# So you really want to breed?



## Sleeping_Lion

Prompted by a comment on another thread, I thought I'd post and share about what I've done, and how I've gone about thinking about breeding from both Indie and Tau. 

Indie is a fabulous bitch, she is a lovely character, and I've enjoyed every minute of owning her. When I first got her, and started training for working trials, I had no idea that chocolate Labs had such a stigma attached to them, and that made me even more determined to promote them and possibly even breed my very own proven dog(s) for the future. Indie was my starting point, and she was showing a lot of promise, unlike her handler. I had her hip scored and elbow graded, and had her BVA current clear eye cert done. Unfortunately, the vet mucked up her plates and they were rejected by the BVA, and so they had to be done again, although as she'd reacted badly to the GA I asked for her to be sedated only. She didn't react much better to that tbh, and I am loathe to ever put her through operations or procedures because of this. So, Indie's hips came back 3:3, and I was devasted with her elbow grade, which was 2:1. Following lots of dodgy advice, I very nearly went ahead with her in any case, particularly with the quesitonable quality of the plates from my vets. Her eyes were clear, and I even went as far as PRA testing her, hoping that if she came back a carrier, that would make the decision easier not to breed, of course she was clear/normal. She had also, by this time, injured her cruciate in what seems to have been an awkward twist, thankfully it hasn't turned out to be a bilateral condition with her, touch wood. I had a good sized waiting list of people wanting pups, but it still didn't sit right with me, and so I took the heart breaking decision, for me, of having her spayed, and I've not regretted it since, I know it wouldn't have been right to put her through it, leaving aside all the doubts about the elbow grade results.

Move on to Tau, who is a lovely, if very soft girl. I've looked through dogs for as long as I've had her, to try and find something that I like, that has the looks, ability and the rest of it. Frustrated with the lack of available dogs that fit the bill (yes, those Labradors really are scarce when you want to find one that fits all your requirements) I have swung round from wanting to use various different types, and thinking about how that fits in with what I want for the future.

I want a dog that for me, fits the BS conformation wise, isn't too substantial, and has ability to put into the equation. I also want good temperament, and good health test results. You wouldn't think that's much to ask for, but some may be surprised. 

In the meantime, because of life stuff getting in the way, this really is the last window of opportunity for me, or should I say Tau, to have a litter. And (fingers crossed) we will be in a position to do so when she's next in season, early in 2012. 

Tau's had her hips scored, and her elbows graded, and she's also been tested for CNM. Her results are hips 0:0, elbows 0, and she's clear/normal for CNM. She is clear by parentage for PRA, but I'm testing her as her sire's results aren't on the KC database, so it wouldn't show on the paperwork for any resultant pups, she's booked in to have blood drawn tomorrow and submitted via Idexx to Optigen. She's also booked in to have her BVA current clear eye cert renewed, which will hopefully take place on Monday next week. If she fails either of those, although it's highly unlikely she will, then the theoretical litter is out of the window, and I'll have to think again.

So, we may well be having a litter on the ground, in the Spring of 2012 here, although I've spent a fortune, both in time and money researching and health testing, if it still turns out that the best thing for me would be to buy in a pup, then I may well just knock the whole idea on the head. Having said that, the dog I'm looking at, compliments Tau very nicely, and I'm quietly excited about the whole thing, she's fast asleep and couldn't care less. 

Anyway, I thought I'd post this just to show for a new starter, some of the processes and things to bear in mind. I haven't used the full array of health tests available, I've used the ones I believe need to be done, and that view may change in the future. I haven't asked how much the stud fees are, or even where they are in the country, that's immaterial, if it's the right dog, it's the right dog, and I'll just have a long journey to contemplate. 

Fingers crossed for Tau's last couple of tests, and for the future, whatever decision(s) it may hold


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## Blondie

Nice post SL! 

I hope it goes well for you, whichever way you go.

Breeding is never easy, we have had to alter our breeding program a few times and its always hard to decide what to do next. We are having a dilemma now as to how to proceed with our breeding program


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## Sleeping_Lion

Ceearott said:


> Nice post SL!
> 
> I hope it goes well for you, whichever way you go.
> 
> Breeding is never easy, we have had to alter our breeding program a few times and its always hard to decide what to do next. We are having a dilemma now as to how to proceed with our breeding program


Thanks, I just wanted to put something down to give an idea for anyone new to breeding, or contemplating it. I have been lucky in that I've found so many people with great knowledge about Labradors, and have been able to pick their brains. Swarthy's just emailed me the theoretical pedigree, which I like, it's the best so far that fits in with all my *wants* if I'm to go ahead.

I actually feel like I've let me and Tau down in not doing as much with her as I'd have liked to, gundog wise, and I have seriously, seriously thought about buying in rather than breeding. I do, however, like a lot about her, which is why I've decided to look at this possible litter, although as I said, I may yet change my mind again.

I feel like sometimes, when I'm reading posts about upcoming litters or breeding, it's a bit like de-ja-vu, watching myself before I knew enough, and taking that step just a bit too soon for actually having a litter. I've been at various stages where I've thought I knew enough, and have had advice I thought at the time was good. And my reason for posting isn't to try and blow my own trumpet, as anyone can see from my post, it's easy to make decisions you feel are right, particularly when you've got advice from people you count as more knowledgeable than you when it comes to breeding; I wanted to post something that would hopefully make anyone thinking about it, realise there may be an awful lot more to think about than just what's under your nose, it's taken me five years to make this decision, well, nearly make this decision :lol:

One thing I will say is it does weigh very heavily on my mind that I am breeding (possibly) at a time when it's not all rosy for dogs, with the economic climate the way it is, and people dumping animals in rescue all the time, and if I do feel that it's really not a good idea, then I really won't go ahead, but we'll see, I'll only know how I really feel about *that* when it's nearer the time for mating.


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## sezra

Great, informative post. It just goes to show the amount of thought and effort that should go into breeding. I think it is really exciting and I hope the breeding goes ahead.


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## Quinzell

Wow, what an interesting read! I'm not thinking about breeding at all, but from a pet dog owners pov, this really does open my eyes to what a good breeder is and how much effort/money they put in.


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## agnes2003

Now that's what I'm talking about ;-) Thank you!:


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## terencesmum

Now THIS is an interesting thread and hopefully will make some of the morons, oops, I mean "breeders" that post on here take note, who don't have a clue and then get all offended when people point out that they aren't really doing anyone a favour by mating their dog to God knows what.

I keep everything crossed for Tau and you. If everything goes to plan, there will be some gorgeous pupsters coming along for some very lucky people. *scuttles off to buy a car big enough to steal ALL Tarimoor dogs*


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## Devil-Dogz

Good luck with what ever you decide, I know just how much effort and time you have been putting in. - and no choice has come without much thought. Good luck with the rest of the results.
- I have been apart of mums breeding for a good few years now, and loved it. I know whats expected of someone when a litter is being planned, raised and sold. But the choice to allow my own girl to have a litter hasnt and still isnt coming easily. I need to make up my mind due to her age (being 4 next year!). I think I have made my mind up, depending on the rest of her tests - so next year could be a year for new experiences for us both.

Its nice to see new folk taking on a task with so much though, I have total respect. Some 'long term' breeders shall we call them, still cant be so thoughtful with such breedings.


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## swarthy

It's funny really how close our experiences mirror each others in some ways - through my own knock backs with health results  although in our case, the plates were impeccable - and the hips sh*gged  

I like your potential choice of hubbie, I love the pedigree (my own boy's dad is full brother to his dad) and think he would be a good match all round. 

He was one of the dogs on my shortlist for a second litter from Hope, but we decided not to put her through it again (she really doesn't like boys anymore  having 7 x 21oz pups might have something to do with that !!!!) - although the way she is with my youngest boy, I think she could eat him for breakfast - but he is a bit of a shmoozer 

I wish you the best of luck and hope your girls health test results come back fine - your PRA is pretty much guaranteed (make sure you get the CBP rate off Optigen - it's a significant saving) and fingers crossed for the eye test 

I promised I would have a look at the 10 generation ancestry for you - any excuse to add a few more dogs to my database (assuming they are missing)


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## Tanya1989

For a new starter too:

Its just not for me anymore :crying: far too much heartache.
Every disappointment takes away of a piece of your heart and despite the size of your heart, eventually the pieces left will only be enough to keep you alive...


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## Tollisty

Most people don't realise the amount of time that goes into planning a litter properly. And all the stress! Especially waiting for test results.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Not long back from the vets, so now just the wait for confirmation of her PRA status as clear, which I know it is in any case, but this will ensure that the status will be on any paperwork for pups. 

The owner of the stud dog has been in touch, and is more than happy if I decide to go ahead, for me to use him with Tau. I still have no idea where they are in the country, nor how much they charge for a stud fee, might get round to asking that a little nearer the time.

Completely forgot to ask the vet about pre-mate tests, so will have to ring them up and have that conversation; the vet was more than pleased with Tau's overall condition, and seems quite experienced with this breeding thing, although I won't be relying on their advice it's nice to know they're not completely uninformed as some vets are about canine reproduction. 

So now we've got her BVA eye test which is booked for Monday, and then we'll just be waiting around until she's in season, by which time I should have decided whether I'm definitely going ahead. The dog I've come across, and who compliments her pedigree nicely, is Oakglen Over The Border At Poniel, who happens to be chocolate, wouldn't have bothered me at all if he wasn't, which means all the pups will be chocolate. He worked 50 days out on various shoots including a grouse moor last year, and is successfully shown


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## Blondie

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not long back from the vets, so now just the wait for confirmation of her PRA status as clear, which I know it is in any case, but this will ensure that the status will be on any paperwork for pups.
> 
> The owner of the stud dog has been in touch, and is more than happy if I decide to go ahead, for me to use him with Tau. I still have no idea where they are in the country, nor how much they charge for a stud fee, might get round to asking that a little nearer the time.
> 
> Completely forgot to ask the vet about pre-mate tests, so will have to ring them up and have that conversation; the vet was more than pleased with Tau's overall condition, and seems quite experienced with this breeding thing, although I won't be relying on their advice it's nice to know they're not completely uninformed as some vets are about canine reproduction.
> 
> So now we've got her BVA eye test which is booked for Monday, and then we'll just be waiting around until she's in season, by which time I should have decided whether I'm definitely going ahead. The dog I've come across, and who compliments her pedigree nicely, is Oakglen Over The Border At Poniel, who happens to be chocolate, wouldn't have bothered me at all if he wasn't, which means all the pups will be chocolate. He worked 50 days out on various shoots including a grouse moor last year, and is successfully shown


Well I hope it all goes to plan for you, and you do go ahead and have little puppups running about next year, lol!

Am quite jealous actually, as we arent breeding for a while now


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## gorgeous

ooooh little chocolate lab pups for us to admire - can't wait!!! hope it all goes well!!!


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## Sleeping_Lion

Tollisty said:


> Most people don't realise the amount of time that goes into planning a litter properly. And all the stress! Especially waiting for test results.


I'm not really worried about the PRA test as I know her status is clear, so that shouldn't be anything other than clear/normal, so it's just the BVA eye test that she's not had done for a few years, as plans kept getting knocked back, but thankfully that's an instant result so it's not like we have to wait around for results to come back.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Just thought it might be interesting for those who know nowt about what the BVA eye test is all about. We have to arrive half an hour before the appointment, so that drops can be put in Tau's eyes, which dilate the pupils making it easier for the eye specialist to examine her eyes. The BVA have a list of the eye specialists on their website, they're not usually your normal vet, we have to travel a little further but not too far thankfully, up to Mirfield. The vet then checks in a darkened room with one of those eye examining thingamybobs with a bright light, for several conditions to see if there is any evidence that they're developing/developed.

The certificate below is from Tau's first BVA eye test, some years ago now, where everything was completely clear and as it should be, fingers crossed she's still the same, dogs can and do fail their eye tests in later years, this is not the same as a genetic test where the dog is guaranteed to not ever develop a condition.










And just for interest, these are her hip and elbow results, which Tau slightly nibbled


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## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The owner of the stud dog has been in touch, and is more than happy if I decide to go ahead, for me to use him with Tau. I still have no idea where they are in the country, nor how much they charge for a stud fee, might get round to asking that a little nearer the time.


Think about his kennel name, that might give you a clue as to location


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## BlueBeagle

I hope all goes well for you, whatever you decide. I have been lurking for a while and have discovered how much work good breeders put in before, during and after birth. I have never really thought about breeding personally but I am sure I couldn't stand the stress.

Strange tho, as before we moved abroad I bred my cat (with the help of a mentor). I guess being with supportive people really helps and I just don't have that here. Anyway, I look forward to reading all about it if the mating goes ahead


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## moonviolet

I'm finding this thread completely fascinating. Breeding isn't something i would personally consider, but it's so nice to see the thought processes, tests and consideration you are giving to this possible mating. If only every one took such care.

I shall be watching closely for each and every update. A huge thanks for sharing


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## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> I wish you the best of luck and hope your girls health test results come back fine - your PRA is pretty much guaranteed (make sure you get the CBP rate off Optigen - it's a significant saving) and fingers crossed for the eye test


The vets use Idexx, so it's pretty cheap anyway, even though they submit the bloods to optigen as I understand it. They must have some sort of agreement with Optigen in place, works for me 



swarthy said:


> Think about his kennel name, that might give you a clue as to location


Aha, that and the grouse moors is pointing me significantly northwards, I'm guessing haggis land


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## DoodlesRule

Lanarkshire apparently - I am nosey so googled  He is a handsome lad


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## Sleeping_Lion

DoodlesRule said:


> Lanarkshire apparently - I am nosey so googled  He is a handsome lad


Ah well, petrol costs will be fun then, never mind eh :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## DoodlesRule

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ah well, petrol costs will be fun then, never mind eh :lol: :lol: :lol:


Could be worse, at least you don't live in Cornwall !


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## Sleeping_Lion

DoodlesRule said:


> Could be worse, at least you don't live in Cornwall !


It's actually a fairly easy drive up there, not sure whether to stop over and go for two matings, I've got a friend who lives up that way but they have a few working cockers, and may not be too happy to have a bitch bang on in season land on their doorstep :lol:


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## dexter

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not long back from the vets, so now just the wait for confirmation of her PRA status as clear, which I know it is in any case, but this will ensure that the status will be on any paperwork for pups.
> 
> The owner of the stud dog has been in touch, and is more than happy if I decide to go ahead, for me to use him with Tau. I still have no idea where they are in the country, nor how much they charge for a stud fee, might get round to asking that a little nearer the time.
> 
> Completely forgot to ask the vet about pre-mate tests, so will have to ring them up and have that conversation; the vet was more than pleased with Tau's overall condition, and seems quite experienced with this breeding thing, although I won't be relying on their advice it's nice to know they're not completely uninformed as some vets are about canine reproduction.
> 
> So now we've got her BVA eye test which is booked for Monday, and then we'll just be waiting around until she's in season, by which time I should have decided whether I'm definitely going ahead. The dog I've come across, and who compliments her pedigree nicely, is Oakglen Over The Border At Poniel, who happens to be chocolate, wouldn't have bothered me at all if he wasn't, which means all the pups will be chocolate. He worked 50 days out on various shoots including a grouse moor last year, and is successfully shown


Sl good luck if you do decide to go ahead with the mating, well done for all your researching.


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## terencesmum

Where is her official certificate saying she is drop dead gorgeous? 
PS: If you're going all the way up there for a mating, I'd be happy to dogsit the other two


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## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> Now THIS is an interesting thread and hopefully will make some of the morons, oops, I mean "breeders" that post on here take note, who don't have a clue and then get all offended when people point out that they aren't really doing anyone a favour by mating their dog to God knows what.
> 
> I keep everything crossed for Tau and you. If everything goes to plan, there will be some gorgeous pupsters coming along for some very lucky people. *scuttles off to buy a car big enough to steal ALL Tarimoor dogs*


So I take it I can enrol you for puppy sitting duties, but will have to check your pockets before you leave 



dexter said:


> Sl good luck if you do decide to go ahead with the mating, well done for all your researching.


Thank you, I've been so undecided for such a long time, but looking at the dog and his pedigree, it was a bit of a eureka moment 



terencesmum said:


> Where is her official certificate saying she is drop dead gorgeous?
> PS: If you're going all the way up there for a mating, I'd be happy to dogsit the other two


Dammit!! I knew I'd missed something with Tau.........

I'd be happy to let you dogsit the other two, they certainly won't fit in your pockets :scared:


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## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So I take it I can enrol you for puppy sitting duties, but will have to check your pockets before you leave
> 
> I'd be happy to let you dogsit the other two, they certainly won't fit in your pockets :scared:


DEAL!! When shall I move in? 
Seriously, though: It would be lovely to see how it should be done. :aureola:


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## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> DEAL!! When shall I move in?
> Seriously, though: It would be lovely to see how it should be done. :aureola:


Lol, if you want to come over, you know you'd be more than welcome, should be in the new house by then and looking at the layout, Tau will be in the kitchen with her pups, the other girls will be in the utility room so they don't have to go anywhere near her to go outside. Even though they are the best of buddies, Tau's hormones will take over if she's got pups, and she may even have a grumble at me, the OH or others who *dare* to handle her youngsters, if we get that far


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## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Lol, if you want to come over, you know you'd be more than welcome, should be in the new house by then and looking at the layout, Tau will be in the kitchen with her pups, the other girls will be in the utility room so they don't have to go anywhere near her to go outside. Even though they are the best of buddies, Tau's hormones will take over if she's got pups, and she may even have a grumble at me, the OH or others who *dare* to handle her youngsters, if we get that far


Yes please! I'm happy to look on from the distance. I will have to make do cuddling Indie  What a chore...


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## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> Yes please! I'm happy to look on from the distance. I will have to make do cuddling Indie  What a chore...


Lol, Indie is such a difficult dog, honestly, why do I put up with her 

The only thing I'd say is for visiting, shoes off and wash hands for pups, and obviously Terenceless I'm afraid, just to avoid bringing in any potential nasties. But if you wanted to get hands on, then you are very welcome


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## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Lol, Indie is such a difficult dog, honestly, why do I put up with her
> 
> The only thing I'd say is for visiting, shoes off and wash hands for pups, and obviously Terenceless I'm afraid, just to avoid bringing in any potential nasties. But if you wanted to get hands on, then you are very welcome


Terenceless goes without saying.  Although, he is looking rather offended that I am happy to leave him behind :lol:
I'm happy to get hands on!
Can I ask something about "general" breeding: How does a good breeder go about getting a waiting list? Especially, if it's your first litter? And how do you vet the potential owners? I know how much you love your girls and care about dogs in general, so is it really difficult to find people "good enough" for your babies? I nearly had a heart attack handing Terence over for a weekend, I can't imagine how I'd feel having to find homes for teeny tiny babies?


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## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> Terenceless goes without saying.  Although, he is looking rather offended that I am happy to leave him behind :lol:
> I'm happy to get hands on!
> Can I ask something about "general" breeding: How does a good breeder go about getting a waiting list? Especially, if it's your first litter? And how do you vet the potential owners? I know how much you love your girls and care about dogs in general, so is it really difficult to find people "good enough" for your babies? I nearly had a heart attack handing Terence over for a weekend, I can't imagine how I'd feel having to find homes for teeny tiny babies?


Lol, poor Terence, he's really a lovely little chap 

Good question! I've had people ask to be put on a waiting list for pups from Tau, although I am guessing, since it's three years since I originally started compiling that list, that many will have gone on and found pups elsewhere, but not informed me. So I will inform those who were interested, but I'm not expecting they will have waited around for a pup. So basically, although I have a list of names of about four or five people, I'm expecting to start from scratch.

One reason for using a good stud dog, and one that matches the bitch, is to not only increase the chances of a cracking pup for me, but also, to attract good puppy buyers/owners. I *hope* that by using a dog that really is a good match for Tau, that I can get the right people interested in possibly owning a nicely bred pup, to contact me and enquire.

As for vetting, I think I'm going to have to poke people with sharp pointy things, and perhaps adminster truth serum, tbh, the two largest fears I have about going ahead are 1) putting Tau through whelping, I am very aware of the risks involved and 2) finding the right homes for pups, that I feel comfortable with.

I have a very good contract, which every puppy buyer will have explained to them in depth, and the KC endorsements will be put in place and explained. I will also have a form for contact details for potential puppy buyers, so that I can ensure I keep in touch with anyone who passes my stringent sharp pointy poking sessions. I really would like to see a pup or three worked/competed with and/or shown, it is a mating with the potential to do all of those things, quite exciting really, although daunting at the same time


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## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Lol, poor Terence, he's really a lovely little chap
> 
> Good question! I've had people ask to be put on a waiting list for pups from Tau, although I am guessing, since it's three years since I originally started compiling that list, that many will have gone on and found pups elsewhere, but not informed me. So I will inform those who were interested, but I'm not expecting they will have waited around for a pup. So basically, although I have a list of names of about four or five people, I'm expecting to start from scratch.
> 
> One reason for using a good stud dog, and one that matches the bitch, is to not only increase the chances of a cracking pup for me, but also, to attract good puppy buyers/owners. I *hope* that by using a dog that really is a good match for Tau, that I can get the right people interested in possibly owning a nicely bred pup, to contact me and enquire.
> 
> As for vetting, I think I'm going to have to poke people with sharp pointy things, and perhaps adminster truth serum, tbh, the two largest fears I have about going ahead are 1) putting Tau through whelping, I am very aware of the risks involved and 2) finding the right homes for pups, that I feel comfortable with.
> 
> I have a very good contract, which every puppy buyer will have explained to them in depth, and the KC endorsements will be put in place and explained. I will also have a form for contact details for potential puppy buyers, so that I can ensure I keep in touch with anyone who passes my stringent sharp pointy poking sessions. I really would like to see a pup or three worked/competed with and/or shown, it is a mating with the potential to do all of those things, quite exciting really, although daunting at the same time


He's a lovely little chap who hid a stinky old bit of lamb in my lovely, favourite blanket. 

To go back to "The List": If you try to find homes that work or show the pups, if it's a "first-timer", how do you know they are serious? Is that in your contract? And what does it mean to have the endorsements? If I understand it correctly, the pups won't be allowed to be bred from? Is that right? God, I sound like such an idiot


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## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> He's a lovely little chap who hid a stinky old bit of lamb in my lovely, favourite blanket.
> 
> To go back to "The List": If you try to find homes that work or show the pups, if it's a "first-timer", how do you know they are serious? Is that in your contract? And what does it mean to have the endorsements? If I understand it correctly, the pups won't be allowed to be bred from? Is that right? God, I sound like such an idiot


The endorsements for the KC basically don't allow anyone to export and register with a foreign kennel club, or register progeny in the UK, without those endorsements being lifted first.

The contract for bitches and dogs is different, it has aspects relating to health tests and proven ability. Because I believe dogs can make a bigger impact in the breeding pool overall, I have stricter criteria for dogs than bitches on the contract.

As for knowing who will be right, I haven't a foggiest, I'm hoping that I will just have enough common sense and nounce about me to wheedle out the wheat from the chaff


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## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The endorsements for the KC basically don't allow anyone to export and register with a foreign kennel club, or register progeny in the UK, without those endorsements being lifted first.
> 
> The contract for bitches and dogs is different, it has aspects relating to health tests and proven ability. Because I believe dogs can make a bigger impact in the breeding pool overall, I have stricter criteria for dogs than bitches on the contract.
> 
> As for knowing who will be right, I haven't a foggiest, I'm hoping that I will just have enough common sense and nounce about me to wheedle out the wheat from the chaff


God, so many things to take into account both for you and potential owners of the pupsters. 
Well, at least it should be crystal clear to everyone reading this, how much thought and effort goes into the whole breeding process from a proper breeder. And it should be obvious why those pups won't be £200 either. 
Fascinating stuff! :thumbup:


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## swarthy

Jo, on the subject of waiting lists - once Tau has had her eye test and you decide if you are definitely going to use this boy, then I would advise putting the information on your website with an indication of planned dates etc.

Once she is confirmed in whelp (assuming you don't have one already) despite my grumblings, I would advise getting yourself a Champdogs account for 12 months.

I will be happy to add a "puppies avaiable" link to the Labrador Health website once she has the babies and from my own website - I've been inundated with enquiries for chocolate pups of late, and really struggling to find good breeders to point people towards - there's litters on the ground - but very few chocolates, or the timings just haven't been right 

As you are not an ABS member, I think the charge for advertising on the KC website is £20 (it's free if you are and might be something worth thinking about - I am uncertain now whether they permit new breeders - the rules seem to have changed and then changed again) - 

I 'think' they are inspecting breeders before they fully grant new membership now - but it's more and more what pulls people to look at you first - so don't rule it out if new breeders are permitted. 

I've done the confident "full waiting list" thing - and then there's the horror that comes back and bites you on the backside when all of a sudden you realise it's not as solid as it originally looked and you've turned the best part of 30 people away (although have to say, my chocolate litter flew out - it was where I had blacks the momentum was slower - and then all of a sudden, after I cemented my decision to keep the black bitch, everyone was looking for black bitches and I had chocolates available ) .


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## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The endorsements for the KC basically don't allow anyone to export and register with a foreign kennel club, or register progeny in the UK, without those endorsements being lifted first.


The export restrictions don't stop owners taking the dog overseas, and in many countries, they will be permitted to the lower tier registration - and can be shown in those countries as a UK registered dog, just as any of us could take a dog overseas and show it (subject to meeting the requirements for being able to leave and re-enter the country of course).

What they can't do is have full overseas registration without the Export pedigree - once one is issued, the dog is removed from the UK database.

My girl out in France with Nicola is still registered with the UK KC - but also has French KC registration at the lower tier - because of Nic's health she had to give up showing - but had that not have happened then at some point, she would have been removed from the UK database and subject to confirmation, had full registration with the French KC.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> The contract for bitches and dogs is different, it has aspects relating to health tests and proven ability. Because I believe dogs can make a bigger impact in the breeding pool overall, I have stricter criteria for dogs than bitches on the contract.


I too have stricter requirements for lifting the endorsements off my boys. I also require that the owner finds a mentor to work with, and that for first litters with a bitch, they work with me to find a suitable stud dog.

I specifiy my tolerance on hips / elbows and require PRA testing if one parent is a carrier (although won't object to the lifting whether clear or carrier).

I do two copies of the breeding endorsements documentation - which we both sign (me and the buyer) - they get one copy and I get the other - that way there is no doubt.

To date, most of my pups have been neutered.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> As for knowing who will be right, I haven't a foggiest, I'm hoping that I will just have enough common sense and nounce about me to wheedle out the wheat from the chaff


With regards to knowing - everyone is human for no-one is infallible, but you will know - you will weed a fair few out at the enquiry stage - when people come here, they get to spend time with my older dogs before they see the pups, I find them very good judges of character and you can observe body language in how they react to the dogs - the best bit is when prospective owners are on the floor with the dogs before they've barely introduced themselves :lol: or they are on my settee with dogs draped around their necks and every other spare body part !!!!


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## terencesmum

Swarthy, can I ask re this "mentor" business? So, if someone wanted to start showing one of your pups but had no clue where to start or how to go about this, would you be happy to mentor them regarding that as well? 

PS: I think the mentoring is a brilliant idea!


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## swarthy

terencesmum said:


> Swarthy, can I ask re this "mentor" business? So, if someone wanted to start showing one of your pups but had no clue where to start or how to go about this, would you be happy to mentor them regarding that as well?
> 
> PS: I think the mentoring is a brilliant idea!


I'll be honest, whilst I keep a pup myself for showing / hopefully breeding on (subject to health results) - I don't sell my pups as show potential - and would re-direct anyone enquiring about prospective show pups to show kennels with more experience.

Having said that, if one of my puppy buyers came back to me and said they were interested in showing, after seeing the pup (ideally in the flesh) I would advise them if I felt it was worth it, and how to go about it - showing is not a cheap hobby.

I have my own mentors for both breeding and using my boys at stud, and whilst I could advise a prospective stud dog owner in terms of advising the bitch owner for health tests / pre-mating etc as I did for a friend recently, I wouldn't be comfortable yet to advise on the dynamics of stud handling and as I said, have my own mentors I can call on for help.

Luckily the dog world is small - so there are pretty much always people on hand to advise 

Yes, I would mentor someone wanting to breed from one of my bitches (providing the health tests were completed to my satisfaction) and would be keen to ensure they used a dog that best suited theri bitch - so for a first litter - they would be given a choice of dogs to use (one pet owner decided she wanted to use her mates dog, but I was not willing for this ), eventually, they had the bitch neutered as they felt the economic climate wasn't right for breeding.

I would suggest they find an experienced mentor close to them - I have a number of people I can call on for help if required - and have to say, I've also found my own vets and the Vets Now service fantastically supportive if needing general advice.

Someone once told me, no matter how many litters you have, in some ways, every one feels like your first - and now I understand where they are coming from.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Interweb connection allowing, grrrrrrr, I will try and answer a couple of the queries and say thank you.

Thank you Swarthy for the clarification re endorsements, I kind of understood how they worked, but haven't ever needed to use them, and people have trusted me with their bitches not to go against their wishes and criteria, which is nice. 

As far as contracts go, the one I've got is based on the KC ABS with a few extras written in, and yes, I do a breeder and buyers coopy  

Will do some thinking about waiting lists, and consider the various options, and take it from there, but thank you for the info, valued input into whatever I decide to do. I think the time to get anything rolling is after her BVA eye test on Monda


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## kat&molly

Just wanted to say good luck with your plans. I've learnt quite a lot since I joined this forum, it all makes for interesting reading.
If I were after a Lab [your safe I'm not] I'd approach you and your pointy stick.


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## noushka05

hope everything goes well for you SL, you really deserve it to....i hope this thread is stickied to show how breeding dogs should be done and to show the sort of breeder potential puppy buyers should be searching for.


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## Rosie Dane

This is such an interesting read! I'm ashamed to admit however, that I know nothing when it comes to breeding and would love it if someone could explain what the hip and elbow scores mean? I've seen them written like 3:3 or 2:1 but have no idea if that's bad, good or what?? Please someone, enlighten me


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## Blondie

Rosie Dane said:


> This is such an interesting read! I'm ashamed to admit however, that I know nothing when it comes to breeding and would love it if someone could explain what the hip and elbow scores mean? I've seen them written like 3:3 or 2:1 but have no idea if that's bad, good or what?? Please someone, enlighten me


Try these links -

The BVA/KC Elbow Dysplasia Scheme - The Kennel Club

The BVA/KC Hip Dysplasia Scheme - The Kennel Club


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## Rosie Dane

Thank you


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## Cockerpoo lover

Wishing you and Tau well on your new venture and sure if everything goes according to plan you will have some gorgeous pupsters.

Do you think you will cope with giving them up? that I think must be hard as so much time and effort has gone in and of course you will be like a "grandma" so wanting the best for them all.

ha ha can imagine the poor buggers being vetted by you


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## Sleeping_Lion

Rosie Dane said:


> This is such an interesting read! I'm ashamed to admit however, that I know nothing when it comes to breeding and would love it if someone could explain what the hip and elbow scores mean? I've seen them written like 3:3 or 2:1 but have no idea if that's bad, good or what?? Please someone, enlighten me


Just to expand on the links, the breed mean standard or bms for Labs is currently 15. So when you hip score, you are looking to get a score around the BMS, the lower the better and it's also best if they are nice and even. So, for example, 7:7 is better than 14:0, although still under the BMS, that one hip is a much higher score than the other, and most would wonder why this is.

The one thing that does get misunderstood a lot about the BMS is the idea that it has to be at the level of, or lower than this figure, a *mean* score is to give you an idea of the average, so a score above the BMS is perfectly acceptable, as long as it isn't significantly above the BMS. Also, you need to take the hip scores and elbow grades in context with the whole dog. If you have a top quality dog that is genetically clear for the relevant conditions, and has a hip score of 10:10, you need to weigh up whether that individual dog has enough going for them to include or exclude from a breeding programme, but not exclude them simply because their hip score is higher than the BMS alone, I hope that makes sense


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## smokeybear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just to expand on the links, the breed mean standard or bms for Labs is currently 15.* So when you hip score, you are looking to get a score around the BMS, *the lower the better and it's also best if they are nice and even. So, for example, 7:7 is better than 14:0, although still under the BMS, that one hip is a much higher score than the other, and most would wonder why this is.
> 
> *The one thing that does get misunderstood a lot about the BMS is the idea that it has to be at the level of, or lower than this figure*, a *mean* score is to give you an idea of the average, so a score above the BMS is perfectly acceptable, as long as it isn't significantly above the BMS. Also, you need to take the hip scores and elbow grades in context with the whole dog. If you have a top quality dog that is genetically clear for the relevant conditions, and has a hip score of 10:10, you need to weigh up whether that individual dog has enough going for them to include or exclude from a breeding programme, but not exclude them simply because their hip score is higher than the BMS alone, I hope that makes sense


I thought that the advice was as follows:

_Hip Scoring should be considered along with other criteria as part of a responsible breeding programme, and,* ideally, breeders should choose
breeding stock with hip scores WELL BELOW the Breed Mean Score (BMS) *and ideally below the Median for their breed. For further advice see
BVA - Canine Health Schemes_

Are you saying this is not the case?


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## Sleeping_Lion

smokeybear said:


> I thought that the advice was as follows:
> 
> _Hip Scoring should be considered along with other criteria as part of a responsible breeding programme, and,* ideally, breeders should choose
> breeding stock with hip scores WELL BELOW the Breed Mean Score (BMS) *and ideally below the Median for their breed. For further advice see
> BVA - Canine Health Schemes_
> 
> Are you saying this is not the case?


Yes, I would disagree with that advice, it's not detailed enough, and to discard an otherwise good dog for a hip score above, but not substantially above the BMS is to me, quite foolish, as they may well make a valid contribution to the gene pool without ever throwing hip problems as such.

Swarthy will be able to tell you more, but it is far too simplistic to say use a dog with as low a hip score as possible. Take my bitch Tau, she has 0:0 hips, and yet I am incredibly unlikely to be lucky enough, and that's what I would put it down to, to have a pup from her with 0:0 hips, that's incredibly rare. So am I failing the Labrador gene pool by introducing a pup or pups with higher hip scores than her, and possibly the dog I plan to use as well?


----------



## smokeybear

I think your argument might hold weig htif you were not discussing such a numerically strong breed.

With 44k+ labradors bred annually, surely there can be no excuse for using a dog with a higher hip score than the BMS?

I could understand people doing this with say Sealyhams where there is not the choice available, but with Labs (and GSDs one of my breeds) which are in abundance, there is a plethora of dogs available with very low hip scores, 0:0 elbows, clear eyes and working instincts I can see no possible reason to use a dog with a hip score anywhere NEAR approaching the BMS.


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## Sleeping_Lion

smokeybear said:


> I think your argument might hold weig htif you were not discussing such a numerically strong breed.
> 
> With 44k+ labradors bred annually, surely there can be no excuse for using a dog with a higher hip score than the BMS?
> 
> I could understand people doing this with say Sealyhams where there is not the choice available, but with Labs (and GSDs one of my breeds) which are in abundance, there is a plethora of dogs available with very low hip scores, 0:0 elbows, clear eyes and working instincts I can see no possible reason to use a dog with a hip score anywhere NEAR approaching the BMS.


I'm afraid that shows how little you realise that even with a breed so numerous as Labs, that a suitable dog isn't just down the road. It has taken me quite some time to come to the decision to possibly go ahead with Tau, and I don't think I perhaps would have, if I hadn't come across a dog that matches her so well.

I also think perhaps you don't understand the importance of breed type fully, there are many 0:0 hip scored dogs I could use, that aren't as good an example of a Labrador as the dog I've chosen, who does have a low hip score, but even if he'd been above the BMS he would be a better match for Tau in many respects, and for me, I would be less responsible a breeder using a dog for the sake of a lower hip score, than a better match all round to my bitch. Sorry if that sounds patronising in any way, it isn't meant to be at all, but having spent such a lot of time researching this, health test results are incredibly important, but they are part of a very large puzzle and it doesn't always work the same for every mating


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## smokeybear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm afraid that shows how little you realise that even with a breed so numerous as Labs, that a suitable dog isn't just down the road. It has taken me quite some time to come to the decision to possibly go ahead with Tau, and I don't think I perhaps would have, if I hadn't come across a dog that matches her so well.
> 
> I also think perhaps you don't understand the importance of breed type fully, there are many 0:0 hip scored dogs I could use, that aren't as good an example of a Labrador as the dog I've chosen, who does have a low hip score, but even if he'd been above the BMS he would be a better match for Tau in many respects, and for me, I would be less responsible a breeder using a dog for the sake of a lower hip score, than a better match all round to my bitch. Sorry if that sounds patronising in any way, it isn't meant to be at all, but having spent such a lot of time researching this, health test results are incredibly important, but they are part of a very large puzzle and it doesn't always work the same for every mating


I do not think I suggested that a suitable dog was just down the road?
:confused1:

And I have a BIT of a grasp of "breed type" 

I agree that hips are only PART of the picture, the point I was making was that knowing the number of working labradors, their lines and kennels (I meet a fair few)  the chances of not being able to meet ALL the criteria ie lines, health requirements, breed standard, working ability are considerably less than if you were considering a numerically smaller breed.

I have never bred from either of my bitches and I have refused all enquiries re my current male.

The reasons for these decisions were all different but nothing to do with health, temperament or working ability.

I am also not that brave!


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## Sleeping_Lion

smokeybear said:


> I do not think I suggested that a suitable dog was just down the road?
> :confused1:
> 
> And I have a BIT of a grasp of "breed type"
> 
> I agree that hips are only PART of the picture, the point I was making was that knowing the number of working labradors, their lines and kennels (I meet a fair few)  the chances of not being able to meet ALL the criteria ie lines, health requirements, breed standard, working ability are considerably less than if you were considering a numerically smaller breed.
> 
> I have never bred from either of my bitches and I have refused all enquiries re my current male.
> 
> The reasons for these decisions were all different but nothing to do with health, temperament or working ability.
> 
> I am also not that brave!


The problem with my bitch is that she's not working bred, nor is she fully show bred, so to find a pedigree that compliments her so well, was quite a shock tbh. I had my heart set on a complete outcross for quite a long while, because that's pretty much all I could see that I liked up until spotting this boy. I wasn't hugely bothered about colour, he happens to be chocolate, which just brings me forward a generation as if I'd used black, the likelihood would have been that I would have gone back to chocolate (I know, I know, but I just like my chocolate numpties) for the next mating. Who knows what my next decision will be, if indeed I get as far as this first litter.

The other thing to bear in mind with chocolates is that they seem to have a higher COI than the other two colours, very generally speaking that is, and I can only assume that's down to a couple of bottle necks and the fact that they have been rarer in the past (non existent pretty much in the working field), although there are so many of the bloomin things around now you're forever tripping over them - but to add to that, the amount of chocolate Labs I see that don't look anything like, is uncomfortably high, for me, personally. And going right back to my original post, *if* I can contribute something positive towards this breed, and particularly this colour of this breed, then I would be ecstatic 

One other thing to note about the hip thing, having known someone with a very nice proven working bitch, low hip scores, put to a low scoring dog, only for all the progeny that then went on to be hip scored, come out with high hip scores, that experience shows for me, that although you *need* to bear hip scores in mind, you also need to be very aware there is absolutely no guarantee mating low to low will produce low hip scores.


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## smokeybear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The problem with my bitch is that she's not working bred, nor is she fully show bred, so to find a pedigree that compliments her so well, was quite a shock tbh. I had my heart set on a complete outcross for quite a long while, because that's pretty much all I could see that I liked up until spotting this boy. I wasn't hugely bothered about colour, he happens to be chocolate, which just brings me forward a generation as if I'd used black, the likelihood would have been that I would have gone back to chocolate (I know, I know, but I just like my chocolate numpties) for the next mating. Who knows what my next decision will be, if indeed I get as far as this first litter.
> 
> The other thing to bear in mind with chocolates is that they seem to have a higher COI than the other two colours, very generally speaking that is, and I can only assume that's down to a couple of bottle necks and the fact that they have been rarer in the past (non existent pretty much in the working field), although there are so many of the bloomin things around now you're forever tripping over them - but to add to that, the amount of chocolate Labs I see that don't look anything like, is uncomfortably high, for me, personally. And going right back to my original post, *if* I can contribute something positive towards this breed, and particularly this colour of this breed, then I would be ecstatic
> 
> One other thing to note about the hip thing, having known someone with a very nice proven working bitch, low hip scores, put to a low scoring dog, only for all the progeny that then went on to be hip scored, come out with high hip scores, that experience shows for me, that although you *need* to bear hip scores in mind, you also need to be very aware there is absolutely no guarantee mating low to low will produce low hip scores.


There are no guarantees in breeding period! :scared:


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## Sleeping_Lion

smokeybear said:


> There are no guarantees in breeding period! :scared:


Absolutely, which is why the research bit is so important, it makes a huge difference going into something with your eyes open, knowing how much and how little you know, rather than thinking you know enough


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## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Swarthy will be able to tell you more, but it is far too simplistic to say use a dog with as low a hip score as possible. Take my bitch Tau, she has 0:0 hips, and yet I am incredibly unlikely to be lucky enough, and that's what I would put it down to, to have a pup from her with 0:0 hips, that's incredibly rare. So am I failing the Labrador gene pool by introducing a pup or pups with higher hip scores than her, and possibly the dog I plan to use as well?


It's so rare that, to date, out of over 72K dogs scored, there is still only one instance of two 0/0 parents producing a 0/0 scoring dog in the UK - that particular dog comes from 4 generations of one parent scoring 0/0 - but he is very much the exception to the rule.

Even in a numerically large breed such as Labradors which does have a sizeable gene pool, it's nowhere near as broad as some might think.

There are so many health tests coming in now, that never before has the the phrase "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" been more pronounced.

Unfortunately - hips don't keep going down and down in the way people envisage - if you persistently used dogs below the breed mean - your gene pool would be non-existent because the probability based on analysis of the entire database shows us that very low scores often produce progeny with higher scores but below the breed average, whilst similarly - two parents with average (not high) scores inevitably has around a 99% probability of producing progeny with scores lower than the parents.

If only it was as simple as "low parents" low offspring life would be so much more straightforward.

Every dog should be assessed on it's own merits and that includes hipscores for which everyone will have their own tolerances.

a dog can have good hips, and fall down on elbows, or an eye test, or be genetically affected for PRA, carrier for CNM - might have been found to have MRD - the list goes on.

Each time one of these tests throws up something that removes a dog from the gene pool - you squeeze it down just that little bit more.

When you cosnider that despite a HUGE increase in dogs being scored now themselves coming from two scored parents, it's not hard to see that things are moving in a very positive direction, nevertheless, even in these enlightened times, there are still a LOT of dogs being bred without a single health-test.  and these still form a large proportion of the dogs registered year on year.

It would be frighteningly easy to reduce the size of a gene pool in no time at all even in a breed like Labs - goodness knows how hard it must be for numerically smaller breeds.

Ultimately, when you start looking for the best dog for your girl - there's lots of good dogs out there - but can they add to your girl the weaknesses / faults you want to improve / correct - and that's a story for another day - because the 'yes' pile can diminish rapidly when you start looking closer  not because there's anything wrong with these dogs, but because they are unlikely to be able to correct a specific feature.


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## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> It's so rare that, to date, out of over 72K dogs scored, there is still only one instance of two 0/0 parents producing a 0/0 scoring dog in the UK - that particular dog comes from 4 generations of one parent scoring 0/0 - but he is very much the exception to the rule.
> 
> Even in a numerically large breed such as Labradors which does have a sizeable gene pool, it's nowhere near as broad as some might think.
> 
> There are so many health tests coming in now, that never before has the the phrase "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" been more pronounced.
> 
> Unfortunately - hips don't keep going down and down in the way people envisage - if you persistently used dogs below the breed mean - your gene pool would be non-existent because the probability based on analysis of the entire database shows us that very low scores often produce progeny with higher scores but below the breed average, whilst similarly - two parents with average (not high) scores inevitably has around a 99% probability of producing progeny with scores lower than the parents.
> 
> If only it was as simple as "low parents" low offspring life would be so much more straightforward.
> 
> Every dog should be assessed on it's own merits and that includes hipscores for which everyone will have their own tolerances.
> 
> a dog can have good hips, and fall down on elbows, or an eye test, or be genetically affected for PRA, carrier for CNM - might have been found to have MRD - the list goes on.
> 
> Each time one of these tests throws up something that removes a dog from the gene pool - you squeeze it down just that little bit more.
> 
> When you cosnider that despite a HUGE increase in dogs being scored now themselves coming from two scored parents, it's not hard to see that things are moving in a very positive direction, nevertheless, even in these enlightened times, there are still a LOT of dogs being bred without a single health-test.  and these still form a large proportion of the dogs registered year on year.
> 
> It would be frighteningly easy to reduce the size of a gene pool in no time at all even in a breed like Labs - goodness knows how hard it must be for numerically smaller breeds.
> 
> Ultimately, when you start looking for the best dog for your girl - there's lots of good dogs out there - but can they add to your girl the weaknesses / faults you want to improve / correct - and that's a story for another day - because the 'yes' pile can diminish rapidly when you start looking closer  not because there's anything wrong with these dogs, but because they are unlikely to be able to correct a specific feature.


I was hoping you'd expand (not literally of course) but to give an insight into this subject for Labs, as I know how much information and work you've put in to looking at the health of Labradors, including hip scores, amongst other research!

I know you know the dog I'm looking at, and tbh, I can't think of one that matches Tau's pedigree as well as his does. And again, I know you look at many, many pedigrees, and think that he's a good match, and that for me is the best starting point. *Then* I look at what else is involved, health tests, working ability, conformation etc, etc, and try to build up the picture and decide whether it *is* the match it looks on paper


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## Blondie

I will simply add that regarding hip scores and the 'average ' scores for breeds, a rotties is currently at 12, but you have to remember and keep in context, when looking at scores, that the score is out of 102!! So to have averages as low os many breeds do, to me, is excellent!!


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## Blondie

terencesmum said:


> Swarthy, can I ask re this "mentor" business? So, if someone wanted to start showing one of your pups but had no clue where to start or how to go about this, would you be happy to mentor them regarding that as well?
> 
> PS: I think the mentoring is a brilliant idea!


The breeder of my Cleo was and still is my Mentor. When we got Cleo, the family had been 'out' of showing for just over 10 years so although I knew lots, I needed to be brought up to date with lots of stuff too, including the way that Rotties were now handled in the ring, lol!

Jan took us under her wing and guided and advised us with the showing and Jan is so wonderful, that when Cleo was going through a stage of not being placed at shows, she got terribly upset and even offered us her pick male she was going to keep herself from the next litter, for free. We were so touched by this and it simply made us appreciate her even more than we did already. We turned her down and made breeding plans, all with her help and guidance too.

Jan remains a friend and mentor and always will. We dont agree on everything, but we respect her deeply and will always regard her as our mentor and she is the first person we go to with any problems and she is always there for us. Without Jan, we wouldnt be where we are today.  no matter what happens, we will never disrespect Jan and we will always remain forever in her debt for allowing us to have one of her pups, we will always be her friends.

Once we began breeding, I would like to think we have 'mentored' a few people ourselves now, and set them on the road to learning more about the breed/showing/breeding. We are always willing to help people in any aspect of the breed and if we dont know the answer, we will go find out from someone else, lol.


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## swarthy

Ceearott said:


> I will simply add that regarding hip scores and the 'average ' scores for breeds, a rotties is currently at 12, but you have to remember and keep in context, when looking at scores, that the score is out of 102!! So to have averages as low os many breeds do, to me, is excellent!!


106 is the max possible score  99 is the highest ever scored dog in a Rottie

It does tickle me how many people automatically think 1 point above the breed average and start screaming "Dyplasia"

When in reality - dogs double or even higher than the low end breed averages are no more likely to develop problems than those dogs with very low scores.

*Now that isn't saying we should breed from them -* but there will be people out there blissfully unaware their dogs hips are not perfect until they develop arthritis in their old age in exactly the same way as any old dog (or human - not so old in my case  ) does.

Average is just that - the total of all the dogs scored divided by the number of dogs scored - which in Labs is over 70K dogs, with scores ranging from 0 through to 106 - and based on the very numbers is considered indicative of the wider breed - because the number of exceptionally high or exceptionally low scores needed to shift that average by just a single point is phenomenal and never likely to happen - all we will see is a VERY slow shift on averages downwards and probably why the BVA now publish 5 year rolling averages.

The reality is providing a marginally higher scored dog is matched to a lower dog, the historic facts tell us that the progeny typically score lower than the higher scoring parent - the same with two average scoring parents.

Where this balance shifts is with two very high scoring parent, or a high scoring parent mated to an unscored dog (where one would have to assume then that the unscored dog also had poor hips).

Two severely dysplastic parents would statistically produce 2 dogs in a litter of 8 with dysplasia.

What is also interesting is that in the main, where we see dogs with high scores from low scoring parents - the dog is typically asymptomatic - yet when we see dysplastic pups from dealers and unscored parents, they often require surgical or physo intervention to deal with the problem.

Is this because responsible breeders typically give their puppy buyers advice on sensible exercise and diet during the first 12 months of their lives? hence minimising the damage done to poor hips during that time when the bones are still developing?

There will always be exceptions to the rule no matter what you do - but certainly in Labs - where we see the biggest problems are where people have bought from PF and BYB and often only ask for advice once the damage is physically visible - by which time it is usually too late to remove the need for medical intervention of some description.


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## Blondie

LOL! Swarthy - I actually put 106, then thought, no, its 102 

I remember a bitch pup owner telling me by chance she had the dog walker coming in to walk the pup 3 times a day, an hour each time!!

Needless to say, we had a little chat and that got rectified


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## Sleeping_Lion

Such a lot of good information posted, thank you for all the likes, all the replies, and all the extra info, really great 

Right, the one last test that I honestly don't know whether Tau will pass is tomorrow afternoon. So fingers crossed, she appears to have good eyesight, but we will find out for sure after her BVA eye test. If she fails, then all plans are scuppered, however, she will still be my bestest daft numpty girl, no matter what


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## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If she fails, then all plans are scuppered, however, she will still be my bestest daft numpty girl, no matter what


I hope Indie doesn't read this... :hand::hand:


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## sezra

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Such a lot of good information posted, thank you for all the likes, all the replies, and all the extra info, really great
> 
> Right, the one last test that I honestly don't know whether Tau will pass is tomorrow afternoon. So fingers crossed, she appears to have good eyesight, but we will find out for sure after her BVA eye test. If she fails, then all plans are scuppered, however, she will still be my bestest daft numpty girl, no matter what


Fingers crossed for tomorrow. x


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## Sleeping_Lion

I thought it would be interesting to put the theoretical litter pedigree on this thread, to show why (for me) the dog I've come across is such a nice match for Tau. Tau's sire is a successful show bred dog, and her dam has a mix of various show and working behind her, I liked the bitch because of her drive and knew (when looking for a pup) I wanted to do *something* with my dog(s), and get involved with training. I've always struggled to find anything remotely similar that has proven working ability in there, and to date, my best choices would have been pretty much complete outcrosses, that may have ended up with what I wanted, but it was more of a gamble as to the *type* of dog that Tau would possibly throw.










I won't say much more, because I think it's an interesting topic to discuss, but the Rocheby lines were what interested me, plus the fact that the only small bit of working Tau has in her pedigree is also present in this one, although it's dropped off the end of the certificate by one generation :lol:


----------



## Ridgielover

Sleeping Lion - a genuine question: Do you risk losing good pigmentation by repeatedly mating chocolate to chocolate? We have livernoses as a recessive to the black nosed dogs in my breed and it would be very rare for livers to be mated together.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Ridgielover said:


> Sleeping Lion - a genuine question: Do you risk losing good pigmentation by repeatedly mating chocolate to chocolate? We have livernoses as a recessive to the black nosed dogs in my breed and it would be very rare for livers to be mated together.


According to science, no, but according to *old timers* within the breed, yes. Tau is very possibly dilute, I haven't tested her, it was on my list of things to do but haven't got round to it. I still may yet. The dog I plan to use has good eye colour and is a nice mid tone chocolate. Indie, Tau's older half sister is much darker, I've posted pics of her before, but not as dark as some chocolates, who appear almost black.

I am hoping for good colour all round, we'll see, Tau's breeder thought she'd got a couple of yellows in there she was so pale at birth, this is Tau at a few weeks of age:










And next to her big sis, Indie:










She's currently sporting a non-bleached coat, but is still draws comments about being pale, again, shown with Indie:


----------



## swarthy

Ridgielover said:


> Sleeping Lion - a genuine question: Do you risk losing good pigmentation by repeatedly mating chocolate to chocolate? We have livernoses as a recessive to the black nosed dogs in my breed and it would be very rare for livers to be mated together.


In a nutshell no - I've been talking to a gene testing company about this as I was in awe of some of the comments I was getting about mating yellow to chocolate - and in their own words - the colours behind either dog are completely immaterial - it's the colours of the dogs and what they carry that's important.

So - if you were mating chocolate to yellow - you need to ensure that they are not both / carry yellow as this is where you get your pigmentation issues is your yellows.

My darkest chocolate girl with super pigmentation has very few blacks in her pedigree - but lots of chocolates and quite a few yellows and herself carries yelow.

If I mate her to a yellow with black pigment not carrying chocolate, I would get yellow and black pups and no pigmentation issues

If I mate her to chocolate, providing he doesn't carry yellow, I won't have a problem and will have all chocolate pups.

Now - if I mate her to a black carrying yellow and chocolate - I am likely to have at least one Dudley in the litter (yellow with liver /no pigmentation) - whereby if the theory about going back to black was correct - this wouldn't happen.

There is a Dilution Gene (Dd) which the majority of breeders don't test for - but I would hazard a guess that if Tau was tested for it, she would carry the dilution gene - so she may / may not produce some lighter chocolates, but they could equally be all dark.

The 'd' gene gives blacks a blue as opposed to brown undercoat.

I am advised by the people in the know that the genes affecting eye colour and pigmentation (aside from the liver pigment issue) have not yet been isolated.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just got back from the vets, Tau has passed her BVA eye test, so fingers crossed all goes to plan from here on in


----------



## Blondie

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just got back from the vets, Tau has passed her BVA eye test, so fingers crossed all goes to plan from here on in


Fab news!! :thumbup: Really chuffed for you SL!!


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## swarthy

Excellent news - eye tests are always a horrible time as so many conditions don't show up in 'day to day' life demonstrating why these health tests are so important


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## terencesmum

Tau pupsters if all goes to plan!!! Mr T and I are very excited! :thumbup:


----------



## SpringerHusky

Fantastic to read :thumbup:

I'm not sure I could ever have puppies again, maybe because I had a less than great experince that it put me off.

My husband does though and I have agreed that if we do everything right get a mentor etc then I may let him breed springers like he wants to.

He had a better experience probarlley due to a smaller litter but maybe 'cause i'm a female and very sensitive, I don't want to feel that awful feeling of regret ever again.


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## sezra

Hurray!  Well done Tau! Very pleased for you. :thumbup:


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## Bijou

great - all the best with your breeding plans :thumbup:


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## LexiLou2

Wow this is so interesting!!

Firstly SL hope everything goes to plan Tau is a stunning girl and I'm glad all her tests came back as you wanted.

Now can I ask a question about hip scoring as I'm trying to get my head round it all.

You say that 2 parents both 0:0 have an exceeding low chance of producing a pup that is also 0:0, so can two dogs with low scores produce pups with high hip scores or if you use parents with 0:0 do you pretty much guarentee you will get at least low scores?
And at the other end if for example you had two parents with 15:15 (if thats possible) can they go on to produce pups that are 0:0.
I know that hip scoring is an important part of choosing breeding stock but I always thought that the lower the hip score of the parents the lower you guarenteed the pups hip scores, but now I'm not too sure I've understood it correctly.

I find all this fascinating, and I would love at some point to own a dog that was a good enough example of the breed to look to breed from. I think it would have to be a worker though rather than show, Bosley has woken a passion in me to own a real working dog, bless him he's a patterdale and likes to play at hunting, we have some strange birds (no idea what they are) that seem to roost on the ground (is it roosting when they are on the groud) but every walk he hunts them down and 'flushes' them out, he does its on command now, if you tell him 'find' he goes and finds them but I'd love to own a working cocker or lab or something similar (very different breeds I know but its a way off yet I have time to research) and train it for shoots etc


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Wow this is so interesting!!
> 
> Firstly SL hope everything goes to plan Tau is a stunning girl and I'm glad all her tests came back as you wanted.
> 
> Now can I ask a question about hip scoring as I'm trying to get my head round it all.
> 
> You say that 2 parents both 0:0 have an exceeding low chance of producing a pup that is also 0:0, so can two dogs with low scores produce pups with high hip scores or if you use parents with 0:0 do you pretty much guarentee you will get at least low scores?
> And at the other end if for example you had two parents with 15:15 (if thats possible) can they go on to produce pups that are 0:0.
> I know that hip scoring is an important part of choosing breeding stock but I always thought that the lower the hip score of the parents the lower you guarenteed the pups hip scores, but now I'm not too sure I've understood it correctly.
> 
> I find all this fascinating, and I would love at some point to own a dog that was a good enough example of the breed to look to breed from. I think it would have to be a worker though rather than show, Bosley has woken a passion in me to own a real working dog, bless him he's a patterdale and likes to play at hunting, we have some strange birds (no idea what they are) that seem to roost on the ground (is it roosting when they are on the groud) but every walk he hunts them down and 'flushes' them out, he does its on command now, if you tell him 'find' he goes and finds them but I'd love to own a working cocker or lab or something similar (very different breeds I know but its a way off yet I have time to research) and train it for shoots etc


No, there's no guarantee of low scoring progeny from the lowest possible scored parents, in fact, as Swarthy posted, pretty much the opposite, you will get higher scored progeny. So I'm not expecting at all, if I get as far as taking this one litter, and keeping the pup back I want, and having her hip scored, that she will be 0:0 or even as low as 3:3, as long as the pup is around the BMS I will be happy.

Swarthy's post really elaborates on this issue and as she has studied this in so much depth, she will be able to put more detail into her posts. Simply put, we are not talking about a genetic status, we're talking statistics, and they can be skewed by multiple factors


----------



## LexiLou2

Thanks, I did read her post then I read the one about colours and dilution genes and my mind just boggled a bit.

So in the most simplistic terms hip scoring is more about statitics and average than genetics, its more maths than biology? So by using two parents with low hip scores you are hopefully bringing down your average, although you can still get anomolies?

Its a mine field!!!!!!!


----------



## swarthy

LexiLou2 said:


> Now can I ask a question about hip scoring as I'm trying to get my head round it all.
> 
> You say that 2 parents both 0:0 have an exceeding low chance of producing a pup that is also 0:0, so can two dogs with low scores produce pups with high hip scores or if you use parents with 0:0 do you pretty much guarentee you will get at least low scores?
> And at the other end if for example you had two parents with 15:15 (if thats possible) can they go on to produce pups that are 0:0.
> I know that hip scoring is an important part of choosing breeding stock but I always thought that the lower the hip score of the parents the lower you guarenteed the pups hip scores, but now I'm not too sure I've understood it correctly.
> 
> I find all this fascinating, and I would love at some point to own a dog that was a good enough example of the breed to look to breed from. I think it would have to be a worker though rather than show, Bosley has woken a passion in me to own a real working dog, bless him he's a patterdale and likes to play at hunting, we have some strange birds (no idea what they are) that seem to roost on the ground (is it roosting when they are on the groud) but every walk he hunts them down and 'flushes' them out, he does its on command now, if you tell him 'find' he goes and finds them but I'd love to own a working cocker or lab or something similar (very different breeds I know but its a way off yet I have time to research) and train it for shoots etc


Two low scoring parents have a high chance of progeny scoring below the breed average - but then - actually so do two average scored parents  and you will often find that the progeny of average scored parents are lower than two 0/0 scoring parents (just to confuse the issue totally )

In my total database which goes to the end of 2008 - the average progeny scores were as follows


Two 0/0 parents - Progeny Average 14.06 (most common score 9)

Sire 0 - Dam 1 - Progeny Average 10.91 (most common score 4)

Sire 0 - Dam 2 - Progeny Average 7.05 (Most common score 2)

Sire 0 - Dam 3 - Progeny Average 6.79 (Most common score 8)

Sire 0 - Dam 4 - Progeny Average 7.95 (Most common score 6)

Sire 0 - Dam 5 - Progeny Average 6.93 (Most common score 6)

Sire 0 - Dam 6 - Progeny Average 7.94 (most common score 6)

Sire 0 - Dam 7 - Progeny Average 9.82 (Most common score 6)

Sire 0 - Dam 8 - Progeny Average 8.66 (Most common score 10)

Sire 0 - Dam 9 Progeny Average 7.67 (Most common score 7)

Sire 0 - Dam 10 Progeny Average 10.53 (Most common score 8)

Sire 0 - Dam 11 - Progeny Average 10.51 (most common score 10)

Sire 0 - Dam 12 - Progeny Average 8.41 (most common score 8)

Sire 0 - Dams 15 to 20 - Progeny Average 14.42 (most common score 8)

Sire 0 and every other bitch above 20 - Progeny average 13.20 (most common score 8)
============================


Sire 5 - bitch 0 to 5 - average 8.96 (most common score 6)

Sire 5 - Bitch 6 to 10 - Average 10.68 (most common score 8)

Sire 5 - Bitch 11 to 20 - Progeny Average - 12.39 (most common score 8)
====================


Sire 15 - Bitch 1 to 10 - Progeny Average 13.30 (most common score 9)

Sire 15 - Bitch 11 to 15 - Progeny Average 15 (most common score 9)
===============================

So when I get laughed at for saying that, up to a given point - we will not be able to squeeze overall scores down much further - the facts speak for themselves, these figures are samples extrapolated from 52.5K records.

When breeding - you look at the WHOLE dog - Hip scores are important - as is hipscoring - as dome dysplastic dogs will be asymptomatic.

You pick the best dog for your bitch - if your bitch has a slightly higher score - then you MIGHT have to compromise by going for your second choice sire if your first choice also has a higher score - but there is nout wrong with counteracting and balancing and also looking at the types of scores a sire produces.

To throw quality dogs out of a gene pool for having scores marginally above the breed average in breeds with low averages could, in the long term, do more harm than good.

Scores cannot keep on falling - because lower scoring dogs invariably throw higher scoring progeny, whilst average scored dogs still typically throw progeny averaging below the breed average.

The most common scores range by a miniscule amount in terms of difference across the different groups - and seeming anomalies of 'off the scale' scores happen across the board - because until the genes causing HD are isolated - we will never have all the answers or know what role the environment plays.

What we do know is that where dogs are responsibly bred and good advice given - even dogs with not so great hips are often asymptomatic (and comes back full circle to why it is so important for all dogs used in breeding to be scored - but it's also important - particularly in the breeds where averages are lower - that puppy buyers don't run down the street screaming 'guaranteed progeny hip dysplasia because one parent has a score a point or two above the breed average.

I know someone who literally used to do this until, surprise, surprise, their dog scored just above the breed average - only then did they start to learn


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Thanks, I did read her post then I read the one about colours and dilution genes and my mind just boggled a bit.
> 
> So in the most simplistic terms hip scoring is more about statitics and average than genetics, its more maths than biology? So by using two parents with low hip scores you are hopefully bringing down your average, although you can still get anomolies?
> 
> Its a mine field!!!!!!!


Cearott posted a couple of useful links about the way the hips are scored, from memory, each hip is scored out of 53 for Labs, and each of those hips is broken down into four areas (I think that's right, although happy to be corrected). So when you see a score of 4:6, or 10:11, there's actually an awful lot more in there than those two simple figures. What if, for example all of the 4:6 related to one portion of the hip joint, where as with the 10:11 score, it was broken down pretty much equally between all four sections that are scored? You're right, it is a mine field, however, it is the only way we have currently of looking at the status of the hips for our dogs, and so it's the best tool available for the job


----------



## swarthy

LexiLou2 said:


> Thanks, I did read her post then I read the one about colours and dilution genes and my mind just boggled a bit.
> 
> So in the most simplistic terms hip scoring is more about statitics and average than genetics, its more maths than biology? So by using two parents with low hip scores you are hopefully bringing down your average, although you can still get anomolies?
> 
> Its a mine field!!!!!!!


It is that 

We are talking about genetics - and in Labs, I would say that the overall breed average is representative of the wider breed because so many dogs have been scored - and we would need massive numbers of very high or low scoring dogs to change the average by even 1 point.

The only way you can get a wholly rounded picture of genetics using scoring is if every dog was scored - a nice idea - but probably not feasible.

However, in popular sires, you can start to build a picture of individual breeding lines - which are also interesting - clearly showing some lines / dogs as being hip improvers - unfortunately - until science moves forward - we can only work with what we've got.


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## LexiLou2

Thanks both, I find it all fascinating, a bit mind boggling but fascinating....


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## noushka05

Great to hear shes passed her eye test SL xx


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## Devil-Dogz

Glad to hear she passed


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## Sleeping_Lion

Just a quick update, can I say, any potential breeders, whether you *think* you are going about things the right way or not be prepared for flack! 

I've had criticism over the last couple of days for even thinking of breeding Labradors when there are so many in rescue, and for not including certain health tests in my regime of health tests. I have a thick skin, developed over a number of years from owning chocolate Labs, and I knew I would receive some ripe comments, but I think it proves to me, it's not for the faint hearted!


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## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just a quick update, can I say, any potential breeders, whether you *think* you are going about things the right way or not be prepared for flack!
> 
> I've had criticism over the last couple of days for even thinking of breeding Labradors when there are so many in rescue, and for not including certain health tests in my regime of health tests. I have a thick skin, developed over a number of years from owning chocolate Labs, and I knew I would receive some ripe comments, but I think it proves to me, it's not for the faint hearted!


Let's hope for 2 pups then, to shut up all those nay sayers. One for you and one for me :thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> Let's hope for 2 pups then, to shut up all those nay sayers. One for you and one for me :thumbup:


Lol, Oi, missy, you need to square up that Terence pup before you decide on any new additions! 

No, I'm prepared for flack from any quarters, if I go ahead, it's because in in the right position to do so, and having spent so much time planning this, b*gga what any one else thinks to be quite honest!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Lol, Oi, missy, you need to square up that Terence pup before you decide on any new additions!


:aureola::aureola:


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## Blondie

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just a quick update, can I say, any potential breeders, whether you *think* you are going about things the right way or not be prepared for flack!
> 
> I've had criticism over the last couple of days for even thinking of breeding Labradors when there are so many in rescue, and for not including certain health tests in my regime of health tests. I have a thick skin, developed over a number of years from owning chocolate Labs, and I knew I would receive some ripe comments, but I think it proves to me, it's not for the faint hearted!


I think you need a 'thick skin' to be in dogs full stop these days, lol!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Ceearott said:


> I think you need a 'thick skin' to be in dogs full stop these days, lol!


Honestly, one person actually said they would spit on me if they could for breeding, when there are so many dogs in rescue. There is an absolute lack of understanding of what is actually causing the problem with rescues, and the good breeders, of which I hope I'd be counted as one, take the flack for being open and honest. The cr*p breeders just keep quiet and pocket the cash for doing as little as possible with their dogs, and churning out as much as possible!!


----------



## Blondie

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Honestly, one person actually said they would spit on me if they could for breeding, when there are so many dogs in rescue. There is an absolute lack of understanding of what is actually causing the problem with rescues, and the good breeders, of which I hope I'd be counted as one, take the flack for being open and honest. The cr*p breeders just keep quiet and pocket the cash for doing as little as possible with their dogs, and churning out as much as possible!!


Aye, sadly, there will always be those who consider themselves in the right to go digging for a speck of dirt and then try to blow it out of proportion and stir up ahornets nest with it - when perhaps they ought to make sure their own hands are clean before pointing the finger, lol!

Oh, let them spit on ya - I would - then slap them with an ABH charge!


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## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Honestly, one person actually said they would spit on me if they could for breeding, when there are so many dogs in rescue. There is an absolute lack of understanding of what is actually causing the problem with rescues, and the good breeders, of which I hope I'd be counted as one, take the flack for being open and honest. The cr*p breeders just keep quiet and pocket the cash for doing as little as possible with their dogs, and churning out as much as possible!!


I used to know someone like that (you probably know them too) - they even reported someone to the RSPCA and PDSA for having am accidental (so they say) litter from a young bitch (not that they did anything - they even treated the bitch!!! a the family had no money!!!)

Then the 'pup' they bought (couldn't risk a rescue with the presence of children) - got a couple of OK results at CH shows - and they had her health tested - they used to scream HD if one parent had a score 1 point above the breed average - strange how everything has changed now their decent bitch of reasonable breeding has a similar score  but NOW they understand it - where they wouldn't even listen before 

The phrase "you have to walk in someone else's shoes.........................


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> I used to know someone like that (you probably know them too) - they even reported someone to the RSPCA and PDSA for having am accidental (so they say) litter from a young bitch (not that they did anything - they even treated the bitch!!! a the family had no money!!!)
> 
> Then the 'pup' they bought (couldn't risk a rescue with the presence of children) - got a couple of OK results at CH shows - and they had her health tested - they used to scream HD if one parent had a score 1 point above the breed average - strange how everything has changed now their decent bitch of reasonable breeding has a similar score  but NOW they understand it - where they wouldn't even listen before
> 
> The phrase "you have to walk in someone else's shoes.........................


Oooh, I'm intrigued!! Tbh, since starting to research possibly breeding dogs, I've come across very few people I'd count as *associates* or even friends, who I think are openly honest about their breeding plans. I've come across plenty who are as novice as me, and yet spout a load of gubbins as if they are experienced, knowledgeable and they patently aren't. It is always going to be a contentious issue breeding, and I've said it before, but I decided right back when people were telling me to *hide* Indie's elbow grade, that I made the decision to be open and honest about what I'm doing, and why I'm doing it. If I felt I had something to hide then I shouldn't be even thinking about breeding dogs, that's the way I look at it in any case, and I think I remember chatting to you about the time I had Indie spayed and why, not a nice decision to make, but definitely the right one.


----------



## portiaa

This has been a very interesting read  

I wish you lots of luck in the future if you go along with the mating, The potential stud (I think his name was red?) was gorgeous! :001_wub:

It's been really helpful in my research looking into breeding not for at least another 5-10 years yet, don't worry


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Not much to add to this, except that Tau's results are not yet on the KC database, not that I'm worried, as I can always scan her BVA eye cert, and I'm sure the Optigen results for gPRA will come back soon enough via Idexx to my vets, but it does show you need to prepare for these things in good time. 

Also, at this stage, I need to be worming Tau again in preparation, to ensure she's fully wormed and ready, just in case we definitely go ahead.


----------



## ClaireandDaisy

I did consider breeding from a bitch once because she was just fabulous. So I took her to a professional breeder and discussed it and we decided against. 
So I`ve nothing against breeding per se - it`s simply that these days so many people are breeding to make fast buck.


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## BlueBeagle

Glad Tau passed her eye test. And can't wait to see if you go ahead with this mating as it has given me such a clearer idea of a responsible breeder and one day I hope to find one like you when I look for my pup!


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## Sleeping_Lion

Tau's PRA status is confirmed as normal/clear, letter arrived from Optigen a short while ago. All should be on the KC database in good time if I do choose to go ahead.


----------



## Devil-Dogz

fab! ....


----------



## dexter

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Tau's PRA status is confirmed as normal/clear, letter arrived from Optigen a short while ago. All should be on the KC database in good time if I do choose to go ahead.


brilliant !


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Right, any advice from breeders most appreciated at this point, I'm just updating website, with a few more details, and haven't even really thought about price of pups until this point, I don't even know how much the stud dog fees are yet, but, want to put something out in the open as I think it's better that way. 

Having scouted around, the middle range seems to be about the £650 price for a nicely bred, fully health tested Labrador, no difference between dog/bitch pups, and no charge relating to lifting endorsements as long as all criteria are met. 

Any thoughts appreciated? Too high, too low?? I'm not going to make a profit unless I charge a lot more than that in any case, so am just trying to set a figure that I feel is fair for puppy buyers.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Right, any advice from breeders most appreciated at this point, I'm just updating website, with a few more details, and haven't even really thought about price of pups until this point, I don't even know how much the stud dog fees are yet, but, want to put something out in the open as I think it's better that way.
> 
> Having scouted around, the middle range seems to be about the £650 price for a nicely bred, fully health tested Labrador, no difference between dog/bitch pups, and no charge relating to lifting endorsements as long as all criteria are met.
> 
> Any thoughts appreciated? Too high, too low?? I'm not going to make a profit unless I charge a lot more than that in any case, so am just trying to set a figure that I feel is fair for puppy buyers.


Personally I would say around the £550 / £600 mark - price range tends to be between £500 and £700.

I don't actually put the price on my website - and wouldn't expect it to be the first question puppy buyers ask - maybe that's just me.

Not one of my waiting list has asked me what I charge for a pup - and it's been pretty much the last question I've asked when buying one - sort of - the night before - OMG - how much is this going to cost me 

My last litter were chipped before leaving I charged £550 a pup - that was back in 2009 - it's a fine line between not overpricing and not setting the pricing at such a low level that makes people ask "why".


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> Personally I would say around the £550 / £600 mark - price range tends to be between £500 and £700.
> 
> I don't actually put the price on my website - and wouldn't expect it to be the first question puppy buyers ask - maybe that's just me.
> 
> Not one of my waiting list has asked me what I charge for a pup - and it's been pretty much the last question I've asked when buying one - sort of - the night before - OMG - how much is this going to cost me
> 
> My last litter were chipped before leaving I charged £550 a pup - that was back in 2009 - it's a fine line between not overpricing and not setting the pricing at such a low level that makes people ask "why".


Thanks Swarthy, unfortunately, the very first two questions I get asked by folk in search of a Labrador pup, are the price and colour.

I do plan to chip, and possibly even have first vaccinations done, so I've stuck £650 on the website although I may change it after I've had a proper think about it. I'll sort it out well before Tau's even mated, just want to get everything put in place and happy with it all before thinking about taking her to see Red 

x


----------



## terencesmum

From a buyer's point of view, I don't think any of the prices you mentioned here, sound excessive.
Mind you, I'm more of Swarthy's persuasion. Money isn't the first thing I think about when it comes to dogs. 
Maybe find a price to deter some of the riff raff asking questions?  :lol:


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## Tollisty

I've never thought about how much any of mine cost. and no one on Ember's list asked how much a puppy would be.

It's odd the difference in breeds, tollers are £800 - £900, and the stud fees are that as well.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Tollisty said:


> I've never thought about how much any of mine cost. and no one on Ember's list asked how much a puppy would be.
> 
> It's odd the difference in breeds, tollers are £800 - £900, and the stud fees are that as well.


Thanks for that, flatcoats are more than Labs, Rhuna was £750, it's funny how various breeds cost more/less, some you can understand, smaller litters, not such easy whelping breeds etc, drives the *actual* costs up, others you wonder why they are so expensive, other than just plain old fashioned greed. Obviously there is a premium for dogs that aren't as common, and understandably so, as often folk will have taken a lot more time to ensure they've brought in and used good quality dogs, but not always the case, I'm sure.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thanks Swarthy, unfortunately, the very first two questions I get asked by folk in search of a Labrador pup, are the price and colour.
> 
> I do plan to chip, and possibly even have first vaccinations done, so I've stuck £650 on the website although I may change it after I've had a proper think about it. I'll sort it out well before Tau's even mated, just want to get everything put in place and happy with it all before thinking about taking her to see Red
> 
> x


That's the problem once you publish a price - if you decide to change it - people WILL notice (trust me) - I do fix my price long before the litter is even a twinkle in their daddy's eye and I keep that price whatever happens.

I would think very carefully about doing the vaccinations unless a pup is staying on awhile - different vets can use different manufacturers vaccines, and it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the puppy buyer will have to start again.

Two years ago was the first time my own vet has been prepared to charge just for the first vaccine - we were all set to have a couple done who were staying a little longer when the whole litter came down with KC so they were all delayed leaving and having their jabs 

TBH - I would be looking for enquiries that are asking questions, one of which might be around colour and price, but mixed in with many more questions.

I always reply telling them all about the parents and their health results and then ask questions about their family, working arrangements etc

I don't automatically reject full-time workers - I couldn't on the basis that I worked full-time when I had my first two (and still do most of the time, but fortunately from home a large amount of the time) - and always treat my pups as if I was working full time for the first few months - I had one pup slipe through the net and had a real issue with SA for a while when I did have to leave her 

I am looking with full-time workers to establish that they have thought through clearly what is going to happen, and that they have contingency plans in place.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> That's the problem once you publish a price - if you decide to change it - people WILL notice (trust me) - I do fix my price long before the litter is even a twinkle in their daddy's eye and I keep that price whatever happens.
> 
> I would think very carefully about doing the vaccinations unless a pup is staying on awhile - different vets can use different manufacturers vaccines, and it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the puppy buyer will have to start again.
> 
> Two years ago was the first time my own vet has been prepared to charge just for the first vaccine - we were all set to have a couple done who were staying a little longer when the whole litter came down with KC so they were all delayed leaving and having their jabs
> 
> TBH - I would be looking for enquiries that are asking questions, one of which might be around colour and price, but mixed in with many more questions.
> 
> I always reply telling them all about the parents and their health results and then ask questions about their family, working arrangements etc
> 
> I don't automatically reject full-time workers - I couldn't on the basis that I worked full-time when I had my first two (and still do most of the time, but fortunately from home a large amount of the time) - and always treat my pups as if I was working full time for the first few months - I had one pup slipe through the net and had a real issue with SA for a while when I did have to leave her
> 
> I am looking with full-time workers to establish that they have thought through clearly what is going to happen, and that they have contingency plans in place.


I was too knackered last night to respond to this, think I'm coming down with a bug, which bodes well for tonight's shift for work!!

Thanks so much for the feedback, I wouldn't necessarily dismiss full time workers out of hand either, having got both Indie and Tau when I worked full time, and indeed I have a full time job and a business now, it's just one of the most flexible jobs I could have got.

I think because I've never bred a litter, and am pretty much unknown, I get the dregs of the enquiries in many instances, with a few occasional good enquirers, who, in the past, I've helped find good breeders elsewhere. I've got something on the website now in any case, and have altered a couple of bits following your feedback, I'll also bear in mind your other advice about CD and the KC if/when it all goes ahead


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## Blondie

I dont put the price on either, I normally put POA, and if its the first thing people ask, I get suspicious from the off, lol!

I think a lot can depend where you live too, I know rottie pups from breeders down South seem able to command a higher price, anything up to 800, and TBH, I'd probably struggle to get that up here in the North. 

I tend not to put too much info on the website until the deed is done and pups are confirmed - I see it as tempting fate, lol lol!!


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## Quiddelbach

Lovely reading through this thread 

I do put price on my website and on my Champdogs advert, saves anyone having to ask and I have nothing to hide. 

I have noticed that labradors tend to have a lower stud fee than other breeds, in Flatcoats it ranges from 10% of puppy price per puppy born, plus a handling fee to the price of a puppy. 

I hate asking price of a pup, and no, it does not effect my decision, I just hate asking, but I am not good at talking money, am I joanne? :lol:


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## casey

There is another argument to the debate of money.. which I hate hate hate talking about.. but it is a fact of life.. in the end, we have to ask.. 

If we do our research well.. we know the breed we want.. we tend to know the breeder we want.. and if like me, you wait 6 years for the pup you want.. there is nothing else to ask, but the price lol.... 

after I decided who I wanted as the breeder of my pup... and spoken to other people about it.. got the go ahead from the breeder that I was going to be an OK owner.. I picked up the phone and asked.. erm.. how much is my puppy :biggrin: I knew everything else I wanted to know from my roundabout research.. didn't I Jac


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## Sleeping_Lion

I know when I got Rhuna, the last thing I asked was price, I sort of guesstimated and was pretty much there. But then her breeder doesn't have a website, I found her as many on here know, from helping out trying to find a pup for someone else, which I still need to do (Jac if you've got any ideas for any litters due in the new year??) and just spoke to Heather on the phone. And suddenly I became the owner of a flatcoat 

I've put the price on the website, along with a few other details, but I'm bound to have left something off, in fact I know I have, but at least the info is there for the planned mating, including a list of health test results and potential pedigree. If we get a successful tie, then I'll think about starting to look at the other options mentioned, CD and the KC and would love to take you up on your offer for the Lab Health website as well Swarthy. Keeping all crossed it goes ahead


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## PennyGC

Price is something which - if people don't do their homework - can put people off, and people do wonder why some breeds are more expensive than others... but some breeds are tougher to breed than others. There are silly prices for bizarre 'breeds' charged - mostly for 'designer' crosses which haven't had the expensive health tests :-(

Shelties are notoriously difficult to breed - my first girl had two litters, ended up having 2 c-sections, 3 pups in total (we lost one), one had under developed optic nerves and one was tiny as a adult (size is a big issue in shelties). Hardly a 'money making' opportunity (I don't do it to 'make' money). My second girl has had a fantastic natural birth of 6 pups - so no complaints there. Of course importing a dog has been very expensive - he's having his hips scored next week  I'm hoping to have another litter with him and my second girl next year.

The (border) collies are 'easier' to breed (pups are 'cheaper' but rising in price depending on lines and location) but lots of health tests... although my girl hasn't been BAER tested that's the only thing.. she's genetically clear of CEA, TNS and CL - I had her DNA tested for CEA before the KC put the genetically clear dogs on their data base. Her hips are 4:6 and she's had a clear eye test and gonioscopy (for narrow angled glaucoma). My next pup is also an import - so pretty expensive -I'm hoping he'll be a stud dog to selected bitches, but of course a long way to go, but he's genetically clear of TNS, CEA and CL and his relatives have excellent hip scores. He's been eye tested. He'll need eye testing at a year and to have his gonioscopy and of course hip scores. Keeping my fingers crossed though, he's received a lot of interest so far which is great.


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## Sleeping_Lion

I know health test costs are of some concern to Labrador breeders as well Penny, well, those that do them in any case. There are currently at least seven health tests now for Labs (just back in from a night shift so my brain is more mush than usual) and another 11 in development for 10 conditions, some similar, epilepsy, cancers etc. That throws out two issues, 1) it will become impossible to breed a dog that be clear of all these conditions, and the decision may have to be taken to *discount* the status of conditions that aren't deemed fatal or one that will cause considerable suffering (I can hear the sharp intakes of breath already), and 2) most breeders will have to charge substantially more for Labrador pups, to help recoup some of the costs towards health testing. 

Of course, if a test is proven reliable, the cost of health tests diminishes for those clear of certain conditions throughout their lines each generation on, but with so many tests on the horizon, there will always been the need to test the status for a number of those conditions, that is, if we are going to use them all. As it is, although we do hear about various cases of cancers, epilepsy, poor eye sight, from what I hear/see of Labs they are pretty healthy overall. So what will the knowledge of all these various new genetic statuses bring us? We are already constricting the gene pool by dismissing dogs out of hand for a slightly higher score than the BMS, or a carrier for gPRA, even affected status for gPRA can be bred clear from. I do worry that the clear syndrome is going to have an adverse effect on the Labrador gene pool, which is not as large as some would believe. And if it can possibly have such an effect on as numerically large a breed, what about other breeds?


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## Barkie

I had an idea of what the going rate was for a pup. I think that's one way you'll know if buyers have done their homework. The pup I found was priced to include kc reg, microchip, BAER and eye test and is from an AB. I wasn't expecting her to have had her first vaccinations since if it isn't the same brand your own vet uses your vet could just put you back to square one. I think what ours did was opened a new packet gave half as the first injection and charged for the whole one so if we didn't go back to use the other half as the second injection they wouldn't be left out of pocket with a half used packet. 

I prefer a breeder to have a website or a blog with enough info so that I can work out if they have a litter due that interests me. It saves me from enquiring if there's no point and them from spending time having to reply. However, if you have to ask for some details it shows the breeder that the would-be buyer knows what details to ask for. 

It also shows if you need to ask the breeder on the phone for details which breeder can't remember the stud dog's name or can't be bothered to e-mail answers to your questions. From a sales point of view I don't think it is useful to go hiding your light under a bushel. 

Absolutely if the buyer arrives tidy and they thoroughly enjoy your dogs draping themselves all over them and your dogs invite them to play it's a good sign.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I am seriously thinking about bl**dy changing vets, again 

Where do they get off with their attitudes sometimes?? Just had a phone call to give me the results for Tau's PRA test, which I've had, both from Optigen and Idexx. At that point, I mentioned that I'd like to use a premate test, and had been recommended the Idexx premate, which is done by submitting bloods, to then be subjected to a lecture about how that test was for bitches that had trouble conceiving and 95% of bitches ovulate and should be mated days 11 and 13; he even told me off for trying to interject half way through said lecture, and I got told that *breeders* did not have veterinary training, so therefore they weren't as knowledgeable :mad5: :mad5: :mad5: 

I am bl**dy fuming!!!


----------



## dexter

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I am seriously thinking about bl**dy changing vets, again
> 
> Where do they get off with their attitudes sometimes?? Just had a phone call to give me the results for Tau's PRA test, which I've had, both from Optigen and Idexx. At that point, I mentioned that I'd like to use a premate test, and had been recommended the Idexx premate, which is done by submitting bloods, to then be subjected to a lecture about how that test was for bitches that had trouble conceiving and 95% of bitches ovulate and should be mated days 11 and 13; he even told me off for trying to interject half way through said lecture, and I got told that *breeders* did not have veterinary training, so therefore they weren't as knowledgeable :mad5: :mad5: :mad5:
> 
> I am bl**dy fuming!!!


and vets know sod all about breeding!. my bitches are always late for mating up to 19 days.


----------



## Devil-Dogz

Vets truely believe that all matings/whelpings are text book? Hmm...


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## Sleeping_Lion

I know, I honestly am so cross with him, and will be having words!!


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## Blondie

Devil-Dogz said:


> Vets truely believe that all matings/whelpings are text book? Hmm...


Thats exactly what I thought! WOuld have liked to have seen him mate our cleo then, lol lol!!  :cornut:


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## Sleeping_Lion

Has anyone got the email address for the KC to send scanned copies of health test results through, and I'll send over Tau's optigen pra and bva results, be interesting to see how long it takes. Ta in advance 

Have now got the email address


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## swarthy

dexter said:


> and vets know sod all about breeding!. my bitches are always late for mating up to 19 days.


deary me - he would really have had a problem with mine as well (although a number of stud owners weren't convinced either)

2 litters from day 8/9 and day 8/10 matings - I had to start testing (in house with vet - not Idexx) testing at 3 days into the season with mother and daughter - although daughter ended up being a day 14/16 girl.


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## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> deary me - he would really have had a problem with mine as well (although a number of stud owners weren't convinced either)
> 
> 2 litters from day 8/9 and day 8/10 matings - I had to start testing (in house with vet - not Idexx) testing at 3 days into the season with mother and daughter - although daughter ended up being a day 14/16 girl.


Well the more I hear the less impressed I am with this guy, not just because of the poor advice, but just the way he lectured me about it. I am not a happy bunny with him at all!!


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## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well the more I hear the less impressed I am with this guy, not just because of the poor advice, but just the way he lectured me about it. I am not a happy bunny with him at all!!


I don't understand why he is being so uppity about it - it's easy money for them  Some vets have the kit and are experienced to be able to run the tests in-house - this might be worth asking around for as well.

If I have to go through full-premate testing with a bitch - it costs me over £200 (dependent obviously on when the bitch turns out to be ready for mating - but because mum was so early - we can't leave anything to chance)

With Halls - as a first time breeder, I was determined to use the tests - even though I KNEW she was a day 8 bitch from 4 years of watching her - that on it's own was met with more than a little incredulity from some experienced stud owners - the first time the stud dog was nearly an 18 hour round trip - she was ready for mating on the Saturday of a BH weekend. Because of the distances involved, I stayed overnight and we had back to back matings - and a litter of 8 pups who all survived.

On her second litter (again unbelievably a BH weekend) we had one test done and then took her for mating on the BH Monday without further testing (stud only roughly 4 hour round trip) - and again had two good ties and a litter of 8 surviving pups.

Luckily for me, I had asked the vets to get the longest possible date on the pre-mate testing, and we were able to use it for Hope a year on - I used every single test and the last one told me "Mate now" (stud dog was a 10 hour round trip).

This time, it is likely I will be using one of my own dogs, so probably won't test as it is as good to test the dogs, and if we miss, my girl is young enough to say "there's always next time".

But if travelling distances / mating an older bitch etc - personally I think it's imperative - my Halls is standing now and she's on day 3/4 - luckily despite their relative inexperience, neither of the boys are pestering her (although she is pestering them as usual ) - but with Hope - you could have knocked me down with a feather when the test said she was ready - as she had shown NO SIGNS at all 

==============================

The other thing to consider Jo is that in addition to you not being comfortable with his responses now, is that if / when she does get in whelp - your confidence with this particular vet is going to be rock bottom - and as a novice - even with a mentor on hand - confidence in your vet even when things go smoothly is absolutely paramount - because I can almost guarantee you will be on the phone asking for relatively simple advice - I have been with all three litters.

My vets aren't perfect and we've had more than one falling out over the years, but ultimately, they've listened to what I want (including standing up for pregnancy scans) and I've been doubly blessed with a fantastically supporting Out of Hours Service who waived a consultation fee for a peek of the puppies  and a small monetary and food donation from us  and still rang me with both weekend litters at regular intervals to ensure everything was OK - you can't ask for more than that - and I took great comfort and peace of mind from it.


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## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> I don't understand why he is being so uppity about it - it's easy money for them  Some vets have the kit and are experienced to be able to run the tests in-house - this might be worth asking around for as well.
> 
> If I have to go through full-premate testing with a bitch - it costs me over £200 (dependent obviously on when the bitch turns out to be ready for mating - but because mum was so early - we can't leave anything to chance)
> 
> With Halls - as a first time breeder, I was determined to use the tests - even though I KNEW she was a day 8 bitch from 4 years of watching her - that on it's own was met with more than a little incredulity from some experienced stud owners - the first time the stud dog was nearly an 18 hour round trip - she was ready for mating on the Saturday of a BH weekend. Because of the distances involved, I stayed overnight and we had back to back matings - and a litter of 8 pups who all survived.
> 
> On her second litter (again unbelievably a BH weekend) we had one test done and then took her for mating on the BH Monday without further testing (stud only roughly 4 hour round trip) - and again had two good ties and a litter of 8 surviving pups.
> 
> Luckily for me, I had asked the vets to get the longest possible date on the pre-mate testing, and we were able to use it for Hope a year on - I used every single test and the last one told me "Mate now" (stud dog was a 10 hour round trip).
> 
> This time, it is likely I will be using one of my own dogs, so probably won't test as it is as good to test the dogs, and if we miss, my girl is young enough to say "there's always next time".
> 
> But if travelling distances / mating an older bitch etc - personally I think it's imperative - my Halls is standing now and she's on day 3/4 - luckily despite their relative inexperience, neither of the boys are pestering her (although she is pestering them as usual ) - but with Hope - you could have knocked me down with a feather when the test said she was ready - as she had shown NO SIGNS at all
> 
> ==============================
> 
> The other thing to consider Jo is that in addition to you not being comfortable with his responses now, is that if / when she does get in whelp - your confidence with this particular vet is going to be rock bottom - and as a novice - even with a mentor on hand - confidence in your vet even when things go smoothly is absolutely paramount - because I can almost guarantee you will be on the phone asking for relatively simple advice - I have been with all three litters.
> 
> My vets aren't perfect and we've had more than one falling out over the years, but ultimately, they've listened to what I want (including standing up for pregnancy scans) and I've been doubly blessed with a fantastically supporting Out of Hours Service who waived a consultation fee for a peek of the puppies  and a small monetary and food donation from us  and still rang me with both weekend litters at regular intervals to ensure everything was OK - you can't ask for more than that - and I took great comfort and peace of mind from it.


I absolutely hear you! It's just unbelievable how he was with me on the phone, like I know absolutely b*gga all. It's not like I've been researching this for long enough, probably longer than he spent learning canine reproduction in vet school. If I don't feel confident with him, then I will be looking for another vets (I already have had a cursory look round and have found another one fairly close by), because I do not want to be in the position if things don't run smoothly, that I don't trust him. He's already given me the spiel about how it all runs smoothly the vast majority of the time, think about all those farm bred working dogs that give birth under a shed, blah, blah, blah, and I had to very much bite my tongue. I am looking around at other local vets and will phone and ask to speak to them a little bit about it. The nearest vet I do trust happens to be the ones who did her BVA eye test, at least they are a little more up on canine reproduction, but they are about 40 mins away, other than that, it would be my old vets which is a two hour trip, so too far away.

I know others who've had experience with this vet have commented on what a strange guy he is, so I know it's not just me, even if I can be an awkward baggage. Some vets seem to miss the point, they are my dogs, and I'll be damned if I allow someone to just tell me what to do when I'm not happy with their advice/course of action.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Results emailed across, I should know at the latest by next week I should think, whether they are on the KC databse.


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## Bijou

> I mentioned that I'd like to use a premate test, and had been recommended the Idexx premate, which is done by submitting bloods, to then be subjected to a lecture about how that test was for bitches that had trouble conceiving and 95% of bitches ovulate and should be mated days 11 and 13;


HA !!! ....my last litter was conceived on day 23 of my bitch's season - if I had'nt progesterone tested I would have missed it - my vet said that he'd never known a bitch ovulate so late and if she had pups from such a late mating he'd eat his beard - she had 10 !! - I took him a knife , fork , salt and pepper set over when I next visited :biggrin:

Your point about the increase in testing pushing up the cost of pups is a valid one - and in breeds where there is an easy alternative source of pups ( like Labs, GSD's or Border Collies ) ethical breeders may well find themselves undercut by those that do no testing and can thus sell their pups cheaper - it's a two edged sword - if good breeders cannot sell their pups they'll stop breeding leaving only BYB's and puppy farmers to fill the demand .


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## Sleeping_Lion

Bijou said:


> HA !!! ....my last litter was conceived on day 23 of my bitch's season - if I had'nt progesterone tested I would have missed it - my vet said that he'd never known a bitch ovulate so late and if she had pups from such a late mating he'd eat his beard - she had 10 !! - I took him a knife , fork , salt and pepper set over when I next visited :biggrin:
> 
> Your point about the increase in testing pushing up the cost of pups is a valid one - and in breeds where there is an easy alternative source of pups ( like Labs, GSD's or Border Collies ) ethical breeders may well find themselves undercut by those that do no testing and can thus sell their pups cheaper - it's a two edged sword - if good breeders cannot sell their pups they'll stop breeding leaving only BYB's and puppy farmers to fill the demand .


It'll be sod's law now that if I do use this vet and insist on premate testing, that Tau will be bang on ready to mate days 11 and 13 

I need to email the stud dog owner and see if they can recommend somewhere close by to possibly stay, or get in touch with the OH's friend up that way. I think I'd be daft to risk just the one mating after all this palava, so it looks like it's going to be hotel costs to add into the pot, it's a good job I couldn't give a rat's ass about the money side of it :lol:

The testing malarky is a funny one, many byb's etc, do cut corners with tests and undercut *good* breeders, because they spend next to nothing on preparing for, and raising a litter. And as we know, the view on cross breeds has been for many years they don't need testing, as the perception has been they will automatically be healthier than pedigrees because you are breeding out of a closed gene pool, which we know isn't really the case. Recent pressure on some breeders of cross breeds is forcing them to start going down the testing route, having said that, the one I have in mind are using one genetic test on their bitches (dogs already tested), where as I've had six tests done on Tau, the expensive hips and elbows, two bva eye tests, one cnm and one pra test. They are charging £850 (I believe) per puppy, my price is £600, and all pups will be sold under contract ensuring they should never end up in rescue.


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It'll be sod's law now that if I do use this vet and insist on premate testing, that Tau will be bang on ready to mate days 11 and 13
> 
> I need to email the stud dog owner and see if they can recommend somewhere close by to possibly stay, or get in touch with the OH's friend up that way. I think I'd be daft to risk just the one mating after all this palava, so it looks like it's going to be hotel costs to add into the pot, it's a good job I couldn't give a rat's ass about the money side of it :lol:
> 
> The testing malarky is a funny one, many byb's etc, do cut corners with tests and undercut *good* breeders, because they spend next to nothing on preparing for, and raising a litter. And as we know, the view on cross breeds has been for many years they don't need testing, as the perception has been they will automatically be healthier than pedigrees because you are breeding out of a closed gene pool, which we know isn't really the case. Recent pressure on some breeders of cross breeds is forcing them to start going down the testing route, having said that, the one I have in mind are using one genetic test on their bitches (dogs already tested), where as I've had six tests done on Tau, the expensive hips and elbows, two bva eye tests, one cnm and one pra test. They are charging £850 (I believe) per puppy, my price is £600, and all pups will be sold under contract ensuring they should never end up in rescue.


I had an absolutely infuriating conversation with somebody yesterday (during my work Christmas do) who knew sod all about breeding and giving it all "pedigree dogs are the work of the devil" rubbish. I was in a bad mood anyway, but I really gave him a piece of my mind and told him about Tau's (potential) litter and how much effort it costs the ethical and responsible people and that there definitely isn't any money to be made. :mad5:
He then went on about "aggressive" breeds, so I told him what a plonker he is and he should stop reading the daily mail. :frown2:
Slightly off thread. Sorry. Rant over.


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## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> I had an absolutely infuriating conversation with somebody yesterday (during my work Christmas do) who knew sod all about breeding and giving it all "pedigree dogs are the work of the devil" rubbish. I was in a bad mood anyway, but I really gave him a piece of my mind and told him about Tau's (potential) litter and how much effort it costs the ethical and responsible people and that there definitely isn't any money to be made. :mad5:
> He then went on about "aggressive" breeds, so I told him what a plonker he is and he should stop reading the daily mail. :frown2:
> Slightly off thread. Sorry. Rant over.


Lol, we've turned you into a dog bore! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Sleeping_Lion

Just a quick note, having scanned and sent the results through to the KC, Tau's health status is now fully up to date, so no problem with doing the PRA test via Idexx. I'm sure this is simply because Idexx do not process the test themselves, but send it to Optigen, as I received results from both Idexx and Optigen.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just a quick note, having scanned and sent the results through to the KC, Tau's health status is now fully up to date, so no problem with doing the PRA test via Idexx. I'm sure this is simply because Idexx do not process the test themselves, but send it to Optigen, as I received results from both Idexx and Optigen.


Glad they have gone on - strange though hat others who have sent their results in the same way haven't ever appeared on the DB


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## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> Glad they have gone on - strange though hat others who have sent their results in the same way haven't ever appeared on the DB


I wonder if they sent the Idexx results in and not the Optigen one?


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## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I wonder if they sent the Idexx results in and not the Optigen one?


No idea - not really my problem - I just know it was more than one person (logic says you would send the Optigen result) -unless of course, some 'disputes' on ownership of the results have now been resolved.

So knowing now your results are definitely showing - did you have to take blood? (somewhat reluctant to use mouthswabs unless unavoidable) - presumably they need the chip number?

How much did it cost? how long did it take? (mind working overtime here with another traunch of health-tests to pay for and this time from scratch!!!!)


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## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> No idea - not really my problem - I just know it was more than one person (logic says you would send the Optigen result) -unless of course, some 'disputes' on ownership of the results have now been resolved.
> 
> So knowing now your results are definitely showing - did you have to take blood? (somewhat reluctant to use mouthswabs unless unavoidable) - presumably they need the chip number?
> 
> How much did it cost? how long did it take? (mind working overtime here with another traunch of health-tests to pay for and this time from scratch!!!!)


It cost £46 all in, so no postage to pay, and yes, I opted for blood, you do have a choice. The chip is read at the time of the blood draw as well, to be submitted with the paperwork, none of which I had to fill in, it was all done for me. I'm not sure if you would get a discount for more than one test at at time, obviously worth asking.


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## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It cost £46 all in, so no postage to pay, and yes, I opted for blood, you do have a choice. The chip is read at the time of the blood draw as well, to be submitted with the paperwork, none of which I had to fill in, it was all done for me. I'm not sure if you would get a discount for more than one test at at time, obviously worth asking.


Do they do other tests? can't say it's a company I've ever looked at based what I know - I guess it could be useful for litter testing if you wanted to make a decision on a keeper - personally, I always try to avoid doing this as I don't want a carrier result to influence my decision on whether or not I keep a pup from a litter


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## Sleeping_Lion

They do other tests as well, their website is a bit technical for someone with my type of brain to make sense of easily, but I've found them really helpful when I've rung up in the past, which I plan to do on Monday funnily enough, to chat about their premate test  

If I do use my current vet, I won't be leaving anything to chance, I'll be driving up the M1 with the bloods to submit direct to the Idexx Laboratory at Wetherby, a bit more petrol costs to add on to this possible litter.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just a quick note, I think Swarthy mentioned it earlier in the thread, and worth noting again regarding worming. I do my dogs three times per year normally, and they don't have any problems. However, as I'd like to minimise risks for pups, I've been keeping Tau up to date with the *recommended* regime of worming, a wee bit more expense to add on to list of costs. There will be room for one more round of treatment before she goes to see Red (if we go that is), and we'll take it from there, and will be treating pups once they're old enough.


----------



## casey

swarthy said:


> Do they do other tests? can't say it's a company I've ever looked at based what I know - I guess it could be useful for litter testing if you wanted to make a decision on a keeper - personally, I always try to avoid doing this as I don't want a carrier result to influence my decision on whether or not I keep a pup from a litter


It may not be such a useful tool for choosing a 'keeper pup'. The results do not come back as quickly as a 20/20 clinic, nor are you e-mailed.. Results are sent to Idexx, who send you 'their' official certificate of the result.. the Optigen certificate can arrive up to 8 weeks later..

Last test I did was in Feb.. results 'issued' 8th April.. I recieved it around the 15th April by post.. in all I think 9 weeks from bloods drawn to certificate received.


----------



## swarthy

casey said:


> It may not be such a useful tool for choosing a 'keeper pup'. The results do not come back as quickly as a 20/20 clinic, nor are you e-mailed.. Results are sent to Idexx, who send you 'their' official certificate of the result.. the Optigen certificate can arrive up to 8 weeks later..
> 
> Last test I did was in Feb.. results 'issued' 8th April.. I recieved it around the 15th April by post.. in all I think 9 weeks from bloods drawn to certificate received.


 I wouldn't personally use it as a 'selection' tool anyway

However, sounds like you were unlucky with the speed of the results - my friend had her pups results back within a couple of weeks - long before the pups were due to leave.


----------



## Blitz

Ceearott said:


> I dont put the price on either, I normally put POA, and if its the first thing people ask, I get suspicious from the off, lol!
> 
> I think a lot can depend where you live too, I know rottie pups from breeders down South seem able to command a higher price, anything up to 800, and TBH, I'd probably struggle to get that up here in the North.
> 
> I tend not to put too much info on the website until the deed is done and pups are confirmed - I see it as tempting fate, lol lol!!


I am a bit behind on this thread but wanted to respond. Why do you get suspicious about someone asking the price. If I phone about a dog/horse or whatever the price is important. It is not the most important but why waste the breeder's time with more important questions if the price is more than I can afford. So long as the initial price question is followed up by sensible other questions what is wrong. 
I once phoned about a pony that was far more than I could afford (like double). It sounded in the advert exactly what I wanted so when I phoned I did not ask any questions except to say that I did not want to waste her time so I would tell her my price limit and carry on with the conversation if she wanted to or ring off if she did not want to consider it.
I know it is not the done thing to make offers on puppies, but it is the same principle .



swarthy said:


> deary me - he would really have had a problem with mine as well (although a number of stud owners weren't convinced either)
> 
> 2 litters from day 8/9 and day 8/10 matings - I had to start testing (in house with vet - not Idexx) testing at 3 days into the season with mother and daughter - although daughter ended up being a day 14/16 girl.


The first bitch I bred from was text book every time. Day 11 and 13 for mating and day 63 for whelping.

Second bitch was day 2 for mating (is that a record) and day 63 for whelping.

Another bitch that I tried and failed with was day 18 plus for mating.

this was all by eye, not tested.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just a quick update, I needed to ask about registering a litter and moving, I know a couple of folk who've done this, and would appreciate details. Tau is registered to me, under my affix, at my current address. She may well be mated while at this address, but most likely any pups born (if we go ahead) will be at my new address, so, how does it all work, any info much appreciated.

Also, and I may be crucified for this but what the heck, I notice another thread running about the age for a bitch to have a litter. I've left it as long as I care to dare with Tau, and truly, honestly, if we don't go ahead this next season, then she will be spayed. If it had been Indie, then I would say it would be too late for a first litter, with Tau, who took another 18 months to mature, I wouldn't say I feel comfortable, but then I don't think I ever would, but I do feel this is the last window of opportunity. She will be 5 1/2 by the time she has any prospective pups, and this will be her first and only litter.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just a quick update, I needed to ask about registering a litter and moving, I know a couple of folk who've done this, and would appreciate details. Tau is registered to me, under my affix, at my current address. She may well be mated while at this address, but most likely any pups born (if we go ahead) will be at my new address, so, how does it all work, any info much appreciated.


I kist registered the litter at the address I was living at - but then moved when the pups were 4 weeks old (I couldn't register them at the new address until we were in in case something happened.

You will need to change your address on your girl before you register the babies if you want them to have the new address on their paperwork - to me it didn't really matter - some of my buyers had already been to the old address, and they all knew I was moving.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Also, and I may be crucified for this but what the heck, I notice another thread running about the age for a bitch to have a litter. I've left it as long as I care to dare with Tau, and truly, honestly, if we don't go ahead this next season, then she will be spayed. If it had been Indie, then I would say it would be too late for a first litter, with Tau, who took another 18 months to mature, I wouldn't say I feel comfortable, but then I don't think I ever would, but I do feel this is the last window of opportunity. She will be 5 1/2 by the time she has any prospective pups, and this will be her first and only litter.


5.5 would personally be too old for me to take a first litter - although I have said I will allow a repeat visit to a 4.5 year old bitch if she ddidn't catch - so she would be around 5 years when mated - the bitch needs to be in absolute tip top condition - Hally had her second litter when she was 5.5 and sailed through it (as she did with her first litter) - Halls was at her happiest when she had babies and is definitely the matriarch in our house.

Hope had her only litter at 2 and I now know a) it was too young b) I should never have bred her in the first place - but we live and learn from these experiences and don't really know what will happen until it happens.

Providing she is fit, and the stud dog owner is happy to go along with it, and you have a good mentor, then I would think she would be OK.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> I kist registered the litter at the address I was living at - but then moved when the pups were 4 weeks old (I couldn't register them at the new address until we were in in case something happened.
> 
> You will need to change your address on your girl before you register the babies if you want them to have the new address on their paperwork - to me it didn't really matter - some of my buyers had already been to the old address, and they all knew I was moving.
> 
> 5.5 would personally be too old for me to take a first litter - although I have said I will allow a repeat visit to a 4.5 year old bitch if she ddidn't catch - so she would be around 5 years when mated - the bitch needs to be in absolute tip top condition - Hally had her second litter when she was 5.5 and sailed through it (as she did with her first litter) - Halls was at her happiest when she had babies and is definitely the matriarch in our house.
> 
> Hope had her only litter at 2 and I now know a) it was too young b) I should never have bred her in the first place - but we live and learn from these experiences and don't really know what will happen until it happens.
> 
> Providing she is fit, and the stud dog owner is happy to go along with it, and you have a good mentor, then I would think she would be OK.


Cheers Swarthy, I'll have a word with the KC I think in the new year, and see what I need to do for it all the paperwork to be right.

As far as age goes, Tau is incredibly fit, and always has been. I think if she'd been a bitch that matured early, like her big sis, then even thinking about a litter would be wrong. I'll have to suck it and see, I'm not 100% convinced I'll go ahead in any case, if we do, it's because I'm convinced she's fit to go through with it, the rest is sort of in place. Other than that, it's down to personal circumstances, that's what's held *us* back for so long, so fingers crossed that's not the case any more.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> As far as age goes, Tau is incredibly fit, and always has been. I think if she'd been a bitch that matured early, like her big sis, then even thinking about a litter would be wrong. I'll have to suck it and see, I'm not 100% convinced I'll go ahead in any case, if we do, it's because I'm convinced she's fit to go through with it, the rest is sort of in place. Other than that, it's down to personal circumstances, that's what's held *us* back for so long, so fingers crossed that's not the case any more.


Yes  there always seems to be 'something' that gets in the way - if I don't get a litter from Bronte this time, I suspect it's unlikely I will have another opportunity within her 'time window'


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just got off the phone with Idexx, who were really helpful. They're popping a kit in the post to me today, which contains enough for three tests. So, once Tau's in season, I'll be popping her to the vets to have bloods drawn, and whizzing up the M1/A1 to Wetherby to get the results asap. 

Would greatly appreciate (yet again) input from those who've used them before. I was thinking starting testing at day 5 or 6, and going from there?? Does that sound about right??


----------



## Quiddelbach

Have you any idea on her previous behaviour? I started on day 8 with Brooke, but she was showing no indication of being ready, and as i suspected she was a day 15/16 girl. 

With her it was a case of incompatability with the stud, she missed twice to him and took to his father but was always mated on the same days and jenson told me she was ready, which idexx confirmed.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Quiddelbach said:


> Have you any idea on her previous behaviour? I started on day 8 with Brooke, but she was showing no indication of being ready, and as i suspected she was a day 15/16 girl.
> 
> With her it was a case of incompatability with the stud, she missed twice to him and took to his father but was always mated on the same days and jenson told me she was ready, which idexx confirmed.


Her previous behaviour is pretty text book, but I just don't want to risk missing out, so am thinking around day 5/6, and going from there. If it's a dog that's somehow incompatible then I'm b*gga'd, but at least I'll have done everything I can!


----------



## swarthy

Quiddelbach said:


> Have you any idea on her previous behaviour? I started on day 8 with Brooke, but she was showing no indication of being ready, and as i suspected she was a day 15/16 girl.
> 
> With her it was a case of incompatability with the stud, she missed twice to him and took to his father but was always mated on the same days and jenson told me she was ready, which idexx confirmed.


Yes - this is a good indicator.

With Hally, we already suspected she was a day 8 bitch - so had to start testing at day 2/3 - and we were spot on.

Because of her mother, we also tested Hope early, but she was much more 'text-book' day 13/14 - I have also recently had dealings with a bitch who stood from day 12 but clearly wasn't anywhere near ready until day 16/18 - so they all vary - but if you are travelling to the stud, then I would give yourself as wide an opportunity as possible to ensure you don't miss it, as I know this is a one time opportunity really.

This time, I am hoping to use my own boy, and pretty confident now that both boys will let me know in no uncertain terms the girls are ready  - if they aren't and they happen to be with them, then it's a quick sniff and a walk off in disgust with their noses in the air


----------



## terencesmum

swarthy said:


> This time, I am hoping to use my own boy, and pretty confident now that both boys will let me know in no uncertain terms the girls are ready  - if they aren't and they happen to be with them, then it's a quick sniff and a walk off in disgust with their noses in the air


Hehe, this made me chuckle. :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Forms and sample stuff arrived, so now I've just got to wait for Tau, sort out accommodation (shouldn't be a problem) and we'll hopefully get two successful ties when she's ready!


----------



## terencesmum

Come on, Tau! We are all waiting for you now


----------



## brackensmom

good luck SL, you deserve this, you have researched and worked hard. And i think your girls are gorgeous.
Best of luck,


----------



## Tollisty

you do realise she will be very late having her season now :lol:


----------



## swarthy

Tollisty said:


> you do realise she will be very late having her season now :lol:


Grrr - tell me about it - not Tau - but I am waiting on my girl coming into season - the other three have been and gone and I am STILL waiting - it's been 9 months now (her mum has obviously told her what's in store for her )

Lots of season vibes for Tau and Bronte


----------



## Blondie

Ooh, sending you lots of good luck vibes!! :thumbup1:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Well she's been humping Rhuna over the last few days, a little bit more playfully than the usual excitement, and seems to have been scent marking a little more, all small signs that she's due in soon! 

Good luck with Bronte Swarthy, Tau's on a fitness regime to ensure she's as fit as a fiddle if/when the time comes!


----------



## Quiddelbach

Come on girls! 

Sending season vibes to you both >>>>>>>>>>>>


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well she's been humping Rhuna over the last few days, a little bit more playfully than the usual excitement, and seems to have been scent marking a little more, all small signs that she's due in soon!
> 
> Good luck with Bronte Swarthy, Tau's on a fitness regime to ensure she's as fit as a fiddle if/when the time comes!


  But Mr T and I need, eh, I mean, want to come and see you one more time before Tau's big adventure!!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> But Mr T and I need, eh, I mean, want to come and see you one more time before Tau's big adventure!!!!


She may well beat you to it from the looks of things, I'm hoping she holds off for a couple of weeks, but we'll see


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> She may well beat you to it from the looks of things, I'm hoping she holds off for a couple of weeks, but we'll see


B*gger!!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> B*gger!!!!


She's kept me guessing before, so I'll just have to take each day as it comes, and keep a close eye on her. Next time you see her, she may have little grunty piglets!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> She's kept me guessing before, so I'll just have to take each day as it comes, and keep a close eye on her. Next time you see her, she may have little grunty piglets!


Yeah!!! But then, that's AGES away!! I might have to sneak in your house for some Indie cuddles (and a black eye or 2 from Rhuna) when you are out (without Mr T, just in case).


----------



## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> Yeah!!! But then, that's AGES away!! I might have to sneak in your house for some Indie cuddles (and a black eye or 2 from Rhuna) when you are out (without Mr T, just in case).


Take Mr T......Staffiedor puppies could e the next big thing....£1,000 a pup (more if you get 'rare' colours) and it saves SL a trip!!


----------



## xhuskyloverx

Hope it all goes well for you and Tau doesn't keep you waiting too long!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Take Mr T......Staffiedor puppies could e the next big thing....£1,000 a pup (more if you get 'rare' colours) and it saves SL a trip!!


Ya see I'd go for Laffie's, as in you're having a .......


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Quick update, poor old Tau doesn't quite know what's hit her, the fitness regime has been upped a notch, which she's enjoying, as it involves me standing at the top of a steep slope and chucking a dummy for her to retrieve. It's great watching her tail wagging like fury as she hunts for exactly where it's fallen in the thick heather, she's currently flat out after a lunch time session. She is a pretty fit bitch in any case, but could do with losing a couple of kgs, and toning up before our trip to Scotland. 

I've also ordered liquid panacur for her, and for any possible pups, just the one lot as I'm not tempting fate, and can order more should I need it.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've also ordered liquid panacur for her, and for any possible pups, just the one lot as I'm not tempting fate, and can order more should I need it.


The liquid or the paste? I get through several tubes of paste when worming a litter as they have to have it for three days on the trot - but always buy it as I need it

The paste is in syringes and really easy to get into the pups mouths (always ensure you do it after feeding - it could save you a few sleepless nights from gripey tums as it is quite harsh - I am not convinced a liquid would be as easy to get into a pup once they know what's coming  - the faces they make are hilarious - but I would suspect a liquid would be trickier.

I worm my girls with Milbemax before mating and then don't worm them until after they have finished feeding and touch wood, never had a problem with worms. (I don't like to put any chemicals near them when pregnant / weaning)


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> The liquid or the paste? I get through several tubes of paste when worming a litter as they have to have it for three days on the trot - but always buy it as I need it
> 
> The paste is in syringes and really easy to get into the pups mouths (always ensure you do it after feeding - it could save you a few sleepless nights from gripey tums as it is quite harsh - I am not convinced a liquid would be as easy to get into a pup once they know what's coming  - the faces they make are hilarious - but I would suspect a liquid would be trickier.
> 
> I worm my girls with Milbemax before mating and then don't worm them until after they have finished feeding and touch wood, never had a problem with worms. (I don't like to put any chemicals near them when pregnant / weaning)


Thanks for that, someone's told me Drontal's easier, as this is one treatment for mum and that's it until the pups are on the ground, so I may swap to that, and get some paste for the pups


----------



## Quiddelbach

Brooke did not agree with panacur so used drontal with the pups to be on the safe side. Never had any problems with it, but you do get some lovely face pulling!

Like Swarthy, I worm her before mating and then after puppies have gone.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just thought I'd update this, Tau is showing behavioural signs of coming in to season, but no physical signs as yet. More excited humping, play with ears pricked and shoulder nudging, and then mad scampering and bum tucking, but no swollen vulva, and no discharge as yet!


----------



## moonviolet

Thanks for updating , she really is keeping us all on the edge of our seats. Turning blue from holding my breath :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

No movement on the *signs* bit, she's still more flirty, starting to leave little adverts about her impending condition, and is now humping Rhuna from the sheer excitement of hormones running through her veins on a regular basis, but no real swelling, just a small amount, and absolutely no discharge/blood. 

However, we have hit a brick wall with the stud dog, poor Red had to have an operation and will be out of the picture for the next few weeks, JUST when Madam Tau will probably choose to allow the backlog of hormones to be released and flush through her entire system making her tail positively helicopter over to one side of her bottom in delight. 

So, having madly researched for the last 48 hours, I'm now left with two choices.

The first is to line breed to a dog that has the Rocheby lines, as Red has, but he's more of a substantial dog and is black (carries chocolate and yellow). The second is an outcross to a dog that is chocolate, and not quite as substantial as Red even (going by the photo). Both are worked on shoots, and both have been shown with success. Also both happen to be EIC clear, something I've not tested Tau for as I'm not convinced the whole picture about EIC is yet known or understood.

Decisions, decisions, cost and distance is not a factor.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The first is to line breed to a dog that has the Rocheby lines, as Red has, but he's more of a substantial dog and is black (carries chocolate and yellow). The second is an outcross to a dog that is chocolate, and not quite as substantial as Red even (going by the photo). Both are worked on shoots, and both have been shown with success. Also both happen to be EIC clear, something I've not tested Tau for as I'm not convinced the whole picture about EIC is yet known or understood.
> 
> Decisions, decisions, cost and distance is not a factor.


The cost for both dogs is the same - not sure what photos you are looking at of Bailey - but he's far from a light dog 

I know both dogs and their progeny personally, both are nice dogs, personally, I know who I would go for though in your situation


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> The cost for both dogs is the same - not sure what photos you are looking at of Bailey - but he's far from a light dog
> 
> I know both dogs and their progeny personally, both are nice dogs, personally, I know who I would go for though in your situation


Just going by his photo on CD as opposed to the photo of Whiskey, which is from a different angle, so could well be deceiving. I'm still torn tbh, but will mull over the pros and cons over the next 24 hours and make a decision, somehow!


----------



## terencesmum

Can I ask what you mean by light? I saw a picture of Bailey and he looks a bit on the chunky side to me. 

*Runs and hides*

ETA: is weight a factor in choosing a stud? Is that something that is considered importent? Or is that all down to management? If you have a really chunky dog, structurally I mean, could there be potential problems whelping the pups?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> Can I ask what you mean by light? I saw a picture of Bailey and he looks a bit on the chunky side to me.
> 
> *Runs and hides*
> 
> ETA: is weight a factor in choosing a stud? Is that something that is considered importent? Or is that all down to management? If you have a really chunky dog, structurally I mean, could there be potential problems whelping the pups?


Lol, he is chunky, and it may be the photo that makes him just look slightly less substantial than both Red and Whiskey; but he's certainly a very nice example of a Labrador, hence the dilema!

None of them should carry extra weight, particularly Tau, which is why she's been on a diet to get trim in time (once she bloomin' decides to come into season that is). I think if you start going down the route of breeding larger boned, and larger boned dogs, you may end up with a problem, I certainly wouldn't think it's a good idea to put a very slight small working bred bitch to a much more substantial show bred dog, you are really asking for problems. I don't think Tau would have any problems, she's pretty fit and in the middle as it were


----------



## swarthy

terencesmum said:


> Can I ask what you mean by light? I saw a picture of Bailey and he looks a bit on the chunky side to me.
> 
> *Runs and hides*
> 
> ETA: is weight a factor in choosing a stud? Is that something that is considered importent? Or is that all down to management? If you have a really chunky dog, structurally I mean, could there be potential problems whelping the pups?


It's not weight, it's more to do with substance - both Whiskey and Bailey have plenty of substance, although possibly Whiskey a little more - neither carry any weight. Bailey is also worked regularly and Whiskey's daughters show phenomenal working potential - both sets of progeny are shown - Whiskey's son had Best Puppy at Crufts last year.

It's difficult to know whether Bailey's daughters have working potential as most bitch owners have been pet or show people.

Both however lovely dogs IMHO and both producing very nicely


----------



## noushka05

very best of luck with which ever stud you decide upon SL x


----------



## Afinmore

Have you had Tau colour tested Joanne? If not, I'd just assume that she carries yellow and go for a dog which doesn't ;-) And why not consider Whiskey's son?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

No, I've not had her colour tested, and given her direct parentage, I'd be incredibly surprised if she carried yellow at all. I have looked at Whiskey's son, I prefer Whiskey if I'm honest, the colours/shades thing isn't an issue for me, I'd keep a pup I felt was right, no matter what colour or shade of, it's just deciding between two good dogs that's the problem


----------



## swarthy

Afinmore said:


> Have you had Tau colour tested Joanne? If not, I'd just assume that she carries yellow and go for a dog which doesn't ;-) And why not consider Whiskey's son?


Why would you assume she carries yellow Fi? my darkest chocolate carries yellow - it shouldn't be any bearing on shade or eye colour

I had quite a long conversation with the colour testers about this and mixing chocolate and yellow - Tau's shading is far more likely to be to do with the dilution gene which can now be tested for.

I did suggest Whiskey's son to Jo. Has he been colour coat tested to see if he carries yellow?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> Why would you assume she carries yellow Fi? my darkest chocolate carries yellow - it shouldn't be any bearing on shade or eye colour
> 
> I had quite a long conversation with the colour testers about this and mixing chocolate and yellow - Tau's shading is far more likely to be to do with the dilution gene which can now be tested for.
> 
> *I did suggest Whiskey's son to Jo. Has he been colour coat tested to see if he carries yellow?*


He doesn't carry yellow according to the website; I think no matter which dog I end up using I will possibly both colour test, and also test for the dilute gene, simply because you cannot tell by looking at a dog what colour(s) or other genes they carry.


----------



## terencesmum

I have bravely volunteered to take on any pups of an *undesirable* colour.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> I have bravely volunteered to take on any pups of an *undesirable* colour.


I've told you before, just because her nickname is the ginger piglet, does not mean she will have ginger piglets  :lol:


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've told you before, just because her nickname is the ginger piglet, does not mean she will have ginger piglets  :lol:


But that would go so nicely with Anna's hair!! :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> But that would go so nicely with Anna's hair!! :lol:


Ahhhhh, one of these people who want a dog to match their furniture, floor tiles, car, childrens' hair........  

How many did you want? :lol:


----------



## Afinmore

Errr.... I didn't for one minute think that her shade had anything to do with carrying yellow. Her pedigree suggests she might though


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Afinmore said:


> Errr.... I didn't for one minute think that her shade had anything to do with carrying yellow. Her pedigree suggests she might though


Yes it does, if it's come from a couple of generations back. To be honest, coat colour and shade is the least of my considerations, I'm not taking a decision on *that* this time round, using the best dog I can find is what I'm after. As long as she doesn't have any three headed monsters then I'll be happy


----------



## swarthy

terencesmum said:


> I have bravely volunteered to take on any pups of an *undesirable* colour.


LMAO - people will love them whatever their shading - some people do like lighter coloured chocolates - unlike yellow, little is ever mentioned about chocolate shading - but most people have a personal preference, and for a lot of people that just happens to be dark chocolate.

Interestingly, apart from my own dogs, one of the darkest chocolates I've seen recently with a lovely dark eye was from a yellow mother.

If you are going to use Whiskey I would colour test personally - you do risk getting liver yellows - if you want to keep a choc, you might be narrowing down your options a little with all three colours in the litter.

I would never assume that a dog doesn't carry yellow (or chocolate) - these recessive genes can hand around for a long time and pop up when you least expect it

Tau's sire was from a litter of all three colours - so both his parents carried yellow, unless he's been colour coat tested, he could too, which means Tau could.


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ahhhhh, one of these people who want a dog to match their furniture, floor tiles, car, childrens' hair........
> 
> How many did you want? :lol:


The whole lot, ideally, but I don't think the OH would be keen on quite so many. 

If you could just throw "teacup" somewhere in the litter adverts, you'd make a fortune.


----------



## swarthy

Afinmore said:


> Errr.... I didn't for one minute think that her shade had anything to do with carrying yellow. Her pedigree suggests she might though


Some people do though  and I never know which way people think on the subject 

As per my above post, Tau's dad is from a litter of all three colours


----------



## LexiLou2

If she happens to have a pup that is beige with a purple and sort of minky coloured stripe in it, I'll have that one, i will match my wallpaper wonderfully!!!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> If she happens to have a pup that is beige with a purple and sort of minky coloured stripe in it, I'll have that one, i will match my wallpaper wonderfully!!!!!


I'll bear you in mind, although it sounds like you may have to wrestle Terencesmum for it


----------



## LexiLou2

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'll bear you in mind, although it sounds like you may have to wrestle Terencesmum for it


Well if its purple beige and mink stripey, its got my name all over it....I can camouflage it against the wallpaper and OH will never know it exists!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Decision made, I'm sticking to the line breeding this time round, but testing Tau to see if she carries yellow, so I at least have an idea what we may get!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Decision made, I'm sticking to the line breeding this time round, but testing Tau to see if she carries yellow, so I at least have an idea what we may get!


What does testing for colour involve? Blood test?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> What does testing for colour involve? Blood test?


It's a cheek swab I think


----------



## LexiLou2

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's a cheek swab I think


Wow, so they swab the dogs cheek and they can tell what colours the dog carries?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Wow, so they swab the dogs cheek and they can tell what colours the dog carries?


I hope so! In this instance, the test is specifically for yellow, so I won't know anything other than if she carries yellow; it's not to check if she's dilute for examle. 

I've never done one before, so I'll keep the thread updated with how it's done, the progress and results


----------



## LexiLou2

Wow, sound stupid but it so clever what they can do now a days. Does the same rule apply across all breeds, so for example Lexi is a dark brindle but her sister was red and her brother fawn, could you have her tested to see if she carried red for example? I obviously have no reason to ever do this, just wondered?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Wow, sound stupid but it so clever what they can do now a days. Does the same rule apply across all breeds, so for example Lexi is a dark brindle but her sister was red and her brother fawn, could you have her tested to see if she carried red for example? I obviously have no reason to ever do this, just wondered?


I've no idea tbh, I'd have to look at the specific tests available for staffies, should be easy enough to find out:

VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Canine - Canine Test by Breeds - Ordering List


----------



## LexiLou2

haha more luck than management, but you can test for the red/fawn colour, you can also test for solid colour vs brindle and pied and you can test for the 'mask' gene too. How interesting I just assumed with pups you got what you got to a certain extent.


----------



## swarthy

LexiLou2 said:


> haha more luck than management, but you can test for the red/fawn colour, you can also test for solid colour vs brindle and pied and you can test for the 'mask' gene too. How interesting I just assumed with pups you got what you got to a certain extent.


You do to a certain extent - but knowing the mixes of genes the dog carries can give you an indication of what you will get.

Black carrying yellow and chocolate to a dominant chocolate will produce just black and chocolate all the blacks carrying chocolate and some of the pups carrying yellow - the litter split should be 50/50 - and it was on my first litter (B carrying chocolate to chocolate) - my second litter (BYC to Chocolate) produced more chocolates than blacks

Statistically, by knowing what colours the dogs carry, you can 'guestimate' what you are likely to get in a litter - but of course, mother nature likes to throw us the odd surprise

One litter (not mine) - BYC to chocolate carrying yellow produced all yellow puppies

Another litter (again not mine) BYC to BYC produced all black puppies.

Yellow to yellow will always produce yellow

Chocolate to chocolate will only ever produce chocolate (and yellow if both parents carry yellow - any yellows from such a pairing will have liver pigment.

I can't tell you anything about other means of coat colour inheritance - but where testable for, there will probably be patterns of who can produce what dependent on what colour the parents are and what colours they carry.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I *think* she's showing signs of a bit of pinkish discharge tonight, will check a bit more thoroughly in better light in a little while


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I *think* she's showing signs of a bit of pinkish discharge tonight, will check a bit more thoroughly in better light in a little while


If she is doing things by the book, she should be ready to stand around the 19th. :lol: What did I tell you!!
I hope you do have a contingency plan for Queen Rhuna.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> If she is doing things by the book, she should be ready to stand around the 19th. :lol: What did I tell you!!
> I hope you do have a contingency plan for Queen Rhuna.


I know, don't I just know it, she could have left it until Friday to start showing signs, but no, madam HAS to scupper Rhuna's potential show debut success, possibly


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I know, don't I just know it, she could have left it until Friday to start showing signs, but no, madam HAS to scupper Rhuna's potential show debut success, possibly


Could Andrew not take her down? Or Heather even?? I hope you realise, you have spoilt mine and Anna's plans for the 19th now!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> Could Andrew not take her down? Or Heather even?? I hope you realise, you have spoilt mine and Anna's plans for the 19th now!!!


If I'd had a cup of tea, it would have been spat all over the laptop then! Andrew, take Rhuna to a *show* 

Ummm, no, I'm just gonna have to hope that Tau's ideal dates fall either side of the 19 Feb, by my calculations, if she's in proper tomorrow, it should be the 18 and 20 Feb judging from where she's been with her previous seasons, but the premate test will really tell me more accurately.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I *think* she's showing signs of a bit of pinkish discharge tonight, will check a bit more thoroughly in better light in a little while


Can she send some vibes down our way please so I can make a decision on what I am going to do !!!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If I'd had a cup of tea, it would have been spat all over the laptop then! Andrew, take Rhuna to a *show*
> 
> Ummm, no, I'm just gonna have to hope that Tau's ideal dates fall either side of the 19 Feb, by my calculations, if she's in proper tomorrow, it should be the 18 and 20 Feb judging from where she's been with her previous seasons, but the premate test will really tell me more accurately.


I know, I know, Andrew was a bit of a long shot. :lol:

I hope you and little Madam are feeling really bad for spoiling a 3-year-old's weekend.  And mine, too. :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> I know, I know, Andrew was a bit of a long shot. :lol:
> 
> I hope you and little Madam are feeling really bad for spoiling a 3-year-old's weekend.  And mine, too. :lol:


Terribly bad, but I still get the Stollen, right?


----------



## LexiLou2

it's all about the Stollen!!!!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Terribly bad, but I still get the Stollen, right?


But only because I like you.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Tissue tested her earlier, definitely just a trace of blood there!  

Swarthy, let's hope it kicks off for you as well soon, the waiting bit is awful!!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Tissue tested her earlier, definitely just a trace of blood there!
> 
> Swarthy, let's hope it kicks off for you as well soon, the waiting bit is awful!!


God, I might faint with excitement!!!! :w00t:


----------



## LexiLou2

:w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t::w00t:


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Tissue tested her earlier, definitely just a trace of blood there!
> 
> Swarthy, let's hope it kicks off for you as well soon, the waiting bit is awful!!


Tell me - she's 3 months late already - the others have all been and done with theirs - and my eldest looks like she's going to come in again and STILL no sign from madam


----------



## RoobyRoo

What an interesting thread, although I did skim the last few pages as it's quite long. 

Just goes to show how little most people know about what is really involved in breeding. I wonder how many puppies advertised on a puppy website would have come from such a carefully planned mating :nonod:

I have a flat coat who is a pet first and foremost. I bought him with a vague intention of putting him out to stud but have never got my hopes up. The odds are against him if you think about it, when there is so much to consider. He is still a baby (11 months) and I've got a good few years before I decide and that decision may not even by as a result of him being of quality stock. 

I hope things work out with your bitch Sleeping Lion, whichever way they work out she will always be a much loved pet, I'm sure.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

RoobyRoo said:


> What an interesting thread, although I did skim the last few pages as it's quite long.
> 
> Just goes to show how little most people know about what is really involved in breeding. I wonder how many puppies advertised on a puppy website would have come from such a carefully planned mating :nonod:
> 
> I have a flat coat who is a pet first and foremost. I bought him with a vague intention of putting him out to stud but have never got my hopes up. The odds are against him if you think about it, when there is so much to consider. He is still a baby (11 months) and I've got a good few years before I decide and that decision may not even by as a result of him being of quality stock.
> 
> I hope things work out with your bitch Sleeping Lion, whichever way they work out she will always be a much loved pet, I'm sure.


Thank you, that's such a lovely post to read first thing on a morning, and yes, she is very much loved and always will be, no matter what 

You're a braver soul than me, I do know folk who've done it the *other* way round, ie gone for dogs and proven their worth etc, before using at stud, but despite what many think, that *should* carry just as much, if not more responsibility in a different way. A successful stud dog that's even just mildly popular will produce many more litters than a bitch, if you imagine a dog that's visited half a dozen times per year by good quality bitches (hopefully) it's easy to see how they are capable of racking up an awful lot more progeny than the bitches that come to them.

I've got a flatcoat bitch out of Gowran Mars Black at Varingo, and I'm waiting to see how she develops, so far she's certainly living up to the clownish reputation, but then she's about 8 months old now, so nowhere near mature for a flatcoat! Good luck with your boy, I'll have to have a scout around when I've got a min to see if you've posted any pics 

------------------------------------------

Swarthy, sending all the spare season vibes I can muster now that Tau's showing signs of being in, not tissue tested her again yet today, will do a bit later when the light's a bit better, I'm off out to work shortly, bah humbug!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Well I've tissue tested her tonight, and she's definitely bleeding, so she's definitely in season, and I'll be booking her to have her bloods drawn; Day 5 will be Saturday, and I'm not sure Idexx will be open then, may have to give them a call, as that's when I planned the first test for........ I think she's done this on purpose, if there could possibly have been a more awkward time


----------



## LexiLou2

How exciting.

You could be a grandma soon!! :001_tongue:


----------



## Quiddelbach

They are open Sat morning, so if you tested on Friday, you could get results on Sat, that would tell you where she is in the scheme of things


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Quiddelbach said:


> They are open Sat morning, so if you tested on Friday, you could get results on Sat, that would tell you where she is in the scheme of things


Friday would be Day 3 if I go by actual bleeding, rather than slight pinkish mucus discharge. Day 5, which is when I wanted to first test, is (of course) Sunday 

I'll be driving the results up there myself as well, so I'll get them the same day, or should do, fingers crossed!

Now the quandry is do I leave it till the Monday, she's a complete unknown, but has never shown signs of standing that early on? Or do I go for a test Friday/Saturday? Might be worth speaking to Idexx in any case to see if I could sneak in a test on Saturday??


----------



## moonviolet

Sorry i know this is useless fluff on your thread, but it's so exciting. Thanks for sharing each step of the way


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Friday would be Day 3 if I go by actual bleeding, rather than slight pinkish mucus discharge. Day 5, which is when I wanted to first test, is (of course) Sunday
> 
> I'll be driving the results up there myself as well, so I'll get them the same day, or should do, fingers crossed!
> 
> Now the quandry is do I leave it till the Monday, she's a complete unknown, but has never shown signs of standing that early on? Or do I go for a test Friday/Saturday? Might be worth speaking to Idexx in any case to see if I could sneak in a test on Saturday??


Since little Madam has been known to be awkward, I'd probably test early, just to be sure. :blush:


----------



## claire & the gang

She has half the forum waiting on her lol....good luck


----------



## BlueBeagle

claire & the gang said:


> She has half the forum waiting on her lol....good luck


So true :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Half thought about posting this, and half not. 

For those thinking about breeding a pedigree dog, if you have a conscience, think again. Not just the health tests to take into consideration, not just the temperament of your bitch, the conformation, her ability even. But is her coat colour the right shade, how can you quantify her ability, are her pasterns too weak, is she too long in the body? I could go on about individual criticisms and snide remarks. some of it is obviously just bitchy, and it makes me sad to be honest. If this is the state of things as far as some breeders are concerned, it can only bode ill for any breed, let alone the one I really love and hold dear. 

Then I read about cross breeds, the be all and end all of breeding, will solve all our problems overnight. I wish just one person who breeds cross breeds would post a thread similar, to give me hope they're out there even, they're utilising the tests and taking the same considerations into account, and possibly even getting the same flack. Anyone?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

First bloods dropped off at Idexx this morning, should have the results this afternoon. I'm not expecting it to say she's at all anywhere near ready, I hope she isn't as I'm on nights for this week, so could be interesting! At least I now know where the new vets are, and where the Idexx laboratory is, if anyone ever wants directions for the latter just shout.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> First bloods dropped off at Idexx this morning, should have the results this afternoon. I'm not expecting it to say she's at all anywhere near ready, I hope she isn't as I'm on nights for this week, so could be interesting! At least I now know where the new vets are, and where the Idexx laboratory is, if anyone ever wants directions for the latter just shout.


Good luck  judging by the fact that Dylan's nose now seems to be permanently attached to Bronte's rear end, and Mozzie is getting a wee bit noisier - I suspect Bronte won't be far behind


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Thanks Swarthy, fingers crossed for Bronte too!

Tau's progesterone levels are very low, as expected really, but good there are no surprises. I'll be taking another set of bloods up to Idexx on Friday, we're thinking she's going to keep us guessing till Monday, but will see what Friday brings, if there's a slight rise, I'll be leaving it till Monday to test, if there's a sharp rise, it may well mean having a think about retesting Saturday morning first thing. 

-------------------------------------------------------------

Just for anyone reading and wondering how much all of this is costing, as well as the health tests done so far, which, for those who've skipped to the end are hip scores and elbow grades, dna tests done are for CNM and PRA, and she's got a current clear eye certificate. 

The coat colour test is $55, not sure how much that translates to in £'s; the premate with Idexx costs £28.20 each time I ask for her bloods to be processed, the blood draw at the vets is a little over £19, and then there's the petrol to drive the bloods up to Idexx (probably about £15 each time at a guess), I could use Royal Mail, but I'm keen not to entrust them with this *just in case*. I'm looking at at least another two tests I think to ensure I get her bang on when she's ovulating, and then there's the trip across to North Wales, twice, to see the stud dog. 

I've not yet bought a whelping box, heat lamp etc, although I've got my eyes on the things I want to buy, and the cost of that runs into several hundred pounds. And I've got enough stashed away in case there's any medical emergencies, which I'm hoping won't be needed because I want everything to go as smoothly as possible for her. 

Good job I've got a load of overtime on atm


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The coat colour test is $55, not sure how much that translates to in £'s; the premate with Idexx costs £28.20 each time I ask for her bloods to be processed, the blood draw at the vets is a little over £19, and then there's the petrol to drive the bloods up to Idexx (probably about £15 each time at a guess), I could use Royal Mail, but I'm keen not to entrust them with this *just in case*. I'm looking at at least another two tests I think to ensure I get her bang on when she's ovulating, and then there's the trip across to North Wales, twice, to see the stud dog.


It works out marginally cheaper if you have a reliable vet who can do the tests in-house - a kit of 6 tests costs me £110 and then £12.50 per time for drawing the blood and running the test.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> It works out marginally cheaper if you have a reliable vet who can do the tests in-house - a kit of 6 tests costs me £110 and then £12.50 per time for drawing the blood and running the test.


My new vets do offer the in house service, unfortunately, I've yet to gauge just how reliable they are. I did chat to them about it, but just thought since I'd already made the plans to use Idexx I'd prefer to go ahead with that than risk it at this stage.

Maybe the next time round, if there's a next time round, ever, lol!


----------



## shetlandlover

Good luck! You deserve this after all the hard work and planning you have put in.

I was going to use Idexx but fit and fertile do progesterone tests, I can drive the blood to them because they are close. Means I get the results same day rather than if I posted. £14 blood drawn, £23.50 per progesterone test.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I'll be driving up the next two lots as well, as I want the results the same day, and I don't really trust Royal Mail with them  

I'm not sure I could take the suspense of posting something like this, maybe it becomes old hat to those breeders who've been there a few times with breeding litters, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to put them in the post box even! :lol:


----------



## shetlandlover

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'll be driving up the next two lots as well, as I want the results the same day, and I don't really trust Royal Mail with them
> 
> I'm not sure I could take the suspense of posting something like this, maybe it becomes old hat to those breeders who've been there a few times with breeding litters, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to put them in the post box even! :lol:


I know the feeling. 

Are you getting the CHV afterwards?

Have you got far to travel to stud? Sorry for all the questions, its very exciting!


----------



## PennyGC

I'm so lucky as I have a dog who can tell me when the bitch is ready  saves all that blood taking and waiting...


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

shetlandlover said:


> I know the feeling.
> 
> Are you getting the CHV afterwards?
> 
> Have you got far to travel to stud? Sorry for all the questions, its very exciting!


Not decided re CHV, that's my next decision!

Stud dog is now in North Wales, as the original choice was injured in the gale force winds a few weeks back, which ended up in an operation - these things are sent to try us, lol! It's actually a much more straight forward trip, but will mean travelling across twice, instead of going and staying over, so probably similar costs involved with petrol, my accommodation last time would have been with a friend, in fact it's a shame I'm not going now as I was looking forward to it.



PennyGC said:


> I'm so lucky as I have a dog who can tell me when the bitch is ready  saves all that blood taking and waiting...


The OH has three proven stud dogs available for me to *borrow* to see if they can give us a clue, and if it weren't for the fact this is my very last chance, I would probably go with their recommendations, but hopefully, by utilising every last bit of help I can get, even possibly one of his dogs, we will get at least one mating at the right time.


----------



## Quiddelbach

Good luck to you, everything crossed x


----------



## Blondie

SL - just wanted to pass on my good luck, and I hope you get the mating you want at the right time.

I know what you are going through, lol! 

I remember our first litter, the stud was in North Wales too, and its a heck of a journey so we got Cleo tested at the vets 4 times and each time said not yet. By Day 20 I said regardless of todays results I think we should go tomorrow, result said not yet but we went anyway and got a good tie. Because Cleo was a Maiden, stud dog owner said she'd be happier if we came back the next day so we did, and neither dog was interested, lol lol!! 

Cleo went on to have 9 pups, 7 survived. So dont worry if you only get one tie, thats all we've ever done and Cleo has produced everytime


----------



## Cay

Get ready for your nerves to be tested, good luck .


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I forgot to post the results, but the tests on Monday came back with progesterone levels very low, not really a surprise, but better safe than sorry. 

She's booked in for another trip to the vets tomorrow morning, followed by a journey back up to Idexx with the bloods to have them processed again. I feel like a zombie already as I'm on nights this week, it's no fun wandering around on track in the pitch black but at least that means I've got the time to taxi Tau round and get the tests sorted. I have a feeling it will be Monday before she's ready for that first trip to the stud dog, but we'll see.


----------



## portiaa

Best of luck with everything


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just one very slight update, we had a very brief *flag* this morning, where Tau started flirting with Rhuna and flipped her tail right over, but then resorted to rolling on her back, we're getting there!


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just one very slight update, we had a very brief *flag* this morning, where Tau started flirting with Rhuna and flipped her tail right over, but then resorted to rolling on her back, we're getting there!


If you are confident you know her behaviour - pay as much attention to it as to the test results.

With my second litter with Halls, the Saturday test said re-test in 48 hours - which was the BH Monday - there was no doubt in my mind she was ready even though we couldn't test - we went on the Monday and had a good tie, then went back on the Wednesday and had another good tie (and I was able to save my pre-mate kit for my next litter)


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> If you are confident you know her behaviour - pay as much attention to it as to the test results.
> 
> With my second litter with Halls, the Saturday test said re-test in 48 hours - which was the BH Monday - there was no doubt in my mind she was ready even though we couldn't test - we went on the Monday and had a good tie, then went back on the Wednesday and had another good tie (and I was able to save my pre-mate kit for my next litter)


I'm fairly confident re her behaviour, the test is really just another confirmation that she's there or there abouts with ovulating, and that she's not saying one thing with her bum, and another with her ovaries


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm fairly confident re her behaviour, the test is really just another confirmation that she's there or there abouts with ovulating, and that she's not saying one thing with her bum, and another with her ovaries


Yes, for all we know, she's a right little floozie. :lol:


----------



## LexiLou2

So she is due a re-test tomorrow, if the results show a significant difference, do you bascially go right, nows the time, off we go, or do you have a 'window of oppertunity'. Like with women I believe there is a three day window where you are at your most fertile, does the same apply in dogs, I assume so as you can have multiple ties. I just wondered if was a case of get the results back, all systems go we are leaving now, or if you get them back late tomorrow afternoon you leave it until first thing Saturday morning.


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> So she is due a re-test tomorrow, if the results show a significant difference, do you bascially go right, nows the time, off we go, or do you have a 'window of oppertunity'. Like with women I believe there is a three day window where you are at your most fertile, does the same apply in dogs, I assume so as you can have multiple ties. I just wondered if was a case of get the results back, all systems go we are leaving now, or if you get them back late tomorrow afternoon you leave it until first thing Saturday morning.


She'd leave it until Saturday afternoon so that I can come along.  :lol: (kidding!!)


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I'm expecting a slight rise in progesterone levels, and will ask the advice of the guy they've got there who processes bloods, as he's done this thousands of times and will be able to guide me more accurately. I will get the results tomorrow afternoon, as they process them the same day they get them, and phone you. I'm actually expecting to test again on Monday, and be told that either ovulation is imminent, or get in your car and drive her there today. Yes to the fertile window bit, not sure exactly how long it is from memory, but will be going back for a second mating 48 hours after the first hopefully successful one, to give us the best chance of fertilising any eggs.


----------



## LexiLou2

I find it all really interesting but just makes me wonder, I work with a woman who had two litters from her cocker spaniel, but I have no idea how she manages to successfully get her pregnant, as she just went to the stud dog, at the weekend when she wasn't at work, I assume its going to be more luck than management.
She obviously hadn't put anywhere near as much thought and work into her litter.
I wonder if Tau will surprise you and get you re-arranging your whole weekend? Mind you, I suppose you know your dog better than anyone.

ETA - Thanks for taking the time to answer my stupid questions.


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> I find it all really interesting but just makes me wonder, I work with a woman who had two litters from her cocker spaniel, but I have no idea how she manages to successfully get her pregnant, as she just went to the stud dog, at the weekend when she wasn't at work, I assume its going to be more luck than management.
> She obviously hadn't put anywhere near as much thought and work into her litter.
> I wonder if Tau will surprise you and get you re-arranging your whole weekend? Mind you, I suppose you know your dog better than anyone.
> 
> ETA - Thanks for taking the time to answer my stupid questions.


Well, not that I know Jo's itinerary to the minute, but even if the test came back tomorrow to show a significant spike, my guess would be to take her to the stud on Saturday, show Rhuna on Sunday and then go again on Monday.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Lol, I'm going to have to employ you to keep my diary Steph  

I doubt very much if there will be a significant rise in progesterone levels, but if there were, I'd be dashing off on Saturday as Steph says, and back again on Monday, again, taking the advice of the guy who processes these tests, he's seen it all before so many times. I'll also be looking at Tau to see her behaviour, she generally *looks* fairly obvious, so I'll be making sure that correlates with what the tests are saying. And then I've got the option of using a dog or three to confirm both the test and her behaviour, so between those three options, and hopefully getting two matings 48 hours apart, we should get there, I hope.

And no question is a daft question when you want to learn about something  

x


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Lol, I'm going to have to employ you to keep my diary Steph
> 
> x


It's me being German. I can't help being super efficient. :lol:

I charge very little as well. Only a Tau piglet and Bear kisses.


----------



## swarthy

LexiLou2 said:


> I find it all really interesting but just makes me wonder, I work with a woman who had two litters from her cocker spaniel, but I have no idea how she manages to successfully get her pregnant, as she just went to the stud dog, at the weekend when she wasn't at work, I assume its going to be more luck than management.
> She obviously hadn't put anywhere near as much thought and work into her litter.
> I wonder if Tau will surprise you and get you re-arranging your whole weekend? Mind you, I suppose you know your dog better than anyone.
> 
> ETA - Thanks for taking the time to answer my stupid questions.


They are not stupid questions at all, that's how we all learn, and continue to learn - few people know it all - I still consider myself very much a novice compared to a lot of people.

The lady at work might have been lucky - she may be highly experienced - quite a few of the experienced breeders I know don't use any sort of pre-mate testing

This time, I am relying on my boys to tell me when she's ready (eeek!)

At the moment, there's lots of sniffing going on, but nothing more. My eldest bless her is getting quite indignant that the boys are ignoring her :lol: I desperately need to get her spayed, but with 4.5 monthly seasons, I don't have that big a window  she's such a tart she would mate the table leg if she thought she could get away with it 

I also worry about changing the pack dynamics - some friends have had terrible "pack" problems when they've neutered one or more of their dogs 

With 6 indoor dogs, I can really do without any change in the pack dynamics !!! but I also know that the risk of pyo increases as they get older - so sometime soon, the 6 and 9 year old will be neutered, and I'll just keep my fingers crossed we don't have any problems.


----------



## LexiLou2

Second test today....looking forward to hearing the results.


----------



## swarthy

swarthy said:


> They are not stupid questions at all, that's how we all learn, and continue to learn - few people know it all - I still consider myself very much a novice compared to a lot of people.


What I should also have said - is that some questions do become stupid when the person asking them has a litter due within days or a bitch mid season who they want to mate like NOW and have done no health-tests and no research - but generally, if someone is asking outside that window, then there really are no stupid questions.

No-one will ever know it all - and even people who've bred many litters before will come up against things they've never seen before - that's all part of the learning curve.

I can remember an experienced breeder friend saying to me once, I treat every time as my first time, because you don't know what's going to happen until it actually happens.

Even bitches who have whelped quickly and easily previously can throw a wobbler and encounter difficulties they've not had with previous litter(s).

Similarly, bitches who went through the mill and didn't take to motherhood first time around can be naturals the second time.

Personally, I wasn't prepared to take that chance when my girl didn't take to motherhood (in fact, motherhood ruined her - the worst days work I've ever done was taking a litter from her ) - but of course you don't know that at the time, and one of the downsides the books don't tell you about 

This is what many people don't realise, people assume their bitch will make a good mother - in reality, they will find out when mum starts whelping the babies, by then it's too late.

My eldest bitch was never happier than when she was a mother - she adored everything about it and was still feeding the remaining babies at 11 weeks and trying to clean up after them.

Her eldest daughter OTOH wasn't good during labour - initially totally freaking out (7 x 21oz pups may have played a role in that though )

She was an OK mother - but she didn't clean up after her babies even when they were tiny and stopped feeding them completely at 4 weeks - although she did used to take food to them which was very sweet and probably what they would do in the wild - the minute they had teeth - there was no way they were coming near her - she was back to her pre-pregnancy figure at 8 weeks 

Despite that, physically, she did give the babies a good start in life - she didn't gain an ounce of personal fat - everything she ate went to feed her babies - both during pregnancy and after whelping.

These stories, and those where people lose their beloved bitches during whelping are the things prospective breeders do need to know about - unfortunately, it's often the ones that do things on a wing and a prayer get away with it - or they don't believe it until it happens to them - then they start to become advocates for the negative side of breeding - sadly, ofen the only time messages get across properly when something bad happens to them or someone they know


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just back from the round trip to vets/Idexx, and have a busy afternoon, but will update as soon as I hear anything. She's starting to flag a little more often, not seriously though, just lifting her tail over


----------



## LexiLou2

swarthy said:


> What I should also have said - is that some questions do become stupid when the person asking them has a litter due within days or a bitch mid season who they want to mate like NOW and have done no health-tests and no research - but generally, if someone is asking outside that window, then there really are no stupid questions.


DOn't worry there is no chance I will ever breed, as lovley as I think it would be to bring a litter of (quality) puppies into the world, I'm too much of a soft touch and would struggle to let them go.

That said knowledge is power, and having been burnt when we bought Lexi, and ending up with a lovely dog plauged by health issues, I think the more I know about the whole breeding process from health tests to having the litter, the more informed I will be next time I get a pup.


----------



## claire & the gang

Results this afternoon then Hopefully if she starting to flag things should be on the way up


----------



## Amy-manycats

Ooh its all getting so close now, very exciting have you decided which stud now ( presumeably and I missed it, everything being so close now)


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

The results are in, her progesterone levels are still very low, tissue tested her as well, the discharge is starting to turn straw colours, but Larry the guy at Idexx thinks we're perhaps as much as five days away yet, retest on Monday. 

If I had gone with the advice from the other vet, I would be driving her to see the stud dog tomorrow and Monday, and may well have ended up with absolutely no chance of a litter, to say I'm still cross with him is a slight understatement!! Interesting point as well, is that Larry sees quite a lot of Labrador bitches that are late ovulaters, so it really is not that unusual for them to be ready past the 13 day mark. 

I can't remember if I'd put the name of the stand in dog I'm using, it's Balrion Weathertop John Barleycorn, he's black carrying chocolate and yellow, so if Tau carries yellow there could be all three colours in the litter. I am just in the process of completing the form for Vetgen, an will take cheek swabs from Tau to send off to find out if she does indeed carry yellow, so I at least know what we might expect in there.


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The results are in, her progesterone levels are still very low, tissue tested her as well, the discharge is starting to turn straw colours, but Larry the guy at Idexx thinks we're perhaps as much as five days away yet, retest on Monday.
> 
> If I had gone with the advice from the other vet, I would be driving her to see the stud dog tomorrow and Monday, and may well have ended up with absolutely no chance of a litter, to say I'm still cross with him is a slight understatement!! Interesting point as well, is that Larry sees quite a lot of Labrador bitches that are late ovulaters, so it really is not that unusual for them to be ready past the 13 day mark.
> 
> I can't remember if I'd put the name of the stand in dog I'm using, it's Balrion Weathertop John Barleycorn, he's black carrying chocolate and yellow, so if Tau carries yellow there could be all three colours in the litter. I am just in the process of completing the form for Vetgen, an will take cheek swabs from Tau to send off to find out if she does indeed carry yellow, so I at least know what we might expect in there.


5 days you say? That would be Wednesday? I'm free that day.  :lol:


----------



## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> 5 days you say? That would be Wednesday? I'm free that day.  :lol:


Birthing partner, there from conception to delivery and onwards?


----------



## BlueBeagle

LexiLou2 said:


> Birthing partner, there from conception to delivery and onwards?


Swarthy, think you might need to count the puppies everytime Terencesmum visits  :lol:


----------



## swarthy

BlueBeagle said:


> Swarthy, think you might need to count the puppies everytime Terencesmum visits  :lol:


:lol: - It's SleepingLion who lives near Terencesmum - :lol: - forewarned is forearmed :lol:

If I get any enquiries from Yorkshire way, I will vet them very carefully


----------



## Quiddelbach

Just a note of caution on levels, not that I have any doubts about them being accurate.

Brooke was very low on the Friday, and the Monday was a BH . I was told to re test on tues/ results wed. By sat night jenson was howling and by tues we had 2 matings, resulting in 12 puppies. 

Those levels can shoot up so watch behaviour too, and at least you can test on Monday


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Quiddelbach said:


> Just a note of caution on levels, not that I have any doubts about them being accurate.
> 
> Brooke was very low on the Friday, and the Monday was a BH . I was told to re test on tues/ results wed. By sat night jenson was howling and by tues we had 2 matings, resulting in 12 puppies.
> 
> Those levels can shoot up so watch behaviour too, and at least you can test on Monday


Oh yes, I am watching behaviour closely, Larry was so helpful again, and although he's indicating it might be Wednesday, he was keen to retest Monday just in case. I've also got a couple of dogs available to borrow to indicate whether or not she's *ready*


----------



## terencesmum

swarthy said:


> :lol: - It's SleepingLion who lives near Terencesmum - :lol: - forewarned is forearmed :lol:
> 
> If I get any enquiries from Yorkshire way, I will vet them very carefully


I have no idea what you could mean. :aureola::aureola::aureola:

I am lovely, honest.


----------



## swarthy

Quiddelbach said:


> Just a note of caution on levels, not that I have any doubts about them being accurate.
> 
> Brooke was very low on the Friday, and the Monday was a BH . I was told to re test on tues/ results wed. By sat night jenson was howling and by tues we had 2 matings, resulting in 12 puppies.
> 
> Those levels can shoot up so watch behaviour too, and at least you can test on Monday


Exactly the same thing happened with Hallls as per one of my earlier posts - and like you, it was a BH on the Monday - we just went straight to the stud dog and then back again on the Wednesday and had a litter of 9.

Luckily, I had asked my vet to ensure they got the longest possible date on the pre-mate kit and we were able to use it for Hope 11 months later - where we went right to the wire; you could have knocked me over with a feather when they said "mate now" as she was showing no signs at all of being ready - we had a litter of 7 (6 surviving) pups.

You haven't seen Whiskey in the flesh yet have you Jo?

He's a lovely boy - he won his Yearling dog class at Leeds the day before we used him and now has a CC and several reserve CC's - his son also won Best Puppy at Crufts last year  The last time I saw him was at WKC in the summer, he looked really tip-top


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just having a cuppa before I load Tau up to go have bloods drawn again, and take them up to Idexx, it's a good job my bank balance is fairly healthy atm, I think I've spent about £150 on premate testing and petrol costs so far, make that another £100 for today, once I've filled up the car again!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just having a cuppa before I load Tau up to go have bloods drawn again, and take them up to Idexx, it's a good job my bank balance is fairly healthy atm, I think I've spent about £150 on premate testing and petrol costs so far, make that another £100 for today, once I've filled up the car again!


Fingers crossed today. Remember, Tau, WEDNESDAY, so no funny business today. :hand:


----------



## chaka

Being an "old school" breeder I never used pre mate tests, but with the litter my bitch is currently expecting I did as it really had to be this time or not at all. I am lucky that a lady about 5 miles down the road does swab tests and has a very good name , people travel to her or send swabs from across the country, so I popped my girl down there. It was a 5 minute job, costs £10 and she told me which 2 days to mate her, we had 2 matings with good ties. 4 weeks later I took her back to same lady for a scan (£18) and we could clearly see 7 pups, one slightly smaller but hopefully okay. My daughter who has seen quite a few scans done by vets couldn't get over how quickly the pups were found and how clear the scan was. I would certainly recommend her to anyone in the Midlands area.


----------



## BlueBeagle

swarthy said:


> :lol: - It's SleepingLion who lives near Terencesmum - :lol: - forewarned is forearmed :lol:
> 
> If I get any enquiries from Yorkshire way, I will vet them very carefully


I knew that really 

I should never be allowed to post when I have a migraine jetlag head (I don't have jetlag but I don't know how to describe my head after the migraine pain has gone :crazy I am rereading the posts and thought wtf have I written Swarthy when I meant SL?

But maybe it is best to be forewarned just in case


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Well the results are in, her progesterone levels are rising, but still only at 11.5, and they need to be in the high 20's as I understand it to indicate she's ovulated. So retest again on Wednesday, just to be sure we don't miss her, but Larry feels it's more likely to be towards the weekend, cor lummy she likes to keep us waiting!! She's now flicking her tail right over and definitely standing, it's a pretty pornographic pose, and trying to provoke poor naieve Rhuna into *interacting* with her. She's jumping away or rolling over when Rhuna tries to play, so her behaviour is matching what the premates are telling us at this point.


----------



## BlueBeagle

Very exciting! She is certainly being a hussy 

Tell her we don't like to be kept waiting and hurry up!! Can't wait for little puppy pictures


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well the results are in, her progesterone levels are rising, but still only at 11.5, and they need to be in the high 20's as I understand it to indicate she's ovulated. So retest again on Wednesday, just to be sure we don't miss her, but Larry feels it's more likely to be towards the weekend, cor lummy she likes to keep us waiting!! She's now flicking her tail right over and definitely standing, it's a pretty pornographic pose, and trying to provoke poor naieve Rhuna into *interacting* with her. She's jumping away or rolling over when Rhuna tries to play, so her behaviour is matching what the premates are telling us at this point.


God, she is taking her bl**dy time, isn't she. :001_rolleyes:


----------



## jo5

Sorry to butt in, have to say I am finding this thread very addictive lol, but what day is she on now??? Just curious:001_smile:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

jo5 said:


> Sorry to butt in, have to say I am finding this thread very addictive lol, but what day is she on now??? Just curious:001_smile:


She's on day 13, and still not ready yet, so we're looking at day 15 at the earliest, and the guy at Idexx thinks she'll be even later than that. So it just goes to show, even when you know your bitch and I've noted her behaviours before, they can appear to be physically ready, but she obviously wouldn't have had many pups if I'd followed the old vets advice and taken her for matings on Days 11 and 13. 

I sent off the cheek swabs to vetgen as well over the weekend, so we should know soon whether or not she carries yellow at all.


----------



## jo5

Its a funny old business isn't it, My girl different breed, isn't ready until day 15 at least, she sort of looks ready flagging and standing etc but then by about day 15 she swells a little more and 'twitches' sorry and becomes glaringly obviously ready. I really don't think many bitches have actually read the book have they 
Ooooh just want to send you all the best of luck, you def deserve it


----------



## chaka

I had a GSD bitch who would not entertain the dog we had chosen, tried many times between day 10 and 16, when she had paled off and would have thought she was ready. We gave up then noticed on day 23 she was lifting her tail to our own stud (through a fence I should add). As his lines did suit her we thought what the hell and let them together, very quick mating and tie and she had 8 healthy pups, which were so lovely we repeated the mating 12 months later, obviously she was saving herself for her boyfriend at home.:001_rolleyes:


----------



## LexiLou2

Is poor Rhuna confused why her play mate suddenly seems to want to take their relationship to 'the next level' 

Out of interest to all the breeders is it fairly obvious when a girl is ready, or does it depend on the dog? Like Tau is obviously displaying some fairly obvious signs that her time is approaching, do all girls do this or do some hide it?


----------



## swarthy

LexiLou2 said:


> Is poor Rhuna confused why her play mate suddenly seems to want to take their relationship to 'the next level'
> 
> Out of interest to all the breeders is it fairly obvious when a girl is ready, or does it depend on the dog? Like Tau is obviously displaying some fairly obvious signs that her time is approaching, do all girls do this or do some hide it?


Some girls hide it very well - my last litter - you could have knocked me over when the pre-mate test said "Mate now" - she had shown no indication whatsoever - she went on to have 7 pups.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Is poor Rhuna confused why her play mate suddenly seems to want to take their relationship to 'the next level'
> 
> Out of interest to all the breeders is it fairly obvious when a girl is ready, or does it depend on the dog? Like Tau is obviously displaying some fairly obvious signs that her time is approaching, do all girls do this or do some hide it?


They differ, some bitches are completely out of character when they come in season, mine have always changed at least slightly, so Tau's a little bit more whingey and clingy than ever, if she could be more clingy!! How she is with dogs I have no idea, as she's never been *exposed* to dogs when in sesason, only bitches, and usually ends up provoking humping sessions galore once she's standing.

It's physically obvious as in a post above, when they are really starting to stand, as not only do they flick their tail right over and flag, but their vulva is thrust back and they *twitch*, it really is a very odd sight. As you're interested, I'll take some photos of Tau for you, so you get an idea of what they look like in season, she's fairly baboonish right now with her backside.


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## LexiLou2

Photos would be good.

Yes I admit I am a bit strange but finding this whole 'experience' really interesting!


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## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> Photos would be good.
> 
> Yes I admit I am a bit strange but finding this whole 'experience' really interesting!


And they say, I'm the crazy dog lady. :lol:


----------



## viz

chaka said:


> Being an "old school" breeder I never used pre mate tests, but with the litter my bitch is currently expecting I did as it really had to be this time or not at all. I am lucky that a lady about 5 miles down the road does swab tests and has a very good name , people travel to her or send swabs from across the country, so I popped my girl down there. It was a 5 minute job, costs £10 and she told me which 2 days to mate her, we had 2 matings with good ties. 4 weeks later I took her back to same lady for a scan (£18) and we could clearly see 7 pups, one slightly smaller but hopefully okay. My daughter who has seen quite a few scans done by vets couldn't get over how quickly the pups were found and how clear the scan was. I would certainly recommend her to anyone in the Midlands area.


Sorry to interrupt the thread, but Chaka could you pm me the details of the lady who tests/scans it would be much appreciated.

Interesting thread - I hope everything goes to plan for you and you have a lovely, happy healthy litter. Good luck


----------



## chaka

I can't send pm yet viz, haven't had 25 posts.:tongue_smilie: Not sure if I can post her details on here or if that would be considered advertising, perhaps someone can advise me?


----------



## BlueBeagle

LexiLou2 said:


> Photos would be good.
> 
> Yes I admit I am a bit strange but finding this whole 'experience' really interesting!


Same here! Maybe it is because I am pretty sure I could never cope with the stress of breeding myself so I can be involved and see what goes on at close hand (so to speak) and it is really fascinating!

Thank you SL (and Swarthy ) for sharing your journeys with us


----------



## viz

chaka said:


> I can't send pm yet viz, haven't had 25 posts.:tongue_smilie: Not sure if I can post her details on here or if that would be considered advertising, perhaps someone can advise me?


Oops I didn't realise you had to post a certain number before sending a pm. I tried adding you as a contact to get around it, but it didn't work - anyone have any ideas.

Oh just thought is the lady you referred to the one by Tern Hill?


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## chaka

Thats the one yes viz.


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## viz

Thanks Chaka I was recommended her a while ago but havent used her so it is good to see another recommendation.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Right, disclaimer alert, the following photographs show Tau in season with a swollen vulva, and displaying typical behaviour when she is starting to stand, so please don't look if you're at all sensitive to these sort of things.

In no particular order, but hopefully you will see the tail flagging over to one side, which looks very bizarre and obvious when it happens! 
































































__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
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Apologies, but I was asked for them


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## terencesmum

I like her "come on" face when she is pestering rhuna. :lol:


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## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> I like her "come on" face when she is pestering rhuna. :lol:


Do you like the fact she's flirting with the chair at one point


----------



## swarthy

There are degrees of "standing" and "tail flagging" - I have to say looking at those photos, I am a little surprised her tests are showing such low levels


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> There are degrees of "standing" and "tail flagging" - I have to say looking at those photos, I am a little surprised her tests are showing such low levels


I'm hoping the progesterone levels have gone up considerably today Swarthy, she's not yet letting anyone actually hump her, just flagging and flirting really! She was 11.7 according to the letter I got from Idexx yesterday (tested Monday), so fingers crossed that's gone up quite a bit! Will be setting off in a couple of hours again


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm hoping the progesterone levels have gone up considerably today Swarthy, she's not yet letting anyone actually hump her, just flagging and flirting really! She was 11.7 according to the letter I got from Idexx yesterday (tested Monday), so fingers crossed that's gone up quite a bit! Will be setting off in a couple of hours again


Would you consider going to Wales tomorrow, even if the test says she isn't quite there?
What do the OH's dogs say?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> Would you consider going to Wales tomorrow, even if the test says she isn't quite there?
> What do the OH's dogs say?


The OH's dogs are now very keen, they're even trying it on with the other two who smell of Tau, to which Indie is delighted she's the object of attention, and Rhuna would be bemused if she looked as if she noticed anything happening


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The OH's dogs are now very keen, they're even trying it on with the other two who smell of Tau, to which Indie is delighted she's the object of attention, and Rhuna would be bemused if she looked as if she noticed anything happening


So, are you thinking there might be an emergency dash to Wales later today?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> So, are you thinking there might be an emergency dash to Wales later today?


Possibly! I hope so tbh, it's all getting a bit drawn out, but I'm bl**dy glad I tested now rather than go by the vet's advice, not that I had any doubts I should be testing her in any case.


----------



## LexiLou2

Fingers crossed for high progesterone levels from here!


----------



## chaka

Fingers crossed for you. I have to say doing it the old fashioned way just going on those photos I would be off to the dog sooner rather than later. Are you planning on two matings ?


----------



## claire & the gang

Fingers crossed you need to dash off to wales today

Good luck with idexx..heres hoping those levels have shot up

Then of course theres the waiting to see if she`s taken.....
Then the waiting for them to arrive.....


----------



## swarthy

chaka said:


> Fingers crossed for you. I have to say doing it the old fashioned way just going on those photos I would be off to the dog sooner rather than later. Are you planning on two matings ?


Ditto here - she looks more than ready to me - Bronte's tail has just started flagging - atm she is just being 'followed' wth interest but no action


----------



## terencesmum

swarthy said:


> Ditto here - she looks more than ready to me - Bronte's tail has just started flagging - atm she is just being 'followed' wth interest but no action


Trust Tau to be ready when SL and I have arranged to go for a walk round Snailsden.


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## Quiddelbach

Looks ready and willing to me!


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## terencesmum

Idexx results back yet, Hun??


----------



## LexiLou2

Any news? We're not impatient or anything......


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> Any news? We're not impatient or anything......


I'm considering ringing. 
Jo, that is, not Idexx.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

God you lot, what are you like 

Just about to set off from my parents, had car problems over at Wetherby but are now thankfully sorted (OH left the battery connections loose when he last did something to it!!)

So Steph, I'll see you soon, and you will know if she's ready as will I (hopefully) when I see you. You may have to hang about while I phone the stud dog owner to see if it's ok to drive over in the evening. I'm thinking going by behaviour, she really looks very ready now........... 

Developing more grey hairs as we speak!!


----------



## LexiLou2

Ooooh so exciting....Tau is now responsible for my afternoons entertainment as I am off work (sick ) so have nothing better to do than wait on Taus Idexx results!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Ooooh so exciting....Tau is now responsible for my afternoons entertainment as I am off work (sick ) so have nothing better to do than wait on Taus Idexx results!!


Terencesmum says you're nuts 

Mind you, she can't talk after failing to follow the waterproof clothing advice, she's now in a pair of my jogging bottoms as her jeans on their own were slightly wet! The sideways rain at Snailsden made it through my waterproofs, so you can imagine just how wet she is :lol:

Still waiting btw, about to phone the stud dog owner.......


----------



## LexiLou2

I've nothing other than a headache, runny nose and sore throat to think about. I'm not 'suppposed' to be here so my two are asleep and if I dare move I get a how dare you disturb us look, so Tau is providing me with a distraction and entertainment. (that and reading up on flatcoats )
My favourite type of rain that sideways one!! I have yet to come across a waterproof that protects fromit!!


----------



## shetlandlover

Good luck! Its getting exciting now.:001_tt1:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Right, have spoken to the stud dog owner, and today is ok for a first mating, so, we just needed the results from Idexx, and they are in. The little Madam has shot up to 47!!!! More than double what Larry expected, so matings today and tomorrow if possible, cor lummy!!


----------



## noushka05

great news!, hope it all goes to plan


----------



## LexiLou2

All systems go....are you travelling across twice then if its today and tomorrow, or are you going to stay over?


----------



## claire & the gang

ooo wow how exciting....Tau is off on her date to wales at last...good luck


----------



## LexiLou2

on a seperate matter....we now have sideways rain here too.


----------



## chaka

Good luck! Re mating today and tomorrow, I always understand that matings 24 hours apart were a bit of a waste of time and you were far better to leave it 48 hours, realise that may not be doable if you have a very long journey but thought I'd mention it.


----------



## Izzysmummy

I have been lurking and watching this thread!

Good luck Tau (and Sleeping Lion)! Fingers crossed we see some gorgeous puppies in a few weeks time!


----------



## swarthy

chaka said:


> Good luck! Re mating today and tomorrow, I always understand that matings 24 hours apart were a bit of a waste of time and you were far better to leave it 48 hours, realise that may not be doable if you have a very long journey but thought I'd mention it.


We had back to back matings on my first litter - the stud dog was around a 16 hour round trip - I landed at the stud owners around 8pm on the Saturday night - we had a slip mating and then a tie - then another tie the next morning and a super litter of 8 healthy puppies  (Travelling back from Cumbria on May day BH Monday wasn't really something I relished)


----------



## sezra

Good luck with the matings! Keeping everything crossed that all goes well for you. x


----------



## chaka

swarthy said:


> We had back to back matings on my first litter - the stud dog was around a 16 hour round trip - I landed at the stud owners around 8pm on the Saturday night - we had a slip mating and then a tie - then another tie the next morning and a super litter of 8 healthy puppies  (Travelling back from Cumbria on May day BH Monday wasn't really something I relished)


These bitches do pick their times don't they, the best I ever had was one I had to take to Durham on Boxing Day, with several inches of snow on the ground., just one mating and like you 8 bouncing babies. Hope you don't think I was poking my nose in!


----------



## swarthy

chaka said:


> These bitches do pick their times don't they, the best I ever had was one I had to take to Durham on Boxing Day, with several inches of snow on the ground., just one mating and like you 8 bouncing babies. Hope you don't think I was poking my nose in!


lol - not at all (not even my thread) - unfortunately, there are times when "needs must" - my other two litters we've had matings 48 hours apart and had litters of 9 (8 surviving pups) and 7 (6 surviving pups) - a lot depends on your time window - I don't know if Tau was tested yesterday or whether she was being tested every 48 hours - but judging by the pictures, I would have been running yesterday and tomorrow.


----------



## Quiddelbach

Good luck. We had back to back with first litter, and you know that was a fruitful one lol


----------



## terencesmum

Just to keep everyone updated, Tau is now on her way to the stud dog. After consulting with the stud owner, she will go back for a second mating on Friday. So, Fingers crossed.

On a different note, Tau was definitely ready. She flagged her tail at every opportunity, even when my foot brushed her behind.  And she does look like a baboon. :lol:
And there was some funky vulva-twitching going on. Sorry, if that's too graphic. 

And Lexilou2, I don't think there'll be any photos of the mating. :lol:


----------



## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> Just to keep everyone updated, Tau is now on her way to the stud dog. After consulting with the stud owner, she will go back for a second mating on Friday. So, Fingers crossed.
> 
> On a different note, Tau was definitely ready. She flagged her tail at every opportunity, even when my foot brushed her behind.  And she does look like a baboon. :lol:
> And there was some funky vulva-twitching going on. Sorry, if that's too graphic.
> 
> And Lexilou2, I don't think there'll be any photos of the mating. :lol:


Damn!!! See now everyone going to think I'm a doggy perv asking to see phots of Tau's foof and the mating. :blush:
I'm not, honest, I am normal, just find the whole thing fascinating, its nice to see the whole thing done properly step by step as its something I will never get to experience first hand. 
SL told me shes get a pic of mum and dad which will keep me happy. :001_tt1:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Having had a word with John, stud dog owner, I think as the sperm are viable for up to 72 hours it would be pretty much a waste of time going back tomorrow, as the option's there for me to go back on Friday. We didn't get a good tie unfortunately (definitely got some swimmers in there though!), and Tau's flagging behaviour disappeared out the door as soon as Whiskey tried it on, he was also fairly uninterested so we'll see on Friday. One thing I've noticed is that Tau isn't humping or being humped by the girls yet, she is still playing hard to get with them. Either we've missed it completely, or she's still just holding out with them eggs! She certainly was not impressed with Whiskey's attempts, so we didn't force the issue, and after a brief internal examination it was apparently obvious that she's not yet softened up, which John thought left no doubt really that was why she wasn't very impressed with the whole thing. We may need some crossed fingers and paws for piglets!!!


----------



## terencesmum

OMG, SL is back online!!!
How did it go!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Having had a word with John, stud dog owner, I think as the sperm are viable for up to 72 hours it would be pretty much a waste of time going back tomorrow, as the option's there for me to go back on Friday. We didn't get a good tie unfortunately (definitely got some swimmers in there though!), and Tau's flagging behaviour disappeared out the door as soon as Whiskey tried it on, he was also fairly uninterested so we'll see on Friday. One thing I've noticed is that Tau isn't humping or being humped by the girls yet, she is still playing hard to get with them. Either we've missed it completely, or she's still just holding out with them eggs! She certainly was not impressed with Whiskey's attempts, so we didn't force the issue, and after a brief internal examination it was apparently obvious that she's not yet softened up, which John thought left no doubt really that was why she wasn't very impressed with the whole thing. We may need some crossed fingers and paws for piglets!!!


Oh no.


----------



## LexiLou2

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Having had a word with John, stud dog owner, I think as the sperm are viable for up to 72 hours it would be pretty much a waste of time going back tomorrow, as the option's there for me to go back on Friday. We didn't get a good tie unfortunately (definitely got some swimmers in there though!), and Tau's flagging behaviour disappeared out the door as soon as Whiskey tried it on, he was also fairly uninterested so we'll see on Friday. One thing I've noticed is that Tau isn't humping or being humped by the girls yet, she is still playing hard to get with them. Either we've missed it completely, or she's still just holding out with them eggs! She certainly was not impressed with Whiskey's attempts, so we didn't force the issue, and after a brief internal examination it was apparently obvious that she's not yet softened up, which John thought left no doubt really that was why she wasn't very impressed with the whole thing. We may need some crossed fingers and paws for piglets!!!


Shes just a flirt!! 

If you get a successful tie on Friday, will you look to go back Sunday, or will you just leave it at one?

I will keep all fingers toes and paws crossed that Friday is more successful!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Shes just a flirt!!
> 
> If you get a successful tie on Friday, will you look to go back Sunday, or will you just leave it at one?
> 
> I will keep all fingers toes and paws crossed that Friday is more successful!


I think if we get a successful tie on Friday we'll leave it at that, we definitely got some sperm in there today, so all is not lost as it were, just yet! But it would have been nice to have achieved a good tie with the pair of them. John's got over 40 years experience in breeding dogs, so I'm fairly happy to be led with his advice. She is a puzzle though, doesn't appear to have softened up, but the premate is telling us she should be gagging for it!!


----------



## swarthy

If anyone knows their stuff it's John and Saudje  - how far is it or did you fly 

It's about an 8 hour round trip for us and we are in Wales 

He's a gorgeous boy - how could Tau fail to be impressed :lol:


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think if we get a successful tie on Friday we'll leave it at that, we definitely got some sperm in there today, so all is not lost as it were, just yet! But it would have been nice to have achieved a good tie with the pair of them. John's got over 40 years experience in breeding dogs, so I'm fairly happy to be led with his advice. She is a puzzle though, doesn't appear to have softened up, but the premate is telling us she should be gagging for it!!


She certainly seemed "up for it" when I saw her.

I feel slightly emotional. :crying:


----------



## LexiLou2

What were Johns thoughts? Does he think you may be more successful on friday?

I obviously no nothing about breeding, is it possible the Idexx caught her just as her progesterone started to rise, so it hasn't yet peaked, or is that as high as it will go, I'm not sure how high it goes.


----------



## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> She certainly seemed "up for it" when I saw her.
> 
> I feel slightly emotional. :crying:


SL you are turning terencesmum into a blubbering wreck!!


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> SL you are turning terencesmum into a blubbering wreck!!


She's done it to me before. I can't help myself, honest. :crying:


----------



## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> She's done it to me before. I can't help myself, honest. :crying:


Awww bless ya, go give Mr T a cuddle, you can't beat a staffie cuddle to cheer you up.


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> Awww bless ya, go give Mr T a cuddle, you can't beat a staffie cuddle to cheer you up.


I've got a glass of wine now, so feeling slightly better.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

John and Saudjie were slightly perplexed because it all points towards her being ready, but she just isn't up for it, and after the examination showed she hadn't softened, that could be because after an initial try, it may have been too uncomfortable and she just didn't want to know after that. She was most certainly pretty pornographic BEFORE I put her in the car and drove her over (set off at about 4pm Swarthy, and back for 10pm after the interlude in the middle I don't think that's bad timing); and yet after an initial bit of interest she back pedalled and just didn't want to know, nor was Whiskey THAT interested in here. We'll see, no matter what she's still my piglet


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## LexiLou2

Well Tau you like to keep us all on a knife edge, its like the doggy version of eastenders....all we need now is for her to run away with a homeless mongerel, have his babies and sell her body for raw meat and bones and we have a full story.


----------



## kat&molly

Good luck for Friday!!


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## Sleeping_Lion

Little Madam was at it again this morning, flirting straight away with Rhuna, and then humping her, she's still not allowing herself to be humped though, hmmmmmmm!!!!


----------



## BlueBeagle

Good luck for tomorrow and hopefully she complies with the stud! She obviously like being in charge in that department


----------



## claire & the gang

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Little Madam was at it again this morning, flirting straight away with Rhuna, and then humping her, she's still not allowing herself to be humped though, hmmmmmmm!!!!


I think you need to have a word with Tau..tell her to stop playing silly B$$$ers.
Does she realise she has such a public following awaiting a success story followed by lots of pictures of her gorgeous puppys


----------



## jo5

Good luck for tomorrow


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Thank you all for the good wishes, she was SERIOUSLY flagging and standing for Rhuna earlier, who has not one idea what to do about the whole situation. So we will see for tomorrow, I'll be going across late morning so should be able to update by the afternoon *if* we've got a good tie this time. 

I've got a whole gang of very experienced breeders helping me out behind the scenes with advice about the whole thing, and I think I've gone grey overnight, but as I've said to a few folks, if she doesn't take, it isn't the end of the world, she'll always be my little piglet in any case, it's a spanner in the works, that's all


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## moonviolet

Very best of luck for tomorrow. I don't think my nerves could stand this breeding lark.:blush:


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## Sleeping_Lion

Will be setting off shortly, she's not at all flagging this morning, so we'll see, she's a bloomin' puzzle!! Just tickled her bum and she did flip her tail over, gaaahhhhh, what is she like? And now she's flagging at Rhuna again, I swear I'm going grey and losing the plot :lol: :lol:


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## claire & the gang

Good Luck today....

Tau behave yourself & a little co-operation wouldn`t go amiss


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

Good luck, Hope today goes well 

Come on Tau play ball and be a good girl for your mummy x


----------



## BlueBeagle

Good luck! Am keeping my fingers crossed for you and Tau. Let's hope she plays nicely for the boy today and we hear the squeak of little piglets in a few weeks time


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

BlueBeagle said:


> Good luck! Am keeping my fingers crossed for you and Tau. Let's hope she plays nicely for the boy today and we hear the squeak of little piglets in a few weeks time


I'm hoping if we get piglets, they'll grunt, just like their mum, but we'll see, just heading out the door! Will update later, I expect to be back mid afternoonish, but I honestly don't think she's going to co-operate at all. I was told when she was only about ten weeks old she was a right madam, she has certainly lived up to that, *sigh*


----------



## jo5

Everything crossed here for a good Tie, you have put so much time and effort into this you deserve for things to go your way


----------



## swarthy

Good luck - my giut instincts haven't been watching the thread, seeing the pictures etc and from what you are saying all scream to me that she has gone over now (saw this happen with a bitch recently almost mirror of Tau - but because she wasn't pre-mate tested we learnt some valuable lessons about bitch behaviour) - hence my comments about "degrees" of standing and flagging. 

I do hope I am wrong after all the prep you've put in. Good luck


----------



## terencesmum

God, Hun, you are really torturing us here!! Update already!! Pretty please! Xx


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Well she did not want to know at all today, so we didn't force the issue, now it's just a wait and see. If she starts to show signs of being flirty at all, I'll speak to John and see if we should attempt a late mating, my feeling is we'll be incredibly lucky if I've caught her, I think she possibly spiked very quickly, and we only had a very small window of opportunity. *If* the eggs remained viable until the slip mating, there may be a small chance. Of course there's always a chance that the tests weren't right and she may yet go all flirty on me, she hasn't really done so this season, she normally provokes her sis into humping her and that's not really happened at all, so it's very perplexing!


----------



## jo5

Sorry things didn't go your way today, there is always the chance that the slip mating will have been successful, its sods law that after all the planning , time , effort and not to mention money( I know that is not an important fact to you but money has been spent and we all know how hard that is to come by these days!) you have invested into this that the eventual mating didn't go exactly to plan  I will be keeping everything crossed for you and Tau that there is a happy ending to this thread


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

jo5 said:


> Sorry things didn't go your way today, there is always the chance that the slip mating will have been successful, its sods law that after all the planning , time , effort and not to mention money( I know that is not an important fact to you but money has been spent and we all know how hard that is to come by these days!) you have invested into this that the eventual mating didn't go exactly to plan  I will be keeping everything crossed for you and Tau that there is a happy ending to this thread


Thank you  The important thing is I've got a beautiful girl, and no matter what, I want to do what's right by her. John laughed at the looks she was giving Whiskey, he really is a lovely boy but Tau was not having him anywhere NEAR her bottom!


----------



## jo5

She is obviously just not that 'kind' of girl


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> he really is a lovely boy but Tau was not having him anywhere NEAR her bottom!


I would say she's probably gone over - we saw this with this local bitch who wasn't pre-mate tested - and as I said - the boys do know when they are ripe .

Bronte won't let any dog near her rear end normally - try it at your peril is the message !!! but my god, when she's ready for mating, it's "come and get me boy" - _little tart that she is _:lol:

How long were you leaving between tests? were you testing daily or every 48hours?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> I would say she's probably gone over - we saw this with this local bitch who wasn't pre-mate tested - and as I said - the boys do know when they are ripe .
> 
> Bronte won't let any dog near her rear end normally - try it at your peril is the message !!! but my god, when she's ready for mating, it's "come and get me boy" _<little tart> _
> 
> How long were you leaving between tests? were you testing daily or every 48hours?


Tau won't let any dogs near her bottom either, dog or bitch.

I tested on Monday and she was 11.7, and yet by Wednesday that had shot up to 47.1 Swarthy, so she ovulated Tuesday, we couldn't get a tie on the Wednesday, but he definitely ejaculated in the right area, so you never know!


----------



## terencesmum

What a shame! 
Fingers crossed that the slip mating was successful. xx


----------



## shetlandlover

Ahh 

Hope the slip mating worked. :001_unsure:

Some nice big healthy litters come from slip mating's so here's hoping.


----------



## terencesmum

Hun, are you going to do an ultrasound at some point? If so, when is the earliest you could get that done? Xx


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> Hun, are you going to do an ultrasound at some point? If so, when is the earliest you could get that done? Xx


Haven't decided yet hun, we'll see how she goes, if she stays looking unpregnant, not much point, if she keeps me guessing, maybe.


----------



## chaka

Ah bummer! Fingers crossed she has taken to the slip mating.


----------



## LexiLou2

Ahhh Hun, well I'll keep everything crossed that the slip mating was successful.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Thanks for the good wishes, the little Madam was standing again tonight for Rhuna, flipping the tail right over and looking all coy. Geez, we spent God knows how much on petrol, and other stuff, and she wants to suddenly be a flatcoat??!! There's nowt that'll fix that, tbh, it's a risk that's taken, she is a soft girl in nature, and taking her out of her comfort zone may have been too much to be able to judge accurately whether she's ready to stand or not.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thanks for the good wishes, the little Madam was standing again tonight for Rhuna, flipping the tail right over and looking all coy. Geez, we spent God knows how much on petrol, and other stuff, and she wants to suddenly be a flatcoat??!! There's nowt that'll fix that, tbh, it's a risk that's taken, she is a soft girl in nature, and taking her out of her comfort zone may have been too much to be able to judge accurately whether she's ready to stand or not.


The trouble is, these girls will stand for longer than they are actually ready - but the stud dog will usually have a good indication of whether she is ready or not - hence maybe why Whiskey wasn't overly enthusiastic - they also don't necessarily realise the 'reality' of what is going to happen - and if you've got a slippery one like mine - she decided to "take off" tonight just as they got it together  - I will probably have to call in re-enforcements now seeing my lovely girl has decided to be ready for mating 2 days after my OH had knee surgery   

For most girls, their whole demeanour changes when they are ready - Bronte and Moz used to be soulmates when they werre younger - but now she won't give him the time of day. Conversely, her and Dylan are literally joined at the hip - neither of them are particularly happy about being separated - but needs must - even though - she hasn't even tried standing for him.

Whereas with my boy I want to mate her with, she couldn't make it easier for him if she tried :lol: - two days ago - she wouldn't even allow him to sniff her - and he wasn't overly bothered - everything has changed for them today :lol:

Was there any mileage in trying one of their other dogs or wasn't that an option? Wizard is Yellow (but don't think he carries chocolate) so even if Tau did carry yellow - there would be no risk of having liver yellow pups.

Whiskey also has a rather gorgeous half brother and a lovely chocolate son 

ETA on cost - if it's any consolation - even though I don't have any travelling expenses this time - it's cost me just under £2,000 to get my two to this point - and a very long waiting game.


----------



## BlueBeagle

Such a shame you might have missed the window 

As everybody else says, hopefully the slip mating was successful and you get some pups from your beautiful Tau. 

I guess it is just a waiting game now...


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Swarthy, I've got dogs here that she's not let her back end either, it's not just Whiskey, he really was a lovely amiable boy about the whole thing. If it's not meant to be it's not meant to be, that's all, and sometimes you just have to accept that. So we'll see


----------



## Quinzell

I have been following your thread with huge interest, and admiration. You have put so much love and consideration into this. I really hope it works out and you get pups but if not, like you say, you still have a beautiful girl at the end of the day. 

I think another thing worth pointing out is the number of people who's eyes you have opened to the whole thing - me for one. If your thread prevents one person from breeding their dog because they now realize the effort, cost and emotion that goes into a real ethical mating or it makes someone decide to follow the same route as you and do things properly, then that's another huge achievement in my book.

You deserve for this to work out for you, you really do.

Good luck SL and Tau


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LouiseH said:


> I have been following your thread with huge interest, and admiration. You have put so much love and consideration into this. I really hope it works out and you get pups but if not, like you say, you still have a beautiful girl at the end of the day.
> 
> I think another thing worth pointing out is the number of people who's eyes you have opened to the whole thing - me for one. If your thread prevents one person from breeding their dog because they now realize the effort, cost and emotion that goes into a real ethical mating or it makes someone decide to follow the same route as you and do things properly, then that's another huge achievement in my book.
> 
> You deserve for this to work out for you, you really do.
> 
> Good luck SL and Tau


Just about to go out on the field with the girls and saw this, thank you so much, that was the whole reason for posting this thread, and if it ends in disappointment for me and Tau, it has also been a success in many ways, to show just how difficult it can be to do things *right* as it were. But yes, I'm blessed with a fabulous girl who I treasure, and the bonus is I have two more who are just as beautiful


----------



## Izzysmummy

Is there any news on this thread?

I may have missed it Sleeping Lion but were you lucky with the slip mating? How is the lovely Tau??


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Izzysmummy said:


> Is there any news on this thread?
> 
> I may have missed it Sleeping Lion but were you lucky with the slip mating? How is the lovely Tau??


She's still gorgeous, and thank you for asking 

I haven't a foggiest if she's up the duff, I've been busy moving house, which has been an ordeal to say the least. We are now happily settled, and we'll just wait and see. If she's preggers then it hopefully won't be long before we see *signs*. I've not planned to have her scanned, as this is really the last opportunity for a litter, I'm just of the mind if she has or hasn't taken, so be it. I'm prepared ready to order whelping stuff *if* we need it, and I'm really happy with the new vets who will be on standby if I need them. If I'm honest, my gut instinct is that she's not taken, but hopefully the thread shows some of the planning, health considerations, and the ups and downs of trying to breed ethically, something that seems to be at the fore following Crufts and the ensuing discussions surrounding the vet checks and disqualifications.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Right, first off, I'm not getting my hopes up, and I'm hopefully not getting anyone else's hopes up, but as everyone's been asking I just thought I'd update. *If* the slip mating was successful, Tau would be on day 29 today; I've been keeping a close eye on her, and a couple of her nipples have started to pink up, and lose a bit of hair round them, her vulva is also slightly swollen and pink still. BUT, and it's a huge BUT, it could all just be hormones, plenty of time yet to see if anything's actually happening.


----------



## claire & the gang

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Right, first off, I'm not getting my hopes up, and I'm hopefully not getting anyone else's hopes up, but as everyone's been asking I just thought I'd update. *If* the slip mating was successful, Tau would be on day 29 today; I've been keeping a close eye on her, and a couple of her nipples have started to pink up, and lose a bit of hair round them, her vulva is also slightly swollen and pink still. BUT, and it's a huge BUT, it could all just be hormones, plenty of time yet to see if anything's actually happening.


I will keep tentative, not getting hopes up fingers crossed for you


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Right, first off, I'm not getting my hopes up, and I'm hopefully not getting anyone else's hopes up, but as everyone's been asking I just thought I'd update. *If* the slip mating was successful, Tau would be on day 29 today; I've been keeping a close eye on her, and a couple of her nipples have started to pink up, and lose a bit of hair round them, her vulva is also slightly swollen and pink still. BUT, and it's a huge BUT, it could all just be hormones, plenty of time yet to see if anything's actually happening.


Oh God, I might actually faint with excitement and it took all my will power not to do an excited clap and dance around the living room.
BTW, I am not getting my hopes up at all. :smilewinkgrin:


----------



## LexiLou2

Fingers crossed here too.

Steph.....I worry about you


----------



## noushka05

everything crossed here aswell SL


----------



## Devil-Dogz

Fingers/paws crossed here!


----------



## BlueBeagle

Am keeping my fingers crossed here too. Keep us updated either way


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> Fingers crossed here too.
> 
> Steph.....I worry about you


What do you mean? :biggrin5:


----------



## Bijou

sounds promising - are you having her scanned ?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Bijou said:


> sounds promising - are you having her scanned ?


I wasn't going to bother, as I'm resigned to either fate really, and have the means and money either way if she is or isn't pregnant to sort out whelping stuff and any emergency *bits* needed, including treatment. The new house has a nice corner in the kitchen just suited for a whelping box, if it happens, and the other two will have to just stay down in the utility room for a few weeks. I'm sure if it does happen, Indie would be more than willing to keep out of the way! Rhuna may be more interested, but we'll see, still early days and I really haven't a clue, will be keeping a close eye on those nipples from now on though


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I wasn't going to bother, as I'm resigned to either fate really, and have the means and money either way if she is or isn't pregnant to sort out whelping stuff and any emergency *bits* needed, including treatment. The new house has a nice corner in the kitchen just suited for a whelping box, if it happens, and the other two will have to just stay down in the utility room for a few weeks. I'm sure if it does happen, Indie would be more than willing to keep out of the way! Rhuna may be more interested, but we'll see, still early days and I really haven't a clue, will be keeping a close eye on those nipples from now on though


TBH Jo - I would have her scanned so you know one way or the other.

You will need to start looking at changing her food over to a puppy food at around 6/7 weeks to ensure mum and babies are getting the nutrition they need - by 9 weeks I would have them on around 7 smaller meals a day.

I speak from experience when I say these girls can have phantoms that can fool experienced breeders - Bronte had one last time after two slip matings - I chose not to have her scanned and ended up tearing my hair out by the time she was 63 days as my vet and my posts on here will tell you.

This bitch had NEVER had a phantom before - but her body screamed pregnant - no hair around the nipples, weight gain, milk - she even hid behind the chairs in the dining room at one point and started digging as if she was getting ready to give birth - even a scan at 63 days which showed no babies couldn't put my mind at rest - and I've had litters and I've lived with phantoms - but EVERYTHING bar the scan told me she was pregnant - I suspected it briefly at about 4 weeks when I'd recovered sufficiently from my illness but shrugged it off as I didn't see how she could be.

Even though healthwise at that point, I wasn't really up to whelping and raising a litter (you may recall I was rushed into hospital midway through her "fertile point" very seriously ill - doped up to the eyeballs on drugs and undergoing barrages of tests) - but I do wonder now whether we did have a pregnant bitch who re-absorbed and whether if I had been "on the ball" - we might have had a different outcome.

You need to know if she is pregnant as her requirements for care will change and if there are babies in there, you need to do the best by them.

I've always gone for scans standing up to cause minimal fuss to the bitch - if you do scan, make your requirements very clear to the vet.

Good luck.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> TBH Jo - I would have her scanned so you know one way or the other.
> 
> You will need to start looking at changing her food over to a puppy food at around 6/7 weeks to ensure mum and babies are getting the nutrition they need - by 9 weeks I would have them on around 7 smaller meals a day.
> 
> I speak from experience when I say these girls can have phantoms that can fool experienced breeders - Bronte had one last time after two slip matings - I chose not to have her scanned and ended up tearing my hair out by the time she was 63 days as my vet and my posts on here will tell you.
> 
> This bitch had NEVER had a phantom before - but her body screamed pregnant - no hair around the nipples, weight gain, milk - she even hid behind the chairs in the dining room at one point and started digging as if she was getting ready to give birth - even a scan at 63 days which showed no babies couldn't put my mind at rest - and I've had litters and I've lived with phantoms - but EVERYTHING bar the scan told me she was pregnant - I suspected it briefly at about 4 weeks when I'd recovered sufficiently from my illness but shrugged it off as I didn't see how she could be.
> 
> Even though healthwise at that point, I wasn't really up to whelping and raising a litter (you may recall I was rushed into hospital midway through her "fertile point" very seriously ill - doped up to the eyeballs on drugs and undergoing barrages of tests) - but I do wonder now whether we did have a pregnant bitch who re-absorbed and whether if I had been "on the ball" - we might have had a different outcome.
> 
> You need to know if she is pregnant as her requirements for care will change and if there are babies in there, you need to do the best by them.
> 
> I've always gone for scans standing up to cause minimal fuss to the bitch - if you do scan, make your requirements very clear to the vet.
> 
> Good luck.


She's raw fed don't forget, and I don't plan to use puppy food for her, or the pups tbh, but I would wean pups onto a good quality kibble for those who prefer to feed a commercial food 

I'll give the scanning some thought, I have a feeling the new vets may scan, but not sure *how* - one of them breeds Labradors himself, when I mentioned it to him last time I was there (collecting Indie after her blockage) his eyes lit up as I started explaining health tests etc and discussing Rhuna's hips/elbows when she's around 2 years old, his eyes lit up in an 'Oh thank God someone knows about these things' sort of way. *If* she continues to show possible signs, then I'll maybe give them a ring in a couple of weeks, I'll try and get a photograph of her nipples, a couple are definitely slightly pinker and enlarged I *think* - you start doubting your own memory once you've checked them for the umpteenth time. 

I do remember your experience with Bronte, and I seriously hope we don't get that with Tau, fingers crossed it's pups or nothing!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Right, she's hormonal, grumped at Rhuna the once, is not herself, pinked nipples, thinned hair, definitely filled out and fat, and I have had opinions from two other people who have seen her in the flesh that she's either preggers, or doing a bl**dy good phantom, so, roll on Tuesday for her scan!


----------



## PennyGC

The last bitch I had scanned she fell asleep during it, she was lying on the table on a lovely blanket and when we'd finished and put the lights on, she was quietly snoring away.. no stress at all


----------



## Amy-manycats

Oh fingers crossed for Tuesday for you then.


----------



## Quinzell

So exciting! Can't wait for tomorrow! I will be thinking of you with fingers crossed.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

This time tomorrow I'll be able to put you all out of your misery, until then, another photo of Tau's tummy, just for those who I know have been watching and trying to discern if there's any piglets cooking in there......


----------



## Firedog

Good luck for tomorrow,i shall be waiting with baited breath.She does look nice and wide on the side.I don't know if this is counted as a slip mating but the first time i took my bitch to be mated,the dogs did their stuff but the stud dog owner wouldn't let his dog tie,we had 5 pups out of that.I do know if the dog thinks he has done what he has meant to do,he wont normally try again.


----------



## Izzysmummy

It definitely looks like there might be some Tau piglets cooking in there!!  :thumbup1:

Cant wait to find out tomorrow!


----------



## LexiLou2

If she isn't up the duff she needs a doggy oscar for a bloody good phantom!!!!


----------



## CockersIndie

I've just spent the entire evening reading every post in this thread. what a journey! and what a fantastic passion you've shown!! 

good luck with the scan tomorrow! i'll be waiting (im)patiently!


----------



## LexiLou2

Got all fingers toes and paws crossed for the scan today.

Can someone please let me know the outcome (hint hint Steph) as I am computerless all afternoon and if I have to wait until tonight I may cry!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Got all fingers toes and paws crossed for the scan today.
> 
> Can someone please let me know the outcome (hint hint Steph) as I am computerless all afternoon and if I have to wait until tonight I may cry!


If you pm me your mobile No I'll let you know


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> Got all fingers toes and paws crossed for the scan today.
> 
> Can someone please let me know the outcome (hint hint Steph) as I am computerless all afternoon and if I have to wait until tonight I may cry!


I will text you as soon as there are news, I promise. 

I hope you realise that I am in no fit state to do ANY work, Jo. I keep looking at the clock!!! Ah, what have you done!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If you pm me your mobile No I'll let you know


Since you have my mobile number, too, you could text me at the same time. :aureola::aureola::aureola:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> Since you have my mobile number, too, you could text me at the same time. :aureola::aureola::aureola:


I was going to text and post at the same time, just to be fair, I don't want anyone accusing me of telling *someone* before them


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I was going to text and post at the same time, just to be fair, I don't want anyone accusing me of telling *someone* before them


I promise I won't brag if you text me first.  :biggrin: :lol:


----------



## moonviolet

I'm not working with this page open in the background, refreshing it periodically... no no not me


----------



## gorgeous

Am I being a good or bad detective here?

Is Lexi Lou potentially going to be the Mum of one of these (hopeful) pups?:biggrin:


----------



## terencesmum

moonviolet said:


> I'm not working with this page open in the background, refreshing it periodically... no no not me


You are a better woman than me. I haven't been able to get any work done today at all.


----------



## terencesmum

gorgeous said:


> Am I being a good or bad detective here?
> 
> Is Lexi Lou potentially going to be the Mum of one of these (hopeful) pups?:biggrin:


No, she is not. :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

gorgeous said:


> Am I being a good or bad detective here?
> 
> Is Lexi Lou potentially going to be the Mum of one of these (hopeful) pups?:biggrin:


Lol, no, she's not, she's hanging out for a flatcoat pup, possibly from the same breeder I got Rhuna from, but it won't be for another year yet


----------



## jo5

Everything crossed for positive news this afternoon


----------



## LexiLou2

gorgeous said:


> Am I being a good or bad detective here?
> 
> Is Lexi Lou potentially going to be the Mum of one of these (hopeful) pups?:biggrin:


Oooops 

Am I that bad?? 

No I'm not having a Tau pup, I'm just very sad and puppies are far more exciting than work :biggrin:


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> Oooops
> 
> Am I that bad??
> 
> No I'm not having a Tau pup, I'm just very sad and puppies are far more exciting than work :biggrin:


But you are not denying you are holding out for one of Heather's (potential) pups??


----------



## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> But you are not denying you are holding out for one of Heather's (potential) pups??


We shall have to see.....a lot can happen in a year and if the situation suits then Heather is what I would class as an ideal breeder!! I shall just sit on the fence for a little bit on that one.....


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> We shall have to see.....a lot can happen in a year and if the situation suits then Heather is what I would class as an ideal breeder!! I shall just sit on the fence for a little bit on that one.....


What a diplomatic answer. I love it.
I have given my order to Heather, already. I want one like Jack. :lol:


----------



## Quinzell

What time is your appointment....the waiting is just pure torment!!!

If she is, you definitely have to call the first pup Piglet now....


----------



## kat&molly

Fingers crossed for this afternoon.
It would be a lovely outcome to this thread some baby chocolate numpties.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LouiseH said:


> What time is your appointment....the waiting is just pure torment!!!
> 
> If she is, you definitely have to call the first pup Piglet now....


It's at 2pm, and I already have at least one name picked out 

I'm logging out of work in a min and getting them out for a leg stretch before I head off to vets and do a few bits of shopping for our tea.



kat&molly said:


> Fingers crossed for this afternoon.
> It would be a lovely outcome to this thread some baby chocolate numpties.


She could be cooking all three colours in there, Whiskey carries both black and yellow, and Tau carries yellow, so we could have what's called a rainbow litter, or they could all be one colour! Mother nature chooses I'm afraid, despite what stastics tell us


----------



## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> What a diplomatic answer. I love it.
> I have given my order to Heather, already. I want one like Jack. :lol:


I'm a bit awkward I'd like a combination of Jack and Ziggy, Jacks looks and staure but Ziggys build and 'fluffiness'


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> I'm a bit awkward I'd like a combination of Jack and Ziggy, Jacks looks and staure but Ziggys build and 'fluffiness'


I would imagine that completely depends on the stud used. And we are completely derailing the thread.


----------



## gorgeous

Well, I got that wrong then lol!


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

oooooooo not long to wait for news- she is probably being scanned as I type


----------



## terencesmum

I haven't had a text yet!!!


----------



## Izzysmummy

OMG! Im dying to find out!! Hurry up SL!!


----------



## shetlandlover

Good luck!!!!!


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

I'm gonna have no fingernails left :lol:

Come on SL we are all here and waiting


----------



## Devil-Dogz

Hope all goes well, and theirs a nice number of healthy babies on that screen!!


----------



## Firedog

I think she's gone out celebrating and going to keep us all waiting.


----------



## terencesmum

Bjt said:


> I think she's gone out celebrating and going to keep us all waiting.


She promised to text and I haven't had anything yet. Not that I'm impatient or anything.
*scuttles off to check if there is a silent text on phone*

ETA: No texts.


----------



## Amy-manycats

Come on! I logged in hoping for good news, fingers crossed. :biggrin:


----------



## Quinzell

How many times can you hit F5 in a minute.........*refresh*, *refresh*, *refresh*.....


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

LouiseH said:


> How many times can you hit F5 in a minute.........*refresh*, *refresh*, *refresh*.....


Careful your computer could blow up and you'll never know if there's piglets :lol:


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

SL has probably been carted off to hospital after fainting and banging her head after hearing the news that Tau is expecting 12 puppies


----------



## Tarnus

Supposing there are some little piglets on the way, how would one go about offering a home to a piglet? Or is there a waiting list? : (hypothetical, of course)

Fingers crossed for good news!


----------



## BlueBeagle

Gosh I hope SL hurries up and lets us know. It is nearly my bedtime and I won't be able to sleep if she doesn't post soon


----------



## terencesmum

We can see you are online now, so post already!!! ARGH!!!!!!


I'm normal, honest.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Good God, hold your horses, I did promise to text Nicki, as she can't get online, and I'm afraid I'm not up to date with my phones to know how to send the same message to more than one person so you'll have to make do with getting the news here 

I'm going to press submit and send at the same time, no favouritism, but Tau is definitely cooking a small litter of piglets 

We saw two good outlines, and looked like a few more tucked up under her ribs. 

Relieved and worried at the same time!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Good God, hold your horses, I did promise to text Nicki, as she can't get online, and I'm afraid I'm not up to date with my phones to know how to send the same message to more than one person so you'll have to make do with getting the news here
> 
> I'm going to press submit and send at the same time, no favouritism, but Tau is definitely cooking a small litter of piglets
> 
> We saw two good outlines, and looked like a few more tucked up under her ribs.
> 
> Relieved and worried at the same time!


Oh my god, that is amazing news!!!!! I am so happy for you!!!!


----------



## jo5

So so so pleased for you, you really deserve a happy healthy litter


----------



## Firedog

Fantastic news.OOOH it's so exciting.


----------



## Devil-Dogz

Best of luck from here on then


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

WOOOHOOOOOO CONGRATULATIONS   

So happy for you


----------



## chaka

Great news! Congratulations.


----------



## BlueBeagle

That is fantastic news! I am so pleased for you and hope the rest of the time goes smoothly for you now 

Just in time for bed :lol:


----------



## Firedog

When are they due?Is it later this month towards the end or is it the beginning of May?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Bjt said:


> When are they due?Is it later this month towards the end or is it the beginning of May?


Three weeks, so, I'd best get whelping box and a few other bits sorted out.


----------



## Izzysmummy

Wow! Well done Tau! And SL, all your hard work has paid off! Keeping fingers crossed that everything goes smoothly! :thumbup1:


----------



## EmzieAngel

Hey, just wanted to say I have been following this thread for a while.
Congrats to you and Tau, hope everything goes smoothly 
xx


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Her shaved tummy looks really saggy bless her, and I think she'll be getting extras from now on. 

Right, must get organised and get this lot out for some fresh air and a run before they're fed. Lots of planning to do


----------



## moonviolet

Congratulations 

I'm so pleased for you. hope the rest of the journey goes smoothly


----------



## CockersIndie

congratulations!! i'm so pleased, i've been thinking about the scan all day but haven't dared log on til now! hope it all goes well and keep us updated of course!! good luck Tau!


----------



## Goldstar

Great news, congratulations


----------



## noushka05

Congratz!!...Im so pleased for you


----------



## Quinzell

Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal!!!!!!

So exciting!!

Congratulations. I'm so happy and excited for you and Tau! What a great girl she is!

Looking forward to following her progress


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Congratulations- so pleased for you


----------



## viz

Fantastic news - good luck with everything. She will be eating you out of the house now.


----------



## Amy-manycats

Been away, back again and still no news


----------



## Amy-manycats

Doh, wasn't refreshing properly


----------



## claire & the gang

Congratulations SL & Tau !!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Amy-manycats

:thumbup1:

Extra noms for Tau now, fab news.


----------



## LexiLou2

I am SO happy for you, you really do deserve this litter, you have put so much time, effort and thought into it and I am over the moon for you.

As I said at the weekend, you will need these pups to be well socialised and used to people before they go off to their new homes.......its a horrible task but I am willing to volunteer myself!!

No, honestly it is not too much for you to ask, i will make that sacrifice!!

Congratulations again, and well done to Tau too!!! xx


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> I am SO happy for you, you really do deserve this litter, you have put so much time, effort and thought into it and I am over the moon for you.
> 
> As I said at the weekend, you will need these pups to be well socialised and used to people before they go off to their new homes.......its a horrible task but I am willing to volunteer myself!!
> 
> No, honestly it is not too much for you to ask, i will make that sacrifice!!
> 
> Congratulations again, and well done to Tau too!!! xx


I think I might be able to rummage up a few volunteers, so you won't have to take it all on your shoulders


----------



## LexiLou2

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think I might be able to rummage up a few volunteers, so you won't have to take it all on your shoulders


I think I could have an educated guess at at least one more volunteer


----------



## RAINYBOW

Congratulations  and best of luck  best get some sleep in now woman !!!


----------



## LexiLou2

On a serious note do they shave their belly to scan? If so and Tau is obliging at some point would you mind posting a pic of a bald belly, just curious really as I imagine the changes in her shape etc stand out more when you remove her hair.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> On a serious note do they shave their belly to scan? If so and Tau is obliging at some point would you mind posting a pic of a bald belly, just curious really as I imagine the changes in her shape etc stand out more when you remove her hair.


You really are a strange woman :lol:

She'll probably get up when I move, but I'll get my camera ready so I can get her baldy belly for you, in all it's saggy glory!


----------



## LexiLou2

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You really are a strange woman :lol:
> 
> She'll probably get up when I move, but I'll get my camera ready so I can get her baldy belly for you, in all it's saggy glory!


I know but this is probably as close as I'll ever get to breeding a litter so I'm taking full advantage....


----------



## terencesmum

Cough, cough. I believe I volunteered for puppy sitting ages ago. I can't believe those opportunists. Some people have no shame.  :lol:


----------



## goodvic2

The first time I've EVER congratulated anyone for breeding..

Best of luck Jo x


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just for Nicki, here's a couple of shots, she's not really wanting to roll over atm, she's not long had her tea, so side shots will have to do, I'll see what I can get later and as she progresses over the next three weeks


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Good God, hold your horses, I did promise to text Nicki, as she can't get online, and I'm afraid I'm not up to date with my phones to know how to send the same message to more than one person so you'll have to make do with getting the news here
> 
> I'm going to press submit and send at the same time, no favouritism, but Tau is definitely cooking a small litter of piglets
> 
> We saw two good outlines, and looked like a few more tucked up under her ribs.
> 
> Relieved and worried at the same time!


Congratulations

If that's a vet scan - however many they could see, double it - we've never seen more than 4, and never had less than 7 and that was with Whiskey  vet could only get two definite outlines with Hope.

Have you let John and Saudje know?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> Congratulations
> 
> If that's a vet scan - however many they could see, double it - we've never seen more than 4, and never had less than 7 and that was with Whiskey  vet could only get two definite outlines with Hope.
> 
> Have you let John and Saudje know?


It was a vet scan, and yes, I've let John and Saudje know by email, will phone them if I don't hear from them at all to make sure they know


----------



## dobermummy

congratulations :biggrin:


----------



## swarthy

I said I was fairly certain she was straight from seeing the first photos of her, and glad you have had her scanned, you needed to know - and now she's been shaved, you really can see it loud and clear.

How far gone is she now? be careful about feeding her up too early - she needs everything she has to go to the babies and not her.

I don't know what quantities of raw you feed, but I switch my girls to puppy food at around 6/7 weeks and by the time they are due, they are on around 7smaller meals a day. 

Get some Glucose in and some goats milk so you can keep her strength up if she has a long labour.

After whelping - she needs as much food as she will take off you - I feed mine on demand whilst they are feeding in the first couple of weeks and for the first few days give mum about a litre of Lactol on top of her meals. 

She sounds very much like my Hope in some of her antics - so keep an eye on her and her feeding habits - the minute there was the first sign of teeth, she was off; fortunately, I had my suspicions this was going to happen and started weaning my last litter at just over 2 weeks. 

So what date are they due? have you got everything in place ready?

Dreamy says hi to her little brothers and sisters to be  (although the judge didn't call her the "naughty labrador" for nothing yesterday hehe )


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> I said I was fairly certain she was straight from seeing the first photos of her, and glad you have had her scanned, you needed to know - and now she's been shaved, you really can see it loud and clear.
> 
> How far gone is she now? be careful about feeding her up too early - she needs everything she has to go to the babies and not her.
> 
> I don't know what quantities of raw you feed, but I switch my girls to puppy food at around 6/7 weeks and by the time they are due, they are on around 7smaller meals a day.
> 
> Get some Glucose in and some goats milk so you can keep her strength up if she has a long labour.
> 
> After whelping - she needs as much food as she will take off you - I feed mine on demand whilst they are feeding in the first couple of weeks and for the first few days give mum about a litre of Lactol on top of her meals.
> 
> She sounds very much like my Hope in some of her antics - so keep an eye on her and her feeding habits - the minute there was the first sign of teeth, she was off; fortunately, I had my suspicions this was going to happen and started weaning my last litter at just over 2 weeks.
> 
> So what date are they due? have you got everything in place ready?
> 
> Dreamy says hi to her little brothers and sisters to be  (although the judge didn't call her the "naughty labrador" for nothing yesterday hehe )


They would be due on 25 April, and no, absolutely nothing in place, hence the scan. I was so certain it wouldn't happen after everything, and I didn't want to get my hopes up. I've got a couple of people who wanted a pup recently to contact, other than that, I need to get stuff online and up to date. I'll get in touch with a couple of other breeders I know as well to let them know we'll have pups (hopefully) ooop Norf if they know of anyone wanting any up this way.

I think I'm going to have to build a whelping box, so will get that measured up and made to fit a particular corner in the kitchen, which is where I spend a lot of my time working. Indie and Rhuna will have to be confined to the basement room, which is like a large utility with a couple of rooms off that, I can easily put a gate across the stairs so they can't keep trying to come up and make a nuisance of themselves.

I think as of tomorrow she needs to go onto a little bit more, and smaller portions more often. She's having liver and fish tomorrow as well chicken, so that's easily done. She's not had any extra up until now and is on day 42.

So no, not really organised except for the theoretical bits! So lots to do!!


----------



## swarthy

You or your OH may be really handy to make a whelping box, but if you aren't - I can strongly recommend "Link-a-bord"- their customer service really is second to none.

Whelping Box

I went for the 1.4m sq

Make sure you get your vet bed in in good time, don't do what I did - Hope was three days early and I had to beg a company to do me a delivery on a Saturday morning  cost me around £50 extra - the green backed ones are cheaper and hardier than the rubber backed ones, and you can literally boil wash them (95c) without them falling to bits.

The best deals are on the big sheets and then just cut them to size 

I know we should be hitting summer, but with the whacky weather we've been having, it might be an idea to get a heatlamp in just in case - they are not expensive and cost pennies to run - I can dig out some links if you need one.

======================================

I have a number of people who have been holding out for pups from me, most do want chocolate, but I will e-mail a few of them and see if they are interested.

PM me your website link with the puppy details and your email address

I would also strongly recommend you getting yourself a Champdogs page - you will be permitted to put the litter details on straight away as she is within four weeks of being due - it does take a day or two to be reviewed - but it's one of the strongly recommended websites for prospective puppy owners.

If you give me the links etc, I will add a link / details to my website now and to the Lab Health site once the babies are on the groung


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> You or your OH may be really handy to make a whelping box, but if you aren't - I can strongly recommend "Link-a-bord"- their customer service really is second to none.
> 
> Whelping Box
> 
> I went for the 1.4m sq
> 
> Make sure you get your vet bed in in good time, don't do what I did - Hope was three days early and I had to beg a company to do me a delivery on a Saturday morning  cost me around £50 extra - the green backed ones are cheaper and hardier than the rubber backed ones, and you can literally boil wash them (95c) without them falling to bits.
> 
> The best deals are on the big sheets and then just cut them to size
> 
> I know we should be hitting summer, but with the whacky weather we've been having, it might be an idea to get a heatlamp in just in case - they are not expensive and cost pennies to run - I can dig out some links if you need one.
> 
> ======================================
> 
> I have a number of people who have been holding out for pups from me, most do want chocolate, but I will e-mail a few of them and see if they are interested.
> 
> PM me your website link with the puppy details and your email address
> 
> I would also strongly recommend you getting yourself a Champdogs page - you will be permitted to put the litter details on straight away as she is within four weeks of being due - it does take a day or two to be reviewed - but it's one of the strongly recommended websites for prospective puppy owners.
> 
> If you give me the links etc, I will add a link / details to my website now and to the Lab Health site once the babies are on the groung


Thanks for that, I think because of the shape of the corner it might be best to make a box, otherwise it may be a bit uneven as it's tiled next to the fire place. I'll measure up and see how easy/difficult it might be, and see what sort of materials I can get hold of this weekend. I'd planned to grab a small roll of lino to put under it, and I do have a good vet bed supplier locally, will get a good few bits in ready.

I've got a champdogs page, I just need to reactivate it, so I'll get onto that as well. And I've just updated my website with the details, so will pm you now any second with my contact details and the link 

I'm borrowing a heat pad off a friend, although if I'm not going to see her in time I think I'll just buy one. I'm so lucky to be pretty well off atm, so vets fees etc are not an issue!


----------



## LexiLou2

In those photos you can clearly see a huge difference now shes shaved.

This may be a stupid question but do dogs tend to be a bit more predictable than humans, like very few human babies are born on their due date are dogs a bit more predictable or do they tend to go over/be early most of the time?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> In those photos you can clearly see a huge difference now shes shaved.
> 
> This may be a stupid question but do dogs tend to be a bit more predictable than humans, like very few human babies are born on their due date are dogs a bit more predictable or do they tend to go over/be early most of the time?


I'm not expecting her to be predictable at all, I think she's already shown just how unpredictable the whole thing can be. :lol:


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm borrowing a heat pad off a friend, although if I'm not going to see her in time I think I'll just buy one. I'm so lucky to be pretty well off atm, so vets fees etc are not an issue!


The heat lamps are for hanging overhead above the whelping box and really come into their own when mum decides to go "awandering" (brilliant for winter litters).

By rights, it shouldn't even be necessary to even suggest it given the time of year - but our seasons seem to be turning themselves on their head atm - so I would strongly recommend one "just in case" they are not expensive


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> The heat lamps are for hanging overhead above the whelping box and really come into their own when mum decides to go "awandering" (brilliant for winter litters).
> 
> By rights, it shouldn't even be necessary to even suggest it given the time of year - but our seasons seem to be turning themselves on their head atm - so I would strongly recommend one "just in case" they are not expensive


Yep, I know re the heat lamps, and looking at the weather out there today might not be such a bad thing!

Just measured up the space and it's inbetween the link a bord sizes, as I thought it would be, and I'd prefer to make it as big as poss so will get some timber cut to size and get it varnished or painted in time. Looks like my weekend is sorted!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

My God her appetite has increased at a rate of knots! I've increased her intake a little, but she is so foody it's unreal. All three generally take treats nicely, Indie's the worst finger nibbler, but at the moment Tau's eating a limb she's that desperate to get the food! Will try and get some pics of her over the weekend, she was rolling around on her back earlier for a tummy fuss for ages, typically camera was nowhere to hand so I didn't get a photo


----------



## LexiLou2

Are you feeding her more frequently yet or is she still on her normal number of meals but an increased quantity?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Are you feeding her more frequently yet or is she still on her normal number of meals but an increased quantity?


She's getting slightly less but more frequently, so it works out about two and a half meals right now, and I'll slowly increase that. She's still got three weeks to go, after the pups are born she will basically get food chucked at her as much as she needs, I can just imagine Indie's face right now


----------



## LexiLou2

I can see Indies face too. The sausage lady will just have to come and visit her again!!!

I'm sure Tau will love it though!! Have a few pups and get an all you can eat room service....bargain!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just for you, managed to have camera and upside down Tau both to hand, although it's not that good a shot!


----------



## LexiLou2

See in that picture she looks really really pregnant, you can see a big difference from the ones you posted last week.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> See in that picture she looks really really pregnant, you can see a big difference from the ones you posted last week.


They must be big piglets then, cos I told her I only want a small litter


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> They must be big piglets then, cos I told her I only want a small litter


as I said - you can at least double what you've seen on the scan


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> as I said - you can at least double what you've seen on the scan


We saw two  (and possibly a couple more tucked up under her ribs)


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> We saw two  (and possibly a couple more tucked up under her ribs)


We only saw 2 with Hope on her Whiskey litter (and had 7 hehe)


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> We only saw 2 with Hope on her Whiskey litter (and had 7 hehe)


 SEVEN piglets...... 

Best get a big order in at the butchers then.......


----------



## LexiLou2

ooooh lots of little piglets!!!!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> ooooh lots of little piglets!!!!!!


Where is the dislike button when you need it


----------



## LexiLou2

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Where is the dislike button when you need it


Awww those poor little extra piglets.....its ok little piglets the sausage lady will have you!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Awww those poor little extra piglets.....its ok little piglets the sausage lady will have you!!


Ummm, have you been spending too much time with Steph recently?


----------



## LexiLou2

Quite possibly........


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Quite possibly........


Thought so! Nutter!! 

Right, I'm off to bed, I have a weekend off, apart from building a whelping bed, and sorting the house out for prospective puppy buyers to visit in a week's time to see the possible mum of their pup!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ummm, have you been spending too much time with Steph recently?


I'm not off to see her in a bit at all. :cornut:


----------



## kat&molly

Will you be keeping a pup? Being nosey


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

kat&molly said:


> Will you be keeping a pup? Being nosey


Sorry, missed this, and yes, definitely, I'd keep two if I had space/time, but I'm not sure I will unfortunately. It's the only reason I'm taking a litter from her in the first place, otherwise I'd just buy in a pup from the sort of dogs I like.

I have today, been and bought a webcam to hook up to this laptop, so hopefully, when the time comes, it'll be broadcast live and everyone can join in and see. Well, that's the plan, I'm not that good with technology though, so don't anyone hold their breath!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I've got a couple of photos to download of Tau a little later and post, of all the girls actually. She's still fit as a fiddle, although she is starting to slow down defintely. Now, if I throw something for them to fetch, Tau gives up almost as soon as she's set off, as she can see the others will beat her to it easily. She did however hunt for one they'd missed for me earlier, and you could see the sheer enjoyment on her face getting to *have a go* while Indie and Rhuna were far off in the distance having overestimated how far Mum could chuck the ball. 

Her teats are bulking up a lot, and she's resting/sleeping a lot more, so them piglets are definitely a cooking. Her diet has been increased and will I will increase portions more now she's only two weeks off. 

Still have to set up webcam but I promise I will get it sorted so hopefully it will all be online for people to witness. I've got potential puppy owners coming on Saturday to meet me and Tau, so we can decide if we get on and if they are in a position to have a pup. I've turned down a couple of people who enquired, just from how they contacted me and the questions they asked set alarm bells ringing.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

And this is her tummy at day 48, just been told she's going to be enormous by the time she's ready to pop them piglets out


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Whelping box has just arrived, really impressed, fits in the corner well, I just need to buy a piece of timber to form the base. If I'm honest, it's not a whelping box as such, it's from a company that does do them, but because of space being awkward in this little cottage, it's a rectangle not a square, and is really a raised bed. My poor girl, giving birth to pups in bit of garden equipment, never mind eh. 

I'll put photos up when I get chance, so far, only Rhuna's been in it, and I've told her in no uncertain terms not to get ANY ideas!!


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Whelping box has just arrived, really impressed, fits in the corner well, I just need to buy a piece of timber to form the base. If I'm honest, it's not a whelping box as such, it's from a company that does do them, but because of space being awkward in this little cottage, it's a rectangle not a square, and is really a raised bed. My poor girl, giving birth to pups in bit of garden equipment, never mind eh.
> 
> I'll put photos up when I get chance, so far, only Rhuna's been in it, and I've told her in no uncertain terms not to get ANY ideas!!


Believe me when I say your "poor girl" will give birth where SHE wants to give birth - don't ever try and push her to whelp somewhere she doesn't want to be - it can make them hold onto their babies.

With Hope, we eventually had to dismantle all the crates and move the whelping box so she had no option but to "see" to her puppies in there - but she gave birth to the first one in the car, the next 4 in my living room where SHE wanted to, and the last two in the crate.

Her mother whelped her first 6 pups in a crate, 1 in the car on the way to the vets, and the surprise one some 6 hours later in the whelping box - just when we thought it was all oevr


----------



## dexter

i've had one give birth on the settee.


----------



## swarthy

dexter said:


> i've had one give birth on the settee.


My last bitch decided she wanted to give birth on my settee - that my parents had given us one day before 

We kept covering it up and she kept digging it up - boy that was a fun-filled day 

But yep - they decide where to give birth - not the owner


----------



## terencesmum

swarthy said:


> But yep - they decide where to give birth - not the owner


Knowing Madam Tau, she'll decide to give birth somewhere really inappropriate. :biggrin5:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> Knowing Madam Tau, she'll decide to give birth somewhere really inappropriate. :biggrin5:


I don't know what you mean, she's a little angel is Tau, sort of.

And yes, I am quite prepared that my wonderful whelping box may not go down as well as I want it to with Tau. But I can only try and encourage her that it's a lovely, lovely box, really nice to lie down in (so far only Rhuna likes it  ).


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't know what you mean, she's a little angel is Tau, sort of.
> 
> And yes, I am quite prepared that my wonderful whelping box may not go down as well as I want it to with Tau. But I can only try and encourage her that it's a lovely, lovely box, really nice to lie down in (so far only Rhuna likes it  ).


What would you do if she gives birth on the parker knoll? Will she be okay if you move her and pups into the box? Or will she move them somewhere different as soon as your out of sight?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> What would you do if she gives birth on the parker knoll? Will she be okay if you move her and pups into the box? Or will she move them somewhere different as soon as your out of sight?


Maybe I should stick the parker knoll in the whelping box :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Tau is now in her whelping box! She has made herself comfy leaning up against one of the sides, so all is looking good for getting her used to the idea of *pups should be born here* - so, roll on the day/night, and I'm expecting her to want to whelp in the fridge in the dog room :lol:


----------



## LexiLou2

Queen Indie will not be amused if her paker knoll becomes a maternity ward!! :biggrin:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Queen Indie will not be amused if her paker knoll becomes a maternity ward!! :biggrin:


Well there are two parker knolls, should be enough to go round 

I don't like bumping my own thread time after time, but I was fussing Tau earlier, felt her tum, and felt a couple of pups move. All the time with Tau on her back and a big smile on her face, I think she knows she's got a girlie piglet cooking in there for me, and was just teasing.


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well there are two parker knolls, should be enough to go round
> 
> I don't like bumping my own thread time after time, but I was fussing Tau earlier, felt her tum, and felt a couple of pups move. All the time with Tau on her back and a big smile on her face, I think she knows she's got a girlie piglet cooking in there for me, and was just teasing.


You're not doing anything to help my puppy broodiness!! At least, there aren't any Flatcoats a-cooking in there.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just another photo of Tau's increasing girth, she really is a porker now!










And this is Rhuna testing the whelping box out, need to get it painted asap, have got a base for it now as well, just need to chop a bit off and get that painted 










I have to say, Tau is now struggling to jump on the garden table, quitter :lol:

(Joking aside, I am discouraging her from jumping on high furniture, but she's a b*gga!!)


----------



## Tarnus

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I have to say, Tau is now struggling to jump on the garden table, quitter :lol:


not surprised, seeing as it looks like you've chopped off her back legs in that photo!


----------



## Mad4Muttz

can anyone tell me what is the minimum number of health checks you should do/have before planning on breeding

thanks!! xx


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Mad4Muttz said:


> can anyone tell me what is the minimum number of health checks you should do/have before planning on breeding
> 
> thanks!! xx


There is no minimum, or maximum, there are a couple I haven't used for this litter, Narcolepsy and Dwarfism, but they're not generally a problem within the breed overall. There are somewhere around 17 health tests in development and available for Labs, tell me it's just coincidence they're the most popular breed? Soon enough, every breed will see these health tests become available, because the evidence is starting to emerge that these problems are not just within a breed, but are affecting many breeds Not because pedigrees are unhealthy overall, but because they all share genetic similarities, and some of those similarities are defects.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Spent a bit of time with a lovely young couple this morning, who came over to meet Tau, and they've done all their research and know how difficult it will be at times. How refreshing! 

However, I've been battling with a Tesco webcam for the last hour, seems to install, and then can't find the driver when I plug the camera in, any ideas?


----------



## love our big babies

Mad4Muttz said:


> can anyone tell me what is the minimum number of health checks you should do/have before planning on breeding
> 
> thanks!! xx


There is usually a list of priority health issues on KC website for each breed.
Or try a breed club for your particular dog.

I know the French bulldog of England club has a list of what tests should be done and also you can request a health test check list from them to take to your Vet.


----------



## claire & the gang

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Spent a bit of time with a lovely young couple this morning, who came over to meet Tau, and they've done all their research and know how difficult it will be at times. How refreshing!
> 
> However, I've been battling with a Tesco webcam for the last hour, seems to install, and then can't find the driver when I plug the camera in, any ideas?


It may be that the driver its sold with is outdated...try googling to see if you can find online download for latest driver


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Well I've had two lots of potential puppy owners come and meet me and Tau today, and I'm really happy with both of them, very clued up, lots of research and willing to learn all they need to, also expecting the havoc having a new Labrador puppy will bring.  

Still not worked out the webcam, may have a dabble a little later, bloomin' thing!!


----------



## jo5

It all getting very exciting now isn't it I don't know if you have answered this but are you keeping a pup regardless or will you *have* to have a bitch and certain colour? What I mean is I know you have bitches so if all pups were male would you keep one and if you do get a bitch are you hoping for Chocolate?
If Belle had been pregnant I wanted a Bitch, she would have had Goldens, Black and the chance of Black and Tan, in a perfect world I would have kept a Golden Bitch ...I think lol


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

jo5 said:


> It all getting very exciting now isn't it I don't know if you have answered this but are you keeping a pup regardless or will you *have* to have a bitch and certain colour? What I mean is I know you have bitches so if all pups were male would you keep one and if you do get a bitch are you hoping for Chocolate?
> If Belle had been pregnant I wanted a Bitch, she would have had Goldens, Black and the chance of Black and Tan, in a perfect world I would have kept a Golden Bitch ...I think lol


I want to keep a bitch pup back from Tau, whether that's chocolate or black I don't mind, not as keen on keeping back a yellow, but we'll see what's in there. The waiting list is bitch heavy, I've stopped taking *definite* names for bitches, and am telling people it's more of an if there is one now when chatting to them. I'd struggle if they were all boys, as I would really want to keep one having waited for so long, in an ideal situation I would keep one of each in any case, but with work being as manic as it is, keeping two would be a nightmare for me, and I wouldn't achieve my aims most likely with even one of them, let alone with two to run round after.


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I want to keep a bitch pup back from Tau, whether that's chocolate or black I don't mind, not as keen on keeping back a yellow, but we'll see what's in there. The waiting list is bitch heavy, I've stopped taking *definite* names for bitches, and am telling people it's more of an if there is one now when chatting to them. I'd struggle if they were all boys, as I would really want to keep one having waited for so long, in an ideal situation I would keep one of each in any case, but with work being as manic as it is, keeping two would be a nightmare for me, and I wouldn't achieve my aims most likely with even one of them, let alone with two to run round after.


I'll volunteer to look after your boy for you.


----------



## Tarnus

It's a shame we weren't ready for another pup just yet as I would've been top of the list for a boy!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I'll try and post a pic of Tau either later on or tomorrow, she is HUGE, there's definitely more than two in there, and they are little squigglers now, one week and two days to her due date, she has stopped jumping on the garden table, and I tell her no if she looks as if she's about to try. She's sleeping loads now, eating quite a lot, and struggles to run around with the others.


----------



## LexiLou2

I'll think we need to all have a guess as to piglet numbers.

I'll start as you know I think 9.


----------



## dandogman

I am going to say 7 as that was the amount of pups in Pippa's litter!


----------



## Firedog

Eight little fatties in there.


----------



## Amy-manycats

Going for 7 too. :001_wub:


----------



## jo5

I am going to say 5 as she was 'showing' later on and I am going to say 3 boys 2 girls


----------



## noushka05

im going with Jo and guessing 5...but i'll say 3 girls, 2 boys, just to mix it up a bit lol


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Nicki, you know you can go off people very quickly 

Just before I head out to work, managed to snap a couple of photos of her this morning, she is GINORMOUS!!

Whelping box either needs painting, or I'll use it in the garden after this litter and get another one if I ever breed again. The base is in the back of the van, it's just set up for her to get used to it being there


----------



## goodvic2

Jo - have the other dogs changed towards her?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

No, not at all, Indie's still in charge, Rhuna occasionally checks her teats out, other than that, no change, they're still a happy threesome. But I won't be taking any chances once pups are here, the other two will be confined to the dog room downstairs, and then once the pups are big enough we'll swap them over and partition off a run for them downstairs. It's a concrete floor down there so easy enough to clean up and it's conveniently next to the washing machine, which I envisage using a fair bit!


----------



## LexiLou2

Has Taus personality changed at all, is she still playing with the others or is she keeping herself more to herself? Has she changed towards you?


----------



## terencesmum

MY GOODNESS!!! She is HUGE!!! 

I'll go for 8 and 4 of each.  
I'm glad it's LexiLou2 who's doing the puppy sitting when they are 6 weeks. :dita:


----------



## Izzysmummy

Im gonna guess 6. 2 girls, 4 boys. 2 black, 3 chocolate and 1 yellow! 

Shes huge now....lots of nice chunky little piglets cooking in there!


----------



## moonviolet

My goodness she has ballooned, I have no idea how many so i'll guess 7. I'm so excited for you. Just want them all to be healthy and bonny.


----------



## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> MY GOODNESS!!! She is HUGE!!!
> 
> I'll go for 8 and 4 of each.
> I'm glad it's LexiLou2 who's doing the puppy sitting when they are 6 weeks. :dita:


Why, because they are going to be a handful or because you will be tempted to steal them?


----------



## Pointermum

Wow she's getting big, how long has she got left?


----------



## LexiLou2

Pointermum said:


> Wow she's getting big, how long has she got left?


A week and a day.


----------



## Pointermum

LexiLou2 said:


> A week and a day.


Awww not long now then, super exciting


----------



## jo5

She is a lot bigger but I am sticking with 5 , she has rather large boobies which I think are accounting for some of her 'bulk' bless her, she is looking good though considering how little time she has left
Are you all ready and stocked up?


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

LexiLou2 said:


> A week and a day.


Haha... Not that your counting! :lol:

I'm going with 6, 2boys 4girls


----------



## LexiLou2

Tula&Iver~cavs said:


> Haha... Not that your counting! :lol:
> 
> I'm going with 6, 2boys 4girls


I admit to been sad but I'm not that sad, her due date is 2 days before my birthday.


----------



## Quinzell

Wow, the time is just flying! I can't believe she has just over a week to go!

My vote is 5 in total, 2 girls and 3 boys


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Has Taus personality changed at all, is she still playing with the others or is she keeping herself more to herself? Has she changed towards you?


She's a little quieter, but she's still the same with the other two, just not quite as often, she is sleeping quite a lot as well now. The one thing she doesn't appreciate are Rhuna's attempts to get her to play when outside, but she just ignores her and closes her eyes to get her to b*gga off.



jo5 said:


> She is a lot bigger but I am sticking with 5 , she has rather large boobies which I think are accounting for some of her 'bulk' bless her, she is looking good though considering how little time she has left
> Are you all ready and stocked up?


Not quite ready, as you can see from the whelping box, hopefully will be ready by the weekend


----------



## kat&molly

I cant believe she only has around a week to go
Exciting times.
Will guess at 7. 4 boys and 3 girlies.


----------



## Jenny Olley

I'll guess 10, 7 girls 3 boys, she still has a week to go so will have a really fat tummy by then.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

A few more photos for you, one week to go!!


----------



## terencesmum

Holy Bejeesus!!!! 
She is MAHOOSSIVE!!!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Yes, isn't she! 

And the good news is, I've got a webcam up and working, so will try and get the whole thing live on camera for people to see.


----------



## claire & the gang

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes, isn't she!
> 
> And the good news is, I've got a webcam up and working, so will try and get the whole thing live on camera for people to see.


ooo well done you lol....can`t wait to watch the piglets


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes, isn't she!
> 
> And the good news is, I've got a webcam up and working, so will try and get the whole thing live on camera for people to see.


It would be ever so lovely, if you could text me when all the action starts.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> It would be ever so lovely, if you could text me when all the action starts.


I hope we'll all get plenty of notice, but you know what she's like!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I hope we'll all get plenty of notice, but you know what she's like!


Mr T and I will be glued to the laptop and watching the piglets being born (hopefully).


----------



## dexter

crikey how many she got in there?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

dexter said:


> crikey how many she got in there?


She had an elephant for her tea! *sigh* I really don't think she listened to my pleas for a small litter!


----------



## dexter

Sleeping_Lion said:


> She had an elephant for her tea! *sigh* I really don't think she listened to my pleas for a small litter!


lol. she may be giving evrything to the pups


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> She had an elephant for her tea! *sigh* I really don't think she listened to my pleas for a small litter!


And we were thinking she hadn't taken. :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> And we were thinking she hadn't taken. :lol:


I know!

Another update, the food I've gone for for new puppy owners is Simpsons Premium Natural Hypoallergenic, it's not overly expensive, and the ingredients look very acceptable 

No-one so far wants to raw feed, never mind eh!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Finally! 

Tarimoor on USTREAM: .


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Finally!
> 
> Tarimoor on USTREAM: .


It's riveting!! Much better than the dreadful footie, the OH is making me watch.

I cannot believe how massive she looks. I wanna come and give her a snuggle.:001_wub:


----------



## LexiLou2

She is huge!!!! Are you sure shes having piglets and not calves?!?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I'm taking it neither of you can see any pics currently, we went offline while we ate tea, and there is no way to get back online that I can see, bl**dy technology!!


----------



## dobermummy

i think she is having 11


----------



## CockersIndie

im very excited for the live stream! hopefully the email notification will work and i'll catch it all. good luck with it all, hope she's carrying the perfect number of healthy pups for you!


----------



## jo5

Just signed up for email notification, could you ask her to whelp on Sun/Mon if at all possible, my Husband is in Sheffield waytching his Nephew play at the Crucible, so I will be able to watch non stop without his inane comments, 
Many thanks Jo


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

jo5 said:


> Just signed up for email notification, could you ask her to whelp on Sun/Mon if at all possible, my Husband is in Sheffield waytching his Nephew play at the Crucible, so I will be able to watch non stop without his inane comments,
> Many thanks Jo


I will ask her as nicely as possible, and see what happens!


----------



## jo5

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I will ask her as nicely as possible, and see what happens!


Thanks much appreciated, tell her theres some Livercake in it for her if she comes up trumps


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Will mention the livercake, just pressed 'broadcast' again, she's HUGE!!


----------



## jo5

Ooooh I can see her, I can see her, aw bless.


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

I'm just downloading the Ustream App for my phone


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

Yayyy its working  and there's a pup moving just above the back teat at the left of the screen


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

When I set it up over the whelping box (God I hope she thinks it's a good idea to have the pups in there) I'll try and put it up a little higher so you can all see more of her and hopefully pups


----------



## LexiLou2

Shes HUGE!!! I'm sorry but I really don't think you are getting that small litter you told her you wanted!!

I'd like her to whelp on Friday please, a week tomorrow, then they will be born on my birthday.


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

I can't stop watching her  Battery is nearly dead :lol:


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> Shes HUGE!!! I'm sorry but I really don't think you are getting that small litter you told her you wanted!!
> 
> I'd like her to whelp on Friday please, *a week tomorrow*, then they will be born on my birthday.


No chance! I'm guessing she'll drop this weekend.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just having some lunch, and I didn't think people would appreciate listening to me eat. Tau had a bit of tripe and is loving the extra portions. Will turn it back on in a few mins


----------



## gorgeous

How does one sign up to the Webcam coverage or is it by invitationn only?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

gorgeous said:


> How does one sign up to the Webcam coverage or is it by invitationn only?


Just click on the link I posted, I've just clicked *broadcast* again, Tau's hiding in the corner but there's a pesky flatcoat on atm. Never thought I'd have my own live channel online :lol:

http://www.ustream.tv/embed/10915929

Live video by Ustream

Hope that works.....


----------



## gorgeous

Thats amazing,, lol...although I might end up buying some bedding as well as dog napping the pupsters lol...wow this is trully fab..I am loving it lol


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

gorgeous said:


> Thats amazing,, lol...although I might end up buying some bedding as well as dog napping the pupsters lol...wow this is trully fab..I am loving it lol


I'll give her a fuss and see if I can get her to roll over, hopefully people can hear the grunts, one of the reasons she's called piglet!


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

Shes not budging bless her.


----------



## terencesmum

Sometimes you can see the little piglets moving!!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Tula&Iver~cavs said:


> Shes not budging bless her.


I thought your battery would be dead by now? :lol:


----------



## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> Sometimes you can see the little piglets moving!!!!


I noticed that earlier, she was laid sleeping and her tummy kept moving.


----------



## gorgeous

I can definitely see pupsters moving in there - like a mexican wave sometimes lol,,,,,

I reckon there is at least 10 in there - probs 12....and I guess 8 girls, 4 boys.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

She's only got nine nipples, so I hope there's not too many in there!!  

Can people hear sound ok btw?


----------



## ragamuff

OMG dont think that is a little litter lol. Im so excised for you xxx


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> She's only got nine nipples, so I hope there's not too many in there!!
> 
> Can people hear sound ok btw?


Looks like LexiLou2 and myself will have to be quite hands on when puppy sitting


----------



## gorgeous

I am available for maternity nurse duties if needed,,,,,


----------



## terencesmum

Is Heather dropping off some whelping equipment for you? If she is, she best be quick! :blink:


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I thought your battery would be dead by now? :lol:


:lol: put it on charge while you was eating :lol:


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

AWWWW just saw little paws pushing out her tum 

And.... A big black bum hahaha


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Tula&Iver~cavs said:


> AWWWW just saw little paws pushing out her tum
> 
> And.... A big black bum hahaha


Oh good, I was trying to get a close up for folks!


----------



## terencesmum

sleeping_lion said:


> oh good, i was trying to get a close up for folks!


i missed it!!!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Are you watching now, if yes, I'll try again?


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Are you watching now, if yes, I'll try again?


yes, i'm watching on FB.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Right, well keep watching......


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

Give em a poke to wake em up :lol:


----------



## terencesmum

I saw a little squiglet!!!!
I am actually feeling really emotional now.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

terencesmum said:


> I saw a little squiglet!!!!
> I am actually feeling really emotional now.


Are you blubbing?!


----------



## terencesmum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Are you blubbing?!


Maybe? 
You know what I'm like!


----------



## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> I saw a little squiglet!!!!
> I am actually feeling really emotional now.


Youre always emotional!! 

I hope Tau and her piglets realise just how famous they are!!! Steamed live on the internet and everything!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Youre always emotional!!
> 
> I hope Tau and her piglets realise just how famous they are!!! Steamed live on the internet and everything!!!


Steamed


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

Argh.... Phone died


----------



## LexiLou2

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Steamed


ooooppps


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Tula&Iver~cavs said:


> Argh.... Phone died


I'm turning it off in a few mins in any case, need to go get some stuff out of my van for work, and finish up for the day. And I've got to go and get the girls out before I head off to buy something for tea, not very organised today!


----------



## gorgeous

Hey! Can we not sky plus bits we miss?

Okay you go get yourself sorted and perhaps you can switch it on a bit later for some more pupster squiggles!


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> You're always emotional!!


Great, just portray me as some sort of crazy dog lady who keeps crying all the time. Oooh, hang on.... :cryin:


----------



## AliceCollie

I missed most of this thread, but have caught up now 
Just wanted to say congratulations on the pregnancy! And if the live stream works, i'll actually be able to watch a birth  which will be amazing! I'm so excited for you!!


----------



## Pointermum

Aww Rhuna :001_tt1:


----------



## love our big babies

I was getting all excited there thinking Tau was having her little piggies now!! haha 

Good luck for when they come along and I hope your girl is a great mummy, which I'm sure she will be  She does have you coaching her afterall


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

Posted on the wrong thread earlier ....... Oops 

Why can't I chat/comment on the video?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

No idea, have you registered? There's a chat thing next to the video for me, but I've got two windows open, one is the live camera, which is a few seconds ahead of the ustream video.


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

I've registered and can chat on other vids 

Just signed up with FaceBook too.


----------



## xhuskyloverx

Ahh thats a really good idea  

Noones going to be able to sleep now just in case anything happens!


----------



## LexiLou2

Haha hubby is sat watching alien vs predator and I'm sat watching.... well a blank floor at the mo....


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Tula&Iver~cavs said:


> I've registered and can chat on other vids
> 
> Just signed up with FaceBook too.


No idea why you can't comment then, others are definitely able to, not sure if it's in the settings somewhere as far as I know it's open for anyone to view and comment on?


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No idea why you can't comment then, others are definitely able to, not sure if it's in the settings somewhere as far as I know it's open for anyone to view and comment on?


I can comment on Ustream website but not on the App but I can comment on there bids with the App!
O welly... as long as I can see Tau I'm a happy bunny


----------



## gorgeous

Whats happening?:nono: Got my cup of coffee already to see the pupsters wriggling and nowt on?

:cryin:


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

gorgeous said:


> Whats happening?:nono: Got my cup of coffee already to see the pupsters wriggling and nowt on?
> 
> :cryin:


I made sure I charged my phone up last night ready for the morning show :lol:


----------



## Cay

You're brave, to much can go wrong for me to ever consider filming a birth. Hope it goes well for you .


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Sorry guys, been busy today and Tau is currently fast asleep downstairs in the dog room. I don't think it's gonna be that much longer to be honest, she is absolutely huge, so it's a race between the paint drying on her whelping box and the pups arriving


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just a quick post to say she's off, typically on the day when I'd painted her whelping box in preparation, so can't put it back up yet as the paint is still too tacky. Trust her! Forgive me if I disappear, and I'm sorry if it doesn't all get shown on the webcam, but she comes first I'm afraid.


----------



## claire & the gang

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just a quick post to say she's off, typically on the day when I'd painted her whelping box in preparation, so can't put it back up yet as the paint is still too tacky. Trust her! Forgive me if I disappear, and I'm sorry if it doesn't all get shown on the webcam, but she comes first I'm afraid.


Good luck & a safe whelping...& give Tau a big kiss x


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

What.... has she started? :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

Think I could pee myself with excitement  :lol:

Good luck, fingers crosses all goes well


----------



## Firedog

Best wishes,hope all goes well.


----------



## Galadriel17

Hope all goes well!!


----------



## LexiLou2

Good Luck honey!!!!!!


----------



## gorgeous

Good luck Tau!


----------



## catseyes

Good luck tau, fingers crossed it all goes smoothly. x


----------



## shetlandlover

Good luck!!!!!


----------



## Izzysmummy

Good luck Tau and SL! So exciting!


----------



## swarthy

Hope everything goes smoothly x


----------



## terencesmum

Bloody typical! I'd told her to wait til after dog training!!! Good luck!!! Xxx


----------



## EmzieAngel

Good luck.
Hope it goes smoothly!!
xx


----------



## xhuskyloverx

Good luck, hope everything goes ok


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

I'm off to the land of nod now...

Just wanted to wish you and Tau all the best for tonight x


----------



## CockersIndie

good luck! hope tau is ok and all the pups arrive safely x


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Good luck mummy Tau .

Hope all goes well xx


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Sorry guys, restless night, no webcam as nothing is really happening, panting on and off, still very much first stage signs even though she did pass those fluids early on. Pups are still moving, and I'm about to get the car out and get her down to the vets for a scan to see how we're doing. Tau as usual, keeping me guessing, as she likes to  

I will update when I can, but after a night sleeping on the kitchen floor I may not be up to much today!


----------



## noushka05

good luck, hope it all goes smoothly for Tau x


----------



## moonviolet

Best wishes for Tau and you and the pups.

I'm not sure I'm going to be stepping too far from my laptop, Have your ustream page book marked and I'm more excited than a kid at christmas.:yesnod:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Cervix isn't fully dilated yet, if we don't see any action by lunch time/early afternoon, back to vets and think again. Pups are moving and seem fine, no signs of distress, lots of heartbeats to be seen. So until then, we're off for a rest, cream crackered


----------



## jo5

Blinkin eck, I go out for an evening and it all kicks off
Hope everything goes smoothly for you and Tau, NOT going anywhere today


----------



## Quinzell

OMG I can't believe so much has happened since I last popped on!!! 

Good luck SL and Tau.....can't wait to hear more.

I've got the Webcam link permanently open. Do you think you will be switching it on later today?


----------



## dexter

good luck how it all goes well. i wouldn't worry too much about webcam , you'll be too busy whelping


----------



## jayne5364

Hope you manage a little sleep before it all starts again. Good luck to you and Tau. I've signed up to see the webcam but it just shows as fb user and a number just incase you think random eeps have signed up. I've got the grandkids here so hope I manage to see some of it.


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

Morning 
Hope all is going well. 

Tula done the same to me, kept me up all night. By 5am I decided to get a little shut eye on the sofa, by 7am OH woke to say its happening and I've never jumped up so quick :lol: by 7:30 first pup was born.

Don't worry about the webcam its just one more thing for you to think about 

Give Tau a big cuddle from me and you have a nice strong coffee


----------



## LexiLou2

Hope you're ok and everythimg is going well xx


----------



## Pointermum

I'm off shopping  hope all goes well


----------



## love our big babies

Good luck and hope all goes well today.

It's typical that they wait until you are having a rest and then along comes pups!


----------



## Quinzell

Doh! Just realize how selfish my post sounded....of course, I didn't mean it that way and the webcam should be the last thing on your mind  

Hope everything is going well.....thinking of you!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Still in touch with vets, no contractions yet, more clear stringy discharge earlier, pups wriggling around actively, so we're just waiting for things to run their course naturally if possible. I think she's holding out for a full 24 hour first stage, typical madam!! 

Off for a snooze, just done the rounds in the garden letting them all go for leg stretch and toilet break, will try and update as soon as I can, no webcam atm, as there's nowt to see really, and she keeps wandering off to different spots, including the bed I've made up for me on the kitchen floor, and I can vouch it ain't comfortable, hey ho!!


----------



## LexiLou2

Tell her to keep her legs crossed until about 4.30 please, Stephs coming over for a walk and knowing Tau it will all kick off when neither of us are about  Might send Craig out with the dogs and we can sit and wait....just in case.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Looks like things are starting to get ready, been to the vets so we didn't go into the evening wondering whether anything was happening down there, and definite signs, cervix dilating, loosening up generally, and definite temperature drop. I'm just about to get something to eat, only had a bit of breakfast earlier, I hate eating when stuff like this is going on! Will try and update later, and see how we go. 

xx


----------



## moonviolet

Could be in for a busy night  Don't forget to take care of yourself too.


----------



## terencesmum

I best be reading up on how to look after tiny pups! 
I thought I'd be on birth watch tomorrow morning!!!


----------



## swarthy

terencesmum said:


> I best be reading up on how to look after tiny pups!
> I thought I'd be on birth watch tomorrow morning!!!


Tiny pups are the easy bit if mum is doing her job properly - it's usually rescuing them from creeping up mum's backside and stopping her laying on them - - it requires you to be alert and not taking your eyes off them - then feeding mum on demand 

Although that involves no sleep, the real fun with puppies starts when they are weaning and mobile hehe :lol:


----------



## terencesmum

swarthy said:


> Tiny pups are the easy bit if mum is doing her job properly - it's usually rescuing them from creeping up mum's backside and stopping her laying on them - - it requires you to be alert and not taking your eyes off them - then feeding mum on demand


 No pressure then.


----------



## swarthy

terencesmum said:


> No pressure then.


 it's not as bad as it sounds honestly 

Unfortunately, mums often (particularly in the early days) won't realise they may have laid / try to lie on a pup - it's like constant number counting every time someone moves.

Mum does all the hard work though in terms of feeding and (hopefully) stimulating to toilet and cleaning.

Other than that - if there are smaller pups, you could be doing "switch arounds" to the juicier teats - you will be amazed how quickly these pups can find their way to mum and push the smaller ones off the teats 

and by around 4 weeks, if mum is still feeding, I feel sorry for her - because they are like savages - even when they are getting the bulk of their food from proper food


----------



## terencesmum

swarthy said:


> it's not as bad as it sounds honestly
> 
> Unfortunately, mums often (particularly in the early days) won't realise they may have laid / try to lie on a pup - it's like constant number counting every time someone moves.
> 
> Mum does all the hard work though in terms of feeding and (hopefully) stimulating to toilet and cleaning.
> 
> Other than that - if there are smaller pups, you could be doing "switch arounds" to the juicier teats - you will be amazed how quickly these pups can find their way to mum and push the smaller ones off the teats
> 
> and by around 4 weeks, if mum is still feeding, I feel sorry for her - because they are like savages - even when they are getting the bulk of their food from proper food


That's assuming that Tau will let me near the pups!! I am hoping Jo is making me a list of "Do's".


----------



## swarthy

terencesmum said:


> That's assuming that Tau will let me near the pups!! I am hoping Jo is making me a list of "Do's".


Touch wood, I've not had any of my girls unhappy about humans handling their babies - and TBH - hope I never do - my eldest would watch you like a hawk though - particularly if it was people she didn't know.

Other dogs OTOH slightly different - and important to keep the others away until mum decides it's OK.

With her first litter, my Halls actually went to find Clover when the pups were a couple of days old, it was so gorgeously sweet - Clover used to lay on the settee just watching over the whelping box.

Apart from my eldest boy who managed to plonk himself right in the middle of the whelping box one day whilst mum wasn't with them. again, touch wood, I've never had the others try to get in - they instinctively seemed to know in the early weeks that they shouldn't even go and have a nosy :lol:


----------



## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> That's assuming that Tau will let me near the pups!! I am hoping Jo is making me a list of "Do's".


You'll be fine, its not like Tau doesn't know you at all, I woudl guess she'll just keep an eye on you more than anything.


----------



## dexter

LexiLou2 said:


> You'll be fine, its not like Tau doesn't know you at all, I woudl guess she'll just keep an eye on you more than anything.


crikey i let my nephew look at Sals pups at 2 days old ( she knew him well!) she ripped his sleeve off him. oops


----------



## LexiLou2

dexter said:


> crikey i let my nephew look at Sals pups at 2 days old ( she knew him well!) she ripped his sleeve off him. oops


shhhhh don't tell her that shes panicking as it is. 

Mind you suppose its better to be prepared.


----------



## terencesmum

Well, I'll just have to see how she goes. 
Jo might not want to leave her after all, in which case, I will be making Jo a nice fry-up and large coffee. 
Tau knows me (and I would like to think she likes me, too), but motherhood is a game changer. I would chop anyone's balls off if they tried to do something unsavoury with my kids, so would expect the same of any mum.


----------



## CockersIndie

i wonder how it's going, i've been refreshing this thread all day in anticipation of news. hope all is well SL


----------



## LexiLou2

CockersIndie said:


> i wonder how it's going, i've been refreshing this thread all day in anticipation of news. hope all is well SL


You're not the only one


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Sorry guys, no good news atm, if she doesn't start within the next hour and twenty mins it's a c-section, we had a bit of digging and a couple of half hearted attempts at contractions four hours ago, have been keeping a close eye on her since, pups are still wriggling, she's just been out and done the most awful stinky diarrhoea, which I've been expecting forever, but might just be too late. Steph, if you log on here and don't see your phone, I'll be out by the time you're meant to arrive if things don't start moving, so don't set off unless I tell you to. And yes, you'll be on fry up duties if you do still come over.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry guys, no good news atm, if she doesn't start within the next hour and twenty mins it's a c-section, we had a bit of digging and a couple of half hearted attempts at contractions four hours ago, have been keeping a close eye on her since, pups are still wriggling, she's just been out and done the most awful stinky diarrhoea, which I've been expecting forever, but might just be too late. Steph, if you log on here and don't see your phone, I'll be out by the time you're meant to arrive if things don't start moving, so don't set off unless I tell you to. And yes, you'll be on fry up duties if you do still come over.


How long has she been panting and digging for Jo?

Why is there such a time-limit on a c-section? I've known of maiden bitches in the first stages of labour for 36 to 48 hours.

I usually keep the vet on speed dial - but usually they would look for her to have been straining for a a while with nothing happening.

Hally dug the house up before she had her first pup - Hope saw the vet - tested for pre-eclampsia and given an oxytocin injection.

She is still 4 days early.

*This isn't me saying "don't speak to the vet" for advice regularly - but I am a little curious if she isn't straining and obviously struggling to deliver a pup why you have such a stringent timing on her having a c-section.*

If she has been straining for 20 to 30 minutes and nothing happening - forget waiting - you should already be on the phone to the vets.

Also - it's IMPERATIVE that eyes kept on bitches are subtle and discrete - they won't deliver the first one if you are following them around with your arm almost stuck to their rear end - once the first one is out if the bitch is comfortable with it, then the dynamics will change somewhat.

Obviously - you have to be with her - because she could deliver when going out for a wee etc - but I followed Hally around like a sheep - then at 2pm - I rang the vets - whilst the little b*ggar dropped her first pup in Clover's empty crate  (Clover was at a show with the OH)


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Lol, I'm taking her down anyway Sue, see how she's doing, how dilated she has got, and how those pups are doing as well, if all is well, then I'm going to tell the vet we'll wait on longer and see if she can deliver naturally. She's fine in herself, she's very, very clingy, only a small bit of digging overnight with a very cursory attempt at a *strain* which looked as though she was going to the loo. Will update when back from the vets, it all depends on how those pups look, one did look breech on the scan yesterday, but the vet then wasn't too concerned.

Edited to add, thank you, the second piece of exactly the same advice which is what we wanted to hear, ie not to rush ahead with the c-section if all else is well, even if it does seem a helluva first stage she's having!


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Lol, I'm taking her down anyway Sue, see how she's doing, how dilated she has got, and how those pups are doing as well, if all is well, then I'm going to tell the vet we'll wait on longer and see if she can deliver naturally. She's fine in herself, she's very, very clingy, only a small bit of digging overnight with a very cursory attempt at a *strain* which looked as though she was going to the loo. Will update when back from the vets, it all depends on how those pups look, one did look breech on the scan yesterday, but the vet then wasn't too concerned.
> 
> Edited to add, thank you, the second piece of exactly the same advice which is what we wanted to hear, ie not to rush ahead with the c-section if all else is well, even if it does seem a helluva first stage she's having!


Trouble is, every time you are moving her and getting her scanned etc - you are interfering with the natural process of whelping.

Once we've actually needed to go to the vets during the early stages of Labour and that's because Hope was straining intermittently but clearly didn't want to deliver the first pup - a shot of Oxytocin sorted her out.

I am not saying don't involve your vet, I would just be concerned that all this interfering in itself could lead to her needing a c-section where one isn't absolutely necessary 

ETA - can you describe her behaviour and what she is actually doing?


----------



## gorgeous

I hope all goes well for you Tau and you deliver your beautiful babies smoothly and safely.


----------



## claire & the gang

The first stage can seem to take forever...especially as at that point your just wanting the litter safe on the ground.

Hope things start moving soon...Tau is just making sure she keeps you in suspence


----------



## noushka05

everything crossed here that it all goes smoothly here


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Quick update, phoned the vet earlier this morning as not really any change, apart from some very smelly diarrhoea first thing when she went to the loo in the garden. Pups will still wriggling fine, so took her to the vets for 8am to let him have a look at her, and discuss what to do. Internal examination found there was nothing presented, although Tau didn't stay very still for that one, scan showed pups with heart beats, but not a clear picture of how many and where they were positioned. So we x-rayed her, she stood still for all of three seconds then escaped back to her mum in the waiting room, and the x-ray showed numerous skulls and spines, we couldn't count them all, but one pup had it's spine curved top to bottom across the cervix blocking the way. With not much wriggle room I took the decision with a bit of helpful advice from a friend, to go for the c-section, not ideal, but no way to tell if that pup would move, and Tau was pretty tired already. I was in tears leaving her, after all, she's my mummy's girl, but had a phone call a few mins ago to say she's doing fine, and we have eight pups, don't know what yet, just waiting for the call to say Tau is round from the anaesthetic. Not ideal, but not an easy decision either, so I just made the best decision I could for my girl.


----------



## Quinzell

Oh wow! What an emotional roller coaster for you xxx

So glad to hear that mum and pups are doing well. 8!!!!!! *8* Wow wee! I think that was the maximum anyone predicted, wasn't it?

I hope things continue to go smoothly and its not long before she and the little ones are all back home with you.


----------



## claire & the gang

We can only base our best decisions on the information we have available. You did what you felt was best for your girl & pups. Its horrible having to leave them at the vets....the waiting for news is horrendous!!

So congratulations on the 8 newcomers...hope to hear what colours & sexes soon

Hoping Tau comes round well & isn`t too confused by her new bundles:thumbsup:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LouiseH said:


> Oh wow! What an emotional roller coaster for you xxx
> 
> So glad to hear that mum and pups are doing well. 8!!!!!! *8* Wow wee! I think that was the maximum anyone predicted, wasn't it?
> 
> I hope things continue to go smoothly and its not long before she and the little ones are all back home with you.


I think there were a couple of higher guesses, we'll see how we get on over the next couple of weeks, and I will hopefully get some pics up, and the webcam going once she's settled back in hopefully. The difficult thing will be her coming round from anaesthetic and having 8 pups being a completely new mum. No idea of colours/sexes yet, just pleased that so far so good.


----------



## Cay

Congratulations on your litter .


----------



## gorgeous

Congratulations on the birth of the 8 pupsters......well done Tau.!!

That will definitely keep Tau busy..bless her. I hope Tau has a speedy recovery.

Look forward to the updates and to see the little babies!


----------



## dexter

gosh its all happened so quick. hope she's ok.


----------



## noushka05

aw dont be upset, i think you did the right thing not to take any chances

my Luna had to have a ceasar and you would have never guessed, 30 minutes after the op they walked her out on the lead and she just jumped into the van....she took to her pups immediately she saw them,... so please try not to worry, im sure Tau and the puppies will be fine

ohh & Congratulations!!!:thumbsup:


----------



## shetlandlover

Congrats and well done, its not a easy choice deciding when to say "right c-sections best" but you have done what's best for your girl and the pups. 

I hope to see plenty of pics! Your going to have fun with 8 little land sharks zipping round your house. :thumbsup:

Big hugs to Tau.


----------



## moonviolet

I bet you can't wait to see your girl and her little piglets. It will be wonderful to hear they are all home safe and sound and doing well.


----------



## jo5

Huge congratulations, WOW 8 never saw that coming she didn't look that big to me, she will be back to her bikini body in no time, weight must have been all pups. 
I really hope she manages with motherhood after a c section, my Sister has a breed which despite trying to achieve a self whelping line has needed c sections and neither of her bitches have taken to motherhood afterwards so I hope Tau is a natural for you and her pups. 
You can only make a decision based on the evidence set before you, with the possibility of one pup covering the cervix then you made the best choice for your girl. 
I am sure out of 8 you will have the sex and colour of your choice, I look forward to updates and of course pics.
Congratulations again to all involved


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just had a phone call from the vet, basically, Tau was never going to have that litter naturally, the pup that was blocking the way was right in the centre and she could not have passed it normally, he also said he wouldn't have known if I hadn't told him the pups are 3 days premature, they are that big, so all pups have survived, the mass of spines and skulls was becuase they are so chunky. There are three black pups, two bitches, one dog, three yellow pups, two bitches, one dog, and two chocolate bitches. I should be able to pick all up this afternoon between 2-3pm. Steph is here to cook me bacon butties.


----------



## Cay

It might not seem like it at moment but you're one of those lucky people who get a slip, think they've missed and get 8, then mostly bitches .


----------



## CockersIndie

Congratulations! At least the worry and wait is over now! Hope tau is ok after the anaesthetic.


----------



## cavmad

Congratulations so glad you didnt wait and see cant wait to see the mum and pups bless her she gave you all three colours so nobody can say they wanted a different colour


----------



## jayne5364

So glad that's over with. It sounds like you could have had major loss had you not followed your instincts. 
Happy, smelly and sleepless times ahead for you but they will all be so worth it. Big hugs to Tau and her new babies xx


----------



## Pointermum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just had a phone call from the vet, basically, Tau was never going to have that litter naturally, the pup that was blocking the way was right in the centre and she could not have passed it normally, he also said he wouldn't have known if I hadn't told him the pups are 3 days premature, they are that big, so all pups have survived, the mass of spines and skulls was becuase they are so chunky. There are three black pups, two bitches, one dog, three yellow pups, two bitches, one dog, and two chocolate bitches. I should be able to pick all up this afternoon between 2-3pm. Steph is here to cook me bacon butties.


Wow congratulations  Was it a bitch you was hoping to keep on?

I'm glad they are all safe, as you have always said breeding is not always easy and straight forward 

Hope mum and pups thrive, best of luck with them x


----------



## Galadriel17

Well done  you obviously made the right choice. And congratulations! Can't wait to see some pics. I'm sure she'll take to the pups and be a great mum  hope she makes a quicks recovery from the c-section too!


----------



## love our big babies

Oh Congratulations on the new piglets!!  8!! will keep you both busy for the weeks that follow.

Sorry to hear that Tau had to have a c-section, sounds like it was a tough choice but you made it and it was the right one  
Given what the Vet has said about the pup blocking the way, then I would say you done great going with your gut feeling that something wasn't right.


----------



## ElvieMogs

Congratulations but what a stressful time for you. Glad it all turned out well & hope Tau recovers quickly from her op awful to think what could have happened without it A suprising hooray for C sections!


----------



## terencesmum

Just to let everyone know, I have finally persuaded Jo to go to bed for a little while before Tau and pupsters arrive back home.
She is understandably knackered and (just as I suspected) had very little food as well. I have made her breakfast, tea, presented her with some chocolate and have walked the other 2. Oh, and I've given her a BIG hug.
Hopefully, Tau and pups will be home in a couple of hours. Let's hope everything goes well from here on in. God knows, Jo deserves it.


----------



## kodakkuki

terencesmum said:


> Just to let everyone know, I have finally persuaded Jo to go to bed for a little while before Tau and pupsters arrive back home.
> She is understandably knackered and (just as I suspected) had very little food as well. I have made her breakfast, tea, presented her with some chocolate and have walked the other 2. Oh, and I've given her a BIG hug.
> Hopefully, Tau and pups will be home in a couple of hours. Let's hope everything goes well from here on in. God knows, Jo deserves it.


Sounds like you have everything covered!
If only everyone could have a fairy godmother come whelp day *sigh*

However- we can all no pester You for piccies now instead I the new grandma!!


----------



## terencesmum

kodakkuki said:


> Sounds like you have everything covered!
> If only everyone could have a fairy godmother come whelp day *sigh*
> 
> However- we can all no pester You for piccies now instead I the new grandma!!


Haha, unfortunately, I haven't got my camera! (How could I forget!!! ) And I don't think Jo has even seen the pups yet. I will try to remind her later to take some pics, I promise. 

Although, I just found half a cup of tea and an uneaten chocolate bar. Naughty Jo! She needs the energy!


----------



## Firedog

I said 8 little fatties.Big congratulations to you.I'm sorry things haven't gone quite the way you would have liked but it is good that mum and pups are safe.What a selection,what a choice.Congratulations again.


----------



## jo5

Wow what a lovely choice of colour and lots of Bitches, well done Tau
Your only problem now is deciding which one(s) to keep


----------



## terencesmum

Another quick update:
We are just getting everything for the arrival of the pups at the moment. Last minute cleaning and getting stuff ready. Not long now.


----------



## gorgeous

terencesmum said:


> Another quick update:
> We are just getting everything for the arrival of the pups at the moment. Last minute cleaning and getting stuff ready. Not long now.


What a little treasure you are! Will you be receiving a wee pupster as reward?


----------



## terencesmum

gorgeous said:


> What a little treasure you are! Will you be receiving a wee pupster as reward?


:lol:
I wish!
Unfortunately, it is not the right time for Terence and myself to add another pupster. But I sure as hell will get a cuddle once the squiglets are older.


----------



## gorgeous

terencesmum said:


> :lol:
> I wish!
> Unfortunately, it is not the right time for Terence and myself to add another pupster. But I sure as hell will get a cuddle once the squiglets are older.


That will be an amazing experience in itself - pupster cuddles are priceless....enjoy...


----------



## Quinzell

terencesmum said:


> Another quick update:
> We are just getting everything for the arrival of the pups at the moment. Last minute cleaning and getting stuff ready. Not long now.


I don't suppose you could add "seahorse aunty" to your repertoire, could you? I could really do with a hand


----------



## terencesmum

LouiseH said:


> I don't suppose you could add "seahorse aunty" to your repertoire, could you? I could really do with a hand


Will they be as cute as Tau pups? 

Jo is on her way now to collect Tau and squiglets.


----------



## Quinzell

terencesmum said:


> Will they be as cute as Tau pups?


They are quite cute, but no, probably not.....and definitely not as cuddly 



terencesmum said:


> Jo is on her way now to collect Tau and squiglets.


So exciting!!!!


----------



## BlueBeagle

Have just caught up with this thread having been away for the weekend and many congratulations to Tau and her 8 (!!!) piglets :biggrin:

Hope they settle back into the house and all goes smoothly from now on!


----------



## Tula&Iver~cavs

Massive congratulations to you and Tau 

Glad Mum and pups are doing well enough to come home.

TM your a star for helping SL out and looking after her :thumbsup:


----------



## EmzieAngel

Congratulatiosn Tau and SleepingLion.
I bet they're gorgeous!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

We have eight pups in total, all huge, and it ws a black boy that was causing the problems! He's HUGE! We have two black bitches, one black dog, two yellow bitches, one yellow dog, and two chocolate bitches, a couple of photos attached.....





































She has put everything into these pups, she almost doesn't look like she's had a litter except for her boobs!!


----------



## EllesBelles

What absolute beauties :001_wub:

Congratulations!


----------



## Izzysmummy

They are gorgeous! :001_wub::001_wub:

They're all a really good size, Tau is obviously a fab mum and has fed those pupsters well! Fingers crossed all goes well over the next few days and Tau recovers from surgery Ok, looks like she's gonna have her paws full!

Trust a boy to be awkward!  I love the 2nd yellow from the left! It's got a belly full of milk, reminds me of when we first got Izzy, her belly would be massive straight after her dinner! :001_wub:


----------



## EmzieAngel

They are beautiful.
I'm now labrador puppy broody :001_wub:


----------



## jo5

Bless , glad to see she has accepted them and feeding them
I don't know where she put them all They are a lovely looking litter you must be sooo proud:001_wub:


----------



## gorgeous

OMG!!! They are lush...they look like a box of Thorntons Continental all lined up against their super Mum!!xx


----------



## Cockerpoo lover

Awwwwwwwwww:001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:

So gorgeous. Love them all lined up and different colours .


----------



## Pointermum

They are just soo perfect :001_wub: Enjoy


----------



## moonviolet

awwwwwwww:001_wub:
What a beautiful rainbow of lab-lets. They are so bonny. what a clever mummy.


----------



## terencesmum

They are so scrummy!!! :001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:
And noisy little buggers!!
And I had my first lesson in how to toilet puppies.


----------



## gorgeous

terencesmum said:


> They are so scrummy!!! :001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:
> And noisy little buggers!!
> And I had my first lesson in how to toilet puppies.


Any chance of a 'viewing' when Tau is recovered? please...................................................................................................................................................................................:yesnod:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Minimum of visitors till they're four weeks of age, to try and avoid infections, we'll see how we get on and how robust they are, you'd be welcome to pop and take a peek after that though.


----------



## gorgeous

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Minimum of visitors till they're four weeks of age, to try and avoid infections, we'll see how we get on and how robust they are, you'd be welcome to pop and take a peek after that though.


hee hee I did not mean in person - I am not that cheeky..I meant on the webcam lol!xx If I was to see them in the flesh I wouldn't be able to come home empty handed....


----------



## Quinzell

Speechless! Absolutely stunning!!! Tau looks fantastic too.

Well done all of you!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

gorgeous said:


> hee hee I did not mean in person - I am not that cheeky..I meant on the webcam lol!xx If I was to see them in the flesh I wouldn't be able to come home empty handed....


I think I'm gonna have to pat Steph down before she leaves, even though she knows she's not having one, she's very, very tempted! Will see how we get on later, Tau's groggy and still not quite used to the idea of motherhood, looks like I've got a night of bottom cleaning to look forward to!


----------



## gorgeous

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think I'm gonna have to pat Steph down before she leaves, even though she knows she's not having one, she's very, very tempted! Will see how we get on later, Tau's groggy and still not quite used to the idea of motherhood, looks like I've got a night of bottom cleaning to look forward to!


If I were you I don't think I could take my eyes off them? Better than TV thats for sure..... I bet Terence has one of them pupsters..if she is involved with them, cleaning bums and stuff she will for sure get attached...has she got a big baggy jumper on with an oversized bra,,,just perfect for a bit of lab smuggling...

Have they all got homes?


----------



## goodvic2

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think I'm gonna have to pat Steph down before she leaves, even though she knows she's not having one, she's very, very tempted! Will see how we get on later, Tau's groggy and still not quite used to the idea of motherhood, looks like I've got a night of bottom cleaning to look forward to!


Glad it's all gone well Jo. Probably the closest I've ever felt to wanting a puppy lol x


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

gorgeous said:


> If I were you I don't think I could take my eyes off them? Better than TV thats for sure..... I bet Terence has one of them pupsters..if she is involved with them, cleaning bums and stuff she will for sure get attached...has she got a big baggy jumper on with an oversized bra,,,just perfect for a bit of lab smuggling...
> 
> Have they all got homes?


Not yet, but I've got a couple of people to speak to and I don't think it'll be long before they are all spoken for. I've turned a few people away that were either completely unsuitable or I just didn't like, and one person has dropped out unfortunately.


----------



## Jenny Olley

They are beautiful Jo, glad they have safely arrived and Tau is doing well.


----------



## terencesmum

gorgeous said:


> If I were you I don't think I could take my eyes off them? Better than TV thats for sure..... I bet Terence has one of them pupsters..if she is involved with them, cleaning bums and stuff she will for sure get attached...has she got a big baggy jumper on with an oversized bra,,,just perfect for a bit of lab smuggling...
> 
> Have they all got homes?


 What do you take me for?? 
I would NEVER steal a squiglet.


----------



## LexiLou2

Trust me to have been away for the day, no phone signal no laptop I have never walked a mountain as fast in my life!!

Jo they are gorgeous (and HUGE to say they are 4 days early) and Tau did her mum proud you got your chocolate bitch....now which one to keep 

You've all been in my thoughts all day (that includes you steph!!) and I'm so pleased everyone is ok.

xx


----------



## swarthy

Glad they all arrived safely - they look lovely.

Do you have birth weights for the pups?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> Glad they all arrived safely - they look lovely.
> 
> Do you have birth weights for the pups?


Not birth weights, but just weighed them all, as follows:

Black boy - 520g
Black girl id - 505g
Black girl - 432g
Yellow boy - 500g
Yellow girl id - 490g
Yellow girl - 390g
Choc girl 1 - 520g
Choc girl 2 - 445g

Choc girl 1 has a small white medallion, I've id'd the others by trimming a tiny patch on their rump as I couldn't find my nail polish! The little yellow girl is the smallest, but they're all pretty robust pups.

Edited to add, I've asked for a copy of the x-ray to be sent, it was a bl**dy hard call as they are 2D, but as it turned out, definitely the right call as the way that boy was positioned Tau couldn't have given birth naturally, and he was just blocking the way.


----------



## dexter

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not birth weights, but just weighed them all, as follows:
> 
> Black boy - 520g
> Black girl id - 505g
> Black girl - 432g
> Yellow boy - 500g
> Yellow girl id - 490g
> Yellow girl - 390g
> Choc girl 1 - 520g
> Choc girl 2 - 445g
> 
> Choc girl 1 has a small white medallion, I've id'd the others by trimming a tiny patch on their rump as I couldn't find my nail polish! The little yellow girl is the smallest, but they're all pretty robust pups.
> 
> Edited to add, I've asked for a copy of the x-ray to be sent, it was a bl**dy hard call as they are 2D, but as it turned out, definitely the right call as the way that boy was positioned Tau couldn't have given birth naturally, and he was just blocking the way.


whats that in ounces for us oldies 

they look fatties


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not birth weights, but just weighed them all, as follows:
> 
> Black boy - 520g
> Black girl id - 505g
> Black girl - 432g
> Yellow boy - 500g
> Yellow girl id - 490g
> Yellow girl - 390g
> Choc girl 1 - 520g
> Choc girl 2 - 445g
> 
> Choc girl 1 has a small white medallion, I've id'd the others by trimming a tiny patch on their rump as I couldn't find my nail polish! The little yellow girl is the smallest, but they're all pretty robust pups.
> 
> Edited to add, I've asked for a copy of the x-ray to be sent, it was a bl**dy hard call as they are 2D, but as it turned out, definitely the right call as the way that boy was positioned Tau couldn't have given birth naturally, and he was just blocking the way.


They are good labrador puppy weights within the range you would expect - I appreciate they may seem huge - but they really aren't


----------



## LexiLou2

swarthy said:


> They are good labrador puppy weights within the range you would expect - I appreciate they may seem huge - but they really aren't


Are they big to say they were 4 days early? Knowing nothing about pups I imagine if she has gone until wednesday they would have been huge??

I expected them if I'm honest with them being early for them to be really really small.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

No idea re lbs and oz's, I just googled 520g and it's about 1lb from the looks of it, so considering 3 days pre term, and that Tau's an outcross, I am really pleased with the size of them, just wish that black boy hadn't held up procedures, but never mind, as long as it all ends well! The smallest three are currently having a top up inbetween feeds, and Tau is doing so well bless her, really offering them teats up for them to have a bit extra!


----------



## claire & the gang

Congratulations again...they are gorgeous & all look like strong pups.

Tau looks quite relaxed with them at least, I bet shes up to full mummy duties before long. Its just such a shock for them after a section...like where the H*** did those squeaky things come from


----------



## swarthy

LexiLou2 said:


> Are they big to say they were 4 days early? Knowing nothing about pups I imagine if she has gone until wednesday they would have been huge??
> 
> I expected them if I'm honest with them being early for them to be really really small.


Not really no - my last litter were over 3 days early and all the pups came in heavier - all roughly around 1lb 5oz - 590g.

These are within the normal range you would expect to see in an average sized Lab litter.


----------



## LexiLou2

Can I ask a stupid question, with a c-section is the incision wound in the same place as a spay wound? Just looking a the pics of the pups and you can't see a wound, but it may just be inbetween her teats?


----------



## Quiddelbach

Nice sized puppies Joanne, bigger than Flatcoat puppies certainly. 

Interestingly, the book of the bitch gives an average size of puppy for breed, flatcoats states 7-10 oz, mostly mine weighed 11, Zanna was the smallest at 7 and is flipping huge now ! Alice was biggest at 15 and is the same size as Zanna.

Must be hard to give an average on a breed as diverse as the Labrador in my opinion, but knowing tau's build I would say those are big puppies for her as she isn't much bigger than Brooke is she?


----------



## terencesmum

The scar is in the fold between her teats.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Yes, they're a good size for her I'd say, she was honestly like an elephant when she went in this morning, you can see from the photos it all went into the pups, and now the only extra is her boobs, pups have just had a feed and Tau is upside down in the box with them, she's not quite as averse to them as she initially was, getting used to them slowly.


----------



## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> The scar is in the fold between her teats.


Thought as much but wasn't sure.


----------



## jayne5364

Just beautiful. Well done everyone xx


----------



## Firedog

So precious,if i had one it would have to be a chocolate one.They are lovely.


----------



## CockersIndie

Wow- beautiful pups! well done tau and SL! keep us updated!!


----------



## Galadriel17

Gorgeous! :001_wub: :001_wub:


----------



## xhuskyloverx

Oh they are lovely :001_wub:

Congratulations!


----------



## LexiLou2

Just for the record, my legs have totally seized up and I blame Tau, I had to walk Whernside in super top speed to get home to see pups.....now my legs have packed in!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Pups are currently online for anyonewanting to watch, the ustream link earlier in the thread


----------



## jo5

Just about to post as I just found them online wriggling about on my FB page , they are far too cute:001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:


----------



## LexiLou2

They are stunning!! :001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:


----------



## EmzieAngel

They are gorgeous.
I just showed my mum the live stream, she was pretty mesmerised by them.


----------



## CockersIndie

oh my god they are so cute i could eat them! absolutely gorgeous, well done tau (i know i've said this already but watching them makes me all warm inside!)

ETA- btw HOW DID THEY FIT IN TINY TAU?! they are so chunky! super mum!


----------



## gorgeous

The yellow ones like the milk bar...lol


----------



## NicoleW

Where the hell have I been?!?! Grats SL and grats Tau.

Will you be keeping any pups?


----------



## NicoleW

just got the ustream from SpringerHusky

Oh... My... God... Beautiful!!! Is that the average size for labs?


----------



## SpringerHusky

It's not working for me?


----------



## Izzysmummy

They are gorgeous! Could watch them all night!m:001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:


----------



## LexiLou2

SpringerHusky said:


> It's not working for me?


I think shes just gone off line.


----------



## SpringerHusky

LexiLou2 said:


> I think shes just gone off line.


Damnit, I keep missing them


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Sorry, on the phone atm, maybe put them back up in a little while....

Little yellow girls still raspy, keep fingers crossed for her, she's got a bit of milk down the wrong way, I've managed to get a lot up but we'll see how she gets on.


----------



## LexiLou2

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry, on the phone atm, maybe put them back up in a little while....
> 
> Little yellow girls still raspy, keep fingers crossed for her, she's got a bit of milk down the wrong way, I've managed to get a lot up but we'll see how she gets on.


Opps silly yellow puppy, come on little yellow puppy, cough it all up!!


----------



## BlueBeagle

OMW they are adorable and I love the different colours 

Tau looks quite relaxed with them already so hopefully she will take to full mothering duties soon But you are both lucky to have such a gorgeous litter on the ground.

I will send positive thoughts to the little yellow pup and hope she coughs all the milk up soon!


----------



## gorgeous

Hi Sleeping Lion, Tau and babies,

Hope all is well with everyone. I do hope the little yellow girl is okay. xxx


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just back from the vets with the little yellow girl, she was still very raspy, brought up quite a lot of milk last night after a vigorous upside down massage, and was still rasping this morning, she's fine other than that, no cleft palate or anything, she's just managed to get a lot down the wrong hole it would seem! So she's had some AB's to ward off any possible secondary infections. Tau has just for the first time, got in the box on her own, and is showing interest in cleaning up after them, which would be brilliant as I've been doing that since they got home, less than 24 hours, and I can vouch how tiring it is! Can't imagine having to feed them as well. 

Just going to get Iddie B and Rhuna out for a bit of time with their mum, will try and set up the webcam this afternoon if I get chance. 

xx


----------



## RAINYBOW

Wow Congratulations guys 

Grrrrrr Puppy broody now :crazy:


----------



## LexiLou2

So pleased the little yellow girl is doing well, will keep my fingers crossed for her. Obviously the excitement of an open all hours milk bar got too much for her!!

Hope Auntie Indie and Auntie Rhuna enjoy their time with mum


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just going to get Iddie B and Rhuna out for a bit of time with their mum, will try and set up the webcam this afternoon if I get chance.


Have you got someone sitting with them when you are out?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> Have you got someone sitting with them when you are out?


No, not all of the time, I certainly wouldn't trust the next door neighbours I'm afraid. Indie and Rhuna are locked in a different room even when I'm in, I'm getting as much help as I can from people I know, but I have to be able to leave the room a few times, even if it's just to go for a shower, which I haven't had now for two days as the dogs have just come first. I've had to take one pup to the vets twice today, not an easy decision but I can't afford to leave a pup and *hope* it's ok, if I think it needs seeing by a vet. Tau has actually been really good, and she's finally starting to clean them, so hopefully my work will decrease a little in the short term, as I'll no longer need to keep cleaning their bums and getting them to wee. I am looking forward to my own bed again though, my back is killing me sleeping on the kitchen floor.


----------



## chaka

Missed all this as I've had no internet over the weekend. Good call on the c section, I am sure she will soon take over full mothering duties and let you get some rest. They look bonny pups.:001_smile:


----------



## Quinzell

Bless you, you must be so exhausted! They couldn't ask for a better mum!

I'm watching them on the webcam.....absolutely gorgeous!:001_wub::001_wub:


----------



## jenniferx

Ah bless. My family had a similar sort of situation- gosh 15 years ago- though the litter wasn't planned and the dog was a stray we took in. There were 10 in our litter, 7 survived. Emergency C-section in the middle of the night and then all had to be hand-reared as mum had no milk and was in terrible shape (obviously hadn't had the nutrition she needed throughout her pregnancy). Our vets offered to destroy half the litter at birth because they thought we'd find it too hard to cope- but we did! It was hard but it doesn't last for long and I still count those days amongst the best of my life! 

Best of luck with them all.


----------



## gorgeous

They are all looking gorgeous. Am loving all of them - in particular the wee blonde babies....:001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:


----------



## jo5

Tau is breathing rather fast , is that normal after they have whelped??? Pups are lovely and active, they are coming on a treat


----------



## Cleo38

Can't believe I missed the good news! What alot of excitement, am so glad everything went well.

They are absolutely gorgeous :001_wub:, you must be so proud of her


----------



## Quiddelbach

jo5 said:


> Tau is breathing rather fast , is that normal after they have whelped??? Pups are lovely and active, they are coming on a treat


Perfectly normal  still lots of womb contracting going on plus the heat for pups.


----------



## SharonM

jo5 said:


> Tau is breathing rather fast , is that normal after they have whelped??? Pups are lovely and active, they are coming on a treat


Yes, that's perfectly normal :001_smile:

I'm not saying this to worry you, but years ago we had a pup born with Cleft Palate, he was very rattly and congested, he was checked over by 3 different vets, none of them found anything wrong, it wasn't until he reached 6 weeks that WE found he had a very small hole far back in his throat, it was obviously too small to see as a new born pup.

He did survive and is still fit and healthy now, but his new owners did get the palate repaired at Langford.

Hope she picks up soon and it's nothing to worry about.


----------



## terencesmum

swarthy said:


> Have you got someone sitting with them when you are out?


I am on puppy duty on Wednesday and LexiLou2 and I will be taking the other 2 bears out on Saturday to give Jo a break.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just a quick update whilst waiting for replacement milk to cool down, the little girl is definitely getting some through her, but she struggles to stay latched on atm, am using a mixture of Tau milk and replacement milk to try and top her up. She's a fighter, vet is worried it may be a congenital defect we have no way of diagnosing in such a young pup. 

Tau's mothering instincts have kicked in, yes re panting, and considering she's been through two huge operations, c-section and spay, I can't begin to imagine how it is she's doing so well, she is an absolute star, in the vet's words 'quality bitch', he was very taken with her and told me his little boy would love a dog. He also waived the last fee last night for seeing the little yellow girl for the second time that day, right, off to top her up.


----------



## dexter

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just a quick update whilst waiting for replacement milk to cool down, the little girl is definitely getting some through her, but she struggles to stay latched on atm, am using a mixture of Tau milk and replacement milk to try and top her up. She's a fighter, vet is worried it may be a congenital defect we have no way of diagnosing in such a young pup.
> 
> Tau's mothering instincts have kicked in, yes re panting, and considering she's been through two huge operations, c-section and spay, I can't begin to imagine how it is she's doing so well, she is an absolute star, in the vet's words 'quality bitch', he was very taken with her and told me his little boy would love a dog. He also waived the last fee last night for seeing the little yellow girl for the second time that day, right, off to top her up.


can you not get one of the greedy ones to suppress the milk down from the back teats and then latch the weak puppy on to it ? hope she pulls through.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

dexter said:


> can you not get one of the greedy ones to suppress the milk down from the back teats and then latch the weak puppy on to it ? hope she pulls through.


She's just not staying on, if I'm honest, I'm not hopeful, she's not as strong as yesterday and the difference between her and the other pups is very obvious. She is so much smaller and much less robust, but I'll just keep trying.


----------



## noushka05

i am sorry to hear one of your puppies is struggling to latch on, i can really sympathise as one of my pups had trouble latching on at 1st aswell, i decided to top her up with a bottle, but the teat i was using, especially for rearing puppies, was far to fast and i was scared i would get milk in her lungs, my friend with lots of experience, told me to go straight down to the chemist and get a slow flow teat for babies as pups have a really strong suction..it was far safer, my other friend then advised me not to top up at all and keep trying to get puppy to latch on...anyway we couldnt and i was panicking she would starve, so my friend came over and persevered until Indi got the hang of it, i didnt need the bottle again. Hope you dont mind telling you of my experience Jo, i just dont want you to lose hope, I never thought Indi would get the hang of it either, and she did. Good luck xx


----------



## claire & the gang

Sleeping_Lion said:


> She's just not staying on, if I'm honest, I'm not hopeful, she's not as strong as yesterday and the difference between her and the other pups is very obvious. She is so much smaller and much less robust, but I'll just keep trying.


One of my pups was exactly the same early on & the vet had basically told me just to leave him & he probably wouldn`t survive. Considerably smaller in size & could see all his ribs after 2 days. I decided to hand feed him, then i knew i was giving him a fighting chance. He is now an 8 week old little terror who is going off to his new home at the weekend.

I hope your little one turns the corner too


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just a quick update whilst waiting for replacement milk to cool down, the little girl is definitely getting some through her, but she struggles to stay latched on atm, am using a mixture of Tau milk and replacement milk to try and top her up. She's a fighter, vet is worried it may be a congenital defect we have no way of diagnosing in such a young pup.
> 
> Tau's mothering instincts have kicked in, yes re panting, and considering she's been through two huge operations, c-section and spay, I can't begin to imagine how it is she's doing so well, she is an absolute star, in the vet's words 'quality bitch', he was very taken with her and told me his little boy would love a dog. He also waived the last fee last night for seeing the little yellow girl for the second time that day, right, off to top her up.


This makes sense how she has got milk into her lungs - this happens with bottle feeding - it's not something to be taken lightly and can contribute to the pups woes (and ultimately demise) 

My vet gave me tubing and a syringe which would be a much safer way of getting liquid into a pup this young.

After what has happened - I would be erring towards holding her on one of the teats once the others have finished feeding - or talking to the vet about tube feeding using a syringe.

The chances are,, if she isn't staying on the teat and feeding her is a struggle, it is quite likely you will lose her.

=================================

Jo - I am sure I read somewhere that you were feeding mum raw and then switching back to kibble? are you supplementing the kibble with anything?

Whilst I feed my bitches a large diet with kibble as the base (normal fare is 1kg of Kibble, a whole chicken, beef, fish and a litre of lactol a day for the first few days.

Just be careful that switching between raw and kibble doesn't go through to the pups, certain changes can instigate the runs in pups.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Right, yet another vet visit, having taking that little girl with the knowledge I may not come back with her, she's now under the heat lamp and I'm waiting for her stronger AB's to go down, before trying to get a bit of milk into her. We x-rayed her to try and see if there were any congenital defects that might prevent her from swallowing properly, no sign of oesophagus, but it's impossible to tell if there's a problem with the valve to her stomach; what she does have though, is severe pneumonia, so it's very much continue with what we're doing, try and get a bit of milk off Tau if possible to supplement the replacement milk with, drops onto her tongue and massage her throat to try and get it in the right place. The x-ray did show milk in her tummy, not much, but she's definitely getting some in there. So we've not given up on her yet, but it's still very much a slim chance that she will pull through from this.


----------



## EllesBelles

I'll be thinking of you all...I hope she pulls through. You probably don't need to be told, but just in case - you are doing a fantastic job. Look after yourself, and I hope the little one's antibiotics work soon and you can get some proper feeding done.

All the best.


----------



## Galadriel17

Fingers crossed she pulls through. x


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I've offered Tau her normal raw food, and she is just not having it, she needs to get pain killers and anti biotics down her, so I need to get any food into her I can, and at the moment, that's chappie, which isn't what I would choose, but needs must. 

I've discussed tubing the pup that's struggling with the vet, but they do not want to go down that route as they think she's possibly having a problem with milk coming back up and going into her lungs which is not what she needs with severe pneumonia. So it's little and often and just hope she's got the strength to pull through. It is pitiful to hear her breathing, and I took her knowing I may have to have her pts if the vet didn't think there was any chance of her pulling through, but we're doing all we can to give her the best chance. Tau certainly hasn't rejected her, so it's just a case of hoping against the odds she can make it.


----------



## LexiLou2

Come on little yellow pup.....just keep going!!!

Fingers and paws crossed here for her and thinking of you all!!


----------



## GoldenShadow

Poor yellow pup, hope she's doing OK.

Joining late but congratulations! Rainbow litter, wow!


----------



## moonviolet

Come on little yellow pup, keep on fighting.


----------



## jo5

Really hope little yellow pup makes it but sometimes there is nothing that can be done no matter how hard you try, so please don't be hard on yourself if things don't go well for her, knowing when to let go is also important, I really hope that doesn't come across as sounding hard as its not how its meant.
Sending lots of positive thoughts your way and remember to look after yourself, I feel exhausted (physically and emoyionally )just reading about it, take care x


----------



## CockersIndie

aw come on little one! sounds like you and tau are doing a brilliant job


----------



## RAINYBOW

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've offered Tau her normal raw food, and she is just not having it, she needs to get pain killers and anti biotics down her, so I need to get any food into her I can, and at the moment, that's chappie, which isn't what I would choose, but needs must.
> 
> I've discussed tubing the pup that's struggling with the vet, but they do not want to go down that route as they think she's possibly having a problem with milk coming back up and going into her lungs which is not what she needs with severe pneumonia. So it's little and often and just hope she's got the strength to pull through. It is pitiful to hear her breathing, and I took her knowing I may have to have her pts if the vet didn't think there was any chance of her pulling through, but we're doing all we can to give her the best chance. Tau certainly hasn't rejected her, so it's just a case of hoping against the odds she can make it.


Don't beat yourself up about the Chappie (oscar does just fine on it ). It might not be the best but it is bland enough not to upset her tummy (which you don't want) and will give her the strength she needs at the moment 

Best of Luck, having to stop myself from ringing you to go on the list


----------



## Pointermum

Come on little yellow one , pull through this


----------



## GoldenShadow

RAINYBOW said:


> Don't beat yourself up about the Chappie (oscar does just fine on it ). It might not be the best but it is bland enough not to upset her tummy (which you don't want) and will give her the strength she needs at the moment
> 
> Best of Luck, having to stop myself from ringing you to go on the list


Do it do it do it :thumbup:


----------



## RAINYBOW

GoldenShadow said:


> Do it do it do it :thumbup:


If i could just work out how to have a year off work i would 

Only way i could do that is get pregnant myself and that seems a tad extreme :crazy:


----------



## gorgeous

Sleeping Lion I think you are doing a wonderful job with your girl and her babies....I do so hope that the wee yellow girl pulls through...I have everything crossed!

Rainybow go for it love! If it was two years down the line I would be in the queue (for a yellow boy)...:001_rolleyes:


----------



## GoldenShadow

RAINYBOW said:


> If i could just work out how to have a year off work i would
> 
> Only way i could do that is get pregnant myself and that seems a tad extreme :crazy:


Worth a punt is it not Singing:

:lol:


----------



## RAINYBOW

gorgeous said:


> Sleeping Lion I think you are doing a wonderful job with your girl and her babies....I do so hope that the wee yellow girl pulls through...I have everything crossed!
> 
> Rainybow go for it love! If it was two years down the line I would be in the queue (for a yellow boy)...:001_rolleyes:


Still not the right time for me either sadly. Too many littlies at the moment, add a bouncy pup to that and i would be :crazy:

If Oscar was a Super laid back dog then i could probably manage but at the moment i just think he would lead a puppy astray


----------



## RAINYBOW

GoldenShadow said:


> Worth a punt is it not Singing:
> 
> :lol:


I will leave you to break it to Mr Rainy  I could add single parent to the list aswell :crazy:


----------



## gorgeous

RAINYBOW said:


> Still not the right time for me either sadly. Too many littlies at the moment, add a bouncy pup to that and i would be :crazy:
> 
> If Oscar was a Super laid back dog then i could probably manage but at the moment i just think he would lead a puppy astray


Know what you mean Rainy. Life in the Penny household is very busy at the moment - work is booming (good thing I know) and we are full to bursting with waifs and strays at the moment..... would like another dog in two to three years time however...:001_smile:


----------



## RAINYBOW

gorgeous said:


> Know what you mean Rainy. Life in the Penny household is very busy at the moment - work is booming (good thing I know) and we are full to bursting with waifs and strays at the moment..... would like another dog in two to three years time however...:001_smile:


Dontcha just hate it when your head has to rule your heart 

It's all about the timing though in our game isn't it.

Was considering adding a pup round about now as i had mostly older children but then i had an unexpected change around of kids (one mum gave up work) so i know have an under 1 and a 1 year old, plus a preschooler which will change to a 2 and half year old in September. Even though its only 3 days a week and i only have the 2 smallest 1 day together i just don't have enough pairs of hands on our morning walks to manage the children plus Oscar and a puppy.

I think if Mr Rainy wasnt so adamant he doesnt want another dog at the moment i would love to add an older rescue Goldie as i think it would be good for Oscar and i could manage an extra evening walk on the 3 days i work so would still just take 1 dog out when i am working and the other on the 2 school runs plus an evening jaunt. (Can you tell i have given this some thought )

Mr R is a bit of an old softie too and i reckon i could work the rescue angle to my avantage


----------



## gorgeous

RAINYBOW said:


> Dontcha just hate it when your head has to rule your heart
> 
> It's all about the timing though in our game isn't it.
> 
> Was considering adding a pup round about now as i had mostly older children but then i had an unexpected change around of kids (one mum gave up work) so i know have an under 1 and a 1 year old, plus a preschooler which will change to a 2 and half year old in September. Even though its only 3 days a week and i only have the 2 smallest 1 day together i just don't have enough pairs of hands on our morning walks to manage the children plus Oscar and a puppy.
> 
> I think if Mr Rainy wasnt so adamant he doesnt want another dog at the moment i would love to add an older rescue Goldie as i think it would be good for Oscar and i could manage an extra evening walk on the 3 days i work so would still just take 1 dog out when i am working and the other on the 2 school runs plus an evening jaunt. (Can you tell i have given this some thought )
> 
> Mr R is a bit of an old softie too and i reckon i could work the rescue angle to my avantage


It does sound as if your hands are full. Hubby is soooooo busy at work - literally travelling all over the place at the moment - sometimes he leaves on a Sunday night and not to return until Friday eveining. I am still doing my part time work plus my two girls plus got three extras at the mo...how do we do it? But in a couple of years time am going to re jig things and will reward myself with a wee pupster...

I am sorry SL for hijacking your thread!


----------



## RAINYBOW

gorgeous said:


> It does sound as if your hands are full. Hubby is soooooo busy at work - literally travelling all over the place at the moment - sometimes he leaves on a Sunday night and not to return until Friday eveining. I am still doing my part time work plus my two girls plus got three extras at the mo...how do we do it? But in a couple of years time am going to re jig things and will reward myself with a wee pupster...
> 
> I am sorry SL for hijacking your thread!


Must be tough not having hubby there  (you must miss him too) xx

Reckon you need to take a good look at that chalet and treat yourselves to some more family time by the sea  Work hard Play hard 

Sorry SL xx


----------



## gorgeous

RAINYBOW said:


> Must be tough not having hubby there  (you must miss him too) xx
> 
> Reckon you need to take a good look at that chalet and treat yourselves to some more family time by the sea  Work hard Play hard
> 
> Sorry SL xx


Do miss the old man lol miss him but like the money lol....we are definitely interested in looking for a holiday home - just got to recover from the expense of moving home last year then we will save our pennies and get our little place by the sea...never know might tie in nciely for when we get our new furry family member,,,,lol


----------



## jayne5364

How is she this afternoon? Hope she's feeding a little better xx


----------



## love our big babies

Just caught up with this. You've had so much to deal with! But your doing great!!

So sorry about little yellow girly  Really hope she pulls through! 
Fingers crossed for you all.

Don't worry too much about the chappie though, I'm sure Tau will be back to her Raw soon enough 


(P.S. Hope she isn't too gassy with the Chappie, Rocky has had that today and he's no exactly smelling of roses, we're easing him back onto food after not eating for a while and can't keep eggs down)


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

The little yellow girl is hanging in, just, she really is a fighter. She's very poorly with the pneumonia, so it's just how much good milk I can get in her, at the moment, I'm also keeping her temperature up with hot water bottles, so she's between a *hot box* and then I'm trying to get her latched on to mum to get her as much milk as possible as she is actually managing to stay on now, so Tau comes out of the box for half an hour, and then I latch a big pup on to get the milk down, and swap for the poorly pup (keeping the rest of the pups out of the way while she has a chance to feed). It's worked a couple of times, will be carrying on for as long as she can and just hope she's got the strength to pull through from the pneumonia.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Sadly we lost the little yellow girl last night around 11pm, she seemed to be keeping down some milk, but when I tried to shorten the gap between getting her to latch on, she was just choking herself. The rest of the pups are fat and happy and Tau is doing brilliantly, I'm just gutted, bawled my eyes out last night.


----------



## Galadriel17

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sadly we lost the little yellow girl last night around 11pm, she seemed to be keeping down some milk, but when I tried to shorten the gap between getting her to latch on, she was just choking herself. The rest of the pups are fat and happy and Tau is doing brilliantly, I'm just gutted, bawled my eyes out last night.


 Really sorry to hear that, *sending hugs*


----------



## jo5

I am so so sorry it really must be heartbreaking but as I said in an earlier post that sometimes there is nothing you can do,no matter how hard you try you know you did your best for her and more. 
Take care of yourself and the joy the other little ones will bring you in the coming weeks will ease the pain a little i'm sure, Jo xxx


----------



## moonviolet

I'm so sorry to hear that, sometimes however hard you try they just weren't meant for this world, but it doesn't make it any less heartbreaking.

Sounds like Tau is really taking to motherhood and the other little piglets are thriving.


----------



## goodvic2

Sorry to hear that Jo xx


----------



## Pointermum

I'm sorry for your loss  Nature is cruel sometimes


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sadly we lost the little yellow girl last night around 11pm, she seemed to be keeping down some milk, but when I tried to shorten the gap between getting her to latch on, she was just choking herself. The rest of the pups are fat and happy and Tau is doing brilliantly, I'm just gutted, bawled my eyes out last night.


Sadly, it's one of the many negatives of breeding, and despite our best efforts, sometimes, mother nature does know best.

Fun free little one xx


----------



## gorgeous

Sorry you lost your little yellow girl SL....nature can be cruel but it can also be kind...maybe there were other underlying issues and it was the best for her...understandably sad for you - very emotional! You did all you could and made sure she had a fighting chance and never suffered so respect to you!

Good that all the others are doing well...xxxx


----------



## LexiLou2

I'm so sorry about little yellow girl, but as others have said sometime mother nature knows best, although i know that doesn't help at the minute.

Thinking of you xxx


----------



## SiobhanG

So sorry to hear you lost the little girl. Take comfort in knowing that you did all you could to give her a chance and just focus your energy onto helping the others develop into chunky little pups. I'm sure lots of cuddles from mum and pups will help cheer you up!


----------



## Quinzell

I'm so sorry  You did everything you could for her and more.

Thinking of you....


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Thanks all for the comments, it's f**king hard and I feel like I've not spent any time with the other pups whilst trying to nurse this little girl through. Steph's over later while I take Tau to the vets, and I may get her to help take some photos of the rest of the pups, they're all fat and happy, and Tau's appetite is starting to come back a bit, so hopefully I can get her back on raw which I'd prefer. 

Rhuna and Indie got to say goodbye to the little one, she's buried in the garden, I'd forgotten I'd bought a plant a week or so ago to go in the borders, sort of fits really, Heavenly Blue, which is pretty much how I feel atm. For the first time since last Friday I've actually had breakfast at the right time, I think I had a bacon buttie yesterday inbetween everything else. Lots of sugary cups of tea today to get me through, I feel exhausted, emotionally and physically.


----------



## Cleo38

Am so sorry to hear the sad news of your little pup 

Am pleased to hear the other pups are doing well, am looking forward to more pics ... when you have time! 

Make sure you take care of yourself as well though


----------



## Set_Nights

I can't believe I missed all the action , didn't realise it was this time already. Last time I checked you had only just had her scanned and the pregnancy confirmed! What a gorgeous haul of beautiful, chunky pups .

I'm sorry to hear about your little yellow girl though , sometimes these things are just not meant to be... although that doesn't make it any easier. Take comfort in your other 7 big, healthy squiglets and focus on them . You and Tau have done so well!


----------



## Izzysmummy

Im so sorry your little yellow girl didnt make it! Run free little one!  I like the breeding section and find it really interesting but sometimes its very sad. At least you know you did all you could for her and gave her the best chance, unfortunately it just wasnt to be 

Glad all is going well with Tau and the other pupsters! Sending a big hug and make sure you take care of yourself as well!


----------



## Quiddelbach

Emotionally and physically exhausted sums it up x

I lost a precious little black bitch at 26 hours old in our last litter, very similar symptoms but she never had the strength to latch on, and was very hard work to get going at birth. Brooke refused her and I should have heeded her, I feel guilt for working so hard and prolonging her short life, but I would do it again because we have to try. 

I will always remember her, as you will your little yellow girl. Precious forever x 

Once they are up on their feet you will experience a whole new kind of exhausted, a joyful one  x


----------



## CockersIndie

so sorry to hear that SL, you've done her well working so hard. glad to hear all the others are thriving though, look forward to the pictures when you get a chance


----------



## swarthy

Quiddelbach said:


> Emotionally and physically exhausted sums it up x
> 
> I lost a precious little black bitch at 26 hours old in our last litter, very similar symptoms but she never had the strength to latch on, and was very hard work to get going at birth. Brooke refused her and I should have heeded her, I feel guilt for working so hard and prolonging her short life, but I would do it again because we have to try.
> 
> I will always remember her, as you will your little yellow girl. Precious forever x
> 
> Once they are up on their feet you will experience a whole new kind of exhausted, a joyful one  x


Yes - sadly it's all part and parcel of breeding - in our last litter one of our little boys was very poorly I stayed up with 24x7 for a number of weeks, slept with him in my arms in the chair in front of the whelping box between feeding and putting him on mum when the other pups were done - the very first time I was away from him as I went to a show with a friend - he died in my OH's arms 

To top it all, we brought KC back from the show which all the litter and one of my adult dogs got; thankfully a number of hundred pounds later, they all came through it unscathed - but another reason why I try to avoid vets like the plague when I have babies right up until just before they leave - there are just too many risks associated with vets surgeries when you have a litter


----------



## chaka

So sorry you lost the little one, you gave her every chance. Sometimes they just aren't meant to be, I battled on with a little one in a previous litter, she seemed to be doing well and then at 3 weeks went rapidly down hill and had to be pts, heartbreaking. I hope you can relax and enjoy Tau and the rest of the pups now.


----------



## jenniferx

Sorry you lost the little female.  

Of our litter we lost Rolley on day 2, Tippy on day 4. I still remember them fifteen years on. It is just the way of it with species that produce multiples in a litter/ brood. Not that that makes it any easier of course.


----------



## miti999

I've followed Tau's journey and I'm very sorry to hear about the loss of one of her pups. I echo other comments and I'm sure you did all you can. Sounds like the rest of the pups are thriving 

I wanted to ask, the complication of a puppy blocking the cervix - is this a common whelping problem? And would it always result in a c-section being necessary? 

Does Tau's c-section mean that you wouldn't breed from her again or 

as the complication was caused by a puppy and not Mum, does that mean that you would?


----------



## Firedog

Really sorry you lost the little pup,be very proud of yourself,that you did your utmost to help her,sadly it wasn't meant to be.
R.I.P little pup.


----------



## terencesmum

miti999 said:


> I've followed Tau's journey and I'm very sorry to hear about the loss of one of her pups. I echo other comments and I'm sure you did all you can. Sounds like the rest of the pups are thriving
> 
> I wanted to ask, the complication of a puppy blocking the cervix - is this a common whelping problem? And would it always result in a c-section being necessary?
> 
> Does Tau's c-section mean that you wouldn't breed from her again or
> 
> as the complication was caused by a puppy and not Mum, does that mean that you would?


This will be Tau's only litter. 
Tau and Jo have just gone off to the vet's for her c-section check-up, so I am holding the fort over here. The remaining pups are absolutely delicious. :001_wub: Really chunky little things.
Tau is being a brilliant mum. She has really taken to it. It's lovely to see. And she's back to her normal, gorgeous, waggy self.


----------



## gorgeous

terencesmum said:


> This will be Tau's only litter.
> Tau and Jo have just gone off to the vet's for her c-section check-up, so I am holding the fort over here. The remaining pups are absolutely delicious. :001_wub: Really chunky little things.
> Tau is being a brilliant mum. She has really taken to it. It's lovely to see. And she's back to her normal, gorgeous, waggy self.


Have you got a baggy jumper on?

Will we be getting a viewing later? (please)xxx


----------



## terencesmum

gorgeous said:


> Have you got a baggy jumper on?
> 
> Will we be getting a viewing later? (please)xxx


How very dare you??  :lol:

I don't know about a viewing. That's up to Jo. But I know we are taking pictures later of all the pups, so you will get close-ups very shortly, I would imagine.


----------



## gorgeous

terencesmum said:


> How very dare you??  :lol:
> 
> I don't know about a viewing. That's up to Jo. But I know we are taking pictures later of all the pups, so you will get close-ups very shortly, I would imagine.


I will look forward to seeing the pics soon then - thank you..


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Just to go back to the question re c-section and whether or not I would have bred, although it's decided in any case as Tau was spayed at the same time as her c-section, but if she'd been younger, and I wanted to keep another pup, because the cause of the c-section wasn't *necessarily* inertia, I may have considered it. Having said that, I would have taken on board a lot of advice before even contemplating it, having had that one experience of the emergency c-section, it is enough to make you turn grey over night. If Tau had had inertia, it would be doubtful if I would think about breeding from the bitch pup I am keeping back as well, again, because it was caused by the pup blocking the way, I will consider it along with all the other things I need to take into consideration, all in the future, health tests etc.

Anyway, I'll stop boring people with all that stuff, this is what you wanted. First up, I make no apologies for the cuteness of this photograph, having been in a slight gloom this morning after losing the little yellow girl, seeing Tau with her pups has helped lift my spirits a little, and this photograph in particular sums up what a fabulous Mum she is, this is the big yellow boy, and am I glad he's reserved because I'd be very tempted to keep him myself, I know he's only a few days old but he's scrumptious.




























This is the yellow girl, she's a chunky thing, and quite a wriggler.


















(Tau keeping an eye on me with her pups)

This is the chunkier of the two chocolate bitch pups, she's also got a small white medallion



















And this is the smaller chocolate bitch, I like her so far, but am hedging my bets, they've got a lot of developing to do over the next few weeks



















This is the problem boy who was holding up proceedings and have to thank for a large vets bill



















There's very little to choose between the two black bitch pups, both are lovely, one is slightly smaller than the others, both have bolo spots as well, just like Mum, smallest first





































They are all doing really well, fat and happy, and I'm pleased with their progress, and chuffed with Mum, she's doing so well with them. 

PS Steph's just gone so I've done a head count, and she's not stolen one that I can see


----------



## love our big babies

So very sorry about the little girly not making it  Really hoped she would have.
Good to see the remaining pupsters are thriving  

Hope Jo and Tau are coping well. She sounds the perfect mum. You have been through the mill quite a bit this week (Probably cost a fortune!! I know someone who has been in a similar situation to yours and it cost a lot of money, but you'd give everything to save a pup)

Looking forward to seeing some photos of the little tike's later


----------



## gorgeous

The pups are just gorgeous. Absolutey scrumptious. And I have to say I am pleased that the yellow man is reserved, too....else I might have been tempted and divorced at the same time....


----------



## EmzieAngel

Sorry to hear about the yellow pup 

Those pictures are lovely, such beautiful pups, I am in love with the yellow ones :001_wub:


----------



## Izzysmummy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There's very little to choose between the two black bitch pups, both are lovely, one is slightly smaller than the others, both have bolo spots as well, just like Mum


I had no idea what bolo spots were so just looked them up and that is exactly what Izzy has! I so wish we could take on another and get Izzy a little sister with matching bolo spots but the timings not right


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Pups and mum are now on ustream

Tarimoor on USTREAM: .


----------



## Firedog

I've just had a look online,they are so beautiful,it made me well up just watching them.


----------



## love our big babies

Just had a sneaky look  The photos are gorgeous!! 
Hope Tau knows just how famous she is!! You could make mugs and t-shirts :crazy::001_smile:

She is looking fantastic!!


----------



## tattoogirl73

So sorry for the loss of your little yellow girl. Run free little one :-( the others are gorgeous. Congratulations.


----------



## emmaviolet

i have only just come across this thread (i thought it was a how to guide!) and it has been amazing to read.

im so sorry you have lost a puppy, you have done so much for your girl and the puppies that you must know that you are not at fault at all.

the puppies are a testament to how hard you have worked and how much love you have put into them!

i absolutely love all of them but i do agree with you that chubby little boy has something! they are all so beautiful though!

well done and congrats on a lovely litter!


----------



## kat&molly

Lovely chunky pups, pleased Tau has taken to them ok and if I had a choice out of those it would be a Black one. 
Sorry about the little Yellow pup.


----------



## Amy-manycats

I hadn't had any email notifications and I come back and she's had them! Congratulations. I have a million pages to catch up on!


----------



## BlueBeagle

So sorry to read about the little yellow girl. You tried so hard to help her but it just wasn't meant to be 

The rest of the litter look fabulous though and doing well so many congratulations to you and Tau for doing such a great job so far. The photos are fantastic and I love the 1st one of Tau and the yellow boy, scenes like that must make it worth it!

I am gutted I am never awake for the live stream!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

BlueBeagle said:


> I am gutted I am never awake for the live stream!


I haven't live streamed much because Tau's labour was a non-starter with her getting the pup stuck, and also because it was too distressing for people watching that little yellow girl deteriorate, but I will hopefully do a bit more now the pups all seem to be thriving, fat and happy. What's a good time for you to press *broadcast*?


----------



## goodvic2

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I haven't live streamed much because Tau's labour was a non-starter with her getting the pup stuck, and also because it was too distressing for people watching that little yellow girl deteriorate, but I will hopefully do a bit more now the pups all seem to be thriving, fat and happy. What's a good time for you to press *broadcast*?


Now Jo! X


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

goodvic2 said:


> Now Jo! X


Funnily enough, just pressed *broadcast* while I have some brekkie


----------



## goodvic2

They r so cute. R the other dogs allowed to see the pups yet? If not when can they? X


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

goodvic2 said:


> They r so cute. R the other dogs allowed to see the pups yet? If not when can they? X


No, they're confined to the dog room downstairs for now I'm afraid, and I go and make a fuss of them down there. Tau is incredibly protective of the pups and would have a go at either of them, even her big sis, so she gets taken out of the front door and round the side down to the garden for a toilet break, the other girls get whizzed out the back door. Once Tau starts to lose interest in the pups and they are weaned the other two will get a look in. They did meet the little yellow girl before she was buried in the back garden, and they are smelling the vet bed with interest that keeps getting taken down to be washed, they know something's afoot!


----------



## goodvic2

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, they're confined to the dog room downstairs for now I'm afraid, and I go and make a fuss of them down there. Tau is incredibly protective of the pups and would have a go at either of them, even her big sis, so she gets taken out of the front door and round the side down to the garden for a toilet break, the other girls get whizzed out the back door. Once Tau starts to lose interest in the pups and they are weaned the other two will get a look in. They did meet the little yellow girl before she was buried in the back garden, and they are smelling the vet bed with interest that keeps getting taken down to be washed, they know something's afoot!


Is she ok with you handling the pups?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

goodvic2 said:


> Is she ok with you handling the pups?


Absolutely fine, she keeps a close eye on me if I lift one out of the box, and will clean it if I hold it for her, but quite often I'll lift the smaller pups onto the back teats which have more milk in, just to get a bit extra as the larger pups are really gutsy and push them out of the way.


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## chaka

Just as a slight aside, has anyone seen the KCs new Puppy socialisation plan, produced in conjunction with the Dogs Trust. Some good points in there but some I don't agree with and your post reminded me. They advocate lifting pups at 3 days, holding them on their backs, tickling their toes, holding them upside down etc. Now there is no way Evie, or probably any of my previous bitches would have been happy with this and I suspect it would have involved said pup being taken gently from me and placed back in bed, and quite possibly a stressed bitch. They also suggest letting other dogs to wander outside the puppy pen at 3 weeks old, again I think this is too young, unless you have a very laid back bitch. Would be interested in others thoughts on this.


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## Sleeping_Lion

I think it's too difficult to lay down hard and fast rules when it comes to something like raising a litter, there are too many variables and I won't be letting the other two anywhere near at 3 weeks I am guessing Tau would be stressed to hell and would want to have a go at them, even though they are best of mates normally.


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## chaka

Yes exactly, Evie adores my daughters Lancashire Heeler, he has been like her pup since we got him but we didn't let him near the pups until this last weekend, and even then it was when she was away from them. Have you seen the Puppy Plan, in principle its a good idea but as you say every bitch and litter is different, common sense is the most important factor imo, that and knowing your bitch.


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## Sleeping_Lion

I've not read it in full but I know what you're referring to, it's a bit like an idiot's guide sort of thing, but I don't agree with all of it, like you, I think some of it's a bit questionable!


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## chaka

You'll get a copy when you register Tau's pups, plus a copy to give to each new owner, which you have to complete saying you have done everything in the "Breeder or early care giver" plan. I have already explained to people that I will not have done everything, including taking the pups out individually in the car to see trains etc, 20 minutes each way round trip to do that, not enough hours in the day.


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## Sleeping_Lion

chaka said:


> You'll get a copy when you register Tau's pups, plus a copy to give to each new owner, which you have to complete saying you have done everything in the "Breeder or early care giver" plan. I have already explained to people that I will not have done everything, including taking the pups out individually in the car to see trains etc, 20 minutes each way round trip to do that, not enough hours in the day.


Well since I work out on track maybe I could stick them all in the van with me 

Good Lord, I will most certainly NOT be doing everything in the plan from the sounds of it, and will be doing a lot of crossing out and scribbling!!

x


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## chaka

Thats cheating, it has to be individually.


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## Sleeping_Lion

chaka said:


> Thats cheating, it has to be individually.


I could take them out of the van individually


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## swarthy

chaka said:


> They also suggest letting other dogs to wander outside the puppy pen at 3 weeks old, again I think this is too young, unless you have a very laid back bitch. Would be interested in others thoughts on this.


None of my bitches (so far) would have any issue with the other dogs being around by 3 weeks old - our general span is around 7 days - although with halls first litter, she went to find one of my girls at around 4 days and literally escorted her into see them - Clover then used to lay on the settee overlooking the whelping box - it was extroardinarily sweet. (Particularly considering I couldn't leave them alone until the young madam was 8 months old she used to torment hell out of my older girl)

By three weeks, I would be expecting the pups to have started weaning and mum to be going back and fore just for feeding, cleaning etc and spending more time with the older resident dogs - my eldest bitch was still feeding at 11/12 weeks, but had absolutely no qualms about the other dogs being around.


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## emmaviolet

oh my word, they are far too cute and chubby!

there was a really chunky yellow pup at the front when they were feeding, just adorable and moving around so much, i think he pushed another one off, they seem older then they are lovely and chunky!

oh i wish..........


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## Sleeping_Lion

Both yellow pups are pretty chunky, they are the largest in the litter now, they are all lovely and it melts your heart when they start snuffling around looking for a teat to latch on to


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## cavmad

The pups are all so beautiful and chunky. I love the little black girls but i love black dogs anyway and wanted a black lab at one time and ended up with Kallie who was black with maybe a bit of lab if you used your imagination


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## terencesmum

Well, I am volunteering my devil dog and my children for socialisation purposes. Yes, I am such a good friend. And there is no ulterior motive (such as puppy cuddles) involved at all. :biggrin5::biggrin5:


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## BlueBeagle

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I haven't live streamed much because Tau's labour was a non-starter with her getting the pup stuck, and also because it was too distressing for people watching that little yellow girl deteriorate, but I will hopefully do a bit more now the pups all seem to be thriving, fat and happy. What's a good time for you to press *broadcast*?


Any time from about 10am your time as that is my late afternoon (4pm) so I would have all evening to watch :biggrin:


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## Sleeping_Lion

BlueBeagle said:


> Any time from about 10am your time as that is my late afternoon (4pm) so I would have all evening to watch :biggrin:


Online now for you


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## BlueBeagle

Aww they are just adorable! Very mesmorising to watch 

Am very embarrassed by my youngest DD saying 'Ooh you should get a chocolate Lab as it would match your sofa!'

Not top of my dog choosing criteria but just shows how much I have gone on about my new chocolate and blue colour scheme


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## Set_Nights

Lol, mumsy seems to be running in her sleep !


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## Sleeping_Lion

A few pics, and we are currently livestreaming 





































Tarimoor on USTREAM: .


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## cashewnut

Absolutely Gorgeous, making me puppy broody lol


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## Quinzell

They really are simply beautiful! Hubby and I have chosen one of the chocolate's 

Watching the hungry pups on the stream


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## Sleeping_Lion

LouiseH said:


> They really are simply beautiful! Hubby and I have chosen one of the chocolate's
> 
> Watching the hungry pups on the stream


Which one do you like, hypothetically of course? Cos both them girlies are spoken for


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## Freddie and frank

oh my god...how gorgeous are they...

i want them all.
so funny how they push along the floor when their bellies are full...


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## Sleeping_Lion

I may be biased but I think they are just fabulous pups, I'm just starting to enjoy having them here, bit of a rocky start with the c-section and losing one girl, but they are doing well and I can't resist giving them cuddles on a regular basis


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## Izzysmummy

I loved how excited they all got when Tau got back in the box! Lots of wriggling to get best position at the milk bar!


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## Quinzell

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Which one do you like, hypothetically of course? Cos both them girlies are spoken for


There was one wiggling its bum at the camera...she was on top of the other chocolate 

They just all look so snuggly! They're all lovely and chunky looking :001_wub:


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## Sleeping_Lion

LouiseH said:


> There was one wiggling its bum at the camera...she was on top of the other chocolate
> 
> They just all look so snuggly! They're all lovely and chunky looking :001_wub:


The chunkier of the two is slightly paler, and has a white medallion, and she is also quite vocal!


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## foxyrockmeister

Found them! How could I have possibly missed this? That'll teach me for not venturing out of dog chat!

They are absolutely gorgeous, well done Tau and SL


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## Quinzell

She's right there now.....having a little (big) drinkie


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## gorgeous

They are all looking gorgeous! 

Am I putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5?

Louise H, are you choosing your lab pup?:biggrin5:


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## Sleeping_Lion

LouiseH said:


> She's right there now.....having a little (big) drinkie


That's definitely the chunkier of the two, I'm waiting to see how they turn out, but my preference so far is the other choc girl, wqho is off in the corner having a snooze, will lift her in to the front so you can see her, and get a choc pup overdose!


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## Amy-manycats

Finally caught up, Congratulations Tau your babies are lovely.

Sorry you lost the yellow girl but its lovely you have buried her in the garden.

Onwards and upwards for the rest of the litter, have you decided on if you are keeping the one or two?


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## Freddie and frank

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I may be biased but I think they are just fabulous pups, I'm just starting to enjoy having them here, bit of a rocky start with the c-section and losing one girl, but they are doing well and I can't resist giving them cuddles on a regular basis


sorry to hear about the little yellow girl.heartbreaking.

they are amazingly gorgeous pups.not surprised you cant resist giving cuddles.
i could watch them all night.

all the best..x


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## Sleeping_Lion

Well what an evening, it seems that some people on here have nothing better to do than conjecture whether Tau was in labour before I chose for her to have a c-section or not. Maybe they could have asked me and saved themselves the worry, because she certainly WAS in labour for 36 hours before I elected for her to have the emergency c-section that saved her life, and the life of her pups. Some people really need to get a life, and that's before I get to the comments about how I handled the situation with the bitch pup we lost.


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## LexiLou2

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well what an evening, it seems that some people on here have nothing better to do than conjecture whether Tau was in labour before I chose for her to have a c-section or not. Maybe they could have asked me and saved themselves the worry, because she certainly WAS in labour for 36 hours before I elected for her to have the emergency c-section that saved her life, and the life of her pups. Some people really need to get a life, and that's before I get to the comments about how I handled the situation with the bitch pup we lost.


You know my thoughts xxx


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## Amy-manycats

Not looked elsewhere, but whoever it was did not have the decisions to make. They were purely yours and I'm sure you made them with the best interests of both mum and the pups health in mind. 

Hindsight and not having the pressure of your own emotional involvement, coupled with the anonimity of the internet means the keyboard warriors will always have differing opinions. That does not mean you made any wrong decisions.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Amy-manycats said:


> Not looked elsewhere, but whoever it was did not have the decisions to make. They were purely yours and I'm sure you made them with the best interests of both mum and the pups health in mind.
> 
> Hindsight and not having the pressure of your own emotional involvement, coupled with the anonimity of the internet means the keyboard warriors will always have differing opinions. That does not mean you made any wrong decisions.


No-one's been brave enough to say it to me in person, however, I am aware that messages have been sent on various forums to drum up support to tell me how wrong I was to opt for the emergency c-section.

I'll make it clear for anyone reading, the emergency c-section was the last thing either me or my vet wanted, neither of us had a crystal ball to hand, and we made the best decision we could for Tau, which inclluded a lot of tears on my part. The vet then confirmed *our* decision when they went in and got the pups, one was definitely blocking the way, and if *we* hadn't opted for a spay then, it would have meant one sooner or later, possibly when Tau wasn't as fit and ready for it.


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## Amy-manycats

That just sounds cowardly on their part. Don't worry about justifying yourself. 

You must be knackered physically and emotionally, as well as keeping up wiht the bitching going on and this thread and the streaming, plus your other dogs.

Some of us are enjoying the thread and the journey with its ups, down, twists and turns. Please do carry on with it if you can. I'd love to hear how the litter go on.


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## tattoogirl73

Sounds like jealousy to me. Sod 'em. You know you did the right thing for tau and the pups. You don't have to explain or defend your actions to anyone. Loving watching the little cuties. I don't know how you're going to be able to pick just one to keep


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## Guest

Sleeping_Lion said:


> A few pics, and we are currently livestreaming
> 
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> Tarimoor on USTREAM: .


OMG how on earth have i missed these :001_wub::001_wub::001_wub: i love the choccy pups just beautiful , but they all are! well done to you and tau! xx



Sleeping_Lion said:


> No-one's been brave enough to say it to me in person, however, I am aware that messages have been sent on various forums to drum up support to tell me how wrong I was to opt for the emergency c-section.


dear god , dunno whats gone on , nor do i care for the opinions of people that have nothing better to do than to tittle tattle  your dog , your pups YOUR choice as far as i`m concerned 36 hours is a lot for a dog and i`m quite sure she were by that point exhausted. sorry about loosing a pup , thats hard


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## BlueBeagle

Although everyone can give an 'opinion' on what they think is best unless they are *actually* there living the drama with you and seeing all the changes and Tau's reaction it is unfair of them to judge a decision which was difficult enough for you to make as it is.

I had exactly the same with my own children as no2 child was a transverse, footling breech (although luckily they discovered it in time for me to have a planned c-section) which is impossible to deliver naturally... was I wrong to have the c-section?

At the end of the day it was your decision to make with advice from your vet and you made the right one in the end. Just enjoy the pups and thank you for turning the livestream on when I was online as they are adorable  I'd have one of the black one, ignoring my children's choice of yellow and chocolate :lol:


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## Pointermum

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well what an evening, it seems that some people on here have nothing better to do than conjecture whether Tau was in labour before I chose for her to have a c-section or not. Maybe they could have asked me and saved themselves the worry, because she certainly WAS in labour for 36 hours before I elected for her to have the emergency c-section that saved her life, and the life of her pups. Some people really need to get a life, and that's before I get to the comments about how I handled the situation with the bitch pup we lost.


At the end of the the day you are and was responsible for Tau's and the pup's welfare and from what i see they are doing well  It's sad that you lost the little yellow one but it happens


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## chaka

I think it is highly unlikely that a vet would do a c section on a bitch (particularly a generally easy whelping breed like a lab) if they weren't seriously concerned about the health of the bitch and or a puppy.
Unfortunately some dog people are just plain bitchy (scuse the pun) , I have learned over the years just to leave them to their petty gossip, I suggest you do the same.


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## shetlandlover

Not really sure what's gone on but you did what was best for your girl and the puppies. Its hard to pin point the exact time to say "yes lets c-section" but never the less it needs to be done if its to save both the bitch and pups. 

You know you have done the best for them, so screw what anyone else thinks.


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## Quinzell

Jo don't let negativity ruin the wonderful experience that you are going through at the moment. Its so easy for people to judge when they have no choice to make.

Following your thread gives me 100% faith in you, but its not about me or anyone else. Its about you and your beautiful babies.

Jealousy is a horrible thing. Feel sorry for those people that they live with such negative hearts.


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## rocco33

Goodness - didn't realise the pups had arrived - many congratulations - a rainbow litter! Did you dna test her for colour or was it a surprise?

Ps - have only read the last few pages of this thread, so don't know what's happened but just to echo Chaka - it can be like that in the dog world (well - in any are of life really but it's rife in the dog world). Take no notice - you have obviously done a great job from when you first considered a litter to now. Sadly these things happen, pups are lost and c-sections are sometimes required for a number of different reasons. Mourn the little one but most of all enjoy the wonderful pups you have. x


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## gorgeous

I cannot believe some people are having a pop at Sleeping Lion. 

I am not a breeder and I don't think I ever will be - not something I am cut out to do. 

But from where I am sitting SL has done a fab job. I work in Social services and from what I have seen on the web cam, them dogs are better looked after than a lot of people look after their kids. Tau is blooming - lovely shiny coat, white teeth and clear eyes. She also appears to have a wonderful temperament. Tau and them gorgeous pups are proof of SL's commitment and dedication.

for those that choose to have a pop I suggest you use that energy to help the real needy animals.


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## Set_Nights

I'll admit I did think you were being a bit trigger happy with taking her to the vet during labour and maybe stressing her more than necessary although I haven't discussed your litter other than on this thread and to send my mum and OH's mum a link to your live stream so they can coo over puppies . I understood though as if I was having a litter I would probably be bricking it and second guessing everything! Seems your instincts may have been picking up on something not being right though as after all you know your bitch better than anyone and you were the only one actually there to make a judgement call on the situation (other than your vet who supported and agreed with your decision!). I think you 100% made the right decision with the C-section and if it hadn't been for you then maybe we wouldn't have all these gorgeous pups here today and maybe even mum too ! I wouldn't be worried about the bitching. You have made yourself a very high profile figure for responsible breeding, on this forum at least, and some people were bound to find something to pick on for that reason alone out of bitterness. If it hadn't been this it would probably have been saying you are a terrible breeder because you used the wrong towels to wipe their bums or something stupid like that .

As for picking on the way you dealt with the little yellow pup, that is just cruel . These things do just happen and sometimes there really is nothing you can do to save them. I bet even the most experienced breeders have lost pups along the lines somewhere, despite their best efforts.

Anyway Tau and her squiglets seem really happy and healthy and that is what matters so I would just focus on that .


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## Sleeping_Lion

rocco33 said:


> Goodness - didn't realise the pups had arrived - many congratulations - a rainbow litter! Did you dna test her for colour or was it a surprise?
> 
> Ps - have only read the last few pages of this thread, so don't know what's happened but just to echo Chaka - it can be like that in the dog world (well - in any are of life really but it's rife in the dog world). Take no notice - you have obviously done a great job from when you first considered a litter to now. Sadly these things happen, pups are lost and c-sections are sometimes required for a number of different reasons. Mourn the little one but most of all enjoy the wonderful pups you have. x


I dna tested Tau so I knew she carried yellow and there was the possibility of a rainbow litter, obviously nothing is guaranteed but she did me proud, they are beautiful pups and all doing well now. I am very much enjoying these pups now, particularly that big yellow boy, he is such a monster of a pup, and is lovely and quiet when you pick him up, some of the others are real wrigglers. 



Set_Nights said:


> I'll admit I did think you were being a bit trigger happy with taking her to the vet during labour and maybe stressing her more than necessary although I haven't discussed your litter other than on this thread and to send my mum and OH's mum a link to your live stream so they can coo over puppies . I understood though as if I was having a litter I would probably be bricking it and second guessing everything! Seems your instincts may have been picking up on something not being right though as after all you know your bitch better than anyone and you were the only one actually there to make a judgement call on the situation (other than your vet who supported and agreed with your decision!). I think you 100% made the right decision with the C-section and if it hadn't been for you then maybe we wouldn't have all these gorgeous pups here today and maybe even mum too ! I wouldn't be worried about the bitching. You have made yourself a very high profile figure for responsible breeding, on this forum at least, and some people were bound to find something to pick on for that reason alone out of bitterness. If it hadn't been this it would probably have been saying you are a terrible breeder because you used the wrong towels to wipe their bums or something stupid like that .
> 
> As for picking on the way you dealt with the little yellow pup, that is just cruel . These things do just happen and sometimes there really is nothing you can do to save them. I bet even the most experienced breeders have lost pups along the lines somewhere, despite their best efforts.
> 
> Anyway Tau and her squiglets seem really happy and healthy and that is what matters so I would just focus on that .


The thing is, unless you actually saw Tau, you wouldn't have seen *how* she was, she just wasn't right once she'd lost the mucous plug, and then that bit of fluid on the Friday night, she kept showing signs and then it would all stop. By Sunday morning about 4am, she'd started digging finally, but then just came over and rested her head in my hands and settled down to sleep, at that point I just knew that something wasn't right about it, gut instinct. The whole time I was in touch with not just my vet, but a couple of vet friends, as well as several experienced breeders and had an experienced breeder with me a lot of the time, albeit not when I drove her to the vet for the c-section, but they too were of the opinion that something wasn't quite right and would have made the same call. I don't mind people questioning me and asking why I did things the way I did, but for people to go off forum and pm round spreading rumours is what really got my back up last night, and I'm not going to name names and am certainly not pointing any fingers, it's just disappointing to hear as they could easily have just asked me.

I certainly won't post about what towels I'm using, I've had enough criticism for a life time going through this whole thing, although I will mention chappie failed to do the trick with her meds this morning, so we resorted to roast beef, which I'm hoping meets expectations 

Will try and post more photos later, busy with work atm.


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## Set_Nights

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The thing is, unless you actually saw Tau, you wouldn't have seen *how* she was, she just wasn't right


That is what I was trying to say . It is very easy to pass judgement over the internet but unless people were actually there they are not in a position to be judging you for your decisions!


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## terencesmum

Well, you know what Nicki and I think. If Troublemaking is the only thing in said persons life, then that is really, really sad for them. Maybe they should get a life of their own.


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## BeagleOesx

Oh Wow :001_wub::001_wub:I have only just read through this thread (had thought before it was one of the 'how to' advice threads - doh) Well done Sleeping Lion & Tau on your gorgeous puppies, they are absolutely breathtaking. :001_wub::001_wub: 

So sorry about the little girly you lost but it was obviously nature's call. 

Hope they are all doing well and I will be checking on this thread for updated pics all the time now


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## Izzysmummy

Try not to let what others think get to you too much! If thats the type of people they are I think you're better off ignoring them and not letting them upset you, they're not worth it. 

You know Tau and as you said you knew something wasnt right and the professionals agreed. You did what was best for her and the pups and they are now thriving so it was obviously a good decision!


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## LexiLou2

terencesmum said:


> Well, you know what Nicki and I think. If Troublemaking is the only thing in said persons life, then that is really, really sad for them. Maybe they should get a life of their own.


What she said


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## jo5

Sorry to hear you appear to have had some 'bad press' but I am sure you are aware you really throw yourself open with breeding, everyone has an opinion
Anyway for what its worth it is obvious to me that you made the right decision with the facts you had before you, if you had waited and god forbid lost Tau plus pups then I am sure the same people would have something to sayabout that too. Damned if you do damned if you don't
The pups are gorgeous, Tau is being a fab Mum and Looking fantastic, thats what you need to focus on. Take care, Jo x


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## Sleeping_Lion

Thanks for the support and comments, I get a bit feisty when people criticise my dogs, particularly if they are completely off the mark! Currently livestreaming for anyone who wants to see puppies 

Tarimoor on USTREAM: .


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## Afinmore

I've not been involved in this at all, so have no idea what has been said to who and by whom, but there are a couple of things I feel need pointed out here.

1. Jo has repeatedly, in many places, asked for opinions on EVERYTHING. She has then mostly either argued against those opinions or ignored them. I know, as I have been on the receiving end of it elsewhere, as were many others. That's all well and fine, but when you consider that many of these people have been breeding for years (and decades in some cases!)and have bred plenty of litters, and are on the whole very well clued up on most aspects as they ARE actively showing or working or both, some of these people surely can't help being upset at having their freely offered, well meaning advice ignored.

2. Is it really necessary to put every little thing on every forum going? If one is going to disregard the advice of people much more experienced in these matters, surely its best just to keep one's own counsel and get on with tings in your own way as apparently no-one online knows anything anyway....?

This reminds me hugely of the person who recently asked me in private to comment on his 'doodle' puppies, which I grudgingly commented on ONLY as he insisted (I am very against them, surprise, surprise!), then complained bitterly to everyone in public about people who didn't have the balls to slate his breeding of the litter off in public but were quite happy to do so in private... 

I refuse to say any more on this, other than I feel you are being unjustly hard on people YOU asked for advice, way before any mating took place :-(


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## Sleeping_Lion

Afinmore said:


> I've not been involved in this at all, so have no idea what has been said to who and by whom, but there are a couple of things I feel need pointed out here.
> 
> 1. Jo has repeatedly, in many places, asked for opinions on EVERYTHING. She has then mostly either argued against those opinions or ignored them. I know, as I have been on the receiving end of it elsewhere, as were many others. That's all well and fine, but when you consider that many of these people have been breeding for years (and decades in some cases!)and have bred plenty of litters, and are on the whole very well clued up on most aspects as they ARE actively showing or working or both, some of these people surely can't help being upset at having their freely offered, well meaning advice ignored.
> 
> 2. Is it really necessary to put every little thing on every forum going? If one is going to disregard the advice of people much more experienced in these matters, surely its best just to keep one's own counsel and get on with tings in your own way as apparently no-one online knows anything anyway....?
> 
> This reminds me hugely of the person who recently asked me in private to comment on his 'doodle' puppies, which I grudgingly commented on ONLY as he insisted (I am very against them, surprise, surprise!), then complained bitterly to everyone in public about people who didn't have the balls to slate his breeding of the litter off in public but were quite happy to do so in private...


Wondered when you'd surface 

I'd respond point by point but suffice to say what a lot of rubbish, I have not ignored advice, I have taken on board advice cogitated and made the decisions I thought best, because they are my dogs. I'm sorry you don't like me posting at all, or asking, but you always have the option of not reading, you weren't there at 4am when something obviously wasn't right with Tau, you weren't there at the vets looking at the scan, or the x-ray. Nor were you there when the girl pup was writhing around after choking yet again after feeding, I don't care how many litters you've bred, and yes, you've bred a fair few more than me, the fact of the matter is you are not me, and you weren't anywhere near when things happened, but it appears that you like to make a judgement based on what you think you know.


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## BeagleOesx

Oh no........ why did you have to let me see the link to ustream Have just been watching them and :001_wub::001_wub: I have just melted. I thought they looked gorgeous in the pics but to see them squiggling around is just sooooo adorable, Tau is so good with them, licking them and nursing them she is such a lovely mummy. The little yellow one has just climbed all over the others to get closer to her mummy - so sweet.

I've had to drag myself away from it because I was just sat here 'oooooing & awwwwing' out loud :crazy: I could just sit & watch them all day - I don't know how you get any work done :lol:

Anyway, you've heard enough cooing from me but congratulations once again x


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## swarthy

I really don't see why Jo feels the need to publically villify others for being concerned, whether it be publically or privately.

The very fact that mum and the pups are well is all she needs to be assured of the fact she ultimately made the right decision.

BUT - there were concerns, and I am sure I and others would be lying if we said otherwise - from moving the bitch back and fore to the vets at regular intervals from the second she went into labour (which in most instances can add to problems).

I've seen the mention of a "crystal ball" - yet, there was a post by Jo herself on this thread that "in one and a half hours that will be it and a definite c-section" -this was BEFORE the vet had taken any x-rays or knew the position of the first pup to come out - if it hadn't been, the vet would have presumably done the c-section earlier as he would have drawn the same conclusion then as when he did do it. 

Pups do vie and jostle for position in the womb right up to the time that puppy is born - which is why pups get stuck at 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc whereby initially, everything looked as if it was going to plan. 

=======================

Unfortunately, when you chose to put everything into the public domain, there is always going to be people who disagree. But I can assure you that the ONLY comments I've heard or said myself have been SOLELY in concern for the bitch, the pups and even Jo herself.

If people wish to construe that as criticism or bitchiness, that is their prerogative.

===========================

I would LOVE to know where jealousy comes into it. Jo is far from the first breeder to do all the preparation beforehand before breeding, and she won't be the last.

She is doing exactly what millions of people have done both before and after her and will continue to do so across the globe.

===================================

It's clearly no longer "correct" to have an opinion on someone who choses not to keep their own counsel. If someone doesn't - they need to be prepared that not everyone will agree with the decisions they made, particularly so when advice has frequently been given and openly ignored.

I KNOW for a fact that I and others have offered Jo an immense amount of advice from long before this mating actually took place and afterwards - from pedigree suitability and opinions on the bitch's readiness (the latter of which incidentally turned out to be more accurate than the science as it is now very clear) - through to "my bitch couldn't possibly carry yellow (which she did) - from scanning to feeding the bitch through to trying to suggest things for the poorly pup.

Whatever my private opinions, I would NEVER wish harm on the bitch or her pups - IMO - a pup who goes downhill that quickly after birth won't survive - it doesn't stop any one of us from trying to beat nature though - occasionally it works, more often than not, it doesn't.

I did suggest "tube feeding" the pup which would have been steadier than bottle feeding (where flow is usually too fast for such a little one) - I was told "neither Jo or the vet wanted to go there" - suggesting that they didn't actually know what I was talking about rather than ask for an explanation.

I doubt it would have helped the poorly pup at that stage - but it MIGHT have been worth a try - particularly as it seems Jo had managed to get some of mums milk off to use. 

That's NOT a criticism, it's a fact that is there in black and white for anyone who wishes to read it  

=========================================

I seem to remember Afinmore STAUNCHLY and publically defending you not so long ago when some of your posts about a FB group bordered on liberllous - as I have done with helping on directing puppy buyers - giving you advice on your CD page, to improving your pedigrees on your website - it's all OK to help providing people don't have an opinion that differs from your own  

===================================

You have a seemingly well recovering bitch and 7 healthy puppies - enjoy them rather than villifying people who have only tried to help from LONG before Tau got into whelp.


----------



## Set_Nights

I think it is a shame when two well respected members are at loggerheads . Hopefully there has just been a misunderstanding.


----------



## toryb

Oh wow, congratulations!!! Im just taking a sneak peak and they are gorgeous!!! :001_wub:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> I really don't see why Jo feels the need to publically villify others for being concerned, whether it be publically or privately.
> 
> The very fact that mum and the pups are well is all she needs to be assured of the fact she ultimately made the right decision.
> 
> BUT - there were concerns, and I am sure I and others would be lying if we said otherwise - from moving the bitch back and fore to the vets at regular intervals from the second she went into labour (which in most instances can add to problems).
> 
> I've seen the mention of a "crystal ball" - yet, there was a post by Jo herself on this thread that "in one and a half hours that will be it and a definite c-section" -this was BEFORE the vet had taken any x-rays or knew the position of the first pup to come out - if it hadn't been, the vet would have presumably done the c-section earlier as he would have drawn the same conclusion then as when he did do it.
> 
> Pups do vie and jostle for position in the womb right up to the time that puppy is born - which is why pups get stuck at 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc whereby initially, everything looked as if it was going to plan.
> 
> =======================
> 
> Unfortunately, when you chose to put everything into the public domain, there is always going to be people who disagree. But I can assure you that the ONLY comments I've heard or said myself have been SOLELY in concern for the bitch, the pups and even Jo herself.
> 
> If people wish to construe that as criticism or bitchiness, that is their prerogative.
> 
> ===========================
> 
> I would LOVE to know where jealousy comes into it. Jo is far from the first breeder to do all the preparation beforehand before breeding, and she won't be the last.
> 
> She is doing exactly what millions of people have done both before and after her and will continue to do so across the globe.
> 
> ===================================
> 
> It's clearly no longer "correct" to have an opinion on someone who choses not to keep their own counsel. If someone doesn't - they need to be prepared that not everyone will agree with the decisions they made, particularly so when advice has frequently been given and openly ignored.
> 
> I KNOW for a fact that I and others have offered Jo an immense amount of advice from long before this mating actually took place and afterwards - from pedigree suitability and opinions on the bitch's readiness (the latter of which incidentally turned out to be more accurate than the science as it is now very clear) - through to "my bitch couldn't possibly carry yellow (which she did) - from scanning to feeding the bitch through to trying to suggest things for the poorly pup.
> 
> Whatever my private opinions, I would NEVER wish harm on the bitch or her pups - IMO - a pup who goes downhill that quickly after birth won't survive - it doesn't stop any one of us from trying to beat nature though - occasionally it works, more often than not, it doesn't.
> 
> I did suggest "tube feeding" the pup which would have been steadier than bottle feeding (where flow is usually too fast for such a little one) - I was told "neither Jo or the vet wanted to go there" - suggesting that they didn't actually know what I was talking about rather than ask for an explanation.
> 
> I doubt it would have helped the poorly pup at that stage - but it MIGHT have been worth a try - particularly as it seems Jo had managed to get some of mums milk off to use.
> 
> That's NOT a criticism, it's a fact that is there in black and white for anyone who wishes to read it
> 
> =========================================
> 
> I seem to remember Afinmore STAUNCHLY and publically defending you not so long ago when some of your posts about a FB group bordered on liberllous - as I have done with helping on directing puppy buyers - giving you advice on your CD page, to improving your pedigrees on your website - it's all OK to help providing people don't have an opinion that differs from your own
> 
> ===================================
> 
> You have a seemingly well recovering bitch and 7 healthy puppies - enjoy them rather than villifying people who have only tried to help from LONG before Tau got into whelp.


You've obviously spent a lot of time going through exactly what I've said previously, I wouldn't have bothered to be honest. At 7am (ish) (haven't checked the time of my post) I typed that if she didn't start having the pups in an hour and a half then yes, it would be a c-section, why? Because that's how I felt at that point after just getting off the phone with the vet, but I had a long conversation with the vet at the surgery, and paid extra for scans and x-ray to try and make the best decision for Tau. It was not a snap decision, it certainly wasn't decided before I left with her to see the vet, but I am glad I made that decision as it has been proven right. The vets opinion was that there was so little room for the pups to move round it would have been a miracle if that dog pup had managed to shuffle anywhere.

I was advised to use Whiskey's son by some, after all, chocolate pups are more saleable, not that that was given to me as a reason directly, and would also guarantee me a chocolate pup to keep back (hopefully a bitch), but wanted to use Whiskey as I like what he's producing. And so I had Tau tested to see if she carried yellow, and indeed she did. I'm sorry my memory isn't brilliant, and I'd mixed up in my mind that it was her litter sister that also carries yellow, and that she could indeed carry yellow herself, and it was your advice that I followed, as well as a few others to have her tested. But then I'm accused of not following advice.

I've taken lots of your advice and thanked you for it over the years, not just regarding Tau but with help finding pups for others, so I am saddened that you and others felt the need to pm people about Tau and whether she was actually in labour. It's been a bl**dy hard week, and it's a [email protected] end where you find out people you trust to talk to decide to go behind your back, you could have just asked me.

You weren't there when at the vets with the pup, so don't know that we discussed tubing the pup several times, the vets did not feel it would benefit her at all, again, I did the best I could with the advice in front of me from others and the vets. Tanya also advised me to tube feed, I didn't ignore her, I thanked her and let her know what the vets had said. I am gutted about losing that bitch pup, even though I think I knew she wasn't going to ever pull through deep down, and it's upsetting and downright nasty to have people still criticisng me over it who weren't there, and couldn't see what happened all that happened with her.

What advice has been openly ignored? Just because I don't agree with and do everything some people want me to do, does not mean I'm ignoring their advice, it means perhaps I don't agree with it, and possibly even don't agree with that person end of, but there you go.

I haven't publically villlified anyone, I've posted the facts, because I am fed up of hearing rumours and am disappointed to find out some of the people behind them. But there you go, such is life.


----------



## LexiLou2

At the end of the day judgement shouldnt be passed on whether or not a c-section was the way forward. I can imagine seeing your bitch tired uncomfortable and obviously unhappy is distressing enough without having to worry about if the whole of the breeding world is going to agree with any decision you make. At the time Jo was taking advice from her vet whom she trusts and friends who are experienced breeders. I am sure in an ideal world she would have loved the option to ring everyone she knows with any form of breeding experience get a wide variety of opinions and make a decision from there, but by this point both her and Tau had not slept in 36 hours, they were tired, stressed and as Jo knows her dogs better than anyone on here, to her clearly something wrong. Also why would a vet tell her that there was no way she was ever going to pass the pups naturally AFTER the section if that wasnt true?
At the end of the day Jo has put so much time effort and thought into this litter, far more than we see on a lot of breeding threads on this forum and the only reason she has shared every step of this emotional and at time traumatic journey is to try and educate people like me who have no idea about breeding and have found this whole experience fascinating. Jo gains nothing out of this thread or any other thread she posts on any other forum, and Im sure she would much rather be spending time with her girls and the pups than worrying about the negative and frankly pathetic comments of some others.
Regardless of what she had done it appears she was damned if she did, damned if she didnt as I imagine if she hadnt opted for the c-section and we were sat here discussing dead pups and possibly a dead bitch you would all be criticising her lack of pro-activeness and vet input!!!
And with regards to the little yellow pup, if she was choking on milk and getting it on her lungs from suckling from mum (which is how it happened), then to be honest I think mother nature had other intentions for that little pup from the start.


----------



## FoxyOsker

Jeez!!!! Some people are really up themselves - GIVE SL A BREAK!!!

I am sure we have all enjoyed the updates and photographs, and also cried too.

For what started and continued to be, up to today, an enjoyable post to catch up on once a day, has turned into a "cat fight" with some disgruntled breeder who seems to think they know best.........smacks of jealousy to me SL, as your pups are beautiful


----------



## terencesmum

LexiLou2 said:


> At the end of the day judgement shouldnt be passed on whether or not a c-section was the way forward. I can imagine seeing your bitch tired uncomfortable and obviously unhappy is distressing enough without having to worry about if the whole of the breeding world is going to agree with any decision you make. At the time Jo was taking advice from her vet whom she trusts and friends who are experienced breeders. I am sure in an ideal world she would have loved the option to ring everyone she knows with any form of breeding experience get a wide variety of opinions and make a decision from there, but by this point both her and Tau had not slept in 36 hours, they were tired, stressed and as Jo knows her dogs better than anyone on here, to her clearly something wrong. Also why would a vet tell her that there was no way she was ever going to pass the pups naturally AFTER the section if that wasnt true?
> At the end of the day Jo has put so much time effort and thought into this litter, far more than we see on a lot of breeding threads on this forum and the only reason she has shared every step of this emotional and at time traumatic journey is to try and educate people like me who have no idea about breeding and have found this whole experience fascinating. Jo gains nothing out of this thread or any other thread she posts on any other forum, and Im sure she would much rather be spending time with her girls and the pups than worrying about the negative and frankly pathetic comments of some others.
> Regardless of what she had done it appears she was damned if she did, damned if she didnt as I imagine if she hadnt opted for the c-section and we were sat here discussing dead pups and possibly a dead bitch you would all be criticising her lack of pro-activeness and vet input!!!
> And with regards to the little yellow pup, if she was choking on milk and getting it on her lungs from suckling from mum (which is how it happened), then to be honest I think mother nature had other intentions for that little pup from the start.


Couldn't agree more.
There is always the benefit of hindsight and all the WHAT IF's in the world. Jo made the right decision as far as I am concerned. She only had the best in mind for Tau and the pups and I can vouch personally that the decision for a C-section was not an easy one and Jo was bawling her eyes out after leaving Tau at the vet's.
And you can call me cynical, but there were only very few people who offered a shoulder to cry on after the C-section and especially after little yellow pup died. Criticising and keeping on about "if you had done this etc" is cruel, in my book.


----------



## DoodlesRule

Only recently looked at the post as I thought it was just about pros & cons, will never breed so hadn't looked. Lovely pups and sadness about the lost one. I think for anyone who was thinking of breeding its very useful as it covers the highs & lows and demonstrates that things can & do go wrong however well planned.

Shame its turned into bickering, most people make a decision because they feel its for the best. Does not serve much purpose criticising after the evet. Just use the attached


----------



## archiebaby

i dont come on here that often now but just wanted to say, at the end of the day,tau is YOUR dog,the puppies are YOUR puppies and when things are not going to plan ( as quite often happens despite trying to do everything right  ) YOU as the owner and breeder have to make the best decision for YOUR girl foremost as best and as quick as you can 
well done on a beautiful litter ( sorry about the little one but at least you have tau laying there with her puppies ) just enjoy them, i know from being on here how long you have waited for this!


----------



## goodvic2

My god what a couple of idiots on here!

She did her research, did it all properely. Even took the dog to the vets after feeling concerned about the dog. I doubt being a first time breeder is easy and you worry about every little thing. 

And she gets criticised. 

What a bloody liberty! Take no notice Jo


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

goodvic2 said:


> My god what a couple of idiots on here!
> 
> She did her research, did it all properely. Even took the dog to the vets after feeling concerned about the dog. I doubt being a first time breeder is easy and you worry about every little thing.
> 
> And she gets criticised.
> 
> What a bloody liberty! Take no notice Jo


I'm not, I'm just making sure that the facts are out there for people to see


----------



## Firedog

Personally SL,i think you should be proud of yourself for making the decisions that you made and don't take any notice of what anyone else says.Just 3 weeks ago i helped my own bitch deliver her pups,later in the day my father came other to see me and when i told him i helped her deliver her pups he turned round and told me i should have left her to do it herself.My answer to that is i had been told to stay with her and help if necessary and i know she wont do the cords.Now if i had left her to do it and the pups had all died he would have told me i should have stayed with her and helped her.Sometimes you can't do right for doing wrong.


----------



## kat&molly

What a shame this thread has descended in to a negative one. Its been a great insight for people like me who will never breed.

I think the last few pages should be deleted- I'd hate to think someone read it thinking it wasn't necessary to take their bitch to the vets for a C-Section.

FWIW I would have done the same thing. I'm delighted that Tau has come through it safely.


----------



## Guest

kat&molly said:


> What a shame this thread has descended in to a negative one. Its been a great insight for people like me who will never breed.
> 
> I think the last few pages should be deleted- I'd hate to think someone read it thinking it wasn't necessary to take their bitch to the vets for a C-Section.
> 
> FWIW I would have done the same thing. I'm delighted that Tau has come through it safely.


it hasn`t got to descend into a negative one i`ll just be skipping the negative posts taking no notice  those puppies and tau are scrummy i can`t stop looking at the pictures i keep having to come back and have a look


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I was advised to use Whiskey's son by some, after all, chocolate pups are more saleable, not that that was given to me as a reason directly, and would also guarantee me a chocolate pup to keep back (hopefully a bitch), but wanted to use Whiskey as I like what he's producing. And so I had Tau tested to see if she carried yellow, and indeed she did. I'm sorry my memory isn't brilliant, and I'd mixed up in my mind that it was her litter sister that also carries yellow, and that she could indeed carry yellow herself, and it was your advice that I followed, as well as a few others to have her tested. But then I'm accused of not following advice.
> 
> I've taken lots of your advice and thanked you for it over the years, not just regarding Tau but with help finding pups for others, so I am saddened that you and others felt the need to pm people about Tau and whether she was actually in labour. It's been a bl**dy hard week, and it's a [email protected] end where you find out people you trust to talk to decide to go behind your back, you could have just asked me.
> 
> You weren't there when at the vets with the pup, so don't know that we discussed tubing the pup several times, the vets did not feel it would benefit her at all, again, I did the best I could with the advice in front of me from others and the vets. Tanya also advised me to tube feed, I didn't ignore her, I thanked her and let her know what the vets had said. I am gutted about losing that bitch pup, even though I think I knew she wasn't going to ever pull through deep down, and it's upsetting and downright nasty to have people still criticisng me over it who weren't there, and couldn't see what happened all that happened with her.
> 
> What advice has been openly ignored? Just because I don't agree with and do everything some people want me to do, does not mean I'm ignoring their advice, it means perhaps I don't agree with it, and possibly even don't agree with that person end of, but there you go.
> 
> I haven't publically villlified anyone, I've posted the facts, because I am fed up of hearing rumours and am disappointed to find out some of the people behind them. But there you go, such is life.


Jo - you've made snidey remarks about whom exactly?

Show me EXACTLY where I've said anything about your dog or the pups, who I clearly said look happy and healthy and you should enjoy them.

I'm not sure where you get the idea of me PM'ing other "members" - I've spoken to ONE member on here - out of concern for you and the bitch when others were picking up that you were clearly stressed out and I know that stress does transfer to the bitch - been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

I haven't trawled through any of your posts - I don't have any need to.

IF you believe I've been slagging you off that is your prerogative - but any of my comments publically and privately have been solely out of CONCERN and yes, possibly a little surprised - if that makes me the devil incarnate then I can only apologise.

You know it's absolutely no secret that I prefer Indie to Tau and when explained to me, I totally understood and respected the reasons why you couldn't breed from her and have NEVER said any different.

The ONLY other comment I've ever made about you breeding Tau was around my surprise at her age - the same surprise if I remember rightly as her breeder on FB when you were planning to mate her (and no - I haven't trawled back to check that either).

All the way along, I have done my damndest to help you - I'm not sure where the hell you got the idea from that the suggestion to use Whiskey's son was anything to do with chocolates being easier to sell - it was felt that he might be a better match for your girl - only time will tell if Whiskey was the right dog or not - I have a Whiskey daughter myself and as a dog, I adore him - but I also adore his son and his half brother - they are my "type of Lab".

The physique of my girl's mother is very similar to Tau - my comments were based on my own experience - I went out of my way to help you with pedigrees and just about anything else you have ever asked me to do, whether it be for you or someone else.

If there was any reference to an all chocolate litter, it was for one reason only, because I 'think' you wanted to keep a chocolate bitch - and if you wanted something you could work and possibly show, you would have more of a choice if you had used a chocolate dog - if you are not bothered about what colour you keep, then that part of the conversation is irrelevant.

I've had just three litters - one all chocolate, 2 to black dogs who carried chocolate - and am seriously contemplating a black / yellow litter to my chocolate bitch.

I breed for ME when I breed - just as you have done - but possibly with a little more understanding of what I am looking for conformationally, that's not a criticism but an observation based on what I know and what I've done and what I've seen in several years around the showring - I know my dogs aren't perfect and that I have a long way to go (if ever) before I get exactly what I want.

==========================================

This isn't turning into a slanging match from my end - I say it as I see it - and you've known me long enough to know that - and no - we haven't always seen eye to eye.

I talked to one person on FB about my surprise at how things went with Tau - so I can only assume they relayed that conversation to you. The arguments presented to me were points I couldn't argue with and said as much - case closed - it's over and done with - Tau and your pups are here and are healthy - you don't need to go any further in justifying your decision to anyone (apart from maybe your bank balance which must have taken a hit  ). and NO - that isn't making it about money - but I know how much it cost me to treat a litter for KC - a litter on which I had already lost a significant amount of money.

Sometimes it's better to rise above things than to start threads on other forums and on FB which are snide and just provoke more anymosity where there is no need for it.

My SINGLE concern about you breeding from Tau was her age - I've said that publically and privately to you - because I know how much a first litter can take from a bitch - which is why I was concerned.

I guess I will never understand how surprise and concern can translate to bitching and being horrible behind someone's back - when I'd already said as much on the forums.

You've got a bitch who has fortunately come through it unscathed and 7 lovely puppies to look after - sometimes it's better to rise above it than to make snide comments on just about every public area of the internet you can find


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> Jo - you've made snidey remarks about whom exactly?
> 
> Show me EXACTLY where I've said anything about your dog or the pups, who I clearly said look happy and healthy and you should enjoy them.
> 
> I'm not sure where you get the idea of me PM'ing other "members" - I've spoken to ONE member on here - out of concern for you and the bitch when others were picking up that you were clearly stressed out and I know that stress does transfer to the bitch - been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
> 
> I haven't trawled through any of your posts - I don't have any need to.
> 
> IF you believe I've been slagging you off that is your prerogative - but any of my comments publically and privately have been solely out of CONCERN and yes, possibly a little surprised - if that makes me the devil incarnate then I can only apologise.
> 
> You know it's absolutely no secret that I prefer Indie to Tau and when explained to me, I totally understood and respected the reasons why you couldn't breed from her and have NEVER said any different.
> 
> The ONLY other comment I've ever made about you breeding Tau was around my surprise at her age - the same surprise if I remember rightly as her breeder on FB when you were planning to mate her (and no - I haven't trawled back to check that either).
> 
> All the way along, I have done my damndest to help you - I'm not sure where the hell you got the idea from that the suggestion to use Whiskey's son was anything to do with chocolates being easier to sell - it was felt that he might be a better match for your girl - only time will tell if Whiskey was the right dog or not - I have a Whiskey daughter myself and as a dog, I adore him - but I also adore his son and his half brother - they are my "type of Lab".
> 
> The physique of my girl's mother is very similar to Tau - my comments were based on my own experience - I went out of my way to help you with pedigrees and just about anything else you have ever asked me to do, whether it be for you or someone else.
> 
> If there was any reference to an all chocolate litter, it was for one reason only, because I 'think' you wanted to keep a chocolate bitch - and if you wanted something you could work and possibly show, you would have more of a choice if you had used a chocolate dog - if you are not bothered about what colour you keep, then that part of the conversation is irrelavent.
> 
> I've had just three litters - one all chocolate, 2 to black dogs who carried chocolate - and am seriously contemplating a black / yellow litter to my chocolate bitch.
> 
> I breed for ME when I breed - just as you have done - but possibly with a little more understanding of what I am looking for conformationally, that's not a criticism but an observation based on what I know and what I've done and what I've seen in several years around the showring - I know my dogs aren't perfect and that I have a long way to go (if ever) before I get exactly what I want.
> 
> ==========================================
> 
> This isn't turning into a slanging match from my end - I say it as I see it - and you've known me long enough to know that - and no - we haven't always seen eye to eye.
> 
> I talked to one person on FB about my surprise at how things went with Tau - so I can only assume they relayed that conversation to you. The arguments presented to me were points I couldn't argue with and said as much - case closed - it's over and done with - Tau and your pups are here and are healthy - you don't need to go any further in justifying your decision to anyone (apart from maybe your bank balance which must have taken a hit  ). and NO - that isn't making it about money - but I know how much it cost me to treat a litter for KC - a litter on which I had already lost a significant amount of money.
> 
> Sometimes it's better to rise above things than to start threads on other forums and on FB which are snide and just provoke more anymosity where there is no need for it.
> 
> My SINGLE concern about you breeding from Tau was her age - I've said that publically and privately to you - because I know how much a first litter can take from a bitch - which is why I was concerned.
> 
> I guess I will never understand how surprise and concern can translate to bitching and being horrible behind someone's back - when I'd already said as much on the forums.
> 
> You've got a bitch who has fortunately come through it unscathed and 7 lovely puppies to look after - sometimes it's better to rise above it than to make snide comments on just about every public area of the internet you can find


Sue, show me one place where I've blatantly ignored advice from people who are apparently above me, because that's why I'm being criticised. I'll have you know one of the people criticising me has had three consecutive c-sections out of one of their bitches, same bitch, and yet they are busy off polishing their halo, stuff that sort of attutude tbh.

I know you pm'd one person off here because I was chatting to them last night when they told me about the pm they'd received Ok, so it's your word against theirs, but considerng the amount of funny goings on, and I'm not sure why other than that I speak my mind, but I wouldn't say this person would say you'd pm'd them when that wasn't the case.

Surprise at her age? Really, you were one of three people that persuaded me she wasn't too old to have that one litter. I hate to say it, you prefer Indie, but you've never seen either of my bitches in the flesh, I think they'd surprise you because Tau is a much better bitch overall, Indie has a better temperament but Tau's conformation and ability far outstrip her big sis.

I know you say it as you see it, which is why I was surprised when I was told about the pm's but there you go. You're right, the bank balance means nothing to me, my girl means everything. Maybe you need to really be on the end of the bitchiness that's going on to see just how much is going on, and see those involved, because I can vouch, it is wholly unjustified, having learnt tonight that one person who has openly criticised me for breeding has taken 3 litters from a bitch, every single one needing a c-section.

I'm sorry Sue, you may feel that it's right to join ranks and be *concerned* but a pm would have been a better way to go about it.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sue, show me one place where I've blatantly ignored advice from people who are apparently above me, because that's why I'm being criticised. I'll have you know one of the people criticising me has had three consecutive c-sections out of one of their bitches, same bitch, and yet they are busy off polishing their halo, stuff that sort of attutude tbh.
> 
> I know you pm'd one person off here because I was chatting to them last night when they told me about the pm they'd received Ok, so it's your word against theirs, but considerng the amount of funny goings on, and I'm not sure why other than that I speak my mind, but I wouldn't say this person would say you'd pm'd them when that wasn't the case.
> 
> Surprise at her age? Really, you were one of three people that persuaded me she wasn't too old to have that one litter. I hate to say it, you prefer Indie, but you've never seen either of my bitches in the flesh, I think they'd surprise you because Tau is a much better bitch overall, Indie has a better temperament but Tau's conformation and ability far outstrip her big sis.
> 
> I know you say it as you see it, which is why I was surprised when I was told about the pm's but there you go. You're right, the bank balance means nothing to me, my girl means everything. Maybe you need to really be on the end of the bitchiness that's going on to see just how much is going on, and see those involved, because I can vouch, it is wholly unjustified, having learnt tonight that one person who has openly criticised me for breeding has taken 3 litters from a bitch, every single one needing a c-section.
> 
> I'm sorry Sue, you may feel that it's right to join ranks and be *concerned* but a pm would have been a better way to go about it.


Jo - I haven't "joined" ranks with anyone 

Read what I said in my post - did I say I hadn't spoken to anyone on here by PM? NO

Did I say I'd spoken to someone on FB who put forward an argument I couldn't disagree with? YES - it completely escaped my mind that the person in question was a PF member.

So exactly whose word against whose word am I disagreeing with? because I said in my last post both those things happened - maybe take some more time to read what I actually said?

As for c-sections, I haven't got a clue who you are talking about 



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Surprise at her age? Really, you were one of three people that persuaded me she wasn't too old to have that one litter. I hate to say it, you prefer Indie, but you've never seen either of my bitches in the flesh, I think they'd surprise you because Tau is a much better bitch overall, Indie has a better temperament but Tau's conformation and ability far outstrip her big sis.


You know damn well I was surprised at her age, which I didn't know until you posted one of her health certificates on here and said as much. I said she would probably be OK if she was superfit - but yes, when I initially saw her certificate and saw her DOB - I WAS intiially surprised at her age and said as much 

No - I haven't seen your bitches in the flesh - from photos I've seen, that's my opinion and again - without needing to track back - we had this conversation in the LF Chat rooms a number of years ago - you explained to me why you couldn't breed from her, and I respected that.

That is no different to you (or anyone else) making a choice on a stud dog without seeing the dogs in the flesh. I have seen all three dogs that were discussed on here in the flesh and know them all well not just appearance but temperament as well.


----------



## Malmum

Have been reading thie thread for a few days now and didn't know at first it was about a litter being born just thought it was for general info. Glad to see mum and pups looking fit and healthy and very sad about the lost little one. 

I did think judging by all the labours/births I have seen on here, plus my own girls birth of eight healthy pups that I wouldn't have involved a vet so early on and stressed mum out, perhaps causing more problems than solving and thought c sections were only done after repeated pushing with no pup. What the vet said doesn't mean much as they'll say anything particularly if they've made money from it. 

Birth is a very scary thing when you're watching your dog - I know as I cried through most of Kali's but this litter are doing great and in hindsight maybe many of us would perhaps do things differently! 

I think it's sad that forum members have to relay information sent in pm's and confidence though, appears it's done purely to spite!


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## dexter

i haven't read all this thread, tbo haven't got the time however what i would say is people ask for opionions help etc from experienced people and don't always take the advice given to them , so why bother to ask? This is a general comment and NOT aimed at SL. i also find it amazing that novices, people who have never bred a litter agree with veterninary decisions , well being of puppies etc and general whelping and upbringing decisions.

I stress this IS NOT aimed at the OP .


----------



## LexiLou2

dexter said:


> i haven't read all this thread, tbo haven't got the time however what i would say is people ask for opionions help etc from experienced people and don't always take the advice given to them , so why bother to ask? This is a general comment and NOT aimed at SL. i also find it amazing that novices, people who have never bred a litter agree with veterninary decisions , well being of puppies etc and general whelping and upbringing decisions.
> 
> I stress this IS NOT aimed at the OP .


The issue is when you ask more experienced people for advice you still get conflicting advice from different people so you are always going to upset people, I know I had a similar problem over the training of Bosley, I asked a couple of peoples advice, got conflicting advice, took the advice I felt more comfortable with and ended up with the person whose advice I didn't take having a real go at me about asking for help and not taking in been irresponsible etc. Damned if you do damned if you don't.


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## Quiddelbach

In my opinion any advice i give is given freely, the person I advise is under no obligation to heed it. 

They may well get better advice to mine, I am not so up myself as to be bitching if someone chooses a different path. 

Advice is just that, not rules! 

As a breeder myself I take on board many opinions and choose my own path, I would worry someone who is not confident enough to cherry pick advice in my opinion should not be breeding.


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## swarthy

Malmum said:


> I think it's sad that forum members have to relay information sent in pm's and confidence though, appears it's done purely to spite!


I can ASSURE you, I don't do anything out of spite - maybe surprise and frustration and concern yes, but most certainly not spite.

Starting threads on FB and several forums making snide remarks could be construed as vindictive and spiteful and not particularly funny for all the people now "baying" for juicy gossip and PM's flying around like no-one's business and making potentally libellous statements about bitches having numerous c-sections etc 

A similar thing happened recently after the OP seemingly fell out of love with a FB group because they didn't like her dogs.

Pretty much ANYTHING that I said privately, had already been said publically.

Give me one single reason why I would bear any spite to Jo or any other breeder - good or bad. I had a litter to this dog three years ago, the first UK kennel to use him outside their own - and have a daughter of his here who has done well for me in the showring, is great fun (if rather headstrong) and has a good working instinct,

I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to feel spite and have gone out of my way to help when I knew she was intent on trying to take a litter from Tau - from studying pedigrees and form to pointing puppy buyers in her direction to reading and reviewing her CD page when a prospective owner mis-read it - for that and being concerned, I get a virtual "smack in the mouth". 

=====================

Jac - you are right, people DO build up their knowledge from a range of breeders with differing levels of experience - I had three mentors on speed dial and MSN when I had my first litter, not to mention the OOH vet making regular calls to see if everything was OK.

I know how frightening it can be to see a bitch in the early and mid signs of labour and being concerned - even frightened when you don't know what to expect 

However - when that person starts posting to a level that makes even people who haven't had a litter start getting concerned - that's a warts and all scenario that isn't particuarly necessary, moreso when they have an experienced breeder on the end of the phone advising them.

I challenged the "definitive 1.5 hour" c-section and asked how the bitch was behaving - to find out if she was straining and nothing was happening.

No vet can actually say that a bitch can't give birth naturally until the bitch actually presents in that fashion - because pups do jostle around for position in the womb - which is why a birth can start naturally and then lead to problems 3 or 4 pups in - often these pups are removed manually by the vet with a shot of oxytocin and physical intervention. I took on board the comments you made to me, and had no counter argument and respect that.

However - all of that is irrelevant - as mum and the pups are here and safe and thriving - to my mind - that is far MORE important than any petty bickers and wasting time spreading rumour and speculation on potentially unfounded allegations - heresay and rumour spreads very quickly in the dog world.

With my first litter, I could barely drag myself away from laying in front of the whelping box marvelling at the power of mother nature and how the babies and mum interacted and how she instinctively knew what to do without any guidance.

To me, puppies in the first 3/4 weeks of life as they discover mum, each other, food, noise, start moving around and opening their eyes, experiencing new sensations is a miraculous time that is all consuming, leaving very little room for anything else.

In contrast, the second four weeks are spent cleaning up after the little darlings and a full on hand-drying back breaking time which still brings much joy - but also a huge amount of hard work.

Believe me Jo when I say, I know all too well what being on the receiving end of something bad in the dog world - again, been there, done that, got the t-shirt -

The difference is, when the sh*t hit the fan, I broke my heart, kept my counsel and rode it out whilst in the middle of a very real breast cancer scare and awaiting to find out why I had lost 2 stone in as many months and couldn't eat an iota of food without being desperately ill, whilst at the same time, my beloved father was dying, a long, drawn out painful and undignified death and my sister was also undergoing reconstructive surgery following her own brush with breast cancer, without the support of a few close friends, I truly wonder how I would ever have got through that period of my life.

So believe me, I know more than most what it's all about.

But anyone who thinks I've been spiteful or two faced, really doesn't know me at all.


----------



## Malmum

I wasn't meaning you Swarthy I meant whoever the person was who found it necessary to inform SL that you had pm'd and what it contained. I think that's just being hurtful to both parties. I expect it was a woman and have always found men to be much more discreet and less hurtful all round. 

Kali's births lasted 13 long ours but she wasn't distressed and when things slowed down my vet said just get her out in the garden to get things moving again - it did as Buddy was born out there very quickly. My vet didn't want to see her and if he did said he would call round.


----------



## gorgeous

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sue, show me one place where I've blatantly ignored advice from people who are apparently above me, because that's why I'm being criticised. I'll have you know one of the people criticising me has had three consecutive c-sections out of one of their bitches, same bitch, and yet they are busy off polishing their halo, stuff that sort of attutude tbh.
> 
> I know you pm'd one person off here because I was chatting to them last night when they told me about the pm they'd received Ok, so it's your word against theirs, but considerng the amount of funny goings on, and I'm not sure why other than that I speak my mind, but I wouldn't say this person would say you'd pm'd them when that wasn't the case.
> 
> Surprise at her age? Really, you were one of three people that persuaded me she wasn't too old to have that one litter. I hate to say it, you prefer Indie, but you've never seen either of my bitches in the flesh, I think they'd surprise you because Tau is a much better bitch overall, *Indie has a better temperament but Tau's conformation and ability far outstrip her big sis*.
> 
> I know you say it as you see it, which is why I was surprised when I was told about the pm's but there you go. You're right, the bank balance means nothing to me, my girl means everything. Maybe you need to really be on the end of the bitchiness that's going on to see just how much is going on, and see those involved, because I can vouch, it is wholly unjustified, having learnt tonight that one person who has openly criticised me for breeding has taken 3 litters from a bitch, every single one needing a c-section.
> 
> I'm sorry Sue, you may feel that it's right to join ranks and be *concerned* but a pm would have been a better way to go about it.


Sorry to be a bit thick SL...but I genuinely thought temperament would be a better reason to breed? As a buyer I would choose temperament over looks any day. (not a criticism btw but just my thoughts)


----------



## Darth

Oh come on!

Give the girl a break!

She's only done what we all would and that's what we feel is right at the time.

Just be pleased that it all turned out well apart from the little one lost to pneumonia. 

It could have been so much worse.


----------



## terencesmum

gorgeous said:


> Sorry to be a bit thick SL...but I genuinely thought temperament would be a better reason to breed? As a buyer I would choose temperament over looks any day. (not a criticism btw but just my thoughts)


Well, as someone who knows both Indie and Tau well, I can give you the perspective of a puppy buyer. (at least, how I would approach it)
Indie is what you would call something really special. Her temperament is second to none. She truly is lovely and a proper character. However, she has had some issues with her ligaments and there is some discussion about her elbow plates, so Jo decided not to breed from her. Also, she is much heavier set than Tau. Personally, I prefer Tau's build, but I suppose that is personal preference.
Tau on the other hand is a little more reserved at first (apart from with my husband who she decided was the bee's knees the first time she met him and draped herself all over him). She is still a lovely, steady girl. Very nice around my children, calm, clever, just not prepared to throw kisses around at everyone. She is quieter than Indie, and not such a floozie. (sorry, Indie)
Just because Jo said Indie's temperament is "better" does not mean Tau's temperament is bad. Far from it. Throw into the equation Tau's nicer physique (my opinion) and you've got a lovely bitch there. 
And I wouldn't "just" buy for temperament as a puppy buyer! I'd be pretty hacked off if someone sold me a pup from their "ever so lovely" bitch despite the fact she had dodgy hips or elbows! And I am sure you would be, too.


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## LexiLou2

gorgeous said:


> Sorry to be a bit thick SL...but I genuinely thought temperament would be a better reason to breed? As a buyer I would choose temperament over looks any day. (not a criticism btw but just my thoughts)


As Terencesmum said as someone who has met both Indie and Tau....Indie is the dog of a lifetime, in fact I passed comment earlier today that Indie doesn't actually pass as a dog she is a human disgusied in a fur coat, she is totally bombproof and is a compeltely rock steady dog. That said as already said there were potential issues with her elbows and other issues hence Jo chose not to breed.
Tau is a very gentle sole, she is a lovely dog with a fab temprement, she just is slightly more reserved than Indie and is very much her mums dog where as Indie belongs to whoever has food. Aslong as you have something nice for Indie to eat she loves you where are Tau sums you up before loving you.
When Jo said Indie has the better temprement.....you will be hard pushed to find a dog WITH a better temprement however Tau has a fab temprement....she just has a lot to live up to having Indie as a big sister.

And Tau gives the best kisses, she is so gentle and actually puts thought into her kisses :001_wub:


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## jo5

I think part of the reason some are taking issue with some decisions made by Jo is the fact that this thread comes accross as 'The way to breed a litter properly' I am not sure whether that was Jo's original intention or not but thats how it sort of comes across. Not that there is anything wrong with that, however imagine it was a newbie posting the same facts i.e
" I have a lovely bitch that I want to take a litter from , she is Health tested, Hip/elbow scored etc any advice would be appreciated"
The first response would be what breed how old?
"She is a Lab and 5 yrs old"
Response would be , enjoy her as a pet she is too old for a first litter
"I really want a pup from her though because (reasons given)"
next response would be
" Labs are a highly numerical breed surely you can find what you are looking for without breeding from your Bitch, is she shown, or is she worked?"
I am not completely sure about the above answer but I don't think she is??
Newbie answers
"Thankyou for your input but I know my Bitch as she is My Dog , I take on board your reservations but I am going to go ahead"

There have been so many similar threads started by newbies with similar questions and responses. They certainly wouldn't have been encouraged to go ahead. So it may come across to some as double standards

I am in no way getting at Jo here as I personally have had questions fired at me about wanting to breed and having to defend my decisions and its not pleasant, however as I said this thread comes across like "The way to breed a litter properly" yet there are some issues which weren't perfect and as I said if a newbie came on asking with the same set of circumstances I am sure we would all be trying to get them to change their minds.

I want to add that I am not judging Jo's decisions just explaining why 'some' maybe judging or making comments now?


----------



## gorgeous

terencesmum said:


> Well, as someone who knows both Indie and Tau well, I can give you the perspective of a puppy buyer. (at least, how I would approach it)
> Indie is what you would call something really special. Her temperament is second to none. She truly is lovely and a proper character. However, she has had some issues with her ligaments and there is some discussion about her elbow plates, so Jo decided not to breed from her. Also, she is much heavier set than Tau. Personally, I prefer Tau's build, but I suppose that is personal preference.
> Tau on the other hand is a little more reserved at first (apart from with my husband who she decided was the bee's knees the first time she met him and draped herself all over him). She is still a lovely, steady girl. Very nice around my children, calm, clever, just not prepared to throw kisses around at everyone. She is quieter than Indie, and not such a floozie. (sorry, Indie)
> Just because Jo said Indie's temperament is "better" does not mean Tau's temperament is bad. Far from it. Throw into the equation Tau's nicer physique (my opinion) and you've got a lovely bitch there.
> And I wouldn't "just" buy for temperament as a puppy buyer! I'd be pretty hacked off if someone sold me a pup from their "ever so lovely" bitch despite the fact she had dodgy hips or elbows! And I am sure you would be, too.


Thank you for your reply. As I said I wasn't criticising - just my opinion.
Temperament will always be top of my list - and there are enough good breeders out there to choose a dog that is bred for temperament from health tested parents. 
That is all I have to say on the matter and am not being negative, infact I have been positive re SL's pups.


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## LexiLou2

gorgeous said:


> Thank you for your reply. As I said I wasn't criticising - just my opinion.
> Temperament will always be top of my list - and there are enough good breeders out there to choose a dog that is bred for temperament from health tested parents.
> That is all I have to say on the matter and am not being negative, infact I have been positive re SL's pups.


The other thing to take into consideration is how well Jo knows her dogs, she knows Tau can be slightly more reserved than Indie, and can I say even as the more reserved of the two she is a fantastic dog, I have met her on a handful of occasions yet, she is perfectly content to allow me to be around her pups, handle them if neccesary and even decided to share her dinner with me by giving me a very liver heavy kiss.
Anyway back to my point Jo knows Tau is a more reserved bitch and spent a long time looking for a dog that completemented Tau, so the dog is confident and outgoing. She Jo has bred for temprement and looks which to me is a good thing, as there is no point having a labrador that has a great temprement if it doesn't look like a lab and isn't fit for function.
Again this isn't a critisim at all of your post I just want to explain fully to anyone reading.
I know you have been complementary of SL's pups (and they are SO cute!!!!!!)


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## Sleeping_Lion

I'm only going to post quickly as I've got pups to look after and work to do, can I make one thing clear, I did not fall out of love with an FB group, I chose to leave and had anything I posted deleted on request, because instead of opinions, I felt people made personal attacks on me and my dogs. I do not mind constructive criticism, I do not think my dogs are 100% perfect, but when people choose to criticise in a nasty way, I do not want to hang about and make friends with them and I certainly do not respect them. I choose to respect people who I feel have good knowledge and admire them for various reasons, not always because I agree with them, I very much don't in some cases. I took the advice to test Tau for gPRA so it appears on the pups paperwork after initially trying to contact the owner of her sire to see if I could persuade them to register the result with the KC, I took the advice to test her to confirm if she carried yellow or not, and I took advice about the direction in which to go for this litter, choosing a dog that compliments her for several reasons and looking at the direction I want to go longer term. 

I took on board the advice re Tau and electing for the c-section, but after weighing it up I chose to elect for the c-section and that has been confirmed 100% right. I wiped the mucous plug off Tau's leg, and saw the first bit of fluid discharge, so I know very well she had started labour on the Friday night. 

I took on board the advice for the pup we lost, but again, after weighing it up agreed with the vets, having watched her choke several times, and resuscitating her, I too felt that there was something not quite right with her keeping her milk down, and if she was going to make it through it was going to be trying to get small amounts of milk down, enough to keep her going and hope that the problem resolved itself. Sadly it didn't and it was heart breaking. 

What Steph and Nicki have put about my two Labrador girls is 100% right, as much as I love Indie to pieces, there were too many issues to consider breeding from her, clone her, yes, and I do have a waiting list for that one! 

This thread was not meant to be a *how to do it* but a *how hard it is* and the decisions you make as you go along, and to try and show that it isn't as straight forward as sticking two dogs together and coming up with a healthy litter of puppies that you can sell for a profit. It's certainly done that!! I've even had criticism for sharing the experience which was meant to be the aim of the thread, but then you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time.


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## BeagleOesx

Awwwww, just had a quick peek at webcam (just caught it in time before it went offline) and one of the dark coloured ones was crawling from side to side in the bed - it looked soooo cute. 

I'm in love with them and it cheered me up on this horrible wet/windy day.


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## jo5

*This thread was not meant to be a *how to do it* but a *how hard it is* and the decisions you make as you go along, and to try and show that it isn't as straight forward as sticking two dogs together and coming up with a healthy litter of puppies that you can sell for a profit. It's certainly done that!! I've even had criticism for sharing the experience which was meant to be the aim of the thread, but then you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time.*

As I said in my earlier post, Its how it comes across maybe not what you intended but it does none the less, there are several comments littered about the thread about 'moronic' so called breeders etc should read this to see how it should be done etc etc.Not made by you but by others reading the thread and obviously reading it as 'how to do it properly'. As I said I have no issue with you breeding Tau, the pups are adorable and hopefully you will get out of this experience the pup that you wanted.
However on the face of it the facts were, she was over 5yrs having her first litter and she is not proven in Show or Field. So basically you bred your pet bitch because you liked her conformation and ability and she is a good bitch, regardless of all the Health tests that were carried out if anyone else had come onto a forum such as this with that criteria they would have been told in no uncertain terms it wasn't a good idea. That was my point and maybe why some have issues with some decisions made???
I would be a hypocrite to have a Bee in my bonnet about Pet breeders as I personally don't believe you have to Show to be a good breeder but thats a whole other thread 
Unfortunately when you put yourself out there warts and all backlash invariably crops up somewhere along the line 
Again I am at pains to state that I am not judging you Jo in fact I was estatic for you when she was found in pup because you deserved it, there is no denying the hard work both physically and emotionally you put into having this litter and I am delighted that you have 7 healthy pups and a choice of which Bitch to keep.


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## dobermummy

they are the most beautiful, chunky, squidgable puppies :001_wub:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

jo5 said:


> As I said in my earlier post, Its how it comes across maybe not what you intended but it does none the less, there are several comments littered about the thread about 'moronic' so called breeders etc should read this to see how it should be done etc etc.Not made by you but by others reading the thread and obviously reading it as 'how to do it properly'. As I said I have no issue with you breeding Tau, the pups are adorable and hopefully you will get out of this experience the pup that you wanted.
> However on the face of it the facts were, she was over 5yrs having her first litter and she is not proven in Show or Field. So basically you bred your pet bitch because you liked her conformation and ability and she is a good bitch, regardless of all the Health tests that were carried out if anyone else had come onto a forum such as this with that criteria they would have been told in no uncertain terms it wasn't a good idea. That was my point and maybe why some have issues with some decisions made???
> I would be a hypocrite to have a Bee in my bonnet about Pet breeders as I personally don't believe you have to Show to be a good breeder but thats a whole other thread
> Unfortunately when you put yourself out there warts and all backlash invariably crops up somewhere along the line
> Again I am at pains to state that I am not judging you Jo in fact I was estatic for you when she was found in pup because you deserved it, there is no denying the hard work both physically and emotionally you put into having this litter and I am delighted that you have 7 healthy pups and a choice of which Bitch to keep.


The thread was prompted after a member had posted a thread about their Labrador bitch, which they'd had heath tested, used a good stud dog with her, and then it was found that they had no health tests in place and found that the stud dog they planned to use had said nah, don't bother.

I've nothing to hide with my dogs, which is why it astounds me, that people who know me are surprised by any details, I've never chosen to keep any thing secret. The only thing that doesn't surprise me, is the backlash from a small quarter of show folk, who are so up themselves it can't be measured. Well,.we'll see, they aren't appreciated by all those who show Labradors fortunately!


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## xbaileyboox

hi there. have just sat and read the whole lot! lol.

firstly congrats on yoyr beautiful babies! and well done mummy!
i think you made completely right choice witg csection and i woupd dothe same with bailey if i had to make the choice! will would you put thwm.through all the stress/pain knowing they cant do it physically? you wouldnt want it to happeno ypuself so why ur baby? 

the choco ones remind me of bailey <3

well done nanna!


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## Sleeping_Lion

jo5 said:


> I think part of the reason some are taking issue with some decisions made by Jo is the fact that this thread comes accross as 'The way to breed a litter properly' I am not sure whether that was Jo's original intention or not but thats how it sort of comes across. Not that there is anything wrong with that, however imagine it was a newbie posting the same facts i.e
> " I have a lovely bitch that I want to take a litter from , she is Health tested, Hip/elbow scored etc any advice would be appreciated"
> The first response would be what breed how old?
> "She is a Lab and 5 yrs old"
> Response would be , enjoy her as a pet she is too old for a first litter
> "I really want a pup from her though because (reasons given)"
> next response would be
> " Labs are a highly numerical breed surely you can find what you are looking for without breeding from your Bitch, is she shown, or is she worked?"
> I am not completely sure about the above answer but I don't think she is??
> Newbie answers
> "Thankyou for your input but I know my Bitch as she is My Dog , I take on board your reservations but I am going to go ahead"
> 
> There have been so many similar threads started by newbies with similar questions and responses. They certainly wouldn't have been encouraged to go ahead. So it may come across to some as double standards
> 
> I am in no way getting at Jo here as I personally have had questions fired at me about wanting to breed and having to defend my decisions and its not pleasant, however as I said this thread comes across like "The way to breed a litter properly" yet there are some issues which weren't perfect and as I said if a newbie came on asking with the same set of circumstances I am sure we would all be trying to get them to change their minds.
> 
> I want to add that I am not judging Jo's decisions just explaining why 'some' maybe judging or making comments now?


I have to disagree with you, for the simple reason that my circumstances are not really fully posted about on this thread, would I dissuade someone or try to? Maybe, I've posted before about the differences in both my Labrador girls, the rate at which they matured, but I haven't posted all my personal circumstances nor the full details that made me decide to finally go ahead. What I will say is that reference keeps being made with a few snide remarks about me not showing or working Tau (not by you but they are out there), no, I haven't shown her, I know her character and I know she wouldn't enjoy it, she has been out on shoots, I haven't had the opportunity to work her as much as I would like for a number of reasons, none of which I'm willing to go into here. I have, however, had a number of assessments made on her conformation and working ability, not just from show/working folk, but from an orthopaedic specialist. So your comparison is a little bit weak on that part, but I do see where you're coming from.



jo5 said:


> *This thread was not meant to be a *how to do it* but a *how hard it is* and the decisions you make as you go along, and to try and show that it isn't as straight forward as sticking two dogs together and coming up with a healthy litter of puppies that you can sell for a profit. It's certainly done that!! I've even had criticism for sharing the experience which was meant to be the aim of the thread, but then you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time.*
> 
> As I said in my earlier post, Its how it comes across maybe not what you intended but it does none the less, there are several comments littered about the thread about 'moronic' so called breeders etc should read this to see how it should be done etc etc.Not made by you but by others reading the thread and obviously reading it as 'how to do it properly'. As I said I have no issue with you breeding Tau, the pups are adorable and hopefully you will get out of this experience the pup that you wanted.
> However on the face of it the facts were, she was over 5yrs having her first litter and she is not proven in Show or Field. So basically you bred your pet bitch because you liked her conformation and ability and she is a good bitch, regardless of all the Health tests that were carried out if anyone else had come onto a forum such as this with that criteria they would have been told in no uncertain terms it wasn't a good idea. That was my point and maybe why some have issues with some decisions made???
> I would be a hypocrite to have a Bee in my bonnet about Pet breeders as I personally don't believe you have to Show to be a good breeder but thats a whole other thread
> Unfortunately when you put yourself out there warts and all backlash invariably crops up somewhere along the line
> Again I am at pains to state that I am not judging you Jo in fact I was estatic for you when she was found in pup because you deserved it, there is no denying the hard work both physically and emotionally you put into having this litter and I am delighted that you have 7 healthy pups and a choice of which Bitch to keep.


The problem is, with posting, not only do I have no control over the critics (as has become very evident) but I have no control over what others say and yes, I do have friends who have posted on here a good couple of those have at least met me and my dogs, and can make honest posts about what they think of me and my dogs. Again, I'll point you towards what I've said above, about proving Tau, no-one here has seen her out on a shoot, I have, I've also had her out training on numerous occasions alongside working bred dogs and have had a number of assessments made on her working ability and conformation. She will never win a field trial, I'll never take her to a show, but she does what it says on the tin, she has some nice points, she has some things I'd like to improve on, but then that's down to stud dog choice.

The only reason I've come under criticism that I can see is that I've rubbed a few people up the wrong way with my decisions, because I haven't gone the way they wanted me to. I'm probably too vociferous for my own good, but I'd rather retain my own capacity to make a decision, rather than blindly follow others that I neither admire or respect, simply because I didn't want to put someone's nose out of joint for fear of a *backlash*.

Once this thread has run it's course, and I will finish it up to the point that puppy buyers come and take away their pups, I will be posting a lot less, I simply don't have the time, nor the inclination to open myself up to the sort of personal attacks that have come my way over the last couple of weeks.


----------



## Malmum

I can see jo5's point as I too have had the same reservations particularly with the age of Tau but she is fine and so are her pups. 
I know many breeders on here have asked posters why do you want a litter just to keep one if she hasn't 'proved' herself in the show ring or working. The very same things have been said on the Malamute forum and this is no exception to PF at all.
I once stated that, only to be told by the very breeders that they have never actually said that and then see them post the same words again at a later date. I suppose you just can't win. You have all the relevant health tests but are still expected to show or work which isn't every ones cup of tea but it seems to breed simply healthy pets is somehow unacceptable.

I said once before that we need breeders who breed healthy pups for pet homes just as we do for show/working homes, unless pet buyers are expected to either go without or buy from BYB's etc. I would love one of these pups, secure in the knowledge that they are going to be healthy and home reared with much love, I couldn't care less whether mum has been shown as long as she has a good temperament and looks like the breed standard what else could I as a pet owner want?
I know Labs are flooding the market but so are many breeds, brought on (I believe) by the ability to freely advertise on the net with no charge. It's healthy pups of all breeds we want and many of the 'flooders' don't come under that category.


----------



## ozrex

Humph! Serious humph! We old bitches have the BEST puppies, don't we Tau? I was 38 when my older son was born and 41 when my younger son was born and they're VERY good pups. SO double humph!!

I am so sorry it took me so long to find and read this thread because once I found it, IT WAS A RIPPER! Thank you SO much Sleeping_Lion. It was VERY generous of you to share what happened, as it happened. I thoroughly appreciated every post that you made.

I am terribly sorry for the loss of the little yellow pup. I'm really rejoicing that there are seven, fabulous, little labby pups delighting you, Tau and one heck of a lot of people on here.

I'll never breed dogs, so it's a special privilege for me to be allowed to share your littler. Well done. You should be very proud of the way that you managed the whole affair. the words "responsible" and "loving" are the ones that spring to my mind. ENJOY!


----------



## jo5

Malmum said:


> I can see jo5's point as I too have had the same reservations particularly with the age of Tau but she is fine and so are her pups.
> I know many breeders on here have asked posters why do you want a litter just to keep one if she hasn't 'proved' herself in the show ring or working. The very same things have been said on the Malamute forum and this is no exception to PF at all.
> I once stated that, only to be told by the very breeders that they have never actually said that and then see them post the same words again at a later date. I suppose you just can't win. You have all the relevant health tests but are still expected to show or work which isn't every ones cup of tea but it seems to breed simply healthy pets is somehow unacceptable.
> 
> I said once before that we need breeders who breed healthy pups for pet homes just as we do for show/working homes, unless pet buyers are expected to either go without or buy from BYB's etc. I would love one of these pups, secure in the knowledge that they are going to be healthy and home reared with much love, I couldn't care less whether mum has been shown as long as she has a good temperament and looks like the breed standard what else could I as a pet owner want?
> I know Labs are flooding the market but so are many breeds, brought on (I believe) by the ability to freely advertise on the net with no charge. It's healthy pups of all breeds we want and many of the 'flooders' don't come under that category.


Thanks Malmum, thats exactly what I was trying to say,I wasn't knocking Jo but maybe the Double standards that are shown to newbie breeders on this forum and as you say its not jut this forum. As Jo says in her above post it is impossible to know everything about another persons dog from posting on a forum , so maybe other newbie breeders should be given the benefit of the doubt too until proven otherwise.


----------



## swarthy

jo5 said:


> Thanks Malmum, thats exactly what I was trying to say,I wasn't knocking Jo but maybe the Double standards that are shown to newbie breeders on this forum and as you say its not jut this forum. As Jo says in her above post it is impossible to know everything about another persons dog from posting on a forum , so maybe other newbie breeders should be given the benefit of the doubt too until proven otherwise.


For the record, with the exception of one or two breeds where there are real issues, if someone has a dog that's KC registered and made use of the recommended health-tests for that breed, - I don't discourage bitch owners from breeding.

Slightly different scenario for would be stud owners, simply because in many breeds there are lots of good dogs around, and pet studs can potentially do more damage to the gene pool, never mind the fact that their owners will be inexperienced and unable to guide novice breeders. Even pet owners have the choice of studs these days, so little need for un-health-tested or unregistered studs.

You do tend to find (again with a few exceptions), it is often the non-breeders who neither show nor work their dogs are the ones that shout most loudly about proving dogs etc

I have openly said on more than one occasions, I don't understand why pet only breeders breed, but if they have done things properly, then in many breeds, there is a need for them. I know a few pet breeders who use even more tests, and probably know as much about conformation and instinct as their equivalent show and working equivalents.

Sadly, what SL will never seem to understand is that the people who have tried to help are not "up themselves" whatsoever, and haven't ostracised her because she "wants to do her own thing". I do believe however that the misdirected snide accusations will reverberate for some time to come  and that isn't doing anyone any favours  nor will it serve to do so 

Much of what has been said both publically and privately has been misconstrued, exaggerated and quite clearly misunderstood - hey ho, such is the nature of the internet 

To say I wasn't surprised about Tau's age when I initially realised after seeing a health certificate posted on here with all Jo's personal details (but apparently she has moved so it doesn't make any difference) is a lie - I WAS surprised and said so 

I didn't "encourage" breeding, but I supported it knowing it was likely to happen regardless, and have taken criticism for doing so from people I respect - but like others, I do my own thing.

I do wish now I hadn't bothered after being accused of doing things I haven't denied - when all I've done is act out of kindness or concern - sh*t happens I guess - more fool me for even bothering 

To disregard the wisdom of more experienced breeders is an individuals prerogative and will be seen as foolish by some. Sometimes the decisions taken work, other times they don't, and the experienced will aknowledge if something works which they, based on their own knowledge and experience, thought wouldn't. Most people do cherry-pick, and if they recited their decisions would take a bit from A, something from B, maybe nothing from C etc etc

Historically, I have successfully managed to upset some people in the breeding world without trying - I never set out to do that - but it's what happened.

Sadly, on this occasion, people have been upset and potentially damaging rumours started intentionally, something the majority would try desperately never to do, regardless of their own views  .

This thread and what's happened on FB and other forums has descended into what can only be classed as childish playground tittle tattle with people all round fishing for information with just a few dissenting and incredibly sensible voices who are seeing things from both sides - and are spot on in classifying the situation exactly as is has evolved particularly over the last couple of weeks


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> Sadly, what SL will never seem to understand is that the people who have tried to help are not "up themselves" whatsoever, and haven't ostracised her because she "wants to do her own thing". I do believe however that the misdirected snide accusations will reverberate for some time to come  and that isn't doing anyone any favours  nor will it serve to do so


Sue, some of the people who made personal remarks and also sent me a nasty pm on FB are, in my opinion, up themselves, and I am entitled to that opinion. You weren't on the receiving end of it, it's not nice having people make incorrect assumptions about you and your dogs, nor is it nice to find out people are second guessing your judgement about doing the best for your dog. If, as you imply, reverberations for having an opinion of my own continue for some time, I would vastly prefer that than having to cosy up to people I do not like or respect, but there you go.

Whatever about the age of Tau, I remember having a conversation with you and you don't, you've got her details on your database as I gave you both the girl's details a few years ago when I first joined LF and had started Tau's health tests, and was part way through Indie's. So I'm not sure why it's such a surprise, but if you say it is, then fine, so be it. To be honest I'm past caring.

But if you can tell me you'd be happy with people making accusations about putting your bitch through an unecessary c-section, and that she wasn't in labour when you knew damn well she was, and you knew there were people going round trying to perpetuate that rumour; or if you'd be happy with people making accusations about not doing enough to save the life of a pup that was really struggling, then fine, personally, I am bl**dy angry, I'm bl**dy fuming to be honest.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> For the record, with the exception of one or two breeds where there are real issues, if someone has a dog that's KC registered and made use of the recommended health-tests for that breed, - I don't discourage bitch owners from breeding.
> 
> Slightly different scenario for would be stud owners, simply because in many breeds there are lots of good dogs around, and pet studs can potentially do more damage to the gene pool, never mind the fact that their owners will be inexperienced and unable to guide novice breeders. Even pet owners have the choice of studs these days, so little need for un-health-tested or unregistered studs.
> 
> You do tend to find (again with a few exceptions), it is often the non-breeders who neither show nor work their dogs are the ones that shout most loudly about proving dogs etc
> 
> I have openly said on more than one occasions, I don't understand why pet only breeders breed, but if they have done things properly, then in many breeds, there is a need for them. I know a few pet breeders who use even more tests, and probably know as much about conformation and instinct as their equivalent show and working equivalents.
> 
> Sadly, what SL will never seem to understand is that the people who have tried to help are not "up themselves" whatsoever, and haven't ostracised her because she "wants to do her own thing". I do believe however that the misdirected snide accusations will reverberate for some time to come  and that isn't doing anyone any favours  nor will it serve to do so
> 
> Much of what has been said both publically and privately has been misconstrued, exaggerated and quite clearly misunderstood - hey ho, such is the nature of the internet
> 
> To say I wasn't surprised about Tau's age when I initially realised after seeing a health certificate posted on here with all Jo's personal details (but apparently she has moved so it doesn't make any difference) is a lie - I WAS surprised and said so
> 
> I didn't "encourage" breeding, but I supported it knowing it was likely to happen regardless, and have taken criticism for doing so from people I respect - but like others, I do my own thing.
> 
> I do wish now I hadn't bothered after being accused of doing things I haven't denied - when all I've done is act out of kindness or concern - sh*t happens I guess - more fool me for even bothering
> 
> To disregard the wisdom of more experienced breeders is an individuals prerogative and will be seen as foolish by some. Sometimes the decisions taken work, other times they don't, and the experienced will aknowledge if something works which they, based on their own knowledge and experience, thought wouldn't. Most people do cherry-pick, and if they recited their decisions would take a bit from A, something from B, maybe nothing from C etc etc
> 
> Historically, I have successfully managed to upset some people in the breeding world without trying - I never set out to do that - but it's what happened.
> 
> Sadly, on this occasion, people have been upset and potentially damaging rumours started intentionally, something the majority would try desperately never to do, regardless of their own views  .
> 
> This thread and what's happened on FB and other forums has descended into what can only be classed as childish playground tittle tattle with people all round fishing for information with just a few dissenting and incredibly sensible voices who are seeing things from both sides - and are spot on in classifying the situation exactly as is has evolved particularly over the last couple of weeks


You know what, I've been on the verge of asking for this thread to be removed, not because I don't feel I've done right, but because I don't need the hassle right now, or the judgemental comments.

Who neither show nor work their dogs? So you work your dogs? You often say you know your dogs have working ability, have they, do you know how to spot a natural marking ability, can you tell if your dog is working an area or if it's sticking a two's up while it does what it wants? Really?

Much of what has been said publically and privately? How about the rumours which is why I've been so furious that people have been spreading about me submitting Tau to a c-section while she wasn't in labour, absolutely incorrect, nothing else I have posted personally is incorrect, I have however neglected to leave out names/breeds, but it's funny isn't it how my facts are less correct than the ones being perpetuated about my dogs.

What a martyr, you didn't encourage breeding, so your pm's of support and encouragement weren't actually meant then, shame you couldn't bl**dy well be as truthful to my face, or are you saving face now? Sorry Sue but if you really didn't agree with me breeding from Tau then you made a bl**dy good act of supporting me behind the scenes and on here before the [email protected] hit the fan because of a few incorrect rumours.

I was warned about the Labrador show scene, and I really underestimated it!!


----------



## Malmum

I suppose you can't please everyone and there will always be people to criticise regardless of how you try to do your very best to help. One thing I do know is I would have loved to have had some advice when I had my litter. I had a rubbish book, two daughters and the very basic in nursing experience with humans between us as hospital workers. No way would I have criticised anyone for trying to help, I wasn't even a member of a forum - we did it all alone with phone calls to our lovely vet who isn't a gold digger - thankfully.

I would not personally touch FB with a barge pole, from what my girls tell me it's a place for childish gossip and the kind of chit chat I would rather not be involved with and I'm not surprised there are bitchy comments on there. I wouldn't let that kind of rot bother me either though! Rise above those kind of comments and let the perpetrators play their silly games amongst themselves.


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## Sleeping_Lion

Malmum said:


> I suppose you can't please everyone and there will always be people to criticise regardless of how you try to do your very best to help. One thing I do know is I would have loved to have had some advice when I had my litter. I had a rubbish book, two daughters and the very basic in nursing experience with humans between us as hospital workers. No way would I have criticised anyone for trying to help, I wasn't even a member of a forum - we did it all alone with phone calls to our lovely vet who isn't a gold digger - thankfully.
> 
> I would not personally touch FB with a barge pole, from what my girls tell me it's a place for childish gossip and the kind of chit chat I would rather not be involved with and I'm not surprised there are bitchy comments on there. I wouldn't let that kind of rot bother me either though! Rise above those kind of comments and let the perpetrators play their silly games amongst themselves.


Oh I am rising above them, what most don't appreciate is that I have had an experienced breeder with me throughout, and numerous experienced breeders at the touch of a keypad. If I've ignored anyone, it's not to my knowledge, it's more likely people that are disgruntled that I and my vet didn't agree.

Anyway, Tau's stitches are due out tomorrow, I did ask for her x-ray to be emailed but I don't think the vet nurse took it seriously. I made a point of making the appointment with the vet that did the c-section so hopefully I can have her x-ray emailed to me.


----------



## Malmum

That's good! 

People can and are very hurtful at times and hope both parties on here will realise that viscous comments are only made to make a divide larger and serves no useful purpose. I can never understand why folk repeat hurtful comments to people they are supposed to be friends with, knowing full well it will only hurt them too. Just makes no sense to me.


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## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> What a martyr, you didn't encourage breeding, so your pm's of support and encouragement weren't actually meant then, shame you couldn't bl**dy well be as truthful to my face, or are you saving face now? Sorry Sue but if you really didn't agree with me breeding from Tau then you made a bl**dy good act of supporting me behind the scenes and on here before the [email protected] hit the fan because of a few incorrect rumours.
> 
> I was warned about the Labrador show scene, and I really underestimated it!!


I wasn't going to post again because it wasn't worh the hassle.

*I SUPPORTED YOU - YES - which I have re-iterated in EVERY SINGLE POST ON THIS THREAD -* How the hell does that make me a martyr? how dare you.

*There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between "supporting" and "encouraging" you were going to do this come what may.*

You have treated me disgustingly Jo - I helped you at every turn and now you call me a martyr.

JC - I even went actively trying to get you puppy buyers - I emailed every single person on my waiting list and gave them all the details of your litter - I put the litter on my website - I produced pedigrees for you.

*I SUPPORTED you Jo and have never said any different - and you have kicked me well and truly in the teeth - thanks a lot  *


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Whatever about the age of Tau, I remember having a conversation with you and you don't, you've got her details on your database as I gave you both the girl's details a few years ago when I first joined LF and had started Tau's health tests, and was part way through Indie's. So I'm not sure why it's such a surprise, but if you say it is, then fine, so be it. To be honest I'm past caring. .


Ironically, I am not such an anorak that I go and check my database every time someone tells me they are going to breed.

I've got over 100.000 dogs records in total - I'm very sorry that I am unable to re-iterate all their details, including colour, health results and age at the drop of a hat.

For the record, not all dogs details are in my main database and only get dropped in when someone consults me.

I had a catastrophic computer failure a couple of years ago and lost over 30K records from my actual "up and running" database including Tau's which I put back in when you were looking at pedigrees - without the DOB which I first saw when you posted the health certificate results on here, because I also noted to you privately that I was concerned all your personal details were on it, but you said as you had moved house, that this didn't matter.

Whilst I do know exactly what I've said, I've just noted down all my posts on this thread for posterity - I suggest you read them - I have supported you at every turn, you laughed at me when I asked why you were going back and fore to the vets, saying "you want to check how dilated she was anyway".

I said the puppies looked lovely and were glad they had arrived safely - I told you publically when the puppy started going downhill so quickly after birth to be prepared to lose her because Mother nature often knows better than us.

I don't understand why you can't just enjoy your puppies during a short period which can never be recaptured.

I sm not a liar, nor a martyr, nor spiteful - I clearly didn't realise that "helping and supporting" something was going to happen anyway translated to "encouraging" - a move I defended on the basis that there are far worse things happening in the breeding world.

You've conjured up a hell of a lot of things that to my knowledge has never been said, by people who haven't given any of this a second thought.


----------



## RAINYBOW

What a shame that this thread has come to this 

Come on ladies, step away from the argument now i am sure you both have way more important things to be doing and i can guarantee there is a big healthy dose of misunderstanding in the middle of all this. Hearsay, tittle tattle and gossip are very dangerous things. 

Whats done is done and now the only issue really is Are these lovely healthy well bred pups ? and that is for the furture owners to decide when they part with their cash for one


----------



## swarthy

RAINYBOW said:


> What a shame that this thread has come to this
> 
> Come on ladies, step away from the argument now i am sure you both have way more important things to be doing and i can guarantee there is a big healthy dose of misunderstanding in the middle of all this. Hearsay, tittle tattle and gossip are very dangerous things.
> 
> Whats done is done and now the only issue really is Are these lovely healthy well bred pups ? and that is for the furture owners to decide when they part with their cash for one


I was quite happy to walk away from it - but I am not prepared to be publically accused of untruths - when all I have ever tried to do is help and support - it's a very nasty kick in the teeth which has shocked and surprised more than a few people who know damn well the lengths I will go to to help anyone intent on breeding - more fool me - I won't be doing it again for anyone


----------



## RAINYBOW

swarthy said:


> I was quite happy to walk away from it - but I am not prepared to be publically accused of untruths - when all I have ever tried to do is help and support - it's a very nasty kick in the teeth which has shocked and surprised more than a few people who know damn well the lengths I will go to to help anyone intent on breeding - more fool me - I won't be doing it again for anyone


I can clearly see how upset you are and i can also see how upset SL is. I am not here to take sides and have no idea of what has been going on except what is being posted here.

Seeing how upset you both are is why i am suggesting you both walk away from the argument or at very least take it to PM where it is less public and therefore maybe a little less hurtful xx There is nothing to gain now for either of you in slogging it out on here except further hurt and room for bigger misunderstandings (oh and feeding the gossip monkeys  ) xx


----------



## rocco33

Ok, enough is enough - have no idea what's been going on or what has been said, but please can this be taken offline.


----------



## ElvieMogs

Agree a public forum is no place to continue this argument for this length of time. Frankly, all the "I said" "You said" stuff is boring for those not involved and upsetting for those who are. This has been a really interesting thread and it would be a shame if it was pulled by the mods because it has descended into acrimony.


----------



## emmaviolet

i really think that the way this thread is turning is such a shame.

surely SL if you are happy with the litter, they are healthy pups and mum is well too and you have good homes lined up then you should enjoy this time and not worry about what others say. if you do not show or work the dogs then you will prob never meet them anyway and can put it behind you.

the problem is when sharing details online is there will always be people who disagree and think things should be different, as a breeder you would have to put up with it and as a profession or vocation or hobbie it opens itself up for scrutiny.


----------



## miti999

swarthy said:


> I was quite happy to walk away from it - but I am not prepared to be publically accused of untruths - when all I have ever tried to do is help and support - it's a very nasty kick in the teeth which has shocked and surprised more than a few people who know damn well the lengths I will go to to help anyone intent on breeding - more fool me - I won't be doing it again for anyone


I hope you don't go anywhere Swarthy and thanks again for your advice via our pm's

I certainly hope you continue to give support here to any future novice breeders


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## emmaviolet

miti999 said:


> I hope you don't go anywhere Swarthy and thanks again for your advice via our pm's
> 
> I certainly hope you continue to give support here to any future novice breeders


same here, i have never had your help but such experience is crucial for those starting out and i agree i hope you continue to give support and advice to future breeders.


----------



## cavmad

I think that like the majority of the people on here i dont know what is going on (really a bit thick unless it jumps up and hits me) but cant we please just enjoy these pups. I will never breed as i'm too much of a coward and know all the things that can go wrong so i like threads like this and see pups from day one. I can get my puppy fix and not have the worry


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## ozrex

May I second Cavmad?

It's a wonderful thread Sleeping_Lion and I've really appreciated the chance to enjoy Tau's motherhood and her puppies. It's been sad in parts with the death of that poor little pup but it has been the most enthralling experience for us "non-breeders".

We hear so much about bybs, accidental breeding and pfs and their attendant horrors it's especially heart-warming to hear the day-to-day business of a wanted, planned and well bred litter.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> I wasn't going to post again because it wasn't worh the hassle.
> 
> *I SUPPORTED YOU - YES - which I have re-iterated in EVERY SINGLE POST ON THIS THREAD -* How the hell does that make me a martyr? how dare you.
> 
> *There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between "supporting" and "encouraging" you were going to do this come what may.*
> 
> You have treated me disgustingly Jo - I helped you at every turn and now you call me a martyr.
> 
> JC - I even went actively trying to get you puppy buyers - I emailed every single person on my waiting list and gave them all the details of your litter - I put the litter on my website - I produced pedigrees for you.
> 
> *I SUPPORTED you Jo and have never said any different - and you have kicked me well and truly in the teeth - thanks a lot  *


So I'm supposed to know the difference between your pm's that support and encourage, and your pm's that don't agree with what I'm doing but support and encourage?

Sorry but it doesn't wash. As for your intimations that the reverberations will continue for some time to come, I hope to hell that means that people don't agree with me, otherwise it reads very much as if pups from this litter won't do very well in the show ring because of my opinions, of course that never happens, apart from it very much does and moves are afoot to stop it happening in the future.

For those that want to know, pups are two weeks old, eyes opening, and doing very well.

PS Thank you Sue, but all pups are definitely spoken for, so you can tell your waiting list there are none available, thank you for your help.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> Ironically, I am not such an anorak that I go and check my database every time someone tells me they are going to breed.
> 
> I've got over 100.000 dogs records in total - I'm very sorry that I am unable to re-iterate all their details, including colour, health results and age at the drop of a hat.
> 
> For the record, not all dogs details are in my main database and only get dropped in when someone consults me.
> 
> I had a catastrophic computer failure a couple of years ago and lost over 30K records from my actual "up and running" database including Tau's which I put back in when you were looking at pedigrees - without the DOB which I first saw when you posted the health certificate results on here, because I also noted to you privately that I was concerned all your personal details were on it, but you said as you had moved house, that this didn't matter.
> 
> Whilst I do know exactly what I've said, I've just noted down all my posts on this thread for posterity - I suggest you read them - I have supported you at every turn, you laughed at me when I asked why you were going back and fore to the vets, saying "you want to check how dilated she was anyway".
> 
> I said the puppies looked lovely and were glad they had arrived safely - I told you publically when the puppy started going downhill so quickly after birth to be prepared to lose her because Mother nature often knows better than us.
> 
> I don't understand why you can't just enjoy your puppies during a short period which can never be recaptured.
> 
> I sm not a liar, nor a martyr, nor spiteful - I clearly didn't realise that "helping and supporting" something was going to happen anyway translated to "encouraging" - a move I defended on the basis that there are far worse things happening in the breeding world.
> 
> You've conjured up a hell of a lot of things that to my knowledge has never been said, by people who haven't given any of this a second thought.


I've conjured up a lot of things, have you read this post in isolation?

You're not such an anorak in that you check details when people tell you you're going to breed, and yet, surprise surprise, Tau's age is a surprise, more so from the person who I enquired to use their stud dog, and then decided against, not because, I hasten to add, he isn't good quality, but then his owner made the mistake of putting Tau's age as six on a breed forum, which caused a few reverberations, I'm sure they are as fed up with as I am.

I've laughed at you? Sue, I suggest you take a reality check, in no way did I laugh at all when I had the bl**dy hard decision facing me of Tau in Labour coming through it with a natural birth, what the bl**dy hell are you thinking of suggesting I'm laughing at anyone at that particular juncture, take a fookin reality pill for God's sake!

Needless to say, it's been left out that I've had a backlash from people behind the scenes from a) subjecting Tau to a c-section when she wasn't in labour, and b) losing the pup. So, for anyone that actually wants to know the truth, my vet, who is pretty much as infuriated as me, would like to speak to anyone who questions OUR decisions this far, as he's fairly certain people who don't know any different are calling his professionalism into question? Anyone want his details I will forward them with pleasure, he has been forwarned.

You know, I keep coming up against this minority of show folk who seem to think they rule the roost, and those who feel the need to support them come what may, I don't think I need to say how little I feel the need to support anyone, as I am well able to form my own opinions and don't need nor want the guidance of those I don't respect, no matter how many folks try to assume I need it.


----------



## Malmum

Haven't looked on here for a while and hoped to read about the pups. 

Know what, if these were my pups I really wouldn't give a sh!t what anyone thought of my decisions and would be proud of what I have achieved with these lil kids and their mummy. 

They say 'Advice is to be given and not taken' so why not move on and enjoy the pups now - they're not here for long and why waste time going over old ground?

Hope the pups are still doing well and mum too.  I was far too busy enjoying my babies and still miss them to this day, wishing I had cuddled them more to be sat on a forum rowing. Don't waste a second.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Afinmore said:


> I've not been involved in this at all, so have no idea what has been said to who and by whom, but there are a couple of things I feel need pointed out here.
> 
> 1. Jo has repeatedly, in many places, asked for opinions on EVERYTHING. She has then mostly either argued against those opinions or ignored them. I know, as I have been on the receiving end of it elsewhere, as were many others. That's all well and fine, but when you consider that many of these people have been breeding for years (and decades in some cases!)and have bred plenty of litters, and are on the whole very well clued up on most aspects as they ARE actively showing or working or both, some of these people surely can't help being upset at having their freely offered, well meaning advice ignored.
> 
> 2. Is it really necessary to put every little thing on every forum going? If one is going to disregard the advice of people much more experienced in these matters, surely its best just to keep one's own counsel and get on with tings in your own way as apparently no-one online knows anything anyway....?
> 
> This reminds me hugely of the person who recently asked me in private to comment on his 'doodle' puppies, which I grudgingly commented on ONLY as he insisted (I am very against them, surprise, surprise!), then complained bitterly to everyone in public about people who didn't have the balls to slate his breeding of the litter off in public but were quite happy to do so in private...
> 
> I refuse to say any more on this, other than I feel you are being unjustly hard on people YOU asked for advice, way before any mating took place :-(


You know, I feel I have to just bring this to the fore one more time. Fiona, I did not ask advice from those you choose to respect, I asked an opinion brought on by your own posting about pale chocs, one I quickly realised was not from those I respected. I know many who work their dogs, I know a few who show their dogs, and I know a lot who are opinionated, your friends who you respect, fall into the latter, you respect them if you wish, I neither asked their opinion, nor do I respect them or their opinion.


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've conjured up a lot of things, have you read this post in isolation?
> 
> You're not such an anorak in that you check details when people tell you you're going to breed, and yet, surprise surprise, Tau's age is a surprise, more so from the person who I enquired to use their stud dog, and then decided against, not because, I hasten to add, he isn't good quality, but then his owner made the mistake of putting Tau's age as six on a breed forum, which caused a few reverberations, I'm sure they are as fed up with as I am.
> 
> I've laughed at you? Sue, I suggest you take a reality check, in no way did I laugh at all when I had the bl**dy hard decision facing me of Tau in Labour coming through it with a natural birth, what the bl**dy hell are you thinking of suggesting I'm laughing at anyone at that particular juncture, take a fookin reality pill for God's sake!
> 
> Needless to say, it's been left out that I've had a backlash from people behind the scenes from a) subjecting Tau to a c-section when she wasn't in labour, and b) losing the pup. So, for anyone that actually wants to know the truth, my vet, who is pretty much as infuriated as me, would like to speak to anyone who questions OUR decisions this far, as he's fairly certain people who don't know any different are calling his professionalism into question? Anyone want his details I will forward them with pleasure, he has been forwarned.
> 
> You know, I keep coming up against this minority of show folk who seem to think they rule the roost, and those who feel the need to support them come what may, I don't think I need to say how little I feel the need to support anyone, as I am well able to form my own opinions and don't need nor want the guidance of those I don't respect, no matter how many folks try to assume I need it.


Oh for gods sake get over yourself Jo

I am NOT an anorak - you've certainly availed yourself extensively of many years of my extensive research on more than one occasion.

Please DO NOT call my a liar - the FIRST time I realised Tau's age was when you posted a certificate on here with her details on it - and I commented to you about not realising her age and that I felt you really shouldn't be putting your personal details on the forum (address etc) - to which you replied that you had moved.

I don't know ANYONE who has said anything about the pup that died - the only comment I made (which is in this thread) was that it made sense how the pup had got milk into her lungs, as it is something which happens with bottle feeding - been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

and if "lol" isn't "laughing at my comments" again on a public thread - then clearly I've been misunderstanding the abbreviated language of the interent and text-speak for a long time 

I don't know why you can't just go and enjoy your puppies instead of harping on over and over again about calling me a liar - when I am NOT.

You've thrown your toys out of the pram aiming comments at people who probably don't even know you've had a litter and if they did, probably couldn't care less - you flatter yourself if you think it was anything more than a one hit wonder surprise by quite a few people - they have better things to worry about than spend their lives speculating consistently on the steps you've taken.

======================

*When you confirmed Tau was in whelp - I redid your pup pedigrees for you - I went out of my way to contact all my waiting list and all the recent enquirie I'd received and directed them to you for pups (if they chose not to come to you there is nothing I can do about that) and actively promoted your litter on my website personally endorsing the stud dog used. *

You insulted my perceptions of my own dog having working potential from their retrieving and flushing out - you know damn well that I can only walk very short distances because of crippling back problems - I would LOVE to be able to indulge my dogs and exploit their skills with training - sadly, my health prevents me from doing that - but you insult me for that as well - hey ho

Go and enjoy your pups and get over yourself with all the points scoring and digging at people who have done nothing but try to help you.


----------



## LexiLou2

swarthy said:


> Oh for gods sake get over yourself Jo
> 
> I am NOT an anorak - you've certainly availed yourself extensively of many years of my hard research.
> 
> Please DO NOT call my a liar - the FIRST time I realised Tau's age was when you posted a certificate on here with her details on it - and I commented to you about not realising her age and that I felt you really shouldn't be putting your personal details on the forum (address etc) - to which you replied that you had moved.
> 
> *I don't know ANYONE who has said anything about the pup that died - the only comment I made (which is in this thread) was that it made sense how the pup had got milk into her lungs, as it is something which happens with bottle feeding - been there, done that, got the t-shirt.*
> 
> and if "lol" isn't "laughing at my comments" again on a public thread - then clearly I've been misunderstanding the abbreviated language of the interent and text-speak for a long time
> 
> I don't know why you can't just go and enjoy your puppies instead of harping on over and over again about calling me a liar - when I am NOT.
> 
> You've thrown your toys out of the pram aiming comments at people who probably don't even know you've had a litter and if they did, probably couldn't care less - you flatter yourself if you think it was anything more than a one hit wonder surprise by quite a few people - they have better things to worry about than spend their lives speculating consistently on the steps you've taken.
> 
> ======================
> 
> *When you confirmed Tau was in whelp - I redid your pup pedigrees for you - I went out of my way to contact all my waiting list and all the recent enquirie I'd received and directed them to you for pups (if they chose not to come to you there is nothing I can do about that) and actively promoted your litter on my website personally endorsing the stud dog used. *
> 
> You insulted my perceptions of my own dog having working potential from their retrieving and flushing out - you know damn well that I can only walk very short distances because of crippling back problems - I would LOVE to be able to indulge my dogs and exploit their skills with training - sadly, my health prevents me from doing that - but you insult me for that as well - hey ho
> 
> Go and enjoy your pups and get over yourself with all the points scoring and digging at people who have done nothing but try to help you.


Just a small point, the pup that died got milk on her lungs from feeding fromTau, it was AFTER she got milk on her lungs and was starting to go down hill that supplment feeding began. So it was she was actually feeding from mum she was getting fluid on her lungs and not the bottle feeding.

Just thought I'd clear that little bit up.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> I wasn't going to post again because it wasn't worh the hassle.
> 
> *I SUPPORTED YOU - YES - which I have re-iterated in EVERY SINGLE POST ON THIS THREAD -* How the hell does that make me a martyr? how dare you.
> 
> *There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between "supporting" and "encouraging" you were going to do this come what may.*
> 
> You have treated me disgustingly Jo - I helped you at every turn and now you call me a martyr.
> 
> JC - I even went actively trying to get you puppy buyers - I emailed every single person on my waiting list and gave them all the details of your litter - I put the litter on my website - I produced pedigrees for you.
> 
> *I SUPPORTED you Jo and have never said any different - and you have kicked me well and truly in the teeth - thanks a lot  *





swarthy said:


> Ironically, I am not such an anorak that I go and check my database every time someone tells me they are going to breed.
> 
> I've got over 100.000 dogs records in total - I'm very sorry that I am unable to re-iterate all their details, including colour, health results and age at the drop of a hat.
> 
> For the record, not all dogs details are in my main database and only get dropped in when someone consults me.
> 
> I had a catastrophic computer failure a couple of years ago and lost over 30K records from my actual "up and running" database including Tau's which I put back in when you were looking at pedigrees - without the DOB which I first saw when you posted the health certificate results on here, because I also noted to you privately that I was concerned all your personal details were on it, but you said as you had moved house, that this didn't matter.
> 
> Whilst I do know exactly what I've said, I've just noted down all my posts on this thread for posterity - I suggest you read them - I have supported you at every turn, you laughed at me when I asked why you were going back and fore to the vets, saying "you want to check how dilated she was anyway".
> 
> I said the puppies looked lovely and were glad they had arrived safely - I told you publically when the puppy started going downhill so quickly after birth to be prepared to lose her because Mother nature often knows better than us.
> 
> I don't understand why you can't just enjoy your puppies during a short period which can never be recaptured.
> 
> I sm not a liar, nor a martyr, nor spiteful - I clearly didn't realise that "helping and supporting" something was going to happen anyway translated to "encouraging" - a move I defended on the basis that there are far worse things happening in the breeding world.
> 
> You've conjured up a hell of a lot of things that to my knowledge has never been said, by people who haven't given any of this a second thought.





swarthy said:


> Oh for gods sake get over yourself Jo
> 
> I am NOT an anorak - you've certainly availed yourself extensively of many years of my extensive research on more than one occasion.
> 
> Please DO NOT call my a liar - the FIRST time I realised Tau's age was when you posted a certificate on here with her details on it - and I commented to you about not realising her age and that I felt you really shouldn't be putting your personal details on the forum (address etc) - to which you replied that you had moved.
> 
> I don't know ANYONE who has said anything about the pup that died - the only comment I made (which is in this thread) was that it made sense how the pup had got milk into her lungs, as it is something which happens with bottle feeding - been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
> 
> and if "lol" isn't "laughing at my comments" again on a public thread - then clearly I've been misunderstanding the abbreviated language of the interent and text-speak for a long time
> 
> I don't know why you can't just go and enjoy your puppies instead of harping on over and over again about calling me a liar - when I am NOT.
> 
> You've thrown your toys out of the pram aiming comments at people who probably don't even know you've had a litter and if they did, probably couldn't care less - you flatter yourself if you think it was anything more than a one hit wonder surprise by quite a few people - they have better things to worry about than spend their lives speculating consistently on the steps you've taken.
> 
> ======================
> 
> *When you confirmed Tau was in whelp - I redid your pup pedigrees for you - I went out of my way to contact all my waiting list and all the recent enquirie I'd received and directed them to you for pups (if they chose not to come to you there is nothing I can do about that) and actively promoted your litter on my website personally endorsing the stud dog used. *
> 
> You insulted my perceptions of my own dog having working potential from their retrieving and flushing out - you know damn well that I can only walk very short distances because of crippling back problems - I would LOVE to be able to indulge my dogs and exploit their skills with training - sadly, my health prevents me from doing that - but you insult me for that as well - hey ho
> 
> Go and enjoy your pups and get over yourself with all the points scoring and digging at people who have done nothing but try to help you.


For the record Sue, read back, I haven't accused you of lying once, you have however accused me of lying, thanks for that.

I've not insulted anything about your perceptions of your dog, I've asked questions, I tell you what, that's a helluva lot more than those you choose to consider worth giving respect to would give me and my dogs, and for what, because you know as well as I do how little they know when it comes to the world of field trialling, or are you kidding yourself with that one as well?

Thank you for the effort in redirecting your waiting list, I can confirm none of them got in touch, not that I'm worried atm, as all the pups are, as I've previously posted, reserved.

Just take a look back through your posts above, really says it all, who you respect, who you hope to respect, who I couldn't care less if they existed, sorry Sue, you've made a few comments on here that really show through the true colours of the showing community of Labradors, whether intentional or not.


----------



## Malmum

Coo - I wish I knew where SL lived  I'd sneak in the back door and grab those pups. Then I could give them loads of cuddles while nana is 'busy' lol! :yesnod:


----------



## swarthy

LexiLou2 said:


> Just a small point, the pup that died got milk on her lungs from feeding fromTau, it was AFTER she got milk on her lungs and was starting to go down hill that supplment feeding began. So it was she was actually feeding from mum she was getting fluid on her lungs and not the bottle feeding.
> 
> Just thought I'd clear that little bit up.


That surprises me and would suggest to me there was definitely a problem with the pup - bottle feeding could eaily make such a situation worse not better - and is typically the way a pup would get fluid on it's lung - which is why I suggested tube and syringe feeding (and from the response I received, it wasn't understood what I meant) - but if this was happening feeding off mum just after a c-section when milk often takes time to come through - that to me would suggest a definite problem with the pup.

NOBODY - absolutely nobody would wish harm on anyone's bitch or their puppies and said that at the time - I've lost pups and it's heartbreaking and something you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy.

I didn't resurrect this discussion, which everyone is clearly p*ssed off with.

I helped - a LOT - not encouraged - helped (and helped with many other things before for Jo on hers and other's behalf) - and feel like I've been very publically kicked in the teeth - and it just has to be continued doesn't it 

I wish now I had publically commented on Tau's age on the thread when I saw the certificate and the date of birth - but I didn't out of respect for Jo and I knew how some people would have reacted.

What a bl**dy joke that turned out to be - NOT.

Jo seems to think there is some massive conspiracy going on with her at the centre - she couldn't be more wrong - or if there is, I certainly haven't been privy to any of it - people have their own problems, difficulties and lives to manage to worry about what one small hobby breeder over in Yorkshire may or may not be doing.

I made the mistake of being concerned and talking to someone who put a good defensive argument up for the decisions made which I listened to and respected and said so - but hell - that doesn't make such a good story to tell tales on does it


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

LexiLou2 said:


> Just a small point, the pup that died got milk on her lungs from feeding fromTau, it was AFTER she got milk on her lungs and was starting to go down hill that supplment feeding began. So it was she was actually feeding from mum she was getting fluid on her lungs and not the bottle feeding.
> 
> Just thought I'd clear that little bit up.


Missed that, the pup was NEVER bottle fed, she was drip fed as the vet felt the problem was to do with her regurgitating milk ie a problem with her being able to keep the milk down in her stomach.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> That surprises me and would suggest to me there was definitely a problem with the pup - bottle feeding could eaily make such a situation worse not better - and is typically the way a pup would get fluid on it's lung - which is why I suggested tube and syringe feeding (and from the response I received, it wasn't understood what I meant) - but if this was happening feeding off mum just after a c-section when milk often takes time to come through - that to me would suggest a definite problem with the pup.
> 
> NOBODY - absolutely nobody would wish harm on anyone's bitch or their puppies and said that at the time - I've lost pups and it's heartbreaking and something you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy.
> 
> I didn't resurrect this discussion, which everyone is clearly p*ssed off with.
> 
> I helped - a LOT - not encouraged - helped (and helped with many other things before for Jo on hers and other's behalf) - and feel like I've been very publically kicked in the teeth - and it just has to be continued doesn't it
> 
> I wish now I had publically commented on Tau's age on the thread when I saw the certificate and the date of birth - but I didn't out of respect for Jo and I knew how some people would have reacted.
> 
> What a bl**dy joke that turned out to be - NOT.
> 
> Jo seems to think there is some massive conspiracy going on with her at the centre - she couldn't be more wrong - or if there is, I certainly haven't been privy to any of it - people have their own problems, difficulties and lives to manage to worry about what one small hobby breeder over in Yorkshire may or may not be doing.
> 
> I made the mistake of being concerned and talking to someone who put a good defensive argument up for the decisions made which I listened to and respected and said so - but hell - that doesn't make such a good story to tell tales on does it


If you didn't wish that amount of harm on a bitch, why the bl**dy hell would you message people and query whether YOU thought she was actually in labour or not?

Chuff it Sue, grow up and grow a pair and stop referring to me in the third party, it don't look good, and it certainly don't gain you any credibility considering what's gone on.


----------



## gorgeous

have some of this










and










cos its getting


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> For the record Sue, read back, I haven't accused you of lying once, you have however accused me of lying, thanks for that.
> 
> I've not insulted anything about your perceptions of your dog, I've asked questions, I tell you what, that's a helluva lot more than those you choose to consider worth giving respect to would give me and my dogs, and for what, because you know as well as I do how little they know when it comes to the world of field trialling, or are you kidding yourself with that one as well?
> 
> Thank you for the effort in redirecting your waiting list, I can confirm none of them got in touch, not that I'm worried atm, as all the pups are, as I've previously posted, reserved.
> 
> Just take a look back through your posts above, really says it all, who you respect, who you hope to respect, who I couldn't care less if they existed, sorry Sue, you've made a few comments on here that really show through the true colours of the showing community of Labradors, whether intentional or not.


Jo - you have publcially said I can't have been surprised at Tau's age - *that is accusing me of lying *

So none of my waiting list got in touch - nothing I can do about that I'm afraid - maybe I should email them to find out why and give you the feedback - or are you suggesting that is something else I didn't do? 

What are you talking about "really show the true colours of the showing community of labradors whether intentional or not"

My comments are MINE alone - I don't speak for anyone else - I speak for ME - NOT the showing community.

The rest of it - I don't have a clue what you are talking about


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

gorgeous said:


> have some of this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cos its getting


Which might be mildly humourous, but as Sue has pointed out, reverberations will continue, what those might be might be anyone's guess, knowing the show fraternity, I can only give a wildest guess, but it ain't good from where I'm standing, unless it can be confirmed that reverberations will be a stern wrist slapping and telling off about the tail twizzle trimming I may or may not have subjected my Labrador(s) to for the show ring?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> Jo - you have publcially said I can't have been surprised at Tau's age - *that is accusing me of lying *
> 
> So none of my waiting list got in touch - nothing I can do about that I'm afraid - maybe I should email them to find out why and give you the feedback - or are you suggesting that is something else I didn't do?
> 
> What are you talking about "really show the true colours of the showing community of labradors whether intentional or not"
> 
> My comments are MINE alone - I don't speak for anyone else - I speak for ME - NOT the showing community.
> 
> The rest of it - I don't have a clue what you are talking about


Err No Sue, I posted I remembered a conversation with you, which you don't remember, so because of that, you accused me of lying. Nice.

Honestly, the rest of it, I ain't got time for, I've got work a business, and the pups, hence not being on here for the last few days. Will catch up when I can but I will not let people accuse me of unecessarily putting Tau through a c-section, nor letting that pup go without a fight, and trying to find out what was actualy wrong, two things that seem to be coming back from those who don't know anything about me or my dogs, and there seem to be a fair few of those experts out there!


----------



## swarthy

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If you didn't wish that amount of harm on a bitch, why the bl**dy hell would you message people and query whether YOU thought she was actually in labour or not?


 I messaged ONE person on FB and we talked about it yes - and I admitted I was surprised based on what I had read on here - *please explain WHY this is wishing harm on your bitch * 

As I said - me being unable to disagree with counter argument doesn't make such a good story to report back b



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Chuff it Sue, grow up and grow a pair and stop referring to me in the third party, it don't look good, and it certainly don't gain you any credibility considering what's gone on.


Grow a pair of what exactly  for gods sake - you are continuing harping on and on about two things - her age and some comments about your girl and her c-section.

The support I've received somewhat contradicts this  But as you've clearly got plenty of friends happy to "tell tales out of school" - who knows 

=========================

You've never talked about anyone behind their back have you Jo? 

We'll forget the conversation you had in a chat room with other LF members about the fact a group of people assumed my hipscoring research was to enable me to justify breeding my girl with a high hipscore when nothing could have been further from the truth - it does help to have a long memory sometimes.

Or all the "behind the scenes" chatter that went on when I said I preferred Indie to Tau on LF.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Err No Sue, I posted I remembered a conversation with you, which you don't remember, so because of that, you accused me of lying. Nice.
> 
> Honestly, the rest of it, I ain't got time for, I've got work a business, and the pups, hence not being on here for the last few days. Will catch up when I can but I will not let people accuse me of unecessarily putting Tau through a c-section, nor letting that pup go without a fight, and trying to find out what was actualy wrong, two things that seem to be coming back from those who don't know anything about me or my dogs, and there seem to be a fair few of those experts out there!


You harped on and on and on that I did know about her age - you couldn't remember the conversation and won't believe I didn't have your girls details on my database - that is blatant accusation Jo.

I also said on this thread - your clearly made the right decision as mum and the babies were safe.

*and in gods name who the hell has said you let the pup go without a fight? * tell us - because I've not heard a single person say this - but you've got a bee in your bonnet about it - I've regularly said on this site (and on this thread) that sometimes, despite everything we do, mother nature knows best


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> I messaged ONE person on FB and we talked about it yes - and I admitted I was surprised based on what I had read on here - *please explain WHY this is wishing harm on your bitch *
> 
> As I said - me being unable to disagree with counter argument doesn't make such a good story to report back b
> 
> Grow a pair of what exactly  for gods sake - you are continuing harping on and on about two things - her age and some comments about your girl and her c-section.
> 
> The support I've received somewhat contradicts this  But as you've clearly got plenty of friends happy to "tell tales out of school" - who knows
> 
> =========================
> 
> You've never talked about anyone behind their back have you Jo?
> 
> We'll forget the conversation you had in a chat room with other LF members about the fact a group of people assumed my hipscoring research was to enable me to justify breeding my girl with a high hipscore when nothing could have been further from the truth - it does help to have a long memory sometimes.
> 
> Or all the "behind the scenes" chatter that went on when I said I preferred Indie to Tau on LF.
> 
> You harped on and on and on that I did know about her age - you couldn't remember the conversation and won't believe I didn't have your girls details on my database - that is blatant accusation Jo.
> 
> I also said on this thread - your clearly made the right decision as mum and the babies were safe.
> 
> *and in gods name who the hell has said you let the pup go without a fight? * tell us - because I've not heard a single person say this - but you've got a bee in your bonnet about it - I've regularly said on this site (and on this thread) that sometimes, despite everything we do, mother nature knows best


No Sue, you had Indie and Tau's info years ago, that's not accusation, that's fact, if your database blew a wobbly, that's up to you, but to then say after knowing me for several years, you are *surprised* at Tau's age, is like me saying I'm *surprised* Moz is chocolate, what a load of rubbish, of course I am aware of these peripheral facts. Deny it if you like the simple fact is, you have been aware of Tau's age, I haven't once accused you of lyining, I'll leave that to you as you seem to like it.

Lol, so because I've told you a few things behind the scenes, it's ok for you to talk about me behind my back, is that what you're saying? So, explain that along with your reverberations about the show world, what is it that I have to be worried about?

I hasten to add, I could carry on about a few more things supposedly relating to those I'm supposed to respect, all factual of course.


----------



## jo5

I am very saddened by this thread, Jo you have a lovely healthy litter, you have homes lined up for them, you have Tau who is recovering well. Please just leave it at that, you don't have to keep going over the same old ground. You have made it perfectly clear that you don't respect the opinions of others so why let it rattle you so much. If you really feel the way you have said about the people allegedly making comments about you then does it really matter what they say and I am really not sure why you brought it to the attention of the rest of the Forum on this thread in the first place. The majority of us would never have known about what was allegedly said by who, maybe a PM to the person you were annoyed by may have been the most sensible course of action.
Put all your energies into Tau and the pups, let the rest go.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

jo5 said:


> I am very saddened by this thread, Jo you have a lovely healthy litter, you have homes lined up for them, you have Tau who is recovering well. Please just leave it at that, you don't have to keep going over the same old ground. You have made it perfectly clear that you don't respect the opinions of others so why let it rattle you so much. If you really feel the way you have said about the people allegedly making comments about you then does it really matter what they say and I am really not sure why you brought it to the attention of the rest of the Forum on this thread in the first place. The majority of us would never have known about what was allegedly said by who, maybe a PM to the person you were annoyed by may have been the most sensible course of action.
> Put all your energies into Tau and the pups, let the rest go.


Why? Because I've been threatened and accused by some people of doing/saying things that I haven't you might be happy with that, I bl**dy well am not. The whole thread was about the difficulties in making decisions and these are some of the hardest decisions, to cut loose a helluva lot of life because I just do not have the time or inclination to keep coming back to put things right.


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## Sleeping_Lion

swarthy said:


> That surprises me and would suggest to me there was definitely a problem with the pup - bottle feeding could eaily make such a situation worse not better - and is typically the way a pup would get fluid on it's lung - which is why I suggested tube and syringe feeding (and from the response I received, it wasn't understood what I meant) - but if this was happening feeding off mum just after a c-section when milk often takes time to come through - that to me would suggest a definite problem with the pup.


HOW does that surprise you? That is exactly what I posted happened to that pup, inbetween reviving her, and trying to get her to feed and latch on to her mum. Milk wasn't taking a time to come through, the pup wasn't latching on, and when she managed to get enough in her, she then choked 20 to 30 mins later, writhing in agony meaning I had to resuscitate her to keep her going. I finally got her latching on but she couldn't keep enough down and was STILL choking, want to call a judgement on that one from afar?

You know, you can do 110% and still some people will try to convince you you've done 20%, and half of that is wrong, go for it.


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## RAINYBOW

Oh well i tried but this is going round in circles, SL you are like the preverbial dog with a bone and tbh i think this is just going round in circles now over a couple of points you disagree on. FFS let it go. 

I am going to publicly state on here i will be asking for this thread to be closed because i don't want to appear underhand however i see no point to it anymore with regards the puppies because you aren't posting any info on them (which is what most of us want to read) and all it is doing is causing upset and furthering the hurt because both of you feel you must have the right to reply (which is fair enough but unproductive).


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## gorgeous

Well said Rainybow. TBH have never seen anything like it - my seven year old and her friends argue less, this is playground tittle tattle.

If I were one of the puppy buyers and read this thread I think I would be walking away - it is very unprofessional.

SL - you are happy with your litter and the Mum so just ignore what others say. 

As the old proverbal says - let sleeping dogs lie!ut:


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## tra23dog

I haven't got involved in this thread and noboby on here knows me except for Sue, Jo and Fiona. I know how much Sue has helped you Jo and I know how upset she is by this! She is struggling with health problems and I know she still offers help and advice when it is probably the last thing she feels like doing! She has not lied or caused any trouble and I am asking you to leave her alone now. To be honest we are all to busy with our own lives and as for being jealous of you and your litter, most of us are into our 3rd and 4th generations of breeding and showing and working, so no jealousy there! You have posted on LF, Facebook and here constantly sniping at people who have tried to help you. You had massive support over helping your poorly pup on Facebook, including from me. I advised you to try Dopram V, glucose and Nutridrops, none of which you had or knew what they were (they are the 3 most important things in any whelping kit!) and we were all sad when you lost the pup as we have all been there. If you post every detail of a first litter, of course people are going to comment if you make the odd mistake! I think you may be trying to justify some of your actions by continually harping on about it all the time. It smacks of attention seeking and isn't professional at all. Go and enjoy your pups and stop posting about the crap!


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## DoodlesRule

At least all the sniping may put some off breeding if this is how things turn out. What a shame


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## Devil-Dogz

I havent a clue whats been going on, and personally dont wish to. Past caring whos fell out with who on here now..

The concern and most important thing SHOULD always be about the well-being of the bitch and potential puppies; If a breeder feels her bitch is struggling, or something is wrong they have every right to seek medical help. If a vet an breeder agree that the bitch needs a helping hand then that is where it ends, folk can have opinions but its VERY hard to have an opinion and judge someone on a situation they have only READ about. Being there, and watching your dog struggle, and stress out while in labour is VERY hard to watch. 
I can only imagine how harder it is when its your first litter. - Seeking help is ALWAYS better than not, incase folk feel you wasnt up to breeding in the first place, or because of pride. 

Each whelp is different, no two the same. - and nine times out of ten not text book!

It seems that Tau and her puppies had a lucky escape having a puppy blocking the birth canal, is dangerous. - Sometimes the puppy will move round, other times they wont - how any breeder is meant to look into a crystal ball an know this is beyond me! 
I am sure ALOT more folk would be questioning WHY SL hasnt seeked help, if Tau and her puppies were all to have lossed their lives due to the stuck puppy.

36 hours in labour is along time for a bitch, pushing or not. Its stressful and as the owner you are JUST as stressed. 

Things worked out for the best with this litter..Thank god, and thats all we should have a concern for! If you agree with SL or not thats a personal choice, but doesnt mean her choices were right or wrong, she did what she THOUGHT was best for her bitch and thats all ANY breeder can do...

Im due my first litter in a week and I can tell you now, aslong as I feel I did my best for my bitch ... I couldnt care less what others thought of my choices...Choices are often hard to make, even more so when you have little time to make them, and havent been in the same situation before. - I have the advantage of being involved in breeding, and a mum who has whelped a number of successful litters. NOT all first time breeders do.


Puppies are looking great SL, enjoy them!


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## emmaviolet

well this has turned very bitter indeed.

sl for someone who doesnt care about the show world you sure are going on about it enough!

also how will your pups suffer because of what the breeders say? will the new owners love them less now? that should be all you worry about.

enjoy your litter, they will be gone all too soon and then you will wonder why you spent so much time doing this!

i also think to bring your vet into this row and tell him about little more then chinese whispers of the breeding community that you believe are being said is a waste of time and im sure mine would think i was going mad if i brought him into such an argument!

swarthy has already said that she believed your girl was in labour but tbh you really shouldnt have been taking her to the vets all the time and moving her around as it disrupts the labour. and when you said you were having a c section if after an hour no pups that was bound to raise a few eyebrows as where is the time limit.

your arguments seem very petty to people who have helped you along the way and like others have said maybe would turn off a potential owner.

this is all very sad.


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## LexiLou2

emmaviolet said:


> well this has turned very bitter indeed.
> 
> sl for someone who doesnt care about the show world you sure are going on about it enough!
> 
> also how will your pups suffer because of what the breeders say? will the new owners love them less now? that should be all you worry about.
> 
> enjoy your litter, they will be gone all too soon and then you will wonder why you spent so much time doing this!
> 
> i also think to bring your vet into this row and tell him about little more then chinese whispers of the breeding community that you believe are being said is a waste of time and im sure mine would think i was going mad if i brought him into such an argument!
> 
> swarthy has already said that she believed your girl was in labour but tbh you really shouldnt have been taking her to the vets all the time and moving her around as it disrupts the labour. and when you said you were having a c section if after an hour no pups that was bound to raise a few eyebrows as where is the time limit.
> 
> your arguments seem very petty to people who have helped you along the way and like others have said maybe would turn off a potential owner.
> 
> this is all very sad.


I'm not going to get into he said she said, however I think I know a few of the answers to the points you raised.
A few of the pups new owners have indicated they would look to dabble with the showing world, however suggestions and indications have been made that the pups will now struggle to do well in the show world as SL has 'gone against the grain' somewhat. Having seen from an outsiders point of veiw how political the show world can be (not with labs, with a different breed) I in all honestly believe that this could be the case. I was surprised (and a bit horrified) at how much the dog show world is like a school yard play ground, who likes who, who is friends with who etc rather than about the dogs.

With regards to speaking to her vet SL asked for a copy of the x-ray and I believe the vet asked why, an out of interest type why. SL did not go into the in's and outs of the arguement however briefly explained that some people thought she rushed the c-section decision. Her vet was horrifed as this does to a degree question his professionalism, it has even been said on this thread vets recommend c-sections to make money!!! So he told SL that if anyone wanted his opinion they could contact him. She didn't really involve him, he sort of involved his self.

And Swarthys origional comment which I believe sparked this was that she DIDN'T believe Tau was in labour, although I appricate her comment has changed somewhat. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but as has been said, SL knows Tau better than anyone, she is not a lady to loose her head and panic, however from very early on she had a feeling something was not right, if you had a feeling something was not right when 9 lives were at risk would you act, or would you choose to wait which is the advice she was given?
I know having a dog that has issues I've been to the vets a few times because 'things weren't right' and this wasn't with a whole litter at risk.


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## emmaviolet

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Needless to say, it's been left out that I've had a backlash from people behind the scenes from a) subjecting Tau to a c-section when she wasn't in labour, and b) losing the pup. So, for anyone that actually wants to know the truth, my vet, who is pretty much as infuriated as me, would like to speak to anyone who questions OUR decisions this far, as he's fairly certain people who don't know any different are calling his professionalism into question? Anyone want his details I will forward them with pleasure, he has been forwarned.
> 
> You know, I keep coming up against this minority of show folk who seem to think they rule the roost, and those who feel the need to support them come what may, I don't think I need to say how little I feel the need to support anyone, as I am well able to form my own opinions and don't need nor want the guidance of those I don't respect, no matter how many folks try to assume I need it.


well to spread gossip from forums to a professional vet to me seems absurd. I would never tell a vet the latest online gossip in hope he would stick up for me. Im sorry but it is just wasting his valuable time.

In this position i would never tell my vet all of this and make him question what he did let alone prepare him to answer questions from forum members. The above post reads 
to me like rantings.


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## canuckjill

I am closing this thread, but would ask kindly, that Sleeping Lion start a new thread so we can keep up with the puppies progres....They look like wonderful chunky pups.....Also lets keep the new thread more positive no more squabbling lets leave it here....Thanks


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