# Labradors are stupid



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I have been told yet again today that Labradors are notoriously stupid dogs and I'm confused as to where this idea comes from. Surely if they were thick as pig sh*t like so many seem to think they and their crosses wouldn't be so popular as assistance dogs and various other things. Do any other Lab owners get this? Where does this come from? Is it the fact that so may people get a Lab and do sod all with it so there are tons of badly behaved and out of control Labs out there? Or are a lot of the pet Labs really as dumb as a box of rocks?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Because people think that dogs that are head strong and do things they're not taught to do equals intelligence. The old saying Labradors are born half trained, spaniels die half trained, helps to perpetuate the myth that Labradors don't think for themselves. 

Lexilou2 will vouch that Indie had her well trained in under two minutes flat. Mine are all loveable numpties, but they certainly can think for themselves as well, despite being chocolate, the most vilified colour of Labrador!!


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## Freddie and frank (Mar 26, 2012)

:yikes:

I sometimes get "ooh, aren't the chocolate ones the dumbest" and I've even heard "the black ones are the most vicious" :yikes: :lol::lol:

I think it's probably that a lot of people don't do a fat lot with them. 
I've not really taught mine any tricks, but they pick things up quickly and seem intelligent to me when we've done our good citizens scheme and other training.

In fact, Freddie is clever enough to not even attempt to get in the boot unless he smells a treat in my hand. :laugh:


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> despite being chocolate, the most vilified colour of Labrador!!


Yup - I know people that (seriously) wouldn't give a Chocolate house room 

TBH I think there are more intelligent dogs (ones like Poodles especially spring to mind) but they must have to have a certain intelligence to be able to learn the fantastic things they do when they're working in situations like being an assistance dog or a sniffer dog etc

Do you think people think they're not as intelligent as others as you can teach them to do practically anything as they basically just want to please you ???


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Freddie and frank said:


> In fact, Freddie is clever enough to not even attempt to get in the boot unless he smells a treat in my hand. :laugh:


While mine is too stupid to realise I need to open the boot before he can jump in :lol:

Most Labs I've known are grossly overweight and the owners do absolutely nothing with them so it's no wonder they're dull and ploddy and have no interest in really doing anything. Have to admit I find it a bit odd that complete strangers feel the need to tell me that my dog is thick though.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Lilylass said:


> Yup - I know people that (seriously) wouldn't give a Chocolate house room
> 
> TBH I think there are more intelligent dogs (ones like Poodles especially spring to mind) but they must have to have a certain intelligence to be able to learn the fantastic things they do when they're working in situations like being an assistance dog or a sniffer dog etc
> 
> Do you think people think they're not as intelligent as others as you can teach them to do practically anything as they basically just want to please you ???


I think because they're generally a happy go lucky temperament, tend to have a happy grin on their face, and are sociable so run up to other dogs and people to say hello (if you don't train them not to) with said daft grin on their face, people think they're unintelligent, or just intelligent enough to train to do basic things.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Yup - I know people that (seriously) wouldn't give a Chocolate house room
> 
> TBH I think there are more intelligent dogs (ones like Poodles especially spring to mind) but they must have to have a certain intelligence to be able to learn the fantastic things they do when they're working in situations like being an assistance dog or a sniffer dog etc
> 
> Do you think people think they're not as intelligent as others as you can teach them to do practically anything as they basically just want to please you ???


Think you've hit the nail on the head 

If you ask a Lab to do something, most will just do it because it wants to please, or they are incredibly easy to bribe with food.
A Goldie would wonder why you want it to do something and have a good look around before doing it and look suspiciously on any bribe, but still do it because it wants to please
A Chessie would think if it could personally gain anything from the action and if not they'd just not bother. Food bribes can sometimes work if they think the bribe is worth the action required 

Most of the time a Lab has much more fun because they are much easier to train


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

I don't think labs as a breed are stupid or they wouldn't be used for guide dogs or gun dogs. 

I think sometimes people view dogs that are head strong as intelligent but dogs that are more biddable people pleasers as stupid, because they don't seem to have a mind of their own. 

sophie is definitely not the smartest dog out there, and can sometimes get a little confused, but she isn't stupid either, she has recently learned that the jingle of my keys means she is getting out and runs to the door, bit of a pain when I am just moving the things  (I didn't teach her this)


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## Freddie and frank (Mar 26, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> While mine is too stupid to realise I need to open the boot before he can jump in :lol:
> 
> Most Labs I've known are grossly overweight and the owners do absolutely nothing with them so it's no wonder they're dull and ploddy and have no interest in really doing anything. Have to admit I find it a bit odd that complete strangers feel the need to tell me that my dog is thick though.


Same here, all the labs I know around here are mostly overweight, and ploddy. I even had someone say, I like them chunky  There's no telling some people. 
I was jogging with Freddie the other day and an old guy shouted 'never seen anyone running with a lab before' 

And I think it's just bloody rude that a complete stranger would tell you that your dog is thick. Not nice.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Having watched your video of Spen doing the washing I cannot believe anyone has said that. Or actually I can, they love a good stereotype .


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

I know an awful lot of fellows that work their labs on the shooting field that would take great umbridge by the suggestion that labs are stupid. I've heard similar stereotyping regarding goldies and springers, it just means to me that the people who make such comments know very little about the breeds.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Freddie and frank said:


> Same here, all the labs I know around here are mostly overweight, and ploddy. I even had someone say, I like them chunky  There's no telling some people.
> I was jogging with Freddie the other day and an old guy shouted 'never seen anyone running with a lab before'
> 
> And I think it's just bloody rude that a complete stranger would tell you that your dog is thick. Not nice.


Oh they don't say Spencer specifically is thick, just that Labradors are lol. If I say Spen isn't then I usually get the skeptical look and something along the lines of "suppose there are always exceptions" :lol: But yes, still very rude. Perhaps next time one does it I'll find out what breed they own and make a nasty generalisation about it 

I think intelligence is very subjective in some ways, some people seem to think a dog who leaps to obey your every wish is highly intelligent, others seem to think that a dog who decides for itself whether a command is worth obeying is highly intelligent. Intelligence tests say my dog is thick because he won't attempt to free himself if you drape a towel over him, never mind that he simply loves to be dried and that involves having a towel draped over him lol. And he likes to have things draped over him and regularly wraps himself in the curtains. Not saying Labs are wonder dogs but the few I've met who have had their minds worked have been far from stupid.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I have been told yet again today that Labradors are notoriously stupid dogs and I'm confused as to where this idea comes from. Surely if they were thick as pig sh*t like so many seem to think they and their crosses wouldn't be so popular as assistance dogs and various other things. Do any other Lab owners get this? Where does this come from? Is it the fact that so may people get a Lab and do sod all with it so there are tons of badly behaved and out of control Labs out there? Or are a lot of the pet Labs really as dumb as a box of rocks?


Apart from being the most numerous of dogs (in the UK at least) they are also, with the exception of protection work, the breed used for the widest variety of roles within society

Therapy
Assistance
Service
Military etc 
Various types of sniffer work

So really I would not even bother responding


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

I'd say that people confuse biddability and intelligence quite often. Some breeds excel at independent thinking (NOT to be confused with intelligence) and others would do ANYTHING because their owners tell them do.
There are some things a terrier will be great at that a Labrador or Collie could never do half as well and vice versa. It does not mean that the terrier is more intelligent than the Collie or the Lab. If your benchmark for determining intelligence is herding sheep, say, then yes, the Lab is as thick as pig sh1t and the Collie is Albert Einstein. But if you choose picking up a bird then it's the other way round. So it's completely arbitrary. 

Rambly post over. :laugh:


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

imo there are no stupid dogs, its simply owners who don't know how to train them.

All dogs think for themselves, take this evenings walk with Duke he decided to turn left at the top of the Street something I very seldom do unless we are going to the pet shop. After going so far up the road he took another left, half way down that road he took a right which brings us to the Golf course. At the top of that road we took another right continued up the road to where we started at the top of our Street.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I call Labs stupid - but it's not meant in a mean way. It's the goofy charm they have. 

And having chocolate part lab/part springer - ugh - I must have the stupidest around 

I think the problem is, a lot of people see dogs like Collies and GSD's and terriers doing all these tricks and think OMG they need lots of training and look how brilliant they are.. yet get a Lab or a Spaniel or any other breed - no one bothers. They automaticly assume their dog is not one of those breeds, they have never seen their breed do these things - so don't bother.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> I'd say that people confuse biddability and intelligence quite often. Some breeds excel at independent thinking (NOT to be confused with intelligence) and others would do ANYTHING because their owners tell them do.
> There are some things a terrier will be great at that a Labrador or Collie could never do half as well and vice versa. It does not mean that the terrier is more intelligent than the Collie or the Lab. If your benchmark for determining intelligence is herding sheep, say, then yes, the Lab is as thick as pig sh1t and the Collie is Albert Einstein. But if you choose picking up a bird then it's the other way round. So it's completely arbitrary.
> 
> Rambly post over. :laugh:


Exactly, certain breeds have been bred for generations to perform specific tasks, I can toss a piece of wood that I've handled for seconds. into thick brambles and be certain that my spaniel will find it. I'd hate to think of anyone trying to use him as a guide dog. My retreiver will bring in a bird without ruffling its feathers but as a guard dog he'd be useless, probably welcome any intruder as a long lost friend... Horses for courses.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Milo is a dope on a rope! He really is a daft mutt and I would struggle to call him intelligent. Biddable yes, but to me intelligence is that independence to think and ponder, such as Rupert (golden retriever) has. He will consider whether he wants to do something or not, ie. what the reward may be. Whereas Milo is SOOOOOO desperate to do it right, that he often does it wrong 

Classic example, he likes to sit on doormats because he slips on laminate (he is unable to stay still like Rupert). At least once a day, he sits on the rug by the backdoor and knocks it shut, and every time, he goes 'OMG WHAT WAS THAT WHAT JUST HAPPENEDDDDDD?!?!?!  :eek6: And Rupert just sits there all :closedeyes:

With my two its very easy to label Milo as a bit of a dope, but he's a loveable one


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> I'd say that people confuse biddability and intelligence quite often. Some breeds excel at *independent thinking (NOT to be confused with intelligence)* and others would do ANYTHING because their owners tell them do.
> There are some things a terrier will be great at that a Labrador or Collie could never do half as well and vice versa. It does not mean that the terrier is more intelligent than the Collie or the Lab. If your benchmark for determining intelligence is herding sheep, say, then yes, the Lab is as thick as pig sh1t and the Collie is Albert Einstein. But if you choose picking up a bird then it's the other way round. So it's completely arbitrary.
> 
> Rambly post over. :laugh:


To be fair:



> Intelligent usually implies the ability to cope with new problems and to use the power of reasoning and inference effectively





> Intelligence has been defined in many different ways including, but not limited to, logic, abstract thought, understanding, self-awareness, communication, learning, having emotional knowledge, retaining, planning, and problem solving.


So I guess its just how you take the term. To me, independent thinking couldn't possibly display a lack of intelligence, ie. displaying self awareness, understanding, problem solving. All of which, Milo does lack! Biddable is his middle name, mind


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

My Labrador is stupid! 

Intelligence can't be accurately measured as everyone has their own idea what intelligence is and how it's measured. For example, how many commands they can learn or how quickly they will respond to the command and so on. 

Raven has never been trained, she isn't bad or out of control, she just doesn't do anything special... She is however extremely well socialised and can read other dogs like an open book which is extremely helpful to me as I can read her like an open book! So, if intelligence was measured by how dogs communicate and identify other dogs intentions and emotions, she would be very intelligent and Rossi would be pretty stupid!

I think also that biddable dog are seen as stupid as some will go through their entire list of tricks for the yummy morsel of food in your hand rather then waiting for a given command to respond to. Labs really are not stupid!


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

If it makes you feel any better, people always tell me Rotties are clever...which makes me feel like Brock is deficient, he's trainable, he can pick up a new trick in about 10 minutes, but actual brains?...he sits down to scratch his ear and misses and can't even work out what's gone wrong so he sits scratching air, I once watched him sit to try to lick his bits and fall straight over flat on to his back, I can hide a piece of hotdog in plain sight and he struggles to find it by scent. He's a numpty, lol. (though accidentally very entertaining)

At least if people think your dog is supposed to be thick it's a pleasant surprise when he's not, Brock just gets this look :shocked: rofl.


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

tabulahrasa said:


> If it makes you feel any better, people always tell me Rotties are clever...which makes me feel like Brock is deficient, he's trainable, he can pick up a new trick in about 10 minutes, but actual brains?...he sits down to scratch his ear and misses and can't even work out what's gone wrong so he sits scratching air, I once watched him sit to try to lick his bits and fall straight over flat on to his back, I can hide a piece of hotdog in plain sight and he struggles to find it by scent. He's a numpty, lol. (though accidentally very entertaining)
> 
> At least if people think your dog is supposed to be thick it's a pleasant surprise when he's not, Brock just gets this look :shocked: rofl.


:lol: awhhh bless him, that cracked me up :laugh:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> I've been told yet again... that Labs are notoriously stupid dogs & I'm confused as to where this idea
> comes from. Surely if they're thick as pig sh*t... they & their crosses wouldn't be so popular as SDs
> & various other things.
> 
> ...


I think much of it is their sheer popularity, so they're very familiar, & most pet-owners of ANY breed 
do very little training. OOC Labs are no worse than many other OOC dogs, but they're bigger than many
& tend to be full-contact, too. Being smacked into by a running goofball Lab is worse than a similar collision 
with a speeding Shih-Tzu or Beagle. 


Sleeping_Lion said:


> Because people think that dogs that are headstrong & do things they're not taught to do equals intelligence.
> The old saying, *"Labradors are born half trained, spaniels die half trained"*, helps to perpetuate the myth
> that Labradors don't think for themselves.


i never heard that saying - must be a Brit thing?

i'm not sure if headstrong dogs or independent thinkers are 'smarter', but they're not easier to train.
:laugh:


Freddie and frank said:


> I sometimes get "ooh, aren't the chocolate ones the dumbest" & I've even heard "the black ones are
> the most vicious".


actually, there are some color-associated behavior profiles. 

Liver dogs / Chocolates are very distractible, which makes them difficult to train.

And i'm not *sure* which color was what, but John Rogerson hypothesized that [i THINK] black Labs were more 
likely to be dog-aggro, & yellow Labs were more-likely to be human-aggro.


Freddie and frank said:


> I think it's probably that a lot of people don't do a fat lot with them.
> I've not really taught mine any tricks, but they pick things up quickly and seemed intelligent to me,
> when we've done our good citizens scheme and other training.
> 
> In fact, Freddie is clever enough to not even attempt to get in the boot unless he smells a treat in my hand. :laugh:


i think the vast majority of Labs are highly trainable - but teenaged Ms are a PITA. :lol: Careening thru life, 
knocking into ppl as if they were pins in a bowling-alley & the Lab was the ball, mounting anything that 
holds still for 30-seconds, eating everything they can reach, including trash on the ground or in the can...
it's a phase i'm happy to see end.

the STOOPIDEST Labs i've personally met were the blockhead Brit Flab-Labs, with the steer-shaped bodies,
mastiff-like heads, & often cream-colored or biscuit, rather than 'yellow' or light fawn. Some of them were
black, so my sample is biased for color, but the black ones didn't seem as hopelessly dim. 


Lilylass said:


> Yup - I know people that (seriously) wouldn't give a Chocolate house room
> 
> TBH I think there are more intelligent dogs (dogs like Poodles especially spring to mind) but they must
> have... a certain intelligence to be able to learn the fantastic things they do when they're working [as] an SD
> ...


I've met ditzes & geniuses both. 
The common thread is that the vast majority are easygoing & sociable.

I think the "want to please" thing is common to most dogs; the difficulty for the dogs is understanding 
what would make us humans happy. 


Sarah1983 said:


> While mine is too stupid to realise I need to open the boot before he can jump in :lol:
> 
> Most Labs I've known are grossly overweight & the owners do absolutely nothing with them so it's no wonder
> they're dull and ploddy & have no interest in really doing anything. Have to admit I find it a bit odd that
> complete strangers feel the need to tell me that my dog is thick, though.


i agree that most pet-Labs are far too hefty for their health, another thing the SHOW RING is responsible for;
a fellow trainer is also a breeder of Labs, & there's a 25# difference between her bitch's "*fit to work*" weight 
& her "fitted to show" weight, which IMO is simply obscene. :mad5:


Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think because they're generally a happy go lucky temperament, tend to have a happy grin on their face,
> & are sociable -- so run up to other dogs & people to say hello (if you don't train them not to) with said daft grin
> on their face, people think they're unintelligent, or just intelligent enough to train to do basic things.


Maybe the goofy grin is what makes the impression - or perhaps it's the muddy paw-prints that go 
up & over any human damfool enuf to stand in the way of an excited Lab...


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## DawnsPAW (Oct 20, 2012)

The first puppy I looked after was a labrador/golden retriever cross and she is now a working guide dog so definitely not stupid!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

DawnsPAW said:


> The first puppy I looked after was a labrador/golden retriever cross and she is now a working guide dog so definitely not stupid!


I have a golden retriever and a lab, they are quite vastly different to each other, though.

When I tell people I have two retrievers, they say 'no, you've got a retriever and a labrador' :laugh: So people do seem to differentiate sometimes.


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## MrG (Jul 16, 2013)

Labradors stupid? Are you kidding me? Now, flat coats are stupid but not labs (and yes I own a flatcoat). Generally Labradors are classed as well within the top 10 breeds for intelligence, whereas flatties are in the second tier (the difference being they only use that intelligence when they can see the point to doing something or when they're not getting bored).


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Well my flatcoat certainly isn't stupid either, which I'd expect as they're so closely related. In fact she's too bright for her own good sometimes! Her sister is also incredibly sharp, and has learned how to open all the doors at home. Her brother's not the brightest spark, but then I've always found females to be more intelligent overall


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

I must say I have never had that myself. 

I have had the 'chocs are too hyper' when walking with friends with chocs, but what I do get, an awful lot (weekly) is people presuming I am blind because 'being yellow they must be a guide dog'.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

MrG said:


> Labradors stupid? Are you kidding me? Now, flat coats are stupid but not labs (and yes I own a flatcoat). Generally Labradors are classed as well within the top 10 breeds for intelligence, whereas flatties are in the second tier (the difference being they only use that intelligence when they can see the point to doing something or when they're not getting bored).


Maybe you want to attend a working test and see what Flatcoats are capable of. I recently stewarded at a NEFRA working test (and am signed up to volunteer at the next one already) and can assure you, they are not stupid. Far from it, actually.
Maybe you just haven't figured out what motivates your dog yet.


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## Chyuu (Apr 13, 2012)

I have actually never heard this expression before. I think part of it might be a result of many people owning them and not everyone training them. They are definitely a family dog, so not everyone would take the top to train them to their full extent. Plus, many "labs" are actually mutts of labs, so they can have a vast array of personalities and traits.

We had a lab mix that passed when I was 18 and we actually did not have to train him too much, because he picked up stuff really well. That didn't stop him from being a goofball, so many people actually thought he was "stupid," when he was probably the easiest trained dog we ever had!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...my Flatcoat certainly isn't stupid either, which I'd expect [if Labs are such dimwits] as [Labs
> & Flatties] are so closely related. In fact, she's too bright for her own good, sometimes!
> 
> Her sister is also incredibly sharp, & has learned... to open all the doors at home.
> Her brother's not the brightest spark, but then I've always found females to be more intelligent, overall





DollyGirl08 said:


> [I've heard] 'chocs are too hyper', when walking with friends with chocs, but what I [hear], weekly,
> is people presuming I'm blind, because 'being yellow, they must be a guide dog'.


:lol: Both of these made me laugh - thanks for the chuckles, & i agree that by & large, 
i often find the femmes smarter than the dogs. 

I think one vivid example of that is the number of dogs who JUMP from heights, say off a bridge, 
when they see a duck on the water, or off a cliff or dune, when they see a family-member on the beach.
Almost invariably, the dogs who leap & break legs or shatter pelvises, etc, are males - usually over 8-MO
& under 3-YO.  Most bitches have more brains than to jump off something 20 or more feet 
above the ground, or onto concrete, etc.

Ask a vet-tech sometime how many dogs they've seen hurt by hurtling over a parapet, or summat.
Then ask how many were F vs M. It's enlightening. 
I do think "risk-taking" is associated with testosterone - tho i can't cite any studies to support my hunch.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> actually, there are some color-associated behavior profiles.
> 
> Liver dogs / Chocolates are very distractible, which makes them difficult to train.
> 
> ...


Would be interested to read any published articles on this if you can provide links

We've had all colours (3 yellow, 3 blacks and 2 chocolates) - my experience is that the Chocolates are different .... I couldn't put into words what it is but there's def something a bit different about them. I'd also venture that our chocolates have been ... I don't know if they've really been more intelligent than the others or if it was just that they had a different way of going about things


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

bens my second lab,prince was show bred,he was 8yrs when we got him so was set in his ways,but stll learnt loads.we got ben as a pup,working bred,he is sooo clever,but doesn't think,everything is done at full speed,with great enthusiasm.if he"s doing his bum tuck turn anything and everything gets run into,including me!.he"s not stupid just full of life as are all labbies,thats why we love them.not stupid just toooo eager too please.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

princeno5 said:


> bens my second lab,prince was show bred,he was 8yrs when we got him so was set in his ways,but stll learnt loads.we got ben as a pup,working bred,*he is sooo clever,but doesn't think,everything is done at full speed,with great enthusiasm*.if he"s doing his bum tuck turn anything and everything gets run into,including me!.he"s not stupid just full of life as are all labbies,thats why we love them.not stupid just toooo eager too please.


Lol, this is Spencer. Everything he does is done with as much enthusiasm as possible and at great speed unless I actually put in the work to slow things down. I'm not sure it's a case of being too eager to please, more a case of being too eager to get the food that's on offer


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

I think the foods the link,ask ben to sit and he goes through the whole lot,sit,down,paw,up,over,you get the whole sequence.forget being stupid he"s a b mind reader.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

princeno5 said:


> I think the foods the link,ask ben to sit and he goes through the whole lot,sit,down,paw,up,over,you get the whole sequence.forget being stupid he"s a b mind reader.


Ah Spen's learned to listen to what I'm asking, simply throwing behaviours at me doesn't work. It's one of the ways I can tell I'm not being clear enough during training though, if he gets confused he'll throw trick after trick at me in the hopes that one is right.

Smart arse learned early on that if he had something he shouldn't have then I'd trade him for something nice. One day I was sitting eating a bacon sandwich and I saw the lightbulb go on over his head. He ran off and came back with something he shouldn't have, dropped it on the couch next to me and stared pointedly at my bacon sandwich :lol:


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

stupid my a**e.ben learnt the swap game with other dog poo.he kept eating it so I swapped him a treat,he then bought me any he found ,dropped it on my feet then waited for a treat!glad to say that's stopped now.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

There's a myth that Irish setters are stupid - but that's because people misinterpret their bounding energy for scattiness. Ask any IS owner and they'll tell you different. 

I think unless you've owned a breed you don't understand the behaviour. If a dog doesn't react the way someone expects it too they might think its lack of intelligence, whereas its really that the right stimulation hasn't been used for that particular breed.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

I keep hearing the Irish Setters are thick/scatty thing and it's BS. They're usually full of life and enthusiasm but REALLY BRIGHT! They have a different style from the conventional GSD/border collie obedience dogs.

Rex is sort of the classical obedience dog (not the aggression bit!). He watches me intently to see what I want and does it instantly for a "Good DOG". I think he's a bit thick to be honest. He LOOKS bright because of the instant and accurate response to commands but I think Tess (labradoodle) is FAR more intelligent.

Tess is no push-button beast. She knows what commands mean but decides if they're what she wants to do. She works for food and to please Older Son but will always make up her own mind if doing what he wants +/- treat is worth it. She's the dog who can open any door, Rex can't. She's the one who will tell me where any named person/Rex is at any time. She's the one who can work out how to reach something and how to get me to do something and how to get Rex to do something.

I think people see conventional obedience as intelligence but some dogs can think! I strongly suspect Irish Setters of being very bright.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Defiantly not stupid dogs I was able to teach one of my labs when she was 9 years old and I was 11 to sniff out her tennis balls in the house (im talking a big 6 bed house with big rooms) and I mean anywhere in the house stuffed in the back of drawers the lot only took me about a week too, she was amazing. it's the stupid owners that just get a lab because they think you don't have to do anything with them that say they're stupid. I have to say im luckily I've never (touch wood) met a bad Labrador in my life for some reason whenever I meet labs especially older ones they come right up to me a cuddle into me, it upsets me and I have to hold back tears every time it happens because it reminds me of mine labs and how much I miss them but its amazing at the same time, oh god im crying now lol


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Call me skeptical, but I can't, for the life of me, imagine how colour affects biddability or intelligence. Tau had all three colours in her litter, I find it hard to believe that those three colours would have different associated levels of intelligence to each of them. 

In the past, when colours were being developed and different breed types were used to do this, I can see that argument applying where a dog has a huge dollop of another breed type in there, which causes it to also be a specific colour, but not after many years of closed gene pools. The only difference with chocolate Labradors now is that their popularity means they are churned out en masse, with many byb and puppy farmed dogs where the temperament of the parents wasn't a consideration.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Call me skeptical, but I can't, for the life of me, imagine how colour affects biddability or intelligence. Tau had all three colours in her litter, I find it hard to believe that those three colours would have different associated levels of intelligence to each of them.
> 
> In the past, when colours were being developed and different breed types were used to do this, I can see that argument applying where a dog has a huge dollop of another breed type in there, which causes it to also be a specific colour, but not after many years of closed gene pools. The only difference with chocolate Labradors now is that their popularity means they are churned out en masse, with many byb and puppy farmed dogs where the temperament of the parents wasn't a consideration.


Agree totally with this.

I also don't see how you can breed for intelligence. If two intelligent humans produce a child, that child is not necessarily as intelligent as it's parents. Also behaviour wise - how often do we see parents mystified when they find they have produced a violent criminal!

It is common to have two children in a family, each will totally different levels of intelligence and capabilities

If human's can't get it right, I think it's stretching it a bit far to say that we can breed tow dogs together with a guarantee of both intelligence and behavioural traits.

We can do our best by selecting a mate carefully, but something in the environment or genetics will influence how the offspring turn out.


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## MrG (Jul 16, 2013)

terencesmum said:


> Maybe you want to attend a working test and see what Flatcoats are capable of. I recently stewarded at a NEFRA working test (and am signed up to volunteer at the next one already) and can assure you, they are not stupid. Far from it, actually.
> Maybe you just haven't figured out what motivates your dog yet.


I know they are not stupid really. The point I was making was they seem to be a bit more selective with when they show that intelligence amidst their fun-loving nature. Oh and I know what motivates my (7 month old) dog....food.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

MrG said:


> I know they are not stupid really. The point I was making was they seem to be a bit more selective with when they show that intelligence amidst their fun-loving nature. Oh and I know what motivates my (7 month old) dog....food.


I had my flatcoat bitch out doing memory retrieves up a steep embankment last night, about 150 yard retrieves, she went out like a thing possessed both times. She likes food, but if there's any chance of gundog training that motivates her far more.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Call me skeptical, but I can't, for the life of me, imagine how colour affects biddability or intelligence.


Then why is it that "Springer rage" is very frequently seen in red & white dogs, not black nor roan, 
& biting American Cockers are often buff, but rarely black?

Chestnut horses have literally thinner skin than bays do; as a direct result, they are more prone to saddle 
& harness galls, where they've been rubbed & develop sores. They also over-react to touch - which is why 
Monty Roberts retrained that one chestnut thoroughbred to stand in the racing gate quietly by sewing 
a RUG to cover the horse's backside, pulled off from behind when the gate opened & the horse leaped out 
to accelerate down the track.

Pigment does a lot more than add color, in many animal species.

3 color morphs of ONE lizard have 3 different mating strategies; same species, 3 colors, 3 sets 
of behaviors: where they like to be, how they court Fs, how turfy they are re other Ms, all differ.


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## springfieldbean (Sep 13, 2010)

I've not heard the expression that labs are stupid - I didn't realise that was a common assumption! I have heard many times how greedy they are, and I do recognise that in lots of the labs I've met! In particular, Honey, who used to come into the office in my old job, seemed interested in food and nothing else - she would systematically go round each office, putting her head in every bin, and completely ignoring all the people. I found it a bit sad, really, and it put me off labs until I met the next bouncy and very people-oriented one!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Then why is it that "Springer rage" is very frequently seen in red & white dogs, not black nor roan,
> & biting American Cockers are often buff, but rarely black?
> 
> Chestnut horses have literally thinner skin than bays do; as a direct result, they are more prone to saddle
> ...


I didn't think there was a test to confirm cocker rage was associated with colours? I know there's a theory that it is associated with red, golden and black cockers, but if a breeder has temperament issues within their lines, and their dogs happen to be those colours, an association will be built up. There was a lot of close breeding of cockers 20 or 30 years ago, where more popular reds and goldens were bred for I've been told, so it's easy to see how a wrong association could build up, ie people using dogs for looks alone, ignoring the temperament issues cropping up, creating bottle necks with using dogs that produce what they want but may not be an ideal temperament, and bingo, you get a *theory* that colour=temperament, or something like that.

Added to that, any cocker that so much as twitched it's lip was associated with cocker rage, and I don't think you can really prove much with that theory I'm afraid. I still remain to be convinced


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Call me skeptical, but I can't, for the life of me, imagine how colour affects biddability or intelligence. Tau had all three colours in her litter, I find it hard to believe that those three colours would have different associated levels of intelligence to each of them.
> 
> In the past, when colours were being developed and different breed types were used to do this, I can see that argument applying where a dog has a huge dollop of another breed type in there, which causes it to also be a specific colour, but not after many years of closed gene pools. The only difference with chocolate Labradors now is that their popularity means they are churned out en masse, with many byb and puppy farmed dogs where the temperament of the parents wasn't a consideration.


Though - I think breeding for colour possibly affects those other traits, which I think is the point you're making about BYBs?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

tabulahrasa said:


> Though - I think breeding for colour possibly affects those other traits, which I think is the point you're making about BYBs?


Yes, so people who bung two chocolate Labs together simply to produce more saleable chocolate puppies, aren't going to bother about temperament; so when you end up with loads of puppy farmed, byb chocolate Labrador pups that aren't bred to be biddable, and are as mad as a bag of badgers, then you can't blame it on the colour, it's just [email protected] breeding. Unfortunately every one does blame it on the colour, and the myth about all chocolate Labradors being nutty is perpetuated.


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## Wilmer (Aug 31, 2012)

> I do think "risk-taking" is associated with testosterone - tho i can't cite any studies to support my hunch


I think the association between risk-taking behaviour and testosterone has been seen in humans, so I wouldn't be surprised it was in other mammals.

Interestingly, some parasites also cause risk-taking behaviours, although in prey animals rather than predators. There's a worm that needs to reproduce in the digestive system of a cat; when it infests mice, it makes them take more risks (leading to them ending up in a cat's digestive system....).


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Slightly off the point perhaps but I'm curious about this 'Springer Rage'' issue. I've been involved in shooting as a beater and picker up for about 40 yrs. In all that time I've worked with, and alongside hundreds of Springers and have yet to come across this springer rage. I'm not for a minute saying it doesn't exist, it's cropped up on the forum a few times so I guess it must be a fact. I just dont understand what it's all about and how it manifests itself. Every springer I've owned has been of the sweetest nature, a bit mischievious on times perhaps but never showed any sign of aggression to either dogs or humans, as have been the dogs of my pals on the shoots I've worked on.
I may well be displaying my ignorance yet again but, as I said, I've never seen a springer in a rage.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

springfieldbean said:


> I've not heard the expression that labs are stupid - I didn't realise that was a common assumption! I have heard many times how greedy they are, and I do recognise that in lots of the labs I've met! In particular, Honey, who used to come into the office in my old job, seemed interested in food and nothing else - she would systematically go round each office, putting her head in every bin, and completely ignoring all the people. I found it a bit sad, really, and it put me off labs until I met the next bouncy and very people-oriented one!


It's something I get told a lot sadly, they're stupid. I also get told they're lazy, boring and have no personality. I'm like "mine is clearly broken then" lol. I have met a lot who do come across that way though, they're dull and ploddy and don't seem interested in anything at all  They're also usually obese and belong to people who don't actually do anything with them.

Spencer is a typical foody Lab, I think he'd eat till he burst given the chance. But it's not all he cares about


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

I wouldn't worry about it. Get told my dogs are ankle biters


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Call me skeptical, but I can't, for the life of me, imagine how colour affects biddability or intelligence. Tau had all three colours in her litter, I find it hard to believe that those three colours would have different associated levels of intelligence to each of them.
> 
> In the past, when colours were being developed and different breed types were used to do this, I can see that argument applying where a dog has a huge dollop of another breed type in there, which causes it to also be a specific colour, but not after many years of closed gene pools. The only difference with chocolate Labradors now is that their popularity means they are churned out en masse, with many byb and puppy farmed dogs where the temperament of the parents wasn't a consideration.


I don't own or have never owned Labs, I do like the Golden colour out of choice, but I have to agree with you as above, people say, Oh the brown one's are nastier, than the other colours, I'm afraid colours don't come into it, its the lack of picking the right stud to the right female, temperament is what is of prime importance.

No dog is stupid, some maybe slower to pick things up than others, and of course you have to bear in mind what the dog was originallyu bred for. We all know must dogs will tolerate water, like my Schnauzer who prefers snow to rain, where on the sound of running water will run and hide, where on the other hand most spaniel breeds they will joyfully spend all day in the sea.

So my belief is that all dogs have a degree of intelligence some more than others, and with a little bit of patience, love and encouragemnet we can teach and train any dog to reach its full potential.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

My brother and SIL have now fostered two young Choccie Lab girls; both girls have been very quick to learn, extremely biddable, and as bright as any yellow Labs I know.

As for the notion that Labs are stupid: I suspect it's because they are more popular than many other breeds, so statistically speaking, you're more likely to see UNtrained Labs.

Also, Labs can be 'goofy' 

But as others have rightly noted, Labs are incredibly versatile dogs and if they were 'thick' they would not be used so often as assistance dogs etc.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Wilmer said:


> Interestingly, some parasites also cause risk-taking behaviours, although in prey animals rather than predators.
> 
> There's a worm that needs to reproduce in the digestive system of a cat; when it infests mice, it makes them
> take more risks (leading to them ending up in a cat's digestive system...).


_Toxoplasma gondii_ - which BTW is also strongly implicated in risky behavior in *humans*.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

springerpete said:


> Slightly OT, perhaps, but I'm curious about this 'Springer Rage'' issue.


Study #1 - 
_The English Cocker Spaniel: preliminary findings on aggressive behaviour, by Anthony L. Podberscek, James A. Serpell_
Applied Animal Behaviour Science
Volume 47, Issue 1 , Pages 75-89, April 1996

Elsevier

932 acceptable responses (owning 1109 dogs) to 2k questionnaires, mailed via the Kennel Club.

Study #2 -
Measuring cortisol in hair and saliva from dogs: coat color and pigment differences



> _
> *Bold added for emphasis -*
> 
> Black dogs had less cortisol than nonblack dogs (P = 0.039) in hair, but not saliva.
> ...


When i find more pertinent studies, i'll post them. :yesnod:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

_Aggressive behavior in the English cocker spaniel
Marta Amat, DVM, Dip. ECVBM-CA, 
Xavier Manteca, DVM, MSc, PhD, Dip. ECVBM-CA, 
Valentina M. Mariotti, DVM, Msc, 
José Luís Ruiz de la Torre, DVM, PhD, 
Jaume Fatjó, DVM, PhD, Dip. ECVBM-CA_

Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications & Research
Volume 4, Issue 3 , Pages 111-117, May 2009

Elsevier

QUOTE,
_...a retrospective study to analyze the aggressive behavior of 145 ECSs presented for aggression problems 
to the Animal Behavior Service at the Barcelona School of Veterinary Medicine's veterinary teaching hospital.

Aggressive ECSs were compared with a popn of dogs of the same breed presented for a behavior problem 
other than aggression, & with a popn of aggressive dogs of other breeds.

The most common forms of aggression in the ECS were owner-directed aggression (67.6%), 
aggression toward unfamiliar people (18.4%), 
aggression toward unfamiliar dogs (10.1%), 
and aggression toward family dogs (3.3%).

Owner-directed aggression was more common in the ECS than in other breeds, although in similar contexts.

In the ECS, the golden coat color was more common in the aggressive dogs than in nonaggressive dogs.

ECSs showed impulsive aggression more frequently than aggressive dogs of other breeds.

The aim of the study was to analyze cases of aggressive ECSs seen in a referral practice._


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> I have been told yet again today that Labradors are notoriously stupid dogs and I'm confused as to where this idea comes from. Surely if they were thick as pig sh*t like so many seem to think they and their crosses wouldn't be so popular as assistance dogs and various other things. Do any other Lab owners get this? Where does this come from? Is it the fact that so may people get a Lab and do sod all with it so there are tons of badly behaved and out of control Labs out there? Or are a lot of the pet Labs really as dumb as a box of rocks?


Some Labs are actually very clever at having you believe they are daft - when nothing can be further from the truth.

My yellow girl - I used to think she was the original "dumb blonde" as a puppy - until I woke up and realised that actually it was me that was the dull one, she had me exactly where she wanted me - 7 years on - she still has :lol: :lol:

I don't know where the idea comes from that Labs are stupid - most of them are big softies which could be construed as stupid I guess

The reason Chocolate Labs have suffered is until recently - they really were the cash cows of the puppy farmers - who gave no thought to anything when breeding apart from colour.

In most lines this didn't affect temperament (although it did occasionally) - but it didn't do much to benefit the reputation of the colour to outsiders and even some insiders.

Thankfully for Labs (but not so good for people wanting something a bit different) - most have gone on to some of the highly lucrative "designer breeds" now - not good for them - but will hopefully allow for - where applicable - some peoples' opinion of Labs (and in particular chocs) to be consigned to the history books.


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## AussieGirl (Dec 25, 2015)

Labradors are like some humans, they're cute when they're babies, but they get uglier and fatter when they're older. I don't think it really matters what colour it is, it's still stupid.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

AussieGirl said:


> Labradors are like some humans, they're cute when they're babies, but they get uglier and fatter when they're older. I don't think it really matters what colour it is, it's still stupid.


Nice try. Have you finished playing with your Christmas toys?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Then why is it that "Springer rage" is very frequently seen in red & white dogs, not black nor roan,
> & biting American Cockers are often buff, but rarely black?
> 
> Chestnut horses have literally thinner skin than bays do; as a direct result, they are more prone to saddle
> ...


I know this is really old but I have never heard such a load of baloney.

I thought it was cocker rage anyway, not springer rage - and it is likely to be more prevalent in certain lines than others and they are likely to have certain colours that are more common - does not mean that it is seen because of those colours. Also springers come nearly always is in red (liver and white) sometimes in black and white and never in roan. Cockers come in those colours though.

As for horses, never heard such rubbish. So Monty Roberts (and he could be a whole new thread if this was a horse forum) found a way that happened to work with a horse that happened to be chestnut - so what! The thinnest skinned horse I have ever owned who could cut herself by just looking at something sharp was a bay. The chestnut I own at the moment has never had so much as a scratch and none of the other chestnuts I have owned have ever been prone to being sensitive whereas two other bays were fairly easily damaged. I suppose you are one of these people that believe the old wive's tale about chestnut mares.


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

I am sure if every Lab had a clever owner they would come across as clever dogs. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case and I am very weary of any Labs appearing over the horizon as I have been variously humped by a strange Lab when out walking while the (male) owner sniggered (yes, really!), have been bowled over and have had my slim lurchers repeatedly pounced on by umpteen heavy, unruly Labs. The lolling tongues and goofy expressions of the charging idiots do not endear them to us I am afraid, especially when I am walking an easily scared rescue. I have however vowed to fend them off as well as I can and to say nothing to their owners as I have realised I would be wasting my breath.
I think Labs are highly trainable and very reliable when trained but I must admit my heart usually sinks when I see one. Perhaps Lab owners here need to start an educating campaign aimed at their fellow owners?


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

I know shooting people prefer black labs and claim they're the best for retrieving etc, no idea how true that is, but the vast majority of hunting types are black, for sure.

Re thin skinned horses-I think it's the individual, not a swathe of colour. My black and white has very thin skin, rubs raw with anything but a string girth.

I keep hearing about springer rage and to be fair, one of mine is very DA and doesn't like being loomed over. Not sure about springer rage, tho! 











AussieGirl said:


> Labradors are like some humans, they're cute when they're babies, but they get uglier and fatter when they're older. I don't think it really matters what colour it is, it's still stupid.


PMSL, what an idiotic statement!


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

True cocker rage is very rare and has hallmarks of a neurological condition as it's not just a behavioral response to a trigger, it's an eyes glazed over, not knowing where they are, unable to snap out of it rage. Most instances of 'cocker rage' are actually just behavioural issues.


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