# Training to stop sheep chasing?



## JunoLab (Jul 10, 2014)

Juno has excellent recall from everything except sheep. There is something about their white fluffy bums running away that she can't resist. The sight of them makes her deaf to my commands or whistle and sends her into an adrenalin frenzy. I'm very careful to keep her close and to put her on a short lead wherever there are livestock signs or I see them in the distance several fields away. But we live in the country and sooner or later there was going to be a problem.

A couple of weeks ago we were taking our usual walk through arable fields, only to find that a local farmer had popped a flock of sheep into an unfenced meadow where there have never been sheep before. He had put up a three strand electric and plastic post fence but hadn't switched it on. Before I knew what was happening Juno was through and having the time of her life. Safe to say I was in a complete panic and although she was only chasing for 2-3 minutes before I got her back I was terrified that she would do some harm.  She isn't aggressive and had no interest in attacking the sheep, just in chasing them around and around, but obviously it was extremely stressful to them and I felt horrible and powerless not to mention very angry and upset at myself for allowing it to happen.

So, my question, has anyone had any success with anti-chase training with sheep and can you recommend a reputable trainer who could help and who doesn't use shock methods? We're willing to travel anywhere in the north of England. I've found these possibillities so far but advice would be greatly appreciated:

JANET ARDLEY -How to stop your dog chasing sheep with Cumbria Dog Training

Sheep worrying or chasing - Livestock training for dogs


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I wouldn't touch the first one with a barge pole. By the sounds of it they are merely suppressing the behaviour, not changing it, because:

They mention "shouting" at the dog. It's merely stops the dog when you are there- if you're lucky- but does nothing if you are not insight/ in earshot/out zoned by the sheer pleasure of chasing sheep.

And

They say they can "cure" the dog in an hour. That's just not possible

They also will use electric collars. By saying " if the owner agrees" does not get them off that particular hook.

The second one looks like it could warrant further investigation.

I myself found one online fairly close to home, but on speaking to them on the phone, they merely used adversities (in this case rattle bottles) which is useless. And can harm your relationship with your dog.

Let us know if you find somewhere good, as I'd be interested!
:thumbup:


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Speak to Barbara Sykes and/or David Ryan

Mainline Border Collie Centre

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/

Be VERY careful who you go to, David specialises in prey drive


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

JunoLab...I live in free grazing sheep territory extraordinaire (Dartmoor, Devon). Because there are sheep ( and cattle...and wild ponies )EVERYWHERE all our dogs have to be bombproof to lifestock.

It is a very, VERY rare dog who won't understand quickly that the fluffy white things aren't there to play "chase" with. And I have NEVER seen a diehard Labbie chaser. Sure, they may try it if insufficiently lifestock trained, but I'd be hugely surprised if Juno is hellbent on doing it once she knows, pity as it may be, the enticing white animals are not fun and to be ignored.

Would you come as far as Devon? There are several trainers here I could recommend.

Alternatively, the fundamentals of anti-sheep training consist of :

A long line
Treats ( super yummy kind)
An empty coke can half filled with pebbles and the opening taped over.
The word "leave it"
and....most important of all.....regular, preferrably daily ( or twice daily) exposure to livestock.

That is it.

Put her on the long line ( hold it at first and then let her trail it when you are confident that she understood "leave it") and walk her through sheep. If she pays ANY interest to them...and she will, since chasing is F U N ...say "no, leave it". The moment she looks back to you - reward. And I mean REALLY reward. Not just a piece of boring Bonio but whatever she is most crazy about ( cheese, ham, roast chicken, shortbread biscuits). Praise her.

Repeat daily. That is ALL she may need to get the drift that sheep are to be left alone. 

Use of rattle can: sheep have the uncanny knack to appear from seemingly nowhere. You've scanned the area, it is sheep free, you let her off the leash when suddenly a sheep appears around the bend or from behind a bush. As she is off the leash you can't outrun her and even shouting "leave it " "wait" or ""come" once your dog is running won't get you far. 

Which is why you NEED to preempt this very scenario and change her attitude towards them. If you don't, and you are routinely walking in a sheep grazing area, you won't enjoy and relax on your walks any more.

Thus, BEFORE you let her off the long line BUT with the long line trailing and her slightly ahead of you ( a dog is way smart enough to differentiate whether someone is or isn't holding on to their leash and curtailing their freedom) if she shows any interest in the sheep ( e.g. Takes a few steps towards them, stares at them) you surreptiously fish the pebble filled can out of your pocket and throw it.

NB and this is VERY important: you DON't throw the rattle can AT your dog with the aim of hitting her with it. The premise is to throw it slightly behind or to the side of her. You don't say ANYTHING whilst you are doing so. In fact, as far as Juno is concerned - you have nothing to do with the sudden noise. Study your shoes or the cloud formations, but TO HER it should be a coincidental occurance resulting from moving towards, or staring, at a sheep. An act of the sheep gods. But it has nothing to do with YOU.

However, if your aim is bad and you do mis-throw...the can will not hurt her.

Hopefully, she is sufficiently startled to come back straight to you. Be non-commital and praise but not overly OTT.

Repeat if necessary.

in a nutshell the above is what most seasoned livestock trainers will teach you. 

But..... just as you should be VERY cautious about those who advise shock collars, severe corporal punishment or putting her into a pen with a ram ( yup, quite a few of those around!), be equally sceptical of those who rely on rewards alone. Trust me, the thrill and fun of a chase isn't counteracted solely by a cookie or a treat. It is imperative that the dog clearly understands that chasing is a no-go. 
Not just for the sheep's sake...but for hers. And yours. Or you have to keep her on a leash forever. Which isn't much of a fulfilling life.

Good luck and let me know if you need the name of some trainers.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Angela Stockdale, Dog Aggression Specialist - Living with Livestock: dogs with stock problems

OP I like Angela Stockdale's definitions.

A friend of mine had an extremely well trained labrador that competed at the highest level in a particular sport and was a sheep killer.

Not all dogs can be cured and for them they either need to be relocated, be on a lead in any environment where there are sheep etc fortunately the majority of dogs are not in this category.

In addition, dogs that are safe in fields full of sheep may be less so where there hill sheep due to SEC (sudden environmental contrast).

Good luck


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

It's quite possible your dog DID do harm to the sheep. At his time of year they are pregnant, and being chased or harassed can cause abortion.

It could be worth ringing Alan at Lake District Working Sheepdogs to see if he can recommend someone who uses methods other than a shock collar. He's a nice bloke.

A friend's boxer used to chase sheep, she went to Ingrid Grayling Dog Trainer Cumbria And Bath | Dog Boarding Cumbria but used a shock collar; it worked. Don't know if she will/can train without one.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Just a story.

A rescue service here was training a dog who was known to worry livestock. They kept an online "blog" consisting of videos of the dogs progress. They managed to get to the stage where the dog would remain sitting when sheep ran past.

However, one night he got out. While on his own he chased and killed a sheep and injured others.

I think (I don't know) that it's important to change the dogs whole behavioural response to sheep, whether you are there or not. Otherwise you ha just taught them not to chase when you are there. 

Becuase this is Scotland, there can be sheep anywhere. They can suddenly appear in forests where they are not supposed to be, or from hollows where you cannot see them. S, it's really imperative to change the dogs whole response to sheep.

NB. I might be talking rubbish. This is just my opinion. I'm not an expert on behaviour.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

The weirdest one I ever heard to cure a dog of sheep chasing was to put it in an enclosure with a ram, funnily enough two people told me that in the same day.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Firedog said:


> The weirdest one I ever heard to cure a dog of sheep chasing was to put it in an enclosure with a ram, funnily enough two people told me that in the same day.


Idea behind that seems to be that the ram stands up for itself and puts the dog off ever chasing sheep again. I often wonder how that would have played out with Rupert, whether it would have worked or ended up with a seriously injured or dead ram. Not that I'd ever have tried it.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

All it does is make the dog seriously pissed off with the ram or dead, hardly replicates dog in field with lots of sheep scenario.......................


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Firedog said:


> The weirdest one I ever heard to cure a dog of sheep chasing was to put it in an enclosure with a ram, funnily enough two people told me that in the same day.


Lots of farmers do it. Actually lots of people ask farmers whether they can cure their sheep chaser via this method.

Often works.

When it doesn't the dog no longer wants to "play" with sheep and endulge in a bit of a chase, but rip their head off instead. Not ideal.

Or the dog sustains a brain injury or other major injury from the ram. Also not ideal.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> All it does is make the dog seriously pissed off with the ram or dead, hardly replicates dog in field with lots of sheep scenario.......................


No, it somehow never seemed a good idea to me for various reasons lol. However I wondered (still do!) about anything that might have stopped Rupert. Always searching for that magic wand I guess :frown2:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I know of a nervy dog who went to someone for is treatment. When the owner came to collect it, the "trainer" showed how well the dog had done by having it run over the backs of penned sheep.

Within 2 weeks it had badly bitten a child and been PTS because of this.

Was this related to the "sheep training"? I don't know. But I don't think it helped this fearful dog.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> All it does is make the dog seriously pissed off with the ram or dead, hardly replicates dog in field with lots of sheep scenario.......................


I have to reiterate this. I have a dog who got his face bashed in by a horse he was chasing. All it did was a) teach him to duck and b) make him even more determined to chase the evil, hated horses. This was before he came to us and one of the reasons he ended up with us (killing chickens was his other fun hobby).

Once he came to us, he also managed to impale himself running after something in the woods. Like, tried to puncture a lung impale himself, not a small nick. He ended up with 5 stitches and a drain. That didnt stop him either, not in the moment nor after he healed.

I have to laugh at the notion that a penny can would have any effect on his chasing behavior either.

In fact he is still a confirmed chaser and hunter. I dont think there is anything you can do to eliminate the desire to chase in a confirmed chaser.

The difference though is that I can recall him.

And no, its not just waving a hot dog in his face and hoping he will choose that over the deer running across the pasture.

I worked with some really awesome trainers who helped me understand drive better, yes, lots of rewards and premack. Lots of relationship building, judicious use of putting chasing on cue, and lots and lots and lots of impulse control exercises (Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt and Crate Games DVD Susan Garrett). 
I now have a dog who will break chase and return to me. No, Im not about to test this out by turning him loose on a sheep farm, but I do feel much better about his ability to listen to me and control himself.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> I know of a nervy dog who went to someone for is treatment. When the owner came to collect it, the "trainer" showed how well the dog had done by having it run over the backs of penned sheep.
> 
> Within 2 weeks it had badly bitten a child and been PTS because of this.
> 
> Was this related to the "sheep training"? I don't know. But I don't think it helped this fearful dog.


Cant like your post because of the content, but this is for me another huge consideration. What effect will the training have on my dog who is first and foremost a family pet?

Harsh methods (even the seemingly not so harsh) can cause long-term fall out including erosion of trust. Lack of trust is a big reason for bites on humans and not a path I have any interest in heading down.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I met a woman in the park once with a big bouncy lab on a lead. We chatted as we walked along- my dog happily running around ( this was many years ago). She told me the reason she had to keep her dog on a lead.

He loved to chase squirrels in the park. It drove her crazy because the park is surrounded by main roads- including a duel carried haw and she was very concerned he's get on the road. Unfortunately she had loads of squirrels in her garden, so the dog also chased them at home ( now I realise, reinforcing the behaviour).
One day the dog was in the garden and she noticed it chasing a squirrel, but this time, he caught it. She was horrified and rushed out of the house to rescue the squirrel. When she got to the dog, there was blood everywhere. She managed to get the squirrel and it ran off, covered in blood. She was worried as she assumed it must be badly injured. When she turned to look at her dog she realised it was the dog who was injured. His face was covered in bites and he was bleeding profusely. She took him immediately to the vet, where he had numerous stitched to his face.
The vet said, at least it'll cure his squirrel chasing.

First time he was offlead after the bites were healed and he spotted a squirrel he went totally crazy, barking and running after it!

She said it made him even worse. She thought it made him want to kill all squirrels!!


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> I met a woman in the park once with a big bouncy lab on a lead. We chatted as we walked along- my dog happily running around ( this was many years ago). She told me the reason she had to keep her dog on a lead.
> 
> He loved to chase squirrels in the park. It drove her crazy because the park is surrounded by main roads- including a duel carried haw and she was very concerned he's get on the road. Unfortunately she had loads of squirrels in her garden, so the dog also chased them at home ( now I realise, reinforcing the behaviour).
> One day the dog was in the garden and she noticed it chasing a squirrel, but this time, he caught it. She was horrified and rushed out of the house to rescue the squirrel. When she got to the dog, there was blood everywhere. She managed to get the squirrel and it ran off, covered in blood. She was worried as she assumed it must be badly injured. When she turned to look at her dog she realised it was the dog who was injured. His face was covered in bites and he was bleeding profusely. She took him immediately to the vet, where he had numerous stitched to his face.
> ...


Again, cant like the content, but the message is sound.

When Bates got his face bashed in, his owners said the same thing. Well at least now he will quit chasing the horses. Which of course, he didnt. He just learned to chase smarter and stay away from the hooves.

Which makes sense when you think about it. If the reinforcement is great enough, the consequences wont matter.

A friend shared this on her FB wall a few months ago:


> "From the genius mind of Eryka Kahunanui Kinner:
> Client: I don't understand why dogs will choke themselves just to go forward!
> Me: Because the choking is worth the reward.
> Client: That makes no sense to me.
> ...


Replace pulling with chasing and choking with whatever consequence you want to inflict for chasing and you have the same scenario.

Sure, some dogs are easily deterred from chasing, but many are not, and then what? Youre either left to see how sadistic youre willing to get with the punishment or you try something else.

And as the pizza analogy shows, reinforcement trumps punishment as far as motivation goes. IOW, youre not going to punish the chase out of a dog, but you might stand a chance if you redirect that chase drive on to something that works for you and then reinforcing it.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

JunoLab said:


> Juno has excellent recall from everything except sheep. There is something about their white fluffy bums running away that she can't resist. The sight of them makes her deaf to my commands or whistle and sends her into an adrenalin frenzy. I'm very careful to keep her close and to put her on a short lead wherever there are livestock signs or I see them in the distance several fields away. But we live in the country and sooner or later there was going to be a problem.
> 
> A couple of weeks ago we were taking our usual walk through arable fields, only to find that a local farmer had popped a flock of sheep into an unfenced meadow where there have never been sheep before. He had put up a three strand electric and plastic post fence but hadn't switched it on. Before I knew what was happening Juno was through and having the time of her life. Safe to say I was in a complete panic and although she was only chasing for 2-3 minutes before I got her back I was terrified that she would do some harm.  She isn't aggressive and had no interest in attacking the sheep, just in chasing them around and around, but obviously it was extremely stressful to them and I felt horrible and powerless not to mention very angry and upset at myself for allowing it to happen.
> 
> ...


I have worked with the lady from the second link in the past, and she is successful without shock collars, but under no circumstances leave her alone with your dog - especially if she pulls on the lead.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Firedog said:


> The weirdest one I ever heard to cure a dog of sheep chasing was to put it in an enclosure with a ram, funnily enough two people told me that in the same day.


I have known farmers do this with dogs too and 1 farmer I used to know had a Herdwick ram with huge curling horns that hated dogs. Don't know if it ever worked long term or if the offending dog/s ever went off chasing sheep or other livestock.

We had a patterdale/JRT that started chasing sheep, only thing I could do was rehome her to my friend in the town.

.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

When I was a baby, my parents got a BC spaniel x as a pet. She looked a bit like Lady from lady and the Tramp and she never got dirty.lol.

My dad took her for a walk one sunday morning down the local river bank and the dog came across a rat nest. She poked her nose in the nest and got bitten. She screamed the place down and her face was a total ripped up mess where the rat/s bit her. 

That was it, could never take her anywhere near water/wood or anywhere where rats may have passed.She was on a mission to kill them all.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Did you tell the farmer that the sheep might abort?


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

JunoLab, I forgot to include and emphasise an important point:

Please tackle the sheep chasing immediately, i.e. don't put it on your "to do" list.

I know several owners and dogs where the dog went from being an opportunistic chaser - because a sheep unexpectantly ran out in front of the dog's nose - to becoming an intentional chaser. Where they then spend the whole walk purposefully looking for sheep to chase.

Avoid progressing to the latter at all costs. Because once the dog finds chasing so much fun that it goes looking for them, you WILL have to resort to pretty draconian measures to change their behaviour. Or resign yourself to leash walks.

Thus, act quickly. Very quickly.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Two of my three show an unhealthy interest in sheep. Not usually those in a farmers field but the free ranging ones such as on Dartmoor. The other doesn't but is a great hunter of birds so could well go through a farmer's field not in pursuit of sheep but in pursuit of birds. Farmer isn't going to know that and would be within his rights to shoot him. So whats wrong with a lead or a long line in any area where there is a chance of coming across sheep? Unless you are totally 100 % certain they won't chase why take the risk?


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Two of my three show an unhealthy interest in sheep. Not usually those in a farmers field but the free ranging ones such as on Dartmoor. The other doesn't but is a great hunter of birds so could well go through a farmer's field not in pursuit of sheep but in pursuit of birds. Farmer isn't going to know that and would be within his rights to shoot him. So whats wrong with a lead or a long line in any area where there is a chance of coming across sheep? Unless you are totally 100 % certain they won't chase why take the risk?


Even if I were 100% certain my dog wouldnt chase (and no dog is 100% reliable), I would not risk walking my dog off lead near livestock. *I* may know my dog has a solid recall, but farmers do not, and like you said, they are well within their rights to shoot a dog they even suspect of worrying their livestock. 
Thankfully most farmers are not trigger happy, but its such an easily avoidable risk, why even push it?


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## Rahoulb (Dec 17, 2013)

If you're still looking for help, try JandJ Greenwood Dog Training

Jim mainly deals with lurchers (who of course have very high prey drive) - I saw him to help with a reactive lurcher and he was amazing.

But he also does livestock training sessions and workshops around the country.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Two of my three show an unhealthy interest in sheep. Not usually those in a farmers field but the free ranging ones such as on Dartmoor. The other doesn't but is a great hunter of birds so could well go through a farmer's field not in pursuit of sheep but in pursuit of birds. Farmer isn't going to know that and would be within his rights to shoot him. So whats wrong with a lead or a long line in any area where there is a chance of coming across sheep? Unless you are totally 100 % certain they won't chase why take the risk?


This.

Surely with these sheep chasing training courses, they are only going to help the dog in the controlled environment. I just would not trust training done in that controlled environment to translate to the real world, particularly in situations where sheep suddenly appear and the dog is off the lead and sees them before the owner.

I would just keep the dog on a lead unless you can be completely sure of the environment. There are certain areas here where sheep appear to come and go - one day they will be there, the next gone, and they'll be back randomly anything from a couple of days to a couple of weeks later. I guess the farmers rotate them. I never assume they will not be there and keep mine restrained until I know for sure. Actually, I only let them off in the sheep areas if they've been gone for a couple of weeks as they snarf up the poo like it's a delicacy


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> I myself found one online fairly close to home, but on speaking to them on the phone, they merely used adversities (in this case rattle bottles) which is useless. And can harm your relationship with your dog.
> 
> :thumbup:


interesting.

Since you state this with conviction and authority , could you please expand on this?

Because the one thing that I can say with authority - I KNOW about livestock proofing a dog. Doesn't matter whether it is a Lurcher or a Lab or a Collie. Neither I nor 1000's of other dog owners around here need to leash their dog , call their dog back or do detours in the presence of livestock. Doesn't matter whether the sheep, cattle or horses are close by or far off, standing, running or being driven by the farmer.

The dogs will ignore them. Not mostly, not usually - always. THAT is what "successful training" means - the dog's response is reliable not hit n'miss. If the response is unpredictable, the dog isn't trained. And if your premise is that NO dog can ever be reliably trained......that is an unfortunate and wholly incorrect assumption. An insult to the intelligence of the dog and to the competency and work of their owner.

But since, in your opinion, an E -collar isn't acceptable, a rattle can useless AND relationship damaging, and that I can unequivocally tell you that trying to reward a dog with a high prey drive out of chasing is NOT successful....could you please tell me more of YOUR tried and trusted method?


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> interesting.
> 
> Since you state this with conviction and authority , could you please expand on this?
> 
> ...


I think the link smokeybear posted may answer a lot of your questions.
Angela Stockdale, Dog Aggression Specialist - Living with Livestock: dogs with stock problems
For dogs in categories 4 and 5, "aversion is not effective, therefore not used."


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I think the link smokeybear posted may answer a lot of your questions.
> Angela Stockdale, Dog Aggression Specialist - Living with Livestock: dogs with stock problems
> For dogs in categories 4 and 5, "aversion is not effective, therefore not used."


Thank you.

But I was after Old Shep's firsthand experience in successfully training her dog plus others not to chase and her personal livestock training approach.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> interesting.
> 
> Since you state this with conviction and authority , could you please expand on this?
> 
> ...


Have to agree with you regarding Dartmoor. When we are there (we don't live there but visit at least once a month) we see tons of people just open up their cars and let their dogs out to run on the moors where sheep are visible. I posted a thread about it a couple of months ago. I couldn't figure whether all these people were certain their dogs wouldn't chase or just hoping for the best or even didn't realise that sheep were lurking behind every bush and rock. Can honestly say I haven't seen any dogs chasing sheep so I suppose like you most owners must know their dogs are pretty safe. I guess the frequency of exposure particularly if its from a young age helps. Mine only see sheep when we are there so the exposure is sporadic and as far as I'm concerned its not a risk I'm prepared to take. The only sheep I trust my lot with are these ones


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Have to agree with you regarding Dartmoor. When we are there (we don't live there but visit at least once a month) we see tons of people just open up their cars and let their dogs out to run on the moors where sheep are visible. I posted a thread about it a couple of months ago. I couldn't figure whether all these people were certain their dogs wouldn't chase or just hoping for the best or even didn't realise that sheep were lurking behind every bush and rock. Can honestly say I haven't seen any dogs chasing sheep so I suppose like you most owners must know their dogs are pretty safe. I guess the frequency of exposure particularly if its from a young age helps. Mine only see sheep when we are there so the exposure is sporadic and as far as I'm concerned its not a risk I'm prepared to take. The only sheep I trust my lot with are these ones


I'd say Indie gives new meaning to looking proud of showing a sheep just who is in charge. Cute!

Some skills - like teaching a dog not to chase livestock, NEVER to chase livestock regardless of how tempting this may be - are the result of sheer necessity. Dartmoor is 954 sq kilometers. Living here rather than visiting occasionally necessitates that a dog fully comprehends that livestock has to be ignored. If I lived in Surrey could I be bothered to livestock proof a dog? Not in a million. Nor could I do it without difficulty because the dog would lack THE most crucial component - frequent exposure.

That aside, I share Labradrks sceptism and concern about the value of livestock training one's dog away from the home turf. I would not be confident that the dog extrapolates the recently learned, yet very situation specific behaviour, to a different environment. Given the choice it is infinitely preferable to teach those skills in their normal, daily used habitat.

Which is why I suggested the long line & the rest. It works. On any dog from an Affenpincher, Boxer, Cocker, Doberman, Flatcoat....all the way down to a Yorkie ( can't think of a dog breed starting with "Z). Some dogs make that training ridiculousy easy and swift, some VERY hard. But they ALL learn.

The only thing I do take objection to is repeatedly reading that no dog is 100% reliable. It just isn't so. They are.....or those people you saw gaily opening their boot and letting the dogs out wouldn't be doing it. To me it's like saying " no dog will ever walk reliably on the leash without pulling". They can and do even with squirrels teasing and cats crossing. All a dog needs is clear instructions and aquiring comprehension of what is expected. If they don't understand, how can they do or not do something the owner wants from them?

Be that as it may, I am still looking forward to Old Sheps alternative livestock training regime. Perhaps she knows an even better and swifter way. Would be totally fab and I am all ears. Sincerely.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Thank you.
> 
> But I was after Old Shep's firsthand experience in successfully training her dog plus others not to chase and her personal livestock training approach.


I thought you were asking about rattle cans?


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I thought you were asking about rattle cans?


No.


I KNOW what rattle cans can and can't do and I know how to livestock proof a dog.

What I wanted to know is what OS knew about it. In view that she wasn't in favour of aversives....and the rest was rather hazy.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Moobli made a list while back

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/319011-livestock-chasing.html


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

diefenbaker said:


> Moobli made a list while back
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/319011-livestock-chasing.html


Actually originally it was mine.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I didn't say I had a method.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> I didn't say I had a method.


But then what is your evaluation, assessment of OTHER peoples methods as well as your recommendation to JunoLab based on?

If your dog lives somewhere where they come in frequent contact with livestock...or horse riders...or joggers you got to reliably teach them SOMEHOW that the aforementioned are not to be bothered.

If e-collars are out, rattle cans are out, anything not involving throwing a cotton wool ball at the dog is out.....HOW do you teach them? A 3 year old can teach a dog to do, or refrain from doing, something *occasionally*.

But if the dog's AND the sheep AND the horse riders AND the farmers AND your own safety and wellbeing depend on the dog's RELIABILITY - how do you go about it?

Unless you are of the mind-set that a dog hasn't got a right to learn anything worthwhile and useful unless this involves just rewards, and the owner hasn't got a duty to teach their dog anything worthwhile?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Personally I think the assumption that any dog can be taught to be 100% reliable around livestock is dangerous. Some aren't going to be safe around livestock no matter what you do or how much you "need" them to be safe. 

Spencer has been taught not to chase birds, deer and hare with the use of management and treats alone. Cats we're working on, we rarely see those. Sheep he has shown no desire to get close to, horses he ignores completely. Yet I still wouldn't be comfortable having him off leash close to livestock even though he's highly unlikely to chase.

Rupert on the other hand was hell bent on killing and nothing short of management was appropriate with him. Everyones well being depended on him being kept on leash. Rattle bottle? He wouldn't even have noticed it quite frankly. Ecollar was looked into, several trainers told me it was highly unlikely to work given his intent and his history. How far do you go in the name of training? How much pain and fear do you inflict on the dog before deciding it simply isn't going to happen?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2014)

I dont know of anyone who would advocate throwing cotton wool at a dog, though I did have a vet drop cotton wool near one of my dogs once to gauge how blind he was becoming. 

Anyway... While I do not think it is possible (nor desirable) to train with *only* positive reinforcement, I do think it is possible to train a dog without deliberate use of aversives and to train the dog to a very high level of reliability without them.

100% reliability is a myth. If for no other reason than I am not 100% reliable, and am likely to call the dog by one of the childrens names, say sit when I mean come, or signal a go out when I mean stay... Hell, nuclear clocks are not 100% reliable, Im not sure why we expect that of our dogs. 
Bates has never not come when I have called him in a variety of situations and contexts. He has a reliable recall as far as Im concerned. However I have not asked him to come in the presence of lemurs dressed in grass skirts and coconut bras dancing a cha-cha. For all I know that may prove to be too much of a distraction for him, I know it would be for me... Ergo, I will not say he is 100% reliable  

As I already mentioned, using environmental rewards and premack principle, carefully putting the unwanted behavior on cue (gives you more control over the behavior), and in the case of drive-based unwanted behaviors, impulse control is your friend. Leslie McDevitt and Susan Garrett are total geniuses of impulse control. Susan Garretts crate games DVD was totally eye opening to me. Her understanding of criteria and consequences and her ability to explain it to the lay person is fantastic. BTW, its not a DVD about putting your dog in a crate, its about impulse control and laying a rock-solid foundation on which to build the behaviors you ask of your dog. 

Speaking of foundations, another important piece of the dog training puzzle is the relationship. Denise Fenzi recently posted a great article on engagement, how to achieve it and how to maintain it, and what that means as far as what you can achieve with your dog - the reliability factor again. Engaged dogs are more reliable than dogs who shut you out. Using aversives makes many dogs dis-engage, which hurts the reliability of your cues.

And lets talk about the reliability of averisves. We have had many dogs come to us with quirks and fears, those nearly always go away. Dogs (and humans) are very good at habituating and desensitizing to unpleasant stimuli. Just ask anyone who lives next to a train track. We did for years and learned to sleep through the small earthquake and noise of the train passing by. 
However, pleasant stimuli tent to not only not loose strength, but often gain strength if youre clever about how you go about reinforcing. Ive never had a dog loose interest in the clank of the food bowls at dinner time - they dont desensitize to that. Or the cue of me putting on my running shoes. Even if they dont always get to come. Rewarded cues remain strong throughout the dogs life. Punished cues loose value. 

Plus there is still the pizza analogy I posted above. For some dogs the reward of chasing trumps any possible aversive you can throw at them. Ive seen dogs run through electric fences, bracing themselves for the shock they know is coming, knowing full well its going to hurt, but the thrill of chasing that squirrel is just more powerful. There are savvy trainers who can get dogs like that to re-direct that drive on to something else, but youre not going to punish the drive out of them, and I personally would be very wary of any trainer who says he/she can.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Personally I think the assumption that any dog can be taught to be 100% reliable around livestock is dangerous. Some aren't going to be safe around livestock no matter what you do or how much you "need" them to be safe.
> 
> Spencer has been taught not to chase birds, deer and hare with the use of management and treats alone. Cats we're working on, we rarely see those. Sheep he has shown no desire to get close to, horses he ignores completely. Yet I still wouldn't be comfortable having him off leash close to livestock even though he's highly unlikely to chase.
> 
> Rupert on the other hand was hell bent on killing and nothing short of management was appropriate with him. Everyones well being depended on him being kept on leash. Rattle bottle? He wouldn't even have noticed it quite frankly. Ecollar was looked into, several trainers told me it was highly unlikely to work given his intent and his history. How far do you go in the name of training? How much pain and fear do you inflict on the dog before deciding it simply isn't going to happen?


But by the sounds of it you haven't tried ANY method on the basis at it MIGHT be ineffective (rattle can) or inflict pain and fear (e-collar).

Obviously that is your prerogative and your decision. Whether is really is in the best long-term interest of the dogs and ensures that they have the maximum of freedom with the minium of restrictions in order to live in a species appropriate way is open to debate.

Personally I would NOT consider it in my dog's best interest to permanently confine him to a leash for the duration of his life. I don't own 400 acres of land either where the dog can exercise unrestricted and without coming into contact with chase-worthy subjects. Which is why I and thousand of others have to come up with another plan. Which includes training. Leading to a reliable response not a "fingers crossed" one.

That aside - never in my life have I met a Golden Retriever who required an e-collar to grasp that moving objects aren't to be chased.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

All I do is keep my dog on a lead around free roaming sheep.

As for horses and cattle, I guess I've jaut been lucky. He sees them every day- all day- as they graze in the fields adjoining my land. He also sees sheep every day I. The fields, but sheep are more tempting.

When they are pups, I take them to the sheds to see the cattle and sheep. I progress from a lead to a long line and use treats to reward when he ignores them.

As for the horses, I also take them as pups into the stables. There are loads of horses on the beachs where I walk and my dogs are not interested. I guess I've jaut been lucky.

I DO let my dogs offlead when there are fre roaming cattle. They haven't shown an interest in them, and, of course, I wouldn't intentionally walk through them if I could help it- but sometimes they lay across the tracks and it's impossible.


Sheep are different as their propensity to run, bunch and scatter is incredibly tempting to dogs.

I must admit I sometimes use an "ah! ah!" If I see them paying too much attention to sheep onlead. I suppose you could call that an aversive.

For all that, I do still sometimes come across odd sheep when hillwalking and I'd like my dogs to have a good enough recall to get them back before they chase. 
I've not yet found a way of doing this, so would be interested in any links to good trainers.

I've been offered the "tied to a tup*" treatment by various farmers and shepherds 


*tup=entire male sheep. Can be huge.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> But by the sounds of it you haven't tried ANY method on the basis at it MIGHT be ineffective (rattle can) or inflict pain and fear (e-collar).
> 
> Obviously that is your prerogative and your decision. Whether is really is in the best long-term interest of the dogs and ensures that they have the maximum of freedom with the minium of restrictions in order to live in a species appropriate way is open to debate.
> 
> ...


No, you're right, I never tried anything to solve the problems I had with Rupert  I didn't look into all the options, didn't weigh the pros and cons, didn't consult with god knows how many trainers in person, online and over the phone. Some of whom were experts in using an ecollar to curb predatory behaviour, some of whom were experts in using other methods to curb it. I'm sorry but a random stranger on the internet who never met my dog let alone assessed him and knows absolutely nothing about him is not going to convince me that the experts who did were wrong and he'd have been easily fixed with use of a rattle bottle or ecollar. We're not talking a dog chasing for the hell of it here, we're talking about a dog who was intent on the kill and had often been successful in the past.

A rattle bottle was dismissed out of hand for Rupert, there was no way shaking a can of pennies or bottle of stones or even blaring a foghorn in his ear was likely to distract him. An ecollar was seriously considered (despite the fact I do not agree with them in general) with all the pros and cons weighed along with chance of success. The fact that the chance of success was practically nothing according to the ecollar experts decided me. I was not going to hurt my dog for nothing. I had some small success with positive methods in controlled environments with prey but they're very different to coming across a stray sheep or horse and rider suddenly.

Not sure who the golden retriever comment is aimed at


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I dont know of anyone who would advocate throwing cotton wool at a dog, though I did have a vet drop cotton wool near one of my dogs once to gauge how blind he was becoming.
> 
> Anyway... While I do not think it is possible (nor desirable) to train with *only* positive reinforcement, I do think it is possible to train a dog without deliberate use of aversives and to train the dog to a very high level of reliability without them.
> 
> ...


No, 100% reliability is NOT a myth, not unachievable...and I genuinly don't comprehend why people keep saying it.

I totally get if an owner says "I CAN'T teach my dog" even "I can't be bothered to teach my dog" or "I rather not" or " I don't need this skill for my dog" - all perfectly fine. My ONLY issue is with "it can't be done" or "it can't be done without cruelty". This assumption is erroneous. Not to mention a great shame. A lot of people give up before even trying, expecting it to INFINITELY harder than it is. But teaching the average young dog not to chase is a doddle.

Teaching a dog to reliably leave livestock, horse riders, joggers and whatever else alone is a taught skill. Like....reading. Once you comprehended and have become proficient in reading is is a permanent, reliable skill. It isn't "today I know how to read but tomorrow I may not be able to". Once you know, you know. It is the same for the dog. Once they know, they know.

Premack, in the context of chasing, is simply not applicable. It is absurd. How would it work ? No, you can't chase THIS sheep and thanks for coming back but now you can chase THAT sheep/jogger/horse instead? A ball or frisbee are not equivalent substitutes for it. So what do you do?

As to the notion of relationship damage as a result of anti- chase training....I honestly don't know how to answer to this.WHY and HOW would the relationship become damaged? As a result of what?

Dartmoor Commoners Council

This is where I live. It is a paradise for dogs. We don't have to deal with poisonous spiders, bears, rattle snakes, all manner of other dangers many others routinely encounter or have to deal with.

And we have no leash laws.

The ONLY thing our dogs HAVE to learn is not to chase. Not beyond the comprehension of any dog I've ever met. Beyond the comprehension of some of their owners, maybe...but that has nothing to do with the dog.

This morning I met 2 horse riders. On the ROAD going towards Dartmoor. Between them they had 5 dogs. Off leash. 2 Spaniels, a Lab, a BC, and a Lurcher. Those 2 people, sitting on a horse no less, could perfectly control and direct 5 lose dogs to stay out of traffic, to wait, keep to the side, change side of the road, never mind ignoring people, dogs or any livestock.

Those 2 riders are far from unusal around here. Nobody gives them a rousing round of applause for their genius dog handling skills. It is assumed that if you got a dog you are competent to control it with or without a leash. Contrast this to a lot of what you hear on this forum where people can't even control their ONE dog ON a leash.

Which scenario, in your mind, is stranger? Being able to effortlessly control 5 off leash dogs whilst riding a horse on the road? Or not being able to control 1 dog on the leash? Call me nuts - for me it's the latter. Which is probably why I consider teaching a dog to leave livestock 1000% alone pretty small fry. I so wish people had higher expectations of their dogs capabilities. And their own.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> No, you're right, I never tried anything to solve the problems I had with Rupert  I didn't look into all the options, didn't weigh the pros and cons, didn't consult with god knows how many trainers in person, online and over the phone. Some of whom were experts in using an ecollar to curb predatory behaviour, some of whom were experts in using other methods to curb it. I'm sorry but a random stranger on the internet who never met my dog let alone assessed him and knows absolutely nothing about him is not going to convince me that the experts who did were wrong and he'd have been easily fixed with use of a rattle bottle or ecollar. We're not talking a dog chasing for the hell of it here, we're talking about a dog who was intent on the kill and had often been successful in the past.
> 
> A rattle bottle was dismissed out of hand for Rupert, there was no way shaking a can of pennies or bottle of stones or even blaring a foghorn in his ear was likely to distract him. An ecollar was seriously considered (despite the fact I do not agree with them in general) with all the pros and cons weighed along with chance of success. The fact that the chance of success was practically nothing according to the ecollar experts decided me. I was not going to hurt my dog for nothing. I had some small success with positive methods in controlled environments with prey but they're very different to coming across a stray sheep or horse and rider suddenly.
> 
> Not sure who the golden retriever comment is aimed at


I thought your two were Goldens?

If you need to interpret my prior post as having a dig at your ownership skills, that is unfortunate but quite beyond my control and under your sole discretion. I wasn't. But you reacting this defensively speaks for itself. You clearly don't feel at ease about something and that isn't because I made you or even insinuated that you had something to feel guilty about.

Since the long and short of it is you've never really tried anything concrete to address it. Other an verbally exploring some potential options. Your dogs, your decision. Either way, it is a far cry from the premise that dogs can't learn not to. Or ONLY with an e-collar. They can.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

"This morning I met 2 horse riders. On the ROAD going towards Dartmoor. Between them they had 5 dogs. Off leash. 2 Spaniels, a Lab, a BC, and a Lurcher. Those 2 people, sitting on a horse no less, could perfectly control and direct 5 lose dogs to stay out of traffic, to wait, keep to the side, change side of the road, never mind ignoring people, dogs or any livestock."


I do not think this is responsible behaviour, if this was on a public road- unless it was a single track, very quiet, access road*

You cannot tell when some other dog may come and charge at your dog. 

There was a local dog in my home town, a collie, who walked with his owner all round town, every day,staying by his side,waiting at the kerb.

Until one day, a dog flew out of a path and attacked him. He ran onto the road and was killed by a passing car.

Doesn't matter how well trained your dog is, you don't have a crystal ball to see what's round the corner.

* different kettle of fish as the dogs are extremely unlikely to meet anyone.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I thought your two were Goldens?
> 
> If you need to interpret my prior post as having a dig at your ownership skills, that is unfortunate but quite beyond my control and under your sole discretion. I wasn't. But you reacting this defensively speaks for itself. You clearly don't feel at ease about something and that isn't because I made you or even insinuated that you had something to feel guilty about.
> 
> Since the long and short of it is you've never really tried anything concrete to address it. Other an verbally exploring some potential options. Your dogs, your decision. Either way, it is a far cry from the premise that dogs can't learn not to. Or ONLY with an e-collar. They can.


Totally out of line. You dont know jack $hit about Sarah, her dogs, and what she has and has not tried, or how she feels. Hell, you dont even know that not every yellow dog is a golden


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> "This morning I met 2 horse riders. On the ROAD going towards Dartmoor. Between them they had 5 dogs. Off leash. 2 Spaniels, a Lab, a BC, and a Lurcher. Those 2 people, sitting on a horse no less, could perfectly control and direct 5 lose dogs to stay out of traffic, to wait, keep to the side, change side of the road, never mind ignoring people, dogs or any livestock."
> 
> I do not think this is responsible behaviour, if this was on a public road- unless it was a single track, very quiet, access road*
> 
> ...


Yes, you are right - disasterous things can happen at ANY time.

I'm about to drive my car to the supermarket to get tonight's dinner ingredients. There is NO certainty, none, that I won't have a fatal accident on the way there or back. Next week I am flying to the States. The plane could crash, the train taking me to the plane derail and a mad person could stab me to death for no good reason. There is is very little we can control.

Not sure what the moral of the story is - because we can control so little of our fate we should OVERcontrol the things we can?

Hypothetical question, BTW. Don't have the answer.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Totally out of line. You dont know jack $hit about Sarah, her dogs, and what she has and has not tried, or how she feels. Hell, you dont even know that not every yellow dog is a golden


Hi ouesi!

I wondered how long it would take you to attack. 

because that's your MO - if you can't refute a premise which doesn't sit right with you. The last time you wailed about sitting in the trenches helping the poor dogs of SC when you ran out of spurious arguments.

You are a real sweetheart.

And very predictable also.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I thought your two were Goldens?
> 
> If you need to interpret my prior post as having a dig at your ownership skills, that is unfortunate but quite beyond my control and under your sole discretion. I wasn't. But you reacting this defensively speaks for itself. You clearly don't feel at ease about something and that isn't because I made you or even insinuated that you had something to feel guilty about.
> 
> Since the long and short of it is you've never really tried anything concrete to address it. Other an verbally exploring some potential options. Your dogs, your decision. Either way, it is a far cry from the premise that dogs can't learn not to. Or ONLY with an e-collar. They can.


I'm perfectly happy with my decisions regarding Ruperts predatory behaviour thank you. I didn't need to shock him in order to decide against it and plenty of concrete things were tried. Just because I didn't use a rattle bottle or ecollar doesn't mean I sat back and did nothing. What I don't feel at ease about is your insistence that _all_ dogs predatory behaviour is easily stopped. I think that's an extremely dangerous idea to put out there to be perfectly honest.

And no, neither dog I've mentioned has been a golden. Spen is a labrador (and for the record is about as interested in chasing livestock as I am). Rupert was, at best educated guess, a german wirehaired pointer/lab mix.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> No, 100% reliability is NOT a myth, not unachievable...and I genuinly don't comprehend why people keep saying it.


because it's not achievable, to many variables. People keep saying it because it's true, to many things could happen, 1000000000000000 of variation that even with your super human dog training skills you couldn't 100% say your dog is going to react and not react in a certain way to them, there isn't enough time in your life or your dogs life to make sure they don't react to anything, unexpected things happen, things you or your dog have never seen, smelt, tasted etc then add to the mind and body, not sure why anyone would be fool hardy or even conceited enough to think they were that good a trainer that they have 100% reliable dog. :shocked:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I thought your two were Goldens?
> 
> If you need to interpret my prior post as having a dig at your ownership skills, that is unfortunate but quite beyond my control and under your sole discretion. I wasn't. But you reacting this defensively speaks for itself. You clearly don't feel at ease about something and that isn't because I made you or even insinuated that you had something to feel guilty about.
> 
> Since the long and short of it is you've never really tried anything concrete to address it. Other an verbally exploring some potential options. Your dogs, your decision. Either way, it is a far cry from the premise that dogs can't learn not to. Or ONLY with an e-collar. They can.


Meh just goes to show you can't proof for everything in life.. things happen like getting the wrong breeds of dogs, the wrong number of dogs  god damn those things.....


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Hi ouesi!
> 
> I wondered how long it would take you to attack.
> 
> ...


Ah, but am I 100% reliable?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Ah, but am I 100% reliable?


Nope coz nothing is not a thing.............. not man beast or machine............


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> because it's not achievable, to many variables. People keep saying it because it's true, to many things could happen, 1000000000000000 of variation that even with your super human dog training skills you couldn't 100% say your dog is going to react and not react in a certain way to them, there isn't enough time in your life or your dogs life to make sure they don't react to anything, unexpected things happen, things you or your dog have never seen, smelt, tasted etc then add to the mind and body, not sure why anyone would be fool hardy or even conceited enough to think they were that good a trainer that they have 100% reliable dog. :shocked:


But teaching a dog - in this specific instance the OP's 1 year old Lab girl - to ignore sheep doesn't involve a gazillion variables.

It involves ONE training target - sheep. Just sheep.

It has NOTHING to do with super-human, super training know-how or a super-intelligent dog.

I suppose theoretically, yes, it IS possible that a livestock trained dog takes off and hammers full tilt after a sheep. Just as it is theoretically possible that your dogs would bite you instead of greet you when you come home and walk through the door. But how LIKELY is it? Pretty darn remote, right?

So should you muzzle your dogs prophylactically on the account that this COULD happen? Of course not! Its the same with a livestock trained dog - yes, it could. But why would it if you taught them not to?


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Ah, but am I 100% reliable?


Oh, yeah, Babe


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I thought your two were Goldens?
> 
> If you need to interpret my prior post as having a dig at your ownership skills, that is unfortunate but quite beyond my control and under your sole discretion. I wasn't. But you reacting this defensively speaks for itself. You clearly don't feel at ease about something and that isn't because I made you or even insinuated that you had something to feel guilty about.
> 
> Since the long and short of it is you've never really tried anything concrete to address it. Other an verbally exploring some potential options. Your dogs, your decision. Either way, it is a far cry from the premise that dogs can't learn not to. Or ONLY with an e-collar. They can.


I am sorry but your posts most certainly do infer that Sarah did nothing to help Rupert and that her and Old Shep are imbeciles! Thats not them inferring it out of guilt or association, its how it reads, thankfully I have read and taken notice of fellow posters in the past so I know that you are talking out of ignorance. (Goldens snigger :lol

As for this.....an attack :frown2:



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Hi ouesi!
> 
> I wondered how long it would take you to attack.
> 
> ...


You know the advice you doled out at the beginning which sits so far up the dark ages backside its tickling the tonsils of the ice age is so very, very predictable from one who wouldn't know compassion and consideration if it chased you out your own back door.

OP: I have had some success with my chaser, chase not prey drive, the two are considerably different things, using lots of impulse control games, it sounds very much like your dog is doing it for fun not intent to kill, very much like mine. She actually grew up on a farm which hasn't helped, she had unfettered access to chase anything small and was allowed to go play with the orphan lambs and calves  so although she does it for fun her instinct is highly ingrained! I found David Ryans book very useful and have adapted a lot of the things he recommends. However I wont be letting her off lead near livestock any time soon either.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> But teaching a dog - in this specific instance the OP's 1 year old Lab girl - to ignore sheep doesn't involve a gazillion variables.
> 
> It involves ONE training target - sheep. Just sheep.your dogs would bite you instead of greet you when you come home and walk through the door. But how LIKELY is it? Pretty darn remote, right?
> 
> ...


So drugs dogs are not 100% reliable, Cadaver dogs aren't 100% reliable, even Guide Dogs for the blind and assistance dogs are not 100% reliable, but despite all these well qualified and successful trainers spending every day training these dogs day in day out they can't manage 100% reliability, but you can? Well you said you can but now you are saying that there is a chance they could not be 100% reliable. Yes it can be trained but it will NEVER be 100% reliable.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

It can't just be me here


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> But teaching a dog - in this specific instance the OP's 1 year old Lab girl - to ignore sheep doesn't involve a gazillion variables.
> 
> It involves ONE training target - sheep. Just sheep.
> 
> ...


You do put a pretty strong case and in your set of circumstances (your abilities and your location etc) it obviously works very well but I'm not convinced the "average owner" living in areas where the only sheep they come across are sporadic and contained within a farmer's field would have the same success. I guess what I'm saying is if it were vital to have a livestock proof dog then I would probably try your method but as for most people myself included its not vital then I prefer to stick to safety first and use a lead or long line.

Now watch out cos next time I'm in Dartmoor around your neck of the woods I will be keeping a close eye out for any dogs being naughty around sheep 

Old Shep we see quite a lot of horse riders with dogs in the New Forest and other local forests and of course on Dartmoor, usually crossing a road to get to the next bit of moorland but sometimes riding along the road although never a busy road. I have to admit my heart is always in my mouth when I watch them stop to cross roads. It was not something I would ever have tried when we had horses but then I was a pretty rubbish horse rider.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I feel very sorry for the OP, this thread has turned so nasty and its really unnecessary. Its fine to disagree and not have the same opinions but not to attack others  :thumbdown:


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> So drugs dogs are not 100% reliable, Cadaver dogs aren't 100% reliable, even Guide Dogs or the blind and assistance dogs are not 100% reliable, but despite all these well qualified and successful trainers spending every day training these dogs day in day out they can't manage 100% reliability, but you can?


Meezey...I sort of missed you whilst you were absent.

So I got to ask - WHERE are you going with this?

And why?

And is this helping JenLab?

But to answer your question - yes, I absolutely believe that a dog can be trained, without cruelty, to leave livestock alone. The REASON I believe this is because My own dogs were capable of doing this and THOUSANDS of dogs living on Dartmoor, Exmoor, the Yorkshire Dales, the Lake District, the Scottish Highlands, the New Forest, and, and, and are capable of this also.

These are not wonder dogs without a prey drive with wonder owners. They are just dogs taught not to. If my dog, anyones dog, chases or bothers ANY livestock or moving object it is simply a training fault or omission, nothing else.

But it is an omission which can have devastating consequences.My dog bothering a foal means he might get his head kicked in or his hip shattered by the protective mare. My dog barking or chasing after a horse rider means the horse could bolt and leave the rider paralysed. My dog chasing sheep could get him shot, lead the sheep to abort or the sheep to keel over from shock. My dog bothering cattle - frequently out with calves - means I and they have to mince it with a royally p***ed off cow.

Which is why you make sure that the dog is reliable and not hit n'miss.

I'm not sure I understand why this is such a hotly contested issue. We couldn't have guide dogs or assistance dogs or hunting dogs if their response is unpredictable.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2014)

There is a part in the movie Forrest Gump about shrimp 

"Anyway, like I was sayin, shrimp is the fruit of the sea. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Theres shrimp-kabobs, shrimp creole, shrimp gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. Theres pineapple shrimp, lemon shrimp, coconut shrimp, pepper shrimp, shrimp soup, shrimp stew, shrimp salad, shrimp and potatoes, shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich. That, thats about it.

I look at fun prey as being similar to dogs. You have your regular standing in a field sheep, sheep that appear suddenly, bleating sheep, shorn sheep, sheep in full wool, sheep that look at you, sheep that run towards you, sheep that run away from you, single sheep, multiple sheep. 

Some dogs generalize well, others dont, and that means multiple proofing factors when training.

My confirmed chicken killer is safe with our one rooster. I trained him to leave rooster alone in many different scenarios and Im pretty confident (not 100%) that Bates will leave him alone whether rooster is crowing, flapping, running, or just standing there eyeballing him. Ill even leave them alone out there together unattended.
However, I dont for a minute think any new chicken we bring on to the property would be safe. Or that if we went to anyone elses property with chickens that they would be safe. Which is why rooster still doesnt have a girlfriend, I want to wait until I have enough time to work with Bates so that he doesnt kill any new additions.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

GingerRogers said:


> I am sorry but your posts most certainly do infer that Sarah did nothing to help Rupert and that her and Old Shep are imbeciles! Thats not them inferring it out of guilt or association, its how it reads, thankfully I have read and taken notice of fellow posters in the past so I know that you are talking out of ignorance. (Goldens snigger :lol
> 
> As for this.....an attack :frown2:
> 
> You know the advice you doled out at the beginning which sits so far up the dark ages backside its tickling the tonsils of the ice age is so very, very predictable from one who wouldn't know compassion and consideration if it chased you out your own back door.


Thank you for your candour.

No, honestly - thank you.

It is posts like the above which really drum home that there are other things I should be doing than reading THAT.

So I am going to leave...but my parting present to PF is to make sure that you will do, too. If you are older than 15 you should be ashamed of yourself. Deeply. Writing this is inexcusable.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)




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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I'm not sure I understand why this is such a hotly contested issue. We couldn't have guide dogs or assistance dogs or hunting dogs if their response is unpredictable.


Yet we had a similar conversation about a Police dog biting someone in error.

The direction I am going is that no dog, not yours, not mine, even smokeybears ( I'll take a kicking on this one  ) dogs are 100% reliable 100% of the time.

We also have new stories of animals being killed in all the places you mention, and the numbers are increasing and I can bet money that those people who were caught or even those who weren't all said to themselves " well I never thought he would do that, never done it before that's why he was off lead, he's been trained not to"

"The BVA is asking dog owners to support a new campaign and keep their pets on leads near livestock as recent figures confirm that attacks have risen by more than 50 per cent in the last three years.

The campaign, spearheaded by the Farmers Guardian, aims to improve relationships in rural areas by encouraging walkers to keep dogs on lead near livestock. New figures, obtained by the farming publication from Freedom of Information requests to UK police forces, showed there were more than 1,000 attacks on livestock by dogs in 2013, up from 691 in 2011."


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Thank you for your candour.
> 
> No, honestly - thank you.
> 
> ...


I really hope you don't. There is room for everyones opinion on here and no one size fits all.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2014)

There is always room for different opinions yes.
Deliberately hurtful comments, personal attacks, and dangerous suggestions however, no. 

JMO 

And I do feel sorry for JunoLab having to dredge through all this just to get a few answers


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