# Your views on "Restrictions" set by the the owner of the stud cat please help



## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

hi 
i have a female queen siamese in heat and i was going to use a breeder with a stud !
untill he told me there was restrictions ie ! i could not sell any of the male kittens as studs they would have to be registered on the non active list !
i just cant get my head round this as he was charging £200 to stud and after all it is my queen who i will have to feed and look after the kittens and pay the vet bills.
is this the normal practice of a breeder or are they just being silly and greedy ?
i would like your views on this and hopefully point me in the right direction
kind regards


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Hi Calaco,

There is a thred that is still quite active which you might want to take a look at with regards to this issue. There are lots of interesting views. It was started by Biawhiska and the last post on it was only yesterday. The thred is called RESTRICTIONS. That might help you a bit with regards to people opinions on this matter. 

xx


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

If you're not happy with it the go and find another stud.


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

Some breeders like to do this as they try and keep there line healthy and the best they can and its to stop people breeding willy nilly. I think it normally is more often used in the case of the females generally.


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

sullivan said:


> Some breeders like to do this as they try and keep there line healthy and the best they can and its to stop people breeding willy nilly. I think it normally is more often used in the case of the females generally.


thanks for the reply
yes i agree with what you say ref keep the line healthy but if all the breeders do this then one day certain breeds will be gone for ever as the studs will die of old age then were will we be ?


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

Biawhiska said:


> If you're not happy with it the go and find another stud.


hi biawhiska
thanks for your reply 
i have just thought that my self ! and even better i have just been offered a male siamese kitten on the non active list from another breeder for a little bit more money ! sounds good just my female needs a stud now 
kind regards


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## bluechip (Dec 26, 2008)

calaco said:


> thanks for the reply
> yes i agree with what you say ref keep the line healthy but if all the breeders do this then one day certain breeds will be gone for ever as the studs will die of old age then were will we be ?


i have two queens who have been to stud and i can sell my kittens on the active list as long as the person is over 200miles away from the stud.

but i feel that i have not been breeding that long to sell a kitten on the active list, there are so much you need to learn when starting out in breeding that selling a kitten on active should only be done when you are experienced enough to be able to give the new breeder advice if they need it.

all my kittens go on the non active list but can be used for shows, as the studs are champions and great champions and my queens come from really good lines i feel that maybe one of my kittens could be shown but again i would have to talk to the stud owner as i have no clue what a show cat should be, so taking all this in mind, my kittens so far have just gone for pets.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

calaco said:


> hi biawhiska
> thanks for your reply
> i have just thought that my self ! and even better i have just been offered a male siamese kitten on the non active list from another breeder for a little bit more money ! sounds good just my female needs a stud now
> kind regards


Hi
why do you want your kittens to go on the active?


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

bluechip said:


> i have two queens who have been to stud and i can sell my kittens on the active list as long as the person is over 200miles away from the stud.
> 
> but i feel that i have not been breeding that long to sell a kitten on the active list, there are so much you need to learn when starting out in breeding that selling a kitten on active should only be done when you are experienced enough to be able to give the new breeder advice if they need it.
> 
> all my kittens go on the non active list but can be used for shows, as the studs are champions and great champions and my queens come from really good lines i feel that maybe one of my kittens could be shown but again i would have to talk to the stud owner as i have no clue what a show cat should be, so taking all this in mind, my kittens so far have just gone for pets.


hi
this is quite strange as im from south of the river tyne and i was looking on your website earlier today
what it is i bought my queen on the active list she has a supperb pedigree 2nd to none ?
showed her in the nissan show last year got two 2nds and a 3rd first time her sister got two 1sts and a 2nd
i just dont believe how some breeders can quote restrictions ! as far as im concerned these breeders will not have my buisness in the future !
since writing this post i have found quite a few breeders in durham that have no restrictions they are people who care about what they are doing because they love animals and they will always have homes for the kittens
kind regards


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Any prospective buyer of a ped kitten should be aware of any restrictions imposed by the breeder before they buy the kitten, so complaining after you have had the kitten just doesnt make sence to me, mostly restrictions are in place to stop irrisponsible breeders therefore all they are doing is protecting the breed.


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

Biawhiska said:


> Hi
> why do you want your kittens to go on the active?


hi
as my queen is on the active list so her kittens will be they have the right !
as i was hoping to keep a male for my other queen in the future
well the breeder insisted that all male kittens must go on non active list so they cant be used as studs in the future ?what is the breeders problem maybe he just wants to be sole breeder in the north !
all female kittens are ok to go on active list ?
thats the breeders restrictions !
well excuse me for saying lol dont i get a say in the being of the kittens as its my queen who will be delivering them!
kind regards


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

raggs said:


> Any prospective buyer of a ped kitten should be aware of any restrictions imposed by the breeder before they buy the kitten, so complaining after you have had the kitten just doesnt make sence to me, mostly restrictions are in place to stop irrisponsible breeders therefore all they are doing is protecting the breed.


excuse me
try reading original post ! lol were does it say buying a kitten !
this is about a queen going to stud lol
u have just put your foot in it 
some people they just dont know


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

you were talking about restrictions !!!!! the restrictions were in place when you bought the cat so all im stating is you knew this so why complain now, and your posts contradict them selves in one you say your queen is non active then you say she is on the active register


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

put my foot in what???......lol


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

raggs said:


> Any prospective buyer of a ped kitten should be aware of any restrictions imposed by the breeder before they buy the kitten, so complaining after you have had the kitten just doesnt make sence to me, mostly restrictions are in place to stop irrisponsible breeders therefore all they are doing is protecting the breed.


Agree with you there Chris!!

Right, the reason a lot of breeders have restrictions is to stop people selling everything and anything for breeding, especially when half the time the ones selling constantly for breeding are selling pet quality kittens for breeding x THIS is not bettering a breed but merely letting anyone and everyone have breeding kittens, so if you put all your kittens on "active" and let them all go to homes who will breed from them then you could be hindering the breed and not helping a breed x

From what i have seen there are an amount of breeders who will say no breeding cats on active for 3 years - by 3 years you have a better knowledge of the standards for breeding and showing and would be more knowledgable in knowing who was good type and who certainly wasn't x

Some are also protecting the good lines from being diluted too much, in your breeders case no males on active is more than likely due to this - have they said no girls on active?

As Vicki said, if you don't like it then find a breeder who is willing to let you put male kittens on the active x

I wouldn't sell a breeding kitten to someone who planned to stick every kitten on active x


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

calaco said:


> excuse me
> try reading original post ! lol were does it say buying a kitten !
> this is about a queen going to stud lol
> u have just put your foot in it
> some people they just dont know


Excuse me, you've only just joined, it would maybe be better to be nicer to long standing members, instead of being rude x

You came on to post a very contraversial thread remember  x


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

I'd be interested in hearing about her 2nd to none pedigree. What breeder is she from? 

Yep if you want to keep active cats then yes fair enough, you'll just need a stud owner who is ok with it and i'm sure some are.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Thank you Lou, i'm pleased someone can see my point at least.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

calaco said:


> hi
> as my queen is on the active list so her kittens will be they have the right !
> as i was hoping to keep a male for my other queen in the future
> well the breeder insisted that all male kittens must go on non active list so they cant be used as studs in the future ?what is the breeders problem maybe he just wants to be sole breeder in the north !
> ...


So ALL of your kittens are going onthe active because you think it's your right :


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

raggs said:


> you were talking about restrictions !!!!! the restrictions were in place when you bought the cat so all im stating is you knew this so why complain now, and your posts contradict them selves in one you say your queen is non active then you say she is on the active register


are you just stupid or what
read the original post my queen has no restrictions she is on active list i am not complaining about my cat ok 
i am asking people with common sense what there views are on some breeders who have a stud who sets restrictions is that clear enough for you or dont you understand plain english 
if you have nothing to say on the the subject that makes sense dont post
buddy


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

calaco said:


> are you just stupid or what
> read the original post my queen has no restrictions she is on active list i am not complaining about my cat ok
> i am asking people with common sense what there views are on some breeders who have a stud who sets restrictions is that clear enough for you or dont you understand plain english
> if you have nothing to say on the the subject that makes sense dont post
> buddy


RIGHT! IF you can't be nice then don't post at all!

IF you want peoples advice then post nicely and get some!!


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

People need to remember restrictions are put in place by breeders for very good reasons. It may have taken breeders many years and many generations to achieve the lines that they have , so protecting them is common sence. If you don't like the rules then don't play the game . good luck.........Chris


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

I wouldn't even let you into stud, you must put on some kind of act. what a nasty person you sound. :frown2:


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

LousKoonz said:


> Excuse me, you've only just joined, it would maybe be better to be nicer to long standing members, instead of being rude x
> 
> You came on to post a very contraversial thread remember  x


and your point is ! lol !
long standing members and that gives u the right to try and rip a post apart when all you have to do is read it properly and stop protecting other people with out any sense who has not read the post 
yea lol i guess you own the forum dont think so x


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Biawhiska said:


> I wouldn't even let you into stud, you must put on some kind of act. what a nasty person you sound. :frown2:


Oh boy , i sure do agree with this statement lol


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Chill out calaco:thumbup1: - people are trying to help - threads always end up wending and weaving around a subject - some people are going to agree with you and some people aren't. If you take the time to be nice and ask questions to clarify stand points people here will take the time to answer you the best they can. There are some very experienced breeders on here with fantastic levels of knowledge, experience and expertise. If you are rude to them you shoot yourself in the foot as no-one will answer you for fear of getting abused. 

Maybe if you spoke nicely to the original stud owner and explained that you wanted to keep one of the boys (if you get one of good enough quality) as a stud for yourself only he may let you do that. The reasons for not putting every kitten on the active register is because only 1 in around 10 kittens have that special something that make them worth breeding from to better the breed. No point breedding kittens with faults. If your queen is on active that's because her breeder considered her good enough to carry on the breed, the stud will be the same - but it doesn't automatically follow that every kitten produced is as good. Genetics is a wierd and fascinating subject. 

So, allow us to help you and hopefully you will also become a valued member of the forum like those you are harranging now.


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

calaco said:


> and your point is ! lol !
> long standing members and that gives u the right to try and rip a post apart when all you have to do is read it properly and stop protecting other people with out any sense who has not read the post
> yea lol i guess you own the forum dont think so x


Oh LMAO!!

You're actually seriously funny aren't you :lol::lol: x


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Why should a breeder let their line go which they may have taken years to achieve? Think about it. 

As you've said you've found other studs so best take you super girl to one of those. I still would like to know about her 2nd to none pedigree. Would you care to share?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think some have got the wrong end of the stick.

The stud owner has placed restrictions, in that any males born of that mating should not be sold on the active, this is quite common in order to "protect" lines.
Health isn't usually an issue it is usually more about money, though sometimes it is about not selling cats willy nilly to all and sundry on the active.

However most breeders *will *let you keep a boy from the mating for your own use, have you asked him about that?


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

spid said:


> Chill out calaco:thumbup1: - people are trying to help - threads always end up wending and weaving around a subject - some people are going to agree with you and some people aren't. If you take the time to be nice and ask questions to clarify stand points people here will take the time to answer you the best they can.* There are some very experienced breeders on here with fantastic levels of knowledge, experience and expertise. If you are rude to them you shoot yourself in the foot as no-one will answer you for fear of getting abused. *
> 
> Maybe if you spoke nicely to the original stud owner and explained that you wanted to keep one of the boys (if you get one of good enough quality) as a stud for yourself only he may let you do that. The reasons for not putting every kitten on the active register is because only 1 in around 10 kittens have that special something that make them worth breeding from to better the breed. No point breedding kittens with faults. If your queen is on active that's because her breeder considered her good enough to carry on the breed, the stud will be the same - but it doesn't automatically follow that every kitten produced is as good. Genetics is a wierd and fascinating subject.
> 
> So, allow us to help you and hopefully you will also become a valued member of the forum like those you are harranging now.


wouldn't call it fear hun LOL x

Good post x


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Perhaps with a little more experience under their belt they will begin to understand why breedeers impose restrictions. as for you're cats 2 seconds and a third at her first show i congratulate you, but one swallow doesn't make a summer.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Every breeder that I have been to about a Stud all had these restrictions, I thought it was just 'standard' to protect lines?

Some however, if you chat to them let you sell them on active after the cat is 2years old, some say you can keep a cat on active.

to be honest its up to the breeder really isnt it?

I have full contracts on my kittens, pets and active (If I ever decide to sell one on active) As I want the best for my kits, If they dont agree with my views, then go look elsewhere Id rather keep a kitten for 10months then sell it to a 2nd rate home in 10mins!


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

calaco said:


> hi
> i have a female queen siamese in heat and i was going to use a breeder with a stud !
> untill he told me there was restrictions ie ! i could not sell any of the male kittens as studs they would have to be registered on the non active list !
> i just cant get my head round this as he was charging £200 to stud and after all it is my queen who i will have to feed and look after the kittens and pay the vet bills.
> ...


It's only the males you can't register in the active register? It's OK to sell females on the active register? In that case I'd think it's reasonable. One reason for only restricting males is that males are usually the cats that can create lots of problem in a breed if used wrongly. I'm talking about excessive breeding on a stud. If a stud is allowed to sire many litters there's a risk for creating inbreeding problems in the future and if he turns out to have some kind of hereditary disease later on there'll be many offspring he could have passed it on to.

Females are much, much harder to abuse in that way.

For a normal sized litter £200 would be a great price, IMO. The normal stud fee here in Sweden would be the double (if you get 4 kittens, we usually pay a sum for each live kitten).

To me, the stud owners restrictions and price isn't strange or unacceptable at all.

It's true that it's the owner of the female that takes the biggest risk, pay for the care of the kittens and that'll have to do all the practical work with the kittens but keeping a stud isn't easy. Studs can be a pain in the a** and the owner has expences, except from the daily expences there are health tests (sometimes) and show costs.

I don't think you can fully appreciate the work stud owners take on until you've had a really annoying stud yourself.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> Every breeder that I have been to about a Stud all had these restrictions, I thought it was just 'standard' to protect lines?
> 
> Some however, if you chat to them let you sell them on active after the cat is 2years old, some say you can keep a cat on active.
> 
> ...


I agree with you totally.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

aww thanks!


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> aww thanks!


:wink::wink::wink::wink:


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I think some have got the wrong end of the stick.
> 
> The stud owner has placed restrictions, in that any males born of that mating should not be sold on the active, this is quite common in order to "protect" lines.
> Health isn't usually an issue it is usually more about money, though sometimes it is about not selling cats willy nilly to all and sundry on the active.
> ...


hi lauren
thankyou for reading my post
i tel the owner of the stud and he insisted if i breed my queen with his stud all male kittens will have to go on non active ? but all my females can go on ative even if i keep any of the males?
does this make sense or is it just the money side of things as there is only 1 breeder in my area ? local but i can find better studs further a field with no restrictions 
kind regards


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> It's only the males you can't register in the active register? It's OK to sell females on the active register? In that case I'd think it's reasonable. One reason for only restricting males is that males are usually the cats that can create lots of problem in a breed if used wrongly. I'm talking about excessive breeding on a stud. If a stud is allowed to sire many litters there's a risk for creating inbreeding problems in the future and if he turns out to have some kind of hereditary disease later on there'll be many offspring he could have passed it on to.
> 
> Females are much, much harder to abuse in that way.
> 
> ...


LOL at annoying stud, have to agree though on it from experience, i'm glad my studs are closed though!

How much do you pay then per each kitten, if you don't mind me asking?
Sorry to deter thread but it's something i haven't heard of xx


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## poshcats (May 17, 2008)

calaco said:


> hi biawhiska
> thanks for your reply
> i have just thought that my self ! and even better i have just been offered a male siamese kitten on the non active list from another breeder for a little bit more money ! sounds good just my female needs a stud now
> kind regards


So why does a male kitten on the non active sound good??? Are you considering buying a pet kitten for breeding in the future???
I really think , you need to think about what you are doing I have to pay up £350 to go to stud and have restrictions placed on male offspring!!

Lynne


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

poshcats said:


> So why does a male kitten on the non active sound good??? Are you considering buying a pet kitten for breeding in the future???
> I really think , you need to think about what you are doing I have to pay up £350 to go to stud and have restrictions placed on male offspring!!
> 
> Lynne


I just saw this to, if you have a non active stud.......... your kits cant be reg'd?


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

LousKoonz said:


> LOL at annoying stud, have to agree though on it from experience, i'm glad my studs are closed though!
> 
> How much do you pay then per each kitten, if you don't mind me asking?
> Sorry to deter thread but it's something i haven't heard of xx


I still haven't recovered from my last stud... he was absolutely adorable, social, sweet ad cosy and he was a BEAST! So much urine and so large lungs in such a small body.

The standard stud fee here is £80 per live kitten. There's also often a housing fee on £80.


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> I still haven't recovered from my last stud... he was absolutely adorable, social, sweet ad cosy and he was a BEAST! So much urine and so large lungs in such a small body.
> 
> The standard stud fee here is £80 per live kitten. There's also often a housing fee on £80.


Ok something else new - housing fee? lol x
Know what you mean, one of mine is all lungs, he chirps quietly when he's happy, he HOWLS at me when he wants something!! :cryin::blink: x


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

LousKoonz said:


> LOL at annoying stud, have to agree though on it from experience, i'm glad my studs are closed though!
> 
> How much do you pay then per each kitten, if you don't mind me asking?
> Sorry to deter thread but it's something i haven't heard of xx


I thought that was interesting too but didn't like to interrupt this thread (it's been so exciting lol)
As for restrictions - I thought they were pretty common place. I have found a potential stud for Mai Tai who has a restriction on any kitten on the active register unless I keep a girl for myself. I don't object to that at all.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

lordy that's expensive - i've just paid £100 for MInnii to stud - seems normal for Birmans. If I go to an imp gr ch I think it goes up to around £130 0r £150. Also no kittens, no fee with most.

EDIT: on the placing kittens on active or not - if was just me assessing I'd have to go for non-active as I am so new to this - learning but still a rookie. Luckily I have help to hand to guide me and if they said good enough quality then fair enough but the home would also have to measure up in extra ways too - can't see the point of putting a cat on active just because you can. If I thought the kitten was good enough but the owners weren't sure I'd start off on non-active and they could ask me to change it later (I believe this is possible?). Better safe than sorry. i'd hate for someone to come back to me and get cross cos I'd sold a kitten on active and so should be great quality and then it bummed at shows or produced awful kittens - it would be my fault for not assessing properly (in my view).


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

LousKoonz said:


> Ok something else new - housing fee? lol x
> Know what you mean, one of mine is all lungs, he chirps quietly when he's happy, he HOWLS at me when he wants something!! :cryin::blink: x


Yeah, a fee for housing the female. Basically for cleaning the room before and after the mating, grooming (if needed) and such things.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I think some stud owners place restrictions on what actives you can register from their boys for reasons stated of protectiing the gene pool etc, however, from my experience they are few and far between. The vast majority do it to protect show success and/or business for their stud - hence the reason given of not being sold within 200 mile radius. That's a business decision pure and simple.

If a stud owner allows active girls, but not boys then again, that is business - randomly selling active girls that carry the same genes as the boy and potentially could have litters of boys all of whom are sold as active does nothing to protect the gene pool.

The GCCF do not recognise any restrictions placed by a stud owner. If you go into stud and are not asked to sign anything agreeing to any restrictions BEFORE the deed is done, then legally there is nothing that can be done either.

The studs I have used that have had restrictions, the stud owner did not inform me first, they were just written on the mating certificate. In one instance it was stud I had used previously when he had no restrictions. I have abided by those restrictions, and when I did want to keep a boy on the active asked the stud owner first and they agreed. If you don't sign anything before hand, then its just a gentlewoman's agreement.


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## poshcats (May 17, 2008)

spid said:


> lordy that's expensive - i've just paid £100 for MInnii to stud - seems normal for Birmans. If I go to an imp gr ch I think it goes up to around £130 0r £150. Also no kittens, no fee with most.


Well your are lucky Maine coons I have pad £300 stud fee and Egyptian Maus are £350!! Although I have heard that you can pay up to £500 for the Maus

Lynne
x


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

poshcats said:


> Well your are lucky Maine coons I have pad £300 stud fee and Egyptian Maus are £350!! Although I have heard that you can pay up to £500 for the Maus
> 
> Lynne
> x


don't I know it!


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> Yeah, a fee for housing the female. Basically for cleaning the room before and after the mating, grooming (if needed) and such things.


Corr, best keep that to yourself, if too many english breeders see it it'll be another idea for them :lol: x

Thank you for explaining it for me  xx


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

The Bengals Studs I have found Start at £350----£1,000

The one I am using is in the middle of that!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

how much is that compared to the price of a kitten? Birmans - it's between a 1/3 and 1/4. Kittens selling at around £350 - £450 depending on lines etc.

(opps second hijack of this thread)


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## bluechip (Dec 26, 2008)

i paid £150 for my girls to go to stud but would have paid more if asked.

i like to think if my girls are going out to stud then i want them to go with a good line, and if this means i had to pay extra then i would.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> The Bengals Studs I have found Start at £350----£1,000
> 
> The one I am using is in the middle of that!


....HOLY MOLY !!!!!!!!!!


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

lymorelynn said:


> I thought that was interesting too but didn't like to interrupt this thread (it's been so exciting lol)
> As for restrictions - I thought they were pretty common place. I have found a potential stud for Mai Tai who has a restriction on any kitten on the active register unless I keep a girl for myself. I don't object to that at all.


LMAO @ so exciting


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## bluechip (Dec 26, 2008)

i just think if you don't like the restrictions set them find a new stud.

like i said in the first place i am happy to put my kittens on the non active list as i don't feel i am that experienced to put a cat on the active but everyone is different, and will do breeding there way.


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## Toby & Darwin (May 26, 2008)

lymorelynn said:


> I thought that was interesting too but didn't like to interrupt this thread (it's been so exciting lol)
> As for restrictions - I thought they were pretty common place. I have found a potential stud for Mai Tai who has a restriction on any kitten on the active register unless I keep a girl for myself. I don't object to that at all.


that is great Lynn.
I paid £200 for Rosie's stud and all kittens must be non active unless there is a girl good enough for me to keep - then the stud owner will give me written consent.
I have no objections to that either - it also takes the pressure off when people ask you for a kitten on the active.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

poshcats said:


> Well your are lucky Maine coons I have pad £300 stud fee and Egyptian Maus are £350!! Although I have heard that you can pay up to £500 for the Maus


Is that because the kittens go for more than average as well though. Especially maybe Maus where there aren't loads of breeders around.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Some stud owners have their own restrictions placed on them, some aren't allowed to let their boy be at public stud, some aren't allowed to sell kittens on the active from the boy, or only to sell breeding kittens from him abroad.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Just another question. Several people on here have mentioned good lines, good pedigrees, titles etc, implying those are comensurate with the studs quality and hence stud fee charged, but what really makes a good stud, and how do you equate that level of quality with the stud fee ?

For instance should a highly titled cat automatically demand a higher stud fee ? Just because he himself looks great doesn't necessarily means he replicates that in his kittens, or that he consistently produces healthy kittens.

From what I have heard in Europe they have a basic stud fee plus extra depending on the number of kittens in the litter.


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## bluechip (Dec 26, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Just another question. Several people on here have mentioned good lines, good pedigrees, titles etc, implying those are comensurate with the studs quality and hence stud fee charged, but what really makes a good stud, and how do you equate that level of quality with the stud fee ?
> 
> For instance should a highly titled cat automatically demand a higher stud fee ? Just because he himself looks great doesn't necessarily means he replicates that in his kittens, or that he consistently produces healthy kittens.
> 
> From what I have heard in Europe they have a basic stud fee plus extra depending on the number of kittens in the litter.


well i think if you look into what the stud has already sired and he has had good show kittens and so on from litters then i think that is when the stud owner will charge more.

i don't know just i look in to the stud and what he has sired but i did not pay over the odds with the stud my girls went to and found a great friend whilst doing so, who helps me and guides me loads.


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

I do wish potential new breeders such as Calaco appears to be would do a bit of research or perhaps attend breed club seminars before going into breeding - if so they would realise all about the possibilities of restrictions etc, gain knowledge of pattern/colour predictions, checking pedigrees and so on. Or at the least ask the breeder of the cat you have bought on the active if they will mentor you.

I have had restrictions on two of stud boys I have used for my girls but understood the stud owners reasons and was quite happy to abide by them; I obviously could have chosen to go elsewhere but as I particularly liked the type (and pedigree) of the boys involved I was happy to agree. I was told that I could have kept a girl myself for breeding if I wanted to but just couldn't sell any on the active.

Calaco - don't forget to check your girl's pedigree with the potential stud boy's to ensure they are compatible and there are no health problems in that particular line. You should also check to see if the stud owner requires your girl to have a blood test before being allowed into the boy.

As to stud fees - it varies greatly in the Raggies but you are looking generally from £300+ (have heard of someone paying in the region of £700 stud fee).


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think it is all about market forces. People charge the fee they can get away with

If you live in an area full of breeders with no studs of their own, or have a really beautiful boy, or have a boy with sought after lines then you can command a higher price. If you live in the back of beyond your price probably will be lower no matter how good your boy is, as fewer will want to travel the distance.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

When choosing a good stud for you're prized queen there's so much homework that has to be done, some people will just jump into breeding without doing any research at all, their queen will have one litter and all of a sudden they are the best breeders in the uk, they need to wake up and smell the coffee, there's so much to learn before you should even think of putting you're queen with Mr Tom.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

raggs said:


> ....HOLY MOLY !!!!!!!!!!


I know thats what I thought!!

It all depends on coat/pattern/colour/pedigree

I also dont charge alot for my kittens I am 'cheaper' if you like than most breeders, even though I use good pedigrees, but I dont think its all about whats in the line, but the health/looks/temp of the cat itself.

If my cat is missing something then I look for a cat with it etc to improve the breed. I also want to show, which is my choice so why should buyers pay for that?

I lose alot of money but I refuse to charge more ,I barely cover the essentials! I think its not about that, I want them to be available for everyone not just people who can afford really Expensive cats!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

ChinaBlue said:


> I do wish potential new breeders such as Calaco appears to be would do a bit of research or perhaps attend breed club seminars before going into breeding - if so they would realise all about the possibilities of restrictions etc, gain knowledge of pattern/colour predictions, checking pedigrees and so on. Or at the least ask the breeder of the cat you have bought on the active if they will mentor you.


I don't think there was anything in the OPs posts to suggest they hadn't done any research before getting into breeding. After all another breeder trusted them with an active girl.

I have been to a number of breed seminars and restrictions have never been discussed. I only started breeding in 2002, and at that time there were very few siamese/oriental studs with restrictions. Thats obviously not the case for all breeds, but I think restrictions within my breeds have become a fashion. Once one person does it, everyone starts doing it.

I don't disagree with restrictions, as long as they are placed for the 'right' reasons ie to protect the gene pool and future of the breed, and they are fully disclosed, documented and agreed to before hand. If it is purely to protect the stud owners business, then no sorry I do not think there is a place for those.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

i think the OP has left the thread


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I don't think they have, but if they did I would not blame them, I think some of the replies have been a tad OTT.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> I think some of the replies have been a tad OTT.


So do I, I don't think she ever said she was a new breeder, nor someone who hadn't done any research.


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

Saikou said:


> I don't think they have, but if they did I would not blame them, I think some of the replies have been a tad OTT.


hi saikou
thankyou for your comments very much appreciated i just want to point out ref to your post above
my queen has been to the local vet and had the FeLV and FIV test and is all clear so she will be going away for easter as for the pedigree matching up i have found another stud they are both perfect male chocolate point female chocolate point 
no relatives on any side both have plenty of champions and grande champions no ilness also no restrictions on the studs side so thats good i have taken all your advice on board thank you again
kind regards


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> So do I, I don't think she ever said she was a new breeder, nor someone who hadn't done any research.


hi lauren
yep you are right i never said i was a new breeder im just new to this forum
kind regards


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

ChinaBlue said:


> I do wish potential new breeders such as Calaco appears to be would do a bit of research or perhaps attend breed club seminars before going into breeding - if so they would realise all about the possibilities of restrictions etc, gain knowledge of pattern/colour predictions, checking pedigrees and so on. Or at the least ask the breeder of the cat you have bought on the active if they will mentor you.
> 
> I have had restrictions on two of stud boys I have used for my girls but understood the stud owners reasons and was quite happy to abide by them; I obviously could have chosen to go elsewhere but as I particularly liked the type (and pedigree) of the boys involved I was happy to agree. I was told that I could have kept a girl myself for breeding if I wanted to but just couldn't sell any on the active.
> 
> ...


hi china 
thanks for your info i have just replied to you on some one elses post oops
sorry


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## poshcats (May 17, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Is that because the kittens go for more than average as well though. Especially maybe Maus where there aren't loads of breeders around.


My Pet Maine Coons are £375 and Maus are £450. There are hardly any breeders in Scotland!

Lynne
x


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

ChinaBlue said:


> I do wish potential new breeders such as Calaco appears to be would do a bit of research or perhaps attend breed club seminars before going into breeding - if so they would realise all about the possibilities of restrictions etc, gain knowledge of pattern/colour predictions, checking pedigrees and so on. Or at the least ask the breeder of the cat you have bought on the active if they will mentor you.
> 
> I have had restrictions on two of stud boys I have used for my girls but understood the stud owners reasons and was quite happy to abide by them; I obviously could have chosen to go elsewhere but as I particularly liked the type (and pedigree) of the boys involved I was happy to agree. I was told that I could have kept a girl myself for breeding if I wanted to but just couldn't sell any on the active.
> 
> ...


hi chinablue
thankyou for your comments very much appreciated i just want to point out ref to your post above
my queen has been to the local vet and had the FeLV and FIV test and is all clear so she will be going away for easter as for the pedigree matching up i have found another stud they are both perfect male chocolate point female chocolate point 
no relatives on any side both have plenty of champions and grande champions no ilness also no restrictions on the studs side so thats good i have taken all your advice on board thank you again
kind regards


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

spid said:


> how much is that compared to the price of a kitten? Birmans - it's between a 1/3 and 1/4. Kittens selling at around £350 - £450 depending on lines etc.
> 
> (opps second hijack of this thread)


A purebred cat here typically costs £480-£560. Depends on the breed and if sold as pet or for breeding but somewhere around those numbers.


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

I apologise for assuming you were new to breeding! I hope everything goes well for you and your girl and look forward to seeing photos of kits in due course!

I have to say our breed club seminars/workshops tend to be quite good and cover the whole array of issues involved in the breeding side of things...keeping a stud, paperwork, general husbandry, restrictions, what to look for in a queen and so on and also have a section for pet owners who may be interested i.e. demonstrating grooming, claw clipping, etc.


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

ChinaBlue said:


> I apologise for assuming you were new to breeding! I hope everything goes well for you and your girl and look forward to seeing photos of kits in due course!
> 
> I have to say our breed club seminars/workshops tend to be quite good and cover the whole array of issues involved in the breeding side of things...keeping a stud, paperwork, general husbandry, restrictions, what to look for in a queen and so on and also have a section for pet owners who may be interested i.e. demonstrating grooming, claw clipping, etc.


Hi,

Your breed club sounds great, its nice to hear about a club that goes all out to help breeders and pet owners.

Izzie


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

calaco said:


> hi
> as my queen is on the active list so her kittens will be they have the right !
> as i was hoping to keep a male for my other queen in the future
> well the breeder insisted that all male kittens must go on non active list so they cant be used as studs in the future ?what is the breeders problem maybe he just wants to be sole breeder in the north !
> ...


This is very common. I don't agree with it and won't do it. Even if my new boy fulifilled his early promise and became an Imperial and UK Grand Champion (alas it now looks unlikely that he will even make Champion) I would not use restrictions. The gene pool is far too small already, it needs opening up, not closing further!

Liz


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

That seems very low for a stud fee - I've not heard of anything much less than £150 these days. Burmese and Asians seem to average £200 or so. Over £500 is utterly ridiculous though!



spid said:


> how much is that compared to the price of a kitten? Birmans - it's between a 1/3 and 1/4. Kittens selling at around £350 - £450 depending on lines etc.
> 
> (opps second hijack of this thread)


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> That seems very low for a stud fee - I've not heard of anything much less than £150 these days. Burmese and Asians seem to average £200 or so. Over £500 is utterly ridiculous though!


I was surprised but that seem to be the norm - £100 - £150. I've used two studs at £100 now (the first is even offering to return the fee after two matings as Minnii didn't conceive) and have contacted some very prominent Birman breeders and the most I was quoted was £150 (I think for an Esaya boy - can't remember precisely). I've got potential use of an Imp Gr Ch for £130 too (if plans work out). £30 for the Imp bit I think.


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## calaco (Apr 8, 2009)

lizward said:


> This is very common. I don't agree with it and won't do it. Even if my new boy fulifilled his early promise and became an Imperial and UK Grand Champion (alas it now looks unlikely that he will even make Champion) I would not use restrictions. The gene pool is far too small already, it needs opening up, not closing further!
> 
> Liz[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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