# Do you think cats should be allowed to roam?



## thedogsmother (Aug 28, 2008)

Just curious as to what feeling on this subject is, I will add a poll if I can remember how to do one.


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## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

no cos they dig holes in peoples gardens and sh.t in them


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## Space Chick (Dec 10, 2011)

I have voted "I have no feeling either way" as whilst I allow my cats to roam, it's only because of where we live. If I lived near a busy road or in a dodgy area then I wouldn't.

Personally, whilst I like that my cats have freedom, I completely respect those that have decided to keep their cats indoors... And if my situation was different I would feel the same too.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

No! When at the vets today with one of our cats a distraught lady came in carrying her bloody cat that had been attacked by a dog. The poor poor cat looked as though it had been through the wars. Just sort of brings it home to you that even if you don't live near a busy road, there are other ways of harm out there.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I'm not sure how to vote as when we eventually live on our 22 acre farm rolleyes: - maybe one day) I would allow some to roam and be vermin control - however, in general I think it is more responsible for the general owner to not let their cats roam.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Space Chick said:


> I have voted "I have no feeling either way" as whilst I allow my cats to roam, it's only because of where we live. If I lived near a busy road or in a dodgy area then I wouldn't.
> 
> Personally, whilst I like that my cats have freedom, I completely respect those that have decided to keep their cats indoors... And if my situation was different I would feel the same too.


I voted the same and for the same reason.

I also respect owners who choose to keep their cats as innies


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

spid said:


> I'm not sure how to vote as when we eventually live on our 22 acre farm rolleyes: - maybe one day) I would allow some to roam and be vermin control - however, in general I think it is more responsible for the general owner to not let their cats roam.


But that's the farm I'm getting!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I think it depends on each circumstance & the cats. Both my cats are now outdoor although Basil literally goes afew paces from the door to sun bathe. Winnie has now turned in to a voracious hunter (only mice luckily) & lovs being out.

We have a large garden & a field out the back where she hunts (no immediate neighbours) so I don't worry too much. Yes, there is a risk but life is full of risks so you just have to weigh up the pros/cons & make a sensible decision.

Some cats are fine being indoor only (mine used to be) but equally some aren't - depends!


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

My interpretation of roam is to come and go freely and developing a territory.

My cats may go out into the garden under supervision, I don't consider this roaming. They don't go into other people's gardens at the moment (hope they don't) but if they did , I still wouldn't call this roaming. 

I realise I may be alone in this interpretation!


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## peter0 (Oct 4, 2011)

I voted yes but only if it's possible. If you live in an area which is ideal to let cats roam then yes and if not a cat run or indoors would be just as good


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## Mo1959 (Mar 31, 2012)

Down to personal circumstances I suppose, but a definite no from me.

I would be living on my nerves constantly from the minute she went out until she came back. I have no wish to live my life like that. As Hobbs mentioned, seeing your cat mangled by either a dog or a car doesn't bear thinking about.


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## nightkitten (Jun 15, 2012)

I voted yes.

The owner who lets their cat roam should consider the circumstances though as busy roads, neighbours etc.

You can not protect them from everything but come on, you allow your kids to go out although things can happen.

If you lived on a busy road you would guide your children until they are sensible enough to walk on their own. Cats will never be sensible enough.

But if you have the correct surroundings for a cat to be able to roam without too many dangers I think you should.


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## Lel (Mar 21, 2012)

I haven't responded to the poll itself because I don't really have a yes/no answer.

I don't really like the idea of cats "roaming" per se; mine goes out for about an hour in the morning and then stays in our garden or in the house the rest of the time. I know where he goes for the most part and I know that he doesn't go far at all. Also if I go and look for him he will come running towards me and follow me back to the house.

I would HATE the idea that he was toileting in someone else's garden and being a nuisance. For this reason we spent a long time making suitable areas in our flower beds for him to use (which we can then clean) and I know this is where he goes so I don't have to worry about him upsetting anyone.

He stays in at night and is quite happy. But I know that in the day if he gets bored without us here he can take himself out in the garden and just potter about as he likes.

I understand why some people keep their cats indoor or have enclosures or cat proof gardens and I'm sure these cats are all perfectly happy because their owners care enough to do it! And because my cat adjusted well to staying in at night time it's also clear that they will settle into an indoor routine.


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## Merenwenrago (Sep 5, 2010)

I voted "I have no feeling about it either way"

My cats do roam to my neighbours with no dogs but they enjoy my cats visiting and they love playing with them .


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Mines semi indoors - she'll stay in for the majority of the day and uses the litter tray but she seems to have her own little routine of always having a session outdoors when I come home from work/stables, even if its really coming down with rain. The only weather I've not seen her out in is snow. The reason I said Yes is because it depends on the area and how far the cat roams - mine doesn't go very far, and she doesn't go near the road as she's got plenty of back garden space either in mine or next doors, and she comes back in to use the litter tray so can't be doing it in next door's garden.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

It all depends on the circumstances and the cats.
Personally, I used to get cats that would never be happy as indoor only, because we live in a very quiet area where there is little chance of them coming to any harm.

However, I would feel happier if I could keep them in our own garden. But that would never be enough for my semi-feral girl, so I don't catproof my garden. Not as long as Tosca is alive and spending most of her time in the park.

But whenever a new cat goes out for the first time, I age a year, and if one of them goes missing, even for a few hours, because he or she doesn't feel the need to show themselves, I panic. So, yes, I would prefer a cat-proofed garden.

On the other hand, if the cat would be unhappy as an indoor, who am I to keep him in 'for his own good'..... The average life span of a wild cat living as a predator in its natural environment is about 4 to 5 years. So the majority of our house cats live to 3 times their 'natural' age. Should they live that long and be subdued and depressed, like Tosca was when I had to keep her indoors due to an injury for 3 months?

There are many sides to this argument, and I do not think there is one 'right' solution. It depends on too many variables, both in the cat's character and the circumstances.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

bordie said:


> no cos they dig holes in peoples gardens and sh.t in them


I have an agreement with my neighbour that if he finds cat poo in his garden, I'm more than happy to go clear it up.



Lunabuma said:


> My interpretation of roam is to come and go freely and developing a territory.
> 
> My cats may go out into the garden under supervision, I don't consider this roaming. They don't go into other people's gardens at the moment (hope they don't) but if they did , I still wouldn't call this roaming.
> 
> I realise I may be alone in this interpretation!


You're not alone 

Both of my boys go out and have access to a cat flap, but neither of them are territorial, they are both happy to allow other cats to come in to our garden.

Frank spends more time outside at the moment because of the lighter evenings, he is either in our back garden or our next door neighbours (I don't class this as roaming either) the same with Seb but he's never out for long, always popping in and out to let you know he's OK.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

I voted no, the reasons are many.I am responsible for the safety and welfare of Meeko,I cant do that if he is outside god knows where.
I also have a responsibility not to inflict my cats on my neighbours,I dont like cleaning cat sh*t out of flowerbeds so why should I expect my neighbours to.
Then there is the cruelty inflicted on the wildlife in the name of fun,I would hate to think I was responsible for my cat killing birds,mice ect.


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## broccoli (Jul 1, 2011)

Merenwenrago said:


> My cats do roam to my neighbours with no dogs but they enjoy my cats visiting and they love playing with them .


 same here

i voted yes because i dont like the idea of cats losing the 'right' in a legal sense - with dogs it was due to safety issues with humans (i think)

each cat/owner/situation is different i respect those who make different choices.

i share a garden and there are many cats & a dog (he grew up with a cat) we keep an eye on each others pets & its less stressful for them to know the person feeding them if one of us goes away

newton is the only one who everybody can name on sight  - he invades their houses  they all know they can flick water at him with no problem from me, only one has done so
the only family with kids dont have pets & the children love to play with newton and the dog.

as far as i know my cats only go into the garden behind mine.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

sarahecp said:


> Both of my boys go out and have access to a cat flap, but neither of them are territorial, they are both happy to allow other cats to come in to our garden.


Same here, we have dozens of cats in our neighbourhood, and the only ones really causing trouble are 2 entire toms. The rest tend to get on as one big happy family. Sometimes we will have a cat gathering in and around our garden or at our front door, and sometimes there will be 10 cats in the neighbours' garden.

They seem to invite their friends into their own garden. Mine even keep the microchip catflap open (with their tail) for their friends to follow them in.....


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## Ingrid25 (Oct 1, 2011)

I'm going to vote yes, as even though Leo isn't meant to be allowed out I don't know away of keeping him in! He doesn't exactly roam, only in our garden, under the house and to the neighbors backyards.
We live near a busy road, but don't get me wrong, if I EVER see Leo out on the road he is coming back in for good.
And he only goes out for maybe an hour or two a day, because we are out at work for 6 hours, he isn't allowed out at night or in the morning either.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

Cannot answer one way or the other- it depends on the circumstances.
If you live on a busy road and must have a cat then keep him in.
We live in a quiet country lane with little traffic and lots of fields around and we let ours roam.
I know there is still a danger but in these circumstances I am prepared to take a risk. 
My oldest two have made it to 15 and 17 without mishap.
Of the youngest two, now a year old I have to say one of them really seems more at home outside than in. It is difficult to describe but she seems to come alive outdoors, purrs a lot more, and is a fantastic hunter. I really think I would be depriving her of being herself if I were to confine her indoors.

I know some people don't like the idea of wildlife being caught and I hate wildlife being killed myself but this is a fact of life.
Where we live we have loads of mice and rats and rabbits and they do need to be controlled or we would be overrun.
Cats are carnivores and a mouse/rabbit is the perfect meal for a cat. Much is said about raw feeding on this forum and you cannot really better a cat catching and eating his own fresh prey.
The problems come with lots of people having mutiple cats in denseley populated areas and creating a totally unnatural situation.
I can see why people keep their cats in, but I do feel uncomfotable with the idea - I think the nature of cats is to explore and be ouitside and we are preventing them from doing this. It seems we are putting our desire to own cats above their needs but I realise that situation will never change.


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## ace85 (Aug 16, 2011)

I have said no, although mostly for personal reasons - there are a lot of dangers out there for a cat these days, and I would be unable to forgive myself if anything happened to any of mine. Unfortunately, I also have to consider the very real possibility that, if our cats roamed, someone might well try to steal them to make a quick few quid. Saw a Siamese roaming around near where I live recently - simply couldn't believe that someone had let him/her out


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## troublestrouble (Oct 19, 2011)

Being a dog person (who hasn't yet had kids or cats) i wouldn't feel comfortable letting a cat go off and do its own thing, i also live in London so its not practical but there's lots of cats round here which roam.... we've fallen in love with one which is why i read this for interest. i think id just be worrying all the time what it was up to.

Having dogs....a bit of cat poo in the garden doesn't bother me..cat poo, dog poo, fox poo it all adds to my day but i worry when cats walk across the fence and the girls go running out to bark at it that its not fair on the cat, what if it fell off and the dogs got to to it?! but then it is our fence and technically the cat is trespassing....i just don't like the idea oanyone getting hurt

it is reassuring to hear your varied responses though because i would have thought the idea of having an indoor/garden cat would have been taken badly

(we've really fallen in love with this cat....something i never thought id say)


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## Etienne (Dec 8, 2010)

The poll is too black and white
My cats go out but are never far from home and they still do their business in the litter trays.


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## zippie161 (Jan 21, 2012)

I voted yes but only if safe to do so - if you'd have asked me this question a few months ago before my mums poor George was sadly hit by a car then i would have simply said yes no questions asked.. however since then ive been terrified of letting barney out alone - so now he is supervised & am nearly finished building the giant cat proof run ive made for him and the new arrival 
Im hoping he'll be okay with just staying inside the run but as he's had freedom to go where he likes before he will probably still want to do that so will only be allowed to still whilst being supervised & allowed just out in the run when we dont want to be out there too. (he wont be allowed out in the run if we're not home though.)


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## Maerose (Jun 22, 2012)

I've always thought cats should be allowed to roam but have now lost too many cats to feel that I can continue to do this. We recently lost Bella, who was 2 years old, to the road and decided at that point that I had to change things. We have now cat-proofed our garden and feel much happier that Jasper, and the kittens we are getting in August, will be safer now they're confined to the garden.

We also have the problem that there is an intact tom living in the house behind ours and he was constantly coming into our garden and fighting with Jasper. I have noticed that Jasper is far calmer now and feel sure that some of this is because the other cat can't get in our garden anymore! Jasper has got very fussy and we've made sure that we play with him as much as possible to compensate for him not being able to roam.

I do think though that although this has worked for us it would not necessarily work for everyone - some cats need to have their freedom.


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## Midnight13 (Jun 20, 2012)

I have indoor men, but that's due to our long hair being adopted by us and having never been outside and he's 4/5, and the other has a handicap that means he has a blind side that would be disastrous on the roads.

I must say I'm leaning increasingly towards the indoor cat/cat garden/supervised outdoor play at the moment. I think maybe if I lived somewhere else it would be different but there are too many dangerous dogs, dangerous roads, joy riders, people taking cats to use in their dog fights  and all sorts around here!


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

I voted no because of losing my beloved Bruno to a car. Having said that, I used to let Misi out, but she never left the garden in her latter years. She used to sunbathe near the back door 
Cats are responsible for catching all manner of wildlife and that doesn't sit well with me. Cats aren't part of the natural ecosystem, so I don't think they should be free to roam and hunt at will. It's a shame because they are natural hunters. You just have to be creative when playing with them. When we "move to our house in the mountains" (arf, arf), I'm going to build a super-duper outdoor enclosure


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2012)

I have seen too much native wildlife killed. Sadly, I have 3 accomplished hunters, that were ferals. One is still wild, and would vanish and live on wildlife, in a second. In Oz, in the country, it is a very hard, hungry life. Females are starving and most of their kittens die of starvation or illness. They are pregnant or nursing, all through the kitten season. It is heartbreaking.They can still be run over on farms, with cars doing 100kms ph on dirt roads. Farmers let them breed, when there are mice plagues, then lay out poison, later. Even the suggestion of desexing as a kindness, a responsibility to native wildlife, is to be stared at, as tho mad.

ALL MY DOGS AND CATS ARE DESEXED. I also desex other peoples, if I can afford them and they let me. My old cat is now between 15 and death. Maybe 17. I now let him out during the day. It is very rare he gets a bird, but he still catches mice, still carries them in, squalling to get my attention, then taking off, as I go after him. Sometimes I save them, usually it is too late. In principle, I must try. He is so old and sleeps so much more and spends more and more time on my bed, and the back door has to be open, all day, for the dogs.

The kittens, now approaching 1, only have access to the enclosure built at the end of my verandah. It is about 25 ft X 5 ft X 7 ft. It is sheltered, but half the day, they can sunbake. As 30ish wild birds will fly to me and eat from my hand, at the front door, the master hunter kittens are entertained by running up the mesh, to try to kill. On a summer night, with the light on, they spend 2 hours plus, leaping up to catch moths, flying to the light. after that, they sleep very well. I hear irregular thumps, for 2 hours... They are SO-OO happy killing. Thankfully, they have never seen high 5s, or I'd be hearing slaps of joy, all through my tv programmes.

When I have money, I want to build an enclosure at least 30 ftX 30 ft X 6 ft.

DON'T FORGET, if you have cats with lots of white on ears, noses, around eyes, if they are in sun for the worst part of the day, 10 am to 3 pm, they are likely to end up middleaged, with ears trimmed off, to control reoccurring skin cancers, and possibly, with brownish, scabby, bleeding skin cancers, around eyes and nose. This is seen too often, by me, and it was all preventable.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I want to say yes but I also want to say no...

Keeping my cats in now after free outdoor access for months would make them miserable. I wouldnt do it now as we live in a suitable area and everybody seems to be a cat person and have a cat. 

If I could I would catproof my garden and I will look into that when we buy a house. That way they can still have outside access but they shouldnt be able to escape from the garden.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

I have voted No even though Merson does currently have roaming rights.

However, his outdoor time is strictly monitored and is becoming more rare due to the crappy weather we've been having. Also, now that he's getting older, his trips are becoming shorter and he's spending more time indoors even when the back door is open.

We are working on getting the garden into a cat-proofable state (again, if it stopped raining we'd be much further along in the process..... ) and I am hoping that by the time it happens, he won't be too fussed about having his territory drastically reduced in size. 

Tough sh!t if he is though!!!!


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## rizz (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm not sure how to vote on this, my mum lets her cats out and lives in a nice area, I live in a nice area except I live by a train station and have seen badgers in my area so letting my cats out now is a no! Once I've bought my house (hopefully next year or early the year after) I may let them out


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

I´ve voted no, I would only allow Merlin out in a cat safe garden. I´m tired of coming to the forum and reading about cats in life and death situations because they are let out. I feel that they suffer because they are given so much liberty and we can´t protect them. I woudn´t forgive myself if I had that roam free mentality and something happened to Merlin.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Space Chick said:


> > If I lived near a busy road or in a dodgy area then I wouldn't.
> 
> 
> Same here. If I lived 'near a busy road or in a dodgy area' then I wouldn't have cat companions at all.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

rizz said:


> > have seen badgers in my area so letting my cats out now is a no!
> 
> 
> Badgers are no threat to cats. There are no records of a badger attacking a cat.
> ...


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## skip (Sep 25, 2011)

I have voted no because of the safety issues to both cats and also humans i.e car crashes,other cats attacking each other etc,i also think its very annoying when cats dig in gardens and bury their poop(i know they're only being clean),i have had neighbours cats wander in to my house before i had wobsi when i used to leave my door open,now thats fine i love cats but i dont really want strange cats sitting on my kitchen benches where i have to prepare food,or if they drop off any little hitch-hikers along the way  mind i know hitch hikers can hop in the door or a shoe just the same but you know what i mean lol


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Lel said:


> > I would HATE the idea that he was toileting in someone else's garden and being a nuisance. For this reason we spent a long time making suitable areas in our flower beds for him to use (which we can then clean) and I know this is where he goes so I don't have to worry about him upsetting anyone.
> 
> 
> Good for you!:thumbup1: Very pleased to hear it!
> ...


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## maisiecat (Jul 27, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Space Chick said:
> 
> 
> > Same here. If I lived 'near a busy road or in a dodgy area' then I wouldn't have cat companions at all.
> ...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

scatchy said:


> > I can see why people keep their cats in, but I do feel uncomfotable with the idea - *I think the nature of cats is to explore and be outside and we are preventing them from doing this.* It seems we are putting our desire to own cats above their needs but I realise that situation will never change.
> 
> 
> Well said Scatchy! :thumbup1::thumbup1:


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

maisiecat said:


> chillminx said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly it doesn't matter what kind of area you live in, people drive around looking for cats to steal, people deliberately run over cats in the road, or accidentally hit them, and neighbours still entice them in and keep them.There is anti-freeze and brake fluid, lily pollen, garden sheds being locked up for weeks with cats inside, shotgun pellets........
> ...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

chillminx said:


> maisiecat said:
> 
> 
> > If we are guardians of outdoor cats then we behave responsibly and do all we can to minimise the risks to their safety and health e.g. most of us deliberately choose to live away from busy roads, or areas of high density human population, so that we can have cat companions without selfishly putting their lives at great risk.
> ...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I voted No they shouldnt be allowed to roam. 

they are doing untold damage to our wildlife and each time theyre allowed out they are at risk of getting, lost,injured or killed, have you seen the number of threads on this forum about cats that have been killed or injured on the roads?? its truely shocking.... i feel so sorry for cats whos owners allow them to roam.


.


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## Melba (Feb 19, 2012)

Like has been said, this is not a black and white choice for most cat owners and I would like to think the people who have chosen to keep their cats inside have made an evaluated decision in doing so. 
If the cat is old/disabled/not outdoor savvy then absolutely they should be kept indoors or in a cat proofed garden.

If you live in a rural area and you're not worried about the wild life, cars, crazy people, tom cats, poison, disease and feel the risks are considerable for your cat to be outside then great!

Personally, I do feel my kittens, when they are older, should be allowed outside. But I live in London, although in a very nice area where the traffic is low and there is a ecological park with lots of wildlife nearby, there are still cars parked everywhere and there are a lot of kids and people I think would try and feed my cats. Plus they are pedigree and unique looking which Im sure an opportunist would take advantage of. Therefore the best I can do is build an enclosure (my fence is too low to cat proof - although I'm going to ask the council about an extension on it) and teach them how to use the harness. That way they will hopefully get the outdoor enrichment I would like to provide. 

I know people have been comparing this to letting your kids go outside, but you can't teach a cat not to walk into traffic or drink from puddles on the ground. It's just not a fair argument.

I guess my answer is yes and no.


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## Alfride (May 19, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> I voted No they shouldnt be allowed to roam.
> 
> they are doing untold damage to our wildlife and each time theyre allowed out they are at risk of getting, lost,injured or killed, have you seen the number of threads on this forum about cats that have been killed or injured on the roads?? its truely shocking.... i feel so sorry for cats whos owners allow them to roam.
> 
> .


Please, all living creatures have an impact on this planet  I believe the species that do the most damage is actually man  so if you want to save the wild life/biodiversity I suggest you start by reducing your own impact. Or maybe you are already doing that  living in an eco-house eating a vegan diet. And most importantly not producing any children!

And Rosie doesn't need your sympathy, thank you! You should see how happy she is climbing trees in her forest, killing and eating mice! Freedom is life!


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Absolutely not.

There are SO MANY reasons why they shouldn't. I think if we genuinely believe that cats are meant to roam then why are we keeping them as pets if it does not suit them? Modern life is too dangerous for cats to be loose unless you accept that their lifespan will be reduced down to on average 2 years.

A conversation I overheard at work also again proved why I am so against cats being allowed to roam when one colleague asked loudly how she can "get rid" of a cat that constantly poos in her garden to which one person said "kill it, it is vermin itself if it is doing that" & another said "just use a BB gun, it will hurt it but not kill it"!!!! As much as I love cats, not everyone does & that's fine - so why subject the worst things about your cat (killing wildlife & pooing) on others? Why risk strangers shooting or attaching fireworks to your cat's tail?

Dogs were once expected to roam many decades ago but that stopped as the average dog owner became more responsible. Why have cat owners not followed suit?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

messyhearts said:


> > Dogs were once expected to roam many decades ago but that stopped as the average dog owner became more responsible. Why have cat owners not followed suit?
> 
> 
> Because the law obliges dog owners to keep them under control at all times.
> ...


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## Midnight13 (Jun 20, 2012)

messyhearts said:


> Absolutely not.
> 
> one person said "kill it, it is vermin itself if it is doing that" & another said "just use a BB gun, it will hurt it but not kill it"!!!!


My Polly cat I had as a child came home once peppered with pellets


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> chillminx said:
> 
> 
> > but you might not need to catproof the garden if you find your cat is 'accident prone'
> ...


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## Midnight13 (Jun 20, 2012)

I think I was actually smart (for once! Give me a medal!) specifically choosing cats that could only ever be indoor. It totally eradicates the worry.

I do feel that cats should be able to explore - but all mine I've had before these two have met pretty horrible ends, or had horrific accidents that have maimed them. So I think if you can have them with a cat proofed garden, that's the ideal.

My mama-cat who taught me how to go to the potty died in the path of a speeding car at the age of 5, in front of my mum, who would never get a tabby cat again as it pained her so much. Her sister cat died when she was hit by a bus at the age of only one (we lived on the outskirts of Skipton, hardly inner city!). My Polly cat was hit by cars twice, she had a crumpled misshapen ribcage in the end, but was such an outdoors pusscat we couldn't just shut her in, (and I was too young to have a say!) as I said she was shot with an air-rifle (or similar), attacked by other cats and dogs, once she was nearly microwaved by a sadistic little **** but was saved by his mum returning home (she lived inside of her own accord after that)... it was nail biting waiting up for her at night.

My Flinders was lucky (!!!) because she got cancer on her back right hand side paw at a young age, and had to have her leg removed, hence making her an indoor cat - she lived a happy 17 year long life and it taught me a valuable lesson.


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## smiler84 (Feb 4, 2012)

for me it depends on circumstances. if i lived in a quiet enough area i'd let mine out without a second though. sure there are risks, but i do think that the majority of cats would prefer to have the option to go out. 

i personally wouldn't have chosen to have a cat in my current flat, as it's by a busy road. but seeing as i was adopted by an abandoned kitten i've not had much choice in having an indoor cat. ideally i'd love for him to be able to go out and hunt - i know he'd love it! but i'm happy that he's still able to live a stimulating life indoors, and i put a lot of effort into keeping his mind and body moving. 

i just think it's down to personal circumstances, preference and the individual cats personality!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

messyhearts said:


> > Modern life is too dangerous for cats to be loose unless you accept that their lifespan will be reduced down to on average 2 years.
> 
> 
> Where are you getting your statistics from? Can you give me the source please? I have never heard such a thing!
> ...


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

My honest, gut feeling is yes, they should. I've always been very pro roaming because I do believe it's the best way for a cat to exhibit their natural behaviours and enjoy themselves. I think the only exception is when there's a KNOWN danger, like a busy road.

My family were recently forced to move house, and the new place is very rural but the lane does get quite busy. For that reason, the cats have now been kept inside for 4 months. They haven't been as bad as I expected, but I can only assume it's because this house is unfamiliar, because if we tried to keep them inside in the old house they'd become really distressed. They do cry at the windows and will always escape out of an open door though, which is quite hard to live with when you're used to giving them what they want.

Now, we're due to move again in a couple of months and it's a relocation, so while the house was only considered because it was pet friendly and not on a busy road we don't know the area perfectly. The new house sits on a lane and providing the traffic isn't too busy/ fast I would love to let the cats outside to roam again. If that wasn't possible, which like I say would be a real shame because we only considered cat friendly locations, then I would want the garden fenced in for them. I've hated not being able to open windows daily to air the house here, and definitely couldn't live like that long term. The new house is again rural, and there's nothing better than seeing your cat out enjoying themselves in the field.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

messyhearts said:


> Absolutely not.
> 
> There are SO MANY reasons why they shouldn't. I think if we genuinely believe that cats are meant to roam then why are we keeping them as pets if it does not suit them? Modern life is too dangerous for cats to be loose unless you accept that their lifespan will be reduced down to on average 2 years.


The reason cats became domesticated in the first place was because of their ability to catch and kill small rodents.
Where I live in a rural area, some animals will always be controlled. If my cats were not catching rats/rabbits, a man with a gun/ferrets/terriers would be (and probably is anyway).
Cats are meant to eat rodents, if you find the idea so appalling why keep cats.

I beleive anyone who keeps a pet of any kind should do their best to minimise the impact on others but our actions will always effect others.
Personally I find noise nuisance far more annoying and intrusive than a bit of pooh in the garden, particularly dogs barking incessantly.
We all need to be a bit more tolerant on the one hand and more considerate on the other hand.

I agree with Chillminx that we should make a risk assesment and decide if the pros outweigh the cons and decide accordingly if we wish our cats to roam.
I too beleive quality of life is important. 
It seems some people wish to have total control over their cats and everything they do , where they go, what they eat, who they have to live with,(other cats) which is sad really. Surely all creatures should have some autonomy.


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## nicolaa123 (Mar 30, 2012)

its a tough one and I respect the choices made by all cat owners and I do think it comes down to the cat and the area where living.

As for wildlife you can minimize this by keeping your cat in at crucial times like dusk and dawn, also when there are young about by keeping your cat in.

Mine for the majority of the time is kept in, but he likes to go out and i let him in the evening when i am home, or during the day if i am home. He never stays out over night and never has. 

As for roaming, he goes in my garden, next doors and probably the one after that, i am lucky there are a few cat owners so issue of cat poo has not really come up, plus i have a lot of hedgehogs in the garden so am very used to shovelling poo!

I can't really decide on a poll answer, I let my cat out but its when I determine rather than roam free and if he decided that the indoors life was enough for him that would be fine too!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Midnight13 said:


> > I think I was actually smart (for once! Give me a medal!) specifically choosing cats that could only ever be indoor. It totally eradicates the worry.
> 
> 
> I agree with you There are cases where it is not only justfiable to keep a cat indoors, (preferably with an outdoor run), but would be irresponsible to let them out to roam.
> ...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

scatchy said:


> > Surely all creatures should have some autonomy.
> 
> 
> This for me is the crux of the matter. I should hate to have cats I had to keep locked up like prisoners, or control their lives totally as though they were my slaves. I would find it very depressing.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

I suppose if you have lost a cat on the road it may influence your thinking but I am still unhappy with the idea of cats having no freedom. 
If I could not let my cat out because of the danger I would only keep a cat that had to be keptin because of a disability.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I can see it from both sides- I was raised with both indoor only cats when we lived in the Middle East & also semi feral ones that lived in the outbuildings in the UK.
My current cats have access to outdoors during the day (we live in a quiet area & there are a lot of cat owners here), but I am becoming more & more concerned about their safety & am thinking about how I can secure the garden so they can still enjoy it. I like a lot of the options, although at the moment the cost is prohibitive for us


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Alfride said:


> Please, all living creatures have an impact on this planet  I believe the species that do the most damage is actually man  so if you want to save the wild life/biodiversity I suggest you start by reducing your own impact. Or maybe you are already doing that  living in an eco-house eating a vegan diet. And most importantly not producing any children!
> 
> And Rosie doesn't need your sympathy, thank you! You should see how happy she is climbing trees in her forest, killing and eating mice! Freedom is life!


No actually thats not true, wild animals are part of ecosystems...where as domestic animals, such as cats, arnt! & like humans they are responsible for the extinction of many species!

but yes i agree man certainly does the most damage to our environment... and the domestic cat is here because of man and are allowed to roam free because us...so ultimately that they are impacting on wildlife is all down to man.,,surely cat owners should take responsibility for their animals and do everything they can to minimise the risk they pose?

well i cant help the way i feel, im sorry for any cat thats allowed to stray...just as i would be sorry for a dog....freedom can also be death, and thats why i believe ALL pets should be supervised


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

chillminx said:


> messyhearts said:
> 
> 
> > Where are you getting your statistics from? Can you give me the source please? I have never heard such a thing!
> ...


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

chillminx said:


> *Because the law obliges dog owners to keep them under control at all times.
> The law was changed to protect mankind from being attacked or bitten by stray/free roaming dogs*.
> 
> Dogs are pack animals who are hardwired to accept what the leader of the pack (the human in this case) dictates. Cats are not pack animals, they are independant creatures who are hardwired to hunt and explore.


No law stopped me opening the door and allowing my dogs to free roam,common sense did.
The way I see this is that by opening the door and allowing any animal to walk off unsupervised is to take an unnecessary risk with their welfare,but as I have said before this is the way I see *my * responsibility towards my animals,others may and do have different thoughts.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

An out of touch law doesn't mean it is right. 

We can see that the law isn't always right with the dog breed bans in place currently.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> No law stopped me opening the door and allowing my dogs to free roam,common sense did.


As it did (and does) for many a responsible dog owner. The less responsible are generally coerced into taking the same sensible action because the law makes them responsible for the actions of their dogs. There are those cat owners who believe they are completely exempt because there are no cat specific laws. This doesn't mean they couldn't be caught out with a claim against them though for less specific negligence or nuisance.

The idea that any domestic pet cat is living a 'natural' life because the owner doesn't wish to contain it in any way is frankly deluded. If that's the sort of companion animal anyone wants why on earth don't they just claim they 'own' the rats or foxes we all live close to these days.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Should cats be allowed to roam? Nope, not without supervision at least. Cats can become a nuisance when allowed to run around loose in neighborhoods. I've had cats that aren't mine use my plant containers as toilets and kill my flowers. Cat owners should be fined for allowing their cats to roam around outside without supervision, the same way dog owners are.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> No actually thats not true, wild animals are part of ecosystems...where as domestic animals, such as cats, arnt! & like humans they are responsible for the extinction of many species!
> 
> but yes i agree man certainly does the most damage to our environment... and the domestic cat is here because of man and are allowed to roam free because us...so ultimately that they are impacting on wildlife is all down to man.,,surely cat owners should take responsibility for their animals and do everything they can to minimise the risk they pose?
> 
> well i cant help the way i feel, im sorry for any cat thats allowed to stray...just as i would be sorry for a dog....freedom can also be death, and thats why i believe ALL pets should be supervised


I cannot help thinking this is an over simplification.
I don't agree that cats are responsible for the extinction of many species - who says and how many?
Everything we do has a huge impact on our environment and wildlife but much of that must be down to the totally out of control human population and our habits.
We (not me) but people in general eat meat and feed it to our pets. To produce it whole ecosystems are destroyed so the land can be farmed.
When the wildlife tries to take advantage of the farmed crops they are deemed pests and are "controlled."
People do far more harm than free roaming cats.
Allowing our cats to roam is not the same as allowing them to stray, & why you should feel sorry for a cat that is allowed some freedom & allowed to follow its natural instincts I cannot understand.
Surely for most people their freedom is their most prized possesion that is why we punish people by taking their freedom away. 
Just may be our pets feel the same way.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

What about all other pets we remove freedom from?

If that is the biggest factor then maybe keeping a pet at all is not appropriate.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> we punish people by taking their freedom away.
> Just may be our pets feel the same way.


I take you are therefore vehemently opposed to anyone keeping hamsters, gerbils, guinea pigs or goldfish, dogs or horses.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Oh yes, and lord forbid anyone should contain their child safely in their own back garden.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

I voted yes. Tiger is allowed in and out at any time (we do try to call him in at night, sometimes works, he does have a cat flap now) and we live on a reasonably busy 40 road, but we also have a field behind us, and he is never seen out the front, always in the back.
He has a chunk out of his ear from a cat fight and we lost him for 3 days once(shut in a shed over bank holiday we think!) but in 13 1/2 years that isnt bad is it!

I understand why people have indoor cats, but for me, if I am to have a cat, it would have to be allowed to go out and about.

*Heidi*


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## Pheebs (Jun 8, 2011)

I kept Pheebs in until she was 12 months. Now she is allowed out, but only when we are home and never at night. It seems to work well as she doesn't go far and always comes when I call her. 

We were away at relatives for a couple of weeks and took Pheebs with us (she has been going there since she was a kitten, but this was the first time since we started letting her out). We didn't let her out for those two weeks and she actually seemed to get a bit depressed and went off her food.


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

bordie said:


> no cos they dig holes in peoples gardens and sh.t in them


all the more reason to keep them either indoors or with a run of a pen then they wont **** in other peoples gardens will they?


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## nicolaa123 (Mar 30, 2012)

I can understand points put forward from both sides, however its down to personal choice really. I do think tho the biggest thing to tackle is the number of un-neutered animals, especially cats allowed out.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

chillminx said:


> messyhearts said:
> 
> 
> > Because the law obliges dog owners to keep them under control at all times.
> ...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

scatchy said:


> I cannot help thinking this is an over simplification.
> I don't agree that cats are responsible for the extinction of many species - who says and how many?
> Everything we do has a huge impact on our environment and wildlife but much of that must be down to the totally out of control human population and our habits.
> We (not me) but people in general eat meat and feed it to our pets. To produce it whole ecosystems are destroyed so the land can be farmed.
> ...


Domestic cats are considered primarily responsible for the extinction of 8 island
bird species, including Stephens Island Wren, Chatham Island Fernbird, and Auckland Island Merganser, and the eradication of 41 bird species from New Zealand islands *alone*.

http://wildbirdfund.com/wp-content/uploads/predation.pdf

because of the pressure on our environment from all the different areas you mentioned..shouldnt we then be doing anything and everything we possibly can to aleviate some of that pressure by trying to keep our pets in check??

oh theres no doubt in my mind that my dogs would Love their freedom if they were offered it lol, but i am responsible for their safety not them...and i care very much about wildlife, so they will never have unsupervised freedom, they will never even be allowed off lead unless its somewhere secure....amazingly despite their lack of freedom they are still extremely happy and fulfilled dogs....not to mention safe

.


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## Alfride (May 19, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> No actually thats not true, wild animals are part of ecosystems...where as domestic animals, such as cats, arnt! & like humans they are responsible for the extinction of many species!
> 
> but yes i agree man certainly does the most damage to our environment... and the domestic cat is here because of man and are allowed to roam free because us...so ultimately that they are impacting on wildlife is all down to man.,,surely cat owners should take responsibility for their animals and do everything they can to minimise the risk they pose?
> 
> well i cant help the way i feel, im sorry for any cat thats allowed to stray...just as i would be sorry for a dog....freedom can also be death, and thats why i believe ALL pets should be supervised


First, what is not true?

Second, could you please provide me with a source for your definition of ecosystems?

I have always been taught that we are all part of the ecosystems  people, domesticated animals, wild animals, plants, insects etc. I have never heard that you exclude humans and domesticated animals from the ecosystems.

Third, you say that cat owners should take responsibility for their cats  of course they should! But you can take responsibility for your cat without keeping your cat in a prison, depriving your cat of its basic needs (fresh air, sunshine, nature, exercise etc.). It is just plain cruel to lock up a cat that has a strong desire to go out. Should the cats of today pay for what humans did thousands of years ago, when they decided to domesticate them?

Cats are not allowed to kill but humans are? Traditional farming, animal factories and industries are a far greater threat to our ecosystems. Going after domesticated cats that kill a few mice and birds is just hilarious. Get things in proportion! If you are that concerned for the wild life start with yourself! What are you doing to minimise your own impact? There are plenty of things you can do to minimise your impact that does not involve torturing an animal by keeping it in prison.

You seem to have a vendetta against cats  where is the scientific evidence that cats with homes, where they are well-fed every day, cause extinction? We are not talking about wild cats here but socialised cats with homes? In my area every third house has a cat  and yes they all go out. We have not had any cases of extinction.

Prison can also be death. Indoor cats are bored, get depressed, give up on life. They don't get enough exercise, which causes obesity that can result in all kinds of devastating deceases. Well, I also can't help the way I feel  keeping a cat in prison that has a strong desire to go out is cruel. Not every thing in life should be controlled.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

My neighbor has cats but they're only outdoors when she is outside to watch them. 

I personally think people are nuts allowing their cats to run loose. Here, your legally allowed to shoot any cat that comes onto your property. If you have crazy neighbors, you cat may end up dead. Fortunately, I'm too much of an animal lover to do that.


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## nicolaa123 (Mar 30, 2012)

I agree about wildlife and all pet owners can take measures with their animals to reduce the impact on this.

On another note I don't think its possible to compare a cat and a dog. If my cat would be walked on a lead and i was able to take to a park and let off his lead and was able to be trained to come back when called then it would be an ideal situation, but cats are trainers and not trainees!! 

The thread has made me think tho about the impact my letting my cat out could have, all be it he has limited access.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Alfride said:


> First, what is not true?
> 
> Second, could you please provide me with a source for your definition of ecosystems?
> 
> ...


well im off to watch BB now ... but i'll leave you some bits and bobs to have a read of:thumbsup: heres a quote from the 1st link.....

Despite the difficulties in showing the effect most predators have on their prey, cats are known to have serious impacts on small mammals and birds. Worldwide, cats may have been involved in the extinction of more bird species than any other cause, except habitat destruction.

Cats and Wildlife...A Conservation Dilemma

http://wildbirdfund.com/wp-content/uploads/predation.pdf

Why Cats Are a Threat to Our Ecosystem

http://www.tau.ac.il/lifesci/zoology/members/yom-tov/inbal/cats.pdf

lol and just because i have strong views on allowing cats to roam doesnt mean i have a vendetta against them...i love cats.

.


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

I agree with those people who have said that it depends on the cat/circumstances. My cat is an outdoor cat but recently lost most of her upper teeth. If/when the time comes when she loses them all, we will cat-proof an area of the garden so that she is safe. But this will hugely limit her area of 'exploration' (even tho' she stays pretty close to home). She was born a farm cat and would find the limitations difficult for a time but I hope it would not make her life a total mysery. How can anybody really know what is right/wrong for every cat?? It is a very difficult question for anybody to answer categorically (no pun intended :blushing: )


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Domestic cats are considered primarily responsible for the extinction of 8 island
> bird species, including Stephens Island Wren, Chatham Island Fernbird, and Auckland Island Merganser, and the eradication of 41 bird species from New Zealand islands *alone*.
> 
> .


I know nothing about New Zealand but if this is the case I would rather see a situation where cats are banned from these particular islands rather than confined indoors.
I don't see why cats in another country (i.e. the UK) should be kept indoors because of a situation thousands of miles away.
No bird species have been made extinct where I live so why the need to keep them indoors here. If no cats were allowed out we would be overrun with mice and have to kill them another way.
Taking responsibity for my pets does not mean controlling their every move.
I think that is unethical.
I like to think of my pets as "friends" who share my home,
not prisoners confined within it.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

scatchy said:


> I know nothing about New Zealand but if this is the case I would rather see a situation where cats are banned from these particular islands rather than confined indoors.


Cats are not indiginous to New Zealand or Australia, just like rabbits...
And we all know what happens when you introduce exotic species to a stable ecosystem....
I fear that even if all house cats were to be confined to a run or cat-proofed garden, there would still be enough ferals to continue killing off entire species. Cats havehad the chance to multiply, run off and become feral for a couple of centuries, now, and they have no natural enemies over there....



> No bird species have been made extinct where I live so why the need to keep them indoors here. If no cats were allowed out we would be overrun with mice and have to kill them another way.


Cats are indiginous in all of Europe, and because other predators have become extinct or greatly reduced in numbers, they are now doing the lion's share of pest control and weeding out the weaker individuals in their prey species.
If certain species of bird or insect are in rapid decline, it is not because the cats are killing them all, but because we, humans, have destroyed their habitat.

The numbers of common sparrow fell very rapidly over the past 30-odd years in the Netherlands. Want to know why? Instead of building houses with tiled roofs, they all suddenly built them with flat roofs, because it was cheaper to build. But the sparrow had adapted to living in towns and villages by nesting under roof tiles. They had no more place to build their nests, so their numbers fell. But, for decades, the media blamed the cats.



> I like to think of my pets as "friends" who share my home,
> not prisoners confined within it.


Exactly!!!!!
I am prepared to limit their territiry to my garden if their own safety requires it, but only if I have cats that will be happy and content to be restrained in that manner. As long as I have a free-roaming semi-feral, it is not going to happen.
And I can tell you I would sleep a lot easier if my garden was cat-proofed......


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Domestic cats are considered primarily responsible for the extinction of 8 island
> bird species, including Stephens Island Wren, Chatham Island Fernbird, and Auckland Island Merganser, and the eradication of 41 bird species from New Zealand islands *alone*.


Not cats, _HUMANS_

Europeans and their ships full of plants, seeds, animals, and their bodies full of germs unknown to the original inhabitants have killed off these species.

Cats don't belong in New Zealand, and strictly speaking, neither do you, unless you are Maori. It is US, western pioneers, that have ruined the ecosystem of all our 'colonies'. Not just by introducing plants and animals that replaced the indiginous ones, but by replacing the indiginous population by ourselves, killing or subduing the 'natives'.
And killing them we did, even if we did not raise a hand against them. Did you know that entire Inuit tribes have gone extinct due to us infecting them with measles????

The entire human race should be kept in cages, not the cats. Cats only do what comes natural to them, we have long stopped doing anything natural (apart from procreating, that is).


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

scatchy said:


> I know nothing about New Zealand but if this is the case I would rather see a situation where cats are banned from these particular islands rather than confined indoors.
> I don't see why cats in another country (i.e. the UK) should be kept indoors because of a situation thousands of miles away.
> No bird species have been made extinct where I live so why the need to keep them indoors here. If no cats were allowed out we would be overrun with mice and have to kill them another way.
> Taking responsibity for my pets does not mean controlling their every move.
> ...


thats species exterminated from New Zealand ALONE...meaning cats are responsible for the demise of other species elsewhere!

how do you know cats in the UK wont be the final straw for one of our already declining bird species?? sparrow numbers have crashed! cats are thought to be one of the main reasons for this. Are cat owners who let their cats roam going to wait until we lose a species before they take responsibility for their pets..

by the way how on earth would you know what impact cats in your neighbourhood were having on your local wildlife?

studies have shown that woodmice are one of a cats main prey species....do you realise this species isnt even classed as a 'pest' species? mice are a vitally important food source for our native predators such as owls, the millions of cats also impact on predator species who have to compete with them for food!

lol well maybe i should open my door and release my huskies, how unethical of me to keep them prisoners

...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> Not cats, _HUMANS_
> 
> Europeans and their ships full of plants, seeds, animals, and their bodies full of germs unknown to the original inhabitants have killed off these species.
> 
> ...


two wrongs dont make a right im afraid....we now know millions of cats have a huge impact on wildlife, hunting may well be natural for them, just as it is for my huskies, but NEITHER belong in the natural world, they are domesticated!

.


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## Mo1959 (Mar 31, 2012)

Slightly off topic, but I believe it is all the pesticides and herbicides and loss of natural habitation that is causing our declining bird population, and very little to do with cats.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Mo1959 said:


> Slightly off topic, but I believe it is all the pesticides and herbicides and loss of natural habitation that is causing our declining bird population, and very little to do with cats.


no doubt those are the main factors,,,but you think 10 million cats predating our wildlife 'Unchecked' isnt going to have a massive impact on already declining populations 

if this were a wild predator they would have their populations controlled!

.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> Cats are not indiginous to New Zealand or Australia, just like rabbits...
> And we all know what happens when you introduce exotic species to a stable ecosystem....
> I fear that even if all house cats were to be confined to a run or cat-proofed garden, there would still be enough ferals to continue killing off entire species. Cats havehad the chance to multiply, run off and become feral for a couple of centuries, now, and they have no natural enemies over there....
> 
> ...


cats arnt indiginous to anywhere.. they are an Introduced species.....or do you mean where it evolved from? wasnt that Asia or Africa?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> two wrongs dont make a right im afraid....we now know millions of cats have a huge impact on wildlife, hunting may well be natural for them, just as it is for my huskies, but NEITHER belong in the natural world, they are domesticated!
> 
> .


If you had read my post, you would have known the TRUE reason for the decline of sparrows: US!!!!!!
First by ruining their natural habitat, and then by discontinuing the artificial habitat we had - quite accidentally - created for them.
Cats had nothing whatsoever to do with it, for the numbers of tits and finches ROSE during these same decades, and tits and finches are just as easy to catch as sparrows. Another cause of the decline of several species of city birds are the large numbers of rose-ringed parakeets in towns and pakrs. And don't forget pollution. The use of DDT in the last century has rendered many animals infertile, because DDT is stored in fat tissue and released by the end of winter, when animals really need their fat reserves. Their offspring is often infertile.
THEY are the main causes of the decline of many species in Europe.

Simply blaming it on cats is just ignorance, peopple quoting people, while new research has already proven them wrong to a great extent.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> cats arnt indiginous to anywhere.. they are an Introduced species.....or do you mean where it evolved from? wasnt that Asia or Africa?


Asia, Africa and Europe had large populations of wild cat.
The only continents they are not indiginous are America and Australia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcat


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

The domesticated cat is simply a wild cat that adapted to changing circumstances. They are an opportunist species. If you call a cat unnatural because it does what comes natural to the species, i.e. adapt to a changing habitat, you may as well call a sparrow or a raccoon unnatural because domesticated. They, too, are opportunists that make use of our way of living to find food and shelter.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> If you had read my post, you would have known the TRUE reason for the decline of sparrows: US!!!!!!
> First by ruining their natural habitat, and then by discontinuing the artificial habitat we had - quite accidentally - created for them.
> Cats had nothing whatsoever to do with it, for the numbers of tits and finches ROSE during these same decades, and tits and finches are just as easy to catch as sparrows. Another cause of the decline of several species of city birds are the large numbers of rose-ringed parakeets in towns and pakrs. And don't forget pollution. The use of DDT in the last century has rendered many animals infertile, because DDT is stored in fat tissue and released by the end of winter, when animals really need their fat reserves. Their offspring is often infertile.
> THEY are the main causes of the decline of many species in Europe.
> ...


i can see you havent bothered to read any of the links ive put up have you

if you want to stick your head in the sand thats your perogative....but i have never said that there arnt other factors for the decline!.....somethings we cant do anything about though....some things we can and if people took responsibility for their10 million cats......then just look how much wildlife we could save

*That impact has been much discussed in conservation circles over the past decade, certainly since a report published by the Mammal Society in 2003 concluded that British cats had taken an estimated 92 million prey items over a five-month period.

When the researchers factored in kills that had not been returned (brought back to the cats owner), it was extrapolated that the overall tally could be as high as 275 million individual animals every year. 
*

.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> The domesticated cat is simply a wild cat that adapted to changing circumstances. They are an opportunist species. If you call a cat unnatural because it does what comes natural to the species, i.e. adapt to a changing habitat, you may as well call a sparrow or a raccoon unnatural because domesticated. They, too, are opportunists that make use of our way of living to find food and shelter.


lmao


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## Mo1959 (Mar 31, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> no doubt those are the main factors,,,but you think 10 million cats predating our wildlife 'Unchecked' isnt going to have a massive impact on already declining populations
> 
> if this were a wild predator they would have their populations controlled!
> 
> .


Sorry, have to disagree, at least in my area. There are no more cats with free roam now than there was when I was growing up.

The difference is, that when I was young, farming was less intensive, there were more small fields with hedgerows and strips that didn't have crops right to the edge. Now, they have massive fields which are planted right to the edges and covered in all sorts of fertilisers, herbicides, etc to get the last drop of produce from the land.

My own cat is kept indoors out of choice, but I am not prepared to have those that do get free roam blamed for something which is mostly down to man and the way we treat out countryside.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> by the way how on earth would you know what impact cats in your neighbourhood were having on your local wildlife?
> 
> studies have shown that woodmice are one of a cats main prey species....do you realise this species isnt even classed as a 'pest' species? mice are a vitally important food source for our native predators such as owls, the millions of cats also impact on predator species who have to compete with them for food!...


Most of the other natural predators feeding on woodmice, such as weazels, ermine, owls and badgers are in decline, NOT because of lack of prey, but because their territory is being destroyed by us.
Keeping the cats in will NOT increase their numbers, only increasing the stretches of undisturbed woodland will.

If it werern't for the cats, the woodmice WOULD be a pest.
Do you realize that one pair of woodmice produce over 50 offspring during their lifetime, adn their offspring start producing offspring withing just a few months after birth. If most of them weren't killed by cats and other predators, we'd be overrun by mice.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> i can see you havent bothered to read any of the links ive put up have you
> 
> if you want to stick your head in the sand thats your perogative....but i have never said that there arnt other factors for the decline!.....somethings we cant do anything about though....some things we can and if people took responsibility for their10 million cats......then just look how much wildlife we could save
> 
> ...


There are reports and counter-reports....
The fact that 2 things occur simultaneously does not mean one causes the other, it may also mean the other causes the one, or that both the one and the other are caused by a third factor that has not been discussed or even discovered.

I am a researcher myself, though in a very different field, and just because someone publishes a theory, and quotes statistics to prove it, doesn't convince me. I want to see proof of the actual causal relationship.

There is a faction among naturalist who seem so intent on blaming it all on cats that it gets the makings of a witch hunt. I can tell you they are wrong.
Cats DO play a part in killing off wildlife, but they also play a vital part in controlling pests.

In my neighbourhood (I live along the bank of a river) we know exactly when one of the neighbours has acquired a cat who is a good rat hunter. Once that particular cat dies, we have a rat problem again, till the next ratter is introduced.

My Jiskefet was a rat catcher, and some years after his death, someone up the road had a good ratter, too. These were the only times the council did not have to send in rat catchers every summer.
I don't know which new cat would qualify, but I haven't seen a rat this year, yet, so I think we might have a new ratter....


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> The domesticated cat is simply a wild cat that adapted to changing circumstances. They are an opportunist species. If you call a cat unnatural because it does what comes natural to the species, i.e. adapt to a changing habitat, you may as well call a sparrow or a raccoon unnatural because domesticated. They, too, are opportunists that make use of our way of living to find food and shelter.


You cant have it both ways its either domesticated or its wild my breed is a primitive breed which also retains its predatory nature....i wouldnt try to kid myself that its anything but a domestic dog though!



Mo1959 said:


> Sorry, have to disagree, at least in my area. There are no more cats with free roam now than there was when I was growing up.
> 
> The difference is, that when I was young, farming was less intensive, there were more small fields with hedgerows and strips that didn't have crops right to the edge. Now, they have massive fields which are planted right to the edges and covered in all sorts of fertilisers, herbicides, etc to get the last drop of produce from the land.
> 
> My own cat is kept indoors out of choice, but I am not prepared to have those that do get free roam blamed for something which is mostly down to man and the way we treat out countryside.


Yes, yet again i agree these changes have been detrimental to wildlife *sigh*....but it doesnt take a genius to realise that added pressures, like predation from cats,...is going to make the situation for our wildlife a whole lot worse.



Jiskefet said:


> Most of the other natural predators feeding on woodmice, such as weazels, ermine, owls and badgers are in decline, NOT because of lack of prey, but because their territory is being destroyed by us.
> Keeping the cats in will NOT increase their numbers, only increasing the stretches of undisturbed woodland will.
> 
> If it werern't for the cats, the woodmice WOULD be a pest.
> Do you realize that one pair of woodmice produce over 50 offspring during their lifetime, adn their offspring start producing offspring withing just a few months after birth. If most of them weren't killed by cats and other predators, we'd be overrun by mice.


of couse there are other factors..jeezus  lol...but owned cats have a huge advantage over native predators. They receive protection from disease, predation, competition, and starvation ....factors which control our indiginous predators such as owls, foxes,mustilids etc. Cats with dependable food sources are not as vulnerable to changes in prey populations. Unlike many native predators, cats are not strictly territorial. As a result, cats can exist at much higher densities and may out-compete native predators for food.

how do you know cats wont cause woodmice populations to crash then???

.



Jiskefet said:


> There are reports and counter-reports....
> The fact that 2 things occur simultaneously does not mean one causes the other, it may also mean the other causes the one, or that both the one and the other are caused by a third factor that has not been discussed or even discovered.
> 
> I am a researcher myself, though in a very different field, and just because someone publishes a theory, and quotes statistics to prove it, doesn't convince me. I want to see proof of the actual causal relationship.
> ...


i hope you when you do your research its non biased 

.ETA that report was based on a scientific study, they counted the creatures killed by the cats!

,


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## nicolaa123 (Mar 30, 2012)

I found this quite an eye opening read

The RSPB: Advice: Are cats causing bird declines?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

nicolaa123 said:


> I found this quite an eye opening read
> 
> The RSPB: Advice: Are cats causing bird declines?


i think anyone who knows anything about the RSPB knows that they run with the hare and run with the hounds....its to maximise donations


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

nicolaa123 said:


> I found this quite an eye opening read
> 
> The RSPB: Advice: Are cats causing bird declines?


Exactly.

That is my point regarding the woodmice, too.
Predators killing prey is natural, and to maintain the species, only 1 of their 50 offspring needs to survive.
Yes, one (or even less), not two, as is commonly thought, because during the parents lifetime, their offspring have procreated, and THEIR offspring have procreated, and theirs, so if 2 offspring of each generation were to survive long enough to procreate, their number would have risen 6- to 12-fold by the time the original parents died.

So, in order to keep the species within check AND healthy, the weaker individuals NEED to be eliminated. Only the strongest, fittest, healthiest specimens should survive long enough to breed.

THAT is nature.

WE have corrupted and destroyed nature to such an extent that in some cases we need to protect the weak, totally unfit individuals to maintain the species, but don't blame the cats.

Domestic cats are not only protected against disease, predation and competition, they are also well-fed, and therefore catch FAR less prey than they would if they had to sustain themselves. Many cats don't hunt, or at least hardly catch anything at all, because they are lousy hunters. They could never survive in the wild.

Of my 7, only 2 are proficient hunters, and 3 will catch a bird or mouse if it almost literally walks or flies into their mouths. But none of them will catch anywhere near the number of prey they would need to survive, so the argument that there are far too many cats to create a natural balance doesn't hold up.

We leave too much food lying around for the numbers of mice and birds to be natural, anyway. What if the number of tits and sparrows drop in towns???? Is a town a natural habitat for them in the first place?

If you say it isn't natural for a cat ro roam and hunt in a town, it is unnatural for a bird or mouse to live and feed in a town, too.
You can't have it both ways, cats have adapted to the abundance of prey (to such an extent that some will only catch what prey literally offers itself to them), which prey, in turn, has adapted to the abundance of food and the lack of natural predators we provided.

So there is nothing natural aobut the 'wildlife' in and around towns, to begin with.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> i think anyone who knows anything about the RSPB knows that they run with the hare and run with the hounds....its to maximise donations


Why is it then that research in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and France produce similar results?????

I participate in a prey registration scheme, myself, because I do not want 'science' to be based on prejudice. And in my area, which borders on a nature reserve, they ALSO find the cats' impact on wildlife is many times less important than has always been assumed.


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## Alfride (May 19, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> well im off to watch BB now ... but i'll leave you some bits and bobs to have a read of:thumbsup: heres a quote from the 1st link.....
> 
> Despite the difficulties in showing the effect most predators have on their prey, cats are known to have serious impacts on small mammals and birds. Worldwide, cats may have been involved in the extinction of more bird species than any other cause, except habitat destruction.
> 
> ...


So are you going to ignore most of my points?

First, a general point - none of your studies are European and refer to the European domesticated cat. You can't just transfer one study from one area to another and assume the same issues apply. For example, there are many differences between the UK and America and Australia and Denmark. For once the wild life is completely different and the control of feral / stray cats population is different. Do you have any studies independently funded that apply to Europe?

Cats and Wildlife...A Conservation Dilemma (This is an article funded by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service that refer to other studies. I can't evaluate the validity of the article without reading all the studies that it refers to. Have you read all these studies? Or just the article? Reading the article I can see that their main agenda is to protect wildlife from cats by all means. I can agree that the population of feral and stray needs to be controlled for protecting wildlife and many other reasons as well as we do with other species as well. The article shows no evidence that pet cats with a home that go out have caused extinction. Also, an article mentioning declawing as something acceptable I can't take seriously  declawing is torture.)

http://wildbirdfund.com/wp-content/uploads/predation.pdf (This study is sponsored by the American Bird Conservancy, which is world-famous for their agenda against cats  hardly independent. Jonathan Franzen treats this topic in his book Freedom. One of his characters in the book is a firm believer in keeping cats indoor by all means - by many others he is perceived as a fanatic. In America there is a tendency to go fanatic on some topics  there is no middle way  just black and white  right and wrong. It is brilliantly described in Jonathan Franzens book. Not that we don't have the same tendencies in Europe or anywhere else where people are roaming we certainly do. This study also has no clear evidence that pet cats have caused extinction. There needs to be a distinction between pet cats and feral/stray cat.)

Why Cats Are a Threat to Our Ecosystem (This is just a short superficial article with no sources)

http://www.tau.ac.il/lifesci/zoology...inbal/cats.pdf (This is a summary that refers to other studies and does not apply to Europe  the author is Israeli and says there are no studies about the impact of domestic cats on wildlife in Israel. He is refering to studies in America, Australia and New Zealand. 
Again, if you want to evaluate the validity of his summary you need to read all his sources. Have you done this? I see no evidence in his summary supporting your claim that pet cats are causing extinction. He mainly talks about feral cats that have had a significant impact on wildlife)

What I can tell you is that in Denmark there have never been any issues/debate about the domesticated cat. This is a country that is very environmentally friendly and goes mad whenever any species is endangered. Putting up a windmill is a big deal each time as it is responsible for killing many many birds.

You say you love cats but you clearly don't understand them and their needs or else you wouldn't be so determined for them to be locked up in prison. I repeat cats with a strong need to go out are extremely unhappy living indoor  it is cruelty.

Again what are you doing? Personally, I don't eat meat and only buy organic food and try to live somewhat minimalistic (not that I see myself as a saint  I am well aware of my huge impact on this planet). I only feed my Rosiepie organic meat as well as trying to minimize her impact and the suffering of the animals that has to die because of her. I take responsibility for Rosie and myself  what about you?

If you are that concerned about saving the wildlife read this article:

NBD Special (Part VI): Help Global Bird Populations Through Diet

So until you are a responsible human being living on a vegan diet don't lecture me on being a responsible cat owner.

It is much easier blaming pet cats for declining biodiversity than doing something about your own life style. Pointing fingers at little cat Charlie that lives next door is easy! Stopping your intake of meat, reducing your use of electricity, reducing traveling and so on is DIFFICULT - so we blame cat Charlie  don't we?


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

messyhearts said:


> chillminx said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not
> ...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> i think anyone who knows anything about the RSPB knows that they run with the hare and run with the hounds....its to maximise donations


Well that's certainly a sweeping statement if ever there was one -- can I ask what "inside" knowledge you have that justifies what you say

My OH has worked at the RSPB for years, and would most definitely refute your assertion. I am always struck by the high level of integrity of the RSPB.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

messyhearts said:


> An out of touch law doesn't mean it is right.
> 
> We can see that the law isn't always right with the dog breed bans in place currently.


Meaning there should be more dog breeds banned I take it you mean? If so, I agree.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Mo1959 said:


> Slightly off topic, but I believe it is all the pesticides and herbicides and loss of natural habitation that is causing our declining bird population, and very little to do with cats.


Thank you for your common sense comment Mo


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I voted "NO" although my cat does go outside - I dont class him as a roamer - he stays in my garden and is out for a couple of hours if that at a time ......he has a curfew and is in over night - I also go outside and call him if he is gone more than his usual time so I know he is still around and ok.

Cats that are allowed to roam endlessly for days on end un-neutered I disagree with as that is irresponsible and unsafe imo - but if you have weighed up ALL risks and minimised as many as you can for the safety of your cat then I dont see a problem wiht them being allowed outside


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> Exactly.
> 
> That is my point regarding the woodmice, too.
> Predators killing prey is natural, and to maintain the species, only 1 of their 50 offspring needs to survive.
> ...


so what about cats who live in the country then? do we stop these predating our wildlife ??, after all isnt this where wildlife 'should be'?.



Jiskefet said:


> Why is it then that research in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and France produce similar results?????
> 
> I participate in a prey registration scheme, myself, because I do not want 'science' to be based on prejudice. And in my area, which borders on a nature reserve, they ALSO find the cats' impact on wildlife is many times less important than has always been assumed.


ive not seen this research? ....

but i do know because of their spiralling cat population the Belgium govenment are hoping to push through a law to sterilse practically every cat.. so fingers crossed for that.

as for France they have a similar cat population to ours yet France is a far far bigger country therefore its obvious the impact on their wildlife isnt going to be as great as it is on ours!

cats are the most numerous predator in the UK, their numbers are increasing year upon year....if you dont think all these millions of animals arnt going to take a huge toll on our wildlife then you are seriously blinkered, theres no way a wild predator would ever be allowed to reach those numbers before they were controlled!

& its not just bird numbers they are impacting on...Cats are also one of the main reasons for the decline in our native reptiles

.

,


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I voted no. I respect that many people feel cats should be allowed their freedom, but I feel this can only happen in certain circumstances, such as:

No busy roads 
Free roaming cats to all be neutered/spayed, innoculated and microchipped
No toileting in neighbours' gardens
No harassing of/fighting with neighbours' cats 
No contact with dangerous humans
Safe from dogs or other predators
Minimal exposure to the sun

As I would not be able to achieve this for roaming cats in my current situation, I prefer to keep my cats confined. I have a cat-proofed garden and they are not allowed out from dusk to dawn and have to stay indoors during the working weeks.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> > maybe i should open my door and release my huskies, how unethical of me to keep them prisoners
> 
> 
> ...
> ...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> > i do know because of their spiralling cat population the Belgium govenment are hoping to push through a law to sterilse practically every cat.. so fingers crossed for that.
> 
> 
> If a law is passed in Belgium to sterilise *"practically every cat"* as you state, then eventually domestic cats will cease to exist, other than some well-hidden ferals perhaps. And you think this is a good thing?


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

I think we are straying a bit from the topic but personally I feel we are to blame in areas where there are too many cats causing damages, as we are very good at introducing then washing our hands.

I understood the original question in terms of safety, at the end of the day we decide everything for them. What they eat, if they should go out, we make desicions relating to their health issues and we take the ability to procreate from them, so we should be responsible for the choices we make in their name. The cat gets used to the situation and I´m all for cat proofing the garden and letting them feel the sunlight and run around in circles but I feel we are being irresponsible when we let them roam freely especially when we no longer live in large farms with no cars, no neighbours...

It is so sad to read post of distraught owners that have to make desicions about well loved pets or come here to say how much they have to spend on them (sometimes they don´t even have the money). At the end of the day it is the cat that suffers most in the hands of the vet or later living a very low quality life.

So my question is, why dont we learn from other people´s experiences and play safe? We decided to have cats as domestic pets, we should really look out for them then.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Alfride said:


> So are you going to ignore most of my points?
> 
> *not at all but Big brother was calling*
> 
> ...


non of its difficult for me.. because i dont drive and dont eat red meat nor any meat for that matter...i do the best i can to live as ethically as i can...but if you choose to believe that 10 million introduced predators arnt having an impact on native wildlife then thats entirely up to you

and just to add one of my dogs got hold of a cat on my drive the other week and it was horrible, since ive had siberians ive lost count of the number of cats ive heard of that huskies have killed/had hold of...it must be well over 20 individuals now, why should people have to experience something so horrific?? poor cats if only their owners had taken responsibility for them .

.



chillminx said:


> messyhearts said:
> 
> 
> > The article you quoted is written about the USA, a very different situation from the UK. In the USA, in many areas outside the cities, there are natural wild predators e.g. coyote who prey upon cats.
> ...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> > and just to add one of my dogs got hold of a cat on my drive the other week and it was horrible, since ive had siberians ive lost count of the number of cats ive heard of that huskies have killed/had hold of...it must be well over 20 individuals now, why should people have to experience something so horrific?? *poor cats if only their owners had taken responsibility for them*
> >
> >
> > > Yes, poor cats, if only the *dogs' owners* had taken responsibility for their dogs!!
> > ...


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> thats species exterminated from New Zealand ALONE...meaning cats are responsible for the demise of other species elsewhere!
> 
> how do you know cats in the UK wont be the final straw for one of our already declining bird species?? sparrow numbers have crashed! cats are thought to be one of the main reasons for this. Are cat owners who let their cats roam going to wait until we lose a species before they take responsibility for their pets..
> 
> ...


The problem is opinions change. yes I have heard the cats are responsible for declining sparrow numbers, yet the last item I heard about is said it was loss of habitat and food sources that were responsible. 
Some reseachers, especially those not keen on cats are very quick to put two and two together and make five.
For the record we have sparrows living in our roof, have done since we have lived here so it seems my four felines have notcaused the extinction of these particularly sparrows yet.
I know we are lucky to live where we do in an area that is not too densely populated and we have a large garden and fields around us.
Our garden is a wildlife garden by design and is full of birds, reptiles(slow worms& grass snakes) frogs, toads and newts including great crested newts. We have bats, small mammals, and larger ones (badgers,foxes) various butterfly species, beetles, crickets, grasshoppers and bees.
Inevitably there are a few casualties, but as I have said before some small mammals and rabbits are very prolific and predation is natural if not pleasant.
In general I feel we have a happy balance here.

I do know a bit about wildlife(not an expert but an interested amateur).
we have barn owls in our locality and I do not accept their decline is due to cats. it is due to loss of homes and food source.
Voles are their prefered food source and the few my cats eat will not make up for the wholesale loss of voles in general because of the current methods of farm management.
The other reason is loss of homes just about every former farm building around here has been converted into a home for people now, every barn, every oast house and every granary has people living it and the owls and bats are pushed out.
Keeping my cats indoors will make no difference to this state of affairs.

As for releasing your huskies, I agree with previous posters that if you choose to keep dogs you should have a garden for them to be in and provide them with off lead daily exercise so that they can have some "me " time.
An opportunity to run at will ,sniff doggy things and do what dogs do!
Dogs should no more be kept indoors all the time than cats.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Your garden sounds wonderful Scatchy! I am envious!


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Your garden sounds wonderful Scatchy! I am envious!


Thanks - I'd post some photos if I knew how!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

chillminx said:


> noushka05 said:
> 
> 
> > If a law is passed in Belgium to sterilise *"practically every cat"* as you state, then eventually domestic cats will cease to exist, other than some well-hidden ferals perhaps. And you think this is a good thing?
> ...


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Scatchy -- if you click "Reply" then scroll down the page to "Additional Options", click on "Manage Attachments", then click on "Browse" it will bring up the photo files you have stored on your own computer. Then scroll down until you find the pic you want to upload and click on it. Hope that works OK


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

scatchy said:


> The problem is opinions change. yes I have heard the cats are responsible for declining sparrow numbers, yet the last item I heard about is said it was loss of habitat and food sources that were responsible.
> Some reseachers, especially those not keen on cats are very quick to put two and two together and make five.
> For the record we have sparrows living in our roof, have done since we have lived here so it seems my four felines have notcaused the extinction of these particularly sparrows yet.
> I know we are lucky to live where we do in an area that is not too densely populated and we have a large garden and fields around us.
> ...


lol who says i dont have a garden for them?  , they are Siberian huskies so they only go off lead somewhere secure, they are very efficient predators and very independant natured so recall should never be trusted..hence why responsible owners never take any chances with them by risking them off lead , mine are very well exercised and get tons of 'me' time thank you, and they arent a nuisance to anyone either


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

> as it happens they wernt running loose on MY driveway...but if they were it is MY drive way! the cat was trespassing NOT the dogs..


.

It would be no defence in law if say a child wandered onto your driveway and your dog attacked him/her. So the argument about it being your driveway doesn't hold water I'm afraid.  You are responsible for controlling your dog's behaviour no matter where it is. Even if a dog attacked and bit a visitor to your house, such as the postman or a workman, it could still result in you being prosecuted and possibly the court ruling your dog should be euthanised.

If the dog was not running loose on your driveway then how did it manage to chase a cat Are you saying the cat just strolled right up to your dog whilst you had the dog controlled on a lead?


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## Cyberfyn (Nov 25, 2008)

Well, our two Maine Coons have outdoor access 24/7 with no restrictions. We've kept cats for over 20 years at this address and never lost one to anything other than old age or illness.

Dexter, Out and proud on his lookout:









And Honey (White blob)









Ian F.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> lol who says i dont have a garden for them?  , they are Siberian huskies so they only go off lead somewhere secure, they are very efficient predators and very independant natured so recall should never be trusted..hence why responsible owners never take any chances with them by risking them off lead , mine are very well exercised and get tons of 'me' time thank you, and they arent a nuisance to anyone either


Well that's great to hear! And it means they are *not* being kept "prisoner" in your home are they, all cooped up and miserable? You are 
being a caring owner and allowing them to be themselves and express their *doglike* behaviour. Wonderful

That's all I am expecting for my cats too -- that they are allowed to express their *catlike* behaviour, which they certainly can't do if they not allowed outdoors.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

chillminx said:


> .
> 
> It would be no defence in law if say a child wandered onto your driveway and your dog attacked him/her. So the argument about it being your driveway doesn't hold water I'm afraid.  You are responsible for controlling your dog's behaviour no matter where it is. Even if a dog attacked and bit a visitor to your house, such as the postman or a workman, it could still result in you being prosecuted and possibly the court ruling your dog should be euthanised.
> 
> If the dog was not running loose on your driveway then how did it manage to chase a cat Are you saying the cat just strolled right up to your dog whilst you had the dog controlled on a lead?


oh that would NEVER happen my dogs ADORE people especially children...so sorry to disappoint lol...siberians love people they have no guarding instincts whatsoever, they are just efficient killers of non canine animals!

maybe you should read the link i posted basically i had 3 of my dogs on lead, next minute one of them was shaking the cat, now i have no idea why a cat would get so close to strange dogs?? but i have an aqaintence who has a lot of cats and dogs...at least two of her cats that i know have have been savaged by strange dogs...so maybe the cat had no fear of dogs because it was use to them??

.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> lol who says i dont have a garden for them?  , they are Siberian huskies so they only go off lead somewhere secure, they are very efficient predators and very independant natured so recall should never be trusted..hence why responsible owners never take any chances with them by risking them off lead , mine are very well exercised and get tons of 'me' time thank you, and they arent a nuisance to anyone either


I wasn't implying you did not have a suitable home for them it was purely an opinion about dog keeping in general.
Though it seems strange that someone so concerned about wildlife should want to keep huskies if they are such efficient predators and cannot be trusted.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Ian F -- what an absolute paradise for cats......and for humans too! I'd love to wake up with those views every day!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

chillminx said:


> Well that's great to hear! And it means they are *not* being kept "prisoner" in your home are they, all cooped up and miserable? You are
> being a caring owner and allowing them to be themselves and express their *doglike* behaviour. Wonderful
> 
> That's all I am expecting for my cats too -- that they are allowed to express their *catlike* behaviour, which they certainly can't do if they not allowed outdoors.


thank you im know for certain that like your cats, they too would love to be off hunting and killing, afterall its just as hardwired into them as any cat,..... but i care way too much not only for them and their safety but also for wildlife....and i live in fear that one day they will eventually kill someones roaming cat.

.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

scatchy said:


> I wasn't implying you did not have a suitable home for them it was purely an opinion about dog keeping in general.
> Though it seems strange that someone so concerned about wildlife should want to keep huskies if they are such efficient predators and cannot be trusted.


why strange? i do everything i possibly can to minimise the risk they pose to animals, as does everyone i associate with in this wonderful breed.


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

Cyberfyn said:


> And Honey (White blob)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol. I can just about see that white blob


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> > and i live in fear that one day they will eventually kill someones roaming cat.
> 
> 
> If I lived in fear of my dogs harming someone else's cat I would fence in my garden and make it catproof so no cat could get in, and I would muzzle my dogs when I took them out on the lead.
> ...


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## tinky75 (Jul 1, 2012)

I don't mind either way - I have had my cats indoors because of the areas we lived in and they were fine, now where we live I felt my cats could (they have now both passed away) go out and it was this time they were their happiest, to be honest I couldn't now imagine having to keep all doors windows shut constantly and worry of them escaping! Our new kitty will be going outdoors when I feel he is ready.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

chillminx said:


> noushka05 said:
> 
> 
> > If I lived in fear of my dogs harming someone else's cat I would fence in my garden and make it catproof so no cat could get in, and I would muzzle my dogs when I took them out on the lead.
> ...


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Scatchy -- if you click "Reply" then scroll down the page to "Additional Options", click on "Manage Attachments", then click on "Browse" it will bring up the photo files you have stored on your own computer. Then scroll down until you find the pic you want to upload and click on it. Hope that works OK


Thank you. I am going to try it out on a new thread.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

There are many options if your cat needs exercise. Either build an outdoor enclosure, watch the cat while it's outside, walk it on a lead, or let it roam around indoors. I see people walking their cats on a lead sometimes. lol Don't let it roam onto and possibly damage other people's property. I've had cats sheltering in our car's engine before. Would've resulted in the death of the cat and a mess in the car engine, if I hadn't noticed. People would get upset about a dog being loose and using their lawn as a toilet or tearing up their lawn and garden.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Some of the attitude I'm finding on this thread is quite eyeopening.Why should a dog owner or any other member of the general public for that matter be expected to take precautions for a free roaming cat that just happens to come their way.
Yes I agree that you dont discard anything harmful or act in any way that you know will harm a cat or other animal if you can avoid it,but to be expected to be responsible for the safety of someone elses animal when they have opened the door to allow it to "free roam" is taking it a bit far.You make the choice for your cat when you open the door,just as I make the choice when I dont.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

DogLover1981 said:


> There are many options if your cat needs exercise. Either build an outdoor enclosure, watch the cat while it's outside, walk it on a lead, or let it roam around indoors. I see people walking their cats on a lead sometimes. lol Don't let it roam onto and possibly damage other people's property. I've had cats sheltering in our car's engine before. Would've resulted in the death of the cat and a mess in the car engine, if I hadn't noticed. People would get upset about a dog being loose and using their lawn as a toilet or tearing up their lawn and garden.


For me allowing my cat out is not about exercise it is about freedom. If the cat is on a lead it still has no freedom of choice. It goes out when the owner decides, for as long as the owners decides and can only go where the owner allows.
The more I think about it the more I dislike the trends in modern pet keeping.
Whatever people say if an animal is never allowed out alone(or off the lead alone) it is a prisoner or slave.

The concept that one species should keep another animal species captive and under total control like this, particularly when the only reason is for their own pleasure is both questionable and in my opinion undesirable.
It used to be a bit of a joke that if a cat wasn't happy in his home he would vote with his feet and go elsewhere - not much chance of that now for many cats! It really is a life sentence!
The independent spirit used to be what attracted many people to cats but some seem to want to crush that out of these beautiful animals.

When people claim their cats are better off kept indoors I am reminded of battery hen farmers.
Their argument used to be that their chickens were not just okay but actually better off than those kept outdoors.
After all they have a safe shed to live in, no risk from predators,temperature controlled conditions so they are never cold, they don't have to suffer wind or rain, they have food on tap and they MUST br happy because they lay lots of eggs.
Well at long last we are very slowly moving away from the battery system, because people are starting to acknowledge that animals should be able to exhibit their natural behaviour.
My last point - would you want to live indoors all the time with someone controlling every single thing you did?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

> domestic animals do not belong in the natural world


Wrong!!!!!!!
WE should adapt more to the natural world, lead a more natural life, and allow domesticated animals to live a more natural life, too.
WE steal nature from the animals and plants and demand they adapt to us, whereas WE should be adapting more to THEM.



> I blame irresponsible owners not cats


Irresponsible humans are not cat owners who allow their cats to be cats, irresponsible humans are those who want to steal the planet from nature and turn what little nature is left into a reservation where species must be protected from their natural enemies because WE have decimated their numbers, instead of minimizing our own unnatural way of living



> what if????? wow what a dreadful attitude...gardens are vital for our 'garden birds', but as it happens sparrow numbers have crashed in towns as have some tit species!! but what does it matter hey!!!


If a domestic cat is not 'a true indiginous cat', like you claim, and therefore does not belong outdoors, there IS no such thing as a garden bird. Garden birds are jsut as indiginous as domesticated cats and therefore have just as much right to our gardens and towns.



> again what a sad attitude to our wildlife you have


WILDLIFE???????
We are tallking about animals that have totally adapted to life in towns. 
If you call _garden birds _wildlife, _domesticated cats _are wildlife, too.

You think my attitude towards garden birds, mice and rats stinks, well, I think your attitude towards cats stinks.

Besides, human attitude towards wildlife is extremely biased, not to say hypocritical. No-one thinks twice about destroying animals or species that WE percieve as being detrimental to our comfort or safety. We reserve the right to preserve and protect the animals we think pretty or useful, but kill or chase away any species we percieve as unpleasant, useless or dangerous.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

scatchy said:


> For me allowing my cat out is not about exercise it is about freedom. If the cat is on a lead it still has no freedom of choice. It goes out when the owner decides, for as long as the owners decides and can only go where the owner allows.
> The more I think about it the more I dislike the trends in modern pet keeping.
> Whatever people say if an animal is never allowed out alone(or off the lead alone) it is a prisoner or slave.
> 
> ...


cat proofing a garden is a good alternative

lol well if you see it like that, maybe i ought to just let my huskies loose???......i mean at least _they'd_ keep the local cat population down!

but wow comparing pets who are kept responsibly to the way battery chickens are kept..what a comparison

in answer to your last point...better that then causing a nuisance of yourself, or an accident!, or destroying wildlife....or getting killed..hey!

.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Cyberfyn said:


> Well, our two Maine Coons have outdoor access 24/7 with no restrictions. We've kept cats for over 20 years at this address and never lost one to anything other than old age or illness.
> 
> Dexter, Out and proud on his lookout:
> 
> ...


My two would be in their glory in those fields 

Love this photo of Dexter, he looks very proud


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> chillminx said:
> 
> 
> > > Well im sorry but i most certainly wont be blaming Myself if they kill a cat why should the onus be dumped on the dog owner when its the cat owner that isnt being responsible???
> ...


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> cat proofing a garden is a good alternative
> 
> lol well if you see it like that, maybe i ought to just let my huskies loose???......i mean at least _they'd_ keep the local cat population down!
> 
> ...


In that case, I would have the right to keep the local husky population down.......
I think I will go and buy me a shotgun.....


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

buffie said:


> Some of the attitude I'm finding on this thread is quite eyeopening.Why should a dog owner or any other member of the general public for that matter be expected to take precautions for a free roaming cat that just happens to come their way.
> Yes I agree that you dont discard anything harmful or act in any way that you know will harm a cat or other animal if you can avoid it,but to be expected to be responsible for the safety of someone elses animal when they have opened the door to allow it to "free roam" is taking it a bit far.You make the choice for your cat when you open the door,just as I make the choice when I dont.


But I take precautions whenever I drive to make sure I don't hit a wild animal crossing the road, just as I am super cautious to have my eyes peeled for a cat that might run out when I drive along residential roads.

When I used to walk my mother's dogs I would grip the lead extra hard and wrap it round my hand if we were passing a cat sitting on a gate etc. just in case the dog tried to jump at it. My mother used to have a dog that chased cats, and to protect neighbours' cats she would never let the dog in her garden, just in case a cat walked through. Instead he was taken up to the fields every day (as were all her dogs) for a long run off the lead. She wouldn't have dreamt of taking the attitude it was the cat's fault or the neighbour's fault if her dog attacked the cat!

Basically it is about respect for all animal life, and doing my utmost to protect animals from injury or death whatever the cause. It is also about being a good citizen, and wanting to behave well towards my neighbours and their pets. 
Not "I'm all right Jack, never mind about anyone else". A bit more care in society would make the world a better place for us all to live in.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Jiskefet said:


> In that case, I would have the right to keep the local husky population down.......
> I think I will go and buy me a shotgun.....


Well said Jiskefet, she asked for that!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

[[


> QUOTE]QUOTE
> 
> 
> > =chillminx;1062124490]
> ...


[/QUOTE]
Wow what an incredibly selfish attitude, so if someones free roaming cat enters my garden and gets itself killed then its MY fault, even though my garden is secured to keep my dogs in ...and i never let them run loose?? Marvellous!!

i dont drive, but my eldest knocked down and killed a cat even though hes a careful driver!....but thats his fault of course ..not the cat owners ...they dont have to take responsibilty for their pets do they



Jiskefet said:


> In that case, I would have the right to keep the local husky population down.......
> I think I will go and buy me a shotgun.....


lol nice..... you're probably feeling the way cat haters feel

.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> lol nice..... you're probably feeling the way cat haters feel
> 
> .


Not towards the huskies, no, but towards the owner.........?????

Better sit on my hands now, or I will get banned. :cursing:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> Wrong!!!!!!!
> WE should adapt more to the natural world, lead a more natural life, and allow domesticated animals to live a more natural life, too.
> WE steal nature from the animals and plants and demand they adapt to us, whereas WE should be adapting more to THEM.
> 
> ...


Oh dear you really dont know the difference between a wild animal and a domesticated one , do you lol

why does my attitude to cats stick is it just because i think its irresponsible to let them roam??..


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> Not towards the huskies, no, but towards the owner.........?????
> 
> Better sit on my hands now, or I will get banned. :cursing:


lol calm down then, i dont want you to get yourself banned.

.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Oh dear you really dont know the difference between a wild animal and a domesticated one , do you lol
> 
> why does my attitude to cats stick is it just because i think its irresponsible to let them roam??..


No, YOU don't.

You mention a GARDEN bird and wildlife in one go.....

A garden is hardly a natural environment, and a domesticated cat is still as much a cat (an indiginous animal to ALL of Europe) as a bird is a bird.

You may be right when talking about Down Under, where cats do NOT belong, but your ideas about Europe are totally warped.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> i dont drive, but my eldest knocked down and killed a cat even though hes a careful driver!....but thats his fault of course ..not the cat owners ...they dont have to take responsibilty for their pets do they


No they don't....legally. The law does not exist in isolation to society -- it exists because society elected it to be the means by which society is managed and controlled.

Therefore it is not a cat owner's responsibility to follow his cat around and make sure it doesn't go on the road. By law a cat is regarded as "free roaming" and the owner is not required to keep the cat indoors or in a garden. Whereas a dog owner is, as I keep saying.

However, it is very much the legal responsibility of a driver to drive safely on the roads with due care and attention, and this includes being skilled and attentive enough to take avoiding action if anything runs out on to the road in front of you, whether it is a child, a dog, a cat or wildlife. I thought most animal lovers (and people lovers!) held this view 

EDIT: perhaps there is a different attitude to animals in NZ or Oz, if that is where you are located?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Tell me, Noushka, should we keep our cows, sheep and horses in our living rooms, too???? 
They are just as domesticated as our cats, and dogs DO tend to go after them, too. Sheep worrying by dogs is a very real issue in great parts of Europe......


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

chillminx said:


> But I take precautions whenever I drive to make sure I don't hit a wild animal crossing the road, just as I am super cautious to have my eyes peeled for a cat that might run out when I drive along residential roads.
> 
> When I used to walk my mother's dogs I would grip the lead extra hard and wrap it round my hand if we were passing a cat sitting on a gate etc. just in case the dog tried to jump at it. My mother used to have a dog that chased cats, and to protect neighbours' cats she would never let the dog in her garden, just in case a cat walked through. Instead he was taken up to the fields every day (as were all her dogs) for a long run off the lead. She wouldn't have dreamt of taking the attitude it was the cat's fault or the neighbour's fault if her dog attacked the cat!
> 
> ...


exactly this is basically what ive been saying all along.

.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

chillminx said:


> But I take precautions whenever I drive to make sure I don't hit a wild animal crossing the road, just as I am super cautious to have my eyes peeled for a cat that might run out when I drive along residential roads.
> 
> When I used to walk my mother's dogs I would grip the lead extra hard and wrap it round my hand if we were passing a cat sitting on a gate etc. just in case the dog tried to jump at it. My mother used to have a dog that chased cats, and to protect neighbours' cats she would never let the dog in her garden, just in case a cat walked through. Instead he was taken up to the fields every day (as were all her dogs) for a long run off the lead. She wouldn't have dreamt of taking the attitude it was the cat's fault or the neighbour's fault if her dog attacked the cat!
> 
> ...


I also take care not to endanger any animals domesticated or wild.I have bird boxes in the trees,have fox families living in the garden I have even pulled out a fire surround to rescue a crow that fell down the chimney 
The point I am trying to make is that the only person *responsible *for the safety of a pet is that pets owner.The minute the owner decides to open the door and allow the pet to "free roam" they have to accept that no one else needs to be responsible for that pets safety,beyond not deliberatley harming it.
As for not allowing dogs to run free in their own fenced garden incase a "free roaming" cat wanders in that is just plain daft.I would never have opened the door and let my Afghans free running in their garden if I was aware that a cat was there but,I sure as hell would not have kept them in on the off chance a cat wandered in while they were out,that is not my responsibility,it is up to the cats owners to weigh up the risks.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> No, YOU don't.
> 
> You mention a GARDEN bird and wildlife in one go.....
> 
> ...


i apologise if you havent heard the term 'garden bird' before...they are birds that frequent gardens, just because they do it doesnt mean they are any less 'wild'... Garden birds | BTO - British Trust for Ornithology,

no a domestic species isnt indiginous to anywhere, they dont live anywhere in the wild...unless they have gone feral.

.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> exactly this is basically what ive been saying all along.
> 
> .


Eh I must have been reading someone else's posts then, because I thought you were saying it was up to other people to look after their own cats and that you had no moral responsibility in the matter at all.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

chillminx said:


> Eh I must have been reading someone else's posts then, because I thought you were saying it was up to other people to look after their own cats and that you had no moral responsibility in the matter at all.


i was applying what you said to the way i feel about wildlife and taking responsiblity for our pets and ensuring they arnt a nuisance to anybody

.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> i apologise if you havent heard the term 'garden bird' before...they are birds that frequent gardens, just because they do it doesnt mean they are any less 'wild'... Garden birds | BTO - British Trust for Ornithology,
> 
> no a domestic species isnt indiginous to anywhere, they dont live anywhere in the wild...unless they have gone feral.
> 
> .


You are being deliberately condescending.
Garden birds are no longer living in their NATURAL environment. Even though we do not own them, they have grown dependent on us for providing a sheltered environment, just like cows, horses, sheep and cats.

DOGS are domestic, cats are domesticATED, there is a great difference!!!!!

Sorry for you if you cannot see that.

And I am not going to reply to any more of this, for it is becoming very much a troll thread, intended to wind up cat lovers.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> You are being deliberately condescending.
> Garden birds are no longer living in their NATURAL environment. Even though we do not own them, they have grown dependent on us for providing a sheltered environment, just like cows, horses, sheep and cats.
> 
> DOGS are domestic, cats are domesticATED, there is a great difference!!!!!
> ...


well im not trying to be.

but they are still WILD....so no not like cows,horses,sheep and cats...who are All DOMESTICATED.

lol cats and dogs are both domesticated species.

im glad to hear you wont be responding, but just because i have strong views it doesnt make me a troll and im also a cat lover 

.

.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Jiskefet said:


> And I am not going to reply to any more of this, for it is becoming very much a troll thread, intended to wind up cat lovers.


I do hope that you are not including me in your ramblings about troll thread and winding up cat lovers.
I am a cat person and have been for many years.I also care deeply for wildlife and will, when I see the need,defend both.


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## Alfride (May 19, 2011)

Jiskefet said:


> You are being deliberately condescending.
> Garden birds are no longer living in their NATURAL environment. Even though we do not own them, they have grown dependent on us for providing a sheltered environment, just like cows, horses, sheep and cats.
> 
> DOGS are domestic, cats are domesticATED, there is a great difference!!!!!
> ...


Yes, I agree she is condescending - also a random, immature and fanatical cat-hater. lol

I am not going to waste anymore time on her.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Alfride said:


> Yes, I agree she is condescending - also a random, immature and fanatical cat-hater. lol
> 
> I am not going to waste anymore time on her.


i dont mind being called names lol...but i wont be called a cat hater just because im passionate about wildlfe!!! ....hardly the actions of a cat hater is it??

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/8848-help-poorly-cat.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/9273-biopsy-results.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/rainbow-bridge/134790-smudge-xxx.html

.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Alfride said:


> Yes, I agree she is condescending - also a random, immature and fanatical cat-hater. lol
> 
> I am not going to waste anymore time on her.


That is totally uncalled for


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2012)

I never used to think much about it, but 2 of my cats have been knocked over and had to be put to sleep so I voted no as I will never allow any of my cats go out again.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

buffie said:


> That is totally uncalled for


Agreed


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

scatchy said:


> For me allowing my cat out is not about exercise it is about freedom. If the cat is on a lead it still has no freedom of choice. It goes out when the owner decides, for as long as the owners decides and can only go where the owner allows.
> The more I think about it the more I dislike the trends in modern pet keeping.
> *Whatever people say if an animal is never allowed out alone(or off the lead alone) it is a prisoner or slave. *
> The concept that one species should keep another animal species captive and under total control like this, particularly when the only reason is for *their own pleasure i*s both questionable and in my opinion undesirable.
> ...


I am sorry, but I find this extremely offensive. I certainly do not keep my cats confined for my own pleasure. It is at times jolly inconvenient for me, requires a lot of extra work (extra playtimes, harness walks, litter changes). It would be much easier for me to just let them roam. Regarding your last point: like it or not, cats are not human. They like routine, they love knowing what is going to happen at what time every day. I certainly don't think that they consider themselves to be prisoners or slaves. You make indoor cats sound as if they are all desperately trying to claw their way out into the street. Well, they are not. They come in voluntarily from the garden every evening without me even having to call them. It is a wonderful shared bond we have, and something I think that owners of "free" cats are missing out on (IMO). I keep my cats confined to keep them safe from the very real dangers outside. I work with feral cats: it is a really crap life to live completely outdoors: I really do not think they enjoy their "freedom"" all that much.


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## egyptianreggae (May 26, 2012)

I'm currently having a bit of a laugh at the thought that as the owner of two indoor cats, I control everything they do. I'm lucky if I can control one thing Tiny does a day. All I can do is make suggestions and hope they're taken up


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

For those with indoor cats, are you always worried they might escape somehow? We kept these 2 in for 4 weeks so they could get used to their new home but in those 4 weeks I was always on edge worrying incase they escaped. If I had to answer the door it was a frantic mission to locate the cats and try and lock them in somewhere. 

Ironically they never showed much interest in escaping until they went out on their harnesses and got a taste for the outside 

Having an indoor cat in the future is a possibility but I dont want to be constantly worried 24/7. Its more relaxing knowing that my cats are allowed out and will come back but then you do have the worries that they might get into trouble...


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## Mo1959 (Mar 31, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> Ironically they never showed much interest in escaping until they went out on their harnesses and got a taste for the outside


I think this sentence sums it up to some extent. What they have never had, they never really miss.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2012)

koekemakranka said:


> I am sorry, but I find this extremely offensive. I certainly do not keep my cats confined for my own pleasure. It is at times jolly inconvenient for me, requires a lot of extra work (extra playtimes, harness walks, litter changes). It would be much easier for me to just let them roam. Regarding your last point: like it or not, cats are not human. They like routine, they love knowing what is going to happen at what time every day. I certainly don't think that they consider themselves to be prisoners or slaves. You make indoor cats sound as if they are all desperately trying to claw their way out into the street. Well, they are not. They come in voluntarily from the garden every evening without me even having to call them. It is a wonderful shared bond we have, and something I think that owners of "free" cats are missing out on (IMO). I keep my cats confined to keep them safe from the very real dangers outside. I work with feral cats: it is a really crap life to live completely outdoors: I really do not think they enjoy their "freedom"" all that much.


Agreed, my moggie used to go out as she had been doing it long before I got her, she has now had to be pts  after being hit by a car. My British don't go out and have never been outside except in a carrier/lead


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## Alfride (May 19, 2011)

koekemakranka said:


> I am sorry, but I find this extremely offensive. I certainly do not keep my cats confined for my own pleasure. It is at times jolly inconvenient for me, requires a lot of extra work (extra playtimes, harness walks, litter changes). It would be much easier for me to just let them roam. Regarding your last point: like it or not, cats are not human. They like routine, they love knowing what is going to happen at what time every day. I certainly don't think that they consider themselves to be prisoners or slaves. You make indoor cats sound as if they are all desperately trying to claw their way out into the street. Well, they are not. They come in voluntarily from the garden every evening without me even having to call them.* It is a wonderful shared bond we have, and something I think that owners of "free" cats are missing out on (IMO).* I keep my cats confined to keep them safe from the very real dangers outside. I work with feral cats: it is a really crap life to live completely outdoors: I really do not think they enjoy their "freedom"" all that much.


Well two can play this game - I find this extremely offensive as well! Just as the notion that I am not a responsible owner as is apparently completely okay/normal to say on this forum!

Just so you know outdoor cats has routines as well. We just don't control them  they are intelligent enough to set up their own routine.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Alfride said:


> Well two can play this game - I find this *extremely offensive as well! *Just as the notion that I am not a responsible owner as is apparently completely okay/normal to say on this forum!
> 
> Just so you know outdoor cats has routines as well. We just don't control them  they are intelligent enough to set up their own routine.


Why? I was reacting to scatchy's assertion that indoor cats are "prisoners", "slaves", "battery chickens", which I found offensive. Where did I say you were an irresponsible owner? If you feel guilty about something, don't lay it on me....
No need to be patronising either. I am familiar with the ways of outdoor cats. My cats were allowed outdoors until after a number of worrying incidents, including a bad mauling and unhappy neighbours, made me decide that complete freedom for them is not an option in my particular circumstances. A decision I am happy with. You make it sound as if having "control" over an animal is a bad thing???


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## $hAzZa (May 2, 2010)

The indoor vs outdoor threads almost ALWAYS result in major fall outs...


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

I've put no because even though I live in a quiet rural village I have seen/heard of *many* cats 

- killed on road
- killed on train track
- killed in the docks
- poisoned by someone in the village
- attacked by dogs
- a while back travellers were stealing cats for bait in dog fights/selling on pedigrees they stole (they were caught and arrested for it so not just rumour)
- killed/badly injured by entire toms (my next door neighbour's 4 year old tom has killed at least 2 cats, their previous one killed 5-6 over the years)

there's also the disease and injuries from fighting with the rats by the canals - loads of free roaming cats round here are *constantly* being treated for abscesses due to the rat bites.

And there's consideration for neighbours - just as I'm responsible for where my dogs defecate I think I'm responsible for my cats - why should *other* people be inconvenienced by their mess or put at risk of cat faeces on their veg plots or in kiddies play areas? I don't want them going on *my* herbs/veg so why should they go on other people's?

If living *truly* rural ie on a farm or similar where my cats would be a long distance from neighbours and therefore no risk of being a nuisance then I *may* let them roam - as it is they *do* have a pen for outside access, exercise and display natural behaviours

however I wouldn't tell people they cant let their cat roam - it's an individual choice, I just think over the next few decades we will probably see it become 'normal' for them to be indoor only or at least restricted to their owner's property


on a side note - 2 of my cats are rescue ex feral and one is a rescued stray - only 1 was raised indoor only. Indy (the one raised indoor only) is the one that will walk out into the garden with me while I hang laundry out or put out rubbish and come back in (he walks to heel lol) the others really couldn't care less


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## Midnight13 (Jun 20, 2012)

Mo1959 said:


> I think this sentence sums it up to some extent. What they have never had, they never really miss.


My two look at me when I open the door as if to say

_'WOAH look Nelson, that weird big rectangle has appeared again!'_
'There are smells and noises and moving things through it Bumble!'
_'Nelson! Let's run away! Argh!_
'Close the weird rectangle hoomin, close it!' *butt*

Which is funny because they love to sit on the windowsill and watch - I guess it's a bit like suddenly being able to walk into your TV :lol:

It is harder work having an indoor - I mean I'm found running around with a piece of beef on a string at 1am exercising the pair of them :crazy:

I'm kind of sad this thread got mean. But I can see why it would.


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## Midnight13 (Jun 20, 2012)

IndysMamma said:


> - a while back travellers were stealing cats for bait in dog fights/selling on pedigrees they stole (they were caught and arrested for it so not just rumour)


This happens routinely here - we have certain types of people who breed certain types of dogs for certain types of entertainment  cats are often used to liven up the 'entertainment' 

Once one of the dogs got free and was in our garden. I had to get past it with the kids, somehow I did but it launched itself at our door afterwards and our windows  frothing at the mouth, it was huge, some kind of dobe/rottie/crazy combo of big dogs cross. Grampa came to visit and it attacked him, he had to get back into his car. The police came and took it away.

We've had a run of kids attacked as well, some really severely.

If there are dogs in the neighbourhood willing and able to have a good go at killing me, I'm not going to be letting a cat out there 

Edit: I don't let my kids out either!


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Well, the poll as it stands says 52% do not think cats should be allowed to roam and only 33 % say yes they should be allowed to roam. 16% are "neutral". If democracy means that the majority is right, then.......


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## Alfride (May 19, 2011)

koekemakranka said:


> Why? I was reacting to scatchy's assertion that indoor cats are "prisoners", "slaves", "battery chickens", which I found offensive. Where did I say you were an irresponsible owner? If you feel guilty about something, don't lay it on me....
> No need to be patronising either. I am familiar with the ways of outdoor cats. My cats were allowed outdoors until after a number of worrying incidents, including a bad mauling and unhappy neighbours, made me decide that complete freedom for them is not an option in my particular circumstances. A decision I am happy with. You make it sound as if having "control" over an animal is a bad thing???


You think I am patronising  well I think you are extremely patronising and offensive as well. You claim you have stronger bond with your cat than I have had/have with my cats  please based on what? Rosie also comes to the house every time I call her. So did my old cat, who I also took out for walks every single day. Rosie sleeps in my bed and she wakes me up by licking me in the face. She also likes to go for a walk  she follows me voluntarily (no leash) and the bond I had with my boy was even stronger and more incredible, and he was very much an outdoor boy. He never got hurt from the outdoor life.

As for me feeling guilty (again patronising) I can assure you that you are completely mistaken  I searched long and hard to find a place right next to a huge forest so Rosie can have plenty of nature to play in. This is not a convenient place for me to live in but I gladly commute so she can have a wonderful outdoor space to be in.

Having some control is fine but controlling every aspect of a cat's life  locking it up, keeping it from fresh air and sunshine I find problematic.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> Tell me, Noushka, should we keep our cows, sheep and horses in our living rooms, too????
> They are just as domesticated as our cats, and dogs DO tend to go after them, too. Sheep worrying by dogs is a very real issue in great parts of Europe......


i missed this last night...and i cant make my mind up if youre being serious lol

but here goes....cows,sheep and horses tend to be kept safely behind fences, like practically every other domestic animal they arnt just left to their own devices!!.. they are kept safe from hazards and dont cause a nuisance to anyone...also they dont really pose much danger to wild life either.

so no it would be silly to keep them in our living rooms....yes some dogs do worry sheep... which is why ALL responsible dog owners keep them on lead if they think them a danger.

.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Alfride said:


> You think I am patronising  well I think you are extremely patronising and offensive as well. *You claim you have stronger bond with your cat than I have had/have with my cats  please based on what? *
> 
> Where did I claim that? I wasn't even responding to you! I don't understand why you are being so defensive.Rosie also comes to the house every time I call her. So did my old cat, who I also took out for walks every single day. Rosie sleeps in my bed and she wakes me up by licking me in the face. She also likes to go for a walk  she follows me voluntarily (no leash) and the bond I had with my boy was even stronger and more incredible, and he was very much an outdoor boy. He never got hurt from the outdoor life Then you were very lucky indeed
> Having some control is fine but controlling every aspect of a cat's life  locking it up, keeping it from fresh air and sunshine I find problematic. Where did I say they got no fresh air or sunshine? My cats have access to a fenced openaired patio and supervised access to a catproofed garden. In this country, with 2 white cats, they run a real risk of skin cancer if they are outdoors. Yet another reason for keeping them indoors.


 I think it is really way OTT to try and make indoor cat owners out to be merciless jailers.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2012)

I voted yes (and this as someone who only let her cat out after many years as an indoor only cat)

However, I should say that cat proofing the garden is IMO the best solution.


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## Alfride (May 19, 2011)

koekemakranka said:


> I think it is really way OTT to try and make indoor cat owners out to be merciless jailers.


You said *It is a wonderful shared bond we have, and something I think that owners of "free" cats are missing out on (IMO).* Please read your own post.

No, I wasn't lucky. Plenty of outdoor cats grow old in my neighbourhood. When they die it is of old age or illnesses (cancer, kidney, liver, heart failure). I have never heard of a cat in my neighbourhood that have been hit by a car, poisoned or mistreated by people. People appreciate the cats' nature and their mouse catching skills and they respect their right to roam. From the horror stories on this board about what happens to cats I think I might just live in a more civilised society  lucky me and Rosie.

You asked me about control (read your own post again). I said that I find it to be problematic when controlling every aspect of a cat's life and not giving it access to fresh air and sunshine etc. (of course if the cat is white and has a high risk of skin cancer you must protect it from the sun). I never said that your cats don't have access to fresh air / sunshine. That you have a run / cat-proof garden for your cats is amazing. Not all cats are that lucky.

Some cats will accept an indoor life but in my experience cats are happier outdoor. I have never meet a happy cat that lived indoor without any access to fresh air. I feel that if you keep a cat that has a strong desire to go outside from the outdoor life, this is cruel. If you choose to do that you are a jailer.

*A general note:* Saying that a cat doesn't know what it is missing if kept inside its whole life is nonsense  it is self-deception. You can't suppress a cat's instincts  it is in its DNA. Some of us might breed it out of them but we haven't gotten to the moggies yet and probably we won't because they aren't pretty and special enough.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I voted neutral because it depends on the circumstances, as did most people who voted neutral. Meaning that if it is safe enough to let them out, the neutral voters do like them to have that freedom.
The score, therefore, is just about even.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Alfride said:


> You said *It is a wonderful shared bond we have, and something I think that owners of "free" cats are missing out on (IMO).* Please read your own post.
> I did, I said *IMO* in...my...opinion... or is that not allowed?
> No, I wasn't lucky. Plenty of outdoor cats grow old in my neighbourhood. When they die it is of old age or illnesses (cancer, kidney, liver, heart failure). I have never heard of a cat in my neighbourhood that have been hit by a car, poisoned or mistreated by people. *People appreciate the cats' nature and their mouse catching skills and they respect their right to roam.From the horror stories on this board about what happens to cats I think I might just live in a more civilised society  lucky me and Rosie.* Yes, indeed, you are lucky, as I said. In my case, there is not quite the same level of concern about animal welfare or "civilisation" where I live
> I have never meet a happy cat that lived indoor without any access to fresh air. How many have you met?
> *A general note:* Saying that a cat doesn't know what it is missing if kept inside its whole life is nonsense  it is self-deception. You can't suppress a cat's instincts  it is in its DNA. Some of us might breed it out of them but we haven't gotten to the moggies yet and probably we won't because they *aren't pretty and special enough*. What do you mean? All 3 my cats are rescue mogs, one an ex-feral who won't leave the garden or house to be "free" for love or money. My cats are all pretty and special to me.




I think we should just agree to disagree then.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

koekemakranka said:


> They come in voluntarily from the garden every evening without me even having to call them. It is a wonderful shared bond we have, and something I think that owners of "free" cats are missing out on (IMO). I keep my cats confined to keep them safe from the very real dangers outside. I work with feral cats: it is a really crap life to live completely outdoors: I really do not think they enjoy their "freedom"" all that much.


So they are not confined indoors all the time then if they come in voluntarily from the garden. They have a choice, presumably, if they are in or out.
Feral cats are not relevant to the issue. Just because a cat is allowed free range doesn't mean it is living outdoors all the time. In winter my cats stay in most of the time.

I do not agree that a cat should be forced to live it's whole life indoors if it does not want to, even so I am not seeking to take that right away from people, it is a matter for your own conscience, but neither do I want my right to allow my cat to roam taken away from me.
Before deciding if you really think this is a good idea think of the implications.
Once that happens people will be lobbying for lots more control measures on both cats and dogs, so be careful what you wish for.
And remember although the majority of people on here voted against allowing cats to roam if you asked the public as a whole you could get a very different answer.
I can't see every cat owner either keeping their cats indoors or fencing their gardens in, so be prepared to fund a few hundred more cats homes when people decide it is not conveneient to keep them any more.

If you find my assertion that a cat that is never allowed out is a prisoner offensive then please supply another word that describes that situation. 
I thought a prisoner was just that - someone/thing locked up without the ability to leave. Or do you know a different meaning?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> Asia, Africa and Europe had large populations of wild cat.
> The only continents they are not indiginous are America and Australia.
> 
> Wildcat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


oh my goodness im going to have to stop finding these posts, the Wildcat is a species in its own right, i dont even think its the ancestor of our domestic cat?.....this is another reason why conservationists are extremely concerned about free roaming domestic cats because they are hybridising with Wildcats ...and in Scotland i know they are now capturing and neutering hybrids, the domestic cat is actually a huge threat to the survival of this species.

.


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## Alfride (May 19, 2011)

koekemakranka said:


> I think we should just agree to disagree then.


Yes, it is allowed to say something in your opinion just as it is allowed for me to be offended by your opinion  you also got offended by scatchy's opinions. I don't see what IMO changes. Maybe I am missing something?

The general note meant that it wasn't for you. Wonderful that you have moggies. My moggies are special and pretty to me as well. Let's just leave it at that then.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> oh my goodness im going to have to stop finding these posts, the Wildcat is a species in its own right, i dont even think its the ancestor of our domestic cat?.....this is another reason why conservationists are extremely concerned about free roaming domestic cats because they are hybridising with Wildcats ...and in Scotland i know they are now capturing and neutering hybrids, the domestic cat is actually a huge threat to the survival of this species.
> 
> .


You don't thionk it is the ancestor of the domestic cat?????
I think you don't think AT ALL.

They not descended from the wildcat, the ARE one and the same species, a species called Felis silvestris.
Please go back to primary school and follow basic biology.

YES, they are neutering ferals and semi-feral cats all over Europe, because they are too many too close together and get inbred The rescues cannot find good homes for all the kittens they rescue, and many inbred kittens are sick or deformed. Besides, we have chased away all the cat's natural enemies, in several conuntries along with the european wildcat itself. Theferal domesticated cats have usurped the natural place of the wildcat in Holland and Germany. because of the greater stretches of woods disappearing
But the reason for neutering is NOT that they are a danger. If they were a danger, they would be killed, not neutered.

And about sheep and cattle:

I am deadly serious.
You don't know the first thing about the situation in Europe, dogs worrying sheep is a very real issue in the UK. There ARE no fences like Australian the dingo fence in Europe, every dog can simply cross the wire fences and stone walls used to keep cattle and sheep in.
The occasions of sheep being bitten to death and entire flocks of sheep miscarrying and losing their lambs because they go into shock after having been chased by the dog of a passer-by are well documented.
We also have regular occurrences of horses and cattle bolting and breaking loose due to dogs chasing after them
So, yes, I am deadly serious, and you'd better start getting your facts straight before having an opinion about the situation in Europe, for you haven't got a clue.


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

What about if you have a rather thick cat? My Thomas, is like a male model... rather handsome but totally clueless. 
Is it better for me to let him out to certainly get flattened by a car?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

By the way, the wildcat will probably be brought back to the woods. 
The wolf was extinct too, and they have brought THEM back to the woods of Germany, and- I believe - France.
They even re-introduced bears to the pyrenees.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

jo-pop said:


> What about if you have a rather thick cat? My Thomas, is like a male model... rather handsome but totally clueless.
> Is it better for me to let him out to certainly get flattened by a car?


Most people have been saying all along *that it all depends on the situation and on the cat. *Nobody is saying cats should be roaming the streets all day long, or that you need to let your cat our onto a busy road.
No-one would be telling Midnight to let her one-eyed brain-damaged cat onto the street.

But some cats simply cannnot get used to being cooped up inside, they need a bigger territory than a house and tiny garden can provid, and long for social interaction with other cats.

Connor still isn't allowed to go outside either. He is too young, too distractable and impulsive, so I don't trust him outside, yet, not even in my quiet neighbourhood.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> There are no more cats with free roam now than there was when I was growing up


I've come back to this thread after a couple of days and reading through this comment caught my eye. All I can say is you are very lucky. I live in what the estate agents like to call a 'popular village' in that property attracts a premium compared with surrounding areas. Building has however been allowed and the population has doubled in the last 20 years. A small development of 7 houses close to my own has resulted in an increase of 5 roaming cats in the last couple of years alone.

Over one or two generations the way we live has changed completely. There are very few extended families sharing accommodation any more. This is what led to the constant demand for more housing and you therefore end up with 2 or 3 households where there was once one. All this argument over whether it's humans stealing environments or increasing numbers of free roaming cats causing the problems is ridiculous because it's the combination of both. One tends to follow from the other.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

"God loved the birds and invented trees. Man loved the birds and invented cages."
Jacques Deval


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

havoc said:


> All this argument over whether it's humans stealing environments or increasing numbers of free roaming cats causing the problems is ridiculous because it's the combination of both. One tends to follow from the other.


You forget one aspect: Especially in rural villages in the country, cats used to be kept as mousers, and were fed very little, otherwise they would not catch enough vermin. They were earning their keep by catching their own food. Present-day cats are being fed, even over-fed, by their humans, and will therefore catch farr less prey than a cat that is being kept as a mouser.

So even if there is a greater number of cats, it will hardly result in a greater number of prey....


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Jiskefet said:


> You don't thionk it is the ancestor of the domestic cat?????
> I think you don't think AT ALL.
> 
> They not descended from the wildcat, the ARE one and the same species, a species called Felis silvestris.
> Please go back to primary school and follow basic biology.


Cat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

buffie said:


> Cat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Felis silvestris catus
Felis silvestris is the species, catus is the SUBspecies.

The notion that the domestic cat was a separate species, Felis domesticus, is obsolete.

So they are indeed the same species.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Since cats were cult animals in ancient Egypt, they were commonly believed to have been domesticated there,[12] but there may have been instances of domestication as early as the Neolithic.[13]* A genetic study in 2007 revealed that all house cats are descended from as few as five female African Wildcats (Felis silvestris lybica) *c. 8000 BCE, in the Middle East.[12][14] Cats are currently the most popular pet in the world, now found almost everywhere in the world

The reason for the post was purely to show the "domestic cats" ancestors.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jiskefet said:


> You don't thionk it is the ancestor of the domestic cat?????
> I think you don't think AT ALL.
> 
> They not descended from the wildcat, the ARE one and the same species, a species called Felis silvestris.
> ...


Oh dear im almost embarrassed for ya just because they share the same genus it doesnt make them the same species.

No longer considered a member of the wildcat family the domestic cat nevertheless comes directly from it . Descended directly from the Near Eastern wildcat its distribution around the world by mankind has seen African, Asian and European genes bred into the bloodline as well as some other species such as the Asian leopard cat. Still closely related enough to produce fertile offspring in matings with any of its wild cousins, this most successful species of cat, the only one to learn how to utilise the planet's dominant species to its own advantage, is now their greatest threat.

The wildcat family; European, African, Asiatic, near eastern and Chinese mountain cat

do you think i think its acceptable to allow dogs to worry sheep or something??????

imo all pets should be under control including dogs.
.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

As expected there has been a lot of heated debate on this topic and I think it has gone on for long enough. I am going to close it now.


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