# Destructive puppy at night-where am I going wrong?



## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

Hello,

I am having some troubles with my puppy at night. I know it is down to something that I am doing but I don't know what it is or how to correct it. I have a 4.5 month old Lab cross. When we go to bed at night, she is confined downstairs from 10-10.30 until 8-8.30 in the morning. She originally started in the carpeted hallway when she was 8 weeks but made too much noise and kept my daughter awake so she was moved to our hard floor lounge and fenced into a corner with her crate, paper for toiletries and some toys/chews. Things started out okay, there were inevitably some poops and pees to pick up as she was only young but it all worked out okay. Then about a month ago, she started going through a destructive phase. She was shredding her paper into ribbons and dragging it into her bed even when it was wet with wee, she was chewing at the side of our sofa despite me putting her food box in front of it; she would deliberately push that box out of the way to continue chewing the one sofa (she was fenced in between the two sofas but yet she only ever attacked one corner of one sofa) and would wee and poop everywhere and tread in as she was too young to shut her crate overnight.
We made the space smaller to try and discourage her from roaming around too much but it didn't matter what we did, she would carry on and as she started ruining the floor and sofa we put her out in our conservatory. We purchased a new big bed for her and filled it with cushions and my dressing gown that smells of me, there is nothing in the conservatory that she can chew save a small piece of old carpet I use to walk to the dryer. The floor is chipping up which she does dog at but that's not a problem for us as it's an old room and we intend to chip the floor up ourselves next spring. For the first four nights she was dry as a bone she didn't do any pees or poops at all, though inevitably we thought we were onto a winner with that one. Then over the last week she has progressively got worse, this morning was an exceptional low she had completely shredded all of the paper and pooped all over the floor without any effort to even get on the paper, she had obviously been walking around and she had stepped in her poo and walked across the floor, she has started shredding the carpet and pulling it apart and digging up the floor.
I feed her at 8:30 AM and again at 5:30 PM and I take a water up from her around 9 PM. She is let out last thing before we go to bed and first thing in the morning and she is walked twice a day for an hour each time, which is a mixture of work on the lead and also running free playing fetch and sniffing around. She has plenty of toys to occupy overnight she has a couple of teddies and squeaky toys and some deer antler and rawhide to chew.
I know it is something that I am doing wrong which is obviously causing her to do this during the evening and I would just like to be able to solve it because she's making such a mess in our house. I am fully aware that puppies are destructive to a degree for exploration and also arent the cleanest of creatures but she does seem exceptionally messy  some nights she doesn't poop at all and other nights she can do 4 standard size poops but her feeding schedule doesn't xhange at all and she doesn't have many treats/snacks during the day. Just a few out on walks for training.
She is fully house trained otherwise, we very rarely have an accident in the house any more and if we do, it's normally because we've missed her asking to go out. It's just the night time that is a problem. I'm guessing it's probably separation anxiety/boredom on her part as if I go out somewhere in the day I normally go out for no longer than three hours and she never goes to the toilet then providing I let her out before we leave. Would love to be able to let her come upstairs with us in sleep at the foot of our bed but until I can trust her to not be destructive and also to be dry at night, I don't want to open up another room in my house to being pooped and peed in 
I know it's something I'm doing wrong, I'm basing my training on the last dog I had which was nearly 15 years ago. He was a Yorkshire terrier so completely different breed and training requirements but he was put in the kitchen and the floor covered in paper. He was left in there until the morning and at about 3-4 months he was dry overnight and start sleeping in my room with me, that was the training I did whilst I was living with my mum as I was only 13 at the time so I've probably got all completely wrong. I am hoping some of your experts can give me some advice on what's the best course of action


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

4 poops overnight is alot are you sure she isnt being over fed?

As for the statement she was too young to be shut in the crate, mine has been crated from 7 weeks old and we never had a problem. It might be worth going back to crate training to keep her safe from eating anything in the house. Only put a comfy bed in there for her no paper ect, the crate should only be big enough for her to sleep in anyways.


You have caused the toileting issues by putting the paper down. You told her it was ok to go inside and now she does. Take the paper away at night and start getting up at set intervals to let her out instead. If you get up and there are poops already adjust the time to be early to catch her before she goes. 

How much exercise is she getting per day? 

You need to make sure you wear her out before bed so she is tired enough to just want to sleep. This may mean you need to prevent her from napping during the evening so she is more tired when you go to bed.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Hi,

Firstly, two hours a day is far to much exercise for a puppy of just over 4 months. Assuming you got her at 8 weeks and started actually walking her at 11 ish weeks, you've essentially gone from giving the puppy no exercise at 11 weeks to over 2 hours a day another couple of months down the line. She's a developing baby that does not have the physical endurance or stamina to cope with that yet. 

As you would when starting up an exercise regime yourself, you do so GRADUALLY in small increments otherwise you risk injury. This is particularly important with the Lab side of her, as presumably you are not aware of her genetic background and the state of her Lab relatives hips and elbows. I would be taking her on a couple of 20-25 minute walks per day at this stage.

Physical risk aside, you also are in danger of overstimulating her. The more exercise and stimulation you give a dog, the more they become accustomed to and the more they demand.

10 hours is a BIG ask of a young dog to remain quiet and also hold it's business in. I wouldn't even expect my adult dogs to have to hold on for 10 hours never mind a puppy. I considered it all small victory if my puppies did 6 hours of quiet sleep overnight so I honestly think you are expecting too much. Try going to bed later and getting up earlier and see what happens. Also, don't ever withhold water - it can make them guzzle more if they realize they aren't going to have access to it for over 10 hours.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I also think you're expecting too much, sorry. I don't expect my adult dog to go 10 hours never mind a puppy. I'd try getting up during the night to take her out to toilet and either going to bed later or getting up earlier. Both for the toileting and the destruction. She's probably bored left that long.

Agree with labradrk about the water and exercise.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I've raised a number of puppies over the years, but this time was the first time I used a crate for sleeping in overnight and when we go out.
She was introduced to the crate on the day we bought her home, tempting her in with food, feeding her in there, hiding the food in the bedding for her to seek and find, anything to get her to go in and feel happy in there.
The first night she cried for a while, then slept and was clean and dry in the morning. The next night she cried a little bit and was clean and dry the following morning. She never toileted in the crate. Within a few weeks she was totally housetrained and had only an occasional accident during the day which was my fault as I didn't pay attention.

So, why don't you use the crate for your pup? It's going to make life a lot easier. 
Why do you think she is too young for a crate?
Also agree that two hourly walks a day is too much for your pup. Free running for a longer period is not so bad. I always reckoned that when Isla started the zoomies it was time to go back. At your pups age, my pup had two walks a day. The first was ten minutes or so on lead up and down the road, the second was free running, mainly, in fields for about 20 to 30 minutes.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Reading through your post there could be a few things that's causing problems and confusion possibly.

At 4.5 months she should still be on three maybe even 4 meals still a day, not two meals at 8.30am and 5.30pm its a long time to go between meals for a puppy who is still going through the quickest phase of growing. At the same time their systems are still limited as to quantity in relation to food transit time and amounts. If you are trying to cram in the daily food allowance in two big meals then its likely too much for her system to cope with in one go. Also its possible you may be over feeding her, quantities on the commercial food guide lines are often too much they are only a guide, its best to go by regular weight checks to make sure they are gaining a nice steady weekly amount and go by eye too as regards body condition. It could also be what you are feeding her. Some foods are full of bulkers and fillers which don't have a lot of nutritional value. With these you often need to feed more in quantity, to get the same needed nutritional value and calories then you would another highly nutritional more digestible food too. The Bulkers and fillers increase the waste produce ie poo, and as your feeding more to get the nutritional value needed that leads to greater waste.

First thing I would therefore do it look at what food shes on, if it isn't a good one, then change it too a more nutritious natural food without bulkers and fillers that higher nutritional value and easily digestible. If you do though you will need to change over a week, by adding a little more of the new and a little less of the old on a daily basis, as sudden abrupt changes of food can cause an upset tum.
I would also feed here 3/4 meals instead, more meals but smaller quantities, with the daily total amount fed in these 4 equal meals, and more evenly spaced apart, with the last meal later then 5.30. 
If puppies are hungry they will often cry and not settle and sleep too sometimes. I would also not withhold water, its something you shouldn't do, although naturally they don't drink more in the night when they are less active and sleeping water should be available 24/7 if they should be thirsty and need to drink. If they are on dry they usually need to drink more then on wet food anyway.

Personally I would also ditch the paper, it can confuse them especially if they have been used to toileting on paper at the breeders and you started with paper. On one hand you are taking her out in the day trying to teach her that outside is the right and correct place, then you are still at the same time having paper down, giving the message that inside is also OK and an acceptable place to do it.

The conservatory may be the problem too, its would be very cold with the dropping temperatures at night unless you have it well heated at night? There is also a chance that there may be things disturbing her like possibly foxes and other things going on, it could also be stressing her out, if they are anxious or stressed they can tend to start to destroy.

With all mine I have them within sight and sound of me as pups, so that when they wake or stir in the night when they still cant go right through, then I pop them out to toilet. No bright lights no interaction or talking, just out, cue word when they start, couple of words of quiet praise when finished, and a treat and back to bed so they are not stimulated wide awake.

You say that you would ideally love to have her upstairs with you. You actually can now, if you crate train her and have her in the crate in your bedroom. That way if it is stress at being alone in the night, or needing to toilet that wakes her, when and if she does wake or stir you can then pop her out to toilet. If she hasn't already been crate trained, then you will need to go back to basics, you cant just put them in and shut the door usually. As long as you work on self amusement and alone times as part of her routine in the day, at the same time as having them sleep near you, then you don't usually have a problem with them being left or when you go out.

The only other comment I would make is the two hours a day exercise at this age, it could in fact be too long, over exercising can cause problems with forming hips and still growing bones if you over do it. Its often better when they are young to in place of huge great walks, do some training sessions teaching the basic commands and then adding them. Maybe also mixing it with a bit of play like retrieving, often training as they are having to mentally concentrate mixed with a bit of play, often wears them out more then just walking too.


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

Thank you to everybody for taking the time to reply there's a lot of questions and information so I try and respond to everybody and answer 
She was being fed 250g of Wainwrights a day, although she was starting to look a little too slim so I'd upped it to by 300g. I regularly check her size and shape and also check it with my vet and she is a good size without being too skinny, so I don't think I'm overfeeding her too much but I'm not an expert of course?
What I meant by she was too young to be shut in the crate is that I couldn't leave her in there all night. I don't have the facility to keep her in my bedroom with me all night in a crate as its a tiny room with no extra space, so I have to have the alternative of having her in a room with a bed which is why I gave her to conservatory so she had a bit more room.
I go out twice a day with her, I'm not sure exactly how far we go because I am walking home with a two year old daughter so it's kind of slow progress  it's a mixture of walking on the lead and free running, but if I walked it on my own it would probably take me about 30 minutes the route that I take. It's just a quiet lap around the neighbourhood where I take her. I do try to vary it by also taking her to the beach and taking her to the local coppice for her to run around, she does go out for longer with my husband in the evening again they are normally walking for about 30 to 45 minutes and they probably walk a couple of miles along the beach and back on the sand. He is always pooped when they come back and by the time they get in from the walk it's normally 9-9:30 PM so she should be tired for the rest of the night?
I started walking her a week after her second set of injections at 11 weeks and I have gradually increased the exercise since that day, I didn't just go full throttle, I should have explained that a little better  What I can do is switch on a mile counter to see how far I am actually going with her because although I'm out for an hour it's not an hour of solid walking if that makes sense?
again I think I have written it incorrectly, I certainly don't expect her to be going through the night without pees or poops, my only concern was that it seemed quite excessive and she was being quite destructive probably due to being away from us for so long.
In regards to taking up her water, I've read a lot on other forums and also Labrador sites, that I should take up her water whilst she is learning to be dry overnight as most dogs who sleep in their owners rooms don't come down during the night to take water anyway, so apologies on that front I've read the wrong information so I will keep her water with her.
In regards to her meals, I was told by my vet to bring her down to 3 meals when she was three months, despite my best efforts to eat 3 times a day, she regularly would not eat her lunch time allowance so discussing it with my vet, they recommended I took her down to 2 a day and explained some dogs are ready to go down to 2 feeds before six months?
For Siskin with Isla, I cant tell from your comment whether you are saying about you shut your dog in a crate all night without taking her to the toilet or not? 
In regards to putting paper down and putting her in our conservatory, unfortunately, I fully appreciate this isn't ideal however I don't have any other options as to where to keep her?
I don't have the room for a crate in my room, so until she is dry at night, she will have to stay out in the conservatory  I just didn't know if there's anything else I could do that would help keep her occupied or stimulated whilst we were in bed?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Could you not put the crate into the conservatory and use it at night?
Then set your alarm to go off at a certain time during the night and let her out?

Wainwrights is a good food, but I'm wondering if she has a grain intolerance which is why she needs to poo so much. Isla goes about twice a day, maybe a third,but not often. She is fed Arden Grange.

Isla sleeps downstairs, not in the crate anymore, I stopped using it when she was about ten months. I didn't have her up in my bedroom at all, don't think the crate would have fitted anyway. She woke up during the first two nights to toilet, but after that, slept through from about 10.30 to 7.00. Nowadays it's difficult to get her to go out and have a wee in the morning as she now prefers to wait until we go out for a walk first thing. Must admit she does seem to have good bladder control which came as something as a shock after being used to elderly dogs with age related bladder weaknesses for the last four years.
Unfortunately labradors are renowned chewers as puppies as my SIL can testify. Anyway to reduce that is good and crates are very useful in that respect.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

Is there room outside your bedroom for the crate? If she can hear and smell you she is likely to be more settled. I used to start my puppies off in my bed, so that I would wake up when they stirred, took them outside to toilet, back to bed in less than 2 minutes.

The taking up of water seem to be a common suggestion on American websites. Personally I never do it and don't have a pee problem. If the dogs are happy and relaxed they sleep, if they were anxious or distressed, they probably would drink in the night. I don't normally not let my dogs go for more 7 hours without the opportunity to relieve themselves at night. With new puppies I found it would be couple of times in the night in the beginning, dropping to once about a week later as the pup settled in. Can't remember when we actually stopped the night time garden visit....the youngest is now 10 1/2 years old...

Good luck.


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

Siskin said:


> Could you not put the crate into the conservatory and use it at night?
> Then set your alarm to go off at a certain time during the night and let her out?
> 
> Wainwrights is a good food, but I'm wondering if she has a grain intolerance which is why she needs to poo so much. Isla goes about twice a day, maybe a third,but not often. She is fed Arden Grange.
> ...


Hi 
I think reading through all the posts and yours it would be a good idea to create her once again, however I would need to invest in a larger crate. She is currently in a medium one I bought second hand from a friend and at her size now she can only just stretchout in it so she wouldn't have enough room for me to put her water in there with her? I could put her in her crate at 10:30 PM at night when we go to bed and then set an alarm to come down again at 12 AM to let her out to the toilet with no fuss and then put her away again? I would then come down in the morning about 7:30 AM to let her out do you think at 4 1/2 months she would be able to deal with this?
Really don't want to have to encourage the crate being brought upstairs because I think now after having had her since eight weeks old (she is 20 weeks old on Sunday) and following the routine of putting her downstairs whilst we are upstairs, may unsettle her more? When we go to bed at night I can hear her playing around for about 30 minutes after we go to bed; I can hear her playfully growling with her toys and then she goes quiet and I don't hear again for the rest of the night, so I don't know if that is when she is doing all of her destructive behaviour or whether she does it throughout the night as I don't hear her again? She doesn't seem too upset at being left alone even when she was eight weeks old she only whined the first night for 20 minutes and since then has been good as gold for being left on her own.
I have struggled with her food slightly, I tried to do as much research as possible but I am a complete novice when it comes to dry food and have had lots of different things recommended by lots of different people? When we first bought her she was on food called fiscal futures which is what her breeder sent me home with but there was not a local stockist and we would have had to drive 45 minutes to get more so we moved her to James Wellbeloved. She didn't seem overly fussed on this food and it was very difficult to get her to eat it. I tried warming it and soaking it but nothing worked. She also had really bad gas so I went and spoke to the person at pets at home and they recommended Wainwrights food. She does enjoy this food and eats it with gusto but still I have noticed she does have gas now and again and her poops can range from being firm to runny (although this could be down to her eating and chewing everything in sight in the garden 😊).


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

If you are going to crate her with her water - this kind of bowl might be ideal for the crate - difficult to topple over and make a mess by drinking. I wouldn't be without mine.

Road Refresher Travel Bowl Large Grey Online | Free UK Delivery | Buyallmeans.co.uk

Available from most pets hops.


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

bogdog said:


> Is there room outside your bedroom for the crate? If she can hear and smell you she is likely to be more settled. I used to start my puppies off in my bed, so that I would wake up when they stirred, took them outside to toilet, back to bed in less than 2 minutes.
> 
> The taking up of water seem to be a common suggestion on American websites. Personally I never do it and don't have a pee problem. If the dogs are happy and relaxed they sleep, if they were anxious or distressed, they probably would drink in the night. I don't normally not let my dogs go for more 7 hours without the opportunity to relieve themselves at night. With new puppies I found it would be couple of times in the night in the beginning, dropping to once about a week later as the pup settled in. Can't remember when we actually stopped the night time garden visit....the youngest is now 10 1/2 years old...
> 
> Good luck.


Hi, thanks for your help.

We don't really have a lot of room in the upstairs of our house we only have a narrow hallway and she would end up waking my daughter (she is quite a noisy dog and we have thin walls). 
However as I have posted above, I think I will go back to crating her; putting her down at 10:30 PM, letting her out again at 12 AM to go to the toilet one last time and then coming down at 7:30 AM to let her out straight away and then as a reward she can come upstairs with us for a snuggle before we all get up at 8AM?

I did think that taking her water away sounded mean but I saw it recommended so many times I thought maybe I should do it? I will definitely go back to putting her water down at night so she has access to it as I don't want her to feel upset in her own home. Also if I crate her, it enables me to bring her back into our living room where it's warmer and more familiar for her?
I don't like putting her out in our conservatory as I do feel mean but I was at my wits end as she had terribly chewed my sofa and was peeing on my floor and damaging the floor in the living room and it was starting to smell, we tried putting her in our kitchen and she chewed up half of our lino on the floor and chewed straight through the telephone wire which cost us a fortune to repair so I really don't want to risk putting her in any other room in the house until she has lost the need to be destructive😔 I have provided her with a variety of chewing toys and also rawhide chews, deer antler etc. but she seems to just prefer to chew things that she shouldn't as dogs do 😊. I don't have any other room in the house, I can give her for her own in case she continues to destroy so she left me with no choice unfortunately. I wish I could allow her to go out in the garden overnight at her own free will with a dog flap but unfortunately that isn't an option at present 
Thank you for your advice, have been some really good tips on here that I'm going to try as this is the anything we need to crack 😊 xx


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

bogdog said:


> If you are going to crate her with her water - this kind of bowl might be ideal for the crate - difficult to topple over and make a mess by drinking. I wouldn't be without mine.
> 
> Road Refresher Travel Bowl Large Grey Online | Free UK Delivery | Buyallmeans.co.uk
> 
> Available from most pets hops.


Hi, thank you that is a great idea. I did wonder whether I could find something that would attach to the side of the crate as opposed to on the floor she is somewhat of a messy job she likes to dig up her bed and turn it over so a normal bowl of water wouldn't stand a chance 😊.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Those travel bowls work well and we have used it in the motorhome whilst travelling. There is a bit of Velcro to stick it to a surface, like the carpet, to stop it moving about.
I suspect a bigger crate is going to help and putting it in your lounge will be fine. She may even go and choose to sleep in it as well during the evening. Make the crate a nice cosy place to be, perhaps drape something over one end so it's like a den. Once she's rearranged her bed to how she likes it, she will probably settle.
Whenever I leave Isla, whether we are going out or it's bedtime, I give her a couple of biscuits to settle her down. These days I tell her to go to her bed (she does it automatically now) and lie down, then she gets the biscuits. It makes a routine which dogs like and they know what's coming next. 
I think your timetable will do the trick, no point getting up again after midnight given her age, she should be able to last through until the morning. You will probably find you will be able to drop the midnight pee break without much of a problem and crating will save the nighttime destruction habit.

Good luck and let us know how you get in.


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

You need to reintroduce the crate to her, do not shut her in there one night and expect her to be fine. She will bark the house down. Start feeding all her meals in there, all yummy treats from there. You can play crate games [there are some on youtube] and encourage her to sleep in there during the day with the door open. You can slowly build to her being in there with the door shut and then overnight. All she should be able to do is sleep in the crate, there is no need for it to be huge otherwise she may use a corner of it as a toilet.

i wouldn't want to be leaving her that long to start with while she gets into the routine of not going inside. This means you need to be getting up and letting her out another time during the night on top of the two times you have mentioned. Get the paper off the floor too and give it a good clean with a bio washing powder or a odour removing spary [do not use bleach] because the more she toilets inside the harder it will be to housebreak as she will think there is no need to hold her bladder.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Morgiez17 said:


> However as I have posted above, I think I will go back to crating her; putting her down at 10:30 PM, letting her out again at 12 AM to go to the toilet one last time and then coming down at 7:30 AM to let her out straight away and then as a reward she can come upstairs with us for a snuggle before we all get up at 8AM?


I don't have anything to add to what has been said by others. But I see no issue with your new timetable. I brought my puppy home at just under 4 months and our timetable was similar to yours. At that point I would still take Axel out for 2 longer walks and a few pee breaks in between (went out every 3 hours). Our last pee break was at 12-12.30am and then he would sleep in his crate until 6.30-7am. We increased this time gradually with every week and when he was 5 months we had the luxury of sleeping in until 8-8.30am. We still went out at 12am before sleep, but that was more to do with our life style so we still do it.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

At her age she'll be teething like mad so will need something to chew (hence the chewing at your sofa). Give both hard and soft objects - I find fleece tuggies are good for the soft (or other tightly plaited fabric), and my pups like to chew cans for the hard. I feed Rocco from 800g cans mixed with dry food, and the empty cans are an ideal size for my collie pups. 

It was at about 4 1/2 months I stopped getting up at 3.30 each night to take them out for a pee, and gradually lengthened it until now (a month later) they can hold on all night. My 2 sleep in crates in the kitchen and settle well at night, though I don't need an alarm clock to wake me up in the morning!


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Please don't leave her with access to chews and toys at night while she's unattended unless they're tried and tested (eg kongs). It's a choking and/or foreign body risk if she eats them. I've unfortunately seen dogs eat toys (requiring surgical removal!) and choke on chews as well when they've been given unsupervised. That being said, they need to be taught to settle. Bed time up should be sleep time, not let's play with our toys time!

In terms of timing, if she goes to bed at 10pm and you get up at 8am, get up halfway between, so 3am. If she's already toileted you will need to start getting up earlier to let her out. You can gradually make toilet time later as she grows and develops more control. 

Also, whatever you decide to do, make sure you're consistent. She's had a lot of changes to her night time routine already in the 3 months you've had her. Once she's learnt a routine, you're already halfway there.


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

Siskin said:


> Those travel bowls work well and we have used it in the motorhome whilst travelling. There is a bit of Velcro to stick it to a surface, like the carpet, to stop it moving about.
> I suspect a bigger crate is going to help and putting it in your lounge will be fine. She may even go and choose to sleep in it as well during the evening. Make the crate a nice cosy place to be, perhaps drape something over one end so it's like a den. Once she's rearranged her bed to how she likes it, she will probably settle.
> Whenever I leave Isla, whether we are going out or it's bedtime, I give her a couple of biscuits to settle her down. These days I tell her to go to her bed (she does it automatically now) and lie down, then she gets the biscuits. It makes a routine which dogs like and they know what's coming next.
> I think your timetable will do the trick, no point getting up again after midnight given her age, she should be able to last through until the morning. You will probably find you will be able to drop the midnight pee break without much of a problem and crating will save the nighttime destruction habit.
> ...


I am in luck! There is somebody selling a large crate local to me so I don't have to fork out full price for one. Unfortunately, I cannot collect until the weekend so we have a couple more nights of messy conservatory and then I will introduce a new routine to her at the weekend. Will definitely look at getting her the nonslip bowl to go in her crate as well 😊
Will keep you posted and thanks for all your help x


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

Amelia66 said:


> You need to reintroduce the crate to her, do not shut her in there one night and expect her to be fine. She will bark the house down. Start feeding all her meals in there, all yummy treats from there. You can play crate games [there are some on youtube] and encourage her to sleep in there during the day with the door open. You can slowly build to her being in there with the door shut and then overnight. All she should be able to do is sleep in the crate, there is no need for it to be huge otherwise she may use a corner of it as a toilet.
> 
> i wouldn't want to be leaving her that long to start with while she gets into the routine of not going inside. This means you need to be getting up and letting her out another time during the night on top of the two times you have mentioned. Get the paper off the floor too and give it a good clean with a bio washing powder or a odour removing spary [do not use bleach] because the more she toilets inside the harder it will be to housebreak as she will think there is no need to hold her bladder.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

shadowmare said:


> I don't have anything to add to what has been said by others. But I see no issue with your new timetable. I brought my puppy home at just under 4 months and our timetable was similar to yours. At that point I would still take Axel out for 2 longer walks and a few pee breaks in between (went out every 3 hours). Our last pee break was at 12-12.30am and then he would sleep in his crate until 6.30-7am. We increased this time gradually with every week and when he was 5 months we had the luxury of sleeping in until 8-8.30am. We still went out at 12am before sleep, but that was more to do with our life style so we still do it.


I am happy to come back down before we go to bed to sleep to let her out and I have a 2 year old who is up at 8am so she won't ever be left longer than she should (I no longer have the luxury of a lie in 😊). Thanks for your advice x


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Morgiez17 said:


> I am in luck! There is somebody selling a large crate local to me so I don't have to fork out full price for one. Unfortunately, I cannot collect until the weekend so we have a couple more nights of messy conservatory and then I will introduce a new routine to her at the weekend. Will definitely look at getting her the nonslip bowl to go in her crate as well &#55357;&#56842;
> Will keep you posted and thanks for all your help x


You can get special water bowls for the crate that clip on the side, which you locate at a height the dog can stand and drink comfortably so its not on the floor and can get knocked over, I got my last one in pets at home, although a lot of good pet shops often stock them too. To show you what they are like only see link. You can get various sizes and slightly different fixings.

Amazon.co.uk: dog crate water bowl


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

Burrowzig said:


> At her age she'll be teething like mad so will need something to chew (hence the chewing at your sofa). Give both hard and soft objects - I find fleece tuggies are good for the soft (or other tightly plaited fabric), and my pups like to chew cans for the hard. I feed Rocco from 800g cans mixed with dry food, and the empty cans are an ideal size for my collie pups.
> 
> It was at about 4 1/2 months I stopped getting up at 3.30 each night to take them out for a pee, and gradually lengthened it until now (a month later) they can hold on all night. My 2 sleep in crates in the kitchen and settle well at night, though I don't need an alarm clock to wake me up in the morning!


Yes she is definitely teething! 😊 she has lost all the front teeth and her bigger teeth are all through as well. I do provide her with things to chew but she definitely prefers the sofa!! She is incredibly destructive, I have on piggy her the thick plaited ropes and she uses her front teeth to pull threads out and destroy it 😖 not quite aure what is best and safe to leave her with? x


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

Little P said:


> Please don't leave her with access to chews and toys at night while she's unattended unless they're tried and tested (eg kongs). It's a choking and/or foreign body risk if she eats them. I've unfortunately seen dogs eat toys (requiring surgical removal!) and choke on chews as well when they've been given unsupervised. That being said, they need to be taught to settle. Bed time up should be sleep time, not let's play with our toys time!
> 
> In terms of timing, if she goes to bed at 10pm and you get up at 8am, get up halfway between, so 3am. If she's already toileted you will need to start getting up earlier to let her out. You can gradually make toilet time later as she grows and develops more control.
> 
> Also, whatever you decide to do, make sure you're consistent. She's had a lot of changes to her night time routine already in the 3 months you've had her. Once she's learnt a routine, you're already halfway there.


That's a great point, I do currently leave her with toys (a large teddy, deer antler, rope toy) to keep her amused when she is on her own but I suppose that does encourage her to be active and not sleep. I will take them away when I start to crate her again.
She will go to bed at 10pm but I will take her for toilet time at 12am and then again at 7am. She is below our bedroom so if she struggles to go that long, I will hear x


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Morgiez17 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am having some troubles with my puppy at night. I know it is down to something that I am doing but I don't know what it is or how to correct it. I have a 4.5 month old Lab cross. When we go to bed at night, she is confined downstairs from 10-10.30 until 8-8.30 in the morning.
> 
> ...


I would try a crate in your room so that she can tell you when she needs toileting and then gradually move it away from your bed to the landing and then downstairs.


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

Sled dog hotel said:


> You can get special water bowls for the crate that clip on the side, which you locate at a height the dog can stand and drink comfortably so its not on the floor and can get knocked over, I got my last one in pets at home, although a lot of good pet shops often stock them too. To show you what they are like only see link. You can get various sizes and slightly different fixings.
> 
> Amazon.co.uk: dog crate water bowl


Funnily enough, I was just looking at these to buy  thought it was good as some bolt on which will be good for her. She was a bit of a cart horse in her last crate! She liked to dig the bed up and would probably test the the non spill bowl to its limits; in fact I am sure she would make it her goal of the night


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> I would try a crate in your room so that she can tell you when she needs toileting and then gradually move it away from your bed to the landing and then downstairs.


Hi, thanks for your response 

I have no room in our bedroom for her to be in a crate and woukd not want to bring her upstairs now as I feel it would be going backwards.
In response to your points in bold..
1. I know that the 10 hours is too long, I was more concerned about the level of destruction/amount of waste she was producing which I now understand is down to a mixture of her boredom, too much freedom and separation anxiety. I am also looking to change her food to a grain free one; currently deliberating between Arden grange and burns; any recommendations?
2. I understand paper teaches them incorrectly, however it was the only option I had at the time. She always knows and asks to go out during the day, the paper was for the nighttime to help keep it contained (bit old fashioned I gather, I last did this 15 years ago for my extremely senior little Yorkie  )
3. I do provide her plenty to chew; rawhide, deer antler, chew toys, squeaky toys, Kongs... she preferred the end of my couch unfortunately despite my best efforts. Also, some people have said keeping yours with them when they aren't supervised is dangerous for choking and indeed a lot of toys come with this warning?
4. My statement regarding being too young to crate, what I meant was (and didn't write thoroughly), was that she was too young to be crated overnight without being let out.
5. She also has had no accidents in the house or crate since we bought her home at 8 weeks, I allowed her to toilet on paper, not because it was necessarily the right this to do but because it was the only option I thought I had at the time?
6. I had read many articles and advices to say there was no need for a puppy to have water overnight and indeed my old yorkie would sleep in my room from 10-9 and not get up to toilet or go for a drink. I now know this is wrong and have corrected this ( a lot of points you have raised have been clarified in the original post and in subsequent posts.
7. As I clarified, she isn't walked for exactly an hour. I am out walking with my 2 year old so process is slow and I am out for an hour with both of them and we probably walk only 30 mins worth. She is a very active dog and any less exercise makes her too much of a handful energy wise 
I have decided to crate her from 10.30, letting her out at 12am and then 7am with access to water and something fairly stable to chew on such as her deer antler, she has been working on that one for a while and it still shows no signs of being chewed


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

The problem with clip on or screw on water bowls is, the dog can dislodge quite easily, spilling the content. One of mine does it regularly in the car when he is rearranging his bedding. His water bowl is the screw to the side of the crate type. The clip on types I used previously came off including the holder. So if she is restless or active in the night the road refresher might be a steadier option.


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

bogdog said:


> The problem with clip on or screw on water bowls is, the dog can dislodge quite easily, spilling the content. One of mine does it regularly in the car when he is rearranging his bedding. His water bowl is the screw to the side of the crate type. The clip on types I used previously came off including the holder. So if she is restless or active in the night the road refresher might be a steadier option.


Ah ok thank you. I wasn't sure which would be better with her because she likes to dig up her bed and make herself comfortable


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Morgiez17 said:


> Yes, she is definitely teething!... lost all [her incisors] & her bigger teeth are all through as well.
> I do provide her with things to chew but she... prefers the sofa [&] is incredibly destructive,
> I [bought] thick plaited ropes and she uses her front teeth to pull threads out and destroy [them].
> 
> not quite sure what is best and safe to leave her with? x


Some safe items:
- 100% solid rubber, such as teething or toss-rings, Kongs, rubber bone-shapes, etc.
They are dishwasher-safe in the top rack; wash them BEFORE giving them to her, as they powder them with
a dirt-repelling & anti-stick powder so they don't adhere to one another during manufacture / in shipping,
& the stuff tastes Godawful. [Don't ask. ]

- Solid NYLON: Nylabone bones & other shapes, again, top-rack safe, wash before use.

NOT safe: Nylabone 'flexible' items, often transparent yellow-brown, & 2-part teethers of nylon [white] with
colored inserts [green, blue, etc]. The transparent ones get chewed into chunks & swallowed by strong chewers;
the colored inserts in solid-white nylon can be torn out entirely or in bits, & again swallowed.

Either solid-rubber or solid-nylon aren't super noisy, & can be left with her at night.

- Sterilized commercially-prepared large bones are also "safe", but at night, they'd bang against the floor
& the crate sides; very noisy. Good for daytimes, especially as U can stuff things in 'em: carrot spears,
broccoli stems, & similar veg-sticks; lickable stuffings, such as moistened, mixed, stuffed & frozen
kibble with other novelty items added [grated low-fat Mozz, grated carrot or zucchini, a Tbsp of peanut
or sunflower-seed butter, ricotta or cottage cheese...]

- Other generally safe things:
sterilized deer-antler from NON-USA, NON-China sources [NZ]
sterilized cow hooves
dried bull penises [some brands are stinky!]

Kongs are not really for 'chewing' so much as a food-dispenser; stuff & freeze, stuff
& "weld" [add 1/4 volume grated cheese to the stuffing, mix in, STUFF, give the Kong 20-secs in a 1K watt
microwave, *let cool* before giving it to the dog, as microwaves make hot-spots & sensitive tongues
gums, palate, etc, can be BURNED.

Stuffed-Kongs make great pacifiers, & a frozen stuffed Kong at 3-AM after pottying might be perfect
for breaking up her long, long, lo-o-o-o-ong night. 
Subtract the amount given in the Kong from her daily rations; U don't want a pudgy pup, Labs should be a bit
lean while growing so they don't overstress their joints with early wt-gain & overload them.

A *waist* should be seen from above, & a *tuck-up* behind her ribs should also be visible -
where her belly line becomes her groin; it shouldn't be a FLAT _ LINE to where her legs cut-off
the visible underline, from the side at the dog's level [she's on a table, or U kneel & bend over].
Her ribs should be easily palpable, but only the last 2 ribs should be slightly seen under her coat.
Her vertebrae should never make dragon-bumps down her back, but neither should they be plastered
in a fat-blanket that, in the worst cases, looks like a quilt with obvious edges on the butt.

Lean pups don't put excess wear & tear on developing elbows, hips, knees & shoulders.

I'm going to disagree with the folks who said she's getting "too much exercise" - sorry. 
Pups who are feeling pushed or bullied will let U know - whimper & lag on the leash, lie down when free,
& so on. If she's happily active & not dragging, not sitting or lying as soon as U stand still - she's fine. :laugh:
Total exercise, spread thru the day with breaks, can be quite a lot, & varies from pup to pup & family to
family; "how much" is often more a function of how much TIME the family has, than how much NEED
the pup has - so as long as the pup is eagerly going along, it's fine.

Tired puppies don't make a secret of it. 
.
.


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Some safe items:
> - 100% solid rubber, such as teething or toss-rings, Kongs, rubber bone-shapes, etc.
> They are dishwasher-safe in the top rack; wash them BEFORE giving them to her, as they powder them with
> a dirt-repelling & anti-stick powder so they don't adhere to one another during manufacture / in shipping,
> ...


its not about how tired she is or how she feels its bout the effect this has on growing bones.

Too much exercise on hard surfaces [such as pavements] and on the leash will cause problems later on in life. Of leash exercise on soft surfaces [like grass] is fine as a dog can go at their own pace.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

I don't put *any* bedding in with a pup or dog who isn't yet housetrained; it's just a chew-toy,
or something to absorb pee. 

OTOH, i also don't use WIRE a-k-a 'show crates', which are designed to make the dog as visible as possible,
while confining them in that space; they are noisy, they rattle & bang, the shallow trays are useless when
a dog DOES have an accident, whether that's pee, diarrhea, vomit, or spilling their water; they splatter & splash,
leak at corners, the plastic trays crack or bend & flex, the metal trays rust & peel paint... they suck, IMO. 

Airline-approved shipping crates are practically impossible to escape from; WIRE crates are not, pups can
slide over the door & under the roof, thru that 'slit'.

Shipping-crates are solid bottoms, so don't leak; WALLS are solid, so they give privacy & protect from drafts.
They are invisible to passersby when they lie down, so feel less vulnerable & can sleep or relax. There's just ONE
entry & exit point, the door --- so they don't feel as threatened when stranded in the middle of a room,
compared to a wire-crate which leaves them pinned down with nowhere to hide, & four permeable walls plus
a permeable ROOF mean they are vulnerable all around - only the FLOOR of a wire-crate is 'solid', & only as solid
as the tray might be. :nonod:

Also, WIRE crates are not *safe!* for transport; they can bend & jam, break & puncture the dog, collapse,
etc; they are a hazard to the occupant, & to other passengers.
SHIPPING crates are the gold-standard for transporting any pet; they are tested for burst-strength & very
well-made, they protect the dog from injury by external objects AND they won't break on impact. :thumbup1:

If U travel with Ur dog, or visit relatives, etc, a shipping-crate is perfect in the car & also serves as a familiar
bedroom once U arrive - at the hotel / friend's home / wherever.

my suggestion:
Look for a used 2-ft x 2-ft x 3-ft long shipping crate on CraigsList, Gumtree, Freecycle, etc; save the cost
of new, any missing fasteners are easily replaced. :thumbup: Spills stay confined, less noise for U,
less exposure for pup.
.
.


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> Some safe items:
> - 100% solid rubber, such as teething or toss-rings, Kongs, rubber bone-shapes, etc.
> They are dishwasher-safe in the top rack; wash them BEFORE giving them to her, as they powder them with
> a dirt-repelling & anti-stick powder so they don't adhere to one another during manufacture / in shipping,
> ...


Wow, thank you for taking the time to write all of that.
We have tried a Nylabone and she made short work of that, so it went in the bin!
She has a deer antler from Pets at Home, I am sure that it doesn't come from China or the USA but I will check that, she has kind of lost interest in that though.
She has a rubber toss ring in the garden, but I will bring that back in for her at night.
I had deliberating getting her a stuffed sterilised bone as well but wasn't sure if it would splinter?

When I walk her, I tend to go to fields/beach/woods, we don't do much walking on pavements and hard surfaces and she is definitely never short of energy. I have to limit the amount of fetch we play as she would play forever! She never slackens off on the walk at all or shows she is tired either. I would never force her to walk too far and if anything, I am the one whining and slacking at the back 

She has a defined waist, from above it dips in below her ribs as you say and from the side, her tummy goes up towards her tail if you understand what I mean? The only thing is she does suffer with gas and poops excessively, someone did suggest a grain intolerance. She was on James Wellbeloved which gave her bad wind and she didn't like it, she is now on Wainwrights which she does like but still has wind and poops a lot!! Any suggestions on what would be good to feed her? I have been recommended Burns and Arden Grange?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Morgiez17 said:


> Wow, thank you for taking the time to write all of that.
> We have tried a Nylabone and she made short work of that, so it went in the bin!


OK - she's a very strong chewer, if U buy a Kong, get the BLACK one in size Large. :thumbup1:


Morgiez17 said:


> She has a deer antler from PAH, I'm sure that it doesn't come from China or the USA but I will check that,
> she has kind of lost interest in that though.


put on disposable gloves & rub the antler with a very-tiny amount of real butter - we're talking just enuf
to make it slightly-shiny, MAYBE a 1/4 teaspoon at most. It adds a nice smell, & gets her into chewing.

When it's dirty, toss it in the top-rack or the tableware compartment of the dishwasher, & re-apply -
use very very little, or it will grease-mark carpets, etc. 



Morgiez17 said:


> She has a rubber toss ring in the garden, but I will bring that back in for her at night.
> I deliberated getting... a *stuffed* sterilised bone as well, but wasn't sure if it would splinter?


buy the bone EMPTY - check for chips on the cut ends, or THIN areas in the walls - it should be thick-walled,
& approx the same thickness thru-out its length, if that makes sense.

Pig-bones are often a bit thicker-walled than beef-bones; lamb leg-bones are also available.

Make Ur own stuffing - this allows U to control ingredients, skip coloring, etc. 

Only leave the bone with her when someone is home, & listen for gagging in case she gets a chip off.
If she succeeds in chipping the ends [check it every day or 2], FILE the chipped part so she can't
get an easy grip with a tooth, to crack or chip it more.  Then wash it, & give it back.


Morgiez17 said:


> When I walk her,...we don't do much walking on pavements and hard surfaces and she's definitely
> never short of energy. I have to limit the amount of fetch we play as she would play forever!
> 
> She never slackens off on the walk at all or shows she is tired either. I would never force her to walk too far
> &* if anything, I am the one whining and slacking at the back.*


As it should be. :lol:


Morgiez17 said:


> She has a defined waist, from above it dips in below her ribs as you say and from the side, her tummy goes up
> towards her tail if you understand what I mean?


EXCELLENT! :thumbup: Rep for U! :thumbup1:


Morgiez17 said:


> ...she does suffer with gas and poops excessively, someone did suggest a grain intolerance.
> 
> She was on James Wellbeloved which gave her bad wind and she didn't like it, she's now on Wainwrights
> which she does like but still has wind and poops a lot!!
> ...


I don't know enuf about UK-dogfoods to have a worthwhile opinion;  but basically, read the ingredients.

The more REAL food [meat first, not "X byproduct", followed by real foods, grain, veg, etc, then by the
vitamins, minerals, any flavorings, fruit, etc, THEN there may be preservatives, coloring, etc],
the better the product.

I'd avoid byproducts of all kinds, including brewer's grain, beet pulp [fiber from sugar beets], etc.

I'd also avoid anything that's made as a *BULK ingredient*, as they are often from Asia - wheat gluten
in the USA, made in China, was used by many USA-makers in pet foods, & killed or sickened thousands
of dogs & cats in 2007 into 2008. :mad5: Chinese producers deliberately added melamine to gluten,
as it's high in nitrogen & makes the protein content soar; they didn't give a dam* that it's toxic & wrecks
kidneys, which is how so many pets died - kidney failure; some survivors had lifelong problems.

here in the USA, i try to buy only foods with USA-sourced ingredients; U can probly stick to UK & EU, safely.
:thumbsup:

Byproducts are cr*p, & the more processing an ingredient gets, the lower its nutritional value.

If U want to go grain-free, potato or other root crops are good carbs for dogs.

re GAS & loose STOOLS - U can:
give probiotics in refrigerate-only, high-potency forms, in the capsule.
give digestive enzymes with every meal [2x / day].
give live-culture organic yogurt to support healthy gut-flora.

UDO'S CHOICE is a great brand of high-potency friendly flora.
ReNew LIFE is a great brand for digestive enzymes [look for 'Ultra'].

Any locally available brand of low-fat organic yogurt is fine; most dogs adore it, & don't need
sweetened forms, plain is yummy.  If she's fussy, go with vanilla.
.
.


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## Morgiez17 (Sep 29, 2014)

Siskin said:


> Good luck and let us know how you get in.


Hi all,

Just a little update, it was Lily's first night being crated last night. Her new crate is huge so I was able to fit her whole bed inside comfortably with water  She went in the crate at 11.30pm last night after her last toilet break and when I came down this morning at 7.45am.......clean crate and well rested puppy!! Went straight outside and had a wee and seemed very happy and relaxed. I appreciate its early days and there may be one or two setbacks but great first night. I am off to a different stockist today to get some feedback on a different low grain dry food, thinking either Burns or Arden grange as I hear a lot of good things about them and then a lovely walk around the nature reserve 
Thanks to everyone for all their help and advice 😄 xxx


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Morgiez17 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Just a little update, it was Lily's first night being crated last night. Her new crate is huge so I was able to fit her whole bed inside comfortably with water  She went in the crate at 11.30pm last night after her last toilet break and when I came down this morning at 7.45am.......clean crate and well rested puppy!! Went straight outside and had a wee and seemed very happy and relaxed. I appreciate its early days and there may be one or two setbacks but great first night. I am off to a different stockist today to get some feedback on a different low grain dry food, thinking either Burns or Arden grange as I hear a lot of good things about them and then a lovely walk around the nature reserve
> Thanks to everyone for all their help and advice 😄 xxx


That is much better time-wise for the pup overnight. Hopefully you continue to experience success from here on - well done for taking the comments on board!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Great stuff and well done listening to what has been said, we've all been there one why or another, so can at least advise from experience.

As I said in an earlier post, this was the first times I've used a crate and it has been a godsend.


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