# For daring to voice an opinion....



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Because I dared to voice my own opinion regarding Shadowrat's issue with her own dog, I thought I would explain my situation because it seems as "how dare I offer my opinion when my own dogs are not perfect"..


Max was born in a shelter in Greece. He spent a year in the shelter, 6 months in UK quarantine and 4 further months in a UK kennel.

Lilly spent at least a year and a half in the shelter in Greece, she was possibly a street dog before that, we are not sure. She then spent 6 months in UK quarantine and 4 further months in a UK kennel. 

Neither had been in a home before I homed them. A volunteer from the rescue had tried to foster Max but he was so unsettled and distressed that he was returned. 

Neither dogs were rarely walked, although I believe they had managed to walk them a handful of times prior to them being homed.

Shelters in Greece are not like in the UK. There is little human contact and there are not individual kennels, instead all the dogs are in one. This can lead to fights, death of dogs and they have to find a way to cope in there. 

Neither dogs have any trust in humans and they fear other dogs, probably as a result of the shelter. 

Taking on the two dogs meant that their bond is greater with each other than with me. There is nothing that I can do about that, it is the way it is. I tried training classes over the years, but neither dogs can bare to be out of their comfort zone. 

If I had rehomed one of the dogs I am confident that the other dog would have been far less reactive in certain situations, but I would not give up on them.

So no my dogs are not perfect, and I don't claim them to be. But they are respectful in the house, have never ever shown any aggression in ANY form to me, ever been possessive of any item and do as their told. No they don't trust humans, and will attack in the house if somebody comes in. I can't undo their bad start in life and there are some things you can't change.

But I should be able to voice my own opinions on a thread without my dogs being thrown in to it.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I think you either missed the point of the comments, or are choosing to misconstrue them. 

You were giving advice, based on how you treat your own dogs, but from your own admission how you have trained your dogs has not been overly successful, therefore it was not the best advice?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Tbh I think there were a few snotty comments directed at another member as well as yourself. Don't worry about it too much, I wouldn't 

If only people with 'perfect' dogs can reply or give their opinion then this will be one very quiet forum!!!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> Tbh I think there were a few snotty comments directed at another member as well as yourself. Don't worry about it too much, I wouldn't
> 
> If only people with 'perfect' dogs can reply or give their opinion then this will be one very quiet forum!!!


Thanks, I have taken it very personally though x


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> r
> 
> But I should be able to voice my own opinions on a thread without my dogs being thrown in to it.


Yes, you should. 
But others also have the right of reply so if it offends you, walk away from the keyboard. 
It`s only t`internet.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> I think you either missed the point of the comments, or are choosing to misconstrue them.
> 
> You were giving advice, based on how you treat your own dogs, but from your own admission how you have trained your dogs has not been overly successful, therefore it was not the best advice?


And you are missing the point...

Not all dogs can be "trained". You cannot always override their start in life, whatever you try.

Doesn't mean my opinion is wrong because I chose to take 2 dogs on with their history..

There are many more people on this forum who only use positive methods and have problems with their dogs...


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> And you are missing the point...
> 
> Not all dogs can be "trained". You cannot always override their start in life, whatever you try.
> 
> ...


You said your dogs were happy to be stroked, but then regressed and would now attack people. 

Pretty much every single dog CAN be trained. It's entirely down to the trainer as to how successfully.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> You said your dogs were happy to be stroked, but then regressed and would now attack people.
> 
> Pretty much every single dog CAN be trained. It's entirely down to the trainer as to how successfully.


With strangers in the house...

In the early days when they had no confidence they would put up with it. Now they won;t because we have almost given them the confidence to say "no"

Never, ever with us..


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> With strangers in the house...
> 
> In the early days when they had no confidence they would put up with it. Now they won;t because we have almost given them the confidence to say "no"
> 
> Never, ever with us..


If the 'confidence to say no' entails biting people, I'm not convinced that's a good thing?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> You said your dogs were happy to be stroked, but then regressed and would now attack people.
> 
> *Pretty much every single dog CAN be trained. It's entirely down to the trainer as to how successfully*.


Do you mean trained or a behaviour modified?

If you mean behaviour modification then I think you are completely wrong. I have known many people whose dogs have never been able to handle certain situations/environments/noises etc & no amount of 'training' would have helped them.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Do you mean trained or a behaviour modified?
> 
> If you mean behaviour modification then I think you are completely wrong. I have known many people whose dogs have never been able to handle certain situations/environments/noises etc & no amount of 'training' would have helped them.


Well it's odd that the best trainers can manage to sort out 'untrainable' dogs in that case.

As for your dog biting goodvic, biting humans is not a sign of being 'confident', it's often a sign of insecurity.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> If the 'confidence to say no' entails biting people, I'm not convinced that's a good thing?


It's not a good thing. I would do anything to change it but I can't.

Fundamentally I have 2 dogs who work as a pack. I can't change that mentality.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> It's not a good thing. I would do anything to change it but I can't.
> 
> Fundamentally I have 2 dogs who work as a pack. I can't change that mentality.


So instead of having dogs who would be stroked by strangers, you 'gave them the confidence' to bite strangers instead? I don't quite understand.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Well it's odd that the best trainers can manage to sort out 'untrainable' dogs in that case.
> 
> As for your dog biting goodvic, biting humans is not a sign of being 'confident', it's often a sign of insecurity.


I think that's quite a bold statement to make & incorrect. The 'best' trainers cannot sort out every dog, at times a behaviour is too deep rooted & can only be managed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> Pretty much every single dog CAN be trained. It's entirely down to the trainer as to how successfully.


I haven't read the other comments so haven't a clue what's been said, but just wanted to pick up on this. Not really always true, and it's a balancing act. My last rescue dog had terrible temperament issues, they were manageable, but there is no way I could ever have trained them out of her completely, they were deeply entrenched and most likely a result of her past life with her owner(s). And given that this was a very old girl, who had had an awful life, is it worth spending months trying to resolve issues if they are manageable, rather than trying to train the out? Hence why it is sometimes a balancing act for me.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> Well it's odd that the best trainers can manage to sort out 'untrainable' dogs in that case.
> 
> As for your dog biting goodvic, biting humans is not a sign of being 'confident', it's often a sign of insecurity.


They are massively insecure. They have no confidence. BUT as they got _more_ confident they didn't feel they had to accept strangers in the home.

I don't encourage the behaviour, I detest it.

Five years on and Lilly will still shake and freeze if somebody (outside of the house) tries to stroke her.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> I think that's quite a bold statement to make & incorrect. The 'best' trainers cannot sort out every dog, at times a behaviour is too deep rooted & can only be managed.


I don't think you'll find I've ever said every single dog can be managed by the best trainers. I said pretty much. There are some cases where a dog is 'untreatable', but with the right handling most dogs can be 'behaviour modified' just fine. Every trainer has their limitations though, some are higher or lower than others.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> They are massively insecure. They have no confidence. BUT as they got _more_ confident they didn't feel they had to accept strangers in the home.
> 
> I don't encourage the behaviour, I detest it.
> 
> Five years on and Lilly will still shake and freeze if somebody (outside of the house) tries to stroke her.


You obviously knw your dogs better than anyone else, but considering you describe them as having no confidence I find it hard to believe they bite out of some feeling of confidence. It's an oxymoron.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> I don't think you'll find I've ever said every single dog can be managed by the best trainers. I said pretty much. There are some cases where a dog is 'untreatable', but with the right handling most dogs can be 'behaviour modified' just fine. Every trainer has their limitations though, some are higher or lower than others.


I think (IME) that this is still a very broad brush statement & it would depend on the dog, the issues, the severity of the behaviour, the risk posed to people or other animals, etc.

It isn't always about finding the 'right trainer' but also having the dog in an environment where the handler can manage the problems, try to minimise them, keep people/other pets safe, etc as well as keeping the dog happy. It can be much more complex than you appear to be infering.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Do you mean trained or a behaviour modified?
> 
> If you mean behaviour modification then I think you are completely wrong. I have known many people whose dogs have never been able to handle certain situations/environments/noises etc & no amount of 'training' would have helped them.


I fully agree. I spent 8 years working my ass off with Rupert to no avail on certain issues. And to be fair, the same thing that has been said to Goodvic about their methods could well have been said to me about clicker training.

Not all problems can be fixed and sometimes you just have to do the best you can and manage the problems.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> I fully agree. I spent 8 years working my ass off with Rupert to no avail on certain issues. And to be fair, the same thing that has been said to Goodvic about their methods could well have been said to me about clicker training.
> 
> Not all problems can be fixed and sometimes you just have to do the best you can and manage the problems.


Rupert was one of the dogs I was thinking of


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Sarah1983 said:


> I fully agree. I spent 8 years working my ass off with Rupert to no avail on certain issues. And to be fair, the same thing that has been said to Goodvic about their methods could well have been said to me about clicker training.
> 
> Not all problems can be fixed and sometimes you just have to do the best you can and manage the problems.


I did try clicker training but neither dogs will eat treats when stressed and strange people make them stressed. They also don't play with toys so I can't use that as a motivator.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I don't know anything about the previous converstion, but surely it's a matter of resources?

With unlimited resources (time, enviornment, 'The World's Best Trainer' - whoever that may be for that particular dog in that particular situation) you could pretty well sort out anything. BUT, and it's a huge but, no one has access to unlimited resources, so at the end of the day it's about pragmatism and making the best of what resources you have available at the time. You'll not get the best result possible, but you can make it better than it was.


sorry for the ramble


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Old Shep said:


> I don't know anything about the previous converstion, but surely it's a matter of resources?
> 
> With unlimited resources (time, enviornment, 'The World's Best Trainer' - whoever that may be for that particular dog in that particular situation) you could pretty well sort out anything. BUT, and it's a huge but, no one has access to unlimited resources, so at the end of the day it's about pragmatism and making the best of what resources you have available at the time. You'll not get the best result possible, but you can make it better than it was.
> 
> sorry for the ramble


I agree to a point..

But I think that a dog whom was born and spent the first year and a half in a shelter is unlikely to become a well balanced dog.

I think if you had unlimited resources then you could make things a lot better though


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I don't think you'll find I've ever said every single dog can be managed by the best trainers. I said pretty much. There are some cases where a dog is 'untreatable', but* with the right handling most dogs can be 'behaviour modified' just fine*. Every trainer has their limitations though, some are higher or lower than others.


But that's not behaviour modification. It's management - so if the dog was handled by someone else, or the management dropped (which is often what owners do, thinking the dog is 'cured') the dog would revert. Genuinely modified behaviour works on everyone - for instance I couldn't let Fred go for Gold Good Citizen when he was younger because he was awful about being handled and would bite - but now he lets not only me but my dog walker staff towel him off after a walk - so that's modified. I'd trust him with a stranger wanting to handle him all over now.

The 'best trainers' can't own every dog with problems in the world...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Well it's odd that the best trainers can manage to sort out 'untrainable' dogs in that case.
> 
> As for your dog biting goodvic, biting humans is not a sign of being 'confident', it's often a sign of insecurity.


That's odd as the Dogs Trust has several dogs living in their special Sanctuary
for dogs that can't be rehabilitated 

http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/rehoming/hardtorehome/default.aspx#.UNNVh6ya-So


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Rupert was one of the dogs I was thinking of


I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or a bad thing lol. God did I struggle with him at times! And with the comments of people who'd never met him but insisted all his problems were simply down to me not doing something right.

I'm sure in the right environment with someone a lot more experienced with dogs like him he'd have been better than he was but I don't think he'd ever have been normal.

Goodvic, Rupe wasn't interested in food or toys either. He'd eat in the house and play to some extent but outside there was no chance, too many things to stress him out. The world was full of Rupert Eating Monsters :nonod:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

rona said:


> That's odd as the Dogs Trust has several dogs living in their special Sanctuary
> for dogs that can't be rehabilitated
> 
> Dogs Trust - Hard to Rehome


I wonder if the sanctuary is as nice as it sounds?

Bless them, poor things x


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> I wonder if the sanctuary is as nice as it sounds?
> 
> Bless them, poor things x


Have a look, see what you think 

Dogs Trust: Six months in the life of Dogs Trust Sanctuary

Looks pretty damn good to me


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> Because I dared to voice my own opinion regarding Shadowrat's issue with her own dog, I thought I would explain my situation because it seems as "how dare I offer my opinion when my own dogs are not perfect"..


First off, I think its lovely that you rescued your dogs from a bad situation. I mean that sincerely.

Secondly, no. It's not a case of how dare you offer your opinion when your dogs are not perfect, it's a case of don't chide the OP for not using a type of training that didn't even work for your dogs. You used your dogs as an example of how the OP's dog doesn't know who's in charge, yet your dogs' behavior contradicts what you're recommending.

If I came on here telling folks that the solution to dogs pulling on lead is to use a prong collar, and then posted about how my dogs pull on a leash even though I use a prong, but it's excusable because they're rescues, yeah, I think folks are going to have an issue with that.



goodvic2 said:


> I should be able to voice my own opinions on a thread without my dogs being thrown in to it.


Then don't use your dogs as an example of how well your training works.

That said, I'm sorry my post hurt you. I know what it is to get defensive about your dogs, and I know how rotten it feels when your dogs are picked on. 
When I first joined, I had a member here scroll through my youtube account and vote down every video they could find, just because they disagreed with my training. It sucks. And I'm sorry if I made you feel the way I felt, that was NOT my intention. I was simply trying to point out that if you're going to recommend something, it should be something that was successful.

Yet now *I* am feeling defensive with the fact that you started an entire thread just because you don't like MY opinion about your opinion  Silly huh?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

rona said:


> Have a look, see what you think
> 
> Dogs Trust: Six months in the life of Dogs Trust Sanctuary
> 
> Looks pretty damn good to me


Thanks for sharing that video. Nice to think that those dogs have that quality of life x


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

well.....now I feel bad for starting a thread that obviously caused so much drama, it wasn't my intention.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

ouesi said:


> First off, I think its lovely that you rescued your dogs from a bad situation. I mean that sincerely.
> 
> Secondly, no. It's not a case of how dare you offer your opinion when your dogs are not perfect, it's a case of don't chide the OP for not using a type of training that didn't even work for your dogs. You used your dogs as an example of how the OP's dog doesn't know who's in charge, yet your dogs' behavior contradicts what you're recommending.
> 
> ...


Just because I have been unsuccessful with my own dogs and their mistrust of people it doesn't mean that my methods have not been successful in other areas of their development.

I tried positive methods but when a dog is not motivated by treats or toys then it is very difficult.

I can never undo the issue they have with people. Does that mean I cannot put my views across?

What about the huge improvements they have made? I don't talk about them because this isn't about what I have achieved.

I feel that we are going round in circles and to be honest it is a little confusing.

The message I am getting is "don't offer advice or criticism when I have outstanding issues with my own dogs"

I appreciate the explanation you have given but do feel unfair that my views are boo hooed because of their issues


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Shadowrat said:


> well.....now I feel bad for starting a thread that obviously caused so much drama, it wasn't my intention.


You haven't..

I am guilty for using emotive language in my post which can rile people.

But it does show what happens if your views are not the same as everyone else's.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I understand what you mean about entrenched behaviour being difficult to change, I've had a similar problem with Jodi over the years. She's elderly now and her behaviour has modified, but it's still there and we prefer to manage the situation.

It's great that you have rescued the dogs from Greece. The Greeks do have a different attitudes to cats and dogs then we do. My son has just returned from living in Greece and came home with two former street cats. One was rescued as a tiny kitten and the other just made friends with them. They tried to rescue a three week old kitten which had just been discarded. It was in a busy area but people were walking past ignoring the little thing on the pavement. A women eventually picked it up, but then dumped it in a box on the rubbish pile. My son and his wife tried desperately to care for it, but it succumbed.
When they were driving home, they were most distressed to see so many dead dogs living on the side of the road. Well done you for bringing the dogs from an awful situation and trying your best with them.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Siskin said:


> I understand what you mean about entrenched behaviour being difficult to change, I've had a similar problem with Jodi over the years. She's elderly now and her behaviour has modified, but it's still there and we prefer to manage the situation.
> 
> It's great that you have rescued the dogs from Greece. The Greeks do have a different attitudes to cats and dogs then we do. My son has just returned from living in Greece and came home with two former street cats. One was rescued as a tiny kitten and the other just made friends with them. They tried to rescue a three week old kitten which had just been discarded. It was in a busy area but people were walking past ignoring the little thing on the pavement. A women eventually picked it up, but then dumped it in a box on the rubbish pile. My son and his wife tried desperately to care for it, but it succumbed.
> When they were driving home, they were most distressed to see so many dead dogs living on the side of the road. Well done you for bringing the dogs from an awful situation and trying your best with them.


Thank you.

As you say the Greeks attitudes are somewhat different to ours... I believe the animals over there have an inherent distrust of people and that it is inbred in them.

Some of the stories you hear are shocking over there


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> I tried positive methods but when a dog is not motivated by treats or toys then it is very difficult.


It must be.
Im lucky in that Dresden is extremely motivated by both food and toys. Im not sure what I'd do if he wasn't.



goodvic2 said:


> What about the huge improvements they have made? I don't talk about them because this isn't about what I have achieved.


Im guilty of rarely posting about when Dres is good, and only posting when he's bad! If I posted about every thing he did right, I'd flood the board! Probably gives the impression that he's much worse than he is.



goodvic2 said:


> The message I am getting is "don't offer advice or criticism when I have outstanding issues with my own dogs"
> 
> I appreciate the explanation you have given but do feel unfair that my views are boo hooed because of their issues


I don't think its a case of dont give advice unless your own dogs are perfect, because if that was the case, I don't think anyone here would be allowed to give advice!
I think its more the way it was put across, such as how you told me my dog effectively is taking the pee out of me, not listening because he doesn't see me as in control and such, and I always think thats a dangerous thing to tell people unless you know their dog inside and out, and know them as a person, and see their interactions with their dog.

I don't think one can make that judgement just based on one specific behaviour issue, especially an issue which is as confusing as Dresden's one ie, no-one is 100% sure what the cause of it is, it really isn't clear. It could be anything from a stress response, an over-excitement thing, an attention seeking thing, a jealousy thing, a boredom thing, a frustration thing, a play thing. All are entirely possible given the context in which this behaviour pops up. 
If I knew which of these it was, it would make coming up with a game plan a bit easier. 
One thing I do know for sure is that it doesn't happen in the house, or walking off lead. Its strictly a walking on lead issue, so that narrows it down a tad but still.....not much!

So by telling me that if I do X, Y and Z, my dog will see me more as the 'boss' and not play up, then you probably have to be able to show some evidence that such a training method has proved successful for you. Particularly with a method as controversial as dominance theory, which is always going to have to work harder to prove itself.

Dominance theory is popular specifically because it can be used by people who don't know much about dog to explain any dog behaviour.
Pulling on the lead? Dominance. Eating too fast? Dominance. Mouthing? Dominance. Spending too long at the drinking bowl? Dominance. Accident in the house? Dominance. 
Well, I could go on and on. There isn't a single dog behavioural issue that I've not seen attributed to dominance by someone at some point. Im sure thats why its so popular: its easy.
But thats also part of why it is so potentially damaging.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> Just because I have been unsuccessful with my own dogs and their mistrust of people it doesn't mean that my methods have not been successful in other areas of their development.
> 
> I tried positive methods but when a dog is not motivated by treats or toys then it is very difficult.
> 
> ...


I don't know if you are deliberately misconstruing my posts or if you are just determined to make yourself out as a victim.

You told shadowrat that the dog was walking all over her and basically said he/she should not have gotten this breed as a first time dog owner. 
You then mocked me when I mentioned that dobes are velcro dogs.

But dare anyone disagree with YOU and we get an entire thread about how poor you can't post an opinion without getting attacked.

I have apologized - sincerely, and this is the response I get. More "woe is me I can't post my opinion." 
It seems to me like you very much can, and have.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

ouesi said:


> You told shadowrat that the dog was walking all over her and basically said he/she should not have gotten this breed as a first time dog owner.


Yeah, gotta admit, that did vex me a bit.
My dog doesn't walk all over me, and I think I do fab with him as a first time owner who got a 'hard' breed, and a high drive individual within that breed!
Baptism of fire or what! :001_tongue:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

ouesi said:


> I don't know if you are deliberately misconstruing my posts or if you are just determined to make yourself out as a victim.
> 
> You told shadowrat that the dog was walking all over her and basically said he/she should not have gotten this breed as a first time dog owner.
> You then mocked me when I mentioned that dobes are velcro dogs.
> ...


I did not mock you. This was my reply..

"What do you think bull breeds and GSD's to name a couple are like?

Dobe's are not the only breed to want to be near their owner.

Ultimately a dog whom is constantly following you around is calling the shots... Fine if you don't have a problem with your dog..."

I don't mind people slating my views but disagree with my dogs being brought in to it!


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## blossom21 (Oct 29, 2012)

Im not getting into the fray as I didnt read the original posting, but I will say this.Bramble is a velcro dog and I dont think for one single second he is calling the shots in this house or with me. I can explain this behaviour without a shadow of doubt, I adopted this gorgeous little man who in his previous home although loved was walked infrequently, was left 6-8 hours a day with nothing for company. I know he has built perhaps to strong a bond with me and likes to shadow me around the house, but am I surprised,no not in the least and I dont mind up to a point. I just see it as him saying please dont leave me, my OH is retired and I work part time and yet still he cant grasp that there will always be someone here for him. Slooooooooowly he is improving with the shadowing,I always say he's a work in progress bless him. A load of other issues he had we have gradually overcome,when I look back to the hyper,insecure loony I took on. So I say hooray for velcro dogs.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I agree to a point..
> 
> But I think that a dog whom was born and spent the first year and a half in a shelter is unlikely to become a well balanced dog.
> 
> I think if you had unlimited resources then you could make things a lot better though


Very sweeping statement that. My friend has recently adopted a mongrel that was born, and lived in a shelter all its life. Its now 4. She's a smashing little dog, no temperament or other issues at all.

Goodvic, withouth meaning to be rude, half the time on here its not what you say, it is the way in which it is said. everyone has differences in opinions but you do come across as very "do as I say, not as I do". which is a shame, as your advice once you get down to it is very valid.

I myself have been party to some very snide, and patronising remarks of people on here, I just ignore them now. I have members' who's advice I value, who's posts I listen to and enjoy reading and others that get my back up but seriously, starting a thread about it?



Shadowrat said:


> My dog doesn't walk all over me, and I think I do fab with him as a first time owner who got a 'hard' breed, and a high drive individual within that breed!


ANY first dog is going to be a challenge if you ask me Shadowrat. I don't believe there is such a thing as an ideal first dog. They all have their quirks. My first dog is a JRT x Westie. He's been brilliant!

But if it makes you feel any better, my dogs walk all over me... metaphorically and literaly!! I give in when they want to come on the couch, give in when they want cuddles...let them get away with murder. But the moment the cross the line, boy they know about it. everyone compliments me though on how well behaved they are in public, so must be doing something right.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> ANY first dog is going to be a challenge if you ask me Shadowrat. I don't believe there is such a thing as an ideal first dog. They all have their quirks. My first dog is a JRT x Westie. He's been brilliant!


I've always personally thought this, too.
I don't buy into 'not a good breed for the first time owner' thing at all. You can't judge someone's suitability for a dog on that one thing. There are many people who have had dogs for _years_ who couldn't cope with mine, and there are dogs of some supposedly 'easier' breeds that I see having issue Dres has never had.
Dogs are individuals, and even if you do get a supposedly 'easy breed' you can't guarantee you'll get an easy individual within that breed!

Labs are often seen as 'the idea first time dog' but I've read about no end of labs who are.....difficult.

There are certain people I wouldn't recommend a dog like dresden to, in a million years, but it has nothing to do with their dog owning experience and more to do with that person's personality (ny brother, for instance, faaaaar too soft for a dog like Dresden, I don't think he even knows how to use a firm tone of voice, he's so passive and mellow, and Dresden absolutely knows it!)

Again, with your dog, most wouldn't recommend a JRT, or their crosses, as a good first time dog, someone even told me they were one of the hardest breeds! But clearly you've done fine!

I do know some people who have had dogs since they were kids, and their behaviour toward the dogs is shocking (don't know the first thing about training, rarely walk them etc) and those who have their first dog and are going above and beyond. 
My breeder was well aware I'd never owned a dog before, I made no bones about that. And he was perfectly happy upon meeting me that I'd be fine. 
And we will be


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

blossom21 said:


> Im not getting into the fray as I didnt read the original posting, but I will say this.Bramble is a velcro dog and I dont think for one single second he is calling the shots in this house or with me. I can explain this behaviour without a shadow of doubt, I adopted this gorgeous little man who in his previous home although loved was walked infrequently, was left 6-8 hours a day with nothing for company. I know he has built perhaps to strong a bond with me and likes to shadow me around the house, but am I surprised,no not in the least and I dont mind up to a point. I just see it as him saying please dont leave me, my OH is retired and I work part time and yet still he cant grasp that there will always be someone here for him. Slooooooooowly he is improving with the shadowing,I always say he's a work in progress bless him. A load of other issues he had we have gradually overcome,when I look back to the hyper,insecure loony I took on. So I say hooray for velcro dogs.


I have absolutely no idea what this is all about, but I must say that both mine are velcro dogs because they are both spoilt rotten! Ferdie won't let me out of his sight to the point that having been so very ill this week he hasn't been out because nobody else can walk him. He simply refuses to go. Diva follows me about and is always wanting a fuss.

So it can work both ways, no affection or too much will produce a velcro dog. Who cares?

Goodvic, I don't know what has happened but I am sure you do your best for your dogs and that your opinions are just as valid as everyone else's.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lol, I've found that no breed is right for a first time owner. Doesn't seem to matter whether it's a lab, a husky, a dobe or what you'll find someone saying they're not suitable for first time owners. Personally I think any breed can be right for a first dog with the right owner, let's face it, owning say a cavalier is hardly going to prepare you for owning say a working line malinois is it?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

When I rehomed Dex I bought him two lovely, ceramic matching food and water bowls, black with white writing on them saying: *'THE BOSS'.*

Had I known Dex could read, I might not have got them 

We all adore our dogs, we all do our very best for them. Some of us have slightly more...._challenging_  dogs than others.

But we all - no matter how much we disagree nor how bitterly we disagree - love our doggies 

Right, that's me trying to sprinkle a bit of xmas spirit over this thread


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

The first dog that I bought as opposed to the dog my parents got, was an Irish Setter which some might say is not an ideal first dog. He took a lot of training and exercise, but was a marvellous dog and I learnt a lot for him. A friend got a Golden Retriever as her first dog, a good first dog, but she was a difficult soul and ran rings round my friend, so much so that she nearly sent her back to the breeders by the time she was a year old. Luckily she persevered and worked hard with her and she turned into a lovely dog, but my friend never forgot that first year and has decided not to get another dog.
Any dog can be a right pain in the neck whatever the breed and I guess it's wise to be at least aware of the kind of dog you are taking on in relation to its type. If you know from the start that terrier types are wilful and tricky to deal with then at least you are well on the way to dealing with it. 
My neighbour has a lurcher type that is rough collie/greyhound on both parents. I would have thought by the breeds involved that this could be a hyper type of dog always chasing things, yet she is a quiet gentle soul that is incredibly obedient.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Lol, I've found that no breed is right for a first time owner. Doesn't seem to matter whether it's a lab, a husky, a dobe or what you'll find someone saying they're not suitable for first time owners. Personally I think any breed can be right for a first dog with the right owner, let's face it, owning say a cavalier is hardly going to prepare you for owning say a working line malinois is it?


You are right there. Unfortunately, someone buying a puppy for the first time will too often be attracted to its looks and never look farther than that.

It is also true that some people can cope with most dogs whereas others can't cope with any. I have heard lots of people telling me that they know someone who had a newfie but they couldn't cope, and I am thinking: well, if you can't cope with a newfie, perhaps you can't cope with anything.

But then those first few months are critical and if you miss out there, you could have a giant nightmare on your hands.

If anyone asks me what is a good dog for a first time owner, I would nearly always say Golden retriever, because to me they are just like an undersized newfie with less fur.


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## Ninedogs (Sep 15, 2012)

Hi After reading your post, I would like to say that I admire you for taking on these dogs. Try not to let other people's opinion upset you. Keep trying with the training and do not feel that you are failing because of some else's views. There are lots of methods for training out there try a different approach.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

My first dog....:001_wub:
was a rehome
She was the best dog I ever had. 
Go for the dog of your dreams.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> My first dog....:001_wub:
> was a rehome
> She was the best dog I ever had.
> Go for the dog of your dreams.


What an amazing photo!


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> So instead of having dogs who would be stroked by strangers, you 'gave them the confidence' to bite strangers instead? I don't quite understand.


When describing how dogs react to fearful or worrying stimuli, most people refer to simply the 'Fight or Flight' response options.

More recently, many of the world's greatest behaviourists now suggest that this is perhaps a little basic and limited and that it would perhaps be best to viewa fearful dog's options as 'the four Fs':

Fight, Flight, Fiddle and Freeze.

Every individual 'special needs' dog case will have their own triggers and thresholds that dictate which response is produced to any given trigger. Other factors such as whether a combination of triggers are present and contextualization are important.

From a behavioural science point of view, what the OP says about dogs "getting the confidence" to make unfavourable decisions, may actually make sense.

In the context supplied...
Two very stressed dogs, NEW to an environment, still familiarizing themselves with this new environment and likely still going through the process of forming solid attachments with their human companions (LOTs of uncertainty in all areas)... they are then presented with proximity and contact/interaction with strangers. 
Aggression/reactivity in evolutionary terms is a risky behaviour because whenever you start a 'fight' there is always a risk you may not win (thus ending up injured and potentially leading to death or otherwise inability to fend for self/feed etc). 
When a dog is new to an environment and under stress in multiple ways due to unfamiliarity, they are less likely to use aggression/reactivity because it's not worth the risk. Surviving the acute stress (commonly through either freeze or fiddle responses) is the priority. 
It's a common story for rescue dogs to be relatively unproblematic for the first period in their new home and for problem behaviours to begin to surface as the dog begins to feel more familiar in their surroundings and (we assume- since we cannot know as to what level they are cognitively aware of why they make the decisions they do) feels that being more proactive may be worth the risk (less risk attached for the dog to use such methods now than there would have been previously).



ETA: Haven't read the original thread, so not making any comments on that. But merely wanted to say that from a behaviour POV it IS possible for severely shut down fearful dogs, to learn (as they become familiar with surroundings and there are a few less unpredictables in their lives) to use reactivity and/or aggression to deal with problematic situations (for them). 
Nothing to do with them being dominant or needing a strong alpha pack leader blah blah blah... just to do with them being fearful dogs reacting to stimuli and needing someone to look out for them and change or manage the situation or intensity of interaction so that they don't have to act that way.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> Because I dared to voice my own opinion regarding Shadowrat's issue with her own dog, I thought I would explain my situation because it seems as "how dare I offer my opinion when my own dogs are not perfect"..
> 
> Max was born in a shelter in Greece. He spent a year in the shelter, 6 months in UK quarantine and 4 further months in a UK kennel.
> 
> ...


Dunno what happened! can only assume the keyboard warriers have been on the rampage but yep sure you DO you say exactly what you want! It is afterall a public forum!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> If only people with 'perfect' dogs can reply or give their opinion then this will be one very quiet forum!!!


Aint that the truth!


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

i sometimes think that its not all to do with the dogs beginning that effects behaviour, my dog is fearful agressive and has to wear a muzzle when i have visitors because if he doesn't he will bite them, he also tries to bite certain people when out on walks. the people that blitzen knows on the other hand are loved to pieces by him
my dog wasn't rescued i had him as a pup, his problems started at the age of 6 months and he was well socialised
i have given up trying to find reasons why he turned out the way he has and now i just concentrate on keeping both him and other people safe


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Thanks, I have taken it very personally though x


Try not to, I've a few on here that I know will never agree with some things I post - doesn't mean I won't post my opion though - I've just as much right as anyone else even if all my six ain't perfect! Very easy for people with one dog to cope with to cast the judgemental stone to others with a substantial pack. No comparison as far as I'm concerned but they still have a right to reply - just as you do!



goodvic2 said:


> And you are missing the point...
> 
> Not all dogs can be "trained". You cannot always override their start in life, whatever you try.
> Doesn't mean my opinion is wrong because I chose to take 2 dogs on with their history..
> There are many more people on this forum who only use positive methods and have problems with their dogs...


Oh if you believe all dogs can be trained it just shows nativity and there's plenty of that on this forum, lol! We all live and learn from our own dogs and experiences, we can say what we may do but we are mostly judging by our own methods - of which some don't work anyway. All dogs are sooo different even within the same breed/family - much the same as us and our relatives.

I know who will judge my posts and I either use 'ignore' or just skip their posts. Fed up with bitching but all forums have some members who love a bit of immaturity - just ignore it!

My dogs ain't perfect by any means, neither am I as an owner but that's what makes this forum interesting - it's called diversity!


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