# 2 matings. 48hrs apart



## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

hi everyone my bitch did a tie on a tues. The stud dog owner wanted her to have a 2nd mating as He always does a 2nd mating. weds she wasn't interested was just flirting with him so the stud dog owner found a similar color & temperemant dog to the other one. She did 18 min tie with him.
With haveing 2 ties is there more chance of her being pregnant? 
Know You can't tell if a bitch is pregnant until she has the pups or a few days/weeks before but should We start preparing & believe She is going to be pregnant & hopefully have pups or shall we wait until We know for sure. Although that could be about 10 or less days before whelping.
thankyou.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

are you saying she was mated to two different stud dogs? or am i reading it wrong??


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Why would you do that!!!!!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

starshine said:


> yes 2 stud dogs both same colour & temperament.


WHY? 

You do realise if your bitch is pregnant, that all the pups have to be DNA tested and probably registered as two separate litters? you could also have to pay two stud fees.

Two studs for one litter is actively practised in a small number of breeds for reasons which are obvious (and breeders would know their lines inside out and have done an immense amount of research) - but I wouldn't put Cockers in that category.

I am a loss to understand why the stud dog owner would allow this to happen - or is he suggesting you register the litter as being from a single sire   which of course would be totally wrong (firstly because it would be fraud) but it also blocks puppy owners being able to trace the ancestry if a problem arises.

I assume both studs have similar health-test results and pedigrees compatible with your girl? if not, I would personally strongly suggest a mis-mate and if you try again, find a different stud dog. (and owner)


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

Argh! What they said ^^^

Seriously, the stud owner "found another" hmm.


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## I love springers (Dec 3, 2010)

starshine said:


> yes 2 stud dogs both same colour & temperament.[/QUOTE
> 
> WHY ?


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Surely this is a wind up! 

If not, why on earth would you use 2 stud dogs? I presume that the bitch isn't KC, so to you it wouldn't make a difference which one got her pregnant because you can't register the pups anyway? Just make a few ££££?


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

^ That was my thoughts, what are the heath test results of your girl and both boys? Lets hope they are all good and compliment your girl. Are they show or working, do both studs have similar results either in the ring or working ability?

Sounds like your poor girl is just a cash cow


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Amy-manycats said:


> ^ That was my thoughts, what are the heath test results of your girl and both boys? Lets hope they are all good and compliment your girl. Are they show or working, do both studs have similar results either in the ring or working ability?
> 
> Sounds like your poor gilr is justa cash cow


I don''t know the OP of their dogs, and do hope they are all KC registered and health-tested.

BUT - the stud dog owner is deemed to have the better knowledge here and to allow this to happen without explaining the implications is *very wrong* IMHO and for that, I do have a modicum of sympathy for the poster.

I suspect they realise something isn't quite right otherwise they wouldn't have posted.

It won't create "more pups" - and the litter can be registered (after DNA testing) - but it makes you wonder also if this has happened before with other dogs


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Amy-manycats said:


> Argh! What they said ^^^
> 
> Seriously, the stud owner "found another" hmm.


I've heard of bitch owners using an equally nice and health-tested boy at a stud BEFORE any matings - but have to say this is the first time for after a mating  (not incl what I referenced in my earlier post above).


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I imagine both dog or bitch are unregistered or neither owner would have allowed there to be two potential sires. Perhaps a crossbreed mating?

Mismate jabs are not without risk but may be worth considering.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chichi said:


> I imagine both dog or bitch are unregistered or neither owner would have allowed there to be two potential sires. Perhaps a crossbreed mating?
> 
> Mismate jabs are not without risk but may be worth considering.


Chichi - as I've already mentioned - two sires on one litter does happen occasionally in some breeds.

Only recently, an AB was showing up in the ABS as having had too many litters - the reason being - there were two different sires for one of the litters.

As I said - I wouldn't however imagine this breed would be one for which this would apply.

You are probably right in that they are not registered (and unlikely health-tested either) - but if they are, there are implications (such as chipping and DNA testing all the pups to ascertain parentage), and I suspect these have not been explained.

I suspect the idea with getting a similar dog was to "pass the pups off" as one sire- when actually, if it was going to happen - it would actually be better to use two dogs where it's pretty obvious which belong to which sire.

I'm not condoning this - I think the stud dog owner has behaved in a shocking way - and I think the OP needs help, so I do hope they haven't been scared off


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

swarthy said:


> Chichi - as I've already mentioned - two sires on one litter does happen occasionally in some breeds.
> 
> Only recently, an AB was showing up in the ABS as having had too many litters - the reason being - there were two different sires for one of the litters.
> 
> ...


If they didn't intend to use 2 studs in the 1st place (I know nothing about breeding  ) surely the OP would have thought that it was dodgy for the "stud owner" to offer another stud! I know nothing about breeding but even I know that you shouldn't use 2 studs, surely if the OP was clued up on breeding (having done all the relevant health tests and research) they would have known that it was wrong? To me it sounds a bit like they are both in it for the money, and both to blame....sorry if I'm wrong OP! All seems a bit fishy to me.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Really hope the stud is health tested clear for PRA, FN & Glaucoma.

Cockers really really need testing for this, If not you are risking having a litter of blind pups or dogs that could go blind along with the chance of kidney problems.

None of it sounds very good to me


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

in a way i hope this thread is a wind up.ffs


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

swarthy said:


> Chichi - as I've already mentioned - two sires on one litter does happen occasionally in some breeds.
> 
> Only recently, an AB was showing up in the ABS as having had too many litters - the reason being - there were two different sires for one of the litters.
> 
> ...


Thanks for explaining. I did know that there was dna testing for where there litters being registered with two sires. I thought this was for whoopsadaisies. I didn't realise breeders actually deliberately used two Sires 

I was wondering about the crossbreeding element because the OP mentions the breed of the bitch but only uses colour description to describe the Stud. Maybe the OP thought the breed of Stud was obvious, so didn't bother to state it but, in this day of the "designer breeds" you never know if crossbreeding is deliberate.

I agree that the Stud Owner is likely in the wrong here and not the OP and I hope that the OP comes back for further advice/help.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

FWIW I don't think this is a wind-up. Could be wrong but I don't want the OP to be scared away - for the sake of the bitch and potential puppies. Everyone makes mistakes

To answer the OPs question, if I can even remember back that far now, I take the due date from the first tie, though my girls tend to delivery early. Whatever the due date is, just as in humans, it's only a guide and nothing is written in stone but I don't leave my girls unattended for at least a week before the due date and only for odd half hour if needed the week before that. I am the biggest worrier in the world though 

You will need to get your whelping supplies in well in time. They don't come cheap and also make sure you have access to at least £1000 in case of c-section/complications (hopefully that won't be needed but should be taken into account). Don't forget a heatpad for the whelping box. The plug in electric ones are good


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

I am appalled!!! Ive never heard of this being done   I just cant see any circumstances where this would be acceptable


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

CavalierOwner said:


> If they didn't intend to use 2 studs in the 1st place (I know nothing about breeding  ) surely the OP would have thought that it was dodgy for the "stud owner" to offer another stud! I know nothing about breeding but even I know that you shouldn't use 2 studs, surely if the OP was clued up on breeding (having done all the relevant health tests and research) they would have known that it was wrong? To me it sounds a bit like they are both in it for the money, and both to blame....sorry if I'm wrong OP! All seems a bit fishy to me.


I did say I suspect this may well be the reason why they posted - all too often genuine people who want help don't come back because of the response they get (and I include myself in that) - but I honestly feel this poster needs to come back and interact because they aren't in the best situation 

We weren't in the bitch owners shoes and have no idea what reason the stud dog owner may have given for the change.

Stud dog owners will get novice bitch owners - and we always tell wannabe stud dog owners that they have to advise and guide some bitch owners. All the stud dog owners I've been to have given advice and guidance and been supportive - my first and second owners have been there for me in my planning for my next generations - it's difficult to put into words how much I value their knowledge and experience. I have a stud dog mentor for my own boy, and have helped a fellow stud dog owner who hasn't, until recently, owned bitches if they have needed to give the bitch owners advice.

I know many stud only owners who have experienced breeders they can turn to if they need advice with bitches etc - most breeders have people they can tap into for help, advice and support if needed.

It feels a bit like the OP hasn't had any of this - the stud dog owner is generally deemed to have the superior knowledge.

It's a shame they don't ask for advice before they set out on their breeding journey - and for some reason, I just feel that the OP really does need to speak to someone - if that makes me wrong I apologise, but they may genuinely not realise the enormity of what has happened - not only in terms of a dual sired litter but also increased risks of infection - particularly if this is common practice with this particular stud owner.


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

Oh dear, honestly, it sound's like its best to get your girl mis mate jabbed and try again next time with a better stud!


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Well i am off to have my supper ,,,,, yet more spam on toast i think,,,,,,,,,


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2012)

starshine said:


> it was the stud dog owners idea as my bitch had worn his stud dog out.


 after a 22 minute tie ??
funnily enough i have that effect on males too


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## leighhawkes89 (Jun 1, 2012)

diablo said:


> after a 22 minute tie ??
> funnily enough i have that effect on males too


lol that made me laugh :biggrin:


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2012)

leighhawkes89 said:


> lol that made me laugh :biggrin:


glad to be of service  gotta get my kicks somewhere


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2012)

starshine said:


> this seems to have got out of hand. my kc reg cocker spaniel is a blue roan the 2 stud dogs golden brown are also kennel club registered. it was the stud dog owners decision to have 2 matings there were both supposed to have been with the one dog but as the first dog who had my bitch had a 22min tie with was worn out? He used a very similar dog 18 min tie . so any puppies would have the same colour & temperemant as if she had mated the one. In fact one mating is usually enough but he said he always did 2 matings, nothing to loose & everything to gain.


it was a pointless and totally unethical mating that took place , how are you going to know which sire produced which puppy if she is confirmed in whelp , or does that not make a difference to you ??? makes no difference two identical stud dogs were used , fact is it were two dogs who could both be sire to pups produced.
plus i`d question the health of a dog if it were tired out after a 22 minute tie! that is crazy!!!!


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

How do you know which dogs sperm actually fertilized her to produce which which puppy? There can be a mix of both in the litter. Tired out after sex, sounds liek a man but given half a chance they will be back up to full speed pretty quickly and certainly wihtin g2 days! 

Seriously sounds liek the stud owner is pulling afast one. I presume you don't know the health test results of either dog. Do they compliment your girl? If you didn't know about it happening until after it all smells rather fishy to me.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

starshine said:


> this seems to have got out of hand. my kc reg cocker spaniel is a blue roan the 2 stud dogs golden brown are also kennel club registered. it was the stud dog owners decision to have 2 matings there were both supposed to have been with the one dog but as the first dog who had my bitch had a 22min tie with was worn out? He used a very similar dog 18 min tie . so any puppies would have the same colour & temperemant as if she had mated the one. In fact one mating is usually enough but he said he always did 2 matings, nothing to loose & everything to gain.


The issue is that you cannot register the puppies unless you have them dna tested as you wont know who the Sire is as there were two involved. So long as you have budgeted for this and everything else is in order then no problem.

As for the stud dog being worn out, I thought the 2nd dog was put to your bitch on a different day or am I getting confused. My boy is never worn out unfortunately. Give him an hour after a tie and hes ready for more (not that he would be allowed to). Mind you Chihuahuas are randy little beggars:001_huh:

Whatever the situation with your bitch please stick around as there are some really helpful members and you may need some advice or support with the new arrivals when they are due.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

starshine said:


> this seems to have got out of hand. my kc reg cocker spaniel is a blue roan the 2 stud dogs golden brown are also kennel club registered. it was the stud dog owners decision to have 2 matings there were both supposed to have been with the one dog but as the first dog who had my bitch had a 22min tie with was worn out? He used a very similar dog 18 min tie . so any puppies would have the same colour & temperemant as if she had mated the one. In fact one mating is usually enough but he said he always did 2 matings, nothing to loose & everything to gain.


Yes - but two matings with the SAME dog - do you not realise that your bitch could now be quite easily be pregnant by two different dogs?

If your girl has caught, *you cannot legitimately register this litter with the KC without DNA testing all the pups - this will require them to be microchipped - and isn't going to be cheap.*

It's not about how they will appear - it's about the genetics and people needing to know that they have a genuine pedigree - if you register the litter without declaring this, you are doing your puppy buyers and the wider breed a great dis-service (and it is fraudulent).

If the pups are proven to be from two separate sires, then the stud dog owner could charge a second stud fee - he MUST also sign two separate sets of stud papework if the pups are found to have different sires, otherwise you won't be registering any pups with the KC ever.

The concern for me would be how many times has this happened - and how many dogs are potentially out there with the incorrect parentage - what will it do if a new condition arises in the breed and people are tracing back false pedigrees?

Is your bitch and both stud dogs health-tested? do you know if the stud dog owner swabbed both dogs regularly for any STDS or other signs of infection?

If any of them are not health-tested - then I would seriously consider the mis-mate jab - get your bitch health-tested - do some research and start again.

If you do proceed with the litter then you MUST do it by the book - you are doing your girl, your babies, the puppy owners and the breed a great dis-service if you don't (and someone really needs to be looking into whether this is a regular occurrence),

How are you going to explain it to prospective puppy owners how you have two separate litters from the same bitch at the same time?

I really hope you stick around - you have been led up the garden path by someone who should know better - what happens next is up to you.

==============================

as for wearing the stud dog out - these boys have got inordinate stamina - I would have thought the breed in question more than many - why were they just not separated for 1/2 hour, given some sustinence whilst you all had a coffee and then try again?

With my first bitch where we trying for some time - the dogs were given raw egg and milk with glucose and we had a lovely litter of 8 from two ties just over 12 hours apart (the distances involved were big).


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## tra23dog (Mar 1, 2012)

"Whatever the situation with your bitch please stick around as there are some really helpful members and you may need some advice or support with the new arrivals when they are due."

Can I suggest a slightly nicer approach to the op, as it now seems like a genuine post and after some of the comments, I don't blame her for not wanting to stay!


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I have heard of this being done before but usually on the contenent. As others have said you will be able to register the litter with the KC but you will have to have all the pups DNA testedand microchipped and also both the sires DNA tested. The pups can not be tested until they are easily identifiable from each other.

The fact that both dogs were the same colour and temperament means nothing they can thow any colour depending on what colours are further back in the pedigree. I used a brindle dog on a brindle bitch and had brindle pups. I then did a repeat mating 2 years later same dog same bich and got 2 fawn pups and 7 brindle pups. I have twice only had a single tie again 2 diferent stud on 2 different bitches both times with 5 minute ties and both times having a litter of 10 pups.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Sorry OP please stick around, so that the knowledgeable breeders can give you advice! 

Swarthy, can the owner of the stud dogs be reported to the kennel club for doing this?


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## chaka (Feb 19, 2012)

As mentioned , this is sometimes done in vulnerable breeds to increase the chance of a litter. But the owner of the bitch and the stud dogs are fully aware of the implications and the need to DNA test etc. In this case it seems that starshine has been misled by the owner of the stud dog, which would lead me to think the stud owner is involved in other dodgy practices too. Did the stud dog owner give you one or two signed forms starshine? If only one then yes the KC might be interested as it would seem the intention of the stud owner was to deceive, if you have 2 forms then I doubt the KC would be interested.
Can only add what others have said, please stick around starshine, you will get good advice on here from some experienced breeders.


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

starshine said:


> it was the stud dog owners idea as my bitch had worn his stud dog out.


What a load of cr*p, I've heard some rubbish in my time! Stud dog owner should be ashamed of themselves!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

CavalierOwner said:


> Sorry OP please stick around, so that the knowledgeable breeders can give you advice!
> 
> Swarthy, can the owner of the stud dogs be reported to the kennel club for doing this?


Obviously we know nothing other than what the OP has said - they may well have explained to the bitch owner what happens if the bitch catches etc (although I doubt it)

If the above has happened, then there is nothing to report - it might be an undesirable action to some, but it won't have broken any rules that I am aware of providing it is all handled properly.

BUT - if the stud dog owner only signs one set of stud dog paperwork and advises the bitch owner to register the litter with just one of the stud dogs without DNA testing - then YES - it should be reported, because you can bet your bottom dollar this won't be an isolated incident - and the stud owner may have other breeds as well.

=======================================

I think we have to be careful with supposition without knowing all the facts - but - what does seem to be coming across is that the OP doesn't know the implications of what has happened - and if I am wrong, I apologise wholeheartedly.

It's quite feasible the bitch had already caught from the first tie - and the 2nd mating is just the traditional "belt and braces" job - but she accepted the second dog - so it's quite feasible she has caught from him as well.

=========================================

As a complete aside, I got a sense of horror from one or two people who are possibly not breeders,

As far as I am aware, this isn't a common practice in the UK by any means - I would hazard a guess that some instances it is where a bitch has been mated for a long awaited litter and then possibly been caught by a resident dog and the owner wishes to continue with their long awaited litter.

We often see people talk about how much dogs "want it" once they've been stood at stud once, well believe me when I say this can happen to some bitches as well.

My eldest dog is a blatantly scarlet woman and if she happens to encounter one of the males throughout her season, she gets really humphy if they walk away from her - she sits outside my eldest boys season time bedroom and will cry half the night if she is allowed to - she is worse than both my males. Her daughter OTOH was never going to have another litter after the first one, that was very quickly evident 

Anyhow - to the point.

A breed that has an even more limited time window for litters than normal (and if you think about doing it properly, the time window is already very small when you consider possible misses etc).

Most bitches will have two matings - occasionally three - for the majority of bitches, it really won't matter whether they are the same dog or not - and this could be kinder than taking a 2nd or third litter from a large breed having large litters.

It feels distasteful to most humans by it's very nature - but actually - the bitch really is unlikely to notice any difference.


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

Not distateful in the fact there are 2 potential sires just that IMO and obviously I am not in full possesion of the facts, but it seems likely they are not to be registered or to be passed off as something they are not ( ie registered as one sire).

Sadly I know of one occasion where a "pedigree" cocker ( KC paperwork shows show lines and well known dogs) where the dog microchipped to it was very clearly a springer.

I just worry in general how much fraud goes on with passing one dog off as another. Anyway that is for another thread as its OT.

OP stick around you will get good advice on here, where as it sounds like you won't get good advice from the stud owner.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Amy-manycats said:


> Not distateful in the fact there are 2 potential sires just that IMO and obviously I am not in full possesion of the facts, but it seems likely they are not to be registered or to be passed off as something they are not ( ie registered as one sire)


I totally agree with you there - but until the OP returns, we don't actually know this for definite.


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## leighhawkes89 (Jun 1, 2012)

tra23dog said:


> "Whatever the situation with your bitch please stick around as there are some really helpful members and you may need some advice or support with the new arrivals when they are due."
> 
> Can I suggest a slightly nicer approach to the op, as it now seems like a genuine post and after some of the comments, I don't blame her for not wanting to stay!


i agree some people are so harsh on this site.. not very friendly x


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Well the Op was about at 12.07pm today so I'm sure she is still reading the thread & hopefully getting something useful from it.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

leighhawkes89 said:


> i agree some people are so harsh on this site.. not very friendly x


as a newbie how on earth do you know that???? in time you will learn that there are alot of passionate, knowledgeable doggy people on this forum regarding owning, training, breeding dogs etc . a tad harsh me thinks and very misleading.


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## leighhawkes89 (Jun 1, 2012)

dexter said:


> as a newbie how on earth do you know that???? in time you will learn that there are alot of passionate, knowledgeable doggy people on this forum regarding owning, training, breeding dogs etc . a tad harsh me thinks and very misleading.


i wouldnt say newbie .. ive been on here for a few months and i have found that people can be very un tactful with their advice which comes across quite rude and aggressive especially when people ask for advice and they dont know as much as some people on here its very intimidating. but hey thats my opinion.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2012)

starshine said:


> Hi thankyou very much for Your friendly & helpful comments. We got no signed paperwork only a 5 generation certificate of the 1st dog. Which He said We can use that as a receipt & register the pups with the Kennel club online. Yes the 1st dog was tired out on the weds when We went back on the thursday Our bitch was still flirting with Him so that is when the stud dog owner said We will try this other dog. Our bitch then mated with him.
> He says He can microchip for £10 instead of £25 which the kennel club charges & that if there is a problem with the birth We can phone him & he will come & help as he says he probably knows more than the vets.
> It does sound like she was pregnated by the 1st dog who has mated 30 times & has never failed. The stud dog owner determined to do 2 matings as he says he always does 2 matings mated her with other dog just to make sure. So We will count the days from the 1st mating the tues 26th June.


take your bitch for the mismate jab and if your still intent on breeding , look for a more suitable stud dog owner who knows what they are doing.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

You will need to get the puppies DNA tested and then determine which sire each of them has. Whilst you don't need a signature to register a litter online you should always have a signature in case of query - you now don't have any proof that the dog(s) used sired your litter....
whelps are 'created' at a time later than the mating time so you will not be able to tell which of the dogs sired the pups by their birth date, they will all be the same age which ever of the dogs sired them.
You will be fraudulantly registering them unless you determine which dog sired which pups and register them accordingly. 
This is a terrible position which you don't appear to appreciate :-(


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

by the way the 'kennel club' don't microchip - mostly vets, rescue organisations and individuals do this (they have to have had training and passed a test) and they charge an 'appropriate' fee


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I maybe wrong here but the OP said in her first post that she originally took her bitch on day twelve and got a mating.Bearing in mind that the usual is day 10 and 12 although this is not always the case that is why a lot of people do the index tests.Going on the basics that the bitch is a day 10 and 12 girl she would have gone at the end of mating days then the original stud wouldn't be worn out,he would have known his job and knew that she was passed her days,where as the younger dog could have just been cock happy if you get my drift.Does anyone realise what i am trying to say cos now my brain is hurting,must leave the vodka alone on Saturday night.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Bjt said:


> I maybe wrong here but the OP said in her first post that she originally took her bitch on day twelve and got a mating.Bearing in mind that the usual is day 10 and 12 although this is not always the case that is why a lot of people do the index tests.Going on the basics that the bitch is a day 10 and 12 girl she would have gone at the end of mating days then the original stud wouldn't be worn out,he would have known his job and knew that she was passed her days,where as the younger dog could have just been cock happy if you get my drift.Does anyone realise what i am trying to say cos now my brain is hurting,must leave the vodka alone on Saturday night.


Whatever the outcome - the bitch has been covered by two sires - the litter cannot be registered without proof of parentage - even if the pups turn out to be from one sire - that's the luck of the draw - but there is absolutely no way of knowing this without testing and to register without testing would be fraudulent, even if the OP chose not to register the litter - she still has a duty to the pups and their owners to know who the parents are.

Starshine - as Penny said - the KC don't mcrochip - it's vets or dedicated chippers - the latter are usually cheaper.

====================================

Just to re-enforce what someone else has said about colouring - two dogs being "similar" means nothing.

I have Labs - one of my chocolates carries yellow - if I took her to a stud owner to use their black carrying chocolate dog - I would have black and chocolate puppies.

If the stud then decided to do the same - an identical dog - even a litter mate - could carry chocolate and yellow.

I then go from a black / chocolate litter to a rainbow litter including liver pigmented yellows - all is not as it seems when looking at the outside of the dog.

Any person knowing the registered sire, would VERY QUICKLY pick up that all wasn't right with the litter and could well report it - and the same could easily happen here.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I know nothing about breeding, but it seems to me that if your stud owner is trying to get himself the job of microchipping, on the pretext that the Kennel Club charge a lot more, when the kc don't do it at all, that should tell you he is a bit of a con artist.

Have you seen pedigree papers for the second dog? I would be concerned that the first dog has the pedigree and health tests but not the fertility, so he has foisted this second dog off as a substitute.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

leighhawkes89 said:


> i wouldnt say newbie .. ive been on here for a few months and i have found that people can be very un tactful with their advice which comes across quite rude and aggressive especially when people ask for advice and they dont know as much as some people on here its very intimidating. but hey thats my opinion.


apologies for referring to you as a newbie...................... your join date shows June the majority of people on here aren't rude just very caring and passionate about animals.sometime op's ask for questions after the event has happened which is frustrating. JMHO.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I think that talking about the mismate option is a waste of time as the OP doesnt seem to consider that necessary.

I sincerely believe the OP is genuinely not understanding the complexities of registering a litter where there are two potential sires. 

The stud owner has behaved appallingly. Shameful. I wonder if his dogs are actually kc reg if he is only giving a pedigree over. Obviously if its a copy of a kc printed pedigree the studs reg number will be on it but if not and the OP does not have a kc reg number she cannot register litter regardless of this "whos the daddy" issue. That is why the form should have been handed to OP with all studs information (and stud owners signature).


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

What type is your girl. You shouldn't mate parti to solid in show types and it's a sign of a pet breeder, you could get a whole litter of mismarks. The colours you get don't neccessarily tell you which is the parent, it depends what the parents carry and if the parents don't carry any other colours then going by the parents you will get all black puppies. All 3 dogs need to be tested for prcd_PRA, FN, gPra, cPra and glaucoma. You are potentially making a huge mistake letting this continue .


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## leighhawkes89 (Jun 1, 2012)

dexter said:


> apologies for referring to you as a newbie...................... your join date shows June the majority of people on here aren't rude just very caring and passionate about animals.sometime op's ask for questions after the event has happened which is frustrating. JMHO.


i understand that i wasnt saying everyone is .. but sometimes they can be a bit rude ( at the begining of thread their were comments which i found pretty rude) and yeah it is frustrating when people ask after doing it. JUNE hmm it feels longer well yes i am techinically still a newbie


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

leighhawkes89 said:


> i understand that i wasnt saying everyone is .. but sometimes they can be a bit rude ( at the begining of thread their were comments which i found pretty rude) and yeah it is frustrating when people ask after doing it. JUNE hmm it feels longer well yes i am techinically still a newbie


Unfortunately, of late, it does feel a bit like what in gods name are we likely to read this time '( and I should imagine many really feel they would get more response banging their head against a brick wall 

Some posters are trolls - sometimes this only comes to light some way into the thread 

My view on this particular scenario is, it's so "off the wall" I just couldn't see someone making something like this up


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

starshine said:


> this seems to have got out of hand. my kc reg cocker spaniel is a blue roan the 2 stud dogs golden brown are also kennel club registered. it was the stud dog owners decision to have 2 matings there were both supposed to have been with the one dog but as the first dog who had my bitch had a 22min tie with was worn out? He used a very similar dog 18 min tie . so any puppies would have the same colour & temperemant as if she had mated the one. In fact one mating is usually enough but he said he always did 2 matings, nothing to loose & everything to gain.


So you've bred your parti coloured cocker, to 2 SOLID gold stud dogs.....what a shambles!!

If there are pups you can't register them until you know who the dad is, ALL 3 of the possible parents should have been Optigen/Antagene/BVA/KC eye tested for cpra, gpra and Glaucoma and now any pups that 'may' arrive will have to be DNA profiled along with all 3 parents to confirm who the daddy is.

I really hope this is a wind up and not for real. My stud dog Dylan has had matings where he's tied for 50 minutes and mated her again 48 hours later, what utter rubbish saying he was 'worn out'


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I find the above quite interesting.It seems that each breed of dog has its own little rules as to how you get your colours.I would have thought that a roan might have acted a bit like a merle and shouldn't be put with another one but apparently not.


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

Breeding parti colour cockers to solids you risk getting miss marked pups


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

So with the roans do the spots/flecks have to be in a certain pattern or when you say mismarked do you mean the colouring on the head?I was in the vets once and saw a litter of orange and blue roan puppies they were absolutely gorgeous.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

SharonM said:


> Breeding parti colour cockers to solids you risk getting miss marked pups


Well it looks like these pups will be pet only because I very much doubt they will end up registered given the curcumstances. So long as markings only affect their looks (I am assuming) and arent a threat to health as in some merle breedings.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chichi said:


> Well it looks like these pups will be pet only because I very much doubt they will end up registered given the curcumstances. So long as markings only affect their looks (I am assuming) and arent a threat to health as in some merle breedings.


or worse still (and never thought I would say this about registered litters) they will be registered with the wrong sire  :mad5: :mad5: :mad5: :mad5:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

swarthy said:


> or worse still (and never thought I would say this about registered litters) they will be registered with the wrong sire  :mad5: :mad5: :mad5: :mad5:


Tbh it wouldnt surprise me if there are many litters registered under the wrong sire. I think the world of breeding, registered or not, is likely plagued with documentation manipulation.

I have also heard that some breeders register more bitches than are actually in a litter so they can breed more litters than allowed from a single bitch. That really is sick.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

starshine said:


> Swarthy as You are the one who seems to know the most. Please can You advice me i did ask the stud dog owner for a receipt he said i could use the printed out 5 generation certificate which does have the dogs kennel club number on it & i do have their address on it. As it was his idea to use the other dog (probably to make sure my bitch got pregnant ) he won't charge anymore money. How shall i deal with the dna issue?. Apart from some comments i am taking this serious if i wasn't i would not have posted on here.
> i feel i have been seriously mislead by the stud dog owner. Now what i thought was going to be an exciting, but hard working event. i have had pups before but they were from a border collie so no kc register needed. Might be messed up by this stud dog owner using another dog.


I know we always advise people to do their research, but I do feel for you, you've had short shrift from the stud dog owner and there are people here that feel the same - you've been backed into a corner on the spot and taken the advice of the supposedly more experienced party.

Sadly, we see many made up scenarios on here, it's enough to make people's blood boil - my gut tells me that this situation is very real, as I don't think anyone could make it up.

My gut instincts also tell me that deep down you knew something wasn't right, and this is why you've posted here. (I could be wrong on all counts of course).

I am out and about tomorrow, but will make some enquiries on how the DNA testing will work with determining which dog has sired which pup.

What I can tell you however, is that at present, from what I can tell, you don't have the KC registration details of the second dog - so you have no idea of whether he is even registered - or if he even could be closely related to your girl.

This means, the stud dog owner must provide you with the pedigrees and a signed stud dog form for each dog used - I've still got all my forms safe and sound (and I am rubbish with paperwork).

If the dogs had any health-test certificates, then you need copies of these as well.

==============================

Put yourself in the prospective puppy buyers shoes for a moment - if you were looking for a pup, and came across a breeder who had a litter by two different sires, what would you do?

An experienced breeder who has intentionally taken these steps because of the nature of their breed will be able to explain in great detail with clarity and certainty of why they've done what they did.

You, OTOH got stitched up by the stud dog owner and I do feel for you, but I wouldn't expect most quality prospective owners to be quite so understanding - you are also a novice owner and I would bet my bottom dollar the stud dog owner won't support you if you take the correct route.

=======================

Personally, if i was in your shoes, I am in agreement with many others that have posted and would be getting your girl a mis-mate jab -

Then, if you are determined to breed, get her health tests done (assuming they are not already) - then dependent on her results and your girls breeding, find a show or working kennel with health-tested dogs, whose owners will be able to guide you in everything from before mating through to selling the pups.

Put what has happened over the last couple of days down to experience and do it properly.

I will get the information you need, but in your situation, I don't agree that the pregnancy should continue.

As a first time breeder, you have been placed in an impossible situation whereby, ultimately, you may not even be able to register some (or possibly all) of the pups in this litter.

The puppy market is generally rather sluggish at present, possibly with the exception of some of the rarer breeds.

Your pups are going to be doubly hard to sell - I don't know the average litter size for your breed - but are you really up to potentially having 6 x 15 week old pups trashing your house?

Are you also up to facing a situation where through maybe not using the health schemes, you have not taken all possible steps to ensure that the pups are not protected from all possible health-conditions.

Some health-tests are not a guarantee the pups will be healthy - but they minimise the risk of problems and also enable you to sleep comfortably in your bed (please accept my apologies if your girl has had the required test for the breed - but from what I've seen, this issue has not really been covered on this thread).

As I said above, I will endeavour to get you the information you require, but PLEASE - I implore you, think seriously about this situation and take the recommended route, then do things properly.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I am sure Swarthy can advise you on the way forward with this problem. I do think though that what you need to do is tackle the stud owner regarding this issue of two potential sires. Like you say this should be a very exciting time not you worrying like mad. He needs to understand that his conduct is in question and he needs to come up with some answers as to cost of dna testing or if you decide to mismate the bitch your stud fee should be returned and he should cover mismate costs in my opinion.

I imagine you havent got a signed receipt for a reason....... No comeback to stud owner if you do kick up a fuss


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

starshine said:


> There is no way i am doing a mis match that is like having an abortion.:frown2: i have a 6yr old cocker spaniel bitch who i tried breeding from when she was 2.5 she did a tie & was mated twice over 2 seasons to the same dog. She didn't get pregnant 1 vet said it was pyometra, 1 said it was hormones. It was a phantom pregnancy Stud dog owner very helpful gave me signed stud paper. Got this bitch as i really want to breed & have one like her. So was dellighted when she did mate twice & yes the stud dog owner did seem very helpful. Now he has his money & the 2 matings he was very keen on doing have been done i may not hear from him again. i have emailed him saying the kennel club litter application which he said i could do online says the paper version has to be signed also is the other stud dog kc reg? Yes my bitch has had health tests.


It isn't like having an abortion at all, and the dog won't know any different. Bitches won't make an association with being mated / being pregnant and having babies until the first pup has whelped - this is when you start to discover whether your bitch is mother material or whether she may reject or try to kill the pups (both happen  )

As I said, I will get the information for you - *but please think about the implications of what has happened - are you prepared to be left to raise a whole litter?*

From what I have gleaned, your bitch has only just been mated, the cells will still be dividing - there are no babies there yet - it might be a better option than producing pups of unknown parentage and therefore unknown serious health-risks. 
===========================

What health tests has your bitch had done? Have all three dogs got current clear eye certificates?

What health-tests did the original sire have done? Have you had copies of the health certificates from the stud dog owner?

Was the second dog KC registered? has he had all the relevant health-tests for the breed? (as you don't know his pedigree, you can't answer this).

Do you know what these health-tests are and what the results mean and have you bred accordingly (you won't know because you don't know anything about the second stud dog),.

For example, if your girl is a genetic carrier for PRA - and one (or both) of the sires are also carriers, you will produce pups that could go completely blind.

If one or both parents is genetically affected but still passing their eye tests, this can significantly increase the chances of early onset PRA.

What are the hipscores of your bitch and the sire? was the second sire also scored and what were his results?

Is at least one of the parents genetically clear for FN? if they are not, you could produce pups that suffer kidney failure before they are two years of age 

All food for thought. If you are breeding puppies you need to try and ensure that they have the best possible start in life - by ensuring that one parent is genetically clear for both FN and PRA you are ensuring that the pups will never be affected by these conditions.

By hipscoring the parents and ensuring the dogs used for breeding have scores around the breed average (currently 13 for Cockers) - you are minimising the risk of any pups produced suffering from hip problems, the effects of which can be painful for the dog and devastating and rather expensive for the owners (I have a friend whose bill for hip replacements in her dog has topped £30K).

Yes, you can advise puppy buyers to have good quality insurance cover - but there have been incidences of insurances companies checking the status of parents health results before paying out, and this is something I can see increasing as like everyone else, the underwriters seek to save money - this could well result in dogs being PTS.



starshine said:


> i know all breeders are not as strict? as others eg when i got 1st bitch she was already kc registered yet when i got 2nd bitch she was not registered until the breeder had sold all the other pups so had to wait weeks for paper work.


 the pups should be registered ideally by around 4 weeks - the cost is NOT prohibitive at just £13 a pup (and probably actually the cheapest element of breeding).

How can you be happy with a breeder who has done this? has this breeder endorsed the KC paperwork? have they stipulated conditions under which they will lift these endorsements?

Dogs and Bitches with endorsements on their KC registration cannot have pups registered until the breeder notifies the KC it is OK to lift them.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

For goodness sake lay off the dramatics!

The bitch has mated twice by different sires, yes it's wrong, and completely irresponsible of the stud owner to take advantage, especially of someone as inexperienced as this bitch owner seems to be.

If it was me I would cut my losses, not think about registering and DNA testing...a complete and utter unnecessary faff in this situation. 

Sell the puppies as non registered, they weren't being bred for show with this combination of colours anyway.

Most of all the OP needs to learn from this situation and do her research before attempting to breed again.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Darth said:


> For goodness sake lay off the dramatics!
> 
> The bitch has mated twice by different sires, yes it's wrong, and completely irresponsible of the stud owner to take advantage, especially of someone as inexperienced as this bitch owner seems to be.
> 
> ...


So rather than DNA test or have the jab, you think its better to have an unregistered litter? The pups will then get new homes and probably end up being bred from which means that their puppies will also be unregistered! If this bitch produces 6 pups (don't know how many this breed has) and some or all of these pups have puppies, and then their offspring have puppies, imagine how many unregistered puppies will be born all because of this 1 mistake.

Does it matter whether they were bred for show or not? I bought KC reg dogs and I have no intentions of showing or breeding my dogs, 2 have already been "done".


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Darth said:


> For goodness sake lay off the dramatics!
> 
> The bitch has mated twice by different sires, yes it's wrong, and completely irresponsible of the stud owner to take advantage, especially of someone as inexperienced as this bitch owner seems to be.
> 
> ...


Yes - why not produce even more dogs of unknown ancestry and unknown health results (and in this instance unknown names) and home them to just anyone who doesnt know their arse from their elbow when it comes to ensuring the pups they buy won't die from kidney failure by the age of 2, or go blind early on in their lives

Much less hassle for WHO exactly - the breeder yes - never mind the pups or their ownersor proportionately the higher percentage of unregistered pups that end up in rescue :mad5: :mad5: :mad5: :mad5: :mad5:


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

I'm surprised the stud DOGS owner didn't charge 2 stud fees as they used two dogs!!!! This is so wrong in every way possible. I'm sure the KC and Cocker Club would be interested in this.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2012)

Darth said:


> For goodness sake lay off the dramatics!
> 
> The bitch has mated twice by different sires, yes it's wrong, and completely irresponsible of the stud owner to take advantage, especially of someone as inexperienced as this bitch owner seems to be.
> 
> ...


it`s completely irresponsible of the owner now they are in the `know` to let such a breeding continue , but hey , that`s only my opinion.
breeding is such a complicated exercise [which is why i`ve never bothered] but if i were ever to consider producing a litter i wouldn`t be throwing all my eggs in one basket , i`d want to get things completely right because to me , failure isn`t an option , my reputation would mean a lot to me there would be no way i would risk leaving it in tatters.
they are learning now so there are no excuses for having , a litter with two different sires and no excuses regarding not being in the `know`.
to encourage the the selling of an unregistered litter , is completely irresponsible because puppy buyers are still going to ask questions and if they have their wits about them , walk away.
yes people buy dogs with the sole intention of being pets , that does not have to mean they shouldn`t be looking at quality well bred puppies , which sorry to say , these would not be.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Do you really think a breeder that breeds solid to parti and obviously without any clue about breeding is really going to go to the extent of DNA testing each pup? Surely the litters being bred for monetary gain and there won't be any if they pay out for these tests.

Is the stud dog owner is going to allow samples from the studs? 

Of course the stud dog owner won't allow it it'll only prove he did wrong!


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Darth said:


> Do you really think a breeder that breeds solid to parti and obviously without any clue about breeding is really going to go to the extent of DNA testing each pup? Surely the litters being bred for monetary gain and there won't be any if they pay out for these tests.
> 
> Is the stud dog owner is going to allow samples from the studs?
> 
> Of course the stud dog owner won't allow it it'll only prove he did wrong!


This is why the Mismate jab has been suggested! If the OP doesn't want the hassle of DNA testing or the Stud dog owner is uncooperative, then the jab is the best solution IMHO. Let her have the jab, do a lot of research and find another reputable stud dog owner for her next season!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Have to say that I agree with Darth. This is a case of damage limitation. It would be wrong to register the pups but the OP clearly never was going to mismate the bitch and dna testing is just not going to be happening. The stud owner wants showing up for his conduct but he will have to have someone blow the whistle on him. That wont be the OP because this would affect the sale prospects of the litter.

Unregistered puppies are bred every day. Not ideal but ethics are not really coming into this litter on any level.

I just hope the puppies are healthy and the new owners are not deceived. The pups likely wont be show winning beauties but they will probably make gorgeous pets so long as all three dogs have had the relevant health tests for this breed.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

OP has already said....mismate isn't an option she wants to consider.

So what's left? 

DNA which will cost a considerable amount of money and a fight with an un co-operative stud dog owner or sell unregistered.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

If the OP goes ahead with this litter without DNA testing then he/she are extremely irresponsible! Harsh but true. I will NEVER say 'go ahead with the litter and don't get them registered because it's less hassle and it happens everyday" it is WRONG. 

OP could you live with the fact that you WILL be responsible for more dogs ending up in shelters because this is what will happen if you have this litter and then their offspring have litters............


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Registered pups end up in rescue!

Why should these be more likely to?

Come on.....get in the real world and not the one breeders on here try to create!


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Darth said:


> Registered pups end up in rescue!
> 
> Why should these be more likely to?
> 
> Come on.....get in the real world and not the one breeders on here try to create!


Who said that registered pups don't end up in rescues? I didn't, and thats exactly why I will never breed because I wouldn't want to be responsible for any of my pups ending up in shelters! I bet there are far more unregistered dogs in rescues than registered ones.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

OP could you live with the fact that you WILL be responsible for more dogs ending up in shelters because this is what will happen if you have this litter and then their offspring have litters............

Did this not imply they will end up in rescue because they are unregistered? And their offspring will too? 

You quote WILL... You have no proof they will so don't try to make the OP feel quilty with your holyier than thou comments.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Darth said:


> OP could you live with the fact that you WILL be responsible for more dogs ending up in shelters because this is what will happen if you have this litter and then their offspring have litters............
> 
> Did this not imply they will end up in rescue because they are unregistered? And their offspring will too?
> 
> You quote WILL... You have no proof they will so don't try to make the OP feel quilty with your holyier than thou comments.


Listen we are never going to agree so we may as well leave it here until the OP comes back, if he/she comes back!

I think I'm right, and you think that your right! We could go on forever.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

starshine said:


> Hi thankyou very much for Your friendly & helpful comments. We got no signed paperwork only a 5 generation certificate of the 1st dog. Which He said We can use that as a receipt & register the pups with the Kennel club online. Yes the 1st dog was tired out on the weds when We went back on the thursday Our bitch was still flirting with Him so that is when the stud dog owner said We will try this other dog.


Your bitch (even though still flirting) may have gone over - experienced stud dogs know when the time is right. He wouldn't have been tired out - and if he was I'd be seriously worried about his health and him siring a litter.


> Our bitch then mated with him.
> He says He can microchip for £10 instead of £25 which the kennel club charges & that if there is a problem with the birth We can phone him & he will come & help as he says he probably knows more than the vets.


The Kennel Club doesn't do microchipping as has been said. 


> It does sound like she was pregnated by the 1st dog who has mated 30 times & has never failed. The stud dog owner determined to do 2 matings as he says he always does 2 matings mated her with other dog just to make sure. So We will count the days from the 1st mating the tues 26th June.


The most responsible way to continue would be a mismate and find a better stud dog. If you are not prepared to do this, then you will need to dna test the puppies to ascertain who the sire is. I've not done in myself, but would guess the cost is around £25 - £30 per pup. You will also need to get dna tests from both studs used. Whether or not the stud owner would be prepared to do this is another factor as they sound like the worst kind of con artist/byb and I agree with Darth that he may not want to do this as it could implicate him in fraud unless you say it was an accident.

Quite honestly, once you have made your decision and if going to for the dna testing the puppies option after that has been done, then I would report him to the KC.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Seems to me that this thread is just going around and covering what has already been said. I think Darth and myself are just trying to be realistic on the outcome of this shambles. To me, the worst possible option is that the puppies get registered under the first Sire (that is indeed if the pedigree even belongs to that dog - I wouldnt trust this stud owner an inch). 

I think it pointless to keep advising mismate as an option when its been suggested a dozen times and it just isnt going to happen.

If dna tests go ahead then I will eat my hat (if I had one). Even if the OP decided to go this way (dont hold your breath on that) the stud dog owner would be officially admitting that he had behaved appallingly. Again...... Not going to happen imo.

If members keep pushing for mismate and dna testing I can just see the OP putting her fingers in her ears and singing lah....lah.....lah whilst registering a litter that potentially has 2 sires under 1.

And for the record...... Just because the puppies may end up unregistered doesnt mean that the breeder wouldnt take an unwanted puppy back and rehome it herself. At the end of the day a registered puppy is just the same as an unregistered one where some breeders ethics are concerned. Some registered puppies breeders wouldnt take a puppy back (this I know for sure) whereas I know some breeders of unreg puppies that would never see a pup they bred go into rescue. I just hope the OP after making some mistakes really puts her all into finding good homes for pups and is responsible enough to ensure that not one of this litter end up in rescue.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

An un health tested cocker litter would be a different kettle of fish surely?

Selling the oblivious general public puppies that could go blind :frown2: 

Cocker spaniels NEED tested for PRA, FN, glaucoma.

Wonder if the stud own is just a tarted up puppy farmer?

I would be deeply upset if that was my bitch and I wouldn't let the stud owner dictate what stud to use in the first place! 'You' payed him money!!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

chichi said:


> Seems to me that this thread is just going around and covering what has already been said. I think Darth and myself are just trying to be realistic on the outcome of this shambles. To me, the worst possible option is that the puppies get registered under the first Sire (that is indeed if the pedigree even belongs to that dog - I wouldnt trust this stud owner an inch).
> 
> I think it pointless to keep advising mismate as an option when its been suggested a dozen times and it just isnt going to happen.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with this - I hope that a lot more effort and research is done when homing these puppies than has been done regarding the breeding.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> An un health tested cocker litter would be a different kettle of fish surely?
> 
> Selling the oblivious general public puppies that could go blind :frown2:
> 
> ...


OP says all 3 dogs have Had relevant health tests.

This is the OPs first go at breeding and the Stud Owner took advantage of that imo.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

chichi said:


> OP says all 3 dogs have Had relevant health tests.
> 
> This is the OPs first go at breeding and the Stud Owner took advantage of that imo.


Maybe, but I find it hard to believe that someone who has done enough research to get the dogs 'health tested' hasn't bothered to find out about matings. Don't forget many say their dogs are 'health tested' when all they mean is a standard health check at the vets.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2012)

chichi said:


> OP says all 3 dogs have Had relevant health tests.
> 
> This is the OPs first go at breeding and the Stud Owner took advantage of that imo.


actually i can`t see where OP states their dogs have been health tested , it`s not the the OP`s first go at breeding , previously bred a litter of border collies.

eta , just seen it , no mention of what tests though and no mention of whether the stud dog owner has carried them out too.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

chichi said:


> OP says all 3 dogs have Had relevant health tests.
> 
> This is the OPs first go at breeding and the Stud Owner took advantage of that imo.


Some people think a simple vet check is a health test.

The stud owner would of given the op a copy or at least shown them all the studs test results, you can also look them all up on the Kennel club site. Although when the op was researching which stud to use I hope that was part of her research to find a clear stud to use.

It's a real shame it's happened to the op and I really hope the litter will all be fit, healthy and have good lives. Only the Op can make sure of that, she has potentially brought lives into this world and she will have to deal with all the consequences of doing this.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

Seeming as this owner is obviously in it to make money off her pet regardless of health/welfare issues lets put it another way - OP if you can't sell the whole litter, and people are being more picky with where puppies come from now thanks to all the publicity dog health issues are receiving, then can you afford to keep all the dogs in the litter which could be 7 or so? Bearing in mind the food costs, vaccinating, microchipping etc, not to mention training them all and the space needed?? - no decent breeder breeds without being able to do this. 
Also you need to be able to take back any dog throughout its whole lifetime, and seeming you haven't health tested any of the parents, then you could get dogs ditched back on you who need expensive treatment.

You also could be sued by puppy owners if their pups turn out to have genetic health problems that should have been tested for, not to mention if you register the pups as sired by one dog and those people go out and dna test their pup with a view to breeding or whatever and it turns out to be a lie - you could be done then for fraud!! 
I think the best thing for this dog is a jab - (and no the mismate is not the same as an abortion, it stops the cells from implanting, they are not fetuses at this point, and even if they were it is a dog and not a person so they have no clue that they are in pup until they pop out so no emotional attachment what so ever!!!!) 
TBH an emergency spey would be the better option for you, not to mention the cheaper one, if you want a puppy then you will save yourself a bomb by going out and buying one not breeding!!! 
I would also report the stud dog owner to the KC as using 2 dogs on one bitch is a REALLY bad thing and has BYB written all over it!!:frown2::frown2:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I am quite sure you CANNOT be sued if a pup has a genetic problem. What a minefield that would open up as the vast majority of bitches bred from are NOT health tested. (unless belonging to forum members of course)


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

yes you can, it happened to someone i know that didn't have her bitch hip scored and one of the puppies had HD.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I am quite sure you CANNOT be sued if a pup has a genetic problem. What a minefield that would open up as the vast majority of bitches bred from are NOT health tested. (unless belonging to forum members of course)


You CAN and it has happened so there is judicial precedent. I think the reason why it is not more common is that most are either unaware, or just accept it and deal with the consequences having fallen in love with their puppy.


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

SharonM said:


> *So you've bred your parti coloured cocker, to 2* *SOLID gold stud dogs.....what a shambles!!*
> 
> *If there are pups you can't register them until you know who the dad is, ALL 3 of the possible parents should have been Optigen/Antagene/BVA/KC eye tested for cpra, gpra and Glaucoma and now any pups that 'may' arrive will have to be DNA profiled along with all 3 parents to confirm who the daddy is.*
> 
> I really hope this is a wind up and not for real. My stud dog Dylan has had matings where he's tied for 50 minutes and mated her again 48 hours later, what utter rubbish saying he was 'worn out'


Does anyone really believe (if this is not a wind-up) that the OP really gives a stuff about any of what we on here know to be the right things to do? Unfortunately the world is littered with folk who do just what they please and beggar the consequences. Sadly when animals or children are involved they can't speak up for themselves.


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## chaka (Feb 19, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> You CAN and it has happened so there is judicial precedent. I think the reason why it is not more common is that most are either unaware, or just accept it and deal with the consequences having fallen in love with their puppy.


Ditto this, if a dog is found to have a hereditary condition and the breeder has not taken all necessary steps to prevent it (e.g. only breeding from a dog with low hip score etc) then you can be sued. It has happened on more than one occasion that I am aware of.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Darth said:


> Registered pups end up in rescue!
> 
> Why should these be more likely to?
> 
> Come on.....get in the real world and not the one breeders on here try to create!


Nobody is trying to "create a world" - yes, pups from all levels end up in rescue - but a MUCH higher percentage from BYB and PF - where often the dogs don't even look like the breed they are meant to be 

if people think it's OK to let this litter go unregistered and for nothing to be reported on the stud dog owner - it says little of their own opinion on the dog breeding world - this will most definitely NOT be an isolated incident - and it is wrong on so many levels now the facts are known


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I am quite sure you CANNOT be sued if a pup has a genetic problem. What a minefield that would open up as the vast majority of bitches bred from are NOT health tested. (unless belonging to forum members of course)


Don't you believe it - an insurance company recently refused to pay out for treatment on an eye condition until they saw the eye test results from the parents.

They did pay out because as required, the parents had the correct eye test paperwork in place at the time of the litter.

When insurance companies are forking out £30K in treatment for a single dog - are you telling me they are going to keep doing this without evidence of health-testing?

YES - dogs get unlucky - I own one - but as insurance companies look to recoup costs which they will never ever get back in premiums (I've claimed more for one of my girls than her premiums up to 9 will cost and there are many more).

Ultimately, it means owners are going to be out of pocket - it might not be next week, but if a few cases of this have gone public and reported in the dog and main press, you can almost guarantee these situations are not as isolated as we might think.

It doesn't take much to think where it might go next  (and it seemingly already has with legal precedence in existence)


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I really hope we don't go down the route of suing for just about everything in this Country as some other Countries. That would take responsibility away from the Puppy Buyer. 

As for health tests in this case, we can only go by what the OP says. I have a feeling that some PF'ers are becoming judge and jury on this matter

I only offer my penneth because I want to help if I can. I always believe that by gentle persuasion, you can sometimes lead people in the right direction. I think by accusing the OP of lying and breeding simply for profit and the like, all you are going to do is run her out of town and that's not helping anybody, including those innocent puppies that will be brought into this world regardless of Bob X's and Shirley Y's opinions on the mismate option. Like I said earlier; DAMAGE LIMITATION

I agree that it does sound strange that somebody would do all the relevant tests and then go to a money grabbing, unethical toad for a Stud but until we know different, we have to go by what we are told and not make out that everything the OP says is lies......................just my opinion. 

I don't think it gets anyone anywhere to do the "mismate" chant, when clearly that will not be happening here!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

swarthy said:


> Nobody is trying to "create a world" - yes, pups from all levels end up in rescue - but a MUCH higher percentage from BYB and PF - where often the dogs don't even look like the breed they are meant to be
> 
> if people think it's OK to let this litter go unregistered and for nothing to be reported on the stud dog owner - it says little of their own opinion on the dog breeding world - this will most definitely NOT be an isolated incident - and it is wrong on so many levels now the facts are known


Nobody says it's okay. Quite the opposite. Unfortunately, in this scenario, the option is a registered litter to a Stud that may not be the Sire. Like I keep saying, mismate doesn't seem to be an option in this case, so you have to do the least damage possible and I believe registering this litter would be worse than not registering it.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chichi said:


> I really hope we don't go down the route of suing for just about everything in this Country as some other Countries. That would take responsibility away from the Puppy Buyer.
> 
> As for health tests in this case, we can only go by what the OP says. I have a feeling that some PF'ers are becoming judge and jury on this matter
> 
> ...


I agree with what you are saying - but whichever way you look at it - the OP has absolutely NO idea of who the second sire of these pups are -so by the very nature of this situation, the health-results of at least the 2nd dog used are unknown.

Even if the health-tests are done, if the bitch is not clear on all DNA fronts, it could open up all sorts of cans of worms for the pups - that's not mud-slinging, it's a fact  It's no secret that I support the breeding of recessive gene carriers when done correctly

They have a pedigree for the first dog, and it was clearly the intention of the stud owner that all pups would be registered under the name of the first dog - the cynic in me is churning all sorts of ideas around on this, and none of them feel particularly positive. 

=============================

Being out and about, I've probably missed some of the further discussions on the mis-mate - but, particularly in the very early stages, it is not abortion in any shape or form, and ultimately could cause far less stress over time.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

a MUCH higher percentage from BYB and PF - where often the dogs don't even look like the breed they are meant to be 

I'm sorry but I don't agree with the sweeping statement above.

I don't see why a dog from a BYB or PF would end up in rescue any more than a registered dog.

Besides what kind of owners put their dog into rescue because of its looks?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

swarthy said:


> I agree with what you are saying - but whichever way you look at it - the OP has absolutely NO idea of who the second sire of these pups are -so by the very nature of this situation, the health-results of at least the 2nd dog used are unknown.
> 
> Even if the health-tests are done, if the bitch is not clear on all DNA fronts, it could open up all sorts of cans of worms for the pups - that's not mud-slinging, it's a fact  It's no secret that I support the breeding of recessive gene carriers when done correctly
> 
> ...


I agree with you Swarthy and you have given excellent advice to the OP all the way through this thread. Sometimes though, we have to accept that a person will go ahead regardless of the horrors they may face, because they cannot see the bigger picture (no matter how much people with good intentions try to sketch it for them).

If the OP does decide to register the puppies, then endorsements to prevent future progeny being registered is an absolute must in my opinion.

It doesn't sound as though they are going to be show quality, so if endorsements are placed, then hopefully they can just be loved pets.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Darth said:


> a MUCH higher percentage from BYB and PF - where often the dogs don't even look like the breed they are meant to be
> 
> I'm sorry but I don't agree with the sweeping statement above.
> 
> ...


I NEVER said people rehome their dog because of it's looks, please don't put words into my mouth - but it remains fact that many dogs produced by these two groups often don't look like the breeds they are meant to be - I live in the heart of puppy farming land with I suspect judging by our local press and signs at the roadside, also a much higher percentage of BYB than some areas 

Nearly every day we see dogs that owners think are pedigrees, when there is no way on this earth - it doesn't mean they love them any less even if they are frustrated at being conned (often for large sums of money)

The difference is - most good breeders will take pups back or assist with rehoming - plus they home their pups as responsibly as they can to start with.

In contrast - BYB and PF don't care who buys their pups, so long as someone does. As for assisting with rehoming - too many don't even know where the breeders live - how many are STILL bought out of the backs of vans on motorways from all the damn puppy farmers in Wales - still far too many despite many public advertisements telling people not to do it.

How many people STILL buy from dealers who ship in puppies from Wales - far too many.

Many of these dogs are not well socialised, some end up sick and because the buyers haven't been screened properly - people DO end up giving them up (many don't - I know people who will go to the ends of the earth for dogs they bought because at the time, they didn't know any better) - many of these owners are the BIGGEST possible advocates for responsible breeding because they don't want either people or dogs going through the same heartache they have.

I've seen more than one dog rehomed because the dog moulted, or because its colour no longer suits the new three piece suite 

ETA - I admire and love ANY dog that comes across my path regardless of what it looks like or what it's meant to be - it's not the dog's fault it was born


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Darth said:


> a MUCH higher percentage from BYB and PF - where often the dogs don't even look like the breed they are meant to be
> 
> I'm sorry but I don't agree with the sweeping statement above.
> 
> ...


I'm sure some do. I don't believe that reg or unreg makes a difference though. If a person is that shallow to rehome a pet because it's poorly bred, then I doubt a KC document would make a difference to them


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Don't you believe it - an insurance company recently refused to pay out for treatment on an eye condition until they saw the eye test results from the parents.
> 
> They did pay out because as required, the parents had the correct eye test paperwork in place at the time of the litter.
> 
> ...


Insurance is a different matter than legal recourse. If you try to claim on a hernia repair it will not be paid out on because it is a pre existing condition but it does not mean you can sue the breeder.

I must say that I was a little concerned when I claimed for Candy's cataract as that could be counted as a hereditary condition and not paid up on but the insurance company was fine with it - though the decision was not to operate they paid out for everything relating to it including a referral. And I notified the breeder for his own interest not because I was blaming him in any way.

Insurance companies will wriggle out of paying whatever they can and I think they do have a valid point on hereditary problems - but still does not make it something to sue the breeder over.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

Sadly people do put their pets in rescue simply because of it's looks - same with any animal - I got asked to re-home 2 giraffes and 3 zebras, I kid you not!, because the lady that owned them changed her garden furniture and it was no-longer africa themed so she wanted rid - I had to turn them down as I have no facilities for giraffes or zebras really for that matter!!! 
I know several people who have dogs simply because their friends do and they are an accessory, have come from top show breeders and were not cheap. However in a discussion the other day asking what would they do if they lost their jobs and were strapped for cash - they said the first thing that would go would be the dog - "it's only a dog afterall!" - I was quite shocked!!

And Darth - it isn't a sweeping statement, I wish it was, that more un-registered dogs end up in rescue than un-registered - it is true, you look at any rescue there are very few pedigree dogs, the sad fact is the more most people pay for a dog the less likely they are to give it up for free or to a rescue - just look at gumtree/preloved etc - what do you see lots of papered animals for sale with statements of 'paid £600 for it so a bargain at £200'! - there are lots and they don't give a rats arse where they end up. 
I agree with others un-registered pups breeders tend to not vet homes they are simply happy that the puppy has sold, they are commodities and nothing more!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Insurance is a different matter than legal recourse. If you try to claim on a hernia repair it will not be paid out on because it is a pre existing condition but it does not mean you can sue the breeder.
> 
> I must say that I was a little concerned when I claimed for Candy's cataract as that could be counted as a hereditary condition and not paid up on but the insurance company was fine with it - though the decision was not to operate they paid out for everything relating to it including a referral. And I notified the breeder for his own interest not because I was blaming him in any way.
> 
> Insurance companies will wriggle out of paying whatever they can and I think they do have a valid point on hereditary problems - but still does not make it something to sue the breeder over.


I appreciate insurance is different but there have been successful cases of breeders being sued by puppy buyers, albeit not many but I suspect they may be on the increase. You may not think it reasonable, but dogs/puppies are considered 'commodities' under the law and as such, anyone selling them needs to ensure they are fit for purpose. It is more difficult with living things, but even so, the breeder needs to ensure they have done all they can to produce healthy puppies. If they have done all they can and a health problem arises, then no problem, but if they have not then they could be sued.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Blitz said:


> Insurance is a different matter than legal recourse. If you try to claim on a hernia repair it will not be paid out on because it is a pre existing condition but it does not mean you can sue the breeder.
> 
> I must say that I was a little concerned when I claimed for Candy's cataract as that could be counted as a hereditary condition and not paid up on but the insurance company was fine with it - though the decision was not to operate they paid out for everything relating to it including a referral. And I notified the breeder for his own interest not because I was blaming him in any way.
> 
> Insurance companies will wriggle out of paying whatever they can and I think they do have a valid point on hereditary problems - but still does not make it something to sue the breeder over.


Many insurance companies require the customer to pay and claim it back.

Where direct claims are made, the customer is required to sign a disclaimer stating that if the insurance company don't pay, that they will have to.

Some people simply won't have the often few thousand (or more) required to pay for this - so, as per my earlier post - where next? particularly if a claim refusal states the reason the claim isn't being paid is because the parents weren't health-tested for that condition.

Notwithstanding a small margin of error, some conditions can now be prevented through DNA testing, others, we know there are no guarantees - but some insurance companies are already going back to check health-results - when has anyone ever come across an industry where other companies don't follow suit? not very often.

Pet insurance generates very little profit, hence why some have pulled out of the market and others have stopped offering lifetime condition cover.

I agree, hopefully no-one wants to see us become the same litigious society as across the pond - but if there is already a legal precedent and insurance companies do start to adopt similar policies...............................

Puppy buyers should act more responsibly (many already do - but there are also many that don't) - I started a thread on the very subject some time ago.

I'm not saying I have the answers - I don't - and this thread has gone way OT 

In the simplest terms, the OP has been given the facts and the options, I've said I will endeavour to get the information for them if they wish to go down the KC registration route, and I will, irrespective of my own views.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

I don't - and this thread has gone way OT 

It was way over the top to start. 

No way are inexperienced breeders who know so little to let their bitches be mated by two dogs because the stud owner says they are the same colour and temperament going to understand or undertake DNA tests.

They need realistic advise.

The OP has obviously been scared off with the advice given re DNA tests etc.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> No way are inexperienced breeders who know so little to let their bitches be mated by two dogs because the stud owner says they are the same colour and temperament going to understand or undertake DNA tests


Really? Is that your opinion or fact? I take it you haven't read this posted by the OP then 



> *How shall i deal with the dna issue?. Apart from some comments i am taking this serious if i wasn't i would not have posted on here.*





> They need realistic advise.
> 
> The OP has obviously been scared off with the advice given re DNA tests etc.


They've been given realistic and *responsible* advice. If you think they should have different advice then post it but having a go at others because they see things differently is of no benefit to the OP.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> Really? Is that your opinion or fact? I take it you haven't read this posted by the OP then
> 
> They've been given realistic and *responsible* advice. If you think they should have different advice then post it but* having a go at others because they see things differently is of no benefit to the OP*.


People repeatedly telling the OP to get the mismate jabs is hardly helpful, when anyone with any savvy could tell from the get go that the OP has absolutely no intention of mismating the bitch. This litter will go ahead regardless of any advice, no matter how helpful, on this thread.

It's the same with the dna testing. It's not going to happen. We have to be realistic.

I think the only advice that MAY be taken on board is what to do with the pups once they are here; whether to register, not to register, whether to endorse re progeny, etc.

To be honest, I don't see the OP returning. I hope I am wrong.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I feel the owner of the stud dog is to blame here. The OP seems to have put her trust in the wrong person ............... she hasn't done anything evil in my opinion.

It is some years since I had PRT stud dogs, but there used to be what we called then 'The Green Form', (I know there will be an official name for it), but it has to be signed by the owner of the stud dog to prove that a mating to the named dog has taken place in his presence.

A Pedigree alone is not enough.

If I were you, I wouldn't even try and register these pups. I would sell them for pets, chalk it up to experience and if, in the future, you decide to try again, buy a copy of Dog World or Our Dogs, look for who writes the breed notes and contact them for advice on dogs standing who may be suitable for your bitch.

It is rather odd that the owner of the stud dog felt his dog was 'tired' and unable to mate your bitch a second time. Healthy males could mate more than once in a day normally.

I would always assume that your bitch will hold to the first mating and have everything ready a week before her due date. You could talk to your vet about having her scanned at the appropriate time to confirm her pregnancy.

Good Luck to you.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sweety said:


> I feel the owner of the stud dog is to blame here. The OP seems to have put her trust in the wrong person ............... she hasn't done anything evil in my opinion.


I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that - but knowing what they now know - if they KC register the litter with the details of the first sire without DNA testing, they are also at fault.



Sweety said:


> It is some years since I had PRT stud dogs, but there used to be what we called then 'The Green Form', (I know there will be an official name for it), but it has to be signed by the owner of the stud dog to prove that a mating to the named dog has taken place in his presence.


the "Green Form" is still used; despite being able to register litters online, the KC still require the form to be completed and signed by the stud owner and retained by the bitch owner in the event of any query arising.

From what we can glean from the OP, this form has not been issued for either dog.

When litters are registered online, the KC also write to the stud dog owner along the lines of registering the named stud dog as the sire if they don't hear back from them within (I believe) 'x' number of days.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

They've been given realistic and responsible advice. If you think they should have different advice then post it but having a go at others because they see things differently is of no benefit to the OP.

You obviously haven't read my previous posts as my advice has been given. And I'm not having a go at anyone, I have a different opinion and have voiced it.

Recommending DNA testing in this situation just isn't realistic! There's no surprise the OP hasn't been back.....I imagine she's been scared off.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Recommending DNA testing in this situation just isn't realistic!


Have you read the posts? The OP ASKED for advice regarding DNA. Of course, they may well not take it, in which case, they would be complicit in the fraud.


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## lola belle (Mar 17, 2011)

DARTH, has posted the most sensible and well balanced comments.....some are very harsh and unhelpful really. Starshine may have been too trusting in the stud dog owner, not realising the consequences, but how many of us on here are perfect!!!!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

lola belle said:


> DARTH, has posted the most sensible and well balanced comments.....some are very harsh and unhelpful really. Starshine may have been too trusting in the stud dog owner, not realising the consequences, but how many of us on here are perfect!!!!


And if you *read* all the posts - you will SEE that very *many* of us have agreed that the stud owner is predominantly at fault in this situation - NOT just Darth  and long before they came into the thread

The issue of the requirement for DNA testing was highlighted to the OP who has ASKED for more information, and I have stated I will do my best to obtain it - I understand the requirements in theory, but have no experience "in practice".

The point at which the OP becomes complicit in all this is if and when they register the litter under a single sire without DNA testing.

There are also shared concerns that this is unlikely to be an isolated incident and that is more concerning - how many dogs out there have been registered with the wrong sire? If the dog has been "worn out" once - then he will undoubtedly have been "worn out" previously - I can think of a number of reasons why a stud dog owner would do this, and sadly, none of them are positive 

In fact, it might even possibly be quite clever "marketing" on their part had the situation never come to light  Those who understand the complexities of breeding and how stud dogs produce might understand how my mind is working - but again, it's not positive and it's WRONG.

I feel sorry for the OP and have said I will try to help, and I will

I have raised the questions and points about health-testing because they are also important.


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## lola belle (Mar 17, 2011)

The Kennel Club have information on DNA profiling.......


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> Have you read the posts? The OP ASKED for advice regarding DNA. Of course, they may well not take it, in which case, they would be complicit in the fraud.


Errrr yes I have read the whole thread and have read into it too. Do we think the stud owner is going to hand over 2 green forms to the OP when he has behaved so irresponsibly and hasnt handed over 1 green form, just a pedigree of the first stud used............ I really dont think so. Do we really think he will comply with supplying dna samples from both studs..........again......dont think so. I am just trying go be realistic. Hence leading the OP to not register puppies.

The OP has asked about dna but also clearly has it in her mind that the first stud used is the sire to this litter. If dna testing were to be carried carried out then problem solved. I dont think it will happen.

I always read posts carefully before replying and dont waste my time in parrotting advice that has already been given and clearly not an option (such as the mismate option). Darth has given, in my opinion, constructive advice.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

All this thread proves to me is that
(a) people should not breed without doing the research
and 
(b) people shouldn`t breed without doing the research. 

How frogging hard is it to read a book / talk to a breeder, read up online? 
You would do research when buying a Tele so why not before risking your pet?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

chichi said:


> Errrr yes I have read the whole thread and have read into it too.





> but until we know different, we have to go by what we are told


So it's OK for you to read into it but everyone else has to go by what we are told LOL



> Do we think the stud owner is going to hand over 2 green forms to the OP when he has behaved so irresponsibly and hasnt handed over 1 green form, just a pedigree of the first stud used............ I really dont think so.


Probably not, but he/she may be prepared to do so using the excuse of an 'accident' rather than being reported to the KC.



> Do we really think he will comply with supplying dna samples from both studs..........again......dont think so. I am just trying go be realistic. Hence leading the OP to not register puppies.


As above.



> The OP has asked about dna but also clearly has it in her mind that the first stud used is the sire to this litter.


Where does she say this?



> If dna testing were to be carried carried out then problem solved. I dont think it will happen.


There are a number of outcomes/choices that the OP has to make. A mismate (already rejected this), registers the pups using the first sire (quite possible - they have already emailed the stud owner who may well persuade them to go ahead with it and ignore a pet forum!), registers the litter using dna (possible given their post, but the cost may well put them off particularly as this is obviously a pet litter) and leave them unregistered.

Any one of those could be the outcome, however, it is only correct that the OP is firmly advised that KC registering the litter without dna testing will make her complicit in the fraud.


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

You are relying on people who don't know or don't care where they get their puppy from. People are wising up to things with how to find a puppy. What type is your girl, if you don't know have a look at her pedigree and if there are sh ch that means she's probably a show type, if there are ft ch that means she's probably a working type.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

OMG it sounds like you really have been conned, can he be reported to KC? it sounds like your bitch is going through a pregnancy with a litter that you may not be able to sell, feel so worried for bitch and the pups


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> i asked one question & explained my situation expecting help/advice yet i have been judged, told of, said im commiting fraud, all the pups will go into rescue centres, that my situation is so of the wall it's untrue? etc It does not say much for this particular forum if You ask for help & feel the guilty party. These forums are supposed to help not chase people away. If people don't ask for help/advice how will they learn. Yes i have done my research but even then with all the research You can still be taken advantage of.
> Yes i asked the stud dog owner for a receipt He said use certificate, i have asked about dna He has not got back to me. As someone said as He won't even give me a receipt He won't agree to dna test. Yes He did say the first Sire who i have the certificate for will be the Father,the other dog was just a back up.
> Not all dogs have health tests & even if they do does not mean they will stay healthy. You can't even always trust vets as they might just say things for the money. i do not want to fall out with the stud dog owner as i might need Him later if there are problems with puppies birth & registering.


Please don't be put off. I think you were very sensible coming here for advice and you have received good advice, especially from Swarthy. The trouble is that once a topic like this gets going, it also gets heated and people lose track of the original poster and the original question.

Neither the stud owner nor anyone else can say which dog will be the father. Even human women have been known to have twins by two different fathers, and they wouldn't know either until they were born. I feel that this stud owner is not as knowledgeable as he has made himself out to be, or he would know that the colouring of the dog is irrelevant.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> *So it's OK for you to read into it but everyone else has to go by what we are told LOL*
> 
> Probably not, but he/she may be prepared to do so using the excuse of an 'accident' rather than being reported to the KC.
> 
> ...


I don't think I said that everyone else has to do what they are told (dont see why the use of LOL but you laugh out loud if you like). Try not putting words into other members mouths, to back up your argument. What I have said is that if members repeatedly insist on mismate and dna testing, the OP may feel that she is not getting the help she came here for and may stop posting. It doesn't sound like she's overly impressed with some comments. Too many people judge rather quickly imo!

OPs comment in latest post from her:

Yes He did say the first Sire who i have the certificate for will be the Father,the other dog was just a back up. 

Whether she is going to rely upon that who knows.

The fact that the stud owner hasn't even answered her communication rather says it all for me. You don't have to be Mystic Meg to work out how this stud owner works and I just try to be realistic in the chances of him going down the dna route. For all we know, the second dog may not even be registered and even the dna samples may not be from the dogs he says they are from. Sorry, I may be a doubter here but somebody who would mislead somebody as this person has, I wouldn't trust an inch!

As for the OP knowing about fraud implications; it has been spelled out to her in no uncertain terms. Again, don't see the point of reiterating information to the point of chanting. I get the impression she is very literate, just a little naive in dealing with people such as this stud owner. I don't think we need to keep chanting "mismate" "fraud" etc., but hey, if you think that will help, go ahead:001_huh:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

starshine said:


> i asked one question & explained my situation expecting help/advice yet i have been judged, told of, said im commiting fraud, all the pups will go into rescue centres, that my situation is so of the wall it's untrue? etc It does not say much for this particular forum if You ask for help & feel the guilty party. These forums are supposed to help not chase people away. If people don't ask for help/advice how will they learn. Yes i have done my research but even then with all the research You can still be taken advantage of.
> Yes i asked the stud dog owner for a receipt He said use certificate, i have asked about dna He has not got back to me. As someone said as He won't even give me a receipt He won't agree to dna test. Yes He did say the first Sire who i have the certificate for will be the Father,the other dog was just a back up.
> Not all dogs have health tests & even if they do does not mean they will stay healthy. You can't even always trust vets as they might just say things for the money. i do not want to fall out with the stud dog owner as i might need Him later if there are problems with puppies birth & registering.


I hope that anything I have said hasn't upset you at all. I just try to be realistic and IN MY OPINION this stud owner is not going to assist with DNA (hope I'm wrong) and clearly you are not happy to mismate (that is your choice and yours alone) so was wanting to steer you to the route of not registering or if you decide to register (though that would be regarded as dishonest) without dna testing, you should endorse the puppies so that their progeny could not be registered in the future. Again, that is just my OPINION.

I am glad you came back:thumbup1:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> What i don't understand is the people who aren't even into breeding judging me. Anyway.Someone said something about breeders registering more bitches than there really are? does this mean eg 2 real bitches who are mated twice a year (which is wrong as they are only supposed to be mated once a year for health reasons) 2 lots of the pups are registered in the real bitches names then the other 2 litters registered in the false 2 bitches names.?
> What was that about a springer spaniel being microchipped a cocker spaniel? i thought a micro chip was a number & the person's name & address on which can be updated.?


Yes, I'm afraid that is the sort of thing some unscrupulous scumbags will do. I don't know about the microchip thing, but possibly it has the breed information as well? Nobody knows for certain that the pedigree they are given belongs to that puppy that they are buying; that would have to be a question for dna tests. A lot of puppy buying is about trust and unfortunately some people abuse that trust.

It is possible with your stud owner that he is ignorant of the facts himself or it is far more likely that one of the stud dogs used has no health tests and no paperwork. Unfortunately, you have been put into the position of falling out with him if he will not co-operate. If he is genuine, he has no reason not to, so let's hope all goes well.

You must be feeling extremely disappointed with all this, I know I would be.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

starshine said:


> i asked one question & explained my situation expecting help/advice yet i have been judged, told of, said im commiting fraud, all the pups will go into rescue centres, that my situation is so of the wall it's untrue? etc It does not say much for this particular forum if You ask for help & feel the guilty party. These forums are supposed to help not chase people away. If people don't ask for help/advice how will they learn. Yes i have done my research but even then with all the research You can still be taken advantage of.
> Yes i asked the stud dog owner for a receipt He said use certificate, i have asked about dna He has not got back to me. As someone said as He won't even give me a receipt He won't agree to dna test. Yes He did say the first Sire who i have the certificate for will be the Father,the other dog was just a back up.
> Not all dogs have health tests & even if they do does not mean they will stay healthy. You can't even always trust vets as they might just say things for the money. i do not want to fall out with the stud dog owner as i might need Him later if there are problems with puppies birth & registering.


I don't think anyone has accused you of committing fraud, just saying that IF you were to go ahead and register the litter using the first stud dog as the father (as the stud owner is telling you to do) you would be committing fraud.

You do seem to have gone into this without really understanding about breeding and unfortunately, have been taken advantage of by an unscrupulous stud owner.

As you have dismissed the idea of a mismate, which, IMO would be the best option - then you could find a reputable stud dog owner for a litter in the future, then you have a number of options that have already been given.

As it sounds like you are going ahead with the litter *and* want to register them then this is what I would do (for what it's worth).

Firstly, get on the Kennel Club website and download the forms for registering a litter. Read through and take note of what it says. Also, research where you can do the DNA tests. I'm pretty sure AHT offer a dna parentage test, but there will be others too. When the litter arrives, contact the stud owner and explain that you reuuire the signed forms (even if you register the litter online) and due to two sires being used the puppies need to be dna tested to ascertain the respective sire and it will require both studs to be dna tested. As unfair as this seems, you may need to offer to pay for these. If he refuses and tells you to register them under the first sire, then I would tell him that you will be reporting the matter to the KC. This may push him to allow his studs to be dna tested, or he may not care anyway and refuse to dna test his stud dogs regardless. If this is the case, then I would definately report him and unfortunately, you will then be left with two options. Register the pups using the first sire - which IS fraudulent, or not register them.

Have both stud dogs been health tested?

If you do not go ahead with DNA testing and registering then you will be unable to give new owners a pedigree although if both stud dogs were health tested (all the same tests) then you will at least be able to reassure the new owners that the parents were health tested even if you cannot say who the sire is.

Do you have puppy buyers lined up yet.



> as i might need Him later if there are problems with puppies birth


Do you not have anyone else who will help you with this? or have you been relying solely on the stud owner for advice/help? If you don't have anyone else, then I would advise you to find someone quickly.


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

starshine said:


> i have looked at both my bitches pedigree certificate it does not say anywhere if there is sh ch or ft ch. Where do i find these things?


If you look at the start of the dogs names you may see one like sh ch My Little Magic Man, they may also have JW at the end of the name. There may be words that are repeated at the start of some of the names, searching these on the Internet can bring up clues as to what type they are.


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

The thing about the coker/springer microchipped etc was just to proove there are unscrupulous breeders out there who will register any dog anyhitn gif ther eis money to purchase it. It has happened and through no mix up as the dogs were 100% identifiable.

ANyhow, it was nothign inparticular on this thread


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> but if both dogs are kennel registered i could still register the pups couldn't i?


Only if you know the which sire sired each pup and to do that you need to dna test the litter.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Unfortunately, this stud dog owner has made everything very complicated indeed by using the second dog on your bitch.

Had he just used the one, it would now only be a matter of getting the relevant paperwork from him and then registering your pups when they are born.

However, in your present situation, one of two dogs could be the Father, or each dog could be the Father of some of your pups.

If the stud dog owner refuses to provide DNA tests for his dogs, you either have to go down the road of reporting him to the Kennel Club, and even then, he could deny having used the second dog and it would simply be his word against yours.

Your second choice, as previously said, is to leave the litter unregistered.

To answer your other question, if you sell a pup and do not want it to be bred from, when you register the pup, you can put an Endorsement on the registration, saying Progeny not to be Registered. 

Secondly, no, you cannot be responsible for puppies you breed for life. Once they leave you, they become the responsibility of the new owner.

What I used to do was give each new owner all of my details, phone numbers, etc., and tell them if they had any concerns, problems or just needed a chat, to contact me anytime. I also used to stress to them that if, for any reason, they could not keep the pup, they should not pass it on, but bring it back to me.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

He works his dogs? Doubt he's working show type Cockers? Which makes me think you've used two working dogs as studs possibly?

Is your girl a show cocker or a working cocker? Both completely different things needing different types of homes.

Have you put the studs details in to the kennel club site to see what you can find out?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Next time We will use a reputable stud dog owner. Don't think stud dog owner will do dna test as He uses dogs as working dogs & has He already misled me. i have printed out litter registration form from kennel club. With last bitch We tried to breed from a reputable stud dog owner they didn't give us the green form only a receipt. Could i get the pups health tested?
> No We don't have puppy buyers lined up (never sure about that what if she doesn't have pups. Our other bitch did a tie showed all the symptons of being pregnant but it was a phantom pregnancy. )
> If the stud dog owner had not used the other dog i would not even be in this situation & it might be that what the stud dog owner says is true that she is pregnant by the 1st dog & not the 2nd. No don't have anyone only books & internet.


If this is the case then NO, you won't be able to register the puppies, and if you did you would be committing fraud.

Why would you get the pups health tested? You won't be able to get them done before they go to their new homes. DNA tests can be done but would depend on breed requirements - What tests do cocker spaniels require?



> & it might be that what the stud dog owner says is true that she is pregnant by the 1st dog & not the 2nd.


No, I wouldn't trust anything the stud dog owner says unfortunately.
If that was the case there would have been no need for the second mating.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> i don't know if my bitch is a working or show the ad said show but the stud dog owner says she looks like a worker & as i explained it doesn't say on the pedigree certificate. How can i tell for sure which one she is?
> Yes i have looked up the 1st dogs details as i don't have kennel club name of 2nd dog. His parents have clear eye tests.


Show cockers look completely different to working ones. The show ones are the ones with the long floppy ears. If you google both, you should be able to find photos.


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

They are working cockers. These puppies probably won't be suitable for your average pet home, you will need to advertise them saying active homes as they won't be right for most people. Please search the difference between working and show type Cockers .


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

starshine said:


> i asked one question & explained my situation expecting help/advice yet i have been judged, told of, said im commiting fraud, all the pups will go into rescue centres, that my situation is so of the wall it's untrue? etc It does not say much for this particular forum if You ask for help & feel the guilty party. These forums are supposed to help not chase people away. If people don't ask for help/advice how will they learn. Yes i have done my research but even then with all the research You can still be taken advantage of.
> Yes i asked the stud dog owner for a receipt He said use certificate, i have asked about dna He has not got back to me. As someone said as He won't even give me a receipt He won't agree to dna test. Yes He did say the first Sire who i have the certificate for will be the Father,the other dog was just a back up.
> Not all dogs have health tests & even if they do does not mean they will stay healthy. You can't even always trust vets as they might just say things for the money. i do not want to fall out with the stud dog owner as i might need Him later if there are problems with puppies birth & registering.





starshine said:


> What i don't understand is the people who aren't even into breeding judging me. Anyway.Someone said something about breeders registering more bitches than there really are? does this mean eg 2 real bitches who are mated twice a year (which is wrong as they are only supposed to be mated once a year for health reasons) 2 lots of the pups are registered in the real bitches names then the other 2 litters registered in the false 2 bitches names.?
> What was that about a springer spaniel being microchipped a cocker spaniel? i thought a micro chip was a number & the person's name & address on which can be updated.?


Because others do things doesn't make it OK to do it as well.

It was only made clear that now you are aware of the full situation, if you register the litter without DNA testing, THEN you *will* be acting fraudulently. (the stud dog however, the intention was clear)

As for health-testing - because it doesn't offer a guarantee is no reason not to use the schemes which SIGNIFICANTLY reduce risk and in some instances DO remove it.

By not PRA testing, you are potentially producing pups that could go blind at a young age

By not FN testing, you are potentially producing pups that could die from Kidney failure - possibly before they are even 12 months old.

That's not scaremongering or throwing false accusations, that is very simply FACT - all for the sake of two simple blood tests (or even possibly mouth swabs) which could stop your puppies dying or going blind.

Hipscoring the parents and breeding dogs with reasonable scores can save dogs from a life of pain, their owners from heartache and financial hardship and ensure that you sleep comfortably in your bed at night knowing you have done your utmost to ensure you produce healthy pups.

-----------------------------

The problem is - this "same old" story is played out on the forums time and again - people are too long in the tooth.

With all due respect, most people have fully recognised that the stud dog owners has taken advantage of you and it has been said pretty much time and again on nearly every page of this thread.

Yes, you can be caught out if you do research - BUT

Just ONE simple Google search before starting out would have told you exactly what health-tests were needed for this breed.

A call to the breed club would have told you how to go about getting them done and how to find a responsible stud dog owner.

Then, you would have known exactly what you had at your fingertips and exactly what to ask the stud dog owner for BEFORE going to the stud.

All the above is not even a massive amount of research - probably 15 minutes online and speaking to the breed club would have given you everything breed specific you needed to know.

In less than a month, all the health-tests could have been done and the results back with you - and for all that - you would have to do about 5 minutes reading - a minuscule proportion of the time it has taken to start this thread, others to reply and you to read all the replies.

THAT is why people get frustrated time and again - sadly, increasingly we also see people posting the most horrendous breeding scenarios for fun - simply because the forum has a lot of passionate members who do actually care that dogs are bred responsibly and ethically 

=======================

ETA - a link on FN in Cockers

_"The renal disease caused by FN invariably is progressive and ultimately fatal"_

http://www.ecsca.org/fnlees05.html


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

starshine said:


> i asked one question & explained my situation expecting help/advice yet i have been judged, told of, said im commiting fraud, all the pups will go into rescue centres, that my situation is so of the wall it's untrue? etc It does not say much for this particular forum if You ask for help & feel the guilty party. These forums are supposed to help not chase people away. If people don't ask for help/advice how will they learn. Yes i have done my research but even then with all the research You can still be taken advantage of.
> Yes i asked the stud dog owner for a receipt He said use certificate, i have asked about dna He has not got back to me. As someone said as He won't even give me a receipt He won't agree to dna test. Yes He did say the first Sire who i have the certificate for will be the Father,the other dog was just a back up.
> Not all dogs have health tests & even if they do does not mean they will stay healthy. You can't even always trust vets as they might just say things for the money. i do not want to fall out with the stud dog owner as i might need Him later if there are problems with puppies birth & registering.





starshine said:


> i don't know if my bitch is a working or show the ad said show but the stud dog owner says she looks like a worker & as i explained it doesn't say on the pedigree certificate. How can i tell for sure which one she is?
> Yes i have looked up the 1st dogs details as i don't have kennel club name of 2nd dog. His parents have clear eye tests.


Whilst I do agree the stud dog owner took advantage of your naivety I do wonder what "research" you actually did. You said you've done lots of research before this mating but TBH you don't even know your own dogs pedigree and whether she's of working or show lines?! I have a lab and the differences between show and working lines are very definite, I don't ever intend to breed but I can spot the difference, surely if you intend to be a breeder you should be able to spot the difference a mile off within your chosen breed??!

You asked for advice and you were given it; mis-mate then do about a million times more research than you already have, get her health TESTS done and start over. If you insist on proceeding with this litter then I advise you don't register them and put contracts on them all stating they should be neutered and can not be bred from as there is no way of knowing their lineages without doing the DNA tests which you would need samples from both studs to do and it doesn't seem like you will ever get these samples.

TBH all your posts scream BYB to me and I'm left wondering if the only research you did was the going rate for a cocker pup! Sorry if that seems harsh but you don't seem to be taking any of the advice on board from the more knowledgable breeders on here.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

I think we can all deduce from the previous posts on this thread the bitch wasn't health tested, the stud dog owner took advantage and the options open to the OP.

Surely we can do without the posts that are going over and over the same thing.

We can also do without the lectures, we all know some of you love showing your superior knowledge especially in threads like this......just sometimes it gets boring!


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

ok so this has now started on another forum - the advice will be the same or perhaps more blunt... it doesn't matter where you ask about this, the advice wont change... please start listening to people who are trying to help.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

As others have said Starshine, There is absolutely no way of knowing which of the two studs used is sire to the pups and in no way can you take it that only the first dog that tied is sire to all of the pups. It could be one dog, or the other, or the puppies could be a mixed litter of both sires used.

With regard endorsements. At time of registering the litter, you get the option of placing endorsements. Placing the ........ progeny cannot be registered......... endorsement on all puppies' papers would ensure that this Stud Owners actions with your bitch go no further than your own litter. It doesn't stop the pups owners from breeding their pups but it does prevent them from registering litters from your bitch's pups with the Kennel Club. This should also be backed up with a Contract signed by the new owner to state they understand the endorsement. Without this, the pups owners could apply to the Kennel Club to have the endorsement lifted, stating that they didnt know the endorsement was present or didnt understand it. The Kennel Club could find in their favour and lift the endorsement, allowing for future pups to be registered, if you have no proof that you explained the endorsement and the owner was in acceptance.

All I can say is that if I was in your position (didn't want to mismate the bitch and couldn't get anywhere with dna testing to determine the sire to each pup in the litter) I think I would not register the puppies and sell them without papers and on contract that they will not be used for breeding. 

As to whether pups of your breed are likely to sell without papers/health test results, etc., I really cannot comment but something you should get advice on. 

With regard breeder responsibility...........a good breeder will always try to make sure there is a means of communication open. A good breeder will also do all they can to take the puppy back or arrange for an alternative home if necessary.

I don't think you can rely on the stud owner for help when your bitch is whelping. You should ask around and try to make contact with a local experienced breeder that can be on hand, if needed. Whilst many bitches whelp without incident, there can also be times when experience is needed and not all Vets are as knowledgeable in breeding as some think.

You have a lot of decisions to make. I don't envy you that but at least you are getting information to consider which might help you decide which way to go


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

PennyGC said:


> ok so this has now started on another forum - the advice will be the same or perhaps more blunt... it doesn't matter where you ask about this, the advice wont change... please start listening to people who are trying to help.


Ouch - I hope it's not a breed specific forum - this place is quite tame compared to some of them 

ETA - just found it - oooooops


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

swarthy said:


> Ouch - I hope it's not a breed specific forum - this place is quite tame compared to some of them


No it's not, and the OP hasn't mentioned the breed (I've raised it) - BUT it's certainly a place which doesn't pull any punches... it is usually much tougher than here hmy:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

PennyGC said:


> No it's not, and the OP hasn't mentioned the breed (I've raised it) - BUT it's certainly a place which doesn't pull any punches... it is usually much tougher than here hmy:


Yes - I've found it  did they expect to get different answers


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

They must have thought so, but really that just shows some of the problem here :-(


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

PennyGC said:


> They must have thought so, but really that just shows some of the problem here :-(


Yes  I think just about every possible option has been spelt out to them from an urgent mismate to how they go about registering the litter and every single thing inbetween.

I really don't think there are any options that haven't been explored - it's covered pretty much everything.

I sadly suspect I know where this is going to go now


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

pearltheplank said:


> Why would you do that!!!!!


I can't answer for the OP but in general

It allows for the female to have less litters and retire earlier. Still breeding from a few sires.

If you do a dual sire breeding 2-3 breedings can be reduced to 1-2 but still 2-3 sires.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

SpicyBulldog said:


> I can't answer for the OP but in general
> 
> It allows for the female to have less litters and retire earlier. Still breeding from a few sires.
> 
> If you do a dual sire breeding 2-3 breedings can be reduced to 1-2 but still 2-3 sires.


I know it is practiced in some breeds, although no idea as to at what level - but in this instance, it seems that the stud dog has made the decision to introduce a second dog, and then given the OP the paperwork just for the first dog


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

You could advertise that parents are kc reg but pups will not be registered.


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## pixieloulou1982 (Jan 28, 2012)

Hmmmmm.

I have no advice for you other than, rather than worrying about KC registering, focus on the health of the mother and potential pups right now. Can I ask why you have chosen to breed? I honestly feel you should have done allot more research. Did you know the stud owner before? Had you heard good reviews? Did you ask for documentation of both males and their lines? 

I may be a bit harsh..but I am not a breeder and am a firm advocate of spaying and neutering unless you are a very experienced breeder with knowledge of the breed and the lines and such.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

starshine said:


> swarthy where do You think this is going?
> the advice i have been given is to have a mis match which i am not doing. to have a dna test, the stud dog owner won't do that. health tests i was told by other stud dog owner we used for other bitch that he had health tests but when i looked up his health on kc his parents hadnt been health checked. Also been told by others that even if health tested does not mean the dog will stay like that & that eye tests only last 12 months.
> Even if i have bitch dna & health tested what about the dog?
> i am even more worried now that other people on other forum will report me to kennel club if i decide to register pups. (Which i have not decided on yet).
> ...


You cannot register these pups without DNA testing - if the stud owner won't allow you to test the dogs, then you can't register them.

If you DNA test your bitch for PRA and FN and she is clear for both conditions, you know that regardless of the status of both sires, the pups can never be affected for either of these conditions.

If she comes back as a carrier or affected for either condition (I don't know much about it, but probably unlikely to be affected for FN I would think) - and neither stud dogs has been tested, you have a problem.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> swarthy where do You think this is going?
> the advice i have been given is to have a mis match which i am not doing. to have a dna test, the stud dog owner won't do that. health tests i was told by other stud dog owner we used for other bitch that he had health tests but when i looked up his health on kc his parents hadnt been health checked. Also been told by others that even if health tested does not mean the dog will stay like that & that eye tests only last 12 months.
> Even if i have bitch dna & health tested what about the dog?
> i am even more worried now that other people on other forum will report me to kennel club if i decide to register pups. (Which i have not decided on yet).
> ...


I feel for you, I really do. I don't think this situation was any of your doing but you are in it nonetheless and without the assistance of the stud owner you have no real way out. You do need to have your own bitch tested for what Swarthy said, then at least you will know that the pups are not going to be affected if she is clear. But you are left with two options after that as far as I can see - sell the puppies as unregistered, or find homes for them among your family and friends.

I would feel the same as you about the mismate jab, but then I am not a breeder and this sort of shambles is one of the reasons I wouldn't think of breeding.

Have you heard back from the stud owner yet?


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

You shouldn't register them at all, how do you know the sires are even KC registered? - if the breeder was that dishonest in the first place they could have been any old dogs he used that looked vaguely like a cocker, they could even be related to yours - you have no way of knowing, especially since you haven't done any research on your breed or breeding!!!
I would advertise them as mutts with an unknown sire to put off those who are looking to buy a cheap cocker to then use their pet as a cash machine to make more puppies, sell them at a price which reflects this.

Surely the last dog you mated and then found out had no health tests was a learning experience? - you've made the same mistake twice, surely that would be the first thing you'd have on your check list this time??! I can understand a first time breeder being this niave but this is your second time so no excuse really.

Health tests need to be done on the dog AND bitch to reduce the chances of puppies inheriting any bad health issues - it does not illiminate the chance but it makes it very small - hence why people do it, it is the RESPONSIBLE thing to do when breeding, and yes it is expensive!! And once done you then spend ages LOOKING for a stud dog that compliments your dogs conformation/colour/temperament and bloodlines as well as having all the relavent health tests with certificates which you ask to see BEFORE you mate your dog, not just using the nearest/cheapest stud dog of a pretty colour with a KC regsitration to produce pedigree puppies to sell at a high price!!!!

And yes the eye tests last only a year - even with people you get your eyes done yearly to then see the degeneration, and yes that means costing more money surprise surprise - breeding is NOT cheap, but those tests will help keep you in the clear if anyone comes back at you in the future with a sick puppy, as people keep telling you over and over - the answers are never going to change how ever much you ignore them!!!

I would not explain your situation to buyers as if they have an ounce of common sense they will run a mile - what else has been messed up on is what they will think! I would just sell as crossbred cockers, and no you will not make any money from them, you won't even cover your costs - that is what happens when you breed!
You also haven't yet given a sensible reason as to why you don't want to use the mismate jab, it is of no more issue physically for your dog than getting a vaccination - the puppies don't even exist yet - the jab stops them existing, dogs have no emotional attachment to something which they have no idea about, it is only humans that think like this, and if you are using the whole 'it's like an abortion thing' as an excuse, think about the risk you are putting your bitch under - is her life worth less than a few balls of cells? Or are you more worried about making a few pounds to cover the stud fee you lost?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

starshine said:


> i am even more worried now that other people on other forum will report me to kennel club if i decide to register pups. (Which i have not decided on yet). .


So you are actually still considering whether to register them fraudulently 



> What if i register the pups with kennel club under 1st dogs name but explain to buyers what happened & even show them the pics of the ties with the 2 different dogs & let them decide. Or not register them but say in pups advert sire kc registered but unknown.


Then you are committing a fraud which may or may not be found out, but personally, I find despicable and not the action of a dog lover, but someone more interested in making money out of their pups.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Saw stud dog owner info in free ads paper. We had traveled quite far so it was a case of mating first before paper work.




I did have some sympathy for you being conned by the stud dog owner, but tbh, you gone into breeding your dog without having a clue 

Edited to add: correction - you are nothing more than a byb out to make money out of your poor bitches. And worse, one that is still considering fraudulently registering a litter of pups when you now know that is fraudulent.

All this information is readily available and the responsibility is YOURS. Nothing that has been said here has displayed any kind of responsible breeding on your part, so it is not surprising that you have been taken for a ride by an unscrupulous stud dog owner. Not only that, but you say this is not your first litter.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

Just gets worse and worse - so you health tested your other dog, so were fully aware of doing it and why otherwise you would not of had the last one done, but you didn't bother with this one? - why? 
And you own a KC registered dog but didn't want to bother with KC registering when you decided to mate your bitch, so money IS the only reason you are breeding?? - poor poor dog!!:cursing:
And why would you force two dogs to mate - please get your dog neutered as you really have absolutly no clue about animals let alone breeding them!!


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## pixieloulou1982 (Jan 28, 2012)

But why do you want to breed them? I am sorry for your mother having had cancer, but grief and loss should never be used as justification for breeding or any huge decision. Which breeding is. 

Honestly? Get your animals spayed. If you can not financially afford this you can seek aid from animal charities.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Sorry but I am disgusted. 

Not only was the stud owner completely idiotic but you are continuing to behave like he did. If you register them under stud dog 1 and they are actually stud dog 2 you are doing so fraudulently and anyone who gets one of your pups will risk accidentally breeding it with a relative or even with its own dad! 

Do the right thing and spend the money DNA testing them.


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## pixieloulou1982 (Jan 28, 2012)

starshine said:


> the other stud dog owner said my bitch had to have a clear eye cert before mating with her dog (this is what i mean by health tested) also when bitches have annual booster the vet says they are healthy & does not mention a health test. i don't own a kc dog only 2 kc bitches. i didnt force the 2 dogs to mate the other stud owner did that. Again i trusted the stud owner. i will not be doing that again.


So you did not get your dog health tested? Just an eye exam and boosters. Please....please stop with the desire to breed. Stop. Now. Spay your dog. Care for you dog. It is the mature and respectable thing to do. Some people and dogs are not suitable to be breeders.


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## pixieloulou1982 (Jan 28, 2012)

starshine said:


> Thankyou for Your kind comment. i want another puppy & the joy of looking after pups again. the other bitch is 6 who has had phantom pregnancies has no more seasons well haven't seen any bleeding. Don't want to spay the other one yet.


Then go to your local animal shelter and rescue a puppy. Don't bring more pups into a world where we are over run with abandoned and unwanted dogs. Why don't you want to spay the other?


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2012)

OP you need to take some responsibility for the mess you`ve created , cut your losses and get the mismate job done , end of.
and BEFORE you`re bitch is due another season again if your still intent on taking a litter from her spend that time researching pedigree`s , suitable studs etc buy `the book of the bitch by kay white and j.m evans` read it back to front and cover to cover over and over again.
if the stud dog owner told you to jump off a cliff , would you take that advice???


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> the other stud dog owner said my bitch had to have a clear eye cert before mating with her dog (this is what i mean by health tested) also when bitches have annual booster the vet says they are healthy & does not mention a health test. i don't own a kc dog only 2 kc bitches. i didnt force the 2 dogs to mate the other stud owner did that. Again i trusted the stud owner. i will not be doing that again.


A vet is not going to talk about health tests for breeding unless you ask him and even then he might not have the information. Vets only think they know everything.

Do you know for certain that your bitch is now pregnant? If she isn't and you want another puppy, then buy one. It will be a lot cheaper and a lot less hassle.

I don't wish to be rude as I feel you have had a bad deal, but you are attempting to breed from a dog without the right health tests, in fact you don't seem to even know what they are supposed to be. You did not even know whether your dog was a working cocker or a show cocker, even though they look completely different.

You have been fooled into believing it doesn't matter which dog sires the pups, so long as they are the same colour and temperament, and all this should tell you that you don't have the experience to even think of breeding.

Certainly if you bitch is pregnant, you will want to find the best homes for the pups, but if she is not you should breathe a sigh of relief and forget it or do lots more research first.

I wish you luck whatever you decide.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

starshine said:


> Thankyou for Your kind comment. i want another puppy & the joy of looking after pups again. the other bitch is 6 who has had phantom pregnancies has no more seasons well haven't seen any bleeding. Don't want to spay the other one yet.


Sorry but this says it all for me,I want another puppy, I want the joy of looking after pups again , I dont want to spay yet.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

starshine said:


> Before i came on the forum asking about what day do You count from the 1st or 2nd mating i was not that interested in kc registering than others talked about it. Now i am going to concentrate on bitch & hopefully pups & not on kc registering. Saw stud dog owner info in free ads paper. We had traveled quite far so it was a case of mating first before paper work. With the 1st bitch who is health tested, & dog was health tested we did paper work than a forced mating holding bitch & dog.1 bitch had phantom pregnancies. This time dog & bitch were allowed to get to know eachother first.


Don't you understand though that there are some pretty serious issues in this situation and now - only YOU have the power to do something about it.

I don't understand what you mean by "_we travelled quite far so it was a case of mating first before paperwork_"  

what have distance and paperwork got to do with each other? 

Are you saying that the dog and bitch were left to their own devices to mate? do you realise how dangerous this could be?

Handlers are not there to "force" a mating, but to stop one or both of the dogs doing themselves an injury if one of them tries to bolt once they are tied.



starshine said:


> Thankyou for Your kind comment. i want another puppy & the joy of looking after pups again. the other bitch is 6 who has had phantom pregnancies has no more seasons well haven't seen any bleeding. Don't want to spay the other one yet.


if you want another puppy, go buy one, it is cheaper, easier and safer than risking your girls life solely for the purpose of "having puppies".

Vets are often not up on breed specific health-testing - but again, it still doesn't mean they shouldn't be done.

I had to educate my vets on PRA and CNM DNA testing as they'd not come across it before.

A "booster" and thinking your dog looks healthy means NOTHING.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

I haven't commented on this thread yet but have been following it with some sympathy for the OP who appeared to have been naive and taken advantage of by an unscrupulous individual. 
It now appears that was not the case at all. I am pretty disgusted at what has happened and what is still going on here.
These poor dogs appear to be nowt more than money making schemes. Do your dogs a favour. Get them both (or is it more than 2?) spayed and stop adding to the unwanted dog population. 
You are irresponsible at best. 
Give me red rep if you want. I don't care. I am disgusted.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

starshine said:


> Thankyou for Your kind comment.* i want another puppy & the joy of looking after pups again.* the other bitch is 6 who has had phantom pregnancies has no more seasons well haven't seen any bleeding. Don't want to spay the other one yet.


Can't your just buy or adopt another puppy? I had 2 Cavs (male and female) and I knew that I wanted 1 last dog, so I bought one, I could have quite easily bred my 2, kept one of the pups and made a few quid out of the others but I didn't. I had them 'done' and my puppy will get spayed when she's old enough! I didn't want to add to the dog population and breeding is best left to the experts.

You said that the 1st bitch that you tried to breed from was 'forced' to mate? Well maybe that's why she didn't get pregnant, maybe she wasn't ready? I'm no expert but I'm sure that a stud knows when the time is right, and he wouldn't have needed to be forced.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

im with the above, lucy, i have read this thread and am now in complete shock by the OPs lack of care for her dog and the ones she is bringing into the world with parents unknown.

I cant believe she is willing to register them with the KC still and i really cannot believe she is plainly refusing to mismate her poor bitch.

These puppies can be coming into the world with serious genetic problems too as there was no health testing done, all because she wanted a puppy, no wonder breeders get a bad name when people like you do it.

I am beyond words really, i just cant believe the attitude.
sad.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

Yor incredibly ignorant replies suggest you should not own any dogs let alone get another or breed another. You have a 6yr old bitch which keeps having phantom pregnancies yet you can't even be bothered to spey her despite the risk of a pyo and her dying being very high, and you now want another dog by breeding it because you feel like it and want a few cute puppies to play with??? - people like you make my blood boil and make me feel physically sick, the only kind of pets you should be keeping are those little plastic fish that bob about in a tank!!!!!:cursing:
You obviously don't care about your pets at all and are treating them as a potential cash machines!!!!!:cursing::cursing::cursing:


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

Perhaps a lesson in how not to find a stud dog :-( You need to find out a lot more than just an 'ad in the free papers' :-( I'm glad you're going to concentrate on your bitch and not kc reg the pups, look on this as a steep learning curve and find a decent and reputable stud dog owner next time. Come on here for advice - we're not so bad and will help you, but just shocked at what has happened.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

starshine said:


> i only have 2 bitches one i tried mating twice she had phanton pregnancies will not use her again. Was only going to mate this bitch once then not mate her again so am not using them as a money machine.


You're using her for your own selfish ends, and doing a bad, irresponsible job of it. Nothing has been done for the benefit of your dogs or dogs in general. Whether money comes in to it is irrelevant.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2012)

starshine said:


> The 1st bitch was mated twice had 2 phantom pregnancies was not mated again. i am only going to mate this bitch twice. i do care for my bitches & if they never got pregnant i would still love them. Just want the opportunity of having pups again. i was told by stud dog owner that if i had 1st bitch spayed that would bring on pyometra not stop it. Also been told by vet that there have been mis diagnosis of pyometra. if i didn't care for my bitches i would not have come on this & the other forum & asked for advice.


if you care as much as you say you did you wouldn`t have a problem when being advised to take your bitch to have the mismate jab , if you loved your dogs you would just do it as soon as you possibly could , like arranging an appointment with your vet for tomorrow.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

I don't understand why you wont either mismate or DNA test since the risk of inherited illnesses is so high (since neither were health tested).

It just seems....lazy. ut:


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

starshine said:


> AlexArt said:
> 
> 
> > You have a 6yr old bitch which keeps having phantom pregnancies yet you can't even be bothered to spey her despite the risk of a pyo and her dying being very high.
> ...


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> i was told by stud dog owner that if i had 1st bitch spayed that would bring on pyometra not stop it.


FFS - I can't work out if this is a wind up or for real. Firstly, why are you taking notice of this stud dog owner who is dishonest and either doesn't know what he is doing or doesn't care and if you want some information on health matters why aren't you asking your vet.

Secondly, a quick anatomy lesson - Pyometra is infection of the uterus brought about by hormonal changes during a bitches cycle. As spay will remove both the uterus and hormonal changes. HOW can a spayed bitch get pyometra? Surely logic would tell you this - but you prefer to believe this ridiculous, dishonest stud dog owner?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

starshine said:


> when i look on the health check of the names on the pedigree cert lots of the dogs have not been health tested & are alright? If health tests were so important surely vets would make sure all dogs have them, like a dr does with children.


You know what - I think this is a wind up - no one with any sense could keep harping on about this.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

starshine said:


> when i look on the health check of the names on the pedigree cert lots of the dogs have not been health tested & are alright? If health tests were so important surely vets would make sure all dogs have them, like a dr does with children.


*facepalm*

1) Why would vets encourage health testing when health problems is what keeps them in business? Also most vets are not good with breeding advice, I see plenty of vets encouraging breeding of Staffies and other unethical breeding because they get more money if the dog needs a c-section or any of the puppies need to be seen.

2) So because joe down the road doesn't health test, you shouldn't? Would you like to come meet my dog Scorcher, irresponsible breeders like you are the reason I sit up crying at night. My dog is suffering because her lazy breeders didn't test their dogs. If you attitude is that it doesn't matter then I am sorry but you don't care about your dogs, if you did you would not want their offspring to suffer.

I don't care if it comes across harsh, I am sick of breeders like you. Breeding for no reason at all except for "wanna see cute pupz awwww" and a completely ignorant attitude towards testing!


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

starshine said:


> yes 2 stud dogs both same colour & temperament.


They are STill 2 different Dogs though are you new to Breeding and did'nt realise that the owner of the Studs was being totally out of order.

Hope your little Girl is ok,.]


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

You don't love your dogs though - sorry - your actions speak louder than words!

A pyometra literally translated means puss in the uterus - remove the uterus as they do in a spey and there is no chance in hell the dog can get a pyo!!!!!!!!!

It really is like talking to a brick, and a really stupid one at that - are you a troll???ut:


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

It has to be a troll, no one is so ignorant....surely.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

starshine said:


> i don't believe the stud dog owner but even the vet said that there can be misdisagnosis. eg one couple were told there bitch had pyometra couple didn't take any notice a few weeks later bitch had pups. Another couple were told bitch was fine a few weeks later bitch died of pyometra.


yes - but the point is - neuter her and you stop any risk of pyo dead in its tracks - and you stop her having phantoms.

I would hazard a guess that there is a STRONG likelihood your bitch is pregnant.

as for "dogs being OK" - dogs can have Hip Dysplasia and be asymptomatic - if they then happen to be bred to another dog with asymptomatic hip dysplasa the risks do shoot high - not all dogs are asymptomatic - some need Total Hip replacements.

Dogs can be genetically affected for PRA and never go blind - bring two genetically affected dogs, or one affected, one carrier together - and there is going to be a problem.

PRA and FN are both recessive genes - therefore one parent must be genetically clear to remove the risk of producing affected pups.

Quite simply - the parents can live long happy healthy lives - leaving YOU (not the stud dog owner) to pick up the pieces if the pups develop problems

With a small number of exceptions - most conditions cannot be determined simply by looking at a dog or knowing how long it lived.

I've personal experience of what might never happen and what happened when it shouldn't have - but it certainly won't stop me using the health-schemes.

Anecdotal evidence tells us that even where pups from hipscored parents go on to develop problems - the severity of these problem usually tends to be far less than those dogs coming from breeders who don't hipscore - probably because the breeder has done everything right in keeping the bitch, raising the pups and advising the new owners about good diet and exercise during the first year of the pups life.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

starshine said:


> yes i am a troll what ever that is. Yes i have lost my Mum to cancer & i was bored so thought i would get everyone talking wow 20 pages of discussion.
> i haven't got any bitches or dogs or know of any stud dogs. in fact i have 2 cats. it was all my imagination to see how arrogant & persistent some people can be. Thankyou all for entertaining me & distracting me from my grief. i will now leave this forum & the other one.:001_tt2:


Well, I have had my suspicions for quite some time, however, I am fully aware that there are some unfortunates who really do have IQs in single figures so we have to factor that in. And then there are even more unfortunates who think they are more intelligent but their IQ isn't much higher either. :wink5:

Besides, nothing is ever wasted in an open forum. The information given reaches way beyond the OP of a thread.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

In that case it can only be a good thing that ur a troll


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> In that case it can only be a good thing that ur a troll


Or is she? Is this her now wriggling out of a can of worms she's opened?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Yeah scared of been reported


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Well, I have had my suspicions for quite some time, however, I am fully aware that there are some unfortunates who really do have IQs in single figures so we have to factor that in. And then there are even more unfortunates who think they are more intelligent but their IQ isn't much higher either. :wink5:
> 
> Besides, nothing is ever wasted in an open forum. The information given reaches way beyond the OP of a thread.


Makes you wonder about the sick, dim inadaquecies people have 

I've heard of, and experienced many ways of overcoming grief - but this is a new one on me 

Maybe with their vivd imagination, the OP will become the next J K Rowling - or it could of course be an exercise in damage limitation following the furore on another forum


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Dogless said:


> starshine said:
> 
> 
> > I have never owned a bitch, but my understanding is that pyometra is an infection of the womb; spaying is removal of the womb therefore prevents pyometra .
> ...


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

Or perhaps a hope that no one goes to the effort of putting 2 and 2 together and looking for the pups advert/KC reg and reporting her. Unlikely you think OP, its a shame anyone in any walk of life thinks they are anonymous but you leave tracks with whatever you do 

I for one do not think she is a troll, just misguided initially and plain old stubborn now. ut:

I HOPE the bitch goes on to have healthy puppies and a healthy pregnancy (if she has in fact caught ) and the puppies go to responsible homes far better than their mothers, one where they are not seems as breeding machines and valued individually as lovely pets.

Sadly the opposite is true. Especially as the OP doesn't know if she has show or working bred dog and can't even be bothered to look at the link provided and see which dog it is. They could hardly be more different. That just speaks volumes about the amount of reaserch the OP is prepared to do.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

SharonM said:


> Or is she? Is this her now wriggling out of a can of worms she's opened?


Could be but doubt it. The wording suggested someone who was literate, the questions suggested someone who was 'mentally challenged' so it did appear to be a troll, but one has to be careful because there are some who are genuinely stupid and I wouldn't wish to offend them.

Besides, if it is someone who is trying to wriggle out of a can of worms, no advice is going to change the fraud they would carry out. So end of story anyway.

Of course, the poster may not have lost their mother at all. If they have, and this little adventure has given them some comfort then at least someone has benefitted. If they haven't then it doesn't really matter anyway because there is still plenty of information on this thread for others who may read it and learn from it. :wink5:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> ARGGHH Just seen the post about I'm a Troll WTF Hope you are pleased with yourself alot of people have wasted time and effort reply to you for nothing.... maybe this is a lesson for us....Think I'll just natter to people I know are Real from now on.


Everything is not as it seems


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Troll or no troll, you are a disgrace! Discussing your Mother's illness to back up your story - that is shameful

If you are a troll, GET A LIFE!!!

And if you are not, then I suggest you watch out if you decide to register those pups. There will be a lot of people keeping an eye on the forthcoming litter registrations

I do my best to balance things out when people like you (or the person you are pretending to be) go onto forums asking for advice, when they clearly don't have a clue. When members tell them that they are money making fools, I prefer to offer advice, just in case there is a bitch that needs the assistance of a human possessing a brain. You've made a mockery of everyone who has tried to help on this forum. Human beings can be so disappointing................that's why I prefer animals


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2012)

starshine said:


> yes i am a troll what ever that is. Yes i have lost my Mum to cancer & i was bored so thought i would get everyone talking wow 20 pages of discussion.
> i haven't got any bitches or dogs or know of any stud dogs. in fact i have 2 cats. it was all my imagination to see how arrogant & persistent some people can be. Thankyou all for entertaining me & distracting me from my grief. i will now leave this forum & the other one.:001_tt2:


maybe you should take yourself off for the mismate jab too:idea:


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Well all I can say is God help your 2 cats (thats if they are even real)why would you think all this rubbish would bother us,you are not the first and doubt you'll be the lastut:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> when i look on the health check of the names on the pedigree cert lots of the dogs have not been health tested & are alright? If health tests were so important surely vets would make sure all dogs have them, like a dr does with children.


I can't really help it; I know you have declared yourself to be a troll, but I think perhaps you were being sarcastic, but just in case..........Why should every dog need the health tests that breeding parents do? It seems that you do not even understand what health tests are or what they are for, or the fact that they have nothing whatever to do with your local vet.

If I am buying a puppy, I don't want to risk him having something inherited from one of his parents. That is why all breeding parents should be health checked for the specific illnesses their particular breed is susceptible to.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

The more I think about the OP, the more I think she isn't a troll, you know.

I think a troll may have made up something to really rock the boat. The story that was made here (whether truth or fiction - who knows) wasn't that far off the wall. Sure, anyone with any breeding knowledge whatsoever, would know that using two studs is an absolute NO WAY but I am not sure that your average "I just want a litter to keep a puppy" type breeder would know about the problems using two studs could cause.

I must admit, when I read the last few posts the OP made, I thought "OMG, you are just asking for abuse - get your head in gear" because they were showing not just a lack of knowlege of breeding but a massive lack of common sense too.

I have to wonder whether the OP just got a bit frightened by the fraud comments and thought the "I'm a troll" option was a get out of jail free card

Either way, I don't get it. The behaviour of some makes my mind boggle. Just when I think I couldn't be surprised by human behaviour, another human specimen shows their true coloursut:


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

no, i dont think they are a troll either, sad to say!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chichi said:


> The more I think about the OP, the more I think she isn't a troll, you know.
> 
> I think a troll may have made up something to really rock the boat. The story that was made here (whether truth or fiction - who knows) wasn't that far off the wall. Sure, anyone with any breeding knowledge whatsoever, would know that using two studs is an absolute NO WAY but I am not sure that your average "I just want a litter to keep a puppy" type breeder would know about the problems using two studs could cause.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you said this - I'm with you all the way - I think the about turn is more of a damage limitation exercise !!!

If the OP does think it will give them a "get out" - people have long memories - the scenario has created considerable concern across many of the dog breeding fraternity


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I am sure it is a very common scenario. KC registration is only as good as the breeder's honesty and there are so many fraudulent ways of registering pups. Not sure why it would cause concern among 'the dog breeding fraternity' when it is has always been known that litters are registered fraudulently by various methods. Or not even registered, but sold with some other puppy's registration.


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

Blitz said:


> I am sure it is a very common scenario. KC registration is only as good as the breeder's honesty and there are so many fraudulent ways of registering pups. Not sure why it would cause concern among 'the dog breeding fraternity' when it is has always been known that litters are registered fraudulently by various methods. Or not even registered, but sold with some other puppy's registration.


What a very strange thing to say, Blitz! Of course it's concerning to read of a case where the possible pups' registration details could be inaccurate!


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

Starshine, I think you should know why so many of us are "on your case" as it were. Pedigree dog breeders have been getting an awful lot of stick over the past few years, after a certain tv programme. The reputable ones are working their socks off to ensure the puppies they are responsible for bringing in to the world are fit and healthy and they are doing everything possible to show the public that buying a KC registered puppy means more than just a piece of paper.

Unfortunately, it sounds like the stud dog owner is one of the irresponsible types that give the responsible people a bad name.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

If she doesn't have dogs, how does she know that their kc numbers start with AL2......this has happened I feel and she's now trying to convince us otherwise so it doesn't make her look so bad, don't worry we will be looking out especially on the freebie websites for the litter in around 8 weeks time.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> If she doesn't have dogs, how does she know that their kc numbers start with AL2


I must have missed that - however, from the first post, nothing was right. Someone who has already had a litter and 'supposedly' did health tests didn't know that a bitch that had two stud dogs used could produce a litter with pups from both  Some of us have been berated for being unkind and not trying to win the OP over and try to educate them. Sorry, but it became apparent pretty quickly that this posted didn't want help (even though they said they wanted to do the right thing).


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

SharonM said:


> If she doesn't have dogs, how does she know that their kc numbers start with AL2......this has happened I feel and she's now trying to convince us otherwise so it doesn't make her look so bad, don't worry we will be looking out especially on the freebie websites for the litter in around 8 weeks time.


Hi this is a threat & isnt very nice. Why aren't You tackling & searching out for puppy farms & making sure the kennel club tackle right registering. There are lots of pedigree dog ads where it doesn't say anything about the parents being health tested.Yes i do have bitches.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

let me put the record straight yes the 1st post is true & did happen. i am a novice breeder my priority was to get pups & didn't realise the implications of using 2 dogs. Now i know & hopefully others will now know that when 2 dogs mate a bitch then wether it be a pedigree & a mongrel or 2 pedigrees a dna will be needed to kc register dogs. As i have explained the stud dog owner won't do this. 
People were going on at me even threatening to report me & saying they are watching out for pups ads. So yes when others said i was a troll i took the easy way out. Which some of You guessed i had done. i have lost my Mum but i was wrong to have used that as an excuse. 
Yes i went on other forum which is stricter than this one & is monitored. They could see i was being attacked & removed my post without me even asking them. This site has allowed me to delete some of my posts.


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

starshine said:


> let me put the record straight yes the 1st post is true & did happen. i am a novice breeder my priority was to get pups & didn't realise the implications of using 2 dogs. Now i know & hopefully others will now know that when 2 dogs mate a bitch then wether it be a pedigree & a mongrel or 2 pedigrees a dna will be needed to kc register dogs. As i have explained the stud dog owner won't do this.
> People were going on at me even threatening to report me & saying they are watching out for pups ads. So yes when others said i was a troll i took the easy way out. Which some of You guessed i had done. i have lost my Mum but i was wrong to have used that as an excuse.
> Yes i went on other forum which is stricter than this one & is monitored. They could see i was being attacked & removed my post without me even asking them. This site has allowed me to delete some of my posts.


Starshine - IF this latest post of yours is true, then you could report the man who owns the dogs to the Kennel Club and to the breed clubs. At least then you'll be doing something positive.
Can I ask what you intend to do about your girl's possible pregnancy? I assume you intend to continue with it - though it would be more sensible to go to your vet and have the mismate injection. And do you intend to sell the pups as pedigree and/or register them?


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

if i could turn the clock back i would not have let stud dog owner use other dog but i can't do that. Everything is better in hindsight. Wether or not bitch has pups i will have her health tested. 
i have taken on board all advice kindly & sometimes rudely given & if bitch is pregnant will most probably register them as sire unknown. i do not like the fact that for 8weeks or more some poor interfering people are going to be watching free add papers. Where were they when in one womans case she got a letter from the kc asking if her stud dog was the father of these pups she said no my dog has been dead for 3 years. a man had used her dog once kept the info then bred presumably from a non pedigree dog claiming her dog was the sire. There are far worst cases than mine but as usual the underdog gets picked on. 
i came on here for advice which i have been given but i have also been insulted. As someone once said to me if one does not ask questions & for advice there is no point in a forum & one will never learn.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

pickle said:


> Starshine, I think you should know why so many of us are "on your case" as it were. Pedigree dog breeders have been getting an awful lot of stick over the past few years, after a certain tv programme. The reputable ones are working their socks off to ensure the puppies they are responsible for bringing in to the world are fit and healthy and they are doing everything possible to show the public that buying a KC registered puppy means more than just a piece of paper.
> 
> Unfortunately, it sounds like the stud dog owner is one of the irresponsible types that give the responsible people a bad name.


Thankyou what programme? To most people including me who has 2 kc registered bitches all that was important was the piece of paper. Although non kc dogs are going as pricey as non kc registered.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm sure if the man had come here and asked if it was ok to use the details of a different stud dog to the one actually used, he would have got a very rough response. What he did was deliberate, I still think you have had a rough ride and are trying to do your best.

I don't understand why the stud owner will not co-operate with DNA testing unless one of the dogs was not even a pedigree.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

starshine said:


> Thankyou what programme? To most people including me who has 2 kc registered bitches all that was important was the piece of paper. Although non kc dogs are going as pricey as non kc registered.


You are breeding but all you know about kc and care about is a peice of paper.

Oh dear. Why breed?! Why?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> Thankyou what programme? To most people including me who has 2 kc registered bitches all that was important was the piece of paper. Although non kc dogs are going as pricey as non kc registered.


That's not really the point, though. I can look at my dogs' pedigrees and I can go on the database and find out all about their ancestors, what they have won, what health tests they had, what offspring they have had. If people start putting the wrong information for their own benefit, then if there is a problem it cannot be traced back.

I think she means the Pedigree Dogs Exposed programme.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> I must have missed that - however, from the first post, nothing was right. Someone who has already had a litter and 'supposedly' did health tests didn't know that a bitch that had two stud dogs used could produce a litter with pups from both  Some of us have been berated for being unkind and not trying to win the OP over and try to educate them. Sorry, but it became apparent pretty quickly that this posted didn't want help (even though they said they wanted to do the right thing).


let me correct You i had a litter from a non pedigree dog many years ago. i didn't do health tests only the yearly booster. yes 2 dogs could make a bitch pregnant but one could be firing blanks. My other bitch had a tie with a dog didn't have pups had a phantom pregnancy. So even with a mating pups are not definite. Even experienced breeders have had misses. i do want help or other wise i wouldn't have come on here. At least i am putting things in the open & not doing things secretly.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I'm sure if the man had come here and asked if it was ok to use the details of a different stud dog to the one actually used, he would have got a very rough response. What he did was deliberate, I still think you have had a rough ride and are trying to do your best.
> 
> I don't understand why the stud owner will not co-operate with DNA testing unless one of the dogs was not even a pedigree.


Thankyou He does say both dogs are working dogs & that the other one is kc registered.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I really have no idea why you wont do a mismate. Unless you are only concerned with the money pups will bring.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> You are breeding but all you know about kc and care about is a peice of paper.
> 
> Oh dear. Why breed?! Why?


To have pups & even on the kc register litter form it talks only talks about caesarean births. Was going to wait until i knew for sure if she is pregnant before reading kennel club info. i know it is not an excuse but i thought if all these other people are breeding dogs why shouldn't i.
i do love my bitches & do care for dogs. i know now i was nieve but don't think threatening me helps. If people didn't come on the forum asking for advice issues like this would not be out in the open but would be hidden away. i have not learnt things & hopefully others will do to & that the forum has done it's job by helping & advicing novice & other breeders.
In fact if a person has a bitch have 1 litter are they a breeder?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

starshine said:


> To have pups & even on the kc register litter form it talks only talks about caesarean births. Was going to wait until i knew for sure if she is pregnant before reading kennel club info. i know it is not an excuse but i thought if all these other people are breeding dogs why shouldn't i.
> i do love my bitches & do care for dogs. i know now i was nieve but don't think threatening me helps. If people didn't come on the forum asking for advice issues like this would not be out in the open but would be hidden away. i have not learnt things & hopefully others will do to & that the forum has done it's job by helping & advicing novice & other breeders.
> In fact if a person has a bitch have 1 litter are they a breeder?


I never once threatened you so thats yet another thing you have wrong.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> That's not really the point, though. I can look at my dogs' pedigrees and I can go on the database and find out all about their ancestors, what they have won, what health tests they had, what offspring they have had. If people start putting the wrong information for their own benefit, then if there is a problem it cannot be traced back.
> 
> I think she means the Pedigree Dogs Exposed programme.


Yes i know i found the kc health thing through another site i looked up the previous stud dog no progeny, looked up this stud dogs health no health tests & no progeny. This stud dog is supposed to have had 30+ matings but can't find any progeny. You usually get the pedigree certificate after You have stud dog or after You have bought pups.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

starshine said:


> if bitch is pregnant will most probably register them as sire unknown.


I didn't think you could still do that


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I really have no idea why you wont do a mismate. Unless you are only concerned with the money pups will bring.


what if i did mismate & she no longer had pups i would have missed that chance to have pups. i had to have a hysterectomy for health reasons can't have children so don't want to stop nature & to me a mismate is like an abortion. For all i know she isn't even pregnant & all this is a learning curve.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> Yes i know i found the kc health thing through another site i looked up the previous stud dog no progeny, looked up this stud dogs health no health tests & no progeny. This stud dog is supposed to have had 30+ matings but can't find any progeny. You usually get the pedigree certificate after You have stud dog or after You have bought pups.


Ahh! 30+ failed matings! I think, if I have this right, it is becoming clear now. He has a dog with health tests and a great pedigree, the first one. But he knows that dog has never managed to produce any offspring, so he puts the other one in as a second option. The litter will be registered as the first dog's offspring which will make him look good for future stud prospects.

As to not getting the pedigree certificate, I think all the information is on the kennel club site. So when I go to see puppies, I will know the kc names of both parents and I can look them up before I even see the puppies. If a breeder doesn't want to supply those names, then there is something dodgy and I don't go!

I think this thread has got a bit out of hand to be honest, though it will still be very useful for anyone wishing to breed. You came here wanting to know when to count from, without a clue that there was anything wrong with what had happened. You had not even thought about registration. Now a lot of stuff has come to your attention, you will know better in future.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

starshine said:


> what if i did mismate & she no longer had pups i would have missed that chance to have pups. i had to have a hysterectomy for health reasons can't have children so don't want to stop nature & to me a mismate is like an abortion. For all i know she isn't even pregnant & all this is a learning curve.


You really are beyond words!

It doesnt matter if you miss the opportunity to breed her, she should be worth more to you then that and her health and safety and the fact she is a lovely dog come first.

You didnt even do any research at all into breeding her, not even on the kc about anything to do with breeding and now you are saying it like she is having these pups as a substitute to you having a baby, well!

The responsible thing to do after this is a mismate, this is not the same as an abortion, look at it like the morning after pill instead, although i don't really see much point in talking reason to you, you seem beyond it to me quite frankly!


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

Yes it makes you a breeder, as you bred the pups! 
Why wont you take the advise given about the jab? 
Before finding this forum, I tried breeding my bitch. Even asked for advise on where to get scans done as didn't trust the vet. But she never caught, THANKFULLY!!! Like you, was a novice and just wanted one of my girls pups as I thought she was the best looking girl around. She has a very good blood line with lots of winners close to her (Both sets of grand fathers and grandmother were show winners). But I never did any health tests, as i thought as both parents had been fully tested that she wouldn't need to be tested. How wrong was I, she has had fits and a couple of other little hic-ups along the way that I am grateful t say she will never pass on to any pups. She has since been spayed and I have bought a pup. 
I have learnt so much being on this forum, and just hope I continue to learn more. Please head the advise being given, they are not attacking you, they just want the best for your girl and to any future pups being born.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

Ridgielover said:


> Starshine - IF this latest post of yours is true, then you could report the man who owns the dogs to the Kennel Club and to the breed clubs. At least then you'll be doing something positive.
> Can I ask what you intend to do about your girl's possible pregnancy? I assume you intend to continue with it - though it would be more sensible to go to your vet and have the mismate injection. And do you intend to sell the pups as pedigree and/or register them?


If i reported him he would probably deny it & as someone who has breed lots of dogs they would probably believe him over me. i have explained i am not doing a mis match injection 1 woman on here her bitch mated a pedigree then a mongrel she is still going to have pups. i have not decided yet but i will definilty not be doing what the couple did that i bought bitch from they advertised their pups as kc reg yet when You got there they weren't registered they were waiting until all pups had been sold then registering them.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I agree with newfiesmum, the stud dog who is reg is prob infertile and therefore he always supplements with the other to try and get pups out of him instead, however if he does do that then there is the question of where are the pups registered in his name if he goes about doing this often then you would imagine some others would have registered a litter under the stud name given.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

starshine said:


> If i reported him he would probably deny it & as someone who has breed lots of dogs they would probably believe him over me. i have explained i am not doing a mis match injection 1 woman on here her bitch mated a pedigree then a mongrel she is still going to have pups. i have not decided yet but i will definilty not be doing what the couple did that i bought bitch from they advertised their pups as kc reg yet when You got there they weren't registered they were waiting until all pups had been sold then registering them.


Well you cant register them anyway!

And there is no problem doing that if it is legit, i took alfie home with no papers as i could pick my own kc name for him, he is kc registered as i got them through the post once all pups were in their new homes.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

But nature didnt produce these puppies, you did


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

starshine, you need to stop projecting human emotions onto your dog. they dont Have to have pups, and a dog does Not react to a spay like a woman does to a hysterectomy. its not the same thing.
as for the mismate, ok it stops the pregnancy from continuing, but it isnt in any way invasive or traumatic- it would be like taking the morning after pill, not a late stage abortion. and i have had to use it on one of my girls- she was caught by my grans dog (both yorkies) and since i wanted a healthy litter (even though toby had a very impressive pedigree) i got her the mismate. if anything she enjoyed the experience because she got a day out in the car and extra treats from the nice man with the needle.

you need to think what is best for your much loved girl, and although it will upset you not having pups this time round, she will be none the wiser, and you would then have the chance to mate her again with a Good stud from a Good stud handler, and have a healthy litter instead of the genetic lottery this litter would be.



starshine said:


> Thankyou He does say both dogs are working dogs & that the other one is kc registered.


i dont trust this man one bit and i've never even met him, so why are you taking his word on anything? i could say that i have a pedigree chihuahua bitch... but i don't- shes a chiXyorkie, and looks like a chi, yet if she was to have pups with an actual pedigree chi the pups could come out looking like yorkies... 
you honeslty will have no idea what she is carrying (i'm assuming she will be pregnant) and even though you are not worried about the pedigree of the pups, if the 2nd male was just as good a match as the first dog (who got tired  ) then why wasn't he used from the start? could it not have been because there is something about this boy that doesnt look good on paper? could this not be a Gentetic issue?

whatever you decide to do, you Need to report him. from what i remember reading pages ago (forgive me if i'm wrong) you said he is a very well-used 'stud handler', and if he has more than one breed  i dread to think.

ohh, i rambled on a bit- when i started we were still on page 21


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

BullyMolly said:


> Yes it makes you a breeder, as you bred the pups!
> Before finding this forum, I tried breeding my bitch. Even asked for advise on where to get scans done as didn't trust the vet. But she never caught, THANKFULLY!!! Like you, was a novice and just wanted one of my girls pups as I thought she was the best looking girl around. But I never did any health tests, as i thought as both parents had been fully tested that she wouldn't need to be tested. How wrong was I, she has had fits and a couple of other little hic-ups along the way that I am grateful t say she will never pass on to any pups. She has since been spayed and I have bought a pup.
> I have learnt so much being on this forum, and just hope I continue to learn more. Please head the advise being given, they are not attacking you, they just want the best for your girl and to any future pups being born.


Thankyou i am taking some people advice & like You have learnt a lot You never stop learning. So even though Your bitches parents had been health tested she still had problems. So even if bitch & stud dog had health tests the pups might still have problems? i will defintly be getting bitch health tested.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I think this thread has got a bit out of hand to be honest, though it will still be very useful for anyone wishing to breed. You came here wanting to know when to count from, without a clue that there was anything wrong with what had happened. You had not even thought about registration. Now a lot of stuff has come to your attention, you will know better in future.


i did ask the breeder the name of the dog intending to look it up on kc site but he wouldn't give me the kc name only the pet name. i did not think of regsitration until i knew that the bitch was definltly pregnant which You don't know until about 5 wks+ after mating if even then. As i said other bitch looked like she was pregnant all the way but it was a phantom pregnancy. Yes definitly know better in the future.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> Thankyou i am taking some people advice & like You have learnt a lot You never stop learning. So even though Your bitches parents had been health tested she still had problems. So even if bitch & stud dog had health tests the pups might still have problems? i will defintly be getting bitch health tested.


My Ferdie comes from top champion parents who have both had the right health tests, elbows, low hip scores, heart scans. But he had a hernia which can be hereditary, so he cannot be bred from. I was told this before I bought him but it didn't matter to me as I just wanted a nice natured big, hairy dog, but just because he is unlikely to pass on HD or SAS, doesn't mean he can't pass on something else.


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

starshine said:


> Thankyou what programme? To most people including me who has 2 kc registered bitches all that was important was the piece of paper. *Although non kc dogs are going as pricey as non kc registered.*


Hmm, seems you have done some research! Funny that it's into how much you can sell the pups for rather than what to do for your bitch to help her through this pregnancy that you are making her endure! ut:


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

starshine said:


> Thankyou i am taking some people advice & like You have learnt a lot You never stop learning. So even though Your bitches parents had been health tested she still had problems. So even if bitch & stud dog had health tests the pups might still have problems? i will defintly be getting bitch health tested.


Yes, you still test even if the parents are clear. My girl is healthy in every other way. White EBT's are prone to being deaf, my girl isnt. They are known have hip problems, she has none. My point is that all the relevant tests were done to my girls parents and they came back clear, and she is healthy as far as they are concerned, she was just unlucky to have a few fits.
You are not fully aware of the studs health, so would mis mate, and start over. All health checks done, and all research done prior to mating. Its only like the morning after pill


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Izzysmummy said:


> Hmm, seems you have done some research! Funny that it's into how much you can sell the pups for rather than what to do for your bitch to help her through this pregnancy that you are making her endure! ut:


yes, if she doesnt know about kc registering or anything about the stud dogs, what about the whelping and raising of the litter, please op do whats best for your girl and give her a mismate jab.

she is not the same as you not having children, she wont miss out on never having a litter!


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## pixieloulou1982 (Jan 28, 2012)

Ok here are the cold hard facts:

You are only answering some questions members here are asking you and avoiding the others. So I am going to be brutally honest and blunt with you. 

Breeding is expensive-it is not a quick means to have money. If you have a successful litter KC or not in this climate many do not have to funds to buy expensive puppies. You will most likely find youself left with puppies as the months go on..which will cost you food...time..energy. In which you will make hardly any financial profit. 

Secondly: It is not advised by human health care professionals to replace the maternal instinct toward having a child by getting a dog or breeding. It does not help you emotionally. 

You will inadvertently raise your dog and treat it like a child-over love it-think of it as a person and lack discipline-causing potential psychological harm to your animal. From a human standpoint, your dogs..that you have right now..should have sated your need for children by your own logic...puppies are not babies. Apologies, but each and every person on this forum has gone through hardships and they do not throw their past around for all to read to justify their naivety. 

There are beneficial health reasons for getting a dog spayed. I suggest you google them. Finally, spaying your bitch will prevent accidental pregnancies. Can you put your hand on your heart-owning 2 dogs and say you can financially support a litter of puppies? What if they do not sell? You keep having to lower the price...6 months later you're still left with 3. Have you thought of that?

What about emergency vets bills for mother and potential pups? What if a puppy gets stuck in the birth canal?

Could you emotionally cope with a litter of still births? These are the cold hard truths. 

Finally, yes or no? Truthfully... if push came to shove... would you re-home potential pups free of charge? Do you know how to home check potential owner? Write puppy contracts?


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

Izzysmummy said:


> Hmm, seems you have done some research! Funny that it's into how much you can sell the pups for rather than what to do for your bitch to help her through this pregnancy that you are making her endure! ut:


i have done research as i have said i have had 1 litter before with a border collie years ago. My other bitch had a phantom pregnancy. That most people say You can't tell if a bitch is pregnant for at least 5 weeks plus & some bitches do not show signs until the last week? 
i don't know price of pups & am not interested in the money i just want to have pups again.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

pixieloulou1982 said:


> Ok here are the cold hard facts:
> You are only answering some questions members here are asking you and avoiding the others. So I am going to be brutally honest and blunt with you.
> Apologies, but each and every person on this forum has gone through hardships and they do not throw their past around for all to read to justify their naivety.
> Could you emotionally cope with a litter of still births? These are the cold hard truths.
> Finally, yes or no? Truthfully... if push came to shove... would you re-home potential pups free of charge? Do you know how to home check potential owner? Write puppy contracts?


i am not making an excuse or using my past to justify my naivety. On the net someone can be someone else. Yes i could cope with litter of still births. i thought i had answered all questions. In fact some people have told me i am putting to much info down. Yes would rehome pups free to good homes.
i have never heard of puppy contracts.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

starshine said:


> what if i did mismate & she no longer had pups i would have missed that chance to have pups. i had to have a hysterectomy for health reasons can't have children so don't want to stop nature & to me a mismate is like an abortion. For all i know she isn't even pregnant & all this is a learning curve.


does she need pups?NO......... will she improve the gene pool for her breed? i doubt it. get a mismate jab done for her and move on. sorry to sound harsh but its the truth.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

dexter said:


> does she need pups?NO......... will she improve the gene pool for her breed? i doubt it. get a mismate jab done for her and move on. sorry to sound harsh but its the truth.


This is the obvious truth but i think it will fall on deaf ears sadly.


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## pixieloulou1982 (Jan 28, 2012)

starshine said:


> i am not making an excuse or using my past to justify my naivety. On the net someone can be someone else. Yes i could cope with litter of still births. i thought i had answered all questions. In fact some people have told me i am putting to much info down. Yes would rehome pups free to good homes.
> i have never heard of puppy contracts.


Puppy contracts are in place if a person wants their money back and to return the pub...it prevents pups being bought and re-sold etc etc. You did not answer my question on whether you could afford all the finances regarding puppies and if you were left with a little who could not be re-homed and or vets expenses.

I feel this thread could go around and around. The general consensus is for you to mismate your dog. If you then decide not to spay afterwards, and want to breed again...I would suggest doing a hell of a lot more research, and spend a long long time thinking about this. Do not breed just because you want puppies yourself. It's selfish. As I said before, why don't you rehome a puppy from a rescue centre?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

starshine said:


> what if i did mismate & she no longer had pups i would have missed that chance to have pups. i had to have a hysterectomy for health reasons can't have children so don't want to stop nature & to me a mismate is like an abortion. For all i know she isn't even pregnant & all this is a learning curve.


But she has a VERY high possibility of being pregnant (from two different dogs)

Dogs aren't like humans, they don't associate the mating with being pregnant or having babies.

Pregnant bitches can and do die during whelping - leaving you with a litter of pups to hand raise.

Bitches reject, attack or even kill their puppies, there have even been recorded instances of them trying to eat them.

Puppies die leaving a bitch who has whelped her litter with nothing to raise - yes, a human would get distressed - at that point, the bitch who has "bought in" to the idea of having babies would be beside herself.

Dogs don't need babies - they follow the "pull" of nature telling them they must mate at a certain time, they have absolutely NO concept of the consequences of this.

The ONLY time you will know whether your bitch will take to motherhood is when the puppies are here - by which time it is too late to do anything about it.

This isn't "nature" - this is you bringing two dogs together - all human decisions forced on the dogs and ultimately, the human having to cope with the fallout, whatever that may be.

If you are going to have a litter - do it properly - a mismate isn't a hysterectomy - and its use is highly unlikely to stop her getting pregnant in the future.

Then you have time to do the required health-tests and find a GOOD, responsible, honest ethical stud dog owner, who will support you from before you go there through until you have sold all the pups (and often further than that - my first stud dog owners are fantastic people and still help me now both with my breeding plans and my showing).

Then you can make the best of whatever happens, knowing in your heart that you have done everything possible to produce healthy, happy pups for their new owners.

Do right by your bitch, her babies and the wider breed as whole.

It is not often I agree with the statements affecting the breed - but this situation is doing a great dis-service to the breed and raises all sorts of questions of how many times it has happened before.

As an aside, if you continue with this litter, you cannot register the pups as "anything" - so they will have to be sold unregistered with sire unknown.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Have you also considered that having a litter can permanently change a dog's personality?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Have you also considered that having a litter can permanently change a dog's personality?


You are so VERY right there - this is what they don't tell you in the books, one of my darling girls changed so dramatically, it was heartbreaking to see - she's neutered now and thankfully happy but not without immense heartache and sadness before that, which might well explain why I still haven't had a litter on the ground since.

======================

Can I just say, the OP has referenced comments predominantly on the other forum about being reported etc

I hope you stay here because there are people who can help, although you do come across as someone who is making it very difficult to help because most suggestions are met with an obstable of some description.

Regardless of whether you stay, what's done is done, and there will be people who will work out which litter it is that appears in the free ads or may be registered with the KC - don't believe for one minute they won't.

There are some people extroardinarily adept at doing this and I have to say, if it were my breed - despite the small print of trawling through the BRS, I and many others would probably feel the same - because this deliberate intention to mislead bitch owners, puppy owners AND the KC MUST be stopped.

In ordinary circumstances, contrary to what many would like to believe, unless the breed is numerically small, a single litter is highly unlikely to have even a miniscule impact on the wider breed - but this situation is slightly different. Even in such a numerically large breed as cockers the connotations are huge and could reverberate in the breed for generations to come.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

pixieloulou1982 said:


> Puppy contracts are in place if a person wants their money back and to return the pub...it prevents pups being bought and re-sold etc etc. You did not answer my question on whether you could afford all the finances regarding puppies and if you were left with a little who could not be re-homed and or vets expenses.
> I feel this thread could go around and around. The general consensus is for you to mismate your dog. If you then decide not to spay afterwards, and want to breed again...I would suggest doing a hell of a lot more research, and spend a long long time thinking about this. Do not breed just because you want puppies yourself. It's selfish. As I said before, why don't you rehome a puppy from a rescue centre?


i would find the money somehow to look after pups & vets bills.Yes the thread is going on. i have been told to get of the forum & ignore what people are saying especially the internet bullies who are threatening me but i am learning & think it is helping others to learn what can go wrong.


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## pixieloulou1982 (Jan 28, 2012)

There is a difference between bullying and expressing an educated view which many of the lovely members here have done. They are not bullying you, but trying to plead with you to better inform and educate yourself before breeding. 

Also..finding the money somehow..is not the same as being financially stable enough to breed. I have 2 dogs and 2 cats..I only have these pets because I fork out a fair bit of money each month on pet insurance and as such do not own a car. 

I wish you all the best and honestly do hope you choose not the breed this time, but in the far off future when you have better educated yourself and have solid financial footing.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Have you also considered that having a litter can permanently change a dog's personality?


Stud dog owner says it will calm her down.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

starshine said:


> Stud dog owner says it will calm her down.


tbo what ever he/she said i'd take with a pinch of sale after allowing 2 different stud dogs to cover your bitch. hardly ethical!


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

starshine said:


> Stud dog owner says it will calm her down.


And you believe him? Why are you picking out some bits to believe and rejecting others?


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:


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## pixieloulou1982 (Jan 28, 2012)

starshine said:


> Stud dog owner says it will calm her down.


-tries not to laugh our of sheer confusion-

I am sorry...you're listening to the stud dog owner who fraudulently messed up this mating by using two dogs?

I remember my dad when he bred JR's..our dog Mopp....after the litter she went twitchy.... snappy...aloof.... Spaying calmed her down..but that took a fair few months for her hormones to settles and she eventually calmed down.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

starshine said:


> i would find the money somehow to look after pups & vets bills.


finding the money Somehow isnt nearly as prepared as you need to be i'm afraid. what if she gets ill in the middle of the night a few days after having 9 pups and needs emergency attention, followed by a few days in the vets leaving you handfeeding the litter... have you looked into how much that would cost, never mind the emotional strain? saying you can cope and having to cope are very different things. i know i could probably handle a stillborn pup, but what if one dies suddenly at 6 weeks- its a very different story then, and can happen.



starshine said:


> i have been told to get of the forum & ignore what people are saying especially the internet bullies who are threatening me but i am learning & think it is helping others to learn what can go wrong.


are you recieving threatening pms? becauser that is not on and the moderators Will sort those few out for you... in all honesty, i think you would benefit greatly by staying, and so will your girlie and pups.
there have been a few things you have said that seem to show a need for further research- i dont in any way mean that rudely, we are all still learning after all, and the amount these people have taught me is astounding (especailly a certain lab lady who i'm sure you have noticed).


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Losing the will to live here


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

swarthy said:


> You are so VERY right there - this is what they don't tell you in the books, one of my darling girls changed so dramatically, it was heartbreaking to see - she's neutered now and thankfully happy but not without immense heartache and sadness before that, which might well explain why I still haven't had a litter on the ground since.
> 
> ======================
> 
> ...


i am not being difficult & You are helping. i do not know what to believe i believed the stud dog owner now by coming on here i am questioning what he said. eg he said the dog had mated 30+ yet on kc health test it is not showing any progeny. he said a similar color to mine also used his dog. as someone said maybe the 1st dog was infertile 2nd dog fertile but he is using 1st dogs pedigree to look good. 
i have not made any decision yet as not guaranteed bitch is pregnant. Surely the important thing is that the pups & bitch are healthy. Kc should be more stringent & tighter as it is there name on the certificate. i have not said i will kc register the pups. i am not sounding irresponsible but everyone knows when You buy/get a dog it is Your responsibility, You can't go back to the breeder. The couple i got bitch from said they would be there for any help/advice & if i ever wanted to breed from her they had a good dog for her. Yes they have moved & there is no way of contacting them. As this stud dog owner won't do a dna i will never know who the father is & as kc certificates don't come with pictures how do You know if the dog on it is the one You have just used. Things are so crooked these days.You can't trust anyone. You are very lucky to still know Your stud dog owner.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

starshine said:


> i am not being difficult & You are helping. i do not know what to believe i believed the stud dog owner now by coming on here i am questioning what he said. eg he said the dog had mated 30+ yet on kc health test it is not showing any progeny. he said a similar color to mine also used his dog. as someone said maybe the 1st dog was infertile 2nd dog fertile but he is using 1st dogs pedigree to look good.
> i have not made any decision yet as not guaranteed bitch is pregnant. Surely the important thing is that the pups & bitch are healthy. Kc should be more stringent & tighter as it is there name on the certificate. i have not said i will kc register the pups. i am not sounding irresponsible but everyone knows when You buy/get a dog it is Your responsibility, You can't go back to the breeder. The couple i got bitch from said they would be there for any help/advice & if i ever wanted to breed from her they had a good dog for her. Yes they have moved & there is no way of contacting them. As this stud dog owner won't do a dna i will never know who the father is & as kc certificates don't come with pictures how do You know if the dog on it is the one You have just used. Things are so crooked these days.You can't trust anyone. You are very lucky to still know Your stud dog owner.


Please just listen to reason and give your girl the mismate, you dont need to wait until you know she is in whelp, do the right thing.

they may not be healthy at all if they have had no health testing done so you cant rely on that.

You really have to go back to square one if you are interested in breeding, you have no idea, you think a health check is the yearly vaccines!


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

pixieloulou1982 said:


> There is a difference between bullying and expressing an educated view which many of the lovely members here have done. They are not bullying you, but trying to plead with you to better inform and educate yourself before breeding.
> 
> Also..finding the money somehow..is not the same as being financially stable enough to breed. I have 2 dogs and 2 cats..I only have these pets because I fork out a fair bit of money each month on pet insurance and as such do not own a car.
> 
> I wish you all the best and honestly do hope you choose not the breed this time, but in the far off future when you have better educated yourself and have solid financial footing.


Thankyou. i have not decided anything yet because i am not sure she is pregnant but am reading all i can on dog breeding & kc rules.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

dexter said:


> tbo what ever he/she said i'd take with a pinch of sale after allowing 2 different stud dogs to cover your bitch. hardly ethical!


Yes i know that in hindsight also one was a working dog that he uses a stud dog that he breeds from with visiting bitches & his own bitches the other one was also a working dog that had only mated a few times.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

starshine said:


> Thankyou. i have not decided anything yet because i am not sure she is pregnant but am reading all i can on dog breeding & kc rules.


generally though, after a sucessful tie, you always assume she Is pregnant... my missy who got caught by grans dog may not have been pregnant, but since he has now passed away at only 9 almost blind from pra, in pain with lp and had a collapse trachea i'm sure as heck glad we did mismate! also, i forgot to mention before hand- topby had been neutered a few weeks before they tied, and i Still had to assume she was pregnant.

what is it exactly you haven't decided on?


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Ok OP you are just going round in circles here and it doesnt seem like your taking anything in  

We bred dogs originally from wolves. Now in the wild only the alpha (dominant) bitch and dog will breed. When we selectivly bred dogs we bred them with faults. Im talking about genetic defaults. We did this to get certain atributes i.e colour, looks etc. We control the breeding of these dogs, they as animals wouldnt breed and breed and breed, there would be a alpha pair. Now if i had a penny for the amount of times i have herd that dogs should be alowed to breed i would be rich. If that was so then we would have hundreds and thousands of very poorly dogs.

You need to sit down and seriously think what is best for your dog not what is best for you. Yes you want puppies but shouldnt you be putting your dog and the puppies first???


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

pixieloulou1982 said:


> -tries not to laugh our of sheer confusion-
> 
> I am sorry...you're listening to the stud dog owner who fraudulently messed up this mating by using two dogs?
> 
> I remember my dad when he bred JR's..our dog Mopp....after the litter she went twitchy.... snappy...aloof.... Spaying calmed her down..but that took a fair few months for her hormones to settles and she eventually calmed down.


i no longer believe or trust what the stud dog owner said i was asked if i knew that pregnancy can change a bitches personality i said yes the dog owner told me.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

starshine said:


> Thankyou. i have not decided anything yet because i am not sure she is pregnant but am reading all i can on dog breeding & kc rules.


FGS it has nothing to do with knowing yet. Take action now.

You cant health test after you know. What if they are bad? What will you do then?


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> FGS it has nothing to do with knowing yet. Take action now.
> 
> You cant health test after you know. What if they are bad? What will you do then?


i will cope. Someone said there pups parents were health tested yet her pup was unhealthy. Would it be possible to have the bitch health tested now? As i have said before i have the 5 generation cert of older bitch, this bitch & the stud dog most of them have not been health tested. If she is pregnant or not i will be having her health tested & make sure next stud dog is health tested. i will only be having one set of pups from her.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

starshine said:


> i will cope. Someone said there pups parents were health tested yet her pup was unhealthy. Would it be possible to have the bitch health tested now? As i have said before i have the 5 generation cert of older bitch, this bitch & the stud dog most of them have not been health tested. If she is pregnant or not i will be having her health tested & make sure next stud dog is health tested. i will only be having one set of pups from her.


And how the hell is that going to help?? the damage is now done


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## pixieloulou1982 (Jan 28, 2012)

The stud owner is a liar and a fraudster
You are not ready nor educated enough for a potential litter right now-or financially capable.
Get a mismate
Do more research
Save some money
Do more research
Research studs
Research more studs
save more money
Then breed. 


(can only type with one hand as have dog asleep on the other lol )


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

26 pages . 527 likes and .. we still going round in circles...........


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

starshine said:


> i will cope. Someone said there pups parents were health tested yet her pup was unhealthy. Would it be possible to have the bitch health tested now? As i have said before i have the 5 generation cert of older bitch, this bitch & the stud dog most of them have not been health tested. *If she is pregnant or not i will be having her health tested & make sure next stud dog is health tested*. i will only be having one set of pups from her.


So you are going to breed her again?


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

Izzysmummy said:


> :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:


if You don't like what is being said on this post don't read it or get mad. I am not the only one going round & round in circles. i had pinned all my hopes on 1st bitch getting pregnant thought she was pregnant it was a phantom pregnancy for all i know & condsidering that this 1st dog was sick a few times she might not even be pregnant. Everything said on here is hypothetical but very good advice for next time & for other people to learn from. If she is she will have pups.
At the end of the day it is my responsibility & my decision. People going on at me isn't helping & is carrying on the thread. i thought when i jokingly said i was a troll that people would leave me alone but they haven't.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

CavalierOwner said:


> So you are going to breed her again?


i would like one lot of pups from her if possible.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

dexter said:


> 26 pages . 527 likes and .. we still going round in circles...........


yes some people are more bored than me.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Not bored, im raptured by it


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

starshine said:


> i would like one lot of pups from her if possible.


But if she's pregnant already, I presume that you would keep a pup from this litter seeing as though you are refusing to give her the mismate? Why would you need to breed her again?


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

tashax said:


> Ok OP you are just going round in circles here and it doesnt seem like your taking anything in
> 
> You need to sit down and seriously think what is best for your dog not what is best for you. Yes you want puppies but shouldnt you be putting your dog and the puppies first???


i will sit down & seriously think what to do but thanks to being on this forum & the other one & explaining what i have niavely done i am very worried that people are watching out for me & that if i should decide (not saying i will) register them or put it an add mum is kc registered sire is unknown i will get reported to the kc. Although if this happens the stud dog owner will be found out to. 
i want to concentrate on the bitch & pups which i am going to do but this threat is nagging at me.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> this bitch & the stud dog most of them have not been health tested. If she is pregnant or not i will be having her health tested & make sure next stud dog is health tested


So your bitch and the stud dog are not health tested which means you lied earlier in the thread when asked. Are you going to lie to the puppy buyers too?



> Things are so crooked these days.You can't trust anyone.


There are those who are ethical and honest and do the very best for their dogs and the puppies they breed. You do NOT fall into this category. As someone who seems quite comfortable about being dishonest, I suspect you fall into category you mention above. 



> Surely the important thing is that the pups & bitch are healthy.


Yes, but you haven't done anything to ensure that they will be.



> Kc should be more stringent & tighter as it is there name on the certificate.


Oh right, so you're blaming the KC and happy to take advantage of the fact they are not more stringent & tighter!



> i am not sounding irresponsible but everyone knows when You buy/get a dog it is Your responsibility, You can't go back to the breeder


I'm afraid you ARE being irresponsible, and another thing to aid your learning (which you seem very reluctant to do anyway) - regarding going back to the breeder - breeders have been successfully sued because the puppy they have bought has developed hereditary illnesses that could have been tested for but weren't.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

CavalierOwner said:


> But if she's pregnant already, I presume that you would keep a pup from this litter seeing as though you are refusing to give her the mismate? Why would you need to breed her again?


No if she is pregnant yes i would keep a pup then get her health checked & spayed. i would only have one litter.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

starshine said:


> i will sit down & seriously think what to do but thanks to being on this forum & the other one & explaining what i have niavely done i am very worried that people are watching out for me & that if i should decide (not saying i will) register them or put it an add mum is kc registered sire is unknown i will get reported to the kc. Although if this happens the stud dog owner will be found out to.
> i want to concentrate on the bitch & pups which i am going to do but this threat is nagging at me.


I dont think anyone here is going to go out of their way to do that, plus i dont think you can register pups if you dont know the sire


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> i am very worried that people are watching out for me & that if i should decide (not saying i will) register them or put it an add mum is kc registered sire is unknown i will get reported to the kc.


You should be worried. As you have probably worked out, the ethical breeding community is quite passionate about good breeding practices and will certainly act on this if you do attempt to fraudulently register the pups.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> So your bitch and the stud dog are not health tested which means you lied earlier in the thread when asked. Are you going to lie to the puppy buyers too?
> no i did not lie i understood health test as the annual booster. Now i know the health test that You have to ask vet for according to the breed.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

starshine said:


> No if she is pregnant yes i would keep a pup then get her health checked & spayed. i would only have one litter.


My fully health tested bitch had a litter of 3 from a fully health tested stud on a very short tie....

Go get the mismate, its pointless waiting to see what will happen because then it will leave room for you to use the "abortion is murder" argument.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

You say "People won't leave you alone".

There's a reason for that. This forum is made up of members who care passionately about their dogs and, indeed, all dogs.

There is only ever one reason to breed in my book - to improve. Hopefully, to breed pups better than their parents, but above all, healthy pups.

You have no idea what you've bred. You don't even know who the true father to these pups is or what his state of health is. If you're going to put your bitch through the trauma of pregnancy and birth, you at the very least, have a responsibility to try and ensure that the puppies she is carrying have the very best chance of being healthy.

I don't care which dog you saw, he most certainly is not the Father of these puppies.

Why don't you just admit you have made a huge mistake, this whole mating is flawed and has the potential to be disastrous.

You don't have the right to bring just any puppies into the World because that is what you want.

I personally would have a lot more respect for you if you had the mismate injection done, give yourself and your bitch at least a year and use that time to really educate yourself on what being a CONSCIENTIOUS breeder really is.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

starshine said:


> i will cope. Someone said there pups parents were health tested yet her pup was unhealthy. Would it be possible to have the bitch health tested now? As i have said before i have the 5 generation cert of older bitch, this bitch & the stud dog most of them have not been health tested. If she is pregnant or not i will be having her health tested & make sure next stud dog is health tested. i will only be having one set of pups from her.


 so if you are going ahead with this pregnancy, why would you then health-test the bitch?

I have left quite a lot of information, gratefully received from other members on PRA and FN testing, both of which can be done regardless of whether your bitch is pregnant, in your visitor messages - BUT

What happens if your bitch comes back as a carrier or genetically affected for either of these conditions? you are basically stuck not knowing the status of either stud dog and with a high risk of producing affected pups for both conditions.

You keep harping on about "people buying pups from health-tested parents who haven't been healthy" - sometimes this happen - but the risk is SIGNIFICANTLY reduced of it happening.

People die jumping out of a plane even with a back-up parachute in place - but the likelihood of it happening is SIGNIFICANTLY reduced if you carry a back-up parachute.

There is no difference - people might not die because of a litter, but bitches and their babies can.

Then, there are some conditions which can actually be prevented thanks to the advent of DNA testing - these conditions for Cockers are PRA and FN.

I suspect few vets will hipscore your bitch if she might be pregnant (I could be wrong) - so there is nothing that can be done there if you insist on continuing with any possible pregnancy.

If you DNA test and find your bitch to be a carrier or genetically affected - at THAT point, if you want to think of it in human terms, a mismate WILL be more akin to an abortion.

If you mismate now - there are no viable puppies - then you can health-test your girl, find yourself a decent stud dog owner with a nice well matched dog, and have a litter of puppies with everything in place and your conscience clear - more people will be much happier about helping you.

==========================

As for the KC rules, they won't change, it doesn't matter how much you read them; you cannot legitimately register the litter without DNA testing the pups and registering the pups accordingly.

==============================

Please STOP saying things along the lines of "so and so doesn't test", or "they didn't test, and this happened" - it won't endear you to people who are already frustrated having given many hours of their time to try and help you.

As for trying to stop puppy farmers, believe me, many of us are active in many ways on that front, some visibly, others less so - but I think it is also fair to say that Back Yard Breeders cause nearly as many problems (if not as many or even more) as PF through their continued ability to appear plausible to prospective owners because they live in a typical working / middle class home, conning others into believing their dogs are part of the family and bred as such.

At present, I'm afraid to say, you fall into this category - pick yourself up and do the right thing for the sake of your dog and any babies she might have in the future.

Babies that you can stand back and enjoy knowing that you have done everything in your power to ensure you have bred the healthiest pups possible.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> Stud dog owner says it will calm her down.


And you believe him, why exactly? He has done nothing but lie to you since the beginning. He would not even tell you his dog's kennel name so you could look him up and find he has sired nothing. He has told you that as long as the dog is of the same colouring and temperament, it doesn't matter which dog is the father. Yet you choose to believe him that having a litter will calm your dog down?

I don't understand at all. Are you believing bits of what he says to suit yourself?


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

Ridgielover said:


> Starshine - IF this latest post of yours is true, then you could report the man who owns the dogs to the Kennel Club and to the breed clubs. At least then you'll be doing something positive.
> Can I ask what you intend to do about your girl's possible pregnancy? I assume you intend to continue with it - though it would be more sensible to go to your vet and have the mismate injection. And do you intend to sell the pups as pedigree and/or register them?


i am going to continue with the pregnancy & will most probably not register them but say in add mum is kc registered sire unknown.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> i will sit down & seriously think what to do but thanks to being on this forum & the other one & explaining what i have niavely done i am very worried that people are watching out for me & that if i should decide (not saying i will) register them or put it an add mum is kc registered sire is unknown i will get reported to the kc. Although if this happens the stud dog owner will be found out to.
> i want to concentrate on the bitch & pups which i am going to do but this threat is nagging at me.


There is no threat whatsoever if you don't register the pups. That is the best thing to do, I think.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

starshine said:


> i am going to continue with the pregnancy & will most probably not register them but say in add mum is kc registered sire unknown.


And you will willingly sell the pups knowing full well that they could become ill?? absolutley disgusted in that statement


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

starshine said:


> i will sit down & seriously think what to do but thanks to being on this forum & the other one & explaining what i have niavely done i am very worried that people are watching out for me & that if i should decide (not saying i will) register them or put it an add mum is kc registered sire is unknown i will get reported to the kc. Although if this happens the stud dog owner will be found out to.
> i want to concentrate on the bitch & pups which i am going to do but this threat is nagging at me.


the only thing you seem to be bothered about is getting found out if you register these puppies.

the dogs havent even had the relevant health tests....you are being just as unscrupulous as the stud dog owner, so why not just take her for the mismate jab?...ive had to take one of my bitches for it, as has been said, when given early there are no puppies anyway, just cells, so you neednt feel any guilt, you will be doing the right thing.

.


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## pixieloulou1982 (Jan 28, 2012)

starshine said:


> if You don't like what is being said on this post don't read it or get mad. I am not the only one going round & round in circles. i had pinned all my hopes on 1st bitch getting pregnant thought she was pregnant it was a phantom pregnancy for all i know & condsidering that this 1st dog was sick a few times she might not even be pregnant. Everything said on here is hypothetical but very good advice for next time & for other people to learn from. If she is she will have pups.
> At the end of the day it is my responsibility & my decision. People going on at me isn't helping & is carrying on the thread. i thought when i jokingly said i was a troll that people would leave me alone but they haven't.


If you want the thread to end, stop replying...just walk away...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

starshine said:


> the add where i got the bitch from said she was a show cocker but looking on the net & comparing pics she is a worker. So it was the owner i got her from that got it wrong not me.


im astounded that you dont seem to know anything about cockers and yet youre breeding them, didnt you do any research at all before you bought your dog?


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Time for a mis-mate jab is nearly up


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

starshine said:


> No if she is pregnant yes i would keep a pup then get her health checked & spayed. i would only have one litter.


Talk about closing the stable door when the horse has bolted!


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

> im astounded that you dont seem to know anything about cockers and yet youre breeding them, didnt you do any research at all before you bought your dog?


Sadly so true. Working cockers are not exacly suited to many pet homes, although some can adapt happily, if you wanted a working dog you wouldn't go to a pet home ( breeder) would you.

Sounds sadly like they will be 90% rescue fodder before they are 1


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I believe that STARSHINE will go ahead with this litter, no matter what threat to the bitch, the pups or her own integrity. She asks questions, which get answered over and over and yet she still appears to not understand. I am all for helping those that are naive but I am afraid that the OP just listens to what she wants to hear and disregards/ignores anything she doesn't.

With regard the mismate jabs. I have had to go there. Does that make me a puppy killer - I don't think so. You get it done before the potential pups are nothing more than a few cells. Much rather that than bring a litter into the world that for one reason or another should not be born.

If Starshine had not come up with the all troll drama, I would have helped with the idea of her going ahead with the litter - unregistered (because she clearly wants pups and I don't think there is anything anyone can say that will change her mind on the mismate option) but I am now wondering if the OP has some sort of problem (sorry not meaning to be harsh - I just feel something isn't quite right) and I wonder how the bitch and puppies will fare with somebody whose mind is not quite on the ball. Breeding is challenging at times for those in the know, let alone for somebody who clearly has not researched and is not absorbing information, no matter how many people spell it out.

My post isn't meant to be unkind. I just feel that the bitch is not going to get the care she deserves. Not because the OP is a bad person but she doesn't seem to understand the seriousness of breeding a litter.

Because of the backtracking in the thread, I'm not even sure have of what has been said is even true.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

kodakkuki said:


> are you recieving threatening pms? becauser that is not on and the moderators Will sort those few out for you... in all honesty, i think you would benefit greatly by staying, and so will your girlie and pups.
> there have been a few things you have said that seem to show a need for further research- i dont in any way mean that rudely, we are all still learning after all, and the amount these people have taught me is astounding (especailly a certain lab lady who i'm sure you have noticed).


Do You mean Swarthy? yes it is because of the bitch & pups i am staying on depsite some abuse/threats. Yes no matter how much You read up on breeding it is not until it actually happens that You really learn. i had to rescuitate a kitten that a cat had neglected at birth if it wasn't for books i had read the kitten would be dead.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> but I am now wondering if the OP has some sort of problem (sorry not meaning to be harsh - I just feel something isn't quite right)


I have had that feeling way back in the early part of the thread when some of us were chastised for not being more tolerant.


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

Northern English Cocker Spaniel Rescue Website

This site may just tell you all you need to know about the plight your pups may well end up in. Especially if you take the time to read the forums about the poor dogs that go on to have hereitary issues and issues that can be greatly reduced should you fully health test your girl.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I have had that feeling way back in the early part of the thread when some of us were chastised for not being more tolerant.


TBH I'm getting a bit fed up of people being 'chastised' for not being tolerant, they're almost always proved right in the end


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

starshine said:


> Do You mean Swarthy? yes it is because of the bitch & pups i am staying on depsite some abuse/threats. Yes no matter how much You read up on breeding it is not until it actually happens that You really learn. i had to rescuitate a kitten that a cat had neglected at birth if it wasn't for books i had read the kitten would be dead.


I believe swarthy is helping you in messages.

The question was are you getting threatening messages as no one on this thread has ever threatened you at all. So where are the threats coming from?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> TBH I'm getting a bit fed up of people being 'chastised' for not being tolerant, they're almost always proved right in the end


Yes i have had the same thing about many members here.

I have been told i was too hard on some, nicole being the one that really stands out, yet look what happened there!


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> I believe swarthy is helping you in messages.
> 
> The question was are you getting threatening messages as no one on this thread has ever threatened you at all. So where are the threats coming from?


I took it she means threats to report her to the KC, if she means other kinds of threats I've seen no evidence on this thread


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> You should be worried. As you have probably worked out, the ethical breeding community is quite passionate about good breeding practices and will certainly act on this if you do attempt to fraudulently register the pups.


What about other dogs pups who have been registered as kc with the wrong sires or mother why aren't you after them? if i hadn't come on the forum You wouldn't have known. i have highlighted a situation that is always going on & will continue going on.i don't think i should be threatened like this & if people who are in my position that have been niave & trusted a stud dog owner after reading this post will go underground.
What could the kennel club do to me? As long as the pups are healthy that is the important thing. There are loads of dogs out there who aren't health checked yet are fine.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> if people who are in my position that have been niave & trusted a stud dog owner


Personally, I wouldn't describe what you have done as being naive and trusting - but hey ho!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

starshine said:


> What about other dogs pups who have been registered as kc with the wrong sires or mother why aren't you after them? if i hadn't come on the forum You wouldn't have known. i have highlighted a situation that is always going on & will continue going on.i don't think i should be threatened like this & if people who are in my position that have been niave & trusted a stud dog owner after reading this post will go underground.
> All i wanted was pups to keep one & sell the others, i would have pups vacinated, micro chipped & advice the owners to have them health checked.
> What could the kennel club do to me? As long as the pups are healthy that is the important thing. There are loads of dogs out there who aren't health checked yet are fine.


How do you know they will be though without health testing the vitch and stud dog!

I dont believe for one minute you are mentally retarded, i think you are calling attention to yourself like this, anyone with mental health issues would not call themselves that.

I am through posting here, it is obvious you will do as you want and heed no advice so im not wasting my time tbh!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm sorry, you really need to stop doing that if you want to be taken seriously.

Even if you are partially deaf, I take it you can still read?

You don't need perfect hearing to see what has been said to you throughout this thread.

And why do you keep saying other people break the rules when registering puppies?

You do know, don't you, that two wrongs don't make a right?


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> What about other dogs pups who have been registered as kc with the wrong sires or mother why aren't you after them? if i hadn't come on the forum You wouldn't have known. i have highlighted a situation that is always going on & will continue going on.i don't think i should be threatened like this & if people who are in my position that have been niave & trusted a stud dog owner after reading this post will go underground.
> All i wanted was pups to keep one & sell the others, i would have pups vacinated, micro chipped & advice the owners to have them health checked.
> *What could the kennel club do to me?* As long as the pups are healthy that is the important thing. There are loads of dogs out there who aren't health checked yet are fine.


As long as you don't register the puppies, the kc would not be interested. I am sure you are right that there are many people doing the same thing, and if people know about them they also will get reported.



starshine said:


> What did happen with nicole? Yes i am partially deaf & partly mentally retarded. So You should have patience/understanding. We are not all perfect.


Nicole is a very, very long story and not one we really need to go into now. Suffice it to say that she collected puppies who mysteriously turned up dead (according to her posts) at about a year old, just when she was getting fed up with them. Except they were either rehomed or given up to rescue.

You do not write like someone who is mentally retarded, and since my son does have this condition I shall certainly not be best pleased if this is more sarcasm.

You have been given good options: go ahead with the litter, but do not register; have the mismate; hope she isn't pregnant.

I think that is enough said.


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

tashax said:


> And you will willingly sell the pups knowing full well that they could become ill?? absolutley disgusted in that statement


how do i know they are ill. when You look on the kc health test not all pups are health registered. Most people will only do health tests if they are breeding or have suspicions that the pet might not be well. eg of all the thousands of kc breeders only about 17% are accredited breeders meaning they health test all there pups.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

starshine said:


> how do i know they are ill. when You look on the kc health test not all pups are health registered. Most people will only do health tests if they are breeding or have suspicions that the pet might not be well. eg of all the thousands of kc breeders only about 17% are accredited breeders meaning they health test all there pups.


this is not from someone who is mentally retarded, knowing the percent of health tested dogs!

and they do not just check on a suspicion things may be wrong, look at swarthy for one or shetlandlover who never thought anything was wrong just checked over their dogs to breed well and these are only 2 examples!


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I never once threatened you so thats yet another thing you have wrong.


i never said You did


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

*sigh*

It must be a full moon this week OR maybe its something to do with Friday 13th. Since the forum seems to have had a few odd threads this week.

Anyway OP, I am off out of this thread now because well, people like you are what is wrong with dog breeders, you give the rest of us bad names. I think even if you did health test you would breed her regardless of the results so tbh I don't think you have any interest in the health of any puppies. Which IMO is very selfish of you. But, seems to be the general attitude most back yard breeders take towards their dogs. 

You have been given advice, which no doubt you will ignore.

I am very disgusted by the fact you think as long as you don't register the pups everything's fine.....yeah, I guess hip problems or worse doesn't matter as long as they are not registered. :cursing:

I think people have been more than patient with you whilst you try to dig your head into the sand and pretend that what your doing is acceptable, because others are doing it too. Reminds me of a little kid, wanting things because others have them.

As my mother would say....

If so and so jumped off a bridge would you? 

No, so why should you not health test just because others don't. 

Anyway, you deserve no more of my time since your attitude is no better than the idiot stud dog owners.
Until you accept responsibility I don't think you deserve any responses.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

starshine said:


> how do i know they are ill. when You look on the kc health test not all pups are health registered. Most people will only do health tests if they are breeding or have suspicions that the pet might not be well. eg of all the thousands of kc breeders only about 17% are accredited breeders meaning they health test all there pups.


you dont! thats the point, some genetic conditions they carry and you unless you test for them you wont know!..this is why so many puppies go on to develop awful conditions..its so irresponsible to take chances when there are tests available!...& there are plenty of breeders who arnt ABS members but still do all the relevant tests!

.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

starshine said:


> To have pups & even on the kc register litter form it talks only talks about caesarean births. Was going to wait until i knew for sure if she is pregnant before reading kennel club info. i know it is not an excuse but i thought if all these other people are breeding dogs why shouldn't i.
> i do love my bitches & do care for dogs. i know now i was nieve but don't think threatening me helps. If people didn't come on the forum asking for advice issues like this would not be out in the open but would be hidden away. i have not learnt things & hopefully others will do to & that the forum has done it's job by helping & advicing novice & other breeders.
> In fact if a person has a bitch have 1 litter are they a breeder?


here is your reply to what i said about giving your girl a mismate.

anyway ive had enough now!


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

I too have a child with special needs and to use that as an excuse is unforgivable.

No way on earth would I ever say they are retarded.....disgusting!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Darth said:


> I too have a child with special needs and to use that as an excuse is unforgivable.
> 
> No way on earth would I ever say they are retarded.....disgusting!


Yes, the word is becoming too much in use as an insult, isn't it? Perhaps she would like to tell us she is spastic as well, another word that has become an insult.

Quite frankly my son who does have severe learning difficulties would have more sense than this woman!


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> the only thing you seem to be bothered about is getting found out if you register these puppies.
> 
> the dogs havent even had the relevant health tests....you are being just as unscrupulous as the stud dog owner, so why not just take her for the mismate jab?...ive had to take one of my bitches for it, as has been said, when given early there are no puppies anyway, just cells, so you neednt feel any guilt, you will be doing the right thing.
> 
> .


What about all the other dogs who are fine but not had health tests. Everyone on here is talking about health tests but the vets don't. Will the vet know what health to do?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

starshine said:


> What about all the other dogs who are fine but not had health tests. Everyone on here is talking about health tests but the vets don't. Will the vet know what health to do?


What about them? This thread isn't about all other dogs it's about YOURS and the responsible and right way to breed.

What is it about that that you don't understand?!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

starshine said:


> What about all the other dogs who are fine but not had health tests. Everyone on here is talking about health tests but the vets don't. Will the vet know what health to do?


Why on Earth do you keep trying to justify what you're doing by suggesting that other people have done it before you?

This is about you and what you are doing now.

If I go out and murder someone tomorrow, is it okay because Jack the Ripper did it before me?

Throughout this entire thread, you have tried to blame your medical problems, your hearing difficulties, other people and this forum.

NOT ONCE have you accepted any responsibility yourself. You badly need to grow up.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

Vets simply aren't aware of each breed's health test requirements... they know some and those who are breeders themselves have a good awareness, but really it's up to the person breeding to be responsible and find out....

it's totally irresponsible to breed without at least the recommended tests for each breed and to find out which others may be also needed - no excuse to say (as one breeder did last year when a border collie pup died with TNS) that they 'didn't know' they should know, they should find out, nowadays with the internet it's pretty easy....

I'm not an assured breeder, but I do health test my dogs.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

starshine said:


> What about all the other dogs who are fine but not had health tests. Everyone on here is talking about health tests but the vets don't. Will the vet know what health to do?


would you really want to take a chance with puppies health?.... vets cant be expected to know all the different health tests for all the different breeds!...its the breeders place to do their research and know the relevant tests their breed needs.

.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I didnt say they will be ill i said you would willingly sell them knowing they could be ill. To be blunt here i dont think you have any kind of mental disability it sounds to me like you are either stupid or ignorant


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Oh, and deleting and editing posts won't make any difference. Have you ever heard of screen shots?


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Personally, I wouldn't describe what you have done as being naive and trusting - but hey ho!


How would You describe it then?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, there are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

How many times do you need to be told that what you're doing is wrong?


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

starshine said:


> I have mental health problems & would not joke on such a matter. i understand my options. Thankyou for Your advice.


You have mental health problems yet you can quote a percentage of registered dogs?? and why would you refer to yourself as a 'retard' (i hate that word  )


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Someone who has either mental health problems or is "mentally retarded" would never get them mixed up!

One is totally different to the other.

I don't think you have either.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I think you have messed up somewhere and i now dont know what to believe, do you even have a dog??


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

starshine said:


> How would You describe it then?


I won't bother replying to that, but I will repeat my other post.

If you think deleting and editing your posts will make any difference you are sadly mistaken. The information is already out there and you cannot delete quotes or screen shots of your original posts.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Darth said:


> I don't think you have either.


I don't either, I do however believe the OP does have a mental condition....its one that is very common around these parts......

Ignorance.

Sadly there's no treatment and it's usually more frustrating for those dealing with said individual than it is for the person suffering with it. :wink5:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

starshine said:


> I have mental health problems & would not joke on such a matter. i understand my options. Thankyou for Your advice.


Sorry but you first of all claiming you are 'retarded' (your word not mine) then that you have mental health issues shows that you don't know much about either & is an insult to both those with genuine special needs & those with genuine mental health issues


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

someone said i had mental problems so i said yes i have which by the stupid things i am saying on here i am realising i have. i meant no offence to anyone. This thread has gone crazy & made a life of it's own. Even people who say they will leave me alone to do what i want are still messaging. i have said i will not do mismatch yet people are still tiring themselves by telling me to do it.
Yes some people are more keen on reporting me to the kennel club if i do register them which i probably won't then the health of the pups. As far as i could see apart from the dog being a little sick he seemed healthy & the other dog was healthy. As people have said You can't tell by just looking at a dog if he is healthy.


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## I love springers (Dec 3, 2010)

starshine said:


> i am going to continue with the pregnancy & will most probably not register them but say in add mum is kc registered sire unknown.


You won't be able to advertise them as full breed if you say that the sire is unknown....ut:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> as i could see apart from the dog being a little sick he seemed healthy


The stud dog was sick?

FFS - I give up


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## starshine (Mar 31, 2011)

Its friday the 13th this thread has got ridiculous how can i get You lot of my back. i don't know about You but i have had enough. this isn't fun anymore. I am getting sleepless nights.
If i have insulted anyone reference the mental health/retarded comments i didn't mean to. Someone said i was mentally backward. 
What are screen shots?
i do care for my bitches & will do the very best for them & the pups if there any. Yes it is human nature if someone gets away with something you try to get away with it to. What one person has you also want it. So on that basis i am like a kid. Others are doing well byb so why can't i have a try & for all i
know this 1st dog could be the father & give my bitch healthy pups. Just because parents haven't had a health test does not mean they won't be healthy.
Good bye & thankyou


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Im sorry the stud was sick yet you went ahead with the mating anyway?? thats it now you are either lying to wind people up or you are really really stupid??


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

You're clearly determined to bring these pups into the World, not knowing who their father is, or what inherited conditions they may be afflicted with.

People have invested lots of time and immense patience in trying to make you see what you're doing is wrong and immoral.

It's all fallen on deaf ears, so why don't you stop posting here, (nobody is going to agree with you), and go off and join the band of Backyard Breeders who really don't care and who casually breed litters of pups without any thought, preparation or sense of responsibility to the breed, the pups themselves or the people who may unwittingly buy an unhealthy, unsound dog.

I only hope these poor pups don't pay the price for your selfishness.


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## JenJen22 (Sep 29, 2011)

ive been watching this thread and im just astounded - i dont really know what else to say other than you guys have giving great information and i cant believe the selfishness displayed here with a complete lack of even basic understanding - very very very scary. what a shame on the poor mum and (possible) pups - absolute shame.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm now thinking troll again. Nobody could be this ignorant, surely. Talking about the stud dog being a bit sick now I'm thinking ATTENTION SEEKER - I really hope so because if there is a bitch carrying pups that will be in the OP's care, I dread to think what could go wrong.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

starshine said:


> someone said i had mental problems so i said yes i have which by the stupid things i am saying on here i am realising i have. i meant no offence to anyone. This thread has gone crazy & made a life of it's own. Even people who say they will leave me alone to do what i want are still messaging. i have said i will not do mismatch yet people are still tiring themselves by telling me to do it.
> Yes some people are more keen on reporting me to the kennel club if i do register them which i probably won't then the health of the pups. As far as i could see apart from the dog being a little sick he seemed healthy & the other dog was healthy. As people have said You can't tell by just looking at a dog if he is healthy.


omg you allowed the stud owner to use a sick dog on your bitch??? is this why they used the other stud for the second mating?

what conditions are these poor stud dogs kept in?

,


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> omg you allowed the stud owner to use a sick dog on your bitch??? is this why they used the other stud for the second mating?
> 
> what conditions are these poor stud dogs kept in?
> 
> ,


If what she is saying is true i dread to think about those poor boys


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

The more the OP posts, the more I'm hoping this is all some sort of convoluted idea of a joke


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

starshine said:


> Its friday the 13th this thread has got ridiculous how can i get You lot of my back. i don't know about You but i have had enough. this isn't fun anymore. I am getting sleepless nights.
> If i have insulted anyone reference the mental health/retarded comments i didn't mean to. Someone said i was mentally backward.
> What are screen shots?
> i do care for my bitches & will do the very best for them & the pups if there any. Yes it is human nature if someone gets away with something you try to get away with it to. What one person has you also want it. So on that basis i am like a kid. Others are doing well byb so why can't i have a try & for all i
> ...


Maybe the sleepness nights are because deep down you know you are not doing right by your bitch.

Forget the pups, forget the health tests, forget the KC registration and the idiot stud owner just for a minute and decide whether you, as the "responsible" bitch owner can provide the support, care, common sense and knowledge that you will likely need to successfully rear a litter.

If you come across in real life as you do on here, I don't think anyone will buy a puppy from you, as you do not appear to even know the very basics of breeding.

You will be required to know when your bitch needs assistance, when you should rush her to the vets (if needed), etc., I'm not sure you're up to it. Your bitch and her pups could pay the price with their lives. Could you live with that?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Yes it is human nature if someone gets away with something you try to get away with it to. What one person has you also want it.


No it is not human nature to act in the selfish, childish way you describe - it may be for some lowlifes, but thankfully there are better people around.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

starshine said:


> Its friday the 13th this thread has got ridiculous how can i get You lot of my back. i don't know about You but i have had enough. this isn't fun anymore. I am getting sleepless nights.
> If i have insulted anyone reference the mental health/retarded comments i didn't mean to. Someone said i was mentally backward.
> What are screen shots?
> i do care for my bitches & will do the very best for them & the pups if there any. Yes it is human nature if someone gets away with something you try to get away with it to. What one person has you also want it. So on that basis i am like a kid. Others are doing well byb so why can't i have a try & for all i
> ...


I despair - you WANT to be a BYB  Dear god give me strength :mad2::mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

You are having sleepless nights over the posts on this forum, yet you are going to leave and sleep comfortably KNOWING there is a strong possibility that you could produce sick puppies - you are using the perfect cop-out and taking a big risk - never mind what you could be putting living, breathing creatures through - you would rather bring them into the world even though the risks are high 

Words fail me


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

am i going crazy or are her posts disappearing??


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

You know what I think?

I think you would have used any dog to get your poor bitch pregnant, sick or not. I don't think you care.

Why didn't you just let her out on the street to find her own mate? She would probably have made a far better choice than you did.

I hope you're ashamed, but I suspect you're not.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

tashax said:


> am i going crazy or are her posts disappearing??


no youre not going crazy, i think shes trying to erase the evidence


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

tashax said:


> am i going crazy or are her posts disappearing??


No, some were edited others were deleted - hence my comment about screen shots  I suspect she thinks by removing the incriminating posts no on can do anything but she doesn't realise that screen shots can be done and her quoted posts still stay


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> No, some were edited others were deleted - hence my comment about screen shots  I suspect she thinks by removing the incriminating posts no on can do anything but she doesn't realise that screen shots can be done and her quoted posts still stay


Yes and having made the mistake of posting on the "other" forum - peoples' hackles have been raised - the removal of the thread will do little to soothe them


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

tashax said:


> am i going crazy or are her posts disappearing??


Nope, I've noticed it too, though I'm sure enough people have seen them already so if it's an attempt to save face it's a bit late for that


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> No, some were edited others were deleted - hence my comment about screen shots  I suspect she thinks by removing the incriminating posts no on can do anything but she doesn't realise that screen shots can be done and her quoted posts still stay


I thought it wasn't possible to completely remove posts
but thank heavens for screen shots eh?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> I thought it wasn't possible to completely remove posts
> but thank heavens for screen shots eh?


I thought you could but only if it was the last post on the thread - again, it sounds like I could be wrong


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> I thought it wasn't possible to completely remove posts
> but thank heavens for screen shots eh?


They are still there


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

starshine said:


> What about all the other dogs who are fine but not had health tests. Everyone on here is talking about health tests but the vets don't. Will the vet know what health to do?


Why do you keep asking the same question over and over again? You won't get a different answer by keep asking.



Darth said:


> Someone who has either mental health problems or is "mentally retarded" would never get them mixed up!
> 
> One is totally different to the other.
> 
> I don't think you have either.


Only a very ignorant person would mix up the two, but not a mentally disabled person.



rocco33 said:


> The stud dog was sick?
> 
> FFS - I give up


Probably why he got tired out so quickly.



starshine said:


> Its friday the 13th this thread has got ridiculous how can i get You lot of my back. i don't know about You but i have had enough. this isn't fun anymore. I am getting sleepless nights.
> If i have insulted anyone reference the mental health/retarded comments i didn't mean to. Someone said i was mentally backward.
> What are screen shots?
> i do care for my bitches & will do the very best for them & the pups if there any. Yes it is human nature if someone gets away with something you try to get away with it to. What one person has you also want it. So on that basis i am like a kid. Others are doing well byb so why can't i have a try & for all i
> ...


Go to edit profile, find the thread and unsubscribe from it. If you are getting private messages, delete them or report them if they are malicious.

The more I read of this thread the more I can see that the OP is sitting back and enjoying herself because she has wound everyone up. The original question may well have been genuine, but why keep asking the same thing over and over again, and why keep innanely saying that others do it so it must be ok.

I think everyone should now say a little prayer that this bitch is not pregnant, because basically that is all that can be done.


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

starshine said:


> i will cope. Someone said there pups parents were health tested yet her pup was unhealthy. Would it be possible to have the bitch health tested now? As i have said before i have the 5 generation cert of older bitch, this bitch & the stud dog most of them have not been health tested. If she is pregnant or not i will be having her health tested & make sure next stud dog is health tested. i will only be having one set of pups from her.


You can still get your girl Optigen prcd-pra tested and Antagene FN tested before the pups are born, 'if' your girl comes back clear for both at least you'll know at worst the pups will be carriers.

It's taken years of research and money to make these tests available, to stop litters being born with eye and kidney problems, they are a DNA test which only need to be done the once for the health of any pups the bitch may have


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## Suek (Apr 1, 2008)

It's blooming raining again!!!!


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## wacky69 (Apr 5, 2012)

my head hurts.

It is pretty obv that the OP really doesnt give a sh!t when it comes to her bitch and the 'potential' puppies health or wellbeing. 

To blame a 'mental illness' or 'retardation' (i really hate that word) is just beyond low. There are many members on here who have some sort of mental issue/disability and do not act like this, so please dont try to worm out of things by using this as an excuse. N the comment bout being 'partly deaf' is just funny. Im partly deaf doesnt stop my brain from working, just helps me tune some ppl out lol

Honestly i wouldnt waste anymore time on this thread as ur advice will be greatly appreciated on other threads!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Suek said:


> It's blooming raining again!!!!


Again? It hasn't stopped here since last night. I feel like we are living in that Waterworld film.


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

Last few years we've had "the rainy season" instead of summer, this ones the worst by far!

My car, caravan and roof all have dents and broken tiles from the ice storm we had a couple of weeks ago.

Scary....makes you wonder when it's going to end?

Thank goodness it's this time of year and not winter otherwise all this rain could be snow.

Imagine that!


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

I'm just waiting for my daughter, partner and their baby to arrive with all their washing, they've been to St Ives for the week, so being a soft touch I've offered to wash and dry their clothes!


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

My agility class has been cancelled today because the field is underwater.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

The CLA Game Fair has been cancelled next weekend


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

My girls are off to the Reading Music Festival next month, all camping for 4 days, hope the weather improves, I'm dreading the return of their washing if it doesn't.


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## Suek (Apr 1, 2008)

SharonM said:


> I'm just waiting for my daughter, partner and their baby to arrive with all their washing, they've been to St Ives for the week, so being a soft touch I've offered to wash and dry their clothes!


How silly was that??? ut:

One of my motto's in life is 'never volunteer'  (for stuff that may be detrimental, I volunteer when it comes to dogs )


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

SharonM said:


> My girls are off to the Reading Music Festival next month, all camping for 4 days, hope the weather improves, I'm dreading the return of their washing if it doesn't.


Urg the colour of the bathwater when you get home *shudder*
I am a bit of a Leeds fest veteran went every year from 2001-2007 after awhile the rain just gets funny. Worst was Download one year where is was baking and they turned the water down to a trickle from every tap so the queues were awful and lots of people including my OH got burnt and ill. 
Wish I knew of a smaller camping/music festival that allowed dogs.


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

starshine said:


> Thankyou what programme? To most people including me who has 2 kc registered bitches all that was important was the piece of paper. Although non kc dogs are going as pricey as non kc registered.


The programme was "pedigree dogs exposed" which highlighted the health problems of indiscriminate matings and in-breeding by people who used the KC reg as some sort of guarantee to ask high prices without a care for the poor dogs.

I think your answer proves just exactly where you stand.


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## loganberry (Jul 14, 2012)

starshine said:


> how do i know they are ill. when You look on the kc health test not all pups are health registered. Most people will only do health tests if they are breeding or have suspicions that the pet might not be well. eg of all the thousands of kc breeders only about 17% are accredited breeders meaning they health test all there pups.


I have been reading this thread with absolute disbelief. In fact I have just registered in order that I can reply to starshine. You wont know if the puppies will have health problems, unfortunately it will be the poor puppy buyers that will be the ones that have the heartache and financial outlay due to your selfish uncaring attitude. If one or more of your puppies has a health defect that you could and should have tested for before breeding then yes the puppy owners are within their rights to take legal action against you for recompense of all costs incurred to treat the puppy. The woman who bred my dog lied to me about health test results and it was only after I had purchased him that I discovered those lies. My dog is now 6yrs old and crippled with HD. I took legal action against her and won. She was a byb and I made sure the local authority was made aware of her. If she had had anything of value I would have sent bailiffs in as well. I made it my ambition in life to make her suffer for all the pain my lad has had to endure just because she had a stud dog with HD that she used regardless. I can truthfully state I hate loathe and detest that woman. One of my friends contacted her re a litter of puppies she had and asked her if any puppies she had bred had problems with hips and she lied outright and said how lucky she had been to never have one of her puppies have bad hips Do the right thing and have the mismate injection given to your bitch. It may save you having to deal with a very angry puppy owner later.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

SharonM said:


> I'm just waiting for my daughter, partner and their baby to arrive with all their washing, they've been to St Ives for the week, so being a soft touch I've offered to wash and dry their clothes!


My son came back from holiday with his girlfriend and her family on thursday complete with a case full of washing.

My friend is at latitude festival this weekend in a caravan with god knows how many kids she posted a photo on fb no grass just thick mud everywere. She'll struggle to get the caravan off if it carries on like this.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

pickle said:


> The programme was "pedigree dogs exposed" which highlighted the health problems of indiscriminate matings and in-breeding by people who used the KC reg as some sort of guarantee to ask high prices without a care for the poor dogs.
> 
> I think your answer proves just exactly where you stand.


And highlighted breeders who show their dogs and provide stud services knowing their dogs are carrying serious diseases.


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

I could tell she probably was real when she said AL2 and it was obvious she didn't know what it meant. It is the Breed Record Supplement her girl is registered in and there are very few blue roan working cockers bred so I could find it. What she should do after she's got them registered or not is to ring the KC and tell them that he used his other dog as well and didn't provide DNA tests or explain that both dogs could be fathers .


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

loganberry said:


> I have been reading this thread with absolute disbelief. In fact I have just registered in order that I can reply to starshine. You wont know if the puppies will have health problems, unfortunately it will be the poor puppy buyers that will be the ones that have the heartache and financial outlay due to your selfish uncaring attitude. If one or more of your puppies has a health defect that you could and should have tested for before breeding then yes the puppy owners are within their rights to take legal action against you for recompense of all costs incurred to treat the puppy. The woman who bred my dog lied to me about health test results and it was only after I had purchased him that I discovered those lies. My dog is now 6yrs old and crippled with HD. I took legal action against her and won. She was a byb and I made sure the local authority was made aware of her. If she had had anything of value I would have sent bailiffs in as well. I made it my ambition in life to make her suffer for all the pain my lad has had to endure just because she had a stud dog with HD that she used regardless. I can truthfully state I hate loathe and detest that woman. One of my friends contacted her re a litter of puppies she had and asked her if any puppies she had bred had problems with hips and she lied outright and said how lucky she had been to never have one of her puppies have bad hips Do the right thing and have the mismate injection given to your bitch. It may save you having to deal with a very angry puppy owner later.


Welcome, and sorry to hear of the problems your dog has had.

the OP PM'd me - as part of my responses, I sent them some pages on our Labrador Health website - sadly, I doubt it will have any effect 

But for anyone interested (have some tissues handy)

Labrador Health brings you the story of Charlie, the Bionic Pup

Labrador Health: Your stories


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## Suek (Apr 1, 2008)

I hope this bitch has the mismate jab but I'm not holding my breath, too many ££££ signs are visible, I really despair sometimes :crying::crying:


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

Suek said:


> How silly was that??? ut:
> 
> One of my motto's in life is 'never volunteer'  (for stuff that may be detrimental, I volunteer when it comes to dogs )


I know, but I'm a bit of a soft touch, their son - our first grandchild - is only 10 weeks old, so they have their hands full, so didn't mind really


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

This thread has gone way OT. It would have been a good thread to show people how not to breed and some really good info from Swarthy is now lost in a load of daily chit chat that is nothing to do with breeding or this thread. Perhaps the Mods could take the OT posts out or close 
the thread, before the price of eggs start getting discussed on it.


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

When this thread started people thought she was serious, then she said she was actually a troll and it was all made up, then she changed her mind saying it was true, I think people are just making light hearted comments on a thread that has gone completely mad!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

SharonM said:


> When this thread started people thought she was serious, then she said she was actually a troll and it was all made up, then she changed her mind saying it was true, I think people are just making light hearted comments on a thread that has gone completely mad!


I dont think anything about this thread or indeed any thread in the breeding section should be taken on a light hearted note. I agree that this thread has gone from the sublime to ridiculous on occasion but discussing the weather or the laundry is, in my opinion, wrong. I am all for a laugh and a natter but not in such a serious section of the forum. No offence intended but I check back on the breeding threads and I dont want to waste time reading chit chat. There must be a general section for that


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

At first I thought the OP should just not register the pups.Next time she wanted to mate her bitch she would think about the mistakes she made and then get on the right track.

Now I think she is a very foolish person!
She's blamed the stud dog owner, mental illness, mental retardation and deafness I think I'd sooner read about the weather and chit chat than that load of rubbish.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

enough is enough i always suspected this was troll. thread needs to be closed .


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Darth said:


> At first I thought the OP should just not register the pups.Next time she wanted to mate her bitch she would think about the mistakes she made and then get on the right track.
> 
> Now I think she is a very foolish person!
> She's blamed the stud dog owner, mental illness, mental retardation and deafness I think I'd sooner read about the weather and chit chat than that load of rubbish.


I know where you are coming from but I just don't think that going OT on such a serious subject is right. There must be other places on the forum to discuss the weather

Anyway, I am adding to the OT nature of this thread so I shall bow out. If it gets back to the subject of breeding, I very well may reappear


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

dexter said:


> enough is enough i always suspected this was troll. thread needs to be closed .


They definitely weren't a troll (found them on a bereavement forum) - and I suspect the scenario did happen - there's something of a damage limitation exercise going on now


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