# Do you agree with showing dogs?



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

...Following on from another thread, I thought it could make an interesting discussion 

So, do you agree with showing dogs, and if not - what don't you like about it?

Please remember that this a discussion and everyone is entitled to their opinion whether you agree with it or not


----------



## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Its not for me but I see no harm in it if the dogs enjoy it and nor do i know alot about it, these are my thoughts rightly or wrongly.

I am sure there are good and bad in all but seeing the way some people carry on if they don't get a rosette at charity fun dog shows and flouncing off makes me think the 'proper' show world could be much worse? 

I am not into all the primping and preening side of things either and odd haircuts and also you hear alot about show dogs being alot different from their working counterparts which again don't knwo if a good or bad thing if dogs are healthy as they probably make better pets for the majority of people.

Another thing i don't like is the way some dogs have got all these health issues due to breed standards saying they must have this and that.. but who can you really blame as if you want to do well then people are going to show the dogs that fit that standard - its up to change from above and people to recognise that things need changing. I also get the impression from the small amount of knowledge that not everyone wants change??? (i.e. the cavalier breeders in that documentary and also read something about some breeders not wanting to include a pointer gene was it to help remove the kidney problems dalmations have, cos they would not be 'pure' then?) and these examples sadly outweigh probably all the nice caring show people who do want to improve the breeds and have fun.


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't see any harm in it if the owner and dog enjoy it. I don't like it when they get insanely competitive and drag miserable dogs around the ring because they're "good type". If healthy dogs that can do their jobs are being chosen, debateable in some breeds obviously, then there's nothing wrong with it. That goes for any dog competition there was a mini poodle doing agility at Crufts tail firmly between it's legs scared but they still made her do the course.


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Good post, and I think I do agree with you.

There are good people and bad people out there, you get that with anything really. I think people who show at fun levels (such as myself lol) and people who show on a serious level are a totally different kettle of fish though lol I think people in a fun show all firmly believe that they deserve that rosette and no doubt sometimes act like spoiled brats, whereas I think a lot of serious show people know damn well when they're gonna win something.

Personally show cuts and different styles don't bother me (i'm training to be a groomer so it'd be a poor do if it did lol) as it doesn't seem to affect the dogs in any way and they seem happy whether they are in a show cut or not.

I also think you have a point with the health testing thing - people may want to do well within their breed and although they may want the breed to be healthier but in order to do well within the breed, they have to stick to the standards.

I do think there's a lot that could be done in the way of eradicating inner health issues (ones that arent cosmetic) and I think that many breeders of many breeds could do more to prevent them - such as with the Dalmatian thing. I think they should breed with the Pointers in order to eradicate the kidney problems. I've read a fair bit about this too as my OH loves Dallies so have been doing a bit of research into them for the future 

although overall, I do agree with showing dogs as long as the dog enjoys it and it is a healthy representation of its breed


----------



## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

EmCHammer said:


> Its not for me but I see no harm in it if the dogs enjoy it and nor do i know alot about it, these are my thoughts rightly or wrongly.
> 
> I am sure there are good and bad in all but seeing the way some people carry on if they don't get a rosette at charity fun dog shows and flouncing off makes me think the 'proper' show world could be much worse?
> 
> ...


At ' proper' shows people don't tend to go flouncing off because they don't get a rossette. At the fun shows most of the people are pet owners who don't show normally and would just like their baby to go home with a pretty rossette. People that show properly are often at shows several times a month sometimes more and respect the judges decision. Yes they may think their dog is better than the winners and may say so but the judges decision is final.

Any one who thinks dogs don't enjoy being shown needs to come to my house on the morning of the show when the ones that aren't going are screaming because they want to come with us. God knows what the neighbours must think at the noise they make when I start putting dogs into the car.

My whippets love meeting others of their own breed. The way they greet other whippets you'd think they lived on their own and never met other whippets not lived in a pack of 8.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I think its important to note that its not the "breed standards fault" for exaggerations within the breed, but its the interpretation of the breed standard by all breeders, judges and exhibitors that cause the problems. (Not to mention pet breeders  but thats going off topic). Like with everything whether its right or wrong each breed goes through a trend, whether its the coat style or the conformation. 10-20 years ago most breeds looked very different and in 20yrs time they will look different again, whether it be for the better or worse.
With setters at the minute there is a new style of trimming that is taking off with the breed (very subtle) some are heavily trimming the ears, some are leaving them more natural. This is in england alone. Compare the trimming in england to dogs in america and the englich are shocked at how trimmed their american counter parts are.... will edit with pictures when I find them.

BTW I agree with showing. My dogs enjoy it and so do I.

English Setter English trimming








English Setter American Trimming








Red Setter English Trimming








Red Setter American Trimming


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I'm honestly not bothered by it. If the dog likes it then fair enough. I wouldn't show a dog that didn't like the attention and everything else that goes with it.

Showing isn't for me but I understand it's a great hobby and/or career for some.

Just to add I don't like the deliberate breeding of exaggerations (I know we all harp on about the GSD but you have to agree here) just to win rosettes.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Freyja said:


> At ' proper' shows people don't tend to go flouncing off because they don't get a rossette. At the fun shows most of the people are pet owners who don't show normally and would just like their baby to go home with a pretty rossette. People that show properly are often at shows several times a month sometimes more and respect the judges decision. Yes they may think their dog is better than the winners and may say so but the judges decision is final.


I thought that until I judged a couple - the competition has been very fierce - in my last puppy class I had 22 entries, and could easily have placed 10 of them - the quality across the board was generally excellent and there were quite a few regular champ show people (and judges in their own right) there, and I know a large number of the exhibits have gone on to take BOB / BPIB, group 1 placings and BIS / BPIS at Open and CH level.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

EmCHammer said:


> Its not for me but I see no harm in it if the dogs enjoy it and nor do i know alot about it, these are my thoughts rightly or wrongly.
> 
> I am sure there are good and bad in all but seeing the way some people carry on if they don't get a rosette at charity fun dog shows and flouncing off makes me think the 'proper' show world could be much worse?
> 
> ...


This is a really good post because I think you have encapsulated a lot of what people who don't know much about showing get worried about with showing. This isn't intended as having a go at you, but I would like to address some of the points you are worried about in order to try to allay the fears somewhat - not just for you, but for others like you who are worried about similar things.

1. There are bad sportsmen (and women!) in dog showing at Championship level just as there are in every walk of life, but in the main most people are respectful of the judge's decision - and in the odd case where someone has a genuine complaint there is a mechanism for complaining through the Kennel Club.

2. Most show dogs are as healthy, if not healthier, than their working counterparts, and most show dogs have excellent temperaments - it takes a good temperament for a dog to stand still and allow a virtual stranger to run his/her hands all over him, including his most intimate parts. Show dogs in general really enjoy what they do - it's a day out with the family, with them at the centre of attention. When the show bag comes out our lot go mad - and one look at Gabby's poor face in the window when she realises she's not going to the show with us would be enough to convince anyone she loved showing. (She gets spoilt to bits by my OH while we are out, but even that is no consolation to her when we leave  )

3. Breed standards are not set by either the showing fraternity or the Kennel Club. Breed standards are set by the breed clubs - and breed clubs have members who don't show, who have pets or who have working types.

4. Breeders and exhibitors who don't want to make sure their dogs are healthy and fit for purpose, or who do not want to embrace change for the better in their breed, are a tiny minority, not the majority.


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> English Setter English trimming
> 
> English Setter American Trimming
> 
> ...


Gosh I can't believe how different they look!

Has the feathering on the Setters been straightened?

I prefer the English version of the English Setter but in a way, I kinda prefer the American Version of the Irish....it looks odd and not natural but I do like how you can see the outline of the body on the dog, especially in that particular photo.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I think its mainly in the breeding. Most Am imports are much straighter in the coat than natives


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

And oops - that will teach me to realise it's a new thread 

Yes, I agree with showing dogs, and show mine on a regular basis - but ONLY if the dog enjoys it.

IMO - it has to be a pleasurable experience for dog and owner - I bought in a beautiful (if a bit nutty) yellow Lab with real show potential - and he hated it  he was such a sweetheart - we qualified him for Crufts - but quickly realised it wasn't for him.

We spent months searching for a new home (it wasn't fair leaving him behind on a regular basis) and no-one suitable came along - so we started health testing etc - then out of the blue, a friend rang and said her friend had lost their lab and their old girl needed a companion - it was love at first lick all round and he is now like a pig in sh*t living on 80 acres with his own pools, the beach near by, all the other animals and agility club in his barn - I broke my heart - but it was the right thing to do for him.


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> I think its mainly in the breeding. Most Am imports are much straighter in the coat than natives


Ah, I see!

I wish i'd been bred to have hair that straight :thumbup:


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

EmCHammer said:


> I am not into all the primping and preening side of things either and odd haircuts and also you hear alot about show dogs being alot different from their working counterparts which again don't knwo if a good or bad thing if dogs are healthy as they probably make better pets for the majority of people..


Not really sure what you are trying to say here. Both 'sides' of the breed health test and work with those results for the best possible outcome. Yes, there has been a divergence in some breeds - but, for example, both sides in my own breed can meet the breed standard and yet look different, and an increasing number of show people are now dipping their toe in the 'working' water so to speak - we've just started with my gang - very very early days yet - but the potential is definitely there with at least four of them, not to competition level - but certainly to have some fun.



EmCHammer said:


> Another thing i don't like is the way some dogs have got all these health issues due to breed standards saying they must have this and that.. but who can you really blame as if you want to do well then people are going to show the dogs that fit that standard - its up to change from above and people to recognise that things need changing. I also get the impression from the small amount of knowledge that not everyone wants change??? (i.e. the cavalier breeders in that documentary and also read something about some breeders not wanting to include a pointer gene was it to help remove the kidney problems dalmations have, cos they would not be 'pure' then?) and these examples sadly outweigh probably all the nice caring show people who do want to improve the breeds and have fun.


I have to say those who breed to the extreme in nearly any breed really are in the minority - 'THAT' documentary gave a very one sided view of things 

Maybe Ms Harrison would have done well to look at some of the abominations going on with some of the Back Yard breeders and PF - then people really would have had something to shout about.

Don't get me wrong - I am not justifying exageration or ignoring health issues - but as with most things in life - it's humans who are at the helm - and therefore, there will always be good and bad - it's a sometimes, unpalatable - but realistic fact of life - and brings me nicely back to the fact that really the only ones with the power to stop the bad are the puppy buyers.

Edited to add - much prefer the coats on the english bred setters.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

We show and love it . I love the working breeds because there is so little trimming ect and faults are pretty hard to hide. & btw lol - most champ shows you have to go buy a rosette if you want one lol and they aren't cheap either. Honestly, i think alot of show dogs are treated alot better tha some pet dogs - best food, plenty of exercise, alot worked to the job they were bred to do, extremely well socalised, great coats - it would be hard to take a dog who wasn't extremely well looked after and happy to a show because so many people would notice. I'm more talking about the working group because that's what i know most about but i can't think of a breed in the workingn group that has been bred to ruin due to misinterpretation (sp) of the breed standard? I could genuinely be wrong though lol. I've heard alot of people say that showing is cruel ect, they don't get to be real dogs. My dogs run in harness, go swimming, do agility, go to dog shows, get two to three long walks a day, they have more doggy friends than i have normal friends, go on 'doggy' holidays once a year - tell me what your dog has that mine doesnt? I'm all for having a debate and hearing other peoples opinions - it's just sad that alot of the time those opinions are based on ignorance . Not aimed at anyone in particular lol - just ranting :lol:x


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The only ones I can think of are the english and neopolitan mastiffs. It's one group that's escaped exaggaration along with most of the terriers.


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Me and my dogs loved showing


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> The only ones I can think of are the english and neopolitan mastiffs. It's one group that's escaped exaggaration along with most of the terriers.


aw yeah they are quite bad . I think the pastoral group too maybe? x


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

With a few exceptions yeah the pastoral group are pretty good.


----------



## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Just a quick reply to say I know absolutely nothing about the world of showing (very much from a pound dog rescue background) and am happy to be educated; just thought would throw my thoughts in as someone with very little knowledge of this world and give my thoughts and perspective on the topic as gleaned from magazines, forums and the media etc (who I know from experience report what they want esp on subjects close to my heart such as Staffies/ Dog resuce), i.e. any notions I have about show and working lines have been based on things and opinions read rather than experience! 

:thumbup:


----------



## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> I think its important to note that its not the "breed standards fault" for exaggerations within the breed, but its the interpretation of the breed standard by all breeders, judges and exhibitors that cause the problems. (Not to mention pet breeders  but thats going off topic). Like with everything whether its right or wrong each breed goes through a trend, whether its the coat style or the conformation. 10-20 years ago most breeds looked very different and in 20yrs time they will look different again, whether it be for the better or worse.
> With setters at the minute there is a new style of trimming that is taking off with the breed (very subtle) some are heavily trimming the ears, some are leaving them more natural. This is in england alone. Compare the trimming in england to dogs in america and the englich are shocked at how trimmed their american counter parts are.... will edit with pictures when I find them.
> 
> BTW I agree with showing. My dogs enjoy it and so do I.
> ...


The American trimming is horrible. When I was showing Zoe I asked he breeder to teach me how to trim her. She told me irish setters only have their feet and ears trimmed. She didn't take to much off their ears. A lot are trimmed down to look like they have almost short hair on their ears. I prefer to leave it a bit longer. In fact she rarely get them trimmed now I don't show her.


----------



## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> I think its important to note that its not the "breed standards fault" for exaggerations within the breed, but its the interpretation of the breed standard by all breeders, judges and exhibitors that cause the problems. (Not to mention pet breeders  but thats going off topic). Like with everything whether its right or wrong each breed goes through a trend, whether its the coat style or the conformation. 10-20 years ago most breeds looked very different and in 20yrs time they will look different again, whether it be for the better or worse.
> With setters at the minute there is a new style of trimming that is taking off with the breed (very subtle) some are heavily trimming the ears, some are leaving them more natural. This is in england alone. Compare the trimming in england to dogs in america and the englich are shocked at how trimmed their american counter parts are.... will edit with pictures when I find them.
> 
> BTW I agree with showing. My dogs enjoy it and so do I.
> ...


I have to say out of all four dogs I like the English trimming more the American trimming. The English looks alot more natural (which I honestly like in dogs) compared to the american which looks like the dogs hair in one shot looks straightened with a straightener?


----------



## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Don't forget too that it is the show world that keeps many many minority breeds going - who else is promoting Schipperkees , Podengos , Japanese Chins , Sloughis, Tibetan Matsiffs , Norweigan Buhunds Laekenois etc etc ?most folk that show are truly passionate about 'their' breed and spend time. effort and money in health testing, importing dogs from other countries to widen gene pools seeking out the best match for their lines and researching health issues - I have 6 dog here - 3 are currently shown 2 are now retired and 1 is'nt shown because he did'nt like it ( you cannot force a dog to show ) -the three that are shown just LOVE it - they go crazy when I get the show bag out and queue up to jump into the car. 

It's a great hobby - when our kids wer young we used to caravan and do the show circuit ( in Ireland too ) they did junior handling and each evening we would share a BBQ with our other show mates and their kids- such wonderful memories !! 

Hubby and I are retiring to France later this year and yes we intend to carry on showing over there as well.

Yvonne


----------



## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

if the dog and owner both enjoy it then i think its a fantastic thing for them to do, i have never done it myself but always fancied having a go 

i understand there are the odd few that will take things over the top and not be doing if for the dogs as such but more for the titles etc and like in everything the minority make the storys that people hear...


----------



## chrissie-h (Apr 18, 2010)

Bijou said:


> Hubby and I are retiring to France later this year and yes we intend to carry on showing over there as well.


I was talking with someone recently who had judged shows in France, and they were telling me how different the system is over there - from what they were saying, all pedigree dogs are assessed at a show and have to get a ticket (or whatever the equivalent) before they are bred (for their offspring to be registered that is). 
My friend also said if a young dog was not deemed 'suitable' in their first assessment that there wasnt much chance to get the dog reasessed....

Is this the case? It's interesting... How do breed health profiles differ on the continent? i.e. do different show systems/kc regulations in other countries have a marked influence on breeding practises and/or health issues? x


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

personlly no I dont agree wiv showing dogs but dont have any problems with peeple who do it is there choise.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chrissie-h said:


> I was talking with someone recently who had judged shows in France, and they were telling me how different the system is over there - from what they were saying, all pedigree dogs are assessed at a show and have to get a ticket (or whatever the equivalent) before they are bred (for their offspring to be registered that is).
> My friend also said if a young dog was not deemed 'suitable' in their first assessment that there wasnt much chance to get the dog reasessed....
> 
> Is this the case? It's interesting... How do breed health profiles differ on the continent? i.e. do different show systems/kc regulations in other countries have a marked influence on breeding practises and/or health issues? x


That's not strictly correct - a dog imported to France can be 'part' registered with the French KC - in order to get full registration - they have to undergo a 'confirmation' test at 18 months (or older) and so the cycle continues for their offspring etc. (one of my pups went out there on shared ownership - sadly, the owners ill-health put a blockade on her showing / breeding)

In France, you could literally pick up a 'street' dog, and if it passes the test, it can be registered (and is the reputed story behind a well known international champion) - whereas in the UK, if the parents aren't KC registered, neither can the offspring be.

Breeding is very different in France to the UK and is taxed very heavily.

Showing is also very different - by default, the distances travelled are much much greater - the french don't use benching for their CH shows, owners hire crates, and although puppies can be shown, unlike in the UK where a dog could be a SH CH at 18 months, in France, the dog has to pass it's confirmation at 18 months or later - and this does include the passing of certain health tests.

Certainly in my own breed, to be made up, the dog also has to pass certain levels as a trialer (working) as well - whereas in the UK, three CC's can make the dog up to SH CH and they have to get their Show Dog Working Certificate before they can become a full CH.

--------------------------

All the above however doesn't actually mean a dog can't be shown or bred from - a bit like the UK, and contrary to belief, PF exist there as they do in the UK 

And unlike in the UK, if you don't want to show, there is probably less incentive to go to a reputable breeder who uses all available health tests.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

swarthy said:


> And oops - that will teach me to realise it's a new thread
> 
> Yes, I agree with showing dogs, and show mine on a regular basis - but ONLY if the dog enjoys it.
> 
> ...


just being nosy and not picking or anything but how much time did u spend at shows that u felt u had to rehome ur dog which didnt like showing?

Im showing myself and i have a dog here who we dont take with us but it never crossed my mind to rehome him cause we leave him behind when going to a show. We just arrange appriopriate care for him for the time and he is fine so im just wondering ....


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Mollydoodle said:


> personlly no I dont agree wiv showing dogs but dont have any problems with peeple who do it is there choise.


why not.

i show the dogs and we both enjoy it. great to meet up and chat with friends you meet some 30 years ago purely through dog showing. My young dog didn't enjoy Crufts this year so i probably won't take him again.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> just being nosy and not picking or anything but how much time did u spend at shows that u felt u had to rehome ur dog which didnt like showing?
> 
> Im showing myself and i have a dog here who we dont take with us but it never crossed my mind to rehome him cause we leave him behind when going to a show. We just arrange appriopriate care for him for the time and he is fine so im just wondering ....


I show every weekend, and during the summer, often during the week as well - the dog having travelled the length and breadth of the country including Crufts. He was 21 months when he went and had been shown since he was 6 months old.

The fact it never crossed your mind to rehome, suggests that you are judging me - it would have been easy for me to keep him, stand him at stud as all his health tests were in progress when he went - I adored him - but did what was best for the dog.

I rehomed him because it was the best thing for him rather than what was best for me - losing a very large amount of money (running into thousands) in the process) - a life has to be right for the dog as well as the owner - I turned 100's of people away as unsuitable owners for this dog - and, totally out of the blue, a home came along through a friend.

I would NEVER take the decision to rehome any of my dogs lightly, it has to be right, and he was lucky the right home came along.


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

dexter said:


> why not.
> 
> i show the dogs and we both enjoy it. great to meet up and chat with friends you meet some 30 years ago purely through dog showing. My young dog didn't enjoy Crufts this year so i probably won't take him again.


coz i thingk dogs want to be running around free and not being stuck waiting round for ages and i wudnt clip molly like sum showdogs get clipped iehter; but as the OP says respect other peeples opinions. my opinion is I wudnt do it but if peeple do thats up to them.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

swarthy said:


> I show every weekend, and during the summer, often during the week as well - the dog having travelled the length and breadth of the country including Crufts. He was 21 months when he went and had been shown since he was 6 months old.
> 
> The fact it never crossed your mind to rehome, suggests that you are judging me - it would have been easy for me to keep him, stand him at stud as all his health tests were in progress when he went - I adored him - but did what was best for the dog.
> 
> ...


no, im not judging u .... i was just wondering as im in a situation where i leave my dog behind and alot of other show people do as well im sure.

I just fail to see the need to rehome a dog in such a situation (and again im not judging its only my view on things and im only having a conversation lol), because he is being left behind on those occasions. Working families leave their dogs im sure behind for a lot longer during the week and the dogs adapt to it and are happy and well cared for.

Nothing to do with u and im just having a discussion about it cause u just hear so often of show folk who get a dog for showing, the dog doesnt pay off as either wasnt good example or wasnt too happy in the ring, and dog is being rehomed. 
I believe in buying a dog or keeping a pup from a litter for life and not for my hobby, hence why i find it difficult to understand certain decisions people make in regards to the show world and their dogs.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> coz i thingk dogs want to be running around free and not being stuck waiting round for ages and i wudnt clip molly like sum showdogs get clipped iehter; but as the OP says respect other peeples opinions. my opinion is I wudnt do it but if peeple do thats up to them.


I think this is a common preconception and misunderstanding. Dogs are actually NOT happiest running around free, they are happiest DOING things. They thrive on interation and a 'job to do'. I see so many pet owners (whose dogs are happy enough - don't get me wrong, they are much loved and have good lives), but they are extremely under stimulated. I don't show my dogs, and don't like it, but that's me personally. I hate having to trot up and down for the judging of best looking when being in the awards at breed club working tests, but that is just me - the dogs don't mind a bit . My dogs have free time and being labs are incredibly sociable and will happily play with other dogs, but when the game bag comes out and they have a choice of training or running around free with other dogs (and often when I'm out the opportunity for that choice happens) they will always prefer to train and completely ignore other dogs.

So, what I'm trying to say, is that even if I don't personally show, I can quite see that it is the interation and attention that dogs crave, far more than their freedom . And that is the case in showing as well as the other more obvious disciplines like working, agility etc.


----------



## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Mine didn't like showing so we just found something he did like to compete in.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> hence why i find it difficult to understand certain decisions people make in regards to the show world and their dogs.


I think there is a fine line, but important one between rehoming in the best interests of the dog and rehoming because it is more convenient for the owners. So much many of the dogs that are rehomed, whether through rescue, private ads, resold, are for the benefit of the owners. But I do think there are cases where it is for the dogs benefit. Having been a volunteer for rescue, it never ceases me the capacity dogs have to adjust, settle and move on. They don't hold onto loss in the same way we humans do. Neither do I think this is something that is just done in the 'show world'. It happens in the working and pet worlds too. What about the much loved family pet that, due to personal circumstances (marriage breakup, financial difficulty etc) where the dog is being left for long periods and cannot cope! Would you suggest that they keep the dog because they bought it for life, in spite of it not being happy? I'm sure you wouldnt, and I agree that far too many are given up too easily when alternative arrangements can be made if there is the commitment to do so, but there are cases (albeit the minority) where it really is done in the best interests of the dog.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> I think there is a fine line, but important one between rehoming in the best interests of the dog and rehoming because it is more convenient for the owners. So much many of the dogs that are rehomed, whether through rescue, private ads, resold, are for the benefit of the owners. But I do think there are cases where it is for the dogs benefit. Having been a volunteer for rescue, it never ceases me the capacity dogs have to adjust, settle and move on. They don't hold onto loss in the same way we humans do. Neither do I think this is something that is just done in the 'show world'. It happens in the working and pet worlds too. What about the much loved family pet that, due to personal circumstances (marriage breakup, financial difficulty etc) where the dog is being left for long periods and cannot cope! Would you suggest that they keep the dog because they bought it for life, in spite of it not being happy? I'm sure you wouldnt, and I agree that far too many are given up too easily when alternative arrangements can be made if there is the commitment to do so, but there are cases (albeit the minority) where it really is done in the best interests of the dog.


i know it happens in other cases too but i assumed this thread is about showing hence why i was only referring to the show world lol :confused1:

I do understand that some cases are for the dogs benefit, and i also do know dogs dont go through the "loss" like humans do.

But... if it comes to a situation hobby (showing) vs dog, i personally would choose my dog. And thats how i am and thats how i think. 
I believe its totally different compared to a situation where finances are difficult, a break up or if someone HAS to leave the dog alone and cant affford the care while they arent there and the dog cannot cope, then obviously rehoming is a understandable choice to do.


----------



## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

> I think there is a fine line, but important one between rehoming in the best interests of the dog and rehoming because it is more convenient for the owners.


I think, undoubtedly, that there are many situations when the dog benefits from being re-homed but I also think it would be too easy to use this to validate flippant reasons for re-homing. I know someone who has acquired and subsequently sold on more dogs in the last year than they have had hot dinners. Rehoming will have benefited the dogs because they are (likely) to now be a part of a loving, committed family that give them walks and the attention they deserve, which is great, but this doesn't make what the original owners are doing OK IMO because I think it would be better in the first instance not to have bought the puppies in the knowledge you'll just sell them on if you no longer decide you want it because it didn't meet your expectations and is taking up space that a "better" dog could have.

In a situation like this, the end is good but the 'means to', isn't.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> u just hear so often of show folk who get a dog for showing, the dog doesnt pay off as either wasnt good example or wasnt too happy in the ring, and dog is being rehomed.


The dog was actually the BEST speciment of the breed I've ever bought in - travelling two 12 hour round trips to view and then collect him.

His breeding was superb, his retrieving instinct was excellent and his temperament to die for - and he was yellow carrying black and chocolate, PRA and CNM Clear with a clear eye certificate and would have had good hip and elbow scores - so clearly, it would have paid handsomely for me to have kept him.

It was one of the most heartbreaking decisions I've ever made - having spoken to a LOT of people who I turned away without even meeting them as they weren't right for my boy - the family he went to was right and he has the most fantastic life - a life I could never have given him - it was love at first sight for him, the new owners and their dog.

The amount of money I lost in viewing, buying, insuring, chipping, showing and health testing him ran into thousands - which I think makes it VERY clear that the decision was not in my best interest

The easy route would have been to keep him - the right route was leaving him go to a setting where he could be what he wants to be 24/7 every day of the year - where he now roams the 80 acres at his leisure and has a life I could only dream of giving him.

And yes, I have dogs I leave behind, my eldest who suffered a neck injury - and another one who hurt her leg on the beach - and has hip scores way too high to be bred from - both are still with me - one is undergoing intensive physio as she lives to show, in the hope we can get her back doing what she loves most, but if she doesn't - she's still here for life - the other, I didn't feel I wanted to go through the hassle after surgery of getting permission to show her just a couple of times a year in veteran.

It wasn't a decision of convenience, I have other dogs who are left behind and kept despite not being shown / bred from - but the decision for this particular dog is he deserved much more than he would get living with us -where again, the easiest decision all round would have been for him to stay, and not leave my other boy feeling a bit like a fish out of water at times.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

swarthy said:


> The dog was actually the BEST speciment of the breed I've ever bought in - travelling two 12 hour round trips to view and then collect him.
> 
> His breeding was superb, his retrieving instinct was excellent and his temperament to die for - and he was yellow carrying black and chocolate, PRA and CNM Clear with a clear eye certificate and would have had good hip and elbow scores - so clearly, it would have paid handsomely for me to have kept him.
> 
> ...


This must have been a really heartbreaking decision for you. Well done you for putting the needs of this boy before your own needs or before any monetary considerations. :thumbup:

I would have sent you rep for this, but it says I've got to spread it about a bit first!


----------



## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I love showing my dogs, and most of my dogs love being shown, willow is a bit bored, but I dont take her that often, so her and bailey who is retired will stay at home being pampered by hubby, while the younger three come along with me to shows,

Mo


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> This must have been a really heartbreaking decision for you. Well done you for putting the needs of this boy before your own needs or before any monetary considerations. :thumbup:
> 
> I would have sent you rep for this, but it says I've got to spread it about a bit first!


Thank you - despite what anyone thinks - I cried all the way home and for most of the weekend  but I get regular feedback from my friend and his new owners and know I did the right thing.

It was strange, because the family had lost their old lab, who was a soul mate to their 'heinz 57' - they had looked at other dogs, and she didn't take to any of them -with Zac, the first day they had him they went to the beach and she was 'protecting him' - it was clearly meant to be


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I've never given it that much thought, but after going to Crufts this year seeing that most of the dogs seem to love the shown ring, I have wondered about showing Dillon, but I really can't see me running round the show ring, so may be not.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I've never given it that much thought, but after going to Crufts this year seeing that most of the dogs seem to love the shown ring, I have wondered about showing Dillon, but I really can't see me running round the show ring, so may be not.


:lol: why not? I even get my OH in the ring with my puppies and over the summer - try a couple of companion shows where you just turn up on the day and are usually about a £1 a class to enter - you might find you really enjoy it


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

I think that showing dogs for lots of people and dogs can be a great thing as I have a sister that has enjoyed showing her one dog and a couple of cats. When asked she claims she likes the social aspect.

I personally have never enjoyed going to shows . . . I really don't like it and find it a hassle just to go to watch and talk with exhibitors, so I can't imagine wanting to participate.

I am incredibly independent in nature and tend to have a low tolerance for group activities and socializing to begin with, so that it is not the shows to blame, just part of my nature probably - I tend to like my hermitting ways.

So those that do show, are you the socializing types to begin with?

I am curious as to what is it about going to shows that is found pleasurable.

CC


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

comfortcreature said:


> So those that do show, are you the socializing types to begin with?


I wouldn't say I am - I've actually had some pretty nasty health problems over the last couple of years and it's been my dogs that have kept me going - now I am on the mend - they are really keeping me on my toes 

I work from home - so unless I have a day out for meetings etc, can easily go all week without seeing any humans other than my OH - the showing gets me out of the house (as does the basic g/dog training we've recently started).


----------



## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Hmmm ....I've bred and shown dogs for over 25 years and have never rehomed a dog simply because it did not like showing - showing is enjoyable and fun and slightly addictive but at the end of the day it* is *just a hobby if the dog does not like taking part then just keep him as a pet - of the 6 dogs we currently have only 3 are shown the other 3 are either retired or simply don't enjoy it - would I move them on ? absoloutely not !- we either have a dog sitter in if we are going to be away for a long stretch of time ( i.e to Paignton , Wales or Scotland ) or make sure we are home at a reasonable time

Yvonne


----------



## Sophiex (Jul 27, 2008)

I don't disagree with showing but it's not for me.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Bijou said:


> Hmmm ....I've bred and shown dogs for over 25 years and have never rehomed a dog simply because it did not like showing - showing is enjoyable and fun and slightly addictive but at the end of the day it* is *just a hobby if the dog does not like taking part then just keep him as a pet - of the 6 dogs we currently have only 3 are shown the other 3 are either retired or simply don't enjoy it - would I move them on ? absoloutely not !- we either have a dog sitter in if we are going to be away for a long stretch of time ( i.e to Paignton , Wales or Scotland ) or make sure we are home at a reasonable time


You clearly didn't bother to read my other post - I ALSO have dogs I don't show - of my 6, just 3 are shown regularly and two at CH level - it happened to be the right decision for THAT dog and believe me, not an easy one - whatever you might think - for us, it was a decision made solely in the best interest of the DOG, to the right home for him, and if that home hadn't come along, he would still be here.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I have nothing against the actual showing side not for me though. However i do hate the way showing has changed some breeds for the worse, in past years and more recent years.


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I have nothing against the actual showing side not for me though. However i do hate the way showing has changed some breeds for the worse, in past years and more recent years.


without showing tho we woulnnt have alot of the breeds we have today 

During the Victorian times dog showing became more popular thus creating the need for an actual "breed"

I love showing personally, ive yet to see a dog at a show that wasnt enjoying themselves x


----------



## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

I'm all for it if the dog likes it  Took Holly to her first companion show and she loved it  Strutted her stuff around, with some pulling too, my fault for using her normal collar and lead as I left her show lead in the car


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> So those that do show, are you the socializing types to begin with?
> 
> I am curious as to what is it about going to shows that is found pleasurable.
> 
> CC


There are several pleasures in showing, but for me, the greatest pleasure is watching my dogs enjoying themsleves so much. For example, Baggio is ten years old in December, yet take him to a show and he prances around the ring like a two year old - he absolutely radiates happiness, so much so that in his write up the judge at Darlington last year actually mentioned how much Baggio was enjoying his day out. It doesn't matter to Baggio whether is placed or thrown out - he has been in the ring and he thoroughly enjoys it.

I also enjoy the soclal aspect - not surprising, really, when you are in a group of people whose interests mirror your own. Over the years I have formed some good friendships with people I have met at shows.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I have rehomed a dog who hated the ring, was a puppy I kept on, but things weren't meant to be. She was stunning and I was going to keep her as a brood bitch if the time was right instead. She got terribly sad when we left for the show with her litter sister (hence why running on 2 pups is a bad idea) so I thought it would be much better for her to be separated completely and homed her out on breeding terms. She had 2 litters, was spayed and stayed with her loan owner.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> I have rehomed a dog who hated the ring, was a puppy I kept on, but things weren't meant to be. She was stunning and I was going to keep her as a brood bitch if the time was right instead. She got terribly sad when we left for the show with her litter sister (hence why running on 2 pups is a bad idea) so I thought it would be much better for her to be separated completely and homed her out on breeding terms. She had 2 litters, was spayed and stayed with her loan owner.


My yellow girl is out of the ring at the moment, and she HATES it when she is left  she doesn't just look sad - she could easily give the neighbours a case for thinking we were strangling her as we are going out the door :scared:

Although we know for a fact (thanks to my daughter) she is asleep minutes after we've gone :lol: (she always has been a very good actress)


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

LMAO aren't they the best :thumbup:


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> There are several pleasures in showing, but for me, the greatest pleasure is watching my dogs enjoying themsleves so much. For example, Baggio is ten years old in December, yet take him to a show and he prances around the ring like a two year old - he absolutely radiates happiness, so much so that in his write up the judge at Darlington last year actually mentioned how much Baggio was enjoying his day out. It doesn't matter to Baggio whether is placed or thrown out - he has been in the ring and he thoroughly enjoys it.
> 
> I also enjoy the soclal aspect - not surprising, really, when you are in a group of people whose interests mirror your own. Over the years I have formed some good friendships with people I have met at shows.


I guess this is where we very much differ then. I have a great time with my dogs daily off lead exploring, and do very much enjoy watching them do that but I know that I don't enjoy watching dogs on lead.

I find I have very few interests in common with those that go to dog shows or exhibit dogs. My interest in dogs has very little to do with any of the "exhibiting" elements that are commonly at the center of conversations.

I know many others like myself, but then we have only a small percentage of registered dogs here, and a tiny show world that very few have taken part in.

Each to their own, and I very much mean that as I saw the enjoyment my sister found at shows, but I do believe the social aspect is the greatest attraction for some, as well as a great deterrent for others.

CC


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

comfortcreature said:


> I guess this is where we very much differ then. I have a great time with my dogs daily off lead exploring, and do very much enjoy watching them do that . . . I know that I don't enjoy watching dogs on lead . . . and I find I have very few interests in common with those that go to dog shows or exhibit dogs.
> 
> Each to their own, and I very much mean that as I saw the enjoyment my sister found at shows, but I do believe the social aspect is the greatest attraction for some, as well as deterrent for others.
> 
> CC


For me, it's seeing all the different dogs of all different breeds, all the youngsters, the golden oldies, all together and all happy as larry, watching my dogs socialise with other dogs, finding out that they absolutely adore dogs of certain breeds and honestly theres normally so much interestng stalls on health or nutrition. I love going walkies round the stalls afterwards and getting them stuff - we always leave with three toys of some sort, one for the two boys we have and one for the big brown bear at home :lol:. Dog shows are normally twice a month for us - the rest of the time the dogs are at the park, or the fields, swimming, going to obedience and agility, going to ringcraft, running in harness or else just digging holes in the garden or on their baack, legs in the air being lazy sod - showing isn't my dogs life, its part of it and we do it for fun. You'd probably fid if you met me on a walk you'd have lots in common with me and our dogs would have a blast because there is nothing to indicate i show my dogs - some people say their coats but even the big man who we don't show is very well groomed .. i like brushing them and they fall asleep during it lol :lol:. I understand why you feel that way - but there are some people in the show ring who do half decent and whos dogs aren't show dogs as such - just big clowns like everyone elses :lol: x


----------



## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I'll be leaving for a small open show in about 45 minutes its only 20 minutes away. I'll be taking 3 whippets with me Amber, Owen for the AV veteran class and Simba who may not be shown today as he sometimes looks a little stiff on the leg he had stitches in. He is ok for a while then appears stiff.My friend will look at him when we get there.


At the moment they are quiet but as soon as I start putting things into the car they will start screaming. Once the dogs are in the car I will have to wait for a few minutes to settle the others down Bandit, Freyja and Angel are not going but will want to Jasper will start howling just because thats what he does even though he's castrated so can't go anyway and that will start them all off. Tegan's not bothered she'd much rather have a litter of pups to look after than go to a show not that she'll be having any more. The nearest she'll have is she'll be able to mother Willow when he arrives.


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I think this is a common preconception and misunderstanding. Dogs are actually NOT happiest running around free, they are happiest DOING things. They thrive on interation and a 'job to do'. I see so many pet owners (whose dogs are happy enough - don't get me wrong, they are much loved and have good lives), but they are extremely under stimulated. I don't show my dogs, and don't like it, but that's me personally. I hate having to trot up and down for the judging of best looking when being in the awards at breed club working tests, but that is just me - the dogs don't mind a bit . My dogs have free time and being labs are incredibly sociable and will happily play with other dogs, but when the game bag comes out and they have a choice of training or running around free with other dogs (and often when I'm out the opportunity for that choice happens) they will always prefer to train and completely ignore other dogs.
> 
> So, what I'm trying to say, is that even if I don't personally show, I can quite see that it is the interation and attention that dogs crave, far more than their freedom . And that is the case in showing as well as the other more obvious disciplines like working, agility etc.


so just because i dont agree it is a preconception? I know molly would hate being cooped up for hours then expected to ponce around a ring having been puffed and perfumed so she looks the part. most dogs would prefer to be running around with other dogs having fun playing or woteva than confined for hours even if in the owners mind they are happy coz of the interaction.
I note many of you have been showing for a long time and spose your dogs dont now any diffrent but if they could talk what wud they say they prefer? but it is evryones own choise mine is that i wudnt do it and dont agree wiv it but dont have issues wiv peeple who do show


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> being cooped up for hours then expected to ponce around a ring having been puffed and perfumed


Sorry Mollydoodle, but if this is your idea of what happens at shows then it is a definite preconception. 



Mollydoodle said:


> I note many of you have been showing for a long time and spose your dogs dont now any diffrent but if they could talk what wud they say they prefer? but it is evryones own choise mine is that i wudnt do it and dont agree wiv it but dont have issues wiv peeple who do show


I actually find this rather insulting. Have you not read any of the posts on here properly? All of us who show love our dogs greatly and do lots of other things with them than showing - to have the narrow view of showing you seem to have, and then to insult us by saying our dogs only seem to like it because that it all they know, is absolute rubbish. Our dogs love it because they love it - simples!

Just like dogs who are not shown, ours are walked regularly, have long play sessions in the local woods, or on local fields, they love the beach, we do YKC agility and YKC flyball with them, we holiday in this country so that they can come on holiday with us, they have a huge garden to play in and the run of the house - they are much loved members of our family and they enjoy all aspects of their lives. But amongst ALL that, they also enjoy showing - or we would not do it with them. And if Baggio could talk, he would most definitely tell you that showing is the ONE thing he loves above everything else.


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2010)

i use to be under the misconception that dogs who are shown had sad boring lives but since a couple of my friends started showing and ive actually been along to shows to take a look for myself, i put my hands up and admit i was wrong

ive been to quite a few open shows with them now and a couple of champ shows and the dogs love it! open shows are especially relaxed there are no benches the dogs mingle with other dogs its great for them to socialise theyre allowed off lead in certain areas, at the champ shows they benched them for a short time after they had been walked but the dogs just relaxed and went to sleep on the bench it wasnt what i expected at all i will never slag the show world off again! just another point my friends dogs are in fantastic shape they are all extremely fit because they lead very active lives, apparently good judges always look for firm muscle tone so i would think people who show make more effort than a lot of pet owners to ensure their dogs are fit? i know my friends certainly do.

can i just add i know there will also be quite a few whos show dogs dont have good owners, unfortunatley theres bad in all walks of life, but what i have seen myself at shows has been really really good


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Shamen said:


> apparently good judges always look for firm muscle tone so i would think people who show make more effort than a lot of pet owners to ensure their dogs are fit? i know my friends certainly do.


You have hit the nail on the head here Shamen - it's one of the reasons why I get cross when people who don't know anything about showing automatically asssume that show dogs are unhealthy.

We have had direct experience of this ourselves. As a puppy Quinny had begun to look promising in the show ring - he had got as far as winning Pastoral Puppy Group 3 at a local open show - and then he had a massive allergic reaction to Frontline that caused his immune system to start attacking his own body and destroying his muscles. At once stage we thought we were going to lose him. But thanks to our wonderful vet he survived, and then we began the long road of trying to build back his muscles - no mean feat because even the muscles around his skull had been decimated. Of course, we would have done this whether or not he had been a show dog - but to be honest we thought that whilst we would be able to build up enough muscle for him to live a good life, we never thought we would ever get him up to show standard because that is so much more exacting.

But we did it, and I am so proud of him.

This is him as a pup








This is him just as he was starting to get better








This is how is is now








This is him winning Post Grad and qualifying for Crufts 2011 at the National Champ show in May this year








And just for Mollydoodle, this is him enjoying the seaside with his mother and brother (also show dogs)


----------



## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

Would never do it personally, but as long as the dog is a well loved pet then I see no problem with it at all


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Mollydoodle said:


> so just because i dont agree it is a preconception? I know molly would hate being cooped up for hours then expected to ponce around a ring having been puffed and perfumed so she looks the part. most dogs would prefer to be running around with other dogs having fun playing or woteva than confined for hours even if in the owners mind they are happy coz of the interaction.
> I note many of you have been showing for a long time and spose your dogs dont now any diffrent but if they could talk what wud they say they prefer? but it is evryones own choise mine is that i wudnt do it and dont agree wiv it but dont have issues wiv peeple who do show


Dogs aren't cooped up for hours on end then forced to 'ponce' around a ring. There is no puffing and perfuming - well not in my breeds anyway. Honestly, i don't see how your dogs life is any better than my dogs life . My dogs do run about and play with other dogs the same as yours do - i dare say more. But they do so much more than that, as i have stated in my previous post. Honestly, the majority of dogs that are shown that i know have a much better life than those of dogs who are nothing more/do nothing more than be a pet. If my dogs weren't happy then they wouldnt go - end of story. I swear the excitment in them when we get to a show is unbelievable, it's difficult to get through the bloody gates sometimes and the minute the car is parked hudson's woo woo wooing and barney's barking away. & no one looks at you as if you have a looney dog - because all the dogs are the same! They are soo excited to be at the show! They get that excited going to ringcraft, agility and obedience classes, they get that excited going swimming and they get that excited when they get their harnesses on - they don't get that excited when they get their leads out to go a walk - they get happy yes, but it's nothing special. It's fair enough if you don't like showing - but to be so ignorant as to base your opinion on that is quite rude . & btw - i haven't been showing for a long time - i only started showing last year and only regularly his year. My dogs aren't even two yet :lol:. & believe me if a mal or a newfie does not want to be shown then they won't be - they'll make sure of that lol :thumbup: x


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> You have hit the nail on the head here Shamen - it's one of the reasons why I get cross when people who don't know anything about showing automatically asssume that show dogs are unhealthy.
> 
> We have had direct experience of this ourselves. As a puppy Quinny had begun to look promising in the show ring - he had got as far as winning Pastoral Puppy Group 3 at a local open show - and then he had a massive allergic reaction to Frontline that caused his immune system to start attacking his own body and destroying his muscles. At once stage we thought we were going to lose him. But thanks to our wonderful vet he survived, and then we began the long road of trying to build back his muscles - no mean feat because even the muscles around his skull had been decimated. Of course, we would have done this whether or not he had been a show dog - but to be honest we thought that whilst we would be able to build up enough muscle for him to live a good life, we never thought we would ever get him up to show standard because that is so much more exacting.
> 
> ...


Totally agree :thumbup:. With malamutes and newfies muscle tone is essential - they are working breeds and they need to be fit and functional - more than i can say for the majority of pet newfs and mals who are fat to be frank . Well done for getting him over his illness! You'd never think he had been ill with the way he looks now! Gorgeous doggies i love them . WTG on taking the pg class at birmingham :thumbup:. BC have pretty big classes too don't they? x


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Freyja said:


> I'll be leaving for a small open show in about 45 minutes its only 20 minutes away. I'll be taking 3 whippets with me Amber, Owen for the AV veteran class and Simba who may not be shown today as he sometimes looks a little stiff on the leg he had stitches in. He is ok for a while then appears stiff.My friend will look at him when we get there.
> 
> At the moment they are quiet but as soon as I start putting things into the car they will start screaming. Once the dogs are in the car I will have to wait for a few minutes to settle the others down Bandit, Freyja and Angel are not going but will want to Jasper will start howling just because thats what he does even though he's castrated so can't go anyway and that will start them all off. Tegan's not bothered she'd much rather have a litter of pups to look after than go to a show not that she'll be having any more. The nearest she'll have is she'll be able to mother Willow when he arrives.


Good luck today  x


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

These sort of threads always make me laugh  People will never agree on whether showing is "right" or "wrong". TBH, just because one person loves to have their dog at home and spend time with them walking and stuff, doesnt mean its wrong that others love to take them to a show and spend time with them in that way.

I show my dogs (well, 2 of my 4 are just pampered pets as 1 doesnt like showing so he does a bit of obedience occassionally, and the other has "retired" from showing) and I love it and my dogs love it. I have had two that didnt like it, both boys incidentally! The first is the lab mentioned previously. He decided at about a year old he didnt like it so i dont show him anymore, it was never an issue. The other boy loved going to the shows and walking around shopping (and trying all the freebies!!lol) and meeting the other dogs, but he never seemed over enthused about the show ring. He would do everything nicely and politely and his tail wagged, he wasnt unhappy as such. But he just wasnt the same dog as he is outside the ring. So he doesnt show anymore and is just a pampered pet as well  But all of my other dogs absolutely love the show ring. A couple of them particularly love the big occassion and really know when all eyes are on them in the big ring! They know when its a show day in the morning when im getting stuff ready and they get very excited!

I dont think there is any right or wrong answer and people should be able to do whatever activities they wish with their dogs without being judged, as long as the dogs are happy! I do think that those of us who show just have a different type of personality to those who dont like showing. I know I have come from a horse background where I was out competing every weekend to a very high level. When I was unable to do that anymore (due to injury!) I had a go at showing my dogs as something to do with my weekends as I felt a bit... empty! Without having a hobby. And I love my animals and wanted a hobby to include them as they are a big part of my life. It progressed from local fun shows to a few years later competing successfully at champ shows. I know a lot of dog show people I've met have come from similar back grounds, very often with horses, but many also with cats, rats, rabbits, sports etc etc. Maybe it is just our personalities that make us want to do it lol Who knows! And a lot are born into dog show families of course.


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> These sort of threads always make me laugh  People will never agree on whether showing is "right" or "wrong". TBH, just because one person loves to have their dog at home and spend time with them walking and stuff, doesnt mean its wrong that others love to take them to a show and spend time with them in that way.
> 
> I show my dogs (well, 2 of my 4 are just pampered pets as 1 doesnt like showing so he does a bit of obedience occassionally, and the other has "retired" from showing) and I love it and my dogs love it. I have had two that didnt like it, both boys incidentally! The first is the lab mentioned previously. He decided at about a year old he didnt like it so i dont show him anymore, it was never an issue. The other boy loved going to the shows and walking around shopping (and trying all the freebies!!lol) and meeting the other dogs, but he never seemed over enthused about the show ring. He would do everything nicely and politely and his tail wagged, he wasnt unhappy as such. But he just wasnt the same dog as he is outside the ring. So he doesnt show anymore and is just a pampered pet as well  But all of my other dogs absolutely love the show ring. A couple of them particularly love the big occassion and really know when all eyes are on them in the big ring! They know when its a show day in the morning when im getting stuff ready and they get very excited!
> 
> I dont think there is any right or wrong answer and people should be able to do whatever activities they wish with their dogs without being judged, as long as the dogs are happy! I do think that those of us who show just have a different type of personality to those who dont like showing. I know I have come from a horse background where I was out competing every weekend to a very high level. When I was unable to do that anymore (due to injury!) I had a go at showing my dogs as something to do with my weekends as I felt a bit... empty! Without having a hobby. And I love my animals and wanted a hobby to include them as they are a big part of my life. It progressed from local fun shows to a few years later competing successfully at champ shows. I know a lot of dog show people I've met have come from similar back grounds, very often with horses, but many also with cats, rats, rabbits, sports etc etc. Maybe it is just our personalities that make us want to do it lol Who knows! And a lot are born into dog show families of course.


i dont think there is any right/wrong answer either hun but when people make sweeping statements when they have no experience of the show world and basically allege im making my dog unhappy by showing her it upsets me greatly  x


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

oh, me too. But i think they either dont understand the life of a show dog or have only seen the unpleasant side of showing which we all kow exists, like any other sport or activity like this. I spent a long time trying to educate people about how most show dogs are normal dogs 99% of the time, but sadly a lot just dont want to hear it. So i have given up. We all know our dogs have happy lives, and most of us share our stories and photos to prove it, so i refuse to justify myself to people who cant, or wont, understand my hobby 



Starlite said:


> i dont think there is any right/wrong answer either hun but when people make sweeping statements when they have no experience of the show world and basically allege im making my dog unhappy by showing her it upsets me greatly  x


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Jess2308 said:


> oh, me too. But i think they either dont understand the life of a show dog or have only seen the unpleasant side of showing which we all kow exists, like any other sport or activity like this. I spent a long time trying to educate people about how most show dogs are normal dogs 99% of the time, but sadly a lot just dont want to hear it. So i have given up. We all know our dogs have happy lives, and most of us share our stories and photos to prove it, so i refuse to justify myself to people who cant, or wont, understand my hobby


I think i'll follow suit :thumbup: x


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2010)

Yes agree, I only do fun dog shows, but in relation to serious ones, the dogs aren't harmed, it's nice the owner has a interest in doing something with his/her dog, and its nice to watch!! xx


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

keeleyjane19 said:


> Yes agree, I only do fun dog shows, but in relation to serious ones, the dogs aren't harmed, it's nice the owner has a interest in doing something with his/her dog, and its nice to watch!! xx


Erm - all of what you said applies to "serious" shows too! Championship and Open shows are fun, nice to watch, have owners doing something with their dogs - and no dogs are harmed!


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Totally agree :thumbup:. With malamutes and newfies muscle tone is essential - they are working breeds and they need to be fit and functional - more than i can say for the majority of pet newfs and mals who are fat to be frank . Well done for getting him over his illness! You'd never think he had been ill with the way he looks now! Gorgeous doggies i love them . WTG on taking the pg class at birmingham :thumbup:. BC have pretty big classes too don't they? x


Thank you for your nice comments! Yeah, border collies have large classes, although I have to admit that this one wasn't that huge - 13 if I remember correctly, but there may have been one or two who weren't there.


----------



## bassethome (Jun 5, 2010)

Hi There,

I see no problem in showing dogs providing the dogs enjoy it. 
What i do not agree with is breeders, breeding purely for the show ring. Some breeders breed their dogs only for that purpose and this means that the breed has to be up to a certain standard or as close to the standard as possible. I personally feel that this puts preasure on the breeder to be able to supply "the perfect show dog" this can in some instances mean that some breeders end up breeding purely thinking of how the end result will look (ie: the puppies) forgetting the most important fact of any creatures life, their health.

I have attended serval dog shows to look and have taken part in two many years ago, but this would not be for me now and I certainly wouldnt want a dog purely for its looks, its health and happiness is much more an important factor as far as im concerned. please remember though, there are many reputable breeders with the dogs health being the main priority, so I am not condeming them all. 

Another factor is their is so many unwanted dogs now, that taking a rescue dog on can be such a rewarding thing (takes a bit of work sometimes, but always worth it in the end).


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I think it depends on the person how committed to their dogs they are. I dont like to see dogs re homed due to the fact they didnt do well in the show ring. I have seen this happen and think its un called for, I am a beliver you get a pup/dog and keep it for life.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Thank you for your nice comments! Yeah, border collies have large classes, although I have to admit that this one wasn't that huge - 13 if I remember correctly, but there may have been one or two who weren't there.


13 is still a reasonable number though - and it's qualitly not quantity ! I suppose i look at like mallies & newfies - 13 is quite a big number in their rings lol! xx


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> 13 is still a reasonable number though - and it's qualitly not quantity ! I suppose i look at like mallies & newfies - 13 is quite a big number in their rings lol! xx


Heh heh - we're like that on the Import Register when we show Baggio - it's usually 4 or 5 in OD!  But there are regularly 20-odd border collies in the higher classes - and Crufts is just amazing - 31 in OD this year and 33 in OB! (There were 34 and 42 entries respectively but some didn't turn up!)


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Erm - all of what you said applies to "serious" shows too! Championship and Open shows are fun, nice to watch, have owners doing something with their dogs - and no dogs are harmed!


AYYY?? I said : "Yes agree, I only do fun dog shows, but in relation to serious ones, the dogs aren't harmed, it's nice the owner has a interest in doing something with his/her dog, and its nice to watch!! xx"

Which means, I go to fun dog shows (charity ones) but in relation to serious ones (crufts etc) the dogs aren't harmed, its nice the owner has interest etc..

So I was bigging up the serious ones...

Maybe you should read it properly in future and then judge

Oh and the fact I stated Yes I agree at the beginning of my post obviously means I agree with showing


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

keeleyjane19 said:


> AYYY?? I said : "Yes agree, I only do fun dog shows, but in relation to serious ones, the dogs aren't harmed, it's nice the owner has a interest in doing something with his/her dog, and its nice to watch!! xx"
> 
> Which means, I go to fun dog shows (charity ones) but in relation to serious ones (crufts etc) the dogs aren't harmed, its nice the owner has interest etc..
> 
> ...


Sorry - don't know why you have replied in such a hostile manner - my post was not judging you in any way?  

You have posted and (repeated here) that at fun dog shows, in relation to serious dogs shows, dogs aren't harmed. I was puzzled (and am still puzzled) why you think dogs are harmed at serious shows? What on earth is judgemental about that?


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Sorry - don't know why you have replied in such a hostile manner - my post was not judging you in any way?
> 
> You have posted and (repeated here) that at fun dog shows, in relation to serious dogs shows, dogs aren't harmed. I was puzzled (and am still puzzled) why you think dogs are harmed at serious shows? What on earth is judgemental about that?


Thats my point!!!! I am saying they are the same!!! They aren't harmed at serious ones!!

I was saying in relation with eachother they are the same because in both they aren't harmed... xx


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

keeleyjane19 said:


> Thats my point!!!! I am saying they are the same!!! They aren't harmed at serious ones!! xx


Right I now understand what you mean! And I agree with you! :thumbup:


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2010)

lol! xxx


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

bassethome said:


> Hi There,
> 
> I see no problem in showing dogs providing the dogs enjoy it.
> What i do not agree with is breeders, breeding purely for the show ring. Some breeders breed their dogs only for that purpose and this means that the breed has to be up to a certain standard or as close to the standard as possible. I personally feel that this puts preasure on the breeder to be able to supply "the perfect show dog" this can in some instances mean that some breeders end up breeding purely thinking of how the end result will look (ie: the puppies) forgetting the most important fact of any creatures life, their health.
> ...


Why does rescuing ALWAYS have to be brought up when talking about showing??? That irritates me so much on this forum. *Not everyone wants a rescue dog!!!!!!!!*

And what exactly do you think responsible breeders should be breeding for? If not for the show ring (ie as close to the breed standard as possible) then what, to supply demand from pet owners? And therefore just produce mediocre quality dogs by the hundreds?  No, breeders should produce pups for a purpose, be that showing or working. You are obviously very ill informed about show breeders as these people are infact the ones who pioneer many of the health tests available, and the ones who are pushing for new tests to become available. So, in reality, they are the ones supplying pet owners with healthier dogs. The majority of breed health problems comes from, in my experience, puppy farmers and "pet" breeders who are more interested in profit (Puppy farmers) or ignorant to what testing requirements their breed has as they are not actively involved in the breed or breeding to improve their breed as a whole ("Pet" breeders).


----------



## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

I used to hate the show world, and I do still blame it to an extent for exaggerations in certain breeds, I *know* the blame should be put with the breed clubs for their writing of the breed standards and with breeders for breeding in the exaggerations, *but* if it wasnt for the show world I dont think that those problems would exist, because people wouldnt be constantly trying to outdo each other.

Lets face it, us humans are just too competitive  lol

But my views on showing have changed since talking to show people on here, and knowing how muchthe dogs do love it :thumbup:

If my next pup is up to scratch I *may* show him, but he will be a pet 1st, a worker 2nd, and a show dog 3rd.

I would rather see all dogs worked how they were bred to rather than shown, but obviously thats not always possible


----------



## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

As I understand it, dog shows came about originally for the purpose of stock-men exhibiting their working terriers etc. in the way cattle are, i.e. to demonstrate their soundness as breeding stock.
Show dogs have to be KC registered and with the requirements now for health testing and screening for the susceptible breeds before breeding, it seems logical to me that, again, dogs will be exhibited to demonstrate their soundness in the* original* sense.
KC registration should be testament to a responsibly bred puppy, how many pet breeders are likely to do the testing required for the puppies to be KC reg.?
Yes, I love dog showing. If I am not actually showing a dog then I enjoy sitting around my breed ring watching the judging. I know that to some folk that is like watching paint dry, but each to their own.


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Sorry Mollydoodle, but if this is your idea of what happens at shows then it is a definite preconception.
> 
> I actually find this rather insulting. Have you not read any of the posts on here properly? All of us who show love our dogs greatly and do lots of other things with them than showing - to have the narrow view of showing you seem to have, and then to insult us by saying our dogs only seem to like it because that it all they know, is absolute rubbish. Our dogs love it because they love it - simples!
> 
> Just like dogs who are not shown, ours are walked regularly, have long play sessions in the local woods, or on local fields, they love the beach, we do YKC agility and YKC flyball with them, we holiday in this country so that they can come on holiday with us, they have a huge garden to play in and the run of the house - they are much loved members of our family and they enjoy all aspects of their lives. But amongst ALL that, they also enjoy showing - or we would not do it with them. And if Baggio could talk, he would most definitely tell you that showing is the ONE thing he loves above everything else.


so coz i disagree with your view mine is wrong and insulting? where was I insulting? I gave my opinion as I see it as has evryone on here and i have read every post on this thread thanks. I have worked at dog shows including crufts so my opinion is not based on narrowmindedness or ignorance but wot ive seen myself. So, you show and I don't but I'm not insulting you or anyone else who does and ive stated that already. try a chill pill it might help coz sum peeple on here get very defensive and see thingks peeple havent written. why get so defensive?


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> 13 is still a reasonable number though - and it's qualitly not quantity ! I suppose i look at like mallies & newfies - 13 is quite a big number in their rings lol! xx


Conversely, it's quite small for a Lab class


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Mollydoodle said:


> so just because i dont agree it is a preconception? I know molly would hate being cooped up for hours then expected to ponce around a ring having been puffed and perfumed so she looks the part. most dogs would prefer to be running around with other dogs having fun playing or woteva than confined for hours even if in the owners mind they are happy coz of the interaction.
> I note many of you have been showing for a long time and spose your dogs dont now any diffrent but if they could talk what wud they say they prefer? but it is evryones own choise mine is that i wudnt do it and dont agree wiv it but dont have issues wiv peeple who do show


You have some VERY strange ideas - I can only assume your 'working' at shows is limited to Crufts - where, I think the large majority of exhibitors will agree does differ in many ways to others shows, including the rules on arrival and leaving times, and the need for benching so the 'PAYING PUBLIC' can view the dogs.

I've been showing for just 3.5 years - hardly a lifetime, my dogs run on the beach, in the park, in the mud, in the garden, they go gundog training and they go to shows - sometimes they just chill out on the settee - but whatever they are doing, they are happy (complete and utter nutters in fact)

As for preening and puffing up, there's not much of that to do with most of the gundogs (by far the largest group in the showring) - and TBH - there aren't a ridiiculous number of breeds which need preening, and in the main, their coat types dictate that they should be getting this irrespective of whether they are shown - just like a Labs coat for example, needs very minimal care.

I can accept anyone not wanting to show their dog, it isn't an activity everyone will enjoy - but to make sweeping and inaccurate statements about the show world, and speaking for their dog when they've presumably never actually tried makes me laugh - you must have a very special dog mind reading talent.

The ONLY way you can find out if a dog enjoys showing is to take them in the ring and find out - I can accept a human saying it isn't for them - even if they don't know anything about it - but to say their dogs won't enjoy it - maybe you should be joining the ranks of CM and VS with such insight.


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> so just because i dont agree it is a preconception? I know molly would hate being cooped up for hours then expected to ponce around a ring having been puffed and perfumed so she looks the part. most dogs would prefer to be running around with other dogs having fun playing or woteva than confined for hours even if in the owners mind they are happy coz of the interaction.
> I note many of you have been showing for a long time and spose your dogs dont now any diffrent but if they could talk what wud they say they prefer? but it is evryones own choise mine is that i wudnt do it and dont agree wiv it but dont have issues wiv peeple who do show


WHen was the last time you saw a malamute "ponce" around the ring hun?

Better yet, what kind of preening and perfuming do you think these unaltered working dogs get??

My malamutes AND chi's when i showed them got a bath the night before and a good brush - THATS IT.

We tend to get there early and if its a local show were normally away after our class is done so my dog is not cooped up at all.

SHe is currently being trained in harness to pull which will take at least a year of training to get her up to competing standard and as said before working dogs like mine must be in peak condition with good muscle tone or the judge will tell you off more often than not!


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

"preening and perfuming" lol!!

Mine are lucky if they get a brush before they go in the ring!! They get a bath a couple of nights before (cos they are WALKED twice a day and get muddy like normal dogs!) and then thats it really! I dont have coated breeds because there is a lot of grooming involved, but that is just RESPONSIBLE OWNERSHIP!! Those breeds require a lot of grooming, doesnt make them poncey and perfumed


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> so coz i disagree with your view mine is wrong and insulting? where was I insulting? why get so defensive?


You can express any view you want to express - but you have to take the consequences when you do. I felt you were being insulting when you said that for people who had been showing a long time, their dogs only like it because they were not used to anything else. There are many posts on here than show otherwise - ie that show dogs do a lot more than just showing. Not being defensive, just trying to make you stop and read and take in what you read.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

> that for people who had been showing a long time, their dogs only like it because they were not used to anything else.


New puppies aren't used to it but still enjoy it :confused1:


----------



## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Verbatim said:


> ...Following on from another thread, I thought it could make an interesting discussion
> 
> So, do you agree with showing dogs, and if not - what don't you like about it?
> 
> Please remember that this a discussion and everyone is entitled to their opinion whether you agree with it or not


The only reason I did'nt agree with my former boss showing her dogs is because she would always be obsessed. She chalked her westies and got a ban from shows for so long and one of my fav dogs was sold to an american so she could be an international champion aswell as a national  I left after that as I loved my dogs and thought it heartless to do this to a 4 year old dog!!


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I understand why people sell their best dogs abroad. I see no problem of selling a dog on at all providing it is sold on responsibly. I'm not bothered what the reason is, providing the dog is relocated via the correct channels to the best possible people. They often adapt very well to their new life, and if they don't they are sent back to their former owner.


----------



## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> I understand why people sell their best dogs abroad. I see no problem of selling a dog on at all providing it is sold on responsibly. I'm not bothered what the reson is, providing the dog is relocated via the correct channels to the best possible people. They often adapt very well to their new life, and if they don't they are sent back to their former owner.


Are you following me lol your not quoting me but?? Its up to you as a breeder to do whatever you want with your dogs but as the one who looked after them I was torn apart by her being sold for 3,000 dollars and having to endure a flight to america. Sorry still gets to me the heartless calous money grabber my ex boss was


----------



## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

I fail to see why anyone has a problem with dog showing. The dogs are well looked after and well presented, if they are not happy they will not show their best. They are not ill treated, it is a few minutes in the ring, once a week or so, and for the vast majority the same sort of life every one else's dog gets.
Granted there are the big kennels with lots of dogs that don't get individual attention, which is a little sad, but there are probably many more "pets" who don't get much attention or are allowed to be obese, have rotten teeth and overgrown nails etc. and that makes me sad too.:frown:


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> Are you following me lol your not quoting me but?? Its up to you as a breeder to do whatever you want with your dogs but as the one who looked after them I was torn apart by her being sold for 3,000 dollars and having to endure a flight to america. Sorry still gets to me the heartless calous money grabber my ex boss was


Lol, I should have quoted you. Doing it for the money IMO is wrong, but doing it to show off how fabulous a dog is I think is a better reason. If the dog enjoys his job and has done all he can over here.

I personally couldn't do it after a long time like that though, I get too attached, just like I've never sold an oldie on after their job is finished. I have sold on youngsters who didn't quite make it or enjoy it, after being neutered to a pet home, and have loaned out breeding bitches who have stayed with their loaners after having their litter(s) and being spayed.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> I have sold on youngsters who didn't quite make it or enjoy it, after being neutered to a pet home, and have loaned out breeding bitches who have stayed with their loaners after having their litter(s) and being spayed.


did or do u show/breed more as a business or a hobby?? 
Just curious 

As i really dont understand people how they can pass on a beloved dog just because it didnt "make it"....


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

pickle said:


> Ibut there are probably many more "pets" who don't get much attention or are allowed to be obese, have rotten teeth and overgrown nails etc. and that makes me sad too.:frown:


Damn good point. It is incredibly rare to see a show dog with a matt in their coat, nails too long, dirty ears, obese, fleas etc compared to "pet" dogs.

If you did statistics for all show dogs where you ticked a box if they had *any* of the above and compared it to "pet" only dogs who had a tick if presented with any of the above. I take an educated guess that maybe 1-2% of show dogs have a tick and 30-35%+ of "pet" only dogs have a tick.

This is not getting on at anyone on here with "pet" only dogs because nearly everyone on here is a responsible owner, but unfortunately there are very few responsible owners in this country :crying:


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

No worries Tanya, I love my pet dogs :thumbup:


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> did or do u show/breed more as a business or a hobby??
> Just curious
> 
> As i really dont understand people how they can pass on a beloved dog just because it didnt "make it"....


There was a recently a woman found to have somewhere in the region of 100 dogs in her home because she couldn't part with any of them, and she's far from an isolated case.

Like Tanya - I clearly don't see anything wrong with it in the right circumstances - sometimes, really loving someone or something means having to let them go - however hard it might be.

I didn't advertise my boy when he went - everyone who came to be was through word of mouth simply because I am a breeder - often you have people who don't want young puppies but part trained older puppies / young dogs for all sorts of reasons.

As I've said in previous posts, I had turned away many people because they weren't the right home - and fully anticipated he would be with me for life - but an opportunity came along for him that was just so right for him and his new family, it would have been simply wrong for me not to let him go.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

swarthy said:


> There was a recently a woman found to have somewhere in the region of 100 dogs in her home because she couldn't part with any of them, and she's far from an isolated case.
> 
> Like Tanya - I clearly don't see anything wrong with it in the right circumstances - sometimes, really loving someone or something means having to let them go - however hard it might be.
> 
> ...


maybe she shouldnt of have breeding or buying so many in the first place lol

Are u really of the opinion that passing on a dog just because it "didnt quite make it" or it didnt like showing are good enough reasons??? 
I find that rather very selfish considering that showing is only a hobby and the dog unfortunatly didnt suit it well enough :frown:


----------



## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Natik said:


> did or do u show/breed more as a business or a hobby??
> Just curious
> 
> As i really dont understand people how they can pass on a beloved dog just because it didnt "make it"....


She used to run it like a business. I tried to bring a bit of sparkle into those dogs lives. Her sealyham bitch had no emotions at all and when she started showing them I had a row for ruining a perfectly good show dog?? I ask you lol cos I played with her and showed her love  I am not accusing all of you of doing that just saying why I don't like dog showing.


----------



## yorkiegal (May 30, 2010)

I went to the Otley Country Fair a few weeks ago and watched the dog show there. It was just a bit of fun really for pet owners. At least it was meant to be, until one couple started arguing that their little precious should have won rather than the other dog, and that it shouldn't have been in that class anyway because it wasn't a terrier. The class was actually for small dogs lol. 

They did have a great class for best rescue dog though, in which there was a beautiful three legged boxer/staffy cross. 

I made one attempt at showing my old boxer many years ago. She enjoyed it but I was a bag of nerves.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> maybe she shouldnt of have breeding or buying so many in the first place lol
> 
> Are u really of the opinion that passing on a dog just because it "didnt quite make it" or it didnt like showing are good enough reasons???
> I find that rather very selfish considering that showing is only a hobby and the dog unfortunatly didnt suit it well enough :frown:


But if they dog is being left out all the time because you were taking the others to the show surely it is fairer *on the dog* to rehome it with a nice family.

Surely it is like breeding a litter of puppies for show, you keep the one that has the potential and rehome/ sell the ones that don't.


----------



## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> She used to run it like a business. I tried to bring a bit of sparkle into those dogs lives. Her sealyham bitch had no emotions at all and when she started showing them I had a row for ruining a perfectly good show dog?? I ask you lol cos I played with her and showed her love  I am not accusing all of you of doing that just saying why I don't like dog showing.


That sealyham bitch was the one that was carted off to america!!! Sorry


----------



## AmberNero (Jun 6, 2010)

I enjoyed watching crufts this year, but only because since the bbc expose some changes have been made to improve some of the more seriously afflicted breeds welfare. I still feel a little uncomfortable about it, but at a basic level I think dog showing is about celebrating the animal as a worker and companion and as beautiful, graceful creatures.
There are still some problems I take issue with, though. For instance, though I think the British bulldog is really a lovely looking dog, and I know they have fantastic personalities, I personally wouldn't own one as I feel strongly that any human interference that results in a dog being unable to give birth naturally is morally wrong _in my opinion_.
To end positively though, the dogs at shows seem happy and eager to be there, and are clearly well-cared for.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> She used to run it like a business. I tried to bring a bit of sparkle into those dogs lives. Her sealyham bitch had no emotions at all and when she started showing them I had a row for ruining a perfectly good show dog?? I ask you lol cos I played with her and showed her love  I am not accusing all of you of doing that just saying why I don't like dog showing.


It is sad that you have been introduced to showing like this... If introduced to it correctly by a responsible owner you would probably love it. Its very rewarding, very addictive and great to do something one on one with each of your dogs. Mine love it. They are spoiled at home too though, I must add. But when I bring out the show bag all hell breaks loose! :thumbup:


----------



## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

yorkiegal said:


> I went to the Otley Country Fair a few weeks ago and watched the dog show there. It was just a bit of fun really for pet owners. At least it was meant to be, until one couple started arguing that their little precious should have won rather than the other dog, and that it shouldn't have been in that class anyway because it wasn't a terrier. The class was actually for small dogs lol.
> 
> They did have a great class for best rescue dog though, in which there was a beautiful three legged boxer/staffy cross.
> 
> I made one attempt at showing my old boxer many years ago. She enjoyed it but I was a bag of nerves.


My aunty was attacked VERBALLY by a woman after my aunt had won the oldest dog class with Ringo who was 16 !! the other woman did'nt believe that Ringo was older than her dog lol. How petty is that!!


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> But if they dog is being left out all the time because you were taking the others to the show surely it is fairer *on the dog* to rehome it with a nice family.
> 
> Surely it is like breeding a litter of puppies for show, you keep the one that has the potential and rehome/ sell the ones that don't.


ehmmm, no. Showing is a hobby, if any of my dogs would suffer cause of it i change it or make sure i make arrangements they are cared for in the time bwing or simply i dont get the dog in the first place.

Yes, i keep the one with potential but if it doesnt turn out the way it was meant to be then i dont get rid of the dog....

Its all down as to WHY u want a dog, purely for ur hobby or business such a showing/breeding or as a family member i suppose....


----------



## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> It is sad that you have been introduced to showing like this... If introduced to it correctly by a responsible owner you would probably love it. Its very rewarding, very addictive and great to do something one on one with each of your dogs. Mine love it. They are spoiled at home too though, I must add. But when I bring out the show bag all hell breaks loose! :thumbup:


Thanks Tanya  It broke my heart to walk away from those dogs but she was going to sack me anyway for being to emotionally involved with them. To her they were just a piece of paper. I am enjoying showing my dogs  Be it only charity shows but I do love it and so do my dogs


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> ehmmm, no. Showing is a hobby, if any of my dogs would suffer cause of it i change it or make sure i make arrangements they are cared for in the time bwing or simply i dont get the dog in the first place.


I parted with one who hated showing, but when I took the others out, despite humans and other dogs being at home, pined for the time we were away, 3 or 4 days in some cases. I thought it was best for her in the long run to be permanently separated from the dog she pined for when gone and rehomed her with a family with 2 others. She really blossomed with character when rehomed and although I missed her at home I knew that keeping her was unfair on her and in actual fact would have been selfish.

I have no regrets about parting with her, in the end I did the best for her.


----------



## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

I don't think anyone should sit in judgement regarding re-homing a dog, if the dog has been found a home at least as good as the one it is leaving. We can never know when we might have to do something incredibly difficult and it is never easy to take some decisions in life. I had to re-home a bitch after my husband died because she started picking on my old GSP, and I just couldn't cope. Fortunately she has a wonderful home, as an only dog, and a loving family who adore her.
Far worse are so called "breeders" who sell their puppies to just whoever has the cash, with no real care about the home it is going to. If someone feels that they will be doing their best by a dog by finding it a better home for a genuine reason then that is not wrong or irresponsible, rather the opposite I would say. 
There are some very large kennels that do re-home their ex show dogs or "breeding stock" (not a term I like) and whilst I don't care for the concept myself I have to say those dogs end up enjoying a home life as opposed to kennel life for their retirement.


----------



## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> I parted with one who hated showing, but when I took the others out, despite humans and other dogs being at home, pined for the time we were away, 3 or 4 days in some cases. I thought it was best for her in the long run to be permanently separated from the dog she pined for when gone and rehomed her with a family with 2 others. She really blossomed with character when rehomed and although I missed her at home I knew that keeping her was unfair on her and in actual fact would have been selfish.
> 
> I have no regrets about parting with her, in the end I did the best for her.


:thumbup: I wish I had worked for you all those years ago


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> I parted with one who hated showing, but when I took the others out, despite humans and other dogs being at home, pined for the time we were away, 3 or 4 days in some cases. I thought it was best for her in the long run to be permanently separated from the dog she pined for when gone and rehomed her with a family with 2 others. She really blossomed with character when rehomed and although I missed her at home I knew that keeping her was unfair on her and in actual fact would have been selfish.
> 
> I have no regrets about parting with her, in the end I did the best for her.


u think it would be selfish to keep her, i find its selfish to continue with a hobby regardless of one of the dogs being unhappy about it.

By buying a dog or keeping a pup u take a risk knowing it might not be for the show ring and also at the same time u commit urself to this particular dogs life and i believe if u knowingly take this risk then u should stand up to ur commitment and not pass on the dog so u can carry on with something u dont have to but want to.... 

im not judging im just airing my view btw lol


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> maybe she shouldnt of have breeding or buying so many in the first place lol
> 
> Are u really of the opinion that passing on a dog just because it "didnt quite make it" or it didnt like showing are good enough reasons???
> I find that rather very selfish considering that showing is only a hobby and the dog unfortunatly didnt suit it well enough :frown:


I said originally I felt I was being judged and clearly I am.

Please tell me exactly what was selfish about my decision to move my dog on?

Was it the fact that I lost a considerable amount of money in doing so?
Was it the fact that I lost a lot of potential income in not keeping him?

Dogs have different types of characters - my dogs all enjoy a very varied life of which showing forms a small but key part.

If I was selfish - my bitch with the high hipscores who couldn't be bred from would be gone - would I be investing massive time, effort (not to mention money) in physiotherapy and related activities to correct her current health problem? I have a QUEUE of people who would take her off my hands tomorrow.

If I was selfish, my bitch who has finished her breeding life and then suffered a neck injury which means my intention to show her in veteran were scuppered would have gone by now - lord knows, there have been many offers.

If I was selfish - would my bitch from my last but one litter who doesn't really enjoy the showring still be with me?

Many would say get rid of all three and replace - the decision I made was based solely on the needs of the DOG - not MY needs - if that family hadn't come along - he would have still been here - because he was a very special boy who needed a very special family

Selfish would have been keeping him here.

My dogs ARE my life. they always have been - from the first dog I ever owned - to the several years I spent working in kennels when sadly my dream of working in the veterinary profession was smashed because of severe allergies to a number of other animals.

In the last few years, our family has been to hell and back through illness, each and every one of my dogs are the reason I get up every day - my showing has injected a bit of socialisation and sanity into my life - they are the reason I make my business (not dog related) survive - so that I can ensure they continue to enjoy the life they do.

Every spare penny I have goes on my dogs, I don't buy clothes, I don't drink, I never go to the pub and lucky if I go out for a meal once in a year.

If you wish to see me as a selfish person, that's your prerogative - but I've spent the last 21 years doing what's best for my daughter, and the last 7 doing what's best for my family and my dogs - and if that means rehoming one for reasons which I feel are justified, I would do the same again.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Natik said:


> u think it would be selfish to keep her, i find its selfish to continue with a hobby regardless of one of the dogs being unhappy about it.


So you feel it's better to stop all the dogs doing something they really enjoy because one dog is unhappy about it, ie making all the dogs except one unhappy, rather than rehome the one unhappy dog so that all the dogs are happy?


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

swarthy said:


> I said originally I felt I was being judged and clearly I am.
> 
> Please tell me exactly what was selfish about my decision to move my dog on?


i think u have to stop taking my posts so personal lol 

I was referring with selfish to those reasons i mentioned in my post, if they apply to u then thats how it is ....


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> So you feel it's better to stop all the dogs doing something they really enjoy because one dog is unhappy about it, ie making all the dogs except one unhappy, rather than rehome the one unhappy dog so that all the dogs are happy?


are u saying the other dogs dont enjoy anything else? :confused1:


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Natik said:


> u think it would be selfish to keep her, i find its selfish to continue with a hobby regardless of one of the dogs being unhappy about it.
> 
> By buying a dog or keeping a pup u take a risk knowing it might not be for the show ring and also at the same time u commit urself to this particular dogs life and i believe if u knowingly take this risk then u should stand up to ur commitment and not pass on the dog so u can carry on with something u dont have to but want to....
> 
> im not judging im just airing my view btw lol


But do you , did you show? its a hobby and its addictive, with the welfare of the dogs in mind


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

swarthy said:


> I said originally I felt I was being judged and clearly I am.
> 
> Please tell me exactly what was selfish about my decision to move my dog on?
> 
> ...


Don't let the odd one or two on here who can't see past the end of their noses, and who love to deliberately stir things, get you down hun. Most people on here understand perfectly why you did what you did, and how unselfish and heartbreaking it was for you to do so.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Natik said:


> are u saying the other dogs dont enjoy anything else? :confused1:


Are you saying the rehomed dog is not happy


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> But do you , did you show? its a hobby and its addictive, with the welfare of the dogs in mind


i do show, yes  if it gets addictive, then it becomes a problem lol



Spellweaver said:


> Don't let the odd one or two on here who can't see past the end of their noses and who love to deliberately stir things get you down hun. Most people on here understand perfectly why you did what you did, and how unselfish and heartbreaking it was for you to do so.


if u referr to me with ur first comment then i find u rather getting personal and insulting ...


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Are you saying the rehomed dog is not happy


im saying the reason for rehoming the dog isnt a valid one and im NOT referring to anyone here, just to the examples i gave !!!

But hold on, my dog doesnt suit my furniture, but as long its happy with someone else my reasoning to rehome is perfectly acceptable :thumbup:


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> i think u have to stop taking my posts so personal lol
> 
> I was referring with selfish to those reasons i mentioned in my post, if they apply to u then thats how it is ....


Explain HOW they apply to me - you are generalising by making statements that it is selfish to rehome a dog because it didn't make the grade -

For the record, this dog DID make the grade - qualifying for Crufts at 8 months old - no mean feat for a newbie exhibitor in a breed as numerically large as ours.

Do you actually bother reading anything that's posted that might make you reflect on your view of me being selfish for rehoming ONE dog out of the four I could have done so - or are you so tunnel visioned that you cannot see further than what are clearly the owners needs in being unable to part with them.

Selfish would have been keeping him - and I would happily have done so - but I put his needs ahead of my own and made a number of other people very happy in the process.

Selfish means putting your own needs above those of others - I am failing to see how I did that.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Natik said:


> if u referr to me with ur first comment then i find u rather getting personal and insulting ...


I think the best way to reply to this is to quote what you yourself said to a poster who felt you were attacking her:



Natik said:


> i think u have to stop taking my posts so personal lol
> 
> ........... if they apply to u then thats how it is ....


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Natik said:


> i think u have to stop taking my posts so personal lol
> 
> I was referring with selfish to those reasons i mentioned in my post, if they apply to u then thats how it is ....





swarthy said:


> Explain HOW they apply to me - you are generalising by making statements that it is selfish to rehome a dog because it didn't make the grade -
> 
> For the record, this dog DID make the grade - qualifying for Crufts at 8 months old - no mean feat for a newbie exhibitor in a breed as numerically large as ours.
> 
> ...


ok, im not sure if u are the one reading my posts here properly... i point it out in red for u


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Natik said:


> u think it would be selfish to keep her, i find its selfish to continue with a hobby regardless of one of the dogs being unhappy about it.
> 
> By buying a dog or keeping a pup u take a risk knowing it might not be for the show ring and also at the same time u commit urself to this particular dogs life and i believe if u knowingly take this risk then u should stand up to ur commitment and not pass on the dog so u can carry on with something u dont have to but want to....
> 
> im not judging im just airing my view btw lol


In which case I would not only be upsetting myself as my hobby is more of a way of life now, but I'd have upset the rest of the dogs also who enjoy going out to their shows. In the end it was fairer on her as being that stressed whenever we had to leave (for anything including a vet trip, walking if the stressed had an injury etc).

Its not possible to take all the dogs everywhere at the same time. I did my best by her. Yes, it was upsetting for me. I was heartbroken. I visited her regularly (sadly she is no longer alive) and she had a wonderful life with a wonderful family in a huge house and garden, her own river/ pondy thing to swim in. Like I said she really came out of her shell when away from the dog she relied upon.

All the dogs I have rehomed have always gone to a great home (touch wood  ). I keep in touch with them all. I try to do my best by all my critters, but like with people, you can't please them all, just like you can't please all people. You have to adjust to do whats the best for the ones dependent ie the dogs and I know I did.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I think the best way to reply to this is to quote what you yourself said to a poster who felt you were attacking her:


what did i say wrong


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

i do show, yes if it gets addictive, then it becomes a problem lol

Wasnt a problem for me, I managed to stop
But do intend to start again


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> i do show, yes if it gets addictive, then it becomes a problem lol
> 
> Wasnt a problem for me, I managed to stop
> But do intend to start again


thats good news, as long u have it under control thats great :thumbup:


----------



## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Natik said:


> what did i say wrong


I don't think anyone of you on here are selfish for rehoming your dogs. I gave a dog to my brother the other day because she was a mans dog and I could'nt cope with her. 
I'll tell you what selfish is. Dogs only ever going out when theres a class in a show you want to enter!! Keeping a dog ,that failed the first time in the ring, in a kennel cos hes no good !! Instead of giving him to someone else who could nurture him. Keeping 6 dogs stacked on top of each other in wooden boxes, that were only meant for carrying back and forth to shows,in the hallway all day and night except when I took them out!! Thats selfish!!!


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> what did i say wrong


You don't need to emphasise anything in red - because your comments, if you read them infer there are no acceptable circumstances for rehoming a dog - therefore - they are surely applicable to ANYONE who has rehomed - not "if they apply to you"



Natik said:


> As i really dont understand people how they can pass on a beloved dog just because it didnt "make it"....





Natik said:


> I just fail to see the need to rehome a dog in such a situation (and again im not judging its only my view on things and im only having a conversation lol), because he is being left behind on those occasions. Working families leave their dogs im sure behind for a lot longer during the week and the dogs adapt to it and are happy and well cared for.
> 
> I believe in buying a dog or keeping a pup from a litter for life and not for my hobby, hence why i find it difficult to understand certain decisions people make in regards to the show world and their dogs.


You've subsequently gone on to refer to such decisions as selfish, inferring that we may even be addicted to showing - so how can they, in your eyes, not apply to me?


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> I don't think anyone of you on here are selfish for rehoming your dogs. I gave a dog to my brother the other day because she was a mans dog and I could'nt cope with her.
> I'll tell you what selfish is. Dogs only ever going out when theres a class in a show you want to enter!! Keeping a dog ,that failed the first time in the ring, in a kennel cos hes no good !! Instead of giving him to someone else who could nurture him. Keeping 6 dogs stacked on top of each other in wooden boxes, that were only meant for carrying back and forth to shows,in the hallway all day and night except when I took them out!! Thats selfish!!!


To be fair I think that's only in extreme cases  You get both good and bad in dog ownership whether you're a pet owner, a shower, a breeder, do agility etc.


----------



## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

sequeena said:


> To be fair I think that's only in extreme cases  You get both good and bad in dog ownership whether you're a pet owner, a shower, a breeder, do agility etc.


This was in 1986 lol I don't even know if shes still showing or what!! But it was'nt a nice experience for me it being my first taste of the dog showing/breeding world. It made me think they were all like it. I know better now of course


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

swarthy said:


> You don't need to emphasise anything in red - because your comments, if you read them infer there are no acceptable circumstances for rehoming a dog - therefore - they are surely applicable to ANYONE who has rehomed - not "if they apply to you"
> 
> You've subsequently gone on to refer to such decisions as selfish, inferring that we may even be addicted to showing - so how can they, in your eyes, not apply to me?


ok, im not sure whats ur obsession is with me referring to u constantly.

with "make it" i was referring to the show ring, i also stated (shame u didnt quote that) that there are other valid and acceptable reasons for rehoming dogs. I will go and search for the post in the thread, give me a minute lol

also it wasnt me who mentioned addiction, hello??

Here u go 


Natik said:


> I believe its totally different compared to a situation where finances are difficult, a break up or if someone HAS to leave the dog alone and cant affford the care while they arent there and the dog cannot cope, then obviously rehoming is a understandable choice to do.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Remember dogs are sent aboad ect to gain new titles ect, but remember those dogs that are sent abroad tend to be sent there to import new lines ect and in other words better the breed. It's not people heartlessly parting with the dogs - they are entrusting the dogs normally with friends to better the breed they love so dearly and vice versa. Normally the dogs are at least 2 before this happens otherwise they wouldn't know if the dog was a good enough example in every aspect. I don't like seeing people part with their ex brood bitches ect but if they have their reasons and are genuinely doing it for the dogs good then they are being the more responsible owner i suppose. We have three dogs right now - two are shown, one is neutered and stays with my brother when we're away - my brothers dog grew up in our house and he took him when he moved out so Bronson and Harley have great fun meeting up again to cause havoc for a few nights lol :lol:x


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> I believe its totally different compared to a situation where finances are difficult, a break up or if someone HAS to leave the dog alone and cant affford the care while they arent there and the dog cannot cope, then obviously rehoming is a understandable choice to do.


You know full well that did not apply in my case - so why should I need to quote it.

Why am I 'constantly referring to you' - because it was me who mentioned rehoming a dog who didn't enjoy showing - you asked questions to which I responded - and eventually we arrive at the fact it is 'selfish' - your words, no-one elses


----------



## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

I believe that when any animal is seen as a 'tool of the trade' then for some becomes 'ok' for it to be disposed when it cannot fullfill it's usefulness - you can see this taking place on a larger scale in the Greyhound racing and hunting world where dogs are routinely got rid of when no longer useful 

I breed and show but would never refer to my dogs as 'brood bitches ' or view them soley as show dogs - they are MY dogs and they stay here irrespective of their usefulness ( or not ) to me .

I cannot believe that it is ever right to get rid of a dog because it does not enjoy your hobby. 

Yvonne


----------



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

bumped for forum reasons


----------



## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Yesterday I went to to my first open show in 6 months. I took 3 dogs and they all enjoyed it. I took Simba even though he was still lame after having is stitches out. He just went for a day out as he has been under house arrest for 10 days. I explained to the judge that even though I did have him with me I wasn't going to show him as he wasn't sound. The judge told me to fetch him and take him in the class as there was only 3 in it. I didn't move Simba with the others but did when he had been on the table.

I am waiting for the backlash on the whippet sites for taking a lame dog into the ring but the judge asked me to take him in. I spoke to the judge after and he said obviously the last time he was on the table he had had his stitches out so by taking him into the ring and letting the judge go over him showed him he was not always going to have something nasty happen. Simba is not the most confident of dogs on the table so the judge actualy did me a favour.


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

Starlite said:


> WHen was the last time you saw a malamute "ponce" around the ring hun?
> 
> Better yet, what kind of preening and perfuming do you think these unaltered working dogs get??
> 
> ...


were did i mention malamutes?


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> You can express any view you want to express - but you have to take the consequences when you do. I felt you were being insulting when you said that for people who had been showing a long time, their dogs only like it because they were not used to anything else. There are many posts on here than show otherwise - ie that show dogs do a lot more than just showing. Not being defensive, just trying to make you stop and read and take in what you read.


Thank you but I have taken in what i read and my views are still the same. I mite be in a minority on this thread but that doesn't mean my opinion is insulting or wrong ect. it is my view and until i get evidense to change it i will keep it thanks. it is one of the few strong prinsipals i have - that, cruelty and breeding and apart from those im more down the middle on stuff... dont even suggest that i have sed it is cruelty from the last co mment coz i wasn't


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Bijou said:


> I believe that when any animal is seen as a 'tool of the trade' then for some becomes 'ok' for it to be disposed when it cannot fullfill it's usefulness - you can see this taking place on a larger scale in the Greyhound racing and hunting world where dogs are routinely got rid of when no longer useful
> 
> I breed and show but would never refer to my dogs as 'brood bitches ' or view them soley as show dogs - they are MY dogs and they stay here irrespective of their usefulness ( or not ) to me .
> 
> I cannot believe that it is ever right to get rid of a dog because it does not enjoy your hobby.


Sometimes, one wonders why they bother wasting their breath because clearly there are some that are so tunnel visioned they don't read what's written or place their own interpretation on it.

The dog was rehomed because it was right for HIM not for me - clearly not a concept you are familiar with - because when it comes to my dogs, I will ALWAYS put their own interests before mine.


----------



## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree with the majority of the posts on here. So long as the dogs are happy and healthy then I see no problem with it whatsoever. It is good that now the breed clubs are addressing issues of health in the breed standards.
Myself and my husband had considered showing our Basset Hound (he is a pedigree and KC registered), but it isn't something we have ever done before, and aren't sure about the costs or travelling involved. Monty is a very happy puppy, but I think he is probably not the showing type, much prefers cuddles and sniffing everything in sight rather than walking nicely!
We enjoy watching crufts, and glad it was recently back on telly, albeit in a shortened form (and that male presenter was a totally wally!).


----------



## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Personally I don't really like showing dogs or horses but that said I've shown my own horse a couple of times (and experienced the thrill of him actually winning..which was quiet a shocker considering!!) but I can't really be bothered with all the preparation that goes into it and I prefer to spend the day running riot on beaches or hacking out!! :lol: 

I'd don't see a huge problem with the majority of people who show and I'm sure the dogs do enjoy the social side and attention, it's those, like everything in life, who go over the top and show all the time that I object to! Those who's every weekend is taken up with travelling to and taking part in shows, who's only reason for being is a rossett and who bitch and complain when they don't get what they want!! Those people seem to have lost the reason for doing it and the dog becomes an object rather than a pet. All those that show must have seen the types I mean, it happens in the horse world and dog world, the animal is no longer a breathing creature it's purely something to gain prestige and make the owner feel better about themselves. I've seen people dragging dogs out of rings with pure anger in their faces and it's just rediculas!! I cannot imagine anything being more important than my dogs welfare and enjoyment and surely if you are getting yourself that wound up the animals welfare is way down the list of considerations? 

I went to Crufts once, found it boring and the majority of dogs looked bored, tired and very very hot so it made me very uncomfortable. Found alot of the people showing up themselves, unfriendly and generally giving off an air of not wanting 'the public' around. So I'll save my money for fun charity shows and local events where people actually smile and enjoy their dogs. :thumbup:


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

swarthy said:


> You know full well that did not apply in my case - so why should I need to quote it.
> 
> Why am I 'constantly referring to you' - because it was me who mentioned rehoming a dog who didn't enjoy showing - you asked questions to which I responded - and eventually we arrive at the fact it is 'selfish' - your words, no-one elses


Ur case? I wasnt even referring to u or anything, so i find it rather getting very irritating now whatever im saying u turn it into a "its about me" post.

Its a forum, people discuss and air their opinions. U put down the fact u rehomed ur dog cause it didnt enjoy showing and was left behind and i asked u questions about it cause im in a situation where i leave my dog behind.

Then obviously i put down my views as to what and why i find selfish stating also in the post it had nothing to do with u, just merely commenting on show dogs (what the thread is about), and there u are since then whatever i post u turn it into soemthing against u and i wish u would stop it now, because its getting annoying lol

I stand by what i said, I personally and i only speak for myself I buy my dogs or keep pups because they are going to be my friends, my companions, my four legged soulmates which i love and care for and who stand by me till the last day of their breath (unless there would be a _genuine _reason to rehome) and not something im going to pass on cause they didnt pay off in the ring or didnt enjoy it or didnt quite make it in the show world or arent usefull anymore such as brood bitches and have no purpose for the owner anymore. 
I find it selfish to rehome in those particular cases and thats my view im entitled to put down and will stand by regardless of how much acceptance this has in the show world.
like i said before, u hear too often of this happening and nothing wrong is being seen in it sadly by so many who see their hobby as of greater value to them than their commitment to their dogs they meant to have bought for life.

I also do respect that there a genuine reasosns for rehoming dogs, which none of the above i mentioned are though imo



Bijou said:


> I believe that when any animal is seen as a 'tool of the trade' then for some becomes 'ok' for it to be disposed when it cannot fullfill it's usefulness - you can see this taking place on a larger scale in the Greyhound racing and hunting world where dogs are routinely got rid of when no longer useful
> 
> I breed and show but would never refer to my dogs as 'brood bitches ' or view them soley as show dogs - they are MY dogs and they stay here irrespective of their usefulness ( or not ) to me .
> 
> ...


great post, great to hear that from someone who breeds and shows :thumbup:



swarthy said:


> Sometimes, one wonders why they bother wasting their breath because clearly there are some that are so tunnel visioned they don't read what's written or place their own interpretation on it.
> 
> The dog was rehomed because it was right for HIM not for me - clearly not a concept you are familiar with - because when it comes to my dogs, I will ALWAYS put their own interests before mine.


I dont believe bijou was referring to u at all, just airing her view about rehoming show or brood bitches in general lol


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Mollydoodle said:


> Thank you but I have taken in what i read and my views are still the same. I mite be in a minority on this thread but that doesn't mean my opinion is insulting or wrong ect. it is my view and until i get evidense to change it i will keep it thanks. it is one of the few strong prinsipals i have - that, cruelty and breeding and apart from those im more down the middle on stuff... dont even suggest that i have sed it is cruelty from the last co mment coz i wasn't


I think if you actually knew anything about showing dogs ect and your opinion was based on sheer ignorance then people would be more accepting of it. Other on this thread have said that it's not for them and that's fine. I mean what are your opinions actually based on? I mean at first it was because you don't think dogs want to be cooped up for ages (which they aren't), they'd be much happier running free and that you don't like their haircuts, although alot of breeds are shown very naturally. Then you said once more that the dogs aren't happy being cooped up for hours, being 'ponced' around a ring, being 'puffed and perfumed' and that show dogs are just used to it. Which is untrue. Apparently you worked at crufts which for some reason put you off although you haven't explained why, something i would like to hear for myself? I'm not trying to get at you here but i think you'd be pleasently surprised if you went to a dog show x


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

JSR said:


> Personally I don't really like showing dogs or horses but that said I've shown my own horse a couple of times (and experienced the thrill of him actually winning..which was quiet a shocker considering!!) but I can't really be bothered with all the preparation that goes into it and I prefer to spend the day running riot on beaches or hacking out!! :lol:
> 
> I'd don't see a huge problem with the majority of people who show and I'm sure the dogs do enjoy the social side and attention, it's those, like everything in life, who go over the top and show all the time that I object to! Those who's every weekend is taken up with travelling to and taking part in shows, who's only reason for being is a rossett and who bitch and complain when they don't get what they want!! Those people seem to have lost the reason for doing it and the dog becomes an object rather than a pet. All those that show must have seen the types I mean, it happens in the horse world and dog world, the animal is no longer a breathing creature it's purely something to gain prestige and make the owner feel better about themselves. I've seen people dragging dogs out of rings with pure anger in their faces and it's just rediculas!! I cannot imagine anything being more important than my dogs welfare and enjoyment and surely if you are getting yourself that wound up the animals welfare is way down the list of considerations?
> 
> I went to Crufts once, found it boring and the majority of dogs looked bored, tired and very very hot so it made me very uncomfortable. Found alot of the people showing up themselves, unfriendly and generally giving off an air of not wanting 'the public' around. So I'll save my money for fun charity shows and local events where people actually smile and enjoy their dogs. :thumbup:


I agree with you completely - there are some idiots who show who really need to get their priorities sorted. We went to Crufts this year with Barney and have to say i agree with you there too. The dogs are't allowed to leave until later half 4 i think it was this year because the KC want the public to be able to see them all day. It ends up being a very long day and resulted in me and barney curled up in his benching box :lol:. A lot of people end up quite pissed off to be frank and i think thats directed at the public - if they weren't there ect . Also i noticed a lot of the public seemed a bit oblivious to how to behave .. someone petted barney just before he went in the ring and he slabbered on their hand - they wiped it all over his head . Someone else spat chewing gum out - i mean for that to go in any dogs coat is a nightmare and its just fairly disgusting. I think at crufts theres too much fussing over the dogs - everywhere we went there was people going 'awww' and running over to pet barney, it was driving me insane. Don't think we'll be back at crufts next year - other dog shows aren't like that, so we'll stick to them x


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Natik said:


> Ur case? I wasnt even referring to u or anything, so i find it rather getting very irritating now whatever im saying u turn it into a "its about me" post.
> 
> Its a forum, people discuss and air their opinions. U put down the fact u rehomed ur dog cause it didnt enjoy showing and was left behind and i asked u questions about it cause im in a situation where i leave my dog behind.
> 
> ...


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Don't think we'll be back at crufts next year - other dog shows aren't like that, so we'll stick to them x


This is a BIG problem TBH for a lot of people whose only experience of a dog show happens to be Crufts - as it isn't typical of other dog shows in this country at any level from Companion through to Championship.


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> were did i mention malamutes?


you mentioned show dogs, which my malamutes have always been and always will so long as they enjoy it



Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I think if you actually knew anything about showing dogs ect and your opinion was based on sheer ignorance then people would be more accepting of it. Other on this thread have said that it's not for them and that's fine. I mean what are your opinions actually based on? I mean at first it was because you don't think dogs want to be cooped up for ages (which they aren't), they'd be much happier running free and that you don't like their haircuts, although alot of breeds are shown very naturally. Then you said once more that the dogs aren't happy being cooped up for hours, being 'ponced' around a ring, being 'puffed and perfumed' and that show dogs are just used to it. Which is untrue. Apparently you worked at crufts which for some reason put you off although you haven't explained why, something i would like to hear for myself? I'm not trying to get at you here but i think you'd be pleasently surprised if you went to a dog show x


Thank doG someone put it so well!
Rep :thumbup:


----------



## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

We were/have been interested in the idea of showing Monty. He is now 6 months old.

What sort of things should we be doing? How much does it cost (roughly) to show? Where are the shows at?

Basically any advice for a total novice who is considering showing?

We realise he'll need more training, because right now all he wants to do is play with other dogs, so that would be very disruptive at a show!


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

flufffluff39 said:


> Are you following me lol your not quoting me but?? Its up to you as a breeder to do whatever you want with your dogs but as the one who looked after them I was torn apart by her being sold for 3,000 dollars and having to endure a flight to america. Sorry still gets to me the heartless calous money grabber my ex boss was


Soooo... Going by that, you would say that me importing a dog to England from American and paying top dollar for it in order to widen the gene pool over here and hopefully help the future of the breed is heartless and callous? Yes, he will be about 15 months when he comes over here as i didnt want him in quarentine, and yes he will have to "endure" a flight from America. He will come to a loving home where he will live as a pampered pet with my other dogs, and will join them as part of our little "show team" to get him seen in the UK. I can assure you, with the money we are spending we will undoubtedly be making a significant financial loss on him, and his breeder will not be making much money either as she is currently campaigning him in the US to try to gain his title before he is exported, as well as keeping him for us free of charge and covering all of his veterinary fees and paperwork.

But, yes, i guess by your definition we are both heartless, callous and money grabbing 

Also, I have let a dog go that i bought in because at 5 months his front went and he was unsuitable for showing. He went to a friends daughter where he lives a life of luxury being spoiled rotten. There is always the option of them to return him if they cannot keep him (as we say with any pups we sell also) and we keep in touch with them to see how he is doing. Would it have been kinder to keep him the next 12 years or more being stuck at home while the others are taken out showing?  Or is it not a better life for him being a one person dog where he is being doted on?

I guess thats for each person to decide, but i know i did what was right for my dog and having seen him since he is very happy in his new home. I would do it again with no problems if the situation arose as long as the right home came along.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Montys_Mum said:


> We were/have been interested in the idea of showing Monty. He is now 6 months old.
> 
> What sort of things should we be doing? How much does it cost (roughly) to show? Where are the shows at?
> 
> ...


First thing to do is find a local ringcraft club - phone the kennel club, they should be able to send you a list :thumbup: Then take him along and they will teach you how to stand and move him correctly and show you what happens in a show class.

It is an expensive hobby. For championship shows (where you can gain CCs to make your dog up to a champion and also qualify for Crufts) you will expect to pay about £20-25 for a class for a breed with CCs on offer. About £12-15 without CCs i think. There are shows all over the country, if you go to ourdogs.co.uk and click on "show calendar" they list all of the CH shows on there 

Open shows are often available more locally and theres usually several on each weekend depending on where you live. These cost much less to enter but vary from club to club, usually around £5-10 a class is about right. They are great fun, most of the time all the groups are on the same day as opposed to champ shows that have maybe 2 groups on the same day. There is often a much more relaxed atmosphere and its a lovely day out.

Dont worry about him being disruptive. I let my dogs play with other dogs we know in the ring, i think its good for pups as it relaxes them. My basenji is 18 months and was play-boxing with her sister in the ring at a Champ show at the weekend :lol: As long as you dont let them get wild and they dont upset the other dogs its not a problem, i like to see it myself.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Also, I have let a dog go that i bought in because at 5 months his front went and he was unsuitable for showing. He went to a friends daughter where he lives a life of luxury being spoiled rotten. There is always the option of them to return him if they cannot keep him (as we say with any pups we sell also) and we keep in touch with them to see how he is doing. Would it have been kinder to keep him the next 12 years or more being stuck at home while the others are taken out showing?  Or is it not a better life for him being a one person dog where he is being doted on?
> .


Its not a question of whats kinder for the dog as i could say that my dogs would live a kinder and maybe even happier life at someones farm with acres of free roaming rather then being confined to walks and my garden. 
I go shopping, i leave my dogs behind, i go out for one on one time with hubby i leave my dogs behind, they will life this life for as long as they breathe. Its part of a daily life people live that a dog has to be left for some periods of time. I arrange care for the time being and its a pain soemtimes but i deal with it, as its my responsibilty and my commitment to the dogs i chose for whatever they might have turned out to be, good examples or not.

I believe it is a question of commitment and a question of the purpose the dog has been brought into the home. 
I brought my dogs in to love and them to be family members and my friends first and foremost and then comes showing. 
There are some show people which see dogs as show dogs/breeding dogs only and then maybe pets, and so if they dont pay off as show/breeding dogs they have to go or replacement has to be brought in.

How can we get the point across to new puppy buyers not to treat dogs as commodities and not to pass on like a bit of furniture when its a common and sadly often acceptable occurence in the dog show world, being excused as being the kinder choice but in my opinion not a acceptable reasoning to rehome a dog.

U see stickers on people cars "dogs are for life, not only for christmas" well u could also say "dogs are for life not just for showing or breeding".... :frown:


----------



## Montys_Mum (Jun 4, 2010)

Jess2308 said:


> First thing to do is find a local ringcraft club - phone the kennel club, they should be able to send you a list :thumbup: Then take him along and they will teach you how to stand and move him correctly and show you what happens in a show class.
> 
> It is an expensive hobby. For championship shows (where you can gain CCs to make your dog up to a champion and also qualify for Crufts) you will expect to pay about £20-25 for a class for a breed with CCs on offer. About £12-15 without CCs i think. There are shows all over the country, if you go to ourdogs.co.uk and click on "show calendar" they list all of the CH shows on there
> 
> ...


Thank you for the info  Sounds like popping along with Monty to watch some might be a good idea. We will definitely look up that additional info.
I have always worried about showing being a bit of a 'clicky group' and that you'd have to have people involved you know etc, as we might feel a bit like an outsider. (I used to ride and found horse events could be like that). But I guess we won't know until we try!

Thanks again.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> Thank you but I have taken in what i read and my views are still the same. I mite be in a minority on this thread but that doesn't mean my opinion is insulting or wrong ect. it is my view and until i get evidense to change it i will keep it thanks. it is one of the few strong prinsipals i have - that, cruelty and breeding and apart from those im more down the middle on stuff... dont even suggest that i have sed it is cruelty from the last co mment coz i wasn't


As I said before, you are entitled to have whatever view you want, and to be able to express that view. However, when you do express a view on an open forum, you cannot expect people with differing views not to challenge your views. That's what a discussion on a forum is. Playing the "you're all against me because my view is in the minority" card is just angers people. There are several people on this thread who do not agree with dog showing and have reasoned against it with some good points. Perhaps if you did this, and explained your views instead of moaning that we're all against you, then you might realise no-one is against you just because your view is in the minority.

For example, after reading all the evidence on this thread to the contrary, how can you still have the view that show dogs only like it because they are used to doing nothing else? (I've even posted pics of my show dogs running free on a beach for you!) Now you may have some very good reasons for holding these views - wouldn't it be better to post them so we can continue the discussion properly? Unless you post them all people will think is that you are speaking with no knowledge on the subject and will dismiss your views.

I'd be very interested to hear what you are basing these views on - because unless you have a valid reason for your opinion, I find your opinion that show dogs only like showing because they know no better insulting - and that is because I KNOW that MY show dogs have a full and varied life as well as showing.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Montys_Mum said:


> Thank you for the info  Sounds like popping along with Monty to watch some might be a good idea. We will definitely look up that additional info.
> I have always worried about showing being a bit of a 'clicky group' and that you'd have to have people involved you know etc, as we might feel a bit like an outsider. (I used to ride and found horse events could be like that). But I guess we won't know until we try!
> 
> Thanks again.


We're fairly new to showing and we've found that the more shows we went to the friendlier people got . We also use a forum for our breed and the majority of people who show are on there x


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> Its not a question of whats kinder for the dog as i could say that my dogs would live a kinder and maybe even happier life at someones farm with acres of free roaming rather then being confined to walks and my garden.
> I go shopping, i leave my dogs behind, i go out for one on one time with hubby i leave my dogs behind, they will life this life for as long as they breathe. Its part of a daily life people live that a dog has to be left for some periods of time. I arrange care for the time being and its a pain soemtimes but i deal with it, as its my responsibilty and my commitment to the dogs i chose for whatever they might have turned out to be, good examples or not.
> 
> I believe it is a question of commitment and a question of the purpose the dog has been brought into the home.
> ...


With all due respect, you dont really understand the life that you have when you show seriously. As I understand it from your previous posts you have one dog you dont show (or only very limited) and one cross breed, so I cant think you are that actively involved in the showing world. No offence 

We have bought a caravan in order to spend weekends at the shows rather than to travel each day, that will be our holiday for the year!! The dogs love it! Now, obviously, we only have a limited number of dogs we can take. We have our 4 or 5 "pet" dogs that dont show who we will always make space for, but any others we buy in are bought as show dogs. Yes, they live their lives as pets in the home the same as the others. But we cannot keep collecting dogs as pets otherwise we'd be overrun, the space we have in the house for more dogs has to be for show dogs as that is what we spend a huge amount of oour lives doing! If the dog doesnt make it to the show ring because of a conformational fault it is the best thing for the dog IMO to be moved onto an appropriate home and then we can aim to find a dog that will be of sufficient quality to further our lines and hopefully, the breed as a whole. I would let a dog go to the first person who came along, all the homes my dogs go to are strictly vetted.

Its not a question of commitment. I have a dog who is 10 years old and she is not a show dog, she is very naughty in the ring and reverts to being a puppy :lol: But she is a family pet and will always be with us. We also have a couple of neutered/spayed dogs that were bought as pets and they will remain that even though they havent stepped in the show ring for many years. I am commited to my breeds and I wish to show and breed the best I can to hopefully help make sure that these lovely breeds continue for thousands more years and that the health tests now available enable us to make them healthier for future generations.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Jess2308 said:


> With all due respect, you dont really understand the life that you have when you show seriously. As I understand it from your previous posts you have one dog you dont show (or only very limited) and one cross breed, so I cant think you are that actively involved in the showing world. No offence
> 
> We have bought a caravan in order to spend weekends at the shows rather than to travel each day, that will be our holiday for the year!! The dogs love it! Now, obviously, we only have a limited number of dogs we can take. We have our 4 or 5 "pet" dogs that dont show who we will always make space for, but any others we buy in are bought as show dogs. Yes, they live their lives as pets in the home the same as the others. But we cannot keep collecting dogs as pets otherwise we'd be overrun, the space we have in the house for more dogs has to be for show dogs as that is what we spend a huge amount of oour lives doing! If the dog doesnt make it to the show ring because of a conformational fault it is the best thing for the dog IMO to be moved onto an appropriate home and then we can aim to find a dog that will be of sufficient quality to further our lines and hopefully, the breed as a whole. I would let a dog go to the first person who came along, all the homes my dogs go to are strictly vetted.
> 
> Its not a question of commitment. I have a dog who is 10 years old and she is not a show dog, she is very naughty in the ring and reverts to being a puppy :lol: But she is a family pet and will always be with us. We also have a couple of neutered/spayed dogs that were bought as pets and they will remain that even though they havent stepped in the show ring for many years. I am commited to my breeds and I wish to show and breed the best I can to hopefully help make sure that these lovely breeds continue for thousands more years and that the health tests now available enable us to make them healthier for future generations.


Great post :thumbup:. As much as i would never part with my dogs, i think when you breed and show then you are doing it in an attempt to better the breed so there is a bigger picture involved. You can't better the breed through a dog with big faults. The thing you have to remember is that these dogs don't go to rescue, they don't get given to anyway - alot of the time they go to close family and friends. Also, kind of mirroring what Jess said, you have northern inuits don't you? So you can't yet show them at anything other than companion shows and 'breed' sepcific shows? Not sure, genuinely interested x


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> With all due respect, you dont really understand the life that you have when you show seriously. As I understand it from your previous posts you have one dog you dont show (or only very limited) and one cross breed, so I cant think you are that actively involved in the showing world. No offence
> .


well, u feel the need to get insulting and personal, i dont wish to discuss with u anything any further, so i stop here and wont bother reading any more of ur post.

TBH that attidute is just so typical for some show people :rolleyes5: :nonod:


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> well, u feel the need to get insulting and personal, i dont wish to discuss with u anything any further, so i stop here and wont bother reading any more of ur post.
> 
> TBH that attidute is just so typical for some show people :rolleyes5: :nonod:


Ummm... how on earth is that insulting or personal??  You have said far more insulting stuff on here 

It is a fact im afraid. You are criticising the show world, yet you lack any real personal experience of it. What is so wrong about pointing that out? It maybe explains why your opinion of show people and breeders is so negative and biased.

But if you wish to have a tantrum rather than an adult discussion by all means, continue. Hopefully this thread can get back to more factual discussion :thumbup:


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> , you have northern inuits don't you? So you can't yet show them at anything other than companion shows and 'breed' sepcific shows? Not sure, genuinely interested x


I show actively at breed shows and i spend alot of time around breeders and people and judges who show and judge at KC shows and crufts so i have a pretty good picture of whats going on.
But dont really get whats that to do with my view on rehoming show/breeding dogs lol


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Natik said:


> well, u feel the need to get insulting and personal, i dont wish to discuss with u anything any further, so i stop here and wont bother reading any more of ur post.
> 
> TBH that attidute is just so typical for some show people :rolleyes5: :nonod:


I don't think that it is either personal or insulting of Jess to point out that in order to understand the show world, and understand how that impacts upon decisions someone may make about their pets, you really have to be a part of the show world?


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Ummm... how on earth is that insulting or personal?? You have said far more insulting stuff on here
> 
> It is a fact im afraid. You are criticising the show world, yet you lack any real personal experience of it. What is so wrong about pointing that out? It maybe explains why your opinion of show people and breeders is so negative and biased.
> 
> But if you wish to have a tantrum rather than an adult discussion by all means, continue. Hopefully this thread can get back to more factual discussion :thumbup:


im not critising the show world.... get ur facts right  lol


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I don't think that it is either personal or insulting of Jess to point out that in order to understand the show world, and understand how that impacts upon decisions someone may make about their pets, you really have to be a part of the show world?


ehmm, i am part of it lol


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Natik said:


> I show actively at breed shows and i spend alot of time around breeders and people and judges who show and judge at KC shows and crufts so i have a pretty good picture of whats going on.
> But dont really get whats that to do with my view on rehoming show/breeding dogs lol


I was more just genuinely interested if they have breed specific shows ect lol.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> im not critising the show world.... get ur facts right  lol


You are making judgements on people who rehome their dogs because they do not make it to the show ring. It is commonly done amongst serious show people to keep only the best specimens in the ring and gene pool. Therefore, you are commenting on, and criticising, the show ring.

But, I thought you werent reading any more of my posts :lol:

BTW, I would be very interested to know which breeders and judges are hanging around at NI "breed shows"


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I was more just genuinely interested if they have breed specific shows ect lol.


There is a NI (and Utonagon and any other versions of these dogs) "breed club" that hold shows a few times a year. They are not KC recognised as its not a breed, its a cross breed so they are more like the fun shows we have around the country. Lovely for the enthusiasts of these dogs and im sure it is wonderful for them to be able to compete their dogs, but it sadly does not give an accurate reflection of the KC dog showing world


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> ehmm, i am part of it lol


Sorry, I must be mistaken then. What breeds do you show and at what level?? I maybe mixed you up with another member.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> You are making judgements on people who rehome their dogs because they do not make it to the show ring. It is commonly done amongst serious show people to keep only the best specimens in the ring and gene pool. Therefore, you are commenting on, and criticising, the show ring.
> 
> But, I thought you werent reading any more of my posts :lol:
> 
> BTW, I would be very interested to know which breeders and judges are hanging around at NI "breed shows"


Im airing my opinion, which i believe is my right to do so... i cant change it people take everything personal :confused1:

i said i wasnt reading anymore of ur post NOT postS... mind the S! lol

And i meant KC breeders and judges...

and if i remember right it was u who insulted my dog in the past as well by talking in a derogatery way about her...


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Jess2308 said:


> There is a NI (and Utonagon and any other versions of these dogs) "breed club" that hold shows a few times a year. They are not KC recognised as its not a breed, its a cross breed so they are more like the fun shows we have around the country. Lovely for the enthusiasts of these dogs and im sure it is wonderful for them to be able to compete their dogs, but it sadly does not give an accurate reflection of the KC dog showing world


Yeah that's what confused me lol! I know there is a few different names for them and as far as i know, they are a cross of GSD's, alaskan malamutes and siberian huskies. I wasn't entirely sure if there was a show for them x


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> There is a NI (and Utonagon and any other versions of these dogs) "breed club" that hold shows a few times a year. They are not KC recognised as its not a breed, its a cross breed so they are more like the fun shows we have around the country. Lovely for the enthusiasts of these dogs and im sure it is wonderful for them to be able to compete their dogs, but it sadly does not give an accurate reflection of the KC dog showing world


i think u should google crossbreed and find the definition before u make such statements....


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Natik said:


> Im airing my opinion, which i believe is my right to do so... i cant change it people take everything personal :confused1:
> 
> i said i wasnt reading anymore of ur post NOT postS... mind the S! lol
> 
> ...


You've kind of contradicted yourself there by taking things personally, no one spoke about your girl in a derogatery way and i think people were more interested in who the judges and breeders are that have given you such an insight. x


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> Im airing my opinion, which i believe is my right to do so... i cant change it people take everything personal :confused1:
> 
> i said i wasnt reading anymore of ur post NOT postS... mind the S! lol
> 
> ...


Im pretty sure I would never insult anybody's dog  I have never met you or your dog and cant even remember seeing any pictures of her so cant see how I could have been insulting about her :lol:

And you are the one that are taking things personally as far as I can see. I have not said anything insulting to or about you, you are just flying off the handle when questioned over who actively involved in the world you are criticising you are, to which you have yet to reply...


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Natik said:


> i think u should google crossbreed and find the definition before u make such statements....


are they not a crossbreed then? x


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> You've kind of contradicted yourself there by taking things personally, no one spoke about your girl in a derogatery way and i think people were more interested in who the judges and breeders are that have given you such an insight. x


i dont take things personally of someone i never crossed paths with lol

I just pointed out a fact, thats all....


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> i think u should google crossbreed and find the definition before u make such statements....


A cross breed is, by defination, a dog with recent crosses of different breeds in it. That is what a NI is. Im sorry, I know NI owners dont like them to be referred to as that but it is a fact sadly. They are not a recognised breed and I doubt they will be for a long time.

That is not an insult before you start either. Tis just a fact :thumbup:


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> are they not a crossbreed then? x


they have been bred pure for a while now....


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I think this thread is getting slightly off topic lol  x


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> A cross breed is, by defination, a dog with recent crosses of different breeds in it. That is what a NI is. Im sorry, I know NI owners dont like them to be referred to as that but it is a fact sadly. They are not a recognised breed and I doubt they will be for a long time.
> 
> That is not an insult before you start either. Tis just a fact :thumbup:


what do u know what NI want or dont want 

They are not a recognized breed but it doesnt make them any less of value then those who are recognized


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I think this thread is getting slightly off topic lol  x


i think so too lol


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Natik said:


> what do u know what NI want or dont want
> 
> They are not a recognized breed but it doesnt make them any less of value then those who are recognized


isnt this how all breeds started?


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I think this thread is getting slightly off topic lol  x


Just what I was thinking.

Back on topic!! :thumbup:


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> what do u know what NI want or dont want
> 
> They are not a recognized breed but it doesnt make them any less of value then those who are recognized


Of course not, no one has said that or even implied it. But this thread is about SHOWING DOGS and that is something you cannot do with a NI at KC shows (which this thread is certainly aimed towards). You are taking things way out of context and taking every single post as a criticism. It isnt. I like NIs, my BF wants one :lol: But it is a fact that they are not a KC recognised breed and therefore you cannot show them at anything other than fun shows. And I know what the NI owners who rant all over the internet want, its there for all to see :lol:

But anyway, this is getting more and more towards a NI discussion taking the thread way off topic.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> isnt this how all breeds started?


Hundreds (or Thousands) of years ago yes. And they evolve to a type over many, many generations of selective breeding. But as I have said, this thread is about showing dogs and you can only show KC recognised breeds at KC shows! :thumbup:

Now, I will shut up on this topic of cross breeds :lol:


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> Hundreds (or Thousands) of years ago yes. And they evolve to a type over many, many generations of selective breeding. But as I have said, this thread is about showing dogs and you can only show KC recognised breeds at KC shows! :thumbup:
> 
> Now, I will shut up on this topic of cross breeds :lol:


It's a proven fact that on PF every thread will end up being about crossbreeds 

Think I'm going to put that in my sig :lol:


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Hundreds (or Thousands) of years ago yes. And they evolve to a type over many, many generations of selective breeding. But as I have said, this thread is about showing dogs and you can only show KC recognised breeds at KC shows! :thumbup:
> 
> Now, I will shut up on this topic of cross breeds :lol:


I understand that..... i have said what i feel about it. previously.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

sequeena said:


> It's a proven fact that on PF every thread will end up being about crossbreeds
> 
> Think I'm going to put that in my sig :lol:


:lol:

:thumbup:


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Of course not, no one has said that or even implied it. But this thread is about SHOWING DOGS and that is something you cannot do with a NI at KC shows (which this thread is certainly aimed towards). You are taking things way out of context and taking every single post as a criticism. It isnt. I like NIs, my BF wants one :lol: But it is a fact that they are not a KC recognised breed and therefore you cannot show them at anything other than fun shows. And I know what the NI owners who rant all over the internet want, its there for all to see :lol:
> 
> But anyway, this is getting more and more towards a NI discussion taking the thread way off topic.


i dont get what ur point is.... I dont do fun shows, i do breed shows. Its irrelevant if its a kc show or not.... 
The point of both shows is the same or similar, so whats ur point?


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Im pretty sure I would never insult anybody's dog  I have never met you or your dog and cant even remember seeing any pictures of her so cant see how I could have been insulting about her :lol:





Jess2308 said:


> i highly doubt that if you are a breeder, *you are in any way producing the quality of dogs as those breeders who make producing top quality dogs* their way of life  So I wouldnt expect you to replace your bitch as you are not breeding in that way.


U commented on me in the past which i found was derogatery towards me and my dog  
Just wanted to clear this up


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DKDREAM said:


> isnt this how all breeds started?


so it is ....


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Hundreds (or Thousands) of years ago yes. And they evolve to a type over many, many generations of selective breeding. But as I have said, this thread is about showing dogs and you can only show KC recognised breeds at KC shows! :thumbup:


The title says showing, it doesnt limit the thread to only KC shows ... 
there are breed specific shows for unrecognized breeds and they count as much as KC shows do....


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> i dont get what ur point is.... I dont do fun shows, i do breed shows. Its irrelevant if its a kc show or not....
> The point of both shows is the same or similar, so whats ur point?


The point of the shows that I do is to have judges experienced and qualified to judge against the approved breed standard to assess whether the dogs are good specimens of their breed. Now, I have never attended a "breed show" for a NI, but given that the breed is not recognised and has no official breed standard (i believe one was drawn up by a collection of breeders :confused1: ) then there is very little chance of a very qualified and experienced KC approved judge assessing these dogs. From what i am told (i admit, im not going on personal experience here!) the classes are often just judged by someone who breeds these dogs?

That is all well and good as a fun thing to do with the dogs, but IMO does not give an accurate assessment of the quality of the dogs as the breed has yet to be bred long enough to have any consistency in the lines, therefore the breed standard is irrelevant IMO. And the judges are most likely not experienced at judging and therefore wont necessarily be putting the best dogs first in the classes.

I would much prefer to show a KC reg breed at a KC licenced show under judges I know to have the experience and qualifications to accurately assess the quality of my dogs. I wouldnt ever criticise anyone for showing their NI or any other non-recognised breed, its a great way to push towards the goal of becoming recognised in the future. But it doesnt compare to showing a KC recognised breed in my opinion.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> U commented on me in the past which i found was derogatery towards me and my dog
> Just wanted to clear this up


:lol: that was a thread talking about the very top international champion breeders rehoming dogs, right?

And you think it is insulting that i mentioned that you (or the majority of other breeders!!) arent producing the same quality dogs???

:lol:

Im sorry, but most of us would dream of one day producing those quality dogs, and that is what we work towards with each show and litter! I would never compare myself to those breeders... Clearly you do though


----------



## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

We have only been showing a year, Our ginger boy is a right show off! we have a lovely day out placed or unplaced  and of course we always take the best dog home.
My breed is not even touched (preened) for the ring, nails clipped and that's it! and my boy could happily show off or do what he was bred to do....hence why we have starting Gundog classes 
Not everyone that shows breeds either, some people just enjoy the day out with their canine partner 
I have learnt a lot from showing  

There is good and bad in all walks of lives.
My Labs are not shown and are treated just same, we are even changing our car so they can come with us!! :thumbup:

What a tough life they have!


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> The point of the shows that I do is to have judges experienced and qualified to judge against the approved breed standard to assess whether the dogs are good specimens of their breed. Now, I have never attended a "breed show" for a NI, but given that the breed is not recognised and has no official breed standard (i believe one was drawn up by a collection of breeders :confused1: ) then there is very little chance of a very qualified and experienced KC approved judge assessing these dogs. From what i am told (i admit, im not going on personal experience here!) the classes are often just judged by someone who breeds these dogs?
> 
> That is all well and good as a fun thing to do with the dogs, but IMO does not give an accurate assessment of the quality of the dogs as the breed has yet to be bred long enough to have any consistency in the lines, therefore the breed standard is irrelevant IMO. And the judges are most likely not experienced at judging and therefore wont necessarily be putting the best dogs first in the classes.
> 
> I would much prefer to show a KC reg breed at a KC licenced show under judges I know to have the experience and qualifications to accurately assess the quality of my dogs. I wouldnt ever criticise anyone for showing their NI or any other non-recognised breed, its a great way to push towards the goal of becoming recognised in the future. But it doesnt compare to showing a KC recognised breed in my opinion.


u are totally wrong. People keep saying on those threads not to make comments they have no experience with and here u are, commenting on something u have never been to not once in ur life.

The judges judging are all experienced judges, judges with years and years of experience and also who are or were approved qualified KC judges for a very long time.

The breed has a breed standard, just like other breeds have and breeders aim towards the standard and dogs are being judged going by the breed standard.

Why would the breed standard be irrelevant, that doesnt make sense. All breeds had a breed standard people were breeding towards, hence why we have the breeds now :confused1:

so yes, it is compareable to kc shows, its maybe not to the extent and not as big as some of the KC shows are, but the goal of it is the same ....


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> :lol: that was a thread talking about the very top international champion breeders rehoming dogs, right?
> 
> And you think it is insulting that i mentioned that you (or the majority of other breeders!!) arent producing the same quality dogs???
> 
> ...


i didnt compare myself to anyone, u compared me to someone  
and yes, i found it insuting u commenting on me personally like that...


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> u are totally wrong. People keep saying on those threads not to make comments they have no experience with and here u are, commenting on something u have never been to not once in ur life.
> 
> The judges judging are all experienced judges, judges with years and years of experience and also who are or were approved qualified KC judges for a very long time.
> 
> ...


If you had read my post you will see that I said the standard is irrelavant because the "breed" has not been bred for enough generations for there to be any consistency in type. It takes a long time to create a breed, NI's are just in their infancy and need very conscientious breeders to breed carefully and selectively if they will every become a breed. It is something I think can and will happen, but at the moment it is a long way off.

I am surprised that there were highly experienced judges at these shows, i would be very interested to know who they were, can you please PM me their names? Thats was not what I was told at all 

I think there is a big difference posting an opinion acknowledging that I have no personal experience of it myself is a bit different to posting things up as fact and not mentioning that you have no experience of it 

But anyway, we will have to agree to disagree on this as it is dragging the entire thread down and we are going around in circles


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> i didnt compare myself to anyone, u compared me to someone
> and yes, i found it insuting u commenting on me personally like that...


Well then I am sorry you took it personally, it clearly wasnt meant that way and I have explained how it was meant as you obviously didnt understand at the time. If you continue to take it personally there is nothing I can do about it and you will just have to get over it :thumbup:


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> If you had read my post you will see that I said the standard is irrelavant because the "breed" has not been bred for enough generations for there to be any consistency in type. It takes a long time to create a breed, NI's are just in their infancy and need very conscientious breeders to breed carefully and selectively if they will every become a breed. It is something I think can and will happen, but at the moment it is a long way off.
> 
> I am surprised that there were highly experienced judges at these shows, i would be very interested to know who they were, can you please PM me their names? Thats was not what I was told at all
> 
> ...


i still dont see how the breed standard is irrelevant... can be said for other breeds too where they differ from showing to working lines lol its almost like 2 different breeds with the same breed standard...

Maybe u should come to one of the shows and then comment, just like i wouldnt comment on kc shows if i wouldnt have attendet any personally myself....

Tbh i dont keep a list of the names but do some research and find out for urself if ur really interested .... but this time find a more reliable source maybe lol or even better.... just go to a show


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> i still dont see how the breed standard is irrelevant... can be said for other breeds too where they differ from showing to working lines lol its almost like 2 different breeds with the same breed standard...
> 
> Maybe u should come to one of the shows and then comment, just like i wouldnt comment on kc shows if i wouldnt have been there personally....
> 
> Tbh i dont keep a list of the names but do some research and find out for urself if ur really interested .... but this time find a more reliable source maybe lol or even better.... just go to a show


Seriously, just let it go. Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree on this. Im quite happy to let the subject lie now, theres no more to be said on it.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Seriously, just let it go. Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree on this. Im quite happy to let the subject lie now, theres no more to be said on it.


im holding on to nothing ... just commenting on ur post :lol: its a forum u know


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> im holding on to nothing ... just commenting on ur post :lol: its a forum u know


My post was to agree to disagree :thumbup:


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> My post was to agree to disagree :thumbup:


well, u cant just make a statement regarding my breed and then cut off any further explanatory or challenging comments on it by saying agree to diagree... but never mind...


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> well, u cant just make a statement regarding my breed and then cut off any further explanatory or challenging comments on it by saying agree to diagree... but never mind...


I have explained everything I said quite clearly if you wish to re-read my posts. You declined to explain a lot of the things you said when questioned, I have answered all of your questions, despite it meaning it had to repeat myself  I dont know why you insist on carrying on and on and on, it is getting very childish. I will not reply to anymore of your posts on this subject.


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

oi oi, move your argument to your own threads please, dont be spoiling mine!



Verbatim said:


> Please remember that this a discussion and everyone is entitled to their opinion whether you agree with it or not


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Verbatim said:


> oi oi, move your argument to your own threads please, dont be spoiling mine!


That is what I have been trying to do for the last couple of pages :thumbup: Sorry.


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

What you have to remember is showing _isn't_ just a hobby for some people.

In countries like the US and across Europe there are professional handlers who make a living this way

i see nothing wrong with sending your dog off abroad to gain more titles, if you think this way then it must be wrong to import dogs and expand the gene pool or help increase rare/vulnerable breeds

I have imported before and am really hoping to import a mally boy for a complete new bloodline, work and show, how terrible am I?


----------



## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

I think it is a bit strange the way people who don't show often assume that those who do show don't do anything else with their dogs. Most of the show dogs I know have an incredibly diverse life, full of new experiences, sights, sounds and smells all of which stimulate the interest of the dogs and keep them alert and youthful.
In our breed, most of those who show also work their dogs in harness and treat them as pampered pets. Ours also do a lot of "Hug-A-Husky" work for welfare and absolutely love it! If they didn't, we wouldn't put them through it.

Mick


----------



## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> The point of the shows that I do is to have judges experienced and qualified to judge against the approved breed standard to assess whether the dogs are good specimens of their breed. Now, I have never attended a "breed show" for a NI, but given that the breed is not recognised and has no official breed standard (i believe one was drawn up by a collection of breeders :confused1: ) then there is very little chance of a very qualified and experienced KC approved judge assessing these dogs. From what i am told (i admit, im not going on personal experience here!) the classes are often just judged by someone who breeds these dogs?
> 
> That is all well and good as a fun thing to do with the dogs, but IMO does not give an accurate assessment of the quality of the dogs as the breed has yet to be bred long enough to have any consistency in the lines, therefore the breed standard is irrelevant IMO. And the judges are most likely not experienced at judging and therefore wont necessarily be putting the best dogs first in the classes.
> 
> I would much prefer to show a KC reg breed at a KC licenced show under judges I know to have the experience and qualifications to accurately assess the quality of my dogs. I wouldnt ever criticise anyone for showing their NI or any other non-recognised breed, its a great way to push towards the goal of becoming recognised in the future. But it doesnt compare to showing a KC recognised breed in my opinion.


I'm sorry you and Natik have both raised fair and valid points, but you seem to think your "type" of showing is superior? Yes hopefully one day these dogs will be a recognised breed, starting out like your KC breeds once did. But Breed standard i find is ruining dog breeds as we know it. Shoot me down for this I dont really care this is my opinion too many so called Quality breeders are trying so hard to get this Breed standard they are mutalating beautiful breeds in the process. Not necissarily pointing a finger at you, as you explain you believe in working towards producing qulaity dogs. But one day, dogs such as the NI, and my Patterdale terriers and the Alaskan Klee Klai will be in the KC rings with your breeds what will you say then?

Just wondering.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> I'm sorry you and Natik have both raised fair and valid points, but you seem to think your "type" of showing is superior? Yes hopefully one day these dogs will be a recognised breed, starting out like your KC breeds once did. But Breed standard i find is ruining dog breeds as we know it. Shoot me down for this I dont really care this is my opinion too many so called Quality breeders are trying so hard to get this Breed standard they are mutalating beautiful breeds in the process. Not necissarily pointing a finger at you, as you explain you believe in working towards producing qulaity dogs. But one day, dogs such as the NI, and my Patterdale terriers and the Alaskan Klee Klai will be in the KC rings with your breeds what will you say then?
> 
> Just wondering.


I will welcome them to the KC showring when the breeders have achieved KC status by their careful, commited breeding :thumbup: Klee Kais are already recognised in many other countries so they are a step ahead of the other breeds you mention 

Its not a question of being "Superior", KC shows are the only recognised shows that can achieve any kind of award for a dog, be it a champion title, junior warrant, show certificate of merit. Therefore, they bring in the best dogs from around the country (and abroad) so you are competing against the very top dogs in the country for your class/breed/group/best in show win. The same just cant be said for unlicenced shows. Dont get me wrong, I support my local clubs companion and fun shows regularly, I take the oldies along and any pups for socialising and we have a lovely day out but my aim is always the Open/Champ shows. That doesnt mean everyone else should be aiming for those, but then it also means that those who criticise the people competing seriously at that level should at least know what they are talking about and they cant if they are not involved in that world themselves IMO.

P.S. There are new breeds given Champ show classes and CC status most years so it is not a new thing to have different breeds appearing at the shows!


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Patterdale_lover said:


> I'm sorry you and Natik have both raised fair and valid points, but you seem to think your "type" of showing is superior? Yes hopefully one day these dogs will be a recognised breed, starting out like your KC breeds once did. But Breed standard i find is ruining dog breeds as we know it.


Haven't you just contradicted yourself somewhat?

You HOPE that your breed will one day be recognised, but it is the breed standard that ruins breeds? 

Many breed standards haven't, until very recently changed in many many years - so HOW exactly can the breed standard ruin a dog?

Breed standards are open to interpretation - and within that you will have "types" who all meet that breed standard yet can be physically very different.

================================

Breed standards don't ruin a breed, interpretation of it might - if you have shows for a breed where the judges are judging against that breed standard -recognised or not, and a 'type' comes into fashion, people will breed to that type.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I have to say i don't believe that dog shows have the ''best'' dogs from all over the country/world etc

I personally dislike the way some show dogs look. I much much prefer a working type of many breeds or even a 'pet' type.........

Who the hell gave power to the ''breed clubs'' so that they decide what type to breed? They have certainly f*cked up a lot of breeds!!

Why does a Lab (for instance) HAVE to conform to the damned breed clubs rules!! Who the hell said they were right?? Surely in the Lab the WORKING type is the best? After all they orignated to be a working dog? So why have most show types got broader, heavier, fatter, shorter legged?? etc

Same as an ESS or Cocker, they originated to be a working dog, yet the BREED CLUBS have decided to way over do the hair, ''type'' etc etc? 

Yep, while i have no problem people showing dogs i would never ever do it! Give me a working type breed anyday! Preferably as natural as possible, with no real changes to it!


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Why does a Lab (for instance) HAVE to conform to the damned breed clubs rules!! Who the hell said they were right?? Surely in the Lab the WORKING type is the best? After all they orignated to be a working dog? So why have most show types got broader, heavier, fatter, shorter legged?? etc


Um - the lab breed standard was written predominantly by WORKING people - it has not changed apart from some very minor tweaks in around 40 years and clearly states

*General Appearance*
Strongly built, short-coupled, very active; broad in skull; broad and deep through chest and ribs; broad and strong over loins and hindquarters.

*Body*
_Chest of good width and depth, *with well sprung barrel ribs* _

Do I need to define what a barrel is? it isn't a whippet type animal that's for sure.

The height hasn't changed during the same period of existence of the most recent breed standard, as hasn't the need for the dog to be well balanced.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

swarthy said:


> Um - the lab breed standard was written predominantly by WORKING people - it has not changed apart from some very minor tweaks in around 40 years and clearly states
> 
> *General Appearance*
> Strongly built, short-coupled, very active; broad in skull; broad and deep through chest and ribs; broad and strong over loins and hindquarters.
> ...


I am well aware of the standard thanks.

So tell me then:

Why do proper working Labs look so much different to show type?

For instance the BOB at crufts?? Compared to a top feild worker??


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> I have to say i don't believe that dog shows have the ''best'' dogs from all over the country/world etc
> 
> I personally dislike the way some show dogs look. I much much prefer a working type of many breeds or even a 'pet' type.........
> 
> ...


So what about my breeds . Newfoundlands and Alaskan Malamutes - true working dogs. My dogs are completely natural, can do the job they were bred for and do it well yet they are good examples of the breed. That's why i love my breeds so much - the majority of the time the 'best' dogs from all over the world are in the ring and working. & no matter what anyone says the best place to buy either a newfoundland or a malamute is from show breeders because they will be able to do the job they were bred for and they will be good healthy examples of the breed. No other breeders in these breeds can say that - the dogs speak for themselves. x


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I am well aware of the standard thanks.
> 
> So tell me then:
> 
> ...


The BOB at Crufts this year does work


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> So what about my breeds . Newfoundlands and Alaskan Malamutes - true working dogs. My dogs are completely natural, can do the job they were bred for and do it well yet they are good examples of the breed. That's why i love my breeds so much - the majority of the time the 'best' dogs from all over the world are in the ring and working. & no matter what anyone says the best place to buy either a newfoundland or a malamute is from show breeders because they will be able to do the job they were bred for and they will be good healthy examples of the breed. No other breeders in these breeds can say that - the dogs speak for themselves. x


Thats why i said ''some'' i like natural breeds. Ones that have barely changed and can still do the job they were bred for. I actually love all dogs but if we talking on showing/breeding then the more natural the better.

I am talking about the breeds that have been changed by breed clubs because they think it looks better! That does not include 'your' breeds!


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> The BOB at Crufts this year does work


The chocolate one?? No way, not a top champion in the field for sure.

It still doesn't explain why there is such a difference and why show people think the ''standard'' is right when in actual fact the working type should be the ''right'' one.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> So what about my breeds . Newfoundlands and Alaskan Malamutes - true working dogs. My dogs are completely natural, can do the job they were bred for and do it well yet they are good examples of the breed. That's why i love my breeds so much - the majority of the time the 'best' dogs from all over the world are in the ring and working. & no matter what anyone says the best place to buy either a newfoundland or a malamute is from show breeders because they will be able to do the job they were bred for and they will be good healthy examples of the breed. No other breeders in these breeds can say that - the dogs speak for themselves. x


And, as far as im aware there arent many basenjis over here luring gazelle so would-be-owners have no choice on going for the show ones :lol:

Also, to add regarding the labs. My family have owned, bred and worked labs for several generations. The fact is that working labs as well as show labs have changed, it is not ALL the show side. Working labs from 50 years ago were considerably more substantial than they are now and had the wider heads that are common amongst the show labs that seems to have died out in the working lines. With our labs we aim to breed what my family bred many years ago, a nice dog with ability to work but temperment to be a wonderful, easy going family pet as well. My pups have gone on to show, pet AND working homes. Not all lab breeders who show like to breed in exaggeration, infact, it seems to be a stereotype more than a reality that all labs are fat and short legged, just look what is in the ring these days. Working folk seem to forget that their breeders go through "fads" as well, which is why i will never breed what is popular, just what I like as close to my interpretation of the breed standard :thumbup:


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> The chocolate one?? No way, not a top champion in the field for sure.
> 
> It still doesn't explain why there is such a difference and why show people think the ''standard'' is right when in actual fact the working type should be the ''right'' one.


Im not ssure if he has his field title yet, but he is not far off.


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> The chocolate one?? No way, not a top champion in the field for sure.
> 
> It still doesn't explain why there is such a difference and why show people think the ''standard'' is right when in actual fact the working type should be the ''right'' one.


No he isnt a field trial CH but the lady that bred and shows him works all her dogs, believe me the show type can and do work in exactly the same way as the field trial dogs do,
I had a Lab off the said lady that won at Crufts and she was trained to the gun, could clear a 5 bar gate etc etc and was heavily built.


----------



## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> I have to say i don't believe that dog shows have the ''best'' dogs from all over the country/world etc
> 
> I personally dislike the way some show dogs look. I much much prefer a working type of many breeds or even a 'pet' type.........
> 
> ...


Well said Rep coming your way

I can tell ya now my dad trains top labradors and is good good friends with many of the best working lab trainers is the country and a good working lab is lean fit, small and slight agile and streamline. Not big beefy short legged and barrel like, like the show type is. Not they i have anything agaisnt show types.

This one of our working labs bonnie

Compared to a show lab

http://images01.olx.in/ui/2/42/44/16253844_1.jpg
http://images01.olx.in/ui/1/81/08/11327308_1.jpg

These would be a bit too heavy going to work and not as agile and quick as the working type

The same with the ESS ours are small and lithe were as the show are long legged and tall.
Cockers have extravagant hair cuts and longer ears with shorter legs. Were as our working cockers have longer legs shorter ears and shorter fur.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Thats why i said ''some'' i like natural breeds. Ones that have barely changed and can still do the job they were bred for. I actually love all dogs but if we talking on showing/breeding then the more natural the better.
> 
> I am talking about the breeds that have been changed by breed clubs because they think it looks better! That does not include 'your' breeds!


Oh okay sorry i didn't see the word some lol my bad. & i say 'my' breeds as such because that's the breeds i'm involved in - just so you knew what my opinions were based on. Breeds aren't ruined by breed standards - they are ruined by the misinterpretation of them. & it does not include alot of breeds - breeds who have been mutilated in my eyes, are a minority. The biggest issues in this country concerning dog breeding are pet breeders, puppy farmers ect - not even the worst show breeders come before them. x


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Well said Rep coming your way
> 
> I can tell ya now my dad trains top labradors and is good good friends with many of the best working lab trainers is the country and a good working lab is lean fit, small and slight agile and streamline. Not big beefy short legged and barrel like, like the show type is. Not they i have anything agaisnt show types.
> 
> ...


Is that a fact from having seen show bred labs in the field or just your assumption?

Because I have seen many show bred labs working and they are as good (and sometimes better!!) than the working bred labs. Not to mention, in recent years there have been several full champions made up in the breed as well, so the stereotype of all top show labs being unable to work does really hold up if you look at the statistics. I certainly know my own dogs are quick, agile and could jump as high as you'd want. Infact, I just posted some pics of one of my labs clearing a barbed wire fence over 4ft high :thumbup:

BTW, your dog certainly looks like it has a bit of show breeding in there maybe lol. It has a lot of bone and from what i can see in the pic, pretty substantial body and head. Certainly not the very fine working labs that seem popular these days. Yours is just higher on the leg, which is something i like in my own dogs 

ETA: It is ridiculous to judge a dogs working ability by its clip lol!!! And its actually a misconception about show cockers having shorter legs, the longer coat just gives that illusion


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Well said Rep coming your way
> 
> I can tell ya now my dad trains top labradors and is good good friends with many of the best working lab trainers is the country and a good working lab is lean fit, small and slight agile and streamline. Not big beefy short legged and barrel like, like the show type is. Not they i have anything agaisnt show types.
> 
> ...


Thats the Labs i like :thumbup: there are a few over there that are working. Gorgeous!

I have an ESS (rescue) and he is a proper working type, small, lithe, short coated none of this fancy coat extension :lol:

I do like the 'show' type dogs but they are not for me. I do have a 'best friend' on my walks that is a chunky show type Lab though, he gives great cuddles!


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Compared to a show lab
> 
> http://images01.olx.in/ui/2/42/44/16253844_1.jpg
> http://images01.olx.in/ui/1/81/08/11327308_1.jpg


Those pictures look so similar to the 2 labs i know who do extremely well in the show ring but last time i seen them the one was so round he just managed to walk a few metres and lift his leg to pee lol they are the most relaxed and gentle dogs i came across though ....

I do love the working type dogs, hence i would never go for a show gsd and would always stick to the working type


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> And, as far as im aware there arent many basenjis over here luring gazelle so would-be-owners have no choice on going for the show ones :lol:


Now that i'd pay to see! 

At the end of the day people can keep bitching about breeds they consider unhealthy etc and switch to an unaltered breed e.g. husky, malamute, newfoundland, tibetan mastiff, .. there's a fair few out there.!

OR we can start working together with the KC to help improve the breeds. Most people breed and show for the love of the breed and not money.

This way we can slowly improve the standard of dogs in the showring x


----------



## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Is that a fact from having seen show bred labs in the field or just your assumption?
> 
> Because I have seen many show bred labs working and they are as good (and sometimes better!!) than the working bred labs. Not to mention, in recent years there have been several full champions made up in the breed as well, so the stereotype of all top show labs being unable to work does really hold up if you look at the statistics. I certainly know my own dogs are quick, agile and could jump as high as you'd want. Infact, I just posted some pics of one of my labs clearing a barbed wire fence over 4ft high :thumbup:
> 
> ...


Haha you can check her pedigree if you like you'll find no show labs in there. Close up shots maybe making you feel that way. Bonnie is very slight stream line head and narrow. Muscular yes but when working in the field all day and intense training what do you expect :thumbup:And no offense but i'll have you know Bonnie is of very high working standard. 

I never said show labs couldn't work, I meant that GENERALLY working labs are better than show labs hense why they are the working type  
I think for any medium to large size dog if they really wanted to could jumpe a 4ft fence? :confused1: or is that just me. I also never said they weren't quick or agile, but are generally slower than the workers? GENERALLY!  I have nothing against show labs or show ESS or show cockers. I however prefer working type dogs and always will. I would never ever say show dogs aren't stunning though, truly remarkable animals but different in remarkability to that of a worker.
Well yes the clip does matter, as the bracken and cover the dog goes into would get caught in its coat so is better to have a shorter coat so their fur isn't being torn out.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Here we go, my 100% show bred lab who has done well in the ring. Several of his pups are also successful workers 

Not the best pics, sorry.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> I am well aware of the standard thanks.
> 
> So tell me then:
> 
> ...


Because many (not all by any means) working bred labs no longer meet the breed standard - fact!

They have been bred to be leaner and faster - whereas in fact the labrador's job required stamina rather than speed

The BOB at Crufts you mention is from a kennel that is actively involved on both sides of the fence - working and show and highly respected in the labrador world.

Those who watched on TV - should remember that the camera does add "fictitious pounds" and as I have found through my own experience, and with own predominantly show bred bitch pup - perception of being fat is very quickly eliminated when you put your hands on, and likewise for the large majority of show labs in the ring today.

I show, but my dogs actually tend to sit more inbetween the working and show physique - my primary show girl is from a mother who was worked and shown, and sadly one ticket off a full champion - her father - a full champion (my girls grandfather) along with a few other dogs have won titles in both field and show.

Four of my dogs have recently started working with a gundog trainer - and interestingly, he believes they are the perfect weight, physique and temperaments to give it a go, yet it doesn't stop them being placed, and often placed well, in the showring.

Many of us in a breed as numerically large as ours will be lucky to get even a sniff of a ticket in the showring - likewise, we are unlikely ever to breed, or work up a dog to become a Ft Ch - that doesn't mean to say we can't enjoy both hobbies with dogs that are happy to be in the ring one day and to dive into deep water or over a four foot fence the next.


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> Here we go, my 100% show bred lab who has done well in the ring. Several of his pups are also successful workers
> 
> Not the best pics, sorry.


Is that at the sky blue connection? the show?


----------



## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Here we go, my 100% show bred lab who has done well in the ring. Several of his pups are also successful workers
> 
> Not the best pics, sorry.


Gorgeous dogs  really honestly. 

However peoples opinions differ, your prefer your show labs which i am not doubting have multiple capabilities. But the workers are called the working type for a reason and so are the show type. Yes, there may be show labs working in the field, however i don't think and this is a generalisation not catering to each individual you wouldn't get any of the top working lab trainers buying or breeding a show lab to work. They look for lithe, small, agile, streamline dogs.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Haha you can check her pedigree if you like you'll find no show labs in there. Close up shots maybe making you feel that way. Bonnie is very slight stream line head and narrow. Muscular yes but when working in the field all day and intense training what do you expect :thumbup:*And no offense but i'll have you know Bonnie is of very high working standard.*
> 
> I never said show labs couldn't work, I meant that GENERALLY working labs are better than show labs hense why they are the working type
> I think for any medium to large size dog if they really wanted to could jumpe a 4ft fence? :confused1: or is that just me. I also never said they weren't quick or agile, but are generally slower than the workers? GENERALLY!  I have nothing against show labs or show ESS or show cockers. I however prefer working type dogs and always will. I would never ever say show dogs aren't stunning though, truly remarkable animals but different in remarkability to that of a worker.
> Well yes the clip does matter, as the bracken and cover the dog goes into would get caught in its coat so is better to have a shorter coat so their fur isn't being torn out.


I never said she wasnt :confused1: or are you being so stuck up you assume the mere suggestion that she might have show lines in there mean that she would not be a high quality worker??? 

I have seen many times on here people saying that show labs couldnt jump or arent fit enough etc etc, was just proving a point 

You are quite welcome to prefer whatever type you like, but *do not* insult other peoples dogs as you have done.

And you are sadly very poorly educated about clips im afraid. The clips were developed to protect the dogs working in the field, that has come directly from the working lines NOT the show lines and the clips in the UK ring are supposed to stick as close to how they were done for working as possible. I would have assumed if you work cockers you would know that :lol:


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Gorgeous dogs  really honestly.
> 
> However peoples opinions differ, your prefer your show labs which i am not doubting have multiple capabilities. But the workers are called the working type for a reason and so are the show type. Yes, there may be show labs working in the field, however i don't think and this is a generalisation not catering to each individual you wouldn't get any of the top working lab trainers buying or breeding a show lab to work. They look for lithe, small, agile, streamline dogs.


There is actually only one breed and should be types of it, the divide has come from breeders on both sides (working and showing) breeding exaggeration into their dogs. It is not all the fault of the show people as you seem to think. Which is why i said in my post above, my dogs are bred to be as close to what my family bred many years ago. They are the true dual purpose labs IMO :thumbup:

I personally do not like the look of the very lean working labs at all, that is not what a lab is IMO, they are far too fine and whippet-ey. As posted by swarthy, they are supposed to have stamina, not speed. But, each to their own and if other people like them and want to breed them that way thats their decision.


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Gorgeous dogs  really honestly.
> 
> However peoples opinions differ, your prefer your show labs which i am not doubting have multiple capabilities. But the workers are called the working type for a reason and so are the show type. Yes, there may be show labs working in the field, however i don't think and this is a generalisation not catering to each individual you wouldn't get any of the top working lab trainers buying or breeding a show lab to work. They look for lithe, small, agile, streamline dogs.


When it comes down to Labs... I dont personally care whether they work show or whatever, to me you cant beat a LAB! end of


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Kinjilabs said:


> Is that at the sky blue connection? the show?


You beat me to it :lol:



Patterdale_lover said:


> Haha you can check her pedigree if you like you'll find no show labs in there. Close up
> shots maybe making you feel that way.


She will be one of VERY few labradors then that doesn't have breeding from both sides - and yes, I have a database of over 100,000 labradors details and pedigrees going back to the late 1870's.

Often, the influences of one type or another skip more than a few generations - my eldest girl, despite having a very strong working background, is quite stocky, her daughters on the other hand, despite two show bred sires are considerably leaner and faster than her.

Eldest daughter 









Youngest daughter - getting decent pictures of this one is nigh on impossible as she moves too darn fast for the camera - and can clear a four foot wall without a run up 










Grand-daughter 









WHOLLY show bred dog with a SH Ch sire









My most successful show girl


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Starlite said:


> Now that i'd pay to see!
> 
> At the end of the day people can keep bitching about breeds they consider unhealthy etc and switch to an unaltered breed e.g. husky, malamute, newfoundland, tibetan mastiff, .. there's a fair few out there.!
> 
> ...


Exactly  !! Well said :thumbup: x


----------



## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

why is everyone so defensive about show dogs? 
I merely stated my opinion :confused1: I prefer working dogs, i have not intentionally slated any dog show or working and have said throughout i have no issue with the show dog and think they are remarkable in their own way. I however, prefer working dogs, prefer the working look. :confused1: I have never said that show dogs can't work, nor have i said they don't. But i think you'll find working labs are more common in the working world?

Everyone is so quick to have a go when someone critisizes the show dogs, but its okay to point out negatives or talk about working dogs as though they aren't as great or multi tasking? 
I never said for speed, they like agile dogs who can cover ground easily and quickly and bring game back in tact? :confused1: And no offense but it is a pain in the ass to pull out bits of twigs long fur so I<<<< ME not everyone prefers shorter coats.

Leaving this thread now as English exam bright and early :thumbup:

All dogs are gorgeous i just prefer working types. I do enjoy shows and i do enjoy watching dogs competeting. However, i just prefer the working look, as you prefer the show look. No problems.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> why is everyone so defensive about show dogs?
> I merely stated my opinion :confused1: I prefer working dogs, i have not intentionally slated any dog show or working and have said throughout i have no issue with the show dog and think they are remarkable in their own way. I however, prefer working dogs, prefer the working look. :confused1: I have never said that show dogs can't work, nor have i said they don't. But i think you'll find working labs are more common in the working world?
> 
> Everyone is so quick to have a go when someone critisizes the show dogs, but its okay to point out negatives or talk about working dogs as though they aren't as great or multi tasking?
> ...


Maybe it is not what you're saying but how you're saying.. Tact is lacking  The mere suggestion that your bitch has show lines (i would be interested to know her pedigree as she is the most show built working bred lab i've seen in a long time lol) and you got very upset about it and started being rather derogatory towards our show bred labs!!

There may be more working dogs in the field these days, but they all descend from the same dogs whether they are show or working bred anyway :lol:

And I would say its more important that the dogs skin and ears are protected than saving time picking twigs out of the coat :confused1: But each to their own!

Good luck in the exam :thumbup:


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Patterdale_lover said:


> why is everyone so defensive about show dogs?
> I merely stated my opinion :confused1: I prefer working dogs, i have not intentionally slated any dog show or working and have said throughout i have no issue with the show dog and think they are remarkable in their own way. s.


I don't think anyone was picking out you per se - I responded to the fact you said you could guarantee there was no show dogs in a pedigree, and I responded by saying that is highly unlikely - they may be far back, but they will be in there, somewhere.

I don't think anyone has a problem with someone preferring a working bred dog - but some show breeds, particularly my own, come in from a lot of stick from people who seem to believe it is the show people that have lost their way, when in fact, as Jess points out, this can happen on both sides - and many working labs have been bred physically away from the breed standard because their owners need something leaner and faster.

The fact remains, with labs, is that unless it is visibly fat (as in wobbling) - you really cannot tell whether a lab is carrying excess weight or not unless you go 'hands on'.

You would not believe in Labs, what difference a full coat can make to the overall outline - out of coat my boy looks a bit like a waif - and according to many, is far too thin - yet in full coat you wouldn't say that - despite his weight remaining static.

Good luck with the exam.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Patterdale_lover said:


> You have a fair an valid point yes that statement was a bit bold!  im sure in the background there is show in there, but none i dont think recently


All joking aside, I would be interested in seeing the pedigree (and with my database would be able to tell you whether she does go back to any show lines - she will undoubtedly go back to the very famous dual purpose lines, as I have yet to find a dog, show, working or pet bred that doesn't


----------



## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

swarthy said:


> All joking aside, I would be interested in seeing the pedigree (and with my database would be able to tell you whether she does go back to any show lines - she will undoubtedly go back to the very famous dual purpose lines, as I have yet to find a dog, show, working or pet bred that doesn't


I'm going to back down now. I do not wish to argue i do not wish to cause upset. Just sharing my opinion. I do not wish to share my dogs information
You both provide valid points. Obviously very experienced and knowledgeable. But i will not be posting again on this thread :thumbup:

Thanks for wishing me luck
And good luck to you in all your shows and working if your dogs take part in both!


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Thats fair enough, now get some sleep  I need to as well, work in the morning!!


----------



## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Thats fair enough, now get some sleep  I need to as well, work in the morning!!


Haha! Sorry Good night


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Im not ssure if he has his field title yet, but he is not far off.


I think you'll find he is a LONG way off getting a field title  and honestly can't imagine he ever would. He may get his SWGC to make him up to a CH, but that award is the most basic of basic gundog tests to show that a dog is steady to gun shot and game, can retrieve and will enter water. In fact, even a basic puppy working test is usually more testing. Not wanting to detract from any potential CH title he may get, but it has to be put into perspective. There is absolutely no comparison between a working lab and a show lab in the working field.



> believe me the show type can and do work in exactly the same way as the field trial dogs do,


I'm sorry, but they don't. I'm not saying a show lab can't work - there are some on my shoot, but they do have limitations. On a small shoot, then they can do a decent job, but they are simply not able to keep up with the more demanding work required on many modern shoots. I would also add that 'working' on a shoot doesn't always add up to a good dog  - a dog can beat, be a peg dog, pick up a couple of birds and people say it 'works'. Technically it does, but it won't be doing the work of a true working lab.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Is that a fact from having seen show bred labs in the field or just your assumption?


It's a fact - see post above - and yes, I've had to send my working labs into areas and across high bank ditches that the show labs working couldn't manage.



> Not to mention, in recent years there have been several full champions made up in the breed as well,


I think you're confusing a CH which is achieved by a dog gaining it's Show Gundog Working Certificate with Trial awards. There is a huge difference between the two . The SGWC only covers the very basics - to approx the level of a puppy working test (except that it's on game). I often hear show folk mentioning this, but it's a bit like comparing a KCGC puppy test with the KCGC Gold Award


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Tact is lacking The mere suggestion that your bitch has show lines (i would be interested to know her pedigree as she is the most show built working bred lab i've seen in a long time lol)


Another misconception - there are many working bred labs that are actually quite heavy in build, and actually, in reality, not that many are spindly whippets either. Working labs are bred mainly for their abilities, not for their looks - looks are secondary, which leads to quite a variety in looks. What is very noticable, is that they carry much less weight than their show counterparts (and pet counterparts too) - and I'm talking dogs that are actually worked rather than working or show by breeding.

I'd also dispute that speed isn't necessary. Yes, stamina is important, but so is a decent speed. To understand this you really need to know what a picking up dog is required to do. It's primary job is to pick injured birds and bring them back quickly so that they can be dispatched as quickly and humanely as possible. It's not to retrieve the dead birds out in front - those can be picked by hand. The runners will have up and gone, into cover, perhaps covered some distance before the dog gets to it, so yes, speed is important.

I'm not saying show labs can't work, some can, but they have limitations, both in their build and in the inherited abilities and drive.


----------



## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Rocco33 i have repped you  well said.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Another misconception - there are many working bred labs that are actually quite heavy in build, and actually, in reality, not that many are spindly whippets either.


A bit like the misconception that all show dogs are fat. No-one has said all working dogs are spindley whippets - but there are quite a few people who taill sieze every opportunity who believe that all show dogs are fat and not bred correctly 

There is a Ft Ch I've seen pictures of recently who is quite a handsome looking gent and whose pictures suggest a physique I certainly wouldn't be ashamed to be seen with in a show ring.

Despite breeding more into the show-lines, one of my pups from my last litter ended up in a working home, where they take their regular place on the local shoot and also run their dog in trials - it is early days yet, but I look forward to seeing and hearing how he gets on.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> A bit like the misconception that all show dogs are fat.


I actually said they carry a lot less weight rather than that they were fat. Some show dogs I've seen are, what I would consider, fat, some are simply more covered. And to be fair, during the summer, if not doing working tests, many working dogs will be better covered, but during the working season, they will be in hard condition.



> Despite breeding more into the show-lines, one of my pups from my last litter ended up in a working home, where they take their regular place on the local shoot and also run their dog in trials - it is early days yet, but I look forward to seeing and hearing how he gets on.


They're trialling one of your pups?

Well, I hope he does well, and I'm sure he'll love it, but my observation still remains that, on the whole, working dogs are better suited to working than their show (or pet) counterparts - for a number of different reasons, physique being one, although that's no reason why show dogs shouldn't enjoy it and be taken out. There are a number of roles on a shoot for dogs, and shoots vary in terms of the amount of work a dog is required, with regard to terrain and number of birds being picked - not all of them require a top class dog, in fact, many guns bring their dogs out to sit on the peg all day, just picking the occasional straightforward retrieve. That's fine - it's what enjoying your dogs is all about.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Who the hell gave power to the ''breed clubs'' so that they decide what type to breed? They have certainly f*cked up a lot of breeds!! Why does a Lab (for instance) HAVE to conform to the damned breed clubs rules!! Who the hell said they were right?? Surely in the Lab the WORKING type is the best? After all they orignated to be a working dog? So why have most show types got broader, heavier, fatter, shorter legged?? etcSame as an ESS or Cocker, they originated to be a working dog, yet the BREED CLUBS have decided to way over do the hair, ''type'' etc etc? Yep, while i have no problem people showing dogs i would never ever do it! Give me a working type breed anyday! Preferably as natural as possible, with no real changes to it!


Breed clubs have the power to set standards for their breed because they are the experts on that breed . Breed clubs are made up of people who own dogs - not just show dogs, but working dogs and pet dogs too. Who else would you have set breed standards?

As for working types differing from show types, I can't speak about labs because I have no knowledge about them. But in the case of cocker spaniels, which I used to own and breed, if you look at the breed from 20, 30, 50 years ago, and compare it with samples of today's show dogs and today's working dogs, you will see that the show dogs of today are a lot closer to the dogs of yesteryear than their working counterparts. It is not the show dogs who have altered (not surpising really, because show breeders have adhered to the breed standard) but the working dogs. Now, if people breeding working dogs have deliberately done this for whatever reason to make the dog able to do its job better, then that's fine. I can understand that completely and agree with it. However, what I cannot agree with is the inverted snobbery of people with working dogs looking down their noses at show dogs when a) show dogs have been bred true and b)it is the working dogs who have changed and deviated from the breed standard.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I actually said they carry a lot less weight rather than that they were fat. Some show dogs I've seen are, what I would consider, fat, some are simply more covered. And to be fair, during the summer, if not doing working tests, many working dogs will be better covered, but during the working season, they will be in hard condition.


I didn't actually say YOU said all show dogs were fat - I wouldn't insult you because it is clear you know your Labs and the different types.

I quoted you, because you stated that not all working labs are whippety types, which I know, and no-one actually said they were.

I said it is a common misconception that show labs are fat, usually by a big proportion of what tend to be pet Lab owners. In my experience, in fairness to many working people, they might not merit a show (or in some instances) a chocolate lab (for non-physical reasons) being in the field - because they feel they are too stocky - and wil indicate that SOME do carry too much weight - when in fact, those that do are in the minority.



rocco33 said:


> They're trialling one of your pups?


I didn't say that. I said they took one of my pups, and he will join the family and their other dogs on the regular shoot - they are well established with their existing dogs, whether my pup competes at any level remains to be seen - atm he's still very much a baby - but I will be sure to update how he comes on as and when.


----------



## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Personally I would NEVER want to be involved in the show ring. There is so much back biting and I have known of dogs being poisoned in order to prevent them from competing!

The majority of forum members know that my GSD Luika is badly cow hocked and he is our first from show stock. Our other GSD's were from working stock and had straighter backs and far healthier.

Now for all you breeders and show people out there, I am NOT tarring you all with the some brush. I know there are good and bad in every walk of life and good breeders will always fight to put the bad ones out of business.

I often wonder however, given the choice, if dogs would really wish to parade around a show ring, waiting hours for their turn only to be poked and pulled around by someone waving a clip board


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Nina said:


> Personally I would NEVER want to be involved in the show ring. There is so much back biting and I have known of dogs being poisoned in order to prevent them from competing!
> 
> The majority of forum members know that my GSD Luika is badly cow hocked and he is our first from show stock. Our other GSD's were from working stock and had straighter backs and far healthier.
> 
> ...


They don't wait hours to be in the ring - mine are in practically straight away. If they didn't wish it they wouldn't do it - believe me you can't make a newfie or a mal do something it doesn't want to :lol:. If a dog isn't happy in the ring it will not show well at all and it will be very ovbious to all watching. They aren't poked or pulled around - they are 'gone over' by the judge (hudson licks their ears whilst they do this) - alot of the time it's just a gentler way of what your vet does in my eyes.. checks teeth, ears, eyes, feet, body structure ect. Oh and the judge doesn't have a clipboard  x


----------



## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> If they didn't wish it they wouldn't do it - believe me you can't make a newfie or a mal do something it doesn't want to :lol:.


Or a Sibe for that matter. Ironically we get this criticism from the other direction too. On a number of occasions we have been criticised by bystanders for our cruelty in "making" our poor dogs work in harness. I usually ask such critics how they think it is possible to push a rope. The dogs love to pull and run in harness but if they don't want to, they won't. Same in the showring. If they don't want to do it, you will find out very quickly!

For Siberian Huskies, the showring is a crucial aspect of maintaining the breed as an arctic/sub arctic working sled dog. Although many of us in the UK love to work our dogs in harness, the temperatures and length of trails available make this little more than a gesture. A Siberian Husky should be capable of pulling a lightly laden sled up to 100 miles a day, day after day, in arctic conditions. Obviously there is no way we can replicate that in the UK, so the showring is the only real arena in which we can test our dogs' construction and movement to see whether, in theory, they would still be capable of doing the job they were bred over thousands of years to do. It's not perfect, but it's the best we can do.

Mick


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Nina said:


> I often wonder however, given the choice, if dogs would really wish to parade around a show ring, waiting hours for their turn only to be poked and pulled around by someone waving a clip board


 what shows do you go to?

In the 5 years I've been in the showring, I've yet to see a clipboard - the judge picks up their book after judging to write their critique on 1st placed (or 1st and 2nd dependent on the type of show).

As for waiting hours  my breed along with Goldies and some of the other gundogs tend to have much bigger classes than the other breeds. An entire show of 30 odd classes is judged during a day, if we had to wait hours, then the show would run over about 4 or 5 days with the numbers we get 

My dogs see the leads come out, they bounce around like puppies - they see the showbag come out - they go absolutely mental with excitment and give us serious grief until the minute we put them in the car.

As has been stressed goodness knows how many times, if a dog doesn't want to be in the showring, little but possibly the most experienced handlers would be able to do anything with them 

as for prodding and poking - the judge checks their teeth / bite and goes over them to check their conformation to the breed standard and coat condition etc - usually takes around one minute, and there again, you can pick out from a mile, any dog who is not particularly overjoyed with that.


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I think if you actually knew anything about showing dogs ect and your opinion was based on sheer ignorance then people would be more accepting of it. Other on this thread have said that it's not for them and that's fine. I mean what are your opinions actually based on? I mean at first it was because you don't think dogs want to be cooped up for ages (which they aren't), they'd be much happier running free and that you don't like their haircuts, although alot of breeds are shown very naturally. Then you said once more that the dogs aren't happy being cooped up for hours, being 'ponced' around a ring, being 'puffed and perfumed' and that show dogs are just used to it. Which is untrue. Apparently you worked at crufts which for some reason put you off although you haven't explained why, something i would like to hear for myself? I'm not trying to get at you here but i think you'd be pleasently surprised if you went to a dog show x


Oh I have been to meny and that is wear my opinions are from - that and working for crufts for a while well sevral years actully. I now not all breeds are onced and preened and find it funny that coz you beleeve your rite you feel the need to imply enyone against your views are ignorant or dont have nowledge or experience of shows. I thingk that is were meny get there experience and opinions


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

swarthy said:


> what shows do you go to?
> 
> In the 5 years I've been in the showring, I've yet to see a clipboard - the judge picks up their book after judging to write their critique on 1st placed (or 1st and 2nd dependent on the type of show).


Probably Nina has watched Shepherds being judged, I have stewarded for them and the judges do use clipboards and mark as they go along through the different gaits etc, normally when judging the Germanic type


----------



## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

I can fully understand if people and their dogs have tried showing and have decided its not for them.....Or have been to an Open or Champ show to actually walk around the rings and see dogs and handlers and decided its not for them BUT......

to slate dog shows and say "O its not for me bla de bla de bla" with so many misconstructions and having not even been to one is IMO totally wrong!!

Read the whole thread last night but have slept since then so cannot remember any quotes but a judge walking around waving a clip board?? Dogs not being able to walk, dogs caged for hours waiting to be seen etc etc...it happens everytime showing is mentioned.

Its like the ole saying...."Don't knock it till you have tried it"


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

deb53 said:


> I can fully understand if people and their dogs have tried showing and have decided its not for them.....Or have been to an Open or Champ show to actually walk around the rings and see dogs and handlers and decided its not for them BUT......
> 
> to slate dog shows and say "O its not for me bla de bla de bla" with so many misconstructions and having not even been to one is IMO totally wrong!!
> 
> ...


The main part of the OPs wording was to respect other peeples opinions and not turn it into an argument (not exact words but same meeing) yet on here it has become obvious that the show peeple thingk they are rite and other antishow peeple are wrong. The antishow peeple have all said that they dont have probs with those who do. Then we have those with working dogs who thingk they are the only rite ones, then the KC show peeple who seem to thingk non - KC shows are menial. It touched on crossbreeds AGAIN too - wot a diverse thread. Ive bee accused of specifying certain breeds (wrong) others like me have disagreed and been slated for having diffrent views but if we all thort the same it wud be boring. Someone was accused of not using tact - well that surly is how it was read not how it was written? End of the day it seems to me that those who breed or show or have pedigrees feel superior from evryone else and that to me shows lack of respect and consideration. no wunder many threads end up with being locked coz of arguing. How sad and pathetic:frown:


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

I dont think anyone should judge dog shows by Crufts. I personally do not like crufts at all, its more about the spectators than the dogs and exhibitors. It is very far from a "normal" dog show.

And going back to the working lab thing. None of the pups I sold to working homes ever competed in field trials, admittedly. They went to what I (rightly or wrongly!) consider to be a proper working home. On a working farm, or with a shooting enthusiast where the dog is trained specifically for the individuals working needs, rather than to complete trials. One of our dogs does a bit of everything, picking up, retrieving, flushing - whatever her owner wants. He is an older gentleman who has trained his own gundogs for many years and didnt want a working type lab as he said (his words not mine!) that they are untrainable for the work he wants to do with his dog as they are too highly strung. He liked the temperments of ours and the type, as he liked the old fashioned type he was working 40+ years ago and he is very happy with his dog who is not only his pet, companion and best friend, but his valuable worker. He takes him on big shoots as well and has recieved compliments from the other people there about his lovely looking labrador. He is heavier in body than many working bred labs, but has a good length of leg, lovely muzzle, nice head but he is very lean and very, very fit  Its a shame I dont have any pics of him to share as i think he is the perfect medium between the two types, i dont think his owner even has a computer though, bless him lol


----------



## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> The main part of the OPs wording was to respect other peeples opinions and not turn it into an argument (not exact words but same meeing) yet on here it has become obvious that the show peeple thingk they are rite and other antishow peeple are wrong. The antishow peeple have all said that they dont have probs with those who do. Then we have those with working dogs who thingk they are the only rite ones, then the KC show peeple who seem to thingk non - KC shows are menial. It touched on crossbreeds AGAIN too - wot a diverse thread. Ive bee accused of specifying certain breeds (wrong) others like me have disagreed and been slated for having diffrent views but if we all thort the same it wud be boring. Someone was accused of not using tact - well that surly is how it was read not how it was written? End of the day it seems to me that those who breed or show or have pedigrees feel superior from evryone else and that to me shows lack of respect and consideration. no wunder many threads end up with being locked coz of arguing. How sad and pathetic:frown:


Mollydoodle ....I am not argueing or showing you lack of respect and am most definatly not sad and pathetic.

I am putting my point across as are others on the thread.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

deb53 said:


> I can fully understand if people and their dogs have tried showing and have decided its not for them.....Or have been to an Open or Champ show to actually walk around the rings and see dogs and handlers and decided its not for them BUT......
> 
> to slate dog shows and say "O its not for me bla de bla de bla" with so many misconstructions and having not even been to one is IMO totally wrong!!
> 
> ...


regarding the dogs being caged for hours i must say it does happen. I have seen it myself at kc shows and i felt so sorry for the dogs in their little crates. 
MAybe the people commenting on it on here who show dont do it, and thats great, but denying it doesnt happen is not right. This arguement always comes up because its a occurance u see when u go to a show.

People if they go to show sometimes take several dogs with them or dogs they chose not put in the ring, and so the dogs are confined to the crate they came in, often being driven for hours to the show venue as well. And people often dont go for an hour and go back home, they stay for the day.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

tashi said:


> Probably Nina has watched Shepherds being judged, I have stewarded for them and the judges do use clipboards and mark as they go along through the different gaits etc, normally when judging the Germanic type


Thanks  You learn something new every day


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> People if they go to show sometimes take several dogs with them or dogs they chose not put in the ring, and so the dogs are confined to the crate they came in, often being driven for hours to she show venue as well. And people often dont go for an hour and go back home, they stay for the day.


When you initially came on talking about showing, I thought you were a hardened show exhibitor, now i discover you don't have a KC registered breed.

So in addition to your regular shows you go to with the dogs that enjoy it, it now appears you are also the font of all knowledge on the KC show world.

Your dogs must get left home alone a considerable amount if you go to so many KC shows, watch people come in, monitor their activities of their dogs being left alone in crates for hours on end, and then wait to see if they stay until the end - or do you enter them not for competition and stand at the ringside for the entire duration of the show to monitor what people are doing?

In the time I've been showing, occasionally we are fortunate enough to get through to BIS - where, unless it is something like an agricultural event where there is something to do for both dogs and owners, the place is usually, by that time, like a morgue, with just generally those that have got through to BIS and the people who come to watch.

I clearly miss every show where people come in, do their breed classes at 9am and then all stay until the end while their dogs are laying in crates.

Yes, dogs are put in crates at shows for some of the time they are there - but the large majority of exhibitors are off and out once they have finished their classes (unless of course they won and are required to stay).


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

Mollydoodle said:


> The main part of the OPs wording was to respect other peeples opinions and not turn it into an argument (not exact words but same meeing) yet on here it has become obvious that the show peeple thingk they are rite and other antishow peeple are wrong. The antishow peeple have all said that they dont have probs with those who do. Then we have those with working dogs who thingk they are the only rite ones, then the KC show peeple who seem to thingk non - KC shows are menial. It touched on crossbreeds AGAIN too - wot a diverse thread. Ive bee accused of specifying certain breeds (wrong) others like me have disagreed and been slated for having diffrent views but if we all thort the same it wud be boring. Someone was accused of not using tact - well that surly is how it was read not how it was written? End of the day it seems to me that those who breed or show or have pedigrees feel superior from evryone else and that to me shows lack of respect and consideration. no wunder many threads end up with being locked coz of arguing. How sad and pathetic:frown:


I dont show my cavs but my friends do and enjoy it and i do go to shows and am i member of my breed club but i dont show as its not my cup of tea but i never slate people that show if they enjoy and so do the dogs i dont see a problem.
Have you been to a show? im sure you would enjoy it:thumbup:


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

swarthy said:


> When you initially came on talking about showing, I thought you were a hardened show exhibitor, now i discover you don't have a KC registered breed.
> 
> So in addition to your regular shows you go to with the dogs that enjoy it, it now appears you are also the font of all knowledge on the KC show world.
> 
> ...


Yes, i do have a KC registered breed.

and i dont show at kc shows myself, no, but i go as "support" for friends who do lol obviously im not going every weekend lol but thats irrelevant of the amount of apperances tbh

And no, my dogs are not being left on their own while im not here, i do sort out appriopriate care for them in the time being.

U mention the large majority, i mention those who do keep their dogs for hours in crates in the cars or vans, they are just as part of the show world like those who take care of their dogs properly.

And no , im not all knowledge and i take it as a compliment if i come across as such  lol


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Most of the time my dogs are out with me whilst at the show. We take them shopping, buy them some treats, let them munch on the freebies - they love it! If they have got through to a group, or best in show, or if it is very hot/raining I will leave them in their crates where they will happily go to sleep. If they were stressed about being in their crates they would not do that. And these arent dogs who are doing that because its all they are used to, my dogs have the run of the house and are treated as normal pets, they do appreciate a bit of quiet time at the shows though, just as i do. 

At most shows, like Swarthy said, most people do not stay til the end of the day. At most it will be the Group winners and those who are there to support them. Generally if you have not qualified for BIS you tend to go home after your classes.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> waiting hours for their turn


Well that would count working labs out too then. There is a LOT of steadiness and waiting involved in working a gundog and this is actually a trait you NEED in a working dog. 



> that they are untrainable for the work he wants to do with his dog as they are too highly strung.


Again, I know they're not your words, but rubbish. Steadiness is key to a working lab. I would suggest that it could be his training that is lacking 



> I said it is a common misconception that show labs are fat, usually by a big proportion of what tend to be pet Lab owners. In my experience, in fairness to many working people, they might not merit a show (or in some instances) a chocolate lab (for non-physical reasons) being in the field - because they feel they are too stocky - and wil indicate that SOME do carry too much weight - when in fact, those that do are in the minority


.

Sadly there are many misconceptions about both show and working labs. I heard one the other day (from a labradoodle pet owner) that show dogs had more problems with their joints because they were heavier .

In all honesty, I think that while many prefer a lighter dog that many of those seen in the show ring the main reason is lack of drive and ability. That's not to say a show bred (or pet bred) lab can't be trained to do a decent day in the field, the vast majority don't have the drive or natural ability to do much more than that. This is apparent in working tests on dummies(they do tend to kick up a gear on live game) where the show labs tend to struggle beyond novice level. In order to compete in novice trials one should really be at open level working tests.

Getting back to the original question, while it isn't for me, I have no problem with people showing their dogs and think any dog involved in activities, whether that be showing, working, agility, working trials etc is a much happier and more fulfilled dog. That's not knocking pet owners who don't do anything with their dogs either - dogs are remarkably adaptable - that's why they have evolved to be such wonderful companions, however, when you see a dog working (and I'm not just talking about gundog work but assistance dogs, drugs detection dogs etc) or being involved in some other activity and loving it you realise what a tiny portion of their potential we actually see.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> Yes, i do have a KC registered breed.
> 
> and i dont show at kc shows myself, no, but i go as "support" for friends who do lol obviously im not going every weekend lol but thats irrelevant of the amount of apperances tbh
> 
> ...


If your friends are leaving their dogs in cages and cars for hours then that is them and a minority of other show people, dont tar everyone with the same brush.

You come across as a know it all for sure :lol:


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> yet on here it has become obvious that the show peeple thingk they are rite and other antishow peeple are wrong.


I don't think that that is the case, simply that there is a lot of misconceptions around showing and a dog's enjoyment of it - and they are just trying to put that across.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I can't say i can see the enjoyment of showing, but then again im not a die hard fan of any particualr breed.

I cant see how showing is any different to things like agility and obedience, yet no one ever slates them. I spent a lot of times at obedience days/trials with a woman i worked for, and many of those dogs were treated in a similar manner to dogs which are shown; caged for short periods etc.
With her dogs that weren't up to scratch were rehomed (i had a cast off collie from her). 

Im sure there are those for whom winning and reputation is everything, and where perhaps the dogs enjoyment comes second, but i would hope they are in the minority.

I think a lot of people base their opinions on showing after going to or seeing Crufts, but i believe this show is unlike others being on the large scale it is. Ive been, and hated it apart from the stalls and freebies. I have also been to a KC show (small scale) and whilst not blown away, it was much more relaxed and the dogs looked far happier and were able to mingle and generally be dogs.

I have a few other opinions on showing, but as i dont know a huge amount about it, they arent the best informed ones 

I dont think its cruel, the vast majority of the dogs are fit and healthy and i cant see a depressed or stressed dog doing well in the ring, so im sured none are paraded around against their will.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> If your friends are leaving their dogs in cages and cars for hours then that is them and a minority of other show people, dont tar everyone with the same brush.
> 
> You come across as a know it all for sure :lol:


now ur actually just being rude assuming that to be my friends and assmuning my friends would do that...

so do u and i am glad rocco put some points straight about the things u posted about labs


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Well that would count working labs out too then. There is a LOT of steadiness and waiting involved in working a gundog and this is actually a trait you NEED in a working dog.
> 
> *
> Again, I know they're not your words, but rubbish. Steadiness is key to a working lab. I would suggest that it could be his training that is lacking *
> ...


Like I said, not my words. He has been training gundogs for about 50 years, and has never chosen a working labrador as a gundog on his farm as he said they were too highly strung when he has been on shoots with others with them. I have to say, a lot of working bred labs I have seen have been very steady and I did have quite an interesting chat with him about it, but he wanted a show bred lab because of the more chilled out temperment (which they DO have) and thats fine, it went to a lovely home :thumbup: He was an older man, like I said, and maybe he needed a dog that was much less maintenance and he certainly got that, he loves his little show bred working lab :lol:

But anyway, we seem to have gone off on a tangent about working dogs and that is not at all what this thread is about :lol:


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Natik said:


> And no , im not all knowledge and i take it as a compliment if i come across as such  lol


 really - because your seeming authority and perspective on what happens are shows is considerably misplaced - I am shocked and surprised that someone who doesn't show goes to events and monitors all these people who come in first thing in the morning, desert their dogs and stay until the bitter end 

I show at least once a week, and occasionally stay until the end if we need to - I can only assume that all these people who do this week in, week out, make a mental note of the shows I attend and chose not to do this 

The fact there can be 40 + dogs missing from a stakes class gives a measure of the numbers of people who actually do this.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the times where it does really are very few and far between - the large majority running off once they've finished their classes to take their dogs out / get back to their other dogs / do their daily chores.

However, even if someone did stay to the end, and did put their dog in the crate for a period of time, in nearly every instance this is a once a week or less affair - there are pet dogs up and down the country left home alone, and often in crates for far longer periods than anyone would do at a show


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

cav said:


> I dont show my cavs but my friends do and enjoy it and i do go to shows and am i member of my breed club but i dont show as its not my cup of tea but i never slate people that show if they enjoy and so do the dogs i dont see a problem.
> Have you been to a show? im sure you would enjoy it:thumbup:


 I have allready said Ive been to lots of shows and worked for crufts too and that is were my opinions came from. I wasn't slating peeple I am trying to get peeple to see that we all have choises and noone is rite or wrong.

in fact this thread has mostly in the last 8 pages been between 3 posters and so it continues so perhaps nothing anyone else says will change them


----------



## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I agree with showing dogs. I plan to show in the future with my future cavalier bitch. 

When I went to companion shows with Ollie when he was younger, they were quite unorganised, we waited around for hours waiting for our classes which were sometimes in the afternoon and we had to get there at 8am in the morning, and Ollie didn't like showing, so I stopped it as it wasn't fair. I did see dogs kept in cages at the ringside but they seemed perfectly happy to me and we obviously very used to being in crates.

I imagine (and I hope) that KC open shows are much better where classes are organised, people aren't left waiting for hours for their classes to start etc.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> now ur actually just being rude assuming that to be my friends and assmuning my friends would do that...
> 
> so do u and i am glad rocco put some points straight about the things u posted about labs


Umm.. most of that was not what i posted and the only thing rocco mentioned that i posted was said to me by someone else, as i acknowledged in my post. You might want to read a post before you comment on it :lol:

You were the one saying you went along to shows with friends, they are the ones feeding you all these "facts", you cant possibly know what every other exhibitor is doing without following them around, therefore... One must assume its what your friends are doing 

Or, probably more accurately, no one is doing it and you're just going by what you've read on other forums :lol:


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Rocco - I would have rep'd you for that last post - but apparently, I've been 'putting it about' too much in the last 24 hours


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> i mention those who do keep their dogs for hours in crates in the cars or vans, they are just as part of the show world


I think this happens in all areas of dog ownership - including pet owners. However, I see this differently. It's one of the things I hugely admire in dogs. Their ability to switch off and switch on at a moments notice. This comes naturally to them and shows a contented dog. And just before someone picks me up on this, I'm not talking about those left in hot cars or in discomfort.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

If I didn't know anything at all about showing, and I was reading this thread to find out about it, one thing would stand out above all others. The people who are saying that show dogs love what they do, that they live normal and fun lives, are the people _*who actually show*_ at Open shows and Championship shows. The people who are bleating about show dogs being unhappy, about show dogs being forced to parade around for hours, about show dogs being kept in crates all day, about dogs being forced hours to wait their turn, are people who have very little experience or no experience of all of showing at this level. I'd be asking myself where they came by their information, if they have so little experience.

I know who I'd believe - it would be the people who are actually doing it, the people who *KNOW *what they are talking about.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

swarthy said:


> really - because your seeming authority and perspective on what happens are shows is considerably misplaced - I am shocked and surprised that someone who doesn't show goes to events and monitors all these people who come in first thing in the morning, desert their dogs and stay until the bitter end
> 
> I show at least once a week, and occasionally stay until the end if we need to - I can only assume that all these people who do this week in, week out, make a mental note of the shows I attend and chose not to do this
> 
> ...


why is it shocking that i go to shows if i dont enter the ring? 
I go cause the dogs entered are related to mine so i have an interest as to how they are doing and i like the day out, as im interested in showing.

(in red) thats all i was mereley pointing out, that it does happen, so i dont understand whats the issue is tbh i wasnt saying everyone does it, nor was i giving any sort of percentege or whatever on occurances which i obviously dont have.

Im surprised u can monitor while showing at the same time to comment on the amount of time dogs are being crated for as well tbh....


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

Jess2308 said:


> Umm.. most of that was not what i posted and the only thing rocco mentioned that i posted was said to me by someone else, as i acknowledged in my post. You might want to read a post before you comment on it :lol:
> 
> You were the one saying you went along to shows with friends, they are the ones feeding you all these "facts", you cant possibly know what every other exhibitor is doing without following them around, therefore... One must assume its what your friends are doing
> 
> Or, probably more accurately, no one is doing it and you're just going by what you've read on other forums :lol:


so shud we all go to dogshows and distract the dogs and judges by following the exhibitors around the ring then to change our opinions? I don't thingk so!


----------



## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Everytime a show thread appears it seems there are always comments about dogs being lay around all day waiting to be judged, what people forget is if you own dogs and go to work to earn a living, what are your dogs doing while you are not at home? are they out by themselves running about all day? or doing some form of agility? feild trials? no they are probably lay about all day possibly bored, waiting for you to come home and take them for a walk, so whats the difference to being in the home all day lay about doing nothing, to being at a show and lay about waiting to be gone over by a judge,but have the added bonus of being taken off the bench to walk around the showground, have some one on one time with owner while being groomed? to me showing is a day out with my dogs no different to me getting my dogs out and travelling to places to walk around with my dogs ie parks/shopping centers/looking at historical buildings etc,having total strangers come over to us and stroke our dogs while out, talking to people about our dogs when they ask questions, I am still spending time with my dogs, they are being socialised at shows as they would be out on walks visiting places, why is it presumed by some people that because I show my dogs they are somehow lacking a life? showing is one aspect of my life with my dogs, I enjoy showing because for one I meet friends that live some distance away from me that I may not get to see as often as I would like, plus I am not ashamed to admit I love people praising my dogs, telling me how beautiful they are because in my eyes they are beautiful and I am like a proud mum when one of my dogs does well, if they dont do well getting placed at a show I STILL beleive my kid is the best in the world, they will still get treated and loved the same as they have always been so whats the problem with showing? owning dogs should have many aspects to how you interact with them, taking them out for walks, exercising them,grooming them, training them, socialising them with humans and dogs, how many "normal" pets have the opportunity to be in the company of hundreds of dogs and learn to behave nicely? showing is just one part of the life I share with my dogs, and I for one will continue to enjoy it and let the ones that have no real knowledge of showing or my life get on with their tunneled vision view of showing, because some people just KNOW they are right even when they are wrong IMO.

Mo


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Umm.. most of that was not what i posted and the only thing rocco mentioned that i posted was said to me by someone else, as i acknowledged in my post. You might want to read a post before you comment on it :lol:
> 
> You were the one saying you went along to shows with friends, they are the ones feeding you all these "facts", you cant possibly know what every other exhibitor is doing without following them around, therefore... One must assume its what your friends are doing
> 
> Or, probably more accurately, no one is doing it and you're just going by what you've read on other forums :lol:


i feel ur just taking the mockery out of my posts and are degrading the things i say and dont seem to be able to post in an adult and respectable manner, so i just might as well ignore ur posts from now on.

Noone is feeding me anything, and i wish u would stop saying things which are simply not true about me.


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Showing isnt my cup of tea and i dont like to see dogs re homed because they didnt do well but at the end of the day its the owners choice. The last show i visited the dogs where in lovely cages (like big fabric pens) I saw nothing wrong in this, it kept the dogs in the shade and they could all be together. I took pip and Ziggy for the day out and they seemed to enjoy meeting other dogs, I think shows are brilliant for socialisation and for you to have a good friendly chat. Aslong as dogs who dont like it arn't forced into showing i dont see a problem. Ziggy loved showing (in his previous home) and still to this day he will jump on my coffee table and pose lol.


----------



## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

moboyd said:


> Everytime a show thread appears it seems there are always comments about dogs being lay around all day waiting to be judged, what people forget is if you own dogs and go to work to earn a living, what are your dogs doing while you are not at home? are they out by themselves running about all day? or doing some form of agility? feild trials? no they are probably lay about all day possibly bored, waiting for you to come home and take them for a walk, so whats the difference to being in the home all day lay about doing nothing, to being at a show and lay about waiting to be gone over by a judge,but have the added bonus of being taken off the bench to walk around the showground, have some one on one time with owner while being groomed? to me showing is a day out with my dogs no different to me getting my dogs out and travelling to places to walk around with my dogs ie parks/shopping centers/looking at historical buildings etc,having total strangers come over to us and stroke our dogs while out, talking to people about our dogs when they ask questions, I am still spending time with my dogs, they are being socialised at shows as they would be out on walks visiting places, why is it presumed by some people that because I show my dogs they are somehow lacking a life? showing is one aspect of my life with my dogs, I enjoy showing because for one I meet friends that live some distance away from me that I may not get to see as often as I would like, plus I am not ashamed to admit I love people praising my dogs, telling me how beautiful they are because in my eyes they are beautiful and I am like a proud mum when one of my dogs does well, if they dont do well getting placed at a show I STILL beleive my kid is the best in the world, they will still get treated and loved the same as they have always been so whats the problem with showing? owning dogs should have many aspects to how you interact with them, taking them out for walks, exercising them,grooming them, training them, socialising them with humans and dogs, how many "normal" pets have the opportunity to be in the company of hundreds of dogs and learn to behave nicely? showing is just one part of the life I share with my dogs, and I for one will continue to enjoy it and let the ones that have no real knowledge of showing or my life get on with their tunneled vision view of showing, because some people just KNOW they are right even when they are wrong IMO.
> 
> Mo


Great post Mo :thumbup:


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Spellweaver said:


> If I didn't know anything at all about showing, and I was reading this thread to find out about it, one thing would stand out above all others. The people who are saying that show dogs love what they do, that they live normal and fun lives, are the people _*who actually show*_ at Open shows and Championship shows. The people who are bleating about show dogs being unhappy, about show dogs being forced to parade around for hours, about show dogs being kept in crates all day, about dogs being forced hours to wait their turn, are people who have very little experience or no experience of all of showing at this level. I'd be asking myself where they came by their information, if they have so little experience.
> 
> I know who I'd believe - it would be the people who are actually doing it, the people who *KNOW *what they are talking about.


Dog shows are a lovely social occasion for both dog and owner, are they not :thumbup:

At many shows you will see very happy owners all sat round laughing and joking and all their dogs laying at their feet, all mixed in together proving the temperament is the same as the owners :thumbup: Crufts is a different affair as it is now a glorified trade show and to be honest the dogs are safer on the benches or in their crates, I dont know how many stupid comments you here from 'joe public' about 'too many dogs to get around' 'it smells of dogs in here' 'how can you look at the dresses properly when these dogs keep getting in the way'

I show my 'pets', I have one here that is never shown she didnt enjoy it, so she goes hill walking with my OH, although she is now getting on in years so doesnt go so often now. As soon as the 'grooming bag' is brought out the dogs race to be the first in the car, the excitement of going to a show is evident to see, as for being crated I have the old golden here that we cannot keep out of crates, if there is one open he will get in it, this photo of him is in one of the spitz crates BUT he got himself into it


----------



## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

moboyd said:


> Everytime a show thread appears it seems there are always comments about dogs being lay around all day waiting to be judged, what people forget is if you own dogs and go to work to earn a living, what are your dogs doing while you are not at home? are they out by themselves running about all day? or doing some form of agility? feild trials? no they are probably lay about all day possibly bored, waiting for you to come home and take them for a walk, so whats the difference to being in the home all day lay about doing nothing, to being at a show and lay about waiting to be gone over by a judge,but have the added bonus of being taken off the bench to walk around the showground, have some one on one time with owner while being groomed? to me showing is a day out with my dogs no different to me getting my dogs out and travelling to places to walk around with my dogs ie parks/shopping centers/looking at historical buildings etc,having total strangers come over to us and stroke our dogs while out, talking to people about our dogs when they ask questions, I am still spending time with my dogs, they are being socialised at shows as they would be out on walks visiting places, why is it presumed by some people that because I show my dogs they are somehow lacking a life? showing is one aspect of my life with my dogs, I enjoy showing because for one I meet friends that live some distance away from me that I may not get to see as often as I would like, plus I am not ashamed to admit I love people praising my dogs, telling me how beautiful they are because in my eyes they are beautiful and I am like a proud mum when one of my dogs does well, if they dont do well getting placed at a show I STILL beleive my kid is the best in the world, they will still get treated and loved the same as they have always been so whats the problem with showing? owning dogs should have many aspects to how you interact with them, taking them out for walks, exercising them,grooming them, training them, socialising them with humans and dogs, how many "normal" pets have the opportunity to be in the company of hundreds of dogs and learn to behave nicely? showing is just one part of the life I share with my dogs, and I for one will continue to enjoy it and let the ones that have no real knowledge of showing or my life get on with their tunneled vision view of showing, because some people just KNOW they are right even when they are wrong IMO.
> 
> Mo


Brilliant post Mo!
As an example, we had a wonderful day at Southern Counties Champ Show on Sunday. The dogs got spoiled rotten - we had a lovely litter reunion - we met friends we hadn't seen for ages, swapped gossip, fussed each others dogs and both dogs and people had a lovely time.

Mick


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> If I didn't know anything at all about showing, and I was reading this thread to find out about it, one thing would stand out above all others. The people who are saying that show dogs love what they do, that they live normal and fun lives, are the people _*who actually show*_ at Open shows and Championship shows. The people who are bleating about show dogs being unhappy, about show dogs being forced to parade around for hours, about show dogs being kept in crates all day, about dogs being forced hours to wait their turn, are people who have very little experience or no experience of all of showing at this level. I'd be asking myself where they came by their information, if they have so little experience.
> 
> I know who I'd believe - it would be the people who are actually doing it, the people who *KNOW *what they are talking about.


VERY WELL SAID!! Rep for you :thumbup:


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> i feel ur just taking the mockery out of my posts and are degrading the things i say and dont seem to be able to post in an adult and respectable manner, so i just might as well ignore ur posts from now on.
> 
> Noone is feeding me anything, and i wish u would stop saying things which are simply not true about me.


Nothing you are saying you can back up with any kind of fact, so I will chose to assume that it is not true until you can prove it. Im sorry, but you are coming across like a petulant child, if you wish to not read my posts then dont, but no need to bleat about it :lol:


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

tashi said:


> Dog shows are a lovely social occasion for both dog and owner, are they not :thumbup:
> 
> At many shows you will see very happy owners all sat round laughing and joking and all their dogs laying at their feet, all mixed in together proving the temperament is the same as the owners :thumbup: Crufts is a different affair as it is now a glorified trade show and to be honest the dogs are safer on the benches or in their crates, I dont know how many stupid comments you here from 'joe public' about 'too many dogs to get around' 'it smells of dogs in here' 'how can you look at the dresses properly when these dogs keep getting in the way'
> 
> ...


At Crufts a couple of years ago a member of wonderful "joe public" stood on one of the pugs waiting to go in the ring, then loudly moaned about how they "couldnt move for all the bl00dy dogs around here" :confused1:

At Crufts I do keep the little ones on the benches as they have been kicked, stood on and run into by prams just around their rings, I certainly wouldnt risk taking them around the trade stands. My main problem with crufts is that exhibitors are stuck there til 4pm, you cant remove any dogs til after then. That only increases the idea of joe public that show dogs sit on crates all day til the end of the show, when in reality owners and exhibitors are just counting the hours til we can remove our dogs from the show. I would like to see that rule changed, it isnt there for any other show, so why Crufts?


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Nina said:


> I often wonder however, given the choice, if dogs would really wish to parade around a show ring, waiting hours for their turn only to be poked and pulled around by someone waving a clip board


If you are wondering whether or not dogs enjoy showing, then the answer is a big resounding YES. Given a choice of any activity whatsoever, my oldest Bergamasco would prefer to be in the show ring than doing anything else. If you actually went to a show, instead of just assuming you know all about them from what you've read in the less salubrious media, you would be able to see for yourself the happy, healthy dogs enjoying what they do.

Dogs are not poked and pulled around by someone waving a clip board. Dogs are moved in the ring by the owner or handler. The judge goes over them gently - any judge who poked a dog would soon be complained about and warned and fined by the Kennel Club. Again, if you actually went to some shows you would see this for yoruself.

Dogs don't just lay about waiting hours for their turn. We have two breeds and my nieces also participate in YKC Handling and Stakes classes. From arriving at the show until leaving it, our dogs are certainly not waiting - sometimes there's barely time for a quick brush before we dash from one ring to the next. Then there's all the socialising and meeting and playing with their friends and litter mates that they do. Our 9 year old female bergie actually doesn't like being in the show ring, but she does love going to shows and meeting dogs and people she knows, so for a special treat we enter her "not for competition" so that she can some to the show. She absolutely loves it when we do that. With all this going on, our dogs are never still, and we often get to the end of a show and find that we haven't even had time to walk around the stalls to see what bargains are on offer.

On the journey home we always have a vehicle full of happy, contented, sleeping dogs, dreaming about their fabulous day. And the minute the show bags come out, they want to do it all again.


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

moboyd said:


> Everytime a show thread appears it seems there are always comments about dogs being lay around all day waiting to be judged, what people forget is if you own dogs and go to work to earn a living, what are your dogs doing while you are not at home? are they out by themselves running about all day? or doing some form of agility? feild trials? no they are probably lay about all day possibly bored, waiting for you to come home and take them for a walk, so whats the difference to being in the home all day lay about doing nothing, to being at a show and lay about waiting to be gone over by a judge,but have the added bonus of being taken off the bench to walk around the showground, have some one on one time with owner while being groomed? to me showing is a day out with my dogs no different to me getting my dogs out and travelling to places to walk around with my dogs ie parks/shopping centers/looking at historical buildings etc,having total strangers come over to us and stroke our dogs while out, talking to people about our dogs when they ask questions, I am still spending time with my dogs, they are being socialised at shows as they would be out on walks visiting places, why is it presumed by some people that because I show my dogs they are somehow lacking a life? showing is one aspect of my life with my dogs, I enjoy showing because for one I meet friends that live some distance away from me that I may not get to see as often as I would like, plus I am not ashamed to admit I love people praising my dogs, telling me how beautiful they are because in my eyes they are beautiful and I am like a proud mum when one of my dogs does well, if they dont do well getting placed at a show I STILL beleive my kid is the best in the world, they will still get treated and loved the same as they have always been so whats the problem with showing? owning dogs should have many aspects to how you interact with them, taking them out for walks, exercising them,grooming them, training them, socialising them with humans and dogs, how many "normal" pets have the opportunity to be in the company of hundreds of dogs and learn to behave nicely? showing is just one part of the life I share with my dogs, and I for one will continue to enjoy it and let the ones that have no real knowledge of showing or my life get on with their tunneled vision view of showing, because some people just KNOW they are right even when they are wrong IMO.
> Mo


but who says you are rite and we are wrong? shudnt you just agree we are all entittled to our own views made by our own judgement not because we are tunnellvisioned or ignorant or woteva?


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

Soz to go back on somethingk from way back but I do not agree with dogs being rehomed JUST because theyare no good at showing - cudn;'t they just be kept as pets or does it cum down to money and not love of the animal? Not trying to upset enyone just don't understand thats all.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> but who says you are rite and we are wrong? shudnt you just agree we are all entittled to our own views made by our own judgement not because we are tunnellvisioned or ignorant or woteva?


Possibly because we are actively involved in the show world, not just giving an opinion on it from an outside point of view. We are there competing our dogs and mingling with other exhibitors so we know the ins and outs of what goes on. Yes there are some people who put prize cards above all else, but they are in the very tiny majority


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Mollydoodle said:


> Soz to go back on somethingk from way back but I do not agree with dogs being rehomed JUST because theyare no good at showing - cudn;'t they just be kept as pets or does it cum down to money and not love of the animal? Not trying to upset enyone just don't understand thats all.


Doesnt come down to money, we have rehomed some of ours to a very good friend and they live their lives out in front of the fire with frequent trips on holiday to Cornwall, we see them often as I keep them trimmed, this friend doesnt want puppies, so when she visits she quite often asks if one of our retired ones can go 'on holiday'. We do have older retired ones here but our golden oldies live their lives out in absolute doggy heaven.


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

its always going to happen, its human nature to strive for better animals, so they have to re home to continue breeding, otherwise they could end up with silly numbers. I will say this..... show people dont just give their dogs to just anyone who will take them. I couldn't do it personally but i guess thats because i dont show..... (by choice)


----------



## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> but who says you are rite and we are wrong? shudnt you just agree we are all entittled to our own views made by our own judgement not because we are tunnellvisioned or ignorant or woteva?


no one saying whos "right" or wrong, you have your view, but you have no knowledge on how I spend my life or how I interact with my dogs, I know absolutly nothing about lets say feild trials, or PAT work, or sniffer dog training, would I go on a thread saying I dont beleive its right for dogs to do these activites because its wrong? No, would I say the dogs doing those activities are leading less a life than a "normal pet"? No, because I am not qualified to express an opinion because I have no knowledge of these events, whats involved, how much interaction the dogs owners/handlers have with their dog, how much time is spent by the dog being inactive. many of the negative post regarding showing dogs have been made with sweeping statements, many of the post have been made by people who have no real knowledge, but just dont think its right, they have no real reason for not liking showing, just that they dont like it, I dont like rhubarb, never tasted it but just dont like it? but I would not stop someone else from eating it, I dont know the enjoyment they get when eating it, or the benifits the other person may get from eating it, I only know I dont like it, I have tunnelled vision when it comes to rhubarb, similar principle to some of the views some members have expressed in this thread,

Mo


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> but who says you are rite and we are wrong? shudnt you just agree we are all entittled to our own views made by our own judgement not because we are tunnellvisioned or ignorant or woteva?


Anyone can have an opinion on anything. I have an opinion about nuclear physics - but I know sod all about it except what I have read and seen on TV. If this were a thread about nuclear physics, I would be expressing my opinion, but I would be agreeing immediately that the opinion of a nuclear physicist would be more accurate than my opinion because of his knowledge of the subject. (note: not more valid, because everyone's opinion is valid, but more accurate)

There is no shame in admitting you know nothing about a subject. There *is* shame in pretending you know about a subject from what you've read and seen on TV and trying to blag your way through it as if you do have first hand knowledge.


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

Jess2308 said:


> Possibly because we are actively involved in the show world, not just giving an opinion on it from an outside point of view. We are there competing our dogs and mingling with other exhibitors so we know the ins and outs of what goes on. Yes there are some people who put prize cards above all else, but they are in the very tiny majority


Well I have been actively involved working at crufts and it changed my views - what you are saying then is you are rite and anyone who disagrees is wrong - how sad is that? Narrowmindedness is a terrible thingk. I am not saying my views are right or wrong but they are my views and I haven't once said on here or anywhere else that showing dogs should be stopped or the peeople who do it are wrong to do it - they have there views and we have ours there isn't a superiority thingk here you no


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

tashi said:


> Doesnt come down to money, we have rehomed some of ours to a very good friend and they live their lives out in front of the fire with frequent trips on holiday to Cornwall, we see them often as I keep them trimmed, this friend doesnt want puppies, so when she visits she quite often asks if one of our retired ones can go 'on holiday'. We do have older retired ones here but our golden oldies live their lives out in absolute doggy heaven.


I dont get that coz to me if molly ended up wiv a leg missing or somethingk I wouldn't get rid of her coz she wasn't suitable. I luv her and it is unconditional but perhaps i see them as pets and animals with feelings not commodities


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Mollydoodle said:


> I dont get that coz to me if molly ended up wiv a leg missing or somethingk I wouldn't get rid of her coz she wasn't suitable. I luv her and it is unconditional but perhaps i see them as pets and animals with feelings not commodities


Didnt say they were unsuitable, they are retired and yes we love them - ours are not commodities


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Mollydoodle said:


> Well I have been actively involved working at crufts and it changed my views - what you are saying then is you are rite and anyone who disagrees is wrong - how sad is that? Narrowmindedness is a terrible thingk. I am not saying my views are right or wrong but they are my views and I haven't once said on here or anywhere else that showing dogs should be stopped or the peeople who do it are wrong to do it - they have there views and we have ours there isn't a superiority thingk here you no


Can I ask where or what you worked for at Crufts - perhaps it will give us more of an idea as to what you would have seen


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

moboyd said:


> no one saying whos "right" or wrong, you have your view, but you have no knowledge on how I spend my life or how I interact with my dogs, I know absolutly nothing about lets say feild trials, or PAT work, or sniffer dog training, would I go on a thread saying I dont beleive its right for dogs to do these activites because its wrong? No, would I say the dogs doing those activities are leading less a life than a "normal pet"? No, because I am not qualified to express an opinion because I have no knowledge of these events, whats involved, how much interaction the dogs owners/handlers have with their dog, how much time is spent by the dog being inactive. many of the negative post regarding showing dogs have been made with sweeping statements, many of the post have been made by people who have no real knowledge, but just dont think its right, they have no real reason for not liking showing, just that they dont like it, I dont like rhubarb, never tasted it but just dont like it? but I would not stop someone else from eating it, I dont know the enjoyment they get when eating it, or the benifits the other person may get from eating it, I only know I dont like it, I have tunnelled vision when it comes to rhubarb, similar principle to some of the views some members have expressed in this thread,
> 
> Mo


yes well i do have experience of dogshowing and I made my views through that so you have yours and you thingk you are right. I have mine but I respect those wiv other opinions and all I cask from them is the right to make my own decisions and how I like. I could have just researched stuff on the web but I have been there and learnt a great deal from it - enough to put me off ever doing it for fun or woteva and I feel that i respect my dog that i wouldn't give her away just because she didnt suit for showing or woteva. she has feelings, she loves me and would be sad if she was rehomed. Id be devestated, well I just wudnt do it.


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Mollydoodle said:


> I dont get that coz to me if molly ended up wiv a leg missing or somethingk I wouldn't get rid of her coz she wasn't suitable. I luv her and it is unconditional but perhaps i see them as pets and animals with feelings not commodities


I can see what your saying but some show people have alot of dogs, so I can see why they do it so the dogs get one to one attention. Rather then live in a pack. I dont personally like it but i am open minded and try to look at it from all sides.


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Anyone can have an opinion on anything. I have an opinion about nuclear physics - but I know sod all about it except what I have read and seen on TV. If this were a thread about nuclear physics, I would be expressing my opinion, but I would be agreeing immediately that the opinion of a nuclear physicist would be more accurate (not: not more valid, because everyone's opinion is valid, but more accurate) than my opinion because of his knowledge of the subject.
> 
> There is no shame in admitting you know nothing about a subject. There *is* shame in pretending you know about a subject from what you've read and seen on TV and trying to blag your way through it as if you do have first hand knowledge.


i agree with u there...

I go to shows, both KC and non KC shows so i believe i am in a place to be able to comment on things I have seen with my own eyes, unlike people commenting on shows they have never been to but feel they can comment on it through hear say....

I like showing, i like the concept of it, i like the excitment to find out if my dog does well or not, i like my dogs socializing with the others and i love love love seeing all the other dogs being owned by other people. 
My dogs if people seen my pic threads (lol) are happy and well cared for dogs, even the one left behind for those times when im out and about. 
However i will not ignore those who dont do it right and talk like they dont excist because they are in the minority.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> Well I have been actively involved working at crufts and it changed my views - what you are saying then is you are rite and anyone who disagrees is wrong - how sad is that? Narrowmindedness is a terrible thingk. I am not saying my views are right or wrong but they are my views and I haven't once said on here or anywhere else that showing dogs should be stopped or the peeople who do it are wrong to do it - they have there views and we have ours there isn't a superiority thingk here you no


IMO and limited experience, Crufts is not an accurate example of dog showing. It is very much an event unlike any other, and i wouldnt base my opinion on it personally.

Crufts have evolved from being a dog show, into something quite different. What that is i havent a clue, but im not convinced some of the organisers and many of the visitors are that interested in the dogs themselves.


----------



## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

speaking on just my own personal feelings, I couldnt part with any of my dogs, even if I knew the home they were going to is the most wonderful place in the world, I have my dogs because I want their company, it would break my heart for any of them to go live with someone else to be honest.

Mo


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> but he wanted a show bred lab because of the more chilled out temperment (which they DO have)


Oh dear, perhaps someone forget to tell my trial bred labs who are asleep on the sofa next to me, and will remain so till they get to go on their walk this afternoon, that they should be more high maintenance


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> I can see what your saying but some show people have alot of dogs, so I can see why they do it so the dogs get one to one attention. Rather then live in a pack. I dont personally like it but i am open minded and try to look at it from all sides.


Thanks for getting me -thoutght i was talking to a brick wall lol. I just dont get the bit about having so many and getting rid of one like that. they choose to get those dogs for purpose and if they dont suit sell them on or give em away without a thought for the dog. Sorry i cant get my head round the fact that peeple who allegedly love dogs can just do that. if peeple have Guide dogs/service dogs that get oo old to work they can keep them in retirement as a pet not give it away as no longer useless.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tried reading all this thread but only managed about three quarters  Giving an honest opinion, despite making a big hypocrite of myself in the process, I have to come to the conclusion that, the way things stand, I couldn't condone dog shows because ultimately they fall under the jurisdiction (and are often staged by) governing bodies who condone the breeding of dogs with conformational structure that is positively harmful to their health and well being.

No, I know that won't apply to many breeds owned and shown by people here - but equally it applies to all breed shows, just the same. That's without the myriad of unseen, not structural, genetic health problems that many breeds suffer from and, as far as I can tell, aren't being seriously enough addressed by some breed clubs.

I've bred and shown pedigree cats for 26 years and the same applies to cat/cat shows/many breeds of cats which is why my comments make me a hypocrite.


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

moboyd said:


> speaking on just my own personal feelings, I couldnt part with any of my dogs, even if I knew the home they were going to is the most wonderful place in the world, I have my dogs because I want their company, it would break my heart for any of them to go live with someone else to be honest.
> 
> Mo


I am pleased you feel like that because I do too, But it does happen and I wont judge anyone, I just don't like it. I guess it depends on how seriously people take showing and their reputation as a good kennel.


----------



## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Natik said:


> i agree with u there...
> 
> I go to shows, both KC and non KC shows so i believe i am in a place to be able to comment on things I have seen with my own eyes, unlike people commenting on shows they have never been to but feel they can comment on it through hear say....
> 
> ...


I agree some people dont do it right, and they are frowned on by everyone including show people, but there again no matter what activity you are involved in even if its just walking your dogs in a park, you will come across numpties that are treating their dogs incorrectly, that dosnt mean the park is the blame or the other dog walkers are of the same calibre.

Mo


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Mollydoodle said:


> Thanks for getting me -thoutght i was talking to a brick wall lol. I just dont get the bit about having so many and getting rid of one like that. they choose to get those dogs for purpose and if they dont suit sell them on or give em away without a thought for the dog. Sorry i cant get my head round the fact that peeple who allegedly love dogs can just do that. if peeple have Guide dogs/service dogs that get oo old to work they can keep them in retirement as a pet not give it away as no longer useless.


I can understand your frustration however their are many reasons, the owner maybe getting old have health problems and cant cope with the number of dogs they have so they have to seek new homes. I think the re-homing of any animal that dpsen't do well at shows happens in any kind of show, Dog,Cat,ferret etc. Its just the way some people are


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

lol ok no more arguements children. Whats your next show and when?

Exhibitors AND spectators  x


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Starlite said:


> lol ok no more arguements children. Whats your next show and when?
> 
> Exhibitors AND spectators  x


3 Counties then Border Union :thumbup:


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> Well I have been actively involved working at crufts and it changed my views - what you are saying then is you are rite and anyone who disagrees is wrong - how sad is that? Narrowmindedness is a terrible thingk. I am not saying my views are right or wrong but they are my views and I haven't once said on here or anywhere else that showing dogs should be stopped or the peeople who do it are wrong to do it - they have there views and we have ours there isn't a superiority thingk here you no


When you say working at crufts, can you clarify in exactly what capacity you worked and how often you have worked at dog shows in this capacity?

Everyone is entitled to their views but im sorry, some of the views posted here are wrong as they are such a broad generalisation of a very popular hobby when in fact the practices they refer to are only done by a very very small majority. *That* is wrong IMO.

You and others have certainly implied that it is cruel or unfair of us to show our dogs because you think they do not enjoy and have improper conditions whilst at a show. That is, from my own personal experience of attending hundreds of show, very misinformed and incorrect. Therefore i think that is *wrong*.

Im not saying people shouldnt express an opinion, but just that you should be careful about posting things as fact if you do not know it for sure, which seems to be getting done a lot on this thread :thumbup:


----------



## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Oh dear, perhaps someone forget to tell my trial bred labs who are asleep on the sofa next to me, and will remain so till they get to go on their walk this afternoon, that they should be more high maintenance


Ditto 
Thing is with working labs if they are high mantinence and hyper and bouncy they don't make the cut or more often than not have the training of steadiness put into them, thats what its about. You cannot buy a yonug working bred dog that has drive and instinct and just expect it to be steady and relaxed, not going to happen. You have to train that into them and if he has been training labs for 50 years he should know this. Show labs may be "more relaxed" but in my eyes not as steady as a working lab as the working lab also has that drive.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Starlite said:


> lol ok no more arguements children. Whats your next show and when?
> 
> Exhibitors AND spectators  x


Camping at Blackpool for us!! :thumbup: taking the entire doggy family for a little holiday, they love it!

Giving 3 counties a miss even though its just 15 mins down the road....!


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

moboyd said:


> I agree some people dont do it right, and they are frowned on by everyone including show people, but there again no matter what activity you are involved in even if its just walking your dogs in a park, you will come across numpties that are treating their dogs incorrectly, that dosnt mean the park is the blame or the other dog walkers are of the same calibre.
> 
> Mo


totally agree...
there are bad in all walks of life but i find as soon is being mention on here that there are dogs treated unfailry and not right in the show world all hell breaks loose and u get a back slap for saying a word and my posts and my personal experience have been treated as a joke tbh thats how i felt anyway....


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Natik said:


> totally agree...
> there are bad in all walks of life but i find as soon is being mention on here that there are dogs treated unfailry and not right in the show world all hell breaks loose and u get a back slap for saying a word and my posts and my personal experience have been treated as a joke tbh thats how i felt anyway....


i am sorry you feel like that, not everyone is going to agree its fact of life, I wish we could all respect eachother we have all said valid points :thumbup:


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DKDREAM said:


> i am sorry you feel like that, not everyone is going to agree its fact of life, I wish we could all respect eachother we have all said valid points :thumbup:


i wished that too :thumbup: thanks, and true ur first sentence


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> I can understand your frustration however their are many reasons, the owner maybe getting old have health problems and cant cope with the number of dogs they have so they have to seek new homes. I think the re-homing of any animal that dpsen't do well at shows happens in any kind of show, Dog,Cat,ferret etc. Its just the way some people are


I understand that; my questions were more aimed at the show peeple who get rid because they are not suitable for showing, but I suppose I am not of the show peeples mindset and I care enuff for my dog and other animals to pass them off like that so i will bow out of this.


----------



## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> Thanks for getting me -thoutght i was talking to a brick wall lol. I just dont get the bit about having so many and getting rid of one like that. they choose to get those dogs for purpose and if they dont suit sell them on or give em away without a thought for the dog. Sorry i cant get my head round the fact that peeple who allegedly love dogs can just do that. if peeple have Guide dogs/service dogs that get oo old to work they can keep them in retirement as a pet not give it away as no longer useless.


I actually see where you are coming from, but working in a large rescue, a dog being rehomed because it isnt show quality and put in a loving home that will look after that dog wonderfully is better than some of the reasons we find dogs being rehome ie the dog dosnt match the colour of the sofa? the dog is too big now for the living room, the dog is getting older and needs medical treatment etc.

Mo


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Mmmm - think that's uncalled for 

I think Natik has made some valid points even if they don't apply to the majority. There are those who think working dogs are treated harshly and I would be quite wrong to say it doesn't happen, it does. However, the vast majority of working folk do not treat their dogs harshly and adore their dogs (even those that live in kennels) and for the most part, any harsh handling is disciplined. I know of one trainer round here who is banned from the gundog clubs because of his use of an ecollar.


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

tashi said:


> 3 Counties then Border Union :thumbup:


what dogs are you taking??



Jess2308 said:


> Camping at Blackpool for us!! :thumbup: taking the entire doggy family for a little holiday, they love it!
> 
> Giving 3 counties a miss even though its just 15 mins down the road....!


When is the Blackpool show hun?
Your so lucky to be that close to Blackpool!

I cant wait till Shorty has her first show, deff gonna be i July but will be a companion show, cannot wait tho.

Let you all know which one so if your going as well you can see my gorjus girl :thumbup:


----------



## Mollydoodle (Mar 10, 2010)

moboyd said:


> I actually see where you are coming from, but working in a large rescue, a dog being rehomed because it isnt show quality and put in a loving home that will look after that dog wonderfully is better than some of the reasons we find dogs being rehome ie the dog dosnt match the colour of the sofa? the dog is too big now for the living room, the dog is getting older and needs medical treatment etc.
> 
> Mo


wish it was a perfect world. Giving a dog up coz it don't match the sofa??? You are kidding yes? Sod that molly stays wiv me til she dies even if I have tos ell my house for her.


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Starlite said:


> what dogs are you taking??
> 
> When is the Blackpool show hun?
> Your so lucky to be that close to Blackpool!
> ...


Only taking the welsh springer to Border Union but may be handling a friends sibes as well.


----------



## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Our next show is Blackpool its only 40 odd mins down the road from us so sort of our local show lol, have all five of mine booked to show, but the two oldies who are in veteran, "may" stay at home if its too warm.

Mo


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> If I didn't know anything at all about showing, and I was reading this thread to find out about it, one thing would stand out above all others. The people who are saying that show dogs love what they do, that they live normal and fun lives, are the people _*who actually show*_ at Open shows and Championship shows. The people who are bleating about show dogs being unhappy, about show dogs being forced to parade around for hours, about show dogs being kept in crates all day, about dogs being forced hours to wait their turn, are people who have very little experience or no experience of all of showing at this level. I'd be asking myself where they came by their information, if they have so little experience.
> 
> I know who I'd believe - it would be the people who are actually doing it, the people who *KNOW *what they are talking about.


well said rep point your way. Isn't it great the summer show season is in full swing , wait.........


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Mollydoodle said:


> wish it was a perfect world. Giving a dog up coz it don't match the sofa??? You are kidding yes? Sod that molly stays wiv me til she dies even if I have tos ell my house for her.


Perfect world doesnt exist  never has and never will, still havent answered our question as to what you worked on at Crufts :thumbup:


----------



## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Mollydoodle said:


> wish it was a perfect world. Giving a dog up coz it don't match the sofa??? You are kidding yes? Sod that molly stays wiv me til she dies even if I have tos ell my house for her.


Not joking is the least, you would not beleive some of the reasons dogs are given up for the matching sofa was a true reason given on the rehoming questionair the owners had to fill in.

mo


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Mmmm - think that's uncalled for
> 
> I think Natik has made some valid points even if they don't apply to the majority. There are those who think working dogs are treated harshly and I would be quite wrong to say it doesn't happen, it does. However, the vast majority of working folk do not treat their dogs harshly and adore their dogs (even those that live in kennels) and for the most part, any harsh handling is disciplined. I know of one trainer round here who is banned from the gundog clubs because of his use of an ecollar.


Natik has made some very valid points that have been discussed at length. S/he has also made some rude and insulting comments that are beginning to annoy me now that s/he is acting the victim and whining about problems that were discussed several pages ago. If s/he cannot let it go when people have a differing view then its best not to get involved in a heated discussion as, like i said many, many pages ago, we had to agree to disagree and leave it there  Clearly Natik has been unable to do that...

I think all of us show folk have openly acknowledged that there are a small minority who put prizes before their dogs, but its not fair to tar us all with the same brush, just as its not far to call all working folk cruel to their dogs :thumbup:


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Starlite said:


> When is the Blackpool show hun?
> Your so lucky to be that close to Blackpool!
> 
> I cant wait till Shorty has her first show, deff gonna be i July but will be a companion show, cannot wait tho.
> ...


Looking forward to reading your first show report :thumbup:

Blackpool is in a couple of weeks I think, i dont have my calendar to hand though  :lol:


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Jess2308 said:


> Looking forward to reading your first show report :thumbup:
> 
> Blackpool is in a couple of weeks I think, i dont have my calendar to hand though  :lol:


25th - 27th June


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

tashi said:


> 25th - 27th June


:lol: Thanks!!

I really should know that


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Natik said:


> what is ur problem with me? Can u point me in the direction to my insulting posts? i think enough is enough from u, seriously.


I too think that it is enough, please can we be grown up about this, the best thing to do if you dont agree is just agree to disagree. This thread is just going downhill with the constant niggling from different members. If it doesnt stop then the thread will be closed as it is now going off topic


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

tashi said:


> I too think that it is enough, please can we be grown up about this, the best thing to do if you dont agree is just agree to disagree. This thread is just going downhill with the constant niggling from different members


Thank you. Well said. I had hoped we could agree to disagree and forget the differences several pages ago and will attempt to move on from the discussion again. We dont want this thread closed afterall! :thumbup:


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Starlite said:


> lol ok no more arguements children. Whats your next show and when?
> 
> Exhibitors AND spectators  x


Three Counties. never been before, first time they've had breed classes for us. Not going to Blackpool as it's nearly three hours away and I don't like the showground, it's too cramped. Ironically, it's Andrew Brace judging so maybe just as well


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Natik said:


> i wasnt insulting the dog show world at all, i am showing myself.
> 
> U seem to enjoy picking on me for some reason. I will not ignore false comments about me


use the ignore button natik, that way you cant see anything


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> use the ignore button natik, that way you cant see anything


Ooh, forgot about that, very good idea!!


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> Three Counties. never been before, first time they've had breed classes for us. Not going to Blackpool as it's nearly three hours away and I don't like the showground, it's too cramped. Ironically, it's Andrew Brace judging so maybe just as well


Know exactly what you mean! After being "judged"  by him at Blackpool last year, I'd never enter under him again!


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Know exactly what you mean! After being "judged"  by him at Blackpool last year, I'd never enter under him again!


He judged my pug a couple of years ago. Never again. One exhibitor actually said to him "im going to move my dog again, this time can you actually watch it" - good on her :lol:


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

me too he's doing roughs at 3 counties thurs no wonder we have a crap entry


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> He judged my pug a couple of years ago. Never again. One exhibitor actually said to him "im going to move my dog again, this time can you actually watch it" - good on her :lol:


Did she place?


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

moboyd said:


> I am surprised that anyone with such strong views against showing would take a position working at Crufts?
> 
> thats similar to a vegan working in a butchers shop?
> 
> Mo


Yes but the dog enjoys showing check out her profile

About Mollydoodle 
Biography 
I am Mollydoodle Smeeton and lilve in Newcastle. I am 2 years old and a Miniature Labradoodle. I have just got a computor well the human has and am new to all this stuff. You can find me on facebool too 
Location 
Newcastle 
Interests 
Walkys with other dogs and doing dogshows. love being brushed and pampered


----------



## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

tashi said:


> Yes but the dog enjoys showing check out her profile
> 
> About Mollydoodle
> Biography
> ...


:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> Did she place?


Strangely... no :lol:

But he did at least pay attention to the dogs for the other classes, think he was embarrassed  With her he actually turned back to the judges table (away from where the dog was moving!!) took a bite out of his sandwich and turned back round as she was trotting towards him


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> Strangely... no :lol:
> 
> But he did at least pay attention to the dogs for the other classes, think he was embarrassed  With her he actually turned back to the judges table (away from where the dog was moving!!) took a bite out of his sandwich and turned back round as she was trotting towards him


there's a short clip on youtube

I'd be honoured to be able to judge a class, to treat this privilege in such an offhand manner is an insult 

Mibbe try andconvince the OH about the show in Blackpool as he loves it there, then i can annoy you and you're lovely pooches :thumbup:


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

You should definately come, we always need extra handlers :lol:

I have only judged a few times as i dont particularly enjoy it, but when i did i felt so honoured to have been chosen for that show, and for those exhibitors PAYING for my opinion on their dog (i had 45 entries of pugs at an open show one time, i was amazed!!!!) that I gave each and every dog my undivided attention whilst assessing it. I have never met another judge like that particular man who feels he is above giving his time to anyone other than the "faces"....!!


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> You should definately come, we always need extra handlers :lol:


If ever pugs are on the same day as pastoral dogs and you need extra handlers, come and find us around the border collie ring - my two nieces are both experienced handlers (they've been members of the YKC since they were 6) and have handled all sorts of breeds - they'd love to help out.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

dexter said:


> me too he's doing roughs at 3 counties thurs no wonder we have a crap entry


It will be interesting to see if he's learned his lesson after his warning and his fine.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

That would be great! The pugs or basenji are what we're usually stuck with. One of my pugs is a bugger to show, he runs rings round people he doesnt know so i have to show him so when im on my own i often have a problem if the basenji and pug rings clash!


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> That would be great! The pugs or basenji are what we're usually stuck with. One of my pugs is a bugger to show, he runs rings round people he doesnt know so i have to show him so when im on my own i often have a problem if the basenji and pug rings clash!


heh heh - we often have the same problem - you can guarantee that at some stage the border collies will clash with the import register, or the YKC stuff will clash with everything else! Even when the schedule looks like it will just run on nicely, one judge whips through a class or one judge is slow and - hey presto - we need to be in three rings at the same time! And you can bet your bottom dollar that one of the rings is at the opposite corner of the field ...........


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> 2. Most show dogs are as healthy, if not healthier, than their working counterparts, and most show dogs have excellent temperaments - it takes a good temperament for a dog to stand still and allow a virtual stranger to run his/her hands all over him, including his most intimate parts. Show dogs in general really enjoy what they do - it's a day out with the family, with them at the centre of attention. When the show bag comes out our lot go mad - and one look at Gabby's poor face in the window when she realises she's not going to the show with us would be enough to convince anyone she loved showing. (She gets spoilt to bits by my OH while we are out, but even that is no consolation to her when we leave  )
> 
> 3. Breed standards are not set by either the showing fraternity or the Kennel Club. Breed standards are set by the breed clubs - and breed clubs have members who don't show, who have pets or who have working types.
> 
> 4. Breeders and exhibitors who don't want to make sure their dogs are healthy and fit for purpose, or who do not want to embrace change for the better in their breed, are a tiny minority, not the majority.


Huge apologies as I'm going to be posting and running, too much work on and my cup of tea's mashed ready to take back into my studio with me. But, I'm just wondering on what you base your assumption that show dogs are healthier than working dogs? It's been my experience that they are probably equally healthy within Labradors, but with some breeds, I would assume the working equivalents would be healthier, for example Bassetts (obvious one to pick on).

And just to reply to the OP, yes, I agree with showing, but don't like the way exaggerations can be rewarded with some breeds, and that showing seems to follow *trends* where dogs of a certain look are rewarded, which then seems to fuel the breeding towards some exaggeration. The domed heads of cockers is a good example, the american cocker spaniel is awful, and they breed for a 'plush' or domed head, which seems to be rewarded in the show ring??? It begs the question when will they stop rewarding the *plushiest* of heads, when it looks like a ball??


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Oh dear, perhaps someone forget to tell my trial bred labs who are asleep on the sofa next to me, and will remain so till they get to go on their walk this afternoon, that they should be more high maintenance


:lol: :lol:

I have to say, I've never bought into this 'theory' about working dogs being hyper and show dogs being chilled.

My eldest has the most 'working' lines in her, and is the most chilled girl ever (well until I met her daughter)

Both litters were from solid show bred sires, one litter were chilled to the point of being ridiculous - the other litter were mad as a box of frogs 

Likewise, my pup from the chilled daughter, again to a show bred sire is bonkers, as it my predominantly show bred girl - my boy is solid show bred - any more laid back and he would be horizontal.

I think there will be some breeding lines that are typically more driven, and in the wrong hands could become a problem - but from what I've seen you can get chilled and hyper dogs on both sides of the fence, as well as those bred in the middle.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Our next show is Border Union then Blackpool . Good luck anyone whos going to three counties at the weekend, hope you have a great day! I have a video of Barney crashing out a crate at an open show and running into the ring i was in with hudson :lol:. Need to try and put it up lol, the look of shock on everyones face (dogs included) is priceless. Barney doesn't do crates apparently  x 

ps. i completely agree - some breeds have been destroyed by being overly exaggerated ect. i just get peed off when people make out like its all breeds lol :lol:.


----------



## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

moboyd said:


> speaking on just my own personal feelings, I couldnt part with any of my dogs, even if I knew the home they were going to is the most wonderful place in the world, I have my dogs because I want their company, it would break my heart for any of them to go live with someone else to be honest.
> 
> Mo


My thoughts exactly


----------



## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

We have a couple of Open, and Paignton is our next champ show


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Huge apologies as I'm going to be posting and running, too much work on and my cup of tea's mashed ready to take back into my studio with me. But, I'm just wondering on what you base your assumption that show dogs are healthier than working dogs? It's been my experience that they are probably equally healthy within Labradors, but with some breeds, I would assume the working equivalents would be healthier, for example Bassetts (obvious one to pick on).


What I actually said were that show dogs were *as healthy*, if not healthier, than their working counterparts, which is not exactly the same as blindly stating they are healthier full stop. 

For this, I must admit I am basing my opinion on a knowledge of how healthy show dogs are, rather than a knowledge of how healthy working dogs are not, if that makes sense! Perhaps it would have been fairer of me to have left out the "if not healthier" bit. But what I was really trying to get across is that show dogs such as the Basset, to continue with your example, may look slightly different to the working dogs, and the breed may have a problem in general with folds of skin etc (I have to admit I don't know much about the breed, so sorry if this is not true) but that does not mean that the actual Basset Hound running around the show ring is an unhealthy dog. He will most probably be as fit and healthy as any of his working counterparts. And this is because the Basset hound in the show ring will have had an owner who has made sure it is healthy, with no skin problems etc etc. Hence my phrase "show dogs are as healthy as thier working counterparts". (Yes, it would definitely have been fairer to leave out the "if not healthier" bit!)


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> What I actually said were that show dogs were *as healthy*, if not healthier, than their working counterparts, which is not exactly the same as blindly stating they are healthier full stop.
> 
> For this, I must admit I am basing my opinion on a knowledge of how healthy show dogs are, rather than a knowledge of how healthy working dogs are not, if that makes sense! Perhaps it would have been fairer of me to have left out the "if not healthier" bit. But what I was really trying to get across is that show dogs such as the Basset, to continue with your example, may look slightly different to the working dogs, and the breed may have a problem in general with folds of skin etc (I have to admit I don't know much about the breed, so sorry if this is not true) but that does not mean that the actual Basset Hound running around the show ring is an unhealthy dog. He will most probably be as fit and healthy as any of his working counterparts. And this is because the Basset hound in the show ring will have had an owner who has made sure it is healthy, with no skin problems etc etc. Hence my phrase "show dogs are as healthy as thier working counterparts". (Yes, it would definitely have been fairer to leave out the "if not healthier" bit!)


It's definitely the "if not healthier" bit that I think didn't seem to make sense to me at first glance, many show/working breeds are as healthy as each other, but I wouldn't like to say either was healthier than the other  I would however, have to say that because of the way that pet dogs are bred, that these might be prone to problems caused by conformation and lack of forethought when breeding, people who breed with no thought of showing or working, would be more likely *I think* to possibly produce a problem.

I agree, overall, the majority of breeds I know about, seem to be as healthy from either a show or working perspective, but have to disagree about the bassetts, the folds of skin have reached such an exaggeration, it not only makes it difficult for some dogs to see, giving them eye problems, as well as the ulcers that come with too many folds of skin. But, the working bassetts are a lighter boned dog, with slightly longer legs, the *dwarfism* or appearance of dwarfism in the show type cannot be healthy for any breeder to breed towards I wouldn't have thought? But, that's not to say that the dogs you see going round the show ring don't lead healthy lives for the most part, just that because of the way they've been bred, towards these exaggerations, they are prone to the risks associated with them, ie skin/eye problems and joint problems, something their working counterparts wouldn't be as prone towards, if that makes sense??

I'm sure there are other breeds that have probably suffered exaggeration where you could stick a finger on a *problem* and say that has been caused, or exacerbated, by the trends of showing, but I hope with the new way the KC and breed clubs seem to be looking at breed standards, that only good healthy examples will be rewarded, encouraging breeding towards only healthy conformation, and away from any exaggerations.

Apols as posting and running again, but a really interesting debate.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I would however, have to say that because of the way that pet dogs are bred, that these might be prone to problems caused by conformation and lack of forethought when breeding, people who breed with no thought of showing or working, would be more likely *I think* to possibly produce a problem.


Good point! I think you are probably right. There will be people around who breed sensibly just for pet dogs, but I'm guessing the majority of breeders who breed with neither showing nor working in mind will be either bybs or puppy farmers with an eye to the quick profit rather than the health of the dog.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I agree, overall, the majority of breeds I know about, seem to be as healthy from either a show or working perspective, but have to disagree about the bassetts, the folds of skin have reached such an exaggeration, it not only makes it difficult for some dogs to see, giving them eye problems, as well as the ulcers that come with too many folds of skin. But, the working bassetts are a lighter boned dog, with slightly longer legs, the *dwarfism* or appearance of dwarfism in the show type cannot be healthy for any breeder to breed towards I wouldn't have thought? But, that's not to say that the dogs you see going round the show ring don't lead healthy lives for the most part, just that because of the way they've been bred, towards these exaggerations, they are prone to the risks associated with them, ie skin/eye problems and joint problems, something their working counterparts wouldn't be as prone towards, if that makes sense??


Yes, it makes sense - and I think we're both saying the same thing but in a slightly different way. There may be problems inherent in the show breed, problems which need resolving, but that does not mean the actual dog running around the ring is suffering because of those problems.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sure there are other breeds that have probably suffered exaggeration where you could stick a finger on a *problem* and say that has been caused, or exacerbated, by the trends of showing, but I hope with the new way the KC and breed clubs seem to be looking at breed standards, that only good healthy examples will be rewarded, encouraging breeding towards only healthy conformation, and away from any exaggerations.
> 
> Apols as posting and running again, but a really interesting debate.


It's definitely taken a good step forward - let's hope the good work continues.


----------



## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

tashi said:


> Can I ask where or what you worked for at Crufts - perhaps it will give us more of an idea as to what you would have seen


I wondered that too...........................................................

still waiting for the answer.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

pickle said:


> I wondered that too...........................................................
> 
> still waiting for the answer.


Unfortunately the poster has refused to answer that because apparently I will twist her words about it :confused1: I too am interested to know though.


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

pickle said:


> I wondered that too...........................................................
> 
> still waiting for the answer.





Jess2308 said:


> Unfortunately the poster has refused to answer that because apparently I will twist her words about it :confused1: I too am interested to know though.


Wont find out now girls she is gone  Think it was a 'white one' as she chose to ignore it


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

tashi said:


> Wont find out now girls she is gone  Think it was a 'white one' as she chose to ignore it


Lol... I've been watching this since my posts... I'm thinking the same.  There seemed to be a lot of back pedalling done.


----------



## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

It says "banned" under her username now??????


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Probably because she was provoking everyone


----------



## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

Possbily a bit late in joining this! But I agree with showing dogs. Blu loved ringcraft until he got hurt then also hurt a few times at shows. People kept telling me not to give up even though he was scared of judges. Now I know people will think 'that's cruel showing a dog that doesn't like humans' but we didn't go to shows for a few weeks and he got even worse. Showing has actually helped him get over his fear of humans and now he loves being in the ring and all the attention. When he sees me getting my suit out in the morning and the bag packed he runs around the house crying and winding Cheeko up because he knows he is going to a show and can't wait to go! All I ever wanted from showing was to qualify for Crufts because I've never been before and just really want to go more so with a dog. So we will be there next year :thumbup:


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> All I ever wanted from showing was to qualify for Crufts because I've never been before and just really want to go more so with a dog. So we will be there next year :thumbup:


That's lovely that Blu used showing to get over his problems 

Have you qualified for Crufts yet?


----------



## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

Verbatim said:


> That's lovely that Blu used showing to get over his problems
> 
> Have you qualified for Crufts yet?


Qualified twice last month  Not going to many Ch shows this year because it costs a fortune plus I enjoy open shows more if I'm honest. Nice day out locally without all the driving.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> *Qualified twice last month*  Not going to many Ch shows this year because it costs a fortune plus I enjoy open shows more if I'm honest. Nice day out locally without all the driving.


Congrats!! :thumbup:


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I have to say i LOVE both Jess's and Swarthy's Labs!! :thumbup: Both of theirs look amazing!

But one thing that seems to p!ss me off more than anything! Is ''the breed standard'' who the hell said they could decide what our dog breeds look like?

Ok its fine if they actually stuck to the 'original standard' but they change them! And some breeds have been ruined by them :frown:

And although i might be shot down for this..........this is why a lot of people dislike showing (not aimed at anyone on here, my own personal friends etc) because they link the two. The KC/Breed clubs have changed some breeds so much that they are NOTHING like the ''original'' and way too many of them are in dire states :frown: :frown:

I would have any issue if the dogs were kept as natural as possible but unfortunately some breeds are far far from that.........thats what p!sses a lot people! 

And looking back on showing (going donkeys years back) it stems from there. Its a fact. :frown:


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> Qualified twice last month  Not going to many Ch shows this year because it costs a fortune plus I enjoy open shows more if I'm honest. Nice day out locally without all the driving.


wow, congrats! Hope all goes well for you 

So, just out of interest, what's different about Ch shows and Open shows? Are the Opens just a more relaxed atmosphere or are things done differently?

I'd really like to get into showing my own dogs in the future (Great Danes & Japanese Spitz hopefully!) so i'm just starting to look into showing and get my head around it a bit more now cos tbh I don't really understand quite how they work


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I have to say i LOVE both Jess's and Swarthy's Labs!! :thumbup: Both of theirs look amazing!
> 
> But one thing that seems to p!ss me off more than anything! Is ''the breed standard'' who the hell said they could decide what our dog breeds look like?
> 
> ...


Its like a fashion thing, one judge likes this the other doesnt, I agree why not stick to one standard? and preferably a heathly standard for all breeds!


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> Its like a fashion thing, one judge likes this the other doesnt, I agree why not stick to one standard? and preferably a heathly standard for all breeds!


i guess each judge looks for different quality's


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> I have to say i LOVE both Jess's and Swarthy's Labs!! :thumbup: Both of theirs look amazing!


Thank you  so do I, but then I may be just a touch biased  I am not under any illusions of their limitations in the showring, it doesn't mean we can't have some fun 



Verbatim said:


> So, just out of interest, what's different about Ch shows and Open shows? Are the Opens just a more relaxed atmosphere or are things done differently?


You want chapter and verse?

Championship shows are, to start with, much more expensive than Open shows to enter 

On the upsite, a 1st to 3rd in certain classes, qualifies your dog for Crufts.

In Limit and Open classes, a 1st to 3rd qualifies your dog for Crufts for life.

NB: This covers Labs - the criteria on which placings qualify for Crufs can vary dependent on which stud book band your dog falls into.

In addition, if your dog is good enough to win it's class, it can then go into the challenge for the Challenge Certificate. A dog needs three of these under three different judges to be made up to a Show Champion (Champion in some breeds) - in order for dogs in Stud band E to be made up to a full champion they have to complete their Show dog Working Certificate.

The large majority of UK Championship shows are benched - although some of the breed clubs do seem to be moving away from benching.

Some breeds at Championship shows do not yet have CC's because of their numbers, and entry fees are therefore lower (although not massively)

================================

Open shows are MUCH cheaper to enter - I can take four of mine to an Open show for the same price as entering one at Championship level.

On the downside, you need to get Best in Show, Reserve Best in Show or Best puppy in show to qualify for Crufts - NO mean feat, this could mean beating over 1,000 dogs on the day.

At Premier Open shows, there are some breeds where the Best of Breed winner will automatically qualify for Crufts - that's how I qualified my yellow girl last year.

================================

In addition, not all, but a large majority will be over the spring and summer months - needing you to take out a second mortgage to cover all the entry fees and travelling, whereas Open shows tend to be all year round with heavy concentrations in the autumn and very early spring.

==============

In addition to the above, there are also Limit shows, which are for club members only - entry fees are usually very low - and they tend to be a really nice day out for dogs and owners 

There are also Companion shows, where you can just turn up on the day, entry fees are low and per class, and they tend to have pedigree and Novelty classes, dogs don't have to be KC registered, and if they have had conformationally differing surgery (usually because of illness) - they won't need the permission to show that they won't get for any higher level shows.

A LOT of established exhibitors frequent the Limit and Companion shows to take their pups and often their older dogs for a day out.



DKDREAM said:


> i guess each judge looks for different quality's


Judges will have preferences, and remember, when judging say, for example, a labrador, there are 50 odd conformational points they should adhere to - very few dogs are wholly perfect, so this will always bring subjectivity into judging.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

If you look at the breed standard for any given dog, I'm guessing there are several aspects that can't be judged for within a show ring? 

Within Labs, there's the keen love of water for example. 

Showing, as I understand it, was started, by people who worked their dogs, as a way of advertising or selling top dogs that had achieved good working ability. I'd be happy to be corrected on that one.

So, the top achieving competetive/working dogs, were pitted against each other. However, what we have now within showing, is the top achieving show dogs, ie what is perceived to be the best dog against the breed standard, which is a very different thing. 

I think if the only outlet for breeding dogs were showing, it would be an unhealthy and biased perspective. Not because showing on it's own is a bad thing, but because some people are out to win regardless, and they would breed dogs that are unhealthy simply to be placed highly in the show ring, depending on the breed, it has happened, and will (unfortunately) continue to happen. 

Which leads me back to my earlier statement, in that it can only be (I hope) a good thing, that the KC has made a push for a fitter dog.


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> i guess each judge looks for different quality's


Yes they do ... but theres a breed standard, so why dont they stick to it?


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Kinjilabs said:


> Yes they do ... but theres a breed standard, so why dont they stick to it?


Each judge assesses the dogs according to *their interpretation* of the breed standard. For different people this may mean different things. Certainly when im judging i have an ideal template if you like, of what i believe the perfect specimen of that breed looks like. Not everyone will have the same template in their mind.

Some examples from the lab standard:

"General Appearance
Strongly built, short-coupled, very active; broad in skull; broad and deep through chest and ribs; broad and strong over loins and hindquarters."

How strongly built is strongly built? Does that mean heavy on shorter, chunkier legs, or lighter on taller legs to give an impression of a strongly built dog? Broad in skull.. How broad? How deep through chest and ribs?

"Hindquarters
Well developed, not sloping to tail; well turned stifle. Hocks well let down, cowhocks highly undesirable."

Well turned stifle, well let down hocks, again, doesnt give too much info, thats down to each persons interpretation

Any breed standard has many of the same wording which leaves a lot down to individual interpretation :thumbup:

And the breed standard even says they shouldnt be fat!!

"Body
Chest of good width and depth, with well sprung barrel ribs - this effect not to be produced by carrying excessive weight. Level topline. Loins wide, short-coupled and strong."


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> Each judge assesses the dogs according to *their interpretation* of the breed standard. For different people this may mean different things. Certainly when im judging i have an ideal template if you like, of what i believe the perfect specimen of that breed looks like. Not everyone will have the same template in their mind.
> 
> Some examples from the lab standard:
> 
> ...


Judged Labs myself, but try to stay within the standard, ok some like heavy heads.. not me, some like short legs etc, but shoudnt we all stay within the standard?
Suppose we are never going to agree on this thread, not that I disagree with you, it all comes down to personal preference


----------



## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

Verbatim said:


> wow, congrats! Hope all goes well for you
> 
> So, just out of interest, what's different about Ch shows and Open shows? Are the Opens just a more relaxed atmosphere or are things done differently?
> 
> I'd really like to get into showing my own dogs in the future (Great Danes & Japanese Spitz hopefully!) so i'm just starting to look into showing and get my head around it a bit more now cos tbh I don't really understand quite how they work


They are alot smaller and less people. Usualy not too far from where you live either but I have travelled 3 hours for one because it was my friends pups first show. In the end she couldn't go and Blu ended up getting a puppy group placing 

There is limit shows aswell and they are smaller but you need to be a member to enter. Last one I went to there was only 25 dogs max!


----------



## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Kinjilabs said:


> Yes they do ... but theres a breed standard, so why dont they stick to it?


probably its just whats the best in their mind on the day wins. i guess all have faults, It will be really hard to get a dog that is perfect. Maybe you could say the breed standard is too strict, I mean no white aloud on a papillons ear whats that all about


----------



## dobermum (Apr 27, 2010)

Verbatim said:


> ...Following on from another thread, I thought it could make an interesting discussion
> 
> So, do you agree with showing dogs, and if not - what don't you like about it?
> 
> Please remember that this a discussion and everyone is entitled to their opinion whether you agree with it or not


Hi!
Personally, it's not for me, and I don't agree with horseracing either or fox hunting or badger baiting or anything like that.

Each to their own.

My animals are my beloved pets/children and long long may that continue.
They are praised and loved without needing to get any awards, ribbons, trophies or money for doing what they do. They are just amazing in their own right.

D x


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> They are alot smaller and less people. Usualy not too far from where you live either but I have travelled 3 hours for one because it was my friends pups first show. In the end she couldn't go and Blu ended up getting a puppy group placing
> 
> There is limit shows aswell and they are smaller but you need to be a member to enter. Last one I went to there was only 25 dogs max!





swarthy said:


> You want chapter and verse?
> 
> Championship shows are, to start with, much more expensive than Open shows to enter
> 
> ...


thankyou for that, it's made quite a lot of things much clearer to me pmsl, I was always confused by the CC's and the Limit shows until now :thumbup:

I've only ever done one show and it was a Companion show last monday with my little blind terrier, she won 1st place for Best Rescue Dog  hopefully it's a sign of things to come in the future pmsl :thumbup:


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

dobermum said:


> My animals are my beloved pets/children and long long may that continue.
> They are praised and loved without needing to get any awards, ribbons, trophies or money for doing what they do. They are just amazing in their own right.
> 
> D x


I think that's a lovely way of putting it, I wish some of the other 'anti show' people had worded their posts like that instead of ripping into the people who do show!

Although I don't think dog showing can be categorised with the likes of badger baiting and fox hunting, they are very cruel and bloodthirsty and i'd hope to god that no kind of dog show is like that :lol:


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

All i can say if i were a judge many dogs would never even get through to 'finals' 

In the show world...........thank goodness i am not a judge! :lol:


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

dobermum said:


> Hi!
> Personally, it's not for me, and I don't agree with horseracing either or fox hunting or badger baiting or anything like that.
> 
> Each to their own.
> ...


Completely agree! I take the best dog home and i have NEVER shown! :lol:

Excellent post! Rep for that!


----------



## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Spellweaver said:


> If you are wondering whether or not dogs enjoy showing, then the answer is a big resounding YES. Given a choice of any activity whatsoever, my oldest Bergamasco would prefer to be in the show ring than doing anything else. If you actually went to a show, instead of just assuming you know all about them from what you've read in the less salubrious media, you would be able to see for yourself the happy, healthy dogs enjoying what they do.
> 
> Dogs are not poked and pulled around by someone waving a clip board. Dogs are moved in the ring by the owner or handler. The judge goes over them gently - any judge who poked a dog would soon be complained about and warned and fined by the Kennel Club. Again, if you actually went to some shows you would see this for yoruself.
> 
> ...


Wow, you have a dog that talks

To be honest it is the kind of comment I would expect from you.

I was offering my opinion which I think we are all entitled to.


----------



## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Completely agree! I take the best dog home and i have NEVER shown! :lol:
> 
> Excellent post! Rep for that!


It's funny how you should say that - people who show say it all the time, especially when we first started .. it was always 'remember you ALWAYS take the best dog home no matter what!'.  x


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Kinjilabs said:


> Judged Labs myself, but try to stay within the standard, ok some like heavy heads.. not me, some like short legs etc, but shoudnt we all stay within the standard?
> Suppose we are never going to agree on this thread, not that I disagree with you, it all comes down to personal preference


But what is the definitive measurement of long or short legs and heavy or snipey heads?? The breed standard doesnt give us any measurements for the majority of breeds, hence why different judges will put up different dogs.

I personally dont like the short legged labs either and try to breed mine with a good length of leg, but if another judge puts up a slightly shorter legged one (cant say i've ever seen over exaggerated short legs in the ring in recent years) then I assume that it is their template of a correct dog, or the dog make up for that fault with its other outstanding qualities


----------



## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

Excellent post explaining the showing system Swarthy,it. I could not have done that so well or clearly. Rep for it coming your way.:thumbup:
However to clarify one thing, the stud book number (qualifying your dog for life) varies for different breeds. For example in* Limit* my breed only gets their stud book number for *1st *place. It depends which band the breed is in. I am aware you will know that but just wanted to explain for the sake of the query.

Edited to add: Sorry not allowed give you any rep, given you too much already apparently, have to spread the "love" a bit more first!!!!!!!


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

pickle said:


> Excellent post explaining the showing system Swarthy,it. I could not have done that so well or clearly. Rep for it coming your way.:thumbup:
> However to clarify one thing, the stud book number (qualifying your dog for life) varies for different breeds. For example in* Limit* my breed only gets their stud book number for *1st *place. It depends which band the breed is in. I am aware you will know that but just wanted to explain for the sake of the query.


I've updated my post accordingly - sorry


----------



## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

pickle said:


> Excellent post explaining the showing system Swarthy,it. I could not have done that so well or clearly. Rep for it coming your way.:thumbup:
> However to clarify one thing, the stud book number (qualifying your dog for life) varies for different breeds. For example in* Limit* my breed only gets their stud book number for *1st *place. It depends which band the breed is in. I am aware you will know that but just wanted to explain for the sake of the query.
> 
> Edited to add: Sorry not allowed give you any rep, given you too much already apparently, have to spread the "love" a bit more first!!!!!!!


In the breeds that I show the stud book number can be gained firstly in whippets 1st, 2ndor 3rd in open or limit but in the other breed I show greyhounds only first in open the CC and the RCC winner gain their stud book number.


----------



## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

No wonder all the folk new to showing get confuddled eh?:


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

pickle said:


> No wonder all the folk new to showing get confuddled eh?:


:lol: :lol: tell me - then there's the class eligibility and relevant dates )particularly poignant for Maiden and Novice) - the effect that different show levels have on class eligibility, and then whether a dog can withdraw from a class - it's surprising how many people still think a dog can withdraw from a breed class, and then still go in for the challenge.


----------



## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

dobermum said:


> Hi!
> Personally, it's not for me, and I don't agree with horseracing either or fox hunting or badger baiting or anything like that.
> 
> Each to their own.
> ...


My dogs or as it is now dog are /were my pets/ children and were shown, not loved any the less for it, and they also loved their days out showing.


----------



## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

*Dobermum*:

How do you compare dog showing to fox hunting or badger baiting? Even horse racing has an element of risk to the horse and rider.


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Also, some breeds do not get stud book numbers, like my DDB, so unfortunately can't qualify for life in the UK despite a high limit or open placing.


----------



## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> Also, some breeds do not get stud book numbers, like my DDB, so unfortunately can't qualify for life in the UK despite a high limit or open placing.


Going by the entry numbers of DDB I don't think it will be long before you do!


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

pickle said:


> Going by the entry numbers of DDB I don't think it will be long before you do!


More classes would be good too. We're lucky if we have 5 per sex at the moment. For some reason East of England has three mixed sex classes this year


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> Also, some breeds do not get stud book numbers, like my DDB, so unfortunately can't qualify for life in the UK despite a high limit or open placing.


That's surprising! I'd have thought all breeds would get the chance to gain their stud book numbers, not very fair on those who don't!


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

We don't have CC's either so you can't make up UK Champions. I think these things take time. The DDB has only had an official breed standard since the beginning of 2008, prior to that they were on the import register, which meant they had an interim standard and did not have breed classes at shows just AVNSC. Since 2008 we've had breed classes and they've been alllowed to be exhibited at Crufts from 2009 onwards.


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Verbatim said:


> That's surprising! I'd have thought all breeds would get the chance to gain their stud book numbers, not very fair on those who don't!


Studbook numbers are only available to those breeds who are awarded CC's (correct me if im wrong on that of course people!!) and therefore it is something for breeders of the newer breeds with KC recognition to aim for. CC's are only awarded to breeds that meet a certain criteria not just in entries at the shows, but also in quality and health across the breed so it requires breeders to really strive to breed the best specimens possible if they wish to have CC status 

I personally think breeders of breeds like DDB's are not far from achieving this. The breed has improved in quality immensly over the last few years, mostly due to the fantastic quality dogs that have been imported to the UK. The breeders have really put a lot of time and effort into improving their lines :thumbup:


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> I personally think breeders of breeds like DDB's are not far from achieving this. The breed has improved in quality immensly over the last few years, mostly due to the fantastic quality dogs that have been imported to the UK. The breeders have really put a lot of time and effort into improving their lines :thumbup:


I agree. I can remember when they first started to be shown in the import register - as a breed they were all over the place (not surprising when they were just starting out) - long legs, short legs, straight legs, bowed legs, broad chests, thin chests, square heads, wedge shaped heads, straight backs, dipped backs, and all colours of brown from lightest beige to almost chocolate. But now when you watch them in the ring you can see the standard has evened out and there are some superb quality dogs and bitches being bred and shown now. Well done you DDB breeders - surely it won't be long before you're up to CC status.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Nina said:


> Wow, you have a dog that talks
> 
> To be honest it is the kind of comment I would expect from you.
> 
> I was offering my opinion which I think we are all entitled to.


  

You said you had never had anything to do with showing and asked



Nina said:


> I often wonder however, given the choice, if dogs would really wish to parade around a show ring, waiting hours for their turn only to be poked and pulled around by someone waving a clip board


I wrote you a very nice reply, explaining that dogs were not treated like that at shows, that dogs were happy when they were showing, and explained that if you went to a show you would be able to see for yourself. I even included anecdotes about my own dogs to help explain. And then you reply like this?

How incredibly rude of you.


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> We don't have CC's either so you can't make up UK Champions. I think these things take time. The DDB has only had an official breed standard since the beginning of 2008, prior to that they were on the import register, which meant they had an interim standard and did not have breed classes at shows just AVNSC. Since 2008 we've had breed classes and they've been alllowed to be exhibited at Crufts from 2009 onwards.


Well, I never knew they were that new to the show world!

They seem to have been popular for quite a long time, when did they first come over here?

ya learn something new every day


----------



## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I agree. I can remember when they first started to be shown in the import register - as a breed they were all over the place (not surprising when they were just starting out) - long legs, short legs, straight legs, bowed legs, broad chests, thin chests, square heads, wedge shaped heads, straight backs, dipped backs, and all colours of brown from lightest beige to almost chocolate. But now when you watch them in the ring you can see the standard has evened out and there are some superb quality dogs and bitches being bred and shown now. Well done you DDB breeders - surely it won't be long before you're up to CC status.


These breeders are a credit to the dog showing world and will surely ensure a healthy future for their breed. There are a lot that could learn from them....


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Verbatim said:


> Well, I never knew they were that new to the show world!
> 
> They seem to have been popular for quite a long time, when did they first come over here?
> 
> ya learn something new every day


1895, but they would have vanished after that and don't start reappearing until the late 20th century. They went onto the import register in 2001


----------

