# "Amateur" Breeding



## Bilai (Jun 3, 2015)

In many ways this is more of a Dog Breeding question but I have never been to those forums so I'm asking here - I know a lot of you have both!

Now before I start let me just say that the idea of "amateur" breeding - whatever the animal - has always been baffling to me. I see no reason for it and have no interest in it.

I wondered however - is there a difference in the dog and cat worlds? Is it more common / accepted to breed a dog even if you're not a registered pedigree breeder? I ask because I was recently visiting a friend's family home and overheard chit chat about breeding the family dogs. It startled me as they're a fairly well-educated bunch. 

I didn't say anything and I'm wondering if I should have? I presume the situation with dogs in rescues is just as bad as with cats?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I think most if not all good cat breeders are 'amateurs' because they do not earn their living from breeding. Quite the reverse. Breeding usually requires substantial financial input.

In cats there are no registered pedigree *breeders*. Instead the *cats* are registered. (Sorry if that is not the question you are asking.)


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Bilai said:


> In many ways this is more of a Dog Breeding question but I have never been to those forums so I'm asking here - I know a lot of you have both!
> 
> Now before I start let me just say that the idea of "amateur" breeding - whatever the animal - has always been baffling to me. I see no reason for it and have no interest in it.
> 
> ...


The problem with amateur breeding is that a lot of people don't tend to do any research and what is actually involved in responsible ethical breeding and all that it entails. Unfortunately its not as simple as putting two dogs (or cats) for that matter together, let them get on with it and then hope a healthy happy litter of pups pop out problem free in about 62 days time. People still believe things like its best to let a female have a litter before they get spayed, because its good for the bitch to experience and have the joy of having puppies which is totally wrong but people still unfortunately believe it. Another reason is that they want a puppy because their dog is such a lovely dog so for sentimental reasons, both of which are totally wrong and not good enough reasons.

There is a lot more involved as regards breeding for health and temperament, and there are risks to the Mum too that needs to be taken into consideration, particularly if you are an amateur haven't researched and even thought about the health and welfare implications to Mum and pups. Its also very expensive to do it properly and very time consuming and a very big responsibility. Also dogs homes and breed rescues, and cat rescues are already trying to cope with dogs and puppies, cats and kittens of all ages that are already unwanted and looking for new homes, there is also that to consider and the responsibility of trying to find good and forever homes for any animals you breed too.


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## Bilai (Jun 3, 2015)

QOTN said:


> I think most if not all good cat breeders are 'amateurs' because they do not earn their living from breeding. Quite the reverse. Breeding usually requires substantial financial input.
> 
> In cats there are no registered pedigree *breeders*. Instead the *cats* are registered. (Sorry if that is not the question you are asking.)


I appreciate the clarity though. I did kind of know that but I had never thought about it.

I remember my cat Milo's breeder saying that she usually lost money or just about broke even.


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## Bilai (Jun 3, 2015)

My post was so rambling lol. I think my questions was just: is there something I'm missing that makes this - let's call it causal breeding - appropriate in the dog breeding world vs the cat breeding world?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Bilai said:


> My post was so rambling lol. I think my questions was just: is there something I'm missing that makes this - let's call it causal breeding - appropriate in the dog breeding world vs the cat breeding world?


Not really no. In order to do both you need time, commitment and money to fend off problems as they arise. Lots of people breed for lots of reasons. Many, sadly, do so out of laziness (not getting the animal neutered) especially in the case of cats. Others think that it'll be fun to have a litter of pups/kittens. Some want their children to 'experience the miracle of birth'. And then there are those who simply want to line their pockets. Both the cat and dog worlds suffer from those who fall into the categories above but it is not appropriate in either.


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## Bilai (Jun 3, 2015)

Sad really


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Sled dog hotel said:


> The problem with amateur breeding is that a lot of people don't tend to do any research and what is actually involved in responsible ethical breeding and all that it entails


Well that's me put well in my place after decades of breeding, a wealth of experience and knowledge gained, time given over to sitting on GCCF club committees and thousands spent on attending specialist seminars. Not once in all of that was I considered a professional breeder nor was it ever in any sense a business.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

havoc said:


> Well that's me put well in my place after decades of breeding, a wealth of experience and knowledge gained, time given over to sitting on GCCF club committees and thousands spent on attending specialist seminars. Not once in all of that was I considered a professional breeder nor was it ever in any sense a business.


Then I wouldn't call you an Amateur then your obviously highly experienced. I took the OPs post especially as he or she mentioned overhearing a friends family quote "chit chat" about breeding the family dog. to mean Amateur as without experience. We get many in the dog section people thinking its a good idea to breed their family dog irresponsibly and as a one off and then join because they haven't got a clue when the bitch is in whelp. They did say quote "In many ways this is a dog breeding question" which is why I also answered.

So although I may have misunderstood the OPs use of Amateur and may have taken it out of context, misunderstood and by the OPs own admission
"My post was so rambling lol. I think my questions was just: is there something I'm missing that makes this - let's call it causal breeding - appropriate in the dog breeding world vs the cat breeding world?" I don't see why you felt the particular need to quote my post and take offence, there was none intended, not aimed at you or anyone personally and was just general based on how I Perceived the opening question. If you have some sort of problem with me, then just come out and say it instead of quoting my post and going in to one.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Then I wouldn't call you an Amateur then your obviously highly experienced.


An *amateur* (French_amateur_ "lover of", from Old French and ultimately from Latin _amatorem_ nom. _amator_, "lover") is generally considered a person attached to a particular pursuit, study, or science in a non-professional or unpaid manner.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

havoc said:


> An *amateur* (French_amateur_ "lover of", from Old French and ultimately from Latin _amatorem_ nom. _amator_, "lover") is generally considered a person attached to a particular pursuit, study, or science in a non-professional or unpaid manner.


 I have already said that I have probably taken the use of the word Amateur out of context and misunderstood the original question. The answer was purely general based on how I perceived the question. If you have a problem with my answer then just come out any say it instead of making sarky posts and directing me to dictionary deffinitions of the word Amateur.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Thought it easier to copy and paste a definition than try to explain that experience has nothing to do with it. Good breeders are all about the love of it, always have been and always will be. We guard our amateur status with pride.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

havoc said:


> Thought it easier to copy and paste a definition than try to explain that experience has nothing to do with it. Good breeders are all about the love of it, always have been and always will be. We guard our amateur status with pride.


Maybe not experience so much everyone has to start somewhere after all, but research and knowledge about breeding then and the lack of nor bothering to do any, don't know what cat is section like but going by the number of threads on the dog section, there is a lot of people out there who are breeding and haven't the first clue what breeding is about as regards breeding for health temperament and the right reasons.

Like I said if you have a point to make, thought I had taken it out of context or even just didn't agree with my post, you could have just opened a discussion and "talked" it through instead of posting the way you did.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> We guard our amateur status with pride.


We do indeed, but think how many outside the Cat Fancy actually consider us to be 'amateurs'. Judging by the comments I've had on the phone and in emails, and even those of people posting on this very forum, a lot of people class us as professional cat breeders. The dictionary definition has very little to do with a label the general public use in day-to-day life.



Sled dog hotel said:


> don't know what cat is section like but going by the number of threads on the dog section, there is a lot of people out there who are breeding and haven't the first clue what breeding is about as regards breeding for health temperament and the right reasons.


Cat, dogs, horses .... you name it there will always be people who breed their pet without having the faintest idea what will happen, what can happen or even how it happens!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Tigermoon said:


> Judging by the comments I've had on the phone


Quickest rejection of a kitten enquiry ever - pick up phone and identify myself and caller says 'hello you're in the business of selling kittens'. My reply was politely negative


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> caller says 'hello you're in the business of selling kittens'. My reply was politely negative


LOL! I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall during that conversation


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It really was polite and very short. I simply told them if they were looking for someone in the business of selling kittens they'd got the wrong person. They rang off and that was that.

The best answer I've ever heard from a breeder was when the caller asked (as an initial question) if there was a discount for buying two. She said yes but the buyer had to choose which one she fed less


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> Quickest rejection of a kitten enquiry ever - pick up phone and identify myself and caller says 'hello you're in the business of selling kittens'. My reply was politely negative


I've had a rival:

Caller: Sorry to ring so late do you have any kittens?

Me: No. (puts phone down)

This was at 9:30pm!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> I've had a rival:
> 
> Caller: Sorry to ring so late do you have any kittens?
> 
> ...


I try to be patient with anything up to 10pm but I admit after nine rankles a bit.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I read the OP as meaning back yard breeders, people who just allow their cat or dog to breed with no thought. Probably just badly worded by OP 
I must admit though, I wouldn't call an experienced pedigree breeder 'casual' or 'amateur' either, doesn't sound quite right. The breeder I got Sam from thought of herself as a 'hobby' breeder I believe.
Anyway, just thought I'd wade in with my thoughts...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I did once get an email which just said
'how much r ur kittens'

Now I do always answer every enquiry so I typed '400' and pressed reply figuring if they didn't need a question mark they could do without the pound symbol


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

moggie14 said:


> The breeder I got Sam from thought of herself as a 'hobby' breeder I believe.


Enthusiastic hobbyist is probably the best description - but then that is an amateur. It is interesting that amateur is term we admire in our top athletes but is now often used in a more derogatory way in other fields.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> I did once get an email which just said 'how much r ur kittens'


Yes this sort of enquiry is becoming more common annoyingly. I have a stock reply which I send out to all enquiries anyway which I adapt if necessary. But I do wish people would realise how rude "Do you have any kittens?" or "How much are your kittens?" is :Banghead


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Tigermoon said:


> Yes this sort of enquiry is becoming more common annoyingly. I have a stock reply which I send out to all enquiries anyway which I adapt if necessary. But I do wish people would realise how rude "Do you have any kittens?" or "How much are your kittens?" is :Banghead


It is for this reason I won't accept any kitten enquiries without a submitted questionnaire. They won't even get a courtesy email as they have no courtesy of their own!


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## Bilai (Jun 3, 2015)

moggie14 said:


> I read the OP as meaning back yard breeders, people who just allow their cat or dog to breed with no thought. Probably just badly worded by OP
> I must admit though, I wouldn't call an experienced pedigree breeder 'casual' or 'amateur' either, doesn't sound quite right. The breeder I got Sam from thought of herself as a 'hobby' breeder I believe.
> Anyway, just thought I'd wade in with my thoughts...


I should clarify that I meant people who don't normally breed but have chosen to do it as a one-off or two-off etc. when I spoke about "amateur" and then later "casual" breeding.

I didn't mean to imply that experienced breeders were "professional" in the business sense either - just that they couldn't be considered amateurs by virtue of that experience.

My original question was also just out of curioisity because I know that this type random breeding is definitely not considered to be approrpiate in the cat world... I thought it must be the same with dogs so I was surprised to hear people discussing this so genially in a party situation.

I then just wanted to check if perhaps I was missing something and there was more acceptance of what I called "casual" breeding when it comes to dogs.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Rufus15 said:


> It is for this reason I won't accept any kitten enquiries without a submitted questionnaire


Interesting. When I got my last dog I immediately ruled out a breeder who replied with a questionnaire.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> Interesting. When I got my last dog I immediately ruled out a breeder who replied with a questionnaire.


I have to admit i don't think I could be bothered to complete one either.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Bilai said:


> I then just wanted to check if perhaps I was missing something and there was more acceptance of what I called "casual" breeding when it comes to dogs.


No there isn't. Speak to any breeder who breeds and registers within the kennel club rules and they will tell you that people who breed from their pet are an unmitigated nuisance.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> It is for this reason I won't accept any kitten enquiries without a submitted questionnaire. They won't even get a courtesy email as they have no courtesy of their own!


I had a truely unpromising text enquiry for a kitten in my first litter. They turned out to be delightful and he has a splendid home.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I don't mind texts or short initial emails.

I prefer to converse and find out what I need to know rather than sending a questionnaire.
But we all do things differently with what works best for us.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> I had a truely unpromising text enquiry for a kitten in my first litter. They turned out to be delightful and he has a splendid home.


Yes I've have had a similar experience which is why I reply to all enquiries because you just never know


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Tigermoon said:


> I have to admit i don't think I could be bothered to complete one either.


It isn't so much can't be bothered as I can't really see any use in them. I can read people much better in individual emails and over the phone and the conversation isn't rigidly structured. Every enquiry is different and I like to respond individually so I'd like the same when I'm the buyer.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

While I personally fully understand what the word 'amateur' means, I must admit that in general parlance these days it seems to be used to refer to someone doing something without experience or training; or, at the very least, a casual participant in something.

Difficult to pick the correct word to describe the people to whom @Bilai is referring. Casual seems to be a good one, since it implies a lack of dedication and is something that good breeders cannot be labelled.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I think it's different strokes for different folks. Many people I have spoken to who are looking for a kitten have no problem filling in a questionnaire, especially when it's followed up by a phone conversation for a proper chat. I don't base homes purely on a questionnaire as that would be ludicrous, but it will help weed out ridiculous enquiries.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Rufus15 said:


> I don't base homes purely on a questionnaire as that would be ludicrous, but it will help weed out ridiculous enquiries.


Honestly interested in this. What sort of things do you ask? On most questionnaires of this nature it's pretty obvious what the 'right' answer is. Is it a tick box type of thing or are you asking more in depth questions requiring serious input from your enquirers? One of the things I didn't like about the questionnaire I was sent was just how much personal information the breeder wanted - exactly the sort of information we're told not to give out to strangers.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

havoc said:


> Honestly interested in this. What sort of things do you ask? On most questionnaires of this nature it's pretty obvious what the 'right' answer is. Is it a tick box type of thing or are you asking more in depth questions requiring serious input from your enquirers? One of the things I didn't like about the questionnaire I was sent was just how much personal information the breeder wanted - exactly the sort of information we're told not to give out to strangers.


Mine is quite basic and open ended. It asks for contact details, have owned a cat before, have they owned a Maine Coon before and can they provide brief details. What would they do in the event of illness and bad behaviour. Are they interested in showing. Do they have any colour or gender preferences. I ask if they work, but don't ask for details of that work - instead I follow up with asking who will be the main kitten carer.

There's no right or wrong answers for me, I'm using it as a springboard to ask more questions about the potential families and get and proper feel for them through the phone call and subsequent visit.


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