# The Dry Dog Food Index



## SixStar

New updated version of the Index can be found here - http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/255727-updated-dry-dog-food-index.html


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## Goblin

Thanks for taking the time and effort to do this. Will bookmark it.


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## henry

That's very helpful and interesting to see the feeding costs. Thanks for doing that - sure it'll help a lot of people. Claire


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## GoldenShadow

Brilliant, well done 

On a side note, bit worrying how many reds there are


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## cinnamontoast

This is fabulous! Can it be made into a sticky?


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## toryb

Ooh great!


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## JoJo74

I've often thought something like this would be so handy. Thanks for taking the time to do it.


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## Staffybull

Very well done,a lot of time and effort involved!

I like the colour ratings for foods,and agree with you on most"if not all"of the foods involved,there are others,but the list is endless!

This will benefit some that are unsure of what foods to choose for their dog,regarding cereals,feeding costs etc!

I think this is what the forum needs!

A good rating system,based on types of foods,including nutritional value,prices and experiences on feeding!


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## babycham2002

Wow thats fantastic, thanks for doing that 
:smile5:


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## Manoy Moneelil

Well done for putting all this data together - but do you not think that the "Suggested daily amount" is meaningless - why not simply quote price per Kilo ?

That and the percentage of the main ingredients allows you compare the brands.

If you seek a 35% meat content food for £1 /Kg buy supermarket value sausages. (A third of the price of many of the biscuits.)

Looking at that list, many contain the lovely phrase meat meal and animal by-products and by-product derivatives.

A link to one of the many EU laws that define Animal By-Products.



> *Regulation (EC) No 1069/2009 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 21 October 2009 laying down health rules as regards animal by-products and derived products not intended for human consumption and repealing Regulation (EC) No 1774/2002 (Animal by-products Regulation)
> *
> Article 14
> 
> Disposal and use of Category 3 material
> 
> Category 3 material shall be:
> 
> (iii) for the manufacturing of pet food, to be placed on the market in accordance with Article 35


Hmmmmmmmm tasty Category Three by-products hmy:

Baked dried blood and day old male chicks (inc feathers)


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## SixStar

I'm glad people think it will be useful  Do you think there are any other brands that I should include? I couldn't think of any others! Well, apart from CJS, I'll add that tomorrow.



Manoy Moneelil said:


> Well done for putting all this data together - but do you not think that the "Suggested daily amount" is meaningless - why not simply quote price per Kilo ?
> 
> That and the percentage of the main ingredients allows you compare the brands.
> 
> If you seek a 35% meat content food for £1 /Kg buy supermarket value sausages. (A third of the price of many of the biscuits.)
> 
> Looking at that list, many contain the lovely phrase meat meal and animal by-products and by-product derivatives.
> 
> A link to one of the many EU laws that define Animal By-Products.
> 
> Hmmmmmmmm tasty Category Three by-products hmy:
> 
> Baked dried blood and day old male chicks (inc feathers)


No, I don't think it was meaningless including the daily feeding suggestion. Feeding requirements vary immensely between brands, so it's useful to know roughly how much is going to need to be fed everyday - some of the cheap brands require loads more to be fed in comparison with the better brands, which cancels out some peoples argument that rubbish food is all they can afford, because sometimes you actually end up feeding more of it - thus spending more than you would if using a good diet.

What's the price of supermarket sausages got to do with anything?  All these foods are complete diets, sausages aren't, and they definately aren't something I'd be feeding my dogs regularly at all - far too much fat and spices. Besides - I'd hazard a guess that dog food ingredients were pretty much on par with cheap sausages 

Nothing wrong with meat meal, it's just fresh meat that's had it's water content removed. I quite agree with you regarding the nastiness of the animal by products/derivatives - that's why the foods containing them are not recommended.

Im guessing youre a raw feeder? I am too. A lot of people arent though and theres nothing wrong with that, hence this list


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## Staffybull

There are loads of dry foods,"2 many to mention"!

I did not know that you fed raw,well done to you for thinking of others:thumbup:very considerate!


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## LeeM018

Brilliant thread. I'm a big fan of the equivalent cat food threads and it's good to see a dog version. It will no doubt become a valuable resource - hope it gets 'stickied' soon. 

Good effort SixStar


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## portiaa

Thanks for making this SixStar, it's really helped! 

I hope it's stickied! (if that's even a word? )


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## Kivasmum

Great list  and nice to see ww is yellow as that's what I feed kiva. I think the daily feeding prices are a great idea, for instance, its interesting to see that it actually works out cheaper to feed ww instead of bakers! I must say though, some of the prices for the green ones are a little extortionate (sp?) I used to feed my last gsd Tara on harringtons, and although you have it in red, compared to all the other brands available on the asda shelves, harringtons ingredients didn't look anywhere near as bad!


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## Bellaboo1

A very good idea, especially for newbies, well done to you for having the initiative to do it. Must have taken up a lot of your time, and especially nice considering that you feed raw yourself, nice not to be lectured for a change . Thanks


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## emsky

Just switched back to the Burgess Supadog Sensitive which has 26% lamb meal, 26% rice, shocked at the beef one as Supadog was recommended by a Dobermann rescue site as a better brand. Think i will be switching again now, thanks to your information are you going to keep adding to it? Would be good to have more Good and Medium quality food to compare.


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## Paganman

SixStar said:


> I'm glad people think it will be useful  Do you think there are any other brands that I should include? I couldn't think of any others! Well, apart from CJS, I'll add that tomorrow.


How about Fishmongers and vitalin?


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## Bellaboo1

Paganman said:


> How about Fishmongers and vitalin?


I had heard Fishmongers had been discontinued ?


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## Louloulala

Thanks for this, I was going to post today about complete foods asking which one people consider the best and best value. I don't have to now as you have answered all the questions I had  So thanks. Great thread.


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## SixStar

Paganman said:


> How about Fishmongers and vitalin?


Vitalin is already there - not bothering with Fishmongers because it's being discontinued.

Have a list of about 10 more foods that I'll be adding, and I wanted to include some of the good ones from Zooplus too, so will get it all sorted and add some more to the list over the weekend.


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## Martyn1965

I would like to say thankyou, I have been back and for pet shops reading ingredients and getting nowhere. At the moment I buy the reduced meat and fish in supermarkets and mix that in hoping I am doing the right thing.


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## SixStar

I've just gone to add the listings of about 12 more foods, but I can't edit my original post and add them to the rest of the listings because it's too many words  Will wait and ask a mod if the posts can be re-arranged, and I'll split the listings into two posts at the start of the thread instead of one huge long one.

I don't know who the mods are, so if there are any of you out there - is that possible?


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## Amy-manycats

I just wanted to say thanks for the time and effort put into this. I am also a raw feeder but to have all of the info in one place where I can direct people (from another forum :blush2: ) is fab.

Can I add a suggestion, perhaps there could be a little overview of which ingredients over all are considered rubbish and why some cereals are more acceptable than others (ie rice) I don't feel I am fully knowledgable to post that. But WHY you should try to feed better food may also help some people justify the extra expense in some cases.

Just a thought. What you have done is fab though.


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## Staffybull

SixStar said:


> I've just gone to add the listings of about 12 more foods, but I can't edit my original post and add them to the rest of the listings because it's too many words  Will wait and ask a mod if the posts can be re-arranged, and I'll split the listings into two posts at the start of the thread instead of one huge long one.
> 
> I don't know who the mods are, so if there are any of you out there - is that possible?


Got an idea!
Do you think it may be better to list all foods that you know,starting from good to bad,with a link direct to the ingredients list etc,and also a star rating system against each food listed!
I hope you know what i am trying to suggest"sometimes i dont know what im trying to say"lol.
Tell me to shut up if you want!


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## SixStar

Staffybull said:


> Got an idea!
> Do you think it may be better to list all foods that you know,starting from good to bad,with a link direct to the ingredients list etc,and also a star rating system against each food listed!
> I hope you know what i am trying to suggest"sometimes i dont know what im trying to say"lol.
> Tell me to shut up if you want!


I think I get what you mean! It would be hard to list them in order from good to bad, as lots of them are so similar, but will have a think about it. I liked the idea of having all the ingredients printed here rather than links to other sites, think it's easier to compare them this way?


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## Staffybull

SixStar said:


> I think I get what you mean! It would be hard to list them in order from good to bad, as lots of them are so similar, but will have a think about it. I liked the idea of having all the ingredients printed here rather than links to other sites, think it's easier to compare them this way?


Ye your right in keeping all the ingredients here,my ideas are usually crap!

I was more thinking of the amount of space the listings would need.

Your idea is great,i hope it gets made a sticky!


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## DAVIDnCASS

Brilliant, you have certainly put plenty of time and effort into this very handy guide.

Although I feed raw now, this would have been so helpful before my dogs raw diet. I'm sure your time towards this will be hugely appreciated by other PF members too!


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## Mum2Heidi

I think you've done an excellent job. It must have taken you a lot of time and trouble to get there.

It's v straight forward easy to compare list that will be a great help to anyone trying to make that painstaking "which one" decision.

Well done - rep to you

Hope the mods soon pop up to help you.


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## swarthy

It must have taken you a little while to put that together - the only problem is (sorry) it is flawed because you've taken certain variations of a manufacturer and ommitted others - which could, in turn, unfairly undermine a company.

Such opinions are predominantly subjective; the only true reflection of any dog food is how well a dog does, or doesn't do on it and this varies enormously across brands and types therein (not to mention breeds and individual sensitivities in dogs to various ingredients).

Barking Heads for example, do a Salmon and Potato version containing a minimum of 45% salmon, so do Simpsons-Premium.

*Simpsons Premium*
Salmon (min 45% - Fresh Salmon (min 29%) Salmon Meal (min 16%), Potato (min 32%), Sunflower Oil, Beet Pulp, Dried Egg, Brewers Yeast, Salmon Digest, Salmon Oil, Linseeds, Minerals, Vitamins, Yucca Extract, Cranberries, Nucleotides, Mannanoligosaccharides (MOS), Fructooligosaccharides (FOS), Glucosamine, MSM, Chondroitin.

Or their chicken and potato

*Ingredients*:

Chicken (min 45% - Chicken Meal (min 21%) Fresh Chicken (min 20%) Chicken Fat (min 4%), Potato (min 26%), Beet Pulp, Brewers Yeast, Chicken Digest, Dried Egg, Salmon Oil, Minerals, Linseeds, Vitamins, Yucca Extract, Cranberries, Nucleotides, Mannanoligosaccharides (MOS), Fructooligosaccharides (FOS), Glucosamine, MSM, Chondroitin.

*Barking Heads*

*Ingredients*: 
Fresh Scottish Salmon (min 26%), Potato (min 26%), Ground Oats, Dried Salmon, (min 15%), Potato Starch, Rapeseed Oil, Salmon Oil, Minerals, Dried Tomato, Natural Seaweed, Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, Vitamins.

==========================================

There are so many variations of foods, and not every dog responds well to the same one - I know of dogs who can't touch Orijen because of allergies to some (or even all) of the ingredients.

I used Chappie dried for a period of time; 4 of my gang never looked better - and I know of some breeds where Chappie is sometimes heralded as the food of choice - in dogs being shown and worked into their dotage.

---------------------------------------------

Dogs are not designed to eat grains, and in an ideal world would be fed a meat diet - sadly, we don't live in an ideal world.

As an online accessibility specialist, it may also help to write the colour of each food alongside it - otherwise, there will be a group of people unable to derive any benefit from the information as all the colours will be pretty much the same.


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## SixStar

Swarthy - it would just not be possible to list every single food manufactured by every single company, so I've had to pick one by each of them. The list isn't gospel - it's a starting point, people need to do their own research too. If they see a brand they like the sound of, they can then go and have a look at their website etc, and see what other (maybe better) varieties they do. 

I've said the opinions given on the food are merely my opinion - not that of a vet nor a nutritionist, and I haven't even used the vast majority of the foods - the grading is based merely on the ingredients. Like I said in my opening post, we won't all agree on what foods are good and what foods are bad.

It's just a rough basic starting point - and should only be used as such


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## swarthy

SixStar said:


> Swarthy - it would just not be possible to list every single food manufactured by every single company, so I've had to pick one by each of them. The list isn't gospel - it's a starting point, people need to do their own research too. If they see a brand they like the sound of, they can then go and have a look at their website etc, and see what other (maybe better) varieties they do.
> 
> I've said the opinions given on the food are merely my opinion - not that of a vet nor a nutritionist, and I haven't even used the vast majority of the foods - the grading is based merely on the ingredients. Like I said in my opening post, we won't all agree on what foods are good and what foods are bad.
> 
> It's just a rough basic starting point - and should only be used as such


I didn't say it wasn't and recognise that it wouldn't be feasible to cover every single food - however, the colour blindness issue is a very real one and should be considered - similarly - your research would have shown that there are different 'types' of foods within a product range - and this isn't indicated.

I am not trying to be pedantic or undermining the work you've done - but I have been around the forums long enough to know that what a lot of people read on them they take as gospel as opposed to a 'starting point'.

I've known breeders lose whole waiting lists as the result of one misinformed and adverse comment about them on a forum - I've seen people change a whole diet that worked off the back of a single forum post - it's a difficult one because you can't legislate for the different types of people who may read a thread -

I just feel that the addition of the colour indication against each food and a recognition that some of these companies do offer grain free and sensitive versions, some at very affordable prices, others at no so affordable prices would make the post and thread that much more valuable to people.


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## SixStar

I like the idea of adding something extra to each listing saying what other varieties are about, I think I may do that. It wouldn't be possible to list all the ingredients for each of them, but just a mention the company do produce other things maybe. I&#8217;ll see.

I hadn't thought of the colour blindness thing either I must admit. Although it was just a loose rough grading, just what *I* thought of the foods, so isn't a huge problem - the info still stands without the colour coded.

I will consider making some changes - but for the time being, I can't do anything - I cannot add any more text to the opening post (well I have 6 words left!) because it has reached the limit of amount of text allowed in a post.

Thank you for your feedback, it's appreciated.


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## Honey Bee

I defintely appreciate the effort you have put into compiling this list of foods and the time and research required so thank you for doing it. 

The only problem is I am now even more confused. After the thread that mentioned the additives DHA and DHT I have been doing some extensive research myself. The nutritionalist at [email protected] suggested Burgess supadog mature for Honey and her daft tummy but it does not contain large levels of meat and still has wheat in it. 

I have also spoken to Arden Grange and they have suggested their Ocean White fish and potato for 6 weeks, then Adult Salmon and Rice for 6 weeks and then, if she is still ok, tranferring her to Adult Chicken and Rice or Lamb and Rice. This is what I have decided to go with but I am now disappointed to see that this is only Amber on your list and I wondered why this is as so many people on here seem to rave about it and it doesn't contain bad additives and has some very good ones like Prebiotics, glucosamine and Chondrotin. 

Help! Could you please explain?


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## Guest

I'm guessing the AG chicken and rice is only amber because it has maize in it Honey Bee.


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## Cockerpoo lover

You can also find additional info for some of these foods with more explanation on ingredients at

Dog Food Analysis - Reviews of kibble.

Just click on review and type food in box. It won't do them all but does have Barking Heads- Arden grange- Origen- Royal canin- Burns etc.....


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## SixStar

Honey Bee said:


> I defintely appreciate the effort you have put into compiling this list of foods and the time and research required so thank you for doing it.
> 
> The only problem is I am now even more confused. After the thread that mentioned the additives DHA and DHT I have been doing some extensive research myself. The nutritionalist at [email protected] suggested Burgess supadog mature for Honey and her daft tummy but it does not contain large levels of meat and still has wheat in it.
> 
> I have also spoken to Arden Grange and they have suggested their Ocean White fish and potato for 6 weeks, then Adult Salmon and Rice for 6 weeks and then, if she is still ok, tranferring her to Adult Chicken and Rice or Lamb and Rice. This is what I have decided to go with but I am now disappointed to see that this is only Amber on your list and I wondered why this is as so many people on here seem to rave about it and it doesn't contain bad additives and has some very good ones like Prebiotics, glucosamine and Chondrotin.
> 
> Help! Could you please explain?


The lamb & rice sensitive Burgess is good - I'm going to change my Burgess listing to that one because the beef one I currently have listed is very poor and not a good reflection on the company.

Arden Grange is a good food, but the chicken & rice, lamb & rice and salmon & rice all have maize in. Their white fish & potato is the only one without it.

The only ones I have in green are the ones with a very high meat content - over 50%, and with no grain.

I consider anything with grain to be ''middle of the road'' hence amber, and anything without it very good.

Burgess sensitive and any of the Arden Grange ones would be good to try on Honey 



McKenzie said:


> I'm guessing the AG chicken and rice is only amber because it has maize in it Honey Bee.


As I've just said to Honeybee, I've marked only the grain free very high meat foods in green - the amber ones are all good feeds, but contain some grains.

Lamb, chicken & salmon, all with rice, in the Arden Grange range, all contain maize.


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## swarthy

This is a very good site - and also had a section on meat meal - which surprised me - I certainly learnt something 

The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?

I know it is an American site, but don't be put off by that (as a lot of foods here and in the US are different) - it still contains some very useful and informative content


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## Honey Bee

Thank you Sixstar for your reply. I now understand why you have done it like this. This dog feeding game is an absolute minefield and getting your head anywhere near around it is very difficult. I hope it is made a sticky as it does definitely provide a good basis to start from.


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## kat&molly

Great thread Sixstar. 
Although I dont feed dry- I can at least direct new members when they ask.
If it gets made into a sticky


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## cinnamontoast

This surely has to be made into a sticky! I've already quoted the opening post once. Come on, mods, this is a bit more vital than the last current sticky, on which the last post is over a year old!


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## Louloulala

I agree, this should be a sticky! Wanted to read it again earlier and had to go back a couple of pages to find it!

I have decided to go with Skinners thanks to this thread and bought some today, made looking for a new food a lot easier  Just hope he likes it, of course changing him over slowly.


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## lisaloo1

brilliant post!!! please could you include pets at home advanced nutrition and this is what i feed my puppy and i just wondered how that measures up
thanx
lisa


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## Roo

Alot of time & effort has obviously gone into this however it is flawed in the fact that on some brands, you mention 'rice' ( you see grain as being negative ), whereas Brown Rice is incredibly healthy & nutritious ( full of minerals, good for brain function etc )....Burns & Natural Dog Food Co both use Brown Rice & not White ( which is just starch & sugar ), yet you have marked them down for this. Also, you have ' lowered ' the actual salmon % content in Natural Dog Food by 13%.
Also, you have made no regard for the addition of synthetic vitamins & minerals which many, if not all of your Green brands have. Conversley, your Yellow brands ( one in particular NDFC ) doesn't.
I think it would have been fairer to the companies mentioned to only list the Red products, i.e. the foods which were just downright poor, i.e. Bakers, Wagg, Pedigree etc as there is just too much of a grey area between Green & Yellow.


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## SixStar

Roo said:


> Alot of time & effort has obviously gone into this however it is flawed in the fact that on some brands, you mention 'rice' ( you see grain as being negative ), whereas Brown Rice is incredibly healthy & nutritious ( full of minerals, good for brain function etc )....Burns & Natural Dog Food Co both use Brown Rice & not White ( which is just starch & sugar ), yet you have marked them down for this. Also, you have ' lowered ' the actual salmon % content in Natural Dog Food by 13%.
> Also, you have made no regard for the addition of synthetic vitamins & minerals which many, if not all of your Green brands have. Conversley, your Yellow brands ( one in particular NDFC ) doesn't.
> I think it would have been fairer to the companies mentioned to only list the Red products, i.e. the foods which were just downright poor, i.e. Bakers, Wagg, Pedigree etc as there is just too much of a grey area between Green & Yellow.


Dogs do not need grain in their diets, they get absolutely no nutritional benefit from it whatsoever. Rice - whether it's white or brown - is a filler, albeit a better one than maize and wheat.

I have not altered any ingredients lists - they were all taken directly from the internet. If you think I've got it wrong, I'll go back and have another look.

What's the grey area between the orange and green foods? The green foods are grain free (remembering dogs do not need grains in their diet) and the orange ones contain some grain, mainly rice, which I think is ''ok'', but not fabulous - hence why they've not been marked as green.


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## SixStar

Roo said:


> Also, you have ' lowered ' the actual salmon % content in Natural Dog Food by 13%.


I've just gone and checked this.

The ingredients listed in my posts are -

Ingredients: Fresh salmon (min 24%), rice (24%), oats, dried salmon (min 13%), mixed vegetables (9%), herbs, barley, whole linseed, chicken oil, brewers yeast, sugar beet, seaweed.

And the ingredients listed on the Natural Dog Food Company website are -

Fresh Scottish Salmon (min 24%), Whole Brown rice (min 24%), Whole Oats, Dried Scottish Salmon (min 13%), Mixed Vegetables & Herbs (min 9.25%), Whole Barley, Linseed, Refined Chicken Oil, Brewers Yeast, Sugar Beet, Seaweed

Taken from here - Natural Dog Food Adult Food Ingredients

Where's the ''missing'' 13% of salmon?


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## Roo

SixStar said:


> Dogs do not need grain in their diets, they get absolutely no nutritional benefit from it whatsoever. Rice - whether it's white or brown - is a filler, albeit a better one than maize and wheat.
> 
> I have not altered any ingredients lists - they were all taken directly from the internet. If you think I've got it wrong, I'll go back and have another look.
> 
> What's the grey area between the orange and green foods? The green foods are grain free (remembering dogs do not need grains in their diet) and the orange ones contain some grain, mainly rice, which I think is ''ok'', but not fabulous  hence why theyve not been marked as green.


You are wrong, the benefits of Brown Rice are numerous & hugely documented.
The grey areas between Green & Orange are 1. The Brown Rice issue. 2. The fact that your Green foods contain synthetic vitamins & minerals which firstly aren't great for dogs ( being synthetic ), secondly would suggest that the nutritional balance of natural ingredients was slightly 'out' for the need to add synthetic vits & minerals in the first place. Also 3. you have failed to realise the benefits of other ingredients such as herbs, oats veg etc & ommited to see the problems with salt.
Have another look at the content of Salmon on NDFC, it should read Fresh Scottish Salmon min 24%, Dried Scottish Salmon min13%
I still think it would be fairer to purely list a detailed programme of the Red foods as there is far too much to consider between the Green & Orange.


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## SixStar

Roo said:


> You are wrong, the benefits of Brown Rice are numerous & hugely documented.
> The grey areas between Green & Orange are 1. The Brown Rice issue. 2. The fact that your Green foods contain synthetic vitamins & minerals which firstly aren't great for dogs ( being synthetic ), secondly would suggest that the nutritional balance of natural ingredients was slightly 'out' for the need to add synthetic vits & minerals in the first place. Also 3. you have failed to realise the benefits of other ingredients such as herbs, oats veg etc & ommited to see the problems with salt.
> Have another look at the content of Salmon on NDFC, it should read Fresh Scottish Salmon min 24%, Dried Scottish Salmon min13%
> I still think it would be fairer to purely list a detailed programme of the Red foods as there is far too much to consider between the Green & Orange.


The benefits of a grain free diet are numerous and hugely documented too.

I'll argue until I am blue in the face that dogs do not need grain in their diets. Yes, alot of dogs do well on diets with grain, but it's not needed in any way, shape or form. Dogs do not eat grain in the wild - they'll hunt meat, and graze on any available fruits, veg, berries, nuts etc - but they don't seek out grain - not even brown rice 

Grain includes rice (white & brown), maize, wheat, oats and barely - none of these are needed by a dog, they're just fillers.

If you have a look, I haven't missed ANY salmon from the Natural Dog Food Company ingredients. I've listed it in the correct way, with rice before dried salmon, as there is more rice (more fillers) than dried salmon in the food 

I haven't failed to see the benefits of veg? I feed the BARF diet - and include a good quantity of fresh fruit and vegetables, I think they're great for dogs. The green, top rated kibbles nearly all contain veg - granted, some of the orange ones do too, but they still contain grain.

Oats, again, are a grain and a filler - not needed for dogs, so I don't see the benefit of these in foods.

I personally think I've made my colour coded pretty clear cut, but if not, again - here is how I've graded it

Green - GRAIN FREE and high meat content kibbles
Orange - Good foods, but contain some grain, which is a filler
Red - Insufficient meat content, far too much grain and potential harmful ingredients


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## Roo

SixStar said:


> The benefits of a grain free diet are numerous and hugely documented too.
> 
> I'll argue until I am blue in the face that dogs do not need grain in their diets. Yes, alot of dogs do well on diets with grain, but it's not needed in any way, shape or form. Dogs do not eat grain in the wild - they'll hunt meat, and graze on any available fruits, veg, berries, nuts etc - but they don't seek out grain - not even brown rice
> 
> Grain includes rice (white & brown), maize, wheat, oats and barely - none of these are needed by a dog, they're just fillers.
> 
> If you have a look, I haven't missed ANY salmon from the Natural Dog Food Company ingredients. I've listed it in the correct way, with rice before dried salmon, as there is more rice (more fillers) than dried salmon in the food
> 
> I haven't failed to see the benefits of veg? I feed the BARF diet - and include a good quantity of fresh fruit and vegetables, I think they're great for dogs. The green, top rated kibbles nearly all contain veg - granted, some of the orange ones do too, but they still contain grain.
> 
> Oats, again, are a grain and a filler - not needed for dogs, so I don't see the benefit of these in foods.
> 
> I personally think I've made my colour coded pretty clear cut, but if not, again - here is how I've graded it
> 
> Green - GRAIN FREE and high meat content kibbles
> Orange - Good foods, but contain some grain, which is a filler
> Red - Insufficient meat content, far too much grain and potential harmful ingredients


Ok, this is getting a little out of hand...........
I totally understand 'how' you have graded the brands, I think you are being blinkered as to the benefits of various ingredients & the risks of others. Not all grain is a 'filler'.......there are huge benefits to Brown Rice & Oats........massive. For fear of repeating myself, I firmly believe you have done more of a mis - service than service with the Green & Orange lists. The entire list of ingredients needs to be taken into account & not just your opinion on the 'evils' of whole grain. Eg Brown Rice = High content of SELENIUM which helps to de toxify the system. ZINC which helps maintain normal brain function. B vitamin & fibre for healthy blood sugar levels. Rich in TRYPTOPHAN which plays an important role in healthy brain functions & behavour..................All in all, a pretty neat filler eh?


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## lisaloo1

im confused now and not go a clue what i should really be feeding my puppy


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## SixStar

Roo said:


> Ok, this is getting a little out of hand...........
> I totally understand 'how' you have graded the brands, I think you are being blinkered as to the benefits of various ingredients & the risks of others. Not all grain is a 'filler'.......there are huge benefits to Brown Rice & Oats........massive. For fear of repeating myself, I firmly believe you have done more of a mis - service than service with the Green & Orange lists. The entire list of ingredients needs to be taken into account & not just your opinion on the 'evils' of whole grain. Eg Brown Rice = High content of SELENIUM which helps to de toxify the system. ZINC which helps maintain normal brain function. B vitamin & fibre for healthy blood sugar levels. Rich in TRYPTOPHAN which plays an important role in healthy brain functions & behavour..................All in all, a pretty neat filler eh?


Selenium - found in turkey, liver, sardines, salmon...
Zinc - beef, liver, venison, lamb...
Vitamin B - chicken, tuna, vegetables..
Trypthophan - chicken, beef, turkey, tuna...

I'm sure my dogs would much rather those than brown rice 

But hey, sure, we'll agree to disagree


----------



## SixStar

lisaloo1 said:


> im confused now and not go a clue what i should really be feeding my puppy


You're currently feeding PAH Advanced, aren't you?

Advanced Nutrition Puppy Food with Chicken 1kg and 2.5kg | Pets at Home This one?

Not brilliant, in my honest opinion. First ingredient is fresh chicken, which is chicken before the moisture content has been removed, so the actual meat content in the food is much less than stated. It's high in maize too, which Id personally avoid.

But - it's not a dreadful food by any means, if your pup is doing good on it, then no need to change, you could do much worse


----------



## Roo

SixStar said:


> Selenium - found in turkey, liver, sardines, salmon...
> Zinc - beef, liver, venison, lamb...
> Vitamin B - chicken, tuna, vegetables..
> Trypthophan - chicken, beef, turkey, tuna...
> 
> I'm sure my dogs would much rather those than brown rice
> 
> But hey, sure, we'll agree to disagree


You are absolutely right, but you'd have a hec of a mix of food there to get the right balance.......Balance being the operative word.......you need the right balance of Good Protein, Minerals & Vits etc..........getting the right balance of Zinc for example would , by your theory , mean adding more meat, which would upset the Protein balance ( too high for many dogs).........& that is why Brown Rice is used. The same goes for the Trypthophan & B Vitamins. Balance, that's the key to a good food.:wink:


----------



## SixStar

Roo said:


> You are absolutely right, but you'd have a hec of a mix of food there to get the right balance.......Balance being the operative word.......you need the right balance of Good Protein, Minerals & Vits etc..........getting the right balance of Zinc for example would , by your theory , mean adding more meat, which would upset the Protein balance ( too high for many dogs).........& that is why Brown Rice is used. The same goes for the Trypthophan & B Vitamins. Balance, that's the key to a good food.:wink:


Meat is all my dogs get, along with offal, bones and a veggie mix.

*Quantity* of protein is not the problem, it's the *quality*. My dogs diet is very high in protein, but all from a good source.

But hey, we won't agree on this so best leave it. Your dog is obviously doing well on the diet you feed, and my dogs are doing well on the diet I feed, so that's all that matters


----------



## Roo

SixStar said:


> Meat is all my dogs get, along with offal, bones and a veggie mix.
> 
> *Quantity* of protein is not the problem, it's the *quality*. My dogs diet is very high in protein, but all from a good source.
> 
> But hey, we won't agree on this so best leave it. Your dog is obviously doing well on the diet you feed, and my dogs are doing well on the diet I feed, so that's all that matters


...........Quality of Protein is critical, you are right; however, dogs convert Protein to energy & therefore too much protein DOES have an impact on some ( not all ) dogs' behaviour. 
But yes, you obviously really love & care for your dogs as do I mine. So I will 'cyber shake' your hand & thank you for the debate.


----------



## lisaloo1

SixStar said:


> You're currently feeding PAH Advanced, aren't you?
> 
> Advanced Nutrition Puppy Food with Chicken 1kg and 2.5kg | Pets at Home This one?
> 
> Not brilliant, in my honest opinion. First ingredient is fresh chicken, which is chicken before the moisture content has been removed, so the actual meat content in the food is much less than stated. It's high in maize too, which Id personally avoid.
> 
> But - it's not a dreadful food by any means, if your pup is doing good on it, then no need to change, you could do much worse


yeah thats the one, but I get large breed puppy, im seriously considering changing tho after what I've read, hes a rottie so i have to get his diet right while hes growing to give him a better chance of health later on in life, this is why i find these posts both interesting and confusing lol


----------



## Mum2Heidi

The only advanced nutrition I would consider is the sensitive/salmon. It's the only one with no maize. You could probably swop him over to that quite easily. You could always take back the bag you have now and ask to exchange. It's [email protected] policy to do that. (keep a bit back for the change over tho ) You could always add a bit of wet food to increase the meat content if you wanted. 

That way you havent lost anything. A rescue or animal shelter will get your part used bag.


----------



## Rini

I've been looking into Symply Dog Food but I'm seriously considering Acana though it might be more expensive..... :/ If it's going to be too much to deliver then I will stick to something else.


----------



## henry

Rini said:


> I've been looking into Symply Dog Food but I'm seriously considering Acana though it might be more expensive..... :/ If it's going to be too much to deliver then I will stick to something else.


Feeding amounts will probably be lower on the Acana - I thoroughly recommend it. Zooplus do free delivery over £19 and K9 capers do free delivery over £29. You can also get it on Petplanet, who deliver it (7kg and 13.5kg bags) for free. Hope that helps. Claire


----------



## Rini

henry said:


> Feeding amounts will probably be lower on the Acana - I thoroughly recommend it. Zooplus do free delivery over £19 and K9 capers do free delivery over £29. You can also get it on Petplanet, who deliver it (7kg and 13.5kg bags) for free. Hope that helps. Claire


Thank you very much, I'm on zooplus as we speak looking at prices and noticed the free delivery limit. I was thinking if I was to get it I would get the Wild Prairie one as the grasslands seems really expensive and maybe out of my budget depending on how long it would last. 
I'm thinking of getting a smaller breed of dog so I would probably get the 2.5KG bag instead of keeping a 7KG one.. again depending on how long it would last XD all things I don't know yet 
The daily feeding amount seem similar but possibly less on the symply? I'll have to think more about it when it's nearer the time I'm getting my puppy. I'm thinking of using my tips from work to pay for the food and I could imagine that the Acana would work out alright...


----------



## SixStar

I can't add any more listings to my original post, but if anyone does want a particular brand or variety added, please do shout and I'll get the ingredients list and prices together, and work out feeding cost and just add it in a post.


----------



## Rini

SixStar said:


> I can't add any more listings to my original post, but if anyone does want a particular brand or variety added, please do shout and I'll get the ingredients list and prices together, and work out feeding cost and just add it in a post.


It would be good to hear your opinion on Symply Dog Food as that was one of the first I looked into after finding info saying it was on of the best in the uk.


----------



## SixStar

Sure, will get that done later for you.


----------



## Rini

SixStar said:


> Sure, will get that done later for you.


This is a really good thread ^.^ Very interesting, should have another one for wet foods too ^.^


----------



## rottiemum

lisaloo1 said:


> brilliant post!!! please could you include pets at home advanced nutrition and this is what i feed my puppy and i just wondered how that measures up
> thanx
> lisa


Nothing to do with food (nice thread though ), just want to say your pup is gorgeous - love the huge paws :001_tt1:


----------



## Barkie

Thanks for researching this and posting it up. 

Can we have it as a Sticky please.


----------



## astra

Thank you for this thread, it has made very interesting reading. 

I've been lurking around these forums for a while, and researching food, so I wish this was available sooner. I've just switched my little Bichon over to Orijen from Barking Heads, and he's loving it. I too would love to see a wet food guide, I'd like to find a grain free wet food, but it's taken me ages to find and decide on the dry lol. I'm feeding Wainwrights trays at the moment.


----------



## lisaloo1

rottiemum said:


> Nothing to do with food (nice thread though ), just want to say your pup is gorgeous - love the huge paws :001_tt1:


thankyou hes a really good puppy, so pleased with him 99% of the time  yours is gorgeous too!!!!


----------



## lisaloo1

SixStar said:


> You're currently feeding PAH Advanced, aren't you?
> 
> Advanced Nutrition Puppy Food with Chicken 1kg and 2.5kg | Pets at Home This one?
> 
> Not brilliant, in my honest opinion. First ingredient is fresh chicken, which is chicken before the moisture content has been removed, so the actual meat content in the food is much less than stated. It's high in maize too, which Id personally avoid.
> 
> But - it's not a dreadful food by any means, if your pup is doing good on it, then no need to change, you could do much worse


hi six star thanx for that reply, i've thought about it and looked through your food index and we have decided to change him over to acana wild prairie, as the ingredients look great, ive looked on the website and read all up about it
thanks for doing this post, i can now stop worrying my puppy aint getting the right food
Lisa xx


----------



## Mum2Heidi

astra said:


> Thank you for this thread, it has made very interesting reading.
> 
> I've been lurking around these forums for a while, and researching food, so I wish this was available sooner. I've just switched my little Bichon over to Orijen from Barking Heads, and he's loving it. I too would love to see a wet food guide, I'd like to find a grain free wet food, but it's taken me ages to find and decide on the dry lol. I'm feeding Wainwrights trays at the moment.


I like WW trays. Sorts mine out a treat if she has a tum upset. For grain free wet have a look on the zooplus website. I get most of my wet food there. Lots to choose from


----------



## SixStar

Rini said:


> It would be good to hear your opinion on Symply Dog Food as that was one of the first I looked into after finding info saying it was on of the best in the uk.


*SYMPLY (turkey & rice)*

*Price (12kg): *£42.99
*Suggested daily amount:* 200g
*Daily feeding cost:* 71p

*Ingredients:* Dried turkey (26%), rice (26%), rice bran, rice flour, oats, sunflower oil, beet pulp, dried egg, seaweed.

Middle of the road, on par with the likes of James Wellbeloved, Wainwrights, Burns etc - nothing fantastic, but a good basic dog food  Not sure where one of the best in the UK came from?!



lisaloo1 said:


> hi six star thanx for that reply, i've thought about it and looked through your food index and we have decided to change him over to acana wild prairie, as the ingredients look great, ive looked on the website and read all up about it
> thanks for doing this post, i can now stop worrying my puppy aint getting the right food
> Lisa xx


Fabulous!  Stuff like that makes all the time I spent on this thread worthwhile.


----------



## Rini

SixStar said:


> Not sure where one of the best in the UK came from?!


Oh lol I was looking on a website which was comparing uk brands and they topped Symply as the one they recommended as being made in the uk. Just their opinion.


----------



## MrTennis

Hi guys, I'm pretty new around here and just wondering a few things. I've read through the first 4 pages of this thread so sorry if what I ask has already been mentioned.

What exactly are good and bad ingredients in a dry dog food? Also what benifits are there to using a good dry food compared to a bad one? I see some people seem to actually talk about visible changes in their dog when they are using a 'good' food. I have to say I was surprised at reading these sort of things as according the original list the dry foods I we have fed our dog are both in the 'red', Pedigree and Purina. She is however an extremely happy dog, is as lively and joyful on her walks as she has ever been and has not slowed down with age. So when I see people mention visible changes in their dogs it surprises me, as I don't really see how my dog would improve by using one of the 'green' listed foods.

We've never really paid attention to feeding guidelines either. I didn't actually know it would vary between different foods until I read this thread. We feed her half a mug in the morning, then just over a mug of dry food plus half a tin of meat or our own leftovers in the evening. Again I know most dogs only have one meal a day, but our dog has never been overweight. For a labrador people are very surprised when I tell them she's 6 years old as she looks like a slim young adult, barely older than a puppy.

My last question is what exactly is raw feeding that I see people mentioning? Is it just as it sounds and people are feeding raw meat? Or am I being dim here haha?


----------



## SixStar

MrTennis said:


> Hi guys, I'm pretty new around here and just wondering a few things. I've read through the first 4 pages of this thread so sorry if what I ask has already been mentioned.
> 
> What exactly are good and bad ingredients in a dry dog food? Also what benifits are there to using a good dry food compared to a bad one? I see some people seem to actually talk about visible changes in their dog when they are using a 'good' food. I have to say I was surprised at reading these sort of things as according the original list the dry foods I we have fed our dog are both in the 'red', Pedigree and Purina. She is however an extremely happy dog, is as lively and joyful on her walks as she has ever been and has not slowed down with age. So when I see people mention visible changes in their dogs it surprises me, as I don't really see how my dog would improve by using one of the 'green' listed foods.
> 
> We've never really paid attention to feeding guidelines either. I didn't actually know it would vary between different foods until I read this thread. We feed her half a mug in the morning, then just over a mug of dry food plus half a tin of meat or our own leftovers in the evening. Again I know most dogs only have one meal a day, but our dog has never been overweight. For a labrador people are very surprised when I tell them she's 6 years old as she looks like a slim young adult, barely older than a puppy.
> 
> My last question is what exactly is raw feeding that I see people mentioning? Is it just as it sounds and people are feeding raw meat? Or am I being dim here haha?


Firstly, welcome to the forum.

What makes a 'good' and a 'bad' dog food depends on the person you ask! For me, personally, a very good food would be one thats grain free, and with a high meat content, so all the green ones in my list. But basically, for me to class a food as good - it needs to have all the ingredients clearly labelled individually - no vague sounding ''cereals'' or ''meat & animal derivatives' which are mainly the waste parts of the animal, and of course nothing like artificial additives, colours or added sugar.

Having some rice in the food is ok, but avoid wheat and maize if possible.

Pedigree, Bakers and Wagg (and possibly others) contain known cariogenic ingredients and additives that are banned in human food. That's got to be your first reason to avoid these brands!

The change in a dog upon switching to a good quality diet may not be apparent immediately - but could save alot of heartache in the future - one of my greyhounds was diagnosed with stomach cancer last month, and we believe it's a result of the poor quality nutrition he received in his racing days when he was younger.

Of course, some dogs do appear to do well on poor diets their whole lives, but I don't see why it's worth chancing it - good food builds the foundations of good health 

Raw feeding is excatly what it sounds like! I follow the BARF diet, which is a type of raw feeding - my dogs have raw meat, bones and offal - along with fruits and vegetables, raw eggs, goats milk, honey and yoghurt.


----------



## SixStar

Thank you mods for making this a sticky


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## Goblin

ditto on the thanks for sticky.. very useful post.

Will also say there is a large sticky about raw:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html

There are two main type prey model (frankenprey) and Bones And Raw Food (BARF). Simply put BARF includes vegetables, prey model doesn't other than as an extra. Raw is not something where you just go out and buy meat to give to your dog. You need to do a fair amount of research first.


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## cinnamontoast

Delighted to see this is a sticky!


----------



## ploddingon

Interesting thread and thanks to the OP for taking the time and effort in doing it.

Have to say I think people need to take it for what it was meant to be (I think), an easily accessible guide to some of the kibbles available, and the posters opinion on which is the best.

It quite clearly states this in the OP so to argue whether their view is right or wrong just takes away the value of the post.

Looking at the list provided, I am feeding my dog one of the worst dog foods - Chappie. However, as it is one of the few foods that he will eat and which stops him vomiting in the morning I have to balance up the benefits of that and am happy for now that he is getting something that seems to suit him.

If the time comes when he is able to eat something else then I will look to the list as a guide containing some useful info and take it from there.


----------



## quentsy

thanks for this post!!!i learn a lot from this how i will feed and what kind of food should i give to my dear pets!!!


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## Tollisty

What do you think of this food?
Hello and welcome! :: Bob & Lush - High quality dog food


----------



## SixStar

Tollisty said:


> What do you think of this food?
> Hello and welcome! :: Bob & Lush - High quality dog food


It's excellent!  would certainly be a green on my list.

I had a sample from them the other day, am using the kibble as training treats and they're going down a storm!


----------



## Krystalclear

SixStar...what a gem! Im


----------



## Krystalclear

Sixstar...what a gem! Im new to this forum and a soon to be owner of a Bullmastiff puppy, I was really concerned on the whole topic of feeding but your post is fantastic and has made it all very clear. It's also prompted me to do my own research into the brands that I would now consider using. Thanks :thumbup:

I'd appreciate your advice/thoughts on the following:


Mixing 'green' & 'orange' choices (still providing a high quality feed whilst keeping the cots down slightly?)
Supplementing dry feeding with occasional wet food or raw foods/bones?
How often can I alternate between different flavours i.e. chicken one day, fish the next etc.?

Im loving the ingredients in Acana, Taste Of The Wild & Fish4dogs and will be using one of these either wholly or mixed with an 'orange' choice (Acana & Arden Grange for example). I understand why these two choices are separated in the first place but was just hoping that whilst mixing the two would introduce a small amount of cereal/fillers to his feed it would still provide a high quality more cost effective option?

We cant wait to get our new pup in November and I just want to make sure I learn everything I need to know to ensure he has the best care & diet possible!


----------



## Tollisty

SixStar said:


> It's excellent!  would certainly be a green on my list.
> 
> I had a sample from them the other day, am using the kibble as training treats and they're going down a storm!


The breeders price is cheaper than fish4dogs breeders price, so was going to try my lot on it. I have some of the wet food, and they love it.


----------



## SixStar

Krystalclear said:


> Sixstar...what a gem! I'm new to this forum and a soon to be owner of a Bullmastiff puppy, I was really concerned on the whole topic of feeding but your post is fantastic and has made it all very clear. It's also prompted me to do my own research into the brands that I would now consider using. Thanks :thumbup:
> 
> I'd appreciate your advice/thoughts on the following:
> 
> 
> Mixing 'green' & 'orange' choices (still providing a high quality feed whilst keeping the cots down slightly?)
> Supplementing dry feeding with occasional wet food or raw foods/bones?
> How often can I alternate between different flavours i.e. chicken one day, fish the next etc.?
> 
> I'm loving the ingredients in Acana, Taste Of The Wild & Fish4dogs and will be using one of these either wholly or mixed with an 'orange' choice (Acana & Arden Grange for example). I understand why these two choices are separated in the first place but was just hoping that whilst mixing the two would introduce a small amount of cereal/fillers to his feed it would still provide a high quality more cost effective option?
> 
> We can't wait to get our new pup in November and I just want to make sure I learn everything I need to know to ensure he has the best care & diet possible!


So glad it's been useful for you and welcome to the forum from a fellow Mastiff owner - my Blue is a Neapolitan Mastiff cross 

To answer your questions, there is no harm in mixing the 'green' and 'orange' feeds however most of the 'green' feeds are actually quite cost effective, you don't need to feed as much as some of the other, lower quality brands, so you might find you don't need to feed any 'orange' food alongside - but if you chose to, no problem whatsoever. Although do bear in mind if you are paying that bit extra for a grain free food, is then adding in a food with grain back kind of defeating the point?

Second question - yes, yes, yes to adding some raw :thumbup: Raw and kibble must never be fed in the same meal, but a mixed diet comprising of kibble and raw on alternating days is great - I fed this way for many, many years. It's only recently that I've gone 100% raw. Adding wet food to kibble is no problem at all, I know alot of people do this - it adds a bit more texture and variety.

Sorry is your last question in regards to kibble or raw foods? Variety is the spice of life and how much variety, and how often you offer that, is all down to the dog and what they can cope with!


----------



## Krystalclear

Thanks SixStar..Ill stick with non-cereal based I think and alternate with raw foods a couple of times a week. Question regarding alternating flavours was more based on dry kibble and whether from a digestive health point of view, was it ok to change the flavours, daily, weekly etc...from your answer Im thinking 'yes':001_cool:

Still on the feed string..Taste Of The Wild & Acana dont seem to do a specific puppy formula (Orijen do, which seems equally as good). However on my research adventure, Ive stumbled across rave reviews from people feeding their puppy on the TOTW high prairie, is this an acceptable option?(I wasnt sure if 'puppy' formulas were that because of the size of kibble pieces or nutrient base). Also the whole 'large breed' thing is throwing me a bit...some of the brands produce a feed specifically for large breeds but for instance TOTW dont!..are there specific nutrients my pup will be missing out on if I dont by a large breed formula or if Im feeding a high quality choice, does it matter?:confused1:...for a novice there seems so much to get wrong..

You need to set up a blog at this rate SixStar!


----------



## SixStar

It should be fine to swap between kibble flavours, I don't reckon many dogs will have a problem with that!

Don't bother with puppy foods, it's a gimmick. My pups on raw get fed no different to my adults and we've never had a problem, and there was never puppy food years ago don't forget  Same with large breed food - only difference is the size of the kibble and they usually have joint care ingredients added, and you can just add your own supplements to whatever diet you feed if you're worried 

Anything else, just shout.


----------



## hyper Springer

SixStar said:


> So glad it's been useful for you and welcome to the forum from a fellow Mastiff owner - my Blue is a Neapolitan Mastiff cross
> 
> To answer your questions, there is no harm in mixing the 'green' and 'orange' feeds however most of the 'green' feeds are actually quite cost effective, you don't need to feed as much as some of the other, lower quality brands, so you might find you don't need to feed any 'orange' food alongside - but if you chose to, no problem whatsoever. Although do bear in mind if you are paying that bit extra for a grain free food, is then adding in a food with grain back kind of defeating the point?
> 
> Second question - yes, yes, yes to adding some raw :thumbup: Raw and kibble must never be fed in the same meal, but a mixed diet comprising of kibble and raw on alternating days is great - I fed this way for many, many years. It's only recently that I've gone 100% raw. Adding wet food to kibble is no problem at all, I know alot of people do this - it adds a bit more texture and variety.
> 
> Sorry is your last question in regards to kibble or raw foods? Variety is the spice of life and how much variety, and how often you offer that, is all down to the dog and what they can cope with!


Forgive my ignorance but why cant kibble and raw be fed together at the same meal as like a wet\kibble mix?

Is it in case they wolf down the kibble and swallow a large lump of raw ?


----------



## SixStar

hyper Springer said:


> Forgive my ignorance but why cant kibble and raw be fed together at the same meal as like a wet\kibble mix?
> 
> Is it in case they wolf down the kibble and swallow a large lump of raw ?


Kibble can take upto 12 hours or more to digest whereas raw is through their system in as little as 4 hours. Feeding both together can result in the raw being 'stuck' behind the kibble in the gut whilst that digests - which gives bacteria a chance to grow because it's not being passed through as quickly as it should, this can lead to tummy upsets so if someone want to feed both kibble and raw, it should be at completely different times.


----------



## hyper Springer

SixStar said:


> Kibble can take upto 12 hours or more to digest whereas raw is through their system in as little as 4 hours. Feeding both together can result in the raw being 'stuck' behind the kibble in the gut whilst that digests - which gives bacteria a chance to grow because it's not being passed through as quickly as it should, this can lead to tummy upsets so if someone want to feed both kibble and raw, it should be at completely different times.


Interesting.....do you know what the digestion times are for wet and Kibble ?


----------



## SixStar

hyper Springer said:


> Interesting.....do you know what the digestion times are for wet and Kibble ?


Kibble is approx 12 hours like I say, but have no idea about wet food, sorry. I'd GUESS it was around 8 or so? Bacteria won't form in the gut on wet food though like it would with raw, so no need to worry about that.

When you feed Ziwipeak cans do you mix with kibble? I know the 'dry' Ziwipeak is classed as raw food, but not sure about the cans? The website suggests they are raw, but I thought all canned food was cooked as part of the canning process? You might want to er on the side of caution with that one.


----------



## hyper Springer

SixStar said:


> Kibble is approx 12 hours like I say, but have no idea about wet food, sorry. I'd GUESS it was around 8 or so? Bacteria won't form in the gut on wet food though like it would with raw, so no need to worry about that.
> 
> When you feed Ziwipeak cans do you mix with kibble? I know the 'dry' Ziwipeak is classed as raw food, but not sure about the cans? The website suggests they are raw, but I thought all canned food was cooked as part of the canning process? You might want to er on the side of caution with that one.


I think the cans are raw as well...I only feed a small amount of kibble with it...I wonder if this could have contributed to his anal glands getting blocked


----------



## Krystalclear

Thanks SixStar!


----------



## SixStar

hyper Springer said:


> I think the cans are raw as well...I only feed a small amount of kibble with it...I wonder if this could have contributed to his anal glands getting blocked


I doubt it - unless it gave him loose stools?


----------



## hyper Springer

SixStar said:


> I doubt it - unless it gave him loose stools?


They were not as solid as they normally are on the first 2 cans he had.....

I'm going to play safe and no arcana with the ziwipeak


----------



## L/C

SixStar said:


> Kibble can take upto 12 hours or more to digest whereas raw is through their system in as little as 4 hours. Feeding both together can result in the raw being 'stuck' behind the kibble in the gut whilst that digests - which gives bacteria a chance to grow because it's not being passed through as quickly as it should, this can lead to tummy upsets so if someone want to feed both kibble and raw, it should be at completely different times.


Is there any evidence for this? It's something that I've heard said on the internet a lot but no one's ever been able to give me a source for it. Not having a go - just curious as logically it doesn't make much sense to me.


----------



## SixStar

L/C said:


> Is there any evidence for this? It's something that I've heard said on the internet a lot but no one's ever been able to give me a source for it. Not having a go - just curious as logically it doesn't make much sense to me.


I don't know of any sources to back it up, I've never look. I'm the opposite to you - logically, I think it makes perfect sense :thumbup:


----------



## hyper Springer

It's odd isn't it digestion time ..Wilson had terra cannis for tea and has just had roast chicken sweetcorn and peas (no chips) for his supper but will not knock a pipe out till the morning:thumbup:


----------



## ploddingon

L/C said:


> Is there any evidence for this? It's something that I've heard said on the internet a lot but no one's ever been able to give me a source for it. Not having a go - just curious as logically it doesn't make much sense to me.


Have to say, it doesn't make sense to me either - surely the same problem would arise in people who feed tinned dog food mixed with a dry mixer?

I keep thinking of how people digest food - it all gets mushed up in the tummy, proteins, fats etc and the nutrients absorbed in the bowel and then what isnt needed gets pushed out the other end.

It all takes a few hours from start to finish, and would imagine it is the same for a dog, a constant process of food getting broken down and sent into the bowel.

I can't see how any of that would lead to a blockage from kibble being eaten, or why bacteria would grow in the gut because of it.

Also, what sort of bacteria? The gut is full of bacteria already, we need it to digest the food and without it get the squits. Is it a harmful bacteria and if so what effect does it have on the dog - I havent been able to find out that info anywhere.

Thats just guesswork mind you, because I dont know how a dogs gut works!


----------



## Keeshondmummy

Thank you for the work you did, I never heard of Applaws before this and I have just ordered some so Faythe can try it!  Sounds great... is it just me that gets excited over dog food?  I want it here already so I can look at it and see what it will look like, if my baby will like it e.t.c lol


----------



## Happy Paws2

I've just read the ingredients of the ones you marked green and some of the things in them could give a dog with a sensitive tummy the runs (to help in nicely).


----------



## decoratedlady08

lisaloo1 said:


> im confused now and not go a clue what i should really be feeding my puppy


Hi lisaloo

After lots of trial and error of different food resulting in dicky tummies etc, I have found maddog food and minced tripe the best for mine.
They all have lovely shiny coats, good body coverage and the right amount of energy. 
i have 2 rotties and a ddb on this. I am considering adding more raw meat too their diet but in the process of researching this at the moment. It won't be a total raw diet though.
I gave them raw egg and yogurt today for the first time which they loved. As i like too watch them try different food. They love chopped up sausage or hotdogs placed around the garden so they have too search for it. just thinking of games for them too keep their mind active. 
I do think that what you feed your dog on has too be best for the dog and your purse strings at the end of the day. so everyone will feed slightly differently too the next person.


----------



## SixStar

Happy Paws said:


> I've just read the ingredients of the ones you marked green and some of the things in them could give a dog with a sensitive tummy the runs (to help in nicely).


Any ingredient could give any dog an upset tummy, it depends what they're sensitive to 

What ingredients are they that you are worried about in the green foods?


----------



## lisaloo1

decoratedlady08 said:


> Hi lisaloo
> 
> After lots of trial and error of different food resulting in dicky tummies etc, I have found maddog food and minced tripe the best for mine.
> They all have lovely shiny coats, good body coverage and the right amount of energy.
> i have 2 rotties and a ddb on this. I am considering adding more raw meat too their diet but in the process of researching this at the moment. It won't be a total raw diet though.
> I gave them raw egg and yogurt today for the first time which they loved. As i like too watch them try different food. They love chopped up sausage or hotdogs placed around the garden so they have too search for it. just thinking of games for them too keep their mind active.
> I do think that what you feed your dog on has too be best for the dog and your purse strings at the end of the day. so everyone will feed slightly differently too the next person.


thanx for that, in the end I decided on acana, hes doing fantastic on it, and everyone comments on how well he looks, his coat is shiny and his growth is great, so glad i read this sticky because it helped so much


----------



## Smiffys mum

SixStar said:


> I can't add any more listings to my original post, but if anyone does want a particular brand or variety added, please do shout and I'll get the ingredients list and prices together, and work out feeding cost and just add it in a post.


Fantastic thread Sixstar - many thanks, your research and opinions are greatly appreciated.

Please could you have a look at Smiffy's food?
He can only be fed grain free as anything with grain, including brown rice makes him itchy and smelly!

His food is Lamb casserole by Ashenbank.

Ashenbank Lamb Casserole Adult Dry Dog Food

I buy the £38.99 15kg bag. Smiffy weighs 28kg and is fed 350g per day.

Thanks once again.


----------



## SixStar

Smiffys mum said:


> Fantastic thread Sixstar - many thanks, your research and opinions are greatly appreciated.
> 
> Please could you have a look at Smiffy's food?
> He can only be fed grain free as anything with grain, including brown rice makes him itchy and smelly!
> 
> His food is Lamb casserole by Ashenbank.
> 
> Ashenbank Lamb Casserole Adult Dry Dog Food
> 
> I buy the £38.99 15kg bag. Smiffy weighs 28kg and is fed 350g per day.
> 
> Thanks once again.


So glad it's been of use to you 

Never heard of the food you feed Smiffy before - just looked it up though and it seems very good! I know Smiffy weighs more than 15kg, but have based the working outs on a 15kg dog, to keep in with all the other listings 

*ASHENBANK (lamb casserole)*

*Price (15kg):* £38.99
*Suggested daily amount* 230g
*Daily feeding cost:* 59p

*Ingredients:*Potato (min 41%), fresh lamb (min 24%), lamb meal (min 21%), potato protein, peas, sunflower oil, lamb fat, whole linseed, pea fibre, lamb digest, minerals, vitamins, L-carnitine, carrot flakes, DL-methionine, cranberry, manno-oligosaccharides, fructo-oligosaccharides, glucosamine, MSM, yucca schidigera extract, chondroitin, beta-carotene 

Lots of meat, grain feed except from the linseed - no rice, wheat or maize - get's a green from me! :thumbup:


----------



## Guest

brilliant thread! thankyou


----------



## NicoleW

Can you give me a rating on these please Sixstar

Skinners Field and Trial Turkey and Rice Hypoallergenic Dog Food
CP21 (Salmon) - CSJ Command Performance - CSJK9 Ltd.
Sensitive Ocean White Fish and Potato
Wafcol Dog Adult With Corn (Chicken)

Please 

Trying to find a decent hypoallergenic food for my pooch who has just been diagnosed with a skin disease. We've tried Skinners before the field trial duck and rice which he did well on.


----------



## SixStar

NicoleW said:


> Can you give me a rating on these please Sixstar
> 
> Skinners Field and Trial Turkey and Rice Hypoallergenic Dog Food
> CP21 (Salmon) - CSJ Command Performance - CSJK9 Ltd.
> Sensitive Ocean White Fish and Potato
> Wafcol Dog Adult With Corn (Chicken)
> 
> Please
> 
> Trying to find a decent hypoallergenic food for my pooch who has just been diagnosed with a skin disease. We've tried Skinners before the field trial duck and rice which he did well on.


No problem Nicole - will do those for you during today and post up later


----------



## SixStar

NicoleW said:


> Can you give me a rating on these please Sixstar
> 
> Skinners Field and Trial Turkey and Rice Hypoallergenic Dog Food
> CP21 (Salmon) - CSJ Command Performance - CSJK9 Ltd.
> Sensitive Ocean White Fish and Potato
> Wafcol Dog Adult With Corn (Chicken)
> 
> Please
> 
> Trying to find a decent hypoallergenic food for my pooch who has just been diagnosed with a skin disease. We've tried Skinners before the field trial duck and rice which he did well on.


Here you go -

*SKINNERS (field & trial, turkey & rice)*

*Price (15kg):* £26.17
*Suggested daily amount:* 190g
*Daily feeding cost:* 33p

*Ingredients:* Whole rice (40%), turkey meat meal (21%), naked oats, peas, linseed, sunflower oil, beet pulp, vitamins, minerals, trace elements, Joint Aid supplement (2% [comprising of glucosamine, chondroitin, collagen, MSM, glutamine, curcumin, oils & fats, beta glucans, oligosaccharides])

Good low budget food - not a huge meat content, but no wheat or maize, and contains Joint Aid supplement too.

* * * * *

*CSJ (CP21, salmon)*

*Price (15kg):* £30.50
*Suggested daily amount:* ??
*Daily feeding cost:* Don't know since can't find a feeding guide

*Ingredients:* Fresh salmon (min 26%), whole white rice, corn, fish meal, barley, chicken oil, oats, brewers yeast, sugar beet, whole linseed, salmon oil, herbs (marshmallow, peppermint, fenugreek, parsley, rosemary), minerals, vitamins, chicory extract, yucca extract, chondroitin, glucosamine sulphate & MSM

It looks ok on paper - but the salmon is fresh, rather than meal, so once the moisture content has been removed you're left with something stupid like 3% of actual salmon in the food!  Third ingredient is corn - another name for maize - indigestible to dogs! A head and shoulders above Bakers - but still not good, and not something I'd feed.

* * * * *

*ARDEN GRANGE (sensitive, ocean white fish & potato)*

*Price (15kg):* £39.99
*Suggested daily amount:* 220g
*Daily feeding cost:* 58p

*Ingredients:* Potato (min 42%), white fishmeal (haddock] min 26%), beet pulp, chicken oil, linseed, fish oil, dried brewers yeast, egg powder, minerals, vitamins, nucleotides, prebiotic FOS, prebiotic MOS, cranberry extract, chondroitin sulphate, glucosamine sulphate, MSM, yucca extract 

A good grain free food - ideal for sensitive stomachs.

* * * * *

*WAFCOL (chicken & corn)*

*Price (15kg):* £46
*Suggested daily amount:* 300g
*Daily feeding cost:* 92p

*Ingredients:* Corn (59%), poultry meal (21%), soya, soya hulls, seaweed (3.4%), sunflower oil, poultry digest, minerals, mannoligosaccharides (MOS 0.14%), vitamins, brewers yeast 

Shocking!!  Corn is maize - which dogs can't digest - and it makes up 59% of the food! And - it costs more to feed than Acana, Applaws or Orijen!!! Avoid like the plague.

Hope that helps - sorry to hear about your dogs skin conditions - they're no fun


----------



## xxxnickixxx

would the skinners turkey and rice be ok to feed with skin problems ?


----------



## SixStar

xxxnickixxx said:


> would the skinners turkey and rice be ok to feed with skin problems ?


Depends what kind of skin problems? 

But generally, I'd say no - if you've got a dog with any kind of skin problems, a grain free diet is best.


----------



## xxxnickixxx

hot spots and flakey skin .. was looking for one arond the skinners price range


----------



## SixStar

Changing food alone won't heal up hotspots - they need to be treated - clip the fur around them, bathe in hibiscrub, pat dry and then dust with athletes foot powder. If the skin is flaky definately avoid food with cereal - the cheapest grain free you'll get is the Vitalin one I told you about yesterday or the day before, not quite as cheap as Skinners, but the cheapest grain free I know of.

Are you sure the dog hasn't got a flea allergy - with the hotspots and flakiness?


----------



## xxxnickixxx

they not due to be flead yet but im not sure if frontline is a good enough as it used to be... i will be trying the vitilin after we have used the skinners up


----------



## AngusWhitton

Manoy Moneelil said:


> Well done for putting all this data together - but do you not think that the "Suggested daily amount" is meaningless - why not simply quote price per Kilo ?


I agree that is the fairest way to do it - I deal in dog food, and yes I have my favourites, however generally, a lot of the manufacturers are economical with the daily rate figures. Also as Manoy has alluded to, there are now some definitions of what constitutes food, which are so loose, they are too easy to manipulate. Finally, a surprising amount of competing 'big brands' are all processed in one large 'factory' in England.

Also, although price is usually a good indication of quality, too often it is high because of the fortunes spent on advertising and promotion and of course the move by some firms who seem to want to produce a different individual 'blend' for every size, shape, colour, and breed of dog - in the end the consumer pays for all of this.

Angus


----------



## decoratedlady08

xxxnickixxx said:


> hot spots and flakey skin .. was looking for one arond the skinners price range


my dogue de bordeaux had the same thing, as well as loosing weight and being sick on occasion. 
we have just had all his blood work back and he is allergic too barley.

i have been researching barley free diets and found the advanced nutrition food for sensitive stomachs is a good one and he is picking up already

Hope this helps

Suitable for pets with the following dietary requirement(s):

Sensitive stomach, Sensitive Skin, Gluten Free.

Composition:

A complete pet food for adult dogs.

Fresh Trout & Salmon (min. 36%) (Trout min. 21%, Salmon min. 15%), Potato Flakes, Pea Starch, Sugar Beet Pulp, Potato Protein, Salmon Meal, Sunflower Oil, Salmon Oil, Salmon Digest, Minerals, Brewers Yeast, Sodium Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Methionine, Yucca Extract, Marigold Meal, L-Carnitine, Beta Carotene. Total Salmon min. 15%

Additives: Nutritional Additives: Vitamin A 16296µ/kg, Vitamin C 81.5mg/kg, Vitamin D3 2037µ/kg, Vitamin E (∞-Tocopherol) 631.51µ/kg, Biotin 153µ/kg, Iron (as Ferrous Sulphate Monohydrate) 135.8mg/kg, Iodine (as Calcium Iodate Anhydrous) 2.5mg/kg, Copper (as Cupric Sulphate Pentahydrate) 20.4mg./kg, Manganese (as Manganese Sulphate Monohydrate) 79.6mg/kg, Zinc (as Zinc Chelate of Amino Acids) 81.5mg/kg, Selenium (as Sodium Selenite) 0.23mg/kg, Calcium 1.15%, Phosphorus 0.70%, Omega 6 3.04%, Omega 3 1.19%

Analytical Constituents:

Protein: 24% Crude Fibre 3%, Oils & Fats 14%, Crude Ash 8.5%, Moisture 8%

Feeding Guide (approximate per day)

Dogs weight 2.5kg: 50-70g
Dogs weight 5kg: 85-115g
Dogs weight 10kg: 140-190g
Dogs weight 20kg: 235-325g
Dogs weight 30kg: 315-440g
Dogs Weight 40kg: 395-545g
Dogs Weight 50kg+: 10g/kg

Your dog needs to be fed twice a day so halve the above amounts, If your dog hasnt eaten Advanced Nutrition before, gradually introduce over 4 days or so. For nursing dogs, allow an additional 90-120g of food per day. This is a guide only and depends on activity level, age & environment. Please always ensure that fresh drinking water is available. Please refer to the product packaging for full details.


----------



## AngusWhitton

Kivasmum said:


> Great list  and nice to see ww is yellow as that's what I feed kiva. I think the daily feeding prices are a great idea, for instance, its interesting to see that it actually works out cheaper to feed ww instead of bakers! I must say though, some of the prices for the green ones are a little extortionate (sp?) I used to feed my last gsd Tara on harringtons, and although you have it in red, compared to all the other brands available on the asda shelves, harringtons ingredients didn't look anywhere near as bad!


Harringtons is a posh version of 'Wagg'  and whilst it's not one of my favourites it is ok. It does use a lot of maize, but if grain is properly pre-processed, at or before the extrusion process, then it's fine. Too many foods now actually have too much protein in them, especially when you consider how few dogs actually 'work'.

A lot of owners feel embarrassed about 'only' feeding a light or senior diet, when it might in fact be the correct diet for the dog. Dogs may be descended from the wolf but that was an awful lot of years ago....

Angus


----------



## Mum2Heidi

AngusWhitton said:


> I agree that is the fairest way to do it - I deal in dog food, and yes I have my favourites, however generally, a lot of the manufacturers are economical with the daily rate figures. Also as Manoy has alluded to, there are now some definitions of what constitutes food, which are so loose, they are too easy to manipulate. Finally, a surprising amount of competing 'big brands' are all processed in one large 'factory' in England.
> Also, although price is usually a good indication of quality, too often it is high because of the fortunes spent on advertising and promotion and of course the move by some firms who seem to want to produce a different individual 'blend' for every size, shape, colour, and breed of dog - in the end the consumer pays for all of this.
> Angus


Hi Angus,

Welcome to PF :thumbup:

Just wanted to point out that to be fair, I think a lot of people like a RDA as a starting point to work from. When faced with a large sack of food for the first time, quantities can be quite daunting. I know I always look to them as a guide and work from there with my dog. It also helps in the calculation of value for money, if one food recommends to feed more than another - again only a guide which could of course be out but it assists.

Totally agree - Goldenacres has a lot to answer for but their duck and potato own brand is quite good in my opinion. £53 for 30K, with a reasonable daily amount. Comes in v basic packaging which certainly backs up "all that glitters isnt gold"


----------



## Guest

hi i was hoping you could give me your opinion on this dog food Duck and Potato Working Dog Food 30kg, iv been looking for a grain free food for my pup for a while, been feeding him arden grange but he has red rash/very itchy skin and vets say its an allergy, so im hoping its the rice etc in the arden grange :/ i was going to put him on fish 4 dogs but came across this one while searching and the price is great! (just hope the foods that great to )

and just wanted to say huge thanks for this thread! reading through ingredient lists after ingredient lists is mind boggling! and you list made it sooo easy


----------



## SixStar

minikoo132 said:


> hi i was hoping you could give me your opinion on this dog food Duck and Potato Working Dog Food 30kg, iv been looking for a grain free food for my pup for a while, been feeding him arden grange but he has red rash/very itchy skin and vets say its an allergy, so im hoping its the rice etc in the arden grange :/ i was going to put him on fish 4 dogs but came across this one while searching and the price is great! (just hope the foods that great to )
> 
> and just wanted to say huge thanks for this thread! reading through ingredient lists after ingredient lists is mind boggling! and you list made it sooo easy


Looks quite good - reasonable meat content, grain free and a very good price :thumbup:

I'd be happy to use it if I fed kibble - I know Mum2Heidi uses this brand, so hopefully she'll spot this and give her feedback


----------



## Roobster2010

To be honest I fail to see why this has been made into a sticky, it is simply one persons opinion on a selection of dry food/kibble.


----------



## Mum2Heidi

Roobster2010 said:


> To be honest I fail to see why this has been made into a sticky, it is simply one persons opinion on a selection of dry food/kibble.


It's a sticky because a lot of people find that one person's time and effort v helpful in choosing a new food. Hence the praise and gratitude in the posts afterwards.

Re the Duck and Potato. I think it's an excellent middle of the road food. Average RDA, no cereal and good meat content. I'm not certain but I think Goldenacres (the manufacturers of duck and potato)also make AG. They certainly make kibble for a lot of companies. I was told that GA use ingredients for all the foods they make from the same silos. So it may not be as far away from AG as you would think.

I had problems with Heidi and kibble for a long time and had been feeding 100% wet. Ordered a sample of the duck and potato for my son's dog. Heidi got a whiff of it and went mental - my son never got it.


----------



## Guest

hi, thanks for the reply's, well i was coming to the end of the AG so took the plunge and bought some duck and potato, and Toby went mad for it! he's never cleared his bowl so fast  i changed him over gradually mixing it in with the AG i had left, but probably changed him faster than i normally would as the AG ran out :/ (wps didn't judge that well ) anyway he's had no upset stomach and i know its early days and the vet said 4-6 weeks before you can tell for defo if the food has made a difference, and it may be my wishful thinking but im sure he's scratching less already! so fingers crossed the grain free is going to work!!  
i think im going to get him some salmon oil aswell as iv heard good things about it


----------



## ploddingon

Roobster2010 said:


> To be honest I fail to see why this has been made into a sticky, it is simply one persons opinion on a selection of dry food/kibble.


Surely thats what a forum is for - a place for people to air their opinions?

It just happens that many find this thread useful - not everyone wants to feed raw for example but there is ample info on here for people who do.

For those who want to feed dried food to their dogs it is an excellent source of information and so well worth being made a sticky that hopefully will be added to over time.


----------



## Mum2Heidi

minikoo132 said:


> hi, thanks for the reply's, well i was coming to the end of the AG so took the plunge and bought some duck and potato, and Toby went mad for it! he's never cleared his bowl so fast  i changed him over gradually mixing it in with the AG i had left, but probably changed him faster than i normally would as the AG ran out :/ (wps didn't judge that well ) anyway he's had no upset stomach and i know its early days and the vet said 4-6 weeks before you can tell for defo if the food has made a difference, and it may be my wishful thinking but im sure he's scratching less already! so fingers crossed the grain free is going to work!!
> i think im going to get him some salmon oil aswell as iv heard good things about it


That's exactly the same reaction I had with duck and potato and she still loves the stuff (thankfully it likes her too)


----------



## Lyceum

Roobster2010 said:


> To be honest I fail to see why this has been made into a sticky, it is simply one persons opinion on a selection of dry food/kibble.


Wow, sixstar has clearly spent hours on this, put in a lot of time and effort. That's just gathering all the ingredients and working out the price per day. So people can go, have a look at the ingredients and make a decision themselves, compare to other foods in the thread etc,

With responses like this Sixstar really has to wonder why they bothered.

Is A thanks for the time, effort, and willingness to help too much to ask?


----------



## Lyceum

Sixstar, would you consider adding the autarky salmon to the list? It seems much better than the chicken, maize free etc and is only £16.99, might catch the eye of someone on a tight budget.

Also, if you do have the time, maybe bob and lush too? I know it's expensive, but it's a good kibble, the feeding guide is small and they're a small british company just trying to get started. CS is great and when I took advantage of their £25 voucher, they went all out with the order, free measuring mug (proper mug lol, not plastic beaker), mixing spoon, free bags of treats etc.


----------



## SixStar

Lyceum said:


> Sixstar, would you consider adding the autarky salmon to the list? It seems much better than the chicken, maize free etc and is only £16.99, might catch the eye of someone on a tight budget.
> 
> Also, if you do have the time, maybe bob and lush too? I know it's expensive, but it's a good kibble, the feeding guide is small and they're a small british company just trying to get started. CS is great and when I took advantage of their £25 voucher, they went all out with the order, free measuring mug (proper mug lol, not plastic beaker), mixing spoon, free bags of treats etc.


Yep will add those during the day! I can't add any more to the opening post because I've used all available text but will add them on the end here


----------



## SixStar

Lyceum said:


> Sixstar, would you consider adding the autarky salmon to the list? It seems much better than the chicken, maize free etc and is only £16.99, might catch the eye of someone on a tight budget.
> 
> Also, if you do have the time, maybe bob and lush too? I know it's expensive, but it's a good kibble, the feeding guide is small and they're a small british company just trying to get started. CS is great and when I took advantage of their £25 voucher, they went all out with the order, free measuring mug (proper mug lol, not plastic beaker), mixing spoon, free bags of treats etc.


*BOB & LUSH (duck with potato & peas)*

*Price (7.5kg):* £39.99
*Suggested daily amount:* 230g
*Daily feeding cost:* £1.24

*Ingredients:* Fresh duck (24%), duck meal (24%), potatoes (22%), peas (9%), sugar beet pulp (7%), duck fat (6%), duck digest (3%), brewers yeast (2%), linseed (2%), minerals, vitamins, yucca schidigera extract (0.5%), prebiotics MOS (0.2%), FOS (0.2%)

A very good grain free kibble - worthy of a green rating, however it is very expensive in comparison to other grain free foods of similar/better quality. Be very wary of the feeding guide too - the feeding amounts stated on the website are, if you read carefully, per MEAL  (based on the assumption 2 meals a day are fed) - not per DAY. Very crafty and actually makes the daily feeding guide very high! I bet it's caught alot of people out  I'm sure I'm reading it right but link here for you to double check! - Bob & Lush (15kg adult dog)

* * * * *

*AUTARKY (salmon dinner with rice, vegetables & herbs)*

*Price (15kg):* £16.99 (from berriewoods only)
*Suggested daily amount:* 220g
*Daily feeding cost:* 24p

*Ingredients:*Salmon (min 35%), rice (min 33%), oats, chicken fat, yeast, full-fat linseed, alfalfa, prairie meal, peas, unmolassed beet pulp, dicalcium phosphate, mannanoligosaccharides, milkthistle, marigold, mnettle, seaweed, blackcurrant extract, carrot, yucca extract, thyme, beetroot, tomato, peppermint, fennel, paprika, turmeric, dandelion, ginger, fenugreek, roesmary extract, oregano and aloe vera (min 0.4% herbs, min 4% vegetables). 

Wow, where has this one been hiding?! A very good hypoallergenic budget feed - dirt cheap daily feeding cost too! :thumbup:


----------



## Road_Hog

Why is the Barking Heads only mid way food (orange I think, I'm colour blind).

It's good quality food with good ingredients, why has it been marked down?

I'm struggling to see the lack of meat or nastiness in the following.

Ingredients: Fresh lamb (min 26%), rice (min 26%), lamb meat meal (min 26%), ground oats, lamb fat, salmon oil, whole linseed, minerals, dried tomato, seaweed, glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, vitamins


----------



## SixStar

Road_Hog said:


> Why is the Barking Heads only mid way food (orange I think, I'm colour blind).
> 
> It's good quality food with good ingredients, why has it been marked down?
> 
> I'm struggling to see the lack of meat or nastiness in the following.
> 
> Ingredients: Fresh lamb (min 26%), rice (min 26%), lamb meat meal (min 26%), ground oats, lamb fat, salmon oil, whole linseed, minerals, dried tomato, seaweed, glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, vitamins


It doesn't lack meat or have any nasties as such - but it's got a hefty helping of grains! Something dogs do not need in their diets


----------



## Road_Hog

SixStar said:


> It doesn't lack meat or have any nasties as such - but it's got a hefty helping of grains! Something dogs do not need in their diets


Okay, thanks very much for the prompt reply.

I bought a bag (2kg) of this stuff yesterday as I'd looked at the JWB (mainly what I've bought in the past) and felt that they might have downgraded the ingredients from the last time I bought. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this one.

I only use kibble as a mixer (I know it isn't a mixer) for a bit of crunch to go with quality wet food.

Big Foot - Lamb (12kg only)


----------



## Lyceum

SixStar said:


> *BOB & LUSH (duck with potato & peas)*
> 
> *Price (7.5kg):* £39.99
> *Suggested daily amount:* 230g
> *Daily feeding cost:* £1.24
> 
> *Ingredients:* Fresh duck (24%), duck meal (24%), potatoes (22%), peas (9%), sugar beet pulp (7%), duck fat (6%), duck digest (3%), brewers yeast (2%), linseed (2%), minerals, vitamins, yucca schidigera extract (0.5%), prebiotics MOS (0.2%), FOS (0.2%)
> 
> A very good grain free kibble - worthy of a green rating, however it is very expensive in comparison to other grain free foods of similar/better quality. Be very wary of the feeding guide too - the feeding amounts stated on the website are, if you read carefully, per MEAL  (based on the assumption 2 meals a day are fed) - not per DAY. Very crafty and actually makes the daily feeding guide very high! I bet it's caught alot of people out  I'm sure I'm reading it right but link here for you to double check! - Bob & Lush (15kg adult dog)
> 
> * * * * *


That did indeed catch me out, the feeding guide was one of the reasons I asked you to add it, I thought it was very reasonable.


----------



## SixStar

Road_Hog said:


> Okay, thanks very much for the prompt reply.
> 
> I bought a bag (2kg) of this stuff yesterday as I'd looked at the JWB (mainly what I've bought in the past) and felt that they might have downgraded the ingredients from the last time I bought. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this one.
> 
> I only use kibble as a mixer (I know it isn't a mixer) for a bit of crunch to go with quality wet food.
> 
> Big Foot - Lamb (12kg only)


This is Barking Heads new large breed food isn't it? Looks like good stuff - would be an orange rating like the regular Barking Heads kibble


----------



## Road_Hog

SixStar said:


> This is Barking Heads new large breed food isn't it? Looks like good stuff - would be an orange rating like the regular Barking Heads kibble


Okay, I was with you, but now you've lost me. You're rating of foods is wrong. I've spent the last 3 years closely monitoring the ingredients of dog food and I know what is good and what isn't.

Sadly your rating has gone astray, the kibble I posted is good stuff and no where near an orange. I wonder if you're paid by a manufacturer.


----------



## SixStar

Road_Hog said:


> Okay, I was with you, but now you've lost me. You're rating of foods is wrong. I've spent the last 3 years closely monitoring the ingredients of dog food and I know what is good and what isn't.
> 
> Sadly your rating has gone astray, the kibble I posted is good stuff and no where near an orange. I wonder if you're paid by a manufacturer.


Just because my opinions differ from yours does not make me wrong. How awfully rude of you.

I do not believe a dog needs grains in their diet - the food you posted about contains grains, hence it only gets an orange from me. If the food has a considerable amount of grain, it gets classed as an orange in my rating. Simple as. Does not make it a "bad" food by any stretch of the imagine.

I feed raw - I don't use any kibble. Sure, I get paid by a manufacturer don't I?! 

If you know so bleedin' much about dog food yourself, what does my opinion matter anyway?!

I'm fed up with what I say getting picked to pieces - this index is a guide only, it was never intended to be the golden dog food bible - it's MY opinion, and MY opinion only I am not a vet, nor a nutritionist or anything like that.


----------



## hazel pritchard

You list Autarky in the red
I feed this to my very healthy active dogs, both have recently been to vets for yearly jabs and i was told both are healthy dogs , and in great condition.


----------



## SixStar

hazel pritchard said:


> You list Autarky in the red
> I feed this to my very healthy active dogs, both have recently been to vets for yearly jabs and i was told both are healthy dogs , and in great condition.


That's great


----------



## Road_Hog

SixStar said:


> I feed raw - I don't use any kibble. Sure, I get paid by a manufacturer don't I?!
> 
> Im fed up with what I say getting picked to pieces 


Well, boo hoo, if you don't like constructive criticism then don't put your opinion forward and if you only feed raw, then you've got a bit if a cheek being the queen opinion of kibble.

And I'm quite within my rights to call you on your rating of foods. Pretty much all kibble has grains in it, it would be almost 100% meat otherwise.

The Barking Heads stuff is 45% lamb with no nasty stuff in it (no, I don't have any connection with the manufacturer) and in no way can be considered a medium food. All the quality stuff has grains in it, such as JWB and Burns, rice is a main ingredient, it's part of the food.


----------



## SixStar

Road_Hog said:


> Well, boo hoo, if you don't like constructive criticism then don't put your opinion forward and if you only feed raw, then you've got a bit if a cheek being the queen opinion of kibble.
> 
> And I'm quite within my rights to call you on your rating of foods. Pretty much all kibble has grains in it, it would be almost 100% meat otherwise.
> 
> The Barking Heads stuff is 45% lamb with no nasty stuff in it (no, I don't have any connection with the manufacturer) and in no way can be considered a medium food. All the quality stuff has grains in it, such as JWB and Burns, rice is a main ingredient, it's part of the food.


Oh dear, I give up 

You have your opinion, and I'll have mine


----------



## Mum2Heidi

Road_Hog said:


> Okay, I was with you, but now you've lost me. You're rating of foods is wrong. I've spent the last 3 years closely monitoring the ingredients of dog food and I know what is good and what isn't.
> 
> Sadly your rating has gone astray, the kibble I posted is good stuff and no where near an orange. I wonder if you're paid by a manufacturer.


We have wanted a dry and wet food guide here to help people when ploughing thro the minefield of dog food for a v long time.

Sixstar took a lot of time and effort to compile these for us, even tho she feeds raw. If you read the posts in each of them, you will see they are v much appreciated and have already been a great help.

I can see the fresh meat and meat meal in Barking Heads, makes the meat to cereal ratio better than some but nonetheless 26% is still over 1/4 cereal and people using the guides can work that out for themselves.

Your enthusiasm for Barking Heads brings to mind Pot, kettle and black re payment from a manufacturer.


----------



## Lyceum

hazel pritchard said:


> You list Autarky in the red
> I feed this to my very healthy active dogs, both have recently been to vets for yearly jabs and i was told both are healthy dogs , and in great condition.


That's great, doesn't change the ingredients though does it? Which is what the guide is based on. Sadly it's not the 'how your dog does on this food' guide.

My cousins dog has been on Bakers since the day she got it, she's healthy (so says the vet), happy and in great condition. Doesn't make bakers a good food does it?


----------



## Lyceum

Road_Hog said:


> Well, boo hoo, if you don't like constructive criticism then don't put your opinion forward and if you only feed raw, then you've got a bit if a cheek being the queen opinion of kibble.
> 
> And I'm quite within my rights to call you on your rating of foods. Pretty much all kibble has grains in it, it would be almost 100% meat otherwise.
> 
> The Barking Heads stuff is 45% lamb with no nasty stuff in it (no, I don't have any connection with the manufacturer) and in no way can be considered a medium food. All the quality stuff has grains in it, such as JWB and Burns, rice is a main ingredient, it's part of the food.


You're saying Sixstars opinion is wrong, but claiming your own to be right. How is that fair? What if I don't agree with your opinion? Does that make mine right and yours wrong? Until someone comes along and disagrees with mine.

Barking heads uses 26% fresh lamb, that's listed in the ingredients before the moisture is removed, fresh meat is 70% moisture, once that's removed you have a lot less meat meal going into the food. Since you've spent so much time studdying and following ingredients, you'll know this. And you'll know that as a result of this, barking heads end product kibble does not contain 45% meat. Roughly speaking that 26% fresh lamb will end up as about 7% meat meal, so the true meat content is roughly 33%. Not bad, but not 45%. The food is made up of 67% fillers, which is why it gets an orange rating. Simple.

There are plenty of kibble that contain potato instead of grain, or veg.

Your claim to have studied this for so long seems not to ring so true to me, as anyone who did would know barking heads doesn't contain 45% meat, and that a kibble wont have to be 'all meat' to contain no grains. Perhaps you want/like to feed grain. I don't, and I still have plenty of kibble to pick from.

You obviously don't agree with six stars rating, fine, don't use the guide then, simple really. But don't state someone's opinion is wrong while claiming your own as right. And the fact sixstar feeds raw has zero to do with her opinion on kibble. Or do you have no opinion on this unless you use them daily?


----------



## soulful dog

Road_Hog said:


> The Barking Heads stuff is 45% lamb with no nasty stuff in it (no, I don't have any connection with the manufacturer) and in no way can be considered a medium food. All the quality stuff has grains in it, such as JWB and Burns, rice is a main ingredient, it's part of the food.


Barking Heads is clearly one of the better foods, and if you're going to be picky it probably deserves to be an orange+ listed food. But there isn't a secondary category, and it's nowhere near as good as the top quality foods that are all listed in green.

And although it's listed as 45% lamb, that's not a true percentage as the first ingredient is fresh, and once it's been dried, along with the meat meal, the total is nearer 30%. Still pretty good, but not on par with foods like Acana and Orijen.



> And I'm quite within my rights to call you on your rating of foods. Pretty much all kibble has grains in it, it would be almost 100% meat otherwise.


You are quite within your rights to do so, but you also have to accept that you may not be 100% right or that others have a valid opinion. The fact is, the high meat content is only part of it, some of the foods listed in green don't have a higher meat content than the Barking Heads food you linked to. The one thing they do all have in common is they don't contain any grain whatsoever, they all have potatoes & vegetables as their "fillers". Rice is a good quality grain, but it's still grain, which isn't a natural food for dogs.

I've just stumbled across this forum, and although I've already done a fair bit of research of dog foods, I think this thread is great. It may well only be one person's opinion, but for a general, well-summarised view of a decent range of dog food, I think SixStar's guide is pretty damn good. An excellent starting point for anyone interested in what they are feeding their dog.


----------



## swarthy

Opinions on food will ALWAYS be subjective and this is probably what confuses a lot of people about the thread.

Ultimately, you feed your dogs on the best food for THEM (increasingly in these times, balanced with your wallet).

I've known of dogs fed on Chappie dried all their lives, dogs both worked and with also great success in the showring - but have no doubt that it would figure as a 'red', with many almost ashamed to admit they feed it because of subjective perceptions.

I am a great believer in the fact that dogs should have a meat based diet - but that has to be balanced with practicalites and cost. 

My decision to switch to a grain free food was probably more to do with me, because I have coeliac; it took me a long time to find a food that suited my requirements and was affordable for 7 hulking and rather greedy labradors. Foods such as Orijen are a wonderful concept but simply not within the financial reach of a lot of peoplet. 

I now have mine on Simpsons Premium Salmon and Potato - the difference has been quite marked and I struggle with the idea of ever going back to a more commercially available grain based food - I am going to have to do some hard thinking if I take a litter, because I worry about pups being raised on grain free and then it being introduced to their diets later on - would it cause a reaction? I suspect it could. (A lot of people quite simply don't want to buy a food you can only really get hold of online  )

=============================================

With the exception of a few foods which the majority believe are rubbish - views on the rest will remain subjective and you simply won't get people to agree.

If I felt mine needed a change of food, I would probably switch to Barking Heads which has been much heralded by people who feed it.


----------



## Goblin

Road_Hog said:


> And I'm quite within my rights to call you on your rating of foods. Pretty much all kibble has grains in it, it would be almost 100% meat otherwise.


If you don't like the index why not create your own index and post it. I'm sure links could be placed in the original to your new one. Perhaps even better would be a post explaining your opinion on what people should be looking for in kibble ingredient lists and an explanation of what nutritional benefits these ingredients have for a dog. I'm still waiting to find an explanation of why grains are often included and what nutritional value they have for a carnivores diet which justifies it's inclusion. The argument, "most kibbles have them" doesn't wash. That excuse doesn't mean it's right or that it should be included in food for our dogs. All I've found in regards to corn are things like The Truth About Corn in Dog Food So if it's of little nutritional value surely it makes sense to rate food where it forms the bulk of the food down?



> Well, boo hoo, if you don't like constructive criticism then don't put your opinion forward and if you only feed raw, then you've got a bit if a cheek being the queen opinion of kibble.


I guess you don't realize that many raw feeders have done extensive research into the nutritional requirements for dogs, getting past much of the marketing spin put out there by the dog food manufacturers. As such, looking at it from outside they are likely to actually have a far better understanding of what should be contained in food. The fact SixStar made the effort to spread this knowledge to help others, in a simple to digest overview format should be commended.

I look forward to any thread you do make on this subject as there are many people on this forum who have looked into nutrition, additives etc so they can make an educated decision on what to feed their dogs be it dry, wet or raw.


----------



## Popularfurball

I went (totally ignorantly) to the pet shop in panic on Sunday when we picked up Mister Patch - the lady was very thorough in going through the feeds with me and in the end I bought Jollyes own brand Lifestage Chicken. 

Chicken meat meal (min 36%)
corn (min 20%)
rice
barley
chicken oil
sugar beet pulp
brewers yeasts
whole egg
fishmeat
whole linseed (min 4%)
chicory
salmon oil
vitamins
minerals
DL methionine
rosemary

It seems to have a higher meat meal content than the oranges you have listed - and it 

" has been formulated by nutritionists to provide the optimal levels of carbohydrates, proteins, vitamins and minerals in every nutritious and tasty kibble. It also contains the oligosaccharide FOS from a natural source of chicory to help promote a healthy gut and aid digestion."

Also:
Gluten-free
No artificial colours, flavours or preservatives
100% natural ingredients
Omega-3 oils from salmon and linseed
Additional plant extracts and vitamins providing an antioxidant boost
Prebiotic fibres provided in all foods


So on my base from here it would be an orange due to the corn content... but Im wondering if that is (sort of )balanced by the BY and linseed which are fab natural supps (this is from feeding the horses).

Perhaps Im trying to convince myself its not bad  lol. 

Sixstar thanks for this thread, whilst I can see some arguments for the natural vit sources etc, I also appreciate the grain argument too - has been incredibly informative to a first time, unplanned dog owner!!!!!!!


----------



## Balto-x

hey sixstar just wondered how you rate chuddleys classic?

Katie xx


----------



## dragon1998

Just wondered, was Tesco own one mentioned please
dragon1998


----------



## JonoBeagle

This is a great index... 

Boris is certainly a carnivore and we have moved him onto Orijen which is great... From Lily's Kitchen. He prefers the Orijen (we cook for him in the evening), and it is the only dog food that he finishes in one go... It also smells of what is on the label. Fish smells of fish, red meat smells of red meat. 

Cheers.


----------



## SixStar

Balto-x said:


> hey sixstar just wondered how you rate chuddleys classic?
> 
> Katie xx


Hi Katie - here you go. 

*CHUDLEYS (working classic)*

*Price (15kg):* £16
*Suggested daily amount:* 220g
*Daily feeding cost:* 23p

*Ingredients:*Wheat, chicken meat meal, maize, chicken fat, barley, rice, chicken liver, full fat soya, unmolassed beet pulp, dicalcium phosphate, yeast, salmon oil, blackcurrant extract, taurine, seaweed, with EC permitted antioxidants; mixed tocopherols, vitamin C and rosemary extrac 

First ingredient is wheat, which earns it a red from me I'm afraid 

Autarky salmon & rice dinner is a penny dearer per day to feed - but is 33% salmon, and wheat & maize free 



dragon1998 said:


> Just wondered, was Tesco own one mentioned please
> dragon1998


It hasn't been, but I'll do it now. 

*TESCO OWN (beef & country vegetables)*

*Price (6kg):* £5.23
*Suggested daily amount:* 300g
*Daily feeding cost:* 26p

*Ingredients:*Cereals, meat and animal derivatives (minimum 4% beef, minimum 4% fresh meat in), vegetable protein extracts , derivatives of vegetable origin (minimum 1% charcoal), oil and fats ,various sugars minerals, yeasts, antioxidants, BHA, BHT, E153, E172, E172, E155, E202, E102, E133, E330, E338, E282, E200, E297 

Good grief - quite possibly the worst dog food I've seen. Unnamed cereals as the first ingredients, very low meat content and more e-numbers than a tube of Smarties!  If you feed this, please change ASAP - there are lots of better and cheaper options listed in the thread.



JonoBeagle said:


> This is a great index...
> 
> Boris is certainly a carnivore and we have moved him onto Orijen which is great... From Lily's Kitchen. He prefers the Orijen (we cook for him in the evening), and it is the only dog food that he finishes in one go... It also smells of what is on the label. Fish smells of fish, red meat smells of red meat.
> 
> Cheers.


Thanks. Glad your boy is enjoying his grub  I reckon Lilys Kitchen dry catches alot of people out - the wet is fantastic, but the dry is very overpriced and very middle of the road!


----------



## OjoGirl

Thanks for all the info in this link - it's really helpful as I'm looking to switch my pup and have just posted a new thread asking about Kronch dry food. Wondering if you have already rated it and I missed it? Thanks.


----------



## hobbs2004

Hey Sixstar, just wanted to say good effort on your food index so far and a pat on your back. However, I think there is scope for making it an even better list as I personally feel it only tells part of the story and some of the story so far seems a little confused. 

In all fairness, everyone can pull together a list of published ingredients. What is more interesting and useful for people *I think* is to find out about the things that they miss out. You often immediately give foods a red label because they contain a small amount of meat but you fail to acknowledge that they only declare the minimum flavour meat content that they are legally obliged to declare. So, what would bring this list to a whole new level would be to find out how much overall meat content the food contains, and whether that is meat meal (or some other meal) or "fresh" meat/derivatives.

There is a difference in the meat content of dry food depending on whether they declare "fresh" meat as their first, or second ingredient or whether it is meat meal, which I am sure that you know. Ingredients are weighed before they are processed, which means that fresh meat will always weigh more before the moisture gets removed during the manufacturing process, which means that although the meat content sounds impressive at first glance, it gets reduced to not a lot. Perhaps there is a way to acknowledge that too and to have your labelling reflect this somehow.

I don't understand some of the ratings. I don't understand why something like Burns gets an orange rating (though it contains 63% rice), while others such as Hills etc that at least have a meat as their first ingredient get a red? Is this because the latter declare some more of the ingredients that they put in while others would just lob those together under vitamins and minerals, making them sound more unpalatable? 

Lily's kitchen gets an orange, though the first ingredient is a fresh meat and the rest of the ingredients for quite a while on that list are grains and seeds. Not sure I think the orange label is justified. 


Also, ingredients (either declared or undeclared) only tell half of the story. The analysis is surely also important, and again, what is important is not just the macronutrient stuff (such as protein, fat, fibre, ash and moisture) but also the more detailed micronutrient information. 

Overall, I think the list just needs to be tightened up a little and needs to be expanded on with information that isn't on the label.


Overall, I think the most important thing to realise, if you don't mind me saying so, is not to make people rely on this list to make decisions but to give them the tools to make decisions themselves so that when they see a food they can judge its goodness for themselves. 

Anyhow, as I said, good effort so far but onwards and upwards.


----------



## Balto-x

Thanks sixstar loads of help  :thumbup:

rep for you xxx


----------



## SixStar

hobbs2004 said:


> Hey Sixstar, just wanted to say good effort on your food index so far and a pat on your back. However, I think there is scope for making it an even better list as I personally feel it only tells part of the story and some of the story so far seems a little confused.
> 
> In all fairness, everyone can pull together a list of published ingredients. What is more interesting and useful for people *I think* is to find out about the things that they miss out. You often immediately give foods a red label because they contain a small amount of meat but you fail to acknowledge that they only declare the minimum flavour meat content that they are legally obliged to declare. So, what would bring this list to a whole new level would be to find out how much overall meat content the food contains, and whether that is meat meal (or some other meal) or "fresh" meat/derivatives.
> 
> There is a difference in the meat content of dry food depending on whether they declare "fresh" meat as their first, or second ingredient or whether it is meat meal, which I am sure that you know. Ingredients are weighed before they are processed, which means that fresh meat will always weigh more before the moisture gets removed during the manufacturing process, which means that although the meat content sounds impressive at first glance, it gets reduced to not a lot. Perhaps there is a way to acknowledge that too and to have your labelling reflect this somehow.
> 
> I don't understand some of the ratings. I don't understand why something like Burns gets an orange rating (though it contains 63% rice), while others such as Hills etc that at least have a meat as their first ingredient get a red? Is this because the latter declare some more of the ingredients that they put in while others would just lob those together under vitamins and minerals, making them sound more unpalatable?
> 
> Lily's kitchen gets an orange, though the first ingredient is a fresh meat and the rest of the ingredients for quite a while on that list are grains and seeds. Not sure I think the orange label is justified.
> 
> Also, ingredients (either declared or undeclared) only tell half of the story. The analysis is surely also important, and again, what is important is not just the macronutrient stuff (such as protein, fat, fibre, ash and moisture) but also the more detailed micronutrient information.
> 
> Overall, I think the list just needs to be tightened up a little and needs to be expanded on with information that isn't on the label.
> 
> Overall, I think the most important thing to realise, if you don't mind me saying so, is not to make people rely on this list to make decisions but to give them the tools to make decisions themselves so that when they see a food they can judge its goodness for themselves.
> 
> Anyhow, as I said, good effort so far but onwards and upwards.


Hi Hobbs, thanks for the feedback and suggestions - much appreciated. To be honest, I won't be changing the index at all - as great as it'd be to have a super list that included every nutritional element of the food - I simply do not have the time nor desire to do that, if people want to know a food inside out I'm afraid that's research they'll have to do themselves - this index is only a very, very basic rough starting point as I'm sure you can appreciate.

There has been lots of mentions regarding the rating system. I (and I am prehaps in the minority here) do not believe a dog needs ANY grain in their diet - although I believe if you're going to feed grain, then some are better than others - rice, barley and oats for example I feel are 'ok' whereas I despise the use of wheat or maize. Hence why Burns - with a lower meat content than Hills is rated higher - because Burns contains rice whereas Hills has maize.

But like I say - I feel I'm in the minority here regarding dogs and cereals in their food - the majority feel it's fine to include grain in the diet - and thats up to them. However I personally don't - and since this index is based merely *on my opinion* that's why the grain containing foods are rated lower. I'd honestly love to see other people upload their own indexes - the more opinions, the more info and the more informed choices people can make.

But hey, end of the day, I feed BARF style raw - my opinions on what food is good for dogs is always going to differ from a hardcore commercial feeders


----------



## hobbs2004

SixStar said:


> Hi Hobbs, thanks for the feedback and suggestions - much appreciated. To be honest, I won't be changing the index at all - as great as it'd be to have a super list that included every nutritional element of the food - I simply do not have the time nor desire to do that, if people want to know a food inside out I'm afraid that's research they'll have to do themselves - this index is only a very, very basic rough starting point as I'm sure you can appreciate.
> 
> There has been lots of mentions regarding the rating system. I (and I am prehaps in the minority here) do not believe a dog needs ANY grain in their diet - although I believe if you're going to feed grain, then some are better than others - rice, barley and oats for example I feel are 'ok' whereas I despise the use of wheat or maize. Hence why Burns - with a lower meat content than Hills is rated higher - because Burns contains rice whereas Hills has maize.
> 
> But like I say - I feel I'm in the minority here regarding dogs and cereals in their food - the majority feel it's fine to include grain in the diet - and thats up to them. However I personally don't - and since this index is based merely *on my opinion* that's why the grain containing foods are rated lower. *I'd honestly love to see other people upload their own indexes - the more opinions, the more info and the more informed choices people can make.*
> 
> But hey, end of the day, I feed BARF style raw - my opinions on what food is good for dogs is always going to differ from a hardcore commercial feeders


I personally don't think more indices are going to be the answer as I really don't think that ,say, having three different indices on this forum all about dry food would make it any easier for people to make informed decisions. Instead, I think it would confuse people. People (some; perhaps more than just some) come to such an index and use it as a quick fix, particularly if it is as simply presented as this one.

Since you don't want to add to the index - and trust me, i know how much time it takes (though I do think it is perhaps needed more for your wet food index where labels are often a lot less transparent than dry food) - why don't you just add a sentence below each food stating the reason why this label has been given.

I personally strongly believe that giving people information to make their own choices (so that they can understand why they are doing what they are doing) is THE way forward. So, if one wanted to one could use this index and your labelling system as applied examples (very much like the pre-existing dog food index).

Like it or not but by virtue of this being a sticky people will see you as an authority on this subject. So, the more transparent you can make your rating system, the more objective it will be (while still reflecting your own opinion).

TBH, I still don't understand why a food like Burns gets a better rating that the likes of Hills, wheat-free or not. Having that much grain in a food is appaling in my opinion and personally I would rate it as red.


----------



## smokeybear

Just a note not all E numbers are bad!


----------



## alesupper

Hi SixStar

Thanks for that very informative list which is very useful. I currently feed my Labrador Chudley's Working Cruch and wondered if you (or anyone else for that matter) would mind casting an eye on the ingredients and offer your opinion on it please?

Ingredients shown below:-


----------



## SixStar

alesupper said:


> Hi SixStar
> 
> Thanks for that very informative list which is very useful. I currently feed my Labrador Chudley's Working Cruch and wondered if you (or anyone else for that matter) would mind casting an eye on the ingredients and offer your opinion on it please?
> 
> Ingredients shown below:-


Hi Alesupper- thanks for posting ingredients list, much easier for me!

Although first ingredient is chicken meal which is good, it'd still be a red I'm afraid - it has wheat, maize, wheatfeed and priarie meal (maize gluten) - all very low quality cheap fillers with no nutritional value to the dog - you might want to have a look at either Skinners field and trial duck & rice or Autarky salmon dinner - both are budget feeds, but with much better ingredients - they're both listed throughout the thread


----------



## alesupper

SixStar said:


> Hi Alesupper- thanks for posting ingredients list, much easier for me!
> 
> Although first ingredient is chicken meal which is good, it'd still be a red I'm afraid - it has wheat, maize, wheatfeed and priarie meal (maize gluten) - all very low quality cheap fillers with no nutritional value to the dog - you might want to have a look at either Skinners field and trial duck & rice or Autarky salmon dinner - both are budget feeds, but with much better ingredients - they're both listed throughout the thread


Thanks SixStar, that is very much appreciated. I shall be changing his food to one of your orange or green listed foods but I haven't made my mind which one yet, although I do think the Autarky salmon dinner looks like a great food for the price!

Earlier in the thread raw food was mentioned. I would like to feed my lab some raw food occasionally (perhaps once a week) and I wondered if you had any suggestions of what I should give him please?

Thanks again, Alesupper.


----------



## SixStar

alesupper said:


> Thanks SixStar, that is very much appreciated. I shall be changing his food to one of your orange or green listed foods but I haven't made my mind which one yet, although I do think the Autarky salmon dinner looks like a great food for the price!
> 
> Earlier in the thread raw food was mentioned. I would like to feed my lab some raw food occasionally (perhaps once a week) and I wondered if you had any suggestions of what I should give him please?
> 
> Thanks again, Alesupper.


If you have a read through here it should tell you all you need to know - it's super long and a massive read, so just skim through and pick out the bits you need! http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html

If you're just going to be feeding raw occasionally, you'll probably be better off just sticking to chicken - wings, drummers, thighs, quarters, even whole ones - they can eat everything, the bones are absolutely fine raw, it's only when cooked that they become brittle and can splinter.


----------



## JonoBeagle

Six star,

He enjoys the wet which we give him if we are busy and have to go somewhere but without enough time to cook and he gobbles that up.

A friend uses Butchers and said "the ingredients are the same but Lily's is more expensive". I tried to explain calmly that they may be the same, but where those ingredients come from is also important! 

To begin with Lily's was fine because it was new, but he quickly got bored with it...


----------



## soulful dog

hobbs2004 said:


> TBH, I still don't understand why a food like Burns gets a better rating that the likes of Hills, wheat-free or not. Having that much grain in a food is appaling in my opinion and personally I would rate it as red.


I think you just need to see that it's not a straight-forward black and white with grain and grain-free.

It's generally recognised that while grain of any sort is not perfect, rice is deemed a high quality grain that most pets have no problems with. Maize, wheat etc are low quality, some pets can have problems digesting them and others can have allergy problems. There is a big difference between rice and maize.


----------



## hobbs2004

soulful dog said:


> I think you just need to see that it's not a straight-forward black and white with grain and grain-free.
> 
> It's generally recognised that while grain of any sort is not perfect, rice is deemed a high quality grain that most pets have no problems with. Maize, wheat etc are low quality, some pets can have problems digesting them and others can have allergy problems. There is a big difference between rice and maize.


I do understand this difference but we are talking about a food here that contains 60+% rice; so not a lot of meat. By virtue of that proportion that should be a red food.


----------



## SixStar

hobbs2004 said:


> I do understand this difference but we are talking about a food here that contains 60+% rice; so not a lot of meat. By virtue of that proportion that should be a red food.


For a food to be rated red on my list, it would have to fall into this category:



SixStar said:


> Red  these foods are the ones that I feel are extremely poor, and that should be avoided. They tend to have either an inadequate meat content, too many cheap fillers, artificial additives, harmful chemicals, added sugar  or a mixture of all of those!


Burns, although 60% rice and 18-20% meat - does NOT contain artificial additives, harmful chemicals, added sugars, or other cheap fillers (wheat & maize). Hence, although *you* may deem it a very poor quality food - *I* feel it's a reasonable basic diet. I did say that the quality varies immensely in the orange listed foods, and yes, perhaps Burns is at the lower end of the orange rated foods scale.

We, and other members, can argue until we're blue in the face which foods are good and which are bad - it's something we will never agree on. If there was a one size fits all dog food, then that would be the only one on sale - but there isn't - all dogs are different and do better on different foods.


----------



## hobbs2004

SixStar said:


> For a food to be rated red on my list, it would have to fall into this category:
> 
> Burns, although 60% rice and 18-20% meat - does NOT contain artificial additives, harmful chemicals, added sugars, or other cheap fillers (wheat & maize). Hence, although *you* may deem it a very poor quality food - *I* feel it's a reasonable basic diet. I did say that the quality varies immensely in the orange listed foods, and yes, perhaps Burns is at the lower end of the orange rated foods scale.
> 
> *If there was a one size fits all dog food, then that would be the only one on sale - but there isn't - all dogs are different and do better on different foods.*


True, but surely the quality of the food can be objectively evaluated (to some extent if one sets out certain well defined yardsticks; though not everyone is going to agree with them, I grant you that). Whether the dog than eats the food or whether the food actually agrees with them is a different story.

Indeed, in my opinion, even rice (even if it is the most luxurious whole grain rice from the heights of Nepal) is a cheap filler and going by your own definition of red food *I* would say that 18-20% is low meat content. However, it is not the absence and presence of grains that is the issue *I* feel, but the proportion of these fillers in the food - and this appears to be way out of proportion with the remaining of your orange listed foods.

Indeed, quite a lot of your red listed foods tend to be the ones that are quite badly declared - ie. the ones that follow the guidelines required for statutory labelling, which really don't say much at all - maybe that is reason alone why they should be red-rated. My hunch is that once you start looking into them in more detail (should the manufacturers divulge that info) you might find that those who declare "cereals" and "animal derivatives" are just as good as Burns or even better.

Anyhow, I guess we will agree to disagree on the Burns issue. I don't have to buy it.


----------



## alesupper

SixStar said:


> If you have a read through here it should tell you all you need to know - it's super long and a massive read, so just skim through and pick out the bits you need! http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html
> 
> If you're just going to be feeding raw occasionally, you'll probably be better off just sticking to chicken - wings, drummers, thighs, quarters, even whole ones - they can eat everything, the bones are absolutely fine raw, it's only when cooked that they become brittle and can splinter.


Thanks again SixStar. You have already confirmed what I thought because I was planning on giving him raw chicken (including bones) once a week. I read on this thread that you should not give a dog raw and kibble at the same time so when I do feed him raw I will just give him that and nothing else at that feed.

Having done some more reading on the dry food I am edging towards the Skinners Field & Trial range as I think it offers a good balance of quality and value for money. There are three products that I am interested in and I would appreciate your opinion on which one I should go for?

1) Duck & Rice

2) Salmon & Rice

3) Turkey & Rice

#3 Turkey & Rice offers additional joint aid but the other two also contain 
enhanced levels of Glucosamine and Chondroitin so I wonderd if it was worth paying the extra for the Turkey & Rice?

Also, since I am going to be feeding my dog raw chicken once a week I wondered if I should go for the Salmon based mix as this would give him more of a mixed diet?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers, Alesupper


----------



## SixStar

Hi Alesupper 

I've already reviewed the turkey & rice and the duck & rice (below) and to be honest, the salmon one is the same as the duck, but swap the duck for salmon 

*SKINNERS (field and trial, duck & rice)*

*Price (15kg):* £19.99 
*Suggested daily amount:* 190g
*Daily feeding cost:* 25p

*Ingredients:* Rice (40%), duck meat meal (20%), oats, peas, whole linseed, sunflower oil, sugar beet pulp, vitamins and minerals.

* * * * *

*SKINNERS (field & trial, turkey & rice)*

*Price (15kg):* £26.17
*Suggested daily amount:* 190g
*Daily feeding cost:* 33p

*Ingredients:* Whole rice (40%), turkey meat meal (21%), naked oats, peas, linseed, sunflower oil, beet pulp, vitamins, minerals, trace elements, Joint Aid supplement (2% [comprising of glucosamine, chondroitin, collagen, MSM, glutamine, curcumin, oils & fats, beta glucans, oligosaccharides])

Any of those 3 would be absolutely fine, you could even rotate between all 3 flavours at the end of every bag to give plenty of variety providing your boy hasn't got a very sensitive belly. I do have to say I don't think it's worth paying extra for the Joint Aid supplement in the turkey & rice - my way of thinking is that you can add in your own supplements should they be needed!

You sound clued about the raw chicken and not to feed it with kibble, so sounds like you're all set - I bet your boy will love his new grub!


----------



## soulful dog

alesupper said:


> Having done some more reading on the dry food I am edging towards the Skinners Field & Trial range as I think it offers a good balance of quality and value for money.


I came to the same conclusion as you but have given up on the salmon variety as about halfway through a bag, my dog started to get a bit picky with it. We gave him a rest from it and eventually got it finished, but he's a labrador and they aren't exactly well known for being fussy!


----------



## frank07

Hey i recently bought a Labrador and was confused about the dog food. Really helpful forum. Helped me solve a lot of my doubts.

Northwest London primary school


----------



## alesupper

soulful dog said:


> I came to the same conclusion as you but have given up on the salmon variety as about halfway through a bag, my dog started to get a bit picky with it. We gave him a rest from it and eventually got it finished, but he's a labrador and they aren't exactly well known for being fussy!


Thanks for that. I think I will go with SixStar's suggestion and rotate around the three flavours, so it will be interesting to see if my lab dislikes the Salmon also. I will let you know.


----------



## [email protected]

Blimey, I've just read through some of this thread and you're right, food is something we will never all agree on thank goodness!!!!!!!!!! I feed Fish4dogs and have done for years but I havent always fed this. Prior to Fish4dogs I fed Eukanuba to the dogs and Iams to the cats. Prior to that I fed Skinners and prior to that (going back many years now!!) I fed Omega mixed with tripe and prior to that I made up my own with chicken and rice and eggs! When I look at that lot I realise that the more I learnt about diet the better my choices were, for my lot anyway. During this time I had a dog that had a red meat allergy and a dog with pancreatitis so learnt a lot about having to adjust diets to the specific needs of each and every dog I have had. Not all diets will suit all dogs but lets hope that the majority of sensible dog owners will have the wherewithall to ask for help on these forums if they get stuck!!!


----------



## alesupper

SixStar (or anyone else who is experienced with feeding raw)

We have just purchased 10 chicken wings (1kg total) so I guess around 100g per wing. How many wings would you give to a 32kg Labrador for a meal please?

Cheers, Alesupper


----------



## SixStar

alesupper said:


> SixStar (or anyone else who is experienced with feeding raw)
> 
> We have just purchased 10 chicken wings (1kg total) so I guess around 100g per wing. How many wings would you give to a 32kg Labrador for a meal please?
> 
> Cheers, Alesupper


Start him off with just 1 or 2, ease him into it gently to make sure they're going to agree with him! So for example, give 1 or 2 wings for breakfast, and then a slightly larger than normal kibble dinner (to make up for the smaller breakfast). Im not normally a fan of feeding both in the same day, but theres not a lot of choice when introducing small amounts of raw food  and providing the raw is fed first, itll be digested and out of the system before the kibble later in the day.

Once he's ok with a couple, you can increase - although don't be alarmed if he is sick after eating them, it can take dogs a couple of times to get used to eating them, and it's perfectly normal.

The raw feeding rough guideline is 2% or 3% of your dogs body weight daily - so 2% of 32kg would be 640g and 3% would be 960g - if your boy is quite active, go with 3% or if he's prone to being porky, stick with the lower amount - so either approx 6 wings or 9 wings would be a daily ration, and half those if feeding only one meal raw


----------



## alesupper

Thanks again SixStar, I really appreciate it.


----------



## Xena Ragz

Am looking for a bit of advice, i have a 4 month old gsd pup, i have fed her on Arden Grange Puppy Junior fresh chicken and rice since she was 8 week old, the problem is she has always been underweight by around 3kgs, i am wondering if i should change her on to a different kibble, i was thinking of Skinners field and trial duck and rice Adult, can anyone advice me if this would be suitable for her! i do occasionally give her fresh chicken wings which she really enjoys added with peas and carrots. 

Thanks in advance


----------



## soulful dog

I think you should post that question in a new thread Xena, it's possibly being missed here. 

The only thing I'd say is that if you are feeding your dog on a dry puppy food right now, switching to an adult food maybe isn't ideal. Puppy foods tend to be higher in protein, vitamins, etc so switching to an adult food isn't likely to help her put on weight.


----------



## soulful dog

Should add, that if you want to try changing to another brand of food, you don't need to go for the 'junior' type. If you can afford to buy the ones with high quality ingredients, they should be ok. I personally feed my dog on Skinners, but I do alternate it with dry foods like Acana and some fresh meat to up the meat content of his diet.


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

Where do people buy their Skinners duck and rice food from?? I am looking into changing my dog to this and was just wondering where the best place to buy it from is?!


----------



## SixStar

Kittenfostermummy said:


> Where do people buy their Skinners duck and rice food from?? I am looking into changing my dog to this and was just wondering where the best place to buy it from is?!


VetUK do it for £19.95 with free delivery Skinners Field and Trial Duck and Rice Dog Food 15Kg - £19.95


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

SixStar said:


> VetUK do it for £19.95 with free delivery Skinners Field and Trial Duck and Rice Dog Food 15Kg - £19.95


Thank you!!! :thumbup1:


----------



## clairelouise104

Wow that's great!!! Thanks for doing that helped me out with my puppy and my mum has had read throu too......


----------



## xshelly_stanliex

Great thread.

i have mine on csj sooper dooper champ and put them on because i was recommened csj food and this one we choose because of the protein level.

could you give me your opinion on this food 
Sooper Dooper Champ! - CSJ Champ! - CSJK9 Ltd.

from the ingredients ive just looked i dont think it will be a good review.

Im looking too put stan on a hypo allergenic food anyway because of his skin problems at the mo.

thanks michelle


----------



## SixStar

xshelly_stanliex said:


> Great thread.
> 
> i have mine on csj sooper dooper champ and put them on because i was recommened csj food and this one we choose because of the protein level.
> 
> could you give me your opinion on this food
> Sooper Dooper Champ! - CSJ Champ! - CSJK9 Ltd.
> 
> from the ingredients ive just looked i dont think it will be a good review.
> 
> Im looking too put stan on a hypo allergenic food anyway because of his skin problems at the mo.
> 
> thanks michelle


Ingredients: Beef and Chicken Meat Meal, Wheat, Maize, Chicken Fat, Chicken Liver, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Full Fat Linseed, Green Leaf Vegetable, Potassium Chloride, EC permitted natural anti-oxidants, Mixed Tocopherols, Vitamin C and Rosemary Extract

To be honest, pretty awful stuff. Meat meal is the first ingredient which is good, but it doesn't state how much there is and it's a mixed protein source and red meat, which can both aggravate skin conditions. Next two are wheat and maize which are just cheap, needless fillers with absolutely no nutritional value at all - they go in one end and out the other! Wheat and maize also both aggravate skin conditions.

If Stan is ok with rice then Skinners duck & rice or Autarky salmon dinner are both budget hypoallergenic feeds with reasonable ingredients - however, I really would always recommend a grain free diet for a dog with skin conditions - Acana, Orijen, Fish4Dogs, AG Sensitive or James Wellbeloved fish & veg - a bit more expensive, but all have good ingredients and no grains whatsoever. Or there is Vitalin maintenance chicken and potato, which is probably the cheapest grain free kibble available 

I can't find any feeding guidelines for that variety of CSJ so I can't work out feeding costs etc like I have done with the others - but hopefully the review on the ingredients will be helpful. However, as always, it's only my opinion.

Can I ask why you are needing/wanting to feed a high protein kibble?


----------



## xshelly_stanliex

SixStar said:


> Ingredients: Beef and Chicken Meat Meal, Wheat, Maize, Chicken Fat, Chicken Liver, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Full Fat Linseed, Green Leaf Vegetable, Potassium Chloride, EC permitted natural anti-oxidants, Mixed Tocopherols, Vitamin C and Rosemary Extract
> 
> To be honest, pretty awful stuff. Meat meal is the first ingredient which is good, but it doesn't state how much there is and it's a mixed protein source and red meat, which can both aggravate skin conditions. Next two are wheat and maize which are just cheap, needless fillers with absolutely no nutritional value at all - they go in one end and out the other! Wheat and maize also both aggravate skin conditions.
> 
> If Stan is ok with rice then Skinners duck & rice or Autarky salmon dinner are both budget hypoallergenic feeds with reasonable ingredients - however, I really would always recommend a grain free diet for a dog with skin conditions - Acana, Orijen, Fish4Dogs, AG Sensitive or James Wellbeloved fish & veg - a bit more expensive, but all have good ingredients and no grains whatsoever. Or there is Vitalin maintenance chicken and potato, which is probably the cheapest grain free kibble available
> 
> I cant find any feeding guidelines for that variety of CSJ so I cant work out feeding costs etc like I have done with the others  but hopefully the review on the ingredients will be helpful. However, as always, its only my opinion.
> 
> Can I ask why you are needing/wanting to feed a high protein kibble?


Thank you for the reply after reading through the thread i didnt think it would get a very good review, I will be looking at these foods too change them on too, tara n hooch will be on one of a better quality dosnt need too be hypo-all but stan will be on a hypo allergenic because of his skin.

My oh was advised too feed hooch a higher protein diet was told it was better and when we moved in i never questioned it and thats why we put them onto csj sooper dooper champ stan was on csj but a different one of theres before. Tbh i never use too pay attention too there diet over the last few months i have been paying much more attention to there diet and looking too change onto whats better for them and now stans got issues with his coat im even more interested in whats the best for him.

They have prize choice mince meat mixed in with there biscuits aswel and i cook it. and am doing my research into whats the best things too add too there food that are beneficial too them.

Can you give any advice on prize choice mince meat is it any good? or should i stop that ??

Thanks for taking the time too respond and for advising me


----------



## SixStar

The Prize Choice meat is fine - I always prefer to feed meat raw but if you are adding it to kibble then you are doing the right thing by cooking it as raw meat shouldn't be fed at the same time as kibble! I don't know what Prize Choice variety you use but it might be worth sticking to hypoallergenic meats for the boy with skin conditions - so meat such as chicken, fish, lamb and turkey and avoiding beef, tripe and pork for the time being at least, and make sure to stretch dietary changes to his treats too 

Autarky salmon dinner (if brought from Berriewoods) costs just £3 per bag more than your current feed but is SO much better - high in salmon (great for the skin and coat!), has no wheat or maize, is hypoallergenic and would be much better for all your 3 I'm sure - I know Hooch and Tara don't need hypoallergenic diets but you'll find most of the decent kibbles are anyway.


----------



## xshelly_stanliex

SixStar said:


> The Prize Choice meat is fine - I always prefer to feed meat raw but if you are adding it to kibble then you are doing the right thing by cooking it as raw meat shouldn't be fed at the same time as kibble! I don't know what Prize Choice variety you use but it might be worth sticking to hypoallergenic meats for the boy with skin conditions - so meat such as chicken, fish, lamb and turkey and avoiding beef, tripe and pork for the time being at least, and make sure to stretch dietary changes to his treats too
> 
> Autarky salmon dinner (if brought from Berriewoods) costs just £3 per bag more than your current feed but is SO much better - high in salmon (great for the skin and coat!), has no wheat or maize, is hypoallergenic and would be much better for all your 3 I'm sure - I know Hooch and Tara don't need hypoallergenic diets but you'll find most of the decent kibbles are anyway.


Thanks for the reply, i have gone and got some wainwrights too try him on and also got him some prize choice fish blocks.

Frozen Minced White Fish
Wainwright's Adult Complete Dog Food with Salmon & Potato 2kg and 15kg | Pets at Home

Hopefully i will see some improvement, he had the fish cooked with the biscuits and carrots added aswel as his yumega oil. 
Went down a treat he loved it.

FIngers crossed. now im just looking too see what too put the other 2 on. gonna have a good look through your list of foods.

Thanks again michelle


----------



## xshelly_stanliex

What are your thoughts on this food?

Advanced Nutrition Sensitive Dog Food 2.5kg & 10kg | Pets at Home

I saw this is pets at home first time im seen it, does it look any good?


----------



## Lyceum

xshelly_stanliex said:


> What are your thoughts on this food?
> 
> Advanced Nutrition Sensitive Dog Food 2.5kg & 10kg | Pets at Home
> 
> I saw this is pets at home first time im seen it, does it look any good?


Not to step on sixstars toes but I am actually shocked by this, it's called advanced nutrition, and then at the bottom says '15% salmon', the fresh meat looks okay at 36% but once the moisture is removed you'll be left with 12% meat. So pets at home consider an advance nutritious diet for a dog to only need 15% meat??????? Someone needs to have a word with whoever is in charge there lol. The chicken ones only meat ingredient is 24% fresh chicken. I do believe that makes about 6% meat in total.


----------



## SixStar

I can't add anything to what Lyceum has already said! 

Although do remember the Advance Nutrition does contain trout in addition to salmon, so the overall meat (or fish, rather) content is higher than the 15% salmon stated.

It's not a bad food by any means but you can get much better for less - with clearer ingredients lists!


----------



## Lyceum

SixStar said:


> I can't add anything to what Lyceum has already said!
> 
> Although do remember the Advance Nutrition does contain trout in addition to salmon, so the overall meat (or fish, rather) content is higher than the 15% salmon stated.
> 
> It's not a bad food by any means but you can get much better for less - with clearer ingredients lists!


I did include both the salmon and the trout, total fresh fish is 36%, after moisture that only comes to 12% (ish), shocking really isn't it? My mild outrage is more about them advertising it as 'advanced nutrition', blooming cheek! Right, rant over lol.


----------



## SixStar

Lyceum said:


> I did include both the salmon and the trout, total fresh fish is 36%, after moisture that only comes to 12% (ish), shocking really isn't it? My mild outrage is more about them advertising it as 'advanced nutrition', blooming cheek! Right, rant over lol.


Oh right, sorry! I know that fresh meat when used in a dry food will reduce down to much less when the moisture is removed, but I don't know how to work it out! 

Basically Shelley, you should be looking for meat meal used in a dry food rather than fresh - confusing I know!


----------



## xshelly_stanliex

Lyceum said:


> Not to step on sixstars toes but I am actually shocked by this, it's called advanced nutrition, and then at the bottom says '15% salmon', the fresh meat looks okay at 36% but once the moisture is removed you'll be left with 12% meat. So pets at home consider an advance nutritious diet for a dog to only need 15% meat??????? Someone needs to have a word with whoever is in charge there lol. The chicken ones only meat ingredient is 24% fresh chicken. I do believe that makes about 6% meat in total.


Thanks will be staying well away from that then  x


----------



## xshelly_stanliex

SixStar said:


> Oh right, sorry! I know that fresh meat when used in a dry food will reduce down to much less when the moisture is removed, but I don't know how to work it out!
> 
> Basically Shelley, you should be looking for meat meal used in a dry food rather than fresh - confusing I know!


Very, i thought meat meal was all the crap meat ???

shelly x


----------



## SixStar

xshelly_stanliex said:


> Very, i thought meat meal was all the crap meat ???
> 
> shelly x


Not at all! Meat meal is meat with the moisture content removed (which has to be done to put it in a dry food) - so if a food says 30% chicken _meal_ for example, then there a whole 30% chicken in that food. Whereas if a food says 30% _fresh_ chicken, once the moisture has been removed, the actual meat content in the food reduces drastically.

I think you are confusing derivatives with meat meal - derivatives are the ones to avoid, that's all the scrap parts of the animal like feather, beaks etc - but meat meal is good!

They don't make this dog food lark easy to understand do they?


----------



## xshelly_stanliex

SixStar said:


> Not at all! Meat meal is meat with the moisture content removed (which has to be done to put it in a dry food) - so if a food says 30% chicken _meal_ for example, then there a whole 30% chicken in that food. Whereas if a food says 30% _fresh_ chicken, once the moisture has been removed, the actual meat content in the food reduces drastically.
> 
> I think you are confusing derivatives with meat meal - derivatives are the ones to avoid, that's all the scrap parts of the animal like feather, beaks etc - but meat meal is good!
> 
> They don't make this dog food lark easy to understand do they?


Lol yes the derivatives was the one, thank you for claring that up makes much more sense now  x


----------



## CheddarS

Hello, my first post and really hope you can help my dilemma. I have a beautiful (of course) Weimaraner who is 14 weeks old. He is currently on Royal Canine for Maxi Junior which he seems to like. He also has Frolic, dried and fresh chicken as a training treat. He does however have a really sensitive stomach (i am sure not helped by eating rubbish like rabbit poo) and so I am a) looking to move him to better food, and b) how to do it without dire consequences. 

Any advice on what and how is really welcome.


----------



## SixStar

Hi CheddarS, any of the green listed foods would be a brilliant choice for your little one - you needn't worry about puppy food, adult food is just fine. To change a diet without unsettling a tum too much just introduce the new food very slowly, adding just a few bits to the old food, and then gradually increasing the new food whilst reducing the old


----------



## netpetshop

Your indexing of dry food for dogs is very useful. Dry food is good food to give your dogs. Dry food can easily store and measure out as well. And, this food is less expensive.


----------



## Amy-manycats

Netpetshop can you explain exactly why dehydrated food is good? By that I hope you mean ziwipeak and real meat not kibble which is something else entirely IMO . What is "burn" food? (I have heard of Burns about 60% rice not sure when wild dogs started hunting rice as the majority or their diet .

Sorry but I think you have just tried to advertise, I do not believe you are trying to add anything to the discussion nor help pet owners, only further you own business.


----------



## totallypets

This is a fascinating discussion. Having picked up my first dog yesterday from Many Tears Animal Rescue in Wales - a beautiful german pointer x visla aged 4 1/2, I am looking to find a good food for her.

I wondered what you think of Delta Premium and CSJ No Grainer as foods.

Delta Premium Adult Maintain

No Grainer! - CSJ Original Dog Food - CSJK9 Ltd.

She had an upset tummy so has had coley and rice for dinner and breakfast which seems to have done the trick, but now reading this discussion I wonder if there is a better food to settle an upset tummy which doesn't involve rice?


----------



## Pointermum

SixStar said:


> *AUTARKY (salmon dinner with rice, vegetables & herbs)*
> 
> *Price (15kg):* £16.99 (from berriewoods only)
> *Suggested daily amount:* 220g
> *Daily feeding cost:* 24p
> 
> *Ingredients:*Salmon (min 35%), rice (min 33%), oats, chicken fat, yeast, full-fat linseed, alfalfa, prairie meal, peas, unmolassed beet pulp, dicalcium phosphate, mannanoligosaccharides, milkthistle, marigold, mnettle, seaweed, blackcurrant extract, carrot, yucca extract, thyme, beetroot, tomato, peppermint, fennel, paprika, turmeric, dandelion, ginger, fenugreek, roesmary extract, oregano and aloe vera (min 0.4% herbs, min 4% vegetables).
> 
> Wow, where has this one been hiding?! A very good hypoallergenic budget feed - dirt cheap daily feeding cost too! :thumbup:


I've ordered this for Shelby to try, i'm currently waiting in for it to be delivered :lol: I'll let you know how she gets on.

Sixstar well done :thumbup1:


----------



## Guest

My girlies are happy and thriving on Skinners Field and Trial  xx


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## Guest

For me, and in my opinion, there is no "right" dog food, quality will vary from food to food and at the end of the day it what suits your dog. I have been through numerous foods for my dogs. Including Orijen, and because it was so rich, it sent my dogs bowels crazy!! (Sorry for TMI) I have read and read and read into so many foods!! In the end I gave up reading other peoples opinions and trial and tested the foods on my dogs myself to see what they would choose and thrive off. I monitored the difference in them, weight gain, amounts of poop, coat condition etc etc And in the end I opted with Skinners Field and Trial, they eat all their meals up, my Greyhound has put on alot of weight and has stabilised at a good, steady weight, their coats are fab, my terriers dry skin isn't dry anymore and they love it  I love it too for the price!! And it's all trial and error and learning on the way!! Ages ago, I fed foods like Wagg, Royal Canin, JWB etc and recently I have fed foods like Orijen, Skinners, Burns etc but settled at Skinners. I have learnt alot whilst choosing a food that is right for my dogs and I am more than happy with the outcome! I also add sardines, chicken etc occasionally as a little treat for them. Do what is right for YOU and YOUR DOGS not what is right for other peoples!!


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## xshelly_stanliex

Can you please tell me out of these two which is better

James wellbeloved ocean white fish and rice and skinners field n trial salmon and rice.

Skinners Field & Trail Salmon And Rice
James Wellbeloved Adult Complete Dog Food with Fish & Rice 2kg and 15kg | Pets at Home

I have stan on james wellbeloved ocean white fish and rice which im happy hes doing well on it but i want too change the other two too something different than the csj and just woundered how the two compared.

Thank you


----------



## SixStar

Out of the two I'd personally go with James Wellbeloved ocean white fish & rice - but only because I used JWB for a good fifteen years alongside raw and never had any problems with it, I always found it good stuff. But that said - I do find it hard to recommend it over over Skinners, merely because the ingredients aren't too dissimiliar, yet the JWB is much expensive than Skinners!!

So - either would be a good choice! The only big difference between the two is the price, so it depends what your budget is!


----------



## xshelly_stanliex

SixStar said:


> Out of the two I'd personally go with James Wellbeloved ocean white fish & rice - but only because I used JWB for a good fifteen years alongside raw and never had any problems with it, I always found it good stuff. But that said - I do find it hard to recommend it over over Skinners, merely because the ingredients aren't too dissimiliar, yet the JWB is much expensive than Skinners!!
> 
> So - either would be a good choice! The only big difference between the two is the price, so it depends what your budget is!


Thanks for that tbh i didnt think skinners was a good food till having a little look i thought it was not so good as its so cheap.

After looking i thought the only major difference was the price but wasnt sure if any of the ingredients were drap in skinners.
Its ok if im having the james wellbeloved just for stan but for all 3 its alot of money.

Im gonna try the salmon n rice and see how they get on.

Thanks fot the help and advice.

Michelle


----------



## XMaizieX

How does Skinners Duck and Rice compare to Arden Grange. Im strugling to find Arden Grange for under £30 recently.


----------



## SixStar

XMaizieX said:


> How does Skinners Duck and Rice compare to Arden Grange. Im strugling to find Arden Grange for under £30 recently.


I'd choose Skinners duck & rice over Arden Grange personally - AG may have more meat, but Skinners is maize free - and that puts it above AG for me.


----------



## Pointermum

XMaizieX said:


> How does Skinners Duck and Rice compare to Arden Grange. Im strugling to find Arden Grange for under £30 recently.


If you use the lamb and rice it's £54.96 delivered *IF* you buy two bags ARDEN GRANGE ADULT 15KG with lamb & rice| Arden Grange Dog Food | GJW Titmuss


SixStar said:


> I'd choose Skinners duck & rice over Arden Grange personally - AG may have more meat, but Skinners is maize free - and that puts it above AG for me.


My two didn't get on with the duck skinners, nether cared for the taste of it and Shelby was sick often after eating it  very strange as she eats everything !


----------



## XMaizieX

SixStar said:


> I'd choose Skinners duck & rice over Arden Grange personally - AG may have more meat, but Skinners is maize free - and that puts it above AG for me.


May give it a go. Maizie is prone to skin problems/ allergies. IS it just the Duck and Rice and Salmon and Rice which are good foods?


----------



## SixStar

XMaizieX said:


> May give it a go. Maizie is prone to skin problems/ allergies. IS it just the Duck and Rice and Salmon and Rice which are good foods?


In the Skinners field and trial range the salmon & rice, duck & rice and turkey & rice are all good foods 

If your girl has skin problems/allergies though, a grain free food would really be the best bet.


----------



## XMaizieX

SixStar said:


> In the Skinners field and trial range the salmon & rice, duck & rice and turkey & rice are all good foods
> 
> If your girl has skin problems/allergies though, a grain free food would really be the best bet.


She does do well on the Arden Grange, So you think that the Skinners would be a better choice for her?


----------



## SixStar

XMaizieX said:


> She does do well on the Arden Grange, So you think that the Skinners would be a better choice for her?


If it's not broken, why try and fix it?


----------



## XMaizieX

Because im strugling to get the Arden Grange for a good price this month. Used to buy it from a ebay seller for £25 delivered but the seller doesnt have any at the moment. Also Maizies been having a few skin problems recently so I have been looking for a better food in that price range


----------



## Mum2Heidi

What about the salmon and potato here Working Dog Food Adult Dog food | WorkingHPRs
Works out a bit cheaper for 30K and cereal free:thumbup1:


----------



## XMaizieX

Lilb said:


> I just happened to poke my head in here and I got my last order from The Pet Express - Dry Dog Food - The Pet Express
> 
> I ordered 6 bags for £149 but they've whacked £10 onto the price since. Still, works out to £26.50 per bag.


Just ordered 15kg Skinners Duck and Rice off Medicanimal.com for £19.10 with free delivery and 10% cashback through quidco


----------



## derek hunter

hi there
try this place good for barf etc just starting website but getting there allways good prices with fantastic service

petsyoulove.co.uk


----------



## SixStar

derek hunter said:


> hi there
> try this place good for barf etc just starting website but getting there allways good prices with fantastic service
> 
> petsyoulove.co.uk


There's another stickied thread with info for raw food suppliers, maybe it'd be best if you posted there instead?


----------



## daisy1985

this is very importen to me..now i can give different foods in time to time for my dog..
thanx


----------



## daisy1985

hi,
this is very importen to me..now i can give different foods in time to time for my dog..
thanx


----------



## Bellaboo1

I changed mytwo onto AG lamb ad rce a few months back and they have been fab on t, even my lurcher who gets colitis has been great on it. Despite the fact it has maize in it.

I tried her on Skinners salmon and rice and the duck but she had sloppy poo on it.

I have been getting my AG from Feedem who are doing 2 x 15kg bags for £52 inc delivery


----------



## vickieb

Oh, and here was me thinking I was buying a good brand in Royal Canin......

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm good 'dog' food for thought


----------



## sallygunes

dont suppose you know anything about symply complete food wether or not it is any good ??


----------



## cinnamontoast

Review for dried red rated foods (all contain BHT or BHA or both, a known carcinogen. This is explicit, not implicit, in the reviews)

Review for Bakers:
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=424&cat=all

Review for Wagg dried food:
Dog Food Reviews - Wagg Complete Worker - Powered by ReviewPost

Review for Pedigree:
Dog Food Reviews - Pedigree with Chicken, Rice & Vegetables - Powered by ReviewPost


----------



## cinnamontoast

sallygunes said:


> dont suppose you know anything about symply complete food wether or not it is any good ??


Probably ok for a resting diet e.g. If a dog has been unwell. Ethically, it sounds good (no battery farm turkey, 'meadow' raised lamb) but minimum 26% rice, 2nd highest ingredient, then rice Bran then rice flour then oats, none of which are of any use to a dog.

It also contains beet pulp, the residue left after sugar is extracted from beets, controversial possible filler and dried egg, which thedogfoodanalysis website states is not as useful as fresh egg.

I wouldn't rate it very highly, but it is free of the controversial preservatives contained in some commercial feeds. IMO, you're better off getting a feed with less fillers.

Turkey & Rice Adult dog food from Symply


----------



## SixStar

cinammontoast said:


> Review for dried red rated foods (all contain BHT or BHA or both, a known carcinogen. This is explicit, not implicit, in the reviews)
> 
> Review for Bakers:
> Dog Food Reviews - Wagg Complete Worker - Powered by ReviewPost
> 
> Review for Wagg dried food:
> Dog Food Reviews - Wagg Complete Worker - Powered by ReviewPost
> 
> Review for Pedigree:
> Dog Food Reviews - Pedigree with Chicken, Rice & Vegetables - Powered by ReviewPost


Thanks for posting those - although the Wagg review is listed twice, with no Bakers review 

In Sainsburys earlier Bakers was on 2 bags for £10 - the shelves were cleared completely


----------



## xkimxo

I have just ordered 2 trial packs of Acana to see if my dogs like it. They are currently on RC breed specific (they do get applaws wet a few times a week too). After reading a thread on RC yesterday someone (cearott?) mentioned about dogs getting an orange tinge on their coats. Boston has tinges on his white coat which i put down to his tear stains when he sleeps leaning on himself but now im not so sure. I know this has been said many times but thank you Sixstar for making chosing a dog food easier, i find it one of the most confusing things.


----------



## Steeleye Span

Thank you so much for this index. I've spent some time in recent weeks investigating a variety of foods and I found this index invaluable as a starting point.


----------



## Loaf

I have my sbt 6 month old pup on Connolly's Red Mills Leader Puppy.

Is it any good?

Here is the ingredients in descending order by weight.

Dehydrated Chicken Meat (30% Min ), Maize, Rice, Poultry Fat, Fishmeal, Prairie Meal, Salmon Oil, Linseed, Dried Whole Eggs, Skim Milk Powder, Minerals And Vitamins, Savoury Chicken Gravy, Chicory Extract, Yeast Extract

I would love to put him on Orijen, but I cant find it anywhere.


----------



## Loaf

I have my pup on Connolly's Red Mills Leader Puppy

Ingredients (in descending order by weight)
Dehydrated Chicken Meat (30% Min ), Maize, Rice, Poultry Fat, Fishmeal, Prairie Meal, Salmon Oil, Linseed, Dried Whole Eggs, Skim Milk Powder, Minerals And Vitamins, Savoury Chicken Gravy, Chicory Extract, Yeast Extract

Is it any good?


----------



## sallygunes

cinammontoast said:


> Probably ok for a resting diet e.g. If a dog has been unwell. Ethically, it sounds good (no battery farm turkey, 'meadow' raised lamb) but minimum 26% rice, 2nd highest ingredient, then rice Bran then rice flour then oats, none of which are of any use to a dog.
> 
> It also contains beet pulp, the residue left after sugar is extracted from beets, controversial possible filler and dried egg, which thedogfoodanalysis website states is not as useful as fresh egg.
> 
> I wouldn't rate it very highly, but it is free of the controversial preservatives contained in some commercial feeds. IMO, you're better off getting a feed with less fillers.
> 
> Turkey & Rice Adult dog food from Symply


thanks very much just made the change to orijen puppy feeding half and half at the moment till hes used to it but imo i think he already loves it as its not in the bowl two minutes


----------



## caine

ive always used wagg working dog feed i cant fault it my dogs have had some of the so called top brainds and walked away from the bowl even my greyhouds when i had them wagg just seems to suit my dog now and my greyhounds when i had them some off my friends dogs have sensitive stomaches soon as i told them about wagg it helped thre dogs loads im not a promoter off waggs i just cant fault it at all everyone is diffrent i guess


----------



## cinnamontoast

caine said:


> ive always used wagg working dog feed i cant fault it my dogs have had some of the so called top brainds and walked away from the bowl even my greyhouds when i had them wagg just seems to suit my dog now and my greyhounds when i had them some off my friends dogs have sensitive stomaches soon as i told them about wagg it helped thre dogs loads im not a promoter off waggs i just cant fault it at all everyone is diffrent i guess


I already posted this but here you go again:
Dog Food Reviews - Wagg Complete Worker - Powered by ReviewPost

It contains a known cancer causing ingredient, dirt cheap ingredients and is extremely poor food, cheapest in the supermarket, normally. Externally, your dog may look fine, you have noidea about internally. My dog was fine one day, PTS two days after we noticed him wobbling. Stomach and spine cancer. My vet says stomach cancer is usually directly linked to nutrtion. Can you guess what he was fed?


----------



## vickieb

ok so.... just trying to get head round this.....

rice is bad then?? and shpould not be 1st ingred? 

Im looking for dry food that is mainly meat right??

was thinking james wellbeloved but just seen 1st ingredient is Rice...... 

I cannot get the Green foods near me...... no one sells them


----------



## SixStar

vickieb said:


> ok so.... just trying to get head round this.....
> 
> rice is bad then?? and shpould not be 1st ingred?
> 
> Im looking for dry food that is mainly meat right??
> 
> was thinking james wellbeloved but just seen 1st ingredient is Rice......
> 
> I cannot get the Green foods near me...... no one sells them


Rice isn't bad as such - but it's a grain, and dogs don't need grain in their diets, but yes, meat really should be first ingredient.

All of the green foods are available online 

But! James Wellbeloved isn't a bad food by any means.


----------



## Mum2Heidi

Another thing to watch is that sometimes when meat is the first ingredient listed, cereals can be listed individually and add up to a larger %


----------



## LisaZonda

I just found something quite interesting about Pedigree pet food.

I had previously had a look through this Dry Dog Food Index (good work by the way SixStar, it must have taken you ages!) and I noticed that the Pedigree Puppy food has not only very different ingredients...you would of course expect that with puppies nutritional needs being different...but the meat content is massively different too.

I didn't buy this food for my puppy, the only reason I noticed it is because I work from home for a consumer research company and my job involves sourcing different products from supermarkets and translating the product information from French to English.

The meat content on your adult product contains min 4% beef (I have noticed that the majority of supermarket foods contain min 4% meat, whatever brand)...but the puppy one that I worked on contains 20% meat.

Here are the differences :

Your info on adult food...

PEDIGREE (beef, rice & vegetables)

Ingredients: Cereals, meat and animal derivatives (min 4% beef), oils and fats, vegetable protein extracts, derivatives of vegetable origin, vegetables (min 4% carrots, min 4% green beans), minerals.

My info on puppy food I copied and pasted from work...

Pedigree Chiot croissance & protection au poulet et au riz (Pedigree puppy developement & protection with chicken and rice)

Ingredients : cereals (rice 14%, corn 14%), meat and animal derivatives (chicken 20%), oils and fats (of which fish oils 0.5%), derivatives of vegetable origin (dehydated beetroot pulp 5%), vegetable protein extracts, minerals, antioxidants.

nutritional additives (vitamin A : 19240UI/kg, vitamin D3 : 1765UI/kg, vitamin E : 280mg/kg, vitamin B1 : 15mg/kg, vitamin B2 48mg/kg, vitamin B6 19mg/kg, vitamin B9 3.7mg/kg, vitamin B12 0.1mg/kg, vitamin B5 118mg/kg, vitamin B3 115mg/kg, biotin 0.6mg/kg, anhydrous calcium iodate 3.4mg/kg, pentahydrate copper sulphate 33mg/kg, monohydrate manganese sulphate 215mg/kg, sodium selenite 0.2mg/kg, monohydrate zinc sulphate 505mg/kg, EPA & DHA 1600mg/kg, iron 127mg/kg, glucosamine 126mg/kg)

Now, there is every possibility that I'm being a bit thick here  I'm thinking maybe a protein thing, but I don't really understand why the meat content should vary so hugely in these products...any ideas?


----------



## caine

cinammontoast said:


> I already posted this but here you go again:
> Dog Food Reviews - Wagg Complete Worker - Powered by ReviewPost
> 
> It contains a known cancer causing ingredient, dirt cheap ingredients and is extremely poor food, cheapest in the supermarket, normally. Externally, your dog may look fine, you have noidea about internally. My dog was fine one day, PTS two days after we noticed him wobbling. Stomach and spine cancer. My vet says stomach cancer is usually directly linked to nutrtion. Can you guess what he was fed?


as ive said i have used it for years and not one off my dogs have become ill or any problems from wagg as i have said everyone has diff opinions


----------



## TobyBoxer

very usefull i will use this topick some food for toby.


----------



## cinnamontoast

Lisa, I reckon to encourage growth (I'd say growth as opposed to development as a translation). Puppies are growing so need higher protein, adults need maintenance, according to manufacturers of the two different foods. Bit of a myth, really.


----------



## Goblin

Dog food companies go by something called nutrient profiles. One example can be found at AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles
If a food matches this it is classified as "complete". Of course it doesn't matter if your dog can digest the nutrients so long as a lab can confirm it matches.

I've never had an answer why protein as a % matters when adding junk into food can change it so easily. For comparison raw food (meat) provides ballpark figures of 22-29% protein and around 70% water.

I know the Orijin White Paper explains why % shouldn't be trusted like this:


> Say you've got a pair of old leather boots… some used motor oil… and a scoop of sawdust. Now, grind them all up… blend them together… and send that whole concoction to a food testing laboratory… for analysis. And the results? This toxic medley of rubbish contains…
> 
> Protein 32%
> Fat 18%
> Fiber 3%
> 
> Now, if you look only at the "raw data"… the numbers make this funky brew look pretty good… in fact, just as good as any quality dog food. The leather provides the protein. The motor oil supplies the fat And the sawdust contributes the fiber.
> 
> Not exactly something you'd ever want to feed your dog. See how easy it is to be fooled?


----------



## Goblin

LisaZonda said:


> Cereals, meat and animal derivatives (min 4% beef), oils and fats, vegetable protein extracts, derivatives of vegetable origin, vegetables (min 4% carrots, min 4% green beans), minerals.
> 
> cereals (rice 14%, corn 14%), meat and animal derivatives (chicken 20%), oils and fats (of which fish oils 0.5%), derivatives of vegetable origin (dehydated beetroot pulp 5%), vegetable protein extracts, minerals, antioxidants.


Derivatives is a method used by the manufacturers to source whatever is cheapest at the current time without having the need to change the label. I am not sure but I view it as 4% of the total meat derivatives is beef for one and 20% of the total meat derivatives is chicken for the other with nothing to do with actual protein level.


----------



## LisaZonda

Goblin said:


> Derivatives is a method used by the manufacturers to source whatever is cheapest at the current time without having the need to change the label. I am not sure but I view it as 4% of the total meat derivatives is beef for one and 20% of the total meat derivatives is chicken for the other with nothing to do with actual protein level.


I'm sure the word "derivatives" actually means, in layman's terms, all the old bits of crap left over.

I am definitely no expert on all this nutrition stuff and I have no idea what a dog's daily nutritional needs are when broken down into proteins, carbs etc, however because of the work I do I am constantly reading various ingredients which makes me question these things.

I am looking at it like this...if a bag of kibble (or tinned wet) contains 4% meat and animal derivatives, of which that 4% is likely to be anything (beaks, tails, feet...whatever), what the hell is the other 96% made up of then....cheap cereals to bulk it up, a few dehydrated vegetables and god knows what else.

Well, as I say...I'm no nutritional expert and if I certainly could be wrong but I don't feel that is what is needed to maintain the optimum health of a dog.


----------



## hobbs2004

Goblin said:


> Cereals, meat and animal derivatives (min 4% beef), oils and fats, vegetable protein extracts, derivatives of vegetable origin, vegetables (min 4% carrots, min 4% green beans), minerals.
> 
> cereals (rice 14%, corn 14%), meat and animal derivatives (chicken 20%), oils and fats (of which fish oils 0.5%), derivatives of vegetable origin (dehydated beetroot pulp 5%), vegetable protein extracts, minerals, antioxidants.
> 
> Derivatives is a method used by the manufacturers to source whatever is cheapest at the current time without having the need to change the label. I am not sure but I view it as 4% of the total meat derivatives is beef for one and 20% of the total meat derivatives is chicken for the other with nothing to do with actual protein level.


It isn't so much the mention of derivatives that make it easier for manufacturers to subtly change their recipe depending on availability without having to change declarations at each time (and face it, if they were to do that the consumers would have to bear the cost) but it is more the general labelling regulations, which only requires manufacturers to state the FLAVOUR meat, which needs to be a minimum of 4%. Any further declaration is up to the manufacturers and to me, whether they do or not, is one big step to delineating what is "better" food and what isn't.

And no, the minimum 4% of the flavour meat doesn't need to be meat (unless it states so) but can be made up of just derivatives.

So, going by the examples above. Example 1, if presume is a beef food, hence the minimum requirement to list 4% beef. They will use other meats and derivatives from other animals but aren't required to list these. The second is a chicken based on and they exceed statutory requirements by actually stating what probably is the overall proportion of chicken in that food. Again, they don't list the other meats that will have gone in to this (if any).

What is save to say though is that these two foods are packed full of cereals, which in both cases are the first ingredient. These are weighed and listed before processing and grains have a nasty habit of expanding during the cooking process (in wet food where the moisture isn't subsequently extruded), meaning that however much was in there to start off with will have extended further.

And Goblin, AAFCO nutrient profiles are for the US though in all fairness, the European equivalent - the FEDIAF - has largely adopted these but without the same punch or powers. And just because a food says that it is complete doesn't mean that it is. There have been plenty of instances where food has been redeclared as complementary after a while (oops, that's bad) or where analyses just don't add up! (and I don't mean that they don't add up to 100 but where the ca/p is too skewed, certain minerals and trace elements are missing etc)



LisaZonda said:


> I'm sure the word "derivatives" actually means, in layman's terms, all the old bits of crap left over.


What is and isn't a suitable "derivative" in Europe is quite tightly regulated. Firstly, most of them (but not all, such as one day chicks) come from stuff intended for humans. And let's not forget that is what the pet food industry is; a mop-up industry to the human one. At least nothing gets wasted.

There are 3 categories of by-products but only products from the 3 category can make it into pet food



> parts of slaughtered animals which are fit for human consumption but are not intended for human consumption for commercial reasons;
> parts of slaughtered animals which are rejected as unfit for human consumption but are not affected by any sign of a communicable disease;
> hides and skins, hooves and horns, pig bristles and feathers originating from animals that are slaughtered in a slaughterhouse and were declared fit for human consumption after undergoing an ante mortem inspection;
> blood obtained from animals declared fit for human consumption after undergoing an ante mortem inspection, other than ruminants slaughtered in a slaughterhouse;
> animal by-products derived from the production of products intended for human consumption, including degreased bones and greaves;
> former foodstuffs of animal origin, other than catering waste, which are no longer intended for human consumption for commercial reasons or due to problems of manufacturing or packaging defects;
> raw milk originating from animals that do not show any signs of a communicable disease;
> fish or other sea animals, except sea mammals, caught in the open sea for the purpose of fishmeal production, and fresh by-products from fish from plants manufacturing fish products for human consumption;
> shells of eggs originating from animals that do not show any signs of a communicable disease;
> blood, hides and skins, hooves, feathers, wool, horns, hair and fur originating from healthy animals;
> catering waste other than category 1.


So, yes, that can be your skins, feathers, fur, but that can also be chicken carcasses, lungs, udders, liver, kidney, eyes etc all of which are nutritious.

All of the manufacturer that to me produce decent food declare openly what by-products they use and also what ratio to "meat" they are. To me that is important. Since I also feed raw I know the importance of nutrients that come from by-products but to me there needs to be a certain ratio of meat/by-products.



LisaZonda said:


> I am looking at it like this...if a bag of kibble (or tinned wet) contains 4% meat and animal derivatives, of which that 4% is likely to be anything (beaks, tails, feet...whatever), what the hell is the other 96% made up of then....cheap cereals to bulk it up, a few dehydrated vegetables and god knows what else.


Not necessarily. As I said above, the 4% meat doesn't mean that there is only 4% meat in there but that only refers to the flavour meat. The food can and will contain more meat and by-products but from other animals that are not part of the animal that is giving the food its name. Whether they use other fillers , such as grains or vegetables, to fill up the space, well that depends on whether they declare them (in blanket terms) or not. Remember though, that the ingredient list is in terms of weight - so even if they don't give true percentages you at least get a relative idea.

But at the end of the day you need to ask yourself this. How is is possible for someone to produce a 400g tin of food for say 50p and for it to contain good quality ingredients (i.e. more meat than animal derivatives)? Well, it isn't considering that the cost will also need to take into account the manufacturing process, the materials (tins, labels), the company PR etc as well as the ingredients.

If you want to know what you feed, then choose those brands that openly declare what is in them; and there are quite a few. But still remain PR savvy 

Hope that helps


----------



## Goblin

Hopefully you don't mind the fact we are going off a bit SixStar but I think labelling is an important part of choosing food.

The actual definition of derivatives is defined by the The Feeding Stuffs (England) Regulations 2005 (according to the Pet Food Manufacturer's Association Website although their own links to it do not work at present).

Of particular interest is UK Statutory Instrument 2005 No. 3281
Meat Derivatives are


> All the fleshy parts of slaughtered warm-blooded land animals fresh or preserved by appropriate treatment, and all products and derivatives of the processing of the carcase or parts of the carcase of such animals.


My take on that is: at it's best fleshy parts + guts (useful, full of good nutrients). At it's worst anything but "meat".

The actual idea of picking up what's cheapest at the time without changing the label is sensible for the manufacturer and reduces costs. It does however mean it's impossible to do an elimination diet to determine what an animal is allergic to as each "batch" could be totally different. It also means the quality of ingredients can vary from batch to batch.

The final thing I would like to point out is carbohydrates are necessary, not for nutrient purposes according to the AAFCO nutrient profiles, but for the formation of the dry food into the shapes the come in. Although it could be disputed my take is also that most of the contents is simply bulk which is why good species appropriate food = smaller poop quantities.


----------



## LisaZonda

hobbs2004 said:


> But at the end of the day you need to ask yourself this. How is is possible for someone to produce a 400g tin of food for say 50p and for it to contain good quality ingredients (i.e. more meat than animal derivatives)? Well, it isn't considering that the cost will also need to take into account the manufacturing process, the materials (tins, labels), the company PR etc as well as the ingredients.
> 
> If you want to know what you feed, then choose those brands that openly declare what is in them; and there are quite a few. But still remain PR savvy
> 
> Hope that helps


Thank you for your help.

Yes you're right, of course if you pay so little for a tin of dog food then you can't expect the contents to be of the best quality, especially as you say...when you also take into account the manufacturing process etc.

I do find it quite worrying that many people would naturally assume that the more you pay for a product, the better quality it will be and will never think to actually look into the ingredients...its the old "you get what you pay for" way of thinking, we both know that isn't always the case but it is very easy to fall into the trap with brands like Royal Canin, Eukanuba, Iams etc when you can only get them from pet food stores and not supermarket shelves as that somehow makes it appear more specialist, plus the prices are so ridiculously high (I'm not sure if these are available in some UK supermarkets, that is just my experience where I live) and when looking at SixStar's index there are quite a few cheaper brands which are better quality, it certainly suprised me (and many others) when I looked through it...Royal Canin and the like have certainly pulled off some fantastic marketing there.

None of this matters a jot to me personally as I am in the process of getting my puppy onto raw but she was on Royal Canin when I got her from the breeder, however it is quite interesting when you take the time to delve into the actual contents of these expensive and largely believed, better quality products. 

My apologies to SixStar if I've taken this thread off track slightly


----------



## cinnamontoast

caine said:


> as ive said i have used it for years and not one off my dogs have become ill or any problems from wagg as i have said everyone has diff opinions


Cor, certainly did not mean to put a smiley face on there.  It's not a matter of opinion that this particular food contains bad stuff-it's clear on the analysis I posted.  You can have whatever opinion you like, but it's a FACT that this food is cheap crap which contains stuff that may well cause harm to an animal.

I am of the mind that my dogs don't get to choose what they eat, therefore the least I can do it give them something decent that does not (as far as I can make out) contain cancer causing ingredients.


----------



## Goblin

hobbs2004 said:


> And Goblin, AAFCO nutrient profiles are for the US though in all fairness, the European equivalent - the FEDIAF - has largely adopted these but without the same punch or powers.


Thanks for that.. Found it as http://www.nutricao.vet.br/pdfs/FEDIAF_Nutritional_Guidelines_-_final_version_6-09-11.pdf but haven't gone through it yet. Will stick it in it's own thread as it should reach a wider audience.


----------



## hobbs2004

Goblin said:


> Thanks for that.. Found it as http://www.nutricao.vet.br/pdfs/FEDIAF_Nutritional_Guidelines_-_final_version_6-09-11.pdf but haven't gone through it yet. Will stick it in it's own thread as it should reach a wider audience.


Their nutritional guidelines can be found here: Nutrition | FEDIAF - it is a pdf that needs to be downloaded.

Oops, should have looked at your link - they are the same. I just prefer things from "source"... Sorry


----------



## caine

cinammontoast said:


> Cor, certainly did not mean to put a smiley face on there.  It's not a matter of opinion that this particular food contains bad stuff-it's clear on the analysis I posted.  You can have whatever opinion you like, but it's a FACT that this food is cheap crap which contains stuff that may well cause harm to an animal.
> 
> I am of the mind that my dogs don't get to choose what they eat, therefore the least I can do it give them something decent that does not (as far as I can make out) contain cancer causing ingredients.


hmmmm my dog choises to eat if a dog dosent like anything they wont eat it at all u my dogs dont likeanything they wont touch it at all same as ur dogs if they dont want to eat something they wont like my dog wont eat chicken n veg but will beef n veg he loves peppers but hates oniopns n tomatoes but loves cuccumber so yes to a degree ur dog can choice what he will or wont eat


----------



## cinnamontoast

caine said:


> but hates oniopns n tomatoes but loves cuccumber so yes to a degree ur dog can choice what he will or wont eat


Which part of cancer causing do you not get? Are you not seeing this about the food you give your dog? Read the review!

Never mind if the dog likes it, mine ate poo for onto as puppies. Yum. McDonalds is tasty but not good for you.

Hates onions? Mate, they're very dangerous for dogs, surely you know this. I think you should read up on foods that are dangerous for dogs and the analysis I posted for you. Facepalm.


----------



## caine

cinammontoast said:


> Which part of cancer causing do you not get? Are you not seeing this about the food you give your dog? Read the review!
> 
> Never mind if the dog likes it, mine ate poo for onto as puppies. Yum. McDonalds is tasty but not good for you.
> 
> Hates onions? Mate, they're very dangerous for dogs, surely you know this. I think you should read up on foods that are dangerous for dogs and the analysis I posted for you. Facepalm.


is it scientifically proven that wagg food is cancer causing or just from another website u copyed n pasted and as for maccy `ds its facking discusting same as kfc n burger king only fast food ill eat is pizza from sansiburys xD that is yummy yes hates onions couse when i droped some on the floor by mistake he didnt touch it sniffed it then walked away der get a grip as if i would feed it to him deliberately as ive said i have had 8 racing greyhounds feed on it not one died of cancer or got 1 died off a broken and shatterd hock had to have put down another 3of old age 2 otheres off broken legs that was put to sleep then when ngrc changed BGRB they just made it harder for the independent trainer to train greyhounds it become more about how much money they could earn rather than the dogs welfare anyways dont no why im explaining what i feed my dog and dogs to u as i dont even no u or value ur opinion lol last post from me as im not getting ionto a stuppid slangging match with someone i dont no from adam


----------



## Goblin

I haven't gone into a lot of the scientific evidence for BHA and BHT however BUTYLATED HYDROXYANISOLE (BHA) shows how California counts BHA as a known carcinogen in humans. I'm sure other sources can be found. It should be noted that this is in humans, not dogs and do not know of any direct reports relating to dogs but then most reports will be relating to humans.

Butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT) is even more controversial with some reports saying it helps, others that it causes cancers.

However, given the potential, combined with the fact that there are other, safe alternatives, doesn't it make sense to use the alternatives if you wish to give the best possible chance for your dog?


----------



## hobbs2004

cinammontoast said:


> Review for dried red rated foods (all contain BHT or BHA or both, a known carcinogen. This is explicit, not implicit, in the reviews)
> 
> Review for Bakers:
> Dog Food Reviews - Bakers Complete Beef & Country Vegetables - Powered by ReviewPost
> 
> Review for Wagg dried food:
> Dog Food Reviews - Wagg Complete Worker - Powered by ReviewPost
> 
> Review for Pedigree:
> Dog Food Reviews - Pedigree with Chicken, Rice & Vegetables - Powered by ReviewPost


Ok, just playing devil's advocate for a second, has anyone double-checked whether Bakers, Wagg and Pedigree actually either still use those preservatives (e.g. the review for Wagg is from 2008) or whether if they still use them in the US, whether they do in the food that is on the UK/Europe?

As far as I am aware the DFA is an American site listing the ingredients/analysis of food as they are found in the US (hey, I could be wrong though). While that still gives UK/European consumers a good insight in the food and the US food choices, there are different regulations here which means that foods often contain different additives, even slightly different ingredient lists and analyses. Just worth keeping in mind.

Onwards and upwards.


----------



## lola belle

Very interesting thread here.....I'm new on here, so here goes. I feel a bit sorry for Caine, Wagg obviously suits her dogs and it's a shame people are made to feel bad about feeding it. I personally don't feed it, know plenty of people who do, one friend in particular, shows and breeds and judges her breed, and her dogs are in superb coat and condition. After trying umpteen food brands, found Wagg to suit her lot the best, as they all seem to live well into 'old age', she doesn't feel guilty one bit about feeding it. It's not fed due to price either, although that must be a bonus.!! I feed what I feel is a good quality food, at the end of the day, we must all do what we feel is best for our pets, should never be made to feel guilty.


----------



## caine

lola belle said:


> Very interesting thread here.....I'm new on here, so here goes. I feel a bit sorry for Caine, Wagg obviously suits her dogs and it's a shame people are made to feel bad about feeding it. I personally don't feed it, know plenty of people who do, one friend in particular, shows and breeds and judges her breed, and her dogs are in superb coat and condition. After trying umpteen food brands, found Wagg to suit her lot the best, as they all seem to live well into 'old age', she doesn't feel guilty one bit about feeding it. It's not fed due to price either, although that must be a bonus.!! I feed what I feel is a good quality food, at the end of the day, we must all do what we feel is best for our pets, should never be made to feel guilty.


thank you hobbs lola bella and goblin my dogs coat does shine now and he has a lot more energy we walk over 4 miles a day now and he loves it now so happy days i want to get a Rhodesian Ridgeback does anyone now much about them my friend has one and he is a lovely boy anyone no off any bad points


----------



## LisaZonda

I tried a few times but I can't even read the reply from Caine 

I'm not being funny but without any punctuation/paragraphing at all, I get about halfway through and my brain starts leaking out the edge of my eyeballs! :blush:


----------



## caine

LisaZonda said:


> I tried a few times but I can't even read the reply from Caine
> 
> I'm not being funny but without any punctuation/paragraphing at all, I get about halfway through and my brain starts leaking out the edge of my eyeballs! :blush:


the ppl who answerd my reply never moaned about how i done it only u so im not to botherd i know this is of topic but im thinking off getting a Rhodesian Ridgeback does anyone no any bad points about them my friend has one and he is a lovely dog


----------



## Dogless

caine said:


> the ppl who answerd my reply never moaned about how i done it only u so im not to botherd i know this is of topic but im thinking off getting a Rhodesian Ridgeback does anyone no any bad points about them my friend has one and he is a lovely dog


I have a Rhodesian Ridgeback - hard to say what are 'bad points' as it depends what it is that you want in a dog; what may be good or bad to one person may be opposite to the other. Send me some visitor messages if you have any questions if you like to not take this thread way off topic.


----------



## cookiemonster11

Am in need of some serious help and advice. I am struggling on what to feed my young shepherd, as she is allergic to:

Rice
Potato
Corn\maize
Oats
Beef
Pork
Chicken
Lamb
Duck
Turkey

So basically all she can eat is:

Egg
White fish
Wheat
Soy
Barley

Can anyone recommend a food that I would be able to feed her on, as I am really struggling to find something to suit her. Thank you x


----------



## SixStar

cookiemonster11 said:


> Am in need of some serious help and advice. I am struggling on what to feed my young shepherd, as she is allergic to:
> 
> Rice
> Potato
> Corn\maize
> Oats
> Beef
> Pork
> Chicken
> Lamb
> Duck
> Turkey
> 
> So basically all she can eat is:
> 
> Egg
> White fish
> Wheat
> Soy
> Barley
> 
> Can anyone recommend a food that I would be able to feed her on, as I am really struggling to find something to suit her. Thank you x


Good grief, poor girlie and poor you!

I highly doubt there will be any premade commercial food that you can feed her, so I presume you'd have to make your own. At least she can eat eggs and whitefish for protein (are other types of fish ok?, also what about venison and rabbit?) then you could use ground eggshells for calcium, and then also fruits and vegetables if she can eat them - that'll give you a basic diet for her, but I shouldn't think it'd be complete so you'd need to look into a vitamin supplement for her - unless she can tolerate offal from any animal?

Just out of interest, when you say she is allergic to the meats you listed, have you tried her with them raw? Many dogs can't tolerate cooked versions of meat, but are fine with them raw - cooked pork for example will shoot out of one of my dogs, but he's fine eating raw pork.


----------



## dee41

thankyou will be looking for something better now


----------



## Camren

Very interesting thread.
That's very helpful and interesting to see the feeding costs.
Thanks for doing that, sure it'll help a lot of people.


----------



## Horse and Hound

Looking at this, and the wet food thread, both my dogs are on "orange" foods- Skinners and a topper of Butchers tins or [email protected] advanced nutrition tins, depends.

Mix in the odd bit of raw and a chicken wing/thigh every now and then.

Must be working for them though! They are happy and Roo doesn't itch, which is a big thing for me.


----------



## SixStar

Horse and Hound said:


> Looking at this, and the wet food thread, both my dogs are on "orange" foods- Skinners and a topper of Butchers tins or [email protected] advanced nutrition tins, depends.
> 
> Mix in the odd bit of raw and a chicken wing/thigh every now and then.
> 
> Must be working for them though! They are happy and Roo doesn't itch, which is a big thing for me.


The Skinners listed is the hypoallergenic field and trial one - the duck, salmon & turkey with rice ones, or the sensitive lamb & rice ones are the only I'd consider "orange".

The others - crunchy, muesli, maintenance, ruff & ready etc - I'd all rate "red".

But yes, this is only a guide, whatever dogs do well on, providing it isn't harmful, then all is good!


----------



## Butchcass

Hi, great thread that is getting loads of use. I'll be honest I've got to page 7 and my eyes are starting to glare on me so I apologise if my question has been answered in later pages :/
My 15 week old pup Dex is on Eukunuba, which, I thought was a good food but you have it in the red section, can I ask why??
It has meat as the first ingredient and a good protein content. He is doing OK on it, although his farts STINK!! I have put that down to the protein content??
I want to feed him a raw diet, but my wife is having none of it and seen as it is her who is at home with the family it seems I am over ruled!
I was also thinking of going onto Arden Grange to see if it helped his wind.

Cheers 
Adam


----------



## SixStar

Butchcass said:


> Hi, great thread that is getting loads of use. I'll be honest I've got to page 7 and my eyes are starting to glare on me so I apologise if my question has been answered in later pages :/
> My 15 month old pup Dex is on Eukunuba, which, I thought was a good food but you have it in the red section, can I ask why??
> It has meat as the first ingredient and a good protein content. He is doing OK on it, although his farts STINK!! I have put that down to the protein content??
> I want to feed him a raw diet, but my wife is having none of it and seen as it is her who is at home with the family it seems I am over ruled!
> I was also thinking of going onto Arden Grange to see if it helped his wind.
> 
> Cheers
> Adam


Hi Adam, welcome to the forum. Yes, this thread is a bit of a mammoth read, so well done for getting to page 7!

Although Eukanuba has meat as the first ingredient, the second and third ingredients are wheat and maize. These are both very low quality fillers and completely indigestible for dogs - they have no use for them at all, so they just simply come out the other end! They are also well known for causing skin allergies and digestive sensitivities. Eukanuba also contains 'EC permitted antioxidants' which may include BHA and BHT - known carcinogenic (cancer causing) additives. The company who make Eukanuba also tests on animals.

What a shame your wife is against a raw diet  It really is the best way to feed a dog IMO - but! I do understand it's not for everyone.

Arden Grange is a MUCH better food than Eukanuba. However, if you could stretch to one of the 'green' listed foods, that'd be a brilliant move. You may find your pups wind is caused my cereals in the food, in which case, a grain free food (one that doesn't contain any rice, wheat, maize/corn, oats, barley etc) might help - Arden Grange Sensitive ocean white fish & potato is a grain free food since you're interested in AG


----------



## magpie

Just wanted to say a big thanks to SixStar for this thread, it has been so helpful for me in choosing what to feed my new puppy! He was being fed Eukanuba by his breeder, but we are now slowly moving him over to Fish 4 Dogs 

Also, I work in a vets and I've found that this forum in general has really helped me to recommend decent foods to our clients. We get so many people asking about food, and it's great to feel confident that I'm pointing them in the right direction 

So yeah, big thumbs up


----------



## bellab

Hi Sixstar,

Great index, very useful well done. Just wanted your thoughts on Barking Heads Fusspot v JWB Ocean White Fish and Brown rice. We have been feeding our nine month old springer bitch Fusspot for past 3 months as our vet recommended a food with no more than 22% protein as he said that anymore protein could lead to her skin breaking out which can be very common in her breed. She seems to be fine on fusspot and her stools are generally good and firm. However she is fairly hyper and energetic but Im fairly sure that is breed related and not food related

Anyway our local stockist was out of Fusspot recently so we opted to feed her the JWB White fish and rice as the nutritional info was quite similar to the fusspot. She seemed fine on the JWB for the first 8-9 days on it but yesterday she had bad dose of diahorrea and bit of vomitting. I have decided to fast her for 24 hrs and continue to feed her the JWB to see if the diahorrea continues but I am concerned that it is the JWB that is not agreeing with her.

Do you think I should return to the fusspot or is there any great benefit of changing her to something like Orijen or fish4dogs which are green in your index? Or is there any particular brand and variety that you would recommend for a lively springer? 

Your help would be greatly appreciated.


Ps. She is not a working springer, just simply a family pet.


----------



## SixStar

bellab said:


> Hi Sixstar,
> 
> Great index, very useful well done. Just wanted your thoughts on Barking Heads Fusspot v JWB Ocean White Fish and Brown rice. We have been feeding our nine month old springer bitch Fusspot for past 3 months as our vet recommended a food with no more than 22% protein as he said that anymore protein could lead to her skin breaking out which can be very common in her breed. She seems to be fine on fusspot and her stools are generally good and firm. However she is fairly hyper and energetic but Im fairly sure that is breed related and not food related
> 
> Anyway our local stockist was out of Fusspot recently so we opted to feed her the JWB White fish and rice as the nutritional info was quite similar to the fusspot. She seemed fine on the JWB for the first 8-9 days on it but yesterday she had bad dose of diahorrea and bit of vomitting. I have decided to fast her for 24 hrs and continue to feed her the JWB to see if the diahorrea continues but I am concerned that it is the JWB that is not agreeing with her.
> 
> Do you think I should return to the fusspot or is there any great benefit of changing her to something like Orijen or fish4dogs which are green in your index? Or is there any particular brand and variety that you would recommend for a lively springer?
> 
> Your help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Ps. She is not a working springer, just simply a family pet.


Hi Bellab,

Out of JWB fish & rice and Barking Heads fusspot, the BH is certainly the better food - so if you could purchase that online and are happy to continue with that, then I think it would be best to change back to (if it's not broken and all that... ) It's possible she is reacting to the rice in JWB, which the BH fusspot doesn't have.

However! If you are willing to take a step up and feed a high quality grain free kibble such as F4D or Orijen, that'd be fab! It's not so much as the amount of protein, it's the quality - and meat protein is fine.


----------



## Goblin

bellab said:


> ... our vet recommended a food with no more than 22% protein as he said that anymore protein could lead to her skin breaking out which can be very common in her breed...


If this is raised again at some point can you ask the question why the % of protein matters as I could easily add sawdust to reduce the percentage. Wouldn't make it a better food. I have never come across anyone you can explain why the % really matters.


----------



## vickieb

Went into [email protected] last night armed with iPhone to double check the orange listings. Went for Wainrights in the end. Had to buy a half RC tho for the transition. Thanks again for the info


----------



## applemind

Is dog food healthy? I have looked through many reviews (Animal Feed) about pet food, and not all of them are positive. Isn't pet food dangerous?


----------



## Mum2Heidi

Hi Sixstar, 
Just came across this Lathams product range | Lathams and thought it may be worth listing. Available at Tesco - what do you reckon?


----------



## Butchcass

I have just received a tester pack from fish4dogs and gave it to Dex.

My god I have never seen food disappear so quickly and him to be so happy after it! 

I thought he was happy on Euk but seeing his reaction on f4d I'm soooo wrong! F4d seems to be the way forward for my Dex.

Bloody stinks mind!


----------



## SixStar

Listing of Breederpack kibble, as requested via PM by Martmart -

*BREEDERPACK (working dog)*

*Price (15kg):* £10.50
*Suggested daily amount:* 300g
*Daily feeding cost:* 11p

*Ingredients:* Cereals, meat and animal derivatives, derivatives of vegetable origin, vegetable protein extracts, oils and fats, various sugars, minerals, yeasts, EEC permitted antioxidants, preservatives and colourants

Really, really awful stuff I'm afraid. Un-named cereals and meat & animal derivatives as the main ingredients, and has EEC additives, which may included BHA and BHT, which are known to cause cancer. Dirt cheap for a reason - it's muck!



Mum2Heidi said:


> Hi Sixstar,
> Just came across this Lathams product range | Lathams and thought it may be worth listing. Available at Tesco - what do you reckon?


*LATHAMS (lamb & rice)*

*Price (10kg):* £24.99
*Suggested daily amount:* 250g
*Daily feeding cost:* 62p

*Ingredients:* Lamb meat meal (26%), rice (26%), peas, potato, chicken fat, sugar beet pulp (5%), linseed (2.5%), digest, seaweed (1.25%), tomato, carrot, alfalfa, chicory, yucca schidigera extract, calcium carbonate, glucosamine, chondroitin.

Not at all bad for a supermarket food - it seems Tesco is the only stockist. Pretty much on par with the likes of James Wellbeloved etc, probably the best you'd find in a supermarket 



Butchcass said:


> I have just received a tester pack from fish4dogs and gave it to Dex.
> 
> My god I have never seen food disappear so quickly and him to be so happy after it!
> 
> I thought he was happy on Euk but seeing his reaction on f4d I'm soooo wrong! F4d seems to be the way forward for my Dex.
> 
> Bloody stinks mind!


That's great news!


----------



## [email protected]

Butchcass - Now you know why I've been feeding Fish4dogs food, treats etc for so long. First of all they wolf it down, never had a problem with finicky eating on it and secondly they look great! Try the salmon mousse as a topper and treat sometimes, they love that oh and it helps that they've got an offer on it at the moment from their website........and yep, it does stink!


----------



## Bedslug

I've found this thread extremely useful - thank you SixStar!

I was always under the impression that 'fresh meat' was better than 'meat meal' but having read the clarification, I now know to look for a higher 'meat meal' content. 

Also, the importance of what is listed first in the ingredients is very useful. :thumbup:


----------



## Bedslug

Could someone kindly remind me how to work out the daily costs?


----------



## SixStar

Bedslug said:


> Could someone kindly remind me how to work out the daily costs?


Divide the bag size by daily feeding recommendation. Then divide number of days feed in bag by the price.

So 15000g (15kg bag) / 300g (for example) = 50
50 / (£)25 = 50(p)


----------



## Bedslug

SixStar said:


> Divide the bag size by daily feeding recommendation. Then divide number of days feed in bag by the price.
> 
> So 15000g (15kg bag) / 300g (for example) = 50
> 50 / (£)25 = 50(p)


Thank you Sixstar!

I was doing, for example:

15000 / 300 = 50

Then £57 / 50 = £1.14

Your method works out at 87p, much cheaper!


----------



## Redice

Brilliant Thread!

What do you think of this food?

Adult Sensitive Salmon & Potato

It doesn't appear to have any cereal or grain in it and seems reasonably priced. Is it as good as Fish4dogs. Would it receive a Green?
Is there any problem associated with Potato?
Thanks


----------



## SixStar

Redice said:


> Brilliant Thread!
> 
> What do you think of this food?
> 
> Adult Sensitive Salmon & Potato
> 
> It doesn't appear to have any cereal or grain in it and seems reasonably priced. Is it as good as Fish4dogs. Would it receive a Green?
> Is there any problem associated with Potato?
> Thanks


Hi - I'd rate it an orange personally - it's a decent grain free food, but doesn't have such a high meat content as the other green foods - also the majority of the salmon in that food is fresh rather than meal - which makes the overall salmon content much less that it appears.


----------



## Redice

Thanks alot. That is very interesting and helpful. Sounds like Fish4dogs would be better then.


----------



## kelliem35

Great helpfull post thankyou:smile5:


----------



## totallypets

Hi Sixstar, could you give me your opinion on CSJ Natural Hike On. I am struggling to get and keep weight on my dog. Thanks

Natural Hike On! - CSJ Original Dog Food - CSJK9 Ltd.


----------



## SixStar

totallypets said:


> Hi Sixstar, could you give me your opinion on CSJ Natural Hike On. I am struggling to get and keep weight on my dog. Thanks
> 
> Natural Hike On! - CSJ Original Dog Food - CSJK9 Ltd.


Hi - just had a look - it doesn't state the amount of salmon in the food, or whether it is fresh or meal, but prairie meal (maize) is the second ingredient - so not good in my book I'm afraid. It'd have to be a red on my list.

Grain free kibble is best for getting weights on dogs I feel - there is no grain/cereal which dogs don't need anyway, so they use much more of the food. You could always then add a little wet food as extra, and a couple meals of raw tripe a week too. Depending on how much weight your dog needs to gain, you could also add some puppy milk (lactol) too


----------



## totallypets

SixStar said:


> Hi - just had a look - it doesn't state the amount of salmon in the food, or whether it is fresh or meal, but prairie meal (maize) is the second ingredient - so not good in my book I'm afraid. It'd have to be a red on my list.
> 
> Grain free kibble is best for getting weights on dogs I feel - there is no grain/cereal which dogs don't need anyway, so they use much more of the food. You could always then add a little wet food as extra, and a couple meals of raw tripe a week too. Depending on how much weight your dog needs to gain, you could also add some puppy milk (lactol) too


I didn't realise Prairie meal was maize. I have read this thread all the way through, it is very informative - thank you so much for taking the time to do this and answer all the follow up questions.

I am determined to try and find the right good quality food for Poppy. I have been feeding her Fishmongers which despite what has been said is still being sold by Pets at Home. Even though I am feeding her enough for a dog more than 4kg heavier than she is she is still losing weight unless I add in extras.

I am currently adding 3-4 tins of fish a week to her food as well as both raw and cooked fruits and vegetables. I did stop for a while as she poos for England, I wondered if the extra was causing it but she still goes a minimum of 7 times a day! Without the extra she started losing weight again.

I'd love to feed her raw but my freezer is microscopic so am just feeding the odd raw meal, or adding the occasional small raw trimmings to her dinner.


----------



## Elle Jean

I have been interested in pet nutrition ever since my first Shorthaired German Pointer had a problem with his anal glands at the age of 2 and the vet suggested I change his diet! I hasten to add that he died last year at the grand old age of 16 1/2 years. 97 in human years apparently.
I often search the web reading about different dog foods to find out what is out there. One of the things I have read recently is that a high protein diet for puppies and I'm only referring to dry dog food or kibble that can affect the way a puppy grows. Bone growth maybe too quick. It also stated that not a lot is known about high protein dry diets for puppies and more research is needed.
Any thoughts?


----------



## HeartofClass

So yesterday as I went food shopping I decided I would try to find what the price difference is between the cheapest dry dog food I could find and the most expensive one (note where I live there aren't as many different brands available as in the UK). The cheapest was some dog food from Hofer that cost 5.99&#8364; for 10kg, the most expesinve one was Orijen that costs 69.99&#8364; for 10kg. Quite an astonishing difference - I wonder that they could possibly make the cheap one from to achieve such a low price!


----------



## AskieAmerEskimo

The quality of the food depends on how your dog reacts on it. Some dogs may be allergic to other foods or have other reactions that make the food less in quality.


----------



## Redice

Sixstar

What do you think of this variety of Arden Grange? The only cereal is rice, there is no maize.


Arden Grange Premium Chicken and Rice
Ingredients

Fresh Chicken (min 19%), Chicken Meal* (min 19%), Whole Grain Rice, Potato, Chicken Fat*, Beet Pulp, Egg Powder, Fish Meal*, Dried Brewers Yeast, Linseed, Fish Oil*, Minerals, Vitamins, Nucleotides, Prebiotic FOS, Prebiotic MOS, Cranberry Extract, Chondroitin Sulphate, Glucosamine Sulphate, MSM, Yucca Extract. * Preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract.



Typical Analysis

Protein 26%, Oil 17%, Fibre 3%, Ash 7%, Moisture 8%, Omega6 3.76%, Omega3 0.6%, Vitamin A 18000 IU/kg, Vitamin D3 1250 IU/kg, Vitamin E 130 IU/kg, Calcium 1.12%, Phosphorous P 0.8%, Copper 20 mg/kg (as Cupric Sulphate).


----------



## SixStar

Redice said:


> Sixstar
> 
> What do you think of this variety of Arden Grange? The only cereal is rice, there is no maize.
> 
> Arden Grange Premium Chicken and Rice
> Ingredients
> 
> Fresh Chicken (min 19%), Chicken Meal* (min 19%), Whole Grain Rice, Potato, Chicken Fat*, Beet Pulp, Egg Powder, Fish Meal*, Dried Brewers Yeast, Linseed, Fish Oil*, Minerals, Vitamins, Nucleotides, Prebiotic FOS, Prebiotic MOS, Cranberry Extract, Chondroitin Sulphate, Glucosamine Sulphate, MSM, Yucca Extract. * Preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract.
> 
> Typical Analysis
> 
> Protein 26%, Oil 17%, Fibre 3%, Ash 7%, Moisture 8%, Omega6 3.76%, Omega3 0.6%, Vitamin A 18000 IU/kg, Vitamin D3 1250 IU/kg, Vitamin E 130 IU/kg, Calcium 1.12%, Phosphorous P 0.8%, Copper 20 mg/kg (as Cupric Sulphate).


Looks reasonable enough - would still be an orange like the regular Arden Grange though.

19% fresh chicken and 19% chicken meal, so 38% total, sounds great doesn't it? But with the fresh chicken, once the moisture content has been removed (which obviously has to be done for a dry food) you are left with must less actual chicken in the food - I'm not sure of the working outs required to figure it out exactly (oh Lyceum, where are youuuu?!) - but 19% fresh chicken will reduced down to about 5%ish I think  so when combined with the 19% chicken meals, theres really only about 24% actual chicken in the food - confused yet?!  Reasonable enough, but still not quite the 38% it first seems.

Being maize free is good, but I don't think it's a whole heap better than the regular Arden Grange. IMO, the best of the AG range is their sensitive fish & potato, which is completely grain free


----------



## Redice

Arrrggghhh Thanks Sixstar. You are right it is all very confusing indeed. That makes it less Chicken than their ordinary Chicken and Rice which is cheaper but has maize in it.
Orjen and Acana are just too expensive and Fish4dogs my dogs don't like. Would Applaws be a good alternative to the above. I can see that I can get it cheaper online. This has to be a Green doesn't it. Thanks for all you help.

APPLAWS
ADULT LARGE BREED - 
CHICKEN

Composition:

Chicken 66% (from Dried Chicken), Chicken Mince 8%, Peas 8% (from Dried Peas), Potato Starch 6%, Poultry Oil 2.5% (Source of Omega 6), Beet Pulp, Poultry Gravy, Whole Egg (from Dried Egg), Cellulose Plant Fibre, Minerals, Vitamins, Salmon Oil (source of omega 3), Tomato (from Dried Tomato), Carrot (from Dried Carrot) Chicory Extract (F.O.S), Alfalfa Meal, Seaweed/Kelp, Yeast Extract (Purified Beta Glucan 0.1%), Glucosamine, Methylsulfonylmethane, Chondroitin, Carrot, Peppermint, Paprika Meal, Turmeric, Thyme Extract, Citrus Extract, Taurine 1000 mg/kg, Yucca Extract, Cranberry, Fennel Extract, Carob Extract, Ginger, Rosehip Extract, Dandelion Extract, Rosemary Oil Extract, Oregano, Probiotic: Contains E1705 Enterococcus faecium cernelle 68 (SF68: NCIMB 10415) 1,000,000 cfu/kg as an aid in the establishment,


----------



## SixStar

Yes, Applaws dry is an excellent food - it's a green on my list


----------



## Ponge69

Hello Sixstar and forum members,

I have just found this forum after spending 2 days looking into what food to move my 10month old Cock-a-chon puppies onto.

Firstly, THANK you so much Sixstar for all the work and for being so helpful. Ihave read all 30 pages, and appreciate the debates and varied opions greatly.

I have been feeding my beloved pups, Pedigree puppy kibble in the belief that it was a good fooed. I now know the truth and feel heart broken that I may have inadvertently been doing the wrong thing. They are both growing and developing really well and are the most wonderful addition to our family.

I find your guide really helpful, thanks again, as the other guide that I found was the American Dog food review site which as the forum has said is out of date and not necessarily correct for the UK. It was also frightening as it mentioned using euthenaised pets as bone meal. Awful.

I will look at the suggested green foods and decide what to feed now.

I only looked into this as Tilly has just had her first season, followed by a phantom pregnancy, and she has stopped eating her breakfast, and takes a while to eat her tea. 

Reading that she may be needing less as her growth slows has helped but I really want to change her food now.

Thank you all again, I'm off to read the rest of the site!

Ponge69


----------



## Bellaboo1

Hi Sixstar would you mind giving me your opinion on Vitalin Sensitive please ? I have looked at the ingredients and i didn't think they were too bad (sorry i don't know how to get the details on here apart from typing it all out manually lol, i'm a bit thick when it comes to computers  ta very much


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## Goblin

Elle Jean said:


> I often search the web reading about different dog foods to find out what is out there. One of the things I have read recently is that a high protein diet for puppies and I'm only referring to dry dog food or kibble that can affect the way a puppy grows. Bone growth maybe too quick. It also stated that not a lot is known about high protein dry diets for puppies and more research is needed.
> Any thoughts?


Lots  What does a protein % actually mean when it's mixed with fillers? All somebody needs to do is modify the amount of filler to adjust protein %. For all the good it will do it may as well be sawdust. I would love to know the reasoning for protein % and nobody has actually been able to give a reason other than generic "it helps steady bone growth".

Take raw meat as the "golden food" being as dogs are carnivores. Raw meat has approx 22-28% protein depending on the type. This is species appropriate. What's the rest? Mostly water at around 70%. This is protein a dog is designed for, not plant material which is not and certainly not carbohydrates which a dog has no use for as shown in pet food's own nutritional profiles. I would put forward it's not the protein % that matters but what the protein actually is and what "junk" is also added.

What is very important for growth however is the Calcium/Phosphorous ratio.


----------



## SixStar

Bellaboo1 said:


> Hi Sixstar would you mind giving me your opinion on Vitalin Sensitive please ? I have looked at the ingredients and i didn't think they were too bad (sorry i don't know how to get the details on here apart from typing it all out manually lol, i'm a bit thick when it comes to computers  ta very much


Happy to 

*VITALIN (sensitive, lamb & rice)*

*Price (15kg): *£28.99
*Suggested daily amount: *150g
*Daily feeding cost:* 28p

*Ingredients: *Lamb meat meal (33%), rice (26%), maize germ, sugar beet pulp, chicken fat, brewers yeast, vitamins, minerals.


A nice, decent budget kibble! It has more meat than other budgets like Skinners, although it does have some maize which is a shame, but it's to be expected for the price. Good, well-priced middle of the road food.


----------



## Mum2Heidi

SixStar said:


> Happy to
> 
> *VITALIN (sensitive, lamb & rice)*
> 
> *Price (15kg): *£28.99
> *Suggested daily amount: *150g
> *Daily feeding cost:* 28p
> 
> *Ingredients: *Lamb meat meal (33%), rice (26%), maize germ, sugar beet pulp, chicken fat, brewers yeast, vitamins, minerals.
> 
> 
> A nice, decent budget kibble! It has more meat than other budgets like Skinners, although it does have some maize which is a shame, but it's to be expected for the price. Good, well-priced middle of the road food.


When James1 was here, he looked into Vitalin and was a great fan of their Adult Maintenance which is cereal free (and on paper a better sensitive food). He took up the point with Vitalin re their "Sensitive" containing maize and found out that they only use the germ which is the good part of maize. Cant find the thread now, it was ages ago

(I see they now list "maize germ", used to state "maize")

May be worth anyone thinking of using it taking up that point with Vitalin for peace of mind.


----------



## SixStar

Mum2Heidi said:


> When James1 was here, he looked into Vitalin and was a great fan of their Adult Maintenance which is cereal free (and on paper a better sensitive food). He took up the point with Vitalin re their "Sensitive" containing maize and found out that they only use the germ which is the good part of maize. Cant find the thread now, it was ages ago
> 
> (I see they now list "maize germ", used to state "maize")
> 
> May be worth anyone thinking of using it taking up that point with Vitalin for peace of mind.


Oh ok thanks for that! I think I'll drop them an e-mail myself just to see what they say


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## GayleC

Would it be possible to add a marker for grain-free foods?

I *think* Wainwrights Turkey and Veg dry is grain free when i checked the packaging - but i would like it confirmed. Does anyone know?

Apart from Salmon/potato varieties - which other dry foods are grain free?

Props to Sixstar for creating this - so helpful - we have a itchy dog and we're now attempting to feed grain free. These lists have been an excellent starting point. Thanks!


----------



## GayleC

Thanks Sixstar - really helpful 

Edited - there was a post from Sixstar there a moment ago....:lol:


----------



## SixStar

GayleC said:


> Would it be possible to add a marker for grain-free foods?
> 
> I *think* Wainwrights Turkey and Veg dry is grain free when i checked the packaging - but i would like it confirmed. Does anyone know?
> 
> Apart from Salmon/potato varieties - which other dry foods are grain free?
> 
> Props to Sixstar for creating this - so helpful - we have a itchy dog and we're now attempting to feed grain free. These lists have been an excellent starting point. Thanks!


Most, if not all (I think, can't be 100% sure without checking back) of the green foods are grain free - unfortunately I've used all the text available in the opening post, so I can't actually add anything to the actual main Index.

Wainwrights turkey & veg is grain free BUT - Wainwrights salmon & potato is NOT! It contains barley.

Some other grain free foods, in addition to those listed in the Index, are;

James Wellbeloved turkey, lamb or fish and vegetable Turkey & Vegetable Cereal Free Kibble
Simpsons grain free sensitive range Sensitive - Grain Free
Bob & Lush duck, potato & peas Premium Duck Kibble with Potatoes & Peas - Adult - Store :: Bob & Lush - High quality dog food
Arden Grange sensitive Arden Grange Dog Sensitive Ocean White Fish & Potato 15Kg (Breeder bag) - Berriewood Pet Supplies

It's easy to presume that if a food isn't labelled 'lamb & rice' or what have you, that it is grain free, but do check ingredients lists - rice, maize, corn, prairie meat, wheat, oats and barley are all grains - and lots of salmon & potato based foods in particular contain oats.


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## SixStar

GayleC said:


> Thanks Sixstar - really helpful
> 
> Edited - there was a post from Sixstar there a moment ago....:lol:


:lol: Sorry! I deleted it and re-wrote, there was lots more info I wanted to add.


----------



## Mum2Heidi

SixStar said:


> Oh ok thanks for that! I think I'll drop them an e-mail myself just to see what they say


 I cant remember the exact reply, only that there was some good in the maize germ and that's why they use it. Didnt realise they'd changed the labelling tho
Pretty sure I'm not dreaming but with my attention span, anything's poss:biggrin::biggrin:

Be interesting to hear how they explain it :-0)


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## Bellaboo1

Thank you Sixstar and MumtoHeidi


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## Goblin

As far as grain goes it's probably something like the pedigree marketing:
[youtube_browser]VERwDt4He8Y[/youtube_browser]
On youtube with text underneath of


> Contrary to popular belief, corn is actually a good source of nutrition for dogs, like carbohydrates for energy. Corn also provides fiber, amino acids, linoleic acid, and antioxidants.


Yes.. I really believe it... not.


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## Super Squirrel

SixStar said:


> Divide the bag size by daily feeding recommendation. Then divide number of days feed in bag by the price.
> 
> So 15000g (15kg bag) / 300g (for example) = 50
> 50 / (£)25 = 50(p)





Bedslug said:


> Thank you Sixstar!
> 
> I was doing, for example:
> 
> 15000 / 300 = 50
> 
> Then £57 / 50 = £1.14
> 
> Your method works out at 87p, much cheaper!


Your method is actually correct, it wouldn't be 87p it would be £1.14.


----------



## Super Squirrel

Goblin said:


> As far as grain goes it's probably something like the pedigree marketing:
> [youtube_browser]VERwDt4He8Y[/youtube_browser]
> On youtube with text underneath of
> 
> Yes.. I really believe it... not.












Did the woman in the vid seem genuine to you? Here, read this script... it'll help your career.

I think that was the same grinder MacDonalds used in their '100% beef' advert with Gazza many years ago! I think they only use fillet steak.


----------



## HeartofClass

Would anyone be able to tell me something about this food? I'm not really knowledgeable enough to be able to judge by the ingredients.


ingredients: cereals, meat and meat by-products (20% poultry), oils and fats, vegetable by-products (0.4% inulin), fish and fish by-products, yeast, vegetable, mineral substances.

component analysis: Protein 25%, 16% crude fat, crude fiber 2.5%, ash 6.5%, 1.3% calcium, phosphorus 1%


----------



## SixStar

HeartofClass said:


> Would anyone be able to tell me something about this food? I'm not really knowledgeable enough to be able to judge by the ingredients.
> 
> ingredients: cereals, meat and meat by-products (20% poultry), oils and fats, vegetable by-products (0.4% inulin), fish and fish by-products, yeast, vegetable, mineral substances.
> 
> component analysis: Protein 25%, 16% crude fat, crude fiber 2.5%, ash 6.5%, 1.3% calcium, phosphorus 1%


A rather poor quality food to be honest - the first ingredients are cereals, which is vague, we don't know what cereals they are - whether it is rice, wheat, maize, oats etc, and any cereal really is, IMO, just a low quality filler. The second ingredient is meat and by-products - we know 20% is poultry, but which poultry? and what's the rest? The rest of the ingredients list is very, very vague too - I'd definately avoid this one.


----------



## HeartofClass

Thanks for the answer. It's no suprise this is a bad food as it's one of the dog foods with the lowest price I could find and I just wondered because it still had a surprisingly "high" meat content than other foods of similar price that mostly had 5% meat content


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## purrr

The results you have for ROYAL CANIN would you put the one for giant breed in red as well? 
im changing my GD puppy onto the wainwright's wet food as it seem really good and he enjoys it, and its been the only food iv been able to get him to eat, but on another forum there dead against it saying its all water and only 25%meat yet the box says 65% meat, well they are saying that royal canin is the BEST of the BEST food and that's what i should have him on but i feel this food is poor for what it cost's i have tried it before and it run though them at a very fast rate and made them both ill, does this food contain loads of fillers?


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## SixStar

purrr said:


> The results you have for ROYAL CANIN would you put the one for giant breed in red as well?
> im changing my GD puppy onto the wainwright's wet food as it seem really good and he enjoys it, and its been the only food iv been able to get him to eat, but on another forum there dead against it saying its all water and only 25%meat yet the box says 65% meat, well they are saying that royal canin is the BEST of the BEST food and that's what i should have him on but i feel this food is poor for what it cost's i have tried it before and it run though them at a very fast rate and made them both ill, does this food contain loads of fillers?


Yes I'd list the giant breed Royal Canin the same as the one I've got in the Index - which without checking back, is the mini breed one I think. I wouldn't feed any of the Royal Canin foods at all.

WW wet is a very good choice - it does have a high water content, but thats because it's high in fresh meat, which has is about 70% water itself.


----------



## purrr

SixStar said:


> Yes I'd list the giant breed Royal Canin the same as the one I've got in the Index - which without checking back, is the mini breed one I think. I wouldn't feed any of the Royal Canin foods at all.
> 
> WW wet is a very good choice - it does have a high water content, but thats because it's high in fresh meat, which has is about 70% water itself.


thank you so much, i knew my gut feeling about ww was right, the main thing they was on about as well is its only 11.7 % protein but would that be good protein for a growing puppy since its from meat and not fillers? he does get a little dry as well but atm he wont eat dry at all so finding it hard to slowly change him from the rubbish dry food to good dry food


----------



## SixStar

purrr said:


> thank you so much, i knew my gut feeling about ww was right, the main thing they was on about as well is its only 11.7 % protein but would that be good protein for a growing puppy since its from meat and not fillers? he does get a little dry as well but atm he wont eat dry at all so finding it hard to slowly change him from the rubbish dry food to good dry food


Yes it will be fine  you can always supplement with extra meat if you are worried about protein - a meal a day of raw perhaps? - but this isn't nessacary, the WW trays alone are fine. At least the protein in WW trays are from meat - not cereal and grain like in the Royal Canin, it's not quantity of protein thats important, it's the quality


----------



## purrr

SixStar said:


> Yes it will be fine  you can always supplement with extra meat if you are worried about protein - a meal a day of raw perhaps? - but this isn't nessacary, the WW trays alone are fine. At least the protein in WW trays are from meat - not cereal and grain like in the Royal Canin, it's not quantity of protein thats important, it's the quality


i would love to give him a raw feed a day but he don't like it :lol: might try him on some raw chicken as iv tried him with some raw mince and beef heart he gag's when it touch's his tongue,
i think this forum is a lot better and more helpful esp with this sticky you have been a huge help unlike the other forum so many thanks


----------



## hobbs2004

SixStar said:


> Yes it will be fine  you can always supplement with extra meat if you are worried about protein - a meal a day of raw perhaps? - but this isn't nessacary, the WW trays alone are fine. At least the protein in WW trays are from meat - not cereal and grain like in the Royal Canin, it's not quantity of protein thats important, it's the quality


Just to add to Sixstar's post. It is not only the quality of the protein that matters when you compare the RC Giant Adult dry food with the WW wet adult trays. But in order to be able to compare like for like (i.e. dry food with wet food) you need to take into account the different levels of moisture in the food.

Yes, on the face of it, the RC dry food seems to contain more protein than the WW wet trays (28% vs 11.2%) but one contains about 8% moisture, the other one 73.9% (or so). Once you take into account the moisture in both foods then you find that the RC actually contains 30.5% protein while the WW contains 42.9% protein.

So, to be quite frank, the people on the other forum don't really know what they are talking about when they gave you that advice. 

Edit and a by-the-by: Not sure whether the WW analysis actually is right. I find it hard to believe that there are apparently no or very few carbs in the trays, given the ingredient list as well as that rather high fibre content. Doesn't deflect from the figures above (as they show as general trend) but hmm....


----------



## purrr

hobbs2004 said:


> Just to add to Sixstar's post. It is not only the quality of the protein that matters when you compare the RC Giant Adult dry food with the WW wet adult trays. But in order to be able to compare like for like (i.e. dry food with wet food) you need to take into account the different levels of moisture in the food.
> 
> Yes, on the face of it, the RC dry food seems to contain more protein than the WW wet trays (28% vs 11.2%) but one contains about 8% moisture, the other one 73.9% (or so). Once you take into account the moisture in both foods then you find that the RC actually contains 30.5% protein while the WW contains 42.9% protein.
> 
> So, to be quite frank, the people on the other forum don't really know what they are talking about when they gave you that advice.
> 
> Edit and a by-the-by: Not sure whether the WW analysis actually is right. I find it hard to believe that there are apparently no or very few carbs in the trays, given the ingredient list as well as that rather high fibre content. Doesn't deflect from the figures above (as they show as general trend) but hmm....


thanks you both for the helpful advice, 
i went to pets at home in mind of getting the naturediet tray's but they only had two left in puppy ( so many mixed view's about puppy food vs adult that i don't know if adult is the one to go for so just went puppy ) and that was all they had left in stock at the time as well and they said that ww was just as good and that dog's seem to enjoy both, and the fact the ww does a 12 box for 8.99 so it meant i was saving 1.57 buying them in a box than rather in singles , would be better if i could get adult for him as there is more flavours then

i know when changing food it is meant to be done slowly but he came with bakers puppy which is just full of rubbish, but he wont eat it at all, iv tried soaking it in water and he wont even look at it :lol: iv also mixed a little ww with it and it end's up going to the other 2 because he wont touch it with the dry in there, so i have just stopped the dry and am giving him the ww which has made a huge improvement on his poops as he had really bad stinky runny poo's, he will nibble dry food from my hand but what he does take ain't really worth offering him, 
hope he will be ok with a change over like this?

many thanks to both of you as i said a huge help on this as i was worried that in 4 day's he had only eaten about two egg cup size amounts of food, i know with stress he would go off his food anyway but it just didn't feel right as he was hungry and did want to eat just not the bakers puppy


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## katesk9s

I would love to add a comment to this thread i feel very strongly about what people feed there dogs but im also keen on it being practical and a reasonable price. I have just done a course and i spoke to a trainer whos friend had written a book on k9 nutrition there are 2 dry food thats come up at the BEST quality and i think a reasonable price they are Salters and Burns. if you feed your dog this there should be no reason to need to add ANYTHING else to there diet as when you add meat or oil or gravy it changes the whole thing nutritional wise and changes the balance of everything. the worst food is BAKERS look on the box t how many e numbers there are it would be like feeding your kids mc donalds everyday and i just found out the hyper dogs i have are ALL on bakers ! point proven there .


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## soulful dog

Sixstar I wonder if you (or anyone else that's clued up on food!) can give me some advice on the following foods?

I'll need to try my dog on another food as he needs to lose a bit of weight (he's not fat, just needs to be as lean as possible due to having hip dysplasia). He's been getting Skinners Duck & Rice but the vet suggested that as it's Field & Trial (for working dogs), that might be why he's not lost any weight despite cutting down how much he's fed.

I've already bought a bag of Skinners Senior & Light to try, but I've been reading how these senior/light foods tend to just bulk up on grain, which isn't meant to be good for arthritis, and that combined with less protein isn't necessarily the answer to losing weight. I wonder if I'd be better trying the standard Skinners Chicken & Rice Sensitive, or I spotted Kirklands Senior Dog food in Costco today, and thought it looked better than the Skinners?

*Skinners Senior & Light*

Ingredients: Maize, naked oats, chicken meat meal, rice, beet pulp, white fish meal, whole egg, brewer's yeast, sunflower oil, vitamins, minerals and trace elements, whole linseed.
Crude Protein - 17.5%
Crude Oils & Fats - 8.5%
Crude Fibres - 3%
Crude Ash - 5.5%

*Skinners Chicken & Rice*

Ingredients: Maize, chicken meat meal (17.5% min), whole rice (15% min), oats, chicken fat, white fish meal, vitamins, minerals and trace elements, brewer's yeast, culinary herb mix.

Crude Protein - 20%
Crude Oils & Fats - 8%
Crude Fibres - 2%
Crude Ash - 5.5%

*Kirklands Senior Dog Food*

Ingredients: chicken (14%), chicken meal (14%), whole grain brown rice (12.9%), egg produce (11%), oatmeal (11%), cracked pearled barley (11%), brewers rice (11%), fat (4%), beet pulp (3%), potato (2.5%), natural chicken flavour (2.5%), flaxseed, millet, carrots, peas, cranberry powder, potassium cholride, choline chloride, rosemary extract, glucosamine, dried chicory root, vitamin e supplement.

Crude Protein - 27%
Crude Fat - 12%
Crude Fibres - 2%
Crude Ash - 6.9%
Moisture - 10%


----------



## SixStar

soulful dog said:


> Sixstar I wonder if you (or anyone else that's clued up on food!) can give me some advice on the following foods?
> 
> I'll need to try my dog on another food as he needs to lose a bit of weight (he's not fat, just needs to be as lean as possible due to having hip dysplasia). He's been getting Skinners Duck & Rice but the vet suggested that as it's Field & Trial (for working dogs), that might be why he's not lost any weight despite cutting down how much he's fed.
> 
> I've already bought a bag of Skinners Senior & Light to try, but I've been reading how these senior/light foods tend to just bulk up on grain, which isn't meant to be good for arthritis, and that combined with less protein isn't necessarily the answer to losing weight. I wonder if I'd be better trying the standard Skinners Chicken & Rice Sensitive, or I spotted Kirklands Senior Dog food in Costco today, and thought it looked better than the Skinners?
> 
> *Skinners Senior & Light*
> 
> Ingredients: Maize, naked oats, chicken meat meal, rice, beet pulp, white fish meal, whole egg, brewer's yeast, sunflower oil, vitamins, minerals and trace elements, whole linseed.
> Crude Protein - 17.5%
> Crude Oils & Fats - 8.5%
> Crude Fibres - 3%
> Crude Ash - 5.5%
> 
> *Skinners Chicken & Rice*
> 
> Ingredients: Maize, chicken meat meal (17.5% min), whole rice (15% min), oats, chicken fat, white fish meal, vitamins, minerals and trace elements, brewers yeast, culinary herb mix.
> 
> Crude Protein - 20%
> Crude Oils & Fats - 8%
> Crude Fibres - 2%
> Crude Ash - 5.5%
> 
> *Kirklands Senior Dog Food*
> 
> Ingredients: chicken (14%), chicken meal (14%), whole grain brown rice (12.9%), egg produce (11%), oatmeal (11%), cracked pearled barley (11%), brewers rice (11%), fat (4%), beet pulp (3%), potato (2.5%), natural chicken flavour (2.5%), flaxseed, millet, carrots, peas, cranberry powder, potassium cholride, choline chloride, rosemary extract, glucosamine, dried chicory root, vitamin e supplement.
> 
> Crude Protein - 27%
> Crude Fat - 12%
> Crude Fibres - 2%
> Crude Ash - 6.9%
> Moisture - 10%


Are those the only foods you have to choose from? Personally, if I'm being honest, I wouldn't feed any of them - although if I absolutely had to choose, I'd go for the last one, but IMO, it's the best of a bad bunch.

I don't think there is much difference between working dog food and normal food to be honest, apart from the price, so really I'd think cutting down the regular Skinners you are using should work, even if it means reducing further and adding vegetables to bulk the meal and fill him up.

Burns food - although very, very rice heavy and shockingly priced, given the ingredients, is said to get weight off of dogs.


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## soulful dog

Thanks SixStar. No they're not the only foods, but price rules out the good quality stuff. He's been fine on the Skinners Duck & Rice but his weight has slowly been creeping up from 28kg to 32kg (he's been neutered since we got him). He's been on reduced exercise for a few months now and from a feeding guideline of around 370g he's been getting 300g. The vet weighed him last week and his weight has went up (might be down to the hydrotherapy) so he's now reduced down to 250g, but they recommended we perhaps try a different dog food.

The problem is, apart from Burns (too expensive anyway), the suggestions I've been given are Beta, Chappie, or even Wagg, which I find pretty astonishing. None of them seem to have much problem with what they feed their dogs as long as it's not full of sugar.


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## AngusWhitton

> I don't think there is much difference between working dog food and normal food to be honest, apart from the price, so really I'd think cutting down the regular Skinners you are using should work, even if it means reducing further and adding vegetables to bulk the meal and fill him up.


Working dog food is 'Vat free' and it's normally the cheaper brands which apply for this exemption (which is now being so abused that I suspect HMRC will take a close look at things soon). It means that two bags could have a completely identical content - down to the last molecule - but the bag with the working dog label would sell for £20 and the bag with no working dog label would be £24.

You can't however just stick a label on a bag - the manufacturer must obtain an exemption from HMRC


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## Fluffymum

Awesome post thank you sixstar, I really agree with the "dogs don't need grain" and am looking to order in fish 4 dog and fish 4 cat to my local pet shop, I hope we can afford to feed it though even though I know it's cheaper in the long run.
I really disagree with some of these foods and don't know how to get people to realise what they are buying and why it also works out more money for them, ive said it before to people but theyve continued to use the food which is their choice but I just don't understand why people don't want the best for their pets but then again this extends to Children too, ive done so much research into everything that involves my daughter and so far every normal thing millions of others do we have not, it's actuallyshocking what goes on and the lack of info but that's for anoter forum lol.

Anyway thanks again for the post


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## little tally

Hi guys,
Unsure where to post this but here seems appropriate. We have had continual problems with Frankie's poo since we got him. Initially put down to stress but as it has continued it seems it is more likely to be diet related.
When we first got him we were provided with a small bag of food from the rescue centre and we fed him that, then slowly mixed it with, then changed to, purina beta puppy.
Having read this thread and having further problems with him, we decided we needed to make a change. We went to our local pet shop yesterday and the lovely lady there let Frank "try before we buy" and he sampled a couple of little bits of other foods. By far his favourite was the fish kibble by JWB. We've bought a kilo to start with and we're in the process of mixing this before changing him fully.
Does this seem like a sensible idea to you? I'm concerned because a stomach that poorly can't be good for any dog, let alone a 15 week old pup. He is struggling to keep clean through the night when initially he managed just fine.
I hadn't realsised what an absolute minefield it was choosing a suitable food for a dog. I'm really thankful for the posts on here as they have been hugely helpful. I wish I could feed him something that was the best of everything, but price dictates that this can't happen. I just want his little belly to be ok!! Thanks 

Edit: Also just to add, since the change we have also started to feed dry, as we were adding water to the beta puppy as advised, but everything was so loose coming out the other end that we felt this could be adding to the problem? And as our local pet shop lady says, they have teeth for crunching! It's also helped Frankie slow down his eating, as before he would inhale it at such a pace that he would end up with hiccups each meal time!


----------



## SixStar

Hi little tally, welcome to the forum.

Sorry to hear you are having problems with your little ones tum - James Wellbeloved fish & rice kibble, whilst not a bad food, it does have a lot of rice in that alot of dogs are intolerant too, and can trigger a bout of stomach upsets. James Wellbeloved do a fish & vegetable kibble too which I think would personally be more worth while trying (of course you might already be talking about the fish & veg kibble, since you didn't mention exactly what JWB fish kibble it was, so ignore that if it's the veg kibble you have!) - grain free foods are nearly always better for dogs with dicky tums, although definitely stick with the fish variety, as fish based diets tend to be gentler on the stomach. 

Feeding kibble dry or soaked in water is really a personal choice - dry is a tiny bit better for the teeth and I think most dogs do enjoy the crunch of a hard kibble, whilst soaking it in water is said to be better for digestion (and is safer if you have a breed prone to bloat).

Good luck - you're right when you say dog food is a minefield!!


----------



## little tally

Thanks SixStar 

Just to update, things got so bad this morning that I decided to take Frankie to the vets. He has been diagnosed with a doggy version of colitis, poor thing!

Our vet has put him onto a specialist food (Eukanuba digestive something or other) for a week, and a course of antibiotics. Fingers crossed it'll help the poor pup out!

It was actually a really worth while trip as the vet has assured us that in every other respect we're doing everything right for him! Phew! Deep down we know that but it's always nice to have someone let you know it too!

The vet said he was pleased we were changing to JWB although he thought Beta puppy was decent too, but thinks that with the colitis may also come some intolerance, so a hypoallergenic style food such as JWB would really benefit Frank. The plan is to run the course of Eukanuba for a week then slowly phase in the JWB and hope for the best!

Watch this space!!!


----------



## AnnC

Where does chudleys come in this?


----------



## SixStar

AnnC said:


> Where does chudleys come in this?


What variety?


----------



## AnnC

Working crunch/mix & senior


----------



## SixStar

AnnC said:


> Working crunch/mix & senior


*CHUDLEYS WORKING*

*Price (15kg):* £15
*Suggested daily amount:* 300g
*Daily feeding cost:* 30p

*Ingredients:* Chicken meal, wheat, maize, wheatfeed, chicken fat, unmolassed beet pulp, full fat linseed, prairie meal, yeast, rape oil, salmon oil, salt, seaweed, dandelion, celery, nettle, burdock root, devils claw root, yucca, green lipped mussel, blackcurrant, kale, spinach, beetroot, rosemary, rosehip, pomegranate

Lots of nice natural extracts but second and third ingredients are wheat and maize which puts it in the red straight - a very poor quality food IMO.

*CHUDLEYS SENIOR*

*Price (15kg):* £19
*Suggested daily amount:* 290g
*Daily feeding cost:* 37p

*Ingredients:*Wheat, chicken meal, maize, oats, chicken liver, rice, unmolassed beet pulp, wheatfeed, chicken fat, full fat linseed, prairie meal, yeast, salmon oil, salt, milk thistle, seaweed, mannan oligosaccharides, green lipped mussel, dandelion, celery seed, nettle, yucca, devils claw root, burdock, blackcurrant, kale, spinach, beetroot, rosemary, rosehip, pomegranate 

As per the Working food, very high in wheat and maize - this one has rice and oats too which are just more fillers.


----------



## AnnC

There is such an array of dog feed out there, how do I go about selecting one which meets his needs? I've thought about Eukanuba but its mega bucks. 
I've tried increasing his daily intake which first of all went down well but now he's not bothering. 

So it would appear that he needs high protien/fat but less fillers now where do I find a feed like that?


----------



## Butchcass

Could we possibly get the websites where these foods are cheapest posted beside them??


----------



## SixStar

Butchcass said:


> Could we possibly get the websites where these foods are cheapest posted beside them??


Afraid not - I've used all the available text in the first post (hence why I'm not able to add new listings to the main listing and am adding them separately in posts as and when instead) - and besides, I've done the research and maths - you lot can do your own bargain hunting!!


----------



## Butchcass

I've been looking and so far I've narrowed the cheapest down to:

Feedem
Medicanimal
and
Swellpets

Does anyone have any more sites that are good??


----------



## SixStar

Have a look at VetUK, Berriewoods, Pet Supermarket, Zooplus, Animed and Viovet too.


----------



## Butchcass

I thought you weren't helping Six??


----------



## SixStar

Haha! Well, yes, erm.. I'm just so lovely you see!!  

That or I just spend FAR too much time looking at online pet shops!!


----------



## Guest

HeartofClass said:


> Would anyone be able to tell me something about this food? I'm not really knowledgeable enough to be able to judge by the ingredients.
> 
> ingredients: cereals, meat and meat by-products (20% poultry), oils and fats, vegetable by-products (0.4% inulin), fish and fish by-products, yeast, vegetable, mineral substances.
> 
> component analysis: Protein 25%, 16% crude fat, crude fiber 2.5%, ash 6.5%, 1.3% calcium, phosphorus 1%


Too much protein, too much fat and cereals shouldn't be the first ingredient if any of the ingredients at all and the fact it has "by-products" I would say overall this is really not a good food!!

To give you an idea there should be no more than 22% protein and 12% fat (based on a healthy, normal, adult dog - it differs if the dog is pregnant or lactating) and it should just say "chicken" or "lamb" for example and not "by products" as this is beaks, feathers etc of no nutritional value !!


----------



## Super Squirrel

keeleyjane19 said:


> Too much protein, too much fat and cereals shouldn't be the first ingredient if any of the ingredients at all and the fact it has "by-products" I would say overall this is really not a good food!!
> 
> To give you an idea there should be no more than 22% protein and 12% fat (based on a healthy, normal, adult dog - it differs if the dog is pregnant or lactating) and it should just say "chicken" or "lamb" for example and not "by products" as this is beaks, feathers etc of no nutritional value !!


Yes, that is a nasty dog food!

Out of interest, where do your figures of "no more than 22% protein and 12% fat" come from?


----------



## Guest

Super Squirrel said:


> Yes, that is a nasty dog food!
> 
> Out of interest, where do your figures of "no more than 22% protein and 12% fat" come from?


I am studying Canine Nutrition and just finished an assignment on the requirements of the 6 main nutrient groups for dogs which included Protein and Fats  xx


----------



## Goblin

keeleyjane19 said:


> Too much protein, too much fat and cereals shouldn't be the first ingredient if any of the ingredients at all and the fact it has "by-products" I would say overall this is really not a good food!!
> 
> To give you an idea there should be no more than 22% protein and 12% fat (based on a healthy, normal, adult dog - it differs if the dog is pregnant or lactating) and it should just say "chicken" or "lamb" for example and not "by products" as this is beaks, feathers etc of no nutritional value !!


It's easy to say too much protein but why? Why does the % matter when it can be changed simply by adding fillers which show up in a lab test or not as protein. For the label it doesn't matter if it's a quality protein for dogs, it's simply the lab test that matters.

When you consider a dog is a carnivore and something like wild boar meat has a protein % of 28%, beef at 22%, it may possibly change your perspective. Meat is around 70% water. If this water would magically be removed what happens to the protein%? Is this no longer a decent thing to feed your dog?

In my mind it's the quality/source of the protein, not the %.


----------



## lola belle

I'm inclined to agree with Goblin........
Also all dogs are different,even within a breed. Who says a dog shouldn't have more than 22% protein, before the advent of "complete" foods it would have been unheard of to hear such a thing. Shoot me down if you like !!


----------



## Super Squirrel

Fair play that you are doing a canine nutrition course but would be interested to see what the actual source of information is for the basis of those figures. Do they take into account the protein source i.e. from meat or from cereal?

Where can you do a canine nutrition course? I might be interested too!


----------



## Guest

It's based overall - just like feed labels the protein percentage is an overall figure. It is bad for normal adult healthy dogs to have too much protein as this can cause kidney failure. I can relate to what you're saying. I am still completing my course and your comments are helping as this is what I can look upon and prompt my tutor with !! 

Don't shoot me for studying !! I am learning like we all are !!


----------



## Goblin

keeleyjane19 said:


> It's based overall - just like feed labels the protein percentage is an overall figure. It is bad for normal adult healthy dogs to have too much protein as this can cause kidney failure.


According to which study? As far as I know the studies which showed protein damage to kidneys were based on rats or humans, not dogs.



> Don't shoot me for studying !! I am learning like we all are !!


I'm not targeting you personally. I'm generally interested but there are occasions when courses are wrong, not taking the latest information into account, continuing old assumptions etc. It's sometimes necessary to actually question what you are being taught.

Interesting article you may like to read:
http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/myths_of_high_protein.pdf
Although being from Orijin (therefore biased) it could serve as a starting point for additional research into the topic.


----------



## Guest

Goblin said:


> According to which study? As far as I know the studies which showed protein damage to kidneys were based on rats or humans, not dogs.
> 
> I'm not targeting you personally. I'm generally interested but there are occasions when courses are wrong, not taking the latest information into account, continuing old assumptions etc. It's sometimes necessary to actually question what you are being taught.
> 
> Interesting article you may like to read:
> http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/myths_of_high_protein.pdf
> Although being from Orijin (therefore biased) it could serve as a starting point for additional research into the topic.


Thank you for your comments. It's all information I have been given by my tutor. I will be looking into all of this in my following assignments  At the moment I'm working on the advantages and disadvantages of different feeding regimes (dry, moist, raw etc) so still a way to go !! xx


----------



## Guest

Obviously good Protein is highly important to dogs as it is required for energy, growth, maintenance of muscle tissues, the structure of cells and regulates metabolism. What I have learnt through my own research is protein must be of good quality to be beneficial to the dog and that dogs store surplus protein as fat and stored. Nothing I have researched indicates kidney failure at this point. Proteins are made up of amino acids which are vital to the dog as they cannot synthesise some of them. Amino acids play a huge role in many functions of the dog. Confusing stuff lol  xx


----------



## bethj

would it be possible for CSJ natural champ to be added.
i know its not a very good food but wanted to see it against the others
Thanks


----------



## SixStar

bethj said:


> would it be possible for CSJ natural champ to be added.
> i know its not a very good food but wanted to see it against the others
> Thanks


Hi, can't add anything new to the original main listing because I've used up all available text, but will certainly add it here -

*CSJ CHAMP*

*Price (15kg):* £10.75
*Suggested daily amount:* 300g
*Daily feeding cost:* 21p

*Ingredients:* Wheat, beef & lamb meal, maize, chicken fat, chicken liver, unmolassed beet pulp, alfalfa, salmon oil, salt, yucca schidigera

Yep, as you said - not a very good food at all. Packed with cereals and an un-specified meat content :thumbdown:


----------



## bethj

SixStar said:


> Hi, can't add anything new to the original main listing because I've used up all available text, but will certainly add it here -
> 
> *CSJ CHAMP*
> 
> *Price (15kg):* £10.75
> *Suggested daily amount:* 300g
> *Daily feeding cost:* 21p
> 
> *Ingredients:* Wheat, beef & lamb meal, maize, chicken fat, chicken liver, unmolassed beet pulp, alfalfa, salmon oil, salt, yucca schidigera
> 
> Yep, as you said - not a very good food at all. Packed with cereals and an un-specified meat content :thumbdown:


Thank you


----------



## Ponge69

Hi SixStar

Having spent many hours reading the wonderful Index you have created I have changed my 1 year old dogs diet to Nature Diet trays and Barking Heads, Fusspot, Salmon and Potato kibble.

Is it ok to mix the two feeds together?

The dogs love it, but they also loved the Pedigree puppy tins we had been feeding them. Would never do that again!

Thank you

Ponge69


----------



## SixStar

Ponge69 said:


> Hi SixStar
> 
> Having spent many hours reading the wonderful Index you have created I have changed my 1 year old dogs diet to Nature Diet trays and Barking Heads, Fusspot, Salmon and Potato kibble.
> 
> Is it ok to mix the two feeds together?
> 
> The dogs love it, but they also loved the Pedigree puppy tins we had been feeding them. Would never do that again!
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Ponge69


Fabulous!  when I hear things like that it makes all the time spent on these threads worthwhile! 

Yes, it's absolutely fine to mix Naturediet and Barking Heads together.


----------



## toryb

There is simpsons aswell 

Simpsons Premium - Complete Dry Dog Food


----------



## SixStar

toryb said:


> There is simpsons aswell
> 
> Simpsons Premium - Complete Dry Dog Food


Hi Tory - Simpsons is included the Index (first page) already


----------



## toryb

SixStar said:


> Hi Tory - Simpsons is included the Index (first page) already


:blushing: sorry! I did check too...loosing my marbles!


----------



## toryb

We feed the grain free salmon and potato so that's what I was checking for...will read properly next time!


----------



## SixStar

toryb said:


> We feed the grain free salmon and potato so that's what I was checking for...will read properly next time!


Ah don't worry! I'd rate all Simpsons food the same as the one listed, which I think is the lamb & rice (not sure without checking back!)


----------



## SueBoo

It seems very vague what makes a food 'premium'.

I am new to this so still learning but from what I have read in regards to the Simpsons product above for example, rice isn't really a neccesary part of a dogs diet or easily digestible, chicken meal could be pretty much anything and it seems to have a load of other bits in it which don't sound very natural. I have also read a lot of things that suggest the ingredients in kibble are almost completely void of their natural nutrients due to the heavy cooking temps and processing.

I just get the feeling that the bar for top quality dog food hasn't been set very high, or am I missing some other great foods as the best I have seen seem a similar standard to the above?


----------



## EagleC

Our pup is currently being fed fish4dogs by the breeder and after reading this I think we will definately stick with it. Its interesting to see that its actually one of the most expensive but definately worth it I think!!
Great thread. Out of interest, what is it that you are studying exactly?


----------



## SixStar

SueBoo said:


> It seems very vague what makes a food 'premium'.
> 
> I am new to this so still learning but from what I have read in regards to the Simpsons product above for example, rice isn't really a neccesary part of a dogs diet or easily digestible, chicken meal could be pretty much anything and it seems to have a load of other bits in it which don't sound very natural. I have also read a lot of things that suggest the ingredients in kibble are almost completely void of their natural nutrients due to the heavy cooking temps and processing.
> 
> I just get the feeling that the bar for top quality dog food hasn't been set very high, or am I missing some other great foods as the best I have seen seem a similar standard to the above?


The orange rating  which the Simpons food you mention has  isnt the highest. Its the middle of the road  could be better, could be worse  type food. Its no where near the highest quality food available. Green listed foods are the best, as far as kibble goes (merely in my opinion of course).

Ive always said dogs do not need grains in their diet, its something I am a firm believer in, which is why any food with grain (even if the rest of the ingredients are reasonable) are marked down to an orange and I only consider the grain free, high meat content foods to be green.

Chicken meal isnt anything. Its exactly that  chicken meal. Just chicken meat with the moisture content removed. Maybe you are thinking of derivatives?

The way Ive graded the foods is never going to please everyone, and there are immensely differing opinions when it comes to feeding dogs, so well never get everyone to agree. This thread is a VERY basis rough reference point, and should only be used as such 



EagleC said:


> Our pup is currently being fed fish4dogs by the breeder and after reading this I think we will definately stick with it. Its interesting to see that its actually one of the most expensive but definately worth it I think!!
> Great thread. Out of interest, what is it that you are studying exactly?


Im not studying anything  it was another poster than mentioned studying some canine nutrition course. 

I personally hold no qualifications in, nor have formally studied, canine nutrition.


----------



## SueBoo

SixStar said:


> The way Ive graded the foods is never going to please everyone, and there are immensely differing opinions when it comes to feeding dogs, so well never get everyone to agree. This thread is a VERY basis rough reference point, and should only be used as such


Thanks for the response  My comments about the standard of dog foods were not in referece to the way you have graded them by the way. I think the index you have put together is very useful. I was talking about the pet food manufacturer's in general that seem to imply through their branding that it is high quality when often it is not.

Owners who have not read resources such as this index could feed their dogs below par foods for their entire lives and not know is what I thought was slightly alarming.


----------



## chugmum

Hi, This is my first post, so apologies if I am asking stuff that has been covered before!

Thanks for a brilliant thread SixStar! This is really useful. 

I have spent the afternoon reading through this whole thread and just wondered about what has been said about working dog food. Is it really true, there isn't much difference to the usual stuff? I have a pug x chihuahua, so couldn't be further removed from the working kind. 

We have just got him (5mths old) and are in the process of gently changing him to a variety of Barking Heads - Applaws -Fish4Dogs (he has been on Bakers at his old owner's) pleased to see we're on the right track.

chugmum


----------



## SixStar

Really pleased it has been of use to you  Congrats on the new puppy!

Yes, there is very little difference between regular and working dog food - bar the price! Working foods are absolutely fine for pet dogs.

Pleased to hear you're making the change from Bakers - the foods you've chosen are all fine, lucky pup!


----------



## chugmum

Well might have a look at some of those then! Then he can run around the park, telling his mates he works for a living


----------



## button50

My 5 month old Puppy is on Pets at Home Advanced Nutrition dry food and he absolutely loves it, has anyone else used this?


----------



## SueBoo

Does anyone have any experience of Robbie's Holistic Cuisine on Land of Holistic Pets 

I haven't seen it listed in this thread but know it is not strictly kibble even though it is dry as the process used to make it is dehydration ( or at least I think that is right  ).

What is everyone's thoughts?


----------



## secretpennell

I'd really like your comments on Markus Muehle please. It smells like a wet food I fed years ago that was "Battenburg" shaped!
Also - Gelert Country Choice?
Thank you for all this work you've done!!


----------



## SixStar

SueBoo said:


> Does anyone have any experience of Robbie's Holistic Cuisine on Land of Holistic Pets
> 
> I haven't seen it listed in this thread but know it is not strictly kibble even though it is dry as the process used to make it is dehydration ( or at least I think that is right  ).
> 
> What is everyone's thoughts?


*ROBBIES (chicken & rice)*

*Price (10kg):* £49.80
*Suggested daily amount:* ??
*Daily feeding cost:* ??

*Ingredients:* Brown rice, pearl rice, chicken, oats, chicken fat, green beans, carrots, spinach, sunflower oil, seaweed, sage, oregano, green tea, parsley, chicory, vitamins, minerals. 

It's very high in rice and oats, and it doesn't state exactly how much chicken is in it, none of which I like. But it appears to be a reasonable all natural food. I can't find any feeding guidelines, so cannot work out the daily feeding cost yet - I've emailed them, and will update when they've replied with the info.



secretpennell said:


> I'd really like your comments on Markus Muehle please. It smells like a wet food I fed years ago that was "Battenburg" shaped!
> Also - Gelert Country Choice?
> Thank you for all this work you've done!!


* MARKUS MUHLE (NaturNah formula)*

*Price (15kg):* £36.99
*Suggested daily amount:* 150g
*Daily feeding cost:* 36p

*Ingredients:* Poultry meat meal (27%), whole grain corn flour (13%), brown rice flour (13%), wild rumen meal (5%), rice germ, wild-bone meal, corn germ, jerusalem artichoke flour, beet powder, sea fish meal (5%), linseed oil, rapeseed oil, fruit powder (from locust beans, pineapple, papaya, banana, acerola cherry, apple, pear, blueberry, mango, raspberry), herbs, egg yolk powder, salmon oil, algae meal, trace elements, vitamins. 

Another one with alot of grain, including corn (maize) which I really do not like, but otherwise, it's a reasonable food with all natural ingredients. I picked up a sample of this at Crufts and my dogs loved it - the kibble was very unusual, not like biscuit at all.

So many different products in the Gelert Country Choice range of varying quality. What one in particular are you interested in?


----------



## secretpennell

Thank you very much.  We had a sample of MM and my dog absolutely loved it too.
I'm interested in all the adult ones of these -
Gelert Country Choice - hypoallergenic dog food for working dogs and sporting dogs


----------



## SixStar

secretpennell said:


> Thank you very much.  We had a sample of MM and my dog absolutely loved it too.
> I'm interested in all the adult ones of these -
> Gelert Country Choice - hypoallergenic dog food for working dogs and sporting dogs


*GELERT COUNTRY CHOICE (premium range, lamb & rice)*

*Price (15kg):* £29.95
*Suggested daily amount:* 225g
*Daily feeding cost:* 45p

*Ingredients:*Lamb meat meal (min 35%), rice (min 30%) maize, barley, chicken oil, dried brewers yeast, salmon oil, vitamins, minerals, mannan-oigosaccharide, glucosamine, chondroitin. 

I'm glad you said the premium range which looks quite good, rather than the standard range which is shocking!

The premium lamb & rice is pretty much identical to Arden Grange - it contains some maize (a big turn off for me) but otherwise, it's a good middle of the range kibble. The lamb one is the best, containing 35% meal, compared to around 20% in the other flavours.


----------



## SueBoo

SixStar said:


> *ROBBIES (chicken & rice)*
> 
> *Price (10kg):* £49.80
> *Suggested daily amount:* ??
> *Daily feeding cost:* ??
> 
> *Ingredients:* Brown rice, pearl rice, chicken, oats, chicken fat, green beans, carrots, spinach, sunflower oil, seaweed, sage, oregano, green tea, parsley, chicory, vitamins, minerals.
> 
> It's very high in rice and oats, and it doesn't state exactly how much chicken is in it, none of which I like. But it appears to be a reasonable all natural food. I can't find any feeding guidelines, so cannot work out the daily feeding cost yet - I've emailed them, and will update when they've replied with the info.


Thanks  What are your thoughts on the dehydration process used to make it? I guess the ingredients would retain more of the natural nutrients than with a harsher cooking process


----------



## SixStar

SueBoo said:


> Thanks  What are your thoughts on the dehydration process used to make it? I guess the ingredients would retain more of the natural nutrients than with a harsher cooking process


I won't pretent to know enough about it to comment to be honest!


----------



## secretpennell

That's good enough for me. My dogs have been on the Gelert Premium (alternating lamb, chicken, fish) for a while and are looking very fit - but I was waiting for your comments with bated breath!
Thank you. x


----------



## Stelesque

Thank you so much for this thread! My dog has eaten Taste of the Wild over here in the USA and although she's not on it now, at least we know it works for her so may be an option once she's in the UK (if we can drive 2 hours to buy some...!:wink5

Thanks for such a helpful list.


----------



## SueBoo

Stelesque said:


> Thank you so much for this thread! My dog has eaten Taste of the Wild over here in the USA and although she's not on it now, at least we know it works for her so may be an option once she's in the UK (if we can drive 2 hours to buy some...!:wink5
> 
> Thanks for such a helpful list.


I know that Taste of the Wild was included in the latest pet food recall in the US. I don't know if there is still a problem with it or if the UK product is actually imported from the US or manufactured here but it might be worth checking out first.


----------



## organic86

This has and will be very helpfull, bookmarked and saved! Many thanks again


----------



## Guest

Hello, I would be interested in your review of the salmon all in one adult food by The Natural Dog Food Company please 

All in One Adult Salmon
Fresh Scottish Salmon (min 24%), Whole Brown rice (min 24%), Whole Oats, Dried Scottish Salmon (min 13%), Mixed Vegetables & Herbs (min 9.25%), Whole Barley, Linseed, Refined Chicken Oil, Brewers Yeast, Sugar Beet, Seaweed
Typical Analysis - Protein 20%, Oil 8.5%, Fibre 3%, Ash 5% 

Following your colour guide I would say orange/green...it is very good with regards to its meat content however there are quite a few grains...would you agree? 

xx


----------



## Amy-manycats

Not my thread to grade it but bare in mind 24% fresh salmon becomes much less once you take the water out. The grain far out weighs the meat.


----------



## sianrees1979

what would you rate arden grange sensitive (just for me to know  )

Ingredients
Potato (min. 42%), White Fishmeal* (haddock) (min. 26%), Beet Pulp, Chicken Oil*, Linseed, Fish Oil*, Dried Brewers Yeast, Egg Powder, Minerals, Vitamins, Nucleotides, Prebiotic FOS, Prebiotic MOS, Cranberry Extract, Chondroitin Sulphate, Glucosamine Sulphate, MSM, Yucca Extract *Preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract.

Typical Analysis
Protein 25%, Oil 14%, Fibre 3%, Ash 7%, Moisture 8%, Omega6 4.89%, Omega3 1.27%, Vitamin A 15,000 IU/Kg, Vitamin D3 1,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E 100 IU/kg, Calcium 2.3%, Phosphorous P 1.4%, Copper 20mg/kg (as Cupric Sulphate).


----------



## Guest

Amy-manycats said:


> Not my thread to grade it but bare in mind 24% fresh salmon becomes much less once you take the water out. The grain far out weighs the meat.


Very true, 13% is guaranteed from the "dried" source but it will drop significantly with the "fresh" source xx


----------



## dave4443

cheers for the info, very well researched but there are alot of reds. 
i usually buy royal canine but might change, costing way too much!


----------



## SixStar

keeleyjane19 said:


> Hello, I would be interested in your review of the salmon all in one adult food by The Natural Dog Food Company please
> Following your colour guide I would say orange/green...it is very good with regards to its meat content however there are quite a few grains...would you agree?
> 
> xx


*NATURAL DOG FOOD COMPANY (salmon & rice)*

*Price (15kg):* £42.95
*Suggested daily amount:* 150g
*Daily feeding cost:* 42p

*Ingredients:* Fresh salmon (min 24%), rice (24%), oats, dried salmon (min 13%), mixed vegetables (9%), herbs, barley, whole linseed, chicken oil, brewers yeast, sugar beet, seaweed.

The salmon Natural Dog Food Company kibble is listed on the first page, but will whack it here for you too to save you trudging back to look.

As mentioned by Amymanycats, the majority of the salmon is fresh rather than in meal form, which drastically lowers the actual fish content in the food once the moisture content has been removed. It's not a bad food - is all natural and meat content is respectable, but it's very grain heavy contain rice, oats and barley.



sianrees1979 said:


> what would you rate arden grange sensitive (just for me to know  )


*ARDEN GRANGE (sensitive, ocean white fish & potato)*

*Price (15kg):* £39.99
*Suggested daily amount:* 220g
*Daily feeding cost:* 58p

*Ingredients:* Potato (min 42%), white fishmeal (haddock] min 26%), beet pulp, chicken oil, linseed, fish oil, dried brewers yeast, egg powder, minerals, vitamins, nucleotides, prebiotic FOS, prebiotic MOS, cranberry extract, chondroitin sulphate, glucosamine sulphate, MSM, yucca extract 

A good basic grain free diet  - should be good for dicky tums.


----------



## Guest

Here's another food to rate !! 

Rice (35%), Chicken meal (25%), Whole oats (25%), Chicken fat, Chicken liver, Peas, Full fat linseed, Salmon oil, Salt, Manna oligosacchandes (2,000mg/kg), Glucosamine (1,000mg/kg), Yucca schidigera.


----------



## SixStar

keeleyjane19 said:


> Here's another food to rate !!
> 
> Rice (35%), Chicken meal (25%), Whole oats (25%), Chicken fat, Chicken liver, Peas, Full fat linseed, Salmon oil, Salt, Manna oligosacchandes (2,000mg/kg), Glucosamine (1,000mg/kg), Yucca schidigera.


Thanks, will do. What food is it? Just for future reference for others.


----------



## Guest

SixStar said:


> Thanks, will do. What food is it? Just for future reference for others.


SPR Premium Chicken dog food @ £19.95/15kg


----------



## SixStar

keeleyjane19 said:


> Here's another food to rate !!
> 
> Rice (35%), Chicken meal (25%), Whole oats (25%), Chicken fat, Chicken liver, Peas, Full fat linseed, Salmon oil, Salt, Manna oligosacchandes (2,000mg/kg), Glucosamine (1,000mg/kg), Yucca schidigera.





keeleyjane19 said:


> SPR Premium Chicken dog food @ £19.95/15kg


*SPR PREMIUM (chicken)*

*Price (15kg):* £19.95
*Suggested daily amount:* ?
*Daily feeding cost:* ?

*Ingredients:* Rice (35%), chicken meal (25%), whole oats (25%), chicken fat, chicken liver, peas, full fat linseed, salmon oil, salt, manna oligosacchandes, glucosamine, yucca schidigera. 

A huge 60% grain which is very, very poor - but at least they're oats and rice which are IMO, better than wheat and maize. Nothing too nasty and a reasonable meat meal content - very similar to Burns, but much cheaper. An acceptable budget diet.


----------



## Guest

Thank you for adding this, I agree !! The grain content is very high !! This is a good thread


----------



## vickieb

Sixstar, can I ask what your thoughts are on Rosemary extract or oil added to foods......??

Seems a lot of better foods contain it as its used as a natural preserve....... but its linked to Seizures in dogs, and since changing to Wainrights (containing rosemary) Ern has had a few seizures....... Just to see if it was the food I have gone back to what he was on before (RC maxi.... he was on this from birth and no health issues, so I thought its deffo worth going back to the start to rule out food issues before pumping full of drugs for seizures )

just wondered what you thought, or anyone reading this thinks about this Rosemary Extract, and if anyone else had issues after changing to a food containing it. 

(Im not saying this is deffo why he is having seizures..... im still ruling it out, its only been 6 days since I changed back and on a knife edge waiting to see if he will have another   )


----------



## SixStar

vickieb said:


> Sixstar, can I ask what your thoughts are on Rosemary extract or oil added to foods......??
> 
> Seems a lot of better foods contain it as its used as a natural preserve....... but its linked to Seizures in dogs, and since changing to Wainrights (containing rosemary) Ern has had a few seizures....... Just to see if it was the food I have gone back to what he was on before (RC maxi.... he was on this from birth and no health issues, so I thought its deffo worth going back to the start to rule out food issues before pumping full of drugs for seizures )
> 
> just wondered what you thought, or anyone reading this thinks about this Rosemary Extract, and if anyone else had issues after changing to a food containing it.
> 
> (Im not saying this is deffo why he is having seizures..... im still ruling it out, its only been 6 days since I changed back and on a knife edge waiting to see if he will have another   )


Hi Vicki, I have replied to your PM


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## rbeaton

Hi I'm new to the forum and just managed to read all 40 pages of this thread !! Phew! As a new dog owner as of this Saturday , this has been really helpful in deciding what to go for. Using your traffic light system I've gone for Applaws lamb and chicken for my 4yr old collie cross. I'm just worried about introducing it too quickly after she's been in the rehoming centre. Any thoughts would be great. Also hoping to move eventually to raw food once I get the hang of things! Great forum by the way x


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## SixStar

rbeaton said:


> Hi I'm new to the forum and just managed to read all 40 pages of this thread !! Phew! As a new dog owner as of this Saturday , this has been really helpful in deciding what to go for. Using your traffic light system I've gone for Applaws lamb and chicken for my 4yr old collie cross. I'm just worried about introducing it too quickly after she's been in the rehoming centre. Any thoughts would be great. Also hoping to move eventually to raw food once I get the hang of things! Great forum by the way x


Glad it has been of use to you - great choice, Applaws is a brilliant kibble! Well done for getting through all 40 pages!

Ask the rehoming centre what your girl is currently being fed on and get some of that in to feed her initially - and then you can slowly introduce the Applaws at a ratio of 90% old food/10% Applaws, 80% old food/20% Applaws etc over a period of ten days or so, until you're feeding no old food and all Applaws 

Fantastic that you're hoping to eventually change onto raw - best of the best IMO :thumbup:


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## Andromeda

What about CJS no Grainer?

Price 15kg- £35.00

Tripe (26%), Potato, Poultry Meal, Chicken Fat, Duck Meal, Chicken Liver, Peas, Salmon Meal (4%), Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Alfalfa, Carrot, Full Fat Linseed, Yeast, Apple, Cellulose, Nettle, Seaweed, Mannan Oligosaccharides (1,500mg/kg), Milk Thistle, Marigold, Tomato, Glucosamine (1,000mg/kg), Dandelion, Celery, Burdock Root, Devils Claw Root, Yucca Schidigera, Blackcurrant, Green Lipped Mussel (100mg/kg), Kale, Beetroot, Rosemary.


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## SixStar

Andromeda said:


> What about CJS no Grainer?


*CJS (No Grainer)*

*Price (15kg):* £35
*Suggested daily amount:* 250g
*Daily feeding cost:* 58p

*Ingredients:* Tripe (26%), potato, poultry meal, chicken fat, duck meal, chicken liver, peas, salmon meal (4%), unmolassed beet pulp, alfalfa, carrot, full fat linseed, yeast, apple, cellulose, nettle, seaweed, mannan oligosaccharides, milk thistle, marigold, tomato, glucosamine, dandelion, celery, burdock root, devils claw root, yucca schidigera, blackcurrant, green lipped mussel (100mg/kg), kale, beetroot, rosemary. 

I think this is the best food in the CJS range. It doesn't state whether the tripe is fresh or meat, which would have a big impact on the meat content of the food, but there is no grain, lots of natural extracts and there is poultry, duck and salmon meals in addition to the tripe, so that ups the meat content.

I have a sample pack of this which I'm using for treats at the moment - big, chunky kibbles which smell really meaty - the dogs love it.

A good budget grain free option :thumbup:


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## Andromeda

Thanks 
I almost ordered it  Almost because they are selling in only in 15kg bags ans what my dogs won't like it? btw they are big fans of triple and liver but who knows. 

Is there any chance that you can update your first post and add all "new" brands which we are talking about on those 40 pages?


----------



## SixStar

Andromeda said:


> Thanks
> I almost ordered it  Almost because they are selling in only in 15kg bags ans what my dogs won't like it? btw they are big fans of triple and liver but who knows.
> 
> Is there any chance that you can update your first post and add all "new" brands which we are talking about on those 40 pages?


Nope, afraid not. I've used all available text in the first post.

CJS will send samples if you email them.


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## Goblin

Part of me sometimes wonders if the information from this thread should be made an article in the Pet encyclopedia as well as here. At least then editing wouldn't be a problem. Just a thought.


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## SixStar

Goblin said:


> Part of me sometimes wonders if the information from this thread should be made an article in the Pet encyclopedia as well as here. At least then editing wouldn't be a problem. Just a thought.


I have considered it a couple of times, but have currently decided against it since it would be open for anyone to edit. Obviously we don't all agree and have the same opinions regarding food, so I thought it had the potential to get very messy and confusing if various other members perhaps edited it to reflect their own opinion?

I know this thread is merely my own opinion, but thought it's maybe simpler/less confusing to have one same opinion, rather than several differing ones (although obviously I'm not saying my opinion is the only one nor necessarily always right!!)?

What do you think?


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## bethj

Hi i wonderd if you could do the same for Millers beef and oats dog food please?


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## Goblin

SixStar said:


> What do you think?


I see your point. Shame as I think a lot of potential information is hidden in the multiple pages.

Then again the same could be said in the raw feeding thread.

Well just a thought.


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## SixStar

bethj said:


> Hi i wonderd if you could do the same for Millers beef and oats dog food please?


Hi Beth - I can't find any ingredients online - if you can provide these then I will do


----------



## Diesel the Crazy Dal

Thanks for this, very informative thread - i was feeding Beta which was recomended by previous breeders but i have now switched to Taste of the wild (the only one apart from Orijen that i can get in my local pet food store at a decent price)


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## Barkley Star

I've been thinking of what to get my dogs for when we are away (camping for instance) and raw is not a viable option*. I would like a good quality, but not overly pricey kibble for two small/medium dogs with low energy requirements. Obviously when hiking or camping, they would need more energy, which would bring them up to a normal energy requirement, I think.

They are a bit fussy/uninterested when it comes to kibble, but we have been successful with JWB Ocean fish and rice. Maybe we should just stick to that, but I have been looking around to see if I could find something better (but similar price) or cheaper (but similar quality). I'm just not sure of where to start! Fish4Dogs (white fish) seems good or possibly Burns? *Bascially, any thoughts on this would be very much appreciated!*

*They get kibble with yoghurt once a week, to keep them use to it and because they love it with yoghurt.


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## SixStar

Fish4Dogs is a fantastic kibble - much better than Burns and JWB which are not bad foods as such, just very heavy on the cereal.

I always keep a bag of grain free kibble in the house for treats and snacks and it's F4D that I've got at the moment - they always go bonkers for it, nice chunky pieces too so not inhaled! It'd definitely be the one I'd recommend, out of the three. But! That said, if they're fine on James Wellbeloved fish & rice, then I can't see any real reason to change


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## HeartofClass

Hey SixStar, would you be able to, by any chance, comment on Bosch? Sorry if it has already been done, I can't find it! Here's the ingredients list for Bosch Sensitive Adult Lamb:


Ingredients:
Rice (min. 37.5 %), lamb meal (min. 20.0 %), barley, animal fat, powdered egg (dehydrated), potatoe protein, beet pulp, linseed, yeast (dehydrated), peas, hydrolysed meat, sodium chloride. 

Analysis:
Crude protein 23.0 %, crude fat 14.0 %, crude fibre 2.5 %, crude ash 6.5 %, calcium 1.2 %, phosphorus 0.85 %, moisture 10.0 %. 

Vitamins and trace elements per kg: Vitamin A 12,000 I. U., vitamin D3 1,200 I. U., vitamin E 70 mg, copper 10 mg, with antioxidant (EC additives).


----------



## SixStar

HeartofClass said:


> Hey SixStar, would you be able to, by any chance, comment on Bosch? Sorry if it has already been done, I can't find it! Here's the ingredients list for Bosch Sensitive Adult Lamb:


* BOSCH (sensitive, lamb & rice)*

*Price (15kg):* £36.90
*Suggested daily amount:* 200g
*Daily feeding cost:* 49p

*Ingredients:* Rice (min 37.5%), lamb meal (min 20%), barley, animal fat, rice gluten, potato protein, beet pulp, whole egg, linseed, hydrolyzed meat, peas, cellulose fibre, yeast, sodium chloride, potassium chloride, mussel, chicory powder. 

Ingredients listed on Zooplus were slightly different to the ones you gave, so have gone with those, but if they're wrong please let me know. It's a reasonable enough food - lots of grain, and unspecified meat sources in the animal fat and hydrolysed meat which isn't great, but it's by no means an atrocious food. You can get much better for the money though


----------



## Suek

Fab thread for those that want guidance on dry food 

I fed Eve on dry up until 4/5 years ago (she's now on raw) so that info would have been invaluable - 

Just a very small piece of constructive criticism - and I only mention it because when i fed dry I always looked at the 'contents' - could you include the protein levels? :thumbsup:

Apologies if someone has already mentioned it as I didnt read all the pages


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## SixStar

Suek said:


> Fab thread for those that want guidance on dry food
> 
> I fed Eve on dry up until 4/5 years ago (she's now on raw) so that info would have been invaluable -
> 
> Just a very small piece of constructive criticism - and I only mention it because when i fed dry I always looked at the 'contents' - could you include the protein levels? :thumbsup:
> 
> Apologies if someone has already mentioned it as I didnt read all the pages


Thanks 

I do wish I had included protein and fat levels, as I think most owners are quite interested in these when looking at a food, however I've used all the available text in the opening post, so unfortunately I can't add any extra info


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## hahgiwoofa

excellent research, thanks

I'm very glad to find mine (Milburns) isn't in the red!! I get it from pet supermarket in 15kg bags usually on offer at 2 (30kg) for £50

thanks x


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## Murphy Dog

Hi - I've read through your pages with much interest, many thanks.

I wondered if you could rate SNEYD'S WONDERDOG PREMIUM PUPPY FOOD?

Protein 29%
Oil 15%
Fibre 2.5%
Ash 7%

Vitamin A 15,000 iu/kg
Vitamin D 2,000 iu/kg
Vitamin E 70 iu/kg
Copper 5 mg/kg

Ingredients: Poultry Meat Meal, Rice, Barley, Maize, Poultry Oils and Fats, Corn Gluten Meal, Full Fatt Linseed, Minerals, Vitamins, Dry Skimmed Milk, Dried Brewers Yeast, Inulin.

We have an 11 week long-haired German Shepherd and have moved from PRO PLAN PUPPY (...given by the breeder) to SKINNERS FIELD & TRIAL PUPPY food. However, we have friends who use and swear by SNEYD'S so hoped you could rate it in comparison to SKINNERS. And which do you think would be better suited to a GSD family pet? Is it a problem that the main ingredient in the SNEYD'S is 'Poultry Meat Meal'? Should we be feeding a better quality food especially within the first 6 or 12 months of our pups life when he'll be doing most of his growing?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks


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## SixStar

Murphy Dog said:


> Hi - I've read through your pages with much interest, many thanks.
> 
> I wondered if you could rate SNEYD'S WONDERDOG PREMIUM PUPPY FOOD?
> 
> Protein 29%
> Oil 15%
> Fibre 2.5%
> Ash 7%
> 
> Vitamin A 15,000 iu/kg
> Vitamin D 2,000 iu/kg
> Vitamin E 70 iu/kg
> Copper 5 mg/kg
> 
> Ingredients: Poultry Meat Meal, Rice, Barley, Maize, Poultry Oils and Fats, Corn Gluten Meal, Full Fatt Linseed, Minerals, Vitamins, Dry Skimmed Milk, Dried Brewers Yeast, Inulin.
> 
> We have an 11 week long-haired German Shepherd and have moved from PRO PLAN PUPPY (...given by the breeder) to SKINNERS FIELD & TRIAL PUPPY food. However, we have friends who use and swear by SNEYD'S so hoped you could rate it in comparison to SKINNERS. And which do you think would be better suited to a GSD family pet? Is it a problem that the main ingredient in the SNEYD'S is 'Poultry Meat Meal'? Should we be feeding a better quality food especially within the first 6 or 12 months of our pups life when he'll be doing most of his growing?
> 
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Many thanks


Hi, welcome to the forum.

I've never heard of that food, but from the ingredients you've provided, I'd rate it a red - we don't know how much meat is in the food, what poultry exactly is used, and there's an awful lot of grain. Having 'meal' used instead of fresh meat is best, but it really needs to be more specific. Skinners puppy food is very similar, and not great - the only food I'd consider from the Skinners range is their duck/salmon field and trial foods.

Puppies do not need puppy food - adult food is just fine - and I'd recommend any green rated food from the Index


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## Murphy Dog

Hi, thanks for the reply.

We decided to buy some James WellBeloved puppy after many hours spent googling and being readily available locally! The web is a great place for research but a complete minefield; for every positive opinion, there's a contradictory opinion, but went with James WellBeloved as in general on most sites it's pretty well rated by all.

We got 3 small bags of James WellBeloved for the price of 2 at Pets at Home, so we'll se how he gets on and whether it makes any difference to his temperament, coat etc. He's a gorgeous pup so want him to have a good start with quality food especially during his first year of growing. But as I've read so often, what works well with one dog doesn't necessarily work for another. Time will tell...


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## clairefun

Fantastic thread! We too have just moved our puppy onto James wellbeloved puppy food (from Waggs, oops!) as again my google-fu seemed to show an generally good average. So far looking good - the 'afternoon-only' diarrhea seems to have cleared up after only a few days and her teensy bald patch has hair growing back. The waggs really didn't suit her! We'll definitely come check this again if this doesn't work out & when we move onto adult food. Thanks!


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## Glencuan

I am very partiular about the dog food I buy. I buy the cheapest in the store. There's one, which is only available here in Northern Ireland, that I wouldn't feed to my worst enemy's dog but apart from that it's all done on price. Sunday to Tuesday is dog food, Wednesday & Thursday chicken frames and Friday & Saturday green tripe. Sometimes I feed Redmills Excel to give a dog a boost in the season but that's the wholefeeding regime.


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## Goblin

Glencuan said:


> I am very partiular about the dog food I buy. I buy the cheapest in the store.


Cheapest in price tag per bag does not necessarily work out cheapest to buy. You also have to look at how many meals is in that bag for your dog. With a cheap food you generally need to feed your dog more of it so it actually can work out more expensive.


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## Dipsy

Brilliant, Much time and effort, Thanks


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## Glencuan

> With a cheap food you generally need to feed your dog more of it so it actually can work out more expensive.


I'll give you that at certain times of the year like when there's snow and ice I up the dog's food to help maintain condition and the non compatition dogs are starting too look a bit sleek just now so they are cut down a bit but irrespective of what I have emptied into the feed bin my dogs get a litre of dry food (before wetting) per day. I buy six bags at a time, three go into each bin and that lasts a fortnight. Granted when your're feeding seven dogs a handlful of food here or there is pretty meaningless but the proof of the pudding is on the hill and the one thing my dogs don't lack is drive and stamina.


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## Nev

Good list of stuff there. I use Symply  and have found it to be the best for my puppy. His coat has now gone from dullish to really glossy and he's thriving on it.


----------



## kidsmum

Hi, I have spent the last couple of days reading through the thread and have a couple of questions if anyone could help.

I will be getting my first dog (a cocker spaniel) in about 5 weeks, when she will be 8 weeks old, I know from the breeder that she will have been started off on Bakers Complete Puppy. Having come across a few things about how the food you feed can affect your dog, i then stumbled across this site and I am now even more sure that I should change this food as soon as i can, so the first thing can anyone recommend what to try first? I have received some samples from Bob & Lush which looks quite good and i have also found Fish 4 Dogs. I think I want to stick to dry food, but then having read through the thread i am confused on a couple of things.

Somebody has mentioned about rosemary being used and that it is linked with seizures? I also saw mentioned (if i have understood the comments correctly) that some of these can be very high in protein and that can be a problem?

Im sure i have more questions but if anyone could offer some help with that for now, then i can post them after!

Many thanks


----------



## SixStar

kidsmum said:


> Hi, I have spent the last couple of days reading through the thread and have a couple of questions if anyone could help.
> 
> I will be getting my first dog (a cocker spaniel) in about 5 weeks, when she will be 8 weeks old, I know from the breeder that she will have been started off on Bakers Complete Puppy. Having come across a few things about how the food you feed can affect your dog, i then stumbled across this site and I am now even more sure that I should change this food as soon as i can, so the first thing can anyone recommend what to try first? I have received some samples from Bob & Lush which looks quite good and i have also found Fish 4 Dogs. I think I want to stick to dry food, but then having read through the thread i am confused on a couple of things.
> 
> Somebody has mentioned about rosemary being used and that it is linked with seizures? I also saw mentioned (if i have understood the comments correctly) that some of these can be very high in protein and that can be a problem?
> 
> Im sure i have more questions but if anyone could offer some help with that for now, then i can post them after!
> 
> Many thanks


Hi, welcome to the forum.

You're right in wanting to get your new pup off the Bakers ASAP (infact I wouldn't even consider buying from a breeder that weans onto Bakers, but that's another topic...)

Bob & Lush and Fish4Dogs are both excellent quality feeds, I'd be happy to feed either - they're both hypoallergenic, grain free and have a high meat/fish content. Both are great companies too, with excellent customer service, which is always a nice bonus.

Rosemary extract is used in alot of foods to naturally preserve and some research suggests it can trigger seizures in a small number of dogs - it's not something I know alot about personally - if it's something that concerns you, PM member 'vicki b' on here - I know she's done alot of research into the subject since her dog starting suffering from seizures.

It's not the * quantity* of protein that can be problematic, it's the *quality* - high quality meat based protein is fine (my dogs eat a raw meat diet, which is extremely high protein - much more than any dry feed), but you want to avoid low grade protein that comes from cereals.

Any more questions, please fire away


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## Yomper

Your better off starting your own thread about choosing what food and your quite correct that sometimes to high a protein can have detrimental effects such as diarrhea. i cant recall anything about rosemary but a google search will show up anything. I would also say that a lot of things people say on some websites are not true so don't take everything as correct if its on some website do other research BUT saying that there are many knowledgeable people on here who do know there stuff! Just double check anything before you do it  oh and welcome to the forum and we would love a pic of your dog


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## kidsmum

Hi
Thanks for your help so far, with regard to the food the breeder is starting the pups off on, whilst I appreciate it isnt great, i have only realised that because completely by accident i came across a page that seemed to imply that and i have then done more research, but otherwise I would have just assumed, probably like a lot of people that all food was pretty much the same and i would have continued with the food they started on. However I have now entered the complete minefield that seems to be the varieties of dog food and I feel like my brain might explode!

The same with the Rosemary, it's not particularly a concern i just noticed someone raised the issue so thought i would ask. So more questions! I have seen a couple of people that say not to change the puppies food for a few days after bringing her home to give her time to adjust to her new environment, does that sound right? How long should it then take before she is switched completely to the new food?

Presumably I should buy the smallest bag of new food that i can get and see how she gets on with it? Looking at the Bob & Lush website the smallest bag i can get is 7.5kg which is £39.99, although i have a leaflet that says they do a 3kg box but i cant see it, however the fish 4 dogs do a 1.5 kg box for £10.00, would that be reasonable to get and see how she got on with it?

Sorry again for all the questions, i have tried to do lots of research but sometimes the more you look the more different answers you get and it just becomes confusing!

If i can figure out how to do it, i will post a picture when we get her, we are going a week tomorrow to pick her, exciting times!!

:biggrin:


----------



## SixStar

kidsmum said:


> Hi
> Thanks for your help so far, with regard to the food the breeder is starting the pups off on, whilst I appreciate it isnt great, i have only realised that because completely by accident i came across a page that seemed to imply that and i have then done more research, but otherwise I would have just assumed, probably like a lot of people that all food was pretty much the same and i would have continued with the food they started on. However I have now entered the complete minefield that seems to be the varieties of dog food and I feel like my brain might explode!
> 
> The same with the Rosemary, it's not particularly a concern i just noticed someone raised the issue so thought i would ask. So more questions! I have seen a couple of people that say not to change the puppies food for a few days after bringing her home to give her time to adjust to her new environment, does that sound right? How long should it then take before she is switched completely to the new food?
> 
> Presumably I should buy the smallest bag of new food that i can get and see how she gets on with it? Looking at the Bob & Lush website the smallest bag i can get is 7.5kg which is £39.99, although i have a leaflet that says they do a 3kg box but i cant see it, however the fish 4 dogs do a 1.5 kg box for £10.00, would that be reasonable to get and see how she got on with it?
> 
> Sorry again for all the questions, i have tried to do lots of research but sometimes the more you look the more different answers you get and it just becomes confusing!
> 
> If i can figure out how to do it, i will post a picture when we get her, we are going a week tomorrow to pick her, exciting times!!
> 
> :biggrin:


I would keep her on the food she's currently on (even if it is Bakers) for about a week after coming home - there is so much upheaval and stress for a pup in the first few days without a change of food and a possible upset stomach to contend with too, then at the end of the first week you can slowly start adding in the new food.

Yes, just buy a small packet to start off with 

Bob & Lush definitely used to do a small bag of kibble - I have a pack of it here, but it doesn't seem to be on the website now 

The 1.5 kg packs of Fish4Dogs kibble are cheaper here than direct from their website - Fish4Dogs Finest Complete Salmon Dry Dog Food - From £7.78

Remember that you do not need puppy food - it's nothing but a gimmick - adult food is just fine


----------



## kidsmum

Thank you again, i really appreciate your help, i think i may try the fish 4 dogs and see how we get on with that, there also seems to be quite a few stockists fairly local to me so I can also check out how much it is there and compare that to online.

Just out of interest, is the puppy food not smaller than adult food? I dont understand why they also do puppy food if its not necessary to give it to them, it just makes me even more confused!! I did notice that the puppy varieties seem to be more expensive than adult versions!


----------



## SixStar

kidsmum said:


> Thank you again, i really appreciate your help, i think i may try the fish 4 dogs and see how we get on with that, there also seems to be quite a few stockists fairly local to me so I can also check out how much it is there and compare that to online.
> 
> Just out of interest, is the puppy food not smaller than adult food? *I dont understand why they also do puppy food if its not necessary to give it to them*, it just makes me even more confused!! *I did notice that the puppy varieties seem to be more expensive than adult versions!*


You've answered your own question there  - only real difference is the price, and the writing on the bag. I firmly believe it's just a ploy to make money - my pups eat no differently at all to my adult dogs, and never have done 

Yes, the kibbles are normally smaller in puppy food, but pups have teeth  I'd expect any breed of pup (except toys maybe) to be able to manage adult kibble just fine.


----------



## Yomper

I disagree about puppy food being no different. puppy food often has a higher calorie/protein/fat and other nutrient content. as it is only for the first year or so i would give puppy food. Not all puppy food costs more than adult food and when it does its only 50p difference


----------



## SixStar

Yomper said:


> I disagree about puppy food being no different. puppy food often has a higher calorie/protein/fat and other nutrient content. as it is only for the first year or so i would give puppy food. Not all puppy food costs more than adult food and when it does its only 50p difference


I just see no need for it whatsoever - it's a new concept, fifteen years ago there were no puppy foods, and pups did just fine - they ate the same as adult dogs, just a bit more, and there were no senior foods either - the oldies just got a bit less  Similarly, my raw fed puppies eat no differently to my adults, and they thrive. Each to their own though of course


----------



## Yomper

I agree with both ways but you can say 15 yrs ago or 30 yrs ago most things were done differently 25 yrs ago i used to feed my dog pedigree chum thinking i was giving her good food but if i only knew then what i know now i would have wrote to pedigree chum and told them their a bunch of erm you know whats! but the more we learn about things such as dog food then they can be changed for the better and they have been in a lot of cases and i think puppy food is a way forward. although in some cases such as bakers there in it for the money and not the dogs health.

although as you feed raw i won't knock that as thats what i want to move into soon


----------



## kidsmum

Do you have an opinion on which may be better to start off with out of Fish 4 dogs and Applaws? I believe they were both green on the list, but wondered if 1 may be better than the other as they both seem to do smaller bags to start off with. The Applaws seems to have a very high meat content, which i presume is good?

Also if i wanted to also feed wet food along with the kibble, would i do that in a similar way, i.e introduce it gradually and then increase it, or should i swap over her dry food before i attempt to introduce a wet food as well?

Thanks again:biggrin:


----------



## SixStar

kidsmum said:


> Do you have an opinion on which may be better to start off with out of Fish 4 dogs and Applaws? I believe they were both green on the list, but wondered if 1 may be better than the other as they both seem to do smaller bags to start off with. The Applaws seems to have a very high meat content, which i presume is good?
> 
> Also if i wanted to also feed wet food along with the kibble, would i do that in a similar way, i.e introduce it gradually and then increase it, or should i swap over her dry food before i attempt to introduce a wet food as well?
> 
> Thanks again:biggrin:


I think both are as good as each other to be honest, they're both excellent quality kibbles. Although Applaws does have a bit more meat in, so I suppose that gives it the edge over Fish4Dogs if I really had to choose!

If you wanted to feed wet food too then I'd get her fully established on the new dry food, and then slowly introduce small amounts of wet food in - remember to reduce the RDA of the kibble though! There's http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/194976-wet-dog-food-index.html too if that's any use to you, not sure if you'd seen it


----------



## kidsmum

Thanks for that, I will have a think before choosing between the 2, I still have a bit of time!

One last question for now, there seems to be quite a difference between the daily feeding amounts on these web sites, how do I know which amount to go for?

Thanks


----------



## SixStar

kidsmum said:


> Thanks for that, I will have a think before choosing between the 2, I still have a bit of time!
> 
> One last question for now, there seems to be quite a difference between the daily feeding amounts on these web sites, how do I know which amount to go for?
> 
> Thanks


Whatever food you choose will have the recommended daily feeding amount printed on the packaging, just follow that


----------



## Yomper

Hi
After looking at your list applaws chicken looks a mid range product as it has poor ingredients in 6 of the first 10 ingredients wouldn't you agree? the rest of your list is pretty much accurate.
Taste of the wild (high prairie) and ACANA and ORIJEN (six fish) are definitely the best 3 on your list BUT saying that to high a protein in some dogs with health problems can cause more problems.
i would much rather have fish4dogs than applaws as i have tried fish4dogs as it is a decent kibble but my dog just didn't like the fish 
i would also moisten the kibble before feeding as kibble can dehydrate a dog


----------



## SixStar

Yomper said:


> Hi
> After looking at your list applaws chicken looks a mid range product as it has poor ingredients in 6 of the first 10 ingredients wouldn't you agree? the rest of your list is pretty much accurate.
> Taste of the wild (high prairie) and ACANA and ORIJEN (six fish) are definitely the best 3 on your list BUT saying that to high a protein in some dogs with health problems can cause more problems.
> i would much rather have fish4dogs than applaws as i have tried fish4dogs as it is a decent kibble but my dog just didn't like the fish
> i would also moisten the kibble before feeding as kibble can dehydrate a dog


What are the six poor ingredients you are talking about?

Here's the first ten...



> Dry chicken meat, dry potato, poultry oil, fresh chicken, poultry gravy, salmon oil, beet pulp, dry whole eggs, cellulose plant fibre, brewers dried yeast,


One's in red aren't fantastic, I admit. Which are the other three you do not like?

At the end of the day, the Index is only my opinion - and Applaws with it's high meat content, no grain and no artificial junk or additives - makes it a 'green' for me. But of course, we'll never all agree 

It is not the *quantity *of the protein that can cause problems, but the *quality.*


----------



## Goblin

Yomper said:


> Taste of the wild (high prairie) and ACANA and ORIJEN (six fish) are definitely the best 3 on your list BUT saying that to high a protein in some dogs with health problems can cause more problems.


Can you expand on that including sources of information? I know of no problems. Even the idea of low protein for kidney problems has been shown to be incorrect for dogs in more recent studies. What does % actually mean in the first place? In raw meat the percentage is only around 22-28% but 70% is water. I know a lot of people say high% is bad but I haven't been able to find anyone who is able to say why and give reasonable arguments. Some dogs don't seem to be able to cope but is that % or is that simply the food? Some dogs can't handle some food, whereas others can and that goes for high as well as low protein.


----------



## Yomper

Dry chicken meat, dry potato, poultry oil, fresh chicken, poultry gravy, salmon oil, beet pulp, dry whole eggs, cellulose plant fibre, brewers dried yeast

anything that doesn't specify what meat it is can be anything and poultry has such a wide meaning and it doesn't always mean chickenand can be any part of the poultry source ie entrails or the head so for me the quality goes out of the window. dry potato as the second ingredient ok not really bad but why dry potato and not brown rice and why 2nd on the list? ok i am being picky on the potato one but hey i am picky!! cellulose plant fibre, brewers dried yeast and beet pulp speak for themselves they don't belong in any food let alone dog food but yes most dog foods do have a few of these in even the top ones but i didn't realise applaws have so many in top 10 ingredients. i am only saying its a mid range food i am not saying its a bad food

Goblin I stand corrected on my to much protein for dogs causing health problems as i was led to believe the myth but i am still unsure if it does cause hyper activity and possibly smelly or waxy ears as well a the runs. as once we changed to a lower protein our dog seems to have lost his smelly waxy ears and seems calmer throughout the day


----------



## SueBoo

Yomper said:


> Dry chicken meat, dry potato, poultry oil, fresh chicken, poultry gravy, salmon oil, beet pulp, dry whole eggs, cellulose plant fibre, brewers dried yeast
> 
> anything that doesn't specify what meat it is can be anything and poultry has such a wide meaning and it doesn't always mean chickenand can be any part of the poultry source ie entrails or the head so for me the quality goes out of the window. dry potato as the second ingredient ok not really bad but why dry potato and not brown rice and why 2nd on the list? ok i am being picky on the potato one but hey i am picky!! cellulose plant fibre, brewers dried yeast and beet pulp speak for themselves they don't belong in any food let alone dog food but yes most dog foods do have a few of these in even the top ones but i didn't realise applaws have so many in top 10 ingredients. i am only saying its a mid range food i am not saying its a bad food
> 
> Goblin I stand corrected on my to much protein for dogs causing health problems as i was led to believe the myth but i am still unsure if it does cause hyper activity and possibly smelly or waxy ears as well a the runs. as once we changed to a lower protein our dog seems to have lost his smelly waxy ears and seems calmer throughout the day


From my knowledge of labelling requirements you would not be able to write chicken meat if it wasn't actual muscle fibre from the chicken, i.e. breast, thigh, leg, wing, back etc. If you are talking about bones, feather etc that would have to be down as meat meal or derivatives as far as I am aware.


----------



## Yomper

SueBoo said:


> From my knowledge of labelling requirements you would not be able to write chicken meat if it wasn't actual muscle fibre from the chicken, i.e. breast, thigh, leg, wing, back etc. If you are talking about bones, feather etc that would have to be down as meat meal or derivatives as far as I am aware.


Not sure what you mean as its only the ingredients i highlighted in red that i say are bad i never said chicken meat was bad. Poultry on the other hand can mean anything


----------



## soulful dog

Yomper there's no way Applaws is only a mid range product, it's clearly far better than things like Arden Grange, Barking Heads, Skinners etc that are decent enough but not grain free and have far less meat content. It's probably fair to say that TotW, Orijen and Acana are all very high quality whereas Applaws and Fish4Dogs are just very good quality, but that's about it.

You also say you'd prefer to feed Fish4Dogs instead of Applaws, but really they share some similar ingredients of those you highlight in red (including the use of potato instead of rice?!), so it's really just the fact that it states poultry oil & poultry gravy instead of chicken gravy that's of any concern, and that just seems incredibly picky.


----------



## Redice

I agree with Soulful dog. I like Applaws and think it is a high quality food and on the next rung down from ToTW etc. Have a look at this website Which Dog Food.co.uk Applaws is rated as excellent and scores 4.5 out of 5. Fish4dogs is rated as Good and scores 3.9 out of 5. I guess there are lots of different opinions on ingredients in dog food and not everyone will agree.


----------



## Coco pop

Hi. 

I have got a 9 week old puppy woman I got her off was giving her bakers puppy complete. I a
Very interested in feeding her the correct food that will be better for her that I can afford to buy aswell. I have spoken to my bet and they r suggesting canin royal food yet this is a red food. How is itif you are not a pet Nutrition you know what foods are good and bad of you don't mind me asking. 

I really want to buy the right food for my new puppy for her to have the best in life. She is a small breed. A westie cross with bichon frise. Know as a wee chon. 

Thanks again. 
Colette


----------



## SixStar

Coco pop said:


> Hi.
> 
> I have got a 9 week old puppy woman I got her off was giving her bakers puppy complete. I a
> Very interested in feeding her the correct food that will be better for her that I can afford to buy aswell. I have spoken to my bet and they r suggesting canin royal food yet this is a red food. How is itif you are not a pet Nutrition you know what foods are good and bad of you don't mind me asking.
> 
> I really want to buy the right food for my new puppy for her to have the best in life. She is a small breed. A westie cross with bichon frise. Know as a wee chon.
> 
> Thanks again.
> Colette


Because I look at the ingredients - the ingredients of Royal Canin tell me it's complete trash - cereals, cereals, more cereals, a little bit of meat and some cariogenic (cancer causing) additives - nice!! Do remember vets aren't nutritionists either, and that they are sponsored to sell Royal Canin  Any of the green listed foods would be a good diet for her. A weechon? Dear lord!


----------



## Coco pop

Six star. Thanks so much for your reply much appreciated. 

I totally agree on Your comments on royal canin and have decided againste getting her that. 

I was thinking of trying her on the James wellbeloved puppy food or applaws puppy food. Will read more into it and welcome as much advice as possible from everyone. 

Thanks again. 
Colette

Wee chon is just a nickname given to the cross bread


----------



## classy

I don't think dry dog food is healthy. Besides, many pet owners complain about dry pet food (Animal Feed). I think homemade food is the best choice for a pet


----------



## Coco pop

Sorry I should have said I am new to this forum. 
After reading this forum. I have decided to go with either one of these.

Orijen vs Acana vs Applaws!

Sixstar what is your opinions.

Also for treats and training what is good and what is bad?

Thanks again


----------



## Shutterbug

I have been reading through the forums as we got our first puppy! The information on this site is fab and thanks six star for this thread of fab info!

Currently she is on Jollyes life stage puppy/junior, this is what she was weaned on but poos soft and seems to be scratching I feel a bit too much. She is a miniature schnauzer 9 weeks old.


Chicken meat meal (min 36%)
corn (min 20%)
rice
barley
chicken oil
sugar beet pulp
brewers yeasts
whole egg
fishmeat
whole linseed (min 4%)
chicory
salmon oil
vitamins
minerals
DL methionine
rosemary

" has been formulated by nutritionists to provide the optimal levels of carbohydrates, proteins, vitamins and minerals in every nutritious and tasty kibble. It also contains the oligosaccharide FOS from a natural source of chicory to help promote a healthy gut and aid digestion."

Also:
Gluten-free
No artificial colours, flavours or preservatives
100% natural ingredients
Omega-3 oils from salmon and linseed
Additional plant extracts and vitamins providing an antioxidant boost
Prebiotic fibres provided in all foods


This is all the info i can find online and if I remember right it's about £6.50 for 2kg. How does this one weight up Sixstar?

We have been looking at Bob & Lush, Acana & Orijen to switch to though. I think We will try Bob & Lush first but I can't get my head around their feeding RDA table?

Thanks a lot!


----------



## Lyceum

Yomper said:


> Dry chicken meat, dry potato, poultry oil, fresh chicken, poultry gravy, salmon oil, beet pulp, dry whole eggs, cellulose plant fibre, brewers dried yeast
> 
> anything that doesn't specify what meat it is can be anything and poultry has such a wide meaning and it doesn't always mean chickenand can be any part of the poultry source ie entrails or the head so for me the quality goes out of the window. *dry potato as the second ingredient ok not really bad but why dry potato and not brown rice and why 2nd on the list?* ok i am being picky on the potato one but hey i am picky!! cellulose plant fibre, brewers dried yeast and beet pulp speak for themselves they don't belong in any food let alone dog food but yes most dog foods do have a few of these in even the top ones but i didn't realise applaws have so many in top 10 ingredients. i am only saying its a mid range food i am not saying its a bad food
> 
> Goblin I stand corrected on my to much protein for dogs causing health problems as i was led to believe the myth but i am still unsure if it does cause hyper activity and possibly smelly or waxy ears as well a the runs. as once we changed to a lower protein our dog seems to have lost his smelly waxy ears and seems calmer throughout the day


Why potato? Because it's easier to digest than rice for dogs and second on the list because it's the second biggest ingredient, like all ingredients list, more of it, higher on the list.

Fist ingredient in fish4dogs is fresh fish, so the over all fish content after moisture removal is much less than the stated amount on their website.

Fish 4 dogs salmon ingredients

*Salmon 30.5%, Potato 30.5%, Herring Meal 21.4%, Salmon Oil 7.6%, Beet Fibre 6.4%, Brewers Yeast 2.1%, Minerals 0.8%, Vitamins 0.7%*

Once the moisture is removed you only have around 30% fish content in the finished product.

So is fish4dogs a mid range food too now?


----------



## SixStar

Shutterbug said:


> I have been reading through the forums as we got our first puppy! The information on this site is fab and thanks six star for this thread of fab info!
> 
> Currently she is on Jollyes life stage puppy/junior, this is what she was weaned on but poos soft and seems to be scratching I feel a bit too much. She is a miniature schnauzer 9 weeks old.
> 
> Chicken meat meal (min 36%)
> corn (min 20%)
> rice
> barley
> chicken oil
> sugar beet pulp
> brewers yeasts
> whole egg
> fishmeat
> whole linseed (min 4%)
> chicory
> salmon oil
> vitamins
> minerals
> DL methionine
> rosemary
> 
> " has been formulated by nutritionists to provide the optimal levels of carbohydrates, proteins, vitamins and minerals in every nutritious and tasty kibble. It also contains the oligosaccharide FOS from a natural source of chicory to help promote a healthy gut and aid digestion."
> 
> Also:
> Gluten-free
> No artificial colours, flavours or preservatives
> 100% natural ingredients
> Omega-3 oils from salmon and linseed
> Additional plant extracts and vitamins providing an antioxidant boost
> Prebiotic fibres provided in all foods
> 
> This is all the info i can find online and if I remember right it's about £6.50 for 2kg. How does this one weight up Sixstar?
> 
> We have been looking at Bob & Lush, Acana & Orijen to switch to though. I think We will try Bob & Lush first but I can't get my head around their feeding RDA table?
> 
> Thanks a lot!


Hi Shutterbug (your username makes me smile, love it!) - glad the Index has been of use to you 

The Jollyes food is very poor to be honest - the meat content is quite reasonable, but there's lots of grains and cheap fillers in there. It's not the worst food available, but I'd definitely avoid if possible.

Acana, Orijen and Bob & Lush are all fantastic foods, you wouldn't go far wrong with any of them. There is an interactive feeding guide on the Bob & Lush website - but it's a bit confusing because it's based of amount fed per MEAL, rather than per DAY - so just double the amounts shown 

Bob & Lush


----------



## Coco pop

Hi,

sixtstar: my post didnt post the other day.

spoken to my vet today she has said she has never heard of applaws dog food which was what I was going to go with.

heard good things about the james well beloved food so im thinking of trying that, that food is in the middle being an orange code

what dog treats are good to use by the way?

check out my photos of the puppy.


----------



## Shutterbug

Thanks a lot Sixstar! I thought as much about the Jollyes, we will get her switched over the next few weeks to the new one.

Bob & Lush is going to work out v expensive due to the postage to NI unfortunately. I can't find anywhere else to buy it from apart from direct from them?

Will have a look at Acana and Orijen and see which works out the best price for us. Other one was Applaws but not sure, it's a hard decision to try and get the right food for her.

Thanks again!


----------



## Coco pop

Sixstar:

what about this:

Advanced Nutrition Puppy Food with Chicken 1kg and 2.5kg | Pets at Home

or this one was in ur average range:

James Wellbeloved Complete Puppy Food with Turkey and Rice 2kg, 7.5kg and 15kg | Pets at Home

finiding it very hard to make a decision!


----------



## Mum2Heidi

Hi,

I had a good look into kibble, trying to find one that my dog could get along with. The difference I noticed between Acana/Orijen and Applaws was that Applaws uses dried herbs etc whereas the others use fresh. When you think everything is dried anyway, it didnt seem too much to worry about. Good to use a UK company too.

The other one that may be worth a look is Taste of the Wild, thats a bit cheaper 

My dog loved Bob and Lush, prob as much as Acana but for me, it's a bit overpriced.

Hope you find something that works well. I gave up with kibble and use wet food.


----------



## Beardie Lover

SixStar said:


> I just see no need for it whatsoever - it's a new concept, fifteen years ago there were no puppy foods, and pups did just fine - they ate the same as adult dogs, just a bit more, *and there were no senior foods either - the oldies just got a bit less ;*)
> 
> Each to their own though of course


Hi, I'm a new member on here, as of today.

I've just read through this whole thread, which has been really informative and helpful. Many thanks to you, SixStar, and to the other knowledgeable contributors on this site.

As you can see from the part of the quoted post that I've highlighted, my question is about food labelled 'senior'.

Our Beardie will be 11 years old on Saturday. I regret to say that through complete ignorance, we fed her on Baker's Complete until September 2011. It was purely by accident one evening as I surfed the web looking for Bakers at cheaper prices that I stumbled on a site that revealed this product for what it really was.

Utterly horrified, I did some quick research and changed our dog over to White's Premium. The change in her was remarkable. Within a month we had visible evidence of much reduced stiffness in her joints; greater agility and liveliness; she even lost a couple of kilos.

I'm now evangelical on the subject of decent dog food - and very angry at companies like Purina (Nestle) who sell this rubbish to dog owners at considerable profit margins, using their brand image to trick us into believing we're feeding our dogs a quality product. :mad2: (_and breathe_)

Anyway, having made the transition to White's, all was good.

But now White's Premium is no more! What happened to them? So I'm on the search for another new dry food for her and have generated a short-list from my trawl through this thread.

And so to the question!  Should I bother seeking out dog foods marked as 'Senior' for my 11 year old pooch? For example, surely foods marked for 'working dogs' would be too rich a diet at her time of life?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## SixStar

Beardie Lover said:


> Hi, I'm a new member on here, as of today.
> 
> I've just read through this whole thread, which has been really informative and helpful. Many thanks to you, SixStar, and to the other knowledgeable contributors on this site.
> 
> As you can see from the part of the quoted post that I've highlighted, my question is about food labelled 'senior'.
> 
> Our Beardie will be 11 years old on Saturday. I regret to say that through complete ignorance, we fed her on Baker's Complete until September 2011. It was purely by accident one evening as I surfed the web looking for Bakers at cheaper prices that I stumbled on a site that revealed this product for what it really was.
> 
> Utterly horrified, I did some quick research and changed our dog over to White's Premium. The change in her was remarkable. Within a month we had visible evidence of much reduced stiffness in her joints; greater agility and liveliness; she even lost a couple of kilos.
> 
> I'm now evangelical on the subject of decent dog food - and very angry at companies like Purina (Nestle) who sell this rubbish to dog owners at considerable profit margins, using their brand image to trick us into believing we're feeding our dogs a quality product. :mad2: (_and breathe_)
> 
> Anyway, having made the transition to White's, all was good.
> 
> But now White's Premium is no more! What happened to them? So I'm on the search for another new dry food for her and have generated a short-list from my trawl through this thread.
> 
> And so to the question!  Should I bother seeking out dog foods marked as 'Senior' for my 11 year old pooch? For example, surely foods marked for 'working dogs' would be too rich a diet at her time of life?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Hi Beardie Lover! I adore beardies - my nan always had them when I was growing up! 

I'm glad you found the Index useful, and that you made the move from Bakers! :thumbup:

Personally, no, I wouldn't bother at all with a senior diet. The only difference between them, and adult foods, are that they are often a little lower in fat (you can just feed less if this is an issue) and that they normally have glucosamine to them - and again, if this is an issue, you can just add your own joint care supplements that you can tailor specifically to your dogs needs. I've got three seniors here - two eight year olds and a nine year old - and they do just fine on the same diet as my younger dogs 

Working dog foods are very often exactly the same product as regular dog foods - they are just sold as for working dogs so they can be VAT free!


----------



## SixStar

Coco pop said:


> Hi,
> 
> sixtstar: my post didnt post the other day.
> 
> spoken to my vet today she has said she has never heard of applaws dog food which was what I was going to go with.
> 
> heard good things about the james well beloved food so im thinking of trying that, that food is in the middle being an orange code
> 
> what dog treats are good to use by the way?
> 
> check out my photos of the puppy.





Coco pop said:


> Sixstar:
> 
> what about this:
> 
> Advanced Nutrition Puppy Food with Chicken 1kg and 2.5kg | Pets at Home
> 
> or this one was in ur average range:
> 
> James Wellbeloved Complete Puppy Food with Turkey and Rice 2kg, 7.5kg and 15kg | Pets at Home
> 
> finiding it very hard to make a decision!


Don't be put off Applaws just because your vet hasn't heard of it! Most vets don't have much knowledge of nutrition and brands besides Royal Canin and Hills, so I really wouldn't let that worry you.

James Wellbeloved is a good middle of the range food - lots of grain (unless you opt for the ''with veg'' varieties over the ''with rice'' options), but a great company and a good natural food - however Applaws is excellent, it's a head and shoulders above JWB.

I wouldn't consider the Pets At Home Advanced Nutrition, it's not very good at all - it has lots of maize in, as well as rice, and the chicken content is listed fresh rather than meal, which means after it's been dehydrated (as it must for use in dry food) then actual meat content in the food will be much less than the 23% stated.

What kind of treats are you after?



Shutterbug said:


> Thanks a lot Sixstar! I thought as much about the Jollyes, we will get her switched over the next few weeks to the new one.
> 
> Bob & Lush is going to work out v expensive due to the postage to NI unfortunately. I can't find anywhere else to buy it from apart from direct from them?
> 
> Will have a look at Acana and Orijen and see which works out the best price for us. Other one was Applaws but not sure, it's a hard decision to try and get the right food for her.
> 
> Thanks again!


Yes, it's a pain that Bob & Lush only appears to be available from their own website at the moment. Hopefully as their popularity grows, so will their stockists!

You won't go far wrong with Acana, Orijen or Applaws - all fab! :thumbup:


----------



## Shutterbug

Thanks a lot Sixstar! It's down to Applaws or Acana, just working out which is more affordable and available with free P&P to NI. Researching dog food has taken over my life the last week! :lol: so glad I stumbled across this thread though, it's been an eye opener!


----------



## Bea

What about this one Sixstar? good bad or ugly!

Symply Adult Lamb & Rice Ingredients:
Dried lamb (min. 28%), White Rice (min.26%), Rice Bran, Rice Flour, Sunflower Oil (min. 9%), Beet Pulp, Dried Egg, Seaweed

Typical Analsis:
Protein 22%
Fat/oil 12%
Fibre 5%
Linoleic acid (omega 6) 5.7% 
Ash 10%


Manufacturers description:
Our carefully selected ingredients have been expertly combined to give you peace of mind in the knowledge that you are feeding the best to enhance and maintain your dog's skin and coat condition. Our natural, complete dry food avoids the ingredients commonly known to cause skin problems such as wheat and corn. Generous levels of sunflower oil, containing Omega 6, improve your dogs skin and coat condition, while optimum zinc levels help the skin to repair itself. Our delicious meadow-raised lamb is sourced from Great Britian, bringing you the finest ingredients from a source you can trust


----------



## SixStar

Bea said:


> What about this one Sixstar? good bad or ugly!
> 
> Symply Adult Lamb & Rice Ingredients:
> Dried lamb (min. 28%), White Rice (min.26%), Rice Bran, Rice Flour, Sunflower Oil (min. 9%), Beet Pulp, Dried Egg, Seaweed
> 
> Typical Analsis:
> Protein 22%
> Fat/oil 12%
> Fibre 5%
> Linoleic acid (omega 6) 5.7%
> Ash 10%
> 
> Manufacturers description:
> Our carefully selected ingredients have been expertly combined to give you peace of mind in the knowledge that you are feeding the best to enhance and maintain your dog's skin and coat condition. Our natural, complete dry food avoids the ingredients commonly known to cause skin problems such as wheat and corn. Generous levels of sunflower oil, containing Omega 6, improve your dogs skin and coat condition, while optimum zinc levels help the skin to repair itself. Our delicious meadow-raised lamb is sourced from Great Britian, bringing you the finest ingredients from a source you can trust


* SYMPLY (lamb & rice)*

*Price (12kg): *£42.99
*Suggested daily amount: *200g
*Daily feeding cost:* 71p

*Ingredients: *Dried lamb (min 28%), white rice (min 26%), rice bran, rice flour, sunflower oil (min 9%), beet pulp, dried egg, seaweed


A very middle of the road food with lots of rice which is very expensive for what it is - you could feed grain free high meat content Applaws or Taste of the Wild for cheaper!


----------



## Goblin

Bea said:


> Dried lamb (min. 28%), White Rice (min.26%), Rice Bran, Rice Flour, Sunflower Oil (min. 9%), Beet Pulp, Dried Egg, Seaweed


Will quickly point out an example of what IMO is deliberately attempting to mislead in this ingredient list. We should all know amounts determine where in the list ingredients go, with the highest % ingredient first. So for this it appears meat is the greatest quantity. However you have several rice "products" in this list. Whilst this is perfectly legal what's the betting that add that rice together and it's far higher a % than the meat? Doesn't look so attractive then.

This practice is quite common in ingredients lists.


----------



## Bea

My parents lost their first mini schnauzer to cancer a 5, their 2nd to Kidney failure at 8.

My mum now realises/thinks that the rubbish food my dad bought (bakers/hi life/sainsburys own/pedigree etc, didnt help and in her mind could have been a cause to loosing both their dogs a a youngish age.

My mum has been researching dry/wet foods and I printed out the dry and wet food indexes from here for her to read.

She researched and found somewhere (she cant remember now which site) that the Symply brand was the best hence my asking on here. I read myself that it has a very high rice content. 

My dad is a real stickler for change, the amount of times I have asked him not to buy his wormers and flea stuff from the supermarket hopefully my mum can persuade him to buy a better quality food for their new dog in the future.

Now they have to agree on which to get, dad wants a standard and mum wants another mini!!!! I will be incharge of researching a suitable pup this time, the last two were from puppy farms of some type


----------



## stusam85

Hi,
I live in rural Spain and have been trying to find the best of a bad lot when it comes to dry food for my Belgian Shepherd. He is a rescue who needs to lose weight (he has a severely arthritic shoulder which is aggravated by having a limp due to a considerable amount of shot gun pellet in his other front leg). I have been trying to find a readily available food that has meat as the first ingredient on the ingredients list, but have so far been unsuccessful (going to the vets and investing a fortune in Hills or Science plan unfortunately isn't an option for us - I'm not even sure if they are any good!) 

This is the ingredients list of a lite/senior food that I've found and I was wondering what other people think (I'm starting to get a bit overwhelmed with it all now!!  ) I've translated it as best as I can!

Ingredients : Cereals (10% barley, 4% rice); Meat & animal subproducts (20% chicken); vegetable subproducts (4% beet pulp); oils & fats (2% poultry fat, 0.3% fish oil); vegetable protein extract; mineral substances; flour??(source of lutein 16mg/kg); yeast?? (500mg/kg)
Analysis : Protein 26%; Fat 9%; Crude fibre 3.4%; Inorganic material 7.5%; Moisture 10%

I look forward to hearing what you think. Apart from this one I do have Brekkies dry food as an option but that seems to have less meat in it so I'm guessing it's worse! I have been feeding less than the recommended amount of a regular adult food to try and get some weight off him, and he has lost about 7kg but his coat had lost some of it's shine, which is why I'm thinking of changing his food.

Sorry for my ramblings ... I hope this makes sense!


----------



## SixStar

stusam85 said:


> Hi,
> I live in rural Spain and have been trying to find the best of a bad lot when it comes to dry food for my Belgian Shepherd. He is a rescue who needs to lose weight (he has a severely arthritic shoulder which is aggravated by having a limp due to a considerable amount of shot gun pellet in his other front leg). I have been trying to find a readily available food that has meat as the first ingredient on the ingredients list, but have so far been unsuccessful (going to the vets and investing a fortune in Hills or Science plan unfortunately isn't an option for us - I'm not even sure if they are any good!)
> 
> This is the ingredients list of a lite/senior food that I've found and I was wondering what other people think (I'm starting to get a bit overwhelmed with it all now!!  ) I've translated it as best as I can!
> 
> Ingredients : Cereals (10% barley, 4% rice); Meat & animal subproducts (20% chicken); vegetable subproducts (4% beet pulp); oils & fats (2% poultry fat, 0.3% fish oil); vegetable protein extract; mineral substances; flour??(source of lutein 16mg/kg); yeast?? (500mg/kg)
> Analysis : Protein 26%; Fat 9%; Crude fibre 3.4%; Inorganic material 7.5%; Moisture 10%
> 
> I look forward to hearing what you think. Apart from this one I do have Brekkies dry food as an option but that seems to have less meat in it so I'm guessing it's worse! I have been feeding less than the recommended amount of a regular adult food to try and get some weight off him, and he has lost about 7kg but his coat had lost some of it's shine, which is why I'm thinking of changing his food.
> 
> Sorry for my ramblings ... I hope this makes sense!


Put simply it's a terrible food, but what a tricky situation you're in!

Would raw be an option for you? Or even home cooking?

VetUK do ship to Spain but it's £14. How much is the food above that you're looking at? A bag of the best budget dry, Skinners duck & rice, would come to £35, delivery included - is that in your budget?


----------



## Carrie4192

Hi SixStar,

I need your advice please!

I am due to pick up our Bichon Frise puppy in 3 weeks and am very confused about which dry food to choose?

I already have a 3 year old Bichon male who up until today has been on Asda Hero food, but after reading this thread I will be changing it tomorrow after reading the ingredients list! Awful, awful stuff by the looks! Just didn't realise. 

Anyway, I want to put my new pup on a dry puppy food and my 3 year old on an adult puppy food at a reasonable price for both then eventually have them on the same food. My dog is about 6kg and the bitch pup is only about 600g at the moment.

I need to mention that my 3 year old has been having dry kibble mixed with a foil pack for lunch then just the foil pack for tea so need to decide on a wet food too for him (need to read the Wet Dog Food Index now!).

Is it better to just stick to dry food or doesn't it matter that I mix the two for one of his meals a day? I'm not sure what to do with the new pup after reading this. Thought I knew, lol.

At the moment the pup is being fed on Harrington's by the breeder and looking at the nutrition information on their website, it isn't very good so will be looking to change it when she comes home.

From reading this I have been looking at Wainwright's or James Wellbeloved?

Any advice and help will be much appreciated!

Thanks


PS Have just ordered a sample of fish4dogs for Frodo - fingers crossed he likes it and going to [email protected] tomorrow to get a few WW trays for him to try! Just need to sort the pup out now!


----------



## PetsPalace

Salters is an old brand which is a quality dog food. It is not on the list though.


----------



## PetsPalace

Salter's Premium Veterinary Formulated Complete Dry Dog food


----------



## Kinjilabs

Well Ive just put Bertie on Arden Grange fish and potato and he's doing great


----------



## Amy-manycats

OMG the price of Salters for the ingredients!:crazy::crazy:


----------



## stusam85

SixStar said:


> Put simply it's a terrible food, but what a tricky situation you're in!
> 
> Would raw be an option for you? Or even home cooking?
> 
> VetUK do ship to Spain but it's £14. How much is the food above that you're looking at? A bag of the best budget dry, Skinners duck & rice, would come to £35, delivery included - is that in your budget?


Thanks SixStar. That confirms what I thought! Raw and home cooking would be difficult for me as my husband has to feed Wolfie some evenings when I'm working (and I don't think he'll go with anything more complicated than measuring out dry food!) I've had a look at the Skinners and it sounds good ... especially as it has Glucosamine & Chondritin. (we were thinking of giving him these as a supplement to help his joints) I've actually managed to find it on Amazon too, it's a bit more expensive but I can get free delivery if my order is more than £25 so it works out cheaper! I've ordered a bag and I'm really looking forward to it being delivered - so I don't have to feed him rubbish any more!
Just out of interest is the Skinners Salmon & Rice the same / better / worse than the Duck & Rice? I'm thinking of the possibility of giving him some variation in the future ... or is it better to stick to one flavour?
Thanks again


----------



## soulful dog

Amy-manycats said:


> OMG the price of Salters for the ingredients!:crazy::crazy:


Yes it doesn't give any percentages but maize as the first ingredient (Ground Maize,Chicken Meat Meal, Round Grain Rice, Chicken, Chicken Fat, Maize Gluten Meal) and it's £45?!



stusam85 said:


> I've had a look at the Skinners and it sounds good ... especially as it has Glucosamine & Chondritin (we were thinking of giving him these as a supplement to help his joints).
> Just out of interest is the Skinners Salmon & Rice the same / better / worse than the Duck & Rice? I'm thinking of the possibility of giving him some variation in the future ... or is it better to stick to one flavour?


Of the three Field & Trial (Duck/Salmon/Turkey & Rice) although the first two state they have glucosamine, it's only the Turkey that includes 'Joint Aid' and lists glucosamine in the ingredients?

They all have pretty identical ingredients (just slightly different meat contents), so definitely worth buying different 'flavours' to give your dog some variety*:

Salmon: 
Whole rice (40%), salmon meal (17.5%), naked oats, peas, sunflower oil, whole linseed, beet pulp, vitamins and minerals.

Duck:
Whole rice (40%), duck meat meal (20%), naked oats, peas, whole linseed, sunflower oil, beet pulp, vitamins and minerals.

Turkey:
Whole rice (40%), turkey meat meal (21%), naked oats, peas, linseed, sunflower oil, beet pulp, vitamins, minerals and trace elements. 
Joint Aid supplement (2% comprising of glucosamine, chondroitin, collagen, MSM, glutamine, curcumin, oils & fats, beta glucans, oligosaccharides).

*My dog loves the Duck & Rice, but he got halfway through a bag of the Salmon & Rice and started emptying his bowl more slowly every time and then started leaving some of it - and for a lab to leave food in his bowl, that's saying something! So although some people prefer to feed fish based foods, I avoid them!


----------



## SixStar

Carrie4192 said:


> Hi SixStar,
> 
> I need your advice please!
> 
> I am due to pick up our Bichon Frise puppy in 3 weeks and am very confused about which dry food to choose?
> 
> I already have a 3 year old Bichon male who up until today has been on Asda Hero food, but after reading this thread I will be changing it tomorrow after reading the ingredients list! Awful, awful stuff by the looks! Just didn't realise.
> 
> Anyway, I want to put my new pup on a dry puppy food and my 3 year old on an adult puppy food at a reasonable price for both then eventually have them on the same food. My dog is about 6kg and the bitch pup is only about 600g at the moment.
> 
> I need to mention that my 3 year old has been having dry kibble mixed with a foil pack for lunch then just the foil pack for tea so need to decide on a wet food too for him (need to read the Wet Dog Food Index now!).
> 
> Is it better to just stick to dry food or doesn't it matter that I mix the two for one of his meals a day? I'm not sure what to do with the new pup after reading this. Thought I knew, lol.
> 
> At the moment the pup is being fed on Harrington's by the breeder and looking at the nutrition information on their website, it isn't very good so will be looking to change it when she comes home.
> 
> From reading this I have been looking at Wainwright's or James Wellbeloved?
> 
> Any advice and help will be much appreciated!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> PS Have just ordered a sample of fish4dogs for Frodo - fingers crossed he likes it and going to [email protected] tomorrow to get a few WW trays for him to try! Just need to sort the pup out now!


Hi Carrie, welcome to the forum!

I'm glad you've decided to change your dog over from Asda Hero  Any of the green listed foods would be a great choice for your little guy, and both your current dog and new puppy can be on the same food - puppies needn't have puppy food, adult food is just fine.

James Wellbeloved and Wainwrights are both good foods, but Fish4Dogs is brilliant, so I'd go with that personally.

There is no harm in mixing dry and wet food - it provides more variety and tends to be more palatable to the dog, and the wet food sneaks more moisture into them, so I'd certainly carry on with that. Again, you needn't buy separate adult and puppy wet foods, the same one will do them both.



stusam85 said:


> Thanks SixStar. That confirms what I thought! Raw and home cooking would be difficult for me as my husband has to feed Wolfie some evenings when I'm working (and I don't think he'll go with anything more complicated than measuring out dry food!) I've had a look at the Skinners and it sounds good ... especially as it has Glucosamine & Chondritin. (we were thinking of giving him these as a supplement to help his joints) I've actually managed to find it on Amazon too, it's a bit more expensive but I can get free delivery if my order is more than £25 so it works out cheaper! I've ordered a bag and I'm really looking forward to it being delivered - so I don't have to feed him rubbish any more!
> Just out of interest is the Skinners Salmon & Rice the same / better / worse than the Duck & Rice? I'm thinking of the possibility of giving him some variation in the future ... or is it better to stick to one flavour?
> Thanks again


I'm glad you've managed to find a reasonably priced supplier for the Skinners. The duck and the salmon kibbles are both very much the same in terms of quality and ingredients, so it'd be fine to mix them around for variety


----------



## Born2BWild

What in your opinion is the best dry kibble ?

And also what is the best UK one ?

I'm going away for a few days and stuck as to what kibble to give my mum to feed my dogs on (I normally feed raw)

Thank yooou 

P.s. This is a great thread for all the commercial feeders


----------



## SixStar

Born2BWild said:


> What in your opinion is the best dry kibble ?
> 
> And also what is the best UK one ?
> 
> I'm going away for a few days and stuck as to what kibble to give my mum to feed my dogs on (I normally feed raw)
> 
> Thank yooou
> 
> P.s. This is a great thread for all the commercial feeders


In my opinion, the best kibble available is Orijen. Best UK based kibble, Applaws or Fish4Dogs.


----------



## Born2BWild

SixStar said:


> In my opinion, the best kibble available is Orijen. Best UK based kibble, Applaws or Fish4Dogs.


I don't know why I asked for the best UK one as its not really relevant, lmao, silly me !!

I was choosing between Taste of the wild, Acana and Orijen....not sure which one ??

Price is irrelevant as I would only need to buy a one off small bag to tie them over for the few days so either or 

Thank you for your very prompt response


----------



## SixStar

Born2BWild said:


> I don't know why I asked for the best UK one as its not really relevant, lmao, silly me !!
> 
> I was choosing between Taste of the wild, Acana and Orijen....not sure which one ??
> 
> Price is irrelevant as I would only need to buy a one off small bag to tie them over for the few days so either or
> 
> Thank you for your very prompt response


I'd absolutely go for Orijen, the six fish variety if possible


----------



## Born2BWild

SixStar said:


> I'd absolutely go for Orijen, the six fish variety if possible


Ok, super  Thank you Sixstar  xx


----------



## Beth17

Hi SixStar,

Was advised to let you know that Barking heads have changed the 'bad hair day recipe' and is now called 'good hair day'. Could you possibly update it and it'd be interesting to know if you think it's better or worse?

This is the old recipe:

Fresh Lamb (min 26%), White Rice (min 26%), Dried Lamb (min 26%), Ground Oats, Lamb Fat, Salmon Oil, Whole Linseed, Minerals, Dried Tomato, Natural Seaweed, Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, Vitamins. 


Typical Analysis: 
Protein 22%, 
Fat 16%, 
Fibre 3%, 
Ash 9%, 
Moisture 8% 
Vit A 13,500 iu/kg, Vit D3 1,200 iu/kg, Vit E (tocopherols) 400 iu/kg 
Copper (copper sulphate) 12mg/kg 
Omega 6 (linoleic acid) 3.1% 
Omega 3 (linolenic acid) 1.0%

And this is the new:

Boneless Lamb*, Dried Lamb*, Brown Rice, Oats, Barley, (High Omega 3) Trout, Lamb Fat, Natural Flavours, Lucerne, Seaweed, Tomato, Hip & Joint Care Glucosamine 350 mg/kg, MSM 350mg/kg, Chondroitin 240 mg/kg)

*total 50% Lamb

analytical constituents

Crude Protein 22%, Fat Content 16%, Inorganic Matter 8.5%, Crude Fibre 3.5%, Moisture 8%, Omega 6 2.8%, Omega 3 1.9%


----------



## SixStar

Beth17 said:


> Hi SixStar,
> 
> Was advised to let you know that Barking heads have changed the 'bad hair day recipe' and is now called 'good hair day'. Could you possibly update it and it'd be interesting to know if you think it's better or worse?


Thanks for the new ingredients list, have updated. The food looks much the same though to be honest, still a very middle of the road food. A bit disappointing that they don't state exactly how much lamb is fresh and how much is dried anymore, but have emailed them to find out so will update when I get a reply.


----------



## Horse and Hound

Six star, not been able to scan through all but thinking of changing my boys kibble. Im currently feeding Skinners muesli mix but after looking at it t really ain't great! 

I've looked at your list at the start and noticed that Burgess sensitive looks ok and so does the duck and rice skinners. However someone recommended the Summer autarky but the salmon one, not chicken. And it looks ok to me as it doesn't seem to have maize??

Autarky summer salmon Ingredients: Salmon, rice, oats, chicken fat, yeast, full-fat linseed, alfalfa, prairie meal, peas, unmolassed beet pulp, dicalcium phosphate, mannan oligosaccharides, milk thistle, marigold, nettle, seaweed, blackcurrant extract, carrot, yucca extract, thyme, beetroot, tomato, peppermint, fennel, paprika, turmeric, dandelion, ginger, fenugreek, rosemary extract, oregano & aloe vera

Analysis: Protein 24.0%, Fibre 3.0%, Oil 14.0%, Ash, 6.0%, Vitamin A 16,000iu/kg, Vitamin D 1,500iu/kg, Vitamin E 220mg/kg.&#8226;



They are fed raw mince, chicken bones and wainwrights wet but I want a reasonable but decent priced kibble as well.


----------



## lola57

thanks for this really usefull guide,i am looking to change my hounds food so found this ideal,have always avoided meat/animal/veg derivates because it sounds wrong dont really know what it is tho?


----------



## SixStar

Horse and Hound said:


> Six star, not been able to scan through all but thinking of changing my boys kibble. Im currently feeding Skinners muesli mix but after looking at it t really ain't great!
> 
> I've looked at your list at the start and noticed that Burgess sensitive looks ok and so does the duck and rice skinners. However someone recommended the Summer autarky but the salmon one, not chicken. And it looks ok to me as it doesn't seem to have maize??
> 
> Autarky summer salmon Ingredients: Salmon, rice, oats, chicken fat, yeast, full-fat linseed, alfalfa, prairie meal, peas, unmolassed beet pulp, dicalcium phosphate, mannan oligosaccharides, milk thistle, marigold, nettle, seaweed, blackcurrant extract, carrot, yucca extract, thyme, beetroot, tomato, peppermint, fennel, paprika, turmeric, dandelion, ginger, fenugreek, rosemary extract, oregano & aloe vera
> 
> Analysis: Protein 24.0%, Fibre 3.0%, Oil 14.0%, Ash, 6.0%, Vitamin A 16,000iu/kg, Vitamin D 1,500iu/kg, Vitamin E 220mg/kg.
> 
> They are fed raw mince, chicken bones and wainwrights wet but I want a reasonable but decent priced kibble as well.


Hi H & H - glad you're making the move from Skinners Muesli Mix 

Autarky salmon dinner is a good budget dry food - it _does_ contain maize however - prairie meal is maize gluten, but really for the price it's to be expected.

*AUTARKY (salmon dinner with rice, vegetables & herbs)*

*Price (15kg):* £16.99 (from berriewoods only)
*Suggested daily amount:* 220g
*Daily feeding cost:* 24p

*Ingredients:*Salmon (min 35%), rice (min 33%), oats, chicken fat, yeast, full-fat linseed, alfalfa, prairie meal, peas, unmolassed beet pulp, dicalcium phosphate, mannanoligosaccharides, milkthistle, marigold, mnettle, seaweed, blackcurrant extract, carrot, yucca extract, thyme, beetroot, tomato, peppermint, fennel, paprika, turmeric, dandelion, ginger, fenugreek, roesmary extract, oregano and aloe vera (min 0.4% herbs, min 4% vegetables). 

It's a great price too! :thumbup:


----------



## Shutterbug

So we are nearly a week into changing over from Jollyes to Applaws dry food, we are at approx a 60/40 ratio and her poo isn't great (not that poo ever is  ) and really bad wind. Think we don't have enough Jollyes to last for another week of mixing and really don't want to buy a bag of that awful food again  

We did want to mix wet in, should we do this now or wait til the dry food has settled?

How long does it take for them to settle down when changing over to a new food normally? Are we doing it right? :blushing: Any advice would be appreciated


----------



## Carrie4192

SixStar said:


> Hi Carrie, welcome to the forum!
> 
> I'm glad you've decided to change your dog over from Asda Hero  Any of the green listed foods would be a great choice for your little guy, and both your current dog and new puppy can be on the same food - puppies needn't have puppy food, adult food is just fine.
> 
> James Wellbeloved and Wainwrights are both good foods, but Fish4Dogs is brilliant, so I'd go with that personally.
> 
> There is no harm in mixing dry and wet food - it provides more variety and tends to be more palatable to the dog, and the wet food sneaks more moisture into them, so I'd certainly carry on with that. Again, you needn't buy separate adult and puppy wet foods, the same one will do them both.
> 
> Hi Sixstar,
> 
> Finally managed to get samples of the Fish4Dogs and Frodo will not go near it! :huh:
> 
> Will give it to him over the next few days and see how it goes.
> 
> He does like the WW wet food which is a plus just need to find something to go with it. Might try the JWB/WW dry to go with it if the F4D is a no go for him! Fussy dog!
> 
> Fingers crossed
> Carrie


----------



## Born2BWild

Hi,

Could you analyse this dog food (JWB fish and vegetable):

Composition: ocean white fish meal, pea starch, potato flakes, tomato pomace, whole linseed, fish stock, fish oil, olive oil, peas, sugar beet pulp, alfalfa meal, natural seaweed, carrot, chicory pulp, potassium chloride, parsley, nettle, chicory extract, sodium chloride, calcium carbonate, glucosamine, chondroitin, yucca extract 
Minimum levels: fish (26%), pea (26%), potato (20%), linseed (3%), fish stock (3%), alfalfa (1%), seaweed (0.5%), yucca extract (0.02%), chicory extract (0.1%), glucosamine (0.02%), chondroitin (0.02%), parsley (0.1%), nettle (0.1%) 
Additives per kg: antioxidants: E306/Natural antioxidant, 150mg, Vitamins: E672/Vitamin A, 15.000 iu, E671/Vitamin D3, 2,250 iu, Trace elements: E1/iron, 40mg, E2/iodine, 2mg, E4/copper, 5mg, E5/manganese, 25mg, E6/zinc, 100mg 
Analytical Constituents: protein 21.0%, crude fibres 4.8%, fat content 10.5%, crude ash 7%, Vitamin E 150mg/kg, omega-3 fatty acids 2%, omega-6 fatty acids 1.4%

Thank you ! (This isn't for me but trying to convince a friend who feeds this to swap to raw and said I would get an analysis on this food for her )


----------



## SixStar

Shutterbug said:


> So we are nearly a week into changing over from Jollyes to Applaws dry food, we are at approx a 60/40 ratio and her poo isn't great (not that poo ever is  ) and really bad wind. Think we don't have enough Jollyes to last for another week of mixing and really don't want to buy a bag of that awful food again
> 
> We did want to mix wet in, should we do this now or wait til the dry food has settled?
> 
> How long does it take for them to settle down when changing over to a new food normally? Are we doing it right? :blushing: Any advice would be appreciated


Sorry to hear the change over isn't going great - some dogs do take a little longer to adjust than others, so it might be worth buying another small bag of the old stuff. Or, providing the dog isn't a puppy, bite the bullet and whack him straight over onto the Applaws - maybe have a few days of a loose tummy and then it'll probably settle down.

I'd wait until his tum is settled on the dry food before adding anything new with the wet food.



Carrie4192 said:


> Hi Sixstar,
> 
> Finally managed to get samples of the Fish4Dogs and Frodo will not go near it! :huh:
> 
> Will give it to him over the next few days and see how it goes.
> 
> He does like the WW wet food which is a plus just need to find something to go with it. Might try the JWB/WW dry to go with it if the F4D is a no go for him! Fussy dog!
> 
> Fingers crossed
> Carrie


Fussy is right!  If you want to feed him Fish4Dogs, then don't play up to his fussiness - give him the F4D on it's own, give him fifteen minutes to eat it, and if he doesn't take it up and offer nothing else until the next meal time. He'll soon learn to eat what you say, when you say 



Born2BWild said:


> Hi,
> 
> Could you analyse this dog food (JWB fish and vegetable):
> 
> Thank you ! (This isn't for me but trying to convince a friend who feeds this to swap to raw and said I would get an analysis on this food for her )


* JAMES WELLBELOVED (cereal free, ocean white fish & vegetable)*

*Price (10kg):* £42.49
*Suggested daily amount:* 250g
*Daily feeding cost:* 40p

*Ingredients:* Ocean white fish meal (26%), pea starch (26%), potato flakes (20%), tomato pomace, whole linseed, fish stock, fish oil, olive oil, peas, sugar beet pulp, alfalfa meal, natural seaweed, carrot, chicory pulp, potassium chloride, parsley, nettle, chicory extract, sodium chloride, calcium carbonate, glucosamine, chondroitin, yucca extract. 

A reasonable grain free food - James Wellbeloved is a good company, and their 'with vegetable' products are much better than their 'with rice' ones


----------



## Born2BWild

SixStar said:


> Sorry to hear the change over isn't going great - some dogs do take a little longer to adjust than others, so it might be worth buying another small bag of the old stuff. Or, providing the dog isn't a puppy, bite the bullet and whack him straight over onto the Applaws - maybe have a few days of a loose tummy and then it'll probably settle down.
> 
> I'd wait until his tum is settled on the dry food before adding anything new with the wet food.
> 
> Fussy is right!  If you want to feed him Fish4Dogs, then don't play up to his fussiness - give him the F4D on it's own, give him fifteen minutes to eat it, and if he doesn't take it up and offer nothing else until the next meal time. He'll soon learn to eat what you say, when you say
> 
> * JAMES WELLBELOVED (cereal free, ocean white fish & vegetable)*
> 
> *Price (10kg):* £42.49
> *Suggested daily amount:* 250g
> *Daily feeding cost:* 40p
> 
> *Ingredients:* Ocean white fish meal (26%), pea starch (26%), potato flakes (20%), tomato pomace, whole linseed, fish stock, fish oil, olive oil, peas, sugar beet pulp, alfalfa meal, natural seaweed, carrot, chicory pulp, potassium chloride, parsley, nettle, chicory extract, sodium chloride, calcium carbonate, glucosamine, chondroitin, yucca extract.
> 
> A reasonable grain free food - James Wellbeloved is a good company, and their 'with vegetable' products are much better than their 'with rice' ones


Ok, don't think this will convince her to swap to raw lmao! One thing I picked up on was the sodium chloride, would this suggest a high salt content?


----------



## SixStar

Born2BWild said:


> Ok, don't think this will convince her to swap to raw lmao! One thing I picked up on was the sodium chloride, would this suggest a high salt content?


If that's what she's feeding, and she doesn't want to change to raw, then I wouldn't worry - it's a good food. Yes, sodium chloride is salt - don't know how much exactly is in it, but dogs do NEED some salt in their diets, so some in the food is not always a bad thing.


----------



## Born2BWild

SixStar said:


> If that's what she's feeding, and she doesn't want to change to raw, then I wouldn't worry - it's a good food. Yes, sodium chloride is salt - don't know how much exactly is in it, but dogs do NEED some salt in their diets, so some in the food is not always a bad thing.


Ok, lol, we were debating raw and dry and she insisted her dogs diet was better as she knew what they were getting etc and trying to prove her wrong lmao x


----------



## SixStar

Born2BWild said:


> Ok, lol, we were debating raw and dry and she insisted her dogs diet was better as she knew what they were getting etc and trying to prove her wrong lmao x


Oh raw is absolutely better than dry, I'm not disputing that one bit! It's the ONLY diet where you TRULY know just what the dog is eating. But as far as commercial foods go, JWB cereal free certainly isn't bad.


----------



## Born2BWild

SixStar said:


> Oh raw is absolutely better than dry, I'm not disputing that one bit! It's the ONLY diet where you TRULY know just what the dog is eating. But as far as commercial foods go, JWB cereal free certainly isn't bad.


Ok! Haha, I might just leave her to it  Thank you SixStar for your ongoing help  How is Harvey recovering? x


----------



## SixStar

He's doing well, thank you. Not happy with no proper walks, but loving the small frequent meals


----------



## Shutterbug

Thanks Sixstar! Will get some more Jollyes as she's only 11 weeks old. Will keep on with the Applaws and see how she goes, if not will try another


----------



## Horse and Hound

SixStar said:


> Hi H & H - glad you're making the move from Skinners Muesli Mix
> 
> Autarky salmon dinner is a good budget dry food - it _does_ contain maize however - prairie meal is maize gluten, but really for the price it's to be expected.
> 
> *AUTARKY (salmon dinner with rice, vegetables & herbs)*
> 
> *Price (15kg):* £16.99 (from berriewoods only)
> *Suggested daily amount:* 220g
> *Daily feeding cost:* 24p
> 
> *Ingredients:*Salmon (min 35%), rice (min 33%), oats, chicken fat, yeast, full-fat linseed, alfalfa, prairie meal, peas, unmolassed beet pulp, dicalcium phosphate, mannanoligosaccharides, milkthistle, marigold, mnettle, seaweed, blackcurrant extract, carrot, yucca extract, thyme, beetroot, tomato, peppermint, fennel, paprika, turmeric, dandelion, ginger, fenugreek, roesmary extract, oregano and aloe vera (min 0.4% herbs, min 4% vegetables).
> 
> It's a great price too! :thumbup:


Just had a look at Berriewoods. Its £24.50 for me for a 15kg sack to be delivered. Round here it retails at between £22 and £25 for a bag so think I will pick it up locally.

Sixstar, If you had to choose then between the Skinners Duck/Salmon and rice, and the Autarky which one would you go for?


----------



## SixStar

Horse and Hound said:


> Just had a look at Berriewoods. Its £24.50 for me for a 15kg sack to be delivered. Round here it retails at between £22 and £25 for a bag so think I will pick it up locally.
> 
> Sixstar, If you had to choose then between the Skinners Duck/Salmon and rice, and the Autarky which one would you go for?


Yes I should update the price I have listed - I think that was the Berriewoods introductory price when it was first launched.

Honestly there's not much between Skinners salmon/duck and Autarky salmon - if I HAD to choose, it'd probably be the Skinners purely because it's completely maize free. But both are brilliant for the price


----------



## Horse and Hound

SixStar said:


> Yes I should update the price I have listed - I think that was the Berriewoods introductory price when it was first launched.
> 
> Honestly there's not much between Skinners salmon/duck and Autarky salmon - if I HAD to choose, it'd probably be the Skinners purely because it's completely maize free. But both are brilliant for the price


Thanks for that.

I must admit, thinking about it I'm leaning towards the Skinners now because as the ingredients are largely the same, I can swap the flavours each time I get a bag.

It seems easier to get hold of, and the boys have had it before I swapped to the muesli.

God its a mine field isn't it!? Thanks for the help though, muchly appreciated!


----------



## Born2BWild

Hi, me again!

What do you reckon about "Whites" ?

Here are a couple of feeds I've been looking at from them:


Super Premium Salmon & Potato 15kg


Made with fresh Salmon and Potato. Hypoallergenic and highly digestible source of protein with a full complement of vitamins. Produced using fewer ingredients, therefore less likely to cause a digestive intolerance.

TYPICAL ANALYSIS: Protein* 23%, Oil* 12.0%, Fibre* 4.00%, Ash* 7.0%, Omega 6 1.6%, Omega 3 1.09%


INGREDIENTS: Fresh Salmon (Min 24%), Salmon Meal (Min 12.5%), Potato (Min 26%) , Oats, Peas, Salmon Oil, Hydrolysed Salmon, Salmon Liver Sunflower Oil, Seaweed, Tocopherol Rich Extracts, Minerals, Vitamins

And..

Premium Working Dog with Garlic & Herbs 15kg


Premium Working Dog with chicken and herbs, for the dog with endless energy. Contains Garlic for therapeutic effect.*Suited to working dog breeds which get plenty of daily exercise.

TYPICAL ANALYSIS: Protein* 22.00%, Oil* 12.00%, Fibre* 3.00%, Ash* 8.00%


INGREDIENTS: Salmon, Herbs (4.00%), Rice, Garlic (4.00%), Carrots, Green Beans, Whole Linseed, Maize
Beet, Fish Oil, Yucca, Minerals, Vitamins A, C and E, Prebiotic FOS, Omega 3

Thank you!


----------



## SixStar

Born2BWild said:


> Hi, me again!
> 
> What do you reckon about "Whites" ?
> 
> Here are a couple of feeds I've been looking at from them:
> 
> Super Premium Salmon & Potato 15kg
> 
> Made with fresh Salmon and Potato. Hypoallergenic and highly digestible source of protein with a full complement of vitamins. Produced using fewer ingredients, therefore less likely to cause a digestive intolerance.
> 
> And..
> 
> Premium Working Dog with Garlic & Herbs 15kg
> 
> Premium Working Dog with chicken and herbs, for the dog with endless energy. Contains Garlic for therapeutic effect.*Suited to working dog breeds which get plenty of daily exercise.
> 
> Thank you!


*WHITES (super premium, salmon & potato)*

*Price (12kg): * £27.99
*Suggested daily amount: * 223g
*Daily feeding cost:* 41p

*Ingredients: *Fresh salmon (min 24%), salmon meal (min 12.5%), potato (min 26%) , oats, peas, salmon oil, hydrolysed salmon, salmon liver, sunflower oil, seaweed, tocopherol rich extracts, minerals, vitamins

Not too bad - I'd rather have seen more salmon meal than fresh, and would have been better without the oats, making it grain free, but all in all not a bad food. Although I certainly wouldn't call it ''super premium''!

*WHITES (working dog, with garlic & herbs)*

*Price (15kg): * £23.99
*Suggested daily amount: * 223g
*Daily feeding cost:* 35p

*Ingredients: * Salmon, herbs (4%), rice, garlic (4%), carrots, green beans, whole linseed, maize beet, fish oil, yucca, minerals, vitamins A, C and E, prebiotic FOS, omega 3

Not that great - scraps through just as an orange! Lots and lots of different grains and it's not stated whether the salmon is fresh or meal, but a fairly reasonable food, and I like the addition of garlic.

I've worked just from the ingredients lists you've gave me - I can't find either product anywhere online? And Whites don't seem to have a website?  So can't add prices or feeding requirements - could I please have a couple of links for the foods so I can fill in the gaps please.


----------



## Born2BWild

Yes sure, it's:

Natural Premium Nutrition for every dog - Premium Dog Food without the Premium Price Tag

Although I cannot find a feeding guide...

Fish4Dogs seems very appealing to my dogs after the samples so I think they are winning me over as a good food and my dogs have given the paws up


----------



## SixStar

Born2BWild said:


> Yes sure, it's:
> 
> Natural Premium Nutrition for every dog - Premium Dog Food without the Premium Price Tag
> 
> Although I cannot find a feeding guide...
> 
> Fish4Dogs seems very appealing to my dogs after the samples so I think they are winning me over as a good food and my dogs have given the paws up


Thanks for that, have added the prices in and will email them for feeding guides


----------



## Born2BWild

Ok, they are on "which dog food" and it says for a 15-20kg dog they would recommend 223g food per day, working out at 55p. If this isn't the weight you've been working on then let me know and I will find the amount for the weight you've been basing your averages on  Which dog food have rated it at 3.2 out of 5 so you are spot on yet again SixStar, I love this thread


----------



## SixStar

Born2BWild said:


> Ok, they are on "which dog food" and it says for a 15-20kg dog they would recommend 223g food per day, working out at 55p. If this isn't the weight you've been working on then let me know and I will find the amount for the weight you've been basing your averages on  Which dog food have rated it at 3.2 out of 5 so you are spot on yet again SixStar, I love this thread


Thanks, 15 kg is the weight I've based all the feeding guidelines on, have updated the listing. Glad you've found the thread useful


----------



## xxxnickixxx

could anyone tell me if TOTW is any good ive just ordered a bag for my 2 dogs .. also just i give both meals dry or add a litle warm water


----------



## Born2BWild

Sorry to keep asking you to review foods but please may you review this one ?

SPR Centre - Premium Adult Sensitive

Tripe (26%), potato, poultry meal, chicken fat, duck meal, chicken liver, peas, salmon meal (4%), unmolassed beet pulp, alfalfa, carrot, full fat linseed, yeast, apple, cellulose, nettle, seaweed, mannan oligosaccharides, milk, thistle, marigold, tomato, glucosamine, dandelion, celery, burdock root, devils claw root, yucca schidigera, blackcurrant, green lipid mussel, kale, beetroot, rosemary.

Cost: £22.95 for 15kg
Feeding guide: 10-25kg - 155-310g per day.

Thank you!


----------



## Horse and Hound

POsted this on another thread, but thought some people may find it interesting.

I'm currently grappling with 2 foods. Either Skinners F&T Salmon/Duck and Rice, or Autarky Salmon.

http://www.skinnerspetfoods.co.uk/products/Field---Trial-Products/Salmon---Rice/

Composition: Whole rice (40%), salmon meal (17.5% dry weight), naked oats, peas, sunflower oil, whole linseed, 
beet pulp, vitamins and minerals.

http://www.skinnerspetfoods.co.uk/products/Field---Trial-Products/Duck---Rice/

Composition: Whole rice (40%), duck meat meal (20%), naked 
oats, peas, whole linseed, sunflower oil, beet pulp, 
vitamins and minerals.

Both of the above appeal to me because they don't have any maize in them, and the duck seems to retail between £22 and £25 for a 15kg sack and the salmon at about £27. The down side is that the main ingredient is rice.

Autarky Salmon:

Salmon (min 35%), rice (min 33%), oats, chicken fat, yeast, full fat linseed, alfalfa, prairie meal, peas, unmolassed beet pulp, dicalcium phosphate, mannan oligosaccharides, milk thistle, marigold, nettle, seaweed, blackcurrant extract, carrot, yucca extract, thyme, beetroot, tomato, peppermint, fennel, paprika, turmeric, dandelion, ginger, fenugreek, oregano & aloe vera (min 0.4% herbs, min 4% vegetables).

That retails at about £22-£27 for a 15kg bag.

I'm leaning towards the Autarky now, again having read that. There appears to be far more Salmon in it, however my only slight reservations is the Maize content of the prairy meal. However, neither of mine seem to have an intolerance to maize. It seems to be stuff that is heavy in wheat gluten that sets Roo off scratching to it so I'm undecided.

However, on the other thread I was comparing the above to Arden Grange Salmon.

Ingredients: Fresh Salmon (min 26%), Whole Grain Rice (min 26%), Whole Grain Maize, Chicken Fat*, Chicken Meal*, Beet Pulp, Dried Brewers Yeast, Egg Powder, Fish Meal*, Linseed, Fish Oil*, Minerals, Vitamins, Nucleotides, Prebiotic FOS, Prebiotic MOS, Cranberry Extract, Chondroitin Sulphate, Glucosamine Sulphate, MSM, Yucca Extract. * Preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract.

Their 15kg bag retails at the best part of £40. The first ingredient is Salmon, but there's less salmon than in the Autarky and it does contain Maize as well. Whilst I don't think AG is a bad food, if I had a budget of £40 per 15kg sack, I wouldn't choose this. I actually object to paying £40 for soemthing that isn't much better ingredient wise than something that costs between £20 and £25. Its the same with Burns. That's ridiculously priced for the ingredients.

At least with SKinners or Autarky you are getting a fairly good, middle of the road food with a very good price attached.


----------



## SixStar

xxxnickixxx said:


> could anyone tell me if TOTW is any good ive just ordered a bag for my 2 dogs .. also just i give both meals dry or add a litle warm water


Taste of the Wild is a very good food. Feeding dry or with a little warm water is personal preference 



Born2BWild said:


> Sorry to keep asking you to review foods but please may you review this one ?
> 
> SPR Centre - Premium Adult Sensitive
> 
> Cost: £22.95 for 15kg
> Feeding guide: 10-25kg - 155-310g per day.
> 
> Thank you!


*SPR CENTRE (premium sensitive)*

*Price (15kg): * £22.95
*Suggested daily amount: * 200g
*Daily feeding cost:* 30p

*Ingredients: *Tripe (26%), potato, poultry meal, chicken fat, duck meal, chicken liver, peas, salmon meal (4%), unmolassed beet pulp, alfalfa, carrot, full fat linseed, yeast, apple, cellulose, nettle, seaweed, mannan oligosaccharides, milk, thistle, marigold, tomato, glucosamine, dandelion, celery, burdock root, devils claw root, yucca schidigera, blackcurrant, green lipid mussel, kale, beetroot, rosemary

A very nice budget feed - I would be interested to know if the tripe is fresh or meal (I do suspect it's fresh, which would drastically lower the final meat content in the food) but it's a fair quality kibble with lots of beneficial natural extracts. A good well priced option


----------



## Born2BWild

SixStar said:


> Taste of the Wild is a very good food. Feeding dry or with a little warm water is personal preference
> 
> *SPR CENTRE (premium sensitive)*
> 
> *Price (15kg): * £22.95
> *Suggested daily amount: * 200g
> *Daily feeding cost:* 30p
> 
> *Ingredients: *Tripe (26%), potato, poultry meal, chicken fat, duck meal, chicken liver, peas, salmon meal (4%), unmolassed beet pulp, alfalfa, carrot, full fat linseed, yeast, apple, cellulose, nettle, seaweed, mannan oligosaccharides, milk, thistle, marigold, tomato, glucosamine, dandelion, celery, burdock root, devils claw root, yucca schidigera, blackcurrant, green lipid mussel, kale, beetroot, rosemary
> 
> A very nice budget feed - I would be interested to know if the tripe is fresh or meal (I do suspect it's fresh, which would drastically lower the final meat content in the food) but it's a fair quality kibble with lots of beneficial natural extracts. A good well priced option


Thank you SixStar (again!!) hehe...

I have bought 2.5kg to try my hound on as I'm very impressed with the ingredients for the price!

I will be feeding 50-50 raw/kibble as she will eat chicken wings, ribs and lamb bones so thinking of feeding kibble am and bones pm or something similar


----------



## Anna43

Oh dear - over 50 pages to catch up.....

Zara was on Orijen for long time but had to change to Skinners (salmon) few month ago due to massive cut in income.

I wish I could keep her on Orijen but Skinners works out less than half price of Orijen.. with Zara being 40kg of a GS...

Going to read through the thread now to see if there are any reviews on Skinners.....


----------



## Anna43

HOrse and Hound - the best price I have found for Skinners Salmon is on vet UK:

£24.81 for a 15kg bag,
free delivery and 10$ off second bag if you order 2 at the same time

Skinners Field and Trial Salmon Rice Dog Food 15Kg - £24.81


----------



## Horse and Hound

Anna43 said:


> HOrse and Hound - the best price I have found for Skinners Salmon is on vet UK:
> 
> £24.81 for a 15kg bag,
> free delivery and 10$ off second bag if you order 2 at the same time
> 
> Skinners Field and Trial Salmon Rice Dog Food 15Kg - £24.81


That isn't bad actually. I'll look into it in more detail when I'm ready to swap. Thanks!


----------



## Anna43

NOt at all - I swapped Zara from Orijen to Skinners few months ago due to financial ermmm crisis 

Vet UK deliveries are brilliant, they send you and sms on the day of delivery with an hour (!!!) slot and the parcel arrives within that hour. Very good service.


----------



## javlin

Royal Canin or Eukeneuba are the very best, albeit pricey.

That Blue Buffalo is crap. They also lie on their website when compaing other brands ingredients because they said my dog food had animal by product in it and it did not.


----------



## Born2BWild

javlin said:


> Royal Canin or Eukeneuba are the very best, albeit pricey.
> 
> That Blue Buffalo is crap. They also lie on their website when compaing other brands ingredients because they said my dog food had animal by product in it and it did not.


Royal Canin certainly isn't the very best neither is eukaneuba...

The very best dry foods are;

Orijen, Acana, Taste of the wild, Applaws and Fish4Dogs.

Why makes you believe those 2 are the "very best" ??


----------



## Amy-manycats

Ignore Javelin, just a spammer advertising his links. Look at his other post.

Perhaps watching the olympics inspired the name


----------



## Horse and Hound

Anna43 said:


> NOt at all - I swapped Zara from Orijen to Skinners few months ago due to financial ermmm crisis
> 
> Vet UK deliveries are brilliant, they send you and sms on the day of delivery with an hour (!!!) slot and the parcel arrives within that hour. Very good service.


Roo was on Royal Canin for a while, then when we got Harvey I couldn't afford it for both of them, plus it gave Harvey the squits.

I have 2 horses and a bunch of other animals, and all get the best I can afford. Skinners is not a bad food for the price, neither is Autarky. Something to me jsut doesn't ring right about paying over £50 for a bag od dog food.


----------



## MegrezBC

Does anyone know how good CSJ or Oscar's dog foods are? Thanks


----------



## SixStar

MegrezBC said:


> Does anyone know how good CSJ or Oscar's dog foods are? Thanks


Which ones in particular?


----------



## MegrezBC

I was looking at the mixer that CSJ do, but a review on any of the others would also be helpful. Was also wanting to know how good the Oscar advanced lamb and rice is?


----------



## SixStar

MegrezBC said:


> I was looking at the mixer that CSJ do, but a review on any of the others would also be helpful. Was also wanting to know how good the Oscar advanced lamb and rice is?


The CSJ mixer is dire -



> Wheat, Wheatfeed, Chicken Fat, Oats, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate


I really would avoid at all costs - there is nothing this could possibly add to a food. Most wet foods are complete these days anyway so you needn't use a traditional biscuit mixer, or if you are just wanting it for the crunch aspect, you'd be much better off using a bit of good quality complete kibble.

There are a few CSJ foods that have been reviewed throughout the thread if you do a search back and have a look 

*OSCARS ADVANCED (maize, lamb & rice)*

*Price 15kg:* £39.95 
*Suggested daily amount:* ?
*Daily feeding cost:* ?

*Ingredients:*Maize (33%), lamb (30%), rice (25%), poultry fat, salt, fructo-oligosaccharides, tocopherol extracts of natural origin 

A very poor quality food - maize is the first ingredient which is indigestible to dogs, and there's lots of rice too making this a very cereal heavy feed. 30% lamb sounds good but it doesn't state whether this is fresh or meal - if fresh this means it has been listed before the moisture content has been removed, and once that is done you are left with much less meat actually left in the food. Meal is better in a dry food, since this is meat which has already had it's moisture content removed, and hence gives a true reading of the percentage of meat in the food.

There are no feeding requirements listed online so I cannot work out costs, but I've emailed them to find out and will update when I get a reply. £39.99 is incredibly expensive though, given the ingredients!


----------



## RichardJordan

A very interesting read. 
Really useful so thankyou for compiling it.

I agree that Orijen and Acana deserve the high 'green' rating.

Improving your dog's diet can make a big difference. 
We had a friend who had a choc lab whose coat and skin was poor. I advised the owner to change from a low quality diet to one of your green options and within a month the dog's condition improved dramatically.
The dog is now much healthier.

I'd be interested to know what rating you would give Lily's Kitchen?

Lily's Kitchen Dog Food and Cat Food - Viovet

can you do an updated list?

This link has over 60 brands including some that are not on the list
Dog Food Online Suppliers UK - VioVet

thanks
Rich


----------



## Frankthewonderhound

Just want to say thanks for all the info on the 1st page ref what food is good/bad, I know it's only your personal opinion but you can tell you know what you're talking about and admit I feel a little bit embarrassed I had never paid any real attention to the food I was giving him, Purina beta for the record...
£7.99 a 3kg sack whish would last a month 


I've started a month ago (after reading the thread on here front to back) to feed him raw from Fri night 'til Tuesday and he absolutely loves this but I still wanted a dry food for him for through the week, so......ordered last week a huuuuge sack of Taste of The Wild (£47.99 13.5kg) which I am currently easing him into and he seems to be a lot more excited about seeing his bowl (didn't think that was possible) than he was before, even if it still has some of the Devil's dry on top until totally phased out. It's a fair jump from £8 to £25 a month but comparing what the difference is it's a miniscule price to pay for my dogs health/nutrition. 

This will be a great reference to come back to for extra info so... cheers.


----------



## missP

thank you sixstar for taking the time to do this,. it helped me a lot, my head was buzzing with all the different foods.

got a small bag of Applaws to try Cody on with the naturediet trays he's been having.


----------



## SueBoo

RichardJordan said:


> A very interesting read.
> Really useful so thankyou for compiling it.
> 
> I agree that Orijen and Acana deserve the high 'green' rating.
> 
> Improving your dog's diet can make a big difference.
> We had a friend who had a choc lab whose coat and skin was poor. I advised the owner to change from a low quality diet to one of your green options and within a month the dog's condition improved dramatically.
> The dog is now much healthier.
> 
> I'd be interested to know what rating you would give Lily's Kitchen?
> 
> Lily's Kitchen Dog Food and Cat Food - Viovet
> 
> can you do an updated list?
> 
> This link has over 60 brands including some that are not on the list
> Dog Food Online Suppliers UK - VioVet
> 
> thanks
> Rich


Lily's Kitchen is a wet food, you can find it listed in the wet food index.

As far as I know the initial post is full so updates can be found throughout the thread.


----------



## Born2BWild

SueBoo said:


> Lily's Kitchen is a wet food, you can find it listed in the wet food index.
> 
> As far as I know the initial post is full so updates can be found throughout the thread.


You can get Lily's kitchen dry too :thumbup:


----------



## SixStar

Frankthewonderhound said:


> Just want to say thanks for all the info on the 1st page ref what food is good/bad, I know it's only your personal opinion but you can tell you know what you're talking about and admit I feel a little bit embarrassed I had never paid any real attention to the food I was giving him, Purina beta for the record...
> £7.99 a 3kg sack whish would last a month
> 
> I've started a month ago (after reading the thread on here front to back) to feed him raw from Fri night 'til Tuesday and he absolutely loves this but I still wanted a dry food for him for through the week, so......ordered last week a huuuuge sack of Taste of The Wild (£47.99 13.5kg) which I am currently easing him into and he seems to be a lot more excited about seeing his bowl (didn't think that was possible) than he was before, even if it still has some of the Devil's dry on top until totally phased out. It's a fair jump from £8 to £25 a month but comparing what the difference is it's a miniscule price to pay for my dogs health/nutrition.
> 
> This will be a great reference to come back to for extra info so... cheers.


Delighted to hear you've made the switch from Beta to ToTW - lucky pup! 



missP said:


> thank you sixstar for taking the time to do this,. it helped me a lot, my head was buzzing with all the different foods.
> 
> got a small bag of Applaws to try Cody on with the naturediet trays he's been having.


I'm glad you've found it useful 



RichardJordan said:


> A very interesting read.
> Really useful so thankyou for compiling it.
> 
> I agree that Orijen and Acana deserve the high 'green' rating.
> 
> Improving your dog's diet can make a big difference.
> We had a friend who had a choc lab whose coat and skin was poor. I advised the owner to change from a low quality diet to one of your green options and within a month the dog's condition improved dramatically.
> The dog is now much healthier.
> 
> I'd be interested to know what rating you would give Lily's Kitchen?
> 
> Lily's Kitchen Dog Food and Cat Food - Viovet
> 
> can you do an updated list?
> 
> This link has over 60 brands including some that are not on the list
> Dog Food Online Suppliers UK - VioVet
> 
> thanks
> Rich


As well as the initial opening bunch of listings there are loads of others dotted throughout the thread if you wanted to do a browse through for anything in particular. I've run out of available text in the opening post so I cannot add any additional listings to that - there's SO many different brands so it's not possible to include every single one, but I will try and look into any brand as and when anybody mentions it 

Lily's Kitchen dry food is included on the first page - the vast majority of those foods on Viovet have been covered (there's a wet food index too).


----------



## soulful dog

Wouldn't it be worthwhile reposting an updated version of this thread SixStar - if you are up for the work involved of course!? 

You could repost it and spread the details over two posts, and also 'reserve' the first couple of replies too for further updates so you don't run out of room again. 

It could also have a link to this original thread, then get the new thread stickied and this one un-stuck?


----------



## SixStar

soulful dog said:


> Wouldn't it be worthwhile reposting an updated version of this thread SixStar - if you are up for the work involved of course!?
> 
> You could repost it and spread the details over two posts, and also 'reserve' the first couple of replies too for further updates so you don't run out of room again.
> 
> It could also have a link to this original thread, then get the new thread stickied and this one un-stuck?


If the mods would be willing to un-stick this and re-stick the new one then I'd be happy to :thumbup:

Away for a week as of tomorrow, but will contact a mod to see if it's possible when I'm back.


----------



## Coco pop

Six star:

I have tried her on James wellbeloved not overly fussed with it to be honest and I dont think she is either.

I am taking your advice and putting her on Applaws. She is a small dog so which one is best? Please advice ASAP as I need to buy ASAP.

Should I put her on adult food rather than puppy? She is 13 weeks old.

This is what I was thinking of putting her on:

Applaws Natural Complete Puppy Medium and Small Breed with Chicken and Vegetables 2kg | Pets at Home

Re: treats anything that we can treat her with really, what do you recommend?

Thanks so much for all the opinions and advice!!!


----------



## Born2BWild

Coco pop said:


> Six star:
> 
> I have tried her on James wellbeloved not overly fussed with it to be honest and I dont think she is either.
> 
> I am taking your advice and putting her on Applaws. She is a small dog so which one is best? Please advice ASAP as I need to buy ASAP.
> 
> Should I put her on adult food rather than puppy? She is 13 weeks old.
> 
> This is what I was thinking of putting her on:
> 
> Applaws Natural Complete Puppy Medium and Small Breed with Chicken and Vegetables 2kg | Pets at Home
> 
> Re: treats anything that we can treat her with really, what do you recommend?
> 
> Thanks so much for all the opinions and advice!!!


Hii, I know I'm not SixStar but that food will be fine  xx


----------



## Shutterbug

We have changed Harper onto Applaws dry puppy/small dog food, she loves it! We have started mixing in some wainwrights wet trays and I've never seen a bowl cleared so fast! We did try Applaws pouches but she didn't like.

At the moment we are getting the Applaws dry food from medic animal, free delivery and 10% off identical items. 

Hope this helps


----------



## Coco pop

Hi. 

Very helpful!

I've orders that one now so will have it by next week managed to get free delivery and slightly cheaper than pets at home so bonus!

Thanks for the help


----------



## Coco pop

Hi. 

Ordered this hoping it will be better than James well beloved!

Thanks again


----------



## macster

Excellent information on the many dry foods on the market. Another site to use for many foods is Dog Food Analysis , enter the food name in the search bar, have a look at what it says about Bakers!! A really good product around at the moment is the Simpsons Premium sensitive range, 45% meat or fish with no grain or cereal. Fantastic results with skin/itching/chewing problems. At around £34 for a 12kg bag compared to Barking Heads its really good value. If you didn't already know Arden Grange and other market leaders are reducing the majority of their range from 15kg to 12kg. Hope that helps.


----------



## barksy

Hi sixstar.

Thanks for doing all this  its helped me a lot.
Ive even started giving the boys some raw.

Is this a good Cereal Free and Grain Free food ?
How does it compare to Arden grange Lamb and rice ? better with no rice or maize, what about the minerals and vitamins ?


Product Name:	Duck and Potato 
GA Code:	DPT


A Complete Food for your Adult Dog

This kibble is highly palatable and digestible. It is hypoallergenic because it is formulated without wheat and wheat gluten. It will provide a complete diet for your dog and it contains a full complement of vitamins and minerals. It will also encourage a healthy skin and coat because it contains omega-3 and 6 along with zinc and biotin. 


Analytical Constituents:

Crude Protein	%	26
Crude Oils & Fats	%	12
Crude Fibre	%	4
Crude Ash	%	10
Omega 6 % 2.42
Omega 3 % 0.64




Additives:

Vitamins: Vitamin A (as retinyl acetate) 15,000 IU/kg, Vitamin D3 (as cholecalciferol) 2,250 IU/kg, Biotin 150 mcg/kg; Trace Elements: Ferrous Sulphate Monohydrate 167 mg/kg (Iron 50 mg/kg), Zinc Sulphate Monohydrate 139 mg/kg (Zinc 50 mg/kg), Manganous Sulphate Monohydrate 109 mg/kg (Manganese 35 mg/kg), Cupric Sulphate Pentahydrate 60 mg/kg (Copper 15 mg/kg), Calcium Iodate Anhydrous 1.64 mg/kg (Iodine 1 mg/kg), Sodium Selenite 0.67 mg/kg (Selenium 0.3 mg/kg)


Composition:

Potato (26%), Duck Meal (26%), Peas, Sugar Beet Pulp, Poultry Fat, Brewers Yeast, Linseed, Chicken Hydrolysate, Minerals, Vitamins


Feeding Guide:


Adult Weight (kg)	Grams per day of food
1-5	35-115
5-20	115-330
20-30	330-445
30+	445+


----------



## SixStar

barksy said:


> Hi sixstar.
> 
> Thanks for doing all this  its helped me a lot.
> Ive even started giving the boys some raw.
> 
> Is this a good Cereal Free and Grain Free food ?
> How does it compare to Arden grange Lamb and rice ? better with no rice or maize, what about the minerals and vitamins ?


Hi Barksy, glad it's been useful to you.

That food looks to be a good basic grain free kibble - I'd much rather feed that over Arden Grange


----------



## barksy

SixStar said:


> Hi Barksy, glad it's been useful to you.
> 
> That food looks to be a good basic grain free kibble - I'd much rather feed that over Arden Grange


That's what i thought as well. 
Thanks sixstar.


----------



## macster

Have a look at the Simpsons Premium sensitive range,45% meat , no grain or wheat . Excellent product.


----------



## dodger99

*This is an independent reviews of all dog foods..

Dog Food Reviews - Dry Dog Foods - Powered by ReviewPost*


----------



## Born2BWild

Hi SixStar, I was wondering if you can help...Cleo has been diagnosed with a liver disfunction - which kind of disfunction is yet to be investigated, but to help the liver process food etc I have decided to put her on a low fat and protein food (more so with fat). Her bile acid test is what has indicated the disfunction. I recently changed her on to Applaws kibble before knowing about her liver - I have put her on naturediet as it has a lot less protein and fat than most good kibble - could you recommend anything ? Thank you xx


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## Goblin

I'll jump on the gun here if you do not mind with a couple of links...
DogAware.com Kidney Disease: Is a Low-Protein Diet Desirable or Necessary?
DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs
Low Protein Dog Foods
Kidney Disease in Dogs

These are just ones I found in a couple of minutes checking.


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## Born2BWild

Goblin said:


> I'll jump on the gun here if you do not mind with a couple of links...
> DogAware.com Kidney Disease: Is a Low-Protein Diet Desirable or Necessary?
> DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs
> Low Protein Dog Foods
> Kidney Disease in Dogs
> 
> These are just ones I found in a couple of minutes checking.


Thank yooou  I have had a look and they are based on a dog with kidney disease and how it's not relevant for a dog to go on a low protein diet, what about liver ? As its her liver where a disfunction is present...Thank you for your help! xx


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## Goblin

My mistake, should of read previous post better. For liver:
Is it Necessary to Reduce Protein in the Diet? | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter
The Liver | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter
Canine Liver Disease Diet
http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Dog-Health-Center/Digestive-Disorders/Liver-Disease/Treatment.aspx which is one which says restrict protein.

From my understanding it very much depends on the "type" of problem.

My recommendation is to look at something canineliver-d yahoo group and ask specific questions in a support group which has detailed knowledge.


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## SixStar

Seems Goblin has given you the info you need  I wouldn't have liked to suggest anything anyway I'm afraid - I don't know enough about liver disorders to be able to comment, and would hate to give a completely wrong recommendation. Please let us know what you find suitable though - it's always good to know these things.


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## Born2BWild

Goblin said:


> My mistake, should of read previous post better. For liver:
> Is it Necessary to Reduce Protein in the Diet? | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter
> The Liver | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter
> Canine Liver Disease Diet
> Liver Disease in Dogs | Treatment Options which is one which says restrict protein.
> 
> From my understanding it very much depends on the "type" of problem.
> 
> My recommendation is to look at something canineliver-d yahoo group and ask specific questions in a support group which has detailed knowledge.


Thank you so much, I think I am jumping the gun and I shouldn't really look in to changing her food until I know what it is - I fear I might do more harm than good. Your research has really helped 

And SixStar, re looking what I've asked I wouldn't expect you to! It would of been extremely difficult for you to recommend such foods without knowing the specific problem.

She is fine in herself though - no ill symptoms as such, just a sudden change in behaviour becoming very dog reactive which prompted me to get her tested.

On a separate note, can I feed frozen complete, such as wolf tucker, without worrying about them only being few meat sources and sticking to chicken (and of course bones) ? My ever so fussy Greyhound has favoured this type of raw!

Thanks again xx


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## BadgerandMissy

had a quick look around and petplanet seem to have some very good offers on just now but i can't decide if i should go for TOTW or Applaws.

Applaws £30 for 12.5kgs seems like a bargain (33% off), i was paying more than that for Arden Grange (£22 for 7.5kg)
Applaws Dog Food for Sale

TOTW wetlands (at very bottom) is 50% off, only £15.99 for 6.8kgs,
Taste of the Wild Dog Food for Sale

so they both work out about the same price, and seem like a very good deal so any ideas on which to try? i'm leaning towards Applaws i think.

Also, the Applaws light is £36, do you think it's better to get the light, is it better than the normal? I have 2 Jack Russels.


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## Pindonkey

BadgerandMissy said:


> had a quick look around and petplanet seem to have some very good offers on just now but i can't decide if i should go for TOTW or Applaws.
> 
> Applaws £30 for 12.5kgs seems like a bargain (33% off), i was paying more than that for Arden Grange (£22 for 7.5kg)
> Applaws Dog Food for Sale
> 
> TOTW wetlands (at very bottom) is 50% off, only £15.99 for 6.8kgs,
> Taste of the Wild Dog Food for Sale
> 
> so they both work out about the same price, and seem like a very good deal so any ideas on which to try? i'm leaning towards Applaws i think.
> 
> Also, the Applaws light is £36, do you think it's better to get the light, is it better than the normal? I have 2 Jack Russels.


I have fed the normal applaws before. Very good food,but my dog did put a little weight on when switched to it but thats only because its much more rich than other foods,other than that the food is amazing! 
(i now feed raw)

Taste of the wild is good food,you can't fault them on ingredients but the company who makes it,Diamond petfoods,have a horrible history with food recalls. As far as i know they have had 13 since 2007! 13! That is way too much for my liking and one happened just recently too,so to me it suggests that they cannot or do not know how to prevent these recalls happening. 
Personally i don't think its worth the risk to feed TOTW.

So i would recommend applaws over TOTW. I now use applaws as treats.


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## SixStar

BadgerandMissy said:


> had a quick look around and petplanet seem to have some very good offers on just now but i can't decide if i should go for TOTW or Applaws.
> 
> Applaws £30 for 12.5kgs seems like a bargain (33% off), i was paying more than that for Arden Grange (£22 for 7.5kg)
> Applaws Dog Food for Sale
> 
> TOTW wetlands (at very bottom) is 50% off, only £15.99 for 6.8kgs,
> Taste of the Wild Dog Food for Sale
> 
> so they both work out about the same price, and seem like a very good deal so any ideas on which to try? i'm leaning towards Applaws i think.
> 
> Also, the Applaws light is £36, do you think it's better to get the light, is it better than the normal? I have 2 Jack Russels.


There is honestly very little difference, quality wise, between Taste of the Wild and Applaws - they're both fantastic kibbles. You might like to go with the one that is cheapest at it's normal retail price though, since it won't always be on offer?

There is no need for the light version unless your dogs are overweight or very inactive. 

Also - thanks for the heads up on the TOTW for £15.99 - I always like to keep a bag of kibble in the cupboard for treats and Kongs, and that's a fantastic price - off to order :thumbup:


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## xxxnickixxx

at the moment my dogs are on TOTW from zoopluss was thinking if to give them a change or get another of the TOTW they been haveing i like how you feed less so if i could find one where you feed less like TOTW


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## Elizabetty

Any opinions on Bob & Lush?


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## SixStar

Elizabetty said:


> Any opinions on Bob & Lush?


It's already listed somewhere if you run a thread search for it


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## kidsmum

Hi, I have been feeding my 12 week old cocker spaniel fish 4 puppies, he was weaned onto this so has never had his food changed, however since having him we have had loads of problems with him getting diarrhoea and being sick. At the beginning they thought he may have a blockage but this has pretty much been ruled out now, he has been on antibiotics twice and within a few days of stopping them he starts with diarrhoea again. Having been back to the vets today for yet more antibiotics he is sending a poo sample off to check for anything, he has now mentioned that we might need to change his food as that could be the problem. He has mentioned iams which doesn't look very good and I am reluctant to move him from a good food to one that doesn't seem to be great, so any advice on whether this sounds like a food problem or some other good quality food that I could try if he says I should change would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks.


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## macster

HI, just read your post. Iams is NOT that good a food, you only need to look at the ingredients. For a great quality food at a very good price try the Simpsons Puppy Salmon & Potato (45% salmon) no grain or cereal , for about £36 for a 12kg bag you can't go wrong, the nearest rival is Braking Heads but for about £12 more. Hope that helps. Where a bouts in the UK do you live? Shane


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## cabot

Can anyone recommend an above average to premium dry dog food for a 55kg giant breed. He has been fed on Iams giant breed all his life but is becoming more fussy the older he gets. I would feed him fillet steak if i could afford it. He likes chicken and rice in the Iams brand but recently i have been having to mix it with wet food to make it more interesting. It has got to the stage he eats his sisters puppy food before touching his own which is a smaller kibble. Any recommendations for him. I have looked at Skinners but dont know anyone who uses it . He is 18 months old.


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## hazel pritchard

I notice that Autarky is a Red food, both my dogs are fed this, 1 dog a small x breed other is a Lurcher, when they have been to the vets for check ups the vet has told me i have 2 very healthy dogs, last Sept my small dog had to have major spine op, the vet at the referral vet hospital also told me he is a very healthy/fit dog for almost 7 yrs old.


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## RichardJordan

Cabot,

If money was no object then I'd opt for any of the 'green' items on the food list. Applaws, Acana, Orijen, etc.

But like most dog owners we have to budget and buy the best we can afford.

For a medium to good quality dry food at a good price I'd consider
Purina Pro Plan Adult Robust....as you have a big dog.

VioVet have a deal on 14kg +2.5kg Free:
Purina Pro Plan Large Breed Robust Chicken & Rice Dry Dog Food

My friends dogs do really well on Barking Heads. Worth considering too.
I saw a dog on Sunday who looked in fantastic condition on Burns.


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## toffee44

You will prob find that a reall high end food like acana or orijen will do you better in the long run, and I wouldn't touch anything by purina!! Mainly as with good kibble you feed less although the bag costs more.


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## RachRubyx

Hello I am really confused about what to feed my poor dog. There is so many choices and alot of them are similar but just personal choices. Now she had samples from skinners, csj and burns. She doesn't like csj so that no go. Skinners she liked duck and rice and easy on the pocket. However not tried her on burns. But am looking at the simpsons dry food that everyone is raving about.

In a couple of months am going to order a big bag 15kg for her of a 'green food' thinking of either Eden or MWH (New country mix one) or even Simpsons 80/20.
But still umming and arring between them lot lol.

But right now I just need a 2kg bag of food that she will like to get her through march really. So its a toss up between Skinners duck and Rice, Burns Duck and Rice sensitive or Simpsons Grain free Duck and Potatoe or Chicken and Potatoe. 
Which of these is better, skinners is the cheapest of the lot and simspons is most expensive I think.

Also I found a website that is doing a special offer on Applaws Senior for £6 free delievery. Is Senior ok for a adult dog? She is slightly overweight. She weighs 8.4kg and i'd like her to weigh around 7 within a year. Upped exercise and lowered portions but is to much protein a bad thing? She has epilepsy and I heard that to much protein isnt good for them.

Think I posted before but didnt get an answer


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## [email protected]

Hi RachRubyX......think I mentioned fish4dogs diets on your other thread posted...you seem to be working your way through the samples from various companies so you might as well ask them for one too? When it comes to pet food, the majority of the time, you do get what you pay for so the more expensive are going to have the far better quality ingredients in. There will be a sticky about raw feeding on this forum too as quite a few people do this successfully....I dont as its just not convenient for me and I have a dog with a red meat allergy so its easier for me to stick with the fish4dogs diets and treats. Dont worry about protein levels unless you're feeding a crap source of protein which is harder to digest i.e. red meat rather than white meat or fish.


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## fluke13

What do you guys think of the Skinner puppy food?
Vet told me to get a food with a good quality high ratio of protein for my growing pup.


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## SixStar

This is the old Index, could I point you to the Updated Index, which is stickied here - http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/255727-updated-dry-dog-food-index.html


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## Kennelgate

Wow!

Great resource - thanks for taking the effort to create this.

I've got a degree in Veterinary Medicine and Science, and I work as a pet nutritionist. I agree with all your categories!

Can I suggest a couple of additions?

- Collards Salmon and Potato
- Collards Turkey and Rice

It would also be great if you could include the other varieties of Orijen, as I know the 6 fish is the most expensive (the same with Taste of the Wild). I appreciate this is a time consuming task, so it may take you a while!!!

Best wishes


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## dodger99

RichardJordan said:


> Cabot,
> 
> If money was no object then I'd opt for any of the 'green' items on the food list. Applaws, Acana, Orijen, etc.
> 
> But like most dog owners we have to budget and buy the best we can afford.
> 
> For a medium to good quality dry food at a good price I'd consider
> Purina Pro Plan Adult Robust....as you have a big dog.
> 
> VioVet have a deal on 14kg +2.5kg Free:
> Purina Pro Plan Large Breed Robust Chicken & Rice Dry Dog Food
> 
> My friends dogs do really well on Barking Heads. Worth considering too.
> I saw a dog on Sunday who looked in fantastic condition on Burns.


Purina proplan is awful dog food, there are far better available for the same if not cheaper price. try looking through this website Dog Food Reviews - 1 Star Dry Dog Food - Powered by ReviewPost


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## LaurenC

Hi ,

What do you think of applaws large breed puppy food and/or Canagan Large breed dog food free run chicken.

I have a 5 month old labradoodle and she had been tried on both foods and both seem to be ok but I notice her stools are a bit more frequent when using canagan. Is this because it is an ‘all life stages’ food and not puppy? Also, I noticed the calcium and phosphorus levels are higher in canagan than applaws and I read some places that calcium levels should be no higher than 1.5 for a puppy and canagan is 1.8, is this ok? As I really like the food but don’t want to keep her on it if it’s not suitable nutrients.

Also , one final question. Does anyone know if devoted premium puppy dry food is suitable for large breeds e.g. labradoodles as it doesn’t state on their website! The main worry about that company is that I noticed there calories were 3920 per kg making the calcium level 3.5mg per 100g which I think is a lot. 

Thanks for your help!!


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