# Anyone out there want to geek out on training stuff?



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I keep starting threads about training stuff but they don't garner much interest and some of it doesn't really warrant it's own thread either. 

I was thinking something like random doggy chat but for training related stuff. 
Quick session you did that you want feedback on?
Podcast you listened to and had a comment, thought?
Behavior you trained that you're proud of?
Random thoughts, epiphanies, concerns, musings?

Just geeky, nerdy training stuff that you'd like to bounce off other training nerds? 

Is anyone interested?


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## Ian246 (Oct 27, 2018)

I’m interested. I doubt I can offer much, but I’m happy to Hoover (vacuum) information up!


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## Pricivius (Mar 16, 2018)

I find your threads really interesting, although I don’t often comment as I don’t have anything useful to add - as a first time dog owner, I am just finding my way. The only worry I have about a central thread for this kind of thing is that they can become long and if you don’t keep up, you can ask a question that has already been asked or you may miss something...


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Oooh yes I like this idea! I did see your post on Penny's thread but I was rushing around and didn't have anything to input at that point tbh! :Hilarious


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Ian246 said:


> I'm interested. I doubt I can offer much, but I'm happy to Hoover (vacuum) information up!


I'm sure you would have lots to offer! 
But I don't mean it as a help thread necessarily, just a general musings thread. Kind of like how random dog chat goes, but more training focused. 
If you have a thought, share it, the thread doesn't have to have any specific direction 



Pricivius said:


> I find your threads really interesting, although I don't often comment as I don't have anything useful to add - as a first time dog owner, I am just finding my way. The only worry I have about a central thread for this kind of thing is that they can become long and if you don't keep up, you can ask a question that has already been asked or you may miss something...


As above, it's not about if you have anything useful to add, just sharing thoughts, insights, general comments, whatever really 

And yes, I do see what you mean about it becoming long, but I for one certainly don't mind a topic coming up more than once!



Sarah H said:


> Oooh yes I like this idea! I did see your post on Penny's thread but I was rushing around and didn't have anything to input at that point tbh! :Hilarious


I do that with posts all the time too! 

Well, we could start with that...
For anyone who didn't see it, I posted an unedited, start to finish training session with Penny. 
There's good stuff in there, there's not good stuff in there, but I think it will be interesting to look back on once we have the behavior more drilled down. 
This was our very first attempt at doing a spin move from heel position instead of from the front. The other behaviors I throw in to keep her happy and feeling confident. She also bashes her head against Bates chin and it made a loud noise and me being me I laughed. Penny being a terrier shook it off :Hilarious


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I'm always up for geeking out on training, although I've not been on much lately due to being super busy.

I like watching unedited videos and seeing when stuff goes wrong. Just goes to show that however well we train our dogs they have their own minds.

Our classes started up a few weeks ago and Holly goes along as a demo dog, and a wonderful one she is. I couldn't possibly ask more of her - she does everything I ask and when she's not needed she settles in the corner. She is completely unphased by the other dogs coming in, even if they bark at her. However, even she has her limits. The other day I was trying to demonstrate middle, but Holly was having none of it. She was bothered by a fly that wouldn't go away and got completely freaked out by it so refused to do anything. Kind of embarrassing, but also a learning moment for the class that our dogs aren't robots and sometimes might not be doing as we ask because something seemingly tiny is worrying them.

They did look at me strangely when I explained that my big 'ard GSD was scared of a fly :Hilarious


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> I keep starting threads about training stuff but they don't garner much interest and some of it doesn't really warrant it's own thread either.
> 
> I was thinking something like random doggy chat but for training related stuff.
> Quick session you did that you want feedback on?
> ...


Yes I love threads on training and sounds a good idea.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

@O2.0 , I may not always comment, but I always read your threads, especially on training. 

I think a general training thread is a great idea, as with so limited time with Honey and Milly currently, I try to make up for it in training and games.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I like the idea!


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I'd love a kind of random training chat thread. 

As one of PF's more decrepit members I find I can't follow some of the training threads because they're too technical for my tiny brain. After reading some of them I'm often left feeling totally inadequate, and yet I know I'm not too bad at training, 

It would be nice to have something a little bit more light hearted especially for those of us who don't want dogs that can do high fives and roll over ten times, just ones who are generally well behaved


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Random musing....


Not enough people know anything about olfaction which is a huge shame considering our dogs view the world through their nose :Yawn


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## tyg'smum (Aug 14, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> Random musing....
> 
> Not enough people know anything about olfaction which is a huge shame considering our dogs view the world through their nose :Yawn


Tell me more...


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> Random musing....
> 
> Not enough people know anything about olfaction which is a huge shame considering our dogs view the world through their nose :Yawn


I love watching my guys catch and follow a scent but I just don't get excited about teaching nosework or even tracking :Bag
I'm willing to have my mind changed though


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> I love watching my guys catch and follow a scent but I just don't get excited about teaching nosework or even tracking :Bag
> I'm willing to have my mind changed though


Wow, really? I LOVE tracking, it is one of my fave things to do with the dogs. You don't even need huge fields, we've done tracks everywhere & so many surfaces. I've just started with Kato & it's fascinating seeing how different he is to Archer.

I also do some scentwork with Archer & he is amazing to watch. He is so committed to the search & finds it so reinforcing. That was sort of the 'problem' I had with him & tracking in that he loved the search more than the rewards on the articles. I had to re-think my approach to it.

Even now you should see him when he knows we are going tracking .... IGP tracking is supposed to be calm & collected but Archer doesn't believe in this! Luckily although he is fast he is accurate


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> IGP tracking is supposed to be calm & collected but Archer doesn't believe in this!


Did you see this one? :Hilarious:Hilarious


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Random musing....
> 
> Not enough people know anything about olfaction which is a huge shame considering our dogs view the world through their nose :Yawn


My two doing what Schnauzers love to do ...... sniffing. In this case searching for treats.

PS> Excuse fatso. He is losing weight believe it or not.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Did you see this one? :Hilarious:Hilarious


Yes!!!! That is Archer 100%


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Did you see this one? :Hilarious:Hilarious


That was Grisha not so long ago when the scent he was following went under the trunk of a fallen tree. Fine for him, he was small enough to crawl under it, but for the human at at the other end of the lead (me) absolutely impossible\! Took me forever to persuade him it'd be better if we walked round it instead!


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

I do really like the training threads and read most of them but don’t often comment because I don’t really feel qualified to do so! I think this is a nice idea though and will try and join in  I do do bits of training with Teddy but nothing all that impressive so never feel it’s worth sharing.!


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

I am super interested if anyone has podcast recommendations as I’ve been getting into listening to podcasts on my drives and they’re so interesting!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

@Teddy-dog The Canine Paradigm has some great podcasts. My faves were the ones with Michael Ells, Denise Fenzi, Ivan Balabanov & Birdy O Sheedy (Patience)

https://thecanineparadigm.com/podcasts/


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

tyg'smum said:


> Tell me more...


What would you like to discuss? I warn you I could go on for days if you let me :Hilarious
I love everything from social scenting right up to operational scent discrimination 

@Magyarmum I can't see your clip but as I walk a lovely Schnauzer I can imagine


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Magyarmum said:


> My two doing what Schnauzers love to do ...... sniffing. In this case searching for treats.
> 
> PS> Excuse fatso. He is losing weight believe it or not.


It's set to private, can't see anything 

@Teddy-dog I hope everyone feels welcome to participate no matter what level. Penny still doesn't have a stay! So we're all at different places 

As for podcasts, on the Canine Paradigm also listen to the episode with Sara Bruesky, that one is good too. 
I really like Drinking From The Toilet with Hannah Brannigan. But I know her in person and her sense of humor cracks me up. She has a lot of good reactivity ones too. 
Chad Mackin from Something To Bark About also interviewed Denise Fenzi and I enjoyed that one a lot.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> It's set to private, can't see anything
> 
> @Teddy-dog I hope everyone feels welcome to participate no matter what level. Penny still doesn't have a stay! So we're all at different places
> 
> ...


I'd forgotten you now have to answer lots of questions. Now set to public if anyone is interested.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> What would you like to discuss? I warn you I could go on for days if you let me :Hilarious
> I love everything from social scenting right up to operational scent discrimination
> 
> @Magyarmum I can't see your clip but as I walk a lovely Schnauzer I can imagine


I love scent stuff. This is from a seminar I went to before SOCS released their S46 course and it got me hooked


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## tyg'smum (Aug 14, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> What would you like to discuss? I warn you I could go on for days if you let me :Hilarious
> I love everything from social scenting right up to operational scent discrimination
> 
> @Magyarmum I can't see your clip but as I walk a lovely Schnauzer I can imagine


We do some scent work with Lily - scatter feeding at home (too many people chuck food scraps on verges round here for me to try that outside) and Hunt The Mum/Dad, when one of us wanders off and hides, and she has to find them: we cross and recross, and lay false trails, and she loves that. She's also started following the scent tracks of wildlife, which is fun if a bit difficult when it comes to brambles and gorse. Any other ideas welcome!


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

tyg'smum said:


> We do some scent work with Lily - scatter feeding at home (too many people chuck food scraps on verges round here for me to try that outside) and Hunt The Mum/Dad, when one of us wanders off and hides, and she has to find them: we cross and recross, and lay false trails, and she loves that. She's also started following the scent tracks of wildlife, which is fun if a bit difficult when it comes to brambles and gorse. Any other ideas welcome!


If when you're out walking you can find a a wood pile or later this year bales of hay in the fields, both are great for the scent of small furries. Grisha in particular loves searching for mice in the woodshed.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

tyg'smum said:


> We do some scent work with Lily - scatter feeding at home (too many people chuck food scraps on verges round here for me to try that outside) and Hunt The Mum/Dad, when one of us wanders off and hides, and she has to find them: we cross and recross, and lay false trails, and she loves that. She's also started following the scent tracks of wildlife, which is fun if a bit difficult when it comes to brambles and gorse. Any other ideas welcome!


Find a tree with cracks in the bark, randomly place treats in the bark. Start with them fairly low, I usually let them watch me place the treats out and the point towards the first treat to start them off.
Once she gets the idea to start sniffing when you point to a tree you can then start putting the treats higher so that she has to stretch up to find them (making sure you don't place them too high).

Find my keys is another good sniffing game to teach - if you are interested in that one I can list out how I teach it if you like?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Aw the boys are lovely @Magyarmum 

I think what put me off nosework was the trainer I initially worked with (she was the one Bates muzzle punched in the face after I warned her and she didn't believe me). 
I did dabble in nosework with Bates. He's very operant so he got the game of it quickly, but I don't think he ever got much satisfaction out of finding birch scent. And he's a dog who loves to work, so to me, it was obvious that it just wasn't his thing. 
We also dabbled in barn hunt, he LOVED that, it's right up his alley, but it wasn't my thing LOL!

When I mentioned to this trainer that I didn't think Bates really cared that much about nosework, her advice was to take him on sniffy walks, let him do lots of sniffing on walks. I tried to explain that he has no problem scenting LOL, he's a great hunter and I love watching him follow an animal trail. He knows how to follow a scent but she was stuck on he didn't know how to use his nose. 

I think in his mind, if he's doing stuff in the training building it's *with* me, and nosework is more a solo thing for the dog - which is what makes it so good for so many dogs. I think Bates would have liked nosework more if he could bring me the scent article instead of passive alerting to it 

Interestingly I just saw this article:
https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/t...YbrLfPRNFCEmXogvwGLjTWeO2F6tVI0RSyZLFGbYIgpKY

There are so many fun things to do with your dog, there's no reason to push through something the dog is clearly not enjoying.

That said, I may have to put my head back in to nosework for Penny. If I'm ever going to compete with her, with is a huge IF, nosework might be a good way to ease her in to a competitive setting. The sniffing part is so settling for nervous dogs, it might just be the thing to help her get used to a competitive venue. 
We're going to do lots of outings this summer and see how all that goes. She has another soccer game tonight to go to, she was much more relaxed at the last one, we'll see how she does.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Find a tree with cracks in the bark, randomly place treats in the bark. Start with them fairly low, I usually let them watch me place the treats out and the point towards the first treat to start them off.
> Once she gets the idea to start sniffing when you point to a tree you can then start putting the treats higher so that she has to stretch up to find them (making sure you don't place them too high).
> 
> Find my keys is another good sniffing game to teach - if you are interested in that one I can list out how I teach it if you like?


That's a great idea. I've got several old trees in my garden that would be perfect. A game like that would also help with my "project" of walking both dogs off lead. Hopefully, being otherwise occupied (so to speak) with something interesting, would help stop norti Grisha from wandering off.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Magyarmum said:


> That's a great idea. I've got several old trees in my garden that would be perfect. A game like that would also help with my "project" of walking both dogs off lead. Hopefully, being otherwise occupied (so to speak) with something interesting, would help stop norti Grisha from wandering off.


You can use it as a reward for recall


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh podcasts - listening to this at the moment https://podtail.com/en/podcast/the-...HukvLQrvStxSxhkj3bTtmMHjquKurPfcdZauiuk5Zcipo


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah Stremming at The Cognitive Canine is definitely worth a listen The Cognitive Canine | Site of Dog Trainer & Dog Sport Competitor Sarah Stremming


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Thanks for all the podcast recommendations! I'll definitely look them up. I tried to look for some myself but there are so many dog training ones out there and I don't want to listen to any bad ones :Hilarious



O2.0 said:


> It's set to private, can't see anything
> 
> @Teddy-dog I hope everyone feels welcome to participate no matter what level. Penny still doesn't have a stay! So we're all at different places
> 
> ...


thank you! I do love watching other people's training journeys! I'm not very good at sharing my own though haha. I think it's my own self consciousness more than not feeling welcome. Everyone is very welcoming here 

I've done a couple of mantrailing session with Teddy and really enjoyed them. I'd love the explore that more as he loves using his nose but there aren't any trainers close to us for me to do it regularly.

@StormyThai i love that tree idea! I'm definitely going to try it with Ted!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I read training threads, and contribute to those I feel able to, but lose the will to live with anything epic. Shorter, separate ones suit me.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> She has another soccer game tonight to go to, she was much more relaxed at the last one, we'll see how she does.


She did great! Even had an idiot kid growl in her face and she growled back then looked at me for guidance and yup, we don't deal with that. I removed her from that situation. She wasn't particularly upset, just confused. 
She had tons other positive interactions, took treats from everyone, felt relaxed enough to do some easy training in a quiet spot. I was very happy with how well she did.

Dogs' resilience never ceases to amaze me.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> She did great! Even had an idiot kid growl in her face and she growled back then looked at me for guidance and yup, we don't deal with that. I removed her from that situation. She wasn't particularly upset, just confused.
> She had tons other positive interactions, took treats from everyone, felt relaxed enough to do some easy training in a quiet spot. I was very happy with how well she did.
> 
> Dogs' resilience never ceases to amaze me.


Dogs. Much more intelligent than some humans.

Well done Penny.

I've started training a Middle with Honey. Obviously it's very much dependent on my balance. I'd say she picked it up quicker than the roundabout Paw Lift. Watch Me  but I think it was the tunnel vision of the treat between my feet. :Hilarious .


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> I've started training a Middle with Honey. Obviously it's very much dependent on my balance. I'd say she picked it up quicker than the roundabout Paw Lift. Watch Me  but I think it was the tunnel vision of the treat between my feet. :Hilarious .


I'll have to trawl through some videos and find Penny's first few attempts, she has no chill and getting her to stay in position was a challenge LOL  
The little ones move fast too, it's hard to get your timing down!


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Aw the boys are lovely @Magyarmum
> .


Thank you. Mini Schnauzers really are a great breed for someone of my age to own. They're uncomplicated and happy go lucky little dogs and most of the time a delight to own. All they ask for is lots of love and cuddles and they're yours forever!

Today we went pavement plodding through the city centre. One of my favourite places for training along with a few busy supermarket car parks we also go to. The boys were stars and I was so proud of them especially as they didn't get a single treat (I'd left them in the car)!

I've posted a few pictures on Random Doggy Chat for anyone that's interested.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

If you haven't seen Denise Fenzi's latest FB post, go watch it, it's so hilarious and heart warming! 
Somehow some random person ended up in her FB live chat on behavior chains, she went live with him and helped him with his corgi live and it was the sweetest funniest interaction.
This is exactly what dog training should be - dog friendly AND people friendly


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Been messing around with a hold for Penny.
I don't know if we'll go all the way to a formal retrieve, we'll just see how this goes.

At 30 seconds in, I see if she's ready to offer picking the stick up, she's not. It's too confusing so I have to drop back and re-set her. But that's what training is, try it, see what happens, adjust, move on. Hopefully I'll be videoing when she does get the picking up part!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> If you haven't seen Denise Fenzi's latest FB post, go watch it, it's so hilarious and heart warming!
> Somehow some random person ended up in her FB live chat on behavior chains, she went live with him and helped him with his corgi live and it was the sweetest funniest interaction.
> This is exactly what dog training should be - dog friendly AND people friendly


It was so great! She is one of my fave trainers & am really enjoying her videos & the way she is trying to bring the dog training communities together.

Another podcast that I'm going to try & listen to over the weekend is Ivan Balabanov interviewing Ian Dunbar:
Training Without Conflict Podcast Episode Four: Dr. Ian Dunbar - YouTube


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## Guest (May 1, 2021)

I don't know if this is the right thread for this so feel free to tell me to go elsewhere!  But I didn't really think it deserved its own thread.

Can someone talk to me about barrier frustration? 

Elliot is very dog friendly, but whenever the neighbour dog comes to the fence, Elliot is like a hound possessed - he attacks the fence and looks really aggressive. He did the same thing in our previous house where 2 of our back neighbours had dogs. However, if he meets the dog away from the fence, he's fine. An example from today - he had a go at the fence earlier when our neighbour's small breed dog was out at the fence line. Then a couple of hours later my neighbour brought back my clippers I had lent her and brought the dog to show me its haircut, and Elliot happily mooched around our garden with it. So, he's not territorial, he just doesn't like dogs when a fence is between them.

What's going on there?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

There are two types of barrier frustration.
One is based on fear and the other is frustration.

Going by your account it sounds like Elliot is just so frustrated that there is something on the other side of the fence that he really wants to say hi too but can't so the frustration bubbles over into an aggressive display.
Can you recall him away from the fence?
What happens if you stop him getting to the fence with either a leash or another internal barrier?


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

McKenzie said:


> I don't know if this is the right thread for this so feel free to tell me to go elsewhere!  But I didn't really think it deserved its own thread.
> 
> Can someone talk to me about barrier frustration?
> 
> ...


It's a very common problem in Hungary. Walk down any residential street and every dog who lives there will rush to the fence and bark furiously at every dog or person that walks by their property. Owners don't stop their dogs doing this. The attitude is "Why have a dog and bark yourself"

Grisha is the offender in my house. Gwylim sometimes barks but most of the time he can't be bothered. They are allowed to bark to alert me when someone come to the gate to see me.

What I do with Grisha is first to recall him and reward him with a treat if he obeys. If he doesn't obey me I'll then get his lead and go and collect him and take him into the house! Sometimes when he's being really stubborn and ignores me he gets told "Inside" in a stern voice which usually does the trick but I do make sure to reward him and make a fuss of him for being a good boy.

Forgot to add when we're out walking neither dog is bothered by seeing other dogs, people of bicycles the way they are in their own garden.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

McKenzie said:


> Elliot is very dog friendly, but whenever the neighbour dog comes to the fence, Elliot is like a hound possessed - he attacks the fence and looks really aggressive. He did the same thing in our previous house where 2 of our back neighbours had dogs. However, if he meets the dog away from the fence, he's fine. An example from today - he had a go at the fence earlier when our neighbour's small breed dog was out at the fence line. Then a couple of hours later my neighbour brought back my clippers I had lent her and brought the dog to show me its haircut, and Elliot happily mooched around our garden with it. So, he's not territorial, he just doesn't like dogs when a fence is between them.
> 
> What's going on there?


I agree it sounds like frustration spilling in to aggression. 
I'd call him away, go collect him if need be. The less he gets to practice the frustration the better. 
If you can, anticipate when he's about to run up to the fence and preempt him there. The goal is to lessen the frustration and lower the arousal.


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## Guest (May 1, 2021)

Thanks everyone. It’s rarely an issue where we live now, but was a huge PITA at our last house - he had to go out on a lead which was frustrating as we had a lovely big garden. In this house the other dog doesn’t usually come to the fence so it’s much less frequent, but the change in behavior from attacking the fence to happily allowing the other dog in his own garden got me curious.

I’ve been going to collect him when it happens and he’s definitely improving - it’s getting much easier to break him off and get him away.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> I've started training a Middle with Honey. Obviously it's very much dependent on my balance. I'd say she picked it up quicker than the roundabout Paw Lift. Watch Me  but I think it was the tunnel vision of the treat between my feet. :Hilarious .


I was thinking about you and balance teaching Honey "middle" and I wonder if you could use a long cooking spoon or spatula to deliver the reward so you don't have to bend over? 
Like, put some peanut butter or squeezy cheese on a wooden kitchen spoon and let her lick a few licks off for the reward.

I found some earlier videos of the beginnings of Penny's "middle." I tried to teach her to go around my legs and in position, but she had a better idea and decided she likes hopping, spinning and backing up in to position better   Which is fine really, as long as she gets there.

Then yesterday I realized her way actually is better if she's on leash. If she spins in to position from the front no leash wrapped around my leg and she still gets the safety of being in that position.

Since it's the geek out on training stuff thread I thought I'd put the progression all here in one go. 
It's interesting to see how she went from being not so sure about the position and quick to pop out of it, to really seeking it out and finding it a rewarding place to be


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I'm happy to join in if I can.

I enjoy training with Bungo and he loves doing it, his tails wagging the whole time and he gets so excited, I just end up feeling like I'm not good enough as I struggle to think of things to do with him, or I can't work out how to teach something. Maybe I'll get some ideas of things we can do together on here.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

ForestWomble said:


> I'm happy to join in if I can.
> 
> I enjoy training with Bungo and he loves doing it, his tails wagging the whole time and he gets so excited, I just end up feeling like I'm not good enough as I struggle to think of things to do with him, or I can't work out how to teach something. Maybe I'll get some ideas of things we can do together on here.


Oh you are absolutely good enough!!
What sorts of things does he like doing? 
Does he have a hand touch? You can turn that in to all sorts of things


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I wouldn't dare do that with my two, because my balance isn't great standing let alone bending over. I'd hate to keel over and squash the boys to death [/QUOTE]


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> I was thinking about you and balance teaching Honey "middle" and I wonder if you could use a long cooking spoon or spatula to deliver the reward so you don't have to bend over?
> Like, put some peanut butter or squeezy cheese on a wooden kitchen spoon and let her lick a few licks off for the reward.
> 
> I found some earlier videos of the beginnings of Penny's "middle." I tried to teach her to go around my legs and in position, but she had a better idea and decided she likes hopping, spinning and backing up in to position better   Which is fine really, as long as she gets there.
> ...


That's an idea.  Though I think I might have to smear it near the bottom of my walking stick instead of a long handled spoon, as she only comes up to my ankles.  :Hilarious



Magyarmum said:


> I wouldn't dare do that with my two, because my balance isn't great standing let alone bending over. I'd hate to keel over and squash the boys to death


Same here, which is why @O2.0 is suggesting using a long handled.... Something to give the reward.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> That's an idea.  Though I think I might have to smear it near the bottom of my walking stick instead of a long handled spoon, as she only comes up to my ankles.  :Hilarious
> 
> Same here, which is why @O2.0 is suggesting using a long handled.... Something to give the reward.


It's the going in between the legs I'm worried about I think I'll stick to them standing at my side or just in front of me which they often do.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Oh you are absolutely good enough!!
> What sorts of things does he like doing?
> Does he have a hand touch? You can turn that in to all sorts of things


Thank you 

Oh I think he enjoys everything, but if he just starts offering things he tends to do 
Spin/Twist
Wave - if he doesn't know what to do he'll start waving his paw all over the place :Hilarious
Under (goes under the 'chair and stops level with my legs - the finish looks like your 'middle' with Penny I guess)

I have taught a touch but it's not his favourite thing to do.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

@LinznMilly earlier this year I taught Cad to catch dropped treats on cue without moving too much out of position and it's been a bit of a game changer. It took ages to teach, starting with literally just shoving the food directly into his mouth with me sat on a chair with him sat between my knees when I said "catch", then a couple of mm, then 1cm, tiny increments up. And then tiny increments me changing my body position and the angles until I was stood up. And then tiny increments changing where he was in relation to me.

So now rather than "yes" *bend and give treat* I go "yes" "catch" *drop treat*. I'm still proofing it with different human/ dog positions and different light levels and different wind details (wind influences him getting the scent and being able to pinpoint the treat as it falls), but invaluable skill for us. You can fit so many more reps of what you're teaching in the timeframe compared to the faff of using an arm extender, which means you make progress on what you're teaching so much faster too.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Torin. said:


> @LinznMilly earlier this year I taught Cad to catch dropped treats on cue without moving too much out of position and it's been a bit of a game changer. It took ages to teach, starting with literally just shoving the food directly into his mouth with me sat on a chair with him sat between my knees when I said "catch", then a couple of mm, then 1cm, tiny increments up. And then tiny increments me changing my body position and the angles until I was stood up. And then tiny increments changing where he was in relation to me.
> 
> So now rather than "yes" *bend and give treat* I go "yes" "catch" *drop treat*. I'm still proofing it with different human/ dog positions and different light levels and different wind details (wind influences him getting the scent and being able to pinpoint the treat as it falls), but invaluable skill for us. You can fit so many more reps of what you're teaching in the timeframe compared to the faff of using an arm extender, which means you make progress on what you're teaching so much faster too.


That's a good idea too. Although we are talking about the dog who got the jist of Look At Me by giving Paw, so if it took you ages to teach Cad, don't hold your breath. :Hilarious I might have to reward a rollover first. :Hilarious :Hilarious


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## Veba (Dec 18, 2017)

ForestWomble said:


> I'm happy to join in if I can.
> 
> I enjoy training with Bungo and he loves doing it, his tails wagging the whole time and he gets so excited, I just end up feeling like I'm not good enough as I struggle to think of things to do with him, or I can't work out how to teach something. Maybe I'll get some ideas of things we can do together on here.


This is me too. I love the idea of doing new things with him but get very overwhelmed. We do basic stuff but Reilly is smart and I'd like to do more.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

ForestWomble said:


> I have taught a touch but it's not his favourite thing to do.


Will he follow your hand? If he knows touch you can turn that in to using your hand as a lure and some dogs like that better. 
He may also like a jump up to touch?


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> That's a good idea too. Although we are talking about the dog who got the jist of Look At Me by giving Paw, so if it took you ages to teach Cad, don't hold your breath. :Hilarious I might have to reward a rollover first. :Hilarious :Hilarious


Cad understood the 'rules of the game' aka had his lightbulb moment really quickly, he just doesn't have the best hand-eye co-ordination. Or, er, nose-mouth coordination :Hilarious But that made it fun to teach!


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Will he follow your hand? If he knows touch you can turn that in to using your hand as a lure and some dogs like that better.
> He may also like a jump up to touch?


He follows my hand really well, I think I've taught most things that way 

Edit: Just remembered - all my cues to him are by hand signal, not sure why but I can do a whole training session without uttering a word and he knows what I'm asking, if I try just using my voice, apart from Sit he hasn't a clue what I'm asking.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ForestWomble said:


> if I try just using my voice, apart from Sit he hasn't a clue what I'm asking.


If you want him to learn a verbal cue for things and he knows your hand signal - try giving the hand signal for what you want and then straight after (as he is following the hand signal) give your verbal cue. 
Keep doing this for a few repetitions and then give the hand and verbal cue at the same time for a few repetitions - in time you can then drop the hand cue.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

LOL I was just going to suggest transfering the cue 

I do it a little differently than Stormy, you can try both ways and see which one works better for you.

Another way is to use the dog's natural tendency to anticipate you. So: new cue (your word) pause, old cue (hand signal). The dog should figure out that sit preceded the known cue and eventually understand that sit also means the same thing as the hand cue.

New cue, pause, old cue. Rinse and repeat


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

I’d like to transfer a few of teds tricks onto a verbal cue. I use my hands quite a lot so he normally learns it from a hand cue before verbal. I’ve managed to do it with middle - it took a while but now he has a really strong motivation for ‘middle’! I’ve been trying with spin but not been so successful.

so should I do my hand signal for spin and then say spin? I’ve been saying them pretty much at the same time. And someone else told me to say spin and then do the hand signal immediately after and he should pick it up that way too (I guess as he should start anticipating the hand signal after the word spin?)?


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Magyarmum said:


> It's the going in between the legs I'm worried about I think I'll stick to them standing at my side or just in front of me which they often do.


 Very wise.
I taught Tod 'Place' (middle) and a couple of times he's decided unexpectedly that's what I want; If a 20K dog suddenly barges your legs it upsets your equilibrium a bit!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Teddy-dog said:


> so should I do my hand signal for spin and then say spin? I've been saying them pretty much at the same time. And someone else told me to say spin and then do the hand signal immediately after and he should pick it up that way too (I guess as he should start anticipating the hand signal after the word spin?)?


No, new cue first.
In your case the new cue is the verbal cue. You'll say spin, pause, give the hand signal. Rinse and repeat, then lengthen the pause and see what happens. And yes, you're relying on him anticipating the known cue.

Here's Penny doing sit:










The second video is cute, you can see her really think about it for a second


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> No, new cue first.
> In your case the new cue is the verbal cue. You'll say spin, pause, give the hand signal. Rinse and repeat, then lengthen the pause and see what happens. And yes, you're relying on him anticipating the known cue.
> 
> Here's Penny doing sit:
> ...


ahh thanks! I totally read the other post wrong! That makes sense 

oh bless her she is so cute! You can see the cogs turning for sure


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Thank you @StormyThai and @O2.0 
At the moment, like @Teddy-dog I say the cue at the same time as my hand signal, so I want to stop doing that and do them separately?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

ForestWomble said:


> Thank you @StormyThai and @O2.0
> At the moment, like @Teddy-dog I say the cue at the same time as my hand signal, so I want to stop doing that and do them separately?


That's one way yes 

Order is new cue, pause, old cue. 
For you it will be say the cue, pause, hand signal. 
Dogs are excellent at anticipation, so Bungo should quickly start anticipating that when you say something that's going to quickly be followed by the hand cue he already knows, and he'll just do the behavior without waiting for the hand signal.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

@O2.0 you did say it the same way round as @StormyThai (which is what I do too, old cue new cue) in your first post, while saying you do it differently, so that's likely what's caused @Teddy-dog's confusion. Maybe a quick edit?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Torin. said:


> @O2.0 you did say it the same way round as @StormyThai (which is what I do too, old cue new cue) in your first post, while saying you do it differently, so that's likely what's caused @Teddy-dog's confusion. Maybe a quick edit?


Oh shit you're right! 
Edited now I think?!


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## Tobytoby.co.uk (May 2, 2021)

Dog behaviour and training is such a great fascination. Favourite command for me at the moment is “you’re wet” our boy freezes, thinks and stays off of sofas and other mud magnets - goes to lie in his bed instead


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Torin. said:


> @O2.0 you did say it the same way round as @StormyThai (which is what I do too, old cue new cue) in your first post, while saying you do it differently, so that's likely what's caused @Teddy-dog's confusion. Maybe a quick edit?


haha I was so confused :Hilarious


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Teddy-dog said:


> haha I was so confused :Hilarious


I'm so sorry! I re read that and was like what is @Torin. on about? And then I read it again and saw what I did :Facepalm
In my head I was saying it right! Does that count? :Wacky


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Tobytoby.co.uk said:


> Dog behaviour and training is such a great fascination. Favourite command for me at the moment is "you're wet" our boy freezes, thinks and stays off of sofas and other mud magnets - goes to lie in his bed instead


Have you thought of putting a "shake" on cue so you can ask for it outdoors to get the worst off?


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Linda Weasel said:


> Very wise.
> I taught Tod 'Place' (middle) and a couple of times he's decided unexpectedly that's what I want; If a 20K dog suddenly barges your legs it upsets your equilibrium a bit!


Many years ago I was looking after Sorrel my parents Lab, whilst they went on holiday. It started raining heavily, so I ran out to collect the dry washing off the line, followed by Sorrel. I stopped, she didn't and she crashed into the back of my legs. I landed on my bottom and broke my coccyx. For the next three months, I could only sleep on my stomach, could hardly bear to sit on a chair, and had to crawl up and down stairs on my hands and knees. :Arghh


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## Tobytoby.co.uk (May 2, 2021)

JoanneF said:


> Have you thought of putting a "shake" on cue so you can ask for it outdoors to get the worst off?


ooh I like that


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

JoanneF said:


> Have you thought of putting a "shake" on cue so you can ask for it outdoors to get the worst off?


Any ideas how I can train Grisha to use the shower would be gratefully received


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## Veba (Dec 18, 2017)

For far too long Reilly has been a puller, to the extent I'm nearly in tears. Since Saturday we've had 6 on lead walks and he's been amazing. I have no idea why but I'd love for it to be the normal. Mostly he's sniffing up ahead (which I want) but sometimes he'll come to heel for treats. He decides when he's had enough of that though 

Any advice on how to keep it going?


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Hello everyone, just after a bit of advice and not sure it warrants it’s own thread! I walk a ridgeback, he’s a lovely dog, about 18 months old but gets quite over excited at times. He’s a bit reactive to other dogs we meet while out, due to frustration I believe. I have been walking him with one other calm dog and he is getting much better with his excitement levels with them and, most of the time, mooches around sniffing with them. He’s on lead as I would not trust him not to barrel over to other dogs and be a nuisance. He was with another walker from when he was 6 months and they had a secure field and he was just let off to do as he liked and you can imagine what that was like! His owners pulled him out because he was getting too OTT.

He finds interactions with me quite exciting though. Generally he is pretty chilled on a walk, I don’t allow him to get in the other dogs face and I walk in quiet areas so we generally have no reactions and if we do come across a dog, I get distance and reward. But I can’t use any kind of silly voice/do anything too exciting as he finds it too exciting and jumps up at me (like a kangaroo and will nose punch my face...). I ignore him or ask for a sit and praise him when he’s calm but it makes doing things with him quite difficult!
I like to do bits of training with the dogs and I’ve been trying to brush up on his focus and recall but again, this can cause over excitement. I like to teach most of my dogs a hand touch but haven’t been able to do too much with him.
I have 2 labs that I’ve walked since they were pups and they got excited and jumped up and I just ignored them/turned my back or asked for an alternative behaviour (sit) and they are fine now but this jumping up seems different in a way. It doesn’t take much for him to get over threshold at all! When I first started walking him I could barely stroke him without getting nose punched.

when I go collect him, the owners are home, if it’s the woman he is fine, she doesn’t really chat we say hi/how are you and lead him up and he’s fine, chilled. If it’s the guy he sometimes like to have a chat, not for long, but the dog will be quivering and whining and will try and jump on him and on me. I think his owners do treat for positive things but I think he gets punished too for wrong doing... I think some of his behaviour is a bit anxiety maybe and frustration.

anyway, I’m just wondering if there’s anything else I could be doing with him? Other than ignore or ask for an alternative behaviour. Are there any calm games I can play with him? We do lots of treat scattering on our walks which has helped with the calm around other dogs.

Ive probably made him out worse than he is as it doesn’t happen all that often on walks but I do spend a lot of time letting him sniff and just rewarding for check ins so not really asking him anything.and I would like to do more with him


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Veba said:


> For far too long Reilly has been a puller, to the extent I'm nearly in tears. Since Saturday we've had 6 on lead walks and he's been amazing. I have no idea why but I'd love for it to be the normal. Mostly he's sniffing up ahead (which I want) but sometimes he'll come to heel for treats. He decides when he's had enough of that though
> 
> Any advice on how to keep it going?


I'm no expert on lead walking but have you taught him to give it to lead pressure? I think it's Kikopup that had a good YouTube video on it! So when he hits the end of the leash he knows to come back not keep going. I would keep rewarding when he comes back to check in with you and that should teach him that hanging out with you is fun! I'm sure others have much more detailed advice though :Hilarious


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## Veba (Dec 18, 2017)

Teddy-dog said:


> I'm no expert on lead walking but have you taught him to give it to lead pressure? I think it's Kikopup that had a good YouTube video on it! So when he hits the end of the leash he knows to come back not keep going. I would keep rewarding when he comes back to check in with you and that should teach him that hanging out with you is fun! I'm sure others have much more detailed advice though :Hilarious


Yes, tried that and was consistent for months but it just trained him to stop and wait. I still do it when he reaches the end of the lead. He's no longer interested in treats except on his terms.

Two more good walks today. OH took him for the first time since he's been good and think he's been swapped with another dog


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Teddy-dog said:


> as he finds it too exciting and jumps up at me (like a kangaroo and will nose punch my face...).


Sounds totally typical for a teenage rhodesian  They can be very bouncy and they do love to muzzle punch things and swipe things with their paws.

Since you know it's coming, can you just avoid it, side step the lunge. I find these behaviors are best ignored as much as possible. Particularly if he's being punished for it (which can be really confusing for him). You know how older dogs just dodge and ignore irritating puppies? Same idea.

In addition give him some equally connecting behaviors that aren't quite as painful to you  
If you have the hand touch down, ask him to jump up to a hand touch, but holding your hand out to keep him away from you. 
Tug and thump him on the shoulders while tugging - he gets the contact but on your terms.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Sounds totally typical for a teenage rhodesian  They can be very bouncy and they do love to muzzle punch things and swipe things with their paws.
> 
> Since you know it's coming, can you just avoid it, side step the lunge. I find these behaviors are best ignored as much as possible. Particularly if he's being punished for it (which can be really confusing for him). You know how older dogs just dodge and ignore irritating puppies? Same idea.
> 
> ...


Haha I did think it would be typical of a ridgeback but he just seems easy to tip over the edge! I can normally see it coming but sometimes if I'm praising another dog that gets him all riled up too :Hilarious Yes, he came to me thinking all dogs wanted to be paw swiped!

thank you, I have been ignoring him and turning my back on him I just wasn't sure if there was anything else I could be doing so it's nice to know I'm doing the right thing! 
We are working on hand touch but he does get excited and jump up at my face after a few goes but getting him to jump at my hand might be a good outlet for that thanks! He is smart and I try and throw treats on the floor as that diverts him from me as he can nibble sometimes too. I'll try him with a tug too! He's such a lovely boy, I only have him 2 days a week so it's hard when other things might be going on at home but hopefully he'll learn what happens with me


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Veba said:


> Yes, tried that and was consistent for months but it just trained him to stop and wait. I still do it when he reaches the end of the lead. He's no longer interested in treats except on his terms.
> 
> Two more good walks today. OH took him for the first time since he's been good and think he's been swapped with another dog


ahh it's hard if they're not motivated by treats! What does he find rewarding? Oh that's good  maybe you've cracked it without realising :Hilarious


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## Veba (Dec 18, 2017)

Teddy-dog said:


> ahh it's hard if they're not motivated by treats! What does he find rewarding? Oh that's good  maybe you've cracked it without realising :Hilarious


And we've gone backwards again. He loves food but loves sniffs more! I've tried keeping him close and cueing him to sniff but I'd prefer to let him sniff the whole way. I pass many dogs on my walks and I've never seen any sniff like him.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Channel that sniffer...teach him to use his nose with you, add environmental rewards (you pull = no sniffing, you don't pull = sniff as much as you like).
Do you have a front clip harness? I usually suggest one so that the dog has a clear difference between walking nicely and being able to range about.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Well might as well put this in here. 
Remember way back at the beginning of the thread I was teaching Penny a spin from heel? 
This is where it's at now:






Not the best heel, not the prettiest spin, but she's happy and understands what to do. I can work on it from here


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

And some more work today. It's still pretty sloppy (doesn't help that her handler isn't crisp either) but there's good stuff in there and she's happy and eager.

A while back someone posted a video that talked about correcting a dog for forging. 
This is another option. 
If I spin Penny every time she forges, it re-sets her to the correct position without dampening any enthusiasm. She wants to move forward, that's why she's forging, so spinning her still 'corrects' her but without any fall-out. And then when she is in correct position she gets rewarded, so her rewards aren't poisoned in to being non-punishment markers.

But the biggest thing is that I keep her happy and enthusiastic. Dogs who aren't specifically bred to have a high drive to work don't do well with too many corrections, you lose too much drive and you don't have a whole lot to begin with. 
Arguably high drive dogs don't do well with corrections either, it's just the margin of error is greater because you have more drive to work with to begin with. But they can get antsy and frenetic in their drive if they're too conflicted.

Anyway, that's all speculation and I'm sure those more experienced with working line dogs have much better input. 
I just know that I've worked way too hard to build Penny's trust and enthusiasm to work with me to even think about damaging any of it with a correction. Particularly not for something like a pretty heel seeing as she may never even make it in to the obedience ring!


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Haven't done a lot work Teddy recently (bad mum :Bag)

but I did take this little video of the ridgeback I mentioned further up the thread. I've been working on hand target with him and he's really enjoying it. He was much better on his walk today and did no jumping up. There are moments in the video where I can tell he would've jumped up but he didn't (and even chose to sit!). Then I did a bit with the lab as he can find it exciting having other dogs interacting with me (as you can see at one point) but I'm able to interrupt him and do a bit with both


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Teddy-dog said:


> Haven't done a lot work Teddy recently (bad mum :Bag)
> 
> but I did take this little video of the ridgeback I mentioned further up the thread. I've been working on hand target with him and he's really enjoying it. He was much better on his walk today and did no jumping up. There are moments in the video where I can tell he would've jumped up but he didn't (and even chose to sit!). Then I did a bit with the lab as he can find it exciting having other dogs interacting with me (as you can see at one point) but I'm able to interrupt him and do a bit with both


Oh I love it! They both did so well! 
Yes, that rhodie is just a big teenage oaf LOL it's oozing out of him  He did super well though!


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Teddy-dog said:


> Haven't done a lot work Teddy recently (bad mum :Bag)
> 
> but I did take this little video of the ridgeback I mentioned further up the thread. I've been working on hand target with him and he's really enjoying it. He was much better on his walk today and did no jumping up. There are moments in the video where I can tell he would've jumped up but he didn't (and even chose to sit!). Then I did a bit with the lab as he can find it exciting having other dogs interacting with me (as you can see at one point) but I'm able to interrupt him and do a bit with both


Lovely video, nice work! They both look like lovely dogs.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

I'm geeking out on the IMDT instructors course this week. Getting lots of new ideas for my classes and spending time just me and Holly which is nice. Haven't had this much time just the two of us since 2018.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Teddy-dog said:


> Haven't done a lot work Teddy recently (bad mum :Bag)
> 
> but I did take this little video of the ridgeback I mentioned further up the thread. I've been working on hand target with him and he's really enjoying it. He was much better on his walk today and did no jumping up. There are moments in the video where I can tell he would've jumped up but he didn't (and even chose to sit!). Then I did a bit with the lab as he can find it exciting having other dogs interacting with me (as you can see at one point) but I'm able to interrupt him and do a bit with both


Really good job.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Oh I love it! They both did so well!
> Yes, that rhodie is just a big teenage oaf LOL it's oozing out of him  He did super well though!


Haha he is isn't he! He did do well today. Normally, at some point, he becomes too excited and just jumps at me but he seemed to be really focusing on what I was asking him.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Sairy said:


> Lovely video, nice work! They both look like lovely dogs.


thank you! They are  the lab I've done walks/visits for him since he was 8 weeks old so we have quite a good relationship but I've only been working with the ridgeback for about 2 months 



Sarah H said:


> Really good job.


thank you!


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## hamsterlover123 (Mar 20, 2021)

Great idea! I will help to add on if I can! I teach my dogs some silly things though! Kinda like a bunch of different kind of dances


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Well by George I think we've got it!
Too bad her handler can't walk in a straight line 
Little dog heeling is harder than it looks!!


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

I have got into a bit of a training rut, Dylan can do quite a few things but I tend to just run through them. Would love some ideas to move him along a bit! He can do hand touch, spin, middle, go backwards, stay, rollover, paws up, shake hands, go to place and working on take a bow. He loves learning new things, but have run out of inspiration a bit.


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## Guest (May 18, 2021)

Barkingmad57 said:


> I have got into a bit of a training rut, Dylan can do quite a few things but I tend to just run through them. Would love some ideas to move him along a bit! He can do hand touch, spin, middle, go backwards, stay, rollover, paws up, shake hands, go to place and working on take a bow. He loves learning new things, but have run out of inspiration a bit.


Off the top of my head:
Backwards circles
Weave through legs
Feet up on somethng
Pivot with feet on something
'Say your prayers' 
Feet on feet 
Feet on feet and walking forwards/backwards/turning
Send away to go around a cone/tree
Sustained hand touch
Lying with head flat on ground

Then put tricks together e.g.:
Sendaway to go around a pole and come back through your legs and end by your side
Weave through legs for a few repetitions and then circle around you
Go backwards, then spin in a half-circle, and back up to finish between your legs


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Thanks McKenzie, I've written them all down - we're going to be busy!


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## Animal Freak (Jun 12, 2017)

My two dogs are complete opposites when it comes to training. It's been interesting to see how they differ.

Stella absolutely loves it. No food involved and she has a blast. Having a food reward just makes it that much better. The problem is she gets a little too excited. Outside she'll get to growling and even barking so she can't always hear what I say. Even when she's (mostly) quiet, she gets so excited that one second of not doing anything is too long. If you don't give her a command in time, she'll start doing whatever she thinks might get a treat. Sometimes if you do give her a command, she does that trick (or skips it) and then a bunch more too. So tell her to spin and she'll spin, roll over, stand on her hind legs, and throw in a beg for a good measure. 

Osiris, on the other hand, can be difficult to motivate. He likes food, but he'd prefer you just give it to him. He didn't start off with any toy motivation at all. Now he does like them, but gets bored quickly. And he's sooo slow. Get him as excited as you want, the second you give a command it's like he goes in slow motion. I don't think he dislikes training, but it doesn't seem to be his favorite thing either. He also just tends to be a calmer dog. He's difficult to excite and it goes pretty quick when he does get excited.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Dylan gets really excited and does anything he thinks will get a treat at first rather than what I'm asking him to do. He does calm down if I ignore it 
Yesterday he made me laugh, I sometimes get him to get up on the sofa and jump off again, we did paws up on a little stool, I said "off" and he did a dramatic leap as if he was jumping off the sofa!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Another little update on Penny's spins about a month in.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

What a little superstar she is. She lifts me every time I see her.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

JoanneF said:


> What a little superstar she is. She lifts me every time I see her.


Thank you! She is too much fun to work with, can't help but find things for her to do!


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

What a cool thread 

So the other day I was watching some tik tok and a video came up of someone walking their dog on lead and an off lead dog came over. She told them hers was nervous etc and asked for the other person to recall the dog. 

Anyway some guy was going a duet/cover I don't know the term they use but yeah he was doing a commentary on the video and was saying she done the right thing asking for them to recall the dog, but he also said she shouldn't of praised her dog (she kept telling him he was a good boy while the other dog was there) because the dog was in a nervous state and praising this only reinforces the behaviour and tells them they are a good dog for being nervous? 

Thoughts?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jason25 said:


> but he also said she shouldn't of praised her dog (she kept telling him he was a good boy while the other dog was there) because the dog was in a nervous state and praising this only reinforces the behaviour and tells them they are a good dog for being nervous?


The short version is that you can't reinforce emotions, you can only reinforce behaviors. In other words if the dog was being calm, she may have just been reinforcing the calm behavior.

Longer version - as usual, it's much more complex than that. 
In a reactivity/fearful type situation, most dogs aren't going to get enough reinforcement from praise alone for it to make much of a difference either way.
Yes, yes, I know tons of dogs who enjoy a good boy/girl mine among them, but when it comes to actually affecting behavior in a significant way like you would need to with a reactive dog, praise is neither here nor there. Mostly I find it helps the owner.

As for reinforcing emotions, yes, you do have to be careful about that, but not in the way the commenter seems to think. 
Whenever we teach a behavior, an emotion gets connected to that behavior. So if the dog is nervous or conflicted when he/she learns sit, then for that dog, sit will become a nervous/conflicted behavior. Likewise if the sit is taught as a happy behavior but going forward the only time the dog is asked to sit is in situations where he doesn't feel good (like maybe a group stay in competition) then he will start to associate bad feelings with sitting. So in that way, yes, you can in a way reinforce emotions.

But then the opposite is also true. If every time I say "this way" my reactive dog gets to move away from whatever is bothering him, *and* he gets treats and fun and praise, then "this way" can become a happy behavior that makes scary things go away and makes good feelings happen.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> The short version is that you can't reinforce emotions, you can only reinforce behaviors. In other words if the dog was being calm, she may have just been reinforcing the calm behavior.
> 
> Longer version - as usual, it's much more complex than that.
> In a reactivity/fearful type situation, most dogs aren't going to get enough reinforcement from praise alone for it to make much of a difference either way.
> ...


Sorry I may not of worded my post correctly, I think what he was getting at was the dog on leash had its tale in between its legs trying to avoid the other dog (but was not reacting by barking/growling etc) and with her praising it while it was doing this was just reinforcing it so in theory would do it every time it met a dog?

I'll try and find it :Watching

But yeah what you are saying makes sense 

Anyway, on the topic of training, we got some canicross gear we use mainly for hiking but I was wondering if there's any sort of games/exercises/training I can do with her at home in the garden? She's a good puller but does not always go in a straight direction and will zigzag to go to all the different smells :Hilarious


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

How do we know that "good dog" is viewed as praise or a reward by the dog in that context?
A soothing "Good dog" may just be enough to stop the dog reacting in that moment until the handler gets them out of the situation.

Can owners make over reactivity worse by rewarding the wrong thing? Absolutely but for me their isn't enough information to say that this dog even viewed "Good dog" as a reward/praise.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jason25 said:


> Sorry I may not of worded my post correctly, I think what he was getting at was the dog on leash had its tale in between its legs trying to avoid the other dog (but was not reacting by barking/growling etc) and with her praising it while it was doing this was just reinforcing it so in theory would do it every time it met a dog?


I guess you'd have to see where the dog is in a month. And test the praise in situations where the dog isn't reacting. If the dog starts tucking his tail and avoiding things every time he hears good boy, then sure, you've accidentally reinforced a fearful behavior. 
Do I think that would happen? Not very likely (never say never with dogs  )

Okay so geeky answer here:
Technically, reinforcement, as in reinforcing a behavior in operant conditioning, is only going to happen if a dog is in his operant brain. I'm sure there is a better technical term and explanation for this, but essentially operant conditioning doesn't happen when a dog is in fight or flight mode.

The dog will make associations, sure. He can associate the handler with safety for example, but he's not thinking "huh, I tucked my tail and got scared, my handler said 'good boy' I should tuck my tail and get scared more often."

When you train in true operant conditioning, you can really see the cogs turning and the dog thinking through trying to figure out what they did to get the marker. Reactivity is just that, the dog is reacting, not thinking. Whatever the dog is learning in the middle of a reactive episode, it's not operant conditioning as in offering a behavior and having it reinforced.

For my guys good boy/girl is more of a keep going marker - I like what you're doing, keep doing it. 
For other dogs, good boy/girl might be meaningless because they don't hear it in enough clear context to give it meaning. It's just their handler chattering, which for some dogs can indeed be soothing. 
Then there are dogs for whom good boy/girl is a non-punishment marker. If the dog is punished for mistakes, a "good" can come to mean to the dog "you're not going to get punished." These are often the dogs who look like they really respond well to praise, but it doesn't mean what you think it means. Try using that same "good" to get the dog to offer behaviors and you'll see the difference.

Of all the things handlers can do while a dog is reacting, saying 'good boy' is not high on my list of problematic handler behaviors  I tend to tell my dogs "you're fine" which is kind of dumb because the dog is clearly not fine, but I do that as much for me as for the dog. It's hard to get as irritated with your dog acting like a fool when you're using a soothing, sing song voice. That's also why I recommend handlers sing to their reactive dogs. That's more for the handler than the dog. 
Keeping the human's emotions regulated and the human's brain in operant mode is a pretty important part of the whole picture.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I just posted this in Penny's progress thread but figured I'd post here too because there's interesting stuff in there.

Penny doesn't have a stay cue. I'm building duration with her other cues so that eventually things like sit means sit until I tell you to do something else.

Part of what she struggles with is distance from me which is pretty common. A platform like this well cover is a great way to teach a dog cues away from the handler. 
First you build the platform up to be a highly rewarded place and the dog feels good on it, from there, ask for behaviors, slowly increasing the distance you are from the platform.

The other thing in this video, she makes a mistake right off. The only 'consequence' is no reward. No need for a negative marker, correction of any sort, just re-set and try again.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I just posted this in Penny's progress thread but figured I'd post here too because there's interesting stuff in there.
> 
> Penny doesn't have a stay cue. I'm building duration with her other cues so that eventually things like sit means sit until I tell you to do something else.
> 
> ...


I've never done 'stay' or 'wait', partly because I always said the wrong word at the wrong time. So, like you do, 'sit' means sit until I give you another command or release. It kills me when I see people struggling with these commands when they're surplus to requirements.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Linda Weasel said:


> I've never done 'stay' or 'wait', partly because I always said the wrong word at the wrong time. So, like you do, 'sit' means sit until I give you another command or release. It kills me when I see people struggling with these commands when they're surplus to requirements.


I use "wait" with both my boys, particularly when we're out walking. If they get too far away from me I'll tell them to "wait" which means they must stand where they are until I catch up with them and before I release them with the words "OK let's go". Gwylim's brilliant because he does it instinctively, Grisha's still a bit of a work in progress but we're getting there.

"Stay" is their command when we're waiting to cross roads or waiting for a vehicle to pass, or waiting for me to open/close the car doors and when I'm going shopping on my own and I don't want them to follow me out of the front door.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Magyarmum said:


> I use "wait" with both my boys, particularly when we're out walking. If they get too far away from me I'll tell them to "wait" which means they must stand where they are until I catch up with them and before I release them with the words "OK let's go". Gwylim's brilliant because he does it instinctively, Grisha's still a bit of a work in progress but we're getting there.
> 
> "Stay" is their command when we're waiting to cross roads or waiting for a vehicle to pass, or waiting for me to open/close the car doors and when I'm going shopping on my own and I don't want them to follow me out of the front door.


I use 'wait' in the same context that you do; for Tod to stop and wait for me if he's ahead and I want to catch up. Not bothered what position he stops in as long as he does it, and also when I open the car.
For formal stays I just use sit, down or 'hup' which is stand and expect it to be held until I say otherwise.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Linda Weasel said:


> I use 'wait' in the same context that you do; for Tod to stop and wait for me if he's ahead and I want to catch up. Not bothered what position he stops in as long as he does it, and also when I open the car.
> For formal stays I just use sit, down or 'hup' which is stand and expect it to be held until I say otherwise.


This is a "sit and stay" for my two. They won't move until I tell them to.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

The longer I've had dogs, the more I realize long sit and down stays are not a real-world necessity. I'm just not going to leave my dogs somewhere. 
And as I've said with Penny before, I won't put her in the obedience ring until they sort out group stays. No way am I lining her up with labs and GSDs to do a sit stay, it's just not a realistic exercise and it's not worth the risk to her. 

A sit or down while I tie my shoe, or wait for me to throw a ball or switch out toys on the flirt pole, sure. But I'm right there the whole time and it lasts a minute or two tops.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> The longer I've had dogs, the more I realize long sit and down stays are not a real-world necessity. I'm just not going to leave my dogs somewhere.
> And as I've said with Penny before, I won't put her in the obedience ring until they sort out group stays. No way am I lining her up with labs and GSDs to do a sit stay, it's just not a realistic exercise and it's not worth the risk to her.
> 
> A sit or down while I tie my shoe, or wait for me to throw a ball or switch out toys on the flirt pole, sure. But I'm right there the whole time and it lasts a minute or two tops.


I wouldn't dream of leaving my dogs sitting outside a shop. The photo was taken whilst we were training.

Weather and circumstances permitting the boys go everywhere with me and the last thing I need in my life is them freaking out in the city centre by noisy vehicles or at people coming in and out of the supermarket pushing a trolley.. I want my dogs to be able to take most things they'd normally encounter in their stride which is why we do most of our training in busy/built up places.

It's taken a lot of training (and more importantly watching body language) to get them both to the point where I can take them virtually anywhere without worrying about whether or not they'll behave themselves. I'm proud of them.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

I’m getting myself a bit confused and wondering if someone can help.

If I ask for a “heel” daisy will return to my left side and walk to heel. 

If I want her to return to my side and do a sit, i should use a different word say “side”?

Then if I wanted her to return to my side and sit for a while, then walk to heel, would I ask for a “side” then once she is at my side, mark with the word good (good is our word for saying that’s right but you’re not done yet) then ask for a heel and start walking?


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I would do ‘heel’ then ‘sit’ and probably reward randomly, depending on which seems the less confident response, then ‘heel’ when you start walking forward again.

FWIW. I use ‘side’ for walking on my right (useful for lanes with no pavement to keep your dog on your inside away from traffic), and ‘front’ for a recall with sit in front.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> The longer I've had dogs, the more I realize long sit and down stays are not a real-world necessity. I'm just not going to leave my dogs somewhere


For me, they have been.
When I was doing the butterfly transect, (a weekly set route where I'd count and identify butterflies as part of a national scheme to monitor populations) I'd take the dogs, but didn't want them to go round section 5 because there were adders (UK's only venomous snake) on it. Friend's dog died after being bitten by one (elsewhere). So I'd put them in a stay in the bit of shady woodland across the path, go round section 5 and up to 6 (came out further up the path) and pick them up on the way back. It would take about 10-15 minutes. On other hot parts of the walk, I could leave them in a shady spot and explore an open area.
I stopped doing the transect at the end of 2018 when the funding for my travel costs was cut (a local couple took over). I was near the site on Saturday and went for a walk round, and the dogs clearly remembered the route - they waited at the points I'd leave the main path, on the narrow paths where they had to walk behind me so they wouldn't disturb the butterflies before I could count them, they waited for me to go first then fell in behind me; they stopped under the shady bushes where I'd usually put them and stayed whilst I photographed some of the quite rare species that were flying. It was also a sad 'first' - the first time I'd been there since Kite was with me.

Some shops allow dogs in. It's handy to stick them in a down stay out of the way in a corner, whilst I try on boots or whatever. 
A start-line wait is a real help in agility. I can leave the dog near the first jump and get to the other side of the ring before releasing them. I'm not a fast runner, it gives me a good head start.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Burrowzig said:


> Some shops allow dogs in. It's handy to stick them in a down stay out of the way in a corner, whilst I try on boots or whatever.
> A start-line wait is a real help in agility. I can leave the dog near the first jump and get to the other side of the ring before releasing them. I'm not a fast runner, it gives me a good head start.


Oh stays work for a lot of people, yes, I just haven't seen a need for them. I wouldn't do an out of sight stay in public. At home, on our property, sure. But not in public. People are weird.

A start line wait isn't a long stay though, it's less than a minute. 
And in shops, I don't know that I'd call that a 'stay' more like a chill over here  Penny is learning to lay quietly either under the table or in my lap when we go out and can eat outside, but I'm right there the whole time and she can get up and re-position to get more comfortable, change view, etc.

For a fearful dog like her, a down in public is a big ask, it's a very vulnerable position for her. She defaults to running away from perceived danger, and the most I can get her to do comfortable is a sit right now, even in the safety of my lap. She will down in public but I don't want to ask her to do it too much because it worries her and I don't want her to associate worried with 'down'.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jason25 said:


> I'm getting myself a bit confused and wondering if someone can help.
> 
> If I ask for a "heel" daisy will return to my left side and walk to heel.
> 
> ...


I would say heel to get her in heel position (at your side), good girl, then ask for a sit. 
Once you start moving, I'd say heel again and start moving. If she understands heel as a position by your leg she should get it


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> For a fearful dog like her, a down in public is a big ask, it's a very vulnerable position for her


As it was with Ziggy, so I'd never ask it of her if she wasn't at all confident. I'd had her about 8 years before I put her in for the gold good citizen test, which involved an out-of-sight stay for just one minute. Kite got hers at 14 months old.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Burrowzig said:


> As it was with Ziggy, so I'd never ask it of her if she wasn't at all confident. I'd had her about 8 years before I put her in for the gold good citizen test, which involved an out-of-sight stay for just one minute. Kite got hers at 14 months old.


Like so many things, it depends on the dog 

Bates could do an extended down stay wherever, and group stays were a complete non-issue for him even during his arsehole days when he would happily poke holes in other dogs, as long as he had a task to do, he was fine. Even stayed put one time when two other dogs wandered off and thought about getting in to it with each other before the stewards got a hold of them. Bates watched with interest, he was all about joining in with a fight about to happen, but he held his stay...

Penny may be 14 years old before I get her in any competition ring LOL


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

A stay is useful when you’re picking up poo.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

Linda Weasel said:


> I would do 'heel' then 'sit' and probably reward randomly, depending on which seems the less confident response, then 'heel' when you start walking forward again.
> 
> FWIW. I use 'side' for walking on my right (useful for lanes with no pavement to keep your dog on your inside away from traffic), and 'front' for a recall with sit in front.





O2.0 said:


> I would say heel to get her in heel position (at your side), good girl, then ask for a sit.
> Once you start moving, I'd say heel again and start moving. If she understands heel as a position by your leg she should get it


That's brilliant thanks  I'm guilty of only training heel on my left side, not sure if it's because I'm left handed but I find it easier lol.

we best start working on the right :Hilarious


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Jason25 said:


> That's brilliant thanks  I'm guilty of only training heel on my left side, not sure if it's because I'm left handed but I find it easier lol.
> 
> we best start working on the right :Hilarious


I'm left handed but find it's easier to walk my pair on the right.

I stopped training walking to heel when I had Chloe my tiny Tibetan Spaniel because I kept tripping over her, or to be more accurate she kept tripping me up. 

I now walk the boys on the right but slightly ahead of me where I can easily see them.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Jason25 said:


> I'm getting myself a bit confused and wondering if someone can help.
> 
> If I ask for a "heel" daisy will return to my left side and walk to heel.
> 
> ...


Do you mean your want her to walk to heel both on your left side and your right side and also want her to sit both sides?


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

Twiggy said:


> Do you mean your want her to walk to heel both on your left side and your right side and also want her to sit both sides?


Na just on the left side for now


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Jason25 said:


> Na just on the left side for now


In that case what 0.20 said ie "heel" and "sit". Personally I use "close" for left hand heelwork and "side" for right hand and don't use "sit" for halts. That is purely because after the Novice Class our dogs must halt without a command or signal for competitive obedience.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Playing around with Penny's target cue


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

Can I get some advice on what to do next please? 

As most of you know daisy has been nervous of strangers trying to pet her or getting too close to her. I’ve been managing it fine with no issues for a while now but now she seems to be showing an interest in strangers when we are walking.

What she will do is, when walking she will be on my left, as someone is passing on my right she will cut in front of me and go behind them sniffing the air. The only problem with this is some people think it’s her wanting to greet them. I’ve had to say something quickly to them before they try and pet her causing her to react.

I’m not sure how the best way to stop her cutting in front of me, like I can physically stop her by keeping a short leash and letting it go right, but I’m worried about making it her react if that makes any sense.

This only really happens if it’s a close gap between us and the passing person, if it’s quite a big gap she doesn’t pay too much attention and carries on sniffing the ground, has the occasional look at them but doesn’t go towards them sniffing.

Any advice on what to do next?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Jason25 said:


> Can I get some advice on what to do next please?
> 
> As most of you know daisy has been nervous of strangers trying to pet her or getting too close to her. I've been managing it fine with no issues for a while now but now she seems to be showing an interest in strangers when we are walking.
> 
> ...


As this happens in restricted circumstances - passing another person in close proximity - you should be able to anticipate it. 
I'd do one of these things: 1) shorten the lead and use your leg to block her off from cutting in front of you, or 2) put her in a sit and give her a treat. Or a combination 
I have quite strong feeling about dogs cutting in front of the handler. Ziggy did it once when I was running with her, and the damage (to me) ended up with a knee replacement, eight years of pain and restricted mobility in it for the rest of my life. The sit and treat may give Daisy more positive associations with encountering other people, but without the stress of meeting them or having them approach her. If other people see you getting her to do something, they should be less likely to interfere


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Cutting in front is one of the reasons I now teach heel on right as well as left. Spaniel (on my right because no footpath) suddenly decided she was on the wrong side, shot across my legs and I finished upside down in a ditch.

It's just a matter of preference @Jason25 , but I would give a heel command and stick a titbit on Daisy's nose as you approach somebody, and keep walking.
Just because, a) she doesn't expect to get the titbit until she's civilly walked past and b) you're putting distance in place quicker.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jason25 said:


> Can I get some advice on what to do next please?
> 
> As most of you know daisy has been nervous of strangers trying to pet her or getting too close to her. I've been managing it fine with no issues for a while now but now she seems to be showing an interest in strangers when we are walking.
> 
> ...


What you describe - the showing interest by sniffing them as they walk away is a pretty common progression with fearful/shy/unsure dogs. Penny has started doing this too. I don't allow it though. Mostly because her terrier side say "oh check it out" and then her scaredy dog side says "oh shit abort abort" and then her terrier side defaults to aggress first ask questions later enguin It's hard being a Penny. Lots of conflicting drives 

Anyway, yes, very common, a good sign in that she is showing interest, I would acknowledge her interest, "yes, I see them, good girl" then ask her to do something like shove her nose in to your hand while you walk past. 
Sitting is hard for most of the non herderding dogs. Herders are okay with stillness when unsure, they can lie down or sit and be okay with what's happening around them, for the rest of the dog world that's a really big ask because when you're afraid or unsure the last thing you want to do is just sit there and let the scary thing approach. I tend to ask dogs to keep moving but while doing a task because it gives them something to do other than focus on what they're worried about, and it signals to the person passing that you're busy and not up for a say hi to my dog moment.

This is where it's nice to have behaviors like a sustained hand touch or "middle" where the dog is between your feet (you can walk short distances with them 'heeling' between your feet too - practice at home first  And with both of these behaviors you can have a treat in front of the dog's nose too just for some extra encouragement 

Speaking of acknowledging her interest in things she historically hasn't liked, there's an exercise in Control Unleashed called 'look at that' (LAT for short) it's all over youtube, might be worth doing with Daisy also. I've done lots of LAT with Penny and it has really helped her reorient to me in unsure situations.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

Sorry my phone wouldn’t let me on the internet again!! 
Thanks for all the help, I will try to get her to do a touch as we walk past, or maybe stuff a load of hot dog in my hand and then try it lol.
If all fails I’ll do a sit or just get her to walk in between my legs (she’s really good at this) but might get some funny looks :Hilarious

we’ve been training this afternoon, done a lot of sustained nose/hand walking while on leash 

I’ve just got a attachment so I can attach my phone to a tripod and record our training sessions


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> What you describe - the showing interest by sniffing them as they walk away is a pretty common progression with fearful/shy/unsure dogs. Penny has started doing this too. I don't allow it though. Mostly because her terrier side say "oh check it out" and then her scaredy dog side says "oh shit abort abort" and then her terrier side defaults to aggress first ask questions later enguin It's hard being a Penny. Lots of conflicting drives
> 
> Anyway, yes, very common, a good sign in that she is showing interest, I would acknowledge her interest, "yes, I see them, good girl" then ask her to do something like shove her nose in to your hand while you walk past.
> Sitting is hard for most of the non herderding dogs. Herders are okay with stillness when unsure, they can lie down or sit and be okay with what's happening around them, for the rest of the dog world that's a really big ask because when you're afraid or unsure the last thing you want to do is just sit there and let the scary thing approach. I tend to ask dogs to keep moving but while doing a task because it gives them something to do other than focus on what they're worried about, and it signals to the person passing that you're busy and not up for a say hi to my dog moment.
> ...


I'm glad it's a good sign, it shows our work is starting to pay off 

I sometimes forget daisy is a terrier, and what you describe of penny is exactly what I see in her lol.

What controlled unleashed book do you have?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jason25 said:


> and what you describe of penny is exactly what I see in her lol.


Have you had to tuck her under your arm, shove her head in your armpit while she screams like a banshee yet? That's always fun enguin

I have the original Control Unleashed, well had, I lent it out years ago but still have several PDF versions of many of the games from classes I've taken. LAT and reorienting are what I end up doing the most.


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## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Have you had to tuck her under your arm, shove her head in your armpit while she screams like a banshee yet? That's always fun enguin
> 
> I have the original Control Unleashed, well had, I lent it out years ago but still have several PDF versions of many of the games from classes I've taken. LAT and reorienting are what I end up doing the most.


That sounds fun :Hilarious thankfully not yet I haven't  that does remind me of the family jrt though, you would have to block the view in the car window when driving past this particular stretch of grass because the rabbits would be out on it and she would burst in a fit of high pitched barks/screeches :Hilarious

I will see if I can get that one, I have the puppy program one at the moment but I don't have a puppy anymore


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Oh, terriers. Absolutely always been the love of my life, but also the bane.

Never the same from one day to the next.


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## Nicola234 (Nov 10, 2020)

Jason I have this problem with men with Charlie, I can walk by women and he is happy for them to pet him most of the time if they approach but I know he feels uncomfortable with most men so I move him to the other side and talk to him calmly and will offer treats if he will take them, it’s a hit or a miss whether he will, I just try to get a feel how he is feeling. If I notice him getting uncomfortable I will tell the people he is nervous, often getting him tired out and a lot of working his brain will desensitise him a bit on how he is with approaching people. Good luck with Daisy I know how hard it is x


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Rafa said:


> Oh, terriers. Absolutely always been the love of my life, but also the bane.


I absolutely adore terriers but have avoided them until now because I know myself and I find their terrierness far too entertaining to be healthy :Hilarious
OH is not much better....
It's hard to discipline when you're laughing


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> I absolutely adore terriers but have avoided them until now because I know myself and I find their terrierness far too entertaining to be healthy :Hilarious
> OH is not much better....
> It's hard to discipline when you're laughing


You can have my two.

I got woken up at 6 this morning by a loud cacophony of noise. The church bells were ringing and at the same time the boys were howling their heads off,

What a way to start your day!


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