# Ragdoll Kitten Colours



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Good Morning,

I have a female chocolate mitted lynx ragdoll and a male blue colourpoint who have recently had kittens. Does anyone know what colours the babies could possibly be? 

Thankyou


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Sm9090 said:


> Good Morning,
> 
> I have a female chocolate mitted lynx ragdoll and a male blue colourpoint who have recently had kittens. Does anyone know what colours the babies could possibly be?
> 
> Thankyou


You need to know what colours are carried by the parents to be able to answer this question. If neither carry anything, they'll all be seal, some may be seal tabby.


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Hi. Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure what the parents carry


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

These are the kittens colours at the moment


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Sm9090 said:


> Hi. Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure what the parents carry


If you've not tested them, your mentor should easily explain their pedigrees and what they likely carry.

Hopefully you have tested for HCM, PKD.


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

I do not have a mentor and haven't had one since about 10 years ago!
All my cats are registered and tested, I have never had some of the colours of this litter before and was simply looking for some help but thanks for your reply


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Sm9090 said:


> Hi. Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure what the parents carry


Unless there is absolute certainty of knowing what they carry (for example because one of their parents was dilute or chocolate), I always colour test my breeding cats at the same time as doing the genetic health tests. This allows me to plan better matings and also to know what colours could crop up in the offspring of any particular mating.

At least two of those kittens look to be Seal (one tabby), the other two look paler but it is very hard to judge kitten colours from off the cuff photos as differences in white balance and exposure can make a massive difference to the apparent colour of the animals being photographed.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Sm9090 said:


> I do not have a mentor and haven't had one since about 10 years ago!
> All my cats are registered and tested, I have never had some of the colours of this litter before and was simply looking for some help but thanks for your reply


I don't know if you are in the UK but if your health test results are from Langford in the last two years, you can request further tests without sending another swab. I suggest you test the boy for chocolate and the girl for dilute. Presumably you will be able to tell the tabbies in due course without testing for agouti.


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Yes they are from Langfords, thankyou for your advice.


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

From what I can see I would say the first kitten is either seal or chocolate tabby, second looks seal, third looks like it might be tabby of some description but i say this very tentatively as its very difficult to tell, and fourth looks to be blue which suggests that mum carries the dilute,although as has been said before it's impossible to tell at this age for sure without genetics and even more difficult from photos. Was one of the maternal grandparents blue or lilac?

Also is mum tortie or are the unusual nose markings on kittens 2 and 3 a result of white spotting extending past the chin? Kitten 2 in particular looks to have more of a bicolour pattern as the mitts on the front paws look like they cover the whole leg

As im sure you know, the colours and patterns will become clearer in the next few weeks


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Mum carries dilute she is a chocolate lynx mitted & dad a blue colourpoint.
It's kittens 2 and 3 that I haven't had before as in the nose markings, previous litter resulted in chocolate/seal lynx and blue colourpoint.


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

If the previous litter produced those colours it means that mums genotype is bbDd and dads is Bbdd, meaning kittens can be seal chocolate blue or lilac with or without tabby pattern. The blaze could explain where these unusual nose markings are coming from. it looks like the white from the mitts has extended past the chin and over the noses giving more of a bicolour pattern, although genetically they would be high/mid-high mitted, not bicolour. I wouldn't normally expect this when breeding a mitted with a solid colourpoint so the only explanation i can think of is that the blaze on the nose has caused more white spotting on the kittens, as the genetics which cause the blaze in ragdolls are not well understood yet


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Yes they do look like bi colour but obviously I know that's impossible so you are probably correct and has to be something to do with the blaze on mum. Both kittens have the same nose markings I've just never had this before on my kittens with these colour parents. Thanks for your replies


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Do you think it could be possible mum is a high mitted lynx?


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

Sm9090 said:


> Do you think it could be possible mum is a high mitted lynx?


Can we see a pic of her? And is there defo no white on dad?


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

No white on dad fully blue colourpoint


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sm9090 said:


> Yes they are from Langfords, thankyou for your advice.


And hopefully you belong to a club in their discount scheme: https://www.langfordvets.co.uk/media/1363/breed-club-list-071118.pdf


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sm9090 said:


> No white on dad fully blue colourpoint


From: GENETICS COLOURS AND PATTERNS | prbcc-website

50% mitted, 50% colourpoint. On average of course.


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

My photo of her isn't uploading for some reason.

Dads parents are lilac colourpoint & blue colourpoint 

Mum's parents are chocolate point mitted & blue lynx mitted


----------



## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

In that case, since the stud carries chocolate, and the queen carries dilute, kittens could be seal/blue or chocolate/lilac, and about half will be lynx and/or mitted, as @Lunarags has already mentioned :>


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

Sm9090 said:


> My photo of her isn't uploading for some reason.
> 
> Dads parents are lilac colourpoint & blue colourpoint
> 
> Mum's parents are chocolate point mitted & blue lynx mitted


Hmm the white is obviously all coming from mum...how unusual...


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

I took her on from someone who was retiring from breeding, I usually only keep ones I have bred myself and I only have colourpoint/mitted adults. I dont have alot of experience with the lynx markings etc..
I'm beginning to wonder if shes been registered as the wrong colour


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

Sm9090 said:


> I took her on from someone who was retiring from breeding, I usually only keep ones I have bred myself and I only have colourpoint/mitted adults. I dont have alot of experience with the lynx markings etc..
> I'm beginning to wonder if shes been registered as the wrong colour


As in shes not chocolate or not mitted tabby? Tabby marking is fairly predictable as they are controlled by the agouti gene which is a single gene A, and is dominant to the non-agouti (solid colour) gene a, so a tabby cat can carry solid colouring, which your girl must do if she has had solid colourpointed kittens in the past so her agouti genotype is Aa. Sorry if im telling you things you already know, i know you have been breeding for years already xxx


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

.


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

Ahhhh she has more white spotting than is ideal for a mitted girl, which explains where all these white noses are coming from! Thinking shes true bicolour as she looks to be producing only bicolour and colourpoint kittens? (lovely type btw)


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

I breed BSH and then went into ragdolls around 4 years ago. She is such a lovely girl. I took her on as I loved her colour. I think she is high mitted as now when I look at her I see her mittens are higher than usual. It just threw me off with the kittens nose markings and it not happening last litter. Thanks for your responses I appreciate it.
So now I need to figure out what that classes the kittens as. They look like bi colour but obviously aren't or could they be If shes registered wrong?


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Sm9090 said:


> I breed BSH and then went into ragdolls around 4 years ago. She is such a lovely girl. I took her on as I loved her colour. I think she is high mitted as now when I look at her I see her mittens are higher than usual. It just threw me off with the kittens nose markings and it not happening last litter. Thanks for your responses I appreciate it.
> So now I need to figure out what that classes the kittens as because they look like bi colour but obviously aren't


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

My understanding of white spotting is not as complete as others on the forum so perhaps someone else who is more familiar with it and how it works might be able to confirm if im right here, but i believe that if she was high mitted and was bred to a colourpoint she would produce all mitted kittens?


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Ahhh this is confusing perhaps I will stick to breeding the colourpoints in future but thankyou


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

Sm9090 said:


> Ahhh this is confusing perhaps I will stick to breeding the colourpoints in future but thankyou


Haha yes white spotting is so hard to get right from what ive read. i only breed with colourpoints but have done my own research to try and understand all the ragdoll patterns so i dont speak from experience on this case unfortunately, but my understanding is that white spotting comes in different levels and ragdolls can have level 2 or 4 on each gene. If your girl is true bicolour her genotype is S4s for spotting, and dads is definitely ss so kittens could be S4s (true bicolour) or ss(colourpoint). If she was high mitted she would have genotype S2S2 meaning kittens with ss dad would all be S2s ie all normal ragdoll mitting, but dont quote me on that haha. Ive also read that a lot of breeders breed their mitted girls to plain colourpoints to see what colours the kittens end up as that is the best way to figure out their level of spotting. I think if you bred your girl to a mitted stud she could have S4S2 (mid high white) S4s (true bicolour) sS2 (mitted) and ss (colourpoint), so then you could keep a mitted girl if she produces one to breed with in the future. If yoy did that, and bred the mitted girl to a mitted stud she can have colourpoint, mitted and high mitteds and a mitted bred to a colourpoint can have mitteds and colourpoints.


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Lunarags said:


> Haha yes white spotting is so hard to get right from what ive read. i only breed with colourpoints but have done my own research to try and understand all the ragdoll patterns so i dont speak from experience on this case unfortunately, but my understanding is that white spotting comes in different levels and ragdolls can have level 2 or 4 on each gene. If your girl is true bicolour her genotype is S4s for spotting, and dads is definitely ss so kittens could be S4s (true bicolour) or ss(colourpoint). If she was high mitted she would have genotype S2S2 meaning kittens with ss dad would all be S2s ie all normal ragdoll mitting


Ahh I see that makes sense. Is it possible to have a bi colour lynx? She's registered as RAG B 04 21.


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

Yes this is possible


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

Sm9090 said:


> that makes sense


Wait it does? Wow....


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lunarags said:


> Hmm the white is obviously all coming from mum...how unusual...


In what way is it unusual?


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> In what way is it unusual?


If mum had normal mitting it would have been unusual as the kittens have so much white


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lunarags said:


> If mum had normal mitting it would have been unusual as the kittens have so much white


The theory doesn't always hold - that a cat with more white spotting is WsWs, one with less is wsws. Polygenes must be involved.

An interesting link about dominant white / white spotting:

Dominant White & White Spotting | Veterinary Genetics Laboratory (ucdavis.edu)

Also:

"*Gloves (Birman - White Feet)*
Birman cats have clearly defined white feet ("gloves") as part of their breed standard. This characteristic gloving is caused by a variant in the KIT gene and is inherited as an autosomal recessive trait."

The KIT gene is the one involved in white spotting & dominant white:

"Dominant white (DW) and white spotting (Ws) are found across many breeds of cats and result from the insertion of a common "feline endogenous retrovirus" in the _KIT_ gene. A full 7125bp insertion results in white spotting while a partial insertion results in dominant white.
...
The pattern of white spotting does not correlate with one or two copies and the gene/genes controlling the pattern of white spotting remain unknown. Additionally, not all white spots or patterns result from these alleles as other genes can also have mutations that result in depigmentation phenotypes."


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> The theory doesn't always hold - that a cat with more white spotting is WsWs, one with less is wsws. Polygenes must be involved.
> 
> An interesting link about dominant white / white spotting:
> 
> ...


It might not always hold, but with ragdolls it generally does, hence why I said unusual. I did not say impossible. I'm sure it can happen. As I said in my post white spotting is complex and not fully understood.

I believe that the theory of birman gloving being a recessive gene has been disproven and it is now considered to be grade 1 spotting which has simply been very well controlled by inbreeding but i could be wrong on this as i didnt look much into it
Take a look at this, it explains white spotting in ragdolls as it is currently understood quite well http://rfci.org/controlling-white/


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Wikipedia shows the Birman gloving as well. It's recessive, a cat has to have 2 copies to have Birman gloving.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_coat_genetics#White_spotting_and_epistatic_white

Also:

https://basepaws.com/blogs/news/cat-coat-genetics


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

Fair enough thanks for that, I obviously misunderstood what I read xx


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lunarags said:


> It might not always hold, but with ragdolls it generally does, hence why I said unusual. I did not say impossible. I'm sure it can happen. As I said in my post white spotting is complex and not fully understood.
> 
> I believe that the theory of birman gloving being a recessive gene has been disproven and it is now considered to be grade 1 spotting which has simply been very well controlled by inbreeding but i could be wrong on this as i didnt look much into it
> Take a look at this, it explains white spotting in ragdolls as it is currently understood quite well http://rfci.org/controlling-white/


She describes a theory but OSH bicolour breeders have plenty of experience which contradicts this theory.


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> She describes a theory but OSH bicolour breeders have plenty of experience which contradicts this theory.


Ohh, it seems to be the general theory from ragdoll breeders but maybe we are all doing it all wrong haha

Im curious, if birmans need 2 copies of gloving to having gloving phenotype, why bother to test them? If they dont have gloves then they arent purebred, whether they carry the gloving gene or not...


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Langford now do a test for Birman gloving which is recessive but they have this to say about ragdolls.

*About the Pattern*
A mutation in the KIT gene causes Birman cats to have clearly define white feet (gloves). Two copies of the mutation, one from each parent, are required for Birman cats to be gloved. Birman cats should all have two copies of the mutation since gloving is part of the breed standard; this can be confirmed by the genetic test. The mutation is also found in other breeds of cat, especially the Ragdoll, but work has shown that most mitted Ragdolls do not have two copies of the Birman gloves mutation, which indicates there are other mutations causing mitting/gloving yet to be discovered.


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

QOTN said:


> most mitted Ragdolls do not have two copies of the Birman gloves mutation, which indicates there are other mutations causing mitting/gloving yet to be discovered


And perhaps the grading theory is describing different common mutations rather than grades as such...


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lunarags said:


> And perhaps the grading theory is describing different common mutations rather than grades as such...


Maybe, or maybe it's describing polygenes that affect the amount of white spotting. Or maybe both.


----------



## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

And then there is my blue cream with white from two solid parents ........ who is negative for any known mutation in the KIT gene including Birman gloving


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lillytheunicorn said:


> And then there is my blue cream with white from two solid parents ........ who is negative for any known mutation in the KIT gene including Birman gloving


Now that *is* interesting. A Di Novo mutation maybe.


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

lillytheunicorn said:


> And then there is my blue cream with white from two solid parents ........ who is negative for any known mutation in the KIT gene including Birman gloving


Um...ok now im stuck.... :Hilarious

I was literally reading about white spotting 2 days ago and thought i pretty much understood. Back to the drawing board for me haha


----------



## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Now that *is* interesting. A Di Novo mutation maybe.


It's genetic; there are other solid matings who throw kittens with odd white patches through her lineage. She has been looked at by multiple judges from FIFe, GCCF & WCF who have all said with white. However she is registered wrong with GCCF as she can't be with white from the mating, so her show career was very short.
I mated her to an agouti male and we got a kitten with a white belly patch that hasn't disappeared as she has got older.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

lillytheunicorn said:


> It's genetic; there are other solid matings who throw kittens with odd white patches through her lineage. She has been looked at by multiple judges from FIFe, GCCF & WCF who have all said with white. However she is registered wrong with GCCF as she can't be with white from the mating, so her show career was very short.
> I mated her to an agouti male and we got a kitten with a white belly patch that hasn't disappeared as she has got older.


That is very interesting. In self cats we sometimes get the minor white spotting gene which is distinguished by small clusters of white hairs in the armpits, bikini area, locket and a belly spot. None of mine ever had a belly spot but I know some Siamese do. A couple of my orientals just seemed to have longer white hairs in the other areas, not particularly noticeable but just enough to prevent any certificates unless removed by 'grooming' which is what the judges advise. That is always considered to be recessive because it had no apparent relation to parentage but I suppose could be impenetrance as an alternative explanation.

How big were the white patches and are they dense and sound?


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Lunarags said:


> Im curious, if birmans need 2 copies of gloving to having gloving phenotype, why bother to test them? If they dont have gloves then they arent purebred, whether they carry the gloving gene or not...


Birman gloving is definitely resessive, but the amount of white displayed varies from cat to cat, some having barely any others having white up to their armpits. Cats with either of these extremes of course are petted as they do not meet the standard. Breeding Birmans with show markings is incredibly difficult and as they tend to lean towards low white. Producing kittens with almost no white isn't that uncommon ... it's nearly always the one with the best type too, ruddy annoying!!
I don't actually know any birman breeder who tests for gloving.


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

Tigermoon said:


> it's nearly always the one with the best type too, ruddy annoying


Always the way haha


----------



## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

QOTN said:


> . How big were the white patches and are they dense and sound?

















The first photo is from when she was 4 months old the other one when she was pregnant at a year old.
The white triangle on her chest is very white, above it is a cream smoke patch. She didn't appear to be a smoke initially but by 15 months she was actually a smoke. When she got her first proper adult coat in. You can still distinguish the white from the cream smoke patches.

She had a small white patch on her tummy, the lighter coloured area between the 'bikini' top and bottom is cream. She has a further locket on her chest that is white.

her blue daughter just has a 10p sized white patch in her tummy, that isn't as dense as her mother's white patches


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

So it looks like there is

2 blue mitted
2 seal bi colour
1 chocolate lynx (not mitted)

Still haven't worked out how or why this has happened. Only thing I know for sure is Mum doesn't have normal mitting.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sm9090 said:


> So it looks like there is
> 
> 2 blue colourpoint mitted
> 2 seal bi colour
> ...


Mum looks midway between mitted & bicolour, and must have just one white spotting gene to produce a pointed kitten. However it shows that one theory behind how white spotting works is wrong. You do, sometimes, get a kitten with plenty of white where the kitten can only have one copy of Ws, and you can also get a kitten with not much white. There also seem to be some kittens with 'bikini' white marks where the parents don't have any white. The last I heard was that these are thought to be because the colour didn't migrate down from the neural crest fully and not to be inherited. That might of course have changed by now.

*possibly* in some lines of Ragdolls genes around Ws that control the spotting are very well controlled and the outcome is more predictable. I don't think there are additional versions of Ws, unless they are on a completely different locus - Ws is on the KIT gene and other variations would have been spotted. )). Birman gloving is recessive but on the same gene.

https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/test/dominant-white-cat
https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/panel/cat-coat-color-white-gloves-birmans


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> Mum looks midway between mitted & bicolour, and must have just one white spotting gene to produce a pointed kitten. However it shows that one theory behind how white spotting works is wrong. You do, sometimes, get a kitten with plenty of white where the kitten can only have one copy of Ws, and you can also get a kitten with not much white. There also seem to be some kittens with 'bikini' white marks where the parents don't have any white. The last I heard was that these are thought to be because the colour didn't migrate down from the neural crest fully and not to be inherited. That might of course have changed by now.
> 
> *possibly* in some lines of Ragdolls genes around Ws that control the spotting are very well controlled and the outcome is more predictable. I don't think there are additional versions of Ws, unless they are on a completely different locus - Ws is on the KIT gene and other variations would have been spotted. )). Birman gloving is recessive but on the same gene.
> 
> ...


Excellent information. Thankyou!


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

White spotting in ragdolls is thought to be controlled by the same gene as it is in other breeds. I've done some further research over the last couple of days and found that the grading system is the best way its understood at the moment, but it is believed that unknown modifiers also act on the white spotting gene which could explain why sometimes kittens have more white spotting than would be expected by the grading system. It also explains why white spotting is so difficult to control - not many breeds try to control white spotting like we do with ragdolls. Another example is the turkish van. After seeing mum and kittens i think she is bicolour, not mitted, which explains the bicolour kittens when bred to a colourpoint, and as @OrientalSlave said, the kittens suggest she is heterozygous for white spotting.


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Lunarags said:


> White spotting in ragdolls is thought to be controlled by the same gene as it is in other breeds. I've done some further research over the last couple of days and found that the grading system is the best way its understood at the moment, but it is believed that unknown modifiers also act on the white spotting gene which could explain why sometimes kittens have more white spotting than would be expected by the grading system. It also explains why white spotting is so difficult to control - not many breeds try to control white spotting like we do with ragdolls. Another example is the turkish van. After seeing mum and kittens i think she is bicolour, not mitted, which explains the bicolour kittens when bred to a colourpoint, and as @OrientalSlave said, the kittens suggest she is heterozygous for white spotting.


Great help thankyou! 
So if she is in fact bi colour and she is registered as chocolate lynx mitted and her parents are registered both mitted (no bi colour in the history) does this mean this is all wrong. Last thing I want to do is sell kittens that aren't registered correctly? 
I have decided to have her spayed after this litter as it seems to be more complicated then I was anticipating and stick with my others.


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

If both parents were mitted then she would be high mitted (S2S2) and not bicolour, however when bred to a colourpoint i cant see how she could consistently produce kittens with bicolour markings...i suspect one of her parents had markings similar to her, where they LOOKED more like high mitted, but were genetically bicoloured. However without known genetic testing for these it really is impossible to know for sure. Either way she is a beautiful girl


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Lunarags said:


> If both parents were mitted then she would be high mitted (S2S2) and not bicolour, however when bred to a colourpoint i cant see how she could consistently produce kittens with bicolour markings...i suspect one of her parents had markings similar to her, where they LOOKED more like high mitted, but were genetically bicoloured. However without known genetic testing for these it really is impossible to know for sure. Either way she is a beautiful girl


Thankyou you have been a great help!


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sm9090 said:


> Great help thankyou!
> So if she is in fact bi colour and she is registered as chocolate lynx mitted and her parents are registered both mitted (no bi colour in the history) does this mean this is all wrong. Last thing I want to do is sell kittens that aren't registered correctly?
> I have decided to have her spayed after this litter as it seems to be more complicated then I was anticipating and stick with my others.


She is neither mitted or bicolour as her markings don't match either SoP. She has too much white for mitted and not enough for bicolour. Hopefully all your kittens are going to pet homes, so register each one as what they are closest to.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lunarags said:


> <snip>
> not many breeds try to control white spotting like we do with ragdolls.
> <snip>


The Birman does.


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> She is neither mitted or bicolour as her markings don't match either SoP. She has too much white for mitted and not enough for bicolour. Hopefully all your kittens are going to pet homes, so register each one as what they are closest to.


So what is she then? She has to be something.
None of my kittens are sold active I never have and never will unless for myself.


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> The Birman does.


But as we established birman gloving is different from spotting. I wasn't trying to list all breeds, just an example



Sm9090 said:


> So what is she then? She has to be something.


As a ragdoll she can only be either mitted or bicolour. I personally think she is bicolour with poor white markings I don't know what the gccf online system will let you register the babies as but i would sell them as bicolour as they more closely resemble bicolour markings (more so than mum). As they are only sold non active it doesn't really matter except if the new owners want to show, but im not sure the markings are good enough to show anyway


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Lunarags said:


> But as we established birman gloving is different from spotting. I wasn't trying to list all breeds, just an example
> 
> As a ragdoll she can only be either mitted or bicolour. I personally think she is bicolour with poor white markings I don't know what the gccf online system will let you register the babies as but i would sell them as bicolour as they more closely resemble bicolour markings (more so than mum). As they are only sold non active it doesn't really matter except if the new owners want to show, but im not sure the markings are good enough to show anyway


I agree!


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sm9090 said:


> So what is she then? She has to be something.
> None of my kittens are sold active I never have and never will unless for myself.


Genetically I suggest she is mitted, though she has more white than a mitted should. I say that as she clearly is heterozygous for White Spotting as she has kittens without white. She is a nice demonstration of the variable expression of Ws.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lunarags said:


> <snip>
> im not sure the markings are good enough to show anyway


GCCF withholding faults - the ones relating to the white markings:

11. Badly off-centred 'V' on face of Bi-colour cats 
12. White on the front paws extending beyond the angle formed by the paw and the leg in Mitted cats 
13. White on the back legs not reaching the level of the hock in Mitted cats 
14. Absence of a white chin in Mitted cats 
15. The white bib not extending from chest to tail in Mitted cats


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> GCCF withholding faults - the ones relating to the white markings:
> 
> 11. Badly off-centred 'V' on face of Bi-colour cats
> 12. White on the front paws extending beyond the angle formed by the paw and the leg in Mitted cats
> ...


Yes i know


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Just to throw this out there:
In Ragdolls a white blaze up the nasal bridge and onto the forehead, which is NOT associated with bicolour, has been around since their inception, and is a rare but (was) desired occurrence. It can come on any pattern ragdoll although it's likely to be well hidden on a bicolour of course. Resessive in nature it can appear without warning in kittens from pedigrees with no sign of it for generations. Is this what the OPs kittens have? Maybe.


----------



## Sm9090 (Apr 14, 2021)

Tigermoon said:


> Just to throw this out there:
> In Ragdolls a white blaze up the nasal bridge and onto the forehead, which is NOT associated with bicolour, has been around since their inception, and is a rare but (was) desired occurrence. It can come on any pattern ragdoll although it's likely to be well hidden on a bicolour of course. Resessive in nature it can appear without warning in kittens from pedigrees with no sign of it for generations. Is this what the OPs kittens have? Maybe.


I'm honestly not sure what I have or how it's happened.

By looking at them again today there are 
2 Blues with normal mitting 
1 chocolate lynx with no mitting

Then the 2 that are different one has bi colour marking and the mittens extend high to top of the legs front and back the other again has bi colour markings but it's mittens on front feet are normal mitting and back feet high


----------



## Lunarags (Jan 16, 2021)

I think i may have missed a message in here. I was under the impression that none of the kittens looked to have normal mitting, i thought they were all plain colourpoints or bicolour, but i think if some are colourpoint, some are mitted and some look bicolour she must be more on the mitted end of the spectrum than the bicolour end of the spectrum. Normally in ragdolls you wouldnt call her 'high mitted' if she is heterozygous for white spotting, so im honestly not sure what you should officially class her as at this point. My opinion is that she must be technically mitted if shes producing kittens with normal mitting, but that there are clearly a number of other genetic factors, possibly modifiers, having a significant effect on the amount of white spotting coming out in the kittens. I would sell them as what they look most like on non-active, keep one with the best mitts if you choose to keep a girl, and get mum spayed as she seems to be producing kittens with VERY inconsistent mitting. Then if you keep a mitted girl, breed her to a colourpoint for her first litter to get an idea of her levels of white spotting so you can choose a stud who will produce kittens with better mitting patterns for her next litter(s)


----------



## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

As you say the kittens are all off to pet homes relatively their colour does not matter. Pick the nearest mitted/bicolour to their colouring. The fact they don't meet the breed standard for their colour is why they are off to pet homes.

You mentioned the dam and what to do with her earlier? Does she have good type excluding her mitting? Are her lines special / different to your others?

Although I don't breed Ragdolls but a breed where there aren't many points for colour (5), personally if I answered yes to the above then I would potentially perserve with the dam.

Have you read the GCCF ragdoll breeding policy ?https://www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/Ragdoll.BP.pdf

There is a very interesting chart on page 9 and mating to a colourpoint is what they suggest to identify the genotype of a Ragdoll.

If you do have mitted and bicolours in the litter it would suggest the dam is a mid high white genetically. The chart will also help you identify a suitable coloured sire to mate from her. You would want to pick the best example you can if you want pick a mitted or bicolour and make sure the studs sire is also a good example of the colouring.

I was told to use the sire of a cat I like and that's how I got my multiple BIS winning cat. I used the sire of a cat I loved very much who was nominated at the world show.


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Sm9090 said:


> I'm honestly not sure what I have or how it's happened.
> 
> By looking at them again today there are
> 2 Blues with normal mitting
> ...


Going by the chart linked above and the photos of the kittens and dam, they are mitted with nasal blazes as is their mother. She is high mitted, she is not bicolour imo. Whether you continue to breed fron such a girl depends on your intentions. Sometimes good type but off marked cats can be used to push a particularly interesting pedigree forward, but you do need to be rigorous in your assessment of her kittens when doing this. If she produces too many off marked kittens, I'd neuter and seek a new queen. Personally I don't think that producing badly marked kittens is really acceptable just because you are only intending to produce pets, you should always aim to meet the SOP. We all produce off marked kittens from time to time when we are dealing with white spotting in its many forms, however we shouldn't set out to do so.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lillytheunicorn said:


> <snip>
> Have you read the GCCF ragdoll breeding policy ?https://www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/Ragdoll.BP.pdf
> <snip>


What fascinates me is that Roy Robinson promulgated a theory of many versions of white spotting (including S2 & S4) many years ago, before DNA testing. The first edition of his Genetics for Cat Breeders was published in 1971, the 4th edition (after his death) in 1999 which "has been updated by a team of specialists to reflect a decade of changes and advances in genetic research".

However so far there is no sign that I know of of variations on the Ws gene. Yes there is W and wg on the same locus (KIT), personally I think if the variations in Ws that Robinson suggested really existed the various studies done over the past 20 years might have found them? Yet every Ragdoll pattern theory I've read relies on Robinson. It also irks me that none of them have the date they were written - the breed policy is from 2012 and DNA testing has come a long way in the intervening 9 years

In bicolour OSH it's well known that a low white cat sometimes has a high white kitten even when mated to a no-white cat, and vice versa - a high white cat can have a low white kitten despite that high white cat having a no-white parent e.g. must be heterozygous for Ws.


----------



## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> In bicolour OSH it's well known that a low white cat sometimes has a high white kitten even when mated to a no-white cat, and vice versa - a high white cat can have a low white kitten despite that high white cat having a no-white parent e.g. must be heterozygous for Ws.


We see on a relatively frequent basis low white cats producing high white kittens in NFO but as we do not really breed for colour we aren't careful with our white markings.

That's very interesting about the S2/S4 theory and how the theory they are still using is from 1971. I honestly thought they would have kept it up to date. I have the 4th edition of his book, I haven't ever really read the section on Ws. I thought it was a combo of the Ws & Wg that was giving the ragdoll their patterning.

I presume there is either poly genes or incomplete penetrance at work with the amount of white spotting.

The Cullykan Persians are fascinating, I can't remember which stud produces clones but he produces identical van offspring, you know the prefix with their cats a mile off.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lillytheunicorn said:


> We see on a relatively frequent basis low white cats producing high white kittens in NFO but as we do not really breed for colour we aren't careful with our white markings.
> 
> That's very interesting about the S2/S4 theory and how the theory they are still using is from 1971. I honestly thought they would have kept it up to date. I have the 4th edition of his book, I haven't ever really read the section on Ws. I thought it was a combo of the Ws & Wg that was giving the ragdoll their patterning.
> 
> ...


I don't know when he produced the theory, but a considerable time ago. Your NGO experience matches the OSH experience.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I have Roy Robinson's second edition published in 1977. I have just read the white spotting section for the first time since I bought the book in about 1979. It has not been a priority I am afraid other than to try to avoid it at all costs.

He states that white spotting seems to be dominant although it can appear on occasions in non-white cats. He then cites a study by Kuhn and Kroning which suggests an incompletely dominant gene and an overlapping of expression between the heterozygous and homozygous types.

The large amount of variation may be due to individual eccentricities of development but also polygenes. He says selective breeding may be able to stabilise the amount of white even though the expression is so random. He does wonder if there is more than one gene responsible.

He also mentions what I have always known as the minor white spotting gene and suggests a combination of the two may produce different results. He suspects the latter gene of incomplete dominance which is something I have always wondered.

It is interesting that although DNA testing has made some advances on these suggestions, there is very little more clarity about the huge variation in expression of white spotting.



Apologies to Roy Robinson and anybody reading the above. He suspected the minor white spotting gene of impenetrance not incomplete dominance. I am not very alert today.


----------



## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I might have to go dug out my 4th edition and see what it says about Ws, if I remember rightly it still refers to amber as the x-colours.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I have Roy Robinson's second edition published in 1977. I have just read the white spotting section for the first time since I bought the book in about 1979. It has not been a priority I am afraid other than to try to avoid it at all costs.
> 
> He states that white spotting seems to be dominant although it can appear on occasions in non-white cats. He then cites a study by Kuhn and Kroning which suggests an incompletely dominant gene and an overlapping of expression between the heterozygous and homozygous types.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the trouble to look this up and precis it. Will be interested in the 4th version.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> Thanks for taking the trouble to look this up and precis it. Will be interested in the 4th version.


I ought to have added the reference to white and tortie but since it is not relevant to this thread I thought I would wait until my precis had some chance of being intelligible. I think the theory as to why torties with white have blotched patches and others tend to have mingling may have bearing on white in general.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I ought to have added the reference to white and tortie but since it is not relevant to this thread I thought I would wait until my precis had some chance of being intelligible. I think the theory as to why torties with white have blotched patches and others tend to have mingling may have bearing on white in general.


As far as I know the white spotting affects the point at which X-Inactivation occurs.


----------

