# when to retire my queen?



## Lily1989 (Dec 11, 2015)

My queen has just turned 3, and has four litters consisting of 2, 4, 3 and 3 kittens, so 12 in total. Im considering retiring her now, but not sure. Shes been a fabulous mother, helped by the small litters no doubt, and she mopes for weeks when they leave. Her current litter is due to leave in 2 weeks, and she'll be out of season until summer now, her body condition this time is fabulous, shes put on weight yet the kittens are huge, she seems to get better results each time!
My head says its time to spay, my heart says one more. 
What age/after how many litters do you retire your queen?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Has she produced a worthy successor that you've been able to keep?


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## Lily1989 (Dec 11, 2015)

Hiya, im planning to start up bengals, so dont plan on keeping any. X


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I used to aim to neuter my girls by the age of 4 but if you are not planning to continue with your girl's breed, there does not seem to be much point in having another litter. Maybe she can satisfy her maternal instinct after she is spayed by helping with your Bengal queen's kittens.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Lily1989 said:


> Hiya, im planning to start up bengals, so dont plan on keeping any. X


Answered your own question really  Can be hard retiring girls, but if you're not going to be breeding that breed anymore I'd spay her now.


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

I'd spay her now as well


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Yes, given you are changing breeds I'd spay as well. Otherwise I'd be spaying once she has produced a worthy successor, or even two by different studs. I have a friend who kept several females from the same mating (different litters) and none of them were satisfactory breeding queens. They were good mothers but mostly deliveries were sections, and they had small litters as well.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

4 litters already, and she's only turning 3? Surely that means back to back breeding every 6 months if you waited until she was a year old before starting! Spay, spay, spay!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I don't think four (small) litters is necessarily (and I stress 'necessarily') excessive for a three and a bit year old queen. But I honestly cannot see the point or benefit in breeding from her any further if you are moving onto a different breed.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

carly87 said:


> 4 litters already, and she's only turning 3? Surely that means back to back breeding every 6 months if you waited until she was a year old before starting! Spay, spay, spay!


If she keeps condition and loves having kittens what's the problem? It can be better to mate a queen than have her calling away losing condition.

However I agree with gskinner below, since the OP is changing breeds I see no point in having another litter from her.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Well, for starters she's only just turned 3, so she had 4 litters when she was 2. I do understand the need to back to back breed some queens if they're excessive callers, but the OP has said that she will now be out of call until the spring despite her current litter being ready to go, meaning that she has a nice winter break, so litters could be stretched. I don't get why anyone would back to back breed if they didn't have a crazy caller and didn't need to, unless they fully planned to retire her really young and desperately wanted a successor, and even then it would be questionable!

As I say, I do understand the need in certain breeds, but not when you have a good few months of no calling in between autumn and spring. This girl, if started at 12 months old, has only had 16 weeks for the last 2 years of not being pregnant or feeding kittens or birthing kittens or rearing etc, and I'm guessing even some of those would have been taken up with studs and matings that perhaps didn't take first time. Sorry, but that's not good whatever way you look at it. The only way that's justifiable inn my own opinion, and I will stress that it's my own opinion, is if your cat risks pyo through excessive calling throughout the year with no breaks, and you're unwilling to try Ovarid, acupressure etc to bring her off.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

She has had 12 kittens by the age of 3. If she had been an oriental, she could have had a litter every year with between 5 and 7 kittens in each and she would have reared far more kittens in the same amount of time. Would that be over breeding?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Here are some alternative definitions of overbreeding:

Breeding a girl before she has regained her condition after having a litter, though if she has called every 2 weeks since they were born this might be necessary
Breeding her when you have had trouble selling the previous litter
Breeding a girl who is a poor mother, who has small litters or who has difficulty delivering without good cause
I haven't put any time conditions in there as cats are individuals and haven't read the books.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I wouldn't define the litter size itself as whether or not someone over-breeds, QOTN. It's more the time and energy involved in gestating, birthing and rearing kittens. Every cat deserves to have a long break in between if that's humanly possible. Just because she's in good condition isn't a good enough reason to breed her again. As you say, if she's calling every 2 weeks then holding off the next litter indefinitely isn't an option, unless you go down the ovarid etc route, but if this isn't an issue, then I don't see the need to mate her again so soon after rehoming the last ones.

My own girls have been in tip top condition almost all the way through their pregnancies and rearing, only looking sunken in and skinny for a week or so, 2 at most, when kittens are draining a lot of milk. But this condition is regained quickly, and by the time kittens are ready for rehoming, you would never know that momma cat had had a litter at all! It wouldn't occur to me to consider re-breeding her for a good few months, because I think that she also needs her down time, to just be a cat without the difficulty of running and playing or the discomfort of kittens kicking her when she's pregnant, or the commitment to kittens when they're here.

I agree that there's no hard and fast rule re time conditions as cats are all individuals, but there was no sign given that this cat was losing condition due to frequent calling, necessitating a quick breeding. Surely the cats themselves need to be considered in the alternative definitions of over-breeding? if a cat only has a maximum of 8 weeks in a year, assuming that she took every time on her first mating on her first try, to enjoy being a cat, and spends the other 42 either pregnant or nursing, isn't that unacceptable? Perhaps as a one off occurrence it could be overlooked as "just one of those things", but if the timeline is correct, this happened 4 times in succession to enable this girl to have had 4 litters before she had even turned 3. In my book that is wrong, and I certainly wouldn't be happy homing one of my own cats into those conditions, no matter how well they were looked after and treated.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

carly87 said:


> I wouldn't define the litter size itself as whether or not someone over-breeds, QOTN. It's more the time and energy involved in gestating, birthing and rearing kittens. .


You may not think litter size is relevant but I have had small litters as well and large litters are bound to take more out of a girl than a litter of 2. It was never particularly obvious in my girls because I made sure they were well prepared before mating and looked after well during pregnancy and lactation but you have no evidence to say this was not the case with this girl.

Virtually all we know about her is that she is 3 years old and has had 12 kittens and she is a fanatical mother to the extent of moping when the kittens leave. I would say that all my girls were happiest when they had kittens and always tried to help with others' babies when they were spayed. I would never have considered forcing them to have kittens if it were not the thing they liked most in the world but I had to space my girls' pregnancies because they tended to have large litters and because of work commitments.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

QOTN said:


> You may not think litter size is relevant but I have had small litters as well and large litters are bound to take more out of a girl than a litter of 2. It was never particularly obvious in my girls because I made sure they were well prepared before mating and looked after well during pregnancy and lactation but you have no evidence to say this was not the case with this girl.
> 
> Virtually all we know about her is that she is 3 years old and has had 12 kittens and she is a fanatical mother to the extent of moping when the kittens leave. I would say that all my girls were happiest when they had kittens and always tried to help with others' babies when they were spayed. I would never have considered forcing them to have kittens if it were not the thing they liked most in the world but I had to space my girls' pregnancies because they tended to have large litters and because of work commitments.


I'm not implying that this girl wasn't in great condition. In fact, the original post implies that she is! My issue is not with the condition itself, it's with the number of litters a queen has had in 2 years. I don't know how else to get that across. Of course a bigger litter is going to take it out of a girl more than a smaller one, but a smaller litter size on its own is, in my opinion, not enough of a reason to breed a cat straight away with no more than 4 weeks of rest in between!

Of course, the other thing that needs to be looked at is that the op said she had a long break where she didn't call in the winter, so that would mean that litters were one on top of the other during that short calling window, meaning that she may not have even had the 4 weeks rest in between! Whether the litters are 10 or a singleton, I'm sorry but I don't think it's justifiable. Well, let me rephrase. It's not something I would do, and it's not a situation I would ever home one of my cats into.

I'm not saying that one litter a year is a hard and fast rule. It's not. It's a gold standard that very few cats stick to, but there's a difference in back to back breeding and aiming for this 1 litter a year scenario.

Anyway, I don't know how else to get it across so perhaps I'll just leave it at that as I'm obviously not making my thoughts clear enough.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

carly87 said:


> I'm not implying that this girl wasn't in great condition. In fact, the original post implies that she is! My issue is not with the condition itself, it's with the number of litters a queen has had in 2 years. I don't know how else to get that across. Of course a bigger litter is going to take it out of a girl more than a smaller one, but a smaller litter size on its own is, in my opinion, not enough of a reason to breed a cat straight away with no more than 4 weeks of rest in between!
> 
> Of course, the other thing that needs to be looked at is that the op said she had a long break where she didn't call in the winter, so that would mean that litters were one on top of the other during that short calling window, meaning that she may not have even had the 4 weeks rest in between! Whether the litters are 10 or a singleton, I'm sorry but I don't think it's justifiable. Well, let me rephrase. It's not something I would do, and it's not a situation I would ever home one of my cats into.
> 
> ...


You make your point very clearly. We shall have to agree to differ.


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