# Bad reaction to Advocate!



## Princess K (Apr 20, 2014)

Hi all

This is my first post on the site so I do hope I follow the right protocols! :smile:

My little Maltese - Poppet (female & 1 yr old next Friday!) - has had Advocate flea treatment a few times now - not every month but pretty often - the past 3 or 4 times, her reaction has been the same; pacing, very unsettled, slightly hyper, charging like a maniac for the first ½ hour then distant and out of sorts.

This evening she had the treatment at about 9pm and it's now 3.45am and I've had to get up with her - she's usually a great sleeper! She's also, normally, got the most friendly, loving, fun personality but this treatment changes her behaviour dramatically and she's clearly in some discomfort although there are no visible rashes on her skin and she's not sick or anything like that.

Has anyone else had similar issues with this product?

I know it is a really strong 'pesticide' but my vet seems reluctant to offer any better choices. Our groomer isn't keen on it at all and has suggested we try something more natural but I'd love to find something that gave Popper the same level of protection without the side effects.

Thanks in advance.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

It's awful stuff and if you look at the warnings, should not be used on Collie type dogs 

Alternatives 
MILBEMAX-its now licensed to prevent lungworn - Heathcote Veterinary Centre

and although not licensed for lungworm, still protects almost 
Panacur Small Animal 10% Oral Suspension - Product Data Sheet


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

My vet offered Advocate, but I didn't like the idea of using something that surely must go through the dog's whole system to work. I wonder just how it gets from the skin ( to kill fleas) to the gut ( to kill worms)?

I use Frontline ( fleas and ticks) which stays on the skin where it's put, and Drontal for worms, which specifically targets the gut.

There is an oral treatment for Lungworm, which Drontal doesn't do, but I can't remember what it's called.

Perhaps there's someone out other who has a better idea than I do of how Advocate works. I asked at my Vets about this but they didn't really know.

RONA, my post crossed with yours. Bit alarmed at the 'not used on collie type dogs' as I was recommended it by Vet, for my Border Collie. Do you know why this is??


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Its because collies can have the mdr1 gene the wrong flea treatment could off them if not careful.


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## Princess K (Apr 20, 2014)

Thank you for the replies.

After an exhausting night, I'm definitely not going to bother trying Advocate again. It's almost 12 hours since application and Poppet is still very unsettled.

I'm going to tackle my vet again and also make the manufacturer aware - I've read that this has been an issue for other dogs but there's no warning on their site at all. There are mentions of the side effects being worse for collie type dogs but not other breeds. The side effects are generally listed as sickness etc, there's nothing about it causing 'distress' and erratic behaviour. It doesn't allow for anyone to make a more considered judgement about the product.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Any adverse reactions need to be reported correctly, as it helps with the information out there available to dog owners.

I rarely worm my lot, or use flea treatments, as they show no signs of having any problems. If I do, it's usually three times maximum from spring through to autumn. I also switch products, using a mixture of drontal plus, advocate and panacur, and frontline if the product doesn't also cover for external parasites. I won't touch milbemax with a barge pole, if it's got the potential to have an effect on a collie type dog because of genetics, I simply wouldn't risk it.

I do use natural deterrents in the food I give my dogs, as they're raw fed, and I make my own minced fish and offal, I can add in things like curcumin, apple cider vinegar, garlic, mint and other natural preventatives. These also have other benefits such as promoting healthy joints. You can buy something called 'Billy no mates' which you sprinkle on their food, does the same thing.

Billy No Mates! - 300g

I hope Poppet is back to herself very soon, and welcome to the forum.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Any adverse reactions need to be reported correctly, as it helps with the information out there available to dog owners.
> 
> I rarely worm my lot, or use flea treatments, as they show no signs of having any problems. If I do, it's usually three times maximum from spring through to autumn. I also switch products, using a mixture of drontal plus, advocate and panacur, and frontline if the product doesn't also cover for external parasites. I won't touch milbemax with a barge pole, if it's got the potential to have an effect on a collie type dog because of genetics, I simply wouldn't risk it.
> 
> ...


 It's Advocate that's a risk to Collie types


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rona said:


> It's Advocate that's a risk to Collie types


I'm pretty sure it's milbemax that shouldn't be used with collie types, should be fairly easy to find out, off to google....

milbemax wormer - General Border Collie Discussion - All Border Collies Forums

Just one of lots of similar posts on collie forums.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I've been using 'Billy No Mates' on Isla these last four weeks or so. We've been is Suffolk and the Heath tends to have a fair few ticks about. I haven't found any attached (yet) but I have found some tiddlers walking about on her, one of the distinct advantage of having a light coloured dog.
I'm not inclined to use Advocate as she was very sick and had the dreaded squits after I gave it to her when she was younger. She has reacted to all the worming treatments so far, have yet to try Milbamax. The last time I gave her Drontal I felt like I was picking her off the roof she was so hyper.


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## Kchip (Jan 2, 2014)

Siskin said:


> I've been using 'Billy No Mates' on Isla these last four weeks or so. We've been is Suffolk and the Heath tends to have a fair few ticks about. I haven't found any attached (yet) but I have found some tiddlers walking about on her, one of the distinct advantage of having a light coloured dog.
> I'm not inclined to use Advocate as she was very sick and had the dreaded squits after I gave it to her when she was younger. She has reacted to all the worming treatments so far, have yet to try Milbamax. The last time I gave her Drontal I felt like I was picking her off the roof she was so hyper.


Welcome back!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm pretty sure it's milbemax that shouldn't be used with collie types, should be fairly easy to find out, off to google....
> 
> milbemax wormer - General Border Collie Discussion - All Border Collies Forums
> 
> Just one of lots of similar posts on collie forums.


But Milbemax hasn't those ingredients that are the issue has it? 
Milbemax® (milbemycin oxime, praziquantel) | Novartis Animal Health Inc. (Australia)
Milbemycin oxime and praziquantel

The problem drugs and the ones discussed on that thread are ivermectin and loperamide (Imodium)

Can you find the link between them?

I thought that milbemax was one of the safer drugs


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

rona said:


> But Milbemax hasn't those ingredients that are and issue has it?
> Milbemax® (milbemycin oxime, praziquantel) | Novartis Animal Health Inc. (Australia)
> Milbemycin oxime and praziquantel
> 
> ...


There is a list of the drugs that collies with the MDR1 gene mutation shouldn't have. Obviously if they haven't had the DNA test then you don't know if they have it or not.

LABOKLIN (UK)|Genetic Diseases | Dogs| MDR1 Gene Defect / Ivermectin Sensitivity *


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Would add that it has moxidectin and Immidacloprid in it, Moxidectin is listed as a class A do not use these drugs with MDR1 gene defect.

Advocate itself is listed as a Class C , can be used in the permitted application form and dose. Milbemax comes in that category too. However as advocates got Moxidectin in it which comes under class A I personally would be dubious.

Advocate does come with general warnings and contra indications anyway for all dogs.

The use of the product may result in transient pruritus in the animal. On rare occasions greasy fur, erythema and vomiting can occur. These signs disappear without further treatment. The product may, in rare cases cause local hypersensitivity reactions. The product may in very rare cases cause at the application site a sensation resulting in transient behavioural changes such as lethargy, agitation, and inappetence.

Full listing is below.

NOAH Compendium of Animal Medicines: Advocate Spot-on Solution - Contra-indications, warnings, etc


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

Princess K said:


> Hi all
> 
> I know it is a really strong 'pesticide' but my vet seems reluctant to offer any better choices. Our groomer isn't keen on it at all and has suggested we try something more natural but I'd love to find something that gave Popper the same level of protection without the side effects.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I have a Bichon Frise, Poppy, and Maltese are part of the same "family". I prefer natural preventatives rather than chemicals.

I did give Poppy Panacur 10% suspension for worms when I first had her as that is what the breeder had used, but I didn't give anything for fleas except once when she had an infestation following a visit to a friend's house and came home crawling with them. I gave her a bath and must have removed about 50. I did give Frontline then but that's the only time.

I give Billy No Mates tincture daily with food all year round and Four Seasons natural wormer monthly. Both Poppy and my cat get these and neither have refused food with either of them on. I also give my cat Advantage as she is an outdoor cat and I believe any fleas are brought home by her. I also spray the house once a year with RIP Fleas. I saw one flea on two occasions last year.

Is Poppet kept in a pet/puppy cut? If so then her daily grooming shouldn't be too arduous. It takes me an average of 20 minutes to brush and comb Poppy each day. Daily grooming will give you the opportunity to check for fleas and deal with them immediately. After brushing you could comb through with a flea comb, this is the one I have. Being white (or is Poppet light ivory?) they should be easy to spot.

If you see any specks of dirt in Poppet's coat, dab them with a damp tissue. If the tissue has brownish speckles then it's flea dirt so you can check thoroughly for fleas. I do that occasionally with Poppy as we are on the beach every day and her coat always has sand in it which can be mistaken for flea dirt, but whenever tested it's always just sand.

If you use the natural preventatives and a grooming regime like above then you probably wont have much of a problem. You don't have to give harsh chemicals, it's your dog-your choice not the vet's.


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## Princess K (Apr 20, 2014)

Thank you for all the info and advice - I'll digest it all and have a long, hard think in time for next month. I prefer to keep her 'treatment' up to date rather than reactive really - just personal preference! She's pure white so things are easily spotted and pretty regularly groomed.

I'm tempted to use a mixture of Panacur, Drontal/Frontline and possibly garlic from time to time too - she's not food motivated so getting her to ingest anything is hard.

She's still out of sorts and we're nearly 24 hours on - definitely giving Advocate a wide berth for her. I understand that all dogs are different so I know that what works for one is not necessarily the catch all treatment that would make our ives easier!

Hey ho, onward, ever onward - dog ownership is so much trial and error - much like parenting!

Here's a pic of Poppet today - sleeping on my hubby's legs ... she's been sleeping most of the day!


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## Yorkiemorkiemum (Jun 14, 2012)

It's definitely Advocate that shouldn't be used with Collie dogs! I raised this issue with the animal hospital after my Maltese/Yorkie took ill last year. He started showing discomfort in his neck after I used it and ended up paralysed in his rear end and was diagnosed with GME meningitis. I received an alert from the American Dogs association stating that the American version of Advocate was under investigation for inducing meningal symptoms and paralysis. Apparently Advocate kills the insect through its spinal chord or nervous system and even when I used it on my other dog and let it dry Denzil started showing symptoms if staggering and weakness. My vet has now given my dogs Frontline combo but they start showing illness symptoms after using that. Vomiting and diahorrea and Denzil has started losing fur but that could be his meds but strange that it didn't happen till I used the flea treatment! The neurologist at Leahurst told me about the problems with Collies but as I said why would it just affect Collies? Surely it's just that they poo poo any other reports?


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## Norman G (Jun 14, 2016)

Princess K said:


> Hi all
> 
> This is my first post on the site so I do hope I follow the right protocols! :smile:
> 
> ...


Hi I'm new to the site, but have just read your post, and it's probably a little late for you but I feel that these chemicals are dangerous to our pets. Today we lost our 6 yr old cat to cancer, I have to say that she had a very bad reaction to this treatment, fitting and foaming, now she has gone. As an alternative to chemicals for our dog we have found this, have a look and see. 
Petprotector with Id 72401
Hope it helps


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Norman G said:


> Hi I'm new to the site, but have just read your post, and it's probably a little late for you but I feel that these chemicals are dangerous to our pets. Today we lost our 6 yr old cat to cancer, I have to say that she had a very bad reaction to this treatment, fitting and foaming, now she has gone. As an alternative to chemicals for our dog we have found this, have a look and see.
> Petprotector with Id 72401
> Hope it helps


Are you by any chance the same person, under a different name, who came on here a couple of months ago trying to promote this? I'm pretty sure we were all of the mind that it's a scam. This post is also 2 years old


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## STEPHANIE HANDS (Oct 5, 2019)

I'm currently waiting for results of a Mdr1 test on our pure breed border collie, who fits 4 to 5 times a year .
I have just stopped Melbemax as this could be the cause as the toxins build up in the brain 
After reading about Advocate that's also a No
Is ther anything safe to use for lung worm on Borders with MDR1


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

STEPHANIE HANDS said:


> I'm currently waiting for results of a Mdr1 test on our pure breed border collie, who fits 4 to 5 times a year .
> I have just stopped Melbemax as this could be the cause as the toxins build up in the brain
> After reading about Advocate that's also a No
> Is ther anything safe to use for lung worm on Borders with MDR1


This thread is over 5 years old. You might want to just start your own thread, you will probably get more response.


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