# Sticky  How unscrupulous breeders try to dupe potential buyers (and often succeed).



## Guest

I thought this would be helpful to share on the forum.

We've all seen the threads. Poster has bred or is going to breed their dogs, forum members ask about health tests, most fess up and say they don't have them, don't need them, some try to pretend that they do.

I want to talk about the latter kind and how it pertains to anyone looking to buy a puppy from a breeder.

After one of *those* threads, the poster contacted me via PM and demanded that I answer the original question. I basically told them to go pound sand, and stop BSing about those hip scores.
We went back and forth "yes my dogs are hip scored", "no they're not" a few times until finally poster produced a "certificate" with pertinent information blocked out.

I laughed (I'll explain why in a minute), but then I got to thinking how easy it would be to dupe someone who didn't know.

So, let's back up for a second. The reason breeders pay organizations like Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) and PennHip and the UK organizations for specialized testing for genetic disease is not just to be able to sell a dog who has been "health tested".
The reason for these organizations is to have a database where people interested in studying genetic conditions and disease have an accurate collection of data along with the pedigree information to study and in turn potentially find markers for disease and cures.

It's not about one dog, it's about having accurate data on multiple dogs through generations.

There is absolutely no reason why a responsible, ethical breeder would not want to give out their dog's OFA number so that a potential buyer could put that number in the OFA search and look at that dog's health tests and health tests of the pedigree behind the dog. None. Unless of course the breeder is lying.

Health certificates are pretty darned easy to fake. What isn't so easy to fake is the information on the public databases.
So if a breeder says "oh yes the dam and sire were health tested and both had excellent hips" but they don't have the certificate right now, or they lost the information or whatever, they're lying.
All you need is the dog's OFA number and that information is right there for anyone to see on the OFA database.
Forgot the OFA number? No problem, you can search by the dog's birthdate, breed, tests you're looking at, date of test, name of dog, all sorts of criteria. You can make the search as broad or as narrow as you like. And yes, they also list mixed breed dogs.
http://www.offa.org/search.html?action=new
There is a similar database on CHIC
http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/search.html

Here is the KC Health Test Finder 
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/

More and more unscrupulous breeders are trying to fake health tests, which I choose to see as a good thing because at least the health test info is getting out and more and more people are asking for them.
Now we need to educate buyers on confirming that those health tests are indeed real and valid.

Again, *a good breeder should have absolutely no issue producing evidence of health testing listed on a public database.
*
Oh, that "certificate" that made me laugh?
It was a score of excellent for a 10 month old bitch.
10 month olds don't get hip scores. They get preliminaries, and it will say preliminary on the certificate.
Preliminary certificates are also white in a portrait orientation. Final scores are on a blue certificate in landscape orientation. This certificate was blue in a landscape orientation. Not even a good fake.

However, just to be sure, I searched for a bitch of that breed born in that month. No prelims on record (and a score of excellent automatically gets put on record).
I also sent a quick message to a friend who just had preliminaries done on her male. Nope, it's a printout, not a certificate for prelims...

If buyers don't know to verify information via the available databases or have someone they trust to check information with, how easy is it for them to get duped by a fake certificate?


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## kittih

That's really useful information @ouesi

Perhaps if someone can add the other info you mentioned it would be good to have in a sticky ?


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## Moobli

Excellent post @ouesi

Here is the KC Health Test Finder 
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/


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## Guest

kittih said:


> That's really useful information @ouesi
> 
> Perhaps if someone can add the other info you mentioned it would be good to have in a sticky ?


Yes with @Moobli info added I'd love to see this be a sticky. 
@lymorelynn pretty please?


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## simplysardonic

Great post @ouesi, shame the rep button is no more!

I second this being made into a sticky.


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## Guest

And for comparison, a prelim looks like this:
(edit to use an example photo instead)


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## Guest

Moobli said:


> Excellent post @ouesi
> 
> Here is the KC Health Test Finder
> http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/


Thanks  
I've edited the OP to add that link in, thank you!


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## MiffyMoo

This is an excellent post and really does need to be a sticky. I have never bought from a breeder, but knew all about health testing; however I didn't know any of this


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## Siskin

Doesn't it just drive you up the wall.
I like to think and hope that we are able to educate people who are wanting to buy a puppy on how to avoid puppy farms. So we advise puppy viewers to see pups with the mum. Then the puppy farms bring in a stooge dog and pretend it's the mum. I guess the only way to get round that one is to actually see the bitch feed the puppies, but by 8 weeks, bitches very rarely let their sharp toothed pups anywhere near their teats.

Then we say make sure the sire and dam have been health tested and ask to to see the certificates and now those are being forged. 
At least the KC and other organisations have the data base which can be checked to see if those certificates are what they say they are. But could the data base be hacked?


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## Jezavix

Agree this should be a sticky, very useful information!
Thank you for sharing.


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## Siskin

Also agree that this should be made a sticky before the thread decends into the forums depths never to be seen again


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## Guest

Siskin said:


> Doesn't it just drive you up the wall.
> I like to think and hope that we are able to educate people who are wanting to buy a puppy on how to avoid puppy farms. So we advise puppy viewers to see pups with the mum. Then the puppy farms bring in a stooge dog and pretend it's the mum. I guess the only way to get round that one is to actually see the bitch feed the puppies, but by 8 weeks, bitches very rarely let their sharp toothed pups anywhere near their teats.
> 
> Then we say make sure the sire and dam have been health tested and ask to to see the certificates and now those are being forged.
> At least the KC and other organisations have the data base which can be checked to see if those certificates are what they say they are. But could the data base be hacked?


Well, part of me is happy that unscrupulous breeders are doing things like bringing in a stooge dam and faking health tests because it means buyers are demanding it, which means education efforts are working.

Now we just need to educate how health testing databases work.

As for the database being hacked, sure, anything can get hacked if you're willing to put in the time and effort and are smart enough to do it. I'm not worried about dumbasses who can't even figure out how to fake the right format for a prelim hacking in to a secure database any time soon though


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## Ceiling Kitty

Good info, thanks!

In the UK, dogs scored using the KC/BVA scheme must be at least twelve months old and the certificate looks like this (sourced from Google):


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## Moobli

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Good info, thanks!
> 
> In the UK, dogs scored using the KC/BVA scheme must be at least twelve months old and the certificate looks like this (sourced from Google):


And the KC Elbow Dysplasia form is GOLD.


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## Blitz

Siskin said:


> Doesn't it just drive you up the wall.
> I like to think and hope that we are able to educate people who are wanting to buy a puppy on how to avoid puppy farms. So we advise puppy viewers to see pups with the mum. Then the puppy farms bring in a stooge dog and pretend it's the mum. I guess the only way to get round that one is to actually see the bitch feed the puppies, but by 8 weeks, bitches very rarely let their sharp toothed pups anywhere near their teats.
> 
> Then we say make sure the sire and dam have been health tested and ask to to see the certificates and now those are being forged.
> At least the KC and other organisations have the data base which can be checked to see if those certificates are what they say they are. But could the data base be hacked?


It is not uncommon to swap KC registration so you might be looking at a totally different bitch and the original bitch might have been tested.


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## Siskin

Blitz said:


> It is not uncommon to swap KC registration so you might be looking at a totally different bitch and the original bitch might have been tested.


Of course you are relying on the honesty of the breeders that bitch A was actually mated to dog B especially if they own both dogs.


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## lymorelynn

Please note that I am allowing this as a sticky only if it remains impartial. I understood this to be a thread about the relevant information required for understanding the health testing of pedigree dogs. It is not about 'having a go' at one member in particular. I have edited it accordingly.


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## Guest

lymorelynn said:


> I understood this to be a thread about the relevant information required for understanding the health testing of *pedigree dogs*.


Not just pedigree dogs, pedigree and mixed breeds. Both can (and should) be health tested before breeding, and databases list mixed breeds too.

So if a breeder is saying their dog isn't listed on a public data base because they're not a purebred, don't fall for it.


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## Burrowzig

Blitz said:


> It is not uncommon to swap KC registration so you might be looking at a totally different bitch and the original bitch might have been tested.


That's a good reason to invest in a microchip scanner (£50ish, or borrow one) before looking for a breeder. Then you can check the number on the certificate to the number on the actual dog. If the breeder is a good one, they should know what goes on and understand. If they get shirty, they could have something to hide.

Another thing is to check that the pup's mother is the bitch you're being shown. We're all used to being told to see the pups with their mother, but puppy farm outlets may use any old bitch of the same breed. A bitch should still have saggy boobs from feeding the litter, and interact with the pups in a friendly way.


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## Darren Cooper

Thanks!


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## 8tansox

We came across something on Fb recently. A buyer had bought a Rottie pup and came in to one of our groups on FB. Naturally we were all excited to see a new puppy, who was gorgeous, someone asked what the breeding was, the pedigree was photographed and shown - the "breeder" had used the name of two stud dogs who had previously died. Had used the stud book numbers etc. etc. and to anyone unsuspecting, it all looked genuine. The breeder made all the right noises into contracts, returning the dog for any reason etc. so the buyer had been well and truly duped. The pedigree was false. When it was spotted, funnily enough, the breeder couldn't be traced.... 

So, check pedigrees thoroughly and ask questions. This "breeder" has been doing this for years and years apparently. Grrrrr.


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## Guest

8tansox said:


> We came across something on Fb recently. A buyer had bought a Rottie pup and came in to one of our groups on FB. Naturally we were all excited to see a new puppy, who was gorgeous, someone asked what the breeding was, the pedigree was photographed and shown - the "breeder" had used the name of two stud dogs who had previously died. Had used the stud book numbers etc. etc. and to anyone unsuspecting, it all looked genuine. The breeder made all the right noises into contracts, returning the dog for any reason etc. so the buyer had been well and truly duped. The pedigree was false. When it was spotted, funnily enough, the breeder couldn't be traced....
> 
> So, check pedigrees thoroughly and ask questions. This "breeder" has been doing this for years and years apparently. Grrrrr.


It amazes me the effort charlatan breeders will go to in an attempt to dupe buyers. It's so much work, you'd think it would be easier to just do the right thing to begin with!


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## Happy Paws2

While people are stupid enough to buy a puppy on-line and pick there puppy up from some stranger on a carpark, they will keep getting away with it. 

Most us on here know the right way to buy a puppy is to find a good breeder, go and see the puppy with it's Mom and siblings more than once if they are near enough to get there, and never buy a puppy without seeing it close to it's Mom, and not if they are if different rooms.


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## Guest

Happy Paws said:


> While people are stupid enough to buy a puppy on-line and pick there puppy up from some stranger on a carpark, they will keep getting away with it.
> 
> Most us on here know the right way to buy a puppy is to find a good breeder, go and see the puppy with it's Mom and siblings more than once if they are near enough to get there, and never buy a puppy without seeing it close to it's Mom, and not if they are if different rooms.


This thread is about setting the bar higher than "at least it's not a puppy farm". 
We're talking about educated buyers who know to ask for health checks and proper paperwork, but may not know how easily those papers can be faked.


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## Happy Paws2

so very sorry.


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## 8tansox

ouesi said:


> It amazes me the effort charlatan breeders will go to in an attempt to dupe buyers. It's so much work, you'd think it would be easier to just do the right thing to begin with!


Ah but, the paperwork can be copied over and over, if people don't show their dogs, or want to show their dog, how would they ever know about this scam? If it's being done in the Rottie world you can bet your bottom dollar other unscrupulous people are doing it to. In all honesty the puppy buyer thought they were buying a really good, nicely bred pup. They'd done some research (not enough obviously) but they hadn't just gone out blind so to speak, they looked for health tests etc. and were shown results....all fake. Trading standards are involved now I believe, but that's just one pup in thousands...


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## Pappychi

I'm sure I remember a few years back that someone bought a puppy and got the pedigree etc. All looked well. Until puppy's new owner came onto a forum to discover that both the sire and the dam were two deceased male dogs of an entirely different breed which the 'breeder' had lifted from some website. 

In the UK we have some interesting new registries, dog lovers registry being one of them, I recall a breeder managing to register a goat as a 'Romanian Coarse-Haired Hoof Herder' they sent her the paperwork and everything! :Hilarious


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## Guest

I just searched for the health records of the parents of the puppy I've put a deposit on and it gives this result http://services.thekennelclub.org.uk/24059e8f26cb4731b1d6f65a979c725c.healthtest. I have some paperwork (photocopied) from Laboklin is that why it's not on the KC website?


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## BlueJay

spamvicious said:


> I just searched for the health records of the parents of the puppy I've put a deposit on and it gives this result http://services.thekennelclub.org.uk/24059e8f26cb4731b1d6f65a979c725c.healthtest. I have some paperwork (photocopied) from Laboklin is that why it's not on the KC website?


Can you share the photocopy?


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## Guest

BlueJay said:


> Can you share the photocopy?


I haven't got a scanner, I took a picture but its very faint writing. So here's the jist of it. (Apologies for the tea stain in the corner, my niece knocked a cup over the binder). I also only have results for the Sire, nothing for Dam.

Sample ID: 1509-W-28555
Result Date: 22/09/2015

Name: Mr Sunshines Golden Parade (ARI) Bobby Junior
Microchip number: 900200000212826
Breed: Miniature Poodle
Sex: Male
KC Reg: AR00971006

Sample Material: SWAB
Sample Date: 11/09/2015

Test: PRA

Result (Clear)
Other text here.


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## Born to Boogie

I don't know why the results aren't published. The KC service is such a useful tool for checking the veracity of breeders claims.
I would have a niggling doubt that the tests haven't been carried out.
Is pupster a cavalier or cocker X poodle?


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## Guest

Born to Boogie said:


> I don't know why the results aren't published. The KC service is such a useful tool for checking the veracity of breeders claims.
> I would have a niggling doubt that the tests haven't been carried out.
> Is pupster a cavalier or cocker X poodle?


Cocker x Poodle


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## Born to Boogie

I am silly! Of course, Little Cutie Brownie is a cocker.
Did the breeder say that LCB is health tested? I would be expecting those results to show on myKC.
However, I know nothing about Cockers or Poodles or CP mixes


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## Alpha vs beta

The extent people will go to amazes me! I don't see why they do stuff like that. For more money of course but it's just silly


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## Scousewife

Great post, thanks o/p & all contributors.
Thank you for educating me, now I know what I need to look for.


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## TennoAkita

Wow great post!

Whilst we aren't ready for another pup just yet. I wouldn't have known of the ability to check we were being told the right info. 

So I can check hip scores via the OFA. 

What other tests can I check up on via them or any other organisation? Eye tests etc? What about breed specific tests?

I would've just gone on the breeders word up until now. And I kinda did when we got Kuma all those years ago.

I've sent out a few emails to breeders but they either don't check them or choose to ignore them. Despite asking to be contacted if we are interested in their pups from future matings.


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## Tizer

Moobli said:


> Excellent post @ouesi
> 
> Here is the KC Health Test Finder
> http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/


Thank you a hive of information on here, can certainly find or not find information that is supposed to be there, how do they get away with it


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## TennoAkita

What if a dog isn’t on the KC health check?


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## Tizer

Then it’s probably not had any health checks as owners after paying for tests would be anxious to have them on the kc website, especially breeders


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## TennoAkita

Tizer said:


> Then it's probably not had any health checks as owners after paying for tests would be anxious to have them on the kc website, especially breeders


Even if they are a top breeder?


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## Guest

TennoAkita said:


> Even if they are a top breeder?


What do you mean by "top breeder"? Breeding a lot and selling a lot of puppies does not necessarily equal ethical or responsible.

A breeder who spends the time and money to health test is going to want to make sure those tests are public.


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## TennoAkita

ouesi said:


> What do you mean by "top breeder"? Breeding a lot and selling a lot of puppies does not necessarily equal ethical or responsible.
> 
> A breeder who spends the time and money to health test is going to want to make sure those tests are public.


I specifically mean a breeder whose dogs are champions, whose dogs compete successfully around the world and breeds with other top kennels. Top having the same meaning.....

A mistake my end? Or something else?


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## SingingWhippet

What breed is it you're looking at? Not every single health test available for all breeds will currently show up on the KC Health Test Results Finder though usually the most vital ones will do. You can find a list of the health tests which the KC should hold results for (if they've been done) on the 'Health Information' page for each individual breed.

Just as an example, here is the list of the health tests available for Labradors which the KC will show results for if they've been done. However this page lists pretty much every health test currently available for Labs and as you can see there are many more DNA tests available than those listed on the KC site.

There are some breeds with DNA tests available, or recommended (by the breed club) screening schemes, which aren't recognised by the KC and so no results at all for those breeds will be available. In whippets, for example, heart testing is gradually becoming more common and there are a couple of DNA tests available however none of those are recognised by the KC and so even if they've been done no results will show up on the KC site.

Of course many breeders who compete successfully don't necessarily do all (or even any) of the relevant health tests for their breed. If you're looking at a breed which has health tests the KC will record the results of and there's nothing there then it's highly likely they're just not doing them.

It's also important to remember that health testing alone isn't the be all and end all of breeding healthy dogs or the only indication of how good a breeder is. Of course any decent breeder will be utilising the screening schemes and DNA tests available to them but there are other things they should be doing as well to stack the odds as far as possible in favour of the pups they breed being healthy. The Institute of Canine Biology blog has lots of excellent information about breeding for health and I'd particularly recommend these two articles to start with:

Understanding the Coefficient of Inbreeding

Why DNA Tests Won't Make Dogs Healthier


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## TennoAkita

SingingWhippet said:


> What breed is it you're looking at? Not every single health test available for all breeds will currently show up on the KC Health Test Results Finder though usually the most vital ones will do. You can find a list of the health tests which the KC should hold results for (if they've been done) on the 'Health Information' page for each individual breed.
> 
> Just as an example, here is the list of the health tests available for Labradors which the KC will show results for if they've been done. However this page lists pretty much every health test currently available for Labs and as you can see there are many more DNA tests available than those listed on the KC site.
> 
> There are some breeds with DNA tests available, or recommended (by the breed club) screening schemes, which aren't recognised by the KC and so no results at all for those breeds will be available. In whippets, for example, heart testing is gradually becoming more common and there are a couple of DNA tests available however none of those are recognised by the KC and so even if they've been done no results will show up on the KC site.
> 
> Of course many breeders who compete successfully don't necessarily do all (or even any) of the relevant health tests for their breed. If you're looking at a breed which has health tests the KC will record the results of and there's nothing there then it's highly likely they're just not doing them.
> 
> It's also important to remember that health testing alone isn't the be all and end all of breeding healthy dogs or the only indication of how good a breeder is. Of course any decent breeder will be utilising the screening schemes and DNA tests available to them but there are other things they should be doing as well to stack the odds as far as possible in favour of the pups they breed being healthy. The Institute of Canine Biology blog has lots of excellent information about breeding for health and I'd particularly recommend these two articles to start with:
> 
> Understanding the Coefficient of Inbreeding
> 
> Why DNA Tests Won't Make Dogs Healthier


I'm looking at Akitas


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## SingingWhippet

In that case the only recommended health tests for them are hip scoring and eye testing, both of which should show up on the KC site if they're being done. A quick look at Champdogs suggests eye testing isn't done as often as hip scoring though there are some breeders listed who do both.


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## Tizer

TennoAkita said:


> Even if they are a top breeder?


Without test certificates proving health checks (obviously hoping they are not forgeries) reputable breeders would want health checks on the KC health website, unless the health checks are not that good eg HD scores


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## TennoAkita

Could I be doing something wrong? I’m putting in the kennel names for a big ch of different breeders dogs to be sure and I’m getting no results


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## SingingWhippet

Are you just searching for the kennel names? You need to search for individual dogs.

For example if I search for this dog I found on Champdogs then his hip score results show up when I search for him on the Health Test Results Finder.

If you are looking for individual dogs are the breeders saying they are health tested?


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## TennoAkita

SingingWhippet said:


> Are you just searching for the kennel names? You need to search for individual dogs.
> 
> For example if I search for this dog I found on Champdogs then his hip score results show up when I search for him on the Health Test Results Finder.
> 
> If you are looking for individual dogs are the breeders saying they are health tested?


Yes I am searching individual dogs by their kennel names. All the breeders I've looked at say their dogs are health tested for hips eyes and thyroid.


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## TennoAkita

For example: https://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeder/6269?mobile_site=1

No results for the first dog. I've left champion out of course.


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## Siskin

I've checked to and you're right, no health tests on the KC site. Also checked the dam of the dog shown and she is listed on the KC site but no health tests have been either submitted or done


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## SingingWhippet

TennoAkita said:


> For example: https://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeder/6269?mobile_site=1
> 
> No results for the first dog. I've left champion out of course.


I've found him ok and there is a record of his hip scoring which matches what's on Champdogs.

The spelling needs to be exact and in that dog's case you need the apostrophe and the 's' after the affix.

So "Nosferatu's Kickin Up A Storm" will bring up results but "Nosferatu Kickin Up A Storm" won't.


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## Siskin

SingingWhippet said:


> I've found him ok and there is a record of his hip scoring which matches what's on Champdogs.
> 
> The spelling needs to be exact and in that dog's case you need the apostrophe and the 's' after the affix.
> 
> So "Nosferatu's Kickin Up A Storm" will bring up results but "Nosferatu Kickin Up A Storm" won't.


Ah, that's where I went wrong


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## Biffo

TennoAkita said:


> I'm looking at Akitas


Crufts is only a few weeks away now, if the breeder you're interested in is a show breeder they will more than likely be showing at Crufts. Its a great opportunity to see them with their dogs if you can make it along. We did this a few years ago and we're so glad we did. The breeder we had liked 'on paper' so to speak was not someone I would buy a dog from. We ended up going to a breeder we picked because her relationship with her dogs was wonderful, the dogs were happy and relaxed, happy to interact with strangers (important for us as wanted an easier going RBT than our current one) and most of all they adored their owner (the breeder).

It's also possible the breeder will ask you along to visit before they have puppies, so you'll be able to have a chat and meet the adult dogs and see all the appropriate health certificates.


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## TennoAkita

SingingWhippet said:


> I've found him ok and there is a record of his hip scoring which matches what's on Champdogs.
> 
> The spelling needs to be exact and in that dog's case you need the apostrophe and the 's' after the affix.
> 
> So "Nosferatu's Kickin Up A Storm" will bring up results but "Nosferatu Kickin Up A Storm" won't.


I figured it was something I was doing wrong.

However I am not getting any results with other breeders dogs. I'll keep trying.


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## TennoAkita

Biffo said:


> Crufts is only a few weeks away now, if the breeder you're interested in is a show breeder they will more than likely be showing at Crufts. Its a great opportunity to see them with their dogs if you can make it along. We did this a few years ago and we're so glad we did. The breeder we had liked 'on paper' so to speak was not someone I would buy a dog from. We ended up going to a breeder we picked because her relationship with her dogs was wonderful, the dogs were happy and relaxed, happy to interact with strangers (important for us as wanted an easier going RBT than our current one) and most of all they adored their owner (the breeder).
> 
> It's also possible the breeder will ask you along to visit before they have puppies, so you'll be able to have a chat and meet the adult dogs and see all the appropriate health certificates.


All in hand


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## ThisIsketts

Was talking to a friend while walking my dog, Thier dog a Golden Lab had really good hip scores then ended up needed hip replacements, couldn't believe it when they said it, they mentioned he used to sploot with his legs behind him, which is normally an indicator of decent hips. Never even heard of the word sploot till Ridley was lying down and his leg behind him, went to my partner and said is that normal.


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## Jon Roff

This is great info. we have just bought a new Poodle Puppy and spent over a year looking for the right breeder


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## Pam Phillips

You also need to be aware if a dog is an import then you will need that in brackets after name ie (IMP JPN) for Japanese import (IMP HUN) for Hungarian Import - otherwise dog/bitch wont show up


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## TennoAkita

Pam Phillips said:


> You also need to be aware if a dog is an import then you will need that in brackets after name ie (IMP JPN) for Japanese import (IMP HUN) for Hungarian Import - otherwise dog/bitch wont show up


Ah, yes, Aya's dad was a russian import.


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## tabelmabel

https://www.buyapuppysafely.org/#Section-Risks

Just posting this very interesting link here - i put it on dog chat initially but it fits better here i think. Well worth a look


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## Tracey Geeves

As the last post on this thread was nearly a year ago, sorry if this has been posted in the wrong section and happy to be 'redirected' elsewhere.

I'm currently on the search for my first puppy (grew up with several dogs over the years, but never been sole owner/buyer before) and it's a minefield of questions/checks/research etc.

My question is regarding the documents/health checks etc breeders claim to have, certificates they might show you or have copes of etc. How can I verify they are not fraudulent or forged?

I've researched the health tests recommended for the breeds I have it narrowed down to and as one is considered a lower health/controversial breed, I am very concerned with finding one that has been bred carefully to breed away from these health problems and improve the breed. 

I have found a few breeders I like the look of and they are listed on both champdogs, the kennel club (although one is not an assured breeder) and members of their breed club society and appears to be involved in taking part in some health screening and monitoring programmes aimed at improving the breed, so I am leaning heavily towards them as a 'good choice'.

I am not familiar with dissecting breeding lines to know whether they are good or bad, but they seem to be putting up all the 'right' info. But how do you really know if it is all genuine?

And finally, I do have several reasons why I am choosing a puppy over a rescue (3 of my parents 5 dogs growing up with for over 37 years were rescues) so these questions are directly related to carefully finding a puppy, if that's ok!


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## Siskin

Tracey Geeves said:


> As the last post on this thread was nearly a year ago, sorry if this has been posted in the wrong section and happy to be 'redirected' elsewhere.
> 
> I'm currently on the search for my first puppy (grew up with several dogs over the years, but never been sole owner/buyer before) and it's a minefield of questions/checks/research etc.
> 
> My question is regarding the documents/health checks etc breeders claim to have, certificates they might show you or have copes of etc. How can I verify they are not fraudulent or forged?
> 
> I've researched the health tests recommended for the breeds I have it narrowed down to and as one is considered a lower health/controversial breed, I am very concerned with finding one that has been bred carefully to breed away from these health problems and improve the breed.
> 
> I have found a few breeders I like the look of and they are listed on both champdogs, the kennel club (although one is not an assured breeder) and members of their breed club society and appears to be involved in taking part in some health screening and monitoring programmes aimed at improving the breed, so I am leaning heavily towards them as a 'good choice'.
> 
> I am not familiar with dissecting breeding lines to know whether they are good or bad, but they seem to be putting up all the 'right' info. But how do you really know if it is all genuine?
> 
> And finally, I do have several reasons why I am choosing a puppy over a rescue (3 of my parents 5 dogs growing up with for over 37 years were rescues) so these questions are directly related to carefully finding a puppy, if that's ok!


If you sign up to a MYKC account on the KC website you will then be able to check out the health results of your chosen breed.

Look for breeders that are breeding for temperament as well as health. Don't know your breed choice, you mention controversial in your post, but breeding for temperament as well as health may well be pertinent here


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## Tracey Geeves

Siskin said:


> If you sign up to a MYKC account on the KC website you will then be able to check out the health results of your chosen breed.
> 
> Look for breeders that are breeding for temperament as well as health. Don't know your breed choice, you mention controversial in your post, but breeding for temperament as well as health may well be pertinent here


Thanks for that info. I guess I just need to check, double check and cross reference all info I can get to be sure it's all genuine.

Temperament of the breed is lovely, personality is a large part of why I like the breed. It's that are a brachycephalic breed dog, which a lot of people are opposed to breeding that I used 'controversial' to describe.


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## Dogluver57

Siskin said:


> Doesn't it just drive you up the wall.
> I like to think and hope that we are able to educate people who are wanting to buy a puppy on how to avoid puppy farms. So we advise puppy viewers to see pups with the mum. Then the puppy farms bring in a stooge dog and pretend it's the mum. I guess the only way to get round that one is to actually see the bitch feed the puppies, but by 8 weeks, bitches very rarely let their sharp toothed pups anywhere near their teats.
> 
> Then we say make sure the sire and dam have been health tested and ask to to see the certificates and now those are being forged.
> At least the KC and other organisations have the data base which can be checked to see if those certificates are what they say they are. But could the data base be hacked?


I prefer to rescue from shelters. I think we need to limit breeding


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## O2.0

Dogluver57 said:


> I prefer to rescue from shelters. I think we need to limit breeding


Not everyone has the same needs and want in a dog. If you want to rescue and can, great. If you don't, buy responsibly.


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## Scot6y

Can I ask where to post regarding a possible puppy farmer/immoral breeder?


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## Blitz

Scot6y said:


> Can I ask where to post regarding a possible puppy farmer/immoral breeder?


start your own thread in dog chat - that gets the most traffic


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## Scot6y

Blitz said:


> start your own thread in dog chat - that gets the most traffic


Thankyou


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## puppuccino

It's also very important to know that a good breeder will also let you see the pups and mum before any money exchanges hands.

*Never* pay money for a dog you've never seen.


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## Shelley Pickles

Wondering if anyone can offer advice: We purchased a JUG puppy from a private breeder on Sunday & she had a bit of a red eye. The breeder said it was just from rough and tumble with her siblings & we accepted that as we didn't know better and had already fallen in love with her. It got worse so we googled it on Tuesday & found that it's actually a cherry eye/prolapsed tear duct. Took her to vet for first jabs & to look at it today & vet advised she needs surgery with a specialist ophthalmologist - total cost in excess of £2000. Got a 2nd opinion & 2nd vet agreed & both said it should be covered under litter insurance as it happened before 8 weeks (our insurance only kicks in after 14 days). Contacted breeder who said they don't have insurance. What do we do ? We don't want to return her but don't have £2000 for this surgery she needs, especially after just paying quite a bit for her this weekend. I'm in tears & don't know what to do for the best.


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## DaisyBluebell

Sadly I don't think there is anything you can do. Your puppy should have come with litter insurance to cover you prior to you getting your own insurance in place from a proper breeder. The puppy should also have come microchipped in their or your name - did it? That is a legal requirement. 
Such a shame you never came on here before looking for a reputable breeder of actual breeds of dogs or perhaps gone to a rescue as there are plenty of mixed parentage dogs waiting for a good home there. As it is you have sadly bought either a puppy farm dog or someone who thought they would make a bit of money out of putting two dogs together. Obviously they did no testing of the two parents either. You could try the PDSA for help towards the operation or ask your vet if the operation could be paid for by yourselves in installments. Very sad for yourselves and also for your pup and possibly its siblings.


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