# anti bark / vibrating collars



## roadshredder (Mar 27, 2008)

hi all, can anyone reccomend a good training collar? i have tried lots of ways to stop the behaviour but am getting nowhere.
Two main problems, barking excessively at the front door, not just when someone is there but also if anyone walks past.
The othe is when out walking, they approach other dogs in an intimidating way, they are walked in a big park and have lots of exercise with a ball so keeping on a lead isn't reaaly an option.
Is there such a device that could be used for both problems? cheers. TOM


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

Please don;t use these collars! They will only make the problem worse. They really are a waste of money. 


The problem with using the collar, with someone coming to the door and him barking is he can make the association between visitor and nasty sensation. This could escalate the problem to aggression when visitors arrive!

For barking at the door, can you stop his access to the door, preferably by another door? You can teach "speak" , catch him when he barks and treat and say speak. (Not when he is barking at the door though, but other times) After a while he will bark and the should look for his treat, s you can start to put the word before the behaviour. "speak" = Bark good boy. Keep training this.

Then you can reverse this, capture a time when his is sat quietly "No speak" treat, keep doing this at random times through out the day. Once well rehearsed you should be able to say "speak" (Bark) then "no speak" (quiet)

THen you can employ this when he goes to bark at the door. The key is to prevent him practicing barking at the door while teaching though. 

What exactly is his problem in the park?


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## roadshredder (Mar 27, 2008)

they are both big females, 6 stone each, guard type breeds, they are both rescue dogs, they play with the ball and walk round with me until they see another dog at a distance, they become intimidating and 'stalk' over to the dog, if that dog shows any sign of aggression they, well, you can imagine!! i have tried everything from whistles to treats, i wouldn't use an electric collar, only vibration or sound, just to distract them from ganging up on other dogs, the barking is becoming a real problem though, mainly at the front door but also if anyone comes near the car


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

roadshredder said:


> they are both big females, 6 stone each, guard type breeds, they are both rescue dogs, they play with the ball and walk round with me until they see another dog at a distance, they become intimidating and 'stalk' over to the dog, if that dog shows any sign of aggression they, well, you can imagine!! i have tried everything from whistles to treats, i wouldn't use an electric collar, only vibration or sound, just to distract them from ganging up on other dogs, the barking is becoming a real problem though, mainly at the front door but also if anyone comes near the car


To be perfectly honest these collars are just as bad and blooming expensive... eg the citronella collars are about £125 :blink: If I was you I would use this money to seek the advice of a professional. (Positive reward)

In the mean time have you tried using a long line, for them, which is easire to distract if their behaviour becomes inappropiate?

Someone else will hopefully come along soon, but this is what I would do. I really wouldn't bother with any of these collars, and if your dogs associate an uncomfortable sensation with the sight of other dogs you will have a huge problem.

Hope you get this sorted


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I'm sorry but I agree 100% with Sue & Harvey- these collars WILL ONLY MAKE YOUR DOGS WORSE!

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not use these collars. 
As far as I'm concerned a "vibration" collar is the same as an electric one. As tempting as a "quick fix" may be, the reality is that they don't work or exist and all you are doing is punishing the dogs and making the problem a million times worse.

So seriously FORGET the collars and think about firstly *why* the dog is motivated to behave in that why and *how* you can condition a new, more desirable response:

-* Barking at door/passers by*- it sounds to me like your dogs are becoming reactive to the stimulus of the doorbell and people walking past the house. This may be due to fear (quite likely if they are rescues and you do not know their background) or overexitment. Either way I would deal with the problem, at least initially in near enough the same way:

1. Restrict their access to the stimulus- with the passers by issue this may mean install stairgates so that they cannot see people passing by them on walks. Similarly put them in another room, initially when visitors arrive or behind a stairgate (we will get to tackling the barking before hand in a minute). By restricting their access you are preventing them from practicing and reinforcing the barking behaviour (i.e. they bark at passers by and the people walk away from the house- the behaviour is reinforced). 
2. Desensitize and then countercondition their emotional response and condition a new desirable one to stimuli to which access cannot be restricted. This may include the sound of the doorbell. You can desensitize to the sound of the doorbell by working with each dog separately. Position you and either dog at the back of the house/garden where the sound of the bell will be less intense, have a stooge wait outside and press the doorbell, as they press the bell and before the dog has the chance to bark feed them (if you clicker train, add the marker in before the dog has the chance to bark and then feed). Repeat this exercise and when you are successful in no barking and with delayed reward at this stage move to another part of the house where the sound of the bell will be clearer. Repeat the process by rewarding the dog before he/she gets the chance to bark and then raise the critera by adding duration (i.e. feed 2 seconds after bell, then 4 seconds, then 6 etc). Once you are successful at this stage, as before move to the place where the dogs would normally be when the doorbell goes off. Repeat as before. If at any stage either dog regresses take it back a stage and reward no-barking at the previously stage and gradually work on the next. 
The same proccess can then be repeated for desensitizing to passers-by, ask a friend to act as stooge as before.

A few questions:

How to they interact with visitors normally, after the initial barking? Are they friendly? Reserved? Timid? Or do they continue to bark?
*
Interactions with other dogs*- if they are approaching other dogs without your say so, you need to work on making yourself more interesting and work on a recall. Ideally they should not be approaching other dogs unless you know them and have released them to do so. 
When you say that they approach dogs in an intimidating way, what do you mean? Can you expand? Do they approach with hackles up and curled tails? Do they growl? Snap? You say they stalk? This doesn't necesarily mean that they are being aggressive but I certainly wouldn't allow them to do so- they need to be focusing on you more and could spook a nervous dog. How do you interact with them? Do you throw the ball? Or are they asked to perform tricks/ fun behaviours and then rewarded with the ball/toy?
How do they interact with other dogs when onlead? Or away from the field?
If I were you, in the short term I would try walking them separately for one of their walks daily at least, to build more of a relationship with them and interact more with them. It may well be that they are more interested in eachother or other dogs on walks than interacting with you. You need to make yourself the most interesting thing in the world. Reward them with high value rewards for paying attention to you and recalling ( I mean super high value- liver or similar or a high value "special" toy - something they would bend over backwards for!). Hide and seek games indoors and out are good for teaching them to keep an eye on you. Be unpredictable and fun to be around, randomly start running on walks, hide behind trees etc...

I think whether you need to countercondition their response to other dogs, really depends on how they interact with them? So please expand on how they interact? Whether separately or together? How do they react when they see other dogs when onlead and the other dog is on the other side of the street for example.

I hope this helps and whatever you do PLEASE do not go down the punishment route. It really won't get you anywhere!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Please do not resort to punishment collars such as these.  The problem with them is (even the 'harmess' spray collars) that unless you are an expert in timing, you may end up causing your dogs to associate even the sight of someone else with being 'punished', something that I am sure you do not want to do.  Many dogs end up with their confidence totally knocked through being punished over and over again, often for every 
little misdemenaour as thios type of 'lazy pushbutton training' is too easy to do and get wrong. Instead, make some time and effort to get the assistance of a one to one trainer - plenty in your area - Local Dog Trainers in Worcestershire UK It may cost you but it will be more effective in the long run and a damn sight kinder way to train. The size of the dogs is irrelevant when it comes to training it's brain to respond in a different way by using your own brain, not by pushing a button.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Please do not resort to punishment collars such as these.  The problem with them is (even the 'harmess' spray collars) that unless you are an expert in timing, you may end up causing your dogs to associate even the sight of someone else with being 'punished', something that I am sure you do not want to do.  Many dogs end up with their confidence totally knocked through being punished over and over again, often for every
> little misdemenaour as thios type of 'lazy pushbutton training' is too easy to do and get wrong. Instead, make some time and effort to get the assistance of a one to one trainer - plenty in your area - Local Dog Trainers in Worcestershire UK It may cost you but it will be more effective in the long run and a damn sight kinder way to train. The size of the dogs is irrelevant when it comes to training it's brain to respond in a different way by using your own brain, not by pushing a button.


Good post Caroline- I would rep you but apparently I have to share it around first


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I don`t think it`s a problem with the dogs, I think it`s a problem with training. I would train the dogs separately, and establish a good relationship with them individually, at least 20 minutes each per day. When they begin to listen to you, then you will be able to change their behaviour. 
The barking and the menacing of other dogs are two very different problems and need different approaches. 
I have guarding breeds. I have trained them to go into a room when the doorbell goes, where they wait while I open the door. This cuts down the barking, as they only bark to alert me, not to chase away the `intruder`. 
If your dogs do not have sufficient recall when out you need to walk them separately, on a line and to train them (individually) when out so they learn to listen tio you around distractions. 
I know this sounds like a lot of work , but unfortunately there are no short cuts with training. It will only be until they are manageable, then you can have fun with your well-behaved dogs.


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## roadshredder (Mar 27, 2008)

thankyou for your help, maybe i will forget the collar idea! i am going to put a curtain up on the front door as they sleep at the top of the stairs looking down at the door.
when they are out they dont growl or show hackles but they become very alert and lower their heads and move slowly towards the othr dog, which people have said looks very scary, they are terrible on the lead aswell, we used to take them to our local pub where people sit outside with dogs but they have been very aggressive to dogs walking by, so now we dont, they are so soft and friendly at home, its really frustrating


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## sugartyson (Jul 13, 2010)

you could try a citronella no-bark collar.....it isnt cruel.....it releases a unharmful smell everytime he barks... it doesnt hurt them. The smell just distracts them from barking.....i do not know if it works, i havent tried it, i have just heard about it....you could do some research about it....


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

sugartyson said:


> you could try a citronella no-bark collar.....it isnt cruel.....it releases a unharmful smell everytime he barks... it doesnt hurt them. The smell just distracts them from barking.....i do not know if it works, i havent tried it, i have just heard about it....you could do some research about it....


IT IS CRUEL!!!! AND HARMFUL

They will associate the unpleasent sensation with the dog, or intruder!!!

How about I squirt you in the face when you don't like a situation? I am sure you would not be too impressed and the next time I approached you with the spray I am sure you would tell me where to go!

I am sorry but you will find very few people here who endorse such items. As all of the above posters have said, these collars are awful and do not work. One (if not 2) of the above posters are extremely experience trainers themselves. Caroline H and Lemmsy Have given fantastic advice which I sincerely hope the OP heeds.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

What everyone else said.

I have an 11 month old 7 stone mastiff who has been extremely dog aggressive since 10 weeks old. It's taken me over 8 months but only a few weeks ago she was OFFLEAD around a strange dog!! I did not use any 'training aids' apart from a crate and a clicker (which I gave up on as she doesn't respond to it. She's more ball/food orientated). She also started to become very protective of me when we were out and would bark/growl at anyone who came near me.

It can be done!! It takes a lot of hard work! You don't need any of these barbaric collars 

This is my 'evil' mastiff - I was terrified of bringing other pets into my home as I didn't know she'd react. How wrong was I?


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

sequeena said:


> What everyone else said.
> 
> I have an 11 month old 7 stone mastiff who has been extremely dog aggressive since 10 weeks old. It's taken me over 8 months but only a few weeks ago she was OFFLEAD around a strange dog!! I did not use any 'training aids' apart from a crate and a clicker (which I gave up on as she doesn't respond to it. She's more ball/food orientated). She also started to become very protective of me when we were out and would bark/growl at anyone who came near me.
> 
> ...


I said it before and I'll say it again 
:thumbup: to you and :001_wub: to Luna


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

sue&harvey said:


> I said it before and I'll say it again
> :thumbup: to you and :001_wub: to Luna


Luna sends drooly kisses


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

sequeena said:


> Luna sends drooly kisses


and I though it was funny rain  Big licks from Harvey who thinks Luna should come and stay here :yesnod:


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

sue&harvey said:


> and I though it was funny rain  Big licks from Harvey who thinks Luna should come and stay here :yesnod:


I'm sure Luna would LOVE Harvey right now. She's in the whore stage of her season :lol:


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

sequeena said:


> I'm sure Luna would LOVE Harvey right now. She's in the whore stage of her season :lol:


hmm he think he is a girl I am sure... keeps humping the boys and squats like a girl  Mean mummy took his love spuds already


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

sue&harvey said:


> hmm he think he is a girl I am sure... keeps humping the boys and squats like a girl  Mean mummy took his love spuds already


:lol: Poor poor Harvey!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Although I've used a spray collar successfully to stop one of my dogs running off to football games, I wouldn't recommend it for your situation. If the dogs link the spray with people coming to the house or walking past, it could trigger aggression to people in the future. Timing has to be precise and the dog should only be able to link the spray with it's behaviour, maybe something neutral such as scavenging food off the street (or running off to footballs). For anything involving other people, don't use them.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

roadshredder said:


> thankyou for your help, maybe i will forget the collar idea! i am going to put a curtain up on the front door as they sleep at the top of the stairs looking down at the door.


Thanks you clarifying  and hoorah (! :thumbup that you won't be using a "training collar"- good for you, your dogs will be so much happier and balanced for it! 
Out of interest what breed are your dogs?
Curtain up at the front door- sounds like a fab idea- if it restricts their vision of passers-by and means that they don't perform the barking behaviour then fantastic. Stairgates may also be something to consider if you want to temporarily confine them when answering the door etc, so that you do have to worry about their barking/interactions with visitors just yet. 

*Now to address their behaviour with other dogs* 



> when they are out they dont growl or show hackles but they become very alert and lower their heads and move slowly towards the othr dog, which people have said looks very scary


- The behaviour you describe is stalking- it isn't what I would consider an aggressive behaviour in fact, you will often see that when two offlead dogs approach each other one or both will often stalk up towards the other dog and then lie down, each one waiting for the other to approach. Some consider it to be quite a non-confrontational approach, especially when both perform the behaviour; a sort of "I'm ok", "You're ok" interaction.

However the only thing I would say is that despite this it's not something I would encourage. In many cases, some dogs find the behaviour difficult to read. Many dogs that perform and rehearse the stalk (and then down) behaviour are often in quite a high state of arousal when they meet other dogs, which the other dog may find unsettling- this can sometimes lead to "handbag" moments which obviously is not something that you want to happen.

Basically I'd be trying to avoid letting them practice and reinforce the behaviour. Take them out separately for one of their daily walks when you can and really practice and reinforce their recall. Make coming back to you the most rewarding thing in the world. Use a longline and harness at first if you are not confident that they will recall- set them up for success.

Have a read of the following articles that has loads more ideas for teaching a recall:
Why won't my dog come back? - David Ryan CCAB

As I said before I'd also try and make yourself more interesting on walks: hide and seek games, get them to perform tricks/fun behaviours as a reward for their toy being thrown- you give the toy higher value if they have to work for it. 
It may be a good idea to teach an instant down so that even if they do start to stalk you can stop them in their tracks and then recall them to you? Or you could even work on a chase recall style behaviour to get their focus back on you and their special toy?
How do I stop my dog chasing? - David Ryan CCAB



> they are terrible on the lead aswell, we used to take them to our local pub where people sit outside with dogs but they have been very aggressive to dogs walking by


Your description of their onlead behaviour towards other dogs in one way I think certainly links to their offlead behaviour. You describe their behaviour as "aggressive" to dogs walking by and I don't doubt that there may well be a fear aggressive element in there (after all I cannot see your dogs) but it seems to me like their overarousal could be causing reactive behaviour, in particular as their pick up on eachother's arousal too. Fear not though, as this is something that you can sort. Take each out *separately* and on a lead, armed with a bag of really high value treats (liver cake, dried/cooked liver, chicken, sausage, frankfuter sausage etc). As you walk with them, the moment you see another dog in the distance, immediately pop a treat in their mouth. Continue to approach provided they remain non-reactive and continue feeding them. What we are aiming to do is to desensitize them to other dogs when onlead and countercondition their emotional and therefore physical response. If at any point the dog regresses and starts to bark you are working above threshold, so take it back a stage to the distance that you were last successful and reward and treat for non-reactive behaviour there. You should eventually get to the stage where both dogs separately, are happy to walk past other dogs onlead without showing any reactive behaviour. This is when you would put the two together, ideally with the help of a friend to hold one whilst you hold the other (tricky to feed otherwise). Repeat the process walking side by side with friend and either one of your dogs. It is best at this stage to keep the criteria low. Feed them when you see a dog at a distance and if they can tolerate going closer without being reactive then do so. However, if you don't think you will be successful, don't risk rehearsal of reactive behaviour: turn in the opposite direction and avoid the situation or put yourselves at a distance where you feel you will be successful and reinforce calm, non-reactive behaviour then. As before gradually decrease the distance until you can walk past another dog with both dogs without reactive behaviour.

I hope I have explained the above well enough.

Best of luck


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

One of my dogs barks at anything in the street,so i taught him "watch",i started in the house/garden,i show him a treat in my hand,then raise the hand to my lips and say "watch,he then sits watching the hand that has the treat,i then give him the treat for watching me,now i just have to put one finger to my lips,say watch and he ignores all around him.I do this if a dog is walking near us in the street and now he just walks pass that dog while watching me,then he gets praise and a treat.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

sequeena said:


> What everyone else said.
> 
> I have an 11 month old 7 stone mastiff who has been extremely dog aggressive since 10 weeks old. It's taken me over 8 months but only a few weeks ago she was OFFLEAD around a strange dog!! I did not use any 'training aids' apart from a crate and a clicker (which I gave up on as she doesn't respond to it. She's more ball/food orientated). She also started to become very protective of me when we were out and would bark/growl at anyone who came near me.
> 
> ...


Lovely post  Well done to you and the lovely Luna 

Just a quick thought r.e. clicker training as it's something that often comes up. You say she didn't respond to the clicker and was more motivated by toys/food. The clicker is a marker for behaviour that we are going to reinforce. Before starting clicker training we go through a process known as "charging" the clicker, in which we click and give the dog a reward (whether food or otherwise), this is repeated several times and over several sessions where necesary so that the dog associates the behaviour with a reward and anticipates a reward after the "click" (this is what has happened before). So technically rather than motivating the dog, the clicker simply marks the desired (or stages towards), the desired behaviour. The food/toy is the actual motivator but in both cases, the clicker and the rewards both deal with operant behaviour. Experienced clicker trained dogs will perform behaviours and work for the click but will nevertheless always be rewarded afterwards (with food or toy/game rewards). 
Hopefully that is clear but I just thought I'd clarify as there is often confusion about the role of a clicker in modern training.
Have a read of the following though if you are interested in clicker training- should explain it better than this rambling post  :lol::
https://sites.google.com/site/lucysdogblog/understanding-the-basics--clicker-training

Will shut up now! Honest! 

Back to the original topic- for anyone interested in reading about the negative effects of "training" collars- specifically shock collars, have a read of the following:
Negative impacts of training dogs using an electric shock collar - David Ryan CCAB


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

LOL lemmsy  I'll be honest in saying I'm not too clued up on clicker training. I think I was clicking at the WRONG time and started to reinforce the bad behaviour. 

Think I'm better off without it :lol:


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## sugartyson (Jul 13, 2010)

sue&harvey said:


> IT IS CRUEL!!!! AND HARMFUL
> 
> They will associate the unpleasent sensation with the dog, or intruder!!!
> 
> ...


don't worry......................like i said i do not use it................will not use it........ =]


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## sue&harvey (Mar 10, 2010)

sugartyson said:


> don't worry......................like i said i do not use it................will not use it........ =]


Phew thank lord for that, mabey wiser not to suggest something you have not tried and seen the effects of though  these things really can exacerbate the problem.


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