# APBC Highlights Concerns Over Cesar Millan's UK Tour



## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

APBC Highlights Concerns Over Cesar Millan's UK Tour | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
*
APBC Highlights Concerns Over Cesar Millan's UK Tour*
Date Released: 
25/11/2009

The recently announced UK tour by Cesar Millan brings with it controversy and confusion for concerned pet owners and pet behaviour professionals.

The APBC believes that there is much to thank Cesar for  his programmes have made owners aware that the two alternatives for a badly behaved pet are not just put up with or put to sleep.

It is Cesars dog training methods that divide people and here an understanding of science can separate the wheat from the chaff. Whilst thirty years ago some of Cesars methods were considered the best science available, dog training has progressed greatly since then.

Today dominance and pack theory have been superseded with family orientated constructs of the ways that dogs relate to us and each other. Even the wolf behaviourists who first suggested the dominance theory (from whom the dog trainers took it) have since said it was always a false premise.

However, it would be wrong to suggest that all Cesar does is based on fallacy. Consistency, firm boundaries and increased exercise will help many pet dogs, and we know that punishment can work on some dogs for some people in some circumstances. The art is in knowing where it will and where it wont. It was through developing techniques for the occasions where it wont work, that alternatives that will work on all dogs for all people in all circumstances are now widely accepted as the best ways to train and rehabilitate dogs.

Punitive alpha rolls, lead jerks, jabs and other harsh corrections can subdue a dog  if you are fit, quick, agile, strong, and consistent in applying them. But most pet owners are not. Neither do pet owners relish going head to head with an aggressive dog. Get it wrong and the dog can become more aggressive. Why does Cesar need to state, Dont try this at home? It is because some dogs may react aggressively if they feel threatened or fearful, and when a dog becomes confused and anxious about their interactions with people it can make them more likely to be aggressive in general.

Every professional working with dogs needs to constantly review their methods, and most will use a combination of techniques gleaned from various sources as improved welfare-friendly ones become better known.

APBC members regularly work with dogs that show extreme aggression, helping owners to change their dogs behaviour with methods that can be used at home.

If anyone, including Mr Millan, would like to see these techniques in action, we would be more than happy to demonstrate them.

For further details please contact Pippa Hutchison (APBC public relations):
01436 840194 [email protected]

_For anyone who would like to learn more about aggression in dogs, the APBC will be holding their 21st Anniversary seminar entitled Aggression  its an emotional thing on 6th March 2010 at Stoneleigh Park in Warwickshire  see Conferences and Events | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors for details. _


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

_*Yay, Hallelujah!*_

my sole quibble is the phrase, 


> _punishment can work on some dogs for some people in some circumstances. _


no-one claims that punishment Does Not Work - of course it does. 
the Big Q is, _*Do we want to use pos-P?, despite its potential for making things worse in the long term.*_

the Q never has been, _Does punishment actually work?_ 
thats a non-starter. 

the problem with applied punishment, AKA positive-punishment, are the accompanying risks of unintended side-effects that ride the coat-tails of punishment... such nasties as increased-aggro, phobias, a lower threshold for reactivity, defensive behavior, suspicion, anxiety, and increased stress are among them.

i think we can also agree (unfortunately) that the human-default to PUNISH will have every dog-owner 
who reads this phrase thinking, 'some dogs includes MY dog', 'some ppl is ME', and 'some circs include MINE'... 
of course, this is natural, as we and our dogs are always the Special Ones, the Special Case, the Exception, LOL... 
except that it is not funny.   its a worry! :frown2:



> _ The art is in knowing where (punishment) will (work) and where it wont. _


i disagree with this statement - 
with the exception of NEGATIVE-punishment, a consequence following an un-desired behavior which entails 
_*taking away something desirable, to discourage the repetition of that unwanted behavior.*_

outside of genuine crises - the dog is about to attack a person, dog, etc; the dog is a danger _Right Now!_ 
to someone or something, etc - there is always an alternative to the use of applied-punishment in training. 
crises are not training; crises are accidents!  
_*training is scripted - it has a plan and a goal-behavior.*_

also,


> it would be wrong to suggest that all Cesar does is based on fallacy.


i would say that most, if not ALL that Cesar _*Does!*_ is based on misapprehensions, misunderstandings, and misapplications; 
it is _*What He SAYS*_ that may be correct, and most of the correct things he says are anything but original; they are antiques, 
so old that they once had hair, and are now balding and moth-eaten, LOL. 


U still have to pay careful attn to separate wheat + chaff in his statements. 
not everything he _says_ is accurate or safely applicable, but more of his verbal is correct than his physical handling, anyway. 
so if U are a gambler, _listening_ to Cesar has better odds + less risk than _watching and imitating his handling._ 

cheers, 
--- terry


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I dont think he uses dominance in every respect, he will coax the animal and simply not let them win, he seems to use a variety of methods from physical, to food to holistic - even patience in gaining trust...

I understand dominance theory to be based on force - to me this is not his defining method of working but uses a multitude of them. He has paved the way for 'trainers' to become a dog buzzword - largely in promting themseves against him.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I am neither for or against this fella to be honest the jury is still out on him as far as I am concerned, but last night I was watching an episode where the "case" was a severely frightened doberman x? was petrified by EVERYTHING, from cupboard doors being open in the kitchen, the the cats in the home playing, balloons, linolium(sp) and also had a very strange way of dealing with her eating, being petrifried during every meal constantly looking around, and needing comforting between each mouthful, while watching the programm, my heart went out to this beautiful girl, thinking she has no real life, she has shut down from all that would normally give pleasure to a dog, CM was called in, he took her to his place and to be honest I was cringing watching the way he dealt with the situation, placing her on a running machine while she was bombarded with noise/ballooons, CM felt that she was locked in her mind and required to move forward and through her fear? she eventually did walk on the running machine, she did appear to be a little more calm when these items were brought out in front of her, he took her to a grayhound rescue where she ran about with other dogs, , he had her tested for all medicale problems that may be related to her eating habits, he had holistic specialist working on her, and also TT treatments, eventually the girl did appear to be more "normal" and there was a report from her owner 7months later that she is a different dog, being able to cope with the normalities of life that before had her hiding under a table. as I said my stomach was turning watching this treatment, thinking he is doing more harm than good, but seeing that girl at the end playing in the garden, going for walks, passing open cupboards and drawers etc lifted my heart, as it seemed this girl was now begining to enjoy life?

Mo


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

I am interested in everyones way of training... I will listen watch and then choose what suits me and the circumstances I find myself, in line with the dog I am working with.

As the APBC says - in this very much 'sitting on the fence' press release -

"Every professional working with dogs needs to constantly review their methods, and most will use a combination of techniques gleaned from various sources as improved welfare-friendly ones become better known"

I can certainly see areas, where Cesars theorys and his ideas could be beneficial, but I also see where it could cause problems and it is having that knowledge and being able to call on it for the future that anyone working with dogs will find useful.

I think the main concern is that 'members of the public', who have little or no understanding of dogs, will go off and think that 'all applies to one', which anyone with experience knows it doesn't.

I will be going to the ABPC conference, as I have done for many years. I have also got tickets for Cesar...

Mo I saw that epidsode too and was horrified at his 'flooding' technique - which by all means is very recognised training method (I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong). As you say, it seemed to work, but how many people would be 'brave' enough or stupid enough? to push a dog through to the otherside?

But that is the great thing about watching other people and listening to their ideas, it gives you something to think about and question for the future.

Which is exactly what this programme did for you and me.

Kate


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I like to take bits from everywhere that suit at the time, I am not set in any school of thought, I think the problem with CM is he is televised full stop, if he ran a school, and worked on one dog at a time and got good results then thats OK but the fact he is on TV and as mentioned all and sundry will try his methods in the most inappropriate situations. a lot of dogs and possibly humans will be damaged in the long run not just because of his techneque but because it is applied in the wrong circumstances, but he is big money and as long as he gets a good audience he will continue to influence the less than educated dog people out there. I was contemplating going to see him when he is over here, but to be honest I have a feeling it will be like watching a trained animal show, with dogs that do not have real issues being brought out for the audience to see his techniques, and the Q & A section I feel will be guided, so that only the Correct Q's are asked? so I am saving my money.



Mo


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

james1 said:


> I dont think he uses dominance in every respect, he will coax the animal and simply not let them win, he seems to use a variety of methods from physical, to food to holistic - even patience in gaining trust...
> 
> I understand dominance theory to be based on force - to me this is not his defining method of working but uses a multitude of them. He has paved the way for 'trainers' to become a dog buzzword - largely in promting themseves against him.


Sorry but you are so far out there that it will take a search and rescue dog team to find you.  IF you had that much experience in dog training and behaviour you would see how wrong 'Cesars Way' is. Mind you, you don't even need that, you just need eyes! I have no wish to 'attack' you James and I am sorry if it comes across like that but methinks you need to do a lot more research into training and a lot more observation and learning about behaviour and body language of dogs.  Cesars methods are NOT neccessary, even with the most aggressive of dogs. They are old fashioned and dangerous to promote.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

How can you tell someone that their opinion is wrong? A personal opinion can never be wrong, and just because it doesn't match someone elses doesn't mean one is more right than the other. They are both opinion.
Why is it that whenever a training related thread starts, the same self-proclaimed expert members crop up and try and put down the other members and claim that they are more experienced, better qualified and therefore their opinion is right and should be taken as fact?

It spoils the debate and discussion by making members feel defensive about voicing their opinions and reasoning. Everyones opinion is valid and no opinion is more right than anyone elses. 



Personally I don't mind Cesar. I think some of the things he does and debatable whether they work or not, and other things he does seem to really help the dogs.
You can't blanket criticise his ways of working as rubbish if he gets results with some dogs. 
The press release doesn't condemn his methods or himself, so why do members on here know better than the official Association?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> It spoils the debate and discussion by making members feel defensive about voicing their opinions and reasoning. Everyones opinion is valid and no opinion is more right than anyone elses.
> 
> We'll be getting Patch appear next to tell us we're all animal abusers if we so much as watch Cesar Millan on tv.


Yes you are right. My bad. James is entitled to his opinion just as much as we are entitled to agree or disagree with it.

As for Patch well they are entitled to their opinion too, as are we all.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> How can you tell someone that their opinion is wrong? A personal opinion can never be wrong, and just because it doesn't match someone elses doesn't mean one is more right than the other. They are both opinion.
> Why is it that whenever a training related thread starts, the same self-proclaimed expert members crop up and try and put down the other members and claim that they are more experienced, better qualified and therefore their opinion is right and should be taken as fact?
> 
> It spoils the debate and discussion by making members feel defensive about voicing their opinions and reasoning. Everyones opinion is valid and no opinion is more right than anyone elses.
> ...


thats not very nice to single out certain people which arent even involved in this thread :frown2: and there u go about opinions but in the matter of fact u do the same by singling out a person which voiced an opinion in other threads in the past and shoot her down before she even got to say anything on here if she even intends to ... we dont know... :frown2:

dont preach something u cant live up to urself i would say :frown2:


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

I know that CM discussions have a very black and white theme to them, and because of this people get passionate. But I get the feeling sometimes that people let their dislike of the guy overtake their "training" opinion. (and this isn't aimed at anyone in particular).

I personally would like Victoria Stillwell more if it wasn't for the fact she seems to have to dress as a dominatrix. Which personally I can easily cope with  but which I think makes a bit of a mockery to the professional image the programme tries to put across.

Also, CM's teeth seem to have become so famous I imagine they'll get their own spin-off series next.


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

Natik said:


> thats not very nice to single out certain people which arent even involved in this thread :frown2: and there u go about opinions but in the matter of fact u do the same by singling out a person which voiced an opinion in other threads in the past and shoot her down before she even got to say anything on here if she even intends to ... we dont know... :frown2:
> 
> dont preach something u cant live up to urself i would say :frown2:


Apologies. It was meant in a more tongue-in-cheek way, but I can see that it can be read as being offensive. Removed the comment now.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

moboyd said:


> I am neither for or against this fella to be honest the jury is still out on him as far as I am concerned, but last night I was watching an episode where the "case" was a severely frightened doberman x? was petrified by EVERYTHING, from cupboard doors being open in the kitchen, the the cats in the home playing, balloons, linolium(sp) and also had a very strange way of dealing with her eating, being petrifried during every meal constantly looking around, and needing comforting between each mouthful, while watching the programm, my heart went out to this beautiful girl, thinking she has no real life, she has shut down from all that would normally give pleasure to a dog, CM was called in, he took her to his place and to be honest I was cringing watching the way he dealt with the situation, placing her on a running machine while she was bombarded with noise/ballooons, CM felt that she was locked in her mind and required to move forward and through her fear? she eventually did walk on the running machine, she did appear to be a little more calm when these items were brought out in front of her, he took her to a grayhound rescue where she ran about with other dogs, , he had her tested for all medicale problems that may be related to her eating habits, he had holistic specialist working on her, and also TT treatments, eventually the girl did appear to be more "normal" and there was a report from her owner 7months later that she is a different dog, being able to cope with the normalities of life that before had her hiding under a table. as I said my stomach was turning watching this treatment, thinking he is doing more harm than good, but seeing that girl at the end playing in the garden, going for walks, passing open cupboards and drawers etc lifted my heart, as it seemed this girl was now begining to enjoy life?
> 
> Mo


yes thats been shown a lot recently, it did seem very hard edged and from what ive seen of him thats the first time iv seen him go all the way down a flooding route, however I have to say i got a bit of a sandwich in my throat when she was leaning on him in the pool. She trusted him completely, which ever I hope she has a better life for it, she woulnt go outside or mix with ither dogs too if I remember rightly? such a shame

there was another where a husky wouldnt walk which he helped immensely withough using dominance I think?...


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Ooooh goody I can have a say in this.

I have seen more potential damage done to dogs on Dog Borstal than I ever have on CM or any other dog training/behaviour programme yet they pass under the radar for some reason.

More dogs get given a rougher ride on that programme than any other. Every single programme has a dog that receives a face full of water, a bottle of noise shook in it's face or a collar that emits a spray, a shock or a noise in some form or another. The owners are given a ten minute lesson on how to use these and then let loose to use them as they see fit!!!! Irresponsible if you ask me.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Sorry but you are so far out there that it will take a search and rescue dog team to find you.  IF you had that much experience in dog training and behaviour you would see how wrong 'Cesars Way' is. Mind you, you don't even need that, you just need eyes! I have no wish to 'attack' you James and I am sorry if it comes across like that but methinks you need to do a lot more research into training and a lot more observation and learning about behaviour and body language of dogs.  Cesars methods are NOT neccessary, even with the most aggressive of dogs. They are old fashioned and dangerous to promote.


Each to their own . I wasnt promoting him - more giving a level headed reply - which you dont seem able to. I dont judge unlike you, having neither met me or him in person and only having experince of his training through media 'clips'. I instead take what I need and forget the rest. You might do well also to open your senses a little, no point living in a box.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Natik said:


> thats not very nice to single out certain people which arent even involved in this thread :frown2: and there u go about opinions but in the matter of fact u do the same by singling out a person which voiced an opinion in other threads in the past and shoot her down before she even got to say anything on here if she even intends to ... we dont know... :frown2:
> 
> dont preach something u cant live up to urself i would say :frown2:


hold on: how come your not saying that in response to CarolineH's thread to me?! That was a bit of an attack on her part no??

And thank you KenDoddsDadsDog for upholding a little common value.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

james1 said:


> hold on: how come your not saying that in response to CarolineH's thread to me?! That was a bit of an attack on her part no??
> 
> And thank you KenDoddsDadsDog for upholding a little common value.


i was responding to a statement about someone who aint even involved in this thread and the name shouldnt have been brought up


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

KenDoddsDadsDog said:


> Apologies. It was meant in a more tongue-in-cheek way, but I can see that it can be read as being offensive. Removed the comment now.


..... :thumbup1:


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Ooooh goody I can have a say in this.
> 
> I have seen more potential damage done to dogs on Dog Borstal than I ever have on CM or any other dog training/behaviour programme yet they pass under the radar for some reason.
> 
> More dogs get given a rougher ride on that programme than any other. Every single programme has a dog that receives a face full of water, a bottle of noise shook in it's face or a collar that emits a spray, a shock or a noise in some form or another. The owners are given a ten minute lesson on how to use these and then let loose to use them as they see fit!!!! Irresponsible if you ask me.


very good point


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Natik said:


> i was responding to a statement about someone who aint even involved in this thread and the name shouldnt have been brought up


ahh just seen the name in your quote - lol ill keep quite about things


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## KenDoddsDadsDog (Aug 26, 2009)

I happened to stumble across an episode of Dog Borstal last night on Blighty or some channel. And was surprised at the level of intimidation used with the dogs.
One dog would bark when the owner wandered off, so the solution was for each time the dog barked the owner had to walk beck to it and throw a cup of water in its face. It worked, but then I'm sure that kicking it each time it barked would work, but that's just as unnecessary too.

I can see how dominance can be used with some dogs, but people shouldn't confuse dominance with intimidation or bullying or aggression.

Dominance should just mean taking charge or making sure the dog obeys commands given to it.


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi

OOOOO very interesting thread.

What I find fascinating that the world of Dog Trainer/behaviourist in the UK is actually very small, most people who are serious about what they do at a certain level, know each other.

I was amazed to see Dog Borstal on TV, as I knew some of the people in this show and was TBH horrified that they were on TV doing anything with dogs atall - their training methods were known to be very 'old school' and I certainly wouldn't give them credit sd 'trainers'.

Victoria Stillwell, was another that suddenly surfaced with no 'status' within the field, never been on the scene, but suddenly on TV. There are many others on TV, that I know or have seen or heard of, through working obedience, agility or in my job.

All you need to be on TV is a bit of an 'image' (why does she go around in jodphurs and riding boots?), a bit of 'push' and able to make good TV.

So lets no confuse these people with those who are working day in and day out with rehabilitating dogs and providing valuable help to owners at the end of their tether (or should I say lead!).

Kate


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## tafwoc (Nov 12, 2009)

I totally agree!! An Ceaser adapts his methods to fit each dog, he doesn't just have one technique, i don't see why people always use ceaser as an example....especially if they are using it as a bad one.



hutch6 said:


> Ooooh goody I can have a say in this.
> 
> I have seen more potential damage done to dogs on Dog Borstal than I ever have on CM or any other dog training/behaviour programme yet they pass under the radar for some reason.


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## barnesy (Nov 10, 2009)

Having watched CM, when we first got our dog, from the dogs trust, we decided on a dog psychologist. 

Our dog had been abused before we took her on, had spent 2 months practically constantly barking whilst wit the dogs trust and wouldn't let any man within 20 feet of her without going mad.. 

I found our dog psychologist on the web and have to say he has been a god send. 

When he first came to see Sandy it took her 40 mins to stop barking at him, but in refusing to acknowldge her, she starte dto back down. 

After a couple of hours she turned into a different dog.. 

We had to go away and we gave her to the dog psycholgist for 5 days.. 

We saw a vast improvement in her, gone was the barking at everything and everyone, she was much more pleasurable to walk etc etc etc... 

When we take her to Vets they also comment on the change in her... 

In no way has out DP used any harsh methods, it is definitely about confidence. 

Sandy still does have her quirks when she is with us espeically me (sometimes her need to protect gets the better of her!), but amazingly when the DP comes round she is the most obedient dog you will ever meet. 

I would never have though about a dog psychologist if I hadn't watched Ceasar, if I hadn't of seen it happen with my own eyes, I would have said that his programme was very cleverly edited... 

Sandy now stays with the DP when we go on holiday, I know he & his family understand her and I know that when she comes back to us she changes for the better. 

My husband and i are going to see CM in March, as I am curious. 

What I will say that I notice with alot of CM clients (as it were) is the owners don't seem to appreciate/understand that their dog has needs. Mpst are not exercised or stimulated in anyway, hence why they have issues. 

His Mantra of Exercise, Affection then Dicipline, with the main emphasis on Exercise, I think helps focus people, who think they don't need to exercise a dog - it is important for their overall well being.

I know my dog has benefitted from a DP, regardless of who taught him... 

having only just joined this forum, what I don't get is the witch hunt there seems to be against CM, when quite rightly Dog Borstal seems to be much more regressive... 


I think everyone has to find what is right for them and their dog.


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## CavGirl (Nov 15, 2009)

OMG No one should use Cesars methods because they are not experienced in his methods only Cesar can do what he does the way he does it FACT!

I watched an episode on sunday night and Cesar did not once touch the dog in any way shape or form as to create trust and respect with a fearful rescue dog! So its false to say its all about dominance! He does use dog psychology on cases fact! He does what other dogs would do in a situation where a dog is unstable and thats why he also uses the pack! And hes successful if all the dogs in the world lived with him at the centre we wouldnt have any unstable dogs!

Its people that create all these problems in dogs so instead of blaming Cesar in using tuff measures for last chance dogs blame the people that created these problems in the first place!

If todays children had a little bit of the exercise, dicipline and love that Cesar shows his dogs then maybe we as a society would be getting on a bit better with one another!


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

I think the APBC statement is very conservative, it could and should say a lot more - in my opinion.


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## tafwoc (Nov 12, 2009)

CavGirl said:


> OMG No one should use Cesars methods because they are not experienced in his methods only Cesar can do what he does the way he does it FACT!
> 
> I watched an episode on sunday night and Cesar did not once touch the dog in any way shape or form as to create trust and respect with a fearful rescue dog! So its false to say its all about dominance! He does use dog psychology on cases fact! He does what other dogs would do in a situation where a dog is unstable and thats why he also uses the pack! And hes successful if all the dogs in the world lived with him at the centre we wouldnt have any unstable dogs!
> 
> ...


I totally agree! An society should use him as an example. Maybe he could be prime minister too. hehe.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

HighPr00 said:


> I think the APBC statement is very conservative, it could and should say a lot more - in my opinion.


What's your thoughts on Dog Borstal HighPr00?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

HighPr00 said:


> I think the APBC statement is very conservative, it could and should say a lot more - in my opinion.


 I agree. I found it a bit of a cop out. They seem to be reluctant to 'tell it how it is' and are pussyfooting.

Dog Borstal? Load of rubbish with too much testosterone (Mic) and negativity about it. The very title says it all.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> I agree. I found it a bit of a cop out. They seem to be reluctant to 'tell it how it is' and are pussyfooting.
> 
> Dog Borstal? Load of rubbish with too much testosterone (Mic) and negativity about it. The very title says it all.


So why does CM get so much attention when there are far worse trainer/behaviourists out there on TV?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> So why does CM get so much attention when there are far worse trainer/behaviourists out there on TV?


No idea. Maybe because he is more 'charismatic' and wears the label of 'Dog Whisperer'?  (More like Dog Wrestler!)


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> So why does CM get so much attention when there are far worse trainer/behaviourists out there on TV?


because he is more popular i would say... i couldnt even tell u what channel dog borstal is on


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> What's your thoughts on Dog Borstal HighPr00?


Much the same as Cesar, possibly worse but I haven't watched as much of Dog Borstal.

From what I've seen it's the same concept just without the emphasis on dominance - too much punishment and corrections and very little positive reinforcement.

I would say the reason Cesar gets more flak is because he's higher profile. I can watch 'Dog Whisperer' every night if I wanted to, I couldn't even tell you what channel 'Dog Borstal' is on.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

So is it fair to say that his show gets a lot of viewers because of two reasons:

The people who like him want to see what he is going to do next.

The people who dislike him or don't agree with him want to see what he is going to do next.

It is like that Jordan thread. Everyone banged on about how annoying she is, how she sets a bad example, how she wound people up yet the people who didn;t like her knew everything about her, watched her programmes and had obviously spent a lot of time watching or reading about her to get all the information for the reasons they didn't like her.

Personally if I don't agree with something or don't like someone that is on TV I don't watch it and I don't have anything to do with it. Why get wound up over soemthing that doesn't affect my life in any way? You watch TV to relax not get frustrated and the same goes for a book or a newspaper to some extent.


All the posted videos that get "Have you seen what he does here!", "look at this!", "What is she doing here?!" are all fuelling the publicity train for the people you don't like so you are promoting them and exposing them to others so you are fighting your fire with these people using the exact fire they are after.

Sometimes even bad publicity can be great publicity.

It just doesn't make sense.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

tafwoc said:


> I totally agree!! An Ceaser adapts his methods to fit each dog, he doesn't just have one technique, i don't see why people always use ceaser as an example....especially if they are using it as a bad one.


For the past 7 seasons (haven't seen the new one) his methods have consisted of physical manipulation, the application of pain, intimidation and the use of coercive techniques to get the dog to, usually stop doing something.

You can have many opinions about Millan, there are many facts however. Like the fact that his theories has no scientific basis. His explanations of how dogs learn is invariably wrong. His description of 'dog psychology' has little factual merit'. He also does talks a lot of nonsense about 'intention' or 'energy' creating 'reality' - it's ridiculous new age woo-woo that may appeal to audiences but says nothing. These things have been said by many others who do actual research into animal cognition, psychology, ethology. And most importantly for me is that in every case shown there are non-coercive methods available.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> Personally if I don't agree with something or don't like someone that is on TV I don't watch it and I don't have anything to do with it. Why get wound up over soemthing that doesn't affect my life in any way? You watch TV to relax not get frustrated and the same goes for a book or a newspaper to some extent.
> 
> All the posted videos that get "Have you seen what he does here!", "look at this!", "What is she doing here?!" are all fuelling the publicity train for the people you don't like so you are promoting them and exposing them to others so you are fighting your fire with these people using the exact fire they are after.
> 
> ...


Millan may not affect my dog personally, but as a human being with compassion my interests go far beyond me. Besides the fact that I find his spread of ignorance offensive on a purely intellectual level, the result of that ignorance is that a lot of animal are being mistreated in this misguided quest for ultimate dominance of the household.

If you are interested in the welfare of animals then it is imperative to watch these terrible trainers, even if you don't like them. When the issue of dominance or millan comes up, how are people to make intelligent posts about his methods if they haven't seen them.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Corinthian said:


> For the past 7 seasons (haven't seen the new one) his methods have consisted of physical manipulation, the application of pain, intimidation and the use of coercive techniques to get the dog to, usually stop doing something.
> 
> You can have many opinions about Millan, there are many facts however. Like the fact that his theories has no scientific basis. His explanations of how dogs learn is invariably wrong. His description of 'dog psychology' has little factual merit'. He also does talks a lot of nonsense about 'intention' or 'energy' creating 'reality' - it's ridiculous new age woo-woo that may appeal to audiences but says nothing. These things have been said by many others who do actual research into animal cognition, psychology, ethology. And most importantly for me is that in every case shown there are non-coercive methods available.


So you watch him to see what he's going to do next too


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> So you watch him to see what he's going to do next too


Yes, I watch him but like a doctor that wages on to the heart of an outbreak I've been properly immunized against his disease. Most people that watching are likely to catch this dominance disease.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Corinthian said:


> Yes, I watch him but like a doctor that wages on to the heart of an outbreak I've been properly immunized against his disease. Most people that watching are likely to catch this dominance disease.


Ok so what do you get out of watching him?

You know his theories and his stance on dog behaviour etc so I don't get why you watch the shows if you don't agree with him.

I don't watch certain programmes because I think they talk a load of codswallop which I either don't agree with or don't subscribe to their beliefs so no matter how much I watch them they aren't going to convince me otherwise even after just one show.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> Ok so what do you get out of watching him?


When people on boards talk about his 'great' methods, I can specifically describe his practical errors and talk about his bogus explanations.

I also spend some time on anti-evolution and quackery forums and for that reason I also read creationists dribble and antimed tomfoolery.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> You know his theories and his stance on dog behaviour etc so I don't get why you watch the shows if you don't agree with him.


If one is to be as well-informed as possible, one has to know both sides of any argument. Rather than simply taking people's word for it that what CM or anyone else does is inadvisable or 'wrong' for want of a better word, it helps to see exactly how and/or why that would be considered so.

I guess I have to thank CM for one thing - he has increased my understanding and knowledge of positive training methods, dog behaviour and ethology by 100% - but indirectly!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re post #5 - k8t

from k8t: 


> ...the APBC says - in this very-much 'sitting on the fence' press release


from the APBC press-release itself: 


> Whilst thirty years ago some of Cesars methods were considered the best science available, dog training has progressed greatly since then.


hey, kate! :--)

when the APBC refers to to Cesar;s methods as Quote _the best available_ Un-Quote 30-years ago, their position is not IMO astride a fence.

i think their position is crystal-clear: 
Cesar needs to *review (his) methods, and... use... techniques... from various sources as improved welfare-friendly ones become better known. *

since the improved welfare-friendly techniques are widely available, he is more than a bit behind the times. 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## barnesy (Nov 10, 2009)

I have to agree with Hutch6, why do those people that are so against CM methods continue to watch. 

If is methods haven't changed over 7 series and he is using methods that have no foundation in science or fact, the why watch. If you believe the methods you follow give you and the people you work with greater success than CM, then that is great. 

What I don't like with this forum is the intent tat everything CM does is wrong and all those that oppose him are right. 

What I am interested to understand is what out of Exercise, Affection and Discipline those that are opposed to CMs methods finds wrong... 

Is it wrong to Exercise a dog, I don't know anyone on here that would disagree with that. 

Is it wrong to give a dog affection, some could argue it is wrong to give a dog too much or none.. but everything in moderation!!! 

Is it wrong to discipline a dog. Well that obviously depends on what you mean by Discipline... has Ceaser ever come out and hit a dog because they wouldn't do what he wanted, not from what I have seen, has he been overly aggressive towards a dog that he has yelped in pain - again I haven't seen that either... 

What I have seen is him talking about creating boundaries, making a dog sit at a door whilst you open it rather than go for whomever comes through is performing discipline.... - So is that what you are refering to... 

It is quite clear from his show that there is PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME box.... 

I just think it is easy to pick CM because he is so high profile, there are much worse shows/trainers out there, maybe it would be better to highlight those people, than someone - who lets face it is coming to the UK next year, but may not really fit into the way we do things here....

Just my 5 penneth worth!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re post #14 - hutch

hey, hutch! :--)

as a USA rez, i have never seen Dog Borstal; i HAVE seen Pattison / End of my Leash as entire episodes on Animal Planet. 
Pattison is the Canadian answer to wolf-pack theory, heavy-handed corrections and dominance as a paradigm. 

i have read many descriptions of the handling of various dogs (as well as descriptions of the dogs behavior before, during and after) on Borstal, by trusted fellow-pros; i am confident that i would find watching this disturbing in the extreme. :frown2:

in addition, _*brad pattison*_ was at a hotel where an IPDTA event was being held; he passed thru the lobby during a change of sessions, and took 2 dogs from their handlers / owners (dogs who were doing NOTHING wrong) and proceeded to drag both dogs around, up the steps and off, across the lobby, with harsh checks and incessant yanking. 
one dog was yelping in fright. 
he also verbally intimidated and abused the 2 owners.

he then ATTEMPTED to take the leash of a 3rd dog, whose F owner weakly protested; he would no doubt have hauled this unfortunate animal around like a pull-toy as well, but luckily, one of the member-trainers broke from the stunned spell holding everyone frozen, and took the leash HERSELF - only to find that the dog and owner were former clients. 
she informed Pattison that he was not taking the leash. 
Pattison then retired from the scene with bad grace.

i can only say that if that is typical of Pattison, such high-handed, offensive, rude, and extremely UNprofessional behavior does my much-loved profession no favors whatsoever.

the entire event was recalled by the many IPDTA-members who were shaken witnesses to the dogs distress, and Pattisons frankly threatening manner. it cast a considerable pall over the rest of the conference.

i would not hesitate to characterize all 3 programs, Borstal, End of my Leash, and Whisperer, as no more nor less than a justification of bullying. 
dogs do not need to be bullied; they can be _*taught.*_

owners do not need to be bullied, either! :shocked: 
reasonable adults can learn - and reasonable adults can _*teach.*_ 
for more _learning,_ and less _bulldozing,_ 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re post # 8 - kenDodds



> The press release doesn't condemn his methods...


hey, ken! :--)

that was not my impression at all - it seems to express very clear concern and disapproval, IMO. 
pointing-out that CM/DW uses and popularizes methods 30-years behind the current SOP is hardly approval.

i saw nothing that condemned CESAR - that is not the point; i have no personal vendetta, heavens i have never met the man! 
but i am very definitely not approving of his ACTIONS re the dogs he _*handles.*_. 
(remember, he does not train!  )

cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re post #34 - hutch



> Personally if I don't agree with something or don't like someone... on TV
> I don't watch it and I don't have anything to do with it. Why get wound up over soemthing that doesn't affect my life in any way? You watch TV to relax not get frustrated and the same goes for a book or a newspaper...


hey, hutch! :--)

unfortunately, as a dog-pro CM/DW does indeed affect my life... i wish that were not true. 
when i go to someones home to help them with problem behaviors in their dog, if they have been watching 
CM/DW avidly and applying PACK-Leader and Alpha-rolling and Tsst-ing and poking and hanging their dog... 
there is every likelihood that the dog will expect more of the same from me, and as a complete stranger, 
this dog is going to view me very, very warily, indeed.

after all, if the ppl who live with U overpower U physically and swamp U emotionally, 
why would U expect any better from a stranger? :yikes:

so my chances of being bitten vastly-improve when i meet CM/DW fans and their dogs, any of whom may become my clients. :frown2:
the prospect of being bitten does not gladden my heart - but being bitten when i have done NOTHING whatever to elicit such self-protective aggro, is salt in the wound. 
being bitten by a dog who has been made paranoid and neurotic by harsh handling and constant confrontation would make me _*Extremely UN-happy with Cesar Millan for his promotion of these archaic tactics, 
and with National Geographic channel, for piping this twaddle direct into the all-consuming, unquestioning maw of popular entertainment, with nothing 
but a Do Not Do This At Home tag-line to cover their sorry #[email protected]*&! *_

*Do Not Do This At Home* is a pretty doggone cheezy loincloth, IMO. 
as far as i am concerned, these various Emperors *All!* have no intellectual garments whatever, 
and are stark staring bare of any shred of actual science or best-practice re dog-behavior or training. :shocked:

i call em like i see em - 
and if i get badly-bitten by some dog whose owners have been drenching 
the poor creature in Cesar-lessons, i will be looking for a lawyer. :shocked:
best regards, 
--- terry


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Corinthian said:


> Millan may not affect my dog personally, but as a human being with compassion my interests go far beyond me. Besides the fact that I find his spread of ignorance offensive on a purely intellectual level, the result of that ignorance is that a lot of animal are being mistreated in this misguided quest for ultimate dominance of the household.
> 
> If you are interested in the welfare of animals then it is imperative to watch these terrible trainers, even if you don't like them. When the issue of dominance or millan comes up, how are people to make intelligent posts about his methods if they haven't seen them.


his show does say these are techniques not to be tried without consulting professional help. I dont think hes too bad for all the rehab he does in putting dogs into a better stage of life - hes far from barbaric even if I dont agree with all of his techniques, you have to appreciate the results he gets... even if through bad ownership the dog goes back to its bad habits, he shows that things are not impossible if you take time to consult someone


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

james1 said:


> his show does say these are techniques not to be tried without consulting professional help.


 *The sad truth is that people DO*!! I've lost count of the number of professional dog trainers I have heard from recently who have seen dogs seriously disturbed and/or made aggressive by their owners' use of his methods. Many have had to be PTS.

If you can't stop people copying what they see on TV, with the result that people are getting bitten and dogs destroyed as a result, then you might have a good argument that these methods shouldn't be shown at all, surely?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

These threads just make me laugh now.......

As I always say......

The proof is in the pudding. To be coming to the UK after nailing it in the US, demonstrates that the anti cesar camp are in the minority. Quite obviously, as if they were in the majority then he would not be doing so well.

For the anti cesar camp who say his methods are cruel. . . . I use these methods and have had great success. My dogs are not dominated in the physical sense, but they know I am the boss. They take pleasure in knowing that I am here to look out for them, and for the first time in their lives (the two greek guys) they are looked after and treated well. They are happy knowing that I am the boss.

Cesar Milan has given me the knowledge and confidence to not only tackle the issues I have had with those two, but to help another dog who needed a home.

What a terrible man and what an awful person I am............


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> The proof is in the pudding.


 - vic

hey, vic! :--)

very much so - 
and my fellow-trainers in Southern California are on the one hand, happy for the work - 
and on the other, intensely frustrated by the vastly-increased complexity of repairs that are needed 
to PATCH-UP the dogs whose owners hired CM/DW or any of his merry band of wannabes. 
they would MUCH rather fix the minor problems that pre-existed *his* fix, thanks awfully! 

the ER is getting a good work-out, too - 
as CMs former clients, trainers who mimic his methods, and plain ordinary Joe and Jane Pet-Owner CM-fans, 
all come in for everything from stitches to tetanus shots. 
in this down economy, i guess we should all be happy to have something to do?  
gracious... 
--- terry


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> re post #5 - k8t
> 
> from k8t:
> 
> ...


I beg to differ here, they could have been more 'upfront' about it and actually come out and said that his training methods are 'wrong', not 'bit behind the times', which in my opionion says nothing much atall!

They also start of the PR by saying:...

'The APBC believes that there is much to thank Cesar for  his programmes have made owners aware that the two alternatives for a badly behaved pet are not just put up with or put to sleep.'

Not exactly a condemnation then!

Also they say....

'However, it would be wrong to suggest that all Cesar does is based on fallacy. Consistency, firm boundaries and increased exercise will help many pet dogs, and we know that punishment can work on some dogs for some people in some circumstances. The art is in knowing where it will and where it wont.....

Another condemnation? I think not...

They then go on to say in the same paragraph...

'that alternatives that will work on all dogs for all people in all circumstances are now widely accepted as the best ways to train and rehabilitate dog'....

Yes they are now starting to make somesort of firm statement using the 'new methods' 'widely accepted' arguments, but they never actually come outright and say anything more concrete.

This is not IMO an outright statement, more of a disapproval, when they could have infact been more forthright. I find it all a bit 'wishy washy' to be honest.

I am not entering into an argument/discussion/debate about his methods right or wrong. I am just saying that I think it could have been more black/white and not so 'grey'!!!

Kate


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> re post #34 - hutch
> *Do Not Do This At Home* is a pretty doggone cheezy loincloth, IMO.
> as far as i am concerned, these various Emperors *All!* have no intellectual garments whatever,
> and are stark staring bare of any shred of actual science or best-practice re dog-behavior or training. :shocked:
> ...


Absolutely. This type of 'training' belongs in the history books along with dinosaurs! CM cannot even decipher canine body language accurately much less anything else.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

k8t said:


> This is not IMO an outright statement, more of a disapproval, when they could have infact been more forthright. I find it all a bit 'wishy washy' to be honest.
> 
> I am not entering into an argument/discussion/debate about his methods right or wrong. I am just saying that I think it could have been more black/white and not so 'grey'!!!
> 
> Kate


Do you think maybe that they have had to word it so carefully to avoid possible litigation by CM?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> As I always say......
> The proof is in the pudding. To be coming to the UK after nailing it in the US, demonstrates that the anti cesar camp are in the minority. Quite obviously, as if they were in the majority then he would not be doing so well.


The proof *certainly* is in the pudding, goodvic. I guess you aren't moving in the same circles as some of us are - or you would be hearing from the many trainers and rescue organisations (YES! even in the UK!) that are trying to pick up the pieces after people (well-meaning people) have *copied CMs methods*. Make no mistake, *dogs are being PTS on a weekly basis* _because of that_.

Now, what pudding were you referring to?


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Caroline....

I am sure you are right, they would have to be very careful, his American Lawyers will be ready to pounce! I bet they spent a lot of time and money with solicitors, putting this response together, although I do feel a little disappointed they couldn't actually be a bit more forthright.

Merlins Mum...

I hear what you are saying, but having been a dog warden and managed a rescue centre for the Blue Cross, I can assure you that thousands and thousands of dogs are being put to sleep daily and reared and kept in appalling conditions throughout the UK, with or without Cesar Milan and very often a behaviourist is actually the last resort for many owners.

Just maybe, just maybe, having seen Cesar, these people will now seek help sooner, without leaving their problem with the rescue centre to sort out and make truely horrible decisions on.

Kate


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

k8t said:


> Just maybe, just maybe, having seen Cesar, these people will now seek help sooner, without leaving their problem with the rescue centre to sort out and make truely horrible decisions on.


Sorry Kate but the early indicators are... people will try what they have seen on the TV and THEN the dog goes into rescue, or to a trainer... after the damage is done. I would SO love to be proved wrong. Sadly the world is full of numptys (we know that!) and it does seem, so far, that numptys like to try something they've seen on TV _before_ they seek advice. Already proven, surely - behaviourists all over the world are already seeing a marked rise in dogs that people have attempted CMs methods on? Despite his big sign of "Don't do this without professional advice?" It seems that people don't read it. The dogs are paying the price for that! (and the people who are bitten).


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> Sorry Kate but the early indicators are... people will try what they have seen on the TV and THEN the dog goes into rescue, or to a trainer... after the damage is done. I would SO love to be proved wrong. Sadly the world is full of numptys (we know that!) and it does seem, so far, that numptys like to try something they've seen on TV _before_ they seek advice. Already proven, surely - behaviourists all over the world are already seeing a marked rise in dogs that people have attempted CMs methods on? Despite his big sign of "Don't do this without professional advice?" It seems that people don't read it. The dogs are paying the price for that! (and the people who are bitten).


so true... we reguralry have dogs at the training with CREATED problems through the millan methods either by their owners or other "so called" trainers


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

james1 said:


> his show does say these are techniques not to be tried without consulting professional help. I dont think hes too bad for all the rehab he does in putting dogs into a better stage of life - hes far from barbaric even if I dont agree with all of his techniques, you have to appreciate the results he gets... even if through bad ownership the dog goes back to its bad habits, he shows that things are not impossible if you take time to consult someone


The initial warning is nothing but a legal addon, no doubt placed there by lawyers with an eye on preventing lawsuits. Since his book, aimed at the general public, recommends all the same things you see in the show, the waring is highly disingenuous. It is also a poor argument given how people in every forum will describe how they apply his methods to their dogs.

Also based on his Episode Guide book which updates the dogs, he is an abysmal failure when dealing with emotional based problems.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> These threads just make me laugh now.......
> 
> As I always say......
> 
> ...


Rubbish. Minority or majority don't come into it. To be coming to the UK, it only means there are enough people prepared to buy the tickets for him to break even.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

What concerns me is, that every time a dog bites or scares a human being, under current *UK law*, the police never ask "How was it trained?"

If on the other hand, you have a dog and it does something wrong (it doesn't HAVE to be *your* fault), you will be called into the police station and charged or at least WARNED under the UK's Dangerous Dogs Act Section 3. You will be asked beforehand if you want a solicitor present. It's scary stuff. Very scary.

This is *OUR UK LAW* as it stands *now*. I already know of dogs PTS *because of their owners trying to apply CM's methods
* and having severe issues.

It _has_ to be recognised THAT:
In the country where he lives, and in the climate that he lives in...
_THE UK DDA LAWS DO NOT APPLY to *him*._

Anyone in the UK who even thinks of trying to use his methods is, could be in effect signing a death warrant for their dog *if it goes wrong*. And it _IS_ going wrong - so many dogs already are being PTS through 'amateur Cesaring' no matter what his disclaimer says.

Dog trainers and behaviourists in the UK would work themselves into the ground to *prevent anything like the above scenario DDA happening to you or your dog*.

It can happen even to people who have been doing their best and not followers of CM. Why take the risk when we are already in such a difficult place with DDA?

_Why not go to UK professionals who can stand up for you in court if necessary if your dog is charged under the DDA?_
CM is one person. And he *cannot be there for you* in court if YOUR dog gets charged.

If you are following good trainers in the UK.... APDT/APBC/COAPE then their testimonials might get you & your dog out of trouble in court if you can show you are training and under a professional behaviourist and getting UK ACCEPTED ADVICE AND GUIDANCE.

And by the way if you DO get had up by the police under Section 3.... not only might your dog get PTS but you can be fined a heck of a lot as well.

I love my dog *TOO MUCH* to even _consider_ following CM's methods, which are simply inappropriate for THIS country and its current laws. (He himself may not even know that... and I would put money on the fact that he doesn't).


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> Rubbish. Minority or majority don't come into it. To be coming to the UK, it only means there are enough people prepared to buy the tickets for him to break even.


He will then skittle off back to the states having made a load of money for what? He cannot even read dog body language correctly! It is so obvious to so many of us that the dogs are stressed out by his methods. Even though these programmes are so heavily edited it is hard to understand why so many viewers believe this is the right thing to do. Or is it that they WANT to believe because it looks so quick and easy?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re post# 51 - k8t

from the APBC - 


> 'However, it would be wrong to suggest that all Cesar does is based on fallacy.
> Consistency, firm boundaries and increased exercise will help many pet dogs,...


oh, heavens, kate!  

i am _*absolutely positive*_ that if i went back to the very-first book we have on the training of dogs, 
that somewhere in that book it would say, dogs need exercise... 
dogs need consistency... 
dogs need rules or structure or limits or however they term it... 
and there would be _*MORE of the exact same age-old truisms that i and every other trainer have said so often, i swear we could recite them in our sleep... not that it matters, LOL, most owners have an incredibly hard-time getting the concept that EVERYBODY in the house has to NOT allow the dog on the sofa, and EVERY-Body including *Visitors* cannot allow the dog to jump-up, or pet them and coo over them for mugging them at the breakfast-table... *_

just because he says it, does not make it unique intellectual property - 
99% of what he says _*that is true,*_ as i said in my prior post, has been around since Socrates was in nappies.  :laugh: :lol: 

i tell ppl the time, *a tired dog is a good dog...* 
* start off as U mean to go on...* 
* if it is true on Monday, it has to be true the other 6 days, too...*

all of them are exercise, structure, consistency. 
given that i have been saying them since 1972, do U think i should take out a copyright on my intellectual property, hey? :laugh: 
heck, i should collect fees for infringement from Cesar, LOL... :lol: :laugh: :lol: :yesnod: :smilewinkgrin:

off to consult a copyright law on fair-use...  
oh, my - gotta wipe my eyes, LOL... 
--- terry


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Hey

Don't 'have a go at me Terry', those weren't my words!!!.

As I have said before, I am not going to get into a debate about Cesar Milan and we are all well aware of your thoughts on the matter!

Kate


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re post #63 - k8t 


i am truly sorry, kate - 
i did not mean to make that impression at all!  

i literally did think it was funny, that Cesar could be seen as the author or the source of those tenets of dog-training. 
after all, i heard them as a kid from my mentor, who got them from hers! 

i know that i read chapters of a French book (on training hunting-hounds) from the 1400s, and even that book had things in it that i use, as good dog-rearing or training. i was only trying to say that they have been around for a long time... 

i apologize - i did not mean to create bad feeling. 
sincerely, 
--- terry


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Burrowzig said:


> Rubbish. Minority or majority don't come into it. To be coming to the UK, it only means there are enough people prepared to buy the tickets for him to break even.


Of course the majority and minority come into it. He is only doing so well because of his talent AND fame and the support of the MAJORITY

This is why the anti cesar camp are so up in arms. If he was a nobody and did not have so much influence, then these threads would not exist.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> The proof *certainly* is in the pudding, goodvic. I guess you aren't moving in the same circles as some of us are - or you would be hearing from the many trainers and rescue organisations (YES! even in the UK!) that are trying to pick up the pieces after people (well-meaning people) have *copied CMs methods*. Make no mistake, *dogs are being PTS on a weekly basis* _because of that_.
> 
> Now, what pudding were you referring to?


DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME

Sounds pretty plain english to me


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME
> Sounds pretty plain english to me


Then I guess there's a lot of people who can't read out there.... :frown2:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re post #65 - goodVic



> He is only doing so well because of his talent AND fame and the support of the MAJORITY


hey, vic! :--)

have U noticed that the overwhelming *majority of Cesar fans and supporters* are pet-owners - 
not vet-behaviorists, not other dog-professionals? 
a fan-base that is primarily the average-Joe or Jane is not a professional qualification, only a popularity rating.

by contrast, Tamar Geller, Trisha McConnell, Pat Miller, Steve White, Karen Pryor, and many other pos-R 
dog-professionals work with Vet-behaviorists, and get referrals from them. 
--- terry


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> re post #65 - goodVic
> have U noticed that the overwhelming *majority of Cesar fans and supporters* are pet-owners -
> not vet-behaviorists, not other dog-professionals?
> a fan-base that is primarily the average-Joe or Jane is not a professional qualification, only a popularity rating.


You know, I can't name one well known professional trainer or behaviourist (of the modern world, not those transported here from the dark ages!) who supports and promotes CMs' methods? :nonod:


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