# John Rogerson or Cesar Millan



## auntiekatie (Aug 12, 2011)

Hi,

I was keen on Cesar's style of training, but recently became keen on John's style. Any thoughts on these two trainers?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

auntiekatie said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was keen on Cesar's style of training, but recently became keen on John's style. Any thoughts on these two trainers?


Known John for years both as a competitor, judge and trainer. Recently attended one of his courses.

There is really no comparison.

JR is in a totally different class to CM.

I would not go and see CM if you paid me.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Agree with Smokeybear, John Rogerson all the way.


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

John Rogerson for me too


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Im scared


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## auntiekatie (Aug 12, 2011)

Thank you for your responses. If only JR had a TV show like CM.

Are his courses hands-on?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

auntiekatie said:


> Thank you for your responses. If only JR had a TV show like CM.
> 
> Are his courses hands-on?


Very, here is a list for 2013

http://johnrogerson.com/2013coursesschedule.pdf

I am on his CSI course in September, it is fully booked (handlers) I believe there may be a spectator place available.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

There's not enough dog training programmes on TV considering the amount of people who own them. The ones that are are never on BBC or ITV but random Sky channels. VS has some sometimes but I think they should be on regular channels because not everyone has Sky and it mat help people raise dogs better and be more responsible owners. Depending on who they're watching and their own level of sense!

Have to say I've never heard of John Rogerson - is he on TV at all?


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

I did nearly all my training with John - most of his courses are not hands on, and the ones that are, there is still a lot of theory. I felt I still needed to train with other people to get experience training classes and handling dogs. I think he now does a couple with owners and their dogs, but they are always at a time I can't take time off sadly. 

John has been talking about getting a TV show for at least two years (that's when I first heard him mention it), but nothing has happened yet that I know of. The website is still password protected so I guess not open yet!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Have to say I've never heard of John Rogerson - is he on TV at all?


No he is not on TV he has written several books. I am not sure he is TV material and at the moment is suffering with his hip.

John is a very "real life" trainer and on one of his courses everyone gets a dog from a shelter to use and to traing to pass the KCGDS Bronze scheme.

He thinks outside the box and although having competed and judged at the top level in WT is conscious of what real dog owners want and need.

If you ever get a chance to attend even as a spectator (the last course I was on I spectated but spent a lot of time helping) then go, he is a mine of information.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I have never heard of John Rogerson and the other one is not a dog trainer. He is a tv personality who likes to abuse dogs to make himself look important.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I have never heard of John Rogerson and the other one is not a dog trainer. He is a tv personality who likes to abuse dogs to make himself look important.


John himself makes a joke where he says he's introduced as 'world renowned dog trainer John Rogerson' and everyone says 'who??'


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

John Rogerson every time, although I don't agree with absolutely everything he does, he doesn't use physical force like CM does which is a start. A trainer friend of mine e-mailed John recently regarding a technique for recall in his book and whether he thinks it is aversive or not, I was not pleased with JR's reply which boiled down to 'who cares how it works if it gets the results'. Shan't be purchasing any more of his books if that's his outlook.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

BoredomBusters said:


> John himself makes a joke where he says he's introduced as 'world renowned dog trainer John Rogerson' and everyone says 'who??'


True, I asked on a trainers group about opinions and not a single person knew who he was.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

John Rogerson! I attended his recall course in Oct & it was fantastic, so interesting & really did give me such a lot to think about. 

I had a fantastic few days & am now booked on to the CSI course in Sept which I am really looking forward to


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> True, I asked on a trainers group about opinions and not a single person knew who he was.


Well I am not sure who those trainers are/were but *all *the top trainers in the UK know John very well either by reputation or in person as do many from around the world.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Well I am not sure who those trainers are/were but *all *the top trainers in the UK know John very well either by reputation or in person as do many from around the world.


None of the positive US trainers I know have ever owned up to knowing his name in the slightest. So either they're lying or he's not as well known as he thinks, as BB has already said.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I'm not saying a word.*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm not saying a word.*


Glad to hear it


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> None of the positive US trainers I know have ever owned up to knowing his name in the slightest. So either they're lying or he's not as well known as he thinks, as BB has already said.


Terry Ryan knows him well she has been on his courses in the UK and he has been over to the US with her. Sue Sternberg definitely knows him I am sure there are plenty more, John no longer goes to the US for various reasons....


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Terry Ryan knows him well she has been on his courses in the UK and he has been over to the US with her. Sue Sternberg definitely knows him I am sure there are plenty more, John no longer goes to the US for various reasons....


I'm sure people do know him, but he's not one of the best known trainers worldwide from what I can tell by the responses I've had from people. I know you love his methods and are very fond of him, so I'm not personally attacking him, he's just not as famous as he says.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> None of the positive US trainers I know have ever owned up to knowing his name in the slightest. So either they're lying or he's not as well known as he thinks, as BB has already said.


There are plenty of positive US trainers who know who John Rogerson is. I first heard of him on a US forum.

Can't say I agree with absolutely everything he says but I think I could probably say the same about every trainer going.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> There are plenty of positive US trainers who know who John Rogerson is. I first heard of him on a US forum.
> 
> Can't say I agree with absolutely everything he says but I think I could probably say the same about every trainer going.


There are also plenty that don't. I can certainly get you screenshots of the array of people saying 'nope, don't have a clue who he is' when I get home if it satisfies your argument.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I'm sure people do know him, but he's not one of the best known trainers worldwide from what I can tell by the responses I've had from people. I know you love his methods and are very fond of him, so I'm not personally attacking him, he's just not as famous as he says.


I am not a JR groupie, I admire many trainers and behaviourists, I am not sure that it is HE who has the monopoly on saying how famous he is!  Neither do I love ALL his methods.  I can pick the wheat from the chaff. 

The original question was regarding JR v CM, for me there is no contest.

That does not mean I think JR is the best in the world, I do not give anyone that title, there is a large group at the top of the tree some of whom are largely unknown outside a particular sphere or country.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> There are also plenty that don't. I can certainly get you screenshots of the array of people saying 'nope, don't have a clue who he is' when I get home if it satisfies your argument.


 What argument? I simply said that there were plenty of US trainers who've heard of him. I never said that you were lying. There are trainers who've never heard of Jean Donaldson or Ian Dunbar too believe it or not.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> There are also plenty that don't. I can certainly get you screenshots of the array of people saying 'nope, don't have a clue who he is' when I get home if it satisfies your argument.


I am sure there are lots of US trainers who are unaware of his existence, do they include those who are equally world famous (or not) as John?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> I am sure there are lots of US trainers who are unaware of his existence, do they include those who are equally world famous (or not) as John?


Is that relevant? Or does one have to be world famous to know of 'world famous' trainers? One would think if he is so well respected and well known the majority of trainers would know his training methods and books. Or perhaps the positive trainers I know don't care for his methods so haven't bothered investigating them.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> I am not a JR groupie, I admire many trainers and behaviourists, I am not sure that it is HE who has the monopoly on saying how famous he is!  Neither do I love ALL his methods.  I can pick the wheat from the chaff.
> 
> The original question was regarding JR v CM, for me there is no contest.
> 
> That does not mean I think JR is the best in the world, I do not give anyone that title, there is a large group at the top of the tree some of whom are largely unknown outside a particular sphere or country.


I also think JR over CM any day, I think he has some great ideas about training, but as with all trainers you can't agree 100% with everything they do.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Neither. I train how I want to train - which is a mixture of (a) what I`ve found to work and (b) what I`ve picked up from various people over the years. 
Why do you need some bloke to tell you what to do? Dog training is not that hard.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Neither. I train how I want to train - which is a mixture of (a) what I`ve found to work and (b) what I`ve picked up from various people over the years.
> Why do you need some bloke to tell you what to do? Dog training is not that hard.


I couldn't agree more. I use my own methods, not really learned from anyone except experience and knowing my own dog.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I couldn't agree more. I use my own methods, *not really learned from anyone *except experience and knowing my own dog.


I hope I *never *have to say I have not really learned from anyone. I learn all the time, I thought one of the reason for a forum such as this was to learn?

I have learned a lot and continue to learn from great teachers, trainers, behaviourists and dogs.

But then I am peculiar like that 

If dog training is not that hard I often wonder why many post about the difficulties they are having with their dogs............?

Funny that isn't it?


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2012)

I have heard John Rogerson mentioned on several occasions by US trainers. I'm not familiar with him, but I've heard his name mentioned more than once in articles written by PR trainers in the US. 

Even not being familiar with JR, I would have to go with him instead of CM as the former has actually accomplished something with his dogs in the way of training. Even if I didn't agree with the methods, I could still learn. 

Last video of CM I saw, his dog Junior who he's had since puppyhood, who he claims as a service dog, doesn't even have a cue for sit. How he can profess to be a dog guru and not even know how to get his own dog to sit is pretty laughable really. Yet here he is telling everyone else how they should manage their dogs.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> I hope I *never *have to say I have not really learned from anyone. I learn all the time, I thought one of the reason for a forum such as this was to learn?
> 
> I have learned a lot and continue to learn from great teachers, trainers, behaviourists and dogs.
> 
> ...


Completely agree with this!

It may be common sense or 'not that hard' for experienced owners but when I first bought Roxy home & her problems became more evident every day then I really was completely out of my depth being a new & inexpereinced dog owner. Had it not been for doing alot of research & working with people to help her (& me) then I would not have been able to keep her.

From visiting trainers & behaviourists, attending various classes, courses & trying new activities, reading books, articles etc I have learnt such a lot & continue to do. Hopefully I will continue to do so & become a better dog owner for it


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## Arctic wolf (Dec 9, 2012)

Cesar Millan is definatly the right trainer. I trained my dogs by his rules and i couldnt be happier. Cesar Millan is all about calm-assertive energy. Watch his videos on youtube and he never fails


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Arctic wolf said:


> Cesar Millan is definatly the right trainer. I trained my dogs by his rules and i couldnt be happier. Cesar Millan is all about calm-assertive energy. Watch his videos on youtube and he never fails


Funny isn't it that there is world wide condemnation of CM?

Very strange that top behaviourists and trainers do not support him?

They must all be wrong........................

BEYOND CESAR MILLAN - Home

Well I am afraid he DOES fail and has done spectacularly on film, have you not seen his stupidity with Holly the labrador resource guarding?

That is on Youtube........


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Arctic wolf said:


> Cesar Millan is definatly the right trainer. I trained my dogs by his rules and i couldnt be happier. Cesar Millan is all about calm-assertive energy. Watch his videos on youtube and he never fails


Oh dear.

He's not a dog trainer. Your post goes downhill from there.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Arctic wolf said:


> Cesar Millan is definatly the right trainer. I trained my dogs by his rules and i couldnt be happier. Cesar Millan is all about calm-assertive energy. Watch his videos on youtube and he never fails


We have. What he has convinced you is calm submissive is in fact a dog shut down in sheer terror.

If he is such a great dog trainer, how come he got bitten recently by a food guarding labrador, who any half experienced dog owner could have sorted out with no drama whatsoever.

The only thing I have never seen him fail at is terrifying the dogs. If you wish to extol the virtues of the Dog Abuser, you have come to the wrong place.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Completely agree with this!
> 
> It may be common sense or 'not that hard' for experienced owners but when I first bought Roxy home & her problems became more evident every day then I really was completely out of my depth being a new & inexpereinced dog owner. Had it not been for doing alot of research & working with people to help her (& me) then I would not have been able to keep her.
> 
> From visiting trainers & behaviourists, attending various classes, courses & trying new activities, reading books, articles etc I have learnt such a lot & continue to do. Hopefully I will continue to do so & become a better dog owner for it


But I have never had a problem dog like you. I don't think anyone could have done a better job with Roxy, and I have never had to try. By saying I haven't learned from anybody, I am talking about puppies from 8 weeks or thereabouts and Diva who was a show dog, not a rescue dog who has been shoved around all over the place, is dog reactive, and very insecure.

Dogs are not born with problems, they are created for them. If you know dogs then you do not need to have a puppy end up with problems.

You have done a brilliant job with Roxy and obviously you have taken the right advice, but that is not the same as bringing up a dog from scratch.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Dogs are not born with problems, they are created for them. If you know dogs then you do not need to have a puppy end up with problems.


I think this is interesting as it errs on the side of nurture as opposed to nature. I think in certain breeds or certain dogs problems are not created but they are there by nature (same sex aggression, dislike of sexually mature or intact dogs etc).


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> I think this is interesting as it errs on the side of nurture as opposed to nature. I think in certain breeds or certain dogs problems are not created but they are there by nature (same sex aggression, dislike of sexually mature or intact dogs etc).


Yes, but if you know dogs and buying a puppy, you would surely choose to research all those traits in different breeds and work with them? Or choose a breed you can cope with. Problems arise when people don't realise their own puppy's traits and do nothing to overcome them.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> .
> 
> Dogs are not born with problems, they are created for them. If you know dogs then you do not need to have a puppy end up with problems.


This demonstrates what a lot you have to learn, dogs, like people and all other animals ARE born with problems quite often.

But if you had read, listened, watched and researched you would have learned about this. 

Epigenetics will teach you that your statement is not entirely true.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Yes, but if you know dogs and buying a puppy, you would surely choose to research all those traits in different breeds and work with them? Or choose a breed you can cope with. Problems arise when people don't realise their own puppy's traits and do nothing to overcome them.


I am afraid that not all problems can be cured, medicated or mitigated, something else you learn when you have studied and experienced working with a huge number of dogs over a more than two decades.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Yes, but if you know dogs and buying a puppy, you would surely choose to research all those traits in different breeds and work with them? Or choose a breed you can cope with. Problems arise when people don't realise their own puppy's traits and do nothing to overcome them.


I don't personally believe all natural traits can be overcome. The best in the Doberman world advise against two of the same sex etc., they are perfectly qualified to handle these dogs but know that nature cannot be changed and therefore dogs should not really be with dogs and bitches with bitches etc. You can avoid the problem sure, but if you're out and about with your dog and it is same sex aggressive then this can be a problem that means you adjust your entire schedule around avoiding other dogs and it's not something that can be 'fixed' imo.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> I don't personally believe all natural traits can be overcome. The best in the Doberman world advise against two of the same sex etc., they are perfectly qualified to handle these dogs but know that nature cannot be changed and therefore dogs should not really be with dogs and bitches with bitches etc. You can avoid the problem sure, but if you're out and about with your dog and it is same sex aggressive then this can be a problem that means you adjust your entire schedule around avoiding other dogs and it's not something that can be 'fixed' imo.


And I would assume that someone taking on such a breed would be happy to deal with it and manage situations. I mean if I had a dobe and I took him out I would be expecting possibly a problem. I might even ask the other owner if their dog is entire or whatever. I personally wouldn't have a dog that would likely be a problem like that.

I chose my breed very carefully, especially being as they are so big.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I don't personally believe all natural traits can be overcome. The best in the Doberman world advise against two of the same sex etc., they are perfectly qualified to handle these dogs but know that nature cannot be changed and therefore dogs should not really be with dogs and bitches with bitches etc. You can avoid the problem sure, but if you're out and about with your dog and it is same sex aggressive then this can be a problem that means you adjust your entire schedule around avoiding other dogs and it's not something that can be 'fixed' imo.


You cannot train out the natural _instincts _of animals, for example you cannot train out the instinct to sniff from scent hounds, it is impossible as it is a genetic/instinctive trait which has been specifically bred for.

Not keeping two dogs of the same sex together is not about "_natural trait_" that is a management issue.

Plenty of people keep two Dobermanns of the same sex together, in fact I can think of 6 off the top of my head and I am not even a Dobe specialist.

Not seen anything in the Dobermann Breed standard to say that they are same sex aggressive, has that been written in recently?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> And I would assume that someone taking on such a breed would be happy to deal with it and manage situations. I mean if I had a dobe and I took him out I would be expecting possibly a problem. I might even ask the other owner if their dog is entire or whatever. I personally wouldn't have a dog that would likely be a problem like that.
> 
> I chose my breed very carefully, especially being as they are so big.


Indeed, newfies seem very placid and problem free from what I can tell, very lovely dogs.  But I think if you had a more challenging breed perhaps you might think that problems can be nature rather than nurture. It's probably easy to think that it's all down to how you bring them up unless you've encountered a breed specific 'bad' trait. Not all breeds are as easy as others, some are easily fixed and some can never be fixed.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> You cannot train out the natural _instincts _of animals, for example you cannot train out the instinct to sniff from scent hounds, it is impossible as it is a genetic/instinctive trait which has been specifically bred for.
> 
> Not keeping two dogs of the same sex together is not about "_natural trait_" that is a management issue.
> 
> ...


I've seen a lot of dobe breeders recommending not keeping two of the same sex incase they are SSA. Of course you can 'manage' the situation, but if they are SSA then it is a 'problem' regardless of management.
A quick google brings up the following staright away:

http://www.gentledoberman.com/forum...behavioral-problems/my-two-male-dogs-fighting

http://www.dobermantalk.com/puppy-corner/35620-advice-wanted-about-same-sex-aggression-females.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...168774-breeds-known-dog-dog-aggression-2.html

http://www.dpca.org/BreedEd/index.php/articles/43-miscellaneous/362-buying-a-doberman-pinscher

'Responsible breeders don't sell male Doberman puppies to homes that already have male dogs. Mature Doberman males are often same sex aggressive. While neutering may curb this problem, it doesn't always. A common reason that male Dobermans are turned into rescues around the age of 18-24 months is that they no longer tolerate sharing their living space with another male dog, and the owners were never advised this might be an issue.'

Etc


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I've seen a lot of dobe breeders recommending not keeping two of the same sex incase they are SSA. Of course you can 'manage' the situation, but if they are SSA then it is a 'problem' regardless of management.


So Dobermanns are bred to be SSA?  

First I have heard of this.

I have been a lot of events where Dobes have been including IPO, Working Trials and Championship Shows and never seen ANY such evidence nor heard that this is the case from several well known and successful breeders in the UK!

Hmm the above are all forums, which breeders of which affix actively state that their breed is SSA?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> *So Dobermanns are bred to be SSA?  *First I have heard of this.
> 
> I have been a lot of events where Dobes have been including IPO, Working Trials and Championship Shows and never seen ANY such evidence nor heard that this is the case from several well known and successful breeders in the UK!


Which part of my post led you to believe that's what I said?  I said dobes are known to be SSA just like mals and many other breeds.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I have just whizzed through several Dobermann club sites and several breeder sites.

Nowhere is it mentioned that Dobermanns are same sex aggressive and you should not have two or more males or females together..............


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> I have just whizzed through several Dobermann club sites and several breeder sites.
> 
> Nowhere is it mentioned that Dobermanns are same sex aggressive and you should not have two or more males or females together..............


I suppose the Doberman Pinscher Club of America is not a Doberman club site enough for you?

(Already posted but) Buying A Doberman Pinscher

'*Responsible breeders don't sell male Doberman puppies to homes that already have male dogs. Mature Doberman males are often same sex aggressive. While neutering may curb this problem, it doesn't always. A common reason that male Dobermans are turned into rescues around the age of 18-24 months is that they no longer tolerate sharing their living space with another male dog, and the owners were never advised this might be an issue.'


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Indeed, newfies seem very placid and problem free from what I can tell, very lovely dogs.  But I think if you had a more challenging breed perhaps you might think that problems can be nature rather than nurture. It's probably easy to think that it's all down to how you bring them up unless you've encountered a breed specific 'bad' trait. Not all breeds are as easy as others, some are easily fixed and some can never be fixed.


I think that problems are a bit of each quite frankly, no matter what the breed. Newfies are very placid and friendly and want to please, but if you were to try a cesar millan approach to training them, you could find yourself with a very aggressive giant breed on your hands.

They are a very stubborn breed and they are a very independent breed. They need to be convinced that there is a reason to do something, no way will you force them to do it.

I know what sort of dog will fit into my household and my family, which is why I chose newfies and why I previously had a golden retriever. I would love a gsd but I know he would not fit with my family.



Phoolf said:


> Which part of my post led you to believe that's what I said?  I said dobes are known to be SSA just like mals and many other breeds.


I knew what you meant.


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## auntiekatie (Aug 12, 2011)

The thread seems to have taken a new direction.

Anyway, thanks for those that expressed thoughts about JR.

Bye for now.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2012)

Arctic wolf said:


> Cesar Millan is definatly the right trainer. I trained my dogs by his rules and i couldnt be happier. Cesar Millan is all about calm-assertive energy. Watch his videos on youtube and he never fails


 May I ask what rules of his you used to train your dog to do anything? None of his rules teach the dog cues for behaviors. You can't use "energy" to get a dog to sit on cue, or come on cue, or stay when told.
I've never seen CM manage to teach any of that let alone explain it in his books.

As for SSA in some breeds, eh... IDK...
I think more than anything it boils down to how well you're able to manage a mutli-dog household. 
Many dogs of the working group become more intolerant of other dogs as they reach maturity, but intolerance can be trained and managed. Its not like asking a herding dog to not want to herd sheep.

I would venture to guess that the reason breeders and breed clubs advise against keeping same sex pairings is because your average pet home just isn't prepared to deal with squabbles, nor do most folks know how to de-escalate this sort of thing.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I would venture to guess that the reason breeders and breed clubs advise against keeping same sex pairings is because your average pet home just isn't prepared to deal with squabbles, nor do most folks know how to de-escalate this sort of thing.


Precisely in fact if you look at *most *breeds people say exactly the same thing, nothing to do with particular breeds being SSA per se as of course that would be pointless when the vast majority of dogs go to pet homes, many of which are very inexperienced.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Getting back to the JR or CM debate, i'd opt for JR.

I think he's a very approachable trainer and although I dont agree with everything he says, he has some interesting thoughts on matters.

I went on his CSI course this year, will be going on it again next year and I also have one of his books. But then again, i've seen Cesar Milan live and have one of his books so I guess that means nothing!


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