# How many litters are acceptable ??



## Guest

How many litters are acceptable from one Breeder per year that owns several bitches either same breed or different breeds ?

How many is too many and how many before they are on par with a puppy farm not by way of poor conditions etc but by the amount of pups that are been churned out ?

Thoughts ?


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## Guest

Difficult one, Sally! My own personal opinion is that whether or not someone is puppy farming is a measure of quality, rather than quantity.

For example, breeder no 1 has several bitches who are allowed only two or three litters during their breeding life. This breeder produces several litters per year, but does it ethically and safely, with the appropriate health checks in place, cares deeply for the bitches even when they have retired from breeding, ensures the pups go to good homes, and provides life-time support and aftercare to the buyers. I would not class this as puppy farming.

Breeder no 2 has one or two bitches, not necessarily pedigree, and breeds indiscriminately, with no regard for health issues, sells the pups with no regard for anything other than the money they can get for them, breeds from the bitches every season and then gets rid of them as soon as they can no longer breed. I would say this is puppy farming.

And of course, there is the breeder no 3 who does the same as the second breeder but with several bitches - definitely a puppy farmer!


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## Dennyboy

Depends on how expensive that new car is   lol

Seriously,dont agree with breeding for the sake of it,hey i got a girl dog and a boy one hey look i'll have some pups  pups were relitively easy to sell,so they go into it with more bitches,churn them out with no regard to the standard or health.

If someone had two or three bitches,has one or two pups from first bitch,not the right sex,you want a boy she has two girls  then yes i agree on a second maybe third litter.

Wouldn't agree on more than 3 litters in a bitch's lifetime,obviously there is exceptional circumstances.
If you dont get what you want in the first two or three litters then you aint going to get it,unless of course she is only giving you the one sex...

With the amount being bred in our breed,i cant understand the need to have so many litters.

Unless you are a full time breeder and have spent years researching your breeds,i dont understand the ads that have 6 or 7 very different breeds.

I agree with Spellweavers post.


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## Guest

Spellweaver I like been difficult 

Thanks both for your replies  I agree with you both 

So what about Breeders that do have pedigrees,register with the KC,Health Test but still churn out litter after litter ?


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## Guest

Depends on whether or not they are looking after their bitches properly, not having more than two or three litters per bitch, are looking after bitches when they have stopped breeding, are homing pups carefully and supporting the new owners. If they are doing all that plus the necessary health tests, I probably would not class them as puppy farmers. If they aren't, then pedigree or no, KC Reg or not, they are puppy farmers in my book.


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## tashi

We have had more litters this year than we have had since we moved here 9 yrs ago for the simple reason that the springer bitch was almost 8 and although I had retired her 2 yrs ago the person that bred her had lost her valuable line after 40 yrs and the only way to 'get' it back was to have a pup off my bitch, the golden bitch would have been too old for a first litter if we had left her as she only comes in season every 10 months and hopefully the welsh terrier bitch will be in whelp as we want to get a pup better than her for showing her pedigree is fab but she herself is just a little on the small side and she doesnt like showing


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## Guest

Breed clubs, KC breeding regulations etc all seem to have differenct guide lines here, and it is very confusing
Think the KC say 6 litters (feel free to correct me)
Personally - I do not think a bitch should be breed until she is 2 years old - and then I would say three litters - MAX - these are my opionions - laugh at me if you like but it I ever breed that is the max I would ever let my bitch have.
regardsSue


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## Guest

DoubleTrouble said:


> Breed clubs, KC breeding regulations etc all seem to have differenct guide lines here, and it is very confusing
> Think the KC say 6 litters (feel free to correct me)
> Personally - I do not think a bitch should be breed until she is 2 years old - and then I would say three litters - MAX - these are my opionions - laugh at me if you like but it I ever breed that is the max I would ever let my bitch have.
> regardsSue


Sounds about right to me! 

I agree with everything else that's been posted so far.


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## tashi

DoubleTrouble said:


> Breed clubs, KC breeding regulations etc all seem to have differenct guide lines here, and it is very confusing
> Think the KC say 6 litters (feel free to correct me)
> Personally - I do not think a bitch should be breed until she is 2 years old - and then I would say three litters - MAX - these are my opionions - laugh at me if you like but it I ever breed that is the max I would ever let my bitch have.
> regardsSue


ours dont even have 3 on times as the goldens can have big litters so we go on the number of pups they have raised my parents had one that had two litters of 15 she was never bred from again and our vet (old time) reckons on 18 months or the third season and we dont normally have a litter from a bitch after the age of 6


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## Guest

tashi said:


> ours dont even have 3 on times as the goldens can have big litters so we go on the number of pups they have raised my parents had one that had two litters of 15 she was never bred from again and our vet (old time) reckons on 18 months or the third season and we dont normally have a litter from a bitch after the age of 6


I was speaking to a dobe owner last week who only had one litter - she produced 17 pups! I only wish that everyone breeding would follow your example! 
regards
Sue


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## cav

My dog had one pup in her last litter ive missed a season and will try her as soon as she comes in season and this will be her last litter,homes waiting,health checks,kc reg-but my dog is a pet not a breeding machine.
I think 2-3 littersbut that is just me as im not a big breeder.


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## Guest

cavrooney said:


> My dog had one pup in her last litter ive missed a season and will try her as soon as she comes in season and this will be her last litter,homes waiting,health checks,kc reg-but my dog is a pet not a breeding machine.
> I think 2-3 littersbut that is just me as im not a big breeder.


That is what I said in my post - just wish every one had our morals! and to add - I would only ever consider buying a dog from someone such as yourself - who was responsible in the amount of litters they intended breeding.
regards
sue
add - not just our meaning you and I - there are many more on here who have indicated the same!!! sorry


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## cav

DoubleTrouble said:


> That is what I said in my post - just wish every one had our morals! and to add - I would only ever consider buying a dog from someone such as yourself - who was responsible in the amount of litters they intended breeding.
> regards
> sue
> add - not just our meaning you and I - there are many more on here who have indicated the same!!! sorry


thanks i do try to do my best with my dogs and would never over breed a poor dog i think it is cruel.


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## wooliewoo

I know someone who has several breeds,(all toy) at the moment she has a litter of 4 who are 5 weeks, she has another litter due nxt week and another due the week after. Now i'd like to know how she copes with all of them??? The lady in question also has 2 children under the age of 3. Sorry but i smell a rat somewhere as the bitches are all of an age where it wouldnt hurt to skip a season so why would you plan to have 3 litters together. Oh just to add these pups go for £1000 + each.
Could a "multi" breeder set me right and tell me the secret..............i struggled with 1 litter of 7 to give the time & attention they all needed and demands of mum Do you develop super powers or is it not as bad as it looks


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## raindog

For me it is not so much about numbers of litters (although obviously that is an issue too) as about the motivation for breeding. If the motivation is purely or primarily financial, then, for me, the difference between a puppy farmer and a "hobby" breeder is purely one of degree.

IMHO, as far as individual bitches is concerned, I think two litters is the maximum any breeder should expect, with a gap of at least a year between litters. No bitch should be bred before the age of two.

Mick


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## Guest

Thanks everyone for your answers 

Our breed club recommends not breeding under 18 months old,
We were planning on breeding from our bitch this october,in the hope that she would have produced something special for us for the ring.She would have been 2 yrs 4 months and a nice age I think for a first litter,if she had of produced what we were hoping for we had planned on having her spayed,sadly for us and her this was never mean't to be and she was spayed in April  

I just can't my my head around Breeders that think it's ok to just breed and breed and churn out litter after litter,another thing that irritates me too is those that own stud dogs and allow them to cover any bitch,whether or not they are breed standard.Surely they have to take some responsiblity too and the stud fee should be the last consideration.


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## zoeybeau

We have had 2 litters close together this year, but wont have no-more, no-one devlopes super powers, one bitch was a terrible mom, she wouldnt clean or feed pups so it had to be done in shifts by us, we brought them into the world, so there survival was down to us, we health test our dogs, (and choose not to advertise the results as 3 years back we was victims of people using or paperwork and untill the IKC let us know someone was trying to register a litter with our paperwork we would never have knew nothing about it, the consiquences were huge as a result)I have had one accidental litter and have gotten no amount of aggro by jobs worths thinking they are the be all and end all of the dog breeding world, we have got, momma and daughter and grandfather and father and neice and half sister, and just kept a dog pup, breeding to keep something for your selve is fine but all the other puppies need homes, all my babies are in great homes, i have only ever had to take a couple back and one of them werent even mine, I think if you do your homework, health test, can look after your dogs and give them all they need, can find great homes for them, can afford vet, and feed bills then yes that is ok, but i would never have more than 3 litters from any said bitch, or breed after 6 years old, none of my girls have had more than 2 litters, and 6 by the kc is a bit much to be honest imo, unless it is a new line or a old line needing preserving, But that is just my opinion.

EDITED to say we have 9 boxers. 3 have just gone back to there old owners.


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## Dennyboy

raindog said:


> For me it is not so much about numbers of litters (although obviously that is an issue too) as about the motivation for breeding. If the motivation is purely or primarily financial, then, for me, the difference between a puppy farmer and a "hobby" breeder is purely one of degree.
> 
> IMHO, as far as individual bitches is concerned, I think two litters is the maximum any breeder should expect, with a gap of at least a year between litters. No bitch should be bred before the age of two.
> 
> Mick


I agree

Breeding should be about taking the breed forward by breeding good dog,not breeding for the sake of it or to get yourself noticed as a breeder by churning out multiple litters.

Everyone thinks their dog is best,and to them,warts and all, it is the best,this is how it should be.

Everyone has their own priorities,some it how much they can get for each pup and where they will go on holiday with it ,others,it is breeding with the standard and health of the bitch and pups,and how they can improve or get the same quality.

Make DNA and health testing compulsary.And also microchipping with breeders details listed.

If there was a education campaign,targeting pet shops etc. and everyone knew about the above maybe a lot of the rescue centres will see a slow down in their intake,but not everyone cares what goes on beyond their front door,which is understandable as the world is a cruel place.

And yes,i do poster my local pet shops,and others, often with health testing literature,i help out with our local rescue and i microchip my pups with KC number before they go.


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## cav

Dennyboy said:


> I agree
> 
> Breeding should be about taking the breed forward by breeding good dog,not breeding for the sake of it or to get yourself noticed as a breeder by churning out multiple litters.
> 
> Everyone thinks their dog is best,and to them,warts and all, it is the best,this is how it should be.
> 
> Everyone has their own priorities,some it how much they can get for each pup and where they will go on holiday with it ,others,it is breeding with the standard and health of the bitch and pups,and how they can improve or get the same quality.
> 
> Make DNA and health testing compulsary.And also microchipping with breeders details listed.
> 
> If there was a education campaign,targeting pet shops etc. and everyone knew about the above maybe a lot of the rescue centres will see a slow down in their intake,but not everyone cares what goes on beyond their front door,which is understandable as the world is a cruel place.
> 
> And yes,i do poster my local pet shops,and others, often with health testing literature,i help out with our local rescue and i microchip my pups with KC number before they go.


great post i agree

My sbt to me is perfect but i know in the ring she would not be the best but im not botherd as i only got her as a pet to-so we had her spayed it is a shame other owners dont do the same

I do breed my ckc but only if they clear of health problems,are a good example and are full kc reg-i am also endorcing my next litter=and dont churn out loads of litters

so i honestly think their are good and bad breeders about i think buyers need to do more research before buying a pup


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## Guest

Dennyboy said:


> Make DNA and health testing compulsary.And also microchipping with breeders details listed.


I really don't understand why the KC are still registering litters that are from untested parents!?! 

Btw, can you send me the posters you put up? Would like to put some up around here!


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## Jo P

sallyanne said:


> Spellweaver I like been difficult
> 
> Thanks both for your replies  I agree with you both
> 
> So what about Breeders that do have pedigrees,register with the KC,Health Test but still churn out litter after litter ?


Puppy Farmers wrapped up with a nice big bow - IMHO


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## jackson

ajshep1984 said:


> I really don't understand why the KC are still registering litters that are from untested parents!?!
> 
> )


Money. They make far mor emoney from puppy farmers and BYB's than anyone else.


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## jackson

Jo P said:


> Puppy Farmers wrapped up with a nice big bow - IMHO


I actually think it depends a lot on the breed in question, and do think there is a difference between a breeder who does this and is a puppy farmer.

For example, in my breed, there is a very high demand for puppies. If responsible, ethical breeders don't breed, then the only source of puppies is puppy farms and BYB's. Whilst I don't agree with breeding to supply the pet market as such, if good breeders don't breed, all that is left are the bad ones.

If breeders are breeding ethically, from high quality dogs, from health tested parents with good results and there not only is a demand for them, but also they are a breed that makes a good pet, then that to me makes them different to puppy farmers. I my breed, some of the most successful kennels are the most prolific, but there is a huge demand for their puppies.


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## Jo P

In a nutshell this is my opinion - PMSL - I dont usually do nutshell but I'll try cos to me this is a very emotive subject that I could loose my rag over
Jackson alot of what you say is absolutely true and I have to agree, however, in my rose tinted world I think anyone who says that their dogs are a hobby and then proceeds to make money out of them is a puppy farmer to some degree. I have heard it said from various people 'I dont make a penny from breeding, all the money I make goes on shows, travelling, feeding and keeping my dogs' - and I'm sure it does - but what about those people who dont breed yet they still keep dogs or show occasionally - how do they think their dogs are paid for - working to keep them thats how!! I chose to share my life with my dogs, I dont expect them to 'pay their way'. You get some people who have the most fantastic websites - spouting about how much their dogs are family pets and how special you would have to be to get one of their puppies - and the next news you find out they are off-loading older dogs that have been bred from by them - it actually makes me puke.


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## clueless

Jo P said:


> In a nutshell this is my opinion - PMSL - I dont usually do nutshell but I'll try cos to me this is a very emotive subject that I could loose my rag over
> Jackson alot of what you say is absolutely true and I have to agree, however, in my rose tinted world I think anyone who says that their dogs are a hobby and then proceeds to make money out of them is a puppy farmer to some degree. I have heard it said from various people 'I dont make a penny from breeding, all the money I make goes on shows, travelling, feeding and keeping my dogs' - and I'm sure it does - but what about those people who dont breed yet they still keep dogs or show occasionally - how do they think their dogs are paid for - working to keep them thats how!! I chose to share my life with my dogs, I dont expect them to 'pay their way'. You get some people who have the most fantastic websites - spouting about how much their dogs are family pets and how special you would have to be to get one of their puppies - and the next news you find out they are off-loading older dogs that have been bred from by them - it actually makes me puke.


I have stated about the expense re showing etc... But I was only giving it as an example against some people who have Pets and have never spent a penny health testing or putting any effort into getting their dogs evaluated. I answered before about why I said it, I do work to keep my dogs and work unsocial hours so that I am there for them. 
I will try and explain a bit better
In my breed I know of 2 Breeders who are asking £1000+ for pups as they have good lines behind them but unfortunately the first generation has never saw a show ring. These people boast about shows etc... but have never actually spent their time or money promoting the Breed IMO


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## jackson

Jo P said:


> In a nutshell this is my opinion - PMSL - I dont usually do nutshell but I'll try cos to me this is a very emotive subject that I could loose my rag over
> Jackson alot of what you say is absolutely true and I have to agree, however, in my rose tinted world I think anyone who says that their dogs are a hobby and then proceeds to make money out of them is a puppy farmer to some degree. I have heard it said from various people 'I dont make a penny from breeding, all the money I make goes on shows, travelling, feeding and keeping my dogs' - and I'm sure it does - but what about those people who dont breed yet they still keep dogs or show occasionally - how do they think their dogs are paid for - working to keep them thats how!! I chose to share my life with my dogs, I dont expect them to 'pay their way'. You get some people who have the most fantastic websites - spouting about how much their dogs are family pets and how special you would have to be to get one of their puppies - and the next news you find out they are off-loading older dogs that have been bred from by them - it actually makes me puke.


The people I am talking about, dogs are their entire lives, not just a hobby. I obviously don't know their personal finacial details, but they have other doggy businesses such as boarding kennels, and judge, run ringcraft and training classes etc, so their entire lives are invested into dogs. Breeding is just part of what they do, and they certainly don't appear to do it with money in mind. They care deply abotu all dogs and the breed they are in. That is what sets them apart from puppy farmers, amongst other things.


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