# Dogmatic disaster



## smudgebiscuit (Jan 25, 2011)

Hi all,

A few weeks ago we bought a Dogmatic headcollar for Molly as she has defeated every other training aid for pully dogs....at 1st it was a miracle & i could walk her easily-now she has learnt to pull on it & is constantly fighting to get it off,then yesterday she pulled our neighbour dog walker over & she has sprained her wrist & grazed her knee. We do heel work at puppy class-where she is really good-but at home she just pulls no matter what. The Dogmatic allowed me to walk her better-but it's not teaching her not to pull....tried the 'every time she pulls stop technique' but after nearly 4 months she just isn't getting it-even when we tried her on normal neck collar & she's rearing up & half chocking on it she doesn't stop pulling. I feel terrible about the accident with our neighbour-she's ok about it & just said it's one of those things but really do need to nip this in the bud. Thinking of trying to find a trainer to help???


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

smudgebiscuit said:


> Hi all,
> 
> A few weeks ago we bought a Dogmatic headcollar for Molly as she has defeated every other training aid for pully dogs....at 1st it was a miracle & i could walk her easily-now she has learnt to pull on it & is constantly fighting to get it off,then yesterday she pulled our neighbour dog walker over & she has sprained her wrist & grazed her knee. We do heel work at puppy class-where she is really good-but at home she just pulls no matter what. The Dogmatic allowed me to walk her better-but it's not teaching her not to pull....tried the 'every time she pulls stop technique' but after nearly 4 months she just isn't getting it-even when we tried her on normal neck collar & she's rearing up & half chocking on it she doesn't stop pulling. I feel terrible about the accident with our neighbour-she's ok about it & just said it's one of those things but really do need to nip this in the bud. Thinking of trying to find a trainer to help???


Have you tried a Canny Collar - when Henry used to pull badly (he still does a bit, but only if we're going to the fields or woods!), this was the only one I had success with. Haven't got it now as he outgrew the size and my friend uses it for her dog, but she thinks it really helps, too. There again, it sounds as though you've already tried most things...... Claire


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Have you tried the Cannie collar? I found that better than the dogmatic or halti ones but we use the Mekuti Balance harness now :thumbup: after trying all sorts of other 5min wonders  its made a big difference with these two  or a clicker may help 

Glad your neighbour is ok about it


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## smudgebiscuit (Jan 25, 2011)

yeah have tried canny collar-she's wonderful on it during puppy classes but terrible when at home. she such a lovely dog & pretty good at other things-just can't seem to crack this pulling which is making for some miserable walks for all of us & an accident with our wonderful neighbour


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

Can honestly say I have tried (over the years) perhaps most of the head collars that have come onto the market!
PErsonally I get the best results with a straight forward slip lead (gun train lead) Just took me over thirty years to learn HOW to use it to correctly!

OF the head collars the one I perhaps had the most sucess with was the K9 bridle

DT


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

K9 bridle all the way, we have these and they are really good :thumbup:


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## beltabout (Dec 11, 2010)

Okay so the dog walks to heel in puppy classes. But will not when anywhere else.

So the dog knows what to do.

So what is different?

The end product is possibly more rewarding, so the puppy may associate the lead with a walk.
Your interaction is different.

So change these, don't just use the lead for going on a walk. Use it during the day for no high reward reason, put the lead on and do some sit stay recall work. Or just walk around the house. Do some heel drills in the garden a pup does not need a run in the park every day if they are given some thing to do in the garden.

I do not know how the puppy classes are teaching you, so please feel free to disregard, I use a slip lead (gun dog type, never a harness or halti type) An I just amble around going nowhere, but I make the dog go with me when it pulls I stop, no talking when it relaxes I walk on, I always put the dog on one side and keep it there, I turn into the dog this means he has to look at me as if he does not i will bump him or tread on him. This keeps him slightly behind my knee.

There is a video that is similar to my method here. YouTube - kirkbournegundogs's Channel

If it is your interaction you will have to identify what this is and make your own changes sometimes having someone come and watch you will help you to spot this.

I have people bring their dogs who have pulled for years and I can get them walking with me at heel in a really short time both on and off the lead, however other people really struggle with this and when the dog goes back to them they immediately start to pull again, this shows me it is all about how they are handled so often it is about the person and not the dog.

Also practice this in different places as dog get used to behaving a certain way in a certain place and then revert back in new and unusual places.

Good luck

Nick


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

beltabout said:


> Okay so the dog walks to heel in puppy classes. But will not when anywhere else.
> 
> So the dog knows what to do.
> 
> ...


Loved the clip! It were a very young gundog trainer by the name of Charlotte that taught me how to use the slip lead correctly (using two hands instead of one) That young trainer taught me more in a couple of lessons then ALL of the other trainers put together!

Maybe you could do another clip for PF with words - how to teach you dog to walk to heel in one easy lesson! because I can vouch with correct use thats all it does take!
DT

can I ask where you were training in that clip please?


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## SDPetcare (Jul 25, 2010)

Another vote here for the K9 bridle, or a balance type harness with a double ended lead. I use one of the fleece harness with front rings and a double ended lead on a young boxer that i walk. I would say its not perfect all of the time but it is definately easier than when she was just on her collar.
J


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

smudgebiscuit said:


> Hi all,
> 
> A few weeks ago we bought a Dogmatic headcollar for Molly as she has defeated every other training aid for pully dogs....at 1st it was a miracle & i could walk her easily-now she has learnt to pull on it & is constantly fighting to get it off,then yesterday she pulled our neighbour dog walker over & she has sprained her wrist & grazed her knee. We do heel work at puppy class-where she is really good-but at home she just pulls no matter what. The Dogmatic allowed me to walk her better-but it's not teaching her not to pull....tried the 'every time she pulls stop technique' but after nearly 4 months she just isn't getting it-even when we tried her on normal neck collar & she's rearing up & half chocking on it she doesn't stop pulling. I feel terrible about the accident with our neighbour-she's ok about it & just said it's one of those things but really do need to nip this in the bud. Thinking of trying to find a trainer to help???


How are you using the dogmatic? For best results you need a double ended lead, one end clipped to the headcollar, the other clipped to his normal collar. You need to keep his head down; if he can't get his nose up, he cannot pull. I have to admit I have not tried one on a determined puller. The other thing I have seen used which seems to work well is a front clip harness. What happens with these is that if the dog pulls, he just turns himself around, and the idea is that he gives up trying because he ain't getting anywhere.

You certainly don't want to put off your neighbour, so I expect it would be worth trying either of these techniques, or the other things recommended.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

The clip on training heelwork is the dreaded 'traditional' method where you jerk the dogs neck - shock horror! 
Of course it is the only way that will work efficiently, that is why it is the method that has been used for centuries but there seem a lot of people on here that think it cruel.

You can see from the clip that the only time the lead is tight is when the dog is being corrected for walking in the wrong place. The secret is to keep the lead just loose and to tweak the dog back in position. As soon as that 'jerk' becomes a pull you are wasting your time because the dog will pull back. If the dog is a confirmed puller or very over excited you may well need a couple of real jerks to get it to listen - but if you have to carry on with a more violent correction then you have been doing it wrong and are not gaining anything.
The changes of direction are to get the dog paying attention as it is not sure what is coming next.

I hope now that this clip is available to see that those of you who think that training that way is 'cruel' will realise that is actually the best way of doing it. Whatever point is there in buying loads of gadgets and still ending up with a dog that hasnt a clue what it is supposed to do and ends up injuring someone.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

I've got a 10 mth old Springer coming here sometime in the next 2 weeks with horrendous pulling on the lead problems, I'll let you know how we get on.

I've also got a young St Bernard, who's owner needs help putting a HTM routine together, also coming sometime soon. That should be even more interesting....LOL


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Blitz said:


> The clip on training heelwork is the dreaded 'traditional' method where you jerk the dogs neck - shock horror!
> *Of course it is the only way that will work efficiently*, that is why it is the method that has been used for centuries but there seem a lot of people on here that think it cruel.
> 
> You can see from the clip that the only time the lead is tight is when the dog is being corrected for walking in the wrong place. The secret is to keep the lead just loose and to tweak the dog back in position. As soon as that 'jerk' becomes a pull you are wasting your time because the dog will pull back. If the dog is a confirmed puller or very over excited you may well need a couple of real jerks to get it to listen - but if you have to carry on with a more violent correction then you have been doing it wrong and are not gaining anything.
> ...


I tried that with my retriever, before I knew better, on the advice and demonstration of a trainer. It never worked with him. Personally I would rather buy gadgets than have my dog's neck damaged.


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## smudgebiscuit (Jan 25, 2011)

Beltabout-that was a great post,thanks! We tried her in the garden with the dogmatic-walking round & round,stopping,sitting etc and she did brilliantly-we did it for at least a week everyday for about 30mins & really thought we'd cracked it.....but as soon as you get her outside of the garden she starts pulling again & pawing at the head collar to get it off or dragging her face along the ground to remove it. The puppy class we go to doesn't believe in treats etc so all actions/manouveres are rewarded with a bit of praise & a quick chest rub only-yet she still behaves really well & does everything that she is menat to...get her outside of the puppy class.....pull,pull,pull!!!!
May start walking her around the house with the lead & collar on to see if we can go back to basics with her.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

smudgebiscuit said:


> Beltabout-that was a great post,thanks! We tried her in the garden with the dogmatic-walking round & round,stopping,sitting etc and she did brilliantly-we did it for at least a week everyday for about 30mins & really thought we'd cracked it.....but as soon as you get her outside of the garden she starts pulling again & pawing at the head collar to get it off or dragging her face along the ground to remove it. The puppy class we go to doesn't believe in treats etc so all actions/manouveres are rewarded with a bit of praise & a quick chest rub only-yet she still behaves really well & does everything that she is menat to...get her outside of the puppy class.....pull,pull,pull!!!!
> May start walking her around the house with the lead & collar on to see if we can go back to basics with her.


Never mind what your training class believe in; what do you believe in? If a treat for every time she stops (to start with) stops her pulling, that is the way to go. It is good to take her to training classes, but you do have to improvise sometimes in the real world.


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## smudgebiscuit (Jan 25, 2011)

yeah i must admit their ways do seem a bit old fashioned at times, we did try the treat thing with her on the lead when we 1st got her so may try it again. she does respond quite well to treats in the house during sit,paw,down etc...only thing she doesn't do well at with treats is her re-call-she's goes totally deaf when you try to get her to come back to you..hence she is still on a training lead. Would love to be able to let her run free without her pulling our arms off but just not posible at the moment.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

smudgebiscuit said:


> yeah i must admit there ways do seem a bit old fashioned at times, we did try the treat thing with her on the lead when we 1st got her so may try it again. she does respond quite well to treats in the house during sit,paw,down etc...only thing she doesn't do well at with treats is her re-call-she's goes totally deaf when you try to get her to come back to you..hence she is still on a training lead. Would love to be able to let her run free without her pulling our arms off but just not posible at the moment.


It may not work, but you could try some really tasty treat, like liver cake, and make sure she only ever gets that particular treat when she comes back to you. Most dogs love liver cake and will do almost anything for it. Find something that she really, really loves and stick to it, just for recall.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

beltabout said:


> Okay so the dog walks to heel in puppy classes. But will not when anywhere else.
> 
> So the dog knows what to do.
> 
> ...


Great post, this really needs highlighting!

Habits are hard to break though, and I wonder how long this type of dog can be expected to stay focussed and enjoy walking in harness.

The Springer/Cocker Spaniel dogs I see, tend to be wanting manically to dash about in the undergrowth when they're out and about, and tend not to have much focus on their owners.

If the dogs instincts are getting turned on, how much can be expected in that situaton?



smudgebiscuit said:


> Beltabout-that was a great post,thanks! We tried her in the garden with the dogmatic-walking round & round,stopping,sitting etc and she did brilliantly-we did it for at least a week everyday for about 30mins & really thought we'd cracked it.....but as soon as you get her outside of the garden she starts pulling again & pawing at the head collar to get it off or dragging her face along the ground to remove it. The puppy class we go to doesn't believe in treats etc so all actions/manouveres are rewarded with a bit of praise & a quick chest rub only-yet she still behaves really well & does everything that she is menat to...get her outside of the puppy class.....pull,pull,pull!!!!
> May start walking her around the house with the lead & collar on to see if we can go back to basics with her.


Perhaps she's not really building a positive enough association with the behaviour you want, if you're giving this praise and affectionate tummy rub, and there's more exciting things around to investigate, or try and get that head collar off (which she's learned now she can manage).

I think I'd try giving the head collar a complete break for a bit, then try again using highish value treats to desensitise to it, copying the style demonstrated in Victoria Stillwell's programme ("In the US" series are best ones).

Something ain't working, and if the puppy is behaving in training class, but not elsewhere, then it's the wrong way round. I had a dog that performed much better in familiar environments (like house, garden and park), but was unreliable unless lured in the noisy and distracting training hall.

I do hope this is not the case, but frankly I am having some suspicions that there's not only praise but the class is a place of traditional "discipline" ie Carott & Stick, as why would praise be sufficient there, but not motivate in other circumstances? I do hope it's just the relatively uninteresting hall and a quiet class atmosphere, with the habit of *working* that accounts for the difference.


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## smudgebiscuit (Jan 25, 2011)

oh god...liver cake....sounds vile :scared: but if it works i'll give it a go...anyone got a recipe?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

smudgebiscuit said:


> oh god...liver cake....sounds vile :scared: but if it works i'll give it a go...anyone got a recipe?


I wouldn't recommend you try some yourself :lol: But dogs seem to think it is great.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Put it in the search engine on here. Someone posted the recipe only last week and I think there are lots of others who have also posted it.


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## smudgebiscuit (Jan 25, 2011)

heehee...liver cake not for me:lol: treid it years ago & i was very ill on it:arf:

If anyone has a recipe for it i'll cook some up for my mollster :thumbup:


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## beltabout (Dec 11, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> It may not work, but you could try some really tasty treat, like liver cake, and make sure she only ever gets that particular treat when she comes back to you. Most dogs love liver cake and will do almost anything for it. Find something that she really, really loves and stick to it, just for recall.


Here here, the reward has to be sufficient to motivate the dog some dogs work with words some work with clicks, some even have nice juicy chicken. These are great to get a dog to focus, you don't have to give them every single time once the dog knows what it's doing.

With any dog that has high drive you have to ensure that you become the excitement and that you can channel this drive. Keep the dog interested, as a gun dog trainer I carry a bag with seven different retrieving items, canvas dummies, plastic dummies, tennis ball, retrieving ball, dummies covered in fur, dummies with wings and paint rollers! This is just so that a retriever experiences different object and to keep up their motivation.

You can allow a spaniel to hunt, but let him find something, because when he doesn't he does not switch off and will keep hunting. So I throw balls when the dog is not looking, and tell him how great he is when he finds it. You can make this harder for him with cheese, liver cake or something similar.

The secret is not to let the dog get too far out and to call him back when he does keep up his interest.

*Please also note that the video is not me* this is a gun dog trainer based in Yorkshire and can be found here Home - Kirkbourne Gundogs


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

This was copied and pasted from someone's post last week, so sorry if I am stealing the whole thing!

300g liver
300g self raising flour
2 eggs
1 clove garlic
water / milk

Put the liver and flour plus garlic in a blender, whizz until like a thick paste. Put the eggs in a jug, add same volume of milk or water (I use water). Add the egg mixture to the blender and whizz some more until smooth. Pour into baking tins, bake 30-45 mins at about 180 degrees (maybe 200 if not a fan oven...mine is fierce ).

Turn out of tins, divide into portions (makes about 8-10 good sized portions) and freeze until needed.

Warning: if your blender starts to struggle, you will find that bits of tissue from the liver are wrapped around the blades...remove these and carry on!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Blitz said:


> The clip on training heelwork is the dreaded 'traditional' method where you jerk the dogs neck - shock horror!
> Of course it is the only way that will work efficiently, that is why it is the method that has been used for centuries but there seem a lot of people on here that think it cruel.


Now that is just not true! ( "only way that that will work efficiently, that is why it is the method that has been used for centuries" )

I'm afraid walking up and down a few paces away from lake edge on grass, round and rond, rather than going somewhere does not exactly impress me. Further more the dog looks confused and rather bewildered to me.

I really do not like this clip at all. Why does the dog react to the jerk, if say it's eager to bolt after a bird or squirrel it spots?

How do you get the dog to heel off leash, or stay close by you in the same situation, where no lead jerk is appliable?
What about when the dog is scared by noisy passing traffic, or startled and needs it's attention breaking and to move onto something positive? Is a lead jerk a positive thing, making the dog happier, or something which works more through implicit threat *"quieten up or else!"*.

I've seen full check collars and slip type leads, on far too many dogs, that are oblivious to owners, and half strangling themselves, at which point they cannot learn anything. Hopefully the advocates of this method, will realise that it does not work for the average dog owner even if those of expertise, learn to calmly and safely apply it.

Give me a dog that's enjoying it's training and eager to follow, giving full attention on requiest, any day.


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## smudgebiscuit (Jan 25, 2011)

thanks for the recipe...can't wait to have that lovely smell wafting around my kitchen


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## beltabout (Dec 11, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Now that is just not true! ( "only way that that will work efficiently, that is why it is the method that has been used for centuries" )
> 
> I'm afraid walking up and down a few paces away from lake edge on grass, round and rond, rather than going somewhere does not exactly impress me. Further more the dog looks confused and rather bewildered to me.
> 
> ...


This clip shows how to start heal work not how to finish and perfect walking at heal. That said I have used a very similar method with my own dogs and many other who have been brought for training as puppies and as older dogs who are pulling like trains!

With forums it is so very difficult to explain it correctly an you have to make lots of assumptions and give general advice.

Nick


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

First off we train our dogs not to walk nicely. Their pulling is rewarded on a couple of levels. 
Pressure on the dogs for-chest is rewarding to dogs so when they lean into the collar/leash/harness etc. triggers opposition reflex - reward no. 1
Next off every time the dog pulls he gets to where he wants - we have taught the dog that pulling = reward.

Next thing to understand is that dogs can't generalise. This is not about mystic things like changes in your interaction - this is about how dogs learn. So puppy is great with LLW in class but he is unable, as a dog, to generalise this behaviour to anywhere else. 
We must first teach puppy the behaviour in a low distraction area and then the hard work starts - generalising, or in dog training speak proofing.

In order to be able to proof your puppy's loose leash walking behaviour from class to all other scenarios you must first stop him getting rewarded for pulling. 
This is why I hate the over reliance on 'miracle' tools - they don't train dogs, they only do the first bit - management or prevention.

Stopping him being rewarded may mean using tools such as headcollars or harnesses or whatever. But soon the dog will learn to pull in these as he has previously.
This also means employing red light green light too - stopping any time there is pressure on the leash and only continuing when the leash is slack.

If tools are not safe because a dog is soooo good at pulling  then not walking him at all or as usual for a week while working on these exercises is the best solution.
Now before I get all sorts of flames thrown at me  there are lots and lots and lots of other acceptable ways to exercise dogs, many in the same or less time a walk takes.

There are plenty of loose leash walking exercises to work in low distraction areas e.g. start in the kitchen get 80% success rate there and then work in three different rooms of the house get 80% success rate and then in the back garden, then the front garden, then quiet street, then quiet park and so on and on.
Here is more on LLW exercises: Who's walking who? | Pet Central&#039;s Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

Without the use of intimidation, damaging jerks or pain it is possible to get excellent LLW behaviour from dogs - and this is the true quick fix as there will be no fallout associated with jerking etc.

As the link states, first start teaching your pup that following you (without a leash) is brill. If the dog doesn't want to willingly follow you how will you teach him to 'heel'?

Practice using the dogs regular walking collar and leash when teaching LLW exercises so that the dog learns to walk without tools. Use the tools as preventatives.

You don't need the smelliest treats either. In low distraction scenarios and when the teaching is easy have pup earn his entire dinner for LLW exercises, then use toys to really proof it.
When in higher distraction situations use the distractions - they are rewards! So dog is pulling to get to sniff tree - have him keep loose leash etc. to get to tree, or person, or dog, or ball or whatever.

Best of luck


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

beltabout said:


> This clip shows how to start heal work not how to finish and perfect walking at heal. That said I have used a very similar method with my own dogs and many other who have been brought for training as puppies and as older dogs who are pulling like trains!
> 
> With forums it is so very difficult to explain it correctly an you have to make lots of assumptions and give general advice.


I do understand that the method very likely works for you, I just hope you can respect why I would not choose to train any dog this way now.

I have in past had to unlearn pulling in a BC, taught by this very method in a traditional class by a local trainer of good reputation. The handler was indeed meant to time a jerk with full check collar and it was frankly a nightmare to walk that dog once it got near full grown and strong. In practice I became the main dog walker, because the older owners were no longer vigourous enough to deal with it. OTOH their previous dog, who I trained in puppy hood, learned LLW and rarely pulled, despite being a generaly more intelligent less reliably biddable dog, without any such tactics on simple flat collar; which meant they enjoyed strolls with it much more and thus got more trips out with them.

I just do not think, Mr Average dog owner succeeds with this style of training. I have seen R+ heelwork techniques work very well with a class of rather delinquent looking out of puppyhood dogs, over the summer so I feel rather strongly that the statement *only efficient way* is very false.

Furthermore when it goes wrong, it risks injury to the dog and a significant vets bill.



tripod said:


> In order to be able to proof your puppy's loose leash walking behaviour from class to all other scenarios you must first stop him getting rewarded for pulling.
> This is why I hate the over reliance on 'miracle' tools - they don't train dogs, they only do the first bit - management or prevention.
> 
> Stopping him being rewarded may mean using tools such as headcollars or harnesses or whatever. But soon the dog will learn to pull in these as he has previously.
> ...


Excellent point! These "miracle tools" can be useful to manage things, but you do need to work on the positive.

Don't tell me you chain them to DW style treadmill? :wink:


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Now that is just not true! ( "only way that that will work efficiently, that is why it is the method that has been used for centuries" )
> 
> I'm afraid walking up and down a few paces away from lake edge on grass, round and rond, rather than going somewhere does not exactly impress me. Further more the dog looks confused and rather bewildered to me.
> 
> ...


well is is and has been the only method that has worked for me! albeit we seldom use a lead! I think that most peoples problem with the slip lead is that they don't use it correctly! they wait for the dog to pull like hell then they yank like hell! t'is imo about two hand control - the leash should remain slack at all times !


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> t'is imo about two hand control - the leash should remain slack at all times !


You can do that with trad flat collar, no need for slip lead or check collar.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> You can do that with trad flat collar, no need for slip lead or check collar.


Well the same would apply to the head collars and bridles then!
And these are not exempt from causing neck injury so I am led to believe


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well the same would apply to the head collars and bridles then!
> And these are not exempt from causing neck injury so I am led to believe


Headcollars can certainly cause neck injuries if used incorrectly, like attaching an extension lead. The dogs runs, and when he gets to the end of the extension, his neck whips round. The idea of a headcollar is to keep his nose down, so letting him run loose with one could very likely have the same affect. When you are leading a horse with a headcollar, you don't let it run out in front of you, do you? Otherwise you would be flat on your jacksy.

I use a headcollar on Ferdie purely for back up. Like today, I was talking to an old lady who wanted to stroke them when someone came along with a staffie cross on a lead. he crossed the road, but mine were very keen to go say hello. I could hold Joshua easily, but I know that if Ferdie had not had his headcollar on, I would never have been able to hold him.

I would never recommend using one instead of teaching them to walk to heel or on a loose leash, but I know just how strong he is so I don't take any chances.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Don't tell me you chain them to DW style treadmill? :wink:


Hell hasn't frozen over just yet Rob 

But I don't see anything wrong with shaping a dog to use a tread mill - no chain attaching him there though just some patient training 

Just on the tool discussion - ALL tools are dangerous if not used correctly, even benign ones like flat collars and all are potentially aversive.
But there are some tools that are designed to be aversive when used correctly and IMO they are more likely to do damage.

Anything that is designed to tighten on the neck in an unlimited way is averesive and potentially dangerous.

Head collars are also high risk and are designed to be aversive IMO. The first head collars (certainly Gentle Leader) were designed to put pressure on certain areas behind the dog's skull and on his muzzle. These are both contact points for 'grabs' in dog-dog communication. If you see dogs being 'grabbed' in this way by another they immediately freeze apparently intimidated by the pressure and into complying.

But using leash pressure and indeed pressure exerted by head collars can be turned into a positive thing for dogs who are trained as such.
Referring to the link I posted previously, one of the most effective LLW techniques is to teach puppy that collar pressure is a cue to return to you so that if the dog does reach the end of the leash their conditioned response is to turn into the pressure, thus relieving it. The dog learns to monitor leash pressure too.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

smudgebiscuit said:


> Hi all,
> 
> A few weeks ago we bought a Dogmatic headcollar for Molly as she has defeated every other training aid for pully dogs....at 1st it was a miracle & i could walk her easily-now she has learnt to pull on it & is constantly fighting to get it off,then yesterday she pulled our neighbour dog walker over & she has sprained her wrist & grazed her knee. We do heel work at puppy class-where she is really good-but at home she just pulls no matter what. The Dogmatic allowed me to walk her better-but it's not teaching her not to pull....tried the 'every time she pulls stop technique' but after nearly 4 months she just isn't getting it-even when we tried her on normal neck collar & she's rearing up & half chocking on it she doesn't stop pulling. I feel terrible about the accident with our neighbour-she's ok about it & just said it's one of those things but really do need to nip this in the bud. Thinking of trying to find a trainer to help???


Hi OP,

You say she's constantly fighting to get it off. You need to make sure that it is comfortable on her AND condition a positive emotional response to having it presented to her and put on for short and longer durations 

Take a look at the following video for an idea of how this is done:

"If you're good, I'll let you wear the gentle leader/headcollar!"

I would use the dogmatic as a training aid. It is not the solution to the problem but will allow you to make it easier for her to be reinforced for the right behaviour. 
I personally think that the key to teaching loose lead walking is teaching the dog:
1. That a slack lead is very very rewarding 
2. that duration of the slack lead behaviour is very very rewarding

I would recommend something called the 300 peck method for adding duration to the slack lead behaviour that she will inevitably already offer you even if only for a second (whether when practising indoors or in the garden or in less exciting places with her dogmatic). You need to capture that behaviour, make it incredibly rewarding (she will want to reoffer it to you), work on gradually adding duration (see below) and make the behaviour really rewarding at all times and in all environments 

300 peck method

Hope this is of some help and good luck


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well the same would apply to the head collars and bridles then!
> And these are not exempt from causing neck injury so I am led to believe


Nope you're not. I tend to use a half-check collar rather than attach to flat collar, because I think it's safer than flat collar (audible chain grating provides warning and some slack in the system).

With the young dog who had trouble with LLW and was very reactive I used a front clip harness and double ended lead (Halti) rather than head collar; very much quick fix. The drawback was not having ability to turn head to avoid her glaring at approaching dogs, without turning her right round.

Let's face it, any poorly trained or frightened dog is at risk of injury, through moving unpredicatably. I had one puppy knock me down at class by running under my feet from behind as I was active at tug with my mutt, and had me almost flatten it.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Nope you're not. I tend to use a half-check collar rather than attach to flat collar, because I think it's safer than flat collar (audible chain grating provides warning and some slack in the system).
> 
> .


The sound of chain (leashes, collars whatever) can become a major trigger for aggressive and reactive behaviours is dogs. It is one of the most common triggers for these dogs that I see.

Anything with chain is likely to be harsher on the neck too.

Using martingales and limited slips once adjusted CORRECTLY is acceptable but 'grating' sounds are all part of that intimidation and use of aversives for exercises that frankly can be taught without these nasties.


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## springer-lucy (Jan 29, 2011)

smudgebiscuit said:


> Beltabout-that was a great post,thanks! We tried her in the garden with the dogmatic-walking round & round,stopping,sitting etc and she did brilliantly-we did it for at least a week everyday for about 30mins & really thought we'd cracked it.....but as soon as you get her outside of the garden she starts pulling again & pawing at the head collar to get it off or dragging her face along the ground to remove it.


Haha yup, Lucy is exactly the same, she walks perfectly within our garden fence but as soon as you pass that gate it's pull pull pull, so frustrating!
Lucy knows what heel is and used to walk fairly well when encouraged with treats but now she doesnt even seem bothered about treats anymore(even sausage!) it's like she's determined to pull me to the park, however on our way home she walks beautifully!

My other half keeps saying 'She's a springer, springers pull' but I refuse to believe she cant walk nicely.


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## smudgebiscuit (Jan 25, 2011)

at our puppy class there are 5 springers & all of them pull!!! Not in the class-just out & about....springers..you gorra love 'em!! Molly is hard work but worth every minute


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

Jacks the same pulls me to the field then walks miles better on the way back


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## beltabout (Dec 11, 2010)

smudgebiscuit said:


> at our puppy class there are 5 springers & all of them pull!!! Not in the class-just out & about....springers..you gorra love 'em!! Molly is hard work but worth every minute


I have many springers none of them pull and all walk at heel on and off the lead, and are walked and worked together.

When they are worked together only one works at a time so as not to pollute the area, the others either sit and watch or walk at heel.

All dogs will pull if they have not been trained properly, I can honestly say I have never had a dog who pulls and I have never failed to train a dod to walk on a lead and not to pull.

Timing and time is the secret. People often perfect the heal and not pulling in one area (Puppy classes and the garden) and they think the dog is trained it is NOT, you have to train in a variety of places and situations and you have to keep at, if the dog is allowed to "forget" its training it will (it never does IMO the owner retrains it without realising).

I get loads of people bringing their dog back as it has "forgotten" how to heal only to perform a perfect heal for me first time. The reason the dog has "forgotten" is that the owner has "FORGOTTEN" and is actually causing the dog to pull. A quick owner refresher will have the dog back at heal in minutes.

The bit that alway surprises me is some people come back time, after time ,after time and never seem to learn. I can teach and train dogs but people you can keep 'em.

Nick


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

I think slip leads are great but where we live now I stick to a headcollar. There is so much crap about and so many things going off (aggressive dogs for one) that I'm worried if I dropped Rupert's lead and he ran off and got caught, the slip lead would yank tight on his neck and do damage. Where we lived before he walked fantastically and I had no worries, but round here there are a fair few dogs you don't want to be within 20 feet of at any cost, and there are a few Rupert has tried to get away from and its easier to gain control by a headcollar for me. On his slip lead he has had me over a couple times trying to get out the way of certain dogs and its not good for his neck or my arse 

Rupert walks fine on a Canny, he has never quite been to heel he has always been about 9inches to a foot away from my leg which I'm lead to believe is too far, but he doesn't physically pull and is responsive so I just leave it now, I think that might be how it feels most natural to him and because I have a habit of stumbling he probably fears I might barge into him  :blushing:

I do like the Canny collar, its like the K9 bridle and doesn't ride into the eyes, Rupert was useless in a Halti just didn't work for him at all and he could get it off easy as pie.

Its very frustrating having a dog who pulls, we got Milo at 16 months old and he pulled like a train so it was straight into a headcollar for him because despite being only 27kgs he can yank me pretty damn far and I'm not short/small as such. He was harder than Rupert hands down but did get there. I think it really is persistence and lots of time.

I really wanted to get Rupert back on a slip lead this summer but with the sorts of dogs round here in regular every day walks its just not worth it :nonod:


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