# Sticky  For anyone considering breeding a rabbit.



## frags

I thought id do a thread for anyone considering breeding.
As a breeder i want to get across the message of breeding.

1) do you know the last 4 generations of the rabbit? if you do not know then dont breed as you could breed in all sorts of genetic problems, just because your bun dont show these problems dont mean there not lurking waiting to come out!

2) Are they cross breed or are you considering cross breeding? if so DONT! there are so many cross bred bunnys in rescue's longing for that special home!

3) Money? do you have the money to feed a litter until theyre approx 8-12 weeks? believe it or not you will NEVER make money on selling a litter of rabbits, i sell my french lops at approx £40 yet still make NO money as i have to upkeep the hutches, buy food, hay, straw, wood shavings, get jabs done, pay for paper and printing for birth certificates etc the list is never ending and thats without any vet care thats needed!

4) Time? It takes alot of time looking after rabbits and kits, i spend more time in my rabbitry than i do indoors LOL i have to go in the morning to top up water and give hay then in the evening to feed and every 2nd day clean litter trays and weekly clean the whole lot out which can take me a few hours to do all of them. more time needs to be taken with babies as the does hutch needs cleaning everyday.

5) Can you handle heartbreak? If the doe was to turn on the litter or abandon them could you handle it? or if just 1 wasnt to survive? its hard and heartbreaking!! could you raise a litter if mum couldnt? or if mum was to die? you have to feed that litter every 2 hours with formula and this has to be done with care or you can drown them!

There are so many reason's NOT to breed and im sure others will offer more of these reason's but i thought i would just add some of them incase your thinking "oh it would be nice to see what rabbit X and rabbit Y's babies would look like".

Leave it to people like myself to do the research and raise healthy strong rabbits.

*Update* April 2011, after few years of breeding i am now giving up. I cant afford the money that goes into breeding healthy buns as there are so many people breeding I cant find homes for mine. Also the time is a big commitment and i dont want to neglect the rabbits with other things i need to do, it just wouldnt be fair.
So here i am now a pet owner


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## MerlinsMum

Excellent post!
I used to breed & show rabbits myself, and I can vouch that everything in the above post is true. They are very hard work, often heartbreaking, and it's no way as easy to breed them successfully and properly as you might imagine.


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## Kammie

Well done Frags, very good post.


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## emzybabe

great points frags, your a great bunny mummy


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## Acacia86

Great post.

I bred and showed Dutch rabbits a few years ago and i agree with every bit. I lost a doe once with her first litter   the baby died too  

I had a couple of horrible times but the good outweighed it. I had to do sooooo much research when it came to breeding some steel greys and brown-greys out of my Dutchies. I was the only person in the shows that had them. But the time i put in was madness!

I would never take it up again, instead i leave it to the other mad people.......i like some time to myself 
xx


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## crofty

Good post, theres also the issue of space, tiny little 3ft/4ft hutches are never ever ok for any rabbit.


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## srhdufe

What a brilliant thread. Rep for you


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## frags

srhdufe said:


> What a brilliant thread. Rep for you


thanks to all that rep'd me for this


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## frags

crofty said:


> Good post, theres also the issue of space, tiny little 3ft/4ft hutches are never ever ok for any rabbit.


deffo not for breeding, they need alot more space as mummy buns needs room to escape the nagging babies or she could hurt them by thumping, i had this when lily was indoors on her 1st litter!! she was in an indoor cage and there wasnt enough room and sadly 1 got killed from her thumping on them.


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## frags

Here's another reason not to breed

http://www.petforums.co.uk/rabbits/85946-just-back-vets.html


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## frags

This is a video from a member YouTube - Thining about breeding your rabbit ?


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## happysaz133

Good post frags, I am hoping Magic's story will show others. I am happy she's doing OK.


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## nicky1234

I find the world of rabbit breeding a very unsociable place, no one is supportive or willing to give help or advice to anyone else as they all think they're the perfect breeder. 

I agree with everything you said, it does take a lot of time, commitment and money to rear successful healthy litters, I have been breeding for 4 years now. But I think that whilst we should, as responsible breeders, do your best to discourage others from having litters without weighing up the risks, we should also be there to support them and offer them help and advice to do it properly if they are going to go ahead. 

Compared to dog breeding, cat breeding etc. rabbits breeders are very quick to judge other people, always assuming that they're never as good as themselves. Try helping out fledgling breeders rather than shunning them so that less mistakes are made and more resposible breeding occurs - not back yard breeding because they dont know how to do it properly, no one has ever told them or offered them any help, they've always just been told not to do it!


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## crofty

nicky1234 said:


> I find the world of rabbit breeding a very unsociable place, no one is supportive or willing to give help or advice to anyone else as they all think they're the perfect breeder.
> 
> I agree with everything you said, it does take a lot of time, commitment and money to rear successful healthy litters, I have been breeding for 4 years now. But I think that whilst we should, as responsible breeders, do your best to discourage others from having litters without weighing up the risks, we should also be there to support them and offer them help and advice to do it properly if they are going to go ahead.
> 
> Compared to dog breeding, cat breeding etc. rabbits breeders are very quick to judge other people, always assuming that they're never as good as themselves. Try helping out fledgling breeders rather than shunning them so that less mistakes are made and more resposible breeding occurs - not back yard breeding because they dont know how to do it properly, no one has ever told them or offered them any help, they've always just been told not to do it!


Responsible adults dont just start breeding they research it first so they avoid mistakes, saying no-one told them is a cop out, if you dont know what you're doing dont do it because its the poor rescues that pick up the pieces and the buns that end up there are lucky, there is waiting lists for almost every rescue for rabbits to come in and many die waiting.

There are currently 35,000 rabbits in rescues why encourage people to bring nore into the world? Serious breeders that do it to improve the breed fair enough but these people that just breed their pet rabbits because it would be nice to have fluffy babies or because they want to earn a few quid out of their pets i will never support.


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## nicky1234

Im not asking you to support those kinds of breeders I was just saying that everyone has to start somewhere. Its all well and good doing your reseeach but a lot of what you read online is complete rubbish. When I first started out I found a lot of stuff online that I would laugh at now I know what its really like, even talking to my local vet was a waste of time. No one was willing to answer my questions because they all thought I was out just to make money out of if. I finally found a lovely lady who helped me a lot. She doesnt breed to show, she breeds so people can have healthy, friendly pet rabbits and without her Id have had to make a lot of mistakes to learn how to do things properly. 

Breeders who breed to 'improve the breed' also make me laugh. Following guidelines and rules set down saying that this breed should look like this and this breed should be no bigger than this. Its all a load of rubbish. A rabbit should be bred from if she is friendly, with a nice personality, no history of any illnesses or dental problems and same for the buck. A rabbit should be bred from just because she has nice markings, or a good mane or is a particular weight. She make look pretty but if she's nasty and aggressive she's going to be the first one to end up in a rescue centre, not the happy, relaxed cross breed. 

Just for the record I dont cross breed my rabbits. I have some stunning breeding adults, in mini lops and lionhead, and I breed all of them because they have wonderfull personalities. All my babies have equally lovely personalities and everyone who has bought a rabbit from me keeps in touch and none ever end up in rescure centre as I always say I will take them back if they can no longer look after them. I have been to breeders before who show their babies and their does are nasty, unsociable and basically fed up of being carted to shows every other week, being prodded and poked for the benefit of adding kudos to the owners bragging ability.


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## crofty

nicky1234 said:


> Im not asking you to support those kinds of breeders I was just saying that everyone has to start somewhere. Its all well and good doing your reseeach but a lot of what you read online is complete rubbish. When I first started out I found a lot of stuff online that I would laugh at now I know what its really like, even talking to my local vet was a waste of time. No one was willing to answer my questions because they all thought I was out just to make money out of if. I finally found a lovely lady who helped me a lot. She doesnt breed to show, she breeds so people can have healthy, friendly pet rabbits and without her Id have had to make a lot of mistakes to learn how to do things properly.
> 
> Breeders who breed to 'improve the breed' also make me laugh. Following guidelines and rules set down saying that this breed should look like this and this breed should be no bigger than this. Its all a load of rubbish. A rabbit should be bred from if she is friendly, with a nice personality, no history of any illnesses or dental problems and same for the buck. A rabbit should be bred from just because she has nice markings, or a good mane or is a particular weight. She make look pretty but if she's nasty and aggressive she's going to be the first one to end up in a rescue centre, not the happy, relaxed cross breed.
> 
> Just for the record I dont cross breed my rabbits. I have some stunning breeding adults, in mini lops and lionhead, and I breed all of them because they have wonderfull personalities. All my babies have equally lovely personalities and everyone who has bought a rabbit from me keeps in touch and none ever end up in rescure centre as I always say I will take them back if they can no longer look after them. I have been to breeders before who show their babies and their does are nasty, unsociable and basically fed up of being carted to shows every other week, being prodded and poked for the benefit of adding kudos to the owners bragging ability.


Like i said there are 35,000 pet bunnies sat in rescues so why breed more when rabbits are dying horrible deaths because the rescues cant take them? Just doesnt make any sense to me. I dont believe there is a nasty bunny only unhappy bunnies that are not handled, neutered or bonded. At least rescues neuter them give them their jabs and homecheck first.


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## nicky1234

35,000 bunnies awaiting homes regardless of whether more rabbits are being bred for pets or for show. How can you condone one type of breeding and not others when you're sole problem with breeding is because there are too many unwanted bunnies already?

My argument is that if rabbits are bred to be relaxed and happy around humans then they never end up in rescue centres in the first place because their owners dont get fed up with them like they do aggressive bunnies.


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## crofty

nicky1234 said:


> 35,000 bunnies awaiting homes regardless of whether more rabbits are being bred for pets or for show. How can you condone one type of breeding and not others when you're sole problem with breeding is because there are too many unwanted bunnies already?
> 
> My argument is that if rabbits are bred to be relaxed and happy around humans then they never end up in rescue centres in the first place because their owners dont get fed up with them like they do aggressive bunnies.


The reason rabbits end up in rescues is because people can walk into a shop and buy them then dump them when they get bored. I codone breeding particular breeds to a standard for health reasons, theres lots of problems that arise from cross breeding buns. Like i sad buns are only aggressive if they are unhappy and un-neutered. Its about educating people not breeding more buns for the sake of. There was a un-spayed "very aggressive" doe in PAH adoption centre for over a year before i convinced them to give her to me to rehome to a lady, we had her spayed and bonded with a buck and shes now the sweetest bun.


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## Kammie

crofty said:


> Like i said there are 35,000 pet bunnies sat in rescues so why breed more when rabbits are dying horrible deaths because the rescues cant take them? Just doesnt make any sense to me. I dont believe there is a nasty bunny only unhappy bunnies that are not handled, neutered or bonded. At least rescues neuter them give them their jabs and homecheck first.


I'm with Crofty. Far too many buns in rescue because someone thought it would be a bit of fun to breed their pets or because they thought they knew it all and would be able to find them good homes. You'd be surprised how many ads you see online from people saying they want to sell or "get rid" of their rabbit because they're moving house, had a baby, can't be bothered because they weren't given the right advice by the "breeder" and didn't have a clue what looking after a rabbit means.

One of my rabbits is an ex breeding doe, I saved her from certain death because this so called breeder I got her from said she was agressive and was being put to sleep the following day. The rabbits this breeder had were all stuck in tiny shoebox hutches barely able to turn let alone stretch out. Rosie is now 4 years old and I've had her for three years, she was spayed and vaccinated the week after I saved her and doesn't have an agressive bone in her body despite what I was told by the "breeder".

Lets now leave this thread alone and leave it as it was intended, to advice people against breeding. If someone is serious about breeding they will do all the research first and speak to people, Frags never intended this thread to be a debate on whether breeding is good or bad.


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## crofty

Kammie said:


> I'm with Crofty. Far too many buns in rescue because someone thought it would be a bit of fun to breed their pets or because they thought they knew it all and would be able to find them good homes. You'd be surprised how many ads you see online from people saying they want to sell or "get rid" of their rabbit because they're moving house, had a baby, can't be bothered because they weren't given the right advice by the "breeder" and didn't have a clue what looking after a rabbit means.
> 
> One of my rabbits is an ex breeding doe, I saved her from certain death because this so called breeder I got her from said she was agressive and was being put to sleep the following day. The rabbits this breeder had were all stuck in tiny shoebox hutches barely able to turn let alone stretch out. Rosie is now 4 years old and I've had her for three years, she was spayed and vaccinated the week after I saved her and doesn't have an agressive bone in her body despite what I was told by the "breeder".
> 
> Lets now leave this thread alone and leave it as it was intended, to advice people against breeding. If someone is serious about breeding they will do all the research first and speak to people, Frags never intended this thread to be a debate on whether breeding is good or bad.


Yes sorry Frags, anyone considering breeding should do their research first and seriously consider what they will be getting themselves into.


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## nicky1234

Attempting to stop everyone from breeding is never going to happen. No animal should be sold in a shop, end of, I think any pet should only be availabe from breeders or the like, regardless of what they are, at least we agree that bunnies should not be sold in pet shops. 

But breeding is never going to stop, so at least if its going to go ahead it should be done for the right reasons. Why do people actually want to show their rabbits? It can only be for their own gain because it honestly does absolutely nothing for the breed. 

The does you took from the rescue was probably very unhappy, most rabbits in rescues are, but then so were these from the breeder who bred to show. Her does were unhappy and aggressive which led to the babies learning from their behaviour and as soon as those babies go to their new homes they're going to be dumped in a hutch at the bottom of the garden and forgotten about. At least rabbits that start off friendly have a better chance.


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## nicky1234

crofty said:


> Yes sorry Frags, anyone considering breeding should do their research first and seriously consider what they will be getting themselves into.


I agree, as I said from the start. Not all breeders are the same though and shouldnt be tarred with the same brush. Im just sick and tired of people assuming that because someone is BRC registered and shows their bunnies that they know whats best and look after them better. My rabbits have huge cages and are bred very little, every baby is reared lovingly, and all go to new homes with a pack of information about to care for them properly.


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## Kammie

nicky1234 said:


> Attempting to stop everyone from breeding is never going to happen. No animal should be sold in a shop, end of, I think any pet should only be availabe from breeders or the like, regardless of what they are, at least we agree that bunnies should not be sold in pet shops.
> 
> But breeding is never going to stop, so at least if its going to go ahead it should be done for the right reasons. Why do people actually want to show their rabbits? It can only be for their own gain because it honestly does absolutely nothing for the breed.
> 
> The does you took from the rescue was probably very unhappy, most rabbits in rescues are, but then so were these from the breeder who bred to show. Her does were unhappy and aggressive which led to the babies learning from their behaviour and as soon as those babies go to their new homes they're going to be dumped in a hutch at the bottom of the garden and forgotten about. At least rabbits that start off friendly have a better chance.


As said before please drop it now and leave this thread alone, it is intended to advise AGAINST breeding if you would like to advice people to breed then feel free to make your own thread but this isn't where you should be doing it.


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## nicky1234

Kammie said:


> if you would like to advice people to breed then feel free to make your own thread but this isn't where you should be doing it.


That isnt want Im doing in the slightest. There are plenty of websites out there telling people not to breed, maybe someone should actually create one telling the 'truth' about breeding and helping those people that want to start, or people that find themselves with babies accidentally, so that they dont have to make mistakes.


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## Kammie

nicky1234 said:


> That isnt want Im doing in the slightest. There are plenty of websites out there telling people not to breed, maybe someone should actually create one telling the 'truth' about breeding and helping those people that want to start, or people that find themselves with babies accidentally, so that they dont have to make mistakes.


Then why don't you start one?


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## nicky1234

I have plenty of information already on my own website. Thank you


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## frags

wow what an intersting read lol

nicky1234, i can tell you now NO ONE in the fancy would EVER breed a nasty rabbit no matter if it was the best in colour or type!!! i recently had to send a rabbit back to a breeder as he turned nasty within 2 weeks of being here!!! I wouldnt even dream of breeding it into my line!!

Yes showing rabbits is pleassure! Just as is horse racing or dog racing and all other sports! I have fun at shows and as for the comments about rabbit world being unsociable, what a load of crap!!! I have sooooooooooooo many friends in the rabbit world and feel you have *insulted* me and my friends with that comment!!

When i jump on someone about breeding there 'pet shop buns' i also (if you read some of my other post to previous people) offer to find these people good breeding stock and not something with defects.

I Breed to show but also breed good quality pets with great health and tempraments, i also give follow on food a care sheet and a life time of support!

Oh and at the BRC your not 'registered' your simply a member of a club and the BRC is a great club to be joined to IMO!


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## Kammie

nicky1234 said:


> I have plenty of information already on my own website. Thank you


The idea of a forum is to share information. Your trying to give your opinions on breeding yet not willing to give us any reasoning for it. All I'm saying is why don't you share those opinions on a new thread even a link to your website rather than hyjacking a very well liked member of this forums thread. Frags is very well respected here by many members and is a very good breeder who knows what she's talking about. Its a bit unfair of you to come here insulting her when you only join the forum today and know absolutly none of us. You've not just insulted one member but several of us. Maybe take a minute to get to know people before insulting them.

Frags again sorry for taking over the thread.


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## frags

Kammie said:


> The idea of a forum is to share information. Your trying to give your opinions on breeding yet not willing to give us any reasoning for it. All I'm saying is why don't you share those opinions on a new thread even a link to your website rather than hyjacking a very well liked member of this forums thread. Frags is very well respected here by many members and is a very good breeder who knows what she's talking about. Its a bit unfair of you to come here insulting her when you only join the forum today and know absolutly none of us. You've not just insulted one member but several of us. Maybe take a minute to get to know people before insulting them.
> 
> Frags again sorry for taking over the thread.


You have nothing to say sorry about hun, i just dont like people to call all exhibitors unsociable or whatever nicky1234 said as they are very good friends and have helped me alot. Not only them but my friends here too!


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## Kammie

frags said:


> You have nothing to say sorry about hun, i just dont like people to call all exhibitors unsociable or whatever nicky1234 said as they are very good friends and have helped me alot. Not only them but my friends here too!


You know you always have plenty of friends on here. Doesn't matter what strangers they aren't important.


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## crofty

nicky1234 said:


> I have plenty of information already on my own website. Thank you


Most rabbits in rescues are only unhappy because they've been mistreated before they got there. You've been told to leave it so i suggest you respect peoples opinions and do just that. You could always post a link to your website so people can look. Theres no need to get on your high horse and start insulting people, unfortunately there are very few good breeders around, Frags is one of them. BRC means nothing to me, show me how you keep your rabbits and tell me how you vet their new homes and then we can see how good you are :wink:


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## FEJA JUODAS

i agree with the post on this...kids often want to breed their pets i add...nuissances, it is nice to have little bunnies, but they have too many ! and one cannot let them loose in the WILD as tame rabbits will be picked up and EATEN by HAWKS and BIRDS OF PREY and FOXES etc ! 

now of course the FASHION is for smaller rabbits nowadays. mine are Giants so not popular except with rabbit fanciers i add. and me !

one needs a great deal of SPACE and land for many rabbits. in France, we have cheap concrete HUGE hutches for them...and i have other hutch designs for breeding does....let us not go there yet...not wishing to encourage rabbit breeding too much.


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## Rini

Rini is spayed but if she wasn't I wouldnt think of breeding her as she has territorial problems and a few personality issues and I wouldn't want to breed more rabbits which would have these issues :/ although saying that, before she was spayed, she didnt have these problems, so if she was bred she may have calmed down and stopped spraying naturally... there again she could have just got like she is now, further into puberty. 
Lol anyways, I think its important to think about health problems and even personality traits when deciding to breed, too many people just breed cause they dont wanna spay/neuter or they dont think into it properly. Especially since you can make money from it.


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## louisescott

Hi everybody, 

I am new to this site, I am on another though. 

I have recently got my first Mini Rex's a Broken Havana Buck and a Blue Doe. Thye are cousins so I definately would not breed them together. But, I do have interests in showing and breeding. 
I was researching for 5 months beofre I even got my rabbits, and still researching now, which is how I come across this thread. 
My Doe is only 3 and half months old yet so I still have time to change my mind, which I may do.

Obviously everyone needs to protect their own animals of interest. I am very 'into' my dogs. I have a Border Collie and he is very active, I always tell people to think again when they ask about him as they want a clever dog. But also, people who are serious, I tell them the real truth, the good, the bad and the ugly. So they can then make up their own minds, but anyone wishing to get one and they have done their homework etc, then I will be behind them 100% of the way. 

And that is exaclt what I plan on doing with my bunnies and any baby bunnies that may leave me in the future.

I feel I am very responsible and will only do what I think is best, both of my rabbits are in 6ft, 2ft, 2ft hutches, or just over. They both have many toys and teddies, both love cuddles with me and my son, they are well looked after, or spoiled should I say, lol.

But if there is any advice you would like to share, I would really appreiciate it. 
I love my bunnies, they are not here to make money, or to just look cute. They are here to brighten up my days : )

Louise x


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## crofty

wacky said:


> anyone who pays a good price for a rabbit is unlikley to have it end up in rescue are they unless they have more money than sense its usly the free to good home ones that end up there those who pay good money are your geuin rabbit lovers


Oh crikey what utter rubbish, the majority of rabbits in this country live in tiny hutches and are forgotten about. I have probably met one breeder that keeps her rabbits in decent accomodation. What size accomodation do you have? And of course you can reduce the risk of genetic problems by researching rabbits breeding lines. There are so many rabbits sat in rescues, why breed more just for a hobby, i think its selfish, it certainly is not for the benefit of the rabbit 

Good rescues homecheck, vaccinate and neuter their rabbits before begin rehomed for a donation that doesnt even cover that cost. I'd never go to a breeder.


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## crofty

louisescott said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> I am new to this site, I am on another though.
> 
> I have recently got my first Mini Rex's a Broken Havana Buck and a Blue Doe. Thye are cousins so I definately would not breed them together. But, I do have interests in showing and breeding.
> I was researching for 5 months beofre I even got my rabbits, and still researching now, which is how I come across this thread.
> My Doe is only 3 and half months old yet so I still have time to change my mind, which I may do.
> 
> Obviously everyone needs to protect their own animals of interest. I am very 'into' my dogs. I have a Border Collie and he is very active, I always tell people to think again when they ask about him as they want a clever dog. But also, people who are serious, I tell them the real truth, the good, the bad and the ugly. So they can then make up their own minds, but anyone wishing to get one and they have done their homework etc, then I will be behind them 100% of the way.
> 
> And that is exaclt what I plan on doing with my bunnies and any baby bunnies that may leave me in the future.
> 
> I feel I am very responsible and will only do what I think is best, both of my rabbits are in 6ft, 2ft, 2ft hutches, or just over. They both have many toys and teddies, both love cuddles with me and my son, they are well looked after, or spoiled should I say, lol.
> 
> But if there is any advice you would like to share, I would really appreiciate it.
> I love my bunnies, they are not here to make money, or to just look cute. They are here to brighten up my days : )
> 
> Louise x


Why breed them then? Why can't you just love them as pets instead of risking upsetting that? I personally don't like showing, its not something rabbits enjoy. They'd be happier neutered and cuddling up together.


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## crofty

wacky said:


> i was thinking of that one for my guinie pigs not my rabbits as mine are conties so get your facks right i was keeping rabbits when you were still in nappies and most have lived happly untill naturel causers has took its toll so dont try to tell me how rabbits should be kept you rescue centres always think you know more than any one eles there is some genuin rabbit lovers out there there is also some cruel baxxxxxxxx but im not one of them ive loved animals al my life and would not dream of being cruel so have a go at the cruel bxxxxxx who put them in rescue centers in the first place before you start judging anyone and get your facks right first


Sorry but I find your posts quite difficult to understand....  You're the one that came here for advice on breeding rabbits so don't tell me you're more experienced at looking after rabbits than me. Would love to see pics of this amazing set up you have. So you breed conti's? Well I would never put a giant breed in a hutch anyway, they need a shed with an attached run.

There is no need to be so aggressive, I'm afraid like i said before you have not convinced me breeding rabbits like you do is of any benefit to anyone other than yourself, I never said you were cruel. I have my *facts* right, everything I have stated in my above past have come from what you have said in yours.  Do you homecheck your babies new homes? Give them advice sheets on neutering, vaccinating, accomodation, the need for company?

I am concious this is a sticky thread and that people come here for advice and perhaps are thinking about breeding rabbits, someone like you coming on here saying its perfectly fine to breed rabbits without any need for knowledge of their genetic history is hardly responsible.

Breeding more rabbits just adds to the rescues problems.


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## Guest

wacky said:


> as i have said before proper rabbit lovers do not put there rabbits in rescue i rest my case


Sorry I have to step in here, just because someone pays money for a rabbit doesn't mean they are responsible, 90% of my pets are other peoples un-wanted 
In fact I rescued my BEW dwarf lop from a tiny hutch at the bottom of a garden with little to no food and his previous owners paid quite a bit of money for him :incazzato:


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## crofty

wacky said:


> well thats disgusting i wont donate to them anymore


You did not answer any of my questions. It's not always about people being cruel its people breeding irresponsibly. There are simply not enough homes for all theses rabbits and yet there are thousands of people still breeding them and not homechecking new homes or selling them to petshops.


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## crofty

wacky said:


> pet shops are the worst placers to sell them too have you seen the size of there cagers and how many they keep in them i would never by from a pet shop you dont know where they have come from and you never see the parents i am not breeding in a big way just so mybe i could provide good healthy rabbits for people who might want a house rabbit and want to view its parents to knw where its come from thats all


But you say you dont look into their genetic history so how do you know you're are breeding healthy rabbits? All of mine are rescues and cam from awful conditions, they were not easy to handle and each had their own issues but they are all the friendliest happiest buns now and follow me everywhere.


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## crofty

wacky said:


> well im verey happy for you a nd beleave you do a good job but a lot of people want a rabbit from a baby so they can bring iot up to love them and follow them around and name it themselvs and so it getys used to there voice thats not so wrong is it ive seen my rabbits parents and grand parents all are healthy and freindly so im not that daft as to breed from unhealthy or aggressive stock i have looked into all this i want to breed nice big freindly house rabbits


That makes no sense, if you go to a rescue at least the bun is neutered, vaccinated and you have a good idea of their temperment. Buying a baby bunny you have to go through all the hormones and waiting to get them neutered and you're not guaranteed a nice temperment.

This is my four rescue buns coming in for dinner after a run round the garden... my chocolate tan was like having a wild rabbit when i got him, he used to shake, thump and climb the hutch walls to get away from me. Teddy the frenchlop used to be cage aggressive too.

YouTube - My four coming in for dinner after a few hours freeranging in the garden

Like I said you cannot tell me you are breeding healthy rabbits without knowing their genetic history. You could be breeding in problems from further down the lines. There are loads of giants in rescues at the moment looking for homes.


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## Guest

wacky said:


> well im verey happy for you a nd beleave you do a good job but a lot of people want a rabbit from a baby so they can bring iot up to love them and follow them around and name it themselvs and so it getys used to there voice thats not so wrong is it ive seen my rabbits parents and grand parents all are healthy and freindly so im not that daft as to breed from unhealthy or aggressive stock i have looked into all this i want to breed nice big freindly house rabbits


Just because you have seen their parents and grand parents doesn't mean they are genetic free. Some defects stay hidden until you either match that gene with the other half or the defect can just pop up.
If you don't know the genetic history for at least 4 generations on *both* sides then you shouldn't be breeding the rabbits IMO.
I mean even good breeders who do everything right still end up with issues just popping up from time to time 

Can I ask do you know anything about genetics in rabbits?


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## frags

Even 4 generations wont help, i had some mess last year from rabbits i knew of 5 generations 
I dont think there is such thing as a 100% genetic problem bunny anymore due to the bad breedings that have happened by uneducated breeders


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## Lil Miss

wacky said:


> anyway theres more than me breeding on this site so have a go at them not me


its not just breeding, its how you do it if you want to see the results of people breeding things they shouldnt i will happily post a thread of some of the genetic defects i have had to take care of and deal with the heart break from

yes i know genetics, no i dont breed

if you are going to breed you NEED to know the genetic history of all the animals you are breeding to prevent animals being born like this.
yes i know it isnt a rabbit but the same applies
hamsters :: Video-0006.mp4 video by Lil_Miss_ - Photobucket

teeth like this









need i go on?


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## wacky

B3rnie said:


> I have one more thing to say :mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:
> Your just not getting it


yes i do get it i have bred before without any problems and by the way i used to breed hamsters in 1969 for 4 years then when wed went on to breeding rabbits and ferrits cause i had more room so i do know about genetics and all that can go wrong ive had some bad luck in my time but all breeders get that just because you deal with rescue wich is very good dose not give you the right to think every one eles is thick ive had a lot of years to exsperence things that can go wrong but the good out ways the bad and theres nothing better than seeing a litter of healthy kits hopping round the garden i do think rescues do a good job but you cant judge eveyone with the same standeds as those who put there buns in rescue because they cant care for them thats all im saying


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## noushka05

wacky said:


> yes i do get it i have bred before without any problems and by the way i used to breed hamsters in 1969 for 4 years then when wed went on to breeding rabbits and ferrits cause i had more room so i do know about genetics and all that can go wrong ive had some bad luck in my time but all breeders get that just because you deal with rescue wich is very good dose not give you the right to think every one eles is thick ive had a lot of years to exsperence things that can go wrong but the good out ways the bad and theres nothing better than seeing a litter of healthy kits hopping round the garden i do think rescues do a good job but you cant judge eveyone with the same standeds as those who put there buns in rescue because they cant care for them thats all im saying


you might never dream of dumping your rabbits in rescue but what about the babies you sell ??...you cant guarantee that they wont end up in some rescue or left languishing in a hutch at the bottom of some garden practically forgotten about, and the more animals you produce the more chance there is of this happening, rabbits are long lived animals and sadly with many people the novelty wears off all too soon , unfortunatley there just arnt enough good responsible owners out there for all the rabbits flooding the pet market .


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## crofty

wacky said:


> do you because if you dont beleave in breeding then how do you anyway i am a bit fed up with people judging me i have healthy rabbits despite what you or others say case is closed


lol just because I personally don't see the point in breeding rabbits does not mean I dont know anything about it! Its obvious you just avoid all the questions you are uncomfortable to answer because you blindly breed your rabbits for your enjoyment with no consideration of their well being or that of their offspring. If you insist on breeding, at least do it responsibly. You have said nothing in your posts to prove you are a good breeder at all, im judging you on your replys. Remember this is a public forum and others will read this.


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## crofty

frags said:


> Even 4 generations wont help, i had some mess last year from rabbits i knew of 5 generations
> I dont think there is such thing as a 100% genetic problem bunny anymore due to the bad breedings that have happened by uneducated breeders


No its true nothing will 100% guarantee healthy kits but then it vastly reduces the risks, you wouldnt breed an animal with a history of genetic defects. Thats why you do it Frags and why you responsibly breed.


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## crofty

wacky said:


> anyway theres more than me breeding on this site so have a go at them not me


I will always question any breeder I feel is adding to the problem that rescues are constantly cleaning up!! Frags for example researches genetic history and has always posted pics of her lovely set up and educates anyone that buys one of her frenchies so i have no problem with her at all.


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## crofty

wacky said:


> thats the same with all pets even if you vet them out unless you vist evey week wich i dont think they will like you dont know how long they will keep them for or weather they will get fed up or miss treat them you just have to trust them


You have a better chance of them going to a good home by going their seeing where they will be kept and talking to a person than blindly just selling your kits to anyone.


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## noushka05

wacky said:


> thats the same with all pets even if you vet them out unless you vist evey week wich i dont think they will like you dont know how long they will keep them for or weather they will get fed up or miss treat them you just have to trust them


well imo that just washing your hands of them once theyve been sold...its about time all breeders took responsiblity for what they produce, they should be home checking and even doing contracts for thier kits to ensure should these new owners get fed up of them at anytime in the future then the breeder takes them back and takes full responsibility for them by either finding them a new home or keeping them. This would practically solve the rescue crisis


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## noushka05

wacky said:


> thats just shere rubish would you like it if the person you bought it from kept invading your home all the time to keep tabs to make sure you are looking after it propley who do you think you are social sevicers anyway there would be a lot of job losers if there were know rescues so i think you had better talk to some breeders and tell them what you have just told me and wait for a ansewr i bet thats why recuses dont get many costermers because your knoking at there doors evry two minits anyway would like to chat but i have rabbits to see too


if this is aimed at me i never said keep going round to check on the sold rabbits all the time lol,...i said do a home check which means just making sure potential new owners have everything in place to give the rabbit a good life and to do a contract saying if they no longer want the rabbit then it must go back to breeder and not be dumped in rescue or neglected...simples


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## frags

noushka05 said:


> well imo that just washing your hands of them once theyve been sold...its about time all breeders took responsiblity for what they produce, they should be home checking and even doing contracts for thier kits to ensure should these new owners get fed up of them at anytime in the future then the breeder takes them back and takes full responsibility for them by either finding them a new home or keeping them. This would practically solve the rescue crisis


 This is why i always have empty hutches, i always offer bring back option, but obviously id never pay for a returned animal unless there was an illness/problem.


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## noushka05

frags said:


> This is why i always have empty hutches, i always offer bring back option, but obviously id never pay for a returned animal unless there was an illness/problem.


its a pity there arnt more responsible breeders out there like you Frags



wacky said:


> and tell me how you would know if they are sticking to this unless you kept tabs no you wouldnt would you i rest my case


well maybe they could send emails and pics of the bunnies

and i know all too well that once you sell an animal there are no guarantees that that animal will be cared for for the rest of its days but at the end of the day surely its better to do something to try to protect it than do nothing at all ....when youre responsible for bringing an animal into this world that responsibility should last for the animals lifetime imo and also you should ensure that only the best quality breeding stock are used with a traceble ancestry and this should apply when breeding anything from horses to mice and everything inbetween...like rabbits lol


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## frags

Lol i wouldnt know all the genetics on colours, im so not that advanced on the colour genetics lil miss but if i get stuck il ask you


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## sue&harvey

Can we please remember that people have different opinions. Insults will not be tolerated.


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## Tanya1989

Had a tidy up, please keep on topic.


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## frags

Tanya1989 said:


> Had a tidy up, please keep on topic.


Thank you, not sure what happened but greatful for the tidy up.
Hear your in hospital? Hope you are well soon x


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## wacky

well it looks like you are all anty breeding and its geting boreing hearing the same old thing so im out of here


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## alster

Nice post!

I got both my bunnies from a rescue home, and they said it was probably the result of an irresponsible breeder...


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## frags

Thought i should update the original post with the fact i am no longer breeding


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## Oryctolagus Cuniculas

frags said:


> 2) Are they cross breed or are you considering cross breeding? if so DONT! there are so many cross bred bunnys in rescue's longing for that special home


A major point made here and i know it is made all the time yet people are still cross breeding? I don't know if this is down to ignorance or they just do not understand that there are in fact just to many rescue's out there at the moment  I have 3 my self and they are still loving bunnies . Please people love a rescue :cryin: lol

Here's a good site to get you started =p

Rabbit Rehome - List of Rabbit Rescue Centres with Bunnies for Adoption


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## geordiegaviino

As I new rabbit owner the idea to buy a pure bred buck to mate with my doe naturally crossed my mind. 

After reading this post and all the comments that followed... I now have every intention to spay my doe and never put her in a situation to even have a accidental litter never mind planning her to have a litter! 

Though I agree more assistance should be giving to those who wish to breed. Though in my opinion if you wish to breed then inform the breeder your buying your rabbit off and a good breeder should be able to pick a good quality breeding material rabbit from their stock with a friendship supply of information for you. 

Honesty with your breeder is key to starting off... well at least it is key to start breeding in the dog world


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## isa jelly

This is a good post. Baby rabbits can cause trouble. If you don't believe me look at the threads I've posted. My bunnies nearly murded a cat!!!


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## LittleHolly

I know this thread is old but I thought Id throw in my experience when I thought 'hey I have 1 male and 1 female rabbit lets stick them together and have babies!' the idea at the time very exciting and the more I thought about it the more I convinced myself I wanted them to have babies before my mum had the male neutered. My girl Crystal had 5 babies they were all beautiful and everything so perfect she looked after them and they were just a joy to have, however when they started getting older 2 out of 5 had health problems 1 had an over shot jaw this meant his teeth didnt meet so his bottom teeth grew and grew and by 7 weeks old they were growing up his nose and needed clipped at the vets within 1 week his teeth were in his nose again this time vet told me that when he was big enough he'd need an operation to have his bottom teeth removed (this cost alot of money) and the 2nd rabbit with health issues needed regular dentals and had a permanent watery eye so needed his tear ducts flushed every 2 weeks so again he cost me alot of money both these rabbits were unrehomeable so while the other 3 got homes (1 which id have loved to have kept but couldn't because of the 2 ill babies) I had to keep the 2 with health issues because no one wanted them. imo especially the one with the perminant watery eye was just born to suffer. I stupidly put 2 pet shop rabbits together for cute babies with no knowledge of their genetics both rabbits appeared healthy however health issues were just passed onto their babies. I learnt a valuable lesson from this and would never breed again.


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## Paige McGrory

hi guys so I got my new rabbits and the owner messaged me later saying they got with an escaped male on the 7th Feb and I have realised one of them has gone really fat and i can feel lumps kicks and movement and shes also built a nest however the other rabbit isnt so fat and i couldnt feel any lumps but shes built and nest AND pulled loads of fur today and last night but the other rabbit hasnt

any ideas??

thankyou!


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## Summersky

PLease don't poke and prod them yourself, but have them both vet checked.


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## Paige McGrory

you can see it from the outside


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## kim mckay

nicky1234 said:


> Im not asking you to support those kinds of breeders I was just saying that everyone has to start somewhere. Its all well and good doing your reseeach but a lot of what you read online is complete rubbish. When I first started out I found a lot of stuff online that I would laugh at now I know what its really like, even talking to my local vet was a waste of time. No one was willing to answer my questions because they all thought I was out just to make money out of if. I finally found a lovely lady who helped me a lot. She doesnt breed to show, she breeds so people can have healthy, friendly pet rabbits and without her Id have had to make a lot of mistakes to learn how to do things properly.
> 
> Breeders who breed to 'improve the breed' also make me laugh. Following guidelines and rules set down saying that this breed should look like this and this breed should be no bigger than this. Its all a load of rubbish. A rabbit should be bred from if she is friendly, with a nice personality, no history of any illnesses or dental problems and same for the buck. A rabbit should be bred from just because she has nice markings, or a good mane or is a particular weight. She make look pretty but if she's nasty and aggressive she's going to be the first one to end up in a rescue centre, not the happy, relaxed cross breed.
> 
> Just for the record I dont cross breed my rabbits. I have some stunning breeding adults, in mini lops and lionhead, and I breed all of them because they have wonderfull personalities. All my babies have equally lovely personalities and everyone who has bought a rabbit from me keeps in touch and none ever end up in rescure centre as I always say I will take them back if they can no longer look after them. I have been to breeders before who show their babies and their does are nasty, unsociable and basically fed up of being carted to shows every other week, being prodded and poked for the benefit of adding kudos to the owners bragging ability.


okay i have a question and cant seem to find the answer anywhere.if i have 2 white lionheads will i have all white babies.


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## yasin ahmed

i agree about cross breeding. it just causes unwanted issues, its better to breed purebred


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## Corneal

What equipment do breeders need?


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