# Bitch Pregnant?



## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

How to use this.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Are you saying your dog hasn't eaten for a week? I can assure you that this has nothing to do with the pregnancy. You need to see a vet urgently - something is wrong!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm afraid there aren't really any certain indications of pregnancy.

Increase/decrease in appetite, swollen nipples, clingy behaviour, etc., can all be signs of a phantom pregnancy.

Was the night they mated the first time you had noticed any blood? Did you notice if your bitch's vulva was swollen?

If she had only just begun bleeding, the chances are she was at the beginning of her season and she may well not have conceived.

He didn't mate her again, did he?


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

She eats little amounts out of my hand. That is it really. 

Yes her vulva was swollen on inspection afterwards but because I was not expecting this I didn't look for it happening. My male showed no interest in her either leading up to this, not infront of me anyway, whether they mated more than the once is un sure as I only witnessed the one. My house is covered in dark flooring, so it's really hard to see. I only noticed it that night whilst cleaning, it was dried up at this point. 

I am worried about her just wondered if it was normal for her to lose her appetite like this if she is pregnant.


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

I might add that they were separated to different parts of the house after I witnessed them for the first time.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

sam1992ok said:


> She eats little amounts out of my hand. That is it really.
> 
> Yes her vulva was swollen on inspection afterwards but because I was not expecting this I didn't look for it happening. My male showed no interest in her either leading up to this, not infront of me anyway, whether they mated more than the once is un sure as I only witnessed the one. My house is covered in dark flooring, so it's really hard to see. I only noticed it that night whilst cleaning, it was dried up at this point.
> 
> I am worried about her just wondered if it was normal for her to lose her appetite like this if she is pregnant.


Some pregnant bitches do lose their appetite. As the uterus expands, it can compress the stomach and some bitches will even vomit.

I would try something like roast chicken, with some pasta or rice. Put it down for her at her normal feed time, give her twenty minutes and then remove it. Obviously, if she is pregnant, she can't carry on not eating for long, so I do think you need the advice of your vet.

You will also need to get her on a worming programme whilst she's pregnant and your vet is the best person to sort that out for you.


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

Like I say, I have got her in Tuesday with my vet. 

I will ask about the worming program, thankyou. 
It's the way she went from eating nearly half as much as normal daily, to just nothing. Couldn't get my head around it.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

sam1992ok said:


> Like I say, I have got her in Tuesday with my vet.
> 
> I will ask about the worming program, thankyou.
> It's the way she went from eating nearly half as much as normal daily, to just nothing. Couldn't get my head around it.


Glad she's going to the vets.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

sam1992ok said:


> Like I say, I have got her in Tuesday with my vet.
> 
> I will ask about the worming program, thankyou.
> It's the way she went from eating nearly half as much as normal daily, to just nothing. Couldn't get my head around it.


Well, it can happen with a pregnant bitch, but also when there is a phantom pregnancy.

The hormones are in charge, either way.

It can be frustrating, but there really is no way of knowing for sure, until your bitch is scanned and shown either to be in whelp or empty.


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## Badwolfe (Jul 19, 2014)

*cough* German Shepherd *cough*


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

Ah I see. 

See I have been reading into these topics a lot since this has happened. Which is why I booked her into the vets at the recommended time. No matter what the outcome I just hope my girl is ok. 

Anything else I should watch for? Any advice if she is pregnant.. Would be appreciated.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

sam1992ok said:


> Hi all.
> 
> Before I start this question I want to assure everyone who is going to jump to a conclusion that this situation has come about due to a genuine mis understanding.
> 
> ...


You are right, I don't agree with your decision. You have a rescued GSD and have allowed her to mate, after finding blood. You could have got the mismate but have decided to go ahead with the pregnancy inspite of this being a breed with serious health problems.

Disgusting


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## Badwolfe (Jul 19, 2014)

Appetite can go up and down Sam but normally sometime after the fourth week it will start to increase. Pregnant bitches can also be lethargic, clingy and over protective. Normally by about week 5 you will notice a slight thickening of the waist and belly and some growth / colour change in her nipples


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2014)

Glad shes going to the vet.

For future reference, you dont have to spay to terminate a pregnancy, you can also discuss the mismate shot with your vet.


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

I will not comment back to negative comments at all, this wasn't me allowing my dogs to breed, this was a genuine mistake on my part. 

Thank you to both of you, I am looking for new signs and symptoms daily.. As I say he nipples have gotten bigger the tissue underneath seems a lot harder than usual and her mammary glands seem to be swelling. I am measuring her thickness daily, with not much change..


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2014)

Actually can she still go the mismate route at 4 weeks?


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

I'm sure my vet can point my in the right direction, fingers crossed.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

sam1992ok said:


> Ah I see.
> 
> See I have been reading into these topics a lot since this has happened. Which is why I booked her into the vets at the recommended time. No matter what the outcome I just hope my girl is ok.
> 
> *Anything else I should watch for? Any advice if she is pregnant.. Would be appreciated*.


Yes, get her the mismate - Alizin can be given up to 42 days.

If you still insist on this irresponsible breeding then at least get your male dog hip scored, elbow scored and haemophilia tested. Then, once your bitch has had the pups get her tested. At least do the right thing by the puppies and future owners.

Because in spite of you saying it you will take responsibility for the decision, it's not you that will suffer - it's the puppies and their new owners.

I don't give a fig if you ignore it, and I don't care what excuses you come up with. It is your responsibility and you could do the right thing but I somehow doubt you will - you seem to keen to have puppies to do that


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Actually can she still go the mismate route at 4 weeks?


Yes, she can - Alizin can be given up to 42 days and does not have the side effects that the old mismates had. However, a lot of vets aren't up to date with them so you need to ask for it specifically.


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

I'm not keen on having puppies at all. 

All I am bothered about is the health of Bonnie. 
I have got a vet appointment, I will ask for his opinion on how to go from here with the tests you have just mentioned. Your talking to me like I am some irresponsible idiot that doesn't care about his dogs! This is incorrect by a mile!


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2014)

Probably because most of us would not wait 4 weeks to take a baby who had tied with a male to the vet - out of concern for the welfare of the dog. And yes, at 2 years your GSD is still a baby really. Especially if she wasnt eating. Especially if we didnt want pups...


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

sam1992ok said:


> I'm not keen on having puppies at all.
> 
> All I am bothered about is the health of Bonnie.
> I have got a vet appointment, I will ask for his opinion on how to go from here with the tests you have just mentioned. Your talking to me like I am some irresponsible idiot that doesn't care about his dogs! This is incorrect by a mile!


It may be incorrect, but not from what you've posted on here so far.

Why did you wait 4 weeks before asking questions and booking her in to the vets? You could have come onto this forum (or any forum come to that) when you caught them tied. Yet you come on here 4 weeks later saying you've already made the decision to have the litter.......

You may be concerned about your bitch's health, but has it concerned you the risks you are putting her through by proceeding with any pregnancy? Canine pregnancy is not as safe as human pregnancy and bitches do die. Not to mention that you have a bitch that at 2 is still very immature to go through this. You have had her 4 months which is not enough time to fully settle and become fully confident in her new home (however it may appear to you), and yet you are making her go through a pregnancy. Just a final thing for you to think about.... it is not unknown for bitches to kill their pups if they are immature and not confident.... it goes back to the time when they would kill them rather than risk losing them to predators - are you going to make your bitch go through that? Cos in my book that is not caring about the bitch - it's doing what you want.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

sam1992ok said:


> I'm not keen on having puppies at all.
> 
> All I am bothered about is the health of Bonnie.
> I have got a vet appointment, *I will ask for his opinion on how to go from here with the tests you have just mentioned.* Your talking to me like I am some irresponsible idiot that doesn't care about his dogs! This is incorrect by a mile!


BTW - very few vets know much about breeding and they wouldn't know about these tests. Many will not even know about Alizin either.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Sorry, but I thought you said it was YOU who didn't believe in having the pregnancy terminated? Now you are talking about Bonnie's bests interests as though having a litter is whats best for 'her' - she wont know or care! There can be so many complications during pregnancy and she may event need a section, costing thousands.

For a novice who didn't even know whether their adopted dog was neutered or not, you are more knowledgeable than most, insofar as measuring girths and nipple changes. 

Please do the right thing for your dog and end this pregnancy.


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## PBR1 (Dec 16, 2013)

It's always the same old story ... "Accidentally got caught" blah blah blah. The outcome is always the same they want to let the dog have the puppies as it's always in HER best interests and of course they will be responsible and home their non health tested random litter and of course they aren't in it for the money blah blah blah...
Oh no I'm being cynical again...!


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Oh dear God - here we go again..... 

Shame, a rescued GSD, 2 years old and possibly pregnant.... No health tests, inexperienced breeder, same old, same old.

Please please, ask your vet about a mis-mate jab, this world definitely does not need more puppies, especially those from non health-tested parents. 

Bet ya you don't though, If this bitch is actually pregnant, I bet you she is allowed to continue with the pregnancy and produce yet another un-planned and unwanted litter. Sickening and bloody irresponsible.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Yes, get her the mismate - Alizin can be given up to 42 days.


Actually it's 45 days, but the longer it has been left the less chance there is of it working. 
35 days is the recommended last day for first use in case another dose is required at 45 days.

If it's given later in pregnancy there is a chance it may compromise the health of the pups if she remains pregnant. If it works she will actually abort the dead pups.

On the other hand it may not work at all.

This isn't something I'd use if the bitches health isn't at any extended risk by having a litter.

OP......the posters on here have a stock answer to posts like yours and that is "give the bitch the Alizin injection". 
It isn't always the best thing to do, although having a litter isn't easy either. At the end of the day, the choice is yours.

One thing that does concern me is that neither dog or bitch appear to have any health tests. You really should get them tested so you know their status and that of any resulting pups....it's the responsible thing to do.

As for the bitch not eating, it's something a lot of pregnant bitches can go through, keep tempting her with tasty bits like fish, chicken and anything you think she may like. I'm sure she will pick up her appetite over the next week. Just mention it to the vet when you go.

I've got a pregnant bitch at the minute on 37 days....she went off her food last week but this week she's ravenous and will eat absolutely anything and everything


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

sam1992ok said:


> I'm not keen on having puppies at all.
> 
> All I am bothered about is the health of Bonnie.
> I have got a vet appointment, I will ask for his opinion on how to go from here with the tests you have just mentioned. Your talking to me like I am some irresponsible idiot that doesn't care about his dogs! This is incorrect by a mile!


Get her to the vets asap to have the puppies removed.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Darth said:


> Actually it's 45 days, but the longer it has been left the less chance there is of it working.
> 35 days is the recommended last day for first use in case another dose is required at 45 days.
> 
> If it's given later in pregnancy there is a chance it may compromise the health of the pups if she remains pregnant. If it works she will actually abort the dead pups.
> ...


If it was only 4 weeks ago the bitch is around 28 days so well within limits.

I'm rather surprised that the only thing you see wrong is the lack of health tests. So, you think it perfectly OK to put a rescued young immature bitch who has only recently move home to go through a pregnancy? mmm.....

The OP has had plenty of opportunity to stop this but hasn't. For a start, I cannot imagine finding blood and not bothering to check my dogs to see where it had come from before going to bed! Then claiming they are doing the best for this poor immature young bitch that has just recently been rehomed. Sorry, but I thought you were a responsible breeder.


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

The blood was dry. It wasn't fresh! I couldn't find any signs of where the blood was coming from, all seemed fine! I didn't leave them 'thinking they could be bleeding' 

I have spoke to my vet this morning, ALL tests advised by yourselves and my vet will be carried out this week. He also explained the health risks the mismate can cause? Along with spaying while pregnant?

Yes I made a big mistake in not noticing sooner, admittedly.
But atleast I'm asking for the help and advice in what needs doing and ensuring it gets done! Rather than sat not knowing a clue and hoping for the best! I can financially support my Bitch no matter what the outcome. If my vet thinks there's cause for concern her being pregnant! The pregnancy will be ended! 

I'm not sat her wanting the puppies! I just think in some instances nature should be allowed to run its course, yes some people may not agree, but that's your own opinions. 

My Vet will advise me further. 

Thankyou to all who have been understanding.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Darth said:


> Actually it's 45 days, but the longer it has been left the less chance there is of it working.
> 35 days is the recommended last day for first use in case another dose is required at 45 days.
> 
> If it's given later in pregnancy there is a chance it may compromise the health of the pups if she remains pregnant. If it works she will actually abort the dead pups.
> ...


How would you know how the bitchs health will be affected by having a litter? 
And what about the effects on her temperament & stress levels as rocco33 pointed out? This is an immature rescue bitch who has barely had a chance to settle in her new home.

And what about the risk to the potential puppies? Not only health issues, but temperament issues from being whelped by an immature dam in a not very knowledgeable home?

If you think trying to talk the OP in to terminating the pregnancy is a stock answer, then I have to wonder how familiar you are with the rescue crisis. Have you ever dealt with a dog like a GSD with painfully bad structure coupled with a poor temperament? Its horrible to see a dog suffer like that. And there is no reason for it other than people being irresponsible, and laissez-faire enablers egging them on in their irresponsibility.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

sam1992ok said:


> The blood was dry. It wasn't fresh! I couldn't find any signs of where the blood was coming from, all seemed fine! I didn't leave them 'thinking they could be bleeding'
> 
> I have spoke to my vet this morning, ALL tests advised by yourselves and my vet will be carried out this week. He also explained the health risks the mismate can cause? Along with spaying while pregnant?
> 
> ...


Wow, Im impressed youre able to get a hold of your vet on a Sunday morning.

And yet when you caught your bitch and dog tied you were not able to get a hold of the vet and seek advice at that point?


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> If it was only 4 weeks ago the bitch is around 28 days so well within limits.
> 
> I'm rather surprised that the only thing you see wrong is the lack of health tests. So, you think it perfectly OK to put a rescued young immature bitch who has only recently move home to go through a pregnancy? mmm.....
> 
> The OP has had plenty of opportunity to stop this but hasn't. For a start, I cannot imagine finding blood and not bothering to check my dogs to see where it had come from before going to bed! Then claiming they are doing the best for this poor immature young bitch that has just recently been rehomed. *Sorry, but I thought you were a responsible breeder*.


I know the reply was to Darth. But since it IS a public forum and the supposed emphasis is on "educating the general public who is reading also " I simply HAVE to ask:

In which realm, in which galaxy, is advising someone to ensure that their bitch involuntarily aborts her entire litter, in mid pregnancy, a "responsible breeding" suggestion?

Lord knows I am not a pro-life zealot, but THIS is taking the opposite to a reprehensible extreme. Killing an entire litter of unborn puppies because their conception doesn't adhere to your stringent "do & don't" breeding critera?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I know the reply was to Darth. But since it IS a public forum and the supposed emphasis is on "educating the general public who is reading also " I simply HAVE to ask:
> 
> In which realm, in which galaxy, is advising someone to ensure that their bitch involuntarily aborts her entire litter, in mid pregnancy, a "responsible breeding" suggestion?
> 
> Lord knows I am not a pro-life zealot, but THIS is taking the opposite to a reprehensible extreme. Killing an entire litter of unborn puppies because their conception doesn't adhere to your stringent "do & don't" breeding critera?


You are speaking a load of rubbish - I have never suggested aborting a litter because of the do's and don't of breeding.

This is an immature bitch that has not even had the chance to settle into her new home and is being expected to go through a stressful and risky pregnancy.

No idea of health and is putting the pups at risk too.

And YOU think that is right to put this poor bitch through this? 

The OP has already said she wants to do what's best for the bitch but clearly she doesn't - she wasn't the pups.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Yet another unplanned litter, from dogs that are probably not suitable to breed on from temperament wise, let alone health wise. And what a surprise, the OP thinks their rescued girl should have the litter, why on earth was a rescued bitch loose with another dog in any case, since they've only had her a short while. 

I just don't think some people will ever stop allowing their dogs to randomly procreate, the rescues will always be full of dogs while people just don't care enough to allow their animals to produce pups in this way


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

For the benefit of anyone reading this thread who may find themselves in a similar position:

Alizin (the mismate jab) is an effective and reasonably safe alternative to pregnancy when an accidental mating occurs.

Procedure - after mating
Two injections are given 24 hours apart. This should be done around 10 days after the mating, so that the bitch has come out of season and is unlikely to be mated again after the injections. When used at this stage, the pregnancy is resorbed. Transient side effects such as tummy upset, lethargy and inappetance may be observed.

Procedure - during early-mid pregnancy
Alizin can be given up to day 45 of pregnancy. The procedure is the same - two injections given 24 hours apart. When Alizin is given after day 20 of pregnancy, signs of whelping accompany the abortion and the bitch will probably pass dead fetuses accompanied by vaginal discharge.

Procedure - after day 45
Alizin cannot be used at this stage. The options are to go through with the litter or to spay the bitch.

*Be aware that bitches often return to oestrus more quickly after Alizin - 1-3 months earlier than usual.*

Efficacy
Nothing, apart from spaying, guarantees termination of a pregnancy, but Alizin is over 99% effective. An ultrasound scan is recommended around 20 days after treatment to check that there is no pregnancy.

Safety
Alizin is a nasty injection and can cause inflammation where it is injected. This usually resolves over a few days, but it can cause a tender spot or a swelling. Bitches with prolonged vaginal discharge after the injections must be checked by a vet. Alizin is reasonably safe; it has been tested at 3x overdose and the only side effect seen was swelling at the injection site.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

sam1992ok said:


> *I'm not keen on having puppies at all*.
> 
> All I am bothered about is the health of Bonnie.
> I have got a vet appointment, I will ask for his opinion on how to go from here with the tests you have just mentioned. Your talking to me like I am some irresponsible idiot that doesn't care about his dogs! This is incorrect by a mile!


Thats nice to hear after you have let 'nature take its course'  German Shepherds can have litters of 10, what are you going to do if she has 10 puppies? Or 10 puppies that she doesn't look after and you need to do it?

What breed is your un-neutered male dog?

And just so you know when a human / animal mates / ties it DOES NOT = pregnant within seconds!! and it is NOT 'killing' puppies, the puppies do not exist, until you leave it so long... that they do! Its like the morning after pill.



sam1992ok said:


> The blood was dry. It wasn't fresh! I couldn't find any signs of where the blood was coming from, all seemed fine! I didn't leave them 'thinking they could be bleeding'
> 
> I have spoke to my vet this morning, *ALL tests advised by yourselves and my vet will be carried out this week*. He also explained the health risks the mismate can cause? Along with spaying while pregnant?
> 
> ...


How can a vet hip score, elbow score a pregnant German shepherd? A lot of breeders are now eye testing and others that I cant think of, but found this:

Parents should be tested for:
•Degenerative myelopathy (CDRM) (degenerative disease of the spinal cord, causing hindquarter weakness, loss of feeling and paralysis)
•Pyruvate Kinase deficiency ( a key enzyme deficiency which shortens the lifespan of red blood cells leading to haemolytic anaemia)
•Ivermectin sensitivity
•Mucopolysaccharidosis (rare enzyme deficiency causing damage to bones, joints and organs)

Unofficial (breed club) schemes
•Haemophilia test for males
•Bitches under 2 years not to produce a litter
•No stud dog to be used under 18 months of age

German Shepherd Dog | Dog Breed Health


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Wow, Im impressed youre able to get a hold of your vet on a Sunday morning.
> 
> And yet when you caught your bitch and dog tied you were not able to get a hold of the vet and seek advice at that point?


I know - amazing isn't it! These people must think we were born yesterday.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> Thats nice to hear after you have let 'nature take its course'  German Shepherds can have litters of 10, what are you going to do if she has 10 puppies? Or 10 puppies that she doesn't look after and you need to do it?
> 
> What breed is your un-neutered male dog?
> 
> ...


Yes, I wondered that too  Oh, and what fantastic luck that her vet (that she managed to speak to on a Sunday morning) is one of the 35 ophthalmic specialists on the panel that can carry out the BVA tests?


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I know the reply was to Darth. But since it IS a public forum and the supposed emphasis is on "educating the general public who is reading also " I simply HAVE to ask:
> 
> *In which realm, in which galaxy, is advising someone to ensure that their bitch involuntarily aborts her entire litter, in mid pregnancy, a "responsible breeding" suggestion?*
> 
> Lord knows I am not a pro-life zealot, but THIS is taking the opposite to a reprehensible extreme. Killing an entire litter of unborn puppies because their conception doesn't adhere to your stringent "do & don't" breeding critera?


Its not a responsible breeding suggestion, its a care about dogs suggestion.
Its not in the bitchs best interest to have a litter period.
Its not in a puppys best interest to be born of unproven parents in to a less than knowledgeable home.
The outcome for both bitch and puppies is not favorable therefore the kinder thing to do is terminate the pregnancy for the sake of the bitch and any potential pups.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Its not a responsible breeding suggestion, its a care about dogs suggestion.
> Its not in the bitchs best interest to have a litter period.
> Its not in a puppys best interest to be born of unproven parents in to a less than knowledgeable home.
> The outcome for both bitch and puppies is not favorable therefore the kinder thing to do is terminate the pregnancy for the sake of the bitch and any potential pups.


Unfortunately, all many people can think of is that you're ending the lives of unborn pups, which sounds mean. But the alternative is that even if they are born healthy, and found homes, so many dogs are bred randomly, end up getting passed from pillar to post, develop behavioural issues, end up in rescue, waiting for a home that never comes and get killed in any case. But people don't like the idea of not giving them a chance to live in the first place, because it seems cruel to deny basic existence, yet go down to any rescue kennel and look at all the dogs in there that were given that chance, and then ask *yourself* which is the kinder option for unplanned litters like this.

Not aimed at you btw, just read that back and it sounded a bit *pointed*, agree completely with your post but sadly most people fail to see it as the kind option.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> You are speaking a load of rubbish - I have never suggested aborting a litter because of the do's and don't of breeding.
> 
> This is an immature bitch that has not even had the chance to settle into her new home and is being expected to go through a stressful and risky pregnancy.
> 
> ...


You are missing the point.

The OP's dog IS pregnant. Not since yesterday. Nor since a week. She is halfway through her pregnancy.

Her/his bitch is 2. Not 10 months. In terms of physical maturity that isn't an issue.

What is an issue is you recommending terminating a pregnancy half way through, because it doesn't conform to your ethos. Or do you believe the mismate jab transforms the unborn pups into sparkly stardust?


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Unfortunately, all many people can think of is that you're ending the lives of unborn pups, which sounds mean. But the alternative is that even if they are born healthy, and found homes, so many dogs are bred randomly, end up getting passed from pillar to post, develop behavioural issues, end up in rescue, waiting for a home that never comes and get killed in any case. But people don't like the idea of not giving them a chance to live in the first place, because it seems cruel to deny basic existence, *yet go down to any rescue kennel and look at all the dogs in there that were given that chance, and then ask *yourself* which is the kinder option for unplanned litters like this.*
> 
> Not aimed at you btw, just read that back and it sounded a bit *pointed*, agree completely with your post but sadly most people fail to see it as the kind option.


Exactly this. The odds of 8 to 10 puppies from this kind of breeding ending up sound in appropriate homes are ridiculously low. 
So lets be real and assume most of them are going to have some sort of either physical or temperamental issues if not both.
Its also very realistic to assume they will end up in a less than savvy home because no one who knows what theyre doing is going to take on a pup from this kind of breeding, certainly not pay for one (and we all know the OP isnt going to give em away for free  ).

So what is the outcome for a pup with issues in a home that doesnt know how to handle them? Not pretty. Not by a long shot. Either way the pup is going to suffer.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> You are missing the point.
> 
> The OP's dog IS pregnant. Not since yesterday. Nor since a week. She is halfway through her pregnancy.
> 
> ...


Think about it. The idea of aborting pups is a horrible thought and one that nobody on here ever wants to suggest. BUT as responsible pet owners and animal lovers you really need to see the bigger picture here.

Thousands, if not millions of animals, not just dogs are now looking for homes. Animal shelters are overflowing and so are having to turn away hundreds of dogs monthly. So now, OP's dog is pregnant. Yes, halfway through a pregnancy which could have been prevented already  but hasn't. Now, while the thought of abortion is horrible, these pups will know nothing about it. Instead of a life with an uncertain future, passed from pillar to post, neglected, abandoned and possibly eventually pts due to lack of homes.

And yes, it will be horrible for the poor bitch involved but it would be at her best interests and the pup's overall.
Personally, I think OP is very selfish and the replies s/he has posted have made me literally facepalm.

I'm trying to sit on my hands here but while there is still the option of prevention, i'm all for it.

Please OP, do the right thing by your dog and the pups here.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> You are missing the point.
> 
> The OP's dog IS pregnant. Not since yesterday. Nor since a week. She is halfway through her pregnancy.
> 
> ...


Have you ever bred? Have you ever seen what it can take out of a bitch? Have you ever witnessed a young immature bitch in distress?

No, didn't think so!

2 is still immature for a GSD Physical maturity has nothing to do with it - it is the mental stress that a bitch goes through and this is not fair on an immature bitch. And this poor bitch has only just been passed on to her new owner and not yet settled in.

No one is suggesting that the mismate is a good thing, of course not, one would hope that people don't get into that situation. However, it is by far the lesser of two evils and far better for this bitch than putting her through the stress of a pregnancy.

It is YOU that is missing the point.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> You are missing the point.
> 
> The OP's dog IS pregnant. Not since yesterday. Nor since a week. She is halfway through her pregnancy.
> 
> ...


For a GSD it very much could be. Depending on the lines, she may still have a year of growing to do, her growth plates may still be slightly open, and not for nothing, the growth plates that are slowest to close are the ones in the hips and elbows. 
Not to mention the mental maturing she still has to do.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

PBR1 said:


> It's always the same old story ... "Accidentally got caught" blah blah blah. The outcome is always the same they want to let the dog have the puppies as it's always in HER best interests and of course they will be responsible and home their non health tested random litter and of course they aren't in it for the money blah blah blah...
> Oh no I'm being cynical again...!


Go you!


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

QueenMoo said:


> Think about it. The idea of aborting pups is a horrible thought and one that nobody on here ever wants to suggest. BUT as responsible pet owners and animal lovers you really need to see the bigger picture here.
> 
> Thousands, if not millions of animals, not just dogs are now looking for homes. Animal shelters are overflowing and so are having to turn away hundreds of dogs monthly. So now, OP's dog is pregnant. Yes, halfway through a pregnancy which could have been prevented already  but hasn't. Now, while the thought of abortion is horrible, these pups will know nothing about it. Instead of a life with an uncertain future, passed from pillar to post, neglected, abandoned and possibly eventually pts due to lack of homes.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about?

Which SPECIFIC shelter are you referring to which is overflowing with healthy pups? I am involved with several local ones - what they are overflowing with is adult dogs riddled with behavioural issues. Are we taking the position that UNTIL all of those are rehomed we better kill off all the unplanned still in utero ones?

And who says the unborn pups "will know nothing about it". Abortions are time sensitive and arguably, the duration of THIS one has gone on too long for it to be terminated.

So HOW exactly is it better , not in sentimental but in concrete terms, for the bitch or the pups or the owner to kill the litter now? Because that's what is advised - kill the litter. A more flowery terminology won't change that.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> Which SPECIFIC shelter are you referring to which is overflowing with healthy pups? *I am involved with several local ones - what they are overflowing with is adult dogs riddled with behavioural issues.* Are we taking the position that UNTIL all of those are rehomed we better kill off all the unplanned still in utero ones?
> 
> ...


And where did those adult dogs with behavioural issues come from?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> Which SPECIFIC shelter are you referring to which is overflowing with healthy pups? I am involved with several local ones - what they are overflowing with is adult dogs riddled with behavioural issues. Are we taking the position that UNTIL all of those are rehomed we better kill off all the unplanned still in utero ones?
> 
> ...


It's already been said but you pick and choose what you want to listen to.

Much like the OP who claims they want to do what is best for this poor bitch that they rescued a few months ago, but clearly they have no intention of doing anything except having puppies and is doubtful whether they ever did given the opportunities they have had to do something about this during the last 4 weeks.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> Which SPECIFIC shelter are you referring to which is overflowing with healthy pups? I am involved with several local ones - what they are overflowing with is adult dogs riddled with behavioural issues. Are we taking the position that UNTIL all of those are rehomed we better kill off all the unplanned still in utero ones?
> 
> ...


Not just healthy pups but healthy adult dogs too. You know, ones desperate for homes because there are so many dogs about now that there just aren't any homes around for them all. And yet, here you are, telling OP to go ahead with the pregnancy of who knows how many puppies - In which OP is just going to have to 'hope for the best' in the sense that the dog doesn't struggle or become seriously ill in labour, hoping all the pups are alive and healthy and that none need any human help..

So you're involved with a lot of rescues, those dogs you're talking about with behavioural issues. What are there stories? Are they like that down to bad breeding, a bad upbringing or just because they were left to their own devices?

I quote; ''what they are overflowing with is adult dogs riddled with behavioural issues. Are we taking the position that UNTIL all of those are rehomed we better kill off all the unplanned still in utero ones?''

^ Not at all. But these pups that are unplanned but known about (Owner has seen the dogs tie and not done anything about it until it's almost too late), dogs that haven't been health checked, pups from litters of random - usually unsuitable mixes with the parents. I mean, how bloody difficult is it to see. We as a country are up sh*t creek without a paddle with the animal situation. Why are you suggesting we add more to the already overflowing population?

Nobody is trying to sugar coat it. That's what we are suggesting OP does, kill a litter of unborn pups. There, I said it. A very unselfish thing to do in current times in an already overpopulated world with so many dogs who are messed up, behavioural issues, health issues etc.. I just don't know why you're condoning adding more to the situation.

And I fully believe that OP is going to side with the one person who is suggesting what OP wants.

ETA - I see OP is liking the above posters comments.
You never know, we can hope this is just a troll post to rattle our cages.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And where did those adult dogs with behavioural issues come from?


Inept owners, largely.

But ineptitude isn't tied to a pup from a planned or unplanned litter.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Inept owners, largely.
> 
> But ineptitude isn't tied to a pup from a planned or unplanned litter.


And where did the inept owners get these pups/dogs from?


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

OP - Are you planning on selling the puppies?


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> I'm rather surprised that the only thing you see wrong is the lack of health tests. So, you think it perfectly OK to put a rescued young immature bitch who has only recently move home to go through a pregnancy? mmm.....
> 
> Sorry, but I thought you were a responsible breeder.


The bitch is already in whelp, I don't believe using Alizin is the cure all it's made out to be on here, or spaying an in whelp bitch is the answer, especially if there's an alternative, in this case, the OP is willing to go ahead and let the bitch have pups.

I can't imagine a bashing on here is going to change their mind, in fact, I think it's a bit arrogant to think anyone's going to take notice of your opinions or for that matter anyone else's about letting the bitch have her litter, they only asked about feeding advice.

I didn't say the situation was ideal but I do think if the OP went with the health testing at least it's going some way to make a poor situation a little better.

And quite honestly, I don't give a monkeys chuff if you or anyone else thinks I'm a responsible breeder or not.....my conscience is clear.


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

To all those wondering the MALE is also a GSD! 

And to anyone wondering, I'm not thinking of selling puppies as I am
not in this for the money either! Small deposits will be accepted with full home checks done before any pups leave my home.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And where did the inept owners get these pups/dogs from?


Oh, come on SL.

Where exactly are you going with this?

Are you implying they all came from unplanned matings? Which we both know is rubbish.

This isn't a philosophical question to ponder whether or not THAT mating was a great idea. The OP's bitch is halfway through the pregnancy, and the pups should be destroyed on account of ....what? Because it doesn't tally with a noble breeding philosophy?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Darth said:


> The bitch is already in whelp, I don't believe using Alizin is the cure all it's made out to be on here, or spaying an in whelp bitch is the answer, especially if there's an alternative, in this case, the OP is willing to go ahead and let the bitch have pups.
> 
> I can't imagine a bashing on here is going to change their mind, in fact, I think it's a bit arrogant to think anyone's going to take notice of your opinions or for that matter anyone else's about letting the bitch have her litter, they only asked about feeding advice.
> 
> ...


I don't think they will take any notice of my advice for one minute - including the advice I gave about getting his dogs health tested. However, it is a public forum and we are all entitled to post.

It was pretty obvious to me, from the first post, that the OP had not intentions of doing anything other than have this litter, regardless of how much stress it puts his bitch under.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Exactly this. The odds of 8 to 10 puppies from this kind of breeding ending up sound in appropriate homes are ridiculously low.
> So lets be real and assume most of them are going to have some sort of either physical or temperamental issues if not both.
> Its also very realistic to assume they will end up in a less than savvy home because no one who knows what theyre doing is going to take on a pup from this kind of breeding, certainly not pay for one (and we all know the OP isnt going to give em away for free  ).
> 
> So what is the outcome for a pup with issues in a home that doesnt know how to handle them? Not pretty. Not by a long shot. Either way the pup is going to suffer.


You seem to be assuming rather a lot.....are you familiar with the dog and bitch?


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

You all seem to be very quick to judge, I asked for advice. You all have your own opinions but if you care for dogs that much, surely you would want to give me advice instead of giving me a lot of grief on the matter.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Oh, come on SL.
> 
> Where exactly are you going with this?
> 
> ...


Of course they didn't all come from unplanned matings, but the likelihood of pups from this sort of breeding ending up in rescue, rather than a breeder who spends a lot of time researching and home checking, selling pups under contract even, is a lot higher. Yes, sometimes pups from supposedly good breeders end up in rescue, but any good breeder I know would move heaven and earth to get a pup back they'd bred, rather than let them end up in rescue.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Oh, come on SL.
> 
> Where exactly are you going with this?
> 
> ...


No, because this is a young immature young bitch that is going through the stress of settling into a new home who is now, due to her owners ignorance and selfishness, going to have to go through the stress of raising a litter too!

And while not all rescues come from unplanned matings, this is typical of so many poor dogs bred from ignorant people. End up in the freeads and passed on/sold to the next owner like pass the parcel. This bitch hasn't even gone through rescue - if she did the chances are she would have been spayed or not rehomed with an entire dog if there was any uncertainty of her being spayed.

No, this is exactly the situation that maintains the 'pass the parcel' dog that is so frequently advertised on the freeads. And now there will be more of them.

I'm surprised that someone that helps with rescue sees that as a good thing


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Clearly you have made your decision and to be honest, I think you posted on here with the intention of causing a stir.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Darth said:


> You seem to be assuming rather a lot.....are you familiar with the dog and bitch?


Its called making an educated guess based on experience.

Like rocco33 said, some things are obvious from the start.

Im still trying to figure out how the OP managed to have such an informative conversation with their vet on a sunday morning, but couldnt get a hold of the vet when they found their bitch and dog tied, nor in the 4 weeks after, nor in the whole week the bitch was not eating.

You know, stuff like that....


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sam1992ok said:


> You all seem to be very quick to judge, I asked for advice. You all have your own opinions but if you care for dogs that much, surely you would want to give me advice instead of giving me a lot of grief on the matter.


Look back through the breeding section, and see how many posts like this have happened, it might help you to understand the cynicism many of *us* hold for threads like this.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

sam1992ok said:


> You all seem to be very quick to judge, I asked for advice. You all have your own opinions but if you care for dogs that much, surely you would want to give me advice instead of giving me a lot of grief on the matter.


Advice will always be given here and the advice will always be 100% on keeping an animal happy and healthy.
You have gone against our advice and thus I doubt anybody will give any more as it will fall on deaf ears.


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

Of course i will be honest! 

Im even speaking to my local police force who are very interested in taking a look at the pups and taking a few to work with them in out local dog unit. I wish people would stop talking to me like I couldn't give a rats ass about my bitch or her prospective litter. I am not heartless and I certainly will not allow and do everything in my power to ensure no pups end up in shelters!


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

I have not gone against advice I have stated all health checks wil be done accordingly, my private vet with 40 years experience is contacting the relevant contacts to proceed with the tests. I am taking all advice in I just will not be bullied by people who do not know me or my background.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

sam1992ok said:


> Of course i will be honest!
> 
> Im even speaking to my local police force who are very interested in taking a look at the pups and taking a few to work with them in out local dog unit. I wish people would stop talking to me like I couldn't give a rats ass about my bitch or her prospective litter. _I am not heartless and I certainly will not allow and do everything in my power to ensure no pups end up in shelters!_


Once the pups go to new homes, you have no say over where they go. Shelter or otherwise.
And I highly doubt the police will be interested in your puppies without seeing some sort of health certificate on the parents.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

sam1992ok said:


> You all seem to be very quick to judge, I asked for advice. You all have your own opinions but if you care for dogs that much, surely you would want to give me advice instead of giving me a lot of grief on the matter.


You've had plenty of advice but you have chosen to ignore it and go ahead and put your poor bitch through this at a time when she should be settling into her new home.

If your vet is so good, then I suggest you get any future advice from them if you don't like what's on here. After all, you seem to have an excellent relationship with your vet and are able to speak to them out of hours too. Actually, you'll need to because the vast majority of whelpings occur during the night so you will need your vet on standby and have the funds available in case she requires a c section (in my area it costs around £1800 for an out of hours c section).


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

This is getting beyond a joke now.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

sam1992ok said:


> Of course i will be honest!
> 
> *Im even speaking to my local police force who are very interested in taking a look at the pups and taking a few to work with them in out local dog unit.* I wish people would stop talking to me like I couldn't give a rats ass about my bitch or her prospective litter. I am not heartless and I certainly will not allow and do everything in my power to ensure no pups end up in shelters!


Oh stop!!! Thats hilarious! You really are full of it arent you?

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.

Nothing like removing all doubt


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Oh stop!!! Thats hilarious! You really are full of it arent you?
> 
> Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.
> 
> Nothing like removing all doubt


It is the school holidays after all


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

QueenMoo said:


> This is getting beyond a joke now.


In the OP the poster didnt even know if their bitch was pregnant, now were talking to the local police force who are *very* interested in an accidental litter from untested/unproven stock.

With a vet thats open on sundays and can do ALL the relevant health tests, some of which on a 2 year old whos already pregnant.

You cant make this stuff up. Oh, wait... yes, apparently you can....


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Oh stop!!! Thats hilarious! You really are full of it arent you?
> 
> Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.
> 
> Nothing like removing all doubt


I know - it's a joke.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> In the OP the poster didnt even know if their bitch was pregnant, now were talking to the local police force who are *very* interested in an accidental litter from untested/unproven stock.
> 
> With a vet thats open on sundays and can do ALL the relevant health tests, some of which on a 2 year old whos already pregnant.
> 
> You cant make this stuff up. Oh, wait... yes, apparently you can....


I called troll a few posts back 
OP, you've been sussed out. Why don't you go play outside?


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

QueenMoo said:


> I called troll a few posts back
> OP, you've been sussed out. Why don't you go play outside?


Oh, I bet they do have two GSDs who tied. I just dont believe the rest of it. Which makes me wonder what story the potential puppy buyers will be told....


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Oh, I bet they do have two GSDs who tied. I just dont believe the rest of it. Which makes me wonder what story the potential puppy buyers will be told....


I wish they were a troll too, but I agree.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Oh, I bet they do have two GSDs who tied. I just dont believe the rest of it. Which makes me wonder what story the potential puppy buyers will be told....


Who knows, OP seems to have been adding bits to the tale and changing parts of it. Surely cannot be true..


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

sam1992ok said:


> To all those wondering the *MALE is also a GSD! *
> And to anyone wondering, I'm not thinking of selling puppies as I am
> not in this for the money either! Small deposits will be accepted with full home checks done before any pups leave my home.


What luck! :biggrin5:



sam1992ok said:


> Of course i will be honest!
> 
> Im even speaking to my local police force who are very interested in taking a look at the pups and taking a few to work with them in out local dog unit. I wish people would stop talking to me like I couldn't give a rats ass about my bitch or her prospective litter. I am not heartless and I certainly will not allow and do everything in my power to ensure no pups end up in shelters!


Erm... why would the police take a pup from a rescue dog with no history of either parents when they breed from their own 'stock' for the police? When did you even ask them??  



Taylorbaby said:


> Thats nice to hear after you have let 'nature take its course'  German Shepherds can have litters of 10, what are you going to do if she has 10 puppies? Or 10 puppies that she doesn't look after and you need to do it?
> 
> What breed is your un-neutered male dog?
> 
> ...


Answer please, how the vet is going to do these tests on a pregnant dog, and will your male be tested to?


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Good old police force, helping out the local community. :lol:
OP, what tosh.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sam1992ok said:


> Of course i will be honest!
> 
> Im even speaking to my local police force who are very interested in taking a look at the pups and taking a few to work with them in out local dog unit. I wish people would stop talking to me like I couldn't give a rats ass about my bitch or her prospective litter. I am not heartless and I certainly will not allow and do everything in my power to ensure no pups end up in shelters!


Honestly, you need your spade confiscating, there are people on this forum who have been involved with dogs in all shapes and forms for many years. The police force won't be interested in pups from a litter like this I'm afraid. And no matter if you go ahead and health test both of your dogs, that doesn't take away the issue that this young bitch is likely to suffer by allowing the pregnancy to continue.

Private vet? Do you mean your own private vet, or just one who has their own business? To be very honest, a lot of them are not that clued up when it comes to breeding, they know how to deal with it when it goes wrong, but are not knowledgeable about health testing. If, by any chance, your own vet does happen to be one of the specialist eye vets, and also knows how to take plates for hips/elbows, then maybe they are a bit more knowledgeable, but that would be a huge coincidence.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Taylorbaby said:


> What luck! :biggrin5:
> 
> Erm... why would the police take a pup from a rescue dog with no history of either parents when they breed from their own 'stock' for the police? When did you even ask them??


Ah! I wondered whether they bred their own dogs or not!! Thank you for confirming. :biggrin5:


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

QueenMoo said:


> OP - Are you planning on selling the puppies?


Queenmoo, you got in before me!

Op, I'm coming at this from a different angle, I know nothing about breeding or bitches in whelp but I do know about pups from an unplanned litter.

Say you don't get your bitch the mis mate jab and then it's the perfect pregnancy and delivery - have you thought about what you're going to do with a possibly very large litter of pups?

8 weeks of round the clock care, feeding and cleaning, that's two months, have you the time and the patience for that?

After that, I would assume you would have a bond with the pups, I can't imagine just letting any old eejit then coming and taking my precious dogs to god knows where. Would you be thinking the gumtree route or would you give them to a rescue?

You don't really know your bitches true temperament after just 4 months, besides the health implications, the litter could inherit a whole host of behavioural quirks that not all dog owners could deal with. Are you willing to take back any pups that their new owners no longer want for whatever reason as the alternative is that they end up on gumtree or a rescue really.

The reason I'm posting is that my pup is from a rescue, I can only assume he was the result of 'an unplanned mating' and I often think about his dam and sire and how the other pups are getting on.

On more than one occasion we have commented that it wouldn't be a surprise if some of his litter were returned as if they are anything like him, then they would be monsters!

Continually on the go and I genuinely mean that, neurotic, oh, he's a creature and what I'm trying to get at in a round about way is that someone who just saw a cute puppy online and had no clue about dogs and breeding and temperament could not cope with him, so he would go on gumtree with some lame excuse or, to a rescue so YOU will have to find homes, possibly times ten where this isn't going to happen, can you do that?

I know we all seem harsh but we seriously only want what's best for your dog, it is a dog lovers forum and we care passionately about dogs and many here end up having to clean up after unwanted litters, so please take a step back and have a serious thing about wether you want your bitch to continue with the pregnancy and what that really entails for both her and the pups or discuss with your vet about the mis mate jab or an emergency spay.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> No, because this is a young immature young bitch that is going through the stress of settling into a new home who is now, due to her owners ignorance and selfishness, going to have to go through the stress of raising a litter too!
> 
> And while not all rescues come from unplanned matings, this is typical of so many poor dogs bred from ignorant people. End up in the freeads and passed on/sold to the next owner like pass the parcel. This bitch hasn't even gone through rescue - if she did the chances are she would have been spayed or not rehomed with an entire dog if there was any uncertainty of her being spayed.
> 
> ...


You are assuming a lot. BECAUSE I am involved with rescue I can tell you that there is little merit in your assertions.

You can turn it any way you want it - advising to abort a litter shortly before birth is canine eugenics gone too far. Advising that the bitch is actually best served by whelping a litter of stillborn pups, purposefully destroyed in the womb, is crazy. And asserting that this is in anyones best interest other than the moral apostles battlecry of "responsible breeding" is ludicrous.

Forgot to answer your question about me breeding: no. Not a pet, not even myself. On purpose, no less. But if I shared the forums prevailing attitude and respect for prospective life, I'd phone up my OBGYN and book in for a selective hysterectomy tomorrow. Nobody should have that little respect for unborn life. It's icky.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

ouesi said:


> In the OP the poster didnt even know if their bitch was pregnant, now were talking to the local police force who are *very* interested in an accidental litter from untested/unproven stock.
> 
> With a vet thats open on sundays and can do ALL the relevant health tests, some of which on a 2 year old whos already pregnant.
> 
> You cant make this stuff up. Oh, wait... yes, apparently you can....


TBF, there are some veterinary practices who provide a Sunday clinic. 

Would be surprised - no, amazed - NO, _disappointed_ - if the police select their dogs from stock with origins such as this.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> You are assuming a lot. BECAUSE I am involved with rescue I can tell you that there is little merit in your assertions.
> 
> You can turn it any way you want it - advising to abort a litter shortly before birth is canine eugenics gone too far. Advising that the bitch is actually best served by whelping a litter of stillborn pups, purposefully destroyed in the womb, is crazy. And asserting that this is in anyones best interest other than the moral apostles battlecry of "responsible breeding" is ludicrous.
> 
> Forgot to answer your question about me breeding: no. Not a pet, not even myself. On purpose, no less. But if I shared the forums prevailing attitude and respect for prospective life, I'd phone up my OBGYN and book in for a selective hysterectomy tomorrow. Nobody should have that little respect for unborn life. It's icky.


She's not imminent, she's about half way through her pregnancy, pups at this point wouldn't be able to survive if they were born.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> You are assuming a lot. BECAUSE I am involved with rescue I can tell you that there is little merit in your assertions.
> 
> You can turn it any way you want it - advising to abort a litter shortly before birth is canine eugenics gone too far. Advising that the bitch is actually best served by whelping a litter of stillborn pups, purposefully destroyed in the womb, is crazy. And asserting that this is in anyones best interest other than the moral apostles battlecry of "responsible breeding" is ludicrous.
> 
> Forgot to answer your question about me breeding: no. Not a pet, not even myself. On purpose, no less. But if I shared the forums prevailing attitude and respect for prospective life, I'd phone up my OBGYN and book in for a selective hysterectomy tomorrow. Nobody should have that little respect for unborn life. It's icky.


I too have been involved with a number of rescues for many years, so I can disagree.

This is not shortly before birth - get real. You seem to be on a crusade against 'responsible breeding'. I don't know how many times it has to be said, but this has nothing to do with that - it is all in your head and seems to be your own personal bandwagon. This is about doing what is best for a young bitch and avoiding putting her through a stressful and risky situation given that she has just been through one that she probably hasn't fully settled from.

You are misguided in thinking we don't have respect for life. In fact, we are putting life first, the life of the bitch and the potential life of the whelps.

You clearly have no idea of breeding and what it entails - you seem to have the fanciful idea that it is something romantic and that makes it ok. Fine come on and say that you are pro life and don't believe in destroying life for any reason, but don't try and tell people about breeding and how it is best for a bitch of this age and circumstance when you don't know anything about breeding.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> She's not imminent, she's about half way through her pregnancy, pups at this point wouldn't be able to survive if they were born.


Doesn't make it any less icky.

It is wrong to abort that litter at this time. Whether the owner should have done something different at an earlier time doesn't come into the equasion right NOW.

It isn't about the OP. It is about the dogs. Both present and about to be born.

We can't go round suggesting that all unborn pups from unplanned litters should be annihilated. There is no realm in which this is deemed acceptable. I am all for planned parenthood in any species, but this doesn't mean that anyone falling outside it should be automatically destroyed.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

QueenMoo said:


> Ah! I wondered whether they bred their own dogs or not!! Thank you for confirming. :biggrin5:


I see it on tv lol  There is a big breeding centre where they also train and renew licences (Could be wrong wording here this was about 3 years ago) and they showed you a police dog mum & the dad and the pups being cared for at this centre, saying about pedigrees and health testing


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Doesn't make it any less icky.
> 
> It is wrong to abort that litter at this time. Whether the owner should have done something different at an earlier time doesn't come into the equasion right NOW.
> 
> ...


You clearly have no idea what a stressful and risky experience having a litter is on a bitch do you?

And this is a bitch that has just been rehomed. Sorry, but putting a bitch through this is not acceptable either and far worse for the bitch than going through a mismate at this age. Delivery is not imminent - again, I would suggest you read up a bit about breeding before making such statements.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Doesn't make it any less icky.
> 
> It is wrong to abort that litter at this time. Whether the owner should have done something different at an earlier time doesn't come into the equasion right NOW.
> 
> ...


OMG... do you know how many dogs and puppies are euthanized in shelters DAILY because of this sort of breeding?

But lets focus on *this* specific OP in *this* thread who is clearly telling a few total whoppers. Do you really think there is a hopeful outcome for any puppies that come out of this clusterfluck?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Doesn't make it any less icky.
> 
> It is wrong to abort that litter at this time. Whether the owner should have done something different at an earlier time doesn't come into the equasion right NOW.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid I will always see it the other way, in fact to me it's irresponsible to allow some litters to come to full term. A good friend of mine got caught out with one of her bitches, who is eight years old and entire, one of her other bitches opened the back door, and her young dog caught the eight year old bitch, and she was definitely pregnant. Now would you still think it's ok for that litter to go ahead?

She ended up spaying the bitch to abort the litter.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> I see it on tv lol  There is a big breeding centre where they also train and renew licences (Could be wrong wording here this was about 3 years ago) and they showed you a police dog mum & the dad and the pups being cared for at this centre, saying about pedigrees and health testing


Like many of the assistance charities (Guide dogs have had their own breeding programme for many years), they are now looking at breeding their own dogs. To train a working dog, whether police, assistance or any other dog takes a lot of time (and money) so they do not want to waste it on a dog from such a questionable past without health testing or temperament testing.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> I too have been involved with a number of rescues for many years, so I can disagree.
> 
> This is not shortly before birth - get real. You seem to be on a crusade against 'responsible breeding'. I don't know how many times it has to be said, but this has nothing to do with that - it is all in your head and seems to be your own personal bandwagon. This is about doing what is best for a young bitch and avoiding putting her through a stressful and risky situation given that she has just been through one that she probably hasn't fully settled from.
> 
> ...


Please don't sit on a high and mighty horse due to your indepth experience of mating a bitch to a dog and whelping a litter or 2. That does not make you an expert on anything other than,potentially, in your heightened self esteem.

The bitch in question is allegedly 2, had a normal pregnancy and is not roaming the streets in Syria, starving, with bombs hailing around her. So get a grip on who you do and don't advise on aborting a litter.

Abort your own litters halfway through pregnancy and see whether it feels morally questionable. Then, report back.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Please don't sit on a high and mighty horse due to your indepth experience of mating a bitch to a dog and whelping a litter or 2. That does not make you an expert on anything other than,potentially, in your heightened self esteem.
> 
> The bitch in question is allegedly 2, had a normal pregnancy and is not roaming the streets in Syria, starving, with bombs hailing around her. So get a grip on who you do and don't advise on aborting a litter.
> 
> Abort your own litters halfway through pregnancy and see whether it feels morally questionable. Then, report back.


Yawn....... the bitch has already had a normal pregnancy? So what this is the second pregnancy? mmmm


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Please don't sit on a high and mighty horse due to your indepth experience of mating a bitch to a dog and whelping a litter or 2. That does not make you an expert on anything other than,potentially, in your heightened self esteem.
> 
> The bitch in question is allegedly 2, had a normal pregnancy and is not roaming the streets in Syria, starving, with bombs hailing around her. So get a grip on who you do and don't advise on aborting a litter.
> 
> Abort your own litters halfway through pregnancy and see whether it feels morally questionable. Then, report back.


:thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

No member on this forum owes you anything. And certainly not just because you dont happen to agree with what theyre posting.

Im thinking its not rocco33 who needs to get a grip....


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> In your opinion.
> 
> In my opinion it's utterly wrong to wilfully bring into the world a litter of puppies with such odds stacked against them. Who in their right minds is going to buy a GSD puppy from a clueless BYB where the bitch is an almost completely unknown quantity? The sorts of people pups like this _should_ be going to aren't going to be scouring the free ads, they'll be going to rescues or decent breeders.
> 
> What about the poor bitch? She's already been shunted about from one home to another and it's highly unlikely she'll be settled in yet. How is it the best thing for her to have to go through the pregnancy, birth and rearing the pups?


Perfectly valid point.

In my opinion.

I don't know the dam, or the sire, or the OP. Perhaps if I did, I'd see it differently. Perhaps, due to the temperament of the parents, I'd beg her not to continue.

But since I don't know....and no one else knows either....why condemn an entire litter?

Show me the medical statistics indicating that a 2 year old GSD expecting a litter from another GSD is at undue risk giving birth.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Hey sam1992ok, what ever happened to your two APBT that tied back on the 15th of July? 

You know, the one you were on pitbull chat asking about how you could tell if the bitch was pregnant?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Hey sam1992ok, what ever happened to your two APBT that tied back on the 15th of July?
> 
> You know, the one you were on pitbull chat asking about how you could tell if the bitch was pregnant?


Crikey, sounds like the OP has a busy time breeding dogs!


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Crikey, sounds like the OP has a busy time breeding dogs!


or making up BS stories on dog forums.

Sadly I think this person does have dogs, a pitbull named Bruno for sure, and now if they have a GSD bitch on top of that, I shudder to think what other breeding plans are going on....


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> or making up BS stories on dog forums.
> 
> Sadly I think this person does have dogs, a pitbull named Bruno for sure, and now if they have a GSD bitch on top of that, I shudder to think what other breeding plans are going on....


Is it a US forum? Sounds like the OP is from the UK, if it's the same person, then breeding pit bull types is not only illegal, but completely irresponsible as the dogs are at risk of being seized, and put to sleep.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Perfectly valid point.
> 
> In my opinion.
> 
> ...


You are talking physically, at 2 the growth plates may not be closed but should still be ok. Mentally, though she is still a youngster - and a rescue/rehome settling into her new home. If she's not comfortable, then she may well hold onto the pups during labour and not be confident enough to give birth - this does happen and the risk is increased considerably because she has only just moved to a new home. In inexperienced hands the pups could die in utero and risk the bitch too. But no doubt you'll find some way of rubbishing that too.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Is it a US forum? Sounds like the OP is from the UK, if it's the same person, then breeding pit bull types is not only illegal, but completely irresponsible as the dogs are at risk of being seized, and put to sleep.


True, but doesn't mean it doesn't happen - there are plenty of pit bulls and pit bull crosses in the uk. Usually owned by the very people who shouldn't be owning them and bred by people who shouldn't be breeding anything.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> How do we know they aren't good specimens of the breed and don't have good temperaments?
> 
> Have I missed something??


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Is it a US forum? Sounds like the OP is from the UK, if it's the same person, then breeding pit bull types is not only illegal, but completely irresponsible as the dogs are at risk of being seized, and put to sleep.


It is a US forum but with an international membership.
I cant tell where the OP is, a couple of expressions sound more British than american (what is a tear away house?), maybe Australian, IDK. Could be American too, just using regionalisms Im not familiar with.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Hey sam1992ok, what ever happened to your two APBT that tied back on the 15th of July?
> 
> You know, the one you were on pitbull chat asking about how you could tell if the bitch was pregnant?


What, really? 

Well, this OP, who I think is a 'He', has been complaining that we're treating him like an irresponsible owner.

I wonder if he'd like to come back and explain this particular outrage.

OP, I have been wondering whether you've contacted the original owner at any point and asked why she told you the bitch had been spayed at six months old?


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Darth said:


> How do we know they aren't good specimens of the breed and don't have good temperaments?
> 
> Have I missed something??


Because the odds of someone who cant tell their arse from their elbow so-to-speak ending up with not one but two great specimens of a breed that we all know is vastly over bred and badly bred are slim to none.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> You are talking physically, at 2 the growth plates may not be closed but should still be ok. Mentally, though she is still a youngster - and a rescue/rehome settling into her new home. If she's not comfortable, then she may well hold onto the pups during labour and not be confident enough to give birth - this does happen and the risk is increased considerably because she has only just moved to a new home. In inexperienced hands the pups could die in utero and risk the bitch too. But no doubt you'll find some way of rubbishing that too.


take this anyway you wish - but you must lead a very, VERY sheltered life - and have zero experience in rescue - when an accidental mating of a 2 year old GSD entices you to propose such a radical solution as aborting the litter this late into the pregnancy.

Lets talk again when you dealt with the 6th litter of a 5 year old kept in a shed, alright?

If you do the above often enough then you KNOW why for some ONE unplanned litter of a 2 yr old pet isn't worth bunching your panties for.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Like many of the assistance charities (Guide dogs have had their own breeding programme for many years), they are now looking at breeding their own dogs. To train a working dog, whether police, assistance or any other dog takes a lot of time (and money) so they do not want to waste it on a dog from such a questionable past without health testing or temperament testing.


I know someone who shows and breeds, Guide dogs take puppies from her occasionally, so have to disagree that they breed all their own in centres


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> take this anyway you wish - but you must lead a very, VERY sheltered life - and have zero experience in rescue - when an accidental mating of a 2 year old GSD entices you to propose such a radical solution as aborting the litter this late into the pregnancy.
> 
> Lets talk again when you dealt with the 6th litter of a 5 year old kept in a shed, alright?
> 
> If you do the above often enough then you KNOW why for some ONE unplanned litter of a 2 yr old pet isn't worth bunching your panties for.


Why do you keep saying the bitch is into late pregnancy?

She isn't half way yet.

As she's already two years old, the best option, in my opinion, would be to spay her now.

GSDs have big litters. I can't believe that pups from non health tested Parents are going to be in demand. The chances are very real that a number of them will wind up in rescue. There is no future for them.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> take this anyway you wish - but you must lead a very, VERY sheltered life - and have zero experience in rescue - when an accidental mating of a 2 year old GSD entices you to propose such a radical solution as aborting the litter this late into the pregnancy.
> 
> Lets talk again when you dealt with the 6th litter of a 5 year old kept in a shed, alright?
> 
> If you do the above often enough then you KNOW why for some ONE unplanned litter of a 2 yr old pet isn't worth bunching your panties for.


The bitch isn't even half way through her pregnancy, she's not far into it! Generally about 62 days, so 28 days is less than half way through, 4 weeks was the time given by the OP.



Darth said:


> I know someone who shows and breeds, Guide dogs take puppies from her occasionally, so have to disagree that they breed all their own in centres


So because you know a breeder who occasionally lets some of her lines go into the guide dog programme, that makes the OP's story genuine to you?

Of course the GDBA will replenish their lines so they don't end up with all relatives, but I bet they also wouldn't take a pup in from a random mating between a rescue bitch and unknown dog.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

OMG are we really going to sit here and nit-pick that the dogs might be of good breeding and that the police sometimes do take dogs from private breedings?

HELLOOOOOOOO

Lets look at the posts the OP has actually made. Read them. Tell me theyre not full of total BS. Now look at the fact that just last month they were on another forum asking basically the same question about their pitbulls that had tied and how to tell if the bitch was pregnant. 

If anyone thinks this OP was genuinely surprised by an oops litter and genuinely wants whats best for their dogs, I have some ocean front property in Colorado for sale - cheap


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> OMG are we really going to sit here and nit-pick that the dogs might be of good breeding and that the police sometimes do take dogs from private breedings?
> 
> HELLOOOOOOOO
> 
> ...


Ooooh, how cheap?


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sweety said:


> Why do you keep saying the bitch is into late pregnancy?
> 
> She isn't half way yet.
> 
> ...


I thought the OP said the dogs mated over 4 weeks ago? That is halfway through the pregnancy. And it would be late, too late, for me. Most people, I'd say. Either you address such a situation ASAP ....or not at all. Wouldn't you?

The whole thread is likely all BS, anyway. Hopefully it is merely someone bored on a cloudy Sunday and up to some mischief.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

ouesi said:


> If anyone thinks this OP was genuinely surprised by an oops litter and genuinely wants whats best for their dogs, I have some ocean front property in Colorado for sale - cheap


Is there a view of Mount Rushmore?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> Is there a view of Mount Rushmore?


Oooooooh, that'd be fab!!!


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So because you know a breeder who occasionally lets some of her lines go into the guide dog programme, that makes the OP's story genuine to you?


I didn't say that did I?

I merely stated not all guide dogs are bred in their own centres.

As requested in previous threads, please read my posts prior to replying. It's such a waste of everyone's time defending something that hasn't been said.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sam1992ok said:


> *Around 4 weeks ago*, I found traces of blood in the kitchen on the floor in droplets, an hour after I had gone to bed that same night I heard a lot of yelping from one of my dogs, rushed downstairs and sure enough they had tied.





Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I thought the OP said the dogs mated over 4 weeks ago? That is halfway through the pregnancy. And it would be late, too late, for me. Most people, I'd say. Either you address such a situation ASAP ....or not at all. Wouldn't you?
> 
> The whole thread is likely all BS, anyway. Hopefully it is merely someone bored on a cloudy Sunday and up to some mischief.


Around four weeks ago, so could be less than, a bit more than, but still only half way through a pregnancy.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

No, no view of Mount Rushmore, sorry. But give me a minute and Ill spin a tale about how you can see it if you look at a certain angle off the back porch.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Hey sam1992ok, what ever happened to your two APBT that tied back on the 15th of July?
> 
> You know, the one you were on pitbull chat asking about how you could tell if the bitch was pregnant?


Wow this thread moved on a bit while I was out!!
So, OP has posted on other forums too.. Crikey. Not enough information given ey


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> I didn't say that did I?
> 
> I merely stated not all guide dogs are bred in their own centres.
> 
> As requested in previous threads, please read my posts prior to replying. It's such a waste of everyone's time defending something that hasn't been said.


The implication from your post is that places such as the police force or GBDA would accept pups from a litter such as this, and that's just not really true.

As for your request, if you aren't happy reading the responses people put to your posts, there's an answer. It's a free world


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

QueenMoo said:


> Wow this thread moved on a bit while I was out!!
> So, OP has posted on other forums too.. Crikey. Not enough information given ey


That'll teach you to try and lead a life outside this forum.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> That'll teach you to try and lead a life outside this forum.


There is a life outside forums?


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The implication from your post is that places such as the police force or GBDA would accept pups from a litter such as this, and that's just not really true.


There you go assuming again.....I never mentioned the police force.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

In my experience, (not saying it doesn't happen), it would be extremely unlikely indeed, if even possible, for a bitch to be mated on the first day of her season.

The OP claims he had only noticed blood on the day these dogs mated and only noticed the bitch had a swollen vulva after the event.

I think it far more likely the bitch had been in season for, probably, the best part of two weeks.

Two months ago, he bred, or attempted to breed a litter of Pitbulls, then rescues a female GSD as a 'playmate' for his male GSD.

If he's already bred dogs, I think we can assume he knows very well the signs of a bitch being in season.

Are we expected to believe the male had shown not even a passing interest in the bitch and then, suddenly, leaps on her and mates her?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There is a life outside forums?


Well, depends on whether you believe the legends or not.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> That'll teach you to try and lead a life outside this forum.


Buggar! Lesson learnt! 



Sleeping_Lion said:


> There is a life outside forums?


There was.. not anymore. I'm stuck here now :lol:

I am thoroughly amused that OP has had two locked threads on the pitbull forum with regards to breeding and bullsh*t..


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Darth said:


> I know someone who shows and breeds, Guide dogs take puppies from her occasionally, so have to disagree that they breed all their own in centres


I never said they breed ALL their own, merely that they are now using their own breeding programmes where they used to rely mainly on donations.
I also know people who have donated pups but there are from approved health tested litters.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Sweety said:


> In my experience, (not saying it doesn't happen), it would be extremely unlikely indeed, if even possible, for a bitch to be mated on the first day of her season.
> 
> The OP claims he had only noticed blood on the day these dogs mated and only noticed the bitch had a swollen vulva after the event.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't believe OP - for he has asked on a different forum how to work out if a bitch is in season and the good old; 'My dog got mated by accident' line..


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## 24Paws (Aug 9, 2014)

Hi...

Surely the best thing for the bitch would be an emergency spay so she doesn't have to go through birth of dead puppies she's likely to pine for? I see the mental state of the bitch mentioned a lot. Surely it would be better for her to be anaesthetised and then have the pups removed and euthanized, as opposed to killing them in the womb and then having her go through a stillborn whelp anyway...

I'm a little confused as to how old the dog is, how far along in the pregnancy she is and where the OP lives. This is just a thought that came to me and hadn't been mentioned by anybody else yet.

I want to assure everyone that responsible handling of intact dogs does exist.  I have five intact dogs of both genders between 7 and 2 years old, and one spayed 9 year old bitch, and I've personally never understood how an accident litter can occur. It's not that difficult to keep dogs apart when need be -- especially if they're living inside your home with you. All of my dogs live together in the house. 

I, like many of you, personally don't think the OP is telling a very plausible tale, but if I could get some input re: my theory on spaying this late (half way?) in the pregnancy being less physically and mentally problematic for the dog than a mismate injection, I'd be interested to read it.  

I'm a long time lurker of petforums.co.uk, used to be a fairly active member of all-breed dog forums like this one a few years ago and this was one I kept UTD with even after I stopped contributing as much. I'm on my phone rn but will re-introduce myself better later on.  Just felt rude to pop up out of the woodwork without a bit of an explanation.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> There you go assuming again.....I never mentioned the police force.


Oh you are funny, I mean, why assume you would understand what imply means!



24Paws said:


> Hi...
> 
> Surely the best thing for the bitch would be an emergency spay so she doesn't have to go through birth of dead puppies she's likely to pine for? I see the mental state of the bitch mentioned a lot. Surely it would be better for her to be anaesthetised and then have the pups removed and euthanized, as opposed to killing them in the womb and then having her go through a stillborn whelp anyway...
> 
> ...


Oh there are lots of responsible dog owners, it's just a shame that there are irresponsible owners, who are happy to allow things like this to happen. Accidents can and do happen, the example I gave of my good friend who forgot to lock the back door, and one of her other dogs opened it giving access outside for her boy to escape and catch her older bitch. But responsible dog owners of both sexes seem to manage perfectly well at stopping the vast majority of accidents from happening.

Welcome to the forum btw


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Around four weeks ago, so could be less than, a bit more than, but still only half way through a pregnancy.


So if YOU waited that long with one of your girls, umm-ing and ahh-ing, you'd still go ahead with aborting the litter?

Forgive my scepticism but I'm going to go out on a limb and say no, you wouldn't. Not after waiting this long. At 4 weeks we aren't talking about preventing fertilized eggs from developing further, but about fetuses. I don't care how pro-choice someone is ( and I am) and "sensible" someone is, there is a morally quantifiable difference between the two.

The criterias and judgments are always different when it is our own dog. What we would or wouldn't do if it was our dogs and our pups. People wouldn't opt to abort their own pups at that stage.

THAT'S what I have an issue with.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> So if YOU waited that long with one of your girls, umm-ing and ahh-ing, you'd still go ahead with aborting the litter?
> 
> Forgive my scepticism but I'm going to go out on a limb and say no, you wouldn't. Not after waiting this long. At 4 weeks we aren't talking about preventing fertilized eggs from developing further, but about fetuses. I don't care how pro-choice someone is ( and I am) and "sensible" someone is, there is a morally quantifiable difference between the two.
> 
> ...


SLs bitches wouldnt end up accidentally bred


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> So if YOU waited that long with one of your girls, umm-ing and ahh-ing, you'd still go ahead with aborting the litter?
> 
> Forgive my scepticism but I'm going to go out on a limb and say no, you wouldn't. Not after waiting this long. At 4 weeks we aren't talking about preventing fertilized eggs from developing further, but about fetuses. I don't care how pro-choice someone is ( and I am) and "sensible" someone is, there is a morally quantifiable difference between the two.
> 
> ...


If I had brought in a rescue dog, who happened to be entire, who happened to catch one of my girls, then yes, I would try Alizin, and if that didn't work, I would have her spayed at the cost of me not having a litter at all from either of my two youngsters. I am not going to bring a litter of unplanned pups into the world when it isn't needed. As much as I love my two youngsters, and would like to take a litter from each of them, it is only going to be after all the health testing, and seeing how they've fully matured, Zasa is still maturing mentally, Rhuna has turned into one of the nicest dogs I've come across, she's a real credit to her breeder, and pending health tests I will hopefully take a litter from her next year. That said, if I owned a dog I planned to use in a breeding programme, and he caught one of my girls when they were fully mature, and even if I hadn't got all the health tests done on both of them, I might consider allowing the litter to come to full term, but that's only if some of the health tests were in place for the bitch, and I could do what else needed doing on the dog pretty quickly, and get a good idea of hips/elbows from the vet taking the plates. But the the likelihood of that happening is pretty remote, I'd say zero.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> So if YOU waited that long with one of your girls, umm-ing and ahh-ing, you'd still go ahead with aborting the litter?
> 
> Forgive my scepticism but I'm going to go out on a limb and say no, you wouldn't. Not after waiting this long. At 4 weeks we aren't talking about preventing fertilized eggs from developing further, but about fetuses. I don't care how pro-choice someone is ( and I am) and "sensible" someone is, there is a morally quantifiable difference between the two.
> 
> ...


I kept three entire PRT males with three unspayed PRT bitches for many years.

I had one accidental mating in all those years.

A friend of one of my Sons let himself into the house unannounced and brought an in season bitch, who was being kept separate, into the lounge with her entire Dad. Terriers tend not to mess about and by the time I discovered them, it was too late. We were at the Vet within the hour for the Mismate jab.

I don't believe for one moment the OP has been "Uhming and Ahhing" for four weeks. I believe this whole thing was planned and that's why he's so resistant to being told about alternatives to allowing this travesty of a mating to proceed through pregnancy.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

OP is in the UK, has a *staffy* that he calls a pitbull on forums


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> OP is in the UK, has a *staffy* that he calls a pitbull on forums


Ah staffy's are wonderful


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> OP is in the UK, has a *staffy* that he calls a pitbull on forums


And now they're *accidentally* breeding GSD's.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And now they're *accidentally* breeding GSD's.


Hopefully all crap!


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sweety said:


> I kept three entire PRT males with three unspayed PRT bitches for many years.
> 
> I had one accidental mating in all those years.
> 
> ...


Sure.

That's what any of us....ok, MOST of us....with intact animals would do. Think "bugger", schlepp the female dog to the vet prontissimo for the jabs - end of.

But if ANY of the OP's tale is true, she didn't because the dog's previous owner told her the bitch had been already spayed. She allegedly even has a scar in the right place.

Would you take a spayed bitch to the vet for a mismate injection? Me - no. By the time I'd twig that something is up, I'd call the previous owner all names under the sun ......and then make sure that the bitch has a safe delivery and the pups the best possible upbringing. It would make zero odds what breed or crossbreed the dam is, dito the sire, whether they were health tested, not health tested, it's life you are responsible for and you do your best.

Its almost as if pups from untested parents don't "deserve" to be born. Which flies straight in the face of absolutely everything I believe in. And I will NEVER befriend myself with this view point.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

QueenMoo said:


> Hopefully all crap!


Unfortunately, it's the only part of their story that's probably true.


----------



## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And now they're *accidentally* breeding GSD's.


Well, IDK... This is the first mention of GSDs I can find, and the questions about how to tell if shes pregnant are very similar to what he asked about the pitbull bitch. And the timing is identical. The pitbulls mated the 15th (or 13th) of July, which is about 4 weeks ago.

Im wondering (hoping) there is only one bitch that mated, not two.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Sure.
> 
> That's what any of us....ok, MOST of us....with intact animals would do. Think "bugger", schlepp the female dog to the vet prontissimo for the jabs - end of.
> 
> ...


read thread with interest , as always i am truly disgusted. you work with rescue and advocate this , i'd like to know which flaming one!!
and yes , i would mismate and wouldnt loose a minutes sleep over what you thought!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Sure.
> 
> That's what any of us....ok, MOST of us....with intact animals would do. Think "bugger", schlepp the female dog to the vet prontissimo for the jabs - end of.
> 
> ...


It's not as simple as pups not deserving to be born. You're putting the welfare of a litter of pups that may or may not be healthy before a bitch who has already had two years of a life where she's been passed on at least once. The priority should be the bitch.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Sure.
> 
> That's what any of us....ok, MOST of us....with intact animals would do. Think "bugger", schlepp the female dog to the vet prontissimo for the jabs - end of.
> 
> ...


Well, not strictly accurate, I'm afraid.

The OP actually saw the dogs mate and tie, so at that point, he obviously knew the female wasn't spayed.

He still chose, however, not to seek the advice of his vet at that point.

Whether you agree with termination of a pregnancy or not, the fact remains that this whole story, as an accident, is just a little far fetched.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> OP is in the UK, has a *staffy* that he calls a pitbull on forums


So this other mating was between Staffies?

Well, there just aren't nearly enough unwanted Staffies in this Country. What we really need are more.

That's just so depressing.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> *I'm guessing this thread is in fact about the "pitbulls" and the OP has tried to pick a less contentious breed to avoid awkward questions.*
> 
> Either that or it's all b******s. We can hope anyway.......


Thats kind of where Im leaning too.

Which makes things even more complicated - the legalities for one, but also the male hes breeding could definitely be a piebald and Im not making any bets that this guy knows the first thing about coat color genetics, so now theres the worry about sensory defects.

Just makes you want to bang your head against a brick wall sometimes.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's not as simple as pups not deserving to be born. You're putting the welfare of a litter of pups that may or may not be healthy before a bitch who has already had two years of a life where she's been passed on at least once. The priority should be the bitch.


The priority IS the pregnant bitch.

Which is why the owner should do everything imaginable to ensure she has a healthy delivery and post whelping period. One can't...or perhaps shouldn't...always go back, but look ahead and see how one can make the best of a less than ideal situation.

Sure the pups COULD have health issues. Or they may be as healthy as an ox. There are oodles of dogs from fully health tested parents who fall very wide of the mark health wise. Ortho problems, digestive problems, skin problems...never mind the temperament issues.

I get why people are upset. There are people like BessieDog who do everything right and end up with no pups and the flipside are people who don't give any thought to diligent breeding who end up with an unplanned litter. Which may be both plentiful and perfectly healthy. Doesn't seem fair. It isn't. Still doesn't mean that those pups don't deserve to be born.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> The priority IS the pregnant bitch.
> 
> Which is why the owner should do everything imaginable to ensure she has a healthy delivery and post whelping period. One can't...or perhaps shouldn't...always go back, but look ahead and see how one can make the best of a less than ideal situation.
> 
> ...


Well, I think there are many things worse for a dog than to not be born in the first place.

When making that judgement, I think you have to be realistic about what the future holds for the pups and, in this case, the outlook for them really isn't good.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> The priority IS the pregnant bitch.
> 
> Which is why the owner should do everything imaginable to ensure she has a healthy delivery and post whelping period. One can't...or perhaps shouldn't...always go back, but look ahead and see how one can make the best of a less than ideal situation.
> 
> ...


And the best for thing for this girl, who has been passed from pillar to post, I hesitate to use the word rescued as that would imply the current owner has provided a safe haven for this girl, which they obviously haven't, is to not put her through whelping at all, but have her spayed and prevent the pregnancy from going ahead. She's too young, the OP hasn't said if they have any history on her past health or temperament, she's already got a scar according to the OP, so if not spayed, what was that for? Did she injure herself, or was there something else that needed operating on?

Allowing this girl to go through having a litter of pups is, to me, cruel. Gambling that the pups are gonna be healthy and end up in a great home for all of their lives is also cruel. Simple solution is to spay the bitch.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Whether the pups deserve to be born or not is really totally irrelevant and anthropomorphism to a fault. What does that even mean, deserve to be born?

The bigger picture is that were most likely talking about a breed that is already way too overrepresented in rescue, pups will not end up in a good home, may even have sensory defects.

How anyone with even a modicum of experience in rescue can think that it is a good thing for this litter to happen is beyond my scope of comprehension.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Oh you are funny, I mean, why assume you would understand what imply means!


I know you imply you know a lot about dog breeding when in fact you have only bred one litter.....it hardly stands you in good stead to give a knowledgeable input when replying with advice


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> I know you imply you know a lot about dog breeding when in fact you have only bred one litter.....it hardly stands you in good stead to give a knowledgeable input when replying with advice


Oh joy, the old excuse of I've bred a lot so I know it all. Yep, you believe what you want to.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

sam1992ok said:


> Hi all.
> 
> Before I start this question I want to assure everyone who is going to jump to a conclusion that this situation has come about due to a genuine mis understanding.
> 
> ...


Okay, done sleuthing (googling the username).

According to posts and pictures on the interwebz, OP has a 15 or 16 month old male pitbull/staffie named Bruno who appears to be piebald.
In April he got another pitbull/staffie female named Bonnie. She was not quite 4 months at the time. Definitely piebald.

OP does appear to really love his dogs, they are in good condition, lots of snuggly shots, they are definitely cute pups who appear to be well loved.

I can only hope the OP reads though this thread in the right frame of mind, learns from it, and does right by his dogs. I hope, I hope....


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Okay, done sleuthing (googling the username).
> 
> According to posts and pictures on the interwebz, OP has a 15 or 16 month old male pitbull/staffie named Bruno who appears to be piebald.
> In April he got another pitbull/staffie female named Bonnie. She was not quite 4 months at the time. Definitely piebald.
> ...


If the bitch was four months old in April, is this the same one who was mated in July? If so, she must have been in her first season and only seven months old?

I really hope not.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Are we talking GSD's or staffies/pitbulls now? There seems to be some confusion as to whether the OP owns both of these breeds, or is s/he talking about GSD's to sort of throw us off the scent?


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Sweety said:


> If the bitch was four months old in April, is this the same one who was mated in July? *If so, she must have been in her first season and only seven months old?*
> 
> I really hope not.


Thats what Im afraid of....


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Darth said:


> I know you imply you know a lot about dog breeding when in fact you have only bred one litter.....it hardly stands you in good stead to give a knowledgeable input when replying with advice


some of us also have terribly long memories , if there's anything SL does know , its about things going wrong with the most healthiest of bitches.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Nagini said:


> some of us also have terribly long memories , if there's anything SL does know , its about things going wrong with the most healthiest of bitches.


Thank you.

FWIW I've only ever owned dogs for as long as I've had Indie, who is nine on the 29 of this month, and two of the breeders I admire the most have only ever had two litters in over 20 years of ownership, one of those being the breeder of my flatcoat bitch. Experience and knowledge isn't just gained through breeding lots of your own litters, as some seem to think.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Oh joy, the old excuse of I've bred a lot so I know it all.


I don't profess to know it all, that wouldn't be possible, but I would consider, having bred more than one litter I have slightly more experience than someone who has only bred one.

That one litter being born by Caesarian doesn't really give true experience of a bitch giving birth and the breeder having experience.

From what I remember panic set it before the bitch had a chance to deliver......


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Are we talking GSD's or staffies/pitbulls now? There seems to be some confusion as to whether the OP owns both of these breeds, or is s/he talking about GSD's to sort of throw us off the scent?


Well, apparently, the OP posted a while ago on a Pitbull forum, saying his Pit/Staffy girl had been mated by his dog.

The mating was four weeks ago.

Now, suddenly, he has a GSD bitch, mated four weeks ago by his dog?

It's a huge coincidence. Two bitches, both accidentally mated and both four weeks ago.

As Ouesi said earlier, has he just changed the breed when coming here in case he got flack for breeding Pitbull crosses?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> I don't profess to know it all, that wouldn't be possible, but I would consider, having bred more than one litter I have slightly more experience than someone who has only bred one.
> 
> That one litter being born by Caesarian doesn't really give true experience of a bitch giving birth and the breeder having experience.
> 
> From what I remember panic set it before the bitch had a chance to deliver......


Oh really, were you here in my kitchen? You are so full of rubbish, and if you really remember, I posted the x-ray of the pup stuck that would have meant Tau could never have given birth to the pups naturally, and would have died if she hadn't been sectioned. Shows how good your memory really is!

And since you seem to live in my house, as you obviously know exactly how many litters I've seen, how many mating decisions I've been involved with, would you also care to enlighten me about that? The answer is you don't know me, and you haven't a clue about the experience I've had with breeding, both the decision making process, and the actual physical hands on bits, so please don't make assumptions.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

This thread is beyond a joke now.............


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Darth said:


> I don't profess to know it all, that wouldn't be possible, but I would consider, having bred more than one litter I have slightly more experience than someone who has only bred one.
> 
> That one litter being born by Caesarian doesn't really give true experience of a bitch giving birth and the breeder having experience.
> 
> *From what I remember panic set it before the bitch had a chance to deliver......*


:thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

How would you even know anyway? Were you there? And if you were there and knew better, why didnt you help?

Even if it were true, what would be the point of even saying something like that?

Im guessing you just dont know, and are sinking to a new low.... Ugh...


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

When it comes down to breeding experience, numbers of litters bred isn't really relevant.

I bred a number of litters over many years. I did encounter a few problems but, in the main, my terriers delivered on their due date, naturally and with no assistance or problems.

I never, for instance, had a bitch needing a C Section, so I have no personal experience of that.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Oh really, were you here in my kitchen? You are so full of rubbish, and if you really remember, I posted the x-ray of the pup stuck that would have meant Tau could never have given birth to the pups naturally, and would have died if she hadn't been sectioned. Shows how good your memory really is!
> 
> And since you seem to live in my house, as you obviously know exactly how many litters I've seen, how many mating decisions I've been involved with, would you also care to enlighten me about that? The answer is you don't know me, and you haven't a clue about the experience I've had with breeding, both the decision making process, and the actual physical hands on bits, so please don't make assumptions.


I seem to remember the thread was either locked or removed.....there was quite a lot of unpleasantness, but like you correctly point out, my memory isn't what it used to be.

What I do remember is that you were the one in this thread who got cranky commenting on me not knowing what imply is, quite a personal comment and not at all associated with the thread.

I have no idea what experience you have, it may be that you just repeat what you've read elsewhere, I neither know nor care.....


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## Badwolfe (Jul 19, 2014)

Seems to me the OP got exactly what they wanted out of this thread - poked a stick into the beehive and vigorously waggled it then sat back and enjoyed the show......


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> I seem to remember the thread was either locked or removed.....there was quite a lot of unpleasantness, but like you correctly point out, my memory isn't what it used to be.
> 
> What I do remember is that you were the one in this thread who got cranky commenting on me not knowing what imply is, quite a personal comment and not at all associated with the thread.
> 
> I have no idea what experience you have, it may be that you just repeat what you've read elsewhere, I neither know nor care.....


The thread was locked and removed because another member took it upon themselves, after offering help and advice, to then turn round once the litter was on the ground, to say I shouldn't have gone ahead in the first place, and then proceeded elsewhere to ask people to post lies about the planning of the litter, and my dogs.

I've told you before, if you don't like what I post, use the ignore function. I post openly and am honest about my dogs and myself, I wouldn't know you from Adam, and that's unlikely to change, but your comments about the litter Tau had were really uncalled for and absolutely out of order. I don't know your dogs, as you choose to keep information about them off forum for your own reasons, but don't think just because I post openly about my dogs, myself, and share any information freely, that you can make assumptions about my dogs or me. Simple fact is you don't know me in real life, and you really probably never will.

Finally, don't start with the sarcasm if you can't take it back.


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## LOLcats (Jun 21, 2014)

So by your logic Darth, Puppy Farmers must be the gurus of the breeding world, you know, seeing as they have the rich experience of so many litters and all :skep:

Unlikely OP will be back, feel very  for the young girl. Gets 'rescued' by someone who puts their own wants before her needs :frown5:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

8tansox said:


> This thread is beyond a joke now.............


Very true.

So, predictably, we have a poster who has come on telling a tale which turns out to be not the innocent mistake they made out.

So what do we have. Someone breeding a young, immature pitbull with their pitbull cross which may or may not have been an accident but that is irrelevant because the knew a mating had taken place. In the UK this is illegal as is owning entire pitbulls or their type so I guess that is why they have said they were 'Alsations'. I expect the police would be interested in this thread. I'm no computer wiz but I believe people can be tracked by their IP numbers.

Thanks to Detective Ouesi we also know that they are well looked after (probably by the PDSA) as the OP goes on about having contacted a private vet (my original thought was aren't all vets private before I remembered the PDSA). I hope the OP realises that the PDSA will NOT under any circumstances treat a bitch that has been used for breeding.

I doubt we will see them again, although Darth has befriended them so I'm sure they will help as will the 'private vet'.

And so another irresponsible breeding that is likely to end in tears goes ahead....

sigh......

Oh, and Hopeattheendofthetunnel

You may think keeping this pregnancy going is the right thing to do, however, if they are pitbulls the chances are they will be pts at some time once born anyway. Is that what you want?


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## Badwolfe (Jul 19, 2014)

rocco33 said:


> Very true.
> 
> So, predictably, we have a poster who has come on telling a tale which turns out to be not the innocent mistake they made out.
> 
> ...


Well if the truth does turn out to be that its pitbulls rest assured it wont be the OP who ends up in tears - They will have a large pool of 'chavs' on standby ready to snap up the puppies because boy dont they make you look 'macho'


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Darth said:


> I don't profess to know it all, that wouldn't be possible, but I would consider, having bred more than one litter I have slightly more experience than someone who has only bred one.
> 
> That one litter being born by Caesarian doesn't really give true experience of a bitch giving birth and the breeder having experience.
> 
> From what I remember panic set it before the bitch had a chance to deliver......


i have zilch breeding experience where dogs are concerned , i do know what is the right thing to do by the bitch concerned and it certainly isnt having a litter , especially if previous calculations are right and she was mated during her first season , not only is it unethical but downright cruel and im amazed a breeder with your 'experience' is saying something like this is actually okay.:frown5:


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Sweety said:


> In my experience, (not saying it doesn't happen), it would be extremely unlikely indeed, if even possible, for a bitch to be mated on the first day of her season.
> 
> The OP claims he had only noticed blood on the day these dogs mated and only noticed the bitch had a swollen vulva after the event.
> 
> ...


WHAT?!?! Are you saying that isn't how dogs mate?! But But... All the threads I haver read... all the accidental litters... the dogs just know and mate within 2 seconds and then they have pups instantly... even walking In the park they get mated and pregnant... I just thought that's how it was...  :biggrin5:



ouesi said:


> Okay, done sleuthing (googling the username).
> 
> According to posts and pictures on the interwebz, OP has a 15 or 16 month old male pitbull/staffie named Bruno who appears to be piebald.
> In April he got another pitbull/staffie female named Bonnie. She was not quite 4 months at the time. Definitely piebald.
> ...


Did a bit of research, the OP is a 20 year old male from hull, I very much doubt he knows about health testing, and he seems to have 1 pitbull, and that would mean he has a pregnant 8 month old girl on his hands  

How can anyone say that is right to go head with a pitbull/staffy mating in the uk to a 8 month old girl  What the world needs is more pitbull.staffys, I don't think 

Staffy health tests:

Staffordshire Bull Terriers U.K. Breed Council of G.B.and N.Ireland

pitbull health tests:

http://www.realpitbull.com/files/BCOE.pdf


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The thread was locked and removed because another member took it upon themselves, after offering help and advice, to then turn round once the litter was on the ground, to say I shouldn't have gone ahead in the first place, and then proceeded elsewhere to ask people to post lies about the planning of the litter, and my dogs.


Oh right........


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

Taylorbaby said:


> Did a bit of research, the OP is a 20 year old male from hull, I very much doubt he knows about health testing, and he seems to have 1 pitbull, and that would mean he has a pregnant 8 month old girl on his hands
> 
> How can anyone say that is right to go head with a pitbull/staffy mating in the uk to a 8 month old girl  What the world needs is more pitbull.staffys, I don't think


they are into snakes too , on about breeding their boa. lets see how they feel when they have 20 to 40 young to feed they can't find homes for  hope they live in a nice big house with plenty of room for vivs


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> Oh right........


If your memory was still good enough to remember the thread accurately, you would have remembered I copied and pasted a whole conversation from the owner of a stud dog I'd queried about possibly using, who said they'd spoken to me on the phone and told me I couldn't use their dog. I never spoke to them on the phone, and in fact messaged them to say I had chosen to go with another dog, as I wanted the Rocheby lines further forward in the pedigree. I was later told, off this forum, by someone else, they'd been messaged by the member in question, to try and dig up any dirt, and post on here, denigrating the litter.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> Oh, and Hopeattheendofthetunnel
> 
> You may think keeping this pregnancy going is the right thing to do, however, if they are pitbulls the chances are they will be pts at some time once born anyway. Is that what you want?


Yes, that is my sole raison d'etre.

To have as many neonate pups euthanized as possible.

HOW did you know?

No, correction. That is ONE of my missions. The other one being to spew as much judgmental poison at fellow dog owners as I can. And call it "education" and "welfare concern". Most brilliant ruse ever.

I'm not doing all that well with the latter as yet but, as luck would have it, there are excellent teachers here. I am taking comprehensive notes.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Yes, that is my sole raison d'etre.
> 
> To have as many neonate pups euthanized as possible.
> 
> ...


That's a bit below the belt, just because you have a different opinion about the *best* course of action.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That's a bit below the belt, just because you have a different opinion about the *best* course of action.


Agreed. 
SL, as much as you and I have gone most definitely not seen eye to eye on many topics, it has never felt icky like this (to use HATEOTTs word).

I am the first to say I will argue passionately for what I believe to be right, but Im really disappointed in some of the posts on this thread - and Im not just talking about the OP.

Actually I almost feel bad for the OP, having their thread derailed. *Almost* - when Im not giggling at the prospect of the local police force being interested in his upcoming litter. Im sure!


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

WHOA!

That was A LOT of pages to read!


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That's a bit below the belt, just because you have a different opinion about the *best* course of action.


Not true.

I have no issue with rocco's viewpoint. S/he sees it one way, I perceive it differently.

It is the way it is expressed. The specific way it is ALWAYS expressed. Never mitigated by an ounce of benevolence towards someone whose dog had an unplanned mating.

Still, she'd be a hit working for planned parenthood. The birth rate of unplanned pregnancies going ahead would plummet to non-existent levels. And we can't have all those illegitimate kids from lacksadaisical parents not using contraception. What would the world be coming to? Having actual children! BEFORE one knows everything there is to know about births AND parenting! Likely none of those hapless parents are health tested either. I need to lie down with a cool flannel....


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Hanwombat said:


> WHOA!
> 
> That was A LOT of pages to read!


Have a goat then:


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Not true.
> 
> I have no issue with rocco's viewpoint. S/he sees it one way, I perceive it differently.
> 
> ...


Why can't you discuss or debate a topic without making personal attacks on individual members?

You come across as very bitter when people don't agree with you.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Not true.
> 
> I have no issue with rocco's viewpoint. S/he sees it one way, I perceive it differently.
> 
> ...


You can't compare human pregnancy to dogs I'm afraid, dogs don't ask to be bred from, and the way the information has panned out that these two dogs could be of a banned type is proving more and more that this pregnancy shouldn't be allowed to continue. It was the wording of your post that seemed a bit harsh, you obviously aren't going to agree, and fair enough, but just accept that others are going to have a different view point to you, and will always recommend terminating as early as possible, or even if late, and the odds are not going to be stacked in the odds of the pups, particularly if the bitch has already been through the mill, spaying is an option.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Not true.
> 
> I have no issue with rocco's viewpoint. S/he sees it one way, I perceive it differently.
> 
> ...


My bullshit radar is pretty accurate as has been proved by others on this thread.

That said, I say it as it is, without emotion. If you can't handle that then put me on ignore. Something I will be employing for the first time myself.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sweety said:


> Why can't you discuss or debate a topic without making personal attacks on individual members?
> 
> You come across as very bitter when people don't agree with you.


I do?

I better delve into some serious chocolate to sweeten myself up.

Thanks! That was the "sweeten your life" tip, I needed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Agreed.
> SL, as much as you and I have gone most definitely not seen eye to eye on many topics, it has never felt icky like this (to use HATEOTTs word).
> 
> I am the first to say I will argue passionately for what I believe to be right, but Im really disappointed in some of the posts on this thread - and Im not just talking about the OP.
> ...


I definitely don't always agree with you or any other member on this forum, but hopefully remain civil, for the most part. I do think this thread has gone way off topic, partly myself as someone else chose to bring my own dogs into the argument and I will not stand by and see people post inaccuracies about tehm. Maybe the mods should close it now, I don't think anything further can be gained from the way it's going.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> *You can't compare human pregnancy to dogs I'm afraid*, dogs don't ask to be bred from, and the way the information has panned out that these two dogs could be of a banned type is proving more and more that this pregnancy shouldn't be allowed to continue. It was the wording of your post that seemed a bit harsh, you obviously aren't going to agree, and fair enough, but just accept that others are going to have a different view point to you, and will always recommend terminating as early as possible, or even if late, and the odds are not going to be stacked in the odds of the pups, particularly if the bitch has already been through the mill, spaying is an option.


No kidding! If we could I would have sold my human pups" to the highest bidder a long time ago! 

I kid, I kid....

But I am toying with the idea of microchipping them


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> No kidding! If we could I would have sold my human pups" to the highest bidder a long time ago!
> 
> I kid, I kid....
> 
> But I am toying with the idea of microchipping them


I'm afraid I wouldn't even swap my ratbag for a human *pup*


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You can't compare human pregnancy to dogs I'm afraid, dogs don't ask to be bred from, and the way the information has panned out that these two dogs could be of a banned type is proving more and more that this pregnancy shouldn't be allowed to continue. It was the wording of your post that seemed a bit harsh, you obviously aren't going to agree, and fair enough, but just accept that others are going to have a different view point to you, and will always recommend terminating as early as possible, or even if late, and the odds are not going to be stacked in the odds of the pups, particularly if the bitch has already been through the mill, spaying is an option.




Nobody knew the dogs were Pitbulls. Underage pitbulls, no less.

The OP stated a 2 yr old GSD which she believed to be spayed and who mated with her other GSD.

That's what the thread was about. For the overwhelming duration of it.

You and some others feel the pups from THAT mating would best be aborted halfway through the pregnancy. I didn't.

Meanwhile, I don't think there is a pregnant GSD. Nor a pregnant underage APBT. There is, most likely, someone with a second user account having a real chuckle for the storm in the teacup they created.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Nobody knew the dogs were Pitbulls. Underage pitbulls, no less.
> 
> The OP stated a 2 yr old GSD which she believed to be spayed and who mated with her other GSD.
> 
> ...


But surely we're allowed to have different opinions about this? I've not been directly involved with rescue, but know plenty of folks who are, and helped with fund raising in the past. The last thing any of them would want to see is yet more pups either from GSD's of unknown heritage, or possible banned breed types. You may find that unacceptable, we all have different ideas on what is acceptable and what isn't. From my point of view as a *breeder*, and yes, just the one litter, but then quality is what counts to me, and I have to say with all the unwanted dogs out there, all the dogs being put to sleep, yet another litter of pups from either of the possible *truths* behind this thread, to me, just makes me feel sad.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Nobody knew the dogs were Pitbulls. Underage pitbulls, no less.
> 
> *The OP stated a 2 yr old GSD which she believed to be spayed and who mated with her other GSD. *
> 
> ...


At which point several of us has our BS-o-meter go off and posted accordingly. 
To which you took extreme umbrage for whatever reason.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Nobody knew the dogs were Pitbulls. Underage pitbulls, no less.
> 
> *The OP *stated a 2 yr old GSD which *she* believed to be spayed and who mated with *her* other GSD.
> 
> ...


Well, the OP does actually state she is a HE! Perhaps you need the posts more thoroughly.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)




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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But surely we're allowed to have different opinions about this? I've not been directly involved with rescue, but know plenty of folks who are, and helped with fund raising in the past. The last thing any of them would want to see is yet more pups either from GSD's of unknown heritage, or possible banned breed types. You may find that unacceptable, we all have different ideas on what is acceptable and what isn't. From my point of view as a *breeder*, and yes, just the one litter, but then quality is what counts to me, and I have to say with all the unwanted dogs out there, all the dogs being put to sleep, yet another litter of pups from either of the possible *truths* behind this thread, to me, just makes me feel sad.


Of course we can have different opinions about it.

We did.

One camp argued their position, the others theirs.

Whoever reads it afterwards, once the dust has settled, will form their conclusion accordingly. As to the seemingly forgone conclusion from the outset that those pups would inevitably end up behaviourally and physically challenged and in rescue ....there is no possible way to categorically deduce that from the information given. I found the discussion on which pups should and shouldn't be born quite illuminating.

But since it was apparently all confabulation, it really doesn't matter. And if it was true I wish the dogs all the best.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Of course we can have different opinions about it.
> 
> We did.
> 
> ...


Given a choice, all pups should live, and should have a great lifestyle, in a fabulous home, where they are well looked after, and never develop problems. Now, do you think that's really what will always happen?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Of course we can have different opinions about it.
> 
> We did.
> 
> ...


We have a huge problem in this Country with unwanted dogs. Many are dying every day.

So long as BYBs carry on with their casual, ill advised and indiscriminate breeding, the problem is only going to get worse.

I have rehomed Jack Russells for many years, but more and more these days, I am being asked to help rehome Staffies.

No matter what the breed, a big reality check is needed. Those who breed for money, with no regard whatsoever for the resulting pups or their future are going to carry on.

All we can hope is that maybe, someone thinking of breeding from non health tested stock, may read a thread such as this and think again.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Given a choice, all pups should live, and should have a great lifestyle, in a fabulous home, where they are well looked after, and never develop problems. Now, do you think that's really what will always happen?


Don't take this the wrong way SL, but we are beating a dead horse now.

For me the thread has run its course, I said what I had to say, I stand behind what I said and, yes, I believe aborting pups in mid pregnancy in a healthy bitch is morally supremely questionable. Moreover, I believe pups should get a shot at life regardless on how and by whom they were bred. Fortunately, a great many do, they live healthy and adored lives because their adopters don't care about what should have been done, they just do what THEY can. Rescue shelters are NOT overflowing with puppies and to say so as a deterrant is simply wrong.

I am sorry you find this position so objectionable. Good night.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Given a choice, all pups should live, and should have a great lifestyle, in a fabulous home, where they are well looked after, and never develop problems. Now, do you think that's really what will always happen?


It doesn't always happen, anyone involved with dogs knows that. However, dogs in rescues don't always come from non health tested parents who've have accidental matings, have poor temperaments and aren't good examples of the breed.

Realistically no breeder can be 100% sure one of their pups couldn't end up in rescue. 
Responsible breeders research puppy buyers the best they can but that doesn't mean peoples situations don't change at some point later in their lives.
Not everyone will return a dog to the breeder, even if they have contracts.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Don't take this the wrong way SL, but we are beating a dead horse now.
> 
> For me the thread has run its course, I said what I had to say, I stand behind what I said and, yes, I believe aborting pups in mid pregnancy in a healthy bitch is morally supremely questionable. Moreover, I believe pups should get a shot at life regardless on how and by whom they were bred. Fortunately, a great many do, they live healthy and adored lives because their adopters don't care about what should have been done, they just do what THEY can. Rescue shelters are NOT overflowing with puppies and to say so as a deterrant is simply wrong.
> 
> I am sorry you find this position so objectionable. Good night.


I'm not the one that's found posts objectionable, at least not from yourself, the only post I thought was a bit below the belt was the one in response to rocco. I would disagree that rescue centres are not overflowing with pups, I see friends involved with rescue where they are rehoming young pups all the time, but then young pups are easy to rehome, but a mixed breed, staffy type dog, 8 years old, who's gonna rehome loads of those, particularly when they've been enhanced with all those behavioural issues over the years!



Darth said:


> It doesn't always happen, anyone involved with dogs knows that. However, dogs in rescues don't always come from non health tested parents who've have accidental matings, have poor temperaments and aren't good examples of the breed.
> 
> Realistically no breeder can be 100% sure one of their pups couldn't end up in rescue.
> Responsible breeders research puppy buyers the best they can but that doesn't mean peoples situations don't change at some point later in their lives.
> Not everyone will return a dog to the breeder, even if they have contracts.


You really don't know when to stop do you.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Darth said:


> Realistically no breeder can be 100% sure one of their pups couldn't end up in rescue.
> Responsible breeders research puppy buyers the best they can but that doesn't mean peoples situations don't change at some point later in their lives.
> Not everyone will return a dog to the breeder, even if they have contracts.


Realistically, breeders can microchip or tattoo pups with their information before they leave their homes, so that even if despite their best efforts at vetting homes, a pup ends up in rescue, the rescue can contact the breeder, and the breeder can come get their pup.

In some breeds, breed rescues are very familiar with the breeders in the region and will call the breeder first if they end up with a dog they think belongs to that breeder. 
And some breeders will even take dogs that are not theirs just to free up space in rescue. But thats what it means for some people to care about the breed as a whole, and dogs in general, not just their own agenda


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Why is this thread still going? OP clearly got what he wanted!!


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

QueenMoo said:


> Why is this thread still going? OP clearly got what he wanted!!


It has morphed in to a discussion of responsible breeding practices in general. Not necessarily a bad thing


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

QueenMoo said:


> Why is this thread still going? OP clearly got what he wanted!!


Because some members have chosen to have a discussion.

If you don't see the need, then don't get involved.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You really don't know when to stop do you.


Who put you in charge??


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> Who put you in charge??


Again, you really don't know when to stop.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Again, you really don't know when to stop.


No need to repeat yourself......it's a forum, everyone's entitled to their opinion and input, remember as you previously quoted, you can always put me on ignore


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

ouesi said:


> It has morphed in to a discussion of responsible breeding practices in general. Not necessarily a bad thing


Not at all, I just see some people arguing and didn't notice the people having a conversation.. I'm sure OP is enjoying the conflict!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> No need to repeat yourself......it's a forum, everyone's entitled to their opinion and input, remember as you previously quoted, you can always put me on ignore


Oh joy, so you have no argument, and despite trying to drag things up to dismiss my opinion, and prove I have no knowledge and experience, this is what you resort to. Playground springs to mind. Good luck with your dogs, if you had any form of courage or honesty you wouldn't hide behind your user name and simply have a go at others, but there we go, go for it.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

after trying to speed read the thread I decided i really needed to read from begining to end

have to say im firmly on the mismate jab side

but

its interesting that even the person who seems to be so involved with rescue hasnt picked up on the fact [and yes i know its been established its all a pile of poo now, so its a moot point really]
what responsible rescue rehomes an unspeyed dog?
especially with an entire dog in the house
given the time frame of the OP the female wouldve been just at the right time for speying before rehoming

as I said a moot point, just thought i would add my tuppence


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

QueenMoo said:


> Not at all, I just see some people arguing and didn't notice the people having a conversation.. I'm sure OP is enjoying the conflict!


Sometimes, people will argue on the forum.

Again, if you don't like it, you don't have to comment.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

QueenMoo said:


> Not at all, I just see some people arguing and didn't notice the people having a conversation.. I'm sure OP is enjoying the conflict!


My guess is that the OP really does have a pitbull/staffy bitch he hopes is pregnant and is impatiently trying to figure out how to tell for sure if she caught or not.

He probably doesnt want to shell out any money to get her checked at a vets so hes fishing for free advice on line (this exact same question was asked on yahoo answers today too). Seems like he knows enough that he shouldnt be doing this breeding so hes spinning the story a bit to get the answers hes looking for without the lecture.

Short answer: no way of knowing if shes pregnant, youll just have to wait and see.


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## 24Paws (Aug 9, 2014)

sam1992ok said:


> ...I picked her up from an owner who told me she had been spayed since she was around 6 months old...


 I think this was a private re-homing, mrs phas. I don't remember seeing OP mention a rescue organisation in any of his other posts, but really...I can't read through this again.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

24Paws said:


> I think this was a private re-homing, mrs phas. I don't remember seeing OP mention a rescue organisation in any of his other posts, but really...I can't read through this again.


sorry must have missed that, i got word blind after a while


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Good luck with your dogs, if you had any form of courage or honesty you wouldn't hide behind your user name and simply have a go at others, but there we go, go for it.


Courage, honesty, hide behind my user name?

What are you talking about?

I think you may have had one too many this evening.

Thank you for your input.....as peculiar as it may be.

Goodnight


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Darth said:


> Courage, honesty, hide behind my user name?
> 
> What are you talking about?
> 
> ...


Yep, way to go, off to go hide for another day, good luck under that particular rock.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Sometimes, people will argue on the forum.
> 
> Again, if you don't like it, you don't have to comment.


I know I don't have to comment but I chose too.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

QueenMoo said:


> I know I don't have to comment but I chose too.


Well, absolutely. Everyone is free to comment, if they so wish.

That's why I found it a little surprising to see you demanding to know why this thread was still going.

It's all about choice, as you have pointed out.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Well, absolutely. Everyone is free to comment, if they so wish.
> 
> That's why I found it a little surprising to see you demanding to know why this thread was still going.
> 
> It's all about choice, as you have pointed out.


Psst demanding..
I meerly asked why it was still going..


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Haven't read all the replies yet as it's past my bed time, but...



ouesi said:


> Okay, done sleuthing (googling the username).
> 
> According to posts and pictures on the interwebz, OP has a 15 or 16 month old male pitbull/staffie named Bruno who appears to be piebald.
> In April he got another pitbull/staffie female named Bonnie. She was not quite 4 months at the time. Definitely piebald.
> ...


Would explain the police interest.

I suspect he only has the one bitch - either a staffy or a pit bull. :frown2:


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

QueenMoo said:


> Psst demanding..
> I meerly asked why it was still going..


Well, I would just relax about that if I were you.

If a thread is still going, there's usually a good reason.

Have a good look around the forum, you'll see that for yourself.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

He might look after them and love them, but he isn't a good owner, for one, why would he have a illegal pitbull age 20? What is the reason for it? Many non illegal and lovely dogs you can have.

Then if the dog had a license from the police and had been through assessment to see if it is allowed back to him, he would have been neutered, which he isn't so he is keeping him illegally  So say the poor 8 month old mum pitbull/staffy has 5-10 pups? What type of people want to own one of these dogs? That they have to be careful with every time they go out in case they are seized and destroyed? What type of life is that? Not the dogs fault at all, they didn't ask for this.

I do wonder how he is going to raise them with such a young mum. Whoever mentioned the PDSA is correct, they will not help what so ever, I do know someone I went to school with that asked me for help years ago with a staffy x staffy mating, he rescued a girl staff from a bad home, she ended up having pups (was told she was neutered) anyway, the mum attacked/ate 4 or 5 of the pups and he hand reared 3 or 4 I think, he asked the pdsa for help on milk advice or anything and they replied no, he even went down there, they said they will not help! 

He did a good job raising them, he couldn't give them away, no one wanted them I think he was asking £25-50 in the end.

Although I guess if you add the word 'pitbull' in the mix a certain type of person will want one


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Sweety said:


> Well, I would just relax about that if I were you.
> 
> If a thread is still going, there's usually a good reason.
> 
> Have a good look around the forum, you'll see that for yourself.


I may be wrong, but I took QueenMoo's comment as a somewhat dazed 'wow, is this still going?' rather than anything accusatory. But the tone behind comments doesn't come across well in the written word so happy to be corrected. 

I for one am enjoying the discussion overall. 

Okay, my take on things, not that anyone asked... 



ouesi said:


> Okay, done sleuthing (googling the username).
> 
> According to posts and pictures on the interwebz, OP has a 15 or 16 month old male pitbull/staffie named Bruno who appears to be piebald.
> In April he got another pitbull/staffie female named Bonnie. She was not quite 4 months at the time. Definitely piebald.


[assumption_mode] I suspect, from ouesi's nosy-parkering D) that the OP has just the two dogs. The pitty/Staff seems to be called Bonnie, which is also the name he gave to his GSD in his first post. You'd think if he ended up with two bitches called Bonnie he'd change the name of one of them... maybe not, though. Bit of a coincidence, though.

I agree with the assumption that this poster has two pits/Staffs and has fabricated the GSD as it is a less contentious breed, what with the label BYB Staffie breeders have in the UK and (hopefully...?) some sort of awareness on the OP's part of the number of Staffs in rescue.

I have not read the original threads in question on the Pitbull forum, so it's bloody fortuitous that I'm writing this with assumption mode on, but the cynic in me says this is an underage bitch mated on her first season (accidentally or otherwise); maybe the discussions on the original forum suggested that this was a pretty stupid thing to happen, so on this forum he has tweaked a few bits of the story to make the tale seem less controversial. The bitch is suddenly a GSD, suddenly two years old and was supposed to be spayed. Takes the onus off the owner a little, that way.

I'm done speculating now... [/assumption_mode]



ouesi said:


> Which makes things even more complicated - the legalities for one, but also the male he's breeding could definitely be a piebald and *I'm not making any bets that this guy knows the first thing about coat color genetics*, so now there's the worry about sensory defects.


*holds hand up* I know virtually nothing about colour coat genetics. Is the mating of piebalds associated with deafness? Can white dogs come out of this? Does this apply in other breeds, such as Danes? Just wondering. 

This thread has turned into a very interesting, and necessarily emotional, discussion on the ethics of abortion in dogs. I have read all the posts with interest, and I can see HATEOTT's point, but I have to say I come down on the other side.

Some may consider me cold-hearted, but I have used the mismate jab many times in dogs. When someone calls me over an unplanned mating and asks me what they should do, I provide all the options but _recommend_ Alizin (obviously it's up to them what they decide).

I am not detached from the matter when I talk about these procedures - for me, it isn't a suggestion on a forum that happens elsewhere in fairy land, behind closed doors. I have spayed late-term bitches and will do so again in the future. I might be wrong, but I suspect I am the only person on this thread who has actually done that - seen it with my own eyes and felt it with my own hands. Ended those lives.

It sucks. No denying it. It puts all the staff on a downer, rightly so. But in all cases, it has been agreed by owner and vet that it's the right thing to do. Otherwise it wouldn't be happening. I feel saddened by all but so far, there is not one I regret.

Cold-hearted bitch, am I... 

But I don't like to anthropomorphise (except where my cat is involved, and that is my fault, not his ) and while abortion is never something to be taken lightly I _personally_ do not believe it to be a moral question in dogs. Dogs do not breed by choice - it happens on instinct or because humans make it happen - and as the overseers of the situation we need to make those decisions with the welfare of the bitch in mind.

Before the pups are born, her welfare precedes that of the unborn litter. When considering the unborn litter, there is still plenty to think about before declaring: 'all litters deserve to be born'. For me, comparisons with human pregnancy and birth are irrelevant and unhelpful.

I think WeedySeaDragon raises a very valid point here:



WeedySeaDragon said:


> Really? What if the health tests had been done and showed both sire and dam were carriers of a heritable condition? What if both parents were merle/harlequin? What if there was a massive size/build discrepancy between them? How much of a risk does there have to be to the pups or dam before the mismate jab is worth it?


As for the whole 'breeding experience' malarkey going on as an aside, it's not a case of number of litters = level of experience IMO. Someone (sorry, I forget who) has already used the example of puppy farmers to dispel this theory. I have personally bred no litters whatsoever, but I have more experience of breeding and whelping than most of the bitch owners who walk through my door. That said, I have said before that I see a handful of conscientious, experienced breeders from whom I am always pleased to learn, and whom I recognise to be better placed than me to comment on certain situations related to breeding and whelping.

There's a lot more I could say, but I don't know how many of you are still reading by this point. 

Let me tell you a story that is 100% true.

A year or two ago, I was asked to euthanase an ENTIRE litter of Staffie pups aged just seven weeks, because the owner/breeder was finding them too much to cope with. There were blues in the litter. I refused (I was so shocked - they'd only been vaccinated two days before); maybe I shouldn't have done. I don't know what happened to those pups. It's nice to put it to the back of my mind and have a cup of tea, but it haunts me sometimes. If it happened again tomorrow, I'm still not sure what I'd do.

Would it have been better for those pups never to have been born? Based on that request: I'm sorry, but YES.

The fact of the matter remains that for me, personally, ending the lives of unwanted, unplanned or unecessary litters in utero is preferable to ending them when they are playful pups looking up at you from the consulting room table. And I challenge anyone here to pick between the two situations and pick differently.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Well, I would just relax about that if I were you.
> 
> If a thread is still going, there's usually a good reason.
> 
> Have a good look around the forum, you'll see that for yourself.


I'm relaxed enough thank you and am a past member so I'm fully aware of forum life especially on PF.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> I may be wrong, but I took QueenMoo's comment as a somewhat dazed 'wow, is this still going?' rather than anything accusatory. But the tone behind comments doesn't come across well in the written word so happy to be corrected.
> 
> I for one am enjoying the discussion overall.
> 
> Okay, my take on things, not that anyone asked...


Nope, you're completely right.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> *holds hand up* I know virtually nothing about colour coat genetics. Is the mating of piebalds associated with deafness? Can white dogs come out of this? Does this apply in other breeds, such as Danes? Just wondering.


Yes, we have piebalds in danes, that are often mistaken for harlequins. Coat color genetics is way above my pay grade too, but I do know that piebalds often do produce white headed dogs, and a white head is associated with deafness.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2014)

Just to say Shoshannah, I hope everyone reads your post the whole way through. Well worth it. Thank you.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> ...Some may consider me cold-hearted, but I have used the mismate jab many times in dogs. When someone calls me over an unplanned mating and asks me what they should do, I provide all the options but _recommend_ Alizin (obviously it's up to them what they decide).
> 
> I am not detached from the matter when I talk about these procedures - for me, it isn't a suggestion on a forum that happens elsewhere in fairy land, behind closed doors. I have spayed late-term bitches and will do so again in the future. I might be wrong, but I suspect I am the only person on this thread who has actually done that - seen it with my own eyes and felt it with my own hands. Ended those lives.
> 
> ...


horrid position to be put in  ((hugs))

and FWIW, i've been on the nursing side of the table during a late-term spay (of a cat). it was hard enough for 'us' to have to place the uterus to the side (and eventually in the 'waste' freezer compartment) and continue on with what we were doing, but the vet 
(now i will admit to not quite being his biggest fan, but) i really felt for him that day. he was more than willing to do the spay as it was in the best interests of the cat, but the breeder had given him the wrong dates- we weren't expecting to see the kits moving.
but better to be terminated at that point than disposed of after birth... too often we have to read about full litters being dumped off at only weeks, days or even mere hours after birth- why risk that happening when they can be terminated before they take a breath? (rhetorical, i'm not expecting anyone to be able to anwser that!)


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## IDOODOO2 (Oct 14, 2014)

Could you advise me whether to feed my bitch on puppy milk while she is pregnant?


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## sam1992ok (Aug 9, 2014)

I didn't put down puppy milk until she was actually in labour, as she will lose interest in food around the time of delivery so it's a good way of getting nutrients into her. 

I would stick to a high quality puppy kibble whilst pregnant. I changed my bitches diet at around 3 weeks. Putting down normal kibble with a mixture of a good quality puppy kibble. Slowly increasing the amount of puppy kibble each week until by around 7 weeks she was eating a full puppy kibble
Diet. Feed her plenty. Keep them energy levels high.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

IDOODOO2 said:


> Could you advise me whether to feed my bitch on puppy milk while she is pregnant?


You'd be better starting a new thread than attaching your question to an old one, particularly as it's a bit of a contentious one.

If you're feeding a high quality diet it shouldn't be necessary to add puppy milk, though adding some good puppy food is often advised. Too much added calcium in the food during pregnancy make eclampsia more likely.

I found the puppy food made my pregnant bitch have the runs, so I stopped and just gave her increased amounts of her normal top-end food.


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