# Sticky  Raw Feeding: everything you need to know!



## katiefranke

*update 25/11/2010 *- unfortunately, despite the explanation below and the fact that it has been live for almost 5 months, this week I have been told that it is unclear as to the intention of this thread from the title.

*Therefore to avoid any confusion, this thread is intended as a resource for those who want to feed a raw diet - simple as that.* It has a lot of information collated into one place to make it less confusing to newbies and also discussion on feeding a raw diet including problems encountered and resolutions to these. Those who are making up their minds are welcome also.

I ask everyone to please keep on topic, as we are now on almost 600 posts and those people who are using this as a resource, as per the original intention, are now finding it difficult to wade through the off topic posts and find the information they need. Their questions are also getting lost and going unanswered because of this.

I hope that is clear - happy feeding!

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I have found myself answering lots of threads on raw feeding lately, so thought I would put together some of the basics for people - hope its useful 
If anyone else would like to add more, please do...also if you have any specific questions not answered here, please post and one of us will answer! 

I have posted a series of posts here, so scroll down to see:
- *'The Basics'*
- *'Switching to a raw diet'*
- *'Pros and cons of feeding raw'* *Updated Links*
- *'Where to buy supplies'* & *'Further info'* & *'Precautions'* *Updated Links*
- *'Sample 2 week meal plan'* to give you some ideas
- *'Pictures & preparation tips'* Lots of pictures of the kinds of things you will be feeding and info on preparing meals (Incl. Sleeping Lion's thread) 
- *'What about cats?'* please see hobbs2004 great thread for feeding cats a raw diet: http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/111455-thinking-feeding-raw.html

- By request *'Feeding puppies'* section coming soon!

*Ok so the basics are as follows:*

*Model:* I feed a raw diet originally based on Tom Lonsdale's 'Raw Meaty Bones (RMB)' or prey model style feeding (see resources below for links to websites and books). This means that you feed as close as possible to a wild diet or whole raw prey (but most make this up with parts of the animals).

Some feed veggies, some feed fruit, some feed table scraps...in moderation, most fruit and veg will not harm your dog - but they are not a NECESSARY part of the diet, and there is currently no known nutritional requirement for them, as everything can be found within the raw meat/bones/offal etc components.

If you DO choose to feed veggies and fruit, please be aware that some of these items fed in excess can be harmful. For those who would like to feed veggies as well, see sleeping lions post quoted below with some great piccies of the food and nutritional breakdowns, further down in this series.

*How much:* You need to feed approx 2-3% of their expected adult body weight (if still growing) per day, or of their ideal adult body weight (if they have stopped growing) per day.

2% would perhaps be for a dog with low exercise or overweight. 3%+ would be for a dog with high exercise daily, perhaps sports dogs and also puppies. Somewhere around 2.5% suits most average adult dogs. Large breeds have slower metabolisms so they tend to need the lower % and small breeds have a high metabolism so often need far more than 3% even.

*What?* Remember the roughly 80:10:10 ratio - which is approx 70-80% muscle meat (incl. heart, tripe and oily fish), 10-20% bone (within some of that meat), 10% offal (this should be ½ liver and half other offal such as kidney, spleen etc). However, this is a very rough guideline and should be tweaked to suit the dog - for instance many feed more like 15-20% bone and as little as 5% offal. Either way it usually equates to somewhere in the region of 50-70% of the diet as lumps of meat with bone in...the remainder of the diet being made up of boneless chunks of muscle meat, incl heart/tripe etc, plus a small amount of offal like liver & kidney. On top of this, many feed a couple of eggs a week (whole and raw).
(see next post below about switching to raw)

NOTE: None of this has to be religiously stuck to on a daily basis - as long as over a period of weeks this adds up to roughly the correct amounts - and each dog is different, so some may need slightly lower bone, some might not be able to tolerate that much offal etc etc, hence the variable % stated above too.
Additional info: if you would like to feed veggies/fruit also in 'Pictures & Preparation Tips' post below.

Some ideas for meals: could be a chunk of meat of beef, lamb, pork, chicken, rabbit, turkey, venison, oily fish such as salmon, mackeral, herring, sardines, a bone-in meal of rabbit/chicken quarter or pork/lamb ribs etc...heart from any of the above animals, beef/venison tripe...the list is endless!

Size of pieces: The size of the pieces should always be appropriate to the size of the dog and the bigger the better! For instance, I would not personally recommend feeding something like a chicken wing to anything larger than a small breed, as this could easily be 'inhaled' and swallowed whole...instead a chicken breast and wing quarter or even a half chicken is much better for medium + breeds.

Type of bones: You should preferably avoid any weight-bearing bones of the large ungulates (i.e. avoid leg bones of cows etc) as they are so dense that they can chip the enamel of a dogs teeth. My rule of thumb is that if I can stick a knife in the bone, then it is soft enough to feed (think pork/lamb rib bones, chicken/duck/rabbit bones etc)...

*When?* Feed whenever it is suitable to you - obviously with a puppy they would need a number of feeds per day, but by the time they are 6 months you would normally move them onto 2 meals a day and then once they have stopped growing many raw feeders put them onto 1 meal a day, often in the evening as it is most convenient. However, I personally feed twice a day still as this works for me and Maggie & the cats.

*RESOURCES:*
Ok so for a good overview of this, take a look at Tom Lonsdale's site and books (PM me if you would like a copy): Raw Meaty Bones and the UK RMB Lobby: United Kingdom Raw Meaty Bones Support & Action Group

Some good info explaining the basics and answering common questions:
Difference between prey model & BARF
Answers to common questions

Worried about things like bacteria, frightened your dog might choke on a bone? - take a look at these common raw feeding myths and worries here for some answers to your fears: The Many Myths of Raw Feeding

Useful article here also: Removing the Fears Associated with Raw Feeding

Want some support from a massive worldwide group of like-minded people? Join the Yahoo lists below:
RawMeatyBones : RawMeatyBones
rawfeeding : Raw Feeding for dogs and cats!
RawPup : Rawfed Pups
Raw K9s (you can even ask to be assigned a mentor for this one who will help you through raw feeding every step of the way  )

Also see the post a few below with 'Links to further information'.


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## katiefranke

*Switching to a raw diet:*

Some guidelines from my own experience and research would be:
Take it slow...there is no rush to get your dog eating everything all in one go!
Most people start with one protein source, such as chicken, and get their dogs on this for a week or so. Then add another protein source, ie rabbit or beef etc (so your dog is now eating chicken plus rabbit) for another week or so. If everything seems good, introduce another etc etc... I switched cold turkey so to speak - one day kibble, next day straight to raw and no looking back! But some like to introduce gradually - whichever you prefer - but if you do introduce gradually, then I would suggest keeping the kibble and raw meals separate as they digest at different rates.

I started with raw chicken breast (no bone) for the first couple of meals and then went to chicken breast & wing, and leg & thigh quarters (bone in). I took the skin off so she could tell it was meat and just let her eat it in her own time. She initially took a VERY long time to eat her first couple of meals, spending a lot of time licking it and not actually eating it! But now she chomps away quite happily. You may want to hold the food for your dog to eat with its first bone-in meal if you are worried. You will soon find that they can eat it quite happily on their own though 

Once your dog seems settled on completely raw food for a couple of weeks, start introducing VERY small amounts of liver and offal at a time - so a tiny weeny bit as small as a little finger nail to start. Some dogs are not affected by liver & offal and can quickly build up to the right amount and can have a chunk every few days for their allowance eventually, whilst some never do too well on much liver and offal and may need to have tiny bits every day or so - as with everything, feed to your dogs tolerance.

I initially kept a drawer in my freezer and the bottom meat drawer in my fridge to store the food - but after a couple of months got a second-hand under counter freezer to keep everything in. I will have a utility soon so am going to have a tall freezer for all their food 

Lots more tips here:
RawMeatyBones : RawMeatyBones
rawfeeding : Raw Feeding for dogs and cats!
RawPup : Rawfed Pups
Raw K9s (you can even ask to be assigned a mentor for this one who will help you through raw feeding every step of the way)
Switching to a Raw Diet


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## katiefranke

*Pros and Cons of raw feeding:*

I can honestly say I would never go back now out of choice - I feed the dog and both cats on a full raw diet...I do think that they need to be on it for a few months before you see the full benefits but also for me it is about long-term health, not just immediate visible benefits or cost.

So you know my comparison, I was feeding both dog and cats on a grain-free premium kibble (Orijen) prior to switching.

Ok so downsides:
*Shopping/portioning:* It's a pain in the arse doing the initial shop every few weeks and then spending a good couple of hours cutting everything up and bagging it and arranging the freezer!
*Cleaning:* It also means I have to be slightly more conscientious with cleaning up after meal time, however, I must say that now we have been feeding like this for quite some time I am a bit lazy about it and none of us have had any ill effects from it.
*Starting out: *it is slightly confusing starting out and you do have to do a bit of research to understand what to feed - but there is so much info out there and once you start feeding like this you realise how simple it is! (assuming 'Raw Meaty Bones'/prey model, as from experience some other methods over-complicate it by insisting on all sorts of supplements)
*Cost:* when starting out it can be more expensive, but if you can build up relationships with butchers etc or buy from farmers markets and in bulk, you can get the costs right down. I could easily get mine lower in cost if I could be bothered to shop around a bit, but currently the cats are costing 1/2 the price per day they did on Orijen and the dog is very slightly more per day - but instead they are getting all free-range fresh meat!

But the benefits far outweigh the above:
*Coats & skin: *Everyone has beautiful glossy coats, lovely skin, bright eyes
*Teeth & gums:* Their teeth are amazing, seriously - maggies were not bad anyway so not a huge change there, but the cats - even I am amazed with the change - they were only about 18 months old when I put them on it and I didnt feed them a bad diet before, but their teeth were yellow and the back ones were slightly mushy and horrid and their gumline was all red and inflamed. All their teeth are now absolutely perfectly gleaming white and their gums are lovely and tight and the right colour! I am convinced to keep them on this diet with this change alone!
*Allergies & sensitive tums:* Maggie has allergies and this way I can control them much easier as I know exactly what I am feeding them all. Kittens used to have dodgy tums on any dry brand i tried but since feeding raw have really settled
*Smaller/less frequent poops! *All of them have much smaller, less frequent and less smelly poos. They are seriously smaller than kibble-fed dogs & cats as they can use more of the food and have less waste. Also, if for any reason you cant pick it up immediately (i.e. let out at 2am and in your PJs!) when you go to pick it up the sunlight has turned it to chalkyness - its not rank to pick up!
*Never bored/fussy: *They never seem to be bored or picky/fussy with their food - they love every single meal I give them and as it is a great variety they cant really get bored.
*Enjoyment of food: *They look like they are enjoying their food - really enjoying it - and it doesnt just get inhaled in 30 seconds, they have to work at it and take a bit of time to eat it all. It is great watching them enjoy crunching through their bone meals especially 
*Behaviour/Energy levels:* I never have hyperactive times with any of them - but they still have a healthy amount of energy - especially noticeable with maggie being a BC (she is proving very fast at agility). I also know a number of people who were having real behaviour problems with adolescents and after switching to raw found it much easier to solve the issues
*Long-term health benefits:* I feel that by feeding this way for their lives I am going to be increasing the quality of their lives and health when they start getting old

One thing to add is that I do really think it depends on whether you add veg or grains, or feed part kibble etc, as my friends who feed with veg and also feed minces do not see quite the same benefits re teeth cleaning, smaller poops and behaviour. That could just be their individual circumstances though - would be interesting to know what others have found re these benefits if feeding veg/half and half etc...?

*Some have asked, but what about bacteria/parasites? and wont my dog be bloodthirsty if I feed raw? how about bones being a choking hazard?* However, a raw feeders view is that these are not 'cons' of raw feeding (hence why I dont list them above as such) but rather 'perceived' cons of raw feeding, or myths if you like. Whilst the following site is a little dated, most of the information is still relevant - so take a look and it should answer the questions above and more: The Many Myths of Raw Feeding

MYTH: Bacteria in raw meat is dangerous to my pet: http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html
- Detailed article on The question of bacteria
MYTH: My pet will get parasites from the raw meat: http://rawfed.com/myths/parasites.html
MYTH: Raw-fed dogs pose a serious health risk to humans: http://rawfed.com/myths/zoonotic.html
MYTH: Feeding raw meat makes a dog bloodthirsty: http://rawfed.com/myths/bloodthirsty.html
- Raw feeding does NOT make your dog aggressive!
MYTH: Because of the risks of bones, ground raw diets are better: http://rawfed.com/myths/ground.html
MYTH: Raw meat diets are not balanced: http://rawfed.com/myths/balance.html
- More info on the question of balance: http://www.thewholedog.org/balance.html

Also take a look at this article: Removing the Fears Associated with Raw Feeding

Please also read *Tom Lonsdales books *(mentioned in post below) to find out more on each of these - he cites many articles in each chapter which provide further information also.

I would obviously *encourage you to do further reading on these topics* and carry out your own research to come to a point where you are comfortable with these things, but the above at least gives you a starting point to understand a raw feeders view on this... Please see links to further information at the bottom of the first post and also in the post below.


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## katiefranke

*Where to buy supplies*

I personally buy from my local butchers and supermarkets...however, there are loads of places you can buy from, just do a little digging!

Butchers & fresh counters at supermarkets at the very end of the day as they sometimes sell off cheaper and in bulk
Farm shops
Farmers markets
Ethnic markets often have the less common offal items
Online butchers & suppliers
Suppliers such as:
Woldsway Rabbit
The Dogfood Company - a review and info on this company in another thread on this forum: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/125697-dog-food-company.html thread
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/197702-raw-food-supplier-list.html

*Links to further information*

A brilliant resource for understanding more about raw feeding: Jane Anderson's Raw Learning Site

Some answers to a lot of common questions and worries about raw, including dispelling some myths about raw feeding: The Many Myths of Raw Feeding

Another interesting article on Removing the Fears Associated with Raw Feeding

Great and informative Yahoo Lists on raw feeding - loads of very experienced members, great for starting out and troubleshooting:
RawMeatyBones : RawMeatyBones (mainly UK)

rawfeeding list (mainly US but thousands of members! - they also have many sister lists such as RawPup, RawChat etc)

Raw K9s (you can even ask to be assigned a mentor for this one who will help you through raw feeding every step of the way)

Ideas for 'recipes' with pictures!

B-Naturals Newsletter - Lew Olson, PhD Natural Nutrition - great site with a load of information and linked articles about canine nutrition, digestion etc. Explains the workings of digestion and how nutrients and component parts of the diet are utilised. Also info on feeding for paricular conditions and life stages etc.

Feeding a species appropriate diet: Home (includes a lot more info too on the related aspects of natural rearing in general)

SARF - Species Appropriate/Specific Nutrition: Species Specific Nutrition

Guide to raw feeding: Krisannrio's Raw feeding site - Home (good links page)

Feeding a raw diet - breeders thoughts: Leerburg | Feeding a Raw Diet

Optimum Pet Nutrition: Optimum Pet Nutrition

Articles of Interest regarding Diet & Nutrition: Articles Of Interest

A whole host of different information on raw feeding - links to video, audio & articles/sites: Raw Feeding Information | Aspenbloom Pet Care

Australian RMB Group: Aussie Raw Meaty Bones - Support & Action Group 
US RMB Group: United States Raw Meaty Bones

Meat cuts - a great resource to help you understand where various cuts of meat are located on the animal: Meat Charts - The Virtual Weber Bullet

Dogs: The Omnivore-Carnivore Question, by Dr. Jeannie Thomason & Dr. Kim Bloomer: http://aspenbloompetcare.com/Dogs_The_Omnivore_Carnivore_Question.pdf

Do Wolves/Dogs Eat the Vegetable Contents of Herbivores' Stomachs? : Raw Meaty Bones For Healthy Pets: Do Wolves/Dogs Eat the Vegetable Contents of Herbivores' Stomachs?

How to safely clean up after your pets and around the home in general without using harmful chemicals: Home

*Dr Tom Lonsdales books:*
Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health - Raw Meaty Bones
_"389 pages of peer-reviewed fully referenced information for pet owners, veterinarians, medical and dental researchers, teachers, journalists, regulators and anyone who cares about animals, the human economy and natural environment. For less than the price of a consultation with your vet learn how prevention not treatment leads to vital health benefits and cost savings."_

Work Wonders: Feed your dog Raw Meaty Bones - Raw Meaty Bones
_"Dr Tom Lonsdale inspires us to see a dog's dietary needs from a dog's perspective taking account of Nature's teachings, easily understood science and sound common sense.

Eight easy-to-read chapters lead us through the practical essentials of dog feeding including how to source, store and prepare raw food. Risk management is dealt with in Chapter 5. In Chapter 6 we learn about the junk-food induced diseases afflicting modern pets and in Chapter 7 the epidemic of canine oral disease and 'dog breath' is explained." _

*Precautions*
*More info on the RMB & rawfeeding Yahoo lists:*

*PORK:* If you feed raw pork it is best to freeze it for at least 48 hours-1 week, but some suggest up to 3 weeks. The action of freezing kills the parasites as they need water to stay alive.

If you are *not* in the UK, you will also need to check if Aujeszky's Disease is a problem in your country: Defra, UK - Error page Luckily we do not have this in the UK - but always check the source of the pork to make sure it comes from within the UK.

*BEEF:* If feeding beef, some like to freeze for 48 hours-1 week, as it can carry a parasite called neospora caninum Neospora caninum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*SALMON & TROUT:* If feeding salmon (or trout) from the west coast of North America, from San Francisco to Alaska, they can potentially carry a deadly parasite - the microbe Neorickettsia helminthoeca lives in parasites which live in the fish. If dogs eat fresh, unfrozen fish they may develop salmon poisoning.

However, following the FDA guidelines for freezing will kill the parasite:
- Freeze and store at (-20°C) or below for 7 days (total time) or;
- Freeze at (-35°C) or below until solid and store at (-35°C) or below for 15 hours or;
- Freeze at (-35°C) or below until solid and store at (-20°C) or below for 24 hours.
Note: these conditions may not be suitable for freezing particularly large fish (e.g. thicker than six inches) (FDA, 2001)

*WILD GAME:* if feeding wild game, please ensure all shot has been removed. Again, many like to freeze prior to feeding as they can carry parasites - freeze as per the freezing guidelines above...


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## katiefranke

*Sample 2 week meal plan*

_I have been asked a lot for a menu or my typical meal plan, so by popular demand, here is just a sample of a 2 week meal plan - this is by no means an exhaustive list of items and you will also find that you need to tailor to your dogs size, weight, exercise levels & bowel tolerance! Please remember that each new food should be introduced gradually!_

At the time of writing, Maggie weighs 16.5kg and is an 18 month old Border Collie with moderate-high physical exercise (mix of play, free running, lead walks & agility).

We have adjusted the amount we feed her over the months as she has got older and judged whether we need to increase or decrease the amount by how she looks & feels - so I don't want to see her ribs, but I want to be able to feel the individual ribs if I press my fingers lightly over them. A BC should be lean, but preferably not 'skinny' once past the leggy growth stage. We currently feed her approx 480-500g per day, which is a full 3% of her body weight.

I generally feed twice a day and usually give a meat-only meal in the AM and a bonier meal in the PM. If I give something with a high bone content like pork/lamb ribs, turkey neck, then I would try and feed meatier meals the following day to balance out.

As I don't feed that much in the way of oily fish I add a small amount of cold-pressed salmon body oil or I have just started adding some good quality organic butter instead now it is getting colder and I want to keep her energy up for agility etc (dogs obtain their energy needs from animal proteins, fat and water - as opposed to carbs).

I also give cheese (another source of animal protein) cut into very small cubes, chicken/turkey (cooked for ease of handling), or cooked liver (again in very small cubes) for training treats pretty much daily.

*Week 1 - *

Day 1
Breakfast: turkey steak
Dinner: skin-on duck leg & thigh quarter
Day 2
Breakfast: lump of pork meat
Dinner: skin-on duck breast & wing quarter + a raw egg
Day 3
Breakfast: whole lambs heart
Dinner: slab of meaty pork ribs + a small amount of kidney/pancreas/lungs
Day 4
Breakfast: lump of beef meat (usually brisket)
Dinner: skin-on chicken breast & wing quarter
Day 5
Breakfast: chunks/strips of tripe + a raw egg (shell and all)
Dinner: slab of lamb ribs
Day 6
Breakfast: turkey steak
Dinner: skin-on chicken breast & wing quarter
Day 7
Breakfast: lump of beef meat
Dinner: slab of meaty pork ribs + a small amount of lamb or ox liver

*Week 2 -*

Day 1
Breakfast: piece of ox tongue
Dinner: skin-on chicken leg & thigh quarter
Day 2
Breakfast: lump of pork meat + chunks of tripe
Dinner: skin-on chicken breast & wing quarter + a raw egg (shell and all)
Day 3
Breakfast: ox heart
Dinner: slab of meaty pork ribs + a small amount of kidney/pancreas/lungs
Day 4
Breakfast: 
Dinner: half a rabbit + a chicken liver
Day 5
Breakfast: chunks/strips of tripe + a raw egg (shell and all)
Dinner: chicken carcass
Day 6
Breakfast: venison meat (special treat)
Dinner: big turkey necks (quite boney meal as venison quite rich)
Day 7
Breakfast: a handful of sardines or other oily fish
Dinner: slab of meaty pork ribs, plus a small amount of kidney/pancreas/lungs


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## katiefranke

*Pictures and preparation tips*

Ok some piccies of typical meals in my house! 

Take one whole chicken:









and cut off leg & thigh 1/4 and wing with some breast 1/4:









then if it is a decent size chicken you can get some meat off the breast for a meal too:









I cut off the wing tips for a treat for the cats!









And the meaty carcass can make a decent boney meal too;









So you get 4 chicken 1/4, some breast meat and a carcass out of chicken - for a larger dog you could just cut in half!









Heres a nice meaty meal - beef brisket - cut in half or appropriate meal sizes, or just feed as a whole lump - nice and tough to give a real good chewy workout:









Lump of lamb leg - again cut into half or appropriate portion sizes, or just feed as a whole lump:









Slabs of pork ribs:









and some ox heart in slices - I usually give whole but was cutting this for the cats too, so i would give a slice of this along with something else for maggie:









More ideas:
Sleeping Lion's thread with some great pictures of the kinds of things you will be feeding on a raw diet - including tips on how to prepare! To view the full thread conversation view here: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-heal...arning-gory-pics-post1616712.html#post1616712

*WARNING, GORY PICCIES OF RAW MEAT*



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Raw feeding isn't for everyone, but following on from the veggie bit I did a while back, I thought I'd do the equivalent post for meat, and try and explain a bit about what I include in their diet, and why. I've included photographs so people can see what the meats look like, not everyone has seen a beast (beef) heart for example, and some might not know the easiest way to take apart a lamb rib cage, so if you're squeamish, please be aware I've included photographs giving examples of these sorts of things.
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> I have only put in a bit of information about tripe from a useful tripe website, as I have included a link at the end, where you can read in full about the nutritional value of each of the raw meats, and the link also contains a very useful table showing how the vitamins and minerals are used.
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> First up is tripe, which mine get for breakfast approximately five times a week.
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> Green Tripe (not the bleached white stuff from the butchers)
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> Tripe is the stomach of ruminating animals. These animals (i.e. cattle, buffalo, sheep, deer, goats, antelope, etc.) are classified as being four-footed, hooved, cud chewing mamals with a stomach that consists of four chambers. The four chambers of such a stomach are known as the rumen, reticulum, omasum and the abomasum. The food the animal eats (i.e. grass, hay) is swallowed unchewed and passes into the rumen and reticulum where it is then regurgitated, chewed and mixed with saliva. It is again swallowed and then passed through the reticulum and omasum into the abomasum, where it is then further broken down by the gastric juices, amino acids and other digestive enzymes.
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> In an analysis of a sample of green tripe by a Woodson-Tenant Lab in Atlanta, Georgia, it was discovered that the calciumhosphorous ratio is 1:1, the overall pH is on the acidic side which is better for digestion, protein is 15.1, fat 11.7 and it contained the essential fatty acids, Linoleic and Linolenic, in their recommended proportions. Also discovered, was the presence of Lactic Acid Bacteria. Lactic Acid Bacteria, also known as Lactobacillus Acidophilus, is the good intestinal bacteria. It is the main ingredient in probiotics.
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> The tripe I get comes in 2lb bags, which I split between my two for breakfast, and mix in their blended veggies.
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> Raw Heart (Lamb or Beast (Beef))
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> I buy a mix of beast and lambs hearts, and chop it up and bag in portion sizes. They either get it as a meal on it's own, or I use it over a couple of days adding bits in to their other food. The meat has a texture like steak, and it doesn't smell like liver, kidneys or other offal.
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> Raw Lamb Bones
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> I get free bones from my local butchers, and they usually come supplied as whole rib cages. If you're squeamish, and don't like seeing how to take apart a carcass, don't scroll down.
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> You will need a good pair of poultry shears and a sharp, small knife to make it easy to take the carcasses apart, first off, use the poultry shears to cut along the bottom of the ribs, about 2-3 inches in width.
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> From the back of the rib cage, where the ribs are longest, count two or three ribs in (depending on the size, for larger count three ribs in) and slide a knife down inbetween the third and fourth rib, making sure you cut right down to the backbone. Hold down the other rib cage from inside, and pull the three ribs back from the carcass, they should dislocate and tear away fairly easily. Do the same for the other side, although it isn't as easy without having the full rib cage to pull against, it shouldn't be too difficult.
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> Using the sharp knife, place the lamb bones resting upright on the ribs that are left, with the neck in your left hand, and cut down in front of the first dorsal bone on the rib cage. Then push down hard so that the neck part separates from the back, cut around the sides and base to separate any muscle tissue left on there, and pull apart.
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> I would feed the neck/back parts each as one meal, and depending on the size fatty rib cage bottom, possibly include the ribs broken away as one meal - so out of that one rib cage there should be enough for four meals as follows - neck; back with small ribs; fatty rib cage with three ribs x 2
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> I use bones mainly for their evening meal, which they get at around 5pm, and they absolutely love them!!
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> The chicken they get is either chicken carcasses stripped of most of the meat, one and a half carcasses, which has the breast and about half of the backbones is enough for one meal; or else I get chicken wings, the last two digits, six of which make enough for one meal. Fortunately I don't have to chop chicken up, but do usually have to pay for it, and depending on whether I get it from the butchers or another supplier, there is more meat on the carcasses, and so the price varies between approx £2.50 to £5 for a large box.
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> Liver
> 
> I use lambs liver, and along with tinned fish, this is the only meat I don't feed raw. Liver can be high in vitamin A, and I have found in the past it can make mine loose, and so I cook the liver, either in water, or in goats milk. They still absolutely love it, and it has good nutritional value for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tubbed up and ready to freeze, one tub is fine split between two, and if needs be, I'll add a bit of something else if I think it isn't quite enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also feed mine tinned fish in tomato sauce, or oil, simply adding a 125g tin shared between the two, once or twice a week. You can feed fish raw, but I have found with my two that it doesn't always suit them, and they end up bringing it back up half the time.
> 
> I also give them lambs kidneys, which I have found fine to feed raw, and I add them as part of a meal, usually with something like beast heart.
> 
> They get a whole raw egg, once or twice a week, shell and all, and they also get any shells left over from cooking.
> 
> I don't use pork bones, because you need to be sure of the source so that they are free from internal parasites. Nor do I feed many beef bones, just the occasional marrow bone as a treat for half an hour or so, because they are much more dense, and wear the teeth down that much quicker.
> 
> This link saves me quite a bit of typing, and gives the nutritional values for a variety of raw meats, and shows the vitamins and minerals they provide, as well as telling you how they are used.
> 
> Useful articles about the nutritional value of raw meats
> 
> That's how I use the meat part of the BARF diet, I know others might do it differently, but after feeding my two from pups, and making a few additions and changes along the way, I'm happy with the variety and amounts they get and am glad I don't feel the need to use any fillers. As before, if anyone wants a copy of the BARF sheet I use, please feel free to pm me and ask, it's drawn up from what I've read and experienced. It would be good if others who feed can add bits about their experiences as well, and any thing they do differently.
> 
> Typical menu for my Labradors:
> 
> For adult Labs:
> 
> Monday
> Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses & 125g tinned sardines
> 
> Tuesday
> Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses
> 
> Wednesday
> Breakfast - 250-400g chicken carcasses, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 250g liver cooked in goats milk, 150g chicken carcasses
> 
> Thursday
> Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses
> 
> Friday
> Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses
> 
> Saturday
> Breakfast - 250-400g chicken carcasses, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 250g beef/lambs heart
> 
> Sunday
> Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses
> 
> Where ever I use chicken carcasses, I interchange with lamb bones as well. I also give other food regularly, such as a whole raw egg, cottage cheese, natural yoghurt, and any appropriate left overs. Mine aren't wheat intolerant, so anything like the odd bit of stale bread, left over pasta etc gets thrown their way, not that there's much in my house!


Some more great piccies of 'Logan/Matrix's boys eating their first bones! 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/115833-boys-gnashing-their-first-bone-chomp-chomp-chomp.html

And for anyone who would like to make up their own *veggie mixes, here are some great preparation tips*:



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I get asked, and see people post asking the question about what blended veg to feed, how much to feed etc. So whilst preparing a batch of veggies over the last day, I've even taken photos, to help people see clearly how I go about it, and hopefully other barf/raw feeders will add in their bits, for anyone who searches for info about it on the forum.
> 
> First up is the selection of vegetables, which can be anything really, with a mix across the range of root, leaf and pulse. I was outside doing this yesterday as it was warm enough, and Indie and Tau got the occasional treats chucked their way. The only couple of things to avoid are broccolli and onions, although mine do occasionally get bits of broccolli that are left over, I don't buy it specifically to put in their veg mix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carrots are a useful source of vitamins A, B1, B6, C and K.
> Cabbage (dark green like savoy) are a useful source of vitamins B1, Folate and C, along with Sulphur.
> Swede is a useful source of vitamins B1, B6, Folate and C.
> Parsnips are a useful source of vitamins B1, B6, Folate, C, along with Potassium and Phosphorus.
> Green beans are a useful source of vitamins A, Folate and C.
> 
> Other things I put in there are:
> 
> Cauliflower is a useful source of vitamins B1, B6, C and K, along with Potassium.
> Spinach is a useful source of vitamins A, B6, Folate, C and K, along with Calcium, Iron, Phosphorus, and Magnesium.
> Sweet Potato is a useful source of vitamins A, B1, B6, C and E, along with Potassium.
> Tomato is a useful source of vitamins A, B6 and C.
> 
> I do sometimes put apple, banana or pear into their veg mix, and are good sources of vitamin C, B6 and C, along with Potassium and Magnesium.
> 
> I chop them all up and put them into one of those hessian bags ready to blend:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The nuts are in there because they have a good mix of vitamins and minerals, so I put a good size handful in there (along with a couple of cloves of garlic):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Almonds - B vitamins, E / Calcium, Copper, Iron, Potassium, Magnesium, Phosophorus and Zinc
> Brazils - B1, B6 / Calcium, Copper, Potassium, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Sulphur, Selenium and Zinc
> Cashews - B1, B6 / Copper, Iron, Potassium, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Sulphur, Selenium and Zinc
> Hazelnuts - B1, B6 / Calcium, Potassium, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Sulphur and Zinc
> Peanuts - B1, B6, Folate and Niacin / Copper, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Sulphur and Zinc
> Pecans - B1 / Copper, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Sulphur and Zinc
> Walnuts - B6 / Copper, Magnesium and Phosphorus
> 
> Garlic has two 'medicinal' ingredients, Allicin and Diallyl Sulphides. Allicin is active once garlic is chopped or crushed, and is linked to anti biotic and anti fungal properties. Diallyl Sulphides is linked to improving blood and circulation, again, it is more effective when chopped/crushed.
> 
> The other things that go into their food are one capful of apple cider vinegar, and a level teaspoon of turmeric. Apple cider vinegar is linked to healthy bones, and helps fight against osteoperosis, containing manganese, magnesium, phosphorus, calcium and silicon. It is also an anti-cancer agent containing beta carotene and phytochemicals that help in cancer prevention. Turmeric has been linked to anti inflammatory, anti bacterial, and liver and heart protecting effects. It is used to used to ease joint pain, and inflammation associated with arthritis, and is a good source of antioxidants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, they also get a couple of tablespoons of oil mixed in, in this case, I've reserved oil that I used to make a confit previously, so it's got bits of meat in there, yum!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So this is it, all in a mixing bowl…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And once it's all blended, and mixed in, I use left over plastic take away tubs, and freeze it. Then I cut off approx one quarter to mix in with their breakfast, and leave it to defrost while I take the girls on their morning walk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what do these vitamins do?
> 
> Vitamin A - vision, bone growth, reproduction and health of skin, also acts as an antioxidant.
> Vitamin B1 - also known as thiamin, helps convert carbohydrates and fats into energy. Cannot be stored in the body, but once absorbed, it is concentrated in muscle tissue.
> Vitamin B2 - also known as riboflavin, necessary for the release of energy from carbohydrates, and for normal growth and development.
> Niacin - necessary for production and breakdown of glucose, fats and amino acids, development, maintenance and function of the skin, intestine and stomach, as well as the nervous system, and in manufacturing dna.
> Pantothenic acid - a b-complex vitamin, also known as B5, helps break down proteins, and their amino acids, fats and carbohydrates enabling the production of energy.
> B6 - also known as pyridoxine, involved in the production and digestion of amino acids, and helps the body manufacture the hormone insulin. It is involved with anti bodies that fight infection, and certain chemicals that send messages between nerve cells, as well as in the production of histamine.
> Vitamin B12 - also known as cyanocobalamin or cobalamin, I sreleased from food in the stomach, and has to bind with a protein called intrinsic factor to be able to be absorbed by the body. It is necessary for normal growth and development.
> Biotin - a b-complex vitamin, essential for converting proteins, carbohydrates and fats into forms the body can use.
> Folate - another b-complex vitamins, plays a vital role in the substance that makes up our genes, working with vitamin B12 to form haemoglobin, and converting the amino acid homocysteine to methionine.
> Vitamin C - also known as ascorbic acid, is the least stable of vitamins and destroyed by processing, essential for the formation of collagen, an important structural protein that strengthens bones and blood vessels.
> Vitamin D - a fat soluble vitamin that has an essential role in the absorbption and use of calcium.
> Vitamin E - one of natures most effective antioxidants, and protects the body against free radicals.
> Vitamin K - an essential component in the body's normal blood clotting process.
> 
> Calcium - the main mineral present in bones and teeth.
> Magnesium - plays a vital role in the formation of bones, teeth, and with the minerals calcium, sodium and potassium, is involved in transmitting nerve signals.
> Phosphorus - essential for bones and teeth.
> Potassium - together with sodium and chloride potassium is involved in controlling the amount of water and maintaining the correct acid-alkali balance in the body.
> Sodium - vital for controlling the amount of water in the body, maintaining normal pH of blood, transmitting nerve signals and helping in muscular contraction.
> Sulphur - plays a key role in the manufacture of amino acids and in the conversion of carbohydrates to a form that the body can use.
> Chromium - works with insulin to help bind it to it's receptors.
> Copper - plays a key role in several body function, including production of pigment in skin, hair and eyes, production of healthy bones, teeth and heart, and the protection of body cells from chemical damage.
> Iodine - associated with thyroid function.
> Iron - an essential mineral in all cells, although only needed in small quantities, is a component of haemoglobin, the oxygen carrying protein in red blood cells.
> Selenium - is an antioxidant and part of an enzyme that protects cells from the damaging effects of free radicals.
> Zinc - needed in minute amounts, essential for the breakdown of carbohydrates, fats and proteins, in normal cell division, growth and repair.
> 
> Hope that helps explain the role of the veggies, and in combination with the meat and offal, it provides an important role I feel in a BARF diet.


----------



## sue&harvey

Wow fantastic info :thumbup: I haven't read it all yet, but wondering if this should be made a sticky? So many people (myself included) have asked for info in one place


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## PurpleCrow

Oooo definately needs to be a sticky!

Thank you so much, I've been thinking about looking into raw feeding so this is going to be a great starting point for me. I've actually only just asked my OH what he thinks about it and he seems really keen. We wont be getting a dog for a while yet but that just gives me plenty of time to do research


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## katiefranke

Glad it is useful!! I have posted loads over the last 6 months, so thought it would be good if i put everything in once place for people to read through 

Now if anyone asks we can point them at this thread :thumbup:

I am sure I havent covered everything though, so if anyone wants to know anything else or thinks I have left anything out, then please just say and I will add stuff to it.


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## Jazmine

katiefranke said:


> *What about cats?*
> 
> So as you know I feed my cats this way too  they have exactly the same kinds of things and proportions as Maggie (but obviously appropriately manageable pieces).
> 
> Cats can be much more difficult to switch over though, especially if they have been used to dry kibble being left out all day for them...so sometimes tricks have to be used in the switch!!
> 
> And one specific difference you must bear in mind is their need for taurine rich foods, as cats cannot produce their own taurine.
> 
> 'Hobbs2004 has created a similar thread in the Cat section of PF for more info on feeding cats raw, so check that out too! Please see hobbs2004 thread for feeding cats: http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/111455-thinking-feeding-raw.html
> 
> And some great info on the following links too:
> Raw Fed Cats specifically the Feeding Raw and Practical Guide pages
> 
> Raw Feeding Felines - Home Page - this is a great site of one of the members of the Raw Meaty Bones Yahoo List  Lise gives lots of details about the switch to raw for her own cats and hints and tips on how to go about it...
> 
> How to feed cats raw
> 
> Raw Cat Yahoo list


I had to give up with my cat. He is 7 and has always been spoilt rotten with his meals. He eats meaty food once a day, (usually something like Applaws, or something homemade), and grazes from kibbles throughout the day and night.

Tried switching him to raw slowly, and I really did persevere, but he is one stubborn cat. If he caught so much as a whiff of raw meat mixed with his usual stuff, he would refuse to eat it. I tried to call his bluff at one point, thinking surely he would eat when he was hungry enough, but after two days I had to back down!

He hunts mice and frogs, but never seems interested in eating them, it's like he doesn't make the connection!

Seeing as our puppy is so young, I think switching him will be much easier!


----------



## katiefranke

Jazmine said:


> I had to give up with my cat. He is 7 and has always been spoilt rotten with his meals.
> 
> ...Seeing as our puppy is so young, I think switching him will be much easier!


Ah, my cats were 18 months when I started the swicth and even they were very fussy! So I can imagine how hard it would be with an older cat. It has taken me 6 months to get one of them to eat bone (had to substitute with egg shell for quite a while)! And the other one would happily eat bone but not offal of any kind! She still wont eat it unless it is mushed up?!

Some of the people on the Raw Cat list on one of the links in that post have been trying to swicth their cats fully for years!!

However, dogs are SOOOOO much easier :thumbup: You should have no probs with your pup!


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## chestersmum

Hi 

Chester sometimes had the natures menu nuggets. Do you think it would be ok to add a raw egg + shell to these?


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## katiefranke

chestersmum said:


> Chester sometimes had the natures menu nuggets. Do you think it would be ok to add a raw egg + shell to these?


Yep I dont see why not...I personally crush it up and break the egg shell up quite a bit then pour over the meal.


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## chestersmum

Do you give the yolk & White of the egg as well or just the shell?


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## katiefranke

chestersmum said:


> Do you give the yolk & White of the egg as well or just the shell?


The whole thing, just mush it up and pour it on. For the cats when they wouldnt eat bone I sometimes gave dried and powdered egg shell to replace the bone...but this wouldnt be long term and not how I feed in general.

Some people I know give the whole egg just in the garden! lol...very messy...and then hose down the grass after...but I read that the shell needs to be crushed up small to actually make use of it, so thats why I mash it small.


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## chestersmum

Thank you as always very helpful


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## katiefranke

chestersmum said:


> Thank you as always very helpful


no probs


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## Jesi

Fab, sure this will help a lot of people out 
Wish there was something like this when I started out 6 years ago!


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## katiefranke

Jesi said:


> Fab, sure this will help a lot of people out
> Wish there was something like this when I started out 6 years ago!


Hi Jesi, welcome to the forum! 

6 years? you must know a thing or two about raw feeding now then - please do stick around and I'm sure you can lend some of your experience to others just starting out :thumbup:


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## Jesi

Katie you have done a great job and covered tonns. :thumbup:
Don't think there is anything I'd add. 



katiefranke said:


> If feeding salmon, I would suggest freezing fro 24 hours at -20C, as they can carry parasites dependant on source. The action of freezing kills the parasites as they need water to stay alive.


Oh, except on the freezing things lol ...

The parasites in salmon are only likely to be found in Pacific North-West salmon and similar species from the same area, which is unlikely to be found fresh here anyway, so not a huge worry.

Pork if you are paranoid about Trichinosis (which is virtually unknown in the UK too).

But the only one of these I would actually be concerned about is beef products, especially minced beef. This could be contaminated with Neospora caninum, and should always be frozen prior to feeding. Not that I fed it much, the protein is not a great one and are so many better meats to feed.

The good things is most suppliers deliver frozen meats so you never have to worry. :thumbup:

I used to use Landywoods for years, but changed to The Dog Food Company last year and loved them.

Although I am changing my dogs diet at the moment, but thats a different story..


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## katiefranke

Jesi said:


> The parasites in salmon are only likely to be found in Pacific North-West salmon and similar species from the same area, which is unlikely to be found fresh here anyway, so not a huge worry.
> 
> Pork if you are paranoid about Trichinosis (which is virtually unknown in the UK too).
> 
> But the only one of these I would actually be concerned about is beef products, especially minced beef. This could be contaminated with Neospora caninum, and should always be frozen prior to feeding. Not that I fed it much, the protein is not a great one and are so many better meats to feed.


Thanks jesi, good info - I thought I better add about the salmon as there are people on here not in the UK...although to be honest, I was speaking with our local butcher (also a fishmonger) and he was telling me that you have to be careful with any farmed salmon too, as they are very likely to carry parasites and also have had antibiotics put in their feed 

Personally I dont feed salmon often as it is rather expensive!! 

Re the beef - do you know how long it should be frozen? I always freeze everything just because thats how I store it all, but the only thing I sometimes feed fresh is poultry...which is handy when i have forgotten to get something out the freezer for the cats!


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## simplysardonic

Thankyou for this really useful thread


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## hobbs2004

Jesi said:


> The parasites in salmon are only likely to be found in Pacific North-West salmon and similar species from the same area, which is unlikely to be found fresh here anyway, so not a huge worry.


I wonder whether that is the reason then that on the continent raw feeders are buying salmon salar - the atlantic salmon. The problem we have is that salmon in the UK is not classified by the scientific name on the packaging. Unless i am blind. 

But you are right, most of the salmon to be had in the UK that comes from the pacific or the atlantic will be frozen anyhow.


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## Jesi

katiefranke said:


> I thought I better add about the salmon as there are people on here not in the UK...
> 
> Personally I dont feed salmon often as it is rather expensive!!
> 
> Re the beef - do you know how long it should be frozen? I always freeze everything just because thats how I store it all, but the only thing I sometimes feed fresh is poultry...which is handy when i have forgotten to get something out the freezer for the cats!


Oops - Of course. Forgot this isn't a UK only forum. 

I didn't feed salmon either, mine never liked raw fish so stuck with tinned pilchards/mackrel/sardines.

The same as the others for beef, -20 for 24hours. I only read one case of Neospora caninum in the UK. I believe it was a Boxer fed on mince from a supermarket?? I read it a while ago though, so may not be 100% on the source, believe it was a boxer though.


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## hobbs2004

Such a great thread! Deserves to be bumped until it is a well-deserved sticky!


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## Lyceum

Do you know or any other organin pre made raw suppliers? Or are darlings and natural instinct the only ones?


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## katiefranke

Lyceum said:


> Do you know or any other organin pre made raw suppliers? Or are darlings and natural instinct the only ones?


I havent come across any others that do this.

Darlings is fresh too when you receive it. Whereas Natural Instinct is frozen.

They do both have added veg in their mixes though. Although NI do a no veg version called 'Pure' but it doesnt have everything in it so you need to add offal etc depending on which one.

Darlings havent updated their website, but they do a no-veg version which you just have to ask for - which is classed as working dog food actually I think, so if you say you want working dog food you can get VAT off the price. :thumbup:

I dont use the minces so havent looked exhaustively so will have a dig around and let you know if I see anything else...

Woldsway are a good rabbit supplier and they do a 'pet food' rabbit mix...it is a complete meal as it is literally minced whole prey with guts removed, but then liver, offal, heart and bone etc included. Again you can buy the working dogs version with no VAT: http://www.woldsway.co.uk/acatalog/Pet_Meat.html All their rabbit is human consumption and prepared to human consumption standards (but I think the ground one has to have 'not fit for human consumption' stickers on them as they contain ground bone...it says full details on their site.

I am not sure the exact term for their rabbit (free-range?) but I know that the wild and farmed rabbit are good quality and they dont add antibiotics/hormones etc to their feed as a preventative like some.


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## lozb

Thanks for all this info! :thumbup:

Am feeding Baxter a 50:50 diet at the moment, going to gradually make it more 'raw' as we go.... I'm learning the ropes, so to speak, about feeding raw but I have to say - he much, much, much prefers to chomp on a lamb/pork chop/bone than at his kibble! 
He's had 2 chicken pieces for his tea/supper.... I'd got them reduced at the supermarket, froze them that day... half defrosted and he thoroughly enjoyed them!

Have to say - his poo's are much smaller, as had been said, which is brill - means less waste in his food and less for me to pick up!


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## katiefranke

lozb said:


> Have to say - his poo's are much smaller, as had been said, which is brill - means less waste in his food and less for me to pick up!


Great isnt it?!!  Just one of the many benefits...


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## katiefranke

Still not a sticky?


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## lozb

Called at a butchers this morning...

Carrier bag FULL of meat... mince, steaks, kidney... loads.... plus a rather large bone.... all for the grand sum of £2 :thumbup:

Happy, happy Baxter! :thumbup:


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## hobbs2004

Oh wow! What a great deal!!! How did you wiggle that?


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## lozb

hobbs2004 said:


> Oh wow! What a great deal!!! How did you wiggle that?


Must have been the wiggle as I walked 

hehehe....

Very nice butcher, had a chat with him first about feeding raw, said he has a few customers who he gives bones/meat to for their dogs. I won't call too often, don't want to push it, but will definitely go again!!!


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## Jesi

lozb said:


> Called at a butchers this morning...
> 
> Carrier bag FULL of meat... mince, steaks, kidney... loads.... plus a rather large bone.... all for the grand sum of £2 :thumbup:
> 
> Happy, happy Baxter! :thumbup:


Our butcher is great like that, but he did sometimes give me marrow bones which I didn't feed but felt bad saying I didn't want lol So I'd be stuck with them!

He used to sell me carrier bags full of chicken carcasses (usually 4 bagsa time) at 50p a bag! You had to get to him early though as a lot of raw feeders go to him, can see why


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## katiefranke

wow, you guys have some great butchers!!! :thumbup:


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## Jesi

My boy hasn't had any raw in the last few weeks since his Pancreatitis diagnosis. I'm not confident to feed him any as I don't know what a Pancreatic dog can have. So he's been on dry.

BUT I am due to see a Holistic vet next week who is going to help me get him back onto a natural diet and eventually back onto full raw, just with a few changes. Soo excited, I though he'd have to be on at least a 50/50 raw comercial diet, so I'm chuffed. 

Thought I'd share lol ...


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## katiefranke

Jesi said:


> BUT I am due to see a Holistic vet next week who is going to help me get him back onto a natural diet and eventually back onto full raw, just with a few changes. Soo excited, I though he'd have to be on at least a 50/50 raw comercial diet, so I'm chuffed.
> 
> Thought I'd share lol ...


thats brilliant news jesi! its great when you can find a pro-raw vet who can help you :thumbup:


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## alaun

Great thread - I've been trying to find the one with photos too (I think it was sleeping Lion's), the pics we're great to help people preparing carcassess etc for the first time. Could it be added to this sticky?

My butcher is ace too - he gives us plenty of bones and sheep and ox hearts. Not only that but he does the best pork pies in history:thumbup:


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## katiefranke

alaun said:


> Great thread - I've been trying to find the one with photos too (I think it was sleeping Lion's), the pics we're great to help people preparing carcassess etc for the first time. Could it be added to this sticky?


Yes good idea - I was thinking about that yesterday! Thanks for reminding me, I will go find it and add it soon when I add the puppy info too. :thumbup:


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## lozb

Just wanted to add here.... since starting giving Baxter more raw food than kibble, I'd say we're on 80/20 at the moment... his coat is smoother, softer and looks amazing! :thumbup:
The difference is amazing. Strolking/petting him now feels like he's been in the wash with the most expensive fabric softener going!


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## alaun

One of my pups has been difficult to get weight on. We've fed a mix of raw and kibble but recently I have reduced the kibble and increased the raw and oh my goodness she is looking fantastic. Her coat is glossy and she has now caught up with her sister. :thumbup:


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## katiefranke

alaun said:


> One of my pups has been difficult to get weight on. We've fed a mix of raw and kibble but recently I have reduced the kibble and increased the raw and oh my goodness she is looking fantastic. Her coat is glossy and she has now caught up with her sister. :thumbup:


Brill, thats great news!!


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## SlingDash

Can anybody supply a shopping list for a 'newbie' raw food diet household please? We simply don't know where to begin! This is fascinating, but we are simply too confused by all the conflicting information there is out there about moving to a raw diet.

Do we simply buy whole fresh chickens and let the dogs eat the entire thing raw (I've seen this being done in many videos!)? Is frozen minced meat OK? Can dogs eat beef? I've seen several foods advertised as "contains no beef" as if this had some sort of health benefit?

SUCH confusion here, and advice would be very much appreciated! We have recently switched to what we thought was the best dry/moist food combination we could find, but since joining this forum, our eyes have been widely opened, but our heads wildly confused by the whole issue!


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## katiefranke

SlingDash said:


> Can anybody supply a shopping list for a 'newbie' raw food diet household please? We simply don't know where to begin! This is fascinating, but we are simply too confused by all the conflicting information there is out there about moving to a raw diet.


Hi there! I will try and answer all your questions, but have also PMd you - if you PM me your email address I will send you an eBook as well which might be useful.

I think when looking at a raw diet, you do really need to do a little research to decide if you can come to terms with idea - have a look at my 'the basics' post and the 'resources' posts in this thread for a good starting point.



SlingDash said:


> Do we simply buy whole fresh chickens and let the dogs eat the entire thing raw (I've seen this being done in many videos!)?


Once you have worked out the basics of how much your dog needs per day & week, you can feed any way you like. Some like to feed two meals a day (so obviously they have to be a bit smaller like 1/4 chicken) some feed once a day, so could be a 1/2 chicken and some feed one large meal and then one smaller meal the following day etc...so the beauty is it is really up to you and your dogs! In the beginning I would suggest starting with quarters though as they probably wouldnt know what to do with a whole chicken! lol 



SlingDash said:


> Is frozen minced meat OK?


yes you can - frozen or defrosted - however, I personally do not and would not feed mince as a regular part of the diet as the biggest benefits of raw come from eating quality whole raw foods for the teeth and gum cleaning benefits.



SlingDash said:


> Can dogs eat beef? I've seen several foods advertised as "contains no beef" as if this had some sort of health benefit?


Yes dogs can eat pretty much ANY meat you can think of...however, some dogs have allergies to things (although quite rare) so you would need to obviously adjust to your dog. however, many people find that the 'meat' they might be allergic too in processed foods they are not allergic to at all in fresh human grade raw meat...a prime example is my maggie who was allergic to chicken in processed foods, but when eating it raw is fine! beef WAS one of the most common food allergies in dogs but this was because it was also the MOST COMMON at one point...funnily enough, now that chicken appears to be the most common, chicken is the one that most dogs are allergic too! so i think that many that state no beef is from the old thoughts around this...



SlingDash said:


> SUCH confusion here, and advice would be very much appreciated! We have recently switched to what we thought was the best dry/moist food combination we could find, but since joining this forum, our eyes have been widely opened, but our heads wildly confused by the whole issue!


If you are happy feeding what you are, then by all means carry on if you are happy and your dog is good on it. However, if you feel that feeding raw would actually be the best way to feed as many of us do, then have a bit more of a read and give it a go!

I hope that helps - but ask away with any more questions


----------



## SlingDash

Thanks for the comprehensive reply! I haven't read much yet, as have only just joined the forum and received your email (thanks again for that), but will continue to do so.

I'm assuming the horror stories about feeding chicken bones are total nonsense then? I'd be really nervous to see and hear them crunching on raw chicken bones, but that's probably because we've all been brainwashed to believe they are harmful? There are many videos on YouTube about this diet - it would be good to have some links to recommended videos. There are far too many for a newcomer to this diet to make sense of which are good and which are bad.

What would you recomment we start with? A chicken or a piece of raw liver or other offal from the supermarket? I am looking forward to seeing their faces that first time!


----------



## lozb

Hey Slingdash! I started feeding our Baxter raw food a while back and haven't looked back!

We went to the vets today - I asked the vet nurse what she thought about the BARF diet... "I'd feed mine that way if I had the time" Not quite sure what she meant but I take it as a positive angle from a pro about the diet!!  

I've found that Baxter likes Chicken quarters, whole, he crunches away and loves them! Same with duck!
He's not over keen on pork steaks/chops unless I chop them up for him... lazy boy!
He loves a beef joint, takes a while for him to get through it and it helps if I cut into it first, to give him a 'head start'..
He does like mince - I used to cook it but he prefers it raw now.
Liver/Kidney - prefers in very small doses..
I also give him apple, carrots, other bits of veg.
Lamb.. he loves lamb too!

The local butcher sells us bags of food for £2.... :thumbup:
There was a butcher in Cromer (whilst on holiday) with bags of off-cuts for nothing! Grabbed a few bags and Baxter loved them all! Butchers will happily sell you their off-cuts, or 'dogmince' for cheap, or even for free. A local farm-shop has bones available for free too!

Good luck, if you decide to go for it! :thumbup:


----------



## SlingDash

I have just spoken to the rest of the family about this diet, and it was met with shrieks of horror and disbelief!!!

*"RAW meat?! WHAT???"*

*"I'm not feeding our dogs raw chicken - let alone chicken bones!"*

Just two of the initial responses! :001_unsure:

I wonder how they'd react if they could see what goes into some of the commercial foods we have fed in the past!

I'm going to keep talking to them and showing them some of the information from this website and others, and I'd like to go to the butcher first thing in the morning to get their first meal.

What should I ask for? I've been before and asked for any off-cuts of bone for them to chew, but if this is going to be a regular thing, then i'll need a 'shopping list'! Any tips please?


----------



## lozb

SlingDash said:


> I have just spoken to the rest of the family about this diet, and it was met with shrieks of horror and disbelief!!!
> 
> *"RAW meat?! WHAT???"*
> 
> *"I'm not feeding our dogs raw chicken - let alone chicken bones!"*
> 
> Just two of the initial responses! :001_unsure:
> 
> I wonder how they'd react if they could see what goes into some of the commercial foods we have fed in the past!
> 
> I'm going to keep talking to them and showing them some of the information from this website and others, and I'd like to go to the butcher first thing in the morning to get their first meal.
> 
> What should I ask for? I've been before and asked for any off-cuts of bone for them to chew, but if this is going to be a regular thing, then i'll need a 'shopping list'! Any tips please?


good luck with the reaction... I still get it now! 
A friend asked today 'Did you check with the vet that it was okay to feed raw'...
Okay? It's the most natural food for them to eat!
It's not for everyone, I understand that totally 
First time I went in my local butchers I said 'Have you any bones/meat for my dog' He knew exactly what to give - been asked many, many times. In fact, I saw an old friend yesterday who worked at a butchers about 15 years ago and she remembered giving meat specifically for dogs!
Check your supermarkets too - I always hit the reduced counter and stock up on bits for the freezer!

I'm sure you'll get more advice than the little I've given you!
xx


----------



## SlingDash

> *First time I went in my local butchers I said 'Have you any bones/meat for my dog' He knew exactly what to give - been asked many, many times*. In fact, I saw an old friend yesterday who worked at a butchers about 15 years ago and she remembered giving meat specifically for dogs!
> Check your supermarkets too - I always hit the reduced counter and stock up on bits for the freezer![/B]


I bet that's what happened in the 'olden days' all the time! I must ask my grandparents what they used to do. I'm guessing there was no canned meat or bags of kibble back then!



> *I'm sure you'll get more advice than the little I've given you!*


Not at all - you've been extremely friendly and helpful - as have many other people in this great forum! I'm so glad I found it! Thank you so much and thanks to everybody else who's been so kind, helpful and supportive!

:thumbup:


----------



## SlingDash

Scrub what I posted here before (if anybody read it). We've just been to the butcher and the supermarket and brought home a bag of goodies!

The butcher was really friendly and helpful, and said he'd had quite a few people enquiring about the raw meat and bone diet.

What we have is:

*Ribs* (beef, I think, but could be pork)
*Pig's liver*
*Beef minced meat from the supermarket*

I have just given the dogs a rib each, and they all love them! I am very concerned, though, because our big boy has just crunched his way through a whole rib, and is now starting on his second! I am sure he is swallowing huge chunks of sharp bone, and I'm starting to panic! Both bitches are still nibbling away at the meat on their bones on the lawn, and I don't think their jaws are strong enough to crunch through the bone.

Now we need to decide what to do with this liver and the minced beef.

Do we really just stick it in a bowl and let them eat it completely raw? Apologies if I sound overly-concerned, but this is brand new (this very morning!) to us, and we don't want to harm our beloved pack in any way.

One more thing concerns me. This was said early on in this very topic...



> I started with raw chicken breast (no bone) for the first couple of meals and then went to chicken breast & wing


...yet the link to dispelling common myths says you should not feed small chicken bones from places such as chicken wings!

Still a little confused for us to know exactly what we can and cannot feed!

--------------------------------------------------

And now I've just seen this at the BARF UK website:



> Just sticking to one meat source is no good - you don't get all your nutrients. *Do not feed pork*. If your dog has a skin or bowel problem, *do not feed beef initially* until you know that this will not cause hypersensitivity.


We have just fed several pork ribs to our dogs, and have purchased a packet of raw minced beef after reading several different topics on the BARF diet!

There is far too much conflicting information about this diet, so I think we're going to stick with the best moist/dry food combination we can find. A real shame, because we really wanted to give this a go.


----------



## SlingDash

Post removed.

Please see previous post.


----------



## katiefranke

SlingDash said:


> - I am very concerned, though, because our big boy has just crunched his way through a whole rib, and is now starting on his second! I am sure he is swallowing huge chunks of sharp bone, and I'm starting to panic!
> 
> - Now we need to decide what to do with this liver and the minced beef.
> Do we really just stick it in a bowl and let them eat it completely raw?
> 
> - ...yet the link to dispelling common myths says you should not feed small chicken bones from places such as chicken wings!
> 
> - And now I've just seen this at the BARF UK website:...We have just fed several pork ribs to our dogs, and have purchased a packet of raw minced beef after reading several different topics on the BARF diet!


*hi slingdash, i cant help but feel you have maybe rushed into this slightly then paniced and decided to stop!*

there is a lot of info yes, but then there is a lot of info on all sorts of things online and if you believe everything or dont check the sources, you will be just as confused as to every other decision you ever make.

i will try and answer your questions above - but i would stongly urge you to read through the series of posts in this thread properly and check out the further resources before you go any further if you are worried.

if you read the brief eBook i sent to you on email it answers many of your questions.



SlingDash said:


> *- I am very concerned, though, because our big boy has just crunched his way through a whole rib, and is now starting on his second! I am sure he is swallowing huge chunks of sharp bone, and I'm starting to panic!*


dogs will get used to raw at different paces - and their jaws have to build up the strength if fed processed until now. as i said in my original 'basics' post it is usually good to start with one protein source and get them used to it and then add something else etc etc. if you are worried about bone start with meat only and then gradually add bone. the biggest thing is not to feed something too small - so appropriately sized for your dogs so that they cannot swallow bone whole! i.e. personally i only feed ribs in a slab of a few joined together, never one at a time as they can be swallowed the wrong way.



SlingDash said:


> * - Now we need to decide what to do with this liver and the minced beef.
> Do we really just stick it in a bowl and let them eat it completely raw? *


I would suggest going VERY easy on the offal & liver until they are settled on raw and even then introduce VERY slowly and in TINY pieces until you know how they will react. some tolerate it immediately but for some you end with very VERY loose poops if you feed to much! remember, introduce everything gradulally, there is no rush.

the minced beef will be fine as a meal. just put it raw into a bowl for them to the right weight.



SlingDash said:


> * - ...yet the link to dispelling common myths says you should not feed small chicken bones from places such as chicken wings!*


Yes if you read my basics post at the beginning, you will see i always suggest feeding appropriate sizes - so not a chicken wing or a small pieces like a neck on its own for a dog that is medium or large...however, what i said i do feed is the wing still ATTACHED to the breast, so it is one large chunk they have to work at and crunch up. this is why the dispelling the myths site says not to feed small bones, as yes, then they would be health hazard for anything other than the smallest dog.



SlingDash said:


> * - And now I've just seen this at the BARF UK website:...We have just fed several pork ribs to our dogs, and have purchased a packet of raw minced beef after reading several different topics on the BARF diet!*


If you read through my info i have posted in the series of posts on how to feed in this thread, you will see i mention pork. in the UK it is fine to feed pork. some still choose not to. however, that is a personal choice and i do feed free-range pork meat and ribs to my dog and cats. HOWEVER, outside the UK you need to check for Aujeskys disease which pork can carry. the uk is clear of this so it is not an issue for us. you may also like to freeze pork and beef for 48 hours before defrosting and feeding which would kill any parasites. this is why it is often simpler to start with chicken and poultry as this is not a worry.

also as i think i said to you before, unless your dog has had/shown allergies to things that contain beef previously then feeding beef shouldnt be an issue. BUT, as i have said, i would suggest introducing one protein at a time, be that chicken, pork, beef, whatever...

*I would strongly suggest that if you are interested in this way of feeding you have a thorough read of the myths site (the link is also in my signature below) and discuss these answers with your family. Also read that Tom Lonsdale book i sent to you - it is quite short, answers many of your questions and gives you all the basics.*

Of course if you happy feeding kibble and wet, then feel free, i would just hate to think you are only not feeding raw because you rushed in and have not read and considered the available info...


----------



## SlingDash

> hi slingdash, i cant help but feel you have maybe rushed into this slightly then paniced and decided to stop! there is a lot of info yes, but then there is a lot of info on all sorts of things online and if you believe everything or dont check the sources, you will be just as confused as to every other decision you ever make.


I think that's exactly what we've done! :blushing:

It's just that we wanted to get onto this diet ASAP because it sounds like it could be the very best thing we can do for our babies, yet, at the same time, we want them to be safe. We have probably tried to read as much as possible in too short a time and have come across so many conflicting opinions and advice, that it's all been a bit overwhelming! Information overload as they say!

Your advice has been invaluable so far, so we will heed it alone and simply concentrate on the links and information you have supplied us with for the time being. Thanks so much again for that.

They did have their first raw meal this morning, and so far have been absolutely fine. Just been for a long walk and all poohs are normal so far! It's probably a little early to tell though.

All dogs had a couple of pork ribs, and the two younger dogs ate virtually the whole thing (I took the smaller bits at the end off them) - the older dog simply nibbling the meat and small amount of fat that was left on them.

Our older dog LOVED the liver and had a couple of chunks. Our little boy wouldn't touch the liver to start with, yet snaffled it up in the mixture of raw turkey and Nature Diet that we mixed it with.

We have processed a mixture of liver, raw turkey breast and raw turkey mince (no more bones today) and mixed it with a small amount of fresh veg and a sachet of Nature Diet. We have a few Nature Diets remaining, so will gradually introduce the raw meat over the next few days while continuing to study hard!

Thanks again for all your help - we won't give up just yet!


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## sue&harvey

Hiya are Turkey drumsticks ok to feed?

Thanks


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## katiefranke

SlingDash said:


> I think that's exactly what we've done! :blushing:


lol, thats ok! dont worry you are not alone with how you are feeling - it is scary to begin with, but i promise you, once you take the plunge and feed for literally a couple of weeks you suddenly wonder what you were so worried about!!!

it gets easier and easier and you dont have a panic attack every time they eat something with bone in, honest! 

well it sounds like you are doing very well with them already anyway, so keep at it with what you are doing, just dont rush anything. take your time to read up. there are lots of different conflicting pieces of info out there - but personally i weighed them up and chose what made most logical sense to me. if there was something that particularly worried me, i asked the question on here and on the Raw Meaty Bones & rawfeeding yahoo lists (they have loads of great and knowledgeable people on there).

good luck - you'll get there! :thumbup:


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## katiefranke

sue&harvey said:


> Hiya are Turkey drumsticks ok to feed?


Yep - you dont want to feed the weight bearing bones of 'large ungulates' so cows etc...but turkey is fine I would say.

They are usually pretty massive though so would do for a couple of feeds at least for Harvey.

I only occasionally give these to maggie and I take it off her before she gets to the end as there is usually a rather large and awkward lump of bone which I dont want her swallowing...but then I am over-protective so I am sure others just let them get on with it! lol


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## SlingDash

Thanks Katie.

I have just learned about the 'reputation' button, so have sent you some 'reputation' by way of thanks - I think!

:thumbup:


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## sue&harvey

katiefranke said:


> Yep - you dont want to feed the weight bearing bones of 'large ungulates' so cows etc...but turkey is fine I would say.
> 
> They are usually pretty massive though so would do for a couple of feeds at least for Harvey.
> 
> I only occasionally give these to maggie and I take it off her before she gets to the end as there is usually a rather large and awkward lump of bone which I dont want her swallowing...but then I am over-protective so I am sure others just let them get on with it! lol


Thanks for that  another stupid question, what is the average weight of a chicken thigh


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## alaun

Hi Slingdash

when we first started feeding raw we were pretty worried too. I had grown up with my mum telling me not to feed chicken (cooked or raw), so I have had to relearn the rules.

We started gradually and are still on the path to full raw - which is working for us and seems to be a natural progression - and still learning as we go.

We started by giving raw mince and tripe, and very gradually introduced chicken wings. We give cooked liver in tiny pieces as a training aid. 

Don't give up, just take it at your own pace. It is worth it in the long run. :thumbup:


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## SlingDash

I am absolutely fine with feeding the raw meats, offal and large 'gnawing' bones - it's just the small bones that terrify me!

I'm sure our little lad was swallowing whole huge chunks of bone this morning (pork rib), and I just had to take the small remaining bits off him 'just in case'. Some of them were horrendously sharp!

He has been for a pooh since, and is fine this evening, so hopefully it will be OK.

Feeding the first chicken wing (or was it leg??) will be panic stations - I just know it!!!


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## katiefranke

SlingDash said:


> I have just learned about the 'reputation' button, so have sent you some 'reputation' by way of thanks - I think!
> 
> :thumbup:


Thank you 



sue&harvey said:


> another stupid question, what is the average weight of a chicken thigh


dont worry nothing is a stupid question! 

well when i portion up the medium size chickens I get, I do a leg and thigh quarter which are around 230g or so (so a meal for maggie).

however, if you mean just the thigh with bone in, i give these to the cats for their whole day allowance and so they must be just over 100g - maybe 120g (my cats leave a bit of the bone as it is a little big for them so it makes it about 100g for them)


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## lozb

Just thought I'd mention.... to UK members... I went to Tesco earlier.. their fresh chickens are £1.50kg...I got a huge thing for £3.35....:thumbup: Think it's halfprice!


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## katiefranke

lozb said:


> Just thought I'd mention.... to UK members... I went to Tesco earlier.. their fresh chickens are £1.50kg...I got a huge thing for £3.35....:thumbup: Think it's halfprice!


oooo cool, thanks lozb :thumbup:


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## SlingDash

Oh dear.

Up several times during the night for visits to the lawn with the squits for our big boy!

The other two are fine, but he was the one eating huge chunks of bone. I sincerely hope there is no blockage anywhere!



I have now read through the Raw, Meaty Bones booklet, and found the following contradiction in it:

*"Poultry wings suitable for very small dogs only"*

*"Whole chickens make a good meal for all sizes of dog"*

Which is true? I have seen lots of videos on YouTube where huge mastiffs are eating entire chicken carcasses - wings and all!


----------



## katiefranke

SlingDash said:


> I have now read through the Raw, Meaty Bones booklet, and found the following contradiction in it:
> 
> *"Poultry wings suitable for very small dogs only"*
> 
> *"Whole chickens make a good meal for all sizes of dog"*
> 
> Which is true? I have seen lots of videos on YouTube where huge mastiffs are eating entire chicken carcasses - wings and all!


lol!!! both are true - thats what I was trying to say before 

wings on their own are a NO NO for large dogs.

wings ATTACHED to the body of the chicken in a quarter or half or whole are :thumbup:

So basically, if it is all attached, they have to chomp and tear and crunch and break it off into bits.

If it is a wing on its own, they can get it in their mouths, crunch it once and potentially gulp it down in one piece! 

Get it ?? 

Obviously once they get to the end of the meal, they potentially have something quite small left to eat, but by that time they are in the chomping up mood and are not ravenous as they have eaten most of their meal, so are unlikely to suddenly gulp and swallow the small end bit (although sometimes it is wise to remove this last bit if you are not sure and it is an awkward and small shaped bone).


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## alaun

Hey Katie, I've just found sleeping lion's post with the piccies. I wonder if there is a way it could be added to yours other than a link?


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## SlingDash

alaun said:


> Hey Katie, I've just found sleeping lion's post with the piccies. I wonder if there is a way it could be added to yours other than a link?


That would be great!

Sorry Katie - I realised you'd already answered that point about wings after I'd made the post! so much to read! So much info to plough through - our heads are spinning!!!

Surely a dog can easily rip a chicken wing off the carcass, though, whcih means they would soon be chomping on that wing alone - which is not attached to tha carcass?


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## katiefranke

SlingDash said:


> Surely a dog can easily rip a chicken wing off the carcass, though, whcih means they would soon be chomping on that wing alone - which is not attached to tha carcass?


Well potentially yes, but in all the time I have been feeding chicken I have never seen a dog rip off and gulp a wing in one piece, they tend to use the big lump as leverage to get hold of it and start to crunch and then swallow pieces big enough to chew...and if I am ever worried I just hold the smaller pieces until maggie chomps it up...(I am slightly overprotective though so most people wont do this!)


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## katiefranke

alaun said:


> Hey Katie, I've just found sleeping lion's post with the piccies. I wonder if there is a way it could be added to yours other than a link?


Ah yes, can you send me the link and I will work out if we can combine them -I will try and put it in higher up in the thread somehow.


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## SlingDash

> I am *slightly* overprotective though so most people wont do this!


Any desire to tweak that opinion slightly since we came along?









:lol:


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## Blobbet

Firstly just want to say hi all as im new to the forum!

i have two small dogs a 6 1/2 year old yorkie and a 15 month old english toy terrier and basically am planning to start them on a raw diet in the next week or so,
I discovered the horrors of commercial pet food only a few months ago and feel terrible that my yorkie has been fed on that rubbish her whole life !  hopefully its not too late to reverse the damage done...
Since my discovery ive spent many hours reading alot about the raw diet and definately want to give it a try 

I thought it would be best if i got them some raw chicken thighs without bones in to start with just for mabye 2-3 days and then give thighs with bone in just to break them in gently lol 

Also i have a question about eggs, i read on quite a few sites people saying that raw egg white or something does something bad to some sort of vitamin B (cant remember the details too well lol) but was a bit concerned, also i have read that theres not really any nutritional differences of raw and cooked egg so whats peoples opinions on that?


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## SlingDash

> I discovered the horrors of commercial pet food only a few months ago and feel terrible that my yorkie has been fed on that rubbish her whole life


Yep - join the club! 

Not sure about eggs - apart from the fact that you shouldn't feed too many. As they form such a tiny part of the diet, I can't see them doing any harm.


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## katiefranke

Hello! Welcome to the forum and glad to hear you are giving raw a go! 

Starting with chicken is a good choice as long as your dogs have never shown a problem with this protein source. I personally started with chicken breast and thighs without bone for a couple of days and then started giving bone-in pieces after that.

Once your dog is settled on this (normally takes a few days), then I would add another protein source, maybe lamb or beef etc and feed chicken + this new protein for a further few days etc etc...building up gradually. Only adding TINY pieces of offal later on...

*RAW EGGS:* Regarding the eggs, if you only fed egg whites and loads of them, then you could have an issue...however, feeding whole eggs (white & yolk) would mean it balances out. We are only talking about problems if you fed masses of egg whites and nothing else!

I would suggest not feeding raw eggs for a little while though as they can make dogs a bit loose...get your dogs settled on raw and then add a whole egg crushed up with shell and all to one of their meals - perhaps share between them and see how they go.

Some dogs can tolerate a few eggs at a time, some only 1/2 an egg...so build up gradually and like everything, feed to tolerance 

Personally, with my own dog who is 17.5kg, now that she has been on raw for quite a while, I normally try and feed 1-2 eggs per week. I give the cats 1/2 an egg between them weekly.

You dont have to feed egg at all, but they are quite a nutritious meal/addition to a meal.


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## Blobbet

Thanks for the info 

My golden rule for doing raw is gonna be 'take it slow!!' 
really hope they take to it. 
I did give them a small amount of raw minced beef a few weeks ago just to see what they would do with it , Charlie (the ETT) scoffed the lot in 2 seconds ! and Tammy (yorkie) picked a bit up n spat it out n looked at charlie scoffing hers n then wolfed hers down too hehe. They even ate that only an hour after they had their breakfast and didnt even have any upset stomachs :thumbup: guess thats a good sign lol


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## katiefranke

Blobbet said:


> My golden rule for doing raw is gonna be 'take it slow!!'


Good plan!! :thumbup: Well good luck with it - and keep us posted.

Let us know if you have any questions or worries


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## m'lady

with my dog,we food combine.
her treats are raw foods.she is 8 mnths old and is thriving.
she eats salads and really enjoys them.
we feed our dog meals that are fit for us too.

Easy Food Combining: Article / My Vegan dog Lady


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## SlingDash

I think a vegan dog is controversial to say the VERY least, but that's for another topic. We are a household of veggie humans, but would not dream of forcing our morals onto our pack of dogs - who are carnivorous by their very nature.

We have completely given up on the raw meaty bones diet, thanks to discovering huge shards of chicken bones in several piles of pooh this week, and having come home today to a pile of sick on the carpet that was also full of sharp chicken bones from the dogs' supper last night. 

We simply do not think that our dogs eating shards of bone is in any way safe, and if some harm were to come to them as a result of what we're feeding them, then we couldn't live with ourselves.

We are thinking of moving to Prize Choice frozen meats. Does an7ybody have any opinions on their products? They do frozen tripe (which we've tried, and the pack loves it!), heart chunks, meat chunks, frozen packets of rabbit, lamb, chicken and other meats etc, etc - their range is huge, and their product looks good, but we'd really appreciate other people's opinions.

We're still going to buy fresh meat from the supermarket, and are more than happy to supplement with plenty of fresh liver, kidney and heart etc, so is there anything wrong with feeding a raw meat diet but simply cutting out the bones from it?


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## katiefranke

SlingDash said:


> We're still going to buy fresh meat from the supermarket, and are more than happy to supplement with plenty of fresh liver, kidney and heart etc, so is there anything wrong with feeding a raw meat diet but simply cutting out the bones from it?


Personally I do not rate any of the commerical minces myself as have heard a lot of bad things about many of them (gone bad, high bacteria counts, mincing increasing bacteria and depletes nutrients, dubious sources, you cant know what is going into them etc etc)...however, many people do feed them quite happily and if you wish to go down this route, just ensure that the one you choose has ground bone included.

That way you can include bone still. It is an essential part of the diet as it balances the calcium to phosphorous ratio. The only way to cut it out completely is to supplement with calcium, but this starts getting tricky and so I wouldnt recommend unless someone really had to due to a health issue etc, as you need to balance it carefully with the phosphorous intake as I said...

PS: all of the above that you describe is quite common for a dog transitioning to a raw diet, especially if they have had too much bone, or too much too quickly etc - and are signs that the dogs digestive system is not quite used to it as yet and hasnt produced the high enough level of acid in the stomach to dissolve the bone fully.

this is why i always recommend sticking to one protein source initally, feeding without bone maybe for the first few meals, then adding appropriately sized bone-in meals and building up from there...


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## Ditsy42

SlingDash said:


> I think a vegan dog is controversial to say the VERY least, but that's for another topic. We are a household of veggie humans, but would not dream of forcing our morals onto our pack of dogs - who are carnivorous by their very nature.
> 
> We have completely given up on the raw meaty bones diet, thanks to discovering huge shards of chicken bones in several piles of pooh this week, and having come home today to a pile of sick on the carpet that was also full of sharp chicken bones from the dogs' supper last night.
> 
> We simply do not think that our dogs eating shards of bone is in any way safe, and if some harm were to come to them as a result of what we're feeding them, then we couldn't live with ourselves.
> 
> We are thinking of moving to Prize Choice frozen meats. Does an7ybody have any opinions on their products? They do frozen tripe (which we've tried, and the pack loves it!), heart chunks, meat chunks, frozen packets of rabbit, lamb, chicken and other meats etc, etc - their range is huge, and their product looks good, but we'd really appreciate other people's opinions.
> 
> We're still going to buy fresh meat from the supermarket, and are more than happy to supplement with plenty of fresh liver, kidney and heart etc, so is there anything wrong with feeding a raw meat diet but simply cutting out the bones from it?


I use DAF (Durham Animal Feeds), they deliver widely and r very good quality 
Durham Animal Feeds :: DAF Petfood - Durham Animal Feeds


----------



## Blobbet

I think prize choice is alright to use, id say its probably just as good as the minces from anywhere else eg. DAF as mentioned before and similar places like the dog food company and lanywoods etc. 
The only thing im not sure on is the bone content as it only says 'MAY contain bones - 4g/100g'


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## katiefranke

Depends what area you are in, but these guys state the % of everything in their minces: Raw To Go

The Dog Food Company supply a lot of foods other than minces - loads of whole stuff and if you call them they can source pretty much anything for you - very helpful - and they deliver all over the country. MUCH better quality than a lot of the others on the market. The Dog Food Company

Landywoods and Prize Choice are two of the worst in my honest opinion - seen some HORRID smelling minces appear from them...and as you say, they dont state exact %. Just have a search of Landywoods on here and around different forums and lots of bad reports on wrong deliveries, late deliveries, food gone off etc etc...  I think Prize Choice is more because it is stocked at [email protected] and you dont know how long it has been at the shop, how it was shipped and stored etc, or if someone left the freezer open (regular occurrence in my local one)...

It also depends on what you are looking for - muscle meat, meaty bones and offal ground into the 80 10 10 ratio...or BARF-style with pulped vegetables included too...each do different things, so check carefully as to what you are getting...

DAF say their products follow a BARF-style diet: Durham Animal Feeds but they dont state their breakdown...but I know a lot of people on here use them.

If you want high-end minces, then you are looking at something like Darlings or Natural Instinct, but both really do come at a premium when you can get the raw ingredients yourself for much less and at the same quality (or better)...


----------



## Malmum

We get all our food from the dog food co and it's lovely - all of it. The turkey necks look a bit yukky, like an elephants trunk i'd imagine but the dogs love them and look very funny walking around with them in their mouths trying to find the perfect spot to devour them, lol.

One of our Mals went to the vet recently with ONE case of vomiting and obvious pain in his abdomen. When asked what he'd had for dinner the night before and I said a chicken carcass she was livivd!
Went on to say how she doesn't understand this "fad raw feeding" thing and thought it was obviously an obstruction caused by the carcass - despite the fact he's been barf fed for over five years. She then went on to tell me how even the wolves she'd worked with at a sanctuary were fed KIBBLE - how awfull!!! Even worse she stated "we do lose some you know" at a time when I was really worried about the boy - made me feel like a potential murderer! 

One x ray later and no obstruction, blood tests revealed Pancreatitis which can go hand in hand with Hypothyroidism - which he has. I was SO angry, went back to my usual vet at the practice (head vet) and made a copmlaint.
I said i'm not a fool, have done loads of research into the barf diet and suggested that before she made such an assumption again, she should do likewise. Was also greatly offended that she had the cheek to recommend my changing him to Hill's Science Plan - so as I could bump up her wages a little I feel - grr! 

Marty had such bad problems as a pup when we got him, constant diarrhoea like water. All different kinds of tests all different kinds of diet advised by the vet - the first being Hill's prescprition (of course) and nothing helped, nothing found in repeat blood tests either. Boiled chicken and rice was the same, the rice came out like it went in and the rest was like pee.
Poor boy was like this for around two months til we found out about BARF on the net and with no word of a lie, within TWO DAYS he did his first solid poo. Have not looked back, even our chihuahua x yorkie and shitzu x yorkie love barf, tripe and chicken wings being a favourite if theirs.
When I read aout people having tummy probs with kibble I just wish they'd give BARF a try - it's so easy once you get the hang of it and once all the veg/organs have been portioned up and frozen, it's just a matter of going to the freezer and taking out a days supply - how easy is that? :

Lovely thread and deserved sticky.


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## katiefranke

Malmum said:


> She then went on to tell me how even the wolves she'd worked with at a sanctuary were fed KIBBLE - how awfull!!!


how terrible!!! 



malmum said:


> Was also greatly offended that she had the cheek to recommend my changing him to Hill's Science Plan - so as I could bump up her wages a little I feel - grr!


That seems to be the standard response to all problems! Lets stick them on science plan - I dont understand how the vets sell that crap  ...it just really shows how little they understand about proper canine nutrition 



malmum said:


> Poor boy was like this for around two months til we found out about BARF on the net and with no word of a lie, within TWO DAYS he did his first solid poo. Have not looked back


Thats brilliant to hear how well he is on it and how quickly he took to it! I know what you mean about wanting people to give it a go, especially when they have had so many problems with commercial foods - I honestly havent come across a dog yet that doesnt do well on a raw diet. Its brill :thumbup:


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## Blobbet

katiefranke said:


> Depends what area you are in, but these guys state the % of everything in their minces: Raw To Go
> 
> The Dog Food Company supply a lot of foods other than minces - loads of whole stuff and if you call them they can source pretty much anything for you - very helpful - and they deliver all over the country. MUCH better quality than a lot of the others on the market. The Dog Food Company
> 
> Landywoods and Prize Choice are two of the worst in my honest opinion - seen some HORRID smelling minces appear from them...and as you say, they dont state exact %. Just have a search of Landywoods on here and around different forums and lots of bad reports on wrong deliveries, late deliveries, food gone off etc etc...  I think Prize Choice is more because it is stocked at [email protected] and you dont know how long it has been at the shop, how it was shipped and stored etc, or if someone left the freezer open (regular occurrence in my local one)...
> 
> It also depends on what you are looking for - muscle meat, meaty bones and offal ground into the 80 10 10 ratio...or BARF-style with pulped vegetables included too...each do different things, so check carefully as to what you are getting...
> 
> DAF say their products follow a BARF-style diet: Durham Animal Feeds but they dont state their breakdown...but I know a lot of people on here use them.
> 
> If you want high-end minces, then you are looking at something like Darlings or Natural Instinct, but both really do come at a premium when you can get the raw ingredients yourself for much less and at the same quality (or better)...


was having a look at dog food co product list the other day and wondered what they ment by 'whole rabbit' do you know if thats with hair and head on and everything ? 
and also in the list it says 'meaty bones' wondered what types of bones these are exactly ? 
I might order from them once i've got into raw properly (not been able to start yet !!  ) will just be using the supermarket for first few months to see how they do on it 

With the prize choice have you ever tried the 'chunks' selection ? i thought maybe thats not as bad as the minces , IF i did use any of their stuff it would only be for emergencies anyway.

Sorry for all the questions lol


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## Souris

Hi there, first off, I hope you don't mind if I ask you twenty questions! 

We're not getting our puppy until later on this year and after doing my research on food I do want to feed her raw from day one (of course I'd mix in what the breeders are feeding her, gradually moving over to complete raw). However, I'm terrified of getting it 'wrong', even more so whilst she's growing up. I had planned to feed her natural instinct until I could get a firm grip on butcher suppliers around here- having a quick look around last week I wasn't overly impressed by the variety of meat we can get up here (or the price- the butcher neigh on fell into a fit of laughter when I mentioned I wanted meat for the dogs). 

However having seen the dog food company- it looks fantastic. What exactly would be a typical order/weekly menu from them? Do you just buy your meat from them, or do you supplement it with your local butchers/supermarket? 

Looking at it, you could perhaps go something like (?) :
Monday - lamb breast with some mince 
Tuesday - a raw meaty bone
Wednesday - chicken necks and wings
Thursday - Heart and tripe
Friday (offal night) - liver and tripe
Saturday- pig pluck and tripe
Sunday- raw meaty bones

Would that sound like a reasonable menu for a week? Or am I going drastically wrong somewhere? Is that a weenie bit too much tripe? Is that enough bones, or is that too much bone for her 10% bone? Also, as the previous poster said, what does a whole rabbit entail? Would I be able to chop it up into bits for a few nights? Gosh, sorry, again hope you don't mind the twenty questions guys.

Should I start off with Natural instinct whilst she's growing up, with a raw meaty bone a few times a week, and then switch her onto a fully raw diet? She will be getting mince from the breeder, so she'd be used to mince when I pick her up. 

How long would you keep an order for? If the minimum order is twenty pounds, that's one big hefty order for just one small dog (she's a Shetland sheepdog puppy). I'm already on the search for a second freezer, so holding 20-30kg or so isn't really an issue, it's just a matter of it going off or not.

Also, if I was to go down the route of natural instinct, I have a few questions for those of you that feed ground:
1. Would I be able to feed the ground mince in a kong? 
2. How many times a week will she need to be fed raw meaty bones for her teeth? Two-three-four? Saturday, and a friday, plus a wednesday? Also, what time of day do we put that in? How much of a meal does she need throughout the day with this?
3. What type of RMB? Chicken quarter? Chicken drumstick? Ribs (off any animal)? Or something else?
4. De-frosting- if she's getting 250g of meat a day- it then makes sense to de-frost a whole 1kg 'tube'. Will it fit into a kong ok defrosted? Will I need to pop some peanut butter/marmite to keep it in?

I'm sorry for the long post- I can be a total worrywart when it comes to stuff like this. I am determined that if she gets along with raw, then that's what I'd like to feed- but I'm terrified of getting it wrong whilst she's still growing. I'd hate to cause her to have a deficiency of something because I'm not getting it right- which is the main reason why the pre-packed food like Natural instinct sounds so fantastic whilst I get on my feet in regards to raw. Thanks in advance!


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## katiefranke

Blobbet said:


> was having a look at dog food co product list the other day and wondered what they ment by 'whole rabbit' do you know if thats with hair and head on and everything ?
> and also in the list it says 'meaty bones' wondered what types of bones these are exactly ?


I asked them exactly the same question myself 

Bascially they will prepare anything pretty much how you want within reason, so whole/chunks/ground etc.

The rabbits are literally whole, fur on etc...however, you just ask and they will gut and skin them for you with a little bit of notice.

The rabbits are wild and are caught with either nets, traps, rifle or 4/10 shotgun (so some could have perhaps one or two shots in)...However, most are netted where the hunter clears farms and golf courses.

The meaty bones are a mixture of pork or lamb and have enough meat on them to constitue a proper meal, not just scraps on bare bones like a lot of butchers try to give you for dogs. It is usually things like breasts, necks or ribs. I think you can specify if you would prefer just lamb etc too.

Just drop them an email or give them a call - very friendly and helpful - and as I said above, if you wanted say pigeon, venison, pheasant etc...they can get all sorts of things within reason with a little bit of notice. :thumbup:


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## katiefranke

Hi Souris, I have answered your questions as well as pos below - hope that all makes sense! Let me know if you need me to explain anything further, or feel free to PM me and I dont mind giving you my email address to discuss further 



Souris said:


> What exactly would be a typical order/weekly menu from them? Do you just buy your meat from them, or do you supplement it with your local butchers/supermarket? Also, what would an average weekly menu be if you bought it from them?


I buy the majority of my meat at my butchers and supermarkets to be honest with you, however, having heard a lot of good things about The Dog Food Company for some time now, I recently decided to get some stuff from them that my butcher couldnt get hold of as easily, like the tripe, rabbits and some other wild game.

I am about to run out to agility training but will be back to post some ideas for an order and feeding for a week at the bottom of this post...



Souris said:


> Would that sound like a reasonable menu for a week? Or am I going drastically wrong somewhere? Is that a weenie bit too much tripe? Is that enough bones, or is that too much bone for her 10% bone? Also, as the previous poster said, what does a whole rabbit entail? Would I be able to chop it up into bits for a few nights? Gosh, sorry, again hope you don't mind the twenty questions guys.


The first thing that I would say is to be careful transitioning your pup straight onto this much variety. I would suggest sticking to chicken initially and feeding quarters. If we guess 8kg adult weight, that would be about 240g a day at 3%. Split this into 3 meals for a baby pup and thats around 80g a meal. Lumps of thigh or breast meat would be great for meat-only meals and chicken wings, chicken legs or breast & rib bones for the boney meals - very roughly. Once pup is ok on this, only then start adding new things and slowly. I wouldnt add offal all in one go on one night - initially dont give any offal for the first week or so until pup is ok on the raw food (poops firm etc) and then give a tiny weeny piece every day and build up from there.

Personally, as a final menu for once pup is on raw properly, I think it sounds like a bit too much bone and tripe as you rightly guessed. People have different ideas on what they want to feed but I try and keep to the 80:10:10 as close as pos. This normally works out to feeding one meal a day just meat and one meal a day something meaty but with bone-in like a chicken or rabbit quarter. If I feed something much bonier like ribs, I tend to add another meat-only meal into the week.

Personally I go for as much variety as possible to ensure all the nutrients are in the diet and then I feel I dont have to supplement with anything. Tripe is an ok source of meat, but not the best or most nutritious, although dogs do seem to love it and it contains some great pro & prebiotics for gut health...so dont feel you have to feed this. I only give this very occasionally - it also reeks!



> Should I start off with Natural instinct whilst she's growing up, with a raw meaty bone a few times a week, and then switch her onto a fully raw diet? She will be getting mince from the breeder, so she'd be used to mince when I pick her up.


Personally, I do not feed minces as mincing exposes more of the meat to the air, so increasing bacteria, and in turn depleting vital nutrients...minced food is not good for their teeth either. I would personally not recommend feeding a mince as a regular part of the diet, but of course many people do happily, so thats something you would need to decide.

Something to remember about natural instinct that it is following a BARF diet, so contains ground veg etc too and I am not happy about their ratio of bone, to meat, to veg etc either...or their selection of offal included. They also add other supplements etc which I do not like to add for no reason.

If you would like to feed mince initially and you are weaning them off kibble anyway (sorry not sure what your breeder has pup on), you could feed this as a meaty meal to pup and then gradually switch over to whole chunks of meat and bones etc.



> How long would you keep an order for? If the minimum order is twenty pounds, that's one big hefty order for just one small dog (she's a Shetland sheepdog puppy). I'm already on the search for a second freezer, so holding 20-30kg or so isn't really an issue, it's just a matter of it going off or not.


I normally freeze pretty much everything for a few days before feeding anyway to take care of parasites and try and ensure everything has been used uo within 3 months - although usually there isnt anything left after that long! Its only £20 - so if you had 5 rabbits say @ £2, thats £10 already and then add a few other bits and bobs...but yes a spare freezer is best 



> Also, if I was to go down the route of natural instinct, I have a few questions for those of you that feed ground:
> 1. Would I be able to feed the ground mince in a kong?
> *Yes, no reason why not - just slightly messier! *
> 2. How many times a week will she need to be fed raw meaty bones for her teeth? Two-three-four? Saturday, and a friday, plus a wednesday? Also, what time of day do we put that in? How much of a meal does she need throughout the day with this?
> *My definition of an RMB is something nice and meaty still with bones inside like meaty ribs or chicken quarters etc - so I would just feed these as part of the diet, not specifically any days or number of times - as above I usually feed every 2-3 meals something with bone in. if it is a lot of bone like chicken wings, necks or lamb ribs, i would leave it a bit longer between the next boney meal to achieve my 10% bone content a week.*
> 
> 3. What type of RMB? Chicken quarter? Chicken drumstick? Ribs (off any animal)? Or something else?
> *Chicken pieces as per above, rabbit pieces, lamb or pork ribs. Beef ribs probably a bit hard for pups.*
> 
> 4. De-frosting- if she's getting 250g of meat a day- it then makes sense to de-frost a whole 1kg 'tube'. Will it fit into a kong ok defrosted? Will I need to pop some peanut butter/marmite to keep it in?
> 
> *Mince will just stick in - you can slap a bit of peanut butter across the opening if you like. I would pop mince in the kong, freeze and then feed frozen, or only partially defrosted personally, especially when it comes to teething.*
> 
> I'm sorry for the long post- I can be a total worrywart when it comes to stuff like this. I am determined that if she gets along with raw, then that's what I'd like to feed- but I'm terrified of getting it wrong whilst she's still growing. I'd hate to cause her to have a deficiency of something because I'm not getting it right- which is the main reason why the pre-packed food like Natural instinct sounds so fantastic whilst I get on my feet in regards to raw. Thanks in advance!


It seems very scary and confusing when first starting out - I know, ive been there too  ...but really it isnt once you get into it.

As I said above, happy for you to have my email address if you PM me and you can just drop me an email if you have any questions/are worried about anything etc.

There are some great groups to join too with a wealth of info: 'Raw Meaty Bones' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawMeatyBones/ and 'raw feeding' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

Good luck!! Keep us posted...and have fun with that puppy, bet you cant wait


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## Malmum

When we bought Marty a rabbit from the dog food co for his birthday recently it was whole (£2) head, fur, legs tail - everything, all the innads as well. He LOVED it and sort of guarded it for a while like it was his kill, lol. 

It was quite big though and more than enough for one meal so had his food cut down for a couple of days afterwards - but it was his birthday treat! 

Browse through the site, the meaty bones are lovely but I do chop the ribs in half as they are quite big. 
Raw Dogfood provides many nutritional and health benefits over traditional wet feed. Our business specialises in BARF


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## Blobbet

katiefranke said:


> I asked them exactly the same question myself
> 
> Bascially they will prepare anything pretty much how you want within reason, so whole/chunks/ground etc.
> 
> The rabbits are literally whole, fur on etc...however, you just ask and they will gut and skin them for you with a little bit of notice.
> 
> The rabbits are wild and are caught with either nets, traps, rifle or 4/10 shotgun (so some could have perhaps one or two shots in)...However, most are netted where the hunter clears farms and golf courses.
> 
> The meaty bones are a mixture of pork or lamb and have enough meat on them to constitue a proper meal, not just scraps on bare bones like a lot of butchers try to give you for dogs. It is usually things like breasts, necks or ribs. I think you can specify if you would prefer just lamb etc too.
> 
> Just drop them an email or give them a call - very friendly and helpful - and as I said above, if you wanted say pigeon, venison, pheasant etc...they can get all sorts of things within reason with a little bit of notice. :thumbup:


Thanks for the info 

I like the sounds of these guys ! think its great that you can personalise your orders a bit hehe 
My 2 would only need about 90 grams a day each so £20 worth is loads for them ! as i said though ill be making do with supermarket stuff for first couple of months before i go doing big orders and buying a freezer lol

I wondered where do people usually get their raw fish from ?


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## katiefranke

Blobbet said:


> I wondered where do people usually get their raw fish from ?


I only feed it every so often so I just buy it from the fish counter at local supermarkets and sometimes my butchers as they stock some fish too


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## Malmum

Ha ha - none of mine will touch raw fish, it's like it some alien being, lol. 

They go near it and when they smell it they're off - as far away as possible.
All of the Mals did pick up a mackrel once but never again, they initially studied it but no way are they going to eat it - they have tinned sardines or pilchards, very occasionally tuna but it's high in mercury so I rarely give them that.


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## Blobbet

Dont know how mine will be with fish lol i know they like cooked fish at least :thumbup: but thing is i only order stuff online so cant really get fish from fresh counter at the supermarket, if you buy the tinned sardines etc which ones do you buy? 
also i found a couple of sites that you can actually order raw whole fish from and they do sardines really cheap, like 1kg of sardines for £3 or something 
Do supermarkets sell raw whole sardines at the fresh counter?


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## Malmum

I but Glenryck pilchards in tom sauce and Asda sardines also in tom sauce as mine prefer them. 

I know Asda and Waitrose don't sell fresh sardines but you get a lot of variety from the fishmonger - obviously, lol.

Be interesting to see if you have any success with feeding them, I think I started all mine too late and they thought I was kidding! :lol:


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## katiefranke

Yep the bigger supermarkets normally have a fresh fish counter (all raw on ice) along with the fresh meat etc counters...just need to check your local ones.

Where do you have your food deliveries from? I would think they can deliver fresh raw fish from there too...?

The canned stuff I use as a standby for when I forget to get something out for the dog/cats are these kinds of things:
http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=258098027

Sometimes I give sardines or pilchards in tomato sauce, but this can upset tums not used to it - and you have to be careful there isnt lots of added salt and sugar, especially if you want to feed a couple of times a week or something.


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## Souris

katiefranke said:


> Wall of awesome informative text.


First off- thank you ever, ever so for answering my questions!

My initial plan was to start off with chicken, introducing everything else gradually over a space of a few months, so the quick mock up I made would have been for when we're in the raw full swing (so to speak). But I do agree with you, looking at it there's way too much tripe and bone in there- I'll try and make a few more meal mock ups over the next couple of days, would it be OK if I passed them by you?

Our breeder is going to feed the puppies on kibble, with the odd dollop of raw mince. I'm not sure exactly which brand of kibble she's going to feed them on (I will ask however), but if they're being fed like this- could I start the pup off on just mince minus the kibble when she gets home? Or would I start off with say kibble for the first meal, mince for the second, and then something new- like a chicken wing, or a chicken drumstick for tea? Does that sound sensible- or should I keep her on just her kibble for a while?

Also, in regards to the raw 'detox', will that happen if she's only had kibble for a few weeks from birth? I'll be picking her up at eight weeks, and surely if she suddenly went through a phase of detoxing, that'd really hinder her growth? Or am I just being overly worried?

If I started her on chicken like you said, with two meaty meals, and then a boney meal in the evening- would she get everything she needs for growing up if it is minus the offal? Would I need to use supplements for the first few weeks until she gets used to the offal?

You see, it's the variety of what I can give our puppy that really worries me. I don't really have faith in our butchers in regards to sourcing anything that's not a 'normal' cut of meat- would your basic chicken, lamb, beef be enough variety? That was my main worry- and why I was looking at the minced pre-packaged raw, as it seems to be complete so to speak for whilst she's growing up. I'm sure I'm being a total worrywart, but she'll be my first dog of my own, and I'm scared of going wrong.

I'll join those yahoo groups this afternoon, so thank you for the links! Also, I've dropped you a PM, I really hope you don't mind, thank you ever so again- you've been such a massive help. Whilst I can't think of any other questions now, I'm positive I'll have a question or two more before she arrives- and it'd be lovely to have someone in the know to turn to about it!

Myself and my other half are really, really excited about this puppy. We've been planning for this puppy now for quite some time, and it's so exciting to see all the pieces fall into place. I'm sure the moment we get her, we'll be spamming pictures of her left, right and centre!


----------



## katiefranke

Souris said:


> My initial plan was to start off with chicken, introducing everything else gradually over a space of a few months, so the quick mock up I made would have been for when we're in the raw full swing (so to speak). But I do agree with you, looking at it there's way too much tripe and bone in there- I'll try and make a few more meal mock ups over the next couple of days, would it be OK if I passed them by you?


Sounds like a plan, sure no probs - just replied to your PM, so email me over anything when you're ready. 



Souris said:


> Our breeder is going to feed the puppies on kibble, with the odd dollop of raw mince.
> ...could I start the pup off on just mince minus the kibble when she gets home?


Whilst I would normally say feed what the breeder has been feeding, in this instance, as she is feeding mince anyway, I would be very tempted to put pup straight onto mince for the first day and then from day 2 add in some whole chunks of whatever meat the mince is too. Best to stick with the same protein, but adding in the chunks will get pup ready for bigger pieces - not sure if the breeder is feeding normal mince from supermarket (i.e. just human-grade meat) or whether it is one of the pet minces with ground bone etc? Double check what it is and let me know.

Then after a couple of days I would introduce some small chicken wings and see how pup does...



Souris said:


> Also, in regards to the raw 'detox', will that happen if she's only had kibble for a few weeks from birth?


Not all dogs go through this - but its mainly those who have been on kibble for some time. As your pup will only have been on part kibble for a couple of weeks since weaning to solids, I wouldnt think you would experience this at all.



Souris said:


> If I started her on chicken like you said, with two meaty meals, and then a boney meal in the evening- would she get everything she needs for growing up if it is minus the offal? Would I need to use supplements for the first few weeks until she gets used to the offal?


As above, stick to the same protein your breeder is feeding in the mince initially (for a couple of days or so) and then if she seems fine, start adding the chicken. With pups, you can usually go quite a bit quicker with adding in the other items - but that is only a general rule - so all pups are different and you will need to wait and see how she takes to everything. You should be able to get pup eating some tiny pieces of offal after a couple of weeks. And remember, a raw diet is all about balance over time, not every single day, so as long as it all works out over a period of weeks to the right proportions its ok. Raw fed pups actually have a much smoother and longer growth period without the massive growth spurts which can occur on commerical food - which is actually better for them, as it is better for their developing bones and joints.



Souris said:


> You see, it's the variety of what I can give our puppy that really worries me. I don't really have faith in our butchers in regards to sourcing anything that's not a 'normal' cut of meat- would your basic chicken, lamb, beef be enough variety?


Dont worry, that is more than enough variety initially. Most butchers can source wild rabbits for you too. As long as you can gets offal/liver and hearts too from him?

And you could look at ordering some other items from different suppliers later on. Remember it will take you a little while to build up to that much variety anyway, by which point you will have had a little time to source things.

I fed my lot on anything I could get from the supermarket and butchers initially - so beef, pork, lamb, chicken, turkey and some canned salmon.



Souris said:


> I'll join those yahoo groups this afternoon, so thank you for the links!


Theres actually a Raw Pup list joined to the 'raw feeding' one too which will be full of info for you - so make sure you take a look at that too. loads of people on there with many many years of experience 



Souris said:


> Myself and my other half are really, really excited about this puppy.


I bet  cant wait to see piccies!

catch up with you soon!


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## Blobbet

katiefranke said:


> Yep the bigger supermarkets normally have a fresh fish counter (all raw on ice) along with the fresh meat etc counters...just need to check your local ones.
> 
> Where do you have your food deliveries from? I would think they can deliver fresh raw fish from there too...?
> 
> The canned stuff I use as a standby for when I forget to get something out for the dog/cats are these kinds of things:
> http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=258098027
> 
> Sometimes I give sardines or pilchards in tomato sauce, but this can upset tums not used to it - and you have to be careful there isnt lots of added salt and sugar, especially if you want to feed a couple of times a week or something.


I always order from sainsburys, you cant order fresh fish like that though  only fillets that are cooked and tinned stuff like you linked.
One plus point is my mum works at sainsburys so she could have a look for me 

Here is the site i found that you can order fish from,

http://www.frozenfishdirect.co.uk/buy/sardines-11164-in-detail.html

You can get sardines, whitebait, mackarel and herring , theres lots more too but those ones are the cheapest 

I guess what ill do is get my mum to get me fish from sainsburys for a while until i know the dogs like raw fish and then try an order from that site 

Thanks for the replies


----------



## katiefranke

Blobbet said:


> I guess what ill do is get my mum to get me fish from sainsburys for a while until i know the dogs like raw fish and then try an order from that site


Yep good idea - hopefully she gets a good discount too!! lol

Dont worry too much though - a lot of people never give raw fish and just add some salmon oil to all their food instead (which dogs seem to love)...


----------



## chelleANDlottie

hi
i have read all the posts on this subject and have been glad of the information. 
i have been trying to feed my westie more raw meats recently after coming accross simler information from cainine angel on the internet.
we travel a lot with our dog so find it dificult to raw feed all the time, but make sure we do raw feed at least 2 nights a week sometimes more. i would love to raw feed all the time but its just not a reality due to circumstances at present.
my dogs faverite is any kid of fish tined or fresh. i look on the fish counter for reduced fish and freeze them, she quivers with excitment when she sees what shes getting. 
shes not so keen on chicken legs and loves mince.
am i doing anything wrong by only doing this part time? 
the vet recently comented on how lovely her coat was and she is very active and alert.
chelle


----------



## katiefranke

chelleANDlottie said:


> am i doing anything wrong by only doing this part time?


No thats fine - if thats all you can manage for the mo, then thats great! Any fresh foods you can add into her diet are going to be good for her.

If you are only doing it a couple of days a week, and the rest is kibble/other commercial food, it means that you dont have to worry too much either about % etc. You can just feed what you (or rather she) likes! 

Obviously it would be better if you could feed completely raw, but as it doesnt suit for the mo you are doing the next best thing :thumbup:


----------



## ploddingon

katie, do you think it is ok to feed a mix of raw/commercial?

Bobs just loves a 50/50 mix of PrizeChoice meats and NaturesMenu tinned dog food. After months of trying to get him settled on a dog food, and having to encourage him to eat, he really tucks into this and even whines while waiting for me to prepare it!

Do you think it is ok to have this mix or would it be better to try and get him to alternate between the two?

I just want to make sure he is getting the right levels of nutrition so would appreciate your comments.


----------



## katiefranke

Do you mean as in mixed up together? People do, but personally I wouldn't.

The problem is that commercial food takes anywhere from 12-24 hours to digest and come out the other end! (usually 12-16)

But raw is something like 4-6 hours...

A dogs digestive system is designed so that it is pretty short, so that it can break down the food, take the bits it needs and then expel the waste in a short period of time. That way, meat does not 'ferment' inside them and increase bacteria.

However, if you feed commercial alongside, it can hold up the raw food in the intestines for longer than it should be there. Of course then you are left with the food fermenting in the intestines and increasing bacteria - upsetting the balance of the natural levels in the gut. This COULD lead to digestive issues, or bacteria or yeast overgrowth.

Now as I said, many people do feed this way and say they have no problems - I dont know whether this is because their dogs adapt to it and are ok? or whether they just havent noticed the signs...

But its the reasons above that would mean I don't really ever recommend to people feeding half and half if there is a choice - and also why I would definitely feed in two separate meals at the very least... I am sure a short time of this would not hurt, but over a long period of time I would personally be worried about it...

Hope that all makes sense!


----------



## ploddingon

Perfect sense thanks katie, but I hope you dont mind me picking your brains yet again (sorry).

I could understand the difference in transit for some of the commercial wet foods that contain a lot of cereals or fillers, or with kibble, but is the difference the same with food like NaturesMenu?

The ingredients for the chicken one for example is :-

*Chicken min. 61%. 
Peas min. 4%. 
Carrots min. 4%. 
Rice min. 6%. 
Minerals. 
Various sugars.*

Don't suppose it matters all that much to be honest, I will try and adjust his diet slowly so he doesn't notice, but would just be interested to know the process.


----------



## katiefranke

I only have the info for a generic average - so would need to see if wet vs dry were any different...I will look about and see if I can find an answer for you.

I would imagine anything with rice in would slow it down though...

...the 'various sugars' doesnt sound good... :S

Will come back to you!


----------



## ploddingon

Oh katie, don't worry, honestly, I was only picking your brains, it's not important. Please don't spend any time looking for info.

I see you as the resident expert in all things foody lol, but I am sorry to be a nuisance over it.


----------



## SlingDash

Despite sleepless nights, panic attacks whilst feeding our pack raw chicken and turkey carcasses, a resolution never to feed raw meaty bones again, and our considering moving back to a 'high quality' (*ahem*) kibble...

*We're still at it!!!*

Mainly thanks to Katie's amazingly helpful advice and support, we are determined to feed what is best to our beloved pack. We have been feeding large chicken portions to our Collie, and the two Labs have been enjoying huge whole turkey legs from Tesco (less than £2 each, and enough for a whole day's feeding). They are also now used to (and loving) raw liver, kidneys and other offal products - things they only used to eat semi-cooked or minced-up in the food processor.

Last time we posted, we were worried about large bone shards in the dogs' poohs, but these have not appeared again since, so we're hoping they are now used to the raw diet, and we can all settle down and relax at long last!

One thing we did when we began raw feeding (and something which I think needs to be addressed here), was to confuse the *BARF* diet with the *Raw, Meaty Bones* diet. They really are very different.

The *BARF* diet includes lots of fresh fruit and vegetables (something which, arguably, dogs do not need AT ALL), and the *Raw, Meaty Bones* diet - which is purely the feeding of an as-close-to-nature-as-possible (i.e. whole, fresh carcasses) diet to your dog(s).


----------



## Blobbet

Glad to hear you stuck to it and its going well now :thumbup:
Still waiting to start mine on it yet! (had pay delay ) would of started about 2-3 weeks ago otherwise


----------



## Pointermum

Wow, i've just read the whole thread, well done Katie :thumbup: Makes very interesting reading, a lot to think about. I'm would love to give my dogs this diet, i think i would need to look at getting a freezer in the garage as there is no room in the family freezer :lol: The other thing is i'm a veggie and have been for over 20 years so don't really know my way round meat :confused1: I'm not TO squeamish though so should be OK


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## Blobbet

Pointermum said:


> Wow, i've just read the whole thread, well done Katie :thumbup: Makes very interesting reading, a lot to think about. I'm would love to give my dogs this diet, i think i would need to look at getting a freezer in the garage as there is no room in the family freezer :lol: The other thing is i'm a veggie and have been for over 20 years so don't really know my way round meat :confused1: I'm not TO squeamish though so should be OK


I've been veggie for about 8 years and turned vegan 8 months ago too  
is going to be a bit weird handling all the meat and carcasses lol but im also not all that squeamish  at least i think not...never really handled raw meats in my life! although i suppose if you can handle the nasty stuff that comes out of dog food tins you can handle anything


----------



## oveione

Hi would just like to say started my girl on the raw diet on tuesday and she is loving it after a month of her not eating hardly any dry food or canned the change is amazing she now sits and waits eyes wide while i sort her chicken portions out and she has more energy and just loves cruncing on bones im so glad ive changed her diet as i have a much happier more satisfied dog and all the info on here from katie has been a great help so thanks katie!:thumbup:


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## chelleANDlottie

pleased to report we had a whole weekend of raw feeding, saturday turkey chunks with some veg, all turkey eaten but left the veg!
sunday whole fish- only ate about half and buried the rest!
normmally i would have given a little kibble mixed in but after reading here i didnt.
we did have a big explosion form the rear end early on sunday morning!! would that be her body just getting rid of left over kibble?, she was also fed quiet late on saturday, 
she is happy and active.
chelle


----------



## katiefranke

Thanks everyone, sorry for the delay in replying, ive been offline for a few days - I'm so glad you all found this helpful and want to feed your doggies this way 

Ask away if anyone has any other questions and Im more than happy to answer 

slingdash - you're nuts , but Im very pleased to hear you stuck with it!! :thumbup:

to anyone who is vegetarian or vegan, firstly, good on you for considering this way of feeding for your pets :thumbup:

The most imporant things for you guys I guess is to ensure you have a separate fridge drawer and freezer for your pet stuff so that it doesnt come near your food and start building relationships with your local butchers/farm shops etc, as then they can do the butchering for you! 

Whilst I did start off with just a drawer in my fridge and freezer dedicated to the pets' food, I only did it for a couple of months and it was a pain - and I didnt have to worry about the foods mixing as I buy everything from butchers etc for human consumption, and Im not vegetarian or anything! So the sooner you can get a separate freezer the better.



chelleANDlottie said:


> we did have a big explosion form the rear end early on sunday morning!! would that be her body just getting rid of left over kibble?,


have you fed raw fish much before - i know you mentioned previously that she loved fish - canned or fresh, but perhaps half a fish was a bit much? ...maggie was quite sensitive to fish initially for some reason and caused her a bit of upset tum - so could have been this?

if you are moving on to completely raw, I would stick with one protein for now, just to get her tum settled on raw - then once she is normal on it, add others gradually.

of course it could just be the switch - some dogs react differently to others. whilst i wouldnt say it was completely normal to have upset tum, it is quite common when switching. just to check - sorry to be so graphic - but are we talking loose poops when she goes? or uncontrollable liquid!! 

if it is the latter, this is NOT normal...

will check back a bit later to look for your reply


----------



## EBT

katiefranke said:


> The most imporant things for you guys I guess is to ensure you have a separate fridge drawer and freezer for your pet stuff so that it doesnt come near your food and start building relationships with your local butchers/farm shops etc, as then they can do the butchering for you!
> 
> Whilst I did start off with just a drawer in my fridge and freezer dedicated to the pets' food, I only did it for a couple of months and it was a pain - and I didnt have to worry about the foods mixing as I buy everything from butchers etc for human consumption, and Im not vegetarian or anything! So the sooner you can get a separate freezer the better.


Hi Katie, am about to start feeding my 2 English Bull Terriers raw and was wondering what kind of size freezer you use please? There's no room in house freezer so separate one is necessary and easier you say. Obviously it depends how much I intend to store but was just after a rough idea. Looking at 170 litre chest frezer, is that big enough, or do I need a bigger/longer one? Bit of a strange question but think you have answered all my other queries in this sticky. Thanks a lot!


----------



## Blobbet

My 2 just ate their first bit of raw chicken !!  :thumbup:
It was just some breast fillet cut up into pieces , they were a little hesitant at first and then realised they liked it hehe , didnt give them much though and also didnt feed anything else all day other than 2 pea sized treats each 
Just scared now incase they get upset tummies 
Hope they want to eat it again tomorow too lol


----------



## SlingDash

> The other thing is i'm a veggie and have been for over 20 years so don't really know my way round meat I'm not TO squeamish though so should be OK


It's nice to know we're not the only veggie humans feeding our canine chums a raw, meaty diet! Some people have told us they think we're weird by doing so, and question why we don't now eat meat ourselves. 

I'm not squeamish either, and have been cutting up whole ox hearts and raw liver and kidneys since we started feeding raw.

Just one question if I may:

Are turkey legs/bones as safe [supposedly] as chicken? I noticed a huge shard of bone when our big lad was chomping his way through his turkey leg tonight, and I dare say he would've swallowed it had I not taken it off him.

Having said that, I dare say he DID swallow a whole load of them in the huge lumps he was crunching up and gulping down, and I don't think I'll ever be convinced that this is safe for them to eat. 

People have said time and time again that raw bones don't splinter, but that is simply NOT the case I'm afraid.


----------



## NicoleW

How interesting. I was always advised against feeding dogs raw meat as it could make them more prone to being vicious, another myth eh?

Well I was seriously considering it until I saw the pictures, I am so squeemish I don't think I could do it! Benefits of raw feeding sounds like the best way to feed your furry friends!


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## chelleANDlottie

hi
the "explosion" was after turkey not the fish! i think it was more my fault than hers! we fed her late about 8pm, and you said it goes through quicker than kibble, i tried to make her settle as it was too early to get up, but gave in, i guess she may just ave held it too long and been desperate.!
she been feed just raw all weekend, acording to you she should be eating 10% of he weight a day is that corrcect? mine will onl eat a small amount. but has alwys only ate a small aount.
shes healthy and active so i guess thats all i should worry about.

chelle


----------



## EBT

chelleANDlottie said:


> hi
> the "explosion" was after turkey not the fish! i think it was more my fault than hers! we fed her late about 8pm, and you said it goes through quicker than kibble, i tried to make her settle as it was too early to get up, but gave in, i guess she may just ave held it too long and been desperate.!
> she been feed just raw all weekend, acording to you she should be eating 10% of he weight a day is that corrcect? mine will onl eat a small amount. but has alwys only ate a small aount.
> shes healthy and active so i guess thats all i should worry about.
> 
> chelle


From what I've read on this thread, it's 20% of their adult body weight per week. Working out to about 2-3% per day.


----------



## katiefranke

EBT said:


> Hi Katie, am about to start feeding my 2 English Bull Terriers raw and was wondering what kind of size freezer you use please?


Hi there EBT , well really any size - I have an under-counter freezer in the house and have just got a tall larder freezer for the garage - and thats for 1 dog 17kg and 2 cats of 4kg-ish. But I am planning for a puppy for next year too, so took that into account!

I could have just done with the under-counter one for quite some time, but I want to be able to buy in bigger bulk and be a bit more organised, so the tall one is gonna be good. You can get a chest one, but I prefer not to have to rummage, so wanted the drawers 



Blobbet said:


> My 2 just ate their first bit of raw chicken !!


Glad they liked it :thumbup: - did they have enough to eat? you dont need to starve them, but you are right to start off slow 



NicoleW said:


> I was always advised against feeding dogs raw meat as it could make them more prone to being vicious, another myth eh?


Yup, definitely another myth!! Some more info here that explains it well 
Myths About Raw: Will raw meat make my dog bloodthirsty?



sligdash said:


> Are turkey legs/bones as safe [supposedly] as chicken?


As I mentioned before, I prefer to take away some of the big lumps of bone in the turkey legs...many don't, but being the neurotic mum I am, I take the lump away in case maggie swallows it the wrong way. I always give her something tasty while Im taking it though in case she gets worried and thinks I am always going to take away part of her meal.  I think it will also depend on the age of the turkey - older turkeys will likely have bones that are not as soft.

Eating raw bones is no more and no less safe than most other things our dogs do and eat...why would mother nature make it that dangerous for animals to eat what they were born to?  That would be a bit silly now wouldn't it... 



chelleANDlottie said:


> the "explosion" was after turkey not the fish!


 ah ok, well having read what you wrote about amounts, this could also be why if they had too much.

It is not 10% - it is 2-3% a day (as EBT said, around 20% a week) of their *adult* weight. For some very young puppies who have been raw fed from the beginning, people often to prefer to give them as much as they will eat (or around 10% of their current body weight), as they are much better at regulating what they should eat, which might be what you were thinking with the 10%?...however, this would be too much for any adult, especially when just starting out.  Hopefully a reduction in amounts will help with the upset tums.


----------



## Blobbet

katiefranke said:


> Glad they liked it :thumbup: - did they have enough to eat? you dont need to starve them, but you are right to start off slow


Well i didnt give them much throughout the day , only a couple of small treats , just didnt want to cause any upset tummies 
I gave them about 2% of adult weight but will try give them more today :thumbup:
Have to say i already noticed one difference last night , normally they would be stinking the room out with smelly farts :lol: but last night i didnt notice any!


----------



## Blobbet

Lol , you'd think they hadn't been fed for a week the way they ate their dinner tonight!!  :lol: 
Thought id best get a delivery on the way for more since they seem to be enjoying it


----------



## katiefranke

Yeay! :thumbup: Glad its all working out well


----------



## chelleANDlottie

hi just to confirm i didnt give her 10% she only had a very small amount, but i thought she was not eating enough, 
chelle


----------



## katiefranke

chelleANDlottie said:


> hi just to confirm i didnt give her 10% she only had a very small amount, but i thought she was not eating enough,
> chelle


ah well every dog is different and the 2-3% is only a guide, so if you feel like she should be having more and she wants to eat it there is no prob with increasing to more as you go on - actually smaller dogs tend to have faster metabolisms so sometimes need more than the 3% - whereas large dogs often slower so need the lower % funnily enough.

have you carried on feeding any more raw? hows she doing?


----------



## SlingDash

> I prefer to take away some of the big lumps of bone in the turkey legs


To be honest, I haven't disected the leg to see what's inside.

It's a turkey drumstick they have, and I assumed it was one large thigh bone inside, but could be wrong. I will cut one up next time and have a look.

Whatever the case, the shard of bone I found was at least two inches long, had razor sharp ends, and would've been swallowed had I not taken it off him. It was from half way through the feed, so it wasn't from one of the 'lumpy' ends of the joint - just from the middle of the femur (if that's what a turkey's is called...?) itself.

Turkey bones DO splinter, and I'm not too happy about feeding chicken carcasses either now!* It is simply not right to say that cooked bones splinter and raw bones do not. We have fed various raw bones so far, and have seen large, sharp splinters in all the dogs' poohs*. Have you seen a chicken's rib cage? The bones are like huge, razor sharp knitting needles, and I doubt very much that a dog would think too hard about chewing those up into tiny little pieces before swallowing them.

Despite all this whittling, we are still going to feed our pack on raw, meaty bones, because we think it is the best thing to do in the abscence of anything clearly better that's commercially produced - with the exception, perhaps, of Natural Instinct products.

We won't be feeding anything tonight, because we came home to piles of vomit and diarrhoea all over the house at lunch time, so something's not right with one of the dogs. I sincerely hope it's nothing to do with a huge splinter of raw bone that one of them's swallowed!

**EDIT**

*Not sure if we're all talking about the same thing here, but the Turkey drumsticks we're feeding are sold in ASDA and TESCO near us. I have just cut open a semi-frozen drumstick and, as far as I can tell, there is just one large bone in the entire thing. They are not like the whole chicken thighs/legs you buy with a 'knee' joint in the middle - they are just the top portion of the turkey's thigh with no joint.*

I am completely comfortable feeding our older Collie on raw chicken pieces, because she takes her time and gives them a damn good chewing. Even though we seperate the two Labs, they both 'wolf' down their joints as fast as they can - which is what's VERY worrying!


----------



## katiefranke

Sorry slingdash, I dont know what to say to help your worries...its something you either come to terms with or you dont 

I guess don't feed the turkey legs ? ... you could find if they are the really cheap ones they are random as to how old they are and can be more brittle the older they are - so some might be ok and some not so much?

If dogs bolt food, the answer is always to increase the size of the lumps they are eating, but then you are always going to get shards of bone from some types of bone...just take it away if you dont want them to eat it. I never leave maggie unsupervised when she eats anyway.


----------



## Blobbet

Well i wasnt expecting this lol...

Today is their 4th day on raw and in that time Charlie has only done 3 poos and Tammy has only done 1...in 4 days !!!!  (normally i would be clearing up about 4+ A DAY so thats quite a difference!)
Take note >>> i havent fed them ANY BONES <<< only chicken breast fillet and boneless chicken thighs 
I thought if anything they would have runny poos 
Also the poos they have done were not hard or anything just normal 

I was particularly concerned about Tammy so i put a teaspoon of olive oil with her dinner tonight as read that can help (dont have any pumpkin or other things that ive read can help so had to make do) 
It seems like their not actually constipated but just taking ages to digest it or something ... 
Hope Tammy does one later today  might try get some butternut squash tomorrow as it has similar effect as pumpkin apparently and give that a try.

I guess theyre just having a bit of trouble digesting it but that does make me worry as the reason dogs arent affected by the bacteria is because they're supposed to digest it too quick for bacteria to effect them ...

Has this ever happened to anyone else that started raw?? 

Sorry for the long post


----------



## ploddingon

SlingDash said:


> To be honest, I haven't disected the leg to see what's inside.
> 
> It's a turkey drumstick they have, and I assumed it was one large thigh bone inside, but could be wrong. I will cut one up next time and have a look.
> 
> Whatever the case, the shard of bone I found was at least two inches long, had razor sharp ends, and would've been swallowed had I not taken it off him. It was from half way through the feed, so it wasn't from one of the 'lumpy' ends of the joint - just from the middle of the femur (if that's what a turkey's is called...?) itself.
> 
> Turkey bones DO splinter, and I'm not too happy about feeding chicken carcasses either now!* It is simply not right to say that cooked bones splinter and raw bones do not. We have fed various raw bones so far, and have seen large, sharp splinters in all the dogs' poohs*. Have you seen a chicken's rib cage? The bones are like huge, razor sharp knitting needles, and I doubt very much that a dog would think too hard about chewing those up into tiny little pieces before swallowing them.
> 
> Despite all this whittling, we are still going to feed our pack on raw, meaty bones, because we think it is the best thing to do in the abscence of anything clearly better that's commercially produced - with the exception, perhaps, of Natural Instinct products.
> 
> We won't be feeding anything tonight, because we came home to piles of vomit and diarrhoea all over the house at lunch time, so something's not right with one of the dogs. I sincerely hope it's nothing to do with a huge splinter of raw bone that one of them's swallowed!
> 
> **EDIT**
> 
> *Not sure if we're all talking about the same thing here, but the Turkey drumsticks we're feeding are sold in ASDA and TESCO near us. I have just cut open a semi-frozen drumstick and, as far as I can tell, there is just one large bone in the entire thing. They are not like the whole chicken thighs/legs you buy with a 'knee' joint in the middle - they are just the top portion of the turkey's thigh with no joint.*
> 
> I am completely comfortable feeding our older Collie on raw chicken pieces, because she takes her time and gives them a damn good chewing. Even though we seperate the two Labs, they both 'wolf' down their joints as fast as they can - which is what's VERY worrying!


I know how you feel, I too find the raw bone diet very worrying. I have tried Bobby on a couple of chicken legs and have now stopped because I was worried. One splintered, but the other he chewed small enough till he could fit it all in his mouth but was too big to swallow.

I got worried about him choking, so have given up on the bones, it's just not worth the worry.

I now feed him NaturesMenu tinned dog food, which he absolutely loves and will eat without me having to add any raw meat to it now, which is a rare event for him (fussy eater)

Natural Dog Food Pouches | Junior, Adult, Light & Senior Ranges

I am still going to give him the odd meal of lambs heart, mince, Prize Choice etc, so he will have some raw, but just dont feel I can take the risk with him, and the NatureMenu seems a good option for a commercial dog food.


----------



## katiefranke

Blobbet said:


> I guess theyre just having a bit of trouble digesting it but that does make me worry as the reason dogs arent affected by the bacteria is because they're supposed to digest it too quick for bacteria to effect them ...
> 
> Has this ever happened to anyone else that started raw??
> 
> Sorry for the long post


This is quite common when first starting out - I seem to remember maggie didnt go for about 3 days and the cats even longer on their first week! but then they became more regular once they had been on it a couple of weeks.

Now maggie goes once or twice a day.

The reason for the poops being much smaller and less frequent on a raw diet is actually because they are NOT having trouble digesting the food - in fact its a sign that their bodies are utilising much more of this food than they did on commercial and so there is a lot less waste to come out the other end! 

I found increasing the fat content slightly - so with some skin/fat or by adding some salmon oil - did the trick when needed in the beginning. But dont overdo or it you will have the other problem!


----------



## Blobbet

Thought id take them out for another quick walk just now to see if it would get Tammy to go and after doing a MASSIVE loud fart she finally did a poo yaaaayyyy :lol: 
Hopefully she wont go another 3 days without one! 
feel really relieved now  
I wonder if it was the olive oil that helped or maybe she was just ready to go at last


----------



## Blobbet

katiefranke said:


> This is quite common when first starting out - I seem to remember maggie didnt go for about 3 days and the cats even longer on their first week! but then they became more regular once they had been on it a couple of weeks.


Oh right! i thought that they would normally get runny poos to start with so i was quite concerned  
Thanks for putting my mind at ease 
I thought it was weird how she had about 3 days worth of food all inside her and yet she didnt even have a bloated belly or anything lol was thinking 'where the hell has it all gone!!' :lol:


----------



## Plabebob

I really need some help on this. I really want to switch Tron to a raw diet but I don't drive or have any transport really. The boyfriend is vegetarian & whilst he's happy deal with meat in the kitchen I really don't feel comfortable subjecting him to an abattoir or wholesalers.

My ideal solution would be to order online, but I just can't seem to find anywhere that will deliver to here (Manchester) especially green tripe seems to be really really hard to get hold of. 

Any suggestions really gratefully received!


----------



## Blobbet

Plabebob said:


> I really need some help on this. I really want to switch Tron to a raw diet but I don't drive or have any transport really. The boyfriend is vegetarian & whilst he's happy deal with meat in the kitchen I really don't feel comfortable subjecting him to an abattoir or wholesalers.
> 
> My ideal solution would be to order online, but I just can't seem to find anywhere that will deliver to here (Manchester) especially green tripe seems to be really really hard to get hold of.
> 
> Any suggestions really gratefully received!


This place is good and they sell green tripe too  i plan to use them myself once my 2 are settled on raw.

The Dog Food Company - Products Page

Nearly everyone in this house is veggie/vegan also and i too have limited transport so i order everything online :thumbup: 
You can get alot of stuff delivered from supermarkets and anything else you need could be ordered from that link , i think they deliver all over UK


----------



## Plabebob

Wow thanks! That's great. Can't wait to get him started eeep!!!


----------



## oveione

Hi well as you know sassy loves her raw ! well yesterday we became the new owners of an 8 week old springerxlabrador and he is on wagg!! well tried him with some raw chicken and he loved it so my question is will it be ok to switch him over to raw now? and how do i go about bones ? will post pics of our new addition later.


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## katiefranke

Plabebob said:


> Wow thanks! That's great. Can't wait to get him started eeep!!!


Thats where I suggest too - they do loads more than they list online too - if you ask for anything you want they can pretty much get it in if you give them a bit of notice and they will prepare everything how you like it (whole, chunks, minced etc)


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## katiefranke

oveione said:


> Hi well as you know sassy loves her raw ! well yesterday we became the new owners of an 8 week old springerxlabrador and he is on wagg!! well tried him with some raw chicken and he loved it so my question is will it be ok to switch him over to raw now? and how do i go about bones ? will post pics of our new addition later.


hi oveione, congrats on your new pup 

I would highly recommend joining the Yahoo list RawPup:

There is a load of great info on there with lots of experienced members to help you along.

I would personally switch pup straight over if he is liking it and start with chicken wings as your bones, as they are pretty easy for pups to get the hang of, you will likely be able to move very quickly onto whole chicken quarters as the bone-in meals once he gets the hang of the wings.

Stick with chicken for the first week or so to make sure he is ok on it and then start adding variety very gradually... you pretty much need to feed exactly the same as you would for an adult dog, just size appropriately and split across 3-4 meals a day at this stage. The only thing that pups tend to need a little more of is a slightly higher bone content. But join that group and you will be just fine :thumbup:

Good luck and looking forward to seeing those piccies!


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## Blobbet

Gave my 2 their first thigh with a bone in yesterday :thumbup: 
i held onto the bones so they could eat it a bit easier and so i could get the bone off them if i needed to, 
They both really enjoyed them and got on really well with it  cant believe how quickly Tammy chomped through her bone once she finally got to it lol, 
Charlie ate most of the meat off and then wanted a break lol , after few mins she went back to it and finished it all off :thumbup: Charlie was actually more careful with her bone than Tammy was ! 

Toilets have been normal so far apart from that they only do 1-2 a day each  (i suppose that will be the new normal though!)
Gave them a boneless meal today and they're going to have another thigh with bone tomorrow 

Just thought id give a little update


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## katiefranke

its sounds l like they are doing great! yeay :thumbup:

well done, you are doing really well with them.

oh yes, 1-2 times a day is definitely fine, absolutely normal. many raw fed dogs only go once a day to be honest! Just depends how much bone you are feeding etc. i normally find if maggie hasnt had a bone meal for a couple of days she uses more of the food. bones form a bit of bulk so they go a bit more the more bonier food they eat.

keep it up, good to read your updates


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## Malmum

Blobbet said:


> Gave my 2 their first thigh with a bone in yesterday :thumbup:
> i held onto the bones so they could eat it a bit easier and so i could get the bone off them if i needed to,
> They both really enjoyed them and got on really well with it  cant believe how quickly Tammy chomped through her bone once she finally got to it lol,
> Charlie ate most of the meat off and then wanted a break lol , after few mins she went back to it and finished it all off :thumbup: Charlie was actually more careful with her bone than Tammy was !


Great and they will have pearly white teeth forever - no need for dentals at the vets.


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## beautifullily

Great thread, has answered lots of my questions!

I'm taking ownership of a new puppy on Friday who has been weaned onto a raw meat diet and was in two minds as to whether to continue with it. As a new puppy owner I very much feel that I will have lots to contend with and would be happier with the convenience of dry foods. I've since been looking at the Natural Instinct website and their complete raw food pouches and am now more willing to keep up with it.

If I went down the Natural Instinct route would I need to add anything else to the food? If I went for the puppy mix would having the same food everyday be OK?

Any advice gratefully received!!

Thanks
Fay

Edit: have found the Natures Menu products now and their frozen blocks seem to work out cheaper than Natural Instinct - any views on either of these companies?


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## katiefranke

If you feed natural instinct puppy you would still need to feed whole raw meaty bones a few times a week to get them used to ripping/tearing/crunching and keeping their teeth clean. You might also want to read a bit more into it as it contains things you may not want to feedd - for instance as a raw feeder you will need to read around the arguments for feeding vegetables and see if you agree with this. I also do not like the fact that they add cod liver oil, as this contains a lot of Vit A.

The quality of the natural instinct meat sources is very good which is why it is much more expensive than the natures menu stuff.

Personally I do not feed the commercial pre-made raw products so cannot advise too much.

Why dont you have a chat with your breeder? If the pups have been weaned onto raw meat I think that they would be more than happy to advise and guide you through it. It will be so much easier with a breeder to rely on to help you through it :thumbsup:

What breed are you getting? I bet you are excited


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## beautifullily

Thanks Katie, we're getting an ESS, very excited indeed!

I'll talk to the breeder tomorrow - from what she's said previously I think she's been feeding him on commercially made raw food. I've got some Nature's Menu from Pets at Home today so at least I have something to feed the pup when he arrives and I'll take it from there.

There's lots to take on board as well as learning about the pup himself!


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## katiefranke

Im sure you will do fine 

Just make sure you check with your breeder on what proteins pup has had so far - so is she feeding for instance beef and chicken at the mo?

If so, then stick with these for a little while to settle him in before you introduce anything new.

At least if you start with the same as the breeder, it will give you a little time to research and work out how you want to feed :thumbup:


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## Blobbet

Had a really horrible experience with last nights dinner 

Gave them both their thighs and all was going fine , Charlie finished hers no problem.
Tammy had eaten about 95% of hers and then started choking on a bit of meat she was trying to swallow! before i could even do anything she suddenly collapsed and started having a seizure!!  i was in total panic and had no idea what was happening or what to do , I've never experienced anything like that before :frown: 
It only lasted about 8 seconds and then she stood up, she still had a bit of food gripped in her mouth as i was in too much shock and panic to of got it out ... Charlie then decided to help out and came over and took the food out of Tammy's mouth for me! 
Tammy then just sat down next to me and looked really confused and disorientated so i just stroked her and talked to her softly (whilst crying my eyes out!) and then after about 30 secs she just snapped out of it and went off outside and did both her toilets and then she's been absolutely fine since...
I'm pretty sure it was because she choked though and not some other reason as i spent all last evening reading about it and read other stories of the same thing happening to their dog after choking , if it ever happens again though i'll be getting straight to the vet!

I shall hold onto the food for her and maybe even cut it up a bit from now on as i never want to risk her choking on it again! 
She's always been a bit of a choker... the amount of times she's choked on rawhides/tripe sticks etc , she even chokes on water everytime she has a drink! She's not even a gulper or fast eater or anything , just prone to choking on things 
I shall have to try and modify her diet to suit her better as she just cant cope with big lumps of chewy stringy flesh  (for now anyway)

Was all going so well too :frown: can't get that horrible moment out my head , i really thought she was dying :crying:


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## katiefranke

Oh no, I'm so sorry to hear this 

I would make sure you tell your vets about this, they need to have a record of this - sounds like a proper seizure, which could be a sign of an injury, underlying health issue or epilepsy.

The fact that she literally just went from one second gagged on a bit of meat to the next second collapsed and fiitting (I assume you mean by seizure?) is not something that just happens from food. If she had just choked, then she would have been gagging etc, and if she lost consciousness from no air she would not have been fitting...and would not have regained consciousness unless the food was disloged and she could breath again 

It is very likely that the onset of the seizure caused her to choke rather than the other way around, as when one starts the muscles can tense up and this would have constricted her throat round any food...Im afraid the symptoms you describe sound exactly like what happens during a seizure, including the sudden onset, disorientation afterwards etc...

Im really sorry hun, you need to have a think to see if anything could have caused it...has she had any trauma to her head? Has she any health conditions?

What happened during the seizure?


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## Blobbet

Well at first she was standing chewing and then she started making funny noises that she does quite often when she cant breath very well, does it alot while eating too so i didnt think much of it , but then she got worse and seemed like she really couldn't breath and then stumbled forwards , went onto her side and then started convulsing all over , legs straight out and flailing around  from when she went on the floor it lasted maybe about 8 seconds and then she stood up and came sat next to me , and just sat there all confused etc for about 30 secs, I noticed her tongue was bluish while she sat too .
I wrote down the time and some details after it happened just incase too although i dont think id ever forget it!!

She has never had any health problems in her life , absolutely nothing ... she has no other symptoms to indicate any underlying problems as far as i can tell 

Theres another thing i read that can cause seizures which was being allergic to something or eating something toxic, i wondered is it possible theres something in the chicken... or like you mentioned in the other thread about ingesting the cleaning residue or something? 

I took extra precautions today and rinsed that mat off really well and fed Tammy a boneless thigh out of my hand and she's been fine all today.

When i read causes of seizures it did say they can be caused by asphyxiation (suffocating) too so it must be possible in some cases


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## SlingDash

Well this has definitely made our minds up once and for all about not feeding any more raw, meaty bones! 

What a horrific thing to go through - for both you and your dog!


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## EBT

First day yesterday on raw diet. Just chicken breast in the morning without bone so they/I could get use to it. Ate that happily, then in the evening they had chicken thigh and side each, bone and all. Bit worrying watching them (the older one does scoff down her food normally) but they both chewed and crunched up their chicken quite happily. They surprisingly took their time, even just licking it for a bit. Gentle start with not much bone I know but don't want to rush it. Having chicken drumstick and thigh tonight. Bit more bone in that so hopefully all will go well again :thumbup:


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## Blobbet

Just fed them thighs with bones in and held onto Tammy's while she ate and all was fine  She gets on so much better with my help, no choking or funny noises at all! :thumbup: 
Also i gave them their first little tiny piece of liver so i half expect some runny poos lol


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## katiefranke

Hi blobbet - dont panic about the cleaning of the mat etc...i wouldnt have thought it was this or anything in the chicken.

You would have known if it was an allergic reaction - fits can happen as a result of this, but it would be much worse and it would be because of allergic reaction that the throat would swell and oxygen would be cut off etc.

It would be possible if a dog choked on something big enough (this could be anything, a ball, a lump of rawhide, a sock! etc) then it could cut off the air-supply and they could pass out and fit from the lack of oxygen...but then unless the object was removed, then they wouldnt recover so quick? :S

Hhhhmm, well keep an eye on her, fingers crossed it was just a weird one-off, but if you see ANYTHING unusual, not just when eating, then I think you should assume there is something wrong and should discuss with the vet.

Glad to see you are being practical about it though and rather than giving up you are doing the logical thing and holding the food :thumbup: I hope everything is ok and she gets on better like this. Oh yes, liver is an interesting one!! Sometimes it is absolutely fine, sometimes not so!  Lets hope they are ok with it  ...just to say, if they are ok with it, dont be tempted to give them any more straight away the next day, leave it a couple of days and give a similar-sized piece...


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## katiefranke

EBT said:


> First day yesterday on raw diet. Just chicken breast in the morning without bone so they/I could get use to it. Ate that happily, then in the evening they had chicken thigh and side each, bone and all. Bit worrying watching them (the older one does scoff down her food normally) but they both chewed and crunched up their chicken quite happily. They surprisingly took their time, even just licking it for a bit. Gentle start with not much bone I know but don't want to rush it. Having chicken drumstick and thigh tonight. Bit more bone in that so hopefully all will go well again :thumbup:


Yeay! sounds like a good start :thumbup: and the amount of bone is just fine. Remember total bone content only has to be about 10% of the diet so that normally equates to say one bone-in meal a day and one meaty meal.

Keep us posted on how you get on


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## Blobbet

katiefranke said:


> Hi blobbet - dont panic about the cleaning of the mat etc...i wouldnt have thought it was this or anything in the chicken.
> 
> You would have known if it was an allergic reaction - fits can happen as a result of this, but it would be much worse and it would be because of allergic reaction that the throat would swell and oxygen would be cut off etc.
> 
> It would be possible if a dog choked on something big enough (this could be anything, a ball, a lump of rawhide, a sock! etc) then it could cut off the air-supply and they could pass out and fit from the lack of oxygen...but then unless the object was removed, then they wouldnt recover so quick? :S
> 
> Hhhhmm, well keep an eye on her, fingers crossed it was just a weird one-off, but if you see ANYTHING unusual, not just when eating, then I think you should assume there is something wrong and should discuss with the vet.
> 
> Glad to see you are being practical about it though and rather than giving up you are doing the logical thing and holding the food :thumbup: I hope everything is ok and she gets on better like this. Oh yes, liver is an interesting one!! Sometimes it is absolutely fine, sometimes not so!  Lets hope they are ok with it  ...just to say, if they are ok with it, dont be tempted to give them any more straight away the next day, leave it a couple of days and give a similar-sized piece...


I really hope it was a weird one-off , i'll be keeping a close eye on her to watch for any other symptoms etc .

There are many ways of feeding raw too so it's not like if the one way doesn't work then you have to give up  as people say , you adjust it suit each individual dog so if Tammy needs a bit of extra help then im happy to do that :thumbup:

They seem to be fine so far after the liver last night , i'll wait a few days before giving any more though 

Also i had a question...

What can you do if something you order comes already frozen but you need to portion it up? is it ok to defrost it and then cut it all up and refreeze it?
For example i have some liver that came in a tray already frozen in a big solid lump , i just tried to slice bits off with scissors lol 
and i have these big lamb chops things which need portioning up but you'd need an electric saw to cut through those frozen :lol:


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## katiefranke

Blobbet said:


> There are many ways of feeding raw too so it's not like if the one way doesn't work then you have to give up  as people say , you adjust it suit each individual dog ...


Exactly! 



Blobbet said:


> What can you do if something you order comes already frozen but you need to portion it up? is it ok to defrost it and then cut it all up and refreeze it?


No unfortunately once defrosted, you shouldnt ever re-freeze anything. 

You could try putting it inside a couple of plastic bags and whacking it with something heavy and see if it breaks up a bit? However, if this doesnt work, then you will probably have to give up on using it for their portions.

However, dont throw it away, as what you can do, is defrost the lot, then boil it, cut into cubes and use as training treats...or you could mix it up with flour etc and cook it to make some liver cake - again great for training treats?

I will dig out a recipe for liver cake for you - dogs LOVE it :thumbup:


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## Blobbet

katiefranke said:


> Exactly!
> 
> No unfortunately once defrosted, you shouldnt ever re-freeze anything.
> 
> You could try putting it inside a couple of plastic bags and whacking it with something heavy and see if it breaks up a bit? However, if this doesnt work, then you will probably have to give up on using it for their portions.
> 
> However, dont throw it away, as what you can do, is defrost the lot, then boil it, cut into cubes and use as training treats...or you could mix it up with flour etc and cook it to make some liver cake - again great for training treats?
> 
> I will dig out a recipe for liver cake for you - dogs LOVE it :thumbup:


Ah ok then , it doesn't matter too much, i realised actually those bits of lamb are big enough for both so i can defrost one bit and then cut it in half 
And the liver i can manage to cut bits off while its frozen still , got some poultry shears being delivered some time this week so should make things a bit easier in future lol :thumbup: i ended up with about 4 months worth of liver though eek so i could still try make some treats out of some of it 

I plan to maybe get a dehydrator down the line too so i can make them my own healthy treats! 

Does the stuff from the dog food company get delivered fresh or frozen?

Just had a funny image of me hammering a chisel into a lump of frozen meat lol... i wonder if that would work


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## katiefranke

Blobbet said:


> Just had a funny image of me hammering a chisel into a lump of frozen meat lol... i wonder if that would work


lol!!! 

From the dog food co, some things come fresh and some frozen (I think most of the bigger things are fresh so you can portion them before freezing) - but they are very good, so just call or email any queries and they get back to you pretty quick. They are very flexible.

PS: here you go - a recipe for liver cake  http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/122494-where-do-i-find.html


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## bernermum

What a fantastic thread, I found it whilst looking for suppliers of ready made barf diets? 
I have been feeding my Bernese a semi barf diet since they were 4 months old but was getting fed up of the supermarket bought chicken being a bit smelly in my fridgeand still feeding them some complete a day as I worried that they were not getting all the correct foodstuffs in their diets :scared:. 

After looking at the ready mades wow seems a bit pricey - I currently spend around £6+ a day feeding my 2 boys I am now considering making my own. 

I just need to find a supplier of lamb ribs/ chicken carcasses/wings etc that isn't going to cost the earth
Does anyone know of any around the Kent/Surrey area.

Regards

CJ


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## MarKalAm

bernermum said:


> Does anyone know of any around the Kent/Surrey area.


The Dog Food Company - Products Page

Scott delivers to Surrey. :thumbup: Much cheaper than £6 a day :scared:


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## katiefranke

MarKalAm said:


> The Dog Food Company - Products Page
> 
> Scott delivers to Surrey. :thumbup: Much cheaper than £6 a day :scared:


Yep would definitely recommend the above! 

wow - £6 a day for two dogs!!? I usually buy all free-range meat or wild game for my dog and cats and still dont spend that much!! 

The Dog Food Company are also really good because you can ask them to source pretty much anything for you and they will get it if you give them a bit of notice. Plus they will prepare how you need - so whole, chunks, minced etc... :thumbup:


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## Blobbet

katiefranke said:


> The Dog Food Company are also really good because you can ask them to source pretty much anything for you and they will get it if you give them a bit of notice. Plus they will prepare how you need - so whole, chunks, minced etc... :thumbup:


I'm wondering how many times you've said this now lol 
I only joined a month ago and i'm sure i've seen you type pretty much the same sentence about 5 times in various threads :lol: 
I know i'm a culprit for making you say it too  hehe

My two had their first bit of lamb today wooo, they ate it just as happily as they eat chicken  , i think the pieces were cuts from a lamb leg cos they had a round bit of bone in the middle which was rock hard! They couldn't crunch it up at all lol, they've been carrying them around for hours just licking them and chucking them around :lol:

Got my poultry shears delivered today too :thumbup: they shall certainly come in handy when i'm buying whole chickens and rabbits etc to cut up


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## katiefranke

Blobbet said:


> I'm wondering how many times you've said this now lol
> I only joined a month ago and i'm sure i've seen you type pretty much the same sentence about 5 times in various threads :lol:
> I know i'm a culprit for making you say it too  hehe


lol!!! i know!!  ...I like to point out about the flexibility, as I dont think it is too clear from their site 

yes poultry shears are very handy!! its a bit sad when we get excited about things like this isnt it!!?  Its like when I got my freezer!!


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## Blobbet

katiefranke said:


> lol!!! i know!!  ...I like to point out about the flexibility, as I dont think it is too clear from their site
> 
> yes poultry shears are very handy!! its a bit sad when we get excited about things like this isnt it!!?  Its like when I got my freezer!!


Haha yea , i'll be going through the 'yaaayyyy got new freezer!!' stage at some point :lol:

I just love getting new things! doesn't even matter what it is lol just love anything new that i get


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## bernermum

thank you markalum and katiefranke for the info, I have 2 large freezers full of rubbish so I will sort one out and use it for my lovely boys.

You can easily spend £6 plus they have 6 pieces of chicken a day each plus complete then there is yogurt/cheese/veg/dog muffins and treats (not every day) - they eat better than we do.

I did use pets chicken wings before and thought they looked a bit nasty so I went and got some from Wing Yip the chinese warehouse - my older dog refused to eat them and I must say they looked as thought they had thawed out then were frozen again. I then went to iceland which weren't too bad but got in the habit of picking up chicken drumsticks when I got the family shop in m & S lol:lol: No I am not mental crazy: my daughter works there part time and I get a discount . I even tried the dog chicken mince - my dog wouldn't touch it even when I cooked it:confused1::frown2:

Since I got my younger boy 3 months ago Tiberious my big boy isnt as picky he cant afford to be as Barnaby will eat anything/everything so he would starve unless he got stuck in lol. Barnaby at 9 months gulps down his chicken 2 crunches at the most!

Poultry shears are also on my list - I normally use a cleaver but you do get splinters using it. i also did not realise you could feed raw lamb!! I normally feed chicken or beef.


I saw the recipe for liver cake on a different thread katiefranke and am definately going to try it - it beats paying £1 per muffin at bluewater - what a saddo am I lol, I just don't have much time to make things.

CJ


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## katiefranke

bernermum said:


> Poultry shears are also on my list - I normally use a cleaver but you do get splinters using it. i also did not realise you could feed raw lamb!! I normally feed chicken or beef.


You can feed all sorts of meat!! Anything pretty much if you are in the UK.

I feed maggie a mix of lumps of beef, lamb, venison or pork meat. Quarters of rabbit, duck, or chicken. Lamb or pork ribs. Ox/beef and lamb hearts. Tripe. Small amounts of liver and kidney - sometimes other less common offal if I can get hold of it. Oily fish. Eggs. Salmon oil when I don't give fish for a while.

I feed pretty much all free range meat or wild game, plus organic eggs. When I first started out it probably cost me about £2.50-£3 per day for maggie (so similar to you) and around £1 per cat. Maggie needs around 450g a day - so equivalent to maybe to half a rabbit, a couple of large chicken quarters etc.

However, as we've been doing it for quite some time, I've managed to work out some decent suppliers, added more variety which allows me to add some cheaper items like the heart and tripe too, I have also got a dedicated freezer and a second one on the way! which allows me to buy in bulk... and I now do the same as above for about £1-£1.50 a day I would think (haven't added it up recently).

But of course you can do it a LOT cheaper than this still. Like my close friend with 3 dogs on raw just as one example - i know she manages to feed her dogs for *less than 50p each per day*. She does the following:
- got friendly with her local farm shop which butchers its own meat. they have to pay to have all their rubbish (which includes carcasses and meaty bones) taken away, so she gets a great big bag full every month from them for free!
- she knows a guy who nets rabbits on the golf course, so she gets her wild rabbits for about £1 skinned & gutted
- she has managed to find an abbatoir recently that will sell her chicken carcasses with meaty bits on them still
- she buys heart & offal from the butchers but always gets the more unusual bits which seem to be really cheap
- and she gets quite a bit of tripe which is a cheap meal too
- then when she can she picks up meat on offer at supermarkets/farmers markets etc to add variety

:thumbup:


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## bernermum

katiefranke said:


> You can feed all sorts of meat!! Anything pretty much if you are in the UK.
> 
> I feed maggie a mix of lumps of beef, lamb, venison or pork meat. Quarters of rabbit, duck, or chicken. Lamb or pork ribs. Ox/beef and lamb hearts. Tripe. Small amounts of liver and kidney - sometimes other less common offal if I can get hold of it. Oily fish. Eggs. Salmon oil when I don't give fish for a while.
> 
> I feed pretty much all free range meat or wild game, plus organic eggs. When I first started out it probably cost me about £2.50-£3 per day for maggie (so similar to you) and around £1 per cat. Maggie needs around 450g a day - so equivalent to maybe to half a rabbit, a couple of large chicken quarters etc.
> 
> However, as we've been doing it for quite some time, I've managed to work out some decent suppliers, added more variety which allows me to add some cheaper items like the heart and tripe too, I have also got a dedicated freezer and a second one on the way! which allows me to buy in bulk... and I now do the same as above for about £1-£1.50 a day I would think (haven't added it up recently).
> 
> But of course you can do it a LOT cheaper than this still. Like my close friend with 3 dogs on raw just as one example - i know she manages to feed her dogs for *less than 50p each per day*. She does the following:
> - got friendly with her local farm shop which butchers its own meat. they have to pay to have all their rubbish (which includes carcasses and meaty bones) taken away, so she gets a great big bag full every month from them for free!
> - she knows a guy who nets rabbits on the golf course, so she gets her wild rabbits for about £1 skinned & gutted
> - she has managed to find an abbatoir recently that will sell her chicken carcasses with meaty bits on them still
> - she buys heart & offal from the butchers but always gets the more unusual bits which seem to be really cheap
> - and she gets quite a bit of tripe which is a cheap meal too
> - then when she can she picks up meat on offer at supermarkets/farmers markets etc to add variety
> 
> :thumbup:


I think I will have to get friendly with my local butchers, though one does charge for dog bones if you don't buy anything. I am okay for eggs as I have 4 chickens ( I have been giving the eggs away when I have had too many).

There is an "upmarket" one close by I will go and have a little chat. I had a look at the dog food company thanks to you and will be putting in an order when my family have eaten there way through half the freezer. I do have 2 large freezers and I am going to have a clear out as I suspect that half the stuff is out of date. The boys have been lucky in the past with the odd old leg of lamb/beef joint . We do have a bad habit of eating whats at the top and not delving down.

I have bought the ingredients to make doggie muffins and biscuits tonight thanks to 1 of your links. I will let you know how they turn out.

CJ


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## Jasper's Bloke

Another convert here, KatieFranke you are an angel and you should be very proud of what you have achieved here. I am sure everyone is extremely grateful for the time and effort you have put into this thread.

Up to now I have been feeding whole chicken legs and a bit of liver, plus raw beef mince when we are having it for ourselves anyway, a few whole eggs and the odd tin of mackerel. Already I can see a difference in his coat, not so much shinier, he's always had a shiny coat) but more softer to the touch. I am working on my 20 month old lab x spaniel being around 30kg, which works out to about 750g of food per day @ 2.5%. 

I am trying to find a local suppliers to give me enough variety to go fully raw but have had a few disappointing conversations with independent butchers. This morning one gave me 3 huge bags of bones for £1 but when I got them home to divide up there didn't seem to be very much meat on them, but I reckon I've got 3 meals worth out of it so not to worry. Another local guy told me he doesn't have off cuts but he does supply people with shredded tripe for 45p per lb, specifically for their dogs. I bought a couple and will see how they go down. 

I have found a couple of places that sell rabbits but they are about £4 or £5 each, eek!!! So I might try The Dog Food Company and get a bit of a stock going (rabbits, lamb ribs etc).

A couple more questions for you though when you have the time.

How variable does the diet need to be? EG could I feed this tripe once a day along with something like a chicken leg or a 1/2 rabbit? Using the tripe as a base and then adding variety (chicken/offal/eggs/rmb etc) over the course of the week, or would that be too much of one thing?

Going by the 80/10/10 ratio should most of the meals be just meat without bone?

I have also read that many people who feed raw fast their dogs for a day a week, still feeding the same overall amount of food, but over 6 days instead of 7. Do you think this is useful?

My dog has been on 2 meals a day for the last 18 months, morning and evening, would it be better to switch to one? If the food passes through an adjusted dog in 4-6 hours would an evening meal not result in the need to toilet during the night? Would morning meals be better if this is the case.

How does raw feeding affect the likelihood of bloat/gastric torsion? Understandably he is going to eat a meaty bone or chicken leg a lot slower than he would kibble, but how soon after a meal is it safe to exercise? At the moment he has kibble around 730 and a big walk (1-2 hours off lead) just after 9, with a further 20 minutish off lead run in the evening.

Thanks again for all the info so far, you are an inspiration to us all!!


----------



## katiefranke

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Another convert here, KatieFranke you are an angel and you should be very proud of what you have achieved here. I am sure everyone is extremely grateful for the time and effort you have put into this thread.


he he,  ...thank you very much jasper's bloke! it is nice to know that everyone is finding it useful :thumbup:

I will try and answer all your questions as best I can below:



Jasper's Bloke said:


> I am trying to find a local suppliers to give me enough variety to go fully raw but have had a few disappointing conversations with independent butchers.


I found it took me quite a while to work out suppliers and such like, thats why I spent so long being lazy and just buying everything from the supermarket and butchers!  I dont tend to ask for anything for the dog or they give me a load of rubbish - I just ask for exactly what I want and find it works better like that. Once you have got to know them a bit more and have been regularly buying from there, then you can broach the topic of getting things cheaper/in bulk/holding things by specifically for the dog etc 



Jasper's Bloke said:


> How variable does the diet need to be?


Obviously at the start, we always advise to try and stick with one protein for a bit until they are settled and then gradually introduce one new thing at a time...and finally after a month or two add a tiny bit of offal at a time and build up. However, as your dogs have had a bit here and there, you can probably start adding some variety now.

I wouldnt personally feed so much tripe to 50% of their food. But then I know that sleeping_lion does this just fine. Personally I feel a little tripe is fine, but everything in moderation and the more variety you can provide the better in an ideal world...so you just need to try and do what works for you and your dogs - see how they go on it first and then decide.



Jasper's Bloke said:


> Going by the 80/10/10 ratio should most of the meals be just meat without bone?


This is a rough guide and I probably feed nearer 15% bone - anyone with a puppy or just starting out/switching over would also likely feed more bone too. I tend to suggest feeding to tolerance - so if you find that your dogs are fine on 15% and it keeps their poops nice and firm (but obviously not constipated!) then you are doing fine. If they have trouble passing it, then you need to reduce bone content etc...it is all pretty flexible depending on what other items are fed and what sources your meat is from.

I feed roughly one meal a day meat only, one meal a day with bone in - this could be something like meaty lamb ribs or it could be a rabbit 1/4. However, if I were to feed a whole chicken carcass, I would probably feed a couple of meaty meals to follow this as it is very boney.



Jasper's Bloke said:


> I have also read that many people who feed raw fast their dogs for a day a week, still feeding the same overall amount of food, but over 6 days instead of 7. Do you think this is useful?


I personally dont - I feed twice a day and sometimes if it is something large once a day, but I dont skip days.

I have read a lot around this to see if there is any benefit and the main one that I can see is that the dog has a stomach that is highly elastic and with a usual meal it is not particularly effective at breaking down food etc as it doesnt get to stretch out and so cannot make best use of its surface area of its stomach...so of course if you were to feed say 3 meals worth in one afternoon it would utilise much more of the stomach and make it more efficient. But of course you would then need to skip a meal the following day. So the benefit itself is in the feeding of large meals, rather than the fasting itself. I will try and find some info on it for you as I was reading a particularly relevant article the other day but need to find it.



Jasper's Bloke said:


> My dog has been on 2 meals a day for the last 18 months, morning and evening, would it be better to switch to one? If the food passes through an adjusted dog in 4-6 hours would an evening meal not result in the need to toilet during the night? Would morning meals be better if this is the case.


The only thing you may notice is that if you feed at exactly the same time twice a day currently, and then you try and skip meals etc, the dogs stomach already predicts they will be fed as they get into a pattern. Tthe stomach then starts to produce bile etc at a set time in preparation, but if no food comes, the dog could potentially be sick. (this would be the same with kibble/raw etc)...so if you plan to change meal times, do it gradually and move the meal times by a small amount earlier and earlier - this will break the pattern and then you can move meals to where you like.

But as I said above, you dont have to feed once a day, some just find it easier to feed once as it means you can feed bigger items. Most people I know that feed once actually feed in the eve. I havent found it makes maggie need the loo in the night? I guess if you fed early evening and the dog didnt have a toilet break last thing at night then there could be a problem...



Jasper's Bloke said:


> How does raw feeding affect the likelihood of bloat/gastric torsion? Understandably he is going to eat a meaty bone or chicken leg a lot slower than he would kibble, but how soon after a meal is it safe to exercise? At the moment he has kibble around 730 and a big walk (1-2 hours off lead) just after 9, with a further 20 minutish off lead run in the evening.


Really its pretty much the same for raw as it is kibble regards exercise - obviously if you did decide to feed a massive meal (3 meals worth etc) one day then you would probably want to wait a bit longer...

However, as a rule I think it is best to always allow 2 hours before any exercise and my agility club asks for us to not feed for 3 hours prior. This is what I did back when I fed kibble and what I still try and stick to now.

Hope that all helps! :thumbup:


----------



## Sam1309

i just read this thread from start to finish... 

fab thread thank you very much

just going to copy the good bits of info and print them out (not saying its not all good but i'm just stealing the bits of info not the chat)


thanks Katie


----------



## Nonnie

How do you deal with flies?

My boys had a bone this afternoon, and within a matter of minutes there must have been around 20 flies and a handful of wasps loitering around.


----------



## katiefranke

Nonnie said:


> How do you deal with flies?
> 
> My boys had a bone this afternoon, and within a matter of minutes there must have been around 20 flies and a handful of wasps loitering around.


To be honest I very rarely feed outside...but when I do it is normally really hot, so I am feeding a frozen meal, so it doesn't attract the flies really.

Maybe keep it really cold in the fridge and only let them have it for a short time if it is recreational?

Unfortunately flies seem to be a particular problem in a lot of places regardless of what you feed - my mother in law doesnt feed raw etc so she gives just normal chews and things to her dogs but they only have to be outside with them for about 5 mins and they get flies around them 

And we have found that since they are doing the recycling scheme round here, we get loads of flies round the neighbours bins, yuk!


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## Jasper's Bloke

katiefranke said:


> Hope that all helps! :thumbup:


Certainly does, thank you so very much!!!

Meal times are never fixed in our house, ours or the dog, lol!!!

I have emailed the Dog Food Co for some more details so will see what they say but for now I am going to try and wean him off his morning meal by adjusting portions. I will try splitting his main meals between chicken legs and the tripe and spread some of the other items out through the week.

The thing that impresses me the most about this diet, apart from the fantastic condition of my dog, is that it is so flexible. I am not worried about bones (he chomped a massive beef rib this morning that I thought was going to be too tough - once he worked out what to do with it!) and I have stopped worrying about getting a 'complete' meal every day. As long as I give him a bit of everything over the course of the week I can relax.

All thanks the the fabulous Katie Franke!!!

Now all I have to do is get into a routine to get stuff out of the freezer, the tripe I got this morning didn't defrost in time, duh, so much to learn!


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## katiefranke

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Now all I have to do is get into a routine to get stuff out of the freezer, the tripe I got this morning didn't defrost in time, duh, so much to learn!


Lol!! yeah I know what you mean  I remember that.

I find that it is easiest if I get both maggie's meals out for the following day last thing at night. I put them in a glass dish which seems to stay cool and so that by the time I get up, the stuff is defrosted but still very chilled. I then feed her the morning meal, and put the evening meal in the meat drawer in the fridge :thumbup:

If I ever forget to get something out, I find she is ok eating partially defrosted meat meals OR I just have a few cans of tinned salmon on hand and would give this along with an egg cracked into it or something similar.


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## bernermum

Thank you katiefranke for the recipes , I made mutt muffins and peanut treats last night (well this morning as it was afer midnight lol). Tiberious turned his nose up at the biscuits but loves the muffins. Barnaby as usual ate everything lol. I must keep them out of his way as he has now learned how to open my kitchen cupboard doors as well as the house doors!! I think he was a cat in an early life:thumbup:.

My hubby and I also tried them not too keen of the biscuits but the muffins are fine :lol::lol:

I gave muffins to the farm dogs as well - loved them.
I worked out that it had cost me around 5p per muffin instead of £1 per muffin from Bluewater excellent. I did use Sainsburys basics peanut butter and honey which is less than half of the named brands and the eggs were from my hens-More baking over the weekend!!

Just to go off topic how do you upload pictures I have been trying for days to no avail. My boys have just been cleaned up today by the groomer and I wanted to upload pics before their white bits get dirty

CJ


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## Blobbet

Just a lil update 

Everythings still going fine , they're both starting to toilet more normally now 
Gave them a second little bit of liver last night, and today they had their first egg and fish dinner hehe
Gave them a whole egg each all crushed up with shell and then some tinned sardines with bones still in all mashed into the egg (it looked absolutely disgusting !! :lol they both loved it and cleaned the bowls out :thumbup:

Think i'm starting to notice their teeth getting a bit cleaner too!


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## katiefranke

bernermum said:


> Thank you katiefranke for the recipes


Which link was that from then? Sorry I cant think where I posted a link to muffins etc 

Re the piccies, I usually use something like Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket and upload them to there and then it generates a link for you. You take the one that looks like: link [url] and paste it directly i...w? beautiful shiny coats they have :thumbup:


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## lozb

Baxter just ate raw fish! First time 
I was worried about the variety in his raw diet - he has meat/offal but he does not like egg at all... anyway... no fish.. up till now! :thumbup:
Might have been the fact that one of the cats was happy to munch on it...
Was frozen first, was trout - crikey, hope that's okay for them!

he's loving his raw diet - mince/chicken/beef/dogmeat off the market/bones...
loves it!


----------



## Blobbet

katiefranke said:


> thats great news! I noticed it took a little while for my cats but now they have brilliant white teeth and yet they were awful before! i am so pleased with them  your piccies in your signature are lovely - is that new? beautiful shiny coats they have :thumbup:


Thanks 
We've only had Charlie for about 3 months now so the pics of her are just all my favourite ones since we got her hehe , and the ones of Tammy are a jumble , some were taken in the last few months and some are of her when she was alot younger, if you look closely, roughly near the middle is one of her on her first day home as a puppy ! 
Haven't actually taken any since starting the raw diet though  hope to get some more soon :thumbup:

Anyway... sorry for being totally off topic lol


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## Jasper's Bloke

My top tip for any other raw rookies, don't feed tripe and chicken legs in the same bowl unless you want blood stains on the landing carpet where your dog takes his chicken to munch up! This only leads to more blood when the wife finds it.

Another lesson learned the hard way.


----------



## EBT

One week done on the new diet and all is good. They seemed to have adjusted well, no problems with the eating or toileting with the raw food. They've had chicken only, one meal with bone, one meal just breast for the first week and just introduced tripe into diet this morning. Got two beast hearts cut up in freezer ready to go but they'll have to wait until next week. Don't want to push it when it's going so well.
This ongoing thread is an invaluable resource, thanks to everyone who contributes :thumbup:
Sorry I can't offer any advice, I'm a newbie to all this!


----------



## oveione

Hi just like to say my pup is loving his raw meals he can now crunch his bones quite well and has the best poos for a 10 week old puppy havent had one runny poo so all good ! and he can handle new foods better then sassy in the loo department!


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## katiefranke

big thumbs up to EBT and oveione :thumbup: :thumbup: sounds like you are doing a great job 

ask away with any questions!


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## princesssaskia

WOW what a fantastic thread - many thanks to Katie for all the useful info

I made the switch to RAW a few yrs ago, following years of skin probs with my bull terriers - Ive never looked back and they have never looked better!

I just wanted to add a few points - and welcome any comments or advice i might receive in return!

Firstly, for all of you new to RAW, and posting on this thread, you are not alone in your fears/concerns, but as others have rightly replied all dogs are individuals and adjust in their own time and to different foods. Also I have found that im always learning, I read as much as i can all the time and listen to others experiences - yes sometimes the info is conflicting, but you have to find your own path through it all - whatever works best for you and your mutts - never be afraid to make informed changes to your RAW diet plan - I have altered mine many times and now have something my dogs and i are really comfortable with. Let the health of your dog be the guide - learn what is 'normal' and be vigilant for any change from that state. If your dog is a good weight, with healthy coat, clear eyes, white teeth, good breath, minimum 'gas', good energy levels and a happy disposition then its :thumbup:

The main point I wanted to make was that although Katie has mentioned free range meats a few times, I personally prefer to feed only organic meats as far as possible. Even meat deemed fit for human consumption is, in my opinion, still tainted with growth hormones and antibiotics and if, as in the case of our dogs, a diet is comprised predominantly of meat and bones, then I would prefer said meat and bones to be as free of chemicals/hormones as poss. Obviously cost is an issue (im not rich by any stretch!!!!!) but I have found that I can get organic free range lamb liver, heart and kidney, chicken liver and chicken wings and carcasses VERY reasonably priced (50p per carcass) ordering direct from organic farms. I get mine from Ensors in Gloucestershire - they even deliver for free. 1 carcass feeds both my bull terrier and my collie for 1 meal.

The other point I wanted to make - and aimed at people like EBT - is that not all dogs can tolerate 100% all meat meals. My beautiful bullie did fine for the first year but then developed horrible lumps all over her body - my fab homeopath friend helped sort her out and we worked out that it was because of a proliferation of undigested protein in her body. Cutting the amount of meat right down was obviously the answer, however this left my baby hungry, so I bulk her meals out with organic pasta, rice, muesli or ryvitta plus some cooked or blended veg. I feed 2 meals a day, one of meat and one of meat and bones (as katie has recommended) but my ratios are probably 60% meat or meat/bones, 25% rice/pasta/muesli or ryvitta and 15% veg/fruit. I also add offal and eggs twice a week as well as supplements like a spoonful of organic honey, probiotic yoghurt, flax oil, nuts and seeds

Finally a word on fish. Not sure if everyone has a local market (we lucky to live in a cotswold village with farmers market weekly) with a 'fish man' who sells fresh fish out the back of his van? Anyway, I cach him toward the end of the market, when he usually has a big bag of 'trimmings' and I get them for FREE !!!!! includes a whole variety of fish bits, heads, tails etc - I also feed tinned pilchards and sardines if I miss the fish man!

Happy to share my dog menu (yes I have an anally devised fully detailed weekly menu taped to my fridge - which amuses everyone who visits!!!!!) just pm me if you are interested in seeing it

Thanks for hearing me out and cant wait to read your replies xxxxxxxxxxx


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## EBT

princesssaskia said:


> The other point I wanted to make - and aimed at people like EBT - is that not all dogs can tolerate 100% all meat meals. My beautiful bullie did fine for the first year but then developed horrible lumps all over her body - my fab homeopath friend helped sort her out and we worked out that it was because of a proliferation of undigested protein in her body.


My 10 month EBT had a few small lumps/spots on his legs which have started clearing up now since the new diet. Maybe a coincidence but least they're going. I'll definitely keep an eye on their skin though thanks, common problem with bullies.
You say you have a bully, is it an English or Staff? Always glad to hear from a fellow English Bully owner!


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## Sam1309

hey, if you could post your menu's up here i think it would benefit many people including myself


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## princesssaskia

EBT said:


> My 10 month EBT had a few small lumps/spots on his legs which have started clearing up now since the new diet.


This is exactly why a natural diet is so good. All of the Bull terrier breeds have sensitive immune systems and are easily upset, more often than not this shows up in the skin first, with hair loss, rashes, lumps and bumps. Many people find these are eliminated after switching to a RAW diet - this is exactly how I was introduced to it

My baby is an English Bully by the way 'Princess Saskia' aka 'Crystal'!

I feel I ought to elaborate on my 'not all dogs can tolerate a 100% meat' point a little..............

What I have found is that feeding free range and/or organic RAW high grade protein is so good that, in some cases, it can be too good - thus leading to problems like the proliferation of undigested protein that my bully had (resulting in an outbreak of lumps all over her back as her body tried desperately to rid itself of the undigested protein which had turned toxic in her system)

It may be that if your dog is older, or fairly inactive - as EBT will know our bullies are VERY lazy despite their 'moments of madness' mine is only a year old but sleeps way more than the collie pup I also have which is VERY high energy - then you need to feed less meat and instead bulk out the meals with potato, rice, pasta or cereals. alternatively you can cook the meat which reduces its richness somewhat

I will post later with my doggies weekly menu, as requested xxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## katiefranke

Hi princesssaskia - sorry haven't been online much this week as on leave! But just checked in. welcome to the thread 

would be interesting if you could elaborate on this condition some more, as a couple of other people mentioned this to me and said it was very specific to the EBT breed which I found interesting - one actually said it was not the breed but was common in white dogs?

they said very similar to you but couldn't really provide any further info at the time. I have been researching canine digestion for some time now to understand how best to modify the raw diet to suit, and in my research I have read numerous papers, veterinary manuals and such like on canine biochemistry to understand the functions and reactions within the body produced by protein/fat/carbs etc...and I haven't come across anything to explain the 'build up of undigested protein' UNLESS there is an underlying health issue or other deficiency which means that the correct processes cannot occur within the body to digest and utilise the protein...?

Of course vegetables/plants also contain proteins, but they are not the highly available/digestible proteins with complete amino acid chains found in animals - so do you find that vegetable proteins are not the ones that cause a build up? - it is interesting as these do not contain all the amino acids needed, so I wonder if it is something related to a particular amino acid/s?

----------

After speaking to the others, I actually discussed this with my vet (pro-raw, holistic vet), as I am always trying to find as much info as possible to ensure I modify my pets' diets in line with the best info I have, and he also said he has seen this himself, but that it was due to an underlying condition in the dog which was already present, rather than the diet itself - and as such, as per any health condition, the diet should be modified to suit...

But he was also very swift to point out that he especially wouldn't add grains into the diet, as grains are even harder for a dog to process, regardless of whether they are organic/whole grains etc, and so could possibly exaccerbate issues in many cases - especially those with sensitivities. Also this would not deal with the underlying issue. He instead suggested playing around with the levels of proteins within the animal sources (rather than opt for plant proteins) - so maybe reduce meat content slightly but add in cheese and more fish as this is lower in protein than the meats but still an animal protein. The different meats have different protein contents, so levels can be adjusted without resorting to non-animal sources. Apparently if this doesnt help, fruit should be added, as this is much more digestible than veg or grains. Failing that, dark green, leafy veg with a low GI should be added...

This all seemed very interesting and did fit with what I had researched so far indepenently, however, as per most conversations with vets, it was rather short and sweet and so he unfortunately didn't elaborate any further and I didn't get time to ask any more questions...!

I guess this might be an example of where it is definitely a case of weighing up individual circumstances, history, health conditions etc of the dog to decide what is best for their particular diet.

----------

PS: the reason I go for free-range is because our local butcher gets the meat from certain farms which I have checked out as to their practices (they are anti-biotic and hormone free) and they eat a species appropriate diet... However, as far as I understand it, organic doesn't automatically mean they were grass-fed etc - but means organic ingredients for their feed...which could of course be grass-fed for cattle, but if not then it would mean a lack of omega 3 etc...although looking at your supplier above it looks brill, so a good organic source 

I also like wild game, as I feel that this is pretty much as good as you can get with regards to appropriate sources for their diet.

I think the key is to always check out the sources of the meat, what they are fed, how they are treated, if anything is added to their feed etc, no matter what it is advertised to be.

Thanks for suggesting your own suppliers, I am sure that will be very handy for people reading the thread :thumbup:


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## Blobbet

Got my new freezer delivered yesterday :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Was just going to get a little tabletop one but then decided on one thats about 3x bigger lol 
It has a 102 litre capacity , not sure if thats gross or net but i'm sure it's more than big enough for 2 small dogs 
It's actually in our bedroom on top of a chest of drawers as it couldn't go anywhere else lol
Just glad i don't have to worry about how much food i order now 

Can't believe it's been 3 1/2 weeks since they started, gone so fast!


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## katiefranke

Blobbet said:


> It's actually in our bedroom on top of a chest of drawers as it couldn't go anywhere else lol


lol!! the things we do for our animals!!


----------



## Sam1309

quick question

i have a smple menu for bear.

he's to have 100g of mince on one day along with other sutff but not to have that same kind of mince for another few days... how do i cute the frozen block up as it comes frozen from the supplier??


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## katiefranke

Sam1309 said:


> he's to have 100g of mince on one day along with other sutff but not to have that same kind of mince for another few days... how do i cute the frozen block up as it comes frozen from the supplier??


sorry not too sure as I dont feed the minces  but am guessing maybe try some sort of poultry shears which might cut through it?

or you could bash it with a rolling pin while in its pack and then get out what you need?

failing all that, a lot of the commercial raw suppliers actually do free-flow minces, so that you can pour out what you need rather than it coming in a big block...


----------



## Sam1309

katiefranke said:


> sorry not too sure as I dont feed the minces  but am guessing maybe try some sort of poultry shears which might cut through it?
> 
> or you could bash it with a rolling pin while in its pack and then get out what you need?
> 
> failing all that, a lot of the commercial raw suppliers actually do free-flow minces, so that you can pour out what you need rather than it coming in a big block...


this had crossed my mind, but the mince is from a local supplier, the chickens and other animals are less than 5 miles from my house and i have seen the living conditions and am happy with them.


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## Jasper's Bloke

Just a quick query, I know that people have said before about feeding whole fish and I have just filleted a couple of sea bass for my tea, so am I ok to give the remaining carcass to the dog. He loves fish and was going crazy while I was working on it, but I am a little worried about the small bones. Is it just a case of close supervision?


----------



## Jasper's Bloke

Sam1309 said:


> how do i cute the frozen block up as it comes frozen from the supplier??


A meat cleaver and a sturdy chopping board should do the trick, but watch those fingers otherwise Bear will be getting a little too much meat!


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## katiefranke

Sam1309 said:


> this had crossed my mind, but the mince is from a local supplier, the chickens and other animals are less than 5 miles from my house and i have seen the living conditions and am happy with them.


ah ok - that sounds good 

As it is all local then, you could do a bit of digging and see if you could pick it up before it is frozen directly from the source? You could then reportion and freeze at home?

how much do the blocks come in? could you defrost and it lasts a couple of days...or is there too much?



Jasper's Bloke said:


> Just a quick query, I know that people have said before about feeding whole fish and I have just filleted a couple of sea bass for my tea, so am I ok to give the remaining carcass to the dog. He loves fish and was going crazy while I was working on it, but I am a little worried about the small bones. Is it just a case of close supervision?


Yep, its just like any other meat - there are funny little bones in fish, but if you can give in whole chunks and you supervise, it should be fine :thumbsup:


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## princesssaskia

Hi Katie

Fab reply to my post - thanks

I dont profess to be an expert, indeed I am only really starting out on my journey of natural feeding and holistic healing - though I am studying hard!

Basically all I can say is that when Crystal was a young pup I was feeding her predominantly raw meat and bones (with only token bits of veg/grain) she grew strong and healthy and maintained a nice weight - she had perfect skn, teeth and coat and I was really happy. Then when she got to about a year she started to develop these lumps, you could see them beneath her fur, especially in bright light and they were positioned on her throat, all over her back and down her hind legs. She was also grazing LOADS on plants and grass whenever she got the chance. My homeopath friend told me that I should have reduced her meat intake as her growth was slowing down and that basically I had been feeding her to bursting point on rich meat and bones. She said her organs were trying to expel the protein that had been undigested and turned 'toxic' in her system, hence the lumps. She said she needed fiber to help re-balance he, thats why she was eating loads of plants - but these in turn were exacerbating the problem as the plant protein (especially in RAW form) was not right for her either. She recommended I put her on 4x a day tablets of the homeopathic remedy 'Arsenicum Album' (30c) and fed her cooked chicken, loads of fiber and minimal or no veg. I dd this for 2 months and she improved greatly after just 1 week. I then followed this up with 2x a day tablets of the remedy 'Silicea' (30c) and gradually started to reintroduce her old diet - be it with changes to portion sizes and component percentages. She is looking amazing at the moment. I find all this so interesting, thats why I am now studying myself, as I want to learn and understand more.

I have found through my reading so far that the subject of all meat/bones Vs grain & veg is very controversial. I do think owners need to make their own minds up based on their knowledge thus far and tailored to their animals. Personally I feed only small amounts of pasta or rice as fillers, or ryvitta, oat crackers or muesli. The veg I feed is predominantly green leafy and is always steamed and fed in small smounts, simulating the stomach contents of the prey animals they would eat in wild.

Both my girls and my old staffie x ridgeback look fab on this diet and I have come to the conclusion that whatever some people feel about grain - dogs would consume this in the wild (via stomach contents of prey) and Im not feeding it in the quantities that pet manufacturers do!!!!!!

Anyway, got to sign off now and eat my tea! but I will be back to post my menu later xxxxx


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## LeeM018

What a fascinating thread! I'm currently planning on feeding my inbound pup on Nature Diet....but every time I read this thread I become more and more tempted to try raw! 

I may settle on a half and half as I'm a little bit paranoid about stories I've read with regards to dogs acquiring 'wild' temperaments due to diets overly high in protein. Please feel free to extinguish my layman fears at your leisure


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## princesssaskia

Hi Guys

As promised, attached to this post is my weekly doggie menu (i hope!)

Just wanted to make a few points. This menu is very much a guide for me, generally I stick to it but its no sweat if I mix days up, or miss bits out if not available to me that day. I also add appropriate table scraps most days. So long as my dogs diet is balanced over the space of a month its all good.

I feed both my girls this diet. 'Lexi' a 7mnth Collie X Terrier and 'Crystal' my 1yr 3mnths English Bull Terrier. Generally they eat the same amount but I tend to favour Crystal with the Bones (as English Bulls have a greater need for calcium than most dogs) and Lexi the Meat (as she is VERY high energy and still growing fast) Obviously you should tailor portion sizes to the Breed/Build/Age/Activity Levels of your own dog.

All my Chicken and Organ Meats is free range organic, the rabbit is wild and the fish fresh where poss. I usually lightly cook the lamb and beef, only cos its not organic

In addition I feed my own all natural parasite/flea remedies daily. For flea management I mix equal amounts of nutritional (non active) yeast with garlic granules and add 1tsp to the evening feed. For parasite control I mix Pumpkin seeds, Cayenne Pepper, Coconut (finely ground & unsweetened), Freshly ground Cloves, Thyme, Sage & Wormwood powder, again I feed a tsp of this mix to each dog once a day (sometimes less)

Finally, the veg patty's mentioned in my menu plan are kept in my freezer on standby and fed only when I have a lack of appropriate table scraps (I eat veggie 5/6 days a week, so most of my scraps substitute for the veg patties - if I leave anything on my plate that is!!!!!!). To make the veg patties, I buy bulk seasonal veg from supermarkets, grow some myself, or scrounge off other growers, I also plunder the hedgerows - selecting plants/herbs for their medicinal properties or those that are likely to be eaten by prey animals like rabbits). I chop and lightly steam everything I have collected, divide into single serving pattys and freeze. The patty's are a mix of any of the following:

	Sweet potato
	Butternut squash
	Spinach
	Banana
	Apple
	Mushrooms
	Avocado
	Beetroot
	Plums/Damsons/Greengages
	Blackberries / Elderberries 
	Kale
	Carrot
	Celery
	Ginger
	Herbs - rosemary/parsley/thyme/basil/coriander/oregano/chives/sage
	Cress
	Dandelion
	Nettle
	Clover 
	Courgette
	Lentils
	Mixed beans
	Lettuce
	Peppers
	Fennel
	Papaya


----------



## Blobbet

Hey, just a quick question...

Wondering if anyone can tell me how long i should freeze pork for to make sure it's safe from parasites etc? 
Got some meaty pork ribs on thursday which have been in the freezer since, but thought i remembered reading somewhere to freeze pork for 3 weeks to kill the worms/parasites whatever? 
Just want to check before i give any , don't plan on feeding them for a couple of weeks yet though as their just getting used to lamb first


----------



## Sam1309

off tomorrow to get my minces etc etc


----------



## katiefranke

hey everyone! sorry not been online much as been away, but im back now 

Hi *LeeM018*, good for you to consider feeding raw, but I promise you, it doesnt turn them 'wild'!!! lol  this is something of an old wive's tale...
Some food for though here  Myths About Raw: Will raw meat make my dog bloodthirsty?

*Blobbet* freezing times vary dependant on who you ask! I try and do it for 3 weeks, but must admit I am not particularly religious on this and haven't had any issues.  - some just say 48 hours at -20C...


----------



## Blobbet

Thanks Katie 

As i say not planning on giving them too soon , so should be fine.

I wanted to order some stuff from the dog food company soon but then i ended up ordering way too much chicken from the supermarket lol, so now i have to wait until they've eaten most of that up  

They seem to be staying a nice healthy weight so far even though they're having more like 3-3.5% of body weight lol  
Their teeth are starting to get noticably cleaner too , with less stinky breath! and Charlie doesn't have such a strong doggy odor :thumbup:
She was also always scratching hers ears quite often and doesn't seem to be doing that anymore, only occasionally


----------



## katiefranke

Thats great news! :thumbup: these are all the kind of great benefits you tend to see in the first few months of feeding raw  and if they are showing these benefits on the outside, just think how much good it is doing them on the inside 

I think I need to place another order soon...need some tripe and game is becoming available again...just need to get my freezer in! I had one ordered and they cancelled my order as they had a problem with manufacturers  so had to find another one. Should be coming next week and then i can stock up!!


----------



## sky's mum

Hi, Im new 

What a great thread and it has gone some way to ease my confusion and fears about feeding raw.

Just a quick question, I have a GSD shes 12 months old and weighs 32kg, should I feed her 2-3% of her body weight or more because shes a puppy still?

Also do you know it the dog food company delivers in Bedfordshire?


----------



## Sam1309

got all my food for bear today!!!!!


so here we go!


----------



## LouJ69

Hi Sky's mum-as far as I know, you're supposed to feed puppies 3% of their expected adult weight & not 3% of what they weigh now. Well done Sam 1309! Just thought I'd let you all know that Monty & alpha started their raw meaty bones diet today-they both got a heart each & raw chicken legs, bone in. They nearly took the hand off me for them!lol Poor Monty seemed confused though-he kept looking at me as if he was looking for his usual dinner too-he's such a creature of habit! I'll post some pics as soon as I can. I'll keep you all posted on how we get on. I have food prepared for the next 5 days-not bad for a vegetarian, hey?!


----------



## katiefranke

sky's mum said:


> Hi, Im new
> 
> What a great thread and it has gone some way to ease my confusion and fears about feeding raw.
> 
> Just a quick question, I have a GSD shes 12 months old and weighs 32kg, should I feed her 2-3% of her body weight or more because shes a puppy still?
> 
> Also do you know it the dog food company delivers in Bedfordshire?


Hi there, welcome to the forum, and the thread!! lol

At 12 months old, she will still have a way to go to reach her final adult weight, so I would take a guess at her final weight based on your best guess (were her parents big or small, does she look like she is almost full grown or has some way to go, is she of a big build etc)...I am not 100% sure but I think GSD bitch bitches can be around 35-45kg?

So maybe make a guess of say 30kg and do 3% as she is still growing - which would be around 900g a day.

Once you start feeding this way you will soon know if it is too much or not enough by feeling her ribs and observing energy levels etc. 

Re the dog food company, I am not sure of exact delivery areas, so just email them to check, but I would think they would considering they are based up in suffolk and deliver all the way down to me in surrey for £5


----------



## sky's mum

Hi thanks for the info.

Is there anywhere on the internet that I can get sample menu's, or can you suggest one?

I will start her on just chicken, but I need to get organised to order things in.


----------



## katiefranke

This is a great summary of what to feed, when to feed, how to feed, how much to feed...even where to feed!!  So take a look at this:
Practical Answers to Practical Questions About Raw

But as for menus - it really depends what you can get hold of, the size of your dog, how quickly they take to the raw diet etc etc... by all means place an order to get some stock in and frozen, but you will be adding a new protein every week to two weeks and will probably take you about 3 months to get into some sort of routine with variety.

Initially as you said, start with chicken. If you want to just buy some bits from the supermarket/butcher that are easy to get hold of, whole chickens cut up do very nicely.

So for a dog of her size I would start with something like chicken quarters - so the wing, breast and ribs all joined in a lump, or the thigh & leg all joined in a lump. Quarters are usually around 200-250g each depending on the size of the chicken, so 4 of these would do for your daily allowance. However, so that it is not quite so boney, I would substitute one of the quarters for some filleted chicken thighs (no-bone) chucked in instead. Note: you could feed a chicken half for the meal allowance weight-wise, but initially it might be best to start with smaller pieces as she might not know what to do with it otherwise!

*So Week 1-2:
Breakfast: chicken thighs (meat-only) + chicken quarter
Dinner: x2 chicken quarters
And repeat each day...*

This is still a little too much bone for long-term but it often helps to start slightly on the boney side for newbies to counteract any potential upset from the change in diet.

Now depending on what her toileting is like during and at the end of this week, will determine what you do next - i.e. potentially continue for another week as above, adjust meat to bone slightly, add another protein.

When it is time to add another meat, lets just say lamb, the way I did it was to substitute every 3rd meal for the new protein for that week. So stick with the chicken as above but replace every 3rd meal with the new protein.

So for instance:

*Week 3-4:
Day 1: 
Breakfast: chicken thighs (meat-only) + chicken quarter
Dinner: x2 chicken quarters
Day 2:
Breakfast: hunk of lamb meat/diced lamb/minced lamb etc...depending on what you can get hold of. Maybe even chunk of lamb plus a chunk of the chicken carcass left over from portioning your chickens, if you would prefer to add the new protein more slowly.
Dinner: x2 chicken quarters
Day 3:
Breakfast: chicken thighs (meat-only) + chicken quarter
Dinner: Slab of say 4-8 lamb ribs, something like that, all joined in a slab. If you feed say 4, you could add some lamb or chicken meat along with it as the ribs are pretty boney.
And repeat...*

Then assuming this is all ok, you maybe want to add rabbit say...the rabbits I get are probably about 900g each, so again, x2 quarters would do for a meal. I think around this point I started adding some heart, liver and kidney to the diet too, but very slowly. Heart is quite rich but meaty so its not so bad, but kidney & liver must be added in very tiny pieces. So again, add the new items into the other proteins you have been feeding, so just an example:

*Weeks 5-6:
Day 1: 
Breakfast: chicken thighs (meat-only) + rabbit quarter
Dinner: x2 chicken quarters
Day 2:
Breakfast: lamb meat
Dinner: x2 chicken quarters
Day 3:
Breakfast: chicken thighs (meat-only) + chicken quarter
Dinner: x2 chicken quarters (as its been a day of a bland protein and a reasonable amount of bone, add either a half a lamb heart OR a fingernail-sized piece of liver or kidney).
Day 4:
Breakfast: lamb meat
Dinner: x1 chicken quarter + x1 rabbit quarter
Day 5: 
Breakfast: chicken thighs (meat-only) + rabbit quarter
Dinner: Slab of say 4-8 lamb ribs, something like that, all joined in a slab, depedant on how big the ribs - as this is a boney meal, add either a half a lamb heart OR a fingernail-sized piece of liver or kidney.
And repeat...*

After that, you do exactly the same, but add beef (brisket, mince etc), pork (ribs, shoulder), turkey (breast, leg, chunks, necks etc), tripe (chunks or minced), oily fish (preferably whole raw, some feed just heads, some feed cooked tinned). At some point in the future you might also start adding (a small amount at a time) some crushed up egg (white, yolk & shell) with a meal and build up to a couple or so a week. Also if you dont feed fish regularly you might want to add a small amount of cold-pressed salmon/fish body oil daily for omega 3, such as: http://www.lintbells.com/salmopet

If at any point it looks like something has upset her tum, you have probably gone a bit too far too fast, so take a step back, go back to the proteins you know she can deal with for a day or two, then try again but a much smaller piece.

If she has very hard boney poops you need to up the meat and if she has loose poops, you need to up bone or reduce rich foods or take the skin off the foods for the time being (fat can upset their tums are first).

I hope that helps! I will also add a rough meal plan of what I feed maggie to the start of the thread for people to look at. It changes all the time, so its a bit difficult to put a usual menu but I will give it a go! But remember that what I feed maggie now after this long is obviously a lot more variety that you will want to feed initially 

edit: Meal plan now added to front page of thread: http://www.petforums.co.uk/1692524-post5.html


----------



## BSH

I recently tried by cats on Darlings raw minces for working dogs. This is the 100% meat variety which they make. Initially they loved it and ate all the 3 Kg introductory pack so I bought 15Kg of the minces. Now they wil only eat the Beef variety. Typical! So now I have 4 Kg each of chicken, lamb and rabbit varieties in my freezer.

If any of you dog owners feed raw minces to your dogs and would like to have these please get in touch with a PM. Darlings charge £5.95-£6.95 / Kg (it's not cheap!) but I am happy to pass it on for a fraction of that price. I would hate to see it wasted.

You would need to collect it. I am in the Exeter, Devon area.

I look forward to hearing from you if you are interested.


----------



## princesssaskia

Katie - your answers are so thorough and helpful - thanks, I wish I had all this support when I first started feeding raw. I just sort of threw myself into it and learnt as i went along - you are right in saying that your menues arn't constant, I think this is a really inportant point, mine changes in relation to seasonal foods (e.g 'game' right about now!) ANd also as I read and learn more. It really helps to know what, and how, other BARF/RAW fans feed but its important to find what works for YOUR dogs, let them be the guide, as you say, judge by their energy levels, weight, poops etc

My bull terrier pup started as soon as i got her home from breeder, I was so excited as I had been experimenting with my older dog for a year but he wasnt too keen on raw bones! and looked at me as if to say 'this is not the civilised way to eat my dinner, you know. I think you forgot to cook it!!!!' :lol: I couln't wait to start a dog from scratch - crystal is now a year old and eats a massive variety of stuff (see my earlier current menu plan post) and loves it and looks great on it! she is our pampered princess!

In contrast, I got Lexi as a 5mth old pup from the rescue cetre, where she had been for 2months (eating cheap kibble) after being found abandoned in an old building at 3mnths!!!! (eating god knows what). I started her on cooked beef and chicken, little bit of cooked grain and simple steamed veg. she took to it really well, and by day 3 I was adding bone and by end of wk 2 she was already eating her meat/bones raw. She was so thin I just wanted to crack on getting some proper food in her and as she seemed to react well I moved quite fast. i have now had her 3mnths and in that time only had a prob with introducing rich things like liver, kidney, egg and raw fish - I have now learnt to give her smaller amounts of these things, she likes them but her system quite gentle, cant handle it and so just throws it all back up ! She has already plumped up nicely but the main difference I have noticed is her teeth and coat. at 5mnths old her teeth were already yellow and had plague round them! now they are gleaming white. Her coat was lank and smelly, now its beautiful!


----------



## katiefranke

BSH said:


> I recently tried by cats on Darlings raw minces for working dogs. This is the 100% meat variety which they make. Initially they loved it and ate all the 3 Kg introductory pack so I bought 15Kg of the minces. Now they wil only eat the Beef variety. Typical! So now I have 4 Kg each of chicken, lamb and rabbit varieties in my freezer.


I did try these too, but found my cats wouldnt touch the stuff and maggie had an upset tum 

I also started to notice that although it said it was the meat/bones/offal, it contained carrots and other green bits and bobs, so I was not at all convinced that it was what it said it was!! The veg was prob the reason for the cats not touching it too as they dont like anything like that.

I also found that their packaging for the deliveries left a LOT to be desired and it took two attempts just to get me out a sample box of stuff as the first one got delivered to a completely different house up the street where they just left the box outside the house next to wheelie bins in direct sunlight! By the time the kind neighbour brought it round to mine that night it had flies inside the box! Needless to say, I was less than impressed 



princesssaskia said:


> Katie - your answers are so thorough and helpful - thanks, I wish I had all this support when I first started feeding raw. I just sort of threw myself into it and learnt as i went along - you are right in saying that your menues arn't constant, I think this is a really inportant point, mine changes in relation to seasonal foods (e.g 'game' right about now!) ANd also as I read and learn more. It really helps to know what, and how, other BARF/RAW fans feed but its important to find what works for YOUR dogs, let them be the guide, as you say, judge by their energy levels, weight, poops etc


I wish I had had this much too!! Thats a reason for doing this - I feel very strongly that a raw diet is the best way to feed dogs and cats and just want to make it as easy and non-scary as possible for people wanting to start out!

I completely agree about all the things you say re tailoring to the individual dog - and definitely about feeding what is in season - I am very pleased that it is getting easy to get game again :thumbup:


----------



## sky's mum

katiefranke said:


> This is a great summary of what to feed, when to feed, how to feed, how much to feed...even where to feed!!  So take a look at this:
> Practical Answers to Practical Questions About Raw
> 
> But as for menus - it really depends what you can get hold of, the size of your dog, how quickly they take to the raw diet etc etc... by all means place an order to get some stock in and frozen, but you will be adding a new protein every week to two weeks and will probably take you about 3 months to get into some sort of routine with variety.
> 
> Initially as you said, start with chicken. If you want to just buy some bits from the supermarket/butcher that are easy to get hold of, whole chickens cut up do very nicely.
> 
> So for a dog of her size I would start with something like chicken quarters - so the wing, breast and ribs all joined in a lump, or the thigh & leg all joined in a lump. Quarters are usually around 200-250g each depending on the size of the chicken, so 4 of these would do for your daily allowance. However, so that it is not quite so boney, I would substitute one of the quarters for some filleted chicken thighs (no-bone) chucked in instead. Note: you could feed a chicken half for the meal allowance weight-wise, but initially it might be best to start with smaller pieces as she might not know what to do with it otherwise!
> 
> *So Week 1-2:
> Breakfast: chicken thighs (meat-only) + chicken quarter
> Dinner: x2 chicken quarters
> And repeat each day...*
> 
> This is still a little too much bone for long-term but it often helps to start slightly on the boney side for newbies to counteract any potential upset from the change in diet.
> 
> Now depending on what her toileting is like during and at the end of this week, will determine what you do next - i.e. potentially continue for another week as above, adjust meat to bone slightly, add another protein.
> 
> When it is time to add another meat, lets just say lamb, the way I did it was to substitute every 3rd meal for the new protein for that week. So stick with the chicken as above but replace every 3rd meal with the new protein.
> 
> So for instance:
> 
> *Week 3-4:
> Day 1:
> Breakfast: chicken thighs (meat-only) + chicken quarter
> Dinner: x2 chicken quarters
> Day 2:
> Breakfast: hunk of lamb meat/diced lamb/minced lamb etc...depending on what you can get hold of. Maybe even chunk of lamb plus a chunk of the chicken carcass left over from portioning your chickens, if you would prefer to add the new protein more slowly.
> Dinner: x2 chicken quarters
> Day 3:
> Breakfast: chicken thighs (meat-only) + chicken quarter
> Dinner: Slab of say 4-8 lamb ribs, something like that, all joined in a slab. If you feed say 4, you could add some lamb or chicken meat along with it as the ribs are pretty boney.
> And repeat...*
> 
> Then assuming this is all ok, you maybe want to add rabbit say...the rabbits I get are probably about 900g each, so again, x2 quarters would do for a meal. I think around this point I started adding some heart, liver and kidney to the diet too, but very slowly. Heart is quite rich but meaty so its not so bad, but kidney & liver must be added in very tiny pieces. So again, add the new items into the other proteins you have been feeding, so just an example:
> 
> *Weeks 5-6:
> Day 1:
> Breakfast: chicken thighs (meat-only) + rabbit quarter
> Dinner: x2 chicken quarters
> Day 2:
> Breakfast: lamb meat
> Dinner: x2 chicken quarters
> Day 3:
> Breakfast: chicken thighs (meat-only) + chicken quarter
> Dinner: x2 chicken quarters (as its been a day of a bland protein and a reasonable amount of bone, add either a half a lamb heart OR a fingernail-sized piece of liver or kidney).
> Day 4:
> Breakfast: lamb meat
> Dinner: x1 chicken quarter + x1 rabbit quarter
> Day 5:
> Breakfast: chicken thighs (meat-only) + rabbit quarter
> Dinner: Slab of say 4-8 lamb ribs, something like that, all joined in a slab, depedant on how big the ribs - as this is a boney meal, add either a half a lamb heart OR a fingernail-sized piece of liver or kidney.
> And repeat...*
> 
> After that, you do exactly the same, but add beef (brisket, mince etc), pork (ribs, shoulder), turkey (breast, leg, chunks, necks etc), tripe (chunks or minced), oily fish (preferably whole raw, some feed just heads, some feed cooked tinned). At some point in the future you might also start adding (a small amount at a time) some crushed up egg (white, yolk & shell) with a meal and build up to a couple or so a week. Also if you dont feed fish regularly you might want to add a small amount of cold-pressed salmon/fish body oil daily for omega 3, such as: Salmopet - Lintbells
> 
> If at any point it looks like something has upset her tum, you have probably gone a bit too far too fast, so take a step back, go back to the proteins you know she can deal with for a day or two, then try again but a much smaller piece.
> 
> If she has very hard boney poops you need to up the meat and if she has loose poops, you need to up bone or reduce rich foods or take the skin off the foods for the time being (fat can upset their tums are first).
> 
> I hope that helps! I will also add a rough meal plan of what I feed maggie to the start of the thread for people to look at. It changes all the time, so its a bit difficult to put a usual menu but I will give it a go! But remember that what I feed maggie now after this long is obviously a lot more variety that you will want to feed initially
> 
> edit: Meal plan now added to front page of thread: http://www.petforums.co.uk/1692524-post5.html


Thanks for this 

I hope to start Sky on raw this weekend, I will keep you informed on how I get on.


----------



## Nicky10

Good luck I'm sure Sky will love it


----------



## LouJ69

Well, we're on day 4 now of the full rmb diet & it's going really well-Alpha has a sensitive stomach we & has always had diarrhoea on & off-since we started the diet, her poos are solid & smaller-it's great! The 2 dogs had a bit of diarrhoea after the first day, but since then, I can actually pick up their poo without having to pull up half the grass & hose it down afterwards! Alpha is loving it-at 5 months old, I think she wants to be a world ambassador for raw feeding!lol Monty is still not sure about it at times-he's had raw mince, liver & beef in the past so he's fine with that, but the raw chicken is taking some getting used to. Well, after eating commercial food for over 4 years, it's a big change for him. He's put on a little weight too, which is great as he had lost some recently. I also found a local butchers who do hearts for 40cents each & do stuff like kidney cheap too.


----------



## LouJ69

Sorry I've had to post twice-I'm on my phone. I also wanted to say that I found a meat wholesalers near me who do bags of dogs mince for only 4 for around 3.5kg which is great as I live in Ireland & we don't have anywhere over here that does any pre-packed stuff like the UK. My oh was worried about the diet, especially the bones, but even he has to admit that it seems to be working already-he didn't say it, but I think he's shocked about Alpha's poo being proper-I think he was hoping that I'd be proven wrong when I said her diarrhoea would improve on the diet-guess he still doesn't realise one thing-I'M ALWAYS RIGHT!!! Lol


----------



## SlingDash

We had wet poohs for the first couple of days, before they turned into tiny, yellow 'dog eggs' that were so easy to clean up.

We wish we could persevere with the raw, meaty bones diet, but are just not comfortable with our Labs swallowing huge lumps of splintered bone.

Bone DOES splinter whether it is raw or cooked, and this has totally put us off this diet.


----------



## katiefranke

LouJ69 said:


> My oh was worried about the diet, especially the bones, but even he has to admit that it seems to be working already-he didn't say it, but I think he's shocked about Alpha's poo being proper-I think he was hoping that I'd be proven wrong when I said her diarrhoea would improve on the diet-guess he still doesn't realise one thing-I'M ALWAYS RIGHT!!! Lol


Brilliant!! :thumbup: It sounds like you guys are doing really well...so pleased it all seems to be going ok 

Good news about finding some suppliers too...I am always on the lookout even now! lol

I get quite excited when I find a good supplier!!  sad isnt it


----------



## Sam1309

bears stools very very very soft tonight so reading your post has put me at ease, i shall monitor it for the next few days and if it doesn't improve i'll try a different meat


----------



## LouJ69

Well, it seems to me that the loose stools seem to be like a kind of a detoxification with them-it's just their bodies getting used to the new food in their system. I wouldn't worry about it too much just yet. Mine are having lovely poos now-before I could have thrown it at a wall & it would have splattered like a cow pat-now it almost bounces!lol Katie-I'm exactly the same when it comes to finding suppliers-when the woman told me they did dog mince, I was shocked-I couldn't believe it! Looks like I'm just as sad as you so! I'm just so happy about the dogs doing well on the diet, especially Alpha. So far, so good. They've had beef, liver, tripe & chicken since They've started & it's been fine. Thanx again Katie for all your help & advice-but don't relax just yet-I'm sure I'll have more questions for you soon!lol


----------



## Blobbet

Mine don't seem to like the fish and egg anymore lol,
first time they both cleaned the bowls right out ,
second time they ate about half then started picking at it and left a small bit,
third time Tammy ate about a third and Charlie didn't touch hers at all 

So what i did was blend up the egg with shell and the fish into really disgusting pulp lol and then put it into an ice cube tray, and give them each a cube a day , they still get the same amount of fish and egg a week just broken up over the days  
Hopefully it's still ok like that , might try some different methods in future like mixing the egg with tripe and giving the fish seperately in whole pieces or whatever , but don't have any tripe at the moment


----------



## princesssaskia

Blobbet said:


> So what i did was blend up the egg with shell and the fish into really disgusting pulp lol and then put it into an ice cube tray, and give them each a cube a day , they still get the same amount of fish and egg a week just broken up over the days
> Hopefully it's still ok like that , might try some different methods in future like mixing the egg with tripe and giving the fish seperately in whole pieces or whatever , but don't have any tripe at the moment


This is exactly what I mean about tailoring your diet to the individual dog - not just as far as their size and activity levels go, but what they like to eat or how they like to eat it. Yes it takes a bit of effort sometimes but humans are the same, so why should dogs be treated with any less respect! 2 of my guys have funny 'habits' or particular foods they like or loathe or have to have foods cut up or prepared in certain ways - all except Crystal the bull terrier bin, who just opens her big fat sharky mouth and stuffs anything in and swallows (although in her case i have to be careful she doesnt choke on bones, as she doesnt chew if bits are too small, she just assumes if she can get it in her mouth she can swallow it!!!!! :lol

Oh yeah and you not alone, I get pathetically excited when I source a new supplier, I spend ages telling people who dont really give a fig all about it!!!


----------



## princesssaskia

SlingDash said:


> We wish we could persevere with the raw, meaty bones diet, but are just not comfortable with our Labs swallowing huge lumps of splintered bone.
> 
> Bone DOES splinter whether it is raw or cooked, and this has totally put us off this diet.


SlingDash, I have followed your posts throughout this thread as I feel you represent all those people who love their dogs, love the idea of raw and want to do right by them but are put off by the fear of hurting them. I think its such a sad reflection on our 'civilised' society as a whole that despite RAW being the most natural way for a dog to eat we have been brainwashed into feeding commercial food so much so that the whole concept of reverting to RAW is alien and threatening. Please dont think I dont appreciate your concerns, I do, It took me a while to make the transition from feeding part raw to including the dreaded bones - but as Katie said its vital for the calcium-phosphorus ratio. I know some people do feed crushed up egg shells or bonemeal on place of bones but although this address the chemical balance its worth noting that dogs stomach acid is 7 times stronger than ours, they need to swallow chunks of bone/fur etc to give that acid something to work on otherwise, over time, it can break down the stomach lining. Personally I believe that this is one of the reasons we have seen a growth in stomach cancers and ulcers in dogs in recent years

A few people on this thread have said that when they first started feeding bones they saw shards in their dogs poo, but these do disappear over time - its like the system needs a kick start to begin breaking it down properly, but its great when it happens as it means things are working as they should! Why dont you just start with really small bits of bone. I fed small bones from chicken carcasses to begin with - and I know some might freak when i say this - but I have fed these little bones raw and cooked with no harm at all to my dogs. Get a pair of good scissors or shears and cut the bone into really small pieces, then once they are digesting them fine you can up the size of the bone pieces. Remember, dogs systems are designed to break bone down!


----------



## sky's mum

Hi again,

I gave Sky a taster of chicken thigh yesterday and she loved it!

Quick question, how long do youhave to freeze chicken to ensure that all the nasties are dead?


----------



## LouJ69

As far as I know, chicken doesn't have to be frozen first-I think it's only pork that needs to be frozen-I could be wrong, but I've been giving my 2 fresh chicken thighs & they've been fine so far. X


----------



## Blobbet

sky's mum said:


> Hi again,
> 
> I gave Sky a taster of chicken thigh yesterday and she loved it!
> 
> Quick question, how long do youhave to freeze chicken to ensure that all the nasties are dead?


I think most things should be frozen for about 48 hours before feeding, 
Although when i gave mine their first ever piece of chicken breast i gave it fresh from the shop as i had ran out of their normal food so it was that or nothing lol  and then the second day they had chicken that was only frozen for 24 hours and they was fine. 
Now i just make sure i get the new food a few days before the old runs out 
As far as i know , pork and wild game should be frozen for longer (about 3 weeks) possibly beef too (???)


----------



## SlingDash

princesssaskia said:


> SlingDash, I have followed your posts throughout this thread as I feel you represent all those people who love their dogs, love the idea of raw and want to do right by them but are put off by the fear of hurting them. I think its such a sad reflection on our 'civilised' society as a whole that despite RAW being the most natural way for a dog to eat we have been brainwashed into feeding commercial food so much so that the whole concept of reverting to RAW is alien and threatening. Please dont think I dont appreciate your concerns, I do, It took me a while to make the transition from feeding part raw to including the dreaded bones - but as Katie said its vital for the calcium-phosphorus ratio. I know some people do feed crushed up egg shells or bonemeal on place of bones but although this address the chemical balance its worth noting that dogs stomach acid is 7 times stronger than ours, they need to swallow chunks of bone/fur etc to give that acid something to work on otherwise, over time, it can break down the stomach lining. Personally I believe that this is one of the reasons we have seen a growth in stomach cancers and ulcers in dogs in recent years
> 
> A few people on this thread have said that when they first started feeding bones they saw shards in their dogs poo, but these do disappear over time - its like the system needs a kick start to begin breaking it down properly, but its great when it happens as it means things are working as they should! Why dont you just start with really small bits of bone. I fed small bones from chicken carcasses to begin with - and I know some might freak when i say this - but I have fed these little bones raw and cooked with no harm at all to my dogs. Get a pair of good scissors or shears and cut the bone into really small pieces, then once they are digesting them fine you can up the size of the bone pieces. Remember, dogs systems are designed to break bone down!


Thanks so much for that reply, Princesssaskia. You've hit the nail on the head there with what you said about all the worrying!

We did feed 100% raw for severasl weeks and NEVER had a problem, but I've been looking at all sorts of forums, websites and YouTube videos since, and this put the willies up us again!

The last time we fed the young ones raw, we gave them a whole chicken thigh each, and they were swallowed virtually whole within a few seconds, and even then there were no problems.

It IS all to do with not wanting to hurt our beloved pack, and it's obviously a matter of trying to get over the worry of them swallowing large pieces of bone. Something I don't think we can overcome, unfortunately.


----------



## luvmydogs

If you give your dog portions that are too big for them to swallow whole (ie whole chickens, side of ribs etc) then they can't wolf them down.


----------



## katiefranke

Blobbet said:


> So what i did was blend up the egg with shell and the fish into really disgusting pulp lol and then put it into an ice cube tray, and give them each a cube a day


good idea  i do the same with mashed up egg often so that I can just add a small bit at a time... :thumbup:



sky's mum said:


> Quick question, how long do youhave to freeze chicken to ensure that all the nasties are dead?


I personally feed poultry from fresh - however, if I buy in bulk then I might freeze it.

it is more important for pork & game due to the potential parasites they can carry. 



luvmydogs said:


> If you give your dog portions that are too big for them to swallow whole (ie whole chickens, side of ribs etc) then they can't wolf them down.


thats what I find for sure and why I always recommend that the bigger the better! (I also hold onto one end of the item if I am ever worried they wont eat it well) :thumbsup:


----------



## Âüþãà

I feed only cooked meat. Cut into pieces.


----------



## Âüþãà

Varia: Rice,millet.


----------



## Âüþãà

Add eggs Once cooked porridge and Salts.


----------



## Âüþãà

Raw eggs without shells. 2 times a week is on a dog.Also, for a variety of giving cooked squid.










Purify, chopped.


----------



## Âüþãà

Cook and solim little


----------



## Âüþãà

The chicken can give entirely.
BUT removing tubular bones.










Or so pieces


----------



## sky's mum

Sky is having her first all raw day today. This morning she had a chicken thigh (bone removed) and 1 quarter of a chicken. She loved it all and didnt gulp the chicken quarter like I thought she would, instead she layed down and took her time and LOVED IT!

Quick question the chicken quarters weigh about 350g and the thighs 150g, will she be okay having 1 chicken quarter and thigh for breakfast and the same for dinner? or is that not enough bones?


----------



## katiefranke

sky's mum said:


> Sky is having her first all raw day today. This morning she had a chicken thigh (bone removed) and 1 quarter of a chicken. She loved it all and didnt gulp the chicken quarter like I thought she would, instead she layed down and took her time and LOVED IT!
> 
> Quick question the chicken quarters weigh about 350g and the thighs 150g, will she be okay having 1 chicken quarter and thigh for breakfast and the same for dinner? or is that not enough bones?


hi there, do the thighs contain bones? or are they filleted (so meat-only)? - it depends how you would like to feed, but I usually only give one boney meal a day, although you may want to be giving more at the beginning...

As the parts you mention are relatively meaty though it should be fine to start, but as you get further in, I would reduce the bone a bit and do one meal without bone a day and one with


----------



## sky's mum

katiefranke said:


> hi there, do the thighs contain bones? or are they filleted (so meat-only)? - it depends how you would like to feed, but I usually only give one boney meal a day, although you may want to be giving more at the beginning...
> 
> As the parts you mention are relatively meaty though it should be fine to start, but as you get further in, I would reduce the bone a bit and do one meal without bone a day and one with


I de-boned the thigh this morning, should I do the same this evening then?


----------



## sky's mum

Perhaps I would be best giving

2 boneless thighs for breakfast 200g - 300g total

and dinner

2 chicken quarters 700g total

Does this sound a better idea?


----------



## katiefranke

Âüþãà;1879685 said:


> I feed only cooked meat.


Hi Âüþãà, thanks for contributing to the thread - but apart from the eggs, are you saying you feed everything else cooked including the chicken?

This thread is called "Raw Feeding: everything you need to know!" - and as such is specifically about how to feed a raw diet to our pet carnivores.

Whilst some people do feed cooked meat along with the raw diet, it is as an occasional tit bit or leftovers from their meals, not as their pets' main diet...too much in the way of cooked meat is not nutritionally balanced at all and can lead to deficiencies and would not be encouraged.

Of course many people do cook for their dogs, but the addition of meaty bones, other items and supplements would also need to be considered to make sure the diet contains everything needed for health.

*Perhaps you could start another thread specifically on home-cooking, as I know this is a topic of interest for others on the forum?* But obviously for people that visit this thread they will be expecting to find information on raw feeding...

Thank you! :thumbup:
Katie

*PS: Just to reiterate to anyone new visiting the thread - NEVER FEED COOKED BONES!*


----------



## katiefranke

sky's mum said:


> Perhaps I would be best giving
> 
> 2 boneless thighs for breakfast 200g - 300g total
> 
> and dinner
> 
> 2 chicken quarters 700g total
> 
> Does this sound a better idea?


ah I see! right in that case if you have de-boned them, feel free to feed in whatever combination! :thumbup: it doesnt really matter whether you feed along with the boney meal or not...

if its easier, and it suits your dog, you could feed as above, or even

AM one quarter

PM one quarter + two de-boned thighs etc

---------

Definitely sounds the right kind of quantity bone - you dont need to add more unless you find she has loose poops! Then you might want to add a little more bone (so perhaps leave the bone in one of the thighs - but be careful how she eats this as it will be quite small for her). 

Be guided by her and how fast she adapts...if you find her poops are too dry and crumbly or she is straining, then this is too much bone and you would need to up the % of meat.


----------



## luvmydogs

I try to think about how much bone there would be in whole prey. I like to feed half a chicken at a time to my dogs. I never debone food but I'm always trying to imagine whether they have got close to whole prey throughout the week.


----------



## sky's mum

katiefranke said:


> ah I see! right in that case if you have de-boned them, feel free to feed in whatever combination! :thumbup: it doesnt really matter whether you feed along with the boney meal or not...
> 
> if its easier, and it suits your dog, you could feed as above, or even
> 
> AM one quarter
> 
> PM one quarter + two de-boned thighs etc
> 
> ---------
> 
> Definitely sounds the right kind of quantity bone - you dont need to add more unless you find she has loose poops! Then you might want to add a little more bone (so perhaps leave the bone in one of the thighs - but be careful how she eats this as it will be quite small for her).


Thanks for the reply

I will de-bone the thighs for now, when I gave her the de-boned thigh this morning she just inhaled it, so I think its a good idea to debone the small bits.

She loved the quarters and chewed them lovely :thumbup:

Shes already done one poop today and its lovely and dry, no smell but there was some small bone pieces. However, I understand this is normal and will disappear overtime.


----------



## katiefranke

luvmydogs said:


> I try to think about how much bone there would be in whole prey. I like to feed half a chicken at a time to my dogs. I never debone food but I'm always trying to imagine whether they have got close to whole prey throughout the week.


I dont debone food either, but then i do feed meat only meals - as if we are going on whole prey, sometimes it would be something big like a lamb, but not all the bones would be consumed and so a lot more meat would be eaten.

Also true whole prey would be incl skin/fur etc and so the actual % of bone to the rest of the animal would decrease...hence why I try and feed boney meals around 50% of the time and meaty meals, heart, tripe, eggs, fish, liver/kidney etc for the other 50 %. 

*Sky's mum *- yep I guessed at the inhaling of such a small piece!!! lol - in time you would prob feed something else instead, but prob best for now with the little pieces!

And yep as you rightly said, the bone tends to be there for a week or so and then disappears as their digestive system rights itself. Once the acid level is at the right ph, then it will properly dissolve the bone and you wont see the shards any more  just make sure the poops arent TOO dry or any straining is going on.

Thats actually the best way to monitor whether you are feeding right - just check their poops!!  nice!!


----------



## luvmydogs

katiefranke said:


> I dont debone food either, but then i do feed meat only meals - as if we are going on whole prey, sometimes it would be something big like a lamb, but not all the bones would be consumed and so a lot more meat would be eaten.
> 
> Also true whole prey would be incl skin/fur etc and so the actual % of bone to the rest of the animal would decrease...hence why I try and feed boney meals around 50% of the time and meaty meals, heart, tripe, eggs, fish, liver/kidney etc for the other 50 %.
> 
> *Sky's mum *- yep I guessed at the inhaling of such a small piece!!! lol - in time you would prob feed something else instead, but prob best for now with the little pieces!
> 
> And yep as you rightly said, the bone tends to be there for a week or so and then disappears as their digestive system rights itself. Once the acid level is at the right ph, then it will properly dissolve the bone and you wont see the shards any more  just make sure the poops arent TOO dry or any straining is going on.
> 
> Thats actually the best way to monitor whether you are feeding right - just check their poops!!  nice!!


Agreed! And you do become a total poo watcher when you feed raw LOL!! :laugh:


----------



## katiefranke

luvmydogs said:


> Agreed! And you do become a total poo watcher when you feed raw LOL!! :laugh:


he he, I know, terrible isn't it?!!


----------



## LouJ69

luvmydogs said:


> Agreed! And you do become a total poo watcher when you feed raw LOL!! :laugh:


Lol, I've been a poo watcher since I got Alpha-she has a sensitive stomach so any time she poo'd, I was checking it to see if it was runny or not! Even at night, I had a little torch by the back door so I could run out & check it!:scared: Since I started the Raw diet, her poo has been so much better-I find I'm not worrying about it as much anymore!

I placed my first bulk order with the meat wholesalers today-I ordered 3 large bags of dog mince, 1 kilo of lamb hearts, 10 chicken fillets and 2lbs of liver.  They'll also throw in some bones for me too! Lol, I even got a loyalty card from them the other day-how sad is that?! :thumbup:
The chicken legs, I get from Dunnes Stores in a packet for only 2.69, so I'll get them there.
Bloody dogs are better fed then I am!!! :lol:


----------



## sky's mum

Just a quick report for you all.

Sky's second day of raw and she is doing great:

Shes alert at meal times
Shes taking her time eating the larger chicken quarters
Her toilets are soild, they dont smell
She used to be tempted to eat the poo, but thats stopped :thumbup:
She's much more relaxed

Im impressed :thumbup:


----------



## luvmydogs

Brilliant :thumbup:


----------



## sky's mum

luvmydogs said:


> Brilliant :thumbup:


Its fantastic, especially the poo eating bit !

Do you think that she is ready for me to introduce a second protein next week? or should I leave it as chicken for one more week?


----------



## luvmydogs

sky's mum said:


> Its fantastic, especially the poo eating bit !


Just shows how much undigested stuff was coming out the other end before eh?



sky's mum said:


> Do you think that she is ready for me to introduce a second protein next week? or should I leave it as chicken for one more week?


Personally I think she would have shown any problems with your first protein source straight away, so I would introduce another.


----------



## MarKalAm

Loving how well everyone is doing here - Great work!! :thumbsup:

The ones who won't eat lung are you feeding economy minces?


----------



## sky's mum

luvmydogs said:


> Just shows how much undigested stuff was coming out the other end before eh?
> 
> Personally I think she would have shown any problems with your first protein source straight away, so I would introduce another.


Okay will do.

Do you use any suppliers online? I was looking at the dog food company but I cant see any meat pieces on their product list?


----------



## luvmydogs

sky's mum said:


> Okay will do.
> 
> Do you use any suppliers online? I was looking at the dog food company but I cant see any meat pieces on their product list?


I use these: Durham Animal Feeds :: DAF Petfood - Durham Animal Feeds it depends what part of the country you are in.


----------



## sky's mum

luvmydogs said:


> I use these: Durham Animal Feeds :: DAF Petfood - Durham Animal Feeds it depends what part of the country you are in.


I live in Bedfordshire, sadly they dont deliver down this way :frown:


----------



## luvmydogs

Maybe Landywoods? Landywood Pet Foods : Home


----------



## MarKalAm

luvmydogs said:


> Maybe Landywoods? Landywood Pet Foods : Home


Don't do it!!!! lol TDFC are so much better"


----------



## sky's mum

MarKalAm said:


> Don't do it!!!! lol TDFC are so much better"


Do they do meat chunks then? I cant see any on their product list.


----------



## MarKalAm

sky's mum said:


> Do they do meat chunks then? I cant see any on their product list.


Not on the list no, but ask Scott and see what he can do.
Landys don't, unless they have changed their list?


----------



## SlingDash

PRIZE CHOICE also do meat chunks and all sorts of other frozen meats/offal.

Not sure how their prices compare though:
*http://www.prizechoice.co.uk/*


----------



## katiefranke

sky's mum said:


> Do they do meat chunks then? I cant see any on their product list.


You can get the heart in chunks/diced if you ask for it that way. But the main 'whole' things they do are the meaty bones, which cant be cut up.

You could ask them though - they might be able to do something...

Although I have been asking for some stuff myself and havent heard all week after a couple of messages, so it might take a little while for a response.

With all of us placing orders from here he is probably run off his feet suddenly!!


----------



## Blobbet

Such a shame to say this but i think i have to change Tammy's and Charlie's raw diet to something else...
After feeding Tammy her dinner tonight i had a very horrible scare, we thought it was bloat as she showed alot of the symptoms :frown:
It was just chicken breast and i even held it but she managed to still pull away some large chunks and there was a bit of hard grisly boney bit but not like proper piece of bone,she ate it really quickly even though i was trying to hold it and slow her down! and then literally straight after she started acting very strange...
pacing funny, kept walking around really strangely and like she was tense, coughing and couldn't even get up the little step at the back door just put her front legs up and then wouldn't move , when i pressed her stomach she kept making little whiny noises and looked in a lot of pain, i then carried her upstairs and placed her on the bed and she just flopped down and looked really uncomfortable, then i realised her belly looked HUUUGE and it felt really hard ! so i immediately googled bloat symptoms and probly most of the symptoms it said she had shown .
Literally flew out the house with her and we drove to the vet , rang them on the way to let them know we was comming.
Well on a slightly less worrying note...
Vet gave her thorough checking over and we just explained what happened etc and he said he didn't think it was bloat , she had perked up a bit by the time we got there , but he checked her temp and heart rate, listened to her stomach all over and felt all around and stuff and said he reckons she ate too fast or too larger pieces but should be ok 
Gave us the emergency number and said to keep an eye on her over night, which i will be (like a hawk!!)
By the time we got home she seemed much better , stomach is still a bit bloated but she was running around all happy when we got back in the door!

But that is now TWO very serious nasty things that have happened to Tammy while eating her dinner... (my previous post about having a seizure from choking on a lump of flesh) And i think i would be a fool to ignore those incidents , she is the most important thing to me in the world and it's my responsabilty that what she eats is safe and good for her ... i still believe raw feeding is the best way to feed a dog but Tammy just cannot cope with the whole pieces , even if i hold onto it and help her.
Just to mention aswell, even Charlie has given me a few scares , with choking and gagging while eating etc and with whats happened to Tammy i feel it's only a matter of time before something happens with Charlie too 

I am not going to completely give up on raw just yet, as i know many people feed their dogs on raw minces etc and cutting up meaty chunks into small pieces, which i feel would be better suited to my dogs.
They could still be fed all the heart/tripe/liver/kidney and then instead of giving a whole chicken thigh, simply strip all the meat off the bone and cut it all up , and give minces with bone in , and still have their fish and egg too, maybe give a tougher bone like a lamb one or something that they can chew on to clean the teeth but not actually eat it? 
I'm sure there must be a way, right now i'm panicking cos i don't really have much that i can give them instead... just cut up all the meat off the chicken thighs they have or something for now...


Terribly sorry for the MASSIVE post  had so much to say and get off my chest , still feel so shaky and emotional after the whole bloat scare thing


----------



## hobbs2004

Blobbet, so sorry to hear about your rather traumatic events. You need to know what is best for your dogs. That is the beauty of raw feeding, you can adjust it to your animals. 

So, don't feel bad about feeding minces. Give yourself some breathing space. Then perhaps, if you wanted, you could start introducing smaller chunks and over time build up the size. If that is what you would like to do. That way at least they would still get some of the dental benefits of a raw diet, not just the nutritional benefits imo. 

All the best!


----------



## katiefranke

Just got in from agility - oh no  - sorry to hear that, but glad to hear it wasnt bloat!!

Sounds like she does gobble her food then...hobbs put it very well above - do what you feel is right. As we said all the way through the thread, thats what a raw diet is all about, tailoring to your dogs and their needs. 

You know your dogs best and you know what they are like etc - plus if you are panicky/nervous when they are eating it wont be good for them either.

So give the minces a go - and no need to worry about what you have already got - just chop it up for now if thats what you want to do.

Keep us posted


----------



## luvmydogs

Sorry to hear about your dog. I found that if I hold one end of the food, some dogs try to eat it more quickly as they fear you are taking it. Have you tried her on really big (ie whole chickens) pieces, without you holding them?


----------



## Sam1309

very very sorry to hear what happened to your dog, but at least it wasn't bloat.

i think in your situation i would try the minces and give other bones for recreational use to clean their teeth.

on another note, well done for acting so quickly, if it was Bloat then you would have saved you pups life with your lightening fast response


----------



## MarKalAm

Hmm would it be possible to give very big meats that he had to chew bits off? Like wise with bones? Mine couldn't gulp because of this (Or perhaps I've just never seen a real 'gulper', I don't know).

Either way glad he is ok and relieved it wasn't bloat, that scares the hell out of me!


----------



## SlingDash

Thats' awful, Bobbet. It's exactly why we've given up on feeding bones, and are going back to high quality moist pouches, Orijen kibble and plenty of fresh boneless meat and offal. We cut the meat off all the bones, and proces things like kidneys and livers in the food blender first. An Ox heart from the butcher is very cheap, and can be cut up into lovely looking, juicy chunks of lean meat that ours love.

The diet you're now proposing (and that we, too, are now feeding) is a half-way house between a pure kibble diet and a full raw diet, and we're sticking with it after reading several scare stories such as this.



> Hmm would it be possible to give very big meats that he had to chew bits off? Like wise with bones? Mine couldn't gulp because of this (Or perhaps I've just never seen a real 'gulper', I don't know).


Our Labs are terrible gulpers (aren't ALL Labs! ). When we gave up on feeding large chunks of meaty bones, we tried to feed large lumps of meat instead. Ours still tried to wolf these down, and our big lad got a lump stuck, but managed to cough it back up again.

Is the gulping you experience with your dog a problem then? In almost thirty years of dog ownership, ALL our dogs have gulped their food, and not once have I experienced any choking or what Bobbet has described when feeding minces, kibble, offals or pouches.


----------



## Blobbet

Hey all,

Glad to say Tammy seems much better today and back to her old self 
She's not eaten anything yet other than a couple of treats and some butternut squash lol 

I went up to [email protected] earlier and got some prize choice bits (not the greatest stuff i know but had to make do ) got 4kg of minced tripe , 2kg minced chicken and 2 400g lamb blocks + 2 400g rabbit blocks , which is actually over a months worth of food for them lol ! (still got loads of chicken wings/thighs, bits of lamb, and a load of pork ribs aswell !)
Tonight they shall have the meat off of chicken thighs all cut up small and some liver.
I think i'll also try feeding them seperately to see if it helps stop them trying to eat so fast!

Poor little Tammy just can't handle big pieces  she really struggles to chew bits off, no matter how big or small the piece lol
I introduced everything so slowly and started with little chunks and built up to large pieces, and then pieces with bone in , and didn't hold the pieces at the start , but that's what then lead to her choking horribly on a lump of meat she couldn't chew and had a seizure 
Maybe it's to do with her starting so late in life or something , her back teeth are so tiny and a bit worn down too so it must be difficult to try and chew up some thick, stringy, slippery, squelchy thing 
she sometimes would just sit and stare at me like she's saying ' help me get something off this stupid lump' lol

Well anyway , i'm sure there is a way that i can feed raw that suits them.
Just can't take that risk anymore, after having 2 awful , very upsetting things happen it's just not worth it  and if it means they get a slightly worse version of raw , but at least can enjoy their food and be safe eating it then that's what i feel should be done 
I mean... it's better than going back to dry food and the likes  :lol:

Not really sure what i will do about bones , as it's not really bones they have a problem with , so perhaps i could strip the meat off and cut that up , let them eat that and then they could eat the bone on it's own afterwards??

Think i'll just wait and see how tonights dinner goes lol actually dreading it a bit now !


----------



## MarKalAm

SlingDash said:


> Is the gulping you experience with your dog a problem then? In almost thirty years of dog ownership, ALL our dogs have gulped their food, and not once have I experienced any choking or what Bobbet has described when feeding minces, kibble, offals or pouches.


No, the only thing they ever gulped was tinned wet. Now with the bones being large (bigger than their head) they have to chew bits off and can't gulp them down. And the large chunks of meat need to be chewed too.

But like I said they don't seem to be gulpy dogs as I could chuck them a chicken wing and they'll chew it nicely. The thing is 2 have been fed this way from a few months old (now 6) and the other weaned onto raw, so I suppose they've grown up with it.

I never had one chock or anything like that.


----------



## katiefranke

Maggie is a gulper! 

She used to inhale her kibble and will do the same with the raw given half the chance...

However, I just hold it if Im worried.

But to be honest, I feed a lot of large things that she just cant gulp.

I'd like to see her get a whole half a chicken down her throat without crunching it up!!! 

The only time she has ever choked/gagged is with lumps of meat when they are cut into too small a bit.

When I first started them on raw I chopped things up into little pieces - thinking it was a good thing to transition her. However, I only did this for about a day, as she inhaled this too and sucked it down the wrong way and was gagging for what seemed like 10 minutes!!!

The only other time was again on a piece of meat - she tried to swallow a bit that was too big, sounded a bit odd going down...but she sicked it back up and then ate it properly, chomping it into smaller pieces before swallowing!!! lol

Whilst it is scary, it is actually perfectly normal for raw fed dogs to bring stuff back up if it is too big for them...manky, but normal - dogs are disgusting!


However, in blobbets case, it could potentially be that tammy hasnt built up the strength of jaw to tear the meat into suitable chunks as yet or has difficulty with her teeth etc...whatever the reason, small bits are probably best for now as blobbet is comfortable with that (lol, it feels odd calling you 'blobbet'!! )


----------



## delightfuldior

I would love to feed my two raw but I'm a bit slow and rubbish at maths and still dont get what I would buy and serve 

I just cant seem to put daily meals together, plus I have


> a very small freezer!


----------



## EBT

katiefranke said:


> The only other time was again on a piece of meat - she tried to swallow a bit that was too big, sounded a bit odd going down...but she sicked it back up and then ate it properly, chomping it into smaller pieces before swallowing!!! lol
> 
> Whilst it is scary, it is actually perfectly normal for raw fed dogs to bring stuff back up if it is too big for them...manky, but normal - dogs are disgusting!


Mine do this all the time. Not at every meal but quite often. They just bring it back up and then eat it again. Looks disgusting but they don't care!


----------



## Jasper's Bloke

I am starting to see a problem since changing to raw. Jasper has started to lick at the top of his front legs to the point where he is stripping the fur away. He did this on his right leg during the first week, but I found a small scratch (probably from running through brambles) next to the patch that had scabbed over and thought he had been licking at that, but today he has started on the other leg and has already thinned the hair out.

On certain foods he used to occasionally get doggy dandruff and used to scratch like any other dog, but the raw seemed to have cleared all that up and he barely scratches at all. His coat has always been bright and very shiny. Obviously there is something there irritating him, I will check his harness but its not really in the right place, so I am starting to think I am giving him something that doesn't agree with his skin. The only thing different in his diet this week has been fresh liver, he has had about 1/2 lb, spread out over the week, the rest of it has been his usual mix of chicken joints, tripe mince, beef mince and a couple of rmb (beef/lamb ribs).

A combination of my supplier running out of (very cheap) tripe for the next two weeks and a (very expensive) broken clutch cable means I might have to switch back to my left over supply of Skinners. Disappointed.


----------



## SlingDash

I read that liver should only be fed very sparingly and, at most, once a week.

Is half a pound a lot? I don't operate in Lbs and Ounces, unfortunately, but it sounds like it might be a little too much?

Another piece of information I came across is that beef isn't particularly good for dogs. I don't think it does any actual harm, but it's apparently lacking in nutrients.

To start with, perhaps cut out the beef and stop the liver for a couple of weeks?

I'm sure Katie will be here soon to offer some advice, as I'm by no means an expert on raw feeding - having wimped-out after a month!


----------



## Jasper's Bloke

The beef is about 1/2lb (200gish) a week so doubt its that and although the liver was my prime suspect, 200g in a week is really not that much. General recommendation for offal is 10% of weekly diet and he gets about 5/6kg per week. It might just be a dodgy batch, but the rest is going in the bin anyway.


----------



## katiefranke

hiya Jasper's bloke - where did the liver come from - what supplier? and was it whole/sliced/minced? and what animal?

Putting that aside, I just want to pose a quick question - what would you do if you were feeding kibble? would you automatically think it was the food? I think we all have a tendency to immediately think anything weird is the raw food when we first start out ...I have to admit, I was just as guilty of that too! But a proper food allergy in dogs is actually quite rare (although it definitely does happen as maggie proves) - and in fact it may be completely unrelated...

So if we look at all the options from the things you have mentioned, here are some of my thoughts which you might want to run through to try and narrow it down:

*SKIN INFECTION:* As he had a cut, are you sure there was no bacterial skin infection which has got worse and more irritating - are there any pimples or bumps under the skin? Any redness or funny smell to the patch? OR, has the licking of the other cut etc caused a nice damp environment for bacteria/fungal infection? I know it sounds manky, but have a look and a think if its any of these things first as these would need treating before thinking about anything else and are sometimes not that obvious.

*PARASITES:* So along with the above, check him over for any evidence of fleas/mites/ticks/bites etc. Harvest mites have been a beast lately (you can see them in between the toes usually showing up as bright orange specks)...this can cause the thinning and itching...and just a couple of bites can cause intense irritation for a long time. Maggie got bitten while we were out walking - i saw these midgey things flying around her and she was mega itchy for about 2 weeks until they scabbed and then healed...

*DETOX:* it could actually be detoxing. Maggie went through an initial patch in the first couple of months of exaccerbating her skin issues like she was detoxing all the crap...and then it all cleared up...dont know if it is something similar? Apparently this is quite common and can happen for different lengths of time depending on how long the dog has been on raw...

If you can rule the first two of these out, then go onto considering allergies...

It might be diet-related - it might not though...its always difficult with allergies.

*PROTEIN:* with the food, it could be the protein he is reacting to potentially - so maybe chicken or whatever - in fact often cheaper chicken is enhanced and can make them allergic. I can only feed maggie free-range or organic chicken or she gets itchy - must be something to do with what they feed the battery ones?

*MEAT SOURCE:* it could just be the source of the meat - where does the meat come from? how do they raise the animals? do they have any antibiotics/hormones etc added to their feed/is the meat enhanced with additives etc...

*OTHER ALLERGY: *it could be an allergy to something completely unrelated and it is just a coincidence - is he moulting? have you just put the heating on like we have indoors - a combination of both of these started maggie off - i had to do a manic house clean and try and keep the house cool while she is moulting. Or have you been walking anywhere different recently/any different crops/plants in your normal walking locations?

*COMBINATION OF ALLERGIES:* or, what is quite common with allergies is that there could be a very low level allergy to something in the diet and a low level allergy to, lets just say 'dust' - on their own no problem, in conjunction they combine to create a reaction.

The first thing to do if you really think it is food is to remove the new item - the liver. Was it ox/beef liver? Or lamb/pig etc? Whichever one you chose, you could try another type next time when you reintroduce. Remember liver should make up 5% of the diet - and then 5% other offal like kidney, pancreas etc.

The next thing to do would be to take a step backwards - so have you added anything else new even going back a couple of weeks, as it can take a little while for it to show up? If so, then remove this as well and maybe even just stick with one protein you know he is ok on for a time to see if it makes a difference...if it doesnt, then you know it isnt anything to do with the food.

Alongside all the above, you could bathe him in something really mild and natural so as not to cause any further irritation - I would highly recommend MalAcetic Otic which you can get from places like Viovet and VetUK online for not a lot of money. Its 100% natural and is also antibacterial/antifungal to help if there is any skin infection.

Hope that has been helpful - skin conditions are such a pain - been there this past year with mags  so if I can offer any more advice, just let me know...


----------



## Jasper's Bloke

An angel to the rescue as usual!

First the liver was lamb as he has had this before, but it was from a supplier I have never used before, a local market. If I were feeding kibble and I had made any recent changes then I would look to them as the cause, the only reason I suspect the raw food is because it is the only variable.

Skin Infection - the cut he had cleared up pretty quickly and it was about three weeks ago, now he is munching on the opposite leg. There is no sign of further injury or infection, no redness, lumps, bumps or marks. It is just the thinning fur where he is licking at it and it is in a very specific (about 3 square cm) area, would a skin infection not be more widespread?.

Parasites - Will have a better look in the light tomorrow but there was no sign when I examined him today.

These thoughts have given me another idea though, it may not be a bite or infection, but a sting from something he has run through in the under growth. He was jumping up and down in it this morning, never been affected by nettles and the like before but I suppose its a possibility. We also did a strange walk yesterday that we had never done before, so you could be on to something.

The detox is another possibility, although he has been fed pretty decent (Fish4Dogs) kibble for most of the last year.

He has been OK for the last few weeks primarily on chicken, so I might take him back to just that for a few days. I struggle to get supplies (can only buy about half a freezer draw full at a time) so switching to organic chicken is prohibitively expensive for me and the car going boing hasn't helped.

Plenty of food for thought to keep me going for a few days there, will keep you posted. Thanks Hun, you're a star!!!


----------



## katiefranke

I think you might have hit the nail on the head with a sting...the 3cm square area definitely sounds like something localised to that area rather than an infection or allergy which whilst it can be in a specific area would usually be a bit more widespread.

If you are worried about the liver though, just chuck it, even if it hasnt got anything to do with it...liver is only cheap so you dont want to chance it.

So have a check in the light, maybe put something soothing on the area if you can like sudocrem which works wonders for soothing itching.

If you do find it is a sting, and he has no health issues, you could give a piriton - the ones for humans - just for the next couple of days to reduce the itching and stop the biting. 1-2 a day depending on severity for his size. Make sure it is NOT piriteze.

Good luck :thumbup:


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## Jasper's Bloke

Thanks again KF, will try and get a picture of it up tomorrow if I can.


----------



## Jasper's Bloke

I think I've nailed it!

Was trying to get a pic, without success thanks to Mr wriggly bottom, and now that there is a bit less hair there I have spotted a couple of little cuts, two in the affected area and one on the inside of his back leg too. They look suspiciously like bramble scratches to me and we did walk in the woods today. They are really fine and I can only see them now because they seem to have scabbed over.

Damn dog once got a huge cut on his back from a barbed wire fence that needed 13 stitches and never blinked an eye, now he has a couple of scratches and he's going crazy. Typical!

Will post a thread for further advice, thanks again sweetie!!


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## katiefranke

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Damn dog once got a huge cut on his back from a barbed wire fence that needed 13 stitches and never blinked an eye, now he has a couple of scratches and he's going crazy. Typical!


At least you have found out what it is now!!!!  Blimin dogs, like you said - typical !

Sudocrem is great as it heals the cuts nicely and stops itching.

Its probably itchy as it is at that scabby healing stage and they tend to get irritating before the scab comes off!


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## LouJ69

Just thought I'd share a few pics of Monty & Alpha enjoying their raw diet!
Alpha enjoying a heart
Monty with a meaty bone
Monty with a heart
Alpha munching away on a nice meaty bone!


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## katiefranke

Great piccies :thumbup:


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## luvmydogs

I tried to post a video of my rescue Bullmastiff having her first raw meal but I don't think it has worked


----------



## luvmydogs

Here we go, as you can see I feed big chunks:

and she loved every bit of it. She had been fed on absolute crap all her life, hence she's skinny on this video. She's not skinny now


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## SlingDash

Did she eat that entire rib cage? It's not clear from the photograph...


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## luvmydogs

They are videos.  She ate all I gave her, which was just a bit bigger than her head I guess.

ETA: you can see it best on the first video.


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## SlingDash

Ooh yes! I've just noticed you can click them!

Off to have a look now...


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## katiefranke

cool! looks like she enjoyed that.

will try and get some of maggie 

slingdash thats the kind of size we feed maggie where possible - the bigger sizes like this make it much easier for them to eat safely :thumbup:

the rule they always say is that if possible feed in pieces that are bigger than their head!!!


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## Sam1309

katiefranke said:


> the rule they always say is that if possible feed in pieces that are bigger than their head!!!


althought i totally agree with you here the prob i find is that doing this tends to lead out of the daily allowance...

bear is a 6month old BC at nearly 20kg, how much should he eat a day?


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## Nicky10

He should be eating 2-3% of his adult body weight. You can give them portions bigger than what they should have and take it up when they've finished then give it the next meal


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## luvmydogs

Once a dog is fully grown, for inhalers you could try the gorge and fast method. This ensures the dog only gets massive portions all at once (so can't inhale) then fasts for a day.


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## katiefranke

Sam1309 said:


> althought i totally agree with you here the prob i find is that doing this tends to lead out of the daily allowance...
> 
> bear is a 6month old BC at nearly 20kg, how much should he eat a day?


wow, 20kg at 6 months, he is going to be a big boy!!!! 

assuming the average large male BC is usually around 25kg max, 2-3% of this would be somewhere between 500-750g per day.

as he is only 6 months and still growing, I would be tempted to feed him the higher end of the % so thats around 750g a day!! So you would def be able to feed something big for that.

Obviously so far you would be wanting to feed 3 meals a day, but now he i s 6 months you can make this 2 and you could do it so one of the meals is something small like some chunked tripe & an egg for instance and the other meal is the large thing...

Personally I feed a mix as I know what maggie will eat nicely.

So generally her boney meals are a chicken quarter, a half a rabbit or a slab of 4 lamb/pork ribs joined. All of these items are big enough for her to crunch up nicely. But sometimes I might feed something really big and end up skipping one meal the next day etc...

But for example, with a bigger dog like say a lab, I would imagine something the size of a half a chicken would be more suitable, especially for a gulper!

It just depends on the dog - some dont have any problems eating small things nicely...


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## Sam1309

he has been on 2 meals since he was 4 months, his choice not mine!

he's currenlt getting about 700g a day but not putting on any weight so i may consider upping his food or a week and see how we fair


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## Blobbet

Hey guys, just thought i'd give a lil update 

Things are going much better so far 
I've been cutting up their dinners into small pieces every day, and giving mixtures like one day cut up chicken thigh meat, next day some tripe mince with bits of liver, chopped up lamb meat , chicken mince with kidney etc etc
Just mixtures of things really trying to give something different every day  they had some rabbit too which they seemed to enjoy.

With the chicken thighs/wings/lamb bits i've been cutting all the meat off into small pieces and feeding that , then afterwards i hold the bone in my hand and let them eat that, which they seem to be doing ok with, so they still get to crunch up the bones  
They eat their dinner much better now, no choking and scary things going on lol! 
Also weirdly, both of their poos actually seem better now with this method lol

They get their pulped up fish and egg ice cube every morning too which they love! hehe so weird that they didn't like it fresh but like it frozen 

I just had to mention too , both of their breath has improved so much !! 
When they yawned before you could literally smell it from right across the room 
And now i honestly never smell any bad breath even when they yawn or pant right near my face lol :thumbup:


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## katiefranke

Thats great news blobbet!! :thumbup::thumbup: so glad to hear you have found a version that works for you and your doggies


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## delightfuldior

I am determined to get my head around this feeding raw business and I am going to introduce it ove the next couple of weeks then go the whole hog at the end of the month.

I was wondering if someone could help me further. This is a long thread and I have trawled through it seeing people's examples etc but none fit the bill for my two small doggies.

Joey is 7.9kg (round up to 8)
Gemma is 6.5kg

I'm assuming that I feed about 2.5% of their body weight PER DAY?? which would be 200g for Joey and 162g for Gemma??

I bought some chicken thighs today from Morrisons to see if they are OK with them and I got 3 huge ones for £1.58, if my maths are right this would equate to 3 portions for each dog? am I working it out right?? :confused1:

I read up somewhere on here to feed 80% meat and/or poultry, 10% bone and 10% offal PER DAY but I just seen that offal should only be 10% PER WEEK :confused1:

I would also like to feed veg too but not sure if this is a free allowance or its to be included in the daily feed allowance.

from confused.com


----------



## XxZoexX

Can't believe how interesting this thread is, I've been toying with the idea of slowly introducing some raw into Jacks diet and after Reading this am going to go and grab some chicken out of the freezer as he is only 15 weeks (3kgs at last months weigh in) would a leg be ok to start?
Also my brother works in a restaurant and has offered to fetch me off cuts of beef ect Anthony I should avoid tho I understand to stick to chicken first I want to get it in the freezer ready. 
One more quicky Is Duck ok to feed? 
Thanks for any help and for such an informative thread x


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## delightfuldior

I went and bought some chicken thighs from Morrisons, they were huge and only cost £1.58 for 3. I chopped one in halve and gave Joey the quarter and Gemma the leg and they just took it out of their bowls and dragged it into the hall :scared: My bf wasnt happy because of the hygene issue so we had a debate about what to do lol

I think they did this because they thought it was a treat/raw bone so the next day I cut the thigh into chunks with bone and popped it back in their bowls and they stayed there :thumbup: I was cringing watching them break the bone down, worried they would swallow it whole and choke but they seem to crunch away so all is good so far!

this morning they both did a poo and it was very light and dry and hard, Joey then did one a little runny; this is normal for him he has a dicky tummy...

I'm going to gradually introduce different meats and bones over the next 2 weeks then when pay day comes on the 28th I'm going to go to the butchers and Morrisons and stock up on what I need for another two weeks. I have used the plan on here and adjusted it for my two small lhasa's.

For the first few weeks I aint gunna worry about the cost as this is only a trial after that I will be able to find places where I can get cheaper stuff (I know another lhasa owner who works in my local butchers :001_cool.

I am going to try a raw egg with them today, should be fun, Gemma will think its a ball and play with it 

wish me luck!!


----------



## Nicky10

XxZoexX said:


> Can't believe how interesting this thread is, I've been toying with the idea of slowly introducing some raw into Jacks diet and after Reading this am going to go and grab some chicken out of the freezer as he is only 15 weeks (3kgs at last months weigh in) would a leg be ok to start?
> Also my brother works in a restaurant and has offered to fetch me off cuts of beef ect Anthony I should avoid tho I understand to stick to chicken first I want to get it in the freezer ready.
> One more quicky Is Duck ok to feed?
> Thanks for any help and for such an informative thread x


Pretty much just get a chicken leg and give it to him. Just raw is much better if possible. Beef is tricky to feed as none of the bones are really suitable for dogs but the meat is good. Dogs would eat red meat more naturally anyway. Introduce it after two weeks on chicken and see how he does just feed some chicken bones with it. Duck should be perfectly fine to feed



delightfuldior said:


> I went and bought some chicken thighs from Morrisons, they were huge and only cost £1.58 for 3. I chopped one in halve and gave Joey the quarter and Gemma the leg and they just took it out of their bowls and dragged it into the hall :scared: My bf wasnt happy because of the hygene issue so we had a debate about what to do lol
> 
> I think they did this because they thought it was a treat/raw bone so the next day I cut the thigh into chunks with bone and popped it back in their bowls and they stayed there :thumbup: I was cringing watching them break the bone down, worried they would swallow it whole and choke but they seem to crunch away so all is good so far!
> 
> this morning they both did a poo and it was very light and dry and hard, Joey then did one a little runny; this is normal for him he has a dicky tummy...
> 
> I'm going to gradually introduce different meats and bones over the next 2 weeks then when pay day comes on the 28th I'm going to go to the butchers and Morrisons and stock up on what I need for another two weeks. I have used the plan on here and adjusted it for my two small lhasa's.
> 
> For the first few weeks I aint gunna worry about the cost as this is only a trial after that I will be able to find places where I can get cheaper stuff (I know another lhasa owner who works in my local butchers :001_cool.
> 
> I am going to try a raw egg with them today, should be fun, Gemma will think its a ball and play with it
> 
> wish me luck!!


Glad they're both doing well. Feed them chicken for two weeks just to make sure they're used to it then start introducing more meats. Good luck with the eggs most dogs figure it out pretty quickly.

You feed the 80/10/10 ratio over time basically. Most people only give offal once or twice a week because it's such small quantities involved especially for such small dogs. Don't worry about getting the ratio right every meal it's just a rough estimate.


----------



## katiefranke

Hi guys, glad to see some more people trying raw out :thumbup:

In answer to your questions, I think nicky answered them all, but just a few other points...

*delightfuldior,* just remember there is no rush to get them eating all the different meats and variety and correct % from day one...I would always suggest sticking with one meat at a time for at least a week if not a little longer, until you see normal poops for a few days and then add a new meat and repeat the same process. There is no rush to get them on everything immediately and it is best to take your time and let them adjust slowly to everything so you dont end up back tracking 

You didnt mention the age or your dogs or whether they are under/over weight or just right?

2.5% of ideal adult weight per day is a good place to start. Young growing dogs or active dogs often need more...less active need less... If underweight feed more, if overweight feed less...its as simple as that really.

So you can break this down across the day into a couple of meals or one meal...however suits.

Go slow with introducing the egg - I would share one between them or even just a little bit each to begin and then some more a couple of days later. Remember to add everything new slowly.

And regarding the % as nicky said, its more about balance over time - think of it from a human point of view...we dont make sure we have exactly this and that % every day or even week...we just make up what we feel is a relatively balanced diet over time. Same goes for dogs...the % you mention are a rough guide but dont worry about meeting this daily - just roughly keep it in mind over a week.

With offal, some feed it a tiny bit a day...some just a chunk of something in one meal for the week - either way it is 10% fo their allowance. if you fed 10% of their daily food as offal, then over the week that would make the 10% of their weekly allowance anyway...

I would suggest taking offal introduction VERY slowly, as this is one of the biggest issues to introduce to a dog with a sensitive tum. Tiny weeny pieces to start the size of your fingernail...gradually build up over time. Usually it is recommended that you leave offal for the first month and once they are settled on a raw diet in general, then start introducing. As it is all about balance over time, it wont hurt to leave it for a bit.

*XxZoexX* - I feed beef to mine, but just the meat. the bones from beef tend to be too big and dense, so you run the risk of tooth fractures...the meat is great for them though if you can get it at a good price.

re the duck - yep absolutely fine. maggie gets duck probably once every couple of weeks. normally leg & thigh quarters. or sometimes i might cut up a whole duck for her so she gets some breast & wing too. for all wild duck/game etc I would suggest freezing to kill parasites for at least 48 hrs at -20C...but preferably longer...some people freeze for 3 weeks+...

Ask away with any other questions and keep us posted on how you get on!


----------



## delightfuldior

Am I OK cutting the chicken drumsticks/legs and thighs into chunks and giving them with the grisel in them?This is what I have been doing. The bone cuts well but one did splinter last night and I took it out.. was worried it would get stuck 

I'll stick to chicken for the next two/three weeks.. I have to be carefull with offal, it gives Joey terrible squits so I know to give this maybe once a week to start with. I'm lookig forward to the heart eventually, Morrisons sell it ever so cheap, as they do the liver and kidney. I have found a butchers that does meats 3 trays for a fiver, I can get pork, chicken and beef for that.. excellent!!!!

Joey is 2 in December and weighs 8kg, Gemma is 2 next month and weighs 6.5kg. Vet says Joey is slightly tubby but I can feel his spine and ribs and see his waist so highly doubt it. Gemma looks chunky but she is built differently and has more fluff lol. She used to be underweight and is a very fussy eater but wolfs this raw chicken down. she loves it! They get up to 1.5 hours a day excercise including play with me on the walks. They also run around playing with each other for about 20 mins.

I have a funny feeling the orijen is making my Joey hyper.. he is terrible at the moment and yesterday tested my patience.. followed me around everywhere, jumping up, staring. whining.. I have heard orijen can do this to some dogs... so I am looking forward to coming off it.

cheers :thumbup:


----------



## Sam1309

Bear is doing fab on raw, took him to the nutritionist at pets at home yesterday, she looked at his teeth FIVE times as she couldn't believe how good a condition they were in


----------



## Nicky10

delightfuldior said:


> Am I OK cutting the chicken drumsticks/legs and thighs into chunks and giving them with the grisel in them?This is what I have been doing. The bone cuts well but one did splinter last night and I took it out.. was worried it would get stuck
> 
> I'll stick to chicken for the next two/three weeks.. I have to be carefull with offal, it gives Joey terrible squits so I know to give this maybe once a week to start with. I'm lookig forward to the heart eventually, Morrisons sell it ever so cheap, as they do the liver and kidney. I have found a butchers that does meats 3 trays for a fiver, I can get pork, chicken and beef for that.. excellent!!!!
> 
> Joey is 2 in December and weighs 8kg, Gemma is 2 next month and weighs 6.5kg. Vet says Joey is slightly tubby but I can feel his spine and ribs and see his waist so highly doubt it. Gemma looks chunky but she is built differently and has more fluff lol. She used to be underweight and is a very fussy eater but wolfs this raw chicken down. she loves it! They get up to 1.5 hours a day excercise including play with me on the walks. They also run around playing with each other for about 20 mins.
> 
> I have a funny feeling the orijen is making my Joey hyper.. he is terrible at the moment and yesterday tested my patience.. followed me around everywhere, jumping up, staring. whining.. I have heard orijen can do this to some dogs... so I am looking forward to coming off it.
> 
> cheers :thumbup:


Don't bother with cutting them up. Just take away what they don't eat and give it next time. I'm glad they're doing well on raw it is a great thing to see.

The best advantage of raw food it's wonderful for their teeth.


----------



## blade100

hey there,just wondering are landywoods any good?
i have just recently put blade my german shepherd onto raw meat and bones.

got my butchers sorted for lamb bones and chicken carcasses which he loves!

but been buying the wings,tripe,beef mince,chicken meat,livers,kidneys,hearts,rabbit from the pet shop and its getting quite expensive so i found landywoods and have done a rough list of what i want for him.total of £30 plus £4 delivery.

he's not too keen on the slop (fruit & veg,natural yoghurt,eggs) but i blend up some mince meat in with it and he'll eat it then but he don't look amused!

is there anything else i need to be feeding him?
he gets liver cake as a treat.1 a day maybe 2.
does this seem ok?

thanks
amy


----------



## katiefranke

Nicky10 said:


> Don't bother with cutting them up. Just take away what they don't eat and give it next time.


wot she said 



Sam1309 said:


> Bear is doing fab on raw, took him to the nutritionist at pets at home yesterday, she looked at his teeth FIVE times as she couldn't believe how good a condition they were in


glad to hear it :thumbup: thats great news!



blade100 said:


> hey there,just wondering are landywoods any good?
> ...
> is there anything else i need to be feeding him?


Hi amy, I am not too keen on landywoods myself, lots of things with wrong orders, off food, missing items etc etc...however, many people use them with no probs. I think possibly it depends on where you live as to who delivers and how far it has to travel as to whether there are any problems...

It sounds like you are getting a nice variety - so if you are feeding all of this then there isnt anything else you HAVE to add...you might want to consider different meats if you came across something on offer etc once in a while...you could maybe add some oily fish a couple of times a week for the omega 3.

For a change if you feel adventurous you could try some different types of offal like pancreas and lungs? Butchers often stock pig lungs etc?

Other than that, I also feed lamb, venison, pheasant and duck when I can get it for a decent price.

Re the 'slop'...I dont feed any of this except eggs...and these I crack over a meal so she just eats it with her food no probs :thumbup: Personally I dont think they need fruit & veg as a % of their diet and prefer to just give something here and there if I have leftovers - they get everything they need from the meat, bones & offal.

Hope that helps!


----------



## delightfuldior

Nicky10 said:


> Don't bother with cutting them up. Just take away what they don't eat and give it next time. I'm glad they're doing well on raw it is a great thing to see.
> 
> The best advantage of raw food it's wonderful for their teeth.


the only thing is when I gave them the quarters and legs whole they wandered off into the middle of the kitchen and into the hall way to eat it, I dont want this for hygene reasons (we have a 3 year old that crawls about on the floor all the time and all floors are carpeted), I cant give them it to take outside because they could get into a fight (they do this all the time with marrow bones :eek6 and I aint willing to go outside and watch them eat to prevent a fight. 
They wont be leaving anything behind trust me lol.

Any suggestions? They only stay at their bowls if I chop the chicken into chunks and I did read on here somewhere that this can be done for smaller dogs.

Thanks


----------



## luvmydogs

You can train your dogs to go to certain areas. I use towels if feeding inside, my dogs know which towel they are supposed to be eating on. At first they try to walk about with the meat but I gently take them back to their allocated towel. They soon get the hang of it.


----------



## MarKalAm

katiefranke said:


> *XxZoexX* - I feed beef to mine, but just the meat. the bones from beef tend to be too big and dense, so you run the risk of tooth fractures...the meat is great for them though if you can get it at a good price.


Agree with the beef bones, but I've never fed much beef meat as well as I was told a long time ago that the protein in beef was not a particulary good one, this may have been breed specific, it was a Malamute breeder.

Also, it's something to do with red meat and arthritis, the uric acid?

What do you think about this? You know a lot more than me so would be interested in your opinion.


----------



## Sam1309

luvmydogs said:


> You can train your dogs to go to certain areas. I use towels if feeding inside, my dogs know which towel they are supposed to be eating on. At first they try to walk about with the meat but I gently take them back to their allocated towel. They soon get the hang of it.


might try this with bear at some point, but he eats his either outside of in the conservatory which is tiled.... so a quick mop with bleach sorts that out anyway


----------



## blade100

thanks for your help katiefranke good tips too


----------



## katiefranke

MarKalAm said:


> Agree with the beef bones, but I've never fed much beef meat as well as I was told a long time ago that the protein in beef was not a particulary good one, this may have been breed specific, it was a Malamute breeder.
> 
> Also, it's something to do with red meat and arthritis, the uric acid?
> 
> What do you think about this? You know a lot more than me so would be interested in your opinion.


Hi MarKalAm, this is an interesting one...and yes as you guessed it, I have an opinion on it!! lol...

Some time ago I heard something similar and did a little bit of digging - I had a look back over my notes and have summarised what I found below...

*The short answer *is that beef is actually not that high in uric acid at all as meats go, but also, research suggests that it is debatable as to how much uric acid in food actually contributes to arthritis.

*The long answer *for anyone wanting some more info on this is:

Uric acid in foods is usually measured as purine content. In the body, purines are metabolised to uric acid and are among the factors that are causes of elevated uric acid in the blood. With the consumption of high purine foods, blood uric acid levels may rise above the normal level. A quick google brings up a number of sites with food tables for purine content, so you can take a look at what are considered 'high' and 'low' foods.

This is just one example: Purine table

Apparently it is often advised for people to stick within the 100-400mg/100g range for anyone suffering with arthritis and to avoid those over 400mg/100g. I do not know what the levels are for dogs though as couldnt find particularly reliable info on it - but it would follow that if worried, you should pick the lower uric acid content foods.

You can see in the above link that most meats sit in this 'advised' range and beef in particular is in the 100s range so relatively low. Game, organ meat and some fish appear relatively high, but then you have to weigh up how much/how often these are fed to whether it is an issue.

Something to note is that cooking actually increases purine content of foods - so you would be doing well by feeding a raw diet.

Interestingly, brewer's yeast, which many people add as a supplement, is very high in purine…

However, saying all the above, from what I have read this all seems to be a very rough guideline as it is very difficult to be accurate as there would be variances with cuts/portion sizes/how often fed etc... it also depends on how much is directly absorbed through the digestive tract and individuals digest foods differently…*so a food that can irritate arthritic symptoms in one might not affect another and also different food combinations have different effects!!*

So in my opinion, I would potentially just avoid feeding the high uric acid content foods to excess if you feel there is a high risk of arthritis or for those dogs suffering from the condition already, but at the same time bear in mind this is just one small part of the picture, so many other factors should be considered also.

Hope that is useful to people!


----------



## Sam1309

hello all,

how much kidney can i feed bear a week????

bought some in tesco and looking to introduce it into his diet

any tips are most welcome


----------



## MarKalAm

katiefranke said:


> Hope that is useful to people!


Hi Katie, great info as always. 

I don't supplement (ie brewers yeast etc) as I think a varied diet should not need supplements (unless for medical reasons, or pregnancy etc). Interesting to know the beef/arthritis argument doesn't hold much weight. I was never 100% why beef (meat as well as bones) was not recommended.

Thanks for that.:thumbup:


----------



## Nicky10

Sam1309 said:


> hello all,
> 
> how much kidney can i feed bear a week????
> 
> bought some in tesco and looking to introduce it into his diet
> 
> any tips are most welcome


About 5% of his normal amount of food. Most people only feed organs once or twice a week because the amounts are so small.


----------



## delightfuldior

raw feeding isnt very convenient is it!! not in my books anyhow.. I just wanna give the dogs their food, them eat it out of the bowl and thats it. No putting towels out or training them.. adults and 3 year old come in and out of kitchen all the time so towels on the floor isnt a good idea and I am not restricting people from doing this when the dogs are eating as its not my house to do this, having to stick around and train them to eat at their bowls and mats isnt convenient for me as I like to feed then go off and do chores or make our food. 

I have been sampling it and two things cropped up.. my boy joey who has a sensitive tummy has had severe runs and this morning he had bright yellow poo, soft and gooey, covered in mucus and clear fluid dripping out of his back end :

the other morning I found a pile of sick which consisted of bone splints :scared:

surely I am doing something wrong for these to happen???? I'm slowly introducing it over the course of 2.5 weeks and only using chicken!


----------



## cinnamontoast

I am absolutely thrilled to find this! I've been after more tips for weeks. I started the boys on raw yesterday with chicken wings and lambs' liver. I had no idea offal should only be fed once in a while or that chicken wings were not completely OK to feed medium sized dogs. Hmm. The pups are fine and wanting more but the big dog left some today: I'm hoping it's because he was full (unusual!). They all seem fine, although of course I panicked about the bones! 

I'm going to see if the Raw Dogfood.co.uk site delivers near me: would be terribly useful. I see I'm going to have to buy another freezer!


----------



## LouJ69

I have a quick question that I hope someone can help me with! I am due to get a couple of rabbits that a friend caught yesterday & I am planning to give them to the dogs. Someone told me that rabbit bones are harder than most other bones & that it would be dangerous to give them to the dogs.....does anyone know anything about this? Is it ok to give them the whole rabbit or should I just let them eat the meat off the bones & take the bones away?


----------



## hobbs2004

LouJ69 said:


> I have a quick question that I hope someone can help me with! I am due to get a couple of rabbits that a friend caught yesterday & I am planning to give them to the dogs. Someone told me that rabbit bones are harder than most other bones & that it would be dangerous to give them to the dogs.....does anyone know anything about this? Is it ok to give them the whole rabbit or should I just let them eat the meat off the bones & take the bones away?


That would be news to me. My cats eat rabbit; bones, fur and all. Could that person have meant hare? But even then it would surprise me.


----------



## katiefranke

delightfuldior said:


> raw feeding isnt very convenient is it!!


I guess it depends how you feed it...

I dont really feed it to my lot for convenience...I do it because I believe it is the best thing for them and convenience didn't really come into it. It is one of the downsides that I wrote from my list in the original part of this thread, as it is not as convenient as opening a packet and pouring biscuits into a bowl, no...but then its like humans and our food... It is MUCH more convenient to open a microwave meal, stuff it in the microwave and eat it out of the packet and only have a knife and fork to wash up...as opposed to preparing a meal, getting the countertops and plates/bowls/saucepans dirty and having to clear up afterwards...but we all know that the homecooked meal is a whole lot healthier and we shouldn't be eating microwave meals every single meal just because they are convenient!! 

However, saying all that, I dont use towels or mats or rugs or feed outside...I feed the dog on a big flat stainless steel platter type bowl and the cats from large-ish flat stainless steel saucer bowls (meant for dogs). All of them were bought from pets at home as various size dog bowls. The flatness of them means they can easily get hold of the food and crunch away without needing to pull it out the bowl onto the floor.

I do tend to feed them separately so I put the cats in the downstairs hall which is laminate flooring and the dog in the kitchen. So if they do happen to spill the food onto the floor I can just wipe it down quickly and easily.

To be honest, when maggie used to eat kibble & wet food mixed as a pup, she used to dribble and drop bits all over the floor around the bowl anyway!! So that made much more mess on the floor than feeding raw ever has...you can also get those plastic wipe clean mats to go under the feeding area if you prefer...

My friend has 4 dogs to feed raw and she puts them all in their crates with their mats/beds removed and feeds them in there - then simply wipes the base clean after...that is a very easy way to keep them in one place when eating in a limited space.

There are loads of ways to make it much more convenient if you want to...

I know people talk about training them and you can with a dog, but I found it almost impossible with the cats - they just want to be left in peace to eat, so I shut them in the hallway and they sit there and eat their food in peace and don't feel the need to take it off anywhere. However, if someone/or the dog disturbs them, then they do tend to try and drag it off somewhere to eat...

So maybe you need to separate them (in different rooms or crates) or feed them one after the other and it will solve the problem without training...


----------



## katiefranke

LouJ69 said:


> Someone told me that rabbit bones are harder than most other bones & that it would be dangerous to give them to the dogs.....does anyone know anything about this? Is it ok to give them the whole rabbit or should I just let them eat the meat off the bones & take the bones away?


In my experience rabbits do have lots of little bones but they are soft and pliable like chicken bones. So an excellent source for the dogs (and cats) 

It depends how I get them to how I feed them...but I sometimes feed whole rabbits (skinned & gutted) and sometimes pieces like legs etc.


----------



## delightfuldior

katiefranke said:


> I guess it depends how you feed it...
> 
> I dont really feed it to my lot for convenience...I do it because I believe it is the best thing for them and convenience didn't really come into it. It is one of the downsides that I wrote from my list in the original part of this thread, as it is not as convenient as opening a packet and pouring biscuits into a bowl, no...but then its like humans and our food... It is MUCH more convenient to open a microwave meal, stuff it in the microwave and eat it out of the packet and only have a knife and fork to wash up...as opposed to preparing a meal, getting the countertops and plates/bowls/saucepans dirty and having to clear up afterwards...but we all know that the homecooked meal is a whole lot healthier and we shouldn't be eating microwave meals every single meal just because they are convenient!!
> 
> However, saying all that, I dont use towels or mats or rugs or feed outside...I feed the dog on a big flat stainless steel platter type bowl and the cats from large-ish flat stainless steel saucer bowls (meant for dogs). All of them were bought from pets at home as various size dog bowls. The flatness of them means they can easily get hold of the food and crunch away without needing to pull it out the bowl onto the floor.
> 
> I do tend to feed them separately so I put the cats in the downstairs hall which is laminate flooring and the dog in the kitchen. So if they do happen to spill the food onto the floor I can just wipe it down quickly and easily.
> 
> To be honest, when maggie used to eat kibble & wet food mixed as a pup, she used to dribble and drop bits all over the floor around the bowl anyway!! So that made much more mess on the floor than feeding raw ever has...you can also get those plastic wipe clean mats to go under the feeding area if you prefer...
> 
> My friend has 4 dogs to feed raw and she puts them all in their crates with their mats/beds removed and feeds them in there - then simply wipes the base clean after...that is a very easy way to keep them in one place when eating in a limited space.
> 
> There are loads of ways to make it much more convenient if you want to...
> 
> I know people talk about training them and you can with a dog, but I found it almost impossible with the cats - they just want to be left in peace to eat, so I shut them in the hallway and they sit there and eat their food in peace and don't feel the need to take it off anywhere. However, if someone/or the dog disturbs them, then they do tend to try and drag it off somewhere to eat...
> 
> So maybe you need to separate them (in different rooms or crates) or feed them one after the other and it will solve the problem without training...


Ah I have got one of these large flat stainless steel bowls, I think I bought it from petcetera.. I'll get another one and see if that works, because all the are using at the moment is a small tall round bowl and they have to delve deep to get to their food. Thanks for the idea!! :thumbup:

Any advice on the boney sick and watery stools??!!!!:scared:


----------



## katiefranke

delightfuldior said:


> Any advice on the boney sick and watery stools??!!!!:scared:


Unfortunately this is quite a common thing to happen initially.

Basically the bones not digesting properly is usually a sign that the dogs stomach acids are not yet strong enough to dissolve the bone properly...this usually happens for say the first couple of days to couple of weeks on raw.

Watery stools is possibly part of it too - just keep an eye on that, as you shoudl not be seeing proper diarrhea with the switch, only loose poops - I do remember them being a little yellow when first starting a dog on raw, especially when just feeding chicken...however, not normally bright yellow! I would think it is all part and parcel of the same thing while their systems get used to it. Unfortunately you prob just need to stick it out for a couple of days. How much bone are you feeding? Upping the bone usually helps keep the stools firmer - however, because of the other issue of the undigested bone in the sick, it seems they are not digesting it properly yet, so I would probably keep the bone level as it is.

Are you feeding completely raw - from your last post it sounded like maybe you are just trying it a bit at a time? I find switching completely avoids or gets rid of a lot of these problems, as their bodies transition much quicker to being able to digest the food properly...but if you feed half and half or raw only every few nights etc, it is much more difficult for them and they wont properly transition for some time, as the kibble keeps their stomach acids at a different ph level (less acidic) than needed.

Depending on the size of the bone pieces in the sick, you may also find that they are not crunching the bones into small enough pieces and so it is quite common in this instance for dogs to bring them back up and eat them again!!  ...to solve this, you would need to make sure you dont cut them up into too small a piece when feeding to them and possibly holding them till they get more used to crunching it all up properly...maybe even throwing the very last bit of bone away that is left in your hand so they cant just swallow this without crunching.

However, if the bones in the sick are much smaller and more like shards, then this is because they are not yet able to digest the food properly...it just takes a little bit of time for everything to adjust itself.

So basically, my advice would be, switch completely if you haven't already and my guess is you will find the problems will disappear very quickly...


----------



## cinnamontoast

Can I just clarify something? I'm a bit concerned that one of the pups seems to be a bit too skinny: should I be feeding 3% or 10% of their current body weight or of their projected ideal weight? I've heard 10% of current weight and 3% of current weight as well as percentages of projected weight. 

I'm going to up the amount today as I've been doing it by sight and the pup is definitely a bit too skinny. Thanks.


----------



## bewitched

This post is amazing! Thank you.
I have now switched Lula on to raw full time.
After just 2 weeks, better poos, better breath, less flakey skin and no more bouncing off the walls after eating!
Come rain or shine, she's off down the garden with her chicken quarter. Can't possibly eat it in the house. If the back door is closed, she just stands there, staring at it, with a lump of chicken hanging out of her mouth.
:lol:


----------



## SlingDash

The following link offers interesting reading - to both those already feeding a raw diet, as well as those considering it:

Is raw really better?

There are obviously opposing viewpoints on this subject, but there is zero evidence that I'm aware of to say that raw is the best way to go.

We 'failed' at feeding a 100% raw, meaty bone diet, because some of our pack simply would not stop wolfing down huge lumps of sharp bone, and this really concerned us. We now feed Orijen kibble with plenty of fresh, lightly-cooked 'human grade' meat, fresh and tinned fish, and the occasional bit of lightly-cooked offal such as kidney, liver and heart.


----------



## oveione

Well im going to continue feeding my dogs raw as they are both thriving on it .


----------



## SlingDash

oveione said:


> Well im going to continue feeding my dogs raw as they are both thriving on it .


There's that phrase again! 

There are plenty of folk here whose dogs are apparently "thriving" on Pedigree and Bakers.

This study appears, on the face of it, to be fairly comprehensive. It'd be wise to follow where the evidence leads, wouldn't you say?


----------



## oveione

wel im my opinion there are always people trying to put people off raw feeding i changed my girl to raw as she was barely eating dry food or wet and was losing weight it was the best thing i done she went for her booster today and had her healthcheck done and she is perfect weight and in good health so i think the evidence from raw feeding speaks for itself ! i am also a member of several raw feeding forums where some people have been feeding their dogs raw for years and their dogs have lived to ripe old ages and peoples dogs who have bad health issues which have gotten easier to manage or dissapeared just by switching them over to raw so yes i believe i am doing the right thing by my dogs.


----------



## MarKalAm

SlingDash said:


> There's that phrase again!


I think you have to see your dog _not thriving_ on a particular diet to be able to then see them thrive. My boy was ill for thr first 6-7 months of his life, on different diets, meds, all maner of blood test, skin scrapings - You name it. And it wasn't until I changed him onto a raw diet that he truely did THRIVE. This is a personal experience, I didn't change his diet as I just thought it was better for him, or becauise I felt like a change. I had a problem, and so sought out a diet to cure that, and thankfully raw did that for my dog. He is now 6 and he has never had the problems he once did since the diet change.

I think you can find anything online, I could probably tell you the sky isn't blue after a quick Google search. But the truth is you need to take the things you read, digest them and make the decision for yourself what you think is best. I can honestly say no one will be able to convince me anything is better than a raw diet. I've seen it with my own eyes, and from the research I have done it just clicks in my head and makes perfect sense.


----------



## MarKalAm

cinammontoast said:


> Can I just clarify something? I'm a bit concerned that one of the pups seems to be a bit too skinny: should I be feeding 3% or 10% of their current body weight or of their projected ideal weight?


Its 10% of their current weight *OR* 3% of the predicted adult weight. I think the 10% is a better idea as you can talor that to your pup better by weekly weigh ins. You can never be sure on a dogs adult weight, even pedigrees.


----------



## oveione

Well said markalam!


----------



## XxZoexX

Well my little mans doing fab on raw.. Coming up to 2 weeks of chicken and he had his first teeny piece of liver today.. Going to introduce Tripe next. Am thinking of leaving beef for a while incase its too rich is this right or should i dive in? 
Have to say his coat is no longer wirey its lovely and soft, most importantly he goes to the fridge ready in the morning and loves his meals where as before he wasnt that fussed and hes actually putting weight on and not pooping cow pats.


----------



## oveione

Glad to hear your boys doing well with my pup i pretty much just dived right in with most things which im glad i did as he eats everything where as sassy was older when i started her on raw getting her to eat her organ meat was a task shes better but still needs a bit of help lol


----------



## SlingDash

> The truth is you need to take the things you read, digest them and make the decision for yourself what you think is best.


You need to follow where the evidence leads. You can't always believe what you read anywhere, and there may be no substance to it to enable you to make an "informed decision" in the first place. If somebody can provide a peer-reviewed papaer on the benefits of raw feeding, then that's a different matter. As far as I'm aware, no such thing exists.

There have been numerous studies on raw feeding, I'm sure, but still there is no evidence to suggest that it is any better than feeding a high quality commercial food, or a high quality home-made diet, and what this particular study illustrates is that it may actually be harmful. I'm sure there are others that state the contrary. I can certainly believe that feeding large lumps of splintered bone can be harmful - something evidenced by the post recently made by one forum member whose dog became seriously ill after having eaten just that.

Until evidence to suggest that raw feeding is THE best way to feed our friends, we're sticking to our version of a high quality home made doggy diet. The only difference between what we feed and a full raw, meaty bones diet being that we don't allow them to ingest huge lumps of splintered bone, and we lightly steam all the 'human-grade' meat, fish and offal that we feed.


----------



## oveione

yep and most of these so called studies are by dog food manufacturers(sp) trying to scare monger people off whats best for dogs!


----------



## SlingDash

> yep and most of these so called studies are by dog food manufacturers(sp) trying to scare monger people off whats best for dogs!


That is possibly the case, but I don't think it's fair to say that "most" of them are such. What you will find is that most proponents of raw feeding claim this is the case. It's something that is high-up on the list of reasons to feed raw for most, I'd say.

You could just as easily say the same for those who claim a raw diet is best, although they have no 'studies' to prove their point of view that I'm aware of - and that is a BIG difference.


----------



## MarKalAm

SlingDash said:


> You can't always believe what you read anywhere


Yes, this was my pont with your link.  You will find conflicting arguments on almost everything, it is your choice to weigh up the pros and cons.



SlingDash said:


> I can certainly believe that feeding large lumps of splintered bone can be harmful - something evidenced by the post recently made by one forum member whose dog became seriously ill after having eaten just that.


I don't think I've seen anyone reccomend feeding cooked bones. :confused1:



SlingDash said:


> we're sticking to our version of a high quality home made doggy diet.


I'm happy for you. I don't think anyone is trying to change your mind.



SlingDash said:


> The only difference between what we feed and a full raw, meaty bones diet being that we don't allow them to ingest huge lumps of splintered bone, and we lightly steam all the 'human-grade' meat, fish and offal that we feed.


I don't think you fully understand a raw diet from this comment.


----------



## Malmum

MarKalAm said:


> I don't think you fully understand a raw diet from this comment.


Quite, I do believe the OP on the other thread has missed her dog eating from the bin - I could not see how it could eat a rabbit or part of one when out and not be seen doing so! :confused1:


----------



## SlingDash

> it is your choice to weigh up the pros and cons.


What both sides in this debate claim is that their way of feeding is the best. Nobody can weigh-up anything unless there is actual evidence to swing them one way or another. What raw feeding proponents lack, is the evidence that it is any better than feeding a high quality commercial food or a home-made doggy diet using high quality meat, fish and offal etc.



> I don't think I've seen anyone reccomend feeding cooked bones.


Who's talking about cooked bones? Not me - and neither was the poster who recently talked about their dog being seriously injured by eating bones as far as I can tell. She said the bones were eaten when the dog was out walking, so the odds are that they were raw bones from a carcass. What I find misleading/ill-informed is that people claim cooked bones splinter but raw bones don't, which is simply not the case. The only reason we stopped feeding 100% raw is because of the huge shards of bone that our pack were swallowing.



> I'm happy for you. I don't think anyone is trying to change your mind.


And I'm not trying to change anybody's mind either - I'm merely contributing to the topic. As it's titled "EVERYTHING you need to know", I just think it shouldn't be quite so one-sided, and that people deserve to hear another side of the issue.

I'm quite happy to have my mind changed should the evidence in favour of raw feeding be forthcoming. I want what's best for our pack - that's all.



> I don't think you fully understand a raw diet from this comment.


Not sure what is meant by that. As I said previously, we did feed 100% raw for around six weeks.



> I could not see how it could eat a rabbit or part of one when out and not be seen doing so!


Really? Ours eat god-knows-what all the time, and they're usually half way across a field when I see them doing so. There's no way they will leave a tasty morsel alone once they've found it and I'm nowhere near to take it off them.


----------



## hobbs2004

SlingDash said:


> The following link offers interesting reading - to both those already feeding a raw diet, as well as those considering it:
> 
> Is raw really better?


Don't forget though that the authors of that article also have an agenda, namely to make you buy the supplements etc that they flog on that site.

True, there have been no comparative rigorous studies that have explored the impact of a raw diet vs a wet vs a dry diet. I think the main reason why this has not been done or published is who would fund that study? There is no equivalent body to pet food manufacturers who would be interested in the results. And pet food manufacturers would only be interested if these studies showed that raw is not better.

Also, as it is so difficult to compare wet food vs wet food, so it is difficult to compare one raw diet with the next. Which one would they study? Which commercial food would they pitch it against?

How long would they follow animals for? From birth to the end? Etc


----------



## SlingDash

Some excellent points, Hobbs. :thumbup:


----------



## MarKalAm

SlingDash said:


> Nobody can weigh-up anything unless there is actual evidence to swing them one way or another.


What I find interesting is all the places telling you comercial foods are better and raw is dangerous go on to reccomend their products. 



SlingDash said:


> Who's talking about cooked bones? Not me - and neither was the poster who recently talked about their dog being seriously injured by eating bones as far as I can tell. She said the bones were eaten when the dog was out walking, so the odds are that they were raw bones from a carcass.


This case can not be used, as no one knows what the dog ate. You think it was probably a raw bone. I can safely say I have never seen a raw bone whilst out with the dogs except roadkill, and I'm sure most would notice a dog eating that. I have howerver taken a cooked bone from my dogs mouth from someone rubbish.
All I do know is I had few raw carcasses practically every day for the past 5+ years and never had this problem, as has a friend of mine who has fed her 10+ dogs raw for the past 15 years. On the other hand we all know how dangerous cooked bones are.
Make your own mind up about that one.



SlingDash said:


> What I find misleading/ill-informed is that people claim cooked bones splinter but raw bones don't, which is simply not the case.


Some do, yes, I will agree with that, I think that's been mentioned in this thread. Also, to start with you do find the odd bit of bone in stools.



SlingDash said:


> and that people deserve to hear another side of the issue.


Agreed.



SlingDash said:


> Not sure what is meant by that. As I said previously, we did feed 100% raw for around six weeks.


I thought you fed dry too?


----------



## katiefranke

slingdash, did you actually read Raw Meaty Bones by Dr Tom Lonsdale that I sent to you? Every section of that book is fully referenced with proper peer-reviewed journals/articles etc...there are hundreds referenced in that book that show clear evidence as to what commercial pet food contains and illnesses and health issues that are caused by it. I have personally read many of the referenced articles and journals myself also in my research. I strongly feel that everyone should research it themselves before leaping in or making any decisions, but everyone will have a different level to which they are willing to research it before they feel comfortable to make that switch.

You are not going to find lots of money spent on research to show a raw diet is best, as the ones with the money are the pet food manufacturers...who also sponsor the veterinary research...

It is completely your choice what you want to believe and what you want to feed but those of us who have spent many months and years researching canine nutrition, digestion and anatomy and experienced a dog suffering from a previous way of feeding only to have a complete turnaround on a raw diet are probably going to have a very different opinion  - as to us this way just 'clicks' and is pure common sense. 

This thread is about educating those who choose to feed a raw diet - and helping them do it the right way - giving any advice needed etc along the way - it is not telling everyone they should feed this way. If they dont want to feed raw, then they dont need to read the thread if it makes them feel like it is being pushed as the best way.

By all means, if you wish to research it and create a thread with information and links to books, sites, articles etc to show how to feed other ways, then I am sure many people would appreciate it. :thumbsup:

edit: I think at the end of the day, as I hope I have made clear all along, is that we all have to make up our own minds based on what is available out there - and stick with something we are comfortable with and that suits our dogs, whichever way of feeding that might be...for me and mine that way is 100% raw and no going back.


----------



## Hippyhippyha

Very helpful! after a hefty vet bill (my Charley required dental work) I have been thinking of changing my dogs diets, was thinking about bones dogs enjoy but there is always a worry the bone will splinter. I was told about raw chicken wings, that they don't splitter, But was worried about food poisoning. your article has put my mind to rest and i think i will try my dogs on a raw food diet.


----------



## EBT

Hippyhippyha said:


> I was told about raw chicken wings, that they don't splitter


Does anyone else cut chicken wings? I cut mine at the joints because i'm worried that mine may swallow them whole and they 'unfold' in their throats.


----------



## 300roses

Hi katie, I have been following this thread, though this is the first time I'm posting here. This is a great raw diet thread and the info you have provided is very useful. Learnt alot from you. :thumbup:



katiefranke said:


> I think at the end of the day, as I hope I have made clear all along, is that we all have to make up our own minds based on what is available out there - and stick with something we are comfortable with and that suits our dogs, whichever way of feeding that might be...for me and mine that way is 100% raw and no going back.


I agree totally with you. 

I have been battling my dog's demodectic mange for over a year. Her hair fell out, leaving a big bald patch on her body. She was on kibbles, then later I switched to homecooked. But nothing helped. Her bald patch remained and no signs of hair growth. My vet was even telling me that her hair follicles were dead and he did not think any hair was going to grow back.

Then finally during the last visit, he advised me to put her on a raw diet and see if it can help. Even before his advice, I have already been reading up on raw and its many benefits, but couldnt quite get started cos I'm concerned about the handling of raw meat, the choking of bones etc etc. But after my vet advised me to go raw, I decided I must overcome all my psychological barriers and start her on raw.

So I went raw and so glad I did. Just after two months into raw, to my amazement and delight, her hair started to grow back where it had been totally bald. Now she is over 3 months into raw and doing great on it.

For me, it is most definitely raw all the way too and no turning back. I will continue to learn more on raw and how I can further improve her raw diet. This is a thread I will definitely stay in.


----------



## katiefranke

EBT said:


> Does anyone else cut chicken wings? I cut mine at the joints because i'm worried that mine may swallow them whole and they 'unfold' in their throats.


To be honest I dont feed things that small on their own usually - well only to the cats! lol - because I would worry about choking too. But I wouldnt cut them either, as cutting with a knife etc exposes rather sharp ends of the bone without meat round them and also with small pieces I really would worry that she would gulp it down without crunching!

Instead I give bigger pieces that she really couldn't get down in one go and I havent had any problems :thumbup:



300roses said:


> For me, it is most definitely raw all the way too and no turning back. I will continue to learn more on raw and how I can further improve her raw diet. This is a thread I will definitely stay in.


It is great to hear your story and so pleased to hear your dog is now doing so well - and congrats on having an enlightened vet!! :thumbup:

I think those of us who have seen the before and after difference of an animal suffering are probably the most passionate about this way of feeding!

And you are spot on about continuing to learn more and research - I am continually learning new things and researching different stuff around different foods to feed for different things. I also change their diet regularly, with the seasons, with any issues that crop up and when I can get new items from new suppliers etc! Plus I find that depending on activity levels different things need tweaking (more fat for energy when we are doing agility training etc). It is a continually evolving thing...

Big thumbs up for making the leap  - see you around!!


----------



## MarKalAm

katiefranke said:


> I think those of us who have seen the before and after difference of an animal suffering are probably the most passionate about this way of feeding!


:thumbsup: Very true.


----------



## cinnamontoast

EBT said:


> Does anyone else cut chicken wings? I cut mine at the joints because i'm worried that mine may swallow them whole and they 'unfold' in their throats.


I have been cutting mine and supervising very closely but today, they had whole wings. Very interesting! Zak learnt to actually chew his food this morning, therefore!

I must say, tho, that although I'm not going back to rubbish filler food that the dogs just can't digest, there are some things about raw that strike me:

*no more licks from dogs-too much raw chicken!
*slightly stinky breath, no more than with kibble but definite raw meat euw smell!
*more cleaning and care needed re wiping surfaces, using the 'raw' chopping board and I'm going through disinfectant quite quickly!
*desperation to try different stuff is silly cos it leads to diarrhoea in any great amount and I should know better!


----------



## cinnamontoast

MarKalAm said:


> Its 10% of their current weight *OR* 3% of the predicted adult weight. I think the 10% is a better idea as you can talor that to your pup better by weekly weigh ins. You can never be sure on a dogs adult weight, even pedigrees.


Fab, thanks, that's much easier for me: my percentages are pants!

Bear-cub was looking too skinny. He weighed in last week at Pets at Home (handy!) and is nearly a kg heavier than his brother.


----------



## MarKalAm

This has prob been put on her already, but it's an easy way to Calculate percentages by weight. It does not go up to 10%, but you can do 2 fives. 



cinammontoast said:


> *no more licks from dogs-too much raw chicken! *Dogs lick a lotta disgusting things I'd be concerned about lol*
> *slightly stinky breath, no more than with kibble but definite raw meat euw smell! *Yeah, they do smell a bit bloody when they've had a juicy bone. Baby wipes to clean the 'blood legs and chops' does the trick *
> *more cleaning and care needed re wiping surfaces, using the 'raw' chopping board and I'm going through disinfectant quite quickly! *Do it in the garden? You should only need to 'chop and bag' once a week.*
> *desperation to try different stuff is silly cos it leads to diarrhoea in any great amount and I should know better! *Add new things very gradually, they can have plenty of variety after a while, just don't go mad at first as their body is not used to it.*


----------



## SlingDash

> I can safely say I have never seen a raw bone whilst out with the dogs except roadkill, and I'm sure most would notice a dog eating that


You've been very lucky then! We walk 100% in the countryside (because we're lucky enough to live smack bang in the middle of it), and there are dead things all over the place. Ours often eat god-knows-what, so I bet they're getting some raw bone from somewhere. Thankfully, I just don't know about it. 

I remember we once walked by the back of a school, and our old boy (now deceased) sniffed out the bins, in front of which were a pile of left-over chicken carcasses from the kitchens. This was before we'd even heard of a raw diet, and he chomped the lot! I couldn't get to him because of a fence, and he just wouldn't leave the things alone, no matter how much I yelled! :scared:

He was absolutely fine afterwards...


----------



## Malmum

The two little guys in my signature love their bones, chicken necks, wings, legs and if they can manage it at 10 kgs each I have no worries with the big 57kgs dogs I own. Because they are all used to raw and have had it for many years they don't gulp they chew, the big guys also have wings and crunch the lot.

When a dog is starting on raw they may gulp and not chew. That's because they love it so much, they want to devour it as soon as possible, so it's always best to hang on to it until they start to chew! 

This is a wonderful thread and I am constantly surprised how often other threads on dry/wet feeders seem to have problems but won't try raw. If a dog chokes on a bone or has an obstruction (do not know of any personally but know many raw feeders) at least it can be treated by a vet. However what isn't seen is the damage commercial food can do and when it is diagnosed - mostly kidney failure - it's often too late to do anything about it.


----------



## EBT

katiefranke said:


> To be honest I dont feed things that small on their own usually - well only to the cats! lol - because I would worry about choking too. But I wouldnt cut them either, as cutting with a knife etc exposes rather sharp ends of the bone without meat round them and also with small pieces I really would worry that she would gulp it down without crunching!
> 
> Instead I give bigger pieces that she really couldn't get down in one go and I havent had any problems :thumbup:


I feed them half chickens but cut the wings. They're bull terriers so need to be fed decent sized portions. Thanks for reply


----------



## MarKalAm

SlingDash said:


> You've been very lucky then!


Not really, I wouldn't let them eat them anyway. I'm surrounded by farm land but I can honestly say I don't see dead carcasses lying around.



SlingDash said:


> Ours often eat god-knows-what


Be careful, who knows how they died. Remember the farmer who used poison? It just takes one. 



SlingDash said:


> so I bet they're getting some raw bone from somewhere.


Can't be that bad then, eh.  I am surprised you allow that though if you think they are so dangerous.



SlingDash said:


> Thankfully, I just don't know about it.


Thankfully? They can eat bone as long as you don't know. :confused1: I find more peace of mind in knowing what my dogs eat.

I think we should stop taking over this great thread of Katies now, it's not fair. We have very different views on things and I will be leaving it there.


----------



## katiefranke

MarKalAm said:


> I think we should stop taking over this great thread of Katies now, it's not fair. We have very different views on things and I will be leaving it there.


Yeah you two!! Meanies


----------



## MarKalAm

katiefranke said:


> Yeah you two!! Meanies


:dita:


----------



## katiefranke

MarKalAm said:


> :dita:


Lol!!!!! I didnt even know that was a smillie option  ha ha ha, made me giggle


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## SlingDash

> Can't be that bad then, eh. I am surprised you allow that though if you think they are so dangerous.


As I said before, I don't like the fact that they pick up dead things and scoff 'em, it's just that they usually find them in the middle of a field, and it's been chomped before I get the chance to take it off them.



> I think we should stop taking over this great thread of Katies now, it's not fair. We have very different views on things and I will be leaving it there.


I don't think anybody's "taking over" anything, and I'm sure Katie doesn't mind people discussing this issue. It is a fantastic thread, and it's great to share opinions within it and to keep it 'alive' by doing so.

Just got some fresh ox and lambs' hearts from the butcher, and the pack have enjoyed every last mouthful. :thumbup:

I'm going to try to get hold of some fresh tripe from TDFC. We just can't find it anywhere around here.


----------



## Malmum

Ooow tripe - they just love that smelly stuff.


----------



## SlingDash

Malmum said:


> Ooow tripe - they just love that smelly stuff.


So it does stink, then? I was under the impression that it was the frozen stuff we were getting from Prize Choice that pen-and-inked?

They say that the 'green' tripe is what you should buy, but what's the difference? Does the 'green' honk as much as the usual stuff?


----------



## hobbs2004

SlingDash said:


> So it does stink, then? I was under the impression that it was the frozen stuff we were getting from Prize Choice that pen-and-inked?
> 
> They say that the 'green' tripe is what you should buy, but what's the difference? Does the 'green' honk as much as the usual stuff?


The green tripe contains all the goodies of tripe, which has been bleached away in the white stuff. So white tripe doesn't contain the nutrients that green tripe has:

A sample of green tripe was analyzed by Woodson-Tenent Laboratories, Inc. in Gainesville, Georgia. The results for sample #G97-16346 are as follows:

Moisture 71.37%
Crude Fat 11.70%
Protein 15.82%
Ash 1.23%
Phosphorous 0.14%
Calcium 0.12%
Calories 756.35 cal/lb.
pH 6.12
Lactic Acid Bacteria 12,000 CFU/G
Linoleic Acid (EFA) 2.72%
Linolenic Acid (EFA) 0.37%

In an analysis of a sample of green tripe by a Woodson-Tenant Lab in Atlanta, Georgia, it was discovered that the calcium tophosphorous ratio is 1:1, the overall pH is on the acidic side which is better for digestion, protein is 15.1, fat 11.7 and it contained the essential fatty acids, Linoleic and Linolenic, in their recommended proportions. Also discovered, was the presence of Lactic Acid Bacteria. Lactic Acid Bacteria, also known as Lactobacillus Acidophilus, is the good intestinal bacteria.

from: green tripe :: nutrition :: raw food for your dogs and cats :: truecarnivores.com

I used to have a really good link to an analysis, which wasn't this but I am not sure what bookmark folder I stored that under.


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## cinnamontoast

Got hold of Scott today: agree they need to get some staff! Guy was v helpful but hard to get hold of and told me to email in a couple of weeks when he'll be back in the area so my order doesn't drop down and disappear! Hmm.


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## katiefranke

cinammontoast said:


> Got hold of Scott today: agree they need to get some staff! Guy was v helpful but hard to get hold of and told me to email in a couple of weeks when he'll be back in the area so my order doesn't drop down and disappear! Hmm.


I know - annoying isn't it... 

I wish there were some other places similar, but I haven't found one that really compares that delivers where I need...


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## katiefranke

*Tripe:* This is a good article about its uses and benefits by Dr Jeannie Thomason:

Tripe Offal and Awesome

It gives a breakdown in detail of the goodies in it including enzymes, fatty acids, vits & minerals, and probiotics.


----------



## staffybarney

Hi all, i'm new here and would like to say i've learnt alot over the last hour or so reading about the raw diet.

I have 2 staffordshire bull terriers and have been feeding them full time raw for the last 6 months and haven't had problems as yet.

i've been feeding them prize choice in the morning, chicken wing in the afternoon and our own recipe in the evening.

A week ago i decided to change the prize choice for meat from DAF foods, well they love it!!!

Only problem is, they seem to be pooing alot more, and the poo is rather sticky, which i haven't seen since i've been feeding raw, is this right??

Thanks again for some brill info on here!!:thumbup:


----------



## delightfuldior

Well yesterday I started the RMB, they got a bit of ox tail in the day as a treat and chicken quarters for dinner with a bit of sunflower oil for their coats. This morning Igave them an egg each which was funny because Gemma rolled it out into the garden and Joey ran off!, I had to encourage them and slightly opened it for them. They ate the egg but left the shell. 
I'm not sure I am feeding enough though. I have worked it all out correctly but it doesnt look much  and they were scrounging for food straight away. Maybe they were looking for more raw?
I am also still unsure about what size chunks to give them. I dont want to give them it whole as they wander off with it, so I am cutting quarters with bone into large chunks. I did read on here that this was ok, is it?
I found another boney pile of sick this morning and Joey was busting to get outside for a poo but I couldnt see what it was like as it was still dark and I left for work. He is the one with the dodgy tummy.
I will also be adding some brocolli and sweet potato in soon, when I get chance.
Here is a pic of them scoffing....


----------



## delightfuldior

SlingDash said:


> So it does stink, then? I was under the impression that it was the frozen stuff we were getting from Prize Choice that pen-and-inked?
> 
> They say that the 'green' tripe is what you should buy, but what's the difference? Does the 'green' honk as much as the usual stuff?


I used to buy the prize choice blocks from pets at home and I heated it up to top the orijen I was feeding.. and OMG :eek6: it reeked!! I had to stop feeding it as the smell wouldnt go away. I also think that this one is bleached in some way.. so yeah the green one is the better one.


----------



## cinnamontoast

staffybarney said:


> Only problem is, they seem to be pooing alot more, and the poo is rather sticky, which i haven't seen since i've been feeding raw, is this right??


They might be a little sensitive to new items so introduce really small amounts and gradually build up, don't just give something new in huge amounts.



delightfuldior said:


> I'm not sure I am feeding enough though. I have worked it all out correctly but it doesnt look much  and they were scrounging for food straight away. Maybe they were looking for more raw?


It's pure protein you're giving them now, though, so you probably are feeding less volume. They don't necessarily need more but might not feel full immediately like if they were on kibble. I'd check their weight and judge it by eye, too, in terms of are they skinny etc.


----------



## katiefranke

staffybarney said:


> Only problem is, they seem to be pooing alot more, and the poo is rather sticky, which i haven't seen since i've been feeding raw, is this right??
> 
> Thanks again for some brill info on here!!:thumbup:


Hi there, glad its been useful 

Thinking about DAF & prize choice, depending on which ones you were feeding, have you changed the protein source? So for instance with the DAF minces, have you given them a new animal source that they havent had before in Prize Choice?

Or it could be the formulation, which is my guess (dependant on which ones you have bought as I know there seem to be different ones in the ranges) - as far as I know, Prize Choice does not contain vegetables but DAF are based on BARF and include quite a proportion of vegetables...if they are not used to this it could upset their tummies. Or perhaps the proportion of organs is different, as if the DAF has say more liver just for instance, then this could definitely result in that sticky poop you are talking about...

...which ones of the Prize Choice were you feeding and which ones of the DAF have you bought?

It isn't right specifically for them to be like this, but it isn't anything to worry about just yet. I would suggest you need to decide if you want to feed veg or not. I personally do not feed it and if I did, I wouldnt want it in a mix, I would add it myself.

If you do want to continue with the DAF minces, you probably need to go back a step and alternate between Prize Choice and DAF each day, perhaps choosing one or two proteins that you know they have had loads and are good on and stick with these for the first couple of weeks - so just for example, chicken mince and tripe mince.



delightfuldior said:


> I found another boney pile of sick this morning and Joey was busting to get outside for a poo but I couldnt see what it was like as it was still dark and I left for work. He is the one with the dodgy tummy.
> I will also be adding some brocolli and sweet potato in soon, when I get chance.


Can you describe the bones in the sick? And how long after eating was he sick?

What time of night do you feed them? And when are they last let out to the toilet?

Re the size of the pieces, I think it really depends on your dogs as to what you can get away with. As a rule, I would advise against cutting pieces up too much with bone in, as it could pose a choking hazard...or at the very least it doesn't encourage much crunching/chomping on the bone to break it down to smaller pieces, giving the teeth a good work out and making the bone small enough for a newbie raw fed dog's stomach to be able to deal with.

I would possibly hold off on the veg for now - get them settled properly on the meat & bones...once they can digest it properly (no bone visible in the sick or poop), then you could add if you feel its necessary. And even then, add it VERY slowly if you have a dog with a sensitive tum. You normally find that with vegetables the dog will poop more and it will be less firm, so it will probably be a little bit trial and error with your boy with sensitivities.

I do not feed veg unless the odd leftover from my own dinner.


----------



## cinnamontoast

I'm going to lay off the veg: I gave blended cabbage yesterday and the result has not been pretty! 

There's conflicting advice between the BARF and the pure raw meat/bones sites re the necessity for veg. I can't imagine dogs in the wild sniffing out tasty carrots etc and one site recommends allowing dogs to 'graze' on grass (Jake was a demon for this!) and that should be enough vegetable matter.


----------



## katiefranke

cinammontoast said:


> I'm going to lay off the veg: I gave blended cabbage yesterday and the result has not been pretty!
> 
> There's conflicting advice between the BARF and the pure raw meat/bones sites re the necessity for veg. I can't imagine dogs in the wild sniffing out tasty carrots etc and one site recommends allowing dogs to 'graze' on grass (Jake was a demon for this!) and that should be enough vegetable matter.


yuk!!  poor you

Yep I know - when I first started researching it it all seemed so confusing, with conflicting ideas everywhere! But then I decided to start by logically looking at the anatomy and digestive system of the dog and cat first to understand what they needed before looking at the different ways to do it...from this I then knew a lot of stuff about how everything was used/broken down etc in the body. Then on reading different viewpoints of raw, I have to say that it really didnt make sense from what I knew of canine anatomy to feed vegetables.

The more I read, the more I found there was really no evidence to suggest that they NEEDED veg...yes of course they could eat them and sometimes they may even pick up and eat windfallen fruit off the ground...but this is more because they are scavengers and will eat anything that comes their way, not because they actually needed it. I eat a lot of things I dont need, but I like the taste so I do!! lol Plus fruit is actually very different, especially ripe fruit as it is actually easier for a dog to digest than veg.

When you look at what dogs need too, its complete amino acid chains, which are not present in vegetation - not to mention their physical make up doesnt allow for digestion of the cellulose! It also appears to be a fallacy that wolves would have eaten stomach contents of their prey...see some info I collated and posted on another thread: Wolves do not eat stomach contents
So for me that arguement doesnt hold either...however, even if we were to say they did, then it would be mainly grasses almost completely digested, not potatoes/cabbage/swede etc...

And perhaps more importantly for me in my choice on how to feed, is the response of my own animals - which has shown that veg doesn't agree! The result is always wind, smellier breath and bulkier, softer poops!!

Anyway, lots of debate on it and its everyones choice to decide for themselves, but this way makes most sense to me, so I'm sticking with it.


----------



## ghengis

hi i have been coming back and forth with this thread and seeing loads of stuff i will get for them too.

the only thing is the amount of food and that i am a bit slow withthings thanks to having the maths version of dyslexia so my brain dont work to well

and is made worse by having 3 dogs lol gaia the mum to khan whois 6 months old now, and my lil one is ghengis who is 11 weeks old this sunday. so i i try and make sure they get enough through judging their weight and condition which i know is not right.

for example their 1st feed was gaia 4 wings and khan and lil one 3 and their kibble. they had bones during the week too only one who had problems was gaia being sick. 

they ate all the meat of the bones but would they also try and eat the bones as well this is something i am not sure of too.

is there someone who could help me out on this please :thumbup:


----------



## cinnamontoast

Poor Brig could not cope with a turkey drumstick today so daddy had to hold it while he munched away!


----------



## cinnamontoast

ghengis said:


> hi i have been coming back and forth with this thread and seeing loads of stuff i will get for them too.
> 
> the only thing is the amount of food and that i am a bit slow withthings thanks to having the maths version of dyslexia so my brain dont work to well
> 
> they ate all the meat of the bones but would they also try and eat the bones as well this is something i am not sure of too.
> 
> is there someone who could help me out on this please :thumbup:


They should be eating the bones. That's half the point. What do the dogs weigh and what breed are they? If you tell me what breed they are and what sex, I can tell you how much they need per day.


----------



## cinnamontoast

katiefranke said:


> Anyway, lots of debate on it and its everyones choice to decide for themselves, but this way makes most sense to me, so I'm sticking with it.


Quite agree: I'm so happy to have found this forum and the advice on it, mostly yours. I'm laying off everything but meat/bones. The pups can't tolerate too much liver or fish so it's mostly chicken currently. Big dog is better with other stuff so he can have a wider variety-he was in heaven cos OH had to spend ages holding the food earlier so he got fab food and daddy to 'play' with for ages!


----------



## EBT

ghengis said:


> hi i have been coming back and forth with this thread and seeing loads of stuff i will get for them too.
> 
> the only thing is the amount of food and that i am a bit slow withthings thanks to having the maths version of dyslexia so my brain dont work to well
> 
> and is made worse by having 3 dogs lol gaia the mum to khan whois 6 months old now, and my lil one is ghengis who is 11 weeks old this sunday. so i i try and make sure they get enough through judging their weight and condition which i know is not right.
> 
> for example their 1st feed was gaia 4 wings and khan and lil one 3 *and their kibble*. they had bones during the week too only one who had problems was gaia being sick.
> 
> they ate all the meat of the bones but would they also try and eat the bones as well this is something i am not sure of too.
> 
> is there someone who could help me out on this please :thumbup:


Don't think you should be mixing raw food with kibble. All to do with differing digestion rates I think. Newbie to the diet myself, sure Katie will confirm or tell me shut up!:thumbup:


----------



## delightfuldior

katiefranke said:


> Can you describe the bones in the sick? And how long after eating was he sick?
> 
> What time of night do you feed them? And when are they last let out to the toilet?
> 
> Re the size of the pieces, I think it really depends on your dogs as to what you can get away with. As a rule, I would advise against cutting pieces up too much with bone in, as it could pose a choking hazard...or at the very least it doesn't encourage much crunching/chomping on the bone to break it down to smaller pieces, giving the teeth a good work out and making the bone small enough for a newbie raw fed dog's stomach to be able to deal with.
> 
> I would possibly hold off on the veg for now - get them settled properly on the meat & bones...once they can digest it properly (no bone visible in the sick or poop), then you could add if you feel its necessary. And even then, add it VERY slowly if you have a dog with a sensitive tum. You normally find that with vegetables the dog will poop more and it will be less firm, so it will probably be a little bit trial and error with your boy with sensitivities.
> 
> I do not feed veg unless the odd leftover from my own dinner.


small shards, very pointy :scared:, the poo is dry and pale which I am assuming is from the ground bone??? Joey finished his meal last night and about 5 mins after started yelping and lunging forward as if somert was stuck, I panicked so wached him on the back and chest.. Gave him a dry slice of bread to dislodge anything in there. :eek6: I checked his poo and thankfully no sign of internal bleeding or owt like that so I'm hoping it was just a bit of bone that was scratchy as it went down.

I'll stop cutting the bone and and give it whole.. its bone from the quarters.

I gave them a spoon full of spinach mixed in and around the chicken last night and they loved it. Poo was all normal this morning.

I feed them around 6pm, they go outside for toilets etc whenever they tell me and always before I go bed about 10pm or 11pm. Last night was 1pm as I went out and they had plenty of time outside before I retired. I found the sick the morning after their tea. No idea who did it.


----------



## katiefranke

ghengis said:


> hi i have been coming back and forth with this thread and seeing loads of stuff i will get for them too.
> 
> the only thing is the amount of food and that i am a bit slow withthings thanks to having the maths version of dyslexia so my brain dont work to well
> 
> ...
> 
> is there someone who could help me out on this please :thumbup:


Sure no probs, we can help work it all out with you, so dont worry 

As the others have said, first off let us know:

Age
Breed
Male/Female
Current Weight
Ideal Weight (if you dont know we can google it/estimate it)
Neutered or not
Exercise levels (high/average/low)

Bones are an important part of a raw diet - but lets come onto that in a bit when you let us know the above and then we can go from there!

Re mixing the kibble - its probably best if you want to feed both to feed raw in the AM and kibble in the early evening for the PM meal. It allows the kibble to digest longer so it doesnt hold up the raw food the next morning... they digest at diffferent rates, somewhere around 4-6 hours average for raw food and 12-48 hours, although normally 12-16 hours for kibble.


----------



## katiefranke

delightfuldior said:


> I'll stop cutting the bone and and give it whole.. its bone from the quarters.
> 
> ...
> 
> I feed them around 6pm, they go outside for toilets etc whenever they tell me and always before I go bed about 10pm or 11pm. Last night was 1pm as I went out and they had plenty of time outside before I retired. I found the sick the morning after their tea. No idea who did it.


Yep I think def stop cutting the bone.

It actually sounds like you might be feeding a bit too much bone. Maybe cut it back a bit on the bone and increase the meat a bit more...it is likely they just cannot digest the bone properly yet and you are feeding a little much for them at this stage so some of it is coming back up in their sick.

If it was massive lumps coming back up, then I would say its because they are swalling it whole - and its their way of regurgitating something they cannot digest - but they normally eat it!! lol 

Make sure they go for a poop before they go to bed, then they really shouldnt be busting to go the next morning if you have fed their PM meal at 6pm as it should have gone through already...if you are feeding a little too much bone for them though it could be that it is taking a bit longer to go through and so thats why he needed to go early morning.

Are you feeding anything else other than raw meat/bone/offal at the mo? If you are feeding any commercial treats or kibble at any point, this could be holding up the other food so you might need to adjust when you feed what to get the timings right for them...


----------



## ghengis

katiefranke said:


> Sure no probs, we can help work it all out with you, so dont worry
> 
> As the others have said, first off let us know:
> 
> Age
> Breed
> Male/Female
> Current Weight
> Ideal Weight (if you dont know we can google it/estimate it)
> Neutered or not
> Exercise levels (high/average/low)
> 
> Bones are an important part of a raw diet - but lets come onto that in a bit when you let us know the above and then we can go from there!
> 
> Re mixing the kibble - its probably best if you want to feed both to feed raw in the AM and kibble in the early evening for the PM meal. It allows the kibble to digest longer so it doesnt hold up the raw food the next morning... they digest at diffferent rates, somewhere around 4-6 hours average for raw food and 12-48 hours, although normally 12-16 hours for kibble.


Age 2yrs old
Breed english bull terrier
Male/Female female
Current Weight think she was 25kg last time she was weighed
Ideal Weight not sure but she is in good health so far
Neutered or not not yet.
Exercise levels high energy level but happy to sleep next to me all day

Age 6 months old
Breed english bull terrier
Male/Female male
Current Weight think he was 11kg 
Ideal Weight not a clue
Neutered or not not yet cant get him done till jan as they are booked up
Exercise levels very high

Age 12 0r 13 weeks old
Breed dog de bordeux
Male/Female male
Current Weight think he was 10kg
Ideal Weight not sure
Neutered or not not yet too 
Exercise levels medium

like i say i am really crap with numbers due to suffering with crappy dyscalculia


----------



## katiefranke

Ok no probs, right lets go through one at a time:

*2yr old female, unneutered english bull terrier of approx 25kg - assuming receives average excercise amounts with walks etc*
Recommended feeding amount is somewhere between 2-3% of body weight a day (or 14-21% per week) and with a healthy adult, its best to pick mid-way to start. So you need to feed 2.5% a day or 645g per day (lets round up to 650g to make it easy).

You can feed this in 2 meals of approx 325g each if you are feeding completely raw.

If you would like to feed half raw and half kibble, then feed 322g of raw in the AM and then a kibble meal in the PM (just feed the same as normal for one meal).

*6 month old male, unneutered english bull terrier of approx 11kg.* I googled it and it seems that 20-36 kg is the average weight for an adult and so I am assuming 30kg+ for an average male. As he is a growing pup, I would suggest starting with the full 3% of bodyweight and see how you go.

So, if you need to feed 3% of ideal adult body weight a day, thats 900g per day.

Im assuming he is on 2 meals now he is 6 months? So you can feed this in 2 meals of approx 450g each if you are feeding completely raw (or 3 x 300g meals if you are still feeding 3 meals a day).

If you would like to feed half raw and half kibble, then feed 450g of raw in the AM and then a kibble meal in the PM (just feed the same as normal for one meal). It is a little tricker if you want to feed 3 meals, as you would need to decide if you were going to feed 2 raw and one kibble or 1 raw and 2 kibble - let me know and I will work it out if you want to feed 3 meals...

*13 week old male, dogue de bordeux of approx 10kg* I googled it again and it seems that 54.4-65.2kg is the average weight for an adult and so I am assuming 60kg+ for an average male. As he is a very young growing pup and also quite large, you can actually start with 10% of current weight until he gets a bit bigger.

So that would be 10% of 10kg, per day which is 1kg. You would need to split this across 3-4 feeds per day, so feed approx 333g x 3 times or 250g x 4 times a day.

It is more important with pup to consider what he is currently on? As with a baby and one that has only just come to you recently, it is best to take it very slow...

Again if you plan to feed half kibble, then it will depend on how many meals you plan on feeding - so just let me know and I will work out the numbers.

Hope that helps! :thumbup:

Now you know the numbers, let me know of any other questions you want any help with


----------



## joanne79

Hi All,

My miniature poodle gets 3 meals of 80g per day. In the past when i've given him a chicken thigh or leg for his afternoon meal, he eats what he wants and then i put the rest in the fridge for the next afternoon. However, the last few days he's been eating the whole lot which weighs roughly 160g plus. What i'd like to know is, do I miss out his evening meal if he has basically eaten double of his normal 80g (hope that makes sense).

Joanne


----------



## ghengis

katiefranke said:


> Ok no probs, right lets go through one at a time:
> 
> *2yr old female, unneutered english bull terrier of approx 25kg - assuming receives average excercise amounts with walks etc*
> Recommended feeding amount is somewhere between 2-3% of body weight a day (or 14-21% per week) and with a healthy adult, its best to pick mid-way to start. So you need to feed 2.5% a day or 645g per day (lets round up to 650g to make it easy).
> 
> You can feed this in 2 meals of approx 325g each if you are feeding completely raw.
> 
> If you would like to feed half raw and half kibble, then feed 322g of raw in the AM and then a kibble meal in the PM (just feed the same as normal for one meal).
> 
> *6 month old male, unneutered english bull terrier of approx 11kg.* I googled it and it seems that 20-36 kg is the average weight for an adult and so I am assuming 30kg+ for an average male. As he is a growing pup, I would suggest starting with the full 3% of bodyweight and see how you go.
> 
> So, if you need to feed 3% of ideal adult body weight a day, thats 900g per day.
> 
> Im assuming he is on 2 meals now he is 6 months? So you can feed this in 2 meals of approx 450g each if you are feeding completely raw (or 3 x 300g meals if you are still feeding 3 meals a day).
> 
> If you would like to feed half raw and half kibble, then feed 450g of raw in the AM and then a kibble meal in the PM (just feed the same as normal for one meal). It is a little tricker if you want to feed 3 meals, as you would need to decide if you were going to feed 2 raw and one kibble or 1 raw and 2 kibble - let me know and I will work it out if you want to feed 3 meals...
> 
> *13 week old male, dogue de bordeux of approx 10kg* I googled it again and it seems that 54.4-65.2kg is the average weight for an adult and so I am assuming 60kg+ for an average male. As he is a very young growing pup and also quite large, you can actually start with 10% of current weight until he gets a bit bigger.
> 
> So that would be 10% of 10kg, per day which is 1kg. You would need to split this across 3-4 feeds per day, so feed approx 333g x 3 times or 250g x 4 times a day.
> 
> It is more important with pup to consider what he is currently on? As with a baby and one that has only just come to you recently, it is best to take it very slow...
> 
> Again if you plan to feed half kibble, then it will depend on how many meals you plan on feeding - so just let me know and I will work out the numbers.
> 
> Hope that helps! :thumbup:
> 
> Now you know the numbers, let me know of any other questions you want any help with


thank you that help me out alot im off shoping tomorrow so will get their food in


----------



## EBT

The numbers Katie has put up are near enough exactly what I feed my 2 EBTs (probably because I followed her guide!). They have been on the RMB diet for few months now. I have a 6yr old girl who gets a little less most days because she isn't overly active and has had weight issues in the past but is looking good now. My 1yr old (Nov 10th) boy gets 900g a day because I aimed at target weight of 30kg and he is very active. Also, the last thing I wanted to do was under feed him. He weighs about 26-27kg at the moment and looks handsome. Good luck with new diet, have you got a separate freezer? God send.


----------



## katiefranke

joanne79 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My miniature poodle gets 3 meals of 80g per day. In the past when i've given him a chicken thigh or leg for his afternoon meal, he eats what he wants and then i put the rest in the fridge for the next afternoon. However, the last few days he's been eating the whole lot which weighs roughly 160g plus. What i'd like to know is, do I miss out his evening meal if he has basically eaten double of his normal 80g (hope that makes sense).
> 
> Joanne


Hi Joanne, just replied to your email too 

I think this is really one of those things that is probably going to be a bit trial and error. It might be he is needing more food now and so he is eating more at the middle feed. Or perhaps you are doing more exercise in the day so he is hungrier when he gets this meal?

How old is he now? Is he about ready for his 2 meals a day? I think this is what I would do now, cut back to two...then you dont need to worry. You could feed his normal morning meal and then make his next meal a little later and a little later in the day until it is at the time you want it to be for his PM meal.

However, if you would like to feed three meals still, I would probably save something small for the evening meal, maybe a couple of slices of heart or something? An egg? A chunk of tripe?...whatever he is ok eating...so he feels like he has had three meals but you are not giving so much that he would end up getting plump!

Just keep an eye on his weight and see how he does - you shouldnt be able to overly see his ribs but should be able to feel them individually with your fingers if you lightly press them along his sides. If you think he is getting a little big, then cut back slightly...but as long as he isnt I would be tempted to just let him eat what he wants


----------



## delightfuldior

katiefranke said:


> Yep I think def stop cutting the bone.
> 
> It actually sounds like you might be feeding a bit too much bone. Maybe cut it back a bit on the bone and increase the meat a bit more...it is likely they just cannot digest the bone properly yet and you are feeding a little much for them at this stage so some of it is coming back up in their sick.
> 
> If it was massive lumps coming back up, then I would say its because they are swalling it whole - and its their way of regurgitating something they cannot digest - but they normally eat it!! lol
> 
> Make sure they go for a poop before they go to bed, then they really shouldnt be busting to go the next morning if you have fed their PM meal at 6pm as it should have gone through already...if you are feeding a little too much bone for them though it could be that it is taking a bit longer to go through and so thats why he needed to go early morning.
> 
> Are you feeding anything else other than raw meat/bone/offal at the mo? If you are feeding any commercial treats or kibble at any point, this could be holding up the other food so you might need to adjust when you feed what to get the timings right for them...


thanks for your reply, its greatly apprecaited.. if it wasnt for you guys I wouldnt have even considered the RMB so you helping me along is fab and thank you so much :thumbup:

Last night I gave them only one bone from the quarter and the rest was just meat.

My two tend to poop on the morning and evening walks and thats it. I encourage them to be outside as much as possible for fresh air dependant on the weather and its been a ritual of theirs to go toilet for wee or poop just before 'sleepies' 

I was advised to stick to chicken for the first couple of weeks then start introducing other meats and bones. I have ox liver at the ready, ox tail, lamb fleshy bones, pork ribs and lamb heart. Is heart a main meal or offal?? I have to be very carefull with the offal as they react with the runs. So tiny bits at a time.

On Thursday I got 15 large chicken quarters, 5 pork ribs, 6 lamb bones, 3 lamb hearts, ox tail for £10.13. Does this sounds reasonable to you? I have taken it all out of its packaging and put it in food bags in the freezer so today I only had to grab a chicken bag and defrost it for tonights dinner :thumbup:

I fed them their chicken quarters with the SF oil and a bit of microwaved spinach and they loved it. They normally eat greens anyhow so they didnt react.

I give them the odd dry biscuit and raw hide chew but thats it. This morning I gave them their lamb bone and they loved it! Joey is a wolfer and he dont take long to grind it down but Gemma takes an extra half hour!

One this I have noticed is their poop. It dont smell!!!!! unlike their beards :eek6: LOL


----------



## oveione

wow that is a really good price for all that food what a bargain:thumbup:


----------



## katiefranke

delightfuldior said:


> On Thursday I got 15 large chicken quarters, 5 pork ribs, 6 lamb bones, 3 lamb hearts, ox tail for £10.13. Does this sounds reasonable to you? I have taken it all out of its packaging and put it in food bags in the freezer so today I only had to grab a chicken bag and defrost it for tonights dinner :thumbup:


Yes that sounds very good value for all that! 

It is much easier once you get into it a bit isnt it? As you start buying more at a time and getting a bit organised etc and so you just have to grab a bag out of the freezer and defrost! 

Whilst heart is an organ, it is a muscle - so it can be fed as muscle meat as a meaty meal. It can be quite rich though (although nowhere near as bad as liver etc) so just start off with a smallish bit each first to see what they are like with it.

Just one quick question - why did you microwave the spinach?


----------



## delightfuldior

katiefranke said:


> Yes that sounds very good value for all that!
> 
> It is much easier once you get into it a bit isnt it? As you start buying more at a time and getting a bit organised etc and so you just have to grab a bag out of the freezer and defrost!
> 
> Whilst heart is an organ, it is a muscle - so it can be fed as muscle meat as a meaty meal. It can be quite rich though (although nowhere near as bad as liver etc) so just start off with a smallish bit each first to see what they are like with it.
> 
> Just one quick question - why did you microwave the spinach?


I buy the spinach frozen, it comes in balls or blocks and it was a last minute thing so I just popped it into the miscrowave for about 40 seconds to thaw it.

I got all the food from Morrisons, the lamb ones were only 30p and 40p here and there. pork ribs about 1.30 and quarters about 1.58 per tub. The heart and liver were cheap too. I am going to give them some chicken breast tonight (this is meant for my tea!!!!) with a bit of ox liver (like a 10p peice size) and a pork rib.


----------



## ghengis

EBT said:


> The numbers Katie has put up are near enough exactly what I feed my 2 EBTs (probably because I followed her guide!). They have been on the RMB diet for few months now. I have a 6yr old girl who gets a little less most days because she isn't overly active and has had weight issues in the past but is looking good now. My 1yr old (Nov 10th) boy gets 900g a day because I aimed at target weight of 30kg and he is very active. Also, the last thing I wanted to do was under feed him. He weighs about 26-27kg at the moment and looks handsome. Good luck with new diet, have you got a separate freezer? God send.


thank you thinki am going to need it though. as for a seperate freezer nope think the dogs dinners are taking over my own food too now just as well i dont eat much :lol:

i have made a right boo boo though went to pah yesterday without looking got a big bag of kibble thinking i wont have to go for a while god send, got home and pull out old bag had already opened new bag and started to pour it in to their bin, i look at the old bag and you can imagine the words that came out my mouth by this time the new bag was emptied so i just mixed what was left on top, i am hoping it wont effect them too much khan will be ok as he was on this before too, he seems to be really ok on james or wainwrights. im going to be making up some more rice again to start all over again i am so not amused with myself and have been kicking myself ever since:frown:


----------



## SlingDash

Well we fed some ribs at the weekend, and despite a few panic attacks (from me, mainly!), all is still well.

The OH is fine feeding bones, and simply chucks 'em down without a care in the world (almost...) . :scared:

Our big lad is starting to get a slight build-up of tartar on his teeth, and his knawing at the weekend has got rid of, I'd say, 90% of that.


----------



## katiefranke

SlingDash said:


> Well we fed some ribs at the weekend, and despite a few panic attacks (from me, mainly!), all is still well.
> 
> The OH is fine feeding bones, and simply chucks 'em down without a care in the world (almost...) . :scared:
> 
> Our big lad is starting to get a slight build-up of tartar on his teeth, and his knawing at the weekend has got rid of, I'd say, 90% of that.


Im impressed  well done, I know you have been really worried about the bones. Glad they did well with them.

Just to say, if you feed ribs, never feed individual ones to such large dogs, always feed in a slab of a few joined together (not saying you did, but just in case) - then you wont have any worries about them swallowing them awkwardly without crunching up, as they will be forced to crunch the bigger slab into pieces


----------



## MarKalAm

SlingDash said:


> Our big lad


What dog have you got?


----------



## carol

ive been using this place way way better food than landywoods.

have a read Natural Instinct - High Quality Natural Dog Food


----------



## SlingDash

It does look like great food, but most raw feeders here will claim it doesn't have any teeth cleaning benefits (too 'mushy'), and that there are a few extra ingredients in there (such as yeast and vegetables) that simply aren't needed.

We were going to try it, but it's simply far too expensive for what it is. It'd be much cheaper to feed your own raw diet made up from things from the supermarket, I'm sure.


----------



## ghengis

sorry have reread what u put for me and just seen what u had asked of me lol i am feeding him 4 meals a day still due to his bad start in life he looks really skinny but the vet said he is perfect weight to me he dont look it though is very drawn in around his tummy area i know he has no more worms as i wormed him again and had no worm poo:thumbup: so i am thinking he needs to be bulked up again from his bad start.

i think all the worms were taking all the nutrition that he was given and it was not all that good he is also quite active too think he thinks he is a bullie:lol:


----------



## katiefranke

ghengis said:


> sorry have reread what u put for me and just seen what u had asked of me lol i am feeding him 4 meals a day still due to his bad start in life he looks really skinny but the vet said he is perfect weight to me he dont look it though is very drawn in around his tummy area i know he has no more worms as i wormed him again and had no worm poo:thumbup: so i am thinking he needs to be bulked up again from his bad start.
> 
> i think all the worms were taking all the nutrition that he was given and it was not all that good he is also quite active too think he thinks he is a bullie:lol:


Do you mean for ghengis you baby pup?

If so then here are the numbers adjusted for 4 meals...

*13 week old male, dogue de bordeux of approx 10kg*
...so I am assuming 60kg+ for an average male. As he is a very young growing pup and also quite large, you can actually start with 10% of current weight until he gets a bit bigger.

So that would be 10% of 10kg, per day which is 1kg. You would need to split this across 4 feeds of 250g each. Or if you are feeding half kibble, do say 2 of kibble at the normal feed amount (as per the packet) and 2 x 250g raw meals.

250g is quite a nice weight, as it is approx an ave sized chicken quarter (i.e. wing & breast joined or leg & thigh joined)...etc.

With this way of feeding (sorry forgot to say this in the original post) you would need to keep an eye on his weight regularly so you can adjust the 10% of current weight as needed...as what you are doing is gradually increasing this amount until it reaches the 2-3% of adult weight, which would be 1.8kg or 1800g for a 60kg dog. So once pup reaches about 18kg, you will have reached the food allowance equal to 3% adult weight, so you can stop increasing it with his weight. (hope that makes sense!)

Back to one of your original questions, they should definitley be eating the bones - if they arent, then it could just be they are not quite used to them yet or that they need to build up their jaw strength...OR it could be that the bones are not appropriate sized for them (i.e. weight-bearing bones such as leg bones, esp those of cows, are usually too dense and can cause tooth chips so dont feed these).

What kind of things are you feeding?

Any other questions you wanted answering now we have your weights/amounts worked out?


----------



## ghengis

katiefranke said:


> Do you mean for ghengis you baby pup?
> 
> If so then here are the numbers adjusted for 4 meals...
> 
> *13 week old male, dogue de bordeux of approx 10kg*
> ...so I am assuming 60kg+ for an average male. As he is a very young growing pup and also quite large, you can actually start with 10% of current weight until he gets a bit bigger.
> 
> So that would be 10% of 10kg, per day which is 1kg. You would need to split this across 4 feeds of 250g each. Or if you are feeding half kibble, do say 2 of kibble at the normal feed amount (as per the packet) and 2 x 250g raw meals.
> 
> 250g is quite a nice weight, as it is approx an ave sized chicken quarter (i.e. wing & breast joined or leg & thigh joined)...etc.
> 
> With this way of feeding (sorry forgot to say this in the original post) you would need to keep an eye on his weight regularly so you can adjust the 10% of current weight as needed...as what you are doing is gradually increasing this amount until it reaches the 2-3% of adult weight, which would be 1.8kg or 1800g for a 60kg dog. So once pup reaches about 18kg, you will have reached the food allowance equal to 3% adult weight, so you can stop increasing it with his weight. (hope that makes sense!)
> this is going to make things easier for me
> Back to one of your original questions, they should definitley be eating the bones - if they arent, then it could just be they are not quite used to them yet or that they need to build up their jaw strength...OR it could be that the bones are not appropriate sized for them (i.e. weight-bearing bones such as leg bones, esp those of cows, are usually too dense and can cause tooth chips so dont feed these).
> 
> What kind of things are you feeding?
> 
> Any other questions you wanted answering now we have your weights/amounts worked out?


can u give pork as well as i have heard that pork can be bad :confused1:

today they have had steak and lambs hearts they also get chicken, mackeral sadines tuna mince and i have also managed to get some tripe from pah. they also have mixed veg and bananas.

i asked the butcher what kind of bones and i couldnt get a straight answer out of him going tomorrow for some as they had none left what kind of bones will be good for them then i will ask if i can get some if they have any in tomorrow.

is there anything else i could give em too??

i usually make a baked treat with liver for them too:thumbup:


----------



## katiefranke

You could see if you could get hold of wild rabbit - butchers often have this for a decent price and its very similar to chicken in that it has softer bones.

Pork is fine to feed from the UK, but just make sure it is human grade (so bought from supermarket, butcher etc) as then it will have been checked for tapeworm...

I always freeze my pork for around 3 weeks before feeding as this will kill parasites - you will want to do the same with rabbit, as it is wild it can carry parasites too, same goes for any wild game really.

If you could get friendly with a local hunter you could get all sorts of goodies!

Other things to think about introducing, slowly, would be muscly organs like tongue - you can feed these as the meat allowance rather than offal. They are very nutritious and usually quite cheap :thumbup:

Other good ones are spleen, pancreas and lungs...

A little bit of these rotated over time is a great variety for them and gives a the whole range of nutrients over time.

Oh and raw pigs tails or pigs trotters are usually quite liked by most dogs - they make a great dental workout and are quite nutritious too!


----------



## ghengis

cool i will now get a dog shopping list together for sat when i go do their shopping

i really do have to say a a really big thank you :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## katiefranke

he he, no probs :thumbsup:


----------



## Paws Dawson

Great write up and info 

We moved to raw about 5months ago and will never look back!


----------



## katiefranke

Paws Dawson said:


> Great write up and info
> 
> We moved to raw about 5months ago and will never look back!


Thank you  ...well Im hoping it is helpful as lots of people are asking questions etc.

We had so many questions that I thought that it would be good to have one place for it all to be stored.

What dogs have you got?


----------



## Paws Dawson

I have a 7yr old staffie pointer cross with an auto immune disease (and yes raw is fine for him)
And a 6 month old long coat german shepherd 

I bought a mincer because my lad cant be trusted to chew chicken bones properly, he tries to swallow them as whole as possible so main meals are minced together and frozen in meal portions and they get larger meaty bones to chew a couple of times a week


----------



## SlingDash

Ours 'wolf' down their bones like there's no tomorrow, so we'd like to get a mincer. What sort is it? One of those old-fashioned, crank handled things, or is it something a bit posher and electric?

As for those ribs we fed the other day, Katie, they were pretty huge. They were fresh from the butcher, and I'm sure the dogs were swallowing huge chunks of splintered rib cage, but still - there were no ill effects. Our Collie always takes her time, crunching things throughly and eating very gently, it's just the other two we worry about because they simply will not slow down, and they try to get everything down the hatch as quickly as they possibly can. 

The bones we now get from our farmer chum are even bigger, so I think we'll probably stick with those from now on. Would it be better to stick to pork or lamb ribs, as opposed to beef, do you think? Are they any 'safer' for any reason?


----------



## Sam1309

well been and done my 2nd big raw shop

got more tripe and some turkey necks and wings which he as never had before

trying to add in some more variety as atm everything seems to be chicken......





do the dog food company do a multipack of minces do u knwo as i'm not overly impressed with my local suppiers own minces, there either chicken or chicken and......


----------



## cinnamontoast

This is bugging me: I swear I saw a post on here with a link to comparing TDFC to another re price-where the heck did it go?!


----------



## Becca.

Can anyone help please.I have just started feeding my 11 month old Saint Bernard raw.Started her with chicken drumsticks and lamb necks which she loved.Ordered tripe,beef and lamb from DAF last week and she won,t touch itShe just wants meaty bones all the time.
I have already thrown lots of the meat away:frown:
She is driving me mad:lol::lol:


----------



## katiefranke

Paws Dawson said:


> I have a 7yr old staffie pointer cross with an auto immune disease (and yes raw is fine for him)
> And a 6 month old long coat german shepherd


Have you got any piccies on here of them yet? I always like to see piccies and have a nose 



slingdash said:


> Would it be better to stick to pork or lamb ribs, as opposed to beef, do you think? Are they any 'safer' for any reason?


I personally dont give beef bones as they are pretty dense. If you could get hold of neck this would be ok and ribs are alright for a big dog I would think but they are likely to only manage to knaw the ends off as opposed to eating the whole thing...

Whereas lamb and pork are a little softer and so 'safer' in that respect.



sam1309 said:


> do the dog food company do a multipack of minces do u knwo as i'm not overly impressed with my local suppiers own minces, there either chicken or chicken and......


 they do, i think a lamb one, tripe and beef...you can also get the rabbit minced if you ask...however, I dont buy the minces myself, so I havent asked what proportions etc are in them all, so you would need to check this.



cinammontoast said:


> This is bugging me: I swear I saw a post on here with a link to comparing TDFC to another re price-where the heck did it go?!


 yep markalam posted it here  - it compares the price of TDFC to NI: http://www.petforums.co.uk/1933103-post4.html


----------



## katiefranke

Becca. said:


> Can anyone help please.I have just started feeding my 11 month old Saint Bernard raw.Started her with chicken drumsticks and lamb necks which she loved.Ordered tripe,beef and lamb from DAF last week and she won,t touch itShe just wants meaty bones all the time.
> I have already thrown lots of the meat away:frown:
> She is driving me mad:lol::lol:


Hi Becca, welcome to raw feeding!! 

I am not sure on the DAF mince consistency - is it quite mushy? It could be perhaps she prefers the texture of whole meat?

If you really want her to eat it, I would suggest the tough love approach - putting it down for 20 mins, if she refuses to eat it, then take it up, cover it and put in the fridge. Then at her next meal time offer again...and repeat until she eats. I am sure when she is hungry she will eat it! 

Otherwise she will learn that if she holds out, she will get something better...

However, having said all that, I personally dont feed minces and dont really recommend them other than for starting out on raw or for very young pups. So if you can, feed her as much whole pieces as pos instead.

People usually have trouble the other way around where dogs will eat the mush but have issues with bones to begin with...


----------



## delightfuldior

I went to the butchers yesterday and ordered pancreas, lung and heart.. when I collected it it came all shoved in the same bag weighing in at about 6kg! I had to try and guess what organ was what and seperate it all into bags and freeze. It made me feel pretty ill! The smell was rank and actually put me off my chicken dinner lol 

I knew there was liver in there and heart but no idea about the other organ :confused1:

I have been feeding a pork or lamb rib in the morning, chicken and beef or chicken and pork or chicken and heart...

Their poo is very dry. so dry in fact it crumbles when I pick it up .... any suggestions to add a bit of moisture??? I already add sunflower oil

thanks


----------



## MarKalAm

I've done a very quick (prices are probably not exact but shouldn't be out by much) comparison of prices between the most popular raw suppliers online. Personally I have only ordered from Landywoods and The Dog Food Company, but I will give a few pointers going by their websites/price lists. If you have ordered from them feel free to add any other pros/cons. 

I've not included places like prize choice or natures menu, basically because I don't like them lol  Darlings does not have a price list, but it will be similar to NI, probably a bit more expensive.

*
10kg of Chicken mince from NI is £25
11kg of Chicken mince from TDFC is £8.25
10kg of Chicken mince from Landywoods is £7.92
10kg of Chicken mince from Berrie woods is £10.44
9kg of chicken mince from DAF is £7.92

10kg of Lamb mince from NI is £44
11kg of Lamb (and tripe) mince from TDFC is £8.75
10Kg of Lamb mince is from Landywoods £10.00
10kg of Lamb mince from Berriewoods is £9.90
9kg of Lamb mince from DAF is £7.92

10kg of Tripe (washed) from NI is £40
11kg of Tripe (green) from TDFC is £8.70
10kg of tripe (green) from Landywoods is £7.92 
10kg of Tripe (washed) from Berriwoods is £10.44
9kg of Tripe (green) from DAF is £7.38

14kg of Chicken carcasses from NI are £25
14kg of Chicken carcasses from TDFC are £7.50
14kg of Chicken carcasses/backs from Landywoods are £9.80
16kg of Chicken wings (they don't do carcaasses) from Berriewoods are £32.12
15kg of chicken carcasses from DAF are £18.24

Natural Instinct 
*Very pricey.
*'Complete' meals (if you want to feed veg). 
*They have increased their bone selection. 
*Minces did have to be ordered in 10kg, this may have changed now

The Dog Food Company 
*Great products, reasonable price.
*Can order as little as you like on the minces/bones.
*Selection could be better, but not all products are listed so ask.
*Can be a nightmare to get hold of.

Landywoods
*Good selection of minces, with offal/veg added.
*Not great quality (in my experience).
*Minces have to be ordered in 20lb trays (can mix, but only 2 varieties)

Berriewood
*Bone selection is poor.
*Minces must be ordered in 10kg boxes. (Can get a custom mix, costs a little more)
*Cheaper the more you order.

DAF Petfood
*Great selection of minces and bones (Some have said they often don't have them in stock though).
*Minces have to be ordered in 20lb boxes
*Cheaper the more you order.*

**Prices correct at time of posting**


----------



## SlingDash

> I would think but they are likely to only manage to knaw the ends off as opposed to eating the whole thing


Nope. They ate the whole things.

Perhaps they were from a younger animal, or the butcher was mistaken and they were actually lamb or pork ribs? They were certainly a lot smaller than the ribs we get from our farmer chum.

:confused1:


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## Becca.

katiefranke said:


> Hi Becca, welcome to raw feeding!!
> 
> I am not sure on the DAF mince consistency - is it quite mushy? It could be perhaps she prefers the texture of whole meat?
> 
> If you really want her to eat it, I would suggest the tough love approach - putting it down for 20 mins, if she refuses to eat it, then take it up, cover it and put in the fridge. Then at her next meal time offer again...and repeat until she eats. I am sure when she is hungry she will eat it!
> 
> Otherwise she will learn that if she holds out, she will get something better...
> 
> However, having said all that, I personally dont feed minces and dont really recommend them other than for starting out on raw or for very young pups. So if you can, feed her as much whole pieces as pos instead.
> 
> People usually have trouble the other way around where dogs will eat the mush but have issues with bones to begin with...


Thankyou,will give it a go


----------



## LouJ69

delightfuldior said:


> I went to the butchers yesterday and ordered pancreas, lung and heart.. when I collected it it came all shoved in the same bag weighing in at about 6kg! I had to try and guess what organ was what and seperate it all into bags and freeze. It made me feel pretty ill! The smell was rank and actually put me off my chicken dinner lol
> 
> I knew there was liver in there and heart but no idea about the other organ :confused1:
> 
> I have been feeding a pork or lamb rib in the morning, chicken and beef or chicken and pork or chicken and heart...
> 
> Their poo is very dry. so dry in fact it crumbles when I pick it up .... any suggestions to add a bit of moisture??? I already add sunflower oil
> 
> thanks


The fact that their poo is dry & crumbly sounds like they are getting too much bone in their diet as bone usually makes their poo really dry. Perhaps just reduce the amount of bone you give them & it should make a difference.
Lol, talking about the smell of the meat-I get dog mince from my local butchers & it has all heart etc minced into it, but ugh-the smell of it is rotten! It smells like something dead (which I know it is, but it's not supposed to smell like that!lol) But hey, who am I to judge-the dogs love it! lol


----------



## katiefranke

delightfuldior said:


> Their poo is very dry. so dry in fact it crumbles when I pick it up .... any suggestions to add a bit of moisture??? I already add sunflower oil
> 
> thanks


as LouJ69 said, it sounds like a bit too much bone still...newbies often do well on extra bone as it helps keep them firm initially...but listen to your dogs and adjust accordingly...

In their case it sounds like you dont need to add oil etc or anything else to get moisture in - you just need to decrease the bone content and increase the meat content.

I feed a meat meal in the AM and a bone-in meal once per day in the PM if it is something meaty like a thigh & leg quarter. However, if it is something bonier like pork/lamb ribs then I would skip a bone meal.

A cheap way to add a meaty meal is something like tripe or heart if you dont want to spend as much on buying hunks of meat. Otherwise I find something like beef brisket (can usually be found relatively cheap if on offer) or pork shoulder steaks etc...


----------



## katiefranke

MarKalAm said:


> I've done a very quick (prices are probably not exact but shouldn't be out by much) comparison of prices between the most popular raw suppliers online.


Great list MarKalAm - thats really useful - people should find that pretty handy :thumbup:

Perhaps you might like to post this as a new thread of its own too so people see it who dont come in here?


----------



## Paws Dawson

Just made a new batch for my 2 tonight. My friend and I have a drinks and mincing night once or twice a month :biggrin:

Dogs freezer all full again.









We have Michigans drawer of meals at the top, then Keevas, then spare batches of 'add ons' i may want to add to dinners single portions of liver, heart, etc and bags of minced carrot, apple etc and some chicken carcases, then the bottom drawer is larger meaty bones (and fish food lol)



















Made 68meals plus we got about 30 chicken carcases and 6meaty bones and still have some heart and liver left over for next time. All for £38 which is at the expensive end for us because I got the chicken form the supermarket rather than a bulk buy from the butchers this time.

Meals this time were Beef,pork and apple. Chicken and heart. Chicken and liver. Chicken and Carrott. Chicken and squash. Chicken Squash and garlic. Chicken and Chicken livers/offal.

They also get probiotic natural yoghurt, eggs, banana, pear, oranges, sardines and meaty bones

On averge meals work out approx 50p each so £1 a day per dog if i buy from the supermarket. If i get a bulk load from the catering butchers they cost about 30p per meal.

When i was buying dry food i was spending about 80p per day on Michigan.

I had to make this pic black and white because it came out all dark on my phone setting to stop their eyes shining but this is them watching the process hoping for scraps


----------



## LouJ69

Paws Dawson said:


> Just made a new batch for my 2 tonight. My friend and I have a drinks and mincing night once or twice a month :biggrin:
> 
> Dogs freezer all full again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have Michigans drawer of meals at the top, then Keevas, then spare batches of 'add ons' i may want to add to dinners single portions of liver, heart, etc and bags of minced carrot, apple etc and some chicken carcases, then the bottom drawer is larger meaty bones (and fish food lol)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Made 68meals plus we got about 30 chicken carcases and 6meaty bones and still have some heart and liver left over for next time. All for £38 which is at the expensive end for us because I got the chicken form the supermarket rather than a bulk buy from the butchers this time.
> 
> Meals this time were Beef,pork and apple. Chicken and heart. Chicken and liver. Chicken and Carrott. Chicken and squash. Chicken Squash and garlic. Chicken and Chicken livers/offal.
> 
> They also get probiotic natural yoghurt, eggs, banana, pear, oranges, sardines and meaty bones
> 
> On averge meals work out approx 50p each so £1 a day per dog if i buy from the supermarket. If i get a bulk load from the catering butchers they cost about 30p per meal.
> 
> When i was buying dry food i was spending about 80p per day on Michigan.
> 
> I had to make this pic black and white because it came out all dark on my phone setting to stop their eyes shining but this is them watching the process hoping for scraps


£38?! 
That's so cheap compared to Ireland! I haven't done a monthly supply yet coz I have to get a chest freezer first, but I'm probably spending about 20 per week or so.
Love the picture-my dogs are exactly the same-they sit hoping that I'll drop something that they can grab! lol


----------



## hobbs2004

MarKalAm said:


> I've done a very quick (prices are probably not exact but shouldn't be out by much) comparison of prices between the most popular raw suppliers online. Personally I have only ordered from Landywoods and The Dog Food Company, but I will give a few pointers going by their websites/price lists. If you have ordered from them feel free to add any other pros/cons.
> 
> I've not included places like prize choice or natures menu, basically because I don't like them lol  Darlings does not have a price list, but it will be similar to NI, probably a bit more expensive.
> 
> *
> 10kg of Chicken mince from NI is £32
> 11kg of Chicken mince from TDFC is £8.25
> 10kg of Chicken mince from Landywoods is £7.92
> 10kg of Chicken mince from Berrie woods is £10.44
> 9kg of chicken mince from DAF is £7.92
> 
> 10kg of Lamb mince from NI is £52
> 11kg of Lamb (and tripe) mince from TDFC is £8.75
> 10Kg of Lamb mince is from Landywoods £10.00
> 10kg of Lamb mince from Berriewoods is £9.90
> 9kg of Lamb mince from DAF is £7.92
> 
> 10kg of Tripe from NI is £47
> 11kg of Tripe from TDFC is £8.70
> 10kg of tripe (beef) from Landywoods is £7.92
> 10kg of Tripe from Berriwoods is £10.44
> 9kg of tripe from DAF is £7.38
> 
> 14kg of Chicken carcasses from NI are £47
> 14kg of Chicken carcasses from TDFC are £7.50
> 14kg of Chicken carcasses/backs from Landywoods are £9.80
> 16kg of Chicken wings (they don't do carcaasses) from Berriewoods are £32.12
> 15kg of chicken carcasses from DAF are £18.24
> 
> Natural Instinct
> *Very pricey, but products seem good.
> *They have increased their bone selection.
> *Minces must be ordered in 10kg boxes.
> 
> The Dog Food Company
> *Great products, reasonable price.
> *Can order as little as you like on the minces/bones.
> *Selection could be better, but not all products are listed so ask.
> *Can be a nightmare to get hold of.
> 
> Landywoods
> *Good selection of minces, with offal/veg added.
> *Not great quality (in my experience).
> *Minces have to be ordered in 35lb trays (can mix, but only 2 varieties)
> 
> Berriewood
> *Bone selection is poor.
> *Minces must be ordered in 10kg boxes. (Can get a custom mix, costs a little more)
> *Cheaper the more you order.
> 
> DAF Petfood
> *Great selection of minces and bones (Some have said they often don't have them in stock though).
> *Minces have to be ordered in 20lb boxes
> *Cheaper the more you order.*


NI just changed their website and their prices too by the looks of it. All a wee bit cheaper than what you quote here.


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## MarKalAm

hobbs2004 said:


> NI just changed their website and their prices too by the looks of it. All a wee bit cheaper than what you quote here.


Ah I'll just edit in **Prices correct at time of posting** because places prices will change from time to time.

Will calculate NIs new prices and edit that in first though.

Thanks.


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## Paws Dawson

Sorry slightly off topic but heres one in daylight for you that i took today


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## delightfuldior

katiefranke said:


> as LouJ69 said, it sounds like a bit too much bone still...newbies often do well on extra bone as it helps keep them firm initially...but listen to your dogs and adjust accordingly...
> 
> In their case it sounds like you dont need to add oil etc or anything else to get moisture in - you just need to decrease the bone content and increase the meat content.
> 
> I feed a meat meal in the AM and a bone-in meal once per day in the PM if it is something meaty like a thigh & leg quarter. However, if it is something bonier like pork/lamb ribs then I would skip a bone meal.
> 
> A cheap way to add a meaty meal is something like tripe or heart if you dont want to spend as much on buying hunks of meat. Otherwise I find something like beef brisket (can usually be found relatively cheap if on offer) or pork shoulder steaks etc...


I think I may be doing all this wrong 

I've been buying chicken quarters for the dogs as its cheaper thank breast and only giving them one of the bones out of the quarter. I worked it out that my boy Joey should get 200g a day and Gemma 162g per day.. I've weighed up the chicken quarters and both come to about 200g... but if I gave them this is simply isnt enough :confused1: When I put it into their bowls its gone is 20 seconds and I know they are hungry afterwards.

Maybe I should give chicken breast to fill them up more..

Also, If I am giving them a lamb rib or pork rib.. is this counted in their daily allowance of 200 and 162g? durely not because the ribs can weigh more than this :confused1:

I'm acting a bit clueless tbh, I've not got the hang of it yet.

thanks


----------



## katiefranke

Paws Dawson said:


> Sorry slightly off topic but heres one in daylight for you that i took today


Thats a great idea, having a night with friends where you bag up portions and have a drink at the same time!! lol :thumbup:

Lovely piccie - gorgeous doggies!


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## katiefranke

delightfuldior said:


> I'm acting a bit clueless tbh, I've not got the hang of it yet.


Dont worry, its all a bit trial and error - little breeds have a faster metabolism so often need more than the 2-3%, sometimes as much as 5%!!

So if you feel this isnt enough for them, then increase the amount and see how they do.

Anything you give in the way of bone, meat and offal will count towards their daily allowance...

I havent looked back through our posts, but from the allowances you are feeding, are your dogs 8kg and 6.5 kg and you were feeding 2.5% at the mo?

If so, then why not up it to 3.5% or even 4% for the mo and see how they seem?

So 320g @ 4% of 8kg and 260g @ 4% of 6.5kg...


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## delightfuldior

Well . . . I just bathed and groomed my two today and Gemma the smallest has really filled out! Maybe I should keep the amount as it is. I need to invest in a cleaver coz the lamb bones are huge. They Shouldnt really be getting one each. Today they had sweet pot and brocolli with chicken, Pork and a bit of heart


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## katiefranke

delightfuldior said:


> Well . . . I just bathed and groomed my two today and Gemma the smallest has really filled out!


ahh, bless! well maybe keep it as it is for now 

remember you dont have to cut everything up, you can just put it down for one meal and then put it in the fridge and give it back again for the next meal and so on...you should be able to keep most things for 2-3 days in the fridge.

of course, depends quite how big the bones are!!


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## stick

hi i have spent the past couple of hours browsing around this thread and the various links away from it. (havent read all of it though so am sorry if this has been covered) ...i have been feeding my dogs kibble with some meat thrown in, usually lambs liver or lamb mince as there is always plenty of both in the reduced section at my local supermarket. 

the information has been enough for me to know where to go with regard to feeding full raw now but i am concerned, like many, about the bones. having never had bones in their lives, my dogs are gulpers and i am worried about them gulping down bones without crunching them up properly. 

other than holding the bone while they eat it, is there anything i can do to slow them down? 

i have 2 patterdale terriers and a bullmastiff. my patterdale bitch i can see being steady, but the male i see walking straight into disaster and the bully girl isnt much better!

am quite amused by the contrast though as the bullmastiff is only a small girl and will be eating a kilo a day as opposed to the patterdales which will only be requiring 150g. and i am looking at getting a couple more bullmastiffs in the coming 6 months.... this could get expensive! haha


----------



## 300roses

Hi, my gal is a gulper too. In fact, I hold all the bones she eat, as I'm afraid of her gobbling up the bones without crunching enough. There are a few occasions where she swallowed too fast without crunching properly and threw up the contents afterwards. It did freaked me out.

As much as I wish to let her eat the bones on her own, I couldnt bring myself to do so, as I'm concerned about choking if she eats too fast, so I have decided I will just hold the bones for her to set my mind at ease and at the same time, she will still get to enjoy her bones. I believe in feeding in the manner which I feed most comfortable with. 

I do notice that when she eats bigger meaty bones like a chicken drumstick or a big lamb rack, she takes more time to tear up the meat and crunch up the bone, as compared to smaller pieces like chicken wings. To slow her down, I will usually try to give her bigger pieces.


----------



## luvmydogs

stick said:


> other than holding the bone while they eat it, is there anything i can do to slow them down?


I have fed Bullmastiffs raw with no problems. There's a video of one of my Bullys on page 29 here. My rule of thumb with gulpers is to try and feed portions bigger than the dog's head. No way can they gulp that size down all at once!


----------



## katiefranke

stick said:


> having never had bones in their lives, my dogs are gulpers and i am worried about them gulping down bones without crunching them up properly.


Hi stick, as the others have said, its all about finding something you are comfortable with and making sure the pieces given are massive is the easiest way 

You can then just take it away when they have had enough/their allowance, wrap up and pop in the fridge until the next meal.

Alternatively hold and hand feed to begin with.

I hand fed to begin as I too was worried, however, after a little while and the initial excitement/novelty wears off, most dogs will calm down.

If you find that they dont, then feed larger pieces, like a big slab of ribs joined together, a whole chicken carcass, a whole rabbit/grouse/pheasant etc, a half a chicken...even something like a half a sheep or pigs head if you are not too squeamish!! 

Ask away with any other questions - Im sure there will be others along also to give suggestions of what they do too


----------



## stick

i think i will hand feed to be honest, at least to begin with anyway, as even with a large slab of ribs she is more than capable of crunching off big shards. 

as you say its something they, and us owners, get used to. 

i am not squeamish at all regarding meat and butchery, so i will try grab a head if i can get hold of one. luckily i have a spare fridge/freezer so the dogs can have that


----------



## luvmydogs

Yeah they sometimes crunch off big shards, puke them up then eat them again lol.


----------



## lucybichon

Hi everyone, I'm new to these forums (just signed up today) but I've been reading through this thread about raw feeding for the last few days as it's something I've been thinking about for my 3 yr old bichon frise. 

We've had her since she was 11 months old and from day one we've been in and out of the vets every month or so....we're on first name terms with the vet now!! When she came to us she had an ear and eye infection and was licking and chewing her paws so we were given eye and ear drops and fuciderm gel for her feet. The eye infection cleared up and has never been back since.....the ear infection cleared up but she did have another one (think it was about 12 months later).....however she has never stopped licking and chewing her feet! She has very pink skin and is generally an itchy dog. The vet thinks she has allergies but hasn't done any testing and put her on Piriton about 5 months ago, which to be honest hasn't really helped but she insists we keep going with it. My poor little doggy has also had 2 anal gland infections which required flushing and packing with anti-biotics under sedation after failed courses of antibiotics and steroids. And most recently she was found to have a large number of struvite crystals in her urine and so she has been on a special royal canin prescription diet to dissolve the crystals for the last 8 weeks. Thankfully this has worked and I can now gradually wean her off this royal canin food, but instead of her going back on burns dry food I was wanting to start her on a raw diet. I asked the vet what she thought of this and she said that only large dogs do well on raw diets and toy breeds usually get stomach upsets from it. Didn't really know how to take this and so I thought I'd ask your opinions on here! Really sorry for the long post  but thought I'd be better explaining my girl's history so you know her background and can then possibly advise if you think a raw diet could help her. Really am feeling stressed that we haven't managed to get her sorted after 2 years and I'm beginning to feel that vet is just stringing us along to get a monthly visit off us and make more money (probably not the case, but it's making me feel that way now!) Just want to do the best for her and not see her suffer any more.

Anyway, sorry again for the long post!!! I look forward to reading your replies!

Thanks!


----------



## katiefranke

lucybichon said:


> Hi everyone, I'm new to these forums (just signed up today) but I've been reading through this thread about raw feeding for the last few days as it's something I've been thinking about for my 3 yr old bichon frise.


Hi lucybichon! welcome to the forum  thats ok for the long post, dont apologise, thats what we are all here for!

I literally just logged on very quick to check my messages but didnt want to read and run, but havent got time to fully reply now, so will come back to you tomorrow when I have a little bit of time!

But just for starters, its not true at all that only big dogs do well on a raw diet...so scrap that myth for starters  There are loads of people on here with little dogs who feed them raw, and Im sure they will be along soon to discuss their experiences.

I will look back over my notes and research to give you a bit more info on any modifications necessary for the struvite crystal issue...

Personally, I would say that a raw diet would be a great start to help with the issues (ear, eye, skin, anal gland infections etc), but I immediately wonder about the amount of different drugs etc that she has been given and feel this could be contributing to the never ending cycle as well, as ive been there done that!!

Anyway, I said this would be a short post, lol!! so catch up with you tomorrow.


----------



## stick

struvite modifications are of interest to me too, shall keep a close eye for that


----------



## delightfuldior

katiefranke said:


> ahh, bless! well maybe keep it as it is for now
> 
> remember you dont have to cut everything up, you can just put it down for one meal and then put it in the fridge and give it back again for the next meal and so on...you should be able to keep most things for 2-3 days in the fridge.
> 
> of course, depends quite how big the bones are!!


once the meal is down its gone, my two never leave anything in the bowl!!! 

I bought some lamb and pork ribs yesterday and had to cut the lamb ones in halve, they weigh more than their daily allowance and this simply is not enough to feed them. I stuck to the 200g for joey and 162g for gemma and packed the chicken and heart out with apple and carrot and they looked at me after as if to say :eek6: is that it mum???? I felt terrible!!

tonight they are getting chicken on bone, beef and some offal plus the carrot and apple again and I may throw in a teeny weeny pork rib in too for a treat (they are only two inches long)

I gave them a couple of fish4dogs skin sticks and some bio natural yogurt to try and fill them but they still were hanging about the kitchen smelling about their matts  maybe I should bump it up a tad more.

x


----------



## lucybichon

> Hi lucybichon! welcome to the forum thats ok for the long post, dont apologise, thats what we are all here for!


Hi Katie, thanks for your quick reply, I really appreciate any help/advice I can get! We were back at the vets again last week as she was scooting and biting her tail again, the vet emptied her anal glands and said it didn't look infected and just to carry on with the Piriton for now and if she shows no signs of improvement then she will discuss a medication called Atopica. Really don't want to keep pumping her with different drugs all the time though, it can't be doing her any good. So I'm hoping raw feeding is the way to go!!

I had a lovely chat with one of the owners at Natural Instinct this morning and he was really helpful. He didn't try and push his products on me at all (which is what I was expecting!) but I think I may start off with them for a while so she can get used to the raw feeding and so I can make sure I'm clued up on everything before I start preparing my own. Really don't feel confident enough that I would be giving her all the correct nutritional requirements to start off with. Anyway, I discussed all the problems my dog has had/is having and the guy at Natural Instinct said it sounds very much like a yeast infection caused by an imbalance of bacteria in the gut. He advised me to buy some chicken or turkey mince from the supermarket and feed her just that for 4 to 5 days and nothing else, no vegetables or fruit even, to make sure that all sugars are eliminated from her diet as the yeast feed off sugars. He said I should hopefully start to see an improvement and then if she does ok on that I can start to introduce other things in so she's on a full and varied raw diet.

I'm hoping this will work.....keeping my fingers crossed! Just been reading up all about it on the internet and it does all seem to make sense. I have read though that adding a probiotic to her food would help balance the good/bad bacteria out again in her digestive system - does anyone know if there are special doggy ones that you can buy, or could I simply just add a spoonful of natural live yogurt to her food?

Thanks again for your help so far!


----------



## cinnamontoast

lucybichon said:


> So I'm hoping raw feeding is the way to go!!


Do it, do it, do it! Start with chicken meat then move onto meaty bones: you have to read this whole thread-it's so useful. The Dog Food Company are the ones I'm going to use, although currently I'm coping at the supermarket/local butcher.

It's the natural thing to do. I don't feed anything but pure meat/bones/offal. It's bizarre watching them eat entire bones but I bet your dog will be so much better. I've got an adult springer and two young pups on raw meat and bones-ruddy marvellous!

Katie knows everything-ask her! She's been a huge help to me getting started.


----------



## katiefranke

lucybichon said:


> Anyway, I discussed all the problems my dog has had/is having and the guy at Natural Instinct said it sounds very much like a yeast infection caused by an imbalance of bacteria in the gut. He advised me to buy some chicken or turkey mince from the supermarket and feed her just that for 4 to 5 days and nothing else, *no vegetables or fruit even, to make sure that all sugars are eliminated from her diet as the yeast feed off sugars*. He said I should hopefully start to see an improvement and then if she does ok on that I can start to introduce other things in so she's on a full and varied raw diet.


It is definitely one of the possibilities...however, there is a very key piece of advice here which you need to think about as highlighted in bold above and is another reason I do not feed any fruit or veg and instead ensure that I give as varied a meat/offal/bone diet as pos.  It is any carbs that cause this - and that can be grains OR fruit/veg, so all should be eliminated from a dogs diet as they are not necessary...NI contain fruit & veg in all of their formulations marketed as a full diet. Those that dont are not the correct proportions so you would be better off to put everything together yourself...have a good read through my original posts in this thread again and some of the links - hundreds of thousands of people are feeding raw around the world to their animals and its really easy once you get into it...remember you dont have to give the full variety right from the start - it is all about *balance over time* 

*STRUVITE CRYSTALS:*
Ok guys, re struvite crystals - I have been doing some reading up.

From what I can tell, struvite crystals seem to be caused by urinary tract infections. So basically bacteria in the urine causes the urine to become alkaline (high pH) which creates the perfect environment for struvite crystals to develop.

Usually it is treated by antibiotics, but a specific urinalysis needs to be done to work out what type of antibiotic is needed and the urine is retested after the course to ensure it has gone...once the infection is gone, the urine returns to a normal acidic pH and the problem is resolved.

So it is not directly affected by diet and you dont have to worry about modifying a raw diet to suit...

However, having said this, a move away from kibble to high moisture content food (raw food is packed with moisture) is often helpful, as *struvite prevention requires having water available constantly and a high moisture content diet to help flush the crystals and keep your dog hydrated*

So basically, there is nothing in particular you have to feed/not feed with a dog who has had struvite crystals, but a raw diet could definitely help with its high moisture content. On top of this, a species appropriate diet is THE key building block of good health and a healthy immune system...if you can increase good health, your dogs are less likely to be afflicted by these kinds of things...but that does also mean being careful with the amount of drugs and chemicals used, as each one is an assault on their immune system  lucybichon, if you would like more info on this and what I have been through with mags, then I am happy to discuss, but prob best in PM rather than on this thread or it might get a bit long and side-track those coming looking for raw feeding tips 

Hope that helps!


----------



## hobbs2004

katiefranke said:


> *STRUVITE CRYSTALS:*
> Ok guys, re struvite crystals - I have been doing some reading up.
> 
> From what I can tell, struvite crystals seem to be caused by urinary tract infections. So basically bacteria in the urine causes the urine to become alkaline (high pH) which creates the perfect environment for struvite crystals to develop.
> 
> Usually it is treated by antibiotics, but a specific urinalysis needs to be done to work out what type of antibiotic is needed and the urine is retested after the course to ensure it has gone...once the infection is gone, the urine returns to a normal acidic pH and the problem is resolved.
> 
> So it is not directly affected by diet and you dont have to worry about modifying a raw diet to suit...
> 
> However, having said this, a move away from kibble to high moisture content food (raw food is packed with moisture) is often helpful, as *struvite prevention requires having water available constantly and a high moisture content diet to help flush the crystals and keep your dog hydrated*
> 
> So basically, there is nothing in particular you have to feed/not feed with a dog who has had struvite crystals, but a raw diet could definitely help with its high moisture content. On top of this, a species appropriate diet is THE key building block of good health and a healthy immune system...if you can increase good health, your dogs are less likely to be afflicted by these kinds of things...but that does also mean being careful with the amount of drugs and chemicals used, as each one is an assault on their immune system  lucybichon, if you would like more info on this and what I have been through with mags, then I am happy to discuss, but prob best in PM rather than on this thread or it might get a bit long and side-track those coming looking for raw feeding tips
> 
> Hope that helps!


Struvite crystals ARE affected by diet. At least in cats, a raw diet is often a great diet to address struvite crystals as a raw diet makes the urine more acidic. As Katie said, struvite crystals are formed in a urine that is leaning towards the alcaline environment. Incidentally, carbs (often found in dog and cat kibble) create an alcaline environment.

Also, as Katie said, moisture is needed to flush out those crystals, so feeding a dry diet is counterproductive (unless you are feeding dry food that has been specially formulated), another bonus of raw food.

May also be worthwhile investing some ph strips so that you can measure the urine ph at home.

Edited: Katie, we didn't actually disagree, just looked at it from different perspectives, deriving the same conclusion lol


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## katiefranke

hobbs2004 said:


> As Katie said, struvite crystals are formed in a urine that is leaning towards the alcaline environment. Incidentally, carbs (often found in dog and cat kibble) create an alcaline environment.


Well you know I was actually going to put this but wanted to find some 'evidence' to back this up - but everything I could find implied that the diet affects the acidity of the digestive tract but not specifically the urinary tract...??  And one of the papers I found said that the bacteria can still get a hold in an unwell patient and start reducing the acidity regardless of diet. hhhmmmm ... I know the other types of crystals do appear to be directly affected by diet, although I think there is a 'prescription diet' around for this...

*So I guess what we should be saying is that it might not prevent it completely perhaps, but can help a great deal to restore the acidic balance??*

And yes I completely agree re the raw diet increasing stomach and intestinal acidty (which is exactly what you want in a dog or cat) and another reason I dont feed any carbs (grain or veg/fruit) as like you said it reduces the acidity, which cant be good as its not natural.

...but of course, I do personally think that a raw diet can be given in any situation/with any health issue with the right tweaks and be beneficial over anything else that could be given...so I am slightly biased


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## stick

i guess you dont get wolves with struvites! lol

my bitch had a urinalysis done, and there were no signs of infection (according to the vet), so it is not always that. it can work the other way, the alkaline conditions are there, as are the crystals, irritating the bladder wall and encouraging infection. 

reason i say (according to the vet) is that on reading i found that the alkalinity is nearly ALWAYS caused by infection. and the vet strongly tried to push the prescription diet on me. then when i took a few days to think and read. i told her i thought my girl hadnt been drinking enough water, so i was going to try to flush her out with water water water. plus the antibiotics had started working. they then rang me EVERY DAY for 2 weeks asking when i was going to take the prescription food. and when i stopped answering the calls, they left me messages asking stroppily to call them.

needless to say, i am now changing vet!


also, the bully had a nice heap of reduced stewing steak tonight. held onto this to get her used to mouthing the meat a bit before she gets onto bones.


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## lucybichon

Thanks Katie, I've PM'd you.


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## lucybichon

Does anyone on here have little doggies who are fed a raw diet? I'd love to hear how you started off and your experience of it so far. 

Thanks


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## Nicky10

I don't have a toy breed Buster's not huge though. I know people that chihuahuas and papillons among others raw and they do perfectly well on it. They can't handle some of the bigger bones that the larger breeds can but give them chicken, game hens, rabbit, lamb that kind of thing and they should do fine.


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## katiefranke

lucybichon said:


> Does anyone on here have little doggies who are fed a raw diet? I'd love to hear how you started off and your experience of it so far.
> 
> Thanks


Sorry forgot to say too that I feed both my cats raw and they weigh around 4kg each - they devour whole chicken quarters and have a go at whole rabbits and all sorts! 

Its all about appropriate sized pieces - generally on the large side is good to encourage crunching and not gulping!


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## katiefranke

stick said:


> needless to say, i am now changing vet!
> 
> also, the bully had a nice heap of reduced stewing steak tonight. held onto this to get her used to mouthing the meat a bit before she gets onto bones.


good for you for declining the prescription diets! terrible stuff!

good idea about allowing her to mouth the meat before trying bones  they do have to get used to the consistency a bit.


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## samsmummy

lucybichon said:


> Does anyone on here have little doggies who are fed a raw diet? I'd love to hear how you started off and your experience of it so far.
> 
> Thanks


Hi lucybichon - it is important to research the BARF diet. There are two schools of thought: one which believes that dogs only need meat and bones, as katie clearly does, and the other believes that dogs require fruit and vegetables as an important part of the diet. I feel very strongly that in the wild the dogs eat the stomach of their prey and therefore ingest vegetable matter. To be honest even as I write this I know that there will be messages disagreeing with me and some agreeing, so it is important to reach your own conclusions about which way you want to go. Each school of thought vehemently believes they are right and sometimes show little respect for different opinions. I think you are doing the right thing by looking to feed raw. Trust me when I say it doesn't have to be complicated or so controversial. Good luck.


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## princesssaskia

lucybichon said:


> I have read though that adding a probiotic to her food would help balance the good/bad bacteria out again in her digestive system - does anyone know if there are special doggy ones that you can buy, or could I simply just add a spoonful of natural live yogurt to her food?
> 
> Thanks again for your help so far!


hiya, just caught up with your post, hope your little doggy feeling better. You can safely give human probiotics to your little dog, but generally I prefer adding a couple of spoonfuls of bio live organic yoghurt to their food each week. This is really important especially following a course of antibiotics in order to re-balance bacteria in the gut

I felt really sad reading your original post, as i always do when i read of any poor dog and their owner stuck in the cycle of itchy scratchy skin etc and drugs drugs drugs. I am VERY passionate about homeopathy and one of our key concerns is the long term health damage caused by the suppression of skin conditions. Vets are always focused on giving antibiotics and steroids to reduce inflammation etc but what they are really doing is pushing the 'disease' back into the body. Homeopaths believe that this leads to other health probs in the future. Its true that a healthy raw diet (as katie says) is the building block for having a healthy disease fee dog (and human or cat for that matter!) but sometimes there are underlying health issues that need to be corrected, especially if a dog has endured long courses of a variety of drugs and/or excessive vaccinations. I would strongly recommend finding a good homeopathic vet and having a consultation with your little dog. I began using homeopathic remedies on my dogs and myself a few years ago with AMAZING results, my dogs skin is perfect now and i dont ever have to worm or flea them with chemicals and I dont vaccinate anymore either (there are herbal and homeopathic alternatives that are very effective and are based on your animal having a raw healthy diet which means its strong enough not to catch most stuff in the first place and to deal with anything it does catch). In fact I was so impressed I have now gone back to university to do a 2nd degree in homeopathy so I can help others in the future!

Remember, most vets not only try to push manufactured food and prescription diets on everybody but they have managed to brainwash most of the population into believing that vaccinations are the only way to prevent your animal being ill and that you are cruel or stupid for not giving them annual boosters. In fact a healthy body will not get ill, if you concentrate on balancing the body, correcting hereditary tendencies and maintaining a healthy constant then you will minimise any risk of your dog becoming ill. Vaccinations can often do much more harm than good - read up on it and you will be surprised! (sorry if gone off topic a little - just very passionate about this xxx)


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## katiefranke

samsmummy said:


> Hi lucybichon - it is important to research the BARF diet. There are two schools of thought: one which believes that dogs only need meat and bones, as katie clearly does, and the other believes that dogs require fruit and vegetables as an important part of the diet. I feel very strongly that in the wild the dogs eat the stomach of their prey and therefore ingest vegetable matter. To be honest even as I write this I know that there will be messages disagreeing with me and some agreeing, so it is important to reach your own conclusions about which way you want to go. Each school of thought vehemently believes they are right and sometimes show little respect for different opinions. I think you are doing the right thing by looking to feed raw. Trust me when I say it doesn't have to be complicated or so controversial. Good luck.


I must just make one thing clear for others reading this that might take your statement literally...I have never said that dogs only need 'meat and bones' and would not recommend this. They need a large variety of animal proteins in the form of muscle meat/poultry/fish, organs/offal and bones.

However, as I think you are meaning, yes I personally do not feed my dogs veg/fruit and do not think they need it and this is my right to make this decision as it is yours to decide to feed these items. I would stress that my decision on this has not been decided upon lightly and is based on many months of research (which is still ongoing) on canine and feline anatomy/physiology/nutrition, and experience of what suits my animals - as I have said all along, I think people need to research it all themselves and come to the point where they are comfortable in what they want to do and then tailor it to suit the individual needs of their dogs and cats.

In this particular instance with 'lucybichon' though, you will see that the makers of Natural Instinct (who add fruit/veg to all their 'complete' diet mixes) have even advised no fruit and veg at least initially due to the health issues - this is something that must be considered carefully when dealing with a yeast infection regardless of your thoughts on whether to feed fruit & veg in a general raw diet. Every dog is different and the beauty of a raw diet is that it can be modified to suit any health condition, life stage etc.

As to other peoples opinions on feeding, I cant speak for other threads - but there are lots of people in this thread that feed fruit/veg. I have even included information on this in the beginning of my thread with all the useful info from 'sleeping lion' on it so that if people go down this route they have some info on it...so whilst I dont feed it personally, its no skin off my nose if others do, if you know what I mean. And to be honest with you, whilst I feel strongly that I wouldnt feed my own animals these items on a daily basis/as a set proportion of their diet, I still give maggie the odd bits and bobs from my plate every now and then - having fed this way for quite a while now Im pretty relaxed about what she gets when.

At the end of the day, I would have thought any form of diet that contains a good % of meat, bones and offal, regardless of what makes up the rest, will be considerably healthier than feeding a commercial diet...and thats really what we all want for our animals I should think, its just we have different ways to get there


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## katiefranke

princesssaskia said:


> I felt really sad reading your original post, as i always do when i read of any poor dog and their owner stuck in the cycle of itchy scratchy skin etc and drugs drugs drugs. I am VERY passionate about homeopathy and one of our key concerns is the long term health damage caused by the suppression of skin conditions. *Vets are always focused on giving antibiotics and steroids to reduce inflammation etc but what they are really doing is pushing the 'disease' back into the body. Homeopaths believe that this leads to other health probs in the future.* Its true that a healthy raw diet (as katie says) is the building block for having a healthy disease fee dog (and human or cat for that matter!) but sometimes there are underlying health issues that need to be corrected, especially if a dog has endured long courses of a variety of drugs and/or excessive vaccinations. I would strongly recommend finding a good homeopathic vet and having a consultation with your little dog. I began using homeopathic remedies on my dogs and myself a few years ago with AMAZING results, my dogs skin is perfect now and i dont ever have to worm or flea them with chemicals and I dont vaccinate anymore either (there are herbal and homeopathic alternatives that are very effective and are based on your animal having a raw healthy diet which means its strong enough not to catch most stuff in the first place and to deal with anything it does catch).


Completely agree - my route in to natural healthcare was initially through research around a raw diet but it led me to the above.

I was just thinking about it all today actually and all the heartache I went through with maggie, the drugs upon drugs we were giving her, nothing helped and it all just got worse and worse  We were at the vets practically every week with one thing or another and I was getting so frustrated with their (and my) inability to help her...

Finally, with a raw diet, no drugs, no chemicals and no vacc she hasnt been to the vet in months and her problems have been disappearing! It is not a quick fix by any means and there appears to be a period of almost a detox, but gradually she has got better and better until nearly a year on you wouldnt know she had had any of these issues. :thumbup:

PS: I was going to bring these things up about what the other 'building blocks' were to good health in my earlier post, but didnt want to scare anyone off with my 'radical' view!!! lol


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## lucybichon

samsmummy said:


> I think you are doing the right thing by looking to feed raw. Trust me when I say it doesn't have to be complicated or so controversial. Good luck.


I'm hoping so! I'm starting to read into it all and to be honest it does all seem a bit mind boggling but I just need to get my head round it! The initial thought of making sure she gets the correct amount of meat/bone/offal is quite worrying, hence why I was thinking of going down the route of Natural Instinct to start with as it's all done for me but I would eventually want to prepare her meals myself once I feel comfortable with it. I think I'll need to invest in another freezer though....I only have a small 4 drawer freezer in my house and could probably only clear out 2 of those for the dog.


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## lucybichon

princesssaskia said:


> I felt really sad reading your original post, as i always do when i read of any poor dog and their owner stuck in the cycle of itchy scratchy skin etc and drugs drugs drugs. I am VERY passionate about homeopathy and one of our key concerns is the long term health damage caused by the suppression of skin conditions. Vets are always focused on giving antibiotics and steroids to reduce inflammation etc but what they are really doing is pushing the 'disease' back into the body. Homeopaths believe that this leads to other health probs in the future. Its true that a healthy raw diet (as katie says) is the building block for having a healthy disease fee dog (and human or cat for that matter!) but sometimes there are underlying health issues that need to be corrected, especially if a dog has endured long courses of a variety of drugs and/or excessive vaccinations. I would strongly recommend finding a good homeopathic vet and having a consultation with your little dog.


Thanks for your reply. We're really at our wits end now as it just seems like all the trips to the vet are getting us nowhere and it feels like we're just throwing our money away. It's awful seeing seeing her in such a state licking and chewing her feet and scooting round in circles on the rug - I thought we were doing the right thing by following the advice of the vet but its been over 18 months now and still no better. I've just had a quick look on the internet for homeopathic vets in my area and there only seems to be 2 nearby - one can only be seen via a referral from your existing vet and the other charges £74 for an initial consultation (not including any remedies prescribed) - this to me seems quite expensive, is this similar to what you paid?

Thanks for the info re: the live bio yogurt - I will try adding a spoonful to her raw turkey mince tonight. Going to see how she does on the turkey mince from now until Saturday/Sunday and then will possibly try her on a chicken wing (eeek!) 

I've actually got a whole chicken for mine and my hubby's tea tonight so I tried cutting the wing off with some normal kitchen scissors and it actually broke the scissors in half!!!??? Should the bone in a chicken wing be this tough?


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## delightfuldior

katiefranke said:


> Sorry forgot to say too that I feed both my cats raw and they weigh around 4kg each - they devour whole chicken quarters and have a go at whole rabbits and all sorts!
> 
> Its all about appropriate sized pieces - generally on the large side is good to encourage crunching and not gulping!


I am on my 3rd week feeding RMB to my two 2 year old lhasa's. Still learning and humming and harrng about portion sizes but my two love it!!!


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## stick

lucybichon said:


> I've actually got a whole chicken for mine and my hubby's tea tonight so I tried cutting the wing off with some normal kitchen scissors and it actually broke the scissors in half!!!??? Should the bone in a chicken wing be this tough?


if you use a knife and cut through the skin toward the joint soyou can feel and see the ball joint, and then manipulate it out of the socket, it'll come off really easily. it sounds worse than it is, but once you've done one, it'll be 2nd nature to you. same procedure with removing the thigh from the carcass too:thumbup:
------------------

had a bit of a setback with the butcher today, he apparently has 2 bullmastiffs and 6 sheepdogs and his mother inlaw keeps lurchers, so he wouldnt spare any scraps etc.

there is an abbatoir/meat packing place nearby though, so will go there tomorrow and see what i can scrounge


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## 300roses

lucybichon said:


> Does anyone on here have little doggies who are fed a raw diet? I'd love to hear how you started off and your experience of it so far.
> 
> Thanks


Hi lucybichon, my gal is a small dog (papillon) and she does very well on raw. She had been on kibbles, then homecooked and now, raw. For her, raw works best.  Till date, she has been on raw for 4 months.

Reading your story reminded me of the times I used to bring my gal to the vet every 1-2 weeks because of her skin condition. She had demodectic mange but despite bringing her to a few different vets, they were unable to diagnose her condition correctly. She was then put on course after course of steriods and antibiotics. But they didnt do her any good, her skin just came back worse after each course of medication. Then finally, I brought her to a vet, who managed to diagnose her condition correctly. He is now her regular vet and he is also the one who suggested that I put her on a raw diet.

When I first started my gal on raw, I used commercial barf patties. But she didnt like them at all. So I did my own raw for her and she loves it. I started her on lamb meat, though I read of many who started off with chicken. Then slowly, I introduced bones and organs.

I learnt to do her raw diet by reading up. Reading really helped alot. There was some detox along the way on her skin, but eventually, it started to clear up. Then slowly, I also learnt to tweat the diet here and there to suit her needs.

I was very nervous when I was starting her on raw. But once I got started, I realised that its not that hard actually. Seeing her enjoy her food really motivated me alot. I have also come to enjoy preparing her raw meals.

Hope to hear more about your experience on raw, ya.


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## princesssaskia

lucybichon said:


> Thanks for your reply. We're really at our wits end now as it just seems like all the trips to the vet are getting us nowhere and it feels like we're just throwing our money away. It's awful seeing seeing her in such a state licking and chewing her feet and scooting round in circles on the rug - I thought we were doing the right thing by following the advice of the vet but its been over 18 months now and still no better. I've just had a quick look on the internet for homeopathic vets in my area and there only seems to be 2 nearby - one can only be seen via a referral from your existing vet and the other charges £74 for an initial consultation (not including any remedies prescribed) - this to me seems quite expensive, is this similar to what you paid?


yes initial consultationscan be quite expensive but what you have to understand is that they are so much thorough than a vet examination, they do a whole 'symptom picture' for your dog, taking many things into account, including symptoms and behaviors you may think are completely unrelated to his 'skin problem' and also his emotional state. Follow up sessions are much cheaper and remedies are not expensive at all. You can buy all homeopathic remedies online including delivery for about £7, i get mine from 'Helios Homeopathy' so if you get your prescription from your homeopathic vet you can buy your own remedies online, though usually I have found that vets charging a consultation fee of between £50 and £80 usually include remedies for free! (cos as i said they are not expensive)

True homeopaths usually charge on a sliding scale, its more important to them to help and sure patients then to earn as much money as possible - very refreshing in this day and age but thats part of the philosophy of homeopathy - usually there are days when they will see client for a lot less money, even free in some cases - or they do a system where you can pay what you can afford. The problem is that homeopaths who work on people are not allowed (by law) to work on animals, so the people who do are actually vets to begin with who have then trained in homeopathy and thus sometimes not as forgiving when it comes to price. This is not true in all cases, you do need to shop about or better still get a recommendation from someone. I have a lovely friend who has studied for many years, she treats my animals though technically she is not allowed to by law (only because she is not a registered vet), but i have had fantastic results with her and trust her judgment - if it was not for her i would struggle to pay for the treatment too! A word of caution though - i trust this lady as she is a good friend, but homeopathy is a science and takes a lot of study and experience, if you are new to it as you are i would always recommend a qualified practitioner!

I dont want to put you off, please do go and see a homeopath if you can, the initial money for a consultation will pay off in the long run - they are usually able to align your dogs system from the inside out, this means that all the problems go away instead on one prob being replaced with another as is so often the case with conventional medicine, you will have a healthier happier dog and you wont need to spend money on an ongoing basis as once you have taken the correct remedy you wont need to keep repeating it. Homeopathy works on the basis that small doses of a substance are used to kick start the bodys own healing ability, it gives your dogs system the strength and direction to sort his own body out! xxxxxxx


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## princesssaskia

katiefranke said:


> Finally, with a raw diet, no drugs, no chemicals and no vacc she hasnt been to the vet in months and her problems have been disappearing! It is not a quick fix by any means and there appears to be a period of almost a detox, but gradually she has got better and better until nearly a year on you wouldnt know she had had any of these issues. :thumbup:
> 
> PS: I was going to bring these things up about what the other 'building blocks' were to good health in my earlier post, but didnt want to scare anyone off with my 'radical' view!!! lol


thanks katie - was worried i was gonna get told off for my little rant - :thumbup: xxxxxx


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## stick

ok so i found 1 butcher out of 15 that i called today who would give me anything. and all he had to give me was a few kg of bones (maybe 3 days worth), which i didnt really want, but felt bad refusing after he'd obliged. so they are being saved in the freezer for when i get them onto bones.

the local slaughter house as well as the rest of the butchers said they couldnt give me anything, which i thought meant "we are saving it for people we know".

but i have just found this online.... BBC NEWS | Wales | Mid Wales | New rules forbid dog bones

so perhaps it is just my area that i cant get them in. will try further afield


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## cinnamontoast

lucybichon said:


> I've actually got a whole chicken for mine and my hubby's tea tonight so I tried cutting the wing off with some normal kitchen scissors and it actually broke the scissors in half!!!??? Should the bone in a chicken wing be this tough?


Yes, but no offence, the scissors were probably a bit pants. I went out and bought a proper cleaver when I started feeding raw. It's great for lumps of meat and for chopping bones and I've not had an issue with shards yet. As Katie says, if you can dislocate the joint, you'll find it much easier.

My OH used to work in a chicken factory when he was in school so he can butcher-handy trick!



stick said:


> but i have just found this online.... BBC NEWS | Wales | Mid Wales | New rules forbid dog bones


Stupid and ridiculous rule, but it's from 2004 and I can get bones whenever I like-hasn't had much of an impact, has it?! 

OH is doing great getting bargains like pork ribs (Asda) currently so the new upright freezer is heavingly full. He's checked the sell by dates (Saturday) of the batch on the supermarket shelves so I'll be trotting along late tomorrow night!


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## stick

yeah has made a difference because nobody will gimme anything. article says ceredigion county council. so is probably fine where you are. i am going to have to travel further afield though. which i dont mind as the odd trip to stock up the freezer wont hurt


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## delightfuldior

cinammontoast said:


> Yes, but no offence, the scissors were probably a bit pants. I went out and bought a proper cleaver when I started feeding raw. It's great for lumps of meat and for chopping bones and I've not had an issue with shards yet. As Katie says, if you can dislocate the joint, you'll find it much easier.
> 
> My OH used to work in a chicken factory when he was in school so he can butcher-handy trick!
> 
> Stupid and ridiculous rule, but it's from 2004 and I can get bones whenever I like-hasn't had much of an impact, has it?!
> 
> OH is doing great getting bargains like pork ribs (Asda) currently so the new upright freezer is heavingly full. He's checked the sell by dates (Saturday) of the batch on the supermarket shelves so I'll be trotting along late tomorrow night!


Morrisons sell lamb bones which are like ribs and they were 30p a pack of 3 and so on.. so cheap!! :thumbup: I got a rack of plain prok ribs this week too for 1.37!!! for my two lhasa's these will last a while.

I have found a butchers at the back of my work who breed, raise and slaughter their own farm animals so if I go in say on the t:thumbup:ues, eh will tell me what day to come back in for what I want.. normally mondays, thursdays and its all bagged up for me!! this is just for offal and strange organs lol but for the rest I am coping qite well with morrisons, only spent 25 quid over 18 days and the freezer is still full, I am refreshing on the chicken quarters as I am using this as a base for their meals but these are only 2.50 for 4 or 5, so thats 4 days worth there!

xx


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## delightfuldior

I have had my two lhasa's on the RMB for nearly a month now and still humming and harring about portion sizes. I am giving them the recommended 2.5% at their main meal, this does sometimes go slightly over if they get a rib.

My concern is that the meat alone isnt enough, I am grating carrot and apple into their meals and will start giving them spinach, brocolli and sweet potato but I dont think this is filling them. Although they love their raw meals they seem so unsatisfied afterwards as if its not filling enough.

I had to boil some wholemeal pasta last night as they seemed so fed up. They are not normally like this after a meal. They usually rub their faces into the floor, play fight for 10 mins then snooze... not now... they just mope about with their tales down. 

Am I ok to add some pasta into their diet with the meat? This morning I gave them a tiny handful each with some sunflower oil and raw garlic and they seemed ok with it. Its just such a long time between meals I cant simply not give them anything for 24 hours :scared::frown::

Any suggestions?

thanks


----------



## hobbs2004

delightfuldior said:


> I have had my two lhasa's on the RMB for nearly a month now and still humming and harring about portion sizes. I am giving them the recommended 2.5% at their main meal, this does sometimes go slightly over if they get a rib.
> 
> My concern is that the meat alone isnt enough, I am grating carrot and apple into their meals and will start giving them spinach, brocolli and sweet potato but I dont think this is filling them. Although they love their raw meals they seem so unsatisfied afterwards as if its not filling enough.
> 
> I had to boil some wholemeal pasta last night as they seemed so fed up. They are not normally like this after a meal. They usually rub their faces into the floor, play fight for 10 mins then snooze... not now... they just mope about with their tales down.
> 
> Am I ok to add some pasta into their diet with the meat? This morning I gave them a tiny handful each with some sunflower oil and raw garlic and they seemed ok with it. Its just such a long time between meals I cant simply not give them anything for 24 hours :scared::frown::
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> thanks


If your dogs were cats I would say that there is perhaps some fat and some protein missing in their diet. Do you also feed meat separately or do you just feed meaty bones?

Sure KF will be along in jiffy to help


----------



## katiefranke

delightfuldior said:


> I have had my two lhasa's on the RMB for nearly a month now and still humming and harring about portion sizes. I am giving them the recommended 2.5% at their main meal, this does sometimes go slightly over if they get a rib.


I would personally up the 2.5%. As I mentioned before, small breeds have higher metabolisms than larger dogs so often need quite a bit more of their body weight...you are probably not feeding them enough.

I would up to 3% and see how this goes and if still not satisfied up to 3.5% etc.

My friends JR terriers are 2.5 yrs and 5 yrs old and are on 5% of body weight for the younger one and almost 4% for the older one. They are pretty active, but they dont get mega amounts of exercise.

The problem with bulking out the diet with carbs is that they are not very easily digested by dogs. So they will stay in the digestive system much longer and use up more energy that has to go towards digestion.

They also have no real nutritional benefit for dogs as most is too difficult to extract due to the way it needs to be digested - the only function for carbs would be additional energy (although dogs can get all the energy they need from protein, fat & water) - in other words, carbs = calories...so more likely to increase weight gain than if you were to just increase the overall % amount in relation to bodyweight.

It is also likely to greatly reduce any benefit of smaller and less smelly stools unfortunately...

I would personally recommend upping the intake with animal proteins & fat...

It is obviously your choice how you want to proceed - so the above is just the way I would go about managing the issue you are having.

...but if you do decide to add the grains, I would suggest keeping it to a minimal amount of the diet to ensure they still get everything needed from meat, bones & offal.

Here is some useful information on carbohydrates in a dogs diet which explains further what I have briefly mentioned above: Carbohydrates | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter


----------



## princesssaskia

:thumbup:to katie once again

Although I appreciate that statistics are important to some extent (and certainly the calcium / phosphorous ratio is) and that it can be comforting to those new to RAW to have figures to work with - I still think that people get too hung up on it - Try and have the confidence to use your common sense and judge your own dog by his weight and activity levels, most of our doggies differ from week to week anyhow, i know mine can have lazy days when we dont get out much for whatever reason, followed by days of long long walks and working in the fields with the horses all day - on the lazy days I tend to feed less and on the busy days more - simples!

Basically, if fido is sleeping loads and has a gut down to the floor then perhaps you need to cut him down a tad and if he is moping about looking very hungry (and not just pretending!) or he is looking skinny then you propbably need to feed him more! xxx


----------



## katiefranke

princesssaskia said:


> Although I appreciate that statistics are important to some extent (and certainly the calcium / phosphorous ratio is) and that it can be comforting to those new to RAW to have figures to work with - I still think that people get too hung up on it - Try and have the confidence to use your common sense and judge your own dog by his weight and activity levels, most of our doggies differ from week to week anyhow, i know mine can have lazy days when we dont get out much for whatever reason, followed by days of long long walks and working in the fields with the horses all day - on the lazy days I tend to feed less and on the busy days more - simples!


Yep completely agree - I know its really confusing at the beginning, I So remember being there!!  but I found that as I got into it I started being much more relaxed.

I NEVER thought I would be like I am now. I dont even weigh stuff anymore! I just guess by sight on what I am feeding and just judge their overall appearance, health and energy levels.

For a while maggie seemed to be lacking in stamina when we started spending more time on agility - I had to do a bit of tweaking and upped her intake on agility training days and now she is just right...I am sure I will need to tweak again come summer etc.

With the extra food, I am probably now feeding her somewhere around 3-3.5% of her body weight instead of just under 3% which is what I was feeding. She is almost 20 months old and has average to high exercise levels and looks lean and fit and is only about 16.5-17kg.  Just shows that whilst the 2-3% is a good starting point and guide, you really should be guided by your dogs' individual requirements.


----------



## daveyace

this might sound stupid but what exactly is tripe?
thanks


----------



## katiefranke

daveyace said:


> this might sound stupid but what exactly is tripe?
> thanks


Thats ok its not a stupid question - its the stomach lining of herbivores, most often cows.

The reason it is quite good is that it is usually quite easy on sensitive tums and it has an equal phosphorous/calcium ratio...which is good as most meats have quite high phos to calcium.

If you go a couple of pages back in the thread, hobbs has posted some info about the nutritional analysis to give you more info...


----------



## sue&harvey

Harvey has had his first raw meal, of sorts. Not too sure what he is meant to do with the chicken flesh, but crunched the bone well, then tried to bury his 2nd drumstick  Will try again in a bit. 

I did manage to get some nice bones and offal from the local abbotior, but this does lead to a question. They gave me a whole OX heart, liver, Kidney but also lung :arf: Is the lung any good? 

Also how can I get rid of the bits I don't want? The lung came attached to the heart and I don't want anyone thinking I have commited any murder :scared:


----------



## Nicky10

You can feed lung it's fed as organ I think. Give it to him and see what he thinks


----------



## hobbs2004

Yes, of course you can feed lung. It is a good source of iron (particularly pig lung), which is great news if you feed well hung meat that by definintion has been drained of blood.

Don't forget though that lung counts towards the offal. Nice and chewy and because it is light it goes long way adds good bulk.


----------



## sue&harvey

Nicky10 said:


> You can feed lung it's fed as organ I think. Give it to him and see what he thinks


I wasn't all that keen, the kitchen looked like I had the entire innards of an ox on my work top :arf: The liver was bigger than the draining board :scared:

He won't be having it for a while as only just changing over


----------



## Nicky10

That doesn't bother me anymore I spent 2 years doing dissections at least once a week at uni. You could put it in the freezer for when he can have organs


----------



## sue&harvey

hobbs2004 said:


> Yes, of course you can feed lung. It is a good source of iron (particularly pig lung), which is great news if you feed well hung meat that by definintion has been drained of blood.
> 
> Don't forget though that lung counts towards the offal. Nice and chewy and because it is light it goes long way adds good bulk.


Thanks, how can I get rid of the leftover bits? Is it ok to put in my normal bin?



Nicky10 said:


> That doesn't bother me anymore I spent 2 years doing dissections at least once a week at uni. You could put it in the freezer for when he can have organs


All frozen  The lot was £5 :thumbup: Really nice chaps too


----------



## Nicky10

Awesome very lucky. Raw can be very very cheap to feed if you find the right deals. You can just throw them away


----------



## hobbs2004

sue&harvey said:


> Thanks, how can I get rid of the leftover bits? Is it ok to put in my normal bin?


Normal household rubbish, compost. You could freeze it and feed bits of it later


----------



## sue&harvey

hobbs2004 said:


> Normal household rubbish, compost. You could freeze it and feed bits of it later


I have cut all the useful bits off, but the aorta is HUGE  Roll on rubbish day


----------



## katiefranke

Are there any leftover bits? They can probably eat everything!


----------



## hobbs2004

sue&harvey said:


> I have cut all the useful bits off, but the aorta is HUGE  Roll on rubbish day


I would give them the aorta too - good for chewing!


----------



## katiefranke

hobbs2004 said:


> I would give them the aorta too - good for chewing!


Yeah mags likes that


----------



## sue&harvey

Ok guys go easy on me. It was the first time I was presented with the innards of an ox :lol:


----------



## katiefranke

sue&harvey said:


> Ok guys go easy on me. It was the first time I was presented with the innards of an ox :lol:


lol!!!!  my husband freaked the first time I brought home a whole set of pig lungs and slapped them down on the worktop to cut up!!!! ha ha ha


----------



## delightfuldior

hobbs2004 said:


> If your dogs were cats I would say that there is perhaps some fat and some protein missing in their diet. Do you also feed meat separately or do you just feed meaty bones?
> 
> Sure KF will be along in jiffy to help


a typical meal would be chicken quarter halved between the two, some lamb heart, bit of pork and some apple and carrot.

My concern is also that if I am feeding their daily allowance at say 5/6pm every day... they are going all night, all day and afternoon with no food :frown:

this surely isnt good???!!!! I am giving them bio yogurt and the odd chew but nothing too big as I'm going over their allowance..

should I go back to two meals a day?

They used to get 2 45 min walks off lead playing ball but now the dark nights are in and the weather is horrific on their notorious lhasa coats they are mainly getting 2 30 minute leads walks now  so I am weary about upping their intake as they gain weight pretty easy do my two monkeys.

thanks for the advice, keep it coming lol


----------



## hobbs2004

delightfuldior said:


> a typical meal would be chicken quarter halved between the two, some lamb heart, bit of pork and some apple and carrot.
> 
> My concern is also that if I am feeding their daily allowance at say 5/6pm every day... they are going all night, all day and afternoon with no food :frown:
> 
> this surely isnt good???!!!! I am giving them bio yogurt and the odd chew but nothing too big as I'm going over their allowance..
> 
> should I go back to two meals a day?
> 
> They used to get 2 45 min walks off lead playing ball but now the dark nights are in and the weather is horrific on their notorious lhasa coats they are mainly getting 2 30 minute leads walks now  so I am weary about upping their intake as they gain weight pretty easy do my two monkeys.
> 
> thanks for the advice, keep it coming lol


I have got no idea what breed of dog you have but that doesn't sound like enough to me. Also, do you feed any offal at all? Do you feed any other meat apart from chicken, which is lean and bone heavy? I know you say you feed pork but you say a bit?

Any reason why you feed only one meal per day?


----------



## katiefranke

delightfuldior said:


> a typical meal would be chicken quarter halved between the two, some lamb heart, bit of pork and some apple and carrot.
> 
> My concern is also that if I am feeding their daily allowance at say 5/6pm every day... they are going all night, all day and afternoon with no food :frown:
> 
> this surely isnt good???!!!! I am giving them bio yogurt and the odd chew but nothing too big as I'm going over their allowance..


Not sure if you saw my post on the previous page after hobbs' post?

Either way, I have read back over all our conversations through this thread to refresh on the details of your dogs and what you are feeding etc so that I could have a think about what I would do...considering all the details about your dogs and what you have fed so far etc, the below is what I would personally do - hope it is useful:

Ok so to summarise the situation as I understand it - Joey has a bit of a sensitive tum and weighs 8kg - and your girl weighs roughly 6.5kg. You started them on raw about a month ago, initially with some kibble too and switched completely a couple of weeks back.

You were finding they were sicking up little bits of undigested bone and had a few poop problems - either hard and crumbly or upset tum and have had a few issues with them being hungry and so I guess have now switched to feeding one meal a day so you dont have to cut up the bones?

From what I can see you have also been adding sunflower oil, yoghurt, raw garlic, vegetables and a little pasta. But you are not really feeding them any offal on a regular basis yet due to joeys sensitive tum?

*Ok, so my strongest suggestion would be to go back to basics for the moment. * I think there is too much going on there for a newbie to raw and for the time being you need to try and find the right amount for them to keep them full, so we need to cut it down a bit to the meat/bones/offal.

*So, cut out the sunflower oil, yoghurt, raw garlic, vegetables, pasta and treats for the moment. You can add some back in later but for now stick to just meat & bones and concentrate on starting them off properly with offal.*

As I mentioned, small breed dogs often have a very high metabolism and so require more %-wise than larger dogs. My own dog gets over 3%. My friends JRs get around 4 & 5%. Each dog is different so you have to adjust to suit.

*I would try them on 3% of their weight per day. Make it into two meals. I think you need to decrease the bone content and increase the meat content overall. So 3% of 8kg is 240g and 3% of 6.5kg is 195g.*

*I would also go back to 2 meals a day - you dont have to feed equal amounts at each*. So perhaps feed a small meat meal in the AM, maybe something like heart, tripe, chicken/pork/beef chunks etc. This will stop them from being hungry but not give them too much so that you cant feed them their evening meal.

Then for the PM meal, feed something meaty but with bone-in, such as a chicken thigh or even some chicken breast joined to some of the ribs from the carcass. If you do feed anything bonier like pork ribs or a chicken wing, then the next day you will want to feed meatier meals to compensate. Keeping the bone % down should help with the shards in sick and dry poops.

Upping the meat will help get the 'moisture' into them as you mentioned a couple of posts back.

You should provide tiny bits of offal - liver, kidney, pancreas, lungs - every couple of days if you havent started already and then gradually increase until they are eating their full 10% (either every day or a weeks worth split across a few of the days).

On days when they have more exercise you could also increase their intake a little to compensate.

After a week you should know whether this will be ok for them. Keep an eye on their weight and whether they seem less hungry now they have a second meal. As long as you can feel their individual ribs when pressing your fingers lightly on them and can see a slight indent at their waist when looking from above, then they are fine - or course a hairy dog will be diff so feeling for the ribs with your fingers will be most accurate.

If they are fine weight-wise but still seem hungry, increase to 3.5%.

If they dont seem hungry, stick with this %.

If after another week, they are still ok weight-wise and still seem hungry, increase the weight again by a little bit etc.

At this point, if you would like to add some oil, I would suggest pure salmon oil and the tiniest amount as they do not need much at all due to their small size. Go easy on it, as fat can give loose stools.

At the end of all this, if you still want to feed veg, then do so, but at least now you will know the rough amounts you need to feed to be adequate for them.

Remember, it is all about adjusting to suit the needs of your dogs and all the % and ratios etc are just guides to get you started.

PS: as I said at the beginning of this mega-long post, this is what I would do personally if I was in your situation - take what's helpful from it and adapt to suit


----------



## hobbs2004

I can only second KF's advice. Feed more meat (not just lean meat either) and introduce offal. Eventually start introducing different sources of meat to give them variety and to balance them nutritionally. Feed them two meals! 

Good luck!


----------



## sue&harvey

Ok so we had another go last night with Harvey. He had a chicken breast, which he ate well, and had a wing and breast this morning, and did well with it. 

Bracken had the same this morning, and thought christmas had come early! he Loved it. 

My problem with Bracken is he hoovers his food. I cut Harveys for him just to help he get the Idea, but knowing what pup is like left his whole so he couldn't gulp it. But I now have very sore fingers due to his enthusiasum. 

How can I teach him to slow down! He was also like this with Kibble. My fingers cannot keep being used to stop him taking huge gulps


----------



## luvmydogs

What do you think about the theory that dogs have evolved so much away from the wolf that they should not be fed raw food? YouTube - Are dogs and wolves really that similar?


----------



## hobbs2004

luvmydogs said:


> What do you think about the theory that dogs have evolved so much away from the wolf that they should not be fed raw food? YouTube - Are dogs and wolves really that similar?


Not a lot  I am not going to discuss the degree to which wolves and dogs are similar or dissimilar. But firmly in terms of diet and their ability to deal with raw food.

If you think about it, commercial cat and dog food has only been available for 100 years or so and kibble for less. Before that, domesticated cats and dogs were fed kitchen scraps, raw food, prey etc. So, unless they are saying that such evolutionary changes can occur in such a short space of time, particularly in certain countries where there is more of a predominance to feed commercial food than in others.... TBH, total ****.


----------



## lucybichon

I gave Lucy her first chicken wing last night......and she absolutely loved it!! I must admit I was quite nervous when I first gave it to her but everything was fine, no sick, no choking, nothing! I tried holding it for her first so she could chew it slowly but she just kept giving it a quick lick and then sitting down and looking at me as if to say "come on then mum, let me have it!" So I put it down on the kitchen floor for her and she happily chomped away at it, crunching the bone and finished it all off in less than 5 mins! She absolutely loved it! :thumbup:


----------



## katiefranke

hobbs2004 said:


> Not a lot  I am not going to discuss the degree to which wolves and dogs are similar or dissimilar. But firmly in terms of diet and their ability to deal with raw food.
> 
> If you think about it, commercial cat and dog food has only been available for 100 years or so and kibble for less. Before that, domesticated cats and dogs were fed kitchen scraps, raw food, prey etc. So, unless they are saying that such evolutionary changes can occur in such a short space of time, particularly in certain countries where there is more of a predominance to feed commercial food than in others.... TBH, total ****.


I second that 

They only have to look at the inner workings of a dog or cat to see that they are still almost identical to that of their ancestors!

In fact, a dog is so close in physical make up to the wolf still that it is classified as a sub-species and can produce fertile off-spring if the two are mated...

...so doesnt really say much for their theory...


----------



## katiefranke

sue&harvey said:


> How can I teach him to slow down! He was also like this with Kibble. My fingers cannot keep being used to stop him taking huge gulps


I found this for about the first week - then once they learnt there was still going to be more coming, they slowed down and got used to it once the novelty wore off...

Failing that, feed bigger pieces and let him eat his full and then put back in the fridge for the next meal. If you feed something big and complicated that he has to work at, it will tire him out, esp as he is a young pup.



lucybichon said:


> I gave Lucy her first chicken wing last night......and she absolutely loved it!!


Glad to hear she did so well with it!! :thumbup:


----------



## sue&harvey

Ok having a think we may do some mince and some sourced by me so they get whole things. I have contacted Darlings for the veg free option. I based it as if they were having the minces all the time. It came back pretty expensive, compared to natural instinct. Although they say it's tailor made diet, they didn't give me a breakdown. Which is the better one?


----------



## luvmydogs

katiefranke said:


> I second that
> 
> They only have to look at the inner workings of a dog or cat to see that they are still almost identical to that of their ancestors!
> 
> In fact, a dog is so close in physical make up to the wolf still that it is classified as a sub-species and can produce fertile off-spring if the two are mated...
> 
> ...so doesnt really say much for their theory...


I must admit I find it confusing. Wolves are nothing like dogs in their ability to be trained, and we say that is because dogs have evolved differently........it was a thread leashedforlife put in the training/behaviour section that got me thinking.


----------



## hobbs2004

katiefranke said:


> I second that
> 
> They only have to look at the inner workings of a dog or cat to see that they are still almost identical to that of their ancestors!
> 
> In fact, a dog is so close in physical make up to the wolf still that it is classified as a sub-species and can produce fertile off-spring if the two are mated...
> 
> ...so doesnt really say much for their theory...


Also, his whole spiel about the stomach ph being different between wolves and dogs, with dogs having a higher ph compared with the raw fed dogs. Well, that surely depends on which stomach content they sampled. As far as I know, the stomach content of a raw fed cat or dog is going to be more acidic, and therefore closer if not equal to that of a wolf, compared with the stomach ph of a kibble fed cat or dog that contains a wealth of carbs, which will bring the ph into a more neutral range.

I say it again, what a ****.


----------



## lucybichon

Oh dear, spoke too soon! Just got home to find that she's been sick right in the middle of the rug.....lovely! There's not that much, just a bit of off-white foamy stuff. Is this normal when switching over? It's not put her off food because she's just been searching round near her bowls to see if there was anything left from this morning and she was sat wide-eyed watching me eat my lunch. 

Also I've noticed that she's hardly drinking any water since we switched to raw last week. I'm having to cup some in my hand to get her to drink any. :confused1:


----------



## katiefranke

luvmydogs said:


> I must admit I find it confusing. Wolves are nothing like dogs in their ability to be trained, and we say that is because dogs have evolved differently........it was a thread leashedforlife put in the training/behaviour section that got me thinking.


ah well on this I COMPLETELY and WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree!! But mental ability is incredibly different to physical make up.

dogs are very far removed from wolves when it comes to the way they think as clearly their behaviour has become domesticated...but behaviours can change very quickly. To change the physical takes huge amounts of time.


----------



## luvmydogs

katiefranke said:


> ah well on this I COMPLETELY and WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree!! But mental ability is incredibly different to physical make up.
> 
> dogs are very far removed from wolves when it comes to the way they think as clearly their behaviour has become domesticated...but behaviours can change very quickly. To change the physical takes huge amounts of time.


I agree. Do you mind if I quote you?


----------



## katiefranke

lucybichon said:


> Oh dear, spoke too soon! Just got home to find that she's been sick right in the middle of the rug.....lovely! There's not that much, just a bit of off-white foamy stuff. Is this normal when switching over? It's not put her off food because she's just been searching round near her bowls to see if there was anything left from this morning and she was sat wide-eyed watching me eat my lunch.
> 
> Also I've noticed that she's hardly drinking any water since we switched to raw last week. I'm having to cup some in my hand to get her to drink any. :confused1:


the water thing is completely normal - raw food has a huge % of moisture. my cats never drink out of the water bowl anymore and the dog much less.

re the sick - it COULD be a little too much bone in a chicken wing. maybe start with smaller amounts. something good for a small dog which is relatively easy to digest would be a piece of breast meat joined to some ribs of the chicken carcass (if you buy a whole one and portion). as then there is more meat to bone in the ratio.

until her digestive system can fully digest the bone, you may have a little bit of sick or even tiny bone pieces in the sick.

just keep an eye on her and make sure you give meaty meals for the next couple at least...


----------



## katiefranke

luvmydogs said:


> I agree. Do you mind if I quote you?


sure no probs!


----------



## katiefranke

hobbs2004 said:


> As far as I know, the stomach content of a raw fed cat or dog is going to be more acidic, and therefore closer if not equal to that of a wolf, compared with the stomach ph of a kibble fed cat or dog that contains a wealth of carbs, which will bring the ph into a more neutral range.
> 
> I say it again, what a ****.


yup, another good point - this is why I only skim these things. same old thing each time and not once have i seen proper studies conducted.

it doesnt do itself any favours. the stomach ph of any animal will depend on what it is being fed!! that is not down to evolution, or whether it SHOULD be a certain level, thats just down to a body being forced to adapt to something...it doesnt mean it is good. as we all know, there are lots of reason why an acidic digestive tract is actually much more preferble. maybe if all dogs had more acidic stomach juices it would stop so many from getting upset tums when they snuffle in things, eat things they shouldnt and general act like a dog!


----------



## lucybichon

katiefranke said:


> the water thing is completely normal - raw food has a huge % of moisture. my cats never drink out of the water bowl anymore and the dog much less.
> 
> re the sick - it COULD be a little too much bone in a chicken wing. maybe start with smaller amounts. something good for a small dog which is relatively easy to digest would be a piece of breast meat joined to some ribs of the chicken carcass (if you buy a whole one and portion). as then there is more meat to bone in the ratio.
> 
> until her digestive system can fully digest the bone, you may have a little bit of sick or even tiny bone pieces in the sick.
> 
> just keep an eye on her and make sure you give meaty meals for the next couple at least...


Thanks Katie. I feel much better now! I've taken out some chicken breast from the freezer for her meal tonight and she had turkey steaks this morning so no more bone for her today!


----------



## katiefranke

sue&harvey said:


> Ok having a think we may do some mince and some sourced by me so they get whole things. I have contacted Darlings for the veg free option. I based it as if they were having the minces all the time. It came back pretty expensive, compared to natural instinct. Although they say it's tailor made diet, they didn't give me a breakdown. Which is the better one?


Hey Sue - both of them seem to have pretty good sources for their ingredients, but yes I do think they are very pricey. Darlings are more as they use all free-range and organic I believe.

NI are changing their ranges soon to have a cat version (which will be veg-free and suitable for dogs) so you could look out for this.

However, if I were you, I would think about getting a range of things and only using the darlings/NI occasionally for some of the meals.

Sometimes new dogs to raw find these kinds of mixes much too rich as they have the offal in them and you cant introduce slowly...so you might want to start off with whole pieces etc and think about it for a bit.

I dont personally feed any minces.


----------



## sue&harvey

katiefranke said:


> Hey Sue - both of them seem to have pretty good sources for their ingredients, but yes I do find them very pricey. Darlings are more as they use all free-range and organic I believe.
> 
> NI are changing their ranges soon to have a cat version (which will be veg-free and suitable for dogs) so you could look out for this.
> 
> However, if I were you, I would think about getting a range of things and only using the darlings/NI occasionally for some of the meals.
> 
> Sometimes new dogs to raw find these kinds of mixes much too rich as they have the offal in them and you cant introduce slowly...so you might want to start off with whole pieces etc and think about it for a bit.


Bracken has just has a really sloppy and there was mucus there too. This can only be because of the chicken he had this am. Is this usual?


----------



## dagny0823

I don't want to derail anything, but I just wanted to say how refreshing this thread is (and quite informative)--over here in the US, raw feeding is considered some dangerous fad espoused only by fringe kooks and when I try to post helpful information on the corgi owner forum I'm on, I only get attacks and pooh-poohs about how it's not right to feed them raw, it's not good for them, it makes them reek with pathogens and bacteria, it's unbalanced, and dangerous to me and my pets, and best yet, having raw meat in the kitchen is a health threat of epic proportions and I really need to keep a separate freezer for the pets for their raw meat (I guess the meat I cook for us humans isn't raw when I start with it, and the freezer is NOT full of raw meat?)

Thanks to all of you for the sanity and the very sound advice and guidance. This thread is the best! I now have the confidence to really start raw feeding, although the logistics of getting offal here are a little tricky and is the only thing still holding me back.


----------



## delightfuldior

katiefranke said:


> Not sure if you saw my post on the previous page after hobbs' post?
> 
> Either way, I have read back over all our conversations through this thread to refresh on the details of your dogs and what you are feeding etc so that I could have a think about what I would do...considering all the details about your dogs and what you have fed so far etc, the below is what I would personally do - hope it is useful:
> 
> Ok so to summarise the situation as I understand it - Joey has a bit of a sensitive tum and weighs 8kg - and your girl weighs roughly 6.5kg. You started them on raw about a month ago, initially with some kibble too and switched completely a couple of weeks back.
> 
> You were finding they were sicking up little bits of undigested bone and had a few poop problems - either hard and crumbly or upset tum and have had a few issues with them being hungry and so I guess have now switched to feeding one meal a day so you dont have to cut up the bones?
> 
> From what I can see you have also been adding sunflower oil, yoghurt, raw garlic, vegetables and a little pasta. But you are not really feeding them any offal on a regular basis yet due to joeys sensitive tum?
> 
> *Ok, so my strongest suggestion would be to go back to basics for the moment. * I think there is too much going on there for a newbie to raw and for the time being you need to try and find the right amount for them to keep them full, so we need to cut it down a bit to the meat/bones/offal.
> 
> *So, cut out the sunflower oil, yoghurt, raw garlic, vegetables, pasta and treats for the moment. You can add some back in later but for now stick to just meat & bones and concentrate on starting them off properly with offal.*
> 
> As I mentioned, small breed dogs often have a very high metabolism and so require more %-wise than larger dogs. My own dog gets over 3%. My friends JRs get around 4 & 5%. Each dog is different so you have to adjust to suit.
> 
> *I would try them on 3% of their weight per day. Make it into two meals. I think you need to decrease the bone content and increase the meat content overall. So 3% of 8kg is 240g and 3% of 6.5kg is 195g.*
> 
> *I would also go back to 2 meals a day - you dont have to feed equal amounts at each*. So perhaps feed a small meat meal in the AM, maybe something like heart, tripe, chicken/pork/beef chunks etc. This will stop them from being hungry but not give them too much so that you cant feed them their evening meal.
> 
> Then for the PM meal, feed something meaty but with bone-in, such as a chicken thigh or even some chicken breast joined to some of the ribs from the carcass. If you do feed anything bonier like pork ribs or a chicken wing, then the next day you will want to feed meatier meals to compensate. Keeping the bone % down should help with the shards in sick and dry poops.
> 
> Upping the meat will help get the 'moisture' into them as you mentioned a couple of posts back.
> 
> You should provide tiny bits of offal - liver, kidney, pancreas, lungs - every couple of days if you havent started already and then gradually increase until they are eating their full 10% (either every day or a weeks worth split across a few of the days).
> 
> On days when they have more exercise you could also increase their intake a little to compensate.
> 
> After a week you should know whether this will be ok for them. Keep an eye on their weight and whether they seem less hungry now they have a second meal. As long as you can feel their individual ribs when pressing your fingers lightly on them and can see a slight indent at their waist when looking from above, then they are fine - or course a hairy dog will be diff so feeling for the ribs with your fingers will be most accurate.
> 
> If they are fine weight-wise but still seem hungry, increase to 3.5%.
> 
> If they dont seem hungry, stick with this %.
> 
> If after another week, they are still ok weight-wise and still seem hungry, increase the weight again by a little bit etc.
> 
> At this point, if you would like to add some oil, I would suggest pure salmon oil and the tiniest amount as they do not need much at all due to their small size. Go easy on it, as fat can give loose stools.
> 
> At the end of all this, if you still want to feed veg, then do so, but at least now you will know the rough amounts you need to feed to be adequate for them.
> 
> Remember, it is all about adjusting to suit the needs of your dogs and all the % and ratios etc are just guides to get you started.
> 
> PS: as I said at the beginning of this mega-long post, this is what I would do personally if I was in your situation - take what's helpful from it and adapt to suit


thank you so much for the guidance, I dont think I have been doing it right, Joey is a little loose although not too bad, I think this could be the heart, I have to be very very careful with offal, even a 10p peice maks him react.her steer clear of chicken breast as its quite expensive (£1 per breast!!) so I have been buying quarters at £2.50 for 4 and cutting some flesh off these, I bought lots of pork and beef steaks last week but they are really flat :, so I need to get some pork joints in and brisket. I've got tons of offal in the freezer from last week when they butcher shoved the whole lot mixed up in a carrier! but I have no idea what it is and once defrosted will no doubt go off because there is so much of it. 
I moved from 2 meals to 1 before I changed to the RMB because they were leaving the morning feed but I know they will take it back now its the raw :thumbup: so will split the meals to two again.
I took Joey to the vets this morning as he has an eye infection and I weighhed them both.
Both dogs have put half a kilo on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so no increase at present!!!! BUT I will give a little more on the days they get longer walks, maybe the lesser exercise has caused the gain as I know I havent been over feeding.
Little chunksters lol
thanks again for the advice its very much appreciated. I wouldnt even be feeding my two the RMB if it wasnt for you!!!
x


----------



## katiefranke

sue&harvey said:


> Bracken has just has a really sloppy and there was mucus there too. This can only be because of the chicken he had this am. Is this usual?


Yep - unfortuately for a little while the body is trying to sort itself out. It has to adjust to regain the higher acidic levels to be able to digest the raw meat and bones - but until it gets to that point, poops will probably be a little loose. It is a little bit trial and error, as you could go down the route of feeding every meal with some bone, like a chicken quarter (so not TOO boney) and this can keep them normal...BUT newbies to raw often have trouble with too much bone as they cannot yet digest it, so you have to find the right balance.

It usually lasts for a day or so and then they start getting normal again and after about a week to two weeks they can digest bone much better so that it turns to white powder in their poops rather than being able to see actual pieces of bone.

Bascially, its a bit yuk and some are lucky enough to not get any side effects, but what you have described is quite common and will resolve itself with a little bit of time.


----------



## katiefranke

dagny0823 said:


> Thanks to all of you for the sanity and the very sound advice and guidance. This thread is the best! I now have the confidence to really start raw feeding, although the logistics of getting offal here are a little tricky and is the only thing still holding me back.


Thats a shame that these people cannot have conversations about raw feeding without stating myths as facts!

I remember even before I knew much about it, the thought intrigued me as it just kind of made sense. And I did worry about the different 'problems' presented by these people, but I did some research and found out the real answers for myself. Its one of the reasons I wrote this thread - as I wanted to share the information I had gathered and learned to help others who were considering it/wanted to know more/had concerns etc.

I think its fair enough if someone has bothered to do the research but decides its not for them...but what annoys me is when people dont do the research and talk nonsense about something they know nothing about as if what they say is based on real information! 

Luckily there are many people that feed raw on this forum and so you will not find it quite so challenging to have a good discussion about it.


----------



## katiefranke

delightfuldior said:


> Joey is a little loose although not too bad, I think this could be the heart, I have to be very very careful with offal, even a 10p peice maks him react


Glad to help 

Just to confirm, whilst heart is an organ, it is muscle, so classes in the muscle meat allowance (80%) when feeding. However, it is still richer than normal meat (although not as bad as liver) so you need to introduce it slowly too.

A 10p piece of offal is actually quite a lot for dogs of their size! I had to start maggie on literally pieces like the size of the white of my fingernail, no joke! It took a good few months to build up to the right levels.

Sometimes in the initial stages, if the liver is too rich you can very lightly cook it which sometimes helps.

With the great load of offal you have frozen, is it one big lot? I made this mistake when first feeding raw and in the end just chucked it! To start you are much better getting small amounts at a time from the butcher and cutting into little pieces to freeze. That way you can just get out a couple at a time.


----------



## cinnamontoast

*Does happy dance* OH was recommended a butcher by the supermarket butcher. He visited today and got the impression that the raw food is a 'forbidden topic' as the guy was very shifty and OH had to beg for details. He came away with a fabulous contact for tripe/chicken (greyhound supplier) not too far from here and with 'the special stuff' firmly stuck in his head:










PMSL! The guy was apparently _very_ shifty!


----------



## katiefranke

cinammontoast said:


> PMSL! The guy was apparently _very_ shifty!


Lol!!! brilliant picture


----------



## cinnamontoast

sue&harvey said:


> Bracken has just has a really sloppy and there was mucus there too. This can only be because of the chicken he had this am. Is this usual?


Totally normal: when I first started, it was all like this til I found a better balance and the dogs adjusted. I'm dreading the mackerel the OH bought today-the pups love it but it does make for slippy stuff! We don't tend to get that anymore, but it was quite horrible to start with: it just takes time for them to adjust.


----------



## sue&harvey

katiefranke said:


> Yep - unfortuately for a little while the body is trying to sort itself out. It has to adjust to regain the higher acidic levels to be able to digest the raw meat and bones - but until it gets to that point, poops will probably be a little loose. It is a little bit trial and error, as you could go down the route of feeding every meal with some bone, like a chicken quarter (so not TOO boney) and this can keep them normal...BUT newbies to raw often have trouble with too much bone as they cannot yet digest it, so you have to find the right balance.
> 
> It usually lasts for a day or so and then they start getting normal again and after about a week to two weeks they can digest bone much better so that it turns to white powder in their poops rather than being able to see actual pieces of bone.
> 
> Bascially, its a bit yuk and some are lucky enough to not get any side effects, but what you have described is quite common and will resolve itself with a little bit of time.





cinammontoast said:


> Totally normal: when I first started, it was all like this til I found a better balance and the dogs adjusted. I'm dreading the mackerel the OH bought today-the pups love it but it does make for slippy stuff! We don't tend to get that anymore, but it was quite horrible to start with: it just takes time for them to adjust.


Thanks both, good job we bought a Bissell when we got Bracken! It really was :arf: They have both had chook again tonight, and both been very enthusiastic about their meal (and only 4 more puncture marks to my hands)


----------



## delightfuldior

katiefranke said:


> Glad to help
> 
> Just to confirm, whilst heart is an organ, it is muscle, so classes in the muscle meat allowance (80%) when feeding. However, it is still richer than normal meat (although not as bad as liver) so you need to introduce it slowly too.
> 
> A 10p piece of offal is actually quite a lot for dogs of their size! I had to start maggie on literally pieces like the size of the white of my fingernail, no joke! It took a good few months to build up to the right levels.
> 
> Sometimes in the initial stages, if the liver is too rich you can very lightly cook it which sometimes helps.
> 
> With the great load of offal you have frozen, is it one big lot? I made this mistake when first feeding raw and in the end just chucked it! To start you are much better getting small amounts at a time from the butcher and cutting into little pieces to freeze. That way you can just get out a couple at a time.


I went to the butcher and asked if they had any unusual offal like lung etc and he said he would bag soe up for me the next day. I went to collect it and it was a carrier bag full :eek6: I tried to seperate some of it but had no idea what it was. I'm guessing the lung was the one with a white tub coming off it?? a bit like liver but not as smooth and with little holes in it??? liver is the smooth slimey stuff and I know the heart. blurgh, there was blood all over the place. Maybe I need to throw it and start again lol.

Today I went to morrisons and bought some beef brisket for 4 quid and some pork. I was meant to pick up a boneless pork shoulder on at half price and walked out with a boneless pork leg costing me nearly 7 quid :scared:. Wont be buying that again in a hurry. The butchers dont have any tripe which is odd so I'm going to get some prize choice stuff for now from pets at home. I'll then do as you advised, give some beef, pork and / or tripe chunks in the morning and then meat on bone in the evening.

I need to sort out portions etc to freeze too as I am just throwing the quarters and hearts whole into the freezer.. should really prepare individual meals, label them then freeze them. So much easier overall.

Just one thing - today I was weighing up the evening meat on bone meal and the 1/2 of the chicken quarter weighed more than joeys whole daily allowance!! I've been told to not cut it so if I reduce the bone (which is causing the weight) to a chicken drumstick instead will this be enough??? I've thought about giving them the chicken on carcass ribs but this would be waaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy over his daily allowance.. he's only allowed 200g a day. its measly :-(

thanks again!:thumbup:


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## sandymere

dagny0823 said:


> I don't want to derail anything, but I just wanted to say how refreshing this thread is (and quite informative)--over here in the US, raw feeding is considered some dangerous fad espoused only by fringe kooks and when I try to post helpful information on the corgi owner forum I'm on, I only get attacks and pooh-poohs about how it's not right to feed them raw, it's not good for them, it makes them reek with pathogens and bacteria, it's unbalanced, and dangerous to me and my pets, and best yet, having raw meat in the kitchen is a health threat of epic proportions and I really need to keep a separate freezer for the pets for their raw meat (I guess the meat I cook for us humans isn't raw when I start with it, and the freezer is NOT full of raw meat?)
> 
> Thanks to all of you for the sanity and the very sound advice and guidance. This thread is the best! I now have the confidence to really start raw feeding, although the logistics of getting offal here are a little tricky and is the only thing still holding me back.


Not epic proportions but there are a proven risk to dogs, see link below, but more importantly to children that come into contact. I feed a proportion of raw food but don't use pet quality minces or poultry etc due to the excessive bacterial loads and don't allow children to play with the dogs or in their area. I use rabbit that is caught and frozen on the same day so not likely to carry heavy loads or human quality waste meat direct from butchers which again is less likely to carry un-naturally high bacterial loads or other contaminants. 
Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets

http://www.deltasociety.org/Document.Doc?id=679


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## luvmydogs

katiefranke said:


> dogs are very far removed from wolves when it comes to the way they think as clearly their behaviour has become domesticated...but behaviours can change very quickly. To change the physical takes huge amounts of time.


from the training and behaviour thread..."IMO, dogs must have had that 'huge amount of time' - as they differ from wolves enormously in many ways.

* their intestines are longer - reflecting the shift from predator to scavenger, mostly-carnivore to omnivore 
[even wolves eat fruits and greens, particularly the contents of stomachs and large-bowl, plus like dogs, 
wolves will eat herbivore droppings].

* dogs' teeth and skulls are markedly smaller in most breeds 
* even in large breeds, the teeth are smaller in relation to the skull, 
and the back-skull is smaller in relation to the body, as well as narrower and more rounded, 
rather than a wolf's flat broad wedge of back-skull.

* wolves have longer, markedly straighter legs than dogs, in proportion to their respective bodies.

* wolves are more moderate in proportions: their ribs are not as flat and deep as sighthounds, 
nor as barrel-chested as Brit Bulldogs; they are built for endurance rather than bursts of speed, 
with a ground-eating efficient trot for long-distances.

* brachycephalic breeds resemble no wolf who ever lived.

there are more-specific alterations, but that's most of the obvious stuff."


ps - I raw feed. I just think other viewpoints are interesting.


----------



## dagny0823

katiefranke said:


> Thats a shame that these people cannot have conversations about raw feeding without stating myths as facts!
> 
> I remember even before I knew much about it, the thought intrigued me as it just kind of made sense. And I did worry about the different 'problems' presented by these people, but I did some research and found out the real answers for myself. Its one of the reasons I wrote this thread - as I wanted to share the information I had gathered and learned to help others who were considering it/wanted to know more/had concerns etc.
> 
> I think its fair enough if someone has bothered to do the research but decides its not for them...but what annoys me is when people dont do the research and talk nonsense about something they know nothing about as if what they say is based on real information!
> 
> Luckily there are many people that feed raw on this forum and so you will not find it quite so challenging to have a good discussion about it.


It's quite annoying, yes, when they claim to have researched things to death, but really know little. Today I was told all raw meat has worms and parasites and that's why we cook for ourselves, but if we give it to our dogs, they'll get worms and it's impossible to find anything parasite free. I guess they don't eat a lot of sushi, these folks.

They also brought up the evolution thing--totally disputed the 100 years of packaged foods for dogs argument saying that since we've bred them to look different, certainly we could have bred dogs to eat differently by being with them. So the evolutionary time line is much longer in their minds, somehow, with kibble just being the end result of all those centuries of breeding out the ability to consume raw. I'm terribly frustrated by the circularity of their arguments.

I've tried to make comparisons about the safety of raw milk and unpasteurized cider--that it just requires more cleanliness and is better for you, but they fail to see how one has anything to do with the other. I'm so disgusted with all of them.

I did have a dumb offal question though---if you feed kidneys, should you soak them just to get rid of the smell in the house for your own sake? Or would that take away some useful enzymes? Not that I expect to find kidneys in my neck of the woods, but if I do get lucky, I want to know


----------



## Nicky10

dagny0823 said:


> It's quite annoying, yes, when they claim to have researched things to death, but really know little. Today I was told all raw meat has worms and parasites and that's why we cook for ourselves, but if we give it to our dogs, they'll get worms and it's impossible to find anything parasite free. I guess they don't eat a lot of sushi, these folks.
> 
> They also brought up the evolution thing--totally disputed the 100 years of packaged foods for dogs argument saying that since we've bred them to look different, certainly we could have bred dogs to eat differently by being with them. So the evolutionary time line is much longer in their minds, somehow, with kibble just being the end result of all those centuries of breeding out the ability to consume raw. I'm terribly frustrated by the circularity of their arguments.
> 
> I've tried to make comparisons about the safety of raw milk and unpasteurized cider--that it just requires more cleanliness and is better for you, but they fail to see how one has anything to do with the other. I'm so disgusted with all of them.
> 
> I did have a dumb offal question though---if you feed kidneys, should you soak them just to get rid of the smell in the house for your own sake? Or would that take away some useful enzymes? Not that I expect to find kidneys in my neck of the woods, but if I do get lucky, I want to know


You freeze raw meat to get rid of parasites and dogs are far more adapted than we are to coping with parasites. Before 40/50 years ago most dogs would have been fed table scraps and raw bones then slowly commercial food was brought in. Adaptation just doesn't happen that quickly. Dogs are designed to eat meat not kibble. You'll find most of that research is sponsored by dog food companies and strangely seems to say that dogs can only eat dog food...

As for making humans sick. You do have to be more cautious with very young children, older people, pregnant women and immuno-compromised people but apart from that basic hygiene should prevent humans getting sick. A therapy dog group in the US banned raw fed dogs based on one study sponsored by Hills I believe which said that raw fed dogs shed bacteria.

I'm not sure about kidneys sorry Buster won't touch them no matter what animal they're from


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## sue&harvey

We are still plodding on. I have very sore fingers, and they are crossed hoping that we may have got used to it a bit more. What is the best meat to introduce next? Can easily get beef, pork, and I have heart. (Not for a few more days yet) Lamb I am still looking at where I can source from. Still having to hold brackens tight as he would gulp it given the chance.


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## luvmydogs

sue&harvey said:


> We are still plodding on. I have very sore fingers, and they are crossed hoping that we may have got used to it a bit more.


Use pliers when feeding.


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## sue&harvey

luvmydogs said:


> Use pliers when feeding.


Now there's a plan :thumbup: A slight distraction has left one nasty cut on my thumb


----------



## princesssaskia

dagny0823 said:


> I did have a dumb offal question though---if you feed kidneys, should you soak them just to get rid of the smell in the house for your own sake? Or would that take away some useful enzymes? Not that I expect to find kidneys in my neck of the woods, but if I do get lucky, I want to know


I only feed my girls lamb kidneys ( i get them delivered fresh and vacuum packed from an organic farm, i put them in my freezer until i want to feed, then i just get a couple out (they have 1 or 2 each in one sitting) and i just defrost them and chop them up and feed raw mixed in with the rest of their meal. I dont ever soak them? and they dont smell at all?


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## daveyace

is it ok for a dog to eat raw meat if it has never eaten it before?


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## Nicky10

Yes dogs can be switched at any point


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## lucybichon

Well Lucy is loving her raw diet so far! I've never seen her enjoy her food so much - it's really lovely to see. She had another chicken wing and some breast meat last night and she took more time eating the wing which was good because I was a bit scared at how quickly she managed to polish off the first one on Tuesday! She is letting off some extremely smelly wind though  is this to be expected for the first week of switching to raw? 

I've also (and I apologise for going off topic here) booked an appointment to see a homeopathic vet tomorrow, I found her details on the BAHVS website and she seems to be the only one near where I live. Fingers crossed we can start Lucy on the road to recovery soon!


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## sandymere

Just read a couple of posts that refer to research into raw feeding, having looked into this area in some depth and found very little research i would be interested if you could post a few links to the mentioned research papers as i would very much like to read them. As this thread states "Raw Feeding: everything you need to know!" it seems a little light on the negative aspects of this and so rather unbalanced in light of available knowledge but perhaps the with the papers that you post in reply you will put my mind to rest.

Ps dagny0823 the worm infection from sushi/raw fish is Anisakiasis see link below.

http://foodbase.org.uk/admintools/r...urvey_of_Anisakid_nematodes_FINAL_VERSION.pdf

Anisakiasis. [Clin Microbiol Rev. 1989] - PubMed result


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## sequeena

*sigh* I keep battling with OH on this subject. I would love to raw feed, he doesn't.

Is there a happy medium??


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## SlingDash

> As this thread states "Raw Feeding: everything you need to know!" it seems a little light on the negative aspects of this


Agreed. I did try to start such a discussion recently, but was shouted down somewhat.

It is an excellent thread, and we did try raw feeding for around two months, but simply couldn't stand our younger pups wolfing down huge lumps of sharp bone. Another thing people always say is that cooked bones are dangerous - because they splinter - yet raw bones don't. This is simply not the case, as we discovered several times when we found huge, sharp shards of bone on the floor, being swallowed, and in the packs' pooh.

This is why we stopped feeding the bones, and moved onto a high quality kibble diet, mixed with high quality moist food and plenty of tinned sardines, fresh fish, tripe, fresh liver and kidneys and other fresh offal from the butcher.

Having said that, the teeth-cleaning benefits of raw feeding speak for themselves, with a noticable difference in the amount of tartar on our older dogs' teeth when we fed 100% raw. I think this is the only REAL benefit from feeding raw, over feeding a high quality, mixed diet without the bones. Well - that, and the fact that you know EXACTLY what your dog/pack is eating.



> Is there a happy medium??


Yes - and I think we've found it as stated above.


----------



## sandymere

SlingDash said:


> Agreed. I did try to start such a discussion recently, but was shouted down somewhat.
> 
> It is an excellent thread, and we did try raw feeding for around two months, but simply couldn't stand our younger pups wolfing down huge lumps of sharp bone. Another thing people always say is that cooked bones are dangerous - because they splinter - yet raw bones don't. This is simply not the case, as we discovered several times when we found huge, sharp shards of bone on the floor, being swallowed, and in the packs' pooh.
> 
> This is why we stopped feeding the bones, and moved onto a high quality kibble diet, mixed with high quality moist food and plenty of tinned sardines, fresh fish, tripe, fresh liver and kidneys and other fresh offal from the butcher.
> 
> Having said that, the teeth-cleaning benefits of raw feeding speak for themselves, with a noticable difference in the amount of tartar on our older dogs' teeth when we fed 100% raw. I think this is the only REAL benefit from feeding raw, over feeding a high quality, mixed diet without the bones. Well - that, and the fact that you know EXACTLY what your dog/pack is eating.
> 
> Yes - and I think we've found it as stated above.


I too feed a mixture of raw and completes and understand the risk of doing this, just this morning after feeding dogs went up to change and 5 mins later Mrs shouted me down, a 3 year old lurcher collapsed on the floor, blue tongue, faint rasping breath minimal chest movement, glazed eyes. It had swallowed a lump of meat and it had gotten it stuck, it took a couple of attempts of compression of the chest to move the piece to a part of the throat where I could force it into the mouth and out. It was very scary although I have a little experience of such things. Hopefully no long term effects, brain damage is always a fear as he may have been down for the full five mins and there was very minimal air entry.


----------



## sequeena

sandymere said:


> I too feed a mixture of raw and completes and understand the risk of doing this, just this morning after feeding dogs went up to change and 5 mins later Mrs shouted me down, a 3 year old lurcher collapsed on the floor, blue tongue, faint rasping breath minimal chest movement, glazed eyes. It had swallowed a lump of meat and it had gotten it stuck, it took a couple of attempts of compression of the chest to move the piece to a part of the throat where I could force it into the mouth and out. It was very scary although I have a little experience of such things. Hopefully no long term effects, brain damage is always a fear as he may have been down for the full five mins and there was very minimal air entry.


Dear GOD. Has the dog been to the vets?


----------



## cinnamontoast

sequeena said:


> *sigh* I keep battling with OH on this subject. I would love to raw feed, he doesn't.
> 
> Is there a happy medium??


I honestly don't think there is unless you want to compromise the whole idea. You can of course get high quality kibble (Orijen, for example). You can feed raw and kibble 12 hours apart if you really want but I'm not sure of the point.



SlingDash said:


> It is an excellent thread, and we did try raw feeding for around two months, but simply couldn't stand our younger pups wolfing down huge lumps of sharp bone.
> Having said that, the teeth-cleaning benefits of raw feeding speak for themselves, with a noticable difference in the amount of tartar on our older dogs' teeth when we fed 100% raw. I think this is the only REAL benefit from feeding raw, over feeding a high quality, mixed diet without the bones. Well - that, and the fact that you know EXACTLY what your dog/pack is eating.


It's a personal choice, of course. My puppies are fine so far: I supervise feeding as I'm Mrs Paranoid but no incidents as yet, fingers crossed.

I'm honestly amazed that you say the teeth cleaning is the only real benefit of raw. It's the most natural thing for dogs, surely.

For me, it came as a bit of a shock to discover how much crap is in commercial dog food and to talk to the guy who runs the local pet cemetery who told me how many dogs he buries that die of cancer and are fed on crappy commercial stuff (like the boy in my sig).

I would never again feed my dogs anything processed, not even the best quality kibble. As you say, I can see exactly what they're eating.


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## sequeena

I want to do this so bad. I've seen the quality in their poos when they've had bones/meat/offal as treats. Their coat changes dramatically and our eldest dog had terrible yellow teeth (OH insisted on feeding her crap wet for years before I met him) and her teeth whitened up in only 2-3 days!

I will keep working on him. He wants a chest freezer anyway and if we can bulk buy stuff and defrost when we need it it will be sooooo much cheaper than any dry we buy


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## sue&harvey

sequeena said:


> I want to do this so bad. I've seen the quality in their poos when they've had bones/meat/offal as treats. Their coat changes dramatically and our eldest dog had terrible yellow teeth (OH insisted on feeding her crap wet for years before I met him) and her teeth whitened up in only 2-3 days!
> 
> I will keep working on him. He wants a chest freezer anyway and if we can bulk buy stuff and defrost when we need it it will be sooooo much cheaper than any dry we buy


My OH was like this, but eventually managed to talk her around. Only been doing it for a few day, but both boys are enjoying it, although we are all still getting used to it.

The only problem OH has with it now, is that I wouldn't let her cook up some chicken to take to work, as she was trying to nick the dogs food


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## cinnamontoast

sequeena said:


> He wants a chest freezer anyway and if we can bulk buy stuff and defrost when we need it it will be sooooo much cheaper than any dry we buy


Get an upright! Honestly, I had a huge issue trying to find a frost free one and had to get an upright eventually, plus it's much easier to see what you have.



sue&harvey said:


> The only problem OH has with it now, is that I wouldn't let her cook up some chicken to take to work, as she was trying to nick the dogs food


Euw! All the people who supply raw round here keep asking me if I'm going to cook the tripe etc. Weird. I think they imagine I'm going to feed my family with it! Quite frankly, some of the chicken portions I bought for the dogs from the supermarket are not fit for human consumption!


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## princesssaskia

SlingDash said:


> Having said that, the teeth-cleaning benefits of raw feeding speak for themselves, with a noticable difference in the amount of tartar on our older dogs' teeth when we fed 100% raw. I think this is the only REAL benefit from feeding raw, over feeding a high quality, mixed diet without the bones. Well - that, and the fact that you know EXACTLY what your dog/pack is eating.


All my RAW Fed dogs sport fantastic gleaming white healthy teeth and gums, you are correct but this is most certainly NOT the only REAL benefit from feeding RAW!

As many on this thread have commented, the make up of commercial pet food leaves a lot to be desired, even within the more upmarket and 'specialist' brands. Many are padded with cereals, unnecessary fats/oils and most importantly most have a low, poor quality meat count, using low-grade animal cuts from beasts deemed unfit for human consumption. I have read extensively in this area and the thing that upsets me most is the use in pet food of animals that are dead or dying of such things as cancerous tumours. Not only is the diseased tissue being consumed by the dog eat the pet food, but the animal was probably pumped full of chemicals by the vet prior to its demise, and thus all those toxic agents are still in his body when he is rendered for pet food. THIS FOR ME IS A REAL BENEFIT OF FEEDING RAW - I know the quality of the meat im feeding and I can minimise the toxins entering my dogs system. Now I could go on and on about all the horrific things in pet food, but there are tons of detailed books on it (read and you will be shocked) but suffice to say, you are what you eat. I am passionate about holistic practice and the one important thing to remember is that a healthy body does not harbor disease. In other words, feeding a RAW, well sourced, variety, of natural, unprocessed fresh food AND minimising (or eliminating) vaccines, chemical wormers and flea treatments is the best way to ensure my dog stays fit, healthy and disease free!!!!!

A second VERY REAL BENEFIT of RAW, and directly related to health and well-being again, is that dogs systems are designed to eat CHUNKS of meat and BONE. Kibble and other pet foods do not exercise the dogs digestive tract since they are dissolved far too easily. A dogs system requires a work out to ensure it remains in tip top order, if this does not happen the dog will eventually suffer from bowel problems, blockages, indigestion, stomach ulcers and even stomach cancerous (again, do some reading and discover for yourself - many dogs die, sometimes fairly young, of these things) A halthy digestive system has the secondary benefit to us of reducing lots of big, smelly dog poos (the result of a commercial diet)to a few, small, better-formed and much less smelling poos, and reducing flatulence (once they have adjusted to RAW of course!)

As well as healthy strong mouths and teeth, my dogs have healthy nails, clean ears and great coats and skin!!!! their breath doesnt smell, they are full of energy and their eyes are bright, all very REAL BENEFITS of feeding RAW in my opinion!!!!

Im sure others on here will be quick to add more REAL benefits!


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## SlingDash

It's not choking on meat that worries us, it's the choking on bones, or getting them stuck deep inside their systems, that does.

We lightly cook most of the meat we feed our lot, and we always cut it up into chunks before mixing it with the moist food and fish etc. We did try to feed a whole steak once, and one of the big lads tried to swallow it in one go - getting it temporarily stuck in the process - and that's why we now cut all the meat up into manageable pieces.

The opposite seems to be the case with bones, as those who feed raw say you should feed large bones (or whole carcasses), so the dogs are forced to crunch them up before swallowing. This still didn't work with ours, as they try to swallow any food they get as quickly as possible, and they were swallowing huge, sharp lumps of bone which put us off feeding a 100% raw, meaty bones diet for good.



> I am passionate about holistic practice and the one important thing to remember is that a healthy body does not harbor disease. In other words, feeding a RAW, well sourced, variety, of natural, unprocessed fresh food AND minimising (or eliminating) vaccines, chemical wormers and flea treatments is the best way to ensure my dog stays fit, healthy and disease free!!!!!


So you don't worm your dogs, or get them vaccinated against potentially fatal infections? Perhaps you do, but with that statement, you seem to be recommending that people feed raw, and DON'T do it themselves? That is highly irresponsible as far as I (and I'm sure the vast majority of other people) am concerned. The best way to ensure a dog stays "disease free" is to at least vaccinate against the most dangerous infections. To state that feeding a raw diet negates any dangers from such diseases is a very bold statement that simply cannot be backed-up by any evidence. Evidence to the contrary, along with years of scientific medical research and the routine vaccination of dogs, humans and other animals, would suggest quite the opposite in fact.

'Healthy bodies' do not 'harbour disease' by definition. Any living thing is at risk of contracting or developing a plethora of diseases, and I agree that feeding a healthy diet goes a small way to fighting such infections, but to state that feeding a raw, meaty bones diet is any more beneficial than a high quality commercially prepared diet, is just not true.



> A dogs system requires a work out to ensure it remains in tip top order, if this does not happen the dog will eventually suffer from bowel problems, blockages, indigestion, stomach ulcers and even stomach cancerous (again, do some reading and discover for yourself - many dogs die, sometimes fairly young, of these things) A halthy digestive system has the secondary benefit to us of reducing lots of big, smelly dog poos (the result of a commercial diet)to a few, small, better-formed and much less smelling poos, and reducing flatulence (once they have adjusted to RAW of course!)


Can you provide evidence to back such statements up?


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## princesssaskia

cinammontoast said:


> Quite frankly, some of the chicken portions I bought for the dogs from the supermarket are not fit for human consumption!


Vacuum packed meat from supermarket is better than canned and kibble, but sourcing fresh, unpacked meat from butcher or farm is even better!


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## princesssaskia

sandymere said:


> I too feed a mixture of raw and completes and understand the risk of doing this, just this morning after feeding dogs went up to change and 5 mins later Mrs shouted me down, a 3 year old lurcher collapsed on the floor, blue tongue, faint rasping breath minimal chest movement, glazed eyes. It had swallowed a lump of meat and it had gotten it stuck, it took a couple of attempts of compression of the chest to move the piece to a part of the throat where I could force it into the mouth and out. It was very scary although I have a little experience of such things. Hopefully no long term effects, brain damage is always a fear as he may have been down for the full five mins and there was very minimal air entry.


This is exactly why its important to feed the right size pieces of meat or bone for your dog and why I personally choose to supervise my dogs eat every meal! I would not allow a small child to eat alone, and i would cut his/her food into sensible pieces, its common sense to me! (no offense meant!)


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## SlingDash

It's not choking on meat that worries us, it's the choking on bones, or getting them stuck deep inside their systems, that does.

We lightly cook most of the meat we feed our lot, and we always cut it up into chunks before mixing it with the moist food and fish etc. We did try to feed a whole steak once, and one of the big lads tried to swallow it in one go - getting it temporarily stuck in the process - and that's why we now cut all the meat up into manageable pieces.

The opposite seems to be the case with bones, as those who feed raw say you should feed large bones (or whole carcasses), so the dogs are forced to crunch them up before swallowing. This still didn't work with ours, as they try to swallow any food they get as quickly as possible, and they were swallowing huge, sharp lumps of bone which put us off feeding a 100% raw, meaty bones diet for good.



> I am passionate about holistic practice and the one important thing to remember is that a healthy body does not harbor disease. In other words, feeding a RAW, well sourced, variety, of natural, unprocessed fresh food AND minimising (or eliminating) vaccines, chemical wormers and flea treatments is the best way to ensure my dog stays fit, healthy and disease free!!!!!


So you don't worm your dogs, or get them vaccinated against potentially fatal infections? Perhaps you do, but with that statement, you seem to be recommending that people feed raw, and DON'T do it themselves? That is highly irresponsible as far as I (and I'm sure the vast majority of other people) am concerned. The best way to ensure a dog stays "disease free" is to at least vaccinate against the most dangerous infections. To state that feeding a raw diet negates any dangers from such diseases is a very bold statement that simply cannot be backed-up by any evidence. Evidence to the contrary, along with years of scientific medical research and the routine vaccination of dogs, humans and other animals, would suggest quite the opposite in fact.

'Healthy bodies' do not 'harbour disease' by definition. Any living thing is at risk of contracting or developing a plethora of diseases, and I agree that feeding a healthy diet goes a small way to fighting such infections, but to state that feeding a raw, meaty bones diet is any more beneficial than a high quality commercially prepared diet, is just not true.



> A dogs system requires a work out to ensure it remains in tip top order, *if this does not happen the dog will eventually suffer from bowel problems, blockages, indigestion, stomach ulcers and even stomach cancerous* (again, do some reading and discover for yourself - many dogs die, sometimes fairly young, of these things) A halthy digestive system has the secondary benefit to us of reducing lots of big, smelly dog poos (the result of a commercial diet)to a few, small, better-formed and much less smelling poos, and reducing flatulence (once they have adjusted to RAW of course!)


Can you provide evidence to back such statements up? That sounds like something you'd read on a lot of pro raw-feeding websites to me. You simply cannot say that not feeding raw will cause such diseases, or that those dogs that have died young, have done so because they weren't fed a raw diet. A great many living organisms are susceptible to cancer of one form or another, and we simply do not know exactly why.


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## cinnamontoast

princesssaskia said:


> Vacuum packed meat from supermarket is better than canned and kibble, but sourcing fresh, unpacked meat from butcher or farm is even better!


I agree and am delighted to have found a butcher that supplies carcasses and his cousin who supplies tripe and mince. Sorted!

I'm a big advocate of the raw diet: Jake (sig) died in August: he had spinal tumours and also a large mass in his stomach. I wasn't in a fit state to discuss why he got cancer with the vet but years ago, a cancer nurse told me that if she ever got cancer, she would go back to basics, raw, unprocessed food and remove anything commercially prepared from her diet.

If a medically trained person is telling me this, then I think it's only fair to give my dogs the best and most natural food I can. We can choose to eat crap, our animals don't have that luxury and only get what we give them.


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## SlingDash

> I'm a big advocate of the raw diet: Jake (sig) died in August: he had spinal tumours and also a large mass in his stomach. I wasn't in a fit state to discuss why he got cancer with the vet but *years ago, a cancer nurse told me that if she ever got cancer, she would go back to basics, raw, unprocessed food and remove anything commercially prepared from her diet*.


Don't you think people who are unlucky enough to develop cancer of one sort or another have tried this? Do you think it cures people of cancer to do so?

If it did, then cancer would no longer be a problem in the world. 

Such comments are nonsense. We neither know exactly why certain living organisms get cancer in the first place, or how to cure it.


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## katiefranke

I have been too busy with work this week to be online - cant answer now but will go back over and answer what I can this week when I get a sec.

But re the latest point - Im not sure who said there were a lot of *research papers *on raw feeding itself? I havent come across a lot. There are however a lot of research articles available on a dogs digestive system, physiology etc to understand how everything is used by the body and what affects the wrong food sources have etc.

There are also a huge number of items referenced in Tom Lonsdales books which I have mentioned initially and a number of times throughout the thread. The references in there are very interesting and I would recommend anyone wanting to know more to have a look through.

Re *negative aspects of raw feeding*, I think many are a matter of opinion. The delta society link posted about salmonella is rather dubious, as the delta society has strong links now with one of the major commercial pet food manufacturers and since then has started on this route...lots of info online about it - i will try and find it again to post.

Salmonella contaminations happen all the time in commercial food!! Just google it to see the latest!

Salmonella and a whole host of other bacteria are naturally occurring in a dogs' intestines, it just isnt an issue for most of them so nobody would know...my suggestion is, dont touch or let your kids touch dog poo!!

Also I have found that many negative aspects only occur when raw food is fed in the wrong way - this also reduces the benefits...like feeding too small pieces, ground food for the whole diet, too much bone etc. But this is all down to how things are fed, not the diet itself.

Can you name some other negative aspects that I havent mentioned in the initial pros and cons? To me the only negative has been the initial annoyance of having to prepare everything but I dont even think about it now.

I really do feel that most others are down to user error and can be rectified by tweaking the diet itself, or they are a perceived problem (rather than actual) ...

Many things that are perceived as 'negative' are actually addressed here: http://www.rawfed.com/myths/
which is what I reference in the early part of the thread, and why I havent listed them myself as I dont see the point of re-writing them.

Just a few which have been brought up:

MYTH: Bacteria in raw meat is dangerous to my pet - http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html
MYTH: Raw-fed dogs pose a serious health risk to humans - http://rawfed.com/myths/zoonotic.html
MYTH: My pet will get parasites from the raw meat - http://rawfed.com/myths/parasites.html
MYTH: Because of the risks of bones, ground raw diets are better - http://rawfed.com/myths/ground.html
MYTH: Raw diets are not very digestible - http://rawfed.com/myths/digestible.html
MYTH: Feeding raw meat makes a dog bloodthirsty - http://rawfed.com/myths/bloodthirsty.html

If you would like to post on thoughts around the 'negative points of raw feeding' that *havent yet been covered*, please do...there are going to be some, as there might be with any way of feeding but I think we have covered the majority throughout the thread already...

I would also like to point out that this is about all the things you need to know about how to feed a raw diet... I am happy to discuss issues people have come across, and have done throughout the thread as they come up...


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## cinnamontoast

SlingDash said:


> Don't you think people who are unlucky enough to develop cancer of one sort or another have tried this? Do you think it cures people of cancer to do so?
> 
> If it did, then cancer would no longer be a problem in the world.
> 
> Such comments are nonsense. We neither know exactly why certain living organisms get cancer in the first place, or how to cure it.


How very rude you are. I find it utterly unnecessary to convey that you think I'm brainless. I am not making sweeping statements saying that raw is the only way: I think it's the best choice for my dogs.

I don't think you can 'cure' cancer in this way but I think you'd go a fair way to preventing it in the first place if you were to start off with less processed/raw food.


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## dagny0823

SlingDash said:


> Don't you think people who are unlucky enough to develop cancer of one sort or another have tried this? Do you think it cures people of cancer to do so?
> 
> If it did, then cancer would no longer be a problem in the world.
> 
> Such comments are nonsense. We neither know exactly why certain living organisms get cancer in the first place, or how to cure it.


There are documented cases of people who have been diagnosed with cancer and when treatment really wasn't helping, they decided to just wing it and try a completely non-processed diet. I wish I could remember the name of the chef here in the states who did just that and was pronounced cancer free after her dietary change (not the following week---it took time, but she got completely better). She's got a cookbook, she lives in Philadelphia---I just can't remember her name which I know would add some substance to my comment :frown:. Anyway, it can work and makes sense.

I do have an organic farmer friend who suffers horribly from psoriasis. Nothing helps him: pills, creams, shots. So, in desperation, he tried a macrobiotic diet. He said it was awful and terribly limiting for someone who loves rich food and wine, but darned if it didn't clear up his skin!


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## cinnamontoast

And can we mention the Jamie Oliver thing whereby he had one family that normally fed their kids crap eek and he got them to make everything from scratch and within a month, the kids' teachers noted an increase in concentration and everyone noted improved behaviour. 

Was it on here or Horse and Hound about a dog being fed a particular commercial brand and being full of bounce immediately afterwards or more likely full of e numbers and colourings etc? 

I don't care how high quality commercial food is, it's not, IMO, better than non-processed food.


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## dagny0823

cinammontoast said:


> And can we mention the Jamie Oliver thing whereby he had one family that normally fed their kids crap eek and he got them to make everything from scratch and within a month, the kids' teachers noted an increase in concentration and everyone noted improved behaviour.
> 
> Was it on here or Horse and Hound about a dog being fed a particular commercial brand and being full of bounce immediately afterwards or more likely full of e numbers and colourings etc?
> 
> I don't care how high quality commercial food is, it's not, IMO, better than non-processed food.


I agree wholeheartedly. I try not to eat processed food myself and I really want to go in the same direction for my pets. I grew up with all the myths about kibble being so good and balanced and teethcleaning, and then because we have one tubberoo of a cat, did a lot of research to see how to thin her down and discovered I'd been sold a load of rubbish. From there, I've been doing nothing but reading about raw, pros and cons and it just makes sense to me. I find it hard to believe that what we eat--humans and animals--doesn't immediately and deeply affect how we feel and how healthy we are. Food is our fuel. If you give a car watery gas, it won't run right. It might run still, but it won't be at its best. Same with organisms. Optimal quality food means optimal performance, if you will.


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## cinnamontoast

dagny0823 said:


> Food is our fuel. If you give a car watery gas, it won't run right. It might run still, but it won't be at its best. Same with organisms. Optimal quality food means optimal performance, if you will.


Agree with all of that. I wish someone would feed me nothing but good food and shop/cook for me! Now the boys are a good size, I need to tackle me!


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## WelshOneEmma

Has anybody found that there dogs have 'gone off' raw? We tried our pup on the chicken (she loved it) and have slowly tried her on others, most of which she liked. As the months have drawn on, she refuses to eat raw, only raw chicken wings or the legs (but when she gets to the meaty parts, wont eat any more) and will try to eat the cats food. She seems to want packet and biscuits over the raw? Anyone dealt with this? Could she just be getting bored of raw?


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## katiefranke

WelshOneEmma said:


> Has anybody found that there dogs have 'gone off' raw? We tried our pup on the chicken (she loved it) and have slowly tried her on others, most of which she liked. As the months have drawn on, she refuses to eat raw, only raw chicken wings or the legs (but when she gets to the meaty parts, wont eat any more) and will try to eat the cats food. She seems to want packet and biscuits over the raw? Anyone dealt with this? Could she just be getting bored of raw?


Sorry havent come across this - but then I feed the cats raw too! I can honestly say maggie has never refused a meal I have given her since starting on raw?

But then I think it also depends on how strict you are - if she ever leavs something, do you offer her something else? This can happen with commercial foods too and makes for a fussy eater - it becomes habit as they know if they hold out something else will come along.

What other meats do you feed? Remember all dogs are individuals and some will like certain meats more than others...for instance, I know that maggie will always take the pork over other meats and seems to really not like venison. I dont mind, as venison is expensive anyway, so just give her other foods instead.

Could there be any other reason why she would have gone off her food? Are you maybe feeding a little too much and so she wont eat it all?

I guess though also it could just be that she wants what she cant have - she is a dog after all! I guess if I was offered a healthy meal of a salad and poached salmon but could see and smell that my husband was enjoying a tasy plate of chip shop cod and chips, then I might prefer that...


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## delightfuldior

WelshOneEmma said:


> Has anybody found that there dogs have 'gone off' raw? We tried our pup on the chicken (she loved it) and have slowly tried her on others, most of which she liked. As the months have drawn on, she refuses to eat raw, only raw chicken wings or the legs (but when she gets to the meaty parts, wont eat any more) and will try to eat the cats food. She seems to want packet and biscuits over the raw? Anyone dealt with this? Could she just be getting bored of raw?


funny ya shay that, my lhasa gemma is the FUSSIEST most ungrateful monkey ever when it comes to food and treats. Also very idle. You have to shove the treat in her mouth as she snubs it!

I've been feeding raw 4 weeks now and started giving fleshy chunks in the AM to brak the day up and she sniffs it and walks off!!! :frown: whats all that about???! give her a wing though and she gorges it lol


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## delightfuldior

This has happened twice now since feeding the RMB for the last few weeks. Joey is a wolfer but he does chomp his bones down OK. Anyhow a couple of weeks ago he had finished his bone meal (usually chicken on bone in PM) and a few minutes later he started yelping.
I did a slight Heimlich Maneuver and he stopped and seemed OK. I checked his poo for bleeding but none.
Then this morning I gave him his AM meat (beef, pork, tripe chunks) and again, within minutes he started yelping again!!! I did the Heimlich Maneuver on him and hit his back and he yelped even more.. so I am thinking he either had a bit of bone lodged from the previous PM meal and the meat this morning moved it and it hurt him or he had the horrible lodged food pain (what we call a bit of indegestion when we scoff our food). He seemed to yelp for ages and ages and became quite distressed . I gave him some cool bio yoghurt to sooth his throat or whatever it was that was sore and he soon came round.
I am soooooooooooo frightened that he may get internal bleeding from feeding the RMB. Its strange hoe he yelps minutes after eating. I am gunna watch his poo for any bleeding.
Any more suggestions or help would be really apprecaited.


something has just sprung to mind. I felt that one of his glands was up yesterday, never noticed it before. I think it was his gland (under chin). Could this be owt to do with it?


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## SlingDash

> There are documented cases of people who have been diagnosed with cancer and when treatment really wasn't helping, they decided to just wing it and try a completely non-processed diet. I wish I could remember the name of the chef here in the states who did just that and was pronounced cancer free after her dietary change (not the following week---it took time, but she got completely better). She's got a cookbook, she lives in Philadelphia---I just can't remember her name which I know would add some substance to my comment . Anyway, it can work and makes sense.


Some cancers (like many other diseases) do spontaneously 'cure' themselves, because the human body is an amazing machine.

Saying such things is no different than those hundreds of thousands of poor people who travel to Lourdes to pray for a cure for whatever terrible affliction they are suffering from, and having the tiny, MINISCULE minority claiming that the lord above cured them. 

I repeat what I said before: If this really was the case, cancer would no longer be a problem in the world. It would be on the front page of every newspaper on the planet, and scientists would be leaping on creating a magic pill the instant it became clear that this is the way to beat cancer.



> How very rude you are. I find it utterly unnecessary to convey that you think I'm brainless. I am not making sweeping statements saying that raw is the only way: I think it's the best choice for my dogs.


When did I say you were brainless exactly? You have decided to take offence at what I said, and that is your prerogative. I'm merely putting forward my own opinion on the subject, and I don't believe for one minute that I got personal in any of my comments. You are free to feed your dogs whatever you wish, just don't claim that feeding otherwise can prevent or cure cancers (without evidence to back that claim up), or that feeding a raw diet is THE best and only way to feed all dogs - which is the general gist of what you're saying.


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## katiefranke

SlingDash said:


> You are free to feed your dogs whatever you wish, just don't claim that feeding otherwise can prevent or cure cancers (without evidence to back that claim up), or that feeding a raw diet is THE best and only way to feed all dogs - which is the general gist of what you're saying.


Guys, please can we get back on topic? This has gone slightly off and I think perhaps comments have been taken a little to heart when maybe they were not meant in that way.

Please remember that this is a thread about how to feed a raw diet, so obviously the majority of people in here are going to feel that raw feeding is THE best way to feed, which they are completely in their right to and should be free to state as much if that is their belief...as *it is of course anyones right to feel that raw is not the best way to feed, but then if so, I would kindly ask you to start your own threads on this in the main Health & Nutrition section if this is what you feel, as it is clearly off topic for a thread all about the ins and outs of feeding a raw diet.*

Obviously questions and discussion around any issues that arise and problems faced whilst feeding a raw diet contribute to the thread, but *this thread is not really for debating whether raw is the way to go, as one would assume that you have already come to the conclusion that it is or are verging on it if you are reading this thread in the first place...*

Thank you for your cooperation.


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## katiefranke

delightfuldior said:


> This has happened twice now since feeding the RMB for the last few weeks. Joey is a wolfer but he does chomp his bones down OK.


It sounds to me like the pieces of meat you are giving him are too small if he is able to swallow them in this way...you are possibly right in that it is like eating something ourselves and it is getting stuck part way down which is quite uncomfortable.

It sounds like it is happening with the chunks of boneless meats - so can you cut them bigger or feed in one large piece? I am assuming you are not cutting the bone-in meals, so you shouldnt have anything to worry about with these if you are feeding them large enough and you say he is crunching them up properly.

I would not suggest doing any sort of heimlich manoeuvre unless you know what you are doing though, as this could hurt him.

Re the gland you mention - where abouts is it? Is it just under the lower jaw in the centre? This is usually a little lump of a hair follicle where a couple of whiskers come out...or do you mean further down on the throat? If the former, I dont think this would have any link...if it is the latter, I would get this checked out by your vet. If it is indeed a gland in the throat, this could be inflamed for a number of reasons (unrelated to the food) but the food is pushing on it as it is going down and causing discomfort...


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## sandymere

Katiefranke thanks for your reply, healthy discussion on the pros and cones is I feel important with a heading that claims "Raw Feeding everything you need to know!" rather than raw feeding a converts discussion group.
Oh dear the Myths site though, such bad science I love it :lol:, when I first saw this site I thought it was a micky take but it turned out to be real! The self contradictions, infant school science and make it up attitude is genuinely funny. I love the way they refer to the research showing BARF fed dogs having greater bacterial loads then later stating they have less bacteria or the increased longevity being nothing to do with diet but improved medical treatment but ill health is all due to diet. And the bit about wolves not eating the stomach contents of their prey could only be written by someone who hasn't really looked at the subject of wolves diet.
A quick quote to show what I mean. 
"_So they say dogs are living longer. And indeed people can step forward and say they have 16-year-old Golden Retrievers and 14-year-old German Shepherds and 11-year-old Great Danes. But what about the quality of life for these old dogs? They have horrible teeth and rancid breath, severe arthritis or degenerative joint disease, cancerous or benign tumors, diabetes, kidney failure, nasty greasy coats, and soft fatty bodies lacking muscle tone_." (RAW FEEDING)
Shall we work backwards along the list:
1 "_soft fatty bodies lacking muscle tone_." How is this kibble related? This will be due to lack of exercise and eating to much, common sense really.
2 "_nasty greasy coats_" Not sure what this is based on, made up I expect, don't see lots of nasty greasy coats on well kept healthy dogs whatever there feeding regime, any evidence? No just made up rubbish.
3 "_kidney failure_" How is kidney failure caused by kibble? Another made up bit of rubbish?
4 "_diabetes_" Now anyone with knowledge of canine diabetes would know that late onset type one is the commonest type in canines with a familial incidence and not diet related. Type two is sometimes found and has an increased incidence with obesity which is due to over feeding rather than any particular feeding regime. 
5, "_cancerous or benign tumors_" how is this linked to kibble? It's just make it up time again. If one was to look at current available evidence it would suggest that a varied balanced diet is recommended.
6 "_severe arthritis or degenerative joint disease_" The largest incidence of arthritis in dogs, by the way arthritis is degenerative joint disease, is osteoarthritis and surly this is due to ware and tear and is likely to be increased with age so an older dog would be expected to have an increased incidence. Whats diet to do with it?
7 "_horrible teeth and rancid breath_" Bad teeth may well be linked to diet and a soft diet be it meat , tinned or any other can lead to increased plaque build up, this in term to bad breath etc and then to more systemic health problems. Dried completes are likely to reduce the incidence and giving something to chew such as a bone or commercially manufactured chews will further reduce this. So a soft RAW or commercial diet may lead to dental disease.
Another quote "_I put forth that it is the kibble, not the raw meat, that causes bacterial problems. Kibble in the intestine not only irritates the lining of the bowels but also provides the perfect warm, wet environment with plenty of undigested sugars and starches as food for bacteria. This is why thousands of processed food-fed animals suffer from from a condition called Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth, or SIBO (Lonsdale, T. 2001. Raw Meaty Bones. pg 85). Raw meaty bones, however, create a very inhospitable environment for bacteria, as RMBs are easily digestible and have no carbohydrates, starches, or sugars to feed the bacteria._"
How does kibble irate the bowels, they give no evidence? Aren't all bowels warm wet environments? Why do studies of stool culture from raw fed dogs have greater bacterial loads than those from kibble fed. Basically it's just utter nonsense. 
I could go on but it gets a little boring I'll just add this site links to anti vaccination sites which in light of the current outbreak of parvo killing numerous litters is pretty poor.


----------



## WelshOneEmma

katiefranke said:


> Sorry havent come across this - but then I feed the cats raw too! I can honestly say maggie has never refused a meal I have given her since starting on raw?
> 
> But then I think it also depends on how strict you are - if she ever leavs something, do you offer her something else? This can happen with commercial foods too and makes for a fussy eater - it becomes habit as they know if they hold out something else will come along.
> 
> What other meats do you feed? Remember all dogs are individuals and some will like certain meats more than others...for instance, I know that maggie will always take the pork over other meats and seems to really not like venison. I dont mind, as venison is expensive anyway, so just give her other foods instead.
> 
> Could there be any other reason why she would have gone off her food? Are you maybe feeding a little too much and so she wont eat it all?
> 
> I guess though also it could just be that she wants what she cant have - she is a dog after all! I guess if I was offered a healthy meal of a salad and poached salmon but could see and smell that my husband was enjoying a tasy plate of chip shop cod and chips, then I might prefer that...


We gave her food and she refused it, and went hungry rather than eat what we had given. So far we have tried her on pork (refused), lamb (will only eat if cooked), chicken wings (eats them), chicken quarter (eats the leg bit only, leaves the rest), chicken thighs (refused), oxtail (ate that), rabbit (refused), chicken breast (refused), salmon (refused). She is happy to chew on the cow rib bone that the farm shop gave us, but thats about it. If you leave it for her, she refuses to eat it and will go hungry. The thighs that she leaves she has taken to hiding round the house so it looks like she eats them. She just wont eat it. We tried her on Applaws and she loves those, but the OH really wants to to stick to raw. Even cats are refusing raw. Will take the odd bit of chicken but thats it.


----------



## sandymere

To BARF or not to BARF?

BARF or RAW, well call it RAW for ease, is a fashionable way to feed dogs but is there any reason why it may be better than any other type of feeding? If I post in the negative its not because I intrinsically disagree with feeding dogs raw food, it is part of my own dogs diet, but rather that I disagree with the idea that it should be fed exclusively. It seems to me that many of the claims made to promote this exclusivity are based on little above hearsay, pseudo science and a Disneyfied idea of nature. Google RAW diet and youll find a plethora of sites promoting holistic this and homeopathic that but little in the way of science or professional backing. Then there is the evangelical belief of the followers that breach no dissent and attack the non-believer at every opportunity with avowed belief in the RAW cure for all of the supposed man made canine ills. 

So lets start with nature, the idea is that whats natural is best. Well what is natural: disease, injury, starvation etc, and un-natural: medicine, physiotherapy, science etc. So its natural for a dog to die of parvo and un-natural to inoculate against it, or its unnatural for a dog with an un-descended testicle to have it removed to reduce future problems and natural to leave it to go on to develop an increased risk of cancer. These are just two examples, Im sure you can think of many more, and they demonstrate a physical abnormality and an illness process, both of which are natural but who would say that nature is best . So rather than natural shall we call it inherited abilities and forget the idea that what is natural is intrinsically preferable.

Dogs have a plethora of inherited abilities varying from recent adaptations like an increased herding instinct in a collie or the physical attributes that produce the speed of a greyhound to the far older basic biochemistry that comes from a shared ancestry with all life on the planet. These abilities have allowed man and the dog to coexist when at times it would seem that we have trouble coexisting with our own species. So to the crux RAW feeding is best because it is natural, why? Both dogs and humans can and do digest cooked food extremely well and often more easily than raw. Neither species has had time too evolve to eating a cooked diet in the few thousand years that we have been eating it beyond some very minor adaptations. What we have inherited is a natural ability to utilize a great variety of food sources that includes this un-natural cooked food. So if by cooking we reduce bacterial contamination, increase palatability and, to a degree, ease of digestion then to refuse its use on not natural grounds is a little like refusing the Parvo inoculation as its not natural. So if we put to one side the Disneyfied idea of its not natural is there other reasons why cooked is bad? Some oft used reason for RAW is that cooking destroys nutrients, causes cancers and tooth decay. But what does it really do to the food and its nutrients.

Nutrients, in simple terms, can be described as macro (big) protein, fats and sugars and micro (small) vitamins and minerals. Meat supplies micro and macro nutrients, the macro are protein,fat and a small amount of sugars. Even lean meat from farm animals contains a fair amount of fat; in beef around 40% of its calories will come from fat. This fat will be used as energy either direct as fat or converted to sugar. The protein will be broken down and used for repair/growth or it can be converted for use as energy. Proteins are built from amino acids and these come in different types, some are classed as essential and the rest non essential. The difference is in there ability to be rebuilt into new proteins i.e. essentials can be built into any protein whereas non essential cannot. If you only eat none essentials you will lack some of the building blocks needed so a diet must include all the 10 essential amino acids to be adequate. One way of ensuring this is to eat animal protein as this contains all of them, against some vegetable proteins being short. There are many vegans that get all their and their dogs essential amino acids from beans and pulses etc but it takes more effort than I would want to use when all I need is a bit of meat. Both Raw and cooked meats are well digested by dogs and will supply a good amount of the nutrients they contain, there are draw backs such as contamination, this can be from bacteria, such as salmonella, or chemicals such as antibiotics/hormones, used to treat the animal source prior to death. The risks of chemical contamination, I hope, dont need to be highlighted but the bacterial risk is a less well known area.

Carbohydrates are complex sugars and it is often claimed that dogs are not able to digest this food source but in truth that is nonsense, oft quoted is wolves dont eat the stomach contents of their prey, or they are carnivores. Wolfs digest carbs very well if they are presented in a viable form, an example is an Artic wolf eating lemmings throughout the summer these are eaten whole stomach and all. The stomach contents of this type of prey animal are whole and part digested seeds etc and make up a fair proportion of a rodents total calorific content, these would be wasted calories if not utilised by the wolf, in a similar fashion timber wolves depend to an equally large degree on rodents such as field voles for their summer diet. So our dogs have an inherited ability to deal with carbs and when presented in a viable form give good digestion rates, basically the dog/wolf is not an obligate carnivore like a cat but has omnivorous capabilities. Through these sources the dog can gain not only the sugars but also valuable fats, protein and micro nutrients. The three food sources are common to both raw and cooked foods but as has been mentioned need to be presented to the digestive system in a usable form i.e. a lump of wood is made of carbohydrate but there are very few animals with the digestive system capable of breaking down and utilising these calories. Cooking in part has been offered as an aid to this problem and is a little easier to arrange than lemming digestion.

The last of the three food types are fats these are found in varying degrees in meat from small amounts in a wild rabbit to large amounts in a farm reared pig. Fats are used for a number of processes but for this essay we will stick with their use as an energy source. Fat has 9 calories per gram against 4 for carbs or protein so it is a dense form of fuel that forms a major part of supplying low speed, stamina type energy needs. The fats found in meat are not the only source of this nutrient there is another available source that is relatively cheap and available in the form of vegetable oils. Vegetable oils are not often met by wolves but they are well digested by dogs and, in the main, they have a bonus of being high in linolic acid which is very important to growth and general health, when lacking in puppies it leads to retarded growth, failure to thrive and skin problems. So vegetable oils are both a cheap and also good quality form of fat that dogs can very easily assimilate in exactly the same way as they would an animal fat, again perhaps not natural but defiantly useful. 

So how does how does cooked versus raw stand up? It has already been mentioned that a common accusation is that cooking destroys nutrients and the equally common answer is that cooking helps with digestion. Well as with most augments they are both right. It all depends on how and what things are cooked, there is evidence that cooking increases absorption of many micro nutrient, especially in vegetable matter, but also that it might slightly slow digestion of meat if excessive heat is used. What needs to be considered is if this will affect the diet to any real degree or are the percentages just academic rather than real. If an animal is short of nutrients then there may be an argument for choosing to cook some things and not others but for the average dog in the UK, USA or Ireland there is no reason why they should have any shortfall. So if you have a portion of meat then either cooked or raw it will supply a good quantity of its macro and micro nutrients to the dogs digestive system. Personally I feed meat raw, as mentioned above butchers waste and rabbits etc, not because raw is intrinsically better but just the cooking is unnecessary in most situations. If a supply of cooked meat became available I would have no hesitation in feeding it as an alternative or alongside the raw and as I use a percentage of complete food it could be said I already do. 

I use a variety of commercial complete foods and I have gotten good results; I must say that they have never been used as the only food but in truth for the average pet dog I find no reason why they shouldnt be. They are more than adequate in the three food groups and necessary micro nutrients. There is an ongoing discussion about price and quality but at study by Krogdahl et al suggests that there is more likely a variance in quality through brand rather than price and a study they undertook showed all the brands tested exceeded minimum requirements. Carpenter looked are the digestibility of low grade, mechanically recovered meat such as might be used in pet feeds, or sausages for human consumption, and found that other than the expected variance through increased cartilage type material there was little relevant difference in digestibility from other meat sources. Dogs getting home prepared meals should also have adequate and balanced macro and micro nutrients if the owner has a realistic knowledge of feeding and if not then I would have no hesitation in recommending using such a preparatory dog food. The claims of them poising dogs and causing long term health problems seem hard to believe when over the period of there use dogs lifespans and general health has improved. This is likely in part due to better health care but if dog food was as dangerous as some would claim they would surely have a noticeable negative impact on general health and well being. There is growing evidence that burning food may have some negative health benefits but the rendering process of most pet food does not reach those sorts of temperatures. Some other negatives that are sited are dental problems but these are down to eating a soft diet rather than the ingredients so a dog fed on raw pet mince is as likely to get plaque build up as will an animal on any wet soft diet, feeding dried food will limit this to an extent. To further avoid this problem there needs to be opportunity to chew a harder object to reduce the amount of soft feed sticking to teeth and to break off plaque. Bones are very good for the latter and I feed raw bones once or twice a week but it must be born in mind that there are risks in feeding bones, even raw, and the owner needs to decide for themselves if it is worth it. There are alternatives in the form of chews etc available in most pet shops that in theory should do a similar job but not having tried them I would not like to judge.

Lastly there is the dietary effects on performance, feeding a raw only diet will give little in the way of adjustability, it may well suit the lifestyle of a wolf but not so the modern dog. Modern domestic dogs perform a great variety of jobs from the extremes of a long distance sled dog racing over hundreds of kilometres to that of a greyhound sprinting over 500mertres and their dietary needs will vary accordingly. One problem is in the amount of protein, and this goes with high protein completes as well as RAW. Various authors have stated that greyhounds run fastest on medium protein diets and Hill suggests, 25% protein, 30% fat and 45% carbs, whereas long distance huskies will need high fat, higher protein and only minimal carbohydrate, such as 35% protein, 45% fat and only 20% carbs. These authors suggest that increasing dietary protein to the greyhounds slowed racing. Hill suggest that carbs are useful as a recovery aid to restock glucose stores more efficiently and faster than is possible through protein and fat alone and this is seconded by Wakshlag. The carbs that are being advocated are not available in a raw only diet, although as stated are probably part of a wolfs diet, and to exclude them would be rather like excluding an energy/electrolyte drink to Paula Radcliff because its not  natural although it will decrease race times and aid in her recovery process.

So in conclusion the RAW type diets sell books and in the world of those keen on all things natural in a Disney type way may well suit their sensibilities but in the real world then it is hard to see any real purpose or reason to such a restrictive regime. It is supported with an almost evangelical following that seems to breach no dissent but has no real science to back it beyond the all things natural brigade. I specialise in sight hound types and have for the past 40 years and these type of dogs especially have moved beyond their wolf ancestors in both physical structure and use so why oh why should they eat a wolfs diet, it doesnt apply to their current energy requirements, especially when the raw diets being suggested arent even the true diet of wolves?
References posted/pmd on request.


Appendix A
Recent studies have highlighted the high incidence of gastric ulceration and gastritis in working dogs studies of this group of dogs suggest that most working dogs may have at least some risk of developing exercise-associated gastro-intestinal disease (Davis). This will lead to increased permeability of the lower gastroenterial tract, this born in the light of recent gastroenterological thought, relating increase permeability with increased incidence of acute gastritis, you can imagine that a high bacterial load can only increase likelihood and extent of this problem. Some dogs may carry a high bacterial load naturally but there is an increased incidence with animals that are suffering with diarrhoea (Stanley). These bacteria are likely from the diet and include serious pathogens such as salmonella, likely from uncooked chicken. Clostridial spp and Campylobacter spp are also commonly found. Stanley states Campylobacter can survive for days in surface water and as long as 4 weeks in feces. The duration of excretion in infected dogs and cats can be as long as 4 months and infected animals should be quarantined away from children during this period. So careful storing and prep is a must for anyone with children if feeding raw pet quality meats to their dogs. An alternative would be human quality such as wild rabbits that have been properly frozen straight away and then defrosted in the fridge, basically as you would for your own consumption. The other obvious choice is cooking which will of course reduce the incidence of bacterial contamination and for the majority of owners this has already been done for them in the preparation of dried or tinned feeds. Personally I feed a percentage of raw butchers waste which has not been stored in ideal conditions and reading into this subject has made me think.


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## Plabebob

Wow thanks for that, very informative. As with most things in life I believe that moderation is the key. I don't think there's any area in which you can follow a hard & fast rule all the time & feeding the dog is no different. Whilst I obviously don't have as much specific knowledge as you, you've supported my current belief that there are pros & cons to both sides. 

I feed RAW now because I like to know exactly what my dog is eating (I do the same for myself - no pre-packaged stuff). I don't see any point in giving him unnecessary ingredients, but on the other hand he eats mud/poo/snails ets on a daily basis anyway & he's never had any adverse effects from them!


-------------

EDIT: Forgot to add - I also have an irrational hatred of large companies brought on by growing up around hippies... I'm sure that has something to do with it too! Not to mention the animal testing which is just horrific for companies that claim to care about dogs.


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## sandymere

Plabebob said:


> Wow thanks for that, very informative. As with most things in life I believe that moderation is the key. I don't think there's any area in which you can follow a hard & fast rule all the time & feeding the dog is no different. Whilst I obviously don't have as much specific knowledge as you, you've supported my current belief that there are pros & cons to both sides.
> 
> I feed RAW now because I like to know exactly what my dog is eating (I do the same for myself - no pre-packaged stuff). I don't see any point in giving him unnecessary ingredients, but on the other hand he eats mud/poo/snails ets on a daily basis anyway & he's never had any adverse effects from them!
> 
> -------------
> 
> EDIT: Forgot to add - I also have an irrational hatred of large companies brought on by growing up around hippies... I'm sure that has something to do with it too! Not to mention the animal testing which is just horrific for companies that claim to care about dogs.


If it's "poo" from herbivores ie sheep, cows etc then add cooked veg such as cabbage to the diet a few times a week and it will likely stop, though if the behavior is ingrained into adulthood it may not. With pups/saplings a few weeks of this seems to stop it, it may be they are after certain nutrients and cooked veg fulfills this shortfall (I have no evidence to prove this) without the risk of worms etc from dung.
Regards s.


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## Plabebob

It's more just licking the floor lol! He doesn't bring them indoors & play with them any more thank god!


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## SlingDash

> *It is of course anyones right to feel that raw is not the best way to feed, but then if so, I would kindly ask you to start your own threads on this in the main Health & Nutrition section if this is what you feel, as it is clearly off topic for a thread all about the ins and outs of feeding a raw diet*.
> 
> Obviously questions and discussion around any issues that arise and problems faced whilst feeding a raw diet contribute to the thread,* but this thread is not really for debating whether raw is the way to go*, as one would assume that you have already come to the conclusion that it is or are verging on it if you are reading this thread in the first place.


I have the utmost respect for you, Katie, but I have to disagree there. The thread is titled "*...Everything* you need to know", and if this excellent topic is indeed to be about the "ins and outs" of raw feeding, then disagreement and evidence to support other points of view must surely be welcomed?

If there are certain dangers or negative issues with raw feeding, then people can read through the topic in its entirety - all viewpoints and evidence included - and make up their own minds whether or not raw is the way to go.

It is very healthy to have such a dynamic topic. That's what keeps it alive.


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## delightfuldior

sandymere said:


> If it's "poo" from herbivores ie sheep, cows etc then add cooked veg such as cabbage to the diet a few times a week and it will likely stop, though if the behavior is ingrained into adulthood it may not. With pups/saplings a few weeks of this seems to stop it, it may be they are after certain nutrients and cooked veg fulfills this shortfall (I have no evidence to prove this) without the risk of worms etc from dung.
> Regards s.


mmh my dogs eat farm and wild animal poo so I may try the cabbage


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## delightfuldior

katiefranke said:


> It sounds to me like the pieces of meat you are giving him are too small if he is able to swallow them in this way...you are possibly right in that it is like eating something ourselves and it is getting stuck part way down which is quite uncomfortable.
> 
> It sounds like it is happening with the chunks of boneless meats - so can you cut them bigger or feed in one large piece? I am assuming you are not cutting the bone-in meals, so you shouldnt have anything to worry about with these if you are feeding them large enough and you say he is crunching them up properly.
> 
> I would not suggest doing any sort of heimlich manoeuvre unless you know what you are doing though, as this could hurt him.
> 
> Re the gland you mention - where abouts is it? Is it just under the lower jaw in the centre? This is usually a little lump of a hair follicle where a couple of whiskers come out...or do you mean further down on the throat? If the former, I dont think this would have any link...if it is the latter, I would get this checked out by your vet. If it is indeed a gland in the throat, this could be inflamed for a number of reasons (unrelated to the food) but the food is pushing on it as it is going down and causing discomfort...


thanks for your reply, I havent fed him bone since  I just darent. I give him the meat chunks quite big to make him chew it down rather than just swallow it.

I think I got the location of the lump wrong. Its on his throat bone , Its not a foreign body and it seems like its a bone connected to his throat bone, or is that his windpipe


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## SlingDash

> mmh my dogs eat farm and wild animal poo so I may try the cabbage


One of our country-type friends says he never worms his dogs because of the amount of sheep s**t they eat, as it contains so much of the worming substances they give to the sheep, it does the job of conventional canine worming tablets.

We do worm ours, but they do like a mouthful of sheep/horse/cow s**t every now and then - all of our dogs always have done. It doesn't bother us, and it doesn't do the dogs any harm, so I wouldn't worry about it - they seem to enjoy it!


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## stigDarley

sandymere said:


> To BARF or not to BARF?
> 
> BARF or RAW, well call it RAW for ease, is a fashionable way to feed dogs but is there any reason why it may be better than any other type of feeding? If I post in the negative its not because I intrinsically disagree with feeding dogs raw food, it is part of my own dogs diet, but rather that I disagree with the idea that it should be fed exclusively. It seems to me that many of the claims made to promote this exclusivity are based on little above hearsay, pseudo science and a Disneyfied idea of nature. Google RAW diet and youll find a plethora of sites promoting holistic this and homeopathic that but little in the way of science or professional backing. Then there is the evangelical belief of the followers that breach no dissent and attack the non-believer at every opportunity with avowed belief in the RAW cure for all of the supposed man made canine ills.
> 
> So lets start with nature, the idea is that whats natural is best. Well what is natural: disease, injury, starvation etc, and un-natural: medicine, physiotherapy, science etc. So its natural for a dog to die of parvo and un-natural to inoculate against it, or its unnatural for a dog with an un-descended testicle to have it removed to reduce future problems and natural to leave it to go on to develop an increased risk of cancer. These are just two examples, Im sure you can think of many more, and they demonstrate a physical abnormality and an illness process, both of which are natural but who would say that nature is best . So rather than natural shall we call it inherited abilities and forget the idea that what is natural is intrinsically preferable.
> 
> Dogs have a plethora of inherited abilities varying from recent adaptations like an increased herding instinct in a collie or the physical attributes that produce the speed of a greyhound to the far older basic biochemistry that comes from a shared ancestry with all life on the planet. These abilities have allowed man and the dog to coexist when at times it would seem that we have trouble coexisting with our own species. So to the crux RAW feeding is best because it is natural, why? Both dogs and humans can and do digest cooked food extremely well and often more easily than raw. Neither species has had time too evolve to eating a cooked diet in the few thousand years that we have been eating it beyond some very minor adaptations. What we have inherited is a natural ability to utilize a great variety of food sources that includes this un-natural cooked food. So if by cooking we reduce bacterial contamination, increase palatability and, to a degree, ease of digestion then to refuse its use on not natural grounds is a little like refusing the Parvo inoculation as its not natural. So if we put to one side the Disneyfied idea of its not natural is there other reasons why cooked is bad? Some oft used reason for RAW is that cooking destroys nutrients, causes cancers and tooth decay. But what does it really do to the food and its nutrients.
> 
> Nutrients, in simple terms, can be described as macro (big) protein, fats and sugars and micro (small) vitamins and minerals. Meat supplies micro and macro nutrients, the macro are protein,fat and a small amount of sugars. Even lean meat from farm animals contains a fair amount of fat; in beef around 40% of its calories will come from fat. This fat will be used as energy either direct as fat or converted to sugar. The protein will be broken down and used for repair/growth or it can be converted for use as energy. Proteins are built from amino acids and these come in different types, some are classed as essential and the rest non essential. The difference is in there ability to be rebuilt into new proteins i.e. essentials can be built into any protein whereas non essential cannot. If you only eat none essentials you will lack some of the building blocks needed so a diet must include all the 10 essential amino acids to be adequate. One way of ensuring this is to eat animal protein as this contains all of them, against some vegetable proteins being short. There are many vegans that get all their and their dogs essential amino acids from beans and pulses etc but it takes more effort than I would want to use when all I need is a bit of meat. Both Raw and cooked meats are well digested by dogs and will supply a good amount of the nutrients they contain, there are draw backs such as contamination, this can be from bacteria, such as salmonella, or chemicals such as antibiotics/hormones, used to treat the animal source prior to death. The risks of chemical contamination, I hope, dont need to be highlighted but the bacterial risk is a less well known area.
> 
> Carbohydrates are complex sugars and it is often claimed that dogs are not able to digest this food source but in truth that is nonsense, oft quoted is wolves dont eat the stomach contents of their prey, or they are carnivores. Wolfs digest carbs very well if they are presented in a viable form, an example is an Artic wolf eating lemmings throughout the summer these are eaten whole stomach and all. The stomach contents of this type of prey animal are whole and part digested seeds etc and make up a fair proportion of a rodents total calorific content, these would be wasted calories if not utilised by the wolf, in a similar fashion timber wolves depend to an equally large degree on rodents such as field voles for their summer diet. So our dogs have an inherited ability to deal with carbs and when presented in a viable form give good digestion rates, basically the dog/wolf is not an obligate carnivore like a cat but has omnivorous capabilities. Through these sources the dog can gain not only the sugars but also valuable fats, protein and micro nutrients. The three food sources are common to both raw and cooked foods but as has been mentioned need to be presented to the digestive system in a usable form i.e. a lump of wood is made of carbohydrate but there are very few animals with the digestive system capable of breaking down and utilising these calories. Cooking in part has been offered as an aid to this problem and is a little easier to arrange than lemming digestion.
> 
> The last of the three food types are fats these are found in varying degrees in meat from small amounts in a wild rabbit to large amounts in a farm reared pig. Fats are used for a number of processes but for this essay we will stick with their use as an energy source. Fat has 9 calories per gram against 4 for carbs or protein so it is a dense form of fuel that forms a major part of supplying low speed, stamina type energy needs. The fats found in meat are not the only source of this nutrient there is another available source that is relatively cheap and available in the form of vegetable oils. Vegetable oils are not often met by wolves but they are well digested by dogs and, in the main, they have a bonus of being high in linolic acid which is very important to growth and general health, when lacking in puppies it leads to retarded growth, failure to thrive and skin problems. So vegetable oils are both a cheap and also good quality form of fat that dogs can very easily assimilate in exactly the same way as they would an animal fat, again perhaps not natural but defiantly useful.
> 
> So how does how does cooked versus raw stand up? It has already been mentioned that a common accusation is that cooking destroys nutrients and the equally common answer is that cooking helps with digestion. Well as with most augments they are both right. It all depends on how and what things are cooked, there is evidence that cooking increases absorption of many micro nutrient, especially in vegetable matter, but also that it might slightly slow digestion of meat if excessive heat is used. What needs to be considered is if this will affect the diet to any real degree or are the percentages just academic rather than real. If an animal is short of nutrients then there may be an argument for choosing to cook some things and not others but for the average dog in the UK, USA or Ireland there is no reason why they should have any shortfall. So if you have a portion of meat then either cooked or raw it will supply a good quantity of its macro and micro nutrients to the dogs digestive system. Personally I feed meat raw, as mentioned above butchers waste and rabbits etc, not because raw is intrinsically better but just the cooking is unnecessary in most situations. If a supply of cooked meat became available I would have no hesitation in feeding it as an alternative or alongside the raw and as I use a percentage of complete food it could be said I already do.
> 
> I use a variety of commercial complete foods and I have gotten good results; I must say that they have never been used as the only food but in truth for the average pet dog I find no reason why they shouldnt be. They are more than adequate in the three food groups and necessary micro nutrients. There is an ongoing discussion about price and quality but at study by Krogdahl et al suggests that there is more likely a variance in quality through brand rather than price and a study they undertook showed all the brands tested exceeded minimum requirements. Carpenter looked are the digestibility of low grade, mechanically recovered meat such as might be used in pet feeds, or sausages for human consumption, and found that other than the expected variance through increased cartilage type material there was little relevant difference in digestibility from other meat sources. Dogs getting home prepared meals should also have adequate and balanced macro and micro nutrients if the owner has a realistic knowledge of feeding and if not then I would have no hesitation in recommending using such a preparatory dog food. The claims of them poising dogs and causing long term health problems seem hard to believe when over the period of there use dogs lifespans and general health has improved. This is likely in part due to better health care but if dog food was as dangerous as some would claim they would surely have a noticeable negative impact on general health and well being. There is growing evidence that burning food may have some negative health benefits but the rendering process of most pet food does not reach those sorts of temperatures. Some other negatives that are sited are dental problems but these are down to eating a soft diet rather than the ingredients so a dog fed on raw pet mince is as likely to get plaque build up as will an animal on any wet soft diet, feeding dried food will limit this to an extent. To further avoid this problem there needs to be opportunity to chew a harder object to reduce the amount of soft feed sticking to teeth and to break off plaque. Bones are very good for the latter and I feed raw bones once or twice a week but it must be born in mind that there are risks in feeding bones, even raw, and the owner needs to decide for themselves if it is worth it. There are alternatives in the form of chews etc available in most pet shops that in theory should do a similar job but not having tried them I would not like to judge.
> 
> Lastly there is the dietary effects on performance, feeding a raw only diet will give little in the way of adjustability, it may well suit the lifestyle of a wolf but not so the modern dog. Modern domestic dogs perform a great variety of jobs from the extremes of a long distance sled dog racing over hundreds of kilometres to that of a greyhound sprinting over 500mertres and their dietary needs will vary accordingly. One problem is in the amount of protein, and this goes with high protein completes as well as RAW. Various authors have stated that greyhounds run fastest on medium protein diets and Hill suggests, 25% protein, 30% fat and 45% carbs, whereas long distance huskies will need high fat, higher protein and only minimal carbohydrate, such as 35% protein, 45% fat and only 20% carbs. These authors suggest that increasing dietary protein to the greyhounds slowed racing. Hill suggest that carbs are useful as a recovery aid to restock glucose stores more efficiently and faster than is possible through protein and fat alone and this is seconded by Wakshlag. The carbs that are being advocated are not available in a raw only diet, although as stated are probably part of a wolfs diet, and to exclude them would be rather like excluding an energy/electrolyte drink to Paula Radcliff because its not  natural although it will decrease race times and aid in her recovery process.
> 
> So in conclusion the RAW type diets sell books and in the world of those keen on all things natural in a Disney type way may well suit their sensibilities but in the real world then it is hard to see any real purpose or reason to such a restrictive regime. It is supported with an almost evangelical following that seems to breach no dissent but has no real science to back it beyond the all things natural brigade. I specialise in sight hound types and have for the past 40 years and these type of dogs especially have moved beyond their wolf ancestors in both physical structure and use so why oh why should they eat a wolfs diet, it doesnt apply to their current energy requirements, especially when the raw diets being suggested arent even the true diet of wolves?
> References posted/pmd on request.
> 
> Appendix A
> Recent studies have highlighted the high incidence of gastric ulceration and gastritis in working dogs studies of this group of dogs suggest that most working dogs may have at least some risk of developing exercise-associated gastro-intestinal disease (Davis). This will lead to increased permeability of the lower gastroenterial tract, this born in the light of recent gastroenterological thought, relating increase permeability with increased incidence of acute gastritis, you can imagine that a high bacterial load can only increase likelihood and extent of this problem. Some dogs may carry a high bacterial load naturally but there is an increased incidence with animals that are suffering with diarrhoea (Stanley). These bacteria are likely from the diet and include serious pathogens such as salmonella, likely from uncooked chicken. Clostridial spp and Campylobacter spp are also commonly found. Stanley states Campylobacter can survive for days in surface water and as long as 4 weeks in feces. The duration of excretion in infected dogs and cats can be as long as 4 months and infected animals should be quarantined away from children during this period. So careful storing and prep is a must for anyone with children if feeding raw pet quality meats to their dogs. An alternative would be human quality such as wild rabbits that have been properly frozen straight away and then defrosted in the fridge, basically as you would for your own consumption. The other obvious choice is cooking which will of course reduce the incidence of bacterial contamination and for the majority of owners this has already been done for them in the preparation of dried or tinned feeds. Personally I feed a percentage of raw butchers waste which has not been stored in ideal conditions and reading into this subject has made me think.


Well said!! :thumbup:


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## katiefranke

Thats a very interesting post sandymere, but I am not entirely sure I understand the point - or at least I understand it in general, but not as to why you would post it in here?

If its that raw is not the only way to feed, then thats fine, I have never said that and nobody said you had to feed raw? I have actually posted a number of things in the health & nutrition section over the months about home-prepared diets which also linked to cooking and providing fresh foods but not raw...

However, thats not what this thread was about, as there are a whole load of people out there who do want to feed raw - thats why this thread was started in response to these requests...I get that a few of you dont seem to like the title, but thats what it is...it was started months ago!

If you read my opening paragraphs of the thread I only started this because we had so much info being repeated by lots of people to others' questions again and again, so it made sense to put it in one place...which is why I say it is about explaining how to feed a raw diet... There are other threads for explaining homecooked diets or other forms of diets or comparing different diets - in fact if you would like to create one about home-prepared diets (as I suggested to slingdash a while back) I am sure many people would be very greatful as it is something they have thought about but not understood enough about...perhaps you could have a 'home-prepared diet' sticky if there is enough interest?

I actually would have thought that by posting the above in here it is being missed by the vast majority of people? Which is a shame as I think it would be interesting to others... but hey ho, maybe just my logic or I have missed what you actually meant!


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## katiefranke

sandymere said:


> Katiefranke thanks for your reply, healthy discussion on the pros and cones is I feel important with a heading that claims "Raw Feeding everything you need to know!" rather than raw feeding a converts discussion group.


I agree re discussion, and numerous things have been discussed throughout the vast pages of this thread, but just because mine and others views are different to your own and so we would answer them differently does not mean that we have not discussed them, just means we came to a different conclusion than you may do.

Unfortunately your rebuttals to the 'myths' site had no 'evidence' to back them up either so I cannot really answer them very well... it is not for me to prove anything as it is already obvious what I believe from my own research and I am not out to force anyone to change their view if this is not what they feel...so really it is for you to disprove the points properly if you wish to have any hope of changing anyones mind.

I actually only link to this site as it is an easy summary of many of the common myths. It is clearly a US site and if you look at the date it is a few years old, so I believe some of the comparisons made between raw-fed and kibble-fed would have been made when we did not have the 'better' quality kibbles around, which is why they are potentially more extreme.

However, some of the points you dismiss as utter rubbish are interesting, as there is actually some 'evidence' to back these claims up. I had thought a few things were referenced on the actual site but if not I will take a look through and provide you with some thoughts on it.

I just wanted to touch on one point in particular before I log off as I think it is important to point out...re the wolves and stomach contents, I think this really will depend on which 'expert' you believe. David Mech is recognised as the worlds leading expert on wolves and states in a number of his books and research along with his colleagues also that wolves would not eat the stomach contents of anything larger than a rabbit. It would instead split it open, spill the contents and eat the lining...it is documented well enough for anyone to read and the majority of people who are feeding a raw diet will have made their decision on which side of the fence they fall on for this one, as this usually results in the decision on whether to feed veg or not...


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## katiefranke

SlingDash said:


> If there are certain dangers or negative issues with raw feeding, then people can read through the topic in its entirety - all viewpoints and evidence included - and make up their own minds whether or not raw is the way to go.


But we have had numerous discussions around issues people have had so I am not suggesting we dont have this? I just didnt want you guys to go off topic about the cancer thing as it got a little personal I had thought...

However, I would also say that the title is not "Raw Feeding - to feed or not to feed"... but maybe I should have called it "How to feed a raw diet" to make it clearer on the content...

I bid you all good night now - I am very weary from the last few weeks as have had a lot on, so please forgive me if I take a while to reply to things.


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## princesssaskia

SlingDash said:


> So you don't worm your dogs, or get them vaccinated against potentially fatal infections? Perhaps you do, but with that statement, you seem to be recommending that people feed raw, and DON'T do it themselves? That is highly irresponsible as far as I (and I'm sure the vast majority of other people) am concerned. The best way to ensure a dog stays "disease free" is to at least vaccinate against the most dangerous infections. To state that feeding a raw diet negates any dangers from such diseases is a very bold statement that simply cannot be backed-up by any evidence. Evidence to the contrary, along with years of scientific medical research and the routine vaccination of dogs, humans and other animals, would suggest quite the opposite in fact.
> 
> 'Healthy bodies' do not 'harbour disease' by definition. Any living thing is at risk of contracting or developing a plethora of diseases, and I agree that feeding a healthy diet goes a small way to fighting such infections, but to state that feeding a raw, meaty bones diet is any more beneficial than a high quality commercially prepared diet, is just not true.
> 
> Can you provide evidence to back such statements up? That sounds like something you'd read on a lot of pro raw-feeding websites to me. You simply cannot say that not feeding raw will cause such diseases, or that those dogs that have died young, have done so because they weren't fed a raw diet. A great many living organisms are susceptible to cancer of one form or another, and we simply do not know exactly why.


First off, I just want to thank katie for getting thread back on track! its hard cos its a subject that people are particularly passionate about!

I just feel, re slingdash's comments about the cancer thing etc, that I need to explain myself, .................

I said MINIMISE or eliminate vaccinnes and chemical fleas/wormer. I have read and read and read and am studying degrees in homeopathy and food as a medicine, the whole of my feeding philosophy is based around the simple concept of 'minimising toxins'. This is the key point you have missed in all that I am saying (though to be fair i didnt explain myself) Basically im not stating that you should NEVER vaccinate, NEVER flea or worm and that a RAW diet will mean your dog (or you for that matter) will be healthy and disease free for ever............. what im saying is that 1) minimising toxins from the system AND 2) addressing herediatary tendencies is the best way, I have concluded, to have everything working in the best possible way - a healthy balance of the bodies vital force - where inate resistance and repair is at its best.

I address number 1) by feeding, not just a natural or 'RAW' diet (indeed I feed cooked sometimes, also table scraps and certainly foods and veg that a wolf would not come across, like cottage cheese or courgettes!!!!) but most imprtantly a CHEMICALLY FREE AS POSSIBLE one! I feed organic or near organic food to myself, my family and my dogs. Its the additional toxins, processing treatments and gm ingredients in prepared foods that i oppose. I further reduce toxins by way of natural wormers and flea treatments - i use a combination of dio earth, garlic and yeast for fleas and a homeopathic preparation for parasites. I choose not to vaccinate them based on A LOT of reading (pros and cons) and have done so for a number of years without issue. My dogs live in the country and are generally healthy, worm, flea and disease free, thats not to say they dont get ill from time to time, but when they do I address it with herbal remedies or homeopathic MEDICINE, or acupuncture and usually particular foodstuffs too - but this is all based on my beliefs and a lifetime of research. a chemical, unprocessed, largely RAW diet is PART of my total program. HOWEVER, if my dogs lived in the city, I probably would get them vacinnated, at least agianst parvo and distemper, though annual boosters are often unecessary (as some vets even admit!). Similarly if they had real bad fleas a treatment of frontline wouldnt kill them! im just saying that as far as my situation allows i would eliminate as many toxins as possible

as for number 2) again, based on lots of research i choose to use acupuncture and homeopathy to build and strengthen weaknesses in the body (caused by hereditary inbalance or external factors), i believe that the body's vital force is delicate and easily unbalanced so i tweak my and my dogs system constantly in answer to whatever life throws at us. If the body remains out of balance for too long THIS is when it is prone to disease. A good diet can help a lot but i believe it MUST be supported with holistic treatment and natural Medicine

So in conclusion, Im not saying that feeding RAW will definately prevent cancer, or any other disease or that you should NEVER vaccinate, flea or worm! ITS THE TOXINS I HATE !!!!!

ANYWAY HOPE THATS CLEARED THE AIR xxxx


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## Plabebob

katiefranke said:


> But we have had numerous discussions around issues people have had so I am not suggesting we dont have this? I just didnt want you guys to go off topic about the cancer thing as it got a little personal I had thought...
> 
> However, I would also say that the title is not "Raw Feeding - to feed or not to feed"... but maybe I should have called it "How to feed a raw diet" to make it clearer on the content...
> 
> I bid you all good night now - I am very weary from the last few weeks as have had a lot on, so please forgive me if I take a while to reply to things.


I think you can still change the original subject - maybe that would be a good thing to do to avoid further misunderstanding... Having all info about how to feed raw in one place has been invaluable for me & now a lot of it's starting to get pretty buried. Maybe a new 'to feed or not to feed raw' discussion could be started...


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## sandymere

I feel cancer and homeopathy are a little off subject and raw feeding can get lost in them. I would love to see a post on them but that would be for another time so back to the subject of raw feeding.

"_Thats a very interesting post sandymere, but I am not entirely sure I understand the point - or at least I understand it in general, but not as to why you would post it in here_?"(katiefranke)

Because the thread is titled Raw Feeding All You Need to know and it is a post about raw feeding.

_If you read my opening paragraphs of the thread I only started this because we had so much info being repeated by lots of people to others' questions again and again, so it made sense to put it in one place_...(katiefranke)

And it seems the ideal place for an ongoing discussion on the subject.

_I actually would have thought that by posting the above in here it is being missed by the vast majority of people_?(katiefranke)

I posted it in the raw feeding thread as its about raw feeding and the vast majority of people when considering this option would read the thread titled Raw feeding all you need to know!

Please feel free to question my posts as to content evidence etc, I find the more the subject is discussed the more the discussion becomes open and balanced and, in my lowly opinion, this can only be a good thing. This thread was started by you but is part of a forum and contributed to by many people so as long as the subject is about raw feeding I see little reason for you to question other peoples post as to there placement if their post s are on the subject of Raw Feeding.

_Unfortunately your rebuttals to the 'myths' site had no 'evidence' to back them up either so I cannot really answer them very well... it is not for me to prove anything as it is already obvious what I believe from my own research_.. (katiefranke)

What do you mean evidence to back them up in the post I made, in response to the myths page, I was not making claims of any diet I was rather suggesting that claims such as kibble causes fat unfit dogs were unfounded. If a site makes a claim then they should be able to back them up and the emphasis is on those making claims especially when those claims are health related. By your linking to this site on numerous occasions I would only seem fair that you explain the reasoning behind these unfounded claims.
If you remember I asked for your research and still await with interest. The Raw myths site is opinion that has, in general, little scientific basis/research. I would be very happy to give evidence to back up what claims I make and have already linked to research that does just that.

_I just wanted to touch on one point in particular before I log off as I think it is important to point out...re the wolves and stomach contents, I think this really will depend on which 'expert' you believe. David Mech is recognised as the worlds leading expert on wolves and states in a number of his books and research along with his colleagues also that wolves would not eat the stomach contents of anything larger than a rabbit_. (katiefranke)
And as I state in my posts many wolves feed to a high degree on rodents and they do eat their stomach contents so citing they dont as evidence doesnt make sense, it is nothing to do with the expert but whether one is honest about the interpretation of the evidence, wolves commonly eat the stomach contents of their prey do they not? *If you are to promote raw feeding then you should be willing to have open discussion on the subject, good and bad. *


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## SlingDash

I couldn't agreee more. Healthy discussion and debate - which includes ALL sides to an issue - is good for everybody. It's what keeps this topic in particular 'alive'.

It is also very unrealistic to expect any topic in any internet forum to remain exactly as the original poster intends. Topics usually go off-course within a few posts of the initial one - it's simply the way of things.


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## lucybichon

I have to say I agree with Katie in that if you read the first post then it is clear that this thread is about how to begin feeding a raw diet, not to discuss whether it is right or not in the first place. Perhaps the title might not be entirely clear, but as soon as you read the first post then it should clarify that point. I myself am new to this forum/thread (only discovered it 2 weeks ago) and it has proved extremely useful in helping me start feeding my dog a raw diet, but all the useful information is now starting to get lost amongst off-topic discussions. As said by others, if people want to have a discussion about the pros and cons of raw feeding and whether or not it is right then I really think it should be started as a new thread as the people who come in here on a regular basis have already done background research and have come to their own conclusion to feed a raw diet and don't need the arguments for and against to be repeated in here. This thread is the place for advice to help people along the way once they've started feeding a raw diet.


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## katiefranke

Thank you lucybichon for your post - and rightly or wrongly, this was my intention for the thread due to numerous requests for the same info prior to this thread being created. Unfortunately I dont think I can amend the title now even if I wanted to, as it would change the link and it is linked throughout the forum from old posts.



sandymere said:


> If you are to promote raw feeding then you should be willing to have open discussion on the subject, good and bad.


But that is just it, I am quite happy to discuss all of these things and have been throughout the thread! I just do not wish to derail the original reason for creating this thread by entering into whether or not a raw diet is the right way to feed.

Lets just get some things straight:

- *It is VERY clear from my original posts in this thread what it is about - in fact so much so that nobody has even mentioned it or misunderstood it until now even though we have had some 500 odd posts over 4-5 months! In fact, to make it even clearer I have added an update for you and slingdash on my original post*

- *As you will see from reading other peoples comments above and through the thread (lucybichon & plabebob's posts say it all), 99% of the people in the thread are here because they want to feed a raw diet and are working out how to do it with like-minded people. If they have problems we all talk about them, we all have different styles of feeding it, we try and help each other and if people decide they no longer want to feed in this way, then no problem.*

- *However, the thread is NOT for debating whether raw is right...its a collection of information to help people who choose to feed this way. It also has info for those that might be gathering more info before making the leap. You may not like this, but as the thread owner, this is what it is meant for, this is what I stated from the beginning and this is what people are discussing in here*

- *If you would like to take the time to read through the whole thread, the negatives are being discussed throughout. And whilst you may not agree with some of the answers, I have yet to see evidence to say that your opinion is right and others is wrong...? As I am sure you know, there is precious little research on raw feeding itself and any that has been done tends to be sponsored by the commercial manufacturers! So go figure what the results point at...*

- *Therefore, I believe I am right in saying that debate about whether it is the correct way to feed is NOT on topic for this particular thread*



sandymere said:


> If you remember I asked for your research and still await with interest.


In response to the above - I think I have already mentioned...I dont have to justify anything!  Why are you waiting for MY research? Where is yours to prove what you are saying - after all, you have come into a thread full of people who believe that raw feeding is one of the best if not the best way to feed! You can't expect to need information/evidence from one side but be able to discredit statements without having 'evidence' of your own...

I can quite happily provide it and I will do when I have time as I already said - some of which will be useful for people, much of which I have already taken the time to post links on and discuss anyway...so I will need to spend time finding each thing to show you.

At the end of the day, I have a life and it is very busy at the mo, so I am more than happy to spend a lot of time to gather information for people who want to learn more, even if they are not 100% sure on raw yet - however, at this point in time, I dont have the time to spend digging through reams of info just to satisfy your need I'm afraid - Im not on a crusade to convert people who dont want to be converted, I just wanted to be able to help those who needed it, as I know how difficult it was to wade through all the information out there and make sense of it...

I would also like to point out that if you wanted to start other threads on this, then I am more than happy to discuss with you when I get the time as I do enjoy discussing the ins and out, but as you will see from the posts even on this page, the information that people came here for is now being buried in off topic posts...so much so that I now have to wade through them to find the questions that are being asked!

*I am also getting numerous people now PMing me and emailing off the forum as its easier than discussing on here - which defeats the whole point of setting up this thread in the first place!*

I hope I have made myself clear from the above and as I said, I am happy to enter into discussion with you, but when I have the time and in the appropriate place.


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## Plabebob

Well said! I'm really interested in the debate pro/con as well... I'm always up to hear more info, just keeping this thread clear for feeding instructions would be very welcome thanks


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## princesssaskia

well said katie :thumbup:

ok, so lets get back on track...........

cant remember who it was having the issue with their dog swallowing large chunks of bone and sicking them up, or expelling shards in their poo's ??? maybe a few different people have mentioned it??? but i would like to kick this thread off again by addressing that based on my own experiences of feeding many diff types of dog RAW

As katie said earlier, there is a period after first switing to RAW where the dogs system takes time to rebalance - eventually they will be able to break bones right down easily, but at first gobbling too much or too big pieces will result in sicking up or pooing out bits of bone - which as some on here have admitted they find quite scary and they worry about bones piercing organs, or causing other internal damage etc etc.

I have found that the ways round this for me have been:

- firstly roughly crushing or cutting the bones up (im talking chicken and game bones and sometimes lamb ribs - as opposed to beef or pork bones) into small pecies - this way i have found them to be digested easier

- also (though i know some of you will prob be anti this) i have found that lightly poaching whole birds (chicken/duck/partridge/pigeon) for only 5 or 10 min (i do mine straight from frozen in ten min!!!) softens the bones and makes them easier to digest. At first I never ever fed bones cooked, cos all the books said not too and there was talk of cooked bones splintering - but as slingdash rightly said RAW bones splinter too, and since then i have read a lot of stuff, even by pro home diet vets, saying that cooked bones are ok, so long as small ones (eg birds or rabbits) and not oven roasted for hours!!!

I have fed like this - alongside other RAW meat and bones, for a number of years now with no mishaps - i would be interested to hear from anyone else who feeds cooked bones sometimes

- after the first few weeks, when I moved from feeding small pieces of raw and cooked bone, i fed chicken wings and held onto them whilst the dog ate, thus encouraging him to chew

as katie has also said, after the novelty wears off - which to mine it had by that point, as they had been eating raw meat with small bits of bone for a few wks already! - they stop gulping and rushing

today all my dogs eat RAW bones and carcasses of any size very happily and only occassionally sick up bits if they have feasted on too many bones, or their poo goes a bit chalky sometimes if they eat lots of bone (but never any shards in it, as their systems break down everything!

however, i still start my pups (and dogs i help make the switch to RAW) off with really small bits of bone and lightly cooked small bones

anyway, be interested to hear how others have overcome this prob


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## Plabebob

Interesting. Tron does really chalky poos whenever I give him a bone from the pet shop, but since he's been having chicken carcasses his poos have actually been more normal. I guess cause it's being digested with the meat rather than just pigging out on bone & nothing else.


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## katiefranke

princesssaskia said:


> anyway, be interested to hear how others have overcome this prob


I start them off on 'soft' bones like chicken and rabbit and only progress to lamb/pork ribs and bones as they get better at digesting everything.

With the cats (and small dogs I would imagine also) ribs joined to some of the breast meat are a good choice as they are very small, soft and flexible...

Cats are definitely more difficult to switch than dogs, but mine can now manage to eat through whole birds (quails etc) rabbit legs and large chicken wings.

I do know people that only feed minced raw meat for the first couple of weeks which apparently helps with the switch over as it is like pre-digested food in this state and so easier to digest? I guess this is the same logic as starting a pup on solids and mince is used initially.... once they have had mince for a week or two it gets their digestive juices to be more acidic before introducing bones, at which point they should be able to digest them more easily...

I have never fed any form of cooked bone and dont think I will to be honest - I guess people (and animals) eat the cooked fish bones you get in canned fish though...I am not sure how long/how this would have been cooked to get the bone like this?



plabebob said:


> Interesting. Tron does really chalky poos whenever I give him a bone from the pet shop, but since he's been having chicken carcasses his poos have actually been more normal. I guess cause it's being digested with the meat rather than just pigging out on bone & nothing else.


Usually bones from pet shops are big and thick and this is a LOT of bone...when you look at the amounts of bone they consume within the meat in a raw diet, its actually not very much at all, so shouldnt really cause too-chalky a poop unless very boney meals are being fed continuously. 

--------------

*PS: I've updated all the links with some new articles/sites/resources etc on the first page if you fancy taking a look!* :thumbsup:


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## cinnamontoast

My apologies to Katiefrank for probably being the one to take things off topic. It felt personal to me, given my experiences this year and the discussions I've had IRL with the people who run a pet cemetery/vets etc. I do think the vets at the RVC (the qualified ones!) know what they're talking about.

Anyhow, back on topic: is it OK to feed a couple of types of raw food (chicken mince/tripe/chicken carcasses) and to add in other meats for variety? I have (hallelujah!) found an extremely reliable supplier of all of these things and we just go to his place when we need to as opposed to waiting for someone to get back to us/deliver. I obviously want to ensure a varied and balanced diet for the creatures so wondered what else I should be regularly including


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## princesssaskia

cinammontoast said:


> is it OK to feed a couple of types of raw food (chicken mince/tripe/chicken carcasses) and to add in other meats for variety? I have (hallelujah!) found an extremely reliable supplier of all of these things and we just go to his place when we need to as opposed to waiting for someone to get back to us/deliver. I obviously want to ensure a varied and balanced diet for the creatures so wondered what else I should be regularly including


I personally choose not to feed pork, but i regularly (meaning every week) feed the following
- chicken (meat and carcass and chicken liver)
- lamb (ribs and breast and lamb liver and kidneys)
- beef or ox (chunks of meat and tongue)
- fish (usually mackeral, sardine or pilchard)

I also feed an egg or 2 every wk, some probiotic yoghurt and cottage cheese

when its in season, or i can get my hands on it! i also feed
- tripe
- rabbit (whole, meat, bones, organs, fur - though not necessarily in one sitting)
- game like partridge, pheasant and pigeon (again whole)
- other more obscure organ meats from beef, ox or cows including lungs and spleen


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## katiefranke

cinammontoast said:


> Anyhow, back on topic: is it OK to feed a couple of types of raw food (chicken mince/tripe/chicken carcasses) and to add in other meats for variety? I have (hallelujah!) found an extremely reliable supplier of all of these things and we just go to his place when we need to as opposed to waiting for someone to get back to us/deliver. I obviously want to ensure a varied and balanced diet for the creatures so wondered what else I should be regularly including


Yep thats fine to use the things you can get easily as your 'staple' foods and then just add in other stuff as and when you can get it  I would personally try and feed at least some red meat - something like tongue or heart make good cheap meaty meals.

I feed very similarly to princesssaskia with the variety - but I also feed pork. I do always buy it free-range and I freeze it for a few weeks before feeding though. My lot LOVE pork and I would go so far as to say that it is maggie's favourite meat actually, so I wouldnt want to stop feeding this. It has taken me some time to build up this variety though, so I wouldnt worry about it straight away - and some people never do have much variety.


----------



## 300roses

I fully agree that this thread should be kept to its original purpose for the benefit of people who are new in raw feeding, as well as those looking into raw.



katiefranke said:


> I also feed pork. I do always buy it free-range and I freeze it for a few weeks before feeding though.


Hi katie, I feed pork to my gal, Rossi too. I would like to ask if its ok to feed pig organs (liver, kidney etc)?

Also, I have tried feeding some chicken livers to Rossi, but I noticed that she broke out in some rashes on the two occasions I gave her the livers. Í was thinking of allergy, but she's fine with the chicken meat. Both the chicken meat and livers are free of hormones & antibiotics. I would like to ask if its possible that richness in livers can sometimes cause reactions, like rashes? (Hope my question dun sound silly in any way.)


----------



## geomak

Interesting post, I planned to buy new pet and really confuse about food and care, Here is very useful and helpful information and guideline about feeding. Lovely tips for who planned to buy pet and who having this present. Impressive article.


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## daveyace

The Best ebook here on the plannet today for going raw! :thumbup:


----------



## daveyace

why do my posts keep disapearing?


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## daveyace

sorry my mistake


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## cinnamontoast

Creatures love pork! They have had pork ribs a lot recently. They were on offer in a supermarket then very cheap in a local butcher shop. 

The pups will eat anything, big dog is a bit fussy and goes for the tripe first if there's a mix. 

I will go out on a limb and say something that may well be shot down. This is the second lot of litter mates I've had. The first two were fed on commercial crap and I make no apologies for using that word. Very early on, the vet and us, of course, noticed the poor state of cleanliness of the dentition of the dogs and the 'tea stains'. We were told to bring Jake in for a clean. Such a shame as I don't like the anaesthetic and stress to the dog  The current pups have gorgeous teeth and weirdly, I notice that all their coats are fabulous. 

The big thing that I see with these pups is their size: they are huge! I recall the first two being teeny for ages but these two are very well grown. I'm not advocating massive dogs, as obviously growing too quickly may lead to issue down the line. What I would say is that they are well grown, healthy, energetic puppies.

I am in no way saying that what I do is the only good practise but I would like to say that we did not start this because it's apparently 'fashionable'. We decided to do it for the sake of our dogs in an attempt o do the best for them.


----------



## SlingDash

> I am in no way saying that what I do is the only good practise but I would like to say that we did not start this because it's apparently 'fashionable'. *We decided to do it for the sake of our dogs in an attempt o do the best for them*.


Is it really "the best" for them though? That's the whole point when folk who are unsure about, or who are against raw feeding, try to put a different spin on things in this topic.

I'm unsure of the numbers of dogs who've died from ruptured insides caused by splinters of bone, but am pretty sure there are many. This is why we stopped feeding bones, and went for a bone-free (well - they do get minced bone), high quality kibble, fresh meat, offal and fish diet for our pack. There will be people here who say they've fed raw for years without problems, so of course they aren't going to talk of any risks because they have no direct experience of any. It is those who HAVE had problems who talk about them, and these people's points of view should be considered by anybody thinking of feeding a raw diet.

Just a quick 'Google' of the negative side of things threw this up:



> Those who feed their dogs bones reason that canines in the wild eat bones all the time and that it's natural for them. They say that only cooked bones pose a risk of splintering and many of them claim they have fed their dogs raw bones for years with no problem. Yet an Internet search yields discussion forums where former bone-feeders have repented after their dog developed life-threatening problems. Their stories tell of drastic and difficult surgeries, one to remove a bone stuck in the esophagus, leaving the possibility of scar tissue preventing swallowing, another to remove a bone from the colon and bone fragments from the large intestine. Still others tell of chipped teeth or teeth pulled out of alignment, some resulting in abscesses.
> 
> Natural is not always better. It's 'natural' for wolves to die of rabies once in a while. That's why we vaccinate our pets.
> 
> In summary, documented cases demonstrate that dogs fed bones can suffer horrendous gastrointestinal problems. If definite risk is there, why take a chance with your dog?


There are thousands more, just like there are thousands of others that talk about the opposite side of things. We're erring on the side of caution and going along with what that final sentence says.


----------



## princesssaskia

SlingDash said:


> Is it really "the best" for them though? That's the whole point when folk who are unsure about, or who are against raw feeding, try to put a different spin on things in this topic.


slingdash, you have strong views and that the whole point of forums, but as katie said before i think you ought to start a new thread on the pros and cons of RAW as I for one would love to argue my side in depth but this is not the thread for that - again as katie said, the people on here want to discuss the detail of feeding a RAW diet, not whether they should or not

just one thing, the number of dogs who die from disease or bone obstructions is pretty small, yes vaccines or commercial diet may reduce both these probs further - but they both can cause MANY other health issues!!! I would prefer to risk the small chance my dog died 'naturally' of a bone issue or a disease than to risk him having a lifetime of niggling unhealth - to me a (possibly) short very healthy happy life is better than a long miserable one with trips to the vets and feeling run down all the time cos your system is full of poor quality food and chemicals and not working well


----------



## cinnamontoast

SlingDash said:


> Is it really "the best" for them though? That's the whole point when folk who are unsure about, or who are against raw feeding, try to put a different spin on things in this topic.


I'd rather you put me on UI, to be honest. It's getting tedious now. I've put you on mine.


----------



## lucybichon

Any solutions for dark green sloppy poos? We're just over 2 weeks into a raw diet and Lucy's poos still aren't normal. She's having chicken breast in the morning and then either bone-in thighs or chicken breast and a wing in the evening. Should I try giving her a bone-in meal at every meal time?


----------



## cinnamontoast

lucybichon said:


> Any solutions for dark green sloppy poos? We're just over 2 weeks into a raw diet and Lucy's poos still aren't normal. She's having chicken breast in the morning and then either bone-in thighs or chicken breast and a wing in the evening. Should I try giving her a bone-in meal at every meal time?


I would, even though the ratio will then be incorrect. I vary, depending on how sloppy or otherwise. You might want to try experimenting until you find the right balance for your girl.


----------



## lucybichon

Thanks, I'll try increasing the bone and see how she is.


----------



## sandymere

katiefranke said:


> Thank you lucybichon for your post - and rightly or wrongly, this was my intention for the thread due to numerous requests for the same info prior to this thread being created. Unfortunately I dont think I can amend the title now even if I wanted to, as it would change the link and it is linked throughout the forum from old posts.
> 
> But that is just it, I am quite happy to discuss all of these things and have been throughout the thread! I just do not wish to derail the original reason for creating this thread by entering into whether or not a raw diet is the right way to feed.
> 
> Lets just get some things straight:
> 
> - *It is VERY clear from my original posts in this thread what it is about - in fact so much so that nobody has even mentioned it or misunderstood it until now even though we have had some 500 odd posts over 4-5 months! In fact, to make it even clearer I have added an update for you and slingdash on my original post*
> 
> - *As you will see from reading other peoples comments above and through the thread (lucybichon & plabebob's posts say it all), 99% of the people in the thread are here because they want to feed a raw diet and are working out how to do it with like-minded people. If they have problems we all talk about them, we all have different styles of feeding it, we try and help each other and if people decide they no longer want to feed in this way, then no problem.*
> 
> - *However, the thread is NOT for debating whether raw is right...its a collection of information to help people who choose to feed this way. It also has info for those that might be gathering more info before making the leap. You may not like this, but as the thread owner, this is what it is meant for, this is what I stated from the beginning and this is what people are discussing in here*
> 
> - *If you would like to take the time to read through the whole thread, the negatives are being discussed throughout. And whilst you may not agree with some of the answers, I have yet to see evidence to say that your opinion is right and others is wrong...? As I am sure you know, there is precious little research on raw feeding itself and any that has been done tends to be sponsored by the commercial manufacturers! So go figure what the results point at...*
> 
> - *Therefore, I believe I am right in saying that debate about whether it is the correct way to feed is NOT on topic for this particular thread*
> 
> In response to the above - I think I have already mentioned...I dont have to justify anything!  Why are you waiting for MY research? Where is yours to prove what you are saying - after all, you have come into a thread full of people who believe that raw feeding is one of the best if not the best way to feed! You can't expect to need information/evidence from one side but be able to discredit statements without having 'evidence' of your own...
> 
> I can quite happily provide it and I will do when I have time as I already said - some of which will be useful for people, much of which I have already taken the time to post links on and discuss anyway...so I will need to spend time finding each thing to show you.
> 
> At the end of the day, I have a life and it is very busy at the mo, so I am more than happy to spend a lot of time to gather information for people who want to learn more, even if they are not 100% sure on raw yet - however, at this point in time, I dont have the time to spend digging through reams of info just to satisfy your need I'm afraid - Im not on a crusade to convert people who dont want to be converted, I just wanted to be able to help those who needed it, as I know how difficult it was to wade through all the information out there and make sense of it...
> 
> I would also like to point out that if you wanted to start other threads on this, then I am more than happy to discuss with you when I get the time as I do enjoy discussing the ins and out, but as you will see from the posts even on this page, the information that people came here for is now being buried in off topic posts...so much so that I now have to wade through them to find the questions that are being asked!
> 
> *I am also getting numerous people now PMing me and emailing off the forum as its easier than discussing on here - which defeats the whole point of setting up this thread in the first place!*
> 
> I hope I have made myself clear from the above and as I said, I am happy to enter into discussion with you, but when I have the time and in the appropriate place.


A forum is a discussion and just because someone disagrees with you and ask you to back up what you are saying you want to close the discussion! You must learn to differentiate between an attack on you and one on your augments. I often get asked for advice on other forums and always suggest that the questions are posted to enable open discussion and to ensure that I give good accountable advice but thats just me. I'm sorry if you dislike to be questioned and asked for evidence but to me that is important when discussing health problems ie dogs chocking/fitting and your giving advice based on a very dodgy web site. I remain waiting for your reply re wolves and stomach contents. Shall we return to raw feeding.
A little evidence once again

Canadian Veterinary Medical Association -

http://www.deltasociety.org/Document.Doc?id=679

http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2006_V145.pdf


----------



## sandymere

cinammontoast said:


> Creatures love pork! They have had pork ribs a lot recently. They were on offer in a supermarket then very cheap in a local butcher shop.
> 
> The pups will eat anything, big dog is a bit fussy and goes for the tripe first if there's a mix.
> 
> I will go out on a limb and say something that may well be shot down. This is the second lot of litter mates I've had. The first two were fed on commercial crap and I make no apologies for using that word. Very early on, the vet and us, of course, noticed the poor state of cleanliness of the dentition of the dogs and the 'tea stains'. We were told to bring Jake in for a clean. Such a shame as I don't like the anaesthetic and stress to the dog  The current pups have gorgeous teeth and weirdly, I notice that all their coats are fabulous.
> 
> The big thing that I see with these pups is their size: they are huge! I recall the first two being teeny for ages but these two are very well grown. I'm not advocating massive dogs, as obviously growing too quickly may lead to issue down the line. What I would say is that they are well grown, healthy, energetic puppies.
> 
> I am in no way saying that what I do is the only good practise but I would like to say that we did not start this because it's apparently 'fashionable'. We decided to do it for the sake of our dogs in an attempt o do the best for them.


Not about the central theme but I thinks that good, open discussion.
A link that you might find interesting re large puppies.
http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal feeding of large breed puppies.pdf


----------



## Plabebob

lucybichon said:


> Any solutions for dark green sloppy poos? We're just over 2 weeks into a raw diet and Lucy's poos still aren't normal. She's having chicken breast in the morning and then either bone-in thighs or chicken breast and a wing in the evening. Should I try giving her a bone-in meal at every meal time?


If it was me I would try adding more bone to the meals definitely... not sure what would turn them green though!


----------



## hobbs2004

sandymere said:


> A forum is a discussion and just because someone disagrees with you and ask you to back up what you are saying you want to close the discussion! You must learn to differentiate between an attack on you and one on your augments. I often get asked for advice on other forums and always suggest that the questions are posted to enable open discussion and to ensure that I give good accountable advice but thats just me. I'm sorry if you dislike to be questioned and asked for evidence but to me that is important when discussing health problems ie dogs chocking/fitting and your giving advice based on a very dodgy web site. I remain waiting for your reply re wolves and stomach contents. Shall we return to raw feeding.
> A little evidence once again
> 
> Canadian Veterinary Medical Association -
> 
> http://www.deltasociety.org/Document.Doc?id=679
> 
> http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2006_V145.pdf


Granted there is evidence to suggest that feeding a raw diet is associated with a greater shedding of salmonella and other bacteria by dogs, as your links, amongst others suggest.

But imo, there is a risk of bacterial contamination associated with feeding any pet food. Just think about the foods that are withdrawn from the market because of (potential) contamination. A study found that the risk to humans is mostly found in pets fed in the kitchen: Human Salmonella Infections Linked to Contaminated Dry Dog and Cat Food, 2006-2008 -- Behravesh et al., 10.1542/peds.2009-3273 -- Pediatrics

To me, it comes down to basic hygiene, no matter what type of food you feed.


----------



## SlingDash

cinammontoast said:


> I'd rather you put me on UI, to be honest. It's getting tedious now. I've put you on mine.


What is "UI"?



> I would prefer to risk the small chance my dog died 'naturally' of a bone issue or a disease than to risk him having a lifetime of niggling unhealth


This is why we don't feed raw. I, for one, couldn't live with myself if our feeding the pack bones led to one of them becoming seriously ill and needing an operation - or dying as a result of our actions.

"A lifetime of niggling unhealth"? Is that what all dogs who are fed on non-raw diets have then?



> slingdash, you have strong views


Don't we all on certain things? I don't have a particularly strong view on raw feeding - I just like to offer my tuppence ha'penny's worth when I read something that interests me. Isn't that why we're all here?


----------



## 300roses

lucybichon said:


> Any solutions for dark green sloppy poos? We're just over 2 weeks into a raw diet and Lucy's poos still aren't normal. She's having chicken breast in the morning and then either bone-in thighs or chicken breast and a wing in the evening. Should I try giving her a bone-in meal at every meal time?


The poos look to me like a detox. I have experienced some soft poos when switching my gal over to raw too. Like what others have said, you can try increasing the bone. It helped for mine. Besides this, I also give mine some manuka honey to help soothe her tummy.


----------



## Horse and Hound

SlingDash said:


> Is it really "the best" for them though?


You certainly thought so when swapping over! 



SlingDash said:


> ...before deciding that none of the commercial foods are really any good, and you start feeding a raw meat and bone diet!







SlingDash said:


> Now, having thought about it, we've come to the realistaion that a raw meat and bone diet is best, and our pack is loving that!





SlingDash said:


>


----------



## sandymere

hobbs2004 said:


> Granted there is evidence to suggest that feeding a raw diet is associated with a greater shedding of salmonella and other bacteria by dogs, as your links, amongst others suggest.
> 
> But imo, there is a risk of bacterial contamination associated with feeding any pet food. Just think about the foods that are withdrawn from the market because of (potential) contamination. A study found that the risk to humans is mostly found in pets fed in the kitchen: Human Salmonella Infections Linked to Contaminated Dry Dog and Cat Food, 2006-2008 -- Behravesh et al., 10.1542/peds.2009-3273 -- Pediatrics
> 
> To me, it comes down to basic hygiene, no matter what type of food you feed.


I would agree there are risks with any dog food, research would suggest these are increased with raw feeding and that should be part of one decision on choosing this option. An infected dog will become a carrier and the bacteria will not be just on the stool but on the dog itself this should be part of the consideration if owners have young children or those with compromised immune systems. i personally try to reduce the incidence of infection with fresh food of human quality and minimize contact with children to the dogs and their area. To me its about balance of risk and being open about those risks.


----------



## SlingDash

Horse and Hound said:


> You certainly thought so when swapping over!


Gadzooks! Heaven forbid we've changed our minds after reading more and more about it.

We can do that, can't we? Change our minds, that is?

:confused1:


----------



## cinnamontoast

Horse and Hound said:


> You certainly thought so when swapping over!


Funny! Think we'll stick with what we want.


----------



## cinnamontoast

Oops, double posted.


----------



## Horse and Hound

SlingDash said:


> Gadzooks! Heaven forbid we've changed our minds after reading more and more about it.
> 
> We can do that, can't we? Change our minds, that is?
> 
> :confused1:


Of course you can change your minds, but it makes me laugh how quick you were to do so.

Here's a bit of advice though, perhaps avoid preaching and ramming your opinions down other people's throats so much!

I remember you picking my dogs diet apart when I said I wasn't into feeding raw, funnily enough you now seem to be feeding what I was at the time. 



cinammontoast said:


> Funny! Think we'll stick with what we want.


If it aint broke, don't fix it, that's what I think chuck! :thumbup:


----------



## sandymere

lucybichon said:


> Any solutions for dark green sloppy poos? We're just over 2 weeks into a raw diet and Lucy's poos still aren't normal. She's having chicken breast in the morning and then either bone-in thighs or chicken breast and a wing in the evening. Should I try giving her a bone-in meal at every meal time?


The liver secretes green bile into the small intestine; its main purpose is to digest fats. In normal digestion the colour changes from green to brown as digestion progresses and bacterial action takes place lower in the digestive tract. If the stools green it can mean that it has passed through the systems to quickly for the normal digestive processes to have taken place. A common cause would be diarrhea but the green stool is not necessarily a problem, unless there is an over production, but rather a symptom and the underlying cause of the diarrhea is what needs to be addressed. Im sure you know the common causes of diarrhea so I wont list them here. Adding more bone may mask the symptoms but that is not answering the underlying problem plus if this a transitory episode of loss stool increased bone may cause constipation once the loose stool has settled and so just create another problem. To much bone can lead to severe constipation, chalky stools and bowel impaction may follow. An appropriate fibre source may aid bacterial activity in the colon.
Regards sandy.


----------



## sandymere

I cant see why people have a problem with a general discussion about raw feeding; the thread is interspersed with just that. I replied to a question about green stools, following in the wake of a number of other replies, and no one has complained about the original post. Perhaps its just posts that discuss the negative aspect that people have a problem with? Personally I feel that a little less posting about posting and a little more about raw feeding would be a good idea. I see another thread has been commenced and will post on that but Ill also continue to post on this one if there are appropriate topics or dodgy health claims or science. 
Regards sandy.


----------



## SlingDash

> Here's a bit of advice though, perhaps avoid preaching and ramming your opinions down other people's throats so much!


I think that's a bit strong and uncalled for, don't you?

Even if it isn't, I'm going to type what I damn well like in response to things I read in a public forum, and I'm not going to be told what I can and can't post, or consider that I am obliged to feel 'censored' by you or anybody else when I do so thank you very much.



> I remember you picking my dogs diet apart when I said I wasn't into feeding raw


Can you remind me what exactly it was I said about their diet? If you can be bothered to look, that is. I certainly can't.


----------



## Horse and Hound

SlingDash said:


> I think that's a bit strong and uncalled for, don't you?
> 
> Even if it isn't, I'm going to type what I damn well like in response to things I read in a public forum, and I'm not going to be told what I can and can't post, or consider that I am obliged to feel 'censored' by you or anybody else when I do so thank you very much.


1)No I don't think its a bit strong or uncalled for as its what I feel you have been doing, and now ironically have backtracked and changed you mind.

2) And I will type what I damn well like in response to things I read in a public forum, and I'm not going to be told what I can and can't post, or consider that I am obliged to feel 'censored' by you or anyboudy else when I do so aswell, thank you very much!



SlingDash said:


> Can you remind me what exactly it was I said about their diet? If you can be bothered to look, that is. I certainly can't.


I don't need to look, I can remember it!

It was a while back. You said you had moved away from commercial food to give your dogs the best diet going, and was urging others to do the same. When I said I'd tried and reverted to wet you criticised me for not trying long enough and that I should perserver instead of feeding my dogs "commercial crap for convenience."

Like I said at the time, people should feed their dogs what they feel is right. No one has the right to tell them otherwise, certainly not a hypocrite like yourself.


----------



## SlingDash

That's settled then. We will ALL post what we damn well like (within the rules of the forum), and some of us will resort to personal insults to get their point across, while others will remain civilised.

I don't believe I have ever resorted to pathetic and unnecessary personal insults, and I can't see any mention of the phrase "*commercial crap for convenience*" anywhere. If I said it, please post a link to it - again, if you can be bothered to do so.

I think you should look up the definition of the word "hypocrite" while you're here. Had I been "preaching and ramming my opinions down other people's throats" about either feeding or not feeding a certain diet while doing the opposite, THAT would have made me a hypocrite. All I have done is change my mind on a certain issue, and all that makes me - as far as I'm aware - is human. You decided to pick up on that, and take me to task for things I said when I had a different opinion on the matter. Kind of pointless really, but hey-ho.

Sorry for going off track again Katie, but when I'm insulted and accused of things I haven't done or said, then I am bl**dy well going to defend myself.

Perhaps a moderator can step in and delete these last few posts with me and H&H's bickering, and we can continue the 'discussion' via PM in a civilised (or not so civilised - I don't care) manner?


----------



## Horse and Hound

You started the discussion about posting "what you damned well like".

I will however cave on the commercial crap for convenience issue, as I will hold my hands up and say that was another user, after one of your posts in response to one of mine, only they quoted it and it hadn't posted right so looked like you had said it, so apologies for that. I actually got a PM from said user apologising.

However, I stand by what I say. I think it is rather hypocritical to go all out and say that its the way to go then back track after what, 6 weeks, after reading something you should really have read in the first place before trying? Even I can see you jumped into something way too fast and didn't give you or your dogs chance to learn how to do things.

Be interesting to see how many Mr Foxes die of choking on big lumps of bones.

I personally think that you are extremely forceful in most of your opinions, to the extent I actually think you come across as very condescending and very much "your way or the highway". I've looked back a bit today as I've been off ill with nothing better to do and your the same be it on this forum or threads about renting houses, tick removal...

And as for getting a mod to delete the last few posts feel free, going to follow a fair few peoples advice and whack you on ignore. Problemo solved!

Sorry Katie for dragging this off topic!


----------



## katiefranke

Have just come back online after a week away and god knows what is in the last few pages, I havent even read it properly! So after 5 months of having a thread which is useful to all those new to raw, in the space of the last 2 weeks its managed to degenerate into a useless pile of personal insults and old off-topic discussions going round in circles as they are irrelevant to the people this thread is aimed at!! Good one...not! 

This is exactly what I was trying to avoid and why I asked politely for the off-topic 'discussions' to be started in new threads.

This is NOT the place for them - I cannot see why two people out of everyone in this thread cannot understand that this is not because I will not discuss it but because this is not an appropriate place for it and the continued replies to those posts derail the purpose of the thread further...if that was your intention, then well done, you've done it, as quite frankly I dont have the time or inclination to bother sorting this thread out at the moment.

I am afraid that after making a number of attempts to ask people to take their issues elsewhere to be discussed, it is clear you cannot or will not understand plain english and I will have to have the thread closed and all the rubbish removed.
*
Sorry folks, but it appears that there are always those that have to spoil the party for everyone else.*

For anyone with genuine questions or concerns, please feel free to PM me if you cant find what you need in the first page of posts and I will do my best to point you in the right direction.


----------



## MarKalAm

katiefranke said:


> I am afraid that after making a number of attempts to ask people to take their issues elsewhere, it is clear you cannot or will not understand plain english and I will have to have the thread closed and all the rubbish removed.
> *
> Sorry folks, but it appears that there are always those that have to spoil the party for everyone else.*


No Katie, don't lock it! This thread has been really useful for those who have done their own research on a raw diet and want to share experiences with other raw feeders - This is what this thread is about, *not posting huge walls of text trying to put others off when they've made their own choice. 
*
PM a mod, tell them the post numbers which are off topic and ask they be removed. Keep the thread alive, don't let the haters win. :thumbup:


----------



## cinnamontoast

Please don't have it closed! I have linked lots of people here and this thread kicked me into doing it properly. Just get the crazy huge posts and rows deleted.


----------



## Horse and Hound

Aye, I am sorry Katie, so feel free to get the mods to delete my posts on the matter. Echo what I said in my PM last night! 

I'm neither for nor against raw, but I've PM's you plenty of times for you to get that!


----------



## Mum2Heidi

Please, please dont lock it. Can we all agree to having anything non relevant deleted and as an ongoing proceedure.

I dont feed raw but am v interested in it and have learned loads about it through others stumbling blocks/success stories and just may be one day I will need this.

I'm guilty of getting involved in SD's tirade to try and maintain some status quo. _ (But head banging and brickwall/educating pork spring to mind)_

It is v difficult sometimes to keep threads on track but hopefully this can be one.

If we all do our best to "turn the other cheek" on here and may be start another thread to "let off steam" we can keep it going 
pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!!!

Katiefranke you have done a wonderful job providing all this help for those interested in feeding raw - it would be such a shame not to keep it going. You never know, we may do soooo well that we can teach you a thing or two in return:lol:


----------



## lucybichon

Please don't close the thread, it has really helped me these past few weeks. If we could get the irrelevant posts deleted and then all ignore further ones hopefully we should be okay. 

Lucy is doing well on raw chicken and turkey so far and loves crunching through the bones! She's absolutely loving her new diet! I'm going to introduce rabbit next week as I managed to get one from the butchers but it's already frozen so not sure how I'm going to be able to portion this up, any ideas? Or should I just defrost it, give it her whole and then take it away when she's eaten enough for her meal and put it back in the fridge? Only problem with this is that it looks about 3/4 days worth of food for her - will it keep that long in the fridge once defrosted? I'm also having trouble finding somewhere that does tripe, the local butchers don't have it and all the online suppliers that have been mentioned here have minimum orders (I've currently only got 2 small freezer drawers for Lucy's food so wouldn't be able to order from them). I might try some butchers a bit further afield, but if anyone knows somewhere in the Manchester/Cheshire area I can get some I would be grateful for your help!

Thanks


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## Horse and Hound

lucybichon said:


> I'm going to introduce rabbit next week as I managed to get one from the butchers but it's already frozen so not sure how I'm going to be able to portion this up, any ideas?


I know it probably won't work for you as you feed raw but what I do for Rupert with his minces is to defrost them, cook them, then re-freeze what I don't use.

You could always defrost, feed whatever raw you want, leave some raw to put in the fridge for the following day (it won't take any harm) and cook the rest and re-freeze. I know its cooked but it won't do her any harm I wouldn't have thought and would be easy to use as training treats or just as a one off?

Don't know enough about it though.


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## cinnamontoast

lucybichon said:


> I might try some butchers a bit further afield, but if anyone knows somewhere in the Manchester/Cheshire area I can get some I would be grateful for your help!
> Thanks


Keep looking: took me ages! If you have any greyhound suppliers nearby, they are very good normally-check out racing trainers etc. We checked every independent buthcers and boarding/breeding kennels til we found our guy.

Re the rabbit: defrost, give her as much as normal til it's gone. It should last a couple to three days in the fridge.


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## Horse and Hound

cinammontoast said:


> Keep looking: took me ages! If you have any greyhound suppliers nearby, they are very good normally-check out racing trainers etc. We checked every independent buthcers and boarding/breeding kennels til we found our guy.
> 
> Re the rabbit: defrost, give her as much as normal til it's gone. It should last a couple to three days in the fridge.


Hell, I've eaten chicken that I defrosted on the Wednesday on the following Monday!

Granted I cooked it but I was ok. It smelt ok so I used it.


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## Souris

Pixel had his first raw meal today, I bought three chicken quarters and broke them into four, so he had a big lump of thigh meat today (about 75g). I've never seen him so enthusiastic about food! I thought he wouldn't eat it, as he has a bad habit of just licking food and not actually eating it- he loves licking carrots and then nibbling on them (but not eating them) - but he got right in, didn't even spend five minutes licking it like he can do. Held it in-between his paws and started chewing. 

I can understand why people say raw is such a brilliant food for the teeth now, the way he chewed and chewed at the lump of thigh- he really did give the plaque a run for their money. 

Also, thank you Katie! You've been so much help, and Pixel certainly would not be eating this way without you.


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## cinnamontoast

Ooh, another Pixel! I know of another dog-cocker girl-called that. So cute!


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## Souris

Ahh, Pixel's a boy (he's a sheltie), but the name is pretty Unisex. 

The cocker's owner has an awesome taste in names, if I do say so myself! 

What are your three called, if you don't mind me asking?


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## cinnamontoast

Big dog is Brigante, Brig for short. Puppies are Bear (wide white stripe, spots), his brother is Zak.


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## katiefranke

lucybichon said:


> should I just defrost it, give it her whole and then take it away when she's eaten enough for her meal and put it back in the fridge? Only problem with this is that it looks about 3/4 days worth of food for her - will it keep that long in the fridge once defrosted?
> 
> I'm also having trouble finding somewhere that does tripe


It will probably get a bit wiffy by the 3rd-4th day to be honest - it depends on how fresh it was when it was frozen too...

Do you have a meat cleaver? I am sometimes able to chop pieces up when frozen with one - although please be VERY careful if you try this as it is easy to slip!

Otherwise, for a dog, I would probably defrost, cut up as soon as possible and then re-freeze what you dont need...I know this is a big 'no no' for human consumption but it is to do with the bacteria. It also can deplete nutrients a little. However, if you cut it up straight away and re-freeze immediately I dont think you will have any problems. I have done this a few times with no ill effects...

Re the tripe, I have trouble getting it too sometimes, as like you said most places have a min order and I have yet to find a supplier that will provide it to me locally.

However, Pets at Home do stock Prize Choice Tripe Chunks in their in-store freezers...and you might be able to find other pet stores that have similar? You can then just buy a bag at a time. The chunks are quite large - you do pay a bit for it, but its easier than having a load at a time if you have limited storage or dont use it that often.

Hope that helps!


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## katiefranke

Souris said:


> I've never seen him so enthusiastic about food! ...Held it in-between his paws and started chewing.
> 
> I can understand why people say raw is such a brilliant food for the teeth now, the way he chewed and chewed at the lump of thigh- he really did give the plaque a run for their money.
> 
> Also, thank you Katie! You've been so much help, and Pixel certainly would not be eating this way without you.


Glad to have been of help! 

Thats great news - esp that he held it in his paws! maggie wont even do that - she is a bit of madam and wont get her paws dirty!


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## Souris

katiefranke said:


> Glad to have been of help!
> 
> Thats great news - esp that he held it in his paws! maggie wont even do that - she is a bit of madam and wont get her paws dirty!


He's more than happy to hold it in his paws, in fact, when he had his meal today he decided that he wanted to bring it into the living room! I thought I'd shut the kitchen door, but apparently not- luckily it was easy enough to bring him back into the kitchen. 

I thought he might be loose, but the other end has been good too. It's solid, but the only thing I'm slightly worried about is that the end of one of his poop's this morning had a slight green tinge. It's been a normal colour since however. Should I be worried at all?



cinammontoast said:


> Big dog is Brigante, Brig for short. Puppies are Bear (wide white stripe, spots), his brother is Zak.


I love the name Bear, my other half's GSD was called Bear (down to his massive paws, which really were bear like).


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## Malmum

lucybichon said:


> Please don't close the thread, it has really helped me these past few weeks. If we could get the irrelevant posts deleted and then all ignore further ones hopefully we should be okay.


I echo that - this is a sticky to help people who want to feed raw - negetive posts should be removed as this isn't a debating thread.

Anyone not wanting to feed raw should not bother reading it as it's here for people who want positive advice about starting out on raw feeding.

It's always the same poster/s who cause a rumpus - not fair on everyone else!


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## EBT

Katie, is there a section on feeding a pup the raw diet buried somewhere in these pages please? If not, at what age would you suggest is it sensible to start them on raw?
Was thinking i'd wait until she is about 6 months old and all baby teeth had gone.
I've lost all sense and getting another EBT!
Thanks for excellent thread, keep it going.


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## luvmydogs

I wean my puppies onto raw. As soon as they have teeth (even baby ones) they can eat meat.


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## delightfuldior

I have decided to stop feeding raw. Many reasons, the preparing was time consuming and time ain't on my side. To bag up three chunks of meat for morning feeds was tedious, I kept running out of meat, the meat joints are expensive and I jusg can't keep up with it. My two lhasa's have put weight on yet they seem hungry all the time. My boys teeth hasn't improved although my girls gum disease has reduced which I am
pleased with. My boy has a sicky tummy and although his stools improved they are back to loose. Raw doesn't suit my lifestyle and although I know it's a good diet it's not suited to us :-(


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## cinnamontoast

Souris said:


> I love the name Bear, my other half's GSD was called Bear (down to his massive paws, which really were bear like).


It's my Dad's nickname so he thought it was a bit odd, especially as he was here when we got the pups! It's because the dog was so cuddly, so teddy bear-like when I picked him up.



EBT said:


> Katie, is there a section on feeding a pup the raw diet buried somewhere in these pages please? If not, at what age would you suggest is it sensible to start them on raw?
> Was thinking i'd wait until she is about 6 months old and all baby teeth had gone.


My lot lost baby teeth before they hit 5 months and had been on raw for a little while before that. I'd say start on chicken, possibly breast meat, then wings and see how you go.


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## XxZoexX

Ive foud the raw has really helped get with the teething and for his very sore days have some good old Bakers tripe in the cupboard He's doing really well on it at 5 months x


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## cinnamontoast

*TUMERIC*

I originally bought some when I thought I'd feed BARF but then went pure raw.

A lot of people feed it to their horses for arthritis and reckon it's as good as any commercial flexibilty supplement. As big dog has a touch of arthritis, I'd like to give him some: any ideas on how much I should give a 21kg springer?


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## sandymere

katiefranke said:


> It will probably get a bit wiffy by the 3rd-4th day to be honest - it depends on how fresh it was when it was frozen too...
> 
> Do you have a meat cleaver? I am sometimes able to chop pieces up when frozen with one - although please be VERY careful if you try this as it is easy to slip!
> 
> Otherwise, for a dog, I would probably defrost, cut up as soon as possible and then re-freeze what you dont need...I know this is a big 'no no' for human consumption but it is to do with the bacteria. It also can deplete nutrients a little. However, if you cut it up straight away and re-freeze immediately I dont think you will have any problems. I have done this a few times with no ill effects...
> 
> Re the tripe, I have trouble getting it too sometimes, as like you said most places have a min order and I have yet to find a supplier that will provide it to me locally.
> 
> However, Pets at Home do stock Prize Choice Tripe Chunks in their in-store freezers...and you might be able to find other pet stores that have similar? You can then just buy a bag at a time. The chunks are quite large - you do pay a bit for it, but its easier than having a load at a time if you have limited storage or dont use it that often.
> 
> Hope that helps!


Personally I would hesitate to defrost then re freeze better to , as Horse and Hound suggests, cook prior to refreezing, salmonella, the most common, bacteria are killed by temperatures above 66 degrees Celsius. If you feel you can only feed raw then defrost in a fridge, Im sure you would anyway, the cells do not divide below 4 degree C.


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## EBT

Thanks for replies. My grilfriend's not convinced on feeding raw to a pup but I'll see what I feel like nearer the time.


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## collienuts

Hi I'm new to the forum, i'm very interested in changing from dry kibble to raw feeding for my dogs and this thread has been really useful for me. I have a couple of concerns I wonder if anyone can help with? I'm concerned regarding the cost of feeding raw and after looking into some sources locally I don't think it's something I'd be able to afford to do if only buying free range meats. The supermarkets do some pretty good bargains but is their cheap meat really any good for feeding raw? i've read allsorts about the hormones/antibiotics used in farming, would i be as well to give them a good quality kibble as give cheap raw?
also i'm concerned about how practical this will be for when I'm away as I travel with my dogs quite a lot, I've heard that it's not a good idea to feed raw & commercial food as they are digested at different rates but is this just dry or would there be a moist food that would be suitable for when we are on the go?
thanks


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## cinnamontoast

If you look at one of my latest posts, I sourced tripe at about 30p a lb and the same for chicken mince. Chicken carcasses are dirt cheap, too. You've just got to find a decent butcher that does bones and offal or get hold of one of the online companies mentioned in this thread (Dog Food Company, Landywoods etc)

I don't know about travelling, I'm already planning 2 days' worth of raw for a couple of days away at Christmas. There are excellent alternatives available like Nature Diet.


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## cinnamontoast

EBT said:


> Thanks for replies. My grilfriend's not convinced on feeding raw to a pup but I'll see what I feel like nearer the time.


Some people on here have weaned pups onto raw. Mine were swapped to raw at about 3.5/4 months. We've had no issues.


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## willowbee

Hi
I'm new to this forum but we are raw feeding our 3 year old Golden Retriever Willow very successfully after endless problems with kibble. She was riddled with dandruff and had terrible ears, breath, colitis etc etc. Since changing her to raw food, she is a different dog and is in fantastic health. So i am already a convert but we are getting a puppy in 2 days time and i'm a bit nervous about how to start her off. She has been weaned on to kibble and i don't want to upset her stomach by changing her too quickly and i'm also not sure what to do about the milk component of her diet. I would be really grateful if you could give me some pointers as i really want her to enjoy all the advantages that Willow has from a natural and tasty diet.
Many thanks in advance :thumbup:


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## oveione

Hi i started my pup bruno on raw the day after i bought him home you can change him straight away or keep him on his dry food for a few days until he settles in .When i first started bruno on raw i used to bash the wings up so the bone was a bit broken up so it was easier just remember to start on one protien for a few weeks then gradually introduce new meats i found swapping bruno over a lot easier then i did my older dog sassy regards tummy issues as he was not to bad plus he ate everything i gave him where as sassy still is a bit funny but is getting better i didnt give bruno any milk hope this helps






my boy with his chicken at about 13 weeks


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## oveione

sorry just reread your post and realished its a girl and congrats on your new pup:thumbup:


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## sandymere

EBT said:


> Thanks for replies. My grilfriend's not convinced on feeding raw to a pup but I'll see what I feel like nearer the time.


It is worth bearing in mind when considering feeding young pups on a raw diet that there are definite risks involved. For the basic wolf cub, food is delivered by the adults as part digested meat as it is carried in the stomach and regurgitated so the digestive process is already underway. Feeding non digested meat is a challenge to a young pup as it hasnt got the dentation to deal appropriately with it ie milk teeth and so choking is a risk. One answer is mincing but pet quality meat, especially minced, may well carry an overly large bacterial load where the fresh caught prey would not and this to will be a major challenge to a young digestive system. Then there is nutritional balance ie right amount of calcium etc without a very good knowledge of dietetics this can be a bit of a minefield. In truth the question as to when it would be appropriate to commence a raw diet for a pup would be best answered by a discussion with your vet rather than a layperson.


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## Souris

sandymere said:


> Feeding non digested meat is a challenge to a young pup as it hasnt got the dentation to deal appropriately with it ie milk teeth and so choking is a risk.


I will say one thing- Pixel has not had ANY issues chomping up bones. He's an extremely methodical eater that takes an AGE to eat his dinner (it can take him up to twenty minutes to eat a drumstick), and he crunches up every bone beautifully.

When I was looking into feeding Pixel raw, this feeding list was fantastic, and might be able to answer any questions you have. They also have a few articles on pup's dietary requirement in regards to calcium ratios that would be worth a read if you were interested in bringing up a pup on raw. If you have a vet that's raw friendly, then yes, discuss it with them as well.

Best of luck! What breed of pup are you getting?


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## cinnamontoast

I love the butcher! I went in to order chicken carcasses but he reckons no chance before Christmas. He asked what else they eat and offered me a massive bin bag full of turkey bits. It weighs about 3 stones! 

I butchered carcasses and sorted it all into portioned bags: just managed to squidge it all in the freezer (thank God we bought a huge one!) I have three very happy dogs who will be having turkey for Christmas.


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## EBT

Souris said:


> I will say one thing- Pixel has not had ANY issues chomping up bones. He's an extremely methodical eater that takes an AGE to eat his dinner (it can take him up to twenty minutes to eat a drumstick), and he crunches up every bone beautifully.
> 
> When I was looking into feeding Pixel raw, this feeding list was fantastic, and might be able to answer any questions you have. They also have a few articles on pup's dietary requirement in regards to calcium ratios that would be worth a read if you were interested in bringing up a pup on raw. If you have a vet that's raw friendly, then yes, discuss it with them as well.
> 
> Best of luck! What breed of pup are you getting?


If that question's aimed at me, i'm getting (well just got) a third English Bull Terrier. My other two are raw fed but have decided to feed the pup on Orijen puppy food until she has grown a bit. I'll just change her diet when I feel confident in her being ok on it. My vet isn't against the RMB diet but he wouldn't recommend it, and my mum's is totally against it.


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## cinnamontoast

I've yet to discuss raw diets with the vet, having had no occasion to go there for a while. I am of the opinion, tho, that he may not be thrilled as he stocks Science Plan or whatever. Whilst of course the vet is more knowledgeable than a forum in most cases, I feel that some may not advocate raw feeding but I am convinced that it's what I want to carry on doing.


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## rawdogs

For anyone interested in rawfeeding pups this is a great site and shows a photo guide to raising pups on raw.

www.krisannriorawfeeding.com


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## Jonesey

I'm new to the site, but have enjoyed reading this giant thread!

We have a 7 1/2mth old mini golden doodle. We had a lot of trouble with Biscuit's diet the first few weeks, she couldn't eat the kibble and had the runs on tinned food. Even grain free tinned. A nice man at the pet place convinced me to try raw and we switched. This is not a RMB diet, it's commercial raw. The meat is pre-ground with the bones and organ meat. I tried RMB and all she did was bury or try to hide them. Every once in a while she'd take a chicken neck, but then refused even them.

Our problem is that Biscuit is very very picky. She will not eat the 'complete' raw they sell (based on the BARF model), nor will she just eat the minced protein/bones/organs on it's own. And the only protein she likes raw is chicken. Sigh. I can sometimes get her to eat the minced rabbit with 'botanicals' (grasses and seeds), but it is hard to find and often not in stock. The raw beef with botanicals makes her vomit.

I've ended up make her a mix myself. I mix the minced chicken (with bones and organs) with some grated sweet potato, blueberries, sea kelp and herring oil. On the side I add boiled beef or veal liver that I've smushed and I boil down the broth from that and add gelatin - I call it liver sauce jello.

So. The last time I was at the pet store getting her protein one of the staff admonished me saying that by only feeding chicken I'm going to cause my dog allergies and that it's akin to feeding commercial kibble. I asked WTH I'm supposed to do if she won't eat the other stuff? I have honestly tried everything and Biscuit will wait me out, she has fasted herself for two days straight, till she is puking up foam and bile from her stomach being empty. She will refuse her food even if I've only added in a little different raw protein mix except for the occasional rabbit with botanicals. She'll also sometimes eat tinned salmon, but again only a little. I've increased her cooked liver, but is that enough? She will eat just about any cooked meat scraps if she's smelled us eating them first, but I don't think they're nutritionally sound enough for her.

I tried the grain free tinned again, but even just mixing a little in her food is enough to make her poops runny. She absolutely cannot have kibble, the last time she got into some (at a friend's house) she had terrible diarrhea for 36hrs straight.

Any ideas? I just want to do the best for Biscuit. I've been doubting myself now as before being told off I thought she was doing bloody well on her diet!


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## hobbs2004

Jonesey said:


> I'm new to the site, but have enjoyed reading this giant thread!
> 
> We have a 7 1/2mth old mini golden doodle. We had a lot of trouble with Biscuit's diet the first few weeks, she couldn't eat the kibble and had the runs on tinned food. Even grain free tinned. A nice man at the pet place convinced me to try raw and we switched. This is not a RMB diet, it's commercial raw. The meat is pre-ground with the bones and organ meat. I tried RMB and all she did was bury or try to hide them. Every once in a while she'd take a chicken neck, but then refused even them.
> 
> Our problem is that Biscuit is very very picky. She will not eat the 'complete' raw they sell (based on the BARF model), nor will she just eat the minced protein/bones/organs on it's own. And the only protein she likes raw is chicken. Sigh. I can sometimes get her to eat the minced rabbit with 'botanicals' (grasses and seeds), but it is hard to find and often not in stock. The raw beef with botanicals makes her vomit.
> 
> I've ended up make her a mix myself. I mix the minced chicken (with bones and organs) with some grated sweet potato, blueberries, sea kelp and herring oil. On the side I add boiled beef or veal liver that I've smushed and I boil down the broth from that and add gelatin - I call it liver sauce jello.
> 
> So. The last time I was at the pet store getting her protein one of the staff admonished me saying that by only feeding chicken I'm going to cause my dog allergies and that it's akin to feeding commercial kibble. I asked WTH I'm supposed to do if she won't eat the other stuff? I have honestly tried everything and Biscuit will wait me out, she has fasted herself for two days straight, till she is puking up foam and bile from her stomach being empty. She will refuse her food even if I've only added in a little different raw protein mix except for the occasional rabbit with botanicals. She'll also sometimes eat tinned salmon, but again only a little. I've increased her cooked liver, but is that enough? She will eat just about any cooked meat scraps if she's smelled us eating them first, but I don't think they're nutritionally sound enough for her.
> 
> I tried the grain free tinned again, but even just mixing a little in her food is enough to make her poops runny. She absolutely cannot have kibble, the last time she got into some (at a friend's house) she had terrible diarrhea for 36hrs straight.
> 
> Any ideas? I just want to do the best for Biscuit. I've been doubting myself now as before being told off I thought she was doing bloody well on her diet!


Welcome to the PF! Dogs aren't my forte - cats are - but the principles are largely the same!

One thought springs to mind. If your paws likes chicken, have you tried turkey, duck to increase her protein range? Tried rabbit from the shop etc if the one she likes is hard to get (probably seasonal availability)

Personally, I think the statement from that shop person was a bit harsh. It is true that you should try to feed as much of a variety as possible as all meats have slightly different nutrient make-ups. However, that is in an ideal world and your dog currently doesn't play ball.

You say you know feed more liver- how much liver are you feeding? And how much other offal? And this liver is from animals other than chicken?

The only other trick I can think of is that if she likes to eat cooked meat to cook it less and less over time until she is happy eating it raw.

Hope that helps!


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## Jonesey

hobbs2004 said:


> Welcome to the PF! Dogs aren't my forte - cats are - but the principles are largely the same!
> 
> One thought springs to mind. If your paws likes chicken, have you tried turkey, duck to increase her protein range? Tried rabbit from the shop etc if the one she likes is hard to get (probably seasonal availability)
> 
> Personally, I think the statement from that shop person was a bit harsh. It is true that you should try to feed as much of a variety as possible as all meats have slightly different nutrient make-ups. However, that is in an ideal world and your dog currently doesn't play ball.
> 
> You say you know feed more liver- how much liver are you feeding? And how much other offal? And this liver is from animals other than chicken?
> 
> The only other trick I can think of is that if she likes to eat cooked meat to cook it less and less over time until she is happy eating it raw.
> 
> Hope that helps!


Thanks for the reply. Yes the shop lady was not nice at all, I felt like a formula feeding mother being told I was going to ruin my baby's health (and ftr I did bf, I'm just not militant about it). I feel like I'm doing the best that I can for this dog. And I spend quite a bit doing it too.

I have tried the raw turkey, duck and venison as well, Biscuit won't eat them. I tried the plain minced rabbit (ground with the bone and organ meat) and mixed it with her usual mix and she wouldn't eat it either. We have a very fussy dog. I think she would pretty much eat anything that I serve at the table (she's always interested in what we're eating) so maybe if I start the children on a raw meat diet she'd eat it then? lol

The beef/calf liver I feed is cooked and as I said I mix the broth with a little gelatin so she can get the nutrients from that. About an 8th of a cup per feed was my usual, now I try to give a bit more. Any kind of raw beef makes her vomit. I also add grocery store bought chicken gizzards to her raw mix when they are available. I bought green tripe strips (meh - they stink!) and she promptly buried the one I gave her.

The other thing is that she's inconsistent with the amount she eats each day. We pretty much feed her any time she seems hungry, for a day or two she might eat once per day and then all of a sudden have four feeds and be looking for snacks. I chalk that up to her still being a pup.


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## sandymere

I shouldnt worry to much what pet store staff say. If you want advice then the vet is the best place but from a laypersons perspective. Basically protein is made up of amino acids and meat is made of proteins, the dogs digestive processes break down the meat into its constituent amino acids then uses these to build new proteins such as muscle etc as the body requires them. Chicken, either cooked or raw, will have all the essential amino acids although perhaps not ideal as a sole source but there is no reason why it should cause allergies. Personally I would use any the other meats that are tolerated and cooked will be just fine, I would also add in cooked vegetable matter as it is absorbed better than raw. Lastly adding in a plain dog biscuit or pasta, oats etc will give a variation of protein along with some fat and carbs. The fibre will also aid with good digestive health. Any dietary change should be undertaken slowly but from your post I guess you already know that.
Try feeding at the same time each day, putting the food down then removing what is nor eaten after half an hour to try and get a digestive routine going
Good luck s


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## Jonesey

Thanks Sandy. Unfortunately the vets here are all adamantly against raw feeding at all. The university is heavily sponsored by the pet food industry. We have a really nice vet, but she doesn't own her clinic and of course they sell their own brands of food so that's pretty much the answer I'd get - buy from us! I know a holistic vet who is on board with raw, but she's an hour away from us and my husband insisted on having a local vet in case there's an emergency situation.

I will do some research on cooked vs. raw veggies, but I really don't want to add in any grains. Biscuit reacts to wheat and I just found out oats as well from trying a new treat. I'm sure she'd be okay with rice, but most of what I've read advises against it.


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## Freya'n'Sassy

You don't want to be feeding your dog with any grain, fruit or veg... Cooked or raw. Your dog is a wolf, a wolf does not eat fruit and veg unless it eats a very tiny animal ie a mouse. If you study the wolf it actually shakes the stomach of its prey, so the contents lay untouched on the floor. They do not consume them as many think.

I have 7 dogs, all raw fed from the day they enter my home, if they weren't raw weaned. They are not allowed to be "fussy", its us humans that make them that way!!! They are given a piece of meat with bone in it that is suitable for the size of dog they are (I have Newfoundlands, German Shepherds and Cocker Spaniels) and then they are left to get on with it. If they don't eat it in 20/30 minutes then it gets picked up and put in the fridge until their next meal time. Some dogs who have been taught to be fussy may take a few days to buckle and eat what they are given, but they do it in the end, and then generally speaking, they eat what ever you give them, when you give it.

My group eat all types of meat and bones, green tripe, liver, kidney, heart, fish and eggs. They don't get vaccinations either, I want them to remain healthy!!! We went to the vet for the first time in years the other week, as our youngest dog has a wet eye, the vet asked what we fed.... having remarked on how good she was looking. He was told we feed a raw meat and bone diet, his reply was that they don't recommend it, and we said that basically that was tough as that is what we do and we would never recommend the rubbish they sell... No more was said!

BTW, someone put a link to the Krisannrio raw feeding... The youngster in my avatar, and dark one in my signature (now nearly 3 years old) is a Krisannrio pup


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## sprollie16

I am a newbie to this site but have been researching raw for a while now and have decided to give it a go over the last couple of days. I have a freezer full of chichen quarters and thighs but my 2 dogs are having trouble with them. 

Quite simply they are refusing the raw meat and look at it in disgust!!! I think the texture of the chicken is a bit strange for them. I've been leaving it down for an hour then picking it up until the next mealtime but don't like the idea of keeping the raw chicken too long after it's been defrosted - so am throwing a lot away :eek6:

Yesterday when I asked my OH to get some thighs out of the freezer for the dogs (to defrost for their brekkie) he misunderstood  and gave them straight to the dogs and they both got stuck in and polished them off. Is it dangerous to give them raw meat still frozen? Could I gradually wean them onto the meat through different levels of frozen-ness? Would it be dangerous to give a frozen meaty bone - would this splinter in the same way as a cooked bone?

sorry for the EXTREMELY long post but just wondering if other raw feeders experienced their animals not liking raw meat??? BTW they are happy to eat raw chicken mince


----------



## Terr

cinammontoast said:


> I've yet to discuss raw diets with the vet, having had no occasion to go there for a while. I am of the opinion, tho, that he may not be thrilled as he stocks Science Plan or whatever. Whilst of course the vet is more knowledgeable than a forum in most cases, I feel that some may not advocate raw feeding but I am convinced that it's what I want to carry on doing.


Vets get taught pretty much nothing about nutrition at university. I feel that you would get a much more honest answer from the posters on these forums.

I know I never tell my vet anything about my dog's diet because all I ever hear from them is that Science Plan is magic.

On a side note and more fitting to the thread. I fed my dog raw for the first time yesterday as my order for dry has not arrived due to the weather/backlog.

It was only beef mince with rice but he loved it!


----------



## Nicky10

sprollie16 said:


> I am a newbie to this site but have been researching raw for a while now and have decided to give it a go over the last couple of days. I have a freezer full of chichen quarters and thighs but my 2 dogs are having trouble with them.
> 
> Quite simply they are refusing the raw meat and look at it in disgust!!! I think the texture of the chicken is a bit strange for them. I've been leaving it down for an hour then picking it up until the next mealtime but don't like the idea of keeping the raw chicken too long after it's been defrosted - so am throwing a lot away :eek6:
> 
> Yesterday when I asked my OH to get some thighs out of the freezer for the dogs (to defrost for their brekkie) he misunderstood  and gave them straight to the dogs and they both got stuck in and polished them off. Is it dangerous to give them raw meat still frozen? Could I gradually wean them onto the meat through different levels of frozen-ness? Would it be dangerous to give a frozen meaty bone - would this splinter in the same way as a cooked bone?
> 
> sorry for the EXTREMELY long post but just wondering if other raw feeders experienced their animals not liking raw meat??? BTW they are happy to eat raw chicken mince


No you can give them it frozen shouldn't be a problem


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## sprollie16

Thanks Nicky,
I'll keep giving some frozen but also keep trying them on the defosted stuff


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## sandymere

Freya'n'Sassy said:


> You don't want to be feeding your dog with any grain, fruit or veg... Cooked or raw. Your dog is a wolf, a wolf does not eat fruit and veg unless it eats a very tiny animal ie a mouse. If you study the wolf it actually shakes the stomach of its prey, so the contents lay untouched on the floor. They do not consume them as many think.
> 
> I have 7 dogs, all raw fed from the day they enter my home, if they weren't raw weaned. They are not allowed to be "fussy", its us humans that make them that way!!! They are given a piece of meat with bone in it that is suitable for the size of dog they are (I have Newfoundlands, German Shepherds and Cocker Spaniels) and then they are left to get on with it. If they don't eat it in 20/30 minutes then it gets picked up and put in the fridge until their next meal time. Some dogs who have been taught to be fussy may take a few days to buckle and eat what they are given, but they do it in the end, and then generally speaking, they eat what ever you give them, when you give it.
> 
> My group eat all types of meat and bones, green tripe, liver, kidney, heart, fish and eggs. They don't get vaccinations either, I want them to remain healthy!!! We went to the vet for the first time in years the other week, as our youngest dog has a wet eye, the vet asked what we fed.... having remarked on how good she was looking. He was told we feed a raw meat and bone diet, his reply was that they don't recommend it, and we said that basically that was tough as that is what we do and we would never recommend the rubbish they sell... No more was said!
> 
> BTW, someone put a link to the Krisannrio raw feeding... The youngster in my avatar, and dark one in my signature (now nearly 3 years old) is a Krisannrio pup


 DON'T GET VACINATIONS lordy, thats why there is a big parvo outbreak at present:frown:.
Ps study wolves and you will find they do eat lots of vegetable matter:.


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## Nicky10

No but don't you know dogs could live for like 80 years if you don't vaccinate . To me it's idiotic but a lot of raw feeders believe they are teh evol and are killing your dogs


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## sandymere

Lololololololololololololololololololololoolololololololololololololol eighty years! i've heard that too, can't beat a little psuedo science:thumbup:
link about vaccines
Vaccine required to stop this madness | Michael Fitzpatrick - Times Online


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## Nicky10

Humans can live insanely long too all those pesky antibiotics and vaccines that's what killing us too early not you know extending our lives due to stopping disease.


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## sandymere

Terr said:


> Vets get taught pretty much nothing about nutrition at university. I feel that you would get a much more honest answer from the posters on these forums.
> 
> I know I never tell my vet anything about my dog's diet because all I ever hear from them is that Science Plan is magic.
> 
> On a side note and more fitting to the thread. I fed my dog raw for the first time yesterday as my order for dry has not arrived due to the weather/backlog.
> 
> It was only beef mince with rice but he loved it!


Vets get a very good grounding in anatomy and physiology so understand about the digestive processes very well and there are a few that have looked into this field in some depth. They will advise from a knowledge base rather than a pseudo science base. If any on here feel they know more than vet I would be interested to hear their thoughts, Im ever willing for new insight:thumbup:.


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## MarKalAm

There are numerous threads on here discussing the pros and cons of vaccinations, and sadly also the stories of people who have lost their pets following routine vaccs, too.
I chose not vaccinate my boy, following advise after his Pancreatitis attack. But it's up to others if they do, and I don't make fun of people for their choices, either.


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## Sparkle

Fab thread 

Both my girls are raw fed when I got daisy she had so many problems was bleeding from her bowls very sloppy stools and I was constantly down the vet eventually I worked out she was allergic to grains and processed 'dog food' (I was finishing up what the breeder sent) put her straight on raw and minus the odd problem when she eats stuff out the garden she shouldn't she's been a picture of health!!


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## Nicky10

Great to see such small dogs eating raw. Not many people do


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## Sparkle

It's sad really a lot of my friends do too I don't like dry foods don't agree with them but ziwipeak is a fab food I use it on occasion it's a dehydrated raw I know some people can't hack the whole raw meat thing so is a good alternative

Anyway these pictures amuse me for info lotus is 3lb was prob 2.5 in these daisy is 4 1/2lb adult


















They eat 2-3oz a day

Here's a chick pic









Bless my babies


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## Nicky10

They look like they enjoy their food.


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## Sparkle

They love it both dance at meal times they would eat an entire cow if they could!


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## cinnamontoast

OK, really duh question.

Big dog has gone back on Orijen as he was standing looking at the raw food and not eating it (nothing new added, the same stuff he's had for months). He likes green tripe, chicken wings, pork but won't touch offal, fish, chicken mince which was being carefully licked then left.

Anyway, question is, can I feed Orijen with some raw (at the same meal) or is it just as bad as feeding other kibble plus raw, different rates of digestion etc? I suppose I can feed raw for one meal and Orijen for another as long as there's a 12 hour split?


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## dalehitchy

jus gave my GSD pup her first bit of raw meat....

got her two thigh bones (about 500g).. first she started to lick it until i held it and then the bites got bigger... until she start using her back teeth to bite off bones / chunks of meat.

she didnt seem happy she had to make extra effort... but im sure she will get use to it... she ate it all anyway


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## demi

i feed my dog a mixture of dog food ( which i often run out of ) and normal food. she gets, all in one pot ( i use an old cooking pot), bones boiled in stalk (could include a whole sheeps skull with the brain and everything, its gross) plus a cup of dog food, a whole loaf of bread and any left overs from our plates all mixed up together, twice a day. shes been on that since we got her without any problems. we get free bones and leftovers from the buchers on our street and bread past its sell by date from the local shop.
and i feed her that more for cost reasons than for health ones, but its probably healthier too. 

she always picks the bones out first and chomps through them like they're a piece of bread! then she eats the rest. occationally, if there is too much for her to eat she burrys the bones in the garden then digs them up later when shes hungry!


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## Sparkle

demi said:


> i feed my dog a mixture of dog food ( which i often run out of ) and normal food. she gets, all in one pot ( i use an old cooking pot), bones boiled in stalk (could include a whole sheeps skull with the brain and everything, its gross) plus a cup of dog food, a whole loaf of bread and any left overs from our plates all mixed up together, twice a day. shes been on that since we got her without any problems. we get free bones and leftovers from the buchers on our street and bread past its sell by date from the local shop.
> and i feed her that more for cost reasons than for health ones, but its probably healthier too.
> 
> she always picks the bones out first and chomps through them like they're a piece of bread! then she eats the rest. occationally, if there is too much for her to eat she burrys the bones in the garden then digs them up later when shes hungry!


Not sure if I read this correctly buy do you boil the bones?? You should never feed cooked bones of any sort as they can splinter cause an impaction all sorts!! It also takes the nutrients out of the meat the only meat so to speak that doesn't loose nutrients is liver which obviously counts as organ

The orijen and raw I'd do 12 hours apart bevuase of digestion rates


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## Malmum

demi said:


> i feed my dog a mixture of dog food ( which i often run out of ) and normal food. she gets, all in one pot ( i use an old cooking pot), bones boiled in stalk (could include a whole sheeps skull with the brain and everything, its gross) plus a cup of dog food, a whole loaf of bread and any left overs from our plates all mixed up together, twice a day. shes been on that since we got her without any problems. we get free bones and leftovers from the buchers on our street and bread past its sell by date from the local shop.
> and i feed her that more for cost reasons than for health ones, but its probably healthier too.
> 
> she always picks the bones out first and chomps through them like they're a piece of bread! then she eats the rest. occationally, if there is too much for her to eat she burrys the bones in the garden then digs them up later when shes hungry!


How very bizarre!!! :confused1:


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## Devil-Dogz

Malmum said:


> How very bizarre!!! :confused1:


Just what I thought! 

we get bones weekly from a local villiage butcher, and we order tripe on a monthly basis!

Through out the week we give a vaired diet from the bones, meat and tripe to organ and veg - they like raw eggs to.


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## dalehitchy

starting to get nice solid poos after weeks of soft ones ( was feeding bakers... i know..  )

anyway... argos also delivered my freezer today... so i have extra room for meats now... she has a bigger freezer than me. (for anyone thats looking for an extra freezer.. i bought this one from argos... and its quite large and not too pricey )

Buy Bush BSCF145 Chest Freezer - White. at Argos.co.uk - Your Online Shop for .

anyway... she seems to have no problem chomping down bones and seems to be using the correct teeth for ripping, grinding, breaking etc. I do hold the piece of meat while shes getting used to it... she finds it easier to eat with me as she can pull pieces off.... but in time im sure she can do it herself


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## dvnbiker

wow what a mammoth post - I have just read all 68 pages of it!

I dabbled in raw about 18 months ago but was feeding just plain mince (varying types) with mixer biscuits and then a couple of meals a week were chicken wings but wasn't convinced it was balanced and decided to pull them off it, plus I was away competing and was struggling with the keeping it frozen etc. Though I must say they stayed on that for about 4 months and everyone commented on how good they looked and one my dogs' times at agility even got better - that could just be coincidence.

Anyway decided to take the plunge with just one of my dogs for the moment, she has never got on with kibble and is currently fed natures harvest but its expensive and after doing a price comparison I can actually feed Natural Instinct for a bit less so I am going to do that to start to with to see how she gets on with a proper balanced for a month and then order less the next month and start introducing more that I can source locally. Unfortunately we dont have a butcher around here willing to give out carcusses etc so will have to order those. 

I did try landywoods last time - never again, order was wrong and it was late so half the stuff was defrosted. 

What would people say are the decent easy to understand books on the subject?


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## rawdogs

I think the easiest book on raw feeding is TOM LONSDALES WORK WONDERS

straightforward and simple.:thumbup:


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## dalehitchy

Can anyone help....

Ive been feeding my dog raw for over a week.... Usually dry in the morning and raw at night just to ease her in.....tho i know she prefers her raw food by far. Was going well but now she has began to get diorreah. No blood atm...but im quite worried....

Is this normal?


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## Jasper's Bloke

dalehitchy said:


> Can anyone help....
> 
> Ive been feeding my dog raw for over a week.... Usually dry in the morning and raw at night just to ease her in.....tho i know she prefers her raw food by far. Was going well but now she has began to get diorreah. No blood atm...but im quite worried....
> 
> Is this normal?


What exactly have you been feeding her?


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## dalehitchy

Chicken mince (has no bone in) and wings


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## Jasper's Bloke

dalehitchy said:


> Chicken mince (has no bone in) and wings


It is possible that she just doesn't do too well on chicken and you may want to try introducing another meat such as lamb or beef. More likely though is that as she has become accustomed to processing the chicken, it is the kibble that is upsetting her. If I mess up and run out of food and have to resort to kibble for a day then I know I am going to regret it the next day.

Raw food is digested by the body much quicker than processed foods, in a matter of hours rather than days, so feeding the two together can sometimes cause a tummy upset. The reason dogs can tolerate raw meats that would turn a human tum inside out is because they get through the system so quickly that any nasty bacteria simply don't have time to multiply to the point where they will cause a problem. If they are held up in there by much slower digesting commercial kibble then that may be the root of the problem.

Also think about anything else she has been eating, such as treats or snacks.

Try some larger joints such as chicken legs (if she is a suitable size) without the kibble for a few days to see how she is and then start to introduce another meat.


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## Nicky10

dalehitchy said:


> Chicken mince (has no bone in) and wings


Bones can help firm up their stools if they're having problems. A lot of dogs need higher bone percentages the first few weeks. If you're planning on feeding fully raw just take the kibble out of the diet now


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## sandymere

Jasper's Bloke said:


> It is possible that she just doesn't do too well on chicken and you may want to try introducing another meat such as lamb or beef. More likely though is that as she has become accustomed to processing the chicken, it is the kibble that is upsetting her. If I mess up and run out of food and have to resort to kibble for a day then I know I am going to regret it the next day.
> 
> Raw food is digested by the body much quicker than processed foods, in a matter of hours rather than days, so feeding the two together can sometimes cause a tummy upset. The reason dogs can tolerate raw meats that would turn a human tum inside out is because they get through the system so quickly that any nasty bacteria simply don't have time to multiply to the point where they will cause a problem. If they are held up in there by much slower digesting commercial kibble then that may be the root of the problem.
> 
> Also think about anything else she has been eating, such as treats or snacks.
> 
> Try some larger joints such as chicken legs (if she is a suitable size) without the kibble for a few days to see how she is and then start to introduce another meat.


The statement Raw food is digested by the body much quicker than processed foods is utter bumpkin! Food is digested a different rates depending on its make up ie high fat foods will digest slowly, simple sugers very quickly, usually the more processed the food the quicker it will digest. Dried food without water will digest slowly as it needs water, dried food with a dog that has access to water will digest reasonably quickly as there is little breakdown necessary in the stomach. So food is digested at an appropriate rate whether raw, cooked or a mixture. Bacteria do build up in a dogs digestive tract as has been demonstrated in numerous studies and does become a problem. Chicken mince is very likely to carry a high bacterial load and as such could well be the cause of the loose stool. Food poisoning is not rocket science. Chicken portions may have a lower bacterial load but feeding a basic commercial feed or cooked chicken may settle things down and cooked chicken meat will be just fine.:thumbup:


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## Jasper's Bloke

sandymere said:


> The statement Raw food is digested by the body much quicker than processed foods is utter bumpkin! Food is digested a different rates depending on its make up ie high fat foods will digest slowly, simple sugers very quickly, usually the more processed the food the quicker it will digest. Dried food without water will digest slowly as it needs water, dried food with a dog that has access to water will digest reasonably quickly as there is little breakdown necessary in the stomach. So food is digested at an appropriate rate whether raw, cooked or a mixture. Bacteria do build up in a dogs digestive tract as has been demonstrated in numerous studies and does become a problem. Chicken mince is very likely to carry a high bacterial load and as such could well be the cause of the loose stool. Food poisoning is not rocket science. Chicken portions may have a lower bacterial load but feeding a basic commercial feed or cooked chicken may settle things down and cooked chicken meat will be just fine.:thumbup:


You seem to be utterly convinced by the articles you have read but have you not considered that there may be other research that reaches different conclusions to those that you keep preaching as gospel?

This thread is about feeding raw food and the vast majority of people who have posted on it and many more who have read it have gone on to reap the many benefits of feeding a more natural diet (natural as in raw, I doubt dogs in the wild would cook their food as they could never afford the gas bills). There is a wealth of useful information here that has helped lots of members and I can quite honestly say that from personal experience and regardless of any other research you may care to quote it is not 'bumpkin' and is most certainly not 'dodgy advice' as I believe you recently called it (when referring directly to this thread).

If you do not agree with the advice given by people who have been feeding their pets this way for many years then that is your prerogative, but at least have the respect to not blatantly dismiss their experience and insult them just because of it.


----------



## sandymere

Jasper's Bloke said:


> You seem to be utterly convinced by the articles you have read but have you not considered that there may be other research that reaches different conclusions to those that you keep preaching as gospel?
> 
> This thread is about feeding raw food and the vast majority of people who have posted on it and many more who have read it have gone on to reap the many benefits of feeding a more natural diet (natural as in raw, I doubt dogs in the wild would cook their food as they could never afford the gas bills). There is a wealth of useful information here that has helped lots of members and I can quite honestly say that from personal experience and regardless of any other research you may care to quote it is not 'bumpkin' and is most certainly not 'dodgy advice' as I believe you recently called it (when referring directly to this thread).
> 
> If you do not agree with the advice given by people who have been feeding their pets this way for many years then that is your prerogative, but at least have the respect to not blatantly dismiss their experience and insult them just because of it.


Please post your research I'm always looking to learn.


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## cinnamontoast

Jasper's Bloke said:


> It is possible that she just doesn't do too well on chicken and you may want to try introducing another meat such as lamb or beef. More likely though is that as she has become accustomed to processing the chicken, it is the kibble that is upsetting her. If I mess up and run out of food and have to resort to kibble for a day then I know I am going to regret it the next day.
> 
> Raw food is digested by the body much quicker than processed foods, in a matter of hours rather than days, so feeding the two together can sometimes cause a tummy upset. The reason dogs can tolerate raw meats that would turn a human tum inside out is because they get through the system so quickly that any nasty bacteria simply don't have time to multiply to the point where they will cause a problem. If they are held up in there by much slower digesting commercial kibble then that may be the root of the problem.
> 
> Also think about anything else she has been eating, such as treats or snacks.
> 
> Try some larger joints such as chicken legs (if she is a suitable size) without the kibble for a few days to see how she is and then start to introduce another meat.


Rep for posting such a sensible, straightforward and easy to follow post without trying to blind us with science.


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## Terr

Fed mine BARF for the first time yesterday! Got 2 duck legs for £2.50 at Tesco and gave him one for dinner. He thoroughly enjoyed it! I was a bit worried that he'd get the runs because he's never had raw before but he was just fine today, nice firm stools. Was nice to see him take time to have a meal too as he's a typical lab and gulfs down everything usually. 

Thanks for all the info on BARF!


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## rawdogs

Glad he enjoyed it , you do know he loves you even more now


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## Elmo the Bear

rawdogs said:


> I think the easiest book on raw feeding is TOM LONSDALES WORK WONDERS
> 
> straightforward and simple.:thumbup:


I read "The BARF Diet" by Dr Ian Billingshurst which not only gives you a straightforward diet, it also tells you why and what is most important. Tells you what supplements you can use and what ones you should use.

Great book.

5 out of 7 of ours are on BARF (the other two have a few issues so we left them on what they were on to avoid any issues) and they love it... all seem all round healthier than before (energy levels etc) and certainly no tummy issues.


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## sandymere

cinammontoast said:


> Rep for posting such a sensible, straightforward and easy to follow post without trying to blind us with science.


 Indeed why we wouldn't want science getting in the way of health advice would we! Much better to make it up after all a little diarrhea never killed a dog did it.
Read the first post then the last one on page one below.

gastro enteritis - The Hunting Life


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## adolphbrandy

The information which you have given regarding the raw feeding is very nice and also understanding. It will also help me as well as others for knowing the complete information regarding it. I am very much impressed by this.


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## Elmo the Bear

sandymere said:


> Indeed why we wouldn't want science getting in the way of health advice would we! Much better to make it up after all a little diarrhea never killed a dog did it.
> Read the first post then the last one on page one below.
> 
> gastro enteritis - The Hunting Life


But are you inferring that only naturally fed dogs get gastro? If you feed the appropriate supplements to assist (pro biotics to aid development of the correct bacteria) then you not only avoid the risk but strengthen the dog's immunity. That said, the supplements are necessary when changing from processed to natural food as the processed food has not allowed the dog to develop its natural immunity at the point you change feeding.

EDIT - Just read the link and it doesn't mention what the dogs regular feed was - although hints its not raw as the suggested food was cooked.


----------



## sandymere

Elmo the Bear said:


> But are you inferring that only naturally fed dogs get gastro? If you feed the appropriate supplements to assist (pro biotics to aid development of the correct bacteria) then you not only avoid the risk but strengthen the dog's immunity. That said, the supplements are necessary when changing from processed to natural food as the processed food has not allowed the dog to develop its natural immunity at the point you change feeding.
> 
> EDIT - Just read the link and it doesn't mention what the dogs regular feed was - although hints its not raw as the suggested food was cooked.


Firstly I never said it was raw I was referring to a post where someone with a dog suffering with diarrhea was given health advice by someone who doesn't seem to have a basic understanding of the process involved and the possible outcomes that ongoing diarrhea may bring. The link was to bring home the possible the seriousness of the symptoms. Basically gastro enteritis can kill and inappropriate feeding can increase the risk of infection. So when someone post of ongoing diarrhea then at very least a exploration of presenting symptoms should be asked for and a visit to the vet be brought under consideration but no they just said it's the kibble. Although they may get away with it 90% of the time sooner or later a vet visit will get delayed and a dog die!
Secondly how do pro biotics help? ( little heads up before you answer, have you noticed the TV adverts have suddenly stop making such health claims ) Fibre is important in digestion, in part, being broken down by bacteria in the colon reducing incidence of harmful bacterial overgrowth and aiding the production of fatty acids but fibre should be part of the diet as a norm rather than a supplement.


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## jameserickson80

Thanks for these resources. I've been thinking how would my dog have these kind of diet.


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## Elmo the Bear

sandymere said:


> Firstly I never said it was raw I was referring to a post where someone with a dog suffering with diarrhea was given health advice by someone who doesn't seem to have a basic understanding of the process involved and the possible outcomes that ongoing diarrhea may bring. The link was to bring home the possible the seriousness of the symptoms. Basically gastro enteritis can kill and inappropriate feeding can increase the risk of infection. So when someone post of ongoing diarrhea then at very least a exploration of presenting symptoms should be asked for and a visit to the vet be brought under consideration but no they just said it's the kibble. Although they may get away with it 90% of the time sooner or later a vet visit will get delayed and a dog die!
> Secondly how do pro biotics help? ( little heads up before you answer, have you noticed the TV adverts have suddenly stop making such health claims ) Fibre is important in digestion, in part, being broken down by bacteria in the colon reducing incidence of harmful bacterial overgrowth and aiding the production of fatty acids but fibre should be part of the diet as a norm rather than a supplement.


I wasn't looking to be controversial just wondered why the referral to the other forum was on a thread about raw feeding. The advice I could see on there was predominantly "take your dog to the vet".

Fibre is in the raw diet anyway but the additional pro biotics can help with the maintenance of appropriate bacteria. This doesn't need to be any "posh" pro biotic tablets or anything like that... we use natural yoghurt.


----------



## cinnamontoast

sandymere said:


> Indeed why we wouldnt want science getting in the way of health advice would we! Much better to make it up after all a little diarrhea never killed a dog did it.
> Read the first post then the last one on page one below.
> 
> gastro enteritis - The Hunting Life


It's my opinion that you should stay off this thread. It is for _pro_-raw feeders. Given how well the dogs that are fed raw seem to be doing, I don't feel that we can all be wrong.


----------



## luvmydogs

Hi everyone,
I have a 17 week old puppy and she loves raw beef and lamb. However getting bones down her is proving to be difficult as she doesn't like chicken. Obviously beef bones are too big and hard for her to eat. She will strip lamb and leave the bones.  I'm in Saudi Arabia so can't get the mince with the bone already added. Any ideas?


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## Jasper's Bloke

luvmydogs said:


> Hi everyone,
> I have a 17 week old puppy and she loves raw beef and lamb. However getting bones down her is proving to be difficult as she doesn't like chicken. Obviously beef bones are too big and hard for her to eat. She will strip lamb and leave the bones.  I'm in Saudi Arabia so can't get the mince with the bone already added. Any ideas?


Why not start with what bones that you can get and work from there, if she leaves the lamb ribs they may be too big for her or at her young age it is possible she just hasn't worked out what to do with them yet. Does she chew or lick at the bones or just have nothing to do with them?

It is possible to crush the bones yourself if you don't mind getting physical with them, or at least break them up a little so she can get to the softer, tastier inside. Obviously chicken is best to start with because the bones are small and relatively soft, but if she won't eat chicken then you could try rabbit or game birds if you can get hold of them there. You can also feed whole fish, scaled and cleaned but leave on the head and tail, which will include a good portion of bone. The first one is always a worry and again, it takes a little working out what to do with it, but if she will eat them then they are extremely good for them. I feed about 2 whole good sized sardines a week to my 30kg dog. Another good source of calcium is whole eggs, shell and all. Very few dogs will pass up an egg broken over their food but the shell is where all the calcium is, so mix that in too.

Don't forget that while bone is an essential part of the diet if feeding solely raw, you don't actually need that much of it, only about 10% of her weekly intake. Good luck.


----------



## luvmydogs

She won't eat fish but I'll definitely smash the lamb bones up a bit and see if that helps. She does chew on them but its like once the meat has gone, the meal is finished to her. Hopefully letting her smell the inside of the bones will help her realise there's good stuff in bones too lol. I'll also try her on rabbit, thanks.


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## Liquidsunshine

Hi I'm looking into this, it seems overwhelming, although a cheaper alternative to feeding a top quality kibble. We're hopefully getting A German Shepherd pup in the near future and want a diet that is good for the dog but doesn't hurt our pockets too much. So this seems like a worthy choice. 
I couldn't get into the puppy link so if there is another one could it be posted please?
And also how do you feed this to your dogs? (as in where etc)
The hygiene aspect would be one of my main problems as we have an 18 month old who puts hands in mouth first, asks questions later. So do you just chuck the meat on the floor, feed them outside?
Sorry if all this has been covered previously, but the amount of posts is just overwhelming.
Thanks!

P.S: what about dogs licking etc, after eating raw meat. Should we keep dog away from baby after eating?


----------



## luvmydogs

HA! I cracked it with my pup! If I flash fry the chicken (hot pan, in and out so it doesn't cook the bones) with garlic, she will eat it. :thumbup:


Liquidsunshine said:


> Hi I'm looking into this, it seems overwhelming, although a cheaper alternative to feeding a top quality kibble. We're hopefully getting A German Shepherd pup in the near future and want a diet that is good for the dog but doesn't hurt our pockets too much. So this seems like a worthy choice.
> I couldn't get into the puppy link so if there is another one could it be posted please?
> And also how do you feed this to your dogs? (as in where etc)
> The hygiene aspect would be one of my main problems as we have an 18 month old who puts hands in mouth first, asks questions later. So do you just chuck the meat on the floor, feed them outside?
> Sorry if all this has been covered previously, but the amount of posts is just overwhelming.
> Thanks!
> 
> P.S: what about dogs licking etc, after eating raw meat. Should we keep dog away from baby after eating?


I feed my dogs outside mostly, sometimes in the garage, but if its ridiculously cold I have them in the kitchen (you have to watch them eat) and I have a towel that I use for each dog. They are not allowed to take their meat/bones off that towel. Which puppy link are you after? I would keep the dog from licking the baby until your sure everything has gone and theres no meat around the mouth (highly unlikely! ) but then I'm sure it will be fine. (I'm sure you won't be letting the pup lick the baby anyway)


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## Liquidsunshine

Hi thanks for the reply. Can't remember the exact name but it was something like rawpups or something like that at the beginning of the thread. 
As for the licking, I certainly wouldn't be encouraging it, but you know how sometimes, they get a quick cheeky one in there!!
But that would be my biggest qualm, the benefits seem to be worth the bit of extra effort. Mentioned it to my mum and she said something like "You're not meant to feed raw meat, it's not safe, it'll get a taste for blood and be agressive" So clearly the cannibalism rate in Japan must be through the roof. All that raw fish turning people bloodthirsty. What is the world coming to!


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## Jasper's Bloke

luvmydogs said:


> HA! I cracked it with my pup! If I flash fry the chicken (hot pan, in and out so it doesn't cook the bones) with garlic, she will eat it. :thumbup:


Excellent, giving the chicken a quick blast releases a bit of the flavour and more importantly I suspect, makes it smell a bit more intense, and dogs always taste things with the nose first!



Liquidsunshine said:


> Hi I'm looking into this, it seems overwhelming, although a cheaper alternative to feeding a top quality kibble. We're hopefully getting A German Shepherd pup in the near future and want a diet that is good for the dog but doesn't hurt our pockets too much. So this seems like a worthy choice.
> I couldn't get into the puppy link so if there is another one could it be posted please?
> And also how do you feed this to your dogs? (as in where etc)
> The hygiene aspect would be one of my main problems as we have an 18 month old who puts hands in mouth first, asks questions later. So do you just chuck the meat on the floor, feed them outside?
> Sorry if all this has been covered previously, but the amount of posts is just overwhelming.
> Thanks!
> 
> P.S: what about dogs licking etc, after eating raw meat. Should we keep dog away from baby after eating?


Licking faces is something you really want to discourage from the start regardless of what you feed. Dogs lick far worse things than raw meat.

Some people feed their dogs outside and I know some have trained them to only eat in a specific place, such as on a special mat, but the easiest option for me when I feed whole meat is to feed in his crate. If he has chicken legs for example, he will take them off and stash them around the house and then go and eat them one by one, hardly hygienic! Minced meats just go straight in his bowl and get wolfed straight down but anything 'messy' he has in his crate. This keeps things clean and at the same time reinforces the crate as a good place to be.


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## Jasper's Bloke

Liquidsunshine said:


> Mentioned it to my mum and she said something like "You're not meant to feed raw meat, it's not safe, it'll get a taste for blood and be agressive"


Lol, one of the links in the original posts is to a list of common myths about raw feeding and I am sure that one is in there. My mum told me I shouldn't feed raw meat to my dog because it wasn't 'natural'!


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## Liquidsunshine

I know, when you really thinking about it dog licking isn't very appealing.

With regards to your feeding in the crate, is that with or without bedding and how often do you clean the crate?
Sorry I just want to get this hygiene thing down!


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## Jasper's Bloke

Liquidsunshine said:


> I know, when you really thinking about it dog licking isn't very appealing.
> 
> With regards to your feeding in the crate, is that with or without bedding and how often do you clean the crate?
> Sorry I just want to get this hygiene thing down!


My dog is only in the crate at feeding time or if we have to leave him in the house on his own, so there isn't actually that much bedding in there to begin with and it is easily moved out of the way, but I tend to find that in the crate the food stays in the bowl (well it does for the brief second before it gets chomped), but every dog is different of course. Whipping the bedding out at feeding time should be an easy enough task leaving you with just a plastic or metal surface to disinfect. I use plain stainless steel bowls that go in the dishwasher so they get cleaned every day, nice and hot, as does my microban chopping board (exclusively for doggy stuff) and any knives that I use.

Your hygiene routine should be no different to what you use for preparing raw meat for cooking already, except you don't have to worry about the cooking part!


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## Malmum

Mine are fed in the garden individually - if it's raining they go in the kennel. If for any reason I can't do either of them I feed in the kitchen and wash the floor afterwards.
I think people think there's a blood bath at the end of feeding - they mostly eat over their bowls though. Bones are always given in the garden and any left over peices (not that there's usually any) the magpies have a pick at before I pick them up the next day! Everyone's happy! 

Did you know that a kibble fed dog has more bacteria in it's mouth than a raw fed as bits get stuck on the teeth, where as raw doesn't and the saliva takes away any residue much more quickly. TBH I don't, and never have, let dogs lick my face or hands anyway - much as I love them I don't like the slimey feel of a dogs lick - yuk!


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## Liquidsunshine

Yeah here I am all worried about the raw meat in their mouths! Lol.
No thanks for that, just a little wobble, but on the whole I think it's something I'll definitely give a go, and the cleaning shouldn't be an issue. A kennel outside for feeding might be an investment 
Thanks for the help, have talked to my OH, and he seems to think it's a great idea too, don't think he was too keen on shelling out 50 quid a month for a bag of biscuits!


----------



## hobbs2004

Malmum said:


> Did you know that a kibble fed dog has more bacteria in it's mouth than a raw fed as bits get stuck on the teeth, where as raw doesn't and the saliva takes away any residue much more quickly.


 Ooh, interesting. Can you tell me where you got this from?


----------



## Malmum

hobbs2004 said:


> Ooh, interesting. Can you tell me where you got this from?


Dogs Today magazine - believe it was either November or December issue. Will have a look later to see who wrote it! 

Found this link too - makes sense really when you think how kibble sticks to teeth for a time after feeding.
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/zoonotic.html


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## sandymere

luvmydogs said:


> She won't eat fish but I'll definitely smash the lamb bones up a bit and see if that helps. She does chew on them but its like once the meat has gone, the meal is finished to her. Hopefully letting her smell the inside of the bones will help her realise there's good stuff in bones too lol. I'll also try her on rabbit, thanks.


If it's chewing on the bones then thats the main thing as it helps with oral health, the meat itself will contain plenty of calcium and no doubt she's getting the softer gristle down. As she gets older lamb ribs will get demolished.


----------



## sandymere

Liquidsunshine said:


> Hi I'm looking into this, it seems overwhelming, although a cheaper alternative to feeding a top quality kibble. We're hopefully getting A German Shepherd pup in the near future and want a diet that is good for the dog but doesn't hurt our pockets too much. So this seems like a worthy choice.
> I couldn't get into the puppy link so if there is another one could it be posted please?
> And also how do you feed this to your dogs? (as in where etc)
> The hygiene aspect would be one of my main problems as we have an 18 month old who puts hands in mouth first, asks questions later. So do you just chuck the meat on the floor, feed them outside?
> Sorry if all this has been covered previously, but the amount of posts is just overwhelming.
> Thanks!
> 
> P.S: what about dogs licking etc, after eating raw meat. Should we keep dog away from baby after eating?


http://www.deltasociety.org/Document.Doc?id=679

H:\Canada vets BARF.htm

There would seem to be a higher risk of infection with raw fed dogs and the bacteria can remain for some months in the environment, so unless you sterilise the garden etc it would be difficult to stop the risk of cross contamination plus the dog will be covered in the bacteria around the mouth and the legs if feeding large pieces.
Personally I wouldnt feed pet quality raw feed if there were children in the house. I do feed human quality lamb , pork, beef and rabbit but have no young children.


----------



## sandymere

Malmum said:


> Mine are fed in the garden individually - if it's raining they go in the kennel. If for any reason I can't do either of them I feed in the kitchen and wash the floor afterwards.
> I think people think there's a blood bath at the end of feeding - they mostly eat over their bowls though. Bones are always given in the garden and any left over peices (not that there's usually any) the magpies have a pick at before I pick them up the next day! Everyone's happy!
> 
> Did you know that a kibble fed dog has more bacteria in it's mouth than a raw fed as bits get stuck on the teeth, where as raw doesn't and the saliva takes away any residue much more quickly. TBH I don't, and never have, let dogs lick my face or hands anyway - much as I love them I don't like the slimey feel of a dogs lick - yuk!


Would love to see the study, the link to the raw feeding site is biased, unscientific and genuinely funny, I still can't believe people take that site seriously:lol:


----------



## luvmydogs

My pup is getting more and more fussy with raw food. She's even lost weight because she's refusing it. I'm thinking of changing her over to kibble. :frown:


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## Liquidsunshine

Well me and Oh talked about it, and will give raw feeding a go, either in the crate inside or in an outside kennel or both. As someone else said somewhere else on here, you can easily walk in salmonella or e-coli off the street, so as long as I could control the majority of it, it wouldn't bother me. My daughter will just have to learn to stay away from the dog as it's eating, which as it will be either outside or in the crate shouldn't be hard and also as malmum said, not to encourage licking.


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## cinnamontoast

luvmydogs said:


> My pup is getting more and more fussy with raw food. She's even lost weight because she's refusing it. I'm thinking of changing her over to kibble. :frown:


My big dog started refusing, so I put him on Orijen, which he then started refusing! He now has soaked Orijen with bits of tripe (which he loves) mixed in and wolfs it down. I tried other raw stuff yesterday with him and he wolfed it down-nutty dog! I can now vary him and to me, it's a handy way to monitor his weight, too.

The puppies eat anything they are given as we vary their food a lot and started them very young.


----------



## luvmydogs

cinammontoast said:


> My big dog started refusing, so I put him on Orijen, which he then started refusing! He now has soaked Orijen with bits of tripe (which he loves) mixed in and wolfs it down. I tried other raw stuff yesterday with him and he wolfed it down-nutty dog! I can now vary him and to me, it's a handy way to monitor his weight, too.


Sounds like she is the same! I gave her some kibble today (the stuff the breeder sent with her) and she ate it. There was a lamb steak sat in her other bowl. Then a couple of hours later she ate the lamb! :confused1: She wouldn't eat lamb tripe the other day, I have some beef tripe to try her on. 


cinammontoast said:


> The puppies eat anything they are given as we vary their food a lot and started them very young.


Same as mine, I do exactly the same. :thumbsup:


----------



## Jasper's Bloke

sandymere said:


> http://www.deltasociety.org/Document.Doc?id=679
> 
> H:\Canada vets BARF.htm
> 
> There would seem to be a higher risk of infection with raw fed dogs and the bacteria can remain for some months in the environment, so unless you sterilise the garden etc it would be difficult to stop the risk of cross contamination plus the dog will be covered in the bacteria around the mouth and the legs if feeding large pieces.
> Personally I wouldnt feed pet quality raw feed if there were children in the house. I do feed human quality lamb , pork, beef and rabbit but have no young children.


Interesting study, but yet again it is out of context and has one pretty serious omission. The report concludes that dogs that consume raw meat have a greater chance of having salmonella bacteria in their fecal matter than dogs fed on processed kibble, and as a result should not be allowed into contact with people with lower levels of immunity, such as children (although the study actual relates to PAT dogs that visit hospitals and care homes etc). OK, no big surprises there, raw meat usually contains salmonella which is why it is cooked for human consumption, dogs are less susceptible to the infection so the bacteria passes through the system and ends up in a pile on the ground.

Where this study falls down is that it does not even consider how that bacteria could subsequently infect a human, and in fact, unless they come into direct physical contact with it and then allow it to enter their digestive system, it can't. In other words, the only way you can get a salmonella infection from a raw fed dog is to either pick up it's poop and fail to sterilise your hands, therefore eventually transferring the bacteria to your own mouth, or if you are in a real hurry to get sick, by eating dog s#!t and to be frank, if you do that then a salmonella infection really is the least of your medical worries.

I also cannot find any reference in the study you mention to dogs being covered in the bacteria around the mouth and legs and in fact, this wasn't even part of the study. The dogs were tested for MRSA via nasal swabs but this is nothing whatsoever to do with what they were or were not being fed. MRSA is spread by physical contact and can be carried on any surface, including skin and clothing and for anything from weeks to years. MRSA infections can enter the body through the respiratory system but it is most commonly contracted through an existing wound.



sandymere said:


> Would love to see the study, the link to the raw feeding site is biased, unscientific and genuinely funny, I still can't believe people take that site seriously:lol:


Now that's just rude.



Liquidsunshine said:


> Well me and Oh talked about it, and will give raw feeding a go, either in the crate inside or in an outside kennel or both. As someone else said somewhere else on here, you can easily walk in salmonella or e-coli off the street, so as long as I could control the majority of it, it wouldn't bother me. My daughter will just have to learn to stay away from the dog as it's eating, which as it will be either outside or in the crate shouldn't be hard and also as malmum said, not to encourage licking.


The fact is that bacteria are everywhere and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Simple basic hygiene however will prevent such bacteria from reaching levels that can cause illness. The same principles apply to feeding dogs (regardless of what you feed them) as they do to feeding your children. As long as you are sensible you will be fine.


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## Sparkle

There's more bacteria on a toilet than in some raw meat!! I feed mine on a towel each and wash them at 90 degrees

I have a child.. She is all for raw feeding at 10 years old helps me clear up and everything

Rather feed my dog raw than euthanised pets which have been found in some pet foods along with mercury and lead!! 

Handling raw meat for animals or humans is no different I chop their meat up on the same meat chopping board I do mine I use an antibacterial spray on the kitchen surfaces anyway and mop my floors with hibbiscrub 

We've had no problems since raw feeding which we have been doing for over a year!


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## sandymere

Sparkle said:


> There's more bacteria on a toilet than in some raw meat!! I feed mine on a towel each and wash them at 90 degrees
> 
> I have a child.. She is all for raw feeding at 10 years old helps me clear up and everything
> 
> Rather feed my dog raw than euthanised pets which have been found in some pet foods along with mercury and lead!!
> 
> Handling raw meat for animals or humans is no different I chop their meat up on the same meat chopping board I do mine I use an antibacterial spray on the kitchen surfaces anyway and mop my floors with hibbiscrub
> 
> We've had no problems since raw feeding which we have been doing for over a year!


When has a pet etc been found in food in the UK? Lordy.


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## MarKalAm

Wipe the dogs mouth, legs, paws with an antibacterial wipe after feeding. It's a tricky problem to solve, I know, but it's worked for me for the last 5 years.

As for MRSA, whatttt? Raw feeding is going to give us MRSA now? Lol Better stop going to supermarkets too then. Besides I work in a hospital, I've prob already got it, best not cuddle the dogs in case_ I_ infect _them_


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## hobbs2004

MarKalAm said:


> Wipe the dogs mouth, legs, paws with an antibacterial wipe after feeding. It's a tricky problem to solve, I know, but it's worked for me for the last 5 years.
> 
> As for MRSA, whatttt? Raw feeding is going to give us MRSA now? Lol Better stop going to supermarkets too then. Besides I work in a hospital, I've prob already got it, best not cuddle the dogs in case_ I_ infect _them_


Oh my, yes, I have heard that one from before. This argument is often used in the US to argue against raw fed dogs being used as "visiting" dogs, isn't it?

However, I think there was a study that was trying to highlight the problem of all sorts of bacterial infections in raw fed vs kibbled fed dogs. And while significantly more raw fed dogs shed more ecoli and salmonella than kibble fed dogs (as we already know is the case from other studies), there was a higher proportion of kibble fed than raw fed dogs that shed MRSA.


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## Sparkle

sandymere said:


> When has a pet etc been found in food in the UK? Lordy.


Do some research find out what meat meal actually is!! I'm not saying in all brands but definately some!!

First hand my friends cat was PTS in November she was fed (yuck) whiskers for her entire 19 year life.. She weighed about 15lb maybe... Took 3 attempts to PTS because she had a resistance to the drug how else would she have a resistance???

I've never fed pet food but I assume pedigree/whiskers/wagg etc whatever is available both here and the US has the same ingredients!!

I personally freeze all my meat and bones for a minimum of a week before they are fed it as my dogs eat such a small amount!!

I thought this was a PRO raw thread it appears some people are trying to start debates about it!! I wouldn't feed dry food or wet food (other than ziwi or other dehydrated raws) to my dogs the benefits of a raw diet far weigh out the bacteria you keep chatting about!! Bit of antibacterial spray in your kitchen and onthe floors never hurt anyone!!

And as a mother I'd rather my daughter was in contact with raw meat (she's eats sushi omg is she gonna die ) than some nasty stinky full of crap dry food!


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## sandymere

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Interesting study, but yet again it is out of context and has one pretty serious omission. The report concludes that dogs that consume raw meat have a greater chance of having salmonella bacteria in their fecal matter than dogs fed on processed kibble, and as a result should not be allowed into contact with people with lower levels of immunity, such as children (although the study actual relates to PAT dogs that visit hospitals and care homes etc). OK, no big surprises there, raw meat usually contains salmonella which is why it is cooked for human consumption, dogs are less susceptible to the infection so the bacteria passes through the system and ends up in a pile on the ground.
> 
> Where this study falls down is that it does not even consider how that bacteria could subsequently infect a human, and in fact, unless they come into direct physical contact with it and then allow it to enter their digestive system, it can't. In other words, the only way you can get a salmonella infection from a raw fed dog is to either pick up it's poop and fail to sterilise your hands, therefore eventually transferring the bacteria to your own mouth, or if you are in a real hurry to get sick, by eating dog s#!t and to be frank, if you do that then a salmonella infection really is the least of your medical worries.
> 
> I also cannot find any reference in the study you mention to dogs being covered in the bacteria around the mouth and legs and in fact, this wasn't even part of the study. The dogs were tested for MRSA via nasal swabs but this is nothing whatsoever to do with what they were or were not being fed. MRSA is spread by physical contact and can be carried on any surface, including skin and clothing and for anything from weeks to years. MRSA infections can enter the body through the respiratory system but it is most commonly contracted through an existing wound.
> 
> Now that's just rude.
> 
> The fact is that bacteria are everywhere and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Simple basic hygiene however will prevent such bacteria from reaching levels that can cause illness. The same principles apply to feeding dogs (regardless of what you feed them) as they do to feeding your children. As long as you are sensible you will be fine.


1, The link highlights the increased risk of bacterial infection with raw fed dogs so is relevant and in context.
2, Children have a lower immunity than adult especially very young ones.
3, Bacteria are transferred by contact to dog and the environment.
3, Dogs are infected if they have the bacteria, that what infected means, they may not be overtly symptomatic but are still very much infected.
4, Dogs get meat residue around their mouths and front legs etc when eating bones or larger pieces of meat, as anyone who has experience would know, children cuddle dogs its doesn't take much imagination really. 
This is all very basic biology really.

Bacteria are every where but there is a big difference between bacteria and the bacterial challenge of say salmonella is one that would seriously risk the health of a young child.
I feel highlighting the risks as important as then people can make an informed choice.


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## sandymere

hobbs2004 said:


> Oh my, yes, I have heard that one from before. This argument is often used in the US to argue against raw fed dogs being used as "visiting" dogs, isn't it?
> 
> However, I think there was a study that was trying to highlight the problem of all sorts of bacterial infections in raw fed vs kibbled fed dogs. And while significantly more raw fed dogs shed more ecoli and salmonella than kibble fed dogs (as we already know is the case from other studies), there was a higher proportion of kibble fed than raw fed dogs that shed MRSA.


Can you link to the research that shows one has more MRSA than another? Its an area Im always interested to learn more about.


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## hobbs2004

sandymere said:


> Can you link to the research that shows one has more MRSA than another? Its an area Im always interested to learn more about.


Google: Therapy dogs and raw diets  a palatable combination? That will give you a link to a PPT of that data.


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## luvmydogs

Is it ok if my pup's only source of bone is lamb?


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## Sparkle

luvmydogs said:


> Is it ok if my pup's only source of bone is lamb?


Yup  I mainly stick to chicken with the odd pork or lamb rib as the chicken is softer therefore easier for them to chew (teeny mouths)


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## Malmum

I think it all comes down to *personal hygiene*. I don't eat my dogs poop, play with it, roll in it and ALWAYS wash my hands, utensils and surfaces thoroughly when preparing it and in over six years neither me or any family member have been infected by what I feed my dogs, contact with humans yes but not from my dogs.
The outside environment is swarming with bacteria, door handles, shopping trolly handles, coins and many other things can carry bacteria, especially MRSA - so I certainly don't worry about my dogs infecting me.
As a hospital worker I know just how germ ridden us humans can be! 

If you're thinking of raw feeding, don't let this kind of scare mongering put you off - after all butchers handle raw meat every single day and how often do you go to the butchers and find it closed due to illness? You just have to use some common sense that's all!


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## nykea

Hello, it took me ages to go through the topic, but finally I'm posting something myself! My dog was a bit funny with digestion, despite trying really good feeds, like Orijen. And actually he didn't want to eat them to start with. Last August he got pretty bad, with bloody diarrhoea and vomiting. Spent hundreds of ££ the vets, he got extended antibiotic treatment (thanks to which we have fungus in beard now, that I can't get rid off!!) and he was on cooked. But because he's a big boy, peeling a kg of meat a day, plus cooking rice and veg was a pain in the neck. So first I started him on Wainwrights wet food and Nature's prize (or whatever that is, frozen nuggets from PAH) and 2-3 weeks ago I started preparing food for him myself. At the moment I'm very pleased, he's interested in his food and for the first time in his life he's got firm poos. But I have a few questions. 
As an inexperienced "cook" I bought him quite a lot of hard beef bones. Obviously he wasn't able to eat them all, although he's a big boy, so I was giving him quite a lot of minced meat. From what everyone is saying excess of meat should cause his poos to go dark and softish. He's still pooing dry and bright yellow poos. (They were usually yellow, even when he was on dry food, just then it was runs  He got a bit better after giving him wet food, they went brown, but now it's back to yellow). Also, he's not constipated, but he makes a few tiny little bobs and then runs of, as if it was unpleasant (haemorrhoids?) 
The second question, for two days he had runny eye, with green mucus. I was wiping it with Optrex and camomile tea, now it's getting better but could it be because of the food? I can't see anything in the eye  And it's only one eye.
And third question, I order my meat from DAF, I'm very pleased with their service, very helpful people, but I ordered lamb ribs, and they are... pretty meat-less. There's bones ok, but deffinitely not 50:50 with meat. Is this normal? When I go for lamb rib cage, should I expect something like that 
http://www.asia.ru/images/target/photo/50464130/Lamb_Party_Rib.jpg
or rather just bones? (that's what I got)

Also, how dangerous is feeding him frozen meat? He likes his chicken in any form, but when I try to give him sth else, like for example duck, he will sniff it and leave it. And frozen it's like the biggest treat! 

My dog gets at the moment chicken (mince or carcasses), beef bones, introducing duck (necks). I know it's not very varied, but we're starting off from chicken which he knows, and likes. He likes beef as well, but the bones I have at the moment are too big, he chews the meat and sides off and leaves the body of the bone. I also give him vegetables and fruits and extras, rapeseed oil, honey, cottage cheese, yoghurt, tried tune but not very interested  As offal he gets tripe at the moment which he obviously loves and knows very well, we also used baked liver as treats. Now going to the shop, think I'll get some kidneys, or whatever the market stocks!

I will be grateful for any advice!!

Edit: I also give him some garlic and fenugreek tablets, glucosmine and chondroitine pills, and tree bark powder, which should support his digestion (well, not glucosamine, it's obviously for his joints!!  )


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## FEJA JUODAS

"Some feed veggies, some feed fruit, some feed table scraps...in moderation, most fruit and veg will not harm your dog - but they are not a NECESSARY part of the diet, and there is currently no known nutritional requirement for them, as everything can be found within the raw meat/bones/offal etc components."

very interesting read this thread. i will save it and review ...read some links already...and i add...when i read the CONTENT of the DRY DOG FOOD packets...i see....MEAT CONTENT only 20 PERCENT ! the rest ? is VEGETABLE OR CEREAL !


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## Jasper's Bloke

Nykea - Sounds like he may be getting too much bone, apart from what he gets in things like chicken wings or legs he should only eat about 10% of his weekly intake in the form of raw bones. For my 30kg dog, this means a boney meal only about twice a week.

Bone does make firmer stools, but if you go too far they can become too firm and difficult to pass, much like you describe. The excess calcium does also make the stool lighter in colour, even to the point of making it almost white, along with a very dry, chalky texture. On the other hand, offal can often loosen stools and the usual advice is to balance weekly bone intake with weekly offal intake. You don't mention any liver or other offal in your diet so maybe that should be the next thing for you to introduce. 

As for feeding frozen, health wise it is not a problem, but I think dogs enjoy it more because they simply enjoy the extra chewing involved. The reason we are unable to eat frozen food (apart from the fact we do not have the teeth or jaw power to do it) is that we need to cook our food in order to kill off any harmful bacteria. Dogs are far less susceptible to these bacteria because their digestive system is much shorter and works far more quickly than our own, so any bacteria present in the food does not have time to multiply to levels that can cause illness. Having said that, they are not immune to such things so feeding frozen food should not be the norm, but the odd meal here and there shouldn't give you any problems.


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## nykea

Hm, the thing is that I'm not giving him that many bony meals, only yesterday we started on carcass, previously it was only mince with not very edible beef bones, which I was largely throwing away. But the problem might be in mince, do you know if Prize Choice is meat only or meat plus bones? If the latter, I have the answer to my question :/

As for offal, at the moment we were just on tripe, plus liver as treats, but I just spent 2 hours cutting and dividing into portions ox and lamb liver, heart and kidneys, so now we'll gradually introduce these as well. I wonder how tolerant is he going to be with raw liver if he was perfectly fine with cooked? And do I have to be as careful with heart as with liver? 

I went bravely with the duck necks, instead of starting of with tiny bits I gave him two, and of course there was a bit of revoultion, but today he got one, and his poos are actually going browner now and are not so dry!! So dinner for tonight, 2 chicken carcasses, one duck neck, apple, pear, rapeseed oil and a little ox liver (left over from packing, should be perfect for introduction). Might throw in a handful of minced tripe.


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## nykea

We have a problem with fish tho. Tried tuna and some white fish I got from fishmongers for free (cut offs, nice white flesh, no skin, no bones, considered eating myself!! and should've, cause my Prince sniffed it and walked away :/ ). He's not interested in it all. I remember that when I had poached salmon he was mildly interested, but if I start poaching salmon for him, I think my family will put me away... 
At the moment I'm trying to balance the Omega oils with rapeseed oil and linseed. I make jelly of it, as I don't have a grinder :/


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## Jasper's Bloke

As far as I am aware Prize Choice minces do contain ground bone, it may be down to the specific variety though so check the ingredients on the pack. The chicken carcasses you have been feeding are also boney meals, as are most necks. There is certainly a lot more than 10% bone in a chicken carcass, so if you are giving that daily it is way too much.

I give chicken joints (legs and thighs) as about a third of a normal days food and with the occasional portion of ribs or neck once a week this seems to be enough bone for us. I was feeding more chicken joints but had the same problem as you, it was too just much bone, so his stools were getting too firm and were obviously causing discomfort. Switched the balance to more meat (tripe in my case) and less bone and now he's fine.

As far as fish goes then I suppose some dogs just don't like it, but instead of white fish try something oily instead. My dog has a whole mackerel when I can get them, but if not I keep a pack of whole sardines in the freezer for him and he gets one or two a week. (£1.99 for 2kg, frozen whole sardines from Tesco).

Feeding raw is very much a case of trial and error, every dog is an individual and they all have different tastes and different tolerances. The beauty of it though is that you can tailor what you feed daily and see the results in a relatively short space of time, usually days. When you compare that to doing the same thing with commercial kibbles where it can take weeks to see the effect of any changes, the benefits are obvious.


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## nykea

As I said before, we just started off on the carcass and necks. I guess the mince already had quite a lot of bones. But anyway, I'm getting confused now, somewhere in this topic I thought I read that the proportion meat:bone should be about 50:50? And that carcass and wings have the perfect proportion? To be honest if it's not the case I might have a problem, cause my boy doesn't want to touch plain meat.
Also, do you treat tripe as meat? I thought it's more like offal?
At the moment I'm trying to keep such proportions for my russian black terrier(1,5kg daily):
0.9kg meat& bones, 0.3kg fruit&veg, 0.15kg offal, 0.15kg extras (eggs, linseed, honey, cottage cheese etc.)


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## nykea

Went to the first posts again, and now I see the proportions you mentioned, and the fact that tripe is treated as meat. Perhaps my percentages are slightly different because I feed fruit and veg as well. I started looking for some references regarding the meat:bone ratio and found this forum:
Raw Prey Model meat/organ/bone proportions - Raw Food Diet Forum

Btw, we went on carcass, necks etc, proper meat not the mince from the shop and his poos are already better


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## cinnamontoast

Glad it's working for you.

Can I just ask why you're feeding fruit and veg?


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## Malmum

Tom Lonsdales book - Work Wonders, feed raw meaty bones is excellent. It's very easy to understand and cheap to buy too. This is the book that I first started reading when I started on barf.
Work Wonders: Feed Your Dog Raw Meaty Bones: Amazon.co.uk: Tom Lonsdale: Books

Incidentally, have you had him checked by the vet regarding his yellow poo? I'd get his bloods checked to rule out any liver complaint. I know another forum member whose dog has had pancreatitis and liver deficiency that had yellow poo. Just a thought.


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## nykea

We've been to vets loads of times before, he had his poo tested, had blood work done as well. I thought it was pancreatitis, but when I came off the dry food he was much better, actually he hasn't had diarrhoea since then, but he was still vomitting from time to time, until I went totally raw (he was on wainwright's pouches). At the moment he is getting tree bark and garlic&fenugreek tablets, and to be honest I'm pretty sure that it's rather some infectious problem, as he was getting better after antibiotics. Despite my request (I know I was too soft) the vet didn't do the TLI test (for pancreatitis), she said that it would be visible on normal blood chemistry we did, and it came back clear. I planned on doing that anyway, but because he got better now, I'm planning on doing a full blood chemistry including TLI in the end of March, which will be 2 months after we started Barf-ing. Shoudl tell me not only if he's got a problem, but also how well I'm doing with our diet.

I feed fruit&veg because I do believe that our dogs are more omnivorous than carnivorous. They have changed over the years. Also, wild dogs/wolves feed mainly on game, which has the ability to eat all kinds of herbs/veg/fruits. Having worked on a duck farm I know, that the diet of our commercial animals is nowhere near the diversity of wild herbivores. And that goes for the free-range and organic products as well. Unfortunately, these two groups started off beautifully, with small farmers having few animals in their back yard. Now it's being taken over by large companies, and although there are some requirements they have to fulfil to classify the products as free-range or organic, it's still mass production with not much difference to animals (we had free-range birds). So because I'm not able to afford feeding him venison all the time I want to provide that with fruit and veg. IMO, you can't really harm the dog giving him fruit or veg (there are few exceptions! e.g. sultanas), as in the worst case they will just go through.
Also, I believe (although I never studied it that deeply), that in the end the majority of the diet in case of wild dogs/wolves is the small prey, which is eaten whole. From what I know the big hunt happens once in few days (or weeks!!) and in the meantime they just wander around picking up small mammals and birds, whatever they can find. Note here, this is my personal opinion based on few scientific papers and documentary movies :thumbup:

Besides (probably most important!!) this was the type of diet recommended to me by a breeder (not mine unfortunately), whom I know and trust, and I know she's been feeding her dogs on that diet for quite a while and they are all quite happy 
At the moment I'm trying to put a little meat on my dog, so the values I gave before are for a 50kg adult male. I guess that it doesn't really make that much difference, 300g is really not that much, small apple and two medium carrots maybe? 
I'm new in raw feeding so I definitely am wrong in many things that I do, but I believe that with this diet we should all suit our dogs. At the moment we had problems with dry poo, so I think that veg would rather help in this case. My problems show that if you want to go raw, go all the way, and throw away pre-made minces, as you may not know what's inside :/


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## Sparkle

Anyone feed lung??? Butcher said they can get me some I just need to say whose lungs I'm after?? If so what animal do you recommend? I know they count as meat am sadly excited about it


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## Alex James

Do not feed raw and kibble in the same meal. They digest at different rates and you do not want the raw meat slowed down by the kibble and growing bacteria in the intestines.


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## hobbs2004

Sparkle said:


> Anyone feed lung??? Butcher said they can get me some I just need to say whose lungs I'm after?? If so what animal do you recommend? I know they count as meat am sadly excited about it


I occasionally feed lung - pig's lung. It is high in iron, which is good if you feed well-bled meat. I get enough to make up about 40% of my 5% other offal ratio if that makes sense. It also gives some bulk and additional chewiness to the food.

Edit - I just saw your classification. Lung are offal in my book.


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## Sparkle

hobbs2004 said:


> I occasionally feed lung - pig's lung. It is high in iron, which is good if you feed well-bled meat. I get enough to make up about 40% of my 5% other offal ratio if that makes sense. It also gives some bulk and additional chewiness to the food.
> 
> Edit - I just saw your classification. Lung are offal in my book.


It's not secreting though?? Everywhere I've looked spoken to said treat it as meat! Like heart equals a muscle meat! Strange


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## cinnamontoast

Sparkle said:


> Anyone feed lung??? Butcher said they can get me some I just need to say whose lungs I'm after?? If so what animal do you recommend? I know they count as meat am sadly excited about it


Pig: I naively said cow and the butcher was horrified: he asked if I realised what size they were! I quickly downsized to pig! I have to say, the butchering thereof was not pretty.



Alex James said:


> Do not feed raw and kibble in the same meal. They digest at different rates and you do not want the raw meat slowed down by the kibble and growing bacteria in the intestines.


Now I keep hearing that this is a myth-wish I could remember the 'expert' explanation about why it's actually fine to feed both in one meal. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence I keep hearing about how it's perfectly safe and to be fair, I do give a handful of tripe with the Orijen for Brig's kibble days.


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## Sparkle

Hahaha I have beef liver and I have chihuahuas!!!! I have enough liver to last about 5 years in myfreezer I keep handing it out to people lol I got like 1kg for £1.99 at the halal shop I didn't realise how much a kilo of liver physically was as the girls obviously get like a tiny chunk a week! They seem to prefer beef liver to lamb though!!

I'll remember to ask for it to be chopped into 1oz cubes haha


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## cinnamontoast

I bought beef liver as it was on offer this week: I had no idea how much I had til I was bagging it up-ridiculous! It'll last forever!


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## hobbs2004

Sparkle said:


> It's not secreting though?? Everywhere I've looked spoken to said treat it as meat! Like heart equals a muscle meat! Strange


I don't think an organ has to be "secreting" in order to be counted as offal in raw feeding. Every single thing I have read, the barf forum I am on and the calculator I have treat lung as an offal. Same as spleen, kidney, brain etc.

I think my worry would be to overfeed on the likes of iron if we were to treat it as a meat. 50% of my 5% offal proportion fed as pig lung gives my food roughly enough iron to satisfy the needs of my cats. Roughly, because those calculators are, of course, only a guide and only ever as good as the databases that they are based on.

Certainly for cats, I believe that the reason we treat heart as a muscle meat and not an offal (though it only makes up a tiny part of a prey), is that it is chockerblock full of taurine, which is an essential amino acid for cats. I am sure there are other explanations but this one makes sense to me.


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## doggydoo

I really need some advice as I am so confused! I have only just had my beautiful 8week border terrier pup for 3 days and she had been fed on the raw food diet. I found it a bit difficult to get my head around it in the 2 weeks before I picked her up and thought I just couldn't do it as it would be too difficult and my parents will be taking care of her sometimes. However after much research on the internet I thought it did seem like the best way to look after and feed your dog.
Well naturally shes picked a bit at her food being in a new home but she has eaten a bit of chicken carcass and a little goats yogurt and she seems to like the nature diet that my breeder gave to me so at least she is eating.
My problem is today I took her for her first vaccination to vet and I had a 45minute lecture about not doing the raw diet, I felt like a child! Even though I tried to explain that I wanted to give it a go I was told she could EASILY die of salmonella,E coli, or a chicken bone stuck in her stomach at which he showed me an xray of a cats stomach with a chicken bone in. He went on and on that feeding beef mince wasn't natural and tha t she could have problems later as she wouldn't get enough calcium etc etc. 
When I first arrived the vet was very loving to my pup cuddling her etc but his whole tune changed when I spoke about the diet. He even started looking on the internet at the risks to show me (he didn't find much). It was all about kibble, and I've read worst things about that!. Apparentley I'm the only person he knows that does the diet.
I got in my car and cried I felt so stupid and now I don't know what to do.


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## Jasper's Bloke

doggydoo said:


> I really need some advice as I am so confused! I have only just had my beautiful 8week border terrier pup for 3 days and she had been fed on the raw food diet. I found it a bit difficult to get my head around it in the 2 weeks before I picked her up and thought I just couldn't do it as it would be too difficult and my parents will be taking care of her sometimes. However after much research on the internet I thought it did seem like the best way to look after and feed your dog.
> Well naturally shes picked a bit at her food being in a new home but she has eaten a bit of chicken carcass and a little goats yogurt and she seems to like the nature diet that my breeder gave to me so at least she is eating.
> My problem is today I took her for her first vaccination to vet and I had a 45minute lecture about not doing the raw diet, I felt like a child! Even though I tried to explain that I wanted to give it a go I was told she could EASILY die of salmonella,E coli, or a chicken bone stuck in her stomach at which he showed me an xray of a cats stomach with a chicken bone in. He went on and on that feeding beef mince wasn't natural and tha t she could have problems later as she wouldn't get enough calcium etc etc.
> When I first arrived the vet was very loving to my pup cuddling her etc but his whole tune changed when I spoke about the diet. He even started looking on the internet at the risks to show me (he didn't find much). It was all about kibble, and I've read worst things about that!. Apparentley I'm the only person he knows that does the diet.
> I got in my car and cried I felt so stupid and now I don't know what to do.


Easy. Find another vet.


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## Blondie

The chicken bone on the cats stomach could have been a cooked one, and in my experience it probably was!!

Raw feeders across the UK and further are growing by the day, please remember Vets recieve next to no training in Canine Nutrition and any they have gotten, is sponsored by the big complete manufacturers, like Hills Science Plan etc. Vets sell it coz they get commission, pure and simple!

I agree - its easy - find another vet!


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## hobbs2004

Ceearott said:


> The chicken bone on the cats stomach could have been a cooked one, and *in my experience it probably was*!!
> 
> Raw feeders across the UK and further are growing by the day, please remember Vets recieve next to no training in Canine Nutrition and any they have gotten, is sponsored by the big complete manufacturers, like Hills Science Plan etc. Vets sell it coz they get commission, pure and simple!
> 
> I agree - its easy - find another vet!


In your experience?

I think any conscientious raw feeder is aware of potential risks - and feeding bones is not without risk. Who really knows what the incidence of those obstructions or internal damage really is. Vets and animal hospitals only see the instances when things go catastrophically wrong; but I do agree they don't see the number of animals who get fed bones daily or weekly without any problems.

Also, there are some really dodgy raw feeding practices around (just stick around here for a while...), so vets again are the ones picking up the pieces and forming bad opinions about this way of feeding.

However, not all are. I have one who is pro raw and I sought him out because of this.

To the OP, I also would suggest you seek out a new vet. If there is some choice around the part of the country where you are then perhaps seek on out that is if not pro raw feeding then perhaps raw tolerant.

If no such vet exists round your part then I personally would keep quiet about your dog's diet. Otherwise they might jump to conclusions and any future problems might be put down to the way you feed. People can be a bit blinkered like that...


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## Blondie

I agree that feeding raw is not without its risks, I just consider the risks to my dogs health to be lower than if I fed them other diets. 

I also know many people are starting to feed raw without giving themselves a basic canine nutrition/digestive system education, which is wrong, as raw feeding is not easy at the beginning, there is lots to learn, which I think is what can put a lot of people off - far better to feed complete than to make a complete hash of feeding raw, lol!!

In my experience - I have consulted with many vets about dogs and 'stuck' bones and my friend has collected much evidence including x-rays of these incidents and statements from vets, most of the bones (but I do admit, not all!) were cooked bones. 

I am glad you have a pro-raw diet, after looking for a few years now, I finally found one too!


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## Mum2Heidi

I would look at food and health as separate issues. 
Is your vet a qualified nutritionist? I doubt it

The way I see it, is to look back to nature and how your dog would survive naturally. I know they have evolved to eat different things but in most cases they cope with rather than thrive on the alternatives.

Just my opinion and as much as I think raw is the best way. I dont do it, so if your dog has already had that great start, I would definately keep it up.

If you are happy with your vet for medical issues, then just keep the way you feed to yourself. Mine isnt vaccinated as regularly as they would like but I just dont mention it. At the end of the day, they are our dogs and it's our decision.:thumbup:

Good luck and dont let it get you down


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## Jasper's Bloke

doggydoo said:


> I really need some advice as I am so confused! I have only just had my beautiful 8week border terrier pup for 3 days and she had been fed on the raw food diet. I found it a bit difficult to get my head around it in the 2 weeks before I picked her up and thought I just couldn't do it as it would be too difficult and my parents will be taking care of her sometimes. However after much research on the internet I thought it did seem like the best way to look after and feed your dog.
> Well naturally shes picked a bit at her food being in a new home but she has eaten a bit of chicken carcass and a little goats yogurt and she seems to like the nature diet that my breeder gave to me so at least she is eating.
> My problem is today I took her for her first vaccination to vet and I had a 45minute lecture about not doing the raw diet, I felt like a child! Even though I tried to explain that I wanted to give it a go I was told she could EASILY die of salmonella,E coli, or a chicken bone stuck in her stomach at which he showed me an xray of a cats stomach with a chicken bone in. He went on and on that feeding beef mince wasn't natural and tha t she could have problems later as she wouldn't get enough calcium etc etc.
> When I first arrived the vet was very loving to my pup cuddling her etc but his whole tune changed when I spoke about the diet. He even started looking on the internet at the risks to show me (he didn't find much). It was all about kibble, and I've read worst things about that!. Apparentley I'm the only person he knows that does the diet.
> I got in my car and cried I felt so stupid and now I don't know what to do.





Jasper's Bloke said:


> Easy. Find another vet.


I apologise for my earlier comment, I did not intend for it to be flippant or dismissive in any way, but I was otherwise engaged at the time.

Absolutely you should find another vet and unless you are out in the middle of nowhere, you should have a few to choose from within a reasonable distance. The reason I say this is because throughout your post you do not seem convinced by what your vet said in any way, shape or form. Whatever the reason for that you should be allowed to make up your own mind and have the facts presented to you without prejudice, especially by a medical professional who is supposed to be without bias.

Whenever you ask anyone for advice then you have to consider their motives for giving it. With vets, their motive should always be to provide what is best for an animal however, this is not always the case and you have to remember that they are businessmen first, and vets second. The main reason that people choose to feed a raw diet is because of the health benefits, and the sad truth of the matter is that healthy pets are not good for a vets profits. My dog has been to the vet once in the last two years and that was only due to an accident rather than an illness.

Personally I would have rejected his claims simply due to the fact that I do not like to be preached to (45 minutes? I would have been charging HIM for my time!), but being more objective I think you should take into account that vets are not the best authority on canine nutrition and do your own research.

Feeding raw is not without risk, both to you and to your pet, but then neither is feeding commercial foods, so all you can do is to take simple, basic precautions to minimise that risk. If your vet has seen cases where raw food has caused a problem then I wonder how many he has seen caused by commercial foods, such as cancers, organ diseases and even obesity. Once you have considered the risk you have to also consider the benefits, and the majority of evidence you will find suggests that raw feeding is quite simply the healthiest option there is.


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## Jonesey

Biscuit went through an another two day fast last week. Basically she'd refuse her food, I'd get all worried and start adding things to it or throwing it out for fresh and my OH said I'm creating a monster. <-it's been going on for a while now and she's been getting pickier all the time. He said wait her out or take her off the raw. So I waited and now she's eating tons and wanting more the last three days. She's 9mths now and about 24lbs last time weighed.

So my question is - can she get overweight on raw? I pretty much feed her when she's hungry, which is at predictable times and always twice a day, but three and five times the last few days. Her diet is low carb and the carbs are from blueberries, raw sweet potatoes and carrots. That makes up about 20% of her food, the rest is minced chicken with bone and organs or minced rabbit with bone and organs and botanicals. Plus a little cooked beef/veal liver ground up and sprinkled on top. Forgot to say I also add herring oil and sea kelp to her raw mixes. Treats are freeze dried liver, chicken and grain free toy breed puppy kibble (I can buy sample bags of high quality kibble at a ridiculously low price). She doesn't get a ton of treats either, they're quite small to begin with and I break up the liver and chicken into little bits.

It seems I must always worry about something.... And I am wondering if it's much like us humans, ie: the more junk food, easy carbs you eat the more you want and the more that is stored as fat OR eat a natural diet low in refined carbs and you will not tend to over eat or become overweight.


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## doggydoo

Thank you everyone for replying to my earlier post, I've had a pretty miserable day. I chose the vet on a recommendation and convenience but my husband has gone crazy at the way I was spoken to so he thinks once she has had her 2nd vaccination we will find another vet. How do you find one thats tolerant of the raw diet, I live in a smallish town and only know of one other vet that has a huge Hills science diet add in the window so I think it may be similar there. 
I am finding it very stressful at the moment looking after my active pup and worrying about the diet as I had never even heard of the barf/raw diet before getting my pup. I hate the mess of the chicken as she picks it up and takes it to her bed(which I don't like) and she wont eat it outside.
I am glad I'm not the only one who is confused about this diet.


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## Blondie

Jonesey said:


> Biscuit went through an another two day fast last week. Basically she'd refuse her food, I'd get all worried and start adding things to it or throwing it out for fresh and my OH said I'm creating a monster. <-it's been going on for a while now and she's been getting pickier all the time. He said wait her out or take her off the raw. So I waited and now she's eating tons and wanting more the last three days. She's 9mths now and about 24lbs last time weighed.
> 
> So my question is - can she get overweight on raw? I pretty much feed her when she's hungry, which is at predictable times and always twice a day, but three and five times the last few days. Her diet is low carb and the carbs are from blueberries, raw sweet potatoes and carrots. That makes up about 20% of her food, the rest is minced chicken with bone and organs or minced rabbit with bone and organs and botanicals. Plus a little cooked beef/veal liver ground up and sprinkled on top. Forgot to say I also add herring oil and sea kelp to her raw mixes. Treats are freeze dried liver, chicken and grain free toy breed puppy kibble (I can buy sample bags of high quality kibble at a ridiculously low price). She doesn't get a ton of treats either, they're quite small to begin with and I break up the liver and chicken into little bits.
> 
> It seems I must always worry about something.... And I am wondering if it's much like us humans, ie: the more junk food, easy carbs you eat the more you want and the more that is stored as fat OR eat a natural diet low in refined carbs and you will not tend to over eat or become overweight.


A dog certainly can get overweight on the raw diet, lol! Ideally, you should be keeping a puppy/young dog ever so slightly underweight, you can do this simply by using your eyes, if pup is losing her waistline, simply cut down her food, starting with the carbs as excess carbs are indeed stored in fat cells if not used. The reasoning behind keeping pup a tad lean is to allow proper slor growth and maturity of skeleton - the last thing you want is a pup overweight and shooting up at a rapid rate of knots which simply stores up skeletal problems for the future. You know your dog the best - beilieve in yourself and watch your pup!:thumbup:


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## Blondie

doggydoo said:


> Thank you everyone for replying to my earlier post, I've had a pretty miserable day. I chose the vet on a recommendation and convenience but my husband has gone crazy at the way I was spoken to so he thinks once she has had her 2nd vaccination we will find another vet. How do you find one thats tolerant of the raw diet, I live in a smallish town and only know of one other vet that has a huge Hills science diet add in the window so I think it may be similar there.
> I am finding it very stressful at the moment looking after my active pup and worrying about the diet as I had never even heard of the barf/raw diet before getting my pup. I hate the mess of the chicken as she picks it up and takes it to her bed(which I don't like) and she wont eat it outside.
> I am glad I'm not the only one who is confused about this diet.


There isnt a huge need to have a Vet that agrees with YOUR choice of feeding YOUR dogs! I have a couple of vets I use for different things, dependant on whats wrong with the dog, only one advocates the raw diet - I simply decline to mention it to the others, lol! One does know I feed raw and gave up years ago trying to tell me any different. If a Vet starts giving you info about diets like complete, just nod in all the right places and when you leave you carry on doing what you are doing - simples! lol! Funny enough, the last vet I tried commented on how well my dog looked and how he hardly ever sees such healthy specimens blah blah blah - he then asked what food I fed him on, he nearly fell over backwards when I said raw!!! He did have the courtesy to say although he has always been against raw, he had to admit my boy did look the picture of health on it and maybe there is something in it after all.

If you dont like your dog taking the food to eat elsewhere - have a you a crate you could feed her in for a while? Or shut the kitchen door whilst she is eating? Of just somehow limit the area which she has to eat in? Perhaps only allow to her have a chicken wing or her bones in her bed? That wont be so messy.

Have you bought a book to help with feeding raw? If not, I would recommend you do - it c an help to have a book to hand when you forget something or want to look something up. I started off with all of Ian Billinhursts books, all are extremely good reading and good for reference too. Then I got Tom Lonsdale's books, he is really good too. The difference being Ian feeds veggies and Tom doesnt. I started feeding veggies but now dont and I feel its better not to - but it has to be your choice! perhaps you could be a book by each and make your own mind up! I dont follow either to the letter - but that comes with having fed raw for years now and I tweak things to suit my own dogs, you will learn to do the same given time.


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## xxxnickixxx

Prize Choice Freeflow Minces
Is it ok to feed these on just there own as a main meal ?
my older dog loves these duno if there ok for my 6 month old pup


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## Jonesey

Ceearott said:


> A dog certainly can get overweight on the raw diet, lol! Ideally, you should be keeping a puppy/young dog ever so slightly underweight, you can do this simply by using your eyes, if pup is losing her waistline, simply cut down her food, starting with the carbs as excess carbs are indeed stored in fat cells if not used. The reasoning behind keeping pup a tad lean is to allow proper slor growth and maturity of skeleton - the last thing you want is a pup overweight and shooting up at a rapid rate of knots which simply stores up skeletal problems for the future. You know your dog the best - beilieve in yourself and watch your pup!:thumbup:


Thank you for the post. Her waistline is high, the vet said that to know her right weight we should be able to feel her ribs, but not see them - although with the coat she's got on her she has to be wet. And that's not hard these days, I didn't realize the bathroom door wasn't completely closed and she tried to jump in the shower with me this morning! But that's another story.

This puppy can play me in ways that my children wouldn't get away with (I'm a mind reader when it comes to them lol). It was very hard for me to wait her out although I'm glad I finally took the firm route. I know that dogs once neutered have more of a tendency towards overweight so I appreciate the information.


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## Blondie

xxxnickixxx said:


> Prize Choice Freeflow Minces
> Is it ok to feed these on just there own as a main meal ?
> my older dog loves these duno if there ok for my 6 month old pup


Absolutely fine to feed this as a meal on its own, for the puppy too 

Although you may wanna add a choice of supplements, especially for the puppy, add things like a couple of dollops of natural bio-yoghurt/cottage cheese/ raw egg/bit of honey/splash of virgin olive oil/ tine of sardines, tuna, makerel etc.

Choose one supplement perday or every other day, and 2-3 raw eggs per week is enough. You dont day what breed you have though, these dollop measurements are used as a guidleine for your large breeds, like mine, so if you have a smaller breed, adjust accordingly.


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## Malmum

I'm useless at the weight thing and have always gone by what my dogs physical appearance looks like. If they get a bit tubby - can't feel the ribs - I cut down their food a bit, if they seem to trim (never happens, lol) i'd up it a bit. 
There is a list of barf friendly vets in the uk, my daughter has shown me it before. I'll pm her to put up the link on here as she's at work. One time when Marty was ill the vet blamed it entirely on obstruction and implied we were virtually killing our dog. She then went on to say even the wolves that she workes with in a complex were fed kibble! 
Turned out Marty had pancreatitis, no obstruction at all - I was livid and made a complaint to the head vet, who then told me they do get a lot of obstruction with TOYS!!!! Bl**dy idiots - they don't question what I feed anymore, they've absolutely no right to either!


----------



## xxxnickixxx

Ceearott said:


> Absolutely fine to feed this as a meal on its own, for the puppy too
> 
> Although you may wanna add a choice of supplements, especially for the puppy, add things like a couple of dollops of natural bio-yoghurt/cottage cheese/ raw egg/bit of honey/splash of virgin olive oil/ tine of sardines, tuna, makerel etc.
> 
> Choose one supplement perday or every other day, and 2-3 raw eggs per week is enough. You dont day what breed you have though, these dollop measurements are used as a guidleine for your large breeds, like mine, so if you have a smaller breed, adjust accordingly.


what sort of supplements would i have to add to it every day ?
my pup is a collie cross and my older dog is Alsatian cross ..... would it be ok to just add things like tuna in sunflour oil and rice and yogurt and chesse on other days ? i just wanna be putting in the right stuff in with the mince that my dogs need


----------



## Blondie

I am the same when it comes to working out the %'s and stuff re the dogs weight - am crap with numbers and anything to do with maths, lol!!

I use my eyes too!! I can SEE when my dogs are a little underweight/overweight and adjust the diet accordingly, much easier, lol!!

My OH is much better at working it out the other way, and he can do it in his head immediately - smartass!!


----------



## Blondie

xxxnickixxx said:


> what sort of supplements would i have to add to it every day ?
> my pup is a collie cross and my older dog is Alsatian cross ..... would it be ok to just add things like tuna in sunflour oil and rice and yogurt and chesse on other days ? i just wanna be putting in the right stuff in with the mince that my dogs need


Yeah, sounds fine what you wrote - dunno what rice you using, but brown is best really, white rice is very processed, brown costs a little more and takes longet to cook, but as its not fed in huge amounts the cost shouldnt make much difference. Just add something different everyday, and one day, dont give anything at all, just give the meat. Are you giving bones too? Bones are an important part of this diet, or is the minced meat including the whole carcass minced? In which case bones will be in there.


----------



## xxxnickixxx

Ceearott said:


> Yeah, sounds fine what you wrote - dunno what rice you using, but brown is best really, white rice is very processed, brown costs a little more and takes longet to cook, but as its not fed in huge amounts the cost shouldnt make much difference. Just add something different everyday, and one day, dont give anything at all, just give the meat. Are you giving bones too? Bones are an important part of this diet, or is the minced meat including the whole carcass minced? In which case bones will be in there.


i was looking at this Berriewood - Clear Pack Chicken Mince 25x454g

i wasnt going to give any bones just chicken mince and add extras to it what sort of supplement would i need ?
but what sort of bones are you talking about the any from butches ?


----------



## Malmum

xxxnickixxx said:


> what sort of supplements would i have to add to it every day ?
> my pup is a collie cross and my older dog is Alsatian cross ..... would it be ok to just add things like tuna in sunflour oil and rice and yogurt and chesse on other days ? i just wanna be putting in the right stuff in with the mince that my dogs need


Don't put anything cooked with the raw, it digests at a different rate and you can cause tummy upsets. 
You will need a little liver, around a palmfull a couple of times a week and heart, kidney etc. You can give salmon oil Salmon Oil - Fish4Dogs Online Shop - Natural Food for Dogs for a healthy coat but you don't need anything like cheese, there's all the protien and calcium they need in the raw and bones. Just remember to add some offal, a variety of meats - once your dogs used to chicken, move on to another and so on til you're giving chicken, lamb, rabbit, venison, tripe and meaty bones. You don't need veg but you can mush some in a blender and add if you like in small quantities, mine love veg so I add some each meal, I give sweetcorn, peas, carrot, mange tout, swede in the raw form and sometimes just a bowl of fresh veg between meals as a treat instead of commercial chews. They love fruit too so an apple is healthier I feel than a fat soaked cooked pigs ear from the pet shop. 

Meaty rib bones are good, chicken wings but be careful to hold at first while your dog learns to chew and not gulp them whole. Chicken legs are bigger so if you're worried you can give them instead - don't worry they are safe if cooked bones that are dangerous. Here's a good book, easy to understand and excellent for a beginer: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Work-Wonder...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1298973032&sr=1-1 - you can referr to it whenever you need some info and it's very straightforward.


----------



## xxxnickixxx

is the a good meat to put them on as its chicken mince 
Berriewood - Clear Pack Chicken Mince 25x454g

what supplement would i need other than salmon oil ?


----------



## Blondie

xxxnickixxx said:


> i was looking at this Berriewood - Clear Pack Chicken Mince 25x454g
> 
> i wasnt going to give any bones just chicken mince and add extras to it what sort of supplement would i need ?
> but what sort of bones are you talking about the any from butches ?


Any bones will do, but introduce lamb/pork bones slowly as young dogs can find them a bit rich and it will give em them trots, lol! Chicken wings are ideal to start, supermarkets sell them, they are fine to give.

I get all my stuff from my supplier, DAF, (durham animal feeds) and he delivers to my door, dead handy. He has bones and stuff too. If you aint got a supplier that will do this for you, yeah, butchers in fine.

And, yeah, be more careful with rib bones until you know your dog can handle them okay as they are prone to splintering more easily, even when raw.


----------



## Malmum

The only supplements I use are clucosamine/chondroitin/msm for the joints, they are a combined tablet so I give one per day. Flynn has HD and has had one hip replced and due another next month so I always give these to all of the big dogs. Green lipped mussel is another I add - one tab per day. https://www.petstuffgalore.co.uk/do...es--supplements/denes-grn-lip-mussel-100.html
I get from the dogffod co. and have it delivered. Yesterday I picked up three boxes of chicken wings from my butcher, I got three 15kgs boxes for a fiver each. I get them from the butcher as they seem nicer than the ones from the supplier, bagged them all up into daily portions and freeze them - while the dogs watch - lovingly, lol!


----------



## Blondie

This is my boy enjoying a lamb carcass! YUMYUM!!










Two of my girls sharing a bed whilst chowing on a bone









A puppy from my last litter enjoying a grouse!


----------



## Blondie

My boy Blue who had sneaked this back into the house when he knows fine well he is to eat it outside, lol!!


----------



## Malmum

Crikey! My Mals would never sit so close when they've got a bone! They are so food orientated I think there'd be a war if I tried to feed them together, lol. What gorgeous dogs you have and to think what some say about Rotties eh? must make you livid!


----------



## Blondie

Malmum said:


> Crikey! My Mals would never sit so close when they've got a bone! They are so food orientated I think there'd be a war if I tried to feed them together, lol. What gorgeous dogs you have and to think what some say about Rotties eh? must make you livid!


Thanks!! Tis quite funny sometimes when they get huge bones/carcasses. Magnum scoots off upstairs to eat his in peace on the landing, Cleo, the number 1, will eat in the hallway, Maddie and Darla will share the bed and Blue will eat wherever there is a space, lol!! Sometimes they will even swap with each other, and chew someone elses for while. They are all very good together, we dont often have any hoohaas, lol!! They all know they place within the pack and act accordingly.

And, yeah, somt things never change re the comments about the breed, I tend to remain much calmer these days about it all, lol!! Somtimes I let fly though, especially if people really start dissing the breed or my dogs, I normally pass comment that its not my dogs you need to watch - its me, PMSL!!!!


----------



## Malmum

PRO RAW FEEDING VET PRACTICES

Wayne Smith
Alder Veterinary Surgery
58 Bourne Rd
Spalding
Lincolnshire

Blue House Vets
71a Congleton Rd
Biddulph
Staffordshire
ST8 6EF

Gordon Roberts
Earls Hall Veterinary Group
Rayleigh Road Veterinary Surgery
557 Rayleigh Road
Eastwood
Essex SS9 5HP

Mr G Johnson
Springfield Veterinary Surgery
32 Long Street
Williton
Somerset
TA4 4QU

NOT ANTI-RAW FEEDING

Acacia Veterinary Practice
38 Norwood Avenue
Southport
Merseyside
PR9 7EG


PilgrimVets
Boston
Lincolnshire

Helen Groves-De-Milleret
Barton Veterinary Hospital
New Dover Road
Canterbury
Kent

Prospect Veterinary Centre
1 Wakefield Road
Sowerby Bridge
West Yorkshire
HX6 2AP

Heike Kopac
David Terry Veterinary Surgeon
1/2 Park Street
Hull
HU3 2JF
also
14-18 New Village Road
Cottingham
HU16 4LT

Roger Harrison,
1 Rivers Place,
Julian Road,
Bath

Tower Wood Vets
27 Tinshill Road
Cookridge
Leeds

Oakwood Veterinary Centre
Babbinswood Farm
Whittington
Oswestry
Shropshire
SY11 4PF

The Blairgowrie Vet Practice
Castle Street
Blairgowrie
Perthshire
__________________


----------



## Jonesey

Ceearott said:


> This is my boy enjoying a lamb carcass! YUMYUM!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two of my girls sharing a bed whilst chowing on a bone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A puppy from my last litter enjoying a grouse!


Great pics and no offense intended, but how do you keep things clean??? Is that a dog carpet there where the lamb was eaten? I've started giving bones again, but only outside.

My sister did home visits when she was starting out as an RMT. Once she was at a house where they raw fed their dogs and was told it was fine to sit on the couch, there was a sheet on it. Anyway when she got home her dog was all over her licking her back, rear and the backs of her legs. Gross!


----------



## xxxnickixxx

my friend is gonna pick me some chicken mince up for my two as she feeds her dog on it 60 454kg blocks for 30 pounds 

just need to work out how much to give my dogs i think one 454KG block a day will be fine for my adult dog but be too much for the pup


----------



## Malmum

Ceearott said:


> My boy Blue who had sneaked this back into the house when he knows fine well he is to eat it outside, lol!!


This post was brilliant and proved a point for me today. 
My son (32) was banging on about how the dogs could have raw but he personally wouldn't give pigs heads as that was way too gross. He said I bet other people don't do it and it's not necessary. We were having this heated debate just as you posted this pic - stopped him right in his tracks :thumbup:
He said what's that that Rotties eating, triumphantly I replied "a pigs head of course" 
Ooow that was a lovely feeling!


----------



## xxxnickixxx

can i give my dogs raw chicken wings or drumsticks which would be best ?


----------



## SixStar

xxxnickixxx said:


> can i give my dogs raw chicken wings or drumsticks which would be best ?


Both are fine. Wings are cheaper.


----------



## xxxnickixxx

thats great ill pick some up tomorrow lol 
not sure what else to get while im there as this first time im tyring my dog on RAW lol


----------



## SixStar

If it's your dogs first time trying raw, hold fast and stick with just the chicken for a while. It's a good raw starter food, easy on the stomach and easy to eat. Once he is ok eating the chicken, then you can start being more adventurous. If your dog is prone to bolting food down, make sure you hold the end of the bone whilst he eats, to ensure he actually chews the bone rather than wolfing it down whole. 

Also, remember never to feed raw and commerical/cooked food in the same meal (I'd say ideally never in the same day, but I know many people do).


----------



## xxxnickixxx

would chicken mice and brown rice be ok ?


----------



## SixStar

Raw chicken? No, I wouldn't feed raw and cooked foods in one meal.


----------



## xxxnickixxx

SixStar said:


> Raw chicken? No, I wouldn't feed raw and cooked foods in one meal.


would feeding it as as a sep meal be ok ?


----------



## SixStar

I personally don't like to feed raw and cooked foods in the same day. I feed kibble one day, and raw food (BARF) the next. I know many people do feed it in the same day however, ie- raw food for breakfast, and kibble for dinner, and they say they have no problems. Not something I'd do though.

Why do you want to feed rice? A dog gets next to nothing from it.


----------



## Ditsy42

Malmum said:


> This post was brilliant and proved a point for me today.
> My son (32) was banging on about how the dogs could have raw but he personally wouldn't give pigs heads as that was way too gross. He said I bet other people don't do it and it's not necessary. We were having this heated debate just as you posted this pic - stopped him right in his tracks :thumbup:
> He said what's that that Rotties eating, triumphantly I replied "a pigs head of course"
> Ooow that was a lovely feeling!


Lol that made me laugh so much, Ceearott is my breeder and we r both sitting here wetting ourselves laughing at this :thumbup:


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## Malmum

Ditsy42 said:


> Lol that made me laugh so much, Ceearott is my breeder and we r both sitting here wetting ourselves laughing at this :thumbup:


Serves him right for being such a know all!


----------



## xxxnickixxx

SixStar said:


> I personally don't like to feed raw and cooked foods in the same day. I feed kibble one day, and raw food (BARF) the next. I know many people do feed it in the same day however, ie- raw food for breakfast, and kibble for dinner, and they say they have no problems. Not something I'd do though.
> 
> Why do you want to feed rice? A dog gets next to nothing from it.


Im thinking if to stick them with WW wet and give them half of Raw chicken mince for there 2nd meal


----------



## Keita

Hi everyone,

Great thread been reading for a few weeks. I'm starting a RMB diet for my dogs a German Shepherd and Westie within the next few days. I have read Tom Lonsdale' book and loads of brilliant info from your good selves.:thumbup:

Please would you just check over my first week for my first raw meal ideas, any
suggestions or opinions would be much appriciated

I've worked out 900 grams a day for Keita (GSD)
And 400 grams a day for Alfie (Westie)

Then roughly 60%:40% meaty bones to meaty meal per day gives me
540 grams meaty bones to 360 grams meat for Keita (GSD)
240 grams meaty bones to 160 grams meat for Alfie (Westie


Keita German Shepherd / Alfie Westie

Tues AM 4 chicken thighs / 2 chicken thighs
Tues PM Chicken mince with bone / chicken mince 

Wed AM 6 chicken drumsticks / 3 chick drumstick
Wed PM Rabbit mince with bone / Rabbit mince 

Thur AM 4 Chicken thighs / 2 chicken thigh
PM Turkey mince / turkey mince

Fri AM 4 chicken leg quaters / 2 chick legquart
PM Turkey meat chunks /  Turkey meat chunks

Sat AM 2 Chick thighs 3 chick drumsticks / 3 chick drumsticks
PM Chicken mince with grated veg / chick mince with
a raw egg mixed in / veg and egg.


Please advise me if this looks ok, are drumsticks thighs ok for the shepherd?
I have ox heart and liver, would you introduce a tiny bit of this in the second week if all goes well? Should I wait to add in any fish for a week or so? Also I have got some Pigs trotters in the freezer today from Morrisons, should I also save this for a few weeks?

Sorry about all the questions just need some reassurance. Also when I get sorted would like to order from the dog food company, the food their looks great.

Many many thanks Kerry


----------



## cinnamontoast

This looks good. Just check your weights-my lot are about 20kg and the babies get 600g a day so maybe your GSD may need more depending on her weight.

Variety is key although having a staple is fab. Can you get green tripe anywhere? As you know, introduce the offal very slowly and introduce new things v gradually. I find whole fish causes loose, sloppy poo so they only get a small amount each time. Give it a week or two on the basics to start with. 

How big are the pigs' trotters? Mine (springers) spent ages trying to get through full length legs/trotters!


----------



## Keita

My GSD is 4 years old and about 40K. And the Westie is 12 months old and 12K.

I might wait abit before giving those trottersActually that's puzzled me abit, are trotters not classed as pork?
I think I saw some green tripe at the dog company website, but I don't know whether they deliver to my area, I've emailed them but have to wait and see, I was going to order from Landywoods but not all great reviews about them as made me hold fire and shop at the supermarkets for the time being.

What about supplements? What do you recommend and would you wait a couple of weeks to introduce them?

Thanks for your help


----------



## dogloverdi

Thank you for the loads of useful information. I feed my baby Sasha raw food, too. She loves it!
I was looking for some new recipes, actually, and your thread seems more than resourceful. Thanks!


----------



## logansmum

Raw feeder here!

My GSD is 40k and i feed 2.5-3lb of food a day.

I use Landywood Pet Foods : Home as i live near them but there are many other suppliers too..

lil bit on raw feeding...

Quantities - as a guideline feed 2 - 3% of your present dogs bodyweight per day. Calculate this by multiplying 2/3 by your dog's weight and dividing it by 100.

Eg 2 x 30/100 = 600g, 3 x 30/100 = 900g.

However be guided by your hand and eye; if the dog is looking a little too ribby up the amount and reduce if the dog is looking a little too well padded! Dogs will vary depending on age, sex, activity level, temperament and time of year.

Meats - lamb, beef, chicken, turkey, rabbit, pork, venison, duck, hearts, lungs, kidneys, tripe the list is endless.

Fish - oily fish is good, pilchards, mackerel, sardines, trout fresh or tinned.

Veggies - All except onions; they can cause haemolytic anaemia in dogs because they contain chemicals that oxidise the animal's red blood cells.

Oxalic acid can interfere with calcium absorption; so don't feed too much of Spinach, Chard or Beetroot Leaves.

Care should be taken not to overfeed cabbage, brussel sprouts, cauliflower, kale, swedes, turnips, cassava, and broccoli to dogs as this may inhibit thyroid function.

Tomatoes, potatoes, peppers and aubergines all belong to the nightshade family of plants. Dogs who have arthritis may be sensitive to these foods; I personally don't feed potatoes at all.

Fruit - all except Grapes and raisins which can cause kidney failure.

Dairy - IMHO nothing except live yoghurt.

Eggs  raw with shell

Grains/cereals  none; dogs are not built to digest them

Vitamins/Supplements - Again that is down to the individual; my dogs get:

a fresh minced clove of garlic every other day, 1000mg FBO (Fish Body Oil), 
400 iu Natural Vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol),

Books - The simplest one is Switching to Raw by Sue Johnson but that is not easily available in the UK. The next best one IMHO is Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats by Kymythy Schulze, very accessible, easy to read, has diet plans. Some extraneous stuff you don't need ie reader testimonials and I personally don't agree with fasting.

Ian Billingshurst has written several books; The Barf Diet is probably the easiest, Give your Dog a Bone is very comprehensive but very badly written, Grow your pups with bones is more for the stud dog/brood bitch puppy owner. Tom Lonsdale's Raw Meaty Bones is less useful for the beginner IMHO although his latest book is not too bad.

Websites - Britbarf, K9nutrition yahoo groups the first is ffice:smarttags" />lace>UKlace> the second is an excellent lace>USlace> site,

Frequency of feeding  twice a day, especially in larger breeds prone to bloat.

Suggested menu guide only

Monday am: RMBs eg chicken wings, drumsticks, thighs, carcases etc, ribs, trotters, rabbit, oxtail 
Monday pm: Tripe

Tuesday am: RMBs 
Tuesday pm: liver and veggies

Wednesday am: RMBs 
Wednesday pm: Meat, raw egg, veggies

Thursday am: RMBs 
Thursday pm: Kidneys and veggies

Friday am: RMBs 
Friday pm: Hearts and veggies

Saturday am: RMBs 
Saturday pm: Tinned or fresh fish

Sunday am: RMBs 
Sunday pm: Live yoghurt, raw egg, banana etc.

UK Raw Pet Food Suppliers List Defra, UK - Food and farming (UK)

UK Raw Meaty Bones - support and action group www.ukrmb.co.uk/(UK)

TPMS Pet Food T.P.M.S. Pet Food Specialists - Tripe - www.thedogsdinner.com (UK)

Local suppliers for Raw Food in NE Hampshire and Surrey Boarders Dog Training & Grooming Hampshire, Berkshire and Surrey (UK)

Jays of Askern. Unit 48, Askern Ind.Estate, Moss Road, Askern, Yorkshire Tel: 01405 862554/07767 358073 or email [email protected]

Landywood Pet Food Landywood Pet Foods : Home (UK)

Durham Animal Feeds Durham Animal Feeds :: DAF Petfood - Durham Animal Feeds (UK)

The Dog-Food Company (Suffolk) www.thedogfoodcompany.net (UK)

Anglian Meat Products Anglian Meat Products | Natural Pet Food (UK)

The UK Directory for Organic Food Organic Portal (UK)

JM Pet Supplies jmpetsupplies.com (UK)

Worldsway Rabbit Pet Meat (UK) 
Berriewood http://www.berriewoodwholesale.co.uk...=148&id=berrie


----------



## dvnbiker

well after months of wrangling I have gone back to raw feeding after trying it initially for only 6 months and not getting on with it. This time though I am using the food from rawtogo where they do the percentages of bone, meat and offal for you - this has taken all of the worry out of it. 

So the dogs started back on it last Thursday and a week on I have my girlie breaking her wait in front of her bowl just to get at it - this is unhead of for her as she has never been a big foodie. so nice to see. :001_smile:

Keeping them on chicken and turkey for the first couple of weeks and then have lamb and chicken/beef so try. Cant wait to do the next order to order all sorts plus the bones.


----------



## cinnamontoast

I'm such a mug! I had no idea the bunnies would be so long! Without chopping them in half (frozen, would be tricky!) they don't fit in the freezer! Oh well, bunnies for tea tomorrow! 

Anyone know if it's like chicken in that it's bland and they won't be sick if they eat a whole one each tomorrow? I could chop them once they're defrosted but I'm terrified one might be pregnant!


----------



## Jasper's Bloke

A good cleaver should go straight through them as long as you give it a bit of welly, even when they are still frozen. Rabbit is classed as game so has a much richer flavour than chicken, more lamby, so if it the first time you have given it, best start off slowly.


----------



## cinnamontoast

Jasper's Bloke said:


> A good cleaver should go straight through them as long as you give it a bit of welly, even when they are still frozen. Rabbit is classed as game so has a much richer flavour than chicken, more lamby, so if it the first time you have given it, best start off slowly.


Thanks. I have an excellent cleaver! I chopped up frozen meaty bones yesterday-splinters flying everywhere. I love the delivery from the company-plonked it on the table-3 rigid rabbits on top! The dogs were desperate to get to it but made do with cows' ears cos they'd already had tea.:001_smile:


----------



## nykea

cinammontoast said:


> Thanks. I have an excellent cleaver! I chopped up frozen meaty bones yesterday-splinters flying everywhere. I love the delivery from the company-plonked it on the table-3 rigid rabbits on top! The dogs were desperate to get to it but made do with cows' ears cos they'd already had tea.:001_smile:


Where do you get your deliveries from? I'm using DAF at the moment and I'm very pleased with them (except maybe the way they deliver, it always takes a while before they locate the right boxes in the van), but I would like to extend the range even further. I'm thinking especially about offal, at the moment we are on pig and lamb kidneys, I feed liver of pig, lamb and ox as well, but I use it as training treats, baked, so don't usually give it raw (I know it's baked not raw, but in the same time I think it's more than I would normally give so don't want to overdo it).

Got some pheasant carcasses with plenty of meat on from my friend.... but my boy doesn't like pheasant!!


----------



## nykea

In last few days we had a wee problem. My boy is happily eating bones for more than a month now, and except problems with constipation (now almost resolved by changing types of meaty bones and frequencies) everything was fine. However, the day before yesterday he made a very disgusting slimy poo with a lot of mucus and a streaks of blood. Since then I skipped one meal, and afterwards gave him minces. No poo yesterday, today there was one, bit softish but no mucus and no blood. Of course I will keep and eye on him (and the poo ), but have you had that? He was a bit upset yesterday, sleeping a lot and curling into a ball (normally he sleeps with his paws up :blink: ), today he is a bit better, but still not himself. His back is straight tho and when I touch his belly he doesn't seem to be in pain.


----------



## billybarney

Hi i am fairly new to raw feeding and wondered if anyone could help me with questions please .
i have a greyhound who weighs 29kg and a springer who weighs 16kg. 
i have been feed them a dog mince and veg for the last few months and my Greyhound has lost loads of weight i think i am doing something really wrong help . Following a thread on here somewhere i worked out how much muscle meat the dogs should have and everything else went to my local butchers and for just one meal it cost me £4.80 . i really cant afford to feed them this way if thats how much it would cost them to feed once a day let alone twice a day . so what am i doing wrong 
Sorry if this is in the wrong place dont know how to post a thread on here !!!!!


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## nykea

Hi billybarney, first of all, I had bad experience with minces. It's hard to check how much meat and bone they have and as a result my dog had really bad constipations. It's good to read this topic and some other sources, they will tell you the proportion of meat and meaty bones you should be feeding them. As for getting your meat from the butchers, no wonder it cost so much if you bought the meat!! As you will read, meat should be a small proportion of the diet, most of it should be attached to the bone - hence Raw MEATY bones. The price of these is much lower than of meat alone. I think that majority of people buy their supplies on-line, or have a good deal with local butchers. I have a dog that is getting to 50kg now, I'm feeding him 1,5kg/day, from which 1kg is meat, bones and offal. I would go bankrupt pretty quickly, but with my current set up I'm actually saving loads of money compared to the kibble. The initial cost would be probably buying a separate freezer which is both economical (the more you buy, the less you spend :tongue_smilie: ) and hygiene.

Edit: Oh, if you're using frozen nuggets from pets at home (mince meat and veg), my dog lost weight on that as well. And no wonder! Check the ingredients, it differs between "flavours", but some of them have as little as 40% meat/bone!! In contrary to some people here I feed fruit and veg, but not as much as that! In our diet fruit and veg accounts for up to 20%.


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## billybarney

Thanks for your reply i am glad its not just me with the mince issue she is soooo skinny its scary . ok so if i was to buy on line i have had a llok at The Dog Food Company. How much of what would i feel per meal ie would it be 2 chicken thighs or something like that and whatelse ??? My dogs love the veg and fruit i blend for them so i would like to still keep giving it to them . i normally put a tablespoon of pro yog in one meal then alternate it with cottage cheese not sure if that's the right thing to do ??? Am really confused at very worried about my beautiful Greyhound am wondering if i should put them back on dry food as she nener lost this kinda of weight on that .:cryin:


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## nykea

No probs  I don't want to give you more advice, as we are fairly new on that as well, maybe wait for more experienced people to answer. I answered because I had similar problems. 
What I can tell you from my fresh experience is that it's best to read this topic and others, making notes. There is quite a few examplary recipes here. And even when you get all the information, your dogs will "fine-tune" it for you  Observe them!! If they eat quickly, stay away from thighs and wings, better feed carcasses. In general poultry is better at the beginning as bones of mammals have different structure and they are more constipating. Staying with poultry will let your dogs' stomachs to adjust to ingesting bones. When you introduce new food, take your time. I was hasty, because my dog had no obvious problems (accepting new meat types), but in the long run I think that some of the constipations were because he never had the time to get used to digesting bone. In the same time, remember that the benefits of this food are in its variety!! So introduce slowly, but have that diversity in plan. 
If you'd like to feed veg and fruit check out book by Ian Billinghurst. 
And don't worry, I tried "half-made" raw products and they didn't work for us, but since I started feeding him proper raw diet, all prepared by myself, he put on weight in no time, for the first time in his life!!


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## Jasper's Bloke

billybarney said:


> Hi i am fairly new to raw feeding and wondered if anyone could help me with questions please .
> i have a greyhound who weighs 29kg and a springer who weighs 16kg.
> i have been feed them a dog mince and veg for the last few months and my Greyhound has lost loads of weight i think i am doing something really wrong help . Following a thread on here somewhere i worked out how much muscle meat the dogs should have and everything else went to my local butchers and for just one meal it cost me £4.80 . i really cant afford to feed them this way if thats how much it would cost them to feed once a day let alone twice a day . so what am i doing wrong
> Sorry if this is in the wrong place dont know how to post a thread on here !!!!!


My dog is around 29ish Kgs and on average it costs me about £1.50 a day to feed him. If I had the freezer space and could buy in bulk then it would be a lot less. A 30kg dog needs about 750g of food per day made up of 80/10/10% meat/bone/offal. I advise splitting up that ratio over the course of a week rather than trying to get it all into every meal.

I use a minced tripe from a local butcher which is 45p per lb (450g) and then whatever I can get cheap for the rest. My fallback for instance is Tesco Value frozen chicken portions, good chunks of whole leg or drumsticks and thighs. A 2kg bag is £2.79 and that makes 5 x 400g meals, so in combination with the tripe, 5 days costs me £5.04. This goes up of course if I buy more expensive meats like lamb or beef, or sometimes down when I can get a bargain. Once a week for example I feed whole sardines, again frozen from Tesco but only £1.99 for a 2kg bag.

Finding a butcher who can supply you is not easy but well worth the effort, just bear in mind that the majority of them have no idea about feeding dogs and while some have offered to help where they can, many have been quite put out by the idea, even to the point of being downright rude. I have also found that there are not many butchers who actually butcher their own meat, ie buying in whole carcasses and then dividing it into the various cuts. Most buy in their meat already in this state simply because it is less work for them and there is less waste. Unfortunately this 'waste' is the bit we are interested in, things like chicken carcasses, lamb rib bones and turkey necks have practically no value (they either throw them away or sometimes sell them to restaurants to make stock), but they make excellent meals for a dog. So if you can find a butcher who has this kind of stuff then they will usually let you have it for next to nothing. It is a numbers game though and many only sell in bulk, so freezer space is a big help.

Just this morning I found a butcher I had never been to before who was happy to sell me frozen local rabbits for £3 each and was not in the least bit shocked when I told him they were for the dog. Two rabbits for 6 quid makes me 5 or 6 meals, bit more expensive than the chicken but variety is the key to balance so well worth it I thought.


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## billybarney

well she has just eaten the very expensive meat from the butchers in under a minute  i don't think it even touched the sides .... so i take it that whilst she is behaving like a starving Marvin it is best not to give her the chicken wings and thighs etc  Also the butcher game me all the scrapts he had a pigs ear lots of fat and some other yucky stuff including half a jaw of a pig with its teeth still in  i decided not to give it to the greyhound after i had thrown up 3 times that's just plain nasty .Do people seriously feed their dogs that ???? anyone have any advice please feel free to send it my way


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## billybarney

thanks Jaspers bloke that was really helpful  So for their breakfast in the morning i have in the freezer chicken wings ,beef chunks,chicken necks,some lamd with bones in i bought from Asda's last week and the dreaded bag of pet mince so what should i feed them for breakfast ????


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## Jasper's Bloke

billybarney said:


> well she has just eaten the very expensive meat from the butchers in under a minute  i don't think it even touched the sides .... so i take it that whilst she is behaving like a starving Marvin it is best not to give her the chicken wings and thighs etc  Also the butcher game me all the scrapts he had a pigs ear lots of fat and some other yucky stuff including half a jaw of a pig with its teeth still in  i decided not to give it to the greyhound after i had thrown up 3 times that's just plain nasty .Do people seriously feed their dogs that ???? anyone have any advice please feel free to send it my way


They usually spit the teeth out. There are some great pics on here somewhere of rotties eating a pigs head, really cool!

You will probably find that wings and thighs take a little getting used to, they can't just swallow them down like meat chunks or mince so they have to learn to chew them and if they have never done it before..............

They soon pick it up though. The important thing is to give joints that are an appropriate size, not small enough to swallow, wings and thighs should be perfect for a grey.


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## rawdogs

Jaspersbloke,you said you get minced tripe from your butcher,is it white?
far as i know butchers are not allowed to sell natural green tripe,and the white contains very little nutrition.
Green tripe can be found in the freezer at pets at home .


Don,t meant to butt in,just thought it worth mentioning,i,ll slip back into lurkerdom now


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## cinnamontoast

billybarney said:


> Hi i am fairly new to raw feeding and wondered if anyone could help me with questions please .
> i have a greyhound who weighs 29kg and a springer who weighs 16kg.
> i have been feed them a dog mince and veg for the last few months and my Greyhound has lost loads of weight i think i am doing something really wrong help . Following a thread on here somewhere i worked out how much muscle meat the dogs should have and everything else went to my local butchers and for just one meal it cost me £4.80 . i really cant afford to feed them this way if thats how much it would cost them to feed once a day let alone twice a day . so what am i doing wrong
> Sorry if this is in the wrong place dont know how to post a thread on here !!!!!


You need to find a reliable source. The Dog Food Company covers the south east but there are other companies (see logansmum read on here for the others) I just paid 31 p for economy mince from Dog Food Company. Tripe is about 36p per pound so it works out quite cheaply. I don't buy from the supermarket cos I'd be bankrupt! Dog Food Company do whole rabbit, meaty bones, mince with bone, tripe, lots more. I don't believe in feeding veg etc as dogs can't break down the plant cell walls/cellulose and I just don't see the point. Chicken leg meat adds weight to dogs, wings etc are fine, but have very little meat and should be held so the dog doesn't gulp it.



nykea said:


> Where do you get your deliveries from? I'm using DAF at the moment and I'm very pleased with them (except maybe the way they deliver, it always takes a while before they locate the right boxes in the van), but I would like to extend the range even further. I'm thinking especially about offal, at the moment we are on pig and lamb kidneys, I feed liver of pig, lamb and ox as well, but I use it as training treats, baked, so don't usually give it raw (I know it's baked not raw, but in the same time I think it's more than I would normally give so don't want to overdo it).
> 
> Got some pheasant carcasses with plenty of meat on from my friend.... but my boy doesn't like pheasant!!


Dog Food Company-they cover the south east. Shame you're not near me, I'd grab those pheasants! Is English your second language (sorry, I'm a language teacher, and very nosy!)?



rawdogs said:


> Jaspersbloke,you said you get minced tripe from your butcher,is it white?
> far as i know butchers are not allowed to sell natural green tripe,and the white contains very little nutrition.
> Green tripe can be found in the freezer at pets at home .
> 
> Don,t meant to butt in,just thought it worth mentioning,i,ll slip back into lurkerdom now


Please don't! You sound like you know what you're on about and we all would benefit from someone with knowledge.


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## nykea

Hm, I don't think they would consider delivering to Scotland... 
Yes, I'm Polish, I moved to Scotland nearly 5 years ago


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## cinnamontoast

nykea said:


> Hm, I don't think they would consider delivering to Scotland...
> Yes, I'm Polish, I moved to Scotland nearly 5 years ago


Thought I was right!


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## billybarney

Hi all I had a long chat with the man from The Dog Food Company wow what a great guy. He told me to take my woofers off the "pet mince" as it was mostly mush so off i trundled to Tesco bought mince,chicken thighs etc. Sugar seems alot more satisfied on it and is not looking for food again within 2 minutes of eating her food .Only thing is she is now very loose in the toilet area would it be cause at usual i have gone like a bull in a china shop and given her too much to start with even tho she has been having extras added to the pet mince ??? 
Her meal consists on beef mince, 2 chicken breasts,a thight. Should i leave out the mince for a while and give her 2 thights ?  Or should i get her chicken mince from the supermarket until i can arrange a delivery from the pet food company which should be about 3 weeks .


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## Jasper's Bloke

billybarney said:


> Hi all I had a long chat with the man from The Dog Food Company wow what a great guy. He told me to take my woofers off the "pet mince" as it was mostly mush so off i trundled to Tesco bought mince,chicken thighs etc. Sugar seems alot more satisfied on it and is not looking for food again within 2 minutes of eating her food .Only thing is she is now very loose in the toilet area would it be cause at usual i have gone like a bull in a china shop and given her too much to start with even tho she has been having extras added to the pet mince ???
> Her meal consists on beef mince, 2 chicken breasts,a thight. Should i leave out the mince for a while and give her 2 thights ?  Or should i get her chicken mince from the supermarket until i can arrange a delivery from the pet food company which should be about 3 weeks .


Dogs are funny creatures but when they are fed continuously on the same type of food such as one brand of kibble their digestive systems tailor themselves to processing that specific kibble and nothing else. Normally when you switch brands you are advised to introduce the new food gradually to allow them time to adjust, if you don't and you make the change too quickly then they are not able to process the different food effectively and you often end up with a sloppy mess for a few days. This clears up as the body adjusts itself. The same is also true when switching to raw, you are making a major change to your dogs diet, much bigger than switching from one kibble to another, and it does sound like you are probably trying going too fast.

Making the change to raw is slightly different in that you can't just start adding a bit of raw meat to their normal food, raw foods and processed foods often digest at different rates and if you mix the two together then the slower moving processed food will hold up the digestion of the raw food. This allows the bacteria in the food time to grow in the gut and could lead to problems. Normally, the reason dogs are so resistant to raw foods that would give you or I food poisoning is simply down to how fast they are able to get it through their system, which therefore does not give any bacteria time to multiply to dangerous levels.

So, if you do have to make the switch over suddenly, it is best to make the change as small as possible. The way to do this is to start off by only feeding raw foods from one source, chicken is normally best, but over the course of the first week just feed chicken. This could be chicken joints, chicken breast or even just chicken mince, but because they are all the same thing and contain all the same proteins and minerals, you are only really making one change. You may well still get a bit of an upset tum but this should pass quickly, your dog is eating a completely different kind of food not just a different flavour, but different consistency, different texture and different levels of nutrients, so there does have to be an adjustment period. Stomach acid, for example, has to increase to 3 times its strength in order to break down raw meat compared to what it was when it was processing kibble and this takes a little time. There are also lots of things in commercial kibble such as cereals and additives that will take time to work themselves out of the system.

Using meat from a variety of sources is the key to getting a balanced raw diet but sticking to just one for the first week or so will do no harm. Once pooch is settled on one type of meat then you can start to introduce another, then another and then maybe some offal and so on. After the initial adjustment period the dog is more than capable of processing any meat, but there is never any need to rush and taking your time can save you a fortune in poop bags!

Hope that makes sense!


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## Jasper's Bloke

rawdogs said:


> Jaspersbloke,you said you get minced tripe from your butcher,is it white?
> far as i know butchers are not allowed to sell natural green tripe,and the white contains very little nutrition.
> Green tripe can be found in the freezer at pets at home .
> 
> Don,t meant to butt in,just thought it worth mentioning,i,ll slip back into lurkerdom now


Interesting point, I had not heard that before. Will have to investigate.

Incidentally I notice that you are in Walsall, not a million miles from me (Halesowen), can I ask where you get your supplies from?


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## Souris

nykea said:


> Hm, I don't think they would consider delivering to Scotland...
> Yes, I'm Polish, I moved to Scotland nearly 5 years ago


Fife animal feeds delivers around Scotland. However, the big issue for them is that they supply the DAF minces as their minces 'base' so to speak. Now, whilst this isn't an issue in the surface I know there is still some umm'ing and ahh'ing over EXACTLY what ratio their minces run off- although as long as you feed a variety of their minces, or just use the odd mince then it should be fine.

Natural instinct, Darlings and raw to go all ship their products in the mail so should supply to Scotland too. Fife delivers once a week, so you do need to order in advance, but the guy who runs it is lovely and is always happy to answer any questions you may have!


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## billybarney

Thanks for the advice Jasper's Bloke. 
It's so good to be able to put a question out and get such a great answer.
So i will only feed the dogs chicken for a week from today if i give them thighs,wings (holding them ) ,breast,chicken mince if i manage to find some what about chicken liver should i hold off on them ??? I bought the half a chicken in Morissions this morning is that too much ? Would it be classed as one meal ? 
The greyhound is putting weight back on already so i am a very happy bunny .
Thanks again


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## Malmum

Just wanted to post this link on why you should always freeze beef before feeding it to your dog. It's not meant to scare you but give information as to why you need to freeze it for at least 24 hours before feeding.

An Overview of Neospora Canium and Raw Food Diets

A case of a dog infected by Neopspora Canium through feeding fresh raw beef. 
The Anti-Docking Alliance Web Site in the UK neosporosis

I have fed raw beef for years with no ill effect but always freeze it first. Pork, on the other hand is quite safe as long as it's home produced as we don't have the Trichinosis parasite in the UK. If in any doubt always freeze pork too but if supplied by your butcher and produced in the UK, there should be no problem with pork at all!


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## Souris

billybarney said:


> Thanks for the advice Jasper's Bloke.
> It's so good to be able to put a question out and get such a great answer.
> So i will only feed the dogs chicken for a week from today if i give them thighs,wings (holding them ) ,breast,chicken mince if i manage to find some what about chicken liver should i hold off on them ??? I bought the half a chicken in Morissions this morning is that too much ? Would it be classed as one meal ?
> The greyhound is putting weight back on already so i am a very happy bunny .
> Thanks again


How much does your greyhound weigh? (His ideal adult weight that is.) Take whatever that is and find 3% (you normally go for 2.5%, but if you're edging for weight gain I'd go for 3% for now and then lower back if needs be later on): so for example say your greyhound was 30kg, 3% of that would be 900g a day (working on 1% being 300g) to feed. Half a chicken would be too much for my boy, but it sounds about right for a greyhound.

Hope that helps!


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## billybarney

Hi 
Sugar should weigh 28 kg . What i really need to know is if the following is a ok meal not very good with maths  for one meal i have been giving her 2 chicken breast, 1 chicken thigh, and was giving her a handfull of beef mince but seeing as this seems to have upset her tummy am trying to find a supermarket that supplies chicken mince but not having much luck any ideas anyone 
i know i need to give her some offal too so i have some chicken liver in the freezer but was gonna wait till her tummy settled down before starting on them .


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## Jasper's Bloke

28kg works out to 700g of food per day for an average dog at their ideal weight. Working or very active dogs may require more, those on limited exercise or who are over their ideal weight would need less. 

If she has an upset tum then it is best to keep things as simple as possible until it clears, liver will certainly not help, especially if she is unaccustomed to it.


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## billybarney

thanks again Jaspers Bloke we will stick to the chicken for a while then and see how it goes form there


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## babycham2002

Turkey drumstick from asda, £1.61 nice treat for her but nothing else for her to eat that day


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## rawdogs

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Interesting point, I had not heard that before. Will have to investigate.
> 
> Incidentally I notice that you are in Walsall, not a million miles from me (Halesowen), can I ask where you get your supplies from?


For wings backs and minces including tripe i order from

T.P.M.S. Pet Food Specialists - Tripe - www.thedogsdinner.com


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## Jasper's Bloke

rawdogs said:


> For wings backs and minces including tripe i order from
> 
> T.P.M.S. Pet Food Specialists - Tripe - www.thedogsdinner.com


Thanks, I have looked at tpms before and their prices seem good, but they have a minimum delivery of 120lbs and there is no way I could store that. I might look at taking a trip down there once a month, about 40 minutes away from me.


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## frankeshelman

Thank you so much for the basics. This will be helpful for people I talk to about BARF Diets and which dog foods are the best. I always first recommend BARF Diet over dry kibble, but it freaks so many people out. Isn't it weird how the main stream feels about dog food? Like dogs always ate kibble and anything else would be crazy.


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## billybarney

oh dear me thinks i have been feeding too much bone.Yesterday morning Sugar had 2 chicken breasts and 2 chicken thighs, for dinner she had half a chicken 
i know your all gonna tell me its too much so i thought i would just give her chicken breast for the rest of the weekend .Is this the right thing to do


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## Jasper's Bloke

billybarney said:


> oh dear me thinks i have been feeding too much bone.Yesterday morning Sugar had 2 chicken breasts and 2 chicken thighs, for dinner she had half a chicken
> i know your all gonna tell me its too much so i thought i would just give her chicken breast for the rest of the weekend .Is this the right thing to do


I would yes, you could also try her with a little liver to ease the passing as it were. Bone makes for nice firm poo's but if you overdo it, then they can be difficult to pass, even to the point of causing constipation or in extreme cases impaction. Liver (or any offal) has the opposite effect which is why it is recommended to feed 10% of each.

Bone is the absolute best source of calcium that there is while offal is rich in potassium and other essential minerals, but as ever, the key is striking a balance between the two.

Whilst there is no doubt that the raw diet is the healthiest way to feed a dog I am still not convinced that the obsessive fascination with dog poo that comes with it is entirely healthy!


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## rawdogs

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Thanks, I have looked at tpms before and their prices seem good, but they have a minimum delivery of 120lbs and there is no way I could store that. I might look at taking a trip down there once a month, about 40 minutes away from me.


Give them a ring and ask,my last delivery was 40lb of mince and 25lb of wings.


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## billybarney

Whilst there is no doubt that the raw diet is the healthiest way to feed a dog I am still not convinced that the obsessive fascination with dog poo that comes with it is entirely healthy![/QUOTE] 

that made me laugh sooo much its amazing how we all watch the other end so much 
Well her bowl movements seems to be getting back to normal now so i will give her some chicken liver today only a small bit tho .Then maybe 1 thigh a day starting middle of next week .
When you first look at this diet its very hard to get to grips with and it seems everyone at some point goes a bit crazy and adds some of everything then you have to go right back to the beginning and start again lol.
Sugar is still gaining weight and she coat is super shiny.Thanks for the advice :001_smile:


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## billybarney

well Sugar has a upset tummy again me thinks that maybe she isnt cut out for this diet  Have been feeding her just on chicken and its not getting any better does anyone have a idea as to what i should do .i did use to give them veggies that i had put through the blender but not sure if i should carry on with these or not help


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## Jasper's Bloke

billybarney said:


> well Sugar has a upset tummy again me thinks that maybe she isnt cut out for this diet  Have been feeding her just on chicken and its not getting any better does anyone have a idea as to what i should do .i did use to give them veggies that i had put through the blender but not sure if i should carry on with these or not help


I think you should give it a little more time as it has only been a day or two and even though you have started to see some of the benefits, her digestive system may well still be adjusting itself.

Are you still feeding the veg? If you cut out everything else from her diet and feed nothing but chicken and the problem goes away then you have your answer. If the problem persists then the chicken may be the culprit. It is possible that chicken isn't for her, it's not uncommon.

I would give it another day or two and then if there is no improvement switch to a different meat source.


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## billybarney

thank you 
I did ring the guy from The Dog Food Company for advice too and he said maybe i am giving her to much protein as she is only having chicken breast so will add a little mince and see how things go from there.


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## cinnamontoast

Mine were all a bit icky the first few days/week. I persisted and stuck to one main meat and it all firmed up and started looking 'proper'.

PMSL at Japser's Bloke and his obsession with poo comment-so true! I know I've overfed bone this week, having just poo picked in the garden.


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## judetheobscure

I think I'm getting overwhelmed with info here  Although it's a great thread so thank you for stickying it 

My dog has big digestive issues so I'm switching her to raw to give it a try.

She's been on cooked meats (ostrich, beef, pork, lamb) and potatoes for several months now with varying degrees of success.

I bought a couple of packs of Prize Choice beef and put about 1/3 in with her usual cooked beef and potatoes but now I've read I shouldn't mix raw with other foods I should just switch her straight over?

I also don't have time to stand over and watch her eating her food every time. But I hesitate to feed her mince quality items all the time. Is there some way I can get the required bone amount, give her teeth/jaws a good work out but not have to watch her eat?

When the food companies say liver they don't always say from which animal. I really would like her offal content to be beef initially. Can anyone point me in the direction of a supplier who supplies/specifies beef offal? I'm in the south-east.


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## Jasper's Bloke

Is there a specific reason why you want to feed beef particularly? It sounds like the majority of the meats you have been feeding are red meat and perhaps that may have something to do with the tummy troubles. Have you tried chicken?

Personally I would go the whole hog and switch purely to raw, if only to identify exactly what is causing the problem. If you are feeding many different types of meat, both cooked and raw, then there are too many variables to allow you to nail down the source of the upset. The culprit is either going to be one specific food or a combination of foods, so a simple case of trial and error with a simple, single source diet could well reveal the answer. If for example you were to feed just chicken for a week and the problem improved then you would know that chicken was OK. If you then add subsequent meats one at a time and the problem comes back then you will know what to avoid.


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## Nicky10

I would switch her to one meat only have her on that for a few weeks until you're sure it's not that and then add other meats slowly. I would only feed raw but that's your choice. It's easier as you can only feed them raw bones never cooked.


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## judetheobscure

We've done the single source diet but cooked up until now. I have another thread on it somewhere - will go and find it in a mo  It's here: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/155510-food-intolerance-something-else.html

Beef I know she tolerates (or has done in the past) which is why I am starting there.

I switched her onto all raw at the weekend, no bone as yet, her no.2s are rather black and sludgy but compared to some of her previous "outputs" that is highly desireable


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## judetheobscure

Me again.

Trying to find a supplier of beef or lamb or pork with bone in - I presume unless you buy it on the bone it's ground up? I've looked at Berrieswood, Landywood etc. and can find poultry with bone in but I want to stay away from poultry a bit longer as that's one of our main possible causes of Bella's problems.


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## dvnbiker

rawtogo have bone in all of their minces 10%


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## judetheobscure

Thank you


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## DirtyGertie

I am gradually introducing Poppy to raw but because I have a case of Naturediet to use up I have been doing 2 days raw, 2 days ND. We've had four lots of 2 days on/2 days off and up to now she's had chicken wing/breast fillet/drumstick/thigh and one portion of Prize Choice chicken mince 'cos that's all we could get. She's also had tinned mackerel, tinned sardines and a raw egg - the fish was already in her diet before starting raw so I knew there was no problem with it. From today I'm increasing it to 3 days raw/2 days ND. I have to do 2 days ND as the pack lasts her for four meals.

I'm going to do a Raw2Go order very soon now I've found some freezer space so that hubby can do that for brekkie (he gets up first!), he's not into holding bones for her while she gets used to them. I like the fact that we can use a convenience meal that has the right ratio and there's plenty of variety which I can introduce over time. This doesn't work out any more expensive than what we were paying for commercial even taking postage into account. She wont have it all the time, possibly 5 times a week, the rest of the meals will be of the chicken meaty bone type for now.

I'm still holding her boney meals as although she takes is steady when I'm holding them she does still tend to gobble a rather large mouthful without chewing if I let it go.

I've read through this thread and others about raw feeding so I've worked out what I want to do and amounts. Poppy is a Bichon and needs approx 180gms per day. She's fed twice a day.

A couple of the chicken portions I have are leg quarters and they are quite large, weighing probably about 250gms or more. What do I do in this instance as it is far more than her daily allowance and I wouldn't want to give her more than 100gms for one of her meals.

Hubby took a bit of persuading to try raw but he is impressed with the way Poppy waits at your feet when getting the raw food ready but needs to be called for her commercial food although she does eat and enjoy it and clears her bowl. When I mentioned chicken necks to him he was "What! Oh, there are too many small bones in that". To be honest, I've never seen a chicken neck so can someone persuade him that this would be alright, or would turkey neck be better? He is now OK with the wings/drumsticks/thighs now he's seen her eat those and I think he would rather stick to those.


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## Jasper's Bloke

Yes necks do have small bones in them, but so do wings, so if you have already been feeding them happily, you shouldn't have a problem. If you come across necks then by all means give them a try, but wings are easier to get hold of and probably have the same amount of meat/bone.

If you have portions that are too big then you can either divide them, a leg quarter for instance can easily be split into a drumstick and a thigh, or you can always over feed one day and then compensate for it the following day. If your dog was feeding itself from what it could find or catch then it wouldn't be having consistent portions every day, in fact it probably wouldn't even be eating every day. Some people even mirror this behaviour by feeding, for example, seven days food over six days, followed by a day of fasting. If you are confident that Poppy is getting sufficient food over the course of the week then daily variations shouldn't have any impact.


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## dogloverdi

Thanks @katiefranke for the post! Awesome initiative! I'm also a big fan of raw dog food, as you can clearly see from my site: Feed My Dog 101 - The Most Effective Dog Food Guide. I have written several articles on raw dog food and raw dog food recipes. I am also trying to put my dogs on a raw diet (my Samoyed and Yorkie). However, I find it a bit scary and I am not used to feeding raw yet. 
For the moment, I cook for them; usually boiled meat (chicken mostly) and steamed vegetables. 
Thanks again for the post!
Regards


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## dvnbiker

Well have hit our first bout of illness on the raw diet. My 7 year old wsd has had colitis today - well the usual mucus sign on poo was there tonight. They had venison for the first time yesterday and I am wondering whether it could be caused by that in that he can't tolerate it and I need to keep it out of his diet. 

Can anyone tell me if I am likely to be right on my assumption? He is a funny chap in that he will convince himself he is going to be sick and swallow over and over again, as soon as you let him out he eats grass like its prime roast beef. He has done this twice in the past 24 hours and as the venison is the only thing that they have had different its the only thing I can think of. 

They have had lamb today and tomorrow is duck so I shall see how he goes on. He clearly does have a sensitive stomach and wondering if it is ok to give him a tablespoon of probiotic yoghurt everyday just keep his stomach settled. 

Sorry for the long post. :tongue_smilie:


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## LexiLou2

I've being giving Lexi a spoon full of probiotic every day and it seems to have really helped, i expected issues trying her on new foods and we've had none and i really think the probiotic has helped.


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## billybarney

Happy easter people.
I have a question  should i be giving my dogs fruit and veg with their raw food diet ?
whilst having a look round a few different site most of them seem to suggest the vegs, mine were having them but i thought they didnt need them so i stopped . Also when working out how much muscle,bone,offal etc i just wondered does mince come under muscle ? I have found a great chicken wholesale place just up the road from me and they gave me a huge box of chicken wing tips,legs,carcus,bones for a tenner so would all that be classed as bone ?


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## DirtyGertie

billybarney said:


> Happy easter people.
> I have a question  should i be giving my dogs fruit and veg with their raw food diet ? whilst having a look round a few different site most of them seem to suggest the vegs, mine were having them but i thought they didnt need them so i stopped .


You can give fruit and veg if you like, they don't NEED them but some dogs like them and they can bulk a meal out. I blend my veggies in my food processor - as per *this post*



> Also when working out how much muscle,bone,offal etc i just wondered does mince come under muscle ?


As far as I am aware mince would be classed as muscle meat unless you get it from somewhere like Raw To Go who state that their mince is 80% meat, 10% offal, 10% bone so you'd assume as the offal is listed separately then the 80% meat would be muscle meat.



> I have found a great chicken wholesale place just up the road from me and they gave me a huge box of chicken wing tips,legs,carcus,bones for a tenner so would all that be classed as bone ?


I feed drumsticks/wings/thighs as the raw meaty bone part of my dog's diet, what you've listed could be classed as bone. What breed is your dog? Be careful with the chicken wing tips. Chicken wings are really for smaller dogs, I have a Bichon and she has these:


----------



## wilchil64

Can I just ask where you buy your raw food and what do you buy? 

Is there no worry with bones in raw chicken? (for a small dog like a cavalier?)

Thanks.


----------



## DirtyGertie

wilchil64 said:


> Can I just ask where you buy your raw food and what do you buy?
> 
> Is there no worry with bones in raw chicken? (for a small dog like a cavalier?)
> 
> Thanks.


I've just had a delivery from *Raw To Go*. I like the fact that their mince is balanced with 80% meat/10% bone/10% offal. I bought chicken; chicken and tripe; duck; rabbit; turkey; lamb. I asked for venison but it is out of season. She wont be having mince for every meal, probably breakfast then for tea will have raw meaty bones or tinned mackerel or sardines and maybe some chicken chunks occasionally.

If you're just starting out start with chicken only for a couple of weeks then gradually add one new flavour a week.

There's also *Berriewoods*; *Landywoods*; *Prize Choice*; *TPMS*. I can't vouch for any of these and you'd need to check if they can deliver to your area.

There may be others mentioned in other posts in this thread. There is always the supermarket and butcher.

Raw chicken bones generally pose no problem, they are classed as soft bones (although they don't sound it when the dog is crunching it!). It's cooked bones that are a problem as they splinter. You can start out by holding the drumstick/wing/etc at first so the dog learns how to slowly eat it rather than gulp. I'm still holding Poppy's after four weeks and when it gets too small to hold (and too near my fingers) I get OH to bash them with a hammer to break up so she can't swallow a big piece.

If you go through the thread from the beginning there will be links to raw feeding sites that might be worth you checking out.


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## wilchil64

Thanks, I'll read through everything.

I know they stock Prize Choice at Jollyes which is just down the road from us. But I thought most of their stuff was minced raw meat - is that ok to feed too? 

I have raw food delivered in the past from a company recommended on petforums that since closed and when it arrived most of it was defrosted and I couldn't feed it to my cats fast enough before it needed throwing away.I gave up after that!

So, does anyone feed Prize Choice and would it need supplementing with anything?

My Cavalier has very itchy ears and the vet has mentioned this could be due to food allergies. Before I start working my way through different brands of (expensive) food, I thought I'd look into raw food again (last time I considered this I was feeding it to my cat, haven't tried it for my dog yet). My problem is limited storage as I only have a small freezer and small fridge, but if I can buy it locally it wouldn't be as much of a problem.


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## LexiLou2

I can vouch for raw to go, they pack the food up very very well when mine arrived it was still very frozen.


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## DirtyGertie

wilchil64 said:


> Thanks, I'll read through everything.
> 
> I know they stock Prize Choice at Jollyes which is just down the road from us. But I thought most of their stuff was minced raw meat - is that ok to feed too?
> 
> So, does anyone feed Prize Choice and would it need supplementing with anything?
> 
> My Cavalier has very itchy ears and the vet has mentioned this could be due to food allergies. Before I start working my way through different brands of (expensive) food, I thought I'd look into raw food again (last time I considered this I was feeding it to my cat, haven't tried it for my dog yet). My problem is limited storage as I only have a small freezer and small fridge, but if I can buy it locally it wouldn't be as much of a problem.


I bought one pack of Prize Choice chicken mince when I first started going over to raw. Poppy ate it no problem but to be honest after I saw the Raw to Go mince I don't think the Prize Choice is as nice. I have a picture *here on another thread* of the Raw to go mince.

I checked the ingredients on Prize Choice website and it does mention only meat, no bone or offal although it does say _Products may contain small bone pieces - 4g/100g may be present_ which is not an assurance that it does actually contain bone and certainly not the 10% needed to be the right balance. So you would need to make sure you get 10% bone and 10% offal as well as the Prize Choice.

I was very impressed with Raw to Go's delivery. It's sent by courier so arrives the day after pick up and it came very well packed in insulated boxes and was all still frozen when it arrived. However, if you don't have much freezer space then I would contact them to see what their minimum order is and how much delivery would be.

Have you tried Thornit for your dog's itchy ears? Poppy had the most awful stinky, brown gunky ears when we first got her, vet gave us some Surolan, made no real difference and after the second course I didn't want to continue as it's a steroid ear drop and by now she got to the stage where she hated drops being put in her ears. I tried Pet Nats which helped (and smelled lovely) but didn't clear it up completely. I then got Thornit, one application and 2 or 3 days later her ears were lovely and clean and no more digging around inside them! They're still lovely and clean 2 months later. Bichons have hairy ears inside which need plucking (groomer does that). Do Cavs have hairy ears too? Dogs with floppy ears tend to get ear problems because the air can't get to them to keep them dry inside.


----------



## wilchil64

Thanks for your replies.

I think if the Prize Choice does not contain the bone they need and I have to start going to butchers etc, I'll end up with a fridge full of meat anyway, so it's not going to be an option really. It also would work out quite expensive that way. Also it looks like the minimum order for courier delivery is 40 packs which I definitely cannot store. And the courier delivery price is quite high I think.

I'll try a grain free kibble with some Natures Diet and see if she improves.

I've been posting on another thread about Ruby's ears. We've used Quistel and it cleared up the itchiness very quickly. Unfortunately I had run out and the itching came back on Good Friday so I'm having to wait for my order to be dispatched tomorrow, hoping it will arrive Wednesday. I've also ordered some Thornits to try. We originally had Surolan from the vet also which didn't seem to help much and I also was worried about continually giving he rmedication. I prefer to give her natural products.

Yes Ruby's ears are quite hairy, I've trimmed them lots but don't know what difference that will make if any. She's going for a hair cut soon anyway, so I'll ask about plucking.

Thanks for your advice. I will keep searching for a local raw food provider (I'm in North Yorkshire) and will read through the thread.


----------



## billybarney

in answer to your question i have a greyhound that weights about 27/28 kg and a springer who weighs about 16kg .
Whilst as i say they have been on raw a few months i dont feel i am feeding them as well as i could. for instance this morning they had beef mince with some chicken wings. They both chew the chicken wings.The greyhound had lot of teeth taken out within the first 3 months of me having her so she has to chew it well but her teeth are so brilliant white now you need sun glasses when she smiles .
I am going to do a order with rawtogo but have no idea how much of everything i need any advice would be great ....My maths isnt brilliant but between me and hubby we worked out the greyhound needs 837g a meal split into two mean 419g per meal so 335 0z muscle meat 84oz of bone 42ox of offal is that right ?
The springer is 450g so 225g per meal 315oz muscle meat 45g bone 45g offal.
i find this bit really hard to try to measure out enough varied food for the meal arghhhhhhh


----------



## DirtyGertie

wilchil64 said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> 
> I think if the Prize Choice does not contain the bone they need and I have to start going to butchers etc, I'll end up with a fridge full of meat anyway, so it's not going to be an option really. It also would work out quite expensive that way. Also it looks like the minimum order for courier delivery is 40 packs which I definitely cannot store. And the courier delivery price is quite high I think.
> 
> I'll try a grain free kibble with some Natures Diet and see if she improves.
> 
> I've been posting on another thread about Ruby's ears. We've used Quistel and it cleared up the itchiness very quickly. Unfortunately I had run out and the itching came back on Good Friday so I'm having to wait for my order to be dispatched tomorrow, hoping it will arrive Wednesday. I've also ordered some Thornits to try. We originally had Surolan from the vet also which didn't seem to help much and I also was worried about continually giving he rmedication. I prefer to give her natural products.
> 
> Yes Ruby's ears are quite hairy, I've trimmed them lots but don't know what difference that will make if any. She's going for a hair cut soon anyway, so I'll ask about plucking.
> 
> Thanks for your advice. I will keep searching for a local raw food provider (I'm in North Yorkshire) and will read through the thread.


I thought Raw To Go was going to be expensive, especially when you see the delivery charges. I worked out the most economical for delivery and it was the 55 packs (looks like they've changed it to 50 packs now) and it added approx 20p to the cost of each pack of meat. Poppy is 5kg so needs approx 180g of meat per day. With the cost of my order, taking into account the different prices for the different meats, plus delivery costs, I can feed Poppy for an average of 18p per meal of Raw to Go, then there is the wings/drumsticks/thighs which I get when on offer at the supermarket, Lidl, etc.

I was paying 72p per tray of Naturediet and each meal was 1/4 of a tray plus some Burns Mini Bites, so it's working out a bit cheaper feeding raw even with delivery taken into account.

With the hairy ears, they need to be plucked to clear the hair out deep down. Trimming still leaves the hair further down. Plucking is something I couldn't bring myself to do so the groomer does it for me then Poppy can think she's the nasty lady . Actually, she's very good. The groomer just built it up gradually, just a little bit to start with to get her used to it and now she's fine. It's amazing how much hair comes out . When I first saw it I realised how her ears had managed to get so gunky in the first place!


----------



## wilchil64

DirtyGertie said:


> I thought Raw To Go was going to be expensive, especially when you see the delivery charges. I worked out the most economical for delivery and it was the 55 packs (looks like they've changed it to 50 packs now) and it added approx 20p to the cost of each pack of meat. Poppy is 5kg so needs approx 180g of meat per day. With the cost of my order, taking into account the different prices for the different meats, plus delivery costs, I can feed Poppy for an average of 18p per meal of Raw to Go, then there is the wings/drumsticks/thighs which I get when on offer at the supermarket, Lidl, etc.
> I was paying 72p per tray of Naturediet and each meal was 1/4 of a tray plus some Burns Mini Bites, so it's working out a bit cheaper feeding raw even with delivery taken into account.
> With the hairy ears, they need to be plucked to clear the hair out deep down. Trimming still leaves the hair further down. Plucking is something I couldn't bring myself to do so the groomer does it for me then Poppy can think she's the nasty lady . Actually, she's very good. The groomer just built it up gradually, just a little bit to start with to get her used to it and now she's fine. It's amazing how much hair comes out . When I first saw it I realised how her ears had managed to get so gunky in the first place!


Unfortunately I can't store that amount of frozen food, so 50 packs, or even 40 packs is no good for me. I need to be able to buy individual packs, realistically I can't store more than half a freezer drawer full of dog food. However, I do want them to be as complete as possible. I haven't got the confidence or time to be weighing out bits of bone, adding extras in. Sorry if some people on here don't approve of that, but I have to be realistic and know what I can stick to. I know the only way I'll feed raw is if it is convenient and ready to feed, which I'd hoped Prize Choice would be.


----------



## DirtyGertie

billybarney said:


> in answer to your question i have a greyhound that weights about 27/28 kg and a springer who weighs about 16kg .
> Whilst as i say they have been on raw a few months i dont feel i am feeding them as well as i could. for instance this morning they had beef mince with some chicken wings. They both chew the chicken wings.The greyhound had lot of teeth taken out within the first 3 months of me having her so she has to chew it well but her teeth are so brilliant white now you need sun glasses when she smiles .
> I am going to do a order with rawtogo but have no idea how much of everything i need any advice would be great ....My maths isnt brilliant but between me and hubby we worked out the greyhound needs 837g a meal split into two mean 419g per meal so 335 0z muscle meat 84oz of bone 42ox of offal is that right ?
> The springer is 450g so 225g per meal 315oz muscle meat 45g bone 45g offal.
> i find this bit really hard to try to measure out enough varied food for the meal arghhhhhhh


It's quite confusing at first with the amounts needed. It took me weeks of reading about raw diet before I got my head round it! So working on 3%:

Your greyhound is, say 28kg so 3% of that is 840g divided into two meals = 420g per meal. 10% bone = 42g; 10% offal = 42g, leaving 336g meat. Don't confuse oz with gms :001_smile:.

Your springer is 16kg, 3% of that is 480g, two meals of 240g each. 10%bone = 24g; 10% offal = 24g, leaving 192g of meat per meal.

So you and hubby did the maths fine! If 3% is too much then just lower it slightly until you feel their weights are right for them, you need to feel their ribs without them looking skinny, and you should be able to see a waist.

However, it doesn't have to be that exact per day. It can be worked out over a week so you could have a bit less of one thing one day but make it up later in the week. I'm sure that's explained better somewhere else in the thread .

(This is why I've gone for Raw To Go for approx half of Poppy's meals, it gives me peace of mind that she's getting the right balance for her brekkies, then I can vary her tea with chicken/turkey/fish/raw meaty bones).

Take a look at LexiLou's brilliant post *here* which shows how she's worked out a great variety of different food for her dog.


----------



## DirtyGertie

wilchil64 said:


> Unfortunately I can't store that amount of frozen food, so 50 packs, or even 40 packs is no good for me. I need to be able to buy individual packs, realistically I can't store more than half a freezer drawer full of dog food. However, I do want them to be as complete as possible. *I haven't got the confidence or time to be weighing out bits of bone, adding extras in. * Sorry if some people on here don't approve of that, but I have to be realistic and know what I can stick to. I know the only way I'll feed raw is if it is convenient and ready to feed, which I'd hoped Prize Choice would be.


That's understandable. I'm the same, that's why I chose Raw To Go for about half her meals, and being an almost vegetarian I can just about manage the minces, I don't think I would be able to mess about with the offal - hubby would have to do that . You have to do what is right for you and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. And if you don't have enough freezer space then you just get what you can manage to store. Maybe get a good quality commercial, some raw and some raw meaty bones. Just don't give the commercial and raw in the same meal, best to have raw only days then commercial only days.


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## mooremooremoore

Thank u for putting all this in writing. I am a beginner of feeding raw food and have found this very useful. I have a 5month old Bull Terrier, and although I feed him very good food at the moment, I would like to get him onto a mainly raw diet. I have just bought Give your dog a bone and the BARF diet by DR Ian Billinghurst, which I have just started reading...any tips or advice for beginning would be much appreciated though


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## GoldenShadow

wilchil64 said:


> Unfortunately I can't store that amount of frozen food, so 50 packs, or even 40 packs is no good for me. I need to be able to buy individual packs, realistically I can't store more than half a freezer drawer full of dog food. However, I do want them to be as complete as possible. I haven't got the confidence or time to be weighing out bits of bone, adding extras in. Sorry if some people on here don't approve of that, but I have to be realistic and know what I can stick to. I know the only way I'll feed raw is if it is convenient and ready to feed, which I'd hoped Prize Choice would be.


I'm not sure if you've said but could you do one day raw one day kibble/wet whatever you give now? Lots of people on here part raw feed and it doesn't matter as much if you aren't as accurate I don't think.

Not sure how big your dog is but I reckon you could do it relatively easy on half a drawer its just not going to be hugely cheap I don't think.

I looked into Prize Choice but feel its quite heavily commercialised and was a bit in doubt of trusting it which is why I'll be ordering from The Dog Food Company and using their minces etc.

I was only going to part raw feed as the max space I had was one freezer drawer. Round here I found it really hard to get anything like chicken wings/drumsticks cheap and the butcher's wings come frozen so one defrosted need to be fed or binned wasting loads of them (can't separate them as they're frozen so the whole lot has to be done). Luckily my Mum agreed to let me get a freezer and keep it outside/in the shed once we get electricity down there and I picked an old freezer up yesterday for £25. Not turned it on yet but fingers crossed it'll work OK.

I'm not hugely familiar with what is in Prize Choice but I'm sure you could give some of that and just throw in the odd drumstick/liver/kidney if you were to feed part raw?


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## wilchil64

Thanks for the tip re. feeding part raw.

I have at the moment got rid of the Caesars wet food I was mixing a little of in with her complete kibble and am now gradually changing her to a sensitive kibble with salmon and potato, no grain. I have also had her claws cut and put some ear drops in. Huge improvement! No more itching at present. I will get hold of some Prize Choice mince and try her with a little to see how she likes it and maybe try initially for one day a week on that. I've also got rid of all treats (Bonios etc) and now just give a tiny bit of cheese or throw a small handful of her kibble instead.


----------



## GoldenShadow

wilchil64 said:


> Thanks for the tip re. feeding part raw.
> 
> I have at the moment got rid of the Caesars wet food I was mixing a little of in with her complete kibble and am now gradually changing her to a sensitive kibble with salmon and potato, no grain. I have also had her claws cut and put some ear drops in. Huge improvement! No more itching at present. I will get hold of some Prize Choice mince and try her with a little to see how she likes it and maybe try initially for one day a week on that. I've also got rid of all treats (Bonios etc) and now just give a tiny bit of cheese or throw a small handful of her kibble instead.


Oh bless her sounds like she has foody problems like my golden  Grain free kibble is a really good idea and glad her ears are sounding good! Its funny my golden seemed allergic to something like pollen as every summer his ears would flair up every few weeks and he'd need steroid shots to bring them down. We moved house three hours away and so far his ears haven't flaired up at all, not changed his diet or anything (he's had two ear infections since being here but not an allergic reaction which is different to infection) 

Hopefully she'll do better really soon. Some people give raw in the morning kibble etc at night time but others prefer to do raw a whole day and kibble etc on separate days. Some think that if you feed raw and kibble close together the kibble taking longer to break down means the raw is in the belly longer giving it more chance for bacteria to cause problems. I don't know what statistics are of increased problems like that or if there even are any but I think raw in the morning kibble etc at night is better than vice versa and raw one whole day kibble other whole days probably even better


----------



## babycham2002

Willow enjoying a lamb breast.
I will take it off her about halfway through and give it back to her tomorrow


----------



## joanna1984

Hello,

I have been reading the thread on raw feeding and am wanting to swap my dog onto it. He is a super fussy eater but put meat in front of him and its gone! I have been reading a bit at the end about people getting stuff from Raw To Go and whas wondering if it was any good? Also this might sound like a stupid question but is the minced meat got minced up bones in or do you have to feed those separatley. 

I'm really up for swapping him over but im so worried im going to do it all wrong and hes not going to get what he needs. 

Also, i have worked out that he would get 175g of meat/bone/offal per day, is this right? He is a small terrier mixed mutt weighing between 6.8 and 7kg. I know you are supposed to feed 10% ish bone, 10% ish offal and 80% ish meat but does it matter what meat, what offal and which bones? Its so confusing.

Sorry to go on but any help would be very much appreciated.

Thanks
Jo


----------



## DirtyGertie

joanna1984 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have been reading the thread on raw feeding and am wanting to swap my dog onto it. He is a super fussy eater but put meat in front of him and its gone! I have been reading a bit at the end about people getting stuff from Raw To Go and whas wondering if it was any good? Also this might sound like a stupid question but is the minced meat got minced up bones in or do you have to feed those separatley.
> 
> I'm really up for swapping him over but im so worried im going to do it all wrong and hes not going to get what he needs.
> 
> Also, i have worked out that he would get 175g of meat/bone/offal per day, is this right? He is a small terrier mixed mutt weighing between 6.8 and 7kg. I know you are supposed to feed 10% ish bone, 10% ish offal and 80% ish meat but does it matter what meat, what offal and which bones? Its so confusing.
> 
> Sorry to go on but any help would be very much appreciated.
> 
> Thanks
> Jo


If he's 7kg and he has between 2% and 3% of his body weight that would be between 140g and 210g. Is 7kg the ideal adult weight for his breed as that's what you should work on. You could start at the midway point, 175g as you say and then vary it up or down depending on if he gains/loses weight or stays the same.

Doesn't matter which meat as long as your dog can tolerate it (some can't tolerate pork or beef) but only introduce one new meat per week to see if it suits them.

Of the 10% offal, half of that should be liver, the other half can be other offal - kidney, lungs, etc.

Bones - people generally use chicken wings/drumsticks/carcasses, lamb ribs, pork ribs. Hold onto the bones the first time (I still hold onto Poppy's at 6 weeks in) to make sure he doesn't gobble too big a piece. Weight bearing bones are not a good idea.

I have Raw To Go minces and am very pleased with them and the service is also very good. They do contain the 80/10/10 ratio so the bone and offal is there in the mince.

I feed Poppy RTG mince for brekkie and chicken wings/drumstick/thigh for tea on 3 or 4 nights per week, the other nights I feed sardines or mackerel (fish once a week) and some chicken chunks. I have some heart in the freezer which I shall introduce further on, heart is classed as a muscle meat not offal.

I was full of questions and doubt to start with but you soon get into it once you start. Just keep asking questions.

I also use the blended veg which is in Sleeping Lion's post on the first page of this thread.


----------



## billybarney

Hi i am using Rawtogo just had my first delivery couple of weeks ago.Am very impressed with the mince's and the service is great will be using them again when i run low.
I do however have a question if the mince's have the correct mix of bone and offal does it not give them too much it you feed them chicken wings /legs ? At the min my dogs are having a bag of mince each in the morning with pro yougout and half a bag of mince each in the evening lighter meal of the day. I would like to give them legs/wings/fish in the evening as this is always their As for the veggies i did use veg when i first started but it was pointed out to me many a time that it holds no value for the dog as they cant digest it properly but mine did seem to enjoy it but i feel when your on tight money it seems silly to be giving them something they dont really need.So i really dont know what to do for the best where the veggies are concerened .
.So how do you feed them a different meal every afternoon and how would you go about making sure they didnt get too much bone etc .If anyone could give me a little example menu i would ge really grateful .Thanks 
:001_smile:


----------



## GoldenShadow

billybarney said:


> Hi i am using Rawtogo just had my first delivery couple of weeks ago.Am very impressed with the mince's and the service is great will be using them again when i run low.
> I do however have a question if the mince's have the correct mix of bone and offal does it not give them too much it you feed them chicken wings /legs ? At the min my dogs are having a bag of mince each in the morning with pro yougout and half a bag of mince each in the evening lighter meal of the day. I would like to give them legs/wings/fish in the evening as this is always their As for the veggies i did use veg when i first started but it was pointed out to me many a time that it holds no value for the dog as they cant digest it properly but mine did seem to enjoy it but i feel when your on tight money it seems silly to be giving them something they dont really need.So i really dont know what to do for the best where the veggies are concerened .
> .So how do you feed them a different meal every afternoon and how would you go about making sure they didnt get too much bone etc .If anyone could give me a little example menu i would ge really grateful .Thanks
> :001_smile:


A lot of people end up feeding more than 10% bone I think 

My vague idea of what to feed Rupert (golden retriever, hoping my order will come next week) is some mince and veg in the morning, then some mince and veg at dinner with two chicken wings (sometimes replacing the chicken wings with pilchards, some lamb bone etc).

I've ordered some mince with bone and some without. People have said to me to try it out and if there is too much bone you can tell from their poop (someone will have to clarify how, I think its whitish when it comes out not when the sun has been on it? If too much bone is being fed).

I think most tend to do a meaty meal and a boney meal but I think its unique to each dog how much bone they get on with and you just have to experiment. I'm sure someone else on here will be along to answer your questions soon, otherwise maybe drop a private message to some of the people who you know feed Raw To Go on here? 

If you look at Sleeping Lion's Food Plan here, a lot of it does seem to be bone:



> Typical menu for my Labradors:
> 
> For adult Labs:
> 
> Monday
> Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses & 125g tinned sardines
> 
> Tuesday
> Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses
> 
> Wednesday
> Breakfast - 250-400g chicken carcasses, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 250g liver cooked in goats milk, 150g chicken carcasses
> 
> Thursday
> Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses
> 
> Friday
> Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses
> 
> Saturday
> Breakfast - 250-400g chicken carcasses, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 250g beef/lambs heart
> 
> Sunday
> Breakfast - 1lb green tripe, 40g blended veggies
> Tea - 300-400g chicken carcasses
> 
> Where ever I use chicken carcasses, I interchange with lamb bones as well. I also give other food regularly, such as a whole raw egg, cottage cheese, natural yoghurt, and any appropriate left overs. Mine aren't wheat intolerant, so anything like the odd bit of stale bread, left over pasta etc gets thrown their way, not that there's much in my house!


And Katiefranke's typical menu for her border collie:



> Week 1 -
> 
> Day 1
> Breakfast: turkey steak
> Dinner: skin-on duck leg & thigh quarter
> Day 2
> Breakfast: lump of pork meat
> Dinner: skin-on duck breast & wing quarter + a raw egg
> Day 3
> Breakfast: whole lambs heart
> Dinner: slab of meaty pork ribs + a small amount of kidney/pancreas/lungs
> Day 4
> Breakfast: lump of beef meat (usually brisket)
> Dinner: skin-on chicken breast & wing quarter
> Day 5
> Breakfast: chunks/strips of tripe + a raw egg (shell and all)
> Dinner: slab of lamb ribs
> Day 6
> Breakfast: turkey steak
> Dinner: skin-on chicken breast & wing quarter
> Day 7
> Breakfast: lump of beef meat
> Dinner: slab of meaty pork ribs + a small amount of lamb or ox liver
> 
> Week 2 -
> 
> Day 1
> Breakfast: piece of ox tongue
> Dinner: skin-on chicken leg & thigh quarter
> Day 2
> Breakfast: lump of pork meat + chunks of tripe
> Dinner: skin-on chicken breast & wing quarter + a raw egg (shell and all)
> Day 3
> Breakfast: ox heart
> Dinner: slab of meaty pork ribs + a small amount of kidney/pancreas/lungs
> Day 4
> Breakfast:
> Dinner: half a rabbit + a chicken liver
> Day 5
> Breakfast: chunks/strips of tripe + a raw egg (shell and all)
> Dinner: chicken carcass
> Day 6
> Breakfast: venison meat (special treat)
> Dinner: big turkey necks (quite boney meal as venison quite rich)
> Day 7
> Breakfast: a handful of sardines or other oily fish
> Dinner: slab of meaty pork ribs, plus a small amount of kidney/pancreas/lungs


----------



## dvnbiker

I also use the rawtogo minces as the mainstay of my three dogs diet but they have a boney meal 2-3 times a week, this will either be chicken carcusses, duck/chicken necks, lamb ribs or chicken quarters. This seems to suit the output well and we havent had any problems at all with this.


----------



## DirtyGertie

billybarney said:


> Hi i am using Rawtogo just had my first delivery couple of weeks ago.Am very impressed with the mince's and the service is great will be using them again when i run low.
> I do however have a question if the mince's have the correct mix of bone and offal does it not give them too much it you feed them chicken wings /legs ? At the min my dogs are having a bag of mince each in the morning with pro yougout and half a bag of mince each in the evening lighter meal of the day. I would like to give them legs/wings/fish in the evening as this is always their As for the veggies i did use veg when i first started but it was pointed out to me many a time that it holds no value for the dog as they cant digest it properly but mine did seem to enjoy it but i feel when your on tight money it seems silly to be giving them something they dont really need.So i really dont know what to do for the best where the veggies are concerened .
> .So how do you feed them a different meal every afternoon and how would you go about making sure they didnt get too much bone etc .If anyone could give me a little example menu i would ge really grateful .Thanks
> :001_smile:


You don't need to be giving an exact amount every day, look at it over a week, a fortnight or a month even. As long as they're getting the balance over that set length of time then you can give more or less at any time.

The 80:10:10 ratio is "roughly" so don't worry about it being too exact. Alter it to suit your dog. If poops are too hard then feed less bone, if poops too soft or runny feed more bone. As long as your pooch is passing firm poos OK then you've probably got the balance right. We've had one incident of Poppy straining to go and nothing would come out. She was straining for quite a long time and eventually passed a poop with a yelp. You don't want that!

Have you read this thread from the beginning? The first few posts are very informative so worth having a look if you haven't already.

Your dogs are obviously much bigger than mine as they're getting a whole bag of mince each in the morning, whereas Poppy gets 5 meals out of a bag. This makes me wonder whether you ought to be feeding wings? The recommendation in the first post is



> The size of the pieces should always be appropriate to the size of the dog and the bigger the better! For instance, I would not personally recommend feeding something like a chicken wing to anything larger than a small breed, as this could easily be inhaled and swallowed whole...instead a chicken breast and wing quarter or even a half chicken is much better for medium + breeds.


Having said that, Poppy's groomer has dalmations and she does give them wings but I think they have a lot of chicken carcasses. I know she does give them far more than the 10% in bone. Plus, if you supervise them eating bones to start with to make sure they don't gulp them down and they learn to take it slow then they probably are OK with wings.

My meal plan for Poppy, which is working well for her and we're getting the right sort of poops, is

Brekkie every day - RTG mince with some veggies most days. This is for convenience as my hubby does the brekkies and he was not keen to do raw to start with and shyed away from holding bones - in fact he was horrified at the thought of bones but he's quite impressed now .

Teatime 
Day 1 - Chicken wing
Day 2 - Chicken chunks
Day 3 - Chicken drumstick
Day 4 - Sardines or mackerel + veg + small egg with crushed shell
Day 5 - Chicken thigh
Day 6 - Chicken chunks
Day 7 - Either spare portion of mince (depends on whether I get 5 or 6 out of the pack) or chicken wing again.

I've only just gone on to 7 days a week as I was doing 5 days raw/2 days commercial before to use up some Naturediet. As I start introducing different kinds of meat there will be more variety. I have some heart in the freezer and I shall be getting some tripe too. At some stage I willl try lamb but it's still early days for me.

Veggies - it's up to you. It does seem that they get no nutritional value from them as they can't digest them but reading Sleeping Lion's post about veggies if they are blended in a food processor it breaks them down and if you add the nuts you're getting vits and mins as well. Before I started to feed raw I was giving Poppy lightly cooked veggie chunks so I decided to continue with the veggies but do the raw thing. It bulks the meal out, as you can imagine Poppy's meal is very small being a 5kg Bichon so she only has roughly 150g - 180g daily so one meal is tiny. I worried that it wasn't enough but that's just me! So it satisfied me to bulk it out with veggies and she likes them anyway. I make up a big batch then give her about a tablespoonful with a meal.

If your budget wont stretch then if you wanted to feed some veggies maybe look out for what's on offer at your local supermarket, Aldi and Lidl have some every week and they vary them.


----------



## joanna1984

Hi,

Thanks for the info. The only reason i ask is becuase i bought some frozen tripe from a pet shop once (and once only) and i thawed it out and it was like wet spongey loo roll and it smelt awful! Is this normal?
Could you thaw a pack out and keep it in the fridge for the next days meal too?

Also what treats does anyone suggest when they are on a raw diet?


Thanks
Jo


----------



## DirtyGertie

joanna1984 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the info. The only reason i ask is becuase i bought some frozen tripe from a pet shop once (and once only) and i thawed it out and it was like wet spongey loo roll and it smelt awful! Is this normal?
> Could you thaw a pack out and keep it in the fridge for the next days meal too?
> 
> Also what treats does anyone suggest when they are on a raw diet?
> 
> Thanks
> Jo


Tripe is awfully smelly. You could certainly keep it in the fridge for the next day's meal but I would make sure you wrap it VERY well as you don't want your whole fridge smelling of it.

I had chicken and tripe mix from Raw To Go, not had a pack of tripe only yet so can't say what it would be like if a block is defrosted. I saw a bag of small frozen tripe chunks in [email protected] yesterday and when I've got a bit of freezer space I'm going to get some and just get one chunk out to add to chicken chunks. Not sure if I will feed just tripe only for a meal, although many years ago we had a standard poodle and he came already on green tripe only as this is what the breeder used to feed. It was so long ago I don't remember much about it other than the smell!

Not sure about treats, Poppy doesn't really have them except for dried liver for training treats, which we do in the oven.


----------



## billybarney

thanks for all the advice and yes i have read most of the post's on this section but keep going over them every now and then .This the diet they had last week .all morning it was either chicken mince or chicken mince with tripe 3 evening meals were lamb 4 where meaty mix. so now here is the new menu i just wrote for them from today . all mince from raw to go 
Friday am beef/liver mince pm chicken carcus n veg
sat am turkey mince pm 2 x wings n veg 
sun am chicken mince pm tin sardines in tom sauce n veg 
mon am lamb mince pm 1 chicken breast n veg 
tue am chicken n tripe pm 2x thigh n veg 
wed am meaty mix pm ?
thur am chicken pm ? 
so is the new menu better then the first one ? 
I am trying really hard to give them a good mixture of everything but seem to keep getting it wrong . Getting really stressed by the whole thing as i think i am doing it right then find out i am not arghhhhhhhhh


----------



## DirtyGertie

billybarney said:


> thanks for all the advice and yes i have read most of the post's on this section but keep going over them every now and then .


That made me smile! I took days reading through this sticky, then kept going over it until it started to sink in. Took a while for me to be clear and think I understood it!



> This the diet they had last week .all morning it was either chicken mince or chicken mince with tripe 3 evening meals were lamb 4 where meaty mix. so now here is the new menu i just wrote for them from today . all mince from raw to go
> Friday am beef/liver mince pm chicken carcus n veg
> sat am turkey mince pm 2 x wings n veg
> sun am chicken mince pm tin sardines in tom sauce n veg
> mon am lamb mince pm 1 chicken breast n veg
> tue am chicken n tripe pm 2x thigh n veg
> wed am meaty mix pm ?
> thur am chicken pm ?
> so is the new menu better then the first one ?


That looks fine. How long have you been feeding raw? Sorry if it's already been mentioned, I'm really tired this morning and can't remember. The reason I ask is that you should really only introduce one new thing a week, just to see that they have no reaction to it. I introduced a bit of liver this week and Poppy was OK for the first day but yesterday one of her poos was soft and this morning she did a really soft one, normally they are firm. It may be the liver, maybe I gave her too much for a first time, maybe it shouldn't be affecting her a day and a half later, so I'm waiting to see what happens over the next day or so.

For your two ?? days I would be trying some meat chunks, chicken at this stage. You have your 10% bone with each breakfast and you have 4 boney meals at tea time (presuming the chicken breast is on the bone??). Go by your dog's poo. If they're nice and firm your bone ratio is OK. If soft you could give a bit more bone.



> I am trying really hard to give them a good mixture of everything but seem to keep getting it wrong . Getting really stressed by the whole thing as i think i am doing it right then find out i am not arghhhhhhhhh


Don't get stressed, you're doing fine. Why do you think you seem to keep getting it wrong?


----------



## billybarney

Thanks for that. They have been eating raw between 3/4 months now so you would have thought i knew what i was doing . I just presumed that with raw to go that was all i need to give them i didnt need to do all the veg,chicken wing stuff etc. I thought i could just out a bag of mince down for them and bingo they got everything they needed and i was a good doggie mumma !!! Then i read on here about people only giving the raw to go mince for one meal and other stuff for the later meal and then i think oh **** i am doing this all wrong again agrhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. My dogs are such a huge part of the family that i just want to do whats best for them ...As they have been on the raw to go mince for a while and have had no problems with any of the stuff i have given them i thought it would be ok to give them a different mince every morning  Would i be better giving them the same mince for a whole week ie the morning meal then having something different in the eve ie chicken wing etc ????? The only mince i cant feed too much of it is the raw to go meaty mix it makes them loose so only give that once a week. Sorry its a long one but think i am on a beat myself up day today


----------



## DirtyGertie

billybarney said:


> Thanks for that. They have been eating raw between 3/4 months now so you would have thought i knew what i was doing . I just presumed that with raw to go that was all i need to give them i didnt need to do all the veg,chicken wing stuff etc. I thought i could just out a bag of mince down for them and bingo they got everything they needed and i was a good doggie mumma !!! Then i read on here about people only giving the raw to go mince for one meal and other stuff for the later meal and then i think oh **** i am doing this all wrong again agrhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. My dogs are such a huge part of the family that i just want to do whats best for them ...As they have been on the raw to go mince for a while and have had no problems with any of the stuff i have given them i thought it would be ok to give them a different mince every morning  Would i be better giving them the same mince for a whole week ie the morning meal then having something different in the eve ie chicken wing etc ????? The only mince i cant feed too much of it is the raw to go meaty mix it makes them loose so only give that once a week. Sorry its a long one but think i am on a beat myself up day today


Ok - stop beating yourself up.

I didn't realise they had been on raw for 3-4 months already, so there's no need to stick to one type of mince for a week. You've already got past that stage and any problems you would already know about, as you do with the meaty mix. So your plan to give them a different mince every day is a good one, one that I will be working towards - we've only got as far as three different minces up to now, two to go and then I'll be ready to give different ones each day for variety - yay!

Of course you're a good doggie mumma, you're giving your pooches raw and you're giving a proper balanced raw. If that's all you want to feed then they are getting everything they need. There are some of us that feed mince for one meal a day and some who never use the minces at all.

The benefit of the chicken wings and other RMBs is because they crunch the bones up themselves rather than them being minced in with the RTG it helps clean the teeth. And you don't HAVE to give veg every day, you could give once or twice a week or even none if that's what you prefer.

You could give meaty chunks like chicken for a change every so often, and even if it was say once a week there'd be no need to worry about the 80:10:10 as that would be taken care of with your minces the rest of the time. You could maybe give a RMB once a week, just remember if they've not had one before then hold onto it the first time (or more if necessary) until they learn to take it easy and not gobble big chunks of bone down.

So, in the nicest possible way :001_smile:, calm down, take a breath and stop worrying, you are doing fine. And I repeat - stop beating yourself up :001_smile: .


----------



## luvmydogs

I'm not sure I have my calculations right - what percentage of food would you give an 8 month old, 35lb dog? Obviously she's still growing but doesn't need as much percentage-wise as she did when she was a baby. Advice please!


----------



## GoldenShadow

luvmydogs said:


> I'm not sure I have my calculations right - what percentage of food would you give an 8 month old, 35lb dog? Obviously she's still growing but doesn't need as much percentage-wise as she did when she was a baby. Advice please!


I don't know because I think someone on here said don't you feed them what the % of what their adult weight would be?


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## billybarney

Thank you Dirty Gertie your such a star . I went to asda this afternnon and they had loads of wings,thighs,leg reduced so i bought them all lol got loads of veg got mit all mixed up in the mixer. Dogs had a chicken wing each and some veg result very shiny bowls  i didnt know if they really liked the veg but they took the wings out first sat and crunched them then came back and ate all the veggies yeh now i am a happy doggie mummy  Think i might know what i am dong now :eekThank you sooooooooo much for your good advice its means alot to know people understand.


----------



## DirtyGertie

billybarney said:


> Thank you Dirty Gertie your such a star . I went to asda this afternnon and they had loads of wings,thighs,leg reduced so i bought them all lol got loads of veg got mit all mixed up in the mixer. Dogs had a chicken wing each and some veg result very shiny bowls  i didnt know if they really liked the veg but they took the wings out first sat and crunched them then came back and ate all the veggies yeh now i am a happy doggie mummy  Think i might know what i am dong now :eekThank you sooooooooo much for your good advice its means alot to know people understand.


You sound much happier now . Well done on your chicken bone bargains, it's always good to stock up when the price is right! Shiney bowls are lovely aren't they = happy pooches! They probably wouldn't have eaten the veg if they didn't like them. Bet they're really happy with their mummy today!


----------



## DirtyGertie

luvmydogs said:


> I'm not sure I have my calculations right - what percentage of food would you give an 8 month old, 35lb dog? Obviously she's still growing but doesn't need as much percentage-wise as she did when she was a baby. Advice please!


Taken from Katie Franke's first post in this thread:

How much: You need to feed approx 2-3% of their expected adult body weight (if still growing) per day, or of their ideal adult body weight (if they have stopped growing) per day.

2% would perhaps be for a dog with low exercise or overweight. 3%+ would be for a dog with high exercise daily, perhaps sports dogs and also puppies. Somewhere around 2.5% suits most average adult dogs. Large breeds have slower metabolisms so they tend to need the lower % and small breeds have a high metabolism so often need far more than 3% even.

Hope that helps.


----------



## joanna1984

hello all, just a quick question...can i give my dog raw lamb chops? He is a 2yr old small terrier mix about 7kg. Bought them cheap n thought about the bones after!! I no he can have bones but are these ones ok? Thanks, Jo


----------



## SixStar

Yes, they're fine  I'm sure he'll love them.


----------



## joanna1984

hello all, just a quick question...can i give my dog raw lamb chops? He is a 2yr old small terrier mix about 7kg. Bought them cheap n thought about the bones after!! I no he can have bones but are these ones ok? Thanks, Jo


----------



## joanna1984

Hi all,

I have swapped my 2yr old small (about 7kg) terrier mix dog onto a raw diet. I did it cold turkey last Wednesday (11th). I know you should only introduce one new meat a week so you know if they have problems but so far he has had beef steak (casserole & rump), beef mince, lamb chops inc bones, chicken wings inc bones, lambs liver & kidney and a sardine.
He has been absolutely fine with all the different stuff but he WILL NOT eat kidney, liver or fish raw. I have had to cook the kidney, liver and fish so he will eat it. 
My question is should I keep cooking it or should I keep giving it to him raw in the hope that he eats it. My worry is that Ill keep putting it down raw, he wont eat it and he wont be getting what he needs from the diet, making him worse off than when he started.
My other question is, what is the reason you give raw and not cook whatever you give them (apart from not being able to eat the bones when theyre cooked)?

Also, I havent given him offal for a couple of days because of the cooking it thing but he has been having meaty bones. His poo has been quite dry and in small bits. Should I give him offal and bone on the same day to make sure he can go to the loo without a struggle or can I give him whatever as long as over the course of a week or whatever it adds up to what he should be having?

Sorry if Im being daft, but please be prepared for lots of questions!!

Thanks
Jo


----------



## rawdogs

Too much liver can cause vitimin k overload,i feed as a meal once a week to my big girl,but my little one i add a tiny amount to her normal meal 2 -3 timees a week,if you do it that way and mix it in with a mince meal he won,t notice its there.
I used to have to cook it for Wilma ,would,nt touch it raw,then a couple of months ago i just dropped a bit in the dish with her wings and it went:001_rolleyes:.
If you feel his poo is too hard try adding more boneless meat.


----------



## joanna1984

Ooh, i'll try that, i didnt think to mix it in with his other raw stuff! Duh!:001_rolleyes:
I'll also try him with less boney stuff but hopefully he'll be better once i get some offal in him!

Thanks
Jo x


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## vance99

This is really cool to see so much information available at one place. I am really glad to come by here, Neva have come across so much useful information. I have to suggest to all my friends to visit this place.


----------



## ihaveapet.com

Thanks For info


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## doggydoo

I have been raw feeding my border terrier pup for three months now and I wouldn't want to feed any other way. The excitement at mealtimes and the way she eats her meals is wonderful to watch and plates are always licked completely clean. 
I understand anyones confusion as I was there myself and posting on here made me realise I was doing the right thing. 
I find its actually pretty cheap certainly more so than dried kibble as I'm lucky to get chicken carcass for free and lots of lamb rib for only £1.00. 
As a rule I usually feed a little probiotic goat yogurt mixed with a little banana or pinapple for breakfast then followed with chick or lamb bone an hour later. Lunch is some mince with green tripe and dinner the same with veg. I do give raw liver a couple of times a week and usually a little raw egg but something does give her the trots but I can't work out what as I have caught her eating crabs legs from the beach which I can't get off her! Her poos become a topic of conversaion as they are firmer, do go white and do not resemble the strange sandy mush other dogs leave behind!
Pets at home(large stores) do sell raw mince in the freezer(chick,beef ,rabbit) and frozen green tripe(stinks like ****) but Asda and Tesco also sell budget minces at very reasonable prices. 
The breeder I got my pup from also recommended Nature diet as an ok food which I use when travelling or sometimes pushed for time or staying at my parents so I always have some in.
I am a huge advocate of raw feeding now even though I am still met with stange puzzled expression when I tell anyone about it


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## vance99

Wow this is really cool, the way you have put your effort in giving us the information with the pics as well. You have got me into raw feeding.


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## umajane

wilchil64 said:


> I know the only way I'll feed raw is if it is convenient and ready to feed, which I'd hoped Prize Choice would be.


I think that the Prize Choice tripe mince is ok and apart from that I have only tried the chicken mince. From what I understand their chicken mince could contain up to 40% bone and before I found this out I have noticed that Leila would be constipated or have really hard poos whenever I fed her the chicken mince even if I mixed it with tripe.

So it contains too much bone and also I think that it does not contain any offal as well so I dont feel like it's a very good choice (the chicken mince at least).

I'm hoping that the rawtogo minces will be much better at the right level of bone and offal :thumbup1:


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## doggydoo

My pup is now way in the midst of teething at 5 1/2 months old and I have stopped giving her bones at the moment because she doesn't have enough sharp teeth to chew through the bone. When I tried her on chicken carcass and lamb bone she almost choked which is reallly scary to watch, luckily i managed to get the bones off her. Is this normal? How long until I can feed her bones again as she loves them!


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## cinnamontoast

Sounds like she's gulping, not chewing. Still give her bones, but just hold them for her so she can't try to inhale them!


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## doggydoo

I don't think she is gulping as she has been enjoying bones for the last few months. The problem is as she has lost her baby sharp teeth the new adult teeth aren't there yet to help her chew through the bones, it would be almost impossible for me to hold the bone as she is very possesive when eating.


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## Goblin

Having gone through all the posts in this thread it's nice to see a large number of people looking at the health of their dogs and what's the best thing for them, no matter what side of the For or Against raw discussion you are on. At the end of the day all you can do is be guided by what you think is best. During my own research I found the following link which may be useful for some RawFeedingGuide Spreadsheet Take note though that my impression is most people don't rely on numbers but by the poop consistency and general instinct. As a newbie, having only fed my dogs a few days on raw I'm not confident I have that instinct yet. (If you can't open the link I believe you can get a free viewer from microsoft although I use the free application openoffice).

What I would like to add to the discussion is that it is very important to do your own research. Not just how to feed raw, but also why you may want to.

Being my first post and not knowing how feasible it would be I would love to see a locked sticky which only mods can edit which contains possible links which can help people make an informed choice. As such both for and against links would be shown. This could include a lot of the links already in this thread as well as things like:
Orijen White Paper 
SecondChanceRanch : Raw Meat Diet For Dogs and even
Feeding Bones To Wolves and Dogs.
I know there are rebuttals of the SecondChanceRanch article but again, helping people make an informed choice is important.


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## snoopydo

Some Brilliant ideas there  Great Thread :thumbup:

BUT in the 1st post it says toi give Chicken Bones  All poultry Bones are a Strict NO NO for any Dog.


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## GoldenShadow

snoopydo said:


> Some Brilliant ideas there  Great Thread :thumbup:
> 
> BUT in the 1st post it says toi give Chicken Bones  All poultry Bones are a Strict NO NO for any Dog.


Sorry not sure what you mean?

You must not ever give cooked bones unless you want the risk of the dog eating sharp bits (bones get like this whilst cooking as moisture leaves them and they go hard/brittle).

*Raw* chicken bones are fine. Raw any bones are fine but some don't feed weight baring bones of large or old animals as they can be more prone to splintering I think too.

Rupert likes a nice chicken carcass


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## rawdogs

Poultry bones of any kind are fine ,as long as they are RAW.

Cooked bones of any kind are a big NO NO,


----------



## LeeM018

Anybody tried pigeon with their dog?

I'm looking to build a plan of attack for this raw feeding gig and I've been looking at a lot of farmers sites in the hunt for a rabbit supplier. I've noticed that pigeon seems to be readily available and comparatively cheap, but don't really know much about it....anybody got any experience on this one???


----------



## Goblin

GoldenShadow said:


> *Raw* chicken bones are fine. Raw any bones are fine but some don't feed weight baring bones of large or old animals as they can be more prone to splintering I think too.


It's not splintering of weight bearing bones which is the problem. It's the fact that they are more dense and can cause teeth fractures. Dog's dental work can be expensive  Doesn't matter if it's raw feeding or a recreational bone. They should be avoided.


----------



## Jasper's Bloke

LeeM018 said:


> Anybody tried pigeon with their dog?
> 
> I'm looking to build a plan of attack for this raw feeding gig and I've been looking at a lot of farmers sites in the hunt for a rabbit supplier. I've noticed that pigeon seems to be readily available and comparatively cheap, but don't really know much about it....anybody got any experience on this one???


There is absolutely no reason why you cannot feed pigeon but as with any wild game there are two important rules to remember. Firstly make sure you know where it has come from and specifically whether it was shot or netted, shot game can potentially still have lead shot in it. Secondly, because these are not commercially farmed animals they can be carrying parasites and bacteria which would normally be taken care of by cooking, but because you will be feeding raw the meat needs to be frozen for a few weeks in order to destroy them.

To clarify the bone debate, any bone can be eaten safely as long as it is uncooked and is size appropriate for your dog. Very large bones like the weight bearing (hips/legs/shoulders) of larger animals such as cows and sheep are very hard and can literally break or chip dogs teeth and so should be avoided, but I have seen plenty of small (mini) dogs make short work of a chicken wing or two.


----------



## cinnamontoast

LeeM018 said:


> Anybody tried pigeon with their dog?
> 
> I'm looking to build a plan of attack for this raw feeding gig and I've been looking at a lot of farmers sites in the hunt for a rabbit supplier. I've noticed that pigeon seems to be readily available and comparatively cheap, but don't really know much about it....anybody got any experience on this one???


Nearly bought some yesterday. Rabbit is good, too but as Jaspersbloke says, check for shot, although it should pass ok and worm afterwards as parasites are probably present.

I'm delighted to see this thread still going, such a shame Katie has disappeared when it was her that got me into this and helped with my numpty questions.

I'm happy to help others as lots of people are turning to raw, but I do wish they'd bother to trawl through this sticky: it pretty much gives you all the info and as raw is very different to other feeding regimes, I do feel owners should look at this and use the many people's experiences: there's a balanced level of information/knowledge.


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## Whisperedreams

Hi i am really interested in feeding my two border collies a raw food diet / barf lol not sure what you'd call it. They both do agility my boy is nearly 3 and i's like a little more weight on him and my bitch is nearly 2 both are currently fed on a dry food. Just a little lost on how to go about it and getting started really i've read a bit from here and can see some feeding bones others add veg im a bit lost :crying:


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## babycham2002

Whisperedreams said:


> Hi i am really interested in feeding my two border collies a raw food diet / barf lol not sure what you'd call it. They both do agility my boy is nearly 3 and i's like a little more weight on him and my bitch is nearly 2 both are currently fed on a dry food. Just a little lost on how to go about it and getting started really i've read a bit from here and can see some feeding bones others add veg im a bit lost :crying:


Here's what I would recommend
read the first couple of pages of this thread a couple of times,
read the sticky raw feeding diary also
i do recommend Tom Lonsdales RMB book too

Try and source yourself a second freezer
Make an order from one of the raw food suppliers

Off you go 


Best of luck

Vicki


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## iplaywind

I pay attention to this website due to one of my friends introduction. I found it is really helpful for me and my baby dog. Thanks very much for so many good articles.
Authority Dog Food


----------



## Sam1309

hello hope you are all doing well,

my pup's been raw fed for a yr now and this thread was such a help when starting out. he's a picture of health, perfect weight, energetic focused but not hyper as BC's tend to be.....

he's lovely teeth and the vet was very pleased with him at his annual check up at the weekend


putting him on a RMB diet was the best thing i ever done for him


----------



## Goblin

For those wanting more research material with pros and cons, I'd like to post a link to the following thread http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/185367-bad-raw-experiences.html


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## cinnamontoast

Just a random picture from today:


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## SixStar

Brilliant pic cinammontoast - nothing better than seeing a dog tuck into some real food.

Was bunny a 'catch your own dinner' or butchers job?!


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## cinnamontoast

SixStar said:


> Brilliant pic cinammontoast - nothing better than seeing a dog tuck into some real food.
> 
> Was bunny a 'catch your own dinner' or butchers job?!


Dog Food Company. I'd love them to catch their own, but they're young and daft when out and currently very focussed on the ball launcher. I'd take them to the yard, but the horse hates them! Shame cos the place is heaving with bunnies!


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## Kazastan

Great picture Cinnamon Toast


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## amydls

I am glad that i found this thread as i have just started this week feeding "raw". I have been introducing bits little by little but yesterday was the first time my dogs had there first completely Raw meal... My 11month old Boston terrier seems to be a little picky - not a huge fan of the veggies and was suprised to see the greedy little devil leave a meaty bone when i put it down for him.. although he has been chewing at it this morning.... my min pin on the other hand seems to always finish off any left over carrot or celery in either bowl....iv prepared all my "meals" for a good two weeks, but i will definately try blending the veg and fruit next time... 

I have a few questions though - as iv seen alot of conflicting info on the internet about raw feeding ( and here in Mexico, hardly anyone does it so i have not get very far asking others)..
Last night we went to the supermarket, bought a 20kg sack of kibble for the dogs to graze on between meals ( they get fed at around 10.30am and around 7pm) ( kibble which they are hardly touching).... i bought some cuts of beef, liver, heart, cow stomach,chicken necks and a whole fish.. everything was cut up into small chunks ( safety first as my dogs thought these were treats at first and tried to wolf them down almost choking!)... also mixed in is celery,carrot,apple,peas,brocolli and in a few bags i put a tablespoon of cooked lentils... the heart and liver was also added sparingly... so after chopping and mixing for quite a while, we ended up with quite a large mix of doggy food - didnt look bad at all ! Fed my dog little scraps as i was doing this and when i actually put his food down, it was the first time iv seen my BT leave a meal..... he was full, satisfied..... and i was happy!

question number 1 - can i give them the chicken necks,with skin and all? i stripped the skin off most of them as it just seems "so much".... but i did freeze it just incase because it seemed like alot to be throwing away...

number 2 - i had seem online that brocolli was good for them but now im seeing that it can be toxic in high amounts? any help on this? 

number 3 - iv seen that fish is essential for them, but also now seeing other info saying not to give "too much".... the food bags i prepared probably have 2-3 thumb nail size small chunks of fish in each.... im guessing thats not "too much"....


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## Goblin

I'll first say I feed a different method of raw from what you seem to be feeding, I don't add vegetables. That style is called generally called BARF but I will answer the questions after a quick point.

When starting raw you need to take things slowly. There is a "transitional" phase where your dog's stomach needs to get used to eating what it should naturally be eating. The older the dog, sometimes the harder it is. You need to introduce things slowly. Most people spend at least 1-2 weeks just feeding chicken and then introducing new types of meat weekly if all goes well. Order we went is chicken->turkey->fish->pork->beef->organs.



> question number 1 - can i give them the chicken necks,with skin and all? i stripped the skin off most of them as it just seems "so much".... but i did freeze it just incase because it seemed like alot to be throwing away...


During the transition phase skin can cause loose stools. It's fatty. It's recommended that the first couple of day to keep skin off, then gradually add it back if the stool produced by your dog is firm



> number 2 - i had seem online that brocolli was good for them but now im seeing that it can be toxic in high amounts? any help on this?


I believe dogs are carnivores not omnivores so I'll let a BARFer answer this. Will say quantities required to be toxic are probably very high in relation to what you would be giving your dog. I know that's the case with garlic.



> number 3 - iv seen that fish is essential for them, but also now seeing other info saying not to give "too much".... the food bags i prepared probably have 2-3 thumb nail size small chunks of fish in each.... im guessing thats not "too much"....


No, certainly not too much. We regularly give whole fish of about 1lb each to our dogs without problems. There is a problem with fresh-water fish along the west coast of North America (San Francisco to Alaska) with a microbe Neorickettsia helminthoecca living in parasites which can cause a potentially fatal disease 'salmon poisoning' which you should be aware of.

The other thing to add is a ration of 80% meat/10% bone/5% liver/5% other organs is not necessarily at every meal. So long as it averages out roughly every couple of weeks it should be fine.


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## PatrickCampbell

It's amazing thread. Really, this is one of the top notch stuff... To provide the natural proteins, antioxidants, enzymes, vitamins and minerals pets needs raw feeding but this guide is very important to clear all possible doubts regarding to raw feeding.


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## staffybella

my dog won't eat raw chicken anymore, is it ok for her to eat it frozen?


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## suesdogs15

Hi ,I am new to this forum and am considering changing my dogs over to raw feeding. I have read alot about the subject just need to be brave and do it lol. I have a silly question ,do you feed them using a bowl or what .When I have given my three bones they take them everywhere, the house ,the garden etc and I don't mind the mess once in a while but not everyday !! Please tell me they can keep some of it in a bowl. Any advice gratefully received .Thanks Sue


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## SixStar

suesdogs15 said:


> Hi ,I am new to this forum and am considering changing my dogs over to raw feeding. I have read alot about the subject just need to be brave and do it lol. I have a silly question ,do you feed them using a bowl or what .When I have given my three bones they take them everywhere, the house ,the garden etc and I don't mind the mess once in a while but not everyday !! Please tell me they can keep some of it in a bowl. Any advice gratefully received .Thanks Sue


Mine eat small and soft things from a bowl - minces, small chunks of meat or offal, fish, small scraps etc - but large chunks, and things with bone, get taken out of their bowls and eaten on the floor. I feed in our outbuilding which has a concrete floor and I disinfectant after feeding times, or in nice weather they eat in the garden, but you could just keep them in the kitchen and mop after feeding times, or provide a washable bed/towel for them to eat on, and restrict the areas they go when they've got their raw food.

I depends on how strict you are with germs and hygiene - I'm a bit OCD  but I know many just let them eat where they want and clean beds/floors weekly or whatever.

Well done for considering changing to raw - you won't regret it :thumbup:


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## GoldenShadow

suesdogs15 said:


> Hi ,I am new to this forum and am considering changing my dogs over to raw feeding. I have read alot about the subject just need to be brave and do it lol. I have a silly question ,do you feed them using a bowl or what .When I have given my three bones they take them everywhere, the house ,the garden etc and I don't mind the mess once in a while but not everyday !! Please tell me they can keep some of it in a bowl. Any advice gratefully received .Thanks Sue


Same as SixStar in that minces/chunks stay in bowls but anything like chicken carcasses or boney things are taken off for a good chew.

I just feed ours out in the garden. We've got 20 x 12 foot of decking out of our back door and my intention is (with it being our first winter of raw feeding) to just carry on and get them to eat on there so off the mud but still out in the cold 

I am very OCD about germs and things so feeding in the kitchen would be a massive last resort and I would be spending an awful long time cleaning up in there too.


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## suesdogs15

Thanks for the replies.I am not OCD but also don't want alot of mess. I am happy to feed them in the kitchen but am worried there may be a few arguements as mine always seem to want what the other one has even if its the same, they aren't very bright !!! I have now weigh all 3 and am going to have to find a cheap supply of food and a freezer to store it in. I hadn't worked out how much I would need, each dog need 400 to 500gms per meal, that nearly a cow a week lol Thats assuming I have worked it out right, they weigh between 19 -24kgs each :scared:


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## suesdogs15

I have another question re veg, is it best cooked or raw as I have seen articles saying both is best so now I am confused. Thanks


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## SixStar

suesdogs15 said:


> I have another question re veg, is it best cooked or raw as I have seen articles saying both is best so now I am confused. Thanks


Always raw 

If it's left whole or in large chunks, the dogs get very little nutritional benefit from it as they can't digest it, however if it's blended, crushed or finely chopped, the cells walls are broken down and dogs can digest it better - therefore getting all the vitamins etc from it 

I blend a load of different fruits and vegetables in a blender, add a few other bits and pieces and then freeze in ice cube trays so they're pre-portioned, and then I just thaw and give to the dogs daily.


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## luvmydogs

staffybella said:


> my dog won't eat raw chicken anymore, is it ok for her to eat it frozen?


Yes it is


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## suesdogs15

SixStar said:


> Always raw
> 
> If it's left whole or in large chunks, the dogs get very little nutritional benefit from it as they can't digest it, however if it's blended, crushed or finely chopped, the cells walls are broken down and dogs can digest it better - therefore getting all the vitamins etc from it
> 
> I blend a load of different fruits and vegetables in a blender, add a few other bits and pieces and then freeze in ice cube trays so they're pre-portioned, and then I just thaw and give to the dogs daily.[/QUOTE
> 
> Is one ice cube a day enough or do you give more than one each


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## SixStar

suesdogs15 said:


> Is one ice cube a day enough or do you give more than one each


Depends on the size of your dogs!

My Westie has 2 a day, the greyhounds have 4, the Bernese 6 and the Mastiff 7


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## jacquibee

Hi everyone i'm totally new to this site, I joined because I am an animal lover having cats and dogs. Just lost my staffy chester aged 13 to cancer and my siamese cat 5 to kidney disease the grief was horrendous. I have two siamese cats still with me and a staffy puppy dexter 7 weeks old. I've been really interested in the barf diet and read so much but just dont know where to start. My vet was appalled when I said I was looking into this and said do I really want to bring back an impacted and ill puppy in 6 months time. So I'm looking into it on all the sites to see whats going to be best, sick of losing my beautiful animals to cancer etc and read about the commercial food, and whats in it and I was just so shocked. So thanks for this site. Jacquibee


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## sazzle

jacquibee said:


> Hi everyone i'm totally new to this site, I joined because I am an animal lover having cats and dogs. Just lost my staffy chester aged 13 to cancer and my siamese cat 5 to kidney disease the grief was horrendous. I have two siamese cats still with me and a staffy puppy dexter 7 weeks old. I've been really interested in the barf diet and read so much but just dont know where to start. My vet was appalled when I said I was looking into this and said do I really want to bring back an impacted and ill puppy in 6 months time. So I'm looking into it on all the sites to see whats going to be best, sick of losing my beautiful animals to cancer etc and read about the commercial food, and whats in it and I was just so shocked. So thanks for this site. Jacquibee


Hi there and a warm welcome.

Please dont let your vet put you off at all, my dog has only been on raw for 2 weeks and I am totally happy with what I am doing.

There is loads of info on here to help you out and plenty of people that will help you out if you have any further questions too.

Good luck in your new adventure.


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## suesdogs15

Hi ,sorry me again with another question lol. Have I got the right amount of food? My dog weighs 24kgs and I have worked out that is about 480/500gms of food. Is this for the whole day or per meal. I gave him 250 gms of meat today and he looked at me as if to say is that it when he had eaten it, gave him the same for tea but with meaty bones.I am sure I have got it right or am I starving him, can he still be hungry or just hopeful !!! Thanks


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## suesdogs15

SixStar said:


> Depends on the size of your dogs!
> 
> My Westie has 2 a day, the greyhounds have 4, the Bernese 6 and the Mastiff 7


That sound a bit more like it, 4 ice cubes of veg as he is a big lurcher.


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## dvnbiker

suesdogs15 said:


> Hi ,sorry me again with another question lol. Have I got the right amount of food? My dog weighs 24kgs and I have worked out that is about 480/500gms of food. Is this for the whole day or per meal. I gave him 250 gms of meat today and he looked at me as if to say is that it when he had eaten it, gave him the same for tea but with meaty bones.I am sure I have got it right or am I starving him, can he still be hungry or just hopeful !!! Thanks


this is for the whole day but remember it is approximately 2-3% of bodyweight. One of my dogs only has about 1.5% but the others have nearer 3%. I go on the rib test and how they are looking. You will find with chunked meat and RMB the meals last longer and the dogs are more satisfied than they ever were on kibble.


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## suesdogs15

dvnbiker said:


> this is for the whole day but remember it is approximately 2-3% of bodyweight. One of my dogs only has about 1.5% but the others have nearer 3%. I go on the rib test and how they are looking. You will find with chunked meat and RMB the meals last longer and the dogs are more satisfied than they ever were on kibble.


Thanks again ,it is his wishful thinking lol.He seems to really love his new diet even if he wants more. The poos so far are better and perhaps it is in my mind but I think he's less " windy ", can't smell where he has been like before. It is hard to say with regards to his ribs cos he is a lurcher and they are mean't to be "ribby". I will monitor him for a few weeks and if he looses weight I will increase it to 3%. I think I have got the bug and am off to buy a new freezer cos I can't put anymore meat/bones in the two I already have!!! Now all I need to do is start my other two on it.


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## Goblin

suesdogs15 said:


> Now all I need to do is start my other two on it.


Will say each individual dog may be different, even if in the same breed and size. This is also applicable to how well they transition, how they like things like liver later etc. Do not be shocked if each dog needs variations in quantity or bone content to maintain weight and firm stool. With multiple dogs I found keeping a small diary of weight/food given and stool "quality" useful so I could adjust for each dog until I could customize what went into the bowl according to each dog automatically. If wanting to feed them all the same meats, when transitioning always go at the pace of the slowest dog. Don't introduce new meat types to all if one is still not comfortable with the current.


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## suesdogs15

Goblin said:


> Will say each individual dog may be different, even if in the same breed and size. This is also applicable to how well they transition, how they like things like liver later etc. Do not be shocked if each dog needs variations in quantity or bone content to maintain weight and firm stool. With multiple dogs I found keeping a small diary of weight/food given and stool "quality" useful so I could adjust for each dog until I could customize what went into the bowl according to each dog automatically. If wanting to feed them all the same meats, when transitioning always go at the pace of the slowest dog. Don't introduce new meat types to all if one is still not comfortable with the current.


Thanks keeping a diary sounds like a good idea. I got some green tripe today and my God does it smell, any way I gave all three a small bit as they were driving me mad. One of them wouldn't touch it at all ,the other two wolfed it down. This suggests I may have to feed her a little different to the others. Monitoring the poos may not be so easy, don't fancy having to go out with all three everytime lol but will try.:thumbsup:thumbsup:


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## Goblin

Not sure if this has been placed in this thread anywhere but will post it now. A scientific study called LippertSapy which shows "home made food" (although not specifically raw) can enable a dog to have the benefit of a longer life expectancy.


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## Rosie Dane

Hi everyone!

Just joined today and also just started feeding raw today  I'm the proud owner of a gorgeous 9wk old Great Dane pup and a 7yr old Border Collie. I decided after a lot of reading to put them both on a raw diet to try to keep them as healthy as possible and perhaps go some way to helping my collies arthritis. I have opted to go with Natures Instinct for the moment until I get into the swing of things and find some good resources local to me. Both dogs had their first meaty chicken breakfast and Rosie, the pup has had her lunch too and seems very content. Up til now on her kibble, she's been bugging me for food every 2hrs. 

So, I just want to make sure I'm feeding the correct quantities. The collie is 20kg so am I right in thinking 2-3% is about 500g per day? That seems alot? The Dane puppy is currently 7kg, so how do I measure what to feed her? Do I go on her expected adult weight or what she weighs now? And what % are we looking at? Just want to make sure I'm not over or under feeding.

Many thanks


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## kerrypup

Hi everybody.

Been doing lots of research and read alot of this thread now over the last week  and today i gave my pup her 1st meaty bone!

(been researching since last year but lost my JR before i could change her over to BARF).

Anyway i popped into 1 butchers and picked up a carrier bag full of meaty bones,and meaty ribs.....got them home and after my kitchen initially looked like a Butcher's itself had pulled and cut them into portions for her whilst she was jumping around at my feet as if to say stop teasing me hahaha!

I'm a bit confused with the amount i feed her though,i'm going to take it slow with her but i really want to get her onto a complete BARF diet,she's very fussy with her food and i have at least 3 bags of dry food on the go at once,when she does eat it she doesn't chew at all and so bloats herself up after her meal and has awful wind from the mouth end for hours after.

My pup is a 6 month old Corgi x Terrier,not sure of exact weight but was 6.7kg a month ago,she's the size of a short legged JRT but barrell like and long like a Corgi. Roughly how much should i be feeding her?

I'm yet to work on the meat/offal side or smaller bones like chicken etc as wanted to let her have something she wouldn't scoff down(she's a rescue dog and had to scrabble with other dogs for food,so was food aggressive towards animals when i got her 2 months ago and has always scoffed her food without chewing/biting it).

Anyway any starting advice would be helpful. 
Thanks guys


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## suesdogs15

Disappointment today and everything was going so well, I gave my dogs tinned sardines with raw egg for breakfast and chicken carcuss for tea, and I got loose stools !!!!! Up until that I had normal "poos" from them all for the first time since I have had them (3+ years) and they were loving the food. They have had chicken portions and wings on several occasions so is it due to the fish and egg? Have I been a little too zealous in my choices or just unlucky? I have tried heart, chicken,green tripe,mince,liver and meaty bonesand have had no problems.


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## SixStar

suesdogs15 said:


> Disappointment today and everything was going so well, I gave my dogs tinned sardines with raw egg for breakfast and chicken carcuss for tea, and I got loose stools !!!!! Up until that I had normal "poos" from them all for the first time since I have had them (3+ years) and they were loving the food. They have had chicken portions and wings on several occasions so is it due to the fish and egg? Have I been a little too zealous in my choices or just unlucky? I have tried heart, chicken,green tripe,mince,liver and meaty bonesand have had no problems.


Whoa! Slow down!

How long have you been raw feeding? It should be chicken ONLY for a week at the very least.


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## suesdogs15

SixStar said:


> Whoa! Slow down!
> 
> How long have you been raw feeding? It should be chicken ONLY for a week at the very least.


It has been about 3 weeks for the one and about a week for the others. I haven't been doing only raw, I have done one meal of raw one of dried food for the first one for about a week. The first dog is the one that has been on all the different foods. I have been keeping a diary and seeing what the poos have been like and they have been formed for the first time in the 2 1/2 years I have had him. It wasn't until I gave the pilchards and eggs to them all that I had the one off loose stool. I realise I have gone at it abit like a bull in a china shop but I was so impressed with the first dogs results I think I have gone too fast :mad2:. They have had tinned fish before but not with eggs so perhaps there is a lesson to be learnt !! If they are ok on chicken , which they have been, how quickly can you add more food if they have no problems? Thanks (now on a go slow )


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## kerrypup

I'm really lost on this % weighing now 

I weighed Pixie today and she came in at 12 lb's ,i'm useless at converting but my converter on my phone says 5.4kg???? is this right? If so what is 2-3 % of 5.4kg as it seems really small .....so far i've been going on her and how she is ,whether she's content,seems hungrier etc. She's seems just fine to me but out of curiosity i would like to know if i'm overfeeding her or underfeeding her !


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## Lil Doglets

2% of 5.4kgs = 108g 2.5% = 135g and 3% = 162g 
generally you would give around 2% if they need to lose weight and 3% is if they need to gain weight, otherwise give around the middle amount.
All dogs are different though and depends on exercise levels/age etc . but if she seems fine on the amount your giving now then just stick with that, and don't worry about it looking like a small amount  
just remember that every little bit of it gets used unlike dry food with fillers n whatnot


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## kerrypup

Thank you :thumbup:

She's doing so well on it so far and noticed changes already ...i was a bit worried over the fact i was measuring/weighing anything i am feeding her !


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## kerrypup

* wasn't :aureola:


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## cinnamontoast

Lil Doglets said:


> 2% of 5.4kgs = 108g 2.5% = 135g and 3% = 162g
> generally you would give around 2% if they need to lose weight and 3% is if they need to gain weight, otherwise give around the middle amount.
> All dogs are different though and depends on exercise levels/age etc . but if she seems fine on the amount your giving now then just stick with that, and don't worry about it looking like a small amount


The dog is a pup of 6 months old so the amount should definitely be at least 3% of weight as he is still growing. I'd be looking to feed 3% + perhaps. I wouldn't worry about feeding a bit too much as long as you aren't going crazy.



kerrypup said:


> Thank you :thumbup:


Do weigh/measure til you're happy with how much to give. Once the pup is older, then go by eye.


----------



## Lil Doglets

cinammontoast said:


> The dog is a pup of 6 months old so the amount should definitely not be 2-3% of weight as he is still growing. I'd be looking to feed 5% perhaps.QUOTE]
> 
> Ahhh sorry i didn't know that  what i said only refers to adult dogs


----------



## kerrypup

I would think the amount i'm feeding her now is suiting her well although i haven't measured it.
She's quite a tough one as she hasn't got a belly line like most dogs(ribs/belly) as she's barrell like like a Corgi so her spine and her belly go's straight from front leg to back leg !!!
I've been going by her behaviour(whether she's content with what she's eaten or seems to be looking for more)

For instance this morning she had a chicken wing and small leg which she ate within 15 minutes and then a tin of mackeral in tomatoe sauce with a few tiny bits of chicken liver for her evening meal......she's currently fast asleep on the sofa which is where she's been for last few hours so obviously content as she is a scrounger when hungry!

She's been totally on Raw now for 2 weeks (was mixed dry and raw(not together) for about 2 weeks before that)and hasnt seemed to put on weight or loose weight in that time........she's hard to tell as to how much growing she has left because of her mix(Corgi x JR Terrier),she'll be 7 months on the 1st Nov and baically looks like a Mini Corgi(i myself dont think she'll get anywhere near the size of a Corgi.


----------



## cinnamontoast

Lil Doglets said:


> cinammontoast said:
> 
> 
> 
> The dog is a pup of 6 months old so the amount should definitely not be 2-3% of weight as he is still growing. I'd be looking to feed 5% perhaps.QUOTE]
> 
> Ahhh sorry i didn't know that  what i said only refers to adult dogs
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I edited to say definitely should be 3%+. I fed mine 5% for a while because they seemed very skinny but they're at just over 3% now as only 16 months still.
Click to expand...


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## terencesmum

I feed about 3% of his expected adult weight. But it changes, depending on demand  He just went through a mad growing phase and was eating anything in sight, but has stopped now, so I reduced the portions.


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## kerrypup

It's more confusing to me as the ideal adult weight of a JR and Corgi are completely different ,if i base it on a Corgi i could well end up over feeding her and vice versa with the JR. I dont think i have much choice but to play by her and common sense of me as to whether she needs more or less......i think i'm going to weigh her every 2 weeks and keep a chart just to be safe she's not piling on too much.....and see what happens...she's taken to everything very well so far ...i'm so glad i decided to switch her to Raw.


----------



## pogo

cinammontoast said:


> Lil Doglets said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I edited to say definitely should be 3%+. I fed mine 5% for a while because they seemed very skinny but they're at just over 3% now as only 16 months still.
> 
> 
> 
> Mines only 9 months old but has been fed 2% of adult weight roughly from 9 weeks old which maintain the best body condition for him.
Click to expand...


----------



## terencesmum

kerrypup said:


> It's more confusing to me as the ideal adult weight of a JR and Corgi are completely different ,if i base it on a Corgi i could well end up over feeding her and vice versa with the JR. I dont think i have much choice but to play by her and common sense of me as to whether she needs more or less......i think i'm going to weigh her every 2 weeks and keep a chart just to be safe she's not piling on too much.....and see what happens...she's taken to everything very well so far ...i'm so glad i decided to switch her to Raw.


Well, it is difficult at first. Terence's dad was HUGE and his mum normal sized, so where do you start? We just decided on a middle of the road approach and I keep checking if I can feel his ribs. So far, he's in excellent condition (you can check for yourself. I posted some pics of my lovely Mr T )


----------



## kerrypup

I've just read ideal weight for an adult JR is 14-18 lbs and an adult Corgi could be upto 40lbs......:scared:

My little Pix is only 12lb ...i'd be amazed if she reaches 20lb let alone 40lb!!!!


----------



## terencesmum

kerrypup said:


> I've just read ideal weight for an adult JR is 14-18 lbs and an adult Corgi could be upto 40lbs......:scared:
> 
> My little Pix is only 12lb ...i'd be amazed if she reaches 20lb let alone 40lb!!!!


40 lbs? For a Welsh Corgi?  No way! My breed encyclopedia says 27 for a dog, and 25 for a bitch.


----------



## kerrypup

oops...lol! :mad2:

your right,it says 40lbs if allowed to overeat!

but even 30 is more then double what she is now.......i really cant see her getting that big. well i'm hoping not anhyway haha


----------



## terencesmum

Hehe, no worries. Just err on the side of caution, then.


----------



## kerrypup

ah.....cardigan's are bigger then pembroke's and can be upto 34lb for a female and 38lb for a male. Still a good difference to a JR and if i half it i should aim at around approx 20-25lb ideal body weight when adult .


----------



## terencesmum

kerrypup said:


> ah.....cardigan's are bigger then pembroke's and can be upto 34lb for a female and 38lb for a male. Still a good difference to a JR and if i half it i should aim at around approx 20-25lb ideal body weight when adult .


Sounds sensible


----------



## doggydoo

I've been raw feeding my border terrier since I got her and shes now 11 months old. The thing is since she had her first season 3 months ago she is totally off her food. She used to love her chicken wings and now has no interest whatsoever the same for lamb and pork bones. Even minced beef which she would eat with gusto she leaves most of it. The only thing she likes is tinned butchers tripe! I've tried the yogurt but she's been off that for months now.
I'm not too worried as she is eating some foods because she ate left roast beef dinner last night and she will eat if I feed her with my hand. Things like paddywack or dried tripe sticks she will snatch out of my hand. Naturally I'm concerned she isn't getting the right nutrition, is this just a phase? I'm wasting a lot of chicken wings!


----------



## Treacle1

alaun said:


> Great thread - I've been trying to find the one with photos too (I think it was sleeping Lion's), the pics we're great to help people preparing carcassess etc for the first time. Could it be added to this sticky?
> 
> My butcher is ace too - he gives us plenty of bones and sheep and ox hearts. Not only that but he does the best pork pies in history:thumbup:[/QUOTE
> 
> I was struggling trying to find that post to. If you Google "Blended Veggies and meat" it's the first on the list.


----------



## cornelius121

Grate . i ve got many information. thanks to give such a nice post.


----------



## caine

my vet told me never to give bones from 2 leged animals to dogs ie chicken phesant pigeon etc as the bones can splinter as my friends dog died couse a chicken bone splinted in the dogs lungs and punctured it


----------



## Dogless

caine said:


> my vet told me never to give bones from 2 leged animals to dogs ie chicken phesant pigeon etc as the bones can splinter as my friends dog died couse a chicken bone splinted in the dogs lungs and punctured it


You should never give cooked bones; raw is a personal choice as risks come with everything, but many vets are against it. I would guess that for a bone to enter a dog's lungs it would have had to have been somehow aspirated.


----------



## unicorn

need help
I am from Germany and a new to this Forum . 
Sorry about my english it is not the best! Some howe I dont know where to start!
I stumbled across you lot searching for help on ligament injury in Dogs. As one of my dogs (Great Dane) has badly damaged his knee on 2 December 2011.He did have surgery 6 weeks ago,his other problem is he has got arthritis and he is only 2 years old.
Is here someone who has got a Great Dane on raw feeding?
Thank you


----------



## Goblin

The author of Dedicated to proper carnivore nutrition - Prey Model Raw Feeding for Dogs & Cats has several great danes, all of which are fed raw. I do know at least one other person on this forum who has a 6 month old great dane who was looking into raw feeding. Not sure if they started though.

Do you have any specific questions ?


----------



## hobbs2004

unicorn said:


> need help
> I am from Germany and a new to this Forum .
> Sorry about my english it is not the best! Some howe I dont know where to start!
> I stumbled across you lot searching for help on ligament injury in Dogs. As one of my dogs (Great Dane) has badly damaged his knee on 2 December 2011.He did have surgery 6 weeks ago,his other problem is he has got arthritis and he is only 2 years old.
> Is here someone who has got a Great Dane on raw feeding?
> Thank you


Hey unicorn (or should that be Einhorn? ) not sure whether you have already been there and gotten the t-shirt but there is a really good German raw feeding site and forum: Startseite - dubarfst - die Barf-Community 

Hope you find some answers and hope you get your GD back on an even keel!


----------



## unicorn

I have so many questions and I dont really know where to start the main thing is I want to/ I need to change my boys diet to help him with the arthritis and with his damaged knee.


----------



## unicorn

I think I am a bit scared because of what I was reading here the amount of food bones,meat and veg you have to give to your dog..confused
Compare a great dane to other dogs .at the moment I feed 4 times a day, the reason for this is one of my last boys had bloat and I dont want to take any risk!


----------



## Hretha

Hi

I started feeding my two girlies raw two weeks ago and so far it has been marvellous (and they must think all their christmas's have come at once).
But now I am concerned about something.
Last night I introduced some beef liver to their chicken and my EPI girl thanked me for it with terrible diarrhoea on the dining room carpet last night. 

Has anybody else made the experience of their dogs not being able to stomach liver? Would chicken liver be more beneficial? 
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Jill


----------



## Goblin

Liver and organs should be introduced very slowly. It took us a couple of months before we introduced them after we had introduced all the other types of meat.

One thing which may help is to feed a boney meal with the liver, such as a chicken back and small piece of liver. With poop watching you can slowly increase the amount of liver added.


----------



## Hretha

Thanks a lot for your answer. 

I think I must have fed too much liver to cause the diarrhoea.
She had a chicken thigh with about 100g of liver, I guess it was simply too much, too soon. Throughout today she has been fine and the runs stopped (projectile pooing - never seen anything like it ).

Trial and error, I suppose. But apart from that little glitch, I am not looking back at kibble at all, nor do the girls. They absolutely love their meat, bones and veg.

Jill


----------



## toryb

I am considering switching our pup to raw...she came to us on AG puppy kibble but had very loose stools and so I switched her to a complete diet of Nature Diet wet food and the change has been amazing so now im wondering what raw could do for her!  Millie is 17 weeks and on three meals per day at the moment.

I have a few questions and didnt want to start another raw questions thread really :lol:

1) she weighs 9.3kg as of yesterday at the vets...how do I calculate how much I would need to start with? I understand that I need to watch her weight to see what works for her but is there a guide for a starting point?

2) to switch from her diet of ND am I right in thinking that I ought to do a month of chicken and then slowley add other meat in? If this is right then would a menu of (looking at the raw2go website) chicken mince, chicken and tripe, green tripe, chicken necks/wings/carcass be ok? 

3) how do you incorporate eggs, natural yoghurt etc into their meals?

4) how do you balance their meals with a mix of minces and bones? How do you know your feeding enough if you give mince morning and lunch and then chicken wings for tea etc...do you weigh the wings/necks etc to make sure your offering the right amount?

Thank you


----------



## cinnamontoast

toryb said:


> 1) she weighs 9.3kg as of yesterday at the vets...how do I calculate how much I would need to start with? I understand that I need to watch her weight to see what works for her but is there a guide for a starting point?
> 
> 2) to switch from her diet of ND am I right in thinking that I ought to do a month of chicken and then slowley add other meat in? If this is right then would a menu of (looking at the raw2go website) chicken mince, chicken and tripe, green tripe, chicken necks/wings/carcass be ok?
> 
> 3) how do you incorporate eggs, natural yoghurt etc into their meals?
> 
> 4) how do you balance their meals with a mix of minces and bones? How do you know your feeding enough if you give mince morning and lunch and then chicken wings for tea etc...do you weigh the wings/necks etc to make sure your offering the right amount?
> 
> Thank you


1. *2-3%* of projected adult weight or breed standard *or 10% of current puppy weight.*

2. Yes, that would be about ideal. 

3. Put a whole egg in any of her meals. I give mine a couple a week. Only one likes the shell, he eats those for everyone. You could just break it over her food.

4. The ratio is 80:10:10 meat, bone, offal, although only use tiny pieces of offal to start with.

Read the first four pages of this thread. It pretty much tells you everything.


----------



## toryb

cinammontoast said:


> 1. 10% of projected adult weight or breed standard.
> 
> 2. Yes, that would be about ideal.
> 
> 3. Put a whole egg in any of her meals. I give mine a couple a week. Only one likes the shell, s he eats those for everyone. You could just brea kit over her food.
> 
> 4. The ratio is 80:10:10 meat, bone, offal, although only use tiny pieces of offal to start with.
> 
> Read the first four pages of this thread. It pretty much tells you everything.


Brilliant, thank you  The bit about 10% of projected adult weight...she is a cross breed and I have no idea how big she will get (greyhound x saluki)


----------



## suesdogs15

toryb said:


> Brilliant, thank you  The bit about 10% of projected adult weight...she is a cross breed and I have no idea how big she will get (greyhound x saluki)


I have a greyhound,saluki,deerhound cross and she is 22 kgs/44lbs. She despite her parentage is very slight and dainty but it at least will give you an idea. If you calculate her food for a final weight of about that and keep an eye on her visible weight. It is easy with greyhound/ lurchers as you are meant to see their ribs, if you can't you are feeding too much :lol: My largest greyhound is 25kgs/55lbs so I doubt she will be more than that .


----------



## toryb

Thank you for that...so if i go on 20kg for now and then pplay by ear. So that would be 2kg of RAW per day? that seems like an awful lot?
Just trying to work out what I would need in a month and at 2kg a day i would need ALOT!


----------



## cinnamontoast

toryb said:


> Thank you for that...so if i go on 20kg for now and then pplay by ear. So that would be 2kg of RAW per day? that seems like an awful lot?
> Just trying to work out what I would need in a month and at 2kg a day i would need ALOT!


That can't be right! What breed is she?

Here is what Katiefranke says: 
You need to feed approx 2-3% of their expected adult body weight (if still growing) per day, or of their ideal adult body weight (if they have stopped growing) per day.

2% would perhaps be for a dog with low exercise or overweight. 3%+ would be for a dog with high exercise daily, perhaps sports dogs and also puppies. Somewhere around 2.5% suits most average adult dogs. Large breeds have slower metabolisms so they tend to need the lower % and small breeds have a high metabolism so often need far more than 3% even.

My previous post should have said 10% of current weight! Duh! Facepalm! I based mine on about 3% of projected breed standard weight then upped it when I saw how tall they were getting.


----------



## suesdogs15

toryb said:


> Thank you for that...so if i go on 20kg for now and then pplay by ear. So that would be 2kg of RAW per day? that seems like an awful lot?
> Just trying to work out what I would need in a month and at 2kg a day i would need ALOT!


You need to be feeding approx 400 -420gms per day if you are going for 2-3% of her expected weight.


----------



## toryb

cinammontoast said:


> My previous post should have said 10% of current weight! Duh! Facepalm! I based mine on about 3% of projected breed standard weight then upped it when I saw how tall they were getting.


Ahhhh!! Now it all makes sense!!! :w00t: :lol: thank you!! She is a greyhoound x saluki and weighs 9.3kg at the moment!

Thank you both!!


----------



## LostGirl

How many grams would dogs around 30kg need?? 

We spend about £40 now so id like to keep it around that or under. But i really cant seem to get my head around it all i think i need a doggie chef lol or an idoits guide!


----------



## catsandcanines

Hello,

I have switched to raw feeding last year and back to a complete wet food as I wasn't confident in what I was doing & my vet said they should really be on a complete diet. He had never heard of prize choice so couldn't give me advice.

The dogs have now been on prize choice minced meat blocks for about 6 months now although I'm still a bit nervous about I want to carry on this time as I have done more research.

I have a few questions, hopefully some people can answer:-

I add 20% of blitzed veggies to the meat. Is 20% the correct amount to give in a 400 gram block?

Prize Choice say that it has 4g per 100g of bone in the mince. Is this enough to provide sufficient calcium?

Also the chicken (for example) has *crude* protein and fat. Does this mean the meat is rubbish?

The chickens analysis has 14.1% protein and 8.6% oil is this sufficient for 9 and 10 year old dogs?


----------



## catsandcanines

I posted above - does that diet seem nutrionally sound for my dogs?


----------



## pogo

catsandcanines said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have switched to raw feeding last year and back to a complete wet food as I wasn't confident in what I was doing & my vet said they should really be on a complete diet. He had never heard of prize choice so couldn't give me advice.
> 
> The dogs have now been on prize choice minced meat blocks for about 6 months now although I'm still a bit nervous about I want to carry on this time as I have done more research.
> 
> I have a few questions, hopefully some people can answer:-
> 
> I add 20% of blitzed veggies to the meat. Is 20% the correct amount to give in a 400 gram block?
> 
> Prize Choice say that it has 4g per 100g of bone in the mince. Is this enough to provide sufficient calcium?
> 
> Also the chicken (for example) has *crude* protein and fat. Does this mean the meat is rubbish?
> 
> The chickens analysis has 14.1% protein and 8.6% oil is this sufficient for 9 and 10 year old dogs?


If you feed a full raw diet of meat, bones and offal then it is a COMPLETE diet and don't let your vet put you off!

I don't add veggies as i personally believe that dogs don't need them and neither of my two will eat them anyway

I'm not sure by weight if thats enough calcium as i feed whole bones i'll leave that to someone else


----------



## catsandcanines

Thank you - my dogs have trouble with raw meaty bones so they have to have the minced version.


----------



## cinnamontoast

Troy Lawrence said:


> If you are going to feed raw to your pets...I would definitely recommend removing the Bacteria and enzymes 1st with OPURA!





Troy Lawrence said:


> Rinsing the raw meet with OPURA water will help remove the bacteria, enzymes and 75% of the pesticides.
> 
> Just a little something I discovered


Advert, reported.


----------



## AskieAmerEskimo

Wonderful thread!  I've learned a lot of things about raw feeding just by reading it.


----------



## rotts05

This thread is fantastic! I haven't been able to work my way through the full 100 pages yet but I will do! 

I have my 2 girls on Wainwrights and fancy trying adding some raw. They both have raw marrow bones just as a treat and both have had raw meat in the past so don't think they'll mind. 

I don't have freezer space for a full order from the online suppliers so will initially just see what I can get from butchers and supermarkets. 
What kind of things will butchers have that I can ask for? I know that sounds ridiculous as they'll have most things, but chicken necks? I have never seen them anywhere. I know supermarkets have the liver, kidneys etc but do they have the boney stuff? I don't want to go to the butchers and look a bit dim, so thought i'd do it here first


----------



## Dogless

rotts05 said:


> This thread is fantastic! I haven't been able to work my way through the full 100 pages yet but I will do!
> 
> I have my 2 girls on Wainwrights and fancy trying adding some raw. They both have raw marrow bones just as a treat and both have had raw meat in the past so don't think they'll mind.
> 
> I don't have freezer space for a full order from the online suppliers so will initially just see what I can get from butchers and supermarkets.
> What kind of things will butchers have that I can ask for? I know that sounds ridiculous as they'll have most things, but chicken necks? I have never seen them anywhere. I know supermarkets have the liver, kidneys etc but do they have the boney stuff? I don't want to go to the butchers and look a bit dim, so thought i'd do it here first


My butcher orders chicken necks from the abattoir for me, along with pretty much anything else I ask him to. He also saves scraps, chicken carcasses etc for me, free of charge. Just ask him what he could get for you and go from there - hopefully you'll be pleasantly surprised!!


----------



## rotts05

Ok, I have been reading some more and I've seen feeding a mixed diet of kibble and raw isn't a great idea. 

Could anyone help me work out what kind of portions I'd need to feed my girls? One is a rottie at about 35-38kg and a little lhasa cross at about 6kg. 

I have had a look but i'm struggling to get my head round it. Those of you with large dogs and small dogs what do you feed? 

Any help greatly appreciated.


----------



## catsandcanines

rotts05 said:


> Ok, I have been reading some more and I've seen feeding a mixed diet of kibble and raw isn't a great idea.
> 
> Could anyone help me work out what kind of portions I'd need to feed my girls? One is a rottie at about 35-38kg and a little lhasa cross at about 6kg.
> 
> I have had a look but i'm struggling to get my head round it. Those of you with large dogs and small dogs what do you feed?
> 
> Any help greatly appreciated.


I think its 2%-3% of your dogs body weight. There is an online calculation tool here: Calculate


----------



## Treacle1

Hi,

I don't weigh what I give my dog, I let him guide me to the right amount. If he's pestering for more then I give him some more but if he seems content that's fine. I feed him and what he doesn't eat in a reasonable amount of time I simply remove. Mine weighs about 12kg he'll eat about 1/2 a chicken carcass unless he's having a hungry day when he might have a bit more. I give him some minced beef with some heart mixed in or tripe (when I can stand the smell) for his breakfast and give him some liver once a week. He loves this but it tends to give him the runs. I've tried mixing it with egg but he just hates egg.:001_rolleyes:


----------



## peds

Morning everyone, 

I'm sure I've read it on here before and I've just done a search to the best of my abilities but I couldn't find anything... I'm sure that's a result of my failings, not that the information isn't there. Anyway, I was wondering if someone could answer a quick question - what can I work into the dog's diet to ward against worms, in the same manner as feeding garlic to help with fleas?

Many thanks chaps.


----------



## cinnamontoast

I think bone is supposed to help, but dont take that as gospel.


----------



## LucyAnnH

So glad I've found a community who speaks about BARF & raw with such enthusiasm - me and my partner have recently taken in a stray 5 month old kitty (who, after a bath and all treatments is doing really well!) and also have been able to move my pooch back into my house from my mums after a year of working out of town. I'll get to the point - I started feeding raw to the cat first as I read that the worst thing a cat can eat is carbs. I had only ever fed him wet and quickly changed this after reading about BARF. It dawned me that feeding animals processed food that can last for up to two to three years in a cupboard is terrible for their insides. 

A quick and simple recipe for cats and dogs

A block of rabbit, beef or chicken mince 
two hearts
a kidney
whole headless tinned pilchards (bones and all)
a cup of water

blend together, box up and freeze. When defrosted and ready to feed, add a cod liver oil capsule and half a crushed calcium tablet and a bit more water. For the dog food I add blended raw carrot.

Any tips would be great as I'm very much a raw newbie. I'm introducing bone-in meat this week!


----------



## Cindygirl1

Hi all. I need advise about raw feeding please.  I have a 9 month collie, and started raw feeding about 4 weeks Ago, I'm feeding her the mince with bone in from raw to go. My girl will only eat the chicken or turkey, she'd wont come near if I put red meats or tripe or hearts. I want to start giving bones for 1 of her meals but will that be too much none content each day, and is it a problem she only eats chicken and turkey. I am so confused and hope someone with experience can help.


----------



## Goldstar

Cindygirl1 said:


> Hi all. I need advise about raw feeding please. I have a 9 month collie, and started raw feeding about 4 weeks Ago, I'm feeding her the mince with bone in from raw to go. My girl will only eat the chicken or turkey, she'd wont come near if I put red meats or tripe or hearts. I want to start giving bones for 1 of her meals but will that be too much none content each day, and is it a problem she only eats chicken and turkey. I am so confused and hope someone with experience can help.


I am not 100% sure but I think she will likely need some red meat in her diet at one point, although as you have said, she has only been on raw for 4 weeks so plenty of time to introduce red meat and organs. I feed mine hearts as her red meat. Not much help really as I dont know how to encourage her to eat other meats, my dog has always been a gannet 

You can dertermine how much bone to give by her poop, if it's white and dusty then you are giving too much bone, if it's runny then not enough bone.


----------



## sharpeicross

rotts05 said:


> Ok, I have been reading some more and I've seen feeding a mixed diet of kibble and raw isn't a great idea.
> 
> Could anyone help me work out what kind of portions I'd need to feed my girls? One is a rottie at about 35-38kg and a little lhasa cross at about 6kg.
> 
> I have had a look but i'm struggling to get my head round it. Those of you with large dogs and small dogs what do you feed?
> 
> Any help greatly appreciated.


What I've had to stop myself doing is being tempted to feed them the same amount, when considering one is 31kg and the other 15kg, is a very bad idea:sad:

But, my small one eats much quicker then my big one, and when she is finished she gives him this look:drool:

However, I do make sure I only give her half of what I give my big boy


----------



## Andromeda

I'm bought chest freezer and that is mean less mince for my dogs. When I fed them with mince I could easily split their daily portions on half and fed them 2 a day. Because of their size my dogs should eat 400g of meat each and I have to say that 200g in any chunks looks awful small. 
Question is how many times per day I should feed them?

Twice or once? Any advice, please?


----------



## suesdogs15

I think it is a personal choice, I feed mine twice as they would still pester me for food if I fed them only once.


----------



## Barkley Star

Just checking: If you feed a mince that has the proper balance between bone, meat and offal some meals a week, do you then disregard those meals and balance the other meals according to the 80:10:10 ratio?


----------



## pogo

I try not to feed mince at all, but yes i suppose you could just balance the remaining meals. Don't forget you don't need to balance the ratios over a day or week but over a longer period which is ALOT easier, for example my boys meals are balanced over a 2ish month period


----------



## GoldenShadow

Barkley Star said:


> Just checking: If you feed a mince that has the proper balance between bone, meat and offal some meals a week, do you then disregard those meals and balance the other meals according to the 80:10:10 ratio?


I wouldn't get too hung up on it. I don't actually know of any minces that have the recommended amount of liver and kidney in anyway. DAF were only 1% liver supposedly which is too low.

My dogs get 5% liver and 5% kidney a week, eating 600g a day (2% for their weight) would be 210g a week. They generally get around that, sometimes they get up to 260g, sometimes as low as 180g, depends how big the packs I get from the shop are.

Dogs didn't have specific vitamin and nutrient requirements, they're really just a guideline of what we think they need to remain in optimum condition but nothing is exactly factual for every single animal, it will all vary.


----------



## toffee44

With regards to ratios, I get everything I need in at the beginning of the month knowing that when they have more or less cleared the freezer they have had everything they need. Offal I think mine sometimes have too little. In the week they have a couple of Kidneys and then every two-three weeks they get a whole pig pluck(heart, lung, trachea, kidney, pancreas, liver) although I chop the liver in half and freeze (have lots of liver in my freezer now lol).
Can make their bums a bit loose but not enought for me to worry about. I try to make them have boney days either side.

I only feed mince because I know the guy who makes them only uses wings, necks and carcass which are things I would normally feed over a day so tend not worry about balancing the next day. (mince for me is a quick easy hastle free meal for OH to feed and if we are in a hurry etc they have it twice a week).


I tend to feed mine once a day in the evening 2 hours post walk all 1.2kg of it. Mainly because they are on the go alot in the day. So would rather they eat lots and sleep than eat lots and run about all day.


----------



## Tapir

Do dogs on a new to Raw tend to get a funny tummy? Coco has been eating kibble for breakfast and raw for tea for about a month and I switched her to full raw about 4 days ago. She has had a runny tummy for about a week, sometimes it is yellow and mucusy, sometimes just mucus. Is this normal?


----------



## pogo

No they don't but dogs need to get over the transition to raw, some take to it better then others.

Don't forget to start with one protein at a time, and add others in slowly.


----------



## thedogsmother

One of the dogs has been sick for the last two nights, it isnt a lot but its got a fair bit of bone in it, Ive heard that this isnt unusual in the beginning, should I be worried or doing something different. The other thing thats a bit worrying is that Bella still isnt a huge fan, she looks so dissapointed when I put her bowl down, she eats every scrap though, its just that she isnt diving in like she did with her dried food. Although on the plus side she was always searching for food when she finished her dry as if she hadnt had enough, she wasnt underweight so she was being given enough.


----------



## babycham2002

thedogsmother said:


> One of the dogs has been sick for the last two nights, it isnt a lot but its got a fair bit of bone in it, Ive heard that this isnt unusual in the beginning, should I be worried or doing something different. The other thing thats a bit worrying is that Bella still isnt a huge fan, she looks so dissapointed when I put her bowl down, she eats every scrap though, its just that she isnt diving in like she did with her dried food. Although on the plus side she was always searching for food when she finished her dry as if she hadnt had enough, she wasnt underweight so she was being given enough.


the sickness is totally normal and will stop soon enough

I dunno about the not being excited part that is unusual lol, maybe it just doesnt smell as good? perhaps the dry and something herby in it? 
Im glad she is feeling more full, that is good news


----------



## TerrierGreg

I've only just started out feeding my dog on a raw food diet to see if we can finally rid his awful itchy skin and right now am doing the super cautious approach - 1/2 raw meat with mixed veggies and 1/2 cereal free kibble. I tried him with an RMB a couple of days ago, but being a terrier, he made shearing massive lumps of it look very easy and for my own piece of mind and veterinary nurse paranoia, I would rather he goes without. 
Do you have any experience with any other bone/calcium source that provides similar? I've heard some people bake & grind egg shells or cuttlefish.... 
Thank you!!


----------



## Skandi

Ok so I have a mixed breed pup (Lab/BC) who atm weighs 8kg at 12 weeks. she's on halls perscription atm due to a runny tummy, which she loves but as it's so soft her ration is gone in about 10 seconds, and she's back pestering for more. She comes off this in 2 days and I would like to change her to raw.

Now I have no clue how heavy she's going to turn out when full grown, I guess anywhere from 17kg to 30kg which is rather a lot of variation! I think the lower end as she's starting to look more and more leggy collie and less lab but who knows. 

So any ideas how much she would need to eat?


----------



## thedogsmother

Skandi said:


> Ok so I have a mixed breed pup (Lab/BC) who atm weighs 8kg at 12 weeks. she's on halls perscription atm due to a runny tummy, which she loves but as it's so soft her ration is gone in about 10 seconds, and she's back pestering for more. She comes off this in 2 days and I would like to change her to raw.
> 
> Now I have no clue how heavy she's going to turn out when full grown, I guess anywhere from 17kg to 30kg which is rather a lot of variation! I think the lower end as she's starting to look more and more leggy collie and less lab but who knows.
> 
> So any ideas how much she would need to eat?


Im new to raw feeding but Ive looked through this whole thread (took me a couple of days ) and Im pretty sure for a puppy that its either 2-3% of their estimate ideal body weight when fully grown or 10% of their current weight per day, obviously for a puppy that would be in more than one meal.


----------



## Skandi

thedogsmother said:


> Im new to raw feeding but Ive looked through this whole thread (took me a couple of days ) and Im pretty sure for a puppy that its either 2-3% of their estimate ideal body weight when fully grown or 10% of their current weight per day, obviously for a puppy that would be in more than one meal.


Yes that's what I had read but those 2 figures work out very different!

10% of her current weight is 800g where as if I assume a 20kg adult then 2.5% of that is 500g
800g just seems rather too much if she was adult I would just go for the 2.5 and see what happened to her weight, but right now urgh lol


----------



## thedogsmother

Skandi said:


> Yes that's what I had read but those 2 figures work out very different!
> 
> 10% of her current weight is 800g where as if I assume a 20kg adult then 2.5% of that is 500g
> 800g just seems rather too much if she was adult I would just go for the 2.5 and see what happened to her weight, but right now urgh lol


 I find it hard enough to work my two out and they are adults so I dont envy you having to do the maths on that one, hopefully someone used to feeding pups will be along to help soon.


----------



## Jacquelinemary

Re feeding puppies - here are 2 sites that may help. Loads of interesting facts on these sites about pet diet and health in general, take the time to look around them if possible.

K9 Natural | Best Raw Dog Food for Healthy Dogs put puppies in the search box - will bring up lots of advice about what and how much to feed puppies ( not _just_ k9natural ! )

Do You Know What to Feed Your Large or Giant Breed Puppy?


----------



## Barkley Star

With my order of minces and "parts", I got a bag of chichen feet (or turkey? they are huge!). :001_unsure: How do you give them? As extra bone, or as a treat, or what? And how often?


----------



## pogo

I give feet/heads etc as treats personally


----------



## thedogsmother

Ive got some chicken livers today, I was planning on adding it to their other food but Henrick has had an upset stomach with liver in the past, I think it was because I gave him too much (I was using it as training treats), I was just wondering how much I should give them when introducing them to it.


----------



## pogo

Best way to introduce it, is to add it in with their meals at about a thumbnail sized piece and work up from there


----------



## thedogsmother

Thanks pogo, Ive popped a tiny piece in their dinner tonight so fingers crossed we dont have a midnight toilet call


----------



## fogy

Brilliant link, i'd love to feed my dog fresh vegetables and cook them myself. One problem i'm a strict veggie and can't touch a chunk of meat without squirming.
Can you feed fresh veg as well as kibble?
I know a vegan fed dog, not so sure i agree but it's healthy and fine.


----------



## pogo

You can feed veg along side kibble, but don't forget dogs are carnivores so don't need or get much from veg at all. Alot give it to bulk up meals, and as their dogs seem to enjoy it, my two detest veggies so are on a prey model raw diet.

Also no i don't agree with a vegan diet for dogs


----------



## CJM06

Hello,

I'm new to this forum, and new to raw diets. My Golden retriever, Amber, who's just turned a year old decided a couple of months ago that she didn't want to eat her usual food anymore. She point blank refused to eat any kibble if presented to her alone, she'd eat some of it if it was mixed with cooked chicken or fish but mealtimes became a battle. I had been thinking about a raw diet for awhile so trawled the internet for any information and to be quite honest was a little frightened of swapping to it. Yesterday I took the plunge completely and offered Amber a whole chicken leg including the thigh, stood back and waited. The chicken was received with a wagging tail and after she realised that she was not allowed out of the kitchen with it, she settled down and munched her way through it. So now I think we're converted to a diet. My question is, is it ok to mix her between things like chicken, lamb, offal etc and the pre-prepared stuff supplied by people like Natural Instinct? I'm a little concerned that she won't get everything she needs from just the meat alone and would need the extra stuff that is in the natural instinct, stuff like fruit and veg and fish oil? 

Please forgive me if this question has been asked before.

Chris


----------



## DirtyGertie

CJM06 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm new to this forum, and new to raw diets. My Golden retriever, Amber, who's just turned a year old decided a couple of months ago that she didn't want to eat her usual food anymore. She point blank refused to eat any kibble if presented to her alone, she'd eat some of it if it was mixed with cooked chicken or fish but mealtimes became a battle. I had been thinking about a raw diet for awhile so trawled the internet for any information and to be quite honest was a little frightened of swapping to it. Yesterday I took the plunge completely and offered Amber a whole chicken leg including the thigh, stood back and waited. The chicken was received with a wagging tail and after she realised that she was not allowed out of the kitchen with it, she settled down and munched her way through it. So now I think we're converted to a diet. My question is, is it ok to mix her between things like chicken, lamb, offal etc and the pre-prepared stuff supplied by people like Natural Instinct? I'm a little concerned that she won't get everything she needs from just the meat alone and would need the extra stuff that is in the natural instinct, stuff like fruit and veg and fish oil?
> 
> Please forgive me if this question has been asked before.
> 
> Chris


Best thing you can do is go back to the first post in this thread and start working your way through reading it, it is a mine of information and will help you get started.

Basically start with one meat, chicken is the norm and you've discovered that Amber likes that. Stick with chicken for a week or so then add in one more meat. So chicken and the new meat a few times for a further week or so. If no adverse effects from the new meat then you can add in another, and so on. Just give each new meat time, around a week, so that you can see if it suits. Leave offal until later and then add just a very small amount to begin with and build up the amount of no loose stools etc. Don't forget to get the ratio of meat/bone/offal correct once you're fully converted but it doesn't have to be on a daily basis. I work mine out over a 10 or 20 day period, bag up that number of days and store in the freezer.

You'll need to work out what is the right amount for Amber, usually 2% - 3% of adult body weight but would need tweaking depending on individual dog. Poppy is 5.3 kg and needs 3% to keep her weight stable so is on 160g per day. Doesn't look much but it is the right amount. You can also add blended veggies if you like, some dogs like them, some don't. If Amber likes them it bulks the meals out. There's a great thread about blended veggies which you'll see as you read through.

Also look at the thread What's in the bowl today for some meal ideas once you've got a variety of meats.

It's fine to use commercial raw alongside the chicken etc. Poppy usually has a DAF raw mince for breakfast and her tea is chicken wings two out of three days and some sort of meat chunks on the third day. A special treat which she loves is tinned pilchards in tomato sauce which she gets every 2 or 3 weeks. She also gets some fruit, maybe with some live natural yogurt, as a treat, she particularly likes banana but apple and satsumas go down well too.

Just take time to read the thread and lots of your questions will be answered. Anything you're unsure about come back and ask.


----------



## Born2BWild

Hello.

I have recently converted to raw feeding, all going great, so far I'm still in week one so still feeding chicken breast, legs, wings , mince, carcass, veg BUT is there such thing as the BARF BLUES lmao...a bit like baby blues when you've had a baby I guess as now I keep wondering if I'm doing the right thing...I did the stupid thing and started reading stories on google of dogs dying from choking on bone or splintering and cutting bowels and intestine and dogs dying and I am now panicking! What bones are more prone to splinter? What would you say are the "safest" bones to give? I'm ok giving raw and they are loving it and enjoy giving the meat chunks and minces but the minute I get to feeding bones I go into panic as I can't see what it's doing on the inside. 

I would like to also thank everyone on here who has helped me as your advice has helped me millions to get started on this diet, i just seem to be suffering with the "BARF blues" at the moment and keep questioning whether I should go back on to kibble...

HELP!


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## Sarahferret

I have days where I worry I'm doing it wrong too, and I've been doing it a year now! My problem is I over-read, and keep finding conflicting opinions on what is the 'correct' way of doing it. I keep going back to the 'What's in the Bowl Today?' thread. Best thing I've found on raw feeding, a great place for inspiration and reassurance about what is OK to feed.

However, what I would say is DON'T PANIC ABOUT BONES! The only bones to be afraid of are cooked bones. Its also best to avoid large weight bearing bones (like a cow leg) as they could bee too hard and cause teeth to crack (but that's really not as common as scare-mongerers would like you to think!).

Until you are sure your dogs are chewing and crunching properly, you can hold onto the bone, however, if you are feeding large enough pieces that they can't swallow whole that won't be necessary either.


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## Born2BWild

Sarahferret said:


> I have days where I worry I'm doing it wrong too, and I've been doing it a year now! My problem is I over-read, and keep finding conflicting opinions on what is the 'correct' way of doing it. I keep going back to the 'What's in the Bowl Today?' thread. Best thing I've found on raw feeding, a great place for inspiration and reassurance about what is OK to feed.
> 
> However, what I would say is DON'T PANIC ABOUT BONES! The only bones to be afraid of are cooked bones. Its also best to avoid large weight bearing bones (like a cow leg) as they could bee too hard and cause teeth to crack (but that's really not as common as scare-mongerers would like you to think!).
> 
> Until you are sure your dogs are chewing and crunching properly, you can hold onto the bone, however, if you are feeding large enough pieces that they can't swallow whole that won't be necessary either.


Ok, thank you for your quick response. I just suddenly started feeling unsure and questioning if I'm doing the right thing for my dogs...I think it's all down to fear of doing it wrong... xx


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## Goblin

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/185367-bad-raw-experiences.html may be worth reading. It was a thread to answer just that question. Strange how all these horror stories seem never to be first hand experience.


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## thedogsmother

I just got some plaice from Tescos and I was bagging it up for the dogs, then I gave them a bit. Now its just occurred to me that it was fresh, I didnt freeze it like I know you have to for the dogs, can they get poorly from it? It was only a tiny bit of it off the end of the fillet. On a side note I got it free since they mischarged me and when I complained I got my money back and the fish free (I did my happy dance, it wasnt pretty )


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## pogo

thedogsmother said:


> I just got some plaice from Tescos and I was bagging it up for the dogs, then I gave them a bit. Now its just occurred to me that it was fresh, I didnt freeze it like I know you have to for the dogs, can they get poorly from it? It was only a tiny bit of it off the end of the fillet. On a side note I got it free since they mischarged me and when I complained I got my money back and the fish free (I did my happy dance, it wasnt pretty )


Don't worry i feed fresh fish ALOT


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## Skandi

Ok so started my 4month old pup on raw 3 days ago, good things, a lot less poo/farts and smell..

Now for some advice please. she's eating chicken leg quarters, (the kind with the backbone in too) and her stools are very hard, she had trouble passing one yesterday, gave her a fairly large piece of liver after that and this mornings was slightly softer. However that amount of liver would be way over the % of ofal so can't keep on doing that. would taking some of the bones out help? (I know 10% eventually but most advice seemed to be for more to begin with) or will it just settle down (btw no pieces of bone visible in the stools)

PS stools coming in little balls not "sausage" shape)


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## MyMillie

katiefranke said:


> *Pictures and preparation tips*
> 
> Ok some piccies of typical meals in my house!
> 
> Take one whole chicken:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and cut off leg & thigh 1/4 and wing with some breast 1/4:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then if it is a decent size chicken you can get some meat off the breast for a meal too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I cut off the wing tips for a treat for the cats!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the meaty carcass can make a decent boney meal too;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *( quoted part of your post
> 
> But wanted to say WOW!! what an excellent diet your dogs have :thumbsup:...just one question! can me and my Millie come to live with you?
> BUT I want mine cooked ....
> 
> On a serious note I have been pondering on the raw diet for Millie lately as I just know in my heart that feeding my beloved Dylan on kibble may have had a part in him getting Diabetes at the age of 2  I searched for best diet for him but the Vet advised me not to change his diet as it could make his condition worse  in hind sight I should have gone to different Vet.... but anyway,like many people, very nervous to try it with my 5mth old Millie
> 
> *


----------



## abbie n titch n smudgy

Hi 
Just wondering if anyone could help . As my vet doesnt agree with raw feeding they havnt been much help . 
I am considering changing my two terriers diet as they r not keen on dry food . So at the moment I cook there meals . 
My question my jack russell has a sensitive belly . He cant eat beef without having the runs . So I am a bit worried about feeding him raw meat . Any advice ? Im abit apprehensive about it . Many thanks


----------



## SLB

abbie n titch n smudgy said:


> Hi
> Just wondering if anyone could help . As my vet doesnt agree with raw feeding they havnt been much help .
> I am considering changing my two terriers diet as they r not keen on dry food . So at the moment I cook there meals .
> My question my jack russell has a sensitive belly . He cant eat beef without having the runs . So I am a bit worried about feeding him raw meat . Any advice ? Im abit apprehensive about it . Many thanks


Just don't feed him beef? The best thing about raw is you know exactly what is going into your dog


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## Coffee

Hi 

I've been asked to add my experience with Raw feeding onto this thread as I own a Dalmatian and for anyone that doesn't know, Dallies are not supposed to eat any offal at all as offal meat contains high levels of purines which Dallies are supposed to avoid as they can not break down purines the way other dogs can and this can lead to them (worst case scenario) developing urinary stones, which can then go on to block up the bladder, stopping the dog from urinating and obviously I don't have to say what a serious, life threatening condition that could be 

More here:

British Dalmatian Club - Urinary Stones

Despite this, I have decided to change Alfie over to a Raw diet - we are in the process of doing this now and I had originally decided I was going to actually just completely leave out the 5% offal from his diet. I had weighed up the risks in my mind and was more comfortable with the thought of him possibly missing out on certain nutrients than I was with the thought of him developing urinary stones.

However... I believe I have just come to the realisation of a rather fabulous compromise  :idea:

I *am* going to feed Alfie the 5% offal (eventually of course, we're only just starting out and I'm aware it shouldn't be introduced for a while) but to keep my mind at rest I am going to keep a very close eye on the PH levels of his urine with the aid of PH Test Strips (Litmus Paper strips) and as long as his levels stay within the safe range I can continue with peace of mind 

Dalmatian Club of America - Dipsticking to Monitor Stone-Forming Dalmatians

Of course, if those PH levels do indicate his urine is starting to get too alkiline then I will have to reconsider my decision to feed offal and take it from there.

I hope this might prove a helpful post to any other Dalmatian owners who want to feed Raw but who, like me, were or are worried about the issues surrounding offal for our spotty friends


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## Coffee

Well, it's just taken me the best part of 2 days but I have finally read this thread from start to finish 

What a fantastic read and I would recommend anyone thinking of changing to Raw to pull up a chair, get the kettle on and get stuck into this thread from the beginning 

I can't wait to get properly started now :thumbup: Alfie has had 4 raw dinners (2 chicken legs each time) now in the last week and a bit and if his enthusiasm from eating those is anything to go by he'll be as excited as me :lol: 

I don't know if it's wishful thinking on my part but I'm sure I can see the benefits already... his coat is softer, his breath is fresher and his poos are 100% better  Will be off to chat up my local butcher tomorrow to see what he can get/provide  He already does bags of raw bones for 20p a go and he has a sign up outside his shop with a small selection of "Pet Items" (tripe, pet mince, marrowbones etc) so I'm hopeful he might be able to help me out with carcasses, chicken necks etc...


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## Dizzy Grace

I have a question which may/may not be obviously answered somewhere, but I understand carcasses etc contain more than the 10% bone and it's necessary to up the meat content, but how do you go about doing that? A lot of the minces seem to be with the 1:1:8 ratio already, so I assume not a suitable top up. Would it literally be buying meat without bones or removing meat from bones yourself? Sorry may be a silly question, but was planning diet and wondered how to work around that.


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## Sarahferret

If you were wanting to up the meat content, then it would be easiest to give meat off the bone. I don't worry about it as I work roughly to the ratio over a week, so If I feed carcass or something else bone heavy one day, I'll feed less bone other days.


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## DirtyGertie

The 10% bone doesn't have to be accurate to the nnnnnnnnnnth degree. I'm sure Poppy doesn't get exactly 10%, it's probably not possible to work it out exactly. Poop watching will be a good guide. Hard to pass, crumbly - too much bone. Not firm enough - too little bone.

I use the 80/10/10 minces for half of Poppy's diet so she gets that for breakfast most days. For the evening meals she gets chicken wing or necks two out of three days (or lamb ribs if I can get them). The other meals made up of meat only I use poultry chunks, heart chunks, tripe chunks, sometimes pork.


----------



## teamtorquesteer

Ive been thinking about a part raw diet for my Springer for some time.

I admit I havent ploughed through all 105 pages of this thread but would a 50/50 kibble (JWB) and raw be okay.
Ive read you shouldnt mix the two together but was thinking of kibble in the morning and chicken carcass in the evening from time to time.

Thoughts/comments appreciated.

Martin


----------



## Pindonkey

I am planning to start my beagle on a raw diet early next week,monday hopefully. 

I have done reseach over the past 6 months in general on dog foods,and before that i did lots on raw. 

So i have now found out how to make raw work for us and thats all fine so i can go ahead with it. 

Oscar has had raw meals before and gets raw bones,usually chicken,about twice a week so i don't suspect any difficulty changing him over. 

I am however a little stuck for meals. I am sticking to chicken for the first 2 weeks,maybe longer but it depends how he takes it,so my question is do you have any ideas for meals. My only ideas are chicken breast with some legs or drumsticks or somehting like chicken quarters(i will buy whole chickens) 
And maybe chicken carcases every 3 days or so. 

Is there anything else i could try or is that just fine like that? 



I will admit i did not read all the thread,i read to page 14 then i read pages 55 to 58 and now i am here.:wink5:


----------



## DirtyGertie

Pindonkey said:


> I am planning to start my beagle on a raw diet early next week,monday hopefully.
> 
> I have done reseach over the past 6 months in general on dog foods,and before that i did lots on raw.
> 
> So i have now found out how to make raw work for us and thats all fine so i can go ahead with it.
> 
> Oscar has had raw meals before and gets raw bones,usually chicken,about twice a week so i don't suspect any difficulty changing him over.
> 
> I am however a little stuck for meals. I am sticking to chicken for the first 2 weeks,maybe longer but it depends how he takes it,so my question is do you have any ideas for meals. My only ideas are chicken breast with some legs or drumsticks or somehting like chicken quarters(i will buy whole chickens)
> And maybe chicken carcases every 3 days or so.
> 
> Is there anything else i could try or is that just fine like that?
> 
> I will admit i did not read all the thread,i read to page 14 then i read pages 55 to 58 and now i am here.:wink5:


Take a look at this thread, lots of ideas from lots of raw feeders.


----------



## Snoopcousins

Hi, new member, just read all 105 pages and firstly big thanks to all...it's been a massive help to me!

Ive been feeding my 9.5 month male Rottie pup this diet now for 4 weeks and im loving it nearly as much as he is! 

He's a very lean 45kg and I'm guessing he will be around 60kg when adult...

I'm feeding him around 1.3kg - 1.5kg per day, would this be about right?

Also if I give my rough diet plan can I get some feedback? And let me know if it would be close enough to the 80:10:10? 

2 meals per day, approx 750g meaty bone in am and 750g meat only in pm...so for eg

Meaty bone meals would be things like Ox-tail, pork ribs, lamb shank, 1/2 whole chicken, turkey drumstick.
I live in NI and sourcing from butchers and Tesco mainly, I'd live to get rabbit but are these ok to base it on until I get more variety?

Meat only meals then would be something like piece of Ox-Tongue, slab of pork loin, Lamb breast.
What other cheap decent meats cud I get from tesco or butcher?
I will try and get heart this week too...

One big favour to ask...

Can someone please list the approx bone:meat percentage ratios for the RMB's I've mentioned and a few other common ones like carcasses etc? That would be a massive help in working out the 10% bone...

My Rottie, Elvis, loves his meals now, he was a real grazer with kibble and rarely ate his meal in one sitting, now he can't get enough! He's also lost that pongy dog smell and his breath has no odour!
I have to give his meaty meals frozen now sometimes as was devouring 750g slabs of meat in 5-10 mins!

Thanks..I'm sure il have more questions tho!


----------



## Snoopcousins

Oh I forgot to mention I DO give around 700g of Offal per week split into a few small meals during the week.


----------



## Sarahferret

Snoop Cousins, what you are feeding looks pretty good to me. I wouldn't worry about the % of bone in the RMBs. Just use your common sense and monitor pooh. If pooh becomes too hard/crumbly, feed something less boney the following day. A carcass is obviously more bone/less meat than half a chicken. the percentages are a guide, not a rule, so don't stress about that


----------



## Snoopcousins

Sarahferret said:


> Snoop Cousins, what you are feeding looks pretty good to me. I wouldn't worry about the % of bone in the RMBs. Just use your common sense and monitor pooh. If pooh becomes too hard/crumbly, feed something less boney the following day. A carcass is obviously more bone/less meat than half a chicken. the percentages are a guide, not a rule, so don't stress about that


Thanks Sarah...

Managed to source a farm shop/butchers than can sort me out with FREE chicken carcasses, turkey necks (with heads) AND turkey backs today!! :thumbup:

If I incorporate the carcasses/ backs and necks into his diet/menu how will these effect it as they are Very bony?? They are obviously much bonier than his usual meal of ribs or 1/2 chicken etc?
How much would you give him as part of his 1.5kg/day total?


----------



## Sarahferret

I don't know how much the things you got today weigh, But I would say here are your options - use pooh observation to decide which to go for!
1) Feed as you usually feed bone meals
2) Add a little extra meat as well when you feed it as a meal
3) the day after you feed a carcass feed meat only.


----------



## Snoopcousins

If giving a meal of fish like sardines would that be classed as a meaty bone meal or mainly meat?!

Would sardines be 10% bone and 10% offal too?


----------



## pogo

I class them as meat only, i don't count them in bone or offal as the amount is tiny


----------



## edrei

These are very informative thread about dog food. For my pet dog, I will try to feed him the veggie mix. I hope that he would like it.

wish me luck.


----------



## Snoopcousins

Heres my current 2 week meal plan;

Everyday has also on average 150g Offal

AM Turkey Drumstick 700g
PM Pork Loin 700g
AM Pork Ribs 700g
PM Ox Heart 300g, Sardines 400g
AM Turkey Leg 950g
PM Ox Heart 450g
AM Pork Ribs 600g
PM Pork Shoulder (always boneless) 900g
AM Chicken Carcus 900g
PM Sardines 500g
AM Turkey Back 600g
PM Ox Heart 700g
AM Turkey Leg 950g
PM Pork Shoulder 400g

AM Pork Belly Ribs 950g
PM Sardines 500g
AM Turkey Neck/ Head 450g
PM Ox Heart 800g
AM Ox Tail 700g
PM Pork Shoulder 700g
AM Chicken Carcus 750g
PM Ox Tongue 700g
AM Chicken Wings 550g
PM Ox Heart 800g
AM Ox Tail 700g
PM Pork Shoulder 700g
AM Pork Belly Ribs 750g
PM Sardines 650g
AM 1/2 Whole Chicken 750g
PM Ox Tongue 700g

He has been on similar to this last few weeks and his poo's seem to change daily from being a quite soft to quite chalky?
They also change colour or have quite a mixture of colours, and a lot of black? Is this normal??

Any comments on this menu plan are welcome!! Im still trying to get to grips with it!


----------



## Snoopcousins

Oh and heres a wee pic of Elvis!


----------



## DirtyGertie

Snoopcousins said:


> He has been on similar to this last few weeks and his poo's seem to change daily from being a quite soft to quite chalky?
> They also change colour or have quite a mixture of colours, and a lot of black? Is this normal??
> 
> Any comments on this menu plan are welcome!! Im still trying to get to grips with it!


Poppy's poos are a mixture of colours too. Darker when she has offal - can be almost black, lighter when she has chicken - can be quite yellowy, sometimes we have multicolour poos . I'm still trying to work out what the quite bright green one was recently .

Change in texture is probably just down to the actual amount of bone given on any particular day.

Not sure how long you've been feeding raw but the menu has a nice mixture.

I had some piggy parts on order for today from a free range pig farm but the lady didn't turn up at the market. Hopefully she'll get in touch soon as I've got some tongue, trotter, ear, tail, ribs and meat scraps to come. I do use some DAF minces to give variety that I couldn't get otherwise, e.g. rabbit, venison, duck, tripe and tripe mixes, plus they've recently added pheasant.


----------



## Snoopcousins

DirtyGertie said:


> Poppy's poos are a mixture of colours too. Darker when she has offal - can be almost black, lighter when she has chicken - can be quite yellowy, sometimes we have multicolour poos . I'm still trying to work out what the quite bright green one was recently .
> 
> Change in texture is probably just down to the actual amount of bone given on any particular day.
> 
> Not sure how long you've been feeding raw but the menu has a nice mixture.
> 
> I had some piggy parts on order for today from a free range pig farm but the lady didn't turn up at the market. Hopefully she'll get in touch soon as I've got some tongue, trotter, ear, tail, ribs and meat scraps to come. I do use some DAF minces to give variety that I couldn't get otherwise, e.g. rabbit, venison, duck, tripe and tripe mixes, plus they've recently added pheasant.


Hes been on the Raw diet for about 6 weeks before I started this current menu... Hes been acustomed to all the different meats already and no diaherea etc...

Is it not better to give whole meats rather than minces..for their teeth and breath etc?
I dont give Elvis mince tho just because he eats 600g of it in a matter of seconds!

I give him a lot of his meals frozen or partially frozen to lengthen the time it takes him to eat it...he can eat 1/2 a whole chickenn(800g) in 5 mins!


----------



## DirtyGertie

Snoopcousins said:


> Is it not better to give whole meats rather than minces..for their teeth and breath etc?
> I dont give Elvis mince tho just because he eats 600g of it in a matter of seconds!


I don't give 100% minces, no more than 50% is mince. I live in a fairly rural area with only a Co-op supermarket and one not particularly cheap butcher - a lamb breast, 500g, recently cost me £2.99 and they only do salt marsh lamb at the moment. There's no opportunity for any discounted meat here like, say, Morrisons do. So the only way I can get a good variety is to include some minces.

Her breath is absolutely fine and her teeth are kept wonderfully clean from the bones that are part of her "menu" and she also has stag bars. She has lamb breast, lamb ribs, chicken wings, chicken necks, turkey chunks, chicken chunks, tripe chunks, tinned fish, fresh fish, heart, liver, kidney. I am adding the piggy parts when I can get them from the farm.

She's been fed raw for over a year now, never had smelly breath and never has wind, her poops are exactly how a raw fed dog's should be - small, firm and virtually no smell.

She is only 5kg so only has roughly between 150g and 160g daily. I can get between 5 and 6 meals from one 1lb pack so an average meal would be around 15p. I've lost my local DAF supplier so will now have to use another of their distributors (DAF themselves don't deliver to where I live) and pay the carriage charge which will knock the price up to approx 20p per meal but still very reasonable I think for the variety that she will get.

So for us adding in a certain amount of minces works well for my pocket and the variety which I couldn't otherwise get and I don't believe there's any downside to not feeding her just on whole meats.


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## Snoopcousins

DirtyGertie said:


> I don't give 100% minces, no more than 50% is mince. I live in a fairly rural area with only a Co-op supermarket and one not particularly cheap butcher - a lamb breast, 500g, recently cost me £2.99 and they only do salt marsh lamb at the moment. There's no opportunity for any discounted meat here like, say, Morrisons do. So the only way I can get a good variety is to include some minces.
> 
> Her breath is absolutely fine and her teeth are kept wonderfully clean from the bones that are part of her "menu" and she also has stag bars. She has lamb breast, lamb ribs, chicken wings, chicken necks, turkey chunks, chicMken chunks, tripe chunks, tinned fish, fresh fish, heart, liver, kidney. I am adding the piggy parts when I can get them from the farm.
> 
> She's been fed raw for over a year now, never had smelly breath and never
> has wind, her poops are exactly how a raw fed dog's should be - small, firm and virtually no smell.
> 
> She is only 5kg so only has roughly between 150g and 160g daily. I can get between 5 and 6 meals from one 1lb pack so an average meal would be around 15p. I've lost my local DAF supplier so will now have to use another of their distributors (DAF themselves don't deliver to where I live) and pay the carriage charge which will knock the price up to approx 20p per meal but still very reasonable I think for the variety that she will get.
> 
> So for us adding in a certain amount of minces works well for my pocket and the variety which I couldn't otherwise get and I don't believe there's any downside to not feeding her just on whole meats.


I wasn't being critical!
I was just wondering from reading something Here...
I just don't feed him minces coz he seriously eats 700g in seconds, unless I frooze it..
Feeding 1.5 kg per day can be v expensive if it's not planned! Thankfully I get free meaty chicken carcasses and free turkey wings and necks etc..


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## DirtyGertie

Snoopcousins said:


> *I wasn't being critical!*I was just wondering from reading something Here...
> I just don't feed him minces coz he seriously eats 700g in seconds, unless I frooze it..
> Feeding 1.5 kg per day can be v expensive if it's not planned! Thankfully I get free meaty chicken carcasses and free turkey wings and necks etc..


I didn't think you were . I hope my reply didn't imply that was how I took it . I was just answering your query of whether it was better to give whole meats rather than minces and why I do it my way, plus the fact that teeth, breath, etc., are fine when feeding her that way. If I had a better access to a supply of a variety of meats I might not feed minces myself. Once I get the piggy parts properly organised and hopefully on a regular basis then I think the proportion of meat:mince should increase, although they do supply a lot of their not-for-humans pork to some fox hounds locally so I'll have to make sure she saves some for me. I can't afford to keep getting lamb breast at £6 a kilo but don't mind buying it occasionally for an extra special treat.

My son killed a sheep the other day (accidentally, the car in front of him made 3 sheep scatter from the road, unfortunately one ended up in front of his car  ), my first question to him was not "Are you OK" but "Did you bring it home for Poppy" . That's probably how most raw feeders start to think after a while .

There's many of us raw feeders on here, some feed minces, some don't, some feed prey, some feed BARF, some don't see the point of including veg and some include it regularly. There probably isn't a way that suits everyone for whatever reason. As long as there's variety and balance and the dog does well on it then whichever method is used it's going to be a great diet for our dogs.

I do envy you your freebie supply of carcasses, wings, necks, etc.


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## cinnsally

Hi everyone. I have a 6.5-month old Japanese Spitz puppy that I've really wanted to move onto raw. Mainly because he hates kibble and it makes the most sense to me. Reni is our first dog that's officially 'mine' and I just love him to bits. We still have some kibble (Taste of the Wild + some Orijen/Acana samples) left that we just can't afford to throw away so I've been doing one meal kibble and one meal raw for about two to three weeks now. I started off with chicken, but he's also tried rabbit and turkey, and some beef mince and ox heart. I've also tried giving him a bit of kidney this week. He's been absolutely fine until now...

The thing is, he absolutely loved raw at first, which made me happy because he had become completely uninterested in kibble and I had to feed him by hand or else he wouldn't eat any. My main motivation for trying raw was seeing him so unhappy with his food. He just loved chicken and munched away happily, necks were his favourite.

This week, he had constipation and was in pain when passing the pooh, which was my fault because I gave him chicken carcass two days in a row (he ate half each time). I haven't given him bone since, but he hasn't been eating properly. This actually started last week so I don't think this incident has to do with it. He has progressively lost interest in his food, which previously happened with any type of food and kibble that I tried. He hasn't eaten kibble in two days, and as for raw, well... On Friday, he had some chicken meat and ate a bit every few hours, he ate the last bit just before midnight. Yesterday, I gave him some turkey meat and a piece of kidney. He ate the kidney but left the turkey. I finally cut it up into pieces and fed them to him, he ate some but then refused any more. He did have some treats (fruit, cheese, a bit of cooked turkey) which he loved, but he wouldn't touch the raw turkey. Finally, I gave him some tuna and he ate most of that. Today, he didn't want any kibble again so he skipped the morning meal. And then earlier, I gave him some beef mince and a piece of ox heart, thinking surely he'll eat that. He loved the heart but wouldn't touch the mince. I mixed some raw egg into it but it didn't make it any more interesting. He's literally had 50g ox heart today when he usually eats about 250g per day. And I know he hasn't lost his appetite, he just doesn't want the mince.

On top of this, he hasn't poohed since yesterday morning. I just had a good cry because I'm getting a bit desperate now. I'm still a bit haunted by what happened on Wednesday when he couldn't pass the pooh and I thought it was happening all over again, but he shouldn't be constipated again because he hasn't had bone since then! I just really, really don't know what to do anymore.

I've just had a big argument with my grandma who can't understand why I'm obsessing about the dog's food so much. If it were up to my family, he'd be happily eating Pedigree kibble and cheap pasta with a bit of meat all his life, like our previous dog who was obese, had horrible teeth, arthritis, constant health problems, and died at age 9 of liver failure! I suppose my family think that's normal for a dog! I suppose I should mention I live in Slovenia where I don't think many people feed their dogs prey model or BARF, at least not as far as I've seen on forums etc. And I don't think I'd attempt going to a butcher's and asking for bones for the dog. My family obviously think I'm insane, poisoning him, spending too much on him etc., but were willing to go along with my little project.

I started looking where I could possibly find green tripe but I just don't know where to start. I did find a BARF supplier in Germany that was willing to ship frozen tripe here, but he suggested I order 27 kg. I mentioned this to my mum yesterday and told her of all the benefits for the dog. She didn't say no, but she didn't really say yes either, except that 27 kg is a lot and that I would be feeding it in my room because of the smell. And today I got quite an earful from my grandmother about this, about what I'm doing to this dog, how all dogs eat Pedigree and don't die from it, and that no one else orders food for their dog from Germany. I didn't feel like arguing with her but it did get to me. I didn't really need all this on top of being really worried about him at the minute. I don't think I'll order the tripe anyway because we would probably have to invest in another freezer for that, and I can't really risk buying this much since he gets fed up with pretty much anything I feed him in a matter of weeks.

This whole thing is really stressing me out. My family kept calling me crazy but I was really convinced I was doing the right thing for the dog. Now I'm not quite so sure anymore. He doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with him, he's alert and playful as usual, he even chased after a deer this morning! But I'm really starting to worry about him and feel like I'm incapable of taking care of my own dog. I don't understand why he's constipated again. And I don't really know what to feed him anymore. I know for a fact he's hungry and will eat fruit and treats, but I can hardly feed him only fruit, kidney and heart... Knowing him, he'd stop eating this soon too! He won't eat raw or kibble, and I don't think I can afford wet.

I'm really sorry for this long post, I guess I needed to vent and no one's on my side at home! But I just wanted to ask, has anyone's dog been fussy about raw meat? And what did you do about it? I'm always reading about how happy everyone's dogs are at every meal time, it makes me sad because I really had my heart set on raw for him, and the last thing I want is to have to put him back on Pedigree


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## DirtyGertie

cinnsally said:


> Hi everyone. I have a 6.5-month old Japanese Spitz puppy that I've really wanted to move onto raw. Mainly because he hates kibble and it makes the most sense to me. Reni is our first dog that's officially 'mine' and I just love him to bits. We still have some kibble (Taste of the Wild + some Orijen/Acana samples) left that we just can't afford to throw away so I've been doing one meal kibble and one meal raw for about two to three weeks now. I started off with chicken, but he's also tried rabbit and turkey, and some beef mince and ox heart. I've also tried giving him a bit of kidney this week. He's been absolutely fine until now...
> 
> ..........I'm really sorry for this long post, I guess I needed to vent and no one's on my side at home! But I just wanted to ask, has anyone's dog been fussy about raw meat? And what did you do about it? I'm always reading about how happy everyone's dogs are at every meal time, it makes me sad because I really had my heart set on raw for him, and the last thing I want is to have to put him back on Pedigree


You say you've been feeding one meal kibble/one meal raw for two to three weeks now. I think you've moved too fast with the variety you've given him

Chicken
Rabbit
Turkey
Beef Mince
Ox heart
Kidney
Tuna

That's an awful lot of different foods in three weeks. It should take a couple of months to introduce that much variety.

Have you read the beginning of this thread where it tells you to start of with one type of meat, usually chicken, and feed that for a week or two before introducing a second meat and feed just the chicken and second meat for a week or so before introducing a third, etc.

Rather than give him chicken carcasses, maybe give chicken wings for the moment as there is less bone than carcasses and only give enough for his poos to be firm. If he's constipated he's had too much bone, as you've already said.

How much kibble have you got left? If he hates it as you say there's not much point in continuing with it. Can you not donate it to a rescue or shelter. I did that with mine and put Poppy straight onto raw.

Read up a bit more until you understand how to go about starting off, introduce new meats slowly. Put food down, leave for 15 mins, if he doesn't eat it all then take it up until the next meal time. If he doesn't eat it don't give him anything else, hold off on the treats, just keep putting the food down, he wont starve himself.

As for 27kg of tripe, that's an awful lot to find freezer space for. But if you do get some could you not feed it outside rather than in your room, I don't think anyone likes the smell of tripe and certainly not in their room.

As for your family, do plenty of research and present your findings of the benefits of a raw diet and how poor quality Pedigree is.


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## whitefire

hi cinnsally,

thanks for the long post. it is actually helpful in these circumstances. my reply however will be a bit shorter :tongue_smilie:

so everyone goes through this phase and some still do like sarahferret. her whippet has been on raw for over a year now and is a very fussy eater. please do not stress. here are a few do's and don'ts...

do

read through this basic guide to raw - http://puppybutt.weebly.com/uploads/7/6/9/2/7692088/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.4.1.pdf - it's a very simple easy to read guide and makes things as simple as they should be.

feed at irregular meal times
- if you feed breakfast between 7am - 9am and dinner between 6pm - 9pm that stops your dog's stomach working at specific times. when you feed at exactly the same time every day and you skip a meal the dog with throw up green slime (bile) because you skipped a meal. also dogs in the wild don't always eat at exactly the same time every day.

feed, and leave the food for 15-30 minutes
- if your pup has not eaten in that time then pick it up and in the freezer it goes for the next meal. if you have to feed in your room then sit on your bed and come onto the forum and just observe your pup eating rather than watching over him. maybe he doesn't like to be watched like a hawk while he eats (but we need to be around just in case something gets stuck - hardly ever does but just in case...)

multiple in / out / in / out / in / out of the freezer for food is perfectly fine. (for a dog that is)

offer the same food again
-try offer the same food at least 3 times before making the choice to choose a different meat for the next meal.

don'ts

dont stress 
-worrying if you dog is going to eat while he is trying to eat this will cause him to stress and make him not want to eat.

feeding something different when he doesn't want to eat
- if he doesn't want to eat what you have offered and you try something else, this will teach him that being fussy is ok and mummy will give me something (eventually) that i like (no matter how many times i refuse). it's a vicious cycle.

feed treats when he hasn't eaten breakfast
-if you feed treats during the day and he hasn't eaten breakfast this is teaching him that he will not have to eat because he can get some treats later during the day to keep him going. if he doesn't eat breakfast, then cut back on the treats for the day. just like children, no breakfast no treats. simple. :crazy:

if the weather is very hot he may also not want to eat as much, try feeding him frozen meals.

also i wouldn't order 27kg tripe. i am a crazy person but that amount is far beyond crazy, even for me :tongue_smilie: . 27kg of tripe will last you forever and a day! just think if you feed 200g per meal then 27kg will be 135 meals :yikes: . to put your mind at ease my puppy's treats come from germany - it's no big deal, and Orijen comes from canada :tongue_smilie:

how many times do you feed you puppy? have you weighed him and worked out the ratio of food weight per meal

my puppy is very good at self-regulating, so I'm not too worried when he doesn't feel like eating much.

oh and on a fully raw diet dogs won't pee or poo very much. when my pup was on Orijen he pooed about 7 times a day. when we went onto raw he now poos about 3 times a day, more if i over feed or if he has had loads of treats and food.

please, please, please don't stress! i get moaned at by my housemate all the time, i just ignore it. so best you just ignore people when they moan at you


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## Sarahferret

Oh cinnsally I really feel your pain. As whitefire said, I have a fussy one. I was in tears last week because she skipped fours meals in a row.

You are doing exactly what I did, and trust me in that you are making it worse trying to coax pup to eat. By getting anxious, hand feeding and continually offering something else, you are actually encouraging fussy eating. I always did that, and that's why I still have a problem.

It is incredibly hard on the owner being strong and not giving into the demands of a fussy dog, but I stuck to my guns last week, and she did eventually eat. Last night she again tried to leave her dinner, but because she learnt last week nothing different was going to get offered, she gave in and ate.

My advice:
Get a vet check up so you know there's no medical reason for lack of appetite and difficulty toileting.
Pick a diet and stick to it. Either raw or commercial.
Put meals down at meal time and take away after ten minutes if not eaten.
Feed nothing, and I mean no treats or anything between meals.
Do not hand feed.
Do not get angry or upset at meal times. Dog will feel your emotion and an unsettled dog won't eat.

If you wish to raw feed, get a week's worth of chicken meals. Persevere with that. It may take two weeks for it to get eaten if meal times don't work out. Pop the food in fridge or freezer and try again next meal. Only when you have used up that chicken should you start thinking about offering a new meat.

You have to be strict and tough, and you will probably shed many more tears, but you need to do it or you will have this as an ongoing problem.

No I need to get better at taking my own advice!


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## Goblin

You've already had some good advice so I will not cover what already has been said.



cinnsally said:


> I suppose I should mention I live in Slovenia where I don't think many people feed their dogs prey model or BARF, at least not as far as I've seen on forums etc. And I don't think I'd attempt going to a butcher's and asking for bones for the dog. My family obviously think I'm insane, poisoning him, spending too much on him etc., but were willing to go along with my little project.


I don't know what your butchers are like in Slovenia but I know we've found a nice butcher here in Germany that is attached to it's own slaughterhouse. We therefore asked them to supply green tripe, heart and offal. They are not allowed to have tripe it in the shop but we reserve it on Tuesday and pick it up on Friday from the back of the shop. It may be possible to make similar arrangements of you can find a similar butcher.

27-28kg is a standard order from sites in Germany mainly due to the fact they deliver in a large polystyrene box. There's nothing to say you need to put all tripe in it. One site I have used in the past is Der BARF Shop | Home although they are shortly going on holiday. Not sure about payment methods though and it's not exactly cheap.

One of the things I would do in your position, if you are a native speaker is search for forums, breed specific or BARF using the native language. Breed specific doesn't necessarily mean your own  Nothing to stop you looking at a wide range until you find one which covers the topic. If you are not a native speaker but know someone else who is, maybe you could get them to help.

I don't know how common commercial foods are in Slovenia. You may find many people feed "raw" without any of the labels normally associated with it where commercial food is the normal method of feeding.


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## Born2BWild

Hii,

Fantastic thread  Although I only got to about page 40 :tongue_smilie:

I have recently written down a typical menu for my doglets, and realised it is pretty much mince based (I order from Davids Doggie Dinners - they are DAF minces) 

I just wanted your opinion on their updated menu...

I prefer ordering online and it seems minces are one of the main things you can order...

So here is the menu;

Monday = AM: Chicken chunks and livers
PM: Duck wings

Tuesday = AM: Lamb mince and kidneys
PM: Remaining lamb mince

Wednesday = AM: Choice chunks and tripe
PM: Lamb bones

Thursday = AM: Turkey mince and livers
PM: Remaining turkey mince

Friday = AM: Beef chunks and kidneys
PM: Chicken wings

Saturday = AM: Oily fish mince and livers
Frozen sardine stuffed kongs midday
PM: Remaining oily fish mince

Sunday: AM: Venison mince and kidneys
PM: Remaining venison mince

My Terrier loves all of the above (my greyhound is being fussy) but I would just like to know if I am giving them the right things...

My reasons for only 3 boney days is that if I gave bone daily they get a tad constipated (probably as there is bone in the minces too!)

Any advice/help structuring my dogs feeding plan will be grately appreciated


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## milliepede

Hi. I'm a newbie to the forum but not to barf. 
My ESS had terrible problems as a youngster - diarrhea and sickness - so I looked into feeding something other than commercial dog food and discovered Ian Billinghurst's books. However, he stresses the importance of including fruit and veg in the diet and my dog was not keen on this idea. She had an amazing ability to pick out the tiniest piece of veg, lick it clean and place it at the side of her bowl so I didn't fully embrace the diet preferring to stick with half home-made cooked food (with hidden veggies) and some raw. She was fit and well on this diet.
Sadly she died last month and the house was too quiet without a dog so little Millie (11 week old ESS) has come to stay. The breeder weened the pups on a diet of kibble and chicken wings so I thought this was a good opportunity to fully embrace raw food. I was quite surprised to read that generally people here don't feed veggies on a regular basis and understand your reasoning behind this. Millie, however, loves all fruit and veg so far and happily steals it out of my veg basket when I've picked some for dinner. As long as she had plenty of meat/bones etc. is this a problem? 
Also, Billinghurst advocates adding vitamins to the diet. This always rather baffled me as never seemed to be exact quantities so I always stuck to Petabs, a multivitamin. No-one here seems to mention vitamin supplements at all so I'm assuming everything dogs need comes from the rmb.
Are there recommended books to read on the subject? My OH is a bit of a worrier and is convinced that we'll do something wrong and ruin Millie for life. I, on the other hand, worry less and believe that as long as she gets a bit of everything she should do just fine.


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## whitefire

hi millipede

when my pup was on Orijen he wouldn't leave me alone if i had fruit or veg and i would have to give him some, since switching to raw / prey model he doesn't even bother any more with fruit or veg.

there is a big difference between BARF and a raw / prey model diet. BARF advocates more bones, less meat and includes fruit and veg but the prey model / raw diet mimics what the wild dogs (not JUST wolves) eat in the wild when they hunt. we don't see wild dogs climbing apple trees to grab an apple :hand: also because of the short digestive track and the chemistry compound of fruit and veg you'll have to pulp the fruit and veg to allow the nutrients to be digested. if you inspect Millie's poo you will notice the chunks of fruit and veg undigested. most of us on here who feed raw don't feed veg and fruit as part of the staple, but if Millie gets them as treats then that's fine too.

here's a great beginners guide to raw - http://puppybutt.weebly.com/uploads/7/6/9/2/7692088/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.4.1.pdf (it includes the do's and don'ts).

i personally don't supplement any vitamins because the meat i give my pup is not process minced meats instead they are full chunks of meat (some bone in and some off bone) direct from the butcher. the only supplement i give maybe twice a week is salmon oil because i think it works wonders for my boy's coat. i also feed green tripe so there must be a few bits of grass and veg / fruit in there.


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## russelgrane

Last week I had attended a seminar on dog's raw food, it was really informative I have learned a lot from that. I came up with a knowledge that dog should be feed as per their situation and health.


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## Skandi

OK little bit of help here please  5 month old collie/lab she's been on raw for a month and a bit now, and generaly her diet consists of chicken leg quarters, beef ribs (she can't eat the bone in them) pork chunks with skin, pork mince, liver (pork or lamb) kidney (pork)

She's also had lamb duck venison, pilchards (tined) herring, mackeral, seabass and eggs


now a typical days food is 600g and would be

chicken thigh or 2 drumstics or 2 wings
chunk of pork/pork mince
kidney/fish/liver

now that was working fine untill we ran out of the fish, if she's not given the fish she gets very very hard poos, turning into little balls, even if there's only 1 thigh bone in her diet. (which isn't over 10% surely!) what else can she have that might have soften them up again, offal doesn't seem to effect her insides at all, I don't mind feeding fish everyday, but wondered if there might be such a thing as to much fish!


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## Born2BWild

How about adding salmon oil?

Or cutting down on boney days - say a bone every other day?


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## DirtyGertie

I only give bone two out of three days. Maybe have a couple of bone free days and see how that goes.

ETA: LOL - cross posted with B2BW. Snap!


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## Born2BWild

DirtyGertie said:


> I only give bone two out of three days. Maybe have a couple of bone free days and see how that goes.
> 
> ETA: LOL - cross posted with B2BW. Snap!


LOL, great minds think alike


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## cinnsally

I wanted to say thanks to *DirtyGertie*, *whitefire*, *Sarahferret*, and *Goblin* for all the excellent advice on my fussy eater. I'm very sorry for not thanking you sooner but things have been quite hectic, I've had lots of work recently, and have been dealing with an absolute invasion of ticks.

Anyway, the tough love approach with Reni's food did work wonderfully, he only missed one meal and was then eating on his own. It was too good to be true. The thing is that my parents were away at the time, and since they've been back, things have become even worse than before. My mother is always giving him treats and he hasn't been eating nowhere near enough actual food.

I tried talking to her several times, and now we're at the point where we just start arguing and I give up because I can't move her an inch. Whenever Reni turns his nose up at his food, she'll tell me to either give him something else that he likes, or cook the meat. And when I take his food away, she accuses me of being cruel and starving him. I feel like I'm failing my pup and harming him because I'm incapable of doing something about this. It's hard enough trying to do the right thing and be tough without being accused of starving my own dog on purpose!

I'm really sorry for going off topic, I didn't mean to go on about this. It's just really difficult, and I needed to vent.

Anyway...



Goblin said:


> I don't know what your butchers are like in Slovenia but I know we've found a nice butcher here in Germany that is attached to it's own slaughterhouse. We therefore asked them to supply green tripe, heart and offal. They are not allowed to have tripe it in the shop but we reserve it on Tuesday and pick it up on Friday from the back of the shop. It may be possible to make similar arrangements of you can find a similar butcher.
> 
> 27-28kg is a standard order from sites in Germany mainly due to the fact they deliver in a large polystyrene box. There's nothing to say you need to put all tripe in it. One site I have used in the past is Der BARF Shop | Home although they are shortly going on holiday. Not sure about payment methods though and it's not exactly cheap.
> 
> One of the things I would do in your position, if you are a native speaker is search for forums, breed specific or BARF using the native language. Breed specific doesn't necessarily mean your own  Nothing to stop you looking at a wide range until you find one which covers the topic. If you are not a native speaker but know someone else who is, maybe you could get them to help.
> 
> I don't know how common commercial foods are in Slovenia. You may find many people feed "raw" without any of the labels normally associated with it where commercial food is the normal method of feeding.


I'm not sure I would be able to find a similar butcher here, I'm pretty sure there aren't any slaughterhouses around. I might have more luck trying to ask local farmers.

But just out of interest, how large is this 27-28kg box? We do have quite a lot of freezer space, but I don't really have a feeling how much 27kg of meat would actually take up. I have already looked at the site you linked, it says they ship to the EU, but when I try to register, there are only a few EU countries available in the drop-down list. No Slovenia, of course. As for the prices, they are actually cheaper than the place I was looking at that was willing to ship here!

I think a lot of people do feed raw here, but I don't think they put too much thought into it. I've read about some people who feed BARF. There's actually a BARF website but it hasn't been updated in years. In the countryside, people do feed leftovers, cooked food (including bones), lots of grains. But I do think commercial food is the norm. Definitely no companies specialising in raw food for pets!


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## Sarahferret

Parents eh?! Again you aren't alone. There was a thread yesterday from someone with a fussy dog who's parents kept feeding inappropriate food. Perhaps you could ask them to let you do it your way for a week without interference to see what happens.. if they give you a chance they will see it works. Gentle negotiation often works with uncooperative parents


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## whitefire

hello again.

we're all here to help and listen to you vent, and we have all had some sort of objection to our choice of feeding for our dogs :mad2:

you could also try asking your parents to feed a natural treat, like baked liver which is very cheap to make and you can count that as part of his diet. 400g of baked liver cut into very small pieces goes a lllllloooooooooooonnnnnnnnngggggg way with a small dog.

no it's not cruel to 'starve' your dog as dogs in the wild dont eat at 7am then 1pm and then 6pm every day in the wild? do they? i am NOT the type to say yes starve your dog, no way, but if you offer food and they dont want it then you're not starving your dog. dogs are opportunistic feeders so you are giving the opportunity but they dont want it.

i know it's not the same but i had objections from my housemate and best friend for the first few months. everyday i would have them on my back, still do sometimes and one day i told them to hush-up and keep their opinions to themselves and gave them evidence of the benefits, so now they are more forgiving. i dont feed heads or whole prey in front of my housemate as that would tip him over the edge.


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## ryanr

Hi there,

I adopted a 6 year old rottweiler called Cassie around 4 years ago from the Manchester dogs home, she was my first dog so I didn't really know much about food or health at the time. I gave her the generic well marketed commercial dog foods for about 2 years, then moved onto orijen after she started to itch badly and have problems with her anal glands. Another 1-2 years on orijen, salmon oil, and probiotics made no difference, the vets were probably getting fed up of seeing her, they claimed it was due to food allergies and advised us to try a hypoallergenic dry food with hydrolysed protein, which I did at £70 a 13kg bag which only last 1-2 month! Being on this for around 3 month made little to no difference to her symptoms. I feel so guilty seeing her in such missery and did so much research into itching and allergies, which led me to think she might have a systemic yeast infection, due to a low immune system from eating crap food and an overdose of antibiotics because of a leg injury she had last year. When looking into all of this, so many people would mention raw food diets to boost their immune system, it sounded like a miracle cure I've wanted to do it for about a year but found it so difficult and confusing understanding it. Anyway, about a month ago I finaly built up the courage to make the switch, with help from this great forum (got up to about 50 pages of this thread) and other websites and books.

The first 2 weeks went fine, she was great on it, she had chicken and turkey drumsticks, beef mince, tripe, and sardines. I wanted to take it slow due to her age, we tried her on tiny amounts of lambs liver but she always brought it back. I was feeling so great that I was feeding her proper food, and she just loves tearing the meat and crunching the bones, her energy levels have balanced out and now she rarely has her 'mad half hours', her bowl movements are tiny and a good consistency, she only goes once a day instead of 3, she no longer has flatulance, and her coat is so shiny...

However, 2 weeks in she started itching and biting herself like crazy, she developed 4 or 5 bleeding hotspots on her head and neck through itching, she paws at her eyes, rubs herself on the sofa, shakes her head, kicks her ears and chin, constantly licks her private parts and bites her bum, it's the worst I've ever seen her. I had to put an elizabethan collar on her to help the hotspots heal, which they now have, but the moment we take the collar off she's biting and kicking herself again unless she's sleeping. I've given her frontline to rule out fleas (I wanted to stay away from pesticides and try natural treatments but I didn't know what else to give), and we're taking her to the vets this week to rule out her anal glands. The day she started itching it was very hot and sunny, and the hot weather lasted a few days so I originally thought it could have been the weather as she does seem to be allergic to grasses, but now its gone cooler she hasn't changed so I doubt it's related. She's been like this for about 3 weeks now.

A week ago I stopped feeding everything but beef mince and turkey drumsticks on alternate days as a kind of elimination diet, to see if she would stop, but she hasn't. I'm guessing she could be allergic to the beef or turkey, or both, but my problem is I don't know what else to feed her. All the other meats are so expensive, she has 650g per day so anything over £3 per kg is pricey, the butchers around here aren't very friendly and are very expensive and the supermarkets don't have a huge range. I just feel completely useless and hate seeing her like this, I want her to have a carefree, relaxing and fun life, despite being 9-10 years old she acts like a puppy, everyone when out with her thinks she's a pup! I would hate for her to be like this for the rest of her life, the one thing I thought would help was a raw diet and it was my last hope which is now being shattered, and I'm contemplating putting her back on orijen, which I really don't want to do. So I'm calling for help, I find it difficult doing it on my own, and half of the time don't know whether I'm doing right or wrong. I'm having problems myself at the moment which is adding to the stress, I'm in and out of hospital, in and out of the vets, and just generally overwhelmed with everything, and I feel like she is picking up on this. I'd just love some support as I want the best for Cassie, so if anyone could help or suggest anything I would be so, so Grateful!

Thank you for taking the time to read this,
Ryan


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## DirtyGertie

ryanr said:


> *The first 2 weeks went fine, she was great on it, she had chicken and turkey drumsticks, beef mince, tripe, and sardines*. I wanted to take it slow due to her age, we tried her on tiny amounts of lambs liver but she always brought it back. I was feeling so great that I was feeding her proper food, and she just loves tearing the meat and crunching the bones, her energy levels have balanced out and now she rarely has her 'mad half hours', her bowl movements are tiny and a good consistency, she only goes once a day instead of 3, she no longer has flatulance, and her coat is so shiny...
> 
> *However, 2 weeks in she started itching and biting herself like crazy, she developed 4 or 5 bleeding hotspots on her head and neck through itching, she paws at her eyes, rubs herself on the sofa, shakes her head, kicks her ears and chin, constantly licks her private parts and bites her bum, it's the worst I've ever seen her*. I had to put an elizabethan collar on her to help the hotspots heal, which they now have, but the moment we take the collar off she's biting and kicking herself again unless she's sleeping. I've given her frontline to rule out fleas (I wanted to stay away from pesticides and try natural treatments but I didn't know what else to give), and we're taking her to the vets this week to rule out her anal glands. The day she started itching it was very hot and sunny, and the hot weather lasted a few days so I originally thought it could have been the weather as she does seem to be allergic to grasses, but now its gone cooler she hasn't changed so I doubt it's related. She's been like this for about 3 weeks now.
> 
> *A week ago I stopped feeding everything but beef mince and turkey drumsticks on alternate days as a kind of elimination diet, to see if she would stop, but she hasn't. I'm guessing she could be allergic to the beef or turkey, or both, but my problem is I don't know what else to feed her*. All the other meats are so expensive, she has 650g per day so anything over £3 per kg is pricey, the butchers around here aren't very friendly and are very expensive and the supermarkets don't have a huge range. I just feel completely useless and hate seeing her like this, I want her to have a carefree, relaxing and fun life, despite being 9-10 years old she acts like a puppy, everyone when out with her thinks she's a pup! I would hate for her to be like this for the rest of her life, the one thing I thought would help was a raw diet and it was my last hope which is now being shattered, and I'm contemplating putting her back on orijen, which I really don't want to do. So I'm calling for help, I find it difficult doing it on my own, and half of the time don't know whether I'm doing right or wrong. I'm having problems myself at the moment which is adding to the stress, I'm in and out of hospital, in and out of the vets, and just generally overwhelmed with everything, and I feel like she is picking up on this. I'd just love some support as I want the best for Cassie, so if anyone could help or suggest anything I would be so, so Grateful!
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to read this,
> Ryan


Hi Ryan, welcome to PF, Cassie is lovely.

First of all I would say you introduced too much too quickly. Chicken and turkey drumsticks, beef mince, tripe, and sardines, all in two weeks. You really should have stuck to just chicken for the first couple of weeks then added in one more meat so chicken and, say, turkey for the second week. Then if no adverse reaction add a third variety the next week, and so on. That way if there are any reactions you can pinpoint it to the particular variety of meat just introduced.

I would start again. Just use chicken for the time being and see what happens. If things settle down on just chicken then start adding other meats in slowly as described.

Check out the Raw Food Supplier List, you may find you can get things cheaper from someone on there rather than use the butcher or supermarket.


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## ryanr

Hi, thanks for the reply!

to be more precise, she had beef for a couple of weeks before I made the switch to raw, usually in the evenings with kibble in the morning. I then replaced the kibble with chicken for about a week, and then introduced the turkey the second week alternating with the turkey, at the end of the second week she seemed fine, but maybe a bit more itching than usual, so I gave her some tripe as i heard it was great for itching and other health problems, but only a couple of times per week, the sardines I introduced just after the itching as i thought the fish oil might help but it was only once, not a regular thing, she is however used to sardines and mackerell because I usually give them maybe omce a fortnight.

looking back on it, and rereading your highlighting of my text, it does seem too much too soon, but she has been fine going to the toilet, the odd vomit at first but that has all stopped now. Do you think starting from scratch would help the itching? Is she deffinately ok with having only chicken for 2 weeks? I wouldnt like her to get any deficiencies!

Thanks for the raw food suppliers list, I was contemplating trying venison and rabbit from the dog food company, but I don't really have much freezer space. I find it a bit of a struggle getting weekly meats from the supermarket lol I'll have a look through them, thanks again!


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## DirtyGertie

ryanr said:


> Hi, thanks for the reply!
> 
> to be more precise, she had beef for a couple of weeks before I made the switch to raw, usually in the evenings with kibble in the morning. I then replaced the kibble with chicken for about a week, and then introduced the turkey the second week alternating with the turkey, at the end of the second week she seemed fine, but maybe a bit more itching than usual, so I gave her some tripe as i heard it was great for itching and other health problems, but only a couple of times per week, the sardines I introduced just after the itching as i thought the fish oil might help but it was only once, not a regular thing, she is however used to sardines and mackerell because I usually give them maybe omce a fortnight.
> 
> looking back on it, and rereading your highlighting of my text, it does seem too much too soon, but she has been fine going to the toilet, the odd vomit at first but that has all stopped now. Do you think starting from scratch would help the itching? *Is she deffinately ok with having only chicken for 2 weeks? I wouldnt like her to get any deficiencies*!


Yes, chicken for two weeks is fine, that's how introducing raw is normally done. Chicken is normally the first meat (unless there is a known reaction or dog starts to react), once you know she is fine on the first meat then introduce another but you need time to see if a reaction is going to happen. To introduce everything into my dog's raw diet (chicken, lamb, duck, turkey, tripe, rabbit) took about two months, then I introduced offal last of all. I've since added fish and pork and when I do my next raw order I am hoping that venison and pheasant will be in stock.

Would starting from scratch help with itching? Not sure but if it stops then you know there is something in the raw diet that isn't suiting Cassie and introducing one meat at a time and slowly will help identify that. Of course the itching could be caused by something else. You say it started when she was on commercial food, maybe there was something in it she has a reaction to, maybe a grain??? Do you feed any treats at all? There could be something in the treats that was in the commercial food so she's still having the itching. Just looking for possibilities here.


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## ryanr

DirtyGertie said:


> Yes, chicken for two weeks is fine, that's how introducing raw is normally done. Chicken is normally the first meat (unless there is a known reaction or dog starts to react), once you know she is fine on the first meat then introduce another but you need time to see if a reaction is going to happen. To introduce everything into my dog's raw diet (chicken, lamb, duck, turkey, tripe, rabbit) took about two months, then I introduced offal last of all. I've since added fish and pork and when I do my next raw order I am hoping that venison and pheasant will be in stock.
> 
> Would starting from scratch help with itching? Not sure but if it stops then you know there is something in the raw diet that isn't suiting Cassie and introducing one meat at a time and slowly will help identify that.


Ok then, I'll give it a restart, she hasn't been on chicken for over a week now, so I'll try her on it tomorrow, I did originally change from chicken to turkey as the turkey drumsticks are cheaper @ £1.75 in Asda and much bigger so she has to work harder for the food. Would you recommend sticking with the same type of chicken, so drumsticks, or should I go for a whole chicken, and give her half of it each day?

I'm not sure how long her allergies take to come on, I was advised to try the royal canine hypoallergenic dog food for a minimum of 2 months as it can take a long time, so If I try chicken for 2 weeks and she's still itching, could I keep her on it for maybe a month to give the allergies time to calm down from now, or would that be too long on one protein?



DirtyGertie said:


> Of course the itching could be caused by something else. You say it started when she was on commercial food, maybe there was something in it she has a reaction to, maybe a grain??? Do you feed any treats at all? There could be something in the treats that was in the commercial food so she's still having the itching. Just looking for possibilities here.


The itching seemed to start on commercial food, to be honest, she could have been itching at the dogs home, but with her being my first dog I didn't really know if itching was a problem or not, or if all dogs do it, oblivious I know! I just noticed it more and more the longer we had her which then rang alarm bells I guess. I originally thought grain could be causing it as you say, which Is why I moved her on to Orijen as it has no grain in, but she still continued to itch on that too. I've stopped using chemicals in the house downstairs, going back to vinegar, lemon and bicarb to clean, but that didn't help. She's like it in winter too so it's not solely caused by grasses or pollens. I've tried so many different things!

The main reason why we switched her over to raw was because she's always had a bit of hair loss around the eyes, and she has itchy ears, and a runny nose, the itching wasn't so bad to be quite honest, at least not compared to how it is right this moment. All of them symptoms point towards an underlying problem, a poor immune system, possibly caused by food and allergies, and they should clear up if that underlying problem is resolved. The vet's have said they will take skin scrapings for yeast, and demodetic mites if the change of food doesn't help, but they definitely think it was the commercial food that's causing the problems hence advising trying hypoallergenic. Even if they treat any mites and yeast if she does have any, it will only help for the short term due to her immune system not being strong enough to fight it off again. So the best thing to do would be to feed her raw to boost her immune system, and this *was* helping, as her nose was drying up within the first couple of weeks coming off kibble and I'm certain she was itching a bit less than usual. But all that stopped when this acute bout of itching happened, so it's no longer continuing doing it's job like it should.

I'm pretty sure the current bout of itching is being caused by some of the raw food, because the itching came on out of nowhere within a day or 2 she was going mad with it, much, much worse than she's ever had before, she's only ever had 1 hotspot in her life, and to get 5 within a few days shows that it was something acute and out of the blue, and the only thing that really changed was her food. There is a possibility it could have been something else, so I'm not ruling out the weather, or fleas, or her anal glands, as I'm trying to eliminate each of those.



DirtyGertie said:


> Do you feed any treats at all? There could be something in the treats that was in the commercial food so she's still having the itching. Just looking for possibilities here.


Whilst on Hypoallergenic dog food the only treats she had were the actual dog food as I was advised not to give her anything else. A couple of weeks before putting her on raw, I started giving her fish4dogs fish skin treats, or 95% meat dog treats from Tesco when I run out of fish skins. So no grain in her diet at all, but I guess there is a possibility that these could also be a cause of itching. I can't really give her chicken as treats though, maybe I'll try carrots, surely she can't be allergic to them lol

I've got her in at the vets tonight at 6:30, to have her anal glands emptied, as she is biting her back legs and trying to bite her bum which is usually a sign of her anal glands being full, possibly caused by the runny stools she had on raw the first few days. I just hope they don't pump her with more antibiotics, which they sometimes do saying that her anal glands might get infected otherwise


----------



## DirtyGertie

Hi Ryan. I would go for any type of chicken really and maybe not every meal a boney meal in case she gets constipated (but I'm sure you are guided by her poos anyway).

There does seem to be a lot going on here, far more than I have experience of. I have messaged another member who is very knowledgeable about health issues and asked her to take a look at your posts and see if she can offer any advice. Hang in there, hopefully it wont be too long before she comes online.


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## ryanr

Thanks so much!

I'm not a vet, so everything I am doing is just what I think should be done and what I've learned from books, the internet, and what people have told me. I don't really know what's right and what's wrong. 

After reading lots of websites on RAW and BARF and from my experience, I believe most vets are only good for surgical and other problems, but when it comes to stuff like this, they just don't seem to have a clue. I've seen 3 vets about it up to now and every one of them just say change to hypoallergenic which did not work. I'd love to see a holistic vet with knowledge of nutrition, and who would support a RAW diet, and help find what her problems are, but there are none nearby 

Thanks again for your help, you've given me more confidence on restarting the diet, hopefully I can find out what's causing the allergy! If it is one!


----------



## Sled dog hotel

ryanr said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I adopted a 6 year old rottweiler called Cassie around 4 years ago from the Manchester dogs home, she was my first dog so I didn't really know much about food or health at the time. I gave her the generic well marketed commercial dog foods for about 2 years, then moved onto orijen after she started to itch badly and have problems with her anal glands. Another 1-2 years on orijen, salmon oil, and probiotics made no difference, the vets were probably getting fed up of seeing her, they claimed it was due to food allergies and advised us to try a hypoallergenic dry food with hydrolysed protein, which I did at £70 a 13kg bag which only last 1-2 month! Being on this for around 3 month made little to no difference to her symptoms. I feel so guilty seeing her in such missery and did so much research into itching and allergies, which led me to think she might have a systemic yeast infection, due to a low immune system from eating crap food and an overdose of antibiotics because of a leg injury she had last year. When looking into all of this, so many people would mention raw food diets to boost their immune system, it sounded like a miracle cure I've wanted to do it for about a year but found it so difficult and confusing understanding it. Anyway, about a month ago I finaly built up the courage to make the switch, with help from this great forum (got up to about 50 pages of this thread) and other websites and books.
> 
> The first 2 weeks went fine, she was great on it, she had chicken and turkey drumsticks, beef mince, tripe, and sardines. I wanted to take it slow due to her age, we tried her on tiny amounts of lambs liver but she always brought it back. I was feeling so great that I was feeding her proper food, and she just loves tearing the meat and crunching the bones, her energy levels have balanced out and now she rarely has her 'mad half hours', her bowl movements are tiny and a good consistency, she only goes once a day instead of 3, she no longer has flatulance, and her coat is so shiny...
> 
> However, 2 weeks in she started itching and biting herself like crazy, she developed 4 or 5 bleeding hotspots on her head and neck through itching, she paws at her eyes, rubs herself on the sofa, shakes her head, kicks her ears and chin, constantly licks her private parts and bites her bum, it's the worst I've ever seen her. I had to put an elizabethan collar on her to help the hotspots heal, which they now have, but the moment we take the collar off she's biting and kicking herself again unless she's sleeping. I've given her frontline to rule out fleas (I wanted to stay away from pesticides and try natural treatments but I didn't know what else to give), and we're taking her to the vets this week to rule out her anal glands. The day she started itching it was very hot and sunny, and the hot weather lasted a few days so I originally thought it could have been the weather as she does seem to be allergic to grasses, but now its gone cooler she hasn't changed so I doubt it's related. She's been like this for about 3 weeks now.
> 
> A week ago I stopped feeding everything but beef mince and turkey drumsticks on alternate days as a kind of elimination diet, to see if she would stop, but she hasn't. I'm guessing she could be allergic to the beef or turkey, or both, but my problem is I don't know what else to feed her. All the other meats are so expensive, she has 650g per day so anything over £3 per kg is pricey, the butchers around here aren't very friendly and are very expensive and the supermarkets don't have a huge range. I just feel completely useless and hate seeing her like this, I want her to have a carefree, relaxing and fun life, despite being 9-10 years old she acts like a puppy, everyone when out with her thinks she's a pup! I would hate for her to be like this for the rest of her life, the one thing I thought would help was a raw diet and it was my last hope which is now being shattered, and I'm contemplating putting her back on orijen, which I really don't want to do. So I'm calling for help, I find it difficult doing it on my own, and half of the time don't know whether I'm doing right or wrong. I'm having problems myself at the moment which is adding to the stress, I'm in and out of hospital, in and out of the vets, and just generally overwhelmed with everything, and I feel like she is picking up on this. I'd just love some support as I want the best for Cassie, so if anyone could help or suggest anything I would be so, so Grateful!
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to read this,
> Ryan


There are some things worth looking at for skin and itching problems. I know you are wanting to keep as natural as possible and all these are natural.

You can get seasonal itch allergy to grasses and pollens at certain times of year. Dermacton, shampoo bar, spray and cream form has helped with a lot of skin problems and itchiness.
Ive linked you so that you can read up on it.
Dermacton - Skin Relief for Dogs with Itchy Skin

There is also skin supplements that you can get for itchy and problem skin as well as overall health.

Probiotic for Dogs | Dog digestion / skin + coat supplement | Pooch and Mutt

There is also Yumega and Yumega Plus the plus being for sensitive itchy skin
Itchy Dog? Treat Dog Skin Problems, & Conditions with YUMEGA Plus - Lintbells

Veterinary strength supplements for skin health are viacutan Plus
Viacutan Plus 95ml EFA Liquid Pump - £18.79

Viacutan Plus Capsules 550mg EFA - From £9.58

Efavet is good too
Efavet 330 Efavet 660 EFA Capsules - From £23.36

I agree with Dertie Gertie too, dogs can be allergic to certain meat proteins
so by starting an exclusion diet and only feeding one type at a time for a few weeks would likely be a good start.

Other problems causing itchy and problem skin are also, skin and fur mites these are usually microscopic. Bacterial and fungal infections, and yeast overgrowth

You can actually get something called seasonal itch, where grasses and pollens cause problems at certain times of year. Another problem at this time of year is often harvest mites they will drive a dog mad with itching. These you can see usually as little red/brownish dots, its the larvae stage that causes problems. Some dogs can get a flea allergy and sometimes it only needs one bite to set it off as its usually the saliva that causes the allergy.

You can actually have them allergy tested to find out if its allergys what things they are allergic too. If you dont get relief it might also be worth having a skin scrape done and sending it off for culture otherwise if the vet hasnt already done one. Even then things like sarcoptic mites which burrow in the skin and are intensely itchy, only show up in skin scrapes in about 20% of cases I think it is, but there is a blood test for sarcoptic thats more accurate. Vets have missed sarcoptic before now otherwise.

One thing you can try is the pinna reflex sometimes in dogs with sarcoptic mange if you gently scratch the ears and ear margins then the back leg goes in a scratching motion, sometimes that gives an idea if it may be sarcoptic mites.


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## ryanr

Sled dog hotel said:


> There are some things worth looking at for skin and itching problems. I know you are wanting to keep as natural as possible and all these are natural.
> 
> You can get seasonal itch allergy to grasses and pollens at certain times of year. Dermacton, shampoo bar, spray and cream form has helped with a lot of skin problems and itchiness.
> Ive linked you so that you can read up on it.
> Dermacton - Skin Relief for Dogs with Itchy Skin
> 
> There is also skin supplements that you can get for itchy and problem skin as well as overall health.
> 
> Probiotic for Dogs | Dog digestion / skin + coat supplement | Pooch and Mutt
> 
> There is also Yumega and Yumega Plus the plus being for sensitive itchy skin
> Itchy Dog? Treat Dog Skin Problems, & Conditions with YUMEGA Plus - Lintbells
> 
> Veterinary strength supplements for skin health are viacutan Plus
> Viacutan Plus 95ml EFA Liquid Pump - £18.79
> 
> Viacutan Plus Capsules 550mg EFA - From £9.58
> 
> Efavet is good too
> Efavet 330 Efavet 660 EFA Capsules - From £23.36


Thank you for your lengthy reply! Lots of info and links that I can check on here, and Ill refer back to the supplements and shampoos if the elimination diet doesnt work. Although it sounds awful, If I give her anything like that at the moment it will only disguise the symptoms of itching, so I wont know if other things Im doing are working or not. But if things get worse, or I cant figure out what the itching is caused by Ill definitely be looking at them , because I dont want her to be miserable.



Sled dog hotel said:


> I agree with Dertie Gertie too, dogs can be allergic to certain meat proteins
> so by starting an exclusion diet and only feeding one type at a time for a few weeks would likely be a good start.


Ive started the elimination diet, shes now been on chicken leg quarters for the past 2 days, no change as of yet. She did get another hotspot on her face yesterday which Im treating with salt water, drying with the hairdryer, and then applying Daktarin powder; they appear to clear up quick that way. She was at the vets a couple of days ago and had her anal glands emptied, they were blocked and pretty full which could have contributed to the biting her back end, but shes still doing that today.



Sled dog hotel said:


> Other problems causing itchy and problem skin are also, skin and fur mites these are usually microscopic. Bacterial and fungal infections, and yeast overgrowth
> 
> You can actually get something called seasonal itch, where grasses and pollens cause problems at certain times of year. Another problem at this time of year is often harvest mites they will drive a dog mad with itching. These you can see usually as little red/brownish dots, its the larvae stage that causes problems. Some dogs can get a flea allergy and sometimes it only needs one bite to set it off as its usually the saliva that causes the allergy.


I think she does have seasonal itch, when she goes running through the fields in the park she always comes back home with red itchy eyes, and shell also sneeze so I try to keep her away from the long grasses as much as possible. I have hayfever pretty bad, and when mine is bad I can usually tell that hers is too but she also itches through winter, so its not the sole cause, she also has piraton to try and help the symptoms but it doesnt seem to work too well. I have checked her fur thoroughly everyday over the past few weeks, mainly checking for hotspots on her skin where shes been itching, but Ive not come across any red /brownish mites so I dont think she has these. As for fleas I did treat for fleas a few days ago, and it always seems to get rid of them quite quickly, she plays with lots of dogs so it wouldnt surprise me if she gets them often, but I usually get bitten by them, (they like me more than the dog!) and thats when I usually know she has them, I guess that could take a couple of weeks to calm down if it was fleas.



Sled dog hotel said:


> You can actually have them allergy tested to find out if its allergys what things they are allergic too. If you dont get relief it might also be worth having a skin scrape done and sending it off for culture otherwise if the vet hasnt already done one. Even then things like sarcoptic mites which burrow in the skin and are intensely itchy, only show up in skin scrapes in about 20% of cases I think it is, but there is a blood test for sarcoptic thats more accurate. Vets have missed sarcoptic before now otherwise.
> 
> One thing you can try is the pinna reflex sometimes in dogs with sarcoptic mange if you gently scratch the ears and ear margins then the back leg goes in a scratching motion, sometimes that gives an idea if it may be sarcoptic mites.


Ive been advised on the allergy tests to not have one done, due to the long list of things that come back that theyre supposedly allergic to, but I will think about it if nothing seems to help. As for the skin scrape that is one thing that we will get done if the food elimination diet doesnt work. As Ive mentioned in a previous post, if she does have yeast, and/or allergies to demodex mites, only dogs with an underlying problem are allergic to them so its more of a symptom than a cause. So it would probably just be better sorting out the underlying problem which is hopefully some kind of allergy, hence the food elimination diet. Ive tried the pinna reflex test before, and she doesnt lift her hind leg when scratching her inner ear, she just tilts her head as though shes getting relief from it. Her ears for the past week whilst shes been badly itching have been quite pink and hot.

I will concentrate on food allergies for the time being as it seems the cheapest and most likely problem (hopefully) for the recent influx of itching. If that doesnt help anything in the next few months, Ill try a skin test, and blood test for mites/bacteria etc. Ill also have other tests done to check on her overall health to make sure its not thyroid problems etc. which is causing her to have yeast infections etc. I just dread to think how much it would cost! But it doesnt seem likely due to it coming on worse when switching to raw, I have read that feeding raw food could bring out an allergy due to it being the pure proteins that havent been modified so it can give more of a reaction, whereas when cooked in kibble, its more of a dumbed down protein so less of a reaction, which seems to fit in well. But then again Ive heard of the opposite too!

Ill just have to see how things go, and hope that it is one of the proteins in her raw diet! I hope I'm doing things in the correct order, and not doing anything wrong.

Thanks once again for your reply, it's great to know that people are out there who are willing to help, It's difficult doing it without support


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## Veebers

This is so useful :thumbup:

Am new to the forum (hello!) and have been feeding raw to my new vizsla pup for a few days now. Instinctively, and led by his breeder, I've started on chicken, but need to know the next steps and had questions re bones. 

Shall swot up this afternoon. 

And doubtless I'll be back with questions!:001_cool:

Veebers.


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## ryanr

I think she's going to have to go back on kibble, she just won't stop biting and itching, mostly her back end for some reason. She's been on only chicken for over a week now but I can't keep doing it because I feel so sorry for her. Whenever I take her ecollar off she's itching instantly. Don't know if to try kibble first or go back to the vets to be told its allergies... again...


----------



## Coffee

ryanr said:


> I think she's going to have to go back on kibble, she just won't stop biting and itching, mostly her back end for some reason. She's been on only chicken for over a week now but I can't keep doing it because I feel so sorry for her. Whenever I take her ecollar off she's itching instantly. Don't know if to try kibble first or go back to the vets to be told its allergies... again...


Hi Ryan,

I've just read the last couple of pages of this thread and I'm sorry to hear of the troubles Cassie is going through with her itching 

I'm afraid I have no experience in this sort of issue but another member on here, Mckenzie, had terrible problems with itching in her Westie... would be worth doing a 'search' for her threads and see if any of the replies help you out.

One thing I will say though is, don't think you're depriving her by only giving her chicken at the moment... I promise you, she won't see it like that! I'm pretty new to raw myself and when I first started my boy Alfie on it he was on chicken for the first week (varieties of... mince, thighs and chunks) and then the 2nd week I introduced tripe but only for 3 meals in the whole week so even his 2nd week was about 80% chicken.


----------



## ryanr

Coffee said:


> Hi Ryan,
> 
> I've just read the last couple of pages of this thread and I'm sorry to hear of the troubles Cassie is going through with her itching
> 
> I'm afraid I have no experience in this sort of issue but another member on here, Mckenzie, had terrible problems with itching in her Westie... would be worth doing a 'search' for her threads and see if any of the replies help you out.
> 
> One thing I will say though is, don't think you're depriving her by only giving her chicken at the moment... I promise you, she won't see it like that! I'm pretty new to raw myself and when I first started my boy Alfie on it he was on chicken for the first week (varieties of... mince, thighs and chunks) and then the 2nd week I introduced tripe but only for 3 meals in the whole week so even his 2nd week was about 80% chicken.


Hi Coffee, thanks for your reply 

I'm not too worried about depriving her of other foods as such, just feeling really bad about her itching and being really agitated by it and then putting the ecollar on to stop her itching... it must drive her crazy. I could go another week on chicken to see if she does stop itching but the intense itching like this shouldn't be something that she should experience, and seeing as though it came on pretty much over night surely it should go within a week of taking her off what was causing it! Right now, I'd 100% prefer her to go back to the way she was before trying her on raw, as I'm adamant it's something raw that I fed her which she had a bad reaction to.

I'm thinking, I'll put her back on her Royal Canin Hypoallergenic food, I still have half a bag full, despite how bad it's supposed to be she wasn't anywhere near as itchy on it. If after a few weeks of being on that, if her itching goes back to the way it was pre-raw then I know it's something RAW that she was allergic to, (chicken, turkey or beef) and I can try her again on things like Venison maybe. She's always been itchy but this is really intense itching which she hasn't had before. If she doesn't get better on the royal canin then to the vets it will be for blood tests and skin scrapings etc.

I'll have a search of the forums for Mckenzies posts


----------



## Coffee

ryanr said:


> Hi Coffee, thanks for your reply
> 
> I'm not too worried about depriving her of other foods as such, just feeling really bad about her itching and being really agitated by it and then putting the ecollar on to stop her itching... it must drive her crazy. I could go another week on chicken to see if she does stop itching but the intense itching like this shouldn't be something that she should experience, and seeing as though it came on pretty much over night surely it should go within a week of taking her off what was causing it! Right now, I'd 100% prefer her to go back to the way she was before trying her on raw, as I'm adamant it's something raw that I fed her which she had a bad reaction to.
> 
> I'm thinking, I'll put her back on her Royal Canin Hypoallergenic food, I still have half a bag full, despite how bad it's supposed to be she wasn't anywhere near as itchy on it. If after a few weeks of being on that, if her itching goes back to the way it was pre-raw then I know it's something RAW that she was allergic to, (chicken, turkey or beef) and I can try her again on things like Venison maybe. She's always been itchy but this is really intense itching which she hasn't had before. If she doesn't get better on the royal canin then to the vets it will be for blood tests and skin scrapings etc.
> 
> I'll have a search of the forums for Mckenzies posts


Ah sorry I misunderstood you... I thought you were feeling bad from the lack of variety in her diet 

It must be horrible for you to see her in such discomfort, I really do feel for you  I don't know if it's something you've discussed with your vet or not but has he mentioned Piriton at all? I know it would only cure the symptoms (if it worked at all) and not the cuase, but might be worth considering even in the short term.


----------



## ryanr

Coffee said:


> Ah sorry I misunderstood you... I thought you were feeling bad from the lack of variety in her diet
> 
> It must be horrible for you to see her in such discomfort, I really do feel for you  I don't know if it's something you've discussed with your vet or not but has he mentioned Piriton at all? I know it would only cure the symptoms (if it worked at all) and not the cuase, but might be worth considering even in the short term.


No worries, I probably didn't explain so much, I was going to write another long post but don't really want people having to trawl through them all so cutting it short probably made it a bit confusing 

She has had Piriton when she used to scratch a bit on kibble, but it didn't really affect her at all, though I suppose I could try it again as I haven't tried it whilst she's been extremely itchy the past couple of weeks. I've talked numerous times with our vet, I've tried 3 vets in total and they all link it to allergies, but no tests have been done as yet, mainly because I didn't push for it. It does seem to make sense as when changing over to raw she got 500% worse regards to itching.

At the moment I'm just concerned about the bout of intense itching over the past couple of weeks that she's had and less about the ongoing little bit of itching that she used to have, because it used to make her a bit miserable, but this intense itching is making her sore AND miserable and it's my priority to sort it out. I do have an incling the overall itchiness is a yeast infection and the intense itching is allergies, both linked together a bit I guess. So if I can sort out the allergy and get her back to how she was then I can try again to sort out the yeast infection/little bit of itching. I'm just really hoping putting her back on her old food will calm down the itching a bit.

I've been reading Mckenzies posts, been through about 7 of the threads related to the itchiness, and it does seem to be very similar to what cassie has at the moment. I'd be interested in trying the probiotic yogurt. She has had probiotic grain in the past but didn't make much of a difference. Mckenzie also said antifungal shampoo stopped the itching, so I could do worth me finding out which one was used, and give it a go myself, at least that way it'll kind of tell me if it's a yeast infection or something else like mites. I could do with writing up an action plan really!


----------



## Coffee

ryanr said:


> No worries, I probably didn't explain so much, I was going to write another long post but don't really want people having to trawl through them all so cutting it short probably made it a bit confusing
> 
> She has had Piriton when she used to scratch a bit on kibble, but it didn't really affect her at all, though I suppose I could try it again as I haven't tried it whilst she's been extremely itchy the past couple of weeks. I've talked numerous times with our vet, I've tried 3 vets in total and they all link it to allergies, but no tests have been done as yet, mainly because I didn't push for it. It does seem to make sense as when changing over to raw she got 500% worse regards to itching.
> 
> At the moment I'm just concerned about the bout of intense itching over the past couple of weeks that she's had and less about the ongoing little bit of itching that she used to have, because it used to make her a bit miserable, but this intense itching is making her sore AND miserable and it's my priority to sort it out. I do have an incling the overall itchiness is a yeast infection and the intense itching is allergies, both linked together a bit I guess. So if I can sort out the allergy and get her back to how she was then I can try again to sort out the yeast infection/little bit of itching. I'm just really hoping putting her back on her old food will calm down the itching a bit.
> 
> I've been reading Mckenzies posts, been through about 7 of the threads related to the itchiness, and it does seem to be very similar to what cassie has at the moment. I'd be interested in trying the probiotic yogurt. She has had probiotic grain in the past but didn't make much of a difference. Mckenzie also said antifungal shampoo stopped the itching, so I could do worth me finding out which one was used, and give it a go myself, at least that way it'll kind of tell me if it's a yeast infection or something else like mites. I could do with writing up an action plan really!


Must be so frustrating for you, to see her like that 

I'm glad reading Mckenzie's posts have been informative. Sometimes it helps just to know you're not alone doesn't it? I'm sure she wouldn't mind you sending her a message to ask which shampoo she used, I'm positive she'd be happy to help.

I do hope that putting her back on her old food helps, even if it's just to take the edge off the intensity of it. Must be so hard for you.


----------



## ryanr

Coffee said:


> Must be so frustrating for you, to see her like that
> 
> I'm glad reading Mckenzie's posts have been informative. Sometimes it helps just to know you're not alone doesn't it? I'm sure she wouldn't mind you sending her a message to ask which shampoo she used, I'm positive she'd be happy to help.
> 
> I do hope that putting her back on her old food helps, even if it's just to take the edge off the intensity of it. Must be so hard for you.


It does indeed help. I hadn't been on here for a couple of days and was feeling quite down about her, so came on here and your posts and mckenzies similar problems really took that doubt/sadness away and gave me a little boost! Knowing others have solved their problems really is an inspiration! I just hope I don't start getting on peoples nerves with all of my moaning lol

I'll keep people updated on how she goes, in case she gets better, as it may help someone else too. I'll probably create a new thread in a few days as I don't want to take this one off topic.


----------



## Coffee

ryanr said:


> It does indeed help. I hadn't been on here for a couple of days and was feeling quite down about her, so came on here and your posts and mckenzies similar problems really took that doubt/sadness away and gave me a little boost! Knowing others have solved their problems really is an inspiration! I just hope I don't start getting on peoples nerves with all of my moaning lol
> 
> I'll keep people updated on how she goes, in case she gets better, as it may help someone else too. I'll probably create a new thread in a few days as I don't want to take this one off topic.


Aww no, we all need a bit of a moan now and again  I posted so many threads when we were changing to raw I'm surprised they didn't ban me :lol:

A new thread solely about Cassie would be a good idea, you'd have more chance of lots of people seeing it... if you're not feeding raw you'd be unlikely to read this particular thread; things can get missed easily on here sometimes 

Cassie is really very lucky to have you


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## ryanr

Looks like I might be getting somewhere. I noticed pink rashes on her belly today about the size of a 5p coin. So I was hunting through her fur and came a cross a humongous flea! About 4mm long and it jumped right in my face. Its in the area she's itching a lot. Its the first thing I thought when she started itching a couple of weeks ago and i put frontline on to rule it out and concentrated on other possibilities, I don't know why it hasn't worked. Going to get researching on fleas and try everything I can to get rid of them in the house. I really hope this is the reason she's itching so much because at least I know what's causing it now, she might be fine on raw afterall!


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## niki

Sorry I haven't read all of your posts but hopefully it will be something as simple as damn fleas that are causing you problems. Just thought I'd let you know that a few people on here (any myself) have noticed that frontline is no longer as effective as it used to be. If you do a search I'm sure there's been a number of threads about it. 

Agree with Coffee tho about starting your own thread, you'll get much more response.


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## ryanr

I shall do just that niki, just felt a bit bad about starting yet another "my dog has fleas, alergies, itching, etc...." thread. Deffo seems to not have done anything to her fleas, I'll buy some acclaim 2000 spray for the house tonight I think, I dread to think the place could be infested with them! She's only had fleas once before and frontline worked, but that was about 3 years ago.

I shall get making a new thread tonight when I have a bit of time, thanks


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## Frankthewonderhound

Would you class the chicken mince as a complete??


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## DirtyGertie

Frankthewonderhound said:


> Would you class the chicken mince as a complete??


Complete as in meat: bone: offal ratio? You'd need to check the ingredients of the brand. DAF minces are complete in that respect.

I take it you're talking about for a dog rather than a cat? It wouldn't be complete for a cat as cats need taurine.


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## xxxnickixxx

when feeding raw diet would you have to inc liver heart lung kidney ? would they be ok with just complete mince and bone meals like chicken lamb ribs ect ?


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## DirtyGertie

xxxnickixxx said:


> when feeding raw diet would you have to inc liver heart lung kidney ? would they be ok with just complete mince and bone meals like chicken lamb ribs ect ?


Some minces are complete, as in the correct(ish) ratio of meat: bones: offal, i.e. DAF minces. Some minces say they are complete and include veggies and rice (Natural Instinct I think). Some are just meat and say there may be up to 4% bone present (Prize Choice). You'd need to check whatever brand you are thinking of using.

I use DAF minces for up to 50% of Poppy's diet. After contacting DAF regarding confusion as to how much liver is included (previously discussed on the forum) I was told it depends on the carcass and it can be up to 5% liver but can be as little as 1 or 2% liver.

What I do is work out how much offal Poppy would need i.e. 5% liver and 5% other, and then knock a bit off to allow for whatever may be in the minces she gets. I then add that offal to other meat chunks she gets. So I could maybe feed a DAF mince for breakfast and I could then give her some chicken chunks with added liver (or kidney) for tea. I don't add anything extra when feeding a boney meal such as ribs or chicken wings, Poppy is only small so one chicken wing is enough for a meal, I save the extra offal for when she is having a meaty chunk meal.

By the way, heart is not classed as offal, it's classed as muscle meat.

I don't feed lung.


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## xxxnickixxx

im looking at DAF minces so if there complete would my dog be fine with just chicken and tripe minces and bones to chew on ?


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## DirtyGertie

Ideally you would need a bit more liver, as explained DAF admitted the amount of offal varies depending on the carcass and the liver can be as little as 1 or 2% whereas the ideal ratio should be 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver and 5% other offal. You could add a bit extra offal with some of the minces if that's all your dog is getting in the way of meaty meals (rather than meat chunks for some meals).


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## xxxnickixxx

would i get the offal in there by giveing mince like beef and liver ?


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## DirtyGertie

xxxnickixxx said:


> would i get the offal in there by giveing mince like beef and liver ?


I assume you mean a DAF beef and liver mince? If so then I don't know the ratio of liver in that particular mince as I don't use it. Perhaps ring DAF and ask them. It should be more than the 1 - 5% that's in the other minces I would think.

The easiest thing to do would be just to add some extra offal in the form of kidney and liver with some of the meals occasionally.

This is how I work it out for Poppy, I am actually about to lower the amount I give her because she's put on some weight so I'll go by the weight the vet said she should stay at when she was spayed, i.e. 5kg.

1 days worth of food @ 3% = 5000 x 3% = 150g

I portion up 10 days worth at a time so that would be 1500g

Working on the 80/10/10 ratio, over 10 days that would be

Meat 80% = 1500 x 80% = 1200g
Bone 10% = 1500 x 10% = 150g
Offal 10%:
Kidney 5% = 1500 x 5% = 75g
Liver 5% = 1500 x 5% = 75g

I lower the kidney and liver a bit to allow for some offal being in the DAF minces, so I would probably add 60g of each over the 10 day period.

I don't give the liver or the kidney in one meal, I add half of them to each of 4 different meals, so that's 30g of kidney in each of 2 meals, and 30g of liver in each of 2 other meals.

So a fairly typical menu for Poppy would be

Day 1 - DAF mince for breakfast (say 70g); chicken wing for tea (say 80g).
Day 2 - DAF mince for breakfast plus liver (40g mince, 30g liver) chicken wing for tea (say 80g)
Day 3 - DAF mince for breakfast (say 75g); tripe chunks for tea (75g)
etc
Day 5 I would add the kidney to the mince or meat chunks

Day 7 I would add liver

Day 10 I would add kidney

That gives the offal allowance spread over 10 days. You could do it over a month if you wish, you could give the offal all in one meal if you wish.

If you give too much liver pup will get too soft/runny poos so you could decrease the liver until you were happy with the firmness of the poos. If poos too hard and crumbly then lower the bone amount a bit.

Looks long winded and complicated, I hope I've explained it well enough.


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## Megan345

Thank you to everyone who's contributed to this thread. I've read the whole thing, as well as all the links and lots of other stuff I've found, and we're just about ready to start feeding raw! I figured we'd start with some bone in chicken mince for a week or so (I read somewhere they need to get 'used' to digesting bone, so this would be a good way to introduce it, I reckon). We'll then move onto proper meat and offal. I've only managed to find two suppliers at a reasonable price without veg that will deliver to Swansea, so far, so I'm going to need to wander around butchers and markets to find decent lumps of meat, I think! 

Quick question - knuckle bones with more bone attached seem to be the best I could find online. The meat and sinew on knuckle bones is apparently meant to be good for their teeth, but is this a bone they can actually eat? And the bone that would be attached to it, is this a weight bearing bone? (Probably a very obvious question, sorry!  )

Thanks again!


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## MrRustyRead

very very confused! so you dont have to feed veg? do you need to add any supplements?


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## Megan345

As I'm sure you've gathered, I'm far from an expert, but from what I've gleaned, no. Only meat, bone and offal is necessary for dogs, (half of the offal being liver) but some people do feed veg. I think it needs to be pureed if you do though, something to do with dogs being unable to break down the cell walls and therefore it not digesting properly, I guess. I'm a bit hazy on the supplements, but again, I don't think they're necessary, but some people add fish oil. 

The veg and supplements bit comes from the BARF diet, the raw meaty bones diet is the one without. I'm sure someone will be along to correct me if I'm wrong


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## MrRustyRead

Megan345 said:


> As I'm sure you've gathered, I'm far from an expert, but from what I've gleaned, no. Only meat, bone and offal is necessary for dogs, (half of the offal being liver) but some people do feed veg. I think it needs to be pureed if you do though, something to do with dogs being unable to break down the cell walls and therefore it not digesting properly, I guess. I'm a bit hazy on the supplements, but again, I don't think they're necessary, but some people add fish oil.
> 
> The veg and supplements bit comes from the BARF diet, the raw meaty bones diet is the one without. I'm sure someone will be along to correct me if I'm wrong


so much different information, so so confusing!


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## Goblin

I'll try to keep this as simple as possible but, as with all things, most is opinion.

There are 2 main types of raw feeders. The first type is, what we call here "Prey Model Feeders". They believe that a dog is a carnivore and should be able to get all they need from a meat/bone/organ diet as this is what a dog is designed to eat. The ratio by the way is to simulate a complete carcass over an extended period of time. Whilst they don't mind giving the right kind of additional table scraps including vegetables it's excess and not necessarily required. When I say right kind you should avoid onion for example.

The second type is normally referred to as BARF feeders. They believe the addition of vegetables is (here's where it gets difficult) either necessary or an advantage. Some believe that dogs are omnivores rather than carnivores.

Other types of raw feeders (not here but may come across them during research) include those who will only give complete prey such as whole rabbits etc fur on. They would call their method Prey Model and call our version Frankenprey.

As I said I think it boils down simply to the question of are dogs carnivores or omnivores. However... life isn't simple. There is an argument that the meat today, especially from high production farming isn't as nutritious as it has been through history. Therefore additional nutrients are required to replace this lost nutrition. This may be in the form of vegetables or supplements. If vegetables then they need to be processed first (blended for example) as dogs are not good at extracting nutrients from plant matter.

What is contained in this thread (and others) are people's experiences and opinions normally split between those who feed prey model and those who feed BARF. It's up to you to make a decision on the feeding model you prefer although who is to say it's go in the middle leaning one way or the other. You need to research and make you own decision looking towards what you feel is best for your dog. Same goes for supplements although I will say if you need to supplement extensively I would say there is something wrong with the base diet.


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## Megan345

MrRustyRead said:


> so much different information, so so confusing!


Very true! Goblin explains it much more succinctly than I did. As I said, I've done a lot of reading, and read through a lot of people's experiences. There's a lot of information out there, but as I think someone else said, if you based every decision on stuff you read on the Internet, you'd never do anything. I've found things saying that dogs must only have cooked meat and bones, vegetables are crucial, any bones will kill your dog, and all kinds of other things that I know just aren't true, or downright dangerous. Add that to a lot of vets thinking a raw diet is a bad idea, and it seems quite difficult to know who to listen to.

I've tried to sift the gold from the dross, and I'm basically just going to buy some meat, introduce a new type each week, add a little bit of organ after a couple of weeks, and see what agrees with her and what doesn't. A lot of it seems to be 'whatever agrees with your dog best', and keeping an eye on what comes out the other end, so that's what I'm going for.


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## Goblin

Bet my reading list is larger than yours 

Couple of basic rules you really need to follow..
1) Don't overfeed. Raw amounts look small but overfeeding causes problems (especially loose poop)
2) Go slowly. Don't be in a rush to introduce new meat types, especially when looking at organs and liver eventually.

I think an increasing amount of vets do actually support raw feeding. Raw Food Vets » Find a Raw Food Vet can be a useful resource although obviously supporting raw feeding does not necessarily mean they are any good.

Don't be afraid to ask questions starting new threads as needed. Make the title descriptive and you'll find lots of people who are able to offer the benefit of their experiences.


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## 2dogs

I switched to the raw diet about 6 weeks ago and dogs are doing great on it, its all a learning curve and I love seeing my dogs tuck into natural foods, I feed mine mainly a diet of chopped chicken pieces (with bone) and tripe, they get chunks of ox heart added in through the week, and twice a week get a meal of organ mince, they get raw meaty bones too, and today have introduced them to minced beef. havent tried the pulped veg/fruit yet but will do and add mixed through tripe so they cant pick it out
My dogs teeth have went from filthy and tartar covered to pearly white in a matter of weeks, and his poop has went from massive loose smelly piles to neat and odourless  have never been more interested in poo in my life


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## Snoopcousins

HELP...!

My Rottie has been on the Prey diet for 6 months and has been doing great.

However....I am on holiday for 2 weeks and he is staying with a family member. I prepped them excactly how to feed etc (leaving all the food in the freezer etc) and it all went well until 2 days ago when they took him to the vets for a viral infection. Vet told them to put him on dog-food (kibble) and they have been feeding him that since yesterday..
I am home on Friday....How is my Rottie going to cope with kibble for these few days and then having to change back to raw??

Any comments are welcome!


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## Kwilson147

I am considering switching my dogs to a raw diet and have found alot of useful info on here. One thing concerns me though - feeding my dogs bones. They are terrible for swallowing things whole, one of them nearly died once and since then I am very cautious the size of things they are fed. They are miniature bull terriers and all weigh average 15kg, what would anyone recommend I do as it seems feeding bones is quite important??


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## Barkley Star

Kwilson147 said:


> I am considering switching my dogs to a raw diet and have found alot of useful info on here. One thing concerns me though - feeding my dogs bones. They are terrible for swallowing things whole, one of them nearly died once and since then I am very cautious the size of things they are fed. They are miniature bull terriers and all weigh average 15kg, what would anyone recommend I do as it seems feeding bones is quite important??


One of mine bolted down anything you gave her, regardless of size. So when I started them out on chicken wings (soft bone and perfect meal size for my 9 kg dogs), I held on to her chicken wing until she learned to eat properly. At first I held it the whole time, then I just waited until she had crunched down on it 3 times and now she eats it fine. Just watch your fingers! Some also suggest bashing it with a hammer a few times. If you give soft bones they will digest even if they go down in quite large chunks.


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## JMADDOCKS

Hi
I feed my Miniature Schnauzer with Natural Instinct and once a week I give him a bone, usually lamb (spine or neck). Not always, but a little too often for my liking, I notice late evening on bone day his stomach making churning noises and occasionally in the early hours he will vomit mostly clear liquid with a small piece or two of bone. The next day he is fine. I guess the bits of bone always comes out one end or the other, but it makes me very nervous. Is this normal? Hoping someone can help.
Jason


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## Goblin

A dog used to commercial food often is not able to digest bone completely compared to those who who feed exclusively raw. I've heard the pH in the stomach is different although I can't find any studies of hand to show this. What happens when bone isn't digested is that the that a dog frequently vomits the bone back up. You'll find many dogs who have "transitioned" into feeding raw full time occasionally had their dog vomit during the transitional period although dogs who have fully transitioned do not. Normally when people start a dog on raw full time they start with chicken as these bones are more easily digested.


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## JMADDOCKS

Thank you, but Natural Instinct is Raw. He has always been fed raw, since a pup. As I said, sometimes this happens, sometimes not, but it is slightly alarming and puts me off giving him bones.


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## pif6455

katiefranke said:


> *update 25/11/2010 *-
> 
> - By request *'Feeding puppies'* section coming soon!
> 
> Hi, Just wanted to know when is this section coming? Loved the rest of the post by the way.


----------



## chazzie10

I took the plunge a week ago to start Charlie on a raw diet as the vet is convinced his itches and sore, icky paws are due to a food allergy. 
I am so pleased. He loves it and is off his piriton and steroid spray already!
He is calmer, much better behaved, not bloated and needs out to the loo once a day instead of 3 or 4 times, his teeth are whiter already and his breath doesnt smell anymore 
Cant believe it....guess I'd better go buy another small freezer for all the meat :yikes:


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## Goblin

Pleased to hear it. Just remember not to rush things when it comes to introducing new meat types and I hope both Charlie and you continue to enjoy the experience. Also would be interested in what the vet says next time. What were you feeding prior to raw?


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## chazzie10

Charlie was tried on a few different dry kibbles to try and find one that he wasnt allergic to...the most recent two were Autarky adult and Autarky Mature Lite... recommended to me because they were holistic, better quality and better for allergies/ sensitivities. Unfortunately he still itched and had red skin between his toes. 
Ive been following this thread from start to finish and it's been very useful 
Charlie has been having just chicken quarters, chicken mince, turkey drumstick and some blended veg. I did try him with a tray of ground chicken with liver and one of tripe with liver from pets at home and he loved them with no after effects from the liver but I'll probably stick to fresh meaty bones and offal. Going to introduce a different meat in the next day or two. Just need to buy that freezer!
The vet is wanting to do a £400 blood test to tell her if it IS a food allergy but it's looking pretty certain it is, as the seasons have changed and seasonal pollens are gone so she doesnt think that would be the cause!


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## christianrene

Thanks for all the tips you gave here. Mine is still a puppy and as of the moment, I'm feeding her dog food, not yet raw meat


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## laurahair

I've read the first 20 pages of this thread  and i'm pretty convinced this is the way to go, slightly concerned it may be a bit pricey but I'm pretty good at shopping the reduced sections of my local supermarkets anyway.
My dog is a 5 yr old greyhound, she is currently eating chudleys greyhound kibble and as far as i know has always been fed this or similar. She eats it but doesn't love it-unlike when she raided my fridge last week and ate a whole raw chicken during the night...

So she weighs 28kg, will need 560-840g a day (2-3%). I have taken out a pack of chicken drumsticks and thighs (440g) and a chicken breast (big one, 200g). Does this sound about right? She normally has her biggest meal in the morning then her longest walk about 2 hours later so i suppose the bone in meat, then breast in evening. Are chicken drumsticks and thighs ok for a dog her size? 
How many days would I feed like this before introducing something else? She already gets a big dog bone from butchers once a week, though they don't have masses of meat on them but do go down well.
She also has a tin of sardines in oil once a week, should i continue with this? She absolutely loves them and I swear that's what has made her coat so shiny


----------



## Gemmaa

For anyone concerned about price, I feed 4 dogs on raw, my orders come to £30 - with delivery, and it lasts 2 months.

Kibble would be costing at least £60 and probably not lasting as long.


----------



## Deb87

Gemmaa said:


> For anyone concerned about price, I feed 4 dogs on raw, my orders come to £30 - with delivery, and it lasts 2 months.
> 
> Kibble would be costing at least £60 and probably not lasting as long.


I thought it would be cheaper, I remember when I was at school we had to ask the butcher for hearts and they were free, other offal is usually pretty cheap too.


----------



## chazzie10

Gemmaa said:


> For anyone concerned about price, I feed 4 dogs on raw, my orders come to £30 - with delivery, and it lasts 2 months.
> 
> Kibble would be costing at least £60 and probably not lasting as long.


Where do you order from Gemmaa?


----------



## Gemmaa

chazzie10 said:


> Where do you order from Gemmaa?


Manifolds Valley .


----------



## chazzie10

I had a chat with my butcher last week but he'd never heard of feeding dogs on a raw diet and seemed to take a lot of convincing! He cant provide me with offcuts, offal or meaty bones as he said all the meat is removed to sell to humans, so bones would be 'bare' and the meat would be at normal retail price, he doesnt get offal or tripe etc coming into the shop at all as he cant sell it so a bit useless and disappointing really. I'll try a different butcher tomorrow though the thoughts of explaining the whole story all over again doesnt appeal to me lol. Its early days so Charlies still just getting chicken and turkey chunks/ carcasses and fish. Liver tried today for the first time and seems to be tolerating it


----------



## chazzie10

Gemmaa said:


> Manifolds Valley .


Thanks, I'll have to look them up and see where they deliver to...there doesnt seem to be many stockists in northern ireland


----------



## Deb87

chazzie10 said:


> I had a chat with my butcher last week but he'd never heard of feeding dogs on a raw diet and seemed to take a lot of convincing! He cant provide me with offcuts, offal or meaty bones as he said all the meat is removed to sell to humans, so bones would be 'bare' and the meat would be at normal retail price, he doesnt get offal or tripe etc coming into the shop at all as he cant sell it so a bit useless and disappointing really. I'll try a different butcher tomorrow though the thoughts of explaining the whole story all over again doesnt appeal to me lol. Its early days so Charlies still just getting chicken and turkey chunks/ carcasses and fish. Liver tried today for the first time and seems to be tolerating it


I know my boyfriends parents get bones from the butcher for their dog, and there is plenty of offal, rabbits etc on the butcher stalls. Maybe its a Northern thing?


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## chazzie10

debs yeah it probably is a NI thing (rolls eyes)  

Ive only tried the one butcher so far...and he wasnt exactly the sharpest tool in the box lol so I'll just try another place


----------



## cinnamontoast

laurahair said:


> I've read the first 20 pages of this thread  and i'm pretty convinced this is the way to go, slightly concerned it may be a bit pricey but I'm pretty good at shopping the reduced sections of my local supermarkets anyway.


Use one of the raw suppliers in the so named thread. Lots cheaper!



Gemmaa said:


> For anyone concerned about price, I feed 4 dogs on raw, my orders come to £30 - with delivery, and it lasts 2 months.


My delivery yesterday totally filled the freezer, £57, will last three months for three springers. 











Deb87 said:


> I thought it would be cheaper, I remember when I was at school we had to ask the butcher for hearts and they were free, other offal is usually pretty cheap too.


No longer, sadly, offal is now a trendy thing and hearts can be quite pricey.


----------



## springfieldbean

I know this is a really stupid question, but can anyone tell me which is bigger, turkey wings or duck wings?  I ordered both in my last raw delivery, but the bags weren't labelled and I don't know which is which! Whichever the small ones were, I don't want them again, but the big ones were great!


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## Izzysmummy

chazzie10 said:


> debs yeah it probably is a NI thing (rolls eyes)
> 
> Ive only tried the one butcher so far...and he wasnt exactly the sharpest tool in the box lol so I'll just try another place


Have you tried PM'ing Dogless? Im not sure where abouts in NI you live but Dogless feeds RAW and is based over there so she may have some ideas about good stockists or butchers? I know in the past she has mentioned that the butcher she uses is really nice and provides loads of stuff fairly cheap and likes to meet the dogs too but it may not be convenient for where you live.


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## Goblin

springfieldbean said:


> which is bigger, turkey wings or duck wings?


Turkey should be bigger. Would be harder if you were comparing goose/turkey. Easy way to remember, think how many days after Christmas a roasted mallard duck you always see on rivers would last.


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## Deb87

chazzie10 said:


> debs yeah it probably is a NI thing (rolls eyes)
> 
> Ive only tried the one butcher so far...and he wasnt exactly the sharpest tool in the box lol so I'll just try another place


Ooops, I meant N. England thing (where I am from). Good luck with the other butchers.


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## laurahair

Have checked out the suppliers, looks like my main expense is going to be another freezer :001_rolleyes:

Tess is just loving her raw diet, she has had chicken in various forms (breast, thighs, legs, mince), some tripe (smells absolutely foul, will be eaten outside in summer i think) and a lamb chop. I hadn't planned to add in another meat so soon, she's only been raw for 4 days but one of my ever-so-helpful children decided to give it to her. That was 24 hours ago and there have been no ill effects just yet so fingers crossed.
On kibble she was pooping about 5-6 times a day, huge monstrous only just firm enough to pick up things. Since going raw she has only been twice, both firm (one with quite a bit of bone in which made her yelp) and very little smell. She doesn't seem uncomfortable or anything, is this normal/ok? I assume she is using lots more of the good food and producing less waste, but it just seems very little very quickly, I don't want her to be constipated. She is weeing about the same but drinking less, I guess raw food has a lot more natural water content so not concerned about that.


----------



## Lil Doglets

laurahair said:


> Have checked out the suppliers, looks like my main expense is going to be another freezer :001_rolleyes:
> 
> Tess is just loving her raw diet, she has had chicken in various forms (breast, thighs, legs, mince), some tripe (smells absolutely foul, will be eaten outside in summer i think) and a lamb chop. I hadn't planned to add in another meat so soon, she's only been raw for 4 days but one of my ever-so-helpful children decided to give it to her. That was 24 hours ago and there have been no ill effects just yet so fingers crossed.
> On kibble she was pooping about 5-6 times a day, huge monstrous only just firm enough to pick up things. Since going raw she has only been twice, both firm (one with quite a bit of bone in which made her yelp) and very little smell. She doesn't seem uncomfortable or anything, is this normal/ok? I assume she is using lots more of the good food and producing less waste, but it just seems very little very quickly, I don't want her to be constipated. She is weeing about the same but drinking less, I guess raw food has a lot more natural water content so not concerned about that.


Glad it's going good so far  1-2 poos a day sounds perfectly normal, i think most raw fed dogs only go 1-2 times a day. The bits of bone will gradually get smaller and less while her body adjusts and digests it better.


----------



## chazzie10

Izzysmummy said:


> Have you tried PM'ing Dogless? Im not sure where abouts in NI you live but Dogless feeds RAW and is based over there so she may have some ideas about good stockists or butchers? I know in the past she has mentioned that the butcher she uses is really nice and provides loads of stuff fairly cheap and likes to meet the dogs too but it may not be convenient for where you live.


Yep she's not too far from me....I just keep forgetting to ask her cos I'm too busy reading about wee Rudi pup :001_rolleyes:


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## chazzie10

Charlies been raw fed now for just over 2 weeks and he drinks and poos far less too. His poop had quite a lot of bone in it too for the first week or so but now they are powdery with no obvious bones.
I've just realised that I've got a lot calmer about the feeding and it's become second nature already....I dont worry about which meat, when and what to add....and I can stand nursing a cup of coffee and enjoy watching the pleasure he's getting from it rather than panicking every time he crunches and swallows the bones like at first!
Happy, shiny, itch free Lab :biggrin:


----------



## laurahair

just updating again, today tess has had 3 very small, firm, quite boney, almost smell free poops. No yelping thankfully!

She just loves her meals, I can honestly say that I really enjoy watching her eat too, the crunching sound is just fab hahaha!

Tonight she has had tripe (super stinky grossness), a chicken leg and a lamb chop, she will have some chicken mince for supper (i feed 1/2 her daily allowance in morning, 1/4 at dinnertime then 1/4 at bedtime).
Tomorrow i think she is having chicken pieces, maybe a bit of liver and some fish


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## chazzie10

The crunching noise is amazing isnt it? Makes me glad my fingers not in his mouth!
The smell of tripe is something else!! I reckon it's definately an outdoor, drop and run away food hehehe


----------



## laurahair

came down to a small pile of vomit this morning, lamb bones by the look of it though they had been crunched up fairly well  I wonder if she ate her chicken mince too fast at bedtime, puked it up along with dinner then re-ate the mince? As revolting as that sounds I think it is a possibility...


----------



## DirtyGertie

If Poppy's sick she eats it, I think it's quite common.

It might be difficult to pinpoint what has made Tess sick though. To be honest I think you might be moving too fast with how many new proteins you are introducing. You said yesterday she has only been on raw for 4 days. In that time she has had chicken, tripe plus an accidental lamb chop. Then you said you had planned to possibly give her a bit of liver and some fish today.

When starting raw it's normal to stick to chicken for the first couple of weeks then introduce one new protein a week and liver last of all. So really, as she's been on raw for less than a week, she should really still be on chicken only, then depending on how many varieties of meat you intend giving her it could take 6 or 8 weeks on minces/meat chunks/bones, then the offal. That way you're giving each new protein a week to see if that particular meat agrees with her. Too much in the mix too early and you wont be able to pinpoint what, if anything, is causing any problems.


----------



## laurahair

thank-you, you're right  I was getting a bit over-enthusiastic there I think! Gave her chicken this morning, then chicken mince just now. She'll have a bit more chicken mince later on, liver is still in freezer and can wait a while.


----------



## DirtyGertie

laurahair said:


> thank-you, you're right  I was getting a bit over-enthusiastic there I think! Gave her chicken this morning, then chicken mince just now. She'll have a bit more chicken mince later on, liver is still in freezer and can wait a while.


:thumbup:

It's so easy to get enthusiastic and excited about raw feeding, particularly when the dog's so keen on their new food and obviously enjoying it. Poppy was never enthusiastic about commercial food and had to be bribed to eat it, but she loves her raw and has never refused anything and waits eagerly while I get it ready. She's just gulped down a chunk of raw salmon weighing about 70g, gagged on it, but still swallowed. She's a proper suck it in and swallow eater. I'm wondering if I'll see it again later on  - hope not as I'm supposed to be going out and she'll be on her own for a couple of hours tonight. I wish I'd given it to her this morning now instead of the chicken wing - my fingers reek of raw oily fish and I'm going out .


----------



## sligy

Ok after reading this, i cant wait to get Hugo started on raw feeding. I am struggling with the maths tho, sorry but if im a bit ninney when i have to work with numbers.

Hugo's fully grown weight should be around 100 - 150lb according to what i have read on the net, he is 100lb at the moment and nearly a year old. So what weight of food should i be giving??


----------



## laurahair

hiya, the guide is approx 2-3% adult weight so for hugo that would be 3-4.5lbs per day  (the higher end for more active dogs and as he's not yet fully grown I think i'd be inclined towards the higher end anyway)


----------



## sligy

laurahair said:


> hiya, the guide is approx 2-3% adult weight so for hugo that would be 3-4.5lbs per day  (the higher end for more active dogs and as he's not yet fully grown I think i'd be inclined towards the higher end anyway)


What meats would you start with? and what about the bones in chicken? sorry if these are really silly questions


----------



## Goblin

Slightly different here which goes to show how everyone has their own opinions. When starting I prefer to start on the lower end of the scale adjusting as necessary going by look and feel of the dog in question. There's a couple of reasons for this. First is portion sizes seem small when feeding. The temptation to say "he needs" more and add just smidgin more can often mean you feed too much (go on, admit it how many people have done that  ). The second reason is poop control. If you overfeed you are more likely to get looser poop, just as if you feed a dog extra commercial food. Ultimately however it comes down to knowing your dog. Always remember these figures are guidelines only. Some dogs need far more, others need less. 

If it were me I'd also take photos of teeth before and after (if not white already) and also pictures of the general build of a dog for comparison purposes. It's not easy noticing changes when they happen slowly unless you have something to compare it with.


----------



## laurahair

Goblin said:


> Slightly different here which goes to show how everyone has their own opinions. When starting I prefer to start on the lower end of the scale adjusting as necessary going by look and feel of the dog in question. There's a couple of reasons for this. First is portion sizes seem small when feeding. The temptation to say "he needs" more and add just smidgin more can often mean you feed too much (go on, admit it how many people have done that  ). The second reason is poop control. If you overfeed you are more likely to get looser poop, just as if you feed a dog extra commercial food. Ultimately however it comes down to knowing your dog. Always remember these figures are guidelines only. Some dogs need far more, others need less.
> 
> If it were me I'd also take photos of teeth before and after (if not white already) and also pictures of the general build of a dog for comparison purposes. It's not easy noticing changes when they happen slowly unless you have something to compare it with.


some interesting stuff here-my dog had relatively loose poop on kibble and i saw an improvement straightaway, also she tends towards the lean end so I was happy to go with the bigger quantity. Oh and I measure out her food into portion size bags and freeze as meals, no temptation to give more then 

I started with chicken pieces, mince and tripe. We had an accidental lamb chop incident the other day and I was in danger of getting carried away and introducing too much too soon  So here it's chicken and tripe only for now, I'll try another new meat every week. As for bones, once again I got a bit carried away I think and poor Tess had some difficulty with boney poo to start with, I was giving chicken legs and thighs for her main meals. Have adjusted so that her main meal is meat only, and just giving chicken wings for bone (which only needs to be 10% of overall diet anyway, but differs according to individuals-poo will tell you if you need more or less).
It's a learning curve but an enjoyable one


----------



## Goblin

Prey Model or BARF.. that is the question. I think both are similar to the How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw site with BARF adding veg. The HELP!!! | Prey Model Raw is well worth a read as well.


----------



## laurahair

having cut back on the bones I found tonights meal a bit disappointing-Tess had 300g turkey pieces (so similar to chicken I'm not classing it as a new protein). She did chew them thoroughly, she's not a gulp and swallow dog, but it still took her less than 2 mins to eat. I miss the bone crunching!

Paying a tiny bit today for yesterdays bin raid with a little bit looser poop but not too bad, think she has an iron digestive system (she ate days old pizza, kebab, mouldy cheese).

After my slip up with the lamb I'm sticking to chicken/turkey for a few more days even though we started nearly a week ago just to be safe.


----------



## DirtyGertie

sligy said:


> *What meats would you start with?* and what about the bones in chicken? sorry if these are really silly questions


If you've had to ask that question, I would suggest (in the nicest possible way) that you haven't done a lot of research into raw feeding or you would know that it's normal to start with chicken only for the first couple of weeks and then gradually add in other proteins one a week. You'd also know that it's fine to give raw chicken bones but no cooked bones of any description.

I hope that doesn't come across as harsh, I just think that raw feeding needs to be fully understood before taking the plunge. It took me weeks of reading this thread from the beginning to fully understand all about raw feeding before I started. It's a lot to get your head round but once you understand it you'll feel confident about it.


----------



## sligy

Well i decided to feed Hugo his first ever raw feed today. 

The look he gave me was hilarious, he pushed it around his bowl for a bit and kept looking at me as tho to say "what do you want me to do with this" but eventually he ate it and i think he really enjoyed it as he kept looking at me for more. 
I gave him a chicken breast and half a kidney. Hoping the kidney will be ok as i heard some saying to wait a while, but as he is a bit of a bin thief i figure he has not got a sensitive stomach so should be ok. 
I think he is looking forward to his next meal, my mum wont do the chi's all raw as she has told me the taste of blood will make them savage  so i am hoping if all goes well and she see's Hugo enjoying it so much and not turning into a aggressive dog she will let the chi's eat it. 

Thanks to all for letting people know about raw feeding.


----------



## BabyBlu

Hi
Thank you so much for the fantastic thread!
I have been reading through a fair few pages, but not all, as there are a lot, so forgive me for repeating questions.

I have started on a raw diet for my puppy. I know that she was on a raw diet at her breeders.
I have gotten her chicken carcasses and meaty bones from my local butcher.
At first she ate the whole carcasses but then she started to leave them. So I went online and bought 50 pouches of various minces with tripe as I know she was on raw mince as a puppy. Then As I had rather a lot of carcasses for her, I cooked them in the oven and stripped all the meat off the cooked bones.
Well I have to say, she prefers cooked chicken at the moment over anything (apart from cheese!) but I want her to be on raw, I just didn't want to waste the meat and my freezer is full up (new freezer for basement on the way)

Should puppies really be on minced raw chicken anyway, rather than carcasses? Actually she loves the meaty bones but I wanted her to have more variety and I waqs worried the meaty bones were not meaty enough for a whole meal. She has eaten raw egg and raw kidney but she is picky and I think 'oh good, she likes this' and then she will never eat it again! 
Im worried about leaving a whole chicken on the floor for 3 days until she is starving enough to eat it!!

Any advice would be most welcome


----------



## Lil Doglets

BabyBlu said:


> Hi
> Thank you so much for the fantastic thread!
> I have been reading through a fair few pages, but not all, as there are a lot, so forgive me for repeating questions.
> 
> I have started on a raw diet for my puppy. I know that she was on a raw diet at her breeders.
> I have gotten her chicken carcasses and meaty bones from my local butcher.
> At first she ate the whole carcasses but then she started to leave them. So I went online and bought 50 pouches of various minces with tripe as I know she was on raw mince as a puppy. Then As I had rather a lot of carcasses for her, I cooked them in the oven and stripped all the meat off the cooked bones.
> Well I have to say, she prefers cooked chicken at the moment over anything (apart from cheese!) but I want her to be on raw, I just didn't want to waste the meat and my freezer is full up (new freezer for basement on the way)
> 
> Should puppies really be on minced raw chicken anyway, rather than carcasses? Actually she loves the meaty bones but I wanted her to have more variety and I waqs worried the meaty bones were not meaty enough for a whole meal. She has eaten raw egg and raw kidney but she is picky and I think 'oh good, she likes this' and then she will never eat it again!
> Im worried about leaving a whole chicken on the floor for 3 days until she is starving enough to eat it!!
> 
> Any advice would be most welcome


Carcasses and pieces are better than minces really, they are fresher and have less bacteria as they have less surface area and haven't been exposed to air longer for processing etc like minces (ofc minces are still completely fine to feed though ) but also remember minces don't clean the teeth and give such a good workout 

You say she ate the whole carcass was that all in one meal? Seems rather alot for 1 meal for a small puppy, if a carcass is a days worth of food you can just give it, let her eat half or a third (depending how many meals your feeding) then take it away and put back in fridge or freezer for another meal later.
Or you could feed a mince breakfast and then give half a carcass for dinner (or a quarter for lunch and again for dinner if your feeding 3 meals)

I would think really if she was fed on raw by the breeder you should be adding new meat by now, she may be getting picky as it's just chicken all the time. Take it slow though, 1 new meat each week just replace a couple of meals then if all goes fine the next week you can add another new meat.
Tripe is great stuff that most dogs love, and doesn't usually cause any tummy problems so would certainly start getting some of that in her diet 

Generally offal is left as the last thing to introduce, but with a young puppy it's probably better to start very small amounts, just little and often as you want to make sure she is getting everything she needs while growing. Giving too much too soon could cause the runs so maybe just start with half of her weekly allowance and split that into each days meal, if all is fine then increase a bit the next week until she's having full amount and then you can start splitting it into less meals to make it more convenient 
If she's being picky with offal you can try mixing it into her minces too


----------



## BabyBlu

Thank you so much for your help, ill try it. I have bought 50 pouches of raw mince, so I will have to use that up. I thought maybe mince would be easier to digest for a puppy, rather than plunging in with whole carcasses, which is what I did. I asked the breeder, she said she gives carcass in the morning and mince in the evening. I was planning to do bigger chunks, as you say, for the teeth, and for her enjoyment.
I was probably giving her too much, but she is so fussy, some days she eats so little. Mind you she seems to like the minced raw chicken. 

Thanks again


----------



## laurahair

raw feeders with bigger dogs (mine is 28kg), how much freezer space do you need for a months food?
This is only really feasible for me if I buy from DAF but their minimum order is £30, that would give me about a months worth of minces, pieces etc but I don't know if i'd have space for it? I am buying a new freezer this week, it'll be an under-counter one with about 70 l storage space but if that's not enough then I will have to re-assess what to feed as it will be way too expensive 

Another poo question too (sorry!), I cut back on bones a bit as Tess' poo was causing her to yelp so I thought it was too much bone in her diet, but it has very quickly gone loose so I have obviously yet to find a happy medium. However, she is very quick to yelp at the slightest thing it seems (drama queen dog?) so should I just accept that she will occasionally make a fuss over pooping and get used to it? On kibble her poos were always very very soft so this is a big difference for her I suppose.

One last question, I started feeding her 2% bodyweight but have increased to 3% as she seems to be constantly hungry. She is still mooching a lot though, and when she finishes a meal still seems hungry and not satisfied. Is this normal? Just a greedy dog?


----------



## GoldenShadow

laurahair said:


> raw feeders with bigger dogs (mine is 28kg), how much freezer space do you need for a months food?
> This is only really feasible for me if I buy from DAF but their minimum order is £30, that would give me about a months worth of minces, pieces etc but I don't know if i'd have space for it? I am buying a new freezer this week, it'll be an under-counter one with about 70 l storage space but if that's not enough then I will have to re-assess what to feed as it will be way too expensive
> 
> Another poo question too (sorry!), I cut back on bones a bit as Tess' poo was causing her to yelp so I thought it was too much bone in her diet, but it has very quickly gone loose so I have obviously yet to find a happy medium. However, she is very quick to yelp at the slightest thing it seems (drama queen dog?) so should I just accept that she will occasionally make a fuss over pooping and get used to it? On kibble her poos were always very very soft so this is a big difference for her I suppose.
> 
> One last question, I started feeding her 2% bodyweight but have increased to 3% as she seems to be constantly hungry. She is still mooching a lot though, and when she finishes a meal still seems hungry and not satisfied. Is this normal? Just a greedy dog?


Not really bigger dogs, but:

I have 2 x retrievers, I feed them as if they are both 30kg (one is a couple kg less but has a faster metabolism).

In my undercounter freezer I can get 32kgs worth of food which will feed my two for 4 weeks. Usually that's made up of carcasses, tripe, liver, kidney, trotters, ribs and at the moment some mince too.

What breed is your dog? How many meals a day do you feed?

Gotta be honest no matter how much bone mine eat, *touch wood* they've never been constipated. Poo will be more crumbly but their body just excretes it no problem. Mine will eat something boney every day, ie chicken carcass and liver, and some days chicken carcass and pigs trotter etc. Unless she is physically struggling to go I wouldn't be that concerned, *but* I don't know your dog and yelping would concern me as mine don't do that  Maybe wean her onto more bone and see if increasing it very slowly helps. Perhaps her back end is a bit sore, you could always pop her along to the vets to make sure her anal glands etc are all OK.


----------



## laurahair

GoldenShadow said:


> Not really bigger dogs, but:
> 
> I have 2 x retrievers, I feed them as if they are both 30kg (one is a couple kg less but has a faster metabolism).
> 
> In my undercounter freezer I can get 32kgs worth of food which will feed my two for 4 weeks. Usually that's made up of carcasses, tripe, liver, kidney, trotters, ribs and at the moment some mince too.
> 
> What breed is your dog? How many meals a day do you feed?
> 
> Gotta be honest no matter how much bone mine eat, *touch wood* they've never been constipated. Poo will be more crumbly but their body just excretes it no problem. Mine will eat something boney every day, ie chicken carcass and liver, and some days chicken carcass and pigs trotter etc. Unless she is physically struggling to go I wouldn't be that concerned, *but* I don't know your dog and yelping would concern me as mine don't do that  Maybe wean her onto more bone and see if increasing it very slowly helps. Perhaps her back end is a bit sore, you could always pop her along to the vets to make sure her anal glands etc are all OK.


Thanks for the reply  She is a greyhound, I feed her half her food in the morning, then 1/4 at dinner time and last 1/4 just before bed. She seems to be crunching up her bones really well, the poo can be a bit crumbly definitely. I accidentally trod on her foot yesterday but didn't put my full weight on, she yelped as if I had jumped on it wearing massive boots! I didn't think about any soreness, if she continues I will go and get her checked, thank you for the advice.
Today she had some chicken thighs for breakfast, I removed some of the bones but not all, and she'll be having similar later. Introduced some pork yesterday (just loin steaks, mega bargain in reduced section!), haven't noticed any ill effects today so I'm going to try a bit more pork in a couple of days time and if all is well I'll tick that box 

Oh and the freezer sounds good, I'll go ahead and get it ordered then place a DAF order


----------



## GingerRogers

Two questions which I think I know the answer to but just checking as I am new to this? 

Ginge has shaken quite violently after eating . A lot of you say you feed the food frozen to give more of a workout. I have been partially defrosting just so she knows its food but this has happened when its a bit more frozen than not, has anyone else had this? I guess I stop feeding frozen?

I gave Ginge some sprats for brekky the other day and she threw them straight back (they were a little frozen still though so see above), she had had a couple the night before and was fine, was it just that I gave her too many, I may have got carried away. Should I try again a bit slower or let the hubby eat them?


----------



## pogo

frozen food is absolutely fine to give, but she may just not be used to it, you could try giving it a tiny bit frozen and working up to fully frozen and see who sees goes with that


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## GingerRogers

The shaking has stopped as long as the food is mostly defrosted, its a bit annoying as I liked the idea of it taking longer to eat and I am not as organised as I could be and have to keep microwaving stuff but no biggy.

The sprats still seem to be an issue though, she has been having a single one every now and then, I have been chopping them into 4 otherwise she just stares at them  today decided to try her on two with a small drumstick (chickens seem to be shrinking at the moment in proportion to the giant turkey legs growing ) for brekky and left them whole. Came straight back up again, not that that was a problem for her managed to get her to the back door, brekky came back just before she got out but she still bounded out like she hadn't just thrown up anyone else have an issue with this. Not sure whether to persevere or just give the occasional one chopped up, seems a bit odd. Is it the bones, I don't think so but why would this be happening?


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## WorkingSheepDogs

this is a brilliant thread, thanks so much to everyone who has contributed!

I have been feeding my 6 dogs on Natural Instinct but I just cant afford to keep doing so. They are doing brilliantly on it but the 2-3% ratio feeding amount just seems a fallacy as only one of my 6 manages on this amount, the others all have way more to keep from being too ribby. 

Ive been looking at alternatives and am about to order form Berriwood but am unsure whether to go for the berriewood preium or barf meats. Anyone got any experience of them? When I rang they said the BARF meats are a courser product and the premium a more commercial type product that looks nicer. One concern I do have is that i very much like the sealed tubs the NI comes in and how easy and clean that is to work with. From what theyve said the Premium range might suit me better but isnt such a course grind ?

Also, have one dog i particularly need to get weight on so would you say lamb or tripe is better?

I plan on making up my own veg mix and freezing if the Berriwood works out.


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## helenthemum

Hi After reading some of this wonderful thread i am considering changing my puppy to raw meat/bone.

A bit nervous, but really think it would be much better for him. He is only 11 weeks old at the moment so going to read up as much info as possible over the next month or so. Only just bought a large bag of JW for him.

I have a wonderful butcher literally 1 mins walk away who has often given me bones for my old dog, he gave one to my puppy yesterday and to see him knawing on it for 2 hours was wonderful. He seemed so happy and it seems natural to feed him on natural food.

How long does preparing the food take? If for example I ordered in bulk. I am going to speak to the butcher after Christmas he is manic at the moment as you can probably imagine. How easy is it to stick to the diet if for example going away for a few days or put the dog into kennels?


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## Goblin

helenthemum said:


> Hi After reading some of this wonderful thread i am considering changing my puppy to raw meat/bone.






> He is only 11 weeks old at the moment so going to read up as much info as possible over the next month or so.


Haven't posted it in this thread as it would simply get lost but you may find the contents of http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/271224-raw-research-checklist.html useful and try to find answers for the checkpoint items.



> I have a wonderful butcher literally 1 mins walk away who has often given me bones for my old dog, he gave one to my puppy yesterday and to see him knawing on it for 2 hours was wonderful. He seemed so happy and it seems natural to feed him on natural food.


You do have to be careful. Butchers often give leg bones from say cattle. These bones are very dense and have been known to break teeth. Many people's dogs have never had a problem, it's just a risk I wouldn't personally take.



> How long does preparing the food take?


A loaded question as it depends on how much you order and what you buy  Normally if I buy a lot of something it's takes a bit of time portioning it into individual meals which go in the freezer. This is the time sink and can take 5 mins or a couple of hours depending on how much there is. To start with I would weigh things out but now I go by eye. Each day it's take portion(s) out , leave to defrost (possibly overnight), throw to dog. The actual giving it to the dog is a couple of minutes. I always stick around while the dogs are eating. Having had a dog choke on kibble before I never leave dogs unattended while eating. As a result time can once again vary not just according to what is being fed but also according to the dog and their experience with the "cut" of meat.



> How easy is it to stick to the diet if for example going away for a few days or put the dog into kennels?


I think most people revert to some type of "high quality" commercial food although if kennelling at may be worth checking what they can do.


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## helenthemum

Thank you Goblin for your reply.

The butcher gave my pup a rib, very little meat on it but he thoroughly enjoyed trying to knaw off what he could. He didn't manage to break the bone to get to the marrow inside, we have bought him a medium puppy stag bar for Christmas.

I have decided after reading your check list that I am going to start to replace 1 or 2 meals a week with raw meat until I can check with my butcher he can supply everything and find suppliers for everything else.

According to the thread chicken seems to be the best meat to start with, is tesco frozen ( defrosted) chicken thighs ok?


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## chazzie10

helenthemum said:


> Thank you Goblin for your reply.
> 
> The butcher gave my pup a rib, very little meat on it but he thoroughly enjoyed trying to knaw off what he could. He didn't manage to break the bone to get to the marrow inside, we have bought him a medium puppy stag bar for Christmas.
> 
> I have decided after reading your check list that I am going to start to replace 1 or 2 meals a week with raw meat until I can check with my butcher he can supply everything and find suppliers for everything else.
> 
> According to the thread chicken seems to be the best meat to start with,* is tesco frozen ( defrosted) chicken thighs ok?*


I get the chicken from tesco thats on offer at the minute....3 whole chickens for £10. Each bird (1.3-1.6kg) does my Lab about 4 meals


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## hellaho88

Can someone give me some help, I am switching my cats & dogs to a raw diet in January, I was going to order from a supplier (Fife Animal Feeds) I planned on buying the pre-made packs of mince which already contain the 10% bone & 10% offal, but I read the offal can give them diahorrea and should be gradually added in very small quantities, does this mean I should just buy meat from the supermarket until they get used to meat before buying the packs of pre-made mince?


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## DirtyGertie

hellaho88 said:


> Can someone give me some help, I am switching my cats & dogs to a raw diet in January, I was going to order from a supplier (Fife Animal Feeds) I planned on buying the pre-made packs of mince which already contain the 10% bone & 10% offal, but I read the offal can give them diahorrea and should be gradually added in very small quantities, does this mean I should just buy meat from the supermarket until they get used to meat before buying the packs of pre-made mince?


I started Poppy off on DAF minces (which are the ones you mention) and the amount of offal in them didn't cause a problem. After speaking with Lee from DAF to try to ascertain the actual percentage of liver, he advised that it varies with each carcass and can be anywhere between 2% and 5%. You should be fine with the minces. Because I also feed meat chunks and RMBs, and the minces only amount to no more than 50% of her diet, I also add extra offal and that is when you need to take it slow. It should be the last thing introduced and then, as you mention, just a small piece and gradually increase.

Good luck with your cats, my 10 year old cat would only eat the lamb mince and nothing else. Unfortunately I don't have the room to store just one variety for her and all the variety I need for Poppy.


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## hellaho88

DirtyGertie said:


> I started Poppy off on DAF minces (which are the ones you mention) and the amount of offal in them didn't cause a problem. After speaking with Lee from DAF to try to ascertain the actual percentage of liver, he advised that it varies with each carcass and can be anywhere between 2% and 5%. You should be fine with the minces. Because I also feed meat chunks and RMBs, and the minces only amount to no more than 50% of her diet, I also add extra offal and that is when you need to take it slow. It should be the last thing introduced and then, as you mention, just a small piece and gradually increase.
> 
> Good luck with your cats, my 10 year old cat would only eat the lamb mince and nothing else. Unfortunately I don't have the room to store just one variety for her and all the variety I need for Poppy.


Great thanks for your reply!

I have 5 cats (3 girls, 2 boys) & the boys tend to get diarrhea even on prescription food from the vet so hopefully this could be the cure! I tried them for one meal a couple of weeks ago using chicken pieces from the supermarket & shock the girls loved it & the boys were the ones to refuse it! So they'll definitely take some persuading!

Also, is it alright to feed mince for every meal or is that bad for their teeth? Being vegetarian the idea of raw meaty bones freaks me out!


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## Freya'n'Sassy

Mince is no good for your dogs teeth. If you want them to stay clean and healthy then you need meat on the bone. Mince also harbours lots more bacteria than a joint of meat. Mine rarely get mince.

I don't like meat myself, however I have been feeding a raw meaty bone diet to my dogs for 5 years, and I would never change what I feed them as I have seen the health benefits.... And we haven't seen a vet since they changed to a raw meaty bone diet. Just hold your breath, put on some rubber gloves, and tell yourself how healthy your carnivore is going to be by eating meat on the bone while you are preparing it!


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## SLB

hellaho88 said:


> Also, is it alright to feed mince for every meal or is that bad for their teeth? Being vegetarian the idea of raw meaty bones freaks me out!





Freya'n'Sassy said:


> Mince is no good for your dogs teeth. If you want them to stay clean and healthy then you need meat on the bone. Mince also harbours lots more bacteria than a joint of meat. Mine rarely get mince.


There is more to your dog than just it's teeth.

Mince is food and quite often it is very convenient - and basic so for all newbies I would suggest minces and chicken wings until the dogs are used to it and the person is confident in what they are doing. All raw meats harbour bacteria - dogs can still handle it. And when frozen the bacteria either dies or lays dormant - then when eaten the acid in their stomach kills it..

I started out on all minces, chicken wings for breakfast and RMB's 3 times a week, with tripe once a week. I now feed more chunks of food and more carcasses etc. The only mince they get is minced liver and minced Tripe - purely because they reak and I can feed them frozen.


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## laurahair

SLB said:


> *There is more to your dog than just it's teeth.
> 
> Mince is food and quite often it is very convenient - and basic so for all newbies I would suggest minces and chicken wings until the dogs are used to it and the person is confident in what they are doing.* All raw meats harbour bacteria - dogs can still handle it. And when frozen the bacteria either dies or lays dormant - then when eaten the acid in their stomach kills it..
> 
> I started out on all minces, chicken wings for breakfast and RMB's 3 times a week, with tripe once a week. I now feed more chunks of food and more carcasses etc. The only mince they get is minced liver and minced Tripe - purely because they reak and I can feed them frozen.


Thank-you for this post. I am starting out with minces, some chicken necks and wings and a little tripe mince and plan to do so for at least the first month or so. Surely doing this is much better than even the best dry or wet food?


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## 2dogs

my dog gets natural instinct a few times a week, its minced turkey/duck/tripe/chicken or lamb, with bone, veg fruit and oils, nothing sinister lurking in there. Bone isnt just for teeth


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## hellaho88

Does anyone have any suggestions for which raw meaty bones I should buy to start off with (for cats & dogs) Are chicken wings not too small to feed dogs? I thought they'd try to swallow it whole or just crunch it once?


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## Dogless

hellaho88 said:


> Does anyone have any suggestions for which raw meaty bones I should buy to start off with (for cats & dogs) Are chicken wings not too small to feed dogs? I thought they'd try to swallow it whole or just crunch it once?


Depends on the size of the dog; my puppy is on chicken carcasses as he has to chew them properly and does fine - he tended to swallow chicken wings whole unless I held them so he was forced to chew them. He also needed quite a few to make up a meal. I'd avoid thighs etc until the dog's digestive system is used to dealing with bone.

I have no idea about cats though.


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## SLB

Chicken wings are fine for any size dog - obviously if you have a small breed - they'd only need about 1 per meal, if you have a bigger breed you'll need more than 1. 

If you're worried about the dog not being able to eat it well, you can hold the end and keep hold of it and teach the dog to eat it properly.


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## Ruffers

hellaho88 said:


> Does anyone have any suggestions for which raw meaty bones I should buy to start off with (for cats & dogs) Are chicken wings not too small to feed dogs? I thought they'd try to swallow it whole or just crunch it once?


My cat will only eat the very tip of the chicken wing, about an inch long. I chop the end off with scissors and then Rufflea has the rest


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## Goblin

We avoided chicken wings as too small for all of ours, instead preferring chicken backs or chicken quarters. An alternative is to simply buy a whole chicken and cut it up into appropriate sized pieces. Kitchen shears can help with this.


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## helenthemum

Do you need to take the skin of the chicken? I fed my puppy a chicken wing yesterday with the skin on. I held on to it for as long as I could, but he still seemed to just try an swallow it whole. He seemed to have trouble chewing the skin, I did hear the bones crack a few times.


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## DirtyGertie

helenthemum said:


> Do you need to take the skin of the chicken? I fed my puppy a chicken wing yesterday with the skin on. I held on to it for as long as I could, but he still seemed to just try an swallow it whole. He seemed to have trouble chewing the skin, I did hear the bones crack a few times.


No, leave the skin on (although if a dog needs to lose weight it helps to take the skin off then). Chewing the skin, pulling it through their teeth, all helps clean the teeth I think. I still hold Poppy's chicken wings now (almost two years after starting raw feeding) because she would just take one crunch and swallow the lot. At least holding it she gets to crunch up (good for teeth) and it lasts longer . She's much better with other boney meals though, e.g. lamb or pork ribs, trotters, portions of whole rabbit - she takes those more slowly.


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## Goblin

As with most things in regards to raw feeding it's a case of know your dog. Removing the skin is often done if a dog doesn't want to eat as it exposes the meat. The other, more common reason to remove skin is that it can cause loose poop with a dog just starting raw. As time goes on more skin is left on.

In regards to trouble chewing, Daisy had trouble with turkey necks at one point. To help I simply sliced through the sinews she was having problems with a few times. Whilst not stopping the need to chew it did make it easier. Not sure if you could do similar. As time goes on again you may find you no longer need to do it


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## helenthemum

I think its more a case of he couldn't eat it quick enough, he loved the chicken wing. As I still have most of a bag of JW puppy kibble I am just giving him the odd chicken wing at the moment instead of a meal. He really enjoyed it.


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## cainsian

Sorry if this information is on here somewhere but only read up to about page 10!
We have a large breed 19 week pup(french/italian mastiif cross) so expect him to grow in excess of 50kg. Having read up on lots of info about keeping his growth steady, would the 80-10-10 ratio still apply? He is fed 3 times a day, would I need to reduce to twice?
He is currently fed arden grange large puppy, however he is like a hoover and will eat anything(soil being a favourite) fortunately he seems to have a fairly strong stomach! He has tried raw chicken quarters and ribs and had no problem demolishing both- I wanted to test raw before I started seriously looking into it- think he liked it:001_smile:
Think I have a long evening ahead working my way through some of the posts on here to see if I can get any more questions answered!


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## Old Shep

The title of this thread is very misleading. It is very clearly not everything you need to know as it is shamelessley pro-raw feeding

http://www.ed.ac.uk/polopoly_fs/1.88417!/fileManager/Bones and Raw Food Diet.pdf

From The Royal (Dick) Vet School in Edinburgh.

Hardly a ringing endorsement of raw feeding, is it?


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## Goblin

Old Shep said:


> The title of this thread is very misleading. It is very clearly not everything you need to know as it is shamelessley pro-raw feeding


Oh look the same arguments rolling out again which have been discussed in this thread before... 



> A nutritional study of the BARF diet published in 2001 showed the diet to be deficient in calcium, phosphorus, potassium, and zinc, and excessively high in vitamin D.


Well that's no surprise. The study was performed by at least one person responsible for the AAFCO nutrient profile which was sponsored by a major pet food manufacturer. Here one vet's opinion on this.. Does Raw Pet Food Warrant a Unique Set of Nutrient Requirements



> It's natural, but is it safe? Several studies have looked at bacterial contamination of raw foods and shedding of bacterial in the faeces of dogs fed raw foods, and have shown that 20-35% of raw poultry test and 80% of raw food diets for dogs tested positive for Salmonella and 30% of stool samples from these dogs were positive for Salmonella.


So.. things like raw poultry has salmonella. No shock there, everyone who prepares meat for human consumption knows that. Shedding Salmonella.. well it's also been shown that dogs fed commercial food also shed salmonella. Which of the two, commercial or raw, has been directly linked to humans by the Center of Disease Control (CDC) rather than saying "there is a risk"... oh, it's commercial food. Most people I know do not handle poop without washing their hands.

Another useful link Salmonella and the Raw Diet

I've known one person who swears by raw feeding who is immunocompromised. She cooks raw meat for herself as well. 

Parasites... yes parasites exist which is why freezing is generally used to control them. Different parasites need different temperatures and time at that temperature. I do agree however with one part of the link in regards to raw feeding.


> Remember to de-worm your dog regularly





> Some advocates of feeding raw meat and bones diets claim that the bones are beneficial for oral and dental health. Studies in wild dogs, found that 41% had evidence of periodontitis, although only 2% had dental tartar, so while the teeth may appear cleaner, the gums are not necessarily healthier.


Sure beats 80% of dogs have dental problems by the time they are 3 years old. I'll trust a dental expert responsible for carnivorous animals in zoos... http://www.colyerinstitute.org/pdf/diet.pdf



> Are raw bones safe? ... Analysis of the BARF diet has not confirmed that feeding bones is an adequate source of calcium.


Wait.. isn't the argument normally that raw feeding hasn't been *proven to be* better? Here we get the same sort of people insisting on proof to simply accept what they say.



> One of the major risks is that of bones becoming stuck in the oesophagus, stomach or intestines. There is a conception that feeding raw bones is safer than feeding cooked bones. Wile I know of no studies on this, it does seem more of the bones that I have removed from dogs' oesophagi have been cooked, there have certainly been raw ones as
> well.


How many dogs have choked on kibble? One of ours have. Nobody says there is no risk but the risk is overstated. How many of these "raw bones" were from raw feeders? How many were leg bones from large herbivores? Go to a butcher ask for bones and you are most likely to get unsuitable bones. How many blockages are caused by rawhide, nylabone or even cooked ham bone treats openly sold in pet stores (recent sad thread) and yet no vet raises issue with them?



> Hardly a ringing endorsement of raw feeding, is it?


Hardly a quality piece either. Simply a one sided repetition of what's frequently discussed.

Would they like to discuss the LippertSapy report which stated dogs fed a homemade diet lives on average 3 years longer than those fed commercial food?

How about they discuss the study by Dr. Kollath from Stockholm who ran a study on animal nutrition, comparing cooked & processed foods to raw food. The results cite the animals fed the processed diet initially appeared healthy as young animals, yet quickly developed chronic degenerative disease symptoms and appeared to age at a much faster rate than the raw fed control group. The control group of animals raised on raw food were free of degenerative disease and aged less quickly.

Personally I haven't managed to get hold of that last report but would like to so if anyone has a copy of it, please let me know.

Final notes


> tell your veterinary surgeon what diet you are feeding


Due to unbalanced information like the one being referred, many vets, if told a dog is raw fed simply blame the raw diet instead of actually trying to find the source of any problem. Frequently this source has nothing to do with raw feeding. Now if vets approached raw feeding with an open mind and weren't so quick to judge...

Also note more and more vets are convinced raw feeding is of benefit contrary to the official vet associations policy lines.


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## Old Shep

You clearly have not read your own links as the ones I read (the more credible and less rogue, individual ones) do not support your view.

post the link for Dr Kollath's paper (I'm assumming it's peer reviewed and published?) and I'll read that


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## Goblin

Old Shep said:


> You clearly have not read your own links as the ones I read (the more credible and less rogue, individual ones) do not support your view.


The fact your link is written by one vet which tows the "official line" I suppose makes it correct and non rogue, whereas another vets opinion is rogue as they do not agree.

Let's have a look at some of the text:


> One popular study that most recently tackled this issue is a paper by Joffe assessing the risk of salmonella infection in dogs fed a BARF (Bones And Raw Food) diet. He proposes that dogs fed a raw meat diet are a "public health concern". Looking objectively at his methods and results fail to prove this to be the case.


Let's look at teeth..


> Much is known about the relationship between dental plaque, nutrition, diet, and oral pathology. What is well known but not well accepted is that:
> 1. The consistency or texture of food has an affect upon the composition and the rate of dental plaque formation.
> 2. Soft diets tend to produce more bacterial plaque than firm diets
> 3. Excessively course, granular diets can produce periodontal disease through overuse and by direct injury of the supporting tissues.
> 4. Foods of firm consistency will increase the number, distribution, and tone of the capillaries in the gingival tissue; which in turn, improves the metabolism and vitality of all of the supporting and surrounding structures.
> 5. The degree of keratinization of the stratified squamous epithelium which affords protection against trauma and other injurious agents is affected by the frictional qualities of the diet.
> 6. Chewing, by its mechanical action produces a compression and expansion of the periodontal ligament space around the teeth which, in turn, promotes formation of a dense fibrous suspensory structure by increasing both circulation and fibroblastic activity.
> 7. The width of the periodontal ligament, a measure of its health, is directly related to the intensity of the mastication function.
> 8. Regarding the maintenance of the alveolar bone itself, the proper balance between bone resorption and new bone formation is materially aided by hard foods and that inadequate masticatory function induced by soft foods will produce atrophic changes and lower the threshold
> of bone activity.
> 9. And, finally, although there is poor evidence that oral pathology can be initiated by diet consistency and/or texture alone, texture is a major secondary contributor or modifier of the disease process.





> What I am proposing, is that from my perspective of 10 years of investigative analysis and treatment of oral pathology in a wide variety of exotic animals, I see a direct relationship between the texture of the diet, oral problems, and systemic health. I also see a cause and effect relationship which is a relatively easily controllable factor in the maintenance of our animals.





> I have repeatedly treated severe oral pathology in association with arthritic problems, acute renal failure, pancreatic, and hepatic infections, etc





> Convenient prepared diets, those without sufficient "hassle factor," are ruining the mouths and compromising the health of our animals.





> Carnivores, in their natural habitat, eat rabbits, mice, rodents, birds, etc., in toto: i.e., toenails, eyeballs, and intestines. This is the diet we must reproduce, not predigested TV dinners.


Of course referencing work by Tom Lonsdale is pointless as you will not accept his views as he's "pro-raw".



> post the link for Dr Kollath's paper (I'm assumming it's peer reviewed and published?) and I'll read that


Obviously you haven't read my post as I said I do not have that paper or maybe you are asking for other reasons. Dr Kollath's paper (believe in the 1940's) is also used in terms of human nutrition. As someone who says they are trained as a microbiologist you probably have access to better sources than I have.

Even without the paper, you'll notice I'm not adding details, only asking why it's not brought up in the discussion. Then again fear mongering is the main anti raw discussion point isn't it? Most of the so called peer reviewed science is like the "scientific study" where two groups of dogs were fed different amounts of the same food. The overfed group died earlier which proves the food "lengthens lifespan". Only parts are taken for "marketing". For interest though, as far as I can make out, the Kollath paper seems that point to a "missing component" lost during processing, probably enzymes which don't show up on nutritional profiles.


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## Old Shep

> The fact your link is written by one vet which tows


again, you either didn't read it, or didn't read it with care and thought.

It was not written from the perspective of "one vet". It is the advice given by the vet school nutrition dept.

Just because you chose to "believe" that feeding a raw diet to dogs-when this is not supported by the science-does not make it so.

Of course, your haste to dismiss anything which contradicts this belief as a conspiracy by the pet food industry does nothing for the credibility of your argument.

Raw feeding as a fashion. A trend. A bandwaggon.

Personally, I don't think that in the scheme of things it does dogs much harm, but then I don't believe it cures cancer, makes the blind see or the deaf hear either.


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## Goblin

Old Shep said:


> It was not written from the perspective of "one vet". It is the advice given by the vet school nutrition dept.


Only attributed to M.L. Chandler, DVM, MS, MACVSc, DACVN, DACVIM, DECVIM-CA, MRCVS
Senior Lecturer in Small Animal Internal Medicine and Clinical Nutrition. That's one person.



> Just because you chose to "believe" that feeding a raw diet to dogs-when this is not supported by the science-does not make it so.


So let's look at the 2001 study again..


> A nutritional study of the BARF diet published in 2001 showed the diet to be deficient in calcium, phosphorus, potassium, and zinc


In response a vet argues:


> Currently AAFCO's requirement for zinc, for example, is based on the low bio-availability of zinc in kibble due to the phytates in kibble binding the zinc and making zinc unavailable to the dog. With meat-based raw food, there are no phytates so this is not an issue. Zinc also interacts with calcium. Less zinc is needed in a diet which is lower in calcium, more zinc is needed in a diet high in calcium. If one uses NRC requirements, a 33 pound dog would require 52.5 mg zinc for 3500 kcal ME, but AAFCO requires 120 mg for the same dog. That's understandable if most of the zinc is not bioavailable, but is that wise if the zinc is easily bioavailable as in a raw diet?


This references information from:

Institute of Medicine, Food and Nutrition Board. Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin A, Vitamin K, Arsenic, Boron, Chromium, Copper, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Silicon, Vanadium and ZInc. Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 2001.
National Research Council, "Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats", The National Academies Press, November 2006.

So science is arguing against the initial points raised.

I've yet to see science show commercial foods are better and extend the life of dogs. We've had science show low protein diets should be used for dogs suffering kidney damage only to have science later show the opposite (original taken as applicable when rat based but some vets still use the old theory). We've got commercial companies quote "supporting science" to discredit research into the way dogs process carbohydrates and diabetes only to find out this "supporting science" is based on diabetic humans, not dogs. We don't see statistical data which shows commercial food is better, only the opposite...



> Of course, your haste to dismiss anything which contradicts this belief as a conspiracy by the pet food industry does nothing for the credibility of your argument.


Again, I'm not dismissive although I could say the same to you. I recognize risks and investigate to inform myself. I also check other sources, not just raw feeding sites. I've not finished researching. You'll notice I answered your initial post whilst being familiar with the studies hinted at or at least similar ones. How... I've looked them up as part of my research. Unlike those who simply push the "dangers" I've actually tried to ask people's experiences looking for both positives and negatives to try to quantify risk.

One of the major arguments the anti raw brigade have is "no scientific evidence", it's all anecdotal evidence. Where is the study which shows commercial feeding is better than raw and extends the lifespan of dogs? If science can prove it, why not fund a study? Where's any statistics comparing the two by commercial companies? There aren't any that I have found. Instead we get studies which are dubious at best targeting people's fears but not hitting the main question. Are commercial foods better in the long term? Again CDC states there's a potential zoonotic risk with raw feeding but have directly linked commercial dog food with salmonella in humans. You'll notice it's only the raw feeding potential risk which is normally pushed.



> Personally, I don't think that in the scheme of things it does dogs much harm, but then I don't believe it cures cancer, makes the blind see or the deaf hear either.


Neither do I believe it does the impossible and I haven't seen anyone say it cures cancer or makes the blind see or deaf hear (wish it did for Benny's sake but as we've removed his eyes it would be even more of a miracle). For cancer though there is evidence that A low carbohydrate, high protein diet slows tumor growth and prevents cancer initiation. (it should be noted that this is in mice, not dogs).

I've mentioned the study Epidemiologic study of relationships between consumption of commercial canned food and risk of hyperthyroidism in cats before in another thread which came up with the following results..


> Age-specific hospital prevalence of feline hyperthyroidism increased significantly from 1978 to 1997. Overall, consumption of pop-top canned (vs dry) food at various times throughout life and each additional year of age were associated with greater risk of developing hyperthyroidism. In female cats, increased risk was associated with consumption of food packaged in pop-top cans or in combinations of pop-top and non-pop-top cans. In male cats, increased risk was associated with consumption of food packaged in pop-top cans and age.


This is for cats but how many of this sort of study do commercial companies fund and I wonder how publicized are they? Are you so sure that commercial foods are better and there are no risks involved?

I do believe raw is the best diet for dogs, despite potential risks. You'll notice very few threads recommend raw without people researching it first. This doesn't simply include the positives but also the potential risks and arguments against it. If someone wants to feed commercial I will not try to persuade them not to although I will point them to look at the ingredient list. Although not "science", I've seen the effects on our own dogs. I will continue to try to help people who wish to feed raw based on what I have learned, both through experience and my own research.

Edit: corrections.


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## Gick

As a newbie to the forum I have been trawling through various threads for snippets of information to improve my dog caring. I have found this thread interesting in parts (No, I must admit I have not read every post - life is too short) and I have no wish to 'rattle anyone's cage', but I have read some criticism of using minced raw meat, so I would like to share my own experience.

My lovely Meg, a small border collie died aged 15 years 2 months. Up to three weeks before her untimely death due to Kidney failure brought on by prescription Nsaid for her arthritis (that's another story), she enjoyed long walks every day, on average we covered 100 miles per week. She lived on raw meat and bone, her favourite being pork spare ribs some of which she had each day. She also enjoyed the neck vertebrae, scapulars and breast bone of pigs. She wasn't so keen on lamb. Of course she needed a little help in her later years so the larger pieces were semi crushed to help her get her jaws around them. Now here comes the controversial bit, She also enjoyed cooked turkey drumstick and wing bones! 

Yes I know that they splinter, but she dealt with them by chewing the soft knuckle ends then cracking the shaft and licking out the marrow, leaving the hard pieces behind. I took the precaution of supervising this whilst cooking my own meals and noted that she deposited on the floor, even the smallest of fragments. I am not suggesting that all dogs should eat this, but it could be that the BC breed with their well documented intelligence can be fed this way as my new little girl Nala, who came to me from Many Tears Rescue Centre in LLanelli, has now been weaned onto raw meat and bone, displaying exactly the same ability to deal with them, the only difference being that she holds the drumstick between crossed paws and chews down to the shaft then discards it until I have cracked it with a hammer for her to access the marrow.

My local butcher course minces the offcuts from their joint trimming, including chicken carcasses then deep freezes them in 2lb packs (proper family butcher). This ensures that any worm eggs or bacteria is killed off, rendering it safe for raw feeding. One of the criticisms of mince is that little mastication is required so the stomach is not prepared to digest it's contents and that the food can be eaten too quickly. If that is so then tinned food must been even worse! I have the blocks chopped into 1/2lb pieces. The mince can be fed frozen requiring the dog to gnaw it off in a similar way to a meaty bone. I personally thaw out a unit and roll meat balls to cause Nala to smaller amounts at a time, also on alternate days include a tablespoon of Rape Seed oil for the Omega 3 and 6. By putting two or three vertebrae in the bowl her teeth are cleaned and mastication takes place. 

This is for breakfast and at night she has all meaty bone plus the trimmings of whatever I am cooking for myself, whether it be fish or meat. She is having an occasional spare rib as a treat as she has shown no preference to that over other meat. 

Nala is 15.7 kilos so is slightly well padded for her size; despite being very active, I aim at 2.5% body weight ie., 390 grams per day, so feed about 250 grams of mince plus a bowl of bone per day.

The costs are 77p per kilo quality mince, 55p per kilo meaty bones, so on average her feed is 40p per day. If we are lucky, she will require the same vet attention as Meg, or lack of,whose only cost above normal annual health check and vaccination, flea and worming, was something for her nocturnal enuresis which is common in the elderly bitch, associated with being neutered.

I repeat that this is only based on my experience with Border Collies which is both a hardy breed and highly intelligent and I would not criticize any owner using a different feeding regime, but would urge them to at least try raw meat and bone.:thumbup:


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## 2dogs

thats great value!!
I had to stop buying pet mince from butcher as I think it was too fatty, for what he said was in it, it was mighty pale in colour suggesting alot of fat...however I feet alot or natural instinct which is costly, but i have limited places to buy meat for the dog cheaply
I feed chicken carcass also, heart, liver and kidney, and iceland value chicken portions


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## Misi

Old Shep said:


> again, you either didn't read it, or didn't read it with care and thought.
> 
> It was not written from the perspective of "one vet". It is the advice given by the vet school nutrition dept.


Who are "trained" by the likes of Hill's...



Old Shep said:


> Just because you chose to "believe" that feeding a raw diet to dogs-when this is not supported by the science-does not make it so.


Where's the science in feeding a carnivore cereals that have been processed to death and meat that has unclear origins that has also been processed to within an inch of its life? Is this diet good for humans? No, and we're omnivores, so how can it be good for any other living organism, let alone a carnivore?



Old Shep said:


> Of course, your haste to dismiss anything which contradicts this belief as a conspiracy by the pet food industry does nothing for the credibility of your argument.


Since I started researching a raw diet for my pets in 2008, time after time I've seen myths perpetuated by commercial producers of food, such as one by Iams saying that tinned food for cats was rubbish because it was 70% water and so you're better off feeding kibble. The fact that a cat's natural raw diet is appprox 70% water didn't seem to matter and that as a desert animal, eating a dry diet could be catastrophic for the kidneys, since cats naturally don't drink much. What about all the recalls? Hill's, supposedly the TOP in pet food adding melamine to "up" the protein content of their already crappy food? I could go on... That is no conspiracy, that is fact.



Old Shep said:


> Raw feeding as a fashion. A trend. A bandwaggon.


How can a diet that's been eaten for over a million years be a fashion?? . There is evidence that dogs and humans have been co-habiting for nigh-on 30,000 years. What do you think dogs ate in all that time? Hill's? Royal Canin? Winalot??? It's only in the last 50-odd years that commercial diets have even been available!



Old Shep said:


> Personally, I don't think that in the scheme of things it does dogs much harm, but then I don't believe it cures cancer, makes the blind see or the deaf hear either.


In that case, live and let live. And no-one said that raw-feeding was a cure-all, just a generally all-round healthier way of feeding your cat or dog.

Anyway, I didn't come here to argue the rights and wrongs of raw-feeding, I came here to ask a question which I will now do!


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## Misi

Hey-ho...

We're getting a Samoyed pup in the Spring, yay!! My question is sort of a general one, but I'm asking it here because we'll be raw-feeding him / her. I understand that the simplest way of working out how much to feed is to say 2-3% of the ideal adult weight. I do this with the cats, plus a bit more because they eat it and are still nice and slender 
I read somewhere that at a certain time in a pup's growth cycle, you need to feed a bit more. I can't remember where in the cycle and how much you're supposed to feed. Is it 4-6 months when they're growing their adult teeth or is it 12-18 months? Or both? I've never had a pup before and I want to make sure I'm feeding the correct amounts for his age.


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## Megan345

Misi said:


> How can a diet that's been eaten for over a million years be a fashion?? . There is evidence that dogs and humans have been co-habiting for nigh-on 30,000 years. What do you think dogs ate in all that time? Hill's? Royal Canin? Winalot??? *It's only in the last 50-odd years that commercial diets have even been available!*


This is the bit that gets me. I suppose an argument could be made that dogs and cats are healthier now than they were then, but I haven't seen anyone arguing that or providing any papers to support it... Bearing in mind other factors like jabs would need to be taken into account, too!


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## Misi

Megan345 said:


> This is the bit that gets me. I suppose an argument could be made that dogs and cats are healthier now than they were then, but I haven't seen anyone arguing that or providing any papers to support it... Bearing in mind other factors like jabs would need to be taken into account, too!


It depends how you define healthy. I wouldn't say that they are necessarily healthier if you look at diseases that are now more prevalent as a direct consequence of diet. Diabetes is the main one. I think diseases have changed rather than become fewer, and although it could be argued that pets are living longer, they are more prone to chronic diseases, so not in fact healthier at all.


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## Megan345

Misi said:


> It depends how you define healthy. I wouldn't say that they are necessarily healthier if you look at diseases that are now more prevalent as a direct consequence of diet. Diabetes is the main one. I think diseases have changed rather than become fewer, and although it could be argued that pets are living longer, they are more prone to chronic diseases, so not in fact healthier at all.


I'm all in favour of raw feeding, by the way 

That's what I meant, really. There are so many variables to be accounted for and tracked, and as you say, length of life doesn't necessarily constitute health. Who'd bother doing a study on it, anyway?


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## RachRubyx

I'd like to thank you for this amazing thread and all the information. I was terrifed about giving my dog raw and thought if anything happened i'd never forgive myself. However after reading this thread and talking to breeders especially who feed raw I realise that people especially who dogs are their living like breeders wouldn't risk their dogs. So I started with ribs from the butchers as I heard these are one of the easiest to give and less chance of choking. They where pork but british. I frozen them and gave her 2 ribs together every few days an she loves them. Her stools are better and her coat and teeth improved from just a few weeks. Am going to try lamb neck next as my butchers doesn't stock lamb ribs.


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## 2dogs

lamb necks are very bony so dont give her too much
chicken wings are good to feed....and if you ask your butcher ould he have chicken carcass left after boning fillets these are good too


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## FEJA JUODAS

issues, negatives i have with raw feeding dogs or cats, i am sure others have similar reservations..

the pros:
1. my dogs like and eat fast raw meat or cooked meat or anything warm particularly they see me eating.

copying what they see me eating seems to be a large motivation, as well as the SMELL

I read recently, it is not TASTE that MOTIVATES what dogs eat as much as SMELL, and certainly dry dog food has little smell appeal from evidence if you put meat juice over it the dogs eat it better.

ANTI to that point...
1. watching how my dogs eat they do seem to WOLF down their food, not SAVOURING it as if taste does not seem to matter, so i find giving them what i eat wasteful ! lol !

PRO:
2. meat has much protein and other nutrients easily digested by dogs.

ANTI
2. So has dry dog food or other plant food.

now i come to more antis....

3. it is DANGEROUS if bones get stuck in their stomaches and cause ruptures.

of course cooked meat bones are more dangerous than raw for this, but still, rabbit and small boned birds are very dangerous.

in <the wild> since it is romantic to think of our dogs as wolves etc, as if we too are neandertals, not more developed...many wolves died from such accidents as part of natural selection and population control. i dont think taking part in those risks with pets is a thing i fancy as lotto.

4. it is very MESSY and TIME CONSUMING to prepare a BaLANCED meal based on raw, needs planning etc to get to the levels of nutrients available faster in ready made dog foods by vet nutritienists. fine if one enjoys that part of the prepaparation as activity is the PRO for that

5. Since many dogs and animals live quite happily and healthily without high meat content foods of raw, why try to do things differently ?

6. RAW FOOD contains more bacteria especially if slightly affected in atmosphere in the air etc...back to the DANGER anti and of course in the WILD wolves took their chances, many ate CARRION which is even higher risk and i dont think we are going to say our dogs should copy that to be like wolves hey ???

7. the last point i would like to make is that WOLVES DID NOT EAT MEAT DAILY !!! one hunt in 10 on average was successful...now are we going to also change feeding our dogs to say 1 time per 3 days say ?

Wolves WOLFED down their food, some died from it being from the WEAK SICK ANIMALS they targeted in fact, part of population control and the risks of the wild...are we suggesting our dogs eat SICK DISEASED animals to be like their ancestors ? i think not ! wolves RARELY ate HEALTHY victims !

ok the LAST real point is this...WOLVES ATE PLANTS ! now NOT FASHIONABLE to say this and of course they were carnivores meat eaters ! but! logic tells us that the herbivores they ate being plant eaters were providing plant nutrients to their eaters ! and WOLVES ATE PLANTS !

Wolves Eating Berries! - Neatorama

I cease. the dry food available have about 25 to 30 percent MEAT content from packaging details. higher levels in some are available.

Do we need to KILL OTHER ANIMALS more than necessary for others to live ? is my other issue with raw feed. Athletes perform BETTER on steroids etc concentrations ! that does not make it good to do ! ?

I got fed up with my dog burying raw chicken in my bed and elsewhere in the house that was uneaten, being more AGGRESSIVE to DEFEND her food also if raw, being a bit HYPER even, needing longer to DIGEST it, eating meat that has been left in the ground or my bed a few hours or days is all very WOLF LIKE but NOT something i appreciated.

the WOLF PARC i visited in the ariege France told us that they FED WOLVES DRY DOGFOOD ! helped reduce aggression in the wolves and provided the nutritian they needed, and certainly i thought COST LESS. SAVING THE WOLVES had to involved COST as meat is EXPENSIVE to produce and DESTROYS the PLANET more as cows are VERY big consumers of land and produce much GASES that affect atmosphere not to mention DUNG and pollution to water and land in large quantities needed to supply the ENORMOUS MEAT EATING wishes of humans and dogs if big meat eaters !

I cease. JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT !

p.s. i also , lol, did not like the FART smells so strong of my dogs when digesting raw meat meals ! lol !


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## Goblin

FEJA JUODAS said:


> 1. watching how my dogs eat they do seem to WOLF down their food, not SAVOURING it as if taste does not seem to matter, so i find giving them what i eat wasteful ! lol !


That's correct a carnivore doesn't start digestion in the mouth. The mouth/throat is simply a conveyer mechanism to get food to the stomach to start digestion.



> 2. So has dry dog food or other plant food.


You are ignoring the fact that animal protein is far more useful than plant protein for a dog.



> it is DANGEROUS if bones get stuck in their stomaches and cause ruptures
> 
> in <the wild> since it is romantic to think of our dogs as wolves etc, as if we too are neandertals, not more developed...many wolves died from such accidents as part of natural selection and population control. i dont think taking part in those risks with pets is a thing i fancy as lotto.


I've had a dog choke on kibble before. No one denies there is a risk but in the risk/benefit analysis.... people need to make their own choice. Interesting to note this is one issue which is always raised by those vets sponsored by commercial pet food companies. No statistics are available. I've heard of ham bones etc brought from pet stores killing dogs. No warning is generally issued by the vet establishment....



> it is very MESSY and TIME CONSUMING to prepare a BaLANCED meal based on raw, needs planning etc to get to the levels of nutrients available faster in ready made dog foods by vet nutritienists. fine if one enjoys that part of the prepaparation as activity is the PRO for that


Actually experience by many raw feeders shows it's very easy.



> 5. Since many dogs and animals live quite happily and healthily without high meat content foods of raw, why try to do things differently ?


As it's, in my opinion, giving them a better chance of living happily and healthily. Lippert Sapy 2004 statistical study showed dogs fed a home made diet lived on average 3 years longer than those fed commercial food. Strangely no comparisons have been released by commercial companies other than the ones like feed 2 groups X brand, one "group" far more than the other. When one group, fed less, lives longer it proves you can say "in a study X brand lengthened the lifespan of dogs by Y years".



> RAW FOOD contains more bacteria especially if slightly affected in atmosphere in the air etc...


Why is it again the dry pet food has been linked directly to hospitalization of people in the states? Raw feeding hasn't but of course it's the major risk? Once again risk is there but raw feeders tend to be far more aware of the issues and take appropriate action.



> 7. the last point i would like to make is that WOLVES DID NOT EAT MEAT DAILY !!! one hunt in 10 on average was successful...now are we going to also change feeding our dogs to say 1 time per 3 days say ?


Some people actually do, it's called gorge feeding but should only be done for those whose dogs are trained to it. As most dogs aren't used to this feeding method the stomach does not have the flexibility for this.



> Wolves Eating Berries! - Neatorama


Wow.. you obviously haven't read this thread. There are a couple of main groups on raw feeding. One, prey model feeds vegetables as extra's as "table scraps", the other group BARFers actually include vegetables as part of their main diet. Nobody says dogs cannot gain anything from plants. It's simply not as efficient. You could also of course have a video of someone eating chocolate..



> Do we need to KILL OTHER ANIMALS more than necessary for others to live ?


Ah.. the main reason at a guess. If you are that concerned about the environment don't get a dog. If you do have a dog you owe it to the dog to feed it the best species appropriate food you can. I'll point out I know quite a few vegetarians who actually feed their dog(s) raw.



> I got fed up with my dog burying raw chicken in my bed and elsewhere in the house that was uneaten,


Obviously doing it wrong. Most people feed in crate, outside or on a towel. I do not know anyone who allows dogs to take raw food anywhere.



> being more AGGRESSIVE to DEFEND her food


High value items. Dog itself is no more aggressive and a training matter.



> being a bit HYPER even


Actually raw feeding calms dogs down. No more excess carbohydrates digested as glucose and creating a sugar rush.



> , needing longer to DIGEST it


Actually raw is quicker to digest than commercial food.



> eating meat that has been left in the ground or my bed a few hours or days is all very WOLF LIKE but NOT something i appreciated.


Shouldn't have allowed it then should you 



> the WOLF PARC i visited in the ariege France told us that they FED WOLVES DRY DOGFOOD ! helped reduce aggression in the wolves and provided the nutritian they needed, and certainly i thought COST LESS.


Think the cost less says most. Most zoos etc in europe don't so they obviously disagree.



> meat is EXPENSIVE to produce and DESTROYS the PLANET more as cows are VERY big consumers of land and produce much GASES that affect atmosphere not to mention DUNG and pollution to water and land in large quantities needed to supply the ENORMOUS MEAT EATING wishes of humans and dogs if big meat eaters !


Don't get a dog if you are that bothered. If you have a dog it is your responsibility to feed it a species appropriate diet based on it's biology, not what you wish it to be to ease your mind.

Don't get too hung about dogs=wolves. Most raw feeders look at the biology of a dog for the basis of raw feeding.


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## DirtyGertie

FEJA JUODAS said:


> issues, negatives i have with raw feeding dogs or cats, i am sure others have similar reservations.................
> 
> ...............p.s. i also , lol, did not like the FART smells so strong of my dogs when digesting raw meat meals ! lol !


Goblin has covered it very well but I would just like to add that my raw fed dog very rarely farts, on the very odd occasion that she does it's due to something she's picked up and eaten when out walking, usually off lead on the beach so she's not close enough for me to see what she's got and for me to react quickly enough.

I'd be interested to know how many other raw fed dogs suffer with strong farts.


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## FEJA JUODAS

it is interesting reading responses here...and i am wary of course of curent dog food producers claims to be the BEES KNEES in the latest best food for dogs...it is like how microwaves as new technology were sole at first, saying food cooked from inside outwards when it is pure poppycock as anyone twho takes half cooked stuff out knows feeling where the food is hot is on outside !!

and the tinned dogfood producers for years on tv with crufts winning dogs to help them paid for no doubt to say PEDIGREE CHUM IS THE BEST TOP BREEDERS RECOMMEND IT slogans....sigh...

now we are told WET CANNED DOG FOOD is crap and DRY DOGFOOD is the BEES KNEES and then we get BARF ideas so we all need to realise it is all hit and miss and the dogs dont help as they like chocolate which kills them !

cant rely on the dogs tastes hey for sure !

the comment i liked most was...<<ippert Sapy 2004 statistical study showed dogs fed a home made diet lived on average 3 years longer than those fed commercial food.>>

now that kind of info and study is useful

but i read studies showing veggie dogs lived longer had less cancers also !

difficult to prove as dogs like people can get ill from other causes than what they eat of course

as for the planet, well it is a consideration, and the comment dont own dog is not relevant as people could be included to avoid production of to save the planet...the planet is for all species, it means being reasonable, making compromises and if dogs and humans need to eat differently to ensure the planet is well used for the future then so be it.

i am not saying i wont have a dog if i feed it meat anymore than i dont eat meat....but if possible to not eat so much beef for example then that is a valid goat. and certainly not factory farmed living horrible lives chickens. only free range lambs that have at least 4 months life to enjoy not in prisoner cages. if we cannot respect life to this extent then we are just parasites worse than dog tics i say ! 4 months life for any living creature in reasonable conditions no matter what the dog likes to eat is reasonable ! lol !

I throw raw chicken anything to my dogs now and then still, i tried regularly but i am very disorganised and yes food ended up in my bed etc buried so it was a health risk ! but then i find months old rotting food of mine in the oven sometimes ! some people like me are a health risk in fact i would say.


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## Goblin

FEJA JUODAS said:


> the comment i liked most was...<<ippert Sapy 2004 statistical study showed dogs fed a home made diet lived on average 3 years longer than those fed commercial food.>>


http://www.cavalierhealth.org/images/Lippert_Sapy_Domestic_Dogs_Life_Expectancy.pdf It's an interesting read regardless.



> but i read studies showing veggie dogs lived longer had less cancers also !


One of the things you have to be careful of is bias but I'd be interested if you could link them in. Lippert Sapy is interesting as it's statistical and not created with the idea of prove home made food is better. It's often said that dogs do not need taurine, unlike cats as they are able to manufacture their own. There's been studies which show certain breeds, golden retrievers as an example aren't good at this which can lead to things like heart problems. Taurine in plants I believe is only from seaweed.



> as for the planet, well it is a consideration, and the comment dont own dog is not relevant as people could be included to avoid production of to save the planet...the planet is for all species, it means being reasonable, making compromises and if dogs and humans need to eat differently to ensure the planet is well used for the future then so be it.


Population is the major danger of the planet. Don't see progress or many people shouting about that though. You'll also note that some "animal loving" groups, like PETA think any pet should be banned as keeping them is cruel. I would like to know what will happen to them all although I can guess from their shelters. Same goes for cows/pigs etc. It may well be alternative for "meat" will be found. One of the promising alternatives I've recently heard of is insects. You also have to consider the environmental impact of growing particular plants to be able to get a balanced diet, transport/processing costs. It's not simply a case of taking what is in season.



> i am not saying i wont have a dog if i feed it meat anymore than i dont eat meat....but if possible to not eat so much beef for example then that is a valid goat. and certainly not factory farmed living horrible lives chickens. only free range lambs that have at least 4 months life to enjoy not in prisoner cages.


Many people source from local butchers and take care about the food itself. Factory farmed animals do not contain the same nutrients as those in grass fed animals as one incentive aside from environmental ones. Our local butcher only sources from local farms, not BIO/organic but you can taste the difference compared to supermarket fare. You do not have the transportation costs, economic or environmental. You then have to consider what you are actually feeding. Now I live in Germany. Some of the things I get hold of are also produced for human consumption, normally soups, like turkey necks, chicken backs and pig tails. How often are these sold in the UK for people? I was never aware of these when we lived in the UK. We also obtain green tripe from the butcher although it's not allowed in the shop and we need to pre-order it. Effectively we are using the remains and what is left after "humans" have taken what they want to eat. Isn't this better than wasting it?



> I throw raw chicken anything to my dogs now and then still, i tried regularly but i am very disorganised and yes food ended up in my bed etc buried so it was a health risk ! but then i find months old rotting food of mine in the oven sometimes ! some people like me are a health risk in fact i would say.


No matter what you decide to feed, a dog should never be left alone when eating. As I said I had a dog choke on dry food. If I wasn't nearby...

There are a lot of alternatives for food. What's important is that people do a bit of research, look at the alternatives, look at ingredients not packaging, weigh risks/benefits and make a decision they are happy with. For me, morally I should feed a dog a species appropriate diet, even if that means a bit more work for me, which it doesn't really.

You may also like Isn't everything about raw feeding! within this thread and the answers given.


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## 2dogs

since changing to raw meat and bones, my dog doesnt have gas, before that he was rank and produced mountains of sloppy crap...even when fed the best brand kibble his poo was still soft and unliftable by the end of the day


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## mach2001

I am very interested in the Raw diet I must admit I am unsure about a few things if people don't mind me asking a few silly questions.
I have a Valley Bulldog who should weigh about 75lbs but is a little overweight so looking to help him lose a few pounds.

How do you decide what sort of mix you feed your dog I am looking at getting my food from here and here is the list Tripe | Chicken Mince | Beef Mince | Lamb Mince | Whole Rabbit | Raw Dog Food and the choice is baffling to me??

Are you fairly strict in the percentage of each i.e meat, bone and offal?

and do you just give one meal a day or split into two?

i'm sure there is more but they are what I can think of for the minute.
Thanks for any help in advance


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## DirtyGertie

mach2001 said:


> I am very interested in the Raw diet I must admit I am unsure about a few things if people don't mind me asking a few silly questions.
> I have a Valley Bulldog who should weigh about 75lbs but is a little overweight so looking to help him lose a few pounds.
> 
> How do you decide what sort of mix you feed your dog I am looking at getting my food from here and here is the list Tripe | Chicken Mince | Beef Mince | Lamb Mince | Whole Rabbit | Raw Dog Food and the choice is baffling to me??
> 
> Are you fairly strict in the percentage of each i.e meat, bone and offal?
> 
> and do you just give one meal a day or split into two?
> 
> i'm sure there is more but they are what I can think of for the minute.
> Thanks for any help in advance


Hi Mach

Have you started to read through this thread from the beginning? You wont need to read it all but after a few pages you'll start to get the idea.

I started off with minces and chicken wings but now I feed a lot fewer minces and more meat chunks.

To start with you should use just one protein source, usually chicken, for a couple of weeks. Then gradually add further protein sources one at a time, e.g. lamb. So that would be chicken and lamb for a week. Then a third protein source, e.g. rabbit, so that would be chicken, lamb and rabbit for a week, and so on. By introducing new meats slowly you will be able to identify if any particular one causes your dog any problems. Offal is left to the end and introduced gradually, too much liver can give the squits so just a tiny bit to start with and gradually increase.

I don't know about the food you've linked to. I use DAF minces and they are mainly 80/10/10 meat/bone/offal. Because those proportions can't be guaranteed due to each animal carcass being different then I add extra offal.

I feed my small dog twice a day. She generally has mince or meat chunks or fish for breakfast and two days out of three she has a bone meal for tea - chicken wings, ribs, bone-in rabbit, bone-in lamb breast, chicken necks, etc.

You can try your dog on various meats and give as much variety as you like or your dog likes. My dog gets chicken, lamb, duck, rabbit, tripe, pork, turkey, salmon, mackerel and occasionally tinned sardines. Added offal is liver and kidney. Bones are chicken wings, lamb ribs, pork ribs, bone-in rabbit, lamb breast. I only have one expensive butcher (who can't get much) and the Co-op so my minces and most meat chunks plus salmon chunks come from a DAF supplier. I have sometimes managed to get a duck reduced at the Co-op and had that as a treat for Poppy. Chicken wings I get from Co-op when reduced or on an occasional Asda order as I find them nicer quality then the ones I had delivered from a previous supplier. My grandson goes sea fishing and brings me lots of fresh mackerel which I put in the freezer.

I try to work out the offal to be as close to 10% as I can do it but the bone I just go by poops. If her poops become too hard and she struggles to pass them then I replace a boney meal or two with a meat meal.

Hope that helps.


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## mach2001

I am still ongoing with the research and wondered the company I am looking at do chicken mince with bone would this be good to start with or would it best to start with plain chicken and give him the bone seperatly or within chicken wings?
sorry for the questions just want to make sure I get this right!


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## Goblin

mach2001 said:


> How do you decide what sort of mix you feed your dog I am looking at getting my food from here and here is the list Tripe | Chicken Mince | Beef Mince | Lamb Mince | Whole Rabbit | Raw Dog Food and the choice is baffling to me??


We don't do mixes or minces personally although some people swear by them. One of the main advantages which persuaded us to go raw was the tooth cleaning side of things. You don't get this with minces. The other thing is we like to know what is actually in the food. When we get a chunk of meat or Raw Meaty Bone (RMB), we know what it is, we can see how fatty it is etc. Like most things about raw however, different people have different ideas. Many find minces convenient.



> Are you fairly strict in the percentage of each i.e meat, bone and offal?


Strictest rule we follow is know your dog. Each dog is different. The idea behind the 80/10/10 ratio is it simulates a prey animal. Different animals have different ratios. I'd try to get close to the ratio but if the dog is getting runny stool or whatever I'd add more bone (or when starting with chicken, removing the skin). Important point to remember is that it's balance over time, not each meal.



> and do you just give one meal a day or split into two?


We feed once a day but our dogs are used to it and do not suffer hunger pangs. Others feed twice a day. Personal choice based on knowing your dogs. There is no single golden way to feed raw, although if there is it's likely to be, research pros and cons first, transition slowly, have variety and use the ratio as a guideline.

When looking at questions you may also like to look at http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/271224-raw-research-checklist.html which list some things you should know the answers to.


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## 2dogs

although Id prefer to feed chunks of meat and meat on bone, I do feed Natural Instinct once or twive a week along side other meats, this is ground chicken or duck/turkey/beef/lamb/tripe with bone (some havent, you can check on the website) and also contains pulped veg/fruits with oils.


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## caninedivine

we split in two. Feeding a mix of mainly Natures Menu but occasional Natural Instincts along with a few bones.


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## jaynedogs

Hi. Just started to feed my dog a raw diet, and feel in a bit of a panic:001_unsure: My girl is 19.8 kg, and fairly active 10 year old. Could anyone give me some idea's in weight what ratio meat/bone should be in each meal I am hopeless with % grams I can cope with lol. I am trying really hard not to get flustered. Thanks peeps.


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## Skandi

jaynedogs said:


> Hi. Just started to feed my dog a raw diet, and feel in a bit of a panic:001_unsure: My girl is 19.8 kg, and fairly active 10 year old. Could anyone give me some idea's in weight what ratio meat/bone should be in each meal I am hopeless with % grams I can cope with lol. I am trying really hard not to get flustered. Thanks peeps.


I feed my 20kg girl 500g a day, she's only 1 though so you may find that a little to much, just reduce it if she starts to put on weight, start off with one meat, chicken would be a good start, personaly I feed a non bone meal in the morning and a boney one in the evening, the overal % of bone to meat should be 10% but it doesn't have to balance every meal, so you would on 500g want 50g worth of bone. when you have her used to a couple of different meats, then you need to add 10% offal as well, (livery kidney tripe etc) but go slowly 

I feed more bone than 10% and judge by her poo. if it's to hard, she gets less the next day, to soft.. add some more!


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## jaynedogs

Thank you Skandi. We have started on turkey and chicken this week, and I have added a bit of veg with this. Are chicken livers ok to use? Bought some in tesco yesterday in a small pot only 50p in the freezer section. I have bought them for a later date. I think I will do what you do, one meal meat, and one meal bone. Which of the two meals would you add the liver?


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## loopyforlabs

Been feeding raw for a few days. My black lab and my lab/collie cross have been absolutely fine. On the second day my yellow lab vomited up his breakfast pretty much as soon as it hit his stomach. Then he was fine with his tea and all the following days. Then today he vomited up his breakfast again today. He had eaten the same food previously and been fine with it. However, what I am wondering is whether the fact he is getting it cold from the fridge could be a factor. 

Do other people feed meat straight from fridge or is it best to take it out a few hours before hand to let it get to room temperature? 

Thanks


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## Goblin

loopyforlabs said:


> Do other people feed meat straight from fridge or is it best to take it out a few hours before hand to let it get to room temperature?
> 
> Thanks


Not uncommon for us to feed things half frozen.


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## Skandi

jaynedogs said:


> Thank you Skandi. We have started on turkey and chicken this week, and I have added a bit of veg with this. Are chicken livers ok to use? Bought some in tesco yesterday in a small pot only 50p in the freezer section. I have bought them for a later date. I think I will do what you do, one meal meat, and one meal bone. Which of the two meals would you add the liver?


I would wait a couple of weeks and then add a very small ammount to either meal, make sure they cope with it, some dogs find liver goes straight through them.I would personaly put it with the bone, since liver makes them softer and bone harder, but I doubt it matters really!



loopyforlabs said:


> Do other people feed meat straight from fridge or is it best to take it out a few hours before hand to let it get to room temperature?
> 
> Thanks


Personaly she often gets food half frozen and if I am feeding mince or tripe pertty much fully frozen, I do remember someone in here ending up feeding all their liver frozen as that was the only way the dog would eat it (cute little liver heart shapes!) But if you think it is the cold try it at room temp for a while. Does he eat his breakfast really fast? could just be that he's bolting it down to fast, so it's not sitting right.


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## loopyforlabs

He does tend to eat his food quite quickly. I think I will try breaking up the block of mince more so he can't wolf it down in big chunks to see if that works. I did give him mince again for his dinner but served it at room temperature this time - no sickness. Perhaps his tummy is still just adjusting to the change.


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## Megan345

loopyforlabs said:


> Been feeding raw for a few days. My black lab and my lab/collie cross have been absolutely fine. On the second day my yellow lab vomited up his breakfast pretty much as soon as it hit his stomach. Then he was fine with his tea and all the following days. Then today he vomited up his breakfast again today. He had eaten the same food previously and been fine with it. However, what I am wondering is whether the fact he is getting it cold from the fridge could be a factor.
> 
> Do other people feed meat straight from fridge or is it best to take it out a few hours before hand to let it get to room temperature?
> 
> Thanks


I quite often feed straight from the freezer, with just 30 minutes defrosting time or so to stop it sticking to their tongues 

I did find with Rocky he throws up if he has too much rich food, like beef heart. He eats it again but it's pretty disgusting so I usually put a bit of chicken or mince with it.


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## Megan345

Quick question without having to go through the whole thread again - is it _necessary_to freeze every meat and fish for a few weeks before feeding? Or is it just stuff from abroad? Or just pork and salmon? I've read different things in different places.

Not something I've worried about so far, been ordering frozen minces etc. online, but getting a bit more adventurous recently


----------



## Skandi

Megan345 said:


> Quick question without having to go through the whole thread again - is it _necessary_to freeze every meat and fish for a few weeks before feeding? Or is it just stuff from abroad? Or just pork and salmon? I've read different things in different places.
> 
> Not something I've worried about so far, been ordering frozen minces etc. online, but getting a bit more adventurous recently


As far as I know no, pacific salmon can contain a parasite, and pork could have ringworm, I have not heard anything about anyother product, I have seen parasites on fish, but I don't beleive most of them survive the digestive process.


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## Thaisa

I have fed my rottie a raw meat and bone diet for 4 years, he is 6 now, and my huskey cross who is 5 for the last 3 years.

In January my rottie had projectile diarrohea which when he went to the vets was blamed on him eating the snow. Anti bi's followed and they seemed to work.

3 weeks later it was back, this time he was very lethargic, and vomiting, wasn't eating and lost his taste for the things he loves.

Back to the vet again, this time they gave him a good feel and said the previous infection probably hadn't cleared, again more anti bi's.

Within a week of finishing them, back again, same symptoms as before. Backed to the vet as I thought he may have had a blockage this time, sedated, blood tests and x rays. X ray cleared, no temp and blood test indicated a high level of white blood cells, again just thought to be an infection. More anti bi's. 5 days later this time, with no let up in the real watery poo, we were back, this time me carrying a faecal sample that they didn't request. 5 days later, my dog has been diagnosed with salmonella, blamed on the raw food. Previous anti bi's wouldn't clear it, so now ones to take for 30 days and was given a bag of Hills dry food.
My rottie is not to bad at the moment but now over £1000 in bills to diagnose salmonella, even though my other dog shows no signs. He still turns down some thing he used to like, like a little bit of toast. And although I was told by the vet to stop feeding raw for both of them,I still do. I tried the hills for sensitive stomachs to eliminate vomiting, and he brought it back up. He's gone of some raw food like rabbit and Im not sure he taste will ever return fully. It doesn't put me off raw, but has certainly got me perplexed seeing as he was a perfectly healthy rottie and salmonella in dogs I believe is very rare, would she have come to this conclusion had I not said I fed him on raw?
Forgive any spelling mistakes its been a long day but I'd be very interested for any views or advice on this, am I right to continue feeding raw while he's on anti bi's? Thanks


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## Goblin

Difficult one. Dogs being affected by salmonella in dogs is extremely rare and the only incidences of it that I have heard about come from commercial food, not raw feeding. Be aware all dogs shed salmonella, both raw fed and not although raw fed dogs shed more.

Personally with the antibiotics I wouldn't want to stress the dogs immune system by changing to something other than raw. HOwever antibiotics can kill the the healthy bacteria that line the digestive tract (or florae) so you may want to look at a probiotic to boost those.


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## Thaisa

Thank you for your reply, I really appreciate someone else's view. I do have him on a pro biotic fortiflora? A powder that he really seems to have taken to.

He had one dose of the Hills food they gave me, the anti vomit sensitive one, and 5 hours later brought it back up, so I have kept him on raw.

I know it can be found in most dogs stools, this is what slightly concerns me with the diagnosis, and whether they would have been looking for that had I not said he was on a raw diet. Since I put him on raw food, the improvement has been massive, lovely coat, teeth, stopped biting himself, stopped being over hyper. I cannot fault the raw food, my little huskey thrives on it.

He has improved a good deal after 5 days of these anti bi's he has, no runny watery poo,but I think the previous anti bi's is what has ruined his taste system on some foods he used to love. He lost a great deal of weight with this, he normally has a 22inch neck, but last week his collar slipped over his head while I was walking him.

I loath dry food, when I first had him and he was on that, he was sick every other night, it would not interest me to stop feeding raw, except if it was a dead cert as not right for him.


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## Goblin

One thing you could try is to contact a Tom Lonsdale, a raw veterinarian and ask his advice. He's the author of Work Wonders and lives in Australia. If he replies (sure he gets lots of messages) let us know what he says.


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## Fruball

Hello Everybody 

I have an 11wk old Cavalier puppy who we brought home 2 weeks ago. 

After a week he got very runny poop and it had very small streaks of blood in it  I panicked and went online to see what I could do for him. I put him on cooked fish and scrambled eggs and the problem went away... He was previously on royal canine kibble.

He then had nothing but a small amount of raw egg and cooked white fish for 3 days and then a friend told me about BARF a couple of days ago and after much googling I found this (and many other sites). I am now convinced that raw feeding is the way to go and yesterday he had his first raw meal of a chicken drumstick  He loved it and ate the whole thing 

As he has been having fish, I gave him a raw fish fillet for breakfast which he enjoyed immensely and lunchtime he got another chicken drumstick which he only ate a small amount of - i'm not worried, he is not a big eater anyway. This evening he will get the rest of the drumstick.

He is having 3 meals a day and I wondered if there was any way of preventing him pooping in the night (he very rarely does) by perhaps giving bone meal in evening or feeding him earlier? I know it is early days but I want to discourage pooping at night.

I have read the first 40 pages! and the last 20 pages so I wanted to say thanks to everyone for their contributions which have helped me make the decision to feed raw. The almost full pack of RC kibble remains untouched in the kitchen and I glance at it warily as if it is poison now  I wonder if the ducks at the local pond might like it?! Seems a shame to waste it.

I am going to stick with chicken, turkey (similar to chicken so can I use that too?), fish and small amount of egg for a couple of weeks then introduce something else. A lot of people seem to offer lamb next - is lamb not a bit of a rich meat? I would have thought it would upset his tummy more than say pork? 

I will be glad when the runny poop stops - any idea how long this might be?

Many thanks and I look forward to getting to know you 

(ps - what can I use as treats? The idea of pieces of raw chicken in my pocket turns my stomach and obviously I wouldn't do it due to risk to myself!! would cheese be good?)

(ETA my puppy has been the most placid, quiet and soporific pup I had ever known - always wanting to sleep or be cuddled... We have only been on raw for 48 hours but he is already much more playful and bouncy! Could be a coincidence)


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## AlisonBrook

my dog is four year old? I used to feed him with foods from the store, I mean special dog foods. Having reading lots of consumers' complaints concerning the issue, I decided to change his diet to raw feeding. What is the right way to do it?


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## caninedivine

Fruball said:


> (ps - what can I use as treats? The idea of pieces of raw chicken in my pocket turns my stomach and obviously I wouldn't do it due to risk to myself!! would cheese be good?)


try these nature menu meat treats. they come in a resealable bag and are perfect for the pocket.

Nature Menu Training Treats


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## Megan345

Those of you who feed proper animal bits, as opposed to mince like I have been doing, I have a question about bone.

My two aren't particularly small dogs, but even a pretty small trotter gives them white, hard poo, even when a lump of tripe or heart is given with it. Do you just live with this and feed meat meals for a couple of days after, or would you take the trotter (or whatever) away from them and use it for another meal the next day?

I'm finding it hard to balance the bone so it's right for them, mince seemed to keep it just about right, but it seems quite hard to just put a little bit of bone in their meal without going back to mince. So far, the bony things I've been feeding are trotters, pork shanks and fish heads (not too bad). Any suggestions of other cheap cuts, or any that may be more suitable, welcome


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## pogo

Megan345 said:


> Those of you who feed proper animal bits, as opposed to mince like I have been doing, I have a question about bone.
> 
> My two aren't particularly small dogs, but even a pretty small trotter gives them white, hard poo, even when a lump of tripe or heart is given with it. Do you just live with this and feed meat meals for a couple of days after, or would you take the trotter (or whatever) away from them and use it for another meal the next day?
> 
> I'm finding it hard to balance the bone so it's right for them, mince seemed to keep it just about right, but it seems quite hard to just put a little bit of bone in their meal without going back to mince. So far, the bony things I've been feeding are trotters, pork shanks and fish heads (not too bad). Any suggestions of other cheap cuts, or any that may be more suitable, welcome


for me the boys seems to have a high tolerance for bone, they have never been constipated, i give whole pigs legs not just the trotter and they were fine, trotters i give a lot they eat the whole thing with no poo problems after

have you tried rabbits? rabbit bone is really soft and easily digestible so they could eat whole or part of rabbits perhaps without problem?


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## Megan345

pogo said:


> for me the boys seems to have a high tolerance for bone, they have never been constipated, i give whole pigs legs not just the trotter and they were fine, trotters i give a lot they eat the whole thing with no poo problems after
> 
> have you tried rabbits? rabbit bone is really soft and easily digestible so they could eat whole or part of rabbits perhaps without problem?


I haven't, rabbit has been really expensive wherever I've seen it. Where do you get yours from?

Do they get more 'used' to digesting big lumps of bone?


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## pogo

Megan345 said:


> I haven't, rabbit has been really expensive wherever I've seen it. Where do you get yours from?
> 
> Do they get more 'used' to digesting big lumps of bone?


erm i don't no about getting used to it, but they just never had a problem, but i started with whole foods from the beginning so maybe thats it!

I get mine from a hunter that hutch6 put me in touch with on his other thread


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## Megan345

And another one (sorry) - does anyone feed the lamb bones from Morrisons? There doesn't seem to be a lot of meat on them, is it safe to just let them crunch them up?


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## pogo

Megan345 said:


> And another one (sorry) - does anyone feed the lamb bones from Morrisons? There doesn't seem to be a lot of meat on them, is it safe to just let them crunch them up?


i buy them whenever i see them and they are great to let for them to crunch up, don't last long though


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## Megan345

Thank you. They usually go as soon as the shop opens here but I found them hidden on a shelf so had them away 

I really appreciate your replies btw Pogo, thanks


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## pogo

Megan345 said:


> Thank you. They usually go as soon as the shop opens here but I found them hidden on a shelf so had them away
> 
> I really appreciate your replies btw Pogo, thanks


haha yer they always tend to be hidden

Aww your welcome


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## Thaisa

Hi Goblin

I emailed Tom Lonsdale, and he was kind enough to reply, so I thought I'd post what he says:

Thanks for the message and sorry you've encountered difficulties.

Sight unseen it's not possible to make specific recommendations. Does sound, however, that your dog had some sort of infection. 

Could have been campylobacter or salmonella or giardia or similar. The first two can be caught from raw food.

Each disease has its own specific treatment. Thereafter you need to reestablish normal gut flora. For that I suggest whole rabbits/chickens etc complete with guts. Alternatively try to take your dog for walks in sheep/cow paddocks where he might eat some poo. Alternatively you can get some rabbit/sheep poo and dose him with balls of poo.

If your vet would like to contact me to discuss further please supply my email address.

Shall be interested to know how you get on.

All the best,

Tom


Off to see the butcher for some rabbit at the weekend!


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## princesssaskia

Megan345 said:


> Those of you who feed proper animal bits, as opposed to mince like I have been doing, I have a question about bone.
> 
> My two aren't particularly small dogs, but even a pretty small trotter gives them white, hard poo, even when a lump of tripe or heart is given with it. Do you just live with this and feed meat meals for a couple of days after, or would you take the trotter (or whatever) away from them and use it for another meal the next day?
> 
> I'm finding it hard to balance the bone so it's right for them, mince seemed to keep it just about right, but it seems quite hard to just put a little bit of bone in their meal without going back to mince. So far, the bony things I've been feeding are trotters, pork shanks and fish heads (not too bad). Any suggestions of other cheap cuts, or any that may be more suitable, welcome


Hiya, i've not posted in this forum for a while but I have been feeding RAW for 7yrs now. I think most people on here would agree that its a journey of discovery, dependent on the requirements and taste of the individual dog and availability and price of the ingredients you can source! To address your point specifically. my bull terriers have eaten RAW from day 1, they eat a HUGE range of different things and yet I always find that when they specifically eat pigs trotters their poo is hard and white the next day (interestingly the ridgeback/lurcher X I also own never has this problem!) However, its no big deal - I always say with RAW feeding let your instinct guide you and as you already suggested, yes I just feed a particularly 'meaty' meal for the next 2 meals or so to regain the balance!

I would also agree with pogo that feeding whole carcasses like rabbit, chicken or game birds provides a good balance of meat/bone and also the bones are easier to digest.

Yes I do also feed lamb breast/ribs occasionally, it provides a good work out for the teeth and gums - but generally I tend to stick to whole carcasses as they provide a good balance of meat/bone, plus the guts are full of goodies and the skin/feathers/fur is a good source of fiber!


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## Skandi

Question I think fits here, I've been feeding my larger dog raw for a year now, pretty sure I have her sorted, but have recently started a pug on raw, I thought she was going to have trouble with bones, but no they are fine, however.. she does have trouble with meat, I think it's becasue her back teath are awful, they look like a they were put in with a scatter gun. so she can't cut the meat but has to spike it into submission, just now it took her 30minutes to eat 150g of pork heart. where as Jess ate her 240g in about 30 seconds. 

so is 30mins normal? and would it matter if I cut up her meat for her, but left the bones as they are. wondered if the meat itself will be having any tooth cleaning effects, she has the same issue with chicken thighs, can't get through the skin, I notice she breaks the bones up then after 10-15mins of chewing gives up and swallows the entire lot.


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## princesssaskia

Skandi said:


> Question I think fits here, I've been feeding my larger dog raw for a year now, pretty sure I have her sorted, but have recently started a pug on raw, I thought she was going to have trouble with bones, but no they are fine, however.. she does have trouble with meat, I think it's becasue her back teath are awful, they look like a they were put in with a scatter gun. so she can't cut the meat but has to spike it into submission, just now it took her 30minutes to eat 150g of pork heart. where as Jess ate her 240g in about 30 seconds.
> 
> so is 30mins normal? and would it matter if I cut up her meat for her, but left the bones as they are. wondered if the meat itself will be having any tooth cleaning effects, she has the same issue with chicken thighs, can't get through the skin, I notice she breaks the bones up then after 10-15mins of chewing gives up and swallows the entire lot.


hiya, not had any experience of feeding small dogs, or pugs specifically on raw (though my cat eats this way too) but my instinct would say that so long as your pug is managing to chew up bones ok, then this itself should provide a good work out for mouth and serve to clean the teeth and gums so I wouldnt worry too much about the meat. If it were me, I would cut the meat up most of the time and just leave the bones whole for the pug to chew and then some days (perhaps when you outside in garden with him/her or you leaving her/him alone in the house for a bit) I would give her/him the occasional larger chunk of meat to take her/his time over


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## luvmydogs

I just bought thus, anyone else got it? Amazon.co.uk: Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs: The Definitive Guide to Homemade Meals: Kindle Store


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## Beccahhhh

I haven't read all the 125 pages, so I apologise if this has been asked already, I'm just thinking of starting raw feeding, I have a small jrt (5kg) and a 6 month old mini dachshund who is around 5.5 kg, anyway I was wondering if they will be able to eat chicken drumsticks or would these be too small bones to start with? I will research it more before I start, but any advice would be appreciated


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## Alfshuman

chicken wings are the way forward! nice soft crunchy cartiledge and bones, and about right to be a meal in themselves. I'd try one first of all and check there are no adverse effects. Most dogs love raw but i have heard of one or two dachshunds with sensitive stomachs who love it but there have been problems. also getthe balance right - too many bones will instantly bung them up and end up withem straining to produce poo, as their digestive systems struggle to adjust. like so much else else in life, it is all about moderation and gradual change. you might want to lookinto Natural Instinct, a frozen raw food that can be delivered. Very convenient and a good way to ensure you get that balance right. it is definitely worth having a go - many dogs are happier, healthier and slimmer on raw.


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## Beccahhhh

Alfshuman said:


> chicken wings are the way forward! nice soft crunchy cartiledge and bones, and about right to be a meal in themselves. I'd try one first of all and check there are no adverse effects. Most dogs love raw but i have heard of one or two dachshunds with sensitive stomachs who love it but there have been problems. also getthe balance right - too many bones will instantly bung them up and end up withem straining to produce poo, as their digestive systems struggle to adjust. like so much else else in life, it is all about moderation and gradual change. you might want to lookinto Natural Instinct, a frozen raw food that can be delivered. Very convenient and a good way to ensure you get that balance right. it is definitely worth having a go - many dogs are happier, healthier and slimmer on raw.


I tried it last night and they were fine, my dachshund ate it like he'd been eating them forever, my jrt looked at it for a while trying to figure out why a bone was covered in meat, it was so cute watching them lol, my dachshund was on dry food as wet made him sick he was eating it so fast and it didnt agree with him at all and dry he would still wolf it down, sometimes I don't think he chewed it lol :s I will get some different chicken pieces tomorrow and try them on that  it was amazing watching them eat the bones, I was worried my dachshund might try and eat it too fast but he knew what he was doing lol


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## Tilldob

I have been advised to feed my Bull Terriers Raw starting with Tripe mixed with a little porridge oats.My bitch is 2 and a half and her puppy is 4 months old,i am concerned about salmonella and also my bitch seems to have really itchy feet, could it be related to the raw food ?She was fed Vitalin grain free and pup was on Whites super premium puppy food before. They have been on the raw food since Saturday


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## Hanlou

Beccahhhh said:


> I tried it last night and they were fine, my dachshund ate it like he'd been eating them forever, my jrt looked at it for a while trying to figure out why a bone was covered in meat, it was so cute watching them lol, my dachshund was on dry food as wet made him sick he was eating it so fast and it didnt agree with him at all and dry he would still wolf it down, sometimes I don't think he chewed it lol :s I will get some different chicken pieces tomorrow and try them on that  it was amazing watching them eat the bones, I was worried my dachshund might try and eat it too fast but he knew what he was doing lol


Hi. Teddy is just over 4kg so a similar size to your doglets. 

He's been on chicken wings for a while (only 1 or 2 a week) but I started him on Saturday fully on raw.

I've bought a whole chicken and portioned it up into meals trying to balance up bone / meat etc and he's absolutely loving it! 

I've got some tripe mince, some diced beef and turkey to add into his diet over the next 3 weeks or so. He will be on chicken only until Saturday as I want to take things slowly.


----------



## Beccahhhh

Hanlou said:


> Hi. Teddy is just over 4kg so a similar size to your doglets.
> 
> He's been on chicken wings for a while (only 1 or 2 a week) but I started him on Saturday fully on raw.
> 
> I've bought a whole chicken and portioned it up into meals trying to balance up bone / meat etc and he's absolutely loving it!
> 
> I've got some tripe mince, some diced beef and turkey to add into his diet over the next 3 weeks or so. He will be on chicken only until Saturday as I want to take things slowly.


I have fed them chicken bits for a week, with stuff they'd had before like tinned sardines and raw eggs and veg  I gave them the turkey mince from pets at home too on Sunday  i have got more of the mince things from pets at home and more chicken, as I don't feel confident with any other meats just yet lol


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## princesssaskia

Tilldob said:


> I have been advised to feed my Bull Terriers Raw starting with Tripe mixed with a little porridge oats.My bitch is 2 and a half and her puppy is 4 months old,i am concerned about salmonella and also my bitch seems to have really itchy feet, could it be related to the raw food ?She was fed Vitalin grain free and pup was on Whites super premium puppy food before. They have been on the raw food since Saturday


Hiya, I have many years experience feeding bull terriers and I will say stick with it, its the best thing for them, commercial pet food is the worst thing for them as so many have skin issues which are aggravated by it. RAW will strengthen their immune system and should virtually eliminate itching and sore spots. As many on this thread will acknowledge, there are 2 main debates when it comes to RAW, 1 is to feed whole bone or minced (choking vs clean teeth/gums) and the other is to feed carbs/grains or not. The important thing to understand is that all breeds are different, Carbs are a quick source of glucose and can often be a fab addition to working or high energy dogs diet - however bull terriers really dont need it and in fact many have an intolerance to gluten (oats contain gluten). I would strongly advise cutting out the grain altogether - your dog will obtain sufficient glucose from the protein nd fats you feed him

Tripe is a good thing to feed but to ensure he gets the right fats and adequate calcium you should be feeding carcasses - either whole or minced. As most people do on here, chicken is a great place to start but if you can source it game is great for bull terriers - pheasant, rabbit etc try this site for online ordering Pet Food Prices & Deliveries » Manifold Valley Meats

I also feed lamb and ox heart but generaly try and steer clear of beef as that can also upset some bull terriers. Always try and remember that when feeding RAW quality is everything - finding a good local supplier of free range chicken carcass etc is much better than cheap intensively reared birds - the toxins ingested by these animals during their lives, such as antibiotics and growth promoters, will inevitably filter down to the dog consuming them and (I believe) may impact negatively upon their health. Also streess free free-range or organic birds are far less likely to have salmonella than battery or barn reared birds - same goes for eggs, feed free range organic where possible

get your pup eating wings and necks and a range of things as soon as you can, the earlier they start the better for their health. Your other dog is pretty young too so you should be able to counter any itchiness or health issues she has as her immune system strengthens and her body rebalances as a result of a more nutritional RAW diet fairly quickly.

Personally i feed a small portion of juiced/blended veg each day - mixed through the tripe in the morn - and then just feed whole carcasses in the eve (minced for the pups). I also add supplements like garlic, cider vinegar and flaxseed. sometimes if i feed a dog needs a vitamin/mineral boost I will feed a pet vit/min supplement (i prefer natural organic ones like 'sea greens pet granules' but there are others like pet plus etc)

Finally, again as many people have said on this thread, remember when switching a dog to RAW they can go through a detox period, its their body cleaning out so to speak, this can result in a rough coat, itchiness, runny poo even vomitting, but it should not last long before they adjust - some dont show any of these signs at all - keep going with RAW you will be glad you did! xxx


----------



## TarresaW

Thanks for great posts and very useful information! I want my dog to switch to raw diet as I just can't try commercial food any more.

There are a lot of reasons. 
Pissed Consumer

And you guys are very helpful!!! Thanks!


----------



## Tilldob

Thanks princesssaskia.I started feeding the Tripe on the advise of a trainer the pup is very shy.I think the Tripe,Oats thing is just to get us started on the Raw diet.I must admit i am confused with all the info i have read about feeding raw,and worried about giving bones because of choking,anything tasty is rushed in our house,will i be able to buy ground bones ? also concerned about them not getting the vitamins they need especially the pup.I have bought some frozen Sardines will these be ok for them?


----------



## Tilldob

Forgot to say i am giving them a banana a day and lightly cooked veg,Sweet Potato,Carrot Parsnip and SWede. Should i give a Calcium supplement?


----------



## Goblin

Tilldob said:


> Should i give a Calcium supplement?


For a healthy dog I would avoid supplements. Too much calcium is as bad as too little. When it comes to vitamins etc it's often a balance which is required. Too much of X alters the absorption of Y and things like that. One of the reasons I say if you need supplements for a healthy dog you should really reconsider the core diet.


----------



## luvmydogs

Fish oil is the only thing I add.


----------



## luvmydogs

First introduction to chicken - English Shepherd puppies 17 days old ) - YouTube :drool:


----------



## valpuppy8059

I have been feeding my wolfdog a mix of raw and kibble food (cause just raw meat cause a lot) for the past 6 months. She loves it. My grandparents are the kind of folk who think you should only feed your dogs kibble cause if you feed them raw meat and stuff they will attack, but I myself don't believe in that. I feed mine chicken, pork/pork fat, and sometimes beef. I never thought about adding the bone to her food tho. I hope soon I can have her on a full raw diet cause I just don't feel safe with the kibble. How would you go about asking the butcher for scraps I guess you call it? I just get my meat from pathmark or shoprite stores. Well thanks for reading. :biggrin:


----------



## Dogless

valpuppy8059 said:


> I have been feeding my wolfdog a mix of raw and kibble food (cause just raw meat cause a lot) for the past 6 months. She loves it. My grandparents are the kind of folk who think you should only feed your dogs kibble cause if you feed them raw meat and stuff they will attack, but I myself don't believe in that. I feed mine chicken, pork/pork fat, and sometimes beef. I never thought about adding the bone to her food tho. I hope soon I can have her on a full raw diet cause I just don't feel safe with the kibble. *How would you go about asking the butcher for scraps I guess you call it? I just get my meat from pathmark or shoprite stores. Well thanks for reading.* :biggrin:


I use the butcher for all our 'human' meat too so that I am a good customer and build up a relationship. That way, he's happy to help me. It seems wrong to me to source your meat from a supermarket and then ask the butcher for favours. So, maybe switch where you get your meat from and then just ask whether they have any scraps / do mince / have chicken carcasses etc.


----------



## princesssaskia

Tilldob said:


> Thanks princesssaskia.I started feeding the Tripe on the advise of a trainer the pup is very shy.I think the Tripe,Oats thing is just to get us started on the Raw diet.I must admit i am confused with all the info i have read about feeding raw,and worried about giving bones because of choking,anything tasty is rushed in our house,will i be able to buy ground bones ? also concerned about them not getting the vitamins they need especially the pup.I have bought some frozen Sardines will these be ok for them?


Hiya please dont let all the info confuse you, every experienced RAW feeder takes time to find their own 'way' of feeding but so long as you stick to the main principles of a variety of good quality meat/bone and a little veg and an egg or 2 a week as well as the odd can of sardines then there should be no need to add supplements - as people have already said, adding supplements can often complicated things, if your dogs diet is healthy you dont need to add supplements

Starting with chicken necks or wings is good if you are worried about choking, they are nice soft bones, give them whole but hold onto them as your dog eats them to encourage him to chew - im sure they will quickly prove to you that they can eat them fine without choking (to be honest a rawhide chew toy is as likely, if not more likely to make a dog choke and people give them all the time!) If you are really worried about it then order some MINCED CARCASSES from the manifold vallet meats link i gave you in my post above - these contain meat and bone so you can be sure your dogs are getting all the nutrients they need - this is much better than adding a a calcium supplement

frozen sardines are fine - just bear in mind RAW fish often makes some dogs vomit, its full of nutrients and wont hurt them being sick, most eat it up again after (yuck) but probably best to cook the fish or feed tinned sardines (and not more than 2 or 3 times a week TOPS)

I would really stick to tripe with some veg mixed through it in the mornings (some days add a can of sardines or an egg to this) and then in the evenings just feed either whole bones (like chicken necks/wings or ribs etc) OR MINCED CARCASSES (the best minced carcasses are chicken and game like rabbit, or pheasant)

a bit of banana in your veg mix is ok, but a whole banana each day is probably too much (remember a little goes a long way when it comes to fruit/veg)

xxxxx


----------



## madoutofit

valpuppy8059 said:


> I have been feeding my wolfdog a mix of raw and kibble food (cause just raw meat cause a lot) for the past 6 months. She loves it. My grandparents are the kind of folk who think you should only feed your dogs kibble cause if you feed them raw meat and stuff they will attack, but I myself don't believe in that. I feed mine chicken, pork/pork fat, and sometimes beef. I never thought about adding the bone to her food tho. I hope soon I can have her on a full raw diet cause I just don't feel safe with the kibble. How would you go about asking the butcher for scraps I guess you call it? I just get my meat from pathmark or shoprite stores. Well thanks for reading. :biggrin:


Your dog will not attack if you feed it raw food on the bone. Dogs love to chew raw bones for the yummy taste, the mental stimulation, and also because all that gnawing is great exercise for the muscles of the jaw. In order to understand the nutrition bones provide to pets, it's first necessary to nail down exactly what we're talking about when it comes to bones.

Raw bones contain marrow.

However, marrow isn't bone.It's comprised primarily of fat and blood components, which are high quality nutrients  just not nutrients provided by the bone itself.

There is also cartilage attached to raw bones.Cartilage also isn't bone.It is connective tissue composed of about 50 percent collagen and mucopolysaccharides (chains of glucose molecules combined with mucous). Collagen is fibrous connective tissue that is poorly digested by pets.

So bone is composed primarily of calcium phosphate. Calcium and phosphorus ratios and total amounts in a pet's diet are important. This is especially true for large breed puppies with unique nutritional requirements (0.8 percent calcium and 0.67 percent phosphorus is considered the ideal ratio for these pups).

The ideal total amount of calcium in dog food is 1.0 to 1.8 percent of the dry weight of the food. Many inexpensive, poor quality dog foods contain higher amounts of calcium  sometimes twice the recommended percentage. This is because large quantities of ground bone wind up in meat, poultry and fish meal pet food ingredients. Any pet food with "meat and bone meal" at or near the top of the ingredient list probably has an excessive amount of calcium, which can be detrimental for growing animals.

You may just go to your local butcher and ask if they have any bones. You may have to pay for them, but not much, or they could give you them for free. Your local butcher should have plenty of bones that they would like to get rid of.

Below is a complete guide to putting your dog on a raw food diet. not only is it more natural for your dog, a raw food diet is also the best diet designed to keep your dog healthy and free from illness.

Going Rawr! Raw Food Diet.

You can also sign up for tips and offers and you'll receive a free dog care guide.

Subscribe Here


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## valpuppy8059

Dogless said:


> I use the butcher for all our 'human' meat too so that I am a good customer and build up a relationship. That way, he's happy to help me. It seems wrong to me to source your meat from a supermarket and then ask the butcher for favours. So, maybe switch where you get your meat from and then just ask whether they have any scraps / do mince / have chicken carcasses etc.


Ok, thanks lol. I never knew you could feed a dog chicken bones, my mom always told me not to.


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## Goblin

valpuppy8059 said:


> Ok, thanks lol. I never knew you could feed a dog chicken bones, my mom always told me not to.


I'm going to stress this as your mom and everyone else around needs to be aware..

*RAW bones only*​
Cooked bones are dangerous and should never be given. You don't want someone else to say "but you gave bones" after giving the left overs of a Sunday roast or turkey on thanksgiving.


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## Nicky10

valpuppy8059 said:


> Ok, thanks lol. I never knew you could feed a dog chicken bones, my mom always told me not to.


Raw chicken bones are fine and quite good to start dogs with as it's quite a bland meat and the bones are easy to chew. Cooked bones splinter and can cause intestinal ruptures :001_unsure: never give cooked bones.


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## Rachelb74

Hi,
After reading up quite a lot on barf I decided to go ahead & switch my 10 month old NewfyPoo Leo's diet about 1 month ago.
At the moment I've been feeding him Basil's complete raw meat with added ground bone & veg.
He's loving the food & I've noticed benefits straight the way- less poop & not as smelly.
Less water drinking, a bit calmer & seems very satisfied after eating.
Also everyone has commented how good he looks.

I decided not to add actual raw carcass into his diet, but have been using the pre-made raw food which also has the ground bone in it.

This month I have ordered from Natures Menu- their free flow mince, 
(chicken & lamb) & also ordered the veg nuggets to go with the mince.
I also will be introducing weekly raw knuckle bones into his diet from next week.

Basically as a recent convert to the raw diet I just wanted to check that what I was doing with Leo is ok, & if there's anything else I should be giving him as well as what he's already been having?
For example- does he actually need bones as well as free flow chicken/lamb mince & veg? 

Thanks for taking the time to read


----------



## Nicky10

Rachelb74 said:


> Hi,
> After reading up quite a lot on barf I decided to go ahead & switch my 10 month old NewfyPoo Leo's diet about 1 month ago.
> At the moment I've been feeding him Basil's complete raw meat with added ground bone & veg.
> He's loving the food & I've noticed benefits straight the way- less poop & not as smelly.
> Less water drinking, a bit calmer & seems very satisfied after eating.
> Also everyone has commented how good he looks.
> 
> I decided not to add actual raw carcass into his diet, but have been using the pre-made raw food which also has the ground bone in it.
> 
> This month I have ordered from Natures Menu- their free flow mince,
> (chicken & lamb) & also ordered the veg nuggets to go with the mince.
> I also will be introducing weekly raw knuckle bones into his diet from next week.
> 
> Basically as a recent convert to the raw diet I just wanted to check that what I was doing with Leo is ok, & if there's anything else I should be giving him as well as what he's already been having?
> For example- does he actually need bones as well as free flow chicken/lamb mince & veg?
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to read


I'm not a big fan of minces but I would make sure they're roughly 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% secreting organ. Minces do nothing for their teeth so adding bones is for the best with a dog that size think big chunks with bone in them that he has to work on.

I feed prey model not barf so can't advise on veggies Buster won't touch them anyway.


----------



## Rachelb74

Nicky10 said:


> I'm not a big fan of minces but I would make sure they're roughly 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% secreting organ. Minces do nothing for their teeth so adding bones is for the best with a dog that size think big chunks with bone in them that he has to work on.
> 
> I feed prey model not barf so can't advise on veggies Buster won't touch them anyway.


Thanks for your speedy reply! 
Can you please tell me what 'prey model' is? 
Sorry I'm a bit confused with everything that's available


----------



## Nicky10

Rachelb74 said:


> Thanks for your speedy reply!
> Can you please tell me what 'prey model' is?
> Sorry I'm a bit confused with everything that's available


Barf feeders feed vegetables and other supplements as well as meat/bones/organs, prey model is just meat, bone and organ in ratios roughly the same as prey animals. It's not that complicated once you get used to it really especially once you realise you don't have to worry about getting everything exactly right.


----------



## Rachelb74

Nicky10 said:


> Barf feeders feed vegetables and other supplements as well as meat/bones/organs, prey model is just meat, bone and organ in ratios roughly the same as prey animals. It's not that complicated once you get used to it really especially once you realise you don't have to worry about getting everything exactly right.


Thank you for explaining it, no it's not complicated is it! 
One more question- Ive read that some people add supplements, vitamins, etc into the diet as well as meat, bones & veg,
Do you yourself add any, or do you think they're getting everything they need with this diet?
Thanks again


----------



## Nicky10

Rachelb74 said:


> Thank you for explaining it, no it's not complicated is it!
> One more question- Ive read that some people add supplements, vitamins, etc into the diet as well as meat, bones & veg,
> Do you yourself add any, or do you think they're getting everything they need with this diet?
> Thanks again


Only cod liver oil and glucosamine if he doesn't have oily fish as he has the beginning of arthritis, some people add apple cider vinegar which seems to be some kind of cure all and other things.


----------



## Rachelb74

Nicky10 said:


> Only cod liver oil and glucosamine if he doesn't have oily fish as he has the beginning of arthritis, some people add apple cider vinegar which seems to be some kind of cure all and other things.


Thanks, you've been really helpful


----------



## Nicky10

Sleepinglion knows more about barf style feeding and supplements I think if you message her she'll be happy to help.


----------



## luvmydogs

The puppies having a good workout for their teeth/jaws!!! ))


----------



## princesssaskia

Hi Rachel - its great that you have switched to a RAW diet and are seeing the benefits in your dog already - a nutritious RAW diet really is the best thing you can do for them (as well as plenty of love and exercise of course!)

I just wanted to reassure you that by feeding good quality meat, bones and organs, as well as the the odd can of oily fish and a couple of eggs, your dog should get all the nutrients he needs - its very personal thing the other supplements that people choose to add. As Nicky says, because of her dogs arthritis she chooses to add glucosomine, I also feed this to one of my old boys. My younger dogs are supplemented a few days a week just with garlic, organic apple cider vinegar (both of which have numerous health benefits and help to fend off parasites like worms and fleas), other days they have some flaxseed oil (for essential fatty acids) and I often chop fresh herbs into their veg which again offer protection against parasites. My very young pups are supplemented with RAW organic goats milk (along with their minced RAW carcasses untli they are old enough to tackle bigger stuff) and finally, any dogs in my care or that i 'treat' that are under the weather or are making the switch to RAW are typically supplemented with organic seaweed granules, to give them a vit/min boost

The key thing for me is to feed quality food. Im lucky enough to have access to a gamekeeper and so I feed a lot of whole game (pheasant, pigeon, rabbit, partridge, hare and duck) but I also feed free range lamb ribs/hearts and free range chicken carcasses. Remember that a lot of the 'minces' available contain meet that is of quite a low grade (for me personally this is a concern because the animals this meat comes from are typically reared intensively and fed a poor diet as well as routine antibiotics and possibly growth promoters - this does not make them 'good eating' for my dog and also lowers the nutritional content). Minces also do not offer much 'substance' they do not give the dogs teeth or gut a good workout. 

I would suggest feeding easy bones like free range chicken wings and necks to supplement your minces and then eventually, as you become more accustomed to the RAW way of feeding, you move on to feeding whole carcasses. Personally I only ever feed minced whole carcases to my pups and to mix through my veg supplements in the morning, in the eves i only ever feed whole carcasses

good luck x


----------



## Tilldob

Can i give raw Sardines every day,i recently switched my dogs onto the raw diet and have been giving them 2 sardines a day,is it ok to give every day
They mainly get Green Tripe and i give a Sardine for breakfast and one in the evening.


----------



## DirtyGertie

Tilldob said:


> Can i give raw Sardines every day,i recently switched my dogs onto the raw diet and have been giving them 2 sardines a day,is it ok to give every day
> They mainly get Green Tripe and i give a Sardine for breakfast and one in the evening.


Personally I wouldn't give them every day. My dog gets oily fish (mackerel, salmon or sardines) once a week, occasionally twice.

You need to give a variety of protein sources so if they're getting mainly tripe and sardines I'd be looking to add a few other meats too. Obviously introduce them gradually, i.e. one new meat a week to see if there is any reaction. Plus don't forget the offal they need too but leave that till last.


----------



## Nicky10

Tilldob said:


> Can i give raw Sardines every day,i recently switched my dogs onto the raw diet and have been giving them 2 sardines a day,is it ok to give every day
> They mainly get Green Tripe and i give a Sardine for breakfast and one in the evening.


Tripe isn't that great as a base for the diet they need meat and bones and organ with as much variety as you can manage but about 4 different kinds as a minimum. You'll need to introduce other sources slowly chicken is generally good to start with, quite bland meat and soft bones.

I wouldn't give sardines everyday they give beneficial oils but there's debate about their suitability for dogs.


----------



## EAD

I started feeding raw about 3 weeks ago, very slowly with Natural Instinct Pure chicken, then NI working chicken, this week introduced NI Pure Duck and next week will try salmon. Not sure what after that :001_huh:


----------



## Rachelb74

Just a quick post to say that Leo is getting on great with his food.
Gave him his first chicken drumsticks last week (raw obviously) 
He also had a knuckle bone which he enjoyed too
His main day to day diet at the moment consists of Natures Menu free flow chicken & lamb mince with the pre-done veg nuggets, all of which is defrosted as & when needed.
Last month I tried him on Basil's food which he really enjoyed, where I mixed in my own selection of veg (that also contained ground bone & offal.
I'm experimenting at the minute to see which he prefers- I think he likes the Basil's best!)
Will be trying some chicken wings this week 
Overall I'm really happy how its going & I know Leo is loving his new diet too


----------



## suespoon

Wow! This is all so helpful! My golden doodle is 18 months old and we have just started a raw food diet which includes bones and veg/some fruit. Now 2 weeks in and she LOVES it all. Read Honey's Natural Feeding Handbook for Dogs before starting and decided to try to make up meals myself (with the help of the butcher/supermarket/farmers' market). It is not difficult but takes time - but then good food isn't fast food!!! Lola is very energetic and in good shape,so there is no obvious change to her behaviour or look, though I am hoping we are setting her up for a healthy future. I really believe in raw food diets and will do my best to make up super tasty meals for her that she will continue to enjoy. Those days of boring dried meals even with moist added are definitely gone! We try to get organic or at least free range everything. We wouldn't eat rubbish so why should we feed it to our gorgeous dog? Love to hear what others think. I tried to read the whole thread but 118 pages beat me!!! All knowledgeable advice gladly received.


----------



## Rachelb74

Hi, 
As a recent convert to raw feeding (6 weeks) I was wondering if I'm giving my 10 month old Newfypoo the right kind of things in his diet? 
Is there anything else that I should be giving him that you think he NEEDS in his raw diet?
Below is what I have been feeding him so far-
Thank you, I really appreciate all the valuable advice 

So far I've been feeding-
'Natures Menu'- chicken/lamb minces & Veg nuggets daily or 'Basil's' mince/veg with ground bone
Raw chicken legs or wings 4/5 times a week
Tinned sardines or mackerel in oil approx 4 times a week
Garlic supplement daily 
Cod liver oil supplement daily
Glucosamine & chondroitin barley & oat biscuits as a treat daily or sometimes mixed in with breakfast.

Thanks again for reading


----------



## princesssaskia

Rachelb74 said:


> Hi,
> As a recent convert to raw feeding (6 weeks) I was wondering if I'm giving my 10 month old Newfypoo the right kind of things in his diet?
> Is there anything else that I should be giving him that you think he NEEDS in his raw diet?
> Below is what I have been feeding him so far-
> Thank you, I really appreciate all the valuable advice
> 
> So far I've been feeding-
> 'Natures Menu'- chicken/lamb minces & Veg nuggets daily or 'Basil's' mince/veg with ground bone
> Raw chicken legs or wings 4/5 times a week
> Tinned sardines or mackerel in oil approx 4 times a week
> Garlic supplement daily
> Cod liver oil supplement daily
> Glucosamine & chondroitin barley & oat biscuits as a treat daily or sometimes mixed in with breakfast.
> 
> Thanks again for reading


Hiya, to be honest you doing pretty well at present, my comments would be as follows:

- I cant comment on Basil's minces as i dont have any personal experience of them but personally i dont find natures menu to be very good quality ingredients - i prefer Manifold Valley Meats for good quality minces (Honeys are even better but quite expensive). Manifold have a great range including rabbit, mixed game, lamb, chicken, turkey, tripe etc which means you can feed a good variety and its roughly £1.30 a kilo

- the veg nuggets are handy - or honeys an basil add veg already - but you could try making up your own veg/fruit mix with seasonal veg etc, this is fun and you can include a great variety of stuff this way, its very affordable if you use your own veg scraps, stuff on offer or things you can pick or grow for free!!!! my advice is to mix a big batch up and then freeze in sandwich bag, i make a months worth at a time this way for very little cost!

- raw chicken legs/wings 4/5 times a week is good - you can try feeding whole chick carcasses next, they are often better value - again try and get the best quality you can, organic or at least free range - personally i spent ages locating a lovely local man who breeds free range birds (proper free range - they roam outside in meadows ALL day and have ovely roomy dirt floor barns at night) I get chicken carcasses off him for £1.20 a kilo

- you could also try some lamb breast/ribs - also lamb heart or ox heart is great (remember you want to feed a variety of meat)

-tinned fish in oil 3 or 4 times a week is ok, no more though

- you dont really need to feed cod liver oil if you are feeding fish, i would feed a diff oil like olive or flaxseed and alternate it with garlic and also with organic cider vinegar (so 1 day oil, 1 day cider vinegar, i day garlic etc)

-if you wanted to add anything else, i personally add different herbs and spices (again alternating them, only a little at a time and as fresh and organic as poss) herbs and spices are fantastic for repelling parasites - though cider vinegar and garlic alone are pretty effective

Only my opinion guys, everyone finds there own way, but reading and asking (and experience) is the only way to learn

good luck xxxxx


----------



## EAD

Bought Prize Choice mince today to try......rabbit, tripe, lamb and turkey.

Ive read mixed opinions on chalky poos, some say thats when things are going ok and others say feed less bone so im not sure whats right :001_unsure:


----------



## Nicky10

Chalky poos means they've had too much calcium so generally too much bone so it's being excreted. Cut down on the amount of bone and it should be fine.


----------



## Goblin

Rachelb74 said:


> Hi,
> As a recent convert to raw feeding (6 weeks) I was wondering if I'm giving my 10 month old Newfypoo the right kind of things in his diet?


I'd try and put at least one other protein source, possibly beef heart, pig heart or something similar but that's only my preference. I try to have at least 4 different types of meat.

Needs at some time.. organs.. should work up slowly up to 10% of which 5% should be liver. You were probably planning on adding it at some stage but that's all I can see that's needed as such in the long term.


----------



## Rachelb74

Goblin said:


> I'd try and put at least one other protein source, possibly beef heart, pig heart or something similar but that's only my preference. I try to have at least 4 different types of meat.
> 
> Needs at some time.. organs.. should work up slowly up to 10% of which 5% should be liver. You were probably planning on adding it at some stage but that's all I can see that's needed as such in the long term.





princesssaskia said:


> Hiya, to be honest you doing pretty well at present, my comments would be as follows:
> 
> - I cant comment on Basil's minces as i dont have any personal experience of them but personally i dont find natures menu to be very good quality ingredients - i prefer Manifold Valley Meats for good quality minces (Honeys are even better but quite expensive). Manifold have a great range including rabbit, mixed game, lamb, chicken, turkey, tripe etc which means you can feed a good variety and its roughly £1.30 a kilo
> 
> - the veg nuggets are handy - or honeys an basil add veg already - but you could try making up your own veg/fruit mix with seasonal veg etc, this is fun and you can include a great variety of stuff this way, its very affordable if you use your own veg scraps, stuff on offer or things you can pick or grow for free!!!! my advice is to mix a big batch up and then freeze in sandwich bag, i make a months worth at a time this way for very little cost!
> 
> - raw chicken legs/wings 4/5 times a week is good - you can try feeding whole chick carcasses next, they are often better value - again try and get the best quality you can, organic or at least free range - personally i spent ages locating a lovely local man who breeds free range birds (proper free range - they roam outside in meadows ALL day and have ovely roomy dirt floor barns at night) I get chicken carcasses off him for £1.20 a kilo
> 
> - you could also try some lamb breast/ribs - also lamb heart or ox heart is great (remember you want to feed a variety of meat)
> 
> -tinned fish in oil 3 or 4 times a week is ok, no more though
> 
> - you dont really need to feed cod liver oil if you are feeding fish, i would feed a diff oil like olive or flaxseed and alternate it with garlic and also with organic cider vinegar (so 1 day oil, 1 day cider vinegar, i day garlic etc)
> 
> -if you wanted to add anything else, i personally add different herbs and spices (again alternating them, only a little at a time and as fresh and organic as poss) herbs and spices are fantastic for repelling parasites - though cider vinegar and garlic alone are pretty effective
> 
> Only my opinion guys, everyone finds there own way, but reading and asking (and experience) is the only way to learn
> 
> good luck xxxxx


Thank you both so much for your advice, it's really helpful to have this info when starting out on raw.
Glad that I seem to be doing an alright job so far 
I do intend to start feeding organs soon, Am i to assume these ARE essential? 
I'm a bit squeamish  so wanted to try & switch to raw food without feeling I needed to vomit everytime I'm dishing up! 
Also when you say 'carcass' do you mean just give him the whole chicken as it is? (Obviously I'd halve it at least as a whole one would be too much for him I think)
Sorry I'm still a little nervous of quantities & no-no's


----------



## princesssaskia

Rachelb74 said:


> Thank you both so much for your advice, it's really helpful to have this info when starting out on raw.
> Glad that I seem to be doing an alright job so far
> I do intend to start feeding organs soon, Am i to assume these ARE essential?
> I'm a bit squeamish  so wanted to try & switch to raw food without feeling I needed to vomit everytime I'm dishing up!
> Also when you say 'carcass' do you mean just give him the whole chicken as it is? (Obviously I'd halve it at least as a whole one would be too much for him I think)
> Sorry I'm still a little nervous of quantities & no-no's


Hiya Rachel

first off - woops - sorry yes i forgot to mention organs didnt I!!!! The reason I forgot is because I personally feed whole game (rabbit, pheasant, partridge, pigeon - which include ALL the organs, so i never have to worry about adding in extra as a rule - though I do feed a bit of additional lamb or chicken liver at times)

Yes to answer your question it is essential to feed some organs - if you are a little squeamish I would stick to chicken or lamb livers and kidneys - you can buy these from the butcher or from the supermarket and they dont look too bad !! - if at all poss buy organic - the kidneys and liver are used to 'filter' toxins, so if they come from an animal thats been intensively farmed and pumped full of chemicals then this lowers their nutritional value. If you just fed a small portion of each, each week then that will be fine

Technically the heart is an organ too, but since its actually a giant muscle, its nutritional value is equal to muscle meat which means you can feed a lot more of it - if you ask your butcher to chop up a big ox heart or some lamb hearts, then they pretty much just look like chunks of rich meat! You will get the hang of it, and eventually you will have a strong stomach - Im a veggie and i now gut whole rabbits and pluck birds without batting an eye  just think of all the goodness you are giving your dog, its worth getting your hands dirty!!!!

As for carcasses, what we generally mean is the shell of the bird after the breast, dark meat, thighs and drums sticks have been taken off - so its a fair bit of bone, with cartilage and some meat clinging to it, sometimes the wings are left on, sometimes not - how much you feed depends on the size of the carcass and the size of your dog! Again, most RAW feeders go by 'feel' just feed what you feel is right and adjust accordingly depending on your dogs weight
:thumbsup:


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## princesssaskia

EAD said:


> Bought Prize Choice mince today to try......rabbit, tripe, lamb and turkey.


Ahhhhhhhhhhh (not a personal attack on you so PLEASE dont take offence :sneaky2 but I find the prize choice minces of really poor quality!

I do understand that they are easy to get hold of and not too daunting for someone new to the RAW way of feeding but the meat in them is very low quality - also despite saying 'may include small bits of bone' on the packaging, they DO NOT include anywhere near enough bone to provide a balanced meal - so if you were feeding them alone you would need to add chick wings, necks, carcasses or some other form of bone (like ribs)

There are many places online that you can order minces from - providing you have the space to store them (a decent freezer for RAW feeders is essential, so that you can bulk buy a good variety of stuff) the place I use is called Manifold Valley Meats Pet Food Prices & Deliveries » Manifold Valley Meats they provide a great selection of MINCED CARCASSES which provide a great balance of meat and bone - they have turkey, chicken, lamb, rabbit, venison, game for example - they also do tons of other stuff including tripe and great value bulk deals like 10kg free range chick necks for £11!!!! xxx


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## EAD

Hey I definitely wouldnt take offence :thumbsup:

I bought the Prize Choice really just to try the new meats, not to feed longterm as they have never had turkey/rabbit/lamb or tripe before. I did notice the low bone content on the packaging 4gms in 100gms.

I have been feeding Natural Instinct Working range and so far have tried chicken/salmon and duck.

So tonight Alfie and Lily both had 50/50 of Natural Instinct Chicken & Salmon along with the Prize Choice Turkey.

Im also in Northern Ireland so a lot of companies on the mainland dont deliver here :001_smile:


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## Rachelb74

Thanks to all for your valuable advice


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## ShannonF

Hi, So I've been feeding my 6 month old dogue de bordeaux pup on prey model since bringing her home at 8 weeks, she started out on minced chicked (with bone) and green tripe, then moved to chicken wings, hearts, and chicken legs. She now has beef trim, chicken quarters, chicken carcasses, sardines/mackerel in olive oil, salmon (don't worry has been frozen first to kill any parasites) heart, eggs and tripe... so she has a varied diet. My problem is I gave her ribs the other day and the made her sick for 2 days and then there was massive pieces of bone in her poo so she obviously hadn't chewed them up very much, also she doesn't like liver or kidney... the only organ meat she will eat is tripe! I'm worried that she is not getting everything she needs nutrient wise as she is not eating the correct amount of everything the prey model suggests. she doesn't really like meat, she prefers the more boney meat ie carcasses and turns her nose up and leaves other meat like the beef trim, heart and chicken quarters... to a point where I have to hand feed her, even then she isn't that interested! I'm wondering whether to switch her onto Orijen food as at least that is still biologically appropriate ( 80% meat 20% fruit/veg 0% grain). Any ideas what I should do? How important is it for my dog to eat liver as I know it is meant to make up half of organ meat given?


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## princesssaskia

ShannonF said:


> Hi, So I've been feeding my 6 month old dogue de bordeaux pup on prey model since bringing her home at 8 weeks, she started out on minced chicked (with bone) and green tripe, then moved to chicken wings, hearts, and chicken legs. She now has beef trim, chicken quarters, chicken carcasses, sardines/mackerel in olive oil, salmon (don't worry has been frozen first to kill any parasites) heart, eggs and tripe... so she has a varied diet. My problem is I gave her ribs the other day and the made her sick for 2 days and then there was massive pieces of bone in her poo so she obviously hadn't chewed them up very much, also she doesn't like liver or kidney... the only organ meat she will eat is tripe! I'm worried that she is not getting everything she needs nutrient wise as she is not eating the correct amount of everything the prey model suggests. she doesn't really like meat, she prefers the more boney meat ie carcasses and turns her nose up and leaves other meat like the beef trim, heart and chicken quarters... to a point where I have to hand feed her, even then she isn't that interested! I'm wondering whether to switch her onto Orijen food as at least that is still biologically appropriate ( 80% meat 20% fruit/veg 0% grain). Any ideas what I should do? How important is it for my dog to eat liver as I know it is meant to make up half of organ meat given?


How much liver are you trying to feed her? They only need a little bit each week, try cutting it up small and mixing through the smelly old tripe, that might disguise it a bit!!!

Have you thought about feeding game? one of mine absolutly loves partridge, pheasant, venison, pigeon, rabbit, duck etc but is not a big fan of lamb or beef or pork! You can feed whole game if you can get it from local gamekeeper - this fits in fab with prey model, as it literally is whole prey and contains everything in the right proportions. If you can get (or dont like the idea of feeding whole game) then there are companies online that do minced game carcasses, you could try these instead I get mine from Pet Food Prices & Deliveries » Manifold Valley Meats

what were the ribs you gave her? lamb? maybe she was sick as she had not had lamb before - I have one dog who throws up whenever i give her any new meat - but after gradually introducing it in small amounts she is fine, my other dogs will eat ANYTHING ANYTIME ANYWHERE!!! There is a lot more bone in ribs than in chicken carcasses, so dont feed too much rib while they are still young

also rmemeber good food like prey or BARF is so nutritious you dont need to feed too much, generally i always stick to the rule that a dog especially a pup, should be keen to eat, if they are not then maybe you are feeding a bit too much - though obviously you need to make sure they get enough variety

xxx


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## suespoon

Hi there. Lola's mum again! I am finding Lola loves her new food so much, she is always looking for more! I give her a little more than her weight suggests, but she has always been greedy and she burns it off so is still quite low weight. She will eat absolutely anything, except cashew nut butter! Strange that, as she loves peanut butter. Has anyone else experienced this appetite for food increasing on a raw food diet? An I missing something critical in her diet? Thanks.


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## princesssaskia

suespoon said:


> Hi there. Lola's mum again! I am finding Lola loves her new food so much, she is always looking for more! I give her a little more than her weight suggests, but she has always been greedy and she burns it off so is still quite low weight. She will eat absolutely anything, except cashew nut butter! Strange that, as she loves peanut butter. Has anyone else experienced this appetite for food increasing on a raw food diet? An I missing something critical in her diet? Thanks.


I have always found that dogs seem to 'love' a RAW diet, its as if they know its doing them good and certainly the taste of real food and the variety offered must be appealing to them - but in general you should find that you actually feed less food when on a RAW diet, because the nutritional content is so much higher and the dog is processing everything he eats so doesnt require as large a quantity as 'empty' pet food!

some dogs are greedy buggers but its great to have a dog who will eat anything, it makes RAW feeding so much fun and gives you so much scope for variety - its healthy to have a dog who is 'keen' to eat, those that are not are usually being fed too much!

Provided you are feeding at least 4 different types of meat weekly, bone, some offal (including liver), some fruit/veg, an egg or 2 and a bit of oily fish then you can be confident your pooch is getting all the nutrition she needs

Dont worry about weights and amounts, just go on your dogs weight, she should not be skinny with bones showing but she should not be fat either - most pet dogs are overweight these days, a lean muscled dog is what you want.

One final thing, be sure that your dog does not have worms, you can help avoid parasites with a RAW diet by freezing the meat as cold as possible for at least 24hrs before defrosting and feeding. signs of worms include diarrhoea, vomiting, coughing, itching bottom, dull/harsh coat, ribby appearance, incessant appetite - it is natural for dogs to have a low level of parasites but if the little nasties are absorbing all the nutrients your dog is eating then she will be hungry!!!! I am a natural breeder and as such I choose not to use chemical wormers on any of my dogs, including my puppies!!! If you take a look at my facebook page, you will find a guide I have done on 'preparing veg for a RAW food diet' and in this guide there is a whole page dedicated to anti-parasitic herbs/spices/seeds that you can include daily in your dogs diet to help protect her against parasites - I have used this as my only form of routine parasite control with great success for many years

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...447.1073741846.134011846787624&type=1&theater

if this link doesnt work, go to my page direct and look for guide www.facebook.com/greenlovebullterriers


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## suespoon

Fantastic advice! You are a gem! Checked your guidance on parasites. I don't think she has worms, she has always been greedy if she likes the smell of the food, and doesn't care whose food!! Can I clarify something: do I add the seeds/spices to both garlic and cider vinegar, or just to the vinegar? Big big thanks for this.


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## EAD

Just checking is their any need to freeze pigs liver I have bought from the local butcher before feeding to the dogs?


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## princesssaskia

suespoon said:


> Fantastic advice! You are a gem! Checked your guidance on parasites. I don't think she has worms, she has always been greedy if she likes the smell of the food, and doesn't care whose food!! Can I clarify something: do I add the seeds/spices to both garlic and cider vinegar, or just to the vinegar? Big big thanks for this.


Hiya, glad you liked my guide, I put it on my facebook page as so many of my clients were interested in the idea, and posting it with pictures helps to clarify things a bit I think

To answer your question, I generally suggest you feed EITHER crushed garlic OR cyder vinegar each day AND then add 1 or 2 of any of the herbs/seeds/spices listed

I have just posted another guide on my facebook page, which is a RAW diet balanced weekly puppy menu plan - on each page right at the bottom of the description, you will see recommended daily anti-parasitic herbs etc, this will give you a good isda of what to feed over the course of a week for continued protection, its written for pups of course but the same applies for adults, just increase the amounts slightly - of course you may need to start with small amounts till your dog gets used to the taste (some of the things are smellier than others and your dog may wonder what they are at first - but rest assured he will get used to them in time) Here is the link https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...528.1073741852.134011846787624&type=1&theater

I tend to feed these things everyday in spring and summer but throughout the colder months, when parasites are not as prevalent, you can reduce the intake to a couple of times a week as a maintenance dose

I typically supplement this program with weekly/fortnightly baths throughout 'flea' season with a sls, paraben and detergent free natural shampoo (it uses therapeutic grade essential oils like citronella - though I usually 'pimp' mine up a bit with my own anti-parasitic oils such as tea tree and neem oil) It costs about a fiver, and lasts for ages and is available on ebay https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...216.1073741847.134011846787624&type=3&theater

xxx


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## RachRubyx

Really good info on here just been reading your guide *princesssaskia* really good.

I have just started to feed Raw full time and trying to do it properly. Started couple months ago giving Raw Pork Ribs, Natures Instinct and Liver. Last week I bought pork ribs and chicken thighs from butchers for good price. Ruby has been going toilet great (normally suffers from loose poo's and straining + anal Gland issues. Fed her Cooked Chicken Breast, Sardines and Applaws dry before so good stuff but she struggles with toilet unless on raw). I noticed that she had chalky poo's so gave her raw turkey mince last 2 days and seemed to help. Just bought a Lambs Breast with Ribs and she had 100g of that today and 30g of mince.

I worked out for her weight she needs daily;
112g of pure meat
24g of bone
16g of veg
8g liver (offal)

How do I know how much bone content is in meat. Like Lamb Breast or Pork Ribs just so I know how much she is getting. The piece of lamb breast with bone I cut off for today weighed 100g including the bone.

Am wanting to give Ruby like raw mince in morning and a meaty bone such as pork ribs in evening. Oh and obvs won't give liver every day as 8g is such a tiny portion. Probs feed it twice a week.


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## pogo

One thing i notice is everyone tries to work out the ratio for each day or meal. You really don't need to, it makes it fiddly and stressful

I let the ratios work them selves our over about 3 months! It's much more natural and realistic to do! So theres no working out how much bone is in a wing nothing like that!


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## Phoolf

Same as pogo really, I don't see the need to try and faff about with daily amounts. I think for Kes it's something like (feeding two meals a day), 2 offal meals, 2 bone meals and the rest meat every week. Ta-da!!


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## SLB

Same as Phoolf and Pogo.. You're making raw far too hard by working out 80:10:10 a day. Do it over the course of a week - or a month. Phoolf's idea is the easiest - 10 days, 1 is offal, the other is bone, the rest is meat. 

As it stands mine get whatever I decide to give them. In a week they have 1 meal of offal, with a bone. 2 meals of bone in meals, 3 meals of tripe and 1 meal of a chunk of meat/fish. As long as I don't give two tripe meals consecutively or after an offal meal - they do just fine


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## DirtyGertie

RachRubyx said:


> I worked out for her weight she needs daily;
> 112g of pure meat
> 24g of bone
> 16g of veg
> 8g liver (offal)
> 
> How do I know how much bone content is in meat. Like Lamb Breast or Pork Ribs just so I know how much she is getting. The piece of lamb breast with bone I cut off for today weighed 100g including the bone.
> 
> Am wanting to give Ruby like raw mince in morning and a meaty bone such as pork ribs in evening. Oh and obvs won't give liver every day as 8g is such a tiny portion. Probs feed it twice a week.





pogo said:


> One thing i notice is everyone tries to work out the ratio for each day or meal. You really don't need to, it makes it fiddly and stressful
> 
> I let the ratios work them selves our over about 3 months! It's much more natural and realistic to do! So theres no working out how much bone is in a wing nothing like that!


Ditto what Pogo says. I don't even try to work out the amount of bone in weight, I go by poops. I tend to work out 10 days food at a time, Poppy needs 140g per day so this is what I do:

140g x 10 = 1400g
Offal = 10% = 140g - 1/2 liver and 1/2 kidney = 70g of each over 10 days
(I divide the offal up into 35g portions and add to another meat)

I then forget about exact amounts as long as the daily total is approx 140g so this is what 10 days might look like

Day 1 - Tripe chunks..............................Bone in rabbit
Day 2 - 35g liver with chicken chunks........Chicken wing
Day 3 - Mackerel ...................................Chicken wing
Day 4 - Duck mince ...............................35g kidney with chicken chunks
Day 5 - Pork chunks................................Chicken wing
Day 6 - Tripe and chicken chunks .............Bone in duck
Day 7 - 35g liver with rabbit mince ............Heart and pork chunks
Day 8 - Tinned fish .................................Chicken wing
Day 9 - Duck chunks................................Chicken wing
Day 10 -35g kidney with lamb chunks..........Turkey chunks

I swap the boney meals around, I've just ordered some chicken carcasses and duck carcasses plus I have some lamb ribs and pork ribs and I'll be ordering some duck wings, duck necks and turkey necks soon. I keep an eye on her poops and if they're too hard I swap a boney meal for another meaty meal.

The amount per meaty meal depends on how much the boney meal weighs. Some wings are up to 110g in weight so she gets a small meaty meal which I bulk out with blended veggies. If she goes over one day I drop the next day's amount down a bit.

I don't do an all offal meal as it doesn't suit Poppy, she's better if I put a smaller amount in with something else.

I've got a few packs of mince left to use up so pop those in occasionally but am using more chunks now. I tend to portion up about 30 days' worth of meals at a time so only need to do it once a month.

And that's it.

You really don't need to work it out exactly. As long as you're getting about the right amount of offal then you can relax a bit about the meat/bone content and keep an eye on the poops. Struggling to go then lower the bone content a bit (swap a boney meal or two for a meaty one), too soft then up the bone content.


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## RachRubyx

Ah thanks everyone  I just don't want to overfeed. Due to her being small at 8kg and needing to lose 1kg and being neutered portions run on the small size.

I been doing what you lot said anyway just giving roughly what I think is right.
As I said she had slightly chalky poo (but not struggling) which I read means to high bone content. She'd had a chicken thigh and Pork Rib the day before so quite alot of bone. So i've just given her mince last 2 days and then today given her 100g Lamb Rib/Breast and 30g mince. 

I feel it be easier to just give a Bone meal like ribs a couple times a week as its hard to break them down to smaller pieces 100g is smallest can do really. And since shes only meant to have 150g a day (she is fed a few little bits from my mum as she can't resist her puppy dog eyes). I don't like to give to much offal as it tends to give upset stomach as she already suffers from loose stools.


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## DirtyGertie

RachRubyx said:


> Ah thanks everyone  I just don't want to overfeed. Due to her being small at 8kg and needing to lose 1kg and being neutered portions run on the small size.
> 
> I been doing what you lot said anyway just giving roughly what I think is right.
> As I said she had slightly chalky poo (but not struggling) which I read means to high bone content. She'd had a chicken thigh and Pork Rib the day before so quite alot of bone. So i've just given her mince last 2 days and then today given her 100g Lamb Rib/Breast and 30g mince.
> 
> I feel it be easier to just give a Bone meal like ribs a couple times a week as its hard to break them down to smaller pieces 100g is smallest can do really. And since shes only meant to have 150g a day (she is fed a few little bits from my mum as she can't resist her puppy dog eyes). *I don't like to give to much offal as it tends to give upset stomach as she already suffers from loose stools*.


Just give smaller amounts of offal at a time for now, as long as she gets the correct amount in, say, a month then you can spread it over however many meals as you wish. I started Poppy on little fingernail size pieces. Once I knew she didn't have any reaction then I increased it to 10g then gradually up to the 35g she gets now.

I find that 140g per day is keeping my neutered Bichon's weight steady at approx 5.5kg. If she puts any weight on (I weigh her occasionally) then I drop the daily allowance down by 10g. She doesn't get fed anything else apart from her training treats, a small bedtime biscuit and an occasional tripe chew or duck strip or rabbit's ear or something, perhaps twice a week.


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## RachRubyx

DirtyGertie said:


> Just give smaller amounts of offal at a time for now, as long as she gets the correct amount in, say, a month then you can spread it over however many meals as you wish. I started Poppy on little fingernail size pieces. Once I knew she didn't have any reaction then I increased it to 10g then gradually up to the 35g she gets now.
> 
> I find that 140g per day is keeping my neutered Bichon's weight steady at approx 5.5kg. If she puts any weight on (I weigh her occasionally) then I drop the daily allowance down by 10g. She doesn't get fed anything else apart from her training treats, a small bedtime biscuit and an occasional tripe chew or duck strip or rabbit's ear or something, perhaps twice a week.


Thats a good idea she loves liver and heart I give it as treats now as she is epiletic so try and keep treats as natural as possible. I've been cooking the liver into small little bites or making liver bread and freezing it. I know it better to give raw but is it really important to give liver raw? Its just easier to give cooked as a treat rather than raw (I can't deal with bloody fleshy things lol)


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## DirtyGertie

RachRubyx said:


> Thats a good idea she loves liver and heart I give it as treats now as she is epiletic so try and keep treats as natural as possible. I've been cooking the liver into small little bites or making liver bread and freezing it. I know it better to give raw but is it really important to give liver raw? Its just easier to give cooked as a treat rather than raw (I can't deal with bloody fleshy things lol)


No, it doesn't have to be raw. Some raw feeders on here have dogs who wont eat liver raw so they flash fry it and their dogs will eat it fine that way. Or you could dehydrate it or buy dried liver (I got some from The Factory Shop a couple of weeks ago, just pure 100% dried liver).

I never used to be able to "do" liver, I used to get my late hubby to chop it up and cook it very slowly in the oven and use it as training treats. Now he's no longer here I have to do all the meat stuff myself and as an almost veggie (I eat chicken/turkey/fish, no other meat) then I've had to steel myself to it and I'm fine now. I used to ask the butcher to chop up the heart to start with but I can do that now, also the liver and kidney. I've even progressed from doing it in those latex gloves to doing it with bare hands now!

There's another thought - as she'll eat cooked liver, maybe cut up into treat size pieces, cook for a long time on a very low temperature in the oven to dry it out and use some (or all) of the liver that you need to give over a period of time as training treats. It will keep in the fridge and you can freeze it too .


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## RachRubyx

DirtyGertie said:


> No, it doesn't have to be raw. Some raw feeders on here have dogs who wont eat liver raw so they flash fry it and their dogs will eat it fine that way. Or you could dehydrate it or buy dried liver (I got some from The Factory Shop a couple of weeks ago, just pure 100% dried liver).
> 
> I never used to be able to "do" liver, I used to get my late hubby to chop it up and cook it very slowly in the oven and use it as training treats. Now he's no longer here I have to do all the meat stuff myself and as an almost veggie (I eat chicken/turkey/fish, no other meat) then I've had to steel myself to it and I'm fine now. I used to ask the butcher to chop up the heart to start with but I can do that now, also the liver and kidney. I've even progressed from doing it in those latex gloves to doing it with bare hands now!
> 
> There's another thought - as she'll eat cooked liver, maybe cut up into treat size pieces, cook for a long time on a very low temperature in the oven to dry it out and use some (or all) of the liver that you need to give over a period of time as training treats. It will keep in the fridge and you can freeze it too .


She'd eat it raw but its me I can't deal with the blood and slimy kinda texture. Feels squishy :S I do what you say anyway cook into low for long time till blood dried and that vile smell gone. Cut it up into tiny pieces and portion enough for week and freeze rest. I will keep doing that then if its ok for her.

Also what about heart is that ok cooked or is it better raw. I know its very rich but some class it as meat and others as offal. I got a heart last week from butchers and she liked it raw and cooked. I had to get my boyfriend to cut it up as I use to be veggie and barely ate meat now only chicken.

Can I ask what supplements people recommend. I've read the veg+nuts sticky and buying a food processor soon to start making some mixtures to add to raw meals. I know people say that if the ratio is right no need to supplement.

At the moment I give Skullcap + Valeria tablets (For epilepsy as off meds and taken a herbal route), Salmon Oil (F4D), Natural yogurt, Vets Kitchen Joint Gravy (She is 5 this year and know cavs can suffer with joint issues so starting her now as it was very cheap £[email protected] Asda), Garlic (for fleas) and just bought Apple Cider Vinegar with mother organic.

She has a soft feeling coat but looks quite dry (never sore or itchy) and her coat is curly and like a bit scruffy looking like a bit wooly looking especially around back area like tuffs of hair. I shampoo her with Pethead and conditioner (not all the time just once a month) and groom everyday with groomers spray and she has plently of fish and salmon oil. I've tried everything as really want that long feathered sleek cavalier hair but her hair doesn't grow long or feathered just thick and coarse. She is full pedigree just obvs bad breeding her mother who we viewed was the same. Its not dry coat though vet said.


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## DirtyGertie

RachRubyx said:


> She'd eat it raw but its me I can't deal with the blood and slimy kinda texture. Feels squishy :S I do what you say anyway cook into low for long time till blood dried and that vile smell gone. Cut it up into tiny pieces and portion enough for week and freeze rest. I will keep doing that then if its ok for her.


I can't see anything wrong with that, as long as she's getting her offal ratio then it should be fine. Don't forget that liver is only 5% of her diet, the other 5% offal can be kidney.



> Also what about heart is that ok cooked or is it better raw. I know its very rich but some class it as meat and others as offal. I got a heart last week from butchers and she liked it raw and cooked. I had to get my boyfriend to cut it up as I use to be veggie and barely ate meat now only chicken.


If you can give heart raw I would. It's not as bloody nor soft and slimey as liver, I find it's quite firm. You could always part freeze it and cut it up and portion it that way. The kidneys I had last week from the butcher came frozen so I just left them out for a little while until I could get a good sharp knife through them, portioned, bagged and put in freezer. When needed I just put one portion in a dish, defrost in fridge and tip it into Poppy's bowl the next day, no need to touch it when defrosted.

Heart is classed as muscle meat.

Can your boyfriend help out with portioning/cutting up those things you're having a problem with?



> Can I ask what supplements people recommend. I've read the veg+nuts sticky and buying a food processor soon to start making some mixtures to add to raw meals. I know people say that if the ratio is right no need to supplement.
> 
> At the moment I give Skullcap + Valeria tablets (For epilepsy as off meds and taken a herbal route), Salmon Oil (F4D), Natural yogurt, Vets Kitchen Joint Gravy (She is 5 this year and know cavs can suffer with joint issues so starting her now as it was very cheap £[email protected] Asda), Garlic (for fleas) and just bought Apple Cider Vinegar with mother organic.


Personally I don't give any, Poppy has no health problems so all she gets is some natural yogurt and the blended veggie/nut mix a few times a week. Some garlic is in the veggie mix and I put ACV in her drinking water. For a healthy dog this contains a lot of vitamins and minerals and along with a varied raw diet for me this is enough. If she had health problems I'd look at it at the time and find out what supplements may help.



> She has a soft feeling coat but looks quite dry (never sore or itchy) and her coat is curly and like a bit scruffy looking like a bit wooly looking especially around back area like tuffs of hair. I shampoo her with Pethead and conditioner (not all the time just once a month) and groom everyday with groomers spray and she has plently of fish and salmon oil. I've tried everything as really want that long feathered sleek cavalier hair but her hair doesn't grow long or feathered just thick and coarse. She is full pedigree just obvs bad breeding her mother who we viewed was the same. Its not dry coat though vet said.


Does she go to the groomers? Have you discussed her coat with the groomer? A very quick google brought up *this*, if you scroll down there is a "Silky Smooth" shampoo for Cavvies. I'm not recommending it as I've not tried it but maybe you could ask other Cavvie owners, on here or other breed specific forum, what they do.


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## Lizz1155

Hello, although I haven't had time to read all 113 pages in this thread, I just wanted to post a guide to the science and evidence behind the BARF diet and raw food diets for dogs. (Apologies to anyone who's already linked to it, but I think it's important to know these things). http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/raw-meat-and-bone-diets-for-dogs-its-enough-to-make-you-barf/


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## RachRubyx

She has been the groomers once but she really disliked it and they cut her awful. Totally hacked at her beautiful ears. I don't like cavaliers to be cut so just trim her paws at home and sometimes trim bottom area as you can imagine its quite hairy and no2s can get matted into it. 

I do brush daily and with a furminator couple times a week and use groomers spray. I use a 2-1 shampoo and conditioner. To be honest I've asked cavaliers owners on the cavalier forums and they all suggest just shampoo and conditioner normally groomers or pet head and brush daily. 

We are actually going to get her groomed this month by a nice lady who comes to your home so it's less stressful. She does whatever you want so just ask her to trim paws and show me how to groom.

Her coat isn't matted and soft and shiny but its coarse and curly suppose I just have to go over it. My aunties cav has a beautiful coat but he comes from fanatic pedigree so that's be why.

I will have a look at that link think I saw fee sample. I can't see it making much difference it's kinda like trying to make curly hair straight with shampoo conditioner doesn't work need to use chemical relaxers or heat.

I've done a thread before on this about grooming didn't get much response. I am going to try again as I have pics and plus don't want to clog rawfeeding forum with grooming stuff.


----------



## RachRubyx

Sorry phone acted up and quoted what I said and reposted :s

Just bought salmon from Asda says packed in Scotland. Do I need to freeze it still?


----------



## DirtyGertie

RachRubyx said:


> Sorry phone acted up and quoted what I said and reposted :s
> 
> Just bought salmon from Asda says packed in Scotland. Do I need to freeze it still?


Yes, I would. "Packed in Scotland" only tells you that the salmon was packed there, not where it was caught. If there are any parasites a minimum of 24 hours in the freezer will sort it out, if it was cooked there'd be no problem.


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## RachRubyx

DirtyGertie said:


> Yes, I would. "Packed in Scotland" only tells you that the salmon was packed there, not where it was caught. If there are any parasites a minimum of 24 hours in the freezer will sort it out, if it was cooked there'd be no problem.


Cheers I generally try and freeze most of the stuff anyway just incase.


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## princesssaskia

Hi guys, thought it was about time i checked in again! Goodness this thread is so long now - its great!!!! Just been reading through some of my early posts to this thread many moons ago, was amused to see how my RAW feeding plan has altered since then, indeed as I said in my very first post, you should never be afraid to change and adapt your RAW menu in line with experience and knowledge you gain on your RAW journey!

i have now been RAW feeding for nearly 14 years and currently all my doggys eat a slightly different version, my bully adults are on a low protein, kidney supportive diet (since english bull terriers are genetically prone to kidney issues and typically do better on a low protein diet) my puppys are on 3 meals a day and small meaty bones etc etc and my other dog is on what i now call my standard adult RAW diet!!!

I have a facebook page that I started for my breeding of English Bull Terriers and on that page I have posted lots of info on RAW feeding, intended initially to help the owners of my new pups (I am very lucky that so far I have managed to home every single one of my pups with familys who are happy to feed RAW!!!) However, I found I was getting a lot of interest and questions from people all over the world about the RAW diet and so I have devised some (hopefully) useful guides with pictures which have been really well received on facebook. I thought I would share the links to my guides here and hopefully some of you might find them useful too!

The first 2 links open on a page with multiple pictures, click on the first image to begin the guide (each pic has its on info written alongside) The other links open with a single image, click on the double ended arrow at the top right of the image (where it says 'open photo viewer' when you hover over it) to open the whole 'guide' (each guide has a number of pages)

RAW Diet - Making the Switch
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...903.1073741860.134011846787624&type=1&theater

RAW Diet - Meat, Bones, Offal & Other Goodies
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.148798775308931.1073741849.134011846787624&type=3

RAW Diet - Veg Prep & Anti-Parasitic Herbs
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.148290282026447.1073741846.134011846787624&type=3

RAW Diet - Adult Weekly Menu
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...961.1073741854.134011846787624&type=1&theater

RAW Diet - Weekly Puppy Menu
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...528.1073741852.134011846787624&type=1&theater

RAW Diet - Low Protein & Kidney Supportive Menu
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...565.1073741855.134011846787624&type=1&theater

RAW Diet - Game Prep
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...230.1073741856.134011846787624&type=1&theater

xxxxxx


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## suespoon

Can't thank you enough for all this info. I am so new (compared with you!)at this raw feeding, but I would love to share a photo of Lola that I took yesterday. It brings a whole new meaning to the raw food diet! I just tried to upload it but i probably didn't do it right! As you can tell, I'm not that good at forum etiquette either!!! Cheers.


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## suespoon

Forgot to add - she caught this in our tiny stream - and we didn't even know there were any fish in it! We have lived here for 20 years!!


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## dnlbwls

after reading 50 odd pages ive decide to go as raw as i can
ordered tom lonsdale's book "work wonders"
had a word with my vet who is totally against it the usual liver can't process protein etc
ive been getting this for 20 years as an ex powerlifter and now diabetic(due to crap in our food,coka cola need banning but like everything else they are too big).
back on topic scooby is a 7 month old jrt
lovely lad
i tried him on cesars which he liked(chicken carrots and rice),only small amount of rice and carrots,plus kibble he was on then i popped up on this forum(i do remember reading a comment on raw vs barf on another rfuk as i keep snakes also).
anyway i know a butcher we got pet mice and massive marrowbones were free, he had a chew this morning 
since weve had him a month now we did put tuna on his kibble as he wasn't eating but in 3 week hes put on .7k
have just got some wainwrights also will try him on that as due to stupid vets heads all over, i'll read this book
someone on here mentioned there vet was hollistic,any more info on the vets thoughts at all(way too much to read),i know butchers meat will be better which is no problem as theyre up the road and a top trade to public guys
just curious about barf diets pre packed nutrition or complete raw,sorry if things seem confused they are lol,just want the best for him
anyway thanks guys


----------



## princesssaskia

dnlbwls said:


> after reading 50 odd pages ive decide to go as raw as i can
> ordered tom lonsdale's book "work wonders"
> had a word with my vet who is totally against it the usual liver can't process protein etc
> ive been getting this for 20 years as an ex powerlifter and now diabetic(due to crap in our food,coka cola need banning but like everything else they are too big).
> back on topic scooby is a 7 month old jrt
> lovely lad
> i tried him on cesars which he liked(chicken carrots and rice),only small amount of rice and carrots,plus kibble he was on then i popped up on this forum(i do remember reading a comment on raw vs barf on another rfuk as i keep snakes also).
> anyway i know a butcher we got pet mice and massive marrowbones were free, he had a chew this morning
> since weve had him a month now we did put tuna on his kibble as he wasn't eating but in 3 week hes put on .7k
> have just got some wainwrights also will try him on that as due to stupid vets heads all over, i'll read this book
> someone on here mentioned there vet was hollistic,any more info on the vets thoughts at all(way too much to read),i know butchers meat will be better which is no problem as theyre up the road and a top trade to public guys
> just curious about barf diets pre packed nutrition or complete raw,sorry if things seem confused they are lol,just want the best for him
> anyway thanks guys


Hiya, welcome, its great you are interested in RAW but your post is a little confusing!

experienced RAW / BARf / Prey Model feeders like myself usually spend a great deal of time reasurring people that feeding a more natural way does not have to be too complicated (or expensive) and that there is no need to obsessively weigh everything etc etc HOWEVER, in order to ensure your dog gets all the vital nutrients he needs, including a correct balance of phosphorous and calcium, it is important to understand some basics. You cant just add a load of different meats (with no bone) or random cans of tuna to things as this will not provide a balanced diet (sorry this is beginning to sound a bit preachy, im not meaning to attack you at all, i just want you to be sure to understand that there are a few basic rules to follow)

There are lots of experienced people and helpful info on this thread, but for what its worth i have helped a lot of people switch their dogs to RAW with a simple step by step process - i have now made this into an easy to follow guide with pictures, it may help you to take a look https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...903.1073741860.134011846787624&type=1&theater xxxxx


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## dnlbwls

i don't think your having a go to be honest,
and thanks i shall look
he does eat cold chicken breast but has to be cut up
the tuna was basically to get him to eat at first he's only had small amounts 3 weeks ago now.
as i said i am reading tom lonsdales book when i can but have looked at the bone in minces and thought to try them plus did notice the veg pod things on the other site, i have looked around oh he has had a few nibbles of carrot so probably knows to add veg to food himself but i will order things then start from there
thank you


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## Roodog

This is such a fantastic resource, thank you to all who have given such brilliant information here! In my next life I want to come back as one of "princesssaskia's" bullys!

We switched to raw 5 days ago and it's all going brilliantly. I just wanted to check that my girl only pooping once every other day since we started this week is nothing to worry about? She's not straining or uncomfortable and I'm not particularly worried yet just don't want to find out it's something I should have checked out earlier!


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## princesssaskia

Roodog said:


> This is such a fantastic resource, thank you to all who have given such brilliant information here! In my next life I want to come back as one of "princesssaskia's" bullys!
> 
> We switched to raw 5 days ago and it's all going brilliantly. I just wanted to check that my girl only pooping once every other day since we started this week is nothing to worry about? She's not straining or uncomfortable and I'm not particularly worried just don't want to find out it's something I should have checked out earlier!


Since you have only just switched, her body will still be adjusting to the new diet and in the process of detoxing. Ideally your dog should poop everyday, mine all poop once in the morn and once in the eve. RAW poops are usually multicoloured or darkish brown and small well formed firm pellets. Sometimes they can be encased in a bit of slimy mucous, this is perfectly normal but they should not have blood in them. If she is not straining and constipated, the poops are not consistently really chalky and white OR very runny or bloody and she is eating and drinking well then I wouldnt worry about it too much. Keep an eye on her, the poops should become more regular pretty soon.

What are you feeding ? and how many times a day? how old is your dog?


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## Roodog

princesssaskia said:


> What are you feeding ? and how many times a day? how old is your dog?


We've started on chicken, she's getting two meals a day, the breakfast meal is a small meal of chicken chunks (100g) with a tbsp of probiotic yogurt and tea is either more chunks with veg or a chicken leg 3 x a week (approx 250g)

She's 15kg so we've started at the lower end of the grams she might need, maybe that would also mean less poop? It's a fairly good consistency, holds it shape but is a bit slimy round the outside like you mention, it's also orangey brown but I've read this is due to diet being made up solely of chicken at the moment. Certainly no blood in it, nor is it white.

And she's a two year old Staffy Cross (probably with Whippet)

Thanks for your help sounds like I'll just keep an eye on her and hopefully as she gets used to it and we add tripe next week she'll go a bit more frequently.


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## princesssaskia

Roodog said:


> We've started on chicken, she's getting two meals a day, the breakfast meal is a small meal of chicken chunks (100g) with a tbsp of probiotic yogurt and tea is either more chunks with veg or a chicken leg 3 x a week (approx 250g)
> 
> She's 15kg so we've started at the lower end of the grams she might need, maybe that would also mean less poop? It's a fairly good consistency, holds it shape but is a bit slimy round the outside like you mention, it's also orangey brown but I've read this is due to diet being made up solely of chicken at the moment. Certainly no blood in it, nor is it white.
> 
> And she's a two year old Staffy Cross (probably with Whippet)
> 
> Thanks for your help sounds like I'll just keep an eye on her and hopefully as she gets used to it and we add tripe next week she'll go a bit more frequently.


Hiya
yes, now that she is happily eating RAW chicken and a bit of veg, start adding in some other meats - ideally you want to aim for a minimum of 4 meats a week

Personally I feed a lot more meaty bone - this doesnt mean you feed loads of bone, if you feed chicken/duck or turkey wings then you are getting a good balance of meat and bone. I feed minced meat or minced carcass in the morning mixed through the veg and then some form of meaty bones every eve

as a rough guide i have devised an example weekly menu for an adult dog that i use for a lot of my clients https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...961.1073741854.134011846787624&type=1&theater

xxx


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## Roodog

That facebook link is really useful for menu ideas, thank you!

She actually is getting more bone this week now, that first week I think I worked out the bone to be at the lowest 10% of the diet so thought it was a good starting point she's now getting four chicken legs a week which is 15% and is pooping healthily, 1-2 a day. I think she could deal with the full 20% of bone now she's getting used to it so will look to add more into the diet. Sorry for all the percentages I'm a bit hung up on numbers at the moment! Nervous beginner and all that  

I'm so thrilled with the diet and so is she! Can't wait to add all the stuff I've seen on your FB! Beef is next to get some red meat into the menu and soon we'll be getting a spare freezer so I can order some interesting stuff online!


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## SacredWolf

princesssaskia said:


> Hiya
> 
> as a rough guide i have devised an example weekly menu for an adult dog that i use for a lot of my clients https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...961.1073741854.134011846787624&type=1&theater
> 
> xxx


Brilliant links, think all 7 of your RAW facebook pages should be made into sticky's, really think it helps people starting out :yesnod: have you thought of copying the info with the photos on to a RAW FB page? People could search RAW and find a page dedicated to feeding RAW, although I do love EBT so your doggy photos are an absolute bonus


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## kats56

Hi I am so glad I found this thread. I have a 7 year old lab who suffers from Colitis and over the last 6 months has had many bad flare ups. I have been reading a lot on nutrition as I am having problems finding something that agrees with him and came across the raw food diet. I am really interested in trying this for Buster and have been reading everything I can on the subject.
This thread has been very informative and I think all you guys who post advice on here are brilliant.
I have learned a lot just by reading the different posts and keep going back over the posts as I want to know what I'm doing before I try it and also if I can afford it as on a tight budget.
However DAF are not far from us and their prices don't seem too bad.
Just one thing I can't make my mind up about and that is whether to feed just raw meat and bone or add veg.
At the moment my poor lad is just on Tuna and pasta which is not a good diet to stay on for long but we put him on it after his last bout until his stomach had healed.
I am sure I can count on you to give some of your invaluable advice.


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## kats56

Meant to say he is on Tuna and pasta and cooked chicken and pasta.


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## SacredWolf

Hey kats! This is a great forum for advice. I'd say DAF are convenient and you will be pushed to find another supplier to the north east. but they're a little expensive compared toother raw food providers. The cheapest way is to buy the mince which has meat bone and offal (at 50-75p/pound depending on the main meat source ie chicken is cheap lamb is not) and source anything else you can from local butchers. I'm struggling with sourcing to be honest :-( I've also been told that DAF might be a bit low on the liver so I've started supplementing that myself. pups get a trotter day once a week (£1.31 for two at DAF).


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## kats56

Hey sacredwolf
I think that I would probably supplement the diet with offal myself as its a small part of the diet. As for local butchers...well to be perfectly honest we only have Morrisons but I am going to ask them if they have anything I could purchase cheaply. May as well try. 
I am thinking that I am going to start off by giving him one meal of raw chicken first to see if he can tolerate it, I do so want to get him on a diet that will him poor chap! When he has a flare up its not nice at all.
I still have a full sack of dry food but I'm frightened to put him back on it at the moment as his poo is just back to being solid after his last flare up 3 weeks ago.
Do you think if I just gave him one meal a day (he is currently on 2) of raw chicken it would break him in gently?
I do appreciate all your advice. &#128522;


----------



## princesssaskia

kats56 said:


> Hey sacredwolf
> I think that I would probably supplement the diet with offal myself as its a small part of the diet. As for local butchers...well to be perfectly honest we only have Morrisons but I am going to ask them if they have anything I could purchase cheaply. May as well try.
> I am thinking that I am going to start off by giving him one meal of raw chicken first to see if he can tolerate it, I do so want to get him on a diet that will him poor chap! When he has a flare up its not nice at all.
> I still have a full sack of dry food but I'm frightened to put him back on it at the moment as his poo is just back to being solid after his last flare up 3 weeks ago.
> Do you think if I just gave him one meal a day (he is currently on 2) of raw chicken it would break him in gently?
> I do appreciate all your advice. 😊


Hi sweetie, its great that you have discovered a RAW diet, it really can be a turning point for lots of dogs suffering with stomach or bowel conditions, which are typically aggravated by the type and quality of ingredients in commercial food.

You have made a start already with the tuna and chicken and pasta - I appreciate that you are new to RAW and probably a bit daunted at first, its common for people to begin as you have, however, this is really not a good thing to be feeding. The pasta is a grain of course and dogs are NOT designed to process grain, it acts as a glue in their system, clogging them up and actually preventing them from digesting nutrients properly, it can also be VERY aggravating to the bowel, which is particularly relevant in our case. Im guessing if you are feeding cooked chicken and tuna then you are not feeding any bone? Your dog MUST eat bone, he will become sick if you do not include this in his diet.

Since your dog has a sensitive tum, I would NOT suggest feeding him just one meal a day, or feeding him a whole RAW chicken meal in one go. I help a lot of people to switch dogs of all ages and conditions to RAW and I have found the best way in most cases is a gentle transition. You also mention that its hard where you live to find a supplier. The supplier I use for all my new RAW clients is called Manifold Valley Meats (Pet Food Prices & Deliveries » Manifold Valley Meats), they deliver nationwide and offer a wide range of meats (including chicken, turkey, lamb, beef, rabbit, pheasant, game, tripe and combinations of these) most of the meats include bone and sometimes offal too (look for the ones that say minced 'whole' or minced 'carcass') they come packed in convenient 1/2 kilo sausages and cost on average just 70p each! I would highly recommend you buy some of these, then read my 'making the switch' guide https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...903.1073741860.134011846787624&type=1&theater

I always include veg/fruit in my dogs diet as it provides vital nutrients and fibre (remember that all veg matter should be partially broken down first so that the dog can digest it properly - achieve this by lightly cooking and blending or juicing). Since your dog has a sensitive belly I would hold off on the offal and egg and fish to begin with and concentrate on feeding a variety of minced meat/bone with veg first. The next step is to try and get him eating whole RAW bone, chicken necks and wings are a good place to start, though turkey and duck necks/wings are good too.

On a final note I would say that dogs with sensitive digestion sometimes never thrive on completely RAW food, you may find that it suits your dog best to feed him some or all of his food lightly cooked (this is still tons better than feeding commercial food) Some of my clients dogs eat their mince and veg cooked and their whole bones RAW, others have to have all their food cooked (in these cases they eat only minced bone as whole bones should not be fed cooked) Obviously its better for your dogs health if he can manage at least a little whole RAW bone so do try him on it. Also, remember that sensitive dogs may react to certain meats. One of my bullys is super sensitive, she can not eat any dairy or yeast and she can not tolerate chicken, beef or too much rich red meat like pigeon or venison, she thrives on rabbit, lamb, pheasant, turkey, duck and partridge

I wish you the best of luck and please ask away if you have any questions xxx


----------



## kats56

Hi there princesssaskia 
Thanks for the info, I think I knew the pasta wasn't very good for him but that is what the vet told us to give him when he had a flare up, that or rice.
Anyway now I have found out about the raw diet and read loads about it I think I have found the best thing for him.
Tonight he had his first chicken quarter and he loved it, just waiting to see if it agrees with him or not.
Hopefully it'll be all good from now on.


----------



## kats56

Another question.....lol
We usually go away in our caravan with our lab Buster and I'm wondering how I would feed him while away. We usually just take his dry food in a bin. Do you think it would be ok for him to have that while on holiday and go straight back on raw when we come home?
thanks for all your help your all aazing and I am loving reading about your experiences.


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## suespoon

I suppose it depends on how long you are away. Just returned from a week in our motorhome, and we took a couple of Natural Instinct ( or any pre-prepared) food as well as our own pre-prepared food in bags. If you are away for longer you could always go to a local butchers too. But I am sure it doesn't really matter. Knowing my dog, the most important thing is being fed!!! Good luck, and have a good holiday.


----------



## princesssaskia

kats56 said:


> Another question.....lol
> We usually go away in our caravan with our lab Buster and I'm wondering how I would feed him while away. We usually just take his dry food in a bin. Do you think it would be ok for him to have that while on holiday and go straight back on raw when we come home?
> thanks for all your help your all aazing and I am loving reading about your experiences.


Hi sweetie, in your case ABSOLUTELY DONT go back to feeding kibble or any other dry food whilst you are away - to suddenly change a dogs food is never a great idea, especially for one with a sensitive tum! at best you can expect lots of smelly gas, runny smelly poo and maybe often vomiting too, at worst you can give him cramps and colic!

My partner and i love to go caravaning and always take our dogs with us to enjoy walking in new places so i do understand your situation - of course its a lot easier if you have an electric hook up (even though caravan fridge is small, we bought one of those plug in electric cool boxes for the dogs food) but of course sometimes you have no electric or you are going away for a week or longer and simply cant store that much RAW food whether you have a fridge or not!

I usually take at least 3 or 4 days RAW food with me - keep it really simple, some minces and some veg (already portioned up in packets) feed this for the first few days - on the last day, if it smells a bit, sometimes i just lightly cook it before feeding, wont do dog any harm!

You can also feed a couple of cans of fish - though oviously not too much, so this would only really tide you over for a couple of meals over a week or 2

As suespoon said you can buy a load of packs of natural instinct or something similar, this stuff is not too bad, its still processed and not what i call real RAW food (it doesnt even need to be kept refrigerated!) but at least it doesnt have any nasties or grain in it and its good as a holiday standby - i usually feed this when i run out of my own RAW food but I always try to supplement it with a bith of real RAW meaty bones from local butcher or supermarket - you can get chicken wings pretty much anywhere, even if you may have to pay a little more than you do back home!

xxxx


----------



## kats56

Well after giving Buster his first raw food (chicken quarter) on Tuesday night, yesterday he had diarrhoea which was like water so we fasted him then this morning he has been sick and there was a few small lumps of bone in it and more diarrhoea. I want to persevere with the raw food but my DH is not so sure.
Is this a normal reaction or not and what would you advise me to do? 
Thanks again for your help.


----------



## Nicky10

kats56 said:


> Another question.....lol
> We usually go away in our caravan with our lab Buster and I'm wondering how I would feed him while away. We usually just take his dry food in a bin. Do you think it would be ok for him to have that while on holiday and go straight back on raw when we come home?
> thanks for all your help your all aazing and I am loving reading about your experiences.


It depends on how long you'll be away for, a few days and you can put it in a cool box and it should stay good. Otherwise you can get freeze dried raw. With a dog that has a sensitive stomach switching from the food he's used to will just cause more upset.


----------



## Nicky10

kats56 said:


> Well after giving Buster his first raw food (chicken quarter) on Tuesday night, yesterday he had diarrhoea which was like water so we fasted him then this morning he has been sick and there was a few small lumps of bone in it and more diarrhoea. I want to persevere with the raw food but my DH is not so sure.
> Is this a normal reaction or not and what would you advise me to do?
> Thanks again for your help.


Some dogs do get a bit sick at first and it might be that he can't tolerate chicken. Did you check the sodium level of the chicken? Often supermarket chicken is enhanced and it can cause trouble with their digestive system.


----------



## Frollie

Hello,

I hope I'm posting this in the right place and I apologise if it has been discussed before but I'm browsing on my phone and I would take an age to go through everything. 

So, I'm currently switching my dog over from Bakers but a full raw diet is not feasible in my house. My question is, is there anything that I can give him alongside his dry food (Eden now), which would give him some of the many benefits raw diets seem to have? I know it obviously won't be anywhere near the same as feeding full raw, but I really want to do the best for him that I can.


----------



## princesssaskia

kats56 said:


> Well after giving Buster his first raw food (chicken quarter) on Tuesday night, yesterday he had diarrhoea which was like water so we fasted him then this morning he has been sick and there was a few small lumps of bone in it and more diarrhoea. I want to persevere with the raw food but my DH is not so sure.
> Is this a normal reaction or not and what would you advise me to do?
> Thanks again for your help.


Hiya

I think you really need to go slowly with this! As I said in my earlier post, dogs with sensitive digestion are easily upset and its not really a good idea to just give them a great big lump of RAW chicken in one go. Its also not a great idea to fast a dog with a sensitive tum.

Please do stick at it, going back to commercial pet food is not going to do your boy any favours. However, and again as I said before, it may be that a completely RAW diet will never suit him, in which case a lightly cooked home prepared diet is a very good alternative

PLEASE read my 'making the switch guide' https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...903.1073741860.134011846787624&type=1&theater I help people everyday switching their dogs to RAW (or home cooked) and many of my clients find this guide very helpful

It would really be a good idea to just start with simple minced carcasses (which include meat and minced bone) and mix this with a little veg and lightly cook it at first. Over a period of a week, maybe even longer in your case, you can gradually cook it less and less until it is RAW. Providing he handles this ok, then start adding in whole RAW bones like chicken wings

A lot of people new to RAW make the mistake of feeding great big chunks of bone and then are worried when their dog is sick or poos and they see undigested bone in it. A dog that has eaten kibble for many years (or one with digestive issues) will have an unbalanced digestive system and may take a little while to adjust to breaking down bone, this is why i recommend feeding minced carcasses to begin with

xxx


----------



## kats56

Thanks princesssaskia that sounds like really good advice. I will have a read of your guide first but everything you have said makes sense. Buster is still having diarrhoea although its only small amount now, he seems fine in himself and there is no blood in it. It could be that it is just one of his flare ups and nothing to do with the change of diet but I am erring on caution and going to take things very slowly.
Thanks again for all the good advice.


----------



## princesssaskia

Frollie said:


> Hello,
> 
> I hope I'm posting this in the right place and I apologise if it has been discussed before but I'm browsing on my phone and I would take an age to go through everything.
> 
> So, I'm currently switching my dog over from Bakers but a full raw diet is not feasible in my house. My question is, is there anything that I can give him alongside his dry food (Eden now), which would give him some of the many benefits raw diets seem to have? I know it obviously won't be anywhere near the same as feeding full raw, but I really want to do the best for him that I can.


Hello Sweetie
Let me begin by asking why a RAW diet is not feasible in your house?

I do understand that many people are worried about bacteria or wrestling with huge chunks of meat or gutting whole animals etc etc, its enough to terrify some people, especially if you are squeamish. However, it is possible to feed a RAW diet these days without loads of mess or fuss.

I recommend all my new feeders start off on simple packs of minced carcass - I buy them from a great company which delivers nationwide (1 day a month) and has a great range. Pet Food Prices & Deliveries » Manifold Valley Meats
Most of the minces include bone (so if you really dont want to feed whole bones you dont have to) and they come in neatly packed half kilo sausages which you simply pop in the freezer an defrost as much as you need each day. i recommend mixing a little blended fruit/veg through this mince - you can buy easy packs of pre blended frozen veg nuggets from big pet stores, a well known brand is natures menu, or you can have a go at making your own mix, which is very economical, I have a guide that tells you step by step how https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...447.1073741846.134011846787624&type=1&theater

In an ideal world you would feed the mince and veg in the morning and then some whole chicken / duck or turkey wings in the evening, wings are easy to store and not messy to feed and will keep your dogs teeth and gums very healthy. If you really dont want to feed any whole bone then feed mince morning and eve but make sure you feed minced CARCASS otherwise your dog will not get sufficient bone - please be aware that prize choice minces and many of the other minces sold in pet shops DO NOT contain sufficient bone for a healthy balanced diet when fed alone

Make sure you are feeding at least 4 different meats a week (whether mince or wings) and that will be fine. You can also add a bit of offal (chopped liver or kidney is best), an egg or 2 and a can of oily fish each week. If you feed all this YOU DO NOT need to feed supplements, or any commercial pet food!

If you do not have the freezer space to store mince and insist on feeding dry food (which personally i think is the worst thing you can ever feed your dog - better to feed tinned meat than kibble which is full of salt, sugar, additives, chemicals, grain and highly processed - dont be fooled, even the expensive brands are of poor nutritional value) Then you can improve his diet a bit by adding a bit of chopped offal, n egg or 2 and a couple of cans of oily fish to his food each week. You can also feed him some RAW chicken/duck or turkey wings now and then - but please bear in mind that dogs eat kibble very differently to RAW bones. Kibble is simply wolfed down and takes no effort (thats why it fails to clean the dogs teeth and exercise his jaw) bones on the other hand, need to be chewed, the dog that has spent a lifetime on kibble needs to take time to learn how to do this and to strengthen his jaw - you should hold onto the wings and help him to get the idea. I have another good guide called 'making the switch to RAW' which shows you how to do this is you wish to take a look https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...903.1073741860.134011846787624&type=1&theater

I and others on this site are always happy to help if you have any questions, but i would urge you to commit fully to RAW as its upsetting for a dogs digestion to be fed half kibble half RAW xxx


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## kats56

Hi again
How soon on the switchover to raw can you introduce raw egg? Will it make my dog a bit looser in the poop department? Lol


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## princesssaskia

kats56 said:


> Hi again
> How soon on the switchover to raw can you introduce raw egg? Will it make my dog a bit looser in the poop department? Lol


Hiya, eggs are a fab addition to a RAW diet, they are full of vitamins and minerals as well as A grade protein - try and make sure you feed organic eggs if possible

1 or 2 eggs a week is sufficient

Provided your dog is now happily eating his mince RAW (mixed through veg) without any signs of loose stools, then its fine to start adding in things like offal, fish or egg - Do them one at a time, with a few days grace inbetween as all 3 are very rich!

Once your dogs stomach has adapted to eating the RAW mince (whether or not you are feeding whole RAW bones in the eve as well, or simply minced meat and minced bone) then he should be fine with an egg - it can only really causes upset if .........

a) you feed it too soon, ie in the first 1 or 2 days before the dog has even had a chance to get used to RAW mince

b) you feed it together with loads of other rich things like fish or offal

c) the dog has an intolerance of eggs (this is pretty rare but can happen, if your dog continues to have an upset belly after feeding egg then he may be sensitive to it, in which case dont feed it!

If you want to be super careful then introduce the egg by cooking it lightly the first time and then eventually feed it RAW - though remember its most nutritious when fed RAW

To be honest though most dogs can handle a RAW egg within a week of switching to RAW! :biggrin: You should not have a problem with loose stools when feeding egg if you introduce it after a week of RAW feeding

Remember to crush the shell up and add that to the food too as the shell is full of calcium!


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## kats56

Thanks I'll wait till next week to add it as just taking it gently with him. He's had a lot of tummy issues the last couple of weeks so I'm just giving him chicken at the moment, I started with it very lightly cooked and I'm gradually cooking it less. I added a couple of teaspoons of pumpkin to it and he seems to be coping fine. First proper poo yesterday although tiny, he's had terrible diarrhoea for days before that so I was over the moon.
My hubby is not keen to go with the raw meat but I am hoping when he sees how much better he is on it (eventually) he will change his mind!
How soon would you introduce tripe into his diet? There is a store at my shopes that sells minced tripe.
It is just convenience at the moment as I will go to DAF once I see he is ok with the diet.


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## kats56

Well everything is still going well with the new diet. Buster is on 100% raw since this morning and no ill effects as yet. going to try him with a chicken quarter tomorrow to see how he copes. But so far so good!


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## kats56

Day 4 on raw meat for Buster, he's had chicken chunks for breakfast and he's having chicken chunks and chicken wings for dinner. Hope he's ok with the wings! I'll keep you updated.


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## kats56

Gave Buster chicken wings for tea and kept hold of them so he would chew them but he managed to pull the last bit out of my hand and just swallowed it! He's such a hoover lol. Hope he's ok tonight.
He's really enjoying his food but he seems to have no energy and he is only doing one really tiny poo a day, is this normal?


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## StormyKnight

Hi everyone,
OMG, I can't believe it, but I have finally managed to read through all 135 pages of this thread! There is some amazing information, and most of it has been extremely helpful! Tom Lonsdale's book Work Wonders has also been extremely useful, and I have now started reading Tom Lonsdale's book Raw Meaty Bones. I believe I have done quite a bit of research, also have spent time reading things from people who are against raw feeding, and am aware of the "dangers", and think the best way to further learn is to jump right in and have a go at feeding raw.

I am planning on changing my dogs from CSJ dog food, to raw, as I think they would thrive on the raw diet much more than any dry dog food! I am getting rather excited about changing them over :biggrin: , which most of my friends think I'm rather sad! We are going out tomorrow to buy a chest freezer (150L which I do hope will be big enough to freeze 7-10 days worth of food) and will be putting my first order in for some raw meat to be delivered this week!
I have 4 dogs, 3 Golden Retrievers, Hamish 12 years, Merlin 4 years and Storm 21 months, and a Patterdale Terrier Jet who's 6,5 years old.

I would just like to run my plans past the very knowledgeable people on this thread, and would be very grateful for any advice. 

I am planning on buying chicken chunks and chicken carcasses to begin with, starting with feeding the chicken chunks first for maybe a day or two and then moving onto feeding chicken chunks along with some chicken carcasses.
My first order will be from DAF, I have got green tripe and beef bones from them before and was very satisfied with these. I have contacted TPMS animal feeds for a price list, however no one has got back to me as yet. Also tried contacting the dog food company via email, to see whether or not they deliver to the north east of England, but again, no reply yet.  

Many thanks for any replies!


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## StormyKnight

Hi everyone,
don't know what's happened, but I have just written a rather long post and clicked submit, when I checked it didn't appear on the thread.
So I guess, here I go again. lol 

Wow, I can't believe I have finally managed to read all 135 pages of this great thread. I have found the information on here very useful and informative! I would say I have done a fair bit of research, more to be done, not only reading on here, but also reading any links that people have posted on here, also Tom Lonsdale's book Work Wonders and have now started on his other book, Raw Meaty bones. I have also had a look into the negatives of feeding a raw meaty bones diet, so am aware of the "dangers". Mind I do think a lot of it is common sense for some of the things.

I have 4 dogs, 3 Golden Retrievers, Hamish 12 years, Merlin 4 years and Storm 21 months, and a Patterdale terrier Jet who's 6,5 years old.

They are currently on CSJ dog food, and I just can't wait to start them on RAW, which I do think they will thrive on!
We are going out tomorrow to get a chest freezer (150Litres, which I hope will be big enough to store 7-10 days worth of food, or is that wishful thinking?).
I am then placing my first order to DAF, since none of the other companies that I have tried contacting have gotten back to me yet as to whether or not they deliver to the north east of England, which include the animal food company and TPMS. I have had beef bones and green tripe from DAF before and have found their quality very good. 

I would like to run my plan by the very knowledgeable people on this forum as to how I will change them over. 
My first order will be chicken chunks and chicken carcasses and maybe some chicken wings for Jet. I will start feeding chicken chunks for the first day or two and see how they take to it, then feed them chicken chunks along with chicken carcasses for a week and see how it goes. If all is well, I will then move onto a different type of meat in my next order along with the chicken.
The goldie boys will each be eating about 800-900g a day each, so I will just see how they each go, as for Jet, he will be getting quite a bit less compared to the big boys! Apart from Storm, the others aren't greedy and will stop eating when they are full, so that should hopefully be a good indicator. However I do know not to overfeed them should they become greedy when eating raw.

I have been to one of my local butchers, who are unfortunately unable to supply me with any scraps or carcasses or bones. However they have given me the name and address of a caterers butcher, who is also only about 10 minutes from us, and who I will be going to see in the next few days, to see if I can get anything off them on a regular basis!

I look forward to any replies! Many thanks to everyone who contributed to this very useful thread so far!


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## kats56

Hi Stormyknight welcome to raw feeding! I am also new to it and my lab Buster 8yrs old has been on chicken chunks and wings for 6 days now and is doing great, he loves it! I gave him an egg in with his chicken tonight and he wouldn't stop licking his bowl! lol
I am just trying to work out how much food I will need to last a fortnight so that I can order some. It has been quite expensive doing it by buying from supermarket but I wanted to see if he was ok on it before ordering a large amount.
Whereabouts are you in the north east? I was going to order from DAF but have just found another supplier who is cheaper and delivers free at the moment. This is the link:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Just-Meat-and-Pet-Supplies/513558755348440


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## StormyKnight

Hi Kats56,
thanks for welcoming me! 
I really can't wait to start my 4 boys on raw! I really think they will thrive on it!
What I forgot to write in my last post, is that the boys are used to things like green tripe, raw beef bones, raw eggs, natural live yogurt, tinned mackerels, sardines and tuna. 

I'm also wondering what peoples' experience is with changing over dogs that are as old as my boy Hamish? Does it just depend on the individual dog?

We're in Middlesbrough. Whereabouts are you located? yes I have seen the meat suppliers that you posted the link to. Would be also worth asking on here, if any one has had any experience with them.

thanks again.


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## kats56

Sounds as if your halfway there if your boys are already eating such a variety. I don't know about your Hamish, my Buster is 8 and has had issues with his tummy since we rescued him 5 years ago. He has collitis and has had some awful flare ups recently. In fact the 2 weeks before we changed him to raw he was quite poorly with it and had diarrhoea constantly but since changing over it has cleared up. I am just keeping my fingers crossed that this diet is going to help his condition.
As for 'Justmeat and pet food' I have seen a lot of good feedback on facebook so I am putting an order in this week. I'll let you know what I think.
Good luck I think your dogs will love the diet.


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## SacredWolf

Hi StormyKnight! This thread had been fantastic for me! I'm also buying from DAF (I live 10 minutes away from them) and I'm happy with their supply. I do know that our Southern friends are a bit more lucky with the prices so I try hard to source what I can for free. May I ask about the caterers? Also thanks Kats56 for the Just Meat and Supplies link, I'll check them out too! 

Kim


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## kats56

Well its a week since we changed Buster over to raw food and have had him on chicken all week with the addition of some chicken wings which I bashed with a mallet before feeding and held them so he could crunch the bone (and my hand! lol) As I've said before he has had a lot of problems with collitis and I am anxious to find something to ease it.....hence trying this way of eating. 
All week he has been so lethargic, no energy at all. His poos have been small but solid which is a big improvement. So last night me in my wisdom thought I would give him an egg with his supper, as usual he loved his food and ate it all. Today after my husband took him for his walk he says he has had really bad diarrhoea again! Would it be the egg that has caused this?


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## DirtyGertie

Not sure how big Buster is but my Poppy is 5.5kg and I can't give her a whole raw egg, definitely makes her poo sloppy. She's fine with scrambled egg (which she's had occasionally when not well) but I'd say I could only get away with half a raw egg with her so I don't give it very often.


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## kats56

Hi DirtyGertie
Buster is a lab and about 37kg. I will try him again later this week but will just give half an egg at first.


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## princesssaskia

kats56 said:


> Well its a week since we changed Buster over to raw food and have had him on chicken all week with the addition of some chicken wings which I bashed with a mallet before feeding and held them so he could crunch the bone (and my hand! lol) As I've said before he has had a lot of problems with collitis and I am anxious to find something to ease it.....hence trying this way of eating.
> All week he has been so lethargic, no energy at all. His poos have been small but solid which is a big improvement. So last night me in my wisdom thought I would give him an egg with his supper, as usual he loved his food and ate it all. Today after my husband took him for his walk he says he has had really bad diarrhoea again! Would it be the egg that has caused this?


Hi Kat, glad things seem to be going well, good on you for persevering, it will come good in the end!

My advice for now would be to forget about eggs, offal and fish completely, though they are packed with great nutrients and essential oils, both these can be very upsetting for a delicate tum! You are feeding a lot of chicken, so i would really concentrate on feeding some different meats, remember what i said before, you should aim to feed at least 4 different meats a week

Are you feeding some pre blended veg daily? like i said before you can buy packets of frozen veg nuggets by natures menu in pet stores or even better make up your own as per my veg prep guide - see earlier post for the link (or ask me to repost link)

concentrate on feeding different minced meats or minced carcasses mixed with veg in the morning and then large bone in chunks of meat in the eve - if you are mostly feeding chicken in the eve for your bone in meals (ie chicken wings, chicken quarters, chicken thighs, chicken backs etc etc) then feed OTHER minced meats in the morning - other bone in meats suitable for the eve would be turkey or duck wings, lamb or pork ribs, as well as whole game like pheasant, rabbit etc

i would really wait until he is eating happily RAW for at least a month, maybe even 2 before you start worrying about eggs, fish, offal etc - these things are important but his body needs time to adjust and strengthen. Taking myself as an example, before i first discovered natural remedies and the importance of balance, fresh, organic nutritious food, i had tons of food allergies - but over the years as i have eaten properly, my body has become stronger and i can now tolerate lots of things (like eggs!!!) that i couldnt before, you may find this is the case with your dog

I would also suggest you look online at amazon or something and buy yourself a really good pet probiotic (like this one Amazon.com: Probiotic Miracle Dog Probiotics for Dogs (360 servings): Pet Supplies) and a natural seaweed based all round vit/min supplement, this will give him a good boost and help to strengthen his system - remember to buy the best quality, least synthesised supplements that you can - i use Seagreens® Pet Granules : Oceans of Goodness

he may be tired as his body is having a lot of adjusting to do, and it will also be detoxing which is tiring for him, make sure he has LOTs of clean water to drink - it would also help his liver and kidney to drink parsley water (this aids those organs in their filtration of toxins as his body detoxes) simple pour boiling water over a handful of parsley, cover in clingfilm and leave to cool, then remove the parsley and give him the water to drink!

keep up the good wok and keep us posted on his progress xxxx


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## princesssaskia

StormyKnight said:


> Hi Kats56,
> thanks for welcoming me!
> I really can't wait to start my 4 boys on raw! I really think they will thrive on it!
> What I forgot to write in my last post, is that the boys are used to things like green tripe, raw beef bones, raw eggs, natural live yogurt, tinned mackerels, sardines and tuna.
> 
> I'm also wondering what peoples' experience is with changing over dogs that are as old as my boy Hamish? Does it just depend on the individual dog?
> 
> We're in Middlesbrough. Whereabouts are you located? yes I have seen the meat suppliers that you posted the link to. Would be also worth asking on here, if any one has had any experience with them.
> 
> thanks again.


hi Stormy, welcome to the thread

Its fab that your dogs are eating fish, eggs, beef bones and tripe already etc, it makes perfect sense to go the whole hog and commit to a completely RAW diet!

In answer to your question about switching your older dog Hamish, you are correct in guessing its down to the individual, some older dogs never accept a fully RAW diet but are happy with a partially cooked home prepared one, which is still tons better than pet food - but other older dogs are happy to eat completely RAW

I would highly recommend you read my 'RAW Diet making the switch' facebook guide, which (on one of the later pages) tells you about switching an older dog https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...903.1073741860.134011846787624&type=1&theater

As for suppliers I use a great company called Manifold Valley Meats, they deliver nationwide once every month and they have a fantastic range, not many online companies offer so many different minces, including chicken, turkey, lamb tripe, beef tripe, duck, venison, lamb, beef, pheasant, rabbit, game and many combinations of these! Also its one of the few places which offers minced carcasses, which is fab when you are weaning pups onto RAW which are obviously too small to eat bones or if you have a dog which wont eat whole bones! There website is Pet Food Prices & Deliveries » Manifold Valley Meats

xxxxxxxxxxxx


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## kats56

Well my lab Buster has been on raw food for a fortnight and is doing fine. I am getting my first delivery from a supplier tomorrow. 
The thing is as I said earlier we are going away camping in a weeks time and I have taken all your suggestions on board. However there are no facilities at the campsite for us to store frozen and I couldn't afford the freeze dried. We are not near enough to a big town to enable us to shop daily for meat.
I have been looking at the hypoallergenic drieds food and wondered what you thought if I were to take that away with us. Would this harm him. I am gutted that I did this when we are going away, I wish now I'd waited till we had come home :-(


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## Nicky10

If you're only going away for a few days you can put the meat in a cool box.


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## kats56

Going for 2 weeks


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## StormyKnight

Hi again everyone,
thanks for all your warm welcomes!
We had to postpone the start of the raw diet for a little bit, only by a couple of weeks. Had to buy another bag of dog food, so will start once they have eaten that.

SacredWolf, I googled caterers butches near Middlesbrough, and it's actually brought a few up.

The other thing I meant to post was a link to another meat supplier I have been told about by a friend. They Love It Dog Food
Their stuff looks really good, and a few of the things I have looked at, are cheaper than DAF. The only downside I can find is that it all comes in large portions!

How many kg's do you think I will fit in a 150Litre freezer?

princesssaskia, I have already had a look at your facebook sites before I joined this forum! They are very useful! Great work!

I am almost surprised to see how many suppliers of raw meat for dogs there are out there! So much choice, it's brilliant! Am looking forward to trying them all out!

Many thanks again to all of you!
Marion


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## princesssaskia

StormyKnight said:


> Hi again everyone,
> 
> I am almost surprised to see how many suppliers of raw meat for dogs there are out there! So much choice, it's brilliant! Am looking forward to trying them all out!


I have said this before guys but I think its worth mentioning again - yes there are lots of suppliers out there and whilst i appreciate that not everyone lives in an area where there is a lot of choice and that for some economics are an important factor, it is worth remembering that the quality of meat you buy is very important!

Meat that comes from intensively reared animals does not make good eating for your dog. This meat is typically laden with toxins because the animals it came from were given routine antibiotics and vaccinations to keep them from getting sick becasue they were reared in a high stress unantural environment, in many cases intensively reared animals are also fed hormones and growth promoters, which is absorbed by their flesh, god only knows what havoc that reeks on the humans or dogs that then consume that flesh!

Many companies actively promote their products as 'human grade' or 'free range', whilst this may sound attractive it is, in my opinion, pretty useless! What passes as fit for human consumption these days is questionable at best, i certainly wont eat anything less than organic or at the very least local 'proper' free range meat! If you research what is allowed to be called 'free range' these days you will be horrified, i have personally visited 'free range' chicken farms and found them to be a far cry from the image free range conjours of a happy animal outdoors (these chickens for example, range 'free' in a barn with mesh flooring, that stinks of excrement, they are fed a seriously lacking diet and they have access to range a small bare yard through a tiny door, the birds are crammed in and though they can 'range' many are obviously too miserable to do so and less than 15% go outdoors at all - as i was told by this particular farmer who raises free range chickens for sainsburys!)

Dont get me wrong, i certainly cant afford to feed my dogs purely organic meat! However, I do make a point of sourcing my meat from local reliable farms (where i have personally seen the welfare of the animals it comes from) or ifrom my local game keeper (as game lives a happy free, pretty much organic life) or I buy it online from companies that use only 'real' free range or wild meat. It takes a bit of time to build up a good list of suppliers but its well worth doing!

You have to remember that RAW dogs are eating a diet made up largely of meat, so it follows that the quality of this meat will impact on their health! Its not only the toxins that you have to worry about but, if you are interested in energy medicine as i am, then there are deeper implications. Food energists believe that everything you eat that was once 'alive' contains energy - the fresher and healthier the plant/animal was when harvested/slaughtered the more potent its energy, thus the better for the thing consuming it - this is literally the foundation for 'you are what you eat'. Furthermore, the theory goes that if the animal being eaten had a poor or miserable quality of life, it will have suffered from depression or negativity in some shape or form, this negative energy is absorbed by the cells in its body and in turn are absorbed (all be it to a lesser degree) by the human or dog that eats their meat! This may sound crazy to some but I assure you food energetics is a serious and worthy subject - it certainly changed the way i ate food and the way i feed all my animals and i have to say our health is all the better for it!!!!


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## Debz65

Hello....I've just gone from wainwrights kibble to a grain free salmon and potato sensitive (Simpsons), and have started to introduce some raw chicken necks as well. Maggie takes the bone very excited does about 10 turns outside in the grass, drops the bone and stares at it, an occasional lick, looks up at me, as if she doesn't know what to do with, licks it again, and then might start gently eating it.....is this normal, because she's not used to it? Thanks!!


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## missRV

I don't want to start a new thread but I'm wondering if it's acceptable to give Rosie one raw meal a week or every few days? I'd like to try her on a chicken wing just to see how she does. She's on Millies Wolfheart so a high quality diet anyway, would she be Ok to have a wing once a week? As a treat and to clean her teeth? Would it unsettle her tummy to have too much variety?


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## Ponies78

Ok, I'm quite squeamish about meat, but want to add healthy variety to my pups meals. I have no freezer, just that little shelf in the fridge, so will not be switching farm his kibble. 
I've noticed an egg in some meals? Could I add a raw egg to kibble? What else could I get from a supermarket to add as a one off, not too messy or gross!?


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## Goldstar

missRV said:


> I don't want to start a new thread but I'm wondering if it's acceptable to give Rosie one raw meal a week or every few days? I'd like to try her on a chicken wing just to see how she does. She's on Millies Wolfheart so a high quality diet anyway, would she be Ok to have a wing once a week? As a treat and to clean her teeth? Would it unsettle her tummy to have too much variety?


It will be fine to give a few raw wings a week


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## Goldstar

Ponies78 said:


> Ok, I'm quite squeamish about meat, but want to add healthy variety to my pups meals. I have no freezer, just that little shelf in the fridge, so will not be switching farm his kibble.
> I've noticed an egg in some meals? Could I add a raw egg to kibble? What else could I get from a supermarket to add as a one off, not too messy or gross!?


I'm not sure about adding raw egg with kibble if I'm honest. Never really thought about it. Maybe you could pick up a poussin now and then, only teeny tiny and easy to chop up. I get one occasionally if on offer. Or maybe some lamb bones (Morrisons sell small packs sometimes with 2-3 bones in. Usually under 50p too.


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## princesssaskia

Debz65 said:


> Hello....I've just gone from wainwrights kibble to a grain free salmon and potato sensitive (Simpsons), and have started to introduce some raw chicken necks as well. Maggie takes the bone very excited does about 10 turns outside in the grass, drops the bone and stares at it, an occasional lick, looks up at me, as if she doesn't know what to do with, licks it again, and then might start gently eating it.....is this normal, because she's not used to it? Thanks!!


ha ha ha yes this is perfectly normal!!! she is telling you she is very happy and excited about this new 'real' food - if i were you i would take her cue and continue feeding her as much RAW food as possible. You have already made a positive step switching to a grain free kibble and chicken necks are a great bone to start with!

Remember though, no matter how expensive the kibble its still heat treated, highly processed and lacking in nutrients and substance! You would be much better feeding her mince and veg, supplemented with bones - you can progress to turkey/chicken or duck wings once she is happily eating the necks

Good Luck xxxxxxxxxxxx


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## princesssaskia

missRV said:


> I don't want to start a new thread but I'm wondering if it's acceptable to give Rosie one raw meal a week or every few days? I'd like to try her on a chicken wing just to see how she does. She's on Millies Wolfheart so a high quality diet anyway, would she be Ok to have a wing once a week? As a treat and to clean her teeth? Would it unsettle her tummy to have too much variety?


On the one hand, feeding a tiny bit of RAW food or bones is better than feeding none at all - since RAW food is packed with nutrients seriously leacking in manufactured food

However, you must be careful with some breeds, older dogs or those with sensitive tums - switching between commercial food and RAW food can cause tummy upsets ranging from loose stools, to full blown diarrhoea, vomitting and cramps - my intention is not to scare anyone off, just to be aware that chopping and changing the diet willy nilly is not a great idea with commercially fed animals - interestingly dogs fed a completely RAW diet have much stronger, healthier systems and can tolerate, in fact benefit, from eating a wide variety of RAW nutritious foods!

The reason that feeding RAW can cause upset to a dog used to kibble or cooked pet meat is because it is full of bacteria and vital energy - this is no problem for a dog with a healthy digestive tract but it can be over whelming for a dog whose system has become sluggish and compounded by years of a commercial diet

The other reason feeding RAW bones to a kibble fed dog can be an issue is because RAW bones require careful chewing, unlike kibble which is sloppy mush and wolfed down - a dog not used to chewing its food can easily choke on a bone

However, it all comes down to the individual dog and their owner. You know you dog best, so if you think they can handle a RAW bone or 2 a week on top of a kibble based diet, then go for it - at least you will be giving them a highly nutritious treat and keeping their teeth and gums clean!


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## princesssaskia

Ponies78 said:


> Ok, I'm quite squeamish about meat, but want to add healthy variety to my pups meals. I have no freezer, just that little shelf in the fridge, so will not be switching farm his kibble.
> I've noticed an egg in some meals? Could I add a raw egg to kibble? What else could I get from a supermarket to add as a one off, not too messy or gross!?


Ok, little rant first, not personal so please dont be offended - owners must accept that if they choose to care for an animal, then they have an obligation to look after it to the best of their ability and this should include feeding that animal a species appropriate diet! I was avegetarian for over 10 years, today I still only eat fish and organic chicken and am positively repulsed at the taste of red meat HOWEVER this does not stop me from feeding my dogs a whole range of different meats, after all this is what they are designed to eat and who am i to deny them!

I do understand that some people are squeamish and certainly many of my new clients are at first horrified to see me gutting rabbits, hacking the heads off birds and wrestling with lumps of offal oozing blood!!!!! but as i always tell and show them, it is possible to feed a RAW diet without too much mess or effort. I start all my new puppy owners or new clients out on simply minced carcass and veg in the mornings (both come in nice simply packs that are easy to handle and feed, simply tip the mince and veg into the dogs bowl, stir and serve ! Then in the evenings you simply feed a few chicken wings, again once your dog has the hang of it, its not messy for you, all you do is open the packet of chicken wings and tip the required amount into his dish!!!!!

if you want you can carry on feeding your dog mince, veg and wings forever and his diet would be vastly improved compared to a kibble based one and there would be limited mess for you!

If however, you cant even bring yourself to do this, then you can add the following things to improve a kibble based diet............

- An ORGANIC egg or 2 each week - RAW if your dog can tolerate it, otherwise lightly cooked

- A tin or 2 of oily fish like sardines or mackerel (in olive oil, sunflower oil or spring water NOT ketchup!)

- A pet probiotic

- A seaweed based multi vitamin, such as 'seagreens pet granules'

- A little bit of chopped ORGANIC liver or kidney twice a week (cooked if you cant handle feeding it RAW)

- A daily tablespoon of ORGANIC apple cyder vinegar OR a small clove of crushed ORGANIC garlic (both have digestive benefits and will also halp to ward off parasites)

- Another great thing to feed pups is RAW (unpasturised) ORGANIC goats milk, highly nutritious though can be difficult to get hold of, i buy mine online from a farm in Devon


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## Ponies78

Raw diet is completely new to me. I have given a raw chicken drumstick tonight, I did try to cut it smaller but my knives are woefully inadequate. Some pictures show the egg complete with shell. So I can just pop a raw egg in his bowl?


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## missRV

Thanks for the excellent info 

I've just given her a bowl of kibble with a raw egg cracked inside to mix it.... she's loving it! 

I'm going to get her a chicken wing tomorrow to try. Really dumb question but do I hold it for her while she eats? Should I let her eat the bone for the first time? Or would she be better with a fillet or mince?


----------



## princesssaskia

missRV said:


> Thanks for the excellent info
> 
> I've just given her a bowl of kibble with a raw egg cracked inside to mix it.... she's loving it!
> 
> I'm going to get her a chicken wing tomorrow to try. Really dumb question but do I hold it for her while she eats? Should I let her eat the bone for the first time? Or would she be better with a fillet or mince?


Not a dumb question at all!!!! In most cases (provided the dog is calm enough) it is a VERY good idea to hold onto the bone when feeding for the first time. I instruct all my new puppy owners and first time RAW feeders to hold onto bones when first feeding them, until the dog gets the hang of chewing it

The best thing to do is to make the dog sit and then hold the bone firmly (chicken or duck wings are best), you should aim to position the bone at the side of the dogs mouth by the back teeth - this is because the teeth at the back are designed for crunching up the bone whereas the teeth at the front are for ripping and tearing. Positioning the bone at the side of the mouth also prevents the dog from trying to 'gulp' it down in one mouthful!

Continue holding the bones until you feel the dog has got the hang of crunching it up and is doing so easily. Remember dogs that have been kibble fed for many years typically have weak jaws and can take time to crunch up bones. The next step is to let the dog manage by himself. For smaller breeds this means simply letting go of the chicken wing and letting them manage alone. For larger breeds or dogs that are very 'eager' (and thus risk gulping the whole wing down without chewing) it is usually a good idea to give them a whole small chicken carcass. The reason for this is simple, if the dog cant fit the whole thing in its mouth then it cant swallow it whole, instead it is forced to tear bits off and chew!

NEVER leave a dog unattended when eating bones. All my dogs are experienced at eating a variety of bones, even the pups can devour whole chicken wings by themselves from the age of just 6weeks! However, I make sure im always about to supervise when they are eating their bones

My 'RAW Diet - Making the Switch' guide explains the process of switching a kibble fed dog to a RAW diet safely in great detail, including pictures of how to hold the bone in the dogs mouth, if you want to have a look https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...903.1073741860.134011846787624&type=1&theater


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## princesssaskia

Ponies78 said:


> Raw diet is completely new to me. I have given a raw chicken drumstick tonight, I did try to cut it smaller but my knives are woefully inadequate. Some pictures show the egg complete with shell. So I can just pop a raw egg in his bowl?


Drumsticks are ok for larger dogs but sometimes they have quite a chunky bone in the middle of them which might be a bit tough for a young or small breed dog

Personally I would stick to feeding necks or wings to begin with, then move onto thighs, drums and whole carcasses or chicken backs

Rather than cutting up the bone, hold it and encourage your dog to chew it, see my guide for info and pic on how to do this https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...903.1073741860.134011846787624&type=1&theater

As for the egg, yes, the shell is full of calcium so its good to feed, You can either crush it up and mix through the rest of the meal along with the egg OR you can give the dog the whole egg to play with! My dogs, especially the puppies, love to roll the egg around before pouncing on it and squashing it flat and then devouring the whole thing!


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## Hugo12345

Hi all, thank you for all the helpful advice on feeding raw. I have a 13 week black lab which is on dry food at the moment but as an original believer in "Dogs are Wolves" I was keen to learn about feeding raw.
Following various paths originating from this forum, I am convinced that feeding raw IS beneficent to a dogs health and well being. However, being a man of science and a firm believer in "everything in moderation", I will continue to feed high quality dry food alongside raw food to ensure a full compliment of vitamins and minerals needed for a breed with specific needs.
In researching feeding raw, I'm sure most of you have come across Robert Wayne. I have checked this thread for similar articles to the ones linked below and appologise if these have already been discussed, in any case they are worth a read when considering the differences between a Wolfs diet and the diet of the domesticated Dog.

Starchy diet may have transformed wolves to dogs | Genes & Cells | Science News

Dog's dinner was key to domestication : Nature News & Comment


----------



## Goblin

Hugo12345 said:


> I have checked this thread for similar articles to the ones linked below and appologise if these have already been discussed, in any case they are worth a read when considering the differences between a Wolfs diet and the diet of the domesticated Dog.


Not in this thread but has been discussed.. What is the actual conclusion? It's not dogs need junk and thrive on it, it's dogs are more adaptable and able to scavenge better to survive 

Iams did a study in 2001 although I haven't got a copy of it as it's not listed in the article I found, by IAMS a dog food company, on their website. It talks about senior dog diets. What does it say?



> Adult and senior dogs were fed diets with varying amounts of protein from chicken and corn gluten meal, and their body composition (muscle versus fat tissue) was analyzed. In addition, levels of key blood and muscle proteins were measured.
> 
> Compared with dogs fed a diet with 100% chicken protein, dogs fed diets with decreasing levels of chicken and increasing levels of corn gluten meal had
> 
> 
> decreased lean tissue
> increased body fat
> decreased levels of blood proteins routinely used as markers of superior nutritional status
> 
> This was independent of the overall dietary protein level (12 or 28%), which was also examined in each of the four test groups.
> 
> As dogs age, body composition and muscle-specific proteins decline. Therefore, another study looked at the differences between feeding senior dogs a 32%-protein chicken-based diet, a 32%-protein chicken and corn gluten meal diet, or a 16%-protein chicken-based diet.
> 
> Senior dogs fed the 32%-chicken protein, chicken-based diet had better body composition and a muscle-specific protein pattern identical to that in healthy young adult dogs. However, those results were not seen in either of the other two diets.


Personally I'd love to actually find out the details of that study and the methods involved.

Of course if you want to go the science route, also look into the work of a Dr. Kollath in Stockholm. He headed a study done on animals although he was looking at human nutrition. When young animals, including dogs were fed cooked and processed foods they initially appeared to be healthy. As the animals reached adulthood however, they began to age more quickly than normal and also developed chronic degenerative disease symptoms. A control group of animals raised on raw foods aged less quickly and were free of degenerative disease for a lot longer.


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## Guest

Organic food is expensive you will be forgiven for feeding none organic :>

Chunks of meat are good for dogs I reckon their more nutrious then minces but I have all ways believed in feeding animals species apropriate diets. Meat is a species appropriate diet for dogs kibble/wet food is not.

Its up to the owner what they choose to put in their dogs bowl as long as its a healthy hearty meal and the dog does well on it.


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## princesssaskia

Hugo12345 said:


> However, being a man of science and a firm believer in "everything in moderation", I will continue to feed high quality dry food alongside raw food to ensure a full compliment of vitamins and minerals needed for a breed with specific needs.[/url]


In my humble opinion there IS no such thing as a 'high quality dry food'! All dry foods are highly processed and have been heat treated to such an extent that many of the vitamins and minerals that are legally allowed to be listed on the packaging (becuase at some point in the manufacturing process they were present) are often rendered useless or undigestable to the dog! (a lovely advertising loophole!)

I fully appreciate that specific breeds have specific needs, but feeding a VARIED RAW diet - this means a minimum of 4 different types of meat per week, not just junks of chicken or a low quality mince, PLUS regular inclusion of whole, raw organic eggs, organic offal including liver and kidney, tinned or fresh oily fish and a variety of pre blended fruit and veg - will include all the vitamins and minerals your dog requires - in specific cases you can top up the vitamin/mineral content using natural (NOT synthesised) supplements such as camu camu (pure vitamin c) or seaweed etc etc

In fact SCIENCE has proved that vitamins and minerals derived from real, fresh WHOLE foods - as opposed to synthetic vitamins typically added to pet foods - are MUCH easier for an animal (or person) to digest and provide greater health benefits!

Food for thought (if you pardon the pun!) xxx


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## StormyKnight

Hi Everyone,
been a while since I've been on here!
Today we have finally taken the plunge! The boys are officially RMB-fed dogs! No more dry dog food for these boys! 
This morning they had some chicken drumsticks. The 3 golden retrievers each got 6 drumsticks and our Patterdale Terrier got 2.
They went down really well. They chewed them all properly and there was no greediness ect. What a beautiful sound it is, to hear them crunching through the bones, makes you realize that all that time on dry dog food, they never used their teeth! 

Tonight the boys have had chicken legs fresh from the butchers. One leg for each of the golden retrievers and a couple of chicken wings for the terrier.
I had my worries about how our 12 year old goldie would take to being fed raw meats and bones. But he has put my mind at rest, he got stuck in straight away, he looked a bit confused at first, but then ate both meals!

So far nothing has come out the back end. It might sound disgusting and weird, but am looking forward to seeing what comes out! lol

Chicken legs/wings again for tomorrow! 

have a nice evening everyone! and thanks for all the help via this forum!
take care, Marion


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## StormyKnight

Hi everyone, me again!

Right, where do I start. Well all 4 of my boys are doing great on the raw chicken legs. Chicken wings for the terrier. 
They all seemed a little constipated at first, of so I thought. But everything working brilliantly now! There is soooooo much LESS to pick up on our walks now! I LOVE IT! This RMB is amazing!

My next question now is, what meat do I introduce next? I've spoken to a few fellow golden retriever owners and they have said their dogs tend to become loose when they have lamb meats including bones, however seem alright on minced lamb which includes bones. Hope that made sense. lol

I have a few pieces of ox tail in the freezer, but should I start them on this?
What would be a good second meat to introduce?

Well hope you all have a nice weekend.
Marion


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## princesssaskia

StormyKnight said:


> Hi everyone, me again!
> 
> Right, where do I start. Well all 4 of my boys are doing great on the raw chicken legs. Chicken wings for the terrier.
> They all seemed a little constipated at first, of so I thought. But everything working brilliantly now! There is soooooo much LESS to pick up on our walks now! I LOVE IT! This RMB is amazing!
> 
> My next question now is, what meat do I introduce next? I've spoken to a few fellow golden retriever owners and they have said their dogs tend to become loose when they have lamb meats including bones, however seem alright on minced lamb which includes bones. Hope that made sense. lol
> 
> I have a few pieces of ox tail in the freezer, but should I start them on this?
> What would be a good second meat to introduce?
> 
> Well hope you all have a nice weekend.
> Marion


Hiya! Fantastic news! You are right to start thinking about introducing other meats, ideally you should aim to feed at least 4 different meats per week

Personally, the most important factor for me is 'quality'. You want to buy the best meat you can source, feeding cheap intensively farmed meat is not a good idea

I favour a lot of game, if you cant get hold of whole game then the company *Manifold Valley Meats* has a fantastic range of minced game (which includes minced bone) at very reasonable prices - you can find them online and they deliver monthly

Personally I feed chicken, duck, turkey, lamb, pheasant, lamb tripe, hare, pigeon, venison, partridge and rabbit - i steer clear of pork and beef just because i find it hard to buy quality pork/beef at affordable prices and many of my dogs are sensitive to them anyway!

I do feed ox heart as well - its a great 'meaty' meal to balance out a big bone meal!

lamb would be a good meat to try next i should think - feed ribs or minced its up to you - you could also try lamb tripe

xxxxx


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## Frollie

princesssaskia said:


> Hello Sweetie
> Let me begin by asking why a RAW diet is not feasible in your house?
> 
> I do understand that many people are worried about bacteria or wrestling with huge chunks of meat or gutting whole animals etc etc, its enough to terrify some people, especially if you are squeamish. However, it is possible to feed a RAW diet these days without loads of mess or fuss.
> 
> I recommend all my new feeders start off on simple packs of minced carcass - I buy them from a great company which delivers nationwide (1 day a month) and has a great range. Pet Food Prices & Deliveries » Manifold Valley Meats
> Most of the minces include bone (so if you really dont want to feed whole bones you dont have to) and they come in neatly packed half kilo sausages which you simply pop in the freezer an defrost as much as you need each day. i recommend mixing a little blended fruit/veg through this mince - you can buy easy packs of pre blended frozen veg nuggets from big pet stores, a well known brand is natures menu, or you can have a go at making your own mix, which is very economical, I have a guide that tells you step by step how https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...447.1073741846.134011846787624&type=1&theater
> 
> In an ideal world you would feed the mince and veg in the morning and then some whole chicken / duck or turkey wings in the evening, wings are easy to store and not messy to feed and will keep your dogs teeth and gums very healthy. If you really dont want to feed any whole bone then feed mince morning and eve but make sure you feed minced CARCASS otherwise your dog will not get sufficient bone - please be aware that prize choice minces and many of the other minces sold in pet shops DO NOT contain sufficient bone for a healthy balanced diet when fed alone
> 
> Make sure you are feeding at least 4 different meats a week (whether mince or wings) and that will be fine. You can also add a bit of offal (chopped liver or kidney is best), an egg or 2 and a can of oily fish each week. If you feed all this YOU DO NOT need to feed supplements, or any commercial pet food!
> 
> If you do not have the freezer space to store mince and insist on feeding dry food (which personally i think is the worst thing you can ever feed your dog - better to feed tinned meat than kibble which is full of salt, sugar, additives, chemicals, grain and highly processed - dont be fooled, even the expensive brands are of poor nutritional value) Then you can improve his diet a bit by adding a bit of chopped offal, n egg or 2 and a couple of cans of oily fish to his food each week. You can also feed him some RAW chicken/duck or turkey wings now and then - but please bear in mind that dogs eat kibble very differently to RAW bones. Kibble is simply wolfed down and takes no effort (thats why it fails to clean the dogs teeth and exercise his jaw) bones on the other hand, need to be chewed, the dog that has spent a lifetime on kibble needs to take time to learn how to do this and to strengthen his jaw - you should hold onto the wings and help him to get the idea. I have another good guide called 'making the switch to RAW' which shows you how to do this is you wish to take a look https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...903.1073741860.134011846787624&type=1&theater
> 
> I and others on this site are always happy to help if you have any questions, but i would urge you to commit fully to RAW as its upsetting for a dogs digestion to be fed half kibble half RAW xxx


Hi, sorry, only just seen this reply. Think my post took ages to be moderator approved and I forgot all about it.

Raw isn't feasible in my house because my dad and his girlfriend just really wouldn't be okay with it. They're also not the kind of people who are willing to listen to logic and reason - believe me I've tried. If I was at home full time I'd just go ahead and feed him Raw myself as I could probably wangle it if I was the one sorting everything out, but sadly I'm away at uni during term time. Hopefully Ollie will be coming to live with me full time from next September when I (hopefully) have my own house but for now I'm just trying to give him the best possible diet under the current circumstances.

At the moment Ollie has either Applaws or Lily's Kitchen wet food for dinner, Eden for lunch and a 'home-cooked' breakfast. This breakfast generally consists of things I've made from the Lily's Kitchen cookbook, such as the fishcakes. I tend to make things in bulk and freeze so my family can just take a portion out each night for his breakfast the next morning. Problem is we don't have a huge amount of freezer space so I'm kind of limited in how much I can make and freeze. Often the food runs out before I'm home again to make the next batch and my family revert to feeding him pasta and Bernard Matthews chicken slices for breakfast, which is obviously not a good regular meal.

So what I'm looking for basically is something Ollie can be fed for breakfast which is good for him but also 'easy' for my family to feed. I was thinking the Natures Menu chicken nuggets might be good as they can also be bought quite easily from our local PaH but now I've seen that they're not great quality-wise so I'm not sure what the best option is.

I'm also trying to get my sister to give him a raw chicken wing on weekend mornings but it's going to take some convincing.


----------



## Gemmaa

Frollie said:


> Hi, sorry, only just seen this reply. Think my post took ages to be moderator approved and I forgot all about it.
> 
> Raw isn't feasible in my house because my dad and his girlfriend just really wouldn't be okay with it. They're also not the kind of people who are willing to listen to logic and reason - believe me I've tried. If I was at home full time I'd just go ahead and feed him Raw myself as I could probably wangle it if I was the one sorting everything out, but sadly I'm away at uni during term time. Hopefully Ollie will be coming to live with me full time from next September when I (hopefully) have my own house but for now I'm just trying to give him the best possible diet under the current circumstances.
> 
> At the moment Ollie has either Applaws or Lily's Kitchen wet food for dinner, Eden for lunch and a 'home-cooked' breakfast. This breakfast generally consists of things I've made from the Lily's Kitchen cookbook, such as the fishcakes. I tend to make things in bulk and freeze so my family can just take a portion out each night for his breakfast the next morning. Problem is we don't have a huge amount of freezer space so I'm kind of limited in how much I can make and freeze. Often the food runs out before I'm home again to make the next batch and my family revert to feeding him pasta and Bernard Matthews chicken slices for breakfast, which is obviously not a good regular meal.
> 
> So what I'm looking for basically is something Ollie can be fed for breakfast which is good for him but also 'easy' for my family to feed. I was thinking the Natures Menu chicken nuggets might be good as they can also be bought quite easily from our local PaH but now I've seen that they're not great quality-wise so I'm not sure what the best option is.
> 
> I'm also trying to get my sister to give him a raw chicken wing on weekend mornings but it's going to take some convincing.


I've just seen a dehydrated raw food, you just add water. Might be worth a look.
What We Do

I've just found this one as well: K9 Natural UK :: K9 Natural Freeze Dried

I haven't looked at them in great detail though.


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## StormyKnight

Thanks for your reply.

I'm a little apprehensive about trying lamb, especially with bone, because I had given lamb ribs before to mine as a treat, when they were still fed on dry dog food, and they all ended up getting the worst diarrhea I have ever seen. My youngest, I had to make a trip to the emergency vets, as he ended up squirting blood out of his back end! It was aweful.

Other golden retriever owners I have spoken to, that also feed raw, have said that lamb bones make their dogs loose as well. 

So I'm a bit worried about giving lamb and lamb bones! 

I've just ordered our freezer, which will be delivered on Wednesday, so now I just have to decide where I'm going to order from, what I'm going to order and HOW MUCH!?

Any more advice would be greatly appreciated, and maybe something to put my mind at ease a bit about feeding lamb/lamb bones.


----------



## rainy

WOW this is such fab indepth info cheers. Been raw feeding my two dogs for around 2 weeks, they love it/ I will be printing this out tomoro thanks :thumbup:


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## MrsGiggles

Really thinking about feeding raw to bernie,even though he's on a good quality food,I think he would really enjoy it,iam hopin it would calm his puppy ways too lol and of course his smelly poos,I did ask the breeder about raw and she looked at me with disgust but when he was coming home,she gave me a sample of food and a pack of frozen natures mince  I thought,well that's raw! 
What to do.........what to do lol


----------



## princesssaskia

MrsGiggles said:


> Really thinking about feeding raw to bernie,even though he's on a good quality food,I think he would really enjoy it,iam hopin it would calm his puppy ways too lol and of course his smelly poos,I did ask the breeder about raw and she looked at me with disgust but when he was coming home,she gave me a sample of food and a pack of frozen natures mince  I thought,well that's raw!
> What to do.........what to do lol


Hiya What are you currently feeding him, the natures mince?

My advice would be, if you are already thinking about it anyway, then go for it! Pups are the easiest to switch as they are all so greedy that they take to it quickly and if you feed them a good variety of stuff (breaking them in slowly at first of course) whilst they are young, then they will happily eat anything you put in front of them as an adult!

You dont have to launch into RAW bones at first - though remember whole bones will serve to exercise the jaw, and keep the teeth and gums in tip top condition - You can begin though, by simply feeding a good quality minced carcass. Minced carcass is different to standard minces in that it includes sufficient bone of course, its worth noting that many of the pet shop minces do not provide adequate bone (for calcium and other vitamins and minerals)

I always recommend my clients begin by simply feeding the minced carcass mixed with blended fruit/veg twice daily (or 3 times in a pup below 6 months) You can buy frozen nuggets of pre-blended veg in large pet stores or you can make your own - I have written a guide that explains how https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.148290282026447.1073741846.134011846787624&type=3

If your pup is already eating the RAW natures mince, then you can go ahead and feed the minced carcass RAW. If however, your pup is currently eating cooked meat or kibble then I recommend lightly cooking the minced carcass at first, gradually cooking it less and less until you are feeding it RAW by about day 5.

Once your pup is happily eating this, then you can add in a few tins of oily fish, a bit of liver/kidney and an egg or 2 each week

the next step is to add in whole bones - chicken wings/necks are a great bone to start with

You may also be interested in reading my guide on 'making the switch' whic explains the pros of a RAW diet and also how to introduce bones safely https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...903.1073741860.134011846787624&type=1&theater

Go for it! xxx:wink: xxx


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## princesssaskia

rainy said:


> WOW this is such fab indepth info cheers. Been raw feeding my two dogs for around 2 weeks, they love it/ I will be printing this out tomoro thanks :thumbup:


printing it out? the whole thread? hope you have plenty of paper and ink then :biggrin:

glad you finding the info useful xxxxx


----------



## princesssaskia

StormyKnight said:


> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> I'm a little apprehensive about trying lamb, especially with bone, because I had given lamb ribs before to mine as a treat, when they were still fed on dry dog food, and they all ended up getting the worst diarrhea I have ever seen. My youngest, I had to make a trip to the emergency vets, as he ended up squirting blood out of his back end! It was aweful.
> 
> Other golden retriever owners I have spoken to, that also feed raw, have said that lamb bones make their dogs loose as well.
> 
> So I'm a bit worried about giving lamb and lamb bones!
> 
> I've just ordered our freezer, which will be delivered on Wednesday, so now I just have to decide where I'm going to order from, what I'm going to order and HOW MUCH!?
> 
> Any more advice would be greatly appreciated, and maybe something to put my mind at ease a bit about feeding lamb/lamb bones.


Hiya! ok, if you had just said that _' I had given lamb ribs before to mine as a treat, when they were still fed on dry dog food, and they all ended up getting the worst diarrhea I have ever seen'_ then I would have said that this was purely because the RAW lamb was too much for their system whilst they were still being fed dry food ! However, a big lesson I have learnt with RAW feeding, especially where pedigree dogs are concerned, is that you cant treat them all the same! Some breeds are particularly sensitive to certain foods and of course individual dogs differ too! I dont personally have much experience of labs and retrievers but if you are speaking, not just to any old retriever owner but as you said owners that already feed RAW, and they are all telling you that lamb can be an issue, then I would heed their advice (at least for now) and avoid it, after all there are plenty of other meats to choose from!

Actually dont i remember you saying that those same owners said minced lamb (or i guess lamb tripe) was ok? maybe just feed that instead of lamb ribs and stick to chicken / duck / turkey wings/thighs/carcass for your whole bone meals

its fab you are getting a freezer - trust me it makes a big difference!!!! Im sure i suggested them before, but I really would advise ordering from Manifold Valley Meats if you can, they have a great selection of minces (most including bone) at a great price and its really good quality

I would suggest ordering minced turkey, minced duck, minced game, minced lamb tripe, minced pheasant, minced rabbit etc etc

Have fun! xxxx


----------



## princesssaskia

Frollie said:


> Hi, sorry, only just seen this reply. Think my post took ages to be moderator approved and I forgot all about it.
> 
> Raw isn't feasible in my house because my dad and his girlfriend just really wouldn't be okay with it. They're also not the kind of people who are willing to listen to logic and reason - believe me I've tried. If I was at home full time I'd just go ahead and feed him Raw myself as I could probably wangle it if I was the one sorting everything out, but sadly I'm away at uni during term time. Hopefully Ollie will be coming to live with me full time from next September when I (hopefully) have my own house but for now I'm just trying to give him the best possible diet under the current circumstances.
> 
> At the moment Ollie has either Applaws or Lily's Kitchen wet food for dinner, Eden for lunch and a 'home-cooked' breakfast. This breakfast generally consists of things I've made from the Lily's Kitchen cookbook, such as the fishcakes. I tend to make things in bulk and freeze so my family can just take a portion out each night for his breakfast the next morning. Problem is we don't have a huge amount of freezer space so I'm kind of limited in how much I can make and freeze. Often the food runs out before I'm home again to make the next batch and my family revert to feeding him pasta and Bernard Matthews chicken slices for breakfast, which is obviously not a good regular meal.
> 
> So what I'm looking for basically is something Ollie can be fed for breakfast which is good for him but also 'easy' for my family to feed. I was thinking the Natures Menu chicken nuggets might be good as they can also be bought quite easily from our local PaH but now I've seen that they're not great quality-wise so I'm not sure what the best option is.
> 
> I'm also trying to get my sister to give him a raw chicken wing on weekend mornings but it's going to take some convincing.


oh poor you! It must be very frustrating that your family are not on side! I didnt realise, so i'm sorry if my initial reply seemed harsh!

ok, so you are feeding lillys kitchen etc at present and i understand that this is convenient and better quality than a lot of whats out there! However, these are still cooked and highly processed foods which isnt good

In an ideal world, as i said in my last email, you would feed RAW minced carcass and mixed vag - simply getting a packet of each out the freezer each evening to defrost, then mixing it together and feeding. However, I appreciate that a) your dad and his girlfriend may even have objections with this? and b) you dont have much freezer space!

So, what I propose is this, I would feed the Natural Instinct range - this is pretty good quality RAW meat, its not full of grain, fillers or nasty additives and it comes in a few good choices (including green tripe and duck!) It also includes some fruit and veg and beneficial supplements like kelp etc. Best of all from your point of view is that it doesnt need to be kept in the freezer as its vacuum packed AND it looks very 'normal' so your dad wont be put off feeding it!!!!!!

To improve on this, I would recommend that you add a tin or 2 of sardines or mackerel, an egg or 2 and a bit of RAW chopped liver and kidney each week when you are at home - if you can get your dad to add at least the odd egg or can of fish some days when you are not there then so much the better!

I would NOT recommend that you get your sister or anyone else to feed your dog RAW bones. Dogs that are not used to eating RAW bones need supervising for a good while, personally i never allow anyone else to feed my dogs bones, even my experienced adult dogs who have eaten RAW bones since pups are fed simply minced carcass by my parents in my absence! I would leave the bones until you are around to feed him 24/7

here is the link for natural instinct All Dog Food - Natural Instinct

good luck xxxxx


----------



## MrsGiggles

princesssaskia said:


> Hiya What are you currently feeding him, the natures mince?
> 
> My advice would be, if you are already thinking about it anyway, then go for it! Pups are the easiest to switch as they are all so greedy that they take to it quickly and if you feed them a good variety of stuff (breaking them in slowly at first of course) whilst they are young, then they will happily eat anything you put in front of them as an adult!
> 
> You dont have to launch into RAW bones at first - though remember whole bones will serve to exercise the jaw, and keep the teeth and gums in tip top condition - You can begin though, by simply feeding a good quality minced carcass. Minced carcass is different to standard minces in that it includes sufficient bone of course, its worth noting that many of the pet shop minces do not provide adequate bone (for calcium and other vitamins and minerals)
> 
> I always recommend my clients begin by simply feeding the minced carcass mixed with blended fruit/veg twice daily (or 3 times in a pup below 6 months) You can buy frozen nuggets of pre-blended veg in large pet stores or you can make your own - I have written a guide that explains how https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.148290282026447.1073741846.134011846787624&type=3
> 
> If your pup is already eating the RAW natures mince, then you can go ahead and feed the minced carcass RAW. If however, your pup is currently eating cooked meat or kibble then I recommend lightly cooking the minced carcass at first, gradually cooking it less and less until you are feeding it RAW by about day 5.
> 
> Once your pup is happily eating this, then you can add in a few tins of oily fish, a bit of liver/kidney and an egg or 2 each week
> 
> the next step is to add in whole bones - chicken wings/necks are a great bone to start with
> 
> You may also be interested in reading my guide on 'making the switch' whic explains the pros of a RAW diet and also how to introduce bones safely https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...903.1073741860.134011846787624&type=1&theater
> 
> Go for it! xxx:wink: xxx


Thank you for all of that,at night before he goes to bed,he gets a 1/4 of the natures fish,I tried him on a bit of raw bone what I got from pets at home and he just adored it,the only thing that is holding me back too,is if we go on holiday,camping or even driving to Austria,what would we do then


----------



## Frollie

princesssaskia said:


> oh poor you! It must be very frustrating that your family are not on side! I didnt realise, so i'm sorry if my initial reply seemed harsh!
> 
> ok, so you are feeding lillys kitchen etc at present and i understand that this is convenient and better quality than a lot of whats out there! However, these are still cooked and highly processed foods which isnt good
> 
> In an ideal world, as i said in my last email, you would feed RAW minced carcass and mixed vag - simply getting a packet of each out the freezer each evening to defrost, then mixing it together and feeding. However, I appreciate that a) your dad and his girlfriend may even have objections with this? and b) you dont have much freezer space!
> 
> So, what I propose is this, I would feed the Natural Instinct range - this is pretty good quality RAW meat, its not full of grain, fillers or nasty additives and it comes in a few good choices (including green tripe and duck!) It also includes some fruit and veg and beneficial supplements like kelp etc. Best of all from your point of view is that it doesnt need to be kept in the freezer as its vacuum packed AND it looks very 'normal' so your dad wont be put off feeding it!!!!!!
> 
> To improve on this, I would recommend that you add a tin or 2 of sardines or mackerel, an egg or 2 and a bit of RAW chopped liver and kidney each week when you are at home - if you can get your dad to add at least the odd egg or can of fish some days when you are not there then so much the better!
> 
> I would NOT recommend that you get your sister or anyone else to feed your dog RAW bones. Dogs that are not used to eating RAW bones need supervising for a good while, personally i never allow anyone else to feed my dogs bones, even my experienced adult dogs who have eaten RAW bones since pups are fed simply minced carcass by my parents in my absence! I would leave the bones until you are around to feed him 24/7
> 
> here is the link for natural instinct All Dog Food - Natural Instinct
> 
> good luck xxxxx


Thanks for all the advice. I didn't consider the extra dangers of allowing other to feed raw chicken wings, I definitely won't be doing that then.

I think I might try Natural Instinct, but are you sure they don't need to be frozen. I spoke to one of their staff and she said their products do need to be frozen, so I'm a little confused.

If so, how long does it take to defrost these minces? And do they have to be put in the freezer or just left out?


----------



## princesssaskia

Frollie said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I didn't consider the extra dangers of allowing other to feed raw chicken wings, I definitely won't be doing that then.
> 
> I think I might try Natural Instinct, but are you sure they don't need to be frozen. I spoke to one of their staff and she said their products do need to be frozen, so I'm a little confused.
> 
> If so, how long does it take to defrost these minces? And do they have to be put in the freezer or just left out?


Hiya

If you go into pet stores like 'pets at home' you will see that the natural instinct minces are simply stored on the shelf - there is no need for them to be frozen or even refrigerated, are you sure you are not confusing them with natures menu which do require freezing?!

All frozen minces dont really take that long to defrost, I tend to take mine out the evening before so they defrost overnight, but they should only take a couple of hours at room temp if you wanted to do it during the day - you can also micro wave to defrost of course - though personally i hate microwaves as they destroy the nutritional value of food !


----------



## princesssaskia

MrsGiggles said:


> Thank you for all of that,at night before he goes to bed,he gets a 1/4 of the natures fish,I tried him on a bit of raw bone what I got from pets at home and he just adored it,the only thing that is holding me back too,is if we go on holiday,camping or even driving to Austria,what would we do then


Hiya, dont let that hold you back! It takes a bit of effort but its workable

My partner and I go on holiday in the caravan with the dogs all the time - we have a plug in electric cool box that we use to keep their food in, this usually lasts us a good few days, after this we rely on popping into local butcher or supermarket and buying packs of mince and chicken wings etc etc. Its easy to pack a few eggs and tins of fish for the dog too!

The great thing about RAW feeding is you dont have to be too perfect all the time. When we are camping the dogs have a bit of a limited diet, they dont get their veg every day for example, or a huge range of meat, its just what we can get hold of easily. I tend to compensate a little for this by bringing a natural, seaweed based pet multivitamin like 'seagreens pet granules' (there are others)

Of course, to make things even easier you can feed 'pre packed' RAW food such as 'natural instinct' when you are on holiday - this stuff isnt as good as home prepared RAW but at least its not full of crap and its really easy to store (no refrigeration needed). I use this when I go away for longer than a week - though even then i try to buy chicken wings from somewhere just to 'top it up' at least every other day! (there are other similar pre made RAW foods available)

When im away without the dogs and my parents or house siters look after them, then i simply get them to feed RAW minced carcass (from Manifold Valley Meats - available online) mixed with pre blended veg. I dont expect these people to feed my dogs bones, or wrestle chunks of bloody meat! I simply get them to mix the mince with the veg and feed twice a day, et voila ! easy peasy! However, if you dont think you have anyone happy to do even that, or you are putting your dog in kennels, then you can just get them to feed the natural instinct instead!

Since Natural Instinct is a RAW food, all be it a processed one, It doesnt do any harm to swap to it for a short while and then back to home prepared RAW, though you should be aware that some dogs may need a day or 2 to 'adjust' which could mean a bit of runny poo etc etc - though most dogs will make the transition easily enough - if you plan on doing this its probably worth giving it a 'trial run' to make sure all is ok before leaving someone else to feed your dog natural instinct for the first time!

Dont be tempted to switch from a RAW diet back to kibble or canned cooked meat whilst on holiday though, this can upset a dogs stomach quite a bit with smelly consequences (sometimes worse!)


----------



## StormyKnight

Hi again everyone,

great news! after being quite worried about feeding lamb and lamb bones to my 4 boys, I took the plunge and very gradually introduced lamb into their raw diet. First they each got just one small bone (yes am aware of the risk of feeding a small bone to a large dog, but I made sure they were eaten properly!). then the next day, since all their poos were solid, I gave them each a little more lamb bones, then I added a little bit of lamb mince along with the lamb bones to each raw feed! They all have solid poos and today they are having their first all lamb meal! Lamb bones and lamb mince each! 
I am over the moon that their tummies have taken to the lamb, because I have found a great supply of lamb bones for free from a local butchers! 

All my attempts to source chicken carcasses have been unsuccessful so far, so I'm having to buy them from DAF at the moment.

Here's a list of the things the boys have had so far, chicken carcasses, chicken necks (only for our terrier), chicken and tripe mince, tripe mince, tripe chunks, lamb mince, lamb bones, tinned sardines, natural yogurt, cottage cheese, raw eggs, ox tail pieces (but I've got a lovely surprise for the boys, because I bought whole oxtails from the butchers the other day!), ox liver, and ox heart. 
Think I will be introducing some game soon, maybe some rabbit or pheasant mince. 
I'm wondering about feeding pork, again I could get a great supply from a local butchers, but am wondering, what I need to watch out for when feeding pork? Any advice?

Thanks again for all the advice! I'm also amazed, now that I'm in the raw feeding "club", just how many people are feeding their dogs on raw! 

take care everyone, Marion


----------



## princesssaskia

StormyKnight said:


> Hi again everyone,
> 
> great news! after being quite worried about feeding lamb and lamb bones to my 4 boys, I took the plunge and very gradually introduced lamb into their raw diet. First they each got just one small bone (yes am aware of the risk of feeding a small bone to a large dog, but I made sure they were eaten properly!). then the next day, since all their poos were solid, I gave them each a little more lamb bones, then I added a little bit of lamb mince along with the lamb bones to each raw feed! They all have solid poos and today they are having their first all lamb meal! Lamb bones and lamb mince each!
> I am over the moon that their tummies have taken to the lamb, because I have found a great supply of lamb bones for free from a local butchers!
> 
> All my attempts to source chicken carcasses have been unsuccessful so far, so I'm having to buy them from DAF at the moment.
> 
> Here's a list of the things the boys have had so far, chicken carcasses, chicken necks (only for our terrier), chicken and tripe mince, tripe mince, tripe chunks, lamb mince, lamb bones, tinned sardines, natural yogurt, cottage cheese, raw eggs, ox tail pieces (but I've got a lovely surprise for the boys, because I bought whole oxtails from the butchers the other day!), ox liver, and ox heart.
> Think I will be introducing some game soon, maybe some rabbit or pheasant mince.
> I'm wondering about feeding pork, again I could get a great supply from a local butchers, but am wondering, what I need to watch out for when feeding pork? Any advice?
> 
> Thanks again for all the advice! I'm also amazed, now that I'm in the raw feeding "club", just how many people are feeding their dogs on raw!
> 
> take care everyone, Marion


thats great news!!!! is so good when you can source something for free and it would have been a real shame if you couldnt feed it!!!

Feeding pork is fine, some people say it can be full of parasites (remember there are parasites that live in the muscles and organs as well as the stomach/intestines) however, there are no more in it then in other meats really. The key will all meat is to source the best you can afford. Intensively farmed animals are under more stress than free range or organically farmed animals and so their systems are weaker and more prone to infection and parasites, this is reflected in the quality of the meat they produce

Of course you should also freeze the meat, as cold as possible, for at least 24hrs before defrosting and freezing. Where relevant also remove the stomach and intestines.

Feeding game is great, this is a fantastic time of year to get hold of partridge and pheasant if you have a local gamekeeper or know someone that shoots. I have even been successful putting an ad on ebay asking friends of friends if they know anyone who shoots and can supply me with rabbits and birds (pigeons are good too and always readily available, though they are quite rich so dont feed more than once a week)

Feeding whole game (or portions of whole game if the rabbit/bird is too big to be eaten in one sitting) is more nutritious than feeding a mince, its a complete, perfectly balanced meal in one, supplying meat, bones, connective tissues, organs, blood and fibre in the form of fur/feathers!

If you can get hold of game, whether whole or mince, do bear in mind that it has quite a strong taste, which some dogs take time to get used to - though my bullys ADORE it! The key is either to cook the meat/mince (not the bones) a little first to make it more palatable or to mix it through either chicken or tripe to disguise it a little until they become accustomed to the taste!

You have made a great start and as you say, you are in the RAW club now! From here on its a fun journey of discovery, finding out what you can get hold of and how many different things you can get your dog to eat, variety is great for them and ensures they receive all the nutrients they require

good luck xxxxxx


----------



## Tilldob

I have been feeding my Bullies raw for a couple of months now and they love it,mainly sticking to mince and offal but now im starting to introduce bones,my 9 month old boy as started with duck necks and is doing fine,no gulping and swallowing whole, which was my fear!.
I am just placing my order from DAF and want to add their Big Bag Of Bones to it but not sure what i will get,anyone had these from them? I have also ordered some Chicken carcasses should these be ok?
Princessaskia i have sent you a PM


----------



## princesssaskia

Tilldob said:


> I have been feeding my Bullies raw for a couple of months now and they love it,mainly sticking to mince and offal but now im starting to introduce bones,my 9 month old boy as started with duck necks and is doing fine,no gulping and swallowing whole, which was my fear!.
> I am just placing my order from DAF and want to add their Big Bag Of Bones to it but not sure what i will get,anyone had these from them? I have also ordered some Chicken carcasses should these be ok?
> Princessaskia i have sent you a PM


hiya, yes seen and replied to your private message

re the RAW diet, you dont say which minces you are feeding (is it just one type?) but unless you are feeding a range of different minced meats and they include adequate bone, then your dogs diet will be seriously compromised despite feeding some offal!

You say you are starting to feed bones now, which is fab - I would stick to necks and wings and carcasses at first - feeding whole carcasses may look daunting but is actually safe as the dog can swallow it whole and is forced to tear bits off and chew (which is what you want to teach him to do)

Later on you could progress to lamb and pork bones etc, but personally as a fellow bully owner i would recommend you go down the whole game route if you can source any - particularly whole rabbit and pheasant as bullys thrive on game (if you cant get whole then try minced)

as for the minces, i get mine from Manifold Valley Meats - they deliver nationwide and offer a great variety of minces, good quality, good price and lots of them contain ample bone for a balanced diet. This is the link to their page Prices, Products & Deliveries » Manifold Valley Meats

I would also recommend you add in some blended fruit/veg and some egg and oily fish each week - this is all packed with essential nutrients and particularly important for bullys who need all the help they can get with their skin/coat !!!

I have a page dedicated to RAW feeding, which lists puppy and adult weekly menu ideas that may be of use to you www.facebook.com/feedyourdograw

Always love to have pics of people's dogs eating RAW posted to my page - especially if they are bullys !!!!!!


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## Tilldob

I am feeding Tripe,Rabbit,Chicken,Lamb and Beef minces also heart and Offal i add milled Linseed, Oats, Rice,cooked carrots and cabbage,Potatoes and Yumega.I vary it sometimes rice and oats and sometimes veg.
I have just placed my first order with DAF and amongst other thing have ordered the bag of mixed meats and some spleen.
Do you have a special blender to puree your veg? i know cooked veg has no nutritional value to dogs,i feed it to fill. I have a kenwood blender would that do it do you think?Do you add any other vitamins?Also i show my lad and have been told he needs more weight on him,any tips.
I havent given the older girls any necks or bones they gulp their food to much and im worried they will choke. I have ordered some chicken carcasses so if i feel brave will maybe let them have a go 
Im not on Facebook, my daughter is so when she comes round we will have a look. She has one of the pups,and also feeds raw.
Any advise on the diet will be appreciated.


----------



## SacredWolf

Hi I'm a DAF user! The Big bag of bones are not meaty, more just toys to chew on, their words not mine, not weight bearing bones as they say. bones at DAF prices are extortionate! I just buy the mince, something with liver and something with offal! The DAF minces are 80% meat 10% bone and 10% other i.e. organs. Others have said their weak on their liver contents which need to be 5% of a dogs diet hence why I buy a mince that specifically has liver in it


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## StormyKnight

Hi everyone,
it's been a while since I've posted on here, so I thought, now that I've got a minute, I'd post a little update!

The boys are still loving their raw diet and I couldn't be happier seeing them all enjoy each and every meal they get!

My last supply from DAF consisted of chicken carcasses, chicken and tripe mince and tripe mince and lamb mince. This time I went for other things. I ended up getting, turkey mince, beef meat chunks, chicken meat chunks, beef spleen chunks, pheasant mince and venison mince. 

I now get a steady supply of meaty bones from a local butchers! I can come twice a week they told me, and they will have a collection of stuff. Last week, I received a 6kgs bag of lamb bones , yesterday I got 2 huge beef leg bones! I know leg bones shouldn't be fed because they can break teeth, but these bones had lots of meat still left on them, so the boys enjoyed an afternoon of chewing all the meat off the bones! I also get chicken gizzard from my new favourite butchers. Are those considered offal? They don't look very offal-like to me! Not the deep red colour like liver.

I am also getting rather good at bargain hunting, and I can now be found near the meat section at morrison's, looking for reduced price meats. Last week I ended up coming out with two carrier bags full to the top! Whole ox kidneys, lamb and pork livers!

I do believe that I fed too much bone in the beginning, as our old boy's poo was quite crumbly, which has now gone away! I think I'm starting to get the hang of things!
The only thing I still can't figure out is how much offal! I know 10% but how much is that!? haha If I fed them each a whole ox kidney which is a little bit smaller than a man's fist, would that be their whole offal portion for that week? 

We have also continued feeding them tinned sardines and tuna, natural live yogurt, cottage cheese, raw eggs, ect.

We did have a little scare this week. I took two of the boys for a longer walk in the park and ran into a friend of mine. He always gives all the dogs he meets dog treats! So of course he gave mine some gravy bones! I never even thought that they shouldn't really have them now that they are on raw food! Anyway, our 4 year old goldie seemed a bit under the weather the rest of the day. But my main worry was my 6 1/2 year old Patterdale terrier who went off all his food for 3 meals! so 2 breakfasts and one tea time meal! He eventually passed a stool after 36 hours and was back to his normal self after that! no more normal dog treats for my boys from now on! I haven't been giving them any treats anyway, since we started on the raw, because they are all so satisfied on their 2 meals a day, there's no need! lol
I have now ordered some fish4dogs treats and have bought some treats from Wilkinsons which are dried chicken fillets, dried duck fillets and a chicken and fish dried treats! Those should be alright shouldn't they?

One more thing, I've got 10 pigs trotters in the freezer for the boys, but I keep hearing off various people, that it's dangerous to feed pork to dogs due to aujeszky's disease which is caused by a parasite found in pigs. Apparently it's been eradicated here in the UK, but I'm not sure whether or not this is worth the risk!?

I have found a phone number for someone who goes rabbiting, and would provide rabbits to raw feeding people. I can't bare the thought of feeding my dogs whole rabbits with heads ect still attached! I've been doing so very well, getting used to livers, hearts, ect, but I think whole rabbits would be too much for me! :001_unsure:
I might give them a ring and ask if he would skin, gut and behead the rabbits and maybe quarter them as well, to make them look less like a rabbit?! lol

princesssaskia you mentioned before a whole animal is better to feed than just mince or parts of the animal. The reason I wouldn't feed a whole pheasant to my dogs, is because I'm gundog training one of them at the moment, and if I then start giving him whole pheasants to eat, when we go on a shoot for picking up, he would think I'm sending him to go and get his dinner, and probably wouldn't bring the pheasant back, but most likely start eating it!  lol So whole pheasant is going to be a no no. And whole rabbits, my heart couldn't take it!

Thanks again for all the great info on here, and for all the support from everyone!

take care, Marion


----------



## princesssaskia

Tilldob said:


> I am feeding Tripe,Rabbit,Chicken,Lamb and Beef minces also heart and Offal i add milled Linseed, Oats, Rice,cooked carrots and cabbage,Potatoes and Yumega.I vary it sometimes rice and oats and sometimes veg.
> I have just placed my first order with DAF and amongst other thing have ordered the bag of mixed meats and some spleen.
> Do you have a special blender to puree your veg? i know cooked veg has no nutritional value to dogs,i feed it to fill. I have a kenwood blender would that do it do you think?Do you add any other vitamins?Also i show my lad and have been told he needs more weight on him,any tips.
> I havent given the older girls any necks or bones they gulp their food to much and im worried they will choke. I have ordered some chicken carcasses so if i feel brave will maybe let them have a go
> Im not on Facebook, my daughter is so when she comes round we will have a look. She has one of the pups,and also feeds raw.
> Any advise on the diet will be appreciated.


ok, lots to talk about here. Firstly its great you feeding a few different meats, remember ideally you should aim at a minimum of 4 different meats each week. Personally, with bullys I would steer clear of beef and aim for tripe, lamb, chicken, turkey, duck and game like pheasant, partridge, etc (like i said in my earlier mail, you can get minced game from manifold valley meats if you cant source whole game)

Its rubbish that dogs cant get nutrients from cooked veg!!!! actually its RAW veg that they cant get the most nutrients from, of course the nutrients are there but the dogs lack the ability to break down the cell wall of plant matter which means it passes right through them without releasing much!!!! In the wild, wolves would eat veg matter that was already partially broken down, this would happen by them eating decayed/rotting veg matter that they scavenged, or by eating the pre digested stomach contents of the prey they caught - in both cases, the veg matter would be partially broken down, allowing the dogs digestive system to extract vital nutrients!!!!! When we choose to add veg and fruit to our RAW dogs diet, we should always begin this partial digestion process before feeding to the dog, this is achieved either by juicing OR by my preferred method of cooking lightly and then blending!!!! With a number of dogs to feed (like yourself) you would find it easiest to do as I do and make up a good batch of fruit/veg in one go, then you can freeze (provifing you have the room) and simply defrost a bag each night ready for the morning. This is the link to my 'veg prep guide' which tells you step by step how to prepare the veg, I find that about £20 worth of fruit/veg lasts my 3 dogs about 5 or 6 weeks and it takes me about 2 or 3 hours to prep it all https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...447.1073741846.134011846787624&type=1&theater

All my facebook pages are 'open' pages, which means you can view their content without being a member of facebook !!!!

If you are feeding a good variety of lightly cooked and blended fruit and veg, at least 4 different types of meat and bone, a couple of organic eggs, some organic liver and kidney and a couple of tins of oily fish like mackerel or sardines EACH WEEK, then should be no need to add any vitamin supplementation! (unless there is a specific health problem to be addressed)

THE BIGGEST BIT OF ADVICE I CAN GIVE YOU IS TO STOP FEEDING GRAIN !!!! Dogs digestive systems are simply not designed to deal with it and it is the most common allergen in commercial pet food. Grain acts like a 'glue' clinging to the Duodenum (the first part of the small intestine) inhibiting its function and actually reducing the dogs ability to uptake nutrients from its food !!!!

Weight wise, I have the same issue with my youngster Ruby as far as the showing is concerned. Generally RAW fed dogs are leaner (and healthier for it!!!!) all my other dogs are nice and lean, but I have found that the show judges do like them a bit more filled out!!!! Uo the portion size, thats all you need to do, but make sure they get enough exercise so that they are 'bulked' with muscle not just little round fattys :biggrin:!!

I would love to see pics of your bullys, please do post some to my facebook page www.facebook.com/feedyourdograw and if you are interested in seeing my girls then my breeder page is www.facebook.com/greenlovebullterriers

xxxxxx


----------



## Tilldob

Why dont you feed Beef, any particular reason?
The judges do seem to like them a little on the chubby side.My lad is a big lad at 28 kgs but hes also lean,he has tremendous bone so ive been told several times. We walk quite a lot and do a lot of fell walking too so lots of exercise for them.
Thanks for the info on the Veg and grains.I was advised to add Oats by a Bull Terrier trainer but have also read elsewhere that its not that good for them,im lucky though dont think mine have allergy problems.
Will try and let you have some pics of my Bully pals soon.
All seems well with mum and son they were playing together for a while last night, wont rush it though.


----------



## princesssaskia

StormyKnight said:


> Hi everyone,
> it's been a while since I've posted on here, so I thought, now that I've got a minute, I'd post a little update!
> 
> The boys are still loving their raw diet and I couldn't be happier seeing them all enjoy each and every meal they get!
> 
> My last supply from DAF consisted of chicken carcasses, chicken and tripe mince and tripe mince and lamb mince. This time I went for other things. I ended up getting, turkey mince, beef meat chunks, chicken meat chunks, beef spleen chunks, pheasant mince and venison mince.
> 
> I now get a steady supply of meaty bones from a local butchers! I can come twice a week they told me, and they will have a collection of stuff. Last week, I received a 6kgs bag of lamb bones , yesterday I got 2 huge beef leg bones! I know leg bones shouldn't be fed because they can break teeth, but these bones had lots of meat still left on them, so the boys enjoyed an afternoon of chewing all the meat off the bones! I also get chicken gizzard from my new favourite butchers. Are those considered offal? They don't look very offal-like to me! Not the deep red colour like liver.
> 
> I am also getting rather good at bargain hunting, and I can now be found near the meat section at morrison's, looking for reduced price meats. Last week I ended up coming out with two carrier bags full to the top! Whole ox kidneys, lamb and pork livers!
> 
> I do believe that I fed too much bone in the beginning, as our old boy's poo was quite crumbly, which has now gone away! I think I'm starting to get the hang of things!
> The only thing I still can't figure out is how much offal! I know 10% but how much is that!? haha If I fed them each a whole ox kidney which is a little bit smaller than a man's fist, would that be their whole offal portion for that week?
> 
> We have also continued feeding them tinned sardines and tuna, natural live yogurt, cottage cheese, raw eggs, ect.
> 
> We did have a little scare this week. I took two of the boys for a longer walk in the park and ran into a friend of mine. He always gives all the dogs he meets dog treats! So of course he gave mine some gravy bones! I never even thought that they shouldn't really have them now that they are on raw food! Anyway, our 4 year old goldie seemed a bit under the weather the rest of the day. But my main worry was my 6 1/2 year old Patterdale terrier who went off all his food for 3 meals! so 2 breakfasts and one tea time meal! He eventually passed a stool after 36 hours and was back to his normal self after that! no more normal dog treats for my boys from now on! I haven't been giving them any treats anyway, since we started on the raw, because they are all so satisfied on their 2 meals a day, there's no need! lol
> I have now ordered some fish4dogs treats and have bought some treats from Wilkinsons which are dried chicken fillets, dried duck fillets and a chicken and fish dried treats! Those should be alright shouldn't they?
> 
> One more thing, I've got 10 pigs trotters in the freezer for the boys, but I keep hearing off various people, that it's dangerous to feed pork to dogs due to aujeszky's disease which is caused by a parasite found in pigs. Apparently it's been eradicated here in the UK, but I'm not sure whether or not this is worth the risk!?
> 
> I have found a phone number for someone who goes rabbiting, and would provide rabbits to raw feeding people. I can't bare the thought of feeding my dogs whole rabbits with heads ect still attached! I've been doing so very well, getting used to livers, hearts, ect, but I think whole rabbits would be too much for me! :001_unsure:
> I might give them a ring and ask if he would skin, gut and behead the rabbits and maybe quarter them as well, to make them look less like a rabbit?! lol
> 
> princesssaskia you mentioned before a whole animal is better to feed than just mince or parts of the animal. The reason I wouldn't feed a whole pheasant to my dogs, is because I'm gundog training one of them at the moment, and if I then start giving him whole pheasants to eat, when we go on a shoot for picking up, he would think I'm sending him to go and get his dinner, and probably wouldn't bring the pheasant back, but most likely start eating it!  lol So whole pheasant is going to be a no no. And whole rabbits, my heart couldn't take it!
> 
> Thanks again for all the great info on here, and for all the support from everyone!
> 
> take care, Marion


Hiya!!!! glad its all going well, see I told you it would all come together! RAW feeding is about breaking away from the conventional belief that crappy old pet food supplies everything a dog needs!!!! Yes it can seem daunting at first, but with a bit of common sense, you can find your feet and away you go. Portions dont have to be perfect, just generally balanced over the course of a week!

As regards the offal, generally all the organs and yucky bits that we consider waste are usually classed as offal. The confusing thing for new RAW feeders is that you can feed these things in different quantities. Generally, the 10% i usually make up just with 1 portion of organic kidney and 1 portion of organic liver each week (these 2 organs are important to feed and, since they are filter organs, they should be fed organic if possible). Heart, though an organ, is really muscle meat and thus can be fed in the same way as chopped beef or venison etc. Other things, like gizzard and lung etc can be fed mixed through minces etc or sometimes as whole meals on their own if your dog is happy to eat it!!!

re the treats, yes its funny but lots of people who switch their dogs RAW continue to feed cheap, grain laden treats at first, its habit i guess!!! Fish4Dogs is fab, one of my bullys is allergic to loads of things and even the grain free biscuits that my other dogs enjoy have brewers yeast in which she cant tolerate!!!! Keep a close watch to make sure other well meaning people dont feed your dog anything they shouldnt, and also watch if you take your dog to a friends house where there could be an unattended bowl of kibble up for grabs - i have had a disaster with this!!!!

Pigs trotters are a bit controversial, some people dont feed pork because of parasites, though personally i feel that if you freeze it good and cold for at least 3 days before feeding and you buy free range or organic meat to begin with then it should be fine (its cheap meat from intensively reared animals that poses the greatest risk from parasites (and is often loaded with residue of antibiotics, hormones or growth promoters! - so be careful buying bargain basement supermarket meat !!!) Other people dont feed trotters because they are weight bearing bones and thus are thought to splinter - personally i have never had an issue with this either - but its a personal choice!

As for the game - get in there girl !!!!!! if you are training a gun dog i support your argument about not feeding whole pheasant etc but if you are working him then you should be getting a stomach for seeing and handling dead game, its only a small step to let them chew up a whole rabbit and its so good for them (only remove the stomach and intestines, but feed the rest its so good for them) I was a veggie for 20 years and if i can do it anyone can :biggrin: xxxx


----------



## princesssaskia

Tilldob said:


> Why dont you feed Beef, any particular reason?
> The judges do seem to like them a little on the chubby side.My lad is a big lad at 28 kgs but hes also lean,he has tremendous bone so ive been told several times. We walk quite a lot and do a lot of fell walking too so lots of exercise for them.
> Thanks for the info on the Veg and grains.I was advised to add Oats by a Bull Terrier trainer but have also read elsewhere that its not that good for them,im lucky though dont think mine have allergy problems.
> Will try and let you have some pics of my Bully pals soon.
> All seems well with mum and son they were playing together for a while last night, wont rush it though.


good im glad!

I dont feed beef for 2 reasons. The first is because most beef is intensively farmed or reared with the use of growth promoters, routine antibiotics and hormones etc etc - the beef that isnt, is simply too expensive for me

The second reason is that it is a meat that commonly causes allergies, especially in bull breed dogs

As a substitute i prefer to use chopped ox or lamb heart and i feed lamb tripe instead of beef tripe xxx


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## StormyKnight

Hi again everyone,
just a very quick post, as I have got loads of uni work still to do! 

I had bought some pheasant mince from DAF and I fed it for the first time at the beginning of the week. When all the boys had finished eating, our old boy Hamish, spat something back into the bowl. When I checked it was a shot pellet!
I was quite shocked at the beginning, but when I checked on their website, it does state that it may contain shot.
My question now is, is it safe for them to be eating it, if the shot is still in it? Could they get lead poisoning from eating it? 
My fiance said he can't imagine them selling the mince, if the shot pellets could do the dogs harm!
However I was/am a little concerned, and have not fed them the rest of the pheasant mince yet. 

have a great weekend everyone!


----------



## Goblin

princesssaskia said:


> Its rubbish that dogs cant get nutrients from cooked veg!!!! actually its RAW veg that they cant get the most nutrients from, of course the nutrients are there but the dogs lack the ability to break down the cell wall of plant matter which means it passes right through them without releasing much!!!! In the wild, wolves would eat veg matter that was already partially broken down, this would happen by them eating decayed/rotting veg matter that they scavenged, or by eating the pre digested stomach contents of the prey they caught


Just a correction. Wolves don't eat the stomach content of prey unless it's small like mice. For large animals they are known to actually shake the "vegetation" out or leave the stomach entirely.

I agree that you need to process "vegetables" to extract nutrients for dogs but like most things, it's not as simple as that. Let's face it, that's why dry food manufacturers can state grain is digestible. One of the key factors of the raw diet isn't the nutrients involved but enzymes. It's these enzymes which are often missing in cooked food. Something which can have a major impact in the long term health of animals. You may want to have a look at the work of a Dr Kollath in regards to raw diets  That's not going to be an issue with cooking small amounts in a larger diet but worth considering if you are making sweeping statements.


----------



## DirtyGertie

StormyKnight said:


> Hi again everyone,
> just a very quick post, as I have got loads of uni work still to do!
> 
> I had bought some pheasant mince from DAF and I fed it for the first time at the beginning of the week. When all the boys had finished eating, our old boy Hamish, spat something back into the bowl. When I checked it was a shot pellet!
> I was quite shocked at the beginning, but when I checked on their website, it does state that it may contain shot.
> My question now is, is it safe for them to be eating it, if the shot is still in it? Could they get lead poisoning from eating it?
> My fiance said he can't imagine them selling the mince, if the shot pellets could do the dogs harm!
> However I was/am a little concerned, and have not fed them the rest of the pheasant mince yet.
> 
> have a great weekend everyone!


I've recently had cause to contact Manifold Valley Meats about shot as I bought some rabbit chunks, whole rabbit and hare shoulders from them. It did not state on their website that these particular products contained shot but I found some in both the rabbit chunks and the whole rabbit, varying sizes from a whole shot pellet to a very tiny piece, albeit still identifiable as shot (they've since amended their website to warn of all products which might contain shot).

I do not know if there is a "safe" level or how much would be needed to bring about lead poisoning in any particular size of dog but as I have a very small dog (5.5kg) I'm not willing to take the chance. I inspect the rabbit extemely carefully, picking it over and thoroughly checking to remove any pieces. Regarding "can't imagine them selling the mince if the shot pellets could do the dogs harm", in my opinion if there was absolutely no danger whatsoever I doubt there would be a warning on the website.

Luckily Hamish spat it out, my Poppy is a suck it in and swallow 5 second eater and doesn't stop to bite down or taste anything and if she had mince I'm sure she wouldn't find it to spit it out. Some of the smaller pieces I've found would be too small for Hamish to notice.

I believe there is a type of non-toxic shot that can be used but I don't know how common it's use is or whether the suppliers would know if that was used to shoot the animals they process.


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## suespoon

Can someone iron out the 'raw or cooked' veg argument for me? Been feeding raw for 6 months and all is well. Was on 2/3 meat and 1/3 raw veg, with meaty bones. My doodle has never been keen on the raw veg but eats most of it since I read princesssaskia's post on blending/lightly cooking and made that up instead. Very messy though!! So, please, which is best for her and my 13 week doodle puppy? That is what I will then stick to! Cheers all!


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## DirtyGertie

suespoon said:


> Can someone iron out the 'raw or cooked' veg argument for me? Been feeding raw for 6 months and all is well. Was on 2/3 meat and 1/3 raw veg, with meaty bones. My doodle has never been keen on the raw veg but eats most of it since I read princesssaskia's post on blending/lightly cooking and made that up instead. Very messy though!! So, please, which is best for her and my 13 week doodle puppy? That is what I will then stick to! Cheers all!


It's really up to you. Some people feed veg, some don't. Dogs are carnivores and probably don't need any.

I feed veg along the lines of what's in Sleeping Lion's post. I include the nuts and everything else mentioned. There's a list of vitamins and minerals provided by the various things. I include a cube of blitzed veg etc about two or three times a week not every day (mine's a little dog).

Some people feel the need to add supplements. I think, as with humans, unless there is a specific reason for including a particular supplement then a good diet will provide what is needed, so I feed a variety of raw proteins (not organic as I can't afford it) and a bit of veg just in case anything is missing.


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## princesssaskia

suespoon said:


> Can someone iron out the 'raw or cooked' veg argument for me? Been feeding raw for 6 months and all is well. Was on 2/3 meat and 1/3 raw veg, with meaty bones. My doodle has never been keen on the raw veg but eats most of it since I read princesssaskia's post on blending/lightly cooking and made that up instead. Very messy though!! So, please, which is best for her and my 13 week doodle puppy? That is what I will then stick to! Cheers all!


Personally I think that its a good idea to feed a portion of lightly cooked and blended fruit and veg each day. Yes dogs / wolves are carnivores but they are also scavengers, eating things like decaying fruit/veg that may have fallen from trees etc and of course they also eat the stomach contents of the prey animals they catch - which is predominantly plant matter !

When considering the argument 'RAW veg or cooked veg' It is important to remember that, although they are able to digest cartilage and even solid bones, dogs do not possess the correct enzymes required to break down the cell wall of plant matter, which means that it mostly passes through them undigested and thus without releasing valuable nutrients! When dogs scavenge rotten plant matter, or consume the partially digested stomach content, then they are eating something which is already partially broken down (by the decaying process or by the digestive enzymes of the prey animal) Because the veg matter is partially broken down, it is easier for the dog to digest and extract the nutrients. so, in short it is best to feed lightly cooked and well blended veg (the only things I dont pre cook are soft fruits/veg like berries, spinach and bananas etc).

For some dogs, bullys for example, where excess protein may cause problems for kidneys etc etc, then I actually feed 2/3 veg and 1/3 mince in the mornings !!!!!


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## princesssaskia

Goblin said:


> Just a correction. Wolves don't eat the stomach content of prey unless it's small like mice. For large animals they are known to actually shake the "vegetation" out or leave the stomach entirely.
> 
> I agree that you need to process "vegetables" to extract nutrients for dogs but like most things, it's not as simple as that. Let's face it, that's why dry food manufacturers can state grain is digestible. One of the key factors of the raw diet isn't the nutrients involved but enzymes. It's these enzymes which are often missing in cooked food. Something which can have a major impact in the long term health of animals. You may want to have a look at the work of a Dr Kollath in regards to raw diets  That's not going to be an issue with cooking small amounts in a larger diet but worth considering if you are making sweeping statements.


Yes, in commercial cooked canned meat and kibble, lack of these enzymes is significant, but in a RAW diet Ample digestive enzymes are provided by the RAW meat/bone/and offal part of the diet (which constitutes the greatest percentage!) so feeding cooked fish and cooked veg will provide less enzymes yes but does still provided quality nutrients which I believe are very important x


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## Goblin

princesssaskia said:


> and of course they also eat the stomach contents of the prey animals they catch - which is predominantly plant matter !


Again, No, they don't.

If you don't want to take expert knowledge on wolves (L. David Mech - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and how they shake the stomach to remove the plant matter contents before eating, how about the remains of a coyote kill :

http://www.petforums.co.uk/members/...ts-left-bones-stomach-including-contents.html and 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/members/...ts-left-bones-stomach-including-contents.html

Lets get facts right when we can.


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## Nicky10

suespoon said:


> Can someone iron out the 'raw or cooked' veg argument for me? Been feeding raw for 6 months and all is well. Was on 2/3 meat and 1/3 raw veg, with meaty bones. My doodle has never been keen on the raw veg but eats most of it since I read princesssaskia's post on blending/lightly cooking and made that up instead. Very messy though!! So, please, which is best for her and my 13 week doodle puppy? That is what I will then stick to! Cheers all!


Dogs are carnivores everything about their makeup is carnivore. But they evolved to eat our leftovers. Breeds that evolved where the human diet was more grain/vegetable heavy handle those better than say huskies that evolved on a diet of meat. They can't digest raw vegetables they have to be cooked or processed first. I don't feed vegetables because a) he won't eat them and b) I don't think they're necessary but even if I did I wouldn't be feeding very much. They can add vitamins and things to the diet but it's up to you. But I feed completely differently than princesssaskia seems to I feed prey model no vegetables just meat, bone and organ preferably no minces involved.


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## bella2013

Hey, i'm just double checking when feeding a 13 week old puppy im feeding 10% of her body weight arnt i? and any advice anyone has regarding feeding a pup would be good, im trying to avoid feeding minces as she's managing bones fine. thanks x


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## Martin473892394

Raw feeding and dog bladder stones -

Jan 2014 Bladder stones and diet change to raw meat -

We had a lot of trouble with bladder stones effecting our Hannah (a Cairn terrier), including an instances of acute retention which could have killed her, but a change of diet to a raw meat natural one seem to solve the problem on a life long basis. Most vets seem to favour a change of diet.

This is a real life case history of canine bladder stones in a personal pet. The case was a sever one that resulted in an acute retention that could have been fatal.

As a result of this and a consequent loss of confidence in veterinary treatment for this condition a drastic diet change to one that reflected food that was natural to dogs - fresh meat for example - was instigated. This appears to have been successful so bearing in mind the emotional distress to both pet and owner, in addition to the physical distress of the pet, the case history was written up for publishing to assist others in a similar distressing situation.

It could be noted that the diet change and its effects could be applied to other conditions with the particular effects of the modern diets that our bodies have not evolved with and are not able to function healthily on.

For a full description of Hannah's problems and details of her case history please see -

https://sites.google.com/site/caninebladderstones/

(If the link does not work then just copy and search for it)


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## bella2013

i got it wrong! just re-read the first post, she's a jrt so im guessing about 6kg? so i'm feeeding her roughly the right weight of food for an approximate adult weight. she's getting 80g on food three times a day


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## Nicky10

That sounds about right. Puppies can handle a bigger variety than adult dogs can and it's best to give her lots of different foods now so she's used to it. Good luck with the diet.


----------



## suespoon

Nicky10 said:


> Dogs are carnivores everything about their makeup is carnivore. But they evolved to eat our leftovers. Breeds that evolved where the human diet was more grain/vegetable heavy handle those better than say huskies that evolved on a diet of meat. They can't digest raw vegetables they have to be cooked or processed first. I don't feed vegetables because a) he won't eat them and b) I don't think they're necessary but even if I did I wouldn't be feeding very much. They can add vitamins and things to the diet but it's up to you. But I feed completely differently than princesssaskia seems to I feed prey model no vegetables just meat, bone and organ preferably no minces involved.


I opened a bit of a hornet's nest with this one! I will carry on with a small amount of veg, since the little one happily polishes off the remains of Lola's veg anyway. Thanks all.


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## Goblin

suespoon said:


> I opened a bit of a hornet's nest with this one! I will carry on with a small amount of veg, since the little one happily polishes off the remains of Lola's veg anyway. Thanks all.


I also feed prey model but don't avoid giving them veg on occasion, I just don't make it a core part of the diet and don't factor it in, in terms of planning.

Only reason I commented is misinformation being spread.

Raw feeding isn't a fixed "got to do X,Y, Z". We have the amount to feed and the ratio but when all said and done, they are simply only guidelines. Do what you think is best for your dog bearing in mind the advice given, adapting if necessary. One of the key features of raw feeding which I'll stress now is know your individual dog.


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## princesssaskia

goblin, I do take your point on board re the stomach contents - to be honest I was referring more to smaller prey caught, not to larger animals. In the latter case, as you rightly say, stomach content is often left or only picked through

You mentioned about RAW feeding not being set in stone and that its important to know your own dog and I couldnt agree more - i think one of the most important things i have learnt on my RAW journey is that not all dogs should be fed exactly the same, this seems all the more relevant where some of the pedigree breeds are concerned

Personally I love the idea of prey model - I really think feeding whole animals (in my case particularly game like pheasant and rabbit) is a great idea. All my dogs enjoy eating portions of whole rabbit etc in the evenings, fur, organs, bone, blood and flesh and they love it. However, in the case of bullys, which obviously is the breed I deal mostly with, a diet high in protein is not always best for them. This is the reason that when my bullys eat whole rabbit I deliberately give them the portions with less 'rich' meat and its also the reason that I choose to feed such a high proportion of fruit/veg in the morning - and i only feed the minces with this veg as it mixes through it easily and makes it more palatable - though having said that, some of my bullys are happy to devour a plate of veg on its own!!!

And this is another important point - i believe the same applies to humans - know your body and let it guide you - if your dog shows a strong aversion for something or a strong desire for something, then follow their lead in most cases, they are usually pretty in touch with what their body needs

xxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## williams500

Hi,
I have got a 10 week old leonberger puppy and am feeding him RAW! At the moment I am giving him mainly chicken mince and chicken wings 4 times a day - 3 x mince and 1 wings - is this enough bone? I am getting my mince from MVM so even the mince has got bone.

I have started to mix either tripe or beef into the chicken mince to introduce more proteins and all seems good. I am also giving him some goats yoghurt once a day.

I wanted to start to introduce offal and have got some chicken liver - am i best mixing a little in the mince?
Also, when is best to start introducing veg and does anyone have any recommendations for what to start with?

One other thing - I have noticed that in the morning he does not seem as hungry and tends to eat half this mince and pick at the rest until i take it up but by lunch he is gobbling everything - could this be due to the diet or just the way he likes to eat!?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as there is so much info out there it is hard to know which is best - so glad i found this thread


----------



## Shivles

We just started feeding raw today, my boy has had bones before so I decided to go straight for the chicken legs with him. He happily munched his first one with no hesitation! Will be giving him 3 legs a day for the first week to make sure he's ok with it then introduce tripe. Very pleased I found a place close by that sells 10kg boxes of chicken legs for £20, going to go to the local butchers and see if he can do me any deals too


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## Debz65

My dog is on simpsons premium sensitive...and about every other day she might get a raw egg, with her kibble, or half csn sardines, her fave treat is a carrot, apple or banana. Occasionally she will have chicken necks out in the garden but she's taken to gobbling them up too fast and am worried she's not chewing them. That's mainly her diet....not going raw completely. I think she's happy on what she's getting.


----------



## princesssaskia

williams500 said:


> Hi,
> I have got a 10 week old leonberger puppy and am feeding him RAW! At the moment I am giving him mainly chicken mince and chicken wings 4 times a day - 3 x mince and 1 wings - is this enough bone? I am getting my mince from MVM so even the mince has got bone.
> 
> I have started to mix either tripe or beef into the chicken mince to introduce more proteins and all seems good. I am also giving him some goats yoghurt once a day.
> 
> I wanted to start to introduce offal and have got some chicken liver - am i best mixing a little in the mince?
> Also, when is best to start introducing veg and does anyone have any recommendations for what to start with?
> 
> One other thing - I have noticed that in the morning he does not seem as hungry and tends to eat half this mince and pick at the rest until i take it up but by lunch he is gobbling everything - could this be due to the diet or just the way he likes to eat!?
> 
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated as there is so much info out there it is hard to know which is best - so glad i found this thread


Hiya and welcome, yes this thread is a great source of info for all of us, though its getting pretty long now !!!!

Since your mince contains bone, then 3x mince and 1x wings should be enough bone, though 2 portions of wings some days would be fine too

Ideally you want to aim for at least 4 different types of meat each week. Rather than mixing the tripe and beef through the chicken, I would feed it on its own, this way you are adding variety and alternating the protein sources. Obviously you do want to introduce new meats slowly to begin with so its fine to mix it with the chicken, for the first few meals if need be. You dont need to feed bone for every meal, so long as you include an adequate amount each day, so feeding a tripe meal on its own is fine, just feed wings for the next meal etc to balance it out.

I also get my minces from MVM, they have a great selection and personally I would favour the game (pheasant, rabbit, venison, mixed game, hare, duck etc) over the beef since I believe the quality is better

Goats yoghurt is ok, but I tell you whats even better, RAW (unpasturised) organic goats milk !!! it can be hard to get hold of, I order mine online from here RAW Unpasteurised Organic, Biodynamic Goat's Milk 1 Pint, Organic Food UK I feed it to my pregnant and nursing bitches and to my pups right up until they leave me (or as long as 20 weeks if im keeping them) Pasturising milk decimates its nutritional value, whereas RAW goats milk is full of beautiful nutrients - make sure its good quality and organic and avoid cows milk

As for the offal, yes you want to include some liver and kidney each week - most people favour chicken, lamb or pork, mixing it through the mince is fine - though if you speak to MVM they can tell you which of their minces actually include offal. I feed 1 or 2 portions of each every week, sometimes lamb, sometimes chicken, sometimes pork, though mostly from game !!!!

As you can see from the recent posts on this thread, veg is quite a personal subject, some people feed none at all, or only very little. Personally I feed 1/3rd veg to 2/3rds mince to my young dogs in the morning and 2/3rds veg to 1/3rd mince to the older dogs (in the evenings I dont feed any veg, just meaty bones or whole game

If you do decide to feed veg you can introduce it anytime, just remember to process it first as dogs cant digest veg unless its partially broken down (this is commonly achieved through lightly cooking and blending or juicing)

Dogs can eat a range of fruit and veg - but avoid advocados, citrus fruit, onions and grapes and make sure you feed plenty of leafy greens like spring greens, cabbage, kale or spinach

You can also introduce a can or 2 of oily fish, like sardines or mackerel each week and a RAW organic egg or 2 each week

Dont worry too much about him not eating in the morning, all of them are different. I have a youngster who can scoff her breakfast as early as 6am, another that wont eat until she has been exercised and another who doesnt eat anything before 1pm, sometimes even later!!!

A pup should eat pretty regularly, so long as yours is eating 3 good meals a day, spaced out a bit then that should be fine - generally I reduce this to 2 meals from 6 months and sometimes to 1 meal from 2 or 3 years, but it depends on the dog - let your judgement guide you and just keep an eye on their weight and energy levels

xxxx


----------



## princesssaskia

Debz65 said:


> My dog is on simpsons premium sensitive...and about every other day she might get a raw egg, with her kibble, or half csn sardines, her fave treat is a carrot, apple or banana. Occasionally she will have chicken necks out in the garden but she's taken to gobbling them up too fast and am worried she's not chewing them. That's mainly her diet....not going raw completely. I think she's happy on what she's getting.


I know a number of people who feed a bit of RAW alongside a kibble diet and I guess if it works for your dog then thats fine, its always going to be an improvement on a kibble only diet !

However, in my experience, for some dogs switching between kibble and RAW can cause digestive upsets and, if your kibble contains grain, or is one of the cheaper brands contain additives and colourings, then that can cause problems too

I fully understand that kibble is convenient but you could try feeding complete minces as your staple instead and then just add whole meaty bones in the form of chicken necks or wings (as you are already doing) By complete minces, I mean ones that contain meat, bone and organs and so provide a good balance of nutrients. These come in easy to handle packs which you can pop in the freezer and simply defrost as much as you need overnight, then you simply tip it into the bowl and feed - as easy as kibble !!!! I guess the only difference is that you need some freezer space. For ultimate peace of mind (if you feed kibble because you are worried about the dog getting the right nutrition - as some people are) you can add a good quality daily vitamin / mineral supplement and pre/pro biotic

If you are feeding RAW eggs and tinned oily fish regularly then this will also add vital nutrients/oils to the diet. (I wouldnt feed more than 2 or 3 eggs per week though and preferably free range/organic)

You said you are worried about her bolting the bones a little, I have found this can be a problem with dogs who are fed bones alongside kibble, as they are not used to chewing but rather gulp their food down! (to be fair, this is also the case with dogs fed mostly RAW mince and only occasionally bones) Feeding bones regularly (every eve or every other day for example) will help your dog get the idea. Some dogs gulp their bones cos they get over excited about them, especially if they only get them occasionally ! You dont say how big your dog is? but there are 2 ways of tackling the issue. 1) For small dogs/pups and ones that are 'gentle' you can hold onto the neck/wing and encourage them to chew it, this works very well and they will soon get the idea 2) for larger breeds, or those that are so 'keen' that you fear for your fingers, its best to feed larger meaty bones like carcass or ribs, this can seem daunting but the idea is simple, if the dog cant fit the whole thing in its mouth then it is forced to tear and chew bits off!

Always watch your dog whenever you feed him bones

Feeding things like carrots and apples as a treat isnt a bad thing, better than biscuits and if your dog loves them great ! Just be aware that they wont get many nutrients from them as dogs cant digest plant matter very well unless it has been partially broken down first, they dont have the enzymes to break down the cell walls - all this means is that most of the whole fruit/veg will pass straight through them (which is why you often see orange chunks of carrot in their poo!!!!) But if your dog enjoys chewing them and they keep her occupied then who cares !!!!

xxxx


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## suespoon

I know very little about raw feeding - as you can tell from my previous posts! - but one thing I can say is: feed a full raw diet! It is wholesome, easily prepared and so much better for your dog. Best of all - they LOVE their food on a raw diet. Don't expect leftovers!! You can get great meaty bones at Morrison's; the beef ones are big and mighty meaty!!!!


----------



## Changes

My vets are saying that raw feeding can cause salmonella, is this true? They also said that the bones can cause blockages and that they could not recommend raw diet to me. 

I asked if she was deliberately trying to put me off feeding raw, she didn't answer...


----------



## DirtyGertie

Changes said:


> My vets are saying that raw feeding can cause salmonella, is this true? They also said that the bones can cause blockages and that they could not recommend raw diet to me.
> 
> I asked if she was deliberately trying to put me off feeding raw, she didn't answer...


Par for the course as far as a lot of vets are concerned really. There aren't many vets that are fans of raw feeding, due mainly to the fact they don't really know much about it as the small amount of nutrition training appears to be sponsored by well known dog food companies.

There's as much chance as a dog contracting salmonella as there is humans, probably less in fact because their digestive system is much shorter than ours and transit of food is much quicker.

As far as bones causing blockages, well yes that could be true that's why it's important that your dog learns to handle bones correctly or if you've got a gulper like mine then hold the bone so they have to crunch it up.


----------



## GoldenShadow

Changes said:


> My vets are saying that raw feeding can cause salmonella, is this true? They also said that the bones can cause blockages and that they could not recommend raw diet to me.
> 
> I asked if she was deliberately trying to put me off feeding raw, she didn't answer...


My two have not had an obstruction in 3.5 years. Once I was very concerned Rupert did have an obstruction, repetitive sickness etc. Turns out he had pancreatitis as x rays all came back clear. I give them pig's trotters regularly and they have no problem.

Dogs can get salmonella just like we can and just like cats can. Difference is their digestive system is equipped to deal with it significantly better than ours is.

My vets asked what I feed and I said raw. They weren't thrilled with it but they didn't try to put me off it. If, however, I approached them and said 'how do you feel about raw feeding' I don't doubt that they may have a negative opinion of it. Horses for courses really. I ask my vets for opinions on many things and quite often they also disagreed with my dog's specialist..! There are often in house disagreements regarding treatment too, they all just have their preference for things.

My golden has a skin condition and every time he went to his specialist they commented on how wonderful his teeth were and asked what I fed. They were absolutely astounded how good his teeth were for a 3.5 year old golden retriever. Again they never criticised me for it but I think it was because I told them what I fed, I didn't go in asking for advice so they didn't feel like they needed to preach.


----------



## Goblin

Changes said:


> My vets are saying that raw feeding can cause salmonella, is this true? They also said that the bones can cause blockages and that they could not recommend raw diet to me.


There are risks but they need to be put into perspective.. A post earlier in this thread where the response may be of interest.

The title of this thread is very misleading. It is very clearly not everything you need to know as it is shamelessley pro-raw feeding

Another thread dealing with Salmonella etc:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/310303-salmonella-campylobactor.html


----------



## Changes

Goblin said:


> There are risks but they need to be put into perspective.. A post earlier in this thread where the response may be of interest.
> 
> The title of this thread is very misleading. It is very clearly not everything you need to know as it is shamelessley pro-raw feeding
> 
> Another thread dealing with Salmonella etc:
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/310303-salmonella-campylobactor.html


After feeding my boy Drym for many years on a raw diet I thought I would just do the same with the pup, although both vets I spoke to tried to discourage me by telling me how dogs get salmonella and obstructions, that hasn't really put me off feeding raw, I did get some good quality puppy biscuits but Poppy prefers raw. The illnesses that she has had so far I believe have been caused by the second puppy injection and the wormer/flea treatment Advantage.


----------



## Tilldob

Anyone used Landywoods for their Raw food ? i usually use DAF but unfortunately they are out of Chicken carcasses at the moment and my lot love em.Was just wondering about the quality of the food from Landywoods is it ok ?
The price seems reasonable but dont like the delivery charge my order is usually over £70.


----------



## DirtyGertie

Tilldob said:


> Anyone used Landywoods for their Raw food ? i usually use DAF but unfortunately they are out of Chicken carcasses at the moment and my lot love em.Was just wondering about the quality of the food from Landywoods is it ok ?
> The price seems reasonable but dont like the delivery charge my order is usually over £70.


My groomer used to use Landywoods and I had some stuff she added to her order for me and it was OK. She no longer uses them though because they messed her about with deliveries (despite her order being about £200 every month) so I haven't had anything for a long time.

Delivery charges seem to be expensive with all of these suppliers, I expect to pay in the region of around £10-£11 per 20kg for delivery by courier as that seems to be about average but Nurturing by Nature is £6.98 for 20kg.

For chicken carcasses I've had some from Nurturing by Nature but they are quite small, around 250g each, and not as meaty as the picture would have you believe. Manifold Valley Meats also have some (scroll down) but I've not tried theirs so can't comment on what they're like. And Raw2Paw (DAF supplier amongst others) have some locally sourced ones, also some under their Free Range range of products.


----------



## Guest

I had some chicken carcasses from Naturally Healthy Dogs 2 for 40p all though deivery is steep I think it was £7 but as far as I know they don't have min order they do have certain discounts on orders over a paticular amount and do fabulous range.

The chicken carcasses were big enough for a meal for my cocker spaniel they had a fair covering of meat and I think livers intact as well. I don't order from DAF anymore as I don't like the quality many of their minces often have a bad smell after just a day in the fridge. I find MVM minces are too watery or too bloody and some don't seem to have all the product.

Davids Doggy Dinners stocks both MVM, Natural Instinct and DAF you get charged £5 for delivery which is pretty fair really 

Nurturing By Nature are great again reasonable delivery, no min order and a fair range of products all though have a chicken base but at least its labled. I just find them expensive to order from online.

I buy both Natural Instinct and Simpsons Duck and Potato (£9 something for 2KG) I would feed chunks as well but havent found anywhere with decent quality chunks. Mine come from Bubbles Pet Store in Leigh on Sea Broadway and the bones which are super fresh come from the butchers they cost £2 for a whole bag of big variety decent meat content too ^^


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## princesssaskia

just a quick note but blood in minces is VERY good! far too many of the pet minces are dry/drained ! Blood is full of essential vitamins that are important for dogs on a RAW diet!


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## missRV

I've finally plucked up the courage to try Rosie on a piece of raw meat.... I gave her a chicken breast, well she sniffed at it, had a lick then walked away.... I cut it into smaller pieces and she took it then chewed it and spat it out! 

Is this a normal reaction? She's on Millie's Wolf heart kibble so she's already on a high quality high protein diet but I'd like to give raw a go...


----------



## Fluffster

missRV said:


> I've finally plucked up the courage to try Rosie on a piece of raw meat.... I gave her a chicken breast, well she sniffed at it, had a lick then walked away.... I cut it into smaller pieces and she took it then chewed it and spat it out!
> 
> Is this a normal reaction? She's on Millie's Wolf heart kibble so she's already on a high quality high protein diet but I'd like to give raw a go...


She's probably just not sure of it. I know my cats are funny with pieces of raw meat as they're not used to them. Was it cold from the fridge? Maybe let it warm up to room temp and let her try again?


----------



## missRV

Thanks  

I don't want to give her too much of a shock as she's been on Millies for a while now... I'll try her again in a few days time. They were fresh and had been chilled so maybe it's that... am I safe to leave one out at room temperature for a few minutes? IE: will I not increase the risk of salmonella? (I've been a vegetarian since 11 and know nothing about meat!)


----------



## Fluffster

I would have thought so, dogs are much less sensitive to bacteria than we are and I think it would need to sit out for quite a few hours before there was any risk.
You could warm it up by putting it in some warm water or something too so it's not lying about.


----------



## missRV

Thank you


----------



## Tilldob

i have been ordering my Raw from DAF now for a few months and the quality of the food is good.When ordering the last twice they dont have any chicken carcasses,i spoke to a guy at DAF who said they would be getting some more but they are still unavailabe.Anyone know where i can order some from,i would probably have to get my full order from them,doubt they will just bring the carcasses. What i need is a quality supplier who delivers on the Fylde coast at roughly the same price as DAF.


----------



## DirtyGertie

Tilldob said:


> i have been ordering my Raw from DAF now for a few months and the quality of the food is good.When ordering the last twice they dont have any chicken carcasses,i spoke to a guy at DAF who said they would be getting some more but they are still unavailabe.Anyone know where i can order some from,i would probably have to get my full order from them,doubt they will just bring the carcasses. What i need is a quality supplier who delivers on the Fylde coast at roughly the same price as DAF.


I got mine from Nurturing by Nature (along with other products to make the delivery charge worthwhile. They are not as meaty as the photo leads you to believe though.

If you look at their delivery information it looks like they will deliver your way but for parts of Scotland they wish you to phone them before you order. As my geography is rubbish I'm not sure whereabouts you are but you'll see from their map if you're in the area which requires you to contact them.


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## princesssaskia

missRV said:


> I've finally plucked up the courage to try Rosie on a piece of raw meat.... I gave her a chicken breast, well she sniffed at it, had a lick then walked away.... I cut it into smaller pieces and she took it then chewed it and spat it out!
> 
> Is this a normal reaction? She's on Millie's Wolf heart kibble so she's already on a high quality high protein diet but I'd like to give raw a go...


The smell and taste of RAW meat can be very alien to a dog used to eating kibble - I always reccommend people start by lightly cooking the piece of meat (steaming is best) just basically get some colour on it, this warms it up and also makes it more palatable to the dog, Then, over a period of a few days simply cook the piece of meat less and less before feeding until eventually your dog is happy to eat it RAW (please remember NOT to cook bones in this manner) xxx


----------



## Changes

My pup has been on a raw diet for 11 weeks now, since bringing her home, she is thriving, I was wondering how she would be with liver as some dogs can be quite fussy and not like the taste, or some dogs get a very upset stomach, need not have worried, it is her favourite part of raw diet, she will do anything for raw liver...

One thing I have noticed is her appetite is not consistent, she will sometimes fast for a day, then for the next day or two she will eat double quantities, then back to normal, is this normal?


----------



## PennyGSD

princesssaskia said:


> good im glad!
> 
> I dont feed *beef *for 2 reasons. The first is because most beef is intensively farmed or reared with the use of growth promoters, routine antibiotics and hormones etc etc - the beef that isnt, is simply too expensive for me
> 
> The second reason is that it is a meat that commonly causes allergies, especially in bull breed dogs
> 
> As a substitute i prefer to use chopped *ox *or lamb heart and i feed lamb tripe instead of beef tripe xxx


Princesssaskia - I don't mean to offend or upset you, but it looks like you haven't realised that ox tongue, ox cheek, oxtail, ox heart etc IS beef.


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## princesssaskia

Changes said:


> My pup has been on a raw diet for 11 weeks now, since bringing her home, she is thriving, I was wondering how she would be with liver as some dogs can be quite fussy and not like the taste, or some dogs get a very upset stomach, need not have worried, it is her favourite part of raw diet, she will do anything for raw liver...
> 
> One thing I have noticed is her appetite is not consistent, she will sometimes fast for a day, then for the next day or two she will eat double quantities, then back to normal, is this normal?


It is perfectly normal and actually very beneficial for an adult, healthy dog to fast - it purges their digestive system and 'reboots it' ! Its actually a good idea to fast your dog for one whole day each week (ensuring ample drinking water is available) Some dogs will naturally fast themselves and provided they are otherwise healthy and continue drinking this is nothing to worry about

Poorly dogs or pups should not fast - though my older pups aged around 8 months to 1 year old will do weekly 'half day' fasts - this means they go without breakfast and then eat one meal later on (one day per week) Pups aged between 6 and 8 months should be on 2 meals a day every day (except some giant breeds who may still need 3 meals at this age) Pups under 6 months should be fed 3 or 4 times a day

xxxx


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## princesssaskia

PennyGSD said:


> Princesssaskia - I don't mean to offend or upset you, but it looks like you haven't realised that ox tongue, ox cheek, oxtail, ox heart etc IS beef.


No offence taken, you are right of course. I should have explained myself better. I buy Ox parts from my local butcher that come from beasts I know to be free range and grass fed - i feed these in place of RAW pet products labelled 'beef' or general supermarket beef which is usually of less quality (unless organic beef, which as i said i cant afford)

I feed lamb tripe (or paunch) and lamb heart etc in place of beef tripe/heart for my dogs that are sensitive to beef/ox


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## lisaslovelys

Wow I cannot even begin to get my head around this lol 

I am going to start Honey on chicken She is 2.2 kgs and 9 weeks old .. I really have no clue on raw and don't want to feed her the wrong thing or the wrong amount :confused1: 

Would anyone kindly do me a menu suitable for her age and weight and I can go from there .. And is it still ok to give her homemade liver cake ?

I am off to bed now but will be grabbing some chicken wings tomorrow and some tripe is that ok ??


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## DirtyGertie

lisaslovelys said:


> Wow I cannot even begin to get my head around this lol
> 
> I am going to start Honey on chicken She is 2.2 kgs and 9 weeks old .. I really have no clue on raw and don't want to feed her the wrong thing or the wrong amount :confused1:
> 
> Would anyone kindly do me a menu suitable for her age and weight and I can go from there .. And is it still ok to give her homemade liver cake ?
> 
> I am off to bed now but will be grabbing some chicken wings tomorrow and some tripe is that ok ??


This is meant in the nicest possible way so please take it that way . Don't rush into it. Don't rely on anyone doing you a menu at this stage. Don't start raw feeding if you "haven't got a clue". Please read at least the first few pages of this sticky. Eventually it will sink in. I read and read again this sticky for weeks before I started. I asked questions and then I felt the time was right. It still took me about a year to become confident enough to stop relying solely on "balanced" minces plus chicken wings to branch out to feeding mainly meat chunks plus bone plus offal and then working out whether the ratios were right for Poppy.

Once you begin to understand it then ask questions, do research and only then convert fully to raw. You will find out how to work out the amount Honey needs now and during her growth to maturity, you will learn how to gradually introduce the different proteins and why they need to be introduced gradually, you will learn approximate ratios of meat/bone/offal, you'll learn what to look out for that may cause problems/questions, you'll learn how to poop watch and what clues that will give you.

At the moment the odd chicken wing will be fine as there are dental benefits but I would hold onto it at first so Honey gets the idea that she has to learn to take her time and not gulp it down. I still hold Poppy's chicken wings because she is a totally gutsy dog and thinks everything has to go down the hatch quickly, one chomp and it's gone, then she gags and tries to bring it back up. Your liver cake will be fine to give as treats. You could give the odd raw meal of maybe chicken or tripe (must be green not the white you get from butchers) but please don't jump in before you understand it.

Sorry if it seems like a lecture, not meant to be, just trying to point out why it's important to understand raw feeding . There are lots of raw feeders here who will be willing to help answer your questions.


----------



## Spookypigs

I've recently switched my dogs from a complete Greyhound food to a raw bones and raw meat diet. 

They love it but I'm of mixed feelings. We used to know when which dog was a due a poo and could trust them 90% of the time not to wee in the house. Since switching to the new diet that has all gone out if the window, or should I say...all over the floor. The poos aren't a problem, they mostly don't smell any more, so apart from not always knowing they're around, they're very easily cleaned up. The farts are still eye watering though. It's my understanding after three hours of reading this thread that smelly farts become a thing of the past. 

My mixed feelings are about our GSD, Ellie. She's approx 2yrs old, we've had her 6 months. Straight away I noticed she was thirstier than the grey and the lurcher. I put it down to anxiety, as I know anxious dogs will often drink excessive amounts of water. Gradually over time and with her settling in her accidents became less and her drinking was better. It could also be because she was getting used to our usual complete food. I think she was on complete before, but the stuff we get has lower protein because the higher protein stuff brought a previous GSD cross out in sore skin patches. 

But since we started the meat diet she has been drinking like a crazed beast again. So far today, from 4am, she has produced four huge puddles. The puddles don't smell of urine, they're clear (so no blood phew) and they're copious. She must have her head in the loo constantly because in an effort to halt the paddling we've kept water bowls low. My understanding of this diet is that they should be drinking less. 

So far they've had lamb ribs, lamb heart, beef heart, mixed bones from the butcher, beef mince, sardines and pilchards, trotters, kidney. I've given them small amounts of offal and plenty of bones to combat potential runs. 

Yesterday they had lamb ribs in the morning and a trotter each for dinner. Are any meats naturally saltier than others? 

Is there anything else I'm doing wrong that could cause excessive thirst...in one dog? Or is it still a transitional period? They've been on the diet just two days. A week prior they were on veg too but after further research I cut the poo making stuff out. 

I'm hoping its not diabetes or a kidney issue and will have to go to the vet if this doesn't clear up soon. I have no faith in vets so I prefer real advice from those who do rather than advice from a drug pusher. Cynical I know. But hey.


----------



## DirtyGertie

Spookypigs said:


> I've recently switched my dogs from a complete Greyhound food to a raw bones and raw meat diet.
> 
> They love it but I'm of mixed feelings. We used to know when which dog was a due a poo and could trust them 90% of the time not to wee in the house. Since switching to the new diet that has all gone out if the window, or should I say...all over the floor. The poos aren't a problem, they mostly don't smell any more, so apart from not always knowing they're around, they're very easily cleaned up. The farts are still eye watering though. It's my understanding after three hours of reading this thread that smelly farts become a thing of the past.
> 
> My mixed feelings are about our GSD, Ellie. She's approx 2yrs old, we've had her 6 months. Straight away I noticed she was thirstier than the grey and the lurcher. I put it down to anxiety, as I know anxious dogs will often drink excessive amounts of water. Gradually over time and with her settling in her accidents became less and her drinking was better. It could also be because she was getting used to our usual complete food. I think she was on complete before, but the stuff we get has lower protein because the higher protein stuff brought a previous GSD cross out in sore skin patches.
> 
> But since we started the meat diet she has been drinking like a crazed beast again. So far today, from 4am, she has produced four huge puddles. The puddles don't smell of urine, they're clear (so no blood phew) and they're copious. She must have her head in the loo constantly because in an effort to halt the paddling we've kept water bowls low. My understanding of this diet is that they should be drinking less.
> 
> *So far they've had lamb ribs, lamb heart, beef heart, mixed bones from the butcher, beef mince, sardines and pilchards, trotters, kidney. I've given them small amounts of offal and plenty of bones to combat potential runs.*
> 
> Yesterday they had lamb ribs in the morning and a trotter each for dinner. Are any meats naturally saltier than others?
> 
> Is there anything else I'm doing wrong that could cause excessive thirst...in one dog? Or is it still a transitional period? *They've been on the diet just two days.* A week prior they were on veg too but after further research I cut the poo making stuff out.
> 
> I'm hoping its not diabetes or a kidney issue and will have to go to the vet if this doesn't clear up soon. I have no faith in vets so I prefer real advice from those who do rather than advice from a drug pusher. Cynical I know. But hey.


There are far more experienced raw feeders on here than me who will probably come along and give you some advice, but am I reading this right? Have they only been on a raw diet for 2 days? If so then you've introduced far too much too soon, they should be on one protein only for the first week or so, then one new protein should be introduced every, say, week. That way you can see if anything in particular is causing a problem. Introducing everything all at once means you can't possibly know what may cause any problems, if any.

I personally don't give two bone meals a day. My dog doesn't do well on too much bone so she gets lower than the 10% guideline, otherwise she gets very hard and difficult to pass stools. But I will say that whenever she's had pig's trotter she does tend to drink a fair bit of water, however I think that might be because it takes such a long time and a lot of effort to get through a trotter (it can take her an hour to get through 40g, she's only a little Bichon).

Are the sardines and pilchards tinned? Is it in brine? That would make them thirsty being salty water. Best to use tinned fish in sping water, oil or even tomato sauce.

My dog's been raw fed for three years and I can honestly say she doesn't fart at all from any of the food she's fed. She doesn't drink much but like I say she does get slightly more meat and slightly less bone in her diet. She usually does proper wees two or three times a day although she can always find a bit more for scent marking.

I don't know of any particular meat being saltier than others if it's fresh, unprocessed meat but it's not something I've looked into.

Hopefully someone else will come along and maybe give you more help that I can.


----------



## Spookypigs

DirtyGertie said:


> There are far more experienced raw feeders on here than me who will probably come along and give you some advice, but am I reading this right? Have they only been on a raw diet for 2 days? If so then you've introduced far too much too soon, they should be on one protein only for the first week or so, then one new protein should be introduced every, say, week. That way you can see if anything in particular is causing a problem. Introducing everything all at once means you can't possibly know what may cause any problems, if any.


I realised about the same protein precaution only after I'd bought in tons of stuff, and buying just chicken or just beef for three big dogs seemed very expensive and possibly unnecessary as all three have been used to trimmings from various raw meats anyway. I cook for the family from scratch so the dogs often help out in the kitchen. They have trimmings and bones, the guinea pigs have the veg and fruit.

The only problem is the excessive drinking and subsequent puddles.



> I personally don't give two bone meals a day. My dog doesn't do well on too much bone so she gets lower than the 10% guideline, otherwise she gets very hard and difficult to pass stools. But I will say that whenever she's had pig's trotter she does tend to drink a fair bit of water, however I think that might be because it takes such a long time and a lot of effort to get through a trotter (it can take her an hour to get through 40g, she's only a little Bichon).


Yes, I think I may be giving too much bone, but they've always been used to it. But rather than a twice weekly treat its every day (we get free bags from our butcher) even twice if they have a turkey neck or trotter. Is that part of the 10% bone, or is it meat? They don't wince when they poo, but the poo is small and hard, but usually crumbly rather than like a solid stone. I wondered if too many bones could dehydrate them?

The only issue with poo is anticipating when they need to go. Dinner time used to be a 3min occasion. Now it's 30mins, even longer if its proper bone like rib cages so timings are all to pot. I used to know when each dog needed to poo. Not now.



> Are the sardines and pilchards tinned? Is it in brine? That would make them thirsty being salty water. Best to use tinned fish in sping water, oil or even tomato sauce.


Tomato sauce. This is another food they're used to. I read one where that tomatoes have something that is great for joints. I know of a greyhound rescue that includes tinned tomatoes in their dogs' diets.



> My dog's been raw fed for three years and I can honestly say she doesn't fart at all from any of the food she's fed.


We're looking forward to the day 



> Hopefully someone else will come along and maybe give you more help that I can.


You've helped and reassured me, thank you.

Another question. On this diet, is two meals better? They used to have just one about 7pm.


----------



## DirtyGertie

I'll just answer your specific questions as it seems that your dogs may be used to the different proteins already.



Spookypigs said:


> Yes, I think I may be giving too much bone, but they've always been used to it. But rather than a twice weekly treat its every day (we get free bags from our butcher) even twice if they have a *turkey neck or trotter*. Is that part of the 10% bone, or is it meat? They don't wince when they poo, but the poo is small and hard, but usually crumbly rather than like a solid stone. I wondered if too many bones could dehydrate them?


Trotter or both? I have a table of bone percentage for certain items. For chicken neck (unfortunately turkey neck isn't on it) without skin is 75% bone and with skin is 36% bone. I did find something on Dogster.com's forum that said turkey neck is 46% bone, doesn't mention if it's with or without skin though. For "pork feet and tail" it says 30% but the trotters I've had and the length of time it takes my little dog to get through them I would have said there was a lot more than 30% bone in them but I can't find anything to confirm exactly how much. So either of those would be counted towards the 10% bone part of the diet. Crumbly poo may indicate too much bone, especially if it's white.

From my research and looking at suggested food plans on some raw feeding sites they seem to suggest one bone meal a day and one meat meal a day. It's possible that too much bone could cause the thirst. As raw meat has a fair bit of moisture by giving them a lot of bone they wouldn't be getting as much moisture and thereby causing the need to drink. I'm not 100% sure.



> The only issue with poo is anticipating when they need to go. Dinner time used to be a 3min occasion. Now it's 30mins, even longer if its proper bone like rib cages so timings are all to pot. I used to know when each dog needed to poo. Not now.


My dog's timings can vary. There's no specific time after a meal, just usually on the first walk which is usually about an hour after breakfast. Sometimes she misses that one and there's one in the afternoon. Occasionally there's a second poo. Some days there's no poo. Maybe your dogs will settle into a routine once fully established on a full raw diet.



> Another question. On this diet, is two meals better? They used to have just one about 7pm.


I think that's down to what suits the dog best. Many years ago I had a labrador and later on a standard poodle. Both of these dogs were fed once a day. It suited them but they were always ready to snaffle anything they could get given the opportunity. Now I have a Bichon and she is fed twice a day, she's only little, has a little tummy so I think dividing her daily allowance into two meals is best for her.

I'm wondering whether it might be better to start a new thread as not all the raw feeders read this thread regularly, you might get a better response from a specific thread targetting your problem. There might be some GSD raw feeders who could possibly have knowledge of any particular problems that have cropped up raw feeding the breed.

Sorry I can't be much help to you, hopefully someone else can come up with something. I know you said you don't have a lot of faith in vets, and you know your dog and I don't, but you don't think it could be anything else causing the excessive drinking that might need checking out do you? Hopefully not.


----------



## princesssaskia

Spookypigs said:


> I've recently switched my dogs from a complete Greyhound food to a raw bones and raw meat diet.
> 
> They love it but I'm of mixed feelings. We used to know when which dog was a due a poo and could trust them 90% of the time not to wee in the house. Since switching to the new diet that has all gone out if the window, or should I say...all over the floor. The poos aren't a problem, they mostly don't smell any more, so apart from not always knowing they're around, they're very easily cleaned up. The farts are still eye watering though. It's my understanding after three hours of reading this thread that smelly farts become a thing of the past.
> 
> My mixed feelings are about our GSD, Ellie. She's approx 2yrs old, we've had her 6 months. Straight away I noticed she was thirstier than the grey and the lurcher. I put it down to anxiety, as I know anxious dogs will often drink excessive amounts of water. Gradually over time and with her settling in her accidents became less and her drinking was better. It could also be because she was getting used to our usual complete food. I think she was on complete before, but the stuff we get has lower protein because the higher protein stuff brought a previous GSD cross out in sore skin patches.
> 
> But since we started the meat diet she has been drinking like a crazed beast again. So far today, from 4am, she has produced four huge puddles. The puddles don't smell of urine, they're clear (so no blood phew) and they're copious. She must have her head in the loo constantly because in an effort to halt the paddling we've kept water bowls low. My understanding of this diet is that they should be drinking less.
> 
> So far they've had lamb ribs, lamb heart, beef heart, mixed bones from the butcher, beef mince, sardines and pilchards, trotters, kidney. I've given them small amounts of offal and plenty of bones to combat potential runs.
> 
> Yesterday they had lamb ribs in the morning and a trotter each for dinner. Are any meats naturally saltier than others?
> 
> Is there anything else I'm doing wrong that could cause excessive thirst...in one dog? Or is it still a transitional period? They've been on the diet just two days. A week prior they were on veg too but after further research I cut the poo making stuff out.
> 
> I'm hoping its not diabetes or a kidney issue and will have to go to the vet if this doesn't clear up soon. I have no faith in vets so I prefer real advice from those who do rather than advice from a drug pusher. Cynical I know. But hey.


Excessive drinking can be a symptom of detox when switching to (some dogs go through greater detox than others so its not unusual that only one dog is affected) this should level out over the course of a week or 2 - However, if it doesnt then I would seriously suggest having her checked out for kidney issues, I am not a fan of conventional vets either (being a pro holistic lady!) but it doesnt mean you have to let the vet treat them just give you a diagnosis - then you can look into alternative treatment (which personally i often find more affective in many cases anyway!)

As for the amount of meals a day, I agree with DirtieGertie that it is dependent on the breed (and age) of dog. My bullies do best on one meal a day from a year upward and they also have a starvation day each week when just water is offered - other dogs do better on 2 meals, my lurcher x runs around a lot and she does best on 2 meals

Re the bones - I fully appreciate that new RAW feeders like some guidelines and some people get very hung up on percentages and ratios but personally I find the prey model a good guide - in general look at the size of animals a dog would catch, such as a chciken, duck, pheasant or rabbit and then feed the meat/bones and organ in those rough proportions. Any good meaty bone usually has a good balance of bone and meat but if a meal is particularly bony then simply feed a meaty meal for the next meal to balance it out. Personally I have never weighed anything, i just let the dogs poo guide me (too hard and white = too much bone, too runny = not enough) The odd meal too big or too small or too boney wont kill them (goodness knows some dogs live long enough just eating kibble !!!!!) trust your common sense and all will be well

smelly farts is another sign of the detox - should also disappear after a few weeks feeding RAW - but as mentioned, dont introduce too many things too quick, especially rish things like fish, eggs and offal

as for the poo - all mine go morning and eve without fail - poo should be at least 1x a day on a RAW diet


----------



## princesssaskia

lisaslovelys said:


> Wow I cannot even begin to get my head around this lol
> 
> I am going to start Honey on chicken She is 2.2 kgs and 9 weeks old .. I really have no clue on raw and don't want to feed her the wrong thing or the wrong amount :confused1:
> 
> Would anyone kindly do me a menu suitable for her age and weight and I can go from there .. And is it still ok to give her homemade liver cake ?
> 
> I am off to bed now but will be grabbing some chicken wings tomorrow and some tripe is that ok ??


I have to agree that its important you have some idea what you are doing when feeding RAW - correct nutrition is especially important for a growing pup HOWEVER I also think that RAW feeding is an ongoing learning curve anyway and at some point you just have to take the plunge - in fact reading too much can be confusing ! Plus, kibble really the worst thing you can raise a pup on

I have a weekly menu that I send out with all my new puppies and i have posted the link here for you to look at. Please bear in mind that this is a menu for pups of 9 weeks that have been weaned onto RAW and so are used to eating a range of meat and bones.

It is NOT advisable for you to start feeding all this food straight away as you will upset your poor little pups tum - but its something to aim toward by around a month. Really dont be afraid of RAW - its just like feeding yourself, you dont worry about weighing everything when feeding yourself or creating the 'perfect' meal everytime, you just aim to feed a variety of good healthy food and its the same when feeding the dog!

So, back to your pup - i would read my 'making the switch guide' which will tell you in easyterms how to get started - feeding just simply a bit of mince (containing meat and bone) plus some veg SIMPLE - the guide goes on to talk about how to introduce bones safely (starting with easy soft bones like chicken wings) and then as your confidence grows and the pups gets accustomed to the new diet you can start to add variety so that you are feeding something close to my 'weekly menu'

Just remember that RAW feeding is individual so be guided by your pup, if she actively doesnt like something then avoid it as it may not agree with her - though some dogs will show resistance to RAW foods at first, many (especially pups in my experience) take to it with relish from the off !

good luck and remember to ask away if you have any questions, anytime !!!!!

here is the weekly puppy menu (dont worry about the parasite control herbs - they are optional) https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...528.1073741852.134011846787624&type=3&theater

here is the 'making the switch guide' (it starts with 2 pages on teh benefits of RAW feeding but read on to find out how to switch your dog) https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...903.1073741860.134011846787624&type=1&theater


----------



## williams500

Hi All,
I have a nearly 5 month old male leonberger weighing just over 30kgs and have been feeding him raw since we had him. 
He is doing really well but as this is my first time feeding raw I am still getting used to it!
I am currently feeding him 2lb of mince a day ( mixture of either carcass and tripe, economy beef, lamb and chicken etc from MVM) - he has this morning and night and either wings or a whole chicken carcass for lunch.

I just wanted to get some idea about whether this quantity seems ok - he seems to be growing well and I can still just feel his ribs but wanted to get an idea?

Also - I am trying to get veg into his diet - i am mainly boiling swede, parnsip, cabbage and spinach and mashing up but he is not very keen on eating it at all. I only have a hand blender and i find the root veg is too hard for my blender to do. Also i am not sure what consistancy is should end up like? Any advice on what veg and the best way to prep?

I am also wanting to introduce fish - I have been giving him salmon oil with his mince - do I just put some whole sardines/mackeral down or are the bones a chocking hazard due to their size?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!


----------



## DirtyGertie

williams500 said:


> Hi All,
> I have a nearly 5 month old male leonberger weighing just over 30kgs and have been feeding him raw since we had him.
> He is doing really well but as this is my first time feeding raw I am still getting used to it!
> I am currently feeding him 2lb of mince a day ( mixture of either carcass and tripe, economy beef, lamb and chicken etc from MVM) - he has this morning and night and either wings or a whole chicken carcass for lunch.
> 
> I just wanted to get some idea about whether this quantity seems ok - he seems to be growing well and I can still just feel his ribs but wanted to get an idea?
> 
> Also - I am trying to get veg into his diet - i am mainly boiling swede, parnsip, cabbage and spinach and mashing up but he is not very keen on eating it at all. I only have a hand blender and i find the root veg is too hard for my blender to do. Also i am not sure what consistancy is should end up like? Any advice on what veg and the best way to prep?
> 
> I am also wanting to introduce fish - I have been giving him salmon oil with his mince - do I just put some whole sardines/mackeral down or are the bones a chocking hazard due to their size?
> 
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!


I don't have any experience of raw feeding large dogs but if you can just feel his ribs then it sounds about right. What are you basing the amount you feed on? I think for puppies it's either 10% of current weight or 3% of ideal adult weight but I can't be sure as I started my dog on raw at just under a year old and being a small dog she was fully grown.

As for veg, people differ greatly on whether or not they are required. I do add some veg occasionally but I don't stick religously to a routine. I give raw veg, blended as per *this post*. I have a food processor similar to *this* and the blade required is the *knife blade* which should come with the blender. I don't know about cooked veggies, personally I wouldn't bother, if you want to feed veggies then raw is just fine.

Raw fish with bones is fine (they are "soft" bones). I give whole mackerel, salmon chunks, tinned sardines/pilchards/mackerel in oil or tomato sauce. Just feed the same as everything else. I don't bother supplementing with salmon oil because of the fact that I'm using oily fish as a regular part of the diet and my dog shows no signs of needing it.


----------



## williams500

Hi,
I am basing the amount roughly on 3 % of his adult weight ( approx 1.8kg - 2kg) as 10% of his current would be 3kgs a day - which just feels way to much!

Is there any particular veggies you use? I have read that parsley is good as well?

Thanks for the fish advice - will get some sardines to start - how often do you feed fish - is once a week enough?


----------



## DirtyGertie

williams500 said:


> Hi,
> I am basing the amount roughly on 3 % of his adult weight ( approx 1.8kg - 2kg) as 10% of his current would be 3kgs a day - which just feels way to much!
> 
> Is there any particular veggies you use? I have read that parsley is good as well?
> 
> Thanks for the fish advice - will get some sardines to start - how often do you feed fish - is once a week enough?


It sounds like you're getting the amount of food about right. Keep an eye on him. A lot of raw feeders tend to feed by eye. Hard for me as Poppy is a Bichon and has a fluffy coat so you can't really see her shape but I do make sure I can feel her ribs and with her being small I can easily weigh her to make sure I'm keeping her weight stable.

I tend to feed fish once a week and rotate it. Occasionally, if I forget to get something out of the freezer the night before then I'll use one of the tinned fish but that doesn't happen very often.

As for veggies, I just use what I can get in the Co-op or Iceland (the only shops I can get veggies here). So it can be any mix of carrots, parsnip, swede, sweet potato, celery, cabbage, green beans, turnip, cauliflower, spinach, and if there's anything reduced which I might not normally buy such as mange tout, French beans, butternut squash. Just remember no onions, and I never use raw potatoes either. You can also add fruit (no grapes) and I add some nuts too.


----------



## Spookypigs

princesssaskia said:


> Excessive drinking can be a symptom of detox when switching to (some dogs go through greater detox than others so its not unusual that only one dog is affected) this should level out over the course of a week or 2 - However, if it doesnt then I would seriously suggest having her checked out for kidney issues, I am not a fan of conventional vets either (being a pro holistic lady!) but it doesnt mean you have to let the vet treat them just give you a diagnosis - then you can look into alternative treatment (which personally i often find more affective in many cases anyway!)
> 
> As for the amount of meals a day, I agree with DirtieGertie that it is dependent on the breed (and age) of dog. My bullies do best on one meal a day from a year upward and they also have a starvation day each week when just water is offered - other dogs do better on 2 meals, my lurcher x runs around a lot and she does best on 2 meals
> 
> Re the bones - I fully appreciate that new RAW feeders like some guidelines and some people get very hung up on percentages and ratios but personally I find the prey model a good guide - in general look at the size of animals a dog would catch, such as a chciken, duck, pheasant or rabbit and then feed the meat/bones and organ in those rough proportions. Any good meaty bone usually has a good balance of bone and meat but if a meal is particularly bony then simply feed a meaty meal for the next meal to balance it out. Personally I have never weighed anything, i just let the dogs poo guide me (too hard and white = too much bone, too runny = not enough) The odd meal too big or too small or too boney wont kill them (goodness knows some dogs live long enough just eating kibble !!!!!) trust your common sense and all will be well
> 
> smelly farts is another sign of the detox - should also disappear after a few weeks feeding RAW - but as mentioned, dont introduce too many things too quick, especially rish things like fish, eggs and offal
> 
> as for the poo - all mine go morning and eve without fail - poo should be at least 1x a day on a RAW diet


Great advice thank you.

I'm definitely not going to worry about daily percentages, I'm sure the diet will even itself out over subsequent days depending on what I give them.

The drinking seems to be better than it was. They're having bones in the morning now, such as lamb ribs or turkey neck, and then tripe and heart, or mince and kidney in the evening. Very odd though to see a slimy black (tripe) poo come out of the greyhound and a crumbly pale brown from the GSD. The lurcher seems better at somewhere inbetween. I'm fairly sure, because its difficult to monitor, that the GSD is pinching the greyhound's bones. He has had half his teeth pulled so he tends to just suck and nibble rather than consume like the girls. I think I may have to supplement his diet with bonemeal, or more necks.

Any advice on getting bonemeal?


----------



## bella2013

Just a quick query if nyone can answer, Tess is back on raw (YAY!) but i have a query about amount of food, she is nearly four killos and is 6 months old, im assuming at her age she should be on roughly 3% of her weight for food, being 120g a day? is this right it just doesnt seem a lot, she doesn't seem to be hungry and happily eats everything. 

also regarding offal, should it be 10% of her food consumed, so essentially 12g a day? 

if anyone can tell me if this is right or not it would be very helpful, it all just gets a bit confusing the more i look into it :confused1:


----------



## Nicky10

bella2013 said:


> Just a quick query if nyone can answer, Tess is back on raw (YAY!) but i have a query about amount of food, she is nearly four killos and is 6 months old, im assuming at her age she should be on roughly 3% of her weight for food, being 120g a day? is this right it just doesnt seem a lot, she doesn't seem to be hungry and happily eats everything.
> 
> also regarding offal, should it be 10% of her food consumed, so essentially 12g a day?
> 
> if anyone can tell me if this is right or not it would be very helpful, it all just gets a bit confusing the more i look into it :confused1:


About 3% is a good start, some smaller dogs can need more but if she's staying at a good weight I wouldn't worry. It doesn't seem like much but they use most of it compared to some dog foods.

You should feed 5% liver and 5% other secreting organ kidney is the easiest but there's also pancreas etc. The diet doesn't have to be completely balanced everyday I tend to feed the organ allowance for the week in 2 meals.


----------



## DirtyGertie

bella2013 said:


> Just a quick query if nyone can answer, Tess is back on raw (YAY!) but i have a query about amount of food, she is nearly four killos and is 6 months old, im assuming at her age she should be on roughly 3% of her weight for food, being 120g a day? is this right it just doesnt seem a lot, she doesn't seem to be hungry and happily eats everything.
> 
> also regarding offal, should it be 10% of her food consumed, so essentially 12g a day?
> 
> if anyone can tell me if this is right or not it would be very helpful, it all just gets a bit confusing the more i look into it :confused1:


I would have said that at 6 months old she would still be classed as a puppy and the puppy raw feeding guide lines are 10% of current weight or 2%-3% of ideal adult weight.

Poppy is nearly 4 years old and weighs 5.5kg and her weight stays stable at approx 150g raw per day.

I spread the offal allowance over a month and don't give it all in one meal. I give a half and half offal/meat meal and make sure it's on the same day as a boney meal so over a month she has five meals which have liver added and five meals which have kidney added.


----------



## SpiderFX

After watching the food programme next week, I'm thinking of giving Bruno a go on this diet. I've been in touch with Honey's. Just wondering whether it will be a lot more expensive than feeding him Millie's grub? He's 8 months and weighs about 26Kg.


----------



## DirtyGertie

SpiderFX said:


> After watching the food programme next week, I'm thinking of giving Bruno a go on this diet. I've been in touch with Honey's. Just wondering whether it will be a lot more expensive than feeding him Millie's grub? He's 8 months and weighs about 26Kg.


I think Honeys is quite expensive (their figures - Cocker Spaniel £1.65 a day, Golden Retriever £3.10 a day) but it is organic. If organic is not top of your priority list then you can feed raw for a lot less than that, there are other companies that do a "complete" raw and, of course, you could "DIY" which is even less expensive. Not sure how Honeys compares with what you're currently feeding.


----------



## SpiderFX

Just been checking the prices and I think it will work out very expensive. The other alternative you mentioned, DIY would be a bit of a problem as I don't have any free space for another freezer.


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## DirtyGertie

SpiderFX said:


> Just been checking the prices and I think it will work out very expensive. The other alternative you mentioned, DIY would be a bit of a problem as I don't have any free space for another freezer.


You don't have to have a massive amount of space. You'd need freezer space for Honeys so you probably could use someone else's complete or even balanced minces (80/10/10) and buy a few chicken wings or ribs. Things like liver, kidney and heart from your local butcher or the supermarket probably compare price-wise with getting them from a raw supplier so you wouldn't need to keep much of those in, just buy when necessary. One freezer drawer might be enough depending on how much you need to buy for, say, a month at a time.


----------



## SpiderFX

Thanks for that. Excuse me for being stupid, but whats 80/10/10?


----------



## bella2013

Thank you. 
I found when she was younger that if i fed 10% of her weight at the time she didn't eat it all and just played with it, she went off raw when she was teething, but last few days she's been getting 60g twice a day and she's eating it all. i'll monitor her weight the next few weeks and see if i need to give her some more

i think i'll feed the offal over the space of a few meals and build it up gradually. just need to try and get some more freezer space and get more variety of meats, back to the butchers


----------



## Spookypigs

SpiderFX said:


> Thanks for that. Excuse me for being stupid, but whats 80/10/10?


80% meat, 10% offal, 10% bone is considered a balanced diet.

Of course that's far easier said than done so I feed whatever, based on what there is in the house at the time and then study their poo looking for the right colour, consistency and malleability baring in mind that one of them slipped into the cellar and pinched a turkey neck. Tonight everything looks a bit black and sloppy so less tripe and more bone tomorrow.

I haven't studied poo this much since my daughter was a baby. :lol:


----------



## DirtyGertie

SpiderFX said:


> Thanks for that. Excuse me for being stupid, but whats 80/10/10?


80/10/10 is the normal ratio of meat/bones/offal when feeding a raw diet. Some minces already come with this ratio, e.g. *Durham Animal Feeds*. I started off with minces and chicken wings but now I'm more confident I prefer to feed chunks of meat/tripe/fish and add offal in the form of liver and kidney and bones such as chicken/duck wings, lamb or pork ribs, chicken/turkey/duck necks, chicken carcasses, bone-in rabbit. Those types of bones are beneficial for dental health which bone-in minces can't offer.

You're not stupid, you need to ask questions and do some research before switching over to raw. It took me weeks to read, re-read, ask questions and fully understand what it was about before I changed my dog over. If you think you might want to consider a raw diet then I'd go to the beginning of this thread and read the first few pages to get an understanding of what raw feeding is about, what is required and in what ratios, how to introduce it, etc .


----------



## DirtyGertie

bella2013 said:


> Thank you.
> I found when she was younger that if i fed 10% of her weight at the time she didn't eat it all and just played with it, she went off raw when she was teething, but last few days she's been getting 60g twice a day and she's eating it all. i'll monitor her weight the next few weeks and see if i need to give her some more
> 
> i think i'll feed the offal over the space of a few meals and build it up gradually. just need to try and get some more freezer space and get more variety of meats, back to the butchers


I'm not sure what your breed is or what the normal adult weight is but you could do as you say, continue feeding her what she will happily eat and weigh her every couple of weeks. Once she's reached her adult weight then you can settle on an amount that will keep her weight stable.

Don't forget to start off the offal in a tiny finger nail size piece and build it up gradually. My dog will happily eat raw lamb's liver but not raw ox liver, nor does she like raw kidney so with both of those I pour boiling water over and let stand for a couple of minutes then cool and add to the other meat part of that meal and she'll happily eat it that way. Or it could be flash fried.


----------



## princesssaskia

SpiderFX said:


> Thanks for that. Excuse me for being stupid, but whats 80/10/10?


Not stupid at all - 80/10/10 is a ratio for RAW feeding which recommends 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% offal (with 5% of that being liver and the other 5% something like kidney - heart doesnt count as offal since although its strictly an organ, its actually classed as 'muscle meat' as far as RAW feeding is concerned and therefore can be fed as a part of the 80%)

Try not to get too hung up on percentages though - thats what confuses most new RAW feeders, try to remember you dont weigh and worry about every little thing you feed yourself and a dog wont drop down dead if each meal isnt 'perfect' so long as you get a good balance over the course of a week or so

Basically you want to aim to feed mostly meat and bone. I actually feed more bone than 10% as I follow a small 'prey animal' guide, which is more like 50 / 60% meat and 20 / 30 % bone, 10% offal and 10% 'stomach contents' (the fruit and veg i add simulates the stomach contents) - Try and feed at least 4 different meats a week - Most people stick to things like beef, chicken, lamb, turkey and duck but I also feed a lot of game (whole and minced) including venison, rabbit, pheasant and pigeon

You can feed the meat/bone ration as minced carcass if you are worried about whole bones (minced carcass will contain the calcium your dog requires, but as the bone is minced it wont serve to clean the teeth and gums or exercise the jaw)

Personally I find a combination of mince and whole meaty bones is best - so for example my adult dogs are all fed ONCE a day (around 5pm) First of all they have a small portion of puréed fruit/veg mixed with a small amount of tripe or mince (to encourage them to eat it) I also add anti parasitic herbs/foods to this on a regular basis (such as either freshly ground or chopped herbs and spices, garlic, cyder vinegar or feed grade diatomaceous earth). Once they have all polished off their 'starter' they are then given their meaty bones - the younger or smaller dogs will be given wings or necks or a small portion of whole rabbit or pheasant etc. The bigger dogs will be given bigger carcasses or a big slab of ribs or half a rabbit etc etc

Twice a week, I mix a tin of oily fish through the veg INSTEAD of mince and twice a week (on a different day to the fish) I add a RAW egg to the veg mix AS WELL AS the mince and herbs etc

As for the fruit and veg - as has been mentioned, it is optional but personally i think its a good source of vitamins if your dog will eat it. I used to prepare big batches of veg for my dogs and freeze it in small portions, but finally decided this was taking too much time and freezer space, plus i was bulk buying them 'cheap' veg which i wasnt really happy with. So, nowadays, since I eat organic veg myself, I simply save my veg trimmings each day - plus apple cores etc and then i lightly steam the lot and blend to a mush - then i feed this as the daily veg ration - I have found this a great way to ensure fantastic quality, freshness and variety of fruit/veg (provided you eat healthily as i do  )

As for the offal, you only need to feed a small amount each week (roughly 10% of the diet remember) So you could add it to the mince/veg once or twice each week. Most people feed lamb or chicken liver/kidney) In my case, because i feed lots of whole game (like rabbit and pheasant) I use the game offal instead and simply rotate which dog gets a bit each week - I love this because i dont just get to feed the liver and kidney but also the lungs, heart, pancreas, brain and other organs !

My pups eat a breakfast too of course, this is a smaller meal, either a bit of minced carcass or some chicken wings etc

I also promote a fast day each week - I feed the adult dogs (from 2yrs upward) sunday at 5pm as usual and then they get nothing but water until 5pm tuesday. The older pups (8 months to 1 or 2 years - depending on breed) only do a half day, so they would eat sunday eve, miss monday breakfast and then eat again monday eve. The younger pups are not fasted at all !

The key with RAW feeding is to find the routine that suits and your dog best - some do better on 2 meals a day, some 1. Some dogs eat everything you put in front of them, others are fussy - so long as there is enough variety then dont worry if there are one or 2 things your dog wont eat - I would add that its good if some of your mince or meaty bones includes a good amount of blood - blood provides vital nutrients

The final thing I will say is that remember quality is important. RAW fed dogs eat less, because they are getting better nutrition, so it makes sense to feed them the best you can afford. Quality over quantity ! Cheap or 'economy' meat comes from intensively reared animals which often lived stressed, unhappy lives, this is reflected in the quality of their 'meat'. They are also usually fed routine antibiotics, hormones or growth promoters - none of which make them 'good eating' for your dog. As far as you can source fresh, organic and real 'free range' meat - local farm shops and butchers and game keepers can be an invaluable source.

Most RAW feeders spend years cultivating relationships and sourcing affordable quality products. For example

I use MVM (Manifold Valley Meats Products, Prices & Deliveries » Manifold Valley Meats) for MINCED PHEASANT and MINCED GAME - This is good quality 'bloody' minced carcass which I know they source from wild animals not farmed ones so its naturally free range / organic and its a good price at around 75p for a half kilo

I also use Nuturing by Nature (Nurturing by nature natural dog food barf diet ) The food is great quality but more expensive then MVM, so I use them only for Free range MINCED CHICKEN, MINCED TURKEY AND MINCED LAMB. They also do affordable portions of various minced OILY FISH

I also buy DRIED SPRATS as training treats from Nuturing by Nature, as well as packs of their MARROW BONES which are a perfect size and are from free range grass fed animals

The natural Pet Pantry Is another great source of free range and organic meat (Natural Pet food - additive free pet food) I use them for GREEN TRIPE, GOAT BONES, DUCK CARCASS and DUCK FEET

I also buy dried liver from the Pet Pantry, again as training treats

Nuturing by Nature and the Pets Pantry are a little more expensive but you are paying for real free range and organic meat - a little goes a long way remember

I use my Gamekeeper for WHOLE RABBITS, PHEASANT, PARTRIDGE, PIGEON and for VENISON RIBS or VENISON TRIM (I get all this very cheap) I also feed road kill when I find it !!!! 

I use a lovely local organic farm shop for LAMB BONES AND CHICKEN CARCASS at £1 a kilo !!!!!! I also get Organic eggs from them and bags of chicken feet and necks (I dont buy wings as they are too expensive when free range/organic)

The veg and fruit of course I supply myself - as well as the anti-parasitic foods and herbs, as these are things I always have in my cupboard for myself !

I have done the math and honestly I feed 3 medium/large dogs for around £25 ish each week which I think is very reasonable considering they are eating free range/organic food - remember less popular cuts cost less so its better to use less popular cuts of organic meat (like necks and backs) rather than popular cuts like chicken wings etc

xxxxxxxxx (sorry for the essay guys ha ha) :lol:


----------



## Westdale

We've just started feeding our dog Nutriment raw food (approx. one month), her poo's have become very hard and dry and today we had to take her to the vet as she had started shuffling her bottom and needed her glands expressing. The vet had told us they were quite bad and probably because of her diet being too wet and that dry food is much better because of this. 

Has anyone encountered this and are there any tips to stop this happening again?, should we add a bit of mixer or add extra veg, she does love eating carrots do you think this could help the situation?

Thanks


----------



## Mariek76

Hi everyone

I'm looking for some advice for starting a raw diet for our puppy. I'm a little bemused by all the info online about how much to feed. Our puppy (Jethro) is a 14 week old newfoundland/st Bernard cross. He weighed in at 41lbs (18.9kg) at the vets last week. He's not a fat puppy (I can feel his ribs/spine okay) he's just big (Gigantapuppy is his nickname round here. Lol).

I'm just a little confused with him being a giant breed about what percentage of his weight we would need to feed him. It seems mostly an average of about 5% of his body weight is the recommendation which would be about 900-1000g. Is that a reasonable amount? 

Any advice gratefully received!

Thanks


----------



## Mariek76

Hi everyone

I'm looking for some advice for starting a raw diet for our puppy. I'm a little bemused by all the info online about how much to feed. Our puppy (Jethro) is a 14 week old newfoundland/st Bernard cross. He weighed in at 41lbs (18.9kg) at the vets last week. He's not a fat puppy (I can feel his ribs/spine okay) he's just big (Gigantapuppy is his nickname round here. Lol).

I'm just a little confused with him being a giant breed about what percentage of his weight we would need to feed him. It seems mostly an average of about 5% of his body weight is the recommendation which would be about 900-1000g. Is that a reasonable amount?

Any advice gratefully received!









Thanks


----------



## DirtyGertie

Mariek76 said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> I'm looking for some advice for starting a raw diet for our puppy. I'm a little bemused by all the info online about how much to feed. Our puppy (Jethro) is a 14 week old newfoundland/st Bernard cross. He weighed in at 41lbs (18.9kg) at the vets last week. He's not a fat puppy (I can feel his ribs/spine okay) he's just big (Gigantapuppy is his nickname round here. Lol).
> 
> I'm just a little confused with him being a giant breed about what percentage of his weight we would need to feed him. It seems mostly an average of about 5% of his body weight is the recommendation which would be about 900-1000g. Is that a reasonable amount?
> 
> Any advice gratefully received!
> 
> Thanks


I've not raw fed a puppy, my dog was about 11 months old when I started, but from what I remember when researching I understand for puppies it is either 10% of their current weight or 2%-3% of the ideal adult weight of the breed. I didn't see anything that said giant breeds would be any different. You could, of course, get him weighed regularly to ensure he is putting on weight and make sure he's not getting fat by ensuring you can still feel his ribs.


----------



## Mariek76

Thanks for the reply 

We've decided to bite the bullet and make a start with a transition to raw. We stopped by pets at home this morning and picked up some of the nature's menu chicken mince (does anyone know if that contains bone? It says "just meat" on the package). I know it's probably not the best but we thought we'd start off with it to see what Jethro will make of it. DH and I are both a bit reticent on the chicken bone issue (years of being told not to do it I guess) but if he takes to the mince I suspect we'll eventually get brave enough to move to whole chicken pieces. Probably not wings though as he's such a behemoth already! 

Just a quick question on the veg mix. Do people generally cook their veg or just whizz it up in the processor? 

So many questions! Lol. Bet you get sick of answering the same stuff over and over!

xMx


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## DirtyGertie

Mariek76 said:


> Thanks for the reply
> 
> We've decided to bite the bullet and make a start with a transition to raw. We stopped by pets at home this morning and picked up some of the nature's menu chicken mince (does anyone know if that contains bone? It says "just meat" on the package). I know it's probably not the best but we thought we'd start off with it to see what Jethro will make of it. DH and I are both a bit reticent on the chicken bone issue (years of being told not to do it I guess) but if he takes to the mince I suspect we'll eventually get brave enough to move to whole chicken pieces. Probably not wings though as he's such a behemoth already!
> 
> Just a quick question on the veg mix. Do people generally cook their veg or just whizz it up in the processor?
> 
> So many questions! Lol. Bet you get sick of answering the same stuff over and over!
> 
> xMx


I've not used Natures Menu so am not 100% sure. I've just got their website up Raw food for dogs and raw food diet info | Natures Menu. If you scroll down you'll see Just Minces and Freeflow Minces. Is it either of those? Both of them say the chicken ones include ground bone.

With veg I just whizz up a selection of raw veggies, maybe a bit of fruit, some nuts and other stuff as in this post using my food processor with the knife blade attachment, that will get it small enough. I've never cooked veg for my dog.


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## JacF

Thank you I have read your posts and they will be really useful. I've just changed my 9 month old Bichon Frisé Wilson onto a raw diet and he loves it. At the moment using Turkey mince and mixed veg together and chicken wings. I've also sent for some supplements, calcium and plant extract. 
We've had so much trouble with food since getting him. He came on kibble that wasn't a great make, stopped eating it after a stomach upset when the vet provided a gastrointestinal tinned wet food, got skin irritations and vet advised salmon and potato food, spent a fortune on different types, changed to turkey and veg wet and dry food and he would eat it only when hungry and never seemed to enjoy it. He never got excited when food was put out just looked and walked away. 
Now he can't wait to be fed, I feed him twice a day, and he eats it up straight away and loves to eat the chicken wings once his mince has gone. Only been on diet for 3 days so hopefully this new found enjoyment will continue.


----------



## DirtyGertie

JacF said:


> Thank you I have read your posts and they will be really useful. I've just changed my 9 month old Bichon Frisé Wilson onto a raw diet and he loves it. At the moment using Turkey mince and mixed veg together and chicken wings. I've also sent for some supplements, calcium and plant extract.
> We've had so much trouble with food since getting him. He came on kibble that wasn't a great make, stopped eating it after a stomach upset when the vet provided a gastrointestinal tinned wet food, got skin irritations and vet advised salmon and potato food, spent a fortune on different types, changed to turkey and veg wet and dry food and he would eat it only when hungry and never seemed to enjoy it. He never got excited when food was put out just looked and walked away.
> Now he can't wait to be fed, I feed him twice a day, and he eats it up straight away and loves to eat the chicken wings once his mince has gone. Only been on diet for 3 days so hopefully this new found enjoyment will continue.


Ooooh, another Bichon (photos please ).

Poppy was never interested in her food when I first got her, she came to me with a supply of Eukanuba from the breeder but was very reluctant to eat it. I gradually changed her to a different, better brand but she still wasn't keen. I then added a topper of Naturediet and she was a bit more interested for a while, then I had to start adding a bit of grated cheese on top just to get her to start eating. I put her onto raw at about 11 months old and that was when she started sitting and waiting for me to feed her, no more calling her or bribing her, she loved it straight away.

I'm just wondering, does your mince have bone in (if it's DAF mince then it does, it has 10% bone)? If so keep an eye out that he isn't getting too much bone if he's also having chicken wings every day. Poppy doesn't need the guideline 10% bone, it's too much for her and she gets very hard, difficult to pass poops.


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## JacF

Hi, I don't know what DAF mince is. I've just bought turkey mince from Asda. If you can advise me of anything please do. I've also sent for some ground bone to add about one teaspoon is advised.


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## JacF

Some pics of Wilson, (well I hope so not sure how to put them on) who tends to do naughty things if he wants your attention and doesn't get it, likes to be as dirty as possible and who was groomed recently after I had tried myself and failed miserably. Groomer said it was the best he could do after my attempt and can't wait till he can groom him to look like a proper Bichon.


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## JacF

Didn't like the fact I went for a bath rather than play with him, this was the result


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## DirtyGertie

JacF said:


> Hi, I don't know what DAF mince is. *I've just bought turkey mince from Asda.* If you can advise me of anything please do. I've also sent for some ground bone to add about one teaspoon is advised.


Ah right, OK, there wont be any bone in it then .

DAF (Durham Animal Feeds) mince is "balanced" as in 80% meat/10% bone/10% offal. A lot of new BARF feeders start out with these balanced minces, which is what I did. When I got a lot more confident I dropped the minces and I now buy various meats/bones/offal from raw suppliers and tailor Poppy's diet how it suits her best.

Have you done any research into BARF? The first few pages of this particular thread are very informative and helpful and well worth a read. One of our members did this diary a couple of years ago which you might find interesting. Here's a list of specialist raw food suppliers in various parts of the country, some only deliver locally but some will courier to anywhere in the UK.

If you give raw meaty bones there shouldn't really be any need to supplement with ground bone. Poop watching is the best way to see if they're getting too much bone - too hard, crumbly, difficult to pass = too much bone, too soft = not enough bone.

The only advice I would give is research, understand, take it slow, introduce new proteins gradually and if you're unsure just come on here and ask questions, lots of us raw feeders here and we're all happy to help.

I personally use Raw2Paw mainly (sorry, can't link, I'm on my laptop and for some reason their site doesn't load properly on it). They supply DAF products plus others so there is a good selection and they are quick to reply to queries, quick to despatch and their customer service is excellent.


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## JacF

After being groomed (hacked) by me very badly, the groomer did his best and can't wait to get him looking like he should.


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## DirtyGertie

JacF said:


> Some pics of Wilson, (well I hope so not sure how to put them on) who tends to do naughty things if he wants your attention and doesn't get it, likes to be as dirty as possible and who was groomed recently after I had tried myself and failed miserably. Groomer said it was the best he could do after my attempt and can't wait till he can groom him to look like a proper Bichon.


Ooooh, mucky pup . Bet he had fun :lol:.



JacF said:


> Didn't like the fact I went for a bath rather than play with him, this was the result


I shouldn't but :lol:, just look at that face!


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## DirtyGertie

JacF said:


> After being groomed (hacked) by me very badly, the groomer did his best and can't wait to get him looking like he should.


You did a better job than I could have done. I've once attempted to trim Poppy's ears and they ended up looking like a dogs dinner :lol:. I'm happy enough to brush her every day (keeps her lovely and fluffy and reasonably clean), don't mind giving her the odd bath although she's not too keen on my drying her, but a proper groom - no thanks :frown2:.


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## Mariek76

I've just stuck some root veg (carrots, parsnip and swede) and some curly kale in the processor and whizzed that up. Smells quite nice actually. LOL.

How much would you normally put it? I assume it should be mostly meat. The chicken mince packages are 400g I think so will a couple of good spoonfuls of veg be enough?


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## DirtyGertie

Mariek76 said:


> I've just stuck some root veg (carrots, parsnip and swede) and some curly kale in the processor and whizzed that up. Smells quite nice actually. LOL.
> 
> How much would you normally put it? I assume it should be mostly meat. The chicken mince packages are 400g I think so will a couple of good spoonfuls of veg be enough?


I don't give veg at every meal. I buy in a variety and whizz it all up then freeze in ice cube trays and small takeaway type boxes. I don't have any in my freezer at the moment but when I do I will give one cube with a meal a couple of times a week. Poppy is only small and has 150g of raw a day split between two meals. I tend to give veggies when she's had, say, a chicken wing or rib for one meal and it's bigger than half her daily allowance at say 100g. That means her second meal is smaller so I add veg to bulk it out so it's a reasonable size meal rather than a titchy 50g.

There are a few companies supplying what they call "complete" meals with veg in and I think it's coming across as it's an essential part of a raw diet whereas it actually isn't. Dogs don't _need_ veggies and it's personal choice if the owner wants to add them.


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## Mariek76

Well, I can safely say I've never seen Jethro demolish a meal with such gusto! :thumbup1: He polished off his chicken mince in about a minute and looked at me with a "more please" expression. Usually he looks like he's enduring his kibble meal time!

Now we shall sit back and await to see if we have any explody poop ill-effects! LOL.

Thanks everyone for the advice so far.


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## rottiepointerhouse

Hi. I've recently started feeding raw to my 3 dogs, a rottie, a GSP and an english pointer. I'm using Natural Instinct and Nuturingbynature minces and giving recreational bones. So far they have also had some chicken necks and lamb ribs and I have chicken carcass to try. However 2 out of 3 dogs were a bit sick during the night after the ribs and this contained some sharp bits of bone. Is this a common thing with the ribs? I'm a bit anxious about giving them more.


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## princesssaskia

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Hi. I've recently started feeding raw to my 3 dogs, a rottie, a GSP and an english pointer. I'm using Natural Instinct and Nuturingbynature minces and giving recreational bones. So far they have also had some chicken necks and lamb ribs and I have chicken carcass to try. However 2 out of 3 dogs were a bit sick during the night after the ribs and this contained some sharp bits of bone. Is this a common thing with the ribs? I'm a bit anxious about giving them more.


Dogs that have been kibble fed for a while typically have reduced digestive capabilities. New RAW feeders sometimes get into trouble by enthusiastically feeding bones that are too large or too hard for dogs that are still getting used to this new way of feeding. The result can be that these dogs vomit up shards of bone or poop them out and the owner understandably gets concerned

I always advise that dogs new to RAW are fed soft bones like chicken or duck wings for a good while first - I then progress to whole chicken or duck carcass, or whole game like rabbit or pheasant etc. I would not advise feeding lamb bones or ribs etc until a few months into the diet

Chicken backs can actually have quite hard bones in them too, for some of my younger dogs I bash the backs a bit with a mallet, just break them down a bit before feeding :thumbup1:


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## rottiepointerhouse

Thank you so much for the prompt reply. That has put my mind at rest. Will leave the rest of the ribs in the freezer for a few months. That is the only concern we have come up against so far, otherwise its going really well


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## Mariek76

Good afternoon lovely pet forum people. Hope Monday is treating you well.

I have a few more questions if that's okay.

I've (happily :thumbup confirmed today that DAF deliver to my area so I'm looking into putting in an order for delivery on the 21st. I'm trying to sort out something resembling a menu so I can work out what to order and in what quantities.

I'm hoping to go with mostly minces (I suspect the majority will tell me that's not ideal but it's better for us, at least whilst we're find our feet). So, my question is about the feeding ratios. I'm sure I've read on a couple of threads that the DAF mince is 10% bone for the most part. So, is it feasible to go with mostly chicken, tripe and beef mince (introducing the tripe and beef slowly) and then on the days where there's a tripe meal (which I assume has no bone in the mince?) go with a slightly more chunky bone meal for another meal (i.e. chicken necks).

I suspect we'll keep him on three meals a day for a while (he's only 15 weeks today so still only young (if not little! LOL).

I feel like I've opened a whole world of confusion! LOL. I swear I spent all night dreaming about raw food last night :yikes:

xMx


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## DirtyGertie

Mariek76 said:


> Good afternoon lovely pet forum people. Hope Monday is treating you well.
> 
> I have a few more questions if that's okay.
> 
> I've (happily :thumbup confirmed today that DAF deliver to my area so I'm looking into putting in an order for delivery on the 21st. I'm trying to sort out something resembling a menu so I can work out what to order and in what quantities.
> 
> I'm hoping to go with mostly minces (I suspect the majority will tell me that's not ideal but it's better for us, at least whilst we're find our feet). So, my question is about the feeding ratios. I'm sure I've read on a couple of threads that the DAF mince is 10% bone for the most part. So, is it feasible to go with mostly chicken, tripe and beef mince (introducing the tripe and beef slowly) and then on the days where there's a tripe meal (which I assume has no bone in the mince?) go with a slightly more chunky bone meal for another meal (i.e. chicken necks).
> 
> I suspect we'll keep him on three meals a day for a while (he's only 15 weeks today so still only young (if not little! LOL).
> 
> I feel like I've opened a whole world of confusion! LOL. I swear I spent all night dreaming about raw food last night :yikes:
> 
> xMx


I started off with just minces and chicken wings, it's a good way to get started until you feel confident to move on.

With the mince that says it's just tripe (as opposed to a tripe & something mix) then they have two I think - Best Beef Tripe which is wholly beef tripe and Minced Tripe with is 50% beef tripe and 50% lamb tripe so there would be no bone in either of those. So you could go for boney meals like chicken wings etc., on those days. Just keep an eye on poops to make sure he's not getting a bone overload (too hard/difficult to pass = too much bone).

Also be aware (and this is for further down the line) that their liver content is not guaranteed to be 5% (as part of the 10% offal). I queried this with them and it all depends on the carcass they're mincing, it varies and could be as little as 2% liver.

Lucky you living in their delivery area!


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## Mariek76

Well, I managed to get over my bone-in uncertainty today. Just given Jethro his first chicken quarter. He's munching and crunching away as happy as a pig in poop! :thumbup:

Now the next question.....how do I get him to keep the darn thing in his bowl! LOL.



Off to disinfect the kitchen floor:yikes:


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## DirtyGertie

Mariek76 said:


> Well, I managed to get over my bone-in uncertainty today. Just given Jethro his first chicken quarter. He's munching and crunching away as happy as a pig in poop! :thumbup:
> 
> Now the next question.....how do I get him to keep the darn thing in his bowl! LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> Off to disinfect the kitchen floor:yikes:


What a scrumptious fluffball :001_tt1:.

Oh, keeping a bone in a bowl - ermmmmmm, probably not possible, certainly not at my house! I put a towel down and Poppy lies on that then I wash the towel, if I had a washable floor I'd do the same as you.


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## rottiepointerhouse

Lovely lovely big pupster :001_wub:

Our 3 get separated when they have a carcass or marrowbone, one goes to the lounge, one to the hall and one stays in the kitchen. I've got tiles but with rugs everywhere so I use old quilt covers to cover up the rugs and they just seem to stay on them.


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## princesssaskia

I feed my 3 their bones outdoors when the weather is fine - so much easier to hose down after bone / carcass munching - if the weather isnt fine (which seems like most days at the moment !) then they eat off the floor in the kitchen and i simply mop it clean after - good excuse for cleaning my floor !!! I tried putting mats and rugs down etc, but they NEVER stay on them !!!!!


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## rottiepointerhouse

So its just over a week since I started my lot on totally raw feeding. I can't quite believe it but they are all so quiet and content. So quiet I started to wonder if they are ill. The pointers have plenty of energy on their walks though so hubbie tells me but Indie rottie is still on pen/small room restriction so hard to tell with her but she is so chilled its amazing. Is this a normal reaction? is it just temporary? There has been no yapping/fighting or walls of death around the furniture its been bliss


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## Nicky10

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So its just over a week since I started my lot on totally raw feeding. I can't quite believe it but they are all so quiet and content. So quiet I started to wonder if they are ill. The pointers have plenty of energy on their walks though so hubbie tells me but Indie rottie is still on pen/small room restriction so hard to tell with her but she is so chilled its amazing. Is this a normal reaction? is it just temporary? There has been no yapping/fighting or walls of death around the furniture its been bliss


Carbs can cause short bursts of energy, protein is more slow release. So if you had them on a carb heavy diet before you will see the difference. Plus raw gives them more of a workout to eat.


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## Mariek76

We've noticed Jethro is more chilled for the most part. My Dad has him for a couple of hours in the afternoon and has commented he's been much less boisterous when he's been there (for which my Dad's 9yo Westie is epically grateful I'm sure!


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## princesssaskia

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So its just over a week since I started my lot on totally raw feeding. I can't quite believe it but they are all so quiet and content. So quiet I started to wonder if they are ill. The pointers have plenty of energy on their walks though so hubbie tells me but Indie rottie is still on pen/small room restriction so hard to tell with her but she is so chilled its amazing. Is this a normal reaction? is it just temporary? There has been no yapping/fighting or walls of death around the furniture its been bliss


As well as the protein being a slower, more consistent release of energy than a carb heavy diet, this 'calmer attitude' can also be due to the fact that RAW food is not laced with additives and other nasties that can reek havoc on a dogs temperament and energy levels. Many owners who switch their dogs from kibble to RAW are amazed at the changes in behaviour, dogs are typically calm yet 'alert', with higher levels of concentration and enthusiasm for their work. In fact, many behaviourists now recommend switching to a RAW (or home prepared) diet as their first step in dealing with 'problem' dogs !


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## Goodie10

Hi, I've been pointed over here from the puppy thread, I'm seriously considering raw for my puppy when I get him in a few weeks. He is a miniature dachshund and will be 8 weeks when I get him. I'm mainly concerned that I'll have to feed such small amounts and so getting the ratios right of muscle/bone/offal might be hard. He should grow to about 5kg so 2.5% of that is 125g per day. Would the easiest way to do it be to feed the complete pre packed stuff like Nature's menu? Also concerned with storage as my freezer isn't huge. 

Greatful for any advice.


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## DirtyGertie

Goodie10 said:


> Hi, I've been pointed over here from the puppy thread, I'm seriously considering raw for my puppy when I get him in a few weeks. He is a miniature dachshund and will be 8 weeks when I get him. I'm mainly concerned that I'll have to feed such small amounts and so getting the ratios right of muscle/bone/offal might be hard. He should grow to about 5kg so 2.5% of that is 125g per day. Would the easiest way to do it be to feed the complete pre packed stuff like Nature's menu? Also concerned with storage as my freezer isn't huge.
> 
> Greatful for any advice.


I have a Bichon who is 5.5kg and she gets 150g per day. It's quite easy once you get the hang of it. I started off on balanced minces (80% meat/10% bone/10% offal) but the liver content couldn't be guaranted as it depended on whatever was in the carcass that was minced. I eventually changed over to chunks of meat and bones such as ribs, necks, wings, and liver and kidney for the offal. She doesn't need 10% bone, it makes her poos to hard and difficult to pass.

I just work out what she needs over 10 days, times it by three to give a month's worth of meals. So 150g daily x 30 = 4500g per month. Offal is 450g per month (split between liver and kidney), and then I work out her meals. I don't give an complete offal meal as it is too much for her so I mix half offal and half meat and give 45g each time so that means 10 offal mix meals within the month. I know that she needs a boney meal every two or three days (I poop watch and add an extra bone meal or take one off if necessary) then the rest are meat meals. I give an offal meal on the days she has a boney meal. Some people find they need a more bone heavy diet, just depends on the dog.

You might feel more comfortable starting with minces until you're confident but don't forget they need bones for dental health. Chicken wings are good to start with and lamb ribs are a nice size for a small dog. The meals look really small but it really is enough.

As for freezer space, it depends on how you buy it. I can't get anything local so have to rely on online suppliers and having a courier delivery so Poppy has her own three drawer under-counter freezer and a very small chest freezer for her bones and I stock up well to save on delivery charges. I'd say I've probably got enough to feed her for the best part of a year at the moment as I've just had a couple of deliveries. I'm lucky enough to have a sort of storage room where the freezers are so they don't take up any kitchen space.


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## Goodie10

Thanks so much! 

I think I would start with the minces - I think there's a supplier round here and also I'm near a big [email protected] So the chicken wings or necks or whatever - say a chicken wing weighs 60g (just a wild guess) I'd feed one in the morning and at night? And that would be the right ratio for the day? And I could do that a couple of times a week and do the minces others? And as long as they got a little offal? And am I right in thinking heart doesn't count as offal?

I know it's probably easy once you know what you're doing its just confusing!

So I would probably keep him on his kibble for a few days till he settles then just swap over?

I live in a flat so no room for storing large amounts. I will have by then an upright fridge freezer so I could portion it up in bags or something.

And what about a bone for chewing - like if I'm out for a while or just as a treat? Would that be over and above his requirements?

If I got stuff reduced from Morrisons or whatever - they always seem to have reduced offal etc do I have to freeze it first?

Sorry, questions questions questions!


----------



## DirtyGertie

Goodie10 said:


> Thanks so much!
> 
> I think I would start with the minces - I think there's a supplier round here and also I'm near a big [email protected] So the chicken wings or necks or whatever - say a chicken wing weighs 60g (just a wild guess) I'd feed one in the morning and at night? And that would be the right ratio for the day? And I could do that a couple of times a week and do the minces others? And as long as they got a little offal? And am I right in thinking heart doesn't count as offal?
> 
> I know it's probably easy once you know what you're doing its just confusing!
> 
> So I would probably keep him on his kibble for a few days till he settles then just swap over?
> 
> I live in a flat so no room for storing large amounts. I will have by then an upright fridge freezer so I could portion it up in bags or something.
> 
> And what about a bone for chewing - like if I'm out for a while or just as a treat? Would that be over and above his requirements?
> 
> If I got stuff reduced from Morrisons or whatever - they always seem to have reduced offal etc do I have to freeze it first?
> 
> Sorry, questions questions questions!


Just a thought, first of all, I'm not sure if you've done any research but the first few pages of this thread are worth reading until you understand all about raw feeding. Took me a few weeks of reading and research before I took the plunge.

I wouldn't feed bone for both meals a day (sorry, I'm talking about an adult dog who would be on two meals, realise yours is a puppy), I'd feed one bone meal and one meat meal. But it's whatever suits your dog. Some dogs are fine with more bone and a chicken wing has meat and bone. You'd need to poop watch to see if he's getting too much bone, take into account that if you get a balanced mince there will be some bone in that, but a boneless mince then you could probably feed more bone meals.

If you're going to [email protected] then Prize Choice mince isn't the best so you might want to see what else you can get. I'm not near one so don't know what they sell but did have some PC mince at the very beginning and it wasn't good .

Chicken wings come in all sizes, I rarely get them as small as 60g. They can be anything like a rare 70g up to about 120g. I just take that off her daily meal allowance and the other meal is made up of whatever allowance is left and then I'll add some blended veg to bulk it up and she thinks she's had a normal meal .

You need to start off with just one protein, e.g. chicken and keep on that for a week or so. Then add a second protein, e.g. tripe, for a week. And so on. That's so you can see if there's anything he's sensitive to and causes any type of reaction. Offal is usually left as the last thing to be introduced and starts off a very tiny amount (finger nail size) and gradually built up. Heart is muscle meat so yes, you're right .

I swapped over straight away, no messing. Kibble yesterday, raw today and from now on (that was three years ago ).

Bones for chewing? Don't leave a dog unsupervised with a bone. I don't give recreational bones (apart from a gnaw on a pig's trotter occasionally), Poppy's bones are meaty bones as meals but lots of people do give recreational bones.

It is confusing at first but it will all sink in eventually. Just keep asking questions as and when, there's usually enough of us raw feeders around to help out.


----------



## Goodie10

Thankyou so much! I've been doing lots of reading but it makes more sense the way you explain it. I guess I'm just desperate not to mess up - and he will be my first puppy so I'm like a first time parent- anxious about everything! Thankyou xx


----------



## LexiLou2

I put my pups straight onto raw the day after bringing them home.

And again i work on about 3% of their adult body weight (you need to feed them alot, especially for the first couple of months as they grow so fast)

I split my meals into 4 so breakfast they would have mince, dinner they would have mince, tea they would have wings and supper they had weetabix with warm goats milk. The supper never counted towards their daily allowance it was more a warm milky treat about 9pm to settle them for the night.

So lets say hes on 130g a day, I'd give 30 g of mince for breakfast, 30g on mince for dinner and a wing for tea, if the wings are too heavy, they are fairly easy to cut (you can cut them with kitchen scissors) so you could always cut them in half, down the joint, then maybe half a weetabix with a little goats milk for supper. If you don't want to give weetabix oyu don't need to its just a filler, but the goats milk is good to just fill their tummy before bed (plus the calcium helps the growing pups)
If that looks really light you can bulk out with blended raw veg.

I dropped the supper at about 14 weeks old and dropped lunch at 6 months, then you can just feed breakfast and a full wing for tea.

The minces are the best way to get variety. I'd do pure chicken for probably 2 weeks, then look to introduce tripe, do chicken and tripe for a week and then introduce a new protein once every week. 

Don't assume because they have chicken they will be fine with chicken livers hearts etc, class them as a new protein and start with very small amounts of both offal and heart as they are very rich.

It isn't as scary as it sounds, I've been raw feeding for 3 years (in fact there is a diary on here somewhere I did when I started, think its still a sticky) and since changing Lexi over I've put 2 8 week old labs on it as well and they all do so well.

As you say morrisons is brilliant for offal and things like wings so the only thing you'd need to source are your minces, again, look for local suppliers so you don't need to bulk buy, and just reserve one of your freezer draws for pup.

I started off like that, 3 freezers later the dogs have more freezer space than me.


----------



## Goodie10

fabulous. Thats what I needed - a mentor! haha


----------



## DirtyGertie

Here's LexiLou's diary http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/154210-raw-feeding-diary.html it was a great help to me, as was LexiLou, when I changed Poppy over.

I've not raw fed a puppy so you've got some great advice in LexiLou's post .

:lol: about the freezers LexiLou, so very true! Not only does Poppy have her own two freezers, she's sneaked some stuff into one drawer of my upright freezer too!


----------



## LexiLou2

Yep raw food takes over everywhere!!! Mine have 2 freezers and a draw in my freezer and some at my parents in their chest freezer!

If you get stuck send me a pm I did loads of reading and remember panicking thinking everyone makes it sound so easy argh! So ask as much as you want we've all been there.

The important thing is remember all dogs are individual we talk about % etc my Staffie is on just under 2% if her body weight my chocolate lab weighs 25kg and is on 800g ish a day the pup is 7 months about 28kg and on 1.1kg a day and I might have to up it as she's still skinny. 

Don't get hung up on it says this here that there as DG says poppy can't have 10% bone it's too much Lexi can't have 5% liver it's too much.

As long as you know the basics of a balanced diet so 80% meat 10% bone 5% liver 5% other offal and your dog gets elements from all aspects don't worry if you have to play around with the ratios to suit your dog.

And the ratios aren't per day as DG said she does hers over a month mine work out over about 6 weeks so do twirly about getting that split into every meal or every day.


----------



## lisaslovelys

Which yogurt is best natural yogurt or probiotic yogurt full fat or low fat ?


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## Mariek76

LexiLou2 said:


> I started off like that, 3 freezers later the dogs have more freezer space than me.


We picked up our new chest freezer at the weekend. I'm already worried it won't be big enough for my DAF order that's arriving Friday! LOL.

I have flapped and panicked and worried and obsessed over starting raw feeding but tbh, thanks to the advice on here it's been plain sailing so far. I was even brave enough to give Jethro chicken quarters (which frankly terrified me! - years of "you shouldn't feed bones to dogs conditioning, guess).

I've done a spreadsheet working out a meal plan for the month and that's made things seem much less daunting (what can I say, I'm an administrator, I loves me a good spreadsheet ).

There's another thread called "switching to raw - don't over think it" or something like that, which has loads of good info aswell. Everyone in here has been invaluable though. In case I haven't said it already THANK YOU to all


----------



## DirtyGertie

lisaslovelys said:


> Which yogurt is best natural yogurt or probiotic yogurt full fat or low fat ?


I get Yeo Valley Natural BioLive Yogurt (it's probiotic) https://www.yeovalley.co.uk/things-we-make/yeogurt/natural. I buy the full fat version, I steer clear of anything low fat as it's usually got added sugar to give it flavour (not saying natural yogurt does as I've never bought the low fat version). Yeo Valley is the only one I can get here that I know is probiotic.


----------



## lisaslovelys

Is this one ok ?


----------



## DirtyGertie

lisaslovelys said:


> Is this one ok ?


Yes, that should be fine .


----------



## lisaslovelys

Ok thanks .
How often does Poppy have it ?


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## DirtyGertie

lisaslovelys said:


> Ok thanks .
> How often does Poppy have it ?


I usually give her a desertspoonful about twice a week, usually on an offal meal, she loves it, wont stop licking the dish afterwards! Sometimes I give her some banana if I'm having one, put two or three slices in a dish with a spoonful of yogurt.


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## Spookypigs

UPDATE

A couple of weeks into raw feeding and everything is going well and the dogs are LOVING it! 

The GSD's over drinking issue is definitely because she's crunching up her bone and pinching everyone else's so she gets boneless minces whilst our semi toothless Grey gets the minced chicken and pheasant carcasses to make sure he gets enough bone. I'm really not sure how I can monitor bones for three when I'm still getting used to Bone Zones which shrink as the bone loses it's value, and then at some point there's a mutual understanding that Bone Zones are temporarily halted whilst they swap bones and then restarted until the bones are mutually declared dead and finished. 

The GSD is loving the chicken wings and drumsticks (5 secs flat) whereas the lurcher isn't so sure about crunching up the bone and likes to pick it apart delicately and slowly. The difference in jaw strength is remarkable and something I'd never considered before when they were all eating kibble. 

The Grey sucks everything 

Introducing offal hasn't been too much of an issue. The first tripe meal was eventful though with the GSD chucking up hers, but the Grey quickly cleaned that up, chucked up his and hers and then polished the lot off again. Aren't dogs gross? Lol. 

The kids and husband have been squicked out with the hearts and kidneys and I've been threatened with mutiny if I slap some lungs on the kitchen table but the dogs watch the dissections with total concentration and interest. Our youngest and bravest, Emma, 9, now helps me with dicing up the ox heart whilst the rest of the family scarper. 

The two hounds are looking healthy but the GSD is looking like a right heffalump and so I need to reduce her quota. I'm amazed that she's out on so much weight so quickly but I suppose this food is just so much more nutritious than a bowl of kibble. It's taking some time to be happy with them eating less volume. Quality over quantity it seems. 

I blobbed with the introduce one protein every week. They've been on anything and everything from day 1. They soon got used to it all though and bones tend to regulate and firm up the poops. 

Oh yes, and our freezer. That's mainly the dogs' now. Thank goodness for a local supplier because I can buy as and when rather than ordering a month's supply. 

I've given up with bowl feeding for chicken carcasses and venison necks. The GSD stays in the kitchen (her bone zone is huge) whilst the two hounds will only settle on my towel covered cream shag pile rug *sobs*

Are Rug Doctors any good?


----------



## DirtyGertie

Spookypigs said:


> UPDATE
> 
> A couple of weeks into raw feeding and everything is going well and the dogs are LOVING it!
> 
> I blobbed with the introduce one protein every week. They've been on anything and everything from day 1. They soon got used to it all though and bones tend to regulate and firm up the poops.


Good to hear they've taken to it so well.

With your "anything and everything from day one" approach, if there's any type of reaction or upset tum how are you going to know what's caused it? That's the reason behind introducing things slowly.


----------



## lisaslovelys

DirtyGertie said:


> I usually give her a desertspoonful about twice a week, usually on an offal meal, she loves it, wont stop licking the dish afterwards! Sometimes I give her some banana if I'm having one, put two or three slices in a dish with a spoonful of yogurt.


I have not given any raw offal yet she has tripe wings and carcass and loves sardines . She has goats cheese mixed with veg in a kong and likes that . She can tolerate all of that so am off to the meat market tomorrow to get a bit of rabbit lamb and pork and more tripe and wings she prefers wings to carcass . Will try her on the rabbit for a few days then the lamb etc . When should I try a bit of offal .. Can she have a pigs trotter ?


----------



## DirtyGertie

lisaslovelys said:


> I have not given any raw offal yet she has tripe wings and carcass and loves sardines . She has goats cheese mixed with veg in a kong and likes that . She can tolerate all of that so am off to the meat market tomorrow to get a bit of rabbit lamb and pork and more tripe and wings she prefers wings to carcass . Will try her on the rabbit for a few days then the lamb etc . When should I try a bit of offal .. Can she have a pigs trotter ?


You can mix the yogurt with anything really, or just put a dollop in the bowl with the meat. Poppy's also had it with sardines.

See how she goes with the rabbit, lamb and pork and then you could add the offal, just remember a tiny bit to start with and build up the amount gradually. Some dogs do get a bit of a squitty reaction to liver especially if given too much to start with, that's why it's recommended to give just a finger nail size at the start.

Some dogs don't like raw offal. Poppy's OK with lamb's liver raw but kidney and the stronger buffalo or ox liver she wouldn't eat raw. I did flash fry but to be honest it's easier to boil some water, put the offal in a jug and pour the boiling water on and leave for a couple of minutes then drain.

Pig's trotter definitely, yum yum. Poppy takes forever so what I tend to do is weigh it first then let her have it for a while, swap it for something else and weigh again to see how much she's had. Last time she had it for an hour and got through 40g and was cream crackered! I really see those as recreational and let her have it for about half an hour before I swap for something else then put it back in the freezer. Too much trotter gives her dry crumbly poops anyway.


----------



## lisaslovelys

Ok thanks I will get some trotters as well then and I will leave the offal until I know that she can tolerate the other meats


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## LexiLou2

Trotter seems to be quite bone heavy, mine do have them but they have an offal meal either side to stop white crumbly poos.


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## lisaslovelys

She had 48 grams of the trotter she chewed a hole in it did not knaw on the end . Then she had 100 gms of minced lamb and tripe and veg . Thats her lot for today she had 155 gms of pilchards for dinner and 100 gms of tripe for breakfast so she has had 100 gms over her allowance today


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## princesssaskia

lisaslovelys said:


> She had 48 grams of the trotter she chewed a hole in it did not knaw on the end . Then she had 100 gms of minced lamb and tripe and veg . Thats her lot for today she had 155 gms of pilchards for dinner and 100 gms of tripe for breakfast so she has had 100 gms over her allowance today


I completely understand the new RAW feeders desire to weigh everything and of course the 80 - 10 - 10 ratio is a good guideline to follow but I sometimes think it can be really daunting and off putting to constantly talk ratios and weigh everything. After all, you dont measure every single crumb you feed yourself or your family do you! The important thing to do is to watch weight and poo - this will tell you if you are feeding too much, too little, too much bone or not enough (which is all down to the individual dog)

All of my dogs eat different amounts and ratios and goodness knows if I had to weigh everything I would never leave the kitchen :biggrin: its bad enough spending time blending up veg and preparing herbs etc without worry about how many grams of mince they are getting. The sooner you get a 'feel' for the right amounts, the easier it will be - the key point is the dog wont die with one meal too big or too small, just as we wouldnt !

Genie and others have given some great advice in their last few posts, but I just wanted to add 3 things

Firstly, Remember that quality is very important ! Im well aware that not many of us could afford to feed 1 dog (let alone a couple) on prime organic meat - I know I certainly cant! but feeding cheap or bargain basement cuts is best avoided if possible. Most cheap meat (especially supermarket meat) comes from intensively reared animals, which are fed routine antibiotics, growth promoters or hormones and usually raised in a high stress, nutritionally poor manner - none of this makes their flesh good eating for your pet - toxins are absorbed by your dog and can lead to health problems. Feeding offal, such as liver and kidney, from these animals is particularly unattractive, since the liver and kidney are 'filter' organs and would be worn out and heavily contaminated by dealing with all the toxins !

Buying organic liver and kidney is actually pretty cheap, especially as you dont need to feed much. Though wings can be very easy to feed, I usually find them expensive for good quality, which is why i stick to carcass and just cut it to size, or necks (or wings of less popular birds like pheasant or duck) You should be able to source organic or 'proper free range' chicken and duck carcass pretty easily and as for the minces, again go for the ones that come from free range or wild animals. Personally I feed mostly game as this lives a natural, free range life and as such is generally uncontaminated. As for my veg, I buy good quality, mostly organic veg and herbs for myself and the dogs get the trimmings/scraps of these - I also feed organic eggs

Secondly, both yoghurt and goats milk have been brought up recently - Personally I swear by goats milk for puppies, feeding it once daily until they are around 20 weeks old (I also give it to pregnant and whelping mothers) The best milk to feed is RAW goats milk (this means it is unpasturised and full of nutrients) make sure it is organic as you do not want to feed unpasturised milk from intensively reared animals - i get mine here RAW Unpasteurised Organic, Biodynamic Goat's Milk 1 Pint, Organic Food UK As for the yoghurt, I breed bull terriers which dont really get on with dairy very well so I dont feed them yoghurt, however I do feed it to many of my rescue dogs and always opt for a pro biotic organic one such as yeo valley - like offal, dairy is one of those things that you should feed organic if poss

Thirdly, just a quick link to an example weekly puppy menu of mine https://www.facebook.com/greenloveb...4011846787624/149632825225526/?type=1&theater

xxxxxx


----------



## Mariek76

Spookypigs said:


> The GSD's over drinking issue is definitely because she's crunching up her bone and pinching everyone else's


Jethro drinks tonnes of water and seems to have increased how much he drinks since he's been raw fed. Could this me a "too much bone" issue? I hadn't realised it could cause that. I've heard that newfie's drink a lot anyway (as they get hot easily) so I'd put it down to that.

Unfortunately lots of drinking means he regularly pees a river. I wonder where it puts it all sometimes!


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## lisaslovelys

Honey has actually cut down on drinking dramatically since being fed raw ! She used to get through at least 3 bowls a day now she does not finish 1 bowl . Is this because she is getting water from the raw ??
I don't get meat from the supermarket I get it from the butchers at the farmers meat market its all fresh and free range/organic not processed ..


----------



## DirtyGertie

lisaslovelys said:


> Honey has actually cut down on drinking dramatically since being fed raw ! She used to get through at least 3 bowls a day now she does not finish 1 bowl . Is this because she is getting water from the raw ??


In a nutshell - Yes .

Poppy drinks very little, usually when she's had a run around or a chew like a pizzle or tripe stick or a gnaw on a pig's foot. Most raw fed dogs drink a lot less than when on commercial food, particularly kibble. Poppy drunk loads when she was on kibble when we first had her.


----------



## Spookypigs

DirtyGertie said:


> Good to hear they've taken to it so well.
> 
> With your "anything and everything from day one" approach, if there's any type of reaction or upset tum how are you going to know what's caused it? That's the reason behind introducing things slowly.


There hasn't been any upset or reactions other than a bit too sloppy so I haven't had the slightest concern. If there had I'd have stopped and gone back to the precautionary approach to find out who and with what. But there hasn't. So far so good. They're dogs. They eat anything. I can't see how fresh food can cause a problem when they'll happily tuck into last week's mouldy KFC from the bins with no ill after effects.


----------



## Spookypigs

Mariek76 said:


> Jethro drinks tonnes of water and seems to have increased how much he drinks since he's been raw fed. Could this me a "too much bone" issue? I hadn't realised it could cause that. I've heard that newfie's drink a lot anyway (as they get hot easily) so I'd put it down to that.
> 
> Unfortunately lots of drinking means he regularly pees a river. I wonder where it puts it all sometimes!


I found something on the Internet about dogs drinking more due to consuming bone but unfortunately I can't find it now...

I've noticed that the GSD drinks a lot of water when she eats a lot of bone. As soon as she's had bone she drinks half a bowl of water. I don't weigh or work out ratios for my three I just give them a bone each, based on what the bone is, how meaty it is, and how soft it is to what dog, and let them get on with it, but you can guarantee they don't start what they were given and they certainly don't finish what they were given.

The GSD can crunch up most bones and pinches all the other bones that can't be finished off by my other two due to their weaker jaws, so she ends up with big crumbly poos whereas the other two have 'proper' poos. To compensate I try and give her the smaller meatier bones and don't give her minces with bone in. I also try and lift unfinished bones, bag them, and put them back in the fridge but regulating a pack of dogs and their bones with all the swapping around is very difficult if not impossible.

But the GSD is more of a drinker anyway, something I've put down to a heavier coat compared to my other two and because she's a very anxious dog. I think she drinks more due to anxiety. She drank gallons when we first got her 6 months ago but she's evened out a bit now...only to swap to a BARF diet and drink more after bones. She produces lakes of clear pee whereas the other two have yellow pee. They're definitely drinking less, I don't get so many wet beards deposited on my lap nowadays.


----------



## DirtyGertie

Spookypigs said:


> There hasn't been any upset or reactions other than a bit too sloppy so I haven't had the slightest concern. If there had I'd have stopped and gone back to the precautionary approach to find out who and with what. But there hasn't. So far so good. They're dogs. They eat anything. *I can't see how fresh food can cause a problem when they'll happily tuck into last week's mouldy KFC from the bins with no ill after effects*.


I haven't had any problems with Poppy other than she can't have a full offal meal or she gets too loose so I mix it half and half with something else. But some members here have found that their dogs do have sensitivity to certain foods which not only cause upset tums but other problems like itchy skin, etc. A slow and steady approach can pinpoint any sensitivities straight away.


----------



## lisaslovelys

I need to cut down on the veg she has in the mornings its making her poop a bit sloppy so just a teaspoon of veg every morning I think ..


----------



## Spookypigs

DirtyGertie said:


> I haven't had any problems with Poppy other than she can't have a full offal meal or she gets too loose so I mix it half and half with something else. But some members here have found that their dogs do have sensitivity to certain foods which not only cause upset tums but other problems like itchy skin, etc. A slow and steady approach can pinpoint any sensitivities straight away.


No, I don't give a full offal meal either. I've stayed away from liver so far as I understand it's really rich. Tripe is loved but makes for sloppy poos so I give it with meat as well. Kidneys seem to be okay and heart is more meat than offal and so doesn't cause too much slop. My dogs are okay so far so my slapdash approach hasn't backfired. Yet.


----------



## Mariek76

My DAF order arrived 

Tripe is uberstinky! That is all


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Isn't it just. Mine go mad for it though.

Today they have enjoyed a pigs tail and some paddywhack which they also loved.


----------



## Mariek76

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Isn't it just. Mine go mad for it though.
> 
> Today they have enjoyed a pigs tail and some paddywhack which they also loved.


Awww pig tail 

I'm not particularly squeamish but the "beef chunks" has freaked me out. I expected it to look like diced casserole mince but it actually looks like someone went "oh look, there's a cow", and chopped it into 8 inch square block  Slightly disturbing.

I'm sure Jethro won't mind scoffing it though. Greedy pants!


----------



## lisaslovelys

Now see Honey loves tripe she has it for breakfast with a bit of blended veg and also has minced lamb and tripe for tea and her poo is nice and firm its the veggies that made her poop a bit loose I blended up broccoli in the mix and its not recommended so I have a load of veg coming tomorrow so will be spending a few hours chopping and blending  Be worth it tho I will have about 6 months worth of blended veg by tomorrow afternoon  she only needs about 15 grams a day ....
Only started her on the lamb on wednesday and she seems fine on that so will be introducing some rabbit next week .

I have a 2kg bag of Applaws which she won't eat unless I starve her all day and she will reluctantly eat a bit in the evening so I expect its going to go to waste unless I could crush it all up and mix it with blended liver and cook it to make treats  hmmm Shall start a thread I think ...


----------



## Mariek76

lisaslovelys said:


> Now see Honey loves tripe


Oh Jethro loves it. Doesn't touch the sides when he has it for a meal. It's me who doesn't like it. Stinky disgusting stuff 

He's tried his first tastes of the DAF stuff today and seems to like it just fine. It's a bit more "rough and ready" than the nicely packaged Natures menus stuff he's been having (but I think it's only me that's bothered by that, he certainly doesn't seem to care!). It's definitely chunkier than the stuff he's been used to but it gobbled it down no problem.

He's got the scary beef chunks on the menu tomorrow (now they genuinely look minging (where's the puke emote when you need one?). Not sure I'm looking forward to seeing how they look when they're defrosted!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Can you take some photos please? I'd be interested to see what the DAF stuff is like. I've been using Natural Instinct minces or a couple of the ones from our local supplier but supplementing with carcass/necks and bones. They all had marrow bone this evening and tomorrow have the lower leg of a deer with fur/hoof still on  I'll be interested to see who eats it and who plays with it.

So far the only thing mine haven't liked are duck necks and Colt wouldn't eat the raw herring. In fact he rolled on it :001_unsure:


----------



## DirtyGertie

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Can you take some photos please? I'd be interested to see what the DAF stuff is like. I've been using Natural Instinct minces or a couple of the ones from our local supplier but supplementing with carcass/necks and bones. They all had marrow bone this evening and tomorrow have the lower leg of a deer with fur/hoof still on  I'll be interested to see who eats it and who plays with it.
> 
> So far the only thing mine haven't liked are duck necks and Colt wouldn't eat the raw herring. In fact he rolled on it :001_unsure:


I'm on my laptop and don't have any photos on here but if you have a look at this page on Poppy's blog there are a couple of pics of some DAF mince in her bowl with a bit of veg, they were taken nearly three years ago when I first started raw feeding. (There are pics of chicken thighs and legs on there too, I don't feed them though, just wings.)


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

DirtyGertie said:


> I'm on my laptop and don't have any photos on here but if you have a look at this page on Poppy's blog there are a couple of pics of some DAF mince in her bowl with a bit of veg, they were taken nearly three years ago when I first started raw feeding. (There are pics of chicken thighs and legs on there too, I don't feed them though, just wings.)


Thank you. It looks similar but perhaps a bit chunkier than the mince I'm feeding. This one is Natural Instinct duck mince and some herrings (the one licking his lips is the one who wouldn't eat the herring and rolled on it)



This one is from Nurturing by Nature (very local to us) - its chicken and trout mince with some of their vegetable mix added.


----------



## Mariek76

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Can you take some photos please? I'd be interested to see what the DAF stuff is like.


He's just snaffled his breakfast down but I'll take a pic of lunch if I remember.

Basically though it just seems chunkier, like it's been minced with a larger bore mincer? The beef chunk is beyond gross though.



I don't even think I know what bit of a cow that's from! Eeeeww. I'm sure Jethro will eat it just the same.


----------



## princesssaskia

Spookypigs said:


> No, I don't give a full offal meal either. I've stayed away from liver so far as I understand it's really rich. Tripe is loved but makes for sloppy poos so I give it with meat as well. Kidneys seem to be okay and heart is more meat than offal and so doesn't cause too much slop. My dogs are okay so far so my slapdash approach hasn't backfired. Yet.


Liver is a very important part of the diet though, so dont cut it out altogether. You can either divide it between a weeks meals so they are only eating it in very small amounts OR you can feed dried liver as treats (though fresh - and organic - is best)

mine happily eat a big chunk of liver once or twice a week with no probs - the odd sloppier or crumbly poo is not a issue anyway, so long as 90% of the poos are nice and firm :thumbup1:


----------



## cammypup14

Mariek76 said:


> He's just snaffled his breakfast down but I'll take a pic of lunch if I remember.
> 
> Basically though it just seems chunkier, like it's been minced with a larger bore mincer? The beef chunk is beyond gross though.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't even think I know what bit of a cow that's from! Eeeeww. I'm sure Jethro will eat it just the same.


It's the lips, I found some in a tin of cat meat and queried it as it does look gross. Wouldn't have minded but the meat was duck,chicken and turkey so not sure why beef was in it.


----------



## lisaslovelys

cammypup14 said:


> It's the lips, I found some in a tin of cat meat and queried it as it does look gross. Wouldn't have minded but the meat was duck,chicken and turkey so not sure why beef was in it.


Oh my  gag reflex (remembers never to get beef chunks)


----------



## Mariek76

lisaslovelys said:


> Oh my  gag reflex (remembers never to get beef chunks)


Not sure if I'll have the stomach to order them again!


----------



## lisaslovelys

I don't think I will get tongue either I think that would be very puke inducing


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

These are the beef chunks from nurturing by nature but I can't remember how much they cost



I gave mine the deer foot/leg this morning but they were not a hit. None of them knew what to do with them, they poked them, carried them, tried to bury them and sat looking at us and whining. I eventually took them away when Arthur tried to follow me into the toilet with his


----------



## williams500

Hi,
I just had a question about the amount of offal I should be feeding.

From reading up it looks like I should feed 5% of a weekly diet of liver and 5% of something else.

He is a 6 month old leonberger on about 1.5kgs a day - so over a week 5% of this would be 525grams a week. This seems like quite a lot to me so just wanted to check if that seems right?

Thanks


----------



## DirtyGertie

williams500 said:


> Hi,
> I just had a question about the amount of offal I should be feeding.
> 
> From reading up it looks like I should feed 5% of a weekly diet of liver and 5% of something else.
> 
> He is a 6 month old leonberger on about 1.5kgs a day - so over a week 5% of this would be 525grams a week. This seems like quite a lot to me so just wanted to check if that seems right?
> 
> Thanks


Correct .

1500g per day x 7 = 10,500g per week

10,500 x 5% = 525g

so 525g of liver and 525g of something else, e.g. kidney, per week.


----------



## Mariek76

williams500 said:


> Hi,
> I just had a question about the amount of offal I should be feeding.
> 
> From reading up it looks like I should feed 5% of a weekly diet of liver and 5% of something else.
> 
> He is a 6 month old leonberger on about 1.5kgs a day - so over a week 5% of this would be 525grams a week. This seems like quite a lot to me so just wanted to check if that seems right?
> 
> Thanks


Jethro gets 1.5kg a day and 75g of that is a 50/50 liver/kidney spilt. He's only 17 weeks but is already massive (52+ lbs). You can feed it split up per day or just in one meal per week. Whatever their belly can deal with best.


----------



## DirtyGertie

Mariek76 said:


> Jethro gets 1.5kg a day and 75g of that is a 50/50 liver/kidney spilt. He's only 17 weeks but is already massive (52+ lbs). You can feed it split up per day or just in one meal per week. Whatever their belly can deal with best.


Are you still building Jethro up to the full amount? Williams500 didn't state whether he was just starting out on raw feeding or already well established. So yes, Williams500, the 525g is the amount required when fully established on raw feeding and up to the correct amount of liver. If just starting out then start with a very small amount and increase it gradually over a period of time until you reach the correct proportion. If your dog is new to offal and you give 525g to start with then you'll probably get a mighty botty explosion :yikes:.


----------



## 2dogs

my 35 k greyhound gets 450 gms a week of liver/beef kidney, I think this is about right he gets 700-750 gms raw meat and bone a day


----------



## juliem650

Have been reading through the posts on this site for a few of weeks now and was convinced to start raw feeding two weeks ago for my three adult springers.
I started them on chicken for a few days and then moved on beef and then heart with chicken wings and carcasses in-between.
I've been buying Natures menu from the pet store but am going to put in bulk order for DAF this weekend as they've been recommended. I've looked at Honey but they seem so much more expensive that I don't know if I can afford to use them although it sounds like excellent produce.
Just wondered what other people's experiences have been using these three companies. I'd really like to put together my own DIY meal plan but I don't have the time or knowledge to source it myself.
I'm still trying to get to grips with planning meals - one of your members said she did a spread sheet - an excellent idea and one I'm going to adopt.
I've been working on around 2.5 per cent bodyweight which seems about right, just want to check if veg and bones are included in the total or if they are calculated separately and it's just for meat.
Sorry if there are a lot of questions, I've ordered a couple of books but they've not arrived yet so am relying on help from others. Plus as others have said, it's all a little scary at first and a bit of hand-holding is definitely welcome


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## rottiepointerhouse

juliem650 said:


> Have been reading through the posts on this site for a few of weeks now and was convinced to start raw feeding two weeks ago for my three adult springers.
> I started them on chicken for a few days and then moved on beef and then heart with chicken wings and carcasses in-between.
> I've been buying Natures menu from the pet store but am going to put in bulk order for DAF this weekend as they've been recommended. I've looked at Honey but they seem so much more expensive that I don't know if I can afford to use them although it sounds like excellent produce.
> Just wondered what other people's experiences have been using these three companies. I'd really like to put together my own DIY meal plan but I don't have the time or knowledge to source it myself.
> I'm still trying to get to grips with planning meals - one of your members said she did a spread sheet - an excellent idea and one I'm going to adopt.
> I've been working on around 2.5 per cent bodyweight which seems about right, just want to check if veg and bones are included in the total or if they are calculated separately and it's just for meat.
> Sorry if there are a lot of questions, I've ordered a couple of books but they've not arrived yet so am relying on help from others. Plus as others have said, it's all a little scary at first and a bit of hand-holding is definitely welcome


I'm pretty new to it too so can't really offer much advice. I started out looking at Honey's too but with 3 big dogs it was just too expensive plus I wanted a more flexible option. I would thoroughly recommend Jonathan Self's book though "Honey's Natural Feeding Handbook for Dogs" which I found very helpful. I've started off using Natural Instinct minces which have meat/bone/vegetables or tripes which is the all time favourite.

I include everything they get when working out how much to feed so mine get between 150 - 200g of mince or tripe twice a day and a decent carcass or ribs. I've been working roughly (it does vary from day to day) on 2% of body weight and even that is a bit too much for my rottie who gains weight very easily so I just keep an eye on them and either up or down the amount.


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## DirtyGertie

juliem650 said:


> Have been reading through the posts on this site for a few of weeks now and was convinced to start raw feeding two weeks ago for my three adult springers.
> I started them on chicken for a few days and then moved on beef and then heart with chicken wings and carcasses in-between.
> I've been buying Natures menu from the pet store but am going to put in bulk order for DAF this weekend as they've been recommended. I've looked at Honey but they seem so much more expensive that I don't know if I can afford to use them although it sounds like excellent produce.
> Just wondered what other people's experiences have been using these three companies. I'd really like to put together my own DIY meal plan but I don't have the time or knowledge to source it myself.
> I'm still trying to get to grips with planning meals - one of your members said she did a spread sheet - an excellent idea and one I'm going to adopt.
> I've been working on around 2.5 per cent bodyweight which seems about right, just want to check if veg and bones are included in the total or if they are calculated separately and it's just for meat.
> Sorry if there are a lot of questions, I've ordered a couple of books but they've not arrived yet so am relying on help from others. Plus as others have said, it's all a little scary at first and a bit of hand-holding is definitely welcome


Hi and welcome to the forum.

I started off using DAF minces until I felt more confident. I rarely use them now and buy DAF chicken chunks, tripe chunks, salmon chunks. I managed to get some turkey chunks from another supplier when no chicken chunks were available. To add variety I got some rabbit chunks from somewhere else but wont be getting them again because there was a lot of shot in it which they hadn't warned about. I got a big piece of pork in the reduced section of my supermarket and have occasionally managed to pick up some duck but even reduced it's not cheap so it's a very occasional treat. Heart seems to be roughly the same price if I buy it from my butcher. Mackerel I've had from my grandson's sea fishing trip and hope he goes again this year . If I get a lamb breast from the butcher there's meat that can be cut into chunks plus the ribs, but for me that's a dear way of doing it.

Once established on raw you can also add variety with bones, e.g. lamb ribs, pork ribs, lamb spines, bone in rabbit, duck carcasses, turkey necks, also chicken and duck necks. You can add a bit of variety with offal too. At the moment I've got lambs liver plus ox and buffalo liver. I think one of the suppliers does lamb tripe as well as beef tripe.

I've not used Natures Menu. I think they used to be Prize Choice and you could get that from Pets at Home, I had one bag and never bought it again, didn't like the quality. But Natures Menu could be a lot better, I think some people on here use it.

DAF products I've never had a problem with and I buy from Raw2Paw because DAF don't deliver to where I live and wont courier. Raw2Paw also sell other makes plus mackerel in season so you get a good variety there and they are excellent.

Honeys I wouldn't be able to afford. I think their stuff is organic so expensive.

Your 2.5% includes meat, offal and bone. Veg isn't really necessary, a lot of raw feeders don't bother at all, I sometimes blitz a batch and put it into ice cube trays in the freezer then give it a couple of times a week. I never count it towards the percentage though.

Once you get used to it it's straightforward and I'm sure you'll be able to DIY in no time .

Any questions, ask away, always someone around to answer them.


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## juliem650

Thanks for the replies so far - much appreciated.
One more quick question. My dog has been a bit sick on and off for the last two days but appears very well. He is lively, eating everything I put in front of him and his stools are firm. It's only a bit of bile with grass and it seems to happen about an hour before feeding time and sometime during the night.
I gave him a chicken leg on Wednesday rather then the chicken wings he had last week and I wondered if the bones were too big for him. The bitches have been fine, although they had the wings not the leg.
Thanks again


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## DirtyGertie

juliem650 said:


> Thanks for the replies so far - much appreciated.
> One more quick question. My dog has been a bit sick on and off for the last two days but appears very well. He is lively, eating everything I put in front of him and his stools are firm. It's only a bit of bile with grass and it seems to happen about an hour before feeding time and sometime during the night.
> I gave him a chicken leg on Wednesday rather then the chicken wings he had last week and I wondered if the bones were too big for him. The bitches have been fine, although they had the wings not the leg.
> Thanks again


If it's just bile, especially considering the times you've stated, then it could just be empty tummy. For night time I always give a biscuit or something after our last toilet walk as it is a long time between tea time and breakfast.

What breed, how old? I don't give chicken legs as the bones are a bit harder than the wings as they're weight bearing, despite the fact that chickens aren't that big , but I only have a little dog weighing 5.5kg so probably not got as powerful a jaw as a bigger dog.


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## juliem650

DirtyGertie said:


> If it's just bile, especially considering the times you've stated, then it could just be empty tummy. For night time I always give a biscuit or something after our last toilet walk as it is a long time between tea time and breakfast.
> 
> What breed, how old? I don't give chicken legs as the bones are a bit harder than the wings as they're weight bearing, despite the fact that chickens aren't that big , but I only have a little dog weighing 5.5kg so probably not got as powerful a jaw as a bigger dog.


I've got three springers - they're all rescued and the vet thinks they are around five years old.


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## 2dogs

chicken legs are fine, my dog eats half chickens, weight bearing bones refers to larger animal bones, like big knuckle bones and shin bone...natural instinct do lambs necks and spines which are good digestible bone, you do need to feed more bone that wings for calcium, unless you feed NI tubs which have ground bone included


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## princesssaskia

super quick post as just off to the pub  try these 3 suppliers

Manifold Valley Meats - VERY affordable, minced meat and great range of minced carcass, comes in 1/2 kilo sausages on average 80p each (personally i feed their minced game, minced pheasant, minced venison and minced rabbit (they also do other minces - but although the quality of meat is good when compared to prize choice, its not free range so i prefer to get my chicken and lamb and duck elsewhere and stick to just wild game from Manifold) they also do chunks of meat and wings etc etc

Products, Prices & Deliveries » Manifold Valley Meats

I get my minced duck and lamb from here Login (i find their free range duck carcass - 8 for £12 particularly good, huge and very meaty)

i get other bits and bobs from here Natural Pet Food Shop in Gosport

otherwise i rely on local butcher and gamekeeper for good quality, fresh but affordable meat - i have said it before and im sure i will say it again - RAW feeding is all about clever sourcing, building contacts and acquiring a big freezer !!!!!!:thumbup:


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## Mariek76

juliem650 said:


> I've been buying Natures menu from the pet store but am going to put in bulk order for DAF this weekend as they've been recommended. I've looked at Honey but they seem so much more expensive that I don't know if I can afford to use them although it sounds like excellent produce.


We started on the Nature's Menu then placed a bulk order with DAF. The delivery etc was fine but just be prepared for the fact that it's a little more "rough and ready" than the Nature's Menu stuff (which is obviously commercially packaged). The DAF order came in small plastic freezer bags with no ties (just the ends folded over) and the mince is much less finely minced than the natures menus so you get some unusually looking chunky bits in there!). I wouldn't recommend the beef chunks unless you've got a strong stomach (see photo a couple of pages back). I'm not particularly squeamish but I have to say I was a little queasy when I realised I was cutting up a chunk of cow nose 

If you're happy with the nature's menu you can buy it cheaper online from their website than you can instore. They have their own courier delivery service which is free if your order is over 60 quid. I'm going to try them with a bulk order for this month and see how it goes.


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## juliem650

just got back tonight from a couple of days away to discover one of my dogs has been feeling very sorry for himself. He's drinking loads of water, bringing it all back up and won't eat. I did read somewhere that this could be like a detox phase but he's not had dried food for two weeks so I don't think it can be that. If he's no better in the morning I'll take him to the vet but wondered if anyone else had come across this in the beginning.


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## DirtyGertie

juliem650 said:


> just got back tonight from a couple of days away to discover one of my dogs has been feeling very sorry for himself. He's drinking loads of water, bringing it all back up and won't eat. I did read somewhere that this could be like a detox phase but he's not had dried food for two weeks so I don't think it can be that. If he's no better in the morning I'll take him to the vet but wondered if anyone else had come across this in the beginning.


Sorry, I've no personal experience of anything like that when starting raw.

Can you ask whoever has been walking him whilst you've been away whether he could have picked up anything and eaten it on a walk? I know someone whose dog had symptoms very similar to what you describe and it turned out that she had swallowed a ball and it was stuck in her oesophagus. Not trying to panic you, just that it might be an idea to ask if he could possibly have swallowed or eaten something that might be causing it. A vet check sounds like a good idea if he's still the same tomorrow.

ETA - was he given any new food that he hadn't had before whilst you were away? Just wondering if he's had something new it might be that it doesn't agree with him.


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## rottiepointerhouse

No nothing like that when we changed ours over either. We had one lot of being sick because we gave ribs too early on and then a few instances of the bile being brought up in the early hours of the morning which was cured by a bedtime biscuit. Is he managing to poo? I would keep a very close eye on him and get him to a vet if it continues as he will soon get dehydrated if he can't keep water down.


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## juliem650

He's still no better so we're going to vets' this morning. It all points to some sort of intestinal blockage as he's really miserable and won't even get out of bed.


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## DirtyGertie

juliem650 said:


> He's still no better so we're going to vets' this morning. It all points to some sort of intestinal blockage as he's really miserable and won't even get out of bed.


Please let us know how you get on.


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## rottiepointerhouse

juliem650 said:


> He's still no better so we're going to vets' this morning. It all points to some sort of intestinal blockage as he's really miserable and won't even get out of bed.


Hope he is OK. Please let us know.


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## lisaslovelys

Oh dear hope everything is ok !
Honey is poorly today she had pork ribs for the first time yesterday and she had some raw sprats and in the night she was crying to go out and she had awful grey funky smelling diarrhea then this morning when I woke her up she had leaked poop all over herself and her bed and had diarrhea again when I took her out the same greyish colour..
I think the fish was gone off to be honest because of the colour and the smell and she has had nothing to eat today I have just been syringing water into her mouth to make sure she stays hydrated .. If she has not perked up by tea time I will walk her up to the vets ..
She is very sleepy and off but in no pain and her gums are pink and mouth and gums are moist and she is dribbling a little bit ..


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## juliem650

Poor Honey, hope she feels better tomorrow.
Max has been kept in overnight and is still on a drip. X-rays didn't show any obvious blockage so they are doing tests for pancreatitis - should have results back tomorrow. If that's the case then I'll have to learn how to manage his diet to keep him from having any more attacks. Has anyone else come across this?


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## DirtyGertie

juliem650 said:


> Poor Honey, hope she feels better tomorrow.
> Max has been kept in overnight and is still on a drip. X-rays didn't show any obvious blockage so they are doing tests for pancreatitis - should have results back tomorrow. If that's the case then I'll have to learn how to manage his diet to keep him from having any more attacks. Has anyone else come across this?


Thanks for the update. Good to hear that there's no obvious blockage but sorry he's being kept in overnight, it's probably the right thing but I'm sure you'll miss each other.

I'm sure I've seen posts about pancreatitis so hopefully someone will come along. It might be an idea to do a new thread asking specifically about it as not everyone reads the raw feeding thread.

Please let us know how it goes tomorrow.


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## Lab-lover

Can anyone advise me what are the best RMBs to clean teeth. Are marrow bones any good? Thanks.


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## rottiepointerhouse

juliem650 said:


> Poor Honey, hope she feels better tomorrow.
> Max has been kept in overnight and is still on a drip. X-rays didn't show any obvious blockage so they are doing tests for pancreatitis - should have results back tomorrow. If that's the case then I'll have to learn how to manage his diet to keep him from having any more attacks. Has anyone else come across this?


Any news on Max? Hope everything is OK.


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## juliem650

After a couple of days on a drip Max was allowed home. Tests for pancreatitis were negative thank goodness. He must just have had a nasty bout of gastroenteritis. Vet has advised keeping him off raw food for a few days and giving him cooked chicken and rice until his system recovers.
Seems to be back to normal now though.


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## rottiepointerhouse

Pleased to hear Max is better and back home.

I went to the butcher today to order some pigs trotters which will be in next week. Picked up some oxtail while I was there - its already been cut into largish chunks - do I just give that to them and let them eat the lot?

Also can I pick your brains about reducing weight on raw food. Indie my rottie girl needs to lose a few kilos really, she is not fat but due to her joint problems we would prefer her to be a bit leaner. When she was on kibble the poor love was cut down and cut down and ended up having 35g twice a day with a bit of naturediet. Now she is on raw she is at least getting some proper food as she was always hungry before. She does look a bit trimmer since starting the raw but the other day I took her in the shop where we buy most of our raw food and the lady in there suggested we only feed her on chicken and restrict her duck carcass or lamb spines/ribs to just once a week. That does't seem right to me as I would rather she have variety but less of it. I have cut down the mince she has in the morning and she gets a small chicken carcass, or a piece of duck carcass or lamb spine in the evening. She weighs 38 kg and is getting a maximum of 500g of food per day which is under 2%. Should I just carry on doing this and see if she gradually loses more or do what the lady suggested and stop giving her anything other than chicken?

This is her taken today


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## pogo

No i don't compromise on variety I'd give less food, my Chance has a mega slow metabolism and at 48kg only needs 500g a day to maintain, but i don't feed the same amount each day, and they do get the odd fast day


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## Jengo

How do you all manage when taking your dogs on holidays? We go self catering and there is no freezer in the cabin we stay and nowhere nearby to buy fresh pet mince?


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## pogo

Jengo said:


> How do you all manage when taking your dogs on holidays? We go self catering and there is no freezer in the cabin we stay and nowhere nearby to buy fresh pet mince?


We don't do holidays, normally, but when we did i took a big cool box and packed it well with easily packable non bulky stuff, so minced etc still frozen and open it as little of possible and it lasts a good few days still frozen, and even when defrosted lasts a few days.

I also bought things from the supermarket, it doesn't need to be pet mince, you can feed any meat/bones you want and can get


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## rottiepointerhouse

pogo said:


> No i don't compromise on variety I'd give less food, my Chance has a mega slow metabolism and at 48kg only needs 500g a day to maintain, but i don't feed the same amount each day, and they do get the odd fast day


Thank you. Thats what I thought too. I've only been feeding raw about 6 weeks anyway so I think she will gradually lose and tone up. Considering she has been on very very restricted exercise on and off for most of the last year including quite long periods of pen rest I don't think she is too bad but I know she could do with shedding a bit more.


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## pogo

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thank you. Thats what I thought too. I've only been feeding raw about 6 weeks anyway so I think she will gradually lose and tone up. Considering she has been on very very restricted exercise on and off for most of the last year including quite long periods of pen rest I don't think she is too bad but I know she could do with shedding a bit more.


variety is important, and i certainly wouldn't feed a predominately chicken diet, unless i really had to, just try cutting the food amount a little bit and see if she loses


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## princesssaskia

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thank you. Thats what I thought too. I've only been feeding raw about 6 weeks anyway so I think she will gradually lose and tone up. Considering she has been on very very restricted exercise on and off for most of the last year including quite long periods of pen rest I don't think she is too bad but I know she could do with shedding a bit more.


yes dont compromise on variety - to be honest your rotti doesnt look that bad anyway but you should fine that she becomes leaner over time on a RAW diet. Perhaps you can consider some natural supplements to help get her fighting fit so you can up her exercise which would also help her shed weight of course


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## princesssaskia

Jengo said:


> How do you all manage when taking your dogs on holidays? We go self catering and there is no freezer in the cabin we stay and nowhere nearby to buy fresh pet mince?


we go caravanning with the dogs all the time. As already mentioned we also take a big cool box packed with frozen stuff, thiis lasts a few days and it keeps itself cool as it defrost - then we pop to local supermarkets or butchers and get easy things like chicken wings etc to feed, If we go away for a longer period then i tend to revert to feeding vacuum packed RAW food like natural instinct, the quality isnt amazing but its grain free and does not need to be refrigerated (i supplement this with eggs and tinned fish and chicken wings whenever possible)


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## rottiepointerhouse

princesssaskia said:


> yes dont compromise on variety - to be honest your rotti doesnt look that bad anyway but you should fine that she becomes leaner over time on a RAW diet. Perhaps you can consider some natural supplements to help get her fighting fit so you can up her exercise which would also help her shed weight of course


Thank you. She has salmon oil and yumove young and active but she is never going to be fighting fit I'm afraid as her elbows are shot with very little cartilage cover and she has arthritis in her back legs following TPLO to both cruciates. At the moment she is on a rehab programme following her last operation 8 weeks ago for luxating patella so only allowed 15-20 min walks on a lead. Several people have commented on how well she is looking on the new diet - she has toned up I'm sure and her coat is nice and shiny so I'm pleased.


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## victoria171168

I am going to try and switch Max's diet over to see if it helps with his cancer. I have talked to a lady whose dog was diagnosed with cancer and she pointed me to some articles concerning cancer cells being fed by sugar and carbs.lt can't hurt to try it as anything that may work is worth a try.

Hopefully he will eat it but the questions l have are l am looking to goto a 70% protein 30% fat regime .
I have some packs of frozen meat and am going to add some shredded veg along with an egg , tablespoon of coconut oil alongside his chicken carcasses ,etc.

I will probably add a handful of high protein dried food into his diet but need advice on how to make his diet as balanced as possible as to be honest l haven't a clue and am confused over a lot of overwhelming information.

Also how can l get more fat into his diet ?

It may or may not help but at this moment in time l am preparedto consider anything and it won't be easy but am going to give it a go


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## suespoon

Can anyone advise me on this one? My little doodle is 8 months old and has been raw fed since we had her at 7 weeks. Our other doodle is 2 years old and raw fed for a year. We have never had any feeding problems with her at all, but the little one is a very spasmodic feeder. When we put her food dish down, she backs away from it for a few minutes, then sometimes starts eating but often not much. She does the same with carcasses, bones etc. and needs encouragement to start eating. I have occasionally resorted to hand feeding the food remaining in her dish. (Yes, I know - not a good idea!) She appears fit and active and has bags of energy - in fact, she is one naughty pup! Is it possible that any dog dislikes raw food? She is currently in her first season but this eating issue has been going on for months. Any help/thoughts would be much appreciated.


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## DirtyGertie

suespoon said:


> Can anyone advise me on this one? My little doodle is 8 months old and has been raw fed since we had her at 7 weeks. Our other doodle is 2 years old and raw fed for a year. We have never had any feeding problems with her at all, but the little one is a very spasmodic feeder. When we put her food dish down, she backs away from it for a few minutes, then sometimes starts eating but often not much. She does the same with carcasses, bones etc. and needs encouragement to start eating. I have occasionally resorted to hand feeding the food remaining in her dish. (Yes, I know - not a good idea!) She appears fit and active and has bags of energy - in fact, she is one naughty pup! Is it possible that any dog dislikes raw food? She is currently in her first season but this eating issue has been going on for months. Any help/thoughts would be much appreciated.


Is it all of her food or is it just some? What is she having? Is she having the right amount (as in you're not overfeeding her and she's maybe not hungry)?

Poppy wouldn't touch the DAF lamb mince, it has quite a soft texture and is rather bloody compared to their other minces. Also she wont eat raw kidney, nor the stronger livers like ox or buffalo raw, with all those I have to pour boiling water on them to seal and then drain (or flash fry). Only other thing she's been a little bit funny about is a fresh duck neck my son gave me when he was roasting one. Normally all necks have been in the freezer and are defrosted but I got offered this one and put it in the fridge for her to have next day and she sniffed, licked, sniffed, licked, sniffed before she tucked in whereas normally she dives straight in. Everything else she eats with no problem.


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## suespoon

They have a full range of foods: lamb, beef, offal, chicken, turkey, game etc etc. bones too. She does not differentiate in her behaviour - all foods can be treated this way. She eats less than the 'recommended' amounts for her age and size anyway. She is well in all other ways, so at first we put it down to being tired, or simply her being a self-regulating eater. Maybe that's all it is?


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## rottiepointerhouse

My two pointers went through a stage of backing away from their mince and only eating it with a lot of encouragement, also one of them would back off from some of his chicken necks or duck carcass etc. I found by trial and error that I was just feeding them a little bit too much and they are quite good at self regulation whereas my rottie girl has no such off switch and would eat the freezer full if she could. I've reduced their rations by about 20% and that seems to have helped get them back to eating with enthusiasm. Colt was a bit picky again this morning for the first time so I will only give him 50% tonight. As long as she is not dropping weight I wouldn't worry.


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## DirtyGertie

suespoon said:


> They have a full range of foods: lamb, beef, offal, chicken, turkey, game etc etc. bones too. She does not differentiate in her behaviour - all foods can be treated this way. She eats less than the 'recommended' amounts for her age and size anyway. She is well in all other ways, so at first we put it down to being tired, or simply her being a self-regulating eater. Maybe that's all it is?


Is it just minces she's having or do you feed chunks? If it's just minces then I'd give the odd meal of chunks, or tinned mackerel/sardines/pilchards and see if she's more enthusiastic with those and if necessary perhaps go over to them to make meals more interesting. If you already give them then I'd be inclined, as Rottiepointerhouse has said, to reduce the amount you give her. First of all, can you weigh her at home - you say "little doodle", so if she's small enough for you to pick up then weigh yourself on bathroom scales, then weigh yourself plus doodle, then take one from the other. So now you've got her starting weight, reduce her food a bit. She should eat if she's hungry. As she's not yet fully grown she will still need to put weight on but you will be able to keep an eye on it and make sure she's not losing weight - if so then you'll need to increase the amount of food. But you might find that she's just not hungry so not bothered about eating but you might just need to find the right balance - enough food to satisfy her needs and appetite but not so much that she's never actually properly hungry. (Hopefully that all makes sense, it does in my head :lol:.)

My Poppy is like RPH's rottie, she would eat non-stop if allowed. She eats her normal meal in seconds, licks the dish for about two minutes, then looks at me as if to say "What's for tea, you never feed me" . She doesn't beg off me at all, she knows she wont get anything, but certain noises from the kitchen bring her running in to ask "Is it time for food again?"! The way she snaffles up a discarded chip or something when out for a walk would have people believe I starve her!

One other thought. Do you give any natural yogurt? When I give Poppy kidney or liver, I always put a teaspoon of natural probiotic yogurt on it (I use Yeo Valley) and she absolutely loves that so the dish gets an extra minute's licking to make sure she's not left any! If she likes it that might encourage your doodle to eat.


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## princesssaskia

suespoon said:


> Can anyone advise me on this one? My little doodle is 8 months old and has been raw fed since we had her at 7 weeks. Our other doodle is 2 years old and raw fed for a year. We have never had any feeding problems with her at all, but the little one is a very spasmodic feeder. When we put her food dish down, she backs away from it for a few minutes, then sometimes starts eating but often not much. She does the same with carcasses, bones etc. and needs encouragement to start eating. I have occasionally resorted to hand feeding the food remaining in her dish. (Yes, I know - not a good idea!) She appears fit and active and has bags of energy - in fact, she is one naughty pup! Is it possible that any dog dislikes raw food? She is currently in her first season but this eating issue has been going on for months. Any help/thoughts would be much appreciated.


Going to agree with what Genie and Rottie have said here - I always advise people to forget about weighing and statistics, simply look at the dogs weight - obviously pups grow and need portion adjustments but RAW fed dogs are leaner than kibble dogs - though obviously they shouldnt be 'ribby'

Most new RAW feeders take a while to adjust to RAW portions, if I am perfectly honest even after 15 years im still guilty of it myself sometimes !!!! Its so easy to feed too much. Most people are used to 'plump' pet dogs as the majority of dogs I meet are overweight. If your dog is not KEEN to eat then you are feeding too much !

The reason kibble fed dogs are usually hungry despite being overweight is that they are nutritionally starved and crave more food in a desperate attempt to get the goodness they need !

So my suggestion, fast her for a day or 2 (if she is a pup then dont fast completely but give her meaty broth NOTHING ELSE - then, start feeding as normal again but REDUCE the portions xxxx


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## princesssaskia

ok guys, its my turn to ask for help 

I have a new RAW client who lives in Ireland - I have sent her my usual info sheets detailing how to get started feeding RAW and weekly menu plans etc but my usual list of supplier links are irrelevant here!!!

Does anybody know any suppliers of MINCED CARCASS (and other RAW products) in Ireland ?

many thanks x


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## Nicky10

princesssaskia said:


> ok guys, its my turn to ask for help
> 
> I have a new RAW client who lives in Ireland - I have sent her my usual info sheets detailing how to get started feeding RAW and weekly menu plans etc but my usual list of supplier links are irrelevant here!!!
> 
> Does anybody know any suppliers of MINCED CARCASS (and other RAW products) in Ireland ?
> 
> many thanks x


I don't think there is anything here like there is in England, at least nothing I've been able to find. It would have to be through a butcher or supermarket.


----------



## Meezey

princesssaskia said:


> ok guys, its my turn to ask for help
> 
> I have a new RAW client who lives in Ireland - I have sent her my usual info sheets detailing how to get started feeding RAW and weekly menu plans etc but my usual list of supplier links are irrelevant here!!!
> 
> Does anybody know any suppliers of MINCED CARCASS (and other RAW products) in Ireland ?
> 
> many thanks x


Yep Raw Dog Food : Dogs First where abouts are they I have a few contacts for RAW in Northern Ireland too!


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## susie sweet86

PEOPLE! I started my dog on a raw food diet, mainly chicken based from a reputable company, unfortunately my little angel Mason got a combination of Salmonella and Campylobacter infection and unfortunately responded poorly to intense hospitaliation and passed away 1 month ago. I'm currently in touch my lawyers and in discussion with the company, who cannot be named for legal reasons, about compensation but according to the company this is just one of the risks associated with such diets. I fully regret not listening to the vets advice and using normal dog food. I miss Mason soo much


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## Ceiling Kitty

susie sweet86 said:


> PEOPLE! I started my dog on a raw food diet, mainly chicken based from a reputable company, unfortunately my little angel Mason got a combination of Salmonella and Campylobacter infection and unfortunately responded poorly to intense hospitaliation and passed away 1 month ago. I'm currently in touch my lawyers and in discussion with the company, who cannot be named for legal reasons, about compensation but according to the company this is just one of the risks associated with such diets. I fully regret not listening to the vets advice and using normal dog food. I miss Mason soo much


This is sad news. Sorry for your loss. 

Were Mason's _Salmonella_ and _Campylobacter_ irrefutably linked to the diet? I only ask because I have seen multiple cases of both in dogs and cats not fed raw.


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## Ellakeat

Can I ask a daft question please? Dylan is raw fed and I have a freezer full of various food for him. However, I had an 'incident' a few days ago when he helped himself to some chicken I was defrosting.
Now, I defrost everything thoroughly before feeding it to him, but keep reading about dogs being fed frozen cuts of meat to keep them busy for longer and I am a bit  Is it safe ? Or am I misunderstanding?
Curiosity as much as anything else. I will continue to defrost (safely)! But useful to know as a just in case.


----------



## DirtyGertie

Ellakeat said:


> Can I ask a daft question please? Dylan is raw fed and I have a freezer full of various food for him. However, I had an 'incident' a few days ago when he helped himself to some chicken I was defrosting.
> Now, I defrost everything thoroughly before feeding it to him, but keep reading about dogs being fed frozen cuts of meat to keep them busy for longer and I am a bit  Is it safe ? Or am I misunderstanding?
> Curiosity as much as anything else. I will continue to defrost (safely)! But useful to know as a just in case.


It's safe, no reason for it to be unsafe really . Some dogs will happily eat it frozen, some prefer it defrosted I suppose. I tend to defrost overnight but on the odd occasion it hasn't defrosted thoroughly I have given it part frozen. Poppy's a dustbin anyway, she'll eat anything (and some if it you really wouldn't want to know about ).


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## Ellakeat

Brilliant-thank you


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## Tim9874

Whoa such a detailed info and it was impressive guys


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## CalmPackLeader

yeah very informative, thanks guyz


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## Thaisa

susie sweet86 said:


> PEOPLE! I started my dog on a raw food diet, mainly chicken based from a reputable company, unfortunately my little angel Mason got a combination of Salmonella and Campylobacter infection and unfortunately responded poorly to intense hospitaliation and passed away 1 month ago. I'm currently in touch my lawyers and in discussion with the company, who cannot be named for legal reasons, about compensation but according to the company this is just one of the risks associated with such diets. I fully regret not listening to the vets advice and using normal dog food. I miss Mason soo much


I feel for you. I still have no issues with a raw diet at all. I look at my case as unfortunate. Saying that, I don't feed my other two dogs raw anymore. My rottie got Salmonella from some raw chicken. He had treatment, but all the anti bi's he had and vet stays, they could not not get a handle on it. This was January 2013 when it started. As soon as it seemed to stop, back it came worse. I lost him at six years of age in December 2013. He went from 9 stone in the end to four and a half. I had him put to sleep as his organs were packing up. It was the most devestating thing I have been through with a dog and I would not wish it on anyone. It stopped me feeding raw and to my dog that was left and my new leonberger puppy, I feed them nature diet trays. When you feed raw, there are risks that you should be aware of and know before starting it. As stated above even dry fed dogs can get it. There are many raw dogs that go very well with it. It just comes down to chance, as it does with all dog food.


----------



## MeganRose

Hope it's alright to ask here, didn't seem worth making a new thread for! Yesterday I gave my foster her first raw bone (as a treat, she has kibble normally), and she loved it, but today she threw up a little greeny stomach stuff, then a couple seconds later brought up a little piece about 10p sized of something. I squished it in a tissue and it didnt seem to be bone, but was obviously from the bone I gave her. 
Is that normal? & if it was her first bone? I've got more in the freezer, so would like to give her more but am a little worried thats not a good sign?


----------



## Lexiedhb

susie sweet86 said:


> PEOPLE! I started my dog on a raw food diet, mainly chicken based from a reputable company, unfortunately my little angel Mason got a combination of Salmonella and Campylobacter infection and unfortunately responded poorly to intense hospitaliation and passed away 1 month ago. I'm currently in touch my lawyers and in discussion with the company, who cannot be named for legal reasons, about compensation but according to the company this is just one of the risks associated with such diets. I fully regret not listening to the vets advice and using normal dog food. I miss Mason soo much


Awww so sorry for the loss of Mason
There are risks associated with kibble to tho, like bloat- which can be fatal.


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## juliem650

MeganRose said:


> Hope it's alright to ask here, didn't seem worth making a new thread for! Yesterday I gave my foster her first raw bone (as a treat, she has kibble normally), and she loved it, but today she threw up a little greeny stomach stuff, then a couple seconds later brought up a little piece about 10p sized of something. I squished it in a tissue and it didnt seem to be bone, but was obviously from the bone I gave her.
> Is that normal? & if it was her first bone? I've got more in the freezer, so would like to give her more but am a little worried thats not a good sign?


Meganrose
I'm no expert, but I started my three springers on a raw diet four months ago and thought I'd share my experiences.
I introduced a few different foods during the first few days and all three experienced mild vomiting, particularly overnight. I was told this was due to the acid in the stomach reacting differently to the protein-rich food and to give them a snack before bedtime. This worked and there have been no more instances.
We have eventually settled on a regular diet of twice daily tripe and chicken mix from DAF (superfood for dogs) which smells utterly disgusting (my daughter sent me a message when she was left to feed them when we were on holiday wondering how she was going to be able to deal with it). This is supplemented with seaweed powder, two or three meals a week of chicken wings and two or three of beef and heart chunks, sardines once a week and yoghurt now and again.
I started off with vegetables but it makes their stools sloppy so just give a few pieces of carrot or apple as a treat as they really enjoy it.
I've been really pleased with how it's gone. They eat their meals in 11 seconds flat and are bouncing with health and vitality. They have the most amazing shiny coats but one of the most impressive differences to me is the amount of waste they produce. On dry food it seemed as much was coming out as was going in so I knew it couldn't be good for them. Now the stools are hard and shiny, don't smell and, if I miss picking one up, they just crumble into dust
I initially wondered how I was going to cope with the routine but it's now become second nature. I take packs out of the freezer 48 hours before I need them and defrost in the fridge - that way the tripe is cold and not so smelly. Once left it at room temperature and it stank the house out. I am meticulous about washing bowls and hands immediately after feeding and I have a separate fridge and freezer in the cellar for their food.
Yes it's messy and inconvenient compared to dry food, yes it's more expensive, but after watching my last springer die of intestinal cancer I know it's the right thing to do and I've no regrets.
I learned everything I needed to know on this forum so it's worth spending a few hours checking the posts if you're going down the raw food path. Everyone has been really helpful and it's good to know there are others out there who have gone through the same doubts and misgivings as you. Especially when you have the majority of the veterinary profession telling you it's a bad thing and you're doing more harm than good. Good luck


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## princesssaskia

Thaisa said:


> I feel for you. I still have no issues with a raw diet at all. I look at my case as unfortunate. Saying that, I don't feed my other two dogs raw anymore. My rottie got Salmonella from some raw chicken. He had treatment, but all the anti bi's he had and vet stays, they could not not get a handle on it. This was January 2013 when it started. As soon as it seemed to stop, back it came worse. I lost him at six years of age in December 2013. He went from 9 stone in the end to four and a half. I had him put to sleep as his organs were packing up. It was the most devestating thing I have been through with a dog and I would not wish it on anyone. It stopped me feeding raw and to my dog that was left and my new leonberger puppy, I feed them nature diet trays. When you feed raw, there are risks that you should be aware of and know before starting it. As stated above even dry fed dogs can get it. There are many raw dogs that go very well with it. It just comes down to chance, as it does with all dog food.


I realise this will be a sensitive issue for some and of course I feel for those who sadly lost their dogs to salmonella or similar. However, as has been pointed out there are risks associated with dry food too, including bloat and - which is the most significant for me - the long term chronic disease that processed food seems a huge contributor to!

I just want to add this point as I believe its very important. A very healthy RAW fed dog can handle a HUGE amount of bacteria safely, their stomach acid is so strong that they can eat all manner of rotting things with no ill effects. HOWEVER, newly switched RAW fed dogs and those that are very young, very old or not in full health can be at risk of bacteria. What RAW feeders need to realise is that there are many companies these days jumping on the RAW food bandwagon and selling various dog RAW meats/minces which are actually from dubious sources. Even products containing meat described in the company literature as 'fit for human consumption' should be questioned.......... the reason for this is that personally, the vast majority of meat sold in our supermarkets I would not ever class as FIT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION (and this is supposedly 'better' than the cuts going into the RAW pet food - I say this because most supermarket meat comes from intensively reared animals, even the stuff marked 'free range' is not real free range !!!

Animals kept in these conditions are at greater risk of contracting disease and their carcasses are much more likely to harbor dangerous bacteria. Salmonella is virtually unheard of in organic meat because the animals live in much better conditions and are fed much better. Of course we cant all afford to feed our dogs organic meat but I would suggest that people bear the following points in mind......

- Try and establish links with small local free range, ethical producers - for example, I know a fab semi-organic free range chicken farmer who gives me carcass at £1 a kilo and often gives me loads of free chicken feet (great snacks) or chicken necks. over the years i have built a good relationship with him and am confident of the quality of his meat

- Poor quality, cheap RAW chicken is in my opinion, one of the most dangerous things you can feed your dog - but cheap beef and pork are pretty bad too.

- Finding a local gamekeeper or a local person who shoots rabbit/game birds etc is a fantastic source of things like rabbit, partridge, pheasant, pigeon and venison. Yes you may need to be a bit more hands on feeding these sorts of things BUT they are usually a VERY healthy source of quality, naturally free range/organic meat AND they are very very economical, especially if you buy them 'undressed' (I pay £1 - £2 per rabbit and I get as much pheasant as i can carry - minus the breast - for FREE in season !)

- Meat from local butchers can be great, if its well sourced. Never be afraid to ask your butcher where exactly the meat comes from and then do some research yourself as 'free range' doesnt always mean 'real' free range !

- Freezing meat as cold as possible for a few days is a good way of killing some bacteria, but certainly is not a guarantee . Feeding things like garlic and apple cyder vinegar can also counteract bacteria to some degree - provided the garlic/cyder vinegar is fresh and preferably organic !


----------



## princesssaskia

MeganRose said:


> Hope it's alright to ask here, didn't seem worth making a new thread for! Yesterday I gave my foster her first raw bone (as a treat, she has kibble normally), and she loved it, but today she threw up a little greeny stomach stuff, then a couple seconds later brought up a little piece about 10p sized of something. I squished it in a tissue and it didnt seem to be bone, but was obviously from the bone I gave her.
> Is that normal? & if it was her first bone? I've got more in the freezer, so would like to give her more but am a little worried thats not a good sign?


Hi Megan, I think you have highlighted an important point here (please dont take this as a personal attack on you, its not meant as that )

Im always amazed how many new RAW feeders excitedly give their kibble fed dog a RAW bone of some description as their first experience of a RAW diet, this is actually a bit of a risk for 2 reasons

1) firstly kibble fed dogs are not used to chewing since they largely just suck and swallow their food  In some cases kibble fed dogs can have weak, unexercised jaws too. Unless you are careful to hold the bone whilst encouraging them to chew, or cut the bone into very small mouthfuls then there can be a choking risk (until the dog learns that he needs to chew)

2) Even if you cut the bone up or the dogs gets it down without choking, a kibble fed dog will usually have a compromised digestive system including weak stomach acid. This means that the bone is not fully digested and there is a risk that the dog will either vomit it back up (not the end of the world) OR, more worryingly, that the undigested bone fractments will pass through the intestinal tract and could possibly perforate it or cause an obstruction - both cases could require expensive surgery or result in death

Im not saying this to scare people, I am a passionate and experienced RAW feeder of 16 years and I believe wholeheartedly that this is the healthiest way to feed. However, I am always saddened when people make simple RAW feeding mistakes which lead to disaster or unfortunate experiences - no less because the person responsible, who was acting with the right intentions, may be forever put off RAW feeding and because it provides ammunition for vets and the rest of the anti-RAW brigade to damn this way of feeding as dangerous !

Bones aside, feeding a kibble fed dog large quantities of RAW food can also result in vomiting or diarrhea because the dogs system cant cope with the different bacteria levels and composition of the new food. Of course its tempting to want to try your dog on a bit of everything, RAW diets offer so much variety and sometimes its hard to know what to introduce and when. As I always say, dogs are individuals too and what suits one is not necessarily right for another - all my RAW fed dogs have slight personal tweaks !!!!

There are those that promote the cold turkey approach when RAW feeding and certainly many youngish healthy dogs can cope with this but personally I find it a strain on their system to move straight from kibble to RAW. I would always suggest starting with a fairly bland minced carcass (that is a mince that includes minced meat AND minced bone) such as 'minced duck or minced turkey carcass, mixing it with a small amount of simple steamed veg (like carrots, pumpkin and greens) and COOKING it very lightly at first. This means that its not such a huge transition for the dog

Then, gradually, over the course of a few days to a week, simply cook the mince/veg less and less until you are RAW feeding it. Once the dog copes happily with that then start introducing different minced carcasses

Next, you can start feeding simple bones, chicken necks/wings are best, feed whole (encouraging the dog to chew) or bash them up a bit - by feeding bones you then open up a wider choice of minces since you then no longer have to worry about only feeding minced carcass because the necks/wings are providing the calcium !

Next, you can start to introduce oily fish, eggs and offal like liver and kidney

After this you can play with feeding different fruits/veg (try to follow whats in season) and of course you can start feeding whole chunks of meat, and other offal such as lung, etc etc

Finally you can experiment with different bones, small dogs should stick to necks and wings really but bigger dogs can tackle ribs and whole bird carcasses

Make the journey at a comfortable pace for you and your dog - its fine to feed minced carcass and a bit of veg for a while before introducing other stuff - though remember eggs, fish and rich offal provide vital nutrients (as does blood!) so you may want to supplement with a good quality pet multivitamin (I recommend the seaweed based ones like 'sea greens' as opposed to the chemically synthesized ones) Most RAW feeders take a couple of years to get really confident feeding this way and trust me, you NEVER stop searching for and discovering fabnew suppliers !!!!!!


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## Nicky10

1) Mince has more bacteria than bones, more surface area for it to accumulate
2) It does nothing to strengthen their jaws so how exactly does it help them work up to bones?
3) I'm pretty sure most recommendations are to switch to one, easy to digest protein and stick with that until the dog is used to it

I'd rather put a dog on bone in chicken pieces like breasts and let them have a go than mince.


----------



## williams500

Hi, my 9 month old leonberger has been raw feed all his life. The last 3 days he has gone off his food - he is eating nothing in the morning, maybe half his breakfast around lunch time and the other half for dinner. He is eating all his training treats and chews and stools are solid. I've heard they can sometimes fast - could this be what he is doing? Not sure if should be taking him too vets, anyone had a similar experience?


----------



## princesssaskia

Nicky10 said:


> 1) Mince has more bacteria than bones, more surface area for it to accumulate
> 2) It does nothing to strengthen their jaws so how exactly does it help them work up to bones?
> 3) I'm pretty sure most recommendations are to switch to one, easy to digest protein and stick with that until the dog is used to it
> 
> I'd rather put a dog on bone in chicken pieces like breasts and let them have a go than mince.


Hi Nicky, there is a need to get a grump on with me, especially since I wouldnt disagree with anything you said!!!!!

Mince CAN have more bacteria than bones, my point was that mince OR bones sourced from organic or free range animals generally have less bacteria

I didnt say mince strengthened their jaws!!!!! my point was that some new RAW feeders launch straight into feeding a great big bone that their dog struggles to cope with, by starting with mince or small meat chunks and then building upto to easy bones in small chunks if necessary first then the dogs jaw will be strengthened - its breed specific anyway, some breeds will never have a really strong jaw no matter how many chopped up necks they chew, whereas breeds like my bull terriers have pretty strong jaws regardless!

I have been RAW feeding and helping people switch to RAW for 16 years so Im quite confident I know how to switch a dog appropriately!!!! I ALWAYS recommend feeding one protein source (usually a bland minced carcass such as duck, turkey or chicken) mixed with a little veg first - the NEXT step is to introduce the dog (slowly and one at a time) to different minces. HOWEVER, the only reason to do this is for dogs that you suspect may have allergies to something or who can be fussy about switching to RAW. To feed a dog a variety of protein sources from the off is not dangerous, I have done it numerous times with no ill effect, particularly with young, healthy dogs. If you do encounter an allergic reaction such as vomiting, diarrhoea or cramps when doing this all you do is retrace your steps, eliminating the new minces/meats 1 at a time until you find the offender !

AND, this still isnt the whole picture since I have worked with many dogs who actually show allergic reactions to poor quality chicken or chicken kibble for example but can tolerate fresh proper free range chicken !!!! AND I have worked with dogs who are allergic to numerous things at the start but, once RAW has strengthened their systems a bit, they can actually tolerate a wider range of foods !

Finally, its worth noting that some dogs do not suffer an 'instant' allergic reaction. For some, its an accumulation over time that results typically in skin hotspots and its VERY difficult to attribute to a particular meat because it happens over a long period of time. Its not possible to eliminate this simply by feeding ONE protein source for months at a time because feeding the same thing long term can actually spark an intolerance in some animals (the same thing happens in people) whats more a RAW diet should be varied to be truly nutritious

As for your point on starting a dog on chicken pieces, well actually I agree !!! If you have a good source of chicken bones AND you and your dog are confident then its a great way to start - you must appreciate thata I work with a LOT of people who love the idea of RAW but are VERY nervous about how to start and are particularly scared of bones - for these people minces and veg are an easy introduction to the RAW way of feeding !:wink:


----------



## princesssaskia

williams500 said:


> Hi, my 9 month old leonberger has been raw feed all his life. The last 3 days he has gone off his food - he is eating nothing in the morning, maybe half his breakfast around lunch time and the other half for dinner. He is eating all his training treats and chews and stools are solid. I've heard they can sometimes fast - could this be what he is doing? Not sure if should be taking him too vets, anyone had a similar experience?


Hiya, I think that its important to take a cue from the dog where food is concerned. Although large breeds like your lovely boy need ample food for growth and should usually stay on 3 meals a day longer than small/medium breeds (which should really be switched to 2 meals daily from 6 months) it may be that at 9 months he is now ready to be dropped to 2 meals a day!

Its perfectly healthy for dogs to fast and many RAW feeders, myself included, regularly fast all my adult dogs for a full day each week. Bull Terrier pups of 10 or 11 months can also be safely fasted for the odd day and I do this before shows but not younger pups and not necessarily bigger breeds of the same age (usually wait to they are 18 months before intentionally fasting). However, if he chooses to fast himself for a day then thats not the end of the world - its how they naturally rebalance and restore their digestive system. When fasting make sure there is ample fresh water available.

In your case, I might consider semi-fasting for one day, so I would give NO breakfast, NO lunch and then a big bowl of sort of meaty soup in the evening and then then the next day start feeding just 2 meals a day - some dogs prefer a smaller meal to start the day and then a big one in the eve (which is then digested nicely overnight while the dog rests)

Be careful with the training treats and chews, use super small pieces and give him a bull bar or something to chew on instead of chew sticks which a) he can eat and are therefore filling him up with something not that nutritious or worse b) get stuck in his throat (many dogs die each year from choking on chew toys)

Of course, the most important thing is that you know your boy better than anyone, if he seems listless, or is showing any other symptoms or is still not eager to eat after following my advice above then YES take him to the vets for a check up, better safe than sorry !!! (just try and find a pro RAW vet if you want to avoid the usual anti-RAW lecture!!!:wink

these are the bull bars i mean - FANTASTIC for all dogs especially those of us with strong jaw breeds - virtually indestructible !!!! mine have been sharing 2 between them since xmas and they have hardly made a dent in them yet they gnaw on them constantly !!!! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/2513...ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Another question about bones - I'm trying to move away from the pre prepared minces especially any with bone as I give my lot a carcass or bone of some sort for their dinner every night. I've ordered in some more chunks of meat but saw these which it says are non weight bearing beef bones

Natural Pet food - additive free pet food

would they be safe to give them to eat or would I need to treat them the same as the recreational type knuckle bones and remove them once all the yummy bits have been removed?


----------



## bearcub

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Another question about bones - I'm trying to move away from the pre prepared minces especially any with bone as I give my lot a carcass or bone of some sort for their dinner every night. I've ordered in some more chunks of meat but saw these which it says are non weight bearing beef bones
> 
> Natural Pet food - additive free pet food
> 
> would they be safe to give them to eat or would I need to treat them the same as the recreational type knuckle bones and remove them once all the yummy bits have been removed?


With bones like the ones in the picture you linked I would treat them like recreational bones and let them have a good half hour or so ripping, tearing and gnawing all the good stuff and then discard the bone. Their boney meals tend to be three or four chicken carcass meals and one or two rib meals per week which I find just the right amount of bone to keep their diet balanced. Any bone given on top of that is simply recreational.


----------



## Nicky10

princesssaskia said:


> Hi Nicky, there is a need to get a grump on with me, especially since I wouldnt disagree with anything you said!!!!!
> 
> Mince CAN have more bacteria than bones, my point was that mince OR bones sourced from organic or free range animals generally have less bacteria
> 
> I didnt say mince strengthened their jaws!!!!! my point was that some new RAW feeders launch straight into feeding a great big bone that their dog struggles to cope with, by starting with mince or small meat chunks and then building upto to easy bones in small chunks if necessary first then the dogs jaw will be strengthened - its breed specific anyway, some breeds will never have a really strong jaw no matter how many chopped up necks they chew, whereas breeds like my bull terriers have pretty strong jaws regardless!


I wasn't suggesting a big bone, a bone in chicken breast or a bit of rabbit is easy for most dogs even toys to handle. Obviously some dogs are never going to be able to handle harder bones but I prefer to start them on bone in chunks to teach them to chew not gulp.



> I have been RAW feeding and helping people switch to RAW for 16 years so Im quite confident I know how to switch a dog appropriately!!!! I ALWAYS recommend feeding one protein source (usually a bland minced carcass such as duck, turkey or chicken) mixed with a little veg first - the NEXT step is to introduce the dog (slowly and one at a time) to different minces. HOWEVER, the only reason to do this is for dogs that you suspect may have allergies to something or who can be fussy about switching to RAW. To feed a dog a variety of protein sources from the off is not dangerous, I have done it numerous times with no ill effect, particularly with young, healthy dogs. If you do encounter an allergic reaction such as vomiting, diarrhoea or cramps when doing this all you do is retrace your steps, eliminating the new minces/meats 1 at a time until you find the offender !


I would only suggest more variety in the case of a puppy as generally they can handle it. Certainly for an adult or older puppy one protein source at a time is best. Some handle variety better than others of course.



> AND, this still isnt the whole picture since I have worked with many dogs who actually show allergic reactions to poor quality chicken or chicken kibble for example but can tolerate fresh proper free range chicken !!!! AND I have worked with dogs who are allergic to numerous things at the start but, once RAW has strengthened their systems a bit, they can actually tolerate a wider range of foods !


Yes I've heard of those dogs too even heard of severely corn allergic dogs reacting to corn fed chicken but not to those fed a natural diet.



> Finally, its worth noting that some dogs do not suffer an 'instant' allergic reaction. For some, its an accumulation over time that results typically in skin hotspots and its VERY difficult to attribute to a particular meat because it happens over a long period of time. Its not possible to eliminate this simply by feeding ONE protein source for months at a time because feeding the same thing long term can actually spark an intolerance in some animals (the same thing happens in people) whats more a RAW diet should be varied to be truly nutritious


Yes of course and they can even become allergic to a completely novel protein when it's introduced in the middle of an allergy crisis. However, an elimination diet is the best way to figure out allergies once it's been established they're food related.



> As for your point on starting a dog on chicken pieces, well actually I agree !!! If you have a good source of chicken bones AND you and your dog are confident then its a great way to start - you must appreciate thata I work with a LOT of people who love the idea of RAW but are VERY nervous about how to start and are particularly scared of bones - for these people minces and veg are an easy introduction to the RAW way of feeding !:wink:


I understand that and for some people it's much easier to pretend their food or the food they're feeding their animals never had a face. I'd still recommended they start with bone in chunks should they able to handle it

I didn't mean my previous message to come across as nastily as it did my apologies 



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Another question about bones - I'm trying to move away from the pre prepared minces especially any with bone as I give my lot a carcass or bone of some sort for their dinner every night. I've ordered in some more chunks of meat but saw these which it says are non weight bearing beef bones
> 
> Natural Pet food - additive free pet food
> 
> would they be safe to give them to eat or would I need to treat them the same as the recreational type knuckle bones and remove them once all the yummy bits have been removed?


Beef bones can be hard to chew although I can't imagine a rottie will have much problems. I'd prefer to feed bones with a bit more meat on them but they should be fine to feed.


----------



## SecondHandRose

Hello there,

Just wanted to introduce myself and say "Hello"! I have adopted a 4-5 month old Labrador cross who is being raw-fed. He will be arriving on Saturday. As this will be my first dog and I had never heard of raw feeding until very recently. I have read lots of info on raw feeding but I still feel a bit overwhelmed! 

I have a 'Pets at Home' near me and have checked out the frozen section and purchased some Nature's Menu raw treats. I'm assuming that it will be ok to start with this type of food? I also keep reading about 'raw meaty bones'. Where do I purchase these from? I have a good local butcher - would bones from him be suitable?

Apologies for all of the questions, I'm nervous of getting things wrong!

Kind regards x


----------



## DirtyGertie

SecondHandRose said:


> Hello there,
> 
> Just wanted to introduce myself and say "Hello"! I have adopted a 4-5 month old Labrador cross who is being raw-fed. He will be arriving on Saturday. As this will be my first dog and I had never heard of raw feeding until very recently. I have read lots of info on raw feeding but I still feel a bit overwhelmed!
> 
> I have a 'Pets at Home' near me and have checked out the frozen section and purchased some Nature's Menu raw treats. I'm assuming that it will be ok to start with this type of food? I also keep reading about 'raw meaty bones'. Where do I purchase these from? I have a good local butcher - would bones from him be suitable?
> 
> Apologies for all of the questions, I'm nervous of getting things wrong!
> 
> Kind regards x


It might be an idea to ask whoever you are getting the dog from what they feed, what he's already used to, where they get their food from, etc.

Some info about bones on this site appropriate foods - The Dog's Dinner - by Ann Ridyard, lots of other useful stuff as well, just click through all the links.

Obviously, reading through this thread from the beginning is useful, plus this one too http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/188747-whats-bowl-today.html.

Lots of raw feeders here happy to help with any questions .


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## SecondHandRose

Many thanks, DirtyGertie! Those are very useful links x


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## princesssaskia

SecondHandRose said:


> Hello there,
> 
> Just wanted to introduce myself and say "Hello"! I have adopted a 4-5 month old Labrador cross who is being raw-fed. He will be arriving on Saturday. As this will be my first dog and I had never heard of raw feeding until very recently. I have read lots of info on raw feeding but I still feel a bit overwhelmed!
> 
> I have a 'Pets at Home' near me and have checked out the frozen section and purchased some Nature's Menu raw treats. I'm assuming that it will be ok to start with this type of food? I also keep reading about 'raw meaty bones'. Where do I purchase these from? I have a good local butcher - would bones from him be suitable?
> 
> Apologies for all of the questions, I'm nervous of getting things wrong!
> 
> Kind regards x


Hiya and welcome, yes I would also say that your first point of reference should be the person you are getting the dog from if it is already being raw fed - was this person the dogs breeder?

There are many different ways of RAW feeding - some people prefer 'complete' minces or easy pre-packed raw meals, others like myself are more hands on and feed whole carcass, meat and offal. Whichever route you choose you should aim to feed the following each week..............

1) A variety of different meats, aim for around 4. If you were switching a dog to RAW for the first time you would introduce the meats slowly 1 at a time but since your dog is already RAW fed (and presumably has been for a while?) then you should be good - find out what he is eating already, most people find meat like pork, beef, chicken and lamb easy to get hold of though personally i steer clear of beef and pork (because free range/organic beef & pork is not the most economical and because they are the most likely to produce an allergic response) I usually feed a combination of Lamb, Lamb tripe, Chicken, Goat, Duck, Pheasant, Rabbit, Venison, Pigeon and Partridge.

2) Bones - the best bones for young dogs to start with are chicken necks and duck necks, then chicken wings or duck wings and then progressing to whole carcass and ribs once they are older - though this depends on the size of the dog and the strength of their jaw - dogs need bone to provide essential calcium and other nutrients. If you do not feed whole bones you MUST ensure you feed a mince which contains minced bone or your dog will quickly become sick.

3) A bit of blended fruit and Veg: avoid citrus fruits, tomatoes, leeks, potato and onions but you can feed pretty much everything else. Remember that dogs dont possess the enzymes to digest vegetable matter unless it has already been partially broken down, so if you want your dog to obtain maximum nutrients from his fruit/veg then you need to lightly steam and blend it first. You can also add small amounts of herbs and spices to his food which will have health benefits and help to ward off parasites

4) A bit of liver and kidney - small amounts, spread across the week, source the best quality you can, preferably organic

5)an egg or 2 - again organic or at least free range, feed the whole thing raw shell and all

6) A portion or 2 of oily fish - tinned sardines or mackerel are good (choose the ones in oil over the ones in tomato sauce or brine) fresh raw fish is great but not all dogs can stomach it

Here is an example of the sort of thing I feed my dogs - there is lots of useful info on each page if you scroll through the pictures

https://www.facebook.com/feedyourdo...7193446394153/609620535818109/?type=1&theater

A dog of 4 or 5 months should still be eating 3 meals a day until 6 months old then 2 meals a day - here is an example menu for a pup of 4 / 5 months

https://www.facebook.com/greenloveb...4011846787624/149632825225526/?type=1&theater

If you wanted any more info on why feeding RAW is good and how to feed bones safely then read this guide I wrote

https://www.facebook.com/greenloveb...4011846787624/154402401415235/?type=1&theater

any questions just fire away, we are all happy to help - i have been RAW feeding for 16 years now and raise all my bull terrier pups this way. I help people with dogs of all breeds switch to RAW on a daily basis and have a facebook page dedicated to RAW feeding www.facebook.com/feedyourdograw


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## Tilldob

I have posted this on the Dry food index also. My Tillie has been diagnosed with Lymphoma and is currently having Chemo. She is fed raw minces at present bue i am concerned she could pick up a bug from the raw due to her immune system being low.Any suggestions to a good quality kibble or alternative to the minces.


----------



## DirtyGertie

Tilldob said:


> I have posted this on the Dry food index also. My Tillie has been diagnosed with Lymphoma and is currently having Chemo. She is fed raw minces at present bue i am concerned she could pick up a bug from the raw due to her immune system being low.Any suggestions to a good quality kibble or alternative to the minces.


To be honest, I'm not sure you can be 100% certain kibble (or other commercial food) is bug free. I've read that there have been cases of salmonella from kibble and there have been recalls of both kibble and wet due to problems of one sort or another. What about a home cooked diet? The cooking would kill off any bacteria and you would know exactly what you are giving her.


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## Goblin

DirtyGertie said:


> I've read that there have been cases of salmonella from kibble and there have been recalls of both kibble and wet due to problems of one sort or another.


To my knowledge none of which have been in the UK or even in the EU I would be more wary of treats, such as turkey jerkey and such, especially if they are not sourced from the UK.

Personally i would look at it as a two edged sword in your situation, the right food with a potential risk (and there is a risk) or kibble which may or not be right for your dog. I'd probably start by looking at something like Millies Wolfheart or Orijin if I could afford it. Not being an experienced kibble feeder have you looked through http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-and-nutrition/255727-updated-dry-dog-food-index.html looking for ingredients high in meat?

As DirtyGertie's mentioned home cooked is another option if you can research it and are able to sort it out. Not sure how practical it is for you.


----------



## Nicky10

Tilldob said:


> I have posted this on the Dry food index also. My Tillie has been diagnosed with Lymphoma and is currently having Chemo. She is fed raw minces at present bue i am concerned she could pick up a bug from the raw due to her immune system being low.Any suggestions to a good quality kibble or alternative to the minces.


I have read about oncologists recommending that dogs not be fed raw while on chemo. It might be worth asking them especially with her immune system quite weak. Millies wolfheart or eden is what I'd feed if I wasn't feeding raw.

There have been recalls, many of them in the US, but they were mostly for the risk of infecting humans not dogs.


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## Tilldob

Thanks everyone. I have been to Morrisons and bought some Turkey thighs,Turkey mince,Ox heart and Liver
Also she seems bloated/full of wind anything i could give to help this?


----------



## knuckingfuts

I'll look through all 1628 posts yikes when I have time over the next few years but just wanted a quick overview.

I originally thought raw for Max would be a little bit expensive but I have been looking into raw for my new kitten and I have found the basic raw ingredients to be reasonable cost and I have another chest freezer now so would have room.

Basically, how is raw feeding different for dogs as compared to cats? Its the same ratio as far as I know - is there simply more of it? Are vitamin supplements generally used?


----------



## Nicky10

knuckingfuts said:


> I'll look through all 1628 posts yikes when I have time over the next few years but just wanted a quick overview.
> 
> I originally thought raw for Max would be a little bit expensive but I have been looking into raw for my new kitten and I have found the basic raw ingredients to be reasonable cost and I have another chest freezer now so would have room.
> 
> Basically, how is raw feeding different for dogs as compared to cats? Its the same ratio as far as I know - is there simply more of it? Are vitamin supplements generally used?


Cats are much more complicated you'd be better asking down in their section. As I understand it you need to feed the exact ratios per meal and worry more about taurine supplementation


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## knuckingfuts

Nicky10 said:


> Cats are much more complicated you'd be better asking down in their section. As I understand it you need to feed the exact ratios per meal and worry more about taurine supplementation


I have asked in Cat section. Now I'm interested in dog nutrition and wanted to know the difference.

Can you mince all the soft bits and just separate into portions and give ribs, carcass etc?

Is there any requirement to alternate the animals?


----------



## Nicky10

knuckingfuts said:


> I have asked in Cat section. Now I'm interested in dog nutrition and wanted to know the difference.
> 
> Can you mince all the soft bits and just separate into portions and give ribs, carcass etc?
> 
> Is there any requirement to alternate the animals?


Dogs can be balanced over time without causing issues. So you can feed one or two organ meals a week for example and feed the entire week's portion in those. I prefer not to feed minced food but you can mince the soft bits and give meaty bones for the bone in portion.

You don't have to alternate the animals but you do have to feed a variety. Some people get stuck on just feeding chicken or rabbit, neither of which have all the nutrients required.


----------



## knuckingfuts

Nicky10 said:


> Dogs can be balanced over time without causing issues. So you can feed one or two organ meals a week for example and feed the entire week's portion in those. *I prefer not to feed minced food but you can mince the soft bits and give meaty bones for the bone in portion. *
> 
> You don't have to alternate the animals but you do have to feed a variety. Some people get stuck on just feeding chicken or rabbit, neither of which have all the nutrients required.


Yeah, I wasn't clear there I did mean leave the bones out of the mince to be eaten whole.

Short term, can you stick with one animal? I am sure I read somewhere you should start with one, get them settled then add other varieties one at a time.

Where does tripe fit in the 80/10/5/5 model?


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## pogo

knuckingfuts said:


> Yeah, I wasn't clear there I did mean leave the bones out of the mince to be eaten whole.
> 
> Short term, can you stick with one animal? I am sure I read somewhere you should start with one, get them settled then add other varieties one at a time.
> 
> Where does tripe fit in the 80/10/5/5 model?


Don't get caught up in numbers and ratios, the diet balances it's self over a period of time which is more natural, but tripe is just fed as meat it is not classed as organ meat


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## Nicky10

You start with one species, generally chicken as its quite bland, bone heavy and has easy to digest bones, feed only that for a couple of weeks to see how they react to it. Then add in another and so on.


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## samspan

Hi all. 
My first post so please bear with me for all the silly questions!
I am gradually working my way through this really useful thread - I'm nearly at the end of 2010 now. I am keen to get started on raw but have approx 2 weeks kibble left (Millie's Wolfheart and TOTW). Is there any benefit to starting raw for one meal a day and kibble for the other? I was thinking of a chicken quarter at breakfast then kibble at tea to give more digestion time?
I have 2 babes, a 2 year old wcs and a15 week ess. The latter is already about 8kg so would she be too big for chicken wings now? She is a VERY enthusiastic eater and literally inhales her kibble, no chewing, so want to play on the safe side. I guess I could swap her fully to raw and just keep my older boy on 50/50.
My other silly question regards the logistics of feeding raw and the hygiene side. Do you all feed outside or have a dedicated munching and crunching area? I am just imagining having to wash all the floors after every meal! 
Have also looked at Honeys preprepared raw. Is this a bit of a cop out or is it useful to use in conjunction with RMB?
Thanks for any advice. I'm driving hubby mad as I'm constantly on the net reading and researching so I think I ought to crack on now and put it in practice, but it still seems very daunting!
Sally


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## pogo

Hygiene wise honestly i don't care, the eat outside if they want on a nice day, but i have an old leather 'dog' sofa which harvey likes to eat on, but 99% of their meals are fed frozen and bones are eaten just on the carpet as there such a small amount of mess which they clean up anyway. I hoover everyday anyway and just give the area a quick spray and that's it.


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## catpud

samspan said:


> Hi all.
> My first post so please bear with me for all the silly questions!
> I am gradually working my way through this really useful thread - I'm nearly at the end of 2010 now. I am keen to get started on raw but have approx 2 weeks kibble left (Millie's Wolfheart and TOTW). Is there any benefit to starting raw for one meal a day and kibble for the other? I was thinking of a chicken quarter at breakfast then kibble at tea to give more digestion time?
> I have 2 babes, a 2 year old wcs and a15 week ess. The latter is already about 8kg so would she be too big for chicken wings now? She is a VERY enthusiastic eater and literally inhales her kibble, no chewing, so want to play on the safe side. I guess I could swap her fully to raw and just keep my older boy on 50/50.
> My other silly question regards the logistics of feeding raw and the hygiene side. Do you all feed outside or have a dedicated munching and crunching area? I am just imagining having to wash all the floors after every meal!
> Have also looked at Honeys preprepared raw. Is this a bit of a cop out or is it useful to use in conjunction with RMB?
> Thanks for any advice. I'm driving hubby mad as I'm constantly on the net reading and researching so I think I ought to crack on now and put it in practice, but it still seems very daunting!
> Sally


You can feed one meal of one and another of raw - it shouldn't cause problems and you may as well use up what you have.

Your 8kg dog should have no trouble with chicken wings, here is a photo I have posted before of my oversized collie munching on a chicken wing, he is 3 times your dogs weight or there abouts. If you are worried just hold one end of the wing while the dog crunches.

I just feed outside in decent weather or on the kitchen floor (lino) which is mopped with dettol afterwards.

I prefer to get from the local butchers and just feed him that way, much cheaper. But if you are more comfortable starting with a pre prepared raw then that is fine too, just be aware that the price may work out quite high.


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## rottiepointerhouse

Hi Sally

I'm no expert as have only been feeding raw since February. I started by adding a complete mince to my dogs usual kibble over a few days, so 75% kibble to 25% raw one day, 50:50 the next then 25% kibble to 75% raw on the last day and full raw the next. However its not necessary to do that.

Regarding Honeys I looked at them initially and have their very useful little book "Natural feeding handbook for dogs". However I didn't think they were very flexible about what they send you and also thought they were pretty expensive. So to start out I got some minces from Natural Instinct most of which have ground bone, veggies, fruit and oils added. I fed that for a couple of weeks before moving onto adding in chicken carcass. I hadn't read this site at the time so didn't know about introducing one protein source at a time and just fed a variety of the minces but none of mine have ever suffered from any food intolerances. I also made a fairly typical mistake of trying ribs too soon which resulted in a few episodes of sickness with little shards so was advised to leave those until later on when my dogs had adjusted to raw.

Once I gained in confidence I started to use a local supplier for things like meat chunks, offal and more variety of carcass as well as our local butcher (for trotters and pigs tails). Two of mine won't eat raw offal or heart so I do lightly cook those and I lightly steam veggies although they aren't necessary but I use them to bulk out the food for my rottie who needs to get some weight off. I still feed some mince but not the complete ones anymore.

Regarding hygiene I think everyone has their own routine, I feed their mince and chunks from their bowls as I would have with kibble but for carcass/bone I have to separate mine as one would rescource guard his and the rottie is so greedy she would eat hers fast then try to steal the others. So I have old quilt covers and put one down in 3 different rooms (kitchen, hall, lounge) - they know they have their bones on those and sit on their covers waiting. I keep them separated like that until all are finished then collect covers up before having them back together just to avoid any nonsense. Covers get washed as and when needed. I've never fancied feeding in the garden due to flies etc but know some people do.


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## Nicky10

samspan said:


> Hi all.
> My first post so please bear with me for all the silly questions!
> I am gradually working my way through this really useful thread - I'm nearly at the end of 2010 now. I am keen to get started on raw but have approx 2 weeks kibble left (Millie's Wolfheart and TOTW). Is there any benefit to starting raw for one meal a day and kibble for the other? I was thinking of a chicken quarter at breakfast then kibble at tea to give more digestion time?
> I have 2 babes, a 2 year old wcs and a15 week ess. The latter is already about 8kg so would she be too big for chicken wings now? She is a VERY enthusiastic eater and literally inhales her kibble, no chewing, so want to play on the safe side. I guess I could swap her fully to raw and just keep my older boy on 50/50.
> My other silly question regards the logistics of feeding raw and the hygiene side. Do you all feed outside or have a dedicated munching and crunching area? I am just imagining having to wash all the floors after every meal!
> Have also looked at Honeys preprepared raw. Is this a bit of a cop out or is it useful to use in conjunction with RMB?
> Thanks for any advice. I'm driving hubby mad as I'm constantly on the net reading and researching so I think I ought to crack on now and put it in practice, but it still seems very daunting!
> Sally


There is no evidence that feeding raw and kibble together causes any problems, despite what the internet appears to believe. I'd just switch to raw for both meals with bone in chicken but you might feel more comfortable feeding kibble as well.

I don't like feeding chicken wings but plenty do with no issues. If you're worried about gulping feed big chunks and trade for a nice treat once you think she's had enough.

Buster's fed on a towel which can then just be picked up and washed. But really there's little risk to humans unless you have someone immunocompromised in the house. Most cases of salmonella in humans come from unwashed salad not meat.


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## samspan

Thanks for the speedy replies. 
If I swap little one over, would this be ok for first couple of weeks:- 250g boneless chicken am, 250g boneless chicken lunch, one chicken quarter for tea. As I say she is 8kg now and I expect her to get to approx 23kg.
For my 2 year old who's 13.4kg I'll just give a chicken quarter for brekkie and then kibble for tea.
Should I do this for 2 weeks?
Big thanks
S


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## samspan

Hi
Can anyone confirm that my feeding above is suitable for starting my 15 week puppy on please?
Thanks


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## rottiepointerhouse

samspan said:


> Hi
> Can anyone confirm that my feeding above is suitable for starting my 15 week puppy on please?
> Thanks


I don't have any experience of feeding a puppy on raw I'm afraid but I don't think there are any hard and fast rules. Sleeping Lion is probably the best person to ask but I'm not sure if she checks this thread so might be worth sending her a message asking her to have a look.


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## forfar

samspan said:


> Thanks for the speedy replies.
> If I swap little one over, would this be ok for first couple of weeks:- 250g boneless chicken am, 250g boneless chicken lunch, one chicken quarter for tea. As I say she is 8kg now and I expect her to get to approx 23kg.
> For my 2 year old who's 13.4kg I'll just give a chicken quarter for brekkie and then kibble for tea.
> Should I do this for 2 weeks?
> Big thanks
> S


I'm no expert on raw feeding. This is what I feed at the moment.

15 week old labrador pup 11kg. Roughly about 600g/800g a day spread over 4 meals.
I try to weigh the food about once a week. I've forgotten how fast pups grow.

I'm going on the roughly 8% of weight he is now. As he's small for a labrador and I don't know what his adult weight will be.

He's been fed raw for about 8 weeks now.

Like you I started with chicken but it was chicken wings he got.

Really scary another inhaler of food.

I went to farmfoods and bought bags of chicken thighs and he slowed down the eating probably because they were bigger.

So at the start he was fed two to three chicken thighs and a couple of chicken wings.( the chicken wings were cut off the whole chicken I bought for us.)

8 weeks later on a weely basis he gets, whole mackerel about twice a week
liver(pork,lamb or beef) once a week. Kidneys ( lamb and beef) once a week.
Lamb ribs twice a week, chicken carcases when I don't roast the chicken. 
Chicken wings. Three eggs a week. I got tongue which went down well
and still on chicken thighs to make up the rest.

I try to feed the 80% meat 10% bone 10% offal.

When first starting I only fed chicken for the first week then started adding in the 
rest as the weeks have progressed.

I have also got kongs for both dogs which get peanut butter added but I add full fat greek yogurt to the pups.

I have been feeding raw for three years now.

I started with a 12 year old and a 6 year old labradors.
I switched straight over to raw and have been really lucky in my dogs don't have 
any problems with the switch. I do continue to check their poos. If it's too crumbly I feed more meat and soft or runny I up the bones ( although over feed 
liver and that can cause too soft poos .)

My old boy died last year but I got great pleasure in watching him eat his raw food. He was just over 14 years when he died.

So on getting my pup I felt I had no confidence in feeding him properly, but
after asking on here I have gained my confidence back .

What you're doing seems to be what I did asking the right questions and doing loads of research.

I hope this is some help.


----------



## ruwise

I may be getting a pup who is being fed mainly raw but with some kibble. I just don't have the freezer space to totally raw feed and for puppy training I was considering using the Sophia Yin Learn to Earn method which would be a lot trickier with raw. Would I be ok to do half and half? I know some people seem to think this is not ok but I don't know of any scientific reason why? We are looking to move house in the next 2 years and at that stage I would like to raw feed totally so though if I could keep up some element of raw feeding it would make it easier. 

Can anybody give advice on this. Obviously if there is any proven problem with mixing I wouldn't do it.


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## suesdogs15

Hi , haven't been on here for a while and was wondering if anyone uses a dehydrator to make their own dog treats. One of my dogs has acquired an allergy, still trying to find out what it is, and I was thinking why do I give them dog biscuits as treats when I feed them raw. I have decided to remove all "E" numbers and artificial colourings. What I want to know is what sort of foods you have used and what size you have made the treats


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## DirtyGertie

suesdogs15 said:


> Hi , haven't been on here for a while and was wondering if anyone uses a dehydrator to make their own dog treats. One of my dogs has acquired an allergy, still trying to find out what it is, and I was thinking why do I give them dog biscuits as treats when I feed them raw. I have decided to remove all "E" numbers and artificial colourings. What I want to know is what sort of foods you have used and what size you have made the treats


Pogo has a dehydrator and makes lots of things for her dogs and for sale. You could PM her or pop a message in dog chat with her name in the title and she'll probably see it if she's around.


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## suesdogs15

DirtyGertie said:


> Pogo has a dehydrator and makes lots of things for her dogs and for sale. You could PM her or pop a message in dog chat with her name in the title and she'll probably see it if she's around.


Thanks I knew it was someone who was on regularly but couldn't remember their name , thanks


----------



## wannab

Hi I'm just starting to feed my border collie raw food due to him being allergic and very fuzzy on what he will eat , first does he need vegetables in his diet as he tends to leave them all over the place and how do I make sure he is getting the right amount of vits and minerals 
Thank you


----------



## DirtyGertie

wannab said:


> Hi I'm just starting to feed my border collie raw food due to him being allergic and very fuzzy on what he will eat , first does he need vegetables in his diet as he tends to leave them all over the place and how do I make sure he is getting the right amount of vits and minerals
> Thank you


No, vegetables are not essential. They would need to be blended in a food processor or use the "mush" remaining from juicing them for them to be absorbed in any way by a dog, otherwise they come out the rear end the same way as they went in the front end! Some people like to give them, some dogs like them (mine does) but it's not an essential part of a raw diet. There has been quite a few new "complete" raw foods coming on the market recently which contain veggies, fruit, etc., which makes those products quite expensive. It's much cheaper to just buy the meat (chunks or minces), the offal and bone and DIY.

As for vitamins and minerals, *here* is a list of what different meats/fish contain. Once established on a raw diet, if you give a variety of proteins you'll find that all the necessary vits and mins should be included.


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## suesdogs15

Two questions in a many days lol. I have just acquired a new lurcher puppy to add to my pack, a greyhound and two other lurchers . I am the 4th owner for this little 11month old girl, so she hasn't had the best of starts. I think the last owner forgot that you need to feed her and she is very thin. The vet says she is healthy apart from the weight. I have wormed her as she had, had no inoculations so I assumed she won't have been wormed either. I have got her on to raw feeding and she loves it,and I have had no problems with her. I have worked out her food on the assumption she will be about 22kgs so she gets about 600gms daily which is about 3%. She has put on 2kgs since I have had her, about 8 weeks, but now she seems to have stopped. I am unsure if I should up it further as I have never needed to go above 3% and any advice will be very helpful.


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## stusam85

Hi, I've not been on here for a while but I need some advice so I hope no-one minds me asking. We've got 2 rescue dogs, a Belgian Shepherd type (Wolfie) and a Spanish hound cross (Storm). At the moment they're both fed Acana adult dog food as Wolfie is allergic to cereals. I think he is now developing an allergy to rice as well .. possibly a more generic gluten allergy. I've thought about feeding raw before but it's never been feasible here in Spain. However, I've just found a Spanish butcher that sells pet mince in frozen blocks. I've asked what's in the mince and he looked a bit strange at me and said .. "meat"... I asked him to be a bit more specific and he said there was a variety of meat and offal, no bone as he sells dog bones separate. My question is how do I work out how much mince I would need to feed my dogs and would I need to also buy the pet bones (I'm thinking yes .. but how many and how often?) Are there any other things I would need to feed them? I've read that you need to introduce raw slowly but how would I do that with the mince ... do I continue to feed their kibble? I think it should be separate meals - but again I'm not sure!
Sorry for the long post and all the questions ... there is just so much info that I'm a bit confused :confused5:
(Wolfie is about 35kg but very sedentary due to health issues, he's 10 years old and has arthritis and shot gun pellet in one leg! Storm is 25kg, 3 years old and quite hyper at times!)


----------



## DirtyGertie

stusam85 said:


> Hi, I've not been on here for a while but I need some advice so I hope no-one minds me asking. We've got 2 rescue dogs, a Belgian Shepherd type (Wolfie) and a Spanish hound cross (Storm). At the moment they're both fed Acana adult dog food as Wolfie is allergic to cereals. I think he is now developing an allergy to rice as well .. possibly a more generic gluten allergy. I've thought about feeding raw before but it's never been feasible here in Spain. However, I've just found a Spanish butcher that sells pet mince in frozen blocks. I've asked what's in the mince and he looked a bit strange at me and said .. "meat"... I asked him to be a bit more specific and he said there was a variety of meat and offal, no bone as he sells dog bones separate. My question is how do I work out how much mince I would need to feed my dogs and would I need to also buy the pet bones (I'm thinking yes .. but how many and how often?) Are there any other things I would need to feed them? I've read that you need to introduce raw slowly but how would I do that with the mince ... do I continue to feed their kibble? I think it should be separate meals - but again I'm not sure!
> Sorry for the long post and all the questions ... there is just so much info that I'm a bit confused :confused5:
> (Wolfie is about 35kg but very sedentary due to health issues, he's 10 years old and has arthritis and shot gun pellet in one leg! Storm is 25kg, 3 years old and quite hyper at times!)


Please don't start feeding raw while you're confused, you really do need to understand what you're doing so some research is a must.

A couple of links to get you going:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-and-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html - you don't need to read it all, you'll get the idea after a few pages.

quickstart - The Dog's Dinner - by Ann Ridyard

The part about introducing raw slowly is to do with introducing the different proteins, and that's because if you go ahead and feed lots of different meats all within a few days and your dog has a reaction then you wont know which meat has caused it (and you'd avoid that particular meat in future). So you'd start off with one protein source for a week or so, if pooch is fine on that then you'd introduce a second source of protein for a week, and if everything is fine then a third one, etc. With your butcher's mince containing "a variety" of meats then it's not as easy for you. Perhaps try it and see if there's any reactions. Offal is generally left until last by most people and then introduced just a little bit to start with (too much can cause runny bottom) and gradually increase. Depending on how much is in the mince your butcher sells it may be OK but you'd eventually want to aim for 10%.

The general proportions are 80% meat, 10% offal, 10% bone, bone can be more or less according to the dog's needs. Too much bone can cause constipation and hard, difficult to pass poops. My dog has a bit less than 10% bone but some members' dogs have quite a bit more than 10%. All components (meat/offal/bone) do not need to be fed at each meal, they can be spread over a week, fortnight, or even a month, as long as it balances out over time.

As a guide you feed a daily total of between 2% and 3% of the dog's weight, again dependent on the dog. Some need a fair bit less, some need a bit more.

You can continue to feed kibble, people that do feed both kibble and raw generally tend to feed them in different meals rather than mixed together, sometimes one day raw, one day kibble. But if you think your dog is reacting to something in the kibble maybe you should just feed raw and see how your dog gets on.

I take it whatever allergic reaction your dog is showing you've spoken to your vet about it and he's come to the conclusion it's an allergy to cereals?


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## stusam85

Thanks, yes the vet said that maize was the most probable cause of his reaction and when we switched his food he improved. The latest concern is that when he gets diarrhoea a bland diet with rice doesn't help the situation. I've had a read of the links you suggested. The dogs dinner one has raised a little concern for me ... It says about when you change to raw the dogs go through a detox and steroids (among other things) are flushed out of their system - Wolfie is on steroids for his arthritis due to the fact that despite trying a lot of other options it has got sooo bad that he can't move without them. Now, I'm worried that if I switch him he'll go off his legs again :sad: so maybe I need to start looking at alternative kibble instead.


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## DirtyGertie

stusam85 said:


> Thanks, yes the vet said that maize was the most probable cause of his reaction and when we switched his food he improved. The latest concern is that when he gets diarrhoea a bland diet with rice doesn't help the situation. I've had a read of the links you suggested. The dogs dinner one has raised a little concern for me ... *It says about when you change to raw the dogs go through a detox and steroids (among other things) are flushed out of their system - Wolfie is on steroids for his arthritis due to the fact that despite trying a lot of other options it has got sooo bad that he can't move without them. Now, I'm worried that if I switch him he'll go off his legs again :sad: so maybe I need to start looking at alternative kibble instead*.


I'm afraid I don't know enough about that, it's not something that's cropped up with me. There are some very knowledgeable people on here that may be able to answer that question for you. Perhaps put a specific post up about raw feeding/steroids and hopefully you'll get some replies from people who've been in the same situation.

Could you discuss raw feeding with your vet? See what he says about that? Not all vets are pro-raw feeding.


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## suesdogs15

stusam85 said:


> Thanks, yes the vet said that maize was the most probable cause of his reaction and when we switched his food he improved. The latest concern is that when he gets diarrhoea a bland diet with rice doesn't help the situation. I've had a read of the links you suggested. The dogs dinner one has raised a little concern for me ... It says about when you change to raw the dogs go through a detox and steroids (among other things) are flushed out of their system - Wolfie is on steroids for his arthritis due to the fact that despite trying a lot of other options it has got sooo bad that he can't move without them. Now, I'm worried that if I switch him he'll go off his legs again :sad: so maybe I need to start looking at alternative kibble instead.


One of my dogs had an attack of some sort of allergy and she is raw fed. She had a blood test but it didn't show up any known allergen  . So I am still in the process of trying things to see if I can find out what is causing the problem. She was put on steroids two times and the raw diet had no affect at all on the effectiveness of them so I wouldn't worry


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## Nicky10

stusam85 said:


> Thanks, yes the vet said that maize was the most probable cause of his reaction and when we switched his food he improved. The latest concern is that when he gets diarrhoea a bland diet with rice doesn't help the situation. I've had a read of the links you suggested. The dogs dinner one has raised a little concern for me ... It says about when you change to raw the dogs go through a detox and steroids (among other things) are flushed out of their system - Wolfie is on steroids for his arthritis due to the fact that despite trying a lot of other options it has got sooo bad that he can't move without them. Now, I'm worried that if I switch him he'll go off his legs again :sad: so maybe I need to start looking at alternative kibble instead.


People claim all kinds of magical things about raw, fervour of the convert I suppose , but they're rarely true. Why would a raw diet cause a detox when other diets wouldn't? Unless the dog had been fed a food loaded with additives and sugars in which case it would be more almost breaking an addicition.

Dogs can also be allergic to raw meat, something else the more fanatical claim isn't possible. The immune system can and will flip out over anything it's just a matter of finding out what it is.


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## suesdogs15

Nicky10 said:


> People claim all kinds of magical things about raw, fervour of the convert I suppose , but they're rarely true. Why would a raw diet cause a detox when other diets wouldn't? Unless the dog had been fed a food loaded with additives and sugars in which case it would be more almost breaking an addicition.
> 
> Dogs can also be allergic to raw meat, something else the more fanatical claim isn't possible. The immune system can and will flip out over anything it's just a matter of finding out what it is.


My dog had constant diarrhoea and I put him on a wheat/grain free kibble and it improved it by 50% and I was so impressed with the change. I even taught him to "go" in the road as it was so hard to " pick up ". I put him on raw and the change was amazing almost instant improvement to formed stools. I know it isn't a cure all but well worth the try IMO x


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## Nicky10

suesdogs15 said:


> My dog had constant diarrhoea and I put him on a wheat/grain free kibble and it improved it by 50% and I was so impressed with the change. I even taught him to "go" in the road as it was so hard to " pick up ". I put him on raw and the change was amazing almost instant improvement to formed stools. I know it isn't a cure all but well worth the try IMO x


It is worth a try and it can do good. But when people claim things like dogs can't be allergic cause natural, when many of us as a grassland species are allergic to grass pollen , or dalmatians don't need a modified version of the diet. Because that won't do damage to their kidneys or anything


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## chisler

Hello to one all, I'm new to this forum, but already found it to be a wealth of knowledge thank you. As posted in the welcome section I have recently taken on a lurcher, he is now 14 weeks old, he is a 1st cross Bearded Collie / Greyhound, when I picked him up the breeder gave me a bag of Kibble, that went straight in the bin, I started him on the BARF diet as per Dr Billinghurst teachings, I have had several Lurchers over the years and all have been BARF fed. He is on 3 small meals a day and I've worked it out as the following-
Monday- Chicken wings
Tue- Chicken necks
Wed- Veg with either tinned Tuna or eggs
Thurs- Chicken carcass
Fri- Turkey neck
Sat- Tripe
Sun- Veg and liver

His present weight is 19 Ibs, I have worked it out to feed him 1Ib 6oz a day, this will increase as time goes by, I am weighing him weekly and will adjust accordingly, I want to try and keep his growth rate slow. 
The fruit & veg I have liquidized and have frozen into portions and are as follows- 
Tom's, broccoli, swede, turnips, green beans, peppers, carrots, cabbage, beetroot, garlic, apples(pips removed), bananas, plums.
on the veg days I also add a teaspoon of kelp and a teaspoon of cod-liver oil to the portion. 
My present Raw food supplier only has Chicken on the menu, thanks to this fantastic forum I have found a supplier of Lamb meaty bones which i will be ordering soon when my dog freezer has room in it to give a bit more variety.
May I please ask for any input regarding my feeding schedule.
Once again many thanks for a great community.
Jonathan


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## emma16

Hi. I'm new to the forum and to raw feeding! We have a terrier-cross who is just approaching her first birthday. We have never fed her on tinned dog food but she has been on Wainwrights - both dried and the puppy food. I also homecooked for her. She mostly ate what we did where possible - roast dinner, shepherd's pie (minus the onions!), etc. 
But we are getting a new puppy next week - an Anglo Wulfdog - and they are fed BARF. So we have been switching over Jess, our terrier, in preparation for the new puppy, as it will be much easier feeding them both the same.
I have been doing some research and trying to read up on BARF, but there is a lot of information out there. Mostly I'm worried that the dogs won't be getting all the minerals, etc, they need, and that what we're feeding them will cause issues in the long run.
I have only partially switched Jess over, as I believe the puppy gets dried food in the morning and raw the rest of the time. So she has a small meal of either puppy food or biscuits in the morning and then a raw meal in the evening.
Her switch-over has actually been painless. I was prepared for "rocket-butt" but we had none of that! I haven't been able to find chicken wings anywhere, so I started her on chicken breast and thigh. She was unsure what to do with the bones at first but has the hang of it now. She has also tried - and loved - beef from a joint, beef mince, lamb mince and turkey mince. 
Our butchers sells minced offal for dogs for £2 a slab, which is good. I didn't fancy the thought of chopping up all that. I have struggled to find anywhere that sells chicken carcasses, etc, though. The butchers locally all say they don't have anything like that. 
I have grated up a box of vegetables and frozen it. She has a little bit of that with her evening meal. And today she had sardines and egg for the first time - two minutes and it was gone!
We have actually not found anything she doesn't like yet and she really loves her meals now. The breeder will give advice on feeding when we pick up the puppy but I just want to make sure we're doing it right.
Any advice/reassurance would be appreciated! Sorry for the very long post!


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## DirtyGertie

emma16 said:


> Hi. I'm new to the forum and to raw feeding! We have a terrier-cross who is just approaching her first birthday. We have never fed her on tinned dog food but she has been on Wainwrights - both dried and the puppy food. I also homecooked for her. She mostly ate what we did where possible - roast dinner, shepherd's pie (minus the onions!), etc.
> But we are getting a new puppy next week - an Anglo Wulfdog - and they are fed BARF. So we have been switching over Jess, our terrier, in preparation for the new puppy, as it will be much easier feeding them both the same.
> *I have been doing some research and trying to read up on BARF, but there is a lot of information out there.* Mostly I'm worried that the dogs won't be getting all the minerals, etc, they need, and that what we're feeding them will cause issues in the long run.
> I have only partially switched Jess over, as I believe the puppy gets dried food in the morning and raw the rest of the time. So she has a small meal of either puppy food or biscuits in the morning and then a raw meal in the evening.
> Her switch-over has actually been painless. I was prepared for "rocket-butt" but we had none of that! I haven't been able to find chicken wings anywhere, so I started her on chicken breast and thigh. She was unsure what to do with the bones at first but has the hang of it now. She has also tried - and loved - beef from a joint, beef mince, lamb mince and turkey mince.
> Our butchers sells minced offal for dogs for £2 a slab, which is good. I didn't fancy the thought of chopping up all that. I have struggled to find anywhere that sells chicken carcasses, etc, though. The butchers locally all say they don't have anything like that.
> I have grated up a box of vegetables and frozen it. She has a little bit of that with her evening meal. And today she had sardines and egg for the first time - two minutes and it was gone!
> We have actually not found anything she doesn't like yet and she really loves her meals now. The breeder will give advice on feeding when we pick up the puppy but I just want to make sure we're doing it right.
> Any advice/reassurance would be appreciated! Sorry for the very long post!


Bolded bit - yes, there is an awful lot of information and it's best to read and research as much as possible so that you're confident you understand raw feeding and giving your dogs everything they need .

*Here* is a list of vitamins and minerals in all sorts of meat and fish you can include in a raw diet.

Here's a list of bone percentage in different types of bone which will help when working out the bone content of your dog's diet (scroll down a bit).

Chicken wings you should be able to find in any supermarket, they're usually the 3 section ones. I get mine from Iceland or the Co-op. I've also had them from Asda when I've done an online order Online Food Shopping - ASDA Groceries (if the link works).

The butcher where I live does do chicken carcasses but I usually get mine when I do an order with an online supplier. Manifold Valley Meats do 5kg of chicken carcasses for £5.50. If you are in Raw2Paw's delivery area they charge £5 for between 6 - 8kg. They're probably available from other suppliers too.

Hope that helps.


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## RachRubyx

Not sure if anyone can help but basically my little one has terminal cancer and on steroids to shrink the turmor. We raw fed her at the moment but not sure if should carry on still? At the moment she given nutriment raw food. I've ordered Lily's kitchen wet food just in case.


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## DirtyGertie

RachRubyx said:


> Not sure if anyone can help but basically my little one has terminal cancer and on steroids to shrink the turmor. We raw fed her at the moment but not sure if should carry on still? At the moment she given nutriment raw food. I've ordered Lily's kitchen wet food just in case.


I really don't know how to advise you but just thought I'd mention this.

I know someone who was diagnosed with breast cancer years ago. She is very much into "natural" and refused conventional treatment, i.e. did not have chemo or radiotherapy. Instead she maintained a very healthy lifestyle, only ate organic food, all fresh, prepared herself, lots of fruit and veg, no pre-made or convenience food other than organic tinned if it was needed. She's still here, many years later, still had no conventional treatment and doing very well.

If I was in your shoes I would continue with raw and use the very best I could afford and organic if possible. I wouldn't want to use anything commercial that had any hint of "artificial" or additives of any kind. Of course, there would be no guarantee that it would give you any more time together but you would have the peace of mind that you'd done everything possible.

I wish you all the best, whatever you decide, and hope you still have lots of time together.


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## gypsydal

WOW!!! I've just spent 3 quiet days at work reading this whole thread...and it's an amazing wealth of info and EXACTLY what I'm looking for!
Thanks to everyone who have shared their advice, questions and opinions on here. You've answered pretty much every question I've ever had about RAW feeding and I know that this is way I want to do things going forward.

I've got 2 female adult huskies, and since they were pups I've only fed them on higher grade kibble, but I've never been comfortable doing so because of the 'shady' ingredients you hear about.

About 6 months ago I switched to an all-home-cooked feeding regime which has seems to be working great, improving their behaviour, energy levels and appetite. One of my girls has very sensitive stomach, and only got on with a couple of kibble brands i tried her with...and after about 2 weeks on each she'd get bored and wouldn't eat for 2-3 days.

Since I've been home cooking she refuses to miss a single meal. Also i found it hard to maintain a steady weight on both - either piling on the pounds or losing them quickly. They are both now almost perfect (The youngest is still carrying a bit of excess weight..but it's going slowly)

I've been slowly introducing raw meats, and bones over the months to see how they get on with these as currently I'm bulking up with fruit & veg and some grains, which I realise aren't benefitting them much. Neither have problems with grains but it's pointless feeding them if they aren't getting any nutritious value from them.

Anyway...cutting a long story short, after reading everything on here - pro's and con's!  - I've made up my mind to go entirely RAW.

I'me used to spending more time preparing meals for my dogs than I do for the family :ciappa: so RAW feeding actually looks like it will save me time!!:yesnod:

My big concern is cost....meat isn't cheap!!! There are a couple of good butchers where I live that supply dog meat for a decent price I've not had the courage to ask for any scraps/ extras for cheap price or free....so thats my challenge for the week.

I've got no concerns about them gobbling food, as when I give them bones now as treats they take their time and chew as they're supposed to. So I guess easing them in gently has probably been a benefit for them and me, and they are probably already used to digesting bone. Their poo would certainly suggest so!!

I didn't want to head straight into a poo conversation...but even that's amazing. They used to be sloppy poo-machines. In fact, I've never had dogs that poo-ed so much!!:sosp: Now I'm looking for it in the garden coz there's hardly any! And it's almost a pleasure to pick up!

Anyway....I'm sure I'll have some more questions once I get going properly...so stay tuned.


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## Nicky10

There are suppliers that tend to be cheaper I think. Good luck making the change I hope your dogs continue to do well, I think its particularly recommended for huskies as traditionally they would have only eaten meat.


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## gypsydal

So...our first totally RAW weekend! Was going well until I gave them a raw sprat each after their chicken leg breakfast.

Now there are piles of regurgitated chicken and fish all over the back yard!! :yikes: 

I read here that this often happens with first time raw fish...and they did re-eat it. YEWWWW. I couldn't stick around to watch that!

The piles outside now are the 3rd time up! How many times will this carry on before it's digested enough for them to keep down? Does it improve as they get used to RAW fish? They were really tiny fish so I'm a little bit gutted (...haha geddit??!!) they came back up. Although I"m happy they liked them...even though the youngest one took it off to play with for a little while first :thumbsup:

I don't think it was the chicken legs that caused it, because they've both had chicken carcasses before with no reaction. Although the legs were frozen as I forgot to take them out of the freezer last night. Again, they've never had problems with frozen meat before and it actually made them eat more slowly which i was concerned they wouldn't. 

Am I just expecting too much too soon with total RAW meat AND fish? As I said in my earlier post for the past 6 months they've been eating home-cooked food, interspersed with some RAW meat and bones, so the only difference to this morning's meal was the little raw fish.



:drool:


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## DirtyGertie

gypsydal said:


> So...our first totally RAW weekend! Was going well until I gave them a raw sprat each after their chicken leg breakfast.
> 
> Now there are piles of regurgitated chicken and fish all over the back yard!! :yikes:
> 
> I read here that this often happens with first time raw fish...and they did re-eat it. YEWWWW. I couldn't stick around to watch that!
> 
> The piles outside now are the 3rd time up! How many times will this carry on before it's digested enough for them to keep down? Does it improve as they get used to RAW fish? They were really tiny fish so I'm a little bit gutted (...haha geddit??!!) they came back up. Although I"m happy they liked them...even though the youngest one took it off to play with for a little while first :thumbsup:
> 
> I don't think it was the chicken legs that caused it, because they've both had chicken carcasses before with no reaction. Although the legs were frozen as I forgot to take them out of the freezer last night. Again, they've never had problems with frozen meat before and it actually made them eat more slowly which i was concerned they wouldn't.
> 
> Am I just expecting too much too soon with total RAW meat AND fish? As I said in my earlier post for the past 6 months they've been eating home-cooked food, interspersed with some RAW meat and bones, so the only difference to this morning's meal was the little raw fish.
> 
> :drool:


My dog didn't have any problem with raw fish (thank goodness after reading your experience ). I'd give it another go in a few days and start with just a tiny piece, fingernail size, mixed in with something else and build up from there.


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## gypsydal

LOL it was pretty disgusting!! Just glad it didn't end up on the living room carpet. 
I'll try keeping things simpler for a week or so. It may have been the mix and sudden increase in meat.


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## rottiepointerhouse

Mine had no problems with raw fish either and I started giving it to them quite early on. My GSP won't eat it - any variety and backs away from the bowl if we try to sneak some in so we don't bother trying him anymore. Indie rottie eats them straight down like a seal but she is a greedy pants. Arthur likes to take his time over them and can be a bit fussy with bigger fish like herring or trout but the sprats go down very nicely.


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## RawDogFood

Excellent guide, thank you! :thumbup:

I run a raw feeding website called Raw Dog Food as so many beginners just don't know where to start when thinking about switching to raw.

Dean


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## Zachy

gypsydal said:


> So...our first totally RAW weekend! Was going well until I gave them a raw sprat each after their chicken leg breakfast.
> 
> Now there are piles of regurgitated chicken and fish all over the back yard!! :yikes:
> 
> I read here that this often happens with first time raw fish...and they did re-eat it. YEWWWW. I couldn't stick around to watch that!


We've had about three episodes of vomiting after sprats. I read that it's because they gobble them down whole instead of chewing them, so now I chop them into little pieces and mix them in with the meal. No more vomiting *touches wood*


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## juliem650

I've not been on the forum for a while as my raw feeding regime has been a huge success.
For around six months we fed our three springers tripe and chicken mix from DAF for the majority of meals with chicken wings, fish and beef chucks two or three times a week. After a while though the family ganged up on me and said they were not prepared to feed tripe any more as it was making them feel ill so I switched to chicken/heart and chicken/beef mince, still from DAF
Now though I'm having difficulty keeping their weight down despite feeding the same amount - especially the dog, who is a few kg over what he should be. If I cut down his rations it's obvious he's starving and he starts raiding bins and scavenging anything he can get his hands on.
My question is this please, what are the best raw meats that satisfy hunger but are lowest in calories?

I think also I need to revisit my initial reading of raw diets as I have perhaps become a bit lazy and complacent and am not offering the variety I was at the beginning.
Thanks very much


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## Zachy

juliem650 said:


> I've not been on the forum for a while as my raw feeding regime has been a huge success.
> For around six months we fed our three springers tripe and chicken mix from DAF for the majority of meals with chicken wings, fish and beef chucks two or three times a week. After a while though the family ganged up on me and said they were not prepared to feed tripe any more as it was making them feel ill so I switched to chicken/heart and chicken/beef mince, still from DAF
> Now though I'm having difficulty keeping their weight down despite feeding the same amount - especially the dog, who is a few kg over what he should be. If I cut down his rations it's obvious he's starving and he starts raiding bins and scavenging anything he can get his hands on.
> My question is this please, what are the best raw meats that satisfy hunger but are lowest in calories?
> 
> I think also I need to revisit my initial reading of raw diets as I have perhaps become a bit lazy and complacent and am not offering the variety I was at the beginning.
> Thanks very much


If he'll eat raw carrots you could try filling him up with those after/mixed in with his meal.


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## Lorii

Hi there,i am new to your site,and am very interested in raw feeding,do you have any idea about suppliers of raw meals in costa blanca spain? Thanks


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## EdwardNorfolk

I have a 12 week old Norfolk Terrier who I would like to put onto a raw food diet. There is a huge amount of information on this thread which is really interesting, and a tad overwhelming! Do you have any specific information on feeding puppies please? Edward is currently on NatureDiet Puppy and Junior (which he came with at 8 weeks) in the morning with James Wellbeloved puppy biscuits and Natures:Menu Puppy complete + a chicken wing in the evening. He loves his evening meal and picks at the morning food.


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## DirtyGertie

EdwardNorfolk said:


> I have a 12 week old Norfolk Terrier who I would like to put onto a raw food diet. There is a huge amount of information on this thread which is really interesting, and a tad overwhelming! Do you have any specific information on feeding puppies please? Edward is currently on NatureDiet Puppy and Junior (which he came with at 8 weeks) in the morning with James Wellbeloved puppy biscuits and Natures:Menu Puppy complete + a chicken wing in the evening. He loves his evening meal and picks at the morning food.


I haven't fed a very young puppy raw, mine was nearer a year old. Have a look at this site, there's some specific information about puppies Feeding puppies - The Dog's Dinner - by Ann Ridyard.


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## EdwardNorfolk

Thank you very much indeed. The linked site is very helpful. I shall do some maths, speak to my local butcher and wean Edward off the commercial stuff. Have to say, the NatureDiet smells and looks really nice!


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## HealthyPetsScotland

Hello dear pet owners

I would like to highlight our startup which will be soon opened in Edinburgh and will serve Edinburgh area with Healthy raw food.
We are in stage when we introducing our brand and we try to make you aware about us, and about our work.

At the moment we starting up facebook page where we will introduce our products range and answer your questions.

Becaouse we love them

Hope to see you there!

Andrea & Tomas


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## Shaunny

Could really do with some help getting a shopping list up together and where will be best for me to order. I have no idea where to start eve though I have read so much information. I put a new thread up about being new and what I already do but I want to introduce bone but don't know where to start ie what and how much help lol


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## Shaunny

Without trawling trough this thread could anyone help me please

My dogs have been on the raw diet now for close to 6 weeks. They love it and out staffys coat is so shiny it unreal. 

The only issue I seem to have is their poo. It's seems to be hard and they look like they may be straining. Is their something I'm giving them that's too much or too little? 

They have mince I make up which has 4kg of chicken mince, 2kg of beef mince, 400g of offel half liver and the rest kidney and heart. 

I then mix in blended veg of broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, garlic, carrot, yoghurt, 4 eggs

They then have a tsp of alfalfa/sea kelp mix 50/50 with each feed. 

Every other or even 3nd day they have a chicken carcus or lamb rib bones. When they have the bones their poo is whiter than normal


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## DirtyGertie

Hard poos/white poos generally mean too much bone content in the diet. The norm is approx 10% but some dogs can't cope with that much, others can cope with much more. I have to lower my dog's bone content and make sure that on bone days she gets plenty of liver, on bone days her second meal contains half liver. That's what work for her.

Is the mince you use from your butcher or from a raw dog food supplier? If from a raw dog food supplier it will contain bone and will need to be taken into account.

I'd lower the bone content for now and see how it goes, just experiment a bit and see what suits your dogs.

Also, heart is not offal, it's considered muscle meat. So add heart into the percentage of muscle meat and rejig the offal content to 5% liver and 5% kidney.


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## icarepet

I want to make my own raw food rather than buying from the supplier but I have no idea where to start such as recipe.

How people prepare their raw food diet for their dog(s)? What recipe do you put in? Where can I get fish oil (as they said this is good for anti-inflammation and good for skin). How much roughly do you spend in a week/month supply.

How much to feed her, I think Ellie is roughly around 5.x kg.

Only recipe I have at the moment are:
Chicken, beef liver, carrots, broccoli. But will get more once I have the rough idea of what I should get.


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## DirtyGertie

icarepet said:


> I want to make my own raw food rather than buying from the supplier but I have no idea where to start such as recipe.
> 
> How people prepare their raw food diet for their dog(s)? What recipe do you put in? Where can I get fish oil (as they said this is good for anti-inflammation and good for skin). How much roughly do you spend in a week/month supply.
> 
> How much to feed her, I think Ellie is roughly around 5.x kg.
> 
> Only recipe I have at the moment are:
> Chicken, beef liver, carrots, broccoli. But will get more once I have the rough idea of what I should get.


Have you read any of this thread starting from the beginning?

Have you done any other research into raw feeding?

Don't start feeding raw until you have, you really need to understand what it's about and be comfortable with what you are doing.

This is another website worth reading http://dogsdinner2.webs.com/quickstartguide.htm

You don't need a "recipe" for raw food. You dog will need approximately 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% offal (half liver and half other offal such as kidney), tweaked for your dog's own needs. Vegetables and fruit aren't essential although some people do include it. I give them occasionally.

Some commercial raw food suppliers have introduced what they term as "complete" foods which include vegetables, fruit, etc. It doesn't really make them any more complete than just meat/bone/offal.

I have a dog weighing 5.5kg. She gets various chunks such as turkey, pork, tripe, salmon, white fish, heart, liver, kidney. She used to get chicken too but has developed a sensitivity to raw chicken although she can tolerate it cooked so gets it occasionally that way. Because those are the only chunks I can get easily then for variety I add some commercially produced minces such as duck, venison, rabbit. Then to make up her bone part of the diet, after taking into account the bone in the minces, she gets lamb ribs and turkey neck (I can't give raw chicken carcass or neck).

I don't supplement with anything, she's a youngish, fit, healthy dog and all the vitamins and minerals she needs are catered for in the diet, plus she has oily fish (raw salmon, occasionally tinned sardines or pilchards or mackerel) regularly.

Depending on what she has, including courier costs from suppliers, a meal can cost between 25p and 50p max, she has two meals a day. When she could eat chicken it was cheaper as I could pick up chicken wings reduced in the supermarket and a meal of those could be as little as 10p.


----------



## Shaunny

Ok so the Staffie swallowed a piece of lamb bone that was a little bit big tonight. Couldn't get her breath for a few seconds which felt like ages. Is there any tips to stop this happening or do you just take it was when it gets too small? It was the spine bit off the rib bone so it was a little bigger than normal and harder to chew up. 

The frenchie does the same and tries to swallow too big a piece and sI cks it back up. 

Can you smash it with a hammer to break it into pieces or is that more dangerous? 

Cheers guys ;-)


----------



## catpud

I wouldn't smash it because in my mind that just encourages gulping - if they don't have to chew they won't.

You can hold the bone while they eat it - this makes sure that they can only crunch off small pieces, give bones larger than their head and take it away when you feel they have eaten enough (for example, if they have a whole chicken carcass, for a small dog, they have to grind it away slowly as they can't fit the whole thing in their mouth), or as a last resort you can feed ground bone - I say as a last resort because it will always be of benefit for them to have the extra mental stimulation that a bone brings, along with the dental benefits wherever possible.


----------



## Shaunny

Yeah that's what I was worried about, more of a chance of small pieces if you smash it. 

Roxy the staffy is fine with caucuses because they are so much softer than the lamb bone. She is even better with the rib part bad it's smaller and the spine part has knobbly parts that are harder to chew. 

The reason for the bones is mainly the dental benefits as they have bone in their mince and only have the bones a few to 3 days a week


----------



## icarepet

does anyone add Spirulina or kelp or both? Maybe both is too much but what's the difference though, I know that they're both sea weeds types and some commercial foods add Spirulina in their food. I found spirulina in H&B and kelp (kelp in tablet form), so wondering how much you should be putting in their food?


----------



## DirtyGertie

icarepet said:


> does anyone add Spirulina or kelp or both? Maybe both is too much but what's the difference though, I know that they're both sea weeds types and some commercial foods add Spirulina in their food. I found spirulina in H&B and kelp (kelp in tablet form), so wondering how much you should be putting in their food?


I don't add any supplements. If Poppy developed a need for any or I thought there was something missing from her diet then I would. She is fed fully raw with plenty of variety which gives her all the vitamins and minerals she needs at the moment. Also kelp contains iodine and too much can mess around with the thyroid so be careful when thinking of adding any supplements.


----------



## icarepet

DirtyGertie said:


> I don't add any supplements. If Poppy developed a need for any or I thought there was something missing from her diet then I would. She is fed fully raw with plenty of variety which gives her all the vitamins and minerals she needs at the moment. Also kelp contains iodine and too much can mess around with the thyroid so be careful when thinking of adding any supplements.


I see, what do you give to your little one?


----------



## DirtyGertie

icarepet said:


> I see, what do you give to your little one?


I feed her a BARF diet. Over a month she'll get chunks of turkey, pork, tripe, heart, liver, kidney, salmon, white fish, tinned sardines and mackerel, lamb ribs, turkey necks, plus a couple of minces or nuggets like rabbit, duck, venison. She also gets some blended veg, some fruit occasionally and some live natural yogurt.


----------



## icarepet

DirtyGertie said:


> I feed her a BARF diet. Over a month she'll get chunks of turkey, pork, tripe, heart, liver, kidney, salmon, white fish, tinned sardines and mackerel, lamb ribs, turkey necks, plus a couple of minces or nuggets like rabbit, duck, venison. She also gets some blended veg, some fruit occasionally and some live natural yogurt.


I see. I think I've mentioned that I started her with just half of the chicken wing before and still having it every now and then. So decided to make something for her started with slowly boiled chicken slightly raw then some veggies, then now made another meal which is completely raw meat (Turkey mince) and she seems doing fine so far.

But I'm a little confuse about the amount of feeding, not exactly sure how much she weigh lets just say she weighs 7kg and she should be getting at least 2% of its expected full grown weight, right? so roughly she should be having 70g per meal? She's now only eating 2x a day but seems like she's looking for more but of course I don't want to give her too much.


----------



## DirtyGertie

icarepet said:


> I see. I think I've mentioned that I started her with just half of the chicken wing before and still having it every now and then. So decided to make something for her started with slowly boiled chicken slightly raw then some veggies, then now made another meal which is completely raw meat (Turkey mince) and she seems doing fine so far.
> 
> But I'm a little confuse about the amount of feeding, not exactly sure how much she weigh lets just say she weighs 7kg and she should be getting at least 2% of its expected full grown weight, right? so roughly she should be having 70g per meal? She's now only eating 2x a day but seems like she's looking for more but of course I don't want to give her too much.


I'm not sure about working out how much a puppy needs but if what you say is right then it's 140g per day divided by the number of meals. Either get her weighed at the vets or if you have bathroom scales then weigh yourself holding her then weigh yourself on your own, take one from the other and you'll know how much she weighs. Once you've got that then double check how to work out how much a pup should get. That will be a guide, you'll have to keep an eye on her and if she's not gaining weight at the rate you'd expect for a pup you'll have to adjust accordingly.

That is for raw feeding. I don't know if there's any difference with home cooked food.


----------



## icarepet

DirtyGertie said:


> I'm not sure about working out how much a puppy needs but if what you say is right then it's 140g per day divided by the number of meals. Either get her weighed at the vets or if you have bathroom scales then weigh yourself holding her then weigh yourself on your own, take one from the other and you'll know how much she weighs. Once you've got that then double check how to work out how much a pup should get. That will be a guide, you'll have to keep an eye on her and if she's not gaining weight at the rate you'd expect for a pup you'll have to adjust accordingly.
> 
> That is for raw feeding. I don't know if there's any difference with home cooked food.


Yeah sorry I for confusion I think, the food I gave when I started *cooked* one and raw are the same weigh. Well unless she's being under fed I remember talking to Nutriment people about their food and said that 5kg should get 250g of their puppy food per day then Naturesmenu says 300g for 26wks of age.


----------



## DirtyGertie

icarepet said:


> Yeah sorry I for confusion I think, the food I gave when I started *cooked* one and raw are the same weigh. Well unless she's being under fed I remember talking to Nutriment people about their food and said that 5kg should get 250g of their puppy food per day then Naturesmenu says 300g for 26wks of age.


Have a look at this site and see what she says about feeding puppies http://dogsdinner2.m.webs.com/site/...=1&fw_sig_locale=en-US&fb_sig_network=fw#2222 (hope that works), has illustrations on how a dog/pup should look too.


----------



## Myfi&Ethel

Increased burn marks in lawn:

I switched to a raw diet 3 weeks ago. They have a balance of flesh meat, bone and offal each day according to the ratio of 80:15: 10. I initially put in pureed veg, but research said it was not needed. However the amount of grass they wanted to eat really increased, so I have reintroduced veg in the last 2 days (they were only without it for a 7 days). 

I have noticed that they are making burn marks in the lawn again when urinating ... Is their any link between the Raw diet and this? I ask not beause I want a perfect lawn but because I wonder if there is something they are lacking or having too much of?

Thanks


----------



## DirtyGertie

Myfi&Ethel said:


> Increased burn marks in lawn:
> 
> I switched to a raw diet 3 weeks ago. They have a balance of flesh meat, bone and offal each day according to the ratio of 80:15: 10. I initially put in pureed veg, but research said it was not needed. However the amount of grass they wanted to eat really increased, so I have reintroduced veg in the last 2 days (they were only without it for a 7 days).
> 
> I have noticed that they are making burn marks in the lawn again when urinating ... Is their any link between the Raw diet and this? I ask not beause I want a perfect lawn but because I wonder if there is something they are lacking or having too much of?
> 
> Thanks


The usual ratio is 80:10:10 with adjustments where necessary, I'm a bit puzzled by your 80:15:10. My dog can't manage on 10% bone so I lower that a bit. Also it doesn't have to be 80:10:10 every day, as long as your dog gets roughly the correct ratio within a specified time you can give it, say, a bone meal every few days, an offal meal every few days. I work mine out over a month. Veg isn't a necessity, I tend to give it occasionally and my dog loves it. She does, however, like to snack on grass particularly at this time of year when there's new growth. It's not because she needs it, she just likes it. Maybe your dogs like the sweet new grass too .

As far as I am aware there is no link between a raw diet and burn marks on the lawn. Dog's urine will always burn a lawn, bitches in particular as they tend to leave a puddle on the lawn whereas a dog generally sprays up a tree or plant (or lampost). If you immediately water the patch where they've urinated it should dilute it and lessen the burn.


----------



## Myfi&Ethel

DirtyGertie said:


> The usual ratio is 80:10:10 with adjustments where necessary, I'm a bit puzzled by your 80:15:10. My dog can't manage on 10% bone so I lower that a bit. Also it doesn't have to be 80:10:10 every day, as long as your dog gets roughly the correct ratio within a specified time you can give it, say, a bone meal every few days, an offal meal every few days. I work mine out over a month. Veg isn't a necessity, I tend to give it occasionally and my dog loves it. She does, however, like to snack on grass particularly at this time of year when there's new growth. It's not because she needs it, she just likes it. Maybe your dogs like the sweet new grass too .
> 
> As far as I am aware there is no link between a raw diet and burn marks on the lawn. Dog's urine will always burn a lawn, bitches in particular as they tend to leave a puddle on the lawn whereas a dog generally sprays up a tree or plant (or lampost). If you immediately water the patch where they've urinated it should dilute it and lessen the burn.


Hi Dirty Girtie,

Thank you very much for you quick response. I got confused as I was giving the information and read my pad wrong. It is 80:10:10. Incidentally though, you say your dog can't manage 10% bone and I am curious what you mean by that or how you tell? Is it because she/he stools are hard and not as easy to pass? They are both spayed bitches and they seemed to have stopped burning the lawn. I was just worried there was a connection between the food. I like my garden, but it is not the end of the world . I will continue to chase them around the lawn  They do like their veg as well and the grass snacking has decreased, but I never thought of it being a taste preference when they grazed.

Some more questions ... I read you give your dog probiotic yogurt. I've read different views on this and I wondered what your thoughts are on it? A couple of people have recommended Honeywell's books, but when I researched they were not on the reading lists I found. Do you think there are better books and experts?

I weigh out the 80:10:10 ratio in bags in advance ... saves me fretting at this early stage. Perhaps a schedule over a month may be a future plan.


----------



## DirtyGertie

Myfi&Ethel said:


> Hi Dirty Girtie,
> 
> Thank you very much for you quick response. I got confused as I was giving the information and read my pad wrong. It is 80:10:10. Incidentally though, you say your dog can't manage 10% bone and I am curious what you mean by that or how you tell? Is it because she/he stools are hard and not as easy to pass? They are both spayed bitches and they seemed to have stopped burning the lawn. I was just worried there was a connection between the food. I like my garden, but it is not the end of the world . I will continue to chase them around the lawn  They do like their veg as well and the grass snacking has decreased, but I never thought of it being a taste preference when they grazed.
> 
> If she has too much bone then it's exactly as you say. She gets very hard stools, has difficulty passing them, also they can be very crumbly and can turn white very quickly if not cleared up straight away.
> 
> I think some dogs do just like to munch on grass, I imagine new growth at this time of year is a delicacy for them and a bit of a treat (I prefer chocolate myself )
> 
> Some more questions ... I read you give your dog probiotic yogurt. I've read different views on this and I wondered what your thoughts are on it? A couple of people have recommended Honeywell's books, but when I researched they were not on the reading lists I found. Do you think there are better books and experts?
> 
> I give her Yeo Valley natural yogurt occasionally. Sometimes as an incentive to eat something she's not as keen on, e.g. she's a bit picky with one of the minces but if I stir in a bit of yogurt she'll happily eat it. If I'm having yogurt on my muesli I pop a bit on her breakfast 'cos she looks longingly at me as if to say she wants some too . If I'm having a bowl of fruit I'll put a few chunks in a bowl for her and put a bit of yogurt with that. I only give the natural yogurt not the flavoured ones. I don't particularly use it for it's probiotic effect. If she needed probiotics then I'd get a probiotic supplement.
> 
> I can't really recommend any books. I did a lot of research on line, asked questions on here, etc. One site I liked is *The Dog's Dinner* and there is also a book. A site with lots of information and articles plus book reviews is *here.*
> 
> I weigh out the 80:10:10 ratio in bags in advance ... saves me fretting at this early stage. Perhaps a schedule over a month may be a future plan.
> 
> When you're feeling more confident (it took me a while as i started just on minces and chicken wings) you'll find it a lot easier. What works best for me is to work out her needs for 10 days and within that 10 days she'll have a couple of bone meals, a few meals including liver or kidney, a few meals which are mince or nuggets and a few meals which are purely meat or fish chunks. I then repeat it x 3 and that gives me her balanced diet for the month. She has liver on the days she has bone, kidney tends to be on the days she has mince or nuggests with some bone content. That then tends to keep her stools small, firm and doesn't cause her any discomfort to pass. Some people just do everything by eye and experience and just dip into their freezer. It's just what works for the individual.


Click on the Quote box above - My responses in red . Sorry, couldn't find any other way of quoting your post in separate sections.


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## Shaunny

Hey guys,

So everything has been going great and the dogs love their raw diet. However, Bruce the French bulldog has developed a slight problem where he keeps being sick. I haven't seen it but the misses said it has what looks like bits of bone in it. Nothing has changed much but they haven't had much bone for nearly 3 weeks because the meals have it in the mince. I'm working on a monthly plan for them so the mince is the easy option at the moment.

I upped the offel slightly because their stools were a tad bit hard but the increase mad I big difference (not too hard and not too soft)

That's the only change. Could it be because they havent had the bone pieces and there is nothing to help move what's in his stomach? I haven't a clue.......


----------



## AmyBeth

Hi all

Looking for some advice from some experienced people in regards to feeding Raw. My 6 year old Jack-Chi has just been diagnosed with pancreatitis and the vets have put her onto a special veterinary diet. I've been doing some research on Raw Feeding and it looks like this will be good for her pancreatitis. Just wanted to know if there are things she shouldn't have I.e. fatty bones or foods. If anyone could give me some advice on this I would really appreciate it. She is my baby and I want to do anything I can to help her. Thank you


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

AmyBeth said:


> Hi all
> 
> Looking for some advice from some experienced people in regards to feeding Raw. My 6 year old Jack-Chi has just been diagnosed with pancreatitis and the vets have put her onto a special veterinary diet. I've been doing some research on Raw Feeding and it looks like this will be good for her pancreatitis. Just wanted to know if there are things she shouldn't have I.e. fatty bones or foods. If anyone could give me some advice on this I would really appreciate it. She is my baby and I want to do anything I can to help her. Thank you


Hi - welcome to PF - sorry I don't have any experience of raw feeding a dog with pancreatitis but wondered if this blog might be of interest/help.

http://dogsdinner2.webs.com/apps/blog/


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## AmyBeth

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Hi - welcome to PF - sorry I don't have any experience of raw feeding a dog with pancreatitis but wondered if this blog might be of interest/help.
> 
> http://dogsdinner2.webs.com/apps/blog/


Thank you I'll have a look


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## DecantPet

There is somewhere I read that raw food helps to improve oral health of the dog. His teeth grow strong and clean, which keeps harmful oral bacteria at bay. It is also easy to prevent your dog from allergies.


----------



## georgieporgie

Hi.
We're due to get an 8 week male golden retriever in a couple of weeks time. I want to feed him raw. 
He's currently being fed kibble by the breeders and will continue to do so before we pick him up. How do I go about starting him on raw when he arrives home?
I want to start him straight away but should I take it slow like with an adult dog (ie start with chicken then slowly introduce other meats then offal etc)?

I'm also worried about him choking on bones. Obviously he's a puppy at the moment, so would chicken wings etc be OK? Eventually he'll be a large dog so will swap to bigger bones?

In regards to how much I feed him, I've read it's 2% of a fully grown adults ideal weight, which in a male golden retriever is around 32kg.
This means pup would need to be fed around 640g of raw food a day, does this sound about right? Split up in to 3-4 separate intervals until he's adult?

Sorry if I sound a bit clueless/someone has asked these things, I've never had a puppy before or fed raw before so trying to get to grips with it!


----------



## Ridge_come_back

Hello all, I've just posted a thread asking for advice but then noticed this raw feeding FAQ thread which may have a better audience.

Anyway, the thread is here: http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/frozen-mince-delivered-defrosted.402721/

Any advice would be great. Thanks!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

georgieporgie said:


> Hi.
> We're due to get an 8 week male golden retriever in a couple of weeks time. I want to feed him raw.
> He's currently being fed kibble by the breeders and will continue to do so before we pick him up. How do I go about starting him on raw when he arrives home?
> I want to start him straight away but should I take it slow like with an adult dog (ie start with chicken then slowly introduce other meats then offal etc)?
> 
> I'm also worried about him choking on bones. Obviously he's a puppy at the moment, so would chicken wings etc be OK? Eventually he'll be a large dog so will swap to bigger bones?
> 
> In regards to how much I feed him, I've read it's 2% of a fully grown adults ideal weight, which in a male golden retriever is around 32kg.
> This means pup would need to be fed around 640g of raw food a day, does this sound about right? Split up in to 3-4 separate intervals until he's adult?
> 
> Sorry if I sound a bit clueless/someone has asked these things, I've never had a puppy before or fed raw before so trying to get to grips with it!


Sorry I haven't got any experience of raw feeding a puppy but found this which you might find useful

http://dogsdinner2.webs.com/rawweaninglitterdiary.htm

sure you have probably already seen this

http://www.naturalinstinct.com/products/Puppy

You might get more response if you start a separate thread about this.


----------



## georgieporgie

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Sorry I haven't got any experience of raw feeding a puppy but found this which you might find useful
> 
> http://dogsdinner2.webs.com/rawweaninglitterdiary.htm
> 
> sure you have probably already seen this
> 
> http://www.naturalinstinct.com/products/Puppy
> 
> You might get more response if you start a separate thread about this.


Hi

Thanks for the links!
I'll post as a separate thread too.


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## Petcareshoppe

Thanks for sharing informative information.


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## Stereo

Hi all, first post here. I have labs and also raise a lot of rare breed poultry. The cockerels of these breeds are delicious and we raise them all to maturity rather than culling at hatch as many do. Some we process fully and roast but many times it's just worth the time for the amount of meat you get back so I'll skin them, take off the legs and breast meat and am then left with the rest of the carcass, guts still in. This is usually disposed off and that seems a shame. I was wondering if I could feed the rest to my dogs. What about the guts? Can they eat it all? Is it recommended / possible to grind it all up first or is this just too messy? Thanks.


----------



## Meezey

Stereo said:


> Hi all, first post here. I have labs and also raise a lot of rare breed poultry. The cockerels of these breeds are delicious and we raise them all to maturity rather than culling at hatch as many do. Some we process fully and roast but many times it's just worth the time for the amount of meat you get back so I'll skin them, take off the legs and breast meat and am then left with the rest of the carcass, guts still in. This is usually disposed off and that seems a shame. I was wondering if I could feed the rest to my dogs. What about the guts? Can they eat it all? Is it recommended / possible to grind it all up first or is this just too messy? Thanks.


As a long as its not cooked feed them it all, I personally wouldn't grind them, are they used to any raw meat in their diet?


----------



## Stereo

No, it's probably not relevant this year as they are 16 tomorrow (112 I think) which is amazing for labs and both are healthy in terms of hips but a bit doddery / blind /deaf etc. So I don't want to change to much at their age. Plus I've already processed this year's birds. As they are 16 I'm thinking in all likely hood we'll be getting young dogs at some point soon, sad though that thought is. But being realistic......

So it will be next years birds I'm thinking off. Could even freeze the leftover bits I suppose if our girls are still with us. I also have a neighbour who feeds raw so he might take them. I was just really wondering about the 'waste' inside the bird although my labs have probably eaten half a ton of sheep doings in their lives.


----------



## Meezey

Stereo said:


> No, it's probably not relevant this year as they are 16 tomorrow (112 I think) which is amazing for labs and both are healthy in terms of hips but a bit doddery / blind /deaf etc. So I don't want to change to much at their age. Plus I've already processed this year's birds. As they are 16 I'm thinking in all likely hood we'll be getting young dogs at some point soon, sad though that thought is. But being realistic......
> 
> So it will be next years birds I'm thinking off. Could even freeze the leftover bits I suppose if our girls are still with us. I also have a neighbour who feeds raw so he might take them. I was just really wondering about the 'waste' inside the bird although my labs have probably eaten half a ton of sheep doings in their lives.


I feed partridges when in season and the dogs eat everything! Some people feed road kill too and prey model!

What a fantastic age  I certainly wouldn't let the carcasses go to waste, I'd be more than happy to be your neighbour and take them off you lol I'd personally feed them all, or you can gut them and just feed the carcasses!


----------



## Stereo

Another consideration. Do you have a feeding 'area' so to speak? Not sure I'm keen on them scoffing a whole carcass on the kitchen floor even though it's stone and easy to clean.


----------



## Meezey

Stereo said:


> Another consideration. Do you have a feeding 'area' so to speak? Not sure I'm keen on them scoffing a whole carcass on the kitchen floor even though it's stone and easy to clean.


I normally feed 2 of ours in their crates, the bitch goes outside to eat hers! I then just mop the floor of their crates? If it's really messy both Rottweilers go in the garden with it neither resource guard food so they are safe, Frenchie doesn't eat out as he would try and steal theirs


----------



## Stereo

Cheers, thanks for the advice. Food for thought so to speak.


----------



## Meezey

Stereo said:


> Cheers, thanks for the advice. Food for thought so to speak.


You are welcome. Happy Birthday to your dogs for tomorrow and I hope they are around to try the carcasses


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## Stereo

If they have any teeth left by then.


----------



## Lazhar

A great article with a handful of *dog breeders sharing their own opinion about natural superfoods*... Super interesting read!


----------



## _simon_

Could someone spare some time to help me please?

Our male Labrador is already being fed a RAW diet, however we're currently using Natures Menu (frozen) which although is in convenient pre-worked out packets is costing us £70 a month and looking at prices we think we can do this cheaper ourselves but we need some help working out what we should buy.

I can't find where I wrote his last weight down but the vet was happy and I'm sure he was pushing 30KG. He's just over 3 years old now. He currently eats 900g a day of the Natures Menu raw frozen food. He has the one with veg in but from what I've read this may be more of a filler than giving him any nutrition that he needs so we're happy to cut the veg out. He gets a raw duck neck now and again, dried bones he can chew on throughout the day and a few treats like pork bites or jerky. We usually buy a months worth in one go.

I've searched online and we do have a fairly local raw food supplier so it would be ideal if we could just buy from them. https://landywoods.co.uk/product-category/fresh-frozen-meats/

Could someone pretty please help us by looking at the meats that they sell and tell us what we should be looking at to buy? We don't know how much variety to give or what to give him each day. We've got a few weeks supply of Natures Menu left, after that if it does work out cheaper then we'd like to make the switch.

We'd be eternally grateful for any help!


----------



## Mum2Heidi

Not exactly what you are after but I use the Natures Menu all meat blocks. The amount of veg in their complete range upset my dog's tummy.
The blocks are 400g so work out a bit cheaper plus you are paying for meat and not veg. I work on 80% muscle meat, 10% bone and 10% offal. I buy 4 varieties. Beef, Tripe, Rabbit and Chicken, Lamb and Chicken. Add 5% liver and 5% kidney to each meal. It's easier as she's a small dog. Some give weekly offal meals. The blocks with chicken contain 10% bone and on bone free days, I give her a chicken wing which provides to compensate. She has carrot everyday, bits of apple and occasional veg. 
I have done a few costings and for me this works out as cheap as ordering and paying delivery. With a bigger dog, you would be able to order in bulk and take advantage of free delivery.

Hopefully someone who does full DIY will comment soon and be more helpful to you


----------



## DirtyGertie

_simon_ said:


> Could someone spare some time to help me please?
> 
> Our male Labrador is already being fed a RAW diet, however we're currently using Natures Menu (frozen) which although is in convenient pre-worked out packets is costing us £70 a month and looking at prices we think we can do this cheaper ourselves but we need some help working out what we should buy.
> 
> I can't find where I wrote his last weight down but the vet was happy and I'm sure he was pushing 30KG. He's just over 3 years old now. He currently eats 900g a day of the Natures Menu raw frozen food. He has the one with veg in but from what I've read this may be more of a filler than giving him any nutrition that he needs so we're happy to cut the veg out. He gets a raw duck neck now and again, dried bones he can chew on throughout the day and a few treats like pork bites or jerky. We usually buy a months worth in one go.
> 
> I've searched online and we do have a fairly local raw food supplier so it would be ideal if we could just buy from them. https://landywoods.co.uk/product-category/fresh-frozen-meats/
> 
> Could someone pretty please help us by looking at the meats that they sell and tell us what we should be looking at to buy? We don't know how much variety to give or what to give him each day. We've got a few weeks supply of Natures Menu left, after that if it does work out cheaper then we'd like to make the switch.
> 
> We'd be eternally grateful for any help!
> 
> View attachment 246771


I have done complete DIY but I now add a couple of minces for variety where I can't get a particular protein easily.

You probably already know that you feed approx 2% - 3% of dog's weight, but adjust depending on whether your dog loses or puts on weight. My dog is fairly stable on a bit less than 3%. As Mum2Heidi says, 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% offal (half liver, half other offal). It doesn't have to be exact proportions at each meal, offal can be given once a week, once a fortnight, as a full meal, whatever suits your dog. Also, that's a guide, adjust to suit your dog. My dog can't have anywhere near the 10% bone as she gets very hard to pass poops so I give her a lesser amount of bone but compensate for the calcium by giving a supplement that has calcium in it. I sometimes make up a blended veggie mix and add that too.

Variety can be as much as you want, different meats and fish provide different vitamins and minerals. My dog gets turkey, green tripe, pork, heart, salmon, white fish, liver, kidney (all chunks), mackerel (whole when I'm lucky enough to be given it), tinned sardines, pilchards and mackerel. The minces I get are duck, rabbit and venison as I can't get them easily or at a reasonable price. She can't have chicken as she's sensitive to it. So it's up to you how much variety you wish to give. I'm sure there are other proteins available which I don't give.


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## Woodie73

Hi, I'm new to the site, but really need your advice. I am a border collie, 6 years old. He is semi-active, I've walks/runs a few miles a day, everyday. He is seriously overweight, and over the years we have tried everything; diet, hydrotherapy, and now a couple of months ago we switched to raw. He loves the new diet, but is still gaining weight!

He is 38.9 kg! We feed him approx 500-600g per day, split into 2 meals I've 300-350g morning, and 200-250g at supper time. 

We feed him a mixture of chicken thighs and chicken legs, cubed steak, pork ribs, minced beef, heart, and the occasional kidney and liver (in moderation). He also gets a bowl of milk once/twice a week. 

He doesn't get much titbits, but he is a moocher, so he does get the odd corner of biscuit, but not everyday, and not enough to make him the size he is. The vet is no help, just trying to put him back on a low fat kibble (which we tried before, unsuccessfully), and nagging at us to get his weight down, like we haven't tried!! I asked for his thyroid to be tested, but the blood tress results came back as normal.

Please, what are we doing wrong? The vet wants to cut his food again, but he is already bordering on hungry, and is on loxicom for joint pain. I really need all the advice I can get, I've read all the forum comments, followed all the links, and read a couple of books, but I must be getting something wrong or he'd be losing weight by now.

All comments very welcome and gratefully received. Thanks Woodie73


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## rottiepointerhouse

Hi Woodie73 and welcome to the forum.

He does sound like he is getting quite a bit of food. My rottie bitch weighs 40 kg (she could do with losing a couple too). She only gets 100g of mince in the morning with some veggies added for bulk and another 100g in the evening which includes some heart chunks and offal. She also gets a chicken carcass every few days (I reduce the meat on that day) or 100g of lamb ribs. Her total for the day is 300-350g. She is walked once a day for 60-90 minutes and does a lot of chasing around with my pointers and loves swimming but it is a constant battle to keep her weight down.


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## Goblin

Woodie73 said:


> We feed him a mixture of chicken thighs and chicken legs, cubed steak, pork ribs, minced beef, heart, and the occasional kidney and liver (in moderation). He also gets a bowl of milk once/twice a week.


Not a simple answer as you already know. Something to consider is if the chicken thighs and legs have skin, remove it. You can try to bulk up meals with vegetables instead of increasing meat. You may also want to try making the dog work for food more, diverting attention from stomach. Frozen Kongs are good for this. At the end though, if you cannot get weight off, it is better to try other things, even low fat kibble. There are plenty on the market and some I would consider using personally if needed.


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## Smiler33

Hi, I wonder if I can pick your brains please. I have a lovely 19 months Whippet called Whiz and he is thriving - we have a fun time together out walking, have started Agility twice a week and we love our most favourite thing which is snuggling on the sofa. I also have an almost 11 year old JRT 'Pip' who has skin allergies and IBS.

I feed Millies Wolfheart and Whiz is doing well on it. I imagine he's probably 16kg; haven't weighed him but I'd say he's put a bit of weight on since being castrated. Pip is around 7.5kg but has slowed down a lot over the last few months; she has a daily steroid to help with the IBS and she also has a limp in her front right leg so can't walk as far as she used to but is happy. To me though the food looks boring - I have been wondering about going down the natural raw food diet and feeding something like Natures Menu/Nutriment and bones until I get confident enough to follow a 'proper' Barf diet.

Am I being stupid by putting human emotions on this? Part of me is saying if it isn't broke don't try to fix it but another part is saying the dogs would enjoy mince/bones like dogs used to have and are bred to have?

I hope you don't think I'm asking a daft question but would just appreciate your advice.


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## Goblin

Smiler33 said:


> I hope you don't think I'm asking a daft question but would just appreciate your advice.


What would be daft is to ponder and not get other people's thoughts  Sure other people think the same, just never ask.

My opinion is if you are not sure, I wouldn't go the raw route. You may want to think about the possibility of having a "raw day" on occasion though if you want to make yourself feel better/give your dogs a treat


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## Smiler33

Thank you Goblin.


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## Goblin

If you do go down the raw route, remember, avoid overfeeding and go slowly with introducing different meat types.


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## Erisda

Hi all, been a while since I've been online but mainly due to my now 11 month old beagles health. Ever since I got hi, at 3/4 months nothing agreed with him tried different high quality kibble chicken and rice and several vet trips. Finally sat down and while he wasn't losing weight he was itchy with scabby skin and ears and always chewing his feet. 
I have always been intrigued by a raw diet for him and while I had tried natural instinct once before I put his vomiting down to just his digestion was so bad from several months of antibiotics.
So 3 weeks ago I went out bought some low fat yogurt, chicken and rice and started trying to build up the probiotic and things in his gut. Now as of 2 weeks and going strong he is on raw chicken usually either sliced up breast or wings which he chews wonderfully , a small handful of steamed veg or rice and recently started adding some beef cuts. 
Now I'm sort of at a loss as to how to proceed. His skin is no longer inflamed and itchiness is non existent no more paw chewing and I can finally pick up the poo rather than having to scoop and no longer smells. 
I'm just wondering how best to proceed, as I live in Northern Ireland so it seems a lot of companies are unable to send products to me without expensive postage.
If it's any help Charlie is 11 months, around 20kg though may Be closer to 25 as he is very large for his breed, about the size of small lab but no excess fat on him, just a solid muscley boy

Thank you all in advance x


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## RAW MAX

Woodie73 said:


> Hi, I'm new to the site, but really need your advice. I am a border collie, 6 years old. He is semi-active, I've walks/runs a few miles a day, everyday. He is seriously overweight, and over the years we have tried everything; diet, hydrotherapy, and now a couple of months ago we switched to raw. He loves the new diet, but is still gaining weight!
> 
> He is 38.9 kg! We feed him approx 500-600g per day, split into 2 meals I've 300-350g morning, and 200-250g at supper time.
> 
> We feed him a mixture of chicken thighs and chicken legs, cubed steak, pork ribs, minced beef, heart, and the occasional kidney and liver (in moderation). He also gets a bowl of milk once/twice a week.
> 
> He doesn't get much titbits, but he is a moocher, so he does get the odd corner of biscuit, but not everyday, and not enough to make him the size he is. The vet is no help, just trying to put him back on a low fat kibble (which we tried before, unsuccessfully), and nagging at us to get his weight down, like we haven't tried!! I asked for his thyroid to be tested, but the blood tress results came back as normal.
> 
> Please, what are we doing wrong? The vet wants to cut his food again, but he is already bordering on hungry, and is on loxicom for joint pain. I really need all the advice I can get, I've read all the forum comments, followed all the links, and read a couple of books, but I must be getting something wrong or he'd be losing weight by now.
> 
> All comments very welcome and gratefully received. Thanks Woodie73


I would cut the food down even more, he is overweight so he will be hungry. Try giving more raw bones to keep him busy instead of eating  Some dogs have a higher metabolism than others, yours might have a slow one so needs even less food


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## RAW MAX

Smiler33 said:


> Hi, I wonder if I can pick your brains please. I have a lovely 19 months Whippet called Whiz and he is thriving - we have a fun time together out walking, have started Agility twice a week and we love our most favourite thing which is snuggling on the sofa. I also have an almost 11 year old JRT 'Pip' who has skin allergies and IBS.
> 
> I feed Millies Wolfheart and Whiz is doing well on it. I imagine he's probably 16kg; haven't weighed him but I'd say he's put a bit of weight on since being castrated. Pip is around 7.5kg but has slowed down a lot over the last few months; she has a daily steroid to help with the IBS and she also has a limp in her front right leg so can't walk as far as she used to but is happy. To me though the food looks boring - I have been wondering about going down the natural raw food diet and feeding something like Natures Menu/Nutriment and bones until I get confident enough to follow a 'proper' Barf diet.
> 
> Am I being stupid by putting human emotions on this? Part of me is saying if it isn't broke don't try to fix it but another part is saying the dogs would enjoy mince/bones like dogs used to have and are bred to have?
> 
> I hope you don't think I'm asking a daft question but would just appreciate your advice.


Go on to the raw!  Your dogs will love it and I bet those skin allergies will disappear, coat will look better and overall better health. Kids can live off mcdonalds, doesn't mean it is best for them


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## Amanda Allcock

Does anyone have a landywoods feeding guide? I have a 6 month old English setter they I want to move over to raw. He is current 16kg and should be around 25kg when fully grown and I don't know how much he should have. He's currently on akela kibble but he's stopped eating it.I used to feed my cockers landywoods a few years ago,but he's a fair bit bigger than they ever were.


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## DirtyGertie

Amanda Allcock said:


> Does anyone have a landywoods feeding guide? I have a 6 month old English setter they I want to move over to raw. He is current 16kg and should be around 25kg when fully grown and I don't know how much he should have. He's currently on akela kibble but he's stopped eating it.I used to feed my cockers landywoods a few years ago,but he's a fair bit bigger than they ever were.


I've not used Landywoods nor do I have their guide, but is it any different from all the other advice out there about raw feeding?

Here's a link to The Dog's Dinner by Ann Ridyard, the page should be for feeding puppies but as I'm on my tablet it looks different from when I look at this site on my PC so I hope it works OK http://dogsdinner2.m.webs.com/site/...1&fw_sig_site=85465967&fb_sig_network=fw#2313

I quite like her site, have a look round and hopefully you'll find some good advice.

Hope that helps.


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## Amanda Allcock

Then you, that's great


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## Marlo.8

Hi I'm new to this and going to be new to raw feeding. I will be getting my puppy very soon she's a American akita and I was hoping you lot could help me with managing her diet.

Here's my shopping list (from landywoods) :
454g x20 of tripe mince
454g ×20 of chicken and salmon mince
454g x20 of offal mix (25% beef, 25%heart, 25% lungs, 25% offal) 
5kg of chicken wings
5kg of Turkey necks 
4 x veil ribs

I was thinking this would last me a month and I was planning to mix the chicken n salmon with the tripe and start her of with that for a week then introduce her to the offal mix mince for another week and then mix the remaining chicken n salmon with tripe and offal mix and give her that for the rest of the month.

I would give her 3 meals a day and I was planning to give her 1 Turkey neck and chicken wing in the morning and when she finished that I would give her a 1/3 of her meal (mince) and then another 1/3 in the afternoon and then the last meal in the evening and before she goes bed I would give her another neck and wing. On Sundays I would replace the neck and wing with a veal rib which I would cut in half n give her half in the morning and half before she goes bed.

Please give me suggestion to improve this plan or if it's wrong please let me know. Thank you.


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## DirtyGertie

Marlo.8 said:


> Hi I'm new to this and going to be new to raw feeding. I will be getting my puppy very soon she's a American akita and I was hoping you lot could help me with managing her diet.
> 
> Here's my shopping list (from landywoods) :
> 454g x20 of tripe mince
> 454g ×20 of chicken and salmon mince
> 454g x20 of offal mix (25% beef, 25%heart, 25% lungs, 25% offal)
> 5kg of chicken wings
> 5kg of Turkey necks
> 4 x veil ribs
> 
> I was thinking this would last me a month and I was planning to mix the chicken n salmon with the tripe and start her of with that for a week then introduce her to the offal mix mince for another week and then mix the remaining chicken n salmon with tripe and offal mix and give her that for the rest of the month.
> 
> I would give her 3 meals a day and I was planning to give her 1 Turkey neck and chicken wing in the morning and when she finished that I would give her a 1/3 of her meal (mince) and then another 1/3 in the afternoon and then the last meal in the evening and before she goes bed I would give her another neck and wing. On Sundays I would replace the neck and wing with a veal rib which I would cut in half n give her half in the morning and half before she goes bed.
> 
> Please give me suggestion to improve this plan or if it's wrong please let me know. Thank you.


I don't know how much research you have done into raw feeding but I suggest you go to page 1 of this thread and read the first few posts.

Also, here's a link to The Dog's Dinner by Ann Ridyard, the page should be for feeding puppies but as I'm on my tablet it looks different from when I look at this site on my PC so I hope it works OK
http://dogsdinner2.m.webs.com/site/...1&fw_sig_site=85465967&fb_sig_network=fw#2313 It's an excellent site and well worth taking a good look round.

You should then be able to work out how much your pup needs to be fed and you'll know the ratios of meat, offal and bone to give.

You need to start with a single protein only, usually chicken, for about a week. If everything is OK then introduce a new protein alongside the chicken. Do that for a week. Then introduce a third protein alongside the first two. You need to do this in order to know if your dog has any sensitivity to any particular protein. If you feed a mix of chicken, salmon and tripe from the start and your dog has a reaction, you're not going to know what she is reacting to. I know it's exciting having a new puppy and wanting the best for her, and you want to give her a good diet, but you need to do the boring, slow, gradual introduction of each protein.

I would also build up the bone gradually, she needs to learn how to eat it as some dogs (mine included) are greedy and will just take on crunch swallow. Hold the bone to start with until she knows what to do. Be careful not to overdo the bone, mine can't have anywhere near the usual 10% as she then has great difficulty pooping.

In a few weeks you'll find you have a great varied diet which your dog will love. Good luck.


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## Marlo.8

DirtyGertie said:


> I don't know how much research you have done into raw feeding but I suggest you go to page 1 of this thread and read the first few posts.
> 
> Also, here's a link to The Dog's Dinner by Ann Ridyard, the page should be for feeding puppies but as I'm on my tablet it looks different from when I look at this site on my PC so I hope it works OK
> http://dogsdinner2.m.webs.com/site/...1&fw_sig_site=85465967&fb_sig_network=fw#2313 It's an excellent site and well worth taking a good look round.
> 
> You should then be able to work out how much your pup needs to be fed and you'll know the ratios of meat, offal and bone to give.
> 
> You need to start with a single protein only, usually chicken, for about a week. If everything is OK then introduce a new protein alongside the chicken. Do that for a week. Then introduce a third protein alongside the first two. You need to do this in order to know if your dog has any sensitivity to any particular protein. If you feed a mix of chicken, salmon and tripe from the start and your dog has a reaction, you're not going to know what she is reacting to. I know it's exciting having a new puppy and wanting the best for her, and you want to give her a good diet, but you need to do the boring, slow, gradual introduction of each protein.
> 
> I would also build up the bone gradually, she needs to learn how to eat it as some dogs (mine included) are greedy and will just take on crunch swallow. Hold the bone to start with until she knows what to do. Be careful not to overdo the bone, mine can't have anywhere near the usual 10% as she then has great difficulty pooping.
> 
> In a few weeks you'll find you have a great varied diet which your dog will love. Good luck.


Thank you for your reply and yeah i realised I need to do more researching. I will get back to you when I do and let you know the new plan so you can further assist me on that. Anyway thanks again.


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## Marlo.8

DirtyGertie said:


> I don't know how much research you have done into raw feeding but I suggest you go to page 1 of this thread and read the first few posts.
> 
> Also, here's a link to The Dog's Dinner by Ann Ridyard, the page should be for feeding puppies but as I'm on my tablet it looks different from when I look at this site on my PC so I hope it works OK
> http://dogsdinner2.m.webs.com/site/...1&fw_sig_site=85465967&fb_sig_network=fw#2313 It's an excellent site and well worth taking a good look round.
> 
> You should then be able to work out how much your pup needs to be fed and you'll know the ratios of meat, offal and bone to give.
> 
> You need to start with a single protein only, usually chicken, for about a week. If everything is OK then introduce a new protein alongside the chicken. Do that for a week. Then introduce a third protein alongside the first two. You need to do this in order to know if your dog has any sensitivity to any particular protein. If you feed a mix of chicken, salmon and tripe from the start and your dog has a reaction, you're not going to know what she is reacting to. I know it's exciting having a new puppy and wanting the best for her, and you want to give her a good diet, but you need to do the boring, slow, gradual introduction of each protein.
> 
> I would also build up the bone gradually, she needs to learn how to eat it as some dogs (mine included) are greedy and will just take on crunch swallow. Hold the bone to start with until she knows what to do. Be careful not to overdo the bone, mine can't have anywhere near the usual 10% as she then has great difficulty pooping.
> 
> In a few weeks you'll find you have a great varied diet which your dog will love. Good luck.


If it's not too much to ask could you give me a like a shopping list of the things I should buy from landywoods to start everything of. Thanks.


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## kipling2536

Hello all
It's been a while since I posted on here.
Last year, we gave our two doggies (pictured) a go on the frozen Natures Instinct raw food. We gave it a good go, we really did, but our Spitz is a funny eater at the best of times, in fact he's not food motivated at all, and he often wouldn't eat the raw. The Chinese Crested is like a goat, eating most things and he took better to it but occasionally wouldn't eat a flavour. Because I have anxiety and am a worrier anyways, this started to freak me out, I didn;t like to think they were going hungry and we caved in and transitioned them back on Naturo wet food and kibble.

Last summer and winter was rough for us as a family, my dad passed away in December and we moved away with our two mums to a new life. I'm now pretty busy with the oldies and the thought of paying so much attention to what I may have to prepare and plan to back to raw is rather intimidating.
Last weekend, the crestie had vomiting and runny poo. A trip to the vet and some meds cleared that up. We fed them on boiled rice and chicken for around 4-5 days and they are back on the normal again now. The CC poo is still a little loose.

Also, I am worried that should one of them need to stay at the vets overnight, we go on hols and have to take raw, frozen with us, etc I will panic about making sure they will be ok.

Sorry for the ramble, I'm wanting to look at the raw diet again, and have been reading through the posts on here, but am just unsure. 

Apologies again, I'm all of a tizzy. Thanks.

Amanda


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## kipling2536

Me again......feeding them a frozen raw food would be preferable and more convenient for me as we are carers for two octagenarians as I said, and we are a vegetarian family. Any advice or recommendations of successful alternatives to Nature's Instinct, gratefully accepted.

Thanks again
Amanda


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## LowBobby

Hi all, 

Some weeks ago I found this and I dont know if is correct... what u think about?

beefy chicken bones?


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## LowBobby

my best wishes for your recovery


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## Conor Brady

> Do you think it is ok to have this mix or would it be better to try and get him to alternate between the two?
> 
> I just want to make sure he is getting the right levels of nutrition so would appreciate your comments.


Hey guys. The whole mixing thing is dreadfully confused. It stems from when dry fed dogs were fed a heap of fresh meat and they barfed it up. Folk concluded that you can't mix the two. But you absolutely can. I mean, wouldn't this "different digestive times" thing popped up in humans at some stage? Cheese on crackers? A ham sandwich etc. The truth is dogs are shown to digestively condition to dry food. Their stomach acids rise from a normal carnivorous pH1.5 to pH2.5 (that's ten times more basic.... the same pH we omnivores have). Reason being these acids suit the enzymes and acids released before dinner necessary for a high cereal, plant based and nearly zero meat meal (that's all the gurgling and squirting you hear in furry bellies before din dins!). If you lob in a heap of fresh meat it mightn't digest all that well. The dog will bring it up rather than kill himself pushing it though his intestines undigested!

The best advice for dogs starting on a fresh diet is probably to do it slowly, bit one meal, bit more the next. Give him time to adjust. That's what we advise over here, no puking! This has the added benefit of out-smarting picky eaters - the first time you have calamari you don't want to the squid!!! (particularly proud of that one!!).


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## marasmum

Hiya. Can I ask a daft question re raw. We have just started Casper on raw and he is loving it so far. Today he has had his first proper raw Marrowbone, he has enjoyed it for an hour and has now gone for a snooze and it isn't 'finished'.

So, now for the daft question, what do I do with it now?? After all it is raw meat. Do I put it in the fridge for later/tomorrow? Or bin?

For info it was a frozen then defrosted bone from Naturemenu.

Thank you


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## MiffyMoo

marasmum said:


> Hiya. Can I ask a daft question re raw. We have just started Casper on raw and he is loving it so far. Today he has had his first proper raw Marrowbone, he has enjoyed it for an hour and has now gone for a snooze and it isn't 'finished'.
> 
> So, now for the daft question, what do I do with it now?? After all it is raw meat. Do I put it in the fridge for later/tomorrow? Or bin?
> 
> For info it was a frozen then defrosted bone from Naturemenu.
> 
> Thank you


I tend to throw them away once they have been abandoned, but mainly because they fight over them. Dex gets bored after he has scooped out all the marrow and doesn't care about the bone, until Lola decides that she cares....


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## marasmum

MiffyMoo said:


> I tend to throw them away once they have been abandoned, but mainly because they fight over them. Dex gets bored after he has scooped out all the marrow and doesn't care about the bone, until Lola decides that she cares....


Lol  Certainly in the past when I have been fostering, anything unfinished food/treat was taken away - but tbh that rarely happened!. Casper is on his lonesome (for now  ) and he has only eaten half of it (the marrow and the meat surrounding it), so it seems a lot of money and a waste - as I bought at my local petshop - for something that will be discarded after an hour. I am slowly trying to get him to chew smaller things as he tries to swallow things whole, so this was great for him; he happily nibbled away, rather than full on crunch/chew/swallow.


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## Muttly

I would pick it up and put in the fridge, so you can get it out again when you want him to have it. 

I leave them out with Muttly, but I think this may not be good for him as he isn't as fussed and I wonder if this is because they are always hanging around. So I will now be using them as more of a treat. Something he can't have all the time, in the hope he will be more excited about it.


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## marasmum

Muttly said:


> I would pick it up and put in the fridge, so you can get it out again when you want him to have it.
> 
> I leave them out with Muttly, but I think this may not be good for him as he isn't as fussed and I wonder if this is because they are always hanging around. So I will now be using them as more of a treat. Something he can't have all the time, in the hope he will be more excited about it.


...just back from work......

Thank you. Well, I put it in the fridge, but......many many moons ago I did advanced food hygiene so am still a bit OTT  when it comes to raw meat (one of the reasons I have resisted feeding raw) But I shall take a deep breath and carry on 

AND most importantly, no ill affects to eating the bone reported by OH while I was at work, so all good...so far


----------



## MiffyMoo

marasmum said:


> ...just back from work......
> 
> Thank you. Well, I put it in the fridge, but......many many moons ago I did advanced food hygiene so am still a bit OTT  when it comes to raw meat (one of the reasons I have resisted feeding raw) But I shall take a deep breath and carry on
> 
> AND most importantly, no ill affects to eating the bone reported by OH while I was at work, so all good...so far


My favourite thing about raw feeding is the tiny, hard poops; so easy to pick up! If his poos start getting too white, then cut back on the bone


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## Conor Brady

marasmum said:


> ...just back from work......
> 
> Thank you. Well, I put it in the fridge, but......many many moons ago I did advanced food hygiene so am still a bit OTT  when it comes to raw meat (one of the reasons I have resisted feeding raw) But I shall take a deep breath and carry on
> 
> AND most importantly, no ill affects to eating the bone reported by OH while I was at work, so all good...so far


Hey Marasmum. I personally wouldn't be putting bones back in my fridge for hygiene reasons either. That's raw meat that's been rolled around on the ground, flies laying eggs on it. There's no need. I'd personally leave them in the garden (they lose in interest in a dry bone, especially when they know a new one is days away!) or throw them out when they lose interest in them. It's great you've started them on bones but those bg marrow bones are a divil, they're diamond hard (leg, supporting bone) so much harder to chew / crunch, will be left in your garden and crack teeth. When you get a bit braver try feeding smaller bones more appropriate for the dog, like chicken legs, duck necks, lamb carcass. They'll safely consume all of these, getting great nutrition and cleaning teeth and ridding you of the whole worry of what to do with them! More on appropriate bone feeding here hwww.dogsfirst.ie/raw-faq/how-to-feed-a-dog-bones/. There's a whole lot of fear when initially jumping to feeding them fresh, largely as you don't have the support of your vet. But don't worry. If you ask any doubter what exact percentages to calcium / protein tehy gave the kids last week they wouldn't have a clue. It's fear that kept you buying that bag of dry food (and flea and worm treatments for dogs with no fleas or worms, and annually boosting already vaccinated dogs against the advice of the top vet immunologists). It's great when it's gone!


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## Muttly

Meh, I put it in a tied up bag or a sealed tub. We are all ok.


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## MiffyMoo

Don't worry about giving the odd marrow bone, the dogs are too busy trying to get the marrow out of the middle to think about crunching them, but just keep an eye on him if you are at all worried. Also, their stomachs are much stronger than ours, so can handle day old bones with meat still left on them.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...ll-your-dog-find-out-which-ones-are-safe.aspx


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## marasmum

Conor Brady said:


> Hey Marasmum. I personally wouldn't be putting bones back in my fridge for hygiene reasons either. That's raw meat that's been rolled around on the ground, flies laying eggs on it. There's no need. I'd personally leave them in the garden (they lose in interest in a dry bone, especially when they know a new one is days away!) or throw them out when they lose interest in them. It's great you've started them on bones but those bg marrow bones are a divil, they're diamond hard (leg, supporting bone) so much harder to chew / crunch, will be left in your garden and crack teeth. When you get a bit braver try feeding smaller bones more appropriate for the dog, like chicken legs, duck necks, lamb carcass. They'll safely consume all of these, getting great nutrition and cleaning teeth and ridding you of the whole worry of what to do with them! More on appropriate bone feeding here hwww.dogsfirst.ie/raw-faq/how-to-feed-a-dog-bones/. There's a whole lot of fear when initially jumping to feeding them fresh, largely as you don't have the support of your vet. But don't worry. If you ask any doubter what exact percentages to calcium / protein tehy gave the kids last week they wouldn't have a clue. It's fear that kept you buying that bag of dry food (and flea and worm treatments for dogs with no fleas or worms, and annually boosting already vaccinated dogs against the advice of the top vet immunologists). It's great when it's gone!





Muttly said:


> Meh, I put it in a tied up bag or a sealed tub. We are all ok.





MiffyMoo said:


> Don't worry about giving the odd marrow bone, the dogs are too busy trying to get the marrow out of the middle to think about crunching them, but just keep an eye on him if you are at all worried. Also, their stomachs are much stronger than ours, so can handle day old bones with meat still left on them.
> 
> http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2010/05/19/caution-bones-can-kill-your-dog-find-out-which-ones-are-safe.aspx


Thanks all. tbh I am actually (perversely for me) enjoying the process of learning about raw feeding him. He certainly is enjoying emptying my pocket with the Naturesmenu range, he hasn't refused any of it, clearly enjoys it and seems more satisfied. I am also finding it better at controlling his intake - in balance with his increase in exercise, so hopefully we can get his weight etc to what it should be. He is only a kilo or two over what he should be, so nothing dramatic really, but with his joints we would prefer him leaner than t'other way.

I will get braver in terms of what we feed him raw and will venture into mixing my own etc, and yes, I am trying to get him to chew smaller things, but I think that will take time as he doesn't seem to like 'chewy' things, so for example he was more interested in licking the marrow out than the surrounding meat. He had a nibble at the meat, but anything stringy/chewy he had a go, and I had to watch him carefully as he has a tendency just to swallow, but he left it and went back to the 'easy' bit 

The only thing I have found that doesn't really suit him, is Pork. Other than that he appears to have a cast iron stomach; given the stuff he has helped himself to in the early days, and still would given the chance!

Thanks again for the advice and encouragement. Cannot believe after all these years we are only just looking at raw feeding, hey ho, we live and learn eh?


----------



## MiffyMoo

marasmum said:


> Thanks all. tbh I am actually (perversely for me) enjoying the process of learning about raw feeding him. He certainly is enjoying emptying my pocket with the Naturesmenu range, he hasn't refused any of it, clearly enjoys it and seems more satisfied. I am also finding it better at controlling his intake - in balance with his increase in exercise, so hopefully we can get his weight etc to what it should be. He is only a kilo or two over what he should be, so nothing dramatic really, but with his joints we would prefer him leaner than t'other way.
> 
> I will get braver in terms of what we feed him raw and will venture into mixing my own etc, and yes, I am trying to get him to chew smaller things, but I think that will take time as he doesn't seem to like 'chewy' things, so for example he was more interested in licking the marrow out than the surrounding meat. He had a nibble at the meat, but anything stringy/chewy he had a go, and I had to watch him carefully as he has a tendency just to swallow, but he left it and went back to the 'easy' bit
> 
> The only thing I have found that doesn't really suit him, is Pork. Other than that he appears to have a cast iron stomach; given the stuff he has helped himself to in the early days, and still would given the chance!
> 
> Thanks again for the advice and encouragement. Cannot believe after all these years we are only just looking at raw feeding, hey ho, we live and learn eh?


I used to love doing it DIY, when I had Balto, but Dex thinks that eating anything that looks vaguely animal like is sacrilege, so I had to get him the minces. Thankfully he has started enjoying chicken carcass, and will occasionally gnaw on a rib or a marrow bone, as I was despairing of him ever getting any teeth cleaning done


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## Muttly

MiffyMoo said:


> I used to love doing it DIY, when I had Balto, but Dex thinks that eating anything that looks vaguely animal like is sacrilege, so I had to get him the minces. Thankfully he has started enjoying chicken carcass, and will occasionally gnaw on a rib or a marrow bone, as I was despairing of him ever getting any teeth cleaning done


I despair sometimes at Muttly too. He doesn't like Duck Necks, (thanks boy I have a kilo of them in my freezer)  Takes ages to eat half a chicken wing. He's squeemish over offal and doesn't always like egg, so yeah he's not the best raw feeding candidate , but he does do well on it and it's just been a challenge finding the things he does love and will eat. But we are there, pretty much.

He loves a good variety of meat, mince or chunked, he likes lamb bones, sprats, chicken/turkey hearts and I find ways to get the offal into him. He also does like a raw carrot which helps the teeth


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## MiffyMoo

Muttly said:


> I despair sometimes at Muttly too. He doesn't like Duck Necks, (thanks boy I have a kilo of them in my freezer)  Takes ages to eat half a chicken wing. He's squeemish over offal and doesn't always like egg, so yeah he's not the best raw feeding candidate , but he does do well on it and it's just been a challenge finding the things he does love and will eat. But we are there, pretty much.
> 
> He loves a good variety of meat, mince or chunked, he likes lamb bones, sprats, chicken/turkey hearts and I find ways to get the offal into him. He also does like a raw carrot which helps the teeth


Oh, I forgot to add that Dex will happily hoover up a lovely raw steak from my local organic butcher.... Unfortunately for him, I have not won the lottery, so he will have to start selling his little furry body if he wants that sort of meal every day


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## marasmum

Muttly said:


> I despair sometimes at Muttly too. He doesn't like Duck Necks, (thanks boy I have a kilo of them in my freezer)  Takes ages to eat half a chicken wing. He's squeemish over offal and doesn't always like egg, so yeah he's not the best raw feeding candidate , but he does do well on it and it's just been a challenge finding the things he does love and will eat. But we are there, pretty much.
> 
> He loves a good variety of meat, mince or chunked, he likes lamb bones, sprats, chicken/turkey hearts and I find ways to get the offal into him. He also does like a raw carrot which helps the teeth





MiffyMoo said:


> Oh, I forgot to add that Dex will happily hoover up a lovely raw steak from my local organic butcher.... Unfortunately for him, I have not won the lottery, so he will have to start selling his little furry body if he wants that sort of meal every day


hahahaha these made me chuckle.

Well, Casper happily munches carrots and apples, and the vet reckons his teeth are fine.. Casper also loves raw egg....however...the smell that follows :Wideyed is just plain nasty...

(And it should be noted that I have NEVER given Casper a raw egg, just as I am leaving for work in the evening, after my OH has done something to p1$$ me off. Nope, never. )


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## MiffyMoo

marasmum said:


> hahahaha these made me chuckle.
> 
> Well, Casper happily munches carrots and apples, and the vet reckons his teeth are fine.. Casper also loves raw egg....however...the smell that follows :Wideyed is just plain nasty...
> 
> (And it should be noted that I have NEVER given Casper a raw egg, just as I am leaving for work in the evening, after my OH has done something to p1$$ me off. Nope, never. )


Hahaha, revenge is a dish served... raw


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## Muttly

marasmum said:


> hahahaha these made me chuckle.
> 
> Well, Casper happily munches carrots and apples, and the vet reckons his teeth are fine.. Casper also loves raw egg....however...the smell that follows :Wideyed is just plain nasty...
> 
> (And it should be noted that I have NEVER given Casper a raw egg, just as I am leaving for work in the evening, after my OH has done something to p1$$ me off. Nope, never. )


:Hilarious love that!


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## spiritofcouse

katiefranke said:


> *Pictures and preparation tips*
> 
> Ok some piccies of typical meals in my house!
> 
> Take one whole chicken:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and cut off leg & thigh 1/4 and wing with some breast 1/4:
> 
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> 
> then if it is a decent size chicken you can get some meat off the breast for a meal too:
> 
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> 
> 
> I cut off the wing tips for a treat for the cats!
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> And the meaty carcass can make a decent boney meal too;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you get 4 chicken 1/4, some breast meat and a carcass out of chicken - for a larger dog you could just cut in half!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heres a nice meaty meal - beef brisket - cut in half or appropriate meal sizes, or just feed as a whole lump - nice and tough to give a real good chewy workout:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lump of lamb leg - again cut into half or appropriate portion sizes, or just feed as a whole lump:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slabs of pork ribs:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> and some ox heart in slices - I usually give whole but was cutting this for the cats too, so i would give a slice of this along with something else for maggie:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More ideas:
> Sleeping Lion's thread with some great pictures of the kinds of things you will be feeding on a raw diet - including tips on how to prepare! To view the full thread conversation view here: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-heal...arning-gory-pics-post1616712.html#post1616712
> 
> *WARNING, GORY PICCIES OF RAW MEAT*
> 
> Some more great piccies of 'Logan/Matrix's boys eating their first bones!
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/115833-boys-gnashing-their-first-bone-chomp-chomp-chomp.html
> 
> And for anyone who would like to make up their own *veggie mixes, here are some great preparation tips*:


Hi I have allot of Acana kibble left which I dont wish to waste.can I still feed kibble and add raw to it


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## MiffyMoo

spiritofcouse said:


> Hi I have allot of Acana kibble left which I dont wish to waste.can I still feed kibble and add raw to it


No reason why not. I do, as mine won't eat all raw


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## spiritofcouse

Pk can share with me how you do it,frequency and what you feed.


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## MiffyMoo

spiritofcouse said:


> Pk can share with me how you do it,frequency and what you feed.


I feed as I normally would, so 2 meals a day, 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening. Is your dog just on kibble at the moment? If so, start slowly adding the raw, so maybe add 10% on the first day, whilst taking the kibble down by 10% and so on


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## Guest

What sort of price per kilo overall are people paying for their raw food then. Seems the cheapest I'm finding is £2.50-£3.00.


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## MiffyMoo

NexivRed said:


> What sort of price per kilo overall are people paying for their raw food then. Seems the cheapest I'm finding is £2.50-£3.00.


Is that pre-made mince? It really depends; I think the cheapest that I found was Kiezebrink, but their minces are a bit too rich for my guys. Don't forget to add in delivery charges, if you're not buying locally


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## Guest

I just mean in general whether it's online, supermarket, local butchers or a mixture of them all. I'm trying to price up for a 70kg dog and want to try and keep it under £100 a month.


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## MiffyMoo

NexivRed said:


> I just mean in general whether it's online, supermarket, local butchers or a mixture of them all. I'm trying to price up for a 70kg dog and want to try and keep it under £100 a month.


I buy my pre-made minces online. Unfortunately I don't know how much it will cost if you do DIY, as mine won't eat anything that looks remotely like it used to when it was alive


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## Chrisheathcote

I get my minces from Bulmers which is typically between £1.20 & £2 dependant in what we get. From the butcher we where paying about 2.50 for pre mixed bags of bone, offal and chunks. Only changed because we were getting less and less chunks in the bags. We now use mince, tripe chunks (£1.50 kg) and bones vary between £1.50 to £3 per kg


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## BlueJay

I get our minces from DAF, their prices seem reasonable and it's free delivery to certain areas.
A nice selection of different meats too.

E.g.
50lbs of tripe for £33.50
Turkey, chicken, duck, veal, rabbit, venison, heart, white fish, salmon, trout, pork, beef etc


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## Nicole652

Hi all I am a newbie here with a lovely springer spaniel boy who I adore!
I have heard others recommending the raw food diet and wandered if you have any tips?
I've heard that you should also include vegetables but I am unsure if these should be raw or cooked?
I have started the diet today but intend to do it in a half way sort of way.
I plan to give my boy scrambled egg for breakfast or occassionally some fish and then raw meat for his dinner of an evening. 
However the conflicting information means I am struggling to find the exact right amount of protein and veg he needs for a balanced and reasonably healthy diet.
Any help please? X


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## Bigdogswinmyheart

I've changed our 15 month old Anatolian cross (small amounts of Saint Bernard, Kuvazs and Labrador Retriever in her), who is 63kg to Raw feed. She has a combination of; chicken wings, chicken breast (skin and bone on), beef, lamb, raw fish, kidney, heart (a combination of 3 of these per day). With 3 different vegies and fruit a day (curly Kale, carrots, sweet pototo (grated), blueberrys, strawberrys, apples, kiwi), and an agg twice a week. Am I missing something for her coat? She is totally blowing her undercoat just on her hips to the point she has bald patches (but her guard hair is still there), but the vet says she is totally healthy has no paracites and has no idea why, am I missing something?
I will also point out she is not chewing at herself., and it fell out while brushing her on the front of the boney bit of her hips (both sides)


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## Goblin

Bigdogswinmyheart said:


> I've changed our 15 month old Anatolian cross (small amounts of Saint Bernard, Kuvazs and Labrador Retriever in her), who is 63kg to Raw feed. She has a combination of; chicken wings, chicken breast (skin and bone on), beef, lamb, raw fish, kidney, heart (a combination of 3 of these per day). With 3 different vegies and fruit a day (curly Kale, carrots, sweet pototo (grated), blueberrys, strawberrys, apples, kiwi), and an agg twice a week. Am I missing something for her coat? She is totally blowing her undercoat just on her hips to the point she has bald patches (but her guard hair is still there), but the vet says she is totally healthy has no paracites and has no idea why, am I missing something?
> I will also point out she is not chewing at herself., and it fell out while brushing her on the front of the boney bit of her hips (both sides)


Any liver? Most people include up to 5% liver as it contains many essential nutrients easily accessible. Can't see it would be the cause for balding but something I personally would include in the diet.


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## Bigdogswinmyheart

yes, turns out it's probably just blowing the coat combined with puppy to adolescent coat  Vet said she's perfect if not a little silly looking 1/2 nude in winter lol.


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## arcamenal

Hi everyone, 

After doing a lot of research I think I'd like to feed my new puppy a raw diet. However as a vegetarian myself I'm a bit apprehensive! I was thinking about buying from wolftucker or nutriment. 

Does anyone have any opinions on these? 

Will my new puppy be upset by the new food? I know it can be simpler to change a puppy to a raw diet compared with an older dog, but is it better to wait until the puppy has settled in with me and has grown a bit?

Thank you.


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## Sairy

Hi, I've been feeding my GSD raw for a while now and I have been giving her mostly chicken, lamb or tripe with a bit of offal, bone and veg. I would like to introduce fish and gather that mackerel and salmon are good choices. I just wanted to check though, are fish bones ok for the dog to eat? Also, I'm assuming I feed the fish raw? Sorry if these are stupid questions, but I just want to make sure. I know this question has probably already been answered on here, but with the number of replies I didn't really want to sift through everything!


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## Goblin

Whole fish should not be a problem. We've fed them before. However for one of our dogs, it did cause loose stools. Tend not to be able to get whole fish easily here.


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## Sairy

Goblin said:


> Whole fish should not be a problem. We've fed them before. However for one of our dogs, it did cause loose stools. Tend not to be able to get whole fish easily here.


Thank you


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## Joan Loves Dogs

Goblin said:


> Whole fish should not be a problem. We've fed them before. However for one of our dogs, it did cause loose stools. Tend not to be able to get whole fish easily here.


Thank you for the help! Exactly what I needed to know.


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## sesmo

A bit of help please. I've just transitioned Obie totally on to raw. He's never been a big fan of processed food, you can put his bowl down and he'll have a sniff, mooch off then come back to it later. He's a healthy weight and has plenty of energy. I started with nature's menu minces but have been adding more raw beef chunks and chicken to his diet. This week he had his first chicken wing and totally loved it. Obviously I kept an eye on him to make sure he didn't gulp big bits down but he's had a couple now and chewed them up nicely. Helps that he doesn't weigh quite 5kgs so they are perfectly sized for him. Now that he's had a taste of bones and fresh raw meat he's totally off vegetables! Even the Nature's Menu tripe chunks with veg which were his addiction. 

What veg do dogs tend to go for? I've tried whole and grated carrot, sweet potato (cooked), peas and green beans. He's turned his nose up at everything! Think he's hoping for another wing 

Many thanks


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## Mum2Heidi

There are different schools of thought re veg and raw fed dogs. Some feel it's unnecessary. My little one couldn't tolerate a lot. Natures Menu complete blocks came out in piles of veg.
She was fine with their Just meat range and added offal. She also had Natural Instinct which is a complete raw with v little veg. Nutriment is also an option.(there are lots more)
I personally wouldn't be concerned with no veg.


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## sesmo

Brilliant, thank you very much. Sometimes feel like he's a naughty child who won't eat his greens


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## newbielou

Hi a bit of a long rambling post coming up from me.
I have a cockapoo that looks like a spaniel, accidental litter between 2 cockapoos, I went to visiti and the 'breeder' told me no one would want this pup cos theres no poodle in her. That cemented it she was coming home with me. I kept her on Royal Canin that the breeder had her on for a couple of months but she was always a fussy eater andnever seemed to thrive. 
When we was at the vets for a health check I mentioned the food and the vet she wasnt underweight but she really shouldnt lose any more. Back then I asked the vet what he thought to trying raw feeding and he said absolutely not for small dogs that raw feeding was irresponsible. I was disapointed after reading up about raw I was eager to try but nervous of doing anything that could hurt my pup I followed the vets advice. Fast forward 18 months and my dog has tried a variety of dry foods wet foods, trays, grain free everything you could mention and has always been indifferent towards her food. 
However the raw chicken wing that she has had as a treat half a dozen times a year has been greated with enthusiasm.
I went back to the vet and got him to run blood tests as my dog had lost more weight he didnt seem too worried just told me to give her treats that are high in fat to help her put the weight on however this had the unfortunate reaction of explosives from the other end and pup lost even more weight.
Over the last 3 weeks people have made comments about am I forgetting to feed my dog, which is just devastating. Ive tried almost everything I could to get my dog to eat and eat regularly.
I bit the bullet and despite vet advice I bought a bag of chicken mince by natures menu to try her on for her first few days meals. She wolfed it down. Seeing my pup eagerly sat waiting for her meal wagging her tail was the best feeling. After a few days of this I went to my local raw feed supplier which is half hour drive away, they are are supplied by DAF. I bought her a couple of boxes of chicken mince, some necks, wings and a bag of tripe for when shes settled with the chicken.
Well in 2 weeks my dog has put on almost 1 1/2 lb shes calmer more settled theres no diarrhoea and she eats every meal as soon as shes offered it.
I wish i'd done this when I first wanted to my dog is still on the scrawny side but shes putting on weight gradually and onc she reaches a healthy size ill cut back on portion sizes slightly.
I just wanted to say thank you, I read this thread from beginning to end a couple of months ago and it gave me the courage to try raw for my dog and shes never been happier or healthier.
Tizzy says thank you to.


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## Goblin

@newbielou : You may be interested in http://rawfoodvets.com/vets/ You may be able to find a vet near you which supports raw feeding. Sometimes you get vets who blame every illness once they learn you are raw feeding on the diet. You may also find blood test results are slightly different when raw feeding.


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## Mirandashell

Sorry for the stupid question but I've just bought chicken wings from the butcher to give to Ty as his teeth are not good! Do I take the skin off and get rid of it? Or can he have it seperately?


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## lorilu

Mirandashell said:


> Sorry for the stupid question but I've just bought chicken wings from the butcher to give to Ty as his teeth are not good! Do I take the skin off and get rid of it? Or can he have it seperately?


Feed the wing intact with skin and meat. However, bone-in meals will not correct current dental problems. It is usually recommended that you have any dental problems taken care of BEFORE feeding bone-in meals for prevention. If Ty has dental problems bone could cause him a lot of discomfort.

Have his dental done, then initiate the bone-in meals.


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## lorilu

Goblin said:


> @newbielou : You may be interested in http://rawfoodvets.com/vets/ You may be able to find a vet near you which supports raw feeding. *Sometimes you get vets who blame every illness once they learn you are raw feeding on the diet.* You may also find blood test results are slightly different when raw feeding.


Yep, I have one of those.


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## Mirandashell

lorilu said:


> Feed the wing intact with skin and meat. However, bone-in meals will not correct current dental problems. It is usually recommended that you have any dental problems taken care of BEFORE feeding bone-in meals for prevention. If Ty has dental problems bone could cause him a lot of discomfort.
> 
> Have his dental done, then initiate the bone-in meals.


He's had his teeth done. But the rest of them are not very clean so I'm trying to get things that will make them better rather than worse. And he's too old to try a toothbrush. He won't let me near his lips.


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## lorilu

Mirandashell said:


> He's had his teeth done. But the rest of them are not very clean so I'm trying to get things that will make them better rather than worse. And he's too old to try a toothbrush. He won't let me near his lips.


When was the dental done? Bone in meals will help prevent further build up of plaque and tartar but will not get rid of existing problems.


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## Mirandashell

Last Autumn, I think. His ex-mom used to feed him a lot of human food, including junk. I've stopped doing that and I'm trying to get his teeth cleaner without freaking him out by touching his mouth.


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## lizajohn2014

I am continuously giving these foods for my dog


Muscle meat.


Bones.


Organ meats such as livers and kidneys


Raw eggs.


Are these enough for health


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## Jayne and sammy senorita

Hello new here so looking through threads. I give sammy a combo of raw and dried (James wellbeloved) I get the frozen nuggets of raw purely for convenience and she is thriving. She was funny with her food when first came to us icky poos etc possibly nerves and settling in. So I tried raw it seemed to make sense that was what she was used to (when she escaped from the kill shelter in spain for 3 weeks.)


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## ZiggyB

Great thread! I've recently started Ziggy on a raw diet after reading this, I wanted to for a while but thought it a bit complicated. After reading this, everything you need to know in one place! It's been an easy transition. He's loving his new food, at first he'd carry it all the way out to the garden to enjoy it alone! Now he just digs in. I've found it is a bit more expensive than dry feeding but a lot cheaper that wet food, but he's enjoying it better than any other food so that's a plus. And it's natural! Thank you


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## Newfy45

katiefranke said:


> Glad it is useful!! I have posted loads over the last 6 months, so thought it would be good if i put everything in once place for people to read through
> 
> Now if anyone asks we can point them at this thread :thumbup:
> 
> I am sure I havent covered everything though, so if anyone wants to know anything else or thinks I have left anything out, then please just say and I will add stuff to it.


Your info is very useful as I have 75kg Newfoundland with skin allergy and thinking of starting him on raw diet. I'm new to the forum and have been in so many sites looking at how to begin. I do get confused with the ratio in regards to how much meat, offal and so on. My boy has been on kibble since a pup but I have heard good stuff about raw feeding. Even my vet said give it a go


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## victoria171168

Newfy45 said:


> Your info is very useful as I have 75kg Newfoundland with skin allergy and thinking of starting him on raw diet. I'm new to the forum and have been in so many sites looking at how to begin. I do get confused with the ratio in regards to how much meat, offal and so on. My boy has been on kibble since a pup but I have heard good stuff about raw feeding. Even my vet said give it a go


Hi we have two Newfs start off with boned minces and it does get easier.we also add veg though one of ours is now on cytopoint injections for her allergies


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## PooBearsMum

Hi All, I’m new to this site & have learnt so much from this thread & and taken so many notes, you all have such great advice!

We have an 11/12 month old Rottweiler puppy & feel that a raw/barf diet would be best for him! We recently went to a pet store & purchased him natural treats such as sprats & cow/pig throats etc which he really loved & we noticed how shiny his coat was too! His normal food seems to be so coloured and unnatural  so we want to push forward on a more natural diet for him! 

I think I’m clear on most of the advice, however I’m unsure on the quantity . Do I feed him 2 or 3% of body weight? He is 11/12 months & currently 46/47 kg?

Many thanks, Claire


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## Lexiedhb

PooBearsMum said:


> Hi All, I'm new to this site & have learnt so much from this thread & and taken so many notes, you all have such great advice!
> 
> We have an 11/12 month old Rottweiler puppy & feel that a raw/barf diet would be best for him! We recently went to a pet store & purchased him natural treats such as sprats & cow/pig throats etc which he really loved & we noticed how shiny his coat was too! His normal food seems to be so coloured and unnatural  so we want to push forward on a more natural diet for him!
> 
> I think I'm clear on most of the advice, however I'm unsure on the quantity . Do I feed him 2 or 3% of body weight? He is 11/12 months & currently 46/47 kg?
> 
> Many thanks, Claire


As hes young start off with 3% - and go from there. If you notice hes gaining weight, reduce the amount, if you notice he is losing, up it. The 2-3% is just a guide, mine eats under 2% to maintain.

3% of 46.5kg would be 1395g per day, or 1.395kg


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## PooBearsMum

Lexiedhb said:


> As hes young start off with 3% - and go from there. If you notice hes gaining weight, reduce the amount, if you notice he is losing, up it. The 2-3% is just a guide, mine eats under 2% to maintain.
> 
> 3% of 46.5kg would be 1395g per day, or 1.395kg


Thanks so much...will be popping to our local butchers tomorrow


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## Samibruno

Hey, Love this post!!

It is great to see so many on board with raw feeding. With having a Shar Pei - raw is the only foods he can have without suffering from allergies. 

I buy mine from my local raw-feeding pet shop and they have started doing 80/10/10 - so it has the right amount of meat, bone and offal in!! so much easier when i am a full time working mother of a 5 year old. I just add extras to it, (egg, fruit, vegetables, fish based foods). I have also started adding 1/2 tsp of tumeric and 1 tsp of kefir yoghurt to his morning meal and 1 tsp of coconut oil to his evening meal! Makes such a difference.


----------



## All

Hi My dog suffers massively from allergies and we have put her on a raw diet (only foods she can eat) But after a slow transition and now 3 weeks on raw she is still very constipated and when she does go (about once every 4 days) she's has terrible diarrhea. Is this normal and should I continue.

The problem I have is that we have tried vet prescribed hypoallergenic food from Royal canin and this gave her terrible sickness and stomach aches that did not subside. We then tried her on home cooked food and she had similar problems to what we are having now. 

There Is no commercial food she can eat and the custom food companies like tails can not make us a food out of the limited ingredients she can eat. 

We are in a very tough spot and don't really know where to go if the raw diet won't work.


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## Mum2Heidi

I’m sorry to hear your predicament and can’t offer much help but didn’t want to read and run. I fed raw successfully for a while. There’s was always a daily pooh sometimes a little hard and I reduced bone content to resolve.
What raw are you feeding? If it’s pre-made, could there be a small ingredient upsetting things?
Nature’s Menu make pure meat blocks. You add your own bits to make a complete meal. That may be an option.

Have the vets done a thorough check? Do they know she had problems with Royal Canine?
Perhaps another visit to be certain it’s allergies?

It would be a good idea copy this to the Dog Health and Nutrition main section or request a mod move it. More people will see it there to help you.

Hope your little girl feels better soon.


----------



## Samibruno

All said:


> Hi My dog suffers massively from allergies and we have put her on a raw diet (only foods she can eat) But after a slow transition and now 3 weeks on raw she is still very constipated and when she does go (about once every 4 days) she's has terrible diarrhea. Is this normal and should I continue.
> 
> The problem I have is that we have tried vet prescribed hypoallergenic food from Royal canin and this gave her terrible sickness and stomach aches that did not subside. We then tried her on home cooked food and she had similar problems to what we are having now.
> 
> There Is no commercial food she can eat and the custom food companies like tails can not make us a food out of the limited ingredients she can eat.
> 
> We are in a very tough spot and don't really know where to go if the raw diet won't work.


I'm sorry to hear that. I can relate to the allergies. It's hard work!!
What raw are you feeding? And how much bone per day. Constipation from raw is normally down to an uneven balance in foods. It should be 80% meat 10% offal 10% bone. I'm lucky because my raw food supplier does made up foods with the correct balance. 
Have a look at the raw food poster I've attached. It really helped me when I started out. Raw food poo's tell you everything!


----------



## All

The problem we have is that she has so many allergies, the only meats she can eat are beef, pork and venison. She is borderline with salmon and rabbit so we are slowly introducing them. All other meats tested she was allergic to. 

Also the bones from cows, pigs and dear are way to big to give her (especially as she's never had bones in her life) hence why we are going to introduce rabbit (smaller bones). 

At the moment as she's only on week 3 of full raw diet she's getting 80% beef 10% pork and 10% apple or carrot. With yoghurt rotated in every few days. 

Our vet adviced this way. Do you think it best to ignore them and just introduce liver and offal now?


----------



## Samibruno

All said:


> The problem we have is that she has so many allergies, the only meats she can eat are beef, pork and venison. She is borderline with salmon and rabbit so we are slowly introducing them. All other meats tested she was allergic to.
> 
> Also the bones from cows, pigs and dear are way to big to give her (especially as she's never had bones in her life) hence why we are going to introduce rabbit (smaller bones).
> 
> At the moment as she's only on week 3 of full raw diet she's getting 80% beef 10% pork and 10% apple or carrot. With yoghurt rotated in every few days.
> 
> Our vet adviced this way. Do you think it best to ignore them and just introduce liver and offal now?


I would certainly introduce offal purely because that really helps the bowels (to much offal can cause the runs though) but only five the smallest amounts, especially when introducing it. I would advise on a thumb nail portion of liver and the same for kidney. 
My shar pei has awful allergies and has blisters on his skin. I put 1/2 tea spoon of coconut oil into his morning meal along with 1/2 tea spoon of tumeric. On his evening meal I give him 1 tea spoon of kefir (probiotic yoghurt). Read up on them. It's really helped my boy. Along with a raw egg every 3 days. 
Regarding bone - I don't give my dog big bones purely because he's never interested in them. Instead I give him - chicken/duck feet, sprats, ribs, chicken wings/thighs. I find him a lot better on those.


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## All

My dog can't eat any fish bar salmon. And can't eat any poultry or game birds (according to he allergy tests) so chicken is out of the question. Rabbit may be OK.so may try some rabbit bone.


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## niamh123

Hi there.I am new to this forum amd need some advice,I have had my new ebt puppy for a week,when he came to me he was fed beef,chicken and tripe.he is eating every bit of his food,but is having trouble going to the loo,Ihave fed raw for 15 years so ham not new to feeding raw,i have tried upping the meat content by adding more muscle meat and liver ,yesterday I addes natures menu veg and fruit blend but he is still having a hard time of going to the loo.he drinks very small amounts of water.despit this problem he is happy and playful,any advice would be appreciated


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## TennoAkita

Hey all,

Similar to the picture above, is there one that lays out all the bones we can and can't feed our dogs?

I've been giving Aya raw chicken leg pieces and some raw fish eg bass, sardines(not tinned). But want to move her on to other meat.

This website: https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/recreational-bones-for-dogs/

Says weight bearing is on (it does mention the risks later on though).

I thought weight bearing was out. I have a lamb leg that was given to me by a butcher for free for Aya. Can I give it?

What are marrow bones? I've read they can eat them. Neck top of various animals including beef!

I need a list of each animals bones with a yes or no basically lol.


----------



## lorilu

TennoAkita said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Similar to the picture above, is there one that lays out all the bones we can and can't feed our dogs?
> 
> I've been giving Aya raw chicken leg pieces and some raw fish eg bass, sardines(not tinned). But want to move her on to other meat.
> 
> This website: https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/recreational-bones-for-dogs/
> 
> Says weight bearing is on (it does mention the risks later on though).
> 
> I thought weight bearing was out. I have a lamb leg that was given to me by a butcher for free for Aya. Can I give it?
> 
> What are marrow bones? I've read they can eat them. Neck top of various animals including beef!
> 
> I need a list of each animals bones with a yes or no basically lol.


This might help, scroll down for the yeses and nos:
https://healthypets.mercola.com/sit...ll-your-dog-find-out-which-ones-are-safe.aspx

Here's another you might find useful

https://perfectlyrawsome.com/raw-feeding-classifications/safe-edible-raw-meaty-bone-guide/


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## TennoAkita

lorilu said:


> This might help, scroll down for the yeses and nos:
> https://healthypets.mercola.com/sit...ll-your-dog-find-out-which-ones-are-safe.aspx
> 
> Here's another you might find useful
> 
> https://perfectlyrawsome.com/raw-feeding-classifications/safe-edible-raw-meaty-bone-guide/


Thank you for that.

So what about lambs leg bone? Class it as any weight bearing bone?


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## niamh123

I do


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## TennoAkita

niamh123 said:


> I do


Does yours devour the whole bone or do you take it away at some point?


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## niamh123

Eat all the bone


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## lee smithurst

iv recently got a 3 year old male staff, that has been on a block of chicken and tripe a day, then kibble to nibble on through the day(kept his existing diet). after reading through this thread and abit online, I see the kibble isn't really necessary if there getting enough raw? 

but iv also got a 6 year old staff that im wanting to move onto raw also, for convenience feeding the blocks of meat is great, but also after reading more I realise it isn't just about the meat?

is feeding just blocks of meat okay? or is the balance of bone etc what make the raw diet so special?


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## niamh123

It depends if the blocks of meat your feeding has bone added a lot of them do


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## lee smithurst

niamh123 said:


> It depends if the blocks of meat your feeding has bone added a lot of them do


good point ill ask next time i fetch it, its bulmers i think


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## lee smithurst

niamh123 said:


> It depends if the blocks of meat your feeding has bone added a lot of them do


looking online, it says it has, so does that mean its okay? can i sack the kibble off?


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## niamh123

Yes no need for kibble,the rule of thumb is 10% of puppys weight should be fed and 2-3% of adults body weight should be fed,my dogs have a great body condition but I need to feed more than is recommended to keep them looking good,Sally is 26kg if I fed her 2% of body weight she would be having 520g per day.To keep her looking good I feed her 454g in morning and about 400-450g at night but all 3 get loads of off lead runs this may have something to do with them all needing higher food amounts


----------



## lee smithurst

niamh123 said:


> Yes no need for kibble,the rule of thumb is 10% of puppys weight should be fed and 2-3% of adults body weight should be fed,my dogs have a great body condition but I need to feed more than is recommended to keep them looking good,Sally is 26kg if I fed her 2% of body weight she would be having 520g per day.To keep her looking good I feed her 454g in morning and about 400-450g at night but all 3 get loads of off lead runs this may have something to do with them all needing higher food amounts


 okay, thankyou

the blocks are around 400-450g, and hes 27kg so thats okay twice a day, mine also gets lots of running!

would you say to vary the meat? or is sticking to one okay?


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## niamh123

I would start with one meat type as long as they are okay with it then introduce another and so on,if there is no offal added to the blocks you can add small amounts of liver to start with and increasing to about 10% of their meal


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## lee smithurst

niamh123 said:


> I would start with one meat type as long as they are okay with it then introduce another and so on,if there is no offal added to the blocks you can add small amounts of liver to start with and increasing to about 10% of their meal


maybe a silly question but how would you work out its 10%?

400g block with 40g liver?


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## lee smithurst

lee smithurst said:


> maybe a silly question but how would you work out its 10%?
> 
> 400g block with 40g liver?


also what the offal for?


----------



## niamh123

Yes that's right but as I said start off with tiny amounts
I also feed raw eggs,natural yoghurt and natural cheese mine also love raw carrot,bananas and apples
The offal has loads of nutrients in it that the meat does not,I also feed green tripe which again has loads of nutrients in it the dogs love it but it is a bit smelly


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## JessandJackson_x

I raid the meat reductions as M&S and Waitrose as they usually are quite generous in size and not packed with water - and they also do a lot of game. A typical week for Jackson is scrambled or raw egg, carrots, broccoli, bananas (good in a kong, spend hours trying to lick out), spinige (in proportion and I get the frozen cubes), turkey mince, chicken wings, chicken fillets, stewing steak... I stock up on brown rice, big bags of mixed veg and frozen white fish. One type of offal twice a week as it's quite rich and I note he gets the runs quite easily.
He's had his first raw bone from the posh pet shop the other day and it was small but he loved it but bought most of it back up in the night so I am going to wait a bit until he's 8 months.
I spend probably 20 quid a week doing all that and I feel it's cheaper than pet shop frozen raw and probably still as healthy.


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## lee smithurst

iv just started my older dog on raw, and it just doesnt seem much food! shes 20kg so around 5/600g a day.. im alternating blocks of chicken and tripe every day and going to start adding liver slowly too! 

only been doing it a couple of days so cant see any change, but just looks very little in her bowl.. specially when my other dogs get a 2blocks of meat a day


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## niamh123

Puppies need a lot more food than older dogs,keep an eye on your older dogs body condition if you think she looks like she is losing weight up her food that's the joy of feeding raw you feed to your dogs body condition,my 3 have more than what is recommended as the 2-3% makes them look on the lean side


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## lee smithurst

niamh123 said:


> Puppies need a lot more food than older dogs,keep an eye on your older dogs body condition if you think she looks like she is losing weight up her food that's the joy of feeding raw you feed to your dogs body condition,my 3 have more than what is recommended as the 2-3% makes them look on the lean side


yeah she is fairly lean already.. also iv been splitting it into 2 meals,maybe ill just just give her one meal a day


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## niamh123

I would stick with 2 meals a day but just give her a little extra maybe a chicken wing added


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## lee smithurst

niamh123 said:


> I would stick with 2 meals a day but just give her a little extra maybe a chicken wing added


just chuck it in with the bones?


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## niamh123

Put it in with the meat blocks


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## lee smithurst

niamh123 said:


> Put it in with the meat blocks


do you just mash it all togetger? may put a egg in there aswell? fill it out abit


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## niamh123

Yes just put in what you want to feed for that meal for examplw tonight Sally has had
meat block
Raw egg and shell 
some pork no bone
and 2 chicken wings


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## lee smithurst

niamh123 said:


> Yes just put in what you want to feed for that meal for examplw tonight Sally has had
> meat block
> Raw egg and shell
> some pork no bone
> and 2 chicken wings


okay thankyou, ill stock up on chicken wings to bulk her food out


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## lee smithurst

what are the rules as far as bones and a choking hazard?


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## Rebecca F

Very interesting read


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## JessandJackson_x

Google Bruno's Dinner in Crawley - neat little find and great prices. Going to take a drive down there this weekend.


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## slacky

hey guys

looking for abit of advice concerning feeding my dog raw meat. He's 18 months old and been on raw meat ever since he was born. Roughly when he turned 1 he started stratching quite bad and red rashes started appearing. Been to the vets numerous times did the usual checks but nothing came back. I was speaking to one of my neighbours and he's had a similar situation in his dog who's on raw meat and it turns out its the bacteria on the meat. He's changed his dog to biscuits now and its seemed to have sorted the problem. If I'm honest i don't really want to change to biscuits id rather keep him on raw meat. Has any one had this problem before any advice would be appreciated


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## niamh123

What breed of dog do you have,as long as your meat has been kept in the fridge and not out of date I doubt it's bacteria on the meat,he may be allergic to one of the meats you are feeding but since it only started 6 months ago I also doubt this,has he been having something different in the last 6 months


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## slacky

niamh123 said:


> What breed of dog do you have,as long as your meat has been kept in the fridge and not out of date I doubt it's bacteria on the meat,he may be allergic to one of the meats you are feeding but since it only started 6 months ago I also doubt this,has he been having something different in the last 6 months


He's a staff. It's kept in the freezer then removed to defrost before giving it to him. He's been on exactly the same type of food and from the same supplier every since we got him 18 months ago. When I took him to the vets a while ago they said the Alergies tend to show when they turn 1


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## niamh123

My breed also suffer with allergies,he could be allergic to anything my old boy Trav had loads of allergies grass was one of them,you could try tryig one meat protein at a time say chicken for 10 days if he's okay with that them try another meat this way you should be able to see if it is a meat source which he has allergies with.I always keep antihistamines in the house you can buy these yourself from the chemist don't bother going for an expensive one a generic version is fine


----------



## Laura C

Hi, 
I'm very new to raw feeding (on week 2) I just want to make sure I'm doing it right as there's so many conflicting things over the internet about what you should and shouldn't be doing. Below are the items I feed my dog but I only balance over time not daily. Is this correct? Am I right in thinking I don't need to give him bones and offal every day?

At the moment he has the following thing;
chicken mince
beef mince
sardines
sprats
Eggs + shells
duck wings 
Veg; cucumber, celery, carrots, broccoli, cauliflower, green beans
Sweet Potatoes
Liver chunks
chicken hearts
Will be introducing tripe next week.

However, I only give egg 2-3 times a week, fish twice a week, Bone twice a week, liver chunks twice a week, chicken hearts twice a week, veg 3 times a week and sweet potatoes twice a week. I will alternate different meals each day but sticking to these guidelines and having them with either chicken mince or beef mince or sometimes with half and half of each.

Is this ok or is there anything that I should be adding or anything that I should be increasing?


----------



## niamh123

You should be giving offal everyday start out with tiny amounts and work up to 10% of your dogs meal,my 3 have bones everyday again around 10% of their meal,


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## Baldyegghead

niamh123 said:


> My breed also suffer with allergies,he could be allergic to anything my old boy Trav had loads of allergies grass was one of them,you could try tryig one meat protein at a time say chicken for 10 days if he's okay with that them try another meat this way you should be able to see if it is a meat source which he has allergies with.I always keep antihistamines in the house you can buy these yourself from the chemist don't bother going for an expensive one a generic version is fine


What are the anti histamines please, especially the generic name. Thanks


----------



## niamh123

Just go to a chemist and ask for their own make antihistamines,but don't say it's for your dog or they won't sell them to you


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## doglover4755

awesome posts! great info thanks!


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## Guest

I would always fully endorse a raw food diet .. My two have been raw fed for the past 7 years or so mostly using complete raw foods such as Wolftucker, Nutriment or Natural Instinct. I have tried DIY but I prefer knowing I have everything they need and balanced worked out for me. Just thaw and serve.


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## niamh123

I have found a great new supplier The dogs butcher


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## Tyrone Simkins

It's really amazing conversion and here I got lots of information that exactly help me. Thanks a lot for sharing these knowledge. Actually I'm new here I learn much more things from here.


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## DamKri

Amazing !


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## Tyrone Simkins

I have a question for you which is the best food for health dog? If you have much more idea and knowledge then you can share with me. Actually I'm newbie in here and for knowing lots of useful information I was came. So hopefully it'll be better for me if you share with me some tips and tricks. Advance Thanks.


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## ricky2

Thanks


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## Torin.

niamh123 said:


> I have found a great new supplier The dogs butcher


I love TDB


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## Guest

Great Post! Good to get the knowledge out there that raw feeding really is best (my opinion) and to educate owners on the benefits both health and cost. It's what i recommend to my clients as i find:

1. It's better health wise overall.
2. Dogs respond much better behavioural wise because they aren't crammed full of sugary carbs,
3. A fuller dog is a happier dog and who listens to training easier.

I usually recommend every 10kg 200-400g of raw meat or meaty bones fed twice a day, 2 x fish meals a week to help with possible constipation (tuna in sunflower oil) and always have blended raw leafy green veg with the meat.

Now i know the first concern of my clients is "IT'S RAW" Now yes that's true but if you handle it like you would raw meat for yourself and cleanliness. Plus i'm a vegetarian but i feed raw as i understand and believe it's the best way to feed our canine friends...It's their natural diet and as much as pet food companies will tell you different, they may look different to wolves but their insides work the same.


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## Guest

Oh and very well done on the book recommendations. "Raw meaty bones" is a excellent book to get started with


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## Diane J

Help. I need concrete information from someone experienced with switching 8 week old kibble-weaned puppies to raw feeding successfully.

I’m an experienced raw feeder, having fed 7 dogs raw over the past 16 years, but I’ve only switched adult rescues to raw feeding. On Sunday, my husband and I bought a purebred GSD puppy and on Monday we switched him to raw following my choices of all of the recommendations for doing so I’d read, some of which were very contradictory of each other.

He has not done well with chewing up the bones. I initially tried a chicken back cut into small pieces and mashing the bones with a meat tenderizer a little to attempt to soften them. Then I switched to chicken necks, but he swallowed some of those whole, and does that a bit with smaller pieces of it too, after minimal chewing.

He had diarrhea followed by constipation and developing a temporary anorexia. He’s been eating softer cooked food today, but didn’t eat much when I tried again with raw. My husband and I are lost and confused and need help from someone experienced in switching 8 week old kibble-weaned puppies to raw food.

Btw, your links to those raw feeding groups on Yahoo are no longer valid, those groups apparently have closed, sad to say. 

Thank you in advance,
~Diane


----------



## O2.0

Diane J said:


> Help. I need concrete information from someone experienced with switching 8 week old kibble-weaned puppies to raw feeding successfully.
> 
> I'm an experienced raw feeder, having fed 7 dogs raw over the past 16 years, but I've only switched adult rescues to raw feeding. On Sunday, my husband and I bought a purebred GSD puppy and on Monday we switched him to raw following my choices of all of the recommendations for doing so I'd read, some of which were very contradictory of each other.
> 
> He has not done well with chewing up the bones. I initially tried a chicken back cut into small pieces and mashing the bones with a meat tenderizer a little to attempt to soften them. Then I switched to chicken necks, but he swallowed some of those whole, and does that a bit with smaller pieces of it too, after minimal chewing.
> 
> He had diarrhea followed by constipation and developing a temporary anorexia. He's been eating softer cooked food today, but didn't eat much when I tried again with raw. My husband and I are lost and confused and need help from someone experienced in switching 8 week old kibble-weaned puppies to raw food.
> 
> Btw, your links to those raw feeding groups on Yahoo are no longer valid, those groups apparently have closed, sad to say.
> 
> Thank you in advance,
> ~Diane


Hi Diane, 
Generally it's not recommended to switch the puppy's food right away. He's had major upheaval in his life right now, and changing his food on top of everything else is probably too much for him to handle. 
Did the breeder not give you some of what he was already eating for him to eat the first few weeks? Then gradually switch him over to raw.


----------



## Diane J

O2.0 said:


> Hi Diane,
> Generally it's not recommended to switch the puppy's food right away. He's had major upheaval in his life right now, and changing his food on top of everything else is probably too much for him to handle.
> Did the breeder not give you some of what he was already eating for him to eat the first few weeks? Then gradually switch him over to raw.


Yes, he did, and I've seen recommendations for an immediate switch and for a switch over 4 days. Since he'd done quite a bit of pooping and refused his kibble at breakfast, we decided to go for the cold switch figuring his digestive tract should be free enough of kibble to do so. He ate it very avidly, tucked right in. He does the same now with cooked chicken, so we've decided to go for now with a gradual change over the next couple of days from cooked to raw, cooking chicken thighs and removing the bones, and cooking them less and less.

What we're wondering now is what to do about getting him to safely eating the chicken necks and backs at this age, and what other meaty bones can his little teeth chew? Do we worry so much about bones, or is the meat more important right now? Do we need to get a meat grinder and give him ground meat with his veggies and other foods mixed in? It's too late at this point to debate the wisdom of the cold switch, done is done and I'll do anything but give him kibble again now as he hasn't eaten it in a few days and his stool is finally looking normal.


----------



## niamh123

I have always done a straight switch with my puppies starting off with premade blocks for pups I use naturediet block's I also offer them chicken wings I split the skin in a couple of places as the skin can be quite tough for puppies but I always hold the end of the wing to stop them swallowing them whole as for your pup swallowing the chicken necks whole again I would hold the end as they are small I find the Duck necks are better as they are bigger and your pup will learn to chew half of a duck neck should be enough for your puppy freeze the rest for another day.He isn't going to learn to chew if you are cutting his food up,the meat and bone are both important I wouldn't offer him raw egg right now but my puppies always loved egg shells which is full of calcium another good food is green tripe full of nutrients and easy on the tummy you could feed tripe with a chicken wing.Until he has his chewing sorted I wouldn't feed any chicken backs and when you do start I would just chop them in half,
I have never had a problem with any of my pups doing a straight switch and I always advise people to go cold turkey when starting a pup on raw,I would get him some blocks and use these as a starting point,as he had had an upset tum I would get some Yakult and offer him half a pot everyday.good luck


----------



## Diane J

Thank you Naimh, I truly appreciate this advice! Holding the chicken necks is a great idea! I have no idea where I'd get duck necks, but I can get turkey necks easily enough (when he gets older, I don't think I'll try those just yet). This is the first truly good advice I've gotten so far. Oh, and I don't think I can get Yakult here, but kefir would work, right?


----------



## niamh123

Where are you based 
Yes Kefir is fine it's what I use for my dogs
You could try Turkey necks but as he's new to chewing I would bash them up a little,
Your pup was probably constipated as he had way too much bone try and stick to the 10-15% bone that's why I mentioned the premade blocks as you don't have to worry abut the bone content,and when you feed the necks or wings you will need to add some muscle meat as they are very boney


----------



## Diane J

I'm in PA, just outside of Pittsburgh.  Premade mixes here are expensive and out of our budget right now, and everything I read said at this age he should be able to eat the bones. However, he keeps getting constipated on them. Switching to cooked food for now got him unblocked, along with pumpkin pie mix, and he's rejecting the raw food. After a few days of cooking meat less, I'll attempt the chicken necks again and try your suggestion of wings too, adding muscle meat, and holding one end so he has to chew them more, that's a really good idea!


----------



## niamh123

Muscle meat with a small amount of bone should work fine or if you know someone with a heavy duty grinder that could do the trick


----------



## Diane J

Yep, we're going to buy one of those this week before we start bones again. We've just really slowed down the process and learned some lessons, and at least the little guy wasn't harmed. He's very resilient and just a very happy little guy.


----------



## Abbas

I have a german shepard 4months old and he is suffering from viral infection his stool is of dark colour i went to the vet he gave him injections of antibiotics for.continious 3.days but still.his symptoms are same and he was not eating i gave him infacol and in the night i fed him some.dogfood but after two days now he is again not eating anything any suggestion what can i do


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## David Smith

Helpful thread! Thank you!


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## wee man

Our last puppy that we bought was a kibble fed puppy, I changed her over to an all meat diet within 2 days. There were no problems at all she just continued enjoying her new type of food, her poo's changed instantly and were nice and firm (as you would expect). Her condition improved quickly and her coat began to shine. She was introduced to bones as soon as the next lot arrived, (usually once a week), an assortment of chicken, pork, lamb or beef.
I have never used complete raw diets as it would be too expensive, neither is it natural to feed completely balanced meals every day. Complete raw diets are excellent for peace of mind, although if you are able to use a good variety of meat types a, including fat, gristle, offal and bones over a period of a few weeks, then this will create the balanced diet that our dogs need.
Our puppy was eating the same as our adult dogs, and learnt how to eat bones safely without any problems straight away. Bones were always big so that she couldn't swallow any of them whole while she was learning (I certainly would not chop bones up small or try to crush them either ! ) 
The change over is very easy, and quiet safe. I have fed raw for 35 to 40 years and weaned puppies onto raw diets too, with bones starting at 4.5 weeks.
White chalky poo can be corrected quiet quickly by adding more meat content. Our lot quiet often have chalky poo's for a few days depending on how many bones they are given. ( it does them no harm)

Enjoy your puppy and his new diet, you will all be fine.


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## petokulu

very nice information thanks


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## RonnieC

Quick question, I'm going to start feeding raw at the end of this month and doing my order today. Per BARF guidelines I'm going to start him on tripe but I'm not sure he's going to like it. I remember giving him a tripe mix wet food once and he completely refused it. If he doesn't like it can I just jump to week two? Chicken mince ect.


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## wee man

My answer would be yes, absolutely.
Not everyone starts with tripe, some will start with chicken. There are always guidelines for so many ways of feeding. Introducing raw products is much easier than the dry foods and with less problems.
I hope your chap learns to enjoy his raw meals, it is a lovely product.

Just out of interest, what brand/make of raw product will you be ordering ?


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## RonnieC

wee man said:


> My answer would be yes, absolutely.
> Not everyone starts with tripe, some will start with chicken. There are always guidelines for so many ways of feeding. Introducing raw products is much easier than the dry foods and with less problems.
> I hope your chap learns to enjoy his raw meals, it is a lovely product.
> 
> Just out of interest, what brand/make of raw product will you be ordering ?


Thanks! Was going to order from natural instinct for this first month but then was enlightened to a store not far from us that stocks everything and more so will be popping down there tomorrow with him and will buy just one pack of tripe to see if he'll have it. They use the dogs butcher I believe.


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## Bentley's Dad

I struggled at first when I made the switch to raw but I'm happy to say feeding prey, much like the original author of this thread, has turned out to be the best, healthiest method of raw feeding for my 18 month old dachshund.
He didn't much care for anything commercial. Raw or kibble. I've come to largely trust his instincts when it comes to learning to feed raw/prey.
Same with how much to feed actually. I've found he guides me in how much to feed. While he's actually gained a lb. or so, he's not overweight. 
Due to his dislike for any kibble, I started mixing cooked meat with it at first. From the time I got him at 4 months old. 
I finally went 100% prey shortly after he turned 1. 
I buy mostly from the grocery store and meat market for a few specislty things like his chicken feet for treats and 12lbs.of lamb liver I cut up and packaged for the freezer. 
He doesn't necessarily get a balanced diet every meal or everyday but I think I do an adequate job of getting it pretty close over the course of a week or even 2.
Chicken, turkey, beef, and lamb for variety. He loves turkey wings! I break them into 3 sections. He devours the tip in no time. 
I worry some about the bones still but he chews them pretty good. Same with chicken feet. He'll crunch them up for 10 or 15 minutes then swallow them whole.
Probably the hardest part was getting him to eat any fish. But he's finally started eating salmon fillets. I've heard bad things about fish oil being ransid so I refrained from that. He won't eat eggs unless it's part of my loaded omlet biscuit tho. 
As you can see he's a healthy red, longhaired dachshund with a beatiful coat.


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## wee man

Well done you @Bentley's Dad
What a lucky and lovely chap Bentley is.


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## Bentley's Dad

wee man said:


> Well done you @Bentley's Dad
> What a lucky and lovely chap Bentley is.


Looks like you've got a few good looking longhairs there yourself.


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## wee man

Working type Cocker Spaniels !!


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## RonnieC

Quick question, I messed up my order! Accidentally purchased chicken complete mince and turkey complete mince which I know I can't give yet so I've got chicken breasts for week 2 to feed 1/4 chicken & 3/4 tripe but for week 3 am I good to use chicken thighs for bone content? Sorry if sounds like daft question.


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## wee man

Yes chicken thighs will be fine, wings are ok and necks too and the carcass.


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## lee smithurst

hello, iv been feeding my dog raw for a couple of years now, and its the best thing iv done! iv been feeding the the bulmer blocks for convenience, i wonder if anyone has used the southcliffe brand? and if so how is it


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## Deanna Grinnel

It looks a great story...


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## Little-moomin

Would raw chicken/ lamb/ beef mince, an egg, a few sardines, some raw chicken wings (other bones when puppy is older), some carrot, apple and broccoli be a good place to start with raw feeding?


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## niamh123

Yes but you need to feed around 10% bone


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## RonnieC

Back again, hoping someone on here can help! 
During the summer when I kibble fed my boy had a sudden upset tum and was pooping blood. Took him to the vet and they didn't really give an explanation, passed me some antibiotics and told me to put him on a bland diet for a week. 
Today he pooped jelly like blood again and after some research I realise it's probably colitis. 

I've put him on boiled chicken/cod and rice tonight and will continue to do so for the next few days. Just wondering how I go about feeding raw again afterwards. 

He's been on beef mince and chicken wings since last Tuesday and not had any problems until today. Been researching low fat meats so I know what would be best to put him on but wondering how I can work that in while following a guide that says beef/chicken this week and duck /beef week after. 

I'm slightly confused on what to do and I did a shop for two months so I've got plenty of beef mince, duck wings, chicken wings, chicken hearts and completes of all the above to move onto afterwards :Arghh


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## Little-moomin

Hi guys! I am thinking of going raw for Apollo. I have read up on raw feeding and given that is weighing in at 33kg he should be getting about 660 to 990g per day.

I also know that generally the meal should be 80:10:10 - meat, organs bones.

If it is affordable for me to do so, I will look at doing it myself.

What I wanted to know is, if I feed him 1 meal per day, lets say at 750g so between 2-3% of his body weight, that includes everything above, correct? I was going to buy some mince, some duck, chicken and turkey necks/ wings etc and then some offal (probably a little bit of liver, kidney etc) and then occasionally add a bit of frozen fish or an egg, and probably add a little carrot or spinach and some apple daily. 

I am hoping long term this will save us money and help him as he seems to have a bit of on and off loose stools and smelly farts!


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## niamh123

I buy Durham mince for my 3 it has everything in it that Appollo needs 80/10/10 I buy a box of chicken for £10.45 the box contains 14 packs of 454g.My boys are doing really well on it they also get some fruit and veggies but it's whatever I have handy


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## Marty McFly

Hiya all, could I get some advice please? Apologies if long.

My lab is 2 and a half and we’ve had him almost a year. He came to us having been fed on a mixture of raw chicken carcasses and kibble.

Found a really good place specialising in raw feeding near me so took him there for their advice. Very helpful and over a period of a month or so he was onto the full raw diet, packets of DAF mince.

Had no real issues with it. He seems to love it, he eats the full range of stuff he needs to and he looks great for it!

However, a few months after we got him I was telling a friend of mine about his diet and explaining the stuff I’d been told he needed for a balanced diet ie bone, red meat, tripe, oily fish and offal. My friend then said “Where’s his fibre coming from?”

It struck me that he hadn’t really been getting a source of fibre as such. I was unsure whether he was supposed to be. So I went back to the feeding placed and asked them. Despite them being fairly knowledgeable about the raw diet, they didn’t seem to really answer my question about whether he NEEDS a specific fibre source, or whether the diet he’s on gives him all he needs. In the end, the woman there said I could mix Chia seeds into his food once a day.

I read up on them and they’re an excellent source of fibre so since then I’ve been giving him a teaspoonful a day.

But I just wanted to check.....am I doing enough in terms of fibre for him?! Should I be trying to add more stuff to his meals? I was reading that adding carrot, kale and apple is a good idea. Should I do this as well as the chia seeds?!

As said, he has no problems at all. He loves his food and is very healthy. I’d just hate to discover years down the line that he’s developed problems because he hasn’t been getting enough fibre.

Any thoughts/advice most welcome.

PS. Sorry if this sort of thing has been discussed loads on this thread already. At 95 pages I didn’t fancy my chances of reading it all!!!


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## niamh123

I have fed raw for 16 years now,I have never added fibre to my dogs diet they are fed raw with some fruit and veggies but not everyday .They have all been very healthy on their raw diets


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## wee man

I have used raw for up to 40 years, I have never fed daily complete mixes, just a good varied selection of meats, offal, bones, with veg whenever any leftovers are available or when preparing veg for ourselves. They will get over ripe fruit and in the spring I will go and collect new season herbs some of which would be , nettle tops, goose grass/cleavers, dandelions, hog weed.
A raw diet balances itself naturally over time / a couple of weeks or so, therefore you do not need to be exact every day. 
Hard poos are *very* normal, they can be overcome by giving a little less bone content and replacing with a little more meat.

Sensible household scraps are fine to use as part of the daily rations.

I always suggest than anyone who is interested in the raw feeding, that they purchase a little book " Honey's Natural Feeding Handbook for Dogs", this can be purchased on Amazon for as little as 1p (as good as new).
A very knowledgeable little book which is easy to read and understand, with contact details if required.
The book is useful for both long time users and newbees wanting help and advice.
.


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## Peter.d.

Hi just after a bit of advice please. I have an 8 month old Border Terrier (Bailey). He was off his food but I have tried him on raw for the last 3 days and he has been eating it well apart from the Duck. He suffered from bilious vomiting when he was a bit younger so I have him on 3 meals a day. I give him plain scrambled eggs in the morning about 9am some veggies as treats then a 110g potion of raw at 3PM and another about 9.30pm does this sound ok. Any advice tips etc are greatly appreciated we are new to the raw diet.


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## wee man

That sounds like plenty to me and you are varying his meat types too.
Don't forget to offer some raw bones (chicken bones are fine) and can be counted as part of daily rations with plenty of goodness and food value too.
I hope your chap continues to enjoy his new raw product.
Best wishes and enjoy.


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## Peter.d.

The shop we bought it from gave us a good selection, He loves the lamb and beef but doesn't like the duck. We are trying him on chicken,beef and offal today. He doesn't seen sure about the bones we have tried him but he barks at them and pounces around them.


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## sar79

Peter.d. said:


> The shop we bought it from gave us a good selection, He loves the lamb and beef but doesn't like the duck. We are trying him on chicken,beef and offal today. He doesn't seen sure about the bones we have tried him but he barks at them and pounces around them.


My youngest doesn't like duck either!! What bones have you tried?


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## Peter.d.

It just says Thistle brand mixed bones.


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## Kned

Hi this is my first post, sorry if this has already been discussed but there are too many messages to scroll through. We started our 14 week old cockapoo on a raw diet last week. We get the food already made up from our vets. He loves the food but prior to this, when on tinned puppy food, he was sleeping in his crate from 10pm until almost 6am without us having to get up to him in the night. Since being on a raw diet, he’s waking at around 3am and needs a poo. The first couple of times he did this we ignored him and he soiled his crate. We feed him half at lunch time at around 1.00 and then the other half at around 6.00. Has anyone else experienced this and has anyone got any advice that may help his sleep pattern to get back to what it was? Thank you


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## Peter.d.

I know our dog is a bit older he is 8 months old, we have had him on raw for about a month. It was a struggle at first finding which ones he liked. We feed him a small breakfast he has egg in the morning around 9 am, some fruit and carrot around 12 then we split his raw into 2 meals 1 at 3 pm and his last meal at 10pm he only does 2 poos a day we feed him little and often as when he was younger he started vomiting in the mornings after having his last meal at 8 pm. I know it may be a bit off what you have asked but it's a routine that works with mine.


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## Kned

Peter.d. said:


> I know our dog is a bit older he is 8 months old, we have had him on raw for about a month. It was a struggle at first finding which ones he liked. We feed him a small breakfast he has egg in the morning around 9 am, some fruit and carrot around 12 then we split his raw into 2 meals 1 at 3 pm and his last meal at 10pm he only does 2 poos a day we feed him little and often as when he was younger he started vomiting in the mornings after having his last meal at 8 pm. I know it may be a bit off what you have asked but it's a routine that works with mine.


Thanks for your reply. We give him some veg in the morning at about 8, he has half of his 150g portion of raw food (which has been premixed by his vet) at about 1.00 after his lunchtime walk and then the other half at about 6. He then has another walk at 7.00. We then play with him and put him in the back garden for about 15 mins before bed time to give him the chance to relieve himself. Do you think it's worth pushing his tea time feed back until later then?


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## Nonnie

Kned said:


> Hi this is my first post, sorry if this has already been discussed but there are too many messages to scroll through. We started our 14 week old cockapoo on a raw diet last week. We get the food already made up from our vets. He loves the food but prior to this, when on tinned puppy food, he was sleeping in his crate from 10pm until almost 6am without us having to get up to him in the night. Since being on a raw diet, he's waking at around 3am and needs a poo. The first couple of times he did this we ignored him and he soiled his crate. We feed him half at lunch time at around 1.00 and then the other half at around 6.00. Has anyone else experienced this and has anyone got any advice that may help his sleep pattern to get back to what it was? Thank you


At 14 weeks he really should be on three decent meals a day. Veg is not a decent meal.

Id suggest dividing his daily amount into three, and feeding at well spaced intervals. He is currently getting the bulk of his food in a 5 hour window, which is probably where the problem lies. All that food going through his system in a short space of time.


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## Peter.d.

I give mine either scrambled egg or some porridge with goats milk on for breakfast around 9am he loves it. Then veggies and or fruit for around 12 as a snack. And 1/2 his raw at 3 and the other 1/2 at 10pm we walk him usually between 7pm and 9pm I would try his evening meal later on from what I have read and heard they digest raw quicker than other foods so it may give you a couple of extra hours during the night. We get our raw from a local dedicated shop non of the vets around my area recommend raw they say they need worming alot more often and because of the salmonella risk. But with good hygiene etc mine has been fine. Mine is wormed monthly and has been since we got him we have had no problems. (Mine is on 230g per day 3% of his body weight).


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## Kned

Peter.d. said:


> I give mine either scrambled egg or some porridge with goats milk on for breakfast around 9am he loves it. Then veggies and or fruit for around 12 as a snack. And 1/2 his raw at 3 and the other 1/2 at 10pm we walk him usually between 7pm and 9pm I would try his evening meal later on from what I have read and heard they digest raw quicker than other foods so it may give you a couple of extra hours during the night. We get our raw from a local dedicated shop non of the vets around my area recommend raw they say they need worming alot more often and because of the salmonella risk. But with good hygiene etc mine has been fine. Mine is wormed monthly and has been since we got him we have had no problems. (Mine is on 230g per day 3% of his body weight).


This is really helpful thank you. It's a minefield isn't it! He was doing fine on his tinned puppy food but we were really keen to get him on to a raw diet. Our local vet is a very small independent and is a great advocate for the raw diet, he gave us a free sample to try him on at first. We will give this a try. Thanks very much.


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## Peter.d.

No worries, mine was on kibble when we got him so we just continued with it then he went off it and wouldn't eat wet food either so we tried raw and haven't looked back. It's just experimenting with the different flavours and finding what best suits you. We were fortunate as the local shop owner has fed raw for 40+ years and answered every question we asked and give more info aswell.


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## ThePilkingtons

Hello we’re new to the forum and have recently rescued a sheepdog puppy. She just turn 7 weeks old and she’s been on a raw diet for around a week now, and what a difference it’s made. We are currently feeding an 80-10-10 minced mixture. One day chicken and one day turkey. At what point would you start adding full meats, chicken wings and other proteins for example. I’ve read lots about veg/fruit VS no veg/fruit and want to make sure she’s get variety above all else.


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## niamh123

You can start chicken wings now at 7 weeks old she is more than able to chew the wings,I would hold the wing tip the first couple of times that she has a wing just so she doesn't swallow it whole (if she does thats fine)but she needs to learn how to chew her raw meaty bones she can also start to have chicken backs.H







ere is a pic of my young pup with a chicken back


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## Peter.d.

Our Border is 17 month old now, He loves every piece of raw we have given him. We give him 3 70g meals a day with some frozen veg mixed in and a sprat in between each meal. We mix between the 80-10-10 and straight beef or other meats. He looks really good for it when you compare him to other border terriers we see when we are walking him he is muscular and slim.


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## niamh123

So pleased your Border Terrier is doing so well on a Raw diet


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## kats56

Hi I have recently got a beautiful Sprocker pup, he is now 20 weeks old and weighs about 13kg. He is currently on Millies Wolfheart kibble and I supplement with egg, chicken/turkey and fish. He is doing well but as I fed my previous dog (a Labrador) and knowing the benefits of raw I would like to introduce him to it. A couple of questions (as I have forgotten some of the info from when I fed my previous dog raw), When calculating how much to feed daily do I use my pups current weight or his expected adult weight? Also as we have retired now we tend to be away in our caravan for about 6 months of the year and would find it difficult to keep raw feeding during that time, is it ok to give a high protein kibble while away? (we did this previously but we weren't away as much before we retired)
This forum is a fantastic source of information and is always the first place I turn to when I need any info.


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## wee man

Hello,
We have the working type Cocker spaniels x 7.
They are all raw fed, I also use Millies Wolfheart for stand by and emergencies. It is a wonderful kibble with so many protein choices and flavour choices.
As I use raw for our lot (an allowance of 1/2 lb each day), I only use the 40/60 mixes that Millies make. These can be fed as a whole meal (if I forget to thaw anything) without any slow introductions and without any upset tummies.
If I were to go away on holiday I would happily use Millies kibble even though their usually on raw diet.

I have never calculated how much each of my dogs should have but I just feed by looks and what weight they are carrying. The 1/2 lb seems to suit them all quiet well .
I would be quiet happy to use the Millies while away on holiday. You could always add some raw or chicken wings when convenient while away, the two products seem to work quiet well together too.

.


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## kats56

wee man said:


> Hello,
> We have the working type Cocker spaniels x 7.
> They are all raw fed, I also use Millies Wolfheart for stand by and emergencies. It is a wonderful kibble with so many protein choices and flavour choices.
> As I use raw for our lot (an allowance of 1/2 lb each day), I only use the 40/60 mixes that Millies make. These can be fed as a whole meal (if I forget to thaw anything) without any slow introductions and without any upset tummies.
> If I were to go away on holiday I would happily use Millies kibble even though their usually on raw diet.
> 
> I have never calculated how much each of my dogs should have but I just feed by looks and what weight they are carrying. The 1/2 lb seems to suit them all quiet well .
> I would be quiet happy to use the Millies while away on holiday. You could always add some raw or chicken wings when convenient while away, the two products seem to work quiet well together too.
> 
> .


Thanks for replying, that is really good to hear. If you added some raw to their daily allowance would you feed raw in the AM or PM? I understand you need to allow 6 hours in between. x


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## wee man

There is no need to feed the meat and kibble at separate times, it causes no problems when fed together (no different to adding some mixer biscuit) and that does not cause any problems!

Enjoy.


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## BICCUS1

Any help starting frozen completes fish ones 4.5kg 2.5 year old Bichon ?


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## kats56

Hi I've just transitioned my 14month old sprocker on to a raw diet, I've been using Natures menu and Daf to begin with. I previously fed my last dog (labrador) raw and did it myself however I'm finding the completes more convenient now that I don't have much freezer space and I can buy weekly from the local pet shop. My question is when I am giving my boy a bone does the weight of the whole bone contribute to the daily food allowance? I hope I'm making sense lol Maybe I'm overthinking it too much, I used to know everything about feeding raw but it's a few years since I last did it.


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## wee man

Yes I include it as daily food intake. Unless it's a very hard weight bearing bone which is difficult to consume or un-eaten, it has good food value and can be completely digested.
You will soon realize which bones are not consumed and are left laying around. I sometimes just leave these for the dogs to use at their pleasure but in the summer I tend to pick them up and throw away to avoid too many flies !

Oops, It looks as if we have just replied to an old post.


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