# Surely this can't be legal



## iknownothing (Oct 27, 2015)

Hello all,
I know someone that breeds cats for profit and makes quite a lot of money doing so. The thing is they don't declare it or pay any tax. I just wanted to know if other breeders declare what they are doing regardless of how much you make or lose as the case may be. I've looked online and all i can find is information on hobby breeders who generally make no profit, and quite often lose money if i understand correctly. This person certainly isn't a hobby breeder. The cats are kept in the garden in a kennel and seem to be churning out kittens ('piggy banks' as they refer to them as) constantly. They once told me they can earn up to £20,000 per year! This is surely a business and therefore they should have to declare the income and pay tax....right? 
Does anyone have any knowledge on this subject?

Thanks


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tell the tax man. It's a simple as that. And provide evidence if you can - photos of the back garden for example. You might want to tell the RSPCA as well if you suspect conditions in the cattery are poor.


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## ScampiCat (Oct 11, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> Tell the tax man. It's a simple as that. And provide evidence if you can - photos of the back garden for example. You might want to tell the RSPCA as well if you suspect conditions in the cattery are poor.


Agreed!

Apart from the financial side of it, there are laws about welfare standards that must be met. If someone is able to make such a large amount of profit I would seriously question if the basic standards are being met at all!


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## iknownothing (Oct 27, 2015)

Thanks for the replies. A friend of mine who also knows them has said he will report it. I just wasn't sure what the law said about it as i could only find information on hobby breeders and nothing about this type of cat farming for profit. I have no idea what a suitable cattery should be like. This is basically a wooden shed with chicken wire on one side. Personally i thought it wouldn't be very comfortable during winter especially for the kittens.


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## ScampiCat (Oct 11, 2014)

iknownothing said:


> Thanks for the replies. A friend of mine who also knows them has said he will report it. I just wasn't sure what the law said about it as i could only find information on hobby breeders and nothing about this type of cat farming for profit. I have no idea what a suitable cattery should be like. This is basically a wooden shed with chicken wire on one side. Personally i thought it wouldn't be very comfortable during winter especially for the kittens.


I would encourage you to report it also. The more reports the better.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...t_data/file/69392/pb13332-cop-cats-091204.pdf
^ that's the defra Code of Practice for the welfare of Cats if you would like a little more knowledge on the subject.

Note it states:



> Make sure that any place you leave your cat is large enough to ensure at all times a comfortable area with effective ventilation and temperature control and that your cat is able to move around to ensure its comfort, avoiding becoming too hot or too cold.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I am sure the RSPCA will be interested in paying these people a visit, as will HM Revenue and Customs, so I urge you to take action.. If the breeding business is above board, registered for tax purposes, and cat welfare standards are being met adequately then the owners have nothing to worry about, and you will have peace of mind..


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

See:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM20205.htm


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

iknownothing said:


> Thanks for the replies. A friend of mine who also knows them has said he will report it. I just wasn't sure what the law said about it as i could only find information on hobby breeders and nothing about this type of cat farming for profit. I have no idea what a suitable cattery should be like. This is basically a wooden shed with chicken wire on one side. Personally i thought it wouldn't be very comfortable during winter especially for the kittens.


Please do report them as well. The RSPCA may or may not be interested (if you do report to them make sure you tell them the way they refer to the cats as 'piggy banks' etc.), but HMRC can be like a terrier after a rabbit when they think they are not getting their dues - my Mum used to work for them  And the more reports they have, the more reason they have to act.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If they are running it as a business then they will have needed planning permission from the council and will be paying business rates. That's easy checked. From what you say they aren't exactly being cagey about it, exactly the opposite to the point of telling all and sundry the income they derive so it's unlikely to be some sort of underground operation.

The acid test as to whether they are running a business and require planning permission is whether the breeding is incidental to their ownership of the animals. As they appear to make no secret of it not being a quick check with the council would probably yield fastest results. If they are producing/selling enough kittens to make that sort of money after even the most meagre expenses there must be a constant stream of vehicles to their property which must have been noticed.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

iknownothing said:


> Hello all,
> I know someone that breeds cats for profit and makes quite a lot of money doing so. The thing is they don't declare it or pay any tax. I just wanted to know if other breeders declare what they are doing regardless of how much you make or lose as the case may be. I've looked online and all i can find is information on hobby breeders who generally make no profit, and quite often lose money if i understand correctly. This person certainly isn't a hobby breeder. The cats are kept in the garden in a kennel and seem to be churning out kittens ('piggy banks' as they refer to them as) constantly. They once told me they can earn up to £20,000 per year! This is surely a business and therefore they should have to declare the income and pay tax....right?
> Does anyone have any knowledge on this subject?
> 
> Thanks


A few year ago I found out for sure that in UK we do not have to pay taxes on sold kittens as breeding is considered to be a hobby.

In USA it is a funny situation. They have to pay taxes on sold kittens but you cannot offset the costs as it is considered your hobby.

Being an accountant I do keep some track of my breeding in- and outgoings. So far I am around £7000 in minus in 3 years due to C-sections and very small litters. I know I must be very unlucky but still...

If I was expected to pay taxes on top of all my costs that would probably tip me over the edge as much as I enjoy watching little kittens grow. I would probably give it up.

There are not enough good pedigree cats in this country as it is due to the difficulties in bringing them from abroad and all the costs of breeding them here if you do it right.

If you give a taxman this idea he would probably say "Thank you very much for reminding me about you lot, now give me your money please" He would not differentiate who takes breeding as a business and who does it for enjoyment. He would tax all of us. Then breeding of good pedigree cats will be a privilege of rich house wives, not reasonably ordinary families who just love cats.

If anything, this back yard breeding should be made illegal. Stop placing their ads on Pets4homes and where else they advertise. Repossess their cats who are being mistreated. 
I only wish I knew how to do it.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_A few year ago I found out for sure that in UK we do not have to pay taxes on sold kittens as breeding is considered to be a hobby_
Generally correct because most breeders in the UK are hobbyists but according to the detailed advice sheet for HMRC each case should be considered on its merits. Something which is a hobby can mushroom into a business and it's an individual call. We have the ridiculous situation where different authorities have different criteria so your local council may want to consider you a business under the 'incidental to normal enjoyment' test whereas HMRC would still rate you a hobbyist under their guidelines.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Someone earning £20k per year breeding cats is running a business. They should be declaring the income & expenses to HMRC, be paying business rates and have planning permission for it.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Of course they should ............................ if that's what is happening and if it is then there would be plenty of activity to show it is so the relevant authorities will deal with it as appropriate.

On the other hand, I have long since given up wasting breath on those who believe there's money to made from breeding and more than once replied to the suggestion that breeders are only in it for the money that I of course earned a huge amount from it and my cats were nothing but breeding machines to me. People are going to believe what they want to believe anyway


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Forgive me if I'm wrong but surely you only have to pay tax if you are making profits over a certain amount?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Well you can certainly offset all expenses against tax so that figure (if true) is not going to attract anything like the amount of tax the OP is envisioning. The description of the housing could easily be any that I've seen, including my own stud accommodation, viewed only from the outside by someone who doesn't know the difference between chicken wire and weldmesh and isn't cheap to install or run. There's been a very quick assumption of welfare issues, stemming I think from that description of kennels, but even if the breeder isn't the most caring they still have to feed their cats and kittens. There would be a hefty chunk of that £20k could be claimable.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

iknownothing said:


> Hello all,
> I know someone that breeds cats for profit and makes quite a lot of money doing so. The thing is they don't declare it or pay any tax. I just wanted to know if other breeders declare what they are doing regardless of how much you make or lose as the case may be. I've looked online and all i can find is information on hobby breeders who generally make no profit, and quite often lose money if i understand correctly. This person certainly isn't a hobby breeder. The cats are kept in the garden in a kennel and seem to be churning out kittens ('piggy banks' as they refer to them as) constantly. They once told me they can earn up to £20,000 per year! This is surely a business and therefore they should have to declare the income and pay tax....right?
> Does anyone have any knowledge on this subject?
> 
> Thanks


That sounds rather like the article which was written the cat magazine not too long ago. If this is true then I would report to RSPCA first, as the welfare of the cats is more important than them making money. However there are people out there who like to brag and the simple truth is they are probably not making anything like that sort of money.

First stop RSPCA.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_First stop RSPCA._
And yet the OP's first post shows no concern whatsoever for the welfare of these cats and makes no suggestion that they aren't being cared for. They may not be but only as the thread evolved was welfare mentioned (firstly by others) without any evidence it's an issue.


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## ScampiCat (Oct 11, 2014)

havoc said:


> _First stop RSPCA._
> And yet the OP's first post shows no concern whatsoever for the welfare of these cats and makes no suggestion that they aren't being cared for. They may not be but only as the thread evolved was welfare mentioned (firstly by others) without any evidence it's an issue.


True. I brought up welfare as a possible issue simply due to the fact that the breeder apparently refers to his cats as "little piggy banks", my train of thinking is that perhaps someone who views there cats from a profit angle might not be so concerned about welfare of there breeding cats. For example: Would they seek a vet if a cat was ill and needed treatment, or would that eat into there profits too much?

I admit, I was possibly speculating too heavily about the issue of welfare. I would very happily be wrong about that, and it is in fact the case that these cats are actually well cared for and that everything is fully above board!

Perhaps reading some of the posts on this forum have colored my judgement. Day after day posts are made about kittens leaving their mums too soon, often with clear signs of illness (snotty noses, crusty eyes, etc, etc.) that should be dealt with before ever leaving the "breeders" home if the "breeder" actually gave a damn. (and I know not all breeders are like this at all, this forum has some very caring and responsible breeders)

Like I said, I would very happily be wrong. It could be the OP has simply got the wrong end of the stick and/or there has been some exaggeration from the breeder in question and the profits are no where near like what has been stated.

And if everything is fully above board and the RSPCA are contacted and find everything to be fine and dandy, is that really such a bad thing?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If the RSPCA choose to visit because someone is reported then fine. What I don't understand from the initial post is what cause has been put forward for them to do so. The gripe is about someone supposedly making money - something the OP was 'once told'. I do wonder when that was, under what circumstances and why there is a sudden need to do something about it now.

There are certain things that point towards a backyard breeding business, certain things that become an annoyance or nuisance to neighbours or attract attention and it's those signs which usually lead to intervention. So far not a single one has been mentioned here.


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## Sherylina (Sep 17, 2012)

What is worth remembering is that the RSPCA can only act within the law.

Someone could openly admit to the RSPCA that the cats are money making machines and they only keep them to make money from their breeding but as long as their basic needs are being met then the RSPCA can't do squat! Yes if the cats are not provided shelter or regular food/water, are living in a hazardous environment or are being denied veterinary care then the RSPCA may be able to intervene, but they can not remove someones cats because of the money making mindset alone.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

_"The cats are kept in the garden in a kennel"_

I thought they were concerned about that, though I might have read it incorrectly.

As a lot of us know, studs usually live in a pen in the garden.


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## ScampiCat (Oct 11, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> _"The cats are kept in the garden in a kennel"_
> 
> I thought they were concerned about that, though I might have read it incorrectly.
> 
> As a lot of us know, studs usually live in a pen in the garden.


OP also used the phrase "churning out kittens" (and that it happens"constantly" apparently) I find that quite a negative phrase. To me that implied that the OP doesn't have a positive image of the way the breeder conducts their business.

Maybe reading to much into it...? *shrugs*


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_OP also used the phrase "churning out kittens"_
I've seen exactly the same phrase used in a complaint I investigated. The breeder had two queens and the complaints were regular as clockwork - every three years when she changed her car.

Assuming a turnover of £20k (though I got the feeling it was intended to imply profit) we are talking about a minimum of 40 kittens at current prices. We haven't been told what breed(s) are involved so I'm taking a £500/kitten price as a rough guide. Shall we say six kittens per litter? Maybe four would be better as the survival rate can't be good in the implied conditions. That's ten litters a year, all in outdoor housing with an implication of no heating/poor husbandry/poor feeding etc. All this and no smell, no complaints from the bin men about the contents of their bins, no unusual traffic to the site for people to be buying these kittens, no word from vets about people buying poorly kittens from this place. If the quoted figure is profit we are talking a much bigger scale, hundreds of kittens and still nobody has noticed anything other than a conversation where they felt the need to discuss their finances, including presumably their tax affairs, with an acquaintance.


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## ScampiCat (Oct 11, 2014)

_"I've seen exactly the same phrase used in a complaint I investigated."_

So again, a negative use of the phrase.And that's what I was trying to explain. It's a phrase that I only associate with negative connotations which the op used hence why I initially (rightly or wrongly) started talking about welfare.

It does seem -when you attempt to break down the numbers, and scrutinise the information - that it is likely the £20k figure is probably an exaggeration. Trouble is, when attempting to answer the OP's question of whether it is legal or not, we only have the info given by the OP, and little else to go on regarding the situation,


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The OP has the information. Firstly if they are actually turning over £20k from breeding cats I'm sure the HMRC would be interested, and if they are producing enough kittens to achieve that turnover then the local authority might be interested, and so might the RSPCA.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Trouble is, when attempting to answer the OP's question of whether it is legal or not, we only have the info given by the OP, and little else to go on regarding the situation_
That very limited (and unverified) information grew into an assumed scenario very quickly though didn't it?


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## ScampiCat (Oct 11, 2014)

havoc said:


> _Trouble is, when attempting to answer the OP's question of whether it is legal or not, we only have the info given by the OP, and little else to go on regarding the situation_
> That very limited (and unverified) information grew into an assumed scenario very quickly though didn't it?


Yes something I have admitted already several posts ago...(I'm only human I'm afraid).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I really didn't intend it to be a personal comment, especially as you've stuck around on the thread and continued to discuss it rationally. I'd hate you to take it that way


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## ScampiCat (Oct 11, 2014)

havoc said:


> I really didn't intend it to be a personal comment, especially as you've stuck around on the thread and continued to discuss it rationally. I'd hate you to take it that way


Ok  and thanks.

I accept bringing up the point about welfare and the law etc. was probably jumping the gun given the limited info. I was thinking more with my heart than my head at the time.

....

Oh dear.. I've been such a drama queen XD...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_"I've seen exactly the same phrase used in a complaint I investigated." So again, a negative use of the phrase.And that's what I was trying to explain. It's a phrase that I only associate with negative connotations_
You are absolutely correct in this, the phrase 'churning out kittens' is quite emotive and only ever used to indicate a money hungry breeder. However, I've only ever _known_ it used to make up for a complete lack of factual information. If someone is anti breeding then they will describe a novice breeder with their first litter as churning out kittens. Those with real worries about welfare will cite specific reasons for those worries.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

OP joined Tuesday, made their post, last appeared 1:31pm Wednesday and seems to have vanished without trace since...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's half term. There was also a full moon this week


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

havoc said:


> It's half term. There was also a full moon this week


I suppose with a user name of Iknownothing, you have to wonder.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Kotanushka said:


> A few year ago I found out for sure that in UK we do not have to pay taxes on sold kittens as breeding is considered to be a hobby.
> 
> .Being an accountant I do keep some track of my breeding in- and outgoings.





moggie14 said:


> Forgive me if I'm wrong but surely you only have to pay tax if you are making profits over a certain amount?


My understanding is that HMRC will differentiate between the Hobby breeder whose 'income' from sales is nominal and/or infrequent, and where the main intent is breeding to improve lines, as opposed to someone who is breeding solely for the purpose of selling the large number of 'items'  produced at frequent intervals.
Either way, proper accounts should be kept as failing to make a profit does not necessarily mean you do not need to make a Tax Return.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_but you've seriously kept repeating it to me almost every time you reply to me_
Every time I've posted I have been replying to a point in a post - not to you or anyone. It's something I have always made a point of doing. You however, have now chosen to make it personal and in deference to your sensibilities I shall not be posting anything further on this forum.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I know it's still half term but please don't squabble children


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

havoc said:


> I shall not be posting anything further on this forum.


 I really hope you meant "thread" not "forum" @havoc


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