# Outdoor set up after whelping.



## Paul Morris (Jan 26, 2013)

Being relatively new to dog breeding, I'd like to see peoples out door set ups for housing pups with mum. I have a lab who is 6 weeks into her pregnancy. I have a good whelping set up ready to go, but want to house the pups outside once ready. I have a good size kennel with run (that can be extended), but need a little advice with what is really needed as far as bedding and heating ect. Pics would be great or a link to another thread.

Cheers,

Paul.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Why do you want your little family outside? Are they working dogs destined for life in kennels? If they are to be family pets they should be born and brought up in a family home.


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

Is she a bitch that normally lives out? If not, it'll be a shock for her!

I think you will find that most people want puppies that have been raised in the house and are accustomed to the usual comings and goings of a normal household and all the usual noises. I have used a kennel and run for pups to go outside for part of the day once they get to 5 weeks or so, so they can get fresh air and more space, but I wouldn't leave them outside. For a start, I'd worry about something happening and me not noticing in time - or someone stealing them.

And I certainly wouldn't be putting puppies out in a kennel during the winter


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Paul Morris said:


> Being relatively new to dog breeding, I'd like to see peoples out door set ups for housing pups with mum. I have a lab who is 6 weeks into her pregnancy. I have a good whelping set up ready to go, but want to house the pups outside once ready. I have a good size kennel with run (that can be extended), but need a little advice with what is really needed as far as bedding and heating ect. Pics would be great or a link to another thread.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Paul.


A Guide To Breeding Your Dog 12 - Keep Your Puppies Warm, Fed, and Clean Temperature. A newborn puppy cannot control its body temperature and must be kept in a warm environment. Chilling will stress the puppy and predispose it to infectious disease; overheating can kill it. The environmental temperature can be controlled with a well-insulated electric heating pad or a heat lamp. But make sure the puppies have a cooler place to crawl to if they become too warm. The immediate environmental temperature should be kept between 85 and 90 degrees for the first five days of life. From the seventh to the tenth day, the temperature can be gradually reduced to 80 degrees; by the end of the fourth week it can be brought down to 75 degrees.

Personally I would have a bitch outside either not only because of the above because a bitch can have post whelping problems and so can the pups, plus not watched she can roll onto a lie on the pups especially a bitch having her first litter.

For the full guide which the above comes from that covers right the way through from considering breeding to re-homing puppies Plus other suggested reading

http://images.akc.org/pdf/breeders/resources/guide_to_breeding_your_dog.pdf

This is also useful too 6 most common whelping problems including post whelping
The 6 most common problems during and post whelping (canine pregnancy)

Its also important the puppies are socialised and handled too see link below its about the importance of socialisation and at the end of the breeders and early caregivers section there is a download for you to follow, which you can fill in and give to the new owners in their puppy packs. At the end of the new owners section too there is another download that you can print off and give to the new owners to follow.

The Puppy Plan


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

My pups are whelped in our spare bedroom and at 3 weeks old once weaning starts they are moved downstairs into the dining room - this has a tiled floor and is at the centre of the house so every one has to go past the puppy pen when they move from one room to the next - I use the whelping box ( Snowsilk large size ) with a Big Foot puppy pen from Dog Health to give extra space - with summer pups they spend a fair bit of the day outside on the lawn always supervised - but come in for the evening and of course sleep indoors.I have the radio on, the hoover and washing ,machine going, loads of visitors and my adult dogs all milling around so by the time the pups leave for their new homes they are well socialised and used to a typical family home.

Yep it can be messy I am forever changing newspaper and cleaning up and boy can it be noisy especially when they all greet you first thing in the morning ! - but I firmly believe that dogs that are destined to be pets first and foremost should be reared in a pet environment i.e in the home.


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## Callia (Jan 14, 2009)

I assume that you are meaning once the puppies are 5-6 weeks that you would like them to spend some time out during the day. I dont think there is anything wrong in that at all as long as it is completely secure and comfortable for them. I wouldnt however consider leaving them out all day and never overnight as they need to be spending as much time as possible indoors with people 
You will of course need to make sure they are warm enough so a heat lamp and plenty of vet bed will be needed along with plenty of toys and chews to keep them entertained.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Callia said:


> I assume that you are meaning once the puppies are 5-6 weeks that you would like them to spend some time out during the day. I dont think there is anything wrong in that at all as long as it is completely secure and comfortable for them. I wouldnt however consider leaving them out all day and never overnight as they need to be spending as much time as possible indoors with people
> You will of course need to make sure they are warm enough so a heat lamp and plenty of vet bed will be needed along with plenty of toys and chews to keep them entertained.


I may be wrong, but I don't think that is what he meant at all. Newborn puppies are delicate creatures and they need to be in the warm and safe from predators.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Paul Morris said:


> Being relatively new to dog breeding, I'd like to see peoples out door set ups for housing pups with mum. I have a lab who is 6 weeks into her pregnancy. I have a good whelping set up ready to go, but want to house the pups outside once ready. I have a good size kennel with run (that can be extended), but need a little advice with what is really needed as far as bedding and heating ect. Pics would be great or a link to another thread.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Paul.


Hi Paul

The OH has working dogs and whelps his bitches indoors, transferring them to an outside run with a half height box once they're about 5 weeks old, depending on their size and how robust they seem. His base of his kennel runs are concrete, and he uses vet bed in the sleeping box (which is half height and off the floor), enough of it to make it soft and padded. The lower height of the sleeping box helps the pups keep warm because the heat doesn't escape up in to a big void, he has half height boxes for all his dogs for that reason. He also has a dog yard which is well sheltered from all aspects. They get to see all the day to day activities there, and interact with the other dogs there. If your kennel and run is too open, it might not be suitable depending on the weather, to transfer them from the warmth indoors to the outside.

Just for into, although his are working dogs, not all off the pups go on to live outdoors in kennels, some do live in homes and none have (so far) been reported to have been scarred for life because they lived in a kennel


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Unless you have professionally set up and heated kennels and your dogs normally live outside, then I certainly wouldn't consider putting mum and pups outside as soon as the puppies are born (why would you want to? for the first three to four weeks, we don't take our eyes off them at all - the first week or two particularly are fantastic "time wasters".

Even where I have known of breeders with the above setups - they camp out with them for the first week or two.

=================

Putting pups outside at 6 weeks + is another story assuming you have an insulated puppy house (not cheap to develop) 

A couple of my bought in pups have been raised in this way (indoors to 6 weeks etc) and it certainly hasn't done them any harm - I would go as far as to say they are better adjusted than those raised solely in the home. 

Although I've only had a handful of litters, for me the magic is being able to so closely watch their development- when they get older - they have full newspapers down which are lifted bit by bit when messed - makes it much easier to keep them clean,

All things being equal, I will soon have a litter on the ground in around a months time to help someone out - I can't wait - watching them develop into their own little characters is just amazing - and even better one of the pups should be staying with me - despite being severely mobility limited, I presently work from home and it's my dogs given me my main reason for getting up in the morning - the litter I know will help over-ride many of the issues I have as it is such a busy and amazing time.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Pippa was raised in the breeders home until about 4 weeks, when they were transferred into a stable. There was a crate, heat lamp, and a kennel in there for them. They had time outside in a puppy pen each day.

This is in the kitchen at 3 weeks









This is in the stable at 5 weeks

























Pippa was MUCH easier to housetrain than my previous dog (home reared), I think it was because she was used to going outside from day one. We only went through 2 bottles of cleaning spray. When we visited at 5 weeks, the breeder let them out of the stable and they ALL did a wee on the grass straight away, so they were getting to grips with it from that age. Pippa is not under socialised because of living outside. Of course the TV was new to her when she came as you can see from the pic below (she was staring at the tv), but she wasn't scared of it. 









I wouldn't want to move the puppies outside straight after birth though...


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## Paul Morris (Jan 26, 2013)

Thank you so much to those who have submitted constructive advise. I have no intension in putting pups outside until they are at least a month old if not longer. Mum is a working dog, although spends a lot of time with the family in the home, and is housed outside in a well constructed and spacious stable with box and outdoor run. There is plenty of room to house the pups with her there. I'm breeding her for the experience and joy of it. I think it will be a valuable learning experience for my young family, who will be involved. To do this I want mum and pups inside for as long as they need it. Many of the pups will go into a working life, so need them to have experienced sleeping out. 

All I need to sort out is a heat lamp and bedding material and my outside area will be fine.

I cant wait

Paul.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Paul Morris said:


> Thank you so much to those who have submitted constructive advise. I have no intension in putting pups outside until they are at least a month old if not longer. Mum is a working dog, although spends a lot of time with the family in the home, and is housed outside in a well constructed and spacious stable with box and outdoor run. There is plenty of room to house the pups with her there. I'm breeding her for the experience and joy of it. I think it will be a valuable learning experience for my young family, who will be involved. To do this I want mum and pups inside for as long as they need it. Many of the pups will go into a working life, so need them to have experienced sleeping out.
> 
> All I need to sort out is a heat lamp and bedding material and my outside area will be fine.
> 
> ...


Sounds perfectly fine to me then. Good luck, hope all goes well!


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## Paul Morris (Jan 26, 2013)

dandogman said:


> Pippa was raised in the breeders home until about 4 weeks, when they were transferred into a stable. There was a crate, heat lamp, and a kennel in there for them. They had time outside in a puppy pen each day.
> 
> This is in the kitchen at 3 weeks
> 
> ...


This a very simular set up to mine, although mine is a wooden structure. I may need to look into improving the insulation, just to retain some of the heat to keep the general temp stable.

Thanks for the pics.

Paul.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Paul Morris said:


> Thank you so much to those who have submitted constructive advise. I have no intension in putting pups outside until they are at least a month old if not longer. Mum is a working dog, although spends a lot of time with the family in the home, and is housed outside in a well constructed and spacious stable with box and outdoor run. There is plenty of room to house the pups with her there.* I'm breeding her for the experience and joy of it. I think it will be a valuable learning experience for my young family, who will be involved*. To do this I want mum and pups inside for as long as they need it. Many of the pups will go into a working life, so need them to have experienced sleeping out.
> 
> All I need to sort out is a heat lamp and bedding material and my outside area will be fine.
> 
> ...


i cant add anything on the outdoor housing (i have yorkies- they'd kill themselves if kept outdoors!) but Please be careful about that bolded line... i'm assuming you mean so your kids can watch the momma raise the litter, but i know of a woman who wanted her children to experience 'the miracle of birth' and instead the 4&6yr olds watched their dog give birth to 3 stillborn half formed pups...
on a less depressing note... can we see your girl?!


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## Paul Morris (Jan 26, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> i cant add anything on the outdoor housing (i have yorkies- they'd kill themselves if kept outdoors!) but Please be careful about that bolded line... i'm assuming you mean so your kids can watch the momma raise the litter, but i know of a woman who wanted her children to experience 'the miracle of birth' and instead the 4&6yr olds watched their dog give birth to 3 stillborn half formed pups...
> on a less depressing note... can we see your girl?!


Hi there,

My kids are 9, 11 and 13. Although they are fairly used to the ups and downs of working with animals (I work falcons and dogs as a job), I want them to be involved with the day to day jobs after whelping rather than helping with birthing.

Paul.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Pics of your girl please 


As you're breeding Labs, PLEASE say that you've done the vital health tests of the stud and dam.....?

e.g. had them both hip scored, eye tests, etc.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Paul Morris said:


> Thank you so much to those who have submitted constructive advise. I have no intension in putting pups outside until they are at least a month old if not longer. Mum is a working dog, although spends a lot of time with the family in the home, and is housed outside in a well constructed and spacious stable with box and outdoor run. There is plenty of room to house the pups with her there. I'm breeding her for the experience and joy of it. I think it will be a valuable learning experience for my young family, who will be involved. To do this I want mum and pups inside for as long as they need it. Many of the pups will go into a working life, so need them to have experienced sleeping out.
> 
> All I need to sort out is a heat lamp and bedding material and my outside area will be fine.
> 
> ...


All I can say is I hope you don't have my experience, I was £3k down in total after all pups had gone to new homes, from all the expenses involved. One person on here lost their bitch and had to raise pups through a mixture of wet nurse bitches and bottle feeding.

Hip scores and current, clear eye cert are the minimum the KC recommends for Labs, you can do these in retrospect if you weren't aware of them, at least for your bitch to ensure she's got the appropriate results, although they won't show on the KC paperwork for pups. I would also encourage you to place the KC endorsements on pups and encourage any owners to health test progeny before lifting them, to allow them to breed on from the pups produced. I think there's an example of the contract and explanation of endorsements on the KC website, if not, I'm sure someone would be happy to post a copy of something similar.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Paul Morris said:


> Thank you so much to those who have submitted constructive advise. I have no intension in putting pups outside until they are at least a month old if not longer. Mum is a working dog, although spends a lot of time with the family in the home, and is housed outside in a well constructed and spacious stable with box and outdoor run. There is plenty of room to house the pups with her there. I'm breeding her for the experience and joy of it. I think it will be a valuable learning experience for my young family, who will be involved. To do this I want mum and pups inside for as long as they need it. Many of the pups will go into a working life, so need them to have experienced sleeping out.
> 
> All I need to sort out is a heat lamp and bedding material and my outside area will be fine.
> 
> ...


This is the problem with the written word - maybe if you had explained the situation like this from the outset, you would have had different responses.

I know show and working breeders who have fabulous outdoor settings for when the pups are older, and providing they remain well handled and socialised there shouldn't be a problem.

The only thing I will say is that where I have had pups who've been outside towards the end of their days with the breeder, they have been (as mentioned in my previous post) very well adjusted - the only negative I have found is they've definitely been harder to housetrain than those pups raised solely within the home.

That is about the only negative I can think of (oh - and when bringing my last pup home in - 10 degrees conditions - I took one of my older girls for company - every time I closed the window and put the heating on, he whimpered -every time I opened the window and put the heating off he settled - couldn't feel my fingers by the time I got home 

Clearly - these Northern pups are made of sterner stuff than me


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## Paul Morris (Jan 26, 2013)

swarthy said:


> This is the problem with the written word - maybe if you had explained the situation like this from the outset, you would have had different responses.
> 
> I know show and working breeders who have fabulous outdoor settings for when the pups are older, and providing they remain well handled and socialised there shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'm very used to forums and communicating this way (not face to face) it never allows for the full story, unless you have the time to type for hours. The thread question or request was for examples of outdoor set ups for pups that are ready to go out side. Funny how it's moved onto hip scores and eye tests (which I have, along with dam and sire paperwork from the KC). Was also asking for advise on heating methods and bedding.

Paul.


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## bluegirl (May 7, 2012)

I have 3 children, younger at the time than your 3 by a year or two respectively. My my intentions for breeding where never to let my children see the joys of breeding and life experience but they were there, infact my middle child proven very helpful even at whelping but the other 2 took no part at all and gained very little from the experience only thinking pups were cute.

I do know people who only raise pups outside, but dams live outside always and once midway through pregnancy they are separated to a secured draught proof room which has a whelping area and a caged area for later when mum and pups can be separated. All the equipment is there including heat and light. Pups are whelped there and remain there inside until they are over 4 wks then they have access to a caged open outdoor area where they can play, come and go but not mix with the other dogs.

I also know quite a few pet owners who breed for "the experience" and lost their much loved bitch and / or whole litters in the process and where devastated beyond belief wondering how such a natural part of life could go so wrong. Not sure how they changed the "joy of life experience" to the "devastation of death experience" when dealing with their kids but its something to consider.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Paul Morris said:


> Thanks. I'm very used to forums and communicating this way (not face to face) it never allows for the full story, unless you have the time to type for hours. The thread question or request was for examples of outdoor set ups for pups that are ready to go out side.* Funny how it's moved onto hip scores and eye tests (which I have, along with dam and sire paperwork from the KC). Was also asking for advise on heating methods and bedding.
> *
> Paul.


It's a site for dog lovers, so why on earth wouldn't some of us ask about health tests - given how ghastly hip dysplasia can be, for instance??

- How else do we try and inform people who might be reading this thread and thinking of breeding from THEIR Labs?


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I would not buy a puppy that had been raised outside. I would want a pup that was socialised and used to houses, people, hoovers etc.
I suggest you visit a few good breeders and learn from them


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## chaka (Feb 19, 2012)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I would not buy a puppy that had been raised outside. I would want a pup that was socialised and used to houses, people, hoovers etc.
> I suggest you visit a few good breeders and learn from them


My last litter was reared totally in the house, but previously pups went outside into a purpose built kennel at 4 or 5 weeks. However they came in every day to get used to tv, hoover, washing machine etc. It is possible to have pups outside and still do all the necessary socialisation.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chaka said:


> My last litter was reared totally in the house, but previously pups went outside into a purpose built kennel at 4 or 5 weeks. However they came in every day to get used to tv, hoover, washing machine etc. It is possible to have pups outside and still do all the necessary socialisation.


Totally agree - I don't have outside facilities, but I've seen some really advanced set-ups all with well handled, well adjusted and well socialised pups.

For someone to dismiss it out of sorts without being familiar with what the set up is and how the pups are raised is quite rude.

With each litter I've had - I use the shredder and the hoover and many other items - yet my last home bred girl loathes the hoover - why I've got no idea - it certainly isn't through lack of familiarisation with it - her grandmother raised outside in the latter weeks just rolls her eyes and moves - as do both her daughters (both raised inside and one of them dam to my last home-bred girl raised in exactly the same way as her mother and aunt.


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## Kunakizz (Nov 25, 2012)

Paul Morris said:


> Thank you so much to those who have submitted constructive advise. I have no intension in putting pups outside until they are at least a month old if not longer. Mum is a working dog, although spends a lot of time with the family in the home, and is housed outside in a well constructed and spacious stable with box and outdoor run. There is plenty of room to house the pups with her there. I'm breeding her for the experience and joy of it. I think it will be a valuable learning experience for my young family, who will be involved. To do this I want mum and pups inside for as long as they need it. Many of the pups will go into a working life, so need them to have experienced sleeping out.
> 
> All I need to sort out is a heat lamp and bedding material and my outside area will be fine.
> 
> ...


I agree you will need a heat lamp. If you can contain the pups 'exercise area' then I suggest you use shredded tea bag material which you can buy in bales, it's better than soggy newspapers, soaks up pee and poo and the pups stay clean.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

swarthy said:


> This is the problem with the written word - maybe if you had explained the situation like this from the outset, you would have had different responses.
> 
> I know show and working breeders who have fabulous outdoor settings for when the pups are older, and providing they remain well handled and socialised there shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> ...


I have had the opposite experience. Pippa was very easy, she was so used to going on the grass.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I put my latest litter out at 6 weeks. I had them in our garage with a purpose built area which had a lockable dogflap for access to outside. I had a heat lamp, a heat pad and a radiator in there (dreading the electricity bill!) and they were fine. I brought them into the house every day. Because they had access to outdoors, they were housetrained very quickly and all went to their new owners knowing not to mess in the house. I will definitely do it again.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

I can't give any advice on breeding set-ups but I have insulated a wooden shed for my outdoor rabbits. 

We used thick polystyrene sheets with the silver thermal insulation stuff that comes on a roll - we literally 'wedged' the polystyrene in place on the walls and roof (if you have space you could do the floor too) and then used a staple gun to fix the silver backed stuff in place. We then pinned up sheets of white-faced hardboard to make it hygienic and to prevent the rabbits from nibbling the insulation! 

Depending on what space you have; you could then add an insulated kennel within this set-up which would doubly insulate the space. The insulation works to keep heat in for winter and keep extreme heat out in summer.

I don't know if this picture will help but here it is:










- obviously rabbits can't reach that far so we only covered the insulation half-way up. 

The whole set-up:










- our outdoor run roof is Onduline sheeting which is absolutely brilliant.

Tube heaters (which you can also get guards for) are a popular form of heating for rabbit owners as they are cheap to purchase and cheap to run.

I hope this helps!

We have actually since moved our rabbits into a brick shed but the outdoor wall was in a bad way so we used some insulation board to insulate the wall before the rabbits went in and despite the very low temperatures we've been experiencing their water hasn't frozen at all and the temperature within there has remained relatively stable.


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## Paul Morris (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks for everyone's replies, very interesting discussion. On day 53 now. Had vet look May over yesterday, she's fine, just feedup bless her. Whelping kit ready and waiting, arranged days off and a team of friends willing to lend a hand. I'm still going to use my outside area, but as said before ONLY when they are ready.

Paul.


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## Paul Morris (Jan 26, 2013)

Will post pics of pups as soon as its over.


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## Paul Morris (Jan 26, 2013)

A quick update.

May had her pups today. Didnt go according to plan. stage 1 started about 7 last night and the first pups appeared at around 7 in the morning, but was still born as was the second. Was starting to worry at this point, but May was coping fine. Called the vet for advise, but as I was doing so the next one was being pushed and arrived well. The next 2 were fine too, but there was a long wait for the next contractions, and they appeared weak. So I called the vet again, who called us in with the view to administering the 'get a move on' injection. Upon examination it was decided that a C section was the best option as she looked like she was carrying a fare few more and was very tired from a day in labor. 6 more were found, but only 4 were healthy. 1 was born with a very weak heart and died soon after and the other was under developed and was still born. Bit sad, but we are so pleased with the 4 girls and 3 boys that we have. 

A stressful and emotional day, but amazing....

Paul.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Sorry to hear it didnt go well.

Am i reading this correct did she have 13 pups?


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Sorry to hear it didnt go well.
> 
> Am i reading this correct did she have 13 pups?


i counted 11. Good luck with surviving pups, Paul.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Luz said:


> i counted 11. Good luck with surviving pups, Paul.


Did you,its late


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Good luck from here on in, it possibly takes a couple of days for her to start cleaning them after a c-section, until then you have to encourage them to pee and poo by cleaning them, let her see what you're doing as it might trigger her instincts. That is, unless they've already kicked in. 

I'm sorry about the ones you lost, I hope you don't lose any more, it can be a bit of a roller coaster ride.


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## Paul Morris (Jan 26, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Good luck from here on in, it possibly takes a couple of days for her to start cleaning them after a c-section, until then you have to encourage them to pee and poo by cleaning them, let her see what you're doing as it might trigger her instincts. That is, unless they've already kicked in.
> 
> I'm sorry about the ones you lost, I hope you don't lose any more, it can be a bit of a roller coaster ride.


Thanks for your reply.
Yes, she's not got the idea of cleaning them yet. I've have been doing it myself, and rubbing the freshly poo`d pups on her face to get the smell on her. She watched me clean them this morning and gave them a lick as I replaced them. Getting there.


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## Nightmare (Aug 26, 2010)

Paul Morris said:


> Thanks for your reply.
> Yes, she's not got the idea of cleaning them yet. I've have been doing it myself, and rubbing the freshly poo`d pups on her face to get the smell on her. She watched me clean them this morning and gave them a lick as I replaced them. Getting there.


Put a little dab of something tasty on their bellies. Peanut butter, beef baby food (no onion), then offer them to her to clean. Might kick start her instincts a little bit, and reward her for the action.

Jess


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Nightmare said:


> Put a little dab of something tasty on their bellies. Peanut butter, beef baby food (no onion), then offer them to her to clean. Might kick start her instincts a little bit, and reward her for the action.
> 
> Jess


I did that and my bitch gave me the dirtiest look possible when the pup promptly pee'd on her tongue. She just started naturally after a couple of days, with a bit of encouragement in the end. We were cleaning them together for a short while before she insisted it was all her duty and took over every cleaning episode.


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## Hopper (Feb 12, 2013)

your comments were very useful thanks


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## Paul Morris (Jan 26, 2013)




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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

i especially love the last pic!! :001_wub:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

They're gorgeous congratulations :001_wub:. I hope they and mum are doing well.


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