# Proposed cat-ban in NZ: "If your pet-kitty dies, don't get another"



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Could a Cat Ban in New Zealand Save Birds? | LiveScience

Personally, i'd opt for an absolute ban on roaming cats, the requirement that owners install cat-proof fence
or screen-rooms or other No-Contact / No-Straying confinement options, & even a bounty on ferals - 
with intense live-trapping to remove abandoned or free-roaming [owned] pets, & a stiff fine for violators,
plus a mandatory *"3-strikes, the cat gets confiscated"* rule.

If owners knew their kitty would be re-homed if s/he was caught roaming 3x during their ownership, 
i think they'd be very compliant... at least, most would.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)




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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Fair enough, but you seem to be a bit of a cat hater. Two threads calling for feral culling etc.......
Does the dog in your avatar have a bird in its mouth?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

koekemakranka said:


> ...you seem to be a bit of a cat hater.


wrong; i hate FREE-ROAMING cats, very specifically.

i grew-up with cats, my da bred apple-head Siamese, my first personal pet was a Maltese,
& i've had many cats in my lifetime - all of them once i reached adulthood, INDOORS or confined.

i couldn't convince my parents, in particular my mother, to desex our farm-cats & bring them indoors - 
she didn't even like the Siamese, she only tolerated them.


koekemakranka said:


> Does the dog in your avatar have a bird in its mouth?


:lol: 
the Flab-Lab who's my avatar has a BALL in his mouth - a ratty, tatty, much-loved ball he adores.

he's not my dog - i loved his utter absorption in his toy & playing with his person at the beach.
he was oblivious to any other creature or object; for him, they were alone with his toy & the surf. :yesnod:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

"If your pet-kitty dies, don't get another" came from the New Zealander who spurred 
the legislation; it's not my own statement, it was his, as quoted by the NZ press.

He was suggesting not that U rush to the vet's office & euth Ur pet-cat, but that once they died,
U not replace that cat with another - it's one way of reducing NZ pet-cat numbers, but unlikely to be 
popular with cat-lovers, & i think requiring them to confine their pet is far-less draconian & might 
actually work - assuming that cat-owners actually abide by the requirement to confine their pets to 
their own property, & protect NZ-wildlife from their cats with cat-proof fences to keep cats IN,
& screened areas to keep wildlife OUT, away from the cat.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Are you also in favour of banning dogs off leashes in public? I suppose from your user name you are. 

Cats and dogs should be either confined indoors or in cages/runs, or leashed at all times in public places. 

Sound ok?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CoCoTrio said:


> Are you also in favour of banning dogs off leashes in public?


dogs roaming at large, unsupervised, YES - that's irresponsible.

Dogs off-leash with their owners or handlers, who are biddable & responsive?
Of course not.

Dogs who are aggressive, uncontrollable, predatory, or just plain rude don't belong off-leash, either.

Clueless owners who let their rude dogs leap all over a strange dog & then get affronted when the invaded dog
snarls at their darling, announcing, _"S/he only wants to *play*!"_ & snatching their beloved to stalk off 
in high dudgeon, are a major factor in creating dog-fights; if they'd keep their social-klutz on a leash or long-line, 
s/he wouldn't be slapping forepaws on the shoulders of a dog who'd never even seen that dog before, 
& who doesn't appreciate the invasive attention. :nonod:


CoCoTrio said:


> I suppose from your user name you are.


other ppl before U have made the same mistake, construing the dog as the 'leashed' party. 

i'm referring to =myself= as the one who's leashed - willingly & cheerfully - to a dog, or for that matter,
to a horse, a bird, my herps, & any other animals who enter my life. The leash may be literal,
or metaphorical - i'm talking about belonging to an animal as much as ever that animal can be said to "belong"
to me: we own each other, in the sense of recognize, tend, defend & befriend each other.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i've taught many cats to walk on leash [not that U've asked], altho never to heel.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Dogs off-leash with their owners or handlers, who are biddable & responsive?
> Of course not.,


and who would decide at what level an unleashed dog qualifies as 'biddable and responsive'? The owner themselves? Or a government department who might be paid to run behavioural tests on each and every dog?

If every dog were tested by behavioural specialists (annually perhaps) there'd be some dogs licensed to be off the leash in public and the rest who would not be licensed. Is that the idea?

Differentiating between licensed and unlicensed dogs would be a challenge. Maybe dog wardens could be deployed to detain unlicensed dogs, at the same time as they chase and capture all the cats.

It sounds expensive, and not a little barmy.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CoCoTrio said:


> and who would decide at what level an unleashed dog qualifies as 'biddable and responsive'?
> The owner themselves? Or a government dept... to run behavioural tests on each and every dog?


Simple Q - 
can U call Ur dog & be relatively confident s/he will come to U? Good.
OTOH, if Ur dog responds less than 70% of the time, U need to improve that recall.

easiest test: Dunbar's 5 cue - 
cue the dog ONCE 5 separate times; 4 correct responses on single cues = 80% success.
3 of 5 = 60%, & so on.

=======================

The above are "owner-rated" estimates of their own dog's biddability.
How about training certificates, where others rate the dog's compliance?

has Ur dog gone thru a KC training-class? If so, a certificate is issued - right? 
Bronze for basic, silver for intermediate, gold for advanced behaviors?

in the USA, the AKC has a 10-part test, the Canine Good Citizen, which asks the dog to display manners
that would be expected in public: come when called, walk past other ppl & dogs, allow the handler to chat
with another person w/o jumping on them or barking at / fleeing from them, etc.

the CGC also issues a certificate - it's a PASS / DON'T PASS, U can work on any segment that needs improvement
& come back to try again. Some landlords use the CGC as their filter for responsible owners [they train, 
they expect polite behavior of their dog, etc] & socially-apropos dogs. :thumbsup:

neither of these programs involves complex Govt-dept testing, major fees, etc.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

OK, so the AKC or the CGC or whoever issues a certificate to entitle a certain dog to be legally allowed off the leash in public. And all dogs without such certification would need to be leashed at all times when in public. Is that right? 

But some regulatory body would be required to oversee the issuing of these certificate/licenses. It would involve some expense but that could be paid for by the dog owners, presumably via a fee for the licence. 

Much like a driver's licence. And like driver licensing it would be a legal issue. 

The legality is the important bit. If the legal right to be unleashed in public depends on statutory testing you can be sure that the testing and the issuing of licences would have to be closely monitored by responsible authorities. Where the law is involved, the government is involved, by definition. It would be expensive, of course.

And I still wonder how unlicensed off-leash dogs could possibly be recognised on the street. Or would all dogs get the benefit of the doubt unless and until they misbehave?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CoCoTrio said:


> ...so the AKC or the CGC or whoever issues a certificate to entitle a certain dog to be legally allowed off the leash
> in public. And all dogs without such certification would need to be leashed at all times when in public. Is that right?


YOU said that - not i.

YOU asked which dogs are 'biddable & responsive'? - I gave examples of the *OWNER deciding if their own dog
is sufficiently proofed for off-leash time, outside a fence*. There are others - i mentioned 2, the reliability 
of recall & the 5-cue test for % compliance [on each cue, individually, per Dunbar].

I ALSO gave examples of the Brit & US kennel-clubs' versions of certificates earned in classes [Brit]
or via a pass/fail test [USA] --- & YOU choose to paint these as the only-recognized option? Again, i didn't say that.

YOU are choosing which of my statements to throw darts at - see ya. :thumbdown: 
i don't care to waste time with someone who manipulates my posts. Ta.


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## CoCoTrio (Jan 3, 2013)

Oh dear. I thought we were having a debate about the unfeasibility of your proposal to differentiate in law between which pets should be permanently confined, and which not.

You started this thread by suggesting that you would approve plans for compulsory and permanent confinement of all cats by law. I was merely hoping that in fairness you would see the equivalence of compulsory and permanent confinement by law of at least some dogs, and the difficulties of applying such a law.

You think you're wasting time with someone who 'manipulates' your posts? My friend, manipulation of the other party's opinions and proposals is the essence of debate. It's the normal way we seek to persuade others of a contrary point of view, and to reveal the inconsistencies of a flawed argument. 

You give the impression of being uncomfortable with this.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

for those who don't reside in the USA, leash-laws requiring that ALL dogs [with specific exceptions] be leashed
when off the owner's property, are very common; most towns, cities, townships & counties have leash-laws.

There are specific areas where dogs may be off-leash; obviously dog-parks & other safely-fenced areas, 
but also some beaches, parks or subsections of public-parks, & so on.

the dogs **excepted** from the leash-laws may include:

- cop-k9s & other military or police dogs while working under handler control

- a service-dog who must be off-leash to perform their task - if the leash is not an impediment, the SD must be
leashed like anyone else;

- Hunting dogs during the season, UNDER handler-control & direction; not merely running game, chasing 
livestock, or trespassing on public or private lands.

- SAR dogs who are engaged in an active search or training-scenario, again under handler direction...

and similar circumstances.

Most pet-dogs in the USA live in areas [urban or suburban or even rural] which require leashes when off 
the owner's property; if U are on a sidewalk, a dirt-road, a street, the dog is almost-invariably supposed 
to be leashed.


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Not sure what to make of this thread title, don't replace your cat I presume that house cats would be allowed. Much as I don't like roaming pet cats killing wildlife I am not keen on the idea of house cats. I know many indoor cats are happy, have loads of space and even cat proof gardens but to me it's not the same. It'd be like having a dog and not taking it out anywhere just excercising it at home. Now I am going to run and hide before I get ranted at


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Hmm. On my way home today I saw a most beautiful tabby fluffball twisted and dead on the pavement. I am not going to rant but there are pros and cons to free ranging.


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

That is a horrible sight, I agree, there are many dangers, cars, dogs, people, but I'm still not convinced, maybe if I had a kitten and kept it as an indoor then I would feel differently.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

delca1 said:


> Not sure what to make of this thread title...


it has to do with the * link * in the OP: 
Could a Cat Ban in New Zealand Save Birds? | LiveScience

a proposed bill to ban importing cats to NZ, & the author? / originator? / instigator? of the legislation, 
is the person a news-columnist quoted as saying, basically, "if U have a pet-cat & that cat dies, don't get 
another cat". He is suggesting that the feline-popn die out due to attrition, over the next decade or so, 
as owned-cats age & die, & none are imported or bred in NZ.

That's where the subject came from: a NZ-bill to ban importing or breeding cats, to save NZ-wildlife,
who are being severely impacted by cat-predation. Many are unique to NZ, & are endangered or threatened.

Please read the article at the link for the full story.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> wrong; i hate FREE-ROAMING cats, very specifically.


As do I, and while my indoor cats don't mind visitors there are others who get very stressed, redirected aggression or start spraying because of wandering cats in their yard.

I can't agree on not allowing cats at all in NZ, but keeping them indoors, only going out on harness or an enclosure is more sensible that letting them die out.

Over here a lot of councils have curfews, cats must be kept in overnight between certain hours. Perhaps one day there will be wandering laws 24 hours, just as there are for dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

spotty cats said:


> ...while my indoor cats don't mind visitors, ...others... get very stressed, redirect aggro or start spraying
> because of wandering cats in their yard.


i was living in a Norfolk neighborhood with a huge free-roaming cat-popn, both owned & unowned, 
many abandoned pets of ppl who'd callously moved & simply left cats behind to fend for themselves;
it was a major hassle.

i was awakened almost year-round by early-morning or late-night cat fights, screaming, screeching, 
caterwauling & snarling; my 2nd-floor DOOR was sprayed by a tom, despite being set back with a balcony,
& a locked door at the stair-head --- he jumped from the staircase over the 3-ft tall balcony railing to reach
my door, & for over a YEAR, every time i opened the storm-door, the stink of cat-piss hit my nose...
:incazzato:

cats were breeding in the street, giving birth in trashcans & under buildings, killing migrating songbirds
in both spring & fall - we were a 1/4-mile from the southern shore of the Chesapeake, so hungry, 
thirsty, exhausted birds arriving in small family-groups or massive flocks were common; it was insane.

ONE cat - my downstairs neighbor's tuxedo-tom, who was the bugger that sprayed my door! --- killed a *minimum
of 12 adult-birds in one 30-day period, because i was the person who picked up carcasses, heads, wings,
gut-piles, contour feathers, & tails he left lying about.*  Did i hate the cat? no; was i pissed off at him?
Damned sure, i was! Did i despise his jerk-owner?... U betcha. She was an immature, irresponsible twit,
IMO, & i won't apologize for saying it, either.

her cat got into the next-door neighbor's car & SPRAYED THE UPHOLSTERY - the car stank so badly, 
in November they were still driving around with the windows open, freezing in the 35-mph draft. 

With the number of cats in the neighborhood, our prospective garden died aborning; so many cats dug
among the seeds, there were plants that died cuz they were buried too deep, others sprouted & croaked cuz
their roots were exposed to sun / heat thru shallow soil, & many that didn't produce cuz they were jammed
into a tiny area by the cats digging & shoving the pile to one side - with all the seeds crammed into it.

We "grew" more cat-sh*t than any other produce, despite planting a half-dozen sorts of lettuce & greens,
squash, radish, cukes, zucchini, & tomatoes. Bleccchhh.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i've taught many cats to walk on leash [not that U've asked], altho never to heel.


Yes, it is possible. As you can see from my avatar, my boy has a daily walk on harness, which he enjoys. My two girls do not want to leave the house and garden. My cats are not free-roaming at all. I would like to see all cats confined to their homes and gardens, but I don't see that being standard practice in my lifetime.


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## TomPeters (Mar 15, 2013)

Mine loves to be out and about. We keep an eye on her but she never bothers the neighbours or other animals. I would not take on a cat if it had to be house-bound. OK, so if a sick cat needed a house-bound life and I felt I could offer that, I would, but I wouldn't lock up a healthy cat. Having said that, my cats have always had full injections and boosters and I worm regularly.


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