# They are at it with the selkirks now.



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Just found this and though not my breed i just dont see no selkirk there nor variant take a look,what do you think?

Beautiful pedigree kittens | Lancing, West Sussex | Pets4Homes


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_if i hadnt read what they were i would not of known from the pictures,they dont look like they have any selkirk in them to me. Is it ok to cross them to the british short hair then, i dont know much about them really.Only what i have read from spid and soupie. _


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

colliemerles said:


> _if i hadnt read what they were i would not of known from the pictures,they dont look like they have any selkirk in them to me. Is it ok to cross them to the british short hair then, i dont know much about them really.Only what i have read from spid and soupie. _


I believe it is allowed.Not too sure if its needed now i think they end up too brit looking but dont quote me.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

I can't see a Selkirk in there but they do look like BSH.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

They're out crossed to BSH here, first gen (of any breed) tend to take after one side of the cross, I'd not expect them to look very Selkirky based on the outcrosses I've seen, you may get some in the litter looking less BSH-ish


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> They're out crossed to BSH here, first gen (of any breed) tend to take after one side of the cross, I'd not expect them to look very Selkirky based on the outcrosses I've seen, you may get some in the litter looking less BSH-ish


i must admit i do like the really brit curly looking ones,however i do realise that thts not the correct breed standard.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Yes it is allowable - though why she isn't registering them is once again beyond me. If she can why not. They are very young still but do seem to have decent muzzles.They aren't awful examples (and I can see the curly blue cream one is curly) but they aren't the best either. We do still need new genes so yes it is still done. BUt . . . you have to cross with a bad BSH in order to fix the right components. If you use a good British (and Dad looks nice) you end up with too British a look. These kittens are a little too young to tell really whether they will be good or mediocre.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> Yes it is allowable - though why she isn't registering them is once again beyond me. If she can why not. They are very young still but do seem to have decent muzzles.They aren't awful examples (and I can see the curly blue cream one is curly) but they aren't the best either. We do still need new genes so yes it is still done. BUt . . . you have to cross with a bad BSH in order to fix the right components. If you use a good British (and Dad looks nice) you end up with too British a look. These kittens are a little too young to tell really whether they will be good or mediocre.


Glad you came along,spid so can you see mum what is she? ie a curly?

I cant see why shes not registering either and it normally suggests something not right,hmmm.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Mum has to be a curly with Dad being a BSH. Curly is a dominant gene. SO two straights CAN NOT give a curly in Selkirks - I think the Devon Rex gene is recessive.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> Mum has to be a curly with Dad being a BSH. Curly is a dominant gene. SO two straights CAN NOT give a curly in Selkirks - I think the Devon Rex gene is recessive.


Looking at her pic again shes not got alot of curl has she,the ones iv seen were very obvious.Maybe shes just not the best example.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I cant see why shes not registering either and it normally suggests something not right,hmmm.


If it's been an allowable cross and she's decided they aren't good enough to breed on from I don't see why the lack of registration is a big deal. Seems like they're just going before 13 weeks with first vacs done. My vet charges up front for the full course with kittens. If hers does the same it won't have been a cost cutting issue and they certainly look well enough fed and well looked after.

It could all be desperately sinister of course but it isn't a given. The kittens look nice enough for the price being asked on the face of it.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> If it's been an allowable cross and she's decided they aren't good enough to breed on from I don't see why the lack of registration is a big deal. Seems like they're just going before 13 weeks with first vacs done. My vet charges up front for the full course with kittens. If hers does the same it won't have been a cost cutting issue and they certainly look well enough fed and well looked after.
> 
> It could all be desperately sinister of course but it isn't a given. The kittens look nice enough for the price being asked on the face of it.


I asked the lady and she said she isnt registering them as she wants them to go to pet homes so you could be right with your thoughts.

I still dont get why not register them though cause its not that much,guess im talking from what id do id still register my litters even if i didnt feel they were the best examples.

Our vaccinations i can either pay for the full course or have it split they do it like this as they have come to realise some kittens are in their new homes before the second vac,so i pay £20 for 1st vacc then £10 for second vacc im rather happy with this deal,they give i think its 10% breeders discount.

Out of interest what are everyones thought on kittens leaving after 1st vacc? Do you feel its a good age and safe?

As of yet all mine have always left at 13 weeks but i did once buy from a well known breeder at 8/9weeks as she homopathically(sp) vaccinated.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> Out of interest what are everyones thought on kittens leaving after 1st vacc? Do you feel its a good age and safe?
> 
> As of yet all mine have always left at 13 weeks but i did once buy from a well known breeder at 8/9weeks as she homopathically(sp) vaccinated.


I joined the new GCCF breeder scheme which means I cannot let my kittens go before being fully vaccinated. It's not actually something I've ever done anyway (beginning to wonder why I joined that scheme). I've often thought that my kittens were more than ready for new homes at around 10/11 weeks but for the sake of another 3 weeks I'd rather not take even a small risk. For me, it would throw up problems anyway such as with vac's (same thing as Havoc).


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I joined the new GCCF breeder scheme which means I cannot let my kittens go before being fully vaccinated. It's not actually something I've ever done anyway (beginning to wonder why I joined that scheme). I've often thought that my kittens were more than ready for new homes at around 10/11 weeks but for the sake of another 3 weeks I'd rather not take even a small risk. For me, it would throw up problems anyway such as with vac's (same thing as Havoc).


Thanx for your input.

Another question have you considered not registering for one reason or another.

This year i did have a litter of 2 born and thought about not registering for that reason (filling in all those numbers on the registration form for just 2 kittens) however i still ended up registering them.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> Thanx for your input.
> 
> Another question have you considered not registering for one reason or another.
> 
> This year i did have a litter of 2 born and thought about not registering for that reason (filling in all those numbers on the registration form for just 2 kittens) however i still ended up registering them.


Believe me, I've considered it all  I can get pretty fed up with GCCF (various reasons, won't bore you with those) and wondering why I bother registering my kittens at all - that's particularly since I've been able to check on-line and see, with my own eyes what I'd suspected all along - only a tiny percentage of people who have had a kitten from me ever transfer it into their name.

At the other extreme I signed up to the breeder scheme when it was launched. In truth, that was more a result of gentle pressure being exerted to "give it a go" from a friend of a friend who's been instrumental in setting up the scheme. As things stand, I'm not happy AT all with one particular aspect of the scheme and I most likely won't re-subscribe next year.

As far as not registering kittens at all goes, yes, I've considered that. I came to the conclusion a while back that anyone who is 'dodgy' is going to breed from a cat *regardless* of whether it has active. non-active or no registration whatsoever. I am fussy and picky in the extreme who I sell my kittens to. If I can't trust my judgment after 30 years when can I? But here I am, still registering every kitten I breed but often wondering why.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Believe me, I've considered it all  I can get pretty fed up with GCCF (various reasons, won't bore you with those) and wondering why I bother registering my kittens at all - that's particularly since I've been able to check on-line and see, with my own eyes what I'd suspected all along - only a tiny percentage of people who have had a kitten from me ever transfer it into their name.
> 
> At the other extreme I signed up to the breeder scheme when it was launched. In truth, that was more a result of gentle pressure being exerted to "give it a go" from a friend of a friend who's been instrumental in setting up the scheme. As things stand, I'm not happy AT all with one particular aspect of the scheme and I most likely won't re-subscribe next year.
> 
> As far as not registering kittens at all goes, yes, I've considered that. I came to the conclusion a while back that anyone who is 'dodgy' is going to breed from a cat *regardless* of whether it has active. non-active or no registration whatsoever. I am fussy and picky in the extreme who I sell my kittens to. If I can't trust my judgment after 30 years when can I? But here I am, still registering every kitten I breed but often wondering why.


When i think of 'why' i guess its good to get your name out there.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I suppose I register kittens whatever the quality because I believe that even a pet cat should have the absolute proof that they are what we say it is. Just because it goes to a pet home, doesn't mean it is any less worthy of a lovely certificate to prove they are what we say they are (and it doesn't cost much so why not). 

I like to think all my kittens are worth it. 

Even if she does send them away a little early I would hope she give the owners the opportunity to register them themselves.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> I suppose I register kittens whatever the quality because I believe that even a pet cat should have the absolute proof that they are what we say it is. Just because it goes to a pet home, doesn't mean it is any less worthy of a lovely certificate to prove they are what we say they are (and it doesn't cost much so why not).
> 
> I like to think all my kittens are worth it.
> 
> Even if she does send them away a little early I would hope she give the owners the opportunity to register them themselves.


I was thinking that she could let them go a bit early and still register them as you say it not much.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

spid said:


> I suppose I register kittens whatever the quality because I believe that even a pet cat should have the absolute proof that they are what we say it is. Just because it goes to a pet home, doesn't mean it is any less worthy of a lovely certificate to prove they are what we say they are (and it doesn't cost much so why not).
> 
> I like to think all my kittens are worth it.
> 
> Even if she does send them away a little early I would hope she give the owners the opportunity to register them themselves.


Spid, did you join the GCCF breeder scheme and what are your thoughts on it?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Yep for me, registering isn't about active or non active (irrelevant when you early neuter) but about treating each kitten the best you can and why without registration just because it isn't shown? Or bred from?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I have known perfectly good breeders who have let the odd kitten go to friends at around 11 weeks for individual good reason. I don't think it's something I'd ever do but I don't think it's a capital offence and I don't think it harms the kitten *as long as the subsequent vaccination is done as it should be*.

I believe the reason some people don't register the kittens in a situation like this stems from the belief that has grown of 'registered' breeders and exactly what registration of kittens means. Breeders believe that if they don't register the kittens then there won't be any GCCF record and therefore it won't matter if the kittens go a bit 'early'. It's all baloney anyway. The 13 week issue is only a recommendation so the breeder isn't breaking any rules. Whether or not the kitten is registered is meaningless. Anyone breeding from a GCCF registered cat is subject to GCCF rules. Doesn't matter if they are, or are not, a prefix holder. Doesn't matter if they choose to register the kittens or not, the rules still apply and the recommendations aren't rules. It's amazing how many breeders claim to be 'registered' breeders because they bought a prefix and yet don't know the system at all.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> Yep for me, registering isn't about active or non active (irrelevant when you early neuter) but about treating each kitten the best you can and why without registration just because it sin't shown? Or bred from?


I was doing some googling the other day and came across the elastic band method in neutering toms ,i cant see that taking off though lol  Iv done it before mind on a lamb at college,you should see the other way they did the lambs,sharp knife,slit sac,pull out cord/balls,and slice!:eek6: No pain relief of nothing.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> I was thinking that she could let them go a bit early and still register them as you say it not much.


UP until I was recently corrected on this forum, I thought it was a rule, not just a recommendation that kittens had to have both vaccinations before leaving for their new homes when they were GCCF registered.

This was what I had been advised by both the stud owner I use and the breeder of my Devon Rex girl - I think there are a lot of breeders out there who think they are breaking GCCF "rules" if they register their kittens and then let them go at 9 weeks 1 vaccination. As gskinner says a lot of people dont seem to be bothered or understand what the registration certificate is, BYBs do so well because they produce pedigree trees that the average buyers seems to think is proof of the cat being "pedigree" , so why registered if you are intending to home at 9 weeks, especially if you think you are breaking "rules"


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

spid said:


> Yep for me, registering isn't about active or non active (irrelevant when you early neuter) but about treating each kitten the best you can and why without registration just because it sin't shown? Or bred from?


I can't feel that treating each kitten the best I can has anything to do with whether I register or not and whether the kitten goes to its new home with a piece of white card supplied by GCCF. The registration, for me, was always purely for the benefit of the new owner and (supposedly) gave them the confidence that the kitten was actually what I said it was.

I'd always believed that one of the reasons that the majority of people who approached me for a (pet) kitten was because I state, amonst other things, GCCF registered. But but actually turns out not to be the case.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Even if she does send them away a little early I would hope she give the owners the opportunity to register them themselves.


Hope? Just hope? If she doesn't then she has broken a rule. She must provide the correct paperwork to enable them to do so or risk disciplinary action. The age at which these kittens leave her doesn't negate that rule.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> I have known perfectly good breeders who have let the odd kitten go to friends at around 11 weeks for individual good reason. I don't think it's something I'd ever do but I don't think it's a capital offence and I don't think it harms the kitten *as long as the subsequent vaccination is done as it should be*.
> 
> I believe the reason some people don't register the kittens in a situation like this stems from the belief that has grown of 'registered' breeders and exactly what registration of kittens means. Breeders believe that if they don't register the kittens then there won't be any GCCF record and therefore it won't matter if the kittens go a bit 'early'. It's all baloney anyway. The 13 week issue is only a recommendation so the breeder isn't breaking any rules. Whether or not the kitten is registered is meaningless. Anyone breeding from a GCCF registered cat is subject to GCCF rules. Doesn't matter if they are, or are not, a prefix holder. Doesn't matter if they choose to register the kittens or not, the rules still apply and the recommendations aren't rules. It's amazing how many breeders claim to be 'registered' breeders because they bought a prefix and yet don't know the system at all.


Im guilty of saying 'registered breeder' in my ads mainly cause people understand it i figure they hopefully see this breeder is at least trying to do good.However i am aware it is very easy to get hold of a prefix so any old bkb could get on if they wanted.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Im guilty of saying 'registered breeder' in my ads mainly cause people understand it i figure they hopefully see this breeder is at least trying to do good.


I wish I could go along with the idea that those who choose to become members of the GCCF, however briefly, all do so with the right motives. Sadly experience says otherwise and it has become much, much worse over the years. The vast majority join a club for the minimum time necessary to get a prefix application in, never even attend a breed club show, certainly never help out at one and never have a structured breeding programme. They're quick enough to come out with all the trite phrases mind you such as 'I'm doing it to improve the breed'.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> I wish I could go along with the idea that those who choose to become members of the GCCF, however briefly, all do so with the right motives. Sadly experience says otherwise and it has become much, much worse over the years. The vast majority join a club for the minimum time necessary to get a prefix application in, never even attend a breed club show, certainly never help out at one and never have a structured breeding programme.


Yes i can see what your saying there.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Spid, did you join the GCCF breeder scheme and what are your thoughts on it?


Yep - I have but only just - become 'active' on 1st Sept. My thoughts - I'm willing to give it a try. I'd like to know your misgivings if you would be willing to tell me (in a PM if you want). I think it is probably more buyer confidence giving than helping us as breeders.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> UP until I was recently corrected on this forum, I thought it was a rule, not just a recommendation that kittens had to have both vaccinations before leaving for their new homes when they were GCCF registered. *This was what I had been advised by both the stud owner I use and the breeder of my Devon Rex girl*


Sort of proves my point about many breeders not really being bothered about the organisation they claim to be a part of. As far as I'm aware a copy of rules and byelaws is still sent out to every new prefix holder so they do know the rules. In many cases it's obviously a complete waste of time, effort and money.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I think it is probably more buyer confidence giving that helping us as breeders.


Have you found a lack of buyer confidence without it?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> I can't feel that treating each kitten the best I can has anything to do with whether I register or not and whether the kitten goes to its new home with a piece of white card supplied by GCCF. The registration, for me, was always purely for the benefit of the new owner and (supposedly) gave them the confidence that the kitten was actually what I said it was.
> 
> I'd always believed that one of the reasons that the majority of people who approached me for a (pet) kitten was because I state, amonst other things, GCCF registered. But but actually turns out not to be the case.


Yep, I wrote that badly - I suppose I was just trying to say that that lovely piece of card is, for me, for all the kittens, irrespective of what kind of home they go to. Saying 'the best' wasn't the right phrase - oops. If I bought a pet kitten as a pedigree I would want it to be registered and so I treat all new owners as I would want to be treated. It is EXACTLY what you so, so the new owner has proof positive, and what I was trying to say (badly) was I want that for all my kittens and owners, not just show and bred kittens.

It is interesting seeing who hasn't changed the registration - but we haven't for our dog but we still wanted her registered, but couldn't be bothered to pay the £15 to put her in our name. And I think that is why a lot of people don't reregister them. It's not that they don't value the registration they just can't be bothered to pay another £12.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

havoc said:


> Have you found a lack of buyer confidence without it?


Not up and running yet for me yet Havoc, so couldn't tell you. But no not really, but then the early neutering thing weeds a lot out.

But I suppose you can't tell can you? If someone didn't contact me because I *WASN'T* part of the scheme I wouldn't know. If and when someone contacts me because I *AM* part of the scheme I will be able to quiz them on it. I always asks those kinds of questions. So should be able to tell you in a couple of litters time. Time will tell as they say. I'm happy to try it and see.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> And I think that is why a lot of people don't reregister them. It's not that they don't value the registration they just can't be bothered to pay another £12.


I have wondered how many buyers would register if we didn't at all. I mean we have to give them the paperwork to do so themselves so would they pay the extra? I really doubt it. Some day I am determined to just declare a litter and find out, if nothing else it would save adding to the hundreds of kittens I have registered and I still own according to the GCCF


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If and when someone contacts me because I AM part of the scheme I will be able to quiz them on it


That's fair. I think I probably sell about one kitten in thirty or so on direct contact, most are on recommendation so I guess I'll have to wait and see if people stop recommending me because I'm not a part of the scheme 

Have to say, either way it won't change the fellow breeders I would (or wouldn't) recommend. The good ones already go way over and above the scheme's requirements.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I may contact a few of mine and find out why. I have lots less than you so not a hard task.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I may contact a few of mine and find out why. I have lots less than you so not a hard task.


I suspect you also have lots less years behind you and lots less wrinkles than I


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

spid said:


> Yep - I have but only just - become 'active' on 1st Sept. My thoughts - I'm willing to give it a try. I'd like to know your misgivings if you would be willing to tell me (in a PM if you want). I think it is probably more buyer confidence giving than helping us as breeders.


My real gripe re the scheme is the lack of its promotion. The scheme, according to GCCF, was launched to make the whole pedigree kitten buying experience as good a one as possible for the prospective/new owners and to encourage the purchase of well bred, well raised, healthy, vaccinated, etc, etc, pedigree kittens.... which *might* have been a bit successful had GCCF ever bothered trying to reach the pet buying public.

The scheme's promotion has been VERY limited. Google 'pedigree kittens for sale' and there is no sign of the scheme web site however many pages of results you look through. The majority of people looking for a pedigree kitten will gravitate towards the few big on-line ad sites (we all know which they are). Advertising space could have been taken on those by GCCF promoting the scheme... but nothing. The so-called publicity programme has certainly gone over my head.. if it ever happened. Not that it bothers me in the least (I find my own web site and one of the kitten ad sites generate enough enquiries) but I (and two breeder friends) haven't had a single kitten enquiry via the scheme's kitten list - which further illustrates that no work has been done to get the web site further up the 'rankings'.

I know GCCF funds are still very tight but if the honest intention of the scheme is as mentioned above and not merely another exercise in trying to increase revenue, the next 12 months should tell us either way.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I (and two breeder friends) haven't had a single kitten enquiry via the scheme's kitten list


Is that the main reason people join - to be able to advertise their kittens on the scheme's web page? And there was me thinking it was meant to be all about welfare and standards


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> Is that the main reason people join - to be able to advertise their kittens on the scheme's web page? And there was me thinking it was meant to be all about welfare and standards




Friend and I had a laugh about the fact that she delayed her scheme application to coincide with when she would have kittens old enough to place on the scheme kitten list.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Much good that's done her it seems


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I seem to have a 38% take up rate on registrations.

Yes a lot less experience than you Havoc - but I came to it late and have grey hair and wrinkles. Though I feel I look relatively wrinkle free for my age compared to some of my friends. Had a friend to stay 6 years younger with me, and she had masses of wrinkles I was quite shocked. But then this is why I wear sunglasses all year round.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I think that in general the pet buying public don't have much of a clue about the GCCF or what it means to buy a registered kitten - little wonder that bybs do so well 
I haven't been breeding for as long as some of you lovely people but I am amazed at how many kittens are still in my name, even though I explained to buyers what they had to do 
I already do what the GCCF ask in the new scheme but haven't joined yet - I have to say I was put off by their opening comments about the scheme Quote 'This website will tell more about the exciting and brand new GCCF Breeder Scheme to promote responsible breeding. You will need to read the information carefully and decide whether the commitment the scheme demands is for you.'
I am offended by the implication that if I don't join I am not willing or able to make those commitments.
It would look very nice on my website, I'm sure, to say I am a member but I'm not sure how a member would benefit me or my kitten buyers.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Oh and the other things....

I have asked every person I have had a kitten enquiry from whether they had contacted me because I was a scheme member or if they were aware of the scheme. Answers were 'no' to both. I've asked did they notice the (prominently placed) scheme logo on my home page and did they click the link the read about the scheme? Again, no and no.

Admittedly, I have only had a handful of kittens go to new homes so far since being a scheme member. Despite me briefly explaining the scheme, providing a stamped, addressed envelope for the return of the feedback form and saying please make sure you fill in and return this, only two people have done so. I guess I should chase them up.

I know it's early days but to me there really does appear to be a distinct lack of interest unfortunately.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

That's why I thought I would try it out Lynn, I get most of my enquires through that pet site and my website. So I was willing to see. I like the logo on my front page and HOPE that it might give buyers confidence. I was doing all they wanted anyway, so it isn't onerous. It's an experiment. I don't expect to sell kittens through their site though.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Oh and the other things....
> 
> I have asked every person I have had a kitten enquiry from whether they had contacted me because I was a scheme member or if they were aware of the scheme. Answers were 'no' to both. I've asked did they notice the (prominently placed) scheme logo on my home page and did they click the link the read about the scheme? Again, no and no.
> 
> ...


There certainly need to be a big promotion all the time and it needs to gain 'worth' otherwise it is worthless and breeders will leave. There has to be a point to it, other than raising money for the GCCF.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> It would look very nice on my website, I'm sure, to say I am a member but I'm not sure how a member would benefit me or my kitten buyers.


Well that's the nub of it for me. It's interesting that gskinner has said only two people have returned their forms. More than anything that's a real worry for me because the initial discussions on it all implied that if forms were not being returned then it would be viewed as the fault of the breeder and could lead to them being thrown out of the scheme. I could end up on some equivalent of the suspension list for doing nothing wrong and for something completely outwith my control. Struck me I had everything to lose and nothing to gain.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> Well that's the nub of it for me. It's interesting that gskinner has said only two people have returned their forms. More than anything that's a real worry for me because the initial discussions on it all implied that if forms were not being returned then it would be viewed as the fault of the breeder and could lead to them being thrown out of the scheme. I could end up on some equivalent of the suspension list for doing nothing wrong and for something completely outwith my control. Struck me I had everything to lose and nothing to gain.


Yeah, quite. And the two that did go back probably said didn't serve wine and only paper cups provided.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Where is the gccf site that you check how many of your kittens have gone on to be registered in new owners name?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Well it would be ridiculous to be penalised for owners not returning their forms! But I wouldn't put it above them. I'll give it a year (should be two litters in that year - as this lot will go end of Sept so just in the beginning of my year) and then reassess.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Have you set yourself up to do online registrations? Once you have done you can do a check on all cats registered in your name.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

havoc said:


> Have you set yourself up to do online registrations? Once you have done you can do a check on all cats registered in your name.


Me?

Yes, that how I worked out the percentages.

3 out of 5 of my last litter reregistered in their names.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Well it would be ridiculous to be penalised for owners not returning their forms!


I can assure you in the initial stages the assumption was that not getting forms back would be viewed as an indication that they hadn't been given out. It is pretty difficult for the GCCF to know one way or the other unless they take it upon themselves to start chasing new owners - a possible inconvenience I'm not prepared to visit on my lovely kitten buyers.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Me?


No, somebody asked, we love bsh I think


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

AH, I can't keep up!


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> I have wondered how many buyers would register if we didn't at all. I mean we have to give them the paperwork to do so themselves so would they pay the extra? I really doubt it. Some day I am determined to just declare a litter and find out, if nothing else it would save adding to the hundreds of kittens I have registered and I still own according to the GCCF


Right shoot me if Im being stupid, but if you dont registered a kitten yourself but you are obliged to provide the paperwork for the new owner to do so should they ask for it, can the new owner then register the kitten on the active register is they so choose, or if they register the kitten themselves if there only the option for non active?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> Have you set yourself up to do online registrations? Once you have done you can do a check on all cats registered in your name.


Ah right cheers,iv not attempted tthe online regs yet,out of interest do you still have to write out all the details of grandsire/dam etc,could be good thing though as you only have to make one mistake and you have to redo all the form,infact iv just wrote out two litter of kittens to be registered i might scap it then try it online.

If i wanted to could i like go online and just get on with it now or is it not as simple as that? Can you pay as soon as you have filled in the info,then its all done?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If i wanted to could i like go online and just get on with it now or is it not as simple as that? Can you pay as soon as you have filled in the info,then its all done?


You can go online and do it but you may have to wait for them to send you a registration code by snail mail. Some do, some don't and I can't work out the criteria. Worth doing it now so you are ready when you need to use it. Payment is at last straightforward


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

my on line registration code came within a couple of days


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> but if you dont registered a kitten yourself but you are obliged to provide the paperwork for the new owner to do so should they ask for it, can the new owner then register the kitten on the active register is they so choose


They can register however they wish. Some time ago we were having the discussion about whether breeder registration would continue to be necessary as early neutering gained favour. No issue or worry at all about active/non-active registration if your kittens are already neutered.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> my on line registration code came within a couple of days


It's nice to know they come through quickly but I have no idea why some people need them and some don't. When I did it I just registered online.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> They can register however they wish. Some time ago we were having the discussion about whether breeder registration would continue to be necessary as early neutering gained favour. No issue or worry at all about active/non-active registration if your kittens are already neutered.


In which case if you dont early neuter it really isnt worth the risk of not registering as if you got a savvy person who knows what to do with the paperwork they could technically register one of a litter of non registered cats as active. I think those breeders who dont register but could rely on the fact the person buying is unaware they are entitled to the paperwork. Not a risk I would want to take if I didnt early neuter.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> You can go online and do it but you may have to wait for them to send you a registration code by snail mail. Some do, some don't and I can't work out the criteria. Worth doing it now so you are ready when you need to use it. Payment is at last straightforward


ok cheers.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> I can assure you in the initial stages the assumption was that not getting forms back would be viewed as an indication that they hadn't been given out. It is pretty difficult for the GCCF to know one way or the other unless they take it upon themselves to start chasing new owners - a possible inconvenience I'm not prepared to visit on my lovely kitten buyers.


Thing is, for GCCF to chase them up the owner must have transferred the kitten so that GCCF have their contact details. Given that we know a lot of owners don't bother....


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

wicket said:


> In which case if you dont early neuter it really isnt worth the risk of not registering as if you got a savvy person who knows what to do with the paperwork they could technically register one of a litter of non registered cats as active. I think those breeders who dont register but could rely on the fact the person buying is unaware they are entitled to the paperwork. Not a risk I would want to take if I didnt early neuter.


The thing is, that savvy person would apparently be seeing an opportunity to breed from a cat (that they could place) on the active register and, presumably, because they were apparently bothered about the active register in the first place, go on to register the kittens with GCCF. How do you compare that against deciding to breed from a a cat already registered by the breeder as non-active. I can't get away from thinking that the truly dodgy person who sets out to deceive when buying a kitten doesn't give a rat's behind whether that kitten is active, non-active or not registered at all.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Thing is, for GCCF to chase them up the owner must have transferred the kitten so that GCCF have their contact details. Given that we know a lot of owners don't bother....


Ah but you have to 'encourage them to do so if you've signed up. I think we can safely assume that the GCCF were hoping for a flood of transfer fees through the new scheme  Considering the General Code of Ethics states quite clearly that *Registered owners of all GCCF registered cats/kittens accept the jurisdiction of The Governing Council of the Cat Fancy and undertake to abide by this general code of ethics. * I can quite see why your average pet owners aren't flocking to subject themselves to the ever increasing bureaucracy that is the GCCF


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> The thing is, that savvy person would apparently be seeing an opportunity to breed from a cat (that they could place) on the active register and, presumably, because they were apparently bothered about the active register in the first place, go on to register the kittens with GCCF. How do you compare that against deciding to breed from a a cat already registered by the breeder as non-active. I can't get away from thinking that the truly dodgy person who sets out to deceive when buying a kitten doesn't give a rat's behind whether that kitten is active, non-active or not registered at all.


Agree with that to a certain extent, but the savvy person also knows that registered kittens command higher prices - I had a couple viewing today who had been quoted £650 for a BSH male blue kitten, justified on the basis that they came from champion lines - the irony was the breeder has used the same stud as me and his girl was no better bred than mine either - £650 !!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> but the savvy person also knows that registered kittens command higher prices


Er no. The highest prices by a lot I've known for my breed were asked (and got) by a BYB selling unregistered, and more to the point unregisterable, kittens. It's a thing called perceived value. There will always be a type of person who thinks they are getting more because they're paying more.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It suddenly came to me last night why the GCCF can't push this more with the public. What's to push? A breeder in the scheme does nothing extra for the buyer over and above what's been normal practice for many years. The only thing a breeder guarantees to do which is just a recommendation for a non scheme member is vaccinate kittens. The vast majority of us do that anyway. If they don't comply all that happens is they can't stay in the scheme but they won't have done anything 'wrong' under GCCF rules. They'll still be able to carry on within the GCCF. There are no extra disciplinary measures for the breeder or protection for the buyer.


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