# Dumb question???? Sorry



## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

Sorry to post such a silly question but here it is anyway .....................

We went to a dog show recently to observe and found out that only 'entire'? dogs/bitches etc are able to be show dogs. Well - we first of all wonder why?? And secondly, our Harvey has just been done (yesterday) and we don't honestly think that anyone would know the difference anyway?? It is not that we are planning to show - it was something we thought about but have decided not to (and now have no choice anyway) - but we are just curious as to how the whole 'show' thing works?? Thanks and huge apologies for what will seem a very silly question to most of you i'm sure !!


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

not a silly question, i was wondering the same thing


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## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

He he - let's hope someone comes along and enlightens us then??? - really curious and want to find out more.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

a judge should feel two testicles so it would be very clear to a judge if it only had one, or none.
Its harder with females to tell.
and dogs that have been neautered can actually be shown


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## lucysnewmum (Feb 25, 2010)

i havent been involved in showing for a great number of years for reasons that are unimportant here.... but....

in my day....it was important for the dogs to be entire for breeding possibilities from a winning line of a certain breed. if you had a show champion it would naturally follow that other breeders would want to investigate the possibility of his genes being passed on to the next litter of puppies. females need to be in full breeding condition for the same reasons. 

dunno if this has changed...but i suspect this is still one of the main reasons for show animals to be entire.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

lucysnewmum said:


> i havent been involved in showing for a great number of years for reasons that are unimportant here.... but....
> 
> in my day....it was important for the dogs to be entire for breeding possibilities from a winning line of a certain breed. if you had a show champion it would naturally follow that other breeders would want to investigate the possibility of his genes being passed on to the next litter of puppies. females need to be in full breeding condition for the same reasons.
> 
> dunno if this has changed...but i suspect this is still one of the main reasons for show animals to be entire.


True thats what its about.

But saying that what if someone didnt want to breed from their bitch? isnt it better to get her spayed and prevent unwanted pups?

I have shown a spayed bitch and won well with her, did anyone know? no they didnt


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## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

All very interesting!!! So do you think that I would still be able to show my pup even though he's been 'done'  And yes I agree about bitches being spayed to avoid unwanted litters - that surely has to be a good thing?? We have had Harvey 'done because we have no plans of breeding from him, and I do understand that people may want to continue 'lines' etc., but surely he shouldn't be excluded from showing just because he can't breed? Because of the circumstances of acquiring Harvey we struggled to find out whether the intention was to breed from him or not but in the end we had to make a decision and this is the one we made (right or wrong) but it seems a shame that he is now excluded from shows as everyone seems to think he is a handsome chappie ( and I have to agree!!).


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

firstly what kind of shows do you mean?fun, companion, open or champ?


secondly yes they will definitely notice the absence of testicles 


but as others have said it is permitted to show dogs that have been neutered you just have to have a note from the KC


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

show regulations

3. No act or operation which alters the natural conformation of a dog or any
part thereof may be performed except:-
(a) Operations certified to the satisfaction of the General Committee.
(b) The removal of dew claws of any breed.
*(c) Operations to prevent breeding provided that such operations are
notified to the Kennel Club before neutered dogs are shown.*Nor must anything be done calculated to in the opinion of the General
Committee to deceive.


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## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

babycham2002 said:


> show regulations
> 
> 3. No act or operation which alters the natural conformation of a dog or any
> part thereof may be performed except:-
> ...


Sorry - finding this hard to 'get to grips with' - does this mean that he can be shown but only if I notify the KC first??


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Sampuppy said:


> Sorry - finding this hard to 'get to grips with' - does this mean that he can be shown but only if I notify the KC first??


Yes :smile: thats right


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## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

babycham2002 said:


> Yes :smile: thats right


Aaaah - so all is not lost then!!! Interesting!!! I don't necessarily want to show him on a really serious level but felt a bit 'miffed' that we might have ruled him out completely by having him 'done'. Nice to have a choice eh?? Thank you for your advice.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

No worries
Its a confusing old world tis dog showing 

Here is the form required
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/394/neutereddogsform.pdf

and the contact details 
Contact Us - The Kennel Club

HTH

Vicki


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sampuppy said:


> Sorry to post such a silly question but here it is anyway .....................
> 
> We went to a dog show recently to observe and found out that only 'entire'? dogs/bitches etc are able to be show dogs. Well - we first of all wonder why?? And secondly, our Harvey has just been done (yesterday) and we don't honestly think that anyone would know the difference anyway?? It is not that we are planning to show - it was something we thought about but have decided not to (and now have no choice anyway) - but we are just curious as to how the whole 'show' thing works?? Thanks and huge apologies for what will seem a very silly question to most of you i'm sure !!


WHO told you that?

Rubbish, Rubbish, Rubbish

All you have to do is notify the kennel club that the dog has been neutered - and I believe need to wait for the acknowledgement before you start showing.

What I would say is part of the breed standard for males is two correctly descended testicles and the judge WILL check them / for them as part of the hands of element of the judging.

Ultimately - the judge will place dogs in terms of their interpretation of the breed standard and this is something a male neutered dog (females the judge would have no idea) will always fall down on - and therefore would really need to excel against his counterparts in the ring in order to do well.

I was looking for the form to post the link - but can see that Babycham has beat me to it - thanks - will make a note of the link for future reference


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sampuppy said:


> Aaaah - so all is not lost then!!! Interesting!!! I don't necessarily want to show him on a really serious level but felt a bit 'miffed' that we might have ruled him out completely by having him 'done'. Nice to have a choice eh?? Thank you for your advice.


Don't forget - particularly over the summer - there are lots of Companion shows on - which you don't need to notify the KC beforehand or enter in advance - just turn up on the day.

You will get a lot of up and coming judges and you will be surprised at from what I can see is an increasing number of established exhibitors going to Companion shows with their youngsters - having judged a number of companion shows - I have to say there really is a fair amount of quality entered at most shows and entries are big.

Most companion shows also have Novelty classes which are also great fun and cover a whole range of things from prettiest bitch to most handsome dog, to the dog the judge would most like to take home with them (my baby won a huge class for this recently at a Companion show we went to )

Be aware that fun dog shows are different - they are not KC Licensed events and will be just novelty classes - depending on the event - classes can be bigger again than the Companion shows - a friend went to one last weekend and there were over 100 entries in her class (which she won )

Good luck if you decide to have a dabble - if you are serious about going into the ring - then go along to a couple of shows and see what happens - and the dogs on show - Champ shows, you will be unlikely to be able to take your boy into the show (although a lot of shows, have an unentered dog tent at the entry) - but Open and Limit shows - you can normally enter your own dog as Not for Competition (NFC) for a few pounds


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2011)

I rang up ages ago to ask about showing Kai (who has 1 testicle) and they siad I could as long as I told them I was showing him. However they also told me it was pointless as the judge wouldnt place a 1 testicled dog....:blink:

So we left it at that. 

As long as you tell them he's been neutered they should be fine about showing him.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I rang up ages ago to ask about showing Kai (who has 1 testicle) and they siad I could as long as I told them I was showing him. However they also told me it was pointless as the judge wouldnt place a 1 testicled dog....:blink:
> 
> So we left it at that.
> 
> As long as you tell them he's been neutered they should be fine about showing him.


I think it's a bit harsh to say he wouldn't be placed - that is the judges decision on the day.

Having said that - a neutered dog is clearly a decision made by the owner - a one testicled dog is clearly a fault (unless surgically removed for some reason) - so there is a very real difference there - i.e. very obvious fault versus conscious decision.

To be quite frank - there is only one way to establish whether your dog will do anything in the showring, neutered, entire or with one testicle - and that is to get out there - enter your dogs and see what happens - and to do it seriously, you have to do it on a regular basis - dogs go through different growth phases, coat phases- being generally out of sorts - a single good result in isolation can happen to anyone - it's results over a period of time which are a much better measurement.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I wouldnt place a dog with one testicle over another because to be fair, I wouldnt want said dog to be bred from, there for is not of good enough quality in my eyes to be placed.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I wouldnt place a dog with one testicle over another because to be fair, I wouldnt want said dog to be bred from, there for is not of good enough quality in my eyes to be placed.


This is the thing I completely agree! I think a dog should be placed on it being good quality meaning breeding is an option (unless the owner decided to neuter it) although Kai is good in every other way he lacks something that I think matters a great deal....I only expect good examples of the breed to be placed and that means 2 testicles.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

some judges will place, because its just one fault - I think it depends in the judges opinion how much of a fault it is, over a dog of the same quality with a fault in another area.


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## lucysnewmum (Feb 25, 2010)

judges vary up and down the country as to what they consider acceptable but certainly the potential for breeding comes into their decision to place a dog.

if you are just out to have fun with your dog and learn ringcraft the i suggest small shows, fun dogs shows are a great way to start. talk with other owners about their thoughts on the subject of showing a fixed dog in more formal surroundings. 
you can learn a great deal from other owners about the general feelings of others who are more seriously into dog showing...
BUT
be warned.... I know from experience that you will come in for a lot of flack from owners of entire dogs if your dog is placed above them!!!!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> some judges will place, because its just one fault - I think it depends in the judges opinion how much of a fault it is, over a dog of the same quality with a fault in another area.


TBH - it really does depend what else is in the class - you have to remember that the show is 'on the day' and the competition will often vary from show to show - judges preferences may also vary.

I do agree that one testicle is a very obvious fault - and not a fault that could be 'disguised' however good the handler is - but on the day - if that dog is the best in the class - it's up to the judge to make that decision.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

lucysnewmum said:


> judges vary up and down the country as to what they consider acceptable but certainly the potential for breeding comes into their decision to place a dog.
> 
> if you are just out to have fun with your dog and learn ringcraft the i suggest small shows, fun dogs shows are a great way to start. talk with other owners about their thoughts on the subject of showing a fixed dog in more formal surroundings.
> you can learn a great deal from other owners about the general feelings of others who are more seriously into dog showing...
> ...


The only time I have ever seen a castrated dog placed first at an open show it's owner was dragged out of the ring by her hair by another handler


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

hawksport said:


> The only time I have ever seen a castrated dog placed first at an open show it's owner was dragged out of the ring by her hair by another handler


     are you serious   



lucysnewmum said:


> judges vary up and down the country as to what they consider acceptable but certainly the potential for breeding comes into their decision to place a dog.


You could argue this for dogs and bitches - whereas of course, the ladies, the judge wouldn't know one way or the other


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

swarthy said:


> are you serious


I am and if it were in my breed I would of been ashamed


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sampuppy said:


> Aaaah - so all is not lost then!!! Interesting!!! I don't necessarily want to show him on a really serious level but felt a bit 'miffed' that we might have ruled him out completely by having him 'done'. Nice to have a choice eh?? Thank you for your advice.





swarthy said:


> All you have to do is notify the kennel club that the dog has been neutered - and I believe need to wait for the acknowledgement before you start showing.


What actually happens is that the Kennel Club will send you an acknowledgement letter, giving you permission to show. You will then need to take photocopies of the letter and hand a photocopy to the ring steward at the beginning of judging for your breed. The steward will then show the letter to the judge at the beginning of your class, and the copy is kept and sent back to the KC with the results.

The judge should not take neutering as a fault - although from what I understand some do. We have been fortunate enough not to have some across it much.

Gabby was neutered at 6 months because of pyometra, and she had a long and successful show career, with 6 RB, 15 BB and 10 BOB - and all despite the various judges knowing she was neutered because of the KC letter we produced each time.

Baggio had to be neutered just over a year ago because of a tumour on his testicle and we continued to show him until we retured him a month or so ago - and he was always placed.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> What actually happens is that the Kennel Club will send you an acknowledgement letter, giving you permission to show.


You don't need 'permission' as such any more, although you will get a letter of them.

I've just contacted the KC on this, as I was curious, as I know a number of people showing neutered dogs and have never been aware of any paperwork changing hands prior to going into the ring.

The KC advise that the letter should be retained by the owner and taken to shows - but does not need to be presented to either the steward or judge unless it is requested.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

swarthy said:


> TBH - it really does depend what else is in the class - you have to remember that the show is 'on the day' and the competition will often vary from show to show - judges preferences may also vary.
> 
> I do agree that one testicle is a very obvious fault - and not a fault that could be 'disguised' however good the handler is - but on the day - if that dog is the best in the class - it's up to the judge to make that decision.


I wouldnt take a dog into the ring with one testicle, nor would I breed on from a dog with one testicle. so I personally wouldnt feel right placing one highly. 
To me its quite a big fault, it can lead to health problems and be brought down lines, I wouldnt want to be apart of promoting that, by placing the dog. To me any dog with one testicle is pet quality.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I wouldnt take a dog into the ring with one testicle, nor would I breed on from a dog with one testicle. so I personally wouldnt feel right placing one highly.
> To me its quite a big fault, it can lead to health problems and be brought down lines, I wouldnt want to be apart of promoting that, by placing the dog. To me any dog with one testicle is pet quality.


I agree with this.

We bought Kai as a potential show dog however his testicle never dropped we knew its not "right" to show him. If it had been an accident and he had lost his testicle that way fair enough but he was born that way.

I was told a few times to show him but others told me its not worth it and I tend to agree. I am quite happy having him tagging along as NFC instead. I think he's pretty happy with that too.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

I am probably the one that gave sampuppy the impression that you couldnt show a castrated dog, but bearing in mind the coat change that happens to a golden retriever once castrated, most coats go to resemble candy floss in a golden especially one castrated as young as Harvey . Easier to show some breeds depending on the coat and how it 'copes' with the change in hormonal makeup. 

Personally I would never show a castrated male and although the coat that comes through on a tibetan once spayed is fab I have never done that either - but as I say that is just my personal preference and probably VERY old school


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

swarthy said:


> You don't need 'permission' as such any more, although you will get a letter of them.
> 
> I've just contacted the KC on this, as I was curious, as I know a number of people showing neutered dogs and have never been aware of any paperwork changing hands prior to going into the ring.
> 
> The KC advise that the letter should be retained by the owner and taken to shows - but does not need to be presented to either the steward or judge unless it is requested.


Perhaps this is why you (not you personally hun!) hear so many people saying that judges don't place neutered dogs? We've always taken in a copy of the letter every time we've shown Gabby and, lately, Baggio - the steward has always kept it and as I said above, we've had numerous placings and BOBs.

ETA - as for needing permission - the wording on Baggio's letter (dated July 2010) states: "Your application to continue showing has been approved in line with existing policy and having been supported by a Vetinary Certificate". I haven't got a scanner or I would scan it it for you to see.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Perhaps this is why you (not you personally hun!) hear so many people saying that judges don't place neutered dogs? We've always taken in a copy of the letter every time we've shown Gabby and, lately, Baggio - the steward has always kept it and as I said above, we've had numerous placings and BOBs.
> 
> ETA - as for needing permission - the wording on Baggio's letter (dated July 2010) states: "Your application to continue showing has been approved in line with existing policy and having been supported by a Vetinary Certificate". I haven't got a scanner or I would scan it it for you to see.


Not me  - I agree, if a dog is good enough, then there is no reason why it should't get placed - I've known of entire dogs placed and written up as bitches  which does raise some questions 

I've got a bitch here that will never be bred from, yet she has done superbly for me in the ring - I've not made a final decision on whether I will neuter her or not yet - I do get concerned when I hear of disagreements between resident bitches, and invariably it does seem that at least one is neutered - and I know of friends who have had resident dogs neutered and it's changed the dynamics of the 'pack' so severely they've been unable to have the dogs together under the same roof.

I am incredibly lucky in that all five of my girls get on famously, and when they are living inside, that's absolutely imperative, I would come totally unstuck if one or more of them fell out 

I am not disputing the content of the letter - it's just as I understand it - previously (a fair few years ago) each individual case had to 'apply' for permission to show - whereas now, permission is, as I understand it, granted by default - therefore technically you are not asking for permission, even though that's how the letter reads (if that makes sense) - and the owner is advised to take it to shows with them in case it's requested.

One of my girls was recently up against a neutered dog, very little to chose between the two dogs, but we won the class, I never did get to speak to the judge - but it would be interesting to know whether the neutering was a factor - I know I've placed a neutered dog 1st in a class of around 15 at a Companion show, but then with equivalent quality entire dogs alongside him in the final line up, been unable to justify giving him BIS 

I am absolutely horrified, as I imagine most would be, at even the thought that an exhibitor could be dragged from the ring because their neutered dog won the class  I can understand someone not being overly happy if they believe their dog is better, and maybe not going under that judge with that dog again, but - well.......... words fail me


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## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

tashi said:


> I am probably the one that gave sampuppy the impression that you couldnt show a castrated dog, but bearing in mind the coat change that happens to a golden retriever once castrated, most coats go to resemble candy floss in a golden especially one castrated as young as Harvey . Easier to show some breeds depending on the coat and how it 'copes' with the change in hormonal makeup.
> 
> Personally I would never show a castrated male and although the coat that comes through on a tibetan once spayed is fab I have never done that either - but as I say that is just my personal preference and probably VERY old school


Tashi - it wasn't you that imparted that information to me - it was a guy at a show that we visited who mentioned it and it is something I had never thought of!!!  hope his coat doesn't begin to resemble candy floss or i'll have to eat him!!!! Yum yum - i'm not far off eating him now with the amount of kisses and cuddles I give him!!! Anyway - it's job done now and he will always be 'special' to us whether he's got his nuts or not lol


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## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

Having read through this again and having given it some consideration I have deceded that castrated or not 'showing ' is not for me!! I have decided that Harvey is too damn amazing to be sat in a show all day - he's better off at home running free in the garden!! However - I shall be going to some shows to see all the dogs and speak with owners etc - I loved doing that the other week!!! (and my kids did too!!!). Good luck to all that show their dogs - AND Tashi - you are amazing and I can't wait to meet up again!!! (with Diesel of course!!!).


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sampuppy said:


> I have decided that Harvey is too damn amazing to be sat in a show all day - he's better off at home running free in the garden!! However - I shall be going to some shows to see all the dogs and speak with owners etc - I loved doing that the other week!!! (and my kids did too!!!). Good luck to all that show their dogs - AND Tashi - you are amazing and I can't wait to meet up again!!! (with Diesel of course!!!).


That could be construed as very condescending to people who do show.

Firstly, with the exception of Crufts - dogs don't do a great deal of sitting at shows, and are seldom there all day.

Secondly, most of us show one, occasionally twice a week - others much less frequently.

Thirdly - my dogs spend the remainder of their time running free in the garden, on the beach, in the park, going for swims, rolling in mud - finding the occasional compost heap or pile of 'interesting' pool, in and out of the pool for most of spring, summer and autumn - and basically having a ball.

But they also have a ball when they go to shows - because in very simple terms - if a dog doesn't like showing, you will seldom see it in the ring after the first couple of attempts.

Some dogs are literally 'born to show' - but enjoy all the other luxuries of other pet homes - the biggest fuss we get in our house, is not going out for a walk, or to the park, or to the beach, or even food time - their utmost pleasure lays in going to a show - with right humphs from the ones being left behind  It's also, for a lot of dogs, a surprisingly tiring activity.

In addition to the above, certainly in my own breed, an increasing number are training / working their dogs, and some even doing things such as agility, companion dogs (as in going in to old people's homes etc), Good Citizen awards - the list goes on.

All these dogs are amazing - because they can and so adapt happily and easily to whatever you want them to be on the day


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Said much better than I could have done swarthy thank you

It is a nightmare in this house to try and only get one dog out when you have the showbag in hand, they all want to come 

Us enjoying a show as a family










and Percy loves sunbathing and a tickle at Windsor










Like Swarthy the rest of the week they are running and playing like any other dog but they thoroughly enjoy their days out at shows. I wouldnt take them if they didnt.

Infact my Goldie despite being out of breed standard and not great conformation I will still spend amounts of money entering her into companions and some opens just because she loves it so much
They all do agility as well as training for their Kennel Club Good citizen awards, Willow has passed gold, Rocky is doing his silver and Percy is doing his bronze.


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## Sampuppy (Oct 22, 2008)

I am soooooo sorry and didn't mean any offence I promise!!! It is just my sense of humour and ignorance I guess. What I meant was that I am too bloomin useless myself to be as committed as the people I saw showing the other week and was just blarting about how handsome my little boy is. Please, please do not feel that I was being 'cocky' in any way - if you knew me personally you would understand. I have the greatest respect for people that have the dedication and committment to show their dogs and really wish I had that quality myself but I just don't have it so i'd rather go and see others do it 'properly'. Again - I did not mean to cause any offence and am sorry if it came across the wrong way.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

No worries, I understand 



Vicki
c


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

i've judged a neutered rc, fortunately for me he was not a good specimen was unsound and had a glaring fault, pricked ears so was placed last. I never saw him again in the ring.Before i started the class the steward gave me a letter from kc giving them permission to show him.


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## leafy (Jan 9, 2011)

I showed mine for the first time the other week at an open show and he's been done. We came last but it was more the taking part for me and learning new things. We did better in the companion show. I just enjoy the day out and meeting new people.


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