# Deposits



## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

Hi, i just wanted to ask other breeders view on deposits taken for kittens. 

Many breeders advertise on their websites that deposits are non-refundable. Fair enough if the new owner changes their mind or just doesn't collect. 

Should a deposit be with held but the balance refunded if a cat didn't settle in to its new home, as in not eating or drinking for 8 days? It was upon the advice of the breeder that she should have her back. Balance was paid back but not deposit as she said these are non refundable. Seems quite a clever scam to me. :nonod:


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

It's difficult - each breeder has their own terms. I take a deposit and it is refunded if I can't give you the cat you are after but not if you just change your mind. But I make that clear on my website. If the breeder has said all deposits are no refundable and you knew that then you entered into that agreement willingly and I would suppose have no comeback. (I'm not condoning the breeders actions just looking at it purely form a deposit angle) 

If it were I, I would keep the deposit until the cat found a new home so that I wasn't out of pocket and then refund. Breeders don't make a profit much as everyone thinks we do. My last litter made me a LOSS of nearly £2000, so maybe she doesn't have the money until the kitten is sold again.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I take deposits and reserve the right not to refund in full if I can show out of pocket expenses. This is mainly a hangover from pre-internet days when readvertising a kitten cost money. In reality it happens so rarely that I tend to pay somebody back all their money because I want a completely clean break.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

many thanks for taking the time to reply. I agree with you totally, in the past if a new owner changed their minds i have either kept the deposit until i can re home the kitten or taken advertising costs out of it and returned the rest.

in this case i don't feel this applied as the cat had obviously not been handled and was truly terrified. There was no receipt given for the deposit or balance, but i do have a long email trail so hopefully can prove what has been paid. Surely you cannot sell a kitten that is totally unsuitable and be expected to pocket £100.00 everytime?
According to the GCCF selling of pedigree cats is covered by trading standards regulations, so this would come under goods not fit for the purpose. Please don't think i am classing pedigree cats as "goods" of course i am not.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

What I have known is for the amount paid by the second owner to be refunded back as the older the kitten gets, the smaller the fee can be asked for.

But that is in situations where the new owner never should have bought a kitten rather than illness etc.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

messyhearts said:


> What I have known is for the amount paid by the second owner to be refunded back as the older the kitten gets, the smaller the fee can be asked for.
> 
> But that is in situations where the new owner never should have bought a kitten rather than illness etc.


Yes i agree its rather an unusual situation. after all if someone sold you a car and the engine fell out within a week, you'd be outraged if they made a refund minus your deposit!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

..But new owners would have visited the new kitten at some point surly so my question is why would a new owner take a kitten that was 'terrified' unsocialised?

There would be a big difference in kittens that had been born in a shed at the bottom of a garden and kittens that were born in a home i would think.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2013)

I always thought the deposit was also the cost of losing out on potential homes for that kitten. If someone has visited a kitten a couple of times, asked all the questions, received all the answers and agreed to taking it, then they have agreed that that kitten be reserved for them and only them and therefore it may lose out on other homes.

If for some reason the kitten didn't work out then it's going to down to whether the breeder even still has that money at the end of the day. Deposits can be paid weeks in advance, and then spent on the care for that particular kitten. So you could argue that that £100 went towards the health and benefit of the kitten you chose, and if you hadn't paid for it someone else would have. The breeders need that money if they are breeding ethically.

What was the actual problem? Why was the kitten not suitable? I don't think this is very common. I doubt the breeder constantly puts kittens in homes, takes them back and then pockets the deposit. Mostly because once a kitten's reach the age it can go home, it's unlikely the breeder will bother asking for a deposit from the next prospective owner. They'd just ask for the full price cos the kitten could go home that same day. No need to reserve it.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

the kitten in question was in fact a young cat aged 7 months. due to the fact that the breeder was nearly 600 miles away i didn't have the chance to see her before purchase. i asked lots of questions about her, including how she handled as i wanted her for show/breed. She is a very rare colour, hence the distance to travel.
Saw lots of photos, but all on a white background so unable to tell where she was situated (house or cattery) she wasn't for sale as such, so no home was lost by me having her. 
On the day of collection, there was a gale blowing and the roof on the cattery was rattling, she said this had spooked her out, maybe it had i am not sure. i took her at her word.
The point i am trying to make is i only returned the cat on her advice and that of my vet. i can honestly say without a shadow of doubt, money isn't a problem for this breeder. so she says she is not going to sell the cat and i only did what was asked of me, so why should it cost me £100.00??????


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2013)

Well, it shouldn't have costed anyone £100 because that's a really unadvised way to buy a kitten. Unfortunately it looks like you've learned the hard way cos she's not playing ball and refunding you, but then again a lot of people would say sadly it's your own fault (without trying to sound nasty).

Put it this way. By not meeting the breeder or the kitten in question and just going on faith that what they say is true, you chose to gamble your £100 from the start. Does that make a little more sense?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

When you went to see the girl you obviously went to view her in her pen i assume.

If that was me in the same sitution i would expect a cat who has been in cattery conditions to probably act that way and probably not as handleable as a cat brought up in the home plus you were a stranger to the cat.

How long did you give the cat to settle in? In time id think a 7 month old could well adjust just depends on the cats nature.

I know how you must feel about the £100 id feel gutted too but think about the breeders time she wasted and hassle.

If i was you i would take it as a learning experience and next time dont rush into anything and make sure you are sure before you agree to take a cat.

I myself would prob refund you in full as i wouldnt want the hassle.Breeders differ though.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> According to the GCCF selling of pedigree cats is covered by trading standards regulations, so this would come under goods not fit for the purpose.


Wrong. In a private sale the goods must be properly described ie you can't say a moggie is a pedigree. The rest of SoGA doesn't apply.



> Deposits can be paid weeks in advance, and then spent on the care for that particular kitten. So you could argue that that £100 went towards the health and benefit of the kitten you chose,


This sort of attitude smacks of a breeder sailing so close to the edge that they border on BYB to me. Are you really suggesting I should pay a deposit and if, in the worst case, the kitten dies before handover then I don't get my deposit back because the breeder still fed it while it was alive? The 'health and benefit' of the kitten are 100% the breeder's responsibility whilst still in the breeder's care.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

havoc said:


> Wrong. In a private sale the goods must be properly described ie you can't say a moggie is a pedigree. The rest of SoGA doesn't apply.
> 
> This sort of attitude smacks of a breeder sailing so close to the edge that they border on BYB to me. Are you really suggesting I should pay a deposit and if, in the worst case, the kitten dies before handover then I don't get my deposit back because the breeder still fed it while it was alive? The 'health and benefit' of the kitten are 100% the breeder's responsibility whilst still in the breeder's care.


I stand corrected about trading standards. 
I 110% agree with your post, well said. I was a fool a total fool, i knew the breeder so that wasn't a problem. We corresponded over this cat for months. I agree it isn't the best way to buy a cat. But i think with more and more cats coming from other countries this must be happening more and more often.
I have bred for over 25 years so probably lucky i have not been conned before. I no longer take deposits for my kittens, because if someone changes their mind i would rather they didn't have the kitten than only take it because there was money involved.
I sort of thought (wrongly obviously) that there was an honour between breeders. I take people at face value, which i realise is wrong again in EVERY walk of life.
I intend to take it further out of principle.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> When you went to see the girl you obviously went to view her in her pen i assume.
> 
> If that was me in the same sitution i would expect a cat who has been in cattery conditions to probably act that way and probably not as handleable as a cat brought up in the home plus you were a stranger to the cat.
> 
> ...


I would have thought that she would have adjusted too. The fact that after 8 days she hadn't eaten or drank despite a vit B injection. plus she was still lashing out.
I certainly didn't rush into things at all, the breeder was going to keep her initially and we had been in touch about this kitten for months.
I fail to see how the breeder has had any time wasted or hassle.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I stand corrected about trading standards.


You were partly right - they would get involved if the goods were misdescribed


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

As this kitten is SO petrified and not socialised at all I wouldn't have sold it (if it were I). You always hope there is honour amongst breeders, and breeders and new slaves, but sometimes it just doesn't work that way - it sucks but is unfortunately life. I would chase for the deposit in this case I think.


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## Chiantina (Oct 16, 2012)

If the kitten is 7 months old and has not settled within the 8 days you describe, maybe it just needs some more time?! Yes, it absolutely should have come better socialised but if the colour is as rare as you say and you have gone to so much trouble to this point, is it not worth persevering?!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The point i am trying to make is i only returned the cat on her advice and that of my vet.


This does put you in a much stronger position to take it further. I couldn't say for sure because there are no certainties if you get as far as a court but I would consider it an implied term that a pedigree kitten was reasonably socialised.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

My vet got bitten so i was lucky i didn't have a bigger bill!!


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2013)

havoc said:


> This sort of attitude smack of a breeder sailing so close to the edge that they border on BYB to me. Are you really suggesting I should pay a deposit and if, in the worst case, the kitten dies before handover then I don't get my deposit back because the breeder still fed it while it was alive? The 'health and benefit' of the kitten are 100% the breeder's responsibility whilst still in the breeder's care.


I was playing devil's advocate as to the possibility the £100 deposit might not actually be there to be refunded, at least not right away. I know I don't have £100 just sitting around I could give to someone at a moment's notice.

And no, I wasn't suggesting if a kitten dies before handover you don't get your deposit back. Where on earth have I said anything remotely like that? 
I was arguing that the deposit is part of the kitten's purchase price, a price the breeder comes about to cover the direct costs of raising those kittens and raising them well. Ergo, the deposit and remaining balance will have gone to the upkeep of said kitten.

A kitten dying is no-one's fault and the deposit should be returned.
A kitten unsuitable for homing because of behaviourable or socialising problems etc is the breeder's fault and the deposit should be returned.
A kitten that has not been introduced properly or is being returned because it doesn't suit the new owner's house or lifestyle, can be argued it's the purchaser's problem if they didn't insure against such issues. In which case the deposit might be difficult to get back.

There are obviously bigger issues here as the kitten is an older kitten,it doesn't sound like it was suitable for homing, and the purchaser knows the breeder and therefore can continue to contact them rather than the breeder fall off the face of the earth.

We may all know what is the right thing to do, but whether the right thing will happen is in dispute. It's up to the breeder whether they want to be a decent person or not, because other than them offering to refund then I don't see any way the purchaser will get the money back. It'd probably be pointless going to court for £100 because it costs money to do it anyway, and does the purchaser have the evidence needed to win the case?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I was arguing that the deposit is part of the kitten's purchase price


I agree. So why does a breeder get to keep it if the kitten is subsequently not purchased or returned?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

See this is where everybody is making the mistake of purchasing.
DEPOSIT...... is just a deposit, example if you purchased a sofa (not related) but by law it is exactly the same ruling, deposits hold the goods doesnt matter if an animal or furniture the law still applies exactly the same.
so deposit is not the word you need to be applying to with this breeder....
you need to apply PURCHASE PRICE.... definitely no mention of deposits.

Sally did you actually send a deposit or did you pay the full amount in one transaction as this is important to you.

If you made one payment then took the cat this in law states purchase price so the breeder by law would need to refund the whole purchase price.
see words and ways you do things would mean different things. x


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

i see what you mean, no i paid £100.00 deposit (as requested) by cheque


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

court wont help then sadly.
your only hope is to keep pestering the breeder in the hope she gets fed up and pays it back.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Did you say you were friends before this?


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

thank you for taking the time to help. 

To be honest i wouldn't care about the money i just keep thinking about the cat. When she took her back she was going out and put the cat in the boot of the car (in carrier) and it was in the boot with the parcel shelf in as well. She was howling poor thing now i'm the one who feels guilty.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Sally k said:


> thank you for taking the time to help.
> 
> To be honest i wouldn't care about the money i just keep thinking about the cat. When she took her back she was going out and put the cat in the boot of the car (in carrier) and it was in the boot with the parcel shelf in as well. She was howling poor thing now i'm the one who feels guilty.


Hopefully once the cat is back in her pen she will feel at home,i hope the breeder thinks twice about finding the cat a suitable home and is a bit more honest,but on the flip side maybe the breeder didnt know the cat wqould react like that as she probably wont have been shy with the woman who owned her.As she was agressive thats a bit different but i wonder if that was through fear.

Im sure she will be ok back at the breeders home.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

i think you are right, still no excuse to treat a cat like that though, i'm sure you or i wouldn't deposit a frightened cat in the boot of a car


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Sally k said:


> i think you are right, still no excuse to treat a cat like that though, i'm sure you or i wouldn't deposit a frightened cat in the boot of a car


Was she being rough with it or something as she was in a huff? I usually am a back seat passenger with cat by my side.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

There is no excuse for that behaviour, poor cat would have been frightened.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

no she was just in a hurry, the car had back seats and a passenger who could have sat with her. i just couldn't believe it. 

My 12 year old daughter had sat with her all the way just talking to her (between the tears). 

Guess they are just commodities to some breeders.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Sally k said:


> no she was just in a hurry, the car had back seats and a passenger who could have sat with her. i just couldn't believe it.
> 
> My 12 year old daughter had sat with her all the way just talking to her (between the tears).
> 
> Guess they are just commodities to some breeders.


Has she been in contact with you since leaving your house to dsay how the cat is?

Arrh poor cat.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Sadly there are breeders and then there are "breeders".
Hopefully you will find the right cat soon, unless you already have found one.


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## Chiantina (Oct 16, 2012)

I can't think of any any scenario when it would be acceptable to put a cat in the boot!! Estate cars and cages notwithstanding!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Sally k said:


> But i think with more and more cats coming from other countries this must be happening more and more often.


Over here many cats (pet and breeding) are not seen in person until collecting from the airport. And importing cats for breeding is very common here too, the vast majority of the time all goes well.

Sorry things didn't work out for you.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

thank you, you have all been very kind.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If you made one payment then took the cat this in law states purchase price so the breeder by law would need to refund the whole purchase price.


Could you expand on this please, including references. I'm confused.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I put my cats in the boot as well. No space in front with me and putting them in the backseat means they slide around and sometimes tip over into the 'leg space', mewing constantly. Plus the mewing stresses up the driver. They are quiet in the back and there's an anti slip mat so they don't slide around. 

Anyway, about the deposit itself, my policy is I do not return deposits if owners change their minds and what-not. I also don't return deposits if the new owners want to return the cat because they are not 'lap sitters' or anything like that. However, of course if the kitten dies/is ill/ I don't have a good feeling, I will return it. This is all stated in the contract. In your case, on principle, I will not return the deposit. HOWEVER, because it's only 100 pounds and not a normal situation, I would do so simply to get rid of all the trouble. 

Good luck with your next cat


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

havoc said:


> Could you expand on this please, including references. I'm confused.


2 Years ago i had a similar problem, consulted a solicitor who told me that if i had paid the full amount in one transaction and the word "deposit" wasnt written anywhere then nobody can show a "deposit" was made but the full asking price, in which case the full amount would be payable back.
If however a "deposit" was paid or in any writing stated "deposit of £££", then this is to hold goods so in effect that deposit would be non refundable.

I cant give references as i was told this by my solicitor.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Were you dealing with a private sale or buying something from a business?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Buying from a business.
I would guess that breeder to breeder would be classed as a business though.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I would guess that breeder to breeder would be classed as a business though.


If that's true I would strongly suggest the the OP reports the breeder to HMRC. You can't have it both ways if you claim to be a hobby breeder. You can't claim your time needs paid for etc. and you can't act as a business when it suits and not when it doesn't.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

_In your case, on principle, I will not return the deposit_

Why? i was sold a "house" cat that clearly hadn't been in a house for a very long time. lets be clear about this the cat was ONLY returned because it wasn't eating or drinking and starting to get dehydrated (vets words not mine).
Also the breeder said the best thing was to return her. This i did for the wellbeing of the cat, not because she no longer went with the wallpaper!!!!


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> Has she been in contact with you since leaving your house to dsay how the cat is?
> 
> Arrh poor cat.


no, i wish i knew. i keep thinking about her all the time. I really did think i was doing the best for the kitten


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Sally: Because you accepted the terms and conditions (non-refundable deposit).


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

pipje said:


> Sally: Because you accepted the terms and conditions (non-refundable deposit).


How did i accept them? i was NEVER told the deposit was non-refundable? nothing in writing or on the web site. First i knew it wasn't refundable was when she told me i wasn't having it back


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

You didn't say that in your original post. 

If she didn't say that it's non-refundable, then sure you can go ahead and fight it out. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it. I personally, would've returned it, simply to avoid this.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I personally think it absolutely stinks, the breeder retaining the deposit in these circumstances. I have little to no idea of how a court might view such a thing but to me, ethically and morally, if I had a kitten returned to me under these circumstances then in my mind the deposit (whether it was initially stated to be refundable or otherwise) becomes part of the total amount paid which I would return in full.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Sally.... I would pursue this matter. Does this breeder have a prefix, if so she is classed as a business, i know this to be true.
If you have a medical record that the cat needed vet treatment this does but you on a higher ground.
Write to this breeder giving 14 days to return your money, then tell this breeder failure to comply you will enforce through the court.
Obviously private sales are completely different but a business transaction will be on your side.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> Sally.... I would pursue this matter. Does this breeder have a prefix, if so she is classed as a business, i know this to be true.
> If you have a medical record that the cat needed vet treatment this does but you on a higher ground.
> Write to this breeder giving 14 days to return your money, then tell this breeder failure to comply you will enforce through the court.
> Obviously private sales are completely different but a business transaction will be on your side.


I have done this today, sent it signed for, as yes she does have a prefix. I haven't got a receipt but 4 emails promising to put it in the post. Funnily enough i doubt i'll get it now.
I have kept a copy of her pedigree which even at the time i questioned as it was dated 2010 the kitten was born in 2012. But in fairness it could have been a mistake.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

In that case she is running a business and with emails to say she will return by email she has then entered an agreement.
Stick to your guns and done the right way this breeder will have to pay you back.
There is a free website forum called legal beagles, maybe register state the facts and they will give you good advise. They can also help you with relevant forms aswell and tell you exactly how to word letters to the breeder if you ask nicely. Good luck.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

What I mean to say, is deposits need not be returned if it is stated in the contract but if the breeder wants to, fine. Thing is, it is just hard to draw the line because if one thing is negotiable, then everything is! 

My queen left the nest with a clause which stated that if she dies because of HCM/PKD within one year, we will get a new kitten/partial refund. Now, IF she did die from it at the age of 1 year and 1 day, I would think that it's nice if my breeder gives me a partial refund/new healthy kitten but if she didn't, I wouldn't really push it either because it was something I had knowingly accepted. 

If something like this happened to one of my kittens (as in the ones I had 'sold', after the guarantee had ended), then I would give a partial refund/new healthy kitten IF I had the money at that time. However, if I was in a bad position at that time, it might not be possible. In other words, it's the perogative of the breeder to decide if it is something which he/she is willing/able to do or not. Not so much of a legal responsibility. 

Anyhow, in your case, you didn't have a contract nor was it stated that the deposit was refundable. You said you live very faraway from the breeder. Also, you stated that she had put the cat in the boot so I assume she had driven to pick the kitten up from your place. Perhaps you can go halves and reach a compromise? Please take note that I am NOT siding the breeder. Only that, often catteries aren't a business but more of a hobby. Things get a bit more personal than average and obviously, there's pretty much no money to be made (unless it's a backyard breeder).


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

You should check out the pedigree too. It is always possible that it's a pedigree from a different cat??


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

It has to be written that deposits are non refundable though.
Also if you have applied for a prefix to breed any animals then you are classed as a business.

If there is anything written to say deposits non refundable or its a private sale then the law is different.

say its a car we are dealing with, if going through a garage and the engine fell out within a reasonable amount of time the garage is at fault, if you purchased the car from a private sale and the engine fell out up the road, thats your fault as its classed as sold as seen. Trading Standard rules apply to pets aswell.

Sally you could also contact trading Standards, they will give you free advise and in some cases will make a phone call or a letter to the breeder for you.
Court will cost money and time and if you did lose then lose a lot of money, however if you did win the case the costs will be for the breeder.

As you already have emails stating its in the post that is now entered into an agreement that its in the post.

I cant add anymore than i already have stated as i dont have any more information to provide. Contact TS and they will tell you.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Im wondering if she kept the deposit for her petrol costs if it wa that far it could well have tallied up that amount of petrol.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

i have contacted TS and they advised i go through the small claims court, it only costs £15.00 so i'm doing it out of principle.

I can understand what you say about petrol costs, however this was outside her house! she was on her way out. She said she didn't have time to take her in so put her in the boot.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

So she went out and left the cat in the boot after a long journey! Appalling!!!! Of course she had time to pop her back inside!  It takes what, 2 mins or so?

_ I have to admit to popping the cat boxes in the boot (no cover to boot it's an estate and the dog goes in the back behind a dog guard) occasionally, when I have to (there is a non slip mat). It's normally when I have 4 boxes and kids and therefore no room n the front. Usually only down to the vets 5 mins away and I talk to them all the time. If it's just me and one cat box they go on the front seat next to me._


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Agree. Odd that she can't even pop the cat in. It's only a few minutes. Just strange. Is this an established breeder?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I didnt click on that thats what she had done that is no way to treat a stressed out cat oh dear poor kitty.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Forgot to add:

Sally: why don't you tell her you plan on going to the small claims court? she will probably prefer to avoid this and will refund you. Less work for you then!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Sally did the breeder collect the cat from your home? Im just trying to work out how knew she left cat in the boot if she collected the cat from you.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Does this breeder have a prefix, if so she is classed as a business, i know this to be true.


Classed as a business by whom? How do you know it to be true?


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

pipje said:


> Forgot to add:
> 
> Sally: why don't you tell her you plan on going to the small claims court? she will probably prefer to avoid this and will refund you. Less work for you then!


I have, put it all in a letter, giving her 14 days to pay. i sent it signed for. just wish i knew the kitten was ok.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> Sally did the breeder collect the cat from your home? Im just trying to work out how knew she left cat in the boot if she collected the cat from you.


I took the cat to her, i was 20 minutes early and she was just going out. she then drove off with the kitten in the boot


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have, put it all in a letter, giving her 14 days to pay


Good. Whatever anyone tells you this is a civil matter between two private parties and your next step is to file a claim in the county courts.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Sally k said:


> I took the cat to her, i was 20 minutes early and she was just going out. she then drove off with the kitten in the boot


Oh right i thought she had come to you..forget what i said about her petrol costs then.

She should have defo put the stressed cat back in its pen i would take what..a couple of mins.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

havoc said:


> Classed as a business by whom? How do you know it to be true?


I was about to ask this too as the comment concerned me, I don't get the relationship between registering kittens with a set name and being a business as I am most definitely NOT a business.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I was about to ask this too as the comment concerned me


There's no need to be concerned. It's rubbish. It may be opinion given by a legal professional but if so it's based in ignorance.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

It probably depends on the country. Here, a cattery isn't necessarily considered a business (unless it makes money) but I know in Belgium, to register a cattery with a feline organisation means you also have to apply for a VAT registration number so I suppose that would be classified as a 'business'.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

pipje said:


> It probably depends on the country. Here, a cattery isn't necessarily considered a business (unless it makes money)


I'm not sure where 'here' is for you... but many business don't make money.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

In the UK the very word implies a business premises as in boarding cattery and hobby breeders are not running catteries. In other countries, especially the USA, the term is applied to most breeding households, even someone with a single cat.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

I bought a kitten from a breeder, saw it at 6 weeks (in the house) and left a deposit. When I returned at 13 weeks the kitten had been outside in a pen the whole time since I reserved it and not handled at all, it was wild and aggressive when handled. However I did really want it so I took the kitten. It took about a week for it to eat and drink more than enough to stay alive and was probably dehydrated but a cat is unlikely to kill itself when food and water are available. 6 months down the line she is now friendly although always a little nervous so they do come round but it can take a lot of time and perseverance. 
My contract states that the buyer is happy with the kitten in the condition they see it in upon collection, therefore if they then changed their mind I would not refund the deposit.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

flosskins said:


> My contract states that the buyer is happy with the kitten in the condition they see it in upon collection, therefore if they then changed their mind I would not refund the deposit.


I don't quite understand/am missing something. If they were happy with the kitten upon collection presumably the full amount (on top of an already received deposit) would be paid at that time - if the kitten was returned to you, would you make a full refund, including the deposit amount? And if a prospective owner wasn't happy with the kitten upon arrival to collect, would you then refund their deposit?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Havoc....do you have legal knowledge?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Havoc....do you have legal knowledge?


A little


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> My contract states that the buyer is happy with the kitten in the condition they see it in upon collection, therefore if they then changed their mind I would not refund the deposit.


Do you have any exceptions? What if the change of mind is because the kitten is shown to be sick within a very short time - say within an incubation period?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

havoc said:


> A little


Havoc, if you can prove to me the advise by a solicitor is wrong i will happily delete my opinion on the thread.
All i know is i paid a solicitor for his opinion regarding a hobby or business and was told if somebody purchases a cat intending to breed then sold a kittens for £400 each then you are classed as a business.

I am only posting on what i have been informed of.

I have found 2 other forum threads stating exactly the same thing, will find links and see what you have to say on that matter.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

It's something I was advised to put in to say the buyer is happy to purchase the kitten and hasn't been coerced or pressured into it. If the buyer was not happy before taking the kitten they would not receive their deposit back as it is non refundable unless the kitten dies or is unwell or I decide it is not suitable. If they returned it within a certain time I would refund the price minus the deposit if they just didn't like/want it, but if it was sick it would depends on the circumstances.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

With regards to being classed as a business I don't register/declare anything but I do keep a track of all income and outgoings so if I was questioned or investigated I have all the records required. Not that they show profit as I'm sure anybody doing it properly will find!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> All i know is i paid a solicitor *for his opinion* regarding a hobby or business and was told if somebody purchases a cat intending to breed then sold a kittens for £400 each then you are classed as a business


Each situation is individual and I'm honestly amazed a solicitor would make such a general statement.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have found 2 other forum threads stating exactly the same thing, will find links and see what you have to say on that matter


Find me the judgements for properly defended cases. Tell me which court and the case references. They are the only things that matter.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

flosskins said:


> I bought a kitten from a breeder, saw it at 6 weeks (in the house) and left a deposit. When I returned at 13 weeks the kitten had been outside in a pen the whole time since I reserved it and not handled at all, it was wild and aggressive when handled. However I did really want it so I took the kitten. It took about a week for it to eat and drink more than enough to stay alive and was probably dehydrated but a cat is unlikely to kill itself when food and water are available. 6 months down the line she is now friendly although always a little nervous so they do come round but it can take a lot of time and perseverance.
> My contract states that the buyer is happy with the kitten in the condition they see it in upon collection, therefore if they then changed their mind I would not refund the deposit.


I think my case was different as the kitten was 7 months of age, and my vet confirmed she was dehydrated


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I have pm'd you the links, will wait to see what you think.
if i have given advise not suitable to this situation i will gladly delete my posts.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Only one of those links is working for me and it's about someone in a Housing Association property breeding dogs. There is legislation specific to dog breeding and HAs can make their own rules as can any landlord.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

flosskins said:


> It's something I was advised to put in to say the buyer is happy to purchase the kitten and hasn't been coerced or pressured into it. If the buyer was not happy before taking the kitten they would not receive their deposit back as it is non refundable unless the kitten dies or is unwell or I decide it is not suitable. If they returned it within a certain time I would refund the price minus the deposit if they just didn't like/want it, but if it was sick it would depends on the circumstances.


It's interesting to read the different ways that breeders handle this sort of thing, especially as the way I've done things hasn't changed in a long time. With so many breeders using contracts and specific, sometimes quite detailed, 'wordings' even regarding deposits, you (well, I) begin to wonder if should do more in that way. Thing is, I guess you don't bother *until* a dispute or certain situation arises.

It has always been contained within my deposit receipt that the deposit is fully refundable if for any reason the prospective new owner is not entirely happy with the kitten (or anything else relating to my cats, etc) upon collection. In reality, though I've never had to do so, if that happened I would hand the deposit back there and then. I'm not quite what I would do if a kitten was returned to me simply because they didn't like it or for some kind of feckless reason.. it's never happened... yet!


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

Sally k said:


> I think my case was different as the kitten was 7 months of age, and my vet confirmed she was dehydrated


To a certain extent I agree it changes the situation however I would expect that an older kitten would take even longer to settle as it has had longer to accustom itself to its original surroundings. As with many species (humans included) the younger they are (once weaned and developed) the quicker they bounce back and adapt to their new environment. I suspect a vet would have said my kitten was also dehydrated but it would depend on if it was to a dangerous level. In most situations unless there is a serious mental or physical problem if there is water available an animal will not let itself die through dehydration.
What reason did the breeder give for suggesting you return the kitten? Was it the breeder or yourself who suggested it?


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Granted, this is NOT applicable to the UK but just for information. This article was published by a Dutch feline organisation (Saint Pro Cat), who paid a lawyer to find out this information. 

I put it through Google Translate so it's a bit wonky but you probably get the gist:

---
It is very important that people who want to buy a cat, to be sure that they have found a trusted address for the purchase of a cat. SAINT pro Cat would ask that its members a familiar address.

And a half years ago we, SAINT pro Cat, therefore looking for a well-founded sale coming to cat breeders. We have signed a lawyer to find out what the status is of the cat breeder in today's society.

In the Netherlands is very much governed by laws, even when it comes to buying and selling. In the Civil Code, the rights of the purchaser of a product regulated in Book 7: Special Agreements. Also called the new Consumer called that by May 1, 2003 is in force. This law states that a consumer buying a product from a non consumer gets 6 months warranty on this product.

Some kitten buyers therefore believe that 6 months warranty also applies to them unconditionally. This is wrong! There is a (very important) limitation built: the selling party must act in the exercise of a profession or business and the buyer may not precisely in the exercise of a profession or business deal!

In other words, if someone has a cat buys a person who commercially breed, then these articles, and in particular Articles 17 and 18 ("the article should satisfy the properties put the buyer was entitled to expect") and 21 ("potential requirements of the buyer if the item does not meet those characteristics ").

If someone has a cat at a private or hobbyist who buys an occasional litter, then these articles are not applicable! When a lover cat breeds and does not profit, he is a match to the kitten buyer, especially if the kitten buyer is also a breeder of cats. Both parties are then assumed much of the material to be able to know at the time of purchase. It is unlike a shop or a company no profit or differences in knowledge, in a shop or company assumes the law more knowledge than a consumer who buys.

In a purchase, the seller of the cat always indicate that he or she is a lover as a breeder, so that it is a hobby and not about business sobriety. Therefore it is important to include the introductory statement to give to the contract so that the buyer can get an idea of &#8203;&#8203;the intentions of the breeder.

For some, the most careful documentation might raise questions about the extent of business temperance. But it is precisely for this company temperance to contradict and to demonstrate that the breeder has a lover, so equal in this.

This contract is also possible ambiguities and resulting problems between the seller and buyer to avoid. Too often, we note that things may not be agreed and therefore an annoying situation. Or that things not said or not well understood so there always difficult situations arise, which would not help anyone.

By using a good purchase, both parties know what it is about and where they have to hold. If either is not observed, the association may only be consulted for advice and mediation. If this does not work, then a right turn on.

However, a good purchase to use can often be avoided! Therefore we advise you to purchase this as a breeder to use.
Caution!
The mention of information agreements or on the website or in advertisements as: we only breed with healthy cats or kittens we breed only healthy, it is not wise. Because of this, when problems occur and allow a lawsuit is filed, the court will give the buyer always right to health or premature death. No breeder can guarantee that with healthy animals bred, or only sells healthy kittens. A breeder can do his best to show that his hobby very seriously. This can he demonstrated by the cats to be tested for diseases that are now well-known. And of course the cats with him / her live a good life and deliver to ensure a good home and proper nutrition.

The mention of the following may give the impression of business temperance, so profit:

&#8226; mention on websites that available kittens are sold.
&#8226; widely advertise or cattery with kittens

If problems occur, the fan status of the breeder be questioned by the judge if the breeder throughout the year many kittens breed and also it advertises on its website or sales / brokerage websites. If the complainant makes here than printing and as evidence argues that this is no longer a hobby, it is very strong.

Section 1.1 and 1.2 - Chip

As an association we advise breeders to have their cats a chip needs. Why? Because the chip gets a cat a unique identicatienummer and can always be proven by testing that indeed this cat really is / was tested. If there is only one race and color is, there can be multiple cats to qualify.

Point 2 - Hand Money

Specify at point 2 if the buyer does not or earnest money paid. If he / she does earnest money paid, do the rest at point 2 shall not be required.
When there is earnest money is paid, the seller must always be initial for receipt and mention the amount.

Point 3 - Use / Housing / Health / Guarantees

Give to 3.1 at all three points as appropriate.

Recommended method:

When there kitten buyers are seriously considering getting a kitten for you to purchase, give them always beforehand the declaration and the agreement to bring home quietly reading.

When you next visit the questions that the buyer has to answer and discuss.

When using the purchase agreement, the prior declaration in duplicate by the buyer to be signed. 1 copy gets the buyer, the seller retains one copy.

When you buy transit use, nothing in the agreement and / or explanation changed. If you do so, then the validity of this agreement negated.

General

Obviously the sale on arrival only valid when it is completed, where necessary, initialed and dated, and signed by both parties.
----


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

The breeder suggested i took her back as well as the vet. I think the main problem was, yes the kitten wasn't a house cat but had lived all its life in a cattery, added to this she (the breeder) was the only one who ever had contact with her.

When she sugested i take her back she told me she had been upset by a new arrival in the cattery and hadn't eaten for four days previous to her coming to me. The day before she went back (day after vet visit) she was very lethargic and i just wasn't prepared to put her through anymore.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Sally,

Please don't feel bad about it. You obviously gave your best go and unfortunately, the kitten just couldn't get used to it! Sometimes things just don't work out and you just have to get your deposit back and try to find a better match for your cat family.


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

pipje said:


> Hi Sally,
> 
> Please don't feel bad about it. You obviously gave your best go and unfortunately, the kitten just couldn't get used to it! Sometimes things just don't work out and you just have to get your deposit back and try to find a better match for your cat family.


Thank you, i still feel really guilty, but i know we all tried so hard.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

well 12 days in total is a really long time for a cat not to eat i think you did the right thing returning the cat.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Sally, for what it's worth, I've returned two kittens to breeders over the years, both purchased at a point in my (cat breeding) hobby when I really should have known better - both kittens were lovely but it was a triumph of hope over experience in my case. To balance that, I did take a kitten from a breeder/friend who was also raised completely outdoors but she'd been handled/played with on a daily basis, and fortunately seemed to have a very outgoing, people oriented nature so the transition wasn't too stressful at all.

I also tried very hard with the other two kittens but after a number of weeks decided it really wasn't going to work in an averagely busy family home with children... added to which both girls were intended as breeding queens and their highly agitated state and nervousness worried me in that respect.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Sally, for what it's worth, I've returned two kittens to breeders over the years, both purchased at a point in my (cat breeding) hobby when I really should have known better - both kittens were lovely but it was a triumph of hope over experience in my case. To balance that, I did take a kitten from a breeder/friend who was also raised completely outdoors but she'd been handled/played with on a daily basis, and fortunately seemed to have a very outgoing, people oriented nature so the transition wasn't too stressful at all.
> 
> I also tried very hard with the other two kittens but after a number of weeks decided it really wasn't going to work in an averagely busy family home with children... added to which both girls were intended as breeding queens and their highly agitated state and nervousness worried me in that respect.


Out of interest did you get all your money back?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> Out of interest did you get all your money back?


One of the kittens was a planned exchange to help one another out with some different breed lines so she was simply returned to her breeder. The other kitten yes, I received a full refund. She was only a month or so off adulthood and, being generous to the breeder, she did say that the kitten was a "little nervous" - which turned out to be the understatement of the century. I think the breeder knew she was on a wing and prayer which is why she seemed happy to return the purchase price.

You do feel pretty awful (not to mention stupid in my case).


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> One of the kittens was a planned exchange to help one another out with some different breed lines so she was simply returned to her breeder. The other kitten yes, I received a full refund. She was only a month or so off adulthood and, being generous to the breeder, she did say that the kitten was a "little nervous" - which turned out to be the understatement of the century. I think the breeder knew she was on a wing and prayer which is why she seemed happy to return the purchase price.
> 
> You do feel pretty awful (not to mention stupid in my case).


Interesting..thanx


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## Sally k (Feb 3, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> One of the kittens was a planned exchange to help one another out with some different breed lines so she was simply returned to her breeder. The other kitten yes, I received a full refund. She was only a month or so off adulthood and, being generous to the breeder, she did say that the kitten was a "little nervous" - which turned out to be the understatement of the century. I think the breeder knew she was on a wing and prayer which is why she seemed happy to return the purchase price.
> 
> You do feel pretty awful (not to mention stupid in my case).


i bought mine for show breed, there was no way i was going to do either with her. When i said to the breeder i didn't feel i could show her because of how nervous i still felt she would be even if she did calm down, she said "well I could show her, you just have to show her who's boss" 
I know who is boss in our house and they have 4 legs!!!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> she said "well I could show her, you just have to show her who's boss"


a real cat lover then :lol:
How many times do we as breeders say buyers should never buy a kitten out of pity because you're just encouraging bad practice? Sally, please don't feel bad about this. It's hard, it's unbelievably hard but it is the right path.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I'm not sure where 'here' is for you... but many business don't make money.


A good accountant will ensure a business doesn't make money


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

catcoonz said:


> Havoc, if you can prove to me the advise by a solicitor is wrong i will happily delete my opinion on the thread.
> All i know is i paid a solicitor for his opinion regarding a hobby or business and was told if somebody purchases a cat intending to breed then sold a kittens for £400 each then you are classed as a business.
> 
> I am only posting on what i have been informed of.
> ...


This is very different to saying owning a prefix makes you a business.

I also bought my girl with the intention of showing & keeping her as a pet primarily. Breeding was never set in stone until she gave birth to live kittens.


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