I dont tell that to anyone but hell may as well say it here lol, I know exactly why people hate the church, but the actual faith the spiritual side of it is what I cling to, not the people, I have no trust in them at all and have seen enough to screw them over tbh, but wont. But on the topic of God I am very hurt when Its mocked, because it if wasnt for my own experiences I would have killed myself a long time ago, and hell not that long ago as well


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> its hard for me to talk about it when there is so much ridicule, some people are been serious and Liz has answered better then I ever could, but see for me I am against religion, but I believe In God, from my own personal experiences, and some of those are unexplainable so I dont feel I should push them onto people when they wont believe it anyway, not making sense prolly but its private for me.


You're making perfect sense hun and don't feel that you need to explain any further. Religion is a very private thing to many people and I respect that. It's just that some people blindly follow religions without questioning what they are taught, and then they start trying to make out that their religion is the only way to live (whatever the religion) and that the rest of mankind are doomed. That's what makes my blood boil and I have to get going with the ripostes in order to make them think for themselves - even if, after exercising the little grey cells, they still find their answers in their religion.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

owieprone said:


> people ridicule cos they're thick as mince and either don't understand why you would believe in such things or don't know anything about the subject.
> 
> just cos someone doesn't believe in what you believe in is no reason not to talk about it. if they ridicule you then so be it, but you may actually give someone a bit of knowledge, understanding and tolerance that they never had before. there's not harm in talking about it, you're not trying to convert them just like any debate you're trying to get them to understand your point of view and see why you think the subject is a good/bad thing.
> 
> there is no harm in simply putting your beliefs across in order to educate someone about you.


thanks mate x guess I just expect the ridicule so dont bother anymore.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> You're making perfect sense hun and don't feel that you need to explain any further. Religion is a very private thing to many people and I respect that. It's just that some people blindly follow religions without questioning what they are taught, and then they start trying to make out that their religion is the only way to live (whatever the religion) and that the rest of mankind are doomed. That's what makes my blood boil and I have to get going with the ripostes in order to make them think for themselves - even if, after exercising the little grey cells, they still find their answers in their religion.


See I agree with you, just got hurt thats all that some comments were going to far.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> :lol: ok well I have seen the church from the inside out, I work doing the finances in one  and what I have seen has severely burnt me and I hate what it has become, I dont tell that to anyone but hell may as well say it here lol, I know exactly why people hate the church, but the actual faith the spiritual side of it is what I cling to, not the people, I have no trust in them at all and have seen enough to screw them over tbh, but wont. But on the topic of God I am very hurt when Its mocked, because it if wasnt for my own experiences I would have killed myself a long time ago, and hell not that long ago as well


i'm not a big fan of churchs (roman catholic in particular) having been in a few and seeing the 'riches' used to decorate it.... and the poor that congregate in it and give it money.

then are supposed to reshod it when the roof fails if they live within the parish.....

is it the mormons who take 5% of your earnings?

don't get that at all, you pay to worship something that is incoporeal.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> See I agree with you, just got hurt thats all that some comments were going to far.


I feel kind of like you WL I believe in God but in my own way lol not a pure christian way - as long was what you believe in helps you in your life hun then it works!! and that is all that counts imo Religion is a very PERSONAL thing and is different for every individual xxx


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

owieprone said:


> i'm not a big fan of churchs (roman catholic in particular) having been in a few and seeing the 'riches' used to decorate it.... and the poor that congregate in it and give it money.
> 
> then are supposed to reshod it when the roof fails if they live within the parish.....
> 
> ...


I dont know about mormons but am working in a charismatic church its ten percent, but not demanded of you. I stopped tithing when I saw how wealthy my pastor is and saw how struggling grannys were giving all they had so he could have perfect teeth etc 
I also dont go to church anymore and have had my job threatened because of that but refuse to go I cant be there anymore, if they fire me they fire me I dont care, but they do need me and I know to much so doubt they will 
I have learnt thru been there that people are assholes but God still helps me thru stuff even if he dont change the situation or make my life swell he dont leave me floundering alone, he comforts me. 
The bad stuff sure sucks but I didnt hate him when my bro died just trusted him that there was a reason and I do understand why people hate him for that kind of thing, I myself struggled with anger at him and confusion doubt etc, but cant explain it as eloquently as others without getting frustrated so I dont.  But do know my life has been walked the hard road but one with him. :frown:


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> I dont know about mormons but am working in a charismatic church its ten percent, but not demanded of you. I stopped tithing when I saw how wealthy my pastor is and saw how struggling grannys were giving all they had so he could have perfect teeth etc
> I also dont go to church anymore and have had my job threatened because of that but refuse to go I cant be there anymore, if they fire me they fire me I dont care, but they do need me and I know to much so doubt they will
> I have learnt thru been there that people are assholes but God still helps me thru stuff even if he dont change the situation or make my life swell he dont leave me floundering alone, he comforts me.
> The bad stuff sure sucks but I didnt hate him when my bro died just trusted him that there was a reason and I do understand why people hate him for that kind of thing, I myself struggled with anger at him and confusion doubt etc, but cant explain it as eloquently as others without getting frustrated so I dont.  But do know my life has been walked the hard road but one with him. :frown:


aye that's how i see churches too, a way for the church itself to keep rich and ignore it's original concept. obviously not all are like this but everyone i've been in has, which admittedly probably isn't more than 50.

if they sack you i'd see about doing them for unfair dismissal after all they'll be ignoring one of their own 'rules', tolerance and acceptance of all. plus i don't think you can fire people on religion no matter who you are, unless youre the pope and you worship satan.. then maybe... they'd have a case. even if it's in your contract that you 'must' worship it's not upholdable by law as far as i know.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

owieprone said:


> aye that's how i see churches too, a way for the church itself to keep rich and ignore it's original concept. obviously not all are like this but everyone i've been in has, which admittedly probably isn't more than 50.
> 
> if they sack you i'd see about doing them for unfair dismissal after all they'll be ignoring one of their own 'rules', tolerance and acceptance of all. plus i don't think you can fire people on religion no matter who you are, unless youre the pope and you worship satan.. then maybe... they'd have a case. even if it's in your contract that you 'must' worship it's not upholdable by law as far as i know.


Well I dont need the stress tbh and couldnt work there knowing I wasnt welcomed it isnt a normal working environment its prayer times etc etc, lol which I struggle with but snooze my way thru :lol:
Not all the staff are aware of the financial "theft" but are just as hypocritical, Currently I am in the middle of losing my son to a life of crime and not once have they asked me if i was ok, yet if someone who is gifted in there eyes or has something to offer them has a problem they go all out to help, they have volunteers who feed the locals yet the pastors refuse to eat with them down stairs they go off to flash lunches and I get the reimbursements.....................omg I am going on :scared:
well shitt basically yep church and religion is a disgrace but I doubt God feels any happier about it then we do, I doubt he is even there in these churches (not all ) I mean he isnt exactly welcome, his simple message has been twisted to one of utter pharisee. As for why I dont think he changes it yet, well there time will come.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Big hugs to Waterlily - you well deserve it my dear. I too have seen the riches of the Church. I mentioned before about the JW's - if anyone is in London - pop along to their place in Mill Hill - that will tell you all you need to know!

I have no problem what so ever with religion - any religion come to that. Infact I do think a lot of beliefs are good and it gives people guidance.

I do have a problem when vulnerable people are abused through religion and people try to brain wash me - no offence meant to any followers.


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

religion,the starter of most wars

and those beardy muslim blokes scare me:scared:


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

the kind of people i consider "god botherers" in other words. not people who try and do what is expected of them in 'gods' eyes like you (i assume) but what everyone other eejit out for themselves does and then moan to him when it doesn't work out.

like folk who pray to god to win the lottery, or to get that job they want or to do some other random useless thing, instead of praying for granny to get better, or that kid that got knocked down to be ok, or that ladies cat to re-appear safely so she'll not look so sad...

hope god gives your son a good old scare onto the right path for you  should he exist and all.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

skyblue said:


> religion,the starter of most wars
> 
> and those beardy muslim blokes scare me:scared:


just stick close to us scots, we'll heed em if they try anything


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

owieprone said:


> the kind of people i consider "god botherers" in other words. not people who try and do what is expected of them in 'gods' eyes like you (i assume) but what everyone other eejit out for themselves does and then moan to him when it doesn't work out.
> 
> like folk who pray to god to win the lottery, or to get that job they want or to do some other random useless thing, instead of praying for granny to get better, or that kid that got knocked down to be ok, or that ladies cat to re-appear safely so she'll not look so sad...
> 
> hope god gives your son a good old scare onto the right path for you  should *he exist and al*l.


:lol: :lol:

well I am expecting a suckful road tbh, but know it will be ok in the end.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

A bloke at work is a 'born again' Christian and he scares the living day lights out of me....I think he lies in wait for me.

Jumps out of corners and asks me to see the light....at the photocopier, getting into my car, this guy jumps out of corners and bushes ranting and raving about how i could be 'saved' etc etc....almost poop my pants I do sometimes!


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

gorgeous said:


> A bloke at work is a 'born again' Christian and he scares the living day lights out of me....I think he lies in wait for me.
> 
> Jumps out of corners and asks me to see the light....at the photocopier, getting into my car, this guy jumps out of corners and bushes ranting and raving about how i could be 'saved' etc etc....almost poop my pants I do sometimes!


haha I love your way with words :lol:


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

gorgeous said:


> Big hugs to Waterlily - you well deserve it my dear. I too have seen the riches of the Church. I mentioned before about the JW's - if anyone is in London - pop along to their place in Mill Hill - that will tell you all you need to know!
> 
> I have no problem what so ever with religion - any religion come to that. Infact I do think a lot of beliefs are good and it gives people guidance.
> 
> I do have a problem when vulnerable people are abused through religion and people try to brain wash me - no offence meant to any followers.


*Totally agree with you.
My personal experience with religion is they don't like people who question things. Well im a free thinker who likes answers and the truth and if anyone stands in the way of that, i lose all respect and start to doubt them. Religion is a way to control the masses. Sadly people assume you need to be part of an organized religion if you want to believe in God....Not so. *


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

gorgeous said:


> A bloke at work is a 'born again' Christian and he scares the living day lights out of me....I think he lies in wait for me.
> 
> Jumps out of corners and asks me to see the light....at the photocopier, getting into my car, this guy jumps out of corners and bushes ranting and raving about how i could be 'saved' etc etc....almost poop my pants I do sometimes!


next time he does it, press the photocopier hold the lid up and say
"god above, i do, I DO SEE THE LIGHT!!!"

he'll not bother you again.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

might work twice as good if you fall to your knees and assume the praying position.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> :lol: ok well I have seen the church from the inside out, I work doing the finances in one  and what I have seen has severely burnt me and I hate what it has become, I dont tell that to anyone but hell may as well say it here lol, I know exactly why people hate the church, but the actual faith the spiritual side of it is what I cling to, not the people, I have no trust in them at all and have seen enough to screw them over tbh, but wont. But on the topic of God I am very hurt when Its mocked, because it if wasnt for my own experiences I would have killed myself a long time ago, and hell not that long ago as well


That took a lot of courage. Im proud of you and I love you.

Just know that none of my comments in here were made in a mocking tone.
Everything Ive said has either been in a sense of question or frustration as the answers Ive seen the majority seem text book examples of blather rather than anything that is tangible.

I do have respect for other's faiths. Faith is never something I'd question a person over...but religion on the other hand. The cannons behind it I love to talk about and challenge...as much to shed light on them as to understand them.

So again, I'm honored you had the courage to stand up for your convictions in my thread even though the tide seemed decidedly against religion.

Shows just how much faith and love you do have.

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> You are surrounded by spirituality everyday. The definition of spirituality is that which relates to or affects the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things. Spirituality touches that part of you that is not dependant on material things or physical comforts.


So it has nothing to do with any deities at all but is just about feeling good?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> As I have said before, anyone who wholeheartedly follows any religion thinks they have it right. Lizward, if you had studied ALL religions and then decided on Christianity, I may have more respect for you. But your religion is merely part of where you were born and your experiences as a Western woman.


No it isn't. There are distinct differences between what I believe now and what I was taught to believe by my parents.

Liz


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Bandy said:


> That took a lot of courage. Im proud of you and I love you.
> 
> Just know that none of my comments in here were made in a mocking tone.
> Everything Ive said has either been in a sense of question or frustration as the answers Ive seen the majority seem text book examples of blather rather than anything that is tangible.
> ...


aw Thankyou  I love you too 
Its faith I defend not religion I just thought both were been attacked thats all.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> There is no logic in that statement whatsoever. In order for your statement to be true, the world would have to exist of merely one god and demons.
> 
> Just because you don't worship one god, does not mean you worship demons - you could worship anything from the latest maserati to Keanu Reeves


Well, there are angels too, but of course they shouldn't be worshipped either. And when you speak of worshipping Keanu Reeves, you don't mean the same thing I mean when I speak of worshipping God.

Liz


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

lizward said:


> No it isn't. There are distinct differences between what I believe now and what I was taught to believe by my parents.
> 
> Liz


i'd be surprised if that wasn't so  well said.

very few people will believe exactly what they were taugh and exactly what their parents believe, life changes your perspective and it's rather harsh and short sighted to paint all devouts with the same brush as zealots.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I think its been a pretty decent debate on balance  

Having the courage of your convictions and being able to stand up for your beliefs whatever they are are admirable qualities


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

i sometimes wish i had the faith and believe in a god and that i was being looked after. i think it must be a comfort and something to help when times are bad.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

mumof6 said:


> i sometimes wish i had the faith and believe in a god and that i was being looked after. i think it must be a comfort and something to help when times are bad.


dont' you have a dog? almost as good


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

owieprone said:


> dont' you have a dog? almost as good


better 

they have saved me from some pretty bad times too


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

owieprone said:


> so no self-creationism.. so who created god?


No-one created God, God just IS.



> and of course there is no other god so what is satan? he can't be worshipped as he is not a god, he is 'clearly' one of gods creations.


Correct, Satan is a fallen angel.



> that is not tolerance.


God is not tolerant.



> why did he torture that chap with the TWO wives into sacraficing his favourite child from his first wife to show that he was a true believer in god blah blah blah? surely he should already have known that this chap was a true believer, the chap certainly thought so before this. why would a good, nurturing caring god scare a child into thinking his father wanted him dead to the point that the knife was hovering over his body seconds from demise?


I guess he learned a good lesson, that his father loved God even more than he loved him. Hebrews 11.19 says that Abraham reasoned that God would raise Isaac from the dead, no doubt Abraham could have explained this to his son.



> omnipresent.. he is everywhere why the need for churches?


Because Christians are commanded to meet together for worship, and it's generally easier to do this in a building - especially in this country in the winter!



> why the need for priests, popes at all


Perhaps you should ask a Catholic.



> the bible isn't the 'truth' as we most see it, the bible is full of 'tales' of morality, how you should act, what you shouldn't do, why you should believe in something if it is only yourself, the tales of jesus andhis followers gives you someone of interest someone normal that is not a king to allow us the common person to be happy following in his footsteps of tolerance


Jesus wasn't tolerant, he drove the money changers out of the temple using whips, he had some very intolerant words to say to the Pharisees, and he said that all who did not believe in him were already condemned.



> that is how i see religion and that is why i have my own.
> i know what i believe and it isn't in any book, my god is my own


I'm afraid he is a god of your imagination, he doesn't really exist.

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> No it isn't. There are distinct differences between what I believe now and what I was taught to believe by my parents.
> 
> Liz


Have you studied all the religions and now believe in Christianity because you have weighed them all up and feel this is the only true religion?



mumof6 said:


> i sometimes wish i had the faith and believe in a god and that i was being looked after. i think it must be a comfort and something to help when times are bad.


Me too, I agree.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

lizward said:


> I'm afraid he is a god of your imagination, he doesn't really exist.
> 
> Liz


I think that is a shocking thing to say... you believe in your god, other people believe in theirs. It is not your place to tell people that someone elses god doesnt exist. Just rude.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

No-one created God, God just IS.
that's self-creation, which is impossible.

Correct, Satan is a fallen angel. 
Satan is PAN of the old religion, cloven hoofed, pipe playing, horned wee divil, no angel, but a satyr by all descriptions.

God is not tolerant. 
actually, he is if you look at what he does to help people, he tolerates quite alot of what his 'creations' go through, we are not tolerant cos we expect not to go through them. He simply allows us to endure and trusts that we will trust him. or so the story goes.


Because Christians are commanded to meet together for worship, and it's generally easier to do this in a building - especially in this country in the winter! 
commanded, controlled, crowd control, on mass brain washing, driven like sheep.

Perhaps you should ask a Catholic.
i meant all clerics of all faiths, now that we can all read there is no need for them to be so well 'looked after'.


Jesus wasn't tolerant, he drove the money changers out of the temple using whips, he had some very intolerant words to say to the Pharisees, and he said that all who did not believe in him were already condemned. 
nice fellow, why did we listen to him again?


I'm afraid he is a god of your imagination, he doesn't really exist.
neither does yours for all that we know coporeally, at least i admit it. he is MY god, i made him up to suit me as no one elses god suited me, alexander the great can invent a god, then by-gum i can to.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

Anyone who is interested there is a very interesting book called "the history of god" by Karen Armstrong - basically a history of the development of the monotheistic god in Islam, Christianity and Judaism; from pagen roots to now. Its very insightful and written by someone that is very well read in the scriptures as an ex-nun.

Also, on a lighter note "american gods" by Neil Gaiman which is a novel, but explores the concept of gods existing because they are worshipped - and so change with the times (God of the internet, anyone?)
:thumbup:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Savahl said:


> I think that is a shocking thing to say... you believe in your god, other people believe in theirs. It is not your place to tell people that someone elses god doesnt exist. Just rude.


Not rude, just a statement of the facts. Unless you seriously believe it to be a possibility that after so long, the only true god has chosen to reveal himself uniquely to someone here and to no-one else in the world?

Liz


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

lizward, just out of curiosity. do your children and husband share your religious beliefs?


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

lizward said:


> Not rude, just a statement of the facts. Unless you seriously believe it to be a possibility that after so long, the only true god has chosen to reveal himself uniquely to someone here and to no-one else in the world?
> 
> Liz


hear hear!

wait, erm.. yes YES he has! the one true god has spoken to me!

follow me! i am the new messiah! i am some prophet (insert favoured one here) reborn to give you new erm... **** to believe.

i hereby call my faith... sheepism.

meh.

she's not rude, it's her belief that i'm speaking complete and utter crap and that my gods made up. i can't exactly do her for slander/liable with no proof can i?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

owieprone said:


> that's self-creation, which is impossible.


Just because we have not seen anything else like it, does not make it impossible. I repeat, God just IS.



> Satan is PAN of the old religion, cloven hoofed, pipe playing, horned wee divil, no angel, but a satyr by all descriptions.


The Bible does not describe him as having cloven hooves or horns or as playing pipes.



> commanded, controlled, crowd control, on mass brain washing, driven like sheep.


You may speak of some, you don't speak of me.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gorgeous said:


> lizward, just out of curiosity. do your children and husband share your religious beliefs?


My husband does. I have no children.

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> Not rude, just a statement of the facts.


But it is not a fact to a Hindi. They believe there are many Gods, although I doubt none of them are rude enough to tell you that your god doesn't exist liz.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

lizward said:


> Not rude, just a statement of the facts. Unless you seriously believe it to be a possibility that after so long, the only true god has chosen to reveal himself uniquely to someone here and to no-one else in the world?
> 
> Liz


Who is to say there is only one god in that case....maybe there are millions of individual gods for people? Maybe god isnt a being, and is just a concept. 
How are we to know that, if there is one god, they dont reveal themselves to people differently. Who is to say the contradictions in the bible arent due to "god" revealing himself to people in different ways - and "He" accepts that people live differently and have different priorities.


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

lizward said:


> Not rude, just a statement of the facts. Unless you seriously believe it to be a possibility that after so long, the only true god has chosen to reveal himself uniquely to someone here and to no-one else in the world?
> 
> Liz


it is rude because you are mocking her beliefs, it doesnt matter of you believe them or not.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> But it is not a fact to a Hindi. They believe there are many Gods, although I doubt none of them are rude enough to tell you that your god doesn't exist liz.


Hindus are polytheistic and therefore have no problems adding a few more gods to their pantheon.

Liz


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

lizward said:


> I'm afraid he is a god of your imagination, he doesn't really exist.
> 
> Liz


I dont want to believe in a god that lets the innocent suffer while the bad get off scott free....

I would much rather believe in what I believe in and that no "god" would be so mean and believe that there for god doesnt exist.

That's my opinion on it anyway...and until "god" can say why he lets such bad things happen then I will never believe or worship him/her.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Savahl said:


> Who is to say there is only one god in that case....maybe there are millions of individual gods for people?


The Bible declares that there is only one God.



> Who is to say the contradictions in the bible arent due to "god" revealing himself to people in different ways - and "He" accepts that people live differently and have different priorities.


Which particular contradictions worry you?

Liz


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

we have it's called the big bang (there's a religion based on that i'm sure of it), which god never deigned to write to us about, much like the dinos and neanderthals and pangaea and amoebas.
god cant be 'just is' something has to have happened to create him from something,something must have been there before to create it, you can't bake a cake without breaking some eggs, big bang, bit of mixing, heat earth and the building blocks for its inhabitants pop out.. or something like that.

we do, we describe him like that, films, books, pictures from years back show him as pan, there are documented ye-much-olde-crap that intones that pan was at his hay-day when god was heir-apparent.
besides the bible doesn't describe much, it's not detailed in that way, it doesn't describe anyone/thing to a t. 
where did the descriptin of jesus come from so that we could have an idol to hang up in our churches to worship?
i forget where the passage in the bible says, and jesus being of pearly white skin (having shyed from the sun and most likely genetics, much like elizabeth taylors, cleopatra)) and long flowing locks with an awesome beard, did tread up on the land in his toga and sandles with his blue eyes piercing the faces of the native ******* around him.


everyone is a sheep in some respect, i'm a sheep, i like heavy metal, i like fast cars, i like particular things cos there's an adverts showing me them, everyone is influenced by something in their life to make them a sheep, mind controlled, brainwashed. no one is immune. it's what we do with that brainwashing that counts. do we blindly follow or do we follow and ask questions before, during and after?


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> But it is not a fact to a Hindi. They believe there are many Gods, although I doubt none of them are rude enough to tell you that your god doesn't exist liz.


Excellent post.

THIS is my biggest problem with RELIGION.
That kind of thinking is what has killed so many people over the centuries and still goes on today.

Those that dogmatically think their god is the true god, up to and including telling others of a different faith, even though they believe in the SAME GOD..ie the JEWS and LIZ saying they are wrong, show the clear and what should be shameful HYPOCRISY that exists.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

mumof6 said:


> it is rude because you are mocking her beliefs, it doesnt matter of you believe them or not.


I agree mate, even if we disagree there should be more sensitivity, on both sides, and I have my belief but wont cut others down for not having them, but *religion* I have no time for, the way people follow law and readings yet not living the *real *walk with compassion and forgiveness, instead they judge and condemn, and thats sad cos it puts us all in the same box.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

lizward said:


> The Bible declares that there is only one God.
> 
> Which particular contradictions worry you?
> 
> Liz


maybe the god i believe in IS the same god, but my intepretation of him from what i've read in his biography?


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

lizward said:


> My husband does. I have no children.
> 
> Liz


Thanks for answering.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Savahl said:


> Anyone who is interested there is a very interesting book called "the history of god" by Karen Armstrong - basically a history of the development of the monotheistic god in Islam, Christianity and Judaism; from pagen roots to now. Its very insightful and written by someone that is very well read in the scriptures as an ex-nun.
> 
> Also, on a lighter note "american gods" by Neil Gaiman which is a novel, but explores the concept of gods existing because they are worshipped - and so change with the times (God of the internet, anyone?)
> :thumbup:


the god delusion by dawkins is also pretty awesome, and the pocket guide for athiests (or similar title i forget the exact wording) by some other dude is good, heavy going, but good.

even devouts should read dawkins, not to belittle them but to give them an insight in to why others don't believe, why non-believers have such a problem with religion.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

contridictions dont worry me, as I am not of faith. Nor will I ever be. I have religious friends, I used to attend church and attecnded a church school - i have made my decision...

But some contridictions...Luke says that jesus was born in a stable. Matthew that it was in a house (where they lived?)

Timothy says Eve is to blame for original sin, Romans say Adam.

etc

Maybe i just live by:
Proverbs 14:15
The simple believes every word: but the prudent man lookes well to his going.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

owieprone said:


> the god delusion by dawkins is also pretty awesome, and the pocket guide for athiests (or similar title i forget the exact wording) by some other dude is good, heavy going, but good.
> 
> even devouts should read dawkins, not to belittle them but to give them an insight in to why others don't believe, why non-believers have such a problem with religion.


I didnt like the god delusions to be honest...i find him too heavy handed in his writing. I think he is actually a bit too preachy in the other extreme...

I dont want to be told what to believe, Dawkins tells me not to believe outright... Religious groups tell me to believe outright. I prefer to be given the information and make my own mind up lol


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Savahl said:


> Maybe i just live by:
> Proverbs 14:15
> The simple believes every word: but the prudent man lookes well to his going.


Love that :thumbup:


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

I think we should all read Shakespeare. Some of the stuff he wrote is pure genius and he understood humans so well.

One of my favourite quotes ever is by Shakespeare

'Every step a human being takes is for himself'


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Savahl said:


> I didnt like the god delusions to be honest...i find him too heavy handed in his writing. I think he is actually a bit too preachy in the other extreme...
> 
> I dont want to be told what to believe, Dawkins tells me not to believe outright... Religious groups tell me to believe outright. I prefer to be given the information and make my own mind up lol


yeah but if you get past his preaching lol, then his points are pretty thought provoking and well reasoned and give good insight into where things were original concieved from (if you don't believe that which ever god he's extinguishing exists).


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Savahl said:


> contridictions dont worry me, as I am not of faith. Nor will I ever be. I have religious friends, I used to attend church and attecnded a church school - i have made my decision...
> 
> But some contridictions...Luke says that jesus was born in a stable. Matthew that it was in a house (where they lived?)
> 
> ...


i blame the snake myself.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Savahl said:


> contridictions dont worry me, as I am not of faith. Nor will I ever be. I have religious friends, I used to attend church and attecnded a church school - i have made my decision...
> 
> But some contridictions...Luke says that jesus was born in a stable. Matthew that it was in a house (where they lived?)
> 
> ...


Reps coming for that bit
:thumbup:


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

owieprone said:


> i blame the snake myself.


Damn dirty snake!

re: I did read the god delusions, his attitude just got my back up lol


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Savahl said:


> Damn dirty snake!
> 
> re: I did read the god delusions, his attitude just got my back up lol


he does come across as extremely self important etc but i think he's amusing, compared to someone who shall remain unnamed (not a forum member) he's actually pretty tame!

telling you tho, if it wasn't for that snake, all would be well! and here as usual us women get the blame.. now who was it that wrote the good book? oh yes....


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

owieprone said:


> he does come across as extremely self important etc but i think he's amusing, compared to someone who shall remain unnamed (not a forum member) he's actually pretty tame!
> 
> telling you tho, if it wasn't for that snake, all would be well! and here as usual us women get the blame.. now who was it that wrote the good book? oh yes....


I bet it was a woman that spell checked it though


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Savahl said:


> I bet it was a woman that spell checked it though


:scared: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## reido (Dec 4, 2010)

after losing my sister on her 10th birthday all religion can go take a running fuc*ing jump for all i care.

why is it that when some thing good happens ''its gods work'' but when any disaster or some thing bad happens then god just so happens to ''work in mysterious ways''. how patronising is that, and then you get the cheeky gits knocking on your door trying to push it down your throat.


the world would be a much better place without any of it.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

reido said:


> after losing my sister on her 10th birthday all religion can go take a running fuc*ing jump for all i care.
> 
> why is it that when some thing good happens ''its gods work'' but when any disaster or some thing bad happens then god just so happens to ''work in mysterious ways''. how patronising is that, and then you get the cheeky gits knocking on your door trying to push it down your throat.
> 
> the world would be a much better place without any of it.


am sorry about your sister mate xx  I cant explain why it happens, wish I could. I guess for me its just I believe theres a purpose for everything bad or good whether we see it or not, and thats hard to swallow when it hits us.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

reido said:


> after losing my sister on her 10th birthday all religion can go take a running fuc*ing jump for all i care.
> 
> why is it that when some thing good happens ''its gods work'' but when any disaster or some thing bad happens then god just so happens to ''work in mysterious ways''. how patronising is that, and then you get the cheeky gits knocking on your door trying to push it down your throat.
> 
> the world would be a much better place without any of it.


*With respect,what has religion got to do with the loss of your sister?
I've lost loved ones but i don't blame god or any religion.*


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

reido said:


> after losing my sister on her 10th birthday all religion can go take a running fuc*ing jump for all i care.
> 
> why is it that when some thing good happens ''its gods work'' but when any disaster or some thing bad happens then god just so happens to ''work in mysterious ways''. how patronising is that, and then you get the cheeky gits knocking on your door trying to push it down your throat.
> 
> the world would be a much better place without any of it.


I lost my sister, because I was so young my mum told me my sister was on holiday. As soon as I was old enough my mum told me what really happened and tbh after that day I stopped believing any god or greater power existed.

Then for my mum to go through that and then when my brother was born (10 years later) to be autistic and not able to speak or use the toilet and end up abused by a close family friend was the straw that broke the back.

And to be told over and over again its because god has a greater use for my sister makes me angry because if god exists he had no right to take her from us nor make my little brother have the life he has had.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *With respect,what has religion got to do with the loss of your sister?
> I've lost loved ones but i don't blame god or any religion.*


If god exists and your all gods children and so on then it does have alot to do with it. I believe until all the crap that happened happened and its anger more than anything that children...the innocent children die. What god would take a childs life?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

We all have to die and cant use that to not believe, hell if we were all imortal then would it be easier ? You either believe or you dont. And losing someone is hard I have lost a few too but that wont change my faith if it did then my faith wasnt there in the first place, it does make ya angry but not make it less real to me.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> We all have to die and cant use that to not believe, hell if we were all imortal then would it be easier ? You either believe or you dont. And losing someone is hard I have lost a few too but that wont change my faith if it did then my faith wasnt there in the first place, it does make ya angry but not make it less real to me.


I understand everyone dies....I can get to grips with that.
Though I will never understand why a child has to die but a rapist lives.

But innocent children suffering like my little brother has done?
Abused by someone close to him, unable to talk to tell us.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

owieprone said:


> we have it's called the big bang (there's a religion based on that i'm sure of it)


A religion based on it? Not that I've heard of.



> god cant be 'just is' something has to have happened to create him from something,something must have been there before to create it


So where did the ingredients for the Big bang come from?



> we do, we describe him like that, films, books, pictures from years back show him as pan


But the Bible does not.



> where did the descriptin of jesus come from so that we could have an idol to hang up in our churches to worship?


I don't have an idol in my church!!



> i forget where the passage in the bible says, and jesus being of pearly white skin (having shyed from the sun and most likely genetics, much like elizabeth taylors, cleopatra)) and long flowing locks with an awesome beard, did tread up on the land in his toga and sandles with his blue eyes piercing the faces of the native ******* around him.


I have absolutely no idea where you got this from but it certainly doesn't come from the Bible.

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Hindus are polytheistic and therefore have no problems adding a few more gods to their pantheon.
> 
> Liz


Which is a much nicer state of affairs than trying to pretend there is only one god.


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## reido (Dec 4, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *With respect,what has religion got to do with the loss of your sister?
> I've lost loved ones but i don't blame god or any religion.*


if god made us all then why should an innocent child die over a junkie that abuses himself or a peado or rapist that abuses innocent people?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I understand everyone dies....I can get to grips with that.
> Though I will never understand why a child has to die but a rapist lives.
> 
> But innocent children suffering like my little brother has done?
> Abused by someone close to him, unable to talk to tell us.


aw yeah I know, and never meant to come across as if you had to feel the same, was a crap way I guess for me to say how I felt thru my own grief  I cant explain any of that and I do understand what you mean xx


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Savahl said:


> But some contridictions...Luke says that jesus was born in a stable. Matthew that it was in a house (where they lived?)


No contradiction here whatsoever (in fact Luke doesn't use the word stable at all but your basic point is correct). Matthew tells of the visit of the wise men which was some months after the birth of Jesus. They were living in a proper house in Bethlehem by then.



> Timothy says Eve is to blame for original sin, Romans say Adam.


I see no contradiction here. In 1 Timothy, Paul is addressing his reasons for why women should not teach in the church. In Romans he is dealing with the federal headship of Adam and of Christ.

Liz


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> aw yeah I know, and never meant to come across as if you had to feel the same, was a crap way I guess for me to say how I felt thru my own grief  I cant explain any of that and I do understand what you mean xx


I understand what you mean, I was raised very religious by my grandparents. Church, praying before meals, bed, even got a gold plated bible for my christening.

But the hand my family not just my brother and sister was delt has changed my mind completely.

Death, I can understand.

But the abuse my brother suffered, the guy got off and is walking round the streets to do it to another child. He already abused 4 children 2 had learning problems and couldnt talk and the other 2 were his own children who were to young to tell their mum what was happening.

Its just the injustice of it all really....

I understand alot of people believe in god..I have a church directly across from my house which every sunday has our street packed, I dont have problems with people believing but I dont believe.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> No contradiction here whatsoever (in fact Luke doesn't use the word stable at all but your basic point is correct). Matthew tells of the visit of the wise men which was some months after the birth of Jesus. They were living in a proper house in Bethlehem by then.
> Liz


See, for me, the whole nativity thing is nothing but a pretty story. There are four gospels, all suppoed to be telling the same story. But they don't.

First of all, the virgin birth is mentioned in Matthew and Luke, but not Mark and John. The manger, angels, and shepherds are mentioned in Luke only. The wise men are mentioned in Matthew only and did not visit the child in the manger.

Two things shout out at me from this:

1. Why do christian churches - nay, the whole religion - try to fool people into believing that it all happened at the same time? (Look at any nativity scene in any church - manger, shepherds, kings. Listen to the carols)

2. If it is a true story, why do all four gospels not tell the same story?


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

There are more than four gospels but the others were mysteriously hidden away many years ago.The Vatican has enormous amounts of literature and records that don't see the light of day.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

poohdog said:


> There are more than four gospels but the others were mysteriously hidden away many years ago.The Vatican has enormous amounts of literature and records that don't see the light of day.


Because it doesn't fit in with the curent made-made teachings one presumes? Such as the deuterocanonical apochrypha?

The Apocrypha Index


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

lizward said:


> That is a common misconception. The New Testament was virtually complete by the end of the first century. That's not very long, it's like people talking today about the second world war. Not nearly enough time for myths to develop.
> 
> Liz


I still think it's a fairy story, nice one I must admit, but still a story made by people for their own ends.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> 1. Why do christian churches - nay, the whole religion - try to fool people into believing that it all happened at the same time? (Look at any nativity scene in any church - manger, shepherds, kings. Listen to the carols)


Because they don't know the Bible. This is one of my hobby horses and you will not get any argument from me against your point here, except that I don't think "fooling" comes into it (the feast of Epiphany is nearly two weeks after Christmas)



> 2. If it is a true story, why do all four gospels not tell the same story?


Actually there are very few things that are told by all four Gospels. Each writer was telling the story from his own point of view, and based on his own research.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

poohdog said:


> There are more than four gospels but the others were mysteriously hidden away many years ago.


That is because they did not pass the test of having been written by one of the apostles or their immediate circle.  They never were accepted. Most of them date from much later than the canonical Gospels anyway.

Liz


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

blade100 said:


> thats it i had enough of this thread yet again it looks like someone has stepped in to take the mickey.
> 
> what ever u believe in all that matters is it makes you happy,i know what i believe is comforting and some day we will ALL know what is out there.
> 
> ...


Just becouse someone as a different opinion doe'snt mean they are taking the micky.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lizward 
That is a common misconception. The New Testament was virtually complete by the end of the first century. That's not very long, it's like people talking today about the second world war. Not nearly enough time for myths to develop.

Liz 


Can't really compare the two...The Wars DID Happen.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> Can't really compare the two...The Wars DID Happen.


Yes, and if you spoke now to someone who was in the second world war, you wouldn't immediately assume they had got it all wrong because it was 70 years ago, would you?

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> Each writer was telling the story from his own point of view


well doesn't that just say it all?


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> Yes, and if you spoke now to someone who was in the second world war, you wouldn't immediately assume they had got it all wrong because it was 70 years ago, would you?
> 
> Liz


Even if that was a fair comparison...
If I asked my nan to write down a full account of the war - what happened and where (how did it start, why, who said what, what other factors were involved), im pretty sure he would get some stuff wrong.
And it would probably different to if i asked a german pensioner of a similar age.

We know what happened because there are many many accounts of what happened to verify details. There are photographs. Official documents. Media evidence. Not just a handful of accounts that say slightly different things.

Memories are warped, and there will be huge bits that will be what she was told rather than the first person account. The same goes for the bible ; the authors wernt witnesses to the events, nor were they written at the time. So its reasonable to believe that they would get things wrong - same as its reasonable to believe my nan would get things wrong about the war.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

reido said:


> if god made us all then why should an innocent child die over a junkie that abuses himself or a peado or rapist that abuses innocent people?


*I don't pretend to have all the answers or even half of them.But i have never thought life was fair anyway.But as i said i wouldn't blame god,sh*t happens and i accept that.*


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm a Christian and yes I do believe in most of it. If nothing else the old testament is better than a soap opera at times don't believe me read David and Bathsheba. Of course details are wrong it was oral history for a long time before it was written down ever play chinese whispers? I will listen to other beliefs though and while I don't believe in them if they're not hurting anyone then I don't see the problem with people practising them. I have a good friend does chaos magic and it's fascinating to hear about.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

snoopydo said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by lizward
> That is a common misconception. The New Testament was virtually complete by the end of the first century. That's not very long, it's like people talking today about the second world war. Not nearly enough time for myths to develop.
> 
> ...


But myths are abounding about the second world war already - what about the BNP insisiting the holocaust did not happen? Added to that, everyone's stories are diferent. My husband is from Germany - you should hear how his family's versions of the dam busters (to name but one event) differ greatly from our version. Their myths about the war are different from our myths.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> well doesn't that just say it all?


Um, that is what biographers and news reporters do today, isn't it?

If we had four accounts that were all the same, you'd all say they were copied from one source. As it is, we have four very different accounts from four very different sources.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> But myths are abounding about the second world war already - what about the BNP insisiting the holocaust did not happen? Added to that, everyone's stories are diferent. My husband is from Germany - you should hear how his family's versions of the dam busters (to name but one event) differ greatly from our version. Their myths about the war are different from our myths.


Of course the stories are different, they are told from a different perspective. Does anyone dispute that the bombers went in on a low flying raid using special bombs and ruptured the dams? Holocaust deniers are a vile minority motivated solely by hatred of Jews, but I doubt if you will find anyone even among them who seriously thinks that the Jews were not taken first into ghettos and then into concentration camps.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Savahl said:


> Even if that was a fair comparison...
> If I asked my nan to write down a full account of the war - what happened and where (how did it start, why, who said what, what other factors were involved), im pretty sure he would get some stuff wrong.
> And it would probably different to if i asked a german pensioner of a similar age.


Do you think that if you asked four people they would all get the same thing wrong to such an extent that their memories would be completely invalid to a historian (assuming of course that they were corpus mentis in the first place?) Would they start inventing flying saucers dropping off martians, for example, rather than Germans dropping bombs? Of course not. People's memories are Primary sources for historians - very valuable for research.

Four Gospel writers claimed that Christ rose from the dead. The record of the preaching in Acts shows that at least four others claimed the samke thing. Paul added many other witnesses in 1 Cor 15. The existence and survival of the early church gives many many more witnesses. In the face of terrible persecution, the Christian church not only survived but grew because of this belief that Christ rose from the dead. The idea that they were all deceived, and that the deception started just 6 weeks after the crucifixion, is simply untenable.

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> That is because they did not pass the test of having been written by one of the apostles or their immediate circle. They never were accepted. Most of them date from much later than the canonical Gospels anyway.
> 
> Liz


So basically, some versions fit with man's idea of what the religion should be and some didn't?



lizward said:


> Because they don't know the Bible. This is one of my hobby horses and you will not get any argument from me against your point here, except that I don't think "fooling" comes into it (the feast of Epiphany is nearly two weeks after Christmas)


The CHURCHES don't know the bible?!!!!  :scared:  And these places are supposed to be teaching/leading the faith?

Regular church goers will know what ephiphany is supposed to be celebrating. But Christmas is the one time of the year when the church draws people in who are not normally church goers - all sorts of people go to carol services. What an opportunity to bring them into the faith. But instead of that, they are met with a nativity scene which clearly depicts shepherds and wise men in the stable together - ie it is leading people to think it all happened at the same time. It does make a pretty tableau - but it is definitely fooling people.



lizward said:


> Actually there are very few things that are told by all four Gospels. Each writer was telling the story from his own point of view, and based on his own research.
> Liz


In other words, you are finally admitting that the bible is the word of man, not the word of God.

So, basically, you're saying Christianity is a faith based on a book that is written by human beings, all of whom have a different version to tell, and that man has rejected the versions that do not fit in with his general idea of what the faith should contain. Furthermore, its leaders have not read the bible properly anyway, and depict scenes from it that are inaccurate.

Some religion, eh?

:scared: :scared: :scared:


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Why do people take all these stories as fact because they have been passed down by priests and lay preachers for centuries.I don't believe anything I'm told without seeing proof myself. Peasants over the centuries have taken in anything they are told.

There is a cave type grotto I think in Bethlehem that is supposedly on the site of JCs birthplace.Many years ago on one of these Holy land documentaries,they showed a ceremony at this place that is enacted each year.

The head honcho in his fancy outfit is shown entering the grotto with a candle.Five minutes later he emerges and the candle is miraculously lit...whereupon the gathered crowd prostate themselves at the sight of this miracle.

Personally I'd like to say 'Assume the position' to the priest and find out where he's hid the lighter.
But the gathered crowd believe this rubbish,the same as they've taken in all the stuff these priests have waffled on about for years.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't pretend to have all the answers or even half of them.But i have never thought life was fair anyway.But as i said i wouldn't blame god,sh*t happens and i accept that.*


But if he was the loving, omnipotent god he is supposed to be, why doesn't he intervene to stop a child being raped and murdered, or to stop millions of children starving to death? I think that's what most people can't get their heads around. I can accept that sh*t happens; I can even accept that it happens because someone human causes it to happen and so we should not blame god when it does. But I have great difficulty in accepting that a loving omnipotent god would see such horrific things happen and not intervene to stop it happening.

I also have great difficulty in accepting that if the perpetrator is a christian and then "repents", his soul will be welcomed into heaven by god, but if the victim is, for example, a small child whose parents have not had them christened, then god would reject their soul and not allow them into heaven.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> So basically, some versions fit with man's idea of what the religion should be and some didn't?


No. Some accounts were very obviously written by those with no connection with the apostles, mainly those with a gnostic point of view to support. These accounts were rejected for good reason, they were a lot of rubbish.



> The CHURCHES don't know the bible?!!!!  :scared:  And these places are supposed to be teaching/leading the faith?


The average level of Bible knowledge in churches is atrocious, I agree entirely.



> Regular church goers will know what ephiphany is supposed to be celebrating. But Christmas is the one time of the year when the church draws people in who are not normally church goers - all sorts of people go to carol services. What an opportunity to bring them into the faith. But instead of that, they are met with a nativity scene which clearly depicts shepherds and wise men in the stable together - ie it is leading people to think it all happened at the same time. It does make a pretty tableau - but it is definitely fooling people.


Yes I agree, whether it is a major issue or not is another matter. I debunk it at every opportunity (it's epiphany today and I am speaking to a ladies group about it, for example)



> In other words, you are finally admitting that the bible is the word of man, not the word of God.


Where did you get that from? I said no such thing!



> So, basically, you're saying Christianity is a faith based on a book that is written by human beings, all of whom have a different version to tell, and that man has rejected the versions that do not fit in with his general idea of what the faith should contain.


Christians (well, the great majority) do not believe the Bible was dictated by God. It is inspired and preserved by God, there is a difference. That human research was involved is very clear from the Bible itself. Why should it surprise anyone that both God and man were involved, when Christ himself was both Gopd and man?



> Furthermore, its leaders have not read the bible properly anyway, and depict scenes from it that are inaccurate.


Some of its leaders who are unworthy of the name, yes. Fortunately there are others who know it very well, even (gasp!) one or two who know it better than I do. The visible church is not at all the same thing as the true church, unfortunately.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

poohdog said:


> Why do people take all these stories as fact because they have been passed down by priests and lay preachers for centuries.I don't believe anything I'm told without seeing proof myself.


The proof is right there in the Bible which is very readily available.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> if the victim is, for example, a small child whose parents have not had them christened, then god would reject their soul and not allow them into heaven.


I don't know of any church that teaches this, you are rather out of date.

Liz


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> But if he was the loving, omnipotent god he is supposed to be, why doesn't he intervene to stop a child being raped and murdered, or to stop millions of children starving to death? I think that's what most people can't get their heads around. I can accept that sh*t happens; I can even accept that it happens because someone human causes it to happen and so we should not blame god when it does. But I have great difficulty in accepting that a loving omnipotent god would see such horrific things happen and not intervene to stop it happening.
> 
> I also have great difficulty in accepting that if the perpetrator is a christian and then "repents", his soul will be welcomed into heaven by god, but if the victim is, for example, a small child whose parents have not had them christened, then god would reject their soul and not allow them into heaven.


*As i understand it,years ago god appointed kings to rule,but then mankind thought they could better so god said ok you can have it your way.Now god doesn't get involved.Now looking at it like that i can see where he is coming from.BUT i do find it hard to sit back and watch some scum literaly get away with murder but on the other hand some innocent soul suffers.*


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> The proof is right there in the Bible which is very readily available.
> 
> Liz


It's a book Liz...written by men, not a deity.And with a load of translation cock ups in it too.

I think you've done well on here with all the flak aimed at you.You are obviously convinced yourself,but please don't talk about 'facts'

None of it is fact...just what you've convinced yourself is the truth.You're not alone I've heard people just like you over the years...dozens of 'em.
If your faith gives you comfort...fine,but don't try to tell everybody yours is the only true faith,when they in turn are convinced theirs is.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

poohdog said:


> It's a book Liz...written by men, not a deity.And with a load of translation cock ups in it too.
> 
> I think you've done well on here with all the flak aimed at you.You are obviously convinced yourself,but please don't talk about 'facts'
> 
> ...


rep mate  I agree with most of what Liz has said, but we all hold our own faith firm and we all see ours as the one true one, and it is a comfort a personal one.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

poohdog said:


> It's a book Liz...written by men, not a deity.And with a load of translation cock ups in it too.


You're a long way behind the times if you think there are translation issues with the Bible!

Liz


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Originally Posted by Spellweaver 
So basically, some versions fit with man's idea of what the religion should be and some didn't?

Liz......
*No. Some accounts were very obviously written by those with no connection with the apostles, mainly those with a gnostic point of view to support. These accounts were rejected for good reason, they were a lot of rubbish. *

Quote:
The CHURCHES don't know the bible?!!!! And these places are supposed to be teaching/leading the faith?

*The average level of Bible knowledge in churches is atrocious, I agree entirely. *

Quote:Liz..
Regular church goers will know what ephiphany is supposed to be celebrating. But Christmas is the one time of the year when the church draws people in who are not normally church goers - all sorts of people go to carol services. What an opportunity to bring them into the faith.* But instead of that, they are met with a nativity scene which clearly depicts shepherds and wise men in the stable together - ie it is leading people to think it all happened at the same time. It does make a pretty tableau - but it is definitely fooling people.*

Yes I agree, whether it is a major issue or not is another matter. I debunk it at every opportunity (it's epiphany today and I am speaking to a ladies group about it, for example)

Quote:
In other words, you are finally admitting that the bible is the word of man, not the word of God.

Where did you get that from? I said no such thing!

Quote:
So, basically, you're saying Christianity is a faith based on a book that is written by human beings, all of whom have a different version to tell, and that man has rejected the versions that do not fit in with his general idea of what the faith should contain.

Christians (well, the great majority) do not believe the Bible was dictated by God. It is inspired and preserved by God, there is a difference. That human research was involved is very clear from the Bible itself. Why should it surprise anyone that both God and man were involved, when Christ himself was both Gopd and man?

Quote:
Furthermore, its leaders have not read the bible properly anyway, and depict scenes from it that are inaccurate.

Some of its leaders who are unworthy of the name, yes. Fortunately there are others who know it very well, even (gasp!) one or two who know it better than I do. The visible church is not at all the same thing as the true church, unfortunately.

Liz

***************************

Liz I've Highlighted some of your Replie's.....So basically you are agreeing to what some us have already Said.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> Originally Posted by Spellweaver
> So basically, some versions fit with man's idea of what the religion should be and some didn't?
> 
> Liz......
> ...


just cos your posts are confusing, if ya need to quote peeps individually, at the bottom of there post ya click the middle paper and it will go red, then ya do that to each post ya want to reply to and then press reply and type to each one after the quote bits :thumbup: just helping :arf:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> Liz I've Highlighted some of your Replie's.....So basically you are agreeing to what some us have already Said.


I don't think you've read it very carefully, have you.

By the way, could you work out how to do quotes? It's a bit confusing when you just repeat it all. Every time you quote, you type in [ QUOTE] and when you want to close the quote, you type in [ /QUOTE] - but without the spaces.

Liz


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

lizward said:


> I don't think you've read it very carefully, have you.
> 
> By the way, could you work out how to do quotes? It's a bit confusing when you just repeat it all. Every time you quote, you type in [ QUOTE] and when you want to close the quote, you type in [ /QUOTE] - but without the spaces.
> 
> Liz


another way easier for some peeps is to highlight the bit you want to quote in your preview post bit and then press the quote icon above next to the envelope :thumbup:


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

lizward said:


> A religion based on it? Not that I've heard of.
> 
> So where did the ingredients for the Big bang come from?
> 
> ...


i dunno either, i'm sure there is... it's called something like science? lmao only kidding, there must be some religion that takes it into account, like scientology takes aliens into account lol. there'll be a cult somewhere that loves bigbang theory.

i dunno where the ingredients for the big bang came from i wasn't around then, surprisingly enough.

liz re-read my post, i did say that there is NOTHING in the bible describing such.

i dunno what's in your church mate but if there is a jesus then it is an idol, as we are supposed to worship god, not jesus, his image is inconsequential so why bother having a statue celebrating him?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

lizward said:


> The proof is right there in the Bible which is very readily available.
> 
> Liz


Do you believe every word written in it.??????????????????????


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

quote liz: Where did you get that from? I said no such thing!

(i did do that right, but for some reason it didn't put it on my post correctly, possibly what happened with the other person you berated for not quoting 'properly')

yes you did, you said each story was from a different writers perspective, if there is only 1 god there is only 1 writer and therefore only one perspective.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

owieprone said:


> liz re-read my post, i did say that there is NOTHING in the bible describing such.


Describing the big bang? Why would you expect there to be??



> i dunno what's in your church mate but if there is a jesus then it is an idol, as we are supposed to worship god, not jesus, his image is inconsequential so why bother having a statue celebrating him?


You seem to think all churches are Catholic or High Anglican. I repeat, my church does not use statues or images. Very few protestant churches do!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> Do you believe every word written in it.??????????????????????


As long as it is understood that we take genre and different viewpoints into account, the answer is yes.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

owieprone said:


> yes you did, you said each story was from a different writers perspective, if there is only 1 god there is only 1 writer and therefore only one perspective.


You are making the mistake of assuming that Christians believe the Bible was dictated by God. The vast majority of us do not believe that.

Liz


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Just as an aside from the main discussion what views do people have on their children following their beliefs ??

My son attends a CofE school with a heavy emphasis on its religion.

He attends church with the school and the local vicar visits regularly, he also enjoys going to church with my Mum (as does my 4 year old)

I have no issue with this and hope my children find their own path. I would support any decisions they made for themselves in this area despite my own opinions and the fact i have chosen not to have them Christened (i dont do hypocrisy)

I have noticed though that families who have a strong attatchment to a particular religion seem to insist their children hold the same beliefs/attend their church etc, am i wrong or is that generally the case ??


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> You are making the mistake of assuming that Christians believe the Bible was dictated by God. The vast majority of us do not believe that.
> 
> Liz


Way way back in this thread you said that you believed that the bible was the word of god


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Way way back in this thread you said that you believed that the bible was the word of god


YEP, i'm confused too.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Way way back in this thread you said that you believed that the bible was the word of god


The word of God does not mean "dictated by God", it means inspired by God.

Liz


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

lizward said:


> The word of God does not mean "dictated by God", it means inspired by God.
> 
> Liz


To be fair the its all chinese whispers.

Several people writing what they THINK god may have said.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

lizward said:


> The word of God does not mean "dictated by God", it means inspired by God.
> 
> Liz


No thats just not how our language works is it ?? If you say something is "the word" of someone then i think it is fair of people to assume you mean its their words ??

Being inspired by something and compelled to write about it is not the same.


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## Maleko (Nov 9, 2010)

harley bear said:


> To be fair the its all chinese whispers.
> 
> Several people writing what they THINK god may have said.


Have you read the bible? Do you know what's in it and where its come from?

Its scripture that has been collected over the space of many years and by different people, then when its put in chronological order it shows it ties in perfectly with prophecies early on, that come true later on.

Not a book written by some people who write what they think God has told them to write.

I'm not a religious person at all, can't stand religion, but I do believe in The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ who is my saviour, he who guides me.
Until you truly experience the power and presence of God yourself, you will never know yourself.
It's a choice, a choice we all have. I'm glad of the choice I made 

I don't tend to get involved with these discussions, as at the end of the day its like banding your head against a brick wall. :lol:
Also it causes more friction than anything else


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> No thats just not how our language works is it ?? If you say something is "the word" of someone then i think it is fair of people to assume you mean its their words ??


It means it has the authority of God, it is the way God speaks to us. It doesn't mean he dictated it. This is fairly standard Christian belief.

Liz


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Maleko said:


> Have you read the bible? Do you know what's in it and where its come from?
> 
> Its scripture that has been collected over the space of many years and by different people, then when its put in chronological order it shows it ties in perfectly with prophecies early on, that come true later on.
> 
> ...


well said :thumbup:


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## RetroLemons (Nov 11, 2010)

I never fully understand these discussions. God can neither be proven or dis-proven so it's your personal opinion whether you believe or not.

To me it's pointless trying to explain each side to the other as at the end of the day it's down to faith, you either have it or you don't. And your opinion is only likely to change depending on your own experiences..

Myself, I'm not religious but I won't go banging on about it because these discussions always go around in circles :lol:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RetroLemons said:


> I never fully understand these discussions. God can neither be proven or dis-proven so it's your personal opinion whether you believe or not.
> 
> To me it's pointless trying to explain each side to the other as at the end of the day it's down to faith, you either have it or you don't. And your opinion is only likely to change depending on your own experiences..
> 
> Myself, I'm not religious but I won't go banging on about it because these discussions always go around in circles :lol:


I totally agree :thumbup:


----------



## Carpe Diem (Dec 31, 2010)

RetroLemons said:


> I never fully understand these discussions. God can neither be proven or dis-proven so it's your personal opinion whether you believe or not.
> 
> To me it's pointless trying to explain each side to the other as at the end of the day it's down to faith, you either have it or you don't. And your opinion is only likely to change depending on your own experiences..
> 
> Myself, I'm not religious but I won't go banging on about it because these discussions always go around in circles :lol:


Couldn't have said it better myself :thumbup:


----------



## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

I'm funny about religion not quite sure what I believe tbh 

I belong to another forum and it's predominantly Americans and the majority of them are highly religious shoving it down your throat I can't deal with that you get threads asking for people to pray for their dogs etc etc and i cannot deal with it I made a comment about their being diff religions other than Christianity and wow you'd think I'd called everyone the word no woman likes haha

So then I said ok so I don't appreciate you choking me with your prayers and lord is our saviour blah blah so kinda asked how they would feel if someone who worshipped Satan came on and started going on and on they got rather narky one particular lady hasn't spoken to me since and starts arguments with me which I ignore!!

Anyway I am a firm believer in everyone believe what they want but don't agree on peoples religious views being forced on others

Very brave thread btw I always thought religion and politics was an awkward subject


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

RetroLemons said:


> I never fully understand these discussions. God can neither be proven or dis-proven so it's your personal opinion whether you believe or not.
> 
> To me it's pointless trying to explain each side to the other as at the end of the day it's down to faith, you either have it or you don't. And your opinion is only likely to change depending on your own experiences..
> 
> Myself, I'm not religious but I won't go banging on about it because these discussions always go around in circles :lol:


yep exactly :thumbup:


----------



## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

There certainly arent many places people could have had such a frank and open discussion on this subject :thumbup:

Bit of a testament to the good people we have on here really IMO


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Or it shows that as long it doesn't involve breeding we can debate anything. Like I said people can believe what they want and I'll listen to them as long as it's not hurting anyone else.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Sparkle said:


> I'm funny about religion not quite sure what I believe tbh
> 
> I belong to another forum and it's predominantly Americans and the majority of them are highly religious shoving it down your throat I can't deal with that you get threads asking for people to pray for their dogs etc etc and i cannot deal with it I made a comment about their being diff religions other than Christianity and wow you'd think I'd called everyone the word no woman likes haha
> 
> ...


if your on a forum ya dont like leave its simple really, if its a religious one then you cant expect them to stop, or even predominantly religious, thats the feel there so they wont change for you same as we wont stop babbling bout pets or certain subjects like hunting that upset peeps.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> I don't know of any church that teaches this, you are rather out of date.
> 
> Liz


Really? As a matter of fact, the information about this was given to me by you youself, Liz. In the last thread, you wtote:



lizward said:


> _18/9/210
> 
> Standard Christian teaching is that all those who die outside of Christ - ie. able to believe in Him but not actually doing so at the point when they die - spend eternity in hell._'


And when Hawksport then asked:

_Hawksport 19/9/10
So you could spend your whole life doing nothing but good but because you don't believe in God you get to spend eternity in hell?
That's a harsh sentence, is there any chance of an appeal hearing?_

Your reply to him was a definite:



lizward said:


> _19/9/10
> Correct, and no there isn't.
> 
> Liz_


So Liz - were you wrong last September, or are you wrong now?


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

RetroLemons said:


> I never fully understand these discussions. God can neither be proven or dis-proven so it's your personal opinion whether you believe or not.
> 
> To me it's pointless trying to explain each side to the other as at the end of the day it's down to faith, you either have it or you don't. And your opinion is only likely to change depending on your own experiences..
> 
> Myself, I'm not religious but I won't go banging on about it because these discussions always go around in circles :lol:


I agree that no-one is ever going to convince anyone to change their beliefs because of threads like these, and I also agree that, because of that, the arguments do tend to be circular. However, I always try to bear in mind when discussing anything on here that it is a public forum, able to be viewed by members and non-members alike. With that in mind, whatever the subject is, I think that:

a) it is important to get as many different views and opinions on the thread as possible
b) it is important to point out an alternative when people post as if their opinions are facts.
c) it is important for anyone who knows actual hard facts about the subject to post them

And besides all that, it's good to be able to exercise the old grey matter and have an interesting debate, even if no-one ever convinces anyone else to change their beliefs.


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

RetroLemons said:


> I never fully understand these discussions. God can neither be proven or dis-proven so it's your personal opinion whether you believe or not.
> 
> To me it's pointless trying to explain each side to the other as at the end of the day it's down to faith, you either have it or you don't. And your opinion is only likely to change depending on your own experiences..
> 
> Myself, I'm not religious but I won't go banging on about it because these discussions always go around in circles :lol:


Good post :thumbup:


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

lizward said:


> Describing the big bang? Why would you expect there to be??
> 
> You seem to think all churches are Catholic or High Anglican. I repeat, my church does not use statues or images. Very few protestant churches do!
> 
> Liz


again, re-read, i don't expect the ancients to know what dinosaurs were let alone the big bang. i was, if you re-read, talking about the image of christ, there is no desription of him, or the big bang, or dinosaurs or many other things but we have an image of jesus that is regarded as 'correct' yet we have no concrete proof that he was white. after all he came from the middle east, he could just as easily be ***** or permatanned. It all comes back to being written and re-written by us to be acceptable depending on our perception and prejudices.

i haven't a clue what the difference is between them all is, couldn't care less so don't read up on them, i was talking in general not about your's in particular, i said 'ours'. I have no idea who uses these statues, i rarely go to church and generally don't pay much attention to the decor if i'm in one it's the architecture i'm looking at.


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I agree that no-one is ever going to convince anyone to change their beliefs because of threads like these, and I also agree that, because of that, the arguments do tend to be circular. However, I always try to bear in mind when discussing anything on here that it is a public forum, able to be viewed by members and non-members alike. With that in mind, whatever the subject is, I think that:
> 
> a) it is important to get as many different views and opinions on the thread as possible
> b) it is important to point out an alternative when people post as if their opinions are facts.
> ...


agreed.

it's a discussion about our faiths, it's not supposed to be a discussion on who's god is best or real or the one true god.

supposed to be anyway.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> Or it shows that as long it doesn't involve breeding we can debate anything.


:lol: very true!

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> So Liz - were you wrong last September, or are you wrong now?


Most churches, in fact I can go further and say every church I have ever come across, teaches that those who die in infancy are saved regardless. The other considerations come into it once you are old enough to have made a conscious decision to accept or reject Christ. I do not, as a matter of principle, discuss my personal beliefs on this issue, it is far too sensitive when you have no way of knowing who might be reading who has lost a child.

The idea that only baptized babies go to heaven (and the unbaptised go to limbo) was taught by the RC church at one time I think but even they have abandoned that idea now. The Church of England's emergency infant baptism service emphasises that the parents msut be assured that their child's salvation does not depend on baptism. Many Calvinists teach that those dying in infancy are elect. Most Arminians have some sort of view of an age of responsibility below which all are saved. I seem to recall us discussing this before and you said the church you went to used to teach the same thing but you thought it was a cop-out.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

owieprone said:


> i was, if you re-read, talking about the image of christ, there is no desription of him, or the big bang, or dinosaurs or many other things but we have an image of jesus that is regarded as 'correct' yet we have no concrete proof that he was white.


OK, I honestly don't know where you get that from. If you see African art, Jesus is pictured as black. He was jewish and I have no reason to suppose that he looked much different to a modern-day arab, apart from jewish features.

Liz


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I have to say - I love discussing religion because it fascinates me. Any religion that is, I always said I would have done RS or theology at uni if I hadn't needed to get a job afterwards!!

I agree that everyone is welcome to their beliefs, no matter how bizarre other people find them, so long as they do not try to enforce it (ie by violent means). 

And for the record I have no problem with the JWs knocking on my door - if I don't want to talk to them I don't answer, makes no odds ot me.


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Personally, I believe religion was a means of controlling people in old times. It hasn't progressed with the rest of society and seems to hold alot of people back. I'm in a hurry though so can't write too much :lol:. BTW I meant no offence to any religious people - just my personal opinion. x


i agree. religion is an ancient philosophy made to control civalizations and explain why bad things happened. 
now we have laws and a justice system for the rules and science to explain everything. there is no need for religion in our modern world. its about time people let go of these ancient ( and wrong ) traditions and started living in the 21st centuary.

if you acctually read the bible/kuran or whatever you will see the kind of things it says in there eg. cutting off hands, men raping their sisters, selling children as sex slaves.........

i mean, at the time the bible was made everything was manic. they had to control people somhow and stop them killing, stealing, raping each other. and what better way to do it than to scare people into beliving if their bad they are going to burn in hell after they die. they didnt know any better back then. they didnt have laboritories and scientists to test and prove things. they were told to belive by an authority figure, it was enforced on them and anyone who didnt belive was burned or drowned.

religion is an evolutionary stage. when people first started communicating philosophy came arround. they were thinking ' why does this happen?' and they started thinking up reasons why the whole village's crops were flooded or all the cattle died. they started thinking somthing must be controling whats happening, this is happening for a reason, we have upset the gods, we should sacrafice someone to make them happy again so we dont all starve to death. when in reality the cattle all died from a virus and the floods came from monsoon rains.

and as humanity evolved, so did their religions. untill today, where we have reached the age of modern science and technology. we can go into space and explore other worlds out there. send probes down through jupiters gassy atmosphere and take pictures to see whats down there. as science progresses, religion becomes less and less plausable and belivable.

im sure there will come a day in the future where humanity as a whole will reach a point where there will be no need for religion anymore and hopfully people will become more civalized and stop all these 'holy wars' and religious hatred.


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

there is no scientific evidence that proves god exists, or any other gods or spirits or fairys or whatever other magical things people belive in ( like homeopathy ) 

there is, however, an overwhelming amount of factual scientific evidence that you can see and touch which, without a doubt, proves evolution as a scientific fact along with geological proof of the age and history of the plannet. 


now if you choose to egnore the scientific facts, which are laid out in front of you that you can pick up and touch, and 'belive' in somthing magical instead......in my opinion, that is not faith, that is stupidity.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

demi said:


> there is no scientific evidence that proves god exists, or any other gods or spirits or fairys or whatever other magical things people belive in ( like homeopathy )
> 
> there is, however, an overwhelming amount of factual scientific evidence that you can see and touch which, without a doubt, proves evolution as a scientific fact along with geological proof of the age and history of the plannet.
> 
> now if you choose to egnore the scientific facts, which are laid out in front of you that you can pick up and touch, and 'belive' in somthing magical instead......in my opinion, that is not faith, that is stupidity.


thats an arrogant post.


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> thats an arrogant post.


its a fact, and if you feel defencive its only coz you know its right.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

demi said:


> its a fact, and if you feel defencive its only coz you know its right.


in your post you have slated everyone here with a belief, thats not respect. You have told all christians, all witches etc that they are stupid, nice job


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> in your post you have slated everyone here with a belief, thats not respect. You have told all christians, all witches etc that they are stupid, nice job


i ment, people who choose to egnore scientific fact and favour somthing which cannot be proven ( because its not real ) , are clearly not thinking logically.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

demi said:


> i ment, people who choose to egnore scientific fact and favour somthing which cannot be proven ( because its not real ) , are clearly not thinking logically.


prove its not real cant be any more proven to be real as not.


----------



## RetroLemons (Nov 11, 2010)

Demi you are correct. There is scientific evidence for evolution, you could equally argue the the '7 days' is actually time compressed from 700million years etc.

You also realize that there are scientists who believe in evolution but are still religious? 

Please post some actual evidence that there is no higher being if you so confident?


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> prove its not real


hahahahahahaha! i just told you, there is an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence proving the opposite of what the bible says eg. the earth being only 6,000 year old and god creating adam and eve ( no mention of the dinosours )

prove its real, show me the scientific evidence that proves god exists and the bible is true!


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

RetroLemons said:


> Demi you are correct. There is scientific evidence for evolution, you could equally argue the the '7 days' is actually time compressed from 700million years etc.
> 
> You also realize that there are scientists who believe in evolution but are still religious?
> 
> Please post some actual evidence that there is no higher being if you so confident?


ok, you can say that about anything. prove fairys dont exist or the loch ness monster or trolls or santa clause.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> *prove its not real* cant be any more proven to be real as not.





RetroLemons said:


> Demi you are correct. There is scientific evidence for evolution, you could equally argue the the '7 days' is actually time compressed from 700million years etc.
> 
> You also realize that there are scientists who believe in evolution but are still religious?
> *
> Please post some actual evidence that there is no higher being if you so confident?*





demi said:


> hahahahahahaha! i just told you, there is an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence proving the opposite of what the bible says eg. the earth being only 6,000 year old and god creating adam and eve ( no mention of the dinosours )
> 
> prove its real, show me the scientific evidence that proves god exists and the bible is true!


re read noodle :001_cool: said it cant be proven one way or the other.


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

RetroLemons said:


> Demi you are correct. There is scientific evidence for evolution, you could equally argue the the '7 days' is actually time compressed from 700million years etc.
> 
> You also realize that there are scientists who believe in evolution but are still religious?
> 
> Please post some actual evidence that there is no higher being if you so confident?


i cant post it because there is too much information.
read 'the god delusion' by professor Richard Dawkins


----------



## RetroLemons (Nov 11, 2010)

The point is though you can't prove or disprove religion! What if the bible is a mis-interpretation?

I am not here to try and disprove anything or prove it, because it's physically impossible to do. So please refrain from calling people with faith in a higher being stupid.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

demi said:


> ok, you can say that about anything. prove fairys *dont* exist or the loch ness monster or trolls or santa clause.


exactly you just contradicted yourself


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

demi said:


> there is no scientific evidence that proves god exists, or any other gods or spirits or fairys or whatever other magical things people belive in ( like homeopathy )
> 
> there is, however, an overwhelming amount of factual scientific evidence that you can see and touch which, without a doubt, proves evolution as a scientific fact along with geological proof of the age and history of the plannet.
> 
> now if you choose to egnore the scientific facts, which are laid out in front of you that you can pick up and touch, and 'belive' in somthing magical instead......in my opinion, that is not faith, that is stupidity.


I do agree with some of your remarks, but I don't like the tone of your post.

I don't believe what is written in the bible, but I would never call anyone stupid for their faith, even if I strongly disagree with them.


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> re read noodle :001_cool: said it cant be proven one way or the other.


there is no way of proving god exists, because there is no evidence to prove he exists.
you can however prove evolution and the geology, age and history of the plannet.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

RetroLemons said:


> The point is though you can't prove or disprove religion! What if the bible is a mis-interpretation?
> 
> I am not here to try and disprove anything or prove it, because it's physically impossible to do. So please refrain from calling people with *faith in a higher **being stupid.*


thanks ......


----------



## RetroLemons (Nov 11, 2010)

demi said:


> i cant post it because there is too much information.
> read 'the god delusion' by professor Richard Dawkins


I'll happily give it a read, but that's not real proof is it? That's just a man's perception on the evidence he's seen.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

demi said:


> there is no way of proving god exists, because there is no evidence to prove he exists.
> you can however prove evolution and the geology, age and history of the plannet.


prove he dont exist then you cant can you all you can prove is that life changes.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I do agree with some of your remarks, but I don't like the tone of your post.
> 
> I don't believe what is written in the bible, but I would never call anyone stupid for their faith, even if I strongly disagree with them.


:thumbup: well said we all have a right to believe or not to.


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I do agree with some of your remarks, but I don't like the tone of your post.
> 
> I don't believe what is written in the bible, but I would never call anyone stupid for their faith, even if I strongly disagree with them.


i agree, that was a harsh comment to make. i take that back, i dont want to offend anyone. i just cant understand why people are not thinking logically about this when all the evidence is there in front of them, they still disregard it.


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> prove he dont exist then you cant can you all you can prove is that life changes.


i dont even understand what you have written


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2011)

demi said:


> i cant post it because there is too much information.
> read 'the god delusion' by professor Richard Dawkins


Dawkins is not the be all and end all of religious debate - he is as arrogant and pig headed in his opinions as some of those who are too heavy handed pushing their faith. (Yes I have read it, along with other books on theology, and I am agnostic leaning towards atheism)

Science does make mistakes, and there will always be things we do not know or understand - that is what makes science! As Dara O Brien said "of course science doesnt know everything...if it did, it would stop"

We do not know everything, there are things we still do not understand.

So. It is reasonable to believe, that science has yet to prove many many things. Or disprove. How do we know that a higher being isnt one of those things?
Scriptures are so old that *maybe* it is written in a simplistic manner in order to make it accessable to the people... a way in which a less scientifically developed society can understand. Maybe the creation stories were never meant to be taken literally?


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

demi said:


> i agree, that was a harsh comment to make. i take that back, i dont want to offend anyone. i just cant understand why people are not thinking logically about this when all the evidence is there in front of them, they still disregard it.


apology accepted :lol:


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> :thumbup: well said we all have a right to believe or not to.


ok, so im just going to choose to belive that the alians are comming for all religious people in 2012 to take them away to another dimention, meanwhile leaving all the athiests on earth to get on with scientific reserch in peace


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

demi said:


> ok, so im just going to choose to belive that the alians are comming for all religious people in 2012 to take them away to another dimention, meanwhile leaving all the athiests on earth to get on with scientific reserch in peace


dont be a smartass about something so personal. If you wanna beleive that then sure thats your right to aye I wont be so arrogant to call you stupid for it


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> Dawkins is not the be all and end all of religious debate - he is as arrogant and pig headed in his opinions as some of those who are too heavy handed pushing their faith. (Yes I have read it, along with other books on theology, and I am agnostic leaning towards atheism)
> 
> Science does make mistakes, and there will always be things we do not know or understand - that is what makes science! As Dara O Brien said "of course science doesnt know everything...if it did, it would stop"
> 
> ...


so basically your saying that the bible should not be taken literally, thus removing all credibility from religion? how do we know what parts of the bible are right and whats a metaphor? maybe the whole thing is a metaphor and none of it is acctually true?


----------



## RetroLemons (Nov 11, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> thanks ......


Was that badly worded? :scared:


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> :thumbup: well said we all have a right to believe or not to.


We agree again, :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: there something wrong here. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> dont be a smartass about something so personal. If you wanna beleive that then sure thats your right to aye I wont be so arrogant to call you stupid for it


alright, as long as we dont offend each other 
i'll wave goodbye to you from below when your taking off in the space ship


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

RetroLemons said:


> Was that badly worded? :scared:


:lol: that wasnt a sarcastic thanks ya knob was a real one :lol:


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2011)

demi said:


> so basically your saying that the bible should not be taken literally, thus removing all credibility from religion? how do we know what parts of the bible are right and whats a metaphor? maybe the whole thing is a metaphor and none of it is acctually true?


maybe. Like i said I am *agnostic* so not a follower of the bible or its teachings, so i wont argue with you on that point. Maybe its just a bunch of like-minded philosophors.

Just *maybe*.

Or maybe its all true. Or maybe one of the other mainstream religions are right.

Who knows. No one does, thats the point. I dont, you dont, Mr Dawkins doesnt. Because we cant prove definitively there is no higher being.

Edit to add: I didnt say it shouldnt be taken literally, i said that its a possibility. Maybe thats the case. Not that its definately the case - purely a possibility


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

demi said:


> i cant post it because there is too much information.
> read 'the god delusion' by professor Richard Dawkins


Dawkins doesn't exist.

Liz


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> We agree again, :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: there something wrong here. :lol: :lol: :lol:


:lol: well its nice for a change anyway aye :thumbup:


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

lizward said:


> Dawkins doesn't exist.
> 
> Liz


haha, prove it


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2011)

lizward said:


> Dawkins doesn't exist.
> 
> Liz


LOL - rep for that.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

demi said:


> i just cant understand why people are not thinking logically about this when all the evidence is there in front of them, they still disregard it.


That is exactly how I feel about atheists.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

demi said:


> haha, prove it


if he exists, why doesn't he appear to me?

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

demi said:


> ok, so im just going to choose to belive that the alians are comming for all religious people in 2012 to take them away to another dimention, meanwhile leaving all the athiests on earth to get on with scientific reserch in peace


Fine, we will see if you are right on Jan 1st 2013.

Liz


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

lizward said:


> if he exists, why doesn't he appear to me?
> 
> Liz


your not watching the right tv program


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

demi said:


> alright, as long as we dont offend each other
> i'll wave goodbye to you from below *when your taking off in the space ship ;*)


If you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if we could keep my thread on an adult level

The only reason THIS religious topic has gone on so long is because people have been able to maintain and not melt down into dig, squabbles and juvenile discourse.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Savahl said:


> LOL - rep for that.


Thank you


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Bandy said:


> If you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if we could keep my thread on an adult level
> 
> The only reason THIS religious topic has gone on so long is because people have been able to maintain and not melt down into dig, squabbles and juvenile discourse.


sorry miss


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Bandy said:


> If you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if we could keep my thread on an adult level
> 
> The only reason THIS religious topic has gone on so long is because people have been able to maintain and not melt down into dig, squabbles and juvenile discourse.


exactly :thumbup:


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Bandy said:


> The only reason THIS religious topic has gone on so long is because people have been able to maintain and not melt down into dig, squabbles and juvenile discourse.


67 pages so far, we're doing well


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

lizward said:


> 67 pages so far, we're doing well


thats gotta be the longest here aye? :lol:


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

anyway, i truly belive TIM is god

YouTube - Tim Minchin: Ten Foot C*ck And A Few Hundred Virgins


----------



## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> 67 pages so far, we're doing well


I've got a spare keyboard if yours is wearing out Liz...


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> Even if that was a fair comparison...
> If I asked my nan to write down a full account of the war - what happened and where (how did it start, why, who said what, what other factors were involved), im pretty sure he would get some stuff wrong.
> And it would probably different to if i asked a german pensioner of a similar age.
> 
> ...


i compleatly agree


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

demi said:


> sorry miss


Ahh, well, if we're assigning genders, it'd be sir..

but anyway, thanks for understanding..
I didn't mean to single you out. Its just that you're new and wanted to say something before this thread went the way of some before it.
:thumbup:


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> 67 pages so far, we're doing well


And if we keep it on the same track, it should continue to do so.


----------



## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Bandy said:


> Ahh, well, if we're assigning genders, it'd be sir..
> 
> but anyway, thanks for understanding..
> I didn't mean to single you out. Its just that you're new and wanted to say something before this thread went the way of some before it.
> :thumbup:


oops, sorry sir 

and i think this is a subject that could last forever. the belivers are hanging on in there, defending their argument with 'blind faith' as the non-belivers bombard them with scientific evidence. it is incredibably difficult to convince someone they are wrong if they have been brought up to belive they are right, they cherry pick what to belive if it supports their case and disregard everything else.
if only people could be as enthusiastic about science as they are about religion.


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## reido (Dec 4, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't pretend to have all the answers or even half of them.But i have never thought life was fair anyway.But as i said i wouldn't blame god,sh*t happens and i accept that.*


oh didnt realise i wasnt allowed to blame god because you dont, how silly of me.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

demi said:


> oops, sorry sir
> 
> and i think this is a subject that could last forever. the belivers are hanging on in there, defending their argument with 'blind faith' as the non-belivers bombard them with scientific evidence. it is incredibably difficult to convince someone they are wrong if they have been brought up to belive they are right, they cherry pick what to belive if it supports their case and disregard everything else.
> if only people could be as enthusiastic about science as they are about religion.


prove we are wrong then, with your scientific evidence, I sure missed that bit when scientists announced all things unseen as not real ?


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2011)

Waterlily said:


> prove we are wrong then, with your scientific evidence, I sure missed that bit when scientists announced all things unseen as not real ?


I had the evidence right here.... but jesus pinched it! Sneaky messiah!


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2011)

As a catholic I have always believed in God was brought up to believe in God and Mary and of course Jesus and I still do.:thumbup:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> there is no scientific evidence that proves god exists, or any other gods or spirits or fairys or whatever other magical things people belive in ( like homeopathy )
> 
> there is, however, an overwhelming amount of factual scientific evidence that you can see and touch which, without a doubt, proves evolution as a scientific fact along with geological proof of the age and history of the plannet.
> 
> now if you choose to egnore the scientific facts, which are laid out in front of you that you can pick up and touch, and 'belive' in somthing magical instead......in my opinion, that is not faith, that is stupidity.


No need to be nasty hun. People are not stupid just because they hold a different viewpoint to you. Perhaps they are looking at a wider picture than you can see? Don't forget, a lot of scientific theories are just that, *theories*. They may be based on facts that are understood now, but most of the universe is still a mystery and there will be facts that we have not yet even dreamt of, let alone discovered. Today's mystery is tomorrow's science. Who is to say that these yet undiscovered facts may not radically alter everyone's point of view? (2012 is almost upon us, after all)

And while you are remembering that a lot of science is made up of *theories*, remember also that a lot of these scientific theories have scientists that support the theories, and scientists that don't. The two that spring immediately to mind are the Big Bang Theory and the global warming theory. Both have groups of scientists eminent in their fields who dispute the theories put forward by their colleagues.

So people who don't share your point of view are not stupid. Quite the opposite, in fact.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> 67 pages so far, we're doing well


better than last time!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> oops, sorry sir
> 
> and i think this is a subject that could last forever. the belivers are hanging on in there, defending their argument with 'blind faith' as the non-belivers bombard them with scientific evidence. it is incredibably difficult to convince someone they are wrong if they have been brought up to belive they are right, they cherry pick what to belive if it supports their case and disregard everything else.
> if only people could be as enthusiastic about science as they are about religion.


But this isn't a "let's fight it out to the end to see who is correct" - if we wanted to know whose religion/god/science was most popular we'd have done a poll and saved ourselves the trouble.  This is an opportunity to discuss all sorts of theories from all sorts of religions - and science too, if you feel it is germaine to the discussion - in order that we can expand our knowledge and understand where others are coming from.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

demi said:


> there is no scientific evidence that proves god exists, or any other gods or spirits or fairys or whatever other magical things people belive in ( like homeopathy )
> 
> there is, however, an overwhelming amount of factual scientific evidence that you can see and touch which, without a doubt,* proves evolution as a scientific fact *along with geological proof of the age and history of the plannet.
> 
> now if you choose to egnore the scientific facts, which are laid out in front of you that you can pick up and touch, and 'belive' in somthing magical instead......in my opinion, that is not faith, that is stupidity.


I have a problem with this right here....

where is the evidence of EVOLUTION?

Last I checked there are STILL apes...
and you do realize that the "discoveries" that were used to _prove_ evolution were debunked right?

>>Piltdown man was a hoax<<

>>Debunking Evolution<<


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

demi said:


> oops, sorry sir
> 
> and i think this is a subject that could last forever. the belivers are hanging on in there, defending their argument with 'blind faith' as the non-belivers bombard them with scientific evidence. it is incredibably difficult to convince someone they are wrong if they have been brought up to belive they are right, they cherry pick what to belive if it supports their case and disregard everything else.
> if only people could be as enthusiastic about science as they are about religion.


Religion can never really be an argument though just a discussion on different beliefs - much the same with some science not all people believe scientific evidence.


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

Bandy said:


> I have a problem with this right here....
> 
> where is the evidence of EVOLUTION?
> 
> ...


I know for a fact that we are still evolving. I went to see my doctor because I had a bad back and she said "What do you expect - we are still evolving!"

So there you have it... It didn't help my back though!


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Guinevere13 said:


> I know for a fact that we are still evolving. I went to see my doctor because I had a bad back and she said "What do you expect - we are still evolving!"
> 
> So there you have it... It didn't help my back though!


You really should see a new doc...quacks dont fix backs..

repeat that little ditty to yourself as you thumb through the phone book.

:lol::lol::lol:


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## reido (Dec 4, 2010)

Its obvious to me that we evolved from apes, a human pregnancy test is what is used on female gorillas etc to find if there pregnant.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

reido said:


> Its obvious to me that we evolved from apes, a human pregnancy test is what is used on female gorillas etc to find if there pregnant.


I am an avid supporter of The Great Ape Project. Project GAP We share about 98% of our DNA with apes, to the extent that ape/human blood transfusions are possible. However, there is no scientific link to prove that we descended from apes - and as Bandy pointed out, if we evolved from apes, would apes still be around?

It is much more likely that we and the apes had an ancestor in common.

Now, if apes and humans share 98% of DNA - does god accept they are 98% human? Does he look after them and accept their souls into heaven?

I'm not being facaetious here - the Great Ape Project is working towards apes being accorded some human rights - mainly the right to life, the protection of individual liberty and the prohibition of torture. Apes live in family groups, and are capable of experiencing many human emotions. Where - if anywhere - does religion fit into all this?


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> No need to be nasty hun. People are not stupid just because they hold a different viewpoint to you. Perhaps they are looking at a wider picture than you can see? Don't forget, a lot of scientific theories are just that, *theories*. They may be based on facts that are understood now, but most of the universe is still a mystery and there will be facts that we have not yet even dreamt of, let alone discovered. Today's mystery is tomorrow's science. Who is to say that these yet undiscovered facts may not radically alter everyone's point of view? (2012 is almost upon us, after all)
> 
> And while you are remembering that a lot of science is made up of *theories*, remember also that a lot of these scientific theories have scientists that support the theories, and scientists that don't. The two that spring immediately to mind are the Big Bang Theory and the global warming theory. Both have groups of scientists eminent in their fields who dispute the theories put forward by their colleagues.
> 
> So people who don't share your point of view are not stupid. Quite the opposite, in fact.


there is a diference between a new scientific therory which is still being tested for ( like string theory ) and theorys which have been repeatedly proven ( like gravity, the law of motion, E=Mc2 ect) 
global warming is a proven theory, we can see it happening everyday. the conspirocy theorists just look for any excuse to go against the science. just like the people who cause wide spread pannic about vaccines thus causing many people in the public to refuse vaccinations for themselves and their children which in turn causes a rise in the number of cases of the desease ( eg, rubella )

can i remind you that without science we would not be sitting here today having this conversation. we would still be living in the stone age! we would not have computers, televisions, central heating. we wouold not be able to travel into space and explore the universe or go to the bottom of the ocean or to the most remote and hostile places on earth. we would not be descovering 7 new speaces of lifeforms everyday, or descovering whole new galixies where we will one day find life other than our own. science is amazing, open your eyes and see whats out there. there is so much more to descover that we dont know about

you wouldnt be able to do maths without the 'theorys' or physics or biology, but these theorys have been repeatedly proven without fault and thus have become fact. 1+1=2 , not 3 . this is not a theory anymore, it is a fact!

my point is, we have all these scientific facts supporting science and disproving religion. there is no scientific evidence for religion. religion is a 'theory' which cannot be proven.

( and again, as i said before, i didnt mean to call anyone stupid, i just get frustrated when people are blatintly egnoring the facts and stubbornly sticking with what they have been told to belive)


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I am an avid supporter of The Great Ape Project. Project GAP We share about 98% of our DNA with apes, to the extent that ape/human blood transfusions are possible. However, there is no scientific link to prove that we descended from apes - and as Bandy pointed out, if we evolved from apes, would apes still be around?
> 
> It is much more likely that we and the apes had an ancestor in common.
> 
> ...


OMG OMG OMG!!!! 
we didnt evolve from apes! humans and apes both evolved from a common ancestor. in that if you go back millions of years on the evolutionary scale you will find the branch on the tree for the apes and our branch joins together . humans and apes are both seprate branches seporating from the same origonal main branch. we did not become monkeys then turn into humans!!

thats a good question acctually, where do the animals go when they die? dont they go to heven too?? if not, why?


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

You sound quite bright but your spelling stinks,I don't think it's because you can't spell, more likely you're in a rush to post....try reading your posts through before you click.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

reido said:


> Its obvious to me that we evolved from apes, a human pregnancy test is what is used on female gorillas etc to find if there pregnant.


 humans and apes both evolved from the same common ancestor. we didnt evolve from apes.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

poohdog said:


> You sound quite bright but your spelling stinks,I don't think it's because you can't spell, more likely you're in a rush to post....try reading your posts through before you click.


im guessing that was aimed at me. im dyslexic.  english was never my strong point.

and also in a rush


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

demi said:


> there is a diference between a new scientific therory which is still being tested for ( like string theory ) and theorys which have been repeatedly proven ( like gravity, the law of motion, E=Mc2 ect)
> global warming is a proven theory, we can see it happening everyday. the conspirocy theorists just look for any excuse to go against the science. just like the people who cause wide spread pannic about vaccines thus causing many people in the public to refuse vaccinations for themselves and their children which in turn causes a rise in the number of cases of the desease ( eg, rubella )
> 
> can i remind you that without science we would not be sitting here today having this conversation. we would still be living in the stone age! we would not have computers, televisions, central heating. we wouold not be able to travel into space and explore the universe or go to the bottom of the ocean or to the most remote and hostile places on earth. we would not be descovering 7 new speaces of lifeforms everyday, or descovering whole new galixies where we will one day find life other than our own. science is amazing, open your eyes and see whats out there. there is so much more to descover that we dont know about
> ...


I am not really sure though why science and religion have to be mutually exclusive of one another though 

Is it not possible to believe in the theory of gravity AND a higher order 

Like i have said i don't believe in religion or god or heaven but take time travel for instance. There is no evidence to support this has ever happened but does that mean it could never happen  Surely the whole point of science is to further our understanding of EVERYTHING and things we take for granted now would have been seen as "magic" not that long ago.

If you look at the human brain for example and how little we know and how little we use there are infinate opportunities for us to develop as human beings going forward and also to my knowledge (and excusing my rudimentary understanding of Biology) there are aspects of pro creation that are yet to be fully explained by science yet babies exist.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> I am not really sure though why science and religion have to be mutually exclusive of one another though
> 
> Is it not possible to believe in the theory of gravity AND a higher order
> 
> ...


religion has always, looking back throughout history, been opposed to science because they fear it will disprove their whole philosophy. 
look at darwin for example. when he worte the origin of species it sat in a drawer till long after he died before it was published because of the church. 
anything suggesting evolution instead of 'adam and eve' was concidered blasfamy and punnished by death.

i really think if you have a proper understanding of science it is not possible to keep beliving religion. the two go against each other. if you are really thinking logically and scientifically about the universe, looking at all the factual evidence and everything as a whole, i dont see how anyone could still belive in god.

obviously people do, but i dont understand how. i think its mainly due to tradition. my parents belive, thats what i was told to belive, we have always belived this and i cant go against my whole familys tradition.

oh, and time travel is theoretically possible, but only forward in time.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I am an avid supporter of The Great Ape Project. Project GAP We share about 98% of our DNA with apes, to the extent that ape/human blood transfusions are possible. However, there is no scientific link to prove that we descended from apes - and as Bandy pointed out, if we evolved from apes, would apes still be around?
> 
> It is much more likely that we and the apes had an ancestor in common.
> 
> ...


Yes they should have human rights, we are so closely related its criminal not to afford it them! and to assume we can have souls and they cant shows us to be arrogant and self important.... sadly this is what the bible has taught us...that we are the 'chosen' being:confused1:...the rest are souless and there for us to do as we will

and i 'pray' the Great Ape Project achieve full success in gaining full rights and protection for our cousins.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> global warming is a proven theory, we can see it happening everyday. the conspirocy theorists just look for any excuse to go against the science. just like the people who cause wide spread pannic about vaccines thus causing many people in the public to refuse vaccinations for themselves and their children which in turn causes a rise in the number of cases of the desease ( eg, rubella )


No it is not a proven theory - it is a theory that is still in dispute in the scientific world. And I am not talking about conspiracy theories, I am talking about scientists in the relevant fields disagreeing that the effects we see happening every day are due to global warming. read this and learn: 
.: U.S. Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works :: Minority Page :.



demi said:


> can i remind you that without science we would not be sitting here today having this conversation. we would still be living in the stone age! we would not have computers, televisions, central heating. we wouold not be able to travel into space and explore the universe or go to the bottom of the ocean or to the most remote and hostile places on earth. we would not be descovering 7 new speaces of lifeforms everyday, or descovering whole new galixies where we will one day find life other than our own.


No need to remind me hun - I am quite capable of realising the advances science has made and nowhere have I tried to deny that. All I have tried to point out to you is what you yourself now seem to be saying below:



demi said:


> open your eyes and see whats out there. there is so much more to descover that we dont know about


Exactly what I said to you! For all you know, some day soon science may be proving the existence of psychic phenomena, religion ..........



demi said:


> you wouldnt be able to do maths without the 'theorys' or physics or biology, but these theorys have been repeatedly proven without fault and thus have become fact. 1+1=2 , not 3 . this is not a theory anymore, it is a fact!


Mathematics is not a science!



demi said:


> my point is, we have all these scientific facts supporting science and disproving religion.


My point is that you quoted a lot of scientific "facts" to prove your point which are, in fact, theories and not proven facts. If you want your arguments to be credible, you should not read one scientist's views (eg Hawkins) and take them as gospel (pun intended  ) and neither should you pretend theories are facts



demi said:


> here is no scientific evidence for religion. religion is a 'theory' which cannot be proven.


Neither can it be disproven - unless you have evidence to the contrary 



demi said:


> ( and again, as i said before, i didnt mean to call anyone stupid, i just get frustrated when people are blatintly egnoring the facts and stubbornly sticking with what they have been told to belive)


And yet you seem to be as guilty of ignoring the facts as anyone on here!


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> Yes they should have human rights, we are so closely related its criminal not to afford it them! and to assume we can have souls and they cant shows us to be arrogant and self important.... sadly this is what the bible has taught us...that we are the 'chosen' being:confused1:...the rest are souless and there for us to do as we will
> 
> and i 'pray' the Great Ape Project achieve full success in gaining full rights and protection for our cousins.


why dont our pets get to come to heven with us? thats not fair! 
i liked the ancient egyptions better, they burried their cats with them to acompany them to heven. although the cats were usually burried alive


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> OMG OMG OMG!!!!
> we didnt evolve from apes! humans and apes both evolved from a common ancestor. in that if you go back millions of years on the evolutionary scale you will find the branch on the tree for the apes and our branch joins together . humans and apes are both seprate branches seporating from the same origonal main branch. we did not become monkeys then turn into humans!!


Erm - don't know why you are so cross - I actually put exactly what you are saying here!


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> No it is not a proven theory - it is a theory that is still in dispute in the scientific world. And I am not talking about conspiracy theories, I am talking about scientists in the relevant fields disagreeing that the effects we see happening every day are due to global warming. read this and learn:
> .: U.S. Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works :: Minority Page :.
> 
> No need to remind me hun - I am quite capable of realising the advances science has made and nowhere have I tried to deny that. All I have tried to point out to you is what you yourself now seem to be saying below:
> ...


the US is in denial about global warming for some reason. the green house effect is a fact and we can see the polar ice melting everyday.

maths is a science along with physics, biology, chemistry, geography...........

gravity is a proven theory, as is E=Mc2. what are you talking about, honestly???

religion cannot be proven because there is nothing to prove. in order to prove a theory it needs to be tested repeatedly and for the results to be constant. the 'theory' of religion cannot be tested becuse there is nothing to test for. HOW CAN YOU TEST SOMETHING THATS NOT THERE???


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Yes they should have human rights, we are so closely related its criminal not to afford it them! and to assume we can have souls and they cant shows us to be arrogant and self important.... sadly this is what the bible has taught us...that we are the 'chosen' being:confused1:...the rest are souless and there for us to do as we will
> 
> and i 'pray' the Great Ape Project achieve full success in gaining full rights and protection for our cousins.


I agree with you Noush - especially the bit about us being arrogant to assume we have souls and they don't. It's one of the many areas in which the bible falls down because of the times in which it was written.

There are a lot of issues that would never have occurred to the original writers. One thing I keep thinking about is what about alien life forces on other worlds? One presumes that if god created everything he created those as well - what if they haven't read the eathly bible and so don't live by it's teachings? Does that mean god won't give them salvation and welcome them into heaven? Or do they not have original sin because Adam and Eve lived on earth, not their planet? And, to link it back, if alien life forces have souls, don't have original sin and are welcomed into heaven, why aren't apes?

Perhaps Liz will come on and give us her take on this - or do you think I'm going to deep for a discussion on a pet forum


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> the US is in denial about global warming for some reason. the green house effect is a fact and we can see the polar ice melting everyday.
> 
> maths is a science along with physics, biology, chemistry, geography...........
> 
> ...


Im sorry but whilst I am a woman of science, its why i chose the career i chose - Global warming by human damage by CO2 emissions is not a 100% PROVEN theory. Just a theory. There is evidence to support it, however there is also evidence to support the idea that the earths global warming is actually a cyclical phenomenom. I personally believe that these cyclical changes are not sufficient enough to cause global changes in mainland areas - out to sea maybe, and there is evidence that glaciers grow and retreat periodically. But I am not arrogant enough to say that it is 100% definate.

Science does make mistakes, and has done in the past.

I saw you are a fan of tim minchin... In which case you should know that he says, and quite rightly, science CHANGES its view based on evidence provided. So there is a chance that popular theories will change; as is the nature of science.

As for testing something that's not there... There is the possibility that there are things that we, as humans cannot experiance - a dimension that we are not yet aware of? Dogs, for example, experiance the world in a way that we do not. They hear things we do not hear, they smell things we do not smell, they see things we do not see. We know this because we can analyse a dogs body and organs. There was a time this was unknown. There was a time gravity was unheard of. Electricity. Atomic matter. These are all learnings from the unseen world. Science recognises it does not have all the answers - and so it pushes on. One day science might stumble across something that indicates an omnipitant being...it may not, but it is a possibility!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> the US is in denial about global warming for some reason. the green house effect is a fact and we can see the polar ice melting everyday.


No-one is disputing the effects we can see. Scientists are disputing the _causes_ of these effects. And so far, all they have is unproven theories, not facts. Instead of shrugging and saying they are "in denial for *some reason*", google a bit and you will find out the r*easons *why many eminent scientists (and not just Americans) are unconvinced that the effects we see are due to global warming.



demi said:


> maths is a science along with physics, biology, chemistry, geography...........


You do have some funny ideas - mathematics is a discipline in its own right and is not a science.



demi said:


> religion cannot be proven because there is nothing to prove. in order to prove a theory it needs to be tested repeatedly and for the results to be constant. the 'theory' of religion cannot be tested becuse there is nothing to test for. HOW CAN YOU TEST SOMETHING THATS NOT THERE???


Stop shouting. I've said before, there is no need to be rude. I will discuss anything you like, but not if you can't discuss sensibly.

Well, that's a closed argument if ever I heard one. How far do you think your pet scientists would have got if they had started with the premise "I can't prove anything because there is nothing to prove"? The earth abounds with religious phenomena - in my own limited experience I have seen many things - ghosts, apparitions, felt god-like forces; I read the Tarot and have had people amazed at things I tell them. There are other people on here who have spoken of things they have seen and felt, There is plenty out there to test; you just don't want to ackowledge it.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

The whole maths = science debate is a bit of a headache...on one hand it appears to be a tool of science but independant of it. However nature is fundementally is mathematical thing, and when coming up with mathematical formula it does undergo similar testing and hypothesising as science - and when analysed it does meet the requirements that are set out by the definition of science.

Either argument is valid really. But its by the by...


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> No-one is disputing the effects we can see. Scientists are disputing the _causes_ of these effects. And so far, all they have is unproven theories, not facts. Instead of shrugging and saying they are "in denial for *some reason*", google a bit and you will find out the r*easons *why many eminent scientists (and not just Americans) are unconvinced that the effects we see are due to global warming.
> 
> You do have some funny ideas - mathematics is a discipline in its own right and is not a science.
> 
> ...


omg you are acctually mad, i could tell from your name but now you've prooved it.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

who saw derron brown last night? hes brilliant!


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

Im gunna give up now I never seem to get a response  lol


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Savahl said:


> Im sorry but whilst I am a woman of science, its why i chose the career i chose - Global warming by human damage by CO2 emissions is not a 100% PROVEN theory. Just a theory. There is evidence to support it, however there is also evidence to support the idea that the earths global warming is actually a cyclical phenomenom. I personally believe that these cyclical changes are not sufficient enough to cause global changes in mainland areas - out to sea maybe, and there is evidence that glaciers grow and retreat periodically. But I am not arrogant enough to say that it is 100% definate.
> 
> Science does make mistakes, and has done in the past.
> 
> ...


This is kind of what i was getting at about the human brain 

We use so little of it and understand even less that it is entirely possible that as we evolve we may find that we really do all have the power of things like telepathy. Just because we haven't "unlocked that box" doesn't mean we won't.

Who is to say that for example if you consider Telepathy as an option for the future then maybe there aren't other planets with beings on who are also telepathic. Could that maybe explain some areas of the paranormal ??

Also taking time travel, this is a possibility also therefore could ghosts and apparitions not be another planets attempts at communication ??

I am not saying this as fact but you can see the possibilities  therefore to right it all off is ignorant IMO :001_cool:


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## Carpe Diem (Dec 31, 2010)

demi said:


> who saw derron brown last night? hes brilliant!


it was a great show :thumbup:


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I have no issue with this and hope my children find their own path. I would support any decisions they made for themselves in this area despite my own opinions and the fact i have chosen not to have them Christened (i dont do hypocrisy)
> 
> I have noticed though that families who have a strong attatchment to a particular religion seem to insist their children hold the same beliefs/attend their church etc, am i wrong or is that generally the case ??


If your children wish they can undergo babtism as they get older, should they still be attending church, possibly if/when they get confirmed into the church around the age of 10/11.

As far as family faith goes I can only comment on what I know and what I've seen. We're a pretty mixed bag, Mam was brought up Methodist, Dad CofE, we were all brought up CofE, my brother married a Catholic, tried to be ordained as a vicar eons ago and was refused because he wouldnt insist on his wife changing religion, hence my brother is now catholic his kids the same, although these days the kids only turn up for church the same as most people, christenings, weddings, funerals. 
Someone I once worked with was brought up JW. She met the most wonderful man, but he wasnt JW and had no intention of becoming so. Her parents made her life hell and she eventually had to break all contact with them as they were being so vicious toward her, to the point of telling her that she was dead to them as long as she was with this man.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> This is kind of what i was getting at about the human brain
> 
> We use so little of it and understand even less that it is entirely possible that as we evolve we may find that we really do all have the power of things like telepathy. Just because we haven't "unlocked that box" doesn't mean we won't.
> 
> ...


Agreed. And there is a line of thinking that says that time travel is a future possibility but only travel FORWARDS in time, not backwards.

Hawkins says 'We can already see how time slows down for objects travelling at high speed by looking at what happens in paricle accelerators,' he told The Times.
'When we accelerate tiny particles to 99.99 per cent of the sped of light in the Large Hadron Collider at Cern in Geneva, the time they experience passes at one-seventhousandth of the rate it does for us.
'If we could build a spaceship that was fast enough, then it could reach other stars in the lifetime of the crew, but maybe 2.5million years would have passed by on earth.'


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> Im sorry but whilst I am a woman of science, its why i chose the career i chose - Global warming by human damage by CO2 emissions is not a 100% PROVEN theory. Just a theory. There is evidence to support it, however there is also evidence to support the idea that the earths global warming is actually a cyclical phenomenom. I personally believe that these cyclical changes are not sufficient enough to cause global changes in mainland areas - out to sea maybe, and there is evidence that glaciers grow and retreat periodically. But I am not arrogant enough to say that it is 100% definate.
> 
> Science does make mistakes, and has done in the past.
> 
> ...


u still there? sorry i had to get my daughter ready for nursary.

what scientific field are you in?

the green house effect is a fact. the sunlight comes through the atmosohere bounces back and gets trapped between the earth and the atmosphere causing a warming effect, melting the ice . i am not saying its 100% caused by human activity, but it is happening. the plannet is warming, the ice is melting, the sea level is rising and weather is becoming more extream. how can you say its not happening?

most animals have better hearing than us. as we have evolved we dont need to rely on our hearing to listen out for preditors ect. the more we seep into modern technology the less we need our animal instincts. 
as for the time when gravity was descovered, and i use this as an example but it applys to lots of things. gravity was always there, we didnt know how to explain it until neuton. but religion has been arround since mankind first started communicating and thinking outside the box so how come no one has prooved it yet after all these millions of years? and how come, as people have evolved, so has their religious beleifs? how come, in different regions people belive different things? there is so many contradictory beleifs but no one can prove any of them.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

I am an engineer, so most of my formal education is around physics with regards to electricity and mechanical concepts... but I do read alot about other areas in physics

I have said about 4 times in this thread, that I think religion is the result of a particular type of philosophy, to explain the unexplainable, and is relevant to that particular group and culture, at that time. Which is why it changes and evolves, to suit the need of the society.
Thats not to say I will happily say that there is absolutely NO chance that there is "something" out there. As I do not know everything. No one knows everything.

Also, we dont have the capability to hear and see certain things its not that we dont use it...we are not capable of it. Our eyes only see within a certain range of wavelengths. Some animals can see a wider set of wavelengths and so may see things we may not.


And global warming is happening, yes. The world is warming. But WHY is a point of contention in the scientific community. There are papers arguing both sides, and evidence for both sides. Greenhouse gases is not proven to be the cause as yet, not to the point of unquestionable doubt. It is still a debate that is going on.

The point I am making, anyway, is that science develops. It learns.. We are still young as a race (human), we still have a lot to learn, and science is still pushin to learn it. You cannot say something simply is not there and should be ignored, we may just not understand it as it is currently unfathomable.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> I am an engineer, so most of my formal education is around physics with regards to electricity.. but I do read alot about other areas in physics
> 
> I have said about 4 times in this thread, that I think religion is the result of a particular type of philosophy, to explain the unexplainable, and is relevant to that particular group and culture.
> 
> And global warming is happening, yes. The world is warming. But WHY is a point of contention in the scientific community. There are papers arguing both sides, and evidence for both sides. Greenhouse gases is not proven to be the cause as yet, not to the point of unquestionable doubt. It is still a debate that is going on.


i also said futher back, religion was thought up my man to explain the unexplainable before they had science.

have you read 'the trouble with physics' ? i cant remember who its by, but if you want to hear about physisists debating theorys this is the book to read.

heres the website: http://www.thetroublewithphysics.com/


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

somthing fun!

YouTube - Tim Minchin- The good book


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> i also said futher back, religion was thought up my man to explain the unexplainable before they had science.
> 
> have you read 'the trouble with physics' ? i cant remember who its by, but if you want to hear about physisists debating theorys this is the book to read.
> 
> heres the website: The Trouble with Physics


But science still doesnt have all the answers, it never will, so religion will still go on to try and answer those questions. Its not something you can fight, or should in my opinion...

People that need prove to believe something, will always want proof. People that believe what they feel is in their heart willnot give a crap about scientific proof - its not what it is important to them. You cant force someone to care about science.

I think its more contested now because of modern media and communication there is less chance to allow religions to evolve to adapt to our current society and its problems.

I need proof, but I am not an atheist, because in proving that there is something out there I also want proof that there isnt for me to make a definative decision. That is what makes me agnostic.

I am theologies fence sitter. And it hasnt given me splinters yet.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> But science still doesnt have all the answers, it never will, so religion will still go on to try and answer those questions. Its not something you can fight, or should in my opinion...
> 
> People that need prove to believe something, will always want proof. People that believe what they feel is in their heart willnot give a crap about scientific proof - its not what it is important to them. You cant force someone to care about science.
> 
> I think its more contested now because of modern media and communication there is less chance to allow religions to evolve to adapt to our current society and its problems.


i can see, in the future, religion being banned ( like a form of religious comunisim) i mean, how long can all this religious war and terrorism go on for without concequences? religion is the cause of so much hatred, predujuce and fighting, no doubt somtime in the future people will get sick of it and try to enforce laws on it.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

If people are killing each other over religion they will do it over something else.

Oil
Colour
Land
Money.


In fact thats pretty much what we fight over now, and use "god" as a giant excuse.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Savahl said:


> People always need someone to blame. Its never "our" fault. We need to blame religion, a conceptual thing, for our own (humans) greed, ignorance, envy...
> Religion takes the flak - and those with faith, in their defence, instead of blaming some conceptual being, blame humans, or accept it as the unexplainable.
> 
> We kill each other, so they say "God cannot control what we do, it is our sin"
> ...


See i do believe sad things happen for reasons we cannot understand but i cant understand people believing the concept that any God has somehow worked in a mysterious way and allowed it.

If you believe GOD answers prayers to provide you with good things then that suggests he has control over our destinies therefore why would any god allow children to suffer horrific illnesses 

For eg - a man has a terrible accident and isnt expected to live, the family pray and he pulls through. God answered their prayers.

A child is suffering from terminal cancer, the family pray but the child dies a horrible protraceted death. God moves in mysterious ways 

This is just too wooly for me.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

poohdog said:


> You sound quite bright but your spelling stinks,I don't think it's because you can't spell, more likely you're in a rush to post....try reading your posts through before you click.


Not everyone is as clever, as you think you are.



demi said:


> im guessing that was aimed at me. im dyslexic.  english was never my strong point.
> 
> and also in a rush


I'm dyslexic as well, and I find it hard writing some posts, I'm always trying to check my spelling but sometimes I think what the hell, if it's wrong, it's wrong, life is to short to keep checking everything.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> See i do believe sad things happen for reasons we cannot understand but i cant understand people believing the concept that any God has somehow worked in a mysterious way and allowed it.
> 
> If you believe GOD answers prayers to provide you with good things then that suggests he has control over our destinies therefore why would any god allow children to suffer horrific illnesses
> 
> ...


I dont like it either really. However something so tragic just happens sometimes... and although i dont get how your could accept that your god could allow it, I can kinda understand that people sometimes need to hear something to cope with their grief. And the fact that there is no reason, its the tragedy of nature and the fragility of the human condition, isnt an acceptable answer for some.
The concept that god accepts children as innocents, and that he would have a reason we cannot understand but accept his judgement as right, may be a comfort to some.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

demi said:


> i can see, in the future, religion being banned ( like a form of religious comunisim) i mean, how long can all this religious war and terrorism go on for without concequences? religion is the cause of so much hatred, predujuce and fighting, no doubt somtime in the future people will get sick of it and try to enforce laws on it.


I too can see Christianity being banned, but don't kid yourself it's because religion has bad consequences. The conseqeunces of militant atheism (as seen in the former Soviet union for example) were not exactly wonderful, were they?

Liz


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

lizward said:


> I too can see Christianity being banned, but don't kid yourself it's because religion has bad consequences. The conseqeunces of militant atheism (as seen in the former Soviet union for example) were not exactly wonderful, were they?
> 
> Liz


I certainly wouldnt want to live in any society where people are told what they can and cannot believe in.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Savahl said:


> I dont like it either really. However something so tragic just happens sometimes... and although i dont get how your could accept that your god could allow it, I can kinda understand that people sometimes need to hear something to cope with their grief. And the fact that there is no reason, its the tragedy of nature and the fragility of the human condition, isnt an acceptable answer for some.
> The concept that god accepts children as innocents, and that he would have a reason we cannot understand but accept his judgement as right, may be a comfort to some.


I am absolutely sure it is of some comfort to people and for that alone it should not be ridiculed 

However it can also be a very insensitive thing to suggest to someone who doesnt have a strong faith.

Think i would probably slap anyone who said it to me under those circumstances.

We touched on this earlier in the thread with there being some suggestion that people who (for example) die from terminal cancer being somehow "responsible" for their illnesses because of the lives they have lead or because they are not religious. Personally i think thats a wicked thing to suggest and far from accurate, the last person i knew who died from Cancer was training to be a vicar and had 4 children under 6 years old, i don't believe GOD needed him more and if he did then he is a selfish bugger


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> I am absolutely sure it is of some comfort to people and for that alone it should not be ridiculed
> 
> However it can also be a very insensitive thing to suggest to someone who doesnt have a strong faith.
> 
> ...


I would probably lamp someone too. And i totally agree I dont like seeing someone say it... Its akward cos you know in their way they are trying to be of comfort, but if you dont believe it just flares up alot of anger.

The whole "punishment" for a sin is a sick concept imo, do you remember when Glenn hoddle suggested such a thing, and was rightly dismissed as the england manager.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Savahl said:


> I would probably lamp someone too. And i totally agree I dont like seeing someone say it... Its akward cos you know in their way they are trying to be of comfort, but if you dont believe it just flares up alot of anger.
> 
> The whole "punishment" for a sin is a sick concept imo, do you remember when Glenn hoddle suggested such a thing, and was rightly dismissed as the english manager.


It's just plain wrong. Its bad enough now with Cancer that science bangs on about carcenogenics all the time and its all probably because we have used cling film to wrap our sandwiches in or didnt eat enough tomatoes 

As if people dont feel bad enough, lets make them feel like its all their fault and they had a choice  utter heffer dust


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

Thank god I'm a Buddhist!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

The Dog Woman said:


> Thank god I'm a Buddhist!!


AAaah now there is a religion i could dabble in


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

Well, I used to be a Devout Roman Catholic, until my Roman Catholic mother gave me a book on the subject. The rest is history.....!


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

The Dog Woman said:


> Well, I used to be a Devout Roman Catholic, until my Roman Catholic mother gave me a book on the subject. The rest is history.....!


when i was in high school i played arround with the idea of being pagen ( i was all into witches and spells, haha!) then i started reading about buddhism and i agreed with a lot of the philosophy so i 'converted'

but as i grew up i got really interested in science ( studied zoology and biology at uni) and i just came to realize that when you die you get buried and the worms eat you, you decompose into soil which feeds the grass which feeds the cows which feeds the humans.....ahhh, the circle of life!

meditating is cool though. do you know you can achieve the same states through meditation than you can through drugs? 
yes the human brain is amazing! and its totally free and you dont have to deal with drug dealers to get high!!


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> when i was in high school i played arround with the idea of being pagen ( i was all into witches and spells, haha!) then i started reading about buddhism and i agreed with a lot of the philosophy so i 'converted'


I know several Pagans and/or Wiccas who have done this. Sometimes, they combine the two, to a certain extent....



> _but as i grew up i got really interested in science ( studied zoology and biology at uni)_


You'd enjoy this book, then....



> _and i just came to realize that when you die you get buried and the worms eat you, you decompose into soil which feeds the grass which feeds the cows which feeds the humans.....ahhh, the circle of life!_


 Wel;l yes, and even according to Buddhism, that's exactly what happens - to your Body... Your Karma-driven consciousness is a different matter altogether.... but that's a whole new discussion! 



> _meditating is cool though. do you know you can achieve the same states through meditation than you can through drugs?
> yes the human brain is amazing! and its totally free and you dont have to deal with drug dealers to get high!!_


It also has no side-effects and is not noxiously addictive. And costs nothing. And can be done anywhere, any time....
It's not so much that the brain is affected - although of course, neurologically speaking, the benefits are scientifically measurable, with the right equipment. But the benefits to the _Mind_ are extraordinary....:thumbup:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> omg you are acctually mad, i could tell from your name but now you've prooved it.


I don't think I've ever come across someone who has such a bad case of diarrhoea of the mouth along with constipation of the ideas. Do you ever wonder what life would be like if you'd had enough oxygen at birth? Never mind, keep talking and maybe one day you'll say something intelligent!

I had the good manners to debate sensibly with you and I accorded you the intelligence to do the same. I won't be making that mistake again.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I quite like Buddisim and Buddist principles. You can combine some into everyday life. The idea of reincarnation is fascinating


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I don't think I've ever come across someone who has such a bad case of diarrhoea of the mouth along with constipation of the ideas. Do you ever wonder what life would be like if you'd had enough oxygen at birth? Never mind, keep talking and maybe one day you'll say something intelligent!
> 
> I had the good manners to debate sensibly with you and I accorded you the intelligence to do the same. I won't be making that mistake again.


but you are just making stuff up. thats not a fair debate.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Savahl said:


> If people are killing each other over religion they will do it over something else.
> 
> Oil
> Colour
> ...


I think you are spot on there hun!

It always strikes me as amazing that in a war, both sides can be praying to the same god, yet whichever side wins claims that they did so because god was on their side.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I think you are spot on there hun!
> 
> It always strikes me as amazing that in a war, both sides can be praying to the same god, yet whichever side wins claims that they did so because god was on their side.


First world war springs to mind most of the armies were convinced they were fighting for God. Most people just use it as an excuse for violence or bigotry


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I think you are spot on there hun!
> 
> It always strikes me as amazing that in a war, both sides can be praying to the same god, yet whichever side wins claims that they did so because god was on their side.


yes, that is because god is on no one's side. whoever wins depends usually on who has the biggest wepons and technology.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> First world war springs to mind most of the armies were convinced they were fighting for God. Most people just use it as an excuse for violence or bigotry


yes, again. 
i come from glasgow and there are 'street wars' there everytime rangers and celtic play, all in the name of catholics vs. prodistants.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> but you are just making stuff up. thats not a fair debate.




Nope. Definitely not. You do have both diarrhoea of the mouth along with constipation of the ideas. Really baaad constipation of ideas. Loads of proof of it on this thread. Not making anything up there.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm in Belfast I understand that


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Nope. Definitely not. You do have both diarrhoea of the mouth along with constipation of the ideas. Really baaad constipation of ideas. Loads of proof of it on this thread. Not making anything up there.


hold on a minit, you were the one saying you can 'see spirits' 
either you are schitzophrenic or lieing.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

demi said:


> omg you are acctually mad, i could tell from your name but now you've prooved it.





demi said:


> hold on a minit, you were the one saying you can 'see spirits'
> either you are schitzophrenic *or* lieing.


those kinds of comments are rude as f*ck.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

demi said:


> hold on a minit, you were the one saying you can 'see spirits'
> either you are schitzophrenic or lieing.


Or possible accessing a part of her brain that most of us haven't learnt to access yet


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

demi going on from what you said about science being proof...(i haven't read full thread since my last post so apologies if i repeat). using your posts as a stepping stone also, talking to whole of thread not just you. 

actually science itself is akin to religion, it takes a leap of faith to take something from being a simple theory (an idea, something no coporeal, something no one can see, gravity for example,yet can see an effect... shooting stars or planetary wobble) to it being accepted as a scientific discovery that is now deemed as the truth.

Yet we still find that many of our discoverys are wrong, either in part or completely.

gods existence can't be proven but neither can the existence of 'alien' life forms, planets similar to our own that could/do harbour life, intelligent or not.. it is a leap of faith...even now many of our theories are being debunked and re-written, just like the bible, as our knowledge and the evidence changes.

science was debunked as magic and hocus pocus until relatively recently, many scientists (and doctors) were seen as crazy, and probably burned at the stake as wizards back in the day.

there are many things that science can dis/prove, the lack of a god-like being is not one of them.

believing in something that isn't believed by everyone or isn't a touchable force is not stupid, it is faith. religions exist, science exist, belief in things that may or may not be there nd the theory on these is common to both.

scientists that have religion are not hypocrites, they are merely human, until god is proven or disproven, there is nothing wrong in believing in something that is 'theory'.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> hold on a minit, you were the one saying you can 'see spirits'
> either you are schitzophrenic or lieing.


Nope, neither. I do understand, however, that your viewpoint is so narrow that surmising the above is the only way you can get your tiny brain to deal with it.

And btw, from your comment above, you need to add schizophrenia to the long list of things you know sod all about.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> those kinds of comments are rude as f*ck.


Thanks hun! :thumbup: Was beginning to think I may be being a tad oversensitive there!


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

owieprone said:


> demi going on from what you said about science being proof...(i haven't read full thread since my last post so apologies if i repeat). using your posts as a stepping stone also, talking to whole of thread not just you.
> 
> actually science itself is akin to religion, it takes a leap of faith to take something from being a simple theory (an idea, something no coporeal, something no one can see, gravity for example,yet can see an effect... shooting stars or planetary wobble) to it being accepted as a scientific discovery that is now deemed as the truth.
> 
> ...


'alian' life forms will be proven one day, its just a matter of time before they find life on another plannet.

religion can never be proven as there is nothing to test for.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Or possible accessing a part of her brain that most of us haven't learnt to access yet


I think most of us are born being able to access it - how many kids have imaginary friends, for example - but that as we grow older and are told that what we can see and do is impossible then we stop using it and lose the skill. Fortunately for me, my gran never lost the skill and made sure that I didn't either.


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> I quite like Buddisim and Buddist principles. You can combine some into everyday life. The idea of reincarnation is fascinating


There's reincarnation - and there's re-birth.

Now, many people interchange the two. As do many Buddhists, and that's fine. But strictly speaking, if we want to discuss technical semantics - there IS a difference:

Reincarnation, strictly speaking, means becoming flesh again.

This is what Tibetan Buddhist Lamas do. They re-manifest as actual physical human beings. The Dalai Lama is one such obvious example. 
He is a reincarnation of the XIII (Previous) Dalai Lama of his Tradition.
It is considered in Tibetan Buddhism that Elevated and highly-advanced Lamas (Bhodisattvas) can do this, and they can leave clues and hints as to where their reincarnations can be located. 
These reincarnations are known as _Tulkus_, ('reborn Lamas') and although they are not precise carbon-copies of the deceased Lama, they manifest adequate and ample characteristics which go to prove their identity as a personification of the transmigrating Consciousness of the previous Lama. They also possess their *own* characteristics and personality, of course.

Rebirth is something "mere mortals" experience and it is largely left to chance (and our kamma) to define the 'realm' we will be reborn into.

Reincarnation in the strictest sense as outlined above, is limited to Tibetan Buddhist 'belief'.
Other schools of Buddhism do not ascribe to, or adhere to this principle. Other schools merely speak in terms of rebirth.

Tibetan Buddhism also speaks of the _bardo_ ('period of transition') in which we exist between dying and being reborn. usually it is a period of 49 days, but depending on the person's "worth" it might be less, or even, more. 
I personally do not adhere to this concept, either.

The terms Rebirth and reincarnation are often interchanged, even by (or even, especially by) Buddhists. But in the strictest terms, the above outlines the difference.

I hope this helps.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It does. Rebirth can be into anything right? There are different levels depending on the life before and you have a chance to move up to higher levels


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> .
> 
> religion can never be proven as there is nothing to test for.


There is if you don't dismiss all the things to test for as schizophrenia or lies.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

demi said:


> 'alian' life forms will be proven one day, its just a matter of time before they find life on another plannet.
> 
> religion can never be proven as there is nothing to test for.


religions existence isn't in dispute here, religion exists, it's GOD that isn't proven.

'alian'?

i'm not saying the won't discovered some day but just now like god they are a theory. I truly believe there are other species out there, it would be arrogant of us to believe that we are the one and only planet in how many billions of planets to be given the gift of life. after all our planet is a treasure trove of live, how can there not be another planet with even just one new creature on it?

what i was trying to put across is that currently god is a theory believed by many, like most scientific theories it is yet unproven (no theory is proven, if it was it wouldn't be a theory anymore, it would be scientific fact).

whether someone thinks god actually exists (like Liz, lmfao on 'dawkins doesn't exist' btw) to those who just hope s/he or they do, is no different from the 3 scientists who postulated that IO was volcanic and not a dead planet, until they were proven correct by pictures of it's volcanic plumes recently, or that greenland sharks are deadly predators and not simple, slow, pleasant sharks to dive with.

religions evolve, die out, pop into existence as easily as scientific theories, who are we to say that either are worthless?


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> It does. Rebirth can be into anything right? There are different levels depending on the life before and you have a chance to move up to higher levels


Yes, but these levels, or 'realms' are also taken (in today's current thinking) as allegorical representations of States of Mind.

So you have Devas, Hungry Ghosts, Animals, Humans, The Hell Realm and the Realm of the Gods... all of which are temporary, transitory and specifically discussing the gods, not omnipotent, eternal and all powerful, Just extremely privileged, but this too, has its drawbacks.....

All of these realms are also indicative of mind conditions we experience - sometimes all of them in one day!! 
It depends what 'state of mind (or Realm) you are in, at the moment of death, because that - and your Karma - will be the determining factors of the 'realm' of your next Birth.....


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

owieprone said:


> religions existence isn't in dispute here, religion exists, it's GOD that isn't proven.
> 
> 'alian'?
> 
> ...


so are you saying the theory of gravity, for example, is unproven? how is it then that we dont just all float away?


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

The Dog Woman said:


> Yes, but these levels, or 'realms' are also taken (in today's current thinking) as allegorical representations of States of Mind.
> 
> So you have Devas, Hungry Ghosts, Animals, Humans, The Hell Realm and the Realm of the Gods... all of which are temporary, transitory and specifically discussing the gods, not omnipotent, eternal and all powerful, Just extremely privileged, but this too, has its drawbacks.....
> 
> ...


And who told you all this stuff? another 'expert'


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

the differency between all the sientific theorys and the god 'theory' is that all the sientific theorys can be tested for, reapeatedly, turning out constant results thus confirming the theory.
you cant do any kind of test to see if god exists or not, because there is nothing there to test.


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## davidc (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm not religious myself, but I do like Eternal's "I Am Blessed" song. Youtube it if you've not heard it, just thought I'd mention that song as there may be some religious and also non religious people that like it.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

davidc said:


> I'm not religious myself, but I do like Eternal's "I Am Blessed" song. Youtube it if you've not heard it, just thought I'd mention that song as there may be some religious and also non religious people that like it.


i like tim minchin's song : the good book

link: YouTube - Tim Minchin- The good book


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

The Good Book Lyrics
Life is like an ocean voyage and our bodies are the ships
And without a moral compass we would all be cast adrift
So to keep us on our bearings, the Lord gave us a gift
And like most gifts you get, it was a book

I only read one book, but it's a good book, don't you know
I act the way I act because the Good Book tells me so
If I wanna known how to be good, it's to the Good Book that I go
'Cos the Good Book is a book and it is good and it's a book

I know the Good Book's good because the Good Book says it's good
I know the Good Book knows it's good because a really good book would
You wouldn't cook without a cookbook and I think it's understood
You can't be good without a Good Book 'cos it's good and it's a book
And it is good for cookin'

I tried to read some other books, but I soon gave up on that
The paragraphs ain't numbered and they complicate the facts
I can't read Harry Potter 'cos they're worshipping false gods and that
And Dumbledore's a poofter and that's bad, 'cos it's not good

Morality is written there in simple white and black
I feel sorry for you heathens, got to think about all that
Good is good and evil's bad and goats are good and pigs are crap
You'll find which one is which in the Good Book, 'cos it's good
And it's a book, and it's a book

I had a cat, she gave birth to a litter
The kittens were adorable and they made my family laugh
But as they grew they started misbehavin'
So I drowned the little ******s in the bath
When the creatures in your care start being menaces
The answers can be found right there in Genesis!
Chapter 6, Verse 5-7!

Swing your partner by the hand
Have a baby if you can
But if the voices your head
Say to sacrifice your kid
To satisfy your loving God's
Fetish for dead baby blood
It's simple fate, the Book demands
So raise that knife up in your hand!

Before the Good Book made us good, there was no good way to know
If a thing was good or not that good or kind of touch and go
So God decided he'd give writing allegoric prose a go
And so he wrote a book and it was generally well-received

The Telegraph said, "This God is reminiscent of the Norse."
The Times said, "Kind of turgid, but I liked the bit with horses."
The Mail said, "Lots of massacres, a violent tour de force.
If you only read one book this year, then this one is a book
And it is good, and it's a book!"

Swing your daughter by the hand
But if she gets raped by a man
And refuses then to marry him
Stone her to death!

If you just close your eyes and block your ears
To the accumulated knowledge of the last two thousand years
Then morally, guess what? You're off the hook
And thank Christ you only have to read one book

Just because the book's contents
Were written generations hence
By hairy desert-dwelling gents
Squatting in their dusty tents
Just because what Heaven said
Was said before they'd leavened bread
Just 'cos Jesus couldn't read
Doesn't mean that we should need
When manipulating human genes
To alleviate pain and fight disease
When deciding whether it's wrong or right
To help the dyin' let go of life
Or stop a pregnancy when it's
Just a tiny blastocyst
There's no reason why we should take a look
At any other book
But the Good Book
'Cause it's good
And it's a book
And it's a book
And it's quite good!

Good is good and evil's bad
And kids get killed when God gets mad
And you'd better take a good look
At the Good Book


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## RetroLemons (Nov 11, 2010)

demi said:


> the differency between all the sientific theorys and the god 'theory' is that all the sientific theorys can be tested for, reapeatedly, turning out constant results thus confirming the theory.
> you cant do any kind of test to see if god exists or not, because there is nothing there to test.


If God exists do you honestly believe that us being mere mortals and all  would be able to test for him!

And not all scientific theories can be tested for! I would like them to test the 'big bang' theory, because smashing those particles together still hasn't proved it  but seeing as it can't be proven I guess there is no way it could of happened!

The point is God can not be proven or disproven, you can go on about all the scientific evidence you want at the end of the day it isnt proof for Gods existence.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> so are you saying the theory of gravity, for example, is unproven? how is it then that we dont just all float away?


Of course she isn't. But some theories are unproven! That is fact.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

demi said:


> the differency between all the sientific theorys and the god 'theory' is that all the sientific theorys can be tested for, reapeatedly, turning out constant results thus confirming the theory.
> you cant do any kind of test to see if god exists or not, because there is nothing there to test.


god could turn out to be a higher intelligence from another planet. you can't rule ANYTHING out.

even constant results can be false, data in-data out, if the data in is wrong, or the assumption is wrong, or it is the wrong test, using the wrong parameters the results will mean nothing.

We are not omnipotent, as Liz pointed out pages ago just because we haven't seen something happen before doesn't mean it doesn't exist (self-creationism argument). God could live in another plane, another dimension, could be a parasite/symbiote, incoporeal, coporeal, an alien, an early human, a first human, he could as the bible says have shaped the world literally or figuratively the bible being his manual rather than his diary.

we just don't know, we cannot test for him because we do not know HOW to test for him, right now faith is all that some need. for others that leap is too far and religion is useless.

either way, at least the christian god will forgive all sins, including from what i know, denying his existence, after all he made us why would he forsake us simply because he gave us the ability to think for ourselves, question and be unique in all ways.

i really should start up my own church.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> the differency between all the sientific theorys and the god 'theory' is that all the sientific theorys can be tested for, reapeatedly, turning out constant results thus confirming the theory.
> you cant do any kind of test to see if god exists or not, because there is nothing there to test.


You keep saying there is nothing to test. This is an Ill concieved argument as it in itself cannot be proved. There is alot science has yet to discover


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> You keep saying there is nothing to test. This is an unfounded and Ill concieved argument


ok then, show me somthing that you can test scientifically that would prove god exists.


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

poohdog said:


> And who told you all this stuff? another 'expert'


No, not at all. It's part of Buddhist teaching, but you don't have to accept a jot of it, if it doesn't sit well with you, or you can't get your head round it. There are plenty of Buddhists who question rebirth and can't make their minds up, but that's ok. Buddhism doesn't have a strict doctrine which states you *Must* do this or that or the other. Discovery of whether stuff makes sense, is up to you, but you are encouraged to examine, scrutinise and study all aspects of the teachings, carefully, for yourself, before making any decisions. It's a logical thing to do....

'Faith' in Buddhism, doesn't mean 'Gee I hope it's true, even if we can't test the theory for sure'...
'Faith' in Buddhism, means having the confidence and experience to know that something is true, for you, all the while accepting that maybe for others, it's not quite so cut and dried. Buddhism means having an open Mind, not a closed one.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

demi said:


> ok then, show me somthing that you can test scientifically that would prove god exists.


err.. read my above.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

The Dog Woman said:


> 'Faith' in Buddhism, doesn't mean 'Gee I hope it's true, even if we can't test the theory for sure'...
> 'Faith' in Buddhism, means having the confidence and experience to know that something is true, for you, all the while accepting that maybe for others, it's not quite so cut and dried. Buddhism means having an open Mind, not a closed one.


that is also my understanding of it.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

owieprone said:


> god could turn out to be a higher intelligence from another planet. you can't rule ANYTHING out.
> 
> even constant results can be false, data in-data out, if the data in is wrong, or the assumption is wrong, or it is the wrong test, using the wrong parameters the results will mean nothing.
> 
> ...


scientific theorys go through riggorus and continuis testing. if the results dont match up the theory is altered.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

demi said:


> scientific theorys go through riggorus and continuis testing. if the results dont match up the theory is altered.


yes, i know, i'm a scientist.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

owieprone said:


> err.. read my above.


exactly my point. there is nothing that can be tested.


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

No, if the results don't match up, the theory is either unchanged or annihilated. If it works according to theory, then it's fact. if it doesn't work according to theory, then the theory is unproven. It's still just a theory.


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## metame (Sep 25, 2009)

demi said:


> i like tim minchin's song : the good book
> 
> link: YouTube - Tim Minchin- The good book


:001_wub: Tim Minchin.

also... 'Thank you God'


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

The Dog Woman said:


> No, if the results don't match up, the theory is either unchanged or annihilated. If it works according to theory, then it's fact. if it doesn't work according to theory, then the theory is unproven. It's still just a theory.


if it doesnt work out they dont just throw the whole thing out the window and forget about it! they alter and adapt the theory according to what results they find.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

I can't prove god, but nor can science test for the Higgs boson particle which would debunk god. Doesn't mean it is invalid as a theory.


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> if it doesnt work out they dont just throw the whole thing out the window and forget about it! they alter and adapt the theory according to what results they find.


Nope.

At least - that's not how it works in Buddhism. Which is very closely associated with science.....


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

funny!

YouTube - If Religions Were Real


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> exactly my point. there is nothing that can be tested.


You don't read. We don't care that it can't be tested right now. It's not the point as there are still things we can't understand with scientific limitations. You aren't considering the other side of the debate or answering them effectively by just blindly repeating


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

The Dog Woman said:


> Nope.
> 
> At least - that's not how it works in Buddhism. Which is very closely associated with science.....


what do you mean 'nope' ?

are you saying they do just throw it out the window and forget about it?

someone's whole lifes work down the toilet, ' oh, well never mind. ill just be a taxi driver instead of a scientist because i keep getting the worng answer' ??????????


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

i just wanted to say IF we evolved over these thousand of years how come we haven't evolved further????
we have stayed the same for years and years!

and when i say futher i mean stronger,bigger,taller,have abilities,why only use 10% of the brain????whats the other 90% for?

as i have said before i am a strong beliver in God as i'm studing the bible with jehovah's witnesses,and everything i have learn't i believe.

demi you have your theorys and beliefs and so do other people u can't tell people what they should believe in,you should respect what others think.

this thread is very very interesting :thumbup:


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

demi said:


> if it doesnt work out they dont just throw the whole thing out the window and forget about it! they alter and adapt the theory according to what results they find.


that's a very base way of looking at things.

just because we haven't developed the technology, or intelligence to test for god doesn't mean that it can't be done, it just can't be done right now. we are still children in the grand scheme of things, crocodiles have been around longer than us, while they haven't changed (they don't need to anymoer they are at their evolutionary peak) we aren't, we are still adapting, evolving and growing in all ways.

remember when the bible was written a large % of the population couldn't even read let alone knew that there were such things as bacteria, viruses, deep sea vents, dinosaurs, other galaxies. they didn't know that because they couldn't test for them, they couldn't see them.. yet they still existed.

if it wasn't for revolutionaries like archimede, pliny, newton and their forefathers! we may not be as advanced as we are now, we may or may not have a long way to go before we can answer that question and have an unarguable answer.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> You don't read. We don't care that it can't be tested right now. It's not the point as there are still things we can't understand with scientific limitations. You aren't considering the other side of the debate or answering them effectively by just blindly repeating


ok.

the new scientific theorys that are arround just now ( the ones they are still testing for) are exactly that, new. no one has been thinking about this stuff before. we havent had a lot of time to experiment and ponder and come up with the theorys, test themand adapt them. ok, this is happening now, in the 21st centery.
the 'theory' of god has been arround for 1000's of years, dont you think someone would have been able to come up with at least 1 bit of evidence supporting his existance in all this time they have had to think about it?


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

owieprone said:


> that's a very base way of looking at things.
> 
> just because we haven't developed the technology, or intelligence to test for god doesn't mean that it can't be done, it just can't be done right now. we are still children in the grand scheme of things, crocodiles have been around longer than us, while they haven't changed (they don't need to anymoer they are at their evolutionary peak) we aren't, we are still adapting, evolving and growing in all ways.
> 
> ...


exactly, we have evolved emencly over many millenia, look at all the stuff we have done. dont you thihnk we should have descovered proof of god by now?


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

blade100 said:


> i just wanted to say IF we evolved over these thousand of years how come we haven't evolved further????
> we have stayed the same for years and years!


no we haven't, the difference is our knowledge has changed, we are still evolving but it takes thousands of years to do so.. we wont' see any physical changes in our lifetime (unless by artificially influenced mutation).


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

demi said:


> exactly, we have evolved emencly over many millenia, look at all the stuff we have done. dont you thihnk we should have descovered proof of god by now?


what are you looking for?

hand prints on the earth? the god particle? his house? his signature on the earth like other artists put on their paintings?

what are we looking for? tell me what to look for and i will test for it.


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

> what do you mean 'nope' ?
> 
> are you saying they do just throw it out the window and forget about it?
> 
> someone's whole lifes work down the toilet, ' oh, well never mind. ill just be a taxi driver instead of a scientist because i keep getting the worng answer' ??????????


No, it stays a theory. if something is proven, it's fact. if it's unproven, it doesn't alter the theory. It's still theory. 
What results could possibly be found that would 'alter' a theory? You just devise and establish a new theory, not change an old one.



blade100 said:


> i just wanted to say IF we evolved over these thousand of years how come we haven't evolved further????
> we have stayed the same for years and years!
> 
> and when i say futher i mean stronger,bigger,taller,have abilities,why only use 10% of the brain????whats the other 90% for?


I'm sorry, what on earth makes you think we are not still evolving?
it's not necessary a visible measurable transition, but we are still in the process of evolving, but we're talking thousands of years, not "years and years and years"....
And where is your assertion that we only use 10% of the brain form?
I think you need to quote sources if you present information like that. i'd be interested in seeing the whole of the findings...


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## RetroLemons (Nov 11, 2010)

blade100 said:


> i just wanted to say IF we evolved over these thousand of years how come we haven't evolved further????
> we have stayed the same for years and years!


Due the amount of time it takes a species to naturally evolve we won't see it. I do believe however that the human race, thinking of the UK as different environments will effect different people, has gotten taller on average over 100's of years. 

ETA: Dont quote me on that lol


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

demi said:


> exactly, we have evolved emencly over many millenia, look at all the stuff we have done. dont you thihnk we should have descovered proof of god by now?


But we have had brains since dot yet we still have very little understanding of them and only use a small percentage.

Do you not accept that in time science may learn how to unlock areas of our brains/consciousness and discover that telepathy is achievable for all etc etc.

Take that idea and then add the highly likely "theory" that there are other life forms on other planets who may have evolved more than us/ differently to us.

You could then take that down a path that might explain paranormal activity, mediums etc. Then further to explain a "higher order" on another planet or a "god".

It's not that inconcievable IMO.

Look at what computer technology now achieves and that has developed at a ridiculous speed because people followed a theory, proved it and then went with it.

Sorry i am not a particularly scientific person so my descriptions may be over simplistic but i understand what i am saying


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> But we have had brains since dot yet we still have very little understanding of them and only use a small percentage.
> 
> Do you not accept that in time science may learn how to unlock areas of our brains/consciousness and discover that telepathy is achievable for all etc etc.
> 
> ...


exactly, we have only just discovered that there are 3 species of elephant and not 2, we are discovering 'new' things on earth or things we thought were extinct all the time, yet we've lived here for millenia.

until we know all there is to know about earth, the surrounding planets, galaxy etc then i think the answer to the existence of god(s) will elude us.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

Its an old theory, yes, but that doesnt mean we have had or even have now, the capabilities to test and prove it. Doesnt make it not so. Just outside of our capabilities at the moment.

As such we cant prove or disprove it.

What annoys me about hard and fast atheists is the arrogance that we know it all already - science isnt done growing. There are still things we cant do... thats the point of science. In 1000 years we will probably be able to test things we cant test now because we can gain access to other dimensions, elements, particles, wavelengths, soundwaves that we currently cannot.

Science doesnt provide access to all these things, like it cannot provide access to the "god particle". So it is conceivable that there are other things that we have no access to - like evidence of a greater being.

I dont understand why that is so hard to accept?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

owieprone said:


> exactly, we have only just discovered that there are 3 species of elephant and not 2, we are discovering 'new' things on earth or things we thought were extinct all the time, yet we've lived here for millenia.
> 
> until we know all there is to know about earth, the surrounding planets, galaxy etc then i think the answer to the existence of god(s) will elude us.


Glad someone understood my waffle :lol:

Have to say even made myself think


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

blade100 said:


> i just wanted to say IF we evolved over these thousand of years how come we haven't evolved further????
> we have stayed the same for years and years!
> 
> and when i say futher i mean stronger,bigger,taller,have abilities,why only use 10% of the brain????whats the other 90% for?
> ...


haha, im glad your enjoying the thred, i know i am 

just now we have evolved to a point where we a well suited to our enviroment. it takes millions of years to evolve, little bits at a time, so you wouldnt see the changes in your lifetime. 
as for the brain, we may have been using much more of our brain in the past but now as we use technology everyday and no longer need our animal instincts we dont need to use so much of our brain anymore.

there is an outstanding amount of proof for evolution, more than enough to classify evolution as a fact, a proven theory.

just look at dogs for example. they are a grate representation of evolution over a very short time scale. humans have selectivly bread dogs to posess particular traits and over many generations have created a new breed.
if we can do this artificially with dogs, we know it happenes naturally in the wild. nature selects the strongest genes to survive through changing habitats.
garaffs are another good example of evolution. the ones with the silghtly taller necks could reach higher branches and got more to eat, were stronger and passed their genes onto the next generation. generation after generation they passes on the tall neck gene and slowly their necks got longer and longer.

also if you look at embrios we all start out life in the same way. human fetuses have a tail to begin with and loose it later on in the womb.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

We arent evolving so drastically because we have no need to really - our diets havent altered dramatically. Nor have we had to "fight" for survival, as civilised society exists.

There are evidences however in places like japan for example, where more recent generations have suddenly become taller due to a dramatic dietry change from fish and rice to the increase of "western" food.

Changes are just very slow


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> But we have had brains since dot yet we still have very little understanding of them and only use a small percentage.
> 
> Do you not accept that in time science may learn how to unlock areas of our brains/consciousness and discover that telepathy is achievable for all etc etc.
> 
> ...


i disagree.
yes, the brain is very complex but i do not belive, as much as it would be cool if it could happen, in telepathy or any other 'paranormal' stuff.
this is all made up by people like john edwoods just to scam people out of money.


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

Savahl said:


> There are evidences however in places like japan for example, where more recent generations have suddenly become taller due to a dramatic dietry change from fish and rice to the increase of "western" food.


That's not evolution, that's dietary influence, and not really anything to do with evolution.

Evolution is that we are steadily losing out 5th toe. Many people have a 5th toe that, standing up in bare feet, doesn't touch the floor.
Some 5th toes curl inwards, almost sideways. That's because they're becoming vestigial - like the spurs on a snake, for example.
In about another 300,000 years, we'll only have 4 toes.....


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

The Dog Woman said:


> That's not evolution, that's dietary influence, and not really anything to do with evolution.
> 
> Evolution is that we are steadily losing out 5th toe. Many people have a 5th toe that, standing up in bare feet, doesn't touch the floor.
> Some 5th toes curl inwards, almost sideways. That's because they're becoming vestigial - like the spurs on a snake, for example.
> In about another 300,000 years, we'll only have 4 toes.....


Fair enough.

I was always led to believe the lil toe was for balance. Obviously not if most people dont have them reach the floor! Mine does but I have freaky monkey feet.


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## RetroLemons (Nov 11, 2010)

The Dog Woman said:


> That's not evolution, that's dietary influence, and not really anything to do with evolution.
> 
> Evolution is that we are steadily losing out 5th toe. Many people have a 5th toe that, standing up in bare feet, doesn't touch the floor.
> Some 5th toes curl inwards, almost sideways. That's because they're becoming vestigial - like the spurs on a snake, for example.
> In about another 300,000 years, we'll only have 4 toes.....


Thats really interesting! Thanks


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

The Dog Woman said:


> That's not evolution, that's dietary influence, and not really anything to do with evolution.
> 
> Evolution is that we are steadily losing out 5th toe. Many people have a 5th toe that, standing up in bare feet, doesn't touch the floor.
> Some 5th toes curl inwards, almost sideways. That's because they're becoming vestigial - like the spurs on a snake, for example.
> In about another 300,000 years, we'll only have 4 toes.....


actually it is.

diet is very important in evolution, if it wasn't for our forefathers deciding to eat fish, we may be akin to apes right now, our bodies used it to boost our brain power. this is of course a theory, but a good one, with solid evidence behind it.

everything we do is important to evolution as it changes how our body reacts, it gives our bodys something to evolve to do.

5 fingers, 5 toes, 2 eyes, height, lenght of limbs, type of internal organs, shape of internal organs, efficacy or redundancy of said organs.

if it wasn't for what we did and ate and the challenges we face we wouldn't evolve at all.

We have grown weaker of the last couple of hundred years, but taller due to work types and food eaten. We have a better immune system due to vaccines but more diseases due to species cross-over and human influence and populatin intermingling.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> Its an old theory, yes, but that doesnt mean we have had or even have now, the capabilities to test and prove it. Doesnt make it not so. Just outside of our capabilities at the moment.
> 
> As such we cant prove or disprove it.
> 
> ...


i can see your point. science and technology are advancing at an outstanding pase. but your missing the point that with every new scientific descovery we dirft futher and futher away from religion.
for me anyway, every book i read on quantum physics, evolution or whatever, with all the new information i learn and understand about the universe, it just makes the concept of god less and less plausable.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

owieprone said:


> actually it is.
> 
> diet is very important in evolution, if it wasn't for our forefathers deciding to eat fish, we may be akin to apes right now, our bodies used it to boost our brain power. this is of course a theory, but a good one, with solid evidence behind it.
> 
> ...


That was my train of thought. Biology isnt my forte though so wasnt sure if i was talking rubbish! More of a physics gal me!


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

owieprone said:


> actually it is.
> 
> diet is very important in evolution, if it wasn't for our forefathers deciding to eat fish, we may be akin to apes right now, our bodies used it to boost our brain power. this is of course a theory, but a good one, with solid evidence behind it.
> 
> ...


 i agree


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

demi said:


> i can see your point. science and technology are advancing at an outstanding pase. but your missing the point that with every new scientific descovery we dirft futher and futher away from religion.
> for me anyway, every book i read on quantum physics, evolution or whatever, with all the new information i learn and understand about the universe, it just makes the concept of god less and less plausable.


why?

even god needs to have rules to follow, if he designed us, why can't he have designed the foundations for everything to follow? the laws of physics, an essential part of the universe, which seems to be followed by everything in our solar system at least.

why does our advancement in science mean that it has nothing to do with the creator of it all?


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

fair do's.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> i can see your point. science and technology are advancing at an outstanding pase. but your missing the point that with every new scientific descovery we dirft futher and futher away from religion.
> for me anyway, every book i read on quantum physics, evolution or whatever, with all the new information i learn and understand about the universe, it just makes the concept of god less and less plausable.


 "LESS PLAUSIBLE" Plausibility is the key in this statement. I think the existance of a god isn't plausible. However, I cannot say 100% that it is all a load of tosh, simply because weighing up the evidence for and against isnt definitive. Until we can prove there is or isnt a god, I can not say.

Therefore I will debate about it, but I would never dream of telling someone of faith they are absolutely, unquestionable, wrong. I just believe it to be less plausible than the earth being a happy coincidence of physics.


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> i can see your point. science and technology are advancing at an outstanding pase. but your missing the point that with every new scientific descovery we dirft futher and futher away from religion.
> for me anyway, every book i read on quantum physics, evolution or whatever, with all the new information i learn and understand about the universe, it just makes the concept of god less and less plausable.


Go all the way to the bottom of this article and read the last paragraph. It states God may indeed be provable....
Then read the article.

Fascinating!


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

There will always be that chance that another being designed all this. Placed the earth in exactly the right place in order to cultivate life. We could be another beings big experimentation - like a chemist growing a bacteria culture on a little tray


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Savahl said:


> There will always be that chance that another being designed all this. Placed the earth in exactly the right place in order to cultivate life. We could be another beings big experimentation - like growing a bacteria culture.


yes i look forward to the day to finding out we are some kids science experiment.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

demi said:


> i disagree.
> yes, the brain is very complex but i do not belive, as much as it would be cool if it could happen, in telepathy or any other 'paranormal' stuff.
> this is all made up by people like john edwoods just to scam people out of money.


Of course people will always use stuff to fleece/fool the GP and thats the same with God and religion but to dismiss the possibilities i outlined IMO is to do science a huge diservice really  Think about stuff like electricity and radio waves etc (again apologies for my very non scientific language) that would once have been seen as a huge flight of fanciful nonsense. There are many forces that we have gained knowledge on through scientific study that would have once seemed incredulous so why not brain power


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

owieprone said:


> yes i look forward to the day to finding out we are some kids science experiment.


Or we could just be the whos living on a tiny speck


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Or we could just be the whos living on a tiny speck


or we're in some cats bauble on it's collar and someone plays marbles with us.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

owieprone said:


> why?
> 
> even god needs to have rules to follow, if he designed us, why can't he have designed the foundations for everything to follow? the laws of physics, an essential part of the universe, which seems to be followed by everything in our solar system at least.
> 
> why does our advancement in science mean that it has nothing to do with the creator of it all?


to me it just seems like a compleatly rediculus concept. there is so much flaw with religions, they all contradict each other. why are there so many different ones? whats the right one? if god gave us free will then whats the point in beliving in him and being religious? whats the point on going to church and all that goes with it, if we have free will we shouldnt need to.
and the bible is just full of stories written down by people long after jesus died. stories which had not been written down beofre but been passed on by word of mouth over many generations. ( we have all heard of chineese whispers) .
and they keep finding others scriptures that should of been in the bible but were discarded because they were written by women or the people who were deciding what went into the bible didnt like what it said. so we know that it is not the word of god but the word of man. men who have cherry picked the bits they wanted to go in. and the bible is homophobic, sexist and morally outragous and does not fit in with todays modern world.
i really could go on for ever .


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

YouTube - Tim Minchin - Storm


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> to me it just seems like a compleatly rediculus concept. there is so much flaw with religions, they all contradict each other. why are there so many different ones? whats the right one? if god gave us free will then whats the point in beliving in him and being religious? whats the point on going to church and all that goes with it, if we have free will we shouldnt need to.
> and the bible is just full of stories written down by people long after jesus died. stories which had not been written down beofre but been passed on by word of mouth over many generations. ( we have all heard of chineese whispers) .
> and they keep finding others scriptures that should of been in the bible but were discarded because they were written by women or the people who were deciding what went into the bible didnt like what it said. so we know that it is not the word of god but the word of man. men who have cherry picked the bits they wanted to go in. and the bible is homophobic, sexist and morally outragous and does not fit in with todays modern world.
> i really could go on for ever .


You're confusing religion with God, aren't you?
The two are not necessarily mutually compatible, are they?


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

The bible isnt proof that there is no god. If anything it is flawed because it is written by people who are flawed. It reflects their own views and opinions and concepts. A god may have had nothing to do with these philosophies. Doesnt mean it doesnt exist... it may be that he doesnt involve himself in earthly affairs.

All the issues regarding the bible and other scriptures are to do with RELIGION. not god. I think the two are independant issue. One is god, the other is mans interpretation of god.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

The Dog Woman said:


> You're confusing religion with God, aren't you?
> The two are not necessarily mutually compatible, are they?


so your saying all religions are wrong but god still exists?


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

The Dog Woman said:


> You're confusing religion with God, aren't you?
> The two are not necessarily mutually compatible, are they?


beat me to it.

And more concisely


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

Mon point precisely.....


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

The Dog Woman said:


> Mon point precisely.....


I would give you bad rep for stealing my thoughts! But i good rep you anyway, im that nice


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> The bible isnt proof that there is no god. If anything it is flawed because it is written by people who are flawed. It reflects their own views and opinions and concepts. A god may have had nothing to do with these philosophies. Doesnt mean it doesnt exist... it may be that he doesnt involve himself in earthly affairs.
> 
> All the issues regarding the bible and other scriptures are to do with RELIGION. not god. I think the two are independant issue. One is god, the other is mans interpretation of god.


religion and god to together hand in hand. without religion their would be no concept of god.
god/religions are ancient philosophies, like blood letting, it doent mean its right. we need to step up into the 21st centuary and shed these ancient belifes


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

demi said:


> to me it just seems like a compleatly rediculus concept. there is so much flaw with religions, they all contradict each other. why are there so many different ones? whats the right one? if god gave us free will then whats the point in beliving in him and being religious? whats the point on going to church and all that goes with it, if we have free will we shouldnt need to.
> and the bible is just full of stories written down by people long after jesus died. stories which had not been written down beofre but been passed on by word of mouth over many generations. ( we have all heard of chineese whispers) .
> and they keep finding others scriptures that should of been in the bible but were discarded because they were written by women or the people who were deciding what went into the bible didnt like what it said. so we know that it is not the word of god but the word of man. men who have cherry picked the bits they wanted to go in. and the bible is homophobic, sexist and morally outragous and does not fit in with todays modern world.
> i really could go on for ever .


well some would say, that's the whole point!

god may actually exist or he may not. to believers he exists.. even if it is merely in their heads he still exists. no matter the religion, to some extent each and very god exists because they are believed in, their biographies, personalities and the gods own beliefs as handed down via the stories are real, they exists because someone chooses to follow them.

while they may not be actual people and may never have existed as you or i do as a person with a mind and body, they are a real 'being' in some sense.

people believe in gods to give their life meaning, to allow them to have someone to turn to, to believe in something greater than themselves and give them the possiblity of salvation from the hell of their lives.

gods were dreamnt up when no one knew about bacteria, viruses, amoebas how the body healed itself, what caused cancers and other diseases, why vocanoes erupted, why storms appeared, avalanches, mudslides, earthquakes all manner of natural disasters.. gods were invented to explain them.

gods have given way to knowledge and understanding, to science, but that still doesn't mean that there wasn't a creator, it could by physics but it could we could still be an unnatural phenomenon cooked up by someone.

there are flaws in religious writtings and ideas because we are flawed, if there is a god(s) then they can correct as necessary when they deem us worthy of knowing, until then we can continue making it up as we go along and hoping that the morals and ethics we are trying to instil via religion stick even if the stories are non-sensical at times.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

demi said:


> so your saying all religions are wrong but god still exists?


stop being so childish, you know that is not what they are saying.


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> religion and god to together hand in hand. without religion their would be no concept of god.
> god/religions are ancient philosophies, like blood letting, it doent mean its right. we need to step up into the 21st centuary and shed these ancient belifes


"If God did not exist, we would find it necessary to invent him". 
Voltaire.

"It should be no more incredible to be born twice, than it was to be born once."
Voltaire (again!)

"Man is the only creature on earth, that prays. 
or needs to."
(I have no idea who said this - but it resonates!)


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

owieprone said:


> well some would say, that's the whole point!
> 
> god may actually exist or he may not. to believers he exists.. even if it is merely in their heads he still exists. no matter the religion, to some extent each and very god exists because they are believed in, their biographies, personalities and the gods own beliefs as handed down via the stories are real, they exists because someone chooses to follow them.
> 
> ...


just like santa!


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

owieprone said:


> stop being so childish, you know that is not what they are saying.


i acctually did think thats what they ment.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

Im throwing in the towel.


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

Or Unicorns or the Easter Bunny!


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

demi said:


> i acctually did think thats what they ment.


not being funny, how old are you?

exactly like santa, and fairies and the easter bunny and my god.

i made him up to suit me, i have other gods.. also known as dictators... Gruber and Kawai are their names, a car and a rat respectively.. they rule my life and demand feitly and offerings, and prayers are often used to placate.


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

Savahl said:


> I would give you bad rep for stealing my thoughts! But i good rep you anyway, im that nice


You are, that's for sure. 



demi said:


> so your saying all religions are wrong but god still exists?


I'm saying all Religions are engineered by men, but God is not something it is skilful to speculate about., It's a complete waste of time, as this thread bears out. How many posts later are we still none the wiser, with all sides arguing ther corners?

According to what I personally follow, there are fouur definite Unconjecturables. That is to say, four specific topics Buddhists are encouraged to NOT waste time trying to fathom out. My posts earlier spoke of scrutiny and insightful examination of everything, thoroughly, before accepting it as a personal truth. And that faith, in Buddhism, refers to Confidence, not Hope.
But these four things are best left alone.

What it's like to be a Buddha
What the origins of the Universe (is there a God?) are, precisely.
What deep meditation by an enlightened being is like
And how karma works, exactly.

So really, as far as I am concerned, it really doesn't matter whether God exists or not. It's pointless speculating. It's unanswerable.

Better to live AS IF he did, though, even if you discount the idea entirely.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

we're not arguing dear, we're debating.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

"I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance"
Socrates. (somewhere around 390BC)


No truer word has been spoken about the human condition, both then and now


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Savahl said:


> "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance"
> Socrates. (somewhere around 390BC)
> 
> No truer word has been spoken about the human condition, both then and now


"my ignorance amuses me"

baddie, tomb raider.

i'm constantly amused by peoples ignorance. course i'm not amused by my own..i'm never ignorant.... aw..DAMMIT!


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

owieprone said:


> we're not arguing dear, we're debating.


I realise....

'Arguing their corners' was just a turn of phrase... 

But earlier, personal insults and _ad hominem_ attacks meant that some had left the debating arena and made it personal, and it got to arguing.
But my point is that sound debate is ultimately fruitful. Usually, in debate there is a subject being debated that has sound foundations to begin with.
Such as the subject of vegetarianism or abortion, or whether neutering male dogs is an entirely good idea.... that kind of thing... One side may ultimately sway the other, over time.... 
The existence of God has no solid foundation and is speculation, which is why the debate will never get anywhere, unless one side throws up a convincing enough "argument" to convince the other side that this is more than a possibility.

That was my main point. :001_cool:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> scientific theorys go through riggorus and continuis testing. if the results dont match up the theory is altered.


yes - this is true. That's why the big bang theory is still an theory and not a fact. That is why global warming is still a theory and not a fact.

Or, to go futher back, early scientists thought the world was flat. Many prominent figures expounded the flat earth theory. Many expounded it as a fact. But scientists did not close their minds and say there was nothing to test. They found things to test and, as we gained more knowledge, the scientific "fact" of a flat earth was disproved. And before you laugh, tghe flat earth theory may seem silly to us now, with our present knowledge, but just think how silly some of our theories are going to seem to people in the future.

Thank goodness true scientists don't share your opinion that there is nothing to test. In years to come, who knows what knowledge we will gain as they continue to disprove the "facts" of today?

Alexander Pope said that " little learning is a dangerous thing" - you, sweetie, are the epitome of this sentiment.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

owieprone said:


> we're not arguing dear, we're debating.


Too right :thumbup:

I keep reading this thread each night its been really good

TOP DEBATE :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> i can see your point. science and technology are advancing at an outstanding pase. but your missing the point that with every new scientific descovery we dirft futher and futher away from religion.
> for me anyway, every book i read on quantum physics, evolution or whatever, with all the new information i learn and understand about the universe, it just makes the concept of god less and less plausable.


Why does any scientific discovery make the concept of god less plausible? Why is the discovery of gravity (to use one of your favourite examples) not perfectly compatible with the concept of a creator? If there is a creator, why isn't is plausible that he created gravity (or all the components that come together to bring about the force of gravity)?

btw - while we are talking about gravity and linking back to your earlier posts when you insist it is a fact and not a theory - have you read this about experiments that have been made that actually discount Einstein's Theory of Relativity :

Uncommon Knowledge : New Science of Gravity, Light, the Origin of Life, and the Mind of Man by Al McDowell | FiledBy

Just one example of where new findings are questioning your "proven facts" (ie what most of the rest of the world call theories!)

ETA sorry Owieprone - I posted this before I read your post 806 and realised you had already made the same point about god and science - great minds think alike eh?


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## blade100 (Aug 24, 2009)

owieprone said:


> or we're in some cats bauble on it's collar and someone plays marbles with us.


you've seen men in black!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> so your saying all religions are wrong but god still exists?


There are many religions. Whether they are right or wrong depends purely upon personal experience.

There are also many gods and goddesses. More religions in this world are polytheistic than monotheistic.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

owieprone said:


> not being funny, how old are you?
> 
> exactly like santa, and fairies and the easter bunny and my god.
> 
> i made him up to suit me, i have other gods.. also known as dictators... Gruber and Kawai are their names, a car and a rat respectively.. they rule my life and demand feitly and offerings, and prayers are often used to placate.


haha! 

im 25 years young.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Why does any scientific discovery make the concept of god less plausible? Why is the discovery of gravity (to use one of your favourite examples) not perfectly compatible with the concept of a creator? If there is a creator, why isn't is plausible that he created gravity (or all the components that come together to bring about the force of gravity)?
> 
> btw - while we are talking about gravity and linking back to your earlier posts when you insist it is a fact and not a theory - have you read this about experiments that have been made that actually discount Einstein's Theory of Relativity :
> 
> ...


ok i just had a look at this link you posted.

for a start, its not from a credibal academic site, that imediatly rings alarm bells.

looking at reviews of the auther and the book, i can see that this is some fundamentalist religious person trying to encorperate religion with 'science' 
hes talking about 'ethers' and 'phsycic powers' mixed in with sientific jargen to make it sound plausable.

load of crap, in my opinion. but if you choose to believe this rubbish thats up to you.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

demi said:


> ok i just had a look at this link you posted.
> 
> for a start, its not from a credibal academic site, that imediatly rings alarm bells.
> 
> ...


Feel free to start a science thread :thumbup: this ones religion  and the more you disrespect people here the less your opinion matters to me for one.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> There are many religions. Whether they are right or wrong depends purely upon personal experience.
> 
> There are also many gods and goddesses. More religions in this world are polytheistic than monotheistic.


well that doesnt make sense.....unless there are many gods who all created the world at the same time....joint effort!

whither a religion is right or wrong depends on personal experiance?

so whats right for you is wrong for me? so who created the world i live in then? 
all religions contradict each other. what one to believe???? if they are all right then there must be many different gods. or only 1 is right and the rest of the world is wrong. or there all wrong....... mmmmmm..... its a tough one......


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> *well that doesnt make sense.....unless there are many gods who all created the world at the same time....joint effort! *
> 
> whither a religion is right or wrong depends on personal experiance?
> 
> ...


The polytheistic religions dont just assume a joint effort, there are gods for different things - fertlity, creation, maintenance....

Hinduism for example, Brahma is the god of creation. Vishnu - maintenance./ there is also one for wisdom, wealth. You are thinking about it from a purely christian PoV.
Im sure you already knew that, in which case I dont understand why you even said that/

Also you assume that god is a thing that is within our field of experiance... like he is a tangable concept. This may not be the case - God may be bore of philosophical thought, or belief. God may be an experience. God may be a feeling. God may be a set of beliefs. Its all very conceptual. You are oversimplifying the concept of a "god" that is totally out of our observable universe imo.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

demi said:


> whither a religion is right or wrong depends on personal experiance?
> 
> so whats right for you is wrong for me?


You're right, it doesn't make sense. You cannot have conflicting relgions all being right. They could, logically speaking, all be wrong, but they cannot possibly all be right.

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> You're right, it doesn't make sense. You cannot have conflicting relgions all being right. They could, logically speaking, all be wrong, but they cannot possibly all be right.
> 
> Liz


Only christians think that. Other, older, more established religions are quite happy to accept that there are many different pathways, many different gods and goddesses. The christian god is the only one who throws his toys out of his pram if you don't worship anyone but him.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> .
> 
> load of crap, in my opinion. but if you choose to believe this rubbish thats up to you.


When you are mature enough to formulate an argument without insult, I will reply.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

demi said:


> well that doesnt make sense.....unless there are many gods who all created the world at the same time....joint effort!
> 
> whither a religion is right or wrong depends on personal experiance?
> 
> ...


I see your knowledge of religion is as limited as your knowledge of science.


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

Someone here is a Troll..... anyone care to figure out precisely who that is.....?:confused1:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Only christians think that. Other, older, more established religions are quite happy to accept that there are many different pathways, many different gods and goddesses. The christian god is the only one who throws his toys out of his pram if you don't worship anyone but him.


If even one religion proclaims itself to be the only true one then, in simply logical terms, either that religion is correct and all others are false, or that religion is false and therefore it is not true that all religions are true.

In fact of course it is not only Christianity that declares itself to be the only true religion. Islam thinks exactly the same thing about itself.

Liz


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

lizward said:


> You're right, it doesn't make sense. You cannot have conflicting relgions all being right. They could, logically speaking, all be wrong, but they cannot possibly all be right.
> 
> Liz


thank you liz


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2011)

All I am saying is that because religion is a human invention, it can be wrong. It can be faulted. But the faults in a human interpreted religion, doesnt dispprove the existance of a god.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> The polytheistic religions dont just assume a joint effort, there are gods for different things - fertlity, creation, maintenance....
> 
> Hinduism for example, Brahma is the god of creation. Vishnu - maintenance./ there is also one for wisdom, wealth. You are thinking about it from a purely christian PoV.
> Im sure you already knew that, in which case I dont understand why you even said that/
> ...


if every religion is right then every god must exist. that is that every hindu god, buddhist god, christion god, muslim god and all those other gods that other more minor societies have ( like tribes in the jungle ) .
and concidering, as was said before, that the christions and muslims believe their god is the only one, they must all be up there fighting for first place.

the concept of god is entiarly man made. every culture having a different storys and different gods.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> All I am saying is that because religion is a human invention, it can be wrong. It can be faulted. But the faults in a human interpreted religion, doesnt dispprove the existance of a god.


ok some people may think that you cannot disprove the existance of god, even if all the scriptures and everything written by man is wrong.

but for me it is just not somthing i can except as possible. my way of thinking just doesnt allow it. i see all the factual evidence and nothing points me in that direction, if anything it points me futher away from the concept of god.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2011)

demi said:


> ok some people may think that you cannot disprove the existance of god, even if all the scriptures and everything written by man is wrong.
> 
> but for me it is just not somthing i can except as possible. my way of thinking just doesnt allow it. i see all the factual evidence and nothing points me in that direction, if anything it points me futher away from the concept of god.


I think we disagree so much because we have totally different concept of "God".

To me god is a seperate issue to religion. I do not follow any religion, I probably never will. But I see religion as a human creation. An old philosophy to answer the issues of society at the time, evolving and changing to suit.

God, if one exists, must be so alien to our senses, that I would not even attempt to prove or disprove its existance. I dont know if this existance would have any interaction with our mere existance, or if it could have any communication.

Basically I am aware of our own ignorance of the universe. What we dont know could fill another universe  So I would not discount anything.

Also, dont speak as though i ignore scientific facts. I believe in evolution, I follow the theory of the big bang, I think CO2 emmissions contribute to global warming. Hell, I deal with science every day of my life, manipulating the miracle of electrical generation and manipulation. 
I am just happy to accept my own ignorance, and the ignorance of science, where the universe and universes are concerned. And so is science....otherwise it'd stop.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> I think we disagree so much because we have totally different concept of "God".
> 
> To me god is a seperate issue to religion. I do not follow any religion, I probably never will. But I see religion as a human creation. An old philosophy to answer the issues of society at the time, evolving and changing to suit.
> 
> ...


ok, i can understand your point. theres so much we dont know so we cant rule anything out for definate.

but again when it comes to 'god' , there is just no way i can except this as a possibility. i am compleatly athiest ( after going through my teenage years 'experimenting' with religious concepts) i dont agree with psycics or voodoo or homeopathy or any kind of gods or spirits or anything magical. i believe in what i can see and what can be proven. and if someone can prove to me that any of the above things exist through scientific testing THEN i will alter my opinion based on the findings of the results. but until then im only going with hard evidence and facts and not unproven philosophies.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2011)

demi said:


> ok, i can understand your point. theres so much we dont know so we cant rule anything out for definate.
> 
> but again when it comes to 'god' , there is just no way i can except this as a possibility. i am compleatly athiest ( after going through my teenage years 'experimenting' with religious concepts) i dont agree with psycics or voodoo or homeopathy or any kind of gods or spirits or anything magical. i believe in what i can see and what can be proven. and if someone can prove to me that any of the above things exist through scientific testing THEN i will alter my opinion based on the findings of the results. but until then im only going with hard evidence and facts and not unproven philosophies.


I am the same. Only I insist on proof from both sides. You cannot prove there is no god, ergo I cannot come to that conclusion.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> I am the same. Only I insist on proof from both sides. You cannot prove there is no god, ergo I cannot come to that conclusion.


for me i conclude that there is no god unless it can be proven otherwise  ( which it cant, at least not at this moment in time )


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

demi said:


> for me i conclude that there is no god unless it can be proven otherwise  ( which it cant, at least not at this moment in time )


so do you only believe in the science that can be proven?


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

mumof6 said:


> so do you only believe in the science that can be proven?


yes, and i am open to new theorys which are in the prosess of undergoing rigerous testing to prove if they are true or not. i ajust my views based on the scientific results, results from credibal scientific institutions. not results from quacks like 'jillian mckeith' .


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

demi said:


> yes, and i am open to new theorys which are in the prosess of undergoing rigerous testing to prove if they are true or not. i ajust my views based on the scientific results, results from credibal scientific institutions. not results from quacks like 'jillian mckeith' .


5 things that canât be proven by science but are still rational to have beliefs about | 22 Words

this is interesting


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Savahl said:


> What do you make of the higgs boson?


i was discussing this acctually with my husband and he thinks its a waste of money. but i think its an important progression forward for physics, the more we can learn about how stuff works the better we can improve our technology and progress forward as a sociaty. we might learn somthing that will save the human race and the plannet in the furtue. somthing so valuble that we couldnt servive without. this is why science is so important.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

mumof6 said:


> 5 things that canât be proven by science but are still rational to have beliefs about | 22 Words
> 
> this is interesting


haha 

sorry im not buying it


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> if every religion is right then every god must exist. that is that every hindu god, buddhist god, christion god, muslim god and all those other gods that other more minor societies have ( like tribes in the jungle ) .
> and concidering, as was said before, that the christions and muslims believe their god is the only one, they must all be up there fighting for first place.


St Peter is showing a new member up in heaven, and is showing him where everything is....
"Over here, we have the Muslims...poor things, they don't know which way east is now.... And over here, in the Divine treasury, we have the Jews... nice bunch, in spite of everything...here we have the baptists... had to provide them with a really big pool... rastas in here... don't go in if you don't smoke - you'll be high as a kite in minutes! And over here...."
The new member interrupts.
"Tell me, what's behind there?" he asks, pointing to a high stone wall.
"Shhhh!!" beckons Peter, nervously, pulling him away from the wall, "keep your voice down, for Pity's sake! behind that wall, are the Roman Catholics!!"
"Really??" whispers the newbie, in amazement.
"Shhh, yes!"
"Why are they segregated?"
"They're not - they just like to think they're the only ones here!"


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> If even one religion proclaims itself to be the only true one then, in simply logical terms, either that religion is correct and all others are false, or that religion is false and therefore it is not true that all religions are true./COLOR]
> Liz




The part in red is logically correct.

The part in green is not. To be logically correct, the part in green should read "and religions who claim there are many true religions are true".

So to be a logical statement, the full statement should be:

If even one religion proclaims itself to be the only true one, then either that religion is correct and all others are false, or that religion is false and religions who claim there are many true religions are true


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Savahl said:


> All I am saying is that because religion is a human invention, it can be wrong. It can be faulted. But the faults in a human interpreted religion, doesnt dispprove the existance of a god.


Its not a human invention  It might have been altered a bit like by chinese whispers, but weeeeee didn't invent it we just passed the 'messages' along


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

The Dog Woman said:


> St Peter is showing a new member up in heaven, and is showing him where everything is....
> "Over here, we have the Muslims...poor things, they don't know which way east is now.... And over here, in the Divine treasury, we have the Jews... nice bunch, in spite of everything...here we have the baptists... had to provide them with a really big pool... rastas in here... don't go in if you don't smoke - you'll be high as a kite in minutes! And over here...."
> The new member interrupts.
> "Tell me, what's behind there?" he asks, pointing to a high stone wall.
> ...


hehe  funny


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Its not a human invention  It might have been altered a bit like by chinese whispers, but weeeeee didn't invent it we just passed the 'messages' along


uh hu , sure you did


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> The part in red is logically correct.
> 
> The part in green is not. To be logically correct, the part in green should read "and religions who claim there are many true religions are true".
> 
> ...


but how do you know what one is true and what one is false?? what are you going to do if you've got the wrong one?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

GoldenShadow said:


> *Its not a human invention*  It might have been altered a bit like by chinese whispers, but weeeeee didn't invent it we just passed the 'messages' along


I think you'll find it is.

And we all know what happens with Chinese whispers, eg. start telling the story of Robin Hood and end up with the story of Snow White.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I think you'll find it is.
> 
> And we all know what happens with Chinese whispers, eg. start telling the story of Robin Hood and end up with the story of Snow White.


exactly ! :thumbup:


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

demi said:


> uh hu , sure you did


What do you mean, sure I did what?



Happy Paws said:


> I think you'll find it is.
> 
> And we all know what happens with Chinese whispers, eg. start telling the story of Robin Hood and end up with the story of Snow White.


Well being religious and having grown up in that way that's not how any of the religious side of my family/the religious people I know think, so no we don't think its a human invention


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> What do you mean, sure I did what?


i dont mean 'you' personally. you as in people, or specificlly religious people.

and 'sure you did' as in sure you passed on messages from 'god'


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

demi said:


> i dont mean 'you' personally. you as in people, or specificlly religious people.
> 
> and 'sure you did' as in sure you passed on messages from 'god'


Haha oh right. I get you 

I don't even believe in all those stories and don't exactly follow most xtian teachings but from a xtianity point of view it wasn't a human invention which was all I meant


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> If even one religion proclaims itself to be the only true one, then either that religion is correct and all others are false, or that religion is false and religions who claim there are many true religions are true


If even one religion is false, it cannot be true that ALL religions are true, which was the original suggestion.

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> If even one religion is false, it cannot be true that ALL religions are true, which was the original suggestion.
> 
> Liz


But that's not what you originally said!


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I think you'll find it is.
> 
> And we all know what happens with Chinese whispers, eg. start telling the story of Robin Hood and end up with the story of Snow White.


well they both wore tights:thumbup:


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> But that's not what you originally said!


And that surprises you?


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

demi said:


> but how do you know what one is true and what one is false?? what are you going to do if you've got the wrong one?


If you ask all the right questions, and you get answers that satisfy you consistently - then you have the right one. 
But you must have sound, logical, workable answers. 
Answers wreathed in mystery and the unknown, I personally feel are insufficient to hold my attention for too long.
This is why Buddhism and Science work and interact so successfully. 
They work on similar principles. 
Did you look at the link I gave you for that book?
Did you know The Dalai lama is involved in global scientific research on the workings of the brain and how they affect the mind, and vice-versa, and how the mind affects the body?

Fascinating.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bandy said:


> And that surprises you?


Not in the least hun! Not in the least


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## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

> *If you talk to God you are praying,
> If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia*


Thomas Szasz


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

I've talked to my little invisible friend, and he says you're wrong.....:lol:


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

GoldenShadow said:


> What do you mean, sure I did what?
> 
> Well being religious and having grown up in that way that's not how any of the religious side of my family/the religious people I know think, *so no we don't think its a human invention *




*Who's invention is he then ??????????????????????????????????? and where did God come from.*


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

skyblue said:


> well they both wore tights:thumbup:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> [/COLOR][/B]
> 
> *Who's invention is he then ??????????????????????????????????? and where did God come from.*


When i said that religion was a human invention i was differentiating between religion and god.

Religion being a human concept....something we write, teach, preach, philosophise and stipulates behaviours.
God being a being that is beyond and above our plain of existance, outside our observable universe. And therefore something not possible to prove or disprove.

Religion can exist whether the god is there or not, so long as people believe in the religions teachings. 
A God(s) could theoretically exist regardless of religion...


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Savahl said:


> When i said that religion was a human invention i was differentiating between religion and god.
> 
> Religion being a human concept....something we write, teach, preach, philosophise and stipulates behaviours.
> God being a being that is beyond and above our plain of existance, outside our observable universe. And therefore something not possible to prove or disprove.
> ...


But the bible says god spoke to Adam, to Moses and gave him the ten commandments, he told someone (don't know his name) to kill his own son. So were they hearing voices and should have been locked up.

And was it God that's caused the Big Bang that started life in the first place?????


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

What was this God doing before the universe was created?...Backpacking perhaps.


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## The Dog Woman (Jan 7, 2011)

Playing marbles, of course. What do you think "The Big bang" was.....??:lol:


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

poohdog said:


> What was this God doing before the universe was created?...Backpacking perhaps.


Creating countless other planets with countless other races?

Ya ever wonder if maybe, given all the references in the bible (especially Ezekiel)
that perhaps our god (as known to all religions) was a geeky alien with a shitty attitude and we're a science experiment?

Just a thought and just as valid.
Would explain all the references to some speaking with god, not being allowed to see his face and Jesus rising from the grave into the sky.

Maybe Scotty beamed him up!

:lol::lol::lol:


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Bandy said:


> Creating countless other planets with countless other races?
> 
> Ya ever wonder if maybe, given all the references in the bible (especially Ezekiel)
> that perhaps our god (as known to all religions) was a geeky alien with a shitty attitude and we're a science experiment?
> ...


*It's as good as the other story, I think you could be right* :thumbup: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

poohdog said:


> What was this God doing before the universe was created?...Backpacking perhaps.


hahahahahaha!!! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::lol::lol:


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

The Dog Woman said:


> If you ask all the right questions, and you get answers that satisfy you consistently - then you have the right one.
> But you must have sound, logical, workable answers.
> Answers wreathed in mystery and the unknown, I personally feel are insufficient to hold my attention for too long.
> This is why Buddhism and Science work and interact so successfully.
> ...


no i didnt see the link, can you send it again please.


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