# Yet another child is hurt due to uncontrolled dog



## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-33770009

Yet another young boy is mauled because the owners of the dog in question couldn't control it properly


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

jamat said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-33770009
> 
> Yet another young boy is mauled because the owners of the dog in question couldn't control it properly


And we know this is the reason how precisely? I cannot see anywhere in this report where it states the owners could not control it properly..........................


----------



## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

poor boy, fingers crossed he will come through it all okay, the article doesn't really say what happened except he was playing in his friends garden, so can't really say if the dog was out of control, (could of been the friends family pet) there have been numerous reports of kids being bitten by usually friendly dogs, and often its a case of people being to relaxed with their dogs and kids, not reading or ignoring signs the dog is unhappy with a situation and not teaching kids to give the dog space etc - that ofc doesn't make it okay and it's always really sad when a child suffers.


----------



## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

Well personally if it was under control there wouldn't have been an attack ...... Not trying to look for an argument here


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

jamat said:


> Well personally if it was under control there wouldn't have been an attack ...... Not trying to look for an argument here


Yes I see your reasoning. A bit like when a man dies at the wheel and kills people in his car because he could not control his car properly..................................


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

You think the owner of the dog died?


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

There really isn't enough in that article to make any conclusions about what happened.
Hope the little boy is okay.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> You think the owner of the dog died?


I don't think anything. The possibilities are endless. I do not jump to conclusions, I wait until I find out the facts before making accusations or judgements

That is how I would like to be treated and that is how I like to treat others.


----------



## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

OK a little more info

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ter-news/man-woman-arrested-after-boy-9788510

Sorry smokeybear its not the same as a man dying at the wheel of a car. The dog should have been supervised is all I'm saying.

I agree I don't know all the facts, didn't say I did but something when seriously wrong and a child got injured even if the dog had been a gentle as a lamb all his life something happened to make him aggressive and as the owner of the dog they need to take some of the responsibility for what happened.


----------



## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> I don't think anything. The possibilities are endless. I do not jump to conclusions, I wait until I find out the facts before making accusations or judgements
> 
> That is how I would like to be treated and that is how I like to treat others.


I was not accusing anyone yes I was making a judgement .... a dog attacked a child something went seriously wrong with the management of the dog..... thats not jumping to conclusions thats a fact as far as I'm concerned


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

_"It is thought the boy was playing in a friend's garden across the road from his home when he was attacked"
_
That suggests to me the dog escaped it's own home/garden to attack the child. However as per usual with all these incidents there is never enough details known and further info never seems to be reported.....

ETA: Ah ok, just read the updated article and it's believed the dog is the pet of the friend the little boy was visiting.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

jamat said:


> OK a little more info
> 
> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ter-news/man-woman-arrested-after-boy-9788510
> 
> ...


Oh dear............................................

We have no idea if the dog was supervised or not. Even from the second link.

If a man was walking his dog on a lead and he died and the dog then bit a child, does this mean the dog was unsupervised? Aggression is just a behaviour and we all exhibit it at some level or another whether it is swearing, shouting, slamming the phone down, giving someone the finger it is all a matter of degree.

Why are you so keen to assign blame before finding out all the facts?

What purpose does it serve?

How about extending to others the courtesy you would expect for yourself by giving the benefit of the doubt until you are cognisant of the full picture?


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

jamat said:


> I was not accusing anyone yes I was making a judgement .... a dog attacked a child something went seriously wrong with the management of the dog..... thats not jumping to conclusions thats a fact as far as I'm concerned


Yep, just the same as when owners lose their dogs, something went seriously wrong with the management of their pet.

When their dogs are stolen, something went seriously wrong with the management of their pet.

When a dog is ill something went seriously wrong with the management of their pet.

Absolutely agree with you, that's a fact


----------



## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Hope the little lad makes a recovery,details are very sketchy so who knows was the dog being teased? did it just turn on the child for no reason?we just don't know.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Unfortunately accidents happen. We had a lady on here only last week with a dog that lives perfectly happily with her own daughter and has never shown any signs of aggression but then bit a young visiting relative while playing in the garden. I doubt its as black and white as just assuming the dog was not being controlled by the owner. It might for instance have been safely shut away in a room or crate and the child of the house might have let it out to show it to his friends. Very sad for the injured child and I hope he makes a full recovery.


----------



## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

Looks like one of the children ran back into the house and I wonder if the dogs escaped then the young boy was on a trampoline who knows why the dog went for him I just hope is he going to be ok


----------



## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Yep, just the same as when owners lose their dogs, something went seriously wrong with the management of their pet.
> 
> When their dogs are stolen, something went seriously wrong with the management of their pet.
> 
> ...


Thanks for putting me right on all the things that are bad management in the world of dogs 

I bow to your superior knowledge and sarcasm :Nailbiting:Eggonface


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

From the articles it's being said that one of the children let the dog out of the house. So it sounds as though the adults turned their back for a minute, or weren't there supervising. Imo 4 year old children shouldn't be jumping on trampolines unsupervised anyway, dog or no dog, so maybe the adult was outside with the children and by the time they realised what was happening it was too late. Trampolines aren't safe, there's probably more accidents involving trampolines than there are incidents involving dogs.  

Either way, technically, if the dog was under control the child wouldn't have been bitten, whatever the reason for his being not being under control, eg stolen, ill, lost, let out, owner died, etc. If the driver of a car died at the wheel, technically the car would no longer be under control would it.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> From the articles it's being said that one of the children let the dog out of the house. So it sounds as though the adults turned their back for a minute, or weren't there supervising. Imo 4 year old children shouldn't be jumping on trampolines unsupervised anyway, dog or no dog, so maybe the adult was outside with the children and by the time they realised what was happening it was too late. Trampolines aren't safe, there's probably more accidents involving trampolines than there are incidents involving dogs.
> 
> Either way, technically, if the dog was under control the child wouldn't have been bitten, whatever the reason for his being not being under control, eg stolen, ill, lost, let out, owner died, etc. If the driver of a car died at the wheel, technically the car would no longer be under control would it.


It is really shocking that an adult could be momentarily distracted for a moment around children, I thought that was unheard of nowadays? And I must have missed where it said in any article that a 4 year old child was on a trampoline unsupervised. Must get new glasses. Trampolines should be banned, however not swings, slides or other toys. I am sure that playground equipment specific legislation should be in place (despite people not approving of breed specific legislation in dogs). Perhaps you could start a petition?

And exactly my point, technically when anything goes wrong, anywhere at any time, control has been lost.

No doubt if the child had been in the garden alone and supervised and was killed by an out of control car that had been driven by a man who suffered a heart attack which went through the fence the parents of the dead child would be equally castigated. I wonder if all these parents of unsupervised children have nothing else to do all day?


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Elles said:


> From the articles it's being said that one of the children let the dog out of the house. So it sounds as though the adults turned their back for a minute, or weren't there supervising. Imo 4 year old children shouldn't be jumping on trampolines unsupervised anyway, dog or no dog, so maybe the adult was outside with the children and by the time they realised what was happening it was too late. Trampolines aren't safe, there's probably more accidents involving trampolines than there are incidents involving dogs.
> 
> Either way, technically, if the dog was under control the child wouldn't have been bitten, whatever the reason for his being not being under control, eg stolen, ill, lost, let out, owner died, etc. If the driver of a car died at the wheel, technically the car would no longer be under control would it.


Why does it have to be the dogs fault?I think the children were out of control.Had the children been properly supervised and under control this wouldn't have happened either.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Where did I say the children were unsupervised? I said maybe they were being supervised, outside with the trampoline, and maybe that's why the dog ended up out of control and bit the child before anyone realised what was happening. If the dog was under control when he bit a 4 year old child, well, technically that would mean someone instructed him to do it wouldn't it. What I don't get, is why the OP is being attacked for saying 'uncontrolled dog' when the alternative, ie controlled, doesn't bear thinking about.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> Where did I say the children were unsupervised? I said maybe they were being supervised, outside with the trampoline, and maybe that's why the dog ended up out of control and bit the child before anyone realised what was happening. If the dog was under control when he bit a 4 year old child, well, technically that would mean someone instructed him to do it wouldn't it. What I don't get, is why the OP is being attacked for saying 'uncontrolled dog' when the alternative, ie controlled, doesn't bear thinking about.


You said "Imo 4 year old children shouldn't be jumping on trampolines unsupervised anyway, dog or no dog"

Why is the OP attacking the reputation of the owners when it is entirely possible that the owners could have been out of control through no fault of their own eg death.

Perhaps if you actually read what you wrote you would not be wondering what you wrote...................... but perhaps you are not fully in control....................


----------



## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

The article does say that the owners have been arrested for having a dog dangerously out of control. The second article adds 'on suspicion of'.


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

All i can say is


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Why do you think by saying the dog is out of control, the owners are to blame? I said that I think 4 year old children shouldn't be jumping on trampolines unsupervised, so maybe the dog's owners agree with me and were outside supervising the children, missing when one of the children let the dog out. Why would that be attacking the reputation of the owners? The owners might well have not been controlling their dog through no fault of their own, but the dog would still be uncontrolled, it wouldn't change it.


----------



## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Jobeth said:


> The article does say that the owners have been arrested for having a dog dangerously out of control. The second article adds 'on suspicion of'.


I think (not sure) but if my dogs ran up to someone on there walk barking or jumping up it could be called "out of control" now days.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Jobeth said:


> The article does say that the owners have been arrested for having a dog dangerously out of control. The second article adds 'on suspicion of'.


Well they are not going to be arrested for theft, burglary or criminal damage are they..............................


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

suewhite said:


> I think (not sure) but if my dogs ran up to someone on there walk barking or jumping up it could be called "out of control" now days.


Yep, people have had their legs broken by boisterous out of control dogs, and that comes under the DDA, it is not restricted to dogs that bite but to any behaviour that causes injury or the fear of injury to people


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

I am just saying that everyone wants to pass judgement without all the facts and everyone is blaming the dog.Well i say it was the kids.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> Why do you think by saying the dog is out of control, the owners are to blame? I said that I think 4 year old children shouldn't be jumping on trampolines unsupervised, so maybe the dog's owners agree with me and were outside supervising the children, missing when one of the children let the dog out. Why would that be attacking the reputation of the owners? The owners might well have not been controlling their dog through no fault of their own, but the dog would still be uncontrolled, it wouldn't change it.


This is such a hysterically funny post that I have had a screenwash moment. Thank you! ROFLMAO


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Rott lover said:


> I am just saying that everyone wants to pass judgement without all the facts and everyone is blaming the dog.Well i say it was the kids.


No, it was Leo passing through Jupiter ascending


----------



## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> You said "Imo 4 year old children shouldn't be jumping on trampolines unsupervised anyway, dog or no dog"
> 
> Why is the OP attacking the reputation of the owners when it is entirely possible that the owners could have been out of control through no fault of their own eg death.
> 
> Perhaps if you actually read what you wrote you would not be wondering what you wrote...................... but perhaps you are not fully in control....................


 I did not attack the owners reputation I did state that they couldn't control their dog (admittedly in this instance) and I will state again whatever happened the dog got to the child and attacked him thus (and this is my personal opinion) no one was in control of the dog.

I'm not quite sure why you (smokeybear) feel you can put people down on here for expressing their opinion, yes it might turn out that I am totally wrong but at the moment this is my opinion.... I'm happy for you to have your own opinion on the issue but I'd prefer a more constructive debate on the issue if thats what you want rather than the constant sarcasm for the sake of it.

at the moment I'd be more than happy if someone could point out a way to delete this bloody thread rather than have to be taken to task on everything I post.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

jamat said:


> I did not attack the owners reputation I did state that they couldn't control their dog (admittedly in this instance) and I will state again whatever happened the dog got to the child and attacked him thus (and this is my personal opinion) no one was in control of the dog.
> 
> I'm not quite sure why you (smokeybear) feel you can put people down on here for expressing their opinion, yes it might turn out that I am totally wrong but at the moment this is my opinion.... I'm happy for you to have your own opinion on the issue but I'd prefer a more constructive debate on the issue if thats what you want rather than the constant sarcasm for the sake of it.
> 
> at the moment I'd be more than happy if someone could point out a way to delete this bloody thread rather than have to be taken to task on everything I post.


You are entitled to jump to conclusions, that is entirely your prerogative just as it is mine to challenge your assumptions. You did not start a debate and if you wished to a constructive one then the original post was not the way to go about it.

That is my opinion to which I am entitled. If you wish to be judgemental let others do the same eh?


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

jamat said:


> I did not attack the owners reputation I did state that they couldn't control their dog (admittedly in this instance) and I will state again whatever happened the dog got to the child and attacked him thus (and this is my personal opinion) no one was in control of the dog.
> 
> I'm not quite sure why you (smokeybear) feel you can put people down on here for expressing their opinion, yes it might turn out that I am totally wrong but at the moment this is my opinion.... I'm happy for you to have your own opinion on the issue but I'd prefer a more constructive debate on the issue if thats what you want rather than the constant sarcasm for the sake of it.
> 
> at the moment I'd be more than happy if someone could point out a way to delete this bloody thread rather than have to be taken to task on everything I post.


It is good to have an opinion but then stick with that opinion instead of taking someone to task for calling you out on it saying you didn't say it or at least pointing out that maybe things may be misconstrued and lost in typing.I still think it was the kids that were out of control and unsupervised.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Wow... what a thread...

Poor little boy, I hope he makes a full recovery.
And I hope this incident is properly and thoroughly investigated by competent experts who can then use the information to educate and improve dog/kid safety. 

I remember about a year ago there was an incident with a pitbull here in the US. The dog was very used to kids, though it seems there was some lack of understanding of dogs as the child who was bitten was riding the dog like a horse right before the bite. It was a freak bite, open mouth, the dog basically tooth clonked the toddler, but because of where the tooth hit, it caused severe internal bleeding, and eventually brain death. Part of me says totally preventable if the kid had not been riding the dog, but then another part of me says freak accidents do happen. 

IOW, you just never know until all the facts come out, and then you still never really know....


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> You said "Imo 4 year old children shouldn't be jumping on trampolines unsupervised anyway, dog or no dog"
> 
> Why is the OP attacking the reputation of the owners when it is entirely possible that the owners could have been out of control through no fault of their own eg death.
> 
> Perhaps if you actually read what you wrote you would not be wondering what you wrote...................... but perhaps you are not fully in control....................


I have to wonder if you have considered getting professional help for your behaviourial problems.



Rott lover said:


> I am just saying that everyone wants to pass judgement without all the facts and everyone is blaming the dog.Well i say it was the kids.


It would not matter if the kids had got hold of the dog and kicked it half to death, if it retaliated it would be in the wrong and would suffer the penalty as would its owners.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Shall we all agree to stick to what we do know which is that a child is in hospital undergoing treatment for injuries inflicted by a dog. Other than that we are all just speculating.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

So Jamat assumed that the dog was uncontrolled by his owners and that's a bad thing to assume? Ok, so maybe the dog was under control when he bit a 4 year old child, I agree we don't know yet, some idiot might have something against 4 year old children and trained their dog to attack on sight. I would think chances are that the children were unsupervised, let the dog out and no-one was under control, but we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

To be fair the article does say "A man and woman, both aged 45, have been arrested on suspicion of possessing a dog dangerously out of control, police said" 

The article itself said the words "out of control". 

Hope the little boy recovers. 

And just to add - ALL trampolines should be banned. We have them either side of us. Blinking pesky things! Boing-boing-boing all afternoon with 1 child making 'woof' noises every time her head appears over my fence ....... 

I detest them and never subjected my neighbours to such noise, having raised 4 children myself.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blitz said:


> I have to wonder if you have considered getting professional help for your behaviourial problems.
> 
> *It would not matter if the kids had got hold of the dog and kicked it half to death, if it retaliated it would be in the wrong and would suffer the penalty as would its owners.*


Seriously? are you seriously saying that under the DDA the dog would die and the owner would be prosecuted if a dog bit a child that had kicked it half to death?


----------



## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

Rott lover said:


> It is good to have an opinion but then stick with that opinion instead of taking someone to task for calling you out on it saying you didn't say it or at least pointing out that maybe things may be misconstrued and lost in typing.I still think it was the kids that were out of control and unsupervised.


For a start I was not taking anyone to task on their opinion but on the sarcastic way every post I put up was replied to. I'm happy for people to have their own opinion on the matter and I will happily discuss those opinions in a grown up way but this is just getting too much like hard work.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

My children have had plenty of unsupervised moments, with dogs, some of them even on the trampoline. Just saying’....


----------



## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I have just been watching the kids next door teasing and climbing all over the dog it has now tried to get away by hiding under a shrub,so often there are two sides to these so called attacks,just off to tell the kids to leave the poor dog alone.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

jamat said:


> For a start I was not taking anyone to task on their opinion but on the sarcastic way every post I put up was replied to. I'm happy for people to have their own opinion on the matter and I will happily discuss those opinions in a grown up way but this is just getting too much like hard work.


Some members do have their own very individual posting style - best to put anyone that winds you up too much on ignore that way you get to enjoy the forum without the stress


----------



## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Some members do have their own very individual posting style - best to put anyone that winds you up too much on ignore that way you get to enjoy the forum without the stress


Cheers  for the advice

I think from now on I'll just post cute pictures of my dog and "like" cute pictures of other dogs and stay out of the debating threads  its not worth the hassle


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

jamat said:


> I think from now on I'll just post cute pictures of my dog and "like" cute pictures of other dogs and stay out of the debating threads  its not worth the hassle


No need to do that.
It's just that you started a thread that was bound to cause a bit of a stir


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Shall we all agree to stick to what we do know which is that a child is in hospital undergoing treatment for injuries inflicted by a dog. Other than that we are all just speculating.


Fine you win with your logic(damn logic always gets in the way)


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I just find these kind of threads really confusing to be honest. We should not speculate or draw up our own conclusions because we do not know the facts and wasn't there....yet we do that very same thing when someone comes on here claiming their dog was attacked...;report them to the dog warden', demand vet bills' etc etc. As none of us were there maybe those who do the same in those threads should wait to gather all the 'facts' before jumping on the bandwagon.

It's perfectly natural to speculate about stories in the media. Hence why they're reported in the first place, to generate interest & conversation.

I'm not ashamed at all to admit I often prejudge such incidents. Because that's human nature. And 'telling' people in a derogatory manner what they should or shouldn't be assuming/posting or whatever is not pleasant.


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

@ jamat....Don't do that that wouldn't be fair to us.


----------



## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Well that escalated quickly lol


----------



## jamat (Jun 3, 2015)

Well to be honest this has left a bad taste in my mouth I'm going to take a few days away from the forum because its totally hacked me off


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

jamat said:


> Cheers  for the advice
> 
> I think from now on I'll just post cute pictures of my dog and "like" cute pictures of other dogs and stay out of the debating threads  its not worth the hassle


You are most welcome. Don't take it personally, just grow a thick skin and carry on, your opinion is as valid as anyone else's (even if I don't agree with you )


----------



## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

jamat said:


> OK a little more info
> 
> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ter-news/man-woman-arrested-after-boy-9788510
> 
> ...


If they were playing on a trampoline they could have been shouting and squealing etc so when one child ran inside (assuming its the child who lived there that the dog knew) the dog ran out at what he saw as something jumping up and down and shouting or squealing excitedly?

When my neighbours were next door and had grandkids over they put their swing set near to lowest part of fence so all JJ can see is something going up and down above the top of the fence and them making excitable noises. I ended up having to bring him in and take mine in front lounge with telly on as I couldn't leave back door open and relax with them running in and out of house every 5 mins squealing! (her back door is right next to mine and slatted fencing) The kids were a pain in the ass.

The parents should have either told the kids they had to be quiet around the dog and not move too fast or made sure the dog couldn't get out if the kids ran in. The poor dog will be the one that suffers as it will probably get put down.


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> I just find these kind of threads really confusing to be honest. We should not speculate or draw up our own conclusions because we do not know the facts and wasn't there....yet we do that very same thing when someone comes on here claiming their dog was attacked...;report them to the dog warden', demand vet bills' etc etc. As none of us were there maybe those who do the same in those threads should wait to gather all the 'facts' before jumping on the bandwagon.
> 
> It's perfectly natural to speculate about stories in the media. Hence why they're reported in the first place, to generate interest & conversation.
> 
> I'm not ashamed at all to admit I often prejudge such incidents. Because that's human nature. And 'telling' people in a derogatory manner what they should or shouldn't be assuming/posting or whatever is not pleasant.


As i have many times as well.I have been taken to task many times and also been very Ticked off.That is part of debating things such as this.I can think of a few people that have really irritated me on here and i am sure i have done the same.However everyone on here has really good advice and also cares for animals.When you get many people debating things they are passionate about then things are going to heat up.It doesn't mean we hate the others just having a good debate.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

IncaThePup said:


> If they were playing on a trampoline they could have been shouting and squealing etc so when one child ran inside (assuming its the child who lived there that the dog knew) the dog ran out at what he saw as something jumping up and down and shouting or squealing excitedly?
> 
> When my neighbours were next door and had grandkids over they put their swing set near to lowest part of fence so all JJ can see is something going up and down above the top of the fence and them making excitable noises. I ended up having to bring him in and take mine in front lounge with telly on as I couldn't leave back door open and relax with them running in and out of house every 5 mins squealing! (her back door is right next to mine and slatted fencing) The kids were a pain in the ass.
> *
> The parents should have either told the kids they had to be quiet around the dog and not move too fast or made sure the dog couldn't get out if the kids ran in. The poor dog will be the one that suffers as it will probably get put down*.


How do you know they hadn't told the kids that? how do you know the parents hadn't secured the dog somewhere? The dog is not the only one that will suffer, please remember a young child is suffering and will no doubt carry scars/fears around dogs for the rest of his life. The owners of the dog are also likely to suffer not only from feelings of guilt but they will probably face court action and possible prison too which also means their own children will suffer. So all round everyone suffers.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

jamat said:


> as the owner of the dog they need to take some of the responsibility for what happened.


Where does it say that they haven't taken responsibility?

It's a terrible thing to have happened. I hope the little boy especially will make a full recovery. My thoughts are with all concerned.

Making presumptions however is not helpful. Leave the judgement and assessments to the professionals. There are behaviour specialists who will in legal cases (as I suspect this one will be) assess the dog, investigate why it happened, who was responsible,if of course they don't kill the dog before any such investigation can take place (you won't get any answers if that happens).

The title of this thread is in itself very misleading.

'Yet another...' Do you have the statistics to substantiate that it is happening all the time, with increasing regularity?

Compassion to all those involved is all I have to offer. I hope this can be resolved in the best way possible now.


----------



## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Sorry to throw my two pennies worth in here, but I think that certain replies here were unnecessary and slightly pedantic, when the OP harmlessly started a new thread.

Anyway Jamat, I hope you are not away for too long  I like your posts and your pics of Alfie!


----------



## MyAnimals (Aug 14, 2014)

Poor kid, and so avoidable. When our children have friends over my dogs don't leave my sight. Even if I go to the toilet they are put in their crate. They are both friendly, we know that, but they are both a little over friendly. If they knocked a child over being too boisterous then went for a big kiss while they're on the floor, kid screams, dog is alarmed and lashes out, it could so easily happen to a friendly dog who isn't used to such a commotion. It's not worth the risk for anyone involved so they're kept at a distance, they can have a calm stroke if the kid is interested enough, otherwise they don't need to mix. Some might think that's a shame and the wrong way to go about things (dogs should socialise blah blah), but personally I don't want to take the chance with two strong dogs.


----------



## MyAnimals (Aug 14, 2014)

Although reading the article it doesn't say it was the friends dog that attacked him, just he was playing in a friends garden. Maybe the dog was from another house and got into their garden. Who knows. But whatever the circumstances, it shouldn't have happened. I hope the poor boy recovers mentally as well as physically.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

MyAnimals said:


> Poor kid, and so avoidable. When our children have friends over my dogs don't leave my sight. Even if I go to the toilet they are put in their crate. They are both friendly, we know that, but they are both a little over friendly. If they knocked a child over being too boisterous then went for a big kiss while they're on the floor, kid screams, dog is alarmed and lashes out, it could so easily happen to a friendly dog who isn't used to such a commotion. It's not worth the risk for anyone involved so they're kept at a distance, they can have a calm stroke if the kid is interested enough, otherwise they don't need to mix. Some might think that's a shame and the wrong way to go about things (dogs should socialise blah blah), but personally I don't want to take the chance with two strong dogs.


Wow I do think that's a shame...
If I had to crate my dogs every time I went to the bathroom for fear of an unsupervised dog/kid interaction, then I'd have to seriously question the suitability of my dogs as pets.

Up until recently (2 years ago) we had 2 great danes, and 2 large mutts, and we have 2 children who bring friends home all the time. At some point you have to be able to trust your dog to handle kids being kids.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I don't think anything. The possibilities are endless. I do not jump to conclusions, I wait until I find out the facts before making accusations or judgements
> 
> That is how I would like to be treated and that is how I like to treat others.


It always strikes me that you like to treat people as though they were idiots.

They aren't. Please don't be so superior.


----------



## caju (Jan 3, 2015)

Surely it's implicit that the dog was out of control when he bit the child? The alternative is that he was under control and bit a child, in which case it was murder.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I think the term "out of control" is a very grey one personally. Was my dog really the one "out of control" when on leash, muzzled and accosted in the street by 5 off leash dogs, one of whom was injured by him when it got past me and reached him? In a way I suppose he was as if he'd been under complete control he wouldn't have retaliated had I told him not to. But dogs aren't robots, I don't believe that you can ever have 100% control over a living animal, there's always that chance they'll behave in an unexpected (or expected in Ruperts case) manner to something or there'll be a situation outside of your control. And having had god only knows how many kids (and adults for that matter) come rushing up to fling their arms around my dogs, bark in their faces, hit them or do other seriously inappropriate and stupid things I'm surprised there aren't MORE bites to be honest.

Not sure why these threads always end up in a "it was the dog at fault" "no it was the owners" "no it was the child" "no it was the parents" sort of thing. We have no facts on what happened other than a child was injured by a dog. I hope the boy recovers fully and quickly.


----------



## MyAnimals (Aug 14, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Wow I do think that's a shame...
> If I had to crate my dogs every time I went to the bathroom for fear of an unsupervised dog/kid interaction, then I'd have to seriously question the suitability of my dogs as pets.
> 
> Up until recently (2 years ago) we had 2 great danes, and 2 large mutts, and we have 2 children who bring friends home all the time. At some point you have to be able to trust your dog to handle kids being kids.


Not EVERY time I go to the bathroom. Only if we have unknown kids in the house (our children's friends). I trust them with our own kids. It's just to avoid problems. We don't really know these other kids and for all I know they might be all over the dogs as soon as my back's turned. My dogs don't know them, I can't say for sure that they won't be upset by something like that. At the end of the day it's just managing two bull breeds and young children who I am responsible for that day. I don't ever want to be that family in the paper. Day to day life is as normal as any other family with kids and dogs, but I will not risk my dogs and other children unsupervised together. I don't care what anyone thinks about that.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> Not sure why these threads always end up in a "it was the dog at fault" "no it was the owners" "no it was the child" "no it was the parents" sort of thing. We have no facts on what happened other than a child was injured by a dog. I hope the boy recovers fully and quickly.


You forgot the comments on what breed the dog was or was not 

But yeah... we are kind of obsessed with finding fault aren't we. 
Probably as always a combination of factors, the perfect storm of things that lead up to a worst-case scenario. 
I wish instead of finding fault we would find the lesson in these incidents and try to learn from them. Instead it seems we tend to look at them in an attempt to assure ourselves it won't happen to us. "Oh, I don't ever leave kids unsupervised," or "I don't have *that* breed," or "my children have more dog sense than that"... It's like we find fault in order to assuage our own fears....


----------



## wannabe dogowner (Feb 24, 2013)

whilst you are in the loo, one of these kids could surely let the dog out of its crate, or stick their fingers in etc?

I would do the same as you and agree with you that it lowers the odds of a problem considerably, but that does not mean you are totally immune does it? Those kids who you know fairly little about are easily capable of making a poor choice while your back is turned.

Not in any way having a pop at you, just using it to illustrate the point that incidents can occur however much you do to try to avoid them. For all we know, that is what happened to this family


----------



## MyAnimals (Aug 14, 2014)

wannabe dogowner said:


> whilst you are in the loo, one of these kids could surely let the dog out of its crate, or stick their fingers in etc?
> 
> I would do the same as you and agree with you that it lowers the odds of a problem considerably, but that does not mean you are totally immune does it? Those kids who you know fairly little about are easily capable of making a poor choice while your back is turned.
> 
> Not in any way having a pop at you, just using it to illustrate the point that incidents can occur however much you do to try to avoid them. For all we know, that is what happened to this family


I know, but you just do your best. I'm just saying that some of these accidents could be avoided with a bit of management. Short of banning the kids friends from the house, you can't 100% be risk free. But I'm happy knowing that I keep my dogs under control, even though I'm 99% sure they are friendly and would never hurt a kid. But isn't that what they all say when you hear of these stories.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

MyAnimals said:


> Not EVERY time I go to the bathroom. Only if we have unknown kids in the house (our children's friends). I trust them with our own kids. It's just to avoid problems. We don't really know these other kids and for all I know they might be all over the dogs as soon as my back's turned. My dogs don't know them, I can't say for sure that they won't be upset by something like that. At the end of the day it's just managing two bull breeds and young children who I am responsible for that day. I don't ever want to be that family in the paper. Day to day life is as normal as any other family with kids and dogs, but I will not risk my dogs and other children unsupervised together. I don't care what anyone thinks about that.


To each their own...

We currently have one great dane and one muttdog who's part bull-breed. Both are fantastic with kids, have great coping skills, know how to get themselves out of awkward situations, deal with anomalies well, and I expect to be able to handle stupid kid behavior. In the same way I expect myself to handle stupid kid behavior without feeling the need to use violence. 
I don't expect perfection either. I know my dogs could bite given the wrong set of circumstances, but I also know that my dogs both have excellent bite inhibition, and good warning mechanisms so the odds of it being anything serious are slim.

It's a calculated risk any time you bring a child in to your home that's not yours. The kid could choke on a grape, or fall down the stairs and get a brain injury. The dogs are a very minimal risk considering all the other things that could happen.

I'm going to insist all kids in my vehicle buckle up and are in the correct carriers/booster seats - that's something I stress over far more than one of them pulling a dog's tail and getting bitten.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

The truth is, at this point, nobody knows what happened, apart from the people who witnessed it.

The dog could have been 'out of control', then again, it could have been asleep and a child could have jumped on it.

I really don't see how trampolines have any relevance.

I brought up two boys, always had a houseful of their friends, and I had seven dogs, one of which I didn't trust with kiddies other than my own, so she was crated when other children were in the house.

I never had a child bitten here. 

I'm sure the adults involved feel terrible about the injuries to this little boy. The inevitable wild speculation that follows an event like this must feel equally as bad.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

ouesi said:


> My children have had plenty of unsupervised moments, with dogs, some of them even on the trampoline.


When they were 4 years old?  You're braver than me.



ouesi said:


> or fall down the stairs and get a brain injury


Or fall off a trampoline, get trapped, hit their head, break their back...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...od-accidents-leaving-adults-injured-life.html


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Elles said:


> When they were 4 years old?  You're braver than me.
> 
> Or fall off a trampoline, get trapped, hit their head, break their back...
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2874008/Why-trampolines-causing-crisis-E-account-HALF-childhood-accidents-leaving-adults-injured-life.html


Well, of course a child could fall off a trampoline and be injured. A child could be injured playing football or netball or even running round in the school playground.

When I was a kid, we used to climb trees all the time and we used to sledge down steep slopes in the snow.

With all children, parents have to be aware of dangers, from strangers or traffic, but kids need to be kids, in my opinion, and if you stopped them from doing any activity where an accident could result, you would be wrapping them in cotton wool and that can't be healthy.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Christ I am glad I was allowed to be a street urchin as kid.... Out on my own walking other people's dogs from no age never got bitten, I did how ever run in to a tree being chased by a OES and cracked my teeth.... Both me and the dog survived. Also did trampoline, played football, went down HUGE slides... No doubt ate mud and worms too!!


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Did you read the article? If my children were playing on a trampoline, I'd be watching them like a hawk, especially if there were a number of children and at least one of them was only 4. If you guys want to let your children and their friends play on trampolines unsupervised, that's up to you, but I was being deadly serious in my post about them, not being sarcastic as someone might have thought.

So when I said maybe the adults were supervising the kids on the trampoline and missed that their dog got let out, I meant it.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Tbh I can't remember if I was allowed to climb trees, go sledging and walk other people's dogs when I was 4. I doubt it though.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Elles said:


> When they were 4 years old?  You're braver than me.


Not brave, I call it intelligent risk assessment 
At four I knew my kids, knew my dogs, and there were plenty of moments of the kids being outside and I had to run in for something, or they were downstairs and I had to run downstairs for something, or I simply had to pee like a normal human. In all of those cases, I did not crate all 4 dogs or bring both children in to the bathroom with me. 
At 4 both kids were transitioning to their own rooms and often slept with a dog in the bed with them. Unsupervised.

Our dogs are all taught coping skills, pumped full of positive kid associations, and treated with respect. They have solid temperaments, plenty of stress relief, and when the odd anomaly happens they tend to take it in stride.
Our kids are taught self-control, respect for the dogs, and we model respectful behavior around the dogs that the kids emulate. No, I don't expect either kids or dogs to be perfect, but the risk is minimal based on what I know of my kids and my dogs.

I'm not going to live with dogs as if they were wild animals. They're not. Dogs have evolved alongside humans and are well suited to live in our homes with us without snacking on our children. I don't think it's too much to ask of a dog to be able to cope with a kid being a kid for the amount of time it takes me to go pee.



Elles said:


> Or fall off a trampoline, get trapped, hit their head, break their back...


Yeah, I grew up riding horses and live every day with the permanent injuries from that. We all choose our poison. I won't let my kids ride ATVs, but I'm okay with them bouncing on a trampoline with sensible precautions in place.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Elles said:


> Tbh I can't remember if I was allowed to climb trees, go sledging and walk other people's dogs when I was 4. I doubt it though.


Really? Not even climb a tree?! OMG that is so polar opposite to how my two have lived their childhoods! They've grown up half wild, and I wouldn't have it any other way!


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Seriously? are you seriously saying that under the DDA the dog would die and the owner would be prosecuted if a dog bit a child that had kicked it half to death?


Of course they would be, a dog is not allowed to bite humans because the majority of the population actually thinks humans more important than animals.



ouesi said:


> Wow I do think that's a shame...
> If I had to crate my dogs every time I went to the bathroom for fear of an unsupervised dog/kid interaction, then I'd have to seriously question the suitability of my dogs as pets.
> 
> Up until recently (2 years ago) we had 2 great danes, and 2 large mutts, and we have 2 children who bring friends home all the time. At some point you have to be able to trust your dog to handle kids being kids.


I quite agree, it makes me shudder when people say they crate their dogs when they go to the bathroom. What a life for both owners and dogs. My daughter had her own dog when she was 3. They spent all their time together. Meg supervised my daughter very well . And her friends


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

But, but, this was friends playing at a friend's house, on a trampoline with a 4 year old child. Not kids playing at home with their dog. One of the kids let the dog out.

You'd honestly let someone else's 4 year old play out in your garden on your trampoline unsupervised? And with your dogs? 

I wouldn't, so I'm being over protective and wrapping my children up in cotton wool?  And I thought I was being sensible.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> Tbh I can't remember if I was allowed to climb trees, go sledging and walk other people's dogs when I was 4. I doubt it though.


I was! My neighbour also bit me at that age, oh and I bit my sister!! I climbed the washing lines outside our flats I was about 5 when I climbed a tree and fell on a fence when a branch snapped, a few years on I was caught riding horses out to grass in the field behind our house bare back!!!


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

One of my favorite photos of the kiddos.
At a friend's barn, they had just helped bring the horses in and feed them. They were still in preschool here, so at the most 5 years old.


----------



## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

MyAnimals said:


> Poor kid, and so avoidable. When our children have friends over my dogs don't leave my sight. Even if I go to the toilet they are put in their crate. They are both friendly, we know that, but they are both a little over friendly. If they knocked a child over being too boisterous then went for a big kiss while they're on the floor, kid screams, dog is alarmed and lashes out, it could so easily happen to a friendly dog who isn't used to such a commotion. It's not worth the risk for anyone involved so they're kept at a distance, they can have a calm stroke if the kid is interested enough, otherwise they don't need to mix. Some might think that's a shame and the wrong way to go about things (dogs should socialise blah blah), but personally I don't want to take the chance with two strong dogs.


I wish everyone was this ^^ sensible.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Meezey said:


> I was! My neighbour also bit me at that age, oh and I bit my sister!!


LOL my son got bitten on his arm when he was 3 or 4 from another child. They were supervised when it happened, playing on a swing set. It was a for real bite too, broke the skin and left a nasty raised bruise. Maybe should have crated the kid


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> LOL my son got bitten on his arm when he was 3 or 4 from another child. They were supervised when it happened, playing on a swing set. It was a for real bite too, broke the skin and left a nasty raised bruise. Maybe should have crated the kid


Me too and my poor sister still has the scar where I bit her arm


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

As kids, we played out, largely unsupervised.

We built dens, climbed trees, had picnics and once found an old bike which we tied together with string and rode at silly speeds. I fell off it more than once and ended up full of bruises and scrapes. We had a mongrel bitch and she went everywhere with us, offlead. She slept with us. We had endless fun and all survived to tell the tale.

What the heck. Maybe kids are safer and better off sitting in front of a computer or television screen, if you rule out the fact that childhood obesity is now becoming an issue.

Childhood can never be made 100% safe but childhood shouldn't be stifled or diverted because a parent is afraid their kid may fall off a trampoline.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Me too and my poor sister still has the scar where I bit her arm


My sister broke my tooth off kicking me in the face by accident, don't feel bad, I think part of childhood is bearing the scars from your siblings


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I'd trust my own dogs with my own kids and no, I wouldn't crate to go for a pee, I don't have a crate. Would I trust someone else's 4 year old with my dog? Nope. Would I risk someone else's 4 year old on a trampoline unsupervised? Nope. If someone else's young children came to my home to play with my children when they were very young, I'd be watching. I'd probably take the dog to the loo with me and they'd have to get off the trampoline until I got back. Little children aren't to be trusted and if anything happened, how could I face their parents and tell them I wasn't there. 

I can't see your photo Ouesi. 

But hey ho. Clearly some people think it's okay to leave 4 year olds to their own devices, even 4 year olds that belong to someone else. I personally don't agree. Accidents do happen, but if I'm responsible for someone else's child at my home, I'd want to be able to deal with any accident immediately, be able to inform the parents what happened and know that I did my best to keep them from harm, not have to say, I have no idea, I wasn't there. It may be that the parents didn't know there was a 4 year old in their garden, but that would be something else entirely.

In my view trampolines are high risk, so I wouldn't permit other people's children to play on one unsupervised in my garden. What they get up to somewhere else is not my problem.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Sweety said:


> As kids, we played out, largely unsupervised.
> 
> We built dens, climbed trees, had picnics and once found an old bike which we tied together with string and rode at silly speeds. I fell off it more than once and ended up full of bruises and scrapes. We had a mongrel bitch and she went everywhere with us, offlead. She slept with us. We had endless fun and all survived to tell the tale.
> 
> ...


It might be generational...
We grew up playing outside all day until dark when we had to come home. Our cue was the streetlights coming on. That meant time to come home. Same thing, we got in to all sorts of things imagining different ways to entertain ourselves, usually the family dog was with us, or if not one of the local strays tagged along for the day.

My own modern day kids have grown up outside too. We live out in the boonies and they have endless woods and fields to play in. As soon as they were old enough to work the walkie-talkie they were allowed to roam further. I'm more careful with them than my mom was with us, I check on them periodically, or just holler down to the stream and wait for a holler back  I only ask that they bring a dog with them, as a safety precaution.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> I'd trust my own dogs with my own kids and no, I wouldn't crate to go for a pee, I don't have a crate. Would I trust someone else's 4 year old with my dog? Nope. Would I risk someone else's 4 year old on a trampoline unsupervised? Nope. If someone else's young children came to my home to play with my children when they were very young, I'd be watching. I'd probably take the dog to the loo with me and they'd have to get off the trampoline until I got back. Little children aren't to be trusted and if anything happened, how could I face their parents and tell them I wasn't there.
> 
> I can't see your photo Ouesi.
> 
> ...


I also swallowed lead paint in a neighbours garage  I was 8 then....


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> It might be generational...
> We grew up playing outside all day until dark when we had to come home. Our cue was the streetlights coming on. That meant time to come home. Same thing, we got in to all sorts of things imagining different ways to entertain ourselves, usually the family dog was with us, or if not one of the local strays tagged along for the day.
> 
> My own modern day kids have grown up outside too. We live out in the boonies and they have endless woods and fields to play in. As soon as they were old enough to work the walkie-talkie they were allowed to roam further. I'm more careful with them than my mom was with us, I check on them periodically, or just holler down to the stream and wait for a holler back  I only ask that they bring a dog with them, as a safety precaution.


My Sons used to play out all the time. I always used to know exactly where they were and check on them regularly.

They were happy, healthy and slim. They still are now, in their thirties.

Of course children can't be left entirely to their own devices, but these days, it's rare here to see a child playing out.

It seems to be the norm for children to sit indoors, staring at a screen.

Extremes are never good, but surely there has to be balance and refusing to allow a child to do anything that just might result in an injury is taking it too far.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Generational? I was born in the 50s, is that the right generation? I'm not talking about what we got up to, or what our children got up to, or what they get up to when we're not there, or keeping them indoors playing computer games. I'm talking about someone else's very young child playing at my house, in my garden, on my trampoline, with my knowledge and being told I should just leave them to it and if they have an accident and break their neck and the dog bites them, well hey ho, it's not my fault. I was sitting in the house watching Judge Judy repeats at the time, what do you expect, kids will be kids and my dog's soft as the proverbial.

All the things you say you got up to when you were children, just proves my point. Not on my watch you won't. 

Why am I refusing to allow a child to do anything that might cause them injury and turning them into couch potatoes?  I'm supervising someone else's 4 year old in my garden while he plays on my trampoline. That's a crime?

I'm sorry, but I'm amazed. :Hilarious


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Elles said:


> But hey ho. Clearly some people think it's okay to leave 4 year olds to their own devices,


Oh, come on, that's a bit of a stretch...
I gave clear examples of having to run upstairs and leave the kids downstairs or something like that. At 4 most kids can handle that. And it's a far stretch from running upstairs for a moment to leaving 4 year olds to their own devices.

Though it wasn't much past four that I started letting my two go off wandering on the property. They had a "fort" they built in a gully by the house, and they would spend hours down there playing let's pretend games. I couldn't see them in the gully but I could tell by where the dogs were, where the kids were


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I'll tell you a (potentially?) funny story about my middle boy. He was about 10 I think. I caught him and his mates climbing on the roof of the local youth centre. I yelled at them to get off the roof and gave them dire warnings about what would happen if I caught them doing it again. A few days later, I was walking down the lane by the school and caught them sitting on the roof of the temporary school buildings. I yelled at them again and said 'What did I tell you!!!? Get off there, right now!' The answer you probably guessed. 'But you didn't tell us not to climb on *this* roof.'


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> Generational? I was born in the 50s, is that the right generation? I'm not talking about what we got up to, or what our children got up to, or what they get up to when we're not there, or keeping them indoors playing computer games. I'm talking about someone else's very young child playing at my house, in my garden, on my trampoline, with my knowledge and being told I should just leave them to it and if they have an accident and break their neck and the dog bites them, well hey ho, it's not my fault. I was sitting in the house watching Judge Judy repeats at the time, what do you expect, kids will be kids and my dog's soft as the proverbial.
> 
> All the things you say you got up to when you were children, just proves my point. Not on my watch you won't.
> 
> ...


But you don't know if they knew the 4 year old was on their trampoline?


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I am still glad I had the freedom I did, mistakes, accidents and mishaps too... I was born in the 70's..


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Meezey said:


> But you don't know if they knew the 4 year old was on their trampoline?


No, I don't, that's why I said 'with my knowledge'. I already said earlier that they might not have known a 4 year old was in their garden, unless I edited it out, which I might have, I'm so surprised at the reaction to my trampoline post, which turned into a playing with dogs in the river after riding horses out in the wilderness in the good old days. :Hilarious

Lol, I'm just supervising someone else's 4 year old in my garden while they play on a trampoline with my dog.:Jawdrop


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

This is where I'm going wrong. I should crate the kids and let the dog on the trampoline.






All joking aside, it's very sad for the parents, the child and the dog.


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

Meezey said:


> I also swallowed lead paint in a neighbours garage  I was 8 then....


Thaaaaaat explains alooooooooooot........


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I was too scared to climb trees at 4 lol. But I played out in the yard unsupervised or perhaps just with someone watching out the window while cooking or washing dishes or whatever. At 11 I broke my face falling off my bike and smashing it into the only rock in the area. I fell off a roundabout in the park at 3 and destroyed a tooth and my lip. My mum fell down the stairs with me at 6 weeks old. I had my face quite badly clawed by a cat when I was 8. There's risk to everything. And we have no idea that the kids were even unsupervised on the trampoline unless I've missed something. A dog attack can happen so quickly that we're pretty powerless to prevent it, especially if we're not even expecting the dog to be there. And it doesn't necessarily take much for a large dog to injure a small child.

I do take Spen to the bathroom with me at the moment. Or baby gate him out of the room I've left Jack in while I go if I'm home alone. I seriously, seriously doubt Spen would even attempt to harm him but all it could take is a misplaced paw or for him to jump up to investigate if he cries to hurt him or knock over the moses basket or whatever. Just not worth risking it. When he's older it'll be sensible precautions. Whatever they may be given the individual child and dog.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I have to wonder if you have considered getting professional help for your behaviourial problems.
> 
> It would not matter if the kids had got hold of the dog and kicked it half to death, if it retaliated it would be in the wrong and would suffer the penalty as would its owners.


Let me put your wondering to an end thus far I have not a) been diagnosed by a competent professional with any behavioural problems and b) if I had been I would take their advice. However everyone has an opinion and you are entitled to yours, however uninformed and misinformed it may be.


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Let me put your wondering to an end thus far I have not a) been diagnosed by a competent professional with any behavioural problems and b) if I had been I would take their advice. However everyone has an opinion and you are entitled to yours, however uninformed and misinformed it may be.


Who tested you for behavioral problems Dr.Suess:Wacky


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lostbear said:


> It always strikes me that you like to treat people as though they were idiots.
> 
> They aren't. Please don't be so superior.


I can't help being superior, I was born that way. It is out of my control................


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> And we have no idea that the kids were even unsupervised on the trampoline unless I've missed something. A dog attack can happen so quickly that we're pretty powerless to prevent it, especially if we're not even expecting the dog to be there.


Which is exactly what I was saying.  I said trampolines are risky, so maybe the adults were supervising the children on the trampoline and missed the dog being let out, until it was too late. First I got laughed at by smokey who I think thought I was joking or being sarcastic or something, then told I'm turning children into couch potatoes. 

Of course I agree with Ouesi and others, it is best if dogs are accustomed to children and don't attack them, but this particular dog was sadly out of control and for whatever reason if adults were there they weren't quick, or savvy enough to prevent a bite.  I have absolutely no idea whose fault it is, if it's anybody's.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

caju said:


> Surely it's implicit that the dog was out of control when he bit the child? The alternative is that he was under control and bit a child, in which case it was murder.


Wow, not even manslaughter but actual murder? There is another leap into legal jurisprudence history.............................


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> When they were 4 years old?  You're braver than me.
> 
> Or fall off a trampoline, get trapped, hit their head, break their back...
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...od-accidents-leaving-adults-injured-life.html


children die every day in road traffic accidents, better stop transporting them in cars.

children die every day in their sleep, better stop them sleeping.

Nothing in life is risk free, but hey lets spend a lot of time making other parents and dog owners feel inadequate


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I agree with the sentiment, the dog was either out of control, or he wasn't, if he was under control it implies that someone instructed or trained him to bite a child. It would only be murder if it was deliberate, planned and the child was dead though.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Rott lover said:


> Who tested you for behavioral problems Dr.Suess:Wacky


As I said, I have not been diagnosed with behavioural problems; nor have I been tested for them ............... yet!


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> As I said, I have not been diagnosed with behavioural problems; nor have I been tested for them ............... yet!


I can give you my professional opinion......


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> You said "Imo 4 year old children shouldn't be jumping on trampolines unsupervised anyway, dog or no dog"
> 
> Why is the OP attacking the reputation of the owners when it is entirely possible that the owners could have been out of control through no fault of their own eg death.
> 
> Perhaps if you actually read what you wrote you would not be wondering what you wrote...................... but perhaps you are not fully in control....................


You kill me sometimes...


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

caju said:


> Surely it's implicit that the dog was out of control when he bit the child? The alternative is that he was under control and bit a child, in which case it was murder.


I can't wait for this on Rinder


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> As I said, I have not been diagnosed with behavioural problems; nor have I been tested for them ............... yet!


How do you know this forum isn't one ?


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Which parent or dog owner feels inadequate, because I said I'd be supervising the kids on the trampoline and might miss seeing the dog get out, as I don't think 4 year old children should be playing on trampolines unsupervised?

Is there anyone on petforums who feels inadequate, because of this? Does anyone having read that 50% of accidents resulting in A+E attendance for children under the age of 14 are trampoline accidents, now think trampolines may be more risky than they thought? Certainly more likely to cause injury than a pet dog. The trampoline is dangerous, the dog might not be. As it happens, on this occasion, he was. Where on earth am I making anyone feel inadequate?  I'm suggesting that in a similar situation, I'd be more concerned about the trampoline than the dog. Unless I knew my dog was an evil beast who ate children for breakfast. Then I might rate him higher on the danger scale than the trampoline.

Unless I'm making Smokey feel inadequate of course and that I doubt very much.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> Which parent or dog owner feels inadequate, because I said I'd be supervising the kids on the trampoline and might miss seeing the dog get out, as I don't think 4 year old children should be playing on trampolines unsupervised?
> 
> Is there anyone on petforums who feels inadequate, because of this? Does anyone having read that 50% of accidents resulting in A+E attendance for children under the age of 14 are trampoline accidents, now think trampolines may be more risky than they thought? Certainly more likely to cause injury than a pet dog. The trampoline is dangerous, the dog might not be. As it happens, on this occasion, he was. Where on earth am I making anyone feel inadequate?  I'm suggesting that in a similar situation, I'd be more concerned about the trampoline than the dog. Unless I knew my dog was an evil beast who ate children for breakfast. Then I might rate him higher on the danger scale than the trampoline.
> 
> Unless I'm making Smokey feel inadequate of course and that I doubt very much.


As Eleanor Roosevelt famously said "no one can make you feel inadequate without your consent" and you do not have mine. ROFLMAO

As I am actually a H & S professional there is really not much point in trying to quote stats to me about the relative dangers of trampolines or any other piece of equipment. I deal with the subject on a daily basis...............................


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I can't help being superior, I was born that way. It is out of my control................


Well if you can't control yourself, there's no way you should be in charge of a dog, or giving advice to other people about what they should and shouldn't be doing. You may consider yourself superior - and perhaps you "can't control" your opinion - you can control being snotty, though.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I also swallowed lead paint in a neighbours garage  I was 8 then....


Made you the man/woman you are today!


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Elles said:


> Which is exactly what I was saying.  I said trampolines are risky, so maybe the adults were supervising the children on the trampoline and missed the dog being let out, until it was too late. First I got laughed at by smokey who I think thought I was joking or being sarcastic or something, then told I'm turning children into couch potatoes.
> 
> Of course I agree with Ouesi and others, it is best if dogs are accustomed to children and don't attack them, but this particular dog was sadly out of control and for whatever reason if adults were there they weren't quick, or savvy enough to prevent a bite.  I have absolutely no idea whose fault it is, if it's anybody's.


But, you're assuming an awful lot.

Were the kids on the trampoline being supervised? They may well have been. "This particular dog was sadly out of control", how do you know?

My JR bitch has snarled only once in her life, at me. She was on my bed one morning and was having a flare up of her IBD. I got one of her Preds, went to give it to her, and I tried to pick her up. She snarled. My fault, she was in pain and I hurt her.

I coaxed her off the bed, gave her medication, and soon, she was her old self.

Was she out of control? She was in pain and didn't want to be touched. I don't appreciate any dog snarling at me, but she wasn't threatening me, just trying to communicate.

What really happened between this dog and poor child? 'Maybe' the child did something and the dog warned first. Nobody knows, so all these "maybe's" really aren't appropriate.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> As Eleanor Roosevelt famously said "no one can make you feel inadequate without your consent" and you do not have mine. ROFLMAO
> 
> As I am actually a H & S professional there is really not much point in trying to quote stats to me about the relative dangers of trampolines or any other piece of equipment. I deal with the subject on a daily basis...............................


I thought she famously said "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent".

I agree that there is not much point in trying to quote stats of any type to you, but probably not for the same reason you think so.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

caju said:


> Surely it's implicit that the dog was out of control when he bit the child? The alternative is that he was under control and bit a child, in which case it was murder.


Murder? Are you serious?

A dog does not have to be out of control to bite. He could be in pain, stressed, cornered or extremely anxious.

However, if this particular dog has commited murder, I hope he is at least given a fair trial and offered the services of a competent lawyer, even if he can't afford to appoint one for himself.


----------



## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

lostbear said:


> Well if you can't control yourself, there's no way you should be in charge of a dog, or giving advice to other people about what they should and shouldn't be doing. You may consider yourself superior - and perhaps you "can't control" your opinion - you can control being snotty, though.


Personally, I have never seen someone so in control...AND so willing to offer sensible advice to others less able/experienced. Unfortunately common sense is not very "common" on this forum or elsewhere


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

CheddarS said:


> Personally, I have never seen someone so in control...AND so willing to offer sensible advice to others less able/experienced. Unfortunately common sense is not very "common" on this forum or elsewhere


*The Death Of Common Sense*
12-13-10
Obituary
Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.
He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:
- Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
- Why the early bird gets the worm; 
- Life isn't always fair; and
- Maybe it was my fault..
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition. 
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. 
It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. 
Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. 
Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.
Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement. 
Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son, Reason. 
He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers:
I Know My Rights 
I Want It Now 
Someone Else Is To Blame 
I'm A Victim
Not many attended his funeral because 
so few realized he was gone..
If you still remember him, pass this on. 
If not, join the majority and do nothing.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lostbear said:


> Well if you can't control yourself, there's no way you should be in charge of a dog, or giving advice to other people about what they should and shouldn't be doing. You may consider yourself superior - and perhaps you "can't control" your opinion - you can control being snotty, though.


Fortunately there is no law about people being "dangerously out of control" per se, but I am sure you could start a petition for one............... 

If you find me so snotty I wonder why you bother responding to my posts................................


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lostbear said:


> I thought she famously said "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent".
> 
> I agree that there is not much point in trying to quote stats of any type to you, but probably not for the same reason you think so.


I think you will find that inadequate is a synonym for inferior (a synonym is a word that is interchangeable with another, like "starve" and "fast" 

I am so glad you agree with me, I can now sleep at night...................................... ROFLMAO


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Yeah, I grew up riding horses and live every day with the permanent injuries from that. We all choose our poison. I won't let my kids ride ATVs, but I'm okay with them bouncing on a trampoline with sensible precautions in place.


Me too, I still have back problems to this day from falling off a horse and sustaining a compressed fractured vertebra. Still got back on a horse as soon as I was allowed to (possibly a bit before then if I'm honest).



Blitz said:


> Of course they would be, a dog is not allowed to bite humans because the majority of the population actually thinks humans more important than animals.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I think you will find a human is not allowed to kick a dog half to death either so if a dog bit a child who had kicked it half to death (note I said bit not kill) I do not believe the dog would be ordered to be destroyed and the owners fined unless you have a link to prove otherwise of course.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

CheddarS said:


> Personally, I have never seen someone so in control...AND so willing to offer sensible advice to others less able/experienced. Unfortunately common sense is not very "common" on this forum or elsewhere


I don't complain about the advice - I just say that it could be delivered in a pleasanter manner. Courtesy costs nothing and makes a huge difference.


----------



## caju (Jan 3, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Wow, not even manslaughter but actual murder? There is another leap into legal jurisprudence history.............................





Sweety said:


> Murder? Are you serious?
> 
> A dog does not have to be out of control to bite. He could be in pain, stressed, cornered or extremely anxious.
> 
> However, if this particular dog has commited murder, I hope he is at least given a fair trial and offered the services of a competent lawyer, even if he can't afford to appoint one for himself.


I meant murder by the owners 

Since if the dog was fully under control, setting it upon that child would have been a deliberate act.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I think you will find that inadequate is a synonym for inferior (a synonym is a word that is interchangeable with another, like "starve" and "fast"
> 
> I am so glad you agree with me, I can now sleep at night...................................... ROFLMAO


"Inadequate" is NOT a synonym for "inferior" - and even if it were, you had placed this part of your comment in quotation marks - surely suggesting that it is - how can I put it so that you will understand? - ah, yes - a quotation. If you are going to quote someone, then you should quote them accurately or make it clear that you are unsure of the correct words.

Please do sleep at night - I hate to think that you lie awake worrying that we won't be in concord.

And treat yourself to another acronym - "ROFLMAO" is getting tedious.


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

caju said:


> I meant murder by the owners
> 
> Since if the dog was fully under control, setting it upon that child would have been a deliberate act.


What if the command had come from the phone ? Have you not seen that episode of Columbo ?


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't know anything. I offered as a possible reason that the dog was let out of the house and got to bite a child, the fact that trampolines are risky and maybe the parents/owners were supervising the kids on the trampoline and didn't see the dog until it was too late. The trampoline could, imo, be a reasonable excuse/reason that the dog was out of control. It's the wild card, the something different from other situations, the something to consider, the maybe it's not the owner's fault the dog was out of control. 

I would say that a loose dog who bit a child was out of control, unless he was under control, in which case he's doing as he's told. If someone told him to bite the 4 year old, throw the book at them. My posts were to explain why I might consider a dog to be out of control, or uncontrolled by his owners, but still not necessarily be blaming anyone, or casting aspersions. From the article, the dog was shut in the house and one of the children let him out. One can surmise from this that no-one was poking fingers through a crate, the dog wasn't on a lead and the dog wasn't under control surely? Or am I being obtuse?


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lostbear said:


> "Inadequate" is NOT a synonym for "inferior" - and even if it were, you had placed this part of your comment in quotation marks - surely suggesting that it is - how can I put it so that you will understand? - ah, yes - a quotation. If you are going to quote someone, then you should quote them accurately or make it clear that you are unsure of the correct words.
> 
> Please do sleep at night - I hate to think that you lie awake worrying that we won't be in concord.
> 
> And treat yourself to another acronym - "ROFLMAO" is getting tedious.


Can't be that tedious luvvie as you are still magnetised to my posts and feel the urge to keep responding and so I must be incredibly fascinating.................. ROFLMAO

I must alert all the thesaurus editors to their error and refer them to you for to apprise them of their errors in including inferior under inadequate and vice versa.

ROFLMAO even more.....................................


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

lostbear said:


> "Inadequate" is NOT a synonym for "inferior" - and even if it were, you had placed this part of your comment in quotation marks - surely suggesting that it is - how can I put it so that you will understand? - ah, yes - a quotation. If you are going to quote someone, then you should quote them accurately or make it clear that you are unsure of the correct words.
> 
> Please do sleep at night - I hate to think that you lie awake worrying that we won't be in concord.
> 
> And treat yourself to another acronym - "ROFLMAO" is getting tedious.


I think you two do this deliberately to just get a rise out of each other.So there.........


----------



## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

lostbear said:


> I don't complain about the advice - I just say that it could be delivered in a pleasanter manner. Courtesy costs nothing and makes a huge difference.


Different people have different styles. Think about intent rather than style.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Nobody has 


Rott lover said:


> I think you two do this deliberately to just get a rise out of each other.So there.........


Well it has kept me amused for ages whilst I complete end of month figures.......................


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I am the eternal optimist - who knows, one day you may wake up to what an unpleasant piece of work you are.


And if you were less snotty, people would be more likely to take notice of what is sometimes good advice. I assume that you ARE trying to help people.



Or are you just showing off like a spoiled brat at his sister's birthday party?


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Well it has kept me amused for ages whilst I complete end of month figures.......................


Yep, your posting recently has definitely made your head swell in the last month, HTH...


----------



## Rott lover (Jan 2, 2015)

It has kept me mildly amused since it started lol.I still remember the many times we have gone back and forth.I think a quote along the lines of how long does one chase a pig in the mud yard before one realizes that the pig is enjoying it.Now just realize i didn't put quote marks around it since i actually don't remember the quote.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Another child hurt by a dog. Doesn't really matter about the details in this thread, I hope we can all wish the child the best and hope for a speedy recovery, both physical and mentally if possible. 

We can also wish for actual details and meaningful discussions about cause and effects to try to avoid possible future preventable incidents. As is normally the case though, blame will simply be placed and the incident and potential lessons forgotten by most.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Can't be that tedious luvvie as you are still magnetised to my posts and feel the urge to keep responding and so I must be incredibly fascinating.................. ROFLMAO
> 
> I must alert all the thesaurus editors to their error and refer them to you for to apprise them of their errors in including inferior under inadequate and vice versa.
> 
> ROFLMAO even more.....................................


Fascinating in the same way that a dreadful accident draws the eye

Which thesaurus editors are those? The ones who have got it wrong?

The only tedious thing about you is your ROFLMAO - the rest of you is just obnoxious.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lostbear said:


> I am the eternal optimist - who knows, one day you may wake up to what an unpleasant piece of work you are.
> 
> And if you were less snotty, people would be more likely to take notice of what is sometimes good advice. I assume that you ARE trying to help people.
> 
> Or are you just showing off like a spoiled brat at his sister's birthday party?


Remember there is a difference between opinion and fact and also an informed opinion and an uninformed opinion.

I really cannot understand why you keep responding to my posts if I am, in your opinion, such an unpleasant piece of work.

I had not realised that you are the spokesperson of the forum and that you knew exactly how much notice others took of my advice.

You can assume anything you like............................ as for showing off, what precisely am I showing off pray tell?


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lostbear said:


> Fascinating in the same way that a dreadful accident draws the eye
> 
> Which thesaurus editors are those? The ones who have got it wrong?
> 
> The only tedious thing about you is your ROFLMAO - the rest of you is just obnoxious.


Well you obviously are attracted to tedium and obnoxiousness, perhaps because they are so familiar to you?


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I just keep repeating myself, I don't know why. For some reason people are reading into my post that I unfairly blame the parents/owners of the dog unequivocally without evidence, rhyme, or reason, because I agreed that the dog was uncontrolled in this instance given the description in the article, even though I gave a reason that a dog might be out of control if I was the owner/parent in the same situation. The moral of the tale is, lock your dog out of the way where your kids can't let him out if you want to be sure. For all we know, the 4 year old fell off the trampoline and landed on the dog thus proving that trampolines, children and dogs are as dangerous as each other.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Elles said:


> I just keep repeating myself, I don't know why. For some reason people are reading into my post that I unfairly blame the parents/owners of the dog unequivocally without evidence, rhyme, or reason, because I agreed that the dog was uncontrolled in this instance given the description in the article, even though I gave a reason that a dog might be out of control if I was the owner/parent in the same situation. The moral of the tale is, lock your dog out of the way where your kids can't let him out if you want to be sure. For all we know, the 4 year old fell off the trampoline and landed on the dog thus proving that trampolines, children and dogs are as dangerous as each other.


Fraid not, correlation does not equal causation as they say in the trade..................


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Anecdotal is still evidence.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Goblin said:


> We can also wish for actual details and meaningful discussions about cause and effects to try to avoid possible future preventable incidents. As is normally the case though, blame will simply be placed and the incident and potential lessons forgotten by most.


That's what upsets me the most... There is so much opportunity in these situations to learn valuable information about dogs and behaviors. But rarely does anyone think to do a full behavioral history on the dog or assess the dog properly in the present.

Without educated insights in to these incidents we're back at "don't leave dogs and kids unsupervised" and "control your dog" suggestions, neither of which are very clear, doable, or helpful really.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Elles said:


> Anecdotal is still evidence.


Not in science it's not. 
Anecdote =/= data.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> That's what upsets me the most... There is so much opportunity in these situations to learn valuable information about dogs and behaviors. But rarely does anyone think to do a full behavioral history on the dog or assess the dog properly in the present.
> 
> Without educated insights in to these incidents we're back at "don't leave dogs and kids unsupervised" and "control your dog" suggestions, neither of which are very clear, doable, or helpful really.


Correct, unfortunately the dogs are put down before there is a full investigation so that we might use this to inform our approach going forward.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Elles said:


> For all we know, the 4 year old fell off the trampoline and landed on the dog thus proving that trampolines, children and dogs are as dangerous as each other.


Okay, but that still leaves all the dogs who get fallen on who don't end up biting. Wouldn't it be useful to examine each case individually and try to start deciphering what makes this dog bite and this one not?
When my kids were toddlers, my old grumpy, arthritic mutt dog was sound asleep at the foot of the stairs. One of the kids (toddler) fell down the stairs and landed on the dog. The dog leaped up and roared at the child open-mouthed. Scared the daylights out of the kid, but never put a tooth on him. 
So let's take your theory (I know you're not saying it's what happened, but let's say for argument that it was). Why not do a behavior assessment on the dog who bit, and compare him to dogs who have had similar situations and didn't bite. Do a behavior history on the dogs as well, glean information from that.
Saying "oh, well, dogs and trampolines can both be dangerous" seems too shallow of an answer. There is so much more to learn from this.

FWIW, the child who tumbled down the stairs was supervised, I watched the whole thing unfold. Supervision isn't always all it's cracked up to be 



Elles said:


> The moral of the tale is, lock your dog out of the way where your kids can't let him out if you want to be sure.


Is it? What if I don't want to live that way with a dog? What if the dog doesn't want to live that way, the kids....


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Correct, unfortunately the dogs are put down before there is a full investigation so that we might use this to inform our approach going forward.


I was wondering if it was the same in the UK... Unfortunately this is usually the norm in the US as well, or in some cases the dog is just handed back to the owners with restrictions, and again, no behavioral insights. It's definitely frustrating....


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Out of interest, who would the authorities give the dog to for scientific research if it was the case that he could be studied, who would pay for it and who would benefit from it?


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

If only we, as humans, could acknowledge that we don't really know how dogs think.

We like to imagine we do, but we don't. 

Some of us try to get into their minds, see things from their viewpoint, but, at the end of the day, we're not dogs.

Who knows why some dogs bite? It can be obvious, in certain situations, but, when a previously placid, loving family dog bites a child 'out of the blue', everyone begins guessing what went wrong.

We love them and probably devote too much of our lives to them. We do our best to understand them, gain their trust and build a bond with them but, at the end of it all, they're animals and will often respond to instinct, not reason.

We can reason ........ why did he do that? We don't know why he did that.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Elles said:


> Out of interest, who would the authorities give the dog to for scientific research if it was the case that he could be studied, who would pay for it and who would benefit from it?


IDK about the UK, but here we have many universities that are equipped to evaluate dogs like this and could do a thorough home/owner eval over the phone. It's not that the dog would be "studied", but rather evaluated behaviorally. There is no "pay", the university would take on the cost of upkeep of the dog. 
As for who it would benefit, why all of us of course. Anyone who loves and lives with dogs can benefit from more information about them. We also use this sort of information to study behavior in other animals including humans. 
Information is always a good thing.


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I seriously have to wonder about the age of some of the posters on this forum sometimes.......


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

"The moral of the tale is, lock your dog out of the way where your kids can't let him out if you want to be sure.
Is it? What if I don’t want to live that way with a dog? What if the dog doesn’t want to live that way, the kids...."

To be even more sure, don't get a dog. 

I'd guess I know what many people would be thinking, but wouldn't say. They're probably assuming that the dog was locked away because he was trained/cared for/bred badly and dangerous and one of those type of dogs don't you know and the kids were left to their own devices whilst the owners were smoking, drinking Special Brew and watching tv. Many people will draw this conclusion and move on to the next case. You can do as much research as you like, they wouldn't be interested in it and dogs will still bite people.  It always brings to my mind first and foremost tbh that there are so many dogs, yet so few dog bites. Amazing isn't it.

Where would the dog go? The uni would phone the owners and talk to them, then take the dog to the university? Sorry, I'm a bit confused.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Oh and where would they get the dogs who were fallen on, but didn't bite? I can't see many owners wanting to give them up to a university for study. Or are you asking for people with dogs who don't bite when squashed, or otherwise, to invite scientists into their homes, or take them to assessment centres, if they set them up, or would they just use their own dogs? Just wondering about the logistics of this study.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Elles said:


> Sorry, I'm a bit confused.


Yeah, you and me both...
What are you trying to say about the drinking and smoking and watching TV? I'm not following you there...

As for how the university studies go, it just depends on the study. A case like this likely goes to court, in the ruling, the judge may allow for a university who steps up to take the dog to do so. No, you don't take the dogs who don't bite away from homes, you do those evaluations "in the field" if you will. 
These behaviorists are often veterinarians as well with actual practices related to the university, and they have regular clients. They can simply interview client dogs.
Tuffts is doing a bloat study right now and great dane owners throughout the country have been contacted and asked to submit DNA and a questionnaire about the dog's diet, lifestyle, age, and incidents of bloat. 
Same idea.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Ah ok.



ouesi said:


> What are you trying to say about the drinking and smoking and watching TV? I'm not following you there...


I'm describing a stereotype. The type of dog that bites will be one of those dangerous types, you know, the pitbull type of things. It will have been badly bred, badly fed and never taken out, at the very least. The owners will be chavs, or at least people who sit around on benefits watching tv, smoking cigarettes and drinking Special Brew (strong lager beer) or possibly Cider, while the kids run riot. As none of this applies to me, my dog will never bite. Move along, nothing more to see.

Research? What research? Pats Fluffy Lulubelle on the head, whilst Fluffy Lulubelle rolls her eyes, tucks her tail and flattens her ears.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Elles said:


> Ah ok.
> 
> I'm describing a stereotype. The type of dog that bites will be one of those dangerous types, you know, the pitbull type of things. It will have been badly bred, badly fed and never taken out, at the very least. The owners will be chavs, or at least people who sit around on benefits watching tv, smoking cigarettes and drinking Special Brew (strong lager beer) or possibly Cider, while the kids run riot. As none of this applies to me, my dog will never bite. Move along, nothing more to see.
> 
> Research? What research? Pats Fluffy Lulubelle on the head, whilst Fluffy Lulubelle rolls her eyes, tucks her tail and flattens her ears.


Ah gotcha. But I still don't understand what the stereotype has to do with the conversation. Sorry, feeling a bit dim here!


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The point in keeping the dogs alive long enough to research them, who will pay for it and who will benefit. Not the people who need to probably, because they will still think it's only pitbulls in bad circumstances and carry on ignoring their own dogs' signals.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I suppose what I'm saying is, if the taxpayer is going to pay for these studies of dogs that have bitten, considering we're supposed to be in a recession and worrying about deficits, taking money away from the needy and disabled, will it really be worth it, or just satisfying curiosity? Not trying to be mean, but atm, can we afford to do it, or is it a case of we can't afford not to? And will it save dogs from being destroyed and children from being bitten?


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

There are several reputable behaviourists who have to assess dogs involved in such cases in the UK and many of them have said time and time again that dogs that are euthanised immediately mean that they miss the opportunity to determine the causes of the incident(s). That is what accident investigations are all about to determine not just the immediate causes but the underlying ones so that the appropriate corrective and preventive action can be taken to minimise recurrence. Failure to investigate and determine the causes means we are less informed about how to control the problems.

Such behaviourists are professionals, not given to sitting around the table and stereotyping either dogs or owners and would not recognise the assumptions made about patting the dog.............................


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Elles said:


> I suppose what I'm saying is, if the taxpayer is going to pay for these studies of dogs that have bitten, considering we're supposed to be in a recession and worrying about deficits, taking money away from the needy and disabled, will it really be worth it, or just satisfying curiosity? Not trying to be mean, but atm, can we afford to do it, or is it a case of we can't afford not to? And will it save dogs from being destroyed and children from being bitten?


The taxpayer doesn't pay for these sorts of assessments. 
They're not about satisfying curiosity, it's adding information to the database and expanding our knowledge. And yes, information will save children from being bitten.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

So at the moment the dog is taken away and destroyed after a short assessment, if at all? How would you go about changing that? Would you need public support, a change in legal procedure? What would need to change and how could that be brought about? You would be trying to persuade people that a dog who has bitten a child is worth assessing, even though he's not undergoing behavioural modification that may save his life and rehome him, nothing to benefit the actual dog, or child/person involved. Dogs who have never harmed anything, or anyone are pts because of how they look at the moment, even after more than a year of assessment. How could people (and authorities) be persuaded that it's worth working with a dog who has bitten in order to learn from him?

I don't know. To me it sounds as though the suggestion is that the dog is taken in for research and assessment, whatever that entails and I'm not sure what that would be and then put down. Their owners worked with to find out where they went wrong, if at all. It doesn't sound very appealing?

Far simpler to just put the dog to sleep and prosecute the owners isn't it.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

ouesi said:


> That's what upsets me the most... There is so much opportunity in these situations to learn valuable information about dogs and behaviors. But rarely does anyone think to do a full behavioral history on the dog or assess the dog properly in the present.
> 
> Without educated insights in to these incidents we're back at "don't leave dogs and kids unsupervised" and "control your dog" suggestions, neither of which are very clear, doable, or helpful really.


I actually attended a seminar by a leading veterinary behaviourist who is often called as an expert witness for legal cases. She assesses dogs both in their own homes and those that are in police custody.
She said that her massive frustration is that the police and other forces, frequently rapidly euthanise the dog and immediately perform a post-mortem, which in her experience, in most cases does little to explain WHY it all happened as it did. As she put it, it's very hard to work out why it all happened, if all she is presented with is pieces of the dog (sorry everyone, I know that is a horrible thought :/).

She is not against the euthanasia side, where this is appropriate; though of course she disputes it in cases where it is not warranted. Regardless, of whether euthanasia should be the final outcome, she says that a thorough behavioural assessment (with all safety precautions) is needed so that we can learn from these incidents. She says we are losing so much data that could used by way of prevention/awareness, or a database to lead to a report etc.

She described a case, that she was called in for, in which a visitor was supposedly bitten and had a laceration on their face. She discovered after thorough investigation and a medical report that this laceration was actually inflicted by a dew claw (which could probably have done with being trimmed with more regularity); someone had been kneeling facing the dog, teasing it considerably and all the dog did was jump up and attempt to lick (by way of appeasement) this person. The victim (in confusion) and others (in assumption), immediately deemed that the dog had bitten. The dog was not euthanised, as it was in fact, behaviourally a very sound dog.

This veterinary behaviourist/expert witness is fighting an ongoing battle with other departments/ forces to ensure that things are done properly. She is involved with several campaigns and a study with leading academic researchers, who are trying to change the way that things are conducted.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

caju said:


> I meant murder by the owners
> 
> Since if the dog was fully under control, setting it upon that child would have been a deliberate act.


The child is alive, and in hospital receiving treatment for lacerations to his head and ear. These lacerations were apparently inflicted by the dog, which was apparently let out by another child. Apparently there was a third child present.

That is all we know. 
You will note there many "apparently"s in the above. Assumptions about the owners', children's, dog's intentions aren't helpful.

For all you know, the owner is racked with guilt, worry, horror and is distraught about the whole thing (whatever the circumstances that led up to the incident). Imagine that this is the case, how do you think they would feel if they read your comment about "murder".

Compassion to all involved (child, owner, other children, dog etc) is the only humane approach in my opinion.

We literally know nothing about this case and besides, let's leave it to the professionals to assess and conduct.

Again, I hope the little boy recovers quickly, without lasting effects.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I have been to several seminars and conferences (including one where I spoke myself) in the UK regarding dog bites and Kendal and Jim Crosby to name but two are passionate about the need to study the dogs involved in fatalities in particular to see if we can obtain more information to protect future potential victims, be they human or canine. Easy to sit in the comfort of our own chairs and homes far divorced from the misery which is the reality behind the headlines.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Well you obviously are attracted to tedium and obnoxiousness, perhaps because they are so familiar to you?


Only since I started reading your posts.

And mine seem to hold a similar fascination for you.

I wonder which one of us is the Evil Twin?


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> I just keep repeating myself, I don't know why. For some reason people are reading into my post that I unfairly blame the parents/owners of the dog unequivocally without evidence, rhyme, or reason, because I agreed that the dog was uncontrolled in this instance given the description in the article, even though I gave a reason that a dog might be out of control if I was the owner/parent in the same situation. The moral of the tale is, lock your dog out of the way where your kids can't let him out if you want to be sure. For all we know, the 4 year old fell off the trampoline and landed on the dog thus proving that trampolines, children and dogs are as dangerous as each other.





lemmsy said:


> The child is alive, and in hospital receiving treatment for lacerations to his head and ear. These lacerations were apparently inflicted by the dog, which was apparently let out by another child. Apparently there was a third child present.
> 
> That is all we know.
> You will note there many "apparently"s in the above. Assumptions about the owners', children's, dog's intentions aren't helpful.
> ...


Thank you for getting us back on track.

You are right - there are many factors involved, and if a child fell on a dog, or in front of a dog, startling it - or if a dog got over-excited, then there is no doubt it might bite. I daresay the truth will come out. I hope the dog doesn't have to be destroyed - i imagine that will depend on the severity and circumstances of the injury, or whether the owner takes it on themselves to part with the dog anyway.

Very sad all round.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Rott lover said:


> It has kept me mildly amused since it started lol.I still remember the many times we have gone back and forth.I think a quote along the lines of how long does one chase a pig in the mud yard before one realizes that the pig is enjoying it.Now just realize i didn't put quote marks around it since i actually don't remember the quote.


You are a sane voice in an insane world (was going to put a big grin here, but realised that the emoticons have vanished - along with the font and type variations - could this be the end of civilisation as e know it?)


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lostbear said:


> Only since I started reading your posts.
> 
> And mine seem to hold a similar fascination for you.
> 
> I wonder which one of us is the Evil Twin?


The difference between us is that, unlike you, I have not resorted to hurling personal insults

Thus we cannot be twins.....................


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> The difference between us is that, unlike you, I have not resorted to hurling personal insults
> 
> Thus we cannot be twins.....................


You don't need to hurl them - you are one!


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Thus we cannot be twins.....................


You're both bears. Doesn't that count for something ?


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

How can we feel compassion for all involved? a similar thread about the terrier that killed a young baby a few weeks back was quite clearly NOT in favour of investigating the cause of the attack and/or compassionate for the dog. In fact I was told I had no compassion for the baby or family because I also felt sadness for the dog. Funny to see the differing opinions this time around......


----------



## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Everything's ok now. SmokeyBear and LostBear have had a phone call to clear the air....


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> I have been to several seminars and conferences (including one where I spoke myself) in the UK regarding dog bites and Kendal and Jim Crosby to name but two are passionate about the need to study the dogs involved in fatalities in particular to see if we can obtain more information to protect future potential victims, be they human or canine. Easy to sit in the comfort of our own chairs and homes far divorced from the misery which is the reality behind the headlines.


I'm a big fan of Kendal.

My favourite quote from her, on the subject of dogs having 'minds of their own' and 'not listening' to their owners was:

"Well, who's minds are they supposed to have?! The cat's?!"

Entertaining speaker, but also a very knowledgeable, thorough, compassionate person who cares.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Dogloverlou said:


> How can we feel compassion for all involved? a similar thread about the terrier that killed a young baby a few weeks back was quite clearly NOT in favour of investigating the cause of the attack.


Well... it should have been. With fatalities this is particularly important.

I don't remember the thread/case... do you have a link?


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> How can we feel compassion for all involved? a similar thread about the terrier that killed a young baby a few weeks back was quite clearly NOT in favour of investigating the cause of the attack and/or compassionate for the dog. In fact I was told I had no compassion for the baby or family because I also felt sadness for the dog. Funny to see the differing opinions this time around......


I don't think anyone was against investigating the cause, I think it was more of the fact some people came over as having more concern about the dog, the thread was very much the same in the start, the parents were blamed for the death of the child because of their "neglect" that was the huge difference in this thread in that a new born baby died in the other thread, and people were more interested in again blaming the parents and sad the dog had died, and again very little compassion was shown for any one involved other than the dog, that's why that thread went down a different track..

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/baby-killed-by-terrier.401820/


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

diefenbaker said:


> Everything's ok now. SmokeyBear and LostBear have had a phone call to clear the air....


CLASS!


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Well for me personally this thread has been quite enlightening. 

I know that if a group of young children were playing on a trampoline in my garden, Elles wouldn't be locked away anyway unless one of the kids were scared of dogs, so she'd be running around with them. I'd be so concerned about the trampoline, I doubt I'd even give her a second glance. If something happened, people would be quite justified in saying she was out of control, or uncontrolled, it would be quite true.

As it happens, my kids are all grown and I don't have a trampoline, so that particular scenario is as unlikely as me winning the lottery that I don't do. 

What does happen though, is, there are parents who bring their children to the yard. The kids make a bee-line for Elles and go off with her to play with her in the field by the stables. Throw her ball, get her doing her tricks, run around with her, that kind of thing. No-one's watching them, no-one related to me is there. The parents are glad their kids are being occupied while they do their horse, instead of standing around bored, kicking their heels. I'd say there's a billion to one chance that she'd ever bite any of them. I know the kids, they're used to being around animals and I know my dog adores them and is highly unlikely to do anything if they did tread on her, or fall over her. However, if there were to be an accident and one of the kids in their hurt state blamed Elles, I couldn't say either way. I'm not there. If she caught one with a tooth and they bled to death, or she scratched them and they thought it was a bite, or even if she didn't and they just thought she did, I couldn't say any different. In this day and age, with the DDA and no win, no fee lawyers waiting in the wings, it's not worth the risk. The risk to my dog. I'm going to be more vigilant, they'll have to play in sight of a trustworthy, responsible adult.


----------



## Guest (Aug 5, 2015)

Elles said:


> Far simpler to just put the dog to sleep and prosecute the owners isn't it.


Are you saying this seriously or sarcastically?

If you're serious, sure... I guess so, it might be "easier" to just PTS the dog and prosecute the owners, but what exactly does that accomplish?
What about the example @lemmsy gave where upon further investigation it was found that the dog did not bite at all but caught the delicate face skin with a dew claw?
One time one of my dogs caught my hand with the metal S piece that holds her rabies tag to her collar. Sliced my hand right up. I know what dog bites feel like and look like and this cut sure didn't feel or look like one. So I was trying to figure out what on her was so sharp when I saw that where the metal had been cut it had left a very sharp edge - sharp enough to really slice in to my hand. 
What if I had just assumed? What if that had been someone else who had gotten cut by her collar?

These sort of freak things do happen, rare, sure, but they happen.
And frankly as rare as serious dog bite incidents are, it seems to me that thoroughly investigating them is not that big of a hardship on anyone. Considering the information we can glean from these cases, not doing a proper investigation seems like a total waste.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Neither. Sadly. Sadly it is simpler for the authorities to put the dogs to sleep and prosecute the owners. That's partly why they ban breeds of dogs, it's simpler to do than actually assessing anything. They have to keep people happy, people think pitbulls are dangerous, so they banned pitbulls. Simples.

(not that everyone thinks pitbulls are dangerous of course)

Of course I'd rather they didn't, I'd much rather they held a full investigation, but as they don't, see my last post. I don't know how to change things, I thought it was worth discussing though. I was interested in what an assessment would involve, who'd pay, who'd benefit, where the dogs would go and how to get other people interested in it, because if I don't know, I expect other people don't either.


----------



## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

lemmsy said:


> I actually attended a seminar by a leading veterinary behaviourist who is often called as an expert witness for legal cases. She assesses dogs both in their own homes and those that are in police custody.
> She said that her massive frustration is that the police and other forces, frequently rapidly euthanise the dog and immediately perform a post-mortem, which in her experience, in most cases does little to explain WHY it all happened as it did. As she put it, it's very hard to work out why it all happened, if all she is presented with is pieces of the dog (sorry everyone, I know that is a horrible thought :/).
> 
> She is not against the euthanasia side, where this is appropriate; though of course she disputes it in cases where it is not warranted. Regardless, of whether euthanasia should be the final outcome, she says that a thorough behavioural assessment (with all safety precautions) is needed so that we can learn from these incidents. She says we are losing so much data that could used by way of prevention/awareness, or a database to lead to a report etc.
> ...


It's very easy to see an injury and immediately assume dog bite. I've made this mistake twice with my own dogs, first one was introducing a puppy to my resident bitch, bit of warning as puppy told not to play so rough, then all seemed ok. Next morning puppy had a swollen face, I kicked myself for trusting my bitch and rushed puppy to the vet who found - a grass seed completely embedded on the inside of the cheek. I've also had 2 of my boys squabble over a titbit I tossed carelessly, later on noticed a cut very low down on GSD's front leg, which I wrongly put down to my cocker boy being food aggressive and actually biting, even though he had never done so before - then I thought it looked a bit too clean, and slightly curved, turns out my mum had left some garden loppers lying around on a path to pick up later. If a dog's own owner can wrongly blame them (and mistrust their own judgement to think something unlikely has actually occurred) then of course something that happens in a flash won't be interpreted correctly. Time has to be taken to look at all explanations before reaching judgement.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Catharinem said:


> It's very easy to see an injury and immediately assume dog bite


Exactly.  Until this thread, it's not something that even occurred to me.


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Me too and my poor sister still has the scar where I bit her arm


Not good when you see it when you are older is it? My sister still has a scar on her forehead where I threw a remote control at her head 

I was born in the 80's and I was always off with friends over the back fields all day, walking strangers dogs and our own, stroking the horses and cows, climbing trees. I had a few accidents yup. I think the world now is so scared and everyone is wrapped in cotton wool 

Our lil un used to be really tough since she was tiny, fall over, just get back up and run off. Since she started school, they have turned her into a pansy!! Every little thing now is 'Mum, I need an ice pack' 'I think I need the hospital' 
I do leave her alone with Muttly now (as in she's outside with him and I'm inside, I just have the odd glance and I can hear them or check if I can't hear them!), but not when we first had him as she needed training how to treat a dog.

I'll sound about 90 when I say this, but I wish it was still like the old days lol


----------



## Get Bunny Box (Apr 17, 2015)

It happens all too often nowadays...


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Get Bunny Box said:


> It happens all too often nowadays...


and you think it didn't before?


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

You just hear it about now because of the creation of the internet.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It doesn't happen very often, otherwise it wouldn't make the Mail, it would hardly be news. Horses injure people all the time, treading on them, knocking them over, kicking them, biting them, it's so common it doesn't even make the horsey news, let along the normal news. Considering how many dogs there are, bites are pretty uncommon and most dogs go their whole lives without biting anyone, other than with sharp needle puppy teeth.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> It doesn't happen very often, otherwise it wouldn't make the Mail, it would hardly be news. Horses injure people all the time, treading on them, knocking them over, kicking them, biting them, it's so common it doesn't even make the horsey news, let along the normal news. Considering how many dogs there are, bites are pretty uncommon and most dogs go their whole lives without biting anyone, other than with sharp needle puppy teeth.


Bites and accidents with dogs have been going on since day dot, I think people think it's more common or happening more than it did is because the press jump all over it. It annoys me a lot, because it's not just something that's started happening, difference is chances are years ago you'd have got a clip round the ear for annoying the dog.

I really don't know what's going on these days though, I got knocked down and I mean knocked down by a horse when I was about 9 ( that age as also the age I swallowed lead paint, and rode horses bare back, I also fell through a roof, and ran in to the tree when the OES was chasing me 9 wad not a good year for me  ) I still have quite a visible scare on my arm where the horse got me, luckily the horse was only trotting and purposely clipped me on the way past, same horse bit my chest on the way past his stable :Arghh my parents never once thought about having the OES or horse PTS the press weren't interested.. Again walked every man and his dogs dog, and survived..


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

This is what confuses me to @Elles, horses can bite and kick etc, but a dog does so and gets PTS.
I was chucked off a horse frontwards and backwards at a riding school (why they kept giving me the most lively fiesty horse when I was 9 years old, ill never know) I remember bleeding and crying etc, getting straight back on it still bleeding lol. (that was more important than cleaning my hands up and checking the wounds apparently).

The world needs to toughen back up!!! Respect animals, give them space a dog is not a child's toy!!!!, if you don't and they bite, lesson learned. (of course I'm not talking babies etc being mauled).


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The news tends to only mention occasions where the dog seriously injured, or killed someone, which is really rare. I would have thought it's actually less common than it used to be, not more, if there's any difference at all. You can only get chucked off a horse if you're stupid enough to get on one, so the horse can't be blamed for that. 

If your own dog bites you, I don't think it gets pts. unless you die in the process. The law tends to get involved when you get bitten by someone else's dog, especially if you're seriously injured. You can't really give a 4 year old a clip round the ear, when he's practically had his head taken off by his friend's dog. 

I can see Ouesi's point about trying to find out why some dogs bite at the slightest provocation, which might just be a child enjoying themselves nowhere near the dog, but some dogs can get flattened and pulled around by an ill-behaved shrieking child and hardly turn a whisker, let alone a tooth, regardless of training. Isn't that why it's thought temperament is important when breeding?


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> The news tends to only mention occasions where the dog seriously injured, or killed someone, which is really rare. I would have thought it's actually less common than it used to be, not more, if there's any difference at all. You can only get chucked off a horse if you're stupid enough to get on one, so the horse can't be blamed for that.
> 
> If your own dog bites you, I don't think it gets pts. unless you die in the process. The law tends to get involved when you get bitten by someone else's dog, especially if you're seriously injured. You can't really give a 4 year old a clip round the ear, when he's practically had his head taken off by his friend's dog.
> 
> I can see Ouesi's point about trying to find out why some dogs bite at the slightest provocation, which might just be a child enjoying themselves nowhere near the dog, but some dogs can get flattened and pulled around by an ill-behaved shrieking child and hardly turn a whisker, let alone a tooth, regardless of training. Isn't that why it's thought temperament is important when breeding?


I googled dog bites, and most of the Press stories were one puncture where it looks like someone has pulled a dog off, they aren't acceptable never will be, but these would have happened daily previously and people wouldn't have got the media involved.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I agree, I don't think dogs bite more than they used to either. Dogs are pretty tolerant on the whole. Horses are expected to put up with a lot, it's hardly any surprise if they stand on people, bite them and knock them over. They don't get clicker trained and behaviourists, they get kicked and smacked and expected to put up with it.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> I agree, I don't think dogs bite more than they used to either. Dogs are pretty tolerant on the whole. Horses are expected to put up with a lot, it's hardly any surprise if they stand on people, bite them and knock them over. They don't get clicker trained and behaviourists, they get kicked and smacked and expected to put up with it.


That's my point don't think there are more, I just think we are hearing about them more  being bitten is an awful experience  I wouldn't be surprised that in the days of latch key dogs the bite numbers weren't higher, as a child coming on holiday back home to NI from Germany it was scary the amount of latch key dogs and they did scare the life out of me...


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Yup, there was probably more potential for injury when there were latch key dogs, but kids were probably more savvy and told not to go near them in those days too, because of it. Nowadays, many kids aren't taught how to behave around dogs, people are expected to keep them under control, on a lead and muzzled if they think they might bite. If it carries on, one day we'll all have to keep our dogs muzzled and leashed probably.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> . If it carries on, one day we'll all have to keep our dogs muzzled and leashed probably.


A lot of countries already have that law in place... Ireland has a restricted breed list that have to be muzzled and on a lead in public.


----------



## Guest (Aug 7, 2015)

Muttly said:


> This is what confuses me to @Elles, horses can bite and kick etc, but a dog does so and gets PTS.
> I was chucked off a horse frontwards and backwards at a riding school (why they kept giving me the most lively fiesty horse when I was 9 years old, ill never know) I remember bleeding and crying etc, getting straight back on it still bleeding lol. (that was more important than cleaning my hands up and checking the wounds apparently).
> 
> The world needs to toughen back up!!! Respect animals, give them space a dog is not a child's toy!!!!, if you don't they bite, lesson learned. (of course I'm not talking babies etc being mauled).


Dangerous horses get PTS too. Or glue factory. 
It's just our expectations for horse behavior are not the same as for dog behavior. Nor should they be. I'm not going to invite a horse to sleep in bed with my child, or live in the home with an infant. For a dog, these are normal, every day expectations.

Dogs don't get PTS for a nip or minor bite under duress. Any vet practice or groomers will show you their multiple scars, from dog bites, and they're not ending up in the news with armchair experts calling for the dog to be euthanized.

To me it boils down to better understanding our dogs and educating ourselves and our children on how to read our dogs and how to respectfully interact with them. But it's also about breeding solid temperaments and raising dogs who trust humans and aren't going to respond with aggression when something unexpected happens.

There are extremes on both ends, those who think any show of aggression is completely out of order and worthy of euthanasia, and then those who excuse all sorts of behaviors. I met a woman the other day who's dog regularly bites her in all sorts of "normal" situations, like clipping a leash on him. She chalks it up to him being "sensitive", and since he's tiny, she just deals with it. 
Neither extreme is helpful.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

ouesi said:


> It's just our expectations for horse behavior are not the same as for dog behavior.


Which is a shame. We might actually train them, instead of expecting them to bite, kick etc. and punishing them for it.


----------



## Guest (Aug 7, 2015)

Elles said:


> Which is a shame. We might actually train them, instead of expecting them to bite, kick etc. and punishing them for it.


Call me crazy, but I'm not going to try and potty train my horse so he can live in the house with me. I did have a horse who happily climbed up the porch steps and would look in the windows asking to come in, but he still wasn't invited 

Nothing wrong with expecting (and respecting) a horse as a prey animal who's going to behave differently than a dog, a companion animal that has evolved alongside man to be our companion.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think if a horse actually attacked someone with intent to do damage it probably would be shot. Problem is we can be incredibly badly injured by a horse that does not mean to hurt you. A few years ago I had one come over the top of me and I ended up with stitches in my head, very bad bruising on my back which incapacitated me for a while, and both knees injured, one of which ended up needing surgery. I am getting a bit old for it now but just have to put up with it if I want to own horses.

And Elles, I certainly do not expect my horses to bite or kick.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Lots of people don't have their dogs living in the house with them either.  People train their dogs to do all sorts of things that other people don't train their dogs to do, but the expectations of behaviour are the same. It's common to train dogs with clickers and treats, it's common to not train horses at all, but to punish them when they make a mistake. eg horse barges out of the gate or stable door, he might get a lunge whip in his face and no-one turn a hair. Dog dives out of the front door, he's trained to sit and wait, or kept behind a baby gate. We'd be horrified if someone grabbed him and smacked him for it. That's what I mean. People think that smacking a horse is training him, so they'll wait until he did something they don't want him to do and then smack him for it. We're mostly over that with dogs now.

I don't mean anyone specifically Blitz. Just generally. Plenty of horses attack people with intent, they get sold on as projects, or sent off for schooling, or people just pussy foot around them more often than pts I would think. I know someone now whose horse attacks her every time she goes in the field, so she gets other people to get him in and they use whips or throw things at him and corral him, leaving him with a head-collar and short rope on him. No-one suggests getting rid of him, he's good to ride and for leading they can carry a stick and put a chain over his nose. He rears and boxes at them when they're leading and the answer to that is to yank at him and shout a lot. 

This is what I'm getting at. Not training horses to live in the house. 

On saying that, most people would punish a horse if he kicked or bit them, it's normal and many people would punish a dog if he bit them too. The difference being that for dogs there are now more professionals who would teach people not to and how to modify an unwanted behaviour without physically punishing them. You can treat and train horses in a way that makes it unlikely they'll kick or bite, but it's best not to put yourself in their mouth or under their feet, so just as we're saying children should learn how to behave around dogs, if they're going to be with horses, it's probably best if they learn how to behave around horses too. 

I'm probably flogging a dead horse though, when it comes to horses I'm thought of as a bit weird. :Wacky


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> Lots of people don't have their dogs living in the house with them either.  People train their dogs to do all sorts of things that other people don't train their dogs to do, but the expectations of behaviour are the same. It's common to train dogs with clickers and treats, it's common to not train horses at all, but to punish them when they make a mistake. eg horse barges out of the gate or stable door, he might get a lunge whip in his face and no-one turn a hair. Dog dives out of the front door, he's trained to sit and wait, or kept behind a baby gate. We'd be horrified if someone grabbed him and smacked him for it. That's what I mean. People think that smacking a horse is training him, so they'll wait until he did something they don't want him to do and then smack him for it. We're mostly over that with dogs now.
> 
> I don't mean anyone specifically Blitz. Just generally. Plenty of horses attack people with intent, they get sold on as projects, or sent off for schooling, or people just pussy foot around them more often than pts I would think. I know someone now whose horse attacks her every time she goes in the field, so she gets other people to get him in and they use whips or throw things at him and corral him, leaving him with a head-collar and short rope on him. No-one suggests getting rid of him, he's good to ride and for leading they can carry a stick and put a chain over his nose. He rears and boxes at them when they're leading and the answer to that is to yank at him and shout a lot.
> 
> ...


Wish I could rep you for this ...


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Totally get you Elles.

There are Horse Behaviourists and trainers that do use methods other than punishment out there. Look at the Horse Whisperer blokie (can't remember his name), it's becoming more used now isn't it? I know my sister uses a lot of these methods with hers.

I guess the difference is also if a dog puts his paws on you, it won't hurt, but a horse does the same thing, you're screwed lol


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

There are a few who claim to.  There are a very,very few who actually do and they're usually thought of as weirdos by the masses. :Hilarious


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Elles said:


> There are a few who claim to.  There are a very,very few who actually do and they're usually thought of as weirdos by the masses. :Hilarious


What horse whispering?


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Elles said:


> Lots of people don't have their dogs living in the house with them either.  People train their dogs to do all sorts of things that other people don't train their dogs to do, but the expectations of behaviour are the same. It's common to train dogs with clickers and treats, it's common to not train horses at all, but to punish them when they make a mistake. eg horse barges out of the gate or stable door, he might get a lunge whip in his face and no-one turn a hair. Dog dives out of the front door, he's trained to sit and wait, or kept behind a baby gate. We'd be horrified if someone grabbed him and smacked him for it. That's what I mean. People think that smacking a horse is training him, so they'll wait until he did something they don't want him to do and then smack him for it. We're mostly over that with dogs now.
> 
> I don't mean anyone specifically Blitz. Just generally. Plenty of horses attack people with intent, they get sold on as projects, or sent off for schooling, or people just pussy foot around them more often than pts I would think. I know someone now whose horse attacks her every time she goes in the field, so she gets other people to get him in and they use whips or throw things at him and corral him, leaving him with a head-collar and short rope on him. No-one suggests getting rid of him, he's good to ride and for leading they can carry a stick and put a chain over his nose. He rears and boxes at them when they're leading and the answer to that is to yank at him and shout a lot.
> 
> ...


I was brought up to hit a horse if it misbehaved and I still will if I have to, but if you think of it hitting a horse with your hand is only a reminder not a punishment. Most people I know teach their horses to stand back at gates and stable doors and to stand still when told. I think horse handling is very variable. There are still those that use whip and force the issue, then there are those that insist on good behaviour but teach the horse what is wanted and there are others who will never tell their horse off and have a more and more ill mannered and dangerous horse as time goes on.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Blitz said:


> I was brought up to hit a horse if it misbehaved and I still will if I have to, but if you think of it hitting a horse with your hand is only a reminder not a punishment. Most people I know teach their horses to stand back at gates and stable doors and to stand still when told. I think horse handling is very variable. There are still those that use whip and force the issue, then there are those that insist on good behaviour but teach the horse what is wanted and there are others who will never tell their horse off and have a more and more ill mannered and dangerous horse as time goes on.


The horse decides what is punishing. Not you.

The term "telling them off" implies that they did something deliberately against your wishes. Perfect anthropomorphism.

The horse world still has a long way to go, till it rejects the use of equipment that relies heavily on negative reinforcement and positive punishment.

The chap, is a legend- he rides on a plain bridle, not a show jumping one that restricts their ability to lift their head and run flat out. He positively reinforces his horses.
Here he is winning the Puissance at Olympia in 2013:






"When I started with horses, people were just hard with them. 'This is the animal, it must listen, I must be the leader, it must follow what I say, the big man that dominates the horse'. Now it's totally different."

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/04/sport/carrot-man-equestrian/


----------



## Guest (Aug 7, 2015)

Elles said:


> There are a few who claim to.  There are a very,very few who actually do and they're usually thought of as weirdos by the masses. :Hilarious


Well I'm one of those weirdos who is all about clicker training horses. Best thing ever if you ask me. Clicker train a totally free shaped load up in to trailer, offer a hoof for the farrier, and the really talented folks out there who are doing things like clicking flying lead changes and piaff and all sorts of cool things...


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I will never understand why people seem to think its okay to hit any animal at all, and use the excuse of it's the way I was taught? Things move on and times change research goes one life evolves, and if people had one bloody ounce of sense and compassion they would move on too. Age or decade is not an excuse for abuse.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

No. Horse whispering is usually linked to old cowboys with ropes and natural that sort of thing. I'm talking about clicker and reward based training. Although it's not going to be exactly the same for horses and dogs, we ride horses, I do think we could move forward. Though this is now so far off topic, it's silly and I can't even remember how we got here. :Wideyed :Hilarious

I know what you mean Blitz, although I don't hit my horses or tell them off. People who don't want to tell their horses off, or hit them, often don't train them either and end up with horses who have no idea what to do walking all over them. It's a shame as it's not necessary. Although I do reward my horse during ridden work, I don't clicker train positions, or changes/piaffe etc. under saddle as I have other ideas on classically training. Think centaurs. 

The main problem I have, is that it's acceptable to physically punish horses at shows, kick them with heels and hit them with sticks to win something and children are taught to do it at hundreds of riding schools. That's what I'd like to see change, starting at grass roots level with kids. It used to be acceptable to yank on dogs wearing choke chains, but it's far more mainstream nowadays not to.

Have a slide-show with a few pics if it works. My horse at agility training, learning to put her foot on a foot stand for foot trimming and turning her head away. When I got her, she would plant and refuse to move, rear, spin and kick out, amongst other things. My old boy bowing. Excuse the poos, I should have skipped out first. 

http://s48.photobucket.com/user/SuuC/slideshow/Petforums


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

One of the other problems with trying to get clicker training (or similar) out there in the horse world, is that many clicker trainers don't do normal stuff with their horses, or at least don't promote that they do. It's either trailer loading, or teaching minis to get into doll's houses, tricks, or riding bareback and bridle-less that kind of thing. Basic training and riding is rarely promoted as being clicker trained (or similar), same with competition riding. Dog shows are full of clicker (or similarly) trained dogs, whether doing the first levels of obedience, or on BGT doing dances. I've yet to see someone finish a dressage test and hook a treat from their pocket. :Hungry It's nice if it is starting to trickle out there, as per the show jumper though.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Muttly said:


> Totally get you Elles.
> 
> There are Horse Behaviourists and trainers that do use methods other than punishment out there. Look at the Horse Whisperer blokie (can't remember his name), it's becoming more used now isn't it? I know my sister uses a lot of these methods with hers.
> 
> I guess the difference is also if a dog puts his paws on you, it won't hurt, but a horse does the same thing, you're screwed lol


I am afraid I am one of those who is NOT an admirer of the Horse Whisperer. Monty Roberts's techniques are those of intimidation but unfortunately not a lot of people clocked this. Nor were or are his techniques anything new, like Jan Fennell, he mysticised animals and training; both made a lot of money out of it.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

There's quite a few horsemen who are thought of as horse whisperers, but you're probably right thinking of Monty Roberts, unless they mean the latest 'horse whisperer' film which is Buck Brannaman.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> The horse decides what is punishing. Not you.
> 
> The term "telling them off" implies that they did something deliberately against your wishes. Perfect anthropomorphism.
> 
> ...


What do you call a plain bridle or a show jumping bridle, never heard either term before.



Elles said:


> No. Horse whispering is usually linked to old cowboys with ropes and natural that sort of thing. I'm talking about clicker and reward based training. Although it's not going to be exactly the same for horses and dogs, we ride horses, I do think we could move forward. Though this is now so far off topic, it's silly and I can't even remember how we got here. :Wideyed :Hilarious
> 
> I know what you mean Blitz, although I don't hit my horses or tell them off. People who don't want to tell their horses off, or hit them, often don't train them either and end up with horses who have no idea what to do walking all over them. It's a shame as it's not necessary. Although I do reward my horse during ridden work, I don't clicker train positions, or changes/piaffe etc. under saddle as I have other ideas on classically training. Think centaurs.
> 
> ...


lovely horse



smokeybear said:


> I am afraid I am one of those who is NOT an admirer of the Horse Whisperer. Monty Roberts's techniques are those of intimidation but unfortunately not a lot of people clocked this. Nor were or are his techniques anything new, like Jan Fennell, he mysticised animals and training; both made a lot of money out of it.


I certainly clocked it. I cringe when I see how hard Monty Roberts and the other trainers that work his methods really are. Much like Cesar Milan. I absolutely hate to see it. He also made up most of his beginnings and nothing he has ever done is new. Pat Parelli is even harder. I have broken in loads of ponies and never had a problem doing it quietly and patiently. I have a little 3 year old that 'gives paw' without even a treat as a reward, just a good fuss is enough reward for her.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> I am afraid I am one of those who is NOT an admirer of the Horse Whisperer. Monty Roberts's techniques are those of intimidation but unfortunately not a lot of people clocked this. Nor were or are his techniques anything new, like Jan Fennell, he mysticised animals and training; both made a lot of money out of it.


Amen!

I was once given a copy of Jan Fennell's book. Although I was familiar with her work and less than a fan, I read the book- under the premise of 'understand your enemy' and all that (not that I mean that she is an enemy, she's just a person, it's the methods I oppose). Then it was used as a door stop and eventually then fuel for the wood burner.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Blitz said:


> What do you call a plain bridle or a show jumping bridle, never heard either term before.


Moneta uses mostly bitless bridles.

Others use bridles that vary in severity of bit. Competitors are allowed to use any bit.
They combine this with either a standing or running martingale. Though I believe standing martingales are illegal for some forms of eventing now.

Standing martingales are also known as head checks, interestingly.

Both types serve to restrict the horse's ability to raise it's head- in the context of show jumping this is to prevent them raising their head and running flat out (poor performance).


----------



## Guest (Aug 7, 2015)

lemmsy said:


> Though I believe standing martingales are illegal for some forms of eventing now.


Here they have been banned for the show and eventing arenas for a long time. Can't remember the last time I saw a standing martingale on anything other than ponies going over cross rails. 
Hey, whaddayaknow, one area where the US is actually ahead of the FEI for once


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

lemmsy said:


> The horse world still has a long way to go, till it rejects the use of equipment that relies heavily on negative reinforcement and positive punishment.


That's a difficult one, because there's a lot of equipment that can be used in that way, but it depends on the user and, of course, how the horse views it. Like spurs for example. They can be used for refinement with the lightest touch, or they can prodded deeply into the flesh drawing blood. Or a curb bit, they can be used with a slight vibration on the rein, or pulled on so hard they cut off blood supply to tongue. A curb bit made with a rubber or leather mouthpiece and with elastic as the curb, can easily be a gentler bit than a metal jointed snaffle. So it depends. Not all horses like bit-less bridles either, like you said it's up to the horse. 

Of course strapping his head down, or his mouth shut would be different entirely, that's never right imo.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Cesar Milan did a couple of his tv programmes with Pat Parelli, I expect you already know. Cut from the same cloth.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> Moneta uses mostly bitless bridles.
> 
> Others use bridles that vary in severity of bit. Competitors are allowed to use any bit.
> They combine this with either a standing or running martingale. Though I believe standing martingales are illegal for some forms of eventing now.
> ...


I have to disagree with you. Many showjumpers use bitless bridles which are incredibly severe. The correct bit for each horse makes for a comfortable horse. They all have different shaped mouths and different temperaments.
I am not sure if I have ever seen a standing martingale used for show jumping. They were all the fashion when I was young but they seem to have largely disappeared now. A running martingale is certainly not to stop a horse 'running flat out' whatever that means. It is to stop the horse slinging its head up too high and getting unbalanced or being hard to control or in extremes to knock the rider in the face, it does not restrict it in the least when it is going correctly.



Elles said:


> Cesar Milan did a couple of his tv programmes with Pat Parelli, I expect you already know. Cut from the same cloth.


I did not know that, it would have been interesting to see. I have only seen a few video clips of him and his wife working with horses and was more than shocked as I had been told it was a very gentle and kind training method


----------

