# Help please



## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

The last few days Ive thought Lotty was drinking a lot. a shallow bowl full in the morning and another at night. I brought her a new bottle as I thought maybe she wasnt drinking all that water. The first night and day 24 hours she drank 300ml which I thought is a lot for such a small bunny. Suspecting kidney failure I thought I would just keep a closer eye on her over the weekend. 

Last night she was fine but this morning shes off colour not her usual food orientated self although she has a had a few bits from the garden. Shes drank very little over night. Her rear is soaking wet in smelly wee.

I am taking her to the vets. But they arnt very good vets and just want some advice as to what she needs?


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

I've got an appointment just after 11, thankfully I'm working at home today.

I've just seen this 
VetCarePlus Urinary Tract Health Formula | Foods | The Hay Experts

Is there anything else that will help her? I think pain meds would be a start and some recovery food


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## jaxb05 (Apr 12, 2009)

Emzy, I have no suggestions but hope the vet appointment goes well xx


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

If possible take a wee sample with you (easier said than done) so the vet can do a dip stick test on it. I had to do this with George and to get it I took the litter tray away and kept him in the kitchen (lino floor) so when he done a wee on the floor I could syringe it up (bleach and dry your chosen area first to make sure the wee won't be contaminated too much by other proteins), vet suggested this.

When George had the bladder issues (he wasn't drinking a lot though) the vet done an ultrasound on him to check his bladder for sludge and signs of anything going on. 

If they suspect an infection they should give you baytril (or other antibiotic) and metacam in case of pain. 

If they do suspect its to do with kidney function they should do a blood test to confirm this or rule it out (blood tests are expensive so bear that in mind as well, George cost me £80 for each blood test alone). 

If she's getting a very wet bum and it carries on whilst she recovers you can ask the vet to shave her so you can keep her clean and stop urine scolding. 

As she is drinking more than usual the vet should sway more towards kidney's than bladder infection although neither can be ruled out straight away and you'll likely be given the antibiotics as a minimum.


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

What does her wee look like? If its very thick looking and dark it could be sludge, this can also be the case if her wee is very pale compared to normal and almost like water coming out of her. If sludge is the case you should look at a low calcium diet at least for a while till she's better, cut out any dark green veg as that is high in calcium.

Does she seem to be straining to wee?


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks so much for you help Kammie

I did think she looks like she was straining too wee earlier she did a funny half stretch. 

He rear is covered in standard yellow pee but its quite smelly. Luckily shes only recently been spayed so her fur is all quite short even her tail. She has so much pee on her I'm hoping they can take a sample from her if its just a paper test. I cleaned her out a few hours ago and shes not drank/peed since. 

I have syringed her 6mls of apple and banana baby food which she happily ate I dont want to give her too much as she has been fat and I did wonder about diabetes, she hasnt touched her pellets or hay 

If it is kidney failure I think there is very little that can be done from the reading I did during the week? would it need diagnosing with a blood test surly it cant be anything else if shes drinking a lot and her general body condition is poor?


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks jax it is nice just knowing your there!


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

oh and I have been feeding her spring greens and parsley so I will stop this now


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

The vet will hopefully give her a top to tail check -bunnies can drink excessively for all sorts of reasons, including pain/teeth problems. The fact that she is wet bottomed tho sugggests something urinary. 

Good luck.

If you're not happy with their diagnosis, never be frightened to get a second opinion.


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

emzybabe said:


> Thanks so much for you help Kammie
> 
> I did think she looks like she was straining too wee earlier she did a funny half stretch.
> 
> ...


Ideally yeah a blood test would be needed to confirm its the kidney's.

Remember with George his body condition got so bad I thought I'd lose him and we had suspected his kidney's at first. Look at everything he's been through recently and it all started as an abscess floating around in his abdomen putting pressure on his bladder. That led to all sorts of problems even considering the possibility of an immunity problem. Its taken a long time but he's now on the mend although not out of the woods yet its been a long hard battle.

Diabetes is very rare in rabbits but that can cause increased drinking, they can test that with a simple spot of blood in the same way we get tested so you'd be able to get an answer to that straight away.

Don't go there thinking its definately the kidneys without ruling everything else out first. If they aren't the best vets to begin with I wouldn't say what you think the problem is but just suggest what you want her tested for if it doesn't get mentioned by the vet. Remember the vet should be telling you the suspected problem not you telling them. Some vets that aren't good with rabbits rely a lot on what owners tell them and can end up misdiagnosing because the owner says it has to be one thing so they don't bother looking for other possibilities.


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks Kammie, Just read your post after being at the vets. 

She was a very nice vet quite young but nice. 

Ive been given 0.35ml septrin to give her twice a day and 0.2ml metcam once a day. Shes only weighing 1.1kg at the min her spine is very prominent. 

Were going to treat for an infection and if she gets worse or is no better at the end of a 10 day course I'll take her back for bloods. 

Lottys took both her meds quiet happily and then 10mls of recovery food lapped them all up which is a good sign. 

Shes also had a bum wash and dry poor thing.

I've put her back in the garage but its freezing out there so shes got a snuggle safe.


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

unbelievably she has actually found the snuggle safe and is sat on top of it clever girl! She must be cold though


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

emzybabe said:


> Thanks Kammie, Just read your post after being at the vets.
> 
> She was a very nice vet quite young but nice.
> 
> ...


Septrin is very good, its the last one we tried with George and worked wonders. When my vet gave it to us he said we should start seeing an improvement within a couple of days even the tiniest improvement is a good sign. However if she seems worse or no different after the weekend I'd still take her back.

Whats her healthy weight? George went down to 1.75kg at his worst point but is now back up to his healthy weight of 2.4kg. Was such a huge loss but with lots of high calorie foods and doubling his pellets we got the weight back up fairly quickly.


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

I dont know what her heathy weight Ive only had her 2 weeks this Sunday, I've been meaning to weigh her I put her on the scales after weighing my George and the battery had died 

Fingers crossed it works I'm surprised they didnt just give me batril 

What food will be good for her that arnt high in calcium or sugars?

I brought her some very expensive westerns timothy hay and a new williow ball from the pet shop round the corner from the vets


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Just thought I would add she was only spayed about 6 weeks ago could it be post op related?


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Most fruits are low in calcium, banana, apples, grapes etc. Theres not much in the way of veg but sprouts, cauliflower and carrots are low in calcium. As a rule avoid the dark green veg like kale, brocolli, spinach etc. Timothy hay is high in calcium, if she's not fussy about what type of hay she has try giving boring old meadow hay for a while.

Septrin works better than baytril in some cases, its actually a kids antibiotic and smells like banana . For George baytril done nothing to help him but septrin showed improvements really quickly. 

If she was spayed 6 weeks ago and the problem has only just started I'd say its unlikely to be related.

Hope she's feeling better soon, keep us updated.


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Shes happily eaten 12mls of recovery food at 2pm and another 20mls +6mls pear baby food just now. 

Shes covered in smelly wee again  

but has done 4 whole poos there a bit odd looking but thats to be expected

I'm going to go out and buy some news paper and some fleece blankets for her - Ive just throw a load of old holy blankets out. Will get some cauliflower etc too

Think I'm going to keep her in the bathroom over night with the window open  its 7C outside


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

ok so I've just check her and got another 6mls of recovery and 2mls of water and shes helped herself to a little celery top and baby food.

I checked her bum and she started pooing this lot










all the clear wet bits on the kitchen roll is mucus.

Does this mean shes got a gut infection? Miffy never had mucus when she went off her food


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Ive just given her some more recovery laced with baby food and she's happily eaten quite a bit of veg by herself. the pellets and hay look untouched. Her stomach is making a lot of noise I take it any gut movement is good? she's done about 10 soft pellet poos and had a tiny wee while was with her this was quite thick and white.

I'm gonna take her back to the vets for gut stimulants and fluids if there's no improvement in the morning


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2012)

I would give your vet a call to ask about Coccidiosis, the mucus hinted that to me so personally I would treat her for that as well so that you cover all bases.

Was she from a rescue? Sorry I can't remember


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Hi Bernie yes she was a rescue, we're going back to vets at 2. Her body condition has been pretty poor since I got her ill let the rescue know if it is coccidiosis as she was kept as a group of 5. So glad I've been quarenteening her from George


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Vet said the 10 day course of septrin will kill off the coccidiosis?! This vet was very doubtful she would make a full recovery and thought her liver was enlarged but kidneys ok.  feel so useless


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

shes tucking in to some [email protected] aromatic crunchies  but not keen on her pellets I hope the crunchies dont upset her tum.

Can I buy some of those barley rings from you please Bernie?


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Just had a really good feed managed to get the best part of 25ml in her  then she tucked into her hay her bums also quite dry and not stained since I washed it yesterday afternoon but she's defiantly been weeing too


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Hope the antibiotics are doing their stuff - and hope you manage to get some kip too!!


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2012)

Glad to hear she is taking her feeds well 



emzybabe said:


> shes tucking in to some [email protected] aromatic crunchies  but not keen on her pellets I hope the crunchies dont upset her tum.
> 
> Can I buy some of those barley rings from you please Bernie?


How much would you like?


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

How many rings max do you think I can give her daily to help her fatten? Think I'd need a 2 month supply at least


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2012)

emzybabe said:


> How many rings max do you think I can give her daily to help her fatten? Think I'd need a 2 month supply at least


I wouldn't feed any more than 5-6 a day due to barley being fattening around the organs.


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks Berne can you pm me your PayPal details and how much including postage? 

Ive been doing some reading and feel quite confused - if she has heptic coccidiosis - her livers apparently large and she's looking thin on her back which are symptoms according to an article I read. If/when she recovers will I be able to bond her with Geroge or is she going to have relapses and be contiguous for life?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2012)

emzybabe said:


> Thanks Berne can you pm me your PayPal details and how much including postage?
> 
> Ive been doing some reading and feel quite confused - if she has heptic coccidiosis - her livers apparently large and she's looking thin on her back which are symptoms according to an article I read. If/when she recovers will I be able to bond her with Geroge or is she going to have relapses and be contiguous for life?


Once she is recovered you will be able to bond her still, she will be susceptible to cocci but with a good diet and great hygiene there is no reason why she would suffer a relapse. I know many rabbits that have never gone on to have another relapse 

I'll pm you now


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

B3rnie said:


> Once she is recovered you will be able to bond her still, she will be susceptible to cocci but with a good diet and great hygiene there is no reason why she would suffer a relapse. I know many rabbits that have never gone on to have another relapse


Thank you so much for that what a relief fingers crossed she makes a full recovery!

Since lunch time shes eaten 3 fiber first sticks there like 6 inch long pellets  and some apple and crunchies might syringe her a little recovery with baby food when I give her tonight's septrin just to make sure she eats with the meds but hopefully she's mending 

It's a real shame she's indoors now I won't be able to bond til spring


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## Louiseandfriends (Aug 21, 2011)

emzybabe said:


> Since lunch time shes eaten 3 fiber first sticks *there* like 6 inch long pellets  (


They're - as in they are. :glare:
Sorry- couldn't help myself. :

I really hope she does make a full recovery. Stay strong. xx


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Louiseandfriends said:


> They're - as in they are. :glare:
> Sorry- couldn't help myself. :
> 
> I really hope she does make a full recovery. Stay strong. xx


Lol sorry using my phone and it's very tedious to put the 's in when it doesn't do it automatically


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

We've had anothe good feed 45ml of quite watery warm critical care. She seems to prefer the oxbow to the science selective and she likes it warm. 

Her tummys still making a lot of noise and she looks uncomfortable and sits on top of the snugglesafe when its warm. should I try her or infacol? Does anyone know the dose for rabbits?


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Shes happily eating everything now which is such a relief 

I've had to reduce her pellets despite wanting her to gain wait to stop any runny poos

Shes drunk 400mls of water in the last 24 hours  and has a soaking wet bum

I think there must be something quite long term wrong with her :crying:


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2012)

I'm sorry she isn't recovering as quickly as we would like 

I'm surprised the rescue rehomed an obviously poorly bunny  Do they know the situation?


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Hi Bernie 

I have been updating them regualy. She was seen by 2 different vet practices with them 1 for the spay and 1 for the mixi. 
I did ask about the water bottle there as it was more empty than all the others and they just said it was leaking.

she's drank 500ml in 22 hours today  she seems very bright again 

as you can imagine my bathroom was getti soaked and as I want to make sure she's well quarantined from George I have now had to put her in an indoor cage 

I'm really worried if she doesn't recover at some point I may have to think about putting her to sleep or giving her back. 

I'm worried he's not going to gain weight withough putting more strain on her kidneys or liver and will eventually turn again.

I'm often out for 12 hours in the days and her bedding is getting soaked in that time living in a bathroom is not a quality life


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

This is so sad, as you are working so hard with her. It is good that she seems perky and wants to eat now, but sad that she is still uncomfortable and incontinent. 

It won't solve her problems, but to make her more comfortable, have you considered trying vet bed?

We once had a very poorly incontinent bunny come through after being at death's door, but her incontinence was caused by a back injury. We used puppy pads everywhere, but they are only useful if you can watch, in case bun chews them.

It sounds like bun was already poorly when you got her, which seems harsh. I hope the rescue are helping with the bills.


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Hi Summer thank you I have got her on vet bed an fleeces with news paper under and she gets a snugglesafe after a wash and paper pellets in her litter tray. but still everything gets very wet. 

I will see how she goes this weekend as I'll be able to keep a closer eye on her.

I'm struggling to find a good rabbit vet and the RU forum have suggested we go to Richard Saunders in Bristol


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

It's good to get remmendations for a vet specifically experienced in bunny care - ideally exotic trained - and they are certainly few and far between sadly. 

I hope get some answers and help soon.


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

unfortunately Richard doesn't have any appointments until the 3rd Dec and we cant wait that long. 

I am just searching the internet again now to find a good bunny vet


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

ok so Lotty finished her antibiotics and pain meds on Sunday.

Since then her water intake has gradually reduced to an almost normal amount. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or because shes now uncomfortable - shes eating normally and guts are still making loud noises.

anyway here's a fresh wee for you all to look at










I would really appreciate your your thoughts, normal or not? She has had very little greens/calcium for the last 2 weeks.

I will be taking her in for more tests regardless I'm just struggling to find a good vet.

Had a mahoosive hay experts order come today lots of treats for her.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2012)

That is normal to a certain extent, however I wouldn't expect to see wee that cloudy when you have been careful not to feed calcium.

Personally I would get bloods run to check her kidney and liver functions.


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks Berine, it has dried clear no white residue. 

Although I havent been feeding her calcium high veg the pellets and recovery food do have calcium in. Just got a box of urinary tract food in for her so that should help


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Thank you everyone for your advice and support to date. Just wanted to give you an update and ask for some more advice.

Little Lottie is doing quite well now shes eating very well, has put on some weight already, is drinking normal amounts of water and has a dry bum. things are looking up (touches wood)

I spoke with several vets regarding blood tests but as she appears to be improving I have put it off not wanting upset her by taking her for a long car journey, should anything change we will go straight to the vets. 

The only thing I am now concerned about is is that she has lost quite a bit of fur despite my daily washing and drying while she was wetting herself. She has been dry for a good week now and is continuing to loose fur on her rear but most alarmingly she is now loosing fur on her hocks. The more vet salve I apply the more she licks these areas and the next day they look even more bear. Is the hair shes loosing dead hair from the urine or hair that is continuing to die for some other reason? I have never experience this before. How long will it take to start showing signs of growing back? shes indoors now so shes plenty warm enough but I imagine this will effect the rate of hair growth too.


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Not sure really. The original loss is likely to be to do with her original problem and urine scald. Wonder if she is now over grooming it off with the cream.

Doe she have sore hocks, or are they just bare? If they are not too bad, rather than red and inflamed, you could try putting down some very soft surfaces, rather than use cream. 

For a paralysed bun, we used very soft dog cushions, as they created less friction when he tried to move. This helped immensely, and might work for you now she is dry. We did get some comments though when we went around the shop feeling cushions with our faces until we found some really soft ones!! The fur on his tummy began to regrow after some weeks. We dressed his sore hocks to protect them (cream/dressing, a finger from a glove and micropore to hold it in place).


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

George is still losing fur around his bum from here he had the urine problems. The fur in that area is a different colour to normal so I can see where he's losing it from. It seems to be growing back quite fast though in the places that had already shed and its growing as his normal colour. I imagine it will be due to the urine staining that its moulting as a natural way to clean the fur.

Although where he was shaved for the ultrasound/abscess removal on his tummy and the blood test on his leg the fur is taking ages to grow back. Its growing back in a funny way though, I mentioned it to the vet at his last check and he explained that the way its growing back is the more exposed parts regrow first to keep warm and then the more hidden parts. So on George his leg fur is almost grown back fully but on his belly he has a patch in the middle thats regrown but around the edges where he would tuck his feet in when resting is still pretty bare. He's also inside and I don't worry too much about his hocks as he's on carpet, so far I've not had to put anything on him and that fur regrew really fast. 

Then theres Rosie who I had shaved in the summer due to urine when she was pre medicine arthritis and too stiff to clean herself or position properly to wee. Her fur started regrowing within days I think because she's outside. 

So from my experience temperature has a lot to do with how fast the fur grows back.


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks guys thats really helpful.

She hasnt grown back the fur on her tummy where she was spayed at the rescue centre at least 8 weeks ago its just like velvet still. I'm not sure if slow hair growth will be a sign of an underlying problem but will keep an eye on it. As long as shes continuing to gain weight I assume shes getting enough nutrients from her food to grow hair. 

Summer by soft do you mean soft to the touch/fabric choice or soft pressure wise like a squidgy cushion. 

Her hocks dont look sore just bare and I dont want them to get worse  I dont want to put a nice thick layer of soft hay down because it will stick to any cream/ointments. I'm worried about her skin tearing so I'm putting cream on the bear bits every other day (so shes not too sticky) and her hocks daily.


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

emzybabe said:


> Thanks guys thats really helpful.
> 
> She hasnt grown back the fur on her tummy where she was spayed at the rescue centre at least 8 weeks ago its just like velvet still. I'm not sure if slow hair growth will be a sign of an underlying problem but will keep an eye on it. As long as shes continuing to gain weight I assume shes getting enough nutrients from her food to grow hair.
> 
> ...


George had the abscess removed 28th August and the fur has still not fully regrown on his tummy. I wouldn't worry too much about the fur growth, it does tke a while with some of them.


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

Just had a look at this booty page.

Treating Sore Hocks in Your Companion Rabbit

I have some of Miffys clean molted fur in a bag think I will see how things go and possibly give this a go if there is no improvement in the next couple of weeks.


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

we've got fur regrowth all over the place even her hocks  she's gaining weight but it's mosty fat she's not charging around gaining muscle but defiantly progress


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