# Hobby Breeder?



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

what do you class as a hobby breeder? most "hobby breeders" don't class themselves as breeders. IMO if you have a litter you are a breeder. your thoughts . This is not aimed at anyone and i don't want it to get personal.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

TBH I hate the term. I think its generally used nowadays by breeders who dont want to be seen as a making money from breeding, as if that makes it alright when they are 'just using their pets'

A breeder is a breeder whatever the context. Hobby breeding is a term I see being used more and more. I also think it lulls puppy buyers into thinking these breeders are 'doing better' than the commercial breeders because they love their 'pets' and whant to have a liter or 2 or 3 etc and most of them don't health test or know what strengths or weaknesses their dog has, confirmation wise or within their lines

As Dexter said, not having a go but this is what I have found just in my own breed. The problem I have with pets being bred is outlined above which can have serious consequences if not done right


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree, anyone who breeds a litter is a breeder - end of story. Doesn't matter whether you have one litter from your pet or many litters - all are breeders.

My interpretation of a 'hobby breeder' is someone who's dogs are their hobby and are immersed in the dog world - ie showing, working, competing and they are breeding to further their own dogs and the breed in general - it is a positive term for me.

However, I know some who interpret it to mean someone who breeds for the pleasure they get from it - whether one litter or many. This is often a pet breeder who doesn't have any purpose in breeding other than the pleasure they get from it and to produce puppies (often of dubious quality and health). I can't endorse that sort of breeding as it is purely for selfish reasons and has little knowledge behind it.

Just goes to show how difficult it is to 'categorize' breeders as each term has different meaning to different people.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> *However, I know some who interpret it to mean someone who breeds for the pleasure they get from it - whether one litter or many.* This is often a pet breeder who doesn't have any purpose in breeding other than the pleasure they get from it and to produce puppies (often of dubious quality and health). I can't endorse that sort of breeding as it is purely for selfish reasons and has little knowledge behind it.


I take it to mean this, and this is like what Rupert's breeder is. But she health tests her dogs, doesn't charge crazy prices and takes puppies back etc if things don't work out. She loves her dogs and the whole breeding process but isn't out to make money and doesn't do it often. Even with all Rupert's problems now she chats to me about it and cares a lot about him. But she doesn't show or work her dogs, they are pets.

Hobby to me = something you do in your spare time, which is what she does.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> I agree, anyone who breeds a litter is a breeder - end of story. Doesn't matter whether you have one litter from your pet or many litters - all are breeders.
> 
> *My interpretation of a 'hobby breeder' is someone who's dogs are their hobby and are immersed in the dog world - ie showing, working, competing and they are breeding to further their own dogs and the breed in general - it is a positive term for me*.
> 
> ...


That was my interptation until I joined this forum.
Since joining I think the second definition seems to be a more accurate reflection.
But it goes to show how different people interpret the different labels used.
However I don't think it matters what type of breeder a breder calls themselves it's up to the buyers to make sure thay are happy with the breeder, there methods and there ethics.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

To me a 'hobby' breeder is someone that breeds as a hobby - with no real/vaild aim, not for the betterment of a breed/line, not to keep a pup to work, show ect! Just someone that fancied a litter or two supplies the pet market with puppies..Tested or not.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I never really heard the term until very recently and to be honest don't really understand why it is being used??

I own two poodle crosses and speaking from their point of view do know of two 'hobbyist' cockapoo breeders.

Both don't breed very often and health test and are very selective about prospective owners and take pups back and have kept pups from some of their litters. They don't own the stud either!

Only recently one of the breeders has taken a pup back and is upset as she ensures her puppies are socialised and confident etc.. and pup was returned due to work commitments and the pup is not the same as it went. So breeder is spending lots of time trying to rebuild all her work and I think she has decided to keep the pup rather than re-home.


They both keep in contact with all their pups where possible and are on hand to give advice and they both really understand and enjoy them.

One is already looking a new stock and has 2 puppies coming from America.

One also has a forum so I suppose that's why they class themselves as hobbyist perhaps because they don't breed often, breed for the pet market and are really interested in their dogs hence the forum and being on hand to help people???

I suppose "hobbyist" breeder is just today's latest trendy name - unless it has been going for a long time??


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I dont like the term 'hobby breeder' I dont think that a hobby is bringing lifes into the world, that cant be classed as a hobby. 

Ive spoke to some breeders who say 'Im not a breeder I only have 1-2litters a year' :confused1: lol what do they think they are then!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I'd say a hobby breeder was someone who bred their pets once or twice, either to supply the pet market, experience a litter, or keep a pup from their pet.


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## fleur12 (Feb 11, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> To me a 'hobby' breeder is someone that breeds as a hobby - with no real/vaild aim, not for the betterment of a breed/line, not to keep a pup to work, show ect! Just someone that fancied a litter or two supplies the pet market with puppies..Tested or not.


I agree, this is how I see it also


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Terminology can be interpeted so many ways. its not hard when you say puppy farm or puppy mill, but when someone says hobby breeder or home breeder you just have to do your home work. i always take it as someone who has only a small number of dogs, i would check make sure they health test, what i think they are trying to show is they home raise not kennel raise and don't necessarily own the stud. going for runs. i know a lady with a kennel and she spends the better part of the day with the dogs not only cleaning but training, socializing. Kennel, hobby, Home you pretty much have to check them out to know I don't assume anything anymore.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

pearltheplank said:


> TBH I hate the term. I think its generally used nowadays by breeders who dont want to be seen as a making money from breeding, as if that makes it alright when they are 'just using their pets'


It is pretty much exactly this term which could save the day for responsible and ethical welsh breeders - if it doesn't - the PF and BYB are going to have a field day. while well bred dogs could become rarer than hen's teeth.

To me, a hobby breeder is someone who breeds when they want a pup for themselves to run on - I class myself as a hobby breeder - and it is also a recognised term by the tax office.

My income comes from my business which has nothing to do with dogs (except the occasional website) and it is that that pays for my dogs, my showing, my insurance, health tests, and all the costs associated with having a litter.

I've not had a litter in nearly 2 years, and the way I am going, it could be a while before we do have any more.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2011)

then almost everyone is a "hobby breeder" because (quite simply) there IS no money to be made from breeding dogs, not if you keep them properly that is


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Gopher said:


> then almost everyone is a "hobby breeder" because (quite simply) there IS no money to be made from breeding dogs, not if you keep them properly that is


Bull Crap... Profits are made, not on all litters. But on a litter that goes well, most breeders will make something. Most breeders just dont admit it.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I'd describe myself as a hobby breeder.... Someone who is breeding for a hobby ie, not to make money out of it....

If I was to be really pedantic, I would describe myself as a "Responsible Hobby Breeder"- Someone who is thriving for perfection, takes part in trying to "improve the breed", takes part in many "dog related activities, is involved with breed clubs, willingly accepts she is still learning and will forever learn, fully health tests according to breed clubs recommendations (and more if necessary), studies the history of the dogs in the pedigree, including the progeny of the dogs- as far back as is able to go and chooses suitable mates for the dog based on compatibility, not on convenience.


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## crazycrest (Feb 13, 2008)

I am with swarthy & Tanya on this one, I would class myself as a hobby breeder! This is how I see it 
This link is good.
Breeder Comparison Matrix


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I dont like the term 'hobby breeder' I dont think that a hobby is bringing lifes into the world, that cant be classed as a hobby.


I agree with you there - I don't see how breeding can be a hobby in itself. The 'hobby' if it can be described as such is the interest and activities related to dogs - showing, working, competing in various disciplines etc. Breeding is incidental to this, a part of it, but not the first aim. Whereas it is the only aim for those who some describe as 'hobby' breeders as they like breeding but aren't involved in the dog world and I don't see how breeding for the sake of it, with no other purpose than the experience can be classed as a hobby.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

To me hobby is what you do in your spare time and not to make a serious profit because its not your main work. So I would say it does fit whether its a liked term or not. BYB are often not hobby breeders because they do it day in day out. To me showing horses and dogs etc is a hobby unless you do it full time and have no other work, so for a lot of people I guess they fit into 'hobby breeders' in my eyes.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*My view is,a hobby breeder could be someone that takes breeding seriously or a byb.Every breeder had to start somewhere,whether they take the responsibility or not is another matter.*


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I agree with you there - I don't see how breeding can be a hobby in itself. The 'hobby' if it can be described as such is the interest and activities related to dogs - showing, working, competing in various disciplines etc. Breeding is incidental to this, a part of it, but not the first aim.


This is certainly how I see it - my dogs are first and foremost pets who I show, and some of them I _might_ breed - out of my 5 girls, there is just one who may have a litter, two have had litters and the other two never will.

My boys - who knows? the youngest is too young to be health tested - my eldest boy is fully health-tested - and may or may not be bred from - ultimately, I make the decision based on the requests received - and so far, have turned all but two away - and neither of those are due in season yet


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

The first breeder we looked at were a self proclaimed hobby kennel. They fully health tested, show, only rarely have litters, don't own the stud, lifelong guarantee to take pup back, would want regular updates etc.
The breeders we have gone with are a kennel, yet they both have full time jobs, show golden retrievers, do agility and obedience with their GSD, health test, don't own stud, lifelong guarantees, would want regular updates, yet class themselves as breeders. I think it's an area that isn't black or white, and really is up to the buyer to discern who is in it for the right reasons, no matter what they call themselves.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Liquidsunshine said:


> The first breeder we looked at were a self proclaimed hobby kennel. They fully health tested, show, only rarely have litters, don't own the stud, lifelong guarantee to take pup back, would want regular updates etc.
> The breeders we have gone with are a kennel, yet they both have full time jobs, show golden retrievers, do agility and obedience with their GSD, health test, don't own stud, lifelong guarantees, would want regular updates, yet class themselves as breeders. I think it's an area that isn't black or white, and really is up to the buyer to discern who is in it for the right reasons, no matter what they call themselves.


I would classify both of those as hobby breeds IMHO.

ANYONE who breeds a litter is a breeder, it doesn't matter whether it was intentional or accidental - makes you a breeder - it's where you fall in terms of your breeding practices that distinguishes the good from the bad.

Many kennels whose income comes solely from dog breeding are not good breeders - but not all - I know of some big kennels who I would buy a dog from tomorrow - I know of a small number of commercial breeders who ostensibly do everything by the book - having never been to their kennels, I cannot comment on how they keep their dogs, pups, litters etc - but they SEEM to do the right thing and while I wouldn't buy from them, I know lots of people who have and would.

As for owning the stud - all the studs I've used so far have been fair travelling distances (nearly 18 hours round trip in one instance) - but I own one chocolate stud dog who is PERFECT for one of my girls - both have had had the whole spectrum of health tests and would have produced genetically clear pups for CNM and g-PRA - unfortunately, with 5 bitches he does sit at the bottom of the pack - and she didn't want him to mate her - so it didn't happen as I am not in the market of forciing somethign - but if I had used him, that wouldn't have made me a bad breeder - I bought him in for show and as he has developed - he complements this particular girl perfectly - he doesn't complement her half sister so well - so I wouldn't use him on her.

Just pointing out that while I prefer to see people using outside stud dogs, often, through a lot of effort and research, the perfect dog for their girl might just be closer to home


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

Haha, I know, it wouldn't have put me off if they had owned the stud really, as you said, sometimes circumstance means that the best stud is the one you own!
But that's just how things were with one of the breeders we considered and the one we eventually picked.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2011)

A hobby breeder IS a breeder, that enjoys breeding and all it entails (the most unpleasant part being finding homes for puppies amongst the idiots that think a puppy is like buying the latest toy).

I would consider myself a hobby breeder. I am very much respected amongst those that have puppies from me. I only breed healthy, great tempered bitches to likewise dogs and have only produced healthy, wonderful puppies. I keep in touch with my puppy owners; have become good friends with some, would never see ANY of my puppies without a home and make it very clear that if there are any issues with the puppy, I would take the puppy back.

I don't show but it may be something I look at in the future, if I have time. At the moment, I'm far to busy with my children, Chis and puppies, when I have them.

Also, I now endorse my puppies KC paperwork, to try to protect them from getting into the wrong hands. The amount I ask for the puppy is lower than the average KC reg pup.

It makes me very mad when people LUMP hobby breeders in with BYBS because I don't know any BYB that keeps in the touch with the owners and puts the puppies they have produced FIRST at all times for life, as I would always do, for the pups* entire *life


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> A hobby breeder IS a breeder, that enjoys breeding and all it entails


People obviously have different opinions on all sorts of terms regarding breeders which makes it even more difficult for the general public. . I wouldn't say all those who term themselves as hobby breeders (who only breed for the sake of it rather than in order to pursue their hobby in the dog world) are byb, but most are.

I wouldn't term you as a hobby breeder as I cannot equate breeding as a hobby. I wouldn't call you a byb either, most applicable for your situation IMO is a pet breeder. After all, there is no other purpose for your breeding than producing pets (I don't mean that in a derogatory way).


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> People obviously have different opinions on all sorts of terms regarding breeders which makes it even more difficult for the general public. . I wouldn't say all those who term themselves as hobby breeders (who only breed for the sake of it rather than in order to pursue their hobby in the dog world) are byb, but most are.
> 
> I wouldn't term you as a hobby breeder as I cannot equate breeding as a hobby. I wouldn't call you a byb either, most applicable for your situation IMO is a pet breeder. After all, there is no other purpose for your breeding than producing pets (I don't mean that in a derogatory way).


It's all a bit of a play on words really isn't it. Whether a breeder be a pet breeder or a show breeder, the main thing for me is that it isn't done with profit in mind (everyone knows that breeding, when done correctly, does not involve profit) and is done responsibly.

There is the idea that only people that show should breed; to "better the breed" - if that's a fact then "bettering the breed" in certain breeds hasn't really helped has it????

A pet breeder (to me) is a breeder that does exactly that, breeds their pets, without due consideration to health, type and temperament. That isn't me but I respect your opinion - I just don't agree with it


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> It's all a bit of a play on words really isn't it. Whether a breeder be a pet breeder or a show breeder, the main thing for me is that it isn't done with profit in mind (everyone knows that breeding, when done correctly, does not involve profit) and is done responsibly.


Not really a play on words, because there is a big difference between someone who is actively involved in their breed breeding and someone not involved in the breed and breeding even though they may do so with care and using the health tests available.



> There is the idea that only people that show should breed; to "better the breed" - if that's a fact then "bettering the breed" in certain breeds hasn't really helped has it????


I think terms such as 'bettering the breed' are often heard and repeated without a full understanding of what it means. Someone who is involved in their breed has and has access to far more information and knowledge, has a far great understanding than someone who isn't involved.



> A pet breeder (to me) is a breeder that does exactly that, breeds their pets, without due consideration to health, type and temperament.


A pet breeder is someone who breeds their pets to produce pets - some pet breeders health test, some don't, but they are all pet breeders.

It's interesting that those who are involved in showing/working etc seem to agree in their interpretation of hobby breeders as those who breed as part of their hobby which is their involvement in the dog world, and those who aren't involved in the dog world see themselves as hobby breeders because breeding is their hobby and they don't do it for profit.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Not really a play on words, because there is a big difference between someone who is actively involved in their breed breeding and someone not involved in the breed and breeding even though they may do so with care and using the health tests available.
> 
> I think terms such as 'bettering the breed' are often heard and repeated without a full understanding of what it means. Someone who is involved in their breed has and has access to far more information and knowledge, has a far great understanding than someone who isn't involved.
> 
> ...


So, if you don't show or work your dogs, you are not as well informed:confused1:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> So, if you don't show or work your dogs, you are not as well informed


No offense meant, but the simple answer is that yes - if not involved you do not have access to all the information and experience. It's difficult to explain unless you are involved, but I think it would be fair to say that most learn more in a year being involved in their activity/breed club etc than they could ever learn owning thier breed as pets and trawling the internet.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people breeding from their pets if they do it well. In my popular breed, the puppies produced by those who show and work would not fulfil the demand for them, so there is plenty of room for well intentioned, caring pet owners to breed from their nice pets, but I can't see how the two descriptions of 'hobby breeders' that have emerged in the thread - those who are involved in the dog world through showing/working/breed clubs and pet owners who health test, can be lumped together - in the same way that those who breed from their pets aren't necessarily byb.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Well a hobby breeder is simple... 

A hobby - an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation
A breeder - someone who breeds animals or plants

So common sense would tell you, that the term hobby breeder would mean .... some one who breeds dogs as an activity for pleasure and not as a main occupation.

For it to be classed as a hobby they would have to breed from their dog more than once or have more than one litter.... else it wouldnt be a hoby would it... it would be more of a one time only experience lol


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> No offense meant, but the simple answer is that yes - if not involved you do not have access to all the information and experience. It's difficult to explain unless you are involved, but I think it would be fair to say that most learn more in a year being involved in their activity/breed club etc than they could ever learn owning thier breed as pets and trawling the internet.


This is frighteningly true- and it's only when you are 'in the thick of it' you really start to understand this statement.

I can remember when I got my first showbred bitch - I thought I would take the show world by storm  OMG did I have a lot to learn.

She did OK as a puppy, but then went off the boil for a sufficient period for me to nearly pack in showing - it was only after she came out of her 'off the boil' period and I started looking at other dogs of similar age in the showring that I really understood what had happened.

I started with a pet bitch because it didn't work out with my show bitch from a breeding perspective - and I know I have improved considerably on what I started with - but I am fully aware that I still have a way to go in terms of generations and producing what I want and really like, and what will hold it's own at ALL levels of the showring

Seeing other showdogs week in, week out, you get to understand what is right, what is wrong, what faults there are with your own dogs etc - and it's a HUGE learning curve that I would not have even started to climb had I not started showing.

Totally agree though on the 'well bred pet market' for our breed - there is no way show and working breeders could fulfil the demand for puppies - and if good pet breeders don't - then we all know who will  (and still do to some extent - although there is a move away from them now to other breeds  I just hope it doesn't have the same impact on these other breeds as it has on ours, particularly the chocolates


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Totally agree though on the 'well bred pet market' for our breed - there is no way show and working breeders could fulfil the demand for puppies - and if good pet breeders don't - then we all know who will  (and still do to some extent - although there is a move away from them now to other breeds  I just hope it doesn't have the same impact on these other breeds as it has on ours, particularly the chocolates


We have the exact opposite at the minute, there just aren't enough buyers for the "show bred" litters. People with top "stock" are struggling to sell pups


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> We have the exact opposite at the minute, there just aren't enough buyers for the "show bred" litters. People with top "stock" are struggling to sell pups


 it's difficult isn't it  there's no doubt that the PF are selling less Labs as people slowly start to wisen up - and of course, there are probably less pups being bought atm (although apparently KC figures are up on this time last year) - but the amount of people I've been unable to help find suitable pups is scary - I've had to disappoint my current waiting list twice and in fairness they have waited  but there is also very few places to direct them to


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> We have the exact opposite at the minute, there just aren't enough buyers for the "show bred" litters. People with top "stock" are struggling to sell pups


Dont tell me this....you know I am dying to get a leo!!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I would class a hobby breeder as someone who isn't breeding for money regardless of amount of dogs, whether they're in kennels etc. If they're having 10 litters a year and still saying they're not breeding for money I would question that especially if they said they're a small time breeder as one pomeranian breeder's site did

Tanya please don't tell me that leo people are struggling to sell puppies once I have my name down for a schnauzer. I would love to have a leo


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Yes, unfortunately the top kennels are actually putting all litter plans on hold at the minute. We've had to go ahead with ours as we have been trying for a year and with the bitches age, this is our last available season for an attempt for a first litter. We have plenty on the waiting list, but as you say, never suggest a pup is sold until it is in its new home.... People always drop out, although, these people have kept in touch for the last 15 months and still want pups so, hopefully, our list is still secure, providing if she is in whelp, she keeps the number of puppies below 30


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I dont know how I would describe it I would like to think a Hobby breeder only has a few litters spread over years and years and takes full responsibility for each and every pup they bring into this world thoughout their entire life. They breed for the love of the breed and to keep a pup and to better the line of dogs they have but never to make a profit. .... this probably sounds like a load of crap


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

PF'ers & BYB'ers are having a feild day in our breed :crying:


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> Yes, unfortunately the top kennels are actually putting all litter plans on hold at the minute. We've had to go ahead with ours as we have been trying for a year and with the bitches age, this is our last available season for an attempt for a first litter. We have plenty on the waiting list, but as you say, never suggest a pup is sold until it is in its new home.... People always drop out, although, these people have kept in touch for the last 15 months and still want pups so, hopefully, our list is still secure, providing if she is in whelp, she keeps the number of puppies below 30


If you have any pups spear let me know...:thumbup:

Its sad that good breeders are struggling when byb's are lapping it up...Vile.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Is it just that they're not a popular breed so there's not enough people interested? Most people don't know what a leo is


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> PF'ers & BYB'ers are having a feild day in our breed :crying:


That is truely sad, seems like are with Papillons too, its very upsetting, I saw some Staffillons


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> That is truely sad, seems like are with Papillons too, its very upsetting, I saw some Staffillons


Disgusting isnt it. Although I have 'gladly' noticed alot of the poor bred dogs hanging about on puppy sites a wee bit longer than usal! not nice for the dogs, but will make these breeders think twice next time. I cant say I have noticed the good breeders having problems selling them either. People are and have been jumping on the band wagon due the hairless having the ability to produce hairless puppies put to ANY other breed. The puppies then become 'RARE Hairless Paps, Cavs, Cockers, JRTs, ect. ect'!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

It worries me that because our breed are struggling to sell, breeders will be less thorough towards buyers for fear of putting them off, which could mean accidently selling to these PFers.... Once they get hold of a Leo, there is no going back for a breed like ours :crying:, there aren't enough "non puppy farm" breeders to counteract the damage caused by one puppy farmer.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Disgusting isnt it. Although I have 'gladly' noticed alot of the poor bred dogs hanging about on puppy sites a wee bit longer than usal! not nice for the dogs, but will make these breeders think twice next time. I cant say I have noticed the good breeders having problems selling them either. People are and have been jumping on the band wagon due the hairless having the ability to produce hairless puppies put to ANY other breed. The puppies then become 'RARE Hairless Paps, Cavs, Cockers, JRTs, ect. ect'!


its so sad. as your breed takes alot of care on the dogs skin dosent it? why ruin such a beautiful breed. I have yet to stroke one but always see them at the shows. Next time i will ask even if the owner thinks i am a nutcase


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> its so sad. as your breed takes alot of care on the dogs skin dosent it? why ruin such a beautiful breed. I have yet to stroke one but always see them at the shows. Next time i will ask even if the owner thinks i am a nutcase


They feel like a peach, a warm but firm peach.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> That is truely sad, seems like are with Papillons too, its very upsetting, I saw some Staffillons


that cant be real???


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Most of the chinese crested crosses seem to have a lot of problems that I've seen . They feel really cool asked the woman at DD could I stroke one and she just rolled her eyes and held him out. Think they'd been asked it quite a few times already


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> its so sad. as your breed takes alot of care on the dogs skin dosent it? why ruin such a beautiful breed. I have yet to stroke one but always see them at the shows. Next time i will ask even if the owner thinks i am a nutcase


Ask!! You would be more than welcome to feel our nakids!  Yes their skin can be hard work, and working with the resuces seeing some of the crosses skin is awful, so sad to see these dogs suffer!


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2011)

I would love a leo...debating our next breed (for the future as a pet) and leo's are on our short list along with Burmese.

Its so sad that good breeders are struggling. We are quite lucky in shelties because they have small litters breeders usually keep 1 or 2 back and the rest either go to other breeders or the very small waiting list you have.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Most of the chinese crested crosses seem to have a lot of problems that I've seen . They feel really cool asked the woman at DD could I stroke one and she just rolled her eyes and held him out. Think they'd been asked it quite a few times already


They should not ever feel cold to touch!!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

No not cold he was quite warm


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> that cant be real???


look in your pms:thumbup:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Ohh - Yeah they should be warm to touch  In side during winter keep you very warm!

ETA - I miss read 'cool' for 'cold'


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

He was nice and warm. Sweet little guy I'm sure people had been asking could they pet him all day


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Its quite common, I never mind. I like to talk to others about the breed


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Ask!! You would be more than welcome to feel our nakids!  Yes their skin can be hard work, and working with the resuces seeing some of the crosses skin is awful, so sad to see these dogs suffer!


yeah i bet they do suffer too and the breeders wont point out the care the skin needs (of the crosses)


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> He was nice and warm. Sweet little guy I'm sure people had been asking could they pet him all day


You should try walking around with a Xolo lol.....


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> You should try walking around with a Xolo lol.....


Petted a medium one of those too. They're very warm to the touch


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Petted a medium one of those too. They're very warm to the touch


Was probably one of my friends. She has just had a litter of Standards. I'm off to see them soon :thumbup:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It had a very nice mohawk too :lol:. They had a coated one there looked very different


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> yeah i bet they do suffer too and the breeders wont point out the care the skin needs (of the crosses)


Bad isnt it. I live by the rule that when you have a potential new pup owner who has never owned the breed before, you tell them ALL the bad if their still sat there after that you move on to the good


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I wouldn't have a hairless cc because I've seen so many with awful skin because the owners didn't realise or weren't told how much care they need. I would guess someone just breeding for profit they wouldn't tell you that might loose the sale


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Was probably one of my friends. She has just had a litter of Standards. I'm off to see them soon :thumbup:


eekkk - I want one, I meet a lady at crufts with one 2009. She gave me her card, lovely lady she was!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I would love one but apparently they're very high prey drive wouldn't risk it with Leo. Not sure what size he was actually they had the little ones but he was a lot bigger


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Bad isnt it. I live by the rule that when you have a potential new pup owner who has never owned the breed before, you tell them ALL the bad if their still sat there after that you move on to the good


i shall remember that advice for the future


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Bad isnt it. I live by the rule that when you have a potential new pup owner who has never owned the breed before, you tell them ALL the bad if their still sat there after that you move on to the good


I was told the sign of a good breeder is that they almost put you off getting one of their puppies because they make sure you know all the negatives and will not sell you one if they feel they won't be going to the right home


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> eekkk - I want one, I meet a lady at crufts with one 2009. She gave me her card, lovely lady she was!


That will probably be Donna with Diva.... Diva has just had babies.... 10.... 5 coated girls, 4 hairless boys and one hairless girl. Mango was the dad


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I was told the sign of a good breeder is that they almost put you off getting one of their puppies because they make sure you know all the negatives and will not sell you one if they feel they won't be going to the right home


To right.. Sometimes you just have to turn people down because their not right for a pup as lovely as they are, we have a number of times. Some have gone on to get a rescue through us, thats just as rewarding 



Tanya1989 said:


> That will probably be Donna with Diva.... Diva has just had babies.... 10.... 5 coated girls, 4 hairless boys and one hairless girl. Mango was the dad


Hang on and I will go check the card see if it says a name, I do remember its a piccie of a Xolo stood in a feild though!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Think it is your friend, Donna and PJ  She was lovely, and I feel in love with the dog..Had a good chat with her, in the middle of the car park :lol: Congrats on her litter!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I spent an hour on the phone being questioned by the breeder I'm getting my puppy from and I have to go meet them before they'll sell me one obviously. But with giant schnauzers they really have to go to the right homes they could be a disaster in the wrong hands


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I spent an hour on the phone being questioned by the breeder I'm getting my puppy from and I have to go meet them before they'll sell me one obviously. But with giant schnauzers they really have to go to the right homes they could be a disaster in the wrong hands


Its the way it should be. Potential buyers have me and mum grilling them. Most must feel really intimidated  but hey cant make no mistakes where our kids lives are concerned!!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Think it is your friend, Donna and PJ  She was lovely, and I feel in love with the dog..Had a good chat with her, in the middle of the car park :lol: Congrats on her litter!


Lol...

She has done so much for the breed, and Diva has really helped to educate the GP about Xolos.... Donna is currently working on a massive project with the KC to try and get the import register a place in the groups and at crufts etc.... Exciting times ahead!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Its the way it should be. Potential buyers have me and mum grilling them. Most must feel really intimidated  but hey cant make no mistakes where our kids lives are concerned!!


I would much rather have to take a lot of time and persuade a breeder that I'm the right owner or even be told that I shouldn't get the breed with good reason why than just be sold one without question


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Yes she certainly knew her stuff - Good luck to her, and all she is doing. Defo a breed I will be following!


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## Stellabella (Jan 8, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> I dont know how I would describe it I would like to think a Hobby breeder only has a few litters spread over years and years and takes full responsibility for each and every pup they bring into this world thoughout their entire life. They breed for the love of the breed and to keep a pup and to better the line of dogs they have but never to make a profit. .... this probably sounds like a load of crap


Nope, that doesn't sound like crap to me!

I hope that just about describes what I plan to do. I don't show, that's to do with my major inferiority complex!  But for me, the betterment of the breed comes from the health tests I have had done, and their inclusion towards the EBV data. That database will benefit all future Cavaliers.

Ultimately I would like to own a pup I have bred myself in the knowledge that I have done everything I can to ensure that it wont, or is less likely to, suffer from breed-related problems.

It all sounds too scary to be called a hobby, surely?!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I would much rather have to take a lot of time and persuade a breeder that I'm the right owner or even be told that I shouldn't get the breed with good reason why than just be sold one without question


Me to.. Shows me I picked the right breeder, not one out for a profit but one that really wants the best for their kids!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yes she certainly knew her stuff - Good luck to her, and all she is doing. Defo a breed I will be following!


I know, me too. I was really hoping for a hairless girly to join my gang, but will have to wait til next time


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> I know, me too. I was really hoping for a hairless girly to join my gang, but will have to wait til next time


I would love one to show along side our nakids, but wont be for years yet.. Shall have to find some to handle instead!  Talking of which, Is Diva sometimes handled by Shannon? If so cant believe I didnt realise that she was the same dog before!


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> I know, me too. I was really hoping for a hairless girly to join my gang, but will have to wait til next time


Immac! have you tried immac:scared::scared:


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I would love one to show along side our nakids, but wont be for years yet.. Shall have to find some to handle instead!  Talking of which, Is Diva sometimes handled by Shannon? If so cant believe I didnt realise that she was the same dog before!


Yes, I think she handles her in the YKC classes.... She also recently done a portrait of Diva for the YKC comp thingy and got artist of the year.... its on her fb wall


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## Stellabella (Jan 8, 2009)

Ignore my post...I'm so slow on the keyboard the thread has moved about 4 pages! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

They do agility with a couple don't they? I remember reading a breeder's site and they were showing them doing agility and flyball


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Yes, I think she handles her in the YKC classes.... She also recently done a portrait of Diva for the YKC comp thingy and got artist of the year.... its on her fb wall


haha cant believe I didnt realise before! Yes the portrait was very special.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Here is me and Diva having one of our very special cuddles...


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> haha cant believe I didnt realise before! Yes the portrait was very special.


Small world isn't it?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

aw beautiful! Yes its a very small world!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

She's lovely there were a couple of black ones at dd she might have been one of them


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> She's lovely there were a couple of black ones at dd she might have been one of them


They change colour through out the year. In that picture you can see she is very dark, but at the minute she is very pale (very pale blue).... They tan up in summer to protect their skin.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Interesting that was in November and there were a couple of darker ones and a black coated one. Is it true they can't show the coated ones?


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

They come in 2 other sizes as well, Diva is a standard (a VERY big standard), but Donna also has intermediates which is the next size down.

There are also a couple of minatures in the country who also belong to a friend of mine.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

One was very big. They had the little ones not sure what size that is but small then a much bigger one


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Interesting that was in November and there were a couple of darker ones and a black coated one. Is it true they can't show the coated ones?


They are just starting to on the continent, but up to now they only have a Breed Standard for the hairless in the UK. Once the breed "takes off" then they will be allowed to add to it, the coated variety


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I wonder why that is she said something like half were born coated.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I wonder why that is she said something like half were born coated.


The coated gene is recessive, meaning that 2 hairless parents can produce coated pups, but 2 coated parents will only ever produce coated pups. 
The breed is one of the oldest breed, untouched for 5000 yrs almost. The hairless were considered gifts from the aztec (I think) gods and they were worshipped and believed to have magical powers for healing the sick. Looking back on it now, its believed to be because their body temperature seems so much warmer to the touch (because of no hair insulating it) and it is actually the heat that has the "healing properties".


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I remember seeing about them being used as arthritis treatment in Mexico because they're so warm. When I asked she said roughly half were born coated very strange to see the difference. I know they're a very old breed they're not as susceptible to the cold as the ccs are they?


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I don't know how susseptible CCs are to the cold, but generally speaking, the Standard are pretty hardy, but the smaller they get, the faster they lose their body temperature so they have little coats on, on the cold days. Standards are treated like people, if its cold enough for you to put a big coat on, then you generally put a jumper on the dog too.
Xolos skin is very thick though, its almost like leather, and Donna was telling me that some vets have struggled to vaccinate the dogs the first time because they weren't expecting the skin to be so tough


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

CCs are hardy little dogs to, most of ours refuse to walk in coats - so are never forced! How ever them that will happily wear them do on cold days, like the standards being judged on how cold we are same usually goes for CCs. Mornings of winter shows, we often put coats on as its chilly! You will find the CC people that think they own a doll though, we use practical coats and jumpers for their sake not to look 'cool'!! Our lot keep themselves warm on walks tearing round like loonies !!


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