# it's about time



## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

..........................................


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I'd like to see how he will deal with this.We can't stop anyone coming in from the EU. His stupid sidekick Clegg raised this very issue during the election campaign.*


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Is that legitimate and illegal ones ??

Does that include people who are genuinely seeking asylum ?

You might as well just say they cant come rather than letting them come and then giving them no help (watch crime rates soar if that happens as these people will have to feed themelves somehow, can't expect them to starve and if they aren't in the system they stand little chance of legitimate tax paying employment)  

The only way to solve the massive benefit issue in this country is to sort the wheat from the chaff and that applies to ALL races including OUR OWN !!


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

My step dad works with the young asylum seeker boys that come into the country alone with no family, he has to drive them to court appearances, take them to hospital, buys them TV and TV licenses !!! They get soo much help and support i doubt our young ones leaving our care system get


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## bigdaddy (Feb 5, 2011)

candysmum said:


> I just heard the news this morning
> 
> Now I am not racist.
> 
> ...


well this should have been done years ago


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

................................


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

It's on the BBC website:

BBC News - Cameron promises to cut immigration to &#039;1980s&#039; levels&#039;


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

It would certainly be a good step forward, benefit wise that has been a long time coming. I cant see them stopping them coming in, shame though it needs to stop we are in no situation to be taking on any more freeloaders, we have enough of our own.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

As long as at the same time they target benefit frauds from this country, and get them off their backsides and contributing, perhaps we may actually get somewhere as a country, instead of slowly spiralling down the drain.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Perhaps a good start would be to do away with the 14year rule that allows ILLEGAL immigrants to stay here.*


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

.......................


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## Bwy39 (Apr 12, 2011)

This is a subject so emotive and explosive it could run on and on as people will claim they are not racist but just want all aliens removed from UK.

I have my own opinion and this is not the place for me to express it.

I have no objection to foreign people living in UK PROVIDING.........

a. they learn the language.

b. they respect our religious beliefs.

c. they obey our laws.

d. they do NOT attempt to force their religion or beliefs on us.

e. they understand this is OUR country not theirs and if they don't like anything they go home respecting the fact we did not invite them to live here they chose to do so.

One thing which is guaranteed to wind me up is when I see official documents written in so many different languages and this is UK......yer right !!!!!

Those of you who are alert will perhaps notice I have not said they should work for a living. My reason is this, if we don't expect our own people to work and support them so they earn more on benefit than in a job, then why should we expect foreigners to work.

Please note that for legal reasons I am not a racist.......


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

The problem I have with this is that it refers mostly to people outside of the EU. Well, there's so many damn countries now IN the EU that it barely helps us at all.

When Poland joined the EU ranks, almost every othere country put a limit on the the number of Poles allowed into the country - did the UK do this??? Did it feck as like. :cursing: The result being that we now have almost as many Polish residents as Poland!!!! 

When I walk through my local town, or around my local supermarket, I am LUCKY if I hear anyone speaking English anymore.... 

Cameron might be able to slow down non-EU immegration but, until he puts in a limit on EU immegration, we're still b*lloxed!!!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

MoggyBaby said:


> The problem I have with this is that it refers mostly to people outside of the EU. Well, there's so many damn countries now IN the EU that it barely helps us at all.
> 
> When Poland joined the EU ranks, almost every othere country put a limit on the the number of Poles allowed into the country - did the UK do this??? Did it feck as like. :cursing: The result being that we now have almost as many Polish residents as Poland!!!!
> 
> ...


*The thing is with the EU there's nothing we can do about it.Pity they didn't think this through properly in the first place.*


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *The thing is with the EU there's nothing we can do about it.Pity they didn't think this through properly in the first place.*


EXACTLY!!!!!

Germany, France, Spain - They ALL put a limit on so why didn't we??????

Our previous government really WEREN'T the brightest buttons in the sewing box....


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bwy39 said:


> This is a subject so emotive and explosive it could run on and on as people will claim they are not racist but just want all aliens removed from UK.
> 
> I have my own opinion and this is not the place for me to express it.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, most countries do speak English as a second or third language at least, but culturally many aren't taught, so that point is a little bit difficult. I've visited and lived in countries where I didn't know, or was expected to learn their language, which is a good job for me as I'm rubbish at languages (except English  ).

The key thing is respect, as it is with most things in life. I was disgusted by the poppy day burning incident, and even more disgusted to learn that they were on benefits; the very people they were dishonouring died so they can claim benefits in this country. That sort of person needs a kick up the backside and told to either get out, or get on and contribute, not divide, no matter where they're from or what their ethnic background


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

MoggyBaby said:


> The problem I have with this is that it refers mostly to people outside of the EU. Well, there's so many damn countries now IN the EU that it barely helps us at all.
> 
> When Poland joined the EU ranks, almost every other country put a limit on the the number of Poles allowed into the country - did the UK do this??? Did it feck as like. :cursing: The result being that we now have almost as many Polish residents as Poland!!!!
> 
> ...


We have polish supermarket and shops in our town and even Asda has a row of Polish food now  I do work with a lot of Polish and they seem to have a very good work ethic, i can't say the same for the Slovakians who lived next door to my mum and beat my step dad black and blue for asking them to turn there music down :mad5:


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> We have polish supermarket and shops in our town and even Asda has a row of Polish food now  I do work with a lot of Polish and they seem to have a very good work ethic, i can't say the same for the Slovakians who lived next door to my mum and beat my step dad black and blue for asking them to turn there music down :mad5:


We also have quite a few Polski shops where I live and EVERY supermarket has a 'foreign' shelf.

My OH works with quite a lot of Polish people and his comments are not repeatable here. One in particular, keeps playing the racist & harrassment cards every time his boss tells him to do something or asks him a question. He recently tried to accuse a fellow worker of bullying & aggression but when they played back the CCTV it was as clear as anything that HE was the aggressor. 

I often see them, especially coming into the summer months, standing drinking cans of beer on their doorsteps at 8 in the morning. This looks REALLY good to all the schoolkids walking past going to school. What an example for them to see!!!

I *DO* appreciate that not all EU immigrants are like this, and I shouldn't tar them all with the same brush, but I see too many that are to fully enjoy their presence in the UK.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

difficult one really their are those that openly say they hate our country but will live off our state benifits, maybe he should sart with those people, but their are also alot of people who screw our system fall stop that should be stopped, but the problem has become so massive now they are going to have to do a section at a time.


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## Bwy39 (Apr 12, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Hmmm, most countries do speak English as a second or third language at least, but culturally many aren't taught, so that point is a little bit difficult. I've visited and lived in countries where I didn't know, or was expected to learn their language, which is a good job for me as I'm rubbish at languages (except English  ).
> 
> The key thing is respect, as it is with most things in life. I was disgusted by the poppy day burning incident, and even more disgusted to learn that they were on benefits; the very people they were dishonouring died so they can claim benefits in this country. That sort of person needs a kick up the backside and told to either get out, or get on and contribute, not divide, no matter where they're from or what their ethnic background


We all have our opinions on any point we are interested in.
My opinion is that if I wanted to live in another country then I make the effort to integrate and that includes learning the language. This is why I speak German as a second language.

I would not expect to go and live in another country and expect them to lean MY language just because I can't speak theirs.

This is a well known problem with English people. We expect the world to use our language just because we find it difficult to lean another. We then complain about "foreign" people not speaking English in the UK.
If you are not prepared to learn the language then go live in an English speaking country.

Please note that due to legal reasons I am not a racist.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

.............................


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

candysmum said:


> i never said i wanted them all removed from the UK.
> 
> The ones that wont help our country yes.
> 
> ...


Is that the fabulous Henry 8th who was a nasty evil Bastard and had most of his 6 wives executed Oh and altered the countries religion so he could do it legitamately  Oh yead thats something to be REALLY proud of as a country !!!

Can you please list all the things that have fundamentally negatively changed in YOUR life as a direct result of immigration in the last 15 years.

NO stories repeated from the media please only things that have directly affected YOU


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

.......................


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

bigdaddy said:


> well this should have been done years ago


I wa about to say not before time!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Is that the fabulous Henry 8th who was a nasty evil Bastard and had most of his 7 wives executed Oh and altered the countries religion so he could do it legitamately  Oh yead thats something to be REALLY proud of as a country !!!
> 
> Can you please list all the things that have fundamentally negatively changed in YOUR life as a direct result of immigration in the last 15 years.
> 
> NO stories repeated from the media please only things that have directly affected YOU


The social housing market for starters Rainbows! Mr DT lived in a nissan hut until he were four years old! it never did him any harm and it won't do them any either!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Here is a recent link:

David Cameron's immigration speech sparks row - India - DNA

in case anyone is unsure of what Cameron's speech entailed.

I'm not really sure on what he said to be honest. Just a bit mmmmmmmm?!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

candysmum said:


> lol No i can't and i wasn't talking about all the things he did which were bad but the country was more united to a point back then than it is now and i'm sure he had 6 wives
> 
> Ok maybe that was a bad example!!


At least he were married to em! and consequently provided for em! then he despatched em so the tax payers weren't paying for em!

DT runs like hell!


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

I think the issue definitely needs addressing, but whether the government will or not remains to be seen. I'd personally rather leave the EU, for too many reasons to mention. It would be easier to address the problem with lifelong benefit claimants born here without the additional pressure of people from other countries with the same work-shy attitude. It's a depressing thought that there are streets of families were no one in the household has ever worked, it makes it harder for the children to gain any kind of work ethic living in these circumstances so the cycle is likely to continue...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> At least he were married to em! and consequently provided for em! then he despatched em so the tax payers weren't paying for em!
> 
> DT runs like hell!


Umm DT, what are you doing out of your shed(s)??


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

candysmum said:


> I just heard the news this morning
> 
> Now I am not racist.
> 
> ...


What a great post and so true. Well said, will rep you for it.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Umm DT, what are you doing out of your shed(s)??


Rainybows on the warpath! someone told her where I was hiding! and I caught a glimpse of a strange looking garden ornament in the corner of the shed! I glimpsed again and OMG that could be rainybow! so I ran like bloody hell


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

I know this is an emotive subject and I honestly couldn't give a flying eff about someone's colour/religion/creed.

But I think the way the government treats everyone creates ism's. It seems as though immigrants (not just imigrants - drug addicts, alcoholics, criminals) are treated better, and helped more than people who work full time jobs, pay taxes and generally contribute to society. So I can understand why people react when 'our' government treats the English as second class citizens. Yet goes out of it's way to help immigrants.

Just to clarify, I AM NOT condoning racism in any way shape or form, racism to me is disliking someone simply because of colour - that is deplorable in every way and I find it hard to believe it's still even an issue in 2011. To be, this isn't an issue of race - it's about treating everyone the same and in some cases looking after British people first, this is after all Britain.

I'm a carer, according to the princes trust carers save the government between 67 and 87 billion a year. Yet all I'm entitled to is £53 per week, I work 24/7. So that's 31p an hour. Yet an immigrant walks into the country, gets a house, benifits, TV etc. How is that fair? Surely I should be entitled to the same.

A friend of mine used to work in an electrical shop, and immigrants would often come in to buy plasma TV's, for the houses they'd just been put in. The money came from government grants they were given to help set themselves up in the house they'd been given. Some had only been in the country a matter of hours. 

I know that's not the case for all and that I'm generalising. But something needs to be done. I've no idea what though.

Just my opinion.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

candysmum said:


> lol No i can't and i wasn't talking about all the things he did which were bad but the country was more united to a point back then than it is now and i'm sure he had 6 wives
> 
> Ok maybe that was a bad example!!


lol, never was any good at history but you cant name a single negative impact these people have had directly on your life yet you started this thread. I find that amazing really. Do you see what i am saying ??

Now i agree with the next person that our benefits system needs a long overdue "sorting" but i hate all this inference that it is "them" that are ruining our country with "their" ways. As soon as anyone starts making statements using words like "i am not racist but...." it is generally followed by sweeping statements about "them" which seems to effectively condemn or write off or lump together an entire group of people. I would imagine that if "they" read some of the stuff on here at the moment "they" would be pretty offended .


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

I am not a racist, i was brought up to believe people are people, regardless of colour, creed etc and i've always respected that. What i can't stand is people who are capable of work but choose to stay on benefits because they cannot be bothered with the hassle of work(OH's parents, best friends parents for a couple of examples)

I'm 19 and don't qualify for any form of benefit and have lived in poverty...for the last 7 months i've been living on £30 a month thanks to the student bursary people messing up my assessment and i am finding it incredibly hard to get any kind of part time job relatively near me but i still can't get any help. My OH is going back to work full time at the end of the month so is currently on jobseekers but they've only given him £60 over the last 4 months as they keep saying he gets paid for the 1 day a week he does voluntary work...he's had to sign the same form saying he's not being paid about 8 times and recently they decided he wasn't and will now get the £54 a week...with only 3 weeks left!!!

anyway, back to topic...i'm not racist, i've met plenty people of all races both nice and nasty and i'm happy for them to come to Britain if they're willing to work rather than come over and sit on their backsides while all the taxpayers pay for them to stay in the UK.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> lol, never was any good at history but you cant name a single negative impact these people have had directly on your life yet you started this thread. I find that amazing really. Do you see what i am saying ??
> 
> Now i agree with the next person that our benefits system needs a long overdue "sorting" but i hate all this inference that it is "them" that are ruining our country with "their" ways. As soon as anyone starts making statements using words like "i am not racist but...." it is generally followed by sweeping statements about "them" which seems to effectively condemn or write off or lump together an entire group of people. I would imagine that if "they" read some of the stuff on here at the moment "they" would be pretty offended .


I don't see a problem with Candysmums opening thread! she were merely relaying breaking news that many have been mubbling about for yonks!

We, the country need to make cutbacks, we have to start somewhere! and in my book charity starts at home! Hence the reason I have of late cancelled MOst of my charity standing orders! coz me like the rest of the UK are feeling the pinch! The UK needs to cease being the free haven pushover that it has been for so long!
lol
DT


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> lol, never was any good at history but you cant name a single negative impact these people have had directly on your life yet you started this thread. I find that amazing really. Do you see what i am saying ??
> 
> Now i agree with the next person that our benefits system needs a long overdue "sorting" but i hate all this inference that it is "them" that are ruining our country with "their" ways. As soon as anyone starts making statements using words like "i am not racist but...." it is generally followed by sweeping statements about "them" which seems to effectively condemn or write off or lump together an entire group of people. I would imagine that if "they" read some of the stuff on here at the moment "they" would be pretty offended .


*Dress it up anyway you like but there IS a them and us sittuation in this country.Now by makeing that statement i can't see how that can be classed as racist unless someone WANTS to view it that way.*


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

And before we go into forum war let me warn you that tonight black IS white in my house!


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## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> lol, never was any good at history but you cant name a single negative impact these people have had directly on your life yet you started this thread. I find that amazing really. Do you see what i am saying ??
> 
> Now i agree with the next person that our benefits system needs a long overdue "sorting" but i hate all this inference that it is "them" that are ruining our country with "their" ways. As soon as anyone starts making statements using words like "i am not racist but...." it is generally followed by sweeping statements about "them" which seems to effectively condemn or write off or lump together an entire group of people. I would imagine that if "they" read some of the stuff on here at the moment "they" would be pretty offended .


Lol you sound like me! I was at a family do a while back and everyone there was moaning about bloody immigrants blah blah blah stealing our jobs blah blah and so I said 'hands up anybody in this room who has had their job stolen by an immigrant' no one said anything...

They were also moaning about the amount of immigrants that are in the UK yet they didn't know - or even have a vague idea of numbers of immigrants that have come into the UK, totally no clue at all whatsoever.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

kaz_f said:


> Lol you sound like me! I was at a family do a while back and everyone there was moaning about bloody immigrants blah blah blah stealing our jobs blah blah and so I said 'hands up anybody in this room who has had their job stolen by an immigrant' no one said anything...
> 
> They were also moaning about the amount of immigrants that are in the UK yet they didn't know - or even have a vague idea of numbers of immigrants that have come into the UK, totally no clue at all whatsoever.


I am not moaning about immigrents stealing our jobs! (many idle white barstools don't want ot work) I am moaning about all the handouts we give! and the social housing that is taken up by housing such!

And! I do have a clue!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I don't see a problem with Candysmums opening thread! she were merely relaying breaking news that many have been mubbling about for yonks!
> 
> We, the country need to make cutbacks, we have to start somewhere! and in my book charity starts at home! Hence the reason I have of late cancelled MOst of my charity standing orders! coz me like the rest of the UK are feeling the pinch! The UK needs to cease being the free haven pushover that it has been for so long!
> lol
> DT


No DT the country needs to get a proper fecking backbone and instead of blaming its woes on others it needs to grab its politicians by the hollyhocks and tell them in no uncertain terms that WE do not need to pay to get out of this mess at all it's the greedy feckers who have tax dodged this country into the ground !! THATS the reality. WE are not all in this together THEY ****** us up and like muppets we all think somehow WE have to pay  So we in turn feel that is unjust but any anger we have should be levied FIRMLY at the banks and big businesses who led us and our half wit politicians to this point !!!


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## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I am not moaning about immigrents stealing our jobs! (many idle white barstools don't want ot work) I am moaning about all the handouts we give! and the social housing that is taken up by housing such!
> 
> And! I do have a clue!


Cool - my family don't though they just chew the fat about stuff they don't know about. I wasn't meaning you


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> No DT the country needs to get a proper fecking backbone and instead of blaming its woes on others it needs to grab its politicians by the hollyhocks and tell them in no uncertain terms that WE do not need to pay to get out of this mess at all it's the greedy feckers who have tax dodged this country into the ground !! THATS the reality. WE are not all in this together THEY ****** us up and like muppets we all think somehow WE have to pay  So we in turn feel that is unjust but any anger we have should be levied FIRMLY at the banks and big businesses who led us and our half wit politicians to this point !!!


Rainybow! NOT a fan of the bankers nor the tax dodgers by a long chalk but do you not think that sometimes, just sometimesthese guys think to themselfs heck Ive paid 40#%(whatever) tax outto what ive earned why the hell should I pay more! Do you know how many of these races work - because believe you me the profits they make the taxes they pay does NOT stay in this country! never has never will!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Rainybow! NOT a fan of the bankers nor the tax dodgers by a long chalk but do you not think that sometimes, just sometimesthese guys think to themselfs heck Ive paid 40#%(whatever) tax outto what ive earned why the hell should I pay more! Do you know how many of these races work - because believe you me the profits they make the taxes they pay does NOT stay in this country! never has never will!


That is irrelevant, your point was that WE all need to make cutbacks and thats Bull. I am not talking about Mr £100K diddling his books i am talking about the likes of Mr Tesco (i know you are a fan) earning HUUUUUGE profits and paying virtually F All. Many many many maaaaaany business the same and the banks nearly bankrupt this country WTF are they not in this whole "all in this together" malarky ????

As far as i am concerned we should remain as we always have sympathetic to GENUINE asylum eekers and grateful to other immigrants who choose to come here and make a better life for themselves doing jobs we can't fill and contributing to our society.

Take the non British workers out the care system and where will that be ????

I am still waiting for lots of accounts from people about how they personally have been directly affected by legitimate immigrants receiving benefits


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

We should never have joined the EU, or the Common Market as it was called years ago. I voted 'No' in fact at the time a lot of people I spoke to also had voted 'No' so how the hell did we get in??? Thank goodness we still have our own currency.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> That is irrelevant, your point was that WE all need to make cutbacks and thats Bull. I am not talking about Mr £100K diddling his books i am talking about the likes of Mr Tesco (i know you are a fan) earning HUUUUUGE profits and paying virtually F All. Many many many maaaaaany business the same and the banks nearly bankrupt this country WTF are they not in this whole "all in this together" malarky ????
> 
> As far as i am concerned we should remain as we always have sympathetic to GENUINE asylum eekers and grateful to other immigrants who choose to come here and make a better life for themselves doing jobs we can't fill and contributing to our society.
> 
> ...


Tesco's is another thread Rainybows, you knows that! I knows that!
Now for starters i shall encounter to tell you how the immigrants have 
affected the benifit system! They have taken over a precentage of the social housing that is available - if this housing is taken out of the equasion then the councils are still oblidged to provide housing for 'others' they therefore have to look to the private sectors where the rent is perhaps four times that of what a council house woud be!

Balls in your court!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

My husband is an immigrant. He came to this country from Germany when he was six years old, along with his mother (who married an Englishman). He is now 59 years old. He attended school in this country, did an apprenticeship in this country, and has worked in this country all his life, paying taxes and national insurance to this country. And meanwhile there are idle people who were actually born in this country who don't want to work, who have no intention of working, who have never paid anything into the system in their lives, and exist on benefits that my husband - and other immigrant like him - have paid for with their taxes and national insurance. 

So why the hell do all you racists want people like him out of the country? And saying "I'm not racist but" is a load of bullshit. If you are truly not racist you would not need to put such a prefix on what you are about to say. :mad5: :mad5:


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Valanita said:


> We should never have joined the EU, or the Common Market as it was called years ago. I voted 'No' in fact at the time a lot of people I spoke to also had voted 'No' so how the hell did we get in??? Thank goodness we still have our own currency.


Hear hear!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Tesco's is another thread Rainybows, you knows that! I knows that!
> Now for starters i shall encounter to tell you how the immigrants have
> affected the benifit system! They have taken over a precentage of the social housing that is available - if this housing is taken out of the equasion then the councils are still oblidged to provide housing for 'others' they therefore have to look to the private sectors where the rent is perhaps four times that of what a council house woud be!
> 
> Balls in your court!


And that directly negatively affects your life how exactly ???


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> My husband is an immigrant. He came to this country from Germany when he was six years old, along with his mother (who married an Englishman). He is now 59 years old. He attended school in this country, did an apprenticeship in this country, and has worked in this country all his life, paying taxes and national insurance to this country. And meanwhile there are idle people who were actually born in this country who don't want to work, who have no intention of working, who have never paid anything into the system in their lives, and exist on benefits that my husband - and other immigrant like him - have paid for with their taxes and national insurance.
> 
> So why the hell do all you racists want people like him out of the country? And saying "I'm not racist but" is a load of bullshit. If you are truly not racist you would not need to put such a prefix on what you are about to say. :mad5: :mad5:


I dont think anyone considers your husband nor the likes of as immigrants, we are referring to those that a seeking a better way of life in the UK, often enhanced by the benifits system.


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> My husband is an immigrant. He came to this country from Germany when he was six years old, along with his mother (who married an Englishman). He is now 59 years old. He attended school in this country, did an apprenticeship in this country, and has worked in this country all his life, paying taxes and national insurance to this country. And meanwhile there are idle people who were actually born in this country who don't want to work, who have no intention of working, who have never paid anything into the system in their lives, and exist on benefits that my husband - and other immigrant like him - have paid for with their taxes and national insurance.
> 
> So why the hell do all you racists want people like him out of the country? And saying "I'm not racist but" is a load of bullshit. If you are truly not racist you would not need to put such a prefix on what you are about to say. :mad5: :mad5:


We are not against people like your OH, Spellweaver. I had an Uncle by marriage who was my husbands' Aunties husband. He was a prisoner of war here & never went back to Germany after, settled down, steady job, got married & had a Daughter. He was a nice man.
We dislike the immigrants who come here to live, sponge off the state, or, if they do have jobs, put nothing into our economy, because all their money is sent home. They pay as little as they can for basic needs, I have seen them at car boot sales harrassing sellers.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> My husband is an immigrant. He came to this country from Germany when he was six years old, along with his mother (who married an Englishman). He is now 59 years old. He attended school in this country, did an apprenticeship in this country, and has worked in this country all his life, paying taxes and national insurance to this country. And meanwhile there are idle people who were actually born in this country who don't want to work, who have no intention of working, who have never paid anything into the system in their lives, and exist on benefits that my husband - and other immigrant like him - have paid for with their taxes and national insurance.
> 
> So why the hell do all you racists want people like him out of the country? And saying "I'm not racist but" is a load of bullshit. If you are truly not racist you would not need to put such a prefix on what you are about to say. :mad5: :mad5:


*Val, is it racist to want our country back to how it was? or to say its about time we stopped immigration? I honestly don't see it as being racist and i sure as hell don't mean it to come across as such.The fact is,we live on a small island and its time,imo we started sorting out the problems we already have and with the people we already have.*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> My husband is an immigrant. He came to this country from Germany when he was six years old, along with his mother (who married an Englishman). He is now 59 years old. He attended school in this country, did an apprenticeship in this country, and has worked in this country all his life, paying taxes and national insurance to this country. And meanwhile there are idle people who were actually born in this country who don't want to work, who have no intention of working, who have never paid anything into the system in their lives, and exist on benefits that my husband - and other immigrant like him - have paid for with their taxes and national insurance.
> 
> So why the hell do all you racists want people like him out of the country? And saying "I'm not racist but" is a load of bullshit. If you are truly not racist you would not need to put such a prefix on what you are about to say. :mad5: :mad5:


Not at all in fact its the likes of your huband we want and need in this country, its nothing too do with them coming from another country it coming from another country and fleecing this one.
Its very different someone coming from germany,france etc gaining an education then giving something back, they dont come over in droves and disrespect our culture.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> My husband is an immigrant. He came to this country from Germany when he was six years old, along with his mother (who married an Englishman). He is now 59 years old. He attended school in this country, did an apprenticeship in this country, and has worked in this country all his life, paying taxes and national insurance to this country. And meanwhile there are idle people who were actually born in this country who don't want to work, who have no intention of working, who have never paid anything into the system in their lives, and exist on benefits that my husband - and other immigrant like him - have paid for with their taxes and national insurance.
> 
> So why the hell do all you racists want people like him out of the country? And saying "I'm not racist but" is a load of bullshit. If you are truly not racist you would not need to put such a prefix on what you are about to say. :mad5: :mad5:


I'm not racist, so please don't accuse me of being so. I didn't once say I wanted them out of the country, I couldn't give a crap who lives here. Where they're from and what colour they are. I don't even give a crap if they 'conform' to our 'ways'. They can wear what they want, believe what they want etc. I don't care.

What I want is equality.

If an immigrant comes into this country they should contribute, lazy English barstools who live on benefits with zero intention of working should contribute. What I'm saying is the government treats the English lazy barstools completely differently to the immigrant lazy barstools. And that's what I have a problem with. Not the fact that they were born somewhere else.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Not at all in fact its the likes of your huband we want and need in this country, its nothing too do with them coming from another country it coming from another country and fleecing this one.
> Its very different someone coming from germany,france etc gaining an education then giving something back, they dont come over in droves and disrespect our culture.


My two best friends !
I can put piccys up
One -is nearly seventy - her father is polish!
The other her mother is german he father british (both deseased) her father whilst in the war found her mother staving in a cellar (hiding from the nazis) and brought her back to the UK!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> But all that Haveymolly says it true rainybows! That is EXACTLY like it is!


A) No DT it isn't not everywhere not everyone. I do have immigrants in my area, quite alot actually in various guises, plenty of students, lots of field workers, some who work in the Research and Development buinesses Cambridge is famous for and it is NOT like that here. Biggest issue we have is the drunk homeless people who descend in the summer and tbh it's a travesty that we can't as a "rich" nation resolve that problem too but most of those sadly are passed help.

B) You cannot make statements like that and then still maintain you aren't rascist, i am sorry if that offend but it's true.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Let get this clear. Wanting this country to sort out its immigration issue is NOT rascist, being honest about the problems it causes to you personally is NOT rascist BUT using language that generalizes about an entire race or making statements about disliking an entire race IS rascist. 

You may not mean it to be you may not want to cause offence and upset to other people reading these threads but the fact is that these statements do and have caused offence and upset and i for one think thats sad. 

It is also against the Rules of the forum tbh and there is a good reason for that


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Let get this clear. Wanting this country to sort out its immigration issue is NOT rascist, being honest about the problems it causes to you personally is NOT rascist BUT using language that generalizes about an entire race or making statements about disliking an entire race IS rascist.
> 
> You may not mean it to be you may not want to cause offence and upset to other people reading these threads but the fact is that these statements do and have caused offence and upset and i for one think thats sad.
> 
> It is also against the Rules of the forum tbh and there is a good reason for that


*lmao But its ok for OUR prime minister to talk on the subject? We pay him to do his job remember.*


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> A) No DT it isn't not everywhere not everyone. I do have immigrants in my area, quite alot actually in various guises, plenty of students, lots of field workers, some who work in the Research and Development buinesses Cambridge is famous for and it is NOT like that here. Biggest issue we have is the drunk homeless people who descend in the summer and tbh it's a travesty that we can't as a "rich" nation resolve that problem too but most of those sadly are passed help.
> 
> B) You cannot make statements like that and then still maintain you aren't rascist, i am sorry if that offend but it's true.


Depends on ones interputation of racist Rainybows! I believe that the UK has been an easy touch for too long! and it that means then I have to be labelled racist then so be it! I can live with that!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

So why when we get threads on the british teenage mums having children as an occupation, british people that wont work and scrounge of the system, we are not been racist then and calling a whole race we are talking about individuals ok in large numbers but they are british so discussing the same but just happen to be muslims is racist and shocking i really dont get it, well no i do actually this is the problem this is why they get away with so much because they are muslims and pc that now rules and ruins this country.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *lmao But its ok for OUR prime minister to talk on the subject? We pay him to do his job remember.*


Thats up to him and it is his job, like i said there is no issue with discussing immigration and applying measures that isn't rascist.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I dont think anyone considers your husband nor the likes of as immigrants, we are referring to those that a seeking a better way of life in the UK, often enhanced by the benifits system.





Valanita said:


> We are not against people like your OH, Spellweaver. I had an Uncle by marriage who was my husbands' Aunties husband. He was a prisoner of war here & never went back to Germany after, settled down, steady job, got married & had a Daughter. He was a nice man.
> We dislike the immigrants who come here to live, sponge off the state, or, if they do have jobs, put nothing into our economy, because all their money is sent home. They pay as little as they can for basic needs, I have seen them at car boot sales harrassing sellers.





haeveymolly said:


> Not at all in fact its the likes of your huband we want and need in this country, its nothing too do with them coming from another country it coming from another country and fleecing this one.
> Its very different someone coming from germany,france etc gaining an education then giving something back, they dont come over in droves and disrespect our culture.


Ok - point taken. However, until you all qualified this, the tone of a lot of posts on here was very much "all" immigrants - ie you were lumping every immigrant together, and blaming all immigrants for the actions of a few - because make no mistake, when you see figures quoted for the number of immigrants in this country, the vast majority of them will be just like my husband, and not freeloaders at all. The thing is, we only get to hear about the bad cases - a bit like staffies - of all the millions of staffies in this country, the only few we hear about are the ones who (for whatever reason) bite someone.



JANICE199 said:


> *Val, is it racist to want our country back to how it was? or to say its about time we stopped immigration? I honestly don't see it as being racist and i sure as hell don't mean it to come across as such.The fact is,we live on a small island and its time,imo we started sorting out the problems we already have and with the people we already have.*


I agree we need to sort out the country Jan, but as I see it, the pressing problem is not to do with immigration, but to do with people freeloading from the state - whether they were born in this ****ry or not. Do you really think that stopping people coming into the country who are wiling to work and pay takes into the system is going to help?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Thats up to him and it is his job, like i said there is no issue with discussing immigration and applying measures that isn't rascist.


How do we do that then? because if we discuss immigration what would we be allowed to say then that wouldnt get mis-constrewed as racist.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Thats up to him and it is his job, like i said there is no issue with discussing immigration and applying measures that isn't rascist.


*Oh so it all boils down to who's saying it and how?*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*How many have replied on this thread and resent being classed as racist because we dared to have an oppinion? I DO.*


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

For the benefit of those who struggle with numbers and percentages, 4.3 percent of the total immigrant population is even smaller than you think. The immigrant population is less than 10% of the whole UK population, so 4.3 % of that population is much smaller than, eg. 4.3% of the UK population, and certainly an awful lot smaller than the 14% of the total population on benefits.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> How do we do that then? because if we discuss immigration what would we be allowed to say then that wouldnt get mis-constrewed as racist.


There are ways of dicussing the facts without resorting to lumping everyone in together, it's juts about aying things more thoughtfully, for example i refer you to Spellweavers post. The posts on this thread upset her and made her think you all meant her husband. Had people made specific points facts they have first hand experience on (NOT stuff the woman down the road or the newspapers said) based on fact rather than sweeping statements that wouldn't have happened.



JANICE199 said:


> *Oh so it all boils down to who's saying it and how?*


Errrr yes, like with everything in life 

Example - "would you excuse me please"  or "get out the f...ing way", which would you respond to ???


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I usually disagree with the content of those sorts of threads too, but they are generalist but not rascist.


So why is it racist because they arnt british, and we talk about colour which i havnt got a problem with its also been said it isnt about colour why then can we no longer have black boards, why cant we still sing nursery rhymes that has been sung to children for generations, but now because we have a mulicultural society we cant any longer, why is it now inacceptable, it ridiculous.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *How many have replied on this thread and resent being classed as racist because we dared to have an oppinion? I DO.*


and so do i.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *How many have replied on this thread and resent being classed as racist because we dared to have an oppinion? I DO.*


Well hate to have to agree with you! but I DO!


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

myshkin said:


> For the benefit of those who struggle with numbers and percentages, 4.3 percent of the total immigrant population is even smaller than you think. The immigrant population is less than 10% of the whole UK population, so 4.3 % of that population is much smaller than, eg. 4.3% of the UK population, and certainly an awful lot smaller than the 14% of the total population on benefits.


What about the people who are in this country illegally then? There must be hundreds if not thousands.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

myshkin said:


> Can we start dealing in facts rather than fake, media-generated stereotyes?
> 
> Concerns that migrant workers were arriving in the UK to take up benefits were not corroborated by the data, as only 4.3 per cent of the migrants who registered for a NI number in 2000-01 were receiving a key
> working-age benefit at the end of August 2001.
> ...


I agree with your first statement, most of the time it is the papers 'creating' these stereotypes, in turn aggravating things. Last summer how many times did you hear an English person moaning about how "if the Muslims want us to ban our England football shirts then they should ban their turbans"  How many Muslims do you think actually complained, or were 'insulted' by England shirts? Probably a very small minority. What's more likely is either (a) The Sun made it up; (b) Football shirts were actually banned from pubs by BRITISH police officers to stop any football hooliganism totally unrelated to race... or (c) A few ridiculous British councillors enforced OTT politically correct rules 'for fear or insulting anyone' - off their own backs, not by request of Muslims.

I do agree immigration and the whole benefits system needs an overhaul... but at the same time I am not naive enough to believe everything I read.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Maybe now is the time to tell you guys that are callling me racist (what a few of you already know) my grandchildren (just two I have) are black! (yep one prefers to be called black)
And belive you me I have NEVER met a person who is more racist then their father!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

louise5031 said:


> I agree with your first statement, most of the time it is the papers 'creating' these stereotypes, in turn aggravating things. Last summer how many times did you hear an English person moaning about how "if the Muslims want us to ban our England football shirts then they should ban their turbans"  How many Muslims do you think actually complained, or were 'insulted' by England shirts? Probably a very small minority. What's more likely is either (a) The Sun made it up; (b) Football shirts were actually banned from pubs by BRITISH police officers to stop any football hooliganism totally unrelated to race... or (c) A few ridiculous British councillors enforced OTT politically correct rules 'for fear or insulting anyone' - off their own backs, not by request of Muslims.
> 
> I do agree immigration and the whole benefits system needs an overhaul... but at the same time I am not naive enough to believe everything I read. .


Who the fook banned the british flag in certain towns then? for fear of insuting the muslins! theres no smoke without fire! Never has been ! never will be!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *How many have replied on this thread and resent being classed as racist because we dared to have an oppinion? I DO.*


How many people on this thread resent being classed as freeloaders because they are immigrants?

The answer is not many - not because they don't resent it, but because there are not that many immigrants on here. Hmm - and yet the country is overrun with them? 

I resent the tone of this thread so much that I was even contemplating taking a break from this forum. To me, except for a few people who have argued against the tone of the thread, and a few people who have taken the trouble to explain what they actually meant, this thread is deeply offensive.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Similar topics have been discussed for the whole of this week, correct me is ime wrong, but only tonight has anyone got this tetchy i suggest if anyone is offended by this leave the thread because theres some of us that have opinions on how and where our country is going and its going a long,long way from being british ime afraid.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *How many have replied on this thread and resent being classed as racist because we dared to have an oppinion? I DO.*


It's not about "daring" to have an opinion, thats just being over dramatic, i accept you may not realise the way you express your opinion is upsetting to some and may not consider yourself rascist but the language used by some members has been rascist and would be offensive to muslim people, thats just a fact.



DoubleTrouble said:


> To many folk wearing rose coloured specs mate! seems we can slate out own! but the moment you mention a 'particular' you are labelled a racist! Well OK! im a racist!


see the above reply to Janice.

People cannot state they "dislike" an entire race or agree with that statement then get offended when someone points out that is rascist  You can't just turn round and say "oh it's ok i am not racist because i like black people but i don't like them Muslims"

Do you really not see that DT ??


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> So are you suggesting my arguement is about 'brown and black' I sugget you think very carefully before replying to this!


What is the difference you're making, then? Some immigrants are ok, but certain cultural/racial/religious groups that just so happen to be a different colour are apparently freeloading our system, despite the evidence that in fact our work-shy population are home-grown? I can't see any other explanation to be honest. As for thinking carefully, I do, always.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Who the fook banned the british flag in certain towns then? for fear of insuting the muslins! theres no smoke without fire! Never has been ! never will be!


Probably a very intelligent landlord that knew the story would be in every paper the next day and would put his pub right on the map!!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> How many people on this thread resent being classed as freeloaders because they are immigrants?
> 
> The answer is not many - not because they don't resent it, but because there are not that many immigrants on here. Hmm - and yet the country is overrun with them?
> 
> I resent the tone of this thread so much that I was even contemplating taking a break from this forum. To me, except for a few people who have argued against the tone of the thread, and a few people who have taken the trouble to explain what they actually meant, this thread is deeply offensive.


It would be a great shame if you took a break from this forum! the forum is predominety for animals , and for that I hold your presence in much respect!
I cannot now nor ever will take anything back that I have said on this subject , but it were never my intention to offend you! That said - I for one do not think that the UK can continue as it is at present. 
regards
DT


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

louise5031 said:


> I agree with your first statement, most of the time it is the papers 'creating' these stereotypes, in turn aggravating things. Last summer how many times did you hear an English person moaning about how "if the Muslims want us to ban our England football shirts then they should ban their turbans"  How many Muslims do you think actually complained, or were 'insulted' by England shirts? Probably a very small minority. What's more likely is either (a) The Sun made it up; (b) Football shirts were actually banned from pubs by BRITISH police officers to stop any football hooliganism totally unrelated to race... or (c) A few ridiculous British councillors enforced OTT politically correct rules 'for fear or insulting anyone' - off their own backs, not by request of Muslims.
> 
> I do agree immigration and the whole benefits system needs an overhaul... but at the same time I am not naive enough to believe everything I read. Ten quid says in late November the papers will start printing made up stories of Muslims being offended or insulted by Christmas trees, just to get the ball rolling again.


This is the stuff I get fed up with - the myth-making. When I lived in Manchester my muslim colleagues gave me Christmas presents (usually wine, I'm easy to buy for!). There is no actual instance of any of the above happening as a result of muslims requesting it, yet because it appeared in a jike of a "newspaper" it's turned into fact. The system needs sorting, but it seems as a society we've found an easy scapegoat...sad.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> How many people on this thread resent being classed as freeloaders because they are immigrants?
> 
> The answer is not many - not because they don't resent it, but because there are not that many immigrants on here. Hmm - and yet the country is overrun with them?
> 
> I resent the tone of this thread so much that I was even contemplating taking a break from this forum. To me, except for a few people who have argued against the tone of the thread, and a few people who have taken the trouble to explain what they actually meant, this thread is deeply offensive.


I agree



haeveymolly said:


> Similar topics have been discussed for the whole of this week, correct me is ime wrong, but only tonight has anyone got this tetchy i suggest if anyone is offended by this leave the thread because theres some of us that have opinions on how and where our country is going and its going a long,long way from being british ime afraid.


and because i agree with the above i will have my say as i always have on this subject because i feel extremely strongly about it.

Come on, how often do you see me argue to this degree ?? I am not here to stir the pot or because i enjoy it but because i feel that strongly about it much as you do.

I am however off to bed now.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> How many people on this thread resent being classed as freeloaders because they are immigrants?
> 
> The answer is not many - not because they don't resent it, but because there are not that many immigrants on here. Hmm - and yet the country is overrun with them?
> 
> I resent the tone of this thread so much that I was even contemplating taking a break from this forum. To me, except for a few people who have argued against the tone of the thread, and a few people who have taken the trouble to explain what they actually meant, this thread is deeply offensive.


*I've never hidden how i feel about the immigration sittuation on here or in real life.I may not be the best at explaining myself but i have never meant to offend anyone.But i still stand by what i believe and that is the immigration does need sorting out.*


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> It's not about "daring" to have an opinion, thats just being over dramatic, i accept you may not realise the way you express your opinion is upsetting to some and may not consider yourself rascist but the language used by some members has been rascist and would be offensive to muslim people, thats just a fact.
> 
> see the above reply to Janice.
> 
> ...


No Rainybows! you don't see it! not one of us would have anything against muslins if they complied with our ways! and if this means removing the burqa in public places without kicking up a stink and pulling the racist card there would be no problem! And as long as there are do gooders saying why that is ok - it is their right then that problem will always be there! When in Rome!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Another thing I don't understand either is how there is never the same rage associated with our own British freeloaders, you know the people who make the decision not to work. I'm not talking about the people who are actively looking for work unsuccessfully, but the people who are perfectly able to work and instead choose to live off the state and continue having children at our expense. And guess what - they ain't all Muslim. That's it for my Jeremy Kyle-esque rant - good night


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Ok - message understood. I'm off - feel free to be as racist as you like.


I dont anyone permission to have an opinion if that opinion comes across as racist then theres not a lot i can do about that.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Ok - message understood. I'm off - feel free to be as racist as you like.


Shocked! that was not very nice, surely Haeveymolly is entitled to her opinion!


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Well, it's funny you should say that. In the fifties and sixties, Germans were the "fashionable" race to hate (not surprising really, because it wasn't long after the war - so a lot of racists felt justified in blaming ordinary German people for the atrocities of Hitler). However, in the seventies and eighties it became more fashionable to "hate" coloured people, and hatred against Germans faded somewhat. In the latter years Poles have now been added to the "fashionable hate" list.


True. In the 70s and 80s it was acceptable to hate the Irish, for fairly obvious reasons. It's too easily forgotten that the majority of us have immigrant ancestors in our not-too-distant past. It's always been the thing that I love about my country, the threads on here this week have me wondering if I'm wrong.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

myshkin said:


> This is the stuff I get fed up with - the myth-making. When I lived in Manchester my muslim colleagues gave me Christmas presents (usually wine, I'm easy to buy for!). There is no actual instance of any of the above happening as a result of muslims requesting it, yet because it appeared in a jike of a "newspaper" it's turned into fact. The system needs sorting, but it seems as a society we've found an easy scapegoat...sad.


The most repulsive, disgusting thing i have ever seen and that was muslims burning the poppys, now that wasnt the papers making anything up, and were told we are racist.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> My husband is an immigrant. He came to this country from Germany when he was six years old, along with his mother (who married an Englishman). He is now 59 years old. He attended school in this country, did an apprenticeship in this country, and has worked in this country all his life, paying taxes and national insurance to this country. And meanwhile there are idle people who were actually born in this country who don't want to work, who have no intention of working, who have never paid anything into the system in their lives, and exist on benefits that my husband - and other immigrant like him - have paid for with their taxes and national insurance.
> 
> So why the hell do all you racists want people like him out of the country? And saying "I'm not racist but" is a load of bullshit. If you are truly not racist you would not need to put such a prefix on what you are about to say. :mad5: :mad5:


Then he is apart of our country, He is supporting our country,

Its the benefits and the ones that DO NOT,that this is pointed at not the hard workers.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> The most repulsive, disgusting thing i have ever seen and that was muslims burning the poppys, now that wasnt the papers making anything up, and were told we are racist.


Absolutely hun, that was the most sickest racist thing i have ever seen in my life!!!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

KathrynH said:


> Absolutely hun, that was the most sickest racist thing i have ever seen in my life!!!


they should have been deported!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> they should have been deported!


I could think of another action to be honest!!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

louise5031 said:


> Another thing I don't understand either is how there is never the same rage associated with our own British freeloaders, you know the people who make the decision not to work. I'm not talking about the people who are actively looking for work unsuccessfully, but the people who are perfectly able to work and instead choose to live off the state and continue having children at our expense. And guess what - they ain't all Muslim. That's it for my Jeremy Kyle-esque rant - good night


Oh believe me there is there has been some corkers on here let me tell you and this is exactly what annoys me, we call the wrong doings of british people but it just doesnt seem to offend people in the same way as it does about immigrants why ive no idea, but i will have an opinion whether its the british or muslims thats why i think the "racist" word is used far too easily.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Shocked! that was not very nice, surely Haeveymolly is entitled to her opinion!


Dummys out


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Valanita said:


> What about the people who are in this country illegally then? There must be hundreds if not thousands.


That's a bit like asking how many men are rapists. We only know how many are caught. Treating the rest of them like criminals would be considered a bit unreasonable though, wouldn't it?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

myshkin said:


> True. In the 70s and 80s it was acceptable to hate the Irish, for fairly obvious reasons. It's too easily forgotten that the majority of us have immigrant ancestors in our not-too-distant past. It's always been the thing that I love about my country, the threads on here this week have me wondering if I'm wrong.


I havnt got immigrant ancestors but if i had my opinion would still be the same.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Anyone watching question time


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

myshkin said:


> That's a bit like asking how many men are rapists. We only know how many are caught. Treating the rest of them like criminals would be considered a bit unreasonable though, wouldn't it?


That doesn't make sense. Illegal immigrats are illegal & shouldn't be here.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Shocked! that was not very nice, surely Haeveymolly is entitled to her opinion!


Sorry you are shocked - but I bet you are not half as shocked as I am by being made to feel dreadful because my husband is an immigrant. I bet you are not as shocked as I am by being told to get off the thread if I don't like the opinions being expressed.

I am not exaggerating - I am sitting here with tears pouring down my face - I can usually take things that are said on here with a pinch of salt but this is too personal and too nasty. We've lived with racism all our married lives - my husband has lived with it virtually all his life - and to see it rearing its head on here, and to be told to get off the thread if I don't like the opinions being expressed - and then to be told *I'm* not being nice ............. :nono:


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. The discussion has been about immigrants, not illegal ones. You can't judge people who have a legal entitlement to be here by the actions of those who don't.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

i haven't caught up with this whole thread yet but i will state in my VERY first post that I mentioned the benefits. 

I said excately what was said on the news this morning.

and i said that i would like to see the next step of having these people on these benefits removed from the country and stop form coming in (maybe not in very good words but thats what i said)

Oh and Like DT I have members of my family whom are Black and my god daughter is black, as is my Uncle and I am from a romany gypsy line. 
I work hard, i pay my taxes, i contribute to this country, i was born in london.

what i dont like is the single immirgant that lives 3 doors away, in a 3 bed house paid for by our taxes when there are families crying out for 3 bedroom houses but the councils can't move them as they dont have any 3 beds left. why because people that refuse to work have them its these people that need to be dealt with. Black, white, english or polish i dont care.

DC said he is starting with immigrants on benefits not me!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Sorry you are shocked - but I bet you are not half as shocked as I am by being made to feel dreadful because my husband is an immigrant. I bet you are not as shocked as I am by being told to get off the thread if I don't like the opinions being expressed.
> 
> I am not exaggerating - I am sitting here with tears pouring down my face - I can usually take things that are said on here with a pinch of salt but this is too personal and too nasty. We've lived with racism all our married lives - my husband has lived with it virtually all his life - and to see it rearing its head on here, and to be told to get off the thread if I don't like the opinions being expressed - and then to be told *I'm* not being nice ............. :nono:


I was actualy one of the people that said your husband was certainly what we need in this country, came over here got an education, worked and paid into the system, its those that come over here for a free ride that get my goat.

Neither did i tell you to get off the thread, i did suggest that you had an option and you didnt have to read the comments i would never tell anyone to get off a thread. Please read the post again think you have taken it out of context


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Sorry you are shocked - but I bet you are not half as shocked as I am by being made to feel dreadful because my husband is an immigrant. I bet you are not as shocked as I am by being told to get off the thread if I don't like the opinions being expressed.
> 
> I am not exaggerating - I am sitting here with tears pouring down my face - I can usually take things that are said on here with a pinch of salt but this is too personal and too nasty. We've lived with racism all our married lives - my husband has lived with it virtually all his life - and to see it rearing its head on here, and to be told to get off the thread if I don't like the opinions being expressed - and then to be told *I'm* not being nice ............. :nono:


I hope you know that many, many, I hope most people don't have these prejudices any more. It's just that most won't get into this discussion because it tends to be irrational and insulting...I wouldn't usually, have my own reasons for being more vocal at the moment. Think of all the people who stayed quiet, not because they think it's true, but because they think it's too ridiculous.


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

My original reply was to your post about statistics, where you mentioned how many were actually here in Britian. If you add the illegal immigrants, I'm sure they can be guess-timated, then it would work out a lot more & someone must be feeding & clothing them & hiding them.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Sorry you are shocked - but I bet you are not half as shocked as I am by being made to feel dreadful because my husband is an immigrant. I bet you are not as shocked as I am by being told to get off the thread if I don't like the opinions being expressed.
> 
> I am not exaggerating - I am sitting here with tears pouring down my face - I can usually take things that are said on here with a pinch of salt but this is too personal and too nasty. We've lived with racism all our married lives - my husband has lived with it virtually all his life - and to see it rearing its head on here, and to be told to get off the thread if I don't like the opinions being expressed - and then to be told *I'm* not being nice ............. :nono:


In all honestly I do not for one moment think that any of the posts that have been made on this thread are directed at 'people' such as your husband! And I sincerely think that if you read back you will see that. I have seen nothing personal nor nasty that demonstrates such ~ our grievence are against those that see the UK and its welfare system as an easy touch. 
regards
DT


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Alvin says you should all calm down...


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> In all honestly I do not for one moment think that any of the posts that have been made on this thread are directed at 'people' such as your husband! And I sincerely think that if you read back you will see that. I have seen nothing personal nor nasty that demonstrates such ~ our grievence are against those that see the UK and its welfare system as an easy touch.
> regards
> DT


Ive just been looking as well and i cant see anything that suggests anything persanal to SW either


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

poohdog said:


> Alvin says you should all calm down...


and i though we had


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

poohdog said:


> Alvin says you should all calm down...


Calm down! I aint ever worked up a sweat yet!


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Valanita said:


> My original reply was to your post about statistics, where you mentioned how many were actually here in Britian. If you add the illegal immigrants, I'm sure they can be guess-timated, then it would work out a lot more & someone must be feeding & clothing them & hiding them.


lllegal immigrants can't claim benefits because...they're illegal. They are being fed and clothed usually by doing the sort of work that the average Brit wouldn't touch with a bargepole, even if it did pay the minimum wage which it doesn't. Or they're in enforced prostitution, unpaid "bound" labour (aka slavery), or the criminal activities associated with these. They're not claiming, they're not allowed to.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

myshkin said:


> lllegal immigrants can't claim benefits because...they're illegal. They are being fed and clothed usually by doing the sort of work that the average Brit wouldn't touch with a bargepole, even if it did pay the minimum wage which it doesn't. Or they're in enforced prostitution, unpaid "bound" labour (aka slavery), or the criminal activities associated with these. They're not claiming, they're not allowed to.


IF there illegal they shouldn't be in this country end of doing any sort of work or whatever!!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

myshkin said:


> lllegal immigrants can't claim benefits because...they're illegal. They are being fed and clothed usually by doing the sort of work that the average Brit wouldn't touch with a bargepole, even if it did pay the minimum wage which it doesn't. Or they're in enforced prostitution, unpaid "bound" labour (aka slavery), or the criminal activities associated with these. They're not claiming, they're not allowed to.


Then why come here? what is the attraction?


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

poohdog said:


> Alvin says you should all calm down...


Alvin is probably a better person than the average human, so I'm going to have to respect his view.

Have you been watching The Mighty Boosh? Using a picture of a cute kitten for anger management? If you don't know what I'm talking about I going to look demented...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

If you live in a country, with no welfare, no power, mud huts for houses, no running water, no sanitary conditions, nothing, absolutely nothing, why not come here? Wouldn't you if you had the chance??


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

myshkin said:


> lllegal immigrants can't claim benefits because...they're illegal. They are being fed and clothed usually by doing the sort of work that the average Brit wouldn't touch with a bargepole, even if it did pay the minimum wage which it doesn't. Or they're in enforced prostitution, unpaid "bound" labour (aka slavery), or the criminal activities associated with these. They're not claiming, they're not allowed to.


The benefit system is so poorly managed, it often gets exploited. This was in the headlines recently:

SCANDAL OF 150,000 ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ON BENEFITS 
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Scandal of 150,000 illegal immigrants on benefits

They believe it's mostly those outstaying their working visas/working without possessing a work permit.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Then why come here? what is the attraction?


I dunno. There's some epic point-missing occuring here, the point was that they are irrelavent to this discussion, because my stats were in response to the repeated comments about immigrants in receipt of benefits. Illegals can't claim, so they aren't relevant to any arguments about our system being drained of funds.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If you live in a country, with no welfare, no power, mud huts for houses, no running water, no sanitary conditions, nothing, absolutely nothing, why not come here? Wouldn't you if you had the chance??


I have been in the shanty towns - and have to ask how the hell do they afford the fare out of there?


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

myshkin said:


> I dunno. There's some epic point-missing occuring here, the point was that they are irrelavent to this discussion, because my stats were in response to the repeated comments about immigrants in receipt of benefits. Illegals can't claim, so they aren't relevant to any arguments about our system being drained of funds.


Fraid you have that wrong! they can and DO claim! If you are going to embark on an arguement be ure of your facts!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I have been in the shanty towns - and have to ask how the hell do they afford the fare out of there?


Me too, but people are ingenious. At the very least, they could hide in the back of your shed(s) for the next few years, no-one would ever know!!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Well they had this topic on question time and i found it interesting.One thing i did pick up on was when it was mentioned about good and bad immigration.Perhaps we have not mentioned enough on this thread about the good side.And on that note i'm off to bed.*


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

myshkin said:


> I dunno. There's some epic point-missing occuring here, the point was that they are irrelavent to this discussion, because my stats were in response to the repeated comments about immigrants in receipt of benefits. Illegals can't claim, so they aren't relevant to any arguments about our system being drained of funds.


holy whatever! seems like shibby (bless her heart) unearthed summat you should read!
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Scandal of 150,000 illegal immigrants on benefits


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Fraid I haven't:

Factcheck: Are 155k illegal workers claiming benefits? | Full Fact

The true number of illegals entitled to claim is far, far lower. They are entitled to claim because....................................................................................................they're paying tax!
There are no figures on how many of the eight thousand or so who are entitled are actually claiming, but if they are paying tax it doesn't seem likely they're claiming benefits.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

myshkin said:


> Fraid I haven't:
> 
> Factcheck: Are 155k illegal workers claiming benefits? | Full Fact
> 
> ...


If you ARE paying tax you can still claim benifit, those on low income still get working tax credti - if working over 30 hours a week WITHOUT children and 16 hours a week with children - and seeing a some seem to breed like rabbits!!! then there is council tax relief! free prescritions etc etc etc the list goes on! The UK is a soft touch! hopefully it will all soon end!


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

myshkin said:


> Fraid I haven't:
> 
> Factcheck: Are 155k illegal workers claiming benefits? | Full Fact
> 
> ...


The figures may not have been as high as estimated (Duh, it's the Daily Express ) but illegal immigrants can still claim benefits, so illegal immigrants not being able to claim benefits because they're illegal isn't exactly the case, well, it doesn't prevent certain ones from doing so.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

The newspaper concerned reported an estimate of those who might be eligible; a fairly exaggerated one. The true figure:

Adding up the estimates for each benefit covered in the document produces a very rough estimate that 8,570 irregular workers may be affected by the new conditions - not 155,000.

And that's an estimate of what _could_ happen, there are no figures on who actually does claim.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

myshkin said:


> The newspaper concerned reported an estimate of those who might be eligible; a fairly exaggerated one. The true figure:
> 
> Adding up the estimates for each benefit covered in the document produces a very rough estimate that 8,570 irregular workers may be affected by the new conditions - not 155,000.
> 
> And that's an estimate of what _could_ happen, there are no figures on who actually does claim.


Dress it up how you like! - just one illegal claim is one too many!


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

shibby said:


> The figures may not have been as high as estimated (*Duh, it's the Daily Express )* but illegal immigrants can still claim benefits, so illegal immigrants not being able to claim benefits because they're illegal isn't exactly the case, well, it doesn't prevent certain ones from doing so.


Chuckle.
No, it doesn't, my point being that it's a tiny proportion who are even entitled to try to claim (eight and a half thousand taxpayers doesn't get my knickers in a twist), so bringing illegal immigrants into this thread seems like a red herring.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Dress it up how you like! - just one illegal claim is one too many!


Totally agree we shouldn't have ANY illegal immigrants in this country!!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

myshkin said:


> Chuckle.
> No, it doesn't, my point being that it's a tiny proportion who are even entitled to try to claim (eight and a half thousand taxpayers doesn't get my knickers in a twist), so bringing illegal immigrants into this thread seems like a red herring.


I said ONE, just one illegal immigrant claiming any benifit is ONE too many!


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

myshkin said:


> Chuckle.
> No, it doesn't, my point being that it's a tiny proportion who are even entitled to try to claim (eight and a half thousand taxpayers doesn't get my knickers in a twist), so bringing illegal immigrants into this thread seems like a red herring.


My problem is with the benefit system which is so lax and has many loopholes that it allows people who aren't legally entitled to benefits to claim them (regardless of their background). They go on about cost saving measures but they haemorrhage money through their own incompetency : I'm not sure about it being a red herring, the original post did mention benefits for immigrants so I'd say it's kind of linked...


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Again, what do illegal immigrants have to do with the comments made on here about immigrants? Why should immigrants be tarred with the same brush as illegal immigrants, any more than the average staffy should be judged by the reports in the papers of the "devil" dogs?
It's all been a bit silly, I'm off to have a discussion with someone who can hold an idea in his head without flying off on tangents to distract from the fact that he can't address the point made convincingly. My dog.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

shibby said:


> My problem is with the benefit system which is so lax and has many loopholes that it allows people who aren't legally entitled to benefits to claim them (regardless of their background). They go on about cost saving measures but they haemorrhage money through their own incompetency : I'm not sure about it being a red herring, the original post did mention benefits for immigrants so I'd say it's kind of linked...


Last post crossed, it wasn't in response to yours. It's sort of linked, but doesn't have much of an impact on the overriding theme on this thread, which seems to be outrage about how easy it is to come here and claim benefits, and an implication that immigrants come here to do just that. The stats I've linked to in my opinion show that that is a misplaced fear. 
Anyway, fingers don't work this time of night, time to put my pooches to bed.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

myshkin said:


> Again, what do illegal immigrants have to do with the comments made on here about immigrants? Why should immigrants be tarred with the same brush as illegal immigrants, any more than the average staffy should be judged by the reports in the papers of the "devil" dogs?
> It's all been a bit silly, I'm off to have a discussion with someone who can hold an idea in his head without flying off on tangents to distract from the fact that he can't address the point made convincingly. My dog.


Whos flying off in tangents? And if your dog can hold a conversation with you he deserves a medal!


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

myshkin said:


> Last post crossed, it wasn't in response to yours. It's sort of linked, but doesn't have much of an impact on the overriding theme on this thread, which seems to be outrage about how easy it is to come here and claim benefits, and an implication that immigrants come here to do just that. The stats I've linked to in my opinion show that that is a misplaced fear.
> Anyway, fingers don't work this time of night, time to put my pooches to bed.


Just replied as I thought it was directed at me! Threads have a tendency to progress on to other things and I can see how illegal immigrants claiming benefits would be discussed in relation to the original post. It seems to be a hot topic at the moment anyway, that's for sure!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

myshkin said:


> It's all been a bit silly, I'm off to have a discussion with someone who can hold an idea in his head without flying off on tangents to distract from the fact that he can't address the point made convincingly. My dog.


Well if it were directed at me heres my response! I have remained civil through out this thread! I have neither been disrespectful nor abusive towards you. However you last remark has lowered my opinion of you! I shall be showing no respect whatsoever towards you as of now!!

And let me remind you that the opening thread were - relating to imigrants and benifits.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> In all honestly I do not for one moment think that any of the posts that have been made on this thread are directed at 'people' such as your husband! And I sincerely think that if you read back you will see that. I have seen nothing personal nor nasty that demonstrates such ~ our grievence are against those that see the UK and its welfare system as an easy touch.
> regards
> DT





haeveymolly said:


> Ive just been looking as well and i cant see anything that suggests anything persanal to SW either


Ok - I've had a night's sleep and I'm thinking a lot more lucidly now. I've re-read the thread and I still find it offensive and personal - but let me explain what I mean by personal.

I don't mean that anyone on here has attacked me or my husband by name. What I mean by personal is the fact that my husband is an immigrant and quite a lot of people on this thread have immediately lumped ALL immigrants into the "freeloaders who are dragging our country down" category. That means my husband - no matter whether or not you intended it to mean him. Now I know some people have clarified that they did not mean "people such as my husband" - but MOST immigrants are "people such as my husband". The whole feel of the thread was that immigrants are freeloaders but we'll make a special dispensation for your husband because he's one of the odd few who do work. After a night's sleep I can now see that you probably didn't intend it that way, but that is how it came across - and no matter how much you agree with each other that it didn't come across that way, the fact is that it did to me.

I think the fact that you cannot see why I was so upset last night says it all really. In your mind you were just expressing your opinions but you cannot see that to me - and no doubt to any other person who is an immigrant or has close relatives who are immigrants - such opinions are deeply offensive - whether you meant them to be or not.

Everyone has the right to express their opinion, but along with that right comes the responsibility of dealing with the fact that your opinion might upset someone else. And pointing out to people that they have an option to leave the thread if they do not like the opinions being expressed is not responsibly dealing with the genuine upset that your opinions have caused. It's just another way of saying that if you don't agree with what our gang think, then you're an outsider.

I'm not trying to prolong an argument or cause another argument. I'm merely trying to explain to you how the thread made me feel, and why I reacted as I did. And because I've quoted you two, please don't think this is an attack on either of you, or that I'm thinking you two were the only ones making me feel this way - I quoted these two comments because they led directly into the main point I am trying to make - ie that you still cannot see why I felt the thread was personal. I hope you take this post in the way it was intended - ie as an explanation of how the thread made me feel, and why I was so upset last night. I hope you both know me well enough to realise that I am not the sort of person to have tantrums over nothing, and are able to recognise that for me to be so upset over a thread on a forum is so unusual that that in itself is an indication of how hurtful I found some of the comments.

However, some good has come of it because the thread has now moved on and most people are clarifying that they are not, in fact, talking about ALL immigrants, merely those who are freeloaders. Much better, much less hurtful, and something I actually agree with.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Ok - I've had a night's sleep and I'm thinking a lot more lucidly now. I've re-read the thread and I still find it offensive and personal - but let me explain what I mean by personal.
> 
> I don't mean that anyone on here has attacked me or my husband by name. What I mean by personal is the fact that my husband is an immigrant and quite a lot of people on this thread have immediately lumped ALL immigrants into the "freeloaders who are dragging our country down" category. That means my husband - no matter whether or not you intended it to mean him. Now I know some people have clarified that they did not mean "people such as my husband" - but MOST immigrants are "people such as my husband". The whole feel of the thread was that immigrants are freeloaders but we'll make a special dispensation for your husband because he's one of the odd few who do work. After a night's sleep I can now see that you probably didn't intend it that way, but that is how it came across - and no matter how much you agree with each other that it didn't come across that way, the fact is that it did to me.
> 
> ...


Excellent post and exactly the point i was trying to make throughout. 

I also find these threads deeply offensive and i have no close relatives who are immigrants although except (like it or not) most of us are immigrants to this country if you go back far enough (at least they don't rape or pillage any more lol (attempting to inject humour at this point)

If people are genuinely upset that their comments were seen as rascist then maybe they will consider the language they use in future and how it makes some other members feel .


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Firstly ime glad you have made this post and no way do i think you are trying to cause argument by this, i can also see by mine and many more posts it does seem like we are tarring everybody with the same brush.
The problem is when you dont know people personally its impossible to know everyones personal circumstances so yes someone may get upset just as you definetly did last night and that wasnt my intention by a long way.

I hope you have looked back on the post where you very first mentioned your husband came over here from germany and my next post to you was saying that is what this country needs someone that come over here and contribute to it which obviously has and if i can just add what i wish i had added last night he will have contributed more than thousands of british people have, it not just immigrants that enrage me its everyone that is slowly running this country down, it just so happened that the subject wasnt on british alone.

Glad you have slept on this and have come back today as this has given me the opportunity to at least try and put things right.xx


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2011)

I honestly do think, certainly amongst some of the older members that if we sit and think, that most of us will have amongst our close friends, relations, close families, workmates, neighbours etc these groups will certainly include people that are non british, I know myself that my two very closest friends are such, one having a german mother (now deceased) , and the other a Polish father (also now deceased) Very often the polish immigrant (in our town) situation springs up and my half polish friend is worst then me in her views, and that is a fact. What I am saying here is that many of us have friends that are of non uk decent yet we do not even notice, we are blind to it, and these friends, many, acknowledge that there is a problem in the UK today due to immigration and that these are coupled to handouts.

I think SW that as others have mentioned before the main blame for the feelings of many are down to our governments and the media (albeit much of it crap) regarding the handouts, house queue jumping, job situation blah blah blah that are in the media almost every day of the week, last weeks headlines an Afghanistan woman taken to court for claiming benifits whilst owning a two million pound house, families from Somali demading to be moved to a 'better area' A TV documentry a few weeks back regarding a woman not even living here but in Spain and claiming housing benifits from three different councils, No we shouldn't believe all we read, but there is no smoke without fire. And no, it is not only immigrants that scrounge - there are no doubt many many more of our own that are at it too - but it is ALL too easy, and when we read that our pensioners are starving and many of them too proud to claim then summat is wrong somewhere! 

I do not think that you can even begin to compare the immigraints today to those of forty years ago. It is a entirely different kettle of fish now as to why folk are flooding to get in here, many even risking their lives.

This post could go on forever, so i'll end it by saying glad you are a little happier this morning SW and it were certainly never my intention to upset you and I am pretty confident I can speak for anyone else who has posted on here by saying the same . 

you can tell me to shut up now!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I honestly do think, certainly amongst some of the older members that if we sit and think, that most of us will have amongst our close friends, relations, close families, workmates, neighbours etc these groups will certainly include people that are non british, I know myself that my two very closest friends are such, one having a german mother (now deceased) , and the other a Polish father (also now deceased) Very often the polish immigrant (in our town) situation springs up and my half polish friend is worst then me in her views, and that is a fact. What I am saying here is that many of us have friends that are of non uk decent yet we do not even notice, we are blind to it, and these friends, many, acknowledge that there is a problem in the UK today due to immigration and that these are coupled to handouts.
> 
> I think SW that as others have mentioned before the main blame for the feelings of many are down to our governments and the media (albeit much of it crap) regarding the handouts, house queue jumping, job situation blah blah blah that are in the media almost every day of the week, last weeks headlines an Afghanistan woman taken to court for claiming benifits whilst owning a two million pound house, families from Somali demading to be moved to a 'better area' A TV documentry a few weeks back regarding a woman not even living here but in Spain and claiming housing benifits from three different councils, No we shouldn't believe all we read, but there is no smoke without fire. And no, it is not only immigrants that scrounge - there are no doubt many many more of our own that are at it too - but it is ALL too easy, and when we read that our pensioners are starving and many of them too proud to claim then summat is wrong somewhere!
> 
> ...


xxxx 

And i am sorry if i offended but i do hope it has made some members look at the language they use on these types of threads. Of course the examples you have given are wrong but they are not representative of all the many generations of immigrants this country has welcomed and who have contributed immeasurably over the decades so when people use terms that don't distinguish like "them" and "they" suggesting ALL immigrants it really would upset those genuine people who offer us so much and could continue to do so in a controlled and measured way by better rules and regulations (which i believe is what Mr Cameron is saying he wants to do, wether we believe him or not is a whole different debate and one i feel we would be on the same side of though )


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> xxxx
> 
> And i am sorry if i offended but i do hope it has made some members look at the language they use on these types of threads. Of course the examples you have given are wrong but they are not representative of all the many generations of immigrants this country has welcomed and who have contributed immeasurably over the decades so when people use terms that don't distinguish like "them" and "they" suggesting ALL immigrants it really would upset those genuine people who offer us so much and could continue to do so in a controlled and measured way by better rules and regulations (which i believe is what Mr Cameron is saying he wants to do, wether we believe him or not is a whole different debate and one i feel we would be on the same side of though )


Heck you are alway offending me Rainybows! but I normally get over it! EVENTUALLY guess I have extremely thick skin!

hey! and who are you to say my examples are wrong?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Heck you are alway offending me Rainybows! but I normally get over it! EVENTUALLY guess I have extremely thick skin!
> 
> hey! and who are you to say my examples are wrong?


lol i hope you realised i meant wrong in the sense that you are right in that they are wrong :blink:

You know i love you but we just cant do this subject without locking horns


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> lol i hope you realised i meant wrong in the sense that you are right in that they are wrong :blink:
> 
> You know i love you but we just cant do this subject without locking horns


I am currently in the shed so am unable to lock horns with you at this time! but I just spied an old 'sharpener' which I am erm about to test

So Rainybows - shall sniff you out later When I am fully 'armed'
lol
DT


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I am currently in the shed so am unable to lock horns with you at this time! but I just spied an old 'sharpener' which I am erm about to test
> 
> So Rainybows - shall sniff you out later When I am fully 'armed'
> lol
> DT


I will consider myself forewarned


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

*I've had a tidy up on here. I'm not PMing everyone that I've deleted a post from as I would be here all night  but can I remind everyone this is a PUBLIC forum, so be very careful how you write things.*


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> *I've had a tidy up on here. I'm not PMing everyone that I've deleted a post from as I would be here all night  but can I remind everyone this is a PUBLIC forum, so be very careful how you write things.*


To save me looking back can you tell me please if you deleted any of mine? Think I shall be mortified it you have coz I was really careful with my words!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I love sentances that start with a 'Im not a rasist...BUT...'  

Im just annoyed that your not allowed to say 'happy christmas' anymore incase they are a different religion, you have to say 'happy holidays' I dont have a religion but you gota love crimbo!!!  

Many many years back I was going to apply for council housing, when I went in to get the forms the lady stated to me 'look I really wouldnt bother, Unless you become a immigrant or go and get pregnant you wont get anything' 

I was like 'erm...' ! 

never did bother applying!

Although I end up feeling gulity when I call somewhere or go somewhere and I cant understand them  end up leaving / hanging up 

dont really know much about it and how many people coming in etc to comment though


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Definition of racist - "a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others".
Thought i'd add that so nobody can play the racist card again.As far as i can see none of the post were racist in the first place.*


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Definition of racist - "a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others".
> Thought i'd add that so nobody can play the racist card again.As far as i can see none of the post were racist in the first place.*


They weren't seems when we have summat like this we get all the lovely kind caring folk for the village called cloud cookoo land conregrating on the thread telling us what nasty people we are!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> They weren't seems when we have summat like this we get all the lovely kind caring folk for the village called cloud cookoo land conregrating on the thread telling us what nasty people we are!


*As most people know DT i live on an island and during the summer months i'm forever saying " bloody holiday makers",now is that classed as racist?*


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *As most people know DT i live on an island and during the summer months i'm forever saying " bloody holiday makers",now is that classed as racist?*


In my view Janice the racist laws are in desperate need of being either abolished or at the very least drastically altered.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

It's not racism that's a problem, as much as political correctness and conforming to daft EU laws and policies, unfortunately our politicians seem so keen to please the European bureaucrats rather than their voters


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I don't think it can all be blamed on the politicians.Sure its there fault they have gone about things wrong,imo.But what happend to common sense? we can't even agree amougst ourselves we DO have a problem with immigration.*


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> They weren't seems when we have summat like this we get all the lovely kind caring folk for the village called cloud cookoo land conregrating on the thread telling us what nasty people we are!


Er excuse me DT you are not the only person entitled to an opinion and people expressed quite clearly and politely on this thread that comments that were made WERE offensive so wether you intended to or not is irrelevant.

And i actually find your above statement pretty bloody offensive too given how well you know me.

I live with my feet quite firmly on the ground thankyou very much and there is so much more i COULD have said on the subject but chose not to out or RESPECT to some of you, seems you aint showing me that same courtesy at the moment.

It's NOT always pulling the "race card " ,as you put it, sometimes comments on this forum are racist - FACT and those comments should be removed so as not to offend and because its against the rules on here (Janice you like to quote the rules fairly regular so you should understand this).

You are well entitled to your views but you are still bound by the same rules and regulations as the rest of us DT.

I don't think any of you have a clue how close some members are to leaving over these threads and how many already have but thats OK as long as you have had your say.

The MODS clearly received complaints and acted accordingly, it's their call NOT mine so don't throw it back at me (and by the way I didn't complain but i would have done if it had carried on)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't think it can all be blamed on the politicians.Sure its there fault they have gone about things wrong,imo.But what happend to common sense? we can't even agree amougst ourselves we DO have a problem with immigration.*


Common sense is unfortunately an oxymoron these days!

Some of the most racist people I met were out in Africa, where the perception of peoples status is down to which tribe they're from in some instances. On the other hand, they would happily describe themselves as black, brown, coloured etc, and they regularly used derogatory terms to describe white people they didn't like.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Er excuse me DT you are not the only person entitled to an opinion and people expressed quite clearly and politely on this thread that comments that were made WERE offensive so wether you intended to or not is irrelevant.
> 
> And i actually find your above statement pretty bloody offensive too given how well you know me.
> 
> ...


*I have explained myself over and over on this subject,but even when i do try and explain what i trying to say i'm still being classed as racist.Is there a rule against that? I doubt it,but what card can i pull out of the bag?
Before anyone calls someone a racist perhaps they should read my post explaining what being racist is.And when they do, they will see i've not made any racist remarks so how have i broken any rules? By having an oppinion?*


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I have explained myself over and over on this subject,but even when i do try and explain what i trying to say i'm still being classed as racist.Is there a rule against that? I doubt it,but what card can i pull out of the bag?
> Before anyone calls someone a racist perhaps they should read my post explaining what being racist is.And when they do, they will see i've not made any racist remarks so how have i broken any rules? By having an oppinion?*


I am not aware you personally were told you were a rascist  I think you have made that assumption. My own comments during this thread have been aimed at the use of language like "they all come here , blah blah blah" and i think to state you dislike an entire race is racist and i said that.

Actually i have agreed in this thread that immigration needs tackling that has nothing to do with me challenging some of the generalist sweeping statements that have been made in this and other threads of late.

I also totally agreed with your post that there was not enough positive discussion regards the immigrants living in this country and the contributions they make .

What i don't get Janice is how this forum prides itself on challenging stereotypes of dog breeds believing every dog should be judged on its character and temperament (blame the deed NOt the breed) yet some can't apply that logic to the human race. Utterly baffling.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> I am not aware you personally were told you were a rascist  I think you have made that assumption. My own comments during this thread have been aimed at the use of language like "they all come her , blah blah blah" and i think to state you dislike an entire race is racist and i said that.
> 
> Actually i have agreed in this thread that immigration needs tackling that has nothing to do with me challenging some of the generalist sweeping statements that have been made in thi and other threads of late.
> 
> ...


*Go back and read page 5..Then correct me if i'm wrong but there is a post that made a sweeping statement,"all you racists"..But we can't make sweeping statements even if they are true.
When i use the word immigrants i'm not looking down my nose thinking i'm better than them,i'm using it because it discribes what and who i'm talking about.Now if someone chooses to nit pick about that then i see those people with the problem not me.If we can't debate this issue then all it will do is cause resentment,then it will become a race issue.Which i might add wouldn't be in this countries best interest.*


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm beginning to learn that the term racist is the catch all phrase for those who haven't a valid argument yet still want to knock a solid point.

Shame really.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Bandy said:


> I'm beginning to learn that the term racist is the catch all phrase for those who haven't a valid argument yet still want to knock a solid point.
> 
> Shame really.


*Perhaps some can't deal with reality and would prefer to bury their heads as to what realy is going on.If there is a problem which there is,then it needs dealing with.*


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

As soon as the word "racist" is said everyone automatically thinks that you are targeting black people or foreign people, but let me tell you when i say "racist" i mean all races of people, blacks against the whites which does happen as much as the other way round. There are "racist" comments made everyday about the "welsh" and the "English" hate the "welsh" and so on so on.

As far as the immigrants comments i have made i wont go back on what i said "NO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS" should be let in this country whatever nationality. 

Immigrants is a completely different ball game, as long as they are working etc and paying there taxes they have as much right to be here as us.


----------



## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

If overheard by a copper...

"What you looking at you black git?"..."I'm looking at you you white pillock!"

Guess which one gets arrested for a racist comment?


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

It's the same here...we have Mexicans streaming in illegally by the hundreds...EVERY day.

They will work, for cash, at far below minimum wage and can do this because the exchange is (or was last time I checked) 10 to 1 US dollar to Mexican.

This has the resultant effect of not only limited job opportunity for American citizens due to the overwhelming influx, but it also drives down the living wage.

When the situation of ILLEGAL immigration is broached....RACIST!! is screamed.

It's maddening. I'd love to throttle the parrots that have that come to mind as the first thing to say and never even give thought to the actual problem.:glare:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


poohdog said:



If overheard by a copper...

"What you looking at you black git?"..."I'm looking at you you white pillock!"

Guess which one gets arrested for a racist comment?

Click to expand...

But surely racialism is a two way thing,but its never seen like that.



Bandy said:



It's the same here...we have Mexicans streaming in illegally by the hundreds...EVERY day.

They will work, for cash, at far below minimum wage and can do this because the exchange is (or was last time I checked) 10 to 1 US dollar to Mexican.

This has the resultant effect of not only limited job opportunity for American citizens due to the overwhelming influx, but it also drives down the living wage.

When the situation of ILLEGAL immigration is broached....RACIST!! is screamed.

It's maddening. I'd love to throttle the parrots that have that come to mind as the first thing to say and never even give thought to the actual problem.:glare:

Click to expand...

Try telling some people over here that immigrants work for less pay and they will say it doesn't happen because we have the min.wage.:lol:
*


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

poohdog said:


> If overheard by a copper...
> 
> "What you looking at you black git?"..."I'm looking at you you white pillock!"
> 
> Guess which one gets arrested for a racist comment?


Exactly my point.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> That is irrelevant, your point was that WE all need to make cutbacks and thats Bull. I am not talking about Mr £100K diddling his books i am talking about the likes of Mr Tesco (i know you are a fan) earning HUUUUUGE profits and paying virtually F All. Many many many maaaaaany business the same and the banks nearly bankrupt this country WTF are they not in this whole "all in this together" malarky ????
> 
> As far as i am concerned we should remain as we always have sympathetic to GENUINE asylum eekers and grateful to other immigrants who choose to come here and make a better life for themselves doing jobs we can't fill and contributing to our society.
> 
> ...





JANICE199 said:


> *Go back and read page 5..Then correct me if i'm wrong but there is a post that made a sweeping statement,"all you racists"..But we can't make sweeping statements even if they are true.
> When i use the word immigrants i'm not looking down my nose thinking i'm better than them,i'm using it because it discribes what and who i'm talking about.Now if someone chooses to nit pick about that then i see those people with the problem not me.If we can't debate this issue then all it will do is cause resentment,then it will become a race issue.Which i might add wouldn't be in this countries best interest.*


I have just looked again and still fail to see where you personally are mentioned



Bandy said:


> I'm beginning to learn that the term racist is the catch all phrase for those who haven't a valid argument yet still want to knock a solid point.
> 
> Shame really.


Did you read the unedited version of this thread or the edited version ??

I have a perfectly valid argument and am not here to knock anyones "solid point" if you read my above quote you will see i have stated clearly where i stand on it and have agreed with some of the issues of immigration but i refuse to ignore blatant sweeping generalisations levied at an entire race based on little more than media bullshit and hearsay !!

I have tried repeatedly to explain to people why using sweeping generalist statements are upsetting and offensive in a calm and intelligent manner but i suppose you can lead a horse to water blah blah blah...... People may not SEE their use of language as offensive but clearly as this thread and others have shown it is offending people on here and believe me it is more people than those responding as many are too nervous to speak out.

Now usually i am able to ignore a thread if it offends or upets me, leave people to it BUT the way i see it with this particular subject to say nothing would be a worse crime than to actually agree with the posts so i have challenged SOME of the comments made on here and in the past. It is not my fault if people take that to mean i am challenging their entire view point 

Maybe tomorrow i will start a thread entitled "All those devil dog staffies should be PTS" and then quote all the usual media bullshit that is attached to that particular stereotype throw in a few anecdotes i have heard in the pub and see how far i get with it eh .


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> My husband is an immigrant. He came to this country from Germany when he was six years old, along with his mother (who married an Englishman). He is now 59 years old. He attended school in this country, did an apprenticeship in this country, and has worked in this country all his life, paying taxes and national insurance to this country. And meanwhile there are idle people who were actually born in this country who don't want to work, who have no intention of working, who have never paid anything into the system in their lives, and exist on benefits that my husband - and other immigrant like him - have paid for with their taxes and national insurance.
> 
> So why the hell do all you racists want people like him out of the country? And saying "I'm not racist but" is a load of bullshit. If you are truly not racist you would not need to put such a prefix on what you are about to say. :mad5: :mad5:





RAINYBOW said:


> I have just looked again and still fail to see where you personally are mentioned
> 
> *This was the post i was refering to.Not nice words but hey ho some of us just have to suck it up and are expected not to get angry.*


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

17 pages long.

2 posts discuss the immigration problem (or lack thereof).

The other 16 and a half pages discuss whether it's racist to talk about the immigration problem (or lack thereof).



I'd hate to have been subjected to the unedited version of this thread.

Just to share my opinion on the racisim thing...I'd expect a racist to say, "White people can come to this country, but black people shouldn't be allowed"...or words to that effect.

Whilst some racists are also xenophobes, not all xenophobes are racist. The 2 things are completely different.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

classixuk said:


> 17 pages long.
> 
> 2 posts discuss the immigration problem (or lack thereof).
> 
> ...


*LOL..I'll hold my hands up i'd never heard the word xenophobes and hadn't a clue what it meant.But i don't hate foreigners or strangers.
I actualy love people (hard to believe i know),religions and races.But i love my own country to stand up for it above others.Now if that is being racist i must fit the bill.*


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> LOL..I'll hold my hands up i'd never heard the word xenophobes and hadn't a clue what it meant.*But i don't hate foreigners or strangers.
> *


The last bit is why you've never had the word tossed your way.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *LOL..I'll hold my hands up i'd never heard the word xenophobes and hadn't a clue what it meant.But i don't hate foreigners or strangers.
> I actualy love people (hard to believe i know),religions and races.But i love my own country to stand up for it above others.Now if that is being racist i must fit the bill.*





Bandy said:


> The last bit is why you've never had the word tossed your way.


LOL. My evil plan is working. I hope to see the word "racist" replaced with the word "xenophobe" within the next 5 posts. LOL


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

classixuk said:


> LOL. My evil plan is working. I hope to see the word "racist" replaced with the word "xenophobe" within the next 5 posts. LOL


*pmsl ya git. I repeat. "Definition of racist - "a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others".
Now they are not my words,and i haven't used the word you used.*


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> I have just looked again and still fail to see where you personally are mentioned
> 
> Did you read the unedited version of this thread or the edited version ??
> 
> ...


Rainybows! The title of this thread initially posted by Candysmum
Reads - words to the effect of!

It is about time!

The moves on to discuss a recent statement made by the pillock in charge of this country at this time! To remove or reduce the benifits of immigrants coming into this country! How can anyone be termed as racist for saying and about time too! because I for one fail to see!


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *pmsl ya git. I repeat. "Definition of racist - "a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others".
> Now they are not my words,and i haven't used the word you used.*


Quick...give me a word that starts with X, other than X-Ray and Xylophone..


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

classixuk said:


> Quick...give me a word that starts with X, other than X-Ray and Xylophone..


Xtravert


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> I have a perfectly valid argument and am not here to knock anyones "solid point" if you read my above quote you will see i have stated clearly where i stand on it and have agreed with some of the issues of immigration but i refuse to ignore blatant sweeping generalisations levied at an* entire race *based on little more than media bullshit and hearsay !!


Did someone mention an "entire race" or did they say IMMIGRANTS?

I can't be bothered to read every post in hopes of supporting your position..however misguided it is.



RAINYBOW said:


> I have tried repeatedly to explain to people why using....statements are upsetting and offensive in a calm and intelligent manner but i suppose you can lead a horse to water blah blah blah...... People may not SEE their use of language as offensive but ....


language such as cursing or deliberately calling people who want their borders closed...or at least have legal migration curbed till finances allow a return to normal...racist?



RAINYBOW said:


> Maybe tomorrow i will start a thread entitled "All those devil dog staffies should be PTS" and then quote all the usual media bullshit that is attached to that particular stereotype throw in a few anecdotes i have heard in the pub and see how far i get with it eh .


Have at it.

I'm sure there are those of us here who could reasonably tell you why its a bad idea without calling you a hater of _all_ animals.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Xtravert


I don't mind Xtroverts, but what if they are Xtroverted Xenophobic Racists? 

Infact, what would such a person be likely to say?

"I don't like chinese germans whom I'm yet to meet, but you should try their vintage port darling! It's spiffing"


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

classixuk said:


> Quick...give me a word that starts with X, other than X-Ray and Xylophone..


*xanthemia which i might add is off topic.:nono::lol::lol:*


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Bandy said:


> Did someone mention an "entire race" or did they say IMMIGRANTS?
> 
> I can't be bothered to read every post in hopes of supporting your position..however misguided it is.
> 
> ...


So again i will ask did you read the original thread or the edited version then ???

I quote (and sorry to the poster but this was the statement that really offended me the most, please understand i am challenging your view not you as an entire person)

"I am not rascist but i dislike all muslims"

Not a generalisation or a sweeping statement levied at an entire race then ??

I am still yet to find anywhere where (for example) Janice was told she was a "rascist" she has made that assumption by herself and i cant be responsible for that.

And to be honest if you are prepared to disagree so wholeheartedly with me yet confess you haven't read my contributions to the thread i am not really prepared to continue to discuss it as you don't really have a grasp on the point i am making or how i feel about Immigration, it means you are making assumptions based on skimming a few random posts so its pointless to try and discuss it further.


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> So again i will ask did you read the original thread or the edited version then ???
> 
> I quote (and sorry to the poster but this was the statement that really offended me the most, please understand i am challenging your view not you as an entire person)
> 
> ...


You do realize Muslims are not a race...its a religion....right?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Bandy said:


> You do realize Muslims are not a race...its a religion....right?


yes but their is no such word as religionist maybe i should have used Xenophobe, Classix is quite right to point that out but would people have preffered that label  Is that a "better" thing to be ,

i have edited my previous post which you might have missed as i feel it is pointles discussing this further with you if you have A) read the edited version of the thread and B) not even bothered to read all of my contributions to the thread so not really sure why i am suddenly having to "justify" my opinion to you.

Fact still stands people were deeply offended by some of the content of the original thread and it was reported and the posts removed by the MODS.

If members make the assumption that they were being called rascist thats up to them, if their views weren't rascist then the accusation wasn't aimed at them was it .


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> not really sure why i am suddenly having to "justify" my opinion to you.


Wasn't asking for a justification.
This is discourse..it's how ideas are exchanged. You are entitled to your opinion and always have the option of answering a question or not.



RAINYBOW said:


> yes but their is no such word as religionist maybe i should have used Xenophobe, Classix is quite right to point that out but would people have preffered that label  Is that a "better" thing to be


Xenophobe certainly wouldn't have worked either. That means hatred or fear of *all* foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture.

The word I guess that would designate one who hates other religions is ....religious. 



RAINYBOW said:


> Fact still stands people were deeply offended by some of the content of the original thread and it was reported and the posts removed by the MODS.


As for people getting upset...that will happen.
It's a knee jerk reaction when anything they can't dispel with thoughts of their own comes into play.

No one, here or in life, has the power over me to upset me...except me.
I refuse to let anyone have that much control over me. 



RAINYBOW said:


> If members make the assumption that they were being called rascist thats up to them, if their views weren't rascist then the accusation wasn't aimed at them was it .


You've only just posted what it was you meant. So, being text and no one having mind reading abilities, you can surely understand why those with opinions, different from yours, assumed they were being called racist...whether they felt their sentiments were racist or not.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

So all the people that are leaving this country, emigrating, should the same rules apply? Learn the language, respect the countries religions and intigrate into that society. No shops, pubs, schools purely for English people.. After all once you emigrate from here you become a migrant in another country.. Spanish people are up in arms over Brits in parts of their country...


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> So all the people that are leaving this country, emigrating, should the same rules apply? Learn the language, respect the countries religions and intigrate into that society. No shops, pubs, schools purely for English people.. After all once you emigrate from here you become a migrant in another country.. Spanish people are up in arms over Brits in parts of their country...


The same applies for anybody that leaves this country and enters another, they should learn the language.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

northnsouth said:


> So all the people that are leaving this country, emigrating, should the same rules apply? *Learn the language, respect the countries religions and intigrate into that society.* No shops, pubs, schools purely for English people.. After all once you emigrate from here you become a migrant in another country.. Spanish people are up in arms over Brits in parts of their country...


Yes.
If you want to become a CITIZEN of another country, I think it's only right.

America is a melting pot. It's people from all around the globe that have made our culture what it is.

As for no ethnic specific shops or pubs...of course not.
There will always be a market for those.


----------



## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> yes but their is no such word as religionist maybe i should have used Xenophobe, .


Maybe this, I like using this word....
*Bigot* a person with prejudiced views who does not tolerate the opinions of other people...


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

northnsouth said:


> Maybe this, I like using this word....
> *Bigot* a person with prejudiced views who does not tolerate the opinions of other people...


Now you're gonna sidetrack Classic's hard work.


----------



## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Bandy said:


> Wasn't asking for a justification.
> This is discourse..it's how ideas are exchanged. You are entitled to your opinion and always have the option of answering a question or not.
> 
> Xenophobe certainly wouldn't have worked either. That means hatred or fear of *all* foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture.
> ...


Fair enough but i would still ask how you can know that i am wrong if you have not seen the unedited version or read all my posts. ((asked in a genuine manner ))

I have no objection to people discusing Immigration problems, i agree throughout that there are problems but i have merely challenged the use of generalisation throughout. I don't think it is acceptable and it is offensive to use terms such as "immigrants" inferring ALL immigrants and "they" and "them" as a collective word for anyone coming into our country that wasn't born and bred here.

Immigrants have added great value to our country over the decades (our health ystem would collapse without them as one example) and i am sure that pretty much every poster on this thread would agree with that yet many still choe to use the term "Immigrants" instead of differentiating.

Our benefits sytem is a joke and a mess and i will repeat what i said early on. The government needs to sort the wheat from the chaff and the same applies to British born and bred.


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Fair enough but i would still ask how you can know that i am wrong if you have not seen the unedited version or read all my posts. ((asked in a genuine manner ))
> 
> I have no objection to people discusing Immigration problems, i agree throughout that there are problems but i have merely challenged the use of generalisation throughout. I don't think it is acceptable and it is offensive to use terms such as "immigrants" inferring ALL immigrants and "they" and "them" as a collective word for anyone coming into our country that wasn't born and bred here.
> 
> ...


Not really clear on what it is you think I've said you were wrong about..

I'm curious though. Not being familiar with your health system, how is it that immigrants are the ones that are responsible for it's viability and not the indigenous tax payers?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Bandy said:


> Not really clear on what it is you think I've said you were wrong about..
> 
> I'm curious though. Not being familiar with your health system, how is it that immigrants are the ones that are responsible for it's viability and not the indigenous tax payers?


Sorry i thought you made some statements about those of us who had used the word rascist when you joined the thread ??

Because there wouldn't be enough people to run it without legitimate immigration 

I am off for a BBQ now, enjoy the evening sunshine


----------



## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> Sorry i thought you made some statements about those of us who had used the word rascist when you joined the thread ??


THAT'S what you weren't understanding? I took the time to type that as clearly as possible.



RAINYBOW said:


> Because there wouldn't be enough people to run it without legitimate immigration


I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me.
The more people you have, the more people you have USING it...meaning..a greater DRAW on it.
How does a greater DRAW equal it's _only route_ to viability?



RAINYBOW said:


> I am off for a BBQ now, enjoy the evening sunshine


Just barely past mid day here...but thank you.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

northnsouth said:


> So all the people that are leaving this country, emigrating, should the same rules apply? Learn the language, respect the countries religions and intigrate into that society. No shops, pubs, schools purely for English people.. After all once you emigrate from here you become a migrant in another country.. Spanish people are up in arms over Brits in parts of their country...





northnsouth said:


> Maybe this, I like using this word....
> *Bigot* a person with prejudiced views who does not tolerate the opinions of other people...


*Its got nothing to do with being prejudice.Why can't it be as simple as,hello sorry but we don't need or want any more people?
I'd love to know when all this being PC came about.Now who on here said the other day i view the old days through rose tinted glasses? pmsl Fools rush in comes to mind.*


----------



## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Its got nothing to do with being prejudice.Why can't it be as simple as,hello sorry but we don't need or want any more people?
> I'd love to know when all this being PC came about.Now who on here said the other day i view the old days through rose tinted glasses? pmsl Fools rush in comes to mind.*


*

If this is a comment directed at me maybe you could explain. Thanks*


----------



## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

classixuk said:


> 17 pages long.
> 
> 2 posts discuss the immigration problem (or lack thereof).
> 
> ...


That would be why the word racist has been used more by those who fear they are being accused of it than by those who have a different viewpoint to them. 
I didn't see the discussion as whether it was racist to talk about immigration, from my point of view I objected to all immigrants being lumped together as "they" and "them" who come over to live the easy life on our benefits system.
Not the same as calling people racist for even raising the subject of immigration.


----------



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Its got nothing to do with being prejudice.Why can't it be as simple as,hello sorry but we don't need or want any more people?
> I'd love to know when all this being PC came about.Now who on here said the other day i view the old days through rose tinted glasses? pmsl Fools rush in comes to mind.*


The PC thing seemed to really take hold around the mid-late 80s in my opinion. Before that, if I did anything wrong, I got a clout off the teacher.

The problem for me with some PC banner flyers though, is that they choose to fly the said banner without even asking the 'minority' whether they would like to be represented. What's all that about? LOL

Sometimes, the result can actually be 'reverse prejudice' which leaves the previous "majority" out in the cold. Is this because of guilt?


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

myshkin said:


> Not the same as calling people racist for even raising the subject of immigration.


That was part of his point.

Raising objections to the idea that people come to "live the easy life on benefits", especially when referring to the immigrants as they or them, wouldn't be considered racist to me anyway.

That's just an opinion on how the system is being abused.

Classifying people negatively, based on race, would be, in my mind, an example of racism though.

People, especially those who get their opinions from the shite spouted on the television, are quick to label dissenters to the party line with that moniker though...


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Bandy said:


> That was part of his point.
> 
> Raising objections to the idea that people come to "live the easy life on benefits", especially when referring to the immigrants as they or them, wouldn't be considered racist to me anyway.
> 
> ...


Actually Bandy, I just thought...can you help me here?

What would the term be for someone who cannot abide all racists?

Would they be a racisphobic? Is there even a word for it? LOL What do we call someone who is prejudiced towards other people who are prejudiced? And what right do they have to practice their prejudice while condemning other's prejudice ways?

Hmmmnnn...perhaps the cold got to my brain when I was walking the dog LOL.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

classixuk said:


> The PC thing seemed to really take hold around the mid-late 80s in my opinion. Before that, if I did anything wrong, I got a clout off the teacher.
> 
> The problem for me with some PC banner flyers though, is that they choose to fly the said banner without even asking the 'minority' whether they would like to be represented. What's all that about? LOL
> 
> Sometimes, the result can actually be 'reverse prejudice' which leaves the previous "majority" out in the cold. Is this because of guilt?


I think it's the deluge of intended guilt on the part of the media. Every form is saturated with it.
My personal beliefs on why is a topic for another thread.

My favorite debate is about slavery in the US and the idea of reparations.

My usual tactic is to bait them into listing all of their reasons for supporting this idea by way of making Caucasians out to be terrible for doing that to a people....then quietly, and with much satisfaction, pointing out that (insert least offending label for ethnicity of said slaves) also owned slaves in this country.

In fact, the first legally recognized slave owner was (use previous label)

Again, it's the parrots that can't think for themselves that usually follow along with the PC brigade.

What ever happened to a good old middle finger to someone who says something offensive rather than trying to make an entire populace feel guilty over things they have a niggling aren't quite right anyway?


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

its to little too late,this once great nation of ours is on an uncontrollable downward spiral...we'll be 3rd world and in poverty within a decade


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

skyblue said:


> its to little too late,this once great nation of ours is on an uncontrollable downward spiral...we'll be 3rd world and in poverty within a decade


Can you extend that prediction for a wee while skyblue! lets say 3 decades eh! then I shall have popped my cloggs - or shall be near to it and wouldn't give a fook!
DT


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

skyblue said:


> its to little too late,this once great nation of ours is on an uncontrollable downward spiral...we'll be 3rd world and in poverty within a decade


Can anyone tell me (sorry to go slightly off topic) but what happened to all the 2nd world countries? We never hear about them. Are there any?


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

classixuk said:


> Can anyone tell me (sorry to go slightly off topic) but what happened to all the 2nd world countries? We never hear about them. Are there any?


Soviet Union and China...and their allies.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Bandy said:


> Soviet Union and China...and their allies.


Thanks for that Bandy.

Do you know how it's measured? Is it based on GDP?


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

classixuk said:


> Thanks for that Bandy.
> 
> Do you know how it's measured? Is it based on GDP?


It used to be set up along political lines but yeah, now it's more along economic lines.


----------



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Bandy said:


> It used to be set up along political lines but yeah, now it's more along economic lines.


So in order to drop to a 2nd world country, we'd have to have a similar output as China/India?

Who knows? Maybe things will stay the same here, but China and India will overtake us?


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

classixuk said:


> So in order to drop to a 2nd world country, we'd have to have a similar output as China/India?
> 
> Who knows? Maybe things will stay the same here, but China and India will overtake us?


Ok, my thoughts on the whole topic is to eventually have all nations the same.
If you look around at what's going on, you'll see the efforts in place.

The EU, for a microcosm, works well.
Initially, it was supposed to be only nations of a certain GDP brought in. That was changed and over time, the UK is being gutted to lift up member nations.

This is happening on a global scale with similar unions. They tried to sneak a North American Union in, through subversion (SPP), but was thwarted....for the time being.

Eventually, in my estimation, once all nations are brought under area unions, they will be "united" under one global governance.

Like I said...probably a topic for another thread....


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Bandy said:


> Ok, my thoughts on the whole topic is to eventually have all nations the same.
> If you look around at what's going on, you'll see the efforts in place.
> 
> The EU, for a microcosm, works well.
> ...


I suppose one of the best ways to begin something like that would be to introduce a new currency that all of the citizens use...like the euro? Am I getting you here?
And then encourage the people to go infiltrate the more well off countries to drain them of resources and bring them to their knees, kicking and screaming to join the united currency?

I would say you are very ON thread!


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bandy said:


> I'm beginning to learn that the term racist is the catch all phrase for those who haven't a valid argument yet still want to knock a solid point.
> 
> Shame really.


Perhaps if you had read the original posts you would see that your statement is wrong. People were labelling ALL immigrants - ie ALL races other than the indigenous race of their country - as lazy freeloaders. Racist is the correct term for anyone who believes that any race other than their own is made up of lazy freeloaders. People on here have since clarified their comments and exlpained that they were not, in fact, meaning ALL immigrants, only the ones who are freeloading. That's fine - that's not racist - I have no problem with people being against freeloaders of any race or religion.



Bandy said:


> As for people getting upset...that will happen.
> It's a knee jerk reaction when anything they can't dispel with thoughts of their own comes into play.
> 
> No one, here or in life, has the power over me to upset me...except me.
> I refuse to let anyone have that much control over me.


My being upset at some of the comments on here was certainly not a knee-jerk reaction. Unless you have lived through years of racial abuse (as I and my husband have during the sixties and seventies) you have absolutely no idea of what it is like, or the uspet it can cause. I sincerely hope you never do have to experience this.

My husband was bullied mercilessly at school and beaten up several times - purely because he was born in Germany and lived in Germany until he was six years old. He has been refused jobs because of his surname, and once because the boss didn't want to deal with the trouble it would cause with the work force if he employed a German. We have had people vandalising our house and car - smearing them with excrement once - merely because he was born in Germany. We have had to move house because the police could not protect us against the people attacking us. He was regularly called a Nazi - he was six when he left, ffs - how on earth does anyone think a 6 year old can be a member of a defunct political party? And remember, all though this, my husband has a British Passport, has lived, worked, and payed taxes and National Insurance to Britain all his life (which is more than can be said for a lot of the people who were hurling the racist abuse during the sixties and seventies). You come out with a glib throwaway comment that you refuse to let other people have the power to upset you - how would you let all that not upset you, then?

The hatred against Germans has died down since the eighties, being taken over by hatred against coloured people and, more lately, Polish people, and hatred against the muslim religion. To some degree, people are protected against racism by various acts of law - but you still get people on here posting that these laws should not exist, that it is wrong that people of races other than British in this country should be protected against the British, wrong that they should have laws to protect them from being bullied, beaten up, discriminated against.

So having lived with a lifetime of that, don't you dare to dismiss my being upset with racism on here as a knee-jerk reaction that I can't dispel with thoughts of my own. You really have no idea.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

classixuk said:


> What would the term be for someone who cannot abide all racists?


Dont know about a specific term other than "anti-racists", but several adjectives spring to mind - anyone who cannot abide all racists is normal, well-adjusted, sensible, intelligent, morally-sound ................


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Imo this has got nothing to do with pepole hating other races or religions.The fact is people myself included are just airing their views about how they feel when others come to this country and we keep bending the rules in their favour.As for racism that works both ways,or should but doesn't.*


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Perhaps if you had read the original posts you would see that your statement is wrong.


My comment was not based solely on this thread. My comment was based on the parrots of society...as I've stated repeatedly...and have seen from time to time on this site.
So ...no ...by and large, my statement is _not_ wrong. It is dead on.



> My being upset at some of the comments on here was certainly not a knee-jerk reaction.


Im sorry...I don't remember naming you as an example



> *Unless you have lived through years of racial abuse* (as I and my husband have during the sixties and seventies) *you have absolutely no idea of what it is like, or the uspet it can cause*. I sincerely hope you never do have to experience this.


The 60's and 70's? That far back? My family and extended family are of mixed races. I see racial attitudes often and a hell of a lot more recently.
Don't try to belittle my opinion without knowing anything about me or how my thoughts on the idea was formed.:nono:



> You come out with a glib throwaway comment that you refuse to let other people have the power to upset you - how would you let all that not upset you, then?


Glib and throwaway you say. How very condescending.:blink:
Your plight of woes back in the 60's and 70's, though very touching, does not make you the be all end all of knowing how it feels to be discriminated against. Nor does it give you the moral high ground to preach from.
Try having a black brother and cousin while living in the South in the US.
I will save you the heart wrenching details, but rest assured, it was, at the very *least*, as harmful as those you've listed.
Those events, and incidentally, court ordered anger management classes because of how I wrongly handled a few incidents, using fists instead of rule of law, are what led to my insight concerning giving others the power over me to decide my emotions.

There is a huge difference between justified passionate outrage over being mistreated and letting others control your emotions via *text on a page*.



> So having lived with a lifetime of that, don't you dare to dismiss my being upset with racism on here as a knee-jerk reaction that I can't dispel with thoughts of my own. You really have no idea.


First, I *will* do _whatever_ I please. 
I have lived my life to make sure that's not just a possibility but a first choice _regardless of how others feel I should handle myself._

Second, I again take issue with you stating I singled you out.
Even a cursory read will show my statements were made towards those who haven't a valid argument yet spout the media fed line.

Third, when you see actual racism, call it out. _I_ do. 

As for having no idea, I do find that ironic. You trying to sit there spouting condescension and not knowing the first thing about me or how I've come to the opinions I have....especially given these opinions weren't directed towards you in the first place.

Next time you decide to take me to task on my opinions, it would behoove you to have a leg to stand on.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> Imo *this has got nothing to do with pepole hating other races or religions.*The fact is people myself included are *just airing their views about how they feel when others come to this country and we keep bending the rules in their favour.*As for racism that works both ways,or should but doesn't.


Exactly.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bandy said:


> My comment was not based solely on this thread. My comment was based on the parrots of society...as I've stated repeatedly...and have seen from time to time on this site.
> So ...no ...by and large, my statement is _not_ wrong. It is dead on.
> 
> Im sorry...I don't remember naming you as an example
> ...


So - the effect of racism on you has been worse than the effect of racism on me? How childish. It's not a competition. Grow up ffs. Racism is racism is racism. The racism experienced by me and my husband was worse in the sixties and seventies, but has never stopped - according to many on this thread he's an immigrant and therefore a freeloader and shouldn't be in this country.

So my experience of racism does not make me the be all end all of knowing how it feels to be discriminated against? Well, I've never said it made me the be all and end of. But it DOES make me know exactly what it feels like. I find it very strange that someone who has purportedly suffered racism can even begin to argue that anyone else who has suffered it can't possibly know what it's like. Saying "my experience was worse than yours so I know more about it than you, ner ner ner" - again, how childish.

So you weren't singling me out? You made a blanket statement about all the people on the thread being upset. As I was one of the posters who was exremely upset by the racism on this thread, you were, by dint of your blanket statement, including me. Perhaps if you had read the thread before you posted any of this, you would know this.

So you think my post was condescending? Your posting that people merely having knee-jerk reactions because they cannot forumlate an opinion is one of the most condescending posts on here. Re-arrange the following words into a well-known phrase or saying - black, calling, pot, kettle.

When I see racism call it out? Always do - that's what the argument on this thread has been about - as you would know if you had read it.

Leg to stand on? Again, the words pot kettle and black spring to mind.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> So - the effect of racism on you has been worse than the effect of racism on me? How childish. It's not a competition. Grow up ffs. Racism is racism is racism. The racism experienced by me and my husband was worse in the sixties and seventies, but has never stopped - according to many on this thread he's an immigrant and therefore a freeloader and shouldn't be in this country.
> 
> So my experience of racism does not make me the be all end all of knowing how it feels to be discriminated against? Well, I've never said it made me the be all and end of. But it DOES make me know exactly what it feels like. I find it very strange that someone who has purportedly suffered racism can even begin to argue that anyone else who has suffered it can't possibly know what it's like. Saying "my experience was worse than yours so I know more about it than you, ner ner ner" - again, how childish.
> 
> ...


You've got to be kidding me with this post...

jeez


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I've been trying to find a video of what Cameron actualy said.( i can be a bit slow lol ).Now as much as i don't like the guy i think in this speech he raised some valid points.
YouTube - David Cameron speech on UK immigration, part1/2 (14Apr11)*


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bandy said:


> You've got to be kidding me with this post...
> 
> jeez


Ah - don't like the truth, huh?


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Ah - don't like the truth, huh?


Wondering about your reading comprehension skills really.

Was just trying to be nice.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bandy said:


> Was just trying to be nice.


0/10. Must try harder.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> So - the effect of racism on you has been worse than the effect of racism on me? How childish. It's not a competition. Grow up ffs. Racism is racism is racism. *The racism experienced by me and my husband was worse in the sixties and seventies, but has never stopped - according to many on this thread he's an immigrant and therefore a freeloader and shouldn't be in this country.*
> 
> So my experience of racism does not make me the be all end all of knowing how it feels to be discriminated against? Well, I've never said it made me the be all and end of. But it DOES make me know exactly what it feels like. I find it very strange that someone who has purportedly suffered racism can even begin to argue that anyone else who has suffered it can't possibly know what it's like. Saying "my experience was worse than yours so I know more about it than you, ner ner ner" - again, how childish.
> 
> ...


To be fair SW, I haven't read any posts on this thread that say "Spellweaver's husband is an immigrant freeloader who shouldn't be in this country". Can you point any out? I may have missed them.

What has been discussed (as far as I can see) is whether immigration is becoming a strain on our resources? Does it need to be more tightly controlled, and if so, how can that be done now that we are members of the EU?

To draw an analogy...there was a thread on here recently about parents, and whether they managed to get their first choice of primary school for their youngsters. The way the system appears to work with schools is that each school has a set capacity for the amount of children it can teach, based on teacher : pupil ratios etc. Obviously, every parent wants their kid in the best school in the area, but it's physically not possible for that school to house every pupil. Parents accept that.

The UK is one of the smallest European countries. If schools can have caps to protect their resources and quality of teaching, why can't a country have caps to protect it's resources and quality of life?

None of this has anything to do with your husband.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2011)

classixuk said:


> To be fair SW, I haven't read any posts on this thread that say "Spellweaver's husband is an immigrant freeloader who shouldn't be in this country". Can you point any out? I may have missed them.
> 
> What has been discussed (as far as I can see) is whether immigration is becoming a strain on our resources? Does it need to be more tightly controlled, and if so, how can that be done now that we are members of the EU?
> 
> ...


I agree there is nowhere in this thread that has mentioned YOUR husband or called him any names, and we have all stated that we are not talking about immigrants shouldn't be here, it is illegal ones that shouldn't be here.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> 0/10. Must try harder.


Don't be so hard on yourself. I always give another chance.

Just try re-reading what I TYPED and draw conclusions from there...rather than looking as though you skimmed it and missed what was said.

:thumbup:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bandy said:


> Don't be so hard on yourself. I always give another chance.
> 
> Just try re-reading what I TYPED and draw conclusions from there...rather than looking as though you skimmed it and missed what was said.
> 
> :thumbup:


Pot. Kettle. Black.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

classixuk said:


> To be fair SW, I haven't read any posts on this thread that say "Spellweaver's husband is an immigrant freeloader who shouldn't be in this country". Can you point any out? I may have missed them.
> .





KathrynH said:


> I agree there is nowhere in this thread that has mentioned YOUR husband or called him any names, and we have all stated that we are not talking about immigrants shouldn't be here, it is illegal ones that shouldn't be here.


With respect, I've already answered this very point in great detail. Have you not read my post #136? Please do so - and when you do, remember that some of the posts I am talking about in post #136 had been edited before you read them.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> With respect, I've already answered this very point in great detail. Have you not read my post #136? Please do so - and when you do, remember that some of the posts I am talking about in post #136 had been edited before you read them.


Yes Spellweaver. I read it. It was mainly you saying that people who post on forums should be more aware that their opinions could make people upset.

Don't you think it's a bit selfish of you to expect the whole of Petforums' members not to have a view on immigration (even ALL immigrants, if that's what floats their boat) in case it upsets little old YOU?

You're expecting way too high standards from strangers, and you need to grow a thicker skin.

You said that you had by the end of that post, as you accepted most people were only talking about the 'freeloading immigrants' - but so what if they were talking about all immigrants? Everyone is entitled to an opinion on a public forum.

Yet by post 213, you were back to mentioning how people on here were attacking your husband directly, and that's why I posted (as did others).

Your husband, and the racism he suffered has NOTHING to do with whether UK immigration in the year 2011 needs to be changed/monitored/controlled. Absolutely nothing. He came here years ago. He's part of the population.

You know, my brother is half Spanish, my dad is Irish and my sister-in-law South Korean, yet I don't go round getting upset or defensive if people talk about immigration; whatever their views.

Chillout girl.


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Pot. Kettle. Black.




That would work if situations were the same.

However, seeing as I directly answered you and you totally missed what I said in order to continue a rant, I can't for the life of me see the connection. Except, maybe, to make another post regardless of how you look in the process.

Quick Summary:

The crux of your argument was treatment you suffered and therefore have a legitimate gripe.

My whole post was about those who haven't a valid argument yet spout the party line.

Your following posts revolved around racist treatment that had nothing to do with the topic...immigration to the UK...CURRENTLY.

My post pointed out that I too know that feeling and reject your condescension.

Your last post was somewhere in left field...

Try reading again what I said. I think you'll then see why I said you must be kidding.

If you truly are upset about my position on those that spout party line, that could only mean you're upset because you don't have a valid argument....right? I mean, if they are the ones that can't make a valid point..and you're upset by that...go figure.:blink:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

classixuk said:


> Don't you think it's a bit selfish of you to expect the whole of Petforums' members not to have a view on immigration (even ALL immigrants, if that's what floats their boat) in case it upsets little old YOU?


How very rude. The post was not just about how it affects me - in fact I actually state:

_"I think the fact that you cannot see why I was so upset last night says it all really. In your mind you were just expressing your opinions but you cannot see that to me - and no doubt to any other person who is an immigrant or has close relatives who are immigrants - such opinions are deeply offensive - whether you meant them to be or not."_

And judging by the number of pms I received from people thanking me for putting this into words, I was not too far off beam. Don't forget - you did not read the posts that were on here before they were edited. The whole point was that posters were classing ALL immigrants as freeloaders, until I pointed out how upsetting that was. People subsequently changed the tone of the thread - which I also noted:

_"However, some good has come of it because the thread has now moved on and most people are clarifying that they are not, in fact, talking about ALL immigrants, merely those who are freeloaders. Much better, much less hurtful, and something I actually agree with."_

Do explain - if you can - how you came to the conclusion that the above paragraph is expecting petforum members not to have a view on immigration?



classixuk said:


> but so what if they were talking about all immigrants? Everyone is entitled to an opinion on a public forum.


And I also have an equal right to post my opinion which is that:
a) by saying that immigrants are freeloaders they are being racist - ie they are classing all races except the indigenous race as freeloaders and 
b) that this is hurtful to MOST immigrants, who live here, work hard, and pay more into the system than a lot of freeloading Brits.



classixuk said:


> Yet by post 213, you were back to mentioning how people on here were attacking your husband directly, and that's why I posted (as did others).


No - this post was actually a specific reply to a post by Bandy which you and one other person chose to jump on.



classixuk said:


> Your husband, and the racism he suffered has NOTHING to do with whether UK immigration in the year 2011 needs to be changed/monitored/controlled. Absolutely nothing. He came here years ago. He's part of the population.


And no-where have I said it is. Read my first post #36. I used my husband as an example of an immigrant who was not freeloading. In subsequent posts - #61, #74 - this was also the subject. I only wrote about our personal experiences of racism in order to explain to people why seeing racism on here had upset me so much, and to show how even unthinkingly racist comments have the power to hurt others..



classixuk said:


> You know, my brother is half Spanish, my dad is Irish and my sister-in-law South Korean, yet I don't go round getting upset or defensive if people talk about immigration; whatever their views.
> 
> Chillout girl.


Well, some of us care enough to try to stop racism and some of us don't. What you think, feel and do is up to you. I personally do not like to see racism in any shape or form and will speak out against it wherever it rears its head. For me, it is wrong to pretend that it is not racist when people say ALL immigrants (ie ALL races other than the British) are freeloaders - as the posts on here were doing at first.

As for chilling out - well, I'd rather speak out against something I feel is wrong rather than chill out and just ignore it. Ignoring something bad does not make it go away - it merely makes it seem more acceptable to the people who are doing it in the first place.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bandy said:


> That would work if situations were the same. :


Totally agree with you here.



Bandy said:


> The crux of your argument was treatment you suffered and therefore have a legitimate gripe.


And here is where your argument falls down. You are wrong about the crux of my arguement, as you would know had you read all my posts properly. They are all still there - may I repeat your suggestion to me to read what I TYPED rather than what you think I said. Read all the posts, not just the last few. When you have done that, you will see that the crux of my argument is twofold:

a) that classing ALL immigrants as freeloaders is racist because it is saying that ALL races other than the indigenous race are freeloaders
b) Not all immigrants are freeloaders. I used my OH as an example of this.

I spoke about our personal experiences of racism for three reasons:
a) to explain to posters why I personally became upset by the racist comments on here
b) to show how even unintentional racism has the power to hurt
c) in a specific reply to your post to show you that people who were complaining about racism were not just "spouting the party line".

Now, if you had read my posts properly, instead of either not reading them at all, or skim-reading them, you would have seen all this.

You accused me of skim-reading and not understanding what you meant. Oh look - you have done exactly the same.  Well I never!

Pot, kettle, black.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

classixuk said:


> Yes Spellweaver. I read it. It was mainly you saying that people who post on forums should be more aware that their opinions could make people upset.
> 
> Don't you think it's a bit selfish of you to expect the whole of Petforums' members not to have a view on immigration (even ALL immigrants, if that's what floats their boat) in case it upsets little old YOU?
> 
> ...


So basically what you are saying is members should just be able to come on and spout whatever they want without any challenge to their viewpoint ??

So I assume that applies to all minorities then ?? Immigrants, Single Mums, Homosexuals  Doesn't matter how offensive or how many laws they break they are simply entitled to their say and we should all just "chill out"

Do you want to have another think about that at all ? 

Quite happy NOT to be that sort of person to be honest.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*For what its worth i have debated this subject over the weekend no end.I've come to the conclusion this subject nowadays cannot imo be debated as openly and frank as it should be,for fear of upsetting someone.I'm not just talking about on here but in "real life" also.Mention the word immigration and your automaticly classed as racist.But they are two totaly different subjects,that people don't seem to want to seperate.
During my debate over the weekend the subject was raised about the guy that burnt to poppy and everyone was up in arms about it.Why? My understanding is the poppy is the symbol we use to remember those who fought in wars to give us the freeom of speech and to express ourselves in this country.
The boundries of our "freedom" seems to be dissapearing.*


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2011)

OK iv steered clear of this whole mess of a thread tbh,its all gotten very heated. I think the problem lies within language used... I think most of the time when people discuss immigration and are shot down its because an assumption is made that they refer to all immigrants in the country. When often they are only referring to illegal migrants; rather than legitimate ones that are part of our society, and 9 times out of ten are hard working, honest folk, that pay tax with the rest of us, to pay for the free education system, to pay for the NHS and benefits system.

Yes, there are a handful of bad eggs, but that isnt restricted to immigrants - there are plenty of white british scum too! Doesnt mean we should all be judged by the handful of idiot extremists. I certainly wouldnt want to be judged by the standards of skinheads or the workshy

Its when people think your talking about ALL immigrants that the problems start, and the racism card is thrown in. And lets face it, without legitimate immigration our NHS would fall apart, as an example.

Just to add: i am sincerly hoping that everyone here is talking about the illegal immigrants as opposed to legitimate ones, and have posted with this assumption


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2011)

Just to add the "freedom of speech and opinion" argument grates me when it is used to spread judgement and hatred for those that do no deserve it - it is a free country, however this shouldn't infringe upon the rights of other human beings simply because of the country to which they were borne, colour of their skin, or religious beliefs. We do not have any more rights to freedom than anyone else in this country simply because we were born here.


Freedom of speech is a gift, and not one to be used at the expense of others, because by doing such you are unwittingly stripping them of the freedom you claim to value so highly.


/vent over...back to my dissertation


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Savahl said:


> Just to add the "freedom of speech and opinion" argument grates me when it is used to spread judgement and hatred for those that do no deserve it - it is a free country, however this shouldn't infringe upon the rights of other human beings simply because of the country to which they were borne, colour of their skin, or religious beliefs. We do not have any more rights to freedom than anyone else in this country simply because we were born here.
> 
> Freedom of speech is a gift, and not one to be used at the expense of others, because by doing such you are unwittingly stripping them of the freedom you claim to value so highly.
> 
> /vent over...back to my dissertation


*I could debate that point but i wont.*


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I could debate that point but i wont.*


right to freedom and basic human rights are not the same as rights to the countries resources - I think that the benefits system for example should be used by those who have input into it... so people coming in and never working i dont think have the same rights to those benefits as either people whos family have input to the system, or immigrants who have worked and input into the system. But i dont think a british person who has never worked has more rights to it than an immigrant who has worked and paid british taxes for 10yrs.

But i am talking about basic human rights here, not benefits, nhs, education etc. So this encompasses their right to have a voice, as we do, choice and ability to partake in their religious traditions, as we do, etc. And as stated most legitimate immigrants input into society and so should be treated as such with regards to our resources into which they contribute.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *For what its worth i have debated this subject over the weekend no end.I've come to the conclusion this subject nowadays cannot imo be debated as openly and frank as it should be,for fear of upsetting someone.I'm not just talking about on here but in "real life" also.Mention the word immigration and your automaticly classed as racist.But they are two totaly different subjects,that people don't seem to want to seperate.
> During my debate over the weekend the subject was raised about the guy that burnt to poppy and everyone was up in arms about it.Why? My understanding is the poppy is the symbol we use to remember those who fought in wars to give us the freeom of speech and to express ourselves in this country.
> The boundries of our "freedom" seems to be dissapearing.*


I always understood the poppy to be a symbol of peace as well as a symbol to remember those who fought in wars.

I am in two minds about the remembrance day protest and the burning of the poppies. On one hand I think that no-one should be allowed to defile what is, in effect, a religious service where people are remembering the huge sacrifice made by the men and women killed in wars in order for us to have our freedom. Most of us will have relatives - very close relatives - who died in wars, and for the peace of a remembrance service to be shattered by protesters seems wrong. But on the other hand, I can understand that people in a country which we have occupied, and in which _we_ are killing _their_ relatives, can see the poppy as a false symbol of peace - ie we are preaching peace, but we are making war.

(Ducks and runs for cover)


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I have steered clear of replying on this thread over the weekend because I knew I would end up getting embroiled in it and spending far too much time on the computer than out in the lovely sunshine! that said I have thought about it a lot and yes I DID read the unedited version! 

I DO think we should be able to talk about immigration and to start with the thread did begin in this vein! but it soon became a "them and us" and there were many posts that began to pool certain races together in certain behaviours ie making stereotypical comments which COULD be and were taken offensively by some members - and regardless of whether or not they were meant that way, fact is when you are writing on a public forum you HAVE to be aware that we do not know the colour,creed, religion of all our members. 


Immagration IS a problem in this country there is nothing racist about saying that IMO and the thread SHOULD have been about tackling the issue and what the Government should do about it - and also about the british people who make this country a not so perfect place to be which are a fair blood few! - NOT then being page after page of taking the rip out of immigrants which is how I viewed SOME of the posts.:tongue_smilie:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I always understood the poppy to be a symbol of peace as well as a symbol to remember those who fought in wars.
> 
> I am in two minds about the remembrance day protest and the burning of the poppies. On one hand I think that no-one should be allowed to defile what is, in effect, a religious service where people are remembering the huge sacrifice made by the men and women killed in wars in order for us to have our freedom. Most of us will have relatives - very close relatives - who died in wars, and for the peace of a remembrance service to be shattered by protesters seems wrong. But on the other hand, I can understand that people in a country which we have occupied, and in which _we_ are killing _their_ relatives, can see the poppy as a false symbol of peace - ie we are preaching peace, but we are making war.
> 
> (Ducks and runs for cover)


Hmmm, I don't think you can justify the poppy burning at all, there are better ways to protest against something you believe strongly about, than defiling the memories of people who died to ensure the freedom of their country. If they hadn't died and if Hitler had been successful, do you think when he finally took over the world he would have treated their fathers and grandfathers any better than other non-arian races? No, he most certainly wouldn't, the poppy burning incident was an absolute disgrace, and imo, the people concerned shouldn't be allowed to live in a country where people died to ensure the freedoms we have today. And a huge difference is, the wars now being fought are to ensure the freedom of the people living there, whether or not people agree with the actual war(s) being fought in the first place, is another matter entirely.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Hmmm, I don't think you can justify the poppy burning at all, there are better ways to protest against something you believe strongly about, than defiling the memories of people who died to ensure the freedom of their country. If they hadn't died and if Hitler had been successful, do you think when he finally took over the world he would have treated their fathers and grandfathers any better than other non-arian races? No, he most certainly wouldn't, the poppy burning incident was an absolute disgrace, and imo, the people concerned shouldn't be allowed to live in a country where people died to ensure the freedoms we have today. And a huge difference is, the wars now being fought are to ensure the freedom of the people living there, whether or not people agree with the actual war(s) being fought in the first place, is another matter entirely.


I do think that the poppy burning was disgraceful, and again actions by the handful of nutjobs rather than actions and viewpoint of the majority. And done nothing to help the animosity towards their own ethnic group.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Hmmm, I don't think you can justify the poppy burning at all, there are better ways to protest against something you believe strongly about, than defiling the memories of people who died to ensure the freedom of their country. If they hadn't died and if Hitler had been successful, do you think when he finally took over the world he would have treated their fathers and grandfathers any better than other non-arian races? No, he most certainly wouldn't, the poppy burning incident was an absolute disgrace, and imo, the people concerned shouldn't be allowed to live in a country where people died to ensure the freedoms we have today. And a huge difference is, the wars now being fought are to ensure the freedom of the people living there, whether or not people agree with the actual war(s) being fought in the first place, is another matter entirely.


*I believe their memory is being defiled in this country every day.*


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> I have steered clear of replying on this thread over the weekend because I knew I would end up getting embroiled in it and spending far too much time on the computer than out in the lovely sunshine! that said I have thought about it a lot and yes I DID read the unedited version!
> 
> I DO think we should be able to talk about immigration and to start with the thread did begin in this vein! but it soon became a "them and us" and there were many posts that began to pool certain races together in certain behaviours ie making stereotypical comments which COULD be and were taken offensively by some members - and regardless of whether or not they were meant that way, fact is when you are writing on a public forum you HAVE to be aware that we do not know the colour,creed, religion of all our members.
> 
> Immagration IS a problem in this country there is nothing racist about saying that IMO and the thread SHOULD have been about tackling the issue and what the Government should do about it - and also about the british people who make this country a not so perfect place to be which are a fair blood few! - NOT then being page after page of taking the rip out of immigrants which is how I viewed SOME of the posts.:tongue_smilie:


Wow, someone who GOT the point :thumbup:

agreed


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> I have steered clear of replying on this thread over the weekend because I knew I would end up getting embroiled in it and spending far too much time on the computer than out in the lovely sunshine! that said I have thought about it a lot and yes I DID read the unedited version!
> 
> I DO think we should be able to talk about immigration and to start with the thread did begin in this vein! but it soon became a "them and us" and *there were many posts that began to pool certain races together in certain behaviours ie making stereotypical comments which COULD be and were taken offensively by some members* - and regardless of whether or not they were meant that way, fact is when you are writing on a public forum you HAVE to be aware that we do not know the colour,creed, religion of all our members.
> 
> Immagration IS a problem in this country there is nothing racist about saying that IMO and the thread SHOULD have been about tackling the issue and what the Government should do about it - and also about the british people who make this country a not so perfect place to be which are a fair blood few! - *NOT then being page after page of taking the rip out of immigrants which is how I viewed SOME of the posts.*:tongue_smilie:


These were the things I objected to. I've got no problem with whatever view someone might have on immigration, nor their right to express that view. The stereotyping and lumping all immigrants together as coming here to drain our resources on the other hand, I found offensive and it just doesn't match up to reality.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Hmmm, I don't think you can justify the poppy burning at all, there are better ways to protest against something you believe strongly about, than defiling the memories of people who died to ensure the freedom of their country. If they hadn't died and if Hitler had been successful, do you think when he finally took over the world he would have treated their fathers and grandfathers any better than other non-arian races? No, he most certainly wouldn't


Erm - I did say I was in two minds about it and that it seemed wrong to me to defile the service! I have the utmost respect for anyone who has fought and die for their country and, as I said, disturbing the main memorial service to these heroes seems wrong.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> the poppy burning incident was an absolute disgrace, and imo, the people concerned shouldn't be allowed to live in a country where people died to ensure the freedoms we have today.


But did the men and women who gave their lives die in order to give everyone the right to express their opinions, or only a select few? Thanks to them, we have the freedom of speech we enjoy today. Is it right to curb that freedom if someone wants to say things we don't want to hear? Not allowing someone to voice dissent is not freedom of speech. Either we have freedom of speech or we don't.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> And a huge difference is the wars now being fought are to ensure the freedom of the people living there, whether or not people agree with the actual war(s) being fought in the first place, is another matter entirely.


Really? So we are not merely suporting the US in their attempt to gain control of the Middle East and its oil? And how free _have_ we made the people of Iraq? Of Afghanistan?

But even if you are correct and we *are* fighting for the freedom of the people in these countries, is it right that we should deny freedom of speech to their relatives in this country who are, understandably, upset we are killing their relatives (even if it is, as you point out, for their own good in the long run)?

I am as angry as the next person that the protest took place when it did. But I can understand why they did it.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Wow, someone who GOT the point :thumbup:
> 
> agreed


Think we need to put this in the records - that we agree LOL



myshkin said:


> These were the things I objected to. I've got no problem with whatever view someone might have on immigration, nor their right to express that view. The stereotyping and lumping all immigrants together as coming here to drain our resources on the other hand, I found offensive and it just doesn't match up to reality.


Yep exactly - all it needs is a bit of thought here and there before we say something -  and before anyone else says - no that is not being namby pamby, wearing rose tinted glasses, being a bible basher, or being all pink and fluffy! I dont and never have done pink! its about common sense and respect - what you say in your own home is one thing but in public well expect to be challenged.....I was at my brother in laws fathers funeral recently - and he was dead against black people always was and I guess some of his family have the same mentality because we were talking about relationships with my niece and one of them said "oh well it could have been worse you could have bought a black man home"  luckily my OH was not present - did I take offense?? Hell Yes!! did I think that was racist hell yes! and did I tell them so ? hell yes I did! people just need to "think" first!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Think we need to put this in the records - that we agree LOL
> 
> Yep exactly - all it needs is a bit of thought here and there before we say something -  and before anyone else says - no that is not being namby pamby, wearing rose tinted glasses, being a bible basher, or being all pink and fluffy! I dont and never have done pink! its about common sense and respect - what you say in your own home is one thing but in public well expect to be challenged.....I was at my brother in laws fathers funeral recently - and he was dead against black people always was and I guess some of his family have the same mentality because we were talking about relationships with my niece and one of them said "oh well it could have been worse you could have bought a black man home"  luckily my OH was not present - did I take offense?? Hell Yes!! did I think that was racist hell yes! and did I tell them so ? hell yes I did! people just need to "think" first!


*Ok suzy,and i'm asking this as an example so PLEASE don't anyone take offence.What if,like my late brother someone doesn't like a certain race,why do they not have the right to say so?
Surely if we honestly do live in free country people should be able to air their views.*


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok suzy,and i'm asking this as an example so PLEASE don't anyone take offence.What if,like my late brother someone doesn't like a certain race,why do they not have the right to say so?
> Surely if we honestly do live in free country people should be able to air their views.*


Of course he has the right to say that! I knew my b-in-laws father hated black people but I still went to his funeral and paid my respects! I accept that he had those views even though I disagree with them - doesnt mean I didnt like the man just meant I would not take my OH to meet him! and we didnt talk about black people! lol - but when people start saying derogatory stuff on a forum or in person about a race all being the same etc - then I think you have to be more careful because you are not talking to everyone who has the same view as you - and you could offend - just means you have to word it differently - I dont think that is denying what you believe in - its just showing respect 

Im editing to say however that I cannot fathom how anyone can hate a whole race of people without knowing one individually -I find that very very sad tbo - Not aiming this at you Jan as I know you have used it as an example - but some people do have those views!


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## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

I am genuinely wondering, how is it possible to dislike a whole race of people? That's one hell of a lot of individuals that you don't know. It always makes me wonder when people say that.


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## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Im editing to say however that I cannot fathom how anyone can hate a whole race of people without knowing one individually -I find that very very sad tbo - Not aiming this at you Jan as I know you have used it as an example - but some people do have those views!


Me too Suzy, that's precisely what I don't get. I'm not aiming my post at anybody either. I think we don't see people as individuals sometimes.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2011)

ok... you can say what you like, but you cant expect someone to accept it if it is said to them, or regarding them. Im sure you wouldnt just keep schtum if someone said inflammatory comments about you, or something your passionate about...(like I think smokers are stupid, its disgusting and it should be banned everywhere!). So yes, someone is entitled to say what they want, but should expect everyone to just sit back and not say anything - if the shoe was on the other foot they are likely to be more than vocal


Also, there are still laws which freedom of speech is limited by. Racial and religious hatred act, public order act etc


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Erm - I did say I was in two minds about it and that it seemed wrong to me to defile the service! I have the utmost respect for anyone who has fought and die for their country and, as I said, disturbing the main memorial service to these heroes seems wrong.
> 
> But did the men and women who gave their lives die in order to give everyone the right to express their opinions, or only a select few? Thanks to them, we have the freedom of speech we enjoy today. Is it right to curb that freedom if someone wants to say things we don't want to hear? Not allowing someone to voice dissent is not freedom of speech. Either we have freedom of speech or we don't.
> 
> ...


I too can understand why they did it, but not how they did it, and I know you said you were in two minds hun, it's just I'm in one mind about it 

It is a juxtaposition really, yet, the people who died to ensure all people still have a freedom of speech, were the very ones whose memory they are desecrating, and that can't be right? If that had happened in another country with stricter cultural and religious beliefs, the consequences would have been far greater. I can't remember the exact details, but the story of the teacher in an African Muslim country springs to mind, where she allowed the children to name a teddy bear Mohammed. What happened there after was an absolute disgrace to human rights, the whole issue was blown out of propotion, and she was jailed and faced a steep penalty if the government hadn't intervened.

I do strongly believe if you live in another country with a different culture you should respect it, that's how I was brought up and what I do when I visit other countries. And I've had words with people before about them not doing the same, like a teacher (young woman from NZ had been in London and on her way home) who didn't understand that in African cultures there isn't always a phrase to say 'please', and it's perfectly acceptable to say give me, which is how it's literally translated from their language. It's the way it's asked that shows respect, not the words themselves. Or the Danish woman who I suggested may want to cover up a little in her postage stamp of a bikini, whilst walking through a predominantly muslim village, by all means sit by the hotel pool in said article, but it's not really showing much respect traipsing through the local village like that.

The problem is so many different countries and cultures just don't respect or understand others, or make any effort to.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

kaz_f said:


> I am genuinely wondering, how is it possible to dislike a whole race of people? That's one hell of a lot of individuals that you don't know. It always makes me wonder when people say that.


We do it all the time unfortunately! and not just to do with colour and creed etc - we often pre-judge on appearance only - I did it myself at the weekend! watching Britains Got Talent! the guy who came on and sang Fast Car ! I pre-judged that because of how he looked etc he was gonna be crap! he was amazing! :tongue_smilie::blink:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok suzy,and i'm asking this as an example so PLEASE don't anyone take offence.What if,like my late brother someone doesn't like a certain race,why do they not have the right to say so?
> Surely if we honestly do live in free country people should be able to air their views.*


Tbh I would pity someone who had such a narrow minded outlook on life & felt they could make such blanket statements.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Of course he has the right to say that! I knew my b-in-laws father hated black people but I still went to his funeral and paid my respects! I accept that he had those views even though I disagree with them - doesnt mean I didnt like the man just meant I would not take my OH to meet him! and we didnt talk about black people! lol - but when people start saying derogatory stuff on a forum or in person about a race all being the same etc - then I think you have to be more careful because you are not talking to everyone who has the same view as you - and you could offend - just means you have to word it differently - I dont think that is denying what you believe in - its just showing respect
> 
> Im editing to say however that I cannot fathom how anyone can hate a whole race of people without knowing one individually -I find that very very sad tbo - Not aiming this at you Jan as I know you have used it as an example - but some people do have those views!


*Like you suzy i could never understand why anyone could hate a whole race,or pretend to.Lets be honest,if they hated all black people as they say,then why go to black doctors.(as an example).
But going back to what we can and can't say because of fear of upsetting someone,i could if i wanted to be touchy complain about how many people take the p*ss out of old people.Why do the younger people,and i include those on here find it quick ok to refer to the oldies as wrinklies?Now is that not double standards? *


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok suzy,and i'm asking this as an example so PLEASE don't anyone take offence.What if,like my late brother someone doesn't like a certain race,why do they not have the right to say so?
> Surely if we honestly do live in free country people should be able to air their views.*


I would argue that they do have the right to say so - but that they would have to be prepared to justify their reasons for hating a *whole* race. If someone could say "I don't like this race because ..........." and come up with a valid reason why they did not like a whole race (rather than the behaviour of some individuals within that race) then I can't see anything wrong with them expressing their opinion - but they would have to be prepared to have their views challenged, and would have to take responsibility for their views upsetting the people of the race they were dislking.

And I'd be very interested to see how anyone could justify disliking a *whole *race!


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## 0nyxx (Aug 9, 2008)

it is about time but the mans such a bloody 2 faced snake i'll hold judgement till we see what he does cos he'll probably replace the money with some other sort of payment for them!


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Like you suzy i could never understand why anyone could hate a whole race,or pretend to.Lets be honest,if they hated all black people as they say,then why go to black doctors.(as an example).
> But going back to what we can and can't say because of fear of upsetting someone,i could if i wanted to be touchy complain about how many people take the p*ss out of old people.Why do the younger people,and i include those on here find it quick ok to refer to the oldies as wrinklies?Now is that not double standards? *


Yes it is - but unless someone says "now hang on a minute" and brings it to attention how can you ever think of changing that view? unless questioned people who have strong and biased, narrowminded views will a) never get to know they are in some cases wrong and b) never get the chance to actually look at what they have said or thought and maybe realise that they were wrong......that IMO is the only way we can stop any sorts of "ISMS" by bringing it to attention and not just being quiet about it - if that upsets those who have those views then that is unfortunate, but did they stop to question who they may upset when saying it in the first place?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Yes it is - but unless someone says "now hang on a minute" and brings it to attention how can you ever think of changing that view? unless questioned people who have strong and biased, narrowminded views will a) never get to know they are in some cases wrong and b) never get the chance to actually look at what they have said or thought and maybe realise that they were wrong......that IMO is the only way we can stop any sorts of "ISMS" by bringing it to attention and not just being quiet about it - if that upsets those who have those views then that is unfortunate, but did they stop to question who they may upset when saying it in the first place?


OMG we agree AGAIN 

Actually i think that at the end of the main debate on this thread both parties had gone a long way towards a better understanding of each others view with one side clarifying their position and the other explaining in a calm and measured way why they were offended and that being better understood, but the subsequent dissection of the thread by late joiners who maybe hadnt seen the full un moderated version overshadowed that somewhat which i think was a bit of a shame.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> OMG we agree AGAIN
> 
> Actually i think that at the end of the main debate on this thread both parties had gone a long way towards a better understanding of each others view with one side clarifying their position and the other explaining in a calm and measured way why they were offended and that being better understood, but the subsequent dissection of the thread by late joiners who maybe hadnt seen the full un moderated version overshadowed that somewhat which i think was a bit of a shame.


You put that so well! Thankyou :thumbup:


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> OMG we agree AGAIN
> 
> Actually i think that at the end of the main debate on this thread both parties had gone a long way towards a better understanding of each others view with one side clarifying their position and the other explaining in a calm and measured way why they were offended and that being better understood, but the subsequent dissection of the thread by late joiners who maybe hadnt seen the full un moderated version overshadowed that somewhat which i think was a bit of a shame.


As a late joiner, i guess i should stop posting :cryin: :cryin:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Savahl said:


> As a late joiner, i guess i should stop posting :cryin: :cryin:


lol NOooooooooo 

edited to add your first post on this thread suggested you had actually read it


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Savahl said:


> As a late joiner, i guess i should stop posting :cryin: :cryin:


If the quality of your posts is an indication to the quality of your dissertation , you have no worries IMVHO


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Bandy said:


> The crux of your argument was treatment you suffered and *therefore* _have a legitimate gripe._





Spellweaver said:


> And here is where your argument falls down. *You are wrong about the crux of my arguement,* as you would know had you read all my posts properly. They are all still there - may I repeat your suggestion to me to read what I TYPED rather than what you think I said. Read all the posts, not just the last few.


So, you're saying you don't have a legitimate gripe?

I said that was the crux of your argument...and you go on in a second to list your gripes in two parts.

Your circular reasoning is getting a bit confusing.



Spellweaver said:


> When you have done that, you will see that the crux of my argument is twofold:
> 
> a) that classing ALL immigrants as freeloaders is racist because it is saying that ALL races other than the indigenous race are freeloaders
> b) Not all immigrants are freeloaders. I used my OH as an example of this.


Those are GRIPES....your husband as an example was the treatment you suffered. What is it you don't get?



Spellweaver said:


> I spoke about our personal experiences of racism for three reasons:
> a) to explain to posters why I personally became upset by the racist comments on here
> b) to show how even unintentional racism has the power to hurt
> c) in a specific reply to your post to show you that people who were complaining about racism were not just "spouting the party line".


Again...it's text on a page. Only YOU control _you._..unless you give others the power over you to control your emotions.

Now...to get to specific's, lets review what I said.
In response to Jan's repeated efforts to show WHY she wasn't racist just because she chose to speak out against immigration, and after pointing to a specific post, I made the statements to you because of your contentions:



Bandy said:


> My comment was not based solely on this thread. *My comment was based on the parrots of society...as I've stated repeatedly.*..and have seen from *time to time* _on this site_.


Again, in response to your issue letting you know that I was not talking about any specifics in this thread, other than to let Jan know there are those in society who can't help spouting the party line.
If ANYONE should have taken issue, it would have been Rainybow...as she was the one Jan was talking to.
How you decided your opinion was taken in the context you've decided it was is beyond me.



Spellweaver said:


> Now, if you had read my posts properly, instead of either not reading them at all, or skim-reading them, you would have seen all this.
> 
> You accused me of skim-reading and not understanding what you meant. Oh look - you have done exactly the same.  Well I never!
> 
> Pot, kettle, black.


Keep your pot and kettle in check...or learn the correct context please.

Here's why I say that...I've just completely dismantled your examples.

Let's look at a few of yours to see WHY *I* say it to YOU.



Bandy said:


> I will save you the heart wrenching details, but rest assured, it was, at the very *least*, _as harmful as those you've listed._


What was your response?



Spellweaver said:


> So - the effect of racism on you has been worse than the effect of racism on me? How childish.


Where oh WHERE do you see me saying mine was worse than yours?

Let's look at another, shall we?



Bandy said:


> Don't try to belittle my opinion without knowing anything about me or how my thoughts on the idea was formed. Your plight of woes back in the 60's and 70's, though very touching, does not make you the be all end all of knowing how it feels to be discriminated against. Nor does it give you the moral high ground to preach from.


Your response?



Spellweaver said:


> I find it very strange that someone who has *purportedly *suffered racism can even begin to argue that anyone else who has suffered it can't possibly know what it's like. Saying "my experience was worse than yours so I know more about it than you, ner ner ner" - again, how childish.


First, I take offense to the purportedly bit. 
Second, where the hell do you get anything about ME saying YOU don't know what it's like?
Third, where in the WORLD do you see me saying in that that mine was worse than yours or that I know more about it?:blink:

I was rebutting the *condescension* in your prior post.

There are just two quick examples of why I dismissed your post with a comment about you kidding and told you to read my posts for what they actually say.

Back to the point for a minute here...

when I say SOME parrot the party line, unless you, yourself do this, you shouldn't have had an issue in the FIRST place.....right?


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

RAINYBOW said:


> but the subsequent dissection of the thread by late joiners who maybe hadnt seen the full un moderated version overshadowed that somewhat which i think was a bit of a shame.


Agreed.

..............


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

OK just for Bandy i have pulled out all my posts in relation to Janices contributions to the thread or the ones in direct reply to her just to clear things up.

I think you will see that at no point did i call Janice a Rascist she has made that assumption herself. Infact i endeavour to point this out to her and clear the matter up before you appear on the thread so i think i have a legitimate "gripe" with being told i "parrot". I am well able to differenciate between a legitimate point being made and an unacceptable (in my book) comment 



RAINYBOW said:


> Thats up to him and it is his job, like i said there is no issue with discussing immigration and applying measures, that isn't rascist.





RAINYBOW said:


> It's not about "daring" to have an opinion, thats just being over dramatic, i accept you may not realise the way you express your opinion is upsetting to some and may not consider yourself rascist but the language used by *some members *has been rascist and would be offensive to muslim people, thats just a fact.
> 
> *
> 
> ...


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bandy said:


> So, you're saying you don't have a legitimate gripe?
> 
> I said that was the crux of your argument...and you go on in a second to list your gripes in two parts.
> 
> Your circular reasoning is getting a bit confusing.


You were wrong about the crux of my argument. You are still wrong about the crux of my argument, even though I spelt it out in detail. You are now fudging the issue by reducing the crux of my argument to mere "gripes". If you are unable to follow a logical argument (as you have shown repeatedly on this thread with your replies to me) or if you are determined to put your own spin on what is written irrespective of what the words say (as you have done with both me and Rainybow) there is not much I can do about that.



Bandy said:


> your husband as an example was the treatment you suffered. What is it you don't get?


:Yawn: - your insistence on putting your own spin on everything is really becoming boring. As I said in my last post - I used my husband as an example of an immigrant who was not a freeloader. Here it is, post #46:

_My husband is an immigrant. He came to this country from Germany when he was six years old, along with his mother (who married an Englishman). He is now 59 years old. He attended school in this country, did an apprenticeship in this country, and has worked in this country all his life, paying taxes and national insurance to this country. And meanwhile there are idle people who were actually born in this country who don't want to work, who have no intention of working, who have never paid anything into the system in their lives, and exist on benefits that my husband - and other immigrant like him - have paid for with their taxes and national insurance. _

What is it you don't get about that?



Bandy said:


> If ANYONE should have taken issue, it would have been Rainybow...as she was the one Jan was talking to.


Firstly, Janice posed a question on an open forum and on an open forum, ANYONE can take issue with ANYTHING that is said. Secondly, you are not all-knowing. Jan and I are friends who mutually respect each other and we were also conversing by pm and have ironed out any issues between us quite amicably.



Bandy said:


> How you decided your opinion was taken in the context you've decided it was is beyond me.


I'm not surprised by that - your replies show very clearly your inability to understand a perfectly logical argument.



Bandy said:


> I've just completely dismantled your examples.


 :lol: :lol: Only in your own mind. :lol: :lol: In reality, you have ignored the crux of my argument in favour of your own misinterpretation of my argument.



Bandy said:


> Where oh WHERE do you see me saying mine was worse than yours?


Oh, let's see - could it be in your post # 211 when you say:

_I see racial attitudes often and a hell of a lot more recently._

and

_Try having a black brother and cousin while living in the South in the US._



Bandy said:


> First, I take offense to the purportedly bit.


Sorry if I caused you offence. However, it still seems strange to me that someone who says they have suffered from racism tries to belittle someone else's experience of suffering from racism. I would never belittle anyone's experiences like that because I know from personal experience how harrowing it can be.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> OMG we agree AGAIN
> 
> Actually i think that at the end of the main debate on this thread both parties had gone a long way towards a better understanding of each others view with one side clarifying their position and the other explaining in a calm and measured way why they were offended and that being better understood, but the subsequent dissection of the thread by late joiners who maybe hadnt seen the full un moderated version overshadowed that somewhat which i think was a bit of a shame.


Didn't think it were too bad before it were moderated myself! And just a reminder I was very active on the thread earlieron and too my knowledge nothing I had said has been moderated!


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Sorry if I caused you offence. However, it still seems strange to me that someone who says they have suffered from racism *tries to belittle someone else's experience of suffering from racism. * I would never belittle anyone's experiences like that because I know from personal experience how harrowing it can be.


And here is why I can completely dismiss your attempts to twist the whole conversation..

Nowhere did I do anything of the sort...here, in this statement, or in any of the failed examples you gave.

When you can comprehend what it is you're reading and reply logically, I'll be able to follow a "logical argument".



Rainybow said:


> Hopefully that is all now as clear as Mud and we can all skip off into the sunset holding hands


Indeed and agree.

I hope you didn't take my post as a denigration of your opinions. Just an example of who, if anyone, should have taken exception to it.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*RAINYBOW Just to set the record straight,where did i say that you had called me racist? *


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bandy said:


> And here is why I can completely dismiss your attempts to twist the whole conversation..
> 
> Nowhere did I do anything of the sort...here, in this statement, or in any of the failed examples you gave.
> 
> When you can comprehend what it is you're reading and reply logically, I'll be able to follow a "logical argument".


ut:

Fine. Have it your way. Feel completely exonerated. : :frown2: :

However, the posts are all there for all to see how wrong you are. 

:Yawn: :Yawn: :Yawn: And now, you are boring me. I have better things to do than carry on such a circular argument. Post again if you want to have the last word - how ever ridiculous or untrue your next post is, I won't be answering it.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *RAINYBOW Just to set the record straight,where did i say that you had called me racist? *


You didn't i was responding to Bandy 

So just to clarify - I never said you were a rascist and you never said i said you were a rascist but i said that Bandy saying i said you was a rascist was not strictly true.

You gotta laugh really


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Didn't think it were too bad before it were moderated myself! And just a reminder I was very active on the thread earlieron and too my knowledge nothing I had said has been moderated!


Do you know what DT, we are always hard on each other and upset each other when we dicuss this BUT i do think by being brutally honest (as i think me and you can be) slowly but surely we gain a better understanding of each others view points.


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## loulou87 (Jan 18, 2011)

I think they need to tighten the policy with regard to letting people in. I dont think its about not having any here but instead having people hee who genuinaly need our help and are prepared to work. At th moment we are an easy ride- we give them much more than they would expect at home hence the influx. 
Saying that the same could be said about any part of the benefit system- it all needs to be looked at. 
Cameron says but doesnt necessarily do!


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## Bandy (Sep 29, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> ut:
> 
> Fine. Have it your way. Feel completely exonerated. : :frown2: :
> 
> ...


Hahahaha...you're awesome.

Thanks for the laughs.....really.


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