# Advise sought - 4 month old flat coat retriever



## Georgiasmum (Oct 12, 2012)

Hi, 
We are new dog owners and feel that we are struggling a bit...
meg is 4 months old and is a gorgeous friendly outgoing pup...with what seems to be a very sensitive tummy...

She was weaned onto Alpha sporting puppy, and the breeder did say she had had loose stool with her. This continued when we got her...her stools were never formed. She ended up with colitis with blood and mucous in her stool.

She was treated by the vet with metronidazole, a paste to be added to her food and a few tins of prescription dog food for GI probs. We were given a sample pack of Hills science plan dry food. She seemed to get better and was fine on this food. 

I went to get sme more from the vet the following saturday to find it was closed...cue a visit to local pet store. We ended up with Burns puppy chicken with rice. We also decided to use cooked chicken for training treats or her regular food, no other treats or foods permitted.

Meg was fine on this for about 3.5kg and started with loose stool again. Put her on cooked chicken wnd rice to rest her tummy and she was sick. 

Spoke to pet shop who rang Burns up for me who advised she might have an intolerance to chicken.

They advised trying her on the puppy lamb and rice, but pet shop didn't have any. He tried to get me to buy the adult version, showing me Supadog lamb and rice as marketed for sensitive dogs. As this was cheaper I bought a bag of that.

She seemed fine on that, then we wormed her, and she had diarrhoea again. I am putting that down to the worming tablets.

We were running out of Supadog so went to Pets at Home to source another food, looking for a lamb and rice alternative in the puppy version.

I bought 2x 2kg bags JWB lamb rice puppy food for £14... Fine I thought...then I looked at the amount to feed her - 435g a day!!! Horrendously expensive. Although it seems to suit her...

Wondered if anyone had advise a cheaper alternative at all...

Also, she is prone to eating her own poo...is this normal?

Also, from your experience, when do you think she will sleep through the night without needing a wee? She gets let out for a wee/ goes for a short walk at 10/11pm and does have a wee...but is needing a wee at 5.45am...quite often having done her wee when we get downstairs...

Sorry for the many questions, and many thanks!!!


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## Georgiasmum (Oct 12, 2012)

Meant to add she lost weight on the Burns


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Sorry your having problems.

Pups are a pain sometimes with finding a food that suits, but I wouldnt keep changing foods as you will get to the stage where you wont know what suits and what doesnt


I would if she has Colitis, keep her on her original food and try treating the colitis, charcoal is good for it, my last Goldie had it as a pup and I gave him charcoal bonio once daily and that worked.

Good luck.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2012)

Our now 18wk old fox red lab puppy suffered with colitis bouts too , we did the food changes too but found that was wrong to keep doing (didnt know till we were doing it ,) after his last bout 4 week ago we decided to put him on pasta and white fish we kept him on this and we have slowly been introducing the JWB white fish flavoured food (over 4wk gradually and slowly increasing the amount off dry food), he is due to come off the pasta and fish this weekend but so far after doing the change over very slowly we have finally stopped the colitis , i weigh his food out and his daily allowance is split into two equally measured meals , we havent found the cost of JWB expensive but that only in comparision to what the vet treatment was costing us he had four bouts off colitis in a very short time thou . This is a good site and there some very knowledgeable people on here that can advise you better but just wanted to let you know what we did it a nightmare when colitis flares up , and i hope you get yours resolved , it was on here that i got the advice to sort our wee lad out


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Hi I too have a flatcoat who is now 20 months old and like you had great problems with his diet from day 1!!! I too came on to Pet Forums asking for advice about his diet. I have found the best food for him is Fish4dogs or Working HPR Fish and Potato(Working Dog Food WorkingHPRs | Quality dog food for working gundogs). Anything else gives him the runs and terrible flatulence  This food is all he has apart from the odd bit of peanut butter smeared in a toy or an occasional raw egg (as training treats I have used small amounts of cheese or ham) as if he has anything else he ends up with loose stools. I have found anything with wheat or rice in it ( eg Burns) just passes straight through him. I am wondering whether this is commom in this breed as I have never had this problem with any other breed I have owned  I have to be so careful about what he eats eg if we walk along the river and someone has thrown bread for the birds and he eats it then next day he has the squits To this day he remains very slim (29kg) but is very active and appears healthy in other ways.


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

Now you have found a kibble that suits its best to stick with it rather than keep changing as the changing so often will cause upset tums in pups

As for waking early.....my adult dogs and 5month old pup will often wake around that time for a wee and go back and settle again after their wee so quite normal to wake around that time for pups.

Pups quite often eat their own poo but do eventully grow out of it....the secret is to pick up as soon as its done

Good luck with pup I love flat coats...beautiful dogs


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Georgiasmum said:


> Hi,
> We are new dog owners and feel that we are struggling a bit...
> meg is 4 months old and is a gorgeous friendly outgoing pup...with what seems to be a very sensitive tummy...
> 
> ...


She's been on a lot of different foods at 4 months of age, what does the breeder say?

Have you had tests done to try and find out if she's got giardia or any underlying infection?

I would stop swapping foods, have her tested, not sure if that will involve stool samples, but chat with the vet, and go from there.

JWB isn't that expensive, it's about average for an ok quality food, google Simpsons premium, they are a pretty good quality kibble for a reasonable price. And yes, it is conceivable that if her system isn't sorted out she will need a wee at 5.45am, I'm up at 5am(ish) with my four every day pretty much, I have a five month old Labrador pup, she doesn't wake me but the others do, so don't expect her to grow out of it any time soon. One of the joys of dog ownership!!


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Would just add that I too went through the cycle of worming, chicken & rice etc only to find my flatcoat was no better. The rice was being pooed out undigested and there were all little grains of it in the runs. That's when i tried the potato based foods and hey presto I now have a healthy dog (albeit with a digestive system that is intolerant of a lot of things!)


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## Georgiasmum (Oct 12, 2012)

Many thanks for your replies. It certainly is a mine field and I appreciate that every dog is different. Just hate to think we are missing something that would make it better! 

I appreciate that owning a dog is 100% commitment . I was up at 2am and 6am for toilet run ... Just hoping thus gets less frequent!  

I did discuss with the breeder who hasn't experienced probs with any of her flatties. 

We are due to get a daschund in a few weeks too! Hopefully this one will have a better tummy!!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Georgiasmum said:


> Meant to add she lost weight on the Burns


Practically everyone I know who's fed Burns has experienced this.

If you're going to stick with JWB then you'll probably find that buying a 15kg bag works out cheaper than keep buying the small bags. 15kg lasts around 6 weeks here when I have to feed kibble so it doesn't work out too bad in the long run, less than £10 a week.


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

I would be a little concerned that the breeder let the pup go knowing it had had a colitis type diarrhoea in the home environment too!? I think I would have the vet do a feacal lab test just to rule out giardia, campylobacter or parasites as sleeping lion suggests. 

As for diet I would try to stick with one food now you have found one that suits her tummy, I don't think JWB is an expensive food to be honest, it's one of the better kibbles available. 

Knowing what I know now about raw food I would change any new pup into my household straight onto raw but of this isn't an option for you then I would stick with the JWB and if the diarrhoea starts again have a feacal sample tested. Campylobacter and giardia both settle down for a few days producing solid poops, then flare up again, the pattern repeats until the Protozoa are killed off usually with an antibiotic called metronidazole. X 

Would love to see photos of your pup as I love flat coats! 

Hope all tummy trouble settles soon. X X 

As for early rising my 2 year old goes to bed around 10-11pm and still 'knocks' on the door to go out at 6am 7 days a week!! ... Cheeky boy, has a wee, breakfast then goes back to sleep!! :001_tt2:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'll be very honest with you, but if you'd come to me for a pup (theoretically) and you'd said it was your intention to add to the family with another pup at six months of age, I'd have turned you away. I don't know if you did tell the breeder of your flatcoat that, but it's generally not a good idea to have two youngsters on at the same time, the recommended minimum is about 12 months of age, and that's dependent on the level of control and character of the pup you already have. 

I would seriously consider if you think you'll be able to cope with another pup, if your current girl isn't sorted out by the time the new pup arrives, you could end up with two poorly pups and if they aren't trained separately you may end up with pups that have dodgy tums that aren't listening to you, but relying on each other. 

Sorry to sound negative, but just wanted to give you an honest opinion, I count myself as slightly experienced, my OH has over 20 working dogs I help look after, I've currently got four bitches, the youngest is a pup I bred, and there is an 8 month gap between her and the next one, and for her breed, she is a very laid back girl, so the younger pup isn't as difficult as it could be. They are all very fit and no problems with poops etc, although some days they fart for England


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Choose and stick with a food. Changes will unsettle her tummy. Pick up poo immediately: I used to wait while the pups did it then picked it up: they were awful poo eaters!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Georgiasmum said:


> Hi,
> We are new dog owners and feel that we are struggling a bit...
> meg is 4 months old and is a gorgeous friendly outgoing pup...with what seems to be a very sensitive tummy...
> 
> ...


As the breeder says she had sloopy poops when she was with them and its continued ever since and ended up with colitis, personally I would be wondering if there is an underlying problem.

Metronidazole is an antibiotic but only treats certain types of bacteria its also used to treat giardia protozoan parasites and as it has anti inflammatory effects too its often used for collitis. Im guessing the paste was likely pro texin prokolin which is natural and contains pectin koalin and a pro and prebiotic to replace the good gut bacteria needed for a health digestion.
I know she was on precription diet as well at the time and together with the meds it did work, but Im also wondering if she does have giardia or coccidia another protozoan parasite or a persistent bacterial infection that may just have been dampened down either a protozoan parasite or the bacteria and its re-occured. Maybe she had the wrong antibiotics and it didnt get rid of it completely or not a long enough course. Certainly chopping and changing food also often doesnt help either usually you have to try a food for 4 even six weeks. If she has an underlying problem still you could be going on for ever trying different foods. If she poo eats she could well be re-infecting herself.

Personally I would be asking the vet to do a 3 day fecal test, 3 samples are taken on 3 consequetive days less chance of missing anything that way. That would find things like worms, protozoan parasites like giardia and coccidia, persistent bacterial infections like campylobacter and things like systemic yeast overgrowth. It could well be something like that thats causing it and without the correct treatment and course you wont get too the bottom of the problem. All of the above can be common in pups and as she has had it from the start if they are on the breeders property she could well have picked it up there. It would certainly be a good place to start.


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## Georgiasmum (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks...thought I would add an update...

Altho we had stuck to one food, her stool was very soft ...asked vet nurse for diet advice...back on the prescription ID dry food 100% for 3 days to rest her tum and then slowly introduce a brand we intend to stick with over 7 days.

I also mentioned that she had diarrhoea after her last worming dose 2 weeks ago, milbemax and we were given Panacur instead. She had her second dose (of three) yesterday and last night vomited x3 frothy phlegm/bile with dead worms in...

I took it to the vets to ask for advice - apparently the size of the worms indicate she has a heavy worm burden...said to bring her back in two weeks to get her checked over.

Feel really bad - do you think that because she had the runs after her last worming dose this has caused the worms to grow? They were about 5 inches long? 

Is it possible that she got the worms from sheep poo? 

The ID dog food for her weight/ age etc says she can have 205g/ 24 hr...on regular food the amount varies from 450-600g, so I asked the vet if she could have more as she is clearly hungry. It was agreed it was fine to give her more.

Thanks for reading


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Georgiasmum said:


> Thanks...thought I would add an update...
> 
> Altho we had stuck to one food, her stool was very soft ...asked vet nurse for diet advice...back on the prescription ID dry food 100% for 3 days to rest her tum and then slowly introduce a brand we intend to stick with over 7 days.
> 
> ...


As she had sloopy poops at the breeders and since you got her, and considering they were adult worms and have to go through several life stages before they get to adult, it sounds like she has possibly had worms from birth.
Ask your vet but I would assume they are likely roundworms Toxacara Canis.
which are the most common in pups.

If the Mum has worms present they can be passed on to the pups via the placenta and as larvae through the milk. Even if the mother has been wormed there can be dormant ones present, that get awakened in pregnancy and then get passed on.

Pups should be wormed starting at 2 weeks old although some breeders prefer to wait a little later until weaning, they should then continue to be wormed every 2/3 weeks until 12 weeks old, then monthly up to 6months and from then on every 3/4 months like adults. This to make sure that all the life stages and the worms are completely eradicated. The other way pups/dogs can get infected is by ingesting eggs passed out in the faeces of infected dogs that can live for long periods in the environment.

Ive always used the Panacur paste for pups and found it excellent its quite gentle as well. I think if I remember rightly the panacur has to be used again in 2/3 weeks, if it was me I would be keeping up the panacur worming programme to make sure they have really been gotten rid of and then keep up a regular programme.

This has likely been your problem all along as in young animals worms can cause loose sloppy stools diarrhoea and even vomitting. Panacur will also do Giardia protozoan parasites too, but you have to do a longer course then just for worming to eradicate that. if her problems continue in spite of the worming programme which hopefully it wont and it is just worms, then I would speak to your vet about a 3 day fecal test just to make sure they have been gotten rid of and there are no other parasites or anything else present.


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## Georgiasmum (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks so much, funnily enough the vet nurse we saw earlier this week has just rung me - the receptionist told her that I had been in - she said the same thing, adult roundworm and likely that's been the problem all along...

She also said to reworm with Panacur in 2-3 weeks.

Feel so much happier and reassured that they taking it serious enough to ring me

I'd just returned from a short walk and she had done a poo while we were out, couldn't see any worms in it, and vet nurse said roundworm more likely to be vomited than passed in stool. 

Poor meg...

The breeder said meg had been wormed a few times before we got her and we have wormed her religiously each 4 weeks since...I'm not sure what brand the breeder used but Milbemax obviously doesn't suit Meg.

Thanks ... I'll update in due course!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Georgiasmum said:


> Thanks so much, funnily enough the vet nurse we saw earlier this week has just rung me - the receptionist told her that I had been in - she said the same thing, adult roundworm and likely that's been the problem all along...
> 
> She also said to reworm with Panacur in 2-3 weeks.
> 
> ...


One of mine as a pup had them the same. He swallowed an adult sock, and as he wouldnt have likely passed it I had to rush him to the vets for an injection so that he vomitted the sock up, with the sock came live worms.
I had to worm him the next day (just in case he vomitted again after the injection and it was brought up) for the next 3 maybe more poops there were dead and dying worms in the poop, so if you do see any dont panic it shows its working.


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## Georgiasmum (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks. I'll bear that in mind


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## Georgiasmum (Oct 12, 2012)

She slept until almost 7 this morning - for for first time - wonder if it because she not as unsettled/ hungry, or maybe it's a pure coincidence!

No more vomit tho...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I wish my lot would sleep till 7am, we're usually up about 5am, they get used to it during the week when I get up early for work. 

Any pics of the flatcoat? My girl's 16 months old now, will get setting off later today as I'm travelling down past Birmingham to a show.


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