# Why do pet buyers opt for unregistered kittens?



## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

This is prompted by me seeing an advert for unregistered Selkirk Rex kittens which will be ready to go underage with no vaccinations being sold at only £75 less than the average pet price ..... for an extra £75 people can get a fully registered and vaccinated and chipped kitten from a reputable breeder (not someone breeding from a non-active pet) who health tests etc...

I just can't fathom why someone would pay £375 for an unregistered unvaccinated kitten  

The more I see people "playing" at breeding and breeding from cats sold as pets and letting kittens go at 8 weeks the more it saddens me..... Clearly we need to work on education to the general public! 

BTW no sour grapes here - my kittens had a waiting list and I don't breed unless I plan a kitten for myself or have people interested. It's not a case of me being worried by 'competition' for kitten sales ;-)


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

People always seem to go for the "bargain" option 

I agree it's down to educating people of the dangers and realities of the cheap option, but I doubt that things will ever really change, sadly.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't get why either. Here, the difference is significant 550-600 to 275-375 so I can sort of see why one would take the risk. Doesn't help that many people think 8-9 weeks is the perfect time for kittens to leave the nest. ..


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh also want to say that Dutch BYBs are getting smarter. They send a swab to some weird lab which offers packages for about 50 euros so they ate apparently tested for hcm (not possible via DNA for my breed), PKD, PRA (no use for my breed) and a whole bunch of others do they can claim to be tested only they aren't really. Someone looking for a kitten could easily fall for it


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I think breeders have got a bad reputation for cashing in on kittens/puppies, put restrictions on papers so nobody can make money from their kittens etc but they obviously earn a fortune tax free.
If you can buy a moggy for under £50 why can't you by a pedigree for the same...kittens are kittens aren't they?

I obviously say all this very much tongue in cheek and do know the reality but if someone can save £200 on a kitten that they only want as a pet then they are going to do just that.

Not everybody vaccinates kittens pedigree or not.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lilythepink said:


> <snip>
> 
> Not everybody vaccinates kittens pedigree or not.


The free insurance requires the kitten has been vaccinated and the GCCF would take a very dim view of a breeder routinely not vaccinating kittens. Of course 8-week old kittens are too young to be vaccinated.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> The free insurance requires the kitten has been vaccinated and the GCCF would take a very dim view of a breeder routinely not vaccinating kittens. Of course 8-week old kittens are too young to be vaccinated.


but somebody buying an unregistered and unvaccinated kitten is less likely to vaccinate anyway.

Kittens are often seen advertised aged 6 to 8 weeks and people go with what they know. Years ago kittens were always available at 6 weeks, so many people would naturally assume this is the correct age to get a kitten.

and free insurance....how many people really know about that unless they have already been down the correct route of getting a kitten, properly registered and properly vaccinated....in which case then it would be unlikely they would then go for one not sorted properly.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> the GCCF would take a very dim view of a breeder routinely not vaccinating kittens.


How would they know? The only time I was involved with a case it was because the breeder was forging vaccination certificates. If they hadn't done so and just sold kittens unvaccinated nothing would have been discovered.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

So I should have wrote 'The GCCF would take a dim view if they found out a breeder routinely wasn't vaccinating / was forging vaccination certificates'.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> and free insurance....how many people really know about that unless they have already been down the correct route of getting a kitten, properly registered and properly vaccinated....


Not applicable in most cases anyway. Petplan offer 4 weeks 'free' insurance for any kitten, pedigree or moggy. It may be a 'requirement' with Agria if the free period is arranged by a GCCF breeder but it isn't for an individual owner.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> So I should have wrote 'The GCCF would take a dim view if they found out a breeder routinely wasn't vaccinating / was forging vaccination certificates'.


The point is they'd have to know to take a dim view.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Of course they would - that's obvious, innit?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I don't think the majority of buyers know enough about breeding or what registration is. They are looking for a kitten that's at the cute kitten stage and don't know about socialisation - 8 weeks is fine as far as the majority are concerned (and let's face it 8 week old kittens are very cute) They are being offered a 'pedigree' kitten - they have pedigree papers to prove it - for a 'reasonable' price. Do they care that the parents weren't registered for breeding? Do they even know? Of course they don't. You only need to look at your breeding record on the GCCF site to see how many kittens are still in your name to know that registration really doesn't matter to them.
The majority of my kitten buyers have been previous owners of Siamese and do know about all of the above but I have had to explain it all to some who have asked about the price or why I keep them until they're 13 weeks old.
Education is the answer but I don't know how we get that message across to be honest.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I don't think the majority of buyers know enough about breeding or what registration is


The other side of the coin is that those who do look for a registered and vaccinated pedigree can throw all common sense out of the window when it comes to the other things they should be checking for. They will buy a kitten from dire surroundings just because it does have paperwork.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

From a moggy-loving point of view, I would say the reason a lot of people take a kitten that is and looks like a particular breed but has no papers is maybe because the papers don't mean a thing to them. If you breed and show cats, or if you know that papers mean the cat has been tested for various problems, then those papers are meaninglful. But for vast numbers of people, a (for example) Ragdoll look and Ragdoll character is what they want, and paying an extra £100 or £200 for paperwork doesn't interest them. 

In terms of breeding, an unregistered purebred cat is a moggy. But for the layman, a moggy that looks like a Siamese, sounds like a Siamese and acts like a Siames, IS a Siamese. As long as cats and kittens are well cared for, as long as they are not mis-sold (ie with forged papers), I don't really see why it has to be any more of a big deal than someone letting their moggy girl go and get pregnant. 

Of course many of these cats are not as well cared for as they should be, and there is an overload of homeless cats, but specifically in reply to the question why would someone pay nealry the same price for a lookalike without papers, those are my thoughts.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> <snip>
> paying an extra £100 or £200 for paperwork doesn't interest them.
> 
> <snip>


It's not the paperwork that costs much money, it's keeping the kittens for an extra 4-5 weeks when they are eating as much each as an adult cat. Also they get vaccinated during that time (more expense), and in some cases chipped and/or neutered (yet more expense).

I've been lucky that Lola has had two litters of 6. The cost of the paperwork is about £50 including 1/6 of the stud fee - without using an active registered stud I can't register the kittens.

Anyone asking that much to supply the kitten with paperwork is scamming.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

But from the pov of the uneducated public, it's often seen that way.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Anyone asking that much to supply the kitten with paperwork is scamming.


There is the odd ad where two prices are given and the difference can be considerable. As you've pointed out though it isn't just the paperwork, it's the extra weeks of feeding etc. I've seen situations where a breeder falls on hard times and the sale of a kitten or two at 9 or 10 weeks ensures the continued high standard of care for the rest of a litter. I'm not saying it's ideal by a long way but the alternative may be worse. I think I even prefer it to a breeder who is financially close to the edge taking deposits which they couldn't refund if something happened to a booked kitten. I've seen too much to condemn people over a bit of paperwork without knowing the back story and the motives behind any course of action. For me the overriding consideration has been and always will be how the cats and kittens are looked after.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

People who don't know would think like this.....

find a breeder of kittens .

Go to the breeder. Very nice house in nice area.Nice and fairly new 4x4 car.

Breeder has 5 cats and 1 stud boy( just a random example)Breeder has waiting list and no kittens available until at least 3 more litters.so, kittens sell like hot cakes?

Cat has 6 kittens aged 13 weeks and all cute and sold and each one is £400.

Each cat has 6 kittens and cats can breed twice a year.

6x£400 x2= £4,800

£4,800 x 5 breeding queens. that works out at £24,000.....if I calculated right?And, 1 person feeding 1 kitten would also think...how much is a couple of tins of whiskas?and maybe half a bag of cat litter?

and then active and non active...so the breeder can earn a tax free fortune breeding cats but won't let anybody else in on this lucrative money making scheme?

Also, if today somebody wanted a kitten and went to a good breeder they may be met with 20 questions about their lifestyle etc and a good chance they would be turned down by the breeder if the answers weren't good enough...whereas a BYB just wants money and will sell you anything you want for cheaper.....plus, if BYBs can sell kittens for less without papers and someone is wanting to earn a few quid, somebody else can also do the same.

and, if you pay £200 for a pedigree without papers, how much can you get for a x breed that still looks something like a pedigree when it is a cute kitten.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Just looked and there is one 'breeder' offering Selkirks obviously unregistered, says they are British with curly coats (which makes selkirk breeders rankle as that is NOT what they are). BUt. . . . not a single of the kittens they want £300 for is curly? Huh?


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## sammydeea (Jul 31, 2011)

Gorgeous 9 Week Old Ginger Kitten for sale | Borehamwood, Hertfordshire | Pets4Homes

Someone is trying to sell a moggy for 270. Seems like it doesn't even matter to some people if there pedegree crossed or nothing !


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Years ago the recommendation for kittens was 6-8 weeks, pretty much once weaned and a bit extra. Now it's 13 weeks, and the main reason given is socialistion. Now this is a genuine question, about all the reasons why 13 weeks is better. I'm asking because I've never had a kitten at 13 weeks, the 3 I've had (last one nearly 30 years ago!) have left mum at 6 or 7 weeks. 

Firstly, are there any health benefits for the kitten stay with mother from 8 to 13 weeks? ie immunity, etc.

Is there a socialising benefit for the kitten to stay with mother for the extra time? Yes they might arguably be more inter-cat socialised, but how does the extra time make them any more human-socialised? 

The vaccinations and early neuter arguments I completely understand and agree with, please don't think my questions are about that. I'm asking purely about the kitten's welfare psychologically and the kitten's socialisation as a pet. 

All 3 kittens we had were attached to us (me) and very imprintable - by which I mean they responded very well to guidance on the behaviours we wanted to avoid like interest in roads, and keeping out of dangerous situations in the home. That's all I ever ask from my cats, is that they learn to be safe, and to develop a loving, trusting bond with me and other people. All my cats except Purdy have a strong primary bond with one person, that's kittens and the other 4 that have come to me as adults. So is that the general way I am with cats, or could that have been developed with the kittens as a result of them being only 8 weeks old, and in the adult cats as a result of them having been passed around a bit before I got them?

I know what I believe but I'm open to learning and being corrected!


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

havoc said:


> The other side of the coin is that those who do look for a registered and vaccinated pedigree can throw all common sense out of the window when it comes to the other things they should be checking for. They will buy a kitten from dire surroundings just because it does have paperwork.


My cats are pets. I decided a couple of years ago that I wanted house cats again after my original ones all died mainly from old age.It had to be siamese for me too.None of them have paperwork but they were bred from and some had been shown.

I had a dakkie dog who died only last year and it was not possible to have a kitten with her around so I started to look for an older cat from a private home.

I searched round the country but eventually found someone who was giving up breeding not too far away from me.

I went to the house and picked a couple of older....much older ....cats. The breeder gave them to me for free but I had to pay for neutering.All in all, I took 8 cats from this woman but 3 have since died in the almost 3 years since I got them.

The cats were in bad conditions and the breeder explained she was giving up due to ill health cos she just couldn't cope any more.I took 8 cats and my daughters took some too so between us we took 15 cats altogether.
since we took these cats....that all had giardia....the woman has restocked her cat pens and has bred several litters.

I took the cats originally in good faith, all we did was free up cat pens so this BYB could re stock and breed more cats. We took 15 between us and still have them all apart from 3 of mine and 2 of one daughters that died.Several of the cats we didn't take were PTS.....heard that on the grapevine.No way would I ever buy a kitten and pay good money to this breeder...but thats only with plenty hindsight.

She does register kittens, she does vaccinate, her place is spotless and there are rosettes everywhere.....so unless you really know, you wouldn't know a BYB or not.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

When I got my first pedigree at 13 I was astounded at the confidence that this kitten had, how easily she integrated with the humans in the house, just how much more socialised in all respects than any 7 or 8 week old kitten we'd had previously. I too, had been very sceptical about the added benefits of 13 weeks versus 8 weeks. I was won over immediately. Kittens are still feeding form mum at 13 weeks when they leave (probably only a once a day comfort feed by then) but still important. Take them away at 6-7 weeks when they have only just learnt to eat and I would imagine that you put extra stain on their systems by making them only eat cat food, rather than gradually weaning them off the milk bar (hence a lot of runny bums in kittens that leave early). The health benefits I would imagine are more psychological though. 

Taking a 6 week old away from mum is like sending a 2 year old out to work, just why? 6 week old kittens are still making mistakes with the litter tray, something mum teaches them, they need time to grow as kittens, to become confident with playing, and being, and being in a stable environment before leaving home as confident almost teenagers. 

Since then, with breeding, I have seen how mum teaches the cats loads between 8 and 13 weeks, and beyond if a cat stays. Bomber was still giving lessons to Cecily at 6 months. Mum teaches about bite and scratch inhibition (which extends to humans too), teaches manners, how to 'be' in a household etc. That extra confidence and tellings off when naughty all make a much more sociable, well behaved cat when it is adult.

I personally keep mum with the kittens until they leave, I know some take mum away at around 6-7 weeks. I don't really agree with that practise. 

However, each to their own, 8-9 weeks is way better than 6-7, 13 weeks is an optimum, probably arrived at because of vacs, but is def better than 8-9.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Thank you Spid that's exactly the sort of detailed info I was looking for. Personally we've never had any problems with littering or jippy tummies so it's good to hear what the issues can be, only Misha needed a few days of licking food from my fingers before she really got it, but she was just 6 and a half weeks. I'm unlikely to ever have a kitten again, just to clarify that's not why I'm asking


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Another plus about a 13-week old kitten is you can be sure it's fully weaned - some 8-week olds are still very dependant on suckling - and at that age the stress of a new home is far less likely to upset toilet training, eating, and so on.

However Lola is busy teaching her kittens that if they pester her she will feed them!


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> Is there a socialising benefit for the kitten to stay with mother for the extra time? Yes they might arguably be more inter-cat socialised, but how does the extra time make them any more human-socialised?


I made the mistake of getting Meeko when he was days over 9 weeks , not because I was trying to get a cheaper kitten as by the time I had his vacc's etc done it was going to be much the same price anyway.
Would I do that again ,no I would not I have learned from my mistakes.
He was super confident , you could say too b**dy confident and totally bomb proof, but he had no social skills at all.
He had missed out on the "hard knocks" teaching that only a mother cat and his siblings could teach him.
With the help of PF members and a very good behaviourist he is now a fairly well adjusted boy but what a shame it had to happen in the first place .


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

ForeverHome said:


> Thank you Spid that's exactly the sort of detailed info I was looking for. Personally we've never had any problems with littering or jippy tummies so it's good to hear what the issues can be, only Misha needed a few days of licking food from my fingers before she really got it, but she was just 6 and a half weeks. I'm unlikely to ever have a kitten again, just to clarify that's not why I'm asking


My brother has just got 2 kittens (and mum - as black as was being over looked) - from the CPL - at 14 weeks. But, kept in a pen, minimal human interaction really as the place was struggling with the amount of cats they had. Mum separated off at 6 -7 weeks ish. At 16 weeks these kittens are still having litter tray issues.

So, conclusion isn't the age as such but it has to be combined with a good environment and good socialisation from the breeder too. I spend hours with the kittens every day (as they are now in the living room getting used to people and noises etc - they coped with hubby screaming at the England football team, so I reckon they will be almost bomb proof with shouting!) Mum comes and goes from the room as she pleases but still spends a lot of time with them. They still feed at least 5 times a day from her in the day more at night I expect (they are nearly 7 weeks). They have only just started serious running around and learning to climb and jump safely, all under mum's watchful eye and she does tell them to be careful when trying out silly things (walking along the top of the radiators!!!!  ) I can't imagine how they could in any way be imagined to be ready to be rehomed.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Your comments on socialisation make a whole lot of sense. All 3 of mine came free to good home from friends or friends of the family. Being free to good home, the owners of the mum were absolutely not breeders or in it to make a fast buck, the kittens were all raised with lots of kind handling including by children and one with dogs (the cat and dog had their babies within hours of each other) and therefore they were a great delight in their first home, not a licence to print money or an unwanted nuisance to be got rid of asap. 

Perhaps that makes a big difference.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> So, conclusion isn't the age as such but it has to be combined with a good environment and good socialisation from the breeder too.


Absolutely! There's no benefit whatsoever in a kitten remaining in a bad environment awaiting a date on a calendar.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

havoc said:


> Absolutely! There's no benefit whatsoever in a kitten remaining in a bad environment awaiting a date on a calendar.


I feel much better about my kittens then. You know when you know things are ok but later you get a doubt creep in ...


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I don't know why they buy them, a lot of people say 'papers don't matter to me' as they think they are for show or breeding only and not for 'just pets' Plus some of them may want to breed and knowing they are going to a breeder with papers that's wants you to neuter might put them off?

I have seen a lot of breeders that sell registered but not vaccinated, all gccf registered breeders to. Some charge more to vaccinate and some do homeopathy vaccinations.

We don't have new cars or a big house, plus its basically empty, Im very minimalist, its mainly filled with cat stuff!  Not all breeders are rich and live in big houses with big shiny new cars etc (probably put my neck out and say most aren't lol!!)

Plus you need to add on the outgoings and things that go wrong, I lost after my last litter left, I thought I was going to break even, that was 5 kittens! 6 kittens is also a big litter, some people may only have 2 kittens and some people don't breed twice a year, some people neuter after 1 or 2 litters and don't own a stud so pay out stud fees and travel.

But I understand that people don't take that into account when they think breeders are earning lots of money etc This made me laugh:


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

I was naive, didn't realise until I came on PF that pedigree kittens were vaccinated and left at 13 weeks. 

Having 2 KC registered dogs who we got at 8 weeks old and unvaccinated, I thought kittens were the same and it was up to the new owners to sort this out. I have since learnt a lot about kitten and puppy buying since being on here.

Pleased to say that Henry, Ozzy and Olaf are from registered breeders.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Taylorbaby said:


> I don't know why they buy them, a lot of people say 'papers don't matter to me' as they think they are for show or breeding only and not for 'just pets' Plus some of them may want to breed and knowing they are going to a breeder with papers that's wants you to neuter might put them off?
> 
> I have seen a lot of breeders that sell registered but not vaccinated, all gccf registered breeders to. Some charge more to vaccinate and some do homeopathy vaccinations.
> 
> ...


yes and this was my point exactly....you don;t realise the cost of anything til you have done it for yourself. My point was that is what the average person in the street may think.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't blame the person in the street for thinking it either. I don't make my kitten buyers scrutinise my invoices for cat litter nor do I make them look at the cost of an OOH C-section. I show them litters of healthy, well socialised kittens, serve them tea and biccies, use concealer to cover up the dark circles under my eyes and make it all look as if it happens by magic. Can't blame people for then thinking it does


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm not saying I'd go to a BYB but I have absolutely no interest in registered kittens or puppies. There are plenty good breeders who don't register their litters but are still breeding healthy cats/dogs. Obviously the price makes a difference too, a lot of people would go with a cheaper pet, for obvious reasons!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

happysaz133 said:


> I'm not saying I'd go to a BYB but I have absolutely no interest in registered kittens or puppies. There are plenty good breeders who don't register their litters but are still breeding healthy cats/dogs. *Obviously the price makes a difference too, a lot of people would go with a cheaper pet, for obvious reasons*!


The difference in cost between registering and not registering kittens isn't much - it's a maximum of £14 to register a kitten (£23 for a non-prefix registration). For a small litter or a singleton the stud fee becomes significant, but the price charged doesn't usually reflect that.

The big difference in cost is in letting them go at 8 weeks unvaccinated etc. and at 13 weeks, vaccinated, wormed, and possibly chipped & neutered. Each kitten is eating as much or more than an adult, that's reflected in 'throughput'. It probably costs you as much to feed, worm, vaccinate, neuter and chip a kitten as it costs me.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

PetloverJo said:


> I was naive, didn't realise until I came on PF that pedigree kittens were vaccinated and left at 13 weeks.
> 
> Having 2 KC registered dogs who we got at 8 weeks old and unvaccinated, I thought kittens were the same and it was up to the new owners to sort this out. I have since learnt a lot about kitten and puppy buying since being on here..


BUT this is what the 'average member of Joe Public' thinks - and who educates them otherwise?

Yes, if they've come to somewhere like here they should gain a load of useful info - but how many people would know to do that when they're looking to get a pup / kitten?

TBH although I realise why it's done I would have an issue with some of the T&Cs in a lot of the 'contracts' that many cat & dog breeders seem to insist on


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## Susan M (Feb 20, 2013)

As a buyer, I knew I wanted a BSH and that it would cost me, I wanted the guarantee of a healthy kitten, from health tested parents. It didn't ever cross my mind that I could perhaps get one cheaper, money didn't matter, if you're going to pay hundreds for a kitten, why not just save up a bit more and pay the cost of a registered kitten, I'd have got a moggy over paying hundreds for an unregistered kitten to be honest. 
I don't know what "standard price" for BSH's are, but from figures I've seen on here at different times I think I paid the expensive end, I absolutely love my breeder though and she is never short of interested new slaves.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

To me a registered kitten is the breeder confirming that everything is above board and they are doing everything a reputable breeder should. 

When looking for a pedigree, first Bengals, then Siamese I was adamant I was going to a proper breeder who health tested, vaccinated, insured, kept for 13 weeks etc etc. 

My husband on the other hand doesn't care about any of the above, when we were looking for a Bengal he wanted a cat that looked like a Bengal and acted like a Bengal, didn't matter if it was from a breeder who health tested etc. He is the kind of person who would go to a BYB because he just wanted a "Bengal" Frustrating but I am sure he is not the only one. Thankfully he has me to tell him the ins and outs of everything but not everybody does as much research as me. 

When I bought my Siamese I paid a price towards the lower end of the expected scale. However, I was fully happy with the way she bred, the way she raised her kittens, she vaccinated etc and clearly wanted to produce great kittens. I would have easily paid £100 more which again was within the scale but I would not have expected anything more for my money.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I think too often people don't research until after the fact.

Google is a wonderful tool, the majority of my kitten buyers have researched, they ask questions double checking the kittens are neutered, vaccinated, registered etc. all the things that should be done.

Even the bybs & moggy breeders have to follow neutering, chipping & vaccinating laws here so there sometimes isn't much difference in price, people can easily see that it's better value going with health tested parents and health guaranteed kittens.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I was going to buy my first ragdoll from a registered breeder, what a shock i got, the cats wete kept outside in pens, girls as well as the studs, it was filthy
I also know someone who is not registered and her cats [not ragdolls] are lovely, clean, vaccinated, and still kept for 12 weeks, registered doesnt always mean best
As for vaccination i believe now that some believe vaccinations shouldnt be done on ragdolls especially until 18 weeks, there is a breeder local to me who is registered, but doesnt vaccinate, and another who vaccinates homeopathically


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Some registered breeders are no more than registered BYBs. I make it clear in my ads that my cats are all pets, they live in the house with me, and that is where Lola's kittens are being raised.

A good unregistered breeder is almost certainly preferable to the registered BYBs, though with breeds like Ragdolls, MCs & Bengals I do wonder if they scan for HCM... 

Was talking to a friend who runs a cattery last night and she was telling me about some very un-Bengal like 'Bengals' a client has, almost certainly from an unregistered breeder.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> A good unregistered breeder is almost certainly preferable to the registered BYBs


I couldn't agree more. Anyone can buy a prefix and this has turned into prefix holders referring to themselves as 'registered breeders'. The term is meaningless.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> I think too often people don't research until after the fact.


I think this is the reason. I knew nothing until I decided I wanted a ped and then didn't know anyone who had one so the only guidance was from books (very early days of the internet). Fortunately I was taken in hand by the kitten list co-ordinator of my chosen breed when I eventually found her number and I am very grateful for the time she spent on me!

I have had a lot of negativity coming from acquaintances who know nothing at all about it, and whose comments generally lead back to a feeling that people are making money unethically and that somehow it is deeply suspect to want a breed. These would be the same people who then are ecstatic because they got a breed kitten for a fraction of the proper price, and whose suspicions will then be borne out by the bad experiences they have with a byb kitten, and who can't tell a Bengal from a dsh tabby.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Ad on freeads, Ragdoll kittens £400 can leave at 8 weeks, York
I think whether registered or not, *no* kitten should leave at 8 weeks,and £400 for an 8 week old:yikes:


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Small cute kittens, people feel that by 13 weeks they have "missed out" on the "kitten" stage, that is why I perceive BYBs do so well - especially with the larger breeds who can be "huge" by the time they get to 13 weeks. The implications of having them so young is not understood until it is too late.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

wicket said:


> Small cute kittens, people feel that by 13 weeks they have "missed out" on the "kitten" stage, that is why I perceive BYBs do so well - especially with the larger breeds who can be "huge" by the time they get to 13 weeks. The implications of having them so young is not understood until it is too late.


Out of interest do we know the proportion of kittens with/without problems is at say 8 and 13 weeks?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Impossible to say. Firstly we'd have to define 'problems'. There are so many other factors than the age at which a kitten moves to a new home though the less favourable ones are likely to be more common for a kitten which isn't bred and raised by a caring breeder and let go younger. There's nothing magic about the 12/13 week point other than it happens to fit with current vaccination protocol which is the only reason for the GCCF guidelines. If there is an age at which I can say I see a marked change towards independence in kittens it's around 10 weeks.


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## Susan M (Feb 20, 2013)

Orphelia came home at 13 weeks, she's very gentle, will never play with claws, if I've got treats in my hand she'll grab my hands but again no claws, she's never bitten or shown any signs of aggression. My Dad and his gf got a kitten the same time that was younger, he scratches, he's destructive, he thinks you use teeth to play, he actually bit me last week when I was stroking him, he's over a year old now.
I know this is just one case, but I do believe it makes a difference staying with Mum and litter mates that little bit longer.


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> The difference in cost between registering and not registering kittens isn't much - it's a maximum of £14 to register a kitten (£23 for a non-prefix registration). For a small litter or a singleton the stud fee becomes significant, but the price charged doesn't usually reflect that.
> 
> The big difference in cost is in letting them go at 8 weeks unvaccinated etc. and at 13 weeks, vaccinated, wormed, and possibly chipped & neutered. Each kitten is eating as much or more than an adult, that's reflected in 'throughput'. It probably costs you as much to feed, worm, vaccinate, neuter and chip a kitten as it costs me.


I know it doesn't cost a lot to register a kitten, but a lot of breeders charge up to £75, or even more sometimes, for a registered kitten/ puppy vs. a non registered one. Even though it doesn't cost them nearly that much, a lot of the general public who have never had dealings with registering a litter don't realise that, and think, my kitten/puppy will be just as good without the papers.

Obviously I know that isn't right, but in my opinion, that is one of the major reasons why a lot of people don't go with registered kittens or puppies.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I just think at 8 weeks they might still be vulnerable to things going wrong, apart from the fact that £400 is a lot to pay for an 8 week old kitten, even another couple of weeks could make a difference
Just my opinion though


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Even though it doesn't cost them nearly that much, a lot of the general public who have never had dealings with registering a litter don't realise that, and think, my kitten/puppy will be just as good without the papers.


The 'papers' aren't what makes any difference at all. It's the care and expense put into breeding and raising the kitten which matters. Generally a breeder who registers (or at least declares) a litter is sending out a message that they have a set of standards. There's no guarantee but it isn't a bad starting point, a worthwhile initial filter.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Registration is only 12.50 here. The main cost comes from the HCM tests, the stud fee(also higher due to tested studs) and keeping the kittens til they are older (high quality food etc.). I have never come across an unregistered kitten with properly tested parents.

That said, I believe that everyone has a choice and is responsible for their own choices. If they want a kitten from untested parents, that's fine. Maybe the kitten will be fine and live til it's 20. Maybe the poor mite might die within 2 weeks but it's your problem if you are sad. As the Dutch says 'eigen schuld, dime bult' (something like you made your bed, now lie in it)


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

happysaz133 said:


> I know it doesn't cost a lot to register a kitten, but a lot of breeders charge up to £75, or even more sometimes, for a registered kitten/ puppy vs. a non registered one. Even though it doesn't cost them nearly that much, a lot of the general public who have never had dealings with registering a litter don't realise that, and think, my kitten/puppy will be just as good without the papers.
> 
> Obviously I know that isn't right, but in my opinion, that is one of the major reasons why a lot of people don't go with registered kittens or puppies.


What about keeping them for a extra 5 weeks? Full health tests before mating? Full vacs, neutering, worming, raising them right? knowing what you are buying is what is stated, to save myself £75 over a life that is going to hopefully be with me for 10-20years, I really don't think its something you 'save' on? And for the sake of so little, when it will cost you more in the long run, how is that worth it or good breeders?


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> What about keeping them for a extra 5 weeks? Full health tests before mating? Full vacs, neutering, worming, raising them right? knowing what you are buying is what is stated, to save myself £75 over a life that is going to hopefully be with me for 10-20years, I really don't think its something you 'save' on? And for the sake of so little, when it will cost you more in the long run, how is that worth it or good breeders?


I'm not saying its worth it or a good breeder, I'm just saying what people I know have said about buying kittens. That is why a lot of pet buyers opt for unregistered kittens! And it is a fact, that thousands of people buy unregistered, not health tested moggies at 8 weeks, sometimes even younger, and this live perfectly healthy long lives.

I would never buy a kitten full stop, so its irrelevant to me.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Susan M said:


> Orphelia came home at 13 weeks, she's very gentle, will never play with claws, if I've got treats in my hand she'll grab my hands but again no claws, she's never bitten or shown any signs of aggression. My Dad and his gf got a kitten the same time that was younger, he scratches, he's destructive, he thinks you use teeth to play, he actually bit me last week when I was stroking him, he's over a year old now.
> I know this is just one case, but I do believe it makes a difference staying with Mum and litter mates that little bit longer.


I'd love to agree and I do think it's good for them to be with their mother / siblings longer if possible

But a lot of it still has to be down to individual characteristics

Both mine were hand reared - both in exactly the same way - and yet Archie is very laid back, very gentle (never uses his claws when playing like your girl etc) and Mia can be a viscious wee sod when she wants to be .....


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## Susan M (Feb 20, 2013)

Lilylass said:


> I'd love to agree and I do think it's good for them to be with their mother / siblings longer if possible
> 
> But a lot of it still has to be down to individual characteristics
> 
> Both mine were hand reared - both in exactly the same way - and yet Archie is very laid back, very gentle (never uses his claws when playing like your girl etc) and Mia can be a viscious wee sod when she wants to be .....


I agree it does depend on the cat and individual circumstances, these are the first cats we have had that were kept until 13 weeks and I feel there is a definite difference, everyone will have differing experiences though


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I don't know why people opt for unregistered kittens but I'm sure it must have something to do with the fact that they don't care because they don't understand that a registered kitten is at least a good starting point. 

What I DO know is that most people who have researched enough to know they want a registered, vaccinated, etc, etc, kitten aren't actually bothered, ultimately, about the kitten's registration at all. I'm meant to encourage new owners to transfer kittens into their names. Hardly anyone does. They just seem happy in the knowledge that I've done everything I'm supposed to do and couldn't care less about paying £12 to have a piece of paper showing their name as the registered owner.


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## catsandkittens (Jul 20, 2014)

My kitten is an unregistered pedigree. His parents are registered though and he was vaccinated and came home at 13 weeks. The price difference was not significantly cheaper than the registered pedigrees of his breed.

At the time I didn't think much of it but now I wonder why the breeder did not opt to register the litter?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Parent(s) might not have been registered for breeding, and/or trying to save a few quid.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Or breeding too many litters in a small space of time.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

messyhearts said:


> Or breeding too many litters in a small space of time.


The GCCF doesn't have any rules about that, so I doubt it's the reason.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> The GCCF doesn't have any rules about that, so I doubt it's the reason.


I thought the gccf had a rule that kittens can't be registered unless there is 17 weeks between the litters?


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It's a recommendation, not a rule.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

carly87 said:


> It's a recommendation, not a rule.


Thanks Carly, I knew it was something to do with 17 weeks


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

carly87 said:


> It's a recommendation, not a rule.


I also suppose it would be impossible to enforce this rule anyway. Anyone can register their kittens whatever date they choose couldn't they? A week here or there who would know?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Or they don't register one of the litters.


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

Why? Because they like the look of the cat, they want one and it's cheaper to get an unregistered one - oh, and since they aren't desexed OR on any contract to be desexed, the new owners have the option of breeding a litter or two themselves. 

I think most people wanting a pedigree cat aren't interested in 'having the papers' (what's the point anyway unless you were wanting to show the cat??) - they simply want a cat that looks like a pedigree and one that probably is pedigree. Even if it's mixed with some other breed they don't know about, for the lay person, they'll simply be happy to have a 'Persian' and proudly tell their friends they have a Persian. 


There isn't anything anyone can do about it other than do yr best - the whole breeding of pedigrees just shows they no matter how controlled it is, how much some breeders want to have kittens end up in the right. Homes with the right intentions - it's almost just as out of control as the Moggie market and therefore no better.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> it's almost just as out of control as the Moggie market and therefore no better


I agree with almost. I do support the attempt of registration bodies to set minimum standards which good, honest breeders adhere to. The reality is that bad breeders lie - and they lie convincingly so they will always find a way around rules and recommendations whilst claiming to be 'registered' breeders. A bad breeder doesn't have to leave a litter unregistered because the queen is used as a breeding machine. They can (and do) simply list another of their cats as the mother of a litter for registration purposes. They'll do the same for a mating of close relatives eg mother/son, father/daughter or brother/sister.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> I agree with almost. I do support the attempt of registration bodies to set minimum standards which good, honest breeders adhere to. The reality is that bad breeders lie - and they lie convincingly so they will always find a way around rules and recommendations whilst claiming to be 'registered' breeders. A bad breeder doesn't have to leave a litter unregistered because the queen is used as a breeding machine. *They can (and do) simply list another of their cats as the mother of a litter for registration purposes. They'll do the same for a mating of close relatives eg mother/son, father/daughter or brother/sister*.


And I guess a lot of these dubious breeders have enough cats to do that.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> And I guess a lot of these dubious breeders have enough cats to do that.


They have enough registered to them. If you think about they don't even have to have the cats. It's a scam which has been made even easier with the GCCF's obsession with putting so much information online.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> They have enough registered to them. If you think about they don't even have to have the cats. It's a scam which has been made even easier with the GCCF's obsession with putting so much information online.


What helpful information is online? Yes I can see pedigrees with breed & registration numbers for cats registered to me, but not for others, and the same information should be on the pedigree that came with the kitten. Some pedigrees show more.

They don't show the parents in the show reports (the catalogues do).


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> What helpful information is online? Yes I can see pedigrees with breed & registration numbers for cats registered to me, but not for others, and the same information should be on the pedigree that came with the kitten. Some pedigrees show more.
> 
> They don't show the parents in the show reports (the catalogues do).


I have 11 kittens registered to me on line that now belong to their new slaves - for GCCF purposes they still belong to me - this is only from three litters - it would be very easy for me to now change the status of one of these cats to "active" and then use these details to register a litter from another cat even though I no longer have the cat whose details I would be using.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I have a lot more than eleven! Used to be dishonest breeders would use details of neutered or even deceased cats from their own household.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

The reason that most buyers opt for unregistered kittens is the total lack of regulation, the arcane impenetrable bureaucracy and incomprehensible language surrounding the process of buying a kitten from a supposedly registered reputable breeder.

I'll hazard a guess that fewer than 1 in 100,000 buyers could even understand what this thread is about.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'll hazard a guess that fewer than 1 in 100,000 buyers could even understand what this thread is about.


You could be right. If you are then the thread is in the right section, the one mostly frequented by breeders who are discussing a topic they understand.


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## prada (Nov 3, 2007)

havoc said:


> You could be right. If you are then the thread is in the right section, the one mostly frequented by breeders who are discussing a topic they understand.


Well said.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

havoc said:


> You could be right. If you are then the thread is in the right section, the one mostly frequented by breeders who are discussing a topic they understand.


The question was why do *pet buyers* opt for unregistered kittens.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

prada said:


> Well said.


Wtf. The question was why do *pet buyers* opt for unregistered kittens.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The question was why do pet buyers opt for unregistered kittens.


Breeders have many discussions among themselves about all sorts of things re pet buyers.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I am sure there used to be a breeders section only breeders could access, otherwise people like me will wonder on here and give suggestions, opinions etc..

The simple answer is that they are a cheaper option. I did exactly the same thing with my dog, I didn't intend to show him or breed from him so imo I was saving £100.00. I wasn't a member on here and yes I was very naïve. I have paid £1,000s in vet fees over the past 9 years because of his problems due to his breeding.

When I bought the sibling moggies I knew exactly what I was doing, their litter was from a woman on benefits. The mother cat was in a shocking state, according to the owner this wasn't her first litter. I couldn't help but suggest the mother cat be spayed as soon as possible answer "I can't afford it I'm on benefits".

Well lets have a think about that one at least two litters assuming three kittens in each litter at £40 per kitten gives a total of £240.00. I had both boys neutered and microchipped for £80.00 (in fact I am fairly sure I got change from £80.00) at that time.

I had to take the kittens from the breeder straight to the vets and they were under veterinary care for approximately three months. (my two are not unregistered kittens, they are moggies).

With what I know today and my experience of unregistered pedigree pets, I would only choose a registered pedigree.

I got Bellini a registered pedigree high white seal bi colour Ragdoll, not desirable for showing, however the GCCF had just introduced the pedigree pet section and I have shown him. He hasn't cost me a penny in vet fees, he's a healthy beautiful boy. I would have no hesitation to approach his breeder again when I am ready to look for another kitten.

A good breeder goes way beyond paperwork, they offer support throughout the pets life and are genuinely interested in the pet.

There is a world of difference between Registered pet breeders and unregistered pet breeders - my understanding is that where cats are concerned unregistered litters have come from a cat on the non-active register and should not have been bred in the first place for whatever reason.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I am sure there used to be a breeders section only breeders could access, otherwise people like me will wonder on here and give suggestions, opinions etc..


And such opinions are very welcome and valued.
There are many threads which are specific and specialist in nature, some of which will have some general interest and some which won't. A detailed discussion about a difficult labour or one week old fading kittens is unlikely to be of much interest outwith breeders. A discussion about time wasting kitten viewers tends to attract a much more general response but that's no reason to be critical of specific posts from those with specific experience of the subject.


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

I am a pet buyer and would say that I have paid the higher end of the scale for any pedigrees that I have had, both canine and feline. We currently have a moggy but we're looking forward to welcoming another pedigree to our family next year hopefully. For me, paying extra generally gives you the peace of mind that the kitten has been raised in a loving environment on good food and well handled and socialised. I know of GCCF breeders where the kittens have been in a horrendous state and there are stories similar to this in cat chat. My thoughts would be that if all breeders can early neuter their non-active kittens, then surely, the future generations of pedigrees are protected from BYB as they will simply be unable to buy an entire pedigree or is that opening up another can of worms?


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

Maybe the question needs to be why do breeders sell either unregistered or unneutered pedigree kittens... If neither if those things happened, you wouldn't have unregistered or unneutured kittens ending up in the 'wrong' hands.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

To bring this topic back to the original subject, people do two things when looking at an advert, look at the advert title i.e. is it what they wanted (a kitten of a specific breed) and the price.

I expect pet people will buy unregistered kittens for two reasons.

1. They don't care about registration (the number of cats still in my ownership seems to verify this)
2. It doesn't occur to them to think of the other expenses they will incur, so they will happily pay £375 for an unregistered, unvaccinated kitten because it hasn't occurred to them to consider how much they will be paying to start the kittens vaccinations (£57 at my vets. If you want a microchip thats an extra £12.50). There is of course the possibility that they have no intention of vaccinating their new kitten.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> To bring this topic back to the original subject, people do two things when looking at an advert, look at the advert title i.e. is it what they wanted (a kitten of a specific breed) and the price.
> 
> I expect pet people will buy unregistered kittens for two reasons.
> 
> ...


How about:

They don't know about registries and registrations
They don't know that a breeder who registers their kittens in general is better than one who doesn't / can't
They want a 'pedigree' but don't want to pay the asking price

I own a lot of kittens as well - Lola has had 2 litters of 6 and I have kept one from each litter. Only 1 from the first litter and 2 from the second have been transferred, so instead of 2 kittens from the 12, I appear to own 9.

BTW I charge about the same for my kittens as breeders who register further south, except mine are not only vaccinated and wormed but also chipped and neutered.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

lymorelynn said:


> I don't think the majority of buyers know enough about breeding or what registration is. They are looking for a kitten that's at the cute kitten stage and don't know about socialisation - 8 weeks is fine as far as the majority are concerned (and let's face it 8 week old kittens are very cute) They are being offered a 'pedigree' kitten - they have pedigree papers to prove it - for a 'reasonable' price. Do they care that the parents weren't registered for breeding? Do they even know? Of course they don't. You only need to look at your breeding record on the GCCF site to see how many kittens are still in your name to know that registration really doesn't matter to them.
> The majority of my kitten buyers have been previous owners of Siamese and do know about all of the above but I have had to explain it all to some who have asked about the price or why I keep them until they're 13 weeks old.
> Education is the answer but I don't know how we get that message across to be honest.


I agree with LML I just don't think the average pet buyer knows what registration means - TBH when I bought Huck (my first pedigree) and I was given his registration papers, that was the first time I'd heard of registration. Then when I bought Holly I didn't realise she was unregistered (found out later her breeder had lifetime ban with GCCF) until I got her home and there was no paperwork in the pack other than a (pink interestingly) piece of paper with her supposed pedigree - not worth the paper it was written on 

Incidenatlly they were both bought at 13 weeks and I paid £700 for Huck and £650 for Holly - money wasn't really a motivation - in fact I stupidly thought the more I was paying the better the kitten I was getting - ridiculous - when I bought GCCF registered Grace this year she was £450.

I was totally naive back then


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2014)

I think it's a false economy really. People think they are getting the kittens cheaper when they are sold without papers and vaccinations. Once you get your kitten home and then book an apt with the vets for vaccinations, micro chipping etc you quickly realise that it would have been more cost effective (and probably better all round) if you would have bought from a reputable breeder.

Saying that I have had bad experiences with 'reputable breeders' in the past. We visited a breeder of Burmese kittens who apparently were 'home reared'. 

Her house was immaculate and when we asked to see the kittens, mother, father etc they were all out in a run. She brought the kittens in and they were ALL absolutely petrified. Cowering away from us and it was pretty obvious they were not being 'home reared'.


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## Felino (Jul 6, 2010)

Sadly buyers see just a lower price and often don't think about additional cost they will have to cover later and don't consider if they will get any help or support if anything happen with kitten. Often people don't have even basic knowledge about breed and health issues so don't pay any attention to health tests done by breeder. On top of everything buyers don't realize that registration slip is the only guarantee of kitten origin and pedigree itself is worth nothing (and often is false).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> On top of everything buyers don't realize that registration slip is the only guarantee of kitten origin


It is only a guarantee that the mating stated by the breeder could have produced kittens in the colours/patterns being registered.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> How about:
> 1. They don't know about registries and registrations
> 2. They don't know that a breeder who registers their kittens in general is better than one who doesn't / can't
> 3. They want a 'pedigree' but don't want to pay the asking price


Spot on with No. 1. GCCF, FIFE and TICA hardly put themselves out there, unlike the kennel club who have an advertising presence in most veterinary clinics, dog magazines and even TV thanks to Crufts.

No. 2 is sadly so true and is down to a lack of education. Having said that there are plenty of unregistered dogs sold despite the KC's best efforts to educate and the reasons why leads us nicely into No. 3. People just don't want to pay, everyone is after a bargain. Probably one of the most common questions I've been asked is why a kitten costs £450. Early on in my breeding life one lady told me that my kittens were too expensive and that her friend had bought one for £200 less than I was asking


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> Spot on with No. 1. GCCF, FIFE and TICA hardly put themselves out there, unlike the kennel club who have an advertising presence in most veterinary clinics, dog magazines and even TV thanks to Crufts.
> 
> No. 2 is sadly so true and is down to a lack of education. Having said that there are plenty of unregistered dogs sold despite the KC's best efforts to educate and the reasons why leads us nicely into No. 3. People just don't want to pay, everyone is after a bargain. Probably one of the most common questions I've been asked is why a kitten costs £450. Early on in my breeding life one lady told me that my kittens were too expensive and that her friend had bought one for £200 less than I was asking


And at £200 less, if it doesn't have health problems (and not all cheap kittens do) it will be cheaper than mine even if they buy vaccinates, worms, chips & neuters. However my own kittens were simply not ready to live at the age the £200 cheaper ones probably go at. They were only really starting on solid food at 8 weeks as Lola is generous with her milk. Had they gone at 8 weeks some of them would have struggled, indeed died if they hadn't had the right care promptly as I had to last year with the most backward one when Lola took a couple of days off feeding to call.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

I've just been looking through my pink/white papers cat bits and see my siamese Luci was £180 in 1996 she was on the active and the form is registered in our name. I think that's only because we bred her. 

My first siamese however from 1989 was never transferred, the breeders name is still clearly on her pink slip. Too late now she died 9 years ago!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Probably one of the most common questions I've been asked is why a kitten costs £450


I have it the other way too. People want to know what's wrong with mine because I only ask £450 and some breeders ask £500/£550. You can't win for trying to be fair sometimes


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I think there may also be an association in people's head between papers and breeding/showing. So if they aren't very knowledgeable they may think "I don't want to show so I don't need papers". I think the point about the gen public not knowing who the GCCF are is very pertinent too.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Jonescat said:


> I think there may also be an association in people's head between papers and breeding/showing. So if they aren't very knowledgeable they may think "I don't want to show so I don't need papers". I think the point about the gen public not knowing who the GCCF are is very pertinent too.


I think you are right about that. I'm reaching the point of considering including transfer to the new owners name in the price - at £12 it's small beer compared to the other costs. Owners leave with the A5 cert in my name (and the kitten etc. of course!), get the new one in their name whenever the GCCF gets it's finger out.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> I think you are right about that. I'm reaching the point of considering including transfer to the new owners name in the price - at £12 it's small beer compared to the other costs. Owners leave with the A5 cert in my name (and the kitten etc. of course!), get the new one in their name whenever the GCCF gets it's finger out.


I've considered doing that too. As you say it is a small price.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Are you saying don't register the kitten at all until it goes to the new owner? I have registered kittens directly in a new owner's name when booked early but it's against GCCF rules not to hand over reg docs at the time of sale so I've never worked out how to do a transfer for them if the kitten is already registered and the timings don't work.


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## Felino (Jul 6, 2010)

havoc said:


> It is only a guarantee that the mating stated by the breeder could have produced kittens in the colours/patterns being registered.


I think it's slightly more...it's the only proof that kitten is a pure breed and comes from pure breed parents.

Re registration, in TICA you can register kittens directly on new owners name.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I think it's slightly more...it's the only proof that kitten is a pure breed and comes from pure breed parents.


It's whatever the breeder has stated as long as the kittens being registered are possible from the stated mating.


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## Felino (Jul 6, 2010)

havoc said:


> It's whatever the breeder has stated as long as the kittens being registered are possible from the stated mating.


Better that than nothing


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Better that than nothing


From an honest breeder it's everything. From a dishonest one it's worse than nothing because it's used to defraud a buyer.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

havoc said:


> Are you saying don't register the kitten at all until it goes to the new owner? I have registered kittens directly in a new owner's name when booked early but it's against GCCF rules not to hand over reg docs at the time of sale so I've never worked out how to do a transfer for them if the kitten is already registered and the timings don't work.


No, I was thinking of doing an online transfer when the kitten is collected so the new paperwork would then be sent on to the new owner


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> Are you saying don't register the kitten at all until it goes to the new owner? I have registered kittens directly in a new owner's name when booked early but it's against GCCF rules not to hand over reg docs at the time of sale so I've never worked out how to do a transfer for them if the kitten is already registered and the timings don't work.


No I'm saying register them as I do at present and give them that certificate, then transfer them and they will get the new one turning up in due course.

(edit)
If something falls through at the last minute I still have the kitten in my name. Could actually do the transfer while the new owners are collecting the kitten so they are sure the details are correct.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Maybe people just research more over here, the most common questions I get are:

_are they registered? We're only interested in a registered kitten
they're neutered aren't they? We just want a pet_

Kittens are registered directly into the new owners names here, there are also different numbers/letters used for the 3 types of registration (pet only, show neuter, entire) so you can't just take a neuters reg and use it on a breeding cat.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Or as with me only people looking for registered kittens come to me. All my adds mention registered, neutered etc. so anyone asking those questions would have me on my guard.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Or as with me only people looking for registered kittens come to me. All my adds mention registered, neutered etc. so anyone asking those questions would have me on my guard.


I don't place ads, but nothing to be on guard about, just making sure the kittens come with what is standard.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I would guess around a third of the enquiries I receive specifically ask about registration. Of those only a small number will actually transfer the kitten into their name. Those where I have asked 'why?' who haven't bothered transferring the answer is always the same - we didn't see the point because we're not going to breed and we're not going to show.

That leaves a lot of people, in my experience at least, who either don't care or know nothing about registration and it leaves me feeling that all many people want is a pretty kitten, of their chosen breed and have no interest in "paperwork" - though ironically they are far more likely to ask "will I get a pedigree certificate?" or "a family tree thing". I would say that my kittens are priced towards the top end of what one might expect to pay and, clearly, given that the majority aren't terribly interested/know nothing about registration, they're not choosing me, as a breeder, or my kittens based on lower cost.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> I don't place ads, but nothing to be on guard about, just making sure the kittens come with what is standard.


I wish I didn't have to advertise but I do. If they haven't read the advert beyond 'kitten' I worry... However one kitten last year got a great home despite the initial contact being a text asking about the 'ginger' one!


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

A recent question to my Breed Club answers the original question of this thread quite nicely.

"We've been sold a kitten age 6 weeks. It wasn't from registered breeders as we wanted a house pet rather than breeding quality cat with papers and we never saw the parents or sibblings."

I think this just says it all


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> A recent question to my Breed Club answers the original question of this thread quite nicely.
> 
> "We've been sold a kitten age 6 weeks. It wasn't from registered breeders as we wanted a house pet rather than breeding quality cat with papers and we never saw the parents or sibblings."


Oh dear! 6 weeks is far too young and shame on them for not asking to see the mother! Hopefully it will be healthy but I have to say I don't hold out much hope


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Going off on a bit of a tangent here but wondering what to do about transferring my new kitten into my name. The problem is he's on the active and the breeder hopes to borrow him when the time comes for her breeding program. If I transfer him as mine will that cause any confusion? He'll be at closed stud.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Hmmm. Not a situation I personally like. Looking after a stud isn't for a novice or the faint-hearted. It strikes me she will get the benefit and you will get the hard work.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Hmmm. Not a situation I personally like. Looking after a stud isn't for a novice or the faint-hearted. It strikes me she will get the benefit and you will get the hard work.


OS I know how it might sound but the breeder is a close friend of mine and nothing is set in stone. It all depends on how it goes. If I'm not happy I will neuter him.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It won't cause problems, no. You'll just have to give her a mating certificate to say the mating has taken place. If she registers her litters online, I understand the process is much easier.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

carly87 said:


> It won't cause problems, no. You'll just have to give her a mating certificate to say the mating has taken place. If she registers her litters online, I understand the process is much easier.


Thanks carly, that's the thing she can do all that as she's got the queen. 
Can't think of him being a stud at the moment, he's so little and I've got to walk around looking at my feet!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I hope for your sake that it stays that way for a very, very long time!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Ask the breeder what she wants to do, I'd have thought that conversation would have already happened.
Most I know would co-own the boy in such a situation.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> Ask the breeder what she wants to do, I'd have thought that conversation would have already happened.
> Most I know would co-own the boy in such a situation.


Oh no he's all mine  Haven't even got the paperwork yet! You breeders are busy people I know. nothing set in stone. He's on the active now so she doesn't have to change him IF we do this.

Thanks for All your advice, I'll keep you updated


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Haven't even got the paperwork yet! You breeders are busy people I know


I think you need to get this sorted out. You have the kitten but not the paperwork? It's a situation that would set the alarm bells ringing in most cases. I understand the breeder is a friend of yours but in my experience these arrangements are the quickest way to end a friendship unless everything is completely sorted and agreed between the parties.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

carly87 said:


> It won't cause problems, no. You'll just have to give her a mating certificate to say the mating has taken place. If she registers her litters online, I understand the process is much easier.


You get 'randomly' asked to produce the mating certificate if you register online. I've been 'randomly' asked both times.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

havoc said:


> I think you need to get this sorted out. You have the kitten but not the paperwork? It's a situation that would set the alarm bells ringing in most cases. I understand the breeder is a friend of yours but in my experience these arrangements are the quickest way to end a friendship unless everything is completely sorted and agreed between the parties.


Oh my goodness I saw the kitten born! There is no doubt his parentage. The breeder had genuine computer problems. I witnessed those myself too when we were trying to look for kitten photos on Her pc and we couldn't find them as the drive corrupted. The poor lady now had to buy a new PC and the computer place couldn't transfer all the pedal so now she can't print one out! She's only just registered the kittens online as she couldn't decide which one to keep and what their names should be. So that is reason for no paperwork.

I will make sure everyone is happy with the future plans.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Now your friend has a working PC again she needs to learn about backups. I would be horrified if I lost all my data - thousands of photos, thousands of cats in Breeder's Assistant.

However it sounds like the whole arrangement is rather loose, which is what can cause problems. She wants to use him as a stud - for how long? When can you get him snipped and bring him into the house? If he sprays will you have to provide a stud house or will he live with your friend? What if he doesn't stop spraying once he is neutered? I'm sure there are more loose ends to tie up but those are the ones that sprang to mind.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Now your friend has a working PC again she needs to learn about backups. I would be horrified if I lost all my data - thousands of photos, thousands of cats in Breeder's Assistant.
> 
> However it sounds like the whole arrangement is rather loose, which is what can cause problems. She wants to use him as a stud - for how long? When can you get him snipped and bring him into the house? If he sprays will you have to provide a stud house or will he live with your friend? What if he doesn't stop spraying once he is neutered? I'm sure there are more loose ends to tie up but those are the ones that sprang to mind.


Yes, she's not overly pleased about losing the pedigrees! There is a lot to consider. It will all be discussed when I get the paperwork


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> However it sounds like the whole arrangement is rather loose, which is what can cause problems.


^^^^^^^^ this.

I've seen long term friendships collapse in an instant. She decides she wants to use the boy you've taken and it isn't convenient to you or the boy starts spraying or becomes frustrated because he isn't used and you want to neuter him but she'd like you to just hang on until her girl next calls. It's enough to cause huge resentment and usually does.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

MollyMilo said:


> Yes, she's not overly pleased about losing the pedigrees! There is a lot to consider. It will all be discussed when I get the paperwork


Suggest that she looks into Dropbox. It's free, it will let her synchronise files across more than one PC.

I have almost 4,500 cats in my pedigree database - that's individual cats, for some of them I can trace back 10 generations for others I don't even have their parents. Losing that would be a disaster, so it lives in my Dropbox (which also lets me maintain it from the laptop and the desktop) and I back it up elsewhere as well.

Surely you can also start discussing the stud issues while waiting for the paperwork?


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> ^^^^^^^^ this.
> 
> I've seen long term friendships collapse in an instant. She decides she wants to use the boy you've taken and it isn't convenient to you or the boy starts spraying or becomes frustrated because he isn't used and you want to neuter him but she'd like you to just hang on until her girl next calls. It's enough to cause huge resentment and usually does.


I can only echo this 100 percent - several years ago I advised two close friends against sharing a horse - my advice fell on deaf ears - you would not believe how short the time frame was for them to seriously fall out, never to speak again. They had been friends for 20 years


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

I'd hate anything to happen to our friendship, where would I get my kitten fix 
I'll discuss everything next time I see her, probably a week or so. Oh and suggest drop box! 

Does anyone here run breeders assistant on a Mac? She really wanted one of them but had no idea how to transfer the files. Would drop box have worked?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

MollyMilo said:


> <snip>
> 
> Does anyone here run breeders assistant on a Mac? She really wanted one of them but had no idea how to transfer the files. Would drop box have worked?


What I do is have the data files are in a folder in my Dropbox, and I can access them from my laptop and my desktop. It synchronises changes to the master copy in the cloud whenever I save the database, from either PC. I could download to another PC if I signed in using a browser.

Also according to the BA website, it needs Parallels or similar on the Mac as it's a Windows only program.



> Mac: Breeders Assistant is a Windows application and as such it does not run directly on a Mac. However, if your Mac has a Windows environment such as that provided by 'Parallels' (or similar products) then you can run it on your Mac and we are aware of many of our customers who do this successfully.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

BTW is this a Siamese or Oriental breeder? The cats in my database are all Oriental & Siamese, I'm willing to send her exported pedigrees for her cats though not all 4,500.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> What I do is have the data files are in a folder in my Dropbox, and I can access them from my laptop and my desktop. It synchronises changes to the master copy in the cloud whenever I save the database, from either PC. I could download to another PC if I signed in using a browser.
> 
> Also according to the BA website, it needs Parallels or similar on the Mac as it's a Windows only program.


Wow that does sound complex, Explains why she went with a pc in the End!!

Thanks for the offer of your files OS but she has friends/ other breeders with the same ped Files so I think she'll be ok


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