# Bsh kittens :)



## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

So Mia my lovely bsh had her babies last night. She had 8 (!!) but sadly one was stillborn and another was only 47g and quite clearly not as developed as the others 

Anyway I have 4 lovely blues and 2 lovely lilacs! The biggest and smallest are both girls and both are blue, the rest are boys. Weights are 101g, 100g, 95g, 87g, 84g and the tiny one is only 66g. Will she need extra feeds? I'm sorry but this is my first litter. She looks okay and is moving around as much as the others but it's very obvious she is smaller.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lovely! And lilac is wonderful in BSH.

Weigh them all each day at about the same time. If the little one is putting weight on she is fine - once she is bigger about 10g per day is a good gain. She might not put any on for a day or two but she needs the colostrum that is the first milk, so try not to fill her up with formula today.

If she does need topping up, have you done it before?


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks for that 

The little one seems fine, it is just as active as the rest. I have left her with mum but she is noticeably smaller than the others, bless her. Weighed them this morning at 9am (they were born around 4am) so will do the same tomorrow and check if she has gained. The only thing is when we checked Mia and found she had given birth (only 2 hours after I gone to bed thinking it wasn't to be tonight!) this little one was in a box by herself and the others were all with Mia in a different one. I know they say that the mums just know if there is something wrong? 

I personally haven't hand fed kittens but my mother in law has great experience with hand rearing lots of animals and has said she will help me.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

CattingYou said:


> Thanks for that
> 
> The little one seems fine, it is just as active as the rest. I have left her with mum but she is noticeably smaller than the others, bless her. Weighed them this morning at 9am (they were born around 4am) so will do the same tomorrow and check if she has gained. The only thing is when we checked Mia and found she had given birth (only 2 hours after I gone to bed thinking it wasn't to be tonight!) this little one was in a box by herself and the others were all with Mia in a different one. I know they say that the mums just know if there is something wrong?
> 
> I personally haven't hand fed kittens but my mother in law has great experience with hand rearing lots of animals and has said she will help me.


Right now I feel the best thing you can do is keep an eye on her. She might have been in a separate box because she was the first or last. Is this mum's first litter? Sounds like she delivered them very quickly.

Also newborn kittens mostly sleep and are content except when feeding so if she's active more than the others I'd worry about her.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

That is a huge litter! 

What a clever cat your girl is. As has been advised keep a close eye on her - she will probably need hand-feeding as her big brothers and sisters will boot her out.

Seems strange that mammycat had her in a separate box - as OS has said, she might have been born a good while before or a good while after the others, when perhaps your girl was getting herself sorted.

I don't know how long lady cats are left with their gentleman friends when they are taken for stud, but if it's a few days, this kitten may be from an egg fertilised later than the others, and not as well developed.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

I wouldn't say she is more or less active, she is just the same as the others although yes she does get pushed around a bit.

She did have them really quickly (in the space of 2-3 hours). There was a stillborn one still in the sack on the floor behind her box and the last kitten born (the only one I actually witnessed) was quite clearly premature so had probably been conceived later than the rest. The little one was just on its own and admittedly I thought it was dead at first.

I'm thinking maybe putting her back in with them was the wrong thing to do as I have just been to check on them (I am leaving them as much as I can) and Mia was nowhere near the kittens and didn't seem bothered about them at all. She had been so good up til now. She just meowed at me and wanted to come upstairs with me


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Putting her back in will keep her warm and where mum can look after her. Sounds like a precipitous birth. Is this mum's first litter? Your first litter? First time mums are sometimes clueless, and if you've not seen a litter feeding before the squabbling that goes on can look horrible. So long as she keeps gaining weight (or not losing it for the first couple of days) all is well.

I've known a BSH rear litters of 6, 7 & 8 needing no help, my own Oriental girl has reared 2 litters of 6 and not needed help and would really hang back from feeding her unless she clearly isn't growing.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

I've just left her to it tbh, I don't want to start feeding the little one unless I deem it absolutely necessary. She is currently snuggled up with the rest of them and looks like they have all had a good feed as they are sleeping heavily. Will weigh them all tomorrow and hopefully she has gained or at least not lost anything.

Yes her first litter and mine too so I guess I am a bit panicky but I know cats are pretty good as rearing kittens so will just watch from the sidelines whilst they are all happy and healthy


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I had plenty of 'trial runs' with fosters but when Lola had her own litter than I had caused to be born my mind went to mush!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Haven't had a kitten that small, hopefully she gains weight though I wouldn't expect as much of a gain as the more normal sized kittens.

She might want you for comfort, my girls birth in my room so I can't possibly miss it and the kittens stay there for the first few weeks, the girls know I'm right there so settle quickly with their litters.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

Well the tiny one hasn't lost any weight this morning but hasn't gained either. I read that upto 10% loss in first 24 hours can be expected but obviously she is very tiny. 

One of them has lost 1g but the rest have all gained. The big boy has gone from 100g to 114g! 

The only reason I haven't brought her into my room is because my other cat can get in there and she isn't happy about her being around the kittens. She is in the room under my stairs and she seems to be very happy to be there. I do go and sit with her as much as I can though.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If she's happy she's happy. Good that the tiny one hasn't lost weight, see what another day brings.

If she does need topping up at least she has had some colostrum and the immunity that comes with it.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

The smaller two I have been physically placing on a nipple as I found they were struggling a bit especially with the bigger boys pushing them around. They seem to have a good feed then and are content so I can't ask for much else really. 

Will see what tomorrow brings but so far so good.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

CattingYou said:


> The smaller two I have been physically placing on a nipple as I found they were struggling a bit especially with the bigger boys pushing them around. They seem to have a good feed then and are content so I can't ask for much else really.
> 
> Will see what tomorrow brings but so far so good.


I found when I held kittens to the nipple I had to hold them long enough to latch on. Does she stay put once she has latched?

Although she will look small compared to the biggest 66g isn't really tiny for an Oriental kitten though I guess it is for a BSH. There was a 66g kitten in Lola's first litter and he was fine with no special care (biggest was 93g), her second litter were all a lot bigger - 83g to 115g. Again all were fine.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

Yes I make sure they are latched on before I leave them go and they do stay there for a while and have a good feed. One of the bigger ones tried pushing her off the nipple but she wasn't havingg any of it! 

I have weighed them again this evening (I know I shouldn't) and the tiny one has gained 5g so I'm pleased with that. I don't think she is going to be needing any special care either luckily.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I've not had any lose weight for the first day, they only gain, hopefully they've all gained now. Good the little one has gained 5g


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

One of my foster litters might have - that was pre-digital kitchen scales - but she should be fine now the little one is gaining. Good news that she holds her corner.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

They have all gained 10+ grams over night which I'm really pleased about. The tiny one is now 76g. Placing her on Mia myself has definitely helped but I went to do the same this morning and she was already attached 

I keep changing my mind about the sex of one or two of them, I'm conpleteky rubbish as I have never done it before!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

CattingYou said:


> They have all gained 10+ grams over night which I'm really pleased about. The tiny one is now 76g. Placing her on Mia myself has definitely helped but I went to do the same this morning and she was already attached
> 
> I keep changing my mind about the sex of one or two of them, I'm conpleteky rubbish as I have never done it before!


Sounds like the wee one is doing just great - percentage wise she might have made the biggest gain!

If you have them on their tums and life the tail to sex it's easier, but it is hard for a while as mum cleaning them tends to lead to it all getting a bit swollen. It gets clearer again once they start eating solids as she gradually stops cleaning them then.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

Yes I think I will leave off sexing them for a while, it's not really important atm.

The tiny one is a little trooper, definitely does not let the others push her around. My husband wants to keep her (not as a breeding queen) as he has become quite attached.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

CattingYou said:


> Yes I think I will leave off sexing them for a while, it's not really important atm.
> 
> The tiny one is a little trooper, definitely does not let the others push her around. My husband wants to keep her (not as a breeding queen) as he has become quite attached.


You might find the little one is a boy!

Would you like to keep a kitten as a breeding queen?

Be cautious about keeping neuters - they are the drones of the cat world, they take up space and money and don't help your breeding efforts. Of course the odd one comes along you can't resist, and you might get what looks to be an absolutely stunning kitten you want to show.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

CattingYou said:


> They have all gained 10+ grams over night which I'm really pleased about. The tiny one is now 76g. Placing her on Mia myself has definitely helped but I went to do the same this morning and she was already attached
> 
> *I keep changing my mind about the sex of one or two of them, I'm conpleteky rubbish as I have never done it before!*


I wouldn't worry too much about this.

There have been fairly experienced cat breeders on here who have mistaken kitten genders before now. Occasionally we get some photos of kitten "bits" with a "What do you think - boy or girl?" query - and get opposing answers from different people.

There is a theory going round that there is a "kitten fairy" which mischievously changes the sex of kittens (often two or three times!) between birth and new homes. I like to think that she has fluffy wings and a little pink nose leather.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> You might find the little one is a boy!
> 
> Would you like to keep a kitten as a breeding queen?
> 
> Be cautious about keeping neuters - *they are the drones of the cat world, they take up space and money and don't help your breeding efforts*. Of course the odd one comes along you can't resist, and you might get what looks to be an absolutely stunning kitten you want to show.


No - but they help your heart get bigger because they fill it with purry_ love_.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

If you eventually decide to keep this little kitten because you love it, that will be the best possible reason. There may not be room in the future for one more breeding queen but does that really matter? I always feel saddened when breeding plans and show success become an obsession to the exclusion of all else. I have seen it happen so many times over the years. These things are the icing on the cake but not everybody likes icing and too much is definitely not good for you. 

I admit I spent years of my life formulating breeding plans for new colours and showing my cats to popularise those colours. All that is transitory however and cannot begin to compare with the permanent bond you feel for your cats whether they are neuters that 'just stayed' or the girls that give you kittens and generously let you share the joys and sorrows of pregnancy, labour, lactaction, weaning and socialisation of their litters.

Just bear in mind you will want to keep many of the kittens you breed and you have to resist that temptation most of the time or you will have too many cats which will be bad for both you and them.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

You really do have to set yourself a limit , I have kept two boys back from my last litter not for breeding but to show as they are fine examples of the breed and I coundnt bare to part with them ... I started with two breeding queens now have 6 and 3 studs plus my show boys .. 

It's hard work but they want for nothing


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lostbear said:


> No - but they help your heart get bigger because they fill it with purry_ love_.


Indeed they do but they cost money to keep and whilst they are usually easygoing they can be part of the stress in a house with too many cats.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Indeed they do but they cost money to keep and whilst they are usually easygoing they can be part of the stress in a house with too many cats.


If it came down to money we woundnt do half the things in life that we do .. Live and let live ... Work it right and have a good set up with plenty of space no cat should be stress about living with others ... british are a pretty laid back breed. Feed cuddle and a bed or lap to sleep on they are more than happy


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

I'm pretty certain the tiny one is a girl. And as much as I would love to keep her I don't think we will be keeping any from this litter. Nearly all of them have potential homes already and I think my sister is taking the tiny one  

There are two blue boys that look great but obviously early days so who knows.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Surely ignoring money issues can lead to not being able to afford the vet and so on? And although BSH tend to be laid-back cats not all of them are, and if you keep increasing the numbers in a house it's highly likely that eventually a cat will start reacting badly.

If the OP wants all her cats living in the house and thinks she can't bear to rehome a cat if that happens to her then caution about keeping kittens will help keep her breeding plans doing especially if her house doesn't lend itself to more than one household, or she doesn't want to run more than one.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

We are not keeping any from this litter anyway. Just my husband loves the tiny one and would like to but I have explained to him why we can't.

They are all doing fantastically. Huge gains this morning, tiny is now 85g  the biggest is 136g. Proud of Mia, she has been an excellent first time mum.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Glad they're all doing well, hope they continue to gain


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

CattingYou said:


> We are not keeping any from this litter anyway. Just my husband loves the tiny one and would like to but I have explained to him why we can't.
> 
> They are all doing fantastically. Huge gains this morning, tiny is now 85g  the biggest is 136g. Proud of Mia, she has been an excellent first time mum.


Sounds wise to me, and I'm so pleased they are doing well. Most cats are great mothers, though the two I've know that have had more than 1 litter (my Oriental and a BSH a friend had) were more relaxed with later litters.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

QOTN said:


> If you eventually decide to keep this little kitten because you love it, that will be the best possible reason. There may not be room in the future for one more breeding queen but does that really matter? I always feel saddened when breeding plans and show success become an obsession to the exclusion of all else. I have seen it happen so many times over the years. These things are the icing on the cake but not everybody likes icing and too much is definitely not good for you.
> 
> I admit I spent years of my life formulating breeding plans for new colours and showing my cats to popularise those colours. All that is transitory however and cannot begin to compare with the permanent bond you feel for your cats whether they are neuters that 'just stayed' or the girls that give you kittens and generously let you share the joys and sorrows of pregnancy, labour, lactaction, weaning and socialisation of their litters.
> 
> Just bear in mind you will want to keep many of the kittens you breed and you have to resist that temptation most of the time or you will have too many cats which will be bad for both you and them.


This exactely - and you dont have to make any decisions for a long while - I had a boy from my last litter who I never thought I was going to be able to part with for various reasons, he now has the most perfect home I could hope for which for many reasons is probably better than mine would of been.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

It will be diificult parting with them all but I will make sure they go to the best homes only. 

So I think one of the lilac ones may be a girl. I have a photo, what do you reckon?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Could be but it's not a very wonderful photo - it's not showing the area below the anus very well.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

It just has a hole right under its anus which obviously why I suspect it is a girl. Looks noticeably different to the other lilac one too. 

Here is a better pic of all of them.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

It just has a hole right under its anus which obviously why I suspect it is a girl. Looks noticeably different to the other lilac one too. 

Here is a better pic of all of them.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Looks like a girl to me


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Surely ignoring money issues can lead to not being able to afford the vet and so on? And although BSH tend to be laid-back cats not all of them are, and if you keep increasing the numbers in a house it's highly likely that eventually a cat will start reacting badly.
> 
> If the OP wants all her cats living in the house and thinks she can't bear to rehome a cat if that happens to her then caution about keeping kittens will help keep her breeding plans doing especially if her house doesn't lend itself to more than one household, or she doesn't want to run more than one.


Am not saying ignore money issues, plus if you have money issues you shouldn't be breeding in the first place

Like I said a good set up reduces the stress , planning is key


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Cosmills said:


> If it came down to money we woundnt do half the things in life that we do ..





Cosmills said:


> Am not saying ignore money issues, plus if you have money issues you shouldn't be breeding in the first place


Dunno how to reconcile these two comments.


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

So kittens are doing great and gaining lots of weight. All except the tiny one. She was 88g yesterday and is the same again today. She is literally half the size of the rest now, poor thing. She is still active and feeding okay when she isn't being pushed out.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Glad they all seem to be doing so well - they look adorable.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_I would love to see more pictures when you have time._


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## CattingYou (Jan 28, 2014)

This is them yesterday.

I tried putting them in the lovely big box I got for them but Mia kept moving them back into this dog crate that my mother in law gave to me! 

They are all still doing great, 8 days old now. The tiny one is still tiny, she's 122g but she's still here and can be found at the milk bar fighting her corner more than the others.


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