# Help me predict kitten colouring?



## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

Let me start by explaining that if my Luna is pregnant it was accidental and very surprising. She is not yet spayed, and as an indoor cat was presumed to be safe from toms. However, it turns out that a stray I gave to my mother several years ago might not actually have been neutered! We had no idea, but good homes *are* available for Luna-kittens.


Luna is a strange but lovely long haired girl. She was brown when I received her... Gorgeous chocolate brown with darker points. Later she turned black, but her fur is strange in light. It has a tabby pattern and lighter bits now.

She was in heat often through the summer, but wasn't yet spayed. In December I was staying at my mum's a couple of weeks, and she began a fervent heat. However, it only lasted two days unlike normal and has not returned on time or at all.

Her nipples are quite prominent and she is suddenly far more friendly than ever. She is a little piggy about eating anyway, but her tummy is big and she eats more than ever.

After some thought we have wondered about my mother's silver Persian's neuter status. He was found years ago and not claimed. We assumed he was neutered since no one would want a spraying male!
However, he acts like a tom. He is big, muscular, and searches for a fight. We only just remembered instances of spraying. 
After I wondered about Luna mum checked Matvie and thinks she felt evidence of him not being fixed!

Luna would be due around the 18th of February, we estimate.

She has some siamese heritage and her father was a big, black, long-haired tom.

Matvie's history is unknown, but he is a light silver tabby and unmistakably Persian.



Can anyone guess what kitten colouring might result?
I expect longhairs, mostly black or a few silver, but I don't actually know much about this.

Thank you.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Luna&Alba said:


> Let me start by explaining that if my Luna is pregnant it was accidental and very surprising. She is not yet spayed, and as an indoor cat was presumed to be safe from toms. However, it turns out that a stray I gave to my mother several years ago might not actually have been neutered! We had no idea, but good homes *are* available for Luna-kittens.
> 
> Luna is a strange but lovely long haired girl. She was brown when I received her... Gorgeous chocolate brown with darker points. Later she turned black, but her fur is strange in light. It has a tabby pattern and lighter bits now.
> 
> ...


No I can't hun sorry.

But what I can do is offer you some advice ...

*Please book her in at the vets to be spayed. There are too many unwanted cats around ... please don't add to the problem.*

You don't think you are because you have homes already lined up right? Well that's untrue.

If you get her spayed now, then you can contact each person (you will presumably have a dozen or so people interested in case others fall through right?) and ask them if they are serious about having one of her kittens. If they reply yes still, then please explain she has been spayed, but please go to their nearest rescue centre and see if they can adopt a kitty there.

This helps in many ways. Not only will you be doing a very good thing by encouraging folk to go get a kitty from rescue, so less are at risk of being PTS because they don't have room for them. They might also end up giving a home to kitties that have spent years in rescue. Now they really do deserve a second chance don't you think? 

Plus you're saving yourself some possible major problems. Cat's don't always give birth perfectly. There are many who struggle ... some who die during birth, some who need a c-section costing hundreds of pounds, some who reject their kittens and then sometimes they produce still born or very sick kittens who don't make it. This will all cost a lot of money. Pedigree breeders do this, and have all this risk. Hopefully most of them have a contingency fund to cover events like this ... but do you? You could wind up with hundreds of pounds worth of vet bills.

The pregnancy right now it not much more than a bunch of cells ... so there are really no kittens yet. Certainly not any that would survive being born now anyway, which could also happen at any time.

On more thing ... You haven't done any heath tests (hereditary illness for example). So you can not possibly know if the kittens will be healthy. It's a massive risk to take. Could you live with knowing you might have breed your cat and created kittens that might die, or suffer terribly with all sorts of illnesses?

Now you've read all of that (and I haven't even started on the cost of raising a little until 12 weeks old), do you still want to go ahead?

Besides, I'm having trouble imagining how you can miss a male cat having balls :scared:.

One other thing to consider ... she could be having a phantom pregnancy. So if I were you I would make an appointment at the vets anyway hun. Get her checked over just to be sure.

I know this reply will be far from what you wanted or expected. But it is reality hun. Please please please do the right thing. For your girl, and for at least a few kitties in rescue who you have a chance to help save.


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

Thank you. I did expect responses like this, but I am very displeased all the same. Please understand the hostile tone I am about to take after perusing several forums. (I only posted this once, but reading prepared me.)

The persian is furry enough to make it hard to tell, and if he is intact he isn't as largely endowed as one might expect. He very well might *not* be intact, and so I would just be embarrassing myself with this thread. However, I do think there is a chance that Luna is pregnant.

I joined this particular forum over others in hopes of NOT being chastised. I DO understand the overpopulation issue. In fact I have sought to volunteer and keenly feel pain over the issue! I and my family have fixed many cats over the years when others would NOT take responsibility or pay for it. I grew up on a farm where many people assumed it was a good place to dump animals. We always made sure to de-sex and keep up with vaccinations. We did everything right at a large cost, yet I am hurt by the attitude people accost others with online without knowing the background.
It strikes me that on a cat forum people are free to say all the naughty thoughts I might wish to express about humans but must refrain from though I seem to care more for cats, if I admit. It is correct to end a cat pregnancy but not a human's? No, they are not entirely comparable, but I do find this interesting all the same since I find cats more appealing. All I mean to say is that I am not stupid and I do understand the issue. I also happen to love my cat(s) and believe that the homes lined up will not fall through and are responsible regarding care and de-sexing.

Honestly, I just came here looking in excitement for some input on the possible looks of a litter, because my own research is not reliable enough. I find the animosity so uncalled for! Yes, I understand that some idiots just let their cats breed and breed. It appals me, and we have taken steps to remedy this with neighbours.

I would like some leeway, if you please, because Luna WAS going to be fixed and no one presumed in all the years that Matvie might be intact! It was an accident, and the kittens are desired by several friends and relatives. So technically several other cats might have been adopted, but NONE of these people have plans to do so other than for Luna's. I can encourage them, as I actually always do, but LUNA'S potential kittens *will* be accepted and taken care of. Including spaying/neutering. They count. (*IF* there are any kittens, which to be sure no one can yet say.)

I and my family are willing to spend on a cat. I found a kitten this fall and now have a fourth cat I never aimed to. She nearly died of wet FIP, but I was at the vet's daily to save her. I WILL put money where my mouth is to aid a cat.

Is is so hard to answer a person's curiosity? I only wish to know about the genetics here. Please. :frown:


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

PS. My cats have *all* been rescued. My cats are always up to date on vaccinations and de-sexed. Please, please, please don't judge me on an accident!

Also, I don't mean to be so nasty. I just feel so badly about the response. 

In any case she'll be checked by a vet next week.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Luna&Alba said:


> Thank you. I did expect responses like this, but I am very displeased all the same. Please understand the hostile tone I am about to take after perusing several forums. (I only posted this once, but reading prepared me.)
> 
> The persian is furry enough to make it hard to tell, and if he is intact he isn't as largely endowed as one might expect. He very well might *not* be intact, and so I would just be embarrassing myself with this thread. However, I do think there is a chance that Luna is pregnant.
> 
> ...


*First of all I showed you NO animosity or hostility! nor have I chastised you ... I specifically went out of my way to make sure I didn't.*

Secondly It doesn't matter if you have homes lined up for the kittens, it still means you adding to the rescue problems hun. Please read the paragraph I typed about that again. It's simple really ... if those who want one of your kittens, went to a rescue centre instead they would be taking cat/kittens home that already exist. You have a choice to NOT contribute to these rescue problems by getting your girl spayed. The sooner you do it, the less it will affect her.

If you put half as much effort into explaining to those who would like one of her kittens, why you have (hopefully) chosen to spay + the time you would put into finding out coat colours ... well I'm sure you could convince them to go to a rescue centre.

It sounds like you've done some great work for kitties all around you. It would be a shame for you to fall at this hurdle KNOWING what affect it has in doing so.

Lastly ... when you post on any forum, you open yourself up, and indeed welcome opinions. You can NOT pick and choose how people will answer you.

I feel very strongly about animal welfare, and I believe very strongly that Moggie's should never be bred UNLESS all the appropriate health testing is done first, and the breeder follows the same ethics as a pedigree breeder does when raising the kittens.

Oh and I forgot to ask ... how old is Luna?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Luna&Alba said:


> PS. My cats have *all* been rescued. My cats are always up to date on vaccinations and de-sexed. Please, please, please don't judge me on an accident!
> 
> Also, I don't mean to be so nasty. I just feel so badly about the response.
> 
> In any case she'll be checked by a vet next week.


So Luna is a rescue?

This only adds to my point of view. *No rescue animal should be bred from*, if there is an accidental mating ... it is your responsibility to make sure you neuter the animal in question without delay.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

If she is pregnant, how far gone would she be?

Assuming there are no other candidates as far as the father is concerned, and assuming he really is silver (people occasionally get this wrong), you can expect either half or all the kittens to be silver, depending on whether or not Dad carries non-silver. If they are not silver they will be black, unless both parents carry dilution or (if you are incredibly lucky) chocolate. Also you can expect half the kittens to be longhaired.

If you are really lucky, Mum might carry the Siamese pointing gene and Dad might just have some colourpoint in his ancestry. That is a long shot, but if by any chance both are true, you could have pointed kittens too.

Long term, it's not going to be feasible to keep an unspayed female without breeding from her, they eventually make themselves ill from repeated calling. So after this litter is born (assuming your cat actually is pregnant of course) you will need to have her spayed, unless you want to do this again which (as you have realised) would be a very unpopular move as far as this forum is concerned.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Luna&Alba said:


> I and my family are willing to spend on a cat. I found a kitten this fall and now have a fourth cat I never aimed to. She nearly died of wet FIP, but I was at the vet's daily to save her. I WILL put money where my mouth is to aid a cat.


Seriously? You had a definite diagnosis of wet FIP and the cat lived? If your vet is certain of this, please please ask him to contact Dr Addie, any apparently successful FIP treatment regimes are going to be well worth sharing, at present about the best that has ever been achieved is a 10 month remission and even that is regarded as fantastic progress. Dr Addie can be contacted through her website Feline Infectious Peritonitis and Coronavirus Web Site

Liz


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> *First of all I showed you NO animosity or hostility! nor have I chastised you ... I specifically went out of my way to make sure I didn't.*
> 
> Secondly It doesn't matter if you have homes lined up for the kittens, it still means you adding to the rescue problems hun. Please read the paragraph I typed about that again. It's simple really ... if those who want one of your kittens, went to a rescue centre instead they would be taking cat/kittens home that already exist. You have a choice to NOT contribute to these rescue problems by getting your girl spayed. The sooner you do it, the less it will affect her.
> 
> ...


You are right. I saw you were careful in your wording, and that is why I posted again apologising for my nasty tone.

I had been reading around before posting and had my hackles up knowing negative responses would come.

Again, I did not intentionally breed her, and never expected this to happen. It is all new to me. My family does what we know to help in population control, but I hadn't been aware that many people would consider an accidental pregnancy like Luna's to be *quite* so bad.

Anyway, I am sorry, but I hope you see where my reaction came from?

Luna is supposed to be over a year old. She is a big girl now but was very undersized at first, and so I still wonder about the accuracy of the age we were told.

She will be spayed soon, but it might not be until after the kittens are born. My mother has say in this, and she isn't likely to stomach it well.


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> If she is pregnant, how far gone would she be?
> 
> Assuming there are no other candidates as far as the father is concerned, and assuming he really is silver (people occasionally get this wrong), you can expect either half or all the kittens to be silver, depending on whether or not Dad carries non-silver. If they are not silver they will be black, unless both parents carry dilution or (if you are incredibly lucky) chocolate. Also you can expect half the kittens to be longhaired.
> 
> ...


Since mid-December.

That is very interesting! Thank you very much. 

This is Matvie (with a funny lion cut or he'd look nicer.)








Is that silver? He would have darker tips on the light body fur if he wasn't growing out the cut.

Thank you for the information! It is fun to contemplate even if we end up not having the kittens.


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> Seriously? You had a definite diagnosis of wet FIP and the cat lived? If your vet is certain of this, please please ask him to contact Dr Addie, any apparently successful FIP treatment regimes are going to be well worth sharing, at present about the best that has ever been achieved is a 10 month remission and even that is regarded as fantastic progress. Dr Addie can be contacted through her website Feline Infectious Peritonitis and Coronavirus Web Site
> 
> Liz


Romashka was said to have wet FIP soon after I found her. It developed days after she saw the vet for her first checkup and testing, and the vet was very sad about it too. I'd only had her a few days and was advised that if she was in a shelter or fostering situation she'd be PTS, but I asked to try treatment first, because she still had a great appetite and was fighting imo.

She had a lot of fluid drained from around her lungs, and the vet said it looked like FIP and definitely not whatever else it is that could fill the chest. However, we didn't have it sent to the lab because she (the vet) was so sure. So, it wasn't actually confirmed.

Luckily Romashka made it to our surprise after needing the draining again and having the course of prednisone and antibiotics. 
It must have been some other sort of infection? I really don't know, but I was glad she made it!

In the months since she has been perfectly healthy. (The illness occurred in early or mid-October.)


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

cant really add much, but if his a persian he should be PKD tested now.
its kinda easy to tell if a cats been neutered.......they dont have balls!  :lol:

no idea of the colours, I think he looks like a tippy? could be wrong though. if he doesnt hold colour point then none will be colourpoint even if mum holds them, not sure why she was left to call it can make them ill, should just neuter at 6 months then no 'accidents' will happen!


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> cant really add much, but if his a persian he should be PKD tested now.
> its kinda easy to tell if a cats been neutered.......they dont have balls!  :lol:
> 
> no idea of the colours, I think he looks like a tippy? could be wrong though. if he doesnt hold colour point then none will be colourpoint even if mum holds them, not sure why she was left to call it can make them ill, should just neuter at 6 months then no 'accidents' will happen!


Not being used to purebred types of cats I never heard of PKD. I don't know his history except that he looks Persian, but I'll tell mum about this today and see about testing. 
We only ever heard of problems with the flatter faces, which he doesn't have issues with.

Sorry, but what is a tippy exactly?

I'd have to go find old photos of him to remember what his fur is like fully grown out. He goes to the groomers a few times a year and just looks pale where it is shorn.

Yes, we made a mistake putting of the spaying. I cannot argue that. :frown:

My last comment to respond about Romashka's FIP seems to be waiting for moderation instead of posting. Hope it doesn't happen with this one too!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Luna&Alba said:


> Since mid-December.
> 
> That is very interesting! Thank you very much.
> 
> ...


He looks like silver, yes. Mid December - just three weeks? You wouldn't normally feel much difference in the nipples that early, let alone see any swelling tummy.

Liz


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

Her tummy is always big with food and nothing I'd consider a clue, but her nipples are very noticeable. 

Actually it was around the 7th of December that I was there. I had to check.

If she isn't then no one is going to complain


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Luna&Alba said:


> Her tummy is always big with food and nothing I'd consider a clue, but her nipples are very noticeable.
> 
> Actually it was around the 7th of December that I was there. I had to check.
> 
> If she isn't then no one is going to complain


well was she calling and he he get on top of her and mate her? it isnt exactly a quiet operation, not with my girls anyway they scream growl hiss, and the boy does to, so its not like you cant hear/see it?? plus it normally takes the stud/queen sometimes a good 10mins to get into the right place, padding feet up and down, boy side to side, then they end up walking along the floor like a piggy back ride  

tums dont come up to at least 5weeks gone, my bengal who had 8 didnt show until 6half weeks, adn the kittens werre all over 100-120grams each :scared:

nipples with be very big, or slighty bigger and bright pink in colour, eating more, not normally so early on, but some cat start eating more straight away, depends on the cat etc


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Luna&Alba said:


> Her tummy is always big with food and nothing I'd consider a clue, but her nipples are very noticeable.
> 
> Actually it was around the 7th of December that I was there. I had to check.


Four weeks then, yes, that would make sense.

Liz


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Luna&Alba said:


> My last comment to respond about Romashka's FIP seems to be waiting for moderation instead of posting. Hope it doesn't happen with this one too!


 FIP is normally the kiss of death for cats? How long ago did your cat have this? Is your vet sure it was FIP?

Sorry for the questions, it's a subject very close to my heart. If your cat has truly beaten FIP then he/she could carry the secret to saving thousands of other cats lives x

Regarding your cat and kittens, pinking of the nipples and weight gain is a sign, have you taken her to the vets yet to get it confirmed?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> FIP is normally the kiss of death for cats? How long ago did your cat have this? Is your vet sure it was FIP?
> 
> Sorry for the questions, it's a subject very close to my heart. If your cat has truly beaten FIP then he/she could carry the secret to saving thousands of other cats lives x
> 
> Regarding your cat and kittens, pinking of the nipples and weight gain is a sign, have you taken her to the vets yet to get it confirmed?


IF mum has / had FIP can she pass it onto her kittens?????


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> IF mum has / had FIP can she pass it onto her kittens?????


Hmm, not sure if it'd be a passing of actual FIP, but there could be a passing of coronavirus to the kittens if she is still shedding it, and due to a kittens a) Natural slightly weaker state and b) Possible genetic similarity with the mum in their susceptibility?

I might have to go and google on that I've never looked at it for a pregnant kitty angle.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> Hmm, not sure if it'd be a passing of actual FIP, but there could be a passing of coronavirus to the kittens if she is still shedding it, and due to a kittens a) Natural slightly weaker state and b) Possible genetic similarity with the mum in their susceptibility?
> 
> I might have to go and google on that I've never looked at it for a pregnant kitty angle.


oh dear  doesnt sound good does it? I remember now abourt herpes being passed on and I think chalmidyia, and the cat flu through birth, but im not up to stcratch on the fip.


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## celicababe1986 (Jun 22, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> oh dear  doesnt sound good does it? I remember now abourt herpes being passed on and I think chalmidyia, and the cat flu through birth, but im not up to stcratch on the fip.


If I read correctly it isnt the 'possible' expectant mother who had FIP, but another kitten she recently took on?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

celicababe1986 said:


> If I read correctly it isnt the 'possible' expectant mother who had FIP, but another kitten she recently took on?


I have no idea!


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## celicababe1986 (Jun 22, 2009)

Luna&Alba said:


> I and my family are willing to spend on a cat. I found a kitten this fall and now have a fourth cat I never aimed to. She nearly died of wet FIP, but I was at the vet's daily to save her. I WILL put money where my mouth is to aid a cat.
> 
> :


Yes I think I did read it right, was an example of another cat.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

celicababe1986 said:


> Yes I think I did read it right, was an example of another cat.


You beat me to it,I was trying to edit the post, but ,on rereading it ,it is still unclear as to which cat/kitten had suspected wet FIP.


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## celicababe1986 (Jun 22, 2009)

buffie said:


> You beat me to it,I was trying to edit the post, but ,on rereading it ,it is still unclear as to which cat/kitten had suspected wet FIP.


Yes it is, because after that post I questioned myself about it!!

TO OP~ Is Luna the one who had FIP??


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## mycatroxy (Jan 5, 2011)

Luna&Alba said:


> Thank you. I did expect responses like this, but I am very displeased all the same. Please understand the hostile tone I am about to take after perusing several forums. (I only posted this once, but reading prepared me.)
> 
> The persian is furry enough to make it hard to tell, and if he is intact he isn't as largely endowed as one might expect. He very well might *not* be intact, and so I would just be embarrassing myself with this thread. However, I do think there is a chance that Luna is pregnant.
> 
> ...


i completely agree with you i too have had hostiitiy when asking a question.


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> FIP is normally the kiss of death for cats? How long ago did your cat have this? Is your vet sure it was FIP?
> 
> Sorry for the questions, it's a subject very close to my heart. If your cat has truly beaten FIP then he/she could carry the secret to saving thousands of other cats lives x
> 
> Regarding your cat and kittens, pinking of the nipples and weight gain is a sign, have you taken her to the vets yet to get it confirmed?


I wrote a detailed response with all my others, but it said something about awaiting moderation instead of showing here. I kept hoping it would turn up, but I guess not. 

I'll try again, but I am making it the overly-long version this time. 

I found a 5 month old tabby walking home one night, and she ran to me when I exclaimed "kitten!" People don't have indoor-outdoor cats here, and she was in the busy street. So, I took her home and tried to find the owners that I *knew* must be missing such a friendly cat. 
No one claimed her, and according to the woman feeding in that area she was born to a local stray and the last to be seen of the litter.  
I named her Romashka

When I took her to the vet for testing and such she checked out well and won over the vet's heart with her purring and friendliness. 

Several days later she had breathing trouble, and I took her in immediately. The problem came on fast and I was very worried. An X-ray showed fluid around her lungs, and when it was drained the vet told me it had to be FIP. 
I hadn't heard of it before, and the vet was just about as heartbroken explaining it was fatal. 
She told me that if Romashka was in a rescue situation it would be the time to PTS and that the prognosis was not good, but since she was still eating eagerly I asked to try treatment first.

The vet was confident it was FIP, but we didn't have a sample sent to a lab. It couldn't prove for certain anyway, as I recall. So, it was not a lab confirmed case. 
Since Romashka would be treated with antibiotics and prednisone we thought it was good enough to just do so. The vet was very sure about the FIP. 
She told me that the slower the fluid returned the more hopeful we could be. The best I should expect would be for Romashka to survive with an acceptable level of well-being for some months if I was willing to treat problems as they arose, she said.

Unfortunately the next afternoon Romashka had a lot more trouble breathing. The fluid was removed again, but I was told it would be risky to repeat soon since they were getting blood too from the irritation of the prcedure, and that could make the immune response worse. I was so sad for this sweet little kitten and spent every moment with her in my lap or feeding her!

Through this she would eat everything given. Every few hours I fed her as much canned food as she wanted, especially after yucky meds! Somehow she kept going. After some days she started to look more perky, and the fluid did not cause any more problems!

It took a while before I relaxed at all, but after a couple of weeks even the vet was amazed. Both meds were extended just a bit, and Romashka has been perfectly well ever since! (She was ill in October and completely better by the last week of the month.)

I really assume that some other sort of infection must have caused this? I regret now that I didn't have a sample sent out to have better confirmation, but at the time it seemed useless.

As for Luna it won't be until next week that she'd be looked at unless something seems wrong. Meanwhile maybe it will become apparent that she isn't in fact pregnant? We're still not so sure.


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

celicababe1986 said:


> Yes it is, because after that post I questioned myself about it!!
> 
> TO OP~ Is Luna the one who had FIP??


No, it was a younger cat I ended up with this fall. Sorry about the confusion.

Actually all my cats, and those I grew up with, have been so healthy (thankfully) that it was a real shock dealing with a scary illness!


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## celicababe1986 (Jun 22, 2009)

Luna&Alba said:


> No, it was a younger cat I ended up with this fall. Sorry about the confusion.
> 
> Actually all my cats, and those I grew up with, have been so healthy (thankfully) that it was a real shock dealing with a scary illness!


Thanks, I did confuse myself abit. Glad the kitten made a recovery!!


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## SOPHIE1982 (Dec 27, 2010)

I have no idea why you have apologised to this member luna&alba you absolutly had no need to!!!!! I have read and re-read the replys from this particular member and in my opionion this person is a bully! There was no need for the WAY things were said to you, this was an accident and you wanted some advise not a telling off. I believe a VIP member should be alot more friendly while putting their own views across in a friendly manner, anyone would have thought they were talking to a child, but then most people wouldn't even speak to a child this way!!! Have a look through threads and read what other VIP members have put to other people like i did and chose the nicer more helpful people to ask advice in future then you wont be harrassed in this way. 
FORUMS ARE THERE TO CHAT AND HELP NOT TO BE RUDE AND A BULLY!SHAME ON YOU!
Hope everything goes ok for you x


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

SOPHIE1982 said:


> I have no idea why you have apologised to this member luna&alba you absolutly had no need to!!!!! I have read and re-read the replys from this particular member and in my opionion this person is a bully! There was no need for the WAY things were said to you, this was an accident and you wanted some advise not a telling off. I believe a VIP member should be alot more friendly while putting their own views across in a friendly manner, anyone would have thought they were talking to a child, but then most people wouldn't even speak to a child this way!!! Have a look through threads and read what other VIP members have put to other people like i did and chose the nicer more helpful people to ask advice in future then you wont be harrassed in this way.
> FORUMS ARE THERE TO CHAT AND HELP NOT TO BE RUDE AND A BULLY!SHAME ON YOU!
> Hope everything goes ok for you x


Is that aimed at me? :lol:

You're so far off the mark it's unreal. Wouldn't happen to be a previous disgruntled member would you?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Is that aimed at me? :lol:
> 
> *Wouldn't happen to be a previous disgruntled member would you?*


what make's you say that Sherlock?????

roflmfaooooooo....

Meeko.... fire up the mobile!!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Tje said:


> what make's you say that Sherlock?????
> 
> roflmfaooooooo....
> 
> Meeko.... fire up the mobile!!


shes sherlock im miss marples...........which one are you????   :lol:


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## SOPHIE1982 (Dec 27, 2010)

sooorrrrryyyyyxx


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> shes sherlock im miss marples...........which one are you????   :lol:


I want to be a sexy, tall, blond bomb shell of a detective.... can't think of one tho... heheheee. (oh and she has to be young too)

:lol:


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Tje said:


> I want to be a sexy, tall, blond bomb shell of a detective.... can't think of one tho... heheheee. (oh and she has to be young too)
> 
> :lol:


oooo what about...... erm.....buffy?? well, not a dective but shes some sort of kick ass slayer lol! :lol:


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

SOPHIE1982 said:


> no not at all and usually wouldnt say anything to anyone whether i agree or not but this isnt the first post i've read of yours of this nature and you seem to be the one whos way of the mark!!! These ppl are new and in need of advise, and everyone is entitled to give their opinion but i dont think that the WAY you give it is very friendly or appropiate and i think you will find i'm not the only person who feels this way! Forums are not a bullying platform they are there for making friends, giving advise, learning from others, helping ppl etc and there is a much nicer way of giving your point of view and like you said in your reply to not only luna but others ppl are entitled to their opinion and this is mine and now you don't like it. Its not very nice is it? I'm guessing you will argue and argue with me now but thats fine cause you'll just justify what i've said.
> And also i'm a rabbit breeder and i totally agree with the over breeding, breeding without any back ground health checks on the animal and its family line and ppl who have these pets and totally neglect them and not providing them with the medical attention they need, your right, whatever the animal its an expensive game and it should be seriously thought over first but i'd never lecture ppl when they aren't even asking anything that your not even willing to give advise on. People wont here your very important message because you put it across in a bullying way.


Seriously I don't agree. But I'm not going to argue with you beyond this post as I suspect that's what you want 

I'll keep on doing what I do because I believe so strongly about it. If doing that offends a few people then I'm sorry ... BUT I'm doing it for the animals that have no voice. I'm sure if they could speak they would be grateful that someone is fighting their corner, as their owners aren't.

This is not a general chat forum, it's a PET forum where people who care about animals go. I care and will always care enough to try and make difference.

That's the last I'll say in reply to you Sophie, as like I said ... I suspect you're after an argument and I'm not going to give it to you anymore than I have


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## MatildaG (Nov 8, 2010)

SOPHIE1982 said:


> no not at all and usually wouldnt say anything to anyone whether i agree or not but this isnt the first post i've read of yours of this nature and you seem to be the one whos way of the mark!!! These ppl are new and in need of advise, and everyone is entitled to give their opinion but i dont think that the WAY you give it is very friendly or appropiate* and i think you will find i'm not the only person who feels this way! *
> 
> How do you know (as a newbie having only made 5 posts to date)?
> 
> ...


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

SOPHIE1982 said:


> I have no idea why you have apologised to this member luna&alba you absolutly had no need to!!!!! I have read and re-read the replys from this particular member and in my opionion this person is a bully! There was no need for the WAY things were said to you, this was an accident and you wanted some advise not a telling off. I believe a VIP member should be alot more friendly while putting their own views across in a friendly manner, anyone would have thought they were talking to a child, but then most people wouldn't even speak to a child this way!!! Have a look through threads and read what other VIP members have put to other people like i did and chose the nicer more helpful people to ask advice in future then you wont be harrassed in this way.
> FORUMS ARE THERE TO CHAT AND HELP NOT TO BE RUDE AND A BULLY!SHAME ON YOU!
> Hope everything goes ok for you x


Another *newbie* with an axe to grind? This is getting soooooooooooooo tedious 

I've read the entire thread and can't see any bullying going on. In fact the only offensive post is THE ONE FROM THE NEWBIE THAT IS SHOUTING!!!


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> oooo what about...... erm.....buffy?? well, not a dective but shes some sort of kick ass slayer lol! :lol:


We already have a buffie on this forum!! :lol:


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## SOPHIE1982 (Dec 27, 2010)

No i dont want to argue not at all thats pointless and i said i agreed with you did i not and i do totally just dont see why it has to be done in an unpleasent way? Like i said earlier if you upset people by being so agressive then they wont be taking in and listening to your very important message because they will have their backs up, and you've said how strongly you feel so surely you would want them to listen?? surely you will agree with me on that point at least? its common sense.


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## SOPHIE1982 (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm sorry, shouting? Is that because it was in capitals? I didn't mean to 'shout' that i'll apologise for as i didnt realise. No axe no and i totally agree 100% just think ppl could be a bit more friendly and less intimidating while giving their opinion?


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## SOPHIE1982 (Dec 27, 2010)

And please my name is Sophie, you could of asked rather than call me newbie x


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

SOPHIE1982 said:


> *No i dont want to argue *not at all thats pointless and i said i agreed with you did i not and i do totally just dont see why it has to be done in an unpleasent way? Like i said earlier if you *upset people by being so agressive *then they wont be taking in and listening to your very important message because they will have their backs up, and you've said how strongly you feel so surely you would want them to listen?? surely you will agree with me on that point at least? its common sense.


You say you don't want to argue, yet you post on this thread in a 'shouting manner', make no clear valid points and then accuse people of upsetting others and being aggressive 

No-one has been unpleasant; people have given advice based on their experience and if the OP wishes to take this advice or disregard it, the choice is theirs.

This is a public forum and people are entitled to voice their opinion within the forum guidelines.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MatildaG said:


> How do you know (as a newbie having only made 5 posts to date)?
> 
> There seem to be a lot of new members arriving recently who are attacking the people who are here day in, day out giving extremely accurate and helpful advice (whether the recipients want to hear it or not) and have been for a long time. No one else is going to the efforts they are on this forum.
> 
> I feel the need to say my bit because I would hate for all these naive complaints to result in those people changing the advice they give or disappering all together.


Well spotted, and I agree. Too many "newbies" popping up with a) controversial topics and b) indepth knowledge of regular posters. It is such a pity that a "valuable resource" as Aurelia, feels she has to waste her time responding to nonsense like this, when she could be spending that time posting on cat or kitten welfare. And yes, it would be a total crime if a valuable poster like Aurelia got put off of the forum due to trolls like this.

Sophie, go troll somewhere else.



dougal22 said:


> Another *newbie* with an axe to grind? This is getting soooooooooooooo tedious
> 
> I've read the entire thread and can't see any bullying going on. In fact the only offensive post is THE ONE FROM THE NEWBIE THAT IS SHOUTING!!!


agree, lol, the newbie trolls were funny in the beginning but they are beyond boring now.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

SOPHIE1982 said:


> And please my name is Sophie, you could of asked rather than call me newbie x


In line with PF guidelines and appropriate language, you are a PF newbie; this is quoted under the name in which you choose to post. This is not meant as an offensive term, it is how you may be addressed on PF and whilst you remain in the newbie status, I shall refer to you as such.


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## SOPHIE1982 (Dec 27, 2010)

Ok fair enough. I've been on here alot but yes i've only just posted. I have read alot of comments before i wrote that i honestly didnt just decide to insult people i just believe that there is a correct way to speak to me. I'm not negative about the advise its bang on! "newbie" isnt a very nice way to address someone exactly my point. I appreciate your point tho and yes these forums are brilliant for good honest advise i for one would be lost without them! x


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

dougal22 said:


> In line with PF guidelines and appropriate language, you are a PF newbie;* this is quoted under the name in which you choose to post. *This is not meant as an offensive term, it is how you may be addressed on PF and whilst you remain in the newbie status, I shall refer to you as such.


Blimey do you know what? I have never before noticed that! how bad is that lol?? oooo im vip haha!!  :thumbup:


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

SOPHIE1982 said:


> Ok fair enough. I've been on here alot but yes i've only just posted. I have read alot of comments before i wrote that i honestly didnt just decide to insult people i just believe that there is a correct way to speak to me. I'm not negative about the advise its bang on! "*newbie" isnt a very nice way to address someone* exactly my point. I appreciate your point tho and yes these forums are brilliant for good honest advise i for one would be lost without them! x


I think it sounds quiet nice, your 'new' so newbie lol!


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

SOPHIE1982 said:


> Ok fair enough. I've been on here alot but yes i've only just posted. I have read alot of comments before i wrote that i honestly didnt just decide to insult people *i just believe that there is a correct way to speak to me. *I'm not negative about the advise its bang on! "newbie" isnt a very nice way to address someone exactly my point. I appreciate your point tho and yes these forums are brilliant for good honest advise i for one would be lost without them! x


Everyone is entitled to post advice how they see fit. People are not here to take your individual needs into account with regards to being mindful of how they address you. The advice is posted in good faith. Take it or leave it


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## SOPHIE1982 (Dec 27, 2010)

oh ok i didnt realise that, i'm really sorry i thought it was an offensive term. 
I think next time i'll keep my opinions to myself, must of been having a stressful hour with my girls! I do agree tho with what was said i never said otherwise, i prob should'nt of said anything x


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

SOPHIE1982 said:


> Ok fair enough. I've been on here alot but yes i've only just posted. I have read alot of comments before i wrote that i honestly didnt just decide to insult people *i just believe that there is a correct way to speak to me*. I'm not negative about the advise its bang on! "newbie" isnt a very nice way to address someone exactly my point. I appreciate your point tho and yes these forums are brilliant for good honest advise i for one would be lost without them! x


maybe you should start practicing what you preach then, and start speaking to others in the same manner you wish to be spoken to. You were hardly friendly or polite to Aurelia, referring to her as "this member", so I don't for the life of me understand that you can take offence to being called a newbie. What goes around comes around !!


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## SOPHIE1982 (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm not sure in what way is shouting??? someone tell me cause its not something i want to go round doing! x If i have "shouted" its been in error!


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## SOPHIE1982 (Dec 27, 2010)

You can see i'm trying to correct myself with everyone. I didnt realise newbie was a forum term at all and yes i should of used her name at the beginning but like i said i shouldnt of posted my opinion at all and kept it to myself. I didnt think first.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> oooo what about...... erm.....buffy?? well, not a dective but shes some sort of kick ass slayer lol! :lol:


Hi someone call for a Tall,sexy,blonde bombshell detective called buffie,tough you got me:lol::lol:Mobile all fired up and ready to go,elastic band wound tight round important part of Meeko ,to ensure total concentration while on the job.


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## SOPHIE1982 (Dec 27, 2010)

lol thank you! at least your not after my blood so yes i'll settle for being called newbie!lol  think this was a classic case of digging myself a hole  x


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

buffie said:


> Hi someone call for a Tall,sexy,blonde bombshell detective called buffie,tough you got me:lol::lol:Mobile all fired up and ready to go,elastic band wound tight round important part of Meeko ,to ensure total concentration while on the job.


da's ma boy!!!!!


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

How long is one a "newbie" for? It does sound a little patronising tbh.


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

I rang the vet about having Luna checked, but they told me to wait two more weeks and they'll do an X-ray. 

I'm impatient. 

Actually I might see if I can get her in sooner, because what if this is something else going on? Besides, couldn't they feel her tummy?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Luna&Alba said:


> I rang the vet about having Luna checked, but they told me to wait two more weeks and they'll do an X-ray.
> 
> I'm impatient.
> 
> Actually I might see if I can get her in sooner, because what if this is something else going on? Besides, couldn't they feel her tummy?


I really wouldnt bother with a x-raY!!! they can do scans, but they arent really worth it and not accurate, they can feel her tum from about 3weeks but at 5/6 it become obvious that they are in kitten.


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> I really wouldnt bother with a x-raY!!! they can do scans, but they arent really worth it and not accurate, they can feel her tum from about 3weeks but at 5/6 it become obvious that they are in kitten.


Oh, thank you! As I recall the X-ray isn't so cheap, so maybe they want to do it. 

I'd like to just wait, but I'm a bit nervous. Maybe I'll get her in Monday then for a feel?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Luna&Alba said:


> Oh, thank you! As I recall the X-ray isn't so cheap, so maybe they want to do it.
> 
> I'd like to just wait, but I'm a bit nervous. Maybe I'll get her in Monday then for a feel?


did the vet say she has to have a scan? im forgetting what this thread is about now!


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> did the vet say she has to have a scan? im forgetting what this thread is about now!


I only asked to have a check since I suspected she was pregnant. The receptionist asked when I thought mating took place and told me to wait two weeks for an X-ray. So, it wasn't the vet.

 Yes, the thread is confusing! I just hope that the person interested in the FIP story found my post.


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Luna&Alba said:


> I only asked to have a check since I suspected she was pregnant. The receptionist asked when I thought mating took place and told me to wait two weeks for an X-ray. So, it wasn't the vet.
> 
> Yes, the thread is confusing! I just hope that the person interested in the FIP story found my post.


I just did thanks  I think your thoughts on this are correct, it must have been something else. I'm sure if the vet thought they cured FIP they'd have been jumping up and down and asking permission to take a few samples. Your kitty would be famous by now


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> I just did thanks  I think your thoughts on this are correct, it must have been something else. I'm sure if the vet thought they cured FIP they'd have been jumping up and down and asking permission to take a few samples. Your kitty would be famous by now


Yes, that must be the case. Too bad, because I'd love to see a cure or something for it!


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

Back to the colouring...

Luna has red eyes not green, and I recall being told her mother was half Siamese. So, that ought to be true with the red eyes? (They are just normal gold-green otherwise.)

I still cannot believe we'd miss an un-neutered boy.  I am not going to be able to check until mid-week, but mum swears there are two somethings (but not much) there. Can it be??

Only a few of Luna's nipples are pinkish. The rest are still prominent, but not quite as pink as I'd be sure of saying pregnant over. My other cats have practically no nipple, and those are flat against the belly. Luna's stand out straight and are between half a cm and a cm long but are not so wide really. 

I am going nuts here. 


ETA: also, Luna has what I think might be "smoked" fur. Her fur is light grey when parted.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2011)

May I ask why your mother has a say over when your girl gets spayed?

I fail to see why you have not taken her to be spayed already...as you say ALL your cats are rescue cats, so you know full well the risk of the kittens ending up just adding to the rescue population as too because she has not been health tested you are risking sick kittens.

Growing up my mum had a female cat that got "caught" just your standard moggy like yours.....my mum didnt do a spay she wanted the kittens.
My mums cat needed a c-section....both mum cat and kittens died in the vets. My mum left the vets without her cat, without the kittens and with a vets bill as long as her arm.

Regardless you seem.....excited? At the fact this litter could be any colour in the world....does it matter? You should be more worried about the genetic problems of the dad and mum and ensuring you know of these for when the kittens arrive. 

If the boy was a rescue why has he not been seen by a vet at any stage of being with you? If he had been the vet would have been able to tell you if he was neutered or not.

I used to help foster....every foster cat and dog we got in was vet checked and ensured we knew if they had been spayed/nuetered and if they had any illness's before they left for their new homes. 

There's no point in going well there could be some Siamese in her somewhere so they are half Siamese half Persian so they will come out orange with pink spots....they are kittens regardless of if you end up with a whole black litter or if they come out naked. 

Its not me or anyone else on here having a go but you have come on here and made out that the most important thing in the world is the kittens colour....what happens if the kittens are born with a health problem that means they will have to be put to sleep? 

This is what everyone else has tried to say...to you and many others.
Its not about wanting a cute batch of kittens to hug for 12 weeks...its about mum and if she can survive it and if the kittens will be healthy.

Anyway good luck with the litter as I am guessing that spaying is not a option.


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## Luna&Alba (Jan 4, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> May I ask why your mother has a say over when your girl gets spayed?
> 
> I fail to see why you have not taken her to be spayed already...as you say ALL your cats are rescue cats, so you know full well the risk of the kittens ending up just adding to the rescue population as too because she has not been health tested you are risking sick kittens.
> 
> ...


My mother has a say because I recently ended up unable to work and my abusive husband just left the picture too. She is helping me out (besides my savings.) She isn't inclined to abort anyway.

I didn't take her, because I was stupid. We thought it wasn't urgent to fix knowing all the males were and no one gets out.

I'll admit I am excited. I'll admit it. I love my little girl.

Your story is scary. I hope so much nothing like that happens. Our cats never had many health problems at all, so I guess we are complacent.

Yes, Matvie saw the vet several times. I took him right after being found for testing and to check for a chip. Since then my mother's vet has taken care of shots and such, but everyone just assumed he was neutered. He may well be, but?? I'd like for mum to have that checked, but she prefers to wait. For the moment I don't want to argue with her.

I don't care what colours, but I am interested and curious to guess.
In my experience I've never know a kitten needing to be put to sleep. I hope it doesn't change.

I am willing to admit I am being foolish. Sorry.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Regardless you seem.....excited? At the fact this litter could be any colour in the world....does it matter? You should be more worried about the genetic problems of the dad and mum and ensuring you know of these for when the kittens arrive.


Not to hijack the thread, but oh if only people put half as much thought into reproducing as responsible cat and dog breeders do! But somehow some guy was willing to take you home drunk from a bar and forgot to use protection is a wonderful father prospect.

I think I've just read enough of these things, and it keeps eating at me--if only people were as responsible. Sorry for the off topic lament--if I didn't get it out, I think I might burst.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2011)

dagny0823 said:


> Not to hijack the thread, but oh if only people put half as much thought into reproducing as responsible cat and dog breeders do! But somehow some guy was willing to take you home drunk from a bar and forgot to use protection is a wonderful father prospect.
> 
> I think I've just read enough of these things, and it keeps eating at me--if only people were as responsible. Sorry for the off topic lament--if I didn't get it out, I think I might burst.


Aye I agree with you on that.....tbh I have never even been to a club let alone slept with a guy who I am not in a long term relationship with.

Though I have a friend who on purpose goes out to get pregnant so she can get money. :scared:

It just gets my back up that people dont care what genetic problems they could be bringing into poor kittens but do care about colour?:confused1:


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Luna&Alba said:


> Yes, Matvie saw the vet several times. I took him right after being found for testing and to check for a chip. Since then my mother's vet has taken care of shots and such, but everyone just assumed he was neutered. He may well be, but?? I'd like for mum to have that checked, but she prefers to wait. For the moment I don't want to argue with her.


For what it's worth, our Pippin was neutered at the shelter when he was about 7 weeks old. He's got a puffier sack than Henry, who was neutered at 6 months. He almost looks like there could be something back there, and I have read that, when a male is neutered very young, sometimes a testicle is late to descend, so they actually could impregnate a female, although it would take more work to do so. But I think he's perfectly sterile--so it can be misleading to look for balls, I suppose, especially with a fluffy cat and I'm sure he isn't keen on having them squeezed. And if the vet never said anything, I can see where you'd just assume he really had been done.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Aye I agree with you on that.....tbh I have never even been to a club let alone slept with a guy who I am not in a long term relationship with.
> 
> Though I have a friend who on purpose goes out to get pregnant so she can get money. :scared:
> 
> It just gets my back up that people dont care what genetic problems they could be bringing into poor kittens but do care about colour?:confused1:


That is a scary friend. My goodness.

I think your average pet owner, even ones who think they'd like to breed from their cute pets, haven't a clue about genetics or testing or anything of the sort. If they were educated, I do think a lot would care. But there's a lot of folks who I expect wouldn't care and would think it's a pointless waste of money and time.

My OH has an acquaintance whose MIL breeds chihuahuas as I believe her sole form of financial support. I queried on here about standard tests for the breed so we could ask them. She hasn't a clue about any testing whatsoever---got the deer in the headlights look from them when we asked---yet they claim their dogs are champion show dogs.

So, if she's passing off her dogs this way and doesn't do the first test at all, you know someone whose dog or cat just "accidentally" (and that's not a knock at the OP--I think it really was an accident in this case) got pregnant will never bother. In fact, I had a former neighbor seriously suggest breeding Ragnar with their dog because the pups would be cute and he's "so stunning". He's a purebred, but they don't know his lineage or health status, and their dog is a cross from an accidental mating. :scared:


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2011)

dagny0823 said:


> That is a scary friend. My goodness.
> 
> I think your average pet owner, even ones who think they'd like to breed from their cute pets, haven't a clue about genetics or testing or anything of the sort. If they were educated, I do think a lot would care. But there's a lot of folks who I expect wouldn't care and would think it's a pointless waste of money and time.
> 
> ...


I dont mean to sound pig headed but I do not agree with breeding cross's or moggies...there are already to many out there that need homes and the large amount of time they do not know what breed their cross has in them or the linage.

It upsets me that in my breed alot of the breeders do not do any tests other than the eye exam....I dont believe in breeding any breed or cross unless health tested and their linage is known.

I have seen the damage these money making byb's do. My gsd cross is proof of that.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I dont mean to sound pig headed but I do not agree with breeding cross's or moggies...there are already to many out there that need homes and the large amount of time they do not know what breed their cross has in them or the linage.
> 
> It upsets me that in my breed alot of the breeders do not do any tests other than the eye exam....I dont believe in breeding any breed or cross unless health tested and their linage is known.
> 
> I have seen the damage these money making byb's do. My gsd cross is proof of that.


The best dog I've ever known or had was the cross we got when I was 10. The "breeders" thought he was a cocker spaniel cross, but there was no evidence of that at all. Mom looked part gordon setter, dad was nowhere to be found and Beau was very obviously part sheltie or rough collie. He was great--so very smart and sweet and well-behaved. But he had a lot of health issues. He had constant ear infections and around the age of 4 developed epilepsy. Coincidence? I doubt it. Sure, my parents didn't know much and we fed him horrible Gains Burgers, but I don't think his diet was to blame. I think it was dodgy genetics.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2011)

dagny0823 said:


> The best dog I've ever known or had was the cross we got when I was 10. The "breeders" thought he was a cocker spaniel cross, but there was no evidence of that at all. Mom looked part gordon setter, dad was nowhere to be found and Beau was very obviously part sheltie or rough collie. He was great--so very smart and sweet and well-behaved. But he had a lot of health issues. He had constant ear infections and around the age of 4 developed epilepsy. Coincidence? I doubt it. Sure, my parents didn't know much and we fed him horrible Gains Burgers, but I don't think his diet was to blame. I think it was dodgy genetics.


Exactly.....

When you cross two dogs/cats from un-known lines that are not health tested you are asking for trouble.

You find cross breeders usually give you the animal and thats it....many pedigree breeders like to keep in contact with the new owner so if problems come up the breeder then is fully aware that mating didnt work or whatever.

My two shelties I am in contact with their breeders and my possible 3rd sheltie (due to come to us in feb if everything works out) I am in contact with his breeder every day...

It just upsets me when you see "accident" matings of cross's that are un-health tested but the owners seem to think its the best thing ever. Its not them that have to pick up the pieces when the dog dies from a genetic problem or so on.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Just want to say that if your mum is looking over your finances and a £30-50 spay is out of the question how are you going to afford a £700 c-section?

my girl was never ill and she nearly needed one, the bill came to £250 as she had injections and a over night stay, and we were lucky!

kittens cost a hell of alot, how are you goin g to afford all the birthing items? food/litter comes to £10 a day here for kittens up to 13weeks, and mum, and we kept 2 kittens for a extra 4weeks as the owners couldnt take them. £50-70 (depending on where you are) vacs per kitten? 

say mum needs to be rushed up the vet as she isnt producing milk or gets a infection?

if you cant afford £30-50 neuter you cant afford to breed!

also just to add that the pdsa wont help you either as they do not beleive in breeding, accident or not.

also red eyes means nothing, siamese have blue eyes, and if mums a 1/4 (give me strength) and dad is a persian silver, you wont have any colourpoints as dad doesnt hold the gene, well and if mum Is a 1/4.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> Just want to say that if your mum is looking over your finances and a £30-50 spay is out of the question how are you going to afford a £700 c-section?
> 
> my girl was never ill and she nearly needed one, the bill came to £250 as she had injections and a over night stay, and we were lucky!
> 
> ...


This is a very good point....

Spaying is nothing in cost compared to the cost of a litter of kittens.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> Just want to say that if your mum is looking over your finances and a £30-50 spay is out of the question how are you going to afford a £700 c-section?
> 
> my girl was never ill and she nearly needed one, the bill came to £250 as she had injections and a over night stay, and we were lucky!
> 
> ...


You can almost double that for neutering over here  nearly £90 for a boy and nearly £100 for a girl  i paid over £80 for my girl and over £70 for my boy but the prices have gone up again!

Having said that i completely utterly agree with that statement :thumbup: its madness how anyone can think that they can afford to breed properly when they can't afford the most basic things!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> You can almost double that for neutering over here  nearly £90 for a boy and nearly £100 for a girl  i paid over £80 for my girl and over £70 for my boy but the prices have gone up again!
> 
> Having said that i completely utterly agree with that statement :thumbup: its madness how anyone can think that they can afford to breed properly when they can't afford the most basic things!


blimey really? i think the 2 vets near me are cheap but yes alot of people said im lucky paying that! so there we go £70-100 in some places!!


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