# Walkies From Hell



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I have to be honest that i never paid as much attention to how much they pull on the lead when they walk together. 

I walk them alone....perfect!
We walk them together.... hell!

And of course we want to be able to walk the dogs together and not seperate all the time.

So what happened was we took them out to the village to see cars, people other dogs and so on.

First we passed a house with some lion statues in front of the gate...cobi went bazooka barking and trying to get the statues 
Then they started pulling. And what we do is when they pull we stop and dont move forward, wait until they sit down and then move again.
And everytime one of us stopped because of the pulling the dog started crying...sooo loud and so desperate and barking and people started looking out the windows probably thinking the dogs getting tortured by us  
Maya also starts then jumpin all over me crying her throat out when she cant move forward 

Then a guy with a dog passed us...the dog was happy wagging his tail ....
cobi barked at him trying to jump towards him...maya was happy but tried to jump on the dog as well. 

I dont know...will this stopping when pulling ever teach them not to pull?
Or am i doin something wrong?

My arm is sooo sore today as cobi is heavy already and when he pulls then he pulls proper!

Im already scared to take them to the village again  But we have to to get them used to things like that


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

try some training discs they have worked wounders for me no pulling and no aggresion towards other dogs.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

staflove said:


> try some training discs they have worked wounders for me no pulling and no aggresion towards other dogs.


what are training discs?


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Do NOt try training dics.

IMO Cobi is showing signs of early fear aggression. This is something that needs to be sorted ASAP or it will really become a problem. Training discs will likely make the problem worse.

I know I sound like a scratched record, but you are a first time dog owner with two breeds that are not really suitable for first time dog owners, and you have two pups, which also makes things more difficult.

I know you mentioned before you were going to start training classes? Are you still intending to do this? Try looking on Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK or Puppy training classes, Puppy School is a network of UK schools for training young puppies. if you haven't found someone already. You shouldn't have a problem going via those sites, but a mere mention of training dics/choke chains/rattle bottles or being pack leader and get your running shoes on.....

Try reading 'The Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson. It is quite preachy (my kind of book! ) but gives a good insight into why dogs behave like they do and whilst it won't give direct training adcie really, it is a good grounding. Also written by her that might be of help are 'Fight' (dog on dog aggressiona and fear aggression) and 'Mine!' (rescource guarding)

Hope this helps.


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

Agentle leader will help a bit with the pulling if you cant get them out of the pulling. I know its harder when you have more than one dog to concentrate on whilst out walking.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Cobi goes to training classes every week and there he doesnt show any aggression towards other dogs. 
He actually does really well at the training 

When its fear aggression...how do u sort it out?
He was pretty frightened of alot of things when he came to us. He became more confident about things now but other dogs while walking seem to be a problem. After a while he stops barking at them  But as afirst reaction towards other dogs ... thats not good i guess. 

And just about the first time dog owner thing.
Just because my name wasnt on the papers of the dogs i grew up with, doesnt make me a first time dog owner in person. Only on papers.

What breed is suitable for the first time dog owner anyway 
Does it mean i should have went for a breed i didnt really like


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2008)

Not sure about the fear aggression, but to try and stop the pulling I found a halti was great, it stopped almost immediately.


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

ok you have ben told not to use them, i have used them as tess shows aggresion and i dont even have to do anything she knows i have them and she behaves, i can see what the other lady is saying as you dont want to scare your dog, but me personally dont think they wil they just jingle and it the noise they dont like they have been great for me my dog is doing great should have used them years ago.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

nic b said:


> Not sure about the fear aggression, but to try and stop the pulling I found a halti was great, it stopped almost immediately.


i didnt try this one out as i have heard u shouldnt use them on puppies under 6 months old. But not sure if that one is true


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Sorry i can also walk her holding the lead with one finger, she is a staffy and they pull on the lead not now, im amazed shes not frightened and she gets so many praises for doing this, these discs have worked a treat, she was a horrible dog and i used to come home crying cos we never had good walks now i love my walks with her now.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Natik said:


> Cobi goes to training classes every week and there he doesnt show any aggression towards other dogs.
> He actually does really well at the training
> 
> When its fear aggression...how do u sort it out?
> ...


I would imagine he feels more comfortable in the sorroundings of the training classes. What does the trainer say about your problems?

Fear aggression is when a dog shows symptoms of aggression but not because they are being aggressive, but because they are scared of something. Puppies shouldn't really be scared of much, they should be excited by new things in general. You will only sort it out properly using reward based methods, not negative reinforcement, which is what training dics are. Have you discused it with Cobi's breeder? What does she say?

There is absolutely no need to get defensive. I replied to try and be helpful. I am not suggesting you get a breed of dog you don't like, but you have got two breeds that aren't usually suitable for new owners, and it seems you have had rather a few problems with these pups and are scared of one of them. Things will only get worse as they get older unless you get proper help with them.

It is clear you are commited to yuor pups and care about them, i don't debate that at all. My replies are intended to be helpful, so please don't take offence.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2008)

Natik said:


> i didnt try this one out as i have heard u shouldnt use them on puppies under 6 months old. But not sure if that one is true


I never heard that before, will have a look and see what it says


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

staflove said:


> Sorry i can also walk her holding the lead with one finger, she is a staffy and they pull on the lead not now, im amazed shes not frightened and she gets so many praises for doing this, these discs have worked a treat, she was a horrible dog and i used to come home crying cos we never had good walks now i love my walks with her now.


what are these training discs?


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

Training disks are discs of metal you normally drop them or rattle them loadly to stop unwanted behaviour is meant to break a cycle and then you reward when good behaviour is present. Other dog owners do reply if i am wrong.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2008)

Natik said:


> i didnt try this one out as i have heard u shouldnt use them on puppies under 6 months old. But not sure if that one is true


Had a look and still not quite sure, the only thing i found was this :

Dr Mugfords Animal Behaviour Centre has used Haltis for puppy training nearly twenty years, and the outcome has usually been successful. For many, the Halti is just a transitional form of physical control, before moving on to the conventional wide collar or some of the specially designed orthopaedic harnesses (eg the Roadie).

A word of warning for training all puppies: be gentle and slow in all movements. Remember that their neck muscles and ligaments are not as strongly formed as in adults, and there should be no harsh jerking. Many puppies were injured with choke chains by using excessive force and harsh methods in those bad, pre-Halti days.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2008)

Mikki Dog Training Discs offer you a way to training your dog from having unwanted behaviour. Behaviours such as jumping up, aggression, and not heeding your commands can be worked on with these discs. You will find a how to manual included in the packaging to help with training. This training aid was designed by John Fisher.

* Stops unwanted dog behaviour.
* Includes usage guide.

Mikki Dog Training Discs  Dog-Toy.co.uk


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

sullivan said:


> Training disks are discs of metal you normally drop them or rattle them loadly to stop unwanted behaviour is meant to break a cycle and then you reward when good behaviour is present. Other dog owners do reply if i am wrong.


Hi hun your spot on thats what they are, people use Percorrecter which is compressed air not good woild never recomend useing that the discs have worked a treat and there not that loud its like jingling your car keys my dog is so better if used right.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

jackson said:


> I would imagine he feels more comfortable in the sorroundings of the training classes. What does the trainer say about your problems?
> 
> Fear aggression is when a dog shows symptoms of aggression but not because they are being aggressive, but because they are scared of something. Puppies shouldn't really be scared of much, they should be excited by new things in general. You will only sort it out properly using reward based methods, not negative reinforcement, which is what training dics are. Have you discused it with Cobi's breeder? What does she say?
> 
> ...


The problems i have discussed on here are things which most dog owners have 

And when did i ever said that i am scared of my dog  Im not scared at all as far as i know 

Im not getting defensive but u can mention this first time dog owner thing once to me and i do understand, but u seem to mention it quite alot.

Does it change things when i say my husband isnt a first time dog owner?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Anyway...we are going to ask the dog trainer about this tonight.

I just thought i could ask people on here whats their opiniens and how they dealt with things like that


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Natik said:


> Anyway...we are going to ask the dog trainer about this tonight.
> 
> I just thought i could ask people on here whats their opiniens and how they dealt with things like that


good luck hun, i really mean it, my dog walks made me cry they were so bad as about the discs see what they say there only about 5 quid butits the best 5 quid i have ever spent, see how you go, i can do a video of mine justto show you the diffrence hope things work out for you.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Natik said:


> The problems i have discussed on here are things which most dog owners have
> 
> And when did i ever said that i am scared of my dog  Im not scared at all as far as i know
> 
> ...


I am not going to post the links to you saying you were frightened of your pup, because it is pointless. But you did say it.

IMO, the problems you have posted about are mostly basic things that the average dog owner should know prior to getting a dog. How to stop jumping up, solve food aggression etc.

Obviously the forum is here to ask advice, but I think where there are a number of problems/behaviours that need sorting out, one to one with a behaviourist is probably for the best.

As I said before, I have posted to try and be helpful, but you clearly don't want to hear it so I simply won't bother in future.

What I will say is training discs or any other type of negative re-inforcement is not the way to go with Cobi and will quite possibly make problems a lot worse, potentially dangerous.

Good luck with your pups.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2008)

This is why it is easier to buy in one puppy, train it,then add another.
You were warned that buying in two puppes together could be difficult,We walk our's together,but if I'm on my own I will take them out on there own because my bitch can be aggressive with other dogs,It can be difficult holding onto two strong dogs if your been pestered by an off lead dog with no recall.

The advice Jackson has given is good,to be honest and this is my opinion,I don't think Cobi was socialised enough by the Breeder,does the breeder know about the problems your having and if so what have they advised ?


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

jackson said:


> I am not going to post the links to you saying you were frightened of your pup, because it is pointless. But you did say it.
> 
> IMO, the problems you have posted about are mostly basic things that the average dog owner should know prior to getting a dog. How to stop jumping up, solve food aggression etc.
> 
> Dont take it to heart, i dont think she ment it in a bad way, i see were your coming from, i told them to try disc, but to be fair i never thought some metal disc would be the answer and they were, they have really worked a treat for me, its hard when your trying to sort somthing out and we all tell her diffrent things she wont no who to listen to and what things to try out she will be pleased for all advice given and she can now go ask her trainer what they think dont get upset your good at what you do i can tell you no what your are doing.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

jackson said:


> I am not going to post the links to you saying you were frightened of your pup, because it is pointless. But you did say it.
> 
> IMO, the problems you have posted about are mostly basic things that the average dog owner should know prior to getting a dog. How to stop jumping up, solve food aggression etc.
> 
> ...


if u mean the post about the growling with bone then all i say its normal to get a fright when a dog growls at u  like u said, growling is a warning, so i guess my reaction was only normal. But this is sorted and he doesnt do that anymore. This still doesnt state that i am scared of my dog.

If u say things like this about me than i wish u would prove it or else dont even say things like that, as its not fair.

Im sorry if u think asking on here for advise is a wrong thing to do  I just thought thats what the forum is for. 
We all can google, read or ask trainers but then the forum would be empty.

And about knowing as a average dog owner things i knew how to react but simply wanted to hear how other dog owners react to the same thing and wanted mainly back up my own opinion or hear new things.

And yes, u try to help but u always have something negative to say to me and thats where i have to defend myself as the things are not true u saying about me


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## Sophiex (Jul 27, 2008)

jackson said:


> IMO, the problems you have posted about are mostly basic things that the average dog owner should know prior to getting a dog. How to stop jumping up, solve food aggression etc.
> 
> Obviously the forum is here to ask advice, but I think where there are a number of problems/behaviours that need sorting out, one to one with a behaviourist is probably for the best.


I knew all these things, I read the books and continue to do so but sometimes you do need reassurance about the very simplest things.


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Natik said:


> if u mean the post about the growling with bone then all i say its normal to get a fright when a dog growls at u  like u said, growling is a warning, so i guess my reaction was only normal. But this is sorted and he doesnt do that anymore. This still doesnt state that i am scared of my dog.
> 
> Hi i did not no you was scared of the dog, this will show to your dog try stay calm and relaxed, please keep posting on here id love to no how your getting on and i think jackson is only try to help, lets not fall out we all need each other on here for somthing just stay calm and confident and tell yourself you can do this cos you can.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> This is why it is easier to buy in one puppy, train it,then add another.
> You were warned that buying in two puppes together could be difficult,We walk our's together,but if I'm on my own I will take them out on there own because my bitch can be aggressive with other dogs,*It can be difficult holding onto two strong dogs if your been pestered by an off lead dog with no recall*.
> 
> The advice Jackson has given is good,to be honest and this is my opinion,I don't think Cobi was socialised enough by the Breeder,does the breeder know about the problems your having and if so what have they advised ?


But who said that i am taking two of them out at the same time 
When im alone then i take one each at the time out.
When we take two out then its me and my husband.

And if ur bitch can be aggressive with other dogs, surely u havent socialized her to good either.

All i wanted was advise and i get critic from urs 

And the things i posted about are things which one dog owners encounter as well 

Most of the things i also posted about are sorted, so its not like my dogs are the worst dogs on here.

And they both are getting trained well...both do sit, down, come, leave, stay, sit from lying position at 3 months of age. 
So i dont think im doing as bad as some people make it look like.


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

Stones in a pop bottle are meant to have the same effect as the disks also.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

staflove said:


> Natik said:
> 
> 
> > if u mean the post about the growling with bone then all i say its normal to get a fright when a dog growls at u  like u said, growling is a warning, so i guess my reaction was only normal. But this is sorted and he doesnt do that anymore. This still doesnt state that i am scared of my dog.
> ...


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2008)

Natik said:


> But who said that i am taking two of them out at the same time
> When im alone then i take one each at the time out.
> When we take two out then its me and my husband.
> 
> ...


My bitch was socialised very well as a puppy thank you,she was attacked by a loose dog with no recall,that is why she can be aggressive towards certain dogs when they approach in a certain manner.
What is Cobi like when you take him out on his own ?
Have you spoke with his Breeder ?


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Your doing great hun my dog was probley the worst dog on here i rescued her she was a bitch and if i give her her own way she would do as she pleases to come home crying all the time cos our walk was a night mare is bad, but i did it and you will do it i think your doing fine just need to build your confidence thats all you are doing the right thing by training your dog in classes i carnt waite for you to come back and tell us they are sorted cos you will i belive in you if i can sort a rat bag out who wanted to kill everydog in sight you can sort yours.


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## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

Natik said:


> I have to be honest that i never paid as much attention to how much they pull on the lead when they walk together.
> 
> I walk them alone....perfect!
> We walk them together.... hell!
> ...


Hi,

What is interesting is that you say walked separately, perfect.

I have a question, if you had been walking Cobi alone without Maya, how do you think Cobi would have behaved when the guy walked past with his happy dog?

There is a reason for my question, and I will explain when you answer 



> Then a guy with a dog passed us...the dog was happy wagging his tail ....
> cobi barked at him trying to jump towards him...maya was happy but tried to jump on the dog as well.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2008)

Natik said:


> Then a guy with a dog passed us...the dog was happy wagging his tail ....
> cobi barked at him trying to jump towards him...maya was happy but tried to jump on the dog as well.


Do you think this was aggression or just wanting to play? What are they like off the lead with other dogs? I'm not sure how anyone can diagnose fear aggression based on those two lines but I do agree with this:



jackson said:


> Do NOT try training dics.


There are far better ways of curbing this behaviour but it depends on the reason the behaviour is being presented in the first place.


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## warmglo (Feb 25, 2008)

I gather this was the first time you had taken either dog to the village? If so then taking them together sounds like a bit of a handful, but don't despair! The village is a whole new environment, they're bound to get a bit upset. Is there anywhere in the village where you can go sit with them and just watch the sights and sounds? Just take it slow, perhaps one at a time is better at the moment. You will get past this stage. As for the discs, they can be really good, like any other training aid it depends on the dog and how it's used. They should not be seen or used as a negative reinforcement, they are meant to be simply a distraction, and followed quickly by a reward for stopping the unwanted behaviour, which is positive reinforcement. If any dog is scared of them, they should not be used at all. So take courage hun, lots of time, patience, and a stout heart should do it!


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Im not a trainer, but have done this for years and trained all of mine, my staffy was the worst ever, so i decided that i did need some help with her i did most of it myself, but i needed to get her around more that one dog.

I went to see a couple last night who are at there wits end i dont no what to do with there dog, they have english bull, i went there last night and what a problem they have she jumps at you and rips your cloths of you if let in the room she jumps from sofa to sofa and you can not take anything of her.

I brought her in the room, i had her laying there calm, she did fight with me but she gave in first i even had a few bites of her and got a nice bruse on my arm, im quite pleased with the way i handled things and i even got balls from her theres a long way to go but we will do it, they payed 160 pound for a behavouirist to see them he was there 4 hours and the dog did nothing for him, and have asked if i will continue going, i have my work cut out but will sort this dog out, the reason why im saying this is because you dont have to degrees and papers to acheive good results, my moto is dont let the dog win you and they will give in.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Ok, have been a bit busy and couldnt reply...my parents in law coming to visit and i had to tidy up the full house 

Ok, first of all...

1. My dog IS NOT fear aggressive

Some people give themselves the right to diagnose my dog on the 2 sentences i wrote down without bothering and asking more questions about his behaviour! This is really dangerous to do IMO!!
I wish that this people would stop making something out of my dog (for whatever reason) which he clearly isnt!

Im not even bother to explain to these people why my dog IS NOT fear aggressive (as IMO if u diagnose a dog like that then u dont have an understanding about this behaviour anyway), but real life experts explained his behaviour to us and thats all it matters.

2. My puppy been sozialised very well!

To assume something about my puppy without knowing the facts and post it on a public forum before asking i take it as bad-mouthing my breeder, which is wrong to do! And i guess u wouldnt be happy if other people would bad-mouth u as a breeder like that either, before asking for facts.

3. About the posts i made about basic things in the past

Again, to assume that i didnt know how to react in this situations is wrong again! (and i dont know why some people have the need to make me look like that). If they would read my posts properly then they would see that i always stated how i reacted and not that i stood there like an Id#ot not knowing what to do.
I see the forum as a community where people simply talk about their pets, share experiences, see how others would react in the same situation or even to learn new things.
".....where u can discuss topics on everything pet related..."
And thats all i did!

4. Beeing prewarned about owning 2 pups

Didnt have to be prewarned as i was totally aware about the resposibility, the work and effort u have to put in. 
And IMO im doing just fine with the dogs as i can tell best as im the one here with them.

5. Im not scared of my dog!

To get a fright if a dog growls is a normal human reaction (which prevents us from beeing hurt). I would worry more about myself if i wouldnt have got the fright.

puuuhhh....ok, that was me having let my steam out LOL 
In future, please give advise or share opinions but dont get critical with me or dont diagnose my dog without knowing the full facts.

And for all the others, thanks for the advise and for sharing ur experiences 
Much appreciated


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

Hey Natik. At our puppy classes our trainer advised us to get a gentle leader as it stops them pulling. Use it with a double lead, with one clip attached to the collar, so they still have the feel of the collar and wont be shocked when u go back to just using collar (no gentle leader). Zach was a big puller but when i take him out with the gentle leader i have so much more control and he is learning not to pull me along. Carry on the technique of "NO" and stopping when they pull - carry on walking as soon as there is no pull. Reward them *everytime* there is no pulling. (get your pockets full and to the ready!)

Cant comment on the aggression I'm afraid. I have heard that the training discs do marvelous work but *should only be used when guided by a professional*. Maybe you could talk it over at the puppy class.

Good luck with your two babies. Can I just say from what I've read and the pictures that I've seen I think you are doing a great job. You wanted to take on two puppies and thats your business. You are obviously committed and I hope you sort the probs out while they are young.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

jackson said:


> You will only sort it out properly using reward based methods, not negative reinforcement, which is what training dics are.


Can I just clear it up that the discs are not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when something is taken away and this then strengthens the desired behaviour. For instance if a child was nagged about being untidy, then one day he was tidy and the nagging stopped, this is negative reinforcement. Its the action of the nagging being taken away that reinforces the desired behaviour.

The training discs are either, as someone has said, a form of shock tactic to snap the dog out of the behaviour. Or as I personally believe them to be, they are a form of punishment. You do the unwanted behaviour, you get the loud noise (punishment).


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> Hey Natik. At our puppy classes our trainer advised us to get a gentle leader as it stops them pulling. Use it with a double lead, with one clip attached to the collar, so they still have the feel of the collar and wont be shocked when u go back to just using collar (no gentle leader). Zach was a big puller but when i take him out with the gentle leader i have so much more control and he is learning not to pull me along. Carry on the technique of "NO" and stopping when they pull - carry on walking as soon as there is no pull. Reward them *everytime* there is no pulling. (get your pockets full and to the ready!)
> 
> Cant comment on the aggression I'm afraid. I have heard that the training discs do marvelous work but *should only be used when guided by a professional*. Maybe you could talk it over at the puppy class.
> 
> Good luck with your two babies. Can I just say from what I've read and the pictures that I've seen I think you are doing a great job. You wanted to take on two puppies and thats your business. You are obviously committed and I hope you sort the probs out while they are young.


Thanks louise 
I will have a look at these.
It maybe would be good for when they get walked together!

Most of the things are already sorted, and they got sorted so quick. 
They dont jump at us anymore, NO food aggression whatsoever, they are happy in their pen and dont rebell to get out, Totally house trained, with no accidents. And they are doing great learning new things  
When they get walked on their own they walk by heel with not pulling once
So its not as bad as it might have looked like


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

Natik said:


> Thanks louise
> I will have a look at these.
> It maybe would be good for when they get walked together!
> 
> ...


Sounds brilliant!


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> Can I just clear it up that the discs are not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when something is taken away and this then strengthens the desired behaviour. For instance if a child was nagged about being untidy, then one day he was tidy and the nagging stopped, this is negative reinforcement. Its the action of the nagging being taken away that reinforces the desired behaviour.
> 
> The training discs are either, as someone has said, a form of shock tactic to snap the dog out of the behaviour. Or as I personally believe them to be, they are a form of punishment. You do the unwanted behaviour, you get the loud noise (punishment).


I agree with you that training discs are a punishment, but using them is a negative reinforcement. The dog exhibits the required behaviour, the punishment is removed. Negative reinforcement.

Neither are anything I believe there is a place for when training puppies.


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Natik said:


> Ok, have been a bit busy and couldnt reply...my parents in law coming to visit and i had to tidy up the full house
> 
> Ok, first of all...
> 
> ...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

staflove said:


> Natik said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, have been a bit busy and couldnt reply...my parents in law coming to visit and i had to tidy up the full house
> ...


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Im sorry to, i jumped the gun and im not like hope we can be still friends  and please keep me informed, on your training sorry for that


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

staflove said:


> Im sorry to, i jumped the gun and im not like hope we can be still friends  and please keep me informed, on your training sorry for that


No problem  puhhh...friendship saved hehe


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

staflove said:


> Im sorry to, i jumped the gun and im not like hope we can be still friends  and please keep me informed, on your training sorry for that


It was aimed at Moi, and possibly a few others. 

Luckily I have skin like a rhino, and therefore couldn't care less. It's a forum, ask a question, get peoples opinions. You can't pick and chose who does and doesn't reply.

I wasn't going to reply, but might as well now.

I didn't base my _opinion_ (that's _opinion_, not _diagnosis_) on two lines written in this thread. I haven't been rude or disrespectful in any of my posts and went out of my way to comment that it was obvious Natik had her pups best interests at heart. However, clearly my opinion doesn't count because it doesn't agree with what the OP thought.

I'll leave you to your puppies, training discs and gentle leaders.....


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

jackson said:


> It was aimed at Moi, and possibly a few others.
> 
> Luckily I have skin like a rhino, and therefore couldn't care less. It's a forum, ask a question, get peoples opinions. You can't pick and chose who does and doesn't reply.
> 
> ...


And me probably 
Natik also told us about assumming yet did exactly the same saying my bitch wasn't socialised properly as pup,reason for been aggressive with some dogs,far from it!

Jackson I personally think your advice is great,but there's none so deaf as those who do not want to hear  or who get easily offended and won't take anything onboard.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

jackson said:


> It was aimed at Moi, and possibly a few others.
> 
> Luckily I have skin like a rhino, and therefore couldn't care less. It's a forum, ask a question, get peoples opinions. You can't pick and chose who does and doesn't reply.
> 
> ...


And here we are again 
Who said im going to use training discs or gentle leaders?
Whats the deal with u?


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Natik said:


> And here we are again
> Who said im going to use training discs or gentle leaders?
> Whats the deal with u?


The deal with me is that I have gone out of my way to give what I feel is sound advice on several of your threads. I don't feel it is reasonable to be shocke,d startled, frightened or whatever else you want to call it by a puppy that growls. Or for an experienced person, any dog that growls. It is a case of knowing how to deal with it. However you are massively over sensitive and clearly only want to hear certain answers. Therefore, i will not bother offering advice to you again, which I am sure you'll be fine with. 

I didn't say you were going to use training dics or gentle leaders. But YOU said in a previous post that you would 'look into them'.

I am not going to reply any further as I feel this is turning into a pointless arguement. I wish you luck with your pups and I hope they turn into well adjusted well behaved adult dogs that you can enjoy.

Thankyou Sallyanne for the support.


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

jackson said:


> It was aimed at Moi, and possibly a few others.
> 
> Luckily I have skin like a rhino, and therefore couldn't care less. It's a forum, ask a question, get peoples opinions. You can't pick and chose who does and doesn't reply.
> 
> ...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

jackson said:


> The deal with me is that I have gone out of my way to give what I feel is sound advice on several of your threads. I don't feel it is reasonable to be shocke,d startled, frightened or whatever else you want to call it by a puppy that growls. Or for an experienced person, any dog that growls. It is a case of knowing how to deal with it. However you are massively over sensitive and clearly only want to hear certain answers. Therefore, i will not bother offering advice to you again, which I am sure you'll be fine with.
> 
> I didn't say you were going to use training dics or gentle leaders. But YOU said in a previous post that you would 'look into them'.
> 
> ...


LOL

U stated "i will leave u with *ur *Training discs and gentle leaders. Why mine? I dont have any and never said that im going to purchase any.Yes, i will look into them to see what they are, whats wrong with that?
To me it looks like u need a reality check.
And once again u try to make me look like some id*ot on here.

U have a go at me from the first post i stated that im going to get 2 pups, and i dont know what i have done to u.

If thats ur opinion about the growling from any dog , then i wish u good luck with not beeing bitten in future. But certanly i will not surpress my human reactions because u think thats how it should be.

If i would want to hear certain answers, i wouldnt come on here. Like i posted before (if u would read my posts properly) then i stated i like to hear different ideas as thats what the forum is for. So i dont understand why u call me sensitive.
IMO u are the one having issues when people on here say anything against ur opinions.
And i dont defend myself, i only put the things right u say about me and my dogs.

And the marked sentence from ur qoute is much appreciated 

Anything else u want to call me, then please do it by pm and dont ruin the threads on here.

Thank u


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Natik said:


> LOL
> 
> U stated "i will leave u with *ur *Training discs and gentle leaders. Why mine? I dont have any and never said that im going to purchase any.Yes, i
> 
> ...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> And me probably
> Natik also told us about assumming yet did *exactly the same saying my bitch wasn't socialised properly as pup*,reason for been aggressive with some dogs,far from it!
> 
> Jackson I personally think your advice is great,but there's none so deaf as those who do not want to hear  or who get easily offended and won't take anything onboard.


And how did that make u feel when i said that?
Surely u understand where im coming from then.

And AGAIN, *who said that i dont take any advise of urs on board?*
Prove to me and others please by quoting my posts that i dont take any advise on board! *Or else stop spreading lies!*

All i did was correcting jacksons statement that my dog is not fear aggressive. Whats wrong with that?

What is going on with urs? What have i done to u?
Its like u 2 against me and i dont know why.


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

i carnt believe its come to this, just do your thing i love advice when im stuck were humans we dont no everything, but we try i would not take any of it to heart, iv not fallen out with anyone on here i hope we can all still be friends and still post advice if needed.

Sallyanne as given good advice and she knows a lot about the staffy breed so there may be times i need her advice if im struggling with something im not scared to ask for help but we dont need to be slated. 

have a good day hun


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

Natik said:


> And how did that make u feel when i said that?
> Surely u understand where im coming from then.
> 
> And AGAIN, *who said that i dont take any advise of urs on board?*
> ...


I'm not getting drawn into an argument with you.
But I will suggest you read posts properly,I never said you don't take advice onboard,what I did say was, *there's none so deaf as those who do not want to hear or who get easily offended and won't take anything onboard.*
Has it ever dawned on you that we also want the best for your pups ?



Natik said:


> And how did that make u feel when i said that?


It didn't make me feel like anything,I don't get upset by a forum member assuming,if they are wrong then I will give them an explanation like I did earlier in the thread and explained to you she was aggressive not because of been poorly socialised but because she was attacked.


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I'm not getting drawn into an argument with you.
> But I will suggest you read posts properly,I never said you don't take advice onboard,what I did say was, *there's none so deaf as those who do not want to hear or who get easily offended and won't take anything onboard.*
> Has it ever dawned on you that we also want the best for your pups ?
> 
> Now thats nice, i think we all want the best for the pup, well said sallyanne now can we all be friends and stop this, we all need each other on here for somthing


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I'm not getting drawn into an argument with you.
> But I will suggest you read posts properly,I never said you don't take advice onboard,what I did say was,there's none so deaf as those who do not want to hear or who get easily offended and won't take anything onboard.
> *Has it ever dawned on you that we also want the best for your pups* ?
> 
> It didn't make me feel like anything,I don't get upset by a forum member assuming,if they are wrong then I will give them an explanation like I did earlier in the thread and explained to you she was aggressive not because of been poorly socialised but because she was attacked.


Yes, thats why i come on here and ask for advise 

I dont understand what u mean with this sentence then and if u could explain it? So that sentence wasnt directet to me?

I didnt get upset either as ur sentence about the socialising was against my breeder and not me and i just think its simply not right to say things about other breeders which arent a member of the forum and which dont get the chance (which u have) to explain themselves.


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

So now were all FRIENDS  hehe i hate fallings out lets hope Jackson will be our friends, and we can all get more advice


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

jackson said:


> I'll leave you to your puppies, training discs and gentle leaders.....


You speak of gentle leaders negatively. If you do not agree with them thats your opinion but can I just point out I havent just opted for it out of nowhere. My dog trainer who is a current member of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers, has a diploma in Practical Aspects of Companion Animal Behaviour and Training and has been a dog owner, breeder and shower for over 35 years recommended it to us and is has proved very worth while in our case. If Natik chooses to discuss using one with his puppy coach I hope she gets the same results 



jackson said:


> I agree with you that training discs are a punishment, but using them is a negative reinforcement. The dog exhibits the required behaviour, the punishment is removed. Negative reinforcement.
> 
> Neither are anything I believe there is a place for when training puppies.


I see where you're coming from here but I think the way people are told to use the disks sees them more as coming under "punisher" than "negative reinforcer" in behavioural mod terms. As I said a while back in the thread, I dont think anyone should use these without the use of a trained professional. I dont really know why these have come up in conversation anyway because if the dog is scared of something why would you punish it by bellowing a loud noise in its ear?


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> You speak of gentle leaders negatively. If you do not agree with them thats your opinion but can I just point out I havent just
> 
> your dead right louise, but i really wish i could show you all the work iv done with Tess, iv only just been able to a lot more with Tess as i had a rotti Zac he had a stroke and looked after him for 6 months it was very hard, but i got alsorts of things from trianers and nothing worked and these discs have given me and Tess a diffrent life.
> 
> my trainer adviced me on them and showed me how to use them, she as every course and degree you can have and as been working with dogs for over 20 years so i have to listen to her and everything we have done as been a sucsess i walk tess of her lead she saw 2 dogs this morning and she stayed at my side, im so pleased i could cry all i have ever wanted is to be able to walk my dog and be in control i have that now, so im only trting ot offer help what as helped me   better go do some work speak soon


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2008)

staflove said:


> louise5031 said:
> 
> 
> > You speak of gentle leaders negatively. If you do not agree with them thats your opinion but can I just point out I havent just
> ...


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