# Which tank/ what size to upgrade to?



## Dibblersan

As of today (26th) I've got a new (to me, it's second hand) tank arriving on Tuesday. 

I'm hoping people will help me with my list of things I need to do/ buy to disrupt my little seakittens as little as possible. 

Please see page 2 for details of what I have and for updates as things happen.

Thank you.


Original question - I need/ want to upgrade my tank. My fish are growing and they're going to need some more space soon. I'm not sure what size is best or if there're real differences between the brands. 

I've currently got a 100L tank with potted plants and 2x 200L filters to create a current. 

My tank is currently stocked with:

3 loaches (Juvenile c.5cm)
8 minnows
1 black moor (c.12cm)
1 goldfish (c.14cm)
3 swan clams
5 ghost shrimp
1 dwarf African clawed frog (c.5cm)

Given my residents, I'm after something with more footprint than height, and would prefer something on the square size than very long. 

Any suggestions? Budget under £500 to perhaps £750 if it was perfect fitted and delivered with no flat pack involved.


----------



## NaomiM

For that stock, I'd say you're looking at around 350l or more, which probably means a 5' tank. I'm assuming the loaches are weather loaches and the goldfish is a common goldfish.

A couple of other observations on your stock:
-Is is a dwarf frog or a clawed frog? The clawed ones are predatory and are best kept in a species-only tank as they will attack and eat fish.
-Common goldfish get huge - I'd consider rehoming it to a pond if possible.
-Both types of goldfish may end up eating the minnows as they grow.

A couple of tanks that may be suitable:
Bullet Shaped Fish Tank Aquarium 390 Litres - 150cm 5ft - Four Colours - All Pond Solutions - All Pond Solutions
Juwel Rio 300 Aquarium & Cabinet

Hope that helps!


----------



## Dibblersan

Hi, Thanks. 

The goldfish were a recent emergency edition as my mother in laws dog recently smashed her tank. I think they're stunted already as they're about 4 years old and aren't the size I'd expect. 

I was told it was 'clawed dwarf', but its not got webbing on front feet so looking at it I think it's a clawed.

The loach are two weather loach and a 'golden loach' which has a sucking mouth so I think it's an algae eater. 

The photo isn't great, but its a nice pic of Oscar (the frog). Sam (the loach) doesn't want to show his face. 

I'd be happy to get a 350l, but might consider splitting them in two. 

How does this sound: 

100l two goldfish and frog

140l loach, minnows and shrimp

Clams split between them.


----------



## NaomiM

The 140l sounds fine. I'm not sure about the frog with the goldfish - everything I've read about ACF's says they should be kept in species-only tanks, but I don't know anyone with personal experience of them. 100l is a little small for 2 goldfish - could you stretch to a second 140l, and consider re-homing the common goldfish to a pond come summer time and maybe replacing with another fancy?


----------



## Dibblersan

Sounds like a plan. 

I'd like to rehome both goldfish then I could get a new tank just for oscar. Just means I need to get to know someone in Cardiff with a taste for goldfish or a pond. 

A little annoyed at the guy at the pet store as he sold me Oscar as a sociable little frog that would only grow a couple of inches - not something that would eat anything it could fit in his mouth and would grow the size of a fist...he is cute though.

Edit: just to check- my goldfish (blonde) looks like the one in your picture (sunbeam?). Is that what you mean by common goldfish?


----------



## NaomiM

Black moors are fancy goldfish and won't survive winter temperatures in a pond, so you'll need to find someone with a large coldwater tank if you want to rehome him. The common, on the other hand, will do great in a pond 

My Sunbeam was a lemon or yellow goldfish, which is just a colour variety of common goldfish.

Getting Oscar his own tank sounds like a great idea  And in my experience, many pet shop staff will tell you anything just to make a sale. When I was starting out, I asked what fish and tank would be suitable for a beginner, and was advised to get a 14l starter set with 2 goldfish! I soon learned of my mistake when they became ill within a week, and upgraded to a larger tank, but was too late to save them


----------



## labradrk

As mentioned, the Clawed Frog is definitely no with fish. How irresponsible of the shop to sell him for a community aquarium. Either they are mistaking it for an African Dwarf frog or they just don't know what they are talking about. I just wish these places didn't sell amphibs without knowing anything about them.


----------



## Dibblersan

I took Oscar back to the shop today. 

No refund - didn't really expect one, but I don't think I would have been able to take care of him in the longer run if he's going to grow the size I've been reading. Hopefully he'll be happier somewhere else. 

I've talked to the MIL and she's going to take the goldfish back in the future soon. We discussed finding a pond for blonde and she wasn't against the idea. 

So, I'm back to minnows, loach, clams and shrimp. Much happier. 

Will still want to buy a bigger tank for the loach in the future, but for now they're still babies. 

As an aside. When I took Oscar back the guy offered me a discount on a complete set up for an axolotl. 60l tank, heater, pump and axolotl for £100. I said no thanks.

Thanks for all your help.


----------



## swelluk

We have a great range of fish tanks which come supplied with pumps and filter. these are divided up into size and brand, so you should be able to see what you are looking for.


----------



## Dibblersan

Erm... I may perhaps be the proud owner of a 360L ex-marine tank that's arriving on Tuesday. 

*frantically clearing space as I type* 

Will need a good clean - someone recommended Milton? - then I think the fish might be in for a shock...

Cause I only had little fish before I ended up with the goldfish I only had a small 45L quarantine tank. I didn't want to put blonde in there. 

With blonde sick I can clean up and set up this tank - using one of the filters from the 100L to speed up the process, then move all the other fish out for blonde to get better in peace. 

3.5 ft x 2.5 ft x 1.5 ft. 

And tips on how you get to the bottom of a 2.5 ft tank on a 2.5 ft stand? It's almost taller than me...


----------



## NaomiM

:thumbup: Brilliant news! *jealous* 

And once the sick fish is better, you could use the 100l for the minnows and shrimp, to avoid them becoming tasty snacks when the goldfish get bigger 



> And tips on how you get to the bottom of a 2.5 ft tank on a 2.5 ft stand? It's almost taller than me...


Um, a longer gravel vac? Or stand on a chair! :lol:


----------



## magpie

NaomiM said:


> Dibblersan said:
> 
> 
> 
> And tips on how you get to the bottom of a 2.5 ft tank on a 2.5 ft stand? It's almost taller than me...
> 
> 
> 
> Um, a longer gravel vac? Or stand on a chair! :lol:
Click to expand...

Lol, I have to stand on a chair to clean my 500L tank, and I still can't reach the bottom! 
I have a long gravel vac and a cleaning sponge on a stick to wipe the glass


----------



## Dibblersan

Lol.

Hopefully I'm under stocking it until my fishes grow. I'm not sure how long I'll have the goldfish as I'm still waiting on MIL to sort a new tank and haven't found a friendly pond yet ( well I tell a lie, I've been offered a spot for blondie in Sweden, but I declined with thanks.)

I was hoping for some advice/ comments on my plans for the next few weeks.

So far (to fit around work) I've got:

Tank arrives *Tuesday*
Payday also *Tuesday* 

Wash out with dilute Milton on *Wednesday*. 
Add sand, under substrate food for plants (called?) *Wednesday*

Add rocks and plants *Wednesday/Thursday *
Half fill with water and check for leaks. *Thursday*

Fill and treat with water conditioner, prime, stress coat and/or aquarium salt? *Friday*
Add (some?) ammonia and gravel/spare filter from current tank *Friday* morning. 
Water test *Friday* afternoon (oh will have to do this) 
Add some ammonia *Friday* afternoon and water test *Friday* night

Add second filter and most of fish (not blondie) either *Saturday or Sunday* (or Monday/ Tuesday/ Wednesday) depending latest results.

*Currently own:*

Melafix
Tap water conditioner (but not enough left for 360l) 
2 x 200l in tank filters - one with spray bar
Some sand
Some plants
One submersible led bar light (about a foot long)

*I think I need to buy:*

Aquarium salt 
Prime (couldn't get to the shop yet)
Esha2000
Stress coat
More tap water conditioner (perhaps by the gallon on the Internet)
Sand (a couple of big sacks of - playground sand?)
A long gravel vac 
An external canister filter (?) the tank has a sump, but I don't know how they work or what they are
Better lights ( but low power use for preference) or moss rather than plants
Plant substrate
Timers
Anything else?

Oh, I do also want something else - I'm very demanding but grateful - I want to know about the little shower head style things to make the top section of water fast for the little fish and help aerate the tank a bit.

Recommendations for the best places to buy online and the best types of these things gratefully received.


----------



## Peapet

Hi, just wanted to say prime, stress coat and water conditioner are all the same thing! Prime is the most concentrated, so lasts longer. I use 8 drops in 10ltr bucket.

The only plant I have in my cold water tank is java fern. I don't use any plant substrate or ferts.

I use an interpet gravel cleaner, the xl has a 26" tube.

You might struggle with low power lights as the tank is so deep. I've got cheap LEDs on one tank, but the other two have t8's.

Im not sure what you mean by shower head thing? I only know internal/external filters, powerheads and air pumps! Filters should provide enough flow for the water to absorb oxygen


----------



## Dibblersan

Peapet said:


> Hi, just wanted to say prime, stress coat and water conditioner are all the same thing! Prime is the most concentrated, so lasts longer. I use 8 drops in 10ltr bucket.


Thank you. Everyone recommends something different but for different things - prime was recommended here and elsewhere for neutralising ammonia, stress coat rather than the salt I normally use to relax the fish after a new introduction or a move, and water conditioner for just chlorine.

If its the best value I'll just get the prime and some salt (I've kept fish for a while and I've only ever used salt and melafix for everything)



> The only plant I have in my cold water tank is java fern. I don't use any plant substrate or ferts.


I was looking at java fern and moss. I was thinking about growing some mats of it for covering the back of my tank. Are they both cold and fresh water? I thought if you didn't use substrate you had to add co2 or liquid carbon?



> I use an interpet gravel cleaner, the xl has a 26" tube.


I need to get one of these. I've always just relied on my loaches to stir up the bottom for me. They do so seem to enjoy it. That and over filtering has always kept it clean before now.



> You might struggle with low power lights as the tank is so deep. I've got cheap LEDs on one tank, but the other two have t8's.


See, now, lights. Lights I have no idea about. I bought some white LEDs as they're apparently bright output, but cheap and low wattage to run. Any advice would be great.

Edit to add: 2W 30-LED White Light Aquarium Submersible Lamp (AC 220~240V / 2-Flat-Pin Plug) - Free Shipping - DealExtreme this is what I've got so far - I think mines a little longer and cost a fair bit more from my not very good LFS.



> Im not sure what you mean by shower head thing? I only know internal/external filters, powerheads and air pumps! Filters should provide enough flow for the water to absorb oxygen


Yes, power heads - make me think power showers. The strong one directional flow.

If I bought this - All Pond Solutions - 2000EF Aquarium External Filter - All Pond Solutions does it need a power head to pump the water to it or will it make a flow by itself?

Also, if I had this outflow pointed at a less than 10 degree angle across the front of the tank, do you think would this give suitable fast flow for my wcmm to be happy while not distressing my fancy goldfish too much?

I could probably fit a bar to it to spread the flow out a bit, or buy a couple of extra power heads just to make the water move across an area

Sorry - i know its a lot. I need to get the tank established fairly quick to make a quiet space for my sick fish, so I really need to think about what I need to get/want to do with the tank as fast as practical while knowing little to nothing about tanks of this scale. :blink:


----------



## nickmcmechan

I have java fern to the rear of my tank, attached to charcoal bamboo shelters for the shrimp to hide in, there is a decoration to the left, to which I've attached 11 Anubias Barterie var Nana, gold and petite, some stones to the right. At the very right I have planted crypt wendtii and to the from I have about 12 mats of fissidens Fontanus (more expensive than java moss but the end result will be better). On the surface I have Amazonian Frogbit

All in a low light tank, 23l dosed with 1ml of Tropica NPK+ per week and a 10% water change per week.

Fauna is currently some cherry shrimp, a nerite snail for the algae and an assassin snail for the pond snails imported with plants. Future stocking will include a show quality betta splendens.

Hope that gives you some future ideas for stocking your tank?


----------



## Peapet

I used to use stress coat before I found prime. Obviously it's up to you, but no good wasting money on another water conditioner when stress coat or prime do the same job!

It's harder to keep plants in cold water if you've got fish that will eat them! I've only got java fern in with my oranda and I don't add any co2 or plant food.

I really don't know about the lights. I've got 2x30 led strips on an 18" deep tank and they don't provide much light. It depends how much light you want? The only thing I can suggest is to try your existing light when you've filled the tank and see how much light it provides. Lights aren't necessary when you first setup, they could wait. Maybe get a standard t8. You don't need to have them on that long, around 5-6hrs.

I haven't got an external, but magpie has a large cold water tank perhaps PM?! They have 2 tubes, usually put 1 at each end of the tank. One sucks up the water to filter then put back through other. You shouldn't need a powerhead, but can use if you want. Or again set it up and if you don't think there's enough flow you can add one later.

Depending on the size of fancy goldfish, your wcmm might start disappearing! 
If you're setting the tank up for fancies, I would do it to suit them. Depending on how long you've had the wcmm's, the lifespan is about 2yrs. Personally I wouldn't keep them in the same tank.

Hope I've helped a bit and maybe someone else can advise on the filter and lights


----------



## magpie

I have 2 external filters for my goldfish tank, one at each end, both with spray bars pointed slightly towards the surface to create plenty of agitation. The All pond solutions filter you've linked to doesn't need a power head (and will come with a spray bar if you want to use it), and I think an extra power head might be a bit much for fancy goldfish - they don't like too much flow as they're not terribly graceful or streamlined creatures! 

I know nothing about lighting! All I can say is that I have 4 t8 tubes on the goldfish tank (though I generally only have 2 on at a time), and despite the tank being, I think about 20 inches deep, my plants are all doing pretty well actually. I don't have anything terribly demanding in there, especially as the goldfish tend to eat quite a lot of it... just java fern & java moss on bogwood, some elodea densa, elodea crispa, hornwort and something else that I'm not too sure what it is! I don't currently add any co2 or plant food to the tank.

Definitely go with Prime as a water conditioner, you only have to use a tiny amount, so it lasts ages


----------



## Dibblersan

Thanks for all your help. 

I bought prime today. 250ml, so hopefully will last a while. I've also got some ammonia ready for set up, and I've been looking around the park for some nice wood to soak in the garden for a while. I've been thinking I might leave the 100l set up with my plants so its ready for QT if needed and after soaking a nice piece of wood for a few months invest in some moss and more lights. 

I have no idea what plants I have currently. There's one with big flat oval leaves, one with little oval leaves on long stems, and one with long narrow pointed leaves (like long flat grass) that curls up on itself. I can't say they're verdant, but they've not been eaten yet. 

I could put my light in the tank near the plants so they get more of it? 

I'm going to set the tank up with the two internal filters for now, then I do want to get the external - I think the height of the tank is going to make that a much easier prospect long term. 

I'm hoping to not have the goldfish long term as its my loaches I really like. I'd like to get a couple of hillstream at some point, so the fast flow will suit them and the wcmm


----------



## nickmcmechan

Can you post a pic?


----------

