# Bernese mountain dog mis-sold



## Roadie985 (Jan 13, 2015)

Hello all. 
I have a question about my pedigree dog, Looking around the internet it turns into a sea of jargon.

I have a 9 month old "bernese mountain dog", which I bought and paid for as a Bernese mountain dog.
Now that she is a bit older my colleagues, other dog professionals and "Joe" in the street recognise her as a collie x bernese or a smaller variety such as entlebucher sennenhund*.
*
I have all of her pedigree certification, family trees and also been advised by a crufts winner and dog show veteran that the family tree and kennel names mentioned in it are really great stock for bernese so, to establish weather mummy dog got caught by something else and puppies got sold as pure or they conned us out of a lot of money.

I'm planning on calling the breeder to ask for a refund full or partial, as far as I'm concerned the puppy I've raised isn't a full bernese mountain dog.

Any advice on how to phrase it or further information to find would be useful.

As it was sold as a puppy obviously no one knows what the dog turns out like until it's grown, I have attached photos of her development from puppy to 9 months. the last picture is her mum dog. In the mu;ltiple bernese photo's she is the smaller one


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2015)

What you would need to do is get a DNA test done using the sire’s DNA and your pup’s to establish parentage. 

The puppy pictures look like a Berner to me, definitely not Entlebucher. And I’m not seeing any Collie in there either. 
Have you addressed any of this with your breeder?


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

Looks like a Burmese Mountain dog to me


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## Roadie985 (Jan 13, 2015)

I wasn't too worried with the puppy photo's especially the breeder ones, at the moment, apart from colouring she looks like a border collie with floppy ears. Sire's DNA I assume is available as he's IKC. 

The dog should conform to standard, not 100% standard as in bought for show, but she's very small and I believe she should be at full mountain dog size without the bulk yet.
Looking into fake pedigrees or mis-registered has been a bit of a minefield.

When I got her she had diarrhoea for a couple of weeks and I was worrying that the breeders hadn't got her vaccinated although I had a vaccination card with her.
They gave me a toy to come with her however it was full of beans and had glass eyes (not safe for puppy).

This isn't my berner but it's one I've handled before and female so that's the size I was expecting, although need to check the age of the dog.


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

Looks like an immature BMD, to me. At 9 months, she's still such a baby.


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

Have you raised any of your concerns with the breeder? I'd talk to them about it first rather than immediately demanding any kind of refund.

I wouldn't expect a dog of that size to be at full height at only 9 months old, I've got whippets (so a medium sized breed) and even they're not at their full adult height by that age.

She could be a slow developer (my youngest is 20 months old and although he's adult height he still looks like a puppy), she could just be a bit on the small or lightly built side, she could be growing at a perfectly normal rate for the breed.

Unless you have any real reason to suspect the breeder is dodgy somehow (other than how your girl is developing) I'd talk to them about your worries first before going in all guns blazing.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2015)

Roadie985 said:


> I believe she should be at full mountain dog size without the bulk yet.


At 9 months? No.... She will continue to grow in size for at least a year, then she will continue to fill out for another year at least.

Is this her now at 9 months? This looks very Berner to me, I wouldn't mistake her for any other breed honestly.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

She looks like a bernese to me, especiallly the puppy and then the photo where she is a bit older on a foreground is it?

When Alfie was a puppy he got a really bad stomach bug that stuck around and so he didn't grow at the rate he should of really, at four months he was way behind any roughs I've seen/know, even at a year he wasn't that big, he did a lot of growing later on and he caught up by about 18 months, it could be her bad stomach has impacted on her growth if it were something like giardia or campylobactor.


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## StrawberryBlonde (May 27, 2015)

Looks Bernese to me, just a bit leggy. Im sure giant breeds can keep growing up til 2 years old. She's beautiful anyway. If you wanted a refund would you still keep her?


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

This is from the following website :-http://www.bmdinfo.org/bernerpedia/Bernese_Mountain_Dog_Puppy_Growth.php

_"A common question new Berner owners ask: "Is my puppy the 'right' size for how old he/she is?

The answer is: size of adult Berners varies; so naturally the size of Berner pups at any given point in their development will vary.

If your puppy looks smaller or larger, is taller or shorter, has heavier or lighter bones or a slighter or bulkier build, a longer or shorter coat than a Berner puppy of the same age you met somewhere - DON'T WORRY. Focus on keeping your puppy happy, healthy, work on training and on providing a nurturing, supportive environment. Your pup will grow up. Genes your pup inherited from his mother and father and ancestors control how your dog will look as an adult. Make the most of the genetic potential your pup inherited. Provide your pup with adequate nutrition and physical conditioning (exercise) during development.









This photo shows the same Berner as a young adult and a mature adult.

Bernese are SLOW MATURING DOGS. Most Berners do not reach their adult height and weight until they are 2 or 3 years old. Berners continue to 'flesh out' and add substance and bulk well into their middle years.

Often during the first year to 18 months of age puppies look gangly, leggy or unbalanced, and gawky. How puppies walk or run during the first year might look mildly uncoordinated - especially when a big growth spurt occurs. It is not uncommon for Berner puppy's skeletons to grow unevenly. A growing puppy's rear end (butt) may be an inch or 2 higher than the front end at certain times during development. NOT TO WORRY! BE PATIENT!!! If you think about it, people look very different at 30 or 40 years of age than they looked when they were 12, 16 or 20."

_


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

At 9 months she will definitelly not look like an adult BMD. Looking at the puppy photos I can't see how that puppy could grow up to look like a BC. Speak to your breeder if you're suspecting something weird and ask for a DNA test.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Looks like a BMD to me?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Looks Bernese to me as well. Remember - she's a giant breed. She'll continue growing (up) until she's at least two, and out for another 6 months or so. And it may be that by sheer providence, you have got a small example of the breed - in the same way that average size human parents can produce very short or very tall children, there is variation in dogs too. Yes - most of them come within the parameters of the breed standard, but there will always be the occasional one which is at one end or another of the bell curve.

I can't see an iota of border collie in her, myself - she looks a Berner through and through. She's a very pretty girl - are you disappointed because you wanted to show or breed her, and she isn't within standard? As you yourself have said, there are no guarantees how a pup will grow up even from the most ideal parents. Her early diarrhoea could just have been the stress of a new home.

If I were you (unless you bought her as a guaranteed show quality puppy) I would just leave well alone and love her to bits. I assume that you don't want rid of her - just a price reduction which may or may not be appropriate. Whether or nor you pursue this is up to you obviously, but you will need DNA tests which are expensive (and as I understand it, not necessarily accurate) and may have to be prepared to go to court, and risk losing (thus throwing good money after bad) or, if the breeder agrees to refund the purchase price, having to give her back.

You need to ask yourself if you are prepared to do that. I wouldn't be.


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

Looks like a BMD to me aswell. 

Just to say though, my westie is KC registered, has great champion lines and was a perfect looking pup which we paid a lot of money for. 

However as got older, his ears never went up like they should and his tail kept growing and growing. All his litter mates are fine, just ours that didn't turn out exactly to standard. 

Not remotely bothered, we love him just the same, despite people constantly asking us what he is crossed with - and then telling us how gorgeous he is while completely ignoring our perfect looking girl westie.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2015)

lostbear said:


> Looks Bernese to me as well. Remember - she's a giant breed. She'll continue growing (up) until she's at least two, and out for another 6 months or so. And it may be that by sheer providence, you have got a small example of the breed - in the same way that average size human parents can produce very short or very tall children, there is variation in dogs too. Yes - most of them come within the parameters of the breed standard, but there will always be the occasional one which is at one end or another of the bell curve.
> 
> I can't see an iota of border collie in her, myself - she looks a Berner through and through. She's a very pretty girl - are you disappointed because you wanted to show or breed her, and she isn't within standard? As you yourself have said, there are no guarantees how a pup will grow up even from the most ideal parents. Her early diarrhoea could just have been the stress of a new home.
> 
> ...


Agree except for the DNA not being accurate. Breed ID DNA tests are notoriously inaccurate, but parentage DNA tests are pretty much infallible as I understand it. In the former you're making an educated guess based off of other samples, in the latter you're matching two sets of DNA, one from the sire and one from the pup. Much more accurate.

But yes, basically, I'm not sure what difference it would make in the long run. I don't see any border collie either, and I searched through all those pictures looking for a dog that looks like a collie - they all look berner to me. Berners are a very slow maturing breed, their bodies change a lot as they grow, as will the coat. And females do tend to be smaller than males.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Agree except for the DNA not being accurate. * Breed ID DNA tests are notoriously inaccurate, but parentage DNA tests are pretty much infallible as I understand it.* In the former you're making an educated guess based off of other samples, in the latter you're matching two sets of DNA, one from the sire and one from the pup. Much more accurate.
> 
> But yes, basically, I'm not sure what difference it would make in the long run. I don't see any border collie either, and I searched through all those pictures looking for a dog that looks like a collie - they all look berner to me. Berners are a very slow maturing breed, their bodies change a lot as they grow, as will the coat. And females do tend to be smaller than males.


Thanks, Ouesi - I hadn't even considered parentage DNA tests. I stand corrected.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Looks Berner to me - at 9 months old they're no where near fully grown. They go up in height until they're hitting a year and continue filling out for another 12-18 months after that. Mine have been males but allowing for the opposite sex size difference, they haven't been far off her size at 9 months. 

And anyway, even if she wasn't a full Bernese, would you love her any less?!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

SixStar said:


> Looks Berner to me - at 9 months old they're no where near fully grown. They go up in height until they're hitting a year and continue filling out for another 12-18 months after that. Mine have been males but allowing for the opposite sex size difference, they haven't been far off her size at 9 months.
> 
> *And anyway, even if she wasn't a full Bernese, would you love her any less?*!


My point exactly. The only reason I can see for querying her parentage is if the OP had particularly intended to breed or show, and then of course, she'd have to be "right" - but for a pet, or agility or obedience work, no problems, and you love your dog whatever, don't you?

Of course we none of us like to think we've been conned, but I really don't think she has been. That pup looks perfect.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Looks like a Bernie to me too. 

Teddy was supposed to be a Pomeranian - we adopted him thinking we were adopting a full bred Pedigree Pomeranian - but he's not. He's a cross of some sort - possibly a German Spitz cross. This only became evident as he started to grow. Do we care? Not at all! He's a lovely dog and we love him very much. We couldn't love him any more than we do if he was a full bred Pom'.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

She looks like a small, young full Bernese to me also - and I have a Bernese, and know a lot of others! In fact, I would go as far as to say she certainly is a full Bernese. I'd put a lot of money on it. I wouldn't trust your average Joe to identify a Bernese anyway (most mistake Maggie for a St Bernard/Newfoundland). It may be however that she is not 'to standard' ('standard' being what a Bernese "should" look like). I have seen a lot of dogs that do not have enough bone and therefore are more narrow than in theory they should be.

Just because in her family tree there is "great stock", doesn't mean the mating will produce 'to standard' pups. It only takes a generation or so for type to be lost. She may well end up stockier anyway though, she's too young to say for sure.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Looks exactly lilke a BMD to me

Giants breeds mature and grow very slowly so at nine months she's nowhere near finished - My own giant dog is about 16 months or so and still appears to be growing


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## Tamberlane (Jul 8, 2014)

Another person here who would place bets on her been a full bernese mountain dog goong by thoses photos.
At 9 months and a giant breed she is still a puppy and has years of growing bulking up and maturing to do. If she had chronic diarrhoea as a puppy this may also slow and potentially stunt her growth.
Do you know anyone with a littermate?If they look significantly larger then her early illness may be an influence. 
I wouldnt be bothering the breeder just yet to be honest.Shes to young to judge her adultsize yet.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I don't see any collie in there at all. 

And I'm pretty used the little blighters.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Roadie985 said:


> I have all of her pedigree certification, family trees and also been advised by a crufts winner and dog show veteran that the family tree and kennel names mentioned in it are really great stock for bernese so, to establish weather mummy dog got caught by something else and puppies got sold as pure or they conned us out of a lot of money.


Gosh, you don't have a lot of faith in the breeder, do you?
Is your dog KC registered, or was it from a breeder who was claiming to be selling this breed, but without KC reg?

There are many of the latter around these days... but to be honest, *most* breeders *selling pure bred and fully KC registered *puppies are not as likely to be pulling the wool over your eyes. Much easier these days to sell puppies of dubious parentage, without registration....

Yeah there might be a few who want to pass off crossbreeds as pure, but they are the least likely to be offering any kind of registration..... as they know they could be pulled up on it later.

I'd also be much happier if the breeder was a member of the Breed Club. Many Breed Clubs have even higher ethics than the KC....and there would be no doubts about parentage there.


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## Roadie985 (Jan 13, 2015)

Merlinsmum, I know it sounds like I don't have a lot of faith in the breeder but from a few simple mistakes to some other bits, I'm a bit peeved that i didn't screenshot the original advert as it said mum had some good hip/elbow scores but that's not on the paperwork I recieved when I picked up puppy.#, but that's the sort of thing you would screenshot if being overly paranoid lol.

I've emailed the breeder to see if she has any photo's of litter mates as I know they kept one due to a deformity which occurred in utero (umbillical cord wrapped round puppies tail so cut it in half, hence pet name "stumpy", there are 4 siblings registered on kennel club for my pup and they told me one of them had mum fall asleep on it so there's an extra record there :S when the numbers don't add up and little things get missed it makes me think.

I love my lil pup to pieces, she's definitely 1/3 of a 3 dog night 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtpQN3R_bdu7u0DOuRydZ5A/videos

my youtube vidoes of her and a former foster dog.

"i used to race greyhounds, but then i got out of shape" haha


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

Puppies die. It happens. It it heart breaking for a breeder, to loose a precious baby. There's nothing dodgy about that.
Your breeder kept the puppy with a defect, exactly what a responsible breeder should do. Kudos to them.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

As everyone else has said, looks like a BMD to me.
Surely you don't expect a 9 month old puppy to be fully grown ,big breeds take much longer to mature.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> Gosh, you don't have a lot of faith in the breeder, do you?
> Is your dog KC registered, or was it from a breeder who was claiming to be selling this breed, but without KC reg?
> 
> There are many of the latter around these days... but to be honest, *most* breeders *selling pure bred and fully KC registered *puppies are not as likely to be pulling the wool over your eyes. Much easier these days to sell puppies of dubious parentage, without registration....
> ...


TBH - most dodgy breeders would just give any crosses (accidental or not ) a stupid name and sell them for top whack as an "opportunity to own a rare. . . . whatever " (Bernollie? Borderese Mountain Dollie?

Losing your reputation for the sake of a few quid is not something good breeders would be prepared to do - and I think OP said it was a reputable breeder.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Find it sad that someone who didn't trust a breeder from day 1 would still buy a puppy, then criticise the breeder. If your dog is IKC registered raise your concerns with them? Although to me every thing you have said wouldn't raise concerns about a breeder as all can happen to the best breeders out there, the fact you have such a low opinion and had such concerns about your breeder but still purchased your puppy is worrying


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Roadie985 said:


> I'm planning on calling the breeder to ask for a refund full or partial, as far as I'm concerned the puppy I've raised isn't a full bernese mountain dog.
> 
> Any advice on how to phrase it or further information to find would be useful.


Basically you are accusing someone of fraud so be very, very sure of your facts first. As 'as far as I'm concerned' isn't a fact. Neither are opinions.

If you believe you have been defrauded then get a DNA test done and prove it. Even looking at other puppies in the litter is unlikely to furnish you with the truth ....genetics is a complicated business and within a litter there can be great variation.

I would suggest that at this stage, asking a breeder for money back ... and you are even contemplating a *full *refund ... may not evoke the response you are looking for. For if they are genuine and the puppy is the correct pedigree then a good breeder may well come and pick the puppy up and do exactly that. For a good breeder may well be concerned that you are not happy with one of their puppies and therefore not able to offer it a good home.

So no trying to get money back on a whim .... if you are really concerned, then get a DNA test and take it from there.

J


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## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

I cant understand why OP would want a refund ? Are you planning on giving the dog back just because of looks ??


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Westie Mum said:


> I cant understand why OP would want a refund ? Are you planning on giving the dog back just because of looks ??


In the original post the OP spoke of asking for a "full or partial refund" because of suspicions that the "dog they'd raised" wasn't a full BMD. They didn't mention surrendering the dog, and as I mentioned in my reply, they'd have to be prepared to do that for a full refund.

I wouldn't, myself. My dogs are like my kids - they may not be what I imagined they would - but they are actually better! I wouldn't change them for the world, or anything about them (actually - that's a fib. I would put a volume control on "yappychops"). But seriously, now can you love and share your life with a dog and then even think about giving it up because it isn't "perfect"?

Hope OP never has a child that is a disappointment in any way.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I'm starting to feel very sorry for this beautiful pup.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

lostbear said:


> I'm starting to feel very sorry for this beautiful pup.


Me too. Not really sure what difference it makes in the grand scheme of things. Does it interfere with the daily enjoyment of your dog OP? Are there things you planned to do with her that you won't be able to if the parentage turned out to be not quite what you thought? or is it about money? You've had her for presumably 7 months now so surely she is such an established part of your life and family that this issue is no longer relevant?


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> You've had her for presumably 7 months now so surely she is such an established part of your life and family that this issue is no longer relevant?


I agree. At least it would be this way for me. Which is why I mentioned beware the breeder taking up the 'offer', handing back the money and taking the pup.

J


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I'll back up what the others say. Be VERY careful what you accuse your breeder of.

Your pup certainly looks full Bernese (and many others who are more knowledge of the breed than I are of this opinion also).

One thing I can assure you of, is that there is absolutely no Border Collie in your pup. I would bet a substantial amount of money on that one. I have Border Collies and train many more, besides my own. Forget the collie thing. 
I don't know you gave that idea but it's total wool-fluff. I'll guess someone mentioned it because she has longish coat and black/tri colouring. (As an aside the placement of her tri markings aren't consistent with Border Collie ones anyway, aside from her head set, build and size being all wrong- she's too big).

Your description of the breeder's so-called suspicious actions, actually sound to me like the sort of things an ethical breeder would do:
- Kept the pup with a deformity
- Registered their pups early (so that the death of the young pup was recorded by the KC).

I'm not sure what your problem is. Your pup is a bit smaller (at 9 months old, and a bitch at that), so you assume something foul is at play.

Your pup looks like a lovely dog. I think you need to be very careful not to accuse your breeder of something that is just totally unfounded. They may regret their homing choice and wonder why you are so preoccupied with a full or partial refund, and whether indeed you share their vision of the pup's best interests.


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## Roadie985 (Jan 13, 2015)

Op plans on using the BMD as a stooge/ socialisation dog, large breed is useful as it is interesting to dogs for training, I was very happy with the breeders and the circumstances.
Puppy was raised by the gentleman as the lady had a cast on her leg, was bought up on a farm so early socialisation with horses, other dog breeds and practise at recall as over a large area.

Some of my points can be mis-read either as very good breeder or poor breeder.

I love the puppy to pieces, but if dna confirms that it is a mis-sale it is best to enquire about partial refund and advise them of parentage.

I'm not accusing anyone of fraud as it is a serious matter to be dealing with but I'm getting my facts straight incase the challenge should be made.

Have put a lot of work into the puppy with regards to training, socialization and play, although it does kind of make me feel something up when professionals and laymen alike ask about my "collie cross" lol

recall is very good  aww


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Roadie985 said:


> Have put a lot of work into the puppy with regards to training, socialization and play, although it does kind of make me feel something up when professionals and laymen alike ask about my "collie cross" lol


Depends how you qualify professionals?
What do they do in a professional capacity that means that they would know?

BTW... that is not meant in an argumentative way. Just asking 

Also... I still maintain, and I spend pretty much most of my time around Border Collies (mine and others), that there is no Border Collie in your dog.

I train dogs- does that make me a professional in your eyes? (Again- not argumentative- just asking)

P.P.S. Be careful with breed DNA tests as they are famously inaccurate. Parentage ones are not and could not be disputed but good luck making that call.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Well, good luck making the phonecall :Nailbiting


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## Roadie985 (Jan 13, 2015)

my professionals are crufts winners and showers, dog handlers and breeders, I myself work in a boarding kennels and have done so for 3 years which is where I became aware of the breed, also studying and working for my AKCI certification.

Am just worrying too much, she's an angel really but i tried to explain that if she's a cross, its like paying for a ferrari and getting a fiat, same thing but not what you paid for lol


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Roadie985 said:


> my professionals are crufts winners


You asked a dog for their take on it too?! 
Definitive diagnosis.

Ok seriously now...



Roadie985 said:


> ...and showers, dog handlers and breeders, I myself work in a boarding kennels and have done so for 3 years which is where I became aware of the breed, also studying and working for my AKCI certification.


That's lovely- but it still means b*gger all. Are those people Bernese people? Do they know the breed well? Do they all own Berneses. And if they do, are they familiar with the lines of your individual dog? Have they ever seen a dog which is not of standard but still full bred? Do they own Border Collies? Have they known of a slow maturing dog?

I think as a bare minimum- you should wait until she is fully grown before you question it. At 9 months she has an awful lot of growing to do. If you question it now, and get it wrong (and at this point, I'd be willing to bet that you have and are worrying overly), you will look awfully silly and no doubt offend your breeder a considerable amount too. No way on earth they'll be selling you another of their puppies, if ever you want one.



Roadie985 said:


> Am just worrying too much, she's an angel really but i tried to explain that if she's a cross, its like paying for a ferrari and getting a fiat, same thing but not what you paid for lol


She's a DOG, not a car. When you buy a car, it comes as it is- ready to go. Puppies, being living breathing creatures, grow and develop.

I'm a bit aghast at you comparing having a cross bred dog (which let's face it- you don't have anyway) to a cheap car!
Crikey...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sorry but I don't understand why you're so concerned your dog is a cross breed. None of the "red flags" you mention would be red flags for me personally, shit happens even to the best breeders. And as others have said, your dog is nowhere near mature at 9 months old so I certainly wouldn't be expecting her to look like a mature Berner. Hell, my Labrador has changed massively since I got him at 9 months old and he's not a giant breed! I wouldn't go accusing the breeder of lying to you without a lot more "proof" they've done exactly that.


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## Roadie985 (Jan 13, 2015)

yea, i'm waiting, but at the moment all the collie people are like that's a collie.
My crufts people know the kennels from most of the parentage and say they're really good kennels, although unsure of angel's kennels. dad's side are champions


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Roadie985 said:


> *Op plans on using the BMD as a stooge/ socialisation dog,* large breed is useful as it is interesting to dogs for training, I was very happy with the breeders and the circumstances.
> Puppy was raised by the gentleman as the lady had a cast on her leg, was bought up on a farm so early socialisation with horses, other dog breeds and practise at recall as over a large area.
> 
> Some of my points can be mis-read either as very good breeder or poor breeder.
> ...


Thats good I thought for one ghastly moment you were thinking of breeding from her and that was why you were getting so uptight about whether or not she is 100% BMD  So you want her as a stooge dog - how does a possible mix of breeds prevent you from doing that? she is already a fair size and still only a baby. Oh and last time I checked cars don't have feelings and form attachments to their families so taking one back or asking for a part refund is not in the same league as doing so with a dog.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

well if your telling people she's nearly full grown at just 9 months then I'm not surprised people are asking if she's crossed with a collie. a lot of people wouldn't even know what a BMD is and would assume because it has white on it's chest as is assumed by many if a dog has even remotely collie like markings that it is a collie cross.

as others have said a general DNA test for breed is not accurate. you need to speak to your pups sires owner and ask for a DNA test to check if the sire stated is your pups dad much like a human paternity test. alternatively if you don't want to go down this root then as you seem to be planning to keep the dog, even if you ask the breeder for some kind of refund. I would wait until your dog is at least two to see what she actually looks like full grown and bulked out a bit before speaking to your pups breeder.

This is a quote from a bernese website ' The Bernese is not considered a giant breed but is quite late maturing. They usually reach their full adult height by about *15 months* but can take a further 2 or 3 years to reach full maturity'


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

Well I was going to day something but to be honest I am totally lost for words poor puppy


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Roadie985 said:


> yea, i'm waiting, but at the moment all the collie people are like that's a collie.


Wow! They must have some funny looking collies compared to the hundred odd I've known.

She has a tri colour coat and a longish one. That's where the comparison ends for me.
How does her current size compare with a full grown BC?

She looks to be full grown BC size to me already, from the pictures you posted. In terms of height of course (as I said she is her bone structure/set is not consistent with Border Collie). At 9 months being that height is about right for a 9 month old Bernese PUPPY!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

My cousin has a collie with the same markings as a Berner, yours looks absolutely nothing like her. I wouldn't be worrying about what other people say, my GSD sized scruffy black and grey mutt with wire hair was mistaken for a bulldog and a greyhound on separate occasions.

And this was my shetland sheepdog according to one so called collie expert who apparently showed border collies and had owned them the usual 40 or so years 


Now okay, Shadow certainly wasn't show quality and may not have even been pure collie (his mum was mated to a collie but also got loose while in season apparently) but sheltie??? Come on!


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Roadie985 said:


> I love the puppy to pieces, but if dna confirms that it is a mis-sale it is best to enquire about partial refund and advise them of parentage.


I really would not waste your money on a DNA test. The puppy in the photos is a full Bernese. The only question here is whether the dog really has the family history/pedigree that you've been told. You could do a DNA test to assess that the sire and dam are infact the dogs you thought they were... but if the question is 'if this pup a full Bernese' - then the answer is a resounding yes. As someone in the breed, I have *zero* doubt.

I'll repeat what I said earlier - I would not trust the average Joe, or even dog 'professionals' (unless they are in the breed themselves), to be able to identify a Bernese. I've had people very involved with dogs professional, think Maggie is a Newfoundland, and Maggie is a very typical Bernese in terms of looks.


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> My cousin has a collie with the same markings as a Berner, yours looks absolutely nothing like her. I wouldn't be worrying about what other people say, my GSD sized scruffy black and grey mutt with wire hair was mistaken for a bulldog and a greyhound on separate occasions.
> 
> And this was my shetland sheepdog according to one so called collie expert who apparently showed border collies and had owned them the usual 40 or so years
> 
> ...


My German shepherd was called a collie cross or a Belgian shepherd just because she was a black sable rather than black tan. 
She was the singly finest example of a German shepherd head I have ever seen on a bitch, not a hint of a "beaky" type muzzle bitches can have that may excuse their mistake

My working stock Golden retrievers are frequently called collies or at best asked what they are crossed with.

Frankly people are muppets who will call anything a collie or cross.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2015)

That pup is not built like a collie, her head looks nothing like a collie, nothing about that sweet pup looks like a collie. Unless color and fur count, and if they do then whippets look like boxers.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Must admit I am a bit baffled by all these so called "collie people" telling you your dog is a collie cross. I can't see a shred of collie in those photos.

Looks just like what I would expect from a lanky, adolescent Bernese Mountain Dog...


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## Roadie985 (Jan 13, 2015)

I'll leave it for a while then, She's still my little girl and 1/3 of a 3 dog night lol

It's just that people make you think. She's absolutely gorgeous markings anyway even down to the "swiss kiss" on back of her head, although the muzzle area is uneven she was bought for size and breed temperament rather than to be best of breed shown.

My little "whole lotta rosie" haha


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2015)

@Roadie985 at the end of the day, the dog you have is the dog you have.

You seem awfully concerned with appearances, size, and what others say. May I humbly suggest to you to just enjoy your puppy for who she is now, and whatever she turns out to be? It's not really fair to her to put these hang-ups on her. She is after all, just a pup, not a car, and her size and markings are really not *who* she is.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> @Roadie985 at the end of the day,* the dog you have is the dog you have.*
> 
> You seem awfully concerned with appearances, size, and what others say. May I humbly suggest to you to just enjoy your puppy for who she is now, and whatever she turns out to be? It's not really fair to her to put these hang-ups on her. She is after all, just a pup, not a car, and her size and markings are really not *who* she is.


Perfectly put!

TBH - I wouldn't be surprised that if a years time you find you have paid for a Fiat and been given a Ferrari, to use you own analogy OP. We all fall more and more in love with our dogs over time and the things that single them out - that would perhaps disqualify them from the show ring - are the things we look at and love the best about them - they make them SPECIAL.

I wonder if one of the problems is that there are so many so-called "designer" dogs about nowadays, that if a pedigree puppy differs from the expected standard at all, people assume it is a cross of some type.

If I were you, I would just enjoy her - she's lovely. If you don't want her, bring her to me - I'll find room somewhere. She's a stunner!


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## Get Bunny Box (Apr 17, 2015)

It's still super cute!!!


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Roadie985 said:


> It's just that people make you think. She's absolutely gorgeous markings anyway even down to the "swiss kiss" on back of her head, although the muzzle area is uneven she was bought for size and breed temperament rather than to be best of breed shown.


If I got a pound for each "expert" that called my Aussie a BC and was convincing me I got conned I would be rich by now. And no, people never made me "think". I knew what I paid my money for and I was well familiarised with the breed and what to expect from a growing pup. I am actually surprised that you are so convinced by the outside opinions. Have you met other BMDs before buying one? Have you learnt anything about the breed because it's surprising that you would expect a large breed puppy to be adult size by 9 months...
Also, how even the muzzle area has nothing to do with her show quality... Not all dogs have even muzzle markings. Breeders don't breed for that...
what is her height at the moment?


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## Roadie985 (Jan 13, 2015)

Where I'm coming from, I can't agree more that she is a lovely dog, however if mis sold as a berner and turns out to be a collie cross that's £1000 that is in dispute.

She's going nowhere as I've put so much work into her but if there's something dodgy going on I'd like to prevent it from happening again either from breeder point of view or from buyer.

sp far only time will tell but I <3 the lil monster anyway lol and for your troubles here's a foster german shepherd in a hoodie lol


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

[QUOTE="Roadie985, post: 1064251813, member: 1421373"*]Op plans on using the BMD as a stooge/ socialisation dog, large breed is useful as it is interesting to dogs for training,* I was very happy with the breeders and the circumstances.
Puppy was raised by the gentleman as the lady had a cast on her leg, was bought up on a farm so early socialisation with horses, other dog breeds and practise at recall as over a large area.

Some of my points can be mis-read either as very good breeder or poor breeder.

I love the puppy to pieces, but if dna confirms that it is a mis-sale it is best to enquire about partial refund and advise them of parentage.

I'm not accusing anyone of fraud as it is a serious matter to be dealing with but I'm getting my facts straight incase the challenge should be made.

Have put a lot of work into the puppy with regards to training, socialization and play, although it does kind of make me feel something up when professionals and laymen alike ask about my "collie cross" lol

recall is very good  aww[/QUOTE]

Both my Shar-Pei and my Miniature Schnauzer are used as "stooge" dogs by our trainer when he does CAT training. Size and breed are inmaterial. To make a good "stooge" the dog must have a high stress level and be "bomb proof" to what is going on around them. Most of the dogs they've worked with have been much larger breeds mainly GSD's but also a Rottie, a Cane Corso an Amstaff, a Cocker Spaniel and an excitable BMD!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Roadie985 said:


> Where I'm coming from, I can't agree more that she is a lovely dog, however if mis sold as a berner and turns out to be a collie cross that's £1000 that is in dispute.
> 
> She's going nowhere as I've put so much work into her but if there's something dodgy going on I'd like to prevent it from happening again either from breeder point of view or from buyer.
> 
> sp far only time will tell but I <3 the lil monster anyway lol and for your troubles here's a foster german shepherd in a hoodie lol


That's what I like to see - a lean, keen, killin' machine (not!)


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

I have to admit that I agree with the OP on one point: paying money for something and getting something totally else. I paid £900 when I was buying an Australian shepherd from he lines I liked. If I found out and it was proved that the breeder lied to me (not talking about some sort of ridiculously unpredictable unfortunate accidental mating that was a secret to everyone involved) I would be furious and would want some sort of partial refund. I wouldn't return the dog just because he is not what I expected but I would want a compensation for the lie. If I lived in Europe and Axel turned out to be a cross, I wouldn't be able to take part in higher league agility competition. I saved my money and paid it to a person who I expected to give me what I was looking for - a dog of a specific breed. I am against buying a crossbreed (for my personal use, people who breed them and use them for some specific purpose...That's their business) and would get one from a shelter so would be furious about paying 900quid and being lied to... 
I have to say though I am really shocked that someone from the show world (i assume it's BMDs crufts winners and experts that say she has collie in her??) would be throwing around such serious accusations about someone from their circle. Saying that a well respected breeder sold a cross as a purebred dog is quite a huge thing. It's not like they are just commenting on her being too small for the standard. I would hate to be that poor breeder...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Well given age and the fact we know sire is IKC registered should not be hard to find the breeder there isn't a huge BMD community over here!

"Crufts" people  seriously....


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Looks pure Bernese to me

This is a photo of a Bernese pup about the same age








I think you need to speak with other BMD people and you'll find they look very lanky for quite a while as pups.

Also don't trust "experts", I've had many people who claim to own and have had springers here in the US but they try to claim my Field bred springer spaniel must be a Brittany because he's so small. 








But actual people who know what springers of the field/working type look like know he's a springer.

Find people who actually know the breed and know what they look like from birth to adulthood.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Roadie985 said:


> Where I'm coming from, I can't agree more that she is a lovely dog, however if mis sold as a berner and *turns out to be a collie cross that's £1000 that is in dispute*.
> 
> She's going nowhere as I've put so much work into her but if there's something dodgy going on I'd like to prevent it from happening again either from breeder point of view or from buyer.
> 
> sp far only time will tell but I <3 the lil monster anyway lol and for your troubles here's a foster german shepherd in a hoodie lol


I really would stop worrying. You haven't been mis-sold a collie cross. Your dog is Berner. A lanky teenage one at that.
Ignore these "collie people"- though I think it's somewhat laughable that they think she is. Armchair 'experts' and 'professionals'. :Hilarious Know their breed so well! Where on earth did you find them?

If you come back here in a years time, with a DNA test for her parentage that proves she is a collie cross, I will eat my hat. And I don't even wear hats, so I'll have to go out and buy one first too.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

shadowmare said:


> I have to say though I am really shocked that someone from the show world (i assume it's BMDs crufts winners and experts that say she has collie in her??) would be throwing around such serious accusations about someone from their circle. Saying that a well respected breeder sold a cross as a purebred dog is quite a huge thing. It's not like they are just commenting on her being too small for the standard. I would hate to be that poor breeder...


I wouldn't be shocked BMD have very small numbers nothing like a bit of back stabbing.... OP needs to be aware just how small because they have made some pretty big accusations on a public forum about a breeder!

If they have concerns they should be contacting the kennel club the dogs are registered with or the breeder.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2015)

lemmsy said:


> Ignore these "collie people"- though I think it's somewhat laughable that they think she is. Armchair 'experts' and 'professionals'. :Hilarious Know their breed so well! Where on earth did you find them?


I'm finding it pretty laughable too. I seriously don't see ANY collie in that pup! It's like the time this crazy woman insisted my merle great dane dogs were dalmatians and that she used to have dalmatians and she would know! It was a very surreal moment.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Definitely Bernese with more room to grow. My Retrievers were still lanky at twelve months and hadn't filled out.

Amber twelve months (one I'm practicing a show stack with)


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

ouesi said:


> I'm finding it pretty laughable too. I seriously don't see ANY collie in that pup! It's like the time this crazy woman insisted my merle great dane dogs were dalmatians and that she used to have dalmatians and she would know! It was a very surreal moment.


Can I join the club too?

My working sheepdog was once said to be a lurcher because he is "too tall" and is skinny (I don't like excess weight on him).

I've never seen a lurcher insist that a grumpy barren ewe goes in her pen and does as she's told.

I must be wrong though because his height is "not of the KC breed standard".


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Cian is a cross coz he has a tail


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lemmsy said:


> I really would stop worrying. You haven't been mis-sold a collie cross. Your dog is Berner. A lanky teenage one at that.
> Ignore these "collie people"- though I think it's somewhat laughable that they think she is. Armchair 'experts' and 'professionals'. :Hilarious Know their breed so well! Where on earth did you find them?
> 
> If you come back here in a years time, with a DNA test for her parentage that proves she is a collie cross, I will eat my hat. And *I don't even wear hats, so I'll have to go out and buy one first too*.


I have loads - you can eat one of mine.

I love my hats and would normally use a pointy stick dipped in TCP to poke out the eyes of anyone who even tried to touch them, , so that is how sure I am too, that this is a Berner to the last eyelash.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Cian is a cross coz he has a tail


Yup, Axel is a BC because Australian shepherds are NBTs and they have pretty button ears. Oh, and he has no copper and that's a definite sign of a BC being involved there!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Wiz201 said:


> Definitely Bernese with more room to grow. My Retrievers were still lanky at twelve months and hadn't filled out.
> 
> Amber twelve months (one I'm practicing a show stack with)


Lpvely dog!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

A little late to this thread but I agree with everyone else in that you have a lovely Berner there, why on earth people think there is collie in there is anyones guess, but they are wrong lol

Considering my Am bull cross has been accused of being a great dane, a husky (because only huskies have blue eyes don't ya know), a pit, a swiss mountain dog and a few others I can;t remember, I would discount what your 'experts' have said.


I do find it sad that money seems to be the only real issue tho, especially as showing or breeding are not your main concerns (it's still a bit offish to me but much more understandable if you had wanted to show)...this is a sentient being here, not a frigging car


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## Ownedbymany (Nov 16, 2014)

The OP has stated the dog will be staying with him. The car comparison probably wasn't the right way to put it but he was trying to make the point about mis-selling and not wanting other to be caught out. 

I'm this case I don't think there is anything to worry about though, the pup looks like a beautiful and healthy bernese with more growing to do


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Thinking about this last night (as you do, lol!) and even my small dog was relatively scrawny at 9 months. He filled out a lot later on. At least no-one tries to tell me what breed Teddy is - though everyone asks! Could make a fortune from him if I knew lol.  *

*(Joking - I would not breed my little unknown heritage rescue dog!! :Angelic)

We have no idea what breeds he is but the person who bought him was definitely 'done!'.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Ownedbymany said:


> The OP has stated the dog will be staying with him. The car comparison probably wasn't the right way to put it but* he was trying to make the point about mis-selling and not wanting other to be caught out. *
> 
> I'm this case I don't think there is anything to worry about though, the pup looks like a beautiful and healthy bernese with more growing to do


I think that's fair enough if you really believe that you have been mis-sold a dog.

My concern is that he seemed very keen to get some or all of his purchase price refunded. If he's going after money, he has to be prepared for the breeder to say "Fair enough. Bring her back and I'll refund your dosh." Personally, I would rather be out a few hundred quid than lose my dog. Even a cross-breed (ooops! sorry! "designer dog") costs silly money these days, so you could argue he's been overcharged by a lot less than he thinks even IF he's right.

I don' think he is. As far as can be told from photos, this looks like a proper Berner. I'm glad he's determined to keep her though.


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## Roadie985 (Jan 13, 2015)

I've started to ask the breeder questions, have asked them to call me on sunday. 
I have questions to ask them about parentage, stud dogs, different email addresses on papers, the dog is lovely, but if it isn't what I've bought and paid for then it is not fit for purpose that I described to the breeder I should get a refund for 850, keep the dog, get a saint, then i should invoice them for the training that I put into the dog as it was mis sold.

Makes me angry as I could have got a puppy farmed or bought from the continent berner for less than half the price

I wanted bernese mountain dog as it is short nosed, fluffy, chubby also big and interesting and people centric (for training/ stooge dogs)
Op bought the dog as a tool for doing a job.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Roadie985 said:


> I've started to ask the breeder questions, have asked them to call me on sunday.
> I have questions to ask them about parentage, stud dogs, different email addresses on papers, the dog is lovely, but if it isn't what I've bought and paid for then it is not fit for purpose that I described to the breeder I should get a refund for 850, keep the dog, get a saint, then i should invoice them for the training that I put into the dog as it was mis sold.
> 
> Makes me angry as I could have got a puppy farmed or bought from the continent berner for less than half the price
> ...


Are you for real? do you actually care about how your pup was bred? get a puppy farmed one my arse :Rage If I were the breeder I would either tell you to take a long walk off a very short pier or give you a refund on the condition you gave the dog back to me as I don't think your attitude paints you in a very good light at all :Grumpy


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Starting to think this is a wind up.


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## Roadie985 (Jan 13, 2015)

of course i care how she was bred, i wanted a bernese mountain dog for work and got a collie cross. there is a massive difference.
I want a playstation 4, here's a playstation 1, it's the same name, does the same thing, but not what you paid for and doesn't do what you need it to.you would be straight to complaints with that.


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## Roadie985 (Jan 13, 2015)

I would give the dog back to breeder for a full refund, or keep the dog for collie cross price so that i could get a real BMD to work with and keep the hybrid as a very cuddly pet.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

But you haven't got a collie cross? Did I miss the post where that was confirmed? You've even had BMD owners come on this thread and confirm your dog looks like a full Bernese. 
Oh God, you would give your dog back to the breeder if you got your money back? I think that says it all. I doubt you'll find anyone sympathetic on here.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Roadie985 said:


> of course i care how she was bred, i wanted a bernese mountain dog for work and got a collie cross. there is a massive difference.
> I want a playstation 4, here's a playstation 1, it's the same name, does the same thing, but not what you paid for and doesn't do what you need it to.you would be straight to complaints with that.


Of course you did, despite everyone on here telling you including Bernese owners and collie owners you know better. You have a living feeling animal there not a bloody play station. Perhaps you should stick to play stations in future  You actually don't deserve the dog so I hope the breeder gets to hear about your thread and takes the dog away from you. Hybrid WTF are you on about?


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## Roadie985 (Jan 13, 2015)

omg i didnt realise this was the peta forum, how do you make a dog drink? put it in a blender


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

No, this is a forum for people who love and value their pets.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Roadie985 said:


> omg i didnt realise this was the peta forum, how do you make a dog drink? put it in a blender


:Hilarious:Hilarious You are so funny.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Roadie985 said:


> I've started to ask the breeder questions, have asked them to call me on sunday.
> I have questions to ask them about parentage, stud dogs, different email addresses on papers, the dog is lovely, but if it isn't what I've bought and paid for then it is not fit for purpose that I described to the breeder I should get a refund for 850, keep the dog, get a saint, then i should invoice them for the training that I put into the dog as it was mis sold.
> 
> Makes me angry as I could have got a puppy farmed or bought from the continent berner for less than half the price
> ...


Right. I'm not usually one for a really abrupt post but to be honest this is getting ridiculous now!!

1. What concrete EVIDENCE do you have that you have a collie cross?

-Breed DNA tests aren't worth the paper they are written on. 
- Your collie people's comments are a joke. 
- The dog isn't near fully grown yet.

The answer is: YOU HAVE NONE.

Some twit, who supposedly is a "collie person", has told you your dog looks like a collie cross. 
There are plenty of armchairs specialists in the world- if you believe everything people say, you'll end up believing the world is flat!

2. People use different email accounts all the time. 
They might have got a new email and forgot to update one of the forms that they gave you.

I have 7 email accounts. (2 personal, 2 academic, 3 for work).

3. How would your dog, if we for one moment indulge in this crazy theory that your dog is a collie cross, not be fit for purpose?

*given that the purpose is to act as a stooge dog.

4. Why should the breeder, if again for a moment we indulge in this crazy theory, pay an invoice for the training you put into the dog?!
If your dog was a cross breed (WHICH IT'S NOT) and you had paid for a full well-bred berner, you would be compensated for that, not for training?
What the hell next?! Do you want them to refund you for all of her food, vaccinations, all vet bills?! For goodness sake!

5. So your dog is just a tool?!

If you want to go ahead and accuse your breeder of something you have ZERO evidence of and severely offend and then piss them off by grabbing for money, then go ahead.

Just don't expect them to take it well, and don't be at all surprised if they try to come and get their dog back because they doubt whether the intentions of the owner of the dog are honest. And you can forget, when you discover that your dog is in fact full bernese, having another puppy from them or possibly even contacts in the breed again.

Maybe this is a wind-up? If so, fair play, you got me. Hook, line and sinker!


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

lemmsy said:


> So your dog is just a tool?!


There's one tool here and it certainly isn't the dog


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

lemmsy said:


> Right. I'm not usually one for a really abrupt post but to be honest this is getting ridiculous now!!
> 
> 1. What concrete EVIDENCE do you have that you have a collie cross?
> 
> ...


Worthy of a rep if only we still could.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Wow....just wow....

I'll be glad when the school holidays are over


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2015)

Roadie985 said:


> I would give the dog back to breeder for a full refund, or keep the dog for collie cross price so that i could get a real BMD to work with and keep the hybrid as a very cuddly pet.


There is NO COLLIE in your dog!!!!!!!!!!!
Nothing about your puppy looks like a collie. NOTHING. I don't know what you think a collie looks like, or what the people you associate thing a collie looks like, but you're all nuts. If that dog looks like a collie, my merle great dane looks like a Doberman.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

This is my collie hybrid. She must be half collie cos she's black and white.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Just for clarity, in case anyone is getting confused 

This is what a tri-colour border collie looks like:









Please note OP- that they come in a variety of colours and shapes- they can be small (sometimes in sports circles, bred to be that small so that they can jump medium height jumps at agility competitions and win all the classes), tall/lanky, with long/medium coat as above or smooth coated.

Now, keep your eyes peeled for the differences! This is what a Bernese Mountain Dog looks like:
















I wouldn't want there to be any, imagined, breed based confusion 

Also, this is a picture of the same dog as an adolescent and then a fully mature adult. 10 points to Gryffindor to anyone who can guess the breed correctly:










It's a minefield out there. They really are SO SIMILAR :Hilarious


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

You are full of crap.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Roadie985 said:


> I would give the dog back to breeder for a full refund, or keep the dog for collie cross price so that i could get a real BMD to work with and keep the hybrid as a very cuddly pet.


You would give the dog back to the breeder if they gave you the money back?!

Absolutely charming. To be honest, if you take this attitude with the breeder, regardless of parentage DNA testing, they'll be taking their dog back anyway.

As a complete aside, have you met many Border Collies?
If indeed you had a Border Collie cross, aside from the physical characteristics (of which, your pup has NONE), you'd know about it behaviourally by now. Trust me, as someone who is an actual 'collie person'.

They are working dogs. Not cuddly pets. (They are partial to a cuddle with their humans, from time to time though, after a good day's work).

Oh sweet, sweet irony.


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

Call me cynical but, given how keen the OP seems to convince themselves that their puppy is not a BMD, I started wondering if something else was going on which made the dog unsuitable for their purposes and they're looking for any excuse to recoup some costs.

Their only other thread doesn't fill me with confidence that this isn't the case..........


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

it's not very often i come on here now as i'm always working! however , if i had a pound for every person that's asked if my akita is a husky or a german shepherd i'd be a very rich woman by now  
on another note i can't really believe this thread and how little attachment someone seems to have for their own beautiful dog , very sad


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

As a side note: I really hope this is a really crappy troll because I don't want to believe that:
a) a reputable breeder would sell a puppy to a guy who can't distinguish between a BMD and a border collie
b) that this individual works with dogs
c) that someone can be so *£$%^&*! (insert any word that you think fits best) and blindly believe some bizarre claims from strangers and believe that he is entitled to get his money back without being able to provide any actual evidence. 

This whole thread can be described as a major first world problem.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Well, well well...so apparently according to the OP's youtube this Berner is/was in training for protection dog/ schutzhund work...there was also a GSD this time last year that apparently had food guarding issues...I do find it interesting that the op seems to only have these issues during school holiday times 

Just in case that I have it wrong...this is a collie cross 

This is a collie cross









And this, also a collie cross









The dog pictured and videoed is NOT a cross of any description, let alone a collie cross!


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Hey PF, I wanted a chair, but people keep telling me that I've been mis-sold a table. Do you think this is a chair? *Posts picture of chair*.

Yes, it's a chair.

I'm going to call the person that sold it to me and get a refund because I wanted a chair.

No need, really, it's definitely a chair, and a lovely chair at that.

I know it's lovely, but I wanted a chair! If you pay for a ferrari, you don't want a polo.

Oh my god, chairs are not cars! Chairs have feelings! Feelings I say!


----------



## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

ouesi said:


> There is NO COLLIE in your dog!!!!!!!!!!!
> Nothing about your puppy looks like a collie. NOTHING. I don't know what you think a collie looks like, or what the people you associate thing a collie looks like, but *you're all nuts*. If that dog looks like a collie, my merle great dane looks like a Doberman.


ROFLOL :Hilarious


----------



## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

Is this for real I wonder the OP wants her money back plus any money they spent on training the dog and still keep the dog well if you go to the breeder with that attitude I would if I were the breeder be taking the dog away from you to start with if I were to refund you You have a full BMD there is no collie in this dog at all the dog is not fully grown or mature yet Be very careful accusing a well known breeder you are open to slander I would think


----------



## MrsGiggles (Feb 12, 2013)

This thread makes me really sad, 
Sad for that poor pup who has bonded to you and your family and on a whim of what someone has said,you will give back for a refund.
Makes me feel sad becouse I would give anything to have my Bernie back and your willing to give yours away and ppl guessed him as a different breed to a Newfie even though you could 100% tell he was,did I listen to them, hell no, I wouldn't have cared if he was a Newfie or a tempremental old goat becouse believe me,they where some of that in him, I loved him and still do


----------



## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

MrsGiggles said:


> This thread makes me really sad,
> Sad for that poor pup who has bonded to you and your family and on a whim of what someone has said,you will give back for a refund.
> Makes me feel sad becouse I would give anything to have my Bernie back and your willing to give yours away and ppl guessed him as a different breed to a Newfie even though you could 100% tell he was,did I listen to them, hell no, I wouldn't have cared if he was a Newfie or a tempremental old goat becouse believe me,they where some of that in him, I loved him and still do


Makes me very sad too MrsGiggles the pup must have bonded with this family and yet they are just willing to give him up or maybe they just want to keep the  pup and get a refund I will never understand people like this


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I would hope you don't ever want another Bernese if you go accusing this breeder of fraud on nothing more than the say so of a few supposed "experts". It's a small world out there and good breeders tend to know each other, especially in the more uncommon breeds. 

I feel sad for the pup personally. And for the breeder if they really are a good breeder who has been misled into thinking you are a good owner. I hope this is just a wind up.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Giant end of a massive bell.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious You are so funny.


Just what I thought - a laugh a minute.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lemmsy said:


> Right. I'm not usually one for a really abrupt post but to be honest this is getting ridiculous now!!
> 
> 1. What concrete EVIDENCE do you have that you have a collie cross?
> 
> ...


For crying out loud! Don't give OP ideas - he'll be claiming for having to hoover the carpet more often next, because her "collie cross" hair is sticking to it!


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

BlueJay said:


> There's one tool here and it certainly isn't the dog


Lemmsy - I wish I could rep you for that!


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

SingingWhippet said:


> Call me cynical but, given how keen the OP seems to convince themselves that their puppy is not a BMD, I started wondering if something else was going on which made the dog unsuitable for their purposes and they're looking for any excuse to recoup some costs.
> 
> Their only other thread doesn't fill me with confidence that this isn't the case..........


This gets more and more disturbing.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

shadowmare said:


> As a side note: I really hope this is a really crappy troll because I don't want to believe that:
> a) a reputable breeder would sell a puppy to a guy who can't distinguish between a BMD and a border collie
> b) that this individual works with dogs
> c) that someone can be so *£$%^&*! (insert any word that you think fits best) and blindly believe some bizarre claims from strangers and believe that he is entitled to get his money back without being able to provide any actual evidence.
> ...


All we need now is for him to drop his i-phone and we'll have an upgrade to disaster


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Alice Childress said:


> Hey PF, I wanted a chair, but people keep telling me that I've been mis-sold a table. Do you think this is a chair? *Posts picture of chair*.
> 
> Yes, it's a chair.
> 
> ...


Look - if you don't want the chair, give it to me. I will assess it and pass it onto a chair rescue. They will confirm whether or not it is a chair or a table - course these days it might even be a chaible - who knows? Have you thought about getting a carpenter in to get a definitive DNA test?


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

http://xkcd.com

Says it all.


----------



## MrsGiggles (Feb 12, 2013)

Maybe I should go back to the breeder where I got Bernie from and ask for a refund, Bernie wasn't how a newfoundland should be, he wasn't the gentle giant, he was aggressive, had a biting history and this was his downfall, would I go back to the breeder and ask for a refund, absolutely not! We loved him, I cherish the times I had him, the good and the bad and I pray the next Newfie we get in the future won't be the same


----------



## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

I hope the breeder offers you your money back, takes the dog and word spreads within the BMD breeder community so you never get your hands on another one! 

You disgust me.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Roadie985 said:


> yea, i'm waiting, *but at the moment all the collie people are like that's a collie.*
> My crufts people know the kennels from most of the parentage and say they're really good kennels, although unsure of angel's kennels. dad's side are champions


Well you've already had at least one experienced collie person on here, lemmsy - there may be more but I haven't read all the posts - who has told you there is definitely no collie in your pup, and now you have another. I'm a collie person who breeds and shows collies; my dogs have won at Crufts and come from lines which in the last two years have won BOB at Crufts. I see hundreds of collies at shows and believe me, there is NO collie in your dog. No collie person I know (and there are not many collie people showing who I don't know) would say that there is any collie in your pup. The head shape, ear set, eyes, colour markings, coat, muzzle - NONE of it in any way says collie. If these "colle people" of yours exist, I suggest they go to Specsavers.

It all comes across as if you're trying to find a reason to get money out of the breeder. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but if I were the breeder I would be giving you a full refund and taking the pup back from you to rehome to someone who is less concerned about money and more concerned about loving their dog.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I think you should just take the dog back to the breeder and buy a stuffed toy!


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Help guys! My friend has bought a rottweiler, but I just can't stop seeing a dobe in him! Also, some people outside of Tesco said "What a beautiful doberman you have" and a few Crufts winners also think he has a dobe in him! He's got a pedigree and all, but I think my friend needs to get her money back because she got duped!
This is the dobe cross I'm talking about:


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

shadowmare said:


> Help guys! My friend has bought a rottweiler, but I just can't stop seeing a dobe in him! Also, some people outside of Tesco said "What a beautiful doberman you have" and a few Crufts winners also think he has a dobe in him! He's got a pedigree and all, but I think my friend needs to get her money back because she got duped!
> This is the dobe cross I'm talking about:


Must be a cross its got no tail, I know we are "Crufts" people!!!!!

Oddly OP has been on a BMD forum and no one at any stage said she was a cross!!! Odd that? Maybe they hadn't been to Crufts so wouldn't know?


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I see your Dobermann, and raise you a Basenji..

IMG_0982_1 by Ned Ster, on Flickr

No wait.....he was a Ridgeback first...


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

shadowmare said:


> Help guys! My friend has bought a rottweiler, but I just can't stop seeing a dobe in him! Also, some people outside of Tesco said "What a beautiful doberman you have" and a few Crufts winners also think he has a dobe in him! He's got a pedigree and all, but I think my friend needs to get her money back because she got duped!
> This is the dobe cross I'm talking about:


That rottie looks more like a doberman than the OP's bernese looks like a collie!


----------



## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

What is a Stooge dog?


----------



## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Got the opposite problem here! Joe Public think my dog is a pedigree collie. I can explain until I'm blue in the face that she's a cross breed and dad was a collie but she came out of a bitch that definitely wasn't a collie, but nope, she's apparently a pedigree!

What do I know?! Must have had myself a bargain (interestingly, she also happens to be a very good stooge dog!)


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Little P said:


> Got the opposite problem here! Joe Public think my dog is a pedigree collie. I can explain until I'm blue in the face that she's a cross breed and came out of a bitch that definitely wasn't a collie, but nope, she's apparently a pedigree!
> 
> What do I know?! Must have had myself a bargain (interestingly, she also happens to be a very good stooge dog!)
> 
> View attachment 239748


What is she then?

Looks a little Lab like in the face.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Little P said:


> Got the opposite problem here! Joe Public think my dog is a pedigree collie. I can explain until I'm blue in the face that she's a cross breed and dad was a collie but she came out of a bitch that definitely wasn't a collie, but nope, she's apparently a pedigree!
> 
> What do I know?! Must have had myself a bargain (interestingly, she also happens to be a very good stooge dog!)
> 
> View attachment 239748


See - you paid for a Fiat and got a Ferrari


----------



## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Nonnie said:


> What is she then?
> 
> Looks a little Lab like in the face.


Looks like a collie, behaves 100% springer spaniel (but we won't hold that against her!)

She's an original Sprollie - from back in the days where accidental cross breeds were given away for free! Mum was a springer spaniel, dad was border collie from the next farm over.



















People were convinced my Jack Russell had EBT in him when he was younger. I can kind of see why looking back at the photos (short haired, predominantly white, sticky up ears, pretty butch looking) but it's still a bit random!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

shirleystarr said:


> What is a Stooge dog?


Its usually a bomb proof non reactive dog that is used in a training situation by a behaviourist or trainer to work a reactive dog closer and closer to and to assess its response. Thats a very simple explanation but can't think how else to word it.


----------



## Guest (Aug 1, 2015)

Nonnie said:


> I see your Dobermann, and raise you a Basenji..
> 
> IMG_0982_1 by Ned Ster, on Flickr
> 
> No wait.....he was a Ridgeback first...


I see your Basenji and raise you a Dalmatian


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Its usually a bomb proof non reactive dog that is used in a training situation by a behaviourist or trainer to work a reactive dog closer and closer to and to assess its response. Thats a very simple explanation but can't think how else to word it.


My two "stooge" dogs with their trainer









And this is Cody, the Amstaff they'd been working with.


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

Nonnie said:


> I see your Dobermann, and raise you a Basenji..


Snap, I also (apparently) had a basenji:










At least that was on the days when he wasn't a pharaoh hound. Or those when he was a greyhound........


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I see your Basenji and raise you a Dalmatian


Dalmation? Seriously?

One of the most recognisable breeds.


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Its usually a bomb proof non reactive dog that is used in a training situation by a behaviourist or trainer to work a reactive dog closer and closer to and to assess its response. Thats a very simple explanation but can't think how else to word it.


Oh thanks for letting me know


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

SingingWhippet said:


> Snap, I also (apparently) had a basenji:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So big ears, wrinkles and a red coat are all the credentials a dog needs to have to be a Basenji? Could be onto a winner here.


----------



## Guest (Aug 1, 2015)

Nonnie said:


> Dalmation? Seriously?
> 
> One of the most recognisable breeds.


Seriously. It was one of the most surreal conversations...
The woman was arguing with me that my dog WAS a dalmatian, but at the same time telling me she was not a proper dalmatian since her base coat was grey not white. Never mind that those are splotches, not circles, and her entire structure, head shape, and SIZE... I'm like "yeah, she's not a proper dalmatian because she's NOT A DALMATIAN!"


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I see your Basenji and raise you a Dalmatian


I see your dalmation and raise you a saluki


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I see your Basenji and raise you a Dalmatian


Congratulations! I think you won the internet! :Woot


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

Hanwombat said:


> I see your dalmation and raise you a saluki
> I see Smooth Collie


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Nonnie said:


> So big ears, wrinkles and a red coat are all the credentials a dog needs to have to be a Basenji? Could be onto a winner here.


I'm currently working towards breeding "rare" long-haired basenjis. What makes mine extra special is that they can bark!


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

Made a proper mess of above post meant to say I see Smooth Collie


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

What do you make of this boy? Went to rainbow bridge long ago

8 weeks


8months


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I'm working closely with British Telecom on a new breed of "designer dogs" who'll be known as a Pei-Phone


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

@cava14 una 
Pure Karelian bear dog.


----------



## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

bogdog said:


> @cava14 una
> Pure Karelian bear dog.


Holy Moses never seen one of them before but he could be mistaken for one:Jawdrop


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

cava14 una said:


> What do you make of this boy? Went to rainbow bridge long ago
> 
> 8 weeks
> 
> ...


Cocker spaniel


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

cava14 una said:


> Made a proper mess of above post meant to say I see Smooth Collie


Smooth indeed!  I usually get saluki or lurcher


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I see your Basenji and raise you a Dalmatian


When I saw your dalmation I thought - "Hang on - I've seen one of those before" and here he is.

I asked Little Norm at the Bowls club what he thought, and he confirmed that the dog on the left, which my daughter was mis-sold as a great dane, is in fact, a dalmation (Little Norm knows about these things - he saw a Crufts agility session on tv once). In order to make sure that I wasn't going to sue the breeder for nothing, I consulted our local Shaman, Billy Twelve-Whippets. For a pint of "Dog" aka "Newkie Broon", a local beverage which assists people in going into a trance-like state in order to reach "beyond the veil" he was prepared to give us the benefit of his experience. He slurps the stuff and zones out, during which time his spirit animal (a ferret) communes with the spirit animal of the dog in question (Loki's is apparently a numbat). These confirmed that Loki was indeed a dalmation!

Furthermore (is there no end to the wisdom of boring old f*rts you meet at random places) according to Little Norm he is a particularly rare and valuable "Double Blue" which is the technical term for a dog with blue spots on a blue background.

Alas, Loki's test-iciles have been in heaven for quite a long time now, otherwise we could have named out own four-figure stud fee!

I mentioned to my daughter that she could claim back the money she paid, training fees, vet's bills, food costs, and for his George the Hippo that he likes to sleep with.

Unfortunately, for some reason she wants to keep the dog. There's just no understanding some people.

EDIT: The dog on the right is our pomeranian


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I too have a collie cross - he's black and white so no other conclusion










Must be crossed with a Bernese though considering the size

I must ask for a refund sometime or other


----------



## Tazer (Jan 1, 2015)

Well I apparently own a Leon Berger, short coat Afghan, saint Bernard x gsd x husky, Akita, as a young puppy he was a Keeshond, should have had a refund several times over at this rate.


----------



## Tazer (Jan 1, 2015)

And not to forget my pure breed fcr, who is actually a gsd cross.


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Nonnie said:


> Dalmation? Seriously?
> 
> One of the most recognisable breeds.


Axel got called a long coated dalmatian once


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

'German shepherd'- apparently I should have taped her ears up


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I see all your beautiful dogs and raise you one English Bulldog.


I kid you not, someone actually thought my large, scruffy mutt was a Bulldog. He was also mistaken for a Greyhound but that group were all drunk and we were getting off the bus at the Greyhound stadium so I think they can be forgiven. Especially as they wanted to bet on him lol.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> 'German shepherd'- apparently I should have taped her ears up


 . . . and her hips down . . .


----------



## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

English bull terrier. Apparently 

Must be a rare teacup EBT as that's a standard size tennis ball...


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Little P said:


> English bull terrier. Apparently
> 
> Must be a rare teacup EBT as that's a standard size tennis ball...
> 
> View attachment 239763


 They are much sought after.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Little P said:


> English bull terrier. Apparently
> 
> Must be a rare teacup EBT as that's a standard size tennis ball...
> 
> View attachment 239763


You had me at teacup.

*throws money in Little P's general direction*


----------



## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Nonnie said:


> You had me at teacup.
> 
> *throws money in Little P's general direction*


Would you like him as a stud? He's had a vet check and they say he's healthy so he'll be fine to breed from


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I have received sage advice in my Vet's waiting room once.

In with my Crufts prizewinning PRT, Skipper, I was opposite a little, old fella with a dog that never shut it's mouth for twenty minutes. He was oblivious to the racket, whilst everyone else was blinking obsessively and massaging their temples.

Above the racket, the old man shouted "What breed is that"? I said, "He's a Parson Russell".

He sidled over, peered owlishly at Skipper, (a perilous business as Skipper didn't appreciate strange faces inches from his), and said, "Nay luv. Been around dogs all me life and I'm telling YOU, that's some kind of Terrier".


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Little P said:


> English bull terrier. Apparently
> 
> Must be a rare teacup EBT as that's a standard size tennis ball...
> 
> View attachment 239763


I would like to use him with my Rosie.

She too has been to the vet recently. She wagged her tail and jumped up at the vet, so she has been given a full bill of health and is good to go to produce puppies.


----------



## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Sweety said:


> I would like to use him with my Rosie.
> 
> She too has been to the vet recently. She wagged her tail and jumped up at the vet, so she has been given a full bill of health and is good to go to produce puppies.


Excellent, the more the merrier! I'd love to give him the opportunity to experience fatherhood. He might be older (he's coming up to 13) but that just means that there's been plenty of time for any inherited diseases to show themselves, and there's no sign of anything like that. He's not very *ahem* "experienced with the ladies", but I'm sure if we give them some privacy and leave them to it, they'll figure it out for themselves.

Oh! I forgot to ask, what breed is Rosie? He's a teacup EBT so there shouldn't be any problems with him fathering pups too big for her to cope with. I wonder if we could make a cool name for the pups?

*disclaimer: my tongue is very firmly in my cheek! The teacup EBT was castrated before he even knew what to do with them!


----------



## Papirats (Mar 26, 2014)

Mistaking breed is one thing.. but do any of you regularly walk two foxes?


----------



## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

Papirats said:


> Mistaking breed is one thing.. but do any of you regularly walk two foxes?


Not foxes but a Collie X.


----------



## ladyisla (Apr 19, 2014)

Someone asked me in a carpark when Heidi's westie curls would come in... and another lady said to my friend with an adult Westie "aw wow, a Samoyed puppy"


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Papirats said:


> Mistaking breed is one thing.. but do any of you regularly walk two foxes?


You better pray they keep the hunting ban.


----------



## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Apparently I've got a husky


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Left - A Staffy (yep had two people call her that) with apparently a bit of St Bernard.
Right - quite clearly a Bernese Mountain Dog.

Short answer some people are idiots....


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Little P said:


> Excellent, the more the merrier! I'd love to give him the opportunity to experience fatherhood. He might be older (he's coming up to 13) but that just means that there's been plenty of time for any inherited diseases to show themselves, and there's no sign of anything like that. He's not very *ahem* "experienced with the ladies", but I'm sure if we give them some privacy and leave them to it, they'll figure it out for themselves.
> 
> Oh! I forgot to ask, what breed is Rosie? He's a teacup EBT so there shouldn't be any problems with him fathering pups too big for her to cope with. I wonder if we could make a cool name for the pups?
> 
> *disclaimer: my tongue is very firmly in my cheek! The teacup EBT was castrated before he even knew what to do with them!


Rosie is a Jack Russell Terrier and not just any old Jack Russell Terrier. She has excelled in the Showring, being awarded the highly coveted 'Dog Least Likely to Bite the Judge' award at our local Exemption Show.

She and your boy could produce something outstanding. Maybe Miniature English Bulljack Terriers?

Does a price tag of about £1500 per pup sound reasonable?

N.B. I'm fairly sure Rosie has no STDs, but what the heck.


----------



## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Rosie is a Jack Russell Terrier and *not just any old Jack Russell Terrier.* She has excelled in the Showring, being awarded the highly coveted 'Dog Least Likely to Bite the Judge' award at our local Exemption Show.
> 
> She and your boy could produce something outstanding. Maybe Miniature English Bulljack Terriers?
> 
> ...


Do you have pedigree papers for her?


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Born to Boogie said:


> Not foxes but a Collie X.
> View attachment 239767


Collie cross? Rubbish - that's a Bernese Mountain Dog


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Apollo2012 said:


> Apparently I've got a husky
> 
> View attachment 239769


Suck a coff sweet - that'll sort it!


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Papirats said:


> Mistaking breed is one thing.. but do any of you regularly walk two foxes?


WOW! Corgi tails are AMAZING!!!!!


----------



## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

This is my little flatcoat retriever, according to someone we met on a walk! She's of the teacup variety...


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Little P said:


> Do you have pedigree papers for her?


No, but I could soon make a pedigree.

We don't need to worry about small details.

We'll advertise them on Gumtree and go to Florida with the proceeds.


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

This is my smooth haired border collie, or cross breed as someone said. I was a little bit offended! (He's covered in those little green seeds here)


----------



## Papirats (Mar 26, 2014)

lostbear said:


> WOW! Corgi tails are AMAZING!!!!!


Oh yes, but mine must be Cardis because "Pems are born without tails", don'tcha know..


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Papirats said:


> Oh yes, but mine must be Cardis because "Pems are born without tails", don'tcha know..


I understand that they developed the Pembroke breed by crossing Cardigans with hamsters (for colour, tail-shortiness, and inclination to bite anyone who poked a finger into them). Is that right?


----------



## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Sweety said:


> No, but I could soon make a pedigree.
> 
> We don't need to worry about small details.
> 
> We'll advertise them on Gumtree and go to Florida with the proceeds.


You're on!

If we're really lucky, they may produce a few blue pups which we could get more for and we can upgrade to first class!


----------



## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

lostbear said:


> I understand that they developed the Pembroke breed by crossing Cardigans with hamsters (for colour, tail-shortiness, and inclination to bite anyone who poked a finger into them). Is that right?


I would say, that depends on where you poke the finger


----------



## Papirats (Mar 26, 2014)

lostbear said:


> I understand that they developed the Pembroke breed by crossing Cardigans with hamsters (for colour, tail-shortiness, and inclination to bite anyone who poked a finger into them). Is that right?


I don't know which "Corgi people" you've been speaking to but that is incorrect.

They were actually crossed with twinkies, the American snack food, for colour and creamy filling:


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Little P said:


> You're on!
> 
> If we're really lucky, they may produce a few blue pups which we could get more for and we can upgrade to first class!


 I have some blue paint you can have. You'll need to get yourself a blowtorch to take the old colour off though, 'cos ours is at the back of the shed and there are wasps in there.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Papirats said:


> I don't know which "Corgi people" you've been speaking to but that is incorrect.
> 
> They were actually crossed with twinkies, the American snack food, for colour and creamy filling:


So_ that's_ what the inside of a corgi looks like . . . . No wonder the Queen likes them.

So - do chocolate labradors have a minty fondant centre, then?


----------



## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

lostbear said:


> I have some blue paint you can have. You'll need to get yourself a blowtorch to take the old colour off though, 'cos ours is at the back of the shed and there are wasps in there.


Are you sure they're wasps? The breeder may have seen you coming and sold you a bee crossbreed. I'd ask for a partial refund if I were you.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Somebody once asked me if Jed was a Bernese Mountain Dog. Apparently her friend bred them and he looked just like one. As you can see, he's a collie:


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

cava14 una said:


> What do you make of this boy? Went to rainbow bridge long ago
> 
> 8 weeks
> 
> ...


Oh.... most definitely a Bernese Mountain Dog! Unmistakable!

So distinctive with those big blue eyes!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Little P said:


> Are you sure they're wasps? The breeder may have seen you coming and sold you a bee crossbreed. I'd ask for a partial refund if I were you.


I have to confess - I am a little naive when it comes to hymenoptera - I just took the breeder's word for it.

I have 15,000 pedigrees - surely that means everything's okay? I really didn't want bees - they have so many health problems . . . .


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> This is my smooth haired border collie, or cross breed as someone said. I was a little bit offended! (He's covered in those little green seeds here)


Keepyervoicedown! Are you trying to bankrupt us all?

Those aren't seeds, the dogs are very rare and highly-sought-after JADE ROANS.

(Amateur


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

shirleystarr said:


> Looks like a Burmese Mountain dog to me


Bernese.

They come from Switzerland, not Burma.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> Bernese.
> 
> They come from Switzerland, not Burma.


That's the common ones - the rare, much sought-after ones come from Burma and have a much higher price tag.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I have just remembered another....
Would you please have a warm welcome to my Swiss mountain dog


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Ladies and gentlemen... I hear you all and I raise you:

One lurcher cross ("he's too big to be full collie- must be crossed with lurcher or something")



One collie x weimaraner ("collies are black and white")


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> I have just remembered another....
> Would you please have a warm welcome to my Swiss mountain dog


Is that a real Swiss Mountain he is looking magnificent on?


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

lostbear said:


> That's the common ones - the rare, much sought-after ones come from Burma and have a much higher price tag.


Unless it's a rare dog/cat hybrid?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lemmsy said:


> Ladies and gentlemen... I hear you all and I raise you:
> 
> One lurcher cross ("he's too big to be full collie- must be crossed with lurcher or something")
> 
> ...


Of course collies are black and white. It's the law. You wouldn't want to break the law, would you?

(Strangely, I couldn't view your photos on your post, but when I pressed reply to let you know the problem - there they were! Ain't technology amazing?!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Little P said:


> Unless it's a rare dog/cat hybrid?


Aaaah! The highly desirable Burmese Mountain Cog . . .


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

lostbear said:


> Is that a real Swiss Mountain he is looking magnificent on?


More like a Suffolk stump


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

lostbear said:


> Of course collies are black and white. It's the law. You wouldn't want to break the law, would you?
> 
> (Strangely, I couldn't view your photos on your post, but when I pressed reply to let you know the problem - there they were! Ain't technology amazing?!


I know!
Ones with different colours, like ginger eyebrows, are poorly bred, don't ya know?!

Ahhh probably because I changed my lurcher cross's picture. I wanted one with him looking especially tall and lurcher like 

As an aside, I was also told that my working sheepdog, sorry, lurcher cross, would be no good as a sheepdog, because (apart from the very obvious lurcher issue), he has one ear up and one tipped ear, and that's no good in a good working sheepdog. He'll never work sheep well. (Maybe the sheep view the ear issue as a sign of indecisiveness?!)

My "lurcher cross" never got the memo


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

lostbear said:


> Aaaah! The highly desirable Burmese Mountain Cog . . .


That's the one I was thinking of


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Wasps? A can of hairspray will calm those little feckers down.

Anyway, Rosie catches them, gets stung, goes into a meltdown and learns nothing. She goes and catches another one.

Truly, a lesson to us all. 

Forge ahead and do it, even when it doesn't make an ounce of sense and is outstandingly stupid and painful.

I do try to follow her example, which could explain a lot. :Wideyed


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> I have just remembered another....
> Would you please have a warm welcome to my Swiss mountain dog


You should go back to the breeder and beat your money out of her. That is no mountain dog. That is clearly a log dog.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Well I've got a schauzer and a tibeten terrier (apparently). And boy do people get maaad when you try to use the word 'mongrel' to describe your own dogs...


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Little P said:


> That's the one I was thinking of
> View attachment 239796


My God! (*_gasps admiringly_*)

. . . . . . . you need never work again (*_heavy breathing*_)

Do you have a teacup version in a Rare Colour as well? Nonnie will give you her house . . .


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> More like a Suffolk stump


No - I saw a photo of some Swiss mountains on a postcard once - there's definitely Swiss mountain in there - maybe crossed with destroyed Amazonian rainforest?


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

lostbear said:


> So - do chocolate labradors have a minty fondant centre, then?


 I love it ...now that would make the perfect hybrid. Along with the Twinkie x Corgi.

I'm afraid non of mine are even remotely related to Burnese Mountain Dogs or even Swiss Mountain Dogs more the shame .... but I have enjoyed looking at all the lovely dogs on this thread whatever their parentage!

J


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I love it ...now that would make the perfect hybrid. Along with the Twinkie x Corgi.
> 
> I'm afraid non of mine are even remotely related to Burnese Mountain Dogs or even Swiss Mountain Dogs more the shame .... but I have enjoyed looking at all the lovely dogs on this thread whatever their parentage!
> 
> J


It _did_ end up as a lovely thread didn't it? Wonder what happened to the OP - and their beautiful pup?


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

lostbear said:


> It _did_ end up as a lovely thread didn't it? Wonder what happened to the OP - and their beautiful pup?


The OP probably went mad with the constant pinging of email notifications of new replies to their thread :Smuggrin


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

That's my black lab...he's clearly a really rare Black and Tan one, so I'm going to breed him with my friend's husky.










His elbow dysplasia and her luxating patella will automatically be cancelled out by crossing them eh? I'm thinking they'll be called tanhuskadors.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

tabulahrasa said:


> His elbow dysplasia and her luxating patella will automatically be cancelled out by crossing them eh? I'm thinking they'll be called tanhuskadors.


Definitely the way to go https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

If Wikipedia agrees, it must be a good idea


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Thai Ridgeback.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

tabulahrasa said:


> That's my black lab...he's clearly a really rare Black and Tan one, so I'm going to breed him with my friend's husky.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's wonderful that you ALWAYS get the "best of both breeds" when you cross two dogs, isn't it?

ALways manages to cancel out any health problems or temperament issues.

Genetics! Brilliant!!!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I raise you a miniature Sheltie or a fat cat...









...and a German Shepherd :Bear


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Brilliant. Next time someone tells me that collies are black and white and asks what Elles is crossed with I have my answer. A Bernese. 

Here you can see the Mountain side.










And here, the Sea side


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Pfft I've got a super rare brindle fox one of a kind, we could make a fortune. 








A woman genuinely threatened to report my "fox". Even if he was they're perfectly legal pets.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

My 20 month old Doberman puppy.

I've tried watering him but he doesn't seem to want to grow.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

@MrRustyRead, bathe him in tomato grower. That's what worked with my teacup Chihuahua/Dachshund.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

MrRustyRead said:


> My 20 month old Doberman puppy.
> 
> I've tried watering him but he doesn't seem to want to grow.
> View attachment 240154


Don't worry about that, you've clearly got a super rare teacup dobermann there. Think of the money you can make pimping him out to any passing bitch .


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## tantrumbean (Aug 23, 2011)

Elliot in my profile picture is apparently a schnauzer (that's on the days when he isn't a lurcher or a spaniel). The man down the road suggested breeding him with his King Cavalier - he suggested charging £250 for the puppies. Surely we should be able to ask more for the results of a miracle mating between two males? Or do you think I should mate him with my GSD? (I only recently found out he is a GSD, I actually thought he was sable collie, but apparently he is either a GSD or a even wolf, because collies don't come in sable). The newly discovered GSD is male as well, so that should make the puppies more rare.....if he turned out to be a wolf rather than a GSD, we could probably make a fortune!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

MrRustyRead said:


> My 20 month old Doberman puppy.
> 
> I've tried watering him but he doesn't seem to want to grow.
> View attachment 240154


Have you tried fertiliser? Most dogs are self-manuring given the opportunity, but maybe yours just needs a boost.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Don't worry about that, you've clearly got a super rare teacup dobermann there. Think of the money you can make pimping him out to any passing bitch .


not with his dodgy knees! ha



lostbear said:


> Have you tried fertiliser? Most dogs are self-manuring given the opportunity, but maybe yours just needs a boost.


I was going to try miracle grow but then i was worried he would turn into a great dane ha


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Walking Rosie one day, I saw a man walking towards me who I know.

I only know him because he used to keep ferrets which escaped on a regular basis. One of them visited the local corner shop one day, helped himself to a family size bag of crisps and terrorised three old ladies and the shopkeeper for quite some time. Eventually, he became bored, asked to be let out and was last seen headed for the Barber Shop.

Anyhoo, as this man got up to me, Rosie went into her usual tail wagging and smiling broadly. "Friendly little dog", he said, "What is it"? "A Jack Russell" I said.

He said "Nawwww" and started shaking his head from side to side in a wider and wider motion until he appeared to lull himself into some sort of a trance. He stood there for quite some time with his eyes closed and, just when I was beginning to think he'd had a stroke, he appeared to remember he had important information to impart.

He told me that Rosie couldn't be a Jack Russell, ALL Jack Russells are snappy little buggers. "This un must be summat else".


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

MrRustyRead said:


> not with his dodgy knees! ha
> 
> I was going to try miracle grow but then i was worried he would turn into a great dane ha


Well crossbreeding magically fixes that duh.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> Well crossbreeding magically fixes that duh.


It does, that's exactly how hybrid vigour works...:Smuggrin


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

MrRustyRead said:


> not with his dodgy knees! ha
> 
> I was going to try miracle grow but then i was worried he would turn into a great dane ha


There appear to be fewer than 7 great danes in the world. Most of the dogs passed off as great danes are, in fact, unusually coloured or badly mis-marked dalmations. You have little to worry about


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

My Dalmation, Great Dane and Labrrador


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

Ah well, I have a fox who does obedience and trick training



and a bernese mountain dog x who does agility (it was a fun show and the pink rosettes owe something to being able to use a toy although the blue one was a solo effort)


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

CheddarS said:


> My Dalmation, Great Dane and Labrrador


 Very economical dog ownership. I approve (*nods sagely*)


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Someone asked today whether Cash was a Bernese. Not totally random I guess as he does look mountain dog(ish).


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

Sweety said:


> I only know him because he used to keep ferrets which escaped on a regular basis. One of them visited the local corner shop one day, helped himself to a family size bag of crisps and terrorised three old ladies and the shopkeeper for quite some time. Eventually, he became bored, asked to be let out and was last seen headed for the Barber Shop.


That made me laugh:Joyful


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Someone asked today whether Cash was a Bernese. Not totally random I guess as he does look mountain dog(ish).


If by that you mean a mountain-sized dog, it looks as though you could be right! LOL


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## cavmad (Jan 27, 2009)

This is my rottie she was well bred everyone thought she was a setter cross


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

cavmad said:


> This is my rottie she was well bred everyone thought she was a setter cross


I love long-haired rotties. A man I occasionally meet on dog walks has one, plus his litter brother (smooth-coated). Until I met them I hadn't realised that rottweilers came in a "fluffy" version. He is like a cuddly bear.


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## S.crane (Oct 19, 2015)

Accidental post sorry x


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

:Jawdrop

I know above post was an oops post, but it just goes and shows how "out of it" I was over the summer months as I had no idea this thread existed at all!

So, in keeping with the thread topic, Max is a Springer x, and I know he is because someone who HAD a Springer and is therefore an expert in the breed, once told me he looked exactly like her dog - it's in the tail, apparently! Only SS have Max's bushy tail. 

That's when he's not a husky, a GSD, a collie, or a wolf, of course! Gotta love a dog that changes breeds/species with the day of the week ... Unless he just helps out the local wolf community when they're short staffed...  I must ask him about that! 

And Milly is definitely a greyhoundwhippetskinnyfoxdog-type-lurcher. :Smug :Hilarious


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> :Jawdrop
> 
> I know above post was an oops post, but it just goes and shows how "out of it" I was over the summer months as I had no idea this thread existed at all!
> 
> ...


I'd forgotten about this thread - it was a lot of fun!

Very impressed with your versatile "Dog for All Seasons" (Soon to be a major film?).


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I wonder if they did confront the breeder :Blackeye.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

What an enjoyable thread, glad it got an accidental bump because I have enjoyed a coffee and an amusing read


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

lostbear said:


> I'd forgotten about this thread - it was a lot of fun!
> 
> Very impressed with your versatile "Dog for All Seasons" (Soon to be a major film?).


Now THERE'S an idea ... Start Max on a sudden, major canine actor career at age 12, soon after start a massive breeding regime between him and Milly and sell the pups for Millions!!!!

I mean, who _wouldn't_ want a greyhuscolfoxwhipwolf from neutered film stock (SO much more reputable than mere show stock  )


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Gemmaa said:


> I wonder if they did confront the breeder :Blackeye.


I wonder . . .

They never came back which suggests that:

a) they didn't

b) they did - and got kicked into touch

c) they thought we were a sarcastic waste of skin and air and stormed of inna huff!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> Now THERE'S an idea ... Start Max on a sudden, major canine actor career at age 12, soon after start a massive breeding regime between him and Milly and sell the pups for Millions!!!!
> 
> *I mean, who wouldn't want a greyhuscolfoxwhipwolf from neutered film stock *(SO much more reputable than mere show stock  )


Shuttup and just take my money!!!!!!!!!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Picklelily said:


> What an enjoyable thread, glad it got an accidental bump because I have enjoyed a coffee and an amusing read


Me, too! I'd forgotten all about it - it's like a little Indian Summer of threads - so much joy in one little query.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Picklelily said:


> What an enjoyable thread, glad it got an accidental bump because I have enjoyed a coffee and an amusing read


I started reading this one in bed this morning, giggling away, and ended up getting up rather late, but who cares a great read and a bit of light relief.


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## Bluefluffybirmans (Jun 9, 2014)

Had a giggle at this, missed it last time. Wonder what happened to the dog?
I was sold this as a pedigree Birman mountain dog, but I think it's a husky cross because of the blue eyes?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Bluefluffybirmans said:


> Had a giggle at this, missed it last time. Wonder what happened to the dog?
> I was sold this as a pedigree Birman mountain dog, but I think it's a husky cross because of the blue eyes?


No, no, no. Can you not see, it's definitely a Bermese, it's one of the rare blue eyed ones, you could make a fortune with that one.


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

Bluefluffybirmans said:


> Had a giggle at this, missed it last time. Wonder what happened to the dog?
> I was sold this as a pedigree Birman mountain dog, but I think it's a husky cross because of the blue eyes?


Have you tried it pulling your bike?
If it can pull your bike it is definitely a husky!


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

cava14 una said:


> That made me laugh:Joyful


Can remember my dad being asked to collect his escapee ferret from the local pub where he was "Terrorizing the customers" he used to take him down there when he went out for a pint and the ferret was quite fond of the trip.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Papirats said:


> Mistaking breed is one thing.. but do any of you regularly walk two foxes?


I do, or rather three!




I've never seen a Corgi with a tail before, it's magnificent. Corgis were one of the breeds that were used in creating Welsh Sheepdogs, and I can see where Kite gets her tail from!


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## lauren harrington (Jul 4, 2018)

Hi, the pictures look great and you shouldn't be too much worried, as it can take to a full 2yrs till they have fully grown. We had like a 9.5 stone BMD. He had lived till his full 9.5yrs. God has his soul. If you truly want to know, than try to take a dna test. But to go by the pictures he or she sure looks like a BMD.


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

The original thread was from 2015 !


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

DaisyBluebell said:


> The original thread was from 2015 !


Its quite funny reading things you said nearly 3 years ago :Jawdrop:Joyful


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