# The NOT so positive training methods......



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

..... your opinions please. PM if you prefer. :huh:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Depends on what sort I suppose. I always try to use positive methods with both my dogs but have used what is considered an aversive with roxy recently & it has been effective.

Roxy is very reactive to other dogs & kicks off when she see one. We have had over a year (& a couple of behaviourists) trying (unsuccessfully) to reduce this. 

I have gotten her interested in a toy that could be used as a distraction (it worked occassionally), used the 'watch me' command, 'look at that', rewarded her when she was calm, tried to get her to look at me, etc but when she went in to Mrs Nutcase mode she was unresponsive to anything. 

As the whining & lunging increased she used to hype herself up even more so I decided to try another trainer & a differing approach. After a couple of 1-2-1 with the new trainer we walked in to the training area & Roxy saw the trainers two dogs sitting, just as she went to kick off the trainer shook a bottle of stones really hard & Roxy stoped, shut up, sat down & looked at me. 

We continued the class & never used the noise again as me saying 'no' each time she whined stopped her. After a few mins she was walking with the two dogs & played with them - no problems.

She hasn't kicked off in any class since despite there being 15 dogs, this was something I could never have considered a few months ago.

Tbh I don't care if people think this method is cruel & may scare Roxy - I don't & I know it hasn't. I couldn't let her carry on the way she was previously & I had tried EVERYTHING for a long enough period.

I know that different dogs react differently to things so this would not have the best approach for another dog but simply rewarding Roxy for being calm or trying a distraction didn't work for her either.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Really interesting thanks for being so honest.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Generally I would always go for the positive reinforcement / negative punishment options - but I am only human!!

The controversial "not so positive methods" I least object to are:

Non-reward markers (I'm actually quite fond of these, think they have heaps of potential especially once the marker has been well generalised). 

Water /noise as interuptors - but only on rare occassions (so they are novel) and not on dogs known to be bothered by them!

I wouldn't squirt water at a dog that hates getting wet, or squirt near eyes etc. and I wouldn't use a noise like a rattle can or pet corrector on a noise-sensitive dog. But an unusual noise, squirt of water, or even a soft thrown object (like a tea towel) can be enough to break the dogs focus without actually being aversive. No point using them more than once or twice tho as its the novelty that works (unless it is actually an aversive for the individual dog, in which case I wouldn't use it).

I also have no problem with safe deterrents like bitter apple and lick strips.

I don't believe there is ever an excuse for causing pain or fear, so any methods causing those is out afaic. I'm also against citronella collars because smell lingers - so the dog is punished long after the unwanted behaviour stops.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2012)

Well... you asked for opinions, so here goes, hopefully I don't offend!

I personally think there is never any reason to use fear, pain, or the threat there of to influence a dog. I think if you are resorting to these tactics you are using your brawn instead of your brain and that path always leads to roadblocks sooner or later. 

Does that mean I've never used fear or pain with my guys? Nope. I'm not that good.  But when I do, I try very hard to rehash and re-evaluate where *I* went wrong (it is always the fault of the human) so that I don't make the same mistake twice.

I am a big believer in the power of rewards. I have yet to meet a dog who won't work for some reward - the trick is figuring out how to motivate that dog and condition the dog to a reward that is practical to you.

There is a study where a group of Belgian Malinois were measured for cortisol levels using collar pops, shock collars and withholding of a conditioned reward (tug toy and/or bite sleeve). They found with these high drive dogs that the cortisol levels spiked highest when the reward was withheld. The compulsion trainers use this as a "see, our method is 'kinder' to the dog!" Me? I say that just proves the power of a reward. If you have something as powerful as a reward, what do you need something aversive for?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Colette said:


> Generally I would always go for the positive reinforcement / negative punishment options - but I am only human!!
> 
> The controversial "not so positive methods" I least object to are:
> 
> ...


I agree with you & initially wouldn't have considered a noise aversive with Roxy at first as she was quite a stressed dog when she came to live with us. Now she is a different dog, alot more confident, lots of eye contact, no signs of stress so I had to consider something else to try & address this problem.

So far I have (or rather the trainer) has used this once as I would not want to over use this but I have learnt to stop the behaviour from starting in the first place by being more authoritative straight away. She is alot calmer now, can interact with other dogs & enjoys being around them so I don't want her behaviour to stop her from meeting new dogs & getting herself too worked up.

I also really like the idea of a no reward marker & think this would be beneficial to use, I think it was in a Jean Donaldosn book I read about this & I would like to know who uses this & how to effectively.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I use "uh uh" to let my dog know something won't be rewarded at this time. I know some dislike it but I found it very handy with Rupert who would otherwise try the same behaviour multiple times when I was trying to shape something else with him. And going through a ton of tricks, each one repeated a few times, takes a while. Much easier to simply say "no I'm not looking for that right now" and move on 

I also use a sharp "Ah!" to interrupt unwanted behaviour so that I can redirect to something appropriate. Preferably before they start. With Spencer that usually involves stopping him picking up a shoe, book, tissue, pair of jeans, sock or whatever and offering him a toy instead. With Rupert it became a "no, don't do that, here do this" sort of thing. He'd stop whatever he was doing or about to do and look at me to see what he should do.

And sometimes he gets a "Spencer I am going to kick your bloody head in!" when I've taken about a million things off him, made sure there's nothing lying around and he somehow finds something I've missed  Empty threat of course but hardly positive


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2012)

My personal issue with noise aversives is that our dogs live with two young kids in a very busy, active household. I do NOT want them to react to startling noises etc. I do not want them to see crashes and clattering as something to avoid or escape from, rather I want them to be confident and move on from stuff like that. To me it seems very confusing to basically tell the dog "I want you to scare and react to this can of pennies, but for everything else I want you to be confident and not reactive to this sort of thing."


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm not that familiar with different methods to be able to give an extensive opinion, but some of the methods people use still shock me. I was at a bigger pet store than our local pet stores the other month and noticed an "electrical training kit" as in, an electric collar and all that. I thought that only existed in bad movies and couldn't believe they would actually supply and someone would actually buy those.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> My personal issue with noise aversives is that our dogs live with two young kids in a very busy, active household. I do NOT want them to react to startling noises etc. I do not want them to see crashes and clattering as something to avoid or escape from, rather I want them to be confident and move on from stuff like that. *To me it seems very confusing to basically tell the dog "I want you to scare and react to this can of pennies,* but for everything else I want you to be confident and not reactive to this sort of thing."


I can honestly say that that's not at all how I look at it. When Roxy heard the noise, she stoped, sat down then looked at me as it had interrupted her behaviour & she was confused about his. At no point did she look or act scared.

As soon as she looked at me she got a 'good girl' & a treat. If she had of been scared she would not have eaten the treat.

We then did a few other exercises & the trainers dogs cam eover & sat nearby. Roxy & I walked near then gradually got closer, all the time she was rewarded. This has never, ever been possible in the past as she has immediately kicked off if we ever got in acloser proximity to other dogs (when she was leashed).

By interrupting her behaviour (as I do when I clap my hands when my dogs are playing a bit too roughly & choose to ignore 'enough') I can regain her focus.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Colette said:


> I wouldn't squirt water at a dog that hates getting wet, or squirt near eyes etc. and I wouldn't use a noise like a rattle can or pet corrector on a noise-sensitive dog. But an unusual noise, squirt of water, or even a soft thrown object (like a tea towel) can be enough to break the dogs focus without actually being aversive. No point using them more than once or twice tho as its the novelty that works (unless it is actually an aversive for the individual dog, in which case I wouldn't use it).


Surely this would then defeat all point of an aversive- no point in using something that a dog does not react to, as it will not have an effect!


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> I can honestly say that that's not at all how I look at it. When Roxy heard the noise, she stoped, sat down then looked at me as it had interrupted her behaviour & she was confused about his. At no point did she look or act scared.
> 
> As soon as she looked at me she got a 'good girl' & a treat. If she had of been scared she would not have eaten the treat.
> 
> ...


Well, let me ask you this. What was the point of the can of pennies? Was it to startle her so as to interrupt the behavior? If so, what are you going to do the next time you have to interrupt a behavior? How many repetitions of the can of pennies to you think it will take before she starts habituating to the can of pennies? Once she habituates to the can of pennies, then what will you use to interrupt unwanted behavior?

Now, I understand, with your dog there was the one thing that is now resolved, so you're done with the pennies. But many dogs don't respond to the pennies. Then what? How far do you escalate?


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

That is precisely my point - although I obviously didn't explain it very well! Will try again lol...

An aversive is something the dog finds unpleasent - so using a pet corrector on a noise sensitive dog would cause that dog fear, thus you would be using an aversive.

An interuptor is just that - something that interupts a behaviour / distracts the dog from whatever its focused on etc. It isn't necessarily an aversive - IMO it should be neutral; in fact you can even teach "positive interuptors".
The neutral interuptor does NOT punish the behaviour, it simply gets the focus back so that you can redirect the behaviour, give a cue, etc.

For example - Solo will usually respond to his name by looking at you. i.e. you say his name to get his attention. However, if he is engrosed in something (that he shouldn't be doing) calling his name will have no effect - he just ignores it. Make a strange (i.e. novel) noise and he will look round sharply to see what it was. Something as simple as blowing a raspberry will do.
Same with water. He isn't afraid of it - but if he feels an unexpected squirt of water he will look round like WTF? 

No fear involved, just surprise and / or distraction. After only one or two repetitions the animal becomes accustomed to it - so of course it is useless as a punisher and would be useless if used frequently.

Hope that makes sense 

ETA - to Ouesi:

IMO the interuptor shouldn't need to be used repeatedly. Its only part of a method - to interupt the behaviour - and is used alongside the other methods (like counter conditioning or desensitisation).
Even if you do need to interupt at a later date, it isn't an issue of "escalating" (which shouldn't even be possible if you choose neutral interuptors rather than aversives) just a case of finding something novel. So you may use a rattle can in this case, next time blow a raspberry, next time toss a teatowel at the dog, next time blow on him, or whatever. As said above, the purpose is novelty - not fear.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Surely this would then defeat all point of an aversive- no point in using something that a dog does not react to, as it will not have an effect!


If the dog doesn't react at all then no, it won't have an effect. But things can break the dogs focus or interrupt behaviour without being an aversive. Me opening the fridge brings Spen running no matter what he's doing :lol:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Well, let me ask you this. What was the point of the can of pennies? Was it to startle her so as to interrupt the behavior? If so, what are you going to do the next time you have to interrupt a behavior? How many repetitions of the can of pennies to you think it will take before she starts habituating to the can of pennies? Once she habituates to the can of pennies, then what will you use to interrupt unwanted behavior?
> 
> Now, I understand, with your dog there was the one thing that is now resolved, so you're done with the pennies. But many dogs don't respond to the pennies. Then what? How far do you escalate?


It was to interrupt her behaviour & as I have said this was used once a couple of weeks ago. I wouldn't hesitate to use this again if I felt it was necessary & she kicked off again. I think to use this as an interrupter causes her less stress & she isn't then all hyoer from barking & lunging at the dog she has seen.

The point isn't to use the noise as a continuing training aid but more to break a habit. Up until now every time she has seen another dog (when leashed) she kicks off, it's become a learned response.

When we first got her she used to attack my other dog when he was asleep, we didn't understand why as she was fine with him in the day (we saw the behaviorist about this aswell) so we had to stop this from becoming a habit of her attacking Toby every evening by leashing her.

She was leashed every evening for about a month (whilst continuing with training & playing intervals) as we needed to stop this becoming a regular occurrence, I think it's similar to what I've done with the noise tbh.

I do find it a bit irritating that people are condemened for using certain methods despite trying a whole range of training techniques, etc prior to respoting to those considered more aversive.

I have worked with Roxy for over a year tackling lots of problems despite being a very inexperienced dog owner & I would never give up on her (although i have felt like it at times!) & we still have a lot to deal with. I can't have another year of her stil reacting like this for her sake as well as mine.

She has missed out on things already & I don't want this to continue so if shaking a bottle & making her shut up once has helped then I would definitley do it again. These things don't have to escalate in severity at all, this is merley a different approach I have tried


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Colette said:


> That is precisely my point - although I obviously didn't explain it very well! Will try again lol...
> 
> An aversive is something the dog finds unpleasent - so using a pet corrector on a noise sensitive dog would cause that dog fear, thus you would be using an aversive.
> 
> ...


Yeah makes perfect sense, however I guess the distractor would be very different for different dogs. I believe a bomb could go off when Dex is doing his "trying to get to another dog act" and he wouldnt look away. Blowing a raspberry certainly wouldnt get his attention


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

It seems as if one way or another every discussion of different training methods must end in someone telling someone else what they are doing is wrong in one way on another. Lexiedhb thanks for sharing your story and I think it's great you've finally achieved what you wanted in your training. As long as it's working now and your dog does not show any signs of fear or disturbance, I think it's fair you keep on what you're doing and no one should judge for it as every dog is different and I'm sure you know your dog well and wish all the best for her


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

Tummels first owners used to squirt him in the face with water as a punishment....as a result when we got him he would start screaming at the sound of waves, wet himself if he got within 1m of water(puddles/river/sea etc etc) and would only drink out of a large, shallow bowl....it took him 3 months to be brave enough to get his feet wet, wouldn't consider going further thn his ankles until he hit 10 months and even now at 21 months he refuses to go in past the bottom of his chest(he has been swimming but through falling in...not deliberately). I would never use this technique in training after seeing how damaging it's been for my poor pup.

I use "AH-AH" when he's doing something naughty and he stops, i don't think i've been harsh at all, i also wouldn't like to cause pain to my dog but if he's scared of something that therefore benefits him(eg Tummel won't cross roads without me as he's frightened of them) then i don't really see a problem(he came to us terrified of traffic BTW...i trained him to be ok but he still wouldn't cross a road without me).


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ballybee said:


> Tummels first owners used to squirt him in the face with water as a punishment....as a result when we got him he would start screaming at the sound of waves, wet himself if he got within 1m of water(puddles/river/sea etc etc) and would only drink out of a large, shallow bowl....it took him 3 months to be brave enough to get his feet wet, wouldn't consider going further thn his ankles until he hit 10 months and even now at 21 months he refuses to go in past the bottom of his chest(he has been swimming but through falling in...not deliberately). I would never use this technique in training after seeing how damaging it's been for my poor pup.
> 
> I use "AH-AH" when he's doing something naughty and he stops, i don't think i've been harsh at all, i also wouldn't like to cause pain to my dog but if he's scared of something that therefore benefits him(eg Tummel won't cross roads without me as he's frightened of them) then i don't really see a problem(he came to us terrified of traffic BTW...i trained him to be ok but he still wouldn't cross a road without me).


But actually you dont know it was being squirted in the face that caused this. A collegue has a 15 month old Vizsla who will not go near water for love nor money. It also rolls on its back and pees itself if it is shouted at, has to pass to close to water, another dog tells it off, plus a whole host of other things. This dog has been with her since it was 7 weeks old, and has never been hit, has rarely been shouted at- it is just his personality, unless of course the reputable breeder she got it off beats her young pups.

I am also not talking about average behaviour, (not listeneing due to sniffing etc) but seriously OTT behaviour.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

My issue with the 'not so positive methods' is when people take them at a proximate level, i.e. they look at the immediate results (a few mins after, a few days after, even a few weeks after) and conclude that they are better for the dog...but without ever even researching why such a reaction appears from certain training methods.

Using aversives as punishments, IMO, only serves to suppress a behaviour. I know this is almost a cliche of the rewards-based trainer, but if you look at the literature in behavioural and psychological sciences, there's more than enough evidence to demonstrate aversives causes distress, which in turn stops the efficient control of the parasympathetic nervous system to inhibit the level of stress hormones etc., leading to a dog who is flooded, shut down, and suppressed, in many cases causing behavioural fallout. 

Another issue is people seeing what they want to see. So, someone uses an aversive themselves and concludes it's horrible on the dog. However, when a 'trainer' comes round and uses aversives (a la Millan, for example), then any reduction in a behaviour, regardless of any behavioural fallout, is taken as improvement and is sanctioned by the owners. Ludicrous. 

By all means, I think harsher more traditional methods will work on dogs, with some not experience fallout, but the vast majority will show negative effects. 

As a side point, when talking about training methods I would argue to use terms like 'rewards-based' or 'modern' or 'clicker training' etc., than positive or positive reinforcement techniques. Purely because some of the most modern and rewards-based methods aren't positive reinforcement techniques, such as Grisha Stewart's BAT training, which is based around negative reinforcement! Just a thing to remember when defending modern training methods.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I was told by my last behaviourist, (before being told that my dog had formed an association with the training field and a high state of arousal, and as such I probably shouldnt go anymore) that BAT training is nothing new, just re hashed old theories. so would be uninclined to call it modern.

I think I could click and treat my dog for the next 10 years and his reaction may be reduced (probably due to age), but not "fixed". Every "reward based" trainer has told me the same thing- click treat click treat- NONE (have seen 4 now) have a plan B.


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

Well, I'm probably going to get lambasted for this...but I flick a (dry) tea-towel at Boo's bum when she jumps up to explore kitchen counters. If I have a newspaper to hand I will also use this to tap her on the backside when she misbehaves. Neither of these tactics cause pain but they do startle her. If I see her doing something wrong in the garden (like digging up the new hedging), I tap on the window with my ring and that also gives her a surprise. All actions are combined with a low-tone 'Noooooo!' or 'bad dog'. If she continues to ignore me or chases the cat, she gets time-out in her crate. I did buy a waterpistol to stop her jumping up in the kitchen because I am scared she will burn herself on the cooker but I haven't used it yet & doubt I will because I do think she would perceive that as an 'assault/attack' from a distance. If she doesn't learn tho, I may have to reconsider in the interests of her own safety. Also, if she jumps up on me she also gets shoved away quite brusquely. Otherwise we are positive reinforcement all the way...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> My issue with the 'not so positive methods' is when people take them at a proximate level, i.e. they look at the immediate results (a few mins after, a few days after, even a few weeks after) and conclude that they are better for the dog...but without ever even researching why such a reaction appears from certain training methods.
> 
> Using aversives as punishments, IMO, only *serves to suppress a behaviour*. I know this is almost a cliche of the rewards-based trainer, but if you look at the literature in behavioural and psychological sciences, there's more than enough evidence to demonstrate aversives causes distress, which in turn stops the efficient control of the parasympathetic nervous system to inhibit the level of stress hormones etc., leading to a dog who is flooded, shut down, and suppressed, in many cases causing behavioural fallout.
> 
> ...


Believe me I have read alot, it's gotten to the stage where I didn't read anything else - I don't want to read about dog behaviour all the time 

I also researched the behaviorists/trainers beforehand & always questioned their techniques. the person we see now I don't agree with some of his theories tbh but he does have a good rapport with the dogs (Roxy really likes him) & his advice has worked.

I have highlighted one section as I used to think this with Roxy when she started her whining which then progrssed to barking which then went in to full 'kick off' mode. I didn't want to supress a behaviour but in some ways if I do this immediately she starts then it doesn't escalate, she doesn't hype herself up & become uncontrollable but she is definitely not in 'shutdown mode'

IMO it's a bit like when she starts to chase, if she goes in to a chase mode where she is only focussed on the running animal then I haven't got a hope of recalling her (although we do have the odd success ) but if I stop her as soon as she shows the flicker of interest then I can regain her focus & stop the chase.

Since the noise interrupter was used there hasn't been any fallout, I think there was more previosuly by letting her get herself worked up. We have been woprking on this for over a year so it's not as if I wanted a quick fix - how long was I supposed to continue if everything I tried wasn't working?

I didn't want to go through a list of trainers as I wanted conistency & I also didn't want to constantly put Roxy through the stress of this either.



Lexiedhb said:


> I was told by my last behaviourist, (before being told that my dog had formed an association with the training field and a high state of arousal, and as such I probably shouldnt go anymore) that BAT training is nothing new, just re hashed old theories. so would be uninclined to call it modern.
> 
> *I think I could click and treat my dog for the next 10 years and his reaction may be reduced (probably due to age), but not "fixed*". Every "reward based" trainer has told me the same thing- click treat click treat- NONE (have seen 4 now) have a plan B.


Same as with me, I use clicker training for both the dogs which has been brilliant .... but this was useless for reducing Roxy's reactivity. It also proved incredibly difficult to implement when I have a big dog who is lunging & barking!!

We did practise at a distance with other dogs but as soon as they got to a certain poinjt she went ballistic - we neber improved on this after 12 motnhs so there comes a point where I had to start looking for something else.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Believe me I have read alot, it's gotten to the stage where I didn't read anything else - I don't want to read about dog behaviour all the time
> 
> We did practise at a distance with other dogs but as soon as they got to a certain poinjt she went ballistic - we neber improved on this after 12 motnhs so there comes a point where I had to start looking for something else.


This exactly. Same time frame everything.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> I think I could click and treat my dog for the next 10 years and his reaction may be reduced (probably due to age), but not "fixed". Every "reward based" trainer has told me the same thing- click treat click treat- NONE (have seen 4 now) have a plan B.


I don't know what problem you're having with your dog but I ran into the same sort of thing with Rupert and his reactivity and stress while he was out on walks. The only other suggestions I got were to put him to sleep or just accept he was untrainable and live with it.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I don't know what problem you're having with your dog but I ran into the same sort of thing with Rupert and his reactivity and stress while he was out on walks. The only other suggestions I got were to put him to sleep or just accept he was untrainable and live with it.


Which with the best will in the world is not very helpful...... :huh: E specially from an "expert" who you are paying!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Well, let me ask you this. What was the point of the can of pennies? Was it to startle her so as to interrupt
> the [un-wanted] behavior? If so, what [will U] do, the next time you have to interrupt a behavior?
> 
> How many repetitions of the [shaker-can] do you think it will take before she starts habituating to the [sound]?
> ...


this is a very-real concern, & one many folks don't think of - after all, they don't INTEND to escalate 
to the point of inflicting serious pain, even if it's short-lived, or scaring the bejabbers out of their dog! 
it just kinda happens. :nonod:

i am not, let it be noted, implying that Cleo would endlessly up the ante, *until that *%$&#@! dog 
knocks it the H*** off... *  i am, however, saying that what begins as a mild interruptor 
which doesn't work, can quickly grow to include the use of pain, threats of punishment, displays of 
anger & threatening behaviors, shouts, swearing, stomping, smacks, etc... & it all starts small.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Which with the best will in the world is not very helpful...... :huh: E specially from an "expert" who you are paying!!


We were dropped by our behaviourist 

But .... we have done so well lately that I haven't taken it personally ... well, not much!

We have opuir class again tomorrow night so hopefully it will all go well again.

Last week Roxy was so relaxed at one epoint she lay donw, let our a huge sigh then went to sleep as the trainer was explaing the next exercise .... he laughed as I had been worried that she would kick off that night


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Which with the best will in the world is not very helpful...... :huh: E specially from an "expert" who you are paying!!


No, not at all helpful and it's this sort of thing that gives reward based training a bad name to be honest. People who never laid eyes on Rupert were more help than any of the so called experts I saw with him. I could have understood if they'd turned round and said that his problems were beyond their ability to help me with but they didn't, they just labelled him untrainable.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> We were dropped by our behaviourist
> 
> But .... we have done so well lately that I haven't taken it personally ... well, not much!
> 
> ...


See am really annoyed with myself for not continuing with the classes we went to when I first got Dex, on advice of a behaviourist (but it was seriously stressful- I often ended up in tears, or walking him alone away from the classes, not to mention the ignornat collie owner who made her opinion of Dex VERY loudly heard)- they seemed to have a good mix of reward the good/ correct the bad.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> No, not at all helpful and it's this sort of thing that gives reward based training a bad name to be honest. People who never laid eyes on Rupert were more help than any of the so called experts I saw with him. I could have understood if they'd turned round and said that his problems were beyond their ability to help me with but they didn't, they just labelled him untrainable.


Yes- VERY annoying when someone can not admit it is THEM who are not good enough, not your dog who is THAT bad.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> See am really annoyed with myself for not continuing with the classes we went to when I first got Dex, on advice of a behaviourist (but it was seriously stressful- I often ended up in tears, or walking him alone away from the classes, not to mention the ignornat collie owner who made her opinion of Dex VERY loudly heard)- they seemed to have a good mix of reward the good/ correct the bad.


We too were advised NOT to take Roxy to a class it it would be too stressful for her & a risk of 'flooding' her which I understand tbh. In hindsight though I wish I had as I believe we may have been alot further forward than we are now.

On a positive note, now I am not easily embarassed, I have gone through that so many times  But our new training class where everyone need advice.

We are still one of the worst but I don't mind as I have never felt that anyone looks down on us, I don't think that would be 'allowed' anyway as we are all there to learn, it must have been awful to have some be nasty to you when you were obvuiously trying to address problems


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Hard when we were the only ones there with an issue to speak of........ she just didnt like the noise Dex made, despite being toldby two of the trainers it was not aggression.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Hard when we were the only ones there with an issue to speak of........ she just didnt like the noise Dex made, despite being toldby two of the trainers it was not aggression.


I am lucky in that several of us have problem dogs so I'm not the onky one. Even at our last class for 'problem' dogs we were by far the worst. It was as if the other dogs didn't get alook in, Roxy did all the barking for them!

Their owners told me that their dogs had never been so quiet, it was as if they were all a bit intimidated by Roxy & she seemed to think the class was all about her 

Have you any other classes or trainers you can try? As I said I am now with a trainer who whilst I may not agree with some of his theories he is a good trainer so is there any other places that you may have previously disacounted that might be worth looking at?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Having walked with lexiehb on a very regular basis and also being one of his main walkers in rescue, I can honestly say that I have never seen such an intense reaction when he sees other dogs. 

I work with the more challenging dogs in the rescue and have many that are dog reactive. But none to the extreme her dog is. 

It makes no difference who walks him or even if you run with him, his intensity is the same. 

To the point I said to her "would you ever consider having him PTS?". Note this was a question, not a suggestion. 

At nearly 30kg and being a large bull breed it is no joke. 

Put bluntly nothing has worked so far. He is just unable to focus on anything or be distracted. 

If dexter had ended up with anyone else undoubtedly he would have bounced back to rescue. 

So with this in mind, what would you suggest next?

He's seen behaviourists, been vet checked, tried every calmative, is trained using a clicker, he walks regularly with my dogs and other friends dogs so gets to socialise. He's been to dog socialisation classes. 

There are a lot of experienced people who have replied. What would you suggest now?

Lexie is also very calm and chilled. It is certainly not her energy which is the problem. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way Lexie, I think your pretty amazing! :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Having walked with lexiehb on a very regular basis and also being one of his main walkers in rescue, I can honestly say that I have never seen such an intense reaction when he sees other dogs.
> 
> I work with the more challenging dogs in the rescue and have many that are dog reactive. But none to the extreme her dog is.
> 
> ...


That's pretty much how I feel. I have tried for a year & now have tried something else. I had gotten to stage where for Roxy's sake we needed to move on from this & I am more than happy with my decision to try something else.

I don't believe we have the problem resolved but we have (almost) broken the habit which was my main concern.

I really hope that Lexi can find someone or something to help with this as I know how 'challenging' this behaviour can be


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

> Yes- VERY annoying when someone can not admit it is THEM who are not good enough, not your dog who is THAT bad.


To be fair, Rupert was really bad. He had a multitude of issues that combined to make him an absolute nightmare to do anything with. He didn't play with toys and would completely ignore food for up to a week at a time which made things even more fun from a training point of view. Any sort of force resulted in him just dropping to the floor, closing his eyes and going limp. In 8 years of working with him I managed to get a fairly solid sit while out and about and that was it. And I think that was more automatic than cued in all honesty.

I'd actually seriously considered having him put to sleep not too long after getting him and I still wonder today whether I made the right choice for him in not freeing him from his demons back then. We worked through so much but everything we worked through uncovered another problem.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Having walked with [Lexie & Dexter, her dog] on a... regular basis & [as i was] also... one of Dex's
> main dog-walkers [whilst] in rescue, I can... say... I've never seen such an intense reaction [as his].


that's interesting, but doesn't tell us much.   How long is a rope? 


goodvic2 said:


> *emphasis & color added - *
> 
> *It makes no difference who walks him, or even if you run with him, his intensity is the same.*
> 
> ...


Hey, Lexie! :001_smile: 
which calmatives have U used previously? For how long were they used?

with Rescue-Remedy drops [liquid - the *pastilles* contain Xylitol, which is dangerous to dogs], 
i usually give approx 6 doses in order to establish a baseline & see how the dog responds. 
i give 5 to 6 drops, AM & PM, on an empty stomach - dripped onto a single treat, or into their flews 
[the slot between outer-lip & gum on the side of the dog's mouth], or if neither is apropos - perhaps 
the dog has a sore mouth, or cannot have treats - i put 2 to 3 drops on the INSIDE of the ear-flap, 
& gently rub them into the skin with my thumb, supporting the ear with my fingers behind it.

2 or 3 days later, i ask the owner for a report - Has the dog reacted less? 
How? [2 or 3 barks when ppl walk by, vs 6 or a dozen previously; etc]. 
Has the reactive behavior been of the same *duration*, or shorter? 
Has the reaction been as *intense* - loud, sharp, did s/he bolt, etc?

how were the calmatives introduced?

many require *association* - meaning they are used in a specific setting, such as at night, 
when the house is quiet & activity is minimal, to make a distinct pairing between calm & relaxed, 
and THAT THING [Anx-Wrap, aromatherapy scent, T-touch body-wrap, other].

others can simply be used immediately, & can be immediately effective. 
DAP, ResQ-Remedy, Calming-Cap, Pet-Calm, etc, don't require association.

a link on calmatives: What, When, How, etc: 
Post #22 - http://www.petforums.co.uk/1457713-post22.html 
it's a full page, & *I* wrote it all - please do click & read. :smilewinkgrin:

Have U seen or used Dr Overall's *relaxation protocol* or *deference protocol*?

the book _'Click to Calm'_ is an excellent, inexpensive DIY-manual for B-mod. 
it may be available thru the local library; if they don't own a copy, ask about inter-library loan 
[another library lends it to YOUR library, who then let U borrow it.  ]


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> To be fair, Rupert was really bad. He had a multitude of issues that combined to make him an absolute nightmare to do anything with. He didn't play with toys and would completely ignore food for up to a week at a time which made things even more fun from a training point of view. Any sort of force resulted in him just dropping to the floor, closing his eyes and going limp. In 8 years of working with him I managed to get a fairly solid sit while out and about and that was it. And I think that was more automatic than cued in all honesty.
> 
> I'd actually seriously considered having him put to sleep not too long after getting him and I still wonder today whether I made the right choice for him in not freeing him from his demons back then. We worked through so much but everything we worked through uncovered another problem.


Do you have any idea why he was like that? I suppose it's all guess work really. Roxy has notes from the rescue (& was going to be pts because one set of owners thought she was a 'pain' ) but you never really know the full story.

Roxy had no idea about playing with toys but luckily once we got her interested & played a few games she suddenly realised how much fun they were. I never forget watching her play for the first time on her onw - now she thinks they are ALL hers!

I think her problem was that she was kept on her own & isolcated from other dogs, not walked so had no interaction & didn't really learn any skills. She bounds over to other dogs (when offlead & I it's ok), try to rough play then gets 'told off' by them which she accepts. It sort of is reassuring that it isn't aggression but it can tip that way if she's leashed & gets frustrated.

She's such a lovely dog that I want her to be able to go to new places, enjoy meeting other dogs without getting herself so worked up


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

excuse any typo am on my phone! Calmatives used include thunder shirt, t touch, magnesium, Valerian and skull cap, another herbal remedy whose name escapes me, he still has rescue remedy in his water daily. These things are not cheap and have been used until they run out. Seeing no effect i am disinclined to continue using them once the first lot is finished, having seen no result. Have read the culture clash, control unleashed, feisty fido and many clicker training books with extremely limited results over prolonged periods of using these methods. Hence why the need for a plan b. It would seem dap could be the next thing to try


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2012)

Behavior modification using rewards-based methods does work. There is no question in my mind. However, its most definitely not a system of click and treat and hope for the best, and I find it very frustrating when PR training is conveyed that way. (The term Positive training is in itself a misnomer as explained very well by rottiefan.)

Positive training is about actually TRAINING the dog, not just being positive about having an ill-behaved dog (as a friend of mine says so eloquently). 

ALL dogs respond to rewards. Yes, that is an absolute statement about dogs, and yes those absolute statements have a way of biting you in the aspen, but this one really is true. All organisms behave in a way that benefits them. It might not be easy to decipher the benefit of the behavior from our perspective, but that doesnt change the fact that the behavior is or has been beneficial to the dog, and therefore it repeats, and becomes ingrained.

Punishment works too. Absolutely. And here I mean punishment in the behavioral science way - anything that causes a behavior to decrease in frequency. My biggest issue with punishment, from the most benign uh uh to the harshest correction, as a reliable, long term solution for behavior modification, is that dogs so quickly habituate to the punishment and then we humans feel the need to escalate it. In the same way that you push the elevator button harder to get the lift to come sooner. We all *know* it doesnt work, but we all do it anyway.

On the other hand, I have yet to see a dog habituate to a properly conditioned reward. No matter how many times I bring a leash out, my dogs get excited. No matter how many times I prepare dinner, the dogs salivate. Reinforcers dont loose power from repetition. If anything, they gain strength.

For those who use a startle as an attention getter, I would invite you to look up what are called positive interruptors. Same idea, but without the potential behavioral fall-out.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> Calmatives [previously] used include ThunderShirt, *T-touch*, magnesium, Valerian & skull cap,
> another herbal remedy whose name escapes me...


i've used Anxiety-Wraps, but not ThunderShirts - similar concepts, but the T-Shirts are more loose 
at the back of the body vs Anx-Wrap. I've also used a T-touch style figure-8 body wrap [Ace bandage]. 


Lexiedhb said:


> he still has *Rescue Remedy* in his water daily.


try giving the RR on an empty tum, as described on my linked-page. 
when it's added to water, U have no idea just how much or how little he gets. 
When it's given directly, at least U know he got it, & in what quantity.


Lexiedhb said:


> These things are not cheap, & have been used until they run out.
> Seeing no effect, i am disinclined to continue using them once the first lot
> is finished, having seen no result.


DIS-inclined to continue = stop using, yes?  Just checking. 


Lexiedhb said:


> I've read Culture Clash, Control Unleashed, Feisty Fido & many clicker-training
> books, with extremely-limited results over prolonged periods of using these methods.
> Hence... the need for a plan-B.
> 
> It [seems] DAP could be the next thing to try.


this may seem silly, but just reading books doesn't work - U have to apply the concepts in them. 
i'm not trying to be snippy, only inquiring as to what specifically U've done, using marker-training?

also, counter-conditioning [simple DS/CC routines like Open-bar / Closed-bar] doesn't have to use 
a marker of any kind; we are using the power of *association,* which is Pavlov: 
ring the bell that predicts food, the dog drools. 

a clicker is used for _*operant*_ conditioning, when the subject [the dog] *operates* the environs: 
the dog "makes the handler" pay-out, by performing an action that results in a reward: real-life, 
a treat, play with a toy, chase-me, anything the dog loves is a potential reward, & can be used 
as one in training, or in everyday life: SIT to get the leash clipped on, NOW we go for a walk, etc.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

The trouble with dexter is that he is so excited to be out that his excitement is already at level 7. How do you train an excitable mental state?

He's not going from level 1 (calm) to level 10. If he was you could nip it in the bud. But you cannot condition a brain in such an excitable state. 

Dex gets lots of exercise. Regularly does long walks of 5 plus miles. Lexie has also tried a treadmill to try to take the edge of his energy level, but to no avail. 

Dex grew up in kennels and is therefore poorly socialised, although surprisingly good when not in his excited state. He may also have been neutered before he was able to mature. (as all rescues r neutered as a matter of course). 

He has the equivalent to human ADHD or something similar in my opinion


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dex will not wear a TTouch wrap- pulls it off with his teeth, so this is not an option, something about the positioning he finds uncomfortable. Forgot to mention he also has RR 10 mins before we go out, will try on an empty stomach but to be fair cannot see it making much of a difference- am looking into DAP. Yes i will not continue using calmatives when no improvement at all is seen after a month or so of usage.

It is a bit annoying to read "it is not just click and treat" and "you have to apply the concepts" - not helpful. of course I know it is about training, first to the clicker, then the timing, what exactly it is you are clicking, along side other things such as get the hell out of a situation you can not deal with. I am not having a go at reward based sysytems, so there is no need to defend them, and please do not assume i am simply to stupid to understand the concepts and implement them properly, Im not.

4 behaviourists have told me i read him well, click mostly at the correct time, generally make the right decision with regards to whether to remove myself and him from a situation, and handle him well.

Perhaps with certain dogs reward based training is not enough?


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> The trouble with dexter is that he is so excited to be out that his excitement is already at level 7. How do you train an excitable mental state?
> 
> He's not going from level 1 (calm) to level 10. If he was you could nip it in the bud. *But you cannot condition a brain in such an excitable state.*


Im wondering where you get this idea from? Counter conditioning can happen at any point during the reactivity. Generally its best to find the distance where the dog is under threshold, but that doesnt mean you cant work with an excited dog.
This dog is rather up, doesnt tire out with exercise (it just hypes him up more), but with PR training he has learned fabulous stimulus control and we have redirected his hyper focus on to what works better for us:
Playing LAT:





Focus under pretty significant distractions. (Pardon the sloppy heel position, the criteria was focus. One criteria at a time )







Lexiedhb said:


> It is a bit annoying to read "it is not just click and treat" and "you have to apply the concepts" - not helpful. of course I know it is about training, first to the clicker, then the timing, what exactly it is you are clicking, along side other things such as get the hell out of a situation you can not deal with. I am not having a go at reward based sysytems, so there is no need to defend them, and please do not assume i am simply to stupid to understand the concepts and implement them properly, Im not.


 My response was geared more towards those trainers not offering clients more options as far as behavior modification. 
B-mod using positive reinforcement methods is much more complex than simply teaching behaviors using operant conditioning. Its a shame that there are so many trainers out there who dont get this, and they are giving PR training a reputation for not being effective in difficult cases, which is a real shame.

This dog was deemed unadoptable due to aggression, and was slated to be euthanized by the shelter. He had been semi-feral, was snacking on local livestock so had been shot at least twice, had proven nearly impossible to catch using conventional methods, and finally had to be caught in a live trap (Im assuming a bear trap LOL.) We ended up pulling major strings to get him out of the shelter.
He was seriously food aggressive and counterintuitively would NOT take treats of any sort outside (probably from all the times he was lured in to being caught with food bribes). His recall was a huge challenge, again stemming from his massive distrust of humans.

I never once used a clicker at any point in his rehabilitation. His rehab was all about rewiring his primitive brain and reforming associations - none of which has to do with operant conditioning. Here you see a conditioned response to his name, AND he is taking treats:





Contrasted with his behavior around me before (anyone wanna play count the calming signals?)




(sorry that was with the bad camera and no sound.)

I dont think PR trainers do the training any favors when they cant offer a plan B or C or D. To me the beauty of this type of training IS the variety and the different approaches you can take. I have seen trainer take dogs so reactive that they literally could not walk in to the training facility without going bananas, to be able to go in the breed ring with other intact dogs and be inspected by a judge.

By the same token, its also important to educate dog owners on what is and what is not progress. Had I not know what I know and TRUSTED the method, I would have thrown my hands up in despair with the great dane above. Because for a LONG time it seemed like we were not making any headway whatsoever. But being able to see the little things that were improving gave me the confidence to continue.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Behavior modification using rewards-based methods does work. There is no question in my mind. However, its most definitely not a system of "click and treat" and hope for the best, and I find it very frustrating when "PR" training is conveyed that way. (The term "Positive training" is in itself a misnomer as explained very well by rottiefan.)
> 
> Positive training is about actually TRAINING the dog, not just being positive about having an ill-behaved dog (as a friend of mine says so eloquently).
> 
> ...


I agree that in most instances reward based training works - believe me, I am not arguing with this. I also clicker train both my dogs & do understand the concept - both behaviourists have seen have told me that my timing is good so I understand it's not just 'click/treat & hope for the best' 

As for a positive interrupter; do you really think I haven't already tried this? Do you not think that i have been working on this for a year now so do know what to try. We have & do not have any success with this once Roxy is over threashold 'don't let her get over threashhold' I then hear people say .... very difficult when you are out in the real world & have no control over where other people walk their dogs!

Why do you think that this type of 'puinishment' would escalate? Why would it? Will your use of 'ah ah' escalate? So if yours won't why will mine? :huh:

I know people say that by having a negative interrupter (is that what I'm using?) then the dog doesn't learn anything about what I do want her to do - I disagree. by using the nioise it stops the unwanted behaviour which then means I get that cahnce to tell her what I want her to do; sit & watch me



Lexiedhb said:


> Dex will not wear a TTouch wrap- pulls it off with his teeth, so this is not an option, something about the positioning he finds uncomfortable. Forgot to mention he also has RR 10 mins before we go out, will try on an empty stomach but to be fair cannot see it making much of a difference- am looking into DAP. Yes i will not continue using calmatives when no improvement at all is seen after a month or so of usage.
> 
> It is a bit annoying to read "it is not just click and treat" and "you have to apply the concepts" - not helpful. of course I know it is about training, first to the clicker, then the timing, what exactly it is you are clicking, along side other things such as get the hell out of a situation you can not deal with. I am not having a go at reward based sysytems, so there is no need to defend them, and please do not assume i am simply to stupid to understand the concepts and implement them properly, Im not.
> 
> ...


Roxy was the same with the thundershirt - hated it. We have also used Zylkene, RR (added to water & on a treat) DAP collar, DAP spray (on her bed & where she relaxes), TT touch sessions (which she enjoys but have no bearing on her behaviour), used a combination of Omega 3/6/9 (I belive there were studies done regarding this improving behaviour in children) extra carbs in her diet to boost serotonin, I realised a while ago we had been doing techniques in the BAT training clips I have watched, we also watched dogs at a distance, I practised with neighbours dogs, I sought areas out where we could take her where she wouldnm;t get harrassed by off lead dogs wehile leashed (she gets very defensive then) but could see on lead dogs (difficult to find & not close by so weekends spent driving when I really could do without that!), behaviorual classes, reading (& applying techniques - of course I would, why would I buy the book otherwise?!) various books regarding behaviour & reactivity (including 'Click to Calm')..

I have taken time off work to try address these issues; we did varying exercises but not too much as I didn't want to stress her out. I cannot spend anymore time tryiong to address this by coninuing with these methods as they are not working. I do not want to spend all my spare time trying to improve this (after a year it's got to stop). it's not fair on me & it's not fair on Roxy as I'm sure all she wants to do is have a lovely walk.

I do not believe that any of this things have made much of a difference to Roxy's reactive behaviour if I am honest (in other areas things have improved which I think is a combination of the above, a stable environment, lots of exercise & lots of love!)

These past few months I had given up on all the above tbh & I have not seen a decrease in her behaviour - there has been no difference except for when we started our new classes & used the 'evil bottle of stones'! Tbh, all I want is for Roxy to be happy, enjoy her walks, not go nuts when we see another dog but enjoy the meeting - which will also make me very happy 

(Sorry for the mega post)

Edited after wartching the Youtube links - I'm really not sure what relevenace these have tbh. I have tried using the LAT game as depicted in the first clip but how do you apply that when a dog is going ballistatic. I uderstand that you start at a distance & gradually increase all the time monitoring not going over threshold but I can honestly say that this hasn't worked for us.

I understand the concept but I don't hget how showing a clips of a calm dog responding how you would want him to to beneficial. It would be much more interesting to show a dop going mad & then show how to calm them. I would defy anyone to gain Roxy's attention when she is in full Mrs Nutcase mode without using a noise interrupter. She is simply not interested in anything other than getting to the other dog & once she has got herself in to a state then I wouldn't want her to meet the other dog as she can easily tip from frustartion to aggression.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> As for a positive interrupter; do you really think I haven't already tried this?


Do you mind explaining what youve done and how you applied it? Often what works for one dog wont for another and a seemingly insignificant tweak of the application can make all the difference.



Cleo38 said:


> Why do you think that this type of 'puinishment' would escalate? Why would it?


Because that is human nature! I see it all. the. time. If the leash pop doesnt work, yank harder. If the flat collar doesnt work, try a prong. By the time most pet dogs hit the training mats the owner has gone from relatively benign to bordering barbaric. I just spent a weekend talking to hundreds of people about training their dogs and I can tell you, every single one having issues with their dog felt the need to escalate the punishment.



Cleo38 said:


> I know people say that by having a negative interrupter (is that what I'm using?) then the dog doesn't learn anything about what I do want her to do - I disagree. by using the nioise it stops the unwanted behaviour which then means I get that cahnce to tell her what I want her to do; sit & watch me


No, thats not what I said at all. I very clearly said that punishment, startle tactics DO work. And Im glad this is working for you, everyone should have success with their dog.
ALL I am saying is why *I* would choose to go another route. 
- Startle tactics dont make sense for what I want from my dogs and the household they live in.
- Startle tactics are only as good as their ability to startle. Dogs habituate to a startling stimulus *very* quickly. Its called desensitization.
- Most people escalate the stimulus when the dog desensitizes to it. This begs the question at what point do you stop.

The OP asked for OPINIONS so I am giving mine, and my OPINION is that there are equally effective ways to modify behavior without using startle tactics. I am NOT saying this is what YOU or anyone has to do, I am simply offering my opinion and experience.

Listen, (rant warning), I really dont give a flying flamingo if people use PR training or not. Unless its downright abuse (which a throw can is not by any stretch) I dont care how others train their dogs. But lets stop already with saying other ways dont work when there are armies of dogs out there including mine proving every day that these methods DO work and work very well. If you dont want to use them, fine, dont. But recognize that it is a personal choice and not because the dog is too big, too excited, too fearful, too reactive, too small, too strong, too furry etc. etc. 
If I had a penny for every owner out there saying yeah but and explaining how their dog is special and the rules of behavioral science somehow skipped that dog... Its like saying I know gravity exists, it just doesnt apply to my dog while the dog is clearly not floating off in to the ether. 
Sorry, end rant


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I train my dogs the same way I brought my kids up. 
I do my level best to use logical, positive methods. 
However... sometimes life just catches up with me and I shout and scream and jump up and down. I have been known to throw things. I have been known to flail with the nearest object (my gloves for example). 
The kids and the dogs forgive me for this because they are Nice People. 
And I resolve to do better in future. :smilewinkgrin:
But buy something to frighten / hurt a dog with and walk round with it? What does that do to your mindset???????hmy:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Do you mind explaining what you've done and how you applied it? Often what works for one dog won't for another and a seemingly insignificant tweak of the application can make all the difference.
> 
> Because that is human nature! I see it all. the. time. If the leash pop doesn't work, yank harder. If the flat collar doesn't work, try a prong. By the time most pet dogs hit the training mats the owner has gone from relatively benign to bordering barbaric. I just spent a weekend talking to hundreds of people about training their dogs and I can tell you, every single one having "issues" with their dog felt the need to escalate the punishment.
> 
> ...


But then surely every dog woner would be ecalating using more agressive techniques then, I hardly think shaking a bottle of stones once (5wks ago today!) is one step on a path of animal abuse.

as I have said (many times) using this is not a training aid, it is not something I will use ALL the time so there is little risk of Roxy becoming desensitised to this. If for some reason she did then obviously there would be little point using it. BUT ..... I used it to try & break a behaviour of klicking off evry time she saw another dog ...... & it HAS worked, & been far more effective then previous training .

I do understand that this is your opinion & I am not arguing against positve reward based training - this is what I use with both my dogs. I am not disputing that other methods don't work, but ...so dfar they havenl;t for my dog for this type of behaviour.

Seriously, how long am I supposed to carry on like this after a year of working on this? How much more £££'s am I suppopsed top spend on behaviourists, how many more miles & hrs should I be spending driving to safe places to practise training, how much more time should I take off work trying to address this? I can't do it anymore, I don't want to either. I want our time together to be enjoyable not constantly spent trying to address this

Tbh I don't belivbe all dogs are the same, I don't belive that they will all respond in the same way to the same techniques - that's my opinion! It is my choice to use what I have done but I am doing so based on my experience with my dog & doing what I see best for her.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Do you have any idea why he was like that? I suppose it's all guess work really.


I really don't know. Lack of socialisation was one factor I think but there were all sorts of things suggested but nothing that could really be proven. Brain damage, some sort of doggy autism, ADD, things like that. He had absolutely no "bounce back", if something startled or worried him then it upset him for days. And something as simple as a leaf blowing towards him or the tv cabinet being moved 2ft could upset him. And by upset him I mean full on meltdown, not just a startle. Several times he soiled himself over things like a plastic bag in a tree or a garden chair that had tipped over.

I gained Ruperts trust and with me he could function at a level where he had a reasonably good quality of life. Take me out of the equation though and he fell apart again. All the old problems came back in full force and he reverted to the dog who lived under the bed too frightened to come out.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I dont really understand the video links to be honest, as obviously these are dogs who RESPONDED to "reward based" training. A more informative vid would be of what you did when your dog was going utterly ballistic, not the end result of a well behaved dog- I know it CAN work, i have watched 28 million You tube vids on the subject. Also NOONE has said these methods do not work, simply that they do not work on every single dog, it is very closed minded to just dismiss people who say it does not work on my dog as wrong.


"But buy something to frighten / hurt a dog with and walk round with it? What does that do to your mindset???????" _ no one has mentioned using anything that will frighten or hurt a dog.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> I really don't know. Lack of socialisation was one factor I think but there were all sorts of things suggested but nothing that could really be proven. Brain damage, some sort of doggy autism, ADD, things like that. He had absolutely no "bounce back", if something startled or worried him then it upset him for days. And something as simple as a leaf blowing towards him or the tv cabinet being moved 2ft could upset him. And by upset him I mean full on meltdown, not just a startle. Several times he soiled himself over things like a plastic bag in a tree or a garden chair that had tipped over.
> 
> I gained Ruperts trust and with me he could function at a level where he had a reasonably good quality of life. Take me out of the equation though and he fell apart again. All the old problems came back in full force and he reverted to the dog who lived under the bed too frightened to come out.


Poor boy, at least he had you to look out for him. It must have been very difficult with a dog like that but so rewarding when you could see even a small break through.

Roxy wasn't that bad at all although she did used to get very upset if things were out of place for a while (a car parked near our house, a branch blownm down near gate on our walk, etc) but she did get over that.

She used to compulsively dog on walks if we stopped. She was ok if we kept moving but would manically dig if we ever sat to do some training exercises, she once dug for 15mins & only stopped when she was physically exhausted.

She didn't really enjoy walks at first but for her it seemed to be letting her offlead was the main factor in seeing an improvement in her behaviour. Once she was able to run freely & disciovered her love of swimming she became alot more relaxed & wasn't the anxious dog she intially was.

We used to try & practise on a long line at first as I was worried about her behaviour towards other dogs but she hated this & was less responsive on this than when offlead.

Obviously I have spent ALOT of time working on her recall which is now good but chasing animals is a big problem bnut one I am constantly working on & luckily I have managed to prevent any chases so far.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> I dont really understand the video links to be honest, as obviously these are dogs who RESPONDED to "reward based" training. A more informative vid would be of what you did when your dog was going utterly ballistic, not the end result of a well behaved dog- I know it CAN work, i have watched 28 million You tube vids on the subject. Also NOONE has said these methods do not work, simply that they do not work on every single dog, it is very closed minded to just dismiss people who say it does not work on my dog as wrong.
> 
> "But buy something to frighten / hurt a dog with and walk round with it? What does that do to your mindset???????" _ no one has mentioned using anything that will frighten or hurt a dog.


LOL, Roxy was have had that bloke off his stilts in seconds if she had kicked off


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> But then surely every dog woner would be ecalating using more agressive techniques then, I hardly think shaking a bottle of stones once (5wks ago today!) is one step on a path of animal abuse.


Of course its not a one way ticket to animal abuse, I never said it was, in fact I specifically said that a shake can was NOT abusive (am I unwittingly typing in mandarin here or something?)
People use these methods because they DO work on many dogs. It worked for your dog and thats great. However, there are *many* dogs out there who would be entirely unimpressed by a shaker can (2 of my own included) or for whom a shaker can would simply escalate their reaction. Ever seen a bite-sport dog on the sleeve with a clatter stick? Same idea, the clatter stick does NOTHING to stop the biting, nor should it. 
Lucky for you, you have a dog who is impressed by a shaker can and responded in a way that worked for you. I asked you what you would have done if your dog had NOT responded well to the shaker can. What if that behavioralist had told you to try something harsher? Ever heard of the Milgram Effect?



Cleo38 said:


> Seriously, how long am I supposed to carry on like this after a year of working on this? How much more £££'s am I suppopsed top spend on behaviourists, how many more miles & hrs should I be spending driving to safe places to practise training, how much more time should I take off work trying to address this? I can't do it anymore, I don't want to either. I want our time together to be enjoyable not constantly spent trying to address this


Do what works for you. How long is a rope as L4L said. Your idea of trying everything and mine arent going to coincide and thats OKAY.



Cleo38 said:


> Tbh I don't belivbe all dogs are the same, I don't belive that they will all respond in the same way to the same techniques - that's my opinion! It is my choice to use what I have done but I am doing so based on my experience with my dog & doing what I see best for her.


Of course not all dogs respond the same, not all dogs have the same motivations, history, and chemical make up. Who is saying all dogs respond the same?
What I am saying is that no dog is immune to Behavioral Science. No dog exists that does not respond to rewards, if the dog were not motivated to feed and protect himself the dog would be dead, plain and simple. ALL dogs eat, ALL dogs respond to both punishments and rewards. WHAT is punishing and what is rewarding is how they differ.



Lexiedhb said:


> I dont really understand the video links to be honest, as obviously these are dogs who RESPONDED to "reward based" training. A more informative vid would be of what you did when your dog was going utterly ballistic, not the end result of a well behaved dog.


Absence of behavior does not equal well behaved. Not to be snarky, but if the videos dont make sense to you then I can see how you would have trouble understanding how PR training works. The great dane throwing calming signals is certainly NOT my idea of a safe, well-behaved dog LOL!
You are not going to see a video of a dog going ballistic because thats not how you get the best results with this type of training. The whole point is to keep the dog under threshold. Further discussed (with video examples) here:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat...g-videos-positive-reinforcement-training.html



Lexiedhb said:


> Also NOONE has said these methods do not work, simply that *they do not work on every single dog*, it is very closed minded to just dismiss people who say it does not work on my dog as wrong.


Saying the methods only work on *some* dogs is like saying gravity only applies to some objects. Just because you can get an airplane up in the air doesnt mean youre defying gravity  Same idea with behavioral science. Just because YOU didnt have success with your dog using PR methods doesnt mean there isnt someone out there who could have success with your dog using PR methods - THAT is what is closed minded 
And Im not saying that to say that you have to use PR methods, just saying dont fault the pencil because it didnt draw what you wanted it to.

I am seriously NOT trying to offend anyone, I just get very irritated with the notion that some dogs REQUIRE harsher treatment, that theres somehow this special type of dog for whom the laws of behavioral science do not apply. Its the whole blame the dog, the dog made me type mentality that really gets under my skin...


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> "But buy something to frighten / hurt a dog with and walk round with it? What does that do to your mindset???????" _ no one has mentioned using anything that will frighten or hurt a dog.


 If you`re not using positive methods you`re using aversives. Aversives include `distraction` methods - Rattles, sprays etc. I`m pretty sure these have been mentioned.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Of course its not a one way ticket to animal abuse, I never said it was, in fact I specifically said that a shake can was NOT abusive *(am I unwittingly typing in mandarin here or something?)*People use these methods because they DO work on many dogs. It worked for your dog and that's great. However, there are *many* dogs out there who would be entirely unimpressed by a shaker can (2 of my own included) or for whom a shaker can would simply escalate their reaction. Ever seen a bite-sport dog on the sleeve with a clatter stick? Same idea, the clatter stick does NOTHING to stop the biting, nor should it.
> Lucky for you, you have a dog who is impressed by a shaker can and responded in a way that worked for you. I asked you what you would have done if your dog had NOT responded well to the shaker can. What if that behavioralist had told you to try something harsher? Ever heard of the Milgram Effect?
> 
> Do what works for you. How long is a rope as L4L said. Your idea of trying everything and mine aren't going to coincide and that's OKAY.
> ...


I thought there was no need to be sarky?! 

Throughout my posts I have been talking about some dogs (mine in particular) & have not said that this would work for ALL dogs, as you point out, it would not for yours.

I am quite aware of the Milgram experiment thanks. I also am aware of what I expect a trainer/behaviorist to do & what is/isn't acceptable. I question most things in my life, if I get pills from the dr for an ailment I ask what they are, how they will help, etc - I do not blindly follow advice. Although it does seem that at times we should all follow certain advice on here & never deviate from it otherwise we are using 'harsh' training methods & our dogs will somehow suffer consequences.

Sorry but I think you miss the point of people asking for help. We can all watch clips of dogs in a non confrontational mode but how does that help those of us whi have dogs that act in the completely oppositte way.

As I said in a previous post (maybe I too was speaking in Mandarin) that I understand how & why to keep a dog under threashold but this is not always possible in the real world.

Sorry but I am being anything but close minded, maybe there is someone who could work with my dog for an infinite period of time & produce effective results - if you would like to show me him/her then I will contact them.

How long is a piece of rope? So it sould take years to stop this behaviour using PR which i have been doing (& still do may add!) Yet I have had a successful result in weeks by trying something considered 'harsher' & now I have to be concerned of the 'fallout' that may happen or that she may become desensitised??

Sorry but you may have all the time in the world, you may (& probably do) have much more experience than me, more skills in training, etc but you are not the one who has to cope with Roxy when she kicks off & deal with the consequences - that's me & after a year of it I've had enopugh & want to try something that will work.

I, do not want to offend you, I'm not saying you are wrong, you have your opinion & I have mine but what irritates you about people blaming their dog (I'm not btw) irritates me when people simply insinuate I'm either not 'doing it right' or don't understand the concept.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Absence of behavior does not equal well behaved. Not to be snarky, but if the videos don't make sense to you then I can see how you would have trouble understanding how PR training works. The great dane throwing calming signals is certainly NOT my idea of a safe, well-behaved dog LOL!
> You are not going to see a video of a dog going ballistic because that's not how you get the best results with this type of training. The whole point is to keep the dog under threshold. Further discussed (with video examples) here:
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat...g-videos-positive-reinforcement-training.html
> 
> ...


I did not say the videos do not make sense (just that i did not understand the point of posting them on this thread)- only that they are unhelpful to me as i have used the methods shown in them repeatedly with very very limited success, and like I said watched many many videos of dogs that do respond to this sort of training very well.
I refuse to believe EVERY dog is the same, and as such will respond to the same training methods. Things like history, intelligence, state of mind, level of abuse, socialisation, temperament, even breed HAVE to play a part. Its not as simple as gravity. Its like saying everyone with a mental illness WILL respond to the same treatment- when in fact that is very far from the truth.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> If you`re not using positive methods you`re using aversives. Aversives include `distraction` methods - Rattles, sprays etc. I`m pretty sure these have been mentioned.


I dont think shaking a bottle of stones near my particular dog would scare him, or cause him pain.... so still no one has mentioned things that would do this.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Animal Behavior Resources Institute of American Humane Association

I watched a clip regarding on-leash aggression with Jean Donaldson & Ian Dunbar which i have seen before. Still not a patch on roxy's 'performance'though!

We have since been recommended the gentle leader by our new trainer & it has worked better. Before Roxy hated all her headcollars but doesn't seem half as bad with this.

The clip shows excatly what we have been doing with her & we also can get very close to other dogs with no problems now. Before (pre stones!) as soon as she could see the dogs she would start to get hyped up. It's interesting as JD uses an 'ah ah' noise as some poeple don't even like using this - I use 'no' with Roxy but with the same reasoning.

However, previously even having better control over her with a headcollar she would lunge, twist etc & I was concerned she would hurt herself.

Anyway, things are better for us now & whether people think I am right or wrong I really don't care (no offense!) but I just hope that other people aren't put off for asking about using other methods without getting jumped on for even considering them.

PS. Did I hear Dr Ian Dunbar use the phrase ' what a top dog would do' ????  Surely not???!!!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Animal Behavior Resources Institute of American Humane Association
> 
> I watched a clip regarding on-leash aggression with Jean Donaldson & Ian Dunbar which i have seen before. Still not a patch on roxy's 'performance'though!
> 
> ...


See now THAT is a useful Vid..... dex already wears a gentle leader, and is more manageable in it.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> See now THAT is a useful Vid..... dex already wears a gentle leader, and is more manageable in it.


LOL, it was a bit like when i was trying to find out about managing a dog who pulls (Roxy again!). I knew all the theory but wanted to see someone actually mange a dog who pulled like a steam train .... I couldn't find any that showed a dog like Roxy .... she didn't always pull but bunny hoppped!!! No amount of treats worked for that either, she wasn;t interested in a treat, she wasn't interested in anything other than going forward so obviously not going forward was the 'punishment'

We have managed to get this under control by using the gentle leader & by changing direction, walking directly across her path to force her to change direction (that's probably not postive either!) which have been massively helpful & she now (mainly) walks alot better .... I still hesitate to use the word nicely although it has been known!

For me, the noise interrupter worked because it gave me that split second to regain Roxy's focus much as I explained a whistle does when she goes to chase an animal, I blow a couple of peeps on the whistle hiold her ball up & she recalls to chase that instead -= well, that's the idea which mainly works!!!!

It hasn't made her fearful of noise either. We live in the countryside & regularly hear shooting which has never bothered her. My other dog Toby used to be very scared of the sound of shotguns & really would panic (which we have overcome using clicker training ) I would never dream of using something like I did with Roxy with him as it would have the oppositte effect where he would ignore me because he was so scared.

I can only suggest that you make your own mind up & decide what's best for you your dog


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Sorry but I think you miss the point of people asking for help. We can all watch clips of dogs in a non confrontational mode but how does that help those of us whi have dogs that act in the completely oppositte way.


Did you read the link to the other thread I provided? There are videos posted in that link of dogs who go from lunging and biting to not. Sorry, I'm too lazy to post them directly in this thread, I thought the other thread was helpful ::shrug::

Just to clarify, as I did in my very first post in this thread. I am not saying anyone has to train without aversives, I am not saying there is anything "wrong" with training with aversives. All I have done throughout this thread is explain why I personally don't and the issues I personally have with using aversives. I am not saying this is the protocol the rest of the world needs to follow. Nor am I saying I even follow it all the time. Again, my first post says I don't accomplish it all the time, I'm not that good. But I do know that people like Susan Garrett, Hannah Brannigan, Steve White and numerous others do accomplish with their dogs what most of us only dream of and they do it without force, fear, or intimidation, and it doesn't take them years either. Ergo, it *can* be done. I may not be able to, you may not be able to, but that doesn't mean that the dog can't be rehabbed any other way. He who says it can't be done should get out of the way of the person doing it 
Personally I would rather put my efforts in to seeing how I can do a better job next time than justifying why I "had" to do something or why the dog "made" me do something. That's just me.



Lexiedhb said:


> I did not say the videos do not make sense (just that i did not understand the point of posting them on this thread)- only that they are unhelpful to me as i have used the methods shown in them repeatedly with very very limited success, and like I said watched many many videos of dogs that do respond to this sort of training very well.
> I refuse to believe EVERY dog is the same, and as such will respond to the same training methods. Things like history, intelligence, state of mind, level of abuse, socialisation, temperament, even breed HAVE to play a part. Its not as simple as gravity. Its like saying everyone with a mental illness WILL respond to the same treatment- when in fact that is very far from the truth.


Again, read the thread I linked. It shows before and after results.
PR is an umbrella term. It is NOT a one-size fits all treatment. LAT may work for one dog while BAT might work for another, while traditional CC and DS might work for the third and for a fourth you might use a combination of all of the above.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Some dogs you just cannot 'fix', and you should not aim for that. The same way with a child with behavioural problems, you cannot 'fix' them completely in many instances. It is an abstract concept at best.

One of the hardest things to do with a dog with reactivity issues, I think, is to notice when change has actually been made for the better. It might only be subtle, but it is most usually there.

At the same time, when change is made, and is noticed, people become a little too excited and happy, and get themselves into trouble again, e.g. the dog reacts on its next walk.

When using clicker training etc., it is so important to not only have your timing perfect, but to manage the environment perfectly. I know some who isolate the dog from the trigger (e.g. other dogs) for at least 2 weeks to a month before even starting training- I know, not easy!



Lexiedhb said:


> I was told by my last behaviourist, (before being told that my dog had formed an association with the training field and a high state of arousal, and as such I probably shouldnt go anymore) that BAT training is nothing new, just re hashed old theories. so would be uninclined to call it modern.


BAT training is a not an old concept. I don't know of anyone who has created such a well-defined system as Grisha Stewart. It does build on concepts already known, but the way it is formulated is unique. Soooo many people have had success with it, including me.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Also, just to make things clear, learning theory is not an intervention, it is a fact. We all learn by it. So when Ouesi writes that every dog can learn using these techniques, she is referring to the fact that every organism capable of learning will respond to these techniques. The level of improvement is dependent on other things.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> *Some dogs you just cannot 'fix', and you should not aim for that.* The same way with a child with behavioural problems, you cannot 'fix' them completely in many instances. It is an abstract concept at best.
> 
> One of the hardest things to do with a dog with reactivity issues, I think, is to notice when change has actually been made for the better. It might only be subtle, but it is most usually there.
> 
> ...


This was my problem with Roxy at first. I felt under pressure to 'fix' her & address all her issues (it was along list!). After a while I gave up on that as I realised that I was probably adding to her anxiety & causing myself more stress.

I do now accept Roxy for the dog she is (although that doesn't mean that I don't do any training or behaviour modification with her). I accept that she is not the sort of dog I would walk around a busy place like I could with Toby (although I'd never really want to tbh), I probably would never take her to a dog show but .... there are certain activities that I know she would enjoy & would benenfit her so we do need to address the reactivity issue to an acceptable, managable degree.

The fact that we have so far attended 3 training classes with alot of other dogs (& she has exhibited minimal anxiety, has been a positive step. It has also given me confidence in this area which also affects Roxy.

I also accept that our successes may not be big, they may be very small but I do take note of them. Roxy has made such progress since she came to live with us & I have tried my best for her despite her only being my second dog, i don't think we quite realised what we were taking on! She should have been rehomed with someone with more experience than me but she wasn't so I have to work with her & make decisions based on what I feel is best for her. I have (& will make mistakes) but I will hopefully learn from these.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> It is a bit annoying to read "it is not just click and treat" & "you have to apply the concepts"...


i didn't write that first snippet, & i was merely observing when i wrote the second.


Lexiedhb said:


> ...please do not assume i am simply to stupid to understand the concepts and implement them properly,
> I'm not.


i didn't assume anything, & i definitely didn't assume that U're stoopid - but U seem to assume 
that i'm an adversarial prick, :lol: No worries; i'll let others continue the thread.


Lexiedhb said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Perhaps with *certain dogs*, reward-based training is not enough?


since that's all i've used for over 25-years, including the B-Mod of dogs with severe aggression problems, 
with or without prior bite-histories, i'd say that's a resounding _*No.*_


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Because [to escalate] is human nature! I see it *all. the. time.*
> If the leash-pop doesnt work, yank harder. If the flat collar doesnt work, try a prong.
> By the time most pet-dogs hit the training mats, the owner has gone from relatively benign to bordering
> barbaric.  I just spent a weekend talking to hundreds of people about training their dogs & I can tell you,
> every single one having issues with their dog felt the need to escalate the punishment.


sadly, yes. See it, hear it, am told via client e-mails & thru colleagues, etc - it's a recurring refrain. :nonod: 


ouesi said:


> I very-clearly said that punishment [such as] startle tactics DO work. ...
> 
> ALL I am saying is why *I* would choose to go another route.
> - Startle tactics dont make sense for what I want from my dogs & the household they live in.
> ...


_Whoa._ :001_tt1: whatta rant! Love it. :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> _ am really annoyed with myself for not continuing with the classes we went to when I first got Dex...
> I often ended up in tears, or walking him alone away from the classes, not to mention the ignornat collie owner
> who made her opinion of Dex VERY loudly heard) - [but] they seemed to have a good mix of *reward the good*
> [&] *correct the bad*._


_

this is often referred to as 'balanced' training, but is more-often im-balanced, IME. 
 the dogs are praised so long as they don't screw-up, & then punished when they do.

there's no attempt to make the praise 'as potent' as the punisher, or to counter the aversive 
with a leavening opp for rewards, or to ensure that all aversives are mild *as rated by each dog*.

it's just kisses & kicks, really. :blush2: Sometimes U get one, sometimes the other._


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

LfL- nowhere did I take a tone that assumes you are a prick. Just becasue you have had 25 years of experience does not mean you know what will work on every single dog on the planet- same way doctors who have practised all their lives still have the "never seen that" moments. Surely there has to be SOME kind of give and take, some exceptions to the norm.

Why is it that just becasue someone is perhaps looking down another avenue they are catagorically wrong?-and ridiculed for it, nowhere have I said PR based methods are useless, or that they do not work for the vast majority f dog/handler partnerships. How do you know that this "there's no attempt to make the praise 'as potent' as the punisher, or to counter the aversive 
with a leavening opp for rewards, or to ensure that all aversives are mild as rated by each dog. " is not the case?

Of everything I have tried for lengthy periods of time, the "praise the good, correct the bad" is the only system I saw any sort of result with- shame I listened to someone who thought otherwise at the time.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> LfL- nowhere did I take a tone that assumes you are a prick. Just becasue you have had 25 years of experience does not mean you know what will work on every single dog on the planet- same way doctors who have practised all their lives still have the "never seen that" moments. Surely there has to be SOME kind of give and take, some exceptions to the norm.
> 
> *Why is it that just becasue someone is perhaps looking down another avenue they are catagorically wrong?-and ridiculed for it*, nowhere have I said PR based methods are useless, or that they do not work for the vast majority f dog/handler partnerships. How do you know that this "there's no attempt to make the praise 'as potent' as the punisher, or to counter the aversive
> with a leavening opp for rewards, or to ensure that all aversives are mild as rated by each dog. " is not the case?
> ...


Excatly, you shouldn't be. You have asked a question & gotten opinions which is great but some of the sarky replies or assumptions that you (or I) don't quite 'get' techiques is a bit patronising

I have just had another successful class so I am pleased with my decison previously. Maybe if I had continued as we were then in a year I would have seen more imprvements, maybe if someone else was training Roxy there would be better improvements but this isn;t the case - it's down to me

Roxy went to kick off at one stage & was told 'No' quite loudly. Again this stopped her OTT behaviopur & we continued the class. I carefully watched her body language & she wasn't relaxed at all times but she certainly wasn't stressed.

She was focussed at most times during the class although she's still very interested in the other dogs but being in a closer proximity to them can only be a good thing (imo)


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Lexie
Dex sounds like Bosley but at the next level and I too use a shaker bottle with him. Bos when he see's another dog goes into a zone and no matter what you do what food toys etc you have he looses it. He starts to growl bark and lunge and the only way to snap him out of it is surprise him and the rattle of the bottle is the only thing I have found so far that makes him go whoa whats that and look round, which snaps his focus and lets me get things under control. The only other thing that he focuses on more than other dogs is cats and that reaction is worse.
Again i did nearly 10 months of positive training along side 2 different ADPT trainers and his behaviour in this time got worse, in fact one trainer he walked all over and they had less control over him than me. I could have covered my body in hotdog and run around going eeeeeee and the dog he was focused on would still be more exciting. For a dog that had no socialisation as a pup its not surprising really.
I'm sorry if I'm repeating things you've already tried but our main issue with Bos is when we go on a walk he was already at a 7 or 8 on an excitment scale so we did a lot of work on that, so he firstly started getting excited when I picked his harness and lead up, so I started carrying it all round the house, picking it up putting it down totally desensatizing him to that, then when we were going to put his harness on he got excited so we started putting it on taking it off putting it on taking it off, then walking out the front door walking back in walking out back in etc now this took about 6 weeks of doing this countless times a day and walks started off calmer.
The approaching another dog we got a stooge dog to stand and we'd walk towards it, the minute he started to react we turned and walked briskly in the opposite direction once he calmed we turned around and walked towards the dog, again minute he reacted we turned and walked the other way and so on and so forth. Again it took about 6 weeks of about 30 mins a day of doing this to get to a point where I could be fairly near a dog, however he still can not walk past a dog without loosing it. I've just got a front clip harness which helps as if he lunges he just turns himself round which confuses him enough to give me an element of control. Bos can and does play with dogs but has to be on a longline at all times as if he starts to get overly excited I need to be able to get hold of him and snap his focus (just for the record he only plays with dogs whose owners are FULLY aware of his issues) if excitment is on a scale of 1 to 10 Bos can quite easily reach 12. Having used ADPT trainers I am now looking at a proper behaviourist rather than a glorified trainer.
I have spoken to a couple and they think he is 'fixable' however they have all said it could be a very very long slow process.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> Of everything I've tried... "praise the good, [punish] the bad", is the only system [that] I saw
> any sort of result [from]...


then i wish U good luck, & ta - i'm off. :smile5:


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Cleo38 & Lexiedhb-

The dogs are yours and you are entitled to try whatever training methods that are out there. Although some of us here condone certain methods, it is only because we have seen them in action (I am assuming) and see the results as not as good as what rewards-based training can provide. It is my experience that methods such as shouting/rattle bottles etc., work in as much as shouting at a child works (or any other confrontational act). I believe that a dog's behaviour improves through avoiding the punishment of reacting, rather than improves because they are happy around other dogs, or at least happy enough not to react. 

Another observation is that these types of methods need to be repeated and repeated. Like those who shout at dogs in kennel blocks: they say "The dogs shut up, so it works" yet they seem oblivious to the fact that they have to do it numerous times a day and have been doing for the last X number of days and weeks, possibly months, of having the same dogs! 

So, that's where I am coming from. I don't see them as effective as they appear. I think the short-term benefits can seem very impressive, but in actuality, it has mislead you into thinking that the methods are the right path to go down. 

I also recognise that rewards-based training isn't that easy in these circumstances. Taking the dog out at specific times, keeping distance, preparing treats, holding treats plus lead, plus clicker, plus 30kg dog on the end! And even when you do have relative calm, simply using a method like clicker training requires very good timing for most dogs to show the best improvement. 

However, I honestly believe you are better putting the time into thinking what you need to change to make these methods work more effectively rather than change the method altogether. As the saying goes, 'don't throw the baby out with the bathwater'! Little nuances can make a huge difference. For example, working with a daschund last year, the LAT game wasn't really working for him. However, by teaching a 'Let's go' command, and using it as soon as he saw other dogs, then jogging away and clicking and treating, he came on leaps and bounds. Within a few sessions, he was moving backwards away from the dogs whenever he felt uncomfortable. This is not 'fixed' but it is a damn sight better than it was! So little things can make a huge difference. 

All I can hope is you find a behaviourist competent enough (and its worth spending the money for the best you can get) to really find the best programme for your dog.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

I am going to be totally honest and say that, when it comes to it, I dont have an issue with a few of the "negative" methods.

I have no real issue with check chains - if they are used for their purpose - to check. Not the idiots that have them and let the dog choke itself. 
To me, as a check, it reminds the dog what he should be doing (walking nicely) not pulling to get to whatever or wherever it wants to go.

I have no issue with a bottle of stones - if it doesnt scare the dog silly! If it stops and looks to see what that was, it is a useful distraction when nothing else is getting through to them.

A shout to stop barking is a common occurance in this house and tbh, at 12 yr old (and having been taught the same all his life) he doesnt react if someone is just shouting, only if its directed at him. He then does his sheepish walk back past us and into the house, 2 minutes later, no hard feelings. 

Its how they are used that is the problem IMO, not the actual methods themselves.

*Heidi*


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Have to say, choke chains (I refuse to call them "check" chains) are very high on my list of what NOT to use. 

I don't mind using positive or neutral interuptors, or startle, or NRMs but I do strongly object to causing pain and fear. 

The act of "checking" a dog on a choke chain causes pain and cuts off air supply. I don't give a flying toadstool how mild the pain, or how brief the lack of oxygen - it is inexcusable IMO. 

I'm not a fan of collar yanking anyway to be honest (at what point did we decide that whiplash constituted training?) but on a device that is purposely made to be unlimited slip (capable of cutting of air supply), slender (minimal surface area covered therefore max pressure), and hard / unyielding (as opposed to a soft, squishy rope slip) it is nothing short of cruelty in my opinion.

Sorry that sounds harsh, it is one of my pet hates!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

There have also been studies showing the effects of check/choke chains on a dog's spine. Most have some sort of malformation, even if the the dog isn't in visible discomfort.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> There have also been studies showing the effects of check/choke chains on a dog's spine. Most have some sort of malformation, even if the the dog isn't in visible discomfort.


But I have also read articles & studies regarding the use of head collars & spinal injuires which is why I avoided them for a while.

But despitye Roxy;s dislike of head collars I do now use a gentle leader, we couldn;t have her pulling any loner & this alos gives more control regarding reactivity but .... I still have concerns if she were to lunge forward & although I never yank her head round, what if she did catch a funny angle?

Having had neck/shoulder problems myself I can understand how at times a small movement performed incorrectly can cause a big problem.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Thats why I walk Bosley on a front clip harness as I had him on a dogmatic and at one point I thought he was going to break his neck, literally.

The issue I have is Bosley is NOT aggressive in the common sense is is totally and utterly overexcited by other dogs and he has no idea what to do, once he knows a dog he is calmer however every time a new dog comes along we go back to the origional behaviour, so its making hime realise that he needs to react the same to every dog, but its like a red mist comes over him, and he totally looses who he is where he is what hes doing, using a shaker bottle snaps him out of this little zone he goes into and you can see the look on his face he sort of goes ooh where am i??


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> ...despite Roxy's dislike of headcollars I... use a Gentle Leader, we couldn't have her pulling any longer
> & this also gives more control re reactivity but ... I still have concerns. [What] if she were to lunge forward
> & although I never yank her head round, what if she did catch a funny angle?


keep Ur hands ___Low___ & use gentle, steady traction, not sudden moves. 
it's unlikely [unless she falls off a porch, deck, stairs, etc] that she'll accelerate with such force 
as to injure *her own* neck, as she can feel what she's doing as she does it.

also, STRAIGHT wrists & elbows are the most effective leverage; bent wrists AND elbows = chicken-wings, 
& the handler is then very-weak, as the body-mechanics of that posture are terrible. :nonod:

straight wrists & elbows let U use Ur core-muscles & shoulders, which adds strength & improves balance.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

> As the whining & lunging increased she used to hype herself up even more so I decided to try another trainer & a differing approach. After a couple of 1-2-1 with the new trainer we walked in to the training area & Roxy saw the trainers two dogs sitting, just as she went to kick off the trainer shook a bottle of stones really hard & Roxy stoped, shut up, sat down & looked at me.
> 
> We continued the class & never used the noise again as me saying 'no' each time she whined stopped her. After a few mins she was walking with the two dogs & played with them - no problems


Sorry i am joining this thread very late and this is Probably very late lol the thread has probably meandered to the dog pooing at crufts or something. But regarding the first post and the success of the shock/aversive I just wonder why some trainers are concentrating on stopping something rather then facilitating the dogs inbuilt ability to communicate and be social with other dogs. Made impossible by tight leashes walking by another dog. I think the best cure for many of these problems would be an hours free time with other dogs [safe] often bigger dogs that can easly rebut the aggression without need for drastic recourse . The dogs could be left to run free and the owners and trainers could watch by video link and learn how its done


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

Colette interesting posts do you apply your training methods to clients dogs ? Or your own ? Can you tell me your background in dogs ?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Thanks Lexi Lou for your lengthy response- it does sound like we have two peas in a pod.- Exciteable little sods!! Dex also is not aggressive- I wonder if this is why the totally PR methods do not work, as being excited is not a bad feeling- why would they want to be calm ALL the time? Dex will walk with pretty much any other dog alongside- without reacting. He has also been bitten twice and did not retaliate on either occassion- bless him.
Some really helpful tips in your post, so thank you very much.

LfL- I find it really odd that you quote people and then change what THEY have written to suit you all the time. You have a huge wealth of knowledge but instead of supplying practical tips, just ridicule methods being looked at.

Actually all those massively againist the not so positive methods, have yet to give any practical solutions, with the exception of calmatives which is a route I have already explored. Perhaps my fault for just asking opinions on other methods in the OP.

Check chain- is never going to happen I would have a dog passed out on the end of it the first time he saw another dog.

Thanks for all your responses, it is interesting to hear about experiences from differeing sides.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Jason - that's a curious post...

Any particular reason you have singled me out here? Many of my views on training and behaviour are shared by numerous posters on this forum and aside from giving my opinion on "not so positive methods" inc choke chains (which was the point of this thread), I've said very little about actual methods for you to judge me on...

Do I get a bit more explanation please?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LexiLou2 said:


> Lexie
> Dex sounds like Bosley but at the next level and I too use a shaker bottle with him. Bos when he see's another dog goes into a zone and no matter what you do what food toys etc you have he looses it. He starts to growl bark and lunge and the only way to snap him out of it is surprise him and the rattle of the bottle is the only thing I have found so far that makes him go whoa whats that and look round, which snaps his focus and lets me get things under control.


This is exactly the same with Roxy. At that point no reward is as motivating as getting to the other dog. we also tried using the other dog as the reward but then that takes so long & a) there is only so long a behavioural class lasts for b) if I am out with someone else with a dog then they only have so much time & c) there is onlyu so long a trainiong session of this sort can be without stressing Roxy out.

We never seemed to get to a close distance where she could meet the dog despite (as I said ) over a year of trying. Also if she did get herself worked up when we were out (& therefore I had no control over who had their dog where) then there was the risk that the OTT excitement would tip in to aggression & then what dog owner would want their dog to meet a barking, lunging, GSD? :huh:

Am glad you found something that works & gets Bosley out of his zone, makes such a difference doesn't it?!


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I find it really interesting that all three people on here that have similar issues and are looking to use similar methods (myself included) all have dogs that are not aggressive in the common sense but are all exceptionally over excitable and the stress caused by this complete overwhelming excitability can cause aggression.
I also find it interesting that all three people all have rescue dogs that were very poorly socialised as pups and that all three people persevered for 12 months with positive training methods and saw no improvement in behaviour (in fact in my case we saw his behaviour get worse) and we have all had more than one trainer.
Bosley can too walk along side dogs and not react it is new dogs we walk past that we have the most serious reaction to but when you have a dog walking towards you on the pavement and you know you have a 3ft (if that) space to walk past this dog you could do without a monster on the end of the lead. 
I have tried the calming methods, the thundershirts, rescue remedy, starting walks off calmer and he can do really really well on a walk no issues then we see another dog and off we go into Bosley world and nothing you do can get him to focus. Even simple things like changing his routine can cause a reaction for example yesterday on our walk normally we play the recall game to work on training however yesterday we decided to play hide and seek and the simple change in routine and a new game was anough to get him so excited he started on Lexi.
On a normal calm ish day Bosley is EXTREMELY food motivated, having been found as a stray starving food is a great motivator, as is squeaky toys, however put a new dog in front of him and you have no chance. And these are not assumptions I have made by myself like I say I have worked with trainers all of whom have said they have never seen a dog who can be as focused (which Bosley can) totally loose all focus entirely.
Its also difficult for me to ignore the bad reward the good as Bosleys reaction to other dog sometimes ends up been taken out on Lexi, in that he will get so frustrated at not been able to get to the dog that he will turn on Lexi, and we have had a couple of scraps like that, in fact Terencesmum has witnessed it as she came to walk Terence I walked out my house Bos took one look at Terence (a dog he knew) got thoroughly over excited realised he couldnt get to Terence and turned and pinned Lexi. In scenarios like that I ignore the bad my other dog is going to end up getting hurt as she will not retaliate.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Aftera few weeks of having Roxy she began to attack Toby in the evenings. I have no idea why she did this (she was vet checked & had a blood tests so no medical reason).

Toby would be asleep, there were no toys involved, no one was getting attention, they were fine in the day, played well together, etc but then these attcks strarted. they cam eout of no where, Roxy would suddenly look up, stiffen then go for poor Toby.

We managed to stop these through leashing Roxy (for Toby's protection ) & to stop these becoming a habit. we used to break up the evening s with short training sessions, etc & things improved.

But if Roxy does get over excited then there is always that risk that she will turn on toby. We had an incident when my sister bought her dog Benson, over one day & the dogs were all playing well together. Things started to get a bit hyper so we bought them in & made them calm down. Roxy still kept on at Benson & was told to sit down. I should have recognised the signs but she had gotten herself so hyped up that she couldn't calm down again went to atatck Toby.

Unfortunately I put my hand out to stop her & ended up getting bitten which shook me up. I was ok, it was only a puncture wound but did show how again her OTT behaviour could tip quite easily. 

That incident was my fault, I should have been more vigilant but I don't want her getting to the point where the excitement tips over, it's not nice for her, me or others. I want to break this habit which I feel I am doing more successfully now.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

So very true- On my own pretty much anywhere- Dex will walk to heel, look at me if i say his name, or "watch me". Can be off lead with fairly reliable recall, and "wait" (either alone or around dogs he knows). He to is seriously food orientated, coming as a stray, also loves a ballie.

We see another dog and it is like a switch is flicked- food? ball? mum? dogs i am walking with? all leave his brain, and all that is left is the NEED to get to the other dog at speed


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> Actually all those massively againist the not so positive methods, *have yet to give any practical solutions*, with the exception of calmatives which is a route I have already explored. Perhaps my fault for just asking opinions on other methods in the OP.


You were given many solutions, namely that sometimes a small tweak in what youre already doing can make a huge difference. However, without seeing you and your dog in person, its very hard to make specific suggestions that would be helpful to your specific situation.

There was just a great example on another thread, a poster said he was having trouble with recall, even mentioned the unmentionable. Then he posted a video of his dog working for him and it became glaringly obvious why he was having recall issues. He is unwittingly, but very effectively conditioning his dog to NOT respond to him and to tune him out. Its not a simple one-step fix that he is going to have to do to get the results he wants, but there is definitely a LOT he can change.

I dont mean to sound condescending, and Im sorry if it comes across that way, but it happens so frequently that an owner says my dog wont stop doing ___ or my dog wont DO ___ only to find out the owner is an unwitting contributing factor in the dogs undesirable behavior. But yet the tendency is still to blame the dog.

I really dont mean to offend with my posts. If the shaker can works well for you and your goals with your dog, thats wonderful, you certainly dont need my approval! But you ASKED for opinions, and opinions are what you got


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> You were given many solutions, namely that sometimes a small tweak in what youre already doing can make a huge difference. However, without seeing you and your dog in person, its very hard to make specific suggestions that would be helpful to your specific situation.
> 
> There was just a great example on another thread, a poster said he was having trouble with recall, even mentioned the unmentionable. Then he posted a video of his dog working for him and it became glaringly obvious why he was having recall issues. He is unwittingly, but very effectively conditioning his dog to NOT respond to him and to tune him out. Its not a simple one-step fix that he is going to have to do to get the results he wants, but there is definitely a LOT he can change.
> 
> ...


Maybe I missed "the many solutions"- other than tweak what you are doing, and use calamatives? There is no- have you tried this, or doing it that way, or this other game, or ABC or even Z. Probably because i did not ask for that originally, and yes it is very hard without the dog in front of you.

Not once have i blamed my dog- he is a product of his unfortunate start in life.

Yes I did ask for opinions, and have thanked all for sharing them above.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

ouesi said:


> You were given many solutions, namely that sometimes a small tweak in what youre already doing can make a huge difference. However, without seeing you and your dog in person, its very hard to make specific suggestions that would be helpful to your specific situation.
> 
> There was just a great example on another thread, a poster said he was having trouble with recall, even mentioned the unmentionable. Then he posted a video of his dog working for him and it became glaringly obvious why he was having recall issues. He is unwittingly, but very effectively conditioning his dog to NOT respond to him and to tune him out. Its not a simple one-step fix that he is going to have to do to get the results he wants, but there is definitely a LOT he can change.
> 
> ...


Just out of interest what is your opinion on Bos, Dex and Roxy, three unrelated dogs of different breeds and ages but very similar background having extremely similar issues. Everything I have read about both Roxy and Dex well I could be writing myself about Bosley. The focus on me when he is on his own is unreal, he came with no training and has been a dream to train as his focus is unreal.......until he sees another dog. We have had a large number of scraps and 4 serious ttacks on Lexi when he has got hyped up.
We hve all gone through a number of trainers and not one of us have seen an improvement, yet two out of three find using a shaker bottle makes the situation easier to handle as it snaps the dog out of the zone they go into.
Do you think that all three of us are making the same mistake, or different mistakes resulting in the same behaviour? I'm just interested (and slightly happy) that three dogs that hve never met and are totally unrelated have such a similat issue. (I'm happy as it means I'm not on my own!!!)


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> Just out of interest what is your opinion on Bos, Dex and Roxy, three unrelated dogs of different breeds and ages but very similar background having extremely similar issues. Everything I have read about both Roxy and Dex well I could be writing myself about Bosley. The focus on me when he is on his own is unreal, he came with no training and has been a dream to train as his focus is unreal.......until he sees another dog. We have had a large number of scraps and 4 serious ttacks on Lexi when he has got hyped up.
> We hve all gone through a number of trainers and not one of us have seen an improvement, yet two out of three find using a shaker bottle makes the situation easier to handle as it snaps the dog out of the zone they go into.
> Do you think that all three of us are making the same mistake, or different mistakes resulting in the same behaviour? I'm just interested (and slightly happy) that three dogs that hve never met and are totally unrelated have such a similat issue. (I'm happy as it means I'm not on my own!!!)


I too would be interested to hear opinions on that.
Also if it is all about handler error how come both yours and Cleo's other dogs do not behave in this manner.?


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

All 4 of my dogs are products of an unfortunate start in life. Rescues and rejects and sloppy seconds. The two we got as puppies started out rough and unsocialized. My male dane was slated to be euthanized by the shelter because of his aggression, the black dog in the videos came to us because he was killing chickens in his other home, despite the owners having tried everything including beating the living daylights out of him. I can tell you that for a dog like him, a shaker can would do absolutely nothing. In fact knowing him, he would have probably attacked the shaker can too. 

I know for a fact that black dog received NO socialization early in life. Like the 3 dogs here you speak of, he is excitable to a fault (the kind of dog who will zero in on something and literally scream if he cant get to it) and will re-direct on to another dog if left to his own devices. I joke that the reason he is as well trained as he is, is because he is my biggest problem child. 

We spent over a year working on his focus and engagement with me using many of the exercises in the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt. The other book Ive really found useful is When Pigs Fly by Jane Killion. 
Basically rather than trying to take his energy and drive and stop it, we instead channel it in to something more useful. 
I am also a huge Susan Garrett fan. Her tricks for dealing with drivey dogs are invaluable IMO. And her attitude is fantastic. She has innumerable games and tricks for developing impulse control and self control. Definitely worth reading her blogs and articles.

In the end though its always between you and your dog. If youre happy with the results of your method(s) of choice it shouldnt matter what anyone else thinks. But the fact that you are asking for opinions and feeling defensive about some of the responses tells me that there is niggling doubt in your mind. 

Rottiefan makes a very valid point too. Often these methods appear to work far better than they really do. The behavior stops, yes, but the dogs need/desire to act out is still there, its simply suppressed. For now. Dont be surprised if out of the blue a new behavior crops up that is more troublesome than the one you suppressed with the shaker can. I speak from experience BTW as I am a crossover trainer. BTDT


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanks for your response. Ill put a very specific scenario to you now and Id be interested to know how you would react in the situation.
Bosley if he cant get to the other dog tends to take his frustration out on whatever is nearest, that could be Lexi or alternatively his lead.
I have tried a chain link lead and he nearly broke his teeth, on the advice of the vet we went back to a fabric lead.

So you walk past another dog and he grabs his lead and pulls and chews. So far we have tried stopping moving and just standing still and ignoring him. I once stood in the same spot for near on half an hour just ignoring him and he still continued.
We have tried taking hold of his harness and dropping his lead so there is no tension on the lead, he will continue to attack his lead, he will stop after about 10 mins or so but as soon as you pick it back up he starts again.
We tried just continuing and ignoring the behaviour, so I walked for best part of an hour with a dog pulling on his lead like a tug toy (I only tried this once).
I have tried getting his focus back with treats and a toy but no luck he ignores everything.
The current method is a firm yank on the lead out of his mouth and sharp No which seems to be working slowly, but this to me isnt a positive training method. So what would your suggestion be.
For the record I stuck to each of the methods listed about consistently for 6 weeks.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> I too would be interested to hear opinions on that.
> Also if it is all about handler error how come both yours and Cleo's other dogs do not behave in this manner.?


Sorry, missed these posts when I was typing the other. Will come back later and respond more fully. 
Basically though, its a high drive dog thing IMO. Nothing described in this thread is at all unusual for a high drive dog without direction and impulse control.

Why do the other dogs not behave this way? Because theyre different dogs.
Give a new owner a basset hound and a belgian malinois to raise and then come back in a year and see if one of the two developed issues. My moneys on the malinois.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

LexiLou2 said:


> Thanks for your response. I'll put a very specific scenario to you now and I'd be interested to know how you would react in the situation.
> Bosley if he can't get to the other dog tends to take his frustration out on whatever is nearest, that could be Lexi or alternatively his lead.
> I have tried a chain link lead and he nearly broke his teeth, on the advice of the vet we went back to a fabric lead.
> 
> ...


Again, don't have a bunch of time but quickly, I would not expect ignoring to work on a self-rewarding behavior. Tugging is fun, ignoring it isn't going to make it less fun. If the dog is that motivated to tug, direct the tugging on to a specific tug toy that he only gets as a reward (which might work better than food when he is amped up) and for management in the meantime, get a chain metal leash 

Edit, missed the part where he was breaking his teeth on the lead! No, don't break his teeth! Have a separate tug and condition it as a reward, work on tug and out without distractions and get a really fabulous out with it. Then when he gets amped, offer the tug instead of the lead, REWARD him for choosing the tug instead - this is interaction with YOU and this is what you want, NOT interaction with the distraction. When he is able, ask for an out and immediately reward him by allowing him to tug again. The faster he outs the faster he gets to play again. Even if you're not interested in bite sports, there are some fabulous trainers out there who can show you some neat things to do with tug to re-direct frustration.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

if you go into a school you will see many different ways to keep discipline. 
You`ve got the `let them do more or less what they want in the hope they`ll be grateful` teachers. 
The `shout loudly and carry a big stick` teachers
the `punish the little beggars into submission` teachers 
and the `let`s work out how this child learns and use that method` teachers. 
They all work to some extent. 
Which class would you like your child in?


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

But if it comes down to dog breeds then my dog with no issues is a staffie, Lexies dog with issues is a staffie x and I'm pretty sure both Cleos dogs are GSD's so surely Toby should have the same issues as Roxy and Lexi should have the same issues as Dex if its all down to handler error. And for that matter both mine are terriers and Lexi has a very high drive, it is just controlled better, she has self control where as Bos has none. 
If I come across as arguementative I am really sorry, I don't mean to be I am genuinely interested in a different angle on this. As anyone that has met Bos knows he is a handful, that said a nubmer of people met his last year before his behaviour developed as we went to a fun dog show thing and he was fine and a couple of people have seen him recently where there is no way I could take him somewhere like that anymore.
I am working SO hard to try and improve his behviousr so I appriciate any comments really.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> if you go into a school you will see many different ways to keep discipline.
> You`ve got the `let them do more or less what they want in the hope they`ll be grateful` teachers.
> The `shout loudly and carry a big stick` teachers
> the `punish the little beggars into submission` teachers
> ...


But what happends if the "lets work out how this child learns and use that method" teachers declare your child unteachable? Whic his what has happened to all three of us. I'm guessing all three of use would love to use a positive training method that worked, but when you have been basically told that there is nothing they can do further than what has been done you do get disheartened.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> But what happends if the "lets work out how this child learns and use that method" teachers declare your child unteachable? Whic his what has happened to all three of us. I'm guessing all three of use would love to use a positive training method that worked, but when you have been basically told that there is nothing they can do further than what has been done you do get disheartened.


Or your child does not want to learn because it is busy looking at the butterflies out the window, and nothing else within the class room is as interesting as said butterflies?

I do wonder if a form of ADHD exists within the dog world


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

LexiLou2 said:


> Bosley if he cant get to the other dog tends to take his frustration out on whatever is nearest, that could be Lexi or alternatively his lead.
> I have tried a chain link lead and he nearly broke his teeth, on the advice of the vet we went back to a fabric lead.
> 
> So you walk past another dog and he grabs his lead and pulls and chews. So far we have tried stopping moving and just standing still and ignoring him. I once stood in the same spot for near on half an hour just ignoring him and he still continued.
> ...


I would make sure you are 1) doing loads of impulse control exercises, like those in Control Unleashed or, for example, Dr Overall's Relaxation Protocol, religiously; 2) make sure your walks are in an environment where you can control distance easily (although I understand this is difficult); and 3) _teach your dog to tug on command!_

If you put the problem behaviour on cue, you have more chance of controlling things. Likewise, if your dog's impulse control improves in general, you have more chance of controlling the behaviours. Start by tugging other things, then go to leads, teach a 'Tug' and 'No Tug' cue, making sure that a 'No tug!' cue is followed by something also very good, e.g. a tug on a different toy or some high-value food.



LexiLou2 said:


> But if it comes down to dog breeds then my dog with no issues is a staffie, Lexies dog with issues is a staffie x and I'm pretty sure both Cleos dogs are GSD's so surely Toby should have the same issues as Roxy and Lexi should have the same issues as Dex if its all down to handler error. And for that matter both mine are terriers and Lexi has a very high drive, it is just controlled better, she has self control where as Bos has none.


It's not just your dogs that are like this, so I wouldn't start looking for specific correlations between your dogs and the problem behaviours. Thousands of dogs develop issues like these purely because of their socialisation and lack of training/appropriate training.

It is typical of dogs in rescue centres to be uncontrollable when they get stressed, or distressed. The rescue environment makes the part of their autonomic nervous system crap at inhibiting the release of stress hormones, so when they get overstimulated and large amounts of stress hormone are released, then the inhibitory system is largely ineffective. A long history of this can mean dogs will develop these types of issues, depending on other factors of course too.

I have seen many dogs with these types of issues, all of different breeds.

This is why I think it is so important to retrain your dogs' biological system to handle the more stressful situations using systematic desensitisation and impulse control exercises. But, alas, no one says it easy


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

Sorry colette im new here should i have sent a private message? I thort your post was impessive very agreeable i just wondered what it takes to be a vip member my girlfriend works with you maybe you could lend some advice do you work with dogs part time what breeds do you own? I notice your name on my gf facebook


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> But what happends if the "lets work out how this child learns and use that method" teachers declare your child unteachable? Whic his what has happened to all three of us. I'm guessing all three of use would love to use a positive training method that worked, but when you have been basically told that there is nothing they can do further than what has been done you do get disheartened.


Happened to me too although Ruperts main problem was fear rather than excitement. I was told he was untrainable by several trainers and a behaviourist. It would be quicker to list what I didn't try over the years rather than what I did try 

I have the excitement problem with Spencer but thankfully the distance he reacts at is quite small, he can handle seeing a dog across the road and while he gets excited it isn't over the top. It's when we have to pass one on the field that he has what I can only describe as a temper tantrum. Barking and lunging and hurling himself around. Pure frustration coz he can't greet the other dog. If he's allowed to greet (after a moment of sitting quietly) he's fine and calms down.

Rupe though fixated on a speck in the distance that might possibly be another dog and sounds that might possibly indicate another dog nearby. And he wanted to kill them, not play.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

Rottiefan said:


> *I would make sure you are 1) doing loads of impulse control exercises, like those in Control Unleashed or, for example, Dr Overall's Relaxation Protocol, religiously; 2) make sure your walks are in an environment where you can control distance easily (although I understand this is difficult); and 3) teach your dog to tug on command!
> 
> If you put the problem behaviour on cue, you have more chance of controlling things. Likewise, if your dog's impulse control improves in general, you have more chance of controlling the behaviours. Start by tugging other things, then go to leads, teach a 'Tug' and 'No Tug' cue, making sure that a 'No tug!' cue is followed by something also very good, e.g. a tug on a different toy or some high-value food.*
> 
> ...


Yes to all of this!
The bolded is very much how we have worked with our own problem child. Impulse control, impulse control, impulse control. I can't stress it enough, but stupidly I have gotten to where I don't mention it enough. 
Mainly because every time I do suggest impulse control exercises, I get smart aleck answers about how is something like crate games or default leave its going to help me with leash lunging.

I got similar treatment here after showing the LAT video. Yet that is exactly what games like LAT do, they help the dog practice impulse control, they put the distraction behavior on cue, and they redirect the dog's hyper focus on to something more manegeable and useful to the owner.

"Control Unleashed" is chock full of impulse control exercises, all of which help the dog deal with distractions in different situations. But its an entire program, not just one situational exercise. You build the control and the focus over time, gradually increasing the difficulty as the dog gains more and more proficiency.
Here there are many training clubs that offer "focus and control" classes or "reactive dog" classes that use the exercises in CU. I'm sure there are similar in the UK no?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

So you would do these exercises without success (perhaps because you do not have the equipment/stooge dogs to complete ALL the exercises 100%) continuously, even though you see no improvement? As i did.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> So you would do these exercises without success (perhaps because you do not have the equipment/stooge dogs to complete ALL the exercises 100%) continuously, even though you see no improvement? As i did.


Do you own the book "Control Unleashed"?
What exercises in the book have you done?
How were the exercises not successful?
Did you start in a non distracting environment?
Were you successful in a non distracting environment?
Did you build distractions slowly, only as the dog gained proficiency?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Do you own the book "Control Unleashed"?
> What exercises in the book have you done?
> How were the exercises not successful?
> Did you start in a non distracting environment?
> ...


Would I be asking if I did not own the book? jeez- again Im not stupid.:huh:
We did many of the exercises- massaging- (with Ttouch actually), calm time etc, reorientation to me, heel work, his mat, fast turn around, general obedience- leave it, sit, down, stay, come etc etc LAT, and "theres a dog in ya face- although was not intending to do this one.

Can do all of this in house, then garden, and some outside- UNTIL there is a dog- at whatever distance

In an ideal world i would have had a whole heap of people/dogs/noises/ etc to introduce very carefully using barriers like she mentions in the book 
- sadly i do not, I live in a real area with real things going on, in a fairly busy place so potentially this is my downfall- i can not predict where or when a distraction will appear- not vast amounts I can do about that unfortunately. So the exercises were not successful in that outside in the presence of a dog, i could not make any progress.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lack of stooge dogs, controlled environment and lack of equipment was a huge problem for us too. It's all very well if you've got a ton of people willing to help or a class geared around this sort of thing but when you're going it alone it really can be a problem making the step from doing it with no dogs around to doing it with dogs around. This is the sort of thing I never managed to get across to people who would just say "you need to start at a distance where he doesn't react". That's all fine and dandy but getting that in the real world can be almost impossible never mind getting it often enough to make progress. Especially if your dog reacts at a large distance.

I used CU with Rupert and am using it with Spencer. I think it's great but like everything else it's not much use if you can't set up the situations to practice at a level where your dog can be successful.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Yes to all of this!
> The bolded is very much how we have worked with our own problem child. Impulse control, impulse control, impulse control. I can't stress it enough, but stupidly I have gotten to where I don't mention it enough.
> Mainly because every time I do suggest impulse control exercises, I get smart aleck answers about how is something like crate games or default leave its going to help me with leash lunging.
> 
> ...


It was these classes specifically for reactive dogs that Roxy & I attended & made very little (if any) progress.



Lexiedhb said:


> Would I be asking if I did not own the book? jeez- again Im not stupid.:huh:
> We did many of the exercises- massaging- (with Ttouch actually), calm time etc, reorientation to me, heel work, his mat, fast turn around, general obedience- leave it, sit, down, stay, come etc etc LAT, and "theres a dog in ya face- although was not intending to do this one.
> 
> *Can do all of this in house, then garden, and some outside- UNTIL there is a dog- at whatever distance*
> ...


Same here. We were lucky in that we live & walk in an area where we don't meet many dogs; good in that we had few offlead dogs bounding over to her whilst she was on her lead but bad in that I had to drive & seek out places to take her to.

We practise outside in the garden, few distractions then built up until we were on walks. Same as with our recall training in that we took small steps. But, as you say, in the outside world it's very difficult to predict when a distraction will appear!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I can not find within an hours drive a class that caters for the reactive/ problem dog.

Glad it is not just me with the CU stuff- Im sure with the right environment it works perfectly - I also have the issue of this dog being VERY high energy- not exercising/ taking him out him is not an option.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Lack of stooge dogs, controlled environment and lack of equipment was a huge problem for us too. It's all very well if you've got a ton of people willing to help or a class geared around this sort of thing but when you're going it alone it really can be a problem making the step from doing it with no dogs around to doing it with dogs around. This is the sort of thing I never managed to get across to people who would just say "you need to start at a distance where he doesn't react". That's all fine and dandy but getting that in the real world can be almost impossible never mind getting it often enough to make progress. Especially if your dog reacts at a large distance.
> 
> I used CU with Rupert and am using it with Spencer. I think it's great but like everything else it's not much use if you can't set up the situations to practice at a level where your dog can be successful.


One of the trainers stooge dogs was scared of Roxy


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> One of the trainers stooge dogs was scared of Roxy


Yeah, that's something I encountered a few times with Rupert and other dogs. I guess they could tell he was deadly serious and didn't want any part of it. Then there were some on the other extreme, constantly offering appeasement signals to him and this made him extremely uncomfortable and more reactive towards them.

Not being able to drive hindered me as it meant I was limited in regards to what classes or trainers I could go to and limited in where I could walk Rupert. We mostly stuck to street walks so we encountered less off leash dogs but it also meant I often had no chance of getting enough distance that he didn't react to another dog.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Yeah, that's something I encountered a few times with Rupert and other dogs. I guess they could tell he was deadly serious and didn't want any part of it. Then there were some on the other extreme, constantly offering appeasement signals to him and this made him extremely uncomfortable and more reactive towards them.
> 
> Not being able to drive hindered me as it meant I was limited in regards to what classes or trainers I could go to and limited in where I could walk Rupert. We mostly stuck to street walks so we encountered less off leash dogs but it also meant I often had no chance of getting enough distance that he didn't react to another dog.


You can't win really can you?! Where we live means we don't meet many dogs full stop but then again I don't have to worry about nebgative encounters of off lead dogs worrying her when she's leashed!

The other problem is that where we are is very flat so if someone is approaching you can see them for ages, which obvuously just heightens her arousal. At a distance I can do some exercises but as they approach that's when things get trickier.

I can drive & am willing to travel almost) anywhere but although we have seen two behaviourists (recommended) I have (until recently) found someone who has been able to help with purely PR techniques.

The person we see now is different in his approch of rewarding the good but we don't ignore the bad although it still is mainly PR & using distraction techniques, etc.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> Would I be asking if I did not own the book? jeez- again Im not stupid.:huh:


It was a genuine question. How does that turn in to me implying you are stupid?

I'm sorry but it is not worth it for me to interact with you if you are going to go off on me any time I try to find out more information about you, your dog, and your situation, in order to help you with your dog.

Either you want help and are open to suggestions, or you want validation that you are justified in your choices. I can't help you with the latter


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

What an interesting thread.
Even though I haven't got a reactive dog, I have met Bosley several times. He is incredibly focused on Nicki (LexiLou2) and probably one of the most focused dogs I have seen. What Nicki has managed to teach him since he moved in is impressive.
We have also been on the receiving end of Bos's attention. He has got carried away when seeing Terence and on a couple of occasions pinned Terence down. He doesn't really seem to matter what you do, he doesn't seem to be able to snap out of this super excited state. And there doesn't seem to be much warning. They could be walking along each other nicely for a while and then, when it comes to playing, he just loses it a bit. I don't know if that is helpful. I just know that Nicki has been working incredibly hard with Bos and deserves some credit. 

Out of interest: how long do these various approaches usually take to work?


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

I will fidn the time to read through the whole thread soon,,,, but I hadvnt so far so forgive me if Im going over old ground. 

When it comes to training methods... it is good to consider what things we train our dogs for. 

Training a dog usually falls into two categories. 
1 Training a dog to do something that we wish it to do. 
2 Training a dog to stop doing something we dont wish it to do. 

Without exception I believe it is possible to teach ALL things that fall into category 1, using positive only methods. 

With some exceptions it is usually most easily achieved, and quicker, to teach category 2 activities, using other than positive methods. 

For instance, when I rehomed Mirk, an ex sheep dog, 12 years ols, lived in a shed or on a chain all his life.. I needed him to learn VERY quickly that walking onto the hearth when the fire was lit was NOT a safe idea. I couldnt afford the risk to him, if he didnt learn that fires are dangerous straight away. So it was a negative association method that I used. Now it might have been possible to teach him using other positive methods to avoid the fire, but it wouldnt have been possilbe to do it quickly enough and in my view PERMANENTLY enough. 

There are many out there who push for positive only and I admire their intentions, but the reality of the situations that we all live in, means that sometimes, an aversive association (and im not taliing about resoirting to ecollars or the like) is the best way forward. 

If it works, it works. And if it saves or improves a dogs life. then thats brilliant. 

I would liek to state here that all training i of obedience and agility and HTM work at CaDeLac is lure and reward based. ALl of our clients are encouraged to use food and or toyse to train and build their relationship. We promote the early and prolonged use of hand feeding to build relationships, tug toy to enerate attention and fun and food to generate motivation. However, in ourt behaviour clinics, we do and have used and always will use negative associations (like looking down a dogs ear canal) to deter unwanted behaviours and noise assoiation to stop life threatening behaviours. We also use poacks of dogs to help rehab dog aggression cases and they too (the pack dogs) use aversive techniques like barking, growling, and pushing, postuting etc....to teach unsocialised dogs what is and isnt allowed! 

Interesting idea for a thread. Brave also


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm not going to stop what I'm doing regarding the interruptwer (although it's still only been once so far!) but I am interested in the comments & suggestions as I'm not close minded! I'll google Susan Garrett as she sounds interesting, I'm off work today so have a bit of time.

One thing I really would like explained more though is the LAT game as we were fine again at a distance but we could never pass a certain point. If I waited for Roxy to return her gaze to me then I had a long wait & by that time she would be hyoper & stressed.

Certain behaviours of hers I have (felt I had) to interrupt as she will only stop once exhausted. At first she was quite stressed on walks so would dig, compulsively if we ever stopped. if we kept walking she fine. I filmed her once for the behaviourist. she dug compulsively & manically, not looking at me or anything else, just dug until she could dig no more then nearly fell asleep.

Again, no distraction worked once she started this so again I stopped her from starting. No digging at all when we stopped. Instead she would get a toy that we were trying to get her interrested in or a treat then we would move off again so the stops were only brief. This didn't take too long to break the habit & although she still likes to dig (usually right in the middle of the lawn!) it's 'normal' digging to bury her bone or to dig up some poor mouse she can smell.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> It was a genuine question. How does that turn in to me implying you are stupid?
> 
> I'm sorry but it is not worth it for me to interact with you if you are going to go off on me any time I try to find out more information about you, your dog, and your situation, in order to help you with your dog.
> 
> Either you want help and are open to suggestions, or you want validation that you are justified in your choices. I can't help you with the latter


of course i an open to suggestions. I did say i had read the book previously on this thread. Difficult to do without a copy. Like i said i do not have the ability to control the environment 100 percent of the time. Dont believe i have gone off at all.Ask me ANYTHING you like- I dont need validation as I have not as yet used anything other than PR systems.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

The main issue I have is once Bos knows dog he stops reacting to it, and I unfrotunately don't have a limitless supply of dogs to keep introducing him to. Its hard as its the people walking past on the street that he reacts to and its those that see a barking lunging dog and hurry on by, and the 'hurrying' just seems to make him more frantic. Bos does not react to Terence on lead at all....he may take it out on Lexi but he doesn't react to Terence, off lead well thats a different matter. If walking in a larger group of dogs he doesn't react to other dogs, in fact the only dog and I mean the ONLY dog he seems to have any form of respect for is sleeping_lions Indie, who put him right in his place and he daren't do anything naughty with Indie around. Infact I may just steal Indie and it will solve my issues.

As a side note - Thank you Steph


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> The main issue I have is once Bos knows dog he stops reacting to it, and I unfrotunately don't have a limitless supply of dogs to keep introducing him to.


Rupert was the same. If he saw a dog regularly and it never got to him he'd start to ignore it completely. And at this point could be introduced safely if the dog was friendly. However it never generalised to strange dogs and if he saw a dog he knew in a different situation he'd react to it until it got within a few feet, then he'd recognise it and be fine.

Once he knew a dog he was completely non aggressive, would take corrections from them and be extremely submissive. He just had no clue how to interact properly though.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Oh my god my dog really p*sses me off sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!!
A tuggy toy was one thing I hadn't tried as a 'distraction' with Bos so took one out on the walk tonight, he was like a coiled spring and after seeing a black lab got all wound up and started on Lexi so go the tuggy out, he launched himself at me grabbed the tuggy tugged and tugged would NOT let go then as Lexi came over to investigate had a 'proper' go at her.
So the idea of the tuggy works really well as a distraction except he becomes really possesive over it, so got back home in the garden and thought I'll do 10 mins training with him with the tuggy, played and dropped every time on command, brought Lexi outside again no issues no possessiveness, went back onto the field both dogs on lead all good no possessiveness, let Lexi off lead leaving Bos on lead again all good no possessiveness.........let Bosley off lead and all hell breaks loose again............sometimes I just want to give up


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LexiLou2 said:


> Oh my god my dog really p*sses me off sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!!
> A tuggy toy was one thing I hadn't tried as a 'distraction' with Bos so took one out on the walk tonight, he was like a coiled spring and after seeing a black lab got all wound up and started on Lexi so go the tuggy out, he launched himself at me grabbed the tuggy tugged and tugged would NOT let go then as Lexi came over to investigate had a 'proper' go at her.
> So the idea of the tuggy works really well as a distraction except he becomes really possesive over it, so got back home in the garden and thought I'll do 10 mins training with him with the tuggy, played and dropped every time on command, brought Lexi outside again no issues no possessiveness, went back onto the field both dogs on lead all good no possessiveness, let Lexi off lead leaving Bos on lead again all good no possessiveness.........let Bosley off lead and all hell breaks loose again............sometimes I just want to give up


LOL, see with Roxy she has to have something in her mouth as a calming aid. When she gets excited the first thing she does is look round for something to shove in her mouth. If she can't find a toy then it will be a tea towel or a shoe!

I sometimes think that I should let her carry this at all times but then if she does meet a dog & it looked at her toy then what ?  Then the resource guarding may come out ....


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2012)

LexiLou2 said:


> Oh my god my dog really p*sses me off sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!!
> A tuggy toy was one thing I hadn't tried as a 'distraction' with Bos so took one out on the walk tonight, he was like a coiled spring and after seeing a black lab got all wound up and started on Lexi so go the tuggy out, he launched himself at me grabbed the tuggy tugged and tugged would NOT let go then as Lexi came over to investigate had a 'proper' go at her.
> So the idea of the tuggy works really well as a distraction except he becomes really possesive over it, so got back home in the garden and thought I'll do 10 mins training with him with the tuggy, played and dropped every time on command, brought Lexi outside again no issues no possessiveness, went back onto the field both dogs on lead all good no possessiveness, let Lexi off lead leaving Bos on lead again all good no possessiveness.........let Bosley off lead and all hell breaks loose again............sometimes I just want to give up


To me this is asking a LOT of the dog.
Its your first attempt at using a tug yes? You had success in that he chose the tug over the black lab yes? So that is a victory!

Outing the tug is a separate issue.
Possessiveness over the tug is a separate issue.
On-lead impulse control is separate from off-leash impulse control.
Dog as distraction on-leash is different from dog as distraction off-leash.

These are all different things to the dog so you have to train and proof them on their own, otherwise you will confuse and frustrate the dog (and yourself).

Another thing to remember is to try to always end on a success. There is such a temptation to push it if you are having success but that it NOT what you want to do. It sets both you and the dog up to fail, as you saw. Bos was a good boy with out in the garden, you brought Lexi out and he was still a good boy, so you pushed it more and more until he made a mistake. How frustrating for both of you no? Instead, next time, have a great tug session with him alone, praise him massively and be done. Do this over and over giving him every chance to be right. This will build his desire to play with you, work with you. After a few weeks of this, THEN youre ready to add a dog as a distraction. After he is successful with that repeatedly for weeks, THEN you take the show on the road so to speak... Instead you did it all in one afternoon - the first time he tried the tug. Thats asking a lot, and could even potentially create a negative association with the tug.

This is a Susan Garrett article about how to build distractions that explains more of what Im trying to say:
Distraction Work in Dog Training: A Conversation Between Friends | Susan Garrett&#039;s Dog Training Blog


> Imagine if you are having a conversation with your friend, they ask you a question and you give a brilliant answer, you are feeling kind of proud of yourself with your insightful answer! Immediately after you respond your friends says Aaah, yeah but . . .  and challenges you further on the subject. You are confused, because you thought your first answer was pretty darn good, so you re-formulate your words and give you friend a new answer. Once again they immediately come back at you, pushing you more Okay, sure but . . . Doesnt this start to feel a little antagonistic? Dont you feel a little deflated and frustrated by your friend?
> (....)
> Distraction training is meant to be a playful banter back and forth between friends, not a one sided cross-examination. It is meant to be fun for everyone. You ask a question, you evaluate the quality of the answer and you respond appropriately, laughing is recommended during this exchange because that is what friends do when they talk to each other.
> 
> Please consider this the next time you want to work control behaviours with your dog. Training this way works, it really does work and is is incredibly fun for all involved!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

so none of us reward-based weenies have given any practical advice, eh?  ~sigh.

_If this were *my* dog, or *my client's* dog, this is what i'd do:_

i'd use a FRONT-clipped H-harness to manage this dog, & begin happily habituating the dog to 
a headcollar, teaching *the dog* to put the headcollar on their own face from day-1; it takes, 
on average, 7-days from 1st-introduction to the first USE of the headcollar, with a leash on it - 
& that 1st-walk is usually no more than 5-minutes duration, & often shorter.

Happily wearing the headcollar is a goal-behavior, not an immediate-Mgmt tool.
Muzzle Training - YouTube

the ACD in this video is quite leery of BOTH the basket-muzzle *and* the stranger - 
Desensitization to basket muzzle - YouTube

i'd start DS/CC immediately & keep the dog under-threshold,

i'd use at least 3 calmatives [1 oral, 1 olfactory, 1 tactile] as described here - 
post #22 on the thread: http://www.petforums.co.uk/1457713-post22.html

i'd start a NILIF program with "sit" as the legal tender for *every* want & *every* need,

i'd begin teaching *instantaneous focus on the handler* at the sound of her/his Sacred Name... 
and i'd *change that name* if it's tainted - poisoned cues are worse than useless;

i'd start to use Control Unleashed / 'look at that' / games, & begin to teach impulse control, 
using relax on a mat, 'Go WILD! - & Freeze', flirt-poles, tuggees, etc.

Overall's *deference* protocol & *relaxation* protocol would both be helpful, IME. 
'Desensitization to activities at the door' probly wouldn't hurt, for extra credit.  
What is Behavior Modification? | K9aggression.com

in addition
since THIS PARTICULAR DOG is highly visually-reactive, i'd use a Calming-Cap to fuzz the focus 
of anything over 6-ft away.

anyone can, of course, do precisely as they wish with their own dogs; this is a basic plan 
that *I* would use, or recommend to a client.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> *so none of us reward-based weenies have given any practical advice, eh? :*rolleyes: ~sigh.
> 
> _If this were *my* dog, or *my client's* dog, this is what i'd do:_
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I (& from what I have read Lexie) have & already do!! After a year of these 'games' LAT, etc she is STILL reactive. The headcollar just gives me more control when she does kick off

I have upped the NILIF method, which defintely works with Roxy but, so far, the noise interrupter has worked so, for us this is a success.

As I have said when out in the real world it impossible to keep all triggers at a distance so the noise interrupter (bottle of stones in my case) would be used in situation like this. IMO this is better for both of us than to have Roxy get herself in to such a state


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> so none of us reward-based weenies have given any practical advice, eh?  ~sigh.
> 
> _If this were *my* dog, or *my client's* dog, this is what i'd do:_
> 
> ...


But LfL- up until this post, apart from the calmatives suggestions, no there had been no practical suggestions- you are missing the point. I did ALL this with the exceptions of the calming cap and Overalls relaxation protocol.

I took 3 weeks to get him used to a headcollar- longer with a muzzle- he will happily wear both. I have tried many many many calamatives- as described before, and worked through much of the CU stuff Im asking for ideas when this does not work in the real world (I'll accept probably due to the fact i can not control the environment 110%)- what is plan B)?


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I appreciate I probably pushed him a little too far yesterday and admittedly it is the first time I have used a tug toy but not the first time I have used a toy as a distraction method so already have the basics established. I will continue to work with him with it, however the issue I have is the other distraction toy I used was a squeaky ball, this worked really really well for about a week 10 days then the ball became boring and uninteresting, so if I persevere with the tuggy how do I stop it becoming boring? Also how do I eventually wean him off it, I dont want a dog growling and tugging on a tug toy every time he has to walk past a dog, I am happy to use this method but surely it is only a distraction it isnt actually facing the issue?

Ive done LAT and it works well at a distance, however we did LAT over a 10  12 week period and we were never able to decrease the distance without him reacting.

NILIF I already do religiously, my dogs do not get anything without doing something for me first, and as already said Bosley has amazing focus when its just me and him, to be fair to him his focus in the house and garden and in a training environment is 100% I can not fault him in any way, however the excitement of being out on a walk completely takes over, I have done a lot of focus work on walks and now have a 100% recall without distraction, and I demand his attention at all times, Ill recall him a number of times, sometimes releasing him immediately sometimes asking for a sit stay, sometimes asking him to walk close for 5 steps, 10 steps, we play hide and seek games, we will walk and if they dogs run ahead change direction l to keep them aware of where we are and what we are doing. All of this he does amazing, hos focus is so much better than Lexis, Lexi does it all because well she gets hotdog, Bosley doe sit because he LOVES to work, however you put another dog around and its like a different dog, it is a battle to get any form of focus and if that dog continues to come closer well I loose him all together. I can not find anything that remains more exciting than another dog and as said in an ideal world I would love to work up slowly but I cant control the environment outside and every time he reacts its a step backwards.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LexiLou2 said:


> I appreciate I probably pushed him a little too far yesterday and admittedly it is the first time I have used a tug toy but not the first time I have used a toy as a distraction method so already have the basics established. I will continue to work with him with it, however the issue I have is the other distraction toy I used was a squeaky ball, this worked really really well for about a week 10 days then the ball became boring and uninteresting, so if I persevere with the tuggy how do I stop it becoming boring? Also how do I eventually wean him off it, I dont want a dog growling and tugging on a tug toy every time he has to walk past a dog, I am happy to use this method but surely it is only a distraction it isnt actually facing the issue?
> 
> Ive done LAT and it works well at a distance, however we did LAT over a 10  12 week period and we were never able to decrease the distance without him reacting.
> 
> NILIF I already do religiously, my dogs do not get anything without doing something for me first, and as already said Bosley has amazing focus when its just me and him, to be fair to him his focus in the house and garden and in a training environment is 100% I can not fault him in any way, however the excitement of being out on a walk completely takes over, I have done a lot of focus work on walks and now have a 100% recall without distraction, and I demand his attention at all times, Ill recall him a number of times, sometimes releasing him immediately sometimes asking for a sit stay, sometimes asking him to walk close for 5 steps, 10 steps, we play hide and seek games, we will walk and if they dogs run ahead change direction l to keep them aware of where we are and what we are doing. All of this he does amazing, hos focus is so much better than Lexis, Lexi does it all because well she gets hotdog, Bosley doe sit because he LOVES to work, however you put another dog around and its like a different dog, it is a battle to get any form of focus and if that dog continues to come closer well I loose him all together. I can not find anything that remains more exciting than another dog and as said in an ideal world I would love to work up slowly but I cant control the environment outside and every time he reacts its a step backwards.


See that's brilliant that you are able to have such focus & a really good recall - we are still working on that!!

The other day Roxy managed to walk past 6 moor hens who scooted across the river (she loves them!). She walked to heel despite REALLY wanting to chase them. She was brilliant so got her reward of a squeaky kong tennis ball (she LOVES these). I was so pleased with her (although I doubt we could have done this had the moor hens been hares ... or other dogs!)

With Roxy, she only gets a squeaky tennis ball for doing something really good. She's allowed to have it for a min or so then she has to give it up. It costs me a bloody fortune in these as she manages to destroy them so easily.

I never managed to get her interested in a rtugging toy when out, at home she will play this but not bothered when out. I soaked the toy in gravy or smeared cheese on it, etc but she just wasn't interested & I ended up with a jacket with stinking pockets!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> so none of us reward-based weenies have given any practical advice, eh?  ~sigh.
> 
> _If this were *my* dog, or *my client's* dog, this is what i'd do:_
> 
> ...


And if all this failed to yield results? The only thing here I didn't use was the Calming Cap. And again, keeping a dog under threshold at *all* times in the real world is next to impossible as you cannot control the environment to that extent.

I didn't use punishment with Rupert as his issues were fear based and I felt punishment would make him worse. However, I tried all of the above except the calming cap for years and saw very little improvement. Now maybe he was just too broken to ever be fixed fully and it's a moot point anyway as he's gone now but I'm still curious as to what else would be tried when everything suggested has failed. At what point do you decide a dogs problems are unfixable?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Lexie, Cleo and lexilou..

I think if you are looking for any of the positives only camp to say that there is a point which you move onto negative BMods/corrections, then you won't. 

Until a person can see these dogs in person and try as you all have, then the feeling is always going to be, that you are not doing it properly or not giving it enough time etc

Every dog is different and it is naive to think that all methods will work on every dog. 

For Lexie I advise putting a half check on Dex so that as we approach a dog she can clip it to his lead and therefore has more control over him. I would also use a bottle of stones or some kind of heavy duty spray. (although I am doubtful he will respond when he gets going). Or alternatively a spray collar to snap him out of it. 

The head collar is a tricky one.. Dex doesn't like it and will fight it when he sees another dog. Perhaps working progress. 

My overall opinion on these type if dogs is that time will calm them down. As they mature and the world/other dogs is not so exciting then they will be easier to manage. 

There is also another argument for saying that if you make it absolutely clear that you won't accept this by physically over powering your dog, then would they keep doing it??

Controversial I know...


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> But LfL- up until this post, apart from the calmatives suggestions, no there had been no practical suggestions


I started re-reading this thread, and got as far as page 5. Only 5 pages in (out of 13) I counted 5 separate posts with specific recommendations as well as questions as to how what you had already tried unsuccessfully was applied.



Lexiedhb said:


> what is plan B)?


Plan B for me is to re-visit the application of what has already been tried. I have said this several times now. Often a seemingly insignificant tweak of what you are already doing is all it takes for it to click with the dog. But without watching you and your dog in person, its often hard to see what needs to be changed.

For example, if LAT didnt work, why did it not work? I would have to actually watch you and your dog practicing LAT to be able to offer specific advice.

LexiLou2 just explained her application of one suggestion (the tug toy) and through her description, I can see several potential problems. She could easily come back in 3 weeks, say Ive tried tug as a reward, and it didnt work. And I can see why. Namely that shes trying to accomplish 10 separate things in one training session. Im all for multitasking, but in this case multitasking is not your friend.
Either way, I dont think it would be fair to say that tug as a reward did not work for her dog.



Lexiedhb said:


> I did ALL this with the exceptions of the calming cap and Overalls relaxation protocol.


I understand, you have tried many things, none have worked, you are frustrated. I get that.

You tried a noise interruptor and for your purposes it worked. Now you want to know what others think of the noise interruptor. My reply was that its not practical for me, my dogs, and what I want to accomplish with them.

Which is followed by 10 pages of yeah buts and what ifs. Now I am frustrated as are others. Because when every suggestion is met with a yeah but it begins to feel like you really dont want to hear solutions. You want to hear that the noise interruptor was the right" choice.

Well, guess what? There is no right or wrong in dog training. Theres only you and your dog. You dont need to be asking me or anyone else what we think of the shaker can, you need to be asking your dog. 
Your relationship is with him, not a board of anonymous people on an internet forum. If you are happy with your relationship that is the only answer you need, and YOU are the only one who can answer that.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> And if all this failed to yield results? The only thing here I didn't use was the Calming Cap. And again, keeping a dog under threshold at *all* times in the real world is next to impossible as you cannot control the environment to that extent.
> 
> I didn't use punishment with Rupert as his issues were fear based and I felt punishment would make him worse. However, I tried all of the above except the calming cap for years and saw very little improvement. Now maybe he was just too broken to ever be fixed fully and it's a moot point anyway as he's gone now but I'm still curious as to what else would be tried when everything suggested has failed. At what point do you decide a dogs problems are unfixable?


I have lowered my expectations of Roxy (I don;t mean that in a bad way though!) & although I am still working with her & focussing on training, etc I have accepted her for the dog she is. I think my mistake (initially) was thinking she would be like Toby eventually - she won't be, she's Roxy

We can take Toby anywhere, a stroll to the shops, a village fete, a local dog show, a group walk, to the local pub, etc but I realise that this will probably never happen with Roxy. Again, I haven't given up on her but do accept that she would find all those situations stressful, it may be that in time we could try these things but I doubt it.

I also realise that we can never go away & leave the dogs at home (tbh I wouldn't want to) as she woiuld find a kennel environment too stressful & I would be too worried if the dogs were kept apart that she wouild become anxious but then if they were together then the attcks on Toby may commence again.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> I understand, you have tried many things, none have worked, you are frustrated. I get that.
> 
> You tried a noise interruptor and for your purposes it worked. Now you want to know what others think of the noise interruptor. My reply was that its not practical for me, my dogs, and what I want to accomplish with them.


I'm just reading the thread, but had to go back to the start because you confused me there Ouesi

Too many Lexi...s 

The OP, ie Lexiedhb isn't the Lexi that used the interruptor, that was Cleo and LexiLou2.

So Lexiedhb, who said they hadn't used any aversives yet, but only PR, isn't the one this reply should be aimed at and isn't looking for confirmation that using a rattle can is okay, as they haven't used one. 

... I think...


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

ETA: If 3 owners and 3 dogs on a small, mainly British pet forum have the same problems and the same backgrounds, I would guess that people who train thousands of dogs successfully have come across similar people with similar problems quite a few times and rare is more common than you think. 

Back to watching.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Can I ask a really stupid question. What is the huge issue with a shaker can? Is it the idea that it scares the dog and you are training by fear? As I do use one but Bosley is NOT scared of it (ask Terencesmum) Also look at the thing from where I accidentally dropped it and he picked it up and ran around with it like an idiot.
Would there be an issue if I came on and said I used a squeaky ball as a distraction method, so see another dog and squeak the ball, which to be fair I used to be it didnt hold his attention. I dont shake to bottle violently towards my dog, I sort of rattle it by my side and that noise above anything else I have used makes him turn and go ooohh whats that?
I can see where I went wrong with the tuggy however I would be really interested in knowing how I stop him getting bored of it like he did with the squeaky ball?
Im not necessarily looking for people to agreed with me, however I am finding this thread extremely interesting. Its nice in a strange way to know other people have the same issues as me, and its nice to get different things to try.
I, in all honesty know why LAT did not work, I needed an environment where I could build up distance slowly, the issue was by the time the distance had got smaller he knew the dog so stopped reacting. Also in an every day situation I cant keep the dogs at a distance long enough to keep him calm so he reacts which his another step back.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I started re-reading this thread, and got as far as page 5. Only 5 pages in (out of 13) I counted 5 separate posts with specific recommendations as well as questions as to how what you had already tried unsuccessfully was applied.
> 
> Plan B for me is to re-visit the application of what has already been tried. I have said this several times now. Often a seemingly insignificant tweak of what you are already doing is all it takes for it to click with the dog. But without watching you and your dog in person, its often hard to see what needs to be changed.
> 
> ...


Um no i have not tried a noise interrupter, I asked for opinions of those who may have used one, or those who have not. Maybe what i am looking for is the PR bods to give me something new- not just rehash what i have already tried, and then tell me i am obviously doing it wrong, haven't given it enough time, there is no other way. I haven't ever said "yeah but"- just shared my experience of the methods you are describing, without getting any solid "well did you try it this way?"- "maybe this will work" - which is fine, if you are so stuck in your methods that there is only one way, and you cant possibly advise without seeing the dog- ok.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Elles said:


> I'm just reading the thread, but had to go back to the start because you confused me there Ouesi
> 
> Too many Lexi...s
> 
> ...


LOL, you are right!

I offered my xperience of using this & am happy with this, I'm not looking for any confirmation that this is 'ok' as I believe it is

i think that this is a very common problem for alot of dogs especially those who have missed out on socilisation at a young age. I do think that the severity of the reaction & coping with the afgtermath vary enormously though

At one stage we would have to end our walk after an encounter as Roxy would be so unreponsive that the rest of the walk would be a disater & not enjoyable.

She recovers alot quicker now, which I accept is still progress & shouldn't be ignored but after a year I want more progress than that so have opted for a technique to stop the kick off.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Can I just clarify that if Bosley was scared of a shaker I would not use it. I have in the past 12 months looked at numerous ways of training and I would never use fear to train my dog. At one point I looked at working Bosley to give him something to concentrate of so I started to contact people who had working terriers.
I got told for 2 or 3 people I had to break his spirit, I had to destroy him as he was and start to rebuild, I had to give him a really good whack, I had to make him submit to mesurprisingly I did none of those and dropped that idea.
One of the trainers told me I needed to focus his energy into something, had I tried agility. I went to three different agility clubs and was told by all that until he was less excitable and more under control than they couldnt work with him as he could represent a danger to himself and the other dogs at the club.
It is so hard as he is a dog with SO much potential his focus is unreal in a non dog environment but we are making no progress where dogs are concerned. 
I also agree with Cleo that his recovery rate is better, seeing another dog used to ruin a walk however we can now continue a walk admittedly I have to walk a good 5 or 6 paces behind Lexi to stop him taking it out on her for 5 mins or so but he does calm down so progress is being made, I also havent cried in a couple of months where as tears were an almost weekly thing so he is making progress.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Personally, from these threads asking for plan Bs, I think the plan B is to look at why the methods you were trying weren't working. This is a lot harder than it sounds, however, and so I think outside help would be needed to observe etc.



Cleo38 said:


> One thing I really would like explained more though is the LAT game as we were fine again at a distance but we could never pass a certain point. If I waited for Roxy to return her gaze to me then I had a long wait & by that time she would be hyoper & stressed.


Simply, I would say you were decreasing distance too quickly. However long you had been practising the exercises are, often, irrelevant, as the dog was obviously not ready to move closer. It is at this point you have to decide if the methods aren't working because of something you are doing, something to do with Roxy specifically that means the methods are not best applied to her. I would argue for the first instance- no offense intended!! These methods are not easy and take a lot of practise, it's a constant learning curve for everyone with each new dog.



Cleo38 said:


> LOL, see with Roxy she has to have something in her mouth as a calming aid. When she gets excited the first thing she does is look round for something to shove in her mouth. If she can't find a toy then it will be a tea towel or a shoe!
> 
> I sometimes think that I should let her carry this at all times but then if she does meet a dog & it looked at her toy then what ?  Then the resource guarding may come out ....


This is also a common traits I see in dogs who like to use their mouths, e.g. a lot of bull breeds, GSDs...most guarding breeds to be fair (overgeneralising probably). By grabbing something, they are using innate motor patterns (grab bites, kill bites etc.) that have been selected for, and thus the behaviour is self-rewarding and self-calming.



LexiLou2 said:


> Can I ask a really stupid question. What is the huge issue with a shaker can? Is it the idea that it scares the dog and you are training by fear?


Most dogs develop a classically conditioned startle response to the shaker cans (or any noise interruptor) which, for a lot of dogs, make them much more flighty and their body language becomes increasingly more anxious in the contexts. However, if your dog is interested in the shaker can, I would say be careful it doesn't go the way of the squeaky toy! In other words, he may get habituated to it, if he doesn't get rewarded heavily for his attention.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

To make these threads a bit more informative, here's some vids that you may or may not have seen before. It may be worth looking at them, as you could maybe gain some additional ideas or have some motivation to look at the methods you were using before:

Training &#39;Look at That&#39; Game -teaching dogs to focus from Control Unleashed - YouTube (LAT game, taught and demonstrated by a great trainer, but with a non-reactive dog [I'm assuming]).

Control unleashed works!!! One year into training with Chili - YouTube (The results of a year's training with CU games on a severely reactive dog- read the blurb and see her other vids. The girl in the vid is the moderator of the Dog Forum, which is also a great place!)

Control Unleashed in the Real World - YouTube (showing CU and LAT in the real world, with real problems, with real mistakes and a real self-evaluation!)

CU Game - Off Switch - YouTube (and this video is just so cute!! )


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Personally, from these threads asking for plan Bs, I think the plan B is to look at why the methods you were trying weren't working. This is a lot harder than it sounds, however, and so I think outside help would be needed to observe etc.
> 
> Simply, I would say you were decreasing distance too quickly. However long you had been practising the exercises are, often, irrelevant, as the dog was obviously not ready to move closer. *It is at this point you have to decide if the methods aren't working because of something you are doing, something to do with Roxy specifically that means the methods are not best applied to her. I would argue for the first instance- no offense intended!! These methods are not easy and take a lot of practise, it's a constant learning curve for everyone with each new dog*.
> 
> ...


Oh I completely agree with you. I have always asked trainers to be blunt with me & really wouldn't take offense if (& when!) they point out everything I'm doing wrong.

I do also believe that Roxy may have made more progress with another, more competent owner. As I have said before, being honest she should not have been rehomed with me as I am an inexperienced dog owner.

I can undersatnd how difficult it is to make further suggestions, especially if it's a mere tweak to a technique or soemthing really small tyhat could help. Obviously observing these things fiorst hand is the only way to make a true judgement, that's why we all have requested outside help.

The noise interrupter is still something I will use as a very infrequent training aid, all our other training is (mainly) PR based & I am open minded & still consider other suggestions (will watch the clips in min)


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

Can I ask how good your dogs are generally in controlling their frustrations? Do you get a good response to the 'leave that' command and can you walk them past food on the floor, toys on the floor, a person sitting on the floor? How good are they at sitting and waiting at an open door, house or car, before they are allowed out? The list is endless really. 
I spend a huge amount of time teaching my dogs self control and to deal with their frustrations, little or large, and keep calm and carry on. It is not always easy, but if you manage to teach them that they can't always get what they want around the smaller things in their lives then you are a step closer to teaching them the same self control around the major issues (strange dogs, people, whatever).


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

spaniel04 said:


> Can I ask how good your dogs are generally in controlling their frustrations? Do you get a good response to the 'leave that' command and can you walk them past food on the floor, toys on the floor, a person sitting on the floor? How good are they at sitting and waiting at an open door, house or car, before they are allowed out? The list is endless really.
> I spend a huge amount of time teaching my dogs self control and to deal with their frustrations, little or large, and keep calm and carry on. It is not always easy, but if you manage to teach them that they can't always get what they want around the smaller things in their lives then you are a step closer to teaching them the same self control around the major issues (strange dogs, people, whatever).


See this is what I find strange, although someone will probably be able to tell me why, but Roxy is fantastic at 'leave' & 'wait' (mainly!)

She can easily leave her dinner & walk past it, squeaky balls (her fave), she will wait at gates now whilst I go past (a bit more difficult for her as she ALWAYS wants to be the one in front!), she ignores the cats & the chickens when they run past. We do practise this at home mainly but also outside.

She can have bits of sausage balanced on her paws & will eat them when told (Toby my other dog finds anything involving leaving food incredibly diffficult!)

One of her fave games is to bring us a toy, we then trhough it & either tell her to leave it immediately or just when she has nearly reached the toy. Then she can be told to 'sit'or 'down' for a while before 'get it' . She sort of taught herself that game & seems to really like it 

I do think that maybe she does her problems in this area. She can get very demanding of Toby our other dog & is quite a pushy dog in general. However, when we do walk with my friends dogs shehas been 'told off' by one of them several times & she takes it.

I did like the clip of hyoping the dog up then brin ging them down again which is sort of what we do when we play at home so this may be something to practise more of but I'm not sure of how this tranfer when out.

I would still be very interested though to see any clips where someone shows how to calm down a big dog that is seriously over threashold . The small dog in one of the clips (LAT game) did have couple of barks but not a proper kick off. I would really like to see how best to manage this situiation as this is the one that I would find most beneficial at the moment


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

spaniel04 said:


> Can I ask how good your dogs are generally in controlling their frustrations? Do you get a good response to the 'leave that' command and can you walk them past food on the floor, toys on the floor, a person sitting on the floor? How good are they at sitting and waiting at an open door, house or car, before they are allowed out? The list is endless really.
> I spend a huge amount of time teaching my dogs self control and to deal with their frustrations, little or large, and keep calm and carry on. It is not always easy, but if you manage to teach them that they can't always get what they want around the smaller things in their lives then you are a step closer to teaching them the same self control around the major issues (strange dogs, people, whatever).


He will leave food (on his paws- the floor, right under his nose), a ball, a tug toy, pretty much anything i tell him to. He will sit with his dinner on the floor until i tell him he can have it, He will wait for me to go through doors first, to get in and out of the car. He has a sit stay in the garden of 10 mins, working now on doing it with me out of sight- currently up to 3 mins.

All these things very possible- unless there is a dog around.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> so if I persevere with the tuggy how do I stop it becoming boring? Also how do I eventually wean him off it, I dont want a dog growling and tugging on a tug toy every time he has to walk past a dog


I just wanted to pick up this point, as I don't quite understand the logic. 

When I take my now 13 months old dog for a walk, I have with me..

One tug toy
One ball on a rope
One squeaky toy (ball or soft kong)
One rubber bouncy ball
Small square of hard cheese, for nail sized portion treat rewards
Small plastic bag of cooked ham, chicken or liver cake
Poo bags
Lead
One mobile phone
My full undivided attention

I bought a coat and a body warmer with large pockets lol.

I don't have any problems at all with my girl, she's a border collie who likes nothing more than to interact with me in some way. Though she does say hello to other people and play with other dogs when appropriate and is friendly, cheerful and well-adjusted, I arm myself to teeth with dog training accessories. :lol:

So what's wrong with carrying a tuggie and using fun tuggie games to distract your dog for the rest of their life if you need to and maybe swapping toys/treats to keep the interest up?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Elles said:


> I just wanted to pick up this point, as I don't quite understand the logic.
> 
> When I take my now 13 months old dog for a walk, I have with me..
> 
> ...


LOL, I have so many things to take out now as well!!

I can see that at times, having to play tug to get past another dog is simply inconvenient & not possible to have to do all the time.

I've got a bad back at the moment so having to take Roxy out & play tug with her is simply not possible as I physically can't. To have to rely on something like a tug toy to get past other dogs would mean that I would not be able to walk her just in case - doesn't seem fair on her.

I also think that there is a bit of people perception regarding the breed of dog (I know this shouldn;t be a factor but it is!) a big, growling GSD, rottie or god forbid a staff , always seems to alarm people far more than lab or a poodle. So you may find that even though the dog is playing with a tug toy may still be alarming to some people.

I also don't want Roxy hyped up like that when she's around other dogs as this is when (I feel) that the excitement could over spill in to aggression (& has on several occassions). If she was already hyped up by the toy then saw the dog the excitement coupled with frustration is heightened - then this is a worse combination imo.

I recognise that the idea is to distract from the dog but this is the problem that we have at the moment in that she isn't!


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

spaniel04 said:


> Can I ask how good your dogs are generally in controlling their frustrations? Do you get a good response to the 'leave that' command and can you walk them past food on the floor, toys on the floor, a person sitting on the floor? How good are they at sitting and waiting at an open door, house or car, before they are allowed out? The list is endless really.
> I spend a huge amount of time teaching my dogs self control and to deal with their frustrations, little or large, and keep calm and carry on. It is not always easy, but if you manage to teach them that they can't always get what they want around the smaller things in their lives then you are a step closer to teaching them the same self control around the major issues (strange dogs, people, whatever).


Really good, he will leave and drop anything in the home and garden, he will leave his tea and I am able to leave the room and come back in without him touching it, his stay is amazing, his greeting of people that come in the house when on his own is brilliant, when Lexi is round she gets more hyped up by new people which results in Bosley having a go at her, I am working on this in calming Lexi down when new people come and she is improving which is turn is improving him. They will both wait at an open door, gate, roadside with the command 'wait' however bring another dog into the situation and I have no chance. Infact the only command I struggle with for Bosley to not do instantly is 'tricks' like roll over any practical command he learns extremely quickly and is very consistant. He knows he can't get everything he wants as sharing has become very important in our house, he knows that if Lexi picks a toy up regardless of if he wants it he is not allowed it, he lso knows the command Lexis turn which means whatever I am doing with them it is purely Lexis go, Lexi in turn knows the command Bosleys turn.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Elles said:


> I just wanted to pick up this point, as I don't quite understand the logic.
> 
> When I take my now 13 months old dog for a walk, I have with me..
> 
> ...


The issue is I have two dogs and I would at some point in their life like to be able to walk them together which at the minute I can't it takes two of us to take them out as you can't control Bosley when he kicks off if you have Lei as well as you need about 4 arms. I did once try it and I have a very submissive staffie who like to lay down and greet a dog and let it come to her, where as Bos has to bounce around like a loon barking and growling. The once I took them out together and this kicked off I ended up in bed for 2 days as I pulled all my back. If i have to play tuggy with Bos every time we walk past a dog forever I will never ever be able to walk both my dogs on my own.
As it stands at the minute in my coat I have a tuggy, a sqeuaky ball, treats, poo bags, phone, leads, shaker bottle for extreme cicumstance.
I got Bosley to enrich Lexis life and was 'sold' a dog friendly people friendly dog by the rescue I don't want it to get to the point where I have to walk my dogs seperately.
Plus Bosley is knee high just below so I have to bend over to play tuggy, we tend to see between 3 and maybe 9 other dogs on a walk, that is a lot of tuggy for my poor back!!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

So the positive training methods aren't working, because of human circumstance, health and situation, not because of the individual problem dogs. 



> Plus Bosley is knee high just below so I have to bend over to play tuggy, we tend to see between 3 and maybe 9 other dogs on a walk, that is a lot of tuggy for my poor back!!


Might I suggest:

LionHeart High Quality Double Gel Knee Pads: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

Then you can kneel down and save your back. Whatever it takes. :lol:


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I would happily play Tug (or ANYTHING for that matter)with dex for the rest of his life when he saw another dog- sadly- NOT interested in that scenario


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I don't know if the tuggy will work I only started using that methos yesterday the issue I have is its ok kneeling down to play tuggy but you are walking down pavement and a dog is walking towards you, this is the situation that gets the worse reaction from Bosley. On a field enviroment I pop him back on lead and will walk towards a dog and walk wide, I know his 'reaction' range and on field I am working on slowly reducing this, however on our evening walk about 25 mins is on lead on pavement and about half on this there is only pavement on one side of the road otherwise I cross, so wlaking towards another dog on pavement and I do not have the option to cross, I can not get down on my knees to play tuggy as I block the whole pavement, it also means stopping moving forward, and the minute you stop is the moment his reaction goes completely OTT he just totally looses the plot so you can't stop you have to keep moving forwards. Not only that bearing in mind he got possessive over his tuggy with Lexi yesterday, if I am playing with his tuggy and a dog has to walk by at close quarters what do i do if he rects to that dog in the same manner, as that WAS aggression not excitment. 
I'm not saying I aren't going to use the tuggy, I am, I am going to try and use it moving forward and see how we go, that said I would like to know if in using a distraction method it is possible to wean dog off it or if that is it for life, as an at least 10 year commitment to a dog I have to play tuggy with every time I want to go out and the thought of never being able to walk my two together is quite depressing really.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2012)

LexiLou2 said:


> Can I ask a really stupid question. What is the huge issue with a shaker can?


Its not a huge issue. It just doesn't suit me and what my goals are with my dogs. I ask a lot of them in the sense of dealing with a lot of commotion and noise, and I don't want to encourage them EVER to startle at anything. I have no issue with aversives. I just don't present them to the dog as something to be avoided, rather simply another distraction to ignore.



Lexiedhb said:


> Um no i have not tried a noise interrupter, I asked for opinions of those who may have used one, or those who have not. Maybe what i am looking for is the PR bods to give me something new- not just rehash what i have already tried, and then tell me i am obviously doing it wrong, haven't given it enough time, there is no other way.


Sorry, yes, too many Lexies on this thread. 
But again, you insist on making this about "right" and "wrong", its not. I have not once said "you're doing it WRONG." YOU are the one saying what you are doing isn't working. 
Again, its not about right and wrong. Its about you and your dog. What works for you both, what suits your unique situation, and what achieves the goals you have.



Lexiedhb said:


> I haven't ever said "yeah but"- just shared my experience of the methods you are describing, without getting any solid "well did you try it this way?"- "maybe this will work" - which is fine, *if you are so stuck in your methods that there is only one way*, and you cant possibly advise without seeing the dog- ok.


Veiled insults aside, you HAVE gotten "did you try it this way" advice. My posts obviously offend you, read rottiefan's, hers are much more clear anyway. In fact I think I'm just going to let her take over as I'm getting quite frustrated with this conversation and she says what I'm trying to far better anyway. 

As for how good the "leave it" is... Have you tried "leave it" with food and toys that MOVE? There is a huge difference to the dog between leaving a distraction that is imobile on his paws and leaving food that say is tossed by him - ie: put the dog in a down stay and roll a piece of cheese in front of him. Right up to him. Toss food at him. Bounce a squeaky ball all around him. Play with another dog with the squeaky ball while asking him to maintain a down stay. Reward at a high rate for every minor success.

This is the idea behind exercises like "go crazy freeze". How crazy can you get? Teach the dog that he *can* control himself no matter how crazy you get, how crazy he gets. Really amp him up and then ask for the default freeze behavior (sit or down etc.)


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Its not a huge issue. It just doesn't suit me and what my goals are with my dogs. I ask a lot of them in the sense of dealing with a lot of commotion and noise, and I don't want to encourage them EVER to startle at anything. I have no issue with aversives. I just don't present them to the dog as something to be avoided, rather simply another distraction to ignore.
> 
> Sorry, yes, too many Lexies on this thread.
> But again, you insist on making this about "right" and "wrong", its not. I have not once said "you're doing it WRONG." YOU are the one saying what you are doing isn't working.
> ...


I must be missing all the have you tried this and that (with regards to differing methods), until your last post.

No this is not something I have tried, so now can- thank you.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Elles said:


> *So the positive training methods aren't working, because of human circumstance, health and situation, not because of the individual problem dogs*.
> 
> Might I suggest:
> 
> ...


Um, not really. As I said why I don't want to get Roxy hyped up with a particular toy to the extent that this, coupled with frustration of another dog would be too much ..... & she's not interested in tuggy toys that much.

Our dogs are walked by us; no one else so yes our physical situations, environments & circumstances have to always be a factor in managing our dogs.

If I could guarantee that I would never meet another dog then Roxy's reactivity wouldn't be a problem but I will meet other dogs.

As I have said many times we have tried many of the suggestions with no real progress. As Rottiefan did point out that there is no timescale, there is no real definitve point that you can say this will be 'cured'. But, for me I want things to progress quicker - rightly or wrongly & I believe the best way for my dog to progress is to end her OTT behaviour before is escalates using a noise aversion.

Lack of progeress using purely PR can be a factor of many things & as I have said (again many times) that I accept that someone with more experience may have made more progress with Roxy than I have but I haven't got that person with me, I don't have someone working with me every day so if the techniques have failed & I am also a factor (which I don't believe is the only cause) then I still want to try something else because it is me who walks my dog every day & no one else.

I do find it strange though that since I did introduce more of the 'punishing' the bad as well as rewarding the good (& by that I mean using the word 'No' loudly - not anything more sinister!!, stopping the OTT behaviour we have made more progress & can attend 'normal' introductiory training classes.

Even better I have just received a letter inviting us to move up to the next level in a few weeks time


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Elles said:


> So the positive training methods aren't working, because of human circumstance, health and situation, not because of the individual problem dogs.


Um no. I do not have any health or situational issues, and im not entirely sure what you mean by "human circumstance"........ but each and every dog has to live with the situation you put it in i guess- maybe we should all just rehome.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2012)

Rottiefan said:


> Personally, from these threads asking for plan Bs, I think the plan B is to look at why the methods you were trying weren't working. This is a lot harder than it sounds, however, and so I think outside help would be needed to observe etc.


I admit I am reactive to the term "Plan B"  It is one of MY triggers LOL.
For one, stateside, there is a very obnoxious article called "Plan B, Kill the dog" by a very vocally anti-PR trainer. So there goes my blood pressure for one.

My other issue with the "plan B" question is... Plan B is me. People like me (most who do far more than I do) are the ones who end up with the dogs that no one else wanted to deal with. 
We have Biko because no one else wanted to deal with a sick 4 week old puppy found next to his dead littermates under a mobile home. Biko at 15 is still a fearful and neurotic dog. He does things like walk backwards on laminate floors unless someone stands next to him. 
We have Lunar because no one else wanted an elderly, sick dane who climbed up the assess-a-hand and tried to eat the person holding it.
We have Bates because his previous home couldn't deal with his penchant for killing things and was getting tired of the vet bills he kept incurring chasing their horses. 
We have Breez because her "breeder" unloaded her last two puppies on the local rescue - hers were probably the best circumstances, but she does have some issues related to poor temperament and zero early socialization.

I would LOVE to raise a puppy from scratch from a good breeder!! Holy cow that would be awesome. But I don't have those dogs. I have the dogs I do and I trust that it is somehow meant to be. I'm not going to sit here and cry about the dogs I have and how difficult they are. Instead we fix what we can and figure out how to live with the rest.



Rottiefan said:


> Simply, I would say you were decreasing distance too quickly. However long you had been practising the exercises are, often, irrelevant, as the dog was obviously not ready to move closer. It is at this point you have to decide if the methods aren't working because of something you are doing, something to do with Roxy specifically that means the methods are not best applied to her. I would argue for the first instance- no offense intended!! These methods are not easy and take a lot of practise, it's a constant learning curve for everyone with each new dog.


So very true... Thes methods aren't easy and the learning curve is steep and follows a different path for each and every dog. You have to cater the method to each individual dog. A lot of keen observation skills, lots of creativity, patience and trust. It is SO helpful to have a separate set of eyes (who is not as emotionally involved as you) and who will encourage you that you are indeed doing the right thing. I am incredibly fortunate that I have that kind of support system. I know I would not have achieved what I have with my guys without it.



Rottiefan said:


> This is also a common traits I see in dogs who like to use their mouths, e.g. a lot of bull breeds, GSDs...most guarding breeds to be fair (overgeneralising probably). By grabbing something, they are using innate motor patterns (grab bites, kill bites etc.) that have been selected for, and thus the behaviour is self-rewarding and self-calming.


 Yep, very true again. We have 2 dogs who do best with something in their mouth. I always figure if there is a stuffy in there it sure beats it being my arm in there 



Rottiefan said:


> Most dogs develop a classically conditioned startle response to the shaker cans (or any noise interruptor) which, for a lot of dogs, *make them much more flighty *and their body language becomes increasingly more anxious in the contexts. However, if your dog is interested in the shaker can, I would say be careful it doesn't go the way of the squeaky toy! In other words, he may get habituated to it, if he doesn't get rewarded heavily for his attention.


And this is exactly why I don't use aversives to modify behavior. I don't avoid aversives, but I don't use them with the purpose of teaching the dog to escape or avoid them.

Thank you Rottiefan for your posts


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

ouesi said:


> As for how good the "leave it" is... Have you tried "leave it" with food and toys that MOVE? There is a huge difference to the dog between leaving a distraction that is imobile on his paws and leaving food that say is tossed by him - ie: put the dog in a down stay and roll a piece of cheese in front of him. Right up to him. Toss food at him. Bounce a squeaky ball all around him. Play with another dog with the squeaky ball while asking him to maintain a down stay. Reward at a high rate for every minor success.
> 
> This is the idea behind exercises like "go crazy freeze". How crazy can you get? Teach the dog that he *can* control himself no matter how crazy you get, how crazy he gets. Really amp him up and then ask for the default freeze behavior (sit or down etc.)


This is a very good point. 'Leave that' around non moving objects is fairly easy but once my dogs can do that I quickly move to much more challenging stuff. Don't forget my dogs have to keep their cool and not loose it when they are in full hunting mode and faced with an army of pheasants. So I use rugby ball shaped dummies that bounce and roll all over the place, rabbit fur tennis balls that I roll past them, when they are sitting and also when they are hunting, I use a contraption called a 'bolting rabbit' which simulates exactly that, a rabbit bolting at very high speed right past their noses. They also have to exercise huge self control by just sitting and watching another dog going for a retrieve. For dogs who live and die for retrieving that is not an easy thing to do, but it has to become second nature to them. 
I know your dogs are not gundogs, but you get the idea, it was that sort of level of self control I was asking about in my previous post.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

spaniel04 said:


> This is a very good point. 'Leave that' around non moving objects is fairly easy but once my dogs can do that I quickly move to much more challenging stuff. Don't forget my dogs have to keep their cool and not loose it when they are in full hunting mode and faced with an army of pheasants. So I use rugby ball shaped dummies that bounce and roll all over the place, rabbit fur tennis balls that I roll past them, when they are sitting and also when they are hunting, I use a contraption called a 'bolting rabbit' which simulates exactly that, a rabbit bolting at very high speed right past their noses. They also have to exercise huge self control by just sitting and watching another dog going for a retrieve. For dogs who live and die for retrieving that is not an easy thing to do, but it has to become second nature to them.
> I know your dogs are not gundogs, but you get the idea, it was that sort of level of self control I was asking about in my previous post.


Definitely! This is what we practise & are building on espcecially as Roxy is a chaser & we have alot of wildlife where we are.

I started off with stationary tennis balls then rolling them, then throwing them, then using the ball thrower. We are not 100% by any means when she is exicited & I am using the ball thrower but this is what we work towards obviously. We do this when in the garden & out on walks.

As we live & walk along rivers there are plenty of birds around & at times she chases which I can recall her from. I think I said in a previous post tha she walked to heel (offlead) past 6 moor hens who were flapping around despite REALLY wanting to chase them. There is no way I could have managed that near hares or rabbits though 

I'm also practising recalling her mid chase or redirecting her to chase another ball, my fear of her running off chasing deer keeps me awake some nights!

We've got a couple of the gun dog training manuals that we are currently using as I & the dogs both enjoy the exercises in them (grades 2 &3). I want to get her reactivity (amongst other things) under control so we could attend gun dog classes - we had 1-2-1'a with a trainer last year & he thought she would really enjoy the training

Out of interest what is your 'bolting rabbit' contraption? I made a toy last year with a load of old phesant feather sewed in to a sock then pulled round the garden using a fishing rod to simulate a running animal (type thing!). My OH went mad though when I left one of his rods out & then trod on it - oops!


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

This is a bolting rabbit Rabbit Skin Training Dummies & Bolting Rabbit - Bolting Rabbit - Rabbit Skin Dummy - Sporting Saint

It is pretty lethal! The rabbit fur dummy is attached to a bungee tape which is stretched across the path the dog is running on. It can be released by pulling a cord from a distance and the dummy sort of whizzes past the approaching dog. I use it either as a distraction when the dog is coming back from a retrieve or I use it whilst I am quartering my dog to simulate a flush to which the dog has to sit instantly and watch the 'rabbit' bolt past.:biggrin5:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

spaniel04 said:


> This is a bolting rabbit Rabbit Skin Training Dummies & Bolting Rabbit - Bolting Rabbit - Rabbit Skin Dummy - Sporting Saint
> 
> It is pretty lethal! The rabbit fur dummy is attached to a bungee tape which is stretched across the path the dog is running on. It can be released by pulling a cord from a distance and the dummy sort of whizzes past the approaching dog. I use it either as a distraction when the dog is coming back from a retrieve or I use it whilst I am quartering my dog to simulate a flush to which the dog has to sit instantly and watch the 'rabbit' bolt past.:biggrin5:


Thanks so much for that link - that is EXACTLY what I have been thinking of getting. I wasn't sure they existed but thought there would be something similar.

How did you start using this? I wouldn't want to start by setting expectations too high.

Honestly I love wildlife or used to; I loved seeing the pheasants, the hares, the deer but now I seem to be scanning the area looking for the bloody things as I don't want Roxy chasing.

Tbh, a successful recall (which I know is all a part of overall obedience, learning restraint, etc) is the most important thing to me, even more than the reactivity although I realise that it's all linked!!

What I want to build uop top is whilstle stops to moving objects, we can do this as part of our walks & if the dogs are moving around but I know it will take time


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> And this is exactly why I don't use aversives to modify behavior. I don't avoid aversives, but I don't use them with the purpose of teaching the dog to escape or avoid them.
> QUOTE]
> 
> What do you use em for Ouesi?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Aww sorry guys. I was just kidding, I don't really expect you to buy knee pads and roll about in the high street playing tuggie. 

(just got home, so only just read the replies  )


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Elles said:


> Aww sorry guys. I was just kidding, I don't really expect you to buy knee pads and roll about in the high street playing tuggie.
> 
> (just got home, so only just read the replies  )


LOL, I look mental enough as it is when we are out; hiding from the dogs, making myself 'interesting' so they turn to look at me, running away form them, making loud noises & waving my arms to scare a deer I have spotted in the distance .....


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Elles said:


> Aww sorry guys. I was just kidding, I don't really expect you to buy knee pads and roll about in the high street playing tuggie.
> 
> (just got home, so only just read the replies  )


The sad thing is I'd have bloody done it if I'd thought it would have helped with Rupert


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> ouesi said:
> 
> 
> > And this is exactly why I don't use aversives to modify behavior. I don't avoid aversives, but I don't use them with the purpose of teaching the dog to escape or avoid them.
> ...


I don't deliberately use them for anything really. I just don't actively avoid them as some PR trainers would have you do. I don't mind my dogs getting stressed or having to face something they don't like. For example I will use pressure and/or frutration to build drive and better the dog's performance. The pressure is technically aversive, but I teach the dog to push through it, rather than back down from it. 
Where some will say to the dog "I see you're stressed, we'll stop now", I say to the dog "I see you're stressed, I'm going to help you overcome this."


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> The only thing here I didn't use was the Calming Cap.


than i'd ADD that - not quit the other things, but ADD the Cap, *assuming* that part of the 
trigger is visual: if the dog goes bonkers at the sight of other dogs, & fixates, staring at other dogs, 
then it seems obvious that part of the trigger is the visual stim of other dogs. 


Sarah1983 said:


> ...keeping a dog under threshold at *all* times in the real world is next to impossible,
> as you cannot control the environment to that extent.


the goal is to AIM for under-threshold as much as possible, & when that fails, 
_*get the dog out of the area as quickly as possible.*_

which is why any trainer will teach a happy, brisk "emergency U-Turn" while *away from* 
the triggering stimulus or circs - when the dog is relaxed & calm, teach the U-turn as a fun game. 
get it fluent, then put it on cue, make it snappy & happy.

Then put it into use As Soon As the dog starts to react, when a sudden event catches U off-guard... 
BEFORE the dog is in a full-blown panic or melt-down, get outta Dodge as quickly as possible, 
re-group & go on. 


Sarah1983 said:


> At what point do you decide a dog's problems are unfixable?


if U are asking this as a serious question, i'll dignify it with a serious answer: 
When the dog is dead, or the impossible-to-fix behaviors are life-threatening to the dog, 
or highly dangerous to other animals or to people. Otherwise, so long as the dog is alive, 
& the behaviors aren't an imminent threat to anyone's life or limb, there's no reason to quit.

i say this having seen PET-OWNERS rehab their own dogs, who had multiple bite histories - 
with some help from a reward-based trainer who had B-Mod experience, a good book, & videos 
to demonstrate some handling & management, as well as training, techniques. 
so yes: *serious problem behaviors can be tackled successfully, by dedicated pet-owners - 
with minimal help & at minimal cost; it takes time & work, but it's been done.*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> The headcollar is a tricky one. *Dex doesn't like it...*


if he doesn't "like" the headcollar, there are several possible reasons:

- it was never properly habituated & positively-associated: 
he should gladly SHOVE HIS OWN FACE INTO IT, the handler only buckles it on.

- the gear on it is his standard leash, & it's too heavy for use with a headcollar. 
Double-thick nylon leashes, bull-snaps, heavy-duty hardware, etc, are not needed with a headcollar; 
they are overkill, & the dog fusses NOT at the headcollar, but at the weight on their face.

- it's not been properly fitted: 
the neck-strap AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE, close to the ears, & SNUG: not sliding down. 
*No fingers* should fit between the neck-strap & the dog's neck; think of a watchband. 
the nose-loop is adjusted *after* the neck-strap, & slides down only far-enuf so that 
the lower edge of the nose-loop approaches the UPPER-edge of the dog's nose leather: 
where hair meets bare skin. That prevents the dog thumbing it off over their face, while also 
giving the dog a wide patent-airway & they can pant freely; a Golden or GSD in a properly-fitted 
headcollar should be able to pick up a tennis-ball.

* one of those 3 should address the "don't like it" issue.

If need be, re-introduce it & teach him to SHOVE HIS OWN HEAD INTO THE LOOP happily, 
just as soon as he sees it; during the re-training, use a front-clip H-harness to manage him, 
NOT the headcollar - it can still be worn, but no leash is clipped to it, & the ring is tied to the halter 
so that he cannot get the down-hanging loop into his -*mouth*- & snip it off... which takes 30-secs 
of inattention. Use a rubber-band to secure the nose-loop / ring to the underside of the headcollar, out of reach.



goodvic2 said:


> Dex doesn't like [the headcollar], & *will fight it when he sees another do**g.*


*If he fights the headcollar around other dogs, the handler KEEPS HIM THERE too long: 
Get outta Dodge. Stop flooding the dog; U-Turn or swing wide or cross the street or _____ . 
Go, leave -  immediately. *


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

That the issue I have is getting out of a situation, I'm walking down a pavement on a busy road with only one pavement and there is a dog coming towards us if I U turn Bos just reacts behind and then I'm stuck in a situation where I can't get away from the dog short of running away but even then they are still following us.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> ...I'm walking down a pavement on a busy road with only one pavement & there's a dog coming toward us;
> if I U-turn, Bos just reacts [to the dog, now] behind [us], &... I'm stuck in a situation where I can't get away
> from the dog, short of running away... even then, they're still following us.


 go up a driveway.

cut behind a tall shrub, or follow a hedge.

get a parked car between U & the other dog-team.

REVERSE TO THE LAST CROSS-STREET & go a short distance away from the intersection; 
see where the other dog-team goes - continue after they've passed by, or choose another route.

etc - 
The above BTW qualifies as a, _"yes, but..."_, post.  Think of something, *any*thing, 
that either BLOCKS the visual, ADDS distance, or gets U two OUT of the vicinity.

i've been known to hoist a reactive dog into the open bed of a pick-up truck along the street, 
tell her / him to DOWN, & reward the drop [down/stay] while another dog & owner walked past. 
i've also cheated & held the leash flat to the floor, so s/he couldn't get up & peek, LOL. 
Desperate times & desperate measures.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Ok fair point, its a hard one as its a country type lane so no driveways parked cars etc as that is my normal tact.
At what point do you do the U turn? I normally do it at the point that he starts to react, should I be turning before this or at this point?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

In Yorkshire you have pavements on your country lanes? 

In Devon you just have to jump into the hedge. 

Actually, I suppose if there were no pavements on the country lanes, you and any approaching dogs would be on opposite sides of the road, so it might be better in some respects.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> than i'd ADD that - not quit the other things, but ADD the Cap, *assuming* that part of the
> trigger is visual: if the dog goes bonkers at the sight of other dogs, & fixates, staring at other dogs,
> then it seems obvious that part of the trigger is the visual stim of other dogs.


Rupert didn't need to see another dog to react to it. The sound of a dog barking in the distance or in a house or the jingle of keys or tags were enough to send him way over threshold. I tried desensitizing him to them but with no success. Possibly because the sounds did sometimes indicate a dog nearby?



> the goal is to AIM for under-threshold as much as possible, & when that fails,
> _*get the dog out of the area as quickly as possible.*_
> 
> which is why any trainer will teach a happy, brisk "emergency U-Turn" while *away from*
> ...


Oh we tried for under threshold as much as possible. The problem was that as soon as we stepped out the front door it was like a switch was flicked. Rupert would go from chilled out to highly anxious immediately. I did a lot of work on opening and closing the door, stepping out and straight back in and we made a ton of progress until one day I opened the door and we were attacked by a dog. It didn't actually reach him as I slammed the door in its face but it attacked the door and after that no amount of work convinced him he was safe.

As for the U turn, well that was fine until he'd seen a dog or what _might_ be a dog. Then he dropped to his belly and fixated no matter how upbeat I was or how much we'd practised it without other dogs in sight.



> if U are asking this as a serious question, i'll dignify it with a serious answer:
> When the dog is dead, or the impossible-to-fix behaviors are life-threatening to the dog,
> or highly dangerous to other animals or to people. Otherwise, so long as the dog is alive,
> & the behaviors aren't an imminent threat to anyone's life or limb, there's no reason to quit.


Yes it was a serious question, why would it not be?  I spent 8 years trying to rehab Rupert. He came to me with an enormous amount of baggage, spent months living under my bed (something he reverted to if I were ever away) and with a fear of literally everything you can think of. He was so fearful I considered putting him to sleep. I worked my ass off with that dog and he overcame so many of his problems it was unbelievable. Rupert is why I made the change from training with choke chains and force to clicker training. For months I couldn't even _speak_ to him without him wetting himself and going into meltdown. The only thing I know of his background is that he was a sheep worrier.

However, he was always a danger to other animals. He had absolutely no bite inhibition, if another dog approached him he went in for the kill, not to warn. He did not growl, bark or give any clear sign to most people that he was aggressive. He went from freeze to maim in an instant. This was the thing I never got anywhere with in 8 years despite everything I tried. He was reactive at a HUGE distance too. Across the street was nowhere near far enough for him not to react. Distracting him was impossible. Block his view with a car or a wall and he became absolutely frenzied. It took him hours to calm down after merely seeing another dog a great distance away too.

I lost Rupert to kidney failure in December so obviously I can't try anything now. I'm just curious as to where the people here would decide that a problem can't be fixed. Lack of time, money or effort was not an issue here, I wouldn't have gotten as far as I did with him if I hadn't been prepared to work at it.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

That is so sad Sarah, poor, poor boy. :crying:

I would be broken hearted if my girl wet herself when I spoke to her and was terrified of key noises etc. That you almost got him confident with going out of the door, only to be attacked must have been devastating for all of you. 

Really, really sad. I don't think I'd have been able to work as hard as you did. I'd probably have given up and kept him indoors, probably making his life even worse.


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## pierre (Mar 23, 2012)

Sarah, thats quite a sad story with a even sadder ending, you have my sympathy, i think all dogs are different and the training of our pets should reflect this, dogs are individuals and should be treated as such but what can be done when problems persist? seek advice from the pro's perhaps, i did although my cherie's inability to learn was no where as serious as your Ruperts was, however i searched the net for a solution and came accross this website, from which i got some good advice and direction, i know it is a bit late for you now but it may help other people with similar probs.

Dog Training Secrets

pierre


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Bosley is no where near as bad as rupert but for a dog that came to us from a rescue as dog friendly and people friendly he is scared of strange things which to me indicate he has been beaten, he was TERRIFED of newspapers as we found out one day when I threw the paper to my OH and he hit the floor and wet himself. We have done lots of work on that and he is doing well now, he was also extremely hand shy the first time Craig went to play with him he hid under the table and wet himself and there were a few other things, there are also some things that get strange reactions that I don't understand a gun shot gets him so so wound up and in a hugely excited state similar to the presence of another dog, he is fine with cars buses push bikes etc but will react and try to chase motorbikes and tractors.  A part of me just wishes i could ask as i can work on the reaction but will never understand the reason he acts that way.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Rupert didn't need to see another dog to react to it. The sound of a dog barking in the distance or in a house or the jingle of keys or tags were enough to send him way over threshold. I tried desensitizing him to them but with no success. Possibly because the sounds did sometimes indicate a dog nearby?
> 
> Oh we tried for under threshold as much as possible. The problem was that as soon as we stepped out the front door it was like a switch was flicked. Rupert would go from chilled out to highly anxious immediately. I did a lot of work on opening and closing the door, stepping out and straight back in and we made a ton of progress until one day I opened the door and we were attacked by a dog. It didn't actually reach him as I slammed the door in its face but it attacked the door and after that no amount of work convinced him he was safe.
> 
> ...


Tbh I think it's so lucky he met up with you, most people couldn't & wouldn't have beebn so patient or been prepared to try half as hard as you did. He was obviously a credit to you getting as far as he did.

Roxy had (& has) her problems but no where near as bad as that. As I said, I (imo) don;pt think all dogs will all be able to cope with the same situations (but then I will admit I have zero expereince, this is just my opinion!).

Roxy could not cope with busy places, at all. I think, there comes a time when you have to recognise what problems you really must deal with in order to have a reasonably easier daily routine & those you can do without.

If I really had to address ALL Roxy's issues then we would never have a relaxing walk for years! I don't want every outing to be about 'fixing' her - as well as training I want her to enjoy her time running about being a dog without any pressure.

Roxy will never be comfortable being certain places & I'm happy with that, there are certain behaviours that we need to modify but some that I feel I have to accept as being Roxy. I don't think that a cop out, it's just accepting my dog for who she is


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Thanks all. I went through hell with Rupert at times but I honestly adored that dog and losing him broke my heart. I lost count of the number of times he had me in tears over something or other. Or of the number of times he had me sitting on the floor in the street waiting for him to come out of one of his panics and be able to move on. Or the number of times he made me laugh by purposely doing something stupid because he knew I was upset.

I don't regret a single minute I had with him and I miss him terribly every day.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sarah, do not beat yourself up, the FACTS are, that not EVERYTHING can be fixed.

To think otherwise is to be at best unrealistically optimistic and at worst, puts an unbearable burden of guilt onto an owner.

Sometimes as (insert name of relevant world famous behaviourist) says, you just have to manage it.

The definition of madness is not ONLY doing the same thing over and over again hoping for something different to happen; it also refers to spending a great deal of time, effort and emotional investment in trying to change the unchangeable.

Sometimes it is wise to remember the Serenity Prayer! 

God grant me the *serenity *to *accept *the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference

To do otherwise is to be doomed to a lifetime of frustration, disappointment and discontent.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> Sarah, do not beat yourself up, the FACTS are, that not EVERYTHING can be fixed.
> 
> To think otherwise is to be at best unrealistically optimistic and at worst, puts an unbearable burden of guilt onto an owner.
> 
> ...


Completely agree with you - really welll put!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> if he doesn't "like" the headcollar, there are several possible reasons:
> 
> - it was never properly habituated & positively-associated:
> he should gladly SHOVE HIS OWN FACE INTO IT, the handler only buckles it on.
> ...


IMO it is not the headcollar he does not like (goodVic2 isnt overly keen on em LOL)- he will happily shove his own face in it- it is the lack of freedom it offers him on sight of another dog that he fights, and he fights a headcollar no more than if I have to get hold of his normal collar to remove him from a situation- its not the kit its the restriction- which unfortunately in the real world he does HAVE to deal with on occassion!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Sarah, do not beat yourself up, the FACTS are, that not EVERYTHING can be fixed.
> 
> To think otherwise is to be at best unrealistically optimistic and at worst, puts an unbearable burden of guilt onto an owner.
> 
> ...


Thanks  I refuse to beat myself up over not being able to fix all his problems. At the end of the day I know I did my best for him and that he made so much progress because I put so much work in.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Sarah, do not beat yourself up, the FACTS are, that not EVERYTHING can be fixed.
> 
> *To think otherwise is to be at best unrealistically optimistic and at worst, puts an unbearable burden of guilt onto an owner.*
> 
> ...


The bit I've put in bold is so right. Because Bosley is not what I expected and is far more hard work than I could ever imagine I have gone through the horrible guilt. I've gone through the would he be better with someone else and still go through that feeling, I then feel guilty for ever thinking about getting rid of him, I've gone through the guilt of feeling like I'M letting him down by not been able to fix him, I've gone through the guilt of seeing Lexi fed up upset and bleeding where he's gone for her and knowing that this dog that was supposed to make her life a happier place is making her sad. And when you have these horrible thoughts running through your head to a degree its hard to stay calm and focused you want someone to come along with a quick fix and make it all go away. Its in situations like that you can see why some people resort to the not so nice methods, I would never ever use the likes of an e-collar or hit, kick etc my dog but I can see why when people feel so desperate and these methods show apparantly instant results why people go for it.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LexiLou2 said:


> The bit I've put in bold is so right. Because Bosley is not what I expected and is far more hard work than I could ever imagine I have gone through the horrible guilt. I've gone through the would he be better with someone else and still go through that feeling, I then feel guilty for ever thinking about getting rid of him, I've gone through the guilt of feeling like I'M letting him down by not been able to fix him, I've gone through the guilt of seeing Lexi fed up upset and bleeding where he's gone for her and knowing that this dog that was supposed to make her life a happier place is making her sad. And when you have these horrible thoughts running through your head to a degree its hard to stay calm and focused you want someone to come along with a quick fix and make it all go away. Its in situations like that you can see why some people resort to the not so nice methods, I would never ever use the likes of an e-collar or hit, kick etc my dog but I can see why when people feel so desperate and these methods show apparantly instant results why people go for it.


This is exactly how felt. It's a horrible feeling; I constantly felt I had let Roxy down, felt terrible that Toby was missing out as all the attention was on Roxy, felt guilty that he had turned into a scared dog after she had attacked him a few times, hated taking her ouit on walks as she was a bloody nightmare - then guitly for feeling like that 

LOL, I realised dog ownership wasn't supposed to be like that, it was supposed to be enjoyable!!!

Now I have stopped thinking like that; Roxy isn't with someone else she is my dog. I will try & train her to the best of my ability, using my judgement & setting realistic expectations of what I want. I also am not going to revolve my whole life around this as I was doing as it's not fair on everyone.

I love Roxy to bits, some days I wish she was easier but these days are not often now. we've just had an amazing walk, watching her swimming, enjoying herself so much makes my day.

Oh, & I recalled her from chasing a duck so I was extra happy!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

pierre said:


> ...i searched the net for a solution and came accross this website, from which i got some good advice
> and direction, i know it is a bit late for you now but it may help other people with similar probs.
> 
> [url - htt://tiny.c/0mambw]Dog Training Secrets[/url]
> ...


dear Pierre, 
_dog training is not a "secret",_ nor *a collection of secrets.*

that link leads to a hop-click page which sells a "system" for $97. It doesn't mention WHOSE 
dollars; presumably USA-currency.

htt://www.buydogtraining.biz/?hop=geordiem8

no, the link won't work; Yes, it doesn't work deliberately. Please take the *spam* elsewhere? :thumbdown:
thanks very much.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Bosley is... scared of strange things, *which to me indicates he has been beaten*,
> he was TERRIFED of newspapers... I threw the paper to my OH and he hit the floor and wet himself.
> ...


it's nice to know WHY - but it's not necessary to fix the behavior. It's gravy.

also, many dogs who've never been struck in their lives, have extreme fears of sudden movement. 
it's not fears caused by past beatings - it's pure & simple lack of happy exposures: they never had 
someone throw a toy, fling a ball, never saw a newspaper fly toward a door or porch, didn't meet 
friendly strangers during their critical period, & so on.

3 things IME are the most-likely to cause crippling behavior-problems lifelong: 
- leaving dam & sibs *BEFORE* an absolute minimum of *49-days age, & preferably 56-DO*, 
presuming the pup is not a singleton but has at least one sibling;

- lack of *socialization:* happy exposure to living beings - between 6-WO & 12-WO, 
which should continue thru 6-MO / puberty - & in the case of guarding-breeds or mixes, 
should continue thru the dog's first 24-mos;

- lack of *habituation:* happy exposure to sights, sounds, experiences, etc, in human environs 
& in other environs that the dog will be expected to cope with, in future: elevators, trains, 
traffic, fire-alarms, beeping construction-vehicles, microwaves, ticking toasters, etc, etc...

*shy* is the behavioral-term which includes all those fears U've mentioned, & more; 
*shy dogs can be BORN that way* - & it's extremely heritable, no shy dog should ever be bred, 
even if the dog improves massively due to B-Mod, the heritable trait is not eliminated... 
or *shy dogs can be MADE that way*, most-often by sheer neglect during their critical puppyhood.

assuming that all shy-dogs have had terrible past-lives does not do them or their families, any favors; 
guilt & pity don't translate to pro-active B-Mod, & frequently keep the dog frozen in their sad state.

i'm not saying that anyone POSTING here is not actively trying to help their own dog; i'm saying that 
i've seen far too-many adopters & even puppy-buyers, who blame their dog's fears on a sad past, 
& do nothing - except feel awful about their poor, poor dog. :nonod: That's not helpful.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Ive had a quick scan through this thread, not had time to read all posts yet but thought Id jump in and declare myself as someone who uses both positive reinforcement and what some would consider or would appear to some as negative reinforcement; but before I get lynch mobbed, let me explain 

I dont ignore the bad, I use corrections, however a correction as I use it is a distraction, it does not cause pain or fear in a dog, if it did, it wouldnt work and would damage the trusting relationship required to have a happy and harmonious existence with a dog, especially in the long term.

The word hey or a-a does not mean punishment to my dogs, Ive never followed it by something that hurts or scares them, it just means stop what youre doing and focus on me so I can show you what you should be doing (and I dont shout, Ill raise the volume slightly and lower the tone) whether that be playing or settling down etc.

Sometimes words/sounds arent enough as was the case with Rolo and Buster when I first got them  nothing generally considered positive would distract them when they saw another dog, theyd go from a 1 to a 10 on the intensity scale in the blink of an eye and I ended up using a physical correction to gain control and again this wasnt something that would cause them pain and was different for each dog, for example, with Buster, hes very sensitive so a quick, light-medium tug on the lead (not one that would lift/move his feet or cause him whiplash!!) and a firm hey was enough for me to gain his attention and his reaction would be complete relaxation and a look at me like Sorry mum dont know what possessed me there, thanks for helping me, what shall we do now? whereas with Rolo, his reaction would be so extreme at the sight of another dog and as a not-so-sensitive dog he would need a very firm nudge with my knee/shin on his bum (which was enough to move his back legs but not enough to cause pain/muscle damage) which would momentarily stop his fixation giving me enough time to quickly move and stand between him and the other dog and body-block saying a firm hey, moving forward into his space until he sat, then Id have the same Oops sorry mum, thanks for calming me down, what do we do now? (At which point Id initiate a game/praise/allow a meeting with the other dog/allow the walk to continue etc. whichever was the appropriate reward for the situation. And just to add that with Rolo, allowing an initial meeting with another dog once calmed would require myself or my OH physically directing his rear end toward the nose of the other dog once hed sniffed their rear end as he wouldnt offer it himself and would get worked up again, us offering it for him made him relax and enjoy being in the company of the other dog. Now 9 times out of 10 he allows his rear end to be sniffed by another dog himself, calmly.) 

Its much like with my OH when hes playing a game on his xbox, hes so focused on it that no matter how many times I call his name he doesnt hear me  they only way I can get his attention is with a nudge from my elbow or by standing between him and the screen!   

Whoever said that using a distraction means you have to escalate the distraction as time goes on Id have to disagree with; not in my experience anyway and if its done correctly then it should have the opposite effect, as time goes on, the less intense the reaction youre trying to control gets or the longer it takes to escalate so the less intense the correction has to be to gain attention. Now I only need a hey with both dogs most of the time and sometimes literally just a touch with my hand on the dogs side as they take a lot longer to increase their intensity if they do react to something and I can stop it escalating early with the lightest touch or a word.

Its very important that for corrections or distractions, (whatever you want to call them) to work, they are tailored to each dog; use a correction/distraction thats too severe for a particular dog and you will cause fear but use a correction/distraction that doesnt match the intensity of the dogs behaviour or thats not harsh enough (Im reluctant to use the word harsh here as it should never be harsh otherwise its too much and will cause fear but hopefully youll know what I mean, maybe strong would be a better word or I should rephrase to say enough to gain attention?) then it will have no effect and will desensitise the dog to your requests. 

I think maybe people who discourage corrections/distractions like Ive described above are worried that people will over correct/distract or under correct/distract which is fair enough as doing that can be unfair on the dog and/or worsen behaviour but IMO it should never be blanket-ley discouraged for that reason, instead more time should be focused, where possible and appropriate, on teaching the handler how to correctly read the dog so they become knowledgeable enough to implement the right correction/distraction for their dog. 

Im always a fan of using as few gadgets as possible because in real life its not possible to have this thing and that thing in every situation, nor is it possible to avoid this situation and that situation all the time and gradually re-introduce things all the time. Using correction/distraction has enabled me and my OH to be able to control our dogs in any situation without any special gadgets in a relatively short period of time so we and our dogs can be relaxed and get enjoyment from walks and the company of other dogs instead of spending years avoiding situations or slowly building up to one thing or another.

A year or two or three etc. is a very long time in a dogs life and those should be spent enjoying the world not avoiding it or getting worked up and not corrected/distracted effectively by your owner leading to stressful situation after stressful situation while they continue using a few methods some others (purely positive people) wont frown upon that arent working in that situation.

Also, just to add, how youre feeling when delivering a correction/distraction is massively important too, if youre anything but calm and confidant/assertive then it either wont work or will have a negative impact.

Sorry for the hhheeeuuugggeee post!


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Well we have had an intense 'doggy' weekend with Bosley and he did well, on sunday we went on a group dog walk and after the initial excitement settled and even managed about 20 mins on his longline just trotting around calmly.
We then went to a point to point race meetin gin the afternoon and to be honest handled it badly to begin and threw him in at the deep end and he lunged at a couple of dogs, we reassessed and went and stood in a quite area and he soon settled and by the end of the day he was alid out snoozing in the sun so he did settle down and enjoy being with the dogs, then came home andhe had a walk round the streets with my mum and saw a lab and totally lost it which was a low point.
Yesterday we walked through a dog heavy area and he was really good walking past an am bul had a tiny weeny growl at an airdale but only because it lunged at him trying to sniff him and was brilliant with a run away lab.
I;m doing a lot of work on his leave command now doing 15 mins every night training (any longer he gets bored).
I don't have CU so have ordered that and after watching some videos on you tube I think I've been doing the LAT game wrong so I a starting that again.
Can any one in brief explain the concept behind "go crazy.....freeze" I think I am doing a version of that anyway on my own, as part of his training session we play with the tuggy and then he is asked to sit, play with the tuggy and sit so he gets into the game then has to snap out of it and sit, does this sound right?
We are going to alter our walking pattern to try and take him somewhere more dog heavy at least twice a week and use purely as training and we alre also going to try and get out and about to different places that are dog heavy as realistcally we have been avoiding them where as I think we need to face them and train through it.
If i say anything and anyone thinks stupid girl please let me know.


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

I would be careful not to 'flood' him by taking him into these dog heavy areas. It is quite possible to fry a dog's nervous system with system overload.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Thats the frustrating thing with Bosley the longer he spends in these enviroments the more chilled out and relaxed he gets, like I say by the end of Sundy he was laid down snoozing and just watching all the dogs walk by, yet when we first got there he was like a coiled spring!!


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

LexyLou, have you seen this video clip yet?
susan garrett bad dog trainer - YouTube.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

No I don't think so, I'm at work at the minute so will watch it when I get home. Is it a good video or a bad video?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

spaniel04 said:


> LexyLou, have you seen this video clip yet?
> susan garrett bad dog trainer - YouTube.


Which one?


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

The first one 'Building drive ....."

It is good. It shows how playing tuggy should be done, and how a lot of people do it instead.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Galadriel17 said:


> Ive had a quick scan through this thread, not had time to read all posts yet but thought Id jump in and declare myself as someone who uses both positive reinforcement and what some would consider or would appear to some as negative reinforcement; but before I get lynch mobbed, let me explain
> 
> I dont ignore the bad, I use corrections, however a correction as I use it is a distraction, it does not cause pain or fear in a dog, if it did, it wouldnt work and would damage the trusting relationship required to have a happy and harmonious existence with a dog, especially in the long term.
> 
> ...


These are indeed punishments you are using. A punishment is anything that decreases the likelihood of a preceding behaviour, and this is exactly what you got.

I do not think using distractions like these is an effective way to train dogs. I have seen many dogs who have been trained using them and, IMO, those dogs are not calm and relaxed as the owners think, but often anxious and very avoiding of the situation through being punished in the past for X or Y behaviour. I have seen dogs offering a multitude of calming signals and distance-increasing signals, showing discomfort and unease, whilst owners have assured me the dog is fine.

Regardless of your success with your dogs, I just want to highlight the points above as my opinion for the posters that started this thread.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Rottiefan said:


> These are indeed punishments you are using. A punishment is anything that decreases the likelihood of a preceding behaviour, and this is exactly what you got.
> 
> I do not think using distractions like these is an effective way to train dogs. I have seen many dogs who have been trained using them and, IMO, those dogs are not calm and relaxed as the owners think, but often anxious and very avoiding of the situation through being punished in the past for X or Y behaviour. I have seen dogs offering a multitude of calming signals and distance-increasing signals, showing discomfort and unease, whilst owners have assured me the dog is fine.
> 
> Regardless of your success with your dogs, I just want to highlight the points above as my opinion for the posters that started this thread.


Well if that's your definition of punishment then distracting using something like a squeeky toy is punishment too 

Believe me, I can read my (and other) dogs well and would *never* do anything that would lead to them becoming more uncomfortable. The whole point of me distracting my dog(s) is to _end_ the discomfort/frustration they're feeling.

This is what annoys me about some purely positive trainers - the assumption that if you use anything but purely positive methods then you don't know what you're doing and can't read a dog's body language.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> These are indeed punishments you are using. A punishment is anything that decreases the likelihood of a preceding behaviour, and this is exactly what you got.
> 
> I do not think using distractions like these is an effective way to train dogs. I have seen many dogs who have been trained using them and, IMO, those dogs are not calm and relaxed as the owners think, but often anxious and very avoiding of the situation through being punished in the past for X or Y behaviour. I have seen dogs offering a multitude of calming signals and distance-increasing signals, showing discomfort and unease, whilst owners have assured me the dog is fine.
> 
> Regardless of your success with your dogs, I just want to highlight the points above as my opinion for the posters that started this thread.


I'm not disagreeing with you as this is your opinion, ime with my dog this is not the case.

Just for reference even if I were to continue using PR only methods how would you (or others) calm a dog who was completely kicking off? I know all about keeping a dog under threshhold, etc but out int he real world I may turn a corner & there's another dog. As soon as Roxy would seein the dog then she would instantly kick off - no gradually getting worse but straight from calm to full on lunging/barking, etc - what would peurely PR people do now when a toy/treat, etc isn't working. say this happened on tomorrow walk so no time for training - how would you remedy the situation? I am just interested 

We just had a similar situation which I didn't use PR. I didn't use the bottle either I forgot it!!!). Roxy saw the dog, went to kick off, when I shouted 'NO' really loudly. She shut up. We walked up to the approaching dog, the man asked if Roxyu was alright, I said she was a bit OTT, we let the dogs off & they ran around - fine, no problems.

Had I tried to distact her with a toy then this wouldn't have worked (it hasn't so far), I would have tried the 'watch me', etc, Roxy would have seen the dog, got OTT, kicked off, the man would then have thought she was horrible dog, passed us quickly & no meet - no nice play for either of the dogs .... this was how it always used to pan out.

This may be a temptorary fix but the habit of her kicking off is starting to break. She is now having more meets with other dogs as she doesn't look like some savage beast  I didn't blame other owners from keeping their dogs away from her - I would have too tbh.

I also have witnessd Roxy displaying claming signals, etc as she gets so upset from getting herself so stressed. Stopping her behaviour has decreased this, has stopped her getting so upset & meant that she has a more relaxing .

She seems calmer & her behaviour has improved alot. We couldn't have carried on as were were doing so i am more thn ahppy with my decision although I can understans that this is not for all dogs, I would never say it was


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

Galadriel17 said:


> Well if that's your definition of punishment then distracting using something like a squeeky toy is punishment too
> 
> Believe me, I can read my (and other) dogs well and would *never* do anything that would lead to them becoming more uncomfortable. The whole point of me distracting my dog(s) is to _end_ the discomfort/frustration they're feeling.
> 
> This is what annoys me about some purely positive trainers - the assumption that if you use anything but purely positive methods then you don't know what you're doing and can't read a dog's body language.


These conversations are impossible unless we're all speaking the same language 

Rottiefan is referring to punishment in the behavioral science term, not the emotionally laden term that so many take offense to.

IOW:
Punishment = anything that makes a behavior decrease in frequency.
Reinforcement = anything that makes a behavior increase in frequency.
Positive = added
Negative = taken away

In this sense, if when you say "hey" to your dog he stops the behavior, then "hey" is positive punishment in that the behavior stopped and "hey" was a sharp noise added to his environment.

"Positive" trainers do NOT use "purely positive" methods as that would be nothing but positive reinforcement and positive punishment. +P is something progressive trainers actively try to avoid. Yes, sometimes it happens by accident, but its not used deliberately as a means to teach the dog behaviors.

Its acutally impossible to teach *behavior* with +P, all you can teach with +P is what NOT to do - non-behaviors. (Probably why so many shock jocks love to post training videos of their dogs doing stays. Stay is essentially a non-behavior and lends itself quite well to +P training.) And this is another issue with +P is that it only informs the dog of what NOT to do. There are a bazillion things you may NOT want your dog to do in a situation where he encounters another dog and only a few you DO want him to do. For my reactive guy, I want him to ignore the other dog and focus on me. So I teach "ignore" which is essentially a "leave it", and I teach a default attention. Once he knows these behaviors, I proof them under increasingly difficult distractions and eventually I have a dog who knows exactly what is expected when he encounters another dog. Over and over and over again this type of training has been proven to work very effectively and realiably LONG TERM, without the unnecessary fall-out that you can get with punishment.

I agree with rottiefan in that often these dogs "fixed" by +P ARE very nervous and worried about getting it "wrong". Are there dogs who do okay with punishment? Sure. But they are not the majority and its simply not a risk worth taking IMO when there are other ways that have been proven so much more effective. JMO


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

It is impossible to train any species without some form of punishment, these are the facts, anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a) not honest or b) uneducated.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> It is impossible to train any species without some form of punishment, these are the facts, anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a) not honest or b) uneducated.


I agree that it is impossible to avoid punishement in any training program, nor do I think it wise to attempt it - there is a lot to be said for a dog who has encountered aversives and knows how to recover from it.

However, I would argue that you truly cannot teach behaviors with punishment, as by definition punishment causes cessation of behavior. You can teach NON-behavior with punishment, but you still left out the part about what you want the dog to DO instead. And if I'm wanting to teach a dog to DO something, +R is the way to go to build a super-reliable, strong behavior. Having trained with both -R and +R, I can honestly say the +R behaviors have always been stronger and more reliable.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> These conversations are impossible unless we're all speaking the same language
> 
> Rottiefan is referring to punishment in the behavioral science term, not the emotionally laden term that so many take offense to.
> 
> ...


OK, slightly confused; what's the difference between me saying 'hey' instead of using a 'focus' or 'look at me' command? When I use 'hey' it means look at me so I can show you what I want you to do. How is 'hey' a punishment when it makes his ignoring (of anything but me) behaviour more frequent?

Would using a toy to distract not then be positive punishment? As it makes the reacting to another dog decrease in frequency?

Is ignoring bad behaviour for example a punishment too then although neither a negative or a positive as nothing is being taken away or added? Then again your attention is taken away so does that make it a negative punishment?

Maybe I'm being thick here?


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## pierre (Mar 23, 2012)

Having read this post, well most of it, the decision of positive or negative training is totally down to you , the owner and i hope leader, we must all have the welfare of our dogs at heart and understand what makes them tick, our dogs respond differently and we must allow for that, whatever happens our dogs welfare comes first, first and foremost is our dog. So i sort information and alternate methods for my cherie and i came accross this site on the net which gave me some valuable information to the benifit of me and cherie.

pierre

Dog Training Secrets


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> It is impossible to train any species without some form of punishment, these are the facts, anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a) not honest or b) uneducated.





ouesi said:


> I agree that it is impossible to avoid punishement in any training program, nor do I think it wise to attempt it - there is a lot to be said for a dog who has encountered aversives and knows how to recover from it.
> 
> However, I would argue that you truly cannot teach behaviors with punishment, as by definition punishment causes cessation of behavior. You can teach NON-behavior with punishment, but you still left out the part about what you want the dog to DO instead. And if I'm wanting to teach a dog to DO something, +R is the way to go to build a super-reliable, strong behavior. Having trained with both -R and +R, I can honestly say the +R behaviors have always been stronger and more reliable.


OK I get it  so any trainer who claims to be purely positive is either using the term in an everyday/emotionally laden sense when technically they're talking rubbish.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Galadriel17 said:


> OK I get it  so any trainer who claims to be purely positive is either using the term in an everyday/emotionally laden sense when technically they're talking rubbish.


Correct.

Usually due to "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" syndrome.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

Galadriel17 said:


> OK, slightly confused; what's the difference between me saying 'hey' instead of using a 'focus' or 'look at me' command? When I use 'hey' it means look at me so I can show you what I want you to do. How is 'hey' a punishment when it makes his ignoring (of anything but me) behaviour more frequent?
> 
> Would using a toy to distract not then be positive punishment? As it makes the reacting to another dog decrease in frequency?
> 
> ...


 It depends on what "hey" predicts to a dog. If the dog has historically heard "hey" followed by your attention or a treat from you, then "hey" is a predictor of a reward and the action of looking at you is a behavior taught with positive reinforcement.
However, if "hey" has historically been followed by a correction such as a collar pop or a finger jab, then "hey" is a predictor of a punishment and the action of looking at you is taught by negative reinforcement. (Dog learns that if he looks at the person saying "hey" the threat of punishment will go away.)

This is separate and apart from a simple startle response that is not operant conditioning at all.

If the toy is something the dog wants, then no, it is not punishment. However, if the noise of the toy squeaking is annoying to the dog and that is what makes the dog stop doing whatever he is doing, then the toy becomes punishment.

Punishment and rewards are defined by the the dog, not by the action itself. What one dog finds rewarding is punishing to another.

Also, good trainers can condition a dog to find what suits them punishing or rewarding. You can condition a dog to work for anything from a sliver of cheese to a bite sleeve. The stronger your conditioned reinforcer, the stronger the punishment when you remove it. So in this way, I can punish my dog strongly by simply looking away from him and a slap on the bum is a reward for him


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Galadriel17 said:


> Well if that's your definition of punishment then distracting using something like a squeeky toy is punishment too


As Ouesi outlined above, I was using the behavioural science definition. Sorry for the confusion, but we do need to be speaking off the same page, especially when we are making arguments against each other!



> Believe me, I can read my (and other) dogs well and would *never* do anything that would lead to them becoming more uncomfortable. The whole point of me distracting my dog(s) is to _end_ the discomfort/frustration they're feeling.


You see, my experience tells me that a distraction does not end any discomfort, necessarily. Dogs who are being distracted can be as nervous as before physiologically and sometimes behaviourally, but they show it in different ways. It is the nuances of doggy signals that people often miss out on- a lip lick there, some muscle tension, looking away or a slight freeze even before reacting. As I said, though, I am not making assumptions in your case, only offering opinion from experiences.



> This is what annoys me about some purely positive trainers - the assumption that if you use anything but purely positive methods then you don't know what you're doing and can't read a dog's body language.


As has been covered, using the term purely positive or positive reinforcement as a broad definition of rewards-based training is wrought with complications. Punishment is, most likely, going to be used. Ignoring a dog for jumping up is negative punishment, because you have removed access to a reinforcer, e.g. the reward of you giving attention to the dog, which your dog is trying to get.

However, I think Smokeybear is a little too presumptuous with his/her claims. I can teach many behaviours by not using punishment, e.g. using shaping methods, I don't punish at all, I just reinforce when the dog does X behaviour.



Cleo38 said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you as this is your opinion, ime with my dog this is not the case.
> 
> Just for reference even if I were to continue using PR only methods how would you (or others) calm a dog who was completely kicking off? I know all about keeping a dog under threshhold, etc but out int he real world I may turn a corner & there's another dog. As soon as Roxy would seein the dog then she would instantly kick off - no gradually getting worse but straight from calm to full on lunging/barking, etc - what would peurely PR people do now when a toy/treat, etc isn't working. say this happened on tomorrow walk so no time for training - how would you remedy the situation? I am just interested
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you are asking? How would I deal with a dog who is overthreshold and reacting? Simply, by getting the hell out of the situation as fast as possible to stop any longer damage to the behaviour.

At that point, it is damage control. This is not a training set up and so when I do use a positive punishment, such as shouting, or some other loud noise, I am not training I am managing a situation.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

_However, I think Smokeybear is a little too presumptuous with his/her claims. I can teach many behaviours by not using punishment, e.g. using shaping methods, I don't punish at all, I just reinforce when the dog does X behaviour. _

Not presumptous at all, just factual.

I repeat it is _impossible _to train a dog without ANY form of punishment. People THINK they can but it is actually impossible.

to think otherwise is to fly in the face of peer reviewed science and both theoretical and empirical knowledge. 

This by Melissa Alexander adequately states the obvious I think.

The Myth of "Purely Positive" | Karen Pryor Clickertraining

The other "myth" is that no training occurs when you are not consciously "training".

As of course dogs are learning 24/7 and unconscious training occurs all the time, despite what some people would have you

believe. 

Extract from link:

_Extinction and negative punishment are both used by clicker trainers, and BOTH are aversive. Extinction is every bit as aversive as punishment, sometimes even more so. So even trainers who try to avoid negative punishment still have an aversive element to their training if they're using extinction. All aversives are not created equal. Some are mild and some are severe. Whether the aversive is due to something being added, something being removed, or something just not paying off _

HTH


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> _However, I think Smokeybear is a little too presumptuous with his/her claims. I can teach many behaviours by not using punishment, e.g. using shaping methods, I don't punish at all, I just reinforce when the dog does X behaviour. _
> 
> Not presumptous at all, just factual.
> 
> ...


So a dog I train to "Look left" has been punished in the sequence of training? Or have I been punishing them in any sequence? I think your comment is relative and lacks a clear definition or explanation.

Also, you fly in the face of peer reviewed science by precisely saying something is a fact. You should know better than that


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> So a dog I train to "Look left" has been punished in the sequence of training? Or have I been punishing them in any sequence? I think your comment is relative and lacks a clear definition or explanation.
> 
> Also, you fly in the face of peer reviewed science by precisely saying something is a fact. You should know better than that


If you shape behaviours, you are looking for a dog to stop doing something (extinction) and do something else.

Extinction = punishment.

Remember, it is the DOG that decides what is punishing and what is rewarding, not the view of the trainer.

If the dog is not reinforced for his behaviour he is thus "punished" for that behviour by not getting what he wants thus the behaviour becomes less likely.

I hope that clarifies this for you.

But perhaps you can find a corresponding text to support your "mistaken" views by any of the following:

David Appleby
David Ryan
Anne Bussey
Adam Beral
Chirag Patel
Jean Donaldson
Sophia Yin
Karen Pryor
Nina Bondarenko
Gwen Bailey
James O Heare
Kay Laurence
Mary Burch 
John Bailey
Pamela Reid
Patricia McConnell
Sarah Whitehead
Roger Abrantes

et al

which says "_it is entirely possible to train any sentient being without the use of any punishment_"?

I look forward to your references. 

I also look forward to attending your seminars on the subject  So, I am sure, will all of the above!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> As Ouesi outlined above, I was using the behavioural science definition. Sorry for the confusion, but we do need to be speaking off the same page, especially when we are making arguments against each other!
> 
> You see, my experience tells me that a distraction does not end any discomfort, necessarily. Dogs who are being distracted can be as nervous as before physiologically and sometimes behaviourally, but they show it in different ways. It is the nuances of doggy signals that people often miss out on- a lip lick there, some muscle tension, looking away or a slight freeze even before reacting. As I said, though, I am not making assumptions in your case, only offering opinion from experiences.
> 
> ...


I agree with you to a degree, using a distraction did not work hence the noise interrupter. With Roxy, I can now see this isn't nervousness but frustration- she wants to meet the other dog.

Asking what people would do was just a question  I just wondered what other people would do as this is what I still do at times. Other times it's not always possible. We do still [practise techniques & I also do scarry the bottle of stones as I don;t want every encounter with another dog to be one we have to walk away from.

Meeting the dog on yesterday's walk after she was told 'no' was a positive encounter for her (despite me using my voice as an aversive) which, I feel was beneficial for her. If she had of kicked off & we walked the other way, she would have missed out & our walk would have been cut short.



smokeybear said:


> _However, I think Smokeybear is a little too presumptuous with his/her claims. I can teach many behaviours by not using punishment, e.g. using shaping methods, I don't punish at all, I just reinforce when the dog does X behaviour. _
> 
> Not presumptous at all, just factual.
> 
> ...


I cant' see how anyone can train without any sort of punishment. If I withold a reward when with of the dogs doesn't complete the command then surely this is a punishment?  For Toby this is a BIG deal as he lives for his food!

When training 'drop' if my dog doesn't drop then I end the game - surely this is also a 'punishment'?

When they are offlead & one of them ignores a 'here' command I go to them & put them on their lead. Offlead times ends so surely it's is a type of punishment.

Roxy got excited for her walk & started jumping around so I went & sat back down again, waited for her to calm down before putting her harness on - again, ignoring her & making out we weren't goping out was a form of punishment .... or am I not understanding?

When we first rehomed Roxy she started attacking Toby (for no apparent reason) in the evening. There were no warnings - it would happen in a split second. Obviously we took measures to prevent any further attacks (she was leashed) but each time she did it she was put oput of the room, on her own, again a punishment but there was no way I could have used a distraction or ignored that sort of behaviour


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> If you shape behaviours, you are looking for a dog to stop doing something (extinction) and do something else.


Not necessarily.

If you are shaping behaviors without a specific end behavior in mind, simply clicking any attempt at behavior, how is punishment involved? Unless you are including previous training where the dog was taught that treats have to be earned... But in the actual shaping session, there is no punishment happening.

And what about capturing? How is punishment involved in capturing?

Yes, overall in the 24/7 living with the dog, punishment WILL happen, no doubt. But in a specific training session it is possible to teach a single behavior without using punishment. At least the way I'm thinking about it


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> If you are shaping behaviors without a specific end behavior in mind, simply clicking any attempt at behavior, how is punishment involved? Unless you are including previous training where the dog was taught that treats have to be earned... But in the actual shaping session, there is no punishment happening.
> 
> ...


ROFLMAO so you are SHAPING a behaviour without anything in mind?

So let me see, I take a quoit and I want to shape A behaviour, how do you go about this without a) reinforcing someting and b) punishing something and c) without "_anything in mind_"?

Remembering that behaviour which is not _reinforced _is _punished _by NOT being _reinforced_

_Capturing_

So you CAPTURE a (for example) sit. What happens next?

(I think you will find that shaping happens next) ROFLMAO

Ie you have CAPTURED the sit and you then INCREASE the LIKELIHOOD of a repeat by REINFORCEMENT.

The dog does not immediately put 2 + 2 together, so he tries something else (particularly if the timing of the trainer is poor or something else has occurred simultaneously) and is PUNISHED by not receiving reinforcement.

So this makes the likelihood of the this behaviour less likely.

I repeat, it is impossible to train any sentient being with the use of punishers.

What most people do is to argue about the SEVERITY of the punishment rather than the EXISTENCE of it. 

Ie it is ok to withhold wha the dog wants = negative punishment but NOT to zap the dog with a zillion volts = positive punishment.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

To elaborate.

I am shaping my dog to put her offside fore paw into the quoit.

Every time she makes an approximation to this end behaviour I reinforce it, every time she carries out any other behaviour which does not result in a micro shaping opportunity for reinforcement she is, in effect, being punished by me witholding that reinforcement.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> To elaborate.
> 
> I am shaping my dog to put her offside fore paw into the quoit.
> 
> Every time she makes an approximation to this end behaviour I reinforce it, every time she carries out any other behaviour which does not result in a micro shaping opportunity for reinforcement she is, in effect, being punished by me witholding that reinforcement.


Is withholding a reinforcement negative punishment? There is no yes/no answer to this, I think, as many people have had this discussion (or argument!).

Many people argue that a behaviour can be punished only if that behaviour has been performed (and, to my knowledge, I think this is what Skinner indicated too). Is a dog that sits when you don't open a door being negatively punished for standing (assuming they've went from a stand to a sit)?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Is withholding a reinforcement negative punishment? There is no yes/no answer to this, I think, as many people have had this discussion (or argument!).
> 
> Many people argue that a behaviour can be punished only if that behaviour has been performed (and, to my knowledge, I think this is what Skinner indicated too). Is a dog that sits when you don't open a door being negatively punished for standing (assuming they've went from a stand to a sit)?


I think the DEFINITIVE answer to your first question is "maybe".

A lot depends on the a) the skill of the trainer and b) the dog etc

I agree with Karen Pryor ie a_ punishment, technically, is anything that shortens or stops a behaviour. Technically, a reward or a punisher has no specific definition; its just anything weve chosen that we think our learner might like or might avoid._

So at one extreme a dog which actively AVOIDS doing something has been punished OR at the other, has not developed sufficient resilience (through careful exposure) to go through disappointment.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Another good article, explaining the difficulties applying punishment to methods such as shaping...
ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Extinction

From the article:



> *Comparison of extinction and negative punishment:*
> 
> Both decrease the occurrence of a behavior over time.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> ROFLMAO so you are SHAPING a behaviour without anything in mind?


Um, yes... Have you not heard of 101 things to do with a box? Have you not read books like "When Pigs Fly?" Have you not worked with crossover dogs? If you don't FREE shape - as in click any attempt at offering a behavior, you will not have much success teaching a crossover dog to be operant. Make that a badly abused dog who has practiced absence of behavior (shut down) as a coping mechanism for years, and you won't get far even with the most mild of negative punishment.

::Shrug:: I'm all about exchange of ideas, but your dismissive, mocking attitude is not my idea of a productive conversation. I'm out


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Um, yes... Have you not heard of 101 things to do with a box? Have you not read books like "When Pigs Fly?" Have you not worked with crossover dogs? If you don't FREE shape - as in click any attempt at offering a behavior, you will not have much success teaching a crossover dog to be operant. Make that a badly abused dog who has practiced absence of behavior (shut down) as a coping mechanism for years, and you won't get far even with the most mild of negative punishment.
> 
> ::Shrug:: I'm all about exchange of ideas, but your dismissive, mocking attitude is not my idea of a productive conversation. I'm out


Er yes I have HEARD of 101 things to do with a box, I have READ When Pigs Fly, I have WORKED with crossover dogs.

Free shaping does not mean you shape for EVERY behaviour, otherwise no SHAPING takes place does it.

Thank you for the lecture on how to train, most instructive, who knew!

Goodbye.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Another good article, explaining the difficulties applying punishment to methods such as shaping...
> ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Extinction
> 
> From the article:


I think the word that stand out for me in this extract is *MAY*

It *MAY *have side effects .... so, it also may not have side effects


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I think the word that stand out for me in this extract is *MAY*
> 
> It *MAY *have side effects .... so, it also may not have side effects


Cleo, I was not posting it to argue about side effects. I was posting it to show that extinction and punishment are not the same, and so shaping does not use punishment necessarily.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> It is impossible to train any species without some form of punishment, these are the facts,
> anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is *a*) not honest or *b*) uneducated.


what *punishment*, as defined by behavior science, e-g, something which STOPS or REDUCES the frequency 
of a prior behavior - is being used in these videos?

Building Trust With Your Bird - YouTube 
features psittacines responding to visual & verbal cues

Safari zoo (Israel) scenes- gorilla training - YouTube 
OC at an Israeli zoo - see the right-margin for other species OC

Gorilla Oliver Choosing NOT to train - Gorilla Haven History - YouTube 
a training-savvy gorilla says, "No, thanks - not now..." to a training session.

Koko Responds to a Sad Movie - YouTube 
Koko reacts to a sad movie-scene - signing her reactions.

a 1978 docu on Koko's training: 
Koko: A Talking Gorilla [1/8] - YouTube 
#1 of 8 clips.

teach a tiger to enter a narrow aisle & lie-down: 
Tiger training - YouTube


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> ROFLMAO :lol: ...so you are SHAPING a behaviour without anything in mind?


yes. This is quite possible - see Karen Pryor's explanation of training dolphins to OFFER CREATIVE BEHAVIORS: 
IOW, a cue for *'do something U have not done before'*. that's quite a sophisticated concept, 
but the animals not only learned to invent novel behaviors, they invented behviors no-one knew 
were possible, including "mirror" behaviors as a pair: both animals do X simultaneously.

given these were behaviors literally never trained or observed before, that's quite astonishing.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> Another good article, explaining the difficulties applying punishment to methods such as shaping...
> ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Extinction
> 
> From the article:





> *Comparison of extinction & negative punishment:*
> [snip]
> 
> Punishment is an effective means of changing behavior, but even when used correctly, it may have side effects,
> including fear and aggression. *Extinction has not been shown to have those side effects.*


that's not strictly true: Extinction in marine-mammals has indeed resulted in aggro behavior, 
up to & including assaults on the trainer - bites, ram the trainer in the water, aggro-displays 
[open-mouthed gape threats, tail-slapping angrily, spit water, slop water over the trainer, etc - 
they can be mild, bullying, or downright dangerous].

Extinction in horses can also result in dangerous behavior, as horses use force, aggro, shove & bite, 
etc, to express displeasure or frustration with another horse, & may use the same tactics on humans - 
who are a lot smaller & less sturdy than another half-ton equine. :scared:

As so often, _'it depends...'_  Some individuals react very badly indeed to any frustration, 
even mild upset; others are mildly fussed, but not emotionally explosive.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Cleo, I was not posting it to argue about side effects. I was posting it to show that extinction and punishment are not the same, and so shaping does not use punishment necessarily.


Apologies!

Re-reading the article though I found this section rto be applicable to our problems....

_"However, for this to be true, the trainer must control the reinforcement. If a behavior is either self-rewarding or rewarded by the environment, extinction will fail unless the trainer can consistently offer a better reward. Barking is frequently a self-rewarded behavior. Waiting for a dog barking at passers-by to simply get bored from "lack of reinforcement" is an exercise in futility. When dealing with self-rewarding or environmentally-rewarded behaviors, a combination of management, positive reinforcement, and negative punishment are an alternative solution"_

Extintion in Roxy's reactivity obviously isn't an option as she would never get bored of the barking/lunging which would then be self rewarding. By ending this (imo) I have stopped a self rewarding behaviour although I realise that I am not using a negative punishment when I shake the bottle of stones or say 'no'

I am also not entirely convinced that extinction could be used in alot of circumstances. When Roxy used to jump up at people there was no way you could ignore it (unless you were incredibly strong & well built!) as she would knock people down.

We did teach her to sit before anyone came in, if she got up, then the visitor had to go back outside (people hated coming to our house, they could never just come in & have a cup of tea!) but it did work. So I suppose this would be a negative punishment.

I think (as was mentioned a in several posts by several members) that some punishments will depend on the dog & what s/he considers a punishment. Squirting water in Roxy's face would not be a punishment as she LOVES water. She often sticks her face in front of the hose pipe when we water the garden (although not this year!).

I am no expert by an means but to use extinction in some instances with Roxy has added to frustration. I mentioned in another thread discussing play & learning tricks that Roxy become quite stressed when she does not know what is 'expected' of her.

I played a game with both dogs seperately (as advised by the behaviourist i was seeing at the time) which just involved the dog, a cardboard box & to click when they gave a new behaviour.

Toby loves this game & show off a bit; he will sit in the box, kick it, push it, etc & is quite inventive. Roxy doesn't like this at all (I think ouesi recommended a book that I have still yet to buy that encourages dogs like to to enjoy the game more). Roxy whines, then lays down or has even gone to the door to go out of the room. She seems to find it uncomfortable if I ignore her or she isn't 'told' what to do - not sure why, but this game really showed me how different the dogs are when it comes to games such as this


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Apologies!
> 
> Re-reading the article though I found this section rto be applicable to our problems....
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone has advised just to use extinction on the behaviours- that would be silly, especially when the behaviour is being reinforced by other dogs moving away from Roxy too.

I think you misunderstand the distinction between what we are advising to do, and what you have done (e.g. LAT etc.), and what the article is talking about.

Yes, by using a bottle of stones, you are stopping the self-rewarding behaviour (however, I am not too sure the extent to which the behaviour can be said to be self-rewarding in this context, as it usually occurs when the dog is over-threshold and is distressed = not rewarding at all!) but that does not provide evidence for the bottle of stones technique, technically.

By using LAT/CAT/BAT techniques you are not letting the dog react to a stimuli, you are keeping the dog underthreshold and only working on exercises whilst the dog stays there. And for very reactive dogs, they need to be way under threshold for the exercises to work best. You can't have the dog on the edge of the threshold as that is very slow going.

Once the dog reacts, moving out of the situation as quickly as possible is the name of the game. Yes, this is actually rewarding the dog for barking too (moving away) but this is why using these techniques is difficult and the environment and training set-ups need to be managed.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> I don't think anyone has advised just to use extinction on the behaviours- that would be silly, especially when the behaviour is being reinforced by other dogs moving away from Roxy too.
> 
> I think you misunderstand the distinction between what we are advising to do, and what you have done (e.g. LAT etc.), and what the article is talking about.
> 
> ...


No, I can see why extinction isn't used for certain behaviours.

I do question though that the use of extinction isn't also stressful to the dog in some instances.

"Punishment is an effective means of changing behavior, but even when used correctly, it may have side effects, including fear and aggression. *Extinction has not been shown to have those side effects*"

As I mentioned, Roxy does start to get anxious/stressed when I have used this in the game with the box. The signs aren't obvious but subtle; licking lips, yawning, head down. I think she knows that we are 'training' as the clicker & treat bag are there but just doesn't know what I want her to do so becomes anxious hence the calming signals.

Jut typing that makes me think that maybe I should try without the clicker & training bag to see if that makes a difference but I do think there is an definite difference in how both my dogs view a game like this


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> No, I can see why extinction isn't used for certain behaviours.
> 
> I do question though that the use of extinction isn't also stressful to the dog in some instances.
> 
> ...


Shaping games- like the box game I think you're playing- are excellent for building dogs' 'confidence', for want of a better term. They help impulse control and relax a dog, making them more susceptible to training in the future. I also believe they learn to read us a lot better through shaping, and this in turn improves attention.

However, many dogs, particularly dogs who become aroused rapidly, do find these games frustrating. In my opinion, beginning with the box game for Roxy is way too quick too soon. When I am shaping a rescue dog to do a behaviour, I always start incredibly slow to begin with, e.g. just shaping eye contact, or maybe a hand target, or 'Go To Mat'. We can then move on to other behaviours, but anything more usually frustrates the dog, I agree.

However, that said, I do value shaping hugely and would urge you not to discard it (if you have) as it would be a great thing to build on to help Roxy's issues and general levels of excitement.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2012)

Rottiefan said:


> Shaping games- like the box game I think you're playing- are excellent for building dogs' 'confidence', for want of a better term. They help impulse control and relax a dog, making them more susceptible to training in the future. I also believe they learn to read us a lot better through shaping, and this in turn improves attention.
> 
> However, many dogs, particularly dogs who become aroused rapidly, do find these games frustrating. In my opinion, beginning with the box game for Roxy is way too quick too soon. When I am shaping a rescue dog to do a behaviour, I always start incredibly slow to begin with, e.g. just shaping eye contact, or maybe a hand target, or 'Go To Mat'. We can then move on to other behaviours, but anything more usually frustrates the dog, I agree.
> 
> However, that said, I do value shaping hugely and would urge you not to discard it (if you have) as it would be a great thing to build on to help Roxy's issues and general levels of excitement.


I need to just smile and nod any time you post LOL. Spot on, all of the above. Definitely echo the same experiences.

I have messed around with shaping with my rescues and failed miserably. As I have learned more and gotten better at working with each individual dog's capabilities, I'm more and more able to be successful shaping a dog who becomes easily frustrated/confused/anxious.

About two years ago I attempted some shaping with our rescue dane and you can see in the video he is literally shaking with stress and aprehension. Two years later (with much more knowledge and experience under my belt) I tried it again, with fabulous results. Its really a skill and it requires lots of practice, and yes, failures, to get it right. Then you move on to the next dog and start all over again LOL!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Shaping games- like the box game I think you're playing- are excellent for building dogs' 'confidence', for want of a better term. They help impulse control and relax a dog, making them more susceptible to training in the future. I also believe they learn to read us a lot better through shaping, and this in turn improves attention.
> 
> However, many dogs, particularly dogs who become aroused rapidly, do find these games frustrating. In my opinion, beginning with the box game for Roxy is way too quick too soon. When I am shaping a rescue dog to do a behaviour, I always start incredibly slow to begin with, e.g. just shaping eye contact, or maybe a hand target, or 'Go To Mat'. We can then move on to other behaviours, but anything more usually frustrates the dog, I agree.
> 
> However, that said, I do value shaping hugely and would urge you not to discard it (if you have) as it would be a great thing to build on to help Roxy's issues and general levels of excitement.


Obvuiously not really knowing either of my dogs backgrounds doesn't help but I do find it interesting the differecnes between them. Toby, although also recived little exercise, socialisation with other dogs or training is such an easy dog. His skills with the box always make me smile, he really does show off all his best moves & loves this task.

Roxy is great with hand targetting, go to mat, go left/right, etc & I am increasing these exercises with distractions whilst out on our walks. Getting Roxy to give us eye contact was probably the first thing we did with her as we realised after couple of days that she would not look at us at all. It took a while but she is easily able to 'watch me' when we are out .... unless there is another dog !!

Based on previous posts within this thread (which I have found really interesting despite maybe not agreeing with everything!!) we also pratictised 'leave it' for moving objects which was very successfull today.

We walked a route today where Roxy could swim alot which she loves. I threw the ball in to the river & told her to sit on the bank & 'leave' - she did. She was rewarded by chasing after her ball in the river but also recalled when I blew my whistle. She recalled from a couple of ducks & this time got her fave squeaky ball!!

Maybe I should retry the box again - I did say this in another thread but hadn't got round to it. I may try tomorrow to see if we have a different response. She has changed alot again in the past few weeks & I have to keep reminding myself of this.


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## Woah (Dec 24, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> I know people say that by having a negative interrupter (is that what I'm using?) then the dog doesn't learn anything about what I do want her to do - I disagree. by using the nioise it stops the unwanted behaviour which then means I get that cahnce to tell her what I want her to do; sit & watch me


THIS ^
Quite honestly all dogs are unique I think we can all agree. Some are SO intense in their behaviours and if you've never experienced handling an intense, driven , obsessive dog then you may not understand why aversive absolutely can and does work on these types.
NOT hitting, NOT screaming at or anything that actually hurts or terrifies a dog, but yes firm handling , direction, water squirrels, spray collars etc can absolutely work to resolve certain behaviors which simply do not resolve with tried and tested positives.
When another dog puts another dog in its place by growling for instance that's an aversive communication. Dogs know this, they normally cope with it, and learn from it. 
Positive methods are great no doubt about that and out of choice who wouldn't choose that way every time? (IF IT WORKS). BUT I use aversives and I think most people (if you really think about it) use them too one way or another.
Dog jumps up at worktops - you say In firm voice "off" and take a step towards your dog showing a confident body posture? That's an aversive isn't it?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Wow old thread, interesting to see my views then and how they've changed now  And gosh I miss some of these folks no longer posting!



Woah said:


> THIS ^
> Quite honestly all dogs are unique I think we can all agree. Some are SO intense in their behaviours and if you've never experienced handling an intense, driven , obsessive dog then you may not understand why aversive absolutely can and does work on these types.
> NOT hitting, NOT screaming at or anything that actually hurts or terrifies a dog, but yes firm handling , direction, water squirrels, spray collars etc can absolutely work to resolve certain behaviors which simply do not resolve with tried and tested positives.
> When another dog puts another dog in its place by growling for instance that's an aversive communication. Dogs know this, they normally cope with it, and learn from it.
> ...


Been watching Dogs Behaving Badly? 

But seriously though, are there any specific issues you're working on that prompted you to post this? Maybe members can help you brainstorm


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Been watching Dogs Behaving Badly?
> 
> But seriously though, are there any specific issues you're working on that prompted you to post this? Maybe members can help you brainstorm


:Hilarious Not me . I can't be arsed anymore


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious Not me . I can't be arsed anymore


Oh no! You give good advice! But I do get it, it's frustrating at times....


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Woah said:


> THIS ^
> Quite honestly all dogs are unique I think we can all agree. Some are SO intense in their behaviours and if you've never experienced handling an intense, driven , obsessive dog then you may not understand why aversive absolutely can and does work on these types.
> NOT hitting, NOT screaming at or anything that actually hurts or terrifies a dog, but yes firm handling , direction, water squirrels, spray collars etc can absolutely work to resolve certain behaviors which simply do not resolve with tried and tested positives.
> When another dog puts another dog in its place by growling for instance that's an aversive communication. Dogs know this, they normally cope with it, and learn from it.
> ...


Blimey this is an old thread .. I will have to read through my replies to see if I can disagree with myself!!

Regarding the intense, driven dogs I now have one …. a WL GSD & I can assure you that positive methods work wonderfully with him. I do have to be much more B&W & consistent with him though, because he is so driven. Tbh it has made me a MUCH better handler as I am so much more aware of my handling, my body language, etc.

Yes, there are lots of aversives & we use some of the milder ones at times without really thinking ... maybe we should more in some ways. Having said that I think on this thread I discussed using an aversive with Roxy (my older GSD) regarding her reactivity to other dogs & was only speaking about this yesterday. Maybe I could have done things differently but I had spent a lot of time (& money) working with a behaviourist (who then dropped us) so went to a dog trainer who suggested the stones. It worked well & I don't regret doing it at all but it was part of a training plan which was based mainly on R+


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> I will have to read through my replies to see if I can disagree with myself!!


It was a fun read! I disagreed with myself a few times, I think we were talking at cross purposes there for a while. But yes, fun read 

Anyway, @Woah I also meant to ask, what is a water squirrel? I think my dogs would have loved that! 

As to your question about stepping towards a dog with a confident body posture - well, some dogs would indeed find that intimidating and yes, aversive. However some dogs might not be fazed at all. Some dogs might take it as a challenge and rise to it. That last one is kind of hard to recover from...

These days I tend to ask not if something works or not, but is it effective. Lots of things work. But how effectively do they work for my long-term intentions with this dog. So like with your countertop example, sure, that works, but it requires you to be in the presence of the dog and aware that he/she is about to get something off the countertop right? 
I live in a busy household and I don't like having to constantly watch my dogs, so to that end, I prefer to teach a default leave-it. Up until recently we had dogs who had to lower their chins to rest them on the counter, so other than blocking off the kitchen entirely (hard to do in an open floor plan house), they had to learn that anything left on the counter top was off limits. So we taught a default leave-it for counter tops and the coffee table.

Interestingly one time a kid left a box of cookies or something on the bathroom counter top (don't ask, they're kids, who knows what their brains are doing). Anyway, a dog found it and helped himself. We hadn't proofed the default leave it to the bathroom counters and the same dog who will leave a full plate of food on the coffee table, had zero compunctions about helping himself to a box of cookies on the bathroom counter. The behavior nerd in me found that very interesting


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> It was a fun read! I disagreed with myself a few times, I think we were talking at cross purposes there for a while. But yes, fun read
> 
> Anyway, @Woah I also meant to ask, what is a water squirrel? I think my dogs would have loved that!
> 
> ...


Hahaha, definitely! Now re-reading this I do actually remember how I felt at the time. I had gone through a very difficult start with Roxy, so much more so than I could have imagined but was making progress at this point. Now I have a thicker skin & tbh couldn't careless what people told me but at this time (after spending so long working with Roxy on various issues & spending so many £££'s) it did really irk me when people suggested that only 'lazy' owners would use aversives (not just this thread btw) when it simply isn't true.
I definitely would have done a lot of things differently but the I have gained more experience, worked with a lot of different trainers, gained a lot more confidence in my ability, etc …. but I don't regret using the bottle of stones in that session as it worked exactly how I wanted.

Now I look at various techniques with training & how I can tweak things. How am I delivering the reinforcer, my timing, my dogs preferences, my dogs' level of arousal, etc which will all impact the outcome. And I am not so hung up on using punishment, obviously it's not something I use a lot (& when I do it is usually P-) but I will apply the same considerations & think about the outcome.

With Archer (my youngest GSD) it is soooooo much easier than with Roxy as he is so motivated by everything (which can come with it's onw problems at times!). I never had to work half as hard as I did with Roxy but if I hadn't of had Roxy I would never have Archer. I have learnt so much from all my dogs & will continue to do so which I love


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> With Archer (my youngest GSD) it is soooooo much easier than with Roxy as he is so motivated by everything (which can come with it's onw problems at times!). I never had to work half as hard as I did with Roxy but if I hadn't of had Roxy I would never have Archer. I have learnt so much from all my dogs & will continue to do so which I love


Aw... I love that - if it wasn't for Roxy you wouldn't have Archer :Happy So true how one dog seems to be put there for the purpose of preparing you for another...

And totally agree about it being easier with a lot of drive. I remember another thread where I was jumped on for saying that - that drive makes things a lot easier in many respects. But I still stand by that. Like you said, it has it's own set of problems, but I'll take a drivey dog any day over one who's difficult to motivate.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Aw... I love that - if it wasn't for Roxy you wouldn't have Archer :Happy So true how one dog seems to be put there for the purpose of preparing you for another...
> 
> And totally agree about it being easier with a lot of drive. I remember another thread where I was jumped on for saying that - that drive makes things a lot easier in many respects. But I still stand by that. Like you said, it has it's own set of problems, but I'll take a drivey dog any day over one who's difficult to motivate.


Yes, it's so funny how things work out. Finding my dog training club changed my life tbh … that' sounds so cheesy but it's so true. I learnt so much about myself (I still do) as it was so different from any training I had experienced previously. Watching the dogs at the club was awesome, I had never really seen anything like it. The relationship between the dogs & handlers (most of them, not all!) was so amazing to see, the attentiveness, the motivation to train, the fun, etc I instantly loved it.

Roxy has been the most amazing dog to learn from although I was so stressed when I got her, I can't believe how badly I was affected by it all, the embarrassment I had, the worry I would mess up & she would hurt someone, so now when I see that 'look' that other owners have I completely understand & can empathise with the struggles!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I've loved reading through this thread again and taking note of how I've changed over time. What works with my dog reactive GSD? Nowadays a firm 'NO' at the right moment. Would this have worked when he was younger and before other methods had been used, before we knew each other so well, before we'd built a mutual trust which can take years and is a continuing process that lasts forever? No it wouldn't. On its own it would have been a complete waste of time. The right answer is completely individual and changes over time. There's no one size fits all forever.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Anyone else curious as to why @Woah revived an 8 year old thread to then ignore any responses?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Maybe the medication wore off.


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## Woah (Dec 24, 2018)

Ha ha because I’m not good with technology? God knows why this thread even came up on the list as a seemingly recent one. I wasn’t trying to revive I was just responding to what I thought was a recent one!!!! What medication? oh and a water squirrel meant to say water squirter which I had to use on Zak to stop his silliness around the cat which worked a treat after just two squirts and ever since he’s a good boy around her. Sorry everyone I didn’t mean to start up an old thread I just don’t know what I’m doing on my iPad most of the time


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