# self correction collar



## smudgebiscuit

last night at our puppy class the trainer used a self correction collar on a dog as it kept barking aggresively & lunging at all the other dogs. This behaviour has gone on for most of the 8 weeks we have been going and the owner was very upset by it. At first glance i was appalled by the collar as it looked quite barbaric & i wasn't keen on it being used on the dog.....but as soon as it was put on the dog he was behaving differently-no barking,lunging or pulling it's owner over. He just seemed calmer-tail was wagging & he was totally focussed on his owner-which he has never been at any of the classes or at home according to the owner. The trainer showed me the collar close up & it was little metal flaps-not hooks that close in if the dog pulls-i put it round my leg to see if it hurt & it didn't-just tightened a bit. So i tried it on Molly-my lord what a diffference-she didn't pull at all( she usually behaves well in class then as soon as we get to the door she pulls like mad & lunges forward) i walked her up & down outside for 10mins & she was just different,relaxed & a joy on the lead. So was just wondering if anyone else has either used one or has any experience with them-please don't be horrible & say i was cruel to my Molly-just tried it to see how they worked.


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## NicoleW

It sounds like a nicer version of a prong collar. Going to see if I can google it


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## pearltheplank

Is it actually called a self correction collar? Do you have a link so that we can view?


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## smudgebiscuit

Apparently they get their stock from Germany-it was a bit like this one LuvMyDog Worldwide Neck Tech Black Stainless Steel ClicLock Buckle Prong Collar 60cm/24": Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies but the prong thingies were nowhere near as harsh as that.


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## NicoleW

Did it look like


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## smudgebiscuit

NicoleW-no it wasn't like that-the prongy things were a lot shorter & not pointy-i've attached a pic that is quite similar to the one they had


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## Blondie

Prong collars and their more modern, gentler counterparts are a tool that can work very well, BUT, you will always get peeps who will jump on you for using them! Personally, I would only consider using them in very extreme cases, like in a truly 'red-zone' dog which is dog-dog or dog-people aggressive and it would only be used for rehabilitation purposes, NOT to wear all the time. I really do think they are a last resort option. I have witnessed many a redzone dog be rehabilitated with prong collars way back in the 80's, used by people who knew what they were doing, these dogs were successfully returned to their families - the only other option left to these dogs was PTS, and none of them were.

One of my bitches pulled me like a steam train for a long time, not responding to various training methods. I eventually took her out for a mile long walk and every time she pulled I stood still, no eye contact, no speaking, no tugging on lead, I simply stood still until she stood still, then set off again. It is very difficult to restrain yourself from not giving dog any contact and stopping yourself from getting annoyed, lol, but it worked and she doestn pull anymore! By the way, it took me and hour to walk a mile that day - longest time its ever took me, lol!! I certainly wouldnt use one on a dog that wouldnt walk to heel - far better training methods around these days than a fear/pain based one.


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## NicoleW

That's really nice to read coming from a rottie owner. I know lot of owners of Rotties that actually use prong collars for puppies, choke chains on pups because they can't control them.


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## RobD-BCactive

The problem with it is, it's possibly inhibiting the symptoms; rather than truly addressing the underlying cause. A well socialised pup can look forward to off leash play in public, whilst one controlled via some device won't enjoy such freedom.

A non-barbaric device like a frontclip (or doubleclip lke Halti) harness might have seemed to work similarly by breaking associations, developed on other collar.

If this kind of thing is resorted to in "puppy" classes, then it strengthens my belief in puppy play & managed socialisation opportunities, rather than waiting to train at an enrolled course for puppiies. Presumably this was actually a young dog, with adolescent type issues, rather than a fresh young pup.


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## smudgebiscuit

The owners have-like us used all of the haltis,canny etc collars with no success-think the dog is about 2years old & they have had him 6 months


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## hawksport

smudgebiscuit said:


> Apparently they get their stock from Germany-it was a bit like this one LuvMyDog Worldwide Neck Tech Black Stainless Steel ClicLock Buckle Prong Collar 60cm/24": Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies but the prong thingies were nowhere near as harsh as that.


That looks little more than a forced spike collar to me


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## RobD-BCactive

Ceearott said:


> One of my bitches pulled me like a steam train for a long time, not responding to various training methods. I eventually took her out for a mile long walk and every time she pulled I stood still, no eye contact, no speaking, no tugging on lead, I simply stood still until she stood still, then set off again. It is very difficult to restrain yourself from not giving dog any contact and stopping yourself from getting annoyed, lol, but it worked and she doestn pull anymore! By the way, it took me and hour to walk a mile that day


Often real life means people have to combine exercising the dog with some other activity, like collecting a child from school and then it's very hard to maintain the required patience. Setting aside the time to focus on sorting something out can be half the battle!


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## Blondie

NicoleW said:


> That's really nice to read coming from a rottie owner. I know lot of owners of Rotties that actually use prong collars for puppies, choke chains on pups because they can't control them.


 Why on earth would you want to use one a PUPPY FFS!!!!!!

I do use check chains on my males at dog shows, purely because I need to be safe in the knowledge that should anything kick off, I can have full control of my boys, they dont wear them in the house.


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## Blondie

RobD-BCactive said:


> Often real life means people have to combine exercising the dog with some other activity, like collecting a child from school and then it's very hard to maintain the required patience. Setting aside the time to focus on sorting something out can be half the battle!


Very true, but, to my mind, if you aint got time to devote to one-to-one training sessions with your dog and just plain one-to-one playing time etc, why own a dog?? Sorry if that seems harsh, but its reality! I own five adult rotties, have two teenage daughters, a full-time job and a disabled OH, I still find time to give my dogs invidual walks and attention and training when needed, if I couldnt do this, I wouldnt own 5. 

P.S. - I well remember taking my rott to school when my kids were at primary school to pick them up at the gates and got told my dog wasnt welcome and would I refrain from bringing such a breed to the school gates, lol!!


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## NicoleW

RobD-BCactive said:


> Often real life means people have to combine exercising the dog with some other activity, like collecting a child from school and then it's very hard to maintain the required patience. Setting aside the time to focus on sorting something out can be half the battle!


Definately! I'm almost never without a pushchair, which does add to the problem because I can't change direction quickly if he pulls. Duke the bugger that he is will wait until we're on a road and then pull, and I can't exactly stop in the middle of the road!


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## RobD-BCactive

smudgebiscuit said:


> The owners have-like us used all of the haltis,canny etc collars with no success-think the dog is about 2years old & they have had him 6 months


That's really sad to read, I didn't attend the best type of class, but I did see some very unpromising dogs like that make good progress, without resorting to quick fixes.

Perhaps as a group, they were more comitted than average.


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## Malmum

Flynn is my bane, bless him and i've tried all sorts with him, not anything like that though. There was a time when I could walk him on just a slip lead but now i've just bought a dogmatic. There's the proof to me that Flynn gets his bad behavior from the energy I give out otherwise why would he be walkable at one point on a simple slip lead and now he's not?
My fear of other dogs has escalated and with it so has Flynns. Sometimes I think it's us who need to sort ourselves out and not the dog because if I can remain calm so does my boy - unfortunately for him he has an erratic mummy, lol. 

I know it must be awful to have a dog pulling but I think the standing still thing is very good advice, as no dog likes to stand still on a walk. Flynn doesn't pull at all it's just when we see another dog things can go awry and that's because of the fear I feel i'm sure!


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## Blondie

Malmum said:


> Flynn is my bane, bless him and i've tried all sorts with him, not anything like that though. There was a time when I could walk him on just a slip lead but now i've just bought a dogmatic. There's the proof to me that Flynn gets his bad behavior from the energy I give out otherwise why would he be walkable at one point on a simple slip lead and now he's not?
> My fear of other dogs has escalated and with it so has Flynns. Sometimes I think it's us who need to sort ourselves out and not the dog because if I can remain calm so does my boy - unfortunately for him he has an erratic mummy, lol.
> 
> I know it must be awful to have a dog pulling but I think the standing still thing is very good advice, as no dog likes to stand still on a walk. Flynn doesn't pull at all it's just when we see another dog things can go awry and that's because of the fear I feel i'm sure!


Clicker training may be an option for you, Its hard work and requires patience and dedication but the rewards are great! I plan on clicker training my next pup.


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## smudgebiscuit

as with everything in life-different things suite different people (or dogs )

i was told that the canny collar was amiracle product that would help to stop Molly pulling-likewise with the Halti & dogmatic. We have had her 3 months and have tried the stopping when she pulls approach,turning around the other way,squeaky toy etc and nothing has worked. She can walk to heel-ish at the puppy class & in our garden-but as soon as you get her outside she pulls & fights to get whichever head collar she has on off her face. We have also tried harnesses & she is even worse on those. I'm not getting Molly one of those self correction collars-going to persevere with the stopping & Dogmatic & see how we get on....just wanted to know if anyone had used one.


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## RobD-BCactive

NicoleW said:


> I can't exactly stop in the middle of the road!


Yep!! That's exactly where my dog is going to surge ahead and frankly so long as he doesn't pull, I'm glad he wants off the road, as it's not the place I want to hang about.



Ceearott said:


> Very true, but, to my mind, if you aint got time to devote to one-to-one training sessions with your dog and just plain one-to-one playing time etc, why own a dog?? Sorry if that seems harsh, but its reality!


Yes, I am with you, the making the time can be hard for families with young children that also demand constant supervision though. They have to make the time somehow to make the training as successful as others. When they can't and then blame the dog, is the thing that annoys me.



> P.S. - I well remember taking my rott to school when my kids were at primary school to pick them up at the gates and got told my dog wasnt welcome and would I refrain from bringing such a breed to the school gates, lol!!


The Rotts I've been met have been fine. You may have hit the problem, that former pupils hang around with "status dogs" and then you have to be told the same (despite your dogs being well behaved and controlled), or the unwanted person who'll appear there seeking to intimidate pupils can't be handled with by the community authorities.


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## Blondie

smudgebiscuit said:


> as with everything in life-different things suite different people (or dogs )
> 
> i was told that the canny collar was amiracle product that would help to stop Molly pulling-likewise with the Halti & dogmatic. We have had her 3 months and have tried the stopping when she pulls approach,turning around the other way,squeaky toy etc and nothing has worked. She can walk to heel-ish at the puppy class & in our garden-but as soon as you get her outside she pulls & fights to get whichever head collar she has on off her face. We have also tried harnesses & she is even worse on those. I'm not getting Molly one of those self correction collars-going to persevere with the stopping & Dogmatic & see how we get on....just wanted to know if anyone had used one.


As I just said before - clicker training?

Back to prong collars, having seen them in use, as I said, it aint pretty to watch them being used on a dog - doubt many people would be able to stand it being used on their dog with problems in the UK, they are much more prolific in the US.


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## RobD-BCactive

Malmum said:


> My fear of other dogs has escalated and with it so has Flynns. Sometimes I think it's us who need to sort ourselves out and not the dog because if I can remain calm so does my boy - unfortunately for him he has an erratic mummy, lol.
> 
> I know it must be awful to have a dog pulling but I think the standing still thing is very good advice, as no dog likes to stand still on a walk. Flynn doesn't pull at all it's just when we see another dog things can go awry and that's because of the fear I feel i'm sure!


Next time with a puppy, get to things like puppy play and get confidence with your dog, not making trouble. You might choose a breed that's generally sociable and not prone to dog aggression issues, to make life easier. I'm assuming you're not really afraid of other peoples dogs and it was more nervousness and anxiety about your dog acting agressively, from my memory of threads in middle of last year. It's amazing how used you get to peaceful coexistance, especially if your walk time coincides with regulars with socialised dogs.



smudgebiscuit said:


> i was told that the canny collar was amiracle product that would help to stop Molly pulling-likewise with the Halti & dogmatic. We have had her 3 months and have tried the stopping when she pulls approach,turning around the other way,squeaky toy etc and nothing has worked. She can walk to heel-ish at the puppy class & in our garden-but as soon as you get her outside she pulls & fights to get whichever head collar she has on off her face


So she can do it! Now it's figuring out how to get her to walk nicely in the other situations, extending the class work and what you've done in the garden. Unfortunately habits are hard to break, starting right is always easier.


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## RobD-BCactive

Ceearott said:


> As I just said before - clicker training?
> 
> Back to prong collars, having seen them in use, as I said, it aint pretty to watch them being used on a dog - doubt many people would be able to stand it being used on their dog with problems in the UK, they are much more prolific in the US.


My favourite Dog Wrestler clip is the one where he takes the Malmute out on a prong collar and gets his sleeve and arm torn to shreds by multiple bites, and then after he admits the prong was a mistake and just making the dog wilder and harder to handle.


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## Blondie

RobD-BCactive said:


> My favourite Dog Wrestler clip is the one where he takes the Malmute out on a prong collar and gets his sleeve and arm torn to shreds by multiple bites, and then after he admits the prong was a mistake and just making the dog wilder and harder to handle.


Yeah, sadly and all too common mistake, wrongly used, these things can feck a dog up for life, even worse than before!!

They should not be used unless person has extensive knowledge of breed concerned, dog concerned, and been taught in correct procedure to use collar.


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## smudgebiscuit

yes we are going to cary on with the dogmatic & stopping routine-until it finally clicks with her ( 3 months in & it hasn't!!) Trouble is-previous owners just let her run around the garden or just let her off leash-she has never properly worn a lead & collar until we got her-so it's a hard habit to break now.....walks with her can be quite miserable depending on how much she fights to get the dogmatic off & how much pulling she does-really does get me down some days


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## Rottiefan

smudgebiscuit said:


> yes we are going to cary on with the dogmatic & stopping routine-until it finally clicks with her ( 3 months in & it hasn't!!) Trouble is-previous owners just let her run around the garden or just let her off leash-she has never properly worn a lead & collar until we got her-so it's a hard habit to break now.....walks with her can be quite miserable depending on how much she fights to get the dogmatic off & how much pulling she does-really does get me down some days


I would try to use the clicker to mark good behaviour on lead, personally. For those dogs that are maybe not understanding what you are doing when you stop/start, a clicker can really make it clear, in my experience. Start with clicking and giving some food every time your dog stops and, preferrably, looks back at you. Then, you can phase out the treats and use continuing to walk as the reward after a click. I used this on one large male Staffy who was a pull-aholic and had never really been trained or motivated before, but this worked well  It also helped to keep him on a long training lead, around 6 feet.


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## Andromeda

I found this yesterday. How teach a dog nice walk on lead: Of course with clicker.
I like an idea of treating a dog - next to your foot.

How to Teach Loose-Leash Walking | Karen Pryor Clickertraining


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## London Dogwalker

I'd of walked out myself. :frown: Why is a reactive dog in a 'regular' dog class for a start? Is this dog trainer a member of any professional association? 

You say you tried it on your leg, why didn't you try it on your neck with someone else pulling it so you couldn't breathe?  Would have been a much better roadtest.

What the trainer hasn't done is get to the root problem of why the behaviour's happening - instead they've tried to take the quick and lazy option of using pain to supress the dog's emotions. Not something to be applauded or commended, or looked up to like some kind of miracle cure. 

The owners need to see a (good) behaviourist, (COAPE or APBC) or have one to one sessions with a good behaviourally knowledgable trainer from the APDT to try and fix this problem. Or they can carry on hurting their dog, it's their choice really isn't it? *shrugs*


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## Malmum

Ceearott said:


> Clicker training may be an option for you, Its hard work and requires patience and dedication but the rewards are great! I plan on clicker training my next pup.


I think I must be thick, lol - really I do, I just can't seem to get the timing right. I bought Don't Shoot The Dog and i've had help from a member on the Mal forum but *still* I can't bet it bl**dy right! 



RobD-BCactive said:


> Next time with a puppy, get to things like puppy play and get confidence with your dog, not making trouble. You might choose a breed that's generally sociable and not prone to dog aggression issues, to make life easier. I'm assuming you're not really afraid of other peoples dogs and it was more nervousness and anxiety about your dog acting agressively, from my memory of threads in middle of last year. It's amazing how used you get to peaceful coexistance, especially if your walk time coincides with regulars with socialised dogs.
> 
> I make Flynn sound like a beast and he's not, he's an absolute angel to walk, walks right by my side nice loose dangly lead, which is very good for a Mal - so i've obviously done something right! :thumbup:
> But as soon as *I* see another dog my stomach sinks and I realise no trainer in the world can help me with that, that is something I need to address with myself. So - my stomach sinks I give that signal to Flynn and he reacts, starts pulling towards the dog, growling and he's a force to be reckoned with honestly. I've always had to deal with Flynn on my own, so no one to give me that little bit of confidence I need. This is something I know i've got to deal with yet everytime I go out I avoid it. It's really not fair on Flynn, he lives with other dogs is good with all of them even the small ones and i'm making him bad outside. I'm a bit of a lost cause and quite honestly live in fear of off lead dogs - the reason the poor boy never goes to parks too.
> One day i'll come to my senses but for now I just choose our walks with care and if I see a dog coming, go the other way! Terrible isn't it? I don't have this fear with any of the others!


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## newfiesmum

Ceearott said:


> Very true, but, to my mind, if you aint got time to devote to one-to-one training sessions with your dog and just plain one-to-one playing time etc, why own a dog?? Sorry if that seems harsh, but its reality! I own five adult rotties, have two teenage daughters, a full-time job and a disabled OH, I still find time to give my dogs invidual walks and attention and training when needed, if I couldnt do this, I wouldnt own 5.
> 
> P.S. - I well remember taking my rott to school when my kids were at primary school to pick them up at the gates and got told my dog wasnt welcome and would I refrain from bringing such a breed to the school gates, lol!!


That is abominable cheek! They may have been within their rights to ask you not to bring him into the school playground, but the gate is on a public pavement. I would have been furious!


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## RobD-BCactive

Malmum said:


> I make Flynn sound like a beast and he's not, he's an absolute angel to walk, walks right by my side nice loose dangly lead, which is very good for a Mal - so i've obviously done something right! :thumbup:
> But as soon as *I* see another dog my stomach sinks and I realise no trainer in the world can help me with that, that is something I need to address with myself.


Exactly but you'ld have a chance to build your confidence then, as at the puppy stage, you can enjoy the play, they can develop a gang of buddies who are happy to see each other out on walks. You'ld get used to expecting no trouble and be more relaxed and have more fun.


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## RobD-BCactive

Malmum said:


> I think I must be thick, lol - really I do, I just can't seem to get the timing right


It's not just you, I know they gave up on them at a training club because too many could not get precise enough timing. For those who can develop the nack it's great, because the mark means not having to rush with the rewards which can require more coordination.


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## Malmum

RobD-BCactive said:


> Exactly but you'ld have a chance to build your confidence then, as at the puppy stage, you can enjoy the play, they can develop a gang of buddies who are happy to see each other out on walks. You'ld get used to expecting no trouble and be more relaxed and have more fun.


You're so right. Flynn is due his second hip replacement in a couple of weeks, so it'll be crate rest for three months (the reason we fell back on our training) once he has fully recovered from that i'm taking him (and me ) training again. I won't give up on Flynn and I will get more positive about myself. I think once I see Flynn can interact with other dogs - even if not off lead - i'll feel more confident all round. 

I will post when we've been and it should be good news - well it *will* be!


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Unfortunately the prong collar attracts a lot of emotive comments, and more than its fair share of "experts" spouting half truths they're read on a random website. It's a real shame the amountof guilt forced on prong collar users and potential users when it could actually make significant improvements to the quality of both the handlers and dogs lives.

There's no shame in using a prong collar, there shouldn't be an imposed sense of guilt by detractors of dubious "knowledge" and "experience". Personally I'd never use a headcollar as an alternative to a prong collar, and R+ with a bag of bribes and a clicker is not as effective as some might make out too. If you're sticking with a failing method for fear of what other people think then that's actually cruel, not your choice of equipment.

regards,

Austin


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## Rottiefan

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Unfortunately the prong collar attracts a lot of emotive comments, and more than its fair share of "experts" spouting half truths they're read on a random website. It's a real shame the amountof guilt forced on prong collar users and potential users when it could actually make significant improvements to the quality of both the handlers and dogs lives.
> 
> There's no shame in using a prong collar, there shouldn't be an imposed sense of guilt by detractors of dubious "knowledge" and "experience". Personally I'd never use a headcollar as an alternative to a prong collar, and *R+ with a bag of bribes and a clicker is not as effective as some might make out too*. If you're sticking with a failing method for fear of what other people think then that's actually cruel, not your choice of equipment.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


That's where you're going wrong, most likely. Food is not used as a bribe, it's used as a reward or, more importantly, a reinforcer. If you use food as a bribe, you are not training well. Clicker training is a brilliant form of training as it can pinpoint the exact moments of good behaviour. But to be good, you need to be able to read and anticipate behaviour well enough, so as to time right.

I have no doubt that in the hands of a professional who knows what they are doing, prong collars can work 'wonders'- but to what ends? Most dogs I see taking a correction exhibit immediate signs of stress- like those seen when a dog is shocked- and that is something I can do without. I find it much more fun, interesting and rewarding for me to be able to read body language and teach a dog something new- yes, we can teach without pain, stress and intimidation- rather than coerce a dog into doing something just because they don't want to receive a correction for the rest of their lives.

On my profile, under threads, there is a title called 'An absolute idiot', which has a link to a video on You Tube. I'd like to know your thoughts about this man's (a 'master trainer' by all accounts) training style.


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## newfiesmum

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Unfortunately the prong collar attracts a lot of emotive comments, and more than its fair share of "experts" spouting half truths they're read on a random website. It's a real shame the amountof guilt forced on prong collar users and potential users when it could actually make significant improvements to the quality of both the handlers and dogs lives.
> 
> There's no shame in using a prong collar, there shouldn't be an imposed sense of guilt by detractors of dubious "knowledge" and "experience". Personally I'd never use a headcollar as an alternative to a prong collar, and R+ with a bag of bribes and a clicker is not as effective as some might make out too. If you're sticking with a failing method for fear of what other people think then that's actually cruel, not your choice of equipment.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


One doesn't need to be an expert to know that something is painful. If you have found clicker training to be ineffective, you are doing it wrong and if you have found a headcollar to be damaging to the dog, then you are using that wrong as well.

Not many in the UK would avoid prong collars for fear of what others might say; they avoid them because they care about their dogs' welfare.


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## Andromeda

Elements of Classical Conditioning in the Little Albert Experiment:

YouTube - Baby Albert Experiments

*It isn't nice to watch!!! Upsetting *

More to read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Albert_experiment

And the same happen to your dog when you are using a prong collar.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Rottiefan said:


> That's where you're going wrong, most likely. Food is not used as a bribe, it's used as a reward or, more importantly, a reinforcer. If you use food as a bribe, you are not training well. Clicker training is a brilliant form of training as it can pinpoint the exact moments of good behaviour. *But to be good, you need to be able to read and anticipate behaviour well enough, so as to time right.*
> 
> I have no doubt that in the hands of a professional who knows what they are doing, prong collars can work 'wonders'- but to what ends? *Most dogs I see taking a correction exhibit immediate signs of stress*- like those seen when a dog is shocked- and that is something I can do without. I find it much more fun, interesting and rewarding for me to be able to read body language and teach a dog something new- yes, we can teach without pain, stress and intimidation- rather than coerce a dog into doing something just because they don't want to receive a correction for the rest of their lives.
> 
> On my profile, under threads, there is a title called 'An absolute idiot', which has a link to a video on You Tube. I'd like to know your thoughts about this man's (a 'master trainer' by all accounts) training style.


Question: Is your method successful for 100% of dogs and handlers?

Question: Where do you see these dogs taking corrections, and how many?

regards,

Austin


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## JoinTheChase

London Dogwalker said:


> You say you tried it on your leg, why didn't you try it on your neck with someone else pulling it so you couldn't breathe?  Would have been a much better roadtest.


I was going to ask this. I can well understand the hardships of a dog pulling. Luckily, my boy took to a Halti really quickly. But I couldn't do something that could harm a dog. I accept that the metal is shorter and not as harsh as a prong collar, but presumably if the dog didn't take the hint and kept pulling, it could really hurt itself... Not for me, I don't think...


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> One doesn't need to be an expert to know that something is painful. If you have found clicker training to be ineffective, you are doing it wrong and if you have found a headcollar to be damaging to the dog, then you are using that wrong as well.
> 
> Not many in the UK would avoid prong collars for fear of what others might say; they avoid them because they care about their dogs' welfare.


You're making a lot of assumptions and unfortunately you do need to have some context to make an informed opinion. With that in mind:

1) re: not needing to be an expert to know..... is an injection painful?

2) re: clickers....what's the chances of someone who isn't co-ordinated enough to catch a ball, or clap in time to a beat will be effective with a clicker?

3) re: headcollars...there are multiple posts within this forum alone giving examples of headcollar injury, stress and misaplication.

4) re: prong collars... yes, they do. No, that's your bias and speculation.

regards,

Austin


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## Andromeda

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> You're making a lot of assumptions and unfortunately you do need to have some context to make an informed opinion. With that in mind:
> 
> 1) re: not needing to be an expert to know..... is an injection painful?


Is an injection apply on daily basics?



LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> 2) re: clickers....what's the chances of someone who isn't co-ordinated enough to catch a ball, or clap in time to a beat will be effective with a clicker?


That why you can do some exercise to improve you ability to click on time. Really simply.



LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> 3) re: headcollars...there are multiple posts within this forum alone giving examples of headcollar injury, stress and misaplication.


I do agree. And more important, a dogs prone to do unexpected jump can easily break a neck.


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## davidc

smudgebiscuit said:


> last night at our puppy class the trainer used a self correction collar on a dog as it kept barking aggresively & lunging at all the other dogs. This behaviour has gone on for most of the 8 weeks we have been going and the owner was very upset by it. At first glance i was appalled by the collar as it looked quite barbaric & i wasn't keen on it being used on the dog.....but as soon as it was put on the dog he was behaving differently-no barking,lunging or pulling it's owner over. He just seemed calmer-tail was wagging & he was totally focussed on his owner-which he has never been at any of the classes or at home according to the owner. The trainer showed me the collar close up & it was little metal flaps-not hooks that close in if the dog pulls-i put it round my leg to see if it hurt & it didn't-just tightened a bit. So i tried it on Molly-my lord what a diffference-she didn't pull at all( she usually behaves well in class then as soon as we get to the door she pulls like mad & lunges forward) i walked her up & down outside for 10mins & she was just different,relaxed & a joy on the lead. So was just wondering if anyone else has either used one or has any experience with them-please don't be horrible & say i was cruel to my Molly-just tried it to see how they worked.


In Heaton Park recently, my sister noticed a discarded or lost correction collar, but instead of prongs or anything, it shoots water, no idea if it was working or not though.


----------



## newfiesmum

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> You're making a lot of assumptions and unfortunately you do need to have some context to make an informed opinion. With that in mind:
> 
> 1) re: not needing to be an expert to know..... is an injection painful?
> 
> 2) re: clickers....what's the chances of someone who isn't co-ordinated enough to catch a ball, or clap in time to a beat will be effective with a clicker?
> 
> 3) re: headcollars...there are multiple posts within this forum alone giving examples of headcollar injury, stress and misaplication.
> 
> 4) re: prong collars... yes, they do. No, that's your bias and speculation.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


1) Sometimes, but I fail to see the significance in relation to this post. Some vets are better at it than others. My vet managed to give my dog a bloodtest and he never even noticed, and he is not the bravest soul. Are you saying we should not vaccinate our dogs because it might be painful? Some slight pain inflicted for _the dog's_ benefit is not the same as something done for _our_ benefit and laziness.

2) Quite a lot actually. A clicker is under your thumb and the reaction is instantaneous, at the right time. Clapping hands may not be, and I see no reason why someone who cannot catch a ball should fail with a clicker. Different thing entirely.

3) As said before, if a headcollar is causing injury to the dog's neck, it is not being used properly.

4) No real dog lover would use these barbaric instruments. Yes, I am biased and prejudice against anything that is going to hurt my dog, or anyone else's dog for that matter. These things should be banned, along with shock collars, electronic fences, anti-bark collars and any of the other instruments designed to cause pain to an innocent creature.


----------



## newfiesmum

davidc said:


> In Heaton Park recently, my sister noticed a discarded or lost correction collar, but instead of prongs or anything, it shoots water, no idea if it was working or not though.


It may have contained water, but they are designed to contain citronella spray right up the dog's nose. Go smell a lemon and see how powerful that is, then imagine a spray of that up the nose of a creature whose sense of smell is thousands of times more accute than ours. I would have discarded it as well.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> 1) Sometimes, but I fail to see the significance in relation to this post. Some vets are better at it than others. My vet managed to give my dog a bloodtest and he never even noticed, and he is not the bravest soul. Are you saying we should not vaccinate our dogs because it might be painful? Some slight pain inflicted for _the dog's_ benefit is not the same as something done for _our_ benefit and laziness.
> 
> 2) Quite a lot actually. A clicker is under your thumb and the reaction is instantaneous, at the right time. Clapping hands may not be, and I see no reason why someone who cannot catch a ball should fail with a clicker. Different thing entirely.
> 
> 3) As said before, if a headcollar is causing injury to the dog's neck, it is not being used properly.
> 
> 4) No real dog lover would use these barbaric instruments. Yes, I am biased and prejudice against anything that is going to hurt my dog, or anyone else's dog for that matter. These things should be banned, along with shock collars, electronic fences, anti-bark collars and any of the other instruments designed to cause pain to an innocent creature.


1) Pain is subjective, actually sticking a needle into a person or animal should, in theory, cause an amount of pain. Now, a blunted piece of wire 50 times thicker that rests against the skin according to you causes pain, yet a needle doesn't. Ok, so slightpain for benefit is ok if it benefits the dog. Who's to say the use of a prong collar doesn't actually benefit the dog?

2) Co-ordination. Some people have none or very little. A clicker in their hands would be next to useless.

3) It's not just the neck, it's rubbing off fur, causing callus and even bleeding, pulling into the eyes, causing anxiety, making the dog restless and stressed etc etc etc....a headcollar is a dangerous tool, but it looks friendly, so it's ok then?

4) I love dogs. I've used prong collars. You're assuming it would hurt your dog when there's every chance it wouldn't, so your bias is baseless. However, as seen in 3 we can prove a headcollar is both dangerous and causes pain, yet you're ok with them. Very odd.

So, would you please explain to me how a prong collar works, and how a pinch collar works, and how exactly they are barbaric and cause pain?

regards,

Austin


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## JoinTheChase

newfiesmum said:


> It may have contained water, but they are designed to contain citronella spray right up the dog's nose. Go smell a lemon and see how powerful that is, then imagine a spray of that up the nose of a creature whose sense of smell is thousands of times more accute than ours. I would have discarded it as well.


The way I've seen them used, they are placed to the side of the dogs face, so it doesn't spray directly into nose/eyes/ears but is close enough for the sound/feel to be a shock, and the smell isn't direct, but close enough for the dog to find it unpleasant so it deters the behaviour rather than being mean to them.


----------



## newfiesmum

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> 1) Pain is subjective, actually sticking a needle into a person or animal should, in theory, cause an amount of pain. Now, a blunted piece of wire 50 times thicker that rests against the skin according to you causes pain, yet a needle doesn't. Ok, so slightpain for benefit is ok if it benefits the dog. Who's to say the use of a prong collar doesn't actually benefit the dog?
> 
> 2) Co-ordination. Some people have none or very little. A clicker in their hands would be next to useless.
> 
> 3) It's not just the neck, it's rubbing off fur, causing callus and even bleeding, pulling into the eyes, causing anxiety, making the dog restless and stressed etc etc etc....a headcollar is a dangerous tool, but it looks friendly, so it's ok then?
> 
> 4) I love dogs. I've used prong collars. You're assuming it would hurt your dog when there's every chance it wouldn't, so your bias is baseless. However, as seen in 3 we can prove a headcollar is both dangerous and causes pain, yet you're ok with them. Very odd.
> 
> So, would you please explain to me how a prong collar works, and how a pinch collar works, and how exactly they are barbaric and cause pain?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


1) The point of a prong collar, is to stop the dog from pulling. If he pulls, the prongs stick into his neck and that hurts. Also, the neck is an extremely delicate are so not only does it cause injury in the way of broken skin, it can also cause damage inside the neck. I am not a vet nor medically trained, but some on here are and I am sure will explain in more detail. a hypodermic needle, used properly by a good practitioner, will not hurt. How can a prong collar be for the benefit of the dog? Please explain in what way the dog could possibly benefit for such an implement? It will stop him pulling so that _you_ can enjoy his walks. It is certainly not going to make _him_ enjoy his walks, quite the opposite.

2) if it is true that some people have such poor co-ordination that they would be unable to use a clicker, there were other humane and nice ways to train a dog before clickers were invented.

3) A properly designed and fitted headcollar does none of those things. I don't know what sort of cheap rubbish you have had on your dogs, but the dogmatic, which one of my dogs wears as back up because he is much stronger than me, never rides up the eyes, never cuts in, and will certainly never cause bleeding. If it was uncomfortable the dog would try to get it off instead of walking along nicely with his head in the air.

4) See 3.

A prong collar and a pinch collar are the same thing as far as I know. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. You may have one of these things about, since you seem so fond of them, so I would suggest you fit it around your neck, tie the lead to a lampost or get someone to hold it, and pull like crazy. That should answer your question. Anything with prongs on the end that digs into a delicate area of the skin is going to hurt, that should be obvious to anybody.



JoinTheChase said:


> The way I've seen them used, they are placed to the side of the dogs face, so it doesn't spray directly into nose/eyes/ears but is close enough for the sound/feel to be a shock, and the smell isn't direct, but close enough for the dog to find it unpleasant so it deters the behaviour rather than being mean to them.


But it is being mean to them. The smell alone would be awful for a dog without having the stuff sprayed in his face. They are designed to fit under the dog's nose, not to the side. I was advised to get one to stop Ferdie humping everything that moved. This was before I knew any better and when I saw where it was supposed to go I didn't use it.


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## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> 1) Pain is subjective, actually sticking a needle into a person or animal should, in theory, cause an amount of pain. Now, a blunted piece of wire 50 times thicker that rests against the skin according to you causes pain, yet a needle doesn't. Ok, so slightpain for benefit is ok if it benefits the dog. Who's to say the use of a prong collar doesn't actually benefit the dog?


Please consider AVSAB: Guidelines on the Use of Punishment for Dealing with Behavior Problems in Animals

An injection for a vaccination may cause no pain if it misses a nerve, and there are good reasons for such medical procedures, they are done in such a way to minimise the risk of adverse consequences.

People rush to use aversive methods to punish behaviours, in an attempt to stamp them out far too readily, and without regard to the risk of adverse outcomes.

There are far better ways of dealing with issues, and the aversive quck fixes suffer from short term effectiveness and not really teaching the good behavour you do want eg) controlled on leash walking, nearly as directly as the positive-reinforcement methods.

Anyone using aversive devices, mentioned in this thread, risk seriously damaging their dog psychologically even if not physically, and then requiring recovery and rehabilitations.


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## Rottiefan

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Question: Is your method successful for 100% of dogs and handlers?
> 
> Question: Where do you see these dogs taking corrections, and how many?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


I don't have just one method- I use many different methods catered for the dog. However, all of these are positive reinforcement/negative punishment based. Positive reinforcement techniques can be used by anyone- from experts to supervised infants. Of course, I'm not saying that everyone can do it easily, as there are many people who need a lot of practice to get the feeling of it (timing etc), and it depends on the case in hand, but R+ training is generally easy compared to old-style methods of 'training'.

I have seen many dogs being corrected using check/prong collars, e-collars, as well as normal flat collars. Everywhere from on TV to in the local park, administered by 'trainers' and 'dog psychologists' to inexperienced owners. Usually, if the dog responds to one or two, people leave it at that until the dog does the undesired behaviour again. However, like in the video I asked to check out (and which you have said nothing about- please take a look), there are people that will correct continuously because the dog isn't paying any attention to them (apparently because the dog is 'stubborn' or 'dominant' in many cases), with those corrections getting harder, and harder, and harder.

Whilst you are correct that people can have shocking coordination, making clicker work hard for them, it is not a difficult skill to acquire if you put the practice in. I have yet to meet anyone who hasn't been able to use one at all. However, if they want to train but are not used to one, they are not essential and using a buzz word like 'YES!' or just treating without a marker can be done too.


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## tripod

Welcome to the forum LuvMyDog_Worldwide 

I am presuming that you are the same Luv My Dog Worldwide that supplies Herm Sprenger collars, a manufacturer largely associated with the production of prong collars and other metal collars? 
As such I feel that your comment referring to the emotive and inexperienced perception of those on this forum is a little hypocritical - you can hardly be expected to offer objective analysis.

I have worked 'in dogs' a very long time and have seen and even trialed the use of many different pieces of training equipment.
Tightening collars are tools that I am familiar with, in various forms.

I choose not to use aversives that lead to pain, discomfort, intimidation in training and behaviour work. But I am not totally adverse to the possibility that I may need to employ such methodology in some case some day. Over 1000 dogs in and I have yet to reach into that dark corner of my tool box.
I have been able to successfully choose alternatives that do not rely on aversives.

You are right that the degree to which an animal responds to an aversive varies and is subjective, but choosing to use tools designed to be aversive from the get-go is abhorrent to me. 
Prong collars and other metal collars that tighten are designed to cause discomfort. This is how they work - the animal avoids a behaviour associated with the sensation of the tightening on the neck.

Whether the aversive causes pain, discomfort, avoidance, fear etc. is not the issue - its designed to be unpleasant.

It is possible to teach leash walking, for example, without the use of such unpleasantness.

Saying all that is must be understood that prong collars are probably far less harmful, from a physiological point of view than tradiational choke collars. There are two contributors to this; one that prong collars are designed to have limited tightening action and two, that they are so aversive dogs are reluctant to push into them as much as they do with other tightening collars.

One of the points Luv my Dog brings up in relation to clicker training is a pet owner's ability to juggle pieces of equipment. I would suggest that if this is beyond their abilities that it is highly irresponsible to give them a piece of equipment that in the wrong hands can cause serious physical and behavioural damage.

Using the term 'bribery' in relation to clicker training further highlights your lack of objectivity and indeed your lack of understanding of the way in which animals learn. Yes, there are some who do not use rewards and other consequences properly during training but the baiss of clicker training is so far from mere bribery that the use of the term is laughable.

Do I think that there is absolutely no place whatsoever for prong collars, no. And I know quite a few esteemed dog friendly dog trainers who would agree but to further muddy the waters means that we will never be able to truly discuss such topics objectively.

There are a number of studies that have analysed the use of avserives in dog training, and a couple of these have included reference to the use of prong and choke collars. 
Such as: 
http://vet.osu.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/behavior/trainingArticle.pdf
http://www.azs.no/artikler/art_training_methods.pdf
ScienceDirect - Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research : Dominance in domestic dogs-useful construct or bad habit?
http://elib.tiho-hannover.de/dissertations/salgirliy_ws08.pdf

In reference to a point brought up earlier, prong collars are the very least suitable training tools for use with aggressive, reactive dogs (I think referred to in this thread as 'red zone' which is open to much (mis)interpretation). Even the person credited with coining that non-sensical term, Cesar Milan, has been known to remove such collars when faced with dogs he describes in this way.

An understanding of classical conditioning tells us that using pain, discomfort in such situations is detrimental to behaviour modification and downright dangerous. These collars, as such, contribute heavily to the fallout associated with the use of aversives due to their design.

Luv my Dog, you bring up head collars which I don't believe to be a particularly safer or more effective option with a lot of dogs.
We have to remember that they were also originally designed to be aversive in that the blurb stated that the pressure that the head collar puts on the dog's muzzle and back of his neck are supposed to mimic such behaviours as muzzle grabbing in dogs that lead to a freezing response in the grab-ee.

There are some dogs that head collars work well for after careful desensitisation work but there are far more downsides to their use, including physiological trauma and as such I do not generally recommend them. I would have been a big user of head collars formerly.
The same of course could be said about prong collars - I have seen some dogs that these collars appear to work well for with no evidence of fallout or physiological damage. But I have no intention of recommending equipment that by design is aversive.

For discussion of such topics that are being described as 'emotive' its important that we stay with the facts so as to learn, develop our understanding and ultimately improve the lives of pets and their people


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## OllieBob

smudgebiscuit said:


> last night at our puppy class the trainer used a self correction collar on a dog as it kept barking aggresively & lunging at all the other dogs. This behaviour has gone on for most of the 8 weeks we have been going and the owner was very upset by it. At first glance i was appalled by the collar as it looked quite barbaric & i wasn't keen on it being used on the dog.....but as soon as it was put on the dog he was behaving differently-no barking,lunging or pulling it's owner over. He just seemed calmer-tail was wagging & he was totally focussed on his owner-which he has never been at any of the classes or at home according to the owner. The trainer showed me the collar close up & it was little metal flaps-not hooks that close in if the dog pulls-i put it round my leg to see if it hurt & it didn't-just tightened a bit.


Was this the collar? Herm Sprenger Nylon Prong / Pinch Collar Cover XL 19" on eBay (end time 13-Apr-11 21:34:33 BST)


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## Rottiefan

OllieBob said:


> Was this the collar? Herm Sprenger Nylon Prong / Pinch Collar Cover XL 19" on eBay (end time 13-Apr-11 21:34:33 BST)


Oh dear. So they disguise a prong collar as a conventional flat collar.


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## newfiesmum

Rottiefan said:


> Oh dear. So they disguise a prong collar as a conventional flat collar.


I think that add is just for a cover, not the actual collar. For people who don't want the rest of the world to know that they are using one of these vicious things. Like the proverbial plain brown envelope! Sad


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## Rottiefan

newfiesmum said:


> I think that add is just for a cover, not the actual collar. For people who don't want the rest of the world to know that they are using one of these vicious things. Like the proverbial plain brown envelope! Sad


Yeah, that's what I meant. Very sad!


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## keirk

newfiesmum said:


> For people who don't want the rest of the world to know that they are using one of these vicious things.


There is nothing "vicious" about a prong collar - its an inanimate object - the collar itself isnt deliberately cruel. Its the hand on the lead that has that ability not the collar. You can very very cruel with a plain flat collar if you wanted to be.

Think how emotive your comment is in relation to the OP. You are basically saying making your dog wear a prong collar make you a cruel person. It doesn't.

But if wearing one of these collars is difference between staying at home and enjoying regular exercise or given up to a shelter because they cant be walked, I know which I would recommend.


----------



## keirk

RobD-BCactive said:


> The problem with it is, it's possibly inhibiting the symptoms; rather than truly addressing the underlying cause. A well socialised pup can look forward to off leash play in public, whilst one controlled via some device won't enjoy such freedom.


But you can't try to address the underlying cause if you can't get past the symptoms.


----------



## newfiesmum

keirk said:


> There is nothing "vicious" about a prong collar - its an inanimate object - the collar itself isnt deliberately cruel. Its the hand on the lead that has that ability not the collar. You can very very cruel with a plain flat collar if you wanted to be.
> 
> Think how emotive your comment is in relation to the OP. You are basically saying making your dog wear a prong collar make you a cruel person. It doesn't.
> 
> But if wearing one of these collars is difference between staying at home and enjoying regular exercise or given up to a shelter because they cant be walked, I know which I would recommend.


No, the collar itself is not vicious, nor is the human on the end of the leash. It is the dog himself who pulls and causes the pain - so let's blame the dog, shall we? You just sit him down and explain to him that if he pulls it is going to damage his neck and he will understand.

There are lots of more humane ways to stop a dog from pulling. Having had my arm broken by a dog who pulled me over, I know. Did I want my arm broken again? No. Did I want to injure my dog? Certainly not, which is why I got advice about training him not to pull. He was about eight years old at the time and had been allowed to pull all his life, my fault entirely, but it still worked with a bit of time and patience. Of course I could have put a prong collar on him and that would have been the job done in two minutes.

Perhaps, according to you then, I chose the wrong path?


----------



## keirk

newfiesmum said:


> No, the collar itself is not vicious, nor is the human on the end of the leash. It is the dog himself who pulls and causes the pain - so let's blame the dog, shall we? You just sit him down and explain to him that if he pulls it is going to damage his neck and he will understand.
> 
> There are lots of more humane ways to stop a dog from pulling. Having had my arm broken by a dog who pulled me over, I know. Did I want my arm broken again? No. Did I want to injure my dog? Certainly not, which is why I got advice about training him not to pull. He was about eight years old at the time and had been allowed to pull all his life, my fault entirely, but it still worked with a bit of time and patience. Of course I could have put a prong collar on him and that would have been the job done in two minutes.
> 
> Perhaps, according to you then, I chose the wrong path?


Goodness me. What on earth are you talking about?

No one wants to injury their pets? Of course they dont. But look at the bigger picture.

If it meant the difference between home or a shelter because training, management, other devices didnt work (due lack of skill / knowledge or whatever) then a prong collar would be an option.


----------



## RobD-BCactive

keirk said:


> No one wants to injury their pets? Of course they dont. But look at the bigger picture.
> 
> If it meant the difference between home or a shelter because training, management, other devices didnt work (due lack of skill / knowledge or whatever) then a prong collar would be an option.


They may not want to, or intend to, but such devices are misused. They are sold as a quick fix, achieve some immediate effect and people are impressed. Then the aversive effect wears off, so greater intensity is applied and now there's a good chance of injury. The apparent solution means the root causes are not addressed, the dog completes class and the trainer just moves on to a new intake.

The thing is your "If" is hypothetical. You're ignoring in justifying a punishment based device, that there are better truly effective alternatives. Seeking to justify a gamble on a punishment based method despite warnings against such by bodies like the AVSAB (already linked to in this thread) by sophistry.

As for addressing "symptoms" to allow tackling the root of the problem, that's actually not the case. You're advocating applying a painful stimulus, to a young dog that is likely unable to deal with the confined class situation (due to lack of socialisation and is overwhelmed and fearful).

*Adding pain is totally disgusting and barbaric and totally stupid!*

Did you see the DW get bitten last night, just after he advised "correction" to the owner, "to disagree with the growling"? Adding pain (with flight option prevented) did nothing to resolve the situation! Before that an unsociable dog was lead up to a stooge Bull dog in a prong collar, which whilst still was glaring at the oncoming dog under rehabilitation, some man handling was reqired by the Prong collared dog's handler to avoid loss of control in the situation. That is total incompetence, but what the Prong/E-collar mindset leads to.

The responsible thing would be to refer the dog to rehabilitation, and readmit it to a later class when it is going to be able to learn properly (see Chester making freiends).

There's been well thought out, educated answers to this, so I'm surprised to find such arguments still rumbling. After all someone said recently "whilst I can believe such methods work for you, because dog's will basically put up with any old crap so long as you feed them".


----------



## newfiesmum

keirk said:


> Goodness me. What on earth are you talking about?
> 
> No one wants to injury their pets? Of course they dont. But look at the bigger picture.
> 
> If it meant the difference between home or a shelter because training, management, other devices didnt work (due lack of skill / knowledge or whatever) *then a prong collar would be an option.*




Not to me it wouldn't. I would far rather have risked getting my arm broken again than put one of these things on a dog who is a known puller. Not only will it injure the dog, but if he gets the idea that his owner is causing the pain, he will most likely turn into a biter as well.

Lots of dog owners lack skill or knowledge. What they should be doing is getting help from someone who knows what they are doing, or reading books, or coming on forums such as this for assistance. If they cannot be bothered to do some research and find out how to train the dog themselves, their dog is probably better off in a shelter.


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## keirk

> You're advocating applying a painful stimulus,


Why does the use of a prong collar have to equal pain? Used correctly they apply pressure to the which the release technically is a negative reward. Yes used incorrectly they could be abusive - yet so could a plain flat collar.

I'm not advocating prong collars nor any type of punishment based training, personally I think we have a responsibility to use the least aversive methods available to us to change our dogs behaviour.

Yet the emotive negative type language used to discuss such subjects does nothing to promote healthy discussion / debate / education.



> a young dog that is likely unable to deal with the confined class situation (due to lack of socialisation and is overwhelmed and fearful).


The fact of the matter is accurately determining the underlying motivation for a behaviour requires specialist expertise, yet you've managed to come a conclusion based solely on one sentence from the OP. Why would you baselessly dismiss the recommendation of a professional trainer?


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## Andromeda

keirk said:


> Why does the use of a prong collar have to equal pain? Used correctly they apply pressure to the which the release technically is a negative reward.


So why instead of using prong collar not to use a flat one. Just one size to small?



keirk said:


> Why would you baselessly dismiss the recommendation of a professional trainer?


If I feel that I can use different method I would avoid to listen a professional trainer. By the way...
How do you think how many of trainers know how correctly use a prong collar?


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## tripod

keirk said:


> Why does the use of a prong collar have to equal pain? *Used correctly they apply pressure to the which the release technically is a negative reward.*


Used correctly they involve positive punishment and negative reinforcement - that is very very very different from the term 'negative reward'.

I agree that the least aversive methodology should be employed and that emotive language is out (see my earlier post) but I also hope that we can deal with facts.


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## newfiesmum

keirk said:


> The fact of the matter is accurately determining the underlying motivation for a behaviour requires specialist expertise, yet you've managed to come a conclusion based solely on one sentence from the OP. *Why would you baselessly dismiss the recommendation of a professional trainer?*




Perhaps because anybody can set up training classes and call themselves a professional trainer. I don't think much of a so-called professional trainer who would recommend a prong collar, especially in a class situation where the dog is more likely to be stimulated by the presence of other dogs. A trainer should be able to control the situation without the use of gadgets.


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## RobD-BCactive

keirk said:


> Why does the use of a prong collar have to equal pain?


Because they have dirty great spikes on them, to simulate a discipline "bite" as one apologist for such explained. Sharp teeth, physical contact in small area is aversive and that is intensified by "checks". Dogs who nip, can provoke yelps for example, so Sherlock Holmes is not required on this one...

People who use Prong collars then "check" to correct the dog, and that then causes pain in an attempt to physically subdue them by positive-punishment & negative-reinforcement (as nicely explained by tripod).


> The fact of the matter is accurately determining the underlying motivation for a behaviour requires specialist expertise, yet you've managed to come a conclusion based solely on one sentence from the OP. Why would you baselessly dismiss the recommendation of a professional trainer?


Because the trainer had the dog in class for 8 weeks, and then came out with an aversive solution. If he was a behaviourist, he would have referred the case to himself rather than persist in keeping the disruption in class.

The class was not the right place, the dog should have been referred or steps taken to avoid the non-confident dog being other threshold and thus not learning. Let's face it, if it were really a good solution, why did the trainer wait so long? It smacks of desperation.


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## Rottiefan

If an owner is down in the dumps about their dog pulling/being inattentive on lead, and think that the only option is a prong collar, it will make a difference and the owner may have happier walks. Hey, the dog may even have a happier life in the greater context of things. But that doesn't mean the dog enjoys going on walks.

What bugs me is when people who should know better and have an interest in dog training still use prong collars just because they're quick fixes. I can excuse an owner who is inexperienced, but a 'professional trainer' using one...I lose all respect. 

It's just lazy dog training, with the dog receiving the brunt of everything and not really learning anything positive. 

So @Keirk- tell us why you prefer to use prong collars (I'm guessing you do) over other positive training methods?


----------



## RobD-BCactive

Andromeda said:


> If I feel that I can use different method I would avoid to listen a professional trainer. By the way...
> How do you think how many of trainers know how correctly use a prong collar?


Exactly and this was touted as a new kinder alternative not a Prong, so probably *no experience*.

I've seen positive-reinforcement based training degenerate into people man handling over-excited dogs, and resorting to hefty disciplinary checks in state of frustration. There's no way, such people are safe to use devices which require "technique" to be used safely, correctly and unemotionally; yet they would undoubtedly feel well qualified.


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## keirk

Rottiefan said:


> So @Keirk- tell us why you prefer to use prong collars (I'm guessing you do) over other positive training methods?


I don't use one, nor do I have any need to, nor I would I consider using one as my timing is no where near precise enough to apply aversives in a way that would aid learning.

And I suppose this is my point in all this. When training (or discussing training) we should strive to maintain objectivity, not just label others wrong / cruel / having no experience / desperate etc etc - it doesn't help anyone.


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## newfiesmum

keirk said:


> I don't use one, nor do I have any need to, nor I would I consider using one as my timing is no where near precise enough to *apply aversives in a way that would aid learning. *
> 
> And I suppose this is my point in all this. When training (or discussing training) we should strive to maintain objectivity, not just label others wrong / cruel / having no experience / desperate etc etc - it doesn't help anyone.


Aversives never aid learning. They are just a quick fix method which controls the behaviour that one time, it does not last.


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## RobD-BCactive

keirk said:


> When training (or discussing training) we should strive to maintain objectivity


That's what people were doing, with many temperate and objective responses. It is just not the opinions the apologists for "prong collars" want to hear.

So then we got this post, "whingeing"!


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Unfortunately the prong collar attracts a lot of emotive comments, and more than its fair share of "experts" spouting half truths they're read on a random website.
> ...
> There's no shame in using a prong collar, there shouldn't be an imposed sense of guilt by detractors of dubious "knowledge" and "experience"


This is classic, oh dear we are losing the reasoned argument, so we'll try to discredit what people have said, rubbishing them. There's been a pattern of this in other threads, by minority opinion personalising and labelling, rather than providing good sources to back up their views. People do that, because they are losing the argument, not because they have a good case to present.

Despite some of the responses being posted by experienced behavourists, or echooing sources like AVSAB, clearly explaining why Postive-Punishment tends to be overused, ineffective, risky and hard to get right. They just selectively dismiss some opinions, in the fallacy that they can ignore and deflect the real weighty blows.

There is a shame in using a Prong Collar, everyone tempted to display such devices has a right to know, that many other dog owners and walkers will totally despise them for using such a device.


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## gizzmo341

if your trainner put a prong collar on a dog and has not shown them how to use it propperly and it was not a last resort, i would be looking for a new trainer. there are 100's of ways to carm a aggrissive dog try them first my dog pulls on the lead an i am slowly training out of her but in the mean time on walks i use a head collar it pulls the dogs head down when they pull


if you want to see how much that collar hurts up dog put it on you on a senivite part ie top of you arm near you arm pit or you thigh or neck and if it hurts you before you put it on your dog


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## Rottiefan

keirk said:


> I don't use one, nor do I have any need to, nor I would I consider using one as my timing is no where near precise enough to apply aversives in a way that would aid learning.
> 
> And I suppose this is my point in all this. When training (or discussing training) we should strive to maintain objectivity, not just label others wrong / cruel / having no experience / desperate etc etc - it doesn't help anyone.


I am being completely objective in saying that prong collars are harmful and I think anyone that uses them are not trying hard enough to work on other positive training methods. This is known with the help of numerous scientific research studies and investigations that have demonstrated a significantly disadvantageous result for using aversive training methods over positive reinforcement training methodology.

What I think it comes down to, honestly, is laziness and lack of knowledge. People want quick fixes now, now, now for a whole host of behaviours, and the truth is, it takes a lot of time and effort to solve many behaviours. That said, using positive methods correctly, some behaviours can change incredibly quickly too. It depends on the individual dog.

But many people who are having trouble with their dogs just want the undesirable behaviours to be fixed immediately and so the quickest option is by way of a prong/choke collar, or even an e-collar, because we know they inhibit behaviours.

Trouble is, anyone getting a dog who doesn't want to get into training and behaviour should not be suitable to own a dog, period, IMO. We can have so much fun training and rehabilitating dogs, using positive methods, but those who have dogs with 'problems' but are not interested in the training side of things have been very naive and irresponsible and, to confirm this, use methods that are not in the dog's best interests. :thumbdown:


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## gizzmo341

have you owners of the dog that lunges tried: 
having him netured
incressing his walks
clicker training
a lower energy food
if staffie - no dry food ( saffies can't digest it properly)
food without colors or beef or pork
a diffrent traininer (new ideas, diffrent people might help)
one-to one trainer
find a closed space and run him ragged then slowly introduce a CARM dog

introduceing a dog to other dog at 2 years old is a lot harder than at 8-16 weeks old


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## RobD-BCactive

Rottiefan said:


> Trouble is, anyone getting a dog who doesn't want to get into training and behaviour should not be suitable to own a dog, period, IMO. We can have so much fun training and rehabilitating dogs, using positive methods, but those who have dogs with 'problems' but are not interested in the training side of things have been very naive and irresponsible and, to confirm this, use methods that are not in the dog's best interests. :thumbdown:


Personally I'd like to see people have some liability, perhaps via insurance with rebates available for going to well run pre-ownership seminars, puppy play socialisation and follow on classes, KC Bronze and so on; and a track record of responsible ownership.

It's maddening that people can buy puppies with no experience and little preparation, even establish serial anti-social dogs, and just dump the problems on other people and the Vets who end up euthanising.


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## keirk

RobD-BCactive said:


> Personally I'd like to see people have some liability, perhaps via insurance with rebates available for going to well run pre-ownership seminars, puppy play socialisation and follow on classes, KC Bronze and so on; and a track record of responsible ownership


The problem being that its mainly only responsible owners insure their dogs.


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## Colette

I strongly object to prong collars, although I must admit in the hands of the general public not as much as I despise choke chains, which can be lethal.

I don't really understand how people can argue that prong collars do not cause pain. that is the whole point (no pun intended). It is a device placed around the neck, that tightens, with prongs on the inside. Many dogs show signs of stres simply at having one put on, and the only reason they "work" is as an aversive.
Of course we could get into the debate about the grey area between discomfort and pain - of course that will depend on the collar, how it is fitted, the dog, and the force of the correction.
Some dogs may find the prong only mildly annoying and uncomfortable - others will find it terrifying and very painful.

In some ways I think the idea of a "self correcting" device is somehow worse than one that is completely controlled by the owner. To try to explain....

Say the dog is on a prong, sitting still, but starts up unwanted barking. The handler may give a correction on the collar in order to administer positive punishment. This is easily controlled, and provided the handler is considerate and reasonable it need not be a painful or harmful correction.

On the other hand, a dog that suddenly lunges will create a huge amount of force and give itself a massive correction, that may well be painful.

Even if completely controlled by the handler though - these devices can still be unsafe should the level of correction be too high.

But regardless of whether the dog in question feels discomfort or pain, these collars are still highly aversive, and as such have the same risks that other aversives have - including potential injury, behavioural fallout including aggression, inhibit the behaviour but not cure it, etc.

I just don't see any excuse for them - why anyone would choose to use such an aversive device, with all the potential risks, when there are safer, more fun, more effective methods and tools available is beyond me.

IMO the ONLY thig prong collars have got going for them is that in the hands of a numpty they are less likely to cause serious injury than the common or garden choke chain.


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## OllieBob

I spent several years living in Germany and prong collars were very common. I never saw one dog object nor show any discomfort wearing one. The dogs bounced around playing and were really happy, I've even seen them roaching on their back wearing one - not possible if it was painful. Surely if these things are that bad all these dogs would have been crawling along with their tails between their legs with great holes on their necks. But this was not so. They were recommended for dogs with tracheal problems as the gap between the prongs is wide enough to prevent the usual collapse that occurred with straight collars. They are fitted so that they can only close so far so don't choke the dog.
I did try one on myself to see hiow they felt and I can honestly say that it was not painful, even when pulled! Pressure yes, pain no.m The tips were smooth and rounded not sharp. 
I can only go on observations that I have made whilst living there. Not emotive hearsay.


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## RobD-BCactive

keirk said:


> The problem being that its mainly only responsible owners insure their dogs.


True, it'd require compulsory chipping and legistlation and be enforced better than car dumping appears to be. Sweden has done something, I don't expect to see similar here in UK in my lifetime.


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## Rottiefan

OllieBob said:


> I spent several years living in Germany and prong collars were very common. I never saw one dog object nor show any discomfort wearing one. The dogs bounced around playing and were really happy, I've even seen them roaching on their back wearing one - not possible if it was painful. Surely if these things are that bad all these dogs would have been crawling along with their tails between their legs with great holes on their necks. But this was not so. They were recommended for dogs with tracheal problems as the gap between the prongs is wide enough to prevent the usual collapse that occurred with straight collars. They are fitted so that they can only close so far so don't choke the dog.
> I did try one on myself to see hiow they felt and I can honestly say that it was not painful, even when pulled! Pressure yes, pain no.m The tips were smooth and rounded not sharp.
> I can only go on observations that I have made whilst living there. Not emotive hearsay.


Dogs do not form grudges, but the point people miss is that whenever a dog gets 'corrected' at the hands of one of these collars, the dog does show immediate signs of stress, pain, irritation, and as a result, even aggression.

I don't want to train dogs like this.


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## Colette

My first thought is why on earth is a dog with trachea damage being handled on ANY collar around its neck? Surely this is asking for trouble, regardless of what type of collar is in use!?
Why not recommend a harness? Perhaps because its virtually impossible to give a painful correction on a harness?


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## RobD-BCactive

OllieBob said:


> I spent several years living in Germany and prong collars were very common.
> ...
> They were recommended for dogs with tracheal problems as the gap between the prongs is wide enough to prevent the usual collapse that occurred with straight collars. They are fitted so that they can only close so far so don't choke the dog.


So you take a self-selected group of people who injured their dog, via bad handling and choke chains or traditional flat collars, failed to teach them loose leash walking to point of tracheal damage. Those dogs damaged their trachea without complaining of pain! Do you really think they didn't feel a thing? May be they just tend to block pain when stressed, and don't show it in a way that's obvious to people. If the dogs were more vocal about it, you wouldn't see these injuries!

Now you give them a device, which concentrates the pressure, and still allows you to yank and do exactly the same actions as before?

Try having some emotional frustrated angry person, yank on your prong collar when you don't expect it! I've seen housewives who wouldn't dream of being deliberately cruel, misuse choke chains and bodily lift 30KG Labs to side with a snap. Try than, and say "it's not painful, just a pressure".

If the Prong collar isn't unpleasant it ceases to function as intended.


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## OllieBob

RobD-BCactive said:


> So you take a self-selected group of people who injured their dog, via bad handling and choke chains or traditional flat collars, failed to teach them loose leash walking to point of tracheal damage. Those dogs damaged their trachea without complaining of pain! Do you really think they didn't feel a thing? May be they just tend to block pain when stressed, and don't show it in a way that's obvious to people. If the dogs were more vocal about it, you wouldn't see these injuries!
> If the Prong collar isn't unpleasant it ceases to function as intended.


This wasn't a self selected group of people. At the time I didn't have a dog due to traveling. I saw training classes, dogs walking in the street/parks and at no time did I see any distress from any dog. I can only say what I observed. But then I didn't see screaming emotional people with dogs. They just don't do that in Germany. Never saw a dog being snatched at or dragged, screamed at or punished. It seems that the frustrated angry mob is solely British.
The dogs with soft tracheas were not 'damaged', they had genetically soft tracheas. So you can stop jumping to conclusions that are completely wrong.
The point is what I observed is totally different from what people 'say' or hear. Do these people have ANY experience of seeing them in action before shooting off their mouths? It is not enough to think that something is wrong therefore it IS wrong. You need to have solid first hand experience then you can make an informed decision as to any benefits that can be achieved by a properly instructed person using them.


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## newfiesmum

OllieBob said:


> This wasn't a self selected group of people. At the time I didn't have a dog due to traveling. I saw training classes, dogs walking in the street/parks and at no time did I see any distress from any dog. I can only say what I observed. But then I didn't see screaming emotional people with dogs. They just don't do that in Germany. Never saw a dog being snatched at or dragged, screamed at or punished. *It seems that the frustrated angry mob is solely British.*
> 
> The dogs with soft tracheas were not 'damaged', they had genetically soft tracheas. So you can stop jumping to conclusions that are completely wrong.
> The point is what I observed is totally different from what people 'say' or hear. Do these people have ANY experience of seeing them in action before shooting off their mouths? It is not enough to think that something is wrong therefore it IS wrong. You need to have solid first hand experience then you can make an informed decision as to any benefits that can be achieved by a properly instructed person using them.


I rather object to that, actually. There is no need for any frustration in the owner when the poor dog is afraid to move in case he gets his neck pinched. I am sure I have seen frustrated, angry mobs all over the world, though what has to to with dog training I really cannot fathom.


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## OllieBob

Colette said:


> My first thought is why on earth is a dog with trachea damage being handled on ANY collar around its neck? Surely this is asking for trouble, regardless of what type of collar is in use!?
> Why not recommend a harness? Perhaps because its virtually impossible to give a painful correction on a harness?


Because at the time harnesses were very uncommon. And you can cause injury(to the back and neck) and thus pain using a harness incorrectly. Snatching a dog sharply as I have seen people do quite frequently will cause whiplash of the dogs neck as well as straining the back muscles/ligaments, to say nothing of the damage that can be done to the chest. But because people don't think of this they blindly go on snatching their dogs away from things and then at a later date wonder why the dog has neck/back/chest problems which cannot be attributed to anything else.


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## newfiesmum

OllieBob said:


> Because at the time harnesses were very uncommon. And you can cause injury(to the back and neck) and thus pain using a harness incorrectly. Snatching a dog sharply as I have seen people do quite frequently will cause whiplash of the dogs neck as well as straining the back muscles/ligaments, to say nothing of the damage that can be done to the chest. But because people don't think of this they blindly go on snatching their dogs away from things and then at a later date wonder why the dog has neck/back/chest problems which cannot be attributed to anything else.


If anyone is going to handle their dog how you describe, it is irrelevant what sort of harness, collar, headcollar, or other device he is wearing - it is going to cause damage. So why put something like a prong collar in the hands of someone who is likely to behave this way?


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## OllieBob

newfiesmum said:


> I rather object to that, actually. There is no need for any frustration in the owner* when the poor dog is afraid to move in case he gets his neck pinched*. I am sure I have seen frustrated, angry mobs all over the world, though what has to to with dog training I really cannot fathom.


I have never seen this in practise. As I said I can only go by what I saw over several years. Dogs I saw would race up body and tail wagging to have their collar put on and go for a walk, does that sound like a traumatised dog? 
I thought they were barbaric at first until I saw how they were used and actually tried one on myself. Unless people whio object so strongly have been to Germany and seen them used properly - after all they are a German invention - then how can they say they are an instrument of torture? What actual experience have they of them? How can anyone make an *informed *decision without actual experience?


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## Rottiefan

OllieBob said:


> I have never seen this in practise. As I said I can only go by what I saw over several years. Dogs I saw would race up body and tail wagging to have their collar put on and go for a walk, does that sound like a traumatised dog?
> I thought they were barbaric at first until I saw how they were used and actually tried one on myself. Unless people whio object so strongly have been to Germany and seen them used properly - after all they are a German invention - then how can they say they are an instrument of torture? What actual experience have they of them? How can anyone make an *informed *decision without actual experience?


A trustworthy decision can be formed from having so many professionals and organisations against the use of these devices. It may not be learnt from first hand experience, but it is as good as.

It's akin to someone putting there fingers in there ears and saying "I don't believe the world is round until I see it for myself".


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> Please consider AVSAB: Guidelines on the Use of Punishment for Dealing with Behavior Problems in Animals
> 
> An injection for a vaccination may cause no pain if it misses a nerve, and there are good reasons for such medical procedures, they are done in such a way to minimise the risk of adverse consequences.
> 
> People rush to use aversive methods to punish behaviours, in an attempt to stamp them out far too readily, and without regard to the risk of adverse outcomes.
> 
> There are far better ways of dealing with issues, and the aversive quck fixes suffer from short term effectiveness and not really teaching the good behavour you do want eg) controlled on leash walking, nearly as directly as the positive-reinforcement methods.
> 
> Anyone using aversive devices, mentioned in this thread, risk seriously damaging their dog psychologically even if not physically, and then requiring recovery and rehabilitations.


Given the choice of a head collar, a slip lead or a prong collar which would be your preference and why?

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> 1) The point of a prong collar, is to stop the dog from pulling. If he pulls, the prongs stick into his neck and that hurts. Also, the neck is an extremely delicate are so not only does it cause injury in the way of broken skin, it can also cause damage inside the neck. I am not a vet nor medically trained, but some on here are and I am sure will explain in more detail. a hypodermic needle, used properly by a good practitioner, will not hurt. How can a prong collar be for the benefit of the dog? Please explain in what way the dog could possibly benefit for such an implement? It will stop him pulling so that _you_ can enjoy his walks. It is certainly not going to make _him_ enjoy his walks, quite the opposite.
> 
> 2) if it is true that some people have such poor co-ordination that they would be unable to use a clicker, there were other humane and nice ways to train a dog before clickers were invented.
> 
> 3) A properly designed and fitted headcollar does none of those things. I don't know what sort of cheap rubbish you have had on your dogs, but the dogmatic, which one of my dogs wears as back up because he is much stronger than me, never rides up the eyes, never cuts in, and will certainly never cause bleeding. If it was uncomfortable the dog would try to get it off instead of walking along nicely with his head in the air.
> 
> 4) See 3.
> 
> A prong collar and a pinch collar are the same thing as far as I know. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. You may have one of these things about, since you seem so fond of them, so I would suggest you fit it around your neck, tie the lead to a lampost or get someone to hold it, and pull like crazy. That should answer your question. Anything with prongs on the end that digs into a delicate area of the skin is going to hurt, that should be obvious to anybody.
> 
> But it is being mean to them. The smell alone would be awful for a dog without having the stuff sprayed in his face. They are designed to fit under the dog's nose, not to the side. I was advised to get one to stop Ferdie humping everything that moved. This was before I knew any better and when I saw where it was supposed to go I didn't use it.


1) True the prong collar will help stop a dog pulling. No, it doesn't work through pain, no it won't break the skin, I agree you're not medically trained and yes, I'm here to explain it properly. The prong collar works through pressure, and pressure doesn't automatically mean pain. When a dog's pulling or is distracted by the desire to reach the destination (high value reward) it's attention isn't with you. When it sees another dog and lunges, it's attention isn't with you. The pressure from the prong collar gives you that attention in a far more measured and controlled way that a clicker or head collar because you're in contact with the dog. Once you have the attention what you do with it is up to you, praise, click, treat, you actually have the window to put a command and a reward in place, painlessly. A walk that was frustration and a battle becomes managable and enjoyable, and the result can even train the prong collar out. What part of that isn't a benefit? Dogs will accept a prong collar and walk quite happily, tail wagging, no stress, and no pulling.

2) So why not try another tool that gives more feedback to the handler and presents training oportunities? Pulling the dogs head towards the pavement hasn't got it's attention so where's the training oportunity with some alternatives some would say are a better option?

3) Read some of the headcollar posts, people have tried several headcollars before settling on the right one, and there's no consensus on the best one. I'll bet the magority of the users have the wrong size, type and fit and ignore the discomfort. They've bought one, they're going to use it, they've been assured it will work on any dog. So that's not you with your choice, but that's not everybody. I'd trust the wrong prong collar more than the wrong headcollar due to the design and safety features!

I've had prong collars around more limbs and more times that I'd care to mention. I can even use my own neck size to measure a collar for a dog.

Here's a wild guess...... you've not actually seen or used a prong collar. Much past pictures on t'interweb and what you've picked up on forums you really don't know anything about them as real fact. I think you'd be genuinely mouth open suprised if you saw one in action, even with a novice user. What would you say if it didn't do any of the things you've said above?

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> Anyone using aversive devices, mentioned in this thread, risk seriously damaging their dog psychologically even if not physically, and then requiring recovery and rehabilitations.


Rubbish. The dogs environment has more impact on its behavior that just walking it on a collar. Scare mongering by R+ fanatics seems quite rampant, but you don't seem to accept it's not a 100% cure and can't offer any resolution for the missing percents. Falure by the handler is only even countered by "you're not doing it right" or "you're not spending enough time.......", when the average owner just wants results on 5 simple things. Come, no, sit, lie down, walk nicely. How can something as brilliant as R+ that a monkey could do not hold all the answers? Perhaps balanced training, just like we all face daily, is the better way forward?

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> Because they have dirty great spikes on them, to simulate a discipline "bite" as one apologist for such explained. Sharp teeth, physical contact in small area is aversive and that is intensified by "checks". Dogs who nip, can provoke yelps for example, so Sherlock Holmes is not required on this one...
> 
> People who use Prong collars then "check" to correct the dog, and that then causes pain in an attempt to physically subdue them by positive-punishment & negative-reinforcement (as nicely explained by tripod).
> 
> Because the trainer had the dog in class for 8 weeks, and then came out with an aversive solution. If he was a behaviourist, he would have referred the case to himself rather than persist in keeping the disruption in class.
> 
> The class was not the right place, the dog should have been referred or steps taken to avoid the non-confident dog being other threshold and thus not learning. Let's face it, if it were really a good solution, why did the trainer wait so long? It smacks of desperation.


You have very little experience of prong collars and it shows. Sorry to be so blunt (pun) but it pains me when people see an opinionated layman have a rant like yours and think you may have some knowledge. Please, do us all a favour, start your comments with 'In My Humble Opinion', because so far you've not hit on a single workable fact.

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Rottiefan said:


> I am being completely objective in saying that prong collars are harmful and I think anyone that uses them are not trying hard enough to work on other positive training methods. This is known with the help of numerous scientific research studies and investigations that have demonstrated a significantly disadvantageous result for using aversive training methods over positive reinforcement training methodology.
> 
> What I think it comes down to, honestly, is laziness and lack of knowledge. People want quick fixes now, now, now for a whole host of behaviours, and the truth is, it takes a lot of time and effort to solve many behaviours. That said, using positive methods correctly, some behaviours can change incredibly quickly too. It depends on the individual dog.
> 
> But many people who are having trouble with their dogs just want the undesirable behaviours to be fixed immediately and so the quickest option is by way of a prong/choke collar, or even an e-collar, because we know they inhibit behaviours.
> 
> *Trouble is, anyone getting a dog who doesn't want to get into training and behaviour should not be suitable to own a dog, period*, IMO. We can have so much fun training and rehabilitating dogs, using positive methods, but those who have dogs with 'problems' but are not interested in the training side of things have been very naive and irresponsible and, to confirm this, use methods that are not in the dog's best interests. :thumbdown:


You're not being at all objective, prong collars are not automatically harmful, positive methods alone cannot cure all undesired behaviors, and considering lifestyle, environment, time available, knowledge levels, ability to train and resources available you're ignoring most of the contributing factors.

I had to highlight a really ignorant and much overused ongoing general stamement we see a lot, if this were true then we'd have about 200 dogs with "worthy" owners in the UK who all post on the same 4 message boards, the rest of us are muppets who shouldn't be trusted with a pair of shoe laces (let alone children, cars, employees, collegues, parents, or any living pet)!

regards,

Austin


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## Andromeda

Austin can I ask you one question, please?

Why some people are saying that due to bad reflex they cannot use a clicker but they do not hesitate to use a prong collar?
With first your badly timing can only mark wrong behaviour but till you don't put it on cue it's only behaviour (I'm talking now about teaching commands for example as: sit.)
Can you said the same about wrong timing and a prong collar? Does it only apply "a pressure" when used correctly?
An this is a really problem, people who cannot use prong collars but due to existing believes they are thinking about themselves: specialists.


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## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> You have very little experience of prong collars and it shows. Sorry to be so blunt (pun) but it pains me when people see an opinionated layman have a rant like yours and think you may have some knowledge. Please, do us all a favour, start your comments with 'In My Humble Opinion', because so far you've not hit on a single workable fact


Austin, I notice you evaded the points made. Again you fail to provide any authoriative materials backing your claims.

In fact all you need to do to see such checking, is watch the Dog Whispherer series and see how ineffective Prong collars are in hands of public. Even the stooge dogs wearing prong collars, have been shown in background forcefully handled (see episode with Dogo Argentino and English Bulldog wearing Prong in background. Another classic is the Malamute in Prong that tears Cesar's arm up).

*Of course I have not used a Prong Collar, and I never will!*

Why would I waste time with something that's not only ineffective in long term, but potentially harmful, when there are reliable, safe and pleasant alternatives.

People who use aversive methods to have the dog walk politely, end up using *force*. Even on TV shows, where Prong collars feature you see this. One does not needs to personally use something, to observe that.

The fact is, there are better ways, for instance : Turn in your choke, prong or shock collar for a free SENSE-ation™ or Weiss Walkie™ harness and start training in a positive manner today!

As they say


Humane Soceity of Boulder Valley said:


> A no-pull harness is:
> 
> Easy for both pet and guardian to use
> Facilitates force-free training that's fun for both you and your pet
> Encourages increased attention from your dog during on-leash walks
> Helps prevent on-leash jumping on strangers or lunging at other dogs


The bottom line is, the methods you defend are relying on Punishment, which is specifically warned against in the AVSAB's position statement, yet you promote this device as if it would be harmless and risk free as used by general public. The reason I think the owners of these "problem dogs", find these control devices ineffective, is that greater intensity is required as the dog becomes habituated. So the quick fix aversive becomes less effective with time; the unknowledgeable owner still has to teach the desirable leash walking and the product purchase did nothing about that.


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## Rottiefan

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> You're not being at all objective, *prong collars are not automatically harmful, positive methods alone cannot cure all undesired behaviors*, and considering lifestyle, environment, time available, knowledge levels, ability to train and resources available you're ignoring most of the contributing factors.
> 
> I had to highlight a really ignorant and much overused ongoing general stamement we see a lot, if this were true then we'd have about 200 dogs with "worthy" owners in the UK who all post on the same 4 message boards, the rest of us are muppets who shouldn't be trusted with a pair of shoe laces (let alone children, cars, employees, collegues, parents, or any living pet)!
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


Tripod's already given a good number of articles that investigates the use of force-based training methods. Maybe you should read some and then learn.

So how do positive reinforcement-based (and this is including negative punishment) training methods not work for all problems? Any basis for that statement? Because many people will beg to differ.

Everyone has this agenda where they have to "Tell the dog that it's doing something wrong and we're not happy with it!" and it's fueled by a desire to control everything around them. People with this attitude demonstrate a severe lack of knowledge and general insecurity about handling their dogs. Anything unknown behaviour is described as 'dominant' etc., etc., etc.

R+ can work for everything, IMO. And there is a lot of evidence to demonstrate that the dogs and owners have a lot more fun when doing so.


----------



## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> You're not being at all objective, prong collars are not automatically harmful, positive methods alone cannot cure all undesired behaviors, and considering lifestyle, environment, time available, knowledge levels, ability to train and resources available you're ignoring most of the contributing factors


Positive methods are effective for teaching both Loose Leash Walking and Heeling, and there are non-aversive "quick fixes" providing safe walking, that is what is relevant.

"positive methods alone cannot cure all undesired behaviours", is not relevant in this discussion because, a Prong won't "self correct" barking, counter surfing, jumping up or marking indoors for instance; so if you believe your statement that is still no reason to use a Prong.

So far, you've failed in my view, to make any case to justify the use of such a device. Statements like "not automatically harmful" can never be a reason to use something or permit it. "Crack Cocaine" is also not automatically harmful for example.

Furthermore most owners do manage their dogs, do train them to varying levels, so your rantestimate of "200 worthy owners" matches the quality of the case you have been presenting. Lots of rhetoric and personalisation, very short on solid research.


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## newfiesmum

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> 1) True the prong collar will help stop a dog pulling. No, it doesn't work through pain, no it won't break the skin, I agree you're not medically trained and yes, I'm here to explain it properly. The prong collar works through pressure, and pressure doesn't automatically mean pain. When a dog's pulling or is distracted by the desire to reach the destination (high value reward) it's attention isn't with you. When it sees another dog and lunges, it's attention isn't with you. The pressure from the prong collar gives you that attention in a far more measured and controlled way that a clicker or head collar because you're in contact with the dog. Once you have the attention what you do with it is up to you, praise, click, treat, you actually have the window to put a command and a reward in place, painlessly. A walk that was frustration and a battle becomes managable and enjoyable, and the result can even train the prong collar out. What part of that isn't a benefit? Dogs will accept a prong collar and walk quite happily, tail wagging, no stress, and no pulling.
> 
> 2) So why not try another tool that gives more feedback to the handler and presents training oportunities? Pulling the dogs head towards the pavement hasn't got it's attention so where's the training oportunity with some alternatives some would say are a better option?
> 
> 3) Read some of the headcollar posts, people have tried several headcollars before settling on the right one, and there's no consensus on the best one. I'll bet the magority of the users have the wrong size, type and fit and ignore the discomfort. They've bought one, they're going to use it, they've been assured it will work on any dog. So that's not you with your choice, but that's not everybody. I'd trust the wrong prong collar more than the wrong headcollar due to the design and safety features!
> 
> I've had prong collars around more limbs and more times that I'd care to mention. I can even use my own neck size to measure a collar for a dog.
> 
> Here's a wild guess...... you've not actually seen or used a prong collar. Much past pictures on t'interweb and what you've picked up on forums you really don't know anything about them as real fact. I think you'd be genuinely mouth open suprised if you saw one in action, even with a novice user. What would you say if it didn't do any of the things you've said above?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


If you have your wits about you and see danger before it happens, you can use lots of ways, without gadgets, to gain a dog's attention before that happens. You should not be waiting until it happens. A headcollar is not about dragging a dog's head toward the pavement, it is about keeping the nose down in the first place. If the nose cannot point forwards, the dog cannot pull. The same as a horses headcollar or bridle - do you make these prong collars for horses as well?



LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Rubbish. The dogs environment has more impact on its behavior that just walking it on a collar. Scare mongering by R+ fanatics seems quite rampant, but you don't seem to accept it's not a 100% cure and can't offer any resolution for the missing percents. Falure by the handler is only even countered by "you're not doing it right" or "you're not spending enough time.......", *when the average owner just wants results on 5 simple things. Come, no, sit, lie down, walk nicely.* How can something as brilliant as R+ that a monkey could do not hold all the answers? Perhaps balanced training, just like we all face daily, is the better way forward?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


That is the point. People who want quick fix methods will use anything, things like headcollars (used properly) and harnesses will teach the dog to walk nicely over time, whilst still giving the opportunities to teach loose leash walking.


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## keirk

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> or head collar because you're in contact with the dog.





newfiesmum said:


> things like headcollars (used properly) and harnesses will teach the dog to walk nicely over time, whilst still giving the opportunities to teach loose leash walking.


To be fair a headcollar or harness could only teach a dog to walk nicely in the same way as a prong collar would.

For example - If you pull you hit pressure (possibly to the degree when it becomes painful) = a negative outcome (or an aversive). In operate conditioning terms - a positive punishment (the pressure applied) and a negative reinforcer (the release of the pressure when you stop pulling). Basically the same as a prong collar.

Clearly the degree to which the aversive is applied is very different. The prong collar will apply greatly more pressure than a head collar or harness. And its worth noting that there is a lot of research that shows that dogs (and I suspect humans) don't learn as quickly under conditions of excessive stress (Joels et al. 2006). So applying a aversive to a greater degree doesn't equal faster learning.

On the other hand if a dog doesn't see the aversive as a negative outcome (ie the pressure around the nose or chest / legs on a headcollar or harness doesn't bother the dog) no learning will take place.


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## newfiesmum

keirk said:


> To be fair a headcollar or harness could only teach a dog to walk nicely in the same way as a prong collar would.
> 
> For example - If you pull you hit pressure (possibly to the degree when it becomes painful) = a negative outcome (or an aversive). In operate conditioning terms - a positive punishment (the pressure applied) and a negative reinforcer (the release of the pressure when you stop pulling). Basically the same as a prong collar.
> 
> Clearly the degree to which the aversive is applied is very different. The prong collar will apply greatly more pressure than a head collar or harness. And its worth noting that there is a lot of research that shows that dogs (and I suspect humans) don't learn as quickly under conditions of excessive stress (Joels et al. 2006). So applying a aversive to a greater degree doesn't equal faster learning.
> 
> On the other hand if a dog doesn't see the aversive as a negative outcome (ie the pressure around the nose or chest / legs on a headcollar or harness doesn't bother the dog) no learning will take place.


You are missing the point of what a headcollar is all about. If you have a double ended lead with one end attached to the headcollar (and I would always recommend a dogmatic for comfort and no aversive effects) and the other attached to the dog's ordinary collar, the headcollar is merely a back up and aid to teaching loose leash walking. You can still teach a loose leash on the collar, but use the headcollar as an aid and to give the handler confidence. It is not to be used as the be all and end all of stopping the dog from pulling. You do not have that opportunity with a prong collar; dog pulls = dog gets hurt, and please don't tell me it is just pressure. Put an ordinary collar on him later and he will soon learn that he can pull all he likes in that.

There was someone on here a while back trying to sell us the idea of an electric lead, which gives the animal a shock if he pulls. I see no difference in these two implements.


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## RobD-BCactive

A head collar also allows you to break the glare of an anti-social dog when it fixates on another dog, by turning gently it's head.

A prong collar totally fails in this regard, which is why you see the handlers, hauling the dog off with physical force. Aversive collars, encourage checking and set the owners up to fail.

An advantage of getting to grips with R+/P- training method, is that you can generalise it, so the time investment pays off many times over the whole dog lifetime.


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## Blondie

Like I said earlier, in my humble opinion (LOL, Austin!) a prong collar should only be a last resort for a larger breed dog who is truly 'red-zone' with dog-dog aggression and/or dog-people agression and whose only other option is PTS. 

They shouldnt be used as a training tool, but as a rehabilitation tool.


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## Starlite

Ceearott said:


> Yeah, sadly and all too common mistake, wrongly used, these things can feck a dog up for life, even worse than before!!
> 
> They should not be used unless person has extensive knowledge of breed concerned, dog concerned, and been taught in correct procedure to use collar.


where would you see somehing like a prong collar being demonstarted and how would a trainer gain experience in this "method"? I know the 2nd part of my question can easily be answered with "well they would try the collar out" but surely we come back to the fact they can use it incorrectly while learning?

Being an owner of a large powerful breed bred specifically to pull I can happily say Ive never had to resort to what Id call exterme methods of correction. 
Sorry I dont know all the correct terms (Im just an owner not a trainer) but Ive found negative punishment and positive rewarding has worked wonders! Not overnight of course, but with patience and perseverance I have a very large dog who can walk on a collar and loose lead happily


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## Terr

Ceearott said:


> Prong collars and their more modern, gentler counterparts are a tool that can work very well, BUT, you will always get peeps who will jump on you for using them! Personally, I would only consider using them in very extreme cases, like in a truly 'red-zone' dog which is dog-dog or dog-people aggressive and it would only be used for rehabilitation purposes, NOT to wear all the time. I really do think they are a last resort option. I have witnessed many a redzone dog be rehabilitated with prong collars way back in the 80's, used by people who knew what they were doing, these dogs were successfully returned to their families - the only other option left to these dogs was PTS, and none of them were.
> 
> One of my bitches pulled me like a steam train for a long time, not responding to various training methods. I eventually took her out for a mile long walk and every time she pulled I stood still, no eye contact, no speaking, no tugging on lead, I simply stood still until she stood still, then set off again. It is very difficult to restrain yourself from not giving dog any contact and stopping yourself from getting annoyed, lol, but it worked and she doestn pull anymore! By the way, it took me and hour to walk a mile that day - longest time its ever took me, lol!! I certainly wouldnt use one on a dog that wouldnt walk to heel - far better training methods around these days than a fear/pain based one.


Completely agree with you. At one point during the winter I got one for Dante as he was absolutely insufferable to be around when he saw other dogs out on our walks. He would pull be so hard I could fall over. Having my head smashed in against compacted snow and ice was a pretty horrible experience. We used the collar for about 2 weeks with some success before he lunged once and yelped in pain. I threw it in the bin after that and got mini-crampons for my shoes. Thank God he's much better now.


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## newfiesmum

Terr said:


> Completely agree with you. At one point during the winter I got one for Dante as he was absolutely insufferable to be around when he saw other dogs out on our walks. He would pull be so hard I could fall over. Having my head smashed in against compacted snow and ice was a pretty horrible experience. We used the collar for about 2 weeks with some success before he lunged once and yelped in pain. I threw it in the bin after that and got mini-crampons for my shoes. Thank God he's much better now.


Precisely the point I was trying to make in an earlier post, where someone said that if the dog lunges, it gives you a window to get the dog's attention. How are you going to get the dog's attention if he is suffering? Having a twelve stone dog who, although I wouldn't call it lunging, will take off with me hanging on for dear life if he sees another dog, I see no need for anything like this. I can keep him under control perfectly well with his dogmatic headcollar, no pain to him, I don't get pulled into the road or into a tree as I once did. It is still not easy, though. I have to be vigilant or he will see the dog before I do or if someone talks to him, he wants to get to them. I just make sure I have his head in the right position before that happens, just in case. Of course, if he had a prong collar on I wouldn't have to do anything, would I? I could just wait for him to find out that it is painful.

Nobody, and nothing is going to convince me that these things are ever necessary. They bring to mind the hairshirts worn by mediaeval monks who believed that by punishing their bodies they were purifying their souls. They wore those things because they were uncomfortable, but they did so out of choice. The dog has no choice; he does not understand that he is not supposed to pull, and something like this is not going to teach him that. Proper positive training is going to teach him that, possibly with the aid of an anti pull device like a headcollar or front clip harness.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

gizzmo341 said:


> if you want to see how much that collar hurts up dog put it on you on a senivite part ie top of you arm near you arm pit or you thigh or neck and if it hurts you before you put it on your dog


Please, everyone, stop using this one! It's as if you think a substantial majority people who own or use prong collars probably haven't already done this. So, from experience of putting prong collars of varying sizes over varying limbs and puling to varying degrees what exactly would you like to know about the sensation? Can it be made to hurt? Yes, it can, but it takes way more force than you'd ever use on your dog, that kind of pressure would be considered a freak accident if you somehow managed to do it accidentally...as in you'd need to lift your dog off the floor kind of 'accidental' force!

Lets not keep pulling this old chestnut out, it's been done, to death.

regards,

Austin


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## newfiesmum

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Please, everyone, stop using this one! It's as if you think a substantial majority people who own or use prong collars probably haven't already done this. So, from experience of putting prong collars of varying sizes over varying limbs and puling to varying degrees what exactly would you like to know about the sensation? Can it be made to hurt? Yes, it can, *but it takes way more force than you'd ever use on your dog, *that kind of pressure would be considered a freak accident if you somehow managed to do it accidentally...as in you'd need to lift your dog off the floor kind of 'accidental' force!
> 
> Lets not keep pulling this old chestnut out, it's been done, to death.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


Ah, are you getting the point at last then, Austin? It is _the dog_ that is using the force, not the handler, and he doesn't know any better. And a large breed is a lot stronger than a lot of humans. Even a small dog can pull like a freight train, and the handler may not even notice, but the dog is using all the force.


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## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Yes, it can, but it takes way more force than you'd ever use on your dog, that kind of pressure would be considered a freak accident if you somehow managed to do it accidentally...as in you'd need to lift your dog off the floor kind of 'accidental' force!


Lunging dogs, disclocate handler's arms.

A good anti-pull system, takes into account "accidental" force and avoids it. Prongs are just inferior, you made a bad choice, admit it and move on!


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## Rottiefan

Even though some people use head collars in a negative reinforcement way (applying pressure to make them do a behaviour- there's a video of Jean Donaldson using the Gentle Leader in this way on You Tube!), I think most people use head collars in a negative punishment/positive reinforcement way, i.e. when a dog wants to pull, the owner stands still (just as they would on a red light, green light method) but is *aided* by the head collar in keeping control of the dog, i.e. to stop them too, especially if the person isn't strong enough to stop still with a large breed if the dog was just on a collar/harness. So we use the same positive reinforcement/negative punishment techniques with head collars as we would with normal flat collars or harnesses, it just allows us to execute them easier.


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## Guest

I have read the first post - but none that follow"
personally I would NOT be attending a puppy class - you did say a puupy class? with a trainer! you did say a trainer! that used such an implement! Just my views!
DT


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> Lunging dogs, disclocate handler's arms.
> 
> A good anti-pull system, takes into account "accidental" force and avoids it. Prongs are just inferior, you made a bad choice, admit it and move on!


Rob, seriously now, as an admitted amature with no experience of prong collars you seem extremely vocal and you should genuinly stop. Have you put forward a single R+ viable alternative? All I've seen so far is gum flapping and fairieland, move on, please, this isn't your area of 'expertise' and I've had literally years to fine tune this exact argument that won't make you look good . I recall a very pertinant question asked in jest once, 'do you really want to ride this train'?

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Rottiefan said:


> Even though some people use head collars in a negative reinforcement way (applying pressure to make them do a behaviour- there's a video of Jean Donaldson using the Gentle Leader in this way on You Tube!), I think most people use head collars in a negative punishment/positive reinforcement way, i.e. when a dog wants to pull, the owner stands still (just as they would on a red light, green light method) but is *aided* by the head collar in keeping control of the dog, i.e. to stop them too, especially if the person isn't strong enough to stop still with a large breed if the dog was just on a collar/harness. So we use the same positive reinforcement/negative punishment techniques with head collars as we would with normal flat collars or harnesses, it just allows us to execute them easier.


Rottiefan, I monitor headcollar issues, I monitor prong collar issues. Before you stake any credibility on this argument please, pretty please with cherries on top read the posts on the forum. Without even picking a single external post I can prove you wrong to an exponential degree. Would you be at least willing to reconsider?

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> People who want quick fix methods will use anything, things like headcollars (used properly) and harnesses will teach the dog to walk nicely over time, whilst still giving the opportunities to teach loose leash walking.


Just within this single post alone the number of statements you've made for a head collar can be shot down with actual factual proof against them in the last month alone from other posts in this forum. I accept you don't like prong collars and wouldn't use one, please, let it rest at that. There's the same few posters with a strong opinion against, none of which are more than a home dog owner with an opinion about someting they've seen a picture of and read a few posts about. I know you mean well for your dogs, but your knowledge of this subject is little more than "don't know em, don't want to know em, my dog is fine", and there's nothing wrong with that. I cringe at the thought of a headcollar. Ironically for you, I prefer a prong collar and love dogs just as much as you. The difference is I understand both, have seen the effects of both, and talk to more trainers and owners in a month than you have in the last 10 years.

If you care about dogs then don't go stating what you think is fact when you're 100% off the mark. I'm only a phone call away and have as much time as you'd want to discuss this, for the record we could make a headcollar to a higher quality than Dogmatic could ever muster, ever...... put 2 and 2 together to guess why we don't.....

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> Ah, are you getting the point at last then, Austin? It is _the dog_ that is using the force, not the handler, and he doesn't know any better. And a large breed is a lot stronger than a lot of humans. Even a small dog can pull like a freight train, and the handler may not even notice, but the dog is using all the force.


Judo?

Yes, it is the dog, the dog is attached to you, you have the ability to judge and react to the force with a congnative recognition of the outcome, the dog relies on instinct and direction from you. What you do with the dog's behavior forms the behavior just as with R+, which makes R+ little more than a function and not an overall solution. Sorry, pardon me, did I forget some citations? How bad would it look if I could use your 'anti' citations to prove MY point? Been here before, many times over.

Differences aside, Olive branches out, and forget the prong collars, what do you think of the rest of the equipment? Nice, isn't it? Seriously, there's none better or we'd have that instead. Very fussy y'see, it's best or nothing....because that's what our dogs are worth, that's what I use.....because I care!

A large breed is much strongeyahayahyah, 'give me a fulcrum and a lever and I'll move the world'. The breed is unimportant, from Neopolitan to Papillion each has a common set of traits, the handler and the handlers preconception is the only variable.

Small dogs? Oh my favorite example. You have Newfoundlands? What would it take to put a collar on and exert force to lift that dog off it's front paws against it? I'd have a go at that tug of war for a larf, but deep down wouldn't really fancy my chances against it...... but to hold back a Jack Russell (aw, c'mon, it's a bench test breed) no probs. So because the dog can't pull me over I'm able to hold them back, but what about the damage to the small dog and not me, did you consider that? No. Prong collars actually protect the dog from the owners!!
A headcollar can't do that.....really...a headcollar? Do you use headcollars? Do you know what they can do to a Jack Russel and not a Newfoundland? Do you have any idea what a headcollar can do to a Labrador? Dobermans, that's a dog who needs a knowledgable owner. American bulldog, lovely breed with a few quirks. Do you know a staffie that can chew up a railway sleeper despite the owners lament only has a 16" neck in the morning and can grow it by 2 inches by afternoon from all the jaw excersise? Ever seen how badly a specialist police dog walks on a lead? Ever sell a prong collar out your boot on a car park to several members of a vehermently "anti prong collar" organisation? Of course you haven't, but wouldn't you have to be absolutely certain you knew what you were doing if you did, and trust your customer to be sensible? Wouldn't that be worth being able to say "shut up Rob"?

regards,

Austin


----------



## Blondie

Starlite said:


> where would you see somehing like a prong collar being demonstarted and how would a trainer gain experience in this "method"? I know the 2nd part of my question can easily be answered with "well they would try the collar out" but surely we come back to the fact they can use it incorrectly while learning?
> 
> Being an owner of a large powerful breed bred specifically to pull I can happily say Ive never had to resort to what Id call exterme methods of correction.
> Sorry I dont know all the correct terms (Im just an owner not a trainer) but Ive found negative punishment and positive rewarding has worked wonders! Not overnight of course, but with patience and perseverance I have a very large dog who can walk on a collar and loose lead happily


The two people Isaw using them years ago had been shown how to use them and what to use them for by a higly regarded German ROttweiler trainer at the time.

I do keep saying they are not for training a dog, but for REHABILIATION!!!

There is a difference!!


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## Andromeda

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Prong collars actually protect the dog from the owners!!


I never heard something like that?

Prong collars protect the dog? How?

Maybe when you wrapped you dog in it? Or...
Sorry but my imagination is to small for this. Any help?

By the way this argument is crucial in this discussion. Now I will always use a prong collar...

I'm cynical


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## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Have you put forward a single R+ viable alternative? All I've seen so far is gum flapping and fairieland, move on, please, this isn't your area of 'expertise' and I've had literally years to fine tune this exact argument that won't make you look good . I recall a very pertinant question asked in jest once, 'do you really want to ride this train'


Actually if you took any notice of the content of posts rather than dismissing them, you'ld know of anti-pull harness systems where a quick fix is needed for safety reasons, as well as head collars being popularly used. The Owners, I see with those are not having to be forceful with their dogs but gently leading them. The statements, are totally at odds with the observed reality, I see every day in my neighbourhood. The true drawback of headcollars is that the dogs can find the nose strap uncomfortable. Some dogs try and remove them, possibly because they were not properly habituated to the headcollar when it was first introduced.

The R+ technique for teaching heeling is well known, simply rewarding the dog when it's in the correct zone, gradually extending the time it is needed to be in that area before rewarding.

If you really do not know of these alternatives, then you have undermined what previous argument you have given; if you do know of them it shows the cynicism that lies behind your posts.

I note once again, you have evaded points made, preferring offense and dismissing the opinions, observations of others, as well as bodies like the AVSAB, the Kennel Club (R+ based training is used in UK basic obedience and good citizen classes, and works for heeling).

You whole argument boils down to "I liked using a Prong and find it convenient, and it didn't seem bad to me", you ignore frequent misuse and liklihood of abuse by unschooled dog owners, who resort to force in an emotionaly frustrated state.

Frankly, I cannot be sure why the OP's class was apparently finding this difficult, as I posted early on this is generally not the case in classes, and people training their dogs with R+ succeed.

Perhaps people who don't listen, fail to apply simple techniques consistently, and dismiss best practice & research out of hand, are those who resort to the methods you advocate. The more you rant, the more it shows how evasive you and attempting to deny others their right to make points in a polite way, to discuss an issue.


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## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Just within this single post alone the number of statements you've made for a head collar can be shot down with actual factual proof against them in the last month alone from other posts in this forum. I accept you don't like prong collars and wouldn't use one, please, let it rest at that. There's the same few posters with a strong opinion against, none of which are more than a home dog owner with an opinion about someting they've seen a picture of and read a few posts about


That's what you would like to believe, it simply isn't true. For example a KC approved class here, explicitly permit traditional flat collars, harnesses and half check, and specifically ban choke chains and "spikey things". As do many other respected Dog Trainer's, including ones who taught obedience for years, with traditional choke chains.


> I know you mean well for your dogs, but your knowledge of this subject is little more than "don't know em, don't want to know em, my dog is fine", and there's nothing wrong with that. I cringe at the thought of a headcollar. Ironically for you, I prefer a prong collar and love dogs just as much as you. The difference is I understand both, have seen the effects of both, and talk to more trainers and owners in a month than you have in the last 10 years.


Actually Newfiesmum is in agreement with Humane Soceites, and the research based Dog Training "establishment" in the UK. She has a right to her opinino, it likely reflects those of most dog walkers in my area.


> If you care about dogs then don't go stating what you think is fact when you're 100% off the mark. I'm only a phone call away and have as much time as you'd want to discuss this, for the record we could make a headcollar to a higher quality than Dogmatic could ever muster, ever...... put 2 and 2 together to guess why we don't.....


Actually, it appears the real difference between you & Newfiesmum seem to be, you are a manufacturer of a product or trying to sell it and you ignore the obvious misuse of Prongs on the TV screens and their ineffectiveness in the hands of the owners shown; Newfiesmum would likely support a ban of them to self-appointed Dog Whisperer's and unqualified Dog Trainers as well as the general public, which is a perfectly valid opinion which a maker of a product ought to understand and respect, not rubbish attempting to attack a perceived weakspot.


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## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> A headcollar can't do that.....really...a headcollar? Do you use headcollars? Do you know what they can do to a Jack Russel and not a Newfoundland? Do you have any idea what a headcollar can do to a Labrador? Dobermans, that's a dog who needs a knowledgable owner.


You ignore the fact there are a range of good non-aversive alternatives to suit many breeds of dogs and their owners. I happen to have seen a Doberman yesterday using double attachment described by Newfiesmum, which walked beautifully. I believe (from observation of the dog's behaviour) the head collar is used in that dog, to avoid it fixating and allow the owner to gently increase distance, when the somewhat skittish dog takes a dislike to an oncoming dog and avoid the oncoming dog from reacting to threat of aggression. The Prong does not have that feature.


> Ever sell a prong collar out your boot on a car park to several members of a vehermently "anti prong collar" organisation? Of course you haven't, but wouldn't you have to be absolutely certain you knew what you were doing if you did, and trust your customer to be sensible? Wouldn't that be worth being able to say "shut up Rob"?


Another breach of the rules of civilised debate. Your tactics show the weakness and lack of conviction. Shame on you!!

Do you know how often I see dogs walked in head collars, and how few show any distress or discomfort in their handling?

Then I wonder how much market share does Prong have in the UK? Ever wondered why? Blame a "few forum posters" all you want...


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## newfiesmum

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Rob, seriously now, as an admitted amature with no experience of prong collars you seem extremely vocal and you should genuinly stop. Have you put forward a single R+ viable alternative? All I've seen so far is gum flapping and fairieland, move on, please, this isn't your area of 'expertise' and I've had literally years to fine tune this exact argument that won't make you look good . I recall a very pertinant question asked in jest once, 'do you really want to ride this train'?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


Why are you assuming that there are no experts on this thread? There are experienced trainers on this thread, some with a degree in animal behaviour, yet you go ahead and assume that we are all amateurs. Yes, I would like to ride this train, please. I would like to hear of your exact argument which won't make Rottiefan look good? Please go ahead; I am sure we are all waiting with baited breath.



LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Rottiefan, I monitor headcollar issues, I monitor prong collar issues. Before you stake any credibility on this argument please, pretty please with cherries on top read the posts on the forum. *Without even picking a single external post I can prove you wrong to an exponential degree. * Would you be at least willing to reconsider?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


Please do. I would be fascinated to read that.



LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Just within this single post alone the number of statements you've made for a head collar can be shot down with actual factual proof against them in the last month alone from other posts in this forum. I accept you don't like prong collars and wouldn't use one, please, let it rest at that. There's the same few posters with a strong opinion against, none of which are more than a home dog owner with an opinion about someting they've seen a picture of and read a few posts about. I know you mean well for your dogs, but your knowledge of this subject is little more than "don't know em, don't want to know em, my dog is fine", and there's nothing wrong with that. I cringe at the thought of a headcollar. Ironically for you, I prefer a prong collar and love dogs just as much as you. The difference is I understand both, have seen the effects of both, and talk to more trainers and owners in a month than you have in the last 10 years.
> 
> If you care about dogs then don't go stating what you think is fact when you're 100% off the mark. I'm only a phone call away and have as much time as you'd want to discuss this, *for the record we could make a headcollar to a higher quality than Dogmatic *could ever muster, ever...... put 2 and 2 together to guess why we don't.....
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


Please enlighten me? Could it be that it needs a bit of knowledge to use a headcollar properly, it is not a quick fix method that you can just shove on your dog and all your problems will be over?



LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Judo?
> 
> Yes, it is the dog, the dog is attached to you, you have the ability to judge and react to the force with a congnative recognition of the outcome, the dog relies on instinct and direction from you. What you do with the dog's behavior forms the behavior just as with R+, which makes R+ little more than a function and not an overall solution. Sorry, pardon me, did I forget some citations? How bad would it look if I could use your 'anti' citations to prove MY point? Been here before, many times over.
> 
> Differences aside, Olive branches out, and forget the prong collars, what do you think of the rest of the equipment? Nice, isn't it? Seriously, there's none better or we'd have that instead. Very fussy y'see, it's best or nothing....because that's what our dogs are worth, that's what I use.....because I care!
> 
> A large breed is much strongeyahayahyah, 'give me a fulcrum and a lever and I'll move the world'. The breed is unimportant, from Neopolitan to Papillion each has a common set of traits, the handler and the handlers preconception is the only variable.
> 
> Small dogs? Oh my favorite example. You have Newfoundlands? What would it take to put a collar on and exert force to lift that dog off it's front paws against it? I'd have a go at that tug of war for a larf, but deep down wouldn't really fancy my chances against it...... but to hold back a Jack Russell (aw, c'mon, it's a bench test breed) no probs. So because the dog can't pull me over I'm able to hold them back, but what about the damage to the small dog and not me, did you consider that? No. Prong collars actually protect the dog from the owners!!
> A headcollar can't do that.....really...a headcollar? Do you use headcollars? Do you know what they can do to a Jack Russel and not a Newfoundland? Do you have any idea what a headcollar can do to a Labrador? Dobermans, that's a dog who needs a knowledgable owner. American bulldog, lovely breed with a few quirks. Do you know a staffie that can chew up a railway sleeper despite the owners lament only has a 16" neck in the morning and can grow it by 2 inches by afternoon from all the jaw excersise? Ever seen how badly a specialist police dog walks on a lead? Ever sell a prong collar out your boot on a car park to several members of a vehermently "anti prong collar" organisation? Of course you haven't, but wouldn't you have to be absolutely certain you knew what you were doing if you did, and trust your customer to be sensible? Wouldn't that be worth being able to say "shut up Rob"?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


I have no idea what judo has to do with anything, but of course one would not put a headcollar on a very small dog, at least I wouldn't. It would be too easy to drag his face up and hurt him that way. A non pull harness, however, would suit him very well. It is also a fact that many experts are against walking a small dog on a collar of any kind, because of their delicate necks.

Please stop assuming that every poster on here is just an amateur everyday dog owner with no expertise. Even people who do not call themselves professional trainers have many years of experience with their own dogs and many help rehabilitate dogs in rescue.

We still know how to train a dog even if we are not getting paid for it. Do you? Or do you simply decide to shove a prong collar on your dog's neck without even trying the proper methods?

I look forward to reading the valid arguments you have mentioned and I cannot wait for the _proof_ you are promising.


----------



## Guest

Are we all forgetting! Any collar on any dog is only as good as the person controlling it! Personally I wouldn't ue one of these - but then I am not a fan of head collars either!! PErsonally I find I get more control with a straight forward slip leadgundog lead - and it is all about holding it/using is correctly!

The OP on this thread said that they saw this used at a 'puppy class' was that correct?

And anyone who is for these collars can you please tell me
1. Do you really think it necessary to use one of these on a pup! (or is it even recommended) would it not be better to work on correcting the walk from the very beginning?


----------



## Rottiefan

*Luv My Dogs,*

All I have read so far from you is this stance: "Head collars are much worse than prong collars, thus that gives prong collars the right training method over everything"- doesn't really make sense, does it? 

I appreciate the argument you are putting forward against head collars. I, personally, don't use them because I am strong enough (just) to hold large breeds if they do pull/lunge etc. and to execute the different R+ methods and techniques for LLW and gaining attention. But when someone does want to use one, I always say to 1) allow at least a week for the dog to wear it around the house, at meal times, at play times etc., to sufficiently build a positive association and 2) don't count on it for the rest of your life- it's a training aid, aimed to make training easier, not just walking easier.

You have yet failed to really do anything but support prong collars boasting about your infinite knowledge of them. How about giving us some evidence for your arguments? I will consider your arguments when I see some evidence showing that prong collars are more humane and better training aids than head collars. And how about discussing the evidence we've put forward? The articles and the opinions of integral organisations must count for something, don't you think? You have managed to sweep them under the carpet, so to speak, so far on this thread.


----------



## Guest

Question for love my dog worldwide

Can you answer me the following please

1. Is it possible to put these collars on upsidedown?

2. If the collar is put on upsidedown what are the consequences?

Thanks in advance for your forthcoming reply


----------



## newfiesmum

I am still waiting to read all the posts Luvmydogs_worldwide promised about headcollars being harmful; I am still waiting for the proof about the prong collar which was promised; I am still waiting for an answer to my question: do they also make these things for horses.


----------



## Cleo38

Am looking forward to reading the 'proof' requested by newfiesmum as well!


----------



## RobD-BCactive

I ask Luvmydogs to explain, why :


Cesar Milan was savagely bitten by the Malamute, wearing prong and said "it is not helping, it make him worse", despite being a past advocate. The lady owner bought Cesar a new sweater as his was torn to shreds.
The Bulldog in the "Dogo Argentino" show wearing prong, started leaping about and had to be forcibly controlled by it's owner, with the checking proving ineffective

I have answered very many questions, so I have a right to have an explanation, rather than an attempt to discredit my opinion.


----------



## newfiesmum

Still waiting....................


----------



## Guest

Please could you tell us what experience you actually have of these collars other than selling them?
Also are you the person on another doggy site that has their profile as:
"Having had dogs as companions since birth I couldn't imagine a life without them"

No one on here should take advice that is given as fact unless it comes from a checkable source.
I can find no studies that give facts on injuries from either head collars or pinch collars, loads of bumph from either pro or anti but no facts


----------



## tripod

rona said:


> Please could you tell us what experience you actually have of these collars other than selling them?
> Also are you the person on another doggy site that has their profile as:
> "Having had dogs as companions since birth I couldn't imagine a life without them"
> 
> No one on here should take advice that is given as fact unless it comes from a checkable source.
> I can find no studies that give facts on injuries from either head collars or pinch collars, loads of bumph from either pro or anti but no facts


Hi rona  I posted a number of links to studies in relation to the use of aversives/aversive equipment in dog training somewhere in the doldrums of this thread!
Will find the link... http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/150472-self-correction-collar-5.html#post2343345

Not sure if thats what you're looking for?


----------



## Guest

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Rottiefan, I monitor headcollar issues, I monitor prong collar issues. Before you stake any credibility on this argument please, pretty please with cherries on top read the posts on the forum. Without even picking a single external post I can prove you wrong to an exponential degree. Would you be at least willing to reconsider?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin





tripod said:


> Hi rona  I posted a number of links to studies in relation to the use of aversives/aversive equipment in dog training somewhere in the doldrums of this thread!
> Will find the link... http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/150472-self-correction-collar-5.html#post2343345
> 
> Not sure if thats what you're looking for?


Sorry tripod, I was referring particularly to this post.
I could find various articles from respected sources on the use of these devices but not on injury caused by them or head collars. I know injuries occur but not the severity or quantity.
I will apologies now if somewhere in those links the answer exists, but I'm not interested in training enough to wade through them all


----------



## RobD-BCactive

tripod's post looks even better now, in the light of Luvmydogs various follow ups, which featured far more jibes than any meaningful content.

It was worth posting that conveient link, thanks!


----------



## newfiesmum

I was promised a ticket for a certain train. I want to know what time it is arriving! How long does it take to find a few threads and articles? Oh, well, I suppose another one with empty promises:


----------



## RobD-BCactive

It's funny how the ill informed amatuers voicing their own soapbox opinions had no problem providing sources...
or answering questions, despite not having the benefit of "all the time in the world" or benefit of extensive research for their views.


----------



## newfiesmum

RobD-BCactive said:


> It's funny how the ill informed amatuers voicing their own soapbox opinions had no problem providing sources...
> or answering questions, despite not having the benefit of "all the time in the world" or benefit of extensive research for their views.


Isn't that usually the case? This is one of the "I'm right and you're wrong" brigade, no matter what evidence is put before him.


----------



## RobD-BCactive

Well I agree, I think I mentioned I saw a pattern developing...
we are such bullies, answering questions and expecting the same of others, tut, tut.


----------



## tripod

rona said:


> Sorry tripod, I was referring particularly to this post.
> I could find various articles from respected sources on the use of these devices but not on injury caused by them or head collars. I know injuries occur but not the severity or quantity.
> I will apologies now if somewhere in those links the answer exists, but I'm not interested in training enough to wade through them all


No worries Rona, thought that was what you were looking for.

There is one study that is often mentioned in relation to particularly the physiological issues associated with the use of various collars. It is here referenced by Dr Karen Overall but I have never been able to find an original, full text or raw data???????

I don't know of a study with reliable data on injuries due to head collar usage. Anecdotally and from my experience severe injury to the neck may also be likely where this equipment type is not used properly. Another reason I don't generally recommend head collars - see too many people allowing their dogs to walk to the end and jerk their necks :nono: With the attachment point so high on the neck this has got to contribute to severe neck injury.

If anybody has empirical data on this that would be great.


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

DoubleTrouble said:


> Question for love my dog worldwide
> 
> Can you answer me the following please
> 
> 1. Is it possible to put these collars on upsidedown?
> 
> 2. If the collar is put on upsidedown what are the consequences?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your forthcoming reply


What exactly do you mean by upside down? The lead ring at the bottom under the dogs neck?


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> I was promised a ticket for a certain train. I want to know what time it is arriving! How long does it take to find a few threads and articles? Oh, well, I suppose another one with empty promises:


The haltis and headcollars that cause pressure around the muzzle can, apparently, be painful, you're much better with the ones that lead from the back of the head. At least, that's what a friend of mine who is a qualitifed dog behaviouralist/trainer reckons. (Sleeping Lion)

Give me a slip lead any day over a headcollar. The reason we use headcollars on other animals is due to size and neck strength. Think about the relative position of handler and animal with a horse compared to a dog.

I used a Halti Headcollar with Millie daily for 4-5 weeks when we first got her. It took a good 7-10 days of getting used to it before I actually walked her on it but the patience was worth itI have also today started trying to get our Akita boy used to a Halti. I walked him with it on but his lead was clipped to his collar, il prol do this for all of next week before trying to actually use the Halti. He tried to paw it off a couple of times but soon gave up (He has a very long nose hehe he cant paw it off (Milliepoochie)

Head harnesses are very effective at dealing with the issue because they give you physical control of the dogs head, and where the head goes, the body will follow. But again they have inherent dangers, if the dog lunges or the lead is suddenly yanked then there is a good chance of damage to the neck muscles, which can be just as serious as damage to the windpipe. There is also the problem that they can be quite uncomfortable for many dogs because they fit over the nose, which is a very sensitive area and so they will often object quite strongly to wearing one. (Jasperss Bloke)

Also teaching a dog to heel with directional changes with a slip lead allows the dog a chance to respond to the increasing pressure (basically a negative reward), with a headcollar there is no warning, just snap. This changes the changes the stimulus to a (painful) positive punishment. (Keirk)

He kicked off a major fuss over a halti headcollar and just never got used to it but he has taken to the Canny much better and I can complete his whole walk without getting sore arms! (Verbatim)

i use the halti with buster and he has got out of his a few times but his has the bit that ataches to the collar so its not bn a big issue for me. (shells)

I've used one for years on one of my dogs for the extra security, and I couldn't be without it when walking on the streets, but there has been times in the past when he's broken clean through it. (NoSpecialFeaturesHere)

He can wear it off lead but has a tendancy to rub his nose on the ground to take it off. So I generally only put it on when I am going to put on his lead. He can still eat treats and drink perfectly with it on.

I don't really know how it works but it definitely does - someone told me that it is similar to what they put on horses and when it is over his nose it releases some endorphins (sp?) that make him relax.... (Woody10)

We have tried : training classes, halti, harnesses, controller collar, walking slow or stopping until she releases tension on the lead. Nothing works, she just pulls away. She has used a halti before, like a headcollar she just put her head down and pulled full steam ahead. (Starlight Express)

I prefer the likes of the Canny Collar which has a loop coming from the collar under the dog's chin as opposed to covering across their cheeks etc. Both gentle leaders and haltis I have heard rub into the dog's eyes. (Golden Shadow)

lexie has been wearing a halti on walks everyday for past 6months and she is STILL rubbing at it, not continuously but still will rub at my legs with it, rub on the ground and sometimes scratch at itshe still needs it as she pulls like a workhorse if its not on, she walks lovely and loose with it on and i want to keep that going. (Lexie2010)

Yep, Flynn does and used to with a Halti too. (re rebbing heads with dogmatics) (Malsmum)

radders doesnt rub at his head any more.. (we've barely been a month with it) he has a halti too. the problem starts when we take it off.......... he runs around like an idiot scratching where the halti has been..... (lizzyboo)

I would go with a dogmatic over a halti though, as Duke's halti is constantly riding in his eyes. (NicoleW)

I have always used a Halti but have recently got a Dogmatic head collar and find it so much better as it stays put on the head and doesn't ride up into the eyes. (Malsmum)

Her walking has improved massively albeit with help from the gencon headcollar, but this is just kept loose and I was using just as a back up really as it was starting to hurt when she suddenly yanked towards a dog or something. (huskylover)

Yes my OH bought a head collar, and has been working with her with it on their walks, but she just constantly trying to get it off (ellebelle)

One of the problems with headcollars is that most dogs need conditioning into thinking its a positive thing otherwise they spend the entire time trying to get it off as it feels very unnatural for them. (HWAR)

I have a double - ended lead and clip one end to Kilo's collar and one to the dogmatic for safety. It is more expensive than most headcollars but is padded and doesn't ride up into the eyes and seems well tolerated. (Dogless)

To be honest the best this to stop a dog coughing or choking is something like a halti head harness as it applies no pressure what so ever to the chest and throat but my dog hates them with a passion and for the number of times she ends up coughing i'll stick with the harness. (LexiLou2)

So, you said...... head collars aren't an aversive, are safe, don't cause injury??


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> I was promised a ticket for a certain train. I want to know what time it is arriving! How long does it take to find a few threads and articles? Oh, well, I suppose another one with empty promises:


You weren't offered a ticket to anything btw. However, here's the harness version:

I used a Halti anti-pull harness (Rob)

One of the first signs of an ineffective harness is bald spots under the front arm pits where the harness has rubbed and if allowed to continue this can cause severe discomfort, constant lunging against a harness can also cause skeletal/spinal problems, especially in young or developing dogs. (Jaspers Bloke)

I agree, harnesses do have their problems, because mine is so sensitive on her chest and throat she has a chest plate to spread any pressure she puts on it, but her chest is pretty much bald as a result, and thats from a dog that doesn't pull, just the harness rubbing against her chest on her walks, so I don't know what damage it would do if she was constantly lunging and pulling. (LexiLou2)

I had a dog that pulled so bad on a harness that he got sores on his chest. (PoisonGirl)

I found the walkeze rubbed under Zippers armpits and was very uncomforatable for him (I think it depends on the dogs body shape)
The Halti needed to be contantly readjusted as it seemed to work it's self loose. (Fleur)

i tried a harness but it just gave him somthing to pull forward on. Mostly he walks very well on a collar, sometimes he pulls forward on the collar but my thinking is, if it hursts him he wouldnt do it right? (Marley Boy)

I tried the harness for my first springer and he pulled more he actuallt rubbed the front arm pits sore, the head collar didnt help much either that caused other problems (Haeveymolly)

A harness for my Mals is disastrous - they are natural pullers on a harness - so you views are not taking into account how different breeds would walk on one.
(Malmum)

the halti body harness does seem to work great when use with the double ended lead but i`ve found it loosens as we walk and that slack then starts the pulling again. it`s a bit of a nightmare as he never was bad at pulling on the lead really but recently he`s become way too powerful for me to walk so unless i use a head collar right now i can`t walk him and he hates the head collar. (leah84)

It consists of just 3 straps, one goes over the dogs shoulders, the second under their belly (so you have a loop around them, just behind the front legs) and a final strap that goes across the front of the chest from shoulder to shoulder. The front strap has a webbing loop with a ring on it to attach the lead. It works like a martingale collar, tightening very slightly across the chest under tension, but because the lead is attached to the front of the harness, any pulling into the harness will push the dog around in front of you. (Jaspers Bloke)

er....harnesses that tighten, rub, release the dogs.....and they're not painful, cause injury or aren't aversives? Meh.


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> Well I agree, I think I mentioned I saw a pattern developing...
> we are such bullies, answering questions and expecting the same of others, tut, tut.


Rob, regarding the studies and book smarts, how much of that have you scrutinised or understand? Since we already know you're not against using aversives by your own admission, do you REALLY think 100% R+ can give results, or even can R+ give 100% effective results to all situations?


----------



## Rottiefan

Luv My Dogs:

The difference is, people who are having trouble with harnesses and head collars potentially causing discomfort or damage either 1) try a different one that is more suited to the dog or 2) abandon it altogether. They realise that these are not meant or designed to aversive. Yes, they can cause problems if not used correctly, but that does not make them an aversive. 

But people using self correction collars and KNOW that it is using pain and discomfort as a training aid are willingly using these against their dogs because they can't find any other way to train their dogs. This is what the collars are based on. This is why I don't like them. It's laziness.


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Rottiefan said:


> *Luv My Dogs,*
> 
> All I have read so far from you is this stance: "Head collars are much worse than prong collars, thus that gives prong collars the right training method over everything"- doesn't really make sense, does it?
> 
> I appreciate the argument you are putting forward against head collars. I, personally, don't use them because I am strong enough (just) to hold large breeds if they do pull/lunge etc. and to execute the different R+ methods and techniques for LLW and gaining attention. But when someone does want to use one, I always say to 1) allow at least a week for the dog to wear it around the house, at meal times, at play times etc., to sufficiently build a positive association and 2) don't count on it for the rest of your life- it's a training aid, aimed to make training easier, not just walking easier.
> 
> You have yet failed to really do anything but support prong collars boasting about your infinite knowledge of them. How about giving us some evidence for your arguments? I will consider your arguments when I see some evidence showing that prong collars are more humane and better training aids than head collars. And how about discussing the evidence we've put forward? The articles and the opinions of integral organisations must count for something, don't you think? You have managed to sweep them under the carpet, so to speak, so far on this thread.


Lets examine the average studies put forward in behavioral degrees that get so misused in arguments on these boards:
"We sent out 400 questionaires and of the 179 we recieved back could possibly conclude but won't catagorically state that......we were right"

Then there's the other version, my favorite in fact, often used to prove a point on R+ completely out of context:
"we took 20 dogs, asked 10 handlers to use non aversive techniques, the other 10 to use extreme or rondomly wierd aversives....... our results show, not conclusively, but might be used to show.....the non aversives had a slightly less mixed bag of results"
Normally followed by some equally confused poster going "yeah, see..." like they've justifued their point no matter how tenuous or incorrect it's relevence.

Pardon me for being sceptical about biased or purposly worked studies to tell us what we already know as common sense. Before you ask, yes, I've read these studies, yes I also have degrees, yes my degrees include training and behavior although not specifically in dogs, and yes I'm prepared to question the information presented. I'm not the one unwilling to use a balanced mix of training either providing it's suitable to the situation instead of blindly putting all my faith in R+ which is a function of training and not a solution.

_All I have read so far from you is this stance: "Head collars are much worse than prong collars, thus that gives prong collars the right training method over everything"- doesn't really make sense, does it?_

No, what you've read is a stance towards people who only know of 2 aversives. Prong collars and eCollars. Tell people who use them how evil they are because they cause pain, trauma, and injury.....then go and recommend headcollars for everyone. This frustrates me because when you point out a headcollar does exactly what they dislike and is also an aversive they CANNOT put two and two together to see the link and keep arguing about how dangerous the prong is, when for some dogs and in some situations it's far safer and is a more suitable choice and should be considered for use equally. Therefore the arguments "don't like em, haven;t used one, would never use one, but...." and start expressing their opinion as fact get swept under the carpet and treated as background forum noise.

I've done my bit, given you posts about damage caused by headcollars and harnesses, now do the same for me on prong collars and we can get a serious discussion that won't waste everyones time.

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> I ask Luvmydogs to explain, why :
> 
> 
> Cesar Milan was savagely bitten by the Malamute, wearing prong and said "it is not helping, it make him worse", despite being a past advocate. The lady owner bought Cesar a new sweater as his was torn to shreds.
> The Bulldog in the "Dogo Argentino" show wearing prong, started leaping about and had to be forcibly controlled by it's owner, with the checking proving ineffective
> 
> I have answered very many questions, so I have a right to have an explanation, rather than an attempt to discredit my opinion.


Ah, finally 2 random examples for explanation.

1) Because it's the wrong tool for the job, evident by the reaction. What else do you want to read into that? Does this never happen with "normal" collars?
2) Because not every tool is 100% effective in every scenario. What else do you want to read into that? Does this never happen with "normal" collars?

Now, what would R+ do that would solve both these issues instead and prove 100% effective?

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

DoubleTrouble said:


> And anyone who is for these collars can you please tell me
> 1. Do you really think it necessary to use one of these on a pup! (or is it even recommended) would it not be better to work on correcting the walk from the very beginning?


There is no substitute for training. If a particular method is ineffective then there's no reason not to try alternatives until the most suitable is found. Using the prong might not be the sole solution, but if it's keeping undesirable traits under control and creates a situation where training can be effective so other methods of keeping the undesirable traits under control can replace the prong then why not use it? How does that make it differ from any other training tool or become less of a valid choice? The prong is simply an aid to assist training while correcting the walk, then there's no reason to continue using it. There are worse tools to use in every situation, and in some the prong would also be the wrong one, it's not a miracle cure after all.

regards,

Austin


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## newfiesmum

The majority of the quotes you have given regarding headcollars seem to be in favour of them, not against. I certainly would never say they are right for every dog, but I would say that a prong collar is wrong for every dog.

As to the other post about studies, where have they come from? I would like to see a link to these studies, please, not just your interpretation of them. For all we know, your quotes could well be taken out of context.

There is no reason to use anything painful on any animal, particularly an animal as social as a dog.


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## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Ah, finally 2 random examples for explanation.
> 
> 1) Because it's the wrong tool for the job, evident by the reaction. What else do you want to read into that? Does this never happen with "normal" collars?
> 2) Because not every tool is 100% effective in every scenario. What else do you want to read into that? Does this never happen with "normal" collars?
> 
> Now, what would R+ do that would solve both these issues instead and prove 100% effective?


At last some answer, you ignored it previously preferring to throw derision, my way.

Austin, a well known professional got multiple severe bites, I have *never* seen that happen to someone walking a dog with a "normal" collar (not even on the naughty dog shows) and absolutely never to someone not using aversive forceful methods.

Furthrmore you claimed, your product was easy and effective, but now it appears not to be suitable in the problem cases, first touted.

Malamute - clearly fear aggressive, required careful gradual desensitising, not application of pain and force
Bulldog - anti-pull harness plus, careful gradual desensitising. The Prong using owner IMO was a Bully who relied on force, simply because he fell for a quick fix product rather than educating himself.


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## Dogless

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> The haltis and headcollars that cause pressure around the muzzle can, apparently, be painful, you're much better with the ones that lead from the back of the head. At least, that's what a friend of mine who is a qualitifed dog behaviouralist/trainer reckons. (Sleeping Lion)
> 
> Give me a slip lead any day over a headcollar. The reason we use headcollars on other animals is due to size and neck strength. Think about the relative position of handler and animal with a horse compared to a dog.
> 
> I used a Halti Headcollar with Millie daily for 4-5 weeks when we first got her. It took a good 7-10 days of getting used to it before I actually walked her on it but the patience was worth itI have also today started trying to get our Akita boy used to a Halti. I walked him with it on but his lead was clipped to his collar, il prol do this for all of next week before trying to actually use the Halti. He tried to paw it off a couple of times but soon gave up (He has a very long nose hehe he cant paw it off (Milliepoochie)
> 
> Head harnesses are very effective at dealing with the issue because they give you physical control of the dogs head, and where the head goes, the body will follow. But again they have inherent dangers, if the dog lunges or the lead is suddenly yanked then there is a good chance of damage to the neck muscles, which can be just as serious as damage to the windpipe. There is also the problem that they can be quite uncomfortable for many dogs because they fit over the nose, which is a very sensitive area and so they will often object quite strongly to wearing one. (Jasperss Bloke)
> 
> Also teaching a dog to heel with directional changes with a slip lead allows the dog a chance to respond to the increasing pressure (basically a negative reward), with a headcollar there is no warning, just snap. This changes the changes the stimulus to a (painful) positive punishment. (Keirk)
> 
> He kicked off a major fuss over a halti headcollar and just never got used to it but he has taken to the Canny much better and I can complete his whole walk without getting sore arms! (Verbatim)
> 
> i use the halti with buster and he has got out of his a few times but his has the bit that ataches to the collar so its not bn a big issue for me. (shells)
> 
> I've used one for years on one of my dogs for the extra security, and I couldn't be without it when walking on the streets, but there has been times in the past when he's broken clean through it. (NoSpecialFeaturesHere)
> 
> He can wear it off lead but has a tendancy to rub his nose on the ground to take it off. So I generally only put it on when I am going to put on his lead. He can still eat treats and drink perfectly with it on.
> 
> I don't really know how it works but it definitely does - someone told me that it is similar to what they put on horses and when it is over his nose it releases some endorphins (sp?) that make him relax.... (Woody10)
> 
> We have tried : training classes, halti, harnesses, controller collar, walking slow or stopping until she releases tension on the lead. Nothing works, she just pulls away. She has used a halti before, like a headcollar she just put her head down and pulled full steam ahead. (Starlight Express)
> 
> I prefer the likes of the Canny Collar which has a loop coming from the collar under the dog's chin as opposed to covering across their cheeks etc. Both gentle leaders and haltis I have heard rub into the dog's eyes. (Golden Shadow)
> 
> lexie has been wearing a halti on walks everyday for past 6months and she is STILL rubbing at it, not continuously but still will rub at my legs with it, rub on the ground and sometimes scratch at itshe still needs it as she pulls like a workhorse if its not on, she walks lovely and loose with it on and i want to keep that going. (Lexie2010)
> 
> Yep, Flynn does and used to with a Halti too. (re rebbing heads with dogmatics) (Malsmum)
> 
> radders doesnt rub at his head any more.. (we've barely been a month with it) he has a halti too. the problem starts when we take it off.......... he runs around like an idiot scratching where the halti has been..... (lizzyboo)
> 
> I would go with a dogmatic over a halti though, as Duke's halti is constantly riding in his eyes. (NicoleW)
> 
> I have always used a Halti but have recently got a Dogmatic head collar and find it so much better as it stays put on the head and doesn't ride up into the eyes. (Malsmum)
> 
> Her walking has improved massively albeit with help from the gencon headcollar, but this is just kept loose and I was using just as a back up really as it was starting to hurt when she suddenly yanked towards a dog or something. (huskylover)
> 
> Yes my OH bought a head collar, and has been working with her with it on their walks, but she just constantly trying to get it off (ellebelle)
> 
> One of the problems with headcollars is that most dogs need conditioning into thinking its a positive thing otherwise they spend the entire time trying to get it off as it feels very unnatural for them. (HWAR)
> 
> I have a double - ended lead and clip one end to Kilo's collar and one to the dogmatic for safety. It is more expensive than most headcollars but is padded and doesn't ride up into the eyes and seems well tolerated. (Dogless)
> 
> To be honest the best this to stop a dog coughing or choking is something like a halti head harness as it applies no pressure what so ever to the chest and throat but my dog hates them with a passion and for the number of times she ends up coughing i'll stick with the harness. (LexiLou2)
> 
> So, you said...... head collars aren't an aversive, are safe, don't cause injury??


I was just catching up with this thread and noticed my name. I agree that I use a collar and the headcollar for safety; Kilo is walked on a collar and the headcollar is used for extra control. I agree that purely the headcollar may cause harm if he made a sudden dart for something which is why I am careful that I control him on his flat collar too and continue to work hard on his loose lead training.

Surely ANY device used to control a dog can be unsafe if a strong dog makes a sudden lunge for anything; be it flat collar, slip lead, choke chain etc? Nothing is ever totally safe but I think that the best we can do is to minimise the risk to our dogs and ourselves using the least aversive methods possible?


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> At last some answer, you ignored it previously preferring to throw derision, my way.
> 
> Austin, a well known professional got multiple severe bites, I have *never* seen that happen to someone walking a dog with a "normal" collar (not even on the naughty dog shows) and absolutely never to someone not using aversive forceful methods.
> 
> Furthrmore you claimed, your product was easy and effective, but now it appears not to be suitable in the problem cases, first touted.
> 
> Malamute - clearly fear aggressive, required careful gradual desensitising, not application of pain and force
> Bulldog - anti-pull harness plus, careful gradual desensitising. The Prong using owner IMO was a Bully who relied on force, simply because he fell for a quick fix product rather than educating himself.


Rob,

Is that the only time Ceasar has been bitten? No. Is that the only time anyone has been bitten by a dog? No. Are you seriously saying dogs in flat buckle collars don't bite people? Please, some reality checks Rob? Want to blame the other collar as well? Or maybe the situation just isn't as clear cut as you'd like to think.
Yes, the prong collar is easy and effective, but to pick a couple of minutes of video without knowing the dog, circumstance, back history, previous methods, previous equipment, and just show a dog freaking out for a completely unknown reason, then saying "see, proves X ......." is just plain stupid.
Would it help if I posted several Youtube vids of dogs walking nicely on prongs? Would that mean every dog in the world, ever, would walk nicely on a prong? And you wonder why I take your posts with a large pinch of salt.

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> The majority of the quotes you have given regarding headcollars seem to be in favour of them, not against. I certainly would never say they are right for every dog, but I would say that a prong collar is wrong for every dog.
> 
> As to the other post about studies, where have they come from? I would like to see a link to these studies, please, not just your interpretation of them. For all we know, your quotes could well be taken out of context.
> 
> There is no reason to use anything painful on any animal, particularly an animal as social as a dog.


Really? I see some common issues:



Aversive
Anxiety
Agitation
Injury
Poor quality
Poor fit
Ineffetive

But since you recommend the dogmatic for every single owner without a clue of the potential hazzards why am I not suprised?

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Dogless said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> I was just catching up with this thread and noticed my name. I agree that I use a collar and the headcollar for safety; Kilo is walked on a collar and the headcollar is used for extra control. I agree that purely the headcollar may cause harm if he made a sudden dart for something which is why I am careful that I control him on his flat collar too and continue to work hard on his loose lead training.
> 
> Surely ANY device used to control a dog can be unsafe if a strong dog makes a sudden lunge for anything; be it flat collar, slip lead, choke chain etc? Nothing is ever totally safe but I think that the best we can do is to minimise the risk to our dogs and ourselves using the least aversive methods possible?


So, could it be concievable that a prong might be the least aversive?


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Rottiefan said:


> Luv My Dogs:
> 
> Yes, they can cause problems if not used correctly, but that does not make them an aversive.
> 
> But people using self correction collars and KNOW that it is using pain and discomfort as a training aid are willingly using these against their dogs because they can't find any other way to train their dogs. This is what the collars are based on. This is why I don't like them. It's laziness.


*sigh*

Ok, how does a headcollar work? Talk me through it.


----------



## newfiesmum

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Really? I see some common issues:
> 
> 
> 
> Aversive
> Anxiety
> Agitation
> Injury
> Poor quality
> Poor fit
> Ineffetive
> 
> But since you recommend the dogmatic for every single owner without a clue of the potential hazzards why am I not suprised?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


I never said that at all. I did in fact say that headcollars do not always work for every dog, but if you are going to try one, the dogmatic is better fitted and cushioned and does not ride up.



LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Ok, how does a headcollar work? Talk me through it.


I already did. The headcollar works by keeping the dogs nose down, thus preventing him from pulling. Obviously, some dogs will spend all their time trying to paw it off, some bad handlers will only try to restrain the nose when they see a danger, usually when it is too late. I have even seen people using them with an extendable lead which is dangerous to the dog's neck.


----------



## Dogless

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> So, could it be concievable that a prong might be the least aversive?


Not sure how you make the leap from my opinion on headcollars to prongs being the least aversive of all methods; I think a flat collar without added control at present in some situations would be aversive to Kilo, never mind one with prongs on (I do not use a headcollar all the time, but in very stimulating environments).

I do not like the idea of prongs full stop and believe them to be aversive, perhaps not the MOST aversive, but nevertheless I will never use one.

I have just taken my dog for a walk - he willingly put his nose through the dogmatic for me, sat quietly whilst it was fastened and then trotted along very happily indeed on his walk. If it caused him discomfort or anxiety I am sure that he would let me know.


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> I never said that at all. I did in fact say that headcollars do not always work for every dog, but if you are going to try one, the dogmatic is better fitted and cushioned and does not ride up.
> 
> I already did. The headcollar works by keeping the dogs nose down, thus preventing him from pulling. Obviously, some dogs will spend all their time trying to paw it off, some bad handlers will only try to restrain the nose when they see a danger, usually when it is too late. I have even seen people using them with an extendable lead which is dangerous to the dog's neck.


Ok, last time. HOW does it keep the nose down? I want the mechanics of the equipment, (BTW the Halti doesn't pull the nose down).

Just to be clear.....pawing = anxiety, discomfort and pain.

regards,

Austin


----------



## newfiesmum

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Ok, last time. HOW does it keep the nose down? I want the mechanics of the equipment, (BTW the Halti doesn't pull the nose down).
> 
> Just to be clear.....pawing = anxiety, discomfort and pain.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


Well obviously it doesn't keep the nose down on its own. That is where it has to be used properly, and I don't mean keeping his nose right down I mean keeping it at a normal walking level, so that it doesn't push forward and allow the dog to pull. Used properly a halti is also suitable for this, though I don't like them myself.

Pawing, anxiety, discomfort? Not in my experience, but as I have already said, they are not suitable for all dogs.


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Dogless said:


> Not sure how you make the leap from my opinion on headcollars to prongs being the least aversive of all methods; I think a flat collar without added control at present in some situations would be aversive to Kilo, never mind one with prongs on (I do not use a headcollar all the time, but in very stimulating environments).
> 
> I do not like the idea of prongs full stop and believe them to be aversive, perhaps not the MOST aversive, but nevertheless I will never use one.
> 
> I have just taken my dog for a walk - he willingly put his nose through the dogmatic for me, sat quietly whilst it was fastened and then trotted along very happily indeed on his walk. If it caused him discomfort or anxiety I am sure that he would let me know.


I didn't make a leap based on your opinion, I asked a question, and not specifically for your dog. The prong collar and the flat collar are not equal comparisons, that's the point of them. If a dog won't walk on a flat collar then the prong collar can be a less aversive option. Again, your dog is fine with a headcollar, but you're aware that with other dogs a common issue is having them ride up into their eyes, which incidentally usually rubs the muzzle on the way up too. So by a simple deduction headcollars can and do cause pain. The reason I keep labouring over this point is hopefully establish the flaw in some of the detractors argument and hopefully make at least one question thier case. It's this simple:

Assumption: Prong collars are aversive and cause pain. But.....
Fact proved: Headcollars are aversive and cause pain. Another but......
Headcollars are ok and prongs aren't. Isn't that like arguing it's better to be stabbed than shot?

Is no-one actually seeing the irony? Then the follow up:

Statement: Headcollars don't hurt every dog.
Fact proved: Prong collars don't hurt every dog.
Then usually followed by "I've never used a prong and never will, because they cause pain", so now not only is it ironic, it's turned into denial based on no actual experience, then defended like they've just proved E=MC2.

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> Well obviously it doesn't keep the nose down on its own. That is where it has to be used properly, and I don't mean keeping his nose right down I mean keeping it at a normal walking level, so that it doesn't push forward and allow the dog to pull.


Ok, so it's becoming aparant you're either avoiding giving the answer, or don't actually understand how the headcollar works either. So....

How does it keep the nose down?

(There's no way to ask this without being faecious, sorry. Do you think the dog's pawing at the headcollar because it likes how the leather/nylon feels against it's claws? Why would you try and take something off unless it was bothering you? Or uncomfortable? Or painful? What if you couldn't take it off, would you just put up with the discomfort and ignore it, or start to feel a little aggitated?)

regards,

Austin


----------



## newfiesmum

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> I didn't make a leap based on your opinion, I asked a question, and not specifically for your dog. The prong collar and the flat collar are not equal comparisons, that's the point of them. If a dog won't walk on a flat collar then the prong collar can be a less aversive option. Again, your dog is fine with a headcollar, but you're aware that with other dogs a common issue is having them ride up into their eyes, which incidentally usually rubs the muzzle on the way up too. So by a simple deduction headcollars can and do cause pain. The reason I keep labouring over this point is hopefully establish the flaw in some of the detractors argument and hopefully make at least one question thier case. It's this simple:
> 
> Assumption: Prong collars are aversive and cause pain. But.....
> Fact proved: Headcollars are aversive and cause pain. Another but......
> Headcollars are ok and prongs aren't. Isn't that like arguing it's better to be stabbed than shot?
> 
> Is no-one actually seeing the irony? Then the follow up:
> 
> Statement: Headcollars don't hurt every dog.
> Fact proved: *Prong collars don't hurt every dog*.
> Then usually followed by "I've never used a prong and never will, because they cause pain", so now not only is it ironic, it's turned into denial based on no actual experience, then defended like they've just proved E=MC2.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


If the dog is a puller, a prong collar will hurt it. If he isn't a puller, there is no earthly point in using one. If a dog cannot get on with a headcollar, there are other options which do not involve any sort of pain or discomfort, from the K9 bridle (again a headcollar, but clipped at the back) to a non pull, front clip harness, the type without stringy straps which cut in.

Or there is simple training, which of course takes a long time.


----------



## newfiesmum

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Ok, so it's becoming aparant you're either avoiding giving the answer, or don't actually understand how the headcollar works either. So....
> 
> How does it keep the nose down?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


You have quoted my answer but haven't bothered to read it - amazing. I have just told you how the HANDLER can keep the nose down with a headcollar, that is the whole point of them. Unlike a prong collar, which the dog pulls against and it hurts, it is up to the handler to use the headcollar properly. Perhaps that is too much for you to do.


----------



## Dogless

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> I didn't make a leap based on your opinion, I asked a question, and not specifically for your dog. The prong collar and the flat collar are not equal comparisons, that's the point of them. If a dog won't walk on a flat collar then the prong collar can be a less aversive option. Again, your dog is fine with a headcollar, but you're aware that with other dogs a common issue is having them ride up into their eyes, which incidentally usually rubs the muzzle on the way up too. So by a simple deduction headcollars can and do cause pain. The reason I keep labouring over this point is hopefully establish the flaw in some of the detractors argument and hopefully make at least one question thier case. It's this simple:
> 
> Assumption: Prong collars are aversive and cause pain. But.....
> Fact proved: Headcollars are aversive and cause pain. Another but......
> Headcollars are ok and prongs aren't. Isn't that like arguing it's better to be stabbed than shot?
> 
> Is no-one actually seeing the irony? Then the follow up:
> 
> Statement: Headcollars don't hurt every dog.
> Fact proved: Prong collars don't hurt every dog.
> Then usually followed by "I've never used a prong and never will, because they cause pain", so now not only is it ironic, it's turned into denial based on no actual experience, then defended like they've just proved E=MC2.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


To answer the question; it inconceivable to me that prong collars are the least aversive.

I can only give my opinion based upon what suits my dog, and have not talked about every dog as it would be impossible to do so.

I see a prong as far more aversive in my case as Kilo walks nicely on a flat collar most of the time, but if he sees something and makes a lunge for it I would imagine coming to a sudden stop on a prong would be much more painful than a normal flat collar.

I do, however recognise that coming to a sudden stop on a headcollar could do serious damage, hence the collar also being attached to the lead so I can control him much better and he cannot lunge and cause himself (and me!!) damage.

I do not want to use any aversives full stop on my dog so stand by my statement that I will never use a prong.

This whole thread to be honest now is just going round and round (I only joined as I saw my name in one of your posts). I think all that can be deduced really is that the use of prongs / headcollars is very much 'each to their own' and never the twain shall meet.


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Dogless said:


> I see a prong as far more aversive in my case as Kilo walks nicely on a flat collar most of the time, but if he sees something and makes a lunge for it I would imagine coming to a sudden stop on a prong would be much more painful than a normal flat collar.
> 
> I do, however recognise that coming to a sudden stop on a headcollar could do serious damage....
> 
> I do not want to use any aversives full stop on my dog so stand by my statement that I will never use a prong.


The police have recorded instances of dogs breaking their necks lunging against flat collars. They don't have any records of that when they used prongs.

Yes, a sudden stop against a headcollar can be disasterous.

A headcollar is an aversive. You're using one. Face it, accept it, there's no shame in using aversives. Is an aversive breaking the bond between you and your dog? Is an aversive causing your dog anxiety and pain? Is your dog responding positively to an aversive? According to some R+ evangelists that cannot happen, your dog should hate you and shut down.

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> You have quoted my answer but haven't bothered to read it - amazing. I have just told you how the HANDLER can keep the nose down with a headcollar, that is the whole point of them. Unlike a prong collar, which the dog pulls against and it hurts, it is up to the handler to use the headcollar properly. Perhaps that is too much for you to do.


Pressure!! It keeps the nose down by pressure. The headcollar faeries don't cast a spell on your dog when you put it on, you physically apply pressure to affect your dogs posture, and that's AVERSIVE. If the handler applies it it can be measured to a degree, you're using the effects of an aversive to achieve a desired response. If the dog lunges the pressure is random and uncontrolled amount, that's where injuries come from. Do you think that pressure automatically means pain, or does the amount of pressure determine if there's pain or not pain?

Sheesh, I'm not trying to be rude, but you really don't understand how your equipment works. I'm almost scared to explain prong collars to you because I honestly don't think you're going to be able to grasp it. I appreciate you mean well, but to be this persistant and this badly misinformed leads me to just one conclusion. Perhaps it's best you take the time to research equipment before you argue about it?

regards,

Austin


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## Colette

Here's how I see it:

Headcollars and prong collars can both cause injury. Headcollars can cause neck injuries if jerked because of the way the head is controlled. Prong collars can cause the same type of injury as any other collar around the neck, plus in extreme cases may cause punture wounds. (I appreciate this is extreme but it does happen).
Both headcollars and prong collars can be aversive.

So why do I think one is any better than the other?

Headcollars are not meant to be aversive. They are not intended to be used as negative reinforcement or positive punishment, not to "train" the dog at all - they are simply meant to be a managemet device. If fitted and used correctly they should physically prevent pulling - not punish it. As has been mentioned before they also have the benefit that they can be used to guide the dogs head to break their focus - eg to stop them eyeing up another dog - in order to prevent an unwanted response.

Prong collars are designed purely to be aversives - to be used for both negative reinforcement and positive punishment. They do not prevent unwanted behaviour like pulling by any mechanical means - they simply punish it by causing an unpleasent sensation that may be perceived as anything from mild discomfort to severe pain depending on the dog / handler / situation.

As an analogy - if I put you in a room and wanted you to stay in there I could use a management technique, such as locking the door to prevent escape, or I could punish your attempts to escape by electrifying the door handle. Either method may work, but only one is unpleasent / painful. 

That for me is the big difference - a properly fitted, correctly used headcollar is not aversive at all. A prong collar is always aversive.

I don't believe anyone has said that the use of any aversive will destroy the bond with the dog, etc. However, it is very well established that aversives do carry this risk. They can cause various problems, from physical injury, to fear and aggression, to learned helplessness.

There are a great many methods and tools out there - I do not see why anyone would choose to use aversives, which are unpleasent by definition and high risk, when alternatives exist.

One more thing I want to comment on - its not as if headcollars and prongs are the only tools / methods out there - there are many. Some rely on aversives - from the very mild to the downright abusive - some R+, some P-, some a mix.
Rather than debating whether the potential problems with headcollars means that prongs are great (which mankes no sense to me anyway), perhaps we could consider that we could just train dogs rather than relying on equipment?


----------



## Rottiefan

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Ok, how does a headcollar work? Talk me through it.


Pressure CAN be used with head collars, but I don't advocate this usage. I would even say that if you think that head collars are aversive, you don't know how they are supposed to work.

So if they are not creating pain, what do you think they are doing?


----------



## Rottiefan

^^ Well Colette beat you to it, it seems! Head collars, if used correctly, do not allow dogs to pull as every time a dog tries to pull, their head will turn around naturally, meaning it can't pull. The front clip harness is the same. If you think this is less painful than a prong collar, I can't understand your logic at all.


----------



## Colette

One last thing before I crash for the night - about pressure and pain....

Pressure = force / area.

A certain amount of force spread over a larger surface area results in much less pressure than the same amount of force spread over a smaller surface area.
It's like the difference between someone treading on your toe wearing flat boots or stilletos. The same amount of pressure may be applied, but one is considerably more painful than the other!

The same is true for collars. On a standard sized flat collar there is a reasonable surface area, so any force exerted will cause relatively little pressure. A collar with a lower surface area will result in more pressure from the same amount of force.
So, even without getting into the extra issue of collars that constrict, a chain collar will result in greater pressure than a fabric or leather collar, and a prong collar even more than that.

Whether the pressure is perceived as pressure (ie mild discomfort) or as pain will depend on the individuals own pain threshold, and the amount of pressure. It should go without saying that as prssure increases, so does the likelihood of causing pain.

By its design a prong collar has absolutely minimal surface area - so the amount of pressure exerted on those few small contact points is enourmous even with a relatively low level of force used. 
Thus, a prong is far more likely to cause pain than a flat collar.

As for headcollars - they may not be as wide as a standard flat collar but they still have a far greater surface area than a prong collar, so again the same amount of force applied will cause less pressure, and thus less is less likely to cause pain.

On the flip side, the concept that a wide surface area reduces pressure and is thus less aversive and less dangerous is the very reason that sighthound collars are designed to be extra wide. As breeds that can accelerate at high speeds (potentially exerting massive force) and with relatively fragile necks due to their build, extra wide collars are favoured as being kinder and safer.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Rottiefan said:


> Pressure CAN be used with head collars, but I don't advocate this usage. I would even say that if you think that head collars are aversive, you don't know how they are supposed to work.
> 
> So if they are not creating pain, what do you think they are doing?
> 
> ^^ Well Colette beat you to it, it seems! Head collars, if used correctly, do not allow dogs to pull as every time a dog tries to pull, their head will turn around naturally, meaning it can't pull. The front clip harness is the same. If you think this is less painful than a prong collar, I can't understand your logic at all.


When a dog tries to pull, it's head doesn't turn around "naturally", it turns around because the forward motion of the body continues, but the fixed position of the head being help by a lead doesn't move, so the neck turns. What force do you think is acting on the headcollar.....go on, guess..could it be....oh no, is it...PRESSURE?

If the handler decides to turn the dog head, they pull a lead, which provides....and you'll never believe this....PRESSURE.

If you cause a dog to change it's position, or attempt to influence behavior by changing its position you need pressure through the headcollar....and that's an aversive use. No guessing, no speculation, no maybe about it. It's aversive manipulation. FACT.

Do you honestly mean to tell me forcably moving the dogs neck by pulling on it's face is natural? A prong works by a different application of pressure, relies on totally different reactions to that pressure, mostly instinctual and a reaction shared by both you and I. Would you rather be adjusted in your position by a finger poking you to guide you, or me physically moving your head?

Seems you might not understand either collar as well as you believe.

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Colette said:


> One last thing before I crash for the night - about pressure and pain....
> 
> Pressure = force / area.
> 
> A certain amount of force spread over a larger surface area results in much less pressure than the same amount of force spread over a smaller surface area.
> It's like the difference between someone treading on your toe wearing flat boots or stilletos. The same amount of pressure may be applied, but one is considerably more painful than the other!
> 
> The same is true for collars. On a standard sized flat collar there is a reasonable surface area, so any force exerted will cause relatively little pressure. A collar with a lower surface area will result in more pressure from the same amount of force.
> So, even without getting into the extra issue of collars that constrict, a chain collar will result in greater pressure than a fabric or leather collar, and a prong collar even more than that.
> 
> Whether the pressure is perceived as pressure (ie mild discomfort) or as pain will depend on the individuals own pain threshold, and the amount of pressure. It should go without saying that as prssure increases, so does the likelihood of causing pain.
> 
> By its design a prong collar has absolutely minimal surface area - so the amount of pressure exerted on those few small contact points is enourmous even with a relatively low level of force used.
> Thus, a prong is far more likely to cause pain than a flat collar.
> 
> As for headcollars - they may not be as wide as a standard flat collar but they still have a far greater surface area than a prong collar, so again the same amount of force applied will cause less pressure, and thus less is less likely to cause pain.
> 
> On the flip side, the concept that a wide surface area reduces pressure and is thus less aversive and less dangerous is the very reason that sighthound collars are designed to be extra wide. As breeds that can accelerate at high speeds (potentially exerting massive force) and with relatively fragile necks due to their build, extra wide collars are favoured as being kinder and safer.


Wrong, but the most convincing argument so far. It's late, I'll explain this properly to you when I get time and since you understand the basics of pressure and force this will be an eye opener for you. Your assumptions are the exact reverse, because you're omiting the vital reaction to the pressure and that's why a flat collar causes more damage than a prong collar can.

BTW, puncture wounds? Care to prove that with my fav pic?

regards,

Austin


----------



## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Yes, the prong collar is easy and effective, but to pick a couple of minutes of video without knowing the dog


No Austin, a Prong appears ineffective when featured on TV; I believe due to aversive effect actually in long run counter-productive, for the reasons already explained in this thread. This explains why your product has featured on CM The DW's show so frequently on the "before" dogs not the "afters" despite him at one time suggesting Prong's usage in cases.

Thank you for admitting, that your product is not suitable without careful consideration of the case. Unfortunately quick-fixes tend to be purchased with little thought or research, but bought on the "I'll give it a go" impulse mentality.

There are superior effective methods, which do not risk conditioning your dog to behave in undesiriable ways through bad associations, nor puncture wounds, nor the panic biting I observed.

Prong is I agree, likely better and kinder, than the cheap traditional choke chain; but come on this is 2011 not 1911. Our dogs *want to do what we ask, because it is fun for them and pays off!* Where through say over-excitement or fear they cannot, then we help them gently, not by physical force so they develop good associations and learn to cope in the situation, rather than overwhelm them so they eventually surrender to coercion.


----------



## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> because you're omiting the vital reaction to the pressure and that's why a flat collar causes more damage than a prong collar can


Once again, you ignore the fact that a flat collar is not recommended for a habitual pulling or lunging dog!

Your comparison is irrelevant! Try anti-pull front or double clip harness, which actually prevents the large force (as does the intended to be comfortable non-aversive headcollar used by many here). So we have small force spread over a significant area by non-penetrating surface, resulting in low pressure.

Please Austin, through away your mattress and sleep on a bed of nails (you may round off the tips)!


----------



## newfiesmum

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Wrong, but the most convincing argument so far. It's late, I'll explain this properly to you when I get time and since you understand the basics of pressure and force this will be an eye opener for you. Your assumptions are the exact reverse, because you're omiting the vital reaction to the pressure and that's why a flat collar causes more damage than a prong collar can.
> 
> BTW, puncture wounds? *Care to prove that with my fav pic?*
> regards,
> 
> Austin


It took two minutes to find this one. I am sure there are lots more out there.


----------



## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> When a dog tries to pull, it's head doesn't turn around "naturally", it turns around because the forward motion of the body continues, but the fixed position of the head being help by a lead doesn't move, so the neck turns. What force do you think is acting on the headcollar.....go on, guess..could it be....oh no, is it...PRESSURE?
> 
> If the handler decides to turn the dog head, they pull a lead, which provides....and you'll never believe this....PRESSURE.
> 
> If you cause a dog to change it's position, or attempt to influence behavior by changing its position you need pressure through the headcollar....and that's an aversive use. No guessing, no speculation, no maybe about it. It's aversive manipulation.
> 
> Do you honestly mean to tell me forcably moving the dogs neck by pulling on it's face is natural? A prong works by a different application of pressure, relies on totally different reactions to that pressure, mostly instinctual and a reaction shared by both you and I.


But it doesn't, I've seen dogs lifted sideways, and hefty short arm jerks being used to check dogs wearing prongs. You should take this on board if popular TV programs are displaying usage of your products incorrectly and do something about it!

Pressure on it's own is not aversive, the degree matters. After all most dogs enjoy stroking at a suitable moment and that is a applying gentle pressure in a soothing way.

Animals and people tend to go where they're looking, once the dog finds it is pushing forwards, but is now out of line due to a small sideways force, applying over a significant area (hence low pressure) it ceases driving forward. It is now turning and not going where it intended. What happens next is highly influenced by the Handler and how much attention the dog gives them when they interact. The front clip harness acts similarly, with a double clip and double lead moving hand 1 or 2 inches forward, goes from sled dog style pull, to no significant force and a slack lead allowing comfortable 1 handed control without any heaving. You still have to train the dog to walk properly though, these are just quick fixes to make a situation safe.

Everyone who walks a dog regularly sees plenty of people gently leading dogs round on head collars, or with front clip harnesses, or on traditional leads when it's well trained. We also see insensitive and clumsy handling, with poor usage of leashes.

To have the Prong grip (bite?), you *must* be using more force (via tension on the lead) than is necessary or ever applied in the scenario above. You're going for an indirect application of pressure to that neck to hopefully cause the intended reaction. That pressure is powered by the tension force going down the lead, with a converstion that is guaranteed to be relatively inefficient. Furthermore, by Newton's Laws the force in the lead, still exists and is resisted by the dog's neck, or the dog accelerates towards the handler. That lead ought to be a J and slack, settling for "slight pulling" isn't good enough!

Frankly I wonder if before doing his product reasearch, whether Luv My Dogs did any academic study of physics and the laws of mechanics, the grasp of the factors and concepts seems very weak. My impression is that you know what conclusion you want, so just selectively grasp at straws and select favourable evaluations to suit; that is politics & marketing, not factual work.


----------



## Colette

Right...

Take a dog with approx 12 inch neck for the sake of argument.

A flat collar goes round the neck and is 1 inch wide, this gives a surface area of 12x1 = 12 sq inches.
However, when pulled, only half of the collar will actually be putting pressure on the dog's neck. Thus leaving around 6 sq inches of surface area affected by any force.

A prong collar consists of approx 16 individual prongs, aprrox 8 together would be a sq inch. Hence all 16 prongs offers a surface area of only around 2 sq inch. (Because of the way the collar works contact is made all round the neck, unlike the flat collar which onlt applies pressure on one side).

Owner exerts a force of 10.

On the flat collar 10 / 6 = 1.66....
On the prong collar 10 / 2 = 5.

In other words, the same correction will cause around 3 times as much pressure on a prong collar as on a 1 inch flat collar.

Please explain to me how your physics works, as I'm yet to find the flaw in the usual variety?


----------



## Dogless

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> The police have recorded instances of dogs breaking their necks lunging against flat collars. They don't have any records of that when they used prongs.
> 
> Yes, a sudden stop against a headcollar can be disasterous.
> 
> A headcollar is an aversive. You're using one. Face it, accept it, there's no shame in using aversives. Is an aversive breaking the bond between you and your dog? Is an aversive causing your dog anxiety and pain? Is your dog responding positively to an aversive? According to some R+ evangelists that cannot happen, your dog should hate you and shut down.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


OK, if you want to take it to the very basic and most simplistic argument, every single aid we use to control our dogs is an aversive...I'm sure they would rather run around without collars, so at a very basic level I can accept that I use an aversive every time I put a collar on my dog.

I am well aware that a lunge against flat collars or headcollars can be potentially disastrous; that is why I use a combination and work extremely hard at training. A prong collar is still a collar, so am sure could cause equally disastrous consequences.

I am confident that the headcollar does not cause my dog any pain, anxiety or distress. I believe that a prong collar would do so. I do not think my dog would 'hate' me as that is a human emotion but I do believe that he would enjoy walks with me very much less if walks = pain.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> It took two minutes to find this one. I am sure there are lots more out there.


Well, that's me convinced. I'll throw all my prong collars away after seeing that. Out of curiosity, did you research what actually caused that injury and why first?

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Dogless said:


> OK, if you want to take it to the very basic and most simplistic argument, every single aid we use to control our dogs is an aversive...I'm sure they would rather run around without collars, so at a very basic level I can accept that I use an aversive every time I put a collar on my dog.
> 
> I am well aware that a lunge against flat collars or headcollars can be potentially disastrous; that is why I use a combination and work extremely hard at training. A prong collar is still a collar, so am sure could cause equally disastrous consequences.
> 
> I am confident that the headcollar does not cause my dog any pain, anxiety or distress. I believe that a prong collar would do so. I do not think my dog would 'hate' me as that is a human emotion but I do believe that he would enjoy walks with me very much less if walks = pain.


Why do you assume a prong collar is painful? Surely a headcollar pulling into the eyes is painful? Surely rubbing the snout till it looks like hamburger meat is painful? Y'think? There are people who have dogs that show immediate signs of aggitation when they see the head halter come out and don't actually want to be walked. Yet it may be the case that owner read some assumptions like your stated as fact that the prong is infinitely more painful and have chosen to stick with the wrong equipment. That's where sometimes too little knowledge and too much opinion thrown around irresponsibly causes actual injury. Doesn't that bother you?

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> But it doesn't, I've seen dogs lifted sideways, and hefty short arm jerks being used to check dogs wearing prongs.


No, you haven't.

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Colette said:


> Right...
> 
> Take a dog with approx 12 inch neck for the sake of argument.
> 
> A flat collar goes round the neck and is 1 inch wide, this gives a surface area of 12x1 = 12 sq inches.
> However, when pulled, only half of the collar will actually be putting pressure on the dog's neck. Thus leaving around 6 sq inches of surface area affected by any force.
> 
> A prong collar consists of approx 16 individual prongs, aprrox 8 together would be a sq inch. Hence all 16 prongs offers a surface area of only around 2 sq inch. (Because of the way the collar works contact is made all round the neck, unlike the flat collar which onlt applies pressure on one side).
> 
> Owner exerts a force of 10.
> 
> On the flat collar 10 / 6 = 1.66....
> On the prong collar 10 / 2 = 5.
> 
> In other words, the same correction will cause around 3 times as much pressure on a prong collar as on a 1 inch flat collar.
> 
> Please explain to me how your physics works, as I'm yet to find the flaw in the usual variety?


A flat collar will elongate into an elipse, the eliptical sides are still putting pressure on the dogs neck so your calculations are out, and the area where pressure in concentrated is far smaller, a further miscalculation. Likewise, depending on the strength of the pull not all of the prongs will be applying equal pressure, again your calculation is wrong as it assumes they do.

The difference is the length of time the force is applied, and it's that factor which determines the amount of damage caused and why a flat collar can be more damaging in the immediate pull and over time. A head collar applies a lateral force where a collar or prong applies a compression force, i.e a flat collar and prong tighten, a headcollar travels, that's the nature of the design.

So, we come back to the time the force is applied, and unfortunately that's a variable you've not considered, and that's why collars act like they do which distorts your calculation. It's the reaction to that force that determines the sensations involved and the overal effect. A flat collar causes a constant crushing force, the sensation builds too slowly and the reaction is to pull harder and harder into the force. The dog doesn't even stop when it's choking because the force being spread as it is doesn't cause a disincentive to pulling as the sensation from crushing isn't as severe as the sensation of choking, and at that point the pressure you're assuming is half the collar is more like 1/3 or 1/4 of the collar putting huge constant ongoing strain on the muscles, the airways, the spine and the soft tissue causing long term injury.

The prong on the other hand concentrates the pressure making it more intense in a shorter period and doesn't have a crushing effect. The body, any body, instinctively recognises points of pressure, it's how our nerves work. The body will also instinctively recognise the size, shape, and concentration, and will actively and instinctvely avoid increasing that point of pressure to an unsafe level. Example: if you had a finger touch you in the ribs you'd immediately recognise a point of pressure even though there's no pain, ust a sensation. You'd also instinctively know if you put your weight into it the sensation would increase, eventually becoming uncomfortable, and to an extreme even painful, and you'd be able to judge and moderate that sensation. Not convinced? Imagine you're stood on a bus and could feel someone's elbow against you, no pain, just a sensation. When the bus corners inertia would push you further against the elbow. You'd actively adjust your posture and instinctively lean away to compensate as not to increase the pressure...or seem impolite by falling into them. Instinct, and the bodys natural ability to compensate. Now, if that was a much much smaller point of pressure you'd be instinctively far more motivated to avoid increasing the sensation, and suprisingly outright pain is not the driving motivation.

That's how a prong collar works. By concentrating the pressure it triggers a recognition of several points of pressure. The dog isn't stupid, it's just as aware of pressure as you and I, probably even more so to concentrated points of pressure what with not having opposable thumbs and all and having to explore a good proportion of the world with it's mouth and 4 very large pointy canines. So instinct will kick in, just as with you and I, and and the dog will avoid putting excess weight into the collar thereby limiting the amount of pressure to as little as possible, and if it pulls too hard it will be for much shorter periods until instinct once again acts away from the sensation. Hence, althoug it's concentrated, far far far less pressure for much much much shorter periods and no crushing involved.

Unlike the flat collar or prong the headcollar applies pressure randomly in more plains, i.e. left, right, up, down, depending on what the dog is doing and the direction it's moving. The pressure is sometimes towards the eyes, sometimes in the neck, sometimes in the jowls, sometimes across the snout, sometimes under the chin.... and when the dogs head is being pulled towards the floor and the pressure is varying in intensity and area it's not paying attention to commands, it's wondering "why does my face hurt, and why am I looking at the floor, and is that thing that's just caught my attention still there, going away, getting closer......?" and that's why they're not training tools, no matter how hard some which they were.

Not bad for someone so ignorant to physics and behavior, eh?

regards,

Austin


----------



## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> No, you haven't.


Wow! What a clear case of being in denial!

Here's what a front clip harness, commercial rival has to say Walk In Sync



Walk in Sync on Prongs said:


> Prong Collars
> 
> This collar was designed by a veterinarian to simulate a mother dog grabbing the neck of her puppy. This metal collar with flat head prongs, digs into the dog's neck every time the dog pulls. There have been many cases of dogs pulling right through these prongs and wind up with serious puncture wounds on their necks. The collars can be extremely dangerous to humans who happen to catch their fingers between the prongs. Ultimately this painful collar does not teach the dog to master its own energy, but rather simply to be cautious of the prongs.


If that's not correct, you can sue them!

There video matches my personal experience of using a good anti-pull harness (most owners don't have front or double clip harnesses, but top clips) Basic Bad 2 Good on Vimeo

Having a collar on a dog that you can safely hold is plain common sense.

Some more people for you to sue - Doggy Dogma on Chock & Prong. A very reasonable explanation matching what I observe in daily life (where checking is attempted) and on TV when Prongs are in place.



Doggy Dogma said:


> Check Chains & Prong Collar: Check Chains can do cervical spin damage to your dog, the constant jerking to correct your dogs behaviour has essentially resulted in your dog having whiplash, they can also result in trachea damage. Prong Collars may result in injury to the back of the dogs neck, bruising, puncture wounds or lacerations.
> 
> The reason that these devices are often used on dogs considered wilful or stubborn. The issue is that when you go walking with your dog you are expecting it to behave at the same level as it does at home, when the dogs doesn't, because it is over-stimulated and extremely distracted - possibly even pulling on the lead. You then jerk the chain - which may already be choking the dog, in an attempt to regain it's attention. Inadvertently, however by pulling on the chain while your dog is excited you are actually increasing his stimulation towards things external to you. I would suggest that we start to work with your dog to firstly reduce the excitement that your dog is experiencing, which generally starts before you even get to the front door. Secondly, as dogs don't generalise well, begin to add training, using a clicker and an extremely motivating reward to help your dog behave on cue in environments external to your home.


Now an advocate of Prong, for you to sue to! She suggests correct usage in training, but not everyday walking as a control device Proper Use of Dog Training With Prong Collars - The nonsensical title is theirs, does it show a confused mind, but they do like you, compare Prong to Choke Chain, and fail to consider better alternatives. Shannon suggests Prongs for difficult Labs who tend "not to listen" so need harsher checking. Exactly the kind of dog, that I have seen bodily lifted by their loving lady owner, by a practiced body lean whilst slackening the lead. Totally oblivious to the very high liklihood of neck injury.



Shannon Steffen said:


> What is a Prong Collar?
> A Prong collar (also called pinch collar) is a series of chain links with open ends turned towards the dog's neck so that, when the collar is tightened, it pinches the naturally loose skin around the dog's neck. When properly adjusted and used, it startles the dog and gives a sharp correction, but it is very difficult if not impossible to actually puncture the skin. And while it looks painful, it's actually less harmful to the dog than a slip or choke collar. Opponents argue that pain is never a good default way in which to train animals. Some dogs are nearly oblivious to leash corrections of any kind, but the prong collar might make such dogs pay more attention than milder collar types.


Obviously this advocate of less mild collars, has some personal experience of difficulties with their usage! But as someone else says, puncture wounds are difficult to cause and when they do occur they're quite safe as they are shallow... so that's alright then 



Shannon Steffen said:


> Animal Cruelty
> The Prong collar itself is not a cruel device to use on any dog, so long as it is used properly during training. As with anything, there are opportunities for any training method to be used in a cruel and inhumane fashion. Prong collars should never be used for punishment after the Lab has done something wrong. The collar should only be worn when the owner is actively training the Lab. If left on, the collar can hurt the Lab if it were to become tangled or caught on something. Prong collars are used solely for correction during training and should not be used in any other way. If you suspect someone of purposefully using the Prong collar to hurt their dog, please contact your local officials immediately.


Perhaps what I've observed is an issue, or I would not find articles discussing such so easily.

But of course, LuvMyDogs, you know better and there's no problem and all is well, and owners can be trusted; despite the German autopsy on choke showing 48/50 dogs having neck trauma.


----------



## Colette

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by RobD-BCactive
> But it doesn't, I've seen dogs lifted sideways, and hefty short arm jerks being used to check dogs wearing prongs.
> 
> No, you haven't.


Have you now descended to the point of calling us liars?

I have also witnessed the same - only once or twice admittedly as prongs are so rare round here, but I have seen dogs "checked" hard enough for at least 2 feet to leave the ground.


----------



## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> The difference is the length of time the force is applied, and it's that factor which determines the amount of damage caused and why a flat collar can be more damaging in the immediate pull and over time. A head collar applies a lateral force where a collar or prong applies a compression force, i.e a flat collar and prong tighten, a headcollar travels, that's the nature of the design


Wrong!

The tension in the lead of a pulling dog, causes a force along the line of the lead. If the dog is forward of owner, typical of the flat or prong long leash scenario, then it will act backwards, causing the dog to drive forward against the resistance. It is well known that with choke chains that dogs will block out the constriction and are willing to strangle themselves, crushing their tracheas.

Adding a compressive force, does not eliminate the forces in the leash due to tension.

Prong is designed to cause a tooth effect intensifying the pressure to points on theory the dog will notice. Unfortunately over threshold dogs, block pain and don't notice much of anything but what's over-stimulating them. Furthermore they lunge at things, so they have significant velocity before the Prong can have any effect. Stopping this velocity on concentrated points is not safe and appears to rely on loose skin folds around neck.

A dog has to lean against a sideways force, but their anatomy does not provide large muscle groups, to drive powerfully in such a direction. Such a force can be shown not to be aversive, because dogs voluntarily accept such forces during games, where they could simply stop and turn, instead they can enjoy running in a circle with a lateral centripetal force guiding their circular motion.

Your argument boils down to, a Prong may be better if the dog stops pulling, ignoring the fact that daily dog walking involves more factors. Yes Prong is much safer and better than choke chain, that does not make it the safest or best system.


----------



## newfiesmum

Colette said:


> Have you now descended to the point of calling us liars?
> 
> I have also witnessed the same - only once or twice admittedly as prongs are so rare round here, but I have seen dogs "checked" hard enough for at least 2 feet to leave the ground.


You took the words right out of my mouth. Oh no, you haven't! Oh, yes I have, etc, etc. How extremely childish.


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## RobD-BCactive

smudgebiscuit said:


> She can walk to heel-ish at the puppy class & in our garden-but as soon as you get her outside she pulls & fights to get whichever head collar she has on off her face


Doesn't Doggy Dogma's comment fit very well Molly's behaviour with the headcollar not well habituated and now rejected?
Good in class & garden, goes to pot out the front door.



RobD-BCactive said:


> Some more people for you to sue - Doggy Dogma on Chock & Prong


----------



## Dogless

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Why do you assume a prong collar is painful? Surely a headcollar pulling into the eyes is painful? Surely rubbing the snout till it looks like hamburger meat is painful? Y'think? There are people who have dogs that show immediate signs of aggitation when they see the head halter come out and don't actually want to be walked. Yet it may be the case that owner read some assumptions like your stated as fact that the prong is infinitely more painful and have chosen to stick with the wrong equipment. That's where sometimes too little knowledge and too much opinion thrown around irresponsibly causes actual injury. Doesn't that bother you?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


Firstly, please don't patronise me with Y'think?  like I am some sort of idiot.

As you pointed out before I can speak only for my dog, not others; which is what I have been doing. You seem to broaden the discussion back out to talk about other peoples' dogs to try and rubbish any of my opinions. I have acknowledged also and have no doubt that a headcollar is certainly not right for every dog - if it rides into the eyes, rubs the snout, causes anxiety etc.

I also stated that I believed the prong collar would be more painful, for my dog, than the headcollar. I stand by that. A dog round here is walked on a prong, he does walk beautifully to heel and does not react to anything; he also looks thoroughly downhearted and trudges along without any enthusiasm at all; for that reason alone I am thoroughly put off them.

The part of your post highlighted does bother me, yes; I am not throwing around my opinion irresponsibly, thus causing injury to any dogs; I research any piece of equipment AND IT'S SAFE USAGE carefully before I use it. If it caused any pain or discomfort, I would discontinue it's use.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Colette said:


> Have you now descended to the point of calling us liars?


No, just Rob.

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Dogless said:


> Firstly, please don't patronise me with Y'think?  like I am some sort of idiot.


Wouldn't think of it, by the passion behind your argument and acknowledgement of the downsides of both headcollars and prong collars you've actually helped me no end, thank you. I'm trying to kill off the tired old argument 2 persistant posters are clinging to. They believe only the prong is painful and aversive but condone the headcollar as safe and humane. I'm used to people having a go at the prong collar, incorrectly in most cases, but it's the one's who blindly believe the headcollar is humane that I'm trying to convince it actually isn't as safe as they say, and therefore can be painful and is aversive. As it turns out, you understand that too, the more you say it the more I hope they'll believe YOU, because they sure as hell won't believe me.

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> RobD-BCactive, he walks right into it.......


Ah ha aha ha hA HA AHA HAH HA BWAH HA HA H....oooooh, better get a mop and bucket.

_Here's what a front clip harness, commercial rival has to say Walk In Sync against prong collars:
This collar was designed by a veterinarian to simulate a mother dog grabbing the neck of her puppy. This metal collar with flat head prongs, digs into the dog's neck every time the dog pulls. There have been many cases of dogs pulling right through these prongs and wind up with serious puncture wounds on their necks. The collars can be extremely dangerous to humans who happen to catch their fingers between the prongs. Ultimately this painful collar does not teach the dog to master its own energy, but rather simply to be cautious of the prongs._ 

And Rob believed it because he read it. So, how does this argument stand up?

Well, the prong collar design is (that we know) over 200 years old. The earliest prong collar I've seen is actually older than that and is in the dog collar museum at Leeds Castle near Maidstone. Herm Sprenger were the first company to patent a design in the late 1800's to begin commercial production of a standard prong collar. Rob, what about the vet they claim in this sales brochure "inventing it"? When was that vet alive and 'inventing'?

The argument about the dams teeth is a very simplistic explanation of the way I described it to work, and Coleen kindly furbished with calculation. That version is so the layman can grasp a basic analogy, like you've managed Rob. You may not get the maths/academic stuff, and that's no shame, but you kind of got the scruffing comparison though and that's good enough.

Many cases of puncture, rhubarb, flanel.....yup. Since they're sold in pet shops across the world, most notably the USA where you can get sued for an unfortunate, if not amusing, bout of flatulence in an elevator, where are all the law suits for vet bills against prong collar manufacturers and retailers? Search for one some time, I have, and spent a lot longer looking for it that you will. Unfortunately, nothing. Just Newfiesmum's pic, which she didn't research at all  Give me a number, as random as you like as to how many actually constitutes 'many'? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? 1 in 10000? Just asking cos I'd like to forcast a business on it. If it's 1 in 1000000 then happy days, once we've sold 990000 I'm cashing in my shares and retiring.

I love that line "The collars can be extremely dangerous to humans who happen to catch their fingers between the prongs.", With the exception of my scrotum I've caught about every other part of my body between the prongs to demonstrate how false that statement is. Listen, if you want to see, y'know, "that", eh, *wink wink* just for you, and once only I'll give it a go.

As for the last sentence, biased much? Objective at all? Given the accuracy of the rest of the paragraph being in tatters if this person told me it was dark at midnight, I'd go outside and check.

But Rob, petal, you didn't pick your reading material very well. Lets see what a front clip harness, commercial rival has to say Walk In Sync against headcollars:
_This type of leash is designed to stop a dog from pulling, by wrapping a nylon strap around the dog's nose, and cinching under the chin. Many people mistake nose haltis for muzzles. The negative impact is twofold: First, it does not truly teach the dog not to pull, but rather makes the dog fearful by tugging on their nose. Secondly, it is a very dangerous mechanism that could do serious harm your dog's neck and spine! Most dogs don't like this tool, especially since most people are not using it correctly in the first place. Be especially concerned because it will not release pressure if your dog is pulling and can ultimately cause extreme stress to your dog's cervical vertebrae. It often confuses the dog, creating conflict by not enabling you to teach your dog to manage their energy correctly. Most people find that when they transition from Nose Halti to regular color, that their dog is still pulling anyway._

Oops. Didn't expect that. But wait, and there's more, lets see what a front clip harness, commercial rival has to say Walk In Sync against harnesses:

_Ordinary harnesses are a great device to avoid choking your dog. Keep in mind that most dogs can still pull on a harness, because it does not effectively serve as a training method, but is used only as a tool. Most ordinary harnesses clasp behind the dog's shoulders, giving THEM the advantage of engaging the power of their front legs to brace and continue to pull against pressure. Ordinary harnesses that clip at the front and have adjustments at your dog's shoulders generally don't fit your dog properly and impinge on their shoulder movement which is critical for proper structure._

Ah, they seem to have an issue with them too. I wonder if there's a product that doesn't do any of these things? I wish I had a wonder tool that could solve all these horrific problems with other products and solve my problems? Juts kidding Rob, but listen, seriously now, I have this bottle of snake oil.............

So Rob, your thoughts?
_Having a collar on a dog that you can safely hold is plain common sense._
Yup, I agree. If that's the case it doesn't really matter what the collar is then, does it? By that reasoning a prong collar or a head collar or a piece of string with knot in it are equal.

Ah, phew, my Lord my ribs are hurting. I hope there's some reasonably informative reading for a break.....but then Rob pulled out the big guns with:

"Some more people for you to sue - Doggy Dogma on Chock & Prong. A very reasonable explanation matching what I observe in daily life (where checking is attempted) and on TV when Prongs are in place"... ( I think Rob means in the most unlimited parts of O2's mind....)

_Originally Posted by Doggy Dogma:
Check Chains & Prong Collar:....Prong Collars may result in injury to the back of the dogs neck, bruising, puncture wounds or lacerations._
Oh my actual God. How long are these prongs? If the pressure, as Coleen and I have discussed, is as the front of the neck, how is the damage making it all the way to the back? Here's a tip, don't buy the "Kill Bill 5 Finger Exploding Heart" brand prong collar, they're likely to be a danger to the whole neighbourhood. What sick and depraved places do you go to see this kind of stuff? Sounds really disturbing..... and freaky.

But bless Rob, you throw out an olive branch and give me a kindred spirit, a prong collar user, surely we have so much in common and I'll obviously identify with her so much. Joking aside, I had a similar haircut in the 80's. Your thoughts are:

_Now an advocate of Prong, for you to sue to! She suggests correct usage in training, but not everyday walking as a control device Proper Use of Dog Training With Prong Collars - The nonsensical title is theirs, does it show a confused mind, but they do like you, compare Prong to Choke Chain, and fail to consider better alternatives. Shannon suggests Prongs for difficult Labs who tend "not to listen" so need harsher checking. Exactly the kind of dog, that I have seen bodily lifted by their loving lady owner, by a practiced body lean whilst slackening the lead. Totally oblivious to the very high liklihood of neck injury._

Um, Rob, have you been paying attention? I said "headcollars", not "choke chains", head...choke....no?? Same thing in your eyes, not mine though, sorry. Ok, lets see what Shazza suggests..... hang on, what's that Shaz?

"Please note: This article is intended to provide general information on the Prong Collar and does not serve as a full training manual or definitive answer on dog training. The author is a responsible Labrador Retriever owner that uses the Prong collar on her own Labs and is not a Certified Pet Dog Trainer. References are provided to assist readers in gathering further information prior to making decisions on whether or not to utilize this type of training on their own dogs."

Oh, ok, since it's you blog and all and not a commercial site, what's your take on a prong collar, see Rob n me are trying to make each other look stupid.....

_Originally Posted by Shannon Steffen:
What is a Prong Collar?A Prong collar (also called pinch collar) is a series of chain links with open ends turned towards the dog's neck so that, when the collar is tightened, it pinches the naturally loose skin around the dog's neck. When properly adjusted and used, it startles the dog and gives a sharp correction, but it is very difficult if not impossible to actually puncture the skin. And while it looks painful, it's actually less harmful to the dog than a slip or choke collar. Opponents argue that pain is never a good default way in which to train animals. Some dogs are nearly oblivious to leash corrections of any kind, but the prong collar might make such dogs pay more attention than milder collar types._

Ah, you got the first bit off Wikipedia... is that the bit before I corrected it and the remaining synopsis I rewrote? Rob, go to Wikipedia, read that bit, and click on the little '2' next to covering caps...where did you end up?

For the record a lot of her information is copied and pasted off other sites, it's not at all accurate because the "original" author didn't have much of a clue but a lot of enthusiasm and copied/pasted it off another site by not knowing any better. I Wouldn't advocate this as a the definitive way to use a prong collar and disagree with a lot of her methods (Sharon, if you're doing a vanity search and read this, please, give myself or Ed Dooley a call. Ed, if Sharon phones you first please tell her I say hi?). After making a very poor point Rob (pardon the pun) this isn't a very good way to try and look smug:

_Obviously this advocate of less mild collars, has some personal experience of difficulties with their usage! But as someone else says, puncture wounds are difficult to cause and when they do occur they're quite safe as they are shallow... so that's alright then _

NO, that's not alright. The bane of my existance is the cheap crappy prong collars from China found on that auction site and in Petsmart, or the ones Guardian Gear use, and Titan want a word with themselves too. The cheap collars have chisel cut ends (you did read Wikipedia, yes?) like a coat hanger is made. The ends are flat cut, burred, have cheap brittle metal, and are just unsafe in anyone's books. I fear for owners too cheap to buy decent equipment and put it on their dogs...whether it be cheap prong collars, or cheap headcollars...like Halti, who should be disgusted with themselves for producting such a shoddy piece of rubbish, I dispair at low grade dangerous equipment of any description!

And Rob, are you making a point with:

_Originally Posted by Shannon Steffen Animal Cruelty:
The Prong collar itself is not a cruel device to use on any dog, so long as it is used properly during training. As with anything, there are opportunities for any training method to be used in a cruel and inhumane fashion. Prong collars should never be used for punishment after the Lab has done something wrong. The collar should only be worn when the owner is actively training the Lab. If left on, the collar can hurt the Lab if it were to become tangled or caught on something. Prong collars are used solely for correction during training and should not be used in any other way. If you suspect someone of purposefully using the Prong collar to hurt their dog, please contact your local officials immediately_

Mocking an attempt at a sensible and reasonable statement? What's wrong with you? Is it:

"Perhaps what I've observed is an issue, or I would not find articles discussing such so easily.

But of course, LuvMyDogs, you know better and there's no problem and all is well, and owners can be trusted; despite the German autopsy on choke showing 48/50 dogs having neck trauma."

Here's my guess Rob, since I've seen all of these before, you probably searched on Yahoo instead of Google and didn't get much past the third page. You selectively picked a few random sites, didn't actually read the pages through (nice research...) and made a tit of yourself. The German neck trauma article? You found Suzanne Clothier? BTW, my name's Austin, not LuvMyDogs, and it's actually LuvMyDog, there's no 's'.

Tell me Rob, do you have a transcript of the actual study or just what you read on her page? The page she's hidden and made more difficult to find and since distanced herself from? The one too many idiots misquote? What am I saying, of course you don't. Wild guess who does though, and who read it, and who followed it up.....?

Rob, ma petite fleur, please, stop wasting all our time. You've been good value and good entertainment, but as far as prong collars go you know less than my dog, and I don't have a dog. Stop trying to be an expert and argue against something you know nothing about to convince others. I'm not going to respond to any more of your posts on the subject until you have the decency to learn about them first.

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> Wrong!
> 
> Prong is designed to cause a tooth effect intensifying the pressure to points on theory the dog will notice. Unfortunately over threshold dogs, block pain and don't notice much of anything but what's over-stimulating them. Furthermore they lunge at things, so they have significant velocity before the Prong can have any effect. Stopping this velocity on concentrated points is not safe and appears to rely on loose skin folds around neck.
> 
> Your argument boils down to, a Prong may be better if the dog stops pulling, ignoring the fact that daily dog walking involves more factors. Yes Prong is much safer and better than choke chain, that does not make it the safest or best system.


Ah, damn, I'm out of sinc, this should be before the other post.

Rob, don't tell me I'm wrong. You're talking about the "pinch" here? Ok, lets look at this rationally.

Every time you see the words "pinch collar", you're looking at the words of someone who's regurgitating the advert off the site they bought it from. That person, retailer, trainer (pffffft) hasn't taken the time to see how the collar works mechanically.

In order to work by "pinching" the collar would need one very basic premise, all dogs have the same size dewlaps. Otherwise there's no way to measure the 'pinch' and get a consistant amount of force. Bigger dewlaps would be a severe pinch, small dewlaps would slip under the prongs and not get pinched at all. To work effectively by 'pinching' the collar would need to be both breed specific, and then size specific within the breed. But they're not. A prong collar doesn't pinch at all. It works on a lateral movement, the prongs can't get close enough together to trap skin and form a pinching action.

The reason it "appears" is because there's very little information on how to use the collars (btw, a run up before the prongs are noticable? No!) and there's a lot of guesswork. Part of that is when people search for information the vast majority of what they'll find is posts like this with one or two people explaining their use, and many many more people with no workable information stating ignorant opinion of how cruel they are and telling people to train their dogs. You're not helping Rob, you're being an obsticle to worthwhile discussion. Sorry. And at no point have I said a prong is the best option, Ive stated it's safer and a viable option if people casting opinion with no experience will just get over the stigma of how they look and STFU.

regards,
Austin


----------



## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Rob, don't tell me I'm wrong. You're talking about the "pinch" here? Ok, lets look at this rationally


Austin, you're talking total rubbish here. When "Prong" collar is mentioned, it is clearly the type of collar designed with simulated teeth to bite. Your collar system appears to have blades, it looks horrific and barbaric, especially given your poor grasp of physics, losing forces in non-Newtonian way.

Your company has a product to market, another company has the same. It's quite funny how you want your commercial statements to be belived, but quoting another company attracts derision, as if I were a naive fool.

The difference is actually :

1) I personally used a humane, Halti double clip harness and double ended lead, at total cost of £13. Comfortable, effective, safe, humane and simple to use.

2) Your system, which looks barbaric and no reason to believe it's in a different class from prong much misused on the Dog Whisper show by owners of "before" dogs, costs £42.

Guess which one any sane owner would buy?
Guess which one, most forum posters would choose as gift items?
Guess which system, most forum posters would *never* use because of aversive fall out and safety concerns?

I note many US dog owners appear to use choke chains in place of a collar, despite the well known medical evidence; many other dogs seem to be left out whole time in yards, completely bored for "security", so the choices of the US public, when it comes to dogs, do not appear to be a good guide to me.


----------



## leashedForLife

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Unfortunately the prong collar attracts a lot of emotive comments, and more than its fair share
> of "experts" spouting half truths they're read on a random website. It's a real shame the [amount of] guilt forced
> on prong collar users and potential users when it could actually make significant improvements to the quality
> of both the handlers and dogs lives.


that of course explains why the collars are now made to be _'discrete'_, which is simply another way of saying, 
_it no longer looks like a prong-collar, so that the person using it need not admit they are using it, even to themselves, 
let alone admit it in public, in broad daylight, in front of God, the neighbors & every woman & her husband, the kids & all._


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> There's no shame in using a prong collar, there shouldn't be an imposed sense of guilt by detractors
> of dubious "knowledge" and "experience". Personally I'd never use a headcollar as an alternative to a prong collar...


* i think they are needless - and have not used one on any dog of mine in my lifetime.

* i think that prong-collars of any type frequently exacerbate precisely the behavior they are intended to quash.

* the last time i used one was somewhere around 1981, it was already on the dog, a 150# harlequin Great Dane, 
and he was a cat-killer; the prong availed nothing, he came within an inch of killing us both, running toward a street 
full of traffic to GET TO A CAT on a windowsill, on the far side! *i switched the owner to a properly-fitted 
all fabric martingale collar, 2-inches wide - and no more problems.*

* nowadays i would put him on a front-clip H-harness, if the owner was willing, & take 5 days or so to habituate him 
to a Gentle Leader headcollar - with the front-clip harness as the immediate-use management tool. 


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...R+ with a bag of bribes and a clicker is *not as effective* as some might make out too.
> If you're sticking with a failing method for fear of what other people think then that's actually cruel,
> not your choice of equipment.


*not as effective* as what? A prong-collar? :lol: good one! 

_*failing method*?_ i have used pos-R for over 25-years, *without* chokes, prongs, shocks, Alpha-rolls, 
*commands*, neck-pokes, _Tssst!..._, stare-downs, flooding, hanging, forced fetch, 
etc - no dog has been intimidated or coerced or put into situations beyond their ability to cope, other than when 
the situation is not within my control - as when some eejit lets their dog run at-large deliberately in a leashed-only area, 
but i am not all-powerful nor do i have infinite vision - when a loose dog appears on a wooded bike-path, 
i do what i can to keep the dog i am handling calm & safe.

reward-based training has worked for pups, adults, former outdoor-dogs moving off chains into homes, 
ex-hunting hounds with no manners who've *never been on a leash in their lives,* Giant breeds, toys, 
and everything in between; over 90% of my past clients had adult-dogs with adult problems, from aggression 
with a bite-history to sep-anx, OCD behaviors, dog-reactive, various fears, predatory & more - *all of them* 
did just fine, thanks, without a single prong among them. :lol:


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> Austin, you're talking total rubbish here. When "Prong" collar is mentioned, it is clearly the type of collar designed with simulated teeth to bite. Your collar system appears to have blades, it looks horrific and barbaric, especially given your poor grasp of physics, losing forces in non-Newtonian way.
> 
> Your company has a product to market, another company has the same. It's quite funny how you want your commercial statements to be belived, but quoting another company attracts derision, as if I were a naive fool.
> 
> The difference is actually :
> 
> 1) I personally used a humane, Halti double clip harness and double ended lead, at total cost of £13. Comfortable, effective, safe, humane and simple to use.
> 
> 2) Your system, which looks barbaric and no reason to believe it's in a different class from prong much misused on the Dog Whisper show by owners of "before" dogs, costs £42.
> 
> Guess which one any sane owner would buy?
> Guess which one, most forum posters would choose as gift items?
> Guess which system, most forum posters would *never* use because of aversive fall out and safety concerns?
> 
> I note many US dog owners appear to use choke chains in place of a collar, despite the well known medical evidence; many other dogs seem to be left out whole time in yards, completely bored for "security", so the choices of the US public, when it comes to dogs, do not appear to be a good guide to me.


WTF are you on about Rob? All I'm reading here is "blah blah idiot blah idiot blah". You've had this explained, in physics, behaviour and functionality. Your don't know what a prong collar is, how it works, what the results are, the reactions to.....yet you still have an "authoritive" opinion? You've been shot down Rob, give it up, this isn't your area of expertise by any stretch of the imagination. In short, you simply don't know what you're talking about but keep talking anyway. Seriously now, what is your point of continuing?

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

leashedForLife said:


> that of course explains why the collars are now made to be _'discrete'_, which is simply another way of saying,
> _it no longer looks like a prong-collar, so that the person using it need not admit they are using it, even to themselves,
> let alone admit it in public, in broad daylight, in front of God, the neighbors & every woman & her husband, the kids & all._
> 
> * i think they are needless - and have not used one on any dog of mine in my lifetime.
> 
> * i think that prong-collars of any type frequently exacerbate precisely the behavior they are intended to quash.
> 
> * the last time i used one was somewhere around 1981, it was already on the dog, a 150# harlequin Great Dane,
> and he was a cat-killer; the prong availed nothing, he came within an inch of killing us both, running toward a street
> full of traffic to GET TO A CAT on a windowsill, on the far side! *i switched the owner to a properly-fitted
> all fabric martingale collar, 2-inches wide - and no more problems.*
> 
> * nowadays i would put him on a front-clip H-harness, if the owner was willing, & take 5 days or so to habituate him
> to a Gentle Leader headcollar - with the front-clip harness as the immediate-use management tool.
> 
> *not as effective* as what? A prong-collar? :lol: good one!
> 
> _*failing method*?_ i have used pos-R for over 25-years, *without* chokes, prongs, shocks, Alpha-rolls,
> *commands*, neck-pokes, _Tssst!..._, stare-downs, flooding, hanging, forced fetch,
> etc - no dog has been intimidated or coerced or put into situations beyond their ability to cope, other than when
> the situation is not within my control - as when some eejit lets their dog run at-large deliberately in a leashed-only area,
> but i am not all-powerful nor do i have infinite vision - when a loose dog appears on a wooded bike-path,
> i do what i can to keep the dog i am handling calm & safe.
> 
> reward-based training has worked for pups, adults, former outdoor-dogs moving off chains into homes,
> ex-hunting hounds with no manners who've *never been on a leash in their lives,* Giant breeds, toys,
> and everything in between; over 90% of my past clients had adult-dogs with adult problems, from aggression
> with a bite-history to sep-anx, OCD behaviors, dog-reactive, various fears, predatory & more - *all of them*
> did just fine, thanks, without a single prong among them. :lol:


I'd use a prong collar in front of you without any hesitation, or anyone else for that matter, so would most advocates of prong collars, having one look discreet is personal preference, not deferance to your whims, get over yourself.

To shortlist your concerns though, think what you want, it's your choice what you use and my choice what I use, and a martingale won't correct what a prong can't, a prong incorporates a martingale and your story is more fiction than fact.

I visited a trainer this week that shot down the gentle leader, they only use canny's or dogmatics and named haltis and gentle leaders as tat. Out of you opinion or theirs I'll trust theirs. Since the trainers do KC good citizen, agility and protection dogs and the equipment varies vastly between the diciplines I respect their view to judge different equipment on it's merits over your unvarifiable waffle. Again, another unqualified armchair 'expert' spouting rhetoric and dubious opinion. There' no reason why R+ can't be used in conjunction with a prong, in fact it's absolutey encouraged, yet you seem to separate them entirely. Are you that certain your methods of R+ for all dogs is 100% effective?

regards,

Austin


----------



## Nicky10

Somebody tried to tell me they didn't hurt the dog and they're just power steering and essential for big dogs . You can guess what sort of dog sport they were involved in can't you? I've had one around my neck and they hurt I would never use something that cruel on a dog. If the whole idea is they just put pressure on the dog then why do they have spikes?


----------



## leashedForLife

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I visited a trainer this week that shot down the ['Gentle Leader' by Premier Pet-Products], they only use
> [Canny-Collars] or [Dogmatics] and named [Haltis] & [Gentle Leaders] as *tat*.


what's *"tat"*? 
my only familiarity with the term 'tat' is as an abbreviation for 'tattoo', which obviously does not apply here.


----------



## Dogless

leashedForLife said:


> what's *"tat"*?
> my only familiarity with the term 'tat' is as an abbreviation for 'tattoo', which obviously does not apply here.


It means rubbish / junk as in 'why is she wearing that piece of tat'.


----------



## lemmsy

Not really followed this thread but very briefly in response to OP's question: 

Avoid like the plague any kind of "self-correction" collar or similar contraption that serves to "check" or correct the dog (aversive use). 

Also avoid like the plague any trainer who recommends, owns, suggests or even mentions (in even a half positive light) such contraptions. 

Having done the above: get yourself a decent trainer, who actually understands dogs and how they learn and is committed to kind, positive and humane methods.


----------



## leashedForLife

Dogless said:


> It means rubbish / junk as in 'why is she wearing that piece of tat'.


_ah-ha!_ :yesnod: i've got it - from '*tatty*' which came from '*tattered*'.

well, my headcollars are neither tatty nor tattered - they are in excellent condition, thanks for asking. 
and i have no use whatever for a headcollar that fastens At The Back Of The Dog's Head - since i only use a headcollar 
when i actually need to control either their head, or the direction of their gaze, a rear-clip would be useless 
for the application. :001_smile: Cheers!


----------



## Guest

:Yawn::Yawn::Yawn::Yawn:

I see the other one has come on to push their wares


----------



## dexter

yep Adam and his side kick Denis. must have done most of the doggy forums now:Yawn::Yawn::Yawn::Yawn::Yawn::Yawn:


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Nicky10 said:


> Somebody tried to tell me they didn't hurt the dog and they're just power steering and essential for big dogs . You can guess what sort of dog sport they were involved in can't you?


No, I can't guess, tell me, in detail. Do you seriously believe a big dog can't walk nicely on a flat collar and lead and no-one has ever seen it happen? What exactly are you trying to add to this conversation? Trolling maybe........... 

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

lemmsy said:


> Not really followed this thread but very briefly in response to OP's question:
> 
> Avoid like the plague any kind of "self-correction" collar or similar contraption that serves to "check" or correct the dog (aversive use).
> 
> Also avoid like the plague any trainer who recommends, owns, suggests or even mentions (in even a half positive light) such contraptions.
> 
> Having done the above: get yourself a decent trainer, who actually understands dogs and how they learn and is committed to kind, positive and humane methods.


Ah, finally, you mean like a Halti? Have you ever surfed over to their site, read their claims, read the instructions for their use....ever seen the reaction to their use? Why would you ever trust a trainer that recommends them? Speaking to a wide selection of trainers, even they dispair other trainers (and random posters behind anonymous usernames) recommend them. Oh, no, you also mean a prong collar.... or are we maybe turning a blind eye lemmsy?

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

leashedForLife said:


> _ah-ha!_ :yesnod: i've got it - from '*tatty*' which came from '*tattered*'.
> 
> well, my headcollars are neither tatty nor tattered - they are in excellent condition, thanks for asking.
> and i have no use whatever for a headcollar that fastens At The Back Of The Dog's Head - since i only use a headcollar
> when i actually need to control either their head, or the direction of their gaze, a rear-clip would be useless
> for the application. :001_smile: Cheers!


_Anyone who is willing to use a tool in training but wants to hide which tool they use, are in a word, hypocritical IMO; this is a prong-collar, pure & simple; appearances are not the be-all & end-all, but any owner, handler or trainer who is so horrified to admit that they actually USE a [shock, horror, O-M-G...] prong-collar, should probably re-think their reasons for using that tool.

The episode of Dog-Whisperer which had a shock-collar on a German Shepherd, supposedly to 'teach' the dog to leave the family-cat [a Himalayan] alone & not chase her, springs immediately to mind: THE REMOTE WAS HIDDEN IN A PANTS-POCKET & never mentioned at all, 
which led to huge confusion in viewers, as suddenly the dog is yelping, tries to flee from the owner [whom he normally clung to like Velcro], tries to bolt from the room, stress-pants & drools, cringes, avoids looking at the cat, & finally BITES his much-loved owner... all the result of hidden manipulation of buttons on the remote-control in a pocket, & the shocks which were given to the dog.

HIDING the function of a tool by pretending it is something else, or does not exist, immediately raises questions of ethics, transparency, accuracy & misrepresentation - in this case, it's a prong-collar; that it was designed & trademarked [apparently] by a company ironically named, Luv My Dog, is salt in the wound, IMO.

as a trainer, i would never use, recommend or suggest a prong-collar - but at the very least, a prong-collar which unapologetically LOOKS just like what it is - a prong-collar! - has the appeal of being unpretentious & straightforward: it's a SPADE, not a flat-faced earth-moving hand-operated agricultural implement with 4.5-ft ash handle.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. Thumbs-down, 
- terry_

Better start thinking about your explanation to the complaint that's gone to Gail Fisher Terry, phone me and I'll talk you through the breaches of the Code of Professional Conduct, and just how far I'm prepared to pursue this.

The ignorance of people who don't know, don't research, and don't WANT to know is astounding.

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

rona said:


> :Yawn::Yawn::Yawn::Yawn:
> 
> I see the other one has come on to push their wares


Why do you automatically assume that? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but a forum is about the exchange of ideas and discussing the various aspects of the topic? Without even saying "hello" you've decided my objective, formed an opinion, and it's negative. Please, elaborate the reason for this decision.... 

oops, forgot.......

:Yawn::Yawn::Yawn::Yawn:

regards,

Austin


----------



## lemmsy

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Ah, finally, you mean like a Halti? Have you ever surfed over to their site, read their claims, read the instructions for their use....ever seen the reaction to their use? Why would you ever trust a trainer that recommends them? Speaking to a wide selection of trainers, even they dispair other trainers (and random posters behind anonymous usernames) recommend them. Oh, no, you also mean a prong collar.... or are we maybe turning a blind eye lemmsy?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


LOL :lol:

Nope not turning a blind eye here!

I don't actually like headcollars (haltis, gentle leaders and the like) that much, as I feel they definitely don't suit all. Whilst their correct, positive use as a training AID (will come on to that later) can be very beneficial for some dogs and owners, they really don't suit others. If improperly fitted they can create an increase in stress and anxiety in an already spooky or fearful dog. If used without out any real training (and the dog continues to pull) they can cause stress on the neck area and sometimes too there is an increased desire to pull for the dog.

If a headcollar is to be used;

I would only use one on a dog that had a REAL pulling problem (a dog that has and/or will pull you over).
HOWEVER (and this bit is very important!) you have to look at WHY the dog is motivated to pull that much. Is it because they have poor impulse control and want to reach another dog? Is it because they are lunging due to close proximity to feared stimuli? Is it a rehearsed behaviour chain (i.e. towards park)?

Identification of the motivation for the (intense) pulling behaviour dictates whether or not a headcollar is suitable for the case, alongside characteristics of the dog in question. If it is a fear, lunging type case, generally speaking I would be hesitant to suggest a headcollar unless there was a real risk of the dog pulling their owner over and charging at feared stimuli. Why? Because it is highly likely that if the dog is that aroused, he is over threshold. I would want to look at how he/she walks on the lead, without the presence of feared stimuli. (I.E. is it really a lead pulling problem we have or a reactivity, fear issue?) If it is the case that the dog's behaviour is largely due to him/her being over threshold, then I would work on DS and CC work (lowering the reactivity threshold and changing the dogs emotional response to the feared stimuli to a positive one). The owner would need to understand that they need to avoid putting their dog in a situation that is over threshold and keep working towards teaching coping behaviours and gradually increasing, for example proximity criteria, setting the dog up to succeed at each stage and keeping it fun and VERY positive all the way through. A headcollar, IMO is less likely to be suitable in a fear case, especially if the dog is particularly sensitive (or uncomfortable with) the sensation of anything around it's face. If this was the case and the dog was having to deal with working around (or at a distance to feared stimuli), the exercise would be counter-productive. We are aiming for calm non-reactivity and by putting a headcollar on a dog that is not comfortable with this, we are increasing frustration in the dog.

That said, it is perfectly possible to desensitize and counter-condition a dog's response to wearing a headcollar, but likelihood of it is, that were we able to do that successfully, we should be equally able to teach the dog to walk on a loose lead, without any need for a headcollar anyway. 

I guess the only time I would use a headcollar would be if we had a dog who for whatever reason had this extreme pulling habit (perhaps poor self control too) and something was needed to lessen the intensity of the behaviour and give way (and allow) for the dog engage more with his handler, which would allow the handler to incorporate the positive training practised at home, on a walk. 
Basically use of the headcollar, would HAVE TO BE accompanied by consistent, clear training and shaping (and proofing to all sorts of environments) of a loose lead behaviour using only positive reinforcement and negative punishment. 
The headcollar would not in any way be used to correct (either self or otherwise) the dog. It is simply used to lessen the intensity of the behaviour, whilst the handler adds value to the new, more desirable behaviour.

I do think that the above could be achieved without the use of a headcollar, with tons of short, snappy, fun sessions and lots of proofing. But I think you have to think about the capability of the owner too.

So, to conclude you can see from what I have said that correct use of a headcollar, does not consist in any way of any kind of correction. AND used correctly on a suitable dog, it should be used to lessen the intensity of bad pulling behaviours, alongside lots of positive training (telling the dog what YOU DO want them to do).

And that's where we differ I guess isn't it? These so called-self correction collars (the one the OP described sounded like a less intense prong) is meant to be used to correct the dog AS AN AVERSIVE. The dog is never specifically "told" what he should be doing, only punished for the undesirable behaviour.

I really dislike and oppose the use of aversives because I feel that their use is damaging to the relationship between the owner and dog. I also feel that, unfortunately many aversive methods and tools come hand in hand, with old-school, outdated ideology r.e. dog behaviour.


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

So, since it's only a temporary solution and can be used quite painlessly why not use a prong collar instead of a headcollar. With a strong pulling dog it's often a safer and less stressing option, and ironically less painful and less likely to cause physical injury. All the things you claim you can do with a headcollar can be done equally well and arguably better with a prong. I don't understand the hesitation to acknowledge their benefit or use one, especially when the work around seems to be inadequate and potentially dangerous alternatives. I also don't understand the taboo in admitting they have a viable place in training if circumstance is within the collars capability to assist short term. I especially like the term "desensitising the dog to the headcollar", why not be more open and truthful by saying "causing the dog discomfort until they accept it"?

To me this all seems too much like an excuse and denial of the collars actual aversive nature to convince owners their headcollar is actually a worthwhile tool. Yet prong collar users are summed up as "lazy bullies that inflict pain on their dogs needlessly instead of training" by people doing the exact same thing but with a different tool. The irony isn't being wasted, I promise. Perhaps generalising in both cases isn't as clear cut as it seems, and no-ones choice of training equipment is ever "the best one"?

regards,

Austin


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## lemmsy

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> So, since it's only a temporary solution and can be used quite painlessly why not use a prong collar instead of a headcollar. With a strong pulling dog it's often a safer and less stressing option, and ironically less painful and less likely to cause physical injury. All the things you claim you can do with a headcollar can be done equally well and arguably better with a prong. I don't understand the hesitation to acknowledge their benefit or use one, especially when the work around seems to be inadequate and potentially dangerous alternatives. I also don't understand the taboo in admitting they have a viable place in training if circumstance is within the collars capability to assist short term. I especially like the term "desensitising the dog to the headcollar", why not be more open and truthful by saying "causing the dog discomfort until they accept it"?
> 
> To me this all seems too much like an excuse and denial of the collars actual aversive nature to convince owners their headcollar is actually a worthwhile tool. Yet prong collar users are summed up as "lazy bullies that inflict pain on their dogs needlessly instead of training" by people doing the exact same thing but with a different tool. The irony isn't being wasted, I promise. Perhaps generalising in both cases isn't as clear cut as it seems, and no-ones choice of training equipment is ever "the best one"?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


For starters r.e your comments with regards to "desensitizing the dog to the headcollar" lol, you clearly don't understand the concept or practice of desensitization and counter-conditioning! Causing the dog discomfort until they eventually accept it, is EXACTLY what desensitisation (and counter-conditioning) aims to AVOID! (Are you sure you're really familiar with the concepts and their practice LOL!)
Desensitisation consists of a gradual process, in which we set the dog up to succeed at each stage of the process!

If we were to desensitise a dog to a head collar, particularly a dog that disliked the sensation of stuff around his face, we wouldn't even put the head collar on the dog. I'd start with it in my hand, perhaps asking the dog to nose touch it (this becomes the foundation for shaping a really beautiful, "offering nose for head collar to be put on" behaviour that we will later add a cue to). I'd then pop it on the floor and get them to nose target it there (for slower dogs, I'd start by clicking and rewarding any interest in it). 
I would then gradually start by shaping the dog putting his nose in the head collar loop for just a second (CLICK!), HUGE reward, tons of reinforcement. We would continue like this very gradually increasing duration criteria (and later adding the added complication of the snap faster at the back) and keeping it 100% positive and fun! 
The whole concept of playing short clicker training games with the head collar, should dramatically change the dog's association with the head collar and having it put on him (eventually) and wearing it for durations. The whole point is that we are NOT forcing the dog at all. The dog learns to enjoy his fun head collar games. The visual cue of the headcollar and the sensation of it around his face becomes a predictor of fun stuff! :thumbsup:
More info here:
If you're really good, I'll let you wear the gentle leader!

I fail to see how a prong collar is safer or less stressful? :blink: Especially when combined with those lovely corrections! :thumbsup:

The reason I do not "acknowledge" (as you put it) the benefits of prong collars and similar contraptions, is because, quite simply I don't see any. I'd much rather take the time to teach a dog that walking by my side, is super reinforcing and fun (ideally with just a plain collar and lead, or a nice padded harness), rather than "correcting" him in to compliance and therefore becoming "unpredictable" to the dog (can they really trust you if sometimes you're lovely to them, other times you correct/punish them?)


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

lemmsy said:


> For starters r.e your comments with regards to "desensitizing the dog to the headcollar" lol, you clearly don't understand the concept or practice of desensitization and counter-conditioning! Causing the dog discomfort until they eventually accept it, is EXACTLY what desensitisation (and counter-conditioning) aims to AVOID! (Are you sure you're really familiar with the concepts and their practice LOL!)
> Desensitisation consists of a gradual process, in which we set the dog up to succeed at each stage of the process!
> 
> If we were to desensitise a dog to a head collar, particularly a dog that disliked the sensation of stuff around his face, we wouldn't even put the head collar on the dog. I'd start with it in my hand, perhaps asking the dog to nose touch it (this becomes the foundation for shaping a really beautiful, "offering nose for head collar to be put on" behaviour that we will later add a cue to). I'd then pop it on the floor and get them to nose target it there (for slower dogs, I'd start by clicking and rewarding any interest in it).
> I would then gradually start by shaping the dog putting his nose in the head collar loop for just a second (CLICK!), HUGE reward, tons of reinforcement. We would continue like this very gradually increasing duration criteria (and later adding the added complication of the snap faster at the back) and keeping it 100% positive and fun!
> The whole concept of playing short clicker training games with the head collar, should dramatically change the dog's association with the head collar and having it put on him (eventually) and wearing it for durations. The whole point is that we are NOT forcing the dog at all. The dog learns to enjoy his fun head collar games. The visual cue of the headcollar and the sensation of it around his face becomes a predictor of fun stuff! :thumbsup:
> More info here:
> If you're really good, I'll let you wear the gentle leader!
> 
> I fail to see how a prong collar is safer or less stressful? :blink: Especially when combined with those lovely corrections! :thumbsup:
> 
> The reason I do not "acknowledge" (as you put it) the benefits of prong collars and similar contraptions, is because, quite simply I don't see any. I'd much rather take the time to teach a dog that walking by my side, is super reinforcing and fun (ideally with just a plain collar and lead, or a nice padded harness), rather than "correcting" him in to compliance and therefore becoming "unpredictable" to the dog (can they really trust you if sometimes you're lovely to them, other times you correct/punish them?)


So nothing complicated or beyond the ability of the average owner who wanderes into [email protected] and bought one because "someone" recommended one? No? Even with the short bullet pointed instructions on the back of the box that a fair number will miss? No? And your 'alternative' methods are 100% reliable and have 100% success rate? Yes? Can be used in all situations by any chance? At the very least, successful enough that owners wouldn't see any benefit or need for a prong collar? Simple to master and put into practice by anyone? It seems you're leaving out more than you're putting into your points.

BTW, what 'lovely corrections' are you talking about? Safer or more dangerous that having your head wrenched sideways? Short term or long term? Easier to train off and onto a flat collar too maybe? And if your methods are that good and could be used with a headcollar then why not a prong collar? They're both, after all, aversive. Curiosity though, what's your experience with a prong colar?

regards,

Austin


----------



## leashedForLife

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold & underline added - *
> 
> The [Halti, TM] and headcollars that cause *pressure around the muzzle can, apparently, be painful*, you're much better with the ones that lead from the back of the head. At least, that's what *a friend of mine... a [qualified] dog [behaviourist*] / trainer reckons. (Sleeping Lion)


* that they hurt is here, an opinion from one person 
* a *behaviorist* has academic credentials: it's a college degree, BSc or PhD, depending; 
CAAB is one version, Veterinary Behaviorist is another. i don't know if Sleeping-Lion is a CAAB or APBC, 
but i doubt very much that she's a veterinary-behaviorist.
* a *trainer* can have college credits or degree, but it is not mandatory; indeed, anyone who 
wants to be a trainer can declare themselves one, just as anyone with a mower can offer a lawn service. 


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold & underline added - *
> Give me a slip lead any day over a headcollar. The reason we use headcollars on other animals is due to size and neck strength.
> Think about the relative position of handler and animal with a horse compared to a dog.


* dogs are much stronger than humans, pound for pound; the estimate that i have seen is 3x human-strength, 
for average dogs [over 6-MO & not elderly, etc], or 4x human-strength for muscle breeds - AmBull, Rott, APBT, etc. 
so a 60# AmStaff is a 240# human - and not a sofa-slug, a linebacker.

* this differential in strength is accompanied by faster reflexes, better leverage, 4 legs [stability], etc. 
*dogs are stronger, faster, have more endurance, better weaponry, etc, than humans - it's a given.* 
that dogs so often are thrilled to meet us more than halfway & eager to work with us is IMO a wonderful thing.

* human-reflexes are nothing to sneeze at - we can snatch our hands back faster than a rattlesnake can strike. 
*dogs make us look like we move thru molasses - * a dog can deliver 5 to 9 bites in 2 to 3 seconds, full-mouth 
& full-force bites - so human brute-force is not helpful; _*'train with one's brain, rather than pain' works to our advantage.*_

various unreferred quotes: 
NOTE bold & underline added unless stipulated; paraphrases for length or sense are [bracketed].

*ONE*
_I used a Halti... daily for 4-5 weeks... It took a good 7-10 days of getting used to it before I actually walked her on it 
but the patience was worth it... I... today started... to get our Akita... used to a Halti. [he wore it] but his lead was clipped 
to his collar, i'll prol do this for all of next week before trying to actually use the Halti. He tried to paw it off a couple of times 
but soon [stopped] - *Milliepoochie*_

* what's the problem? it's habituation; not well-done, altho well-intended; i don't have the dog WEAR a headcollar, 
even without a leash, for more than a few minutes at a time until they've worn it repeatedly, many times. 
by the time they wear it with a leash clipped to it, they are no longer fussing at all.

*TWO*
_*Head[collars*]... give you physical control of the dogs head, & where the head goes, the body will follow. But again 
they have inherent dangers, if the dog lunges or the lead is suddenly yanked then there is a good chance of damage 
to the neck muscles, which can be just as serious as damage to the windpipe. ...also... they *can be quite 
uncomfortable* for many dogs because *they fit over the nose*, which is *a very sensitive area* 
and so *they will often object quite strongly* to wearing one. -_ *Jasperss Bloke *

* combining headcollars with any form of extending leash is specifically forbidden on the packaging - 
Flexis & all their knock-offs are themselves dangerous, having caused facial injuries to many people, plus of course 
the various frights & injuries to dogs from the extending-leash; e-g, it slips from their hand & snaps toward the dog, 
whaps them in some body-part & then clatters along behind them loudly as the startled dog flees; & similar variants. 
* headcollars can be habituated easily & successfully - like *collars*, *body-harnesses*, & *T-shirts*, 
or *hats*, *sneakers* & *necklaces* - which latter 3 have no practical use that i know of, while 
a headcollar actually serves a function.

*THREE*
_...teaching a dog to heel with directional changes [using] a slip lead allows the dog a chance to respond to the increasing 
pressure (basically a negative reward)[;] with a *headcollar, there is no warning, just snap*. This changes ( ) 
the stimulus to a (painful) positive punishment._ - *Keirk *

* the instructions for 'teach heel with direction-changes' vary: Koehler says *run the other way, & use a choke-chain*; 
most say to turn abruptly, there is no 'slowly increase pressure on the slip-lead' version that i know of - if Keirk 
has one, s/he will have to provide a link. 
* *no one suggests ever that the handler should SNAP - i-e, jerk with the leash, use sudden acceleration, 
tug abruptly, or any other variation, On * A * Headcollar.* 
- it is dangerous to the dog 
- it is utterly pointless & superfluous, BECAUSE U can change the dog's direction with ounces of pressure 
- handicapped handlers & children can use a headcollar to control a dog with safety for both sides - kids obviously 
need supervision, this is not a game - but i've helped kids as young as 9-YO handle dogs as big as Danes.

*FOUR*
_He kicked off a major fuss over a [Halti]... never got used to it... he has taken to the Canny much better 
and I can complete his whole walk without getting sore arms! -_ *Verbatim *

* there's nothing about habituation, how much if any, how long... 
* the Canny was used *after* the Halti - the sensation of a noseband is not novel, any more - so one would predict 
that the 2nd headcollar *unless* it had something extra-irritating, would be accepted better than the 1st.

*FIVE*
_i use the [Halti] with [Buster]... he's got out of [it] a few times but [it] has the [safety-link] that [attaches the Halti] 
to the collar, so it's not been a big issue for me. _- *shells *

* there's nothing here to indicate the dog hates the Halti - for all we know, it's not fitted properly & falls off. 
or it's not fitted properly & he thumbs it off with a flick of his paw; or he puts his head down to sniff, the loose 
nose-loop falls forward with the change in position, & he brushes his face sideways on the grass, & slips the Halti 
off his nose - *what matters?* 
that he wears it unfussily & comfortably, is not stressed or anxious about it, & it is *correctly fitted* to avoid any 
friction, pressure, skin irritation, hair-loss, etc.

*SIX*
_I've used *one* for years on one of my dogs for the extra security, and *I couldn't be without it* when walking 
on the streets, but there has been times in the past when he's broken clean through it. _- *NoSpecialFeaturesHere* 
* one WHAT? 
* the author finds it invaluable for busy areas 
* that the dog 'breaks thru it' could simply mean the wrong size, plastic buckle breaks, etc - not that the dog 
dislikes the _____ .

*SEVEN*
_He can wear it off-lead but [tends] to rub his nose on the ground to take it off. ...I generally only put it on when 
I am going to [leash him]. He can still eat treats and drink perfectly with it on. 
I don't really know how it works but it definitely does - someone told me that... when it is over his nose it releases 
some endorphins (sp?) that make him relax..._ - *Woody10 *
* there's no name for the tool 
* it does not sound as tho the dog is very distressed 
* we don't know what habituation was done - if any

*EIGHT*
_We've tried : training classes, [Halti], harnesses, controller collar, walking slow or stopping until she releases tension 
on the lead. Nothing works, she just pulls away.  She... used a [Halti] before, like a headcollar she just 
put her head down and pulled full steam ahead. _ - *Starlight Express*

* again - no mention of what intro/habituation, if any 
* no idea how the handler uses the leash, but given the number of tools s/he ahs failed with, there is likely a skill 
issue here on the part of the handler. 
* what's a *controller collar*? 
* slow-motion walking or stop-under-tension is the HARDEST training technique, BECAUSE owners so often 
use it in a random-reward fashion: they are in a hurry, they are 'only going a short distance' [from the car to the class 
is a common excuse, which drives instructors crazy :crazy: - HOW FAR is not in the dog's calculations]

*NINE*
_I prefer... the Canny Collar, [with] a loop coming from the collar under the dog's chin as opposed to covering 
across their cheeks etc. Both [Gentle Leaders, TM] and [Haltis, TM] *I have heard* rub into the dog's eyes. - _*Golden Shadow *

* what is 'covering across their cheeks, etc' ?? 
a short diagonal joins noseband & neckband at the rear on each side - it's either 1/2-inch wide or 3/4-inch wide 
on large-sized Haltis, which hardly '*covers the cheeks*'.

* "i have heard" that white men can't jump, too - & that aliens walk among us. 

*TEN*
_Lexie [wore] a Halti on walks everyday for past 6-months &... STILL [rubs] at it, not continuously but... will rub 
at my legs..., rub on the ground and sometimes scratch at it... 
she still needs it as she pulls like a workhorse if its not on, she walks lovely & loose with it... & i want to keep 
that going. - _* Lexie2010 *

* this doesn't sound like serious distress 
* again, no mention of intro/habituation 
* Lexie walks nicely with it - she does not balk, roll, whine,...

*11*
_Yep, Flynn does & used to with a Halti too. (re [rubs] head [while wearing a Dogmatic]) - _* Malsmum* 
* this doesn't sound like serious distress 
* again, no mention of intro/habituation

*12*
_Radders doesnt rub at his head any more... we've barely been a month with it; he has a Halti, too. the problem starts 
when we take it off... he runs around like an idiot scratching where the Halti [was]... - _* lizzyboo *
* Radders wears it without any fuss 
* lots of dogs get zoomies after the leash comes off - altho i would add aerobics to many such dogs' routines, 
since most dogs are underexercised - a WALK on leash is often not even brisk point to point, it is a doddle strolling 
from one pee-spot or sniff-spot to the next, with the dog's nose down - like walking a vacuum-cleaner.

*13*
_I would go with a [Dogmatic, TM] over a [Halti, TM]... as Duke's [Halti] constantly [rides into] his eyes. - _* NicoleW *
* i've never seen this problem - is the dog a brachy-breed? is the Halti properly fitted? 
this is the *only* post on the list that might be a comfort issue, 
vs a lack of habituation or a bad-intro, & unhappy associations.

*14*
_I've always used a Halti... recently got a Dogmatic... & find it so much better, as it stays put... 
and doesn't ride-up into the eyes. - _* Malsmum *
* again, never saw this, so i can only wonder if the Halti was properly fitted.

*15*
_Her walking has improved massively... with help from the Gencon... but this is... kept loose[;] I [use it] as a back-up... 
as it [started] to hurt when she suddenly yanked towards a dog or something. - _* huskylover *
* i wonder if the very looseness does not contribute to the problem, as *slack* allows *acceleration.* 
something fitted snugly at the neck & smoothly over the face should not hurt - i am not familiar with the Gencon 
& its design - it seems there are 2 types, one with a single contact, the other with 2 control points - 
Wild4Pets - Dog Head Collars - Designer Dog Collars, Dog Bowls, Dog Beds 
http://www.wild4pets.co.uk/images/gencon_with_clip.jpg 
http://www.wild4pets.co.uk/images/gencon_no_clip.jpg 
QUOTE, 
_The Headcollar simply loops around your dogs nose & neck (through a ring at the side). When your dog pulls, 
the Headcollar tightens, ensuring your dog backs off from the restriction, in other words STOPS PULLING!
This gentle action is from the side of the head & does not pull your dogs head round. The Headcollar will not ride up into 
your dogs eyes (a common problem with some headcollar designs). Only *gentle pressure* is required - *do not jerk*._

* so this is a different design - it's one piece of fabric, & tightens around the face from the leash slip-ring. 
* again, like all other headcollars i've seen, they specify Don't Jerk, use gentle handling.

*16*
_ Yes, my OH bought a headcollar, & has... her [wear] it on their walks, but she... constantly [tries] to get it off. - _* ellebelle *
* again, no mention of intro/habituation

*17*
_ ...most dogs need conditioning [to feel] it's a [happy] thing, otherwise they [constantly try] to get it off as it feels 
very unnatural for them. - _ HWAR 
* i would not say MOST dogs, i would simply say, ALL dogs 
* if U have never seen a 12-MO or 2-YO dog who has never worn a collar don one for the first time, think bronc. 
they hate it - in a few days, they ignore it. in a month, they feel funny without one - and these are adults. 
* habituation does not mean it's hateful or aversive - only novel.

*18*
_I have a double-ended lead & clip one end to Kilo's collar, & one to the [Dogmatic] for safety. It is more expensive 
than most headcollars but is padded & doesn't ride up into the eyes & seems well tolerated. - _*Dogless *
* where's the problem, other than slightly-higher co$t? 
* says it's safe, padded, doesn't 'ride into the eyes' [again, a problem i've never had or seen, so new to me]. 
* no mention if the AUTHOR has had a headcollar which rode into the dog's eyes, or if as another author above, 
they had 'heard this said'.

*19*
_...the best [thing] to stop a dog coughing or choking is something like a [Halti, TM]... it applies no pressure... 
to the chest & throat, but my dog hates [headcollars] with a passion, & for the number of times she [coughs], 
i'll stick with the harness. - _* LexiLou2 *
* no idea how the headcollar was intro'd, or if it was habituated at all before the leash was clipped on. 
* 'hating' headcollars is again a function of novelty & then later, association.
* i am guessing this dog has tracheal issues, which yes, would be an ideal use for a headcollar, sadly. 
for small dogs under 20# a harness clipped in the rear is usable, but often dogs over 15# do better with a front-clip 
harness which cannot control the dog's *gaze - * critical with predatory or aggro issues - but can easily turn the dog 
using minimal effort on the handler's part, & with minimal force exerted on the dog - FORCE here used in the physics 
sense, not punitive but simply work / friction / pounds per square inch, momentum, etc.

out of 19 quotes, i only found *one* which appears to be a *comfort* issue, rather than a likely after-effect 
of a less-than-tactful intro, and / or simple lack of habituation, and / or *a leash & hardware which is much 
too heavy for the headcollar - * most owners with dogs over 50# need a new, lighter leash or lighter clip, 
when they switch to a headcollar; since the dog's leverage is much reduced & the control is on the dog's head, 
*bull snaps, double-thickness inch-wide or 1.5-inch wide leashes, 3-inch long brass swivel-snaps, 
& similar leashes or hardware are over-kill -* they are ridiculously heavy, & more to the point, 
clipped on a headcollar *all that weight is directly on the dog's face - & the dog won't like it.*

i have used 1/2-inch wide veggie-tanned leashes on 120# dogs wearing headcollars without any struggle 
to control the dog, and more important, without any extra-weight on the dog's head - very comfortable. 
that one change can alter the dog's opinion of headcollars almost instantly. :001_smile: 
cheers, 
- terry


----------



## leashedForLife

lemmsy said:


> Causing the dog discomfort until they eventually accept it, is EXACTLY what desensitisation
> (and counter-conditioning) aims to AVOID!...
> Desensitisation consists of a gradual process, in which we set the dog up to succeed at each stage of the process!
> 
> ...to desensitise a dog to a head collar, particularly a dog that disliked the sensation of stuff around his face,
> we wouldn't even put the head collar on the dog. I'd start with it in my hand, perhaps asking the dog to nose touch it
> (this becomes the foundation for shaping a really beautiful, "offering nose for head collar to be put on" behaviour
> that we will later add a cue to). I'd then pop it on the floor and get them to nose target it there (for slower dogs,
> I'd start by clicking and rewarding any interest in it).
> I would then gradually start by shaping the dog putting his nose in the head collar loop for just a second (CLICK!),
> HUGE reward, tons of reinforcement. We would continue like this very gradually increasing duration criteria
> (and later adding the added complication of the snap faster at the back) and keeping it 100% positive and fun!
> The whole concept of playing short clicker training games with the head collar, should dramatically change
> the dog's association with the head collar and having it put on him (eventually) and wearing it for durations.
> The whole point is that we are NOT forcing the dog at all. The dog learns to enjoy his fun head collar games.
> The visual cue of the headcollar and the sensation of it around his face becomes a predictor of fun stuff! :thumbsup:
> 
> More info here:
> If you're really good, I'll let you wear the gentle leader!


_Click! :thumbup: _


----------



## leashedForLife

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> You weren't offered a ticket to anything btw.


post #119 - *bold added - *


> 07-04-2011, 03:16 AM
> newfiesmum
> Re: self correction collar
> 
> Quote: *LuvMyDog_Worldwide -* reply to Rob:
> ...as an admitted amature... this isn't your area of 'expertise' and I've had literally years to fine tune
> this exact argument that won't make you look good. ...*'do you really want to ride this train'?*
> ------------
> Why are you assuming that there are no experts on this thread?
> There are experienced trainers on this thread, some with a degree in animal behaviour, yet you go ahead and assume
> that we are all amateurs. *Yes, I would like to ride this train, please. *


ride, ticket - quibbling over details. U said U would provide *proof* - the multiple of anecdote is not data. 


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> here's the harness version:
> 
> I used a Halti anti-pull harness - *Rob*


* how are we supposed to react to this? i see nothing remarkable here. 


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> One of the first signs of an ineffective harness is bald spots under the front [armpits] where the harness has rubbed
> & if allowed to continue this can cause severe discomfort; constant lunging against a harness can also cause skeletal
> [and / or] spinal problems, especially in young or developing dogs. - *Jaspers Bloke*


* ill-fitting; sharp edges; wrong size harness; used on-leash for too long at a time, under tension; flooding the dog, 
getting too close to triggers for arousal, aggro, & other reactive responses; etc.

* cheaply-made & often poorly-designed 'anti-pull' harnesses often cause abrasions or break hair, due to friction; 
avoid ANY harness with round cords intended to go under the forelegs, or with sharp edges, thin stiff straps, 
lumpy joints & crooked seams, or other signs of bad construction: flimsy buckles, no 'bumpers' to retain the buckles 
or prevent the slides falling off the end of a strap, and so on.


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...harnesses do have their problems... [my dog] is so sensitive on her chest & throat she has a chest-plate
> to spread any pressure she puts on it, but her chest is pretty much bald as a result, & [she] doesn't pull,
> ...the harness [rubs] against her chest [as she] walks, so I don't know what damage it would do if she...
> constantly [lunged & pulled]. - *LexiLou2*


* sounds as if the harness does not fit properly - there should not be that degree of movement, slithering 
& sliding about on the dog when the harness is under tension signals a poor-fit or wrong-size, IME.

* the materials used to make harnesses vary widely - a name-brand here would be useful, since some cheap webbing 
has wickedly sharp edges that can practically give U a paper-cut; cheap materials don't always mean a cheap item, 
either; unscrupulous makers will construct their product from junk-material, yet charge whatever the market will bear - 
which is often close to or even more-than a similar product made of quality material, meaning higher profits.



LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> [my] dog... pulled so bad on a harness that *he got sores on his chest*. - *PoisonGirl*





LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> _I found the [*Walkeze] rubbed* under Zipper's *armpits* & was very uncomfortable for him, I think it depends
> on the dog's body-shape. The Halti[-harness?] needed to be constantly readjusted as *it seemed to work... loose*. - _*Fleur*


the Walkeze - 
http://dogtrainingharnesses.co.uk/images/product/P1000383_resize1219841583_979.jpg 
i don't see a connecting point for the leash on the chest - so i presume it clips above the shoulders? 
but from the fit on this Airedale, it sits _*well-behind*_ the armpits, & as the girth is vertical, the strap 
should never be 'in' the armpits; it does not slant across under the foreleg to the chest, but goes clear round the body.

Halti harness - 
Halti Dog Harness 
Mastiff, Viszla & JRT model the harness. 
QUOTE, _"...the Halti Harness... steers from the chest: an effective point of control. ... Best used in conjunction 
with the double-ended Halti Training Lead, linked to both the chest & shoulder rings of the harness." _

i don't know why it would get loose as the dog walked - i must presume the adjustable slides were slipping, 
but washing the harness may help if so: oils from the dog's coat can make the nylon slide more easily, the plastic 
adjusting-slides are only held in place by friction. Since the adjustments are what slip, safety-pins thru 2 layers 
of the strap ON the open-slot of the slides will prevent much movement.



LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> _...a harness... just *gave him something to pull... on*. Mostly he walks very well on a collar, sometimes he pulls...
> on the collar but my thinking is, if it [hurt] him, he wouldn't do it -- right? -_*Marley Boy*


* a harness with the leash-ring in the traditional spot - *at the rear of the harness, behind the dog's ribs - * 
is designed for pulling; actually, mechanically it is designed for pushing, as dogs move from their rears: 
the front-end steers & carries more weight, the back-end is the engine, & the dog *PUSHES* on a chest-strap.

* since this dog rarely pulls, there's no need for a harness; the owner does not mention any tracheal problems.



LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I tried the harness for my first Springer & *he pulled more; he [actually] rubbed the... armpits sore*,
> the head collar didn't help much, either - that caused other problems - *Haeveymolly*


* again, probable rear-clip harness; no brand-name. 
* sounds like one of the poorly-designed 'anti-pull' harnesses, which often cause burns or abrasions. 


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> A harness for my [Malamutes] is disastrous - *they're natural pullers*... so your views [do] not [take] into account
> how different breeds would walk [in a harness]. - *MalMum*


* so? again, a rear-clip harness IS INTENDED for pulling, & Mals are freighting dogs. 
* a front-clip harness will stop the pulling, & give better control if the dog wants to chase birds, etc.


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> _the [Halti, TM] body-harness... [seems] to work great... with the double-ended lead, but ive found it loosens
> as we walk & that slack... starts the pulling again. ...he never was bad at pulling on the lead [before,]
> but recently he's become way too-powerful for me to walk... unless i use a headcollar... i can't walk him,
> & he hates the headcollar. - _*leah84 *


* again, wash the harness to ensure it's oil-free; if the problem persists, pin THRU the overlying straps at the slides 
using safety-pins so the dog is not poked. 
* re-introduce the headcollar if that is preferable, & this time make sure the dog's introduction is happy & enjoyable; 
then begin habituation, which takes 5 to 10-days before the leash goes on the heacollar - 7-days is average. 
*by the time the leash goes onto the headcollar for that first walk, the mere sight of it 
should get the dog's tail wagging in happy expectation, with a big smile: "where are we going?"*


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> It [has] just 3 straps, one... over the dogs shoulders, the second under their belly (...a loop... just behind the front legs)
> & a final strap... across... the chest from shoulder to shoulder. The front strap has a webbing-loop with a ring on it
> to attach the lead. It works like a martingale collar, tightening very slightly across the chest under tension,
> ...because the lead [clips] to the front... any pulling into the harness will push the dog around in front of you. - *Jaspers Bloke*


* this sounds like the E-Z-Walker by Premier Pet? 
* i see nothing here to worry me 
Eco Easy Walker Dog Harness - PetSupplies.com 


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> harnesses that tighten, rub, *release the dogs*... and they're not painful, [don't] cause injury or aren't aversives?


* some harnesses tighten under leash-tension, yes - but the tightening, unlike the *slip-leads* U say U like, 
is not infinite - U cannot pull the end of the harness thru the rings, because the loop is a connector between 2 rings. 
*a slip-lead by contrast can be pulled completely thru the ring, making a straight line with a ring at either end; 
the dog's neck gets in the way of the slip-lead closing to infinity, & it is easy to throttle a dog, hang the dog, 
or 'choke down' a dog by limiting their airway; the dog can pass out, rupture small blood vessels in the eyes, 
weave like a drunk after the stricture is released due to lack of O2 in the brain, have a stroke [elevated BP], 
throw a clot & die [cardiac or pulmonary embolism], & so on.*

the martingale-loop across the forechest presents none of those hazards.

* harnesses that are correctly sized & fitted, no matter what their purpose, should NEVER abrade the skin. 
there may be some hair breakage, especially on long-haired breeds with stiff guard-hair above the undercoat, 
but it should be barely noticeable; if there are 'harness tracks' of broken hair then the harness is the wrong size, 
not fitted properly, or the dog is being very badly handled - encouraged to lunge wildly at a suspended toy, 
teased into lunging at a person / decoy, taken too close to other dogs when the handler knows the dog to be 
reactive [possibly in a misguided attempt to rehab the dog, but B-Mod is done *under threshold, not over*], 
or something similar.


----------



## Dogless

*18*
_I have a double-ended lead & clip one end to Kilo's collar, & one to the [Dogmatic] for safety. It is more expensive 
than most headcollars but is padded & doesn't ride up into the eyes & seems well tolerated. - _*Dogless *
* where's the problem, other than slightly-higher co$t? 
* says it's safe, padded, doesn't 'ride into the eyes' [again, a problem i've never had or seen, so new to me]. 
* no mention if the AUTHOR has had a headcollar which rode into the dog's eyes, or if as another author above, 
they had 'heard this said'.

LFL; I have not personally tried a halti on my dog, just the Dogmatic. The reason behind my statement is that I see the same breed of dog as mine daily walked on a halti and she is forever struggling to get it off. It also ends up making her eyes water or sometimes ends up positioned over the eyes. I am not saying that this is down to the headcollar itself, probably owner error / poor fit but after much research I decided on the Dogmatic.


----------



## Blondie

Have been reading this again, and what comments from some folk!!

Personally, I think all these canny collars, head collars, halti's and blah blah blah are basically a money spinner for the manufacturers. I tried halti's and canny collar on my rottie bitch and it didnt work - FULL STOP!! She hated them and wouldnt do a thing, in fact, no matter what we did, she could get the halti off herself in seconds. 

Darla actually responded to a check chain the best, no hassle, no resistance etc etc. She wears a half check now and has done for years and can be walked without a problem on this.

As for the prong collar comments, what do the people against them suggest for rehabilitating a mature, truly red-zone, powerful rottie male??? A Halti???? I dont blooming think so!!! My boy has even snapped his check chain without much of an effort at all so WTF is one of these fancy collar inventions going to do???


----------



## grandad

The only one I've personally seen that had instant results in calming a dog is the "Gencon"


----------



## Guest

grandad said:


> The only one I've personally seen that had instant results in calming a dog is the "Gencon"


I have a gencon all in one. Buster fights it tooth and nail, like he did the halti and canny collar  silly stubborn terrier. Although, after 10mins or so he gives up fighting as i have to hold it high and close to me to stop him from getting it off and being able to throw himself about so much - then he walks nicely. So i really think different devices works on different dogs. 
I
was advised to use a prong collar by the same silly trainer that wanted him on a remote collar, and although he didnt pull on it, its a horrible device and iv never used it! Just had the instruction session from said trainer.


----------



## grandad

Savahl said:


> I have a gencon all in one. Buster fights it tooth and nail, like he did the halti and canny collar  silly stubborn terrier. Although, after 10mins or so he gives up fighting as i have to hold it high and close to me to stop him from getting it off and being able to throw himself about so much - then he walks nicely. So i really think different devices works on different dogs.
> I
> was advised to use a prong collar by the same silly trainer that wanted him on a remote collar, and although he didnt pull on it, its a horrible device and iv never used it! Just had the instruction session from said trainer.


The one I saw, at it was the first time I ever saw the gen con, It was put on so that the buckle part and the lead was by the dog's ear. Right ear for left hand side walking. 
It sort of went into a figure of eight and went round the muzzle and the neck. It did seem a little difficult to put on, put once it was on correctly (put on by a pro trainer) the dog visible calmed. it was quite amazing.


----------



## Guest

grandad said:


> The one I saw, at it was the first time I ever saw the gen con, It was put on so that the buckle part and the lead was by the dog's ear. Right ear for left hand side walking.
> It sort of went into a figure of eight and went round the muzzle and the neck. It did seem a little difficult to put on, put once it was on correctly (put on by a pro trainer) the dog visible calmed. it was quite amazing.


The all in one is basically the fig 8 and lead all in one, no buckles etc.

Its not hard to put one, just a knack i guess... but buster knows exactly how to get these things off! Same as anything the goes across his nose lol...the second he gets any lead slack, he forces his nose to the floor, and pushes it off with his feet! Hes a strong little bugger and can really hold his head in position to do it!!

If he is REALLY pushing to get somewhere, he will push through it, which sounds like it effects his breathing as he snorts and wheezes when he does it. So its really a behavioural issue to break with training rather than devices, and he can loose lead walk - but to be perfectly honest when it takes nearly 50mins to walk 10mins to the field when we have limited daylight in the winter, i just give in and let him pull so he can get him exercise after work.

I know its my fault, and Its something i am really going to work on this summer, while i have more than half hr of daylight left after work.


----------



## grandad

Savahl said:


> The all in one is basically the fig 8 and lead all in one, no buckles etc.
> 
> Its not hard to put one, just a knack i guess... but buster knows exactly how to get these things off! Same as anything the goes across his nose lol...the second he gets any lead slack, he forces his nose to the floor, and pushes it off with his feet! Hes a strong little bugger and can really hold his head in position to do it!!
> 
> If he is REALLY pushing to get somewhere, he will push through it, which sounds like it effects his breathing as he snorts and wheezes when he does it. So its really a behavioural issue to break with training rather than devices, and he can loose lead walk - but to be perfectly honest when it takes nearly 50mins to walk 10mins to the field when we have limited daylight in the winter, i just give in and let him pull so he can get him exercise after work.
> 
> I know its my fault, and Its something i am really going to work on this summer, while i have more than half hr of daylight left after work.


Even though it's a gencon, you still have to LLW. I wouldn't leave the house until he is settled. He may be having an adrenalin rush because it is walkies time and rushes to get to the field. Hence the pulling. Have you tried taking more time to settle him before leaving the house?


----------



## Guest

grandad said:


> Even though it's a gencon, you still have to LLW. I wouldn't leave the house until he is settled. He may be having an adrenalin rush because it is walkies time and rushes to get to the field. Hence the pulling. Have you tried taking more time to settle him before leaving the house?


Yeah, i dont leave the house for as long as it takes for him to settle down, but it just kicks starts again once we step out the front door. Then normally another 10-15 mins to get out of the flats area onto the road, then kick starts again.

Iv done ALOT of LLW training with him, and when in the training mode he does it. At agility he will do it, in classes he will do it, just training outside but not in the direction of any fields he knows of he will do it... The min he thinks he is goin to a field it goes out the window. Its a shame pawsative isnt about this weekend as a witness for me lol, shes done some training with us and knows him inside out.

This is why the prong collar was suggested to me, the old school trainer was so infuriated by him that he said he was too stubborn for normal LLW lol. But then he was an idiot, and id never take my dog to the man again! I know that its just consistancy - and due to time constraints in the winter any progress made in the summer goes out the window as I let him get away with more just so I dont run out of time before sundown.


----------



## grandad

Savahl said:


> Yeah, i dont leave the house for as long as it takes for him to settle down, but it just kicks starts again once we step out the front door. Then normally another 10-15 mins to get out of the flats area onto the road, then kick starts again.
> 
> Iv done ALOT of LLW training with him, and when in the training mode he does it. At agility he will do it, in classes he will do it, just training outside but not in the direction of any fields he knows of he will do it... The min he thinks he is goin to a field it goes out the window. Its a shame pawsative isnt about this weekend as a witness for me lol, shes done some training with us and knows him inside out.
> 
> This is why the prong collar was suggested to me, the old school trainer was so infuriated by him that he said he was too stubborn for normal LLW lol. But then he was an idiot, and id never take my dog to the man again! I know that its just consistancy - and due to time constraints in the winter any progress made in the summer goes out the window as I let him get away with more just so I dont run out of time before sundown.


Any self control training?


----------



## Dogless

Ceearott said:


> Have been reading this again, and what comments from some folk!!
> 
> Personally, I think all these canny collars, head collars, halti's and blah blah blah are basically a money spinner for the manufacturers. I tried halti's and canny collar on my rottie bitch and it didnt work - FULL STOP!! She hated them and wouldnt do a thing, in fact, no matter what we did, she could get the halti off herself in seconds.
> 
> Darla actually responded to a check chain the best, no hassle, no resistance etc etc. She wears a half check now and has done for years and can be walked without a problem on this.
> 
> As for the prong collar comments, what do the people against them suggest for rehabilitating a mature, truly red-zone, powerful rottie male??? A Halti???? I dont blooming think so!!! My boy has even snapped his check chain without much of an effort at all so WTF is one of these fancy collar inventions going to do???


If I happen to be one of the people whose comments you find ridiculous: I know nothing about rehabilitating powerful rotties so could not comment; but have been basing my opinions on aids to assist in teaching LLW and control in my 'normal' - if there is such a thing - dog. I have made it clear in my posts that it is the case.

The rehabilitation of powerful dogs is a whole different kettle of fish and something on which I am definitely not qualified to pass comment.


----------



## Guest

grandad said:


> Any self control training?


such as....?


----------



## grandad

Savahl said:


> such as....?


Because of the work I do in the forests, my dog cannot chase any thing that moves. Wildlfe being the prime example. Squirrels, rabbits, deer, birds and hares may appear out of nowhere anytime and run right across our path, so he has to show self control and ignore them completely. It's the same when he is in the back of the truck, the door may be open, but he won't come out until invited. I may be doing some work and he is in the vicinity and wildlife wil be around, but he won't chase. He won't go through a door before me, but will sit and wait to be called through. All of this is self control. He does without command. 
One of the ways to teach self control for example is teaching them not to charge out of the car/truck. For two reasons, 1 for safety, 2, to let the adrenalin rush recede. 
To do this is quite simple. When you arrive at a walking spot, take your time and if when you open the car door,your dog rushes to get out, close the door quickly. BE VERY CAREFUL. DO NOT SLAM the door on the dog (for obvious reasons) just close it quickly but leave a small opening. The dog should back off. DO NOT SAY ANYTHING THROUGHOUT THIS PROCEDURE. It may take a couple of times or more for the dog to eventually get the message an sit there. Once thathas been achieved leave the door open and keep them sat there if they go to move, go to close the door again. Once everything has settled down, put the lead on and when you ready invite them out of the car, but ensure they go directly to heel, if they don't, put them back in the car again. You may have to repeat this a number of times, but evetually you will be able to pull up open the car door and the dog will sit waiting to be invited out.Therefore exercising self control. You can also do this with doors at home and especially the door that leads out into the big wide world.


----------



## lucylastic

Good advice Grandad. Self control did not come easily to my dog, and I have used a very similar method to the one you describe. The first session took over an hour!. Now she waits to be invited every time. This basic exercise has improved her self control in other situations too. Although I use a crate in the car, I still want her to wait when I open the door and not just barge out.


----------



## grandad

lucylastic said:


> Good advice Grandad. Self control did not come easily to my dog, and I have used a very similar method to the one you describe. The first session took over an hour!. Now she waits to be invited every time. This basic exercise has improved her self control in other situations too. Although I use a crate in the car, I still want her to wait when I open the door and not just barge out.


Ta! It worked for me and i beleive in = Do what works, Don't do what doesn't


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Savahl said:


> I have a gencon all in one. Buster fights it tooth and nail, like he did the halti and canny collar  silly stubborn terrier. Although, after 10mins or so he gives up fighting as i have to hold it high and close to me to stop him from getting it off and being able to throw himself about so much - then he walks nicely. So i really think different devices works on different dogs.
> I
> was advised to use a prong collar by the same silly trainer that wanted him on a remote collar, and although he didnt pull on it, its a horrible device and iv never used it! Just had the instruction session from said trainer.


Um, where to start? From what you've described this is completely unsuitable for your dog, as was the halti, as was the canny. Why are you so persiatant in causing your dog distress with something he obviously doesn't like? Also, why haven't you trained him off the headcollar and onto a flat collar (rhetorical, no need to answer that....)

You say he didn't pull on a prong collar when you tried it? Was he in pain or fighting to get it off? If he wasn't pulling and wasn't in pain why on earth wouldn't you use it instead and take the oportunity of having his attention to start training lead manners with the aim to be onto a flat collar? I'm very curious how you've decided it's a horrible device after trying 3 other horrible devices and sticking with one?

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Savahl said:


> The all in one is basically the fig 8 and lead all in one, no buckles etc.
> 
> Its not hard to put one, just a knack i guess... but buster knows exactly how to get these things off! Same as anything the goes across his nose lol...the second he gets any lead slack, he forces his nose to the floor, and pushes it off with his feet! Hes a strong little bugger and can really hold his head in position to do it!!
> 
> If he is REALLY pushing to get somewhere, he will push through it, which sounds like it effects his breathing as he snorts and wheezes when he does it. So its really a behavioural issue to break with training rather than devices, and he can loose lead walk - but to be perfectly honest when it takes nearly 50mins to walk 10mins to the field when we have limited daylight in the winter, i just give in and let him pull so he can get him exercise after work.
> 
> I know its my fault, and Its something i am really going to work on this summer, while i have more than half hr of daylight left after work.


Eeep, just spotted this after the last one. I'm not trying to be critical of you, just this statement backs up a few points I've been making about headcollars not being the safe, friendly, miracle cure for a pulling dog that others have been trying to make out and defend.

It's a behavioral issue, yes, but you won't even begin to make headway with that collar. All he's thinking while he's on that gencon from what you describe is:
"why is my head so high, i can't wait to get a chance to pull this thing off and escape...what's that over there, *snort* *choke* ahh, the pain"

At what point in that are you ever going to get a command to sink in anywhere within that? You simply won't get his attention at all. You could even go to the North pole and have 24 hours of daylight to work on it, it's going to be an uphill battle and a long, slow, stressful, painful, and unsafe process using that equipment, especially so if you have limited time after work to do it in.

Bin that headcollar and have another think, seriously.

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

leashedForLife said:


> **SNIP**


All I heard there is "blah blah", guesses and ignorance, oh, and a porky pie thrown in at the end. Terry, if that's your best analysis and suggestions I wouldn't trust you to scoop up after a dog. Impressive letters behind your name btw, do they mean anything?

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

newfiesmum said:


> It took two minutes to find this one. I am sure there are lots more out there.


_Well, that's me convinced. I'll throw all my prong collars away after seeing that. Out of curiosity, did you research what actually caused that injury and why first?

regards,

Austin_

**edit** good to see sarcasm isn't wasted on you Rob....thanks for the like, I think??

The dog in this picture was left chained in a back yard and ignored on a static line and a prong collar, it's a case of neglect, not a direct injury from use of a prong collar. The collar had been on for so long it was hidden by the fur, and they had to cut it away to a) find and b) remove the collar, you'll notice the fur around the neck is shorter than the head and body, the collar had disappeared under it. The collar had been left on for so long that skin had actually started to grow over the prongs (those aren't 'puncture' wounds from use...), which leads me to believe it was a cheap pet shop bought collar (I'd be guessing at which brand but could probably get a 50/50 against 2) with chisel cut ends, not the best by quite some way. If that would have been a flat collar it would have strangled the dog, but in a kind of fortunate tragedy way the dog was just wearing a prong which didn't compress the airways or bloodflow in the neck and wouldn't have done unless the dog doubled in size.

But you two did some research first and already knew that, no? This picture's done the rounds for a very very long time, look a few posts back from the original, how did I know you were going to pick that one?

regards,

David Blaine (no, not really, it's me...)


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

leashedForLife said:


> * that they hurt is here, an opinion from one person *
> 
> _The Headcollar simply loops around your dogs nose & neck (through a ring at the side). When your dog pulls, the Headcollar tightens, ensuring your dog backs off from the restriction, in other words STOPS PULLING!
> This gentle action is from the side of the head & does not pull your dogs head round. The Headcollar will not ride up into your dogs eyes (a common problem with some headcollar designs)._
> * so this is a different design - it's one piece of fabric, & tightens around the face from the leash slip-ring.
> 
> *i don't have the dog WEAR a headcollar, even without a leash, for more than a few minutes at a time until they've worn it repeatedly, many times. by the time they wear it with a leash clipped to it, they are no longer fussing at all.
> Only *gentle pressure* is required - *do not jerk*.[/i]


Right, have a bit more time now. Let's have a look at 2 very important points from your retort. The statement from the Gencon:

Uh oh, it tightens around the snout, then loosens when the dog stops pulling. Hmmm, that sounds to me like it causes physical discomfort, and the dog stops the physical discomfort by stopping the pulling. If the dog doesn't stop......? Sorry, I must be mistaking that for punitive. The dog needs to learn and associate the tightening around the face with pulling and not pulling, that's quite a feat of reasoning for an animal with limited cognitive skills. (I'm almost certain that's some of the psychology stuff they taught when I did my degree, might even find a use for the learning, behavior, environment and motivation stuff too one day....)

They seem to think other designs have a problem with the headcollar pulling into dog's eyes. Wow, a manufacturer admitting a design flaw in other manufacturers equipment, bet they'd have to be brave and stupid, or have documented proof before making such an outlandish statement. I'll bet that's not comfortable, the eye thing and all, I was about to doubt it happened until a manufacturer stated it did, but surely that's not dangerous or liable to cause injury. So, headcollars are non painful and completely safe then. Phew, makes me feel better.

This one doesn't pull the dog's head around. Is that implying others do? I think so. And having the head pulled around is also completely safe? Obviously not or they wouldn't have an alternative design. I wonder how adjustable this one is? Seems some headcollars with limited adjustment can't be made to fit snuggly, even some of the top name brands. That's reassuring to know if it relies on being a snug fit to be safe(ish). I'm almost sold on headcollars now. Perhaps I should stop questioning people who are convinced they're not aversive?

Re: getting the dog used to it for days and days on end before taling the dog out with it. To be completely honest, Terry, it's not like I don't want to be pulled into the road in 3 months, or 3 weeks, or 3 days time....I don't want to be pulled into the road tomorrow morning! So, prong collar on, several minutes in the garden getting used to it, out the gate and walking. And rather than tug and yank at it I'll just use a little gentle pressure, with praise and rewards and see how that gets on. Helps a little that the dog doesn't need to learn how to avoid points of pressure, it's hardwired into all of us.... instincively.... it's how we make it through the day and happens almost constantly so we're very well equipt to deal with it and couldn't survive without it. Instinct is particularly useful where learning and reasoning isn't a strong point, especially when it's something we rely on constantly and are already "desensitised" to it. Seriously though, do you think a dog looks at a prong collars and thinks (with limited cognative skills and zero internet/forum reading skills) "ooh, that looks like it's gonna hurt" or does the owner do that?

But I'm preaching to a qualified trainer, you must already know all this.  Is there any need to address all your points? No, that's rhetorical.

regards,

Austin


----------



## leashedForLife

Dogless said:


> LFL; I have not personally tried a halti on my dog, just the Dogmatic. The reason behind my statement
> is that I see the same breed of dog as mine daily walked on a halti and she is forever struggling to get it off. It also ends up
> making her eyes water or sometimes ends up positioned over the eyes. I am not saying that this is down to the headcollar
> itself, probably owner error / poor fit but after much research I decided on the Dogmatic.


thanks very much for the clarification, Dogless.


----------



## leashedForLife

Ceearott said:


> As for the prong-collar comments, what do the people against them suggest for rehabilitating a mature, truly red-zone,
> powerful rottie male??? A Halti???? I dont blooming think so!!! My boy has even snapped his check chain without
> much of an effort at all so WTF is one of these fancy collar inventions going to do???


 i've used headcollars on ginormous powerful dogs :001_smile: also front-clip harnesses or wide fabric-martingales, depending. 
some were predatory, others were dog-aggro, some were human-aggro; they did fine without prongs or choke-chains.
some had bite-histories; no one got bitten once we began B-Mod, the owners managed them carefully & there were 
no more provoking events or flooding; some still needed a headcollar on the street or in a park, in case they saw prey 
pop up, like a squirrel close-by, and went for the beastie, but for most of them it was only needed for training.

BTW - a short double-ended jumper can clip from headcollar to tag-collar, if U want back-up, and if the dog is likely 
to re-direct to the handler or a dog-housemate, a box-muzzle is a good idea.


----------



## leashedForLife

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Right, have a bit more time now. Let's have a look at 2 very important points from your retort. The statement from the Gencon:


i have not used a Gencon & never heard of them before joining PF-uk. 


LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Re: getting the dog used to it for days and days on end before [taking?] the dog out with it. To be completely honest,
> Terry, it's not like I don't want to be pulled into the road in 3 months, or 3 weeks, or 3 days time...
> I don't want to be pulled into the road tomorrow morning! ...


post #189 - 


leashedForLife said:


> * the last time i used [a prong collar] was [approx] 1981, it was already on the dog, a 150# harlequin Great Dane,
> and he was a cat-killer; the prong availed nothing, he came within an inch of killing us both, running toward a street
> full of traffic to GET TO A CAT on a windowsill, on the far side! i switched the owner to a properly-fitted
> all fabric martingale collar, 2-inches wide - and no more problems.
> 
> * nowadays i would *put him on a front-clip H-harness*, if the owner was willing, & take 5 days or so to habituate him
> to a Gentle Leader headcollar - with the front-clip harness *as the immediate-use management tool*.


the H-harness requires zero habituation - fit it, clip the leash on the chest, & walk out the door; no worries! :thumbup:

once the dog is using the headcollar, the H-harness can be used as back-up with a double-ended leash if desired, 
or the headcollar can be used on its own & the H-harness used as a seat-belt restraint in the car, or use the rear-clip, 
& clip the dog to a cargo-latch in the floor of the boot, or a seat-lock [with the seats folded down].
the front-clip H-harness can also be used with a bicycle to bike-jog the dog, or clipped at the rear for bike-jor, 
ski-jor, & other pulling sports.

if U compete or train in weight-pulling, an X-back harness is the state of the art - not an H-harness. 
http://www.alaskan-husky-behavior.com/image-files/bikejoring3.jpg 
but just for fun, an H-harness will serve nicely.


----------



## Guest

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Eeep, just spotted this after the last one. I'm not trying to be critical of you, just this statement backs up a few points I've been making about headcollars not being the safe, friendly, miracle cure for a pulling dog that others have been trying to make out and defend.
> 
> It's a behavioral issue, yes, but you won't even begin to make headway with that collar. All he's thinking while he's on that gencon from what you describe is:
> "why is my head so high, i can't wait to get a chance to pull this thing off and escape...what's that over there, *snort* *choke* ahh, the pain"
> 
> At what point in that are you ever going to get a command to sink in anywhere within that? You simply won't get his attention at all. You could even go to the North pole and have 24 hours of daylight to work on it, it's going to be an uphill battle and a long, slow, stressful, painful, and unsafe process using that equipment, especially so if you have limited time after work to do it in.
> 
> Bin that headcollar and have another think, seriously.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


for the record, his loose lead training is ALWAYS on collar or harness, so i dont need to rethink - i already know that. The gencon is only used occassionally, normally when his harness is in the wash, and he is so excited he chokes himself on the normal collar.

It doesnt hurt him, but is uncomfortable when he is in such a frenzy that he pulls through it rather than occassionally attempting to pull it off. But I am more than aware that its not a miracle device!

The prong WAS uncomforatble for him.. He actually refused to let me put it on him when walk time came, the tail bolted down, head down, ran off to a corner - submissive signals all over the shop. And he did yelp when corrected with it. And dont tell me it was incorrectly fitted as this was whilst used by the trainer, not me. THATS why i refuse to use it. I dont need any "device", check chain and prong included, to train buster to LLW - i just need to really buckle down and train him!!

Grandad, thanks for the advice re: self control. This is what i have tried whilst getting out the flat, but i ran out of daylight on normal walking and it kinda got put to one side. Now we have longer days I will give it another attempt.


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Savahl said:


> for the record, his loose lead training is ALWAYS on collar or harness, so i dont need to rethink - i already know that. The gencon is only used occassionally, normally when his harness is in the wash, and he is so excited he chokes himself on the normal collar.
> 
> It doesnt hurt him, but is uncomfortable when he is in such a frenzy that he pulls through it rather than occassionally attempting to pull it off. But I am more than aware that its not a miracle device!
> 
> The prong WAS uncomforatble for him.. He actually refused to let me put it on him when walk time came, the tail bolted down, head down, ran off to a corner - submissive signals all over the shop. And he did yelp when corrected with it. And dont tell me it was incorrectly fitted as this was whilst used by the trainer, not me. THATS why i refuse to use it. I dont need any "device", check chain and prong included, to train buster to LLW - i just need to really buckle down and train him!!
> 
> Grandad, thanks for the advice re: self control. This is what i have tried whilst getting out the flat, but i ran out of daylight on normal walking and it kinda got put to one side. Now we have longer days I will give it another attempt.


I must be the luckiest person in the world when it comes to prong collars, I've never seen this reaction personally, and can only recount one report from a customer of a dog yelping when a collar was put on (by guessing the neck size and guessing the collar size.... ) yet message boards always turn up someone (or several someones) who's had this happen. I'm also a bit alarmed about "giving him a correction", did you jerk against the lead with a prong collar on? Was this at the advice of the trainer? Would you mind PM'ing me the trainers details, I'd like to make further enquiries to varify this and see what the exact circumstances were that caused the reaction.

regards,

Austin


----------



## grandad

Savahl said:


> for the record, his loose lead training is ALWAYS on collar or harness, so i dont need to rethink - i already know that. The gencon is only used occassionally, normally when his harness is in the wash, and he is so excited he chokes himself on the normal collar.
> 
> It doesnt hurt him, but is uncomfortable when he is in such a frenzy that he pulls through it rather than occassionally attempting to pull it off. But I am more than aware that its not a miracle device!
> 
> The prong WAS uncomforatble for him.. He actually refused to let me put it on him when walk time came, the tail bolted down, head down, ran off to a corner - submissive signals all over the shop. And he did yelp when corrected with it. And dont tell me it was incorrectly fitted as this was whilst used by the trainer, not me. THATS why i refuse to use it. I dont need any "device", check chain and prong included, to train buster to LLW - i just need to really buckle down and train him!!
> 
> Grandad, thanks for the advice re: self control. This is what i have tried whilst getting out the flat, but i ran out of daylight on normal walking and it kinda got put to one side. Now we have longer days I will give it another attempt.


I think you've answered your own question here haven't you  *just need to really buckle down and train him!!*

What I would say with all due respect is...choose a tool and method and then be consistent. Swapping and changing will only confuse the dog.


----------



## Guest

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> I must be the luckiest person in the world when it comes to prong collars, I've never seen this reaction personally, and can only recount one report from a customer of a dog yelping when a collar was put on (by guessing the neck size and guessing the collar size.... ) yet message boards always turn up someone (or several someones) who's had this happen. I'm also a bit alarmed about "giving him a correction", did you jerk against the lead with a prong collar on? Was this at the advice of the trainer? Would you mind PM'ing me the trainers details, I'd like to make further enquiries to varify this and see what the exact circumstances were that caused the reaction.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


Like i said it was all unde trainers supervision and advice, They sold me it, they fitted it, they trained me how to use it and they sent me away with it. IT has been gathering dust ever since.
It wasnt a correction per say as a check coller correct, but obviously when he pulls it corrects him naturally by tightening/pinching, this made him yelp. Especially because his issues are excitement created and so he cant seem to help himself, and pulls despite the obvious pain and discomfort the collar caused - it is not cos he doesnt know how to walk nicely, he does, he just doesnt know how to control his excitement.

Im not gunna publish the trainers name as I have nothing nice to say about the man and dont think I should publicly slander him on the internet. Its for people to make their own choices on whether they use his methods or not. Ican only give my opinion. There are at least 2 people on this forum who are local and know of the trainer in question


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

leashedForLife said:


> i have not used a Gencon & never heard of them before joining PF-uk.
> 
> post #189 -
> 
> the H-harness requires zero habituation - fit it, clip the leash on the chest, & walk out the door; no worries! :thumbup:
> 
> once the dog is using the headcollar, the H-harness can be used as back-up with a double-ended leash if desired,
> or the headcollar can be used on its own & the H-harness used as a seat-belt restraint in the car, or use the rear-clip,
> & clip the dog to a cargo-latch in the floor of the boot, or a seat-lock [with the seats folded down].
> the front-clip H-harness can also be used with a bicycle to bike-jog the dog, or clipped at the rear for bike-jor,
> ski-jor, & other pulling sports.
> 
> if U compete or train in weight-pulling, an X-back harness is the state of the art - not an H-harness.
> http://www.alaskan-husky-behavior.com/image-files/bikejoring3.jpg
> but just for fun, an H-harness will serve nicely.


Soooooo...... I need a headcollar double end clipped to a harness and backflipped to a flat collar with a lead crossed over to the linking ring of the...what?

And all this will:

a) stop the dog pulling?
b) allow training?
and
c) eventually let me just use a flat buckle collar on its own?

I'm glad your equipment is simple, are there specific brands that go together or some that shouldn't be used with others on certain dogs or different versions are better for different types of training?

Only asking because I'm imagining giving this to my mom, and bless, the old dear gets a bit confused nowadays...and being a pensioner has oodles of cash to experiment with the different brands until she picks the right one.....and has a bit of difficulty with gripping or holding things with her left hand....and she's not exactly the fastest or nimblest on her feet so would want to avoid a tangle....it's a boxer cross with big floppy ears btw, never been sure what with, must have been a bassett cos she's also got stubby legs and is very spritely and very very curious.

regards,

Austin


----------



## Guest

Savahl said:


> Like i said it was all unde trainers supervision and advice, They sold me it, they fitted it, they trained me how to use it and they sent me away with it. IT has been gathering dust ever since.
> It wasnt a correction per say as a check coller correct, but obviously when he pulls it corrects him naturally by tightening/pinching, this made him yelp. Especially because his issues are excitement created and so he cant seem to help himself, and pulls despite the obvious pain and discomfort the collar caused - it is not cos he doesnt know how to walk nicely, he does, he just doesnt know how to control his excitement.
> 
> Im not gunna publish the trainers name as I have nothing nice to say about the man and dont think I should publicly slander him on the internet. Its for people to make their own choices on whether they use his methods or not. Ican only give my opinion. There are at least 2 people on this forum who are local and know of the trainer in question


Yes. I have seen several results of this "trainers" use of both e collars and pinch collars 
Even on puppies


----------



## grandad

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Soooooo...... I need a headcollar double end clipped to a harness and backflipped to a flat collar with a lead crossed over to the linking ring of the...what?
> 
> And all this will:
> 
> a) stop the dog pulling?
> b) allow training?
> and
> c) eventually let me just use a flat buckle collar on its own?
> 
> I'm glad your equipment is simple, are there specific brands that go together or some that shouldn't be used with others on certain dogs or different versions are better for different types of training?
> 
> Only asking because I'm imagining giving this to my mom, and bless, the old dear gets a bit confused nowadays...and being a pensioner has oodles of cash to experiment with the different brands until she picks the right one.....and has a bit of difficulty with gripping or holding things with her left hand....and she's not exactly the fastest or nimblest on her feet so would want to avoid a tangle....it's a boxer cross with big floppy ears btw, never been sure what with, must have been a bassett cos she's also got stubby legs and is very spritely and very very curious.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


With all the new fangled breed names around, your mums dog could be called a Boxset


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Savahl said:


> Like i said it was all unde trainers supervision and advice, They sold me it, they fitted it, they trained me how to use it and they sent me away with it. IT has been gathering dust ever since.
> It wasnt a correction per say as a check coller correct, but obviously when he pulls it corrects him naturally by tightening/pinching, this made him yelp. Especially because his issues are excitement created and so he cant seem to help himself, and pulls despite the obvious pain and discomfort the collar caused - it is not cos he doesnt know how to walk nicely, he does, he just doesnt know how to control his excitement.
> 
> Im not gunna publish the trainers name as I have nothing nice to say about the man and dont think I should publicly slander him on the internet. Its for people to make their own choices on whether they use his methods or not. Ican only give my opinion. There are at least 2 people on this forum who are local and know of the trainer in question


Ok, a prong collar doesn't pinch. It can't pinch. The design won't allow it to pinch. Was it a case of you just put it on, he pulled against it, he yelped? How much time did the trainer spend showing you how to use it, and what would you say was a short summary of that advice?

Did the collar cause this reaction when the trainer fitted it? Also curious, what make is it? If you know the gauge of the collar could you tell me how many links it has in it, and how big Busters neck was at the time? If you don't know the gauge, just the length of one link will do.

You don't need to publically mention the trainer, you can PM it to me, I know a cople of trainers around the RH area, although none that regularly use prongs, and I don't get involved with shock collars but that might limit the possibilities of who it could be. I like to follow up on these things and ask around for opinion.

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

grandad said:


> With all the new fangled breed names around, your mums dog could be called a Boxset


The sire must have been like the Milk Tray guy, he was in, out and no-one saw who he was.....but unlike the Milk Tray guy, he got him some 

Um, a Baster would be more appropriate.....


----------



## Rottiefan

Ceearott said:


> As for the prong collar comments, what do the people against them suggest for rehabilitating a mature, truly red-zone, powerful rottie male??? A Halti???? I dont blooming think so!!! My boy has even snapped his check chain without much of an effort at all so WTF is one of these fancy collar inventions going to do???


Careful, Rotties are just like any other dog and I would never put a prong on one. In fact, Rotties are incredibly food motivated, so that's a great training tool right there. One that I have used many times.


----------



## ClaireandDaisy

I have always had big dogs. And most have had issues and needed retraining. However, since I`m am oldish woman, I don`t have to indulge in power games and posturing and therefore don`t need to use chains or spikes on my dogs. Or, indeed, cut off their air supply. I train them. 
Try using intelligence instead of chains. :001_smile:


----------



## Guest

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> I must be the luckiest person in the world when it comes to prong collars, I've never seen this reaction personally, and can only recount one report from a customer of a dog yelping when a collar was put on (by guessing the neck size and guessing the collar size.... ) yet message boards always turn up someone (or several someones) who's had this happen. I'm also a bit alarmed about "giving him a correction", did you jerk against the lead with a prong collar on? Was this at the advice of the trainer? Would you mind PM'ing me the trainers details, I'd like to make further enquiries to varify this and see what the exact circumstances were that caused the reaction.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


Do you ever use two prong collars at once?
Are you able and is there a problem if you put them on upsidedown!

Do you call yourself a trainer? because if you do personally I think that is quiet an insult to all the REAL trainers out there!


----------



## leashedForLife

DoubleTrouble said:


> Are you able [to] & is there a problem if you put them on upside-down[?]


i think U mean *inside-out* - meaning with prongs on the outside, & smooth on the inside, 
so that the prongs face *out*, away from the dog? [but i could be wrong, i am only guessing.]


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

DoubleTrouble said:


> Do you ever use two prong collars at once?
> Are you able and is there a problem if you put them on upsidedown!
> 
> Do you call yourself a trainer? because if you do personally I think that is quiet an insult to all the REAL trainers out there!


Do I? No. What would be the benefit of that? Is there a technique you know of that would require two prong collars?

Yes, you can put a prong on inside out, but why would you, that'd just be a flat collar. As far as problems, my concern would be the collar being far too big, very smooth and the dog backing out of it, do you have any problems you might like to share and a reason for turning it inside out?

No, I don't call myself a trainer, however since the only qualification I'd need to become a trainer is the ability to put an advert in the Yellow Pages and declare myself as one, would you like me to be a trainer? Uh, like the "real" trainers out there that have already done it, those "real" trainers you mean, or the other informally "qualified" *cough* "real" trainers. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me as to what a "real" trainer actually is?

regards,

Austin


----------



## leashedForLife

YouTube - How to Train Your Dog : How to Use a Prong Collar as a Basic Dog Training Tool

this young dog is not big or burly, but whipcord & athletic - like the classic farm-bred BC, a little leggier. 
he is entirely focused on *the environs* - he rarely looks at his handler at all, and he has a practiced 
*get down & dig* style of pulling toward a desired goal - he does not waste energy by leaps up 
or lunges forward, he uses traction! :lol: he'd be great for weight-pull competition, with an X-back harness. 
of course, he'd start with very light weight, apropos to his size & development.

meanwhile, *notice* that this untrained dog just doesn't know what's desired - he's not rebellious or 'bad', 
he's just as ignorant as any unschooled young animal of any species. 
*what happens when he's rewarded for LLW*, & paying some attention to where the handler is?* 
_the prong-collar becomes extraneous - he needs lessons in LLW, not pokes in his neck, IMO. _

** for anyone unfamiliar, Loose-Leash Walk /walking, etc, is commonly abbreviated LLW.


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

leashedForLife said:


> YouTube - How to Train Your Dog : How to Use a Prong Collar as a Basic Dog Training Tool
> 
> this young dog is not big or burly, but whipcord & athletic - like the classic farm-bred BC, a little leggier.
> he is entirely focused on *the environs* - he rarely looks at his handler at all, and he has a practiced
> *get down & dig* style of pulling toward a desired goal - he does not waste energy by leaps up
> or lunges forward, he uses traction! :lol: he'd be great for weight-pull competition, with an X-back harness.
> of course, he'd start with very light weight, apropos to his size & development.
> 
> meanwhile, *notice* that this untrained dog just doesn't know what's desired - he's not rebellious or 'bad',
> he's just as ignorant as any unschooled young animal of any species.
> *what happens when he's rewarded for LLW*, & paying some attention to where the handler is?*
> _the prong-collar becomes extraneous - he needs lessons in LLW, not pokes in his neck, IMO. _
> 
> ** for anyone unfamiliar, Loose-Leash Walk /walking, etc, is commonly abbreviated LLW.


Er, Terry, petal, the prong collar is simply a small part of training LLW, and when it's no longer required it's removed. Do you honestly think the prong, once used, is on for life, and only put on naughty or bad dogs because they deserve it? Maybe for headcollars, not so for prongs. See, unlike a headcollar it both manages the immediate situation, and presents oportunity for training...with a lot of praise, maybe even a treat, nice cup of tea, scone? Are you an actual trainer with actual customers and actual experience you can draw on, or have you learned everything you know from 4 minute youtube clips? Here's a vital one you might have missed, it seeks to answer a very serious question in regards to dogs in rescue centres:

YouTube - Baha men-Who let the dogs out (official)

or this one where strays with obvious behavioral issues are seen attacking handlers:

YouTube - Snoop Doggy Dog: What's My Name?

Hope this helps you with your career....

regards,

Austin


----------



## Guest

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Do I? No. What would be the benefit of that? Is there a technique you know of that would require two prong collars?
> 
> Yes, you can put a prong on inside out, but why would you, that'd just be a flat collar. As far as problems, my concern would be the collar being far too big, very smooth and the dog backing out of it, do you have any problems you might like to share and a reason for turning it inside out?
> 
> No, I don't call myself a trainer, however since the only qualification I'd need to become a trainer is the ability to put an advert in the Yellow Pages and declare myself as one, would you like me to be a trainer? Uh, like the "real" trainers out there that have already done it, those "real" trainers you mean, or the other informally "qualified" *cough* "real" trainers. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me as to what a "real" trainer actually is?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


Did I read that you would use one of these collars on a puppy?


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

Sorry, this one's for Rottiefan, cos he won't believe it unless someone else has studied it and given their professional opinion:

YouTube - Alvin And The Chipmunks - Who let the dog out!!!!

Enjoy.

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

DoubleTrouble said:


> Did I read that you would use one of these collars on a puppy?


Probably. You'll also read I eat babies, don't know who my dad is, am likely just here for your money, and have a beer on Thursdays with the antichrist.

Why do you ask?

regards,

Austin


----------



## Guest

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Probably. You'll also read I eat babies, don't know who my dad is, am likely just here for your money, and have a beer on Thursdays with the antichrist.
> 
> Why do you ask?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


Out of interest!


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

DoubleTrouble said:


> Out of interest!


No, I wouldn't use one on a puppy, or even a mature dog unless it was absolutely necessary and other methods weren't effective. How old is this puppy btw?

Would you care to answer the questions about the inside out double prong collar now?

regards,

Austin


----------



## Guest

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> No, I wouldn't use one on a puppy, or even a mature dog unless it was absolutely necessary and other methods weren't effective. How old is this puppy btw?
> 
> Would you care to answer the questions about the inside out double prong collar now?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


I asked about whether the prong collor could be put on incorrectly out of interest.

I have an e coller for around 15 years! It sits her in my cupboard, but never has nor never will be used on my dogs.

I think I have perhaps tried EVERY collar , lead and bridle (head Collar) on the market, but the one I favour is the cheapest! the plain and simple slip/gundog lead. (obviously we are only talking about walking here)


----------



## London Dogwalker

Nope. Still can't think of a situation I've ever felt the need to use a prong collar. 

I walk some properly mental dogs too, biting up and ragging the lead, thrashing around, trying to have sex with my leg, the lot, these guys are freakin crazy.  

Generally, I try to use my brain to problem solve given training 'challenges' instead of just going to pain causing equipment. For those people who can't problem solve I guess chains, spikes and man handling is the only way they know how?! :blink: And it makes them feel important - compelling instead of working together on issues.


----------



## Guest

London Dogwalker said:


> Nope. Still can't think of a situation I've ever felt the need to use a prong collar.
> 
> I walk some properly mental dogs too, biting up and ragging the lead, thrashing around, trying to have sex with my leg, the lot, these guys are freakin crazy.
> 
> Generally, I try to use my brain to problem solve given training 'challenges' instead of just going to pain causing equipment. For those people who can't problem solve I guess chains, spikes and man handling is the only way they know how?! :blink: And it makes them feel important - compelling instead of working together on issues.


Have to totally agree with you and all you say here!

And just want to add, and I doubt I shall be that popular
But my opinion is that anyone that promotes the use of the Electric Collar or the Prong Collar on a pet forum should be banned!

DT


----------



## grandad

DoubleTrouble said:


> Have to totally agree with you and all you say here!
> 
> And just want to add, and I doubt I shall be that popular
> But my opinion is that anyone that promotes the use of the Electric Collar or the Prong Collar on a pet forum should be banned!
> 
> DT


That's not very democratic and just to be controversial and so that we have balance, people who promote R+ should be banned too.............
That would be a really good society, wouldn't it. Somebodies grandparents and great grandparents gave their lives, so that people could have free speech, in this "FREE" and "OPEN" country in which we live. Some people in this country are still losing sons, fathers, brothers and uncles, so we can continue debating all sort of issues. 
What a total and utter idiotic thing to come out with. How disrespectful.


----------



## leashedForLife

DoubleTrouble said:


> [IMO] anyone that promotes the use of the Electric Collar or the Prong Collar on a pet forum should be banned!


i'd be happy to see them no longer manufactured, :thumbup: simply because there is no demand for them - 
the market dries-up, & profitability disappears; the few people who continue to use them become a dwindling minority.

extinction is the 5th quadrant :lol: the one that merely requires enormous patience.


----------



## Guest

grandad said:


> That's not very democratic and just to be controversial and so that we have balance, people who promote R+ should be banned too.............
> That would be a really good society, wouldn't it. Somebodies grandparents and great grandparents gave their lives, so that people could have free speech, in this "FREE" and "OPEN" country in which we live. Some people in this country are still losing sons, fathers, brothers and uncles, so we can continue debating all sort of issues.
> What a total and utter idiotic thing to come out with. How disrespectful.


Read it how you like old man! they get banned from other forums!
And besides! I have a right to free speech too! you have a problem with that!
Coz if you do - stick it where the sun don't shine!


----------



## grandad

DoubleTrouble said:


> Read it how you like old man! they get banned from other forums!
> And besides! I have a right to free speech too! you have a problem with that!
> Coz if you do - stick it where the sun don't shine!


You sure do have the right to free speech, and thank God you can. Take a trip to France one day and see all the reason's why. 
But banning the debate won't make the issue go away or will make your opinion right. 
Of course, if it does get banned. these things have a tendency to go underground, people will continue to be misinformed rightly or wrongly. Much better to have an open debate and discussion and an honest exchange of views. 
These tools will always end up in the wrong hands, the more you inform people by reasonable argument the more your cause grows to have them banned from society or used by properly trained licenced professionals. 
Just simply banning them from discussion forums, surely is not the right way to go about it. I for one am still open minded. The other issue is that if you do ban them, then it'll create a black market. If thats what you want, then away you go.......

And just for the record sonny.

1, The sun always shines out of my a**e. 
2, I'm a young man


----------



## Guest

grandad said:


> You sure do have the right to free speech, and thank God you can. Take a trip to France one day and see all the reason's why.
> But banning the debate won't make the issue go away or will make your opinion right.
> Of course, if it does get banned. these things have a tendency to go underground, people will continue to be misinformed rightly or wrongly. Much better to have an open debate and discussion and an honest exchange of views.
> These tools will always end up in the wrong hands, the more you inform people by reasonable argument the more your cause grows to have them banned from society or used by properly trained licenced professionals.
> Just simply banning them from discussion forums, surely is not the right way to go about it. I for one am still open minded. The other issue is that if you do ban them, then it'll create a black market. If thats what you want, then away you go.......
> 
> And just for the record sonny.
> 
> 1, The sun always shines out of my a**e.
> 2, I'm a young man


Judging by your first repsonse to my post the sun ain't the only thing that comes outta your ar*e!

And what the hell freedom of speech has to do with my opinion is beyond me!
I think if you break outta your self preservation shell and look at what is happening you may just find that we not longer have freedom of speech anyway! or it is being stiffled at the very least!

Back to the collars!! - I have one of these contraptions! (an expensive one as it happens) when they were first introduced they were very costly, , albeit better made, and beyond the means of every tom, dick and mad harry, You don't need me to tell you that the cheap imports have made these contraptions easily affordable to the wrong kind! Having them bulled up as the solver of all problems is imo not a wise thing to do! The cheap ones are also unreliable and problematic continuoulsy malfunctioning and causing pain to the dog! WITHOUT neccesarily being missused!

BUT! that is NOT my reason for not liking them ! Im my view ANY man who resorts to using one of these is NOT a man but a bloody big sissy! Who wouldn't know how to train a dog for real if it jumped up and bit him in the face!
Not put me on ignore! because I don't like you nor your attitude!


----------



## Guest

grandad said:


> That's not very democratic and just to be controversial and so that we have balance, people who promote R+ should be banned too.............
> That would be a really good society, wouldn't it. Somebodies grandparents and great grandparents gave their lives, so that people could have free speech, in this "FREE" and "OPEN" country in which we live. Some people in this country are still losing sons, fathers, brothers and uncles, so we can continue debating all sort of issues.
> What a total and utter idiotic thing to come out with. How disrespectful.


And by the way!
I have never been know for being democratic


----------



## grandad

DoubleTrouble said:


> Judging by your first repsonse to my post the sun ain't the only thing that comes outta your ar*e!
> 
> And what the hell freedom of speech has to do with my opinion is beyond me!
> I think if you break outta your self preservation shell and look at what is happening you may just find that we not longer have freedom of speech anyway! or it is being stiffled at the very least!
> 
> Back to the collars!! - I have one of these contraptions! (an expensive one as it happens) when they were first introduced they were very costly, , albeit better made, and beyond the means of every tom, dick and mad harry, You don't need me to tell you that the cheap imports have made these contraptions easily affordable to the wrong kind! Having them bulled up as the solver of all problems is imo not a wise thing to do! The cheap ones are also unreliable and problematic continuoulsy malfunctioning and causing pain to the dog! WITHOUT neccesarily being missused!
> 
> BUT! that is NOT my reason for not liking them ! Im my view ANY man who resorts to using one of these is NOT a man but a bloody big sissy! Who wouldn't know how to train a dog for real if it jumped up and bit him in the face!
> Not put me on ignore! because I don't like you nor your attitude!


Very respectful. I wouldn't put you on ignore, I'd miss you


----------



## Guest

grandad said:


> Very respectful. I wouldn't put you on ignore, I'd miss you


I was at the back of the queue when respect were handed out too!


----------



## Guest

leashedForLife said:


> i'd be happy to see them no longer manufactured, :thumbup: simply because there is no demand for them -
> the market dries-up, & profitability disappears; the few people who continue to use them become a dwindling minority.
> 
> extinction is the 5th quadrant :lol: the one that merely requires enormous patience.


I fear there will always be a market for them! The chinese production line will guarantee that! two a penny they are now!


----------



## grandad

DoubleTrouble said:


> And by the way!
> I have never been know for being democratic


and yet you quote Churchill, without whom, we may never have been able to have this debate


----------



## Guest

grandad said:


> and yet you quote Churchill, without whom, we may never have been able to have this debate


I think you have a very strange prespective of what exactly freedom of speech is! I believe in freedom of speech more then most! But mine were NOT freedom of speech it were an opinion!
An opinion that a family pet forum should NOT be infiltrated with persons promoting electric collars!
Which part of that exactly do you not quite grasp?


----------



## grandad

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think you have a very strange prespective of what exactly freedom of speech is! I believe in freedom of speech more then most! But mine were NOT freedom of speech it were an opinion!
> An opinion that a family pet forum should NOT be infiltrated with persons promoting electric collars!
> Which part of that exactly do you not quite grasp?


So a family pet forum that has experienced users of ecollars, designers of ecollars, manufacturers of ecollars, professional trainers of ecollars, science based members of ecollars, shouldn't be allowed to educate, advise, discuss, debate, opinionise, with people on this forum. Bit of a closeted opinion isn't it? People on here promote R+ training, most of them are professional people, is that allowed or not allowed in your definition?


----------



## Twiggy

*


grandad said:



So a family pet forum that has experienced users of ecollars, designers of ecollars, manufacturers of ecollars, professional trainers of ecollars, science based members of ecollars, shouldn't be allowed to educate, advise, discuss, debate, opinionise, with people on this forum. Bit of a closeted opinion isn't it? People on here promote R+ training, most of them are professional people, is that allowed or not allowed in your definition?

Click to expand...

*Because the use of ecollars by inexperienced handlers can do a lot of damage, as you well know, whereas they can hardly do a lot of damage with a bag of titbits.

Tell me again that you haven't joined this forum for some sort of smug, sarcastic self gratification. Oh sorry I forget I'm on your ignore list.


----------



## grandad

Twiggy said:


> Because the use of ecollars by inexperienced handlers can do a lot of damage, as you well know, whereas they can hardly do a lot of damage with a bag of titbits.
> 
> Tell me again that you haven't joined this forum for some sort of smug, sarcastic self gratification. Oh sorry I forget I'm on your ignore list.


No I haven't joined for some smug, sarcastic self gratificaton. I really wanted to learn about these so called aversives. hence the questions. If this subject gets debated at committee in westminster. Do you think they'll just invite the laymen to give evidence or members of a family pet forum. They'll seek evidence from everyone who has a vested interest, pro or anti. 
If it does come up for debate. I would at least like to discuss it with my MP in an enlightened way. 
But I am getting bored now.


----------



## Guest

grandad said:


> So a family pet forum that has experienced users of ecollars, designers of ecollars, manufacturers of ecollars, professional trainers of ecollars, science based members of ecollars, shouldn't be allowed to educate, advise, discuss, debate, opinionise, with people on this forum. Bit of a closeted opinion isn't it? People on here promote R+ training, most of them are professional people, is that allowed or not allowed in your definition?


Keep talking, someday you'll say something intelligent!


----------



## grandad

DoubleTrouble said:


> Keep talking, someday you'll say something intelligent!


Yes.....pitiful.


----------



## Guest

grandad said:


> Yes.....pitiful.


Believe me, I don't want to make a monkey out of you. Why should I take all the credit?


----------



## Guest

grandad said:


> No I haven't joined for some smug, sarcastic self gratificaton. I really wanted to learn about these so called aversives. hence the questions. If this subject gets debated at committee in westminster. Do you think they'll just invite the laymen to give evidence or members of a family pet forum. They'll seek evidence from everyone who has a vested interest, pro or anti.
> If it does come up for debate. I would at least like to discuss it with my MP in an enlightened way.
> But I am getting bored now.


My very limited experiences of these devices, all from a spectator standpoint.
1) A young dog approaches me, when right beside me starts to grovel on the ground around my feet. Owner says he had been to a trainer who had used an e collar for a jumping up problem

2) A puppy of approximately 5-6 months runs to me to sat hello, owner calls and immediately the pup squeals and reacts as if I'd hit it  Owner tells me the dog has to obey 

3) A hard working Spaniel out on a shoot, Zapped every time it went on too far, screamed loudly every time. Got zapped quite a bit because it didn't seem to know what it could do to prevent it :cryin:

4) Inlaws aggressive Collie, only zapped a few times and it worked but the dog was always cowered why wearing it forever after.


----------



## Guest

Oh and the trainer and supplier of these devices in this area has been seen by me to kick his own dog for getting one pace out of the heel position


----------



## kat&molly

I am finding all this all rather worrying, nearly every thread on here seems to be E-collar this, prong collar that. I joined what I thought was a 'pet forum', there are many new members every day seeking advice-but a lot of people 'lurk' without joining, they must be reading these threads, then going out and buying things for a quick fix.
I wonder how many dogs have suffered so far


----------



## Guest

kat&molly said:


> I am finding all this all rather worrying, nearly every thread on here seems to be E-collar this, prong collar that. I joined what I thought was a 'pet forum', there are many new members every day seeking advice-but a lot of people 'lurk' without joining, they must be reading these threads, then going out and buying things for a quick fix.
> I wonder how many dogs have suffered so far


Thats just what happens!  Them that as so inclined and looking for a quick fix hamble of to ebay or amazon and buy an 'inferior' contraction for little more the the cost of a bottle of scotch!

The sooner they are banned the better! The collars and them that promote em!


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

London Dogwalker said:


> Nope. Still can't think of a situation I've ever felt the need to use a prong collar.
> 
> I walk some properly mental dogs too, biting up and ragging the lead, thrashing around, trying to have sex with my leg, the lot, these guys are freakin crazy.
> 
> Generally, I try to use my brain to problem solve given training 'challenges' instead of just going to pain causing equipment. For those people who can't problem solve I guess chains, spikes and man handling is the only way they know how?! :blink: And it makes them feel important - compelling instead of working together on issues.


Why do you assume prong collars cause pain? What exactly is your understanding of how they work?

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

leashedForLife said:


> i'd be happy to see them no longer manufactured, :thumbup: simply because there is no demand for them -
> the market dries-up, & profitability disappears; the few people who continue to use them become a dwindling minority.
> 
> extinction is the 5th quadrant :lol: the one that merely requires enormous patience.


Maybe, just maybe if dog trainers could provide solutions for all customers and all dogs there wouldn't be any need for prong collars :idea: . Since the use of the collars is increasing exponentially there must be a simple explanation? Maybe, just maybe trainers aren't delivering what their customers expect?

regards,

Austin


----------



## Guest

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Why do you assume prong collars cause pain? What exactly is your understanding of how they work?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


I am not replying to you question as many of us have discussed this ten times over! and the result will always be the same!! you will NOT find many that are for the prong collar on here! Here's an old link to keep you amused!

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/14977-prong-collars.html


----------



## Guest

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Maybe, just maybe if dog trainers could provide solutions for all customers and all dogs there wouldn't be any need for prong collars :idea: . Since the use of the collars is increasing exponentially there must be a simple explanation? Maybe, just maybe trainers aren't delivering what their customers expect?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


The reason that prong collars are increasing in number is simple! The amount of lazy trainers looking for what they consider to be a 'quick fix' is increasing also! Seriously! (no offence to staffie owners on her) look at the amount of staffies alone that that are wearing these collars!


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

DoubleTrouble said:


> Have to totally agree with you and all you say here!
> 
> And just want to add, and I doubt I shall be that popular
> But my opinion is that anyone that promotes the use of the Electric Collar or the Prong Collar on a pet forum should be banned!
> 
> DT


Why specifically those 2 collars? Surely anyone promoting the use of ANY aversive should equally be banned?

BTW, your slip lead........banned! :nono: Let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone, eh?

regards,

Austin


----------



## Guest

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Why specifically those 2 collars? Surely anyone promoting the use of ANY aversive should equally be banned?
> 
> BTW, your slip lead........banned! :nono: Let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone, eh?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


You cannot even begin to compare a Shock Collar or a prong collar with a slip lead! And where my dogs are concerned I am without sin thank ya very much!


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

DoubleTrouble said:


> You cannot even begin to compare a Shock Collar or a prong collar with a slip lead! And where my dogs are concerned I am without sin thank ya very much!


I cannot even begin to compare a shock collar to a prong collar.

Or a prong collar to a choke chain.

Or a choke chain to a slip lea.....oh, wait, I can compare a choke collar to a slip lead because they're the same thing..(although the lead is longer)!!

Since it's a known fact a prong collar is less harmful than a choke chain, ergo it's also less harmful than a slip lead. So, want to preach a little more about the evil aversive users while you do untold long term damage to your dog with your aversive choice of equipment?

Perhaps you want to think this through a little bit?

regards,

Austin


----------



## Guest

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> I cannot even begin to compare a shock collar to a prong collar.
> 
> Or a prong collar to a choke chain.
> 
> Or a choke chain to a slip lea.....oh, wait, I can compare a choke collar to a slip lead because they're the same thing..(although the lead is longer)!!
> 
> Since it's a known fact a prong collar is less harmful than a choke chain, ergo it's also less harmful than a slip lead. So, want to preach a little more about the evil aversive users while you do untold long term damage to your dog with your aversive choice of equipment?
> 
> Perhaps you want to think this through a little bit?
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


My dog will not be damaged by any type of lead as they seldom wears one! When I have no choice but to put a lead on them my choosen lead is a slip lead! so don't you preach to me either! I can only assume that you don't know how to use a slip lead correctly! Or perhaps you are one of those that don't even know how to put a choke chain on!

Now why don't you go ply your wares to someone who may be interested in them! because very much doubt you will find any takers here!
nighty nite


----------



## Guest

Almost forgot luvmydogsworldwide!

I understand that prong/pinch collars were withdrawn from the police force and prisons over two years ago, Can you confirm if this is correct pleae, and if it is could you tell us the reason why?

The only reason I ask is out of interest! nothing more!


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

DoubleTrouble said:


> Almost forgot luvmydogsworldwide!
> 
> I understand that prong/pinch collars were withdrawn from the police force and prisons over two years ago, Can you confirm if this is correct pleae, and if it is could you tell us the reason why?
> 
> The only reason I ask is out of interest! nothing more!


No, they were withdrawn over 10 years ago after an incident with Essex police. Dogs were being subjected to some unusual training methods including hanging, windmilling, and severe physical domination. None of the incidents noted involved a prong collar at all. The Dogs Trust, who provided the police with a fair number of dogs, refused to supply the police anymore and also brought action against several officers for cruelty. The compromise reached was the police would only use flat buckle collars and the Dogs Trust would supply dogs again...... this extended to other police forces, even though reports exist of dogs having their necks broken while training in flat buckle collars.

Not as sensational as you were hoping for, but there you go, what a let down eh? There's no 'S' in it, it's LuvMyDog, no 'S', and my name is right below, you're welcome to use it.....

regards,

Austin


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

DoubleTrouble said:


> My dog will not be damaged by any type of lead as they seldom wears one! When I have no choice but to put a lead on them my choosen lead is a slip lead! so don't you preach to me either! I can only assume that you don't know how to use a slip lead correctly! Or perhaps you are one of those that don't even know how to put a choke chain on!
> 
> Now why don't you go ply your wares to someone who may be interested in them! because very much doubt you will find any takers here!
> nighty nite


How to fit a slip lead or choke chain....part connected to your hand, or the leash ring goes over the top.....

Wow, not bad for a first try. Did you assume wrong?

Does this slip lead tighten and put pressure on the neck? If it does, I have some bad news for you........

What wares specifically? I've just checked the emails and it looks like a fair variety is being sold, so far the UK is lagging slightly behind the rest of the world, but it is the end of the month and payday in daylight hours somewhere, going to be a busy day wrapping and packing Tuesday. We also sell slip leads and choke chains BTW, we don't like to leave anyone out if we can help it, except for headcollar and e-collar users, don't get involved with either of those products for good reasons.

regards,

Austin


----------



## leashedForLife

http://www.gansettpaws.com/images/e...&ty=202&page=71&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:733


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

leashedForLife said:


> http://www.gansettpaws.com/images/e...&ty=202&page=71&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:733


Dead link. Never mind though, I know what a martingale is and looks like.

regards,

Austin


----------



## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> they were withdrawn over 10 years ago after an incident with Essex police. Dogs were being subjected to some unusual training methods including hanging, windmilling, and severe physical domination. None of the incidents noted involved a prong collar at all. The Dogs Trust, who provided the police with a fair number of dogs, refused to supply the police anymore and also brought action against several officers for cruelty. The compromise reached was the police would only use flat buckle collars and the Dogs Trust would supply dogs again......


Quite right to on Dogs Trust, and nice to see you admit at last that people do use "checks" incorrectly. Again flat collars may be used incorrectly, so the real issue is the culture of forceful dog handling, which Prongs do nothing to prevent, but the better alternatives do address.


----------



## SleepyBones

> So, want to preach a little more about the evil aversive users while you do untold long term damage to your dog with your aversive choice of equipment


Thats a very strange comment coming from someone who sells & promotes the harshest physical aversive known, i.e. the haltie the discomfort and pain from which the dog cannot withdraw, still they are cheap so I suppose they sell in plenty, more proffit eh!

*Below - Haltie head cages, front line users experiences and science study*

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/17609-what-do-you-think-halties.html

Mini Post 2
i personaly won't use them, they only seem to work when they are on the dog from my expiriance and don't cure the problem. i know of someone who left an old halti on a dog while it was tied up and it managed to get the nose bit around its neck and half strangled its self

Jackson post 3
I am reluctantly using one on Connie occasionally, although I am not proud to admit it!
I wouldn't have resorted to it in any other circumstances and she absolutely hates it

Widgetdog35 Post4
alot of dog have halties on and in the wrong hands they are evil and couse whiplash, eye injury, friction burns, just to name a few

Shane Post7
To be honest, I've yet to meet a dog that is totally relaxed wearing one, they always seem to try and get them off or pull against them and spin round.

Dottycon Post 14
Persevered with Halti after some previous posts on here as Archie really hated it
It does work but I don't like how he looks so miserable with it on

Bengalpudle Post 15
it makes my blood boil when I see that all dog owner are using them wrong
Where I live 3 out of 5 dogs which you see are having a haltie and NON of the owner are able to use them as they should do

Jeanie Post16
my black damaged his nose he had to go to vet and i spent two weeks every day putting it on with treats but he hated it and would roll all over the floor

*Science

Haltie research abstract*

Research has shown there is no evidence to support the notion dogs reactions to different halter head collars are different, all dogs in the pilot study show severe stress reactions to all the head collars.
Study findings below:

"The responses of 12 dogs to four different head collars were compared in a crossover design over four 10 min sessions each spaced 2 weeks apart.

Group 1
included pawing, pawing nose, biting/pawing leash, opening mouth, rubbing face, and shaking head.

Group 2 
included rearing up, balking, rushing forward, and rolling on ground. 
No statistical difference was observed between dogs' reactions to the head collar types.
Based on this study, there does not appear to be an increased acceptance of one head collar type over another.
There were no long term follow ups so long term consequences are unknown."

Head collars used - Gentle Leader, Haltie, Snoop Loop & Response.

Ref: 
Comparison of dogs' reactions to four different head collars, Applied Animal Behaviour Science Volume 79, Issue 1, 20 September 2002, Pages 53-61
L. I. Haug, B. V. Beavera and M. T. Longneckerb

.


----------



## leashedForLife

RobD-BCactive said:


> ...flat collars may be used incorrectly, so the real issue is the culture of forceful dog handling,
> which Prongs do nothing to prevent, but the better alternatives do address.


yes - hanging, helicoptering, etc, are also seen in USA cop-k9 HANDLING - which i refuse to call 'training'.  
thankfully, *some k9-departments are enlightened, & use pos-R training to build their k9-partners' skills - *
good on em, & thank DoG for Steve White, his graduates, & other modern, humane k9-cop instructors. :thumbup:

many individuals in the military & bite-sports [Mondio, Schutz, Ring-sport] have also failed to move with the times, 
& continue old-fashioned yank-n-yell with the added glitz of 1950s shock-collars packaged in 1990s electronics; 
it's the same process, with a more sophisticated control package & more complex circuitry.

there is, however, a growing segment in the bite-sports who are using pos-R motivational training, not only in early 
teaching, but clear thru the proofing stage & into competition.

and the USA-military is *slowly* changing their 1940s mind-set, moving from yank-n-yell to TEACH, changing 
their equipment & which is much more difficult, their attitudes toward the dogs.


----------



## SleepyBones

> *DoubleTrouble*You cannot even begin to compare a Shock Collar or a prong collar with a slip lead!


"Slip lead" is just a choke lead, they use the word slip lead to make it sound better, if a slip lead was/is used in what people erroneously call "reward" training then yes it can be compared scientificaly.

Yes you can compare e-collars, prong collars and what is incorrectly called "reward' training, it is negative punishment training 'reward' is just a selling word replacing 'negative punishment'. If someone is using a slip lead and negative punishment training (erroneously called "reward" training") then that is a comparison.

By the way, "Shock Collars" fell into obsolescence 11 years ago and were completely obsolescent by 2002, if you want to read about what they were so you don't sound silly just click history of e-collars at the link below.
UK Dog Training Scams - EDUCATIONAL E-COLLAR DOG

*Robust Science Study 2009.*

Comparison Positive Training Methods ( reality = negative punishment training)
vs e-collar & prong collar training When Dogs Are In Drive

Learning Effects

Ecollar 92.9% success

prong collar 76.2% success

positive training (negative punishments training) 7.1% success and classed by the research team as 'ineffective',

Stress effects
Positive training (negative punishment methods) showed significantly higher stress levels than the others as well as fear related tail lowering.

Free download, short, 32 page, version.
Comparison of stress and learning effects of three different training methods in dogs.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download

Full Studyappx $31:00
Journal of Veterinary Behaviour: Clinical Applications and Research
Volume 4, Issue 6, Page 252 (November 2009)
Comparison of stress and learning effects of 3 different training methods in dogs. Hanover Veterinary University.
E. Schalke, S. Ott, Y. Salgirli, I. Böhm, H. Hackbarth

.


----------



## leashedForLife

"A clicker OTCh [Obedience-Trial Championship, and AKC title] was earned this weekend:
'Team Raika' (OTCh *Sprite's Eureka* UDX, TD, SchH-II & her handler Denise Fenzi) completed the requirements 
this weekend [Sat & Sunday March 26 & 27th], & Denise reports that Raika's training has used positive-reinforcement 
from start to finish." :thumbup: Hurrah!


----------



## RobD-BCactive

SleepyBones said:


> what is incorrectly called "reward' training, it is negative punishment training 'reward' is just a selling word replacing 'negative punishment'


Hey Sleepy!! It's May, not April the First!

You should ask yourself if it's "negative punishment" and not reward, why our dogs are so damn keen to work for us! 

If the method is "ineffective", then all the people I meet must be absolutely amazing Dog Trainers!


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## Guest

SleepyBones said:


> "Slip lead" is just a choke lead, they use the word slip lead to make it sound better, if a slip lead was/is used in what people erroneously call "reward" training then yes it can be compared scientificaly.
> 
> Yes you can compare e-collars, prong collars and what is incorrectly called "reward' training, it is negative punishment training 'reward' is just a selling word replacing 'negative punishment'. If someone is using a slip lead and negative punishment training (erroneously called reward training) then that is a comparison.
> 
> By the way, "Shock Collars" fell into obsolescence 11 years ago and were completely obsolescent by 2002, if you want to read about what they were so you dont sound silly just click history of e-collars at the link below.
> UK Dog Training Scams - EDUCATIONAL E-COLLAR DOG
> 
> *Robust Science Study 2009.*
> 
> Comparison Positive Training Methods ( reality = negative punishment training)
> vs e-collar & prong collar training When Dogs Are In Drive
> 
> Learning Effects
> 
> Ecollar 92.9% success
> 
> prong collar 76.2% success
> 
> positive training (negative punishments training) 7.1% success and classed by the research team as ineffective,
> 
> Stress effects
> Positive training (negative punishment methods) showed significantly higher stress levels than the others as well as fear related tail lowering.
> 
> Free download, short, 32 page, version.
> Comparison of stress and learning effects of three different training methods in dogs.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download
> 
> Full Studyappx $31:00
> Journal of Veterinary Behaviour: Clinical Applications and Research
> Volume 4, Issue 6, Page 252 (November 2009)
> Comparison of stress and learning effects of 3 different training methods in dogs. Hanover Veterinary University.
> E. Schalke, S. Ott, Y. Salgirli, I. Böhm, H. Hackbarth
> 
> .


You can fool some of the people some of the time!
Most of the people most of the time!
BUT you will NEVER fool all of the people all of the time!
LMFAO


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## SleepyBones

> If the method is "ineffective", then all the people I meet must be absolutely amazing Dog Trainers!


Based on your profile photo you have a BC, they are the most biddable & naturaly obedient dogs on the planet, all you need to do is show them what you want and they're jumping over themselves to do it. BC's don't win all the agility & KC OB tests cause the owners of BC's are better trainers than all other dog breed trainers, they win cause they are genticaly programmed to be obedient.

Kids can train them no problem at all and NO formal OB lessons needed.
YouTube - The 'Positive' 'Modern' Training, Commercial Con Trick Exposed, Historical Images Blows The Myth
.


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## Guest

SleepyBones said:


> Based on your profile photo you have a BC, they are the most biddable & naturaly obedient dogs on the planet, all you need to do is show them what you want and they're jumping over themselves to do it. BC's don't win all the agility & KC OB tests cause the owners of BC's are better trainers than all other dog breed trainers, they win cause they are genticaly programmed to be obedient.
> 
> Kids can train them no problem at all and NO formal OB lessons needed.
> YouTube - The 'Positive' 'Modern' Training, Commercial Con Trick Exposed, Historical Images Blows The Myth
> .


Whatabout weimaraners then! are they easy?
Please share! how would you go about training these!
Which methods would you use?


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## SleepyBones

> You can fool some of the people some of the time!


You've lost me, I put a link to The History Of E-Collars and a verifiable, *robust,* Hanover Veterinary University scientific study ref, so can you explain you're....errr, thinking behind that comment?

.


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## Guest

SleepyBones said:


> You've lost me, I put a link to The History Of E-Collars and a verifiable, *robust,* Hanover Veterinary University scientific study ref, so can you explain you're....errr, thinking behind that comment?
> 
> .


Erm! your claim that the shock collar returns a 92.9% success rate- me finks is somewhat exaggerated!
HENCE! you can fool some of the people some of the time


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## RobD-BCactive

leashedForLife said:


> yes - hanging, helicoptering, etc, are also seen in USA cop-k9 HANDLING - which i refuse to call 'training'.
> thankfully, *some k9-departments are enlightened, & use pos-R training to build their k9-partners' skills - *
> good on em, & thank DoG for Steve White, his graduates, & other modern, humane k9-cop instructors. :thumbup:
> ...
> and the USA-military is *slowly* changing their 1940s mind-set, moving from yank-n-yell to TEACH, changing
> their equipment & which is much more difficult, their attitudes toward the dogs.


The Wonder Dogs programme showed NYPD dogs being trained, and what they showed was clearly rewards based, with trainers making statements like "every dog in his mind must never think he failed", emphasising confidence, and many other statements that would have made nice quotes for an R+ thread like "99.9% of time if a dog makes a mistake it's due to handler error". Quite sweet seeing tough cops playing with tennis balls and coaxing their "doggies" just like pets 

Of course they train their dogs to ignore aversives, likes gun flashes with real bullets whizzing by. The dogs get used to it... sounds typical of aversives.

The Border Patrol, seemed less "with it" and have a more macho handler culture. Lots of pressure on handler to "perform" from the get go, and they focussed on one in intake who was pretty rough on leash work, and surprise surprise, his dog walked less well and was more distracted struggling with learning tasks. Got through in end, and both were much calmer.

Bearing in mind past reported incidents which are *totally unacceptable to a significant proportion of voting public in UK and the kind of ppl who subsidise canine service programmes*, I don't know how trustworthy such documentaries are as a true reflection of the full programmes.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> Quite right to on Dogs Trust, and nice to see you admit at last that people do use "checks" incorrectly. Again flat collars may be used incorrectly, so the real issue is the culture of forceful dog handling, which Prongs do nothing to prevent, but the better alternatives do address.


WTF are you on about? The dogs trust recommend a flat buckle collar because it's the most common, most basic, and least likely to draw accusations about product affiliation. In addition, it's the least objectionable in case something goes wrong and someone injurs a dog and they get sued. Don't dare twist my words again, I didn't admit a damned thing, especially not to you. FYI, that includes headcollars and harnesses. Did you miss out the bit where I stated "NONE OF THE INCIDENTS NOTED INVOLVED A PRONG COLLAR"? Rob, flower, learn to read, then stop and think, then if you must reply keep it relevant to the topic at hand.

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> The Wonder Dogs programme showed NYPD dogs being trained, and what they showed was clearly rewards based, with trainers making statements like "every dog in his mind must never think he failed.......


John Barrowman's "Animals at Work" last summer showed NYFD search and rescue dogs wearing PRONG COLLARS, and the trainers stated their dogs were "well motivated and happy to work". I know they use them too from first hand experience, have the invoices .....

regards,

Austin


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## RobD-BCactive

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> WTF are you on about?
> ...
> Don't dare twist my words again, I didn't admit a damned thing, especially not to you


Anyone who's followed all of your argument in this thread, will know exactly what part you were in denial over, it drew quite a few comments.

Understand one thing, no amount of ranting or abuse from you, affects me, it reveals your personality.

Austin, there's not many people here who would trust you to walk their dog unsupervised.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

RobD-BCactive said:


> Anyone who's followed all of your argument in this thread, will know exactly what part you were in denial over, it drew quite a few comments.
> 
> Understand one thing, no amount of ranting or abuse from you, affects me, it reveals your personality.
> 
> Austin, there's not many people here who would trust you to walk their dog unsupervised.


I'm sure they can speak for themselves Rob, I'm absolutely convinced they don't need an obvious rank amature like you with no clue apart from selective Youtube clips to try and represent them.

regards,

Austin


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## Guest

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> I'm sure they can speak for themselves Rob, I'm absolutely convinced they don't need an obvious rank amature like you with no clue apart from selective Youtube clips to try and represent them.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Austin


Well I would have to agree with RobD - I wouldn't trust you to pick up after my dog let alone walk it! with an attitude like yours doubt anyone would want you within arms length of their dog!


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## noushka05

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well I would have to agree with RobD - I wouldn't trust you to pick up after my dog let alone walk it! with an attitude like yours doubt anyone would want you within arms length of their dog!


hear hear!


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well I would have to agree with RobD - I wouldn't trust you to pick up after my dog let alone walk it! with an attitude like yours doubt anyone would want you within arms length of their dog!


How have you come to that conclusion? For someone who's always asked "out of interest" with leading questions designed to draw a damning answer without anything but an honest and unbaised reply I can't help but wonder at your alterior motive....out of interest.

regards,

Austin


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide

noushka05 said:


> hear hear!


Don't worry, you're safe, sweet dreams petal.

regards,

Austin


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## Irish Setter Gal

Now now boys - and breathe


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## we love bsh's

nearly missed this...


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## RobD-BCactive

Funnily enough, someone's away and asked me to walk their dog, with mine and just asked me to treat theirs the same as our own 

If you enjoy Austin this thread is funny to http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/162590-zmy-dog-fine-lead-until-i-get-park.html#post2429502 just mind the sharp barb wire!


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## keirk

Can someone please close this silly thread now.


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