# Ragdolls - Lilac & Chocolate



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Hi 

I wondered if anyone could advise me of any problems I may have if I was thinking of buying a kitten from a Lilac/Chocolate dad ?

I wondered if anyone knew of any problems with studding them ?

Many thanks


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I don't quite understand the question (heavy night last night!lol) - do you mean what will the kitten carry? Stud wise the different colours all are the same stud wise - as long as there is an appropriate hole all is well! Or are you thinking of buying a boy?


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I was chatting with someone about a kitten, the dad has recently been imported from somewhere (I also had a heavy work night out last night).

She said I may find I have problems with studding the female we were talking about as many traditional ragdoll ...people GCCF will not let her advertise kittens (kitten is registered and on active though) and I think she has come across some reluctance regarding mating the kittens due to their colours. Possibly because they are not traditional ?. (sorry head a bit stuffy) 

Dad has won many shows but she mentioned something about the colour not being accepted with many breeders. I just wondered if anyone could shed any light on this? Its a girl. She said I may have difficulty finding a stud, due to the colours.

Thanks


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Cetainly I don't have that problem in the birman world so far - nor heard abot it. Are lilacs and chocolates new colours for ragdolls? If I were you I would either ring a few stud owners and ask if they would potentially take this girl to stud and if they would refuse a girl on grounds of colour. If the answer is that they would refuse then walk away from this kitten you don't want a girl you can't stud.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

hmmm we need a ragdoll breeder to help answer this, i will see if i can find one, lol, But as said, i would certainly ask around the stud owners,


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

According to the British Ragdoll Cat Club ( The British Ragdoll Cat Club - Show Guide ) all colours and patterns are accepted at championship level so I can not see anything from that why some colours would be less desirable. Unless its like in the siamese were because the original siamese were seal, you get some breeders (very few) who refuse to entertain the other colours/patterns, and will only work with pure seal pedigrees - not good as those nowaday would be few and far between and no doubt highly inbred.

You also get some weird theories from some people working with a particular colour who refuse to entertain other colours as they claim it ruins whatever colour it is they are trying to work with. Thats not true either, but you often hear wild assumptions bandied about as fact.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Looking at some other ragdoll sites, they state that lilacs and chocolates are rare, so maybe thats what was meant, that if you wanted to breed lilacs and chocolates, you would have trouble finding a stud that could give you them.


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## rottiesloveragdolls (Nov 2, 2007)

colliemerles said:


> hmmm we need a ragdoll breeder to help answer this, i will see if i can find one, lol, But as said, i would certainly ask around the stud owners,


aww bless ya Collie thanx for the pm 

*I have a Lilac Bi Tabby Stub boy  hes in my pictures (Bailey) he mates with my girls and i get some beautiful babies from him, 
Most people have a preference to colours but i dont 
So you are thinking of getting a Lilac girl on Active, but people have said not too as you wont find a stud for her am i right? or have i read this all wrong  you dont get many Chocolate Lilac or Cream colour point ragdolls they are harder to come by  *


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

There has been a huge debate for many years about whether there is still chocolate/lilac in the Ragdolls in the UK. There has been an outcross programme going on with a few breeders over recent years to try to reintroduce the lilac/chocolate but it is still ongoing so far as I am aware. I think if you were thinking of specifically wanting a chocolate or lilac then just to be sure, because these colours are so rare in this country, I would get it DNA tested - which I believe isn't too expensive (possibly around £25) (I think you send for a kit, take a swab and send it off and a couple of weeks later get the result).

I believe there are a couple of breeders who have imported some lilacs/chocolates. I must admit when I look on some of the international websites of breeders with "lilacs" or "chocolates" some just look like a slightly paler seal or blue rather than what I would class as lilac or choc.

I don't think you will necessarily have any more of a problem finding a stud willing to take the cat but as to whether you would get any choc/lilacs from the mating ...? You would have to ask the prospective stud owner to check over the pedigrees in any case.

There has been a very long but I think educational debate on The Definitive Guide Forum about the chocolate/lilac - 
http://definitiveguide2ragdolls.myfreeforum.org/Chocolate_Lilac_debate_about31.html
I hope you don't lose the will to live before you reach the end of it... Personally I will stick with the seals and blues!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I just looked all this up - very interesting. Closing off the option to outcross (though I understand it was briefly brought back) means that if you lose a colour, you lose it and that's that.

So, your girl will carry chocolate. The difficulty is going to be finding a stud for her that carries chocolate - a very close mating is likely to be your only option if you want chocolate or lilac kittens.

On the other hand, presumably chocolate and lilac kittens are like gold dust and will command a higher price.

I agree, make sure Dad really is chocolate or lilac first, if that is important to you. 

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Ah, hang on, I have it. This boy is an import. Perhaps he has been outcrossed at some point to some other breed which is acceptable in foreign registries but not in the GCCF. That would cause difficulty. Have you asked if he is GCCF registered and is so on which register? If it's reference register you need to know why.

I bet that's it.

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Hi everyone, thank for your answers.

Yes, this guy has been shipped over, he is on the GCCF Register and any kitten I may buy will be on the active register.

I was advised that because Dad has liliac I may have problems breeding any potential girl as some breeders prefer to stick with the blues and seals.

I think this is it? Also he has balinse? in him which she explained was just a longer haired version of siamese (looks shorter when I google them) which is in the ragdoll from the start anyway. I am having their papers emailed to me to look over. He is definitely registered as a ragdoll. 

After seeing the kittens I am very very impressed. They are stunning. Tabby mitted female, they are the same age as mine and look 3 weeks older, they are flufflier, larger. etc. Just stunning.

No solid decsion made as yet though. I need to read through your link CB.

I am not fussed about liliac or chocolate kittens. I love them all. I would just like a REGISTERED ACTIVE female. This one was very very lovely. I am smitten.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

all sounds very interesting, keep us updated what you decide,


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> all sounds very interesting, keep us updated what you decide,


Oh yes I will. I am very excited. I love kittens and the dad is a stunner. beautiful! The timing would fit in nicely for when I have all Mistys litter going. That will be a sad time. Nice homes though.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

look forward to seeing a picture if you go ahead with it, good luck,xxx


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

In reference to your earlier problems with your unregistered girl I am sure you do not want to be in trouble again. 

One - make doubly sure she is not on the Reference, Experimental or Supplementary registers with the GCCF. She needs to be on the Full register. 
Two - you are unlikely to get Lilac or Chocolate kittens from matings to normal coloured boys. 
Three - your kittens could be carriers of Chocolate or dilute, something other breeders may not wish to buy into. I am sure you would not be thinking of selling breeding cats just now but it is something to think about in the future and your line may end up not being popular because of this Lilac dad lurking.
Four - you need to be very certain that you can find people near to you who are willing to let her come to stud otherwise she is essentially worthless to you and will turn out to be another pet I am afraid.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

There are four different GCCF registers. You need to know which one the girl is on. If she is on the reference register she cannot be shown and (depending on what is in the pedigree) it is possible that there may be "no progression" which means the progeny will never be regarded as ragdolls no matter how many generations you go.

Supplementary register and experimental register do not matter, the breed itself is championship status and you will be able to show a cat of this colour regardless of whether she is on the full, supplementary or experimental register. It is reference register that is the issue for you.

I just looked up the registration policy which was valid from 2002 - the present ones are not on the GCCF site at the moment so I cannot check this is the latest one, but balinese is not a permitted outcross for the ragdoll (goodness knows why it isn't, but it isn't). That means reference register and no progression. The only possible exception to that would be if the balinese was so far back that it didn't show on the certified pedigree the GCCF would have wanted in order to register the cat. However, with such an outcross the registration certificate would not mention ragdoll or even ragdoll type.

The bottom line is that you need a copy of Dad's pedigree and of his registration certificate before proceeding with this purchase. If the breeder is genuine I am sure she will let you have one. Alternatively perhaps you could register with TICA instead?

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Thanks very much for your replies.

I read the link ChinaBlue gave last night and it makes very interesting reading.

I will check Dads Pedigree thoroughly. He is very stunning but I need to see his past. The owner is with GCCF and TBRC and the progressive.

I would only be selling kittens and not very often but I realise I need to look into any stud problems I may have in future.

I think Balinese is way back in Dad Pedigree as he won a show recently, possibly in Fife but I could be talking nonsense, he is also going to the show I am attending in Edinburgh.

The kittens do look different. Larger. Different eye colour. The girl I was hoping to buy blue/cream mitted, I will wait for the pedigree and have that checked out.

I have emailed 2 people in Scotland regarding stud services so will ses what they say.

Thanks again for all your help.

I forgot to say, this lady did not all this out until she attened a Seminar for Breeding held by GCCF. She also told me that although she is down as a registered breeder with TBRCC they do not allow her to advertise her kittens on the site.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Patriarca Reggae

I found this for him.

Can anyone advise if this looks good or not good.
Many thanks for your help.

I need to make my decision this week as I have another girl I am interested in, I don't wish to have people waiting etc.

I have also seen pics on him when he was in Spain. He is HUGE now, very HUGE. He carries liliac but is blue.

Why does this have to be so confusing, or perhaps I confuse myself.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

That's one Breeder up here willing to allow me use her 2 studs. Carrying chocllate and liliac. ChinaBlue has very kindly gave me people to contact so I have done this and will await replies before making any rash decisions.

I do like the tabby mitted, very cute and sweet etc.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

That all sounds good then - now you just need to check she isn't on the reference register. When you say 'different eye color' do you mean a deeper shade of blue? Got any pics?


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

spid said:


> That all sounds good then - now you just need to check she isn't on the reference register. When you say 'different eye color' do you mean a deeper shade of blue? Got any pics?


I don't know about the eye colour. I think it may be because is quite white just now and has the striking white around they eyes, this could have made them look different. Very adorable.

I have a picture of one of them in my albums but the one I am looking at is more white. She is having her 1st inoculations this week. Mine had theirs last week and my vet is putting my unregistered raggies on his website! He thought they were lovely. He gave me 14% off too, which was nice and free pet plan (6 weeks) and voucher for each kitten for free Royal canin food.

Sorry I am rambling........


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

hahaha thats ok, you keep rambling lol, its interesting ramble, lol,


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

What's the breed standard for eye colour? - I know for Birmans the deeper the blue the better. 

Nice vet! Hope mine is a s generous when I take them it - but I only have the two.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Vet gave me 15% off not 14% that's just silly.  and if the owners take their cats to him he giving them all 10% off. Very nice man. 

Yes they were deeper blue eyes. Very striking. I thought mine were striking but theses were more-so. Possibly. Not mine as in mine but as in my cats. 

They were so much chunkier too. very chunky. If I do take this girl I feel I may hyperventilate by the time I actually get her!!!

She is a bit like yours one colliemeres, expect she is a totally different breed and eye colour.  Ha!


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

spid said:


> What's the breed standard for eye colour? - I know for Birmans the deeper the blue the better.
> 
> Nice vet! Hope mine is a s generous when I take them it - but I only have the two.


Spid, I think mine only had the idea when I started talking about getting another cat and telling him how excited I was. let your vet know you will be breeding and regularlyusing them. I am sure they will offer something. It's all business for them. I would ask. I just didn't ask as I was in a very low mood regarding the non-registration at the time.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Isn't is amazing that this thread has had 244 view but only 26 replies.

Or is it just me who finds that fascinating ?

I wonder what the interest is. Ragdolls. Colours or something random.


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

Our vet gives us 10% discount on the kitten vaccs - but I should think so as with all our cats over the past 13 years I think we have single handley paid for their refurbishment.....lol!

Yes with the Raggies the deeper blue eye colour the better.


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi Mellowma,

I know just the kittens you're speaking of - I'm getting one myself! As I understand it, various Ragdoll clubs don't recognise Choc/lilac as they have been produced by using unrecognised outcrosses - ie Balinese isn't a permitted outcross for the Ragdoll. However, the GCCF still recognises these ragdolls and as far as I know, it's just these few particular clubs being pedantic. The GGCF are happy as long as the cat in question has a 5 gen pedigree without this "outcross" in the last 5 generations.

The daddy of these kittens is simply stunning - a true credit to the ragdoll breed ... anyone accusing this cat of not being a "proper" ragdoll is, IMO, jealous. 

The ragdoll IS a man made breed ... who's to say the balinese wasn't part of the foundation cats of the breed? No body knows for sure what cats Ann Baker used when she started her breeding programme. 

Feel free to PM me!

Jxx


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

Mellowma is just being very cautious and rightly so as she unfortunately was the victim of a byb with her last cat. She is obviously doing her homework and research this time around. I am sure the kits are stunning and it seems the breeder has been very good about this and upfront about things. However as Mellowma is looking for a breeding girl which she will obviously then want to take out to stud she needs to know this time around she is not going to have any problems finding a stud owner willing to take the cat so you can understand her concerns.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

sootisox said:


> Hi Mellowma,
> 
> I know just the kittens you're speaking of - I'm getting one myself! As I understand it, various Ragdoll clubs don't recognise Choc/lilac as they have been produced by using unrecognised outcrosses - ie Balinese isn't a permitted outcross for the Ragdoll. However, the GCCF still recognises these ragdolls and as far as I know, it's just these few particular clubs being pedantic. The GGCF are happy as long as the cat in question has a 5 gen pedigree without this "outcross" in the last 5 generations.
> 
> ...


Yes he was very lovely. There was some difference in his face but he is very lovely. The kittens are also lovely. Nice kittens. Nice lady.

Unfortunately I have been made an offer I cannot refuse on another cat, so perhaps another time 

Regarding the Balinese, it was stated in 2002 that Balinese was not a permitted outcross, unfortunately the GCCF database (apparently) only goes back 5 generations so yes, some cats could have it and GCCF can do very little, it would seem to prevent it.

Thanks for your advice anyway.  Enjoy your kitten.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

hi Mellowma looking at the kitten picture in your albums his/her eye colour is def not white its a blue all beit a very pale blue, the only eye colour accepted in the ragdoll breed is blue so any other colour would be considered a serious fault.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

raggs said:


> hi Mellowma looking at the kitten picture in your albums his/her eye colour is def not white its a blue all beit a very pale blue, the only eye colour accepted in the ragdoll breed is blue so any other colour would be considered a serious fault.


Hi Raggs,

The kitten in my albums is the sister of the kitten I was hoping to buy. The kittens eyes are different from my kittens eyes. Have a look in my most recent folder of kittens and I have a girl in there, she has very lovely eye colour.

The kitten I am getting a blue mitted girl, she is very lovely, nice even mitts, no blobs on her legs, nice eyes, unfortunately I only have her picture on my phone so cannot show you her, yet!

She is very lovely.

The kittens I was referring to on here had lovely white bits round her eyes, her eye colour was not as strong as Mistys kittens. Nice though, very nice indeed.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

tabbies have white 'specatcles' around their eyes, pinky nose leather, white 'butterfly' under nose on chin, and white rims to ears - at least birmans do - I'm assuming ragdolls get all these traits as well.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

spid said:


> tabbies have white 'specatcles' around their eyes, pinky nose leather, white 'butterfly' under nose on chin, and white rims to ears - at least birmans do - I'm assuming ragdolls get all these traits as well.


Yes, this little girl had the bits on her ears too. Beautiful.


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