# Over breeding



## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

I think my youngest cat may be the product of over breeding, but im not too sure. Lately we have found she has some defects that are becoming more apparent over time. Could someone tell me the mental and physical defects that come as part of being over bred? Thanks for any help


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

You're going to have to be a bit more specific. Over breeding to me means breeding too much, too often from one cat. This would lead to the girl being in poor condition but not inherited defects.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Exactly. Overbreeding affects the mother, not the kitten!

liz


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Perhaps the OP means inbreeding?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

This is probably a dim question&#8230; but if a queen has been used in back to back breeding, and hasn&#8217;t had adequate (or any) time to recover between litters&#8230; would her kittens still be healthy? I mean I can understand that back to back breeding will really screw up a queen &#8230; I just can&#8217;t imagine that her offspring would be healthy. If the mother&#8217;s body is running on empty, wouldn&#8217;t that be reflected in the kittens? I obviously dint mean genetic defects&#8230; just general poor ill health in the kittens. Low body weight etc. 

(this is what I often think with mothers I have had from shelters&#8230; that it&#8217;s probably their 3rd litter in a year or something&#8230; but I know bad diet and street life takes a terrible toll on cats). 

To the OP&#8230; this is NOT a reply to you&#8230; I know zero about this or breeding as whole &#8230;. just trying to learn something myself


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't think you're wrong Tje but I'd imagine it would more likely lead to stillbirths or undersized kittens which didn't thrive/survive. Even then this would be a fairly extreme situation. The mother's body would be the one which really suffers, foetuses are very selfish entities.


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## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

I was meaning the mother not being given a rest between breeding sessions, I've seen cases before of the offspring having health defects due to this. I have no knowledge in the subject itself really, It was just a possible theory out of many we have, another being inbreeding, the breeder we received the kitten from seemed not to be giving the females a rest, and could possibly have inbreeding also going on.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I've seen cases before of the offspring having health defects due to this


What sort of thing? I'd have thought it would be the sort of thing that showed up while they were still very young but I am guessing.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Lovehatetragedy said:


> I was meaning the mother not being given a rest between breeding sessions, I've seen cases before of the offspring having health defects due to this. I have no knowledge in the subject itself really, It was just a possible theory out of many we have, another being inbreeding, the breeder we received the kitten from seemed not to be giving the females a rest, and could possibly have inbreeding also going on.


I don't see how it can be due to this. The babies simply take what they need. You would have to have something as extreme as starvation to actually affect the kittens. I am not aware of any evidence that overbred queens produce less milk. I think it is far far more likely that you have a genetic issue or perhaps something connected with infection - what exactly are the issues with your cat?

Liz


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think overbreeding and health problems are linked in that the breeders who tend to do this, are not good at other aspects of breeding either, so you probably will find inbreeding, the breeding of cats with genetic defects, the lack of interest in health testing and increased infection rates associated with a "bad" cattery.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> so you probably will find inbreeding, the breeding of cats with genetic defects, the lack of interest in health testing and increased infection rates


These are 3/4 different issues which *may* give rise to different problems. Inbreeding causes problems only if the problem is a recessive gene which is doubled up (simply put I know). Many moggies are probably more inbred than people think as it's very likely that a roaming tom mainly impregnates his own offspring. Galling as it is for those of us who check pedigrees down to the nth detail before agreeing a mating most roaming mogs seem to get away with it.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

havoc said:


> Many moggies are probably more inbred than people think as it's very likely that a roaming tom mainly impregnates his own offspring. Galling as it is for those of us who check pedigrees down to the nth detail before agreeing a mating most roaming mogs seem to get away with it.


As has probably happened to one of my moggy Cuba's kittens (born last year) who went to a nice family next-door.... and who failed to spay her (grrrrrr!). She's Tortie with a little white; her father's mainly white with a few black patches, and is prime candidate for being dad to his daughter's litter. I hate to say it, but they are going to be stunning babies if so - tortie & whites with lots of white & clear patches, possibly blue tortie & whites as well. I doubt very much they will be born with two heads or anything sinister, though.

Farm-bred cats are probably the most inbred of all, with colonies on isolated farms rarely having a chance to outbreed.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> I don't think you're wrong Tje but I'd imagine it would more likely lead to stillbirths or undersized kittens which didn't thrive/survive. Even then this would be a fairly extreme situation. The mother's body would be the one which really suffers, foetuses are very selfish entities.


Thanks Havoc, that ties in with what I see with my waif mothers ... (still births and undersized)


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## Kringle (May 14, 2010)

Hi..I've just been watching this thread hoping to get an answer to something I have been wanting to know. I'm just starting breeding my Himalayans..Holly had her first litter July 16. I don't want to intrude on this thread , but if someone could just let me know and anyone else reading this who might be interested also..How often do you breed your females ? I have read that it depends on the female and her health and if she goes into 3 straight heats to breed her..I had someone else tell me that you should only breed once or twice a year..can someone just give me their input on this ? Thank you


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

It is said to be better for 1 litter per year but you have to go with the cat. The maximum is 3 litters in 2 years with 17 weeks between registering litters.

It works out around every 8 months-is! depending on each cat.


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## princessa rags (Apr 30, 2010)

hi kringle i would recomend once a year myself...but if the queen loses alot of weight when calling your doing her more harm letting her call every few weeks.but i feel for my girl as she is a pet first before breeding so i like her to have a break ...as she isnt a breeding machine lol xx hows your babies doing have the colours come out more now


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

You really do have to balance out the toll of constant calling against letting her have a litter. I have had one gap of only 9 months between two litters from one queen but that evened itself out the next time round and we had a nice long break of 16 months. It worked that way because she used to take a summer break from calling so time of year when a litter was born made a huge difference.


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## Kringle (May 14, 2010)

Okay..thanks for your help..

Princessa ..Holly babies are doing great. Yes..I am 100% sure they are torties and of course females. One is still darker than the other..Their points will be darker than blue..so might as well say..around the seal color..How are your little new ones doing ? Can you see some color already ? Holly's showed greyish the day after they were born. 

So does this mean since Holly had her first litter in July..I shouldn't allow her to breed again till Feb- March ? Does this sound about right ? My male can't get near them now..he has his own space..lol.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Milly22 said:


> It is said to be better for 1 litter per year but you have to go with the cat. The maximum is 3 litters in 2 years with 17 weeks between registering litters.
> 
> It works out around every 8 months-is! depending on each cat.


No I don't think so - though trying to find this out from the GCCF is like trying to find the proverbial needle in the haystack! It's 17 weeks between births. And that means you can in fact have three litters a year from one female without falling foul of GCCF rules.

However, many clubs have a 3 litters in 2 years rule and so does FIFe.

Liz


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## princessa rags (Apr 30, 2010)

yes kringle that about rite march....yeah my babies are doing ok i have a blue colourpoint boy a blue tortie bicolour girl and a cream boy but not sure what point or bicolour...the 2 boys are gaining weight really well the boys are 156g and 177g but the girl isnt doing aswell she is only 135g ive had to start topping her up so not good really every 2 hours but she seems strong but she is daintier than the boys so fingers cross she gains some more tonite just not much sleep for me


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

lizward said:


> No I don't think so - though trying to find this out from the GCCF is like trying to find the proverbial needle in the haystack! It's 17 weeks between births. And that means you can in fact have three litters a year from one female without falling foul of GCCF rules.
> 
> Liz


Yes, that is what I meant. So they have no 3 litters in 2 years rule?

I cannot find any rule/regulation and only found out what I have through googling it and coming back this threads like this?

Bengals have a 19 week gap minimum (found that).


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## Kringle (May 14, 2010)

Aww Princessa.. I hope she will be okay. Maybe she's just small and will pick up soon. I will keep my fingers crossed.


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## princessa rags (Apr 30, 2010)

i hope so....she will only suckle off the teats under the armpit and the next 2..i keep giving her nutridrops and a bit of kitty stim so i hope she starts 2 put more weight on....


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Milly22 said:


> Yes, that is what I meant. So they have no 3 litters in 2 years rule?


No they don't.

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

lizward said:


> No they don't.
> 
> Liz


Oh just the 17 weeks thing?

I wondered why I can never find it *anywhere* ?


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

I find the GCCF website very confusing, maybe its just me! And i don't seem to get a response when I email them questions  well not a quick one so far anyway!


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

If a cat is pregnant she is pregnant for around 65 days, the kittens leave at 13-14 weeks so that is approximately 23 weeks in all.

Corners can be cut, the kittens are weaned and separated from the mum at 4-8 weeks and the mum is put back in kitten as soon as she has her first call so the number of litters is maximised.

I think it is immaterial whether it is 17 weeks or 19 weeks, there is little rest and recuperation for the queen especially if she has had to produce and feed a large litter.

There is great pressure put on breeders from old lags to churn out litters as fast as possible, under the fear of pyometra, but in reality there is no need to do this. 
Cats in the main are quite capable of going for long periods of time without having kittens in order to have a rest between litters, so the only reason for churning out kittens more frequently is money. IMO


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Cats in the main are quite capable of going for long periods of time without having kittens in order to have a rest between litters, so the only reason for churning out kittens more frequently is money.


A little harsh  There is a real fashion for quoting the 'no more than three calls before mating' mantra as set in stone so I wouldn't blame a novice for taking this on board. Acting out of the fear of pyo is a bit different from acting out of greed.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

The three calls and then breeding is for maiden queens and doesn't apply usually to nursing girls.
I know breeders who have bred on the first call with kittens still suckling, with a girl having the maximum litters per year. This is not BYB but "reputable" registered ones. Often with highly desirable kittens and a waiting list.

There are many, many lovely breeders out there, however this "overbreeding" in my opinion is rife and is being perpetuated as being the norm, due to the added spur of "fear of pyo".


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The three calls and then breeding is for maiden queens and doesn't apply usually to nursing girls.


I haven't heard it was only for maidens, nor have I ever seen any written papers to support the idea. Susan Little is the only real expert on the subject I've read and she definitely doesn't support the idea that only maidens are at risk.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Yes, that is what I meant. So they have no 3 litters in 2 years rule?


I think they used to. I always believed it to be the case and I think it's been changed in the light of modern knowledge and expert veterinary opinion. In the days when the only treatment for pyo was spaying then rigid rules were in place. Nowadays it's a treatable condition, usually accompanied by strict instructions from a vet to mate the girl on her next call. The GCCF can't have rules which contradict veterinary advice


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think we are at cross purposes re pyo and overbreeding.

I am saying that many breeder's mantra are not scientifically based. Their desire to produce as many kittens as possible is "justified" by putting the fear of god into other breeders that there is a great risk of pyometra.

My point is that not many breeders are waiting three calls before mating their nursing queen.
The waiting "three calls before breeding" maiden queens was probably introduced to prevent the breeding of young immature queens on their first call, and not anything to do with pyo.


> "Clearly, avoidance of the CEH/pyometra complex in queens should be a focus of breeding programs. Breeders can accomplish this by choosing cats for breeding from reproductively healthy bloodlines and by interfering as little as possible with the normal reproductive patterns of cats, including avoiding the use of progestins to prevent estrus."
> Susan Little


Choosing queens that are not from lines that have a lot of pyometra in them would therefore be better than mating excessively or at increasingly young ages to try and prevent it.

Mating excessively or at very young ages tends also to increase the number of kittens surprisingly.


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## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

lizward said:


> I don't see how it can be due to this. The babies simply take what they need. You would have to have something as extreme as starvation to actually affect the kittens. I am not aware of any evidence that overbred queens produce less milk. I think it is far far more likely that you have a genetic issue or perhaps something connected with infection - what exactly are the issues with your cat?
> 
> Liz


She hasn't seemed to be walking or sitting properly, we've narrowed that down to one of her back legs. When she sits down it doesn't seem to co-ordinate with her other paws and it sticks out. We only really noticed when she was about 3 months. We've had her since she was 6 weeks, and we've never been aware of her being hurt in any way and seeing as shes a house cat so she can't really go outdoors where we can't see her. she has a strange problem with one of her eyes, it never actually seems to open properly but none of these things seem to particularly bother her. Her leg just makes her more clumsy and with her mad 5 minutes we have to take particular caution with her. When we took her for her first lot of injections the vet was against doing anything at that moment and just to keep an eye on her. This morning we booked her in for another check up and to be spayed, but there's really that worry there if you know how i mean. We haven't had much practice with cat health seeing as our first two cats have never had any issues, we don't want to rule anything out


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> The three calls and then breeding is for maiden queens and doesn't apply usually to nursing girls.
> I know breeders who have bred on the first call with kittens still suckling, with a girl having the maximum litters per year. This is not BYB but "reputable" registered ones. Often with highly desirable kittens and a waiting list.
> 
> There are many, many lovely breeders out there, however this "overbreeding" in my opinion is rife and is being perpetuated as being the norm, due to the added spur of "fear of pyo".


When would you feel safe to breed a girl who has no history of Pyo in her lineage, but has been brought into a breeding environment and been calling, for 1 week, since she was 14 weeks old, she is now 6 months and on another call.

Do you think I am endangering her ? I realise I may not be able to breed her for long if this continues.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

I dont think over breeding is the only issue, reputable breeders will keep their kittens until thirteen weeks old, vaccinate them, have them vet checked, to ensure your kitten reaches you in perfect health, you say you got your kitten at six weeks old, none of the above could of taken place

So any birth defects, or faults with the kitten may have gone un-noticed.
It is possible to talk about over breeding, line breeding, in breeding all day but if the breeder is willing to let a kitten go at six weeks un- vaccinated then they are capable of anything.

A reputable breeder will have their queens interests/health as his main priority, closely followed by their off spring.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> A reputable breeder will have their queens interests/health as his main priority, closely followed by their off spring.


They will, but what on earth is the definition of a breeder? It seems to be anything from a deeply caring hobbyist, through irresponsible pet owner and right out the other side to commercial kitten farmer on various threads.

If you get a kitten at 6 weeks old you don't get it from a breeder for goodness sake, not by my definition of the word anyway.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

I think the word breeder is like the word vendor. You aren't always it. A breeder isn't a breeder when they are having a bath or shopping in M&S.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> If you get a kitten at 6 weeks old you don't get it from a breeder for goodness sake, not by my definition of the word anyway.


My exact same thoughts... though I do notice on other posts in here when someone is talking about they got their 7 week old kitten from such and such a breeder... I do end up calling these ####wits breeders (purely for the sake of a better word). And they're not breeders. I just wish we had a set of terms that would mean .... you all who I like and whose breeding practices I like, are breeders... but what do I call the ####wits who rehome kittens and 6 and 7 weeks??? Even shelters don't do that (well, on the whole they don't, lol).

I feel it's a bit like calling a poacher a farmer because they both work the same piece of land... a proper breeder and someone who just churns out kittens without a care to their welfare... but as soon as you refer to them as BYB, people are on your case and telling you "well actually, they had a lovely spare bedroom where the kittens were kept" and I just feel like saying "yeah, and I bet they got about 11 minutes per day human contact in that lovely spare bedroom come kitten farm".


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Many, many years ago when such things were quite usual, my cat had several litters of kittens - I wouldn't have called myself a breeder then! Kittens were a consequence of having a female cat.
These days there is much more education towards the neutering of both sexes but those who chose not to go down that route are not necessarily breeders - just people for whom having kittens is a consequence of having a female cat, and quite a profitable one for many of them too!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> A breeder isn't a breeder when they are having a bath or shopping in M&S.


Oh yes I am! 

If I'm in the bath I'm probably thinking about a pedigree someone sent me and working out if their girl is OK to use my boy, or thinking about organising the next round of vaccinations etc etc.

Shopping, well that's real fun. Not possible to shop without getting sidetracked by "the cats would like that" or "those would be good for kitten packs". It should be illegal to site PAH near supermarkets and as for the 99p/£1 shops, well they should have a health warning for the cat crazy.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

The term breeder I agree is used very widely, And I know we have registered breeders,back yard breeders, hobby breeders etc.

And over the years I have heard of people going to so called registered breeders and byb, who are 'nt all they are supposed to be.

May'be the Gccf or Tica should employ someone to go around and check registered breeders and give them a star rating. Similar to a score on the doors for restaurants. It wont stop back yard breeders, but what it will do is push the standards. And also give potential owners piece of mind when looking for a kitten.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> check registered breeders


What's a registered breeder?


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> The term breeder I agree is used very widely, And I know we have registered breeders,back yard breeders, hobby breeders etc.
> 
> And over the years I have heard of people going to so called registered breeders and byb, who are 'nt all they are supposed to be.
> 
> May'be the Gccf or Tica should employ someone to go around and check registered breeders and give them a star rating. Similar to a score on the doors for restaurants. It wont stop back yard breeders, but what it will do is push the standards. And also give potential owners piece of mind when looking for a kitten.


I think registered/hobby are much the same, possibly.

I would like that and we should all get a certificate for it too. This would put a stop to a lot of things.....


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Milly22 said:


> I think registered/hobby are much the same, possibly.
> 
> I would like that and we should all get a certificate for it too. This would put a stop to a lot of things.....


I think some kind of star rating type of system would be a wonderful idea... but it would need policing ... you don't give a hotel 5 stars and never check back on it. I think a system like this would be great... but would cost an utter fortune and I think a lot of breeders therfore would be priced out of the market. But.... it would be a lovely idea...


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

It is a good idea but sadly GCCF are extremely poor so not viable!


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Hmmmm if I win the lottery I may give them some money. The damage people can do by gossip is utterly terrible, and this is without even visiting your premises,seeing your house/cats, meeting you in person........if breeders would just stick together life would be a happier place.

For some people, are Maine Coone breeders nice people ?

NAH..... forget that. lol


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Milly22 said:


> The damage people can do by gossip is utterly terrible, and this is without even visiting your premises,seeing your house/cats, meeting you in person........if breeders would just stick together life would be a happier place.


well firstly I am not a breeder. I rescue.

And I will readily admit to slagging breeders off when their offspring come to me a terrible state. I don't need to meet them in person/see their home/see their breeding queens or studs to know that they must be an extremelt crap "breeder" when they rehome an underweight 8 or 9 week old kitten, with no vaccs, no de worming, no defleaing etc etc.

And not just the ones who rehome to early and don't vacc, deworm and deflea... plenty of kittens are rehomed at a decent age but still don't tick half the boxes they should! I feel justified (heck morally obliged even) to give those "breeders" a very hard time.

I spoke to a breeder a few weeks ago (she's rehomed a terribly sick and underweight kitten)... she had never *heard* of weighing kittens or a vet check. She simply had no idea what the kitten weighed... she admitted that to me.

So sorry... I don't feel the need to see their homes and meet them before calling them utter numpties.

The last thing I would want to do is "stick together" with those types.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

*No rep allowed*

But I couldn't agree with your last sentance more.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

It would cost but again it costs to register or re-register cats etc maybe if there was a small cost added on to say prefixes or cat registration to cover costs

Then it could be achievable, or alternatively we have cat shows, why not a breeder comp, where it would cost to enter, have a Gccf steward/stewardess go round monitor breeders who have entered and have a winner takes all or prize money for first three.

They could award points for Record keeping, cat health,kitten health, Standards,Breed knowledge etc. i know doing it this way it wouldnt stop the bad breeding but it might be a fun aspect, and those willing to enter would defiantely up there standards and it would be a title worth having best Uk breeder. 

And on top of that imagine what it would be like to tell people you where placed in the top ten breeders in the Uk

Could be big ha ha


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

tellingtails said:


> It would cost but again it costs to register or re-register cats etc maybe if there was a small cost added on to say prefixes or cat registration to cover costs
> 
> Then it could be achievable, or alternatively we have cat shows, why not a breeder comp, where it would cost to enter, have a Gccf steward/stewardess go round monitor breeders who have entered and have a winner takes all or prize money for first three.
> 
> ...


Prices are already through the roof & already driving breeders to TICA & FIFE to cover the deficit. It's £75 for a prefix compared to $50 with TICA. :scared:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> Then it could be achievable


heyyy it's not that I don't like your idea, as a buyer... I think it's bloody brilliant... but I just don't think it's workable 

For the reasons (I think it was) Messyhearts just stated... plus it would get ohhhh so political and WWIII would break out every 5 minutes (which admittedly could be fun!  ). I can just imagine someone missing out on their 5 star ranking because their 17,000 quid cat-proofed garden didn't meet the examing person's personal taste, because they are more of a cat-run person. Then there are simple things like... well, not everyone is equally house proud. I have 3 breeder friends I visit regularly, 1 is just homely and normal and the odd sign of cat wear and tear on the furniture... an other has a house like a palace and a daily cleaner for a few hours every day to help keep the house tip top (but she does have a husband with a mega well paying job)... the 3rd... well she is not dirty (as such) and her kittens are very very well looked after and raised to a very high standard with all the love and affection in the world and they want for nothing ... but I shudder to drink a coffee in her house and I always wear old clothes when I go there as everything is covered in cm's of cat fur by the time I leave. But to be really honest... all 3 are top breeders (very responsible and very ethical) and produce kittens I would be proud to own. It's sooo hard IMO to distinguish betwen the "musts" and the "nice if you can afford them" things when it comes to breeding.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

tellingtails said:


> It would cost but again it costs to register or re-register cats etc maybe if there was a small cost added on to say prefixes or cat registration to cover costs
> 
> Then it could be achievable, or alternatively we have cat shows, why not a breeder comp, where it would cost to enter, have a Gccf steward/stewardess go round monitor breeders who have entered and have a winner takes all or prize money for first three.
> 
> ...


Love the idea, may write to GCCF tomorrow! ha! WW whatever would break out here. It wouls have to be random checking though, no clean pre clean up allowed. Not very early mornings thought as they poos lots at nighttime. After 10am would be fine.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

You are right it would be difficult to do, or police etc, but most things worthwhile are not always the easy thing to do.

It is easy to discuss all day everyday about ethics, about good breeders, byb etc. For owners, rescue centres worry about the growing number of problem cats etc.

If nothing is done to move towards solving the problem the problem will always remain, So maybe if more breeders said " This is the right thing to do" Instead of "Oh it would put the cost up" then maybe with every small step the problem might, start getting better.

At the end of the day, we all talk about the welfare of Cats and Kittens, but if we dont stand together and try to change things is there any point in discussing Good breeders/Bad breeders because in a way arent we just burying our heads.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I would stand with you!!! I have also drank half a bottle of fizzy wine with vimto but I am with you.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Some breed clubs used to at least check out the stud accommodation was up to a particular standard before they would list a stud. That's a much easier thing to do as you can have a tick box checklist for size of queens quarters etc. It relied on club members in the area being prepared to give up their time and I don't think people are prepared to do so any more. Very few new breeders join the clubs for anything more than to get their prefix forms signed these days.

Rating breeders is a much harder thing to do because it's so subjective. Just like all other breeders I know the best way is my way  I know houses that are an absoloute tip but the cats are cosseted and constantly pristine houses where I'm not so fond of the attitude to the animals. Most of us presumably fall somewhere in between and where is 'the line'?


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Breeding is,nt about the house or how expensive someones furniture is,or wether they have a premium postcode over a council estate, 

Its about the cats welfare producing healthy offspring and given them the best start, making sure they leave the best they can be, fully vaccinated,leaving to responsable vetted owners, so yes your idea will work and it would be easier.

The only problem is some people then take their queens to other breeders and then pay a stud fee, so they then potentially could go by off the radar.

I am all for any system which will make it better for cats /kittens welfare and harder for the byb,:thumbup:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> the 3rd... well she is not dirty (as such) and her kittens are very very well looked after and raised to a very high standard with all the love and affection in the world and they want for nothing ... but I shudder to drink a coffee in her house and I always wear old clothes when I go there as everything is covered in cm's of cat fur by the time I leave.


Hey, I don't recall your visit Tje! :lol:

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Who's going to do this checking and set the criteria? By what authority is some self-styled, quasi breeder police force going to demand entry into people's houses without invitation?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> It is easy to discuss all day everyday about ethics, about good breeders, byb etc. For owners, rescue centres worry about the growing number of problem cats etc.


Anything that would make a difference would require legislation because anything else is purely voluntary. My choice, make it illegal to charge money for kittens without a breeding licence. That licence could be created automatically by up to date membership of a cat/breed club (no extra regulatory body involved) Your club membership number would be your licence number and must be quoted in any ad. It would certainly stop people joining clubs just long enough to get a prefix to claim they are 'registered breeders' and then disappearing off the radar. Anyone who seriously believes they are 'breeders' of moggies can join area clubs, it doesn't have to be a pedigree breed club. Let those who don't spay their pets and have accidental litters go through a small upfont expense and a bit of admin or simply give the kittens away.

It's at club level that reputations are made and concerns can be addressed to the welfare officer. Buyers rarely know where to go if they've had a bad experience. They would with such a licence system and everybody in the country who sells kittens would be listed year on year. It would raise standards across the board.

Will it ever happen? Of course not. The irresponsible would be up in arms and screaming about their human rights.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

It was discussed at a serious level years ago, by various agencies, and it was decided then that Breeder licences were impossible to implement.

The prime example was the dog licence, hardly any owners ever got them, and it was found it was impossible to police.

One of the points raised during the discussions years ago, was at what point is the line drawn, does a falmer need to have a breeding licence for cattle and sheep who manages it, the minstry of agriculture, does he then need a seperate breeding licence for breeding his working sheep dogs and then who manages that.

Does a racing pidgeon fancier need to have a licence for breeding next years racing stock.

What about Rabbits, Gerbils , Reptiles etc What about them.

It was decided then that it was an impossible task to police, or implement such a impossible task. 

The Pet trade licence was then brought about to cover the sale of animals bound for the Pet trade every petshop owner must have one, along with all suppliers.

It did not contain any legislation for hobbyists, dog breeders, cat breeders etc
as the issuing authorities again knew it would be impossible to police or manage.

There are various animal welfare groups, who do a magnificent job trying to prevent cruelty, and improve animal welfare and yet they are still fighting a loosing battle, so how will a breeders licence, be any easier to implement than a star rating for breeders.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

The whole point of a star rating would be to give peace of mind to would be buyers, the star rating for restaurants dont make bad restaurants go away but it allows you to make an informed choice with whether to go oer not.Just as a breed licence would not make bad breeders go away.

Just think would be nice if all buyers had simalar choice, if you bought a car you look at service history etc, or buying a tv reviews etc, 

Why should buyers paying in excess of a weeks wages in somecases, not have the right to make an informed decision based on more than the time they spent at a breeders home. And be able to base there decision based on standards maintained and achieved.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Nothing could without a change in the law. Even then you could could only give star ratings to breeders who choose to be a part of your scheme. I'm not suggesting any new or extra licence for breeders. It would automatically be a part of breed or cat club membership. Done that way there is no extra tier, no worries about clipboard waving officialdom and it would simply be impossible for anyone to advertise a kitten for sale without proof of some committment to cats ie current membership of a club. Starting to make it any more official than that is opening a real can of worms. Hobby breeders are not traders and are not in business, nor do most wish to be. I'd hate to see an extra tier brought in that could be seen as some sort of trade organisation.


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