# Not sure if I can do this...



## spacekadet (Jan 2, 2011)

Hi everyone. I've posted here a few times about my Jay, a border collie I adopted last September.

Where do I begin? Maybe with myself. 

I'm new to dog ownership. Had dogs when I was a kid but this is my first time having my own dog as an adult.

I took Jay in from a family in Cardiff who could no longer care for him. They said he needed "a bit of training".

But as I've since discovered, Jay has some serious personality issues. He's frightfully insecure and goes ballistic whenever he sees another dog or animal. I've seen him bite other dogs, and last week, in a fit of panic when a dog approached him, he even bit me (not hard, but enough to break the skin and draw blood). He's impossible to take for a walk because every new sound / smell / sight makes him extremely hyper. 

I have tears in my eyes as I write this because he's such a sweet boy. He's lying right here nuzzled up next to me fast asleep. I love him to bits.

But I simply don't feel like I have the knowledge or experience to deal with his problems.

I've been to obedience classes, hired trainers, even went to York to speak to Barbara Sykes (a border collie "expert") about what to do. All I've learned is that this poor boy's been over-stimulated his whole life and he needs someone confident and consistent to guide him.

The trouble is, I'm new to dogs. I have so much to learn about how they think. And I feel terrible that I'm not giving this boy the life he needs. I am NOT confident in my abilities, and I know the dog can read this. And so, we struggle. 

He's just under two years old, plenty of time for him to come around, but I don't want him to waste the prime of his learning years on a foolishly naive owner (me). 

I have highs and lows with him, and maybe today is just a low, and maybe tomorrow I'll wake up with new-found determination to understand him. But what if I don't, well, then what are my options? How does one go about finding a better home for their dog? I don't want to take him to a rescue shelter. I want him with someone who understands border collies. Sigh, I wish that were me!

What frustrates me is, well, ME more than the dog. The more I learn, the more I realize how many ways I've gone wrong since the get-go. For example, his past owners often had him off lead. So I let him go off lead, which seems to have taught him that the world is his to do as he pleases (that includes chasing other animals). It's like I'm in a constant uphill battle to break the habits that I allowed him to develop in the first place.

I want to be a responsible pet owner. I guess I'm just wondering lately if I've hit a wall where the responsible thing is to give him up to someone who knows better. =(

I've also heard of people sending their dog away for weeks / months to doggie camps - anyone have experience with this, or know where I would begin to search for such a thing? Or how might I find a dog trainer/behaviourist to work with on a regular basis? 

I'm in Wiltshire, but willing to travel. 

All advice, commentary, criticism, doses of reality are welcome.

Thanks for listening
Monica


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Sounds like you have tried your hardest hun , BC's arent the easiest of dogs , those with issues can be a real trial 
I dont feel qualified enough to give you any advice , but should it all prove too much you mentioned Barbara Sykes , were you aware she runs a BC rescue , we got our Teddy from there , its 'The Freedom of Spirit Trust for Border Collies'
Theres also Wiccaweys , from all reports they are excellent with BC's

I hope this is just an off day for you and you do get some help for Jay ... but dont feel bad if you feel you cant help him and decide to hand him over to a rescue hun


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## PembrokeMadhouse (May 18, 2009)

Of course you can do it .... you've hit the bottom of the hole and the only way is up ... Border Collie Trust do help with training and behaviour problems, give them a call. When I first got Nell (long story) I was on the phone with them for hours talking about how best to handle her ... Sounds like he's never been socialised or anything ... but that will take time and I am sure the rescues previously mentioned will help, not with taking him off your hands but helping you manage him better so he doesn't end up in rescue.

Give BCT, or Wiccaweys a call ... I am sure they will advise you. But keep going ... you are probably the first person who's "bothered" with him, so persevere, and you can always come on here for moral support, or PM me ... not an expert with collie training as my collie Meg came fairly well trained although it had been beaten into her, so once she realised I wasn't going to beat her all the time she has become a fantastic dog ... But I can still provide a listening ear or a bit of basic advice.

Clare x


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I know how you feel, I am having a bit of a downer with Roxy at the moment but I do know that this will pass. 

I don't believe Roxy was correctly assessed at the shelter & her being a bit OTT with other dogs was an understatement, she has many issues including anxiety attacks, compulsive behaviours, pulls like a tream train on a lead, mad whining/barking when she wants to chase animals or other dogs, hates cyclists & recently she has started guarding me & snapping at people. Walks some days can be more of a trial than an enjoyment, our lives constantly revolve around her & I read about dog behaviour all the time to try & understand how we can help her.

I do not belive that Roxy should have been re-homed with us as we are not experienced dog owners but .... she is with us now & despite all the frustration, tears (at times from me  ) I am determined that things will get better.

It may feel like a long time to you but really you haven't had him that long if his behaviours have been ongoing for such ong periods. With Roxy I believe that her problems stem from a lack of socialisation which I realise will take us a long time to truly have an impact on her behaviour.

I do have really good days, unfortunately the last one when we had a fantastic walk then ended with her snapping at someone :cryin: - so we went one step forward & two back again!!!

I do not attend obedience classes with Roxy at present, there would be no point as she would be too disruptive & not actually learn anything. Instead we attend 'special needs' classes with a behaviourist which the dogs are treated more individfually. I think we will be attending for a while before things get better though. Have you had any regualr sessions with a behaviourist rather than just one off sessions? believe me you are not alone, I envy some people I see out with their two dogs happily running along side them rather than being pulled round a field as I was the other day


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## spacekadet (Jan 2, 2011)

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies. It's a world of help and encouragement. I think one of my mistakes was taking him to obedience lessons early on. I now see that it was just one more stress in his life, winding him up into this current ball of nervous energy. 

I've also radically changed his lifestyle in recent weeks (since meeting Ms. Sykes and following her suggestions). He's essentially having to learn a whole new way of life and I was not prepared for how difficult it would be. Or how much it would take over my life.

I know I CAN do it. But do I want to? I feel horrible asking that question but that's what it's about right? A willingness to accept the process?

Then I think of something a dog trainer once told me (she may have been quoting a Cesar Milan type animal celebrity): "We don't always get the dog we want, but we always get the dog we need."

Not sure if that's true but I'm trying to embrace it. 

And in the meantime, wearing earplugs at night as dog has taken to midnight howling/barking sessions. 

Thanks, also, for not making me feel bad about the possibly giving him up. You guys are ace.

Monica


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## TheFredChallenge (Feb 17, 2011)

Wow Monica - you are a star and like me are going through - oh god what have I done/why did I get the dog that's hard work and (for slightly different reasons). I too have been in tears many times when my Lab was only weeks old wondering if I can manage him. That is soooo not how I wanted/expected it to be as I was soooooo looking forward to enjoying puppyhood as I have a lot of time to give a dog and had waited a long time. I wanted a small Lab - what did I get????? A massive one that everybody has to say oh god he's going to be massive, wow look at the size of his paws,ooh you've got your hands full etc etc and that just reminds and upsets me of what I seem to get over temporarily.....but on a regular basis I get v. upset and teary about. People just remind me of the fact that I do indeed have a massive test on my hands when they see him bounding towards them and their children and I'm trying to control him on the lead. By the way he's only 16 weeks!!!!! 
My old dog died 2yrs ago and I was so spoilt with his behaviour - he was an angel....so I know it can be very hard faced with something new and challenging. 

So I just wanted to say I too know how it feels when you've got an element of doubt, it's horrible and worse when it's something you've never dealt with before but you love them and wouldn't want to give them up. I think I'm going to need some help before long - as I'm reading all the books, have gone to puppy classes and it worries me I'm going to have a crazed overexuberant dog...which I so don't want/need.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

spacekadet said:


> But as I've since discovered, Jay has some serious personality issues. He's frightfully insecure and goes ballistic whenever he sees another dog or animal. I've seen him bite other dogs, and last week, in a fit of panic when a dog approached him, he even bit me (not hard, but enough to break the skin and draw blood). He's impossible to take for a walk because every new sound / smell / sight makes him extremely hyper
> ...
> I've been to obedience classes, hired trainers, even went to York to speak to Barbara Sykes (a border collie "expert") about what to do. All I've learned is that this poor boy's been over-stimulated his whole life and he needs someone confident and consistent to guide him.
> ...
> ...


On bright side, at 2 years on a male BC will gradually naturally calm as they become more mature and less hyper, whilst remaining fit dogs for a long time.

Most of the Collies I meet are also rescues and tend to be under-socialised, they're prone to be nervous of other dogs and then out & out fear-aggressive if they don't keep meeting strangers. With time they do settle down and slowly become more confident, but never out & out sociable dogs seeking new company.

The area is on edge of a city, not out in the "quiet" country as demanded by Border Collie Rescue - UK of Richmond; we have ones over from Ireland & Wales, often brought up on farms. They tend to have a flinch reaction to hand movements, so I presume most have been hit at some point. They do seem to settle and improve with time, and not be chronically stressed & over-stimulated, if your BC grew up with a typical family, who then found he was too active for them to handle, he ought to be better habituated to domestic life than some of the dogs I come across regularly.

Have you asked yourself what the dog needs? Really it's fairly simple, and a calm predictable owner, providing mental & physical activities is part of it, as well as food, water and shelter.

I really don't understand how he could both be over-stimulated his whole life, have been off lead to run about, yet on walks have every new sound / smell / sight makes him extremely hyper. Either he was kept indoors and hasn't experienced things, or he has seen and experience the outdoors; both cannot be true.

SO he does need to learn calmer behaviours and certainly solid recall. But I doubt if a young dog that's enjoying chasing, is going to be easy to reform from that particular habit, until he slows up in a few years; because it's so self rewarding.

Most of the owners handle this, by having a ball around to play fetch; some of the dogs carry balls on rope around the whole time, which stops them barking & nipping.



spacekadet said:


> I think one of my mistakes was taking him to obedience lessons early on. I now see that it was just one more stress in his life, winding him up into this current ball of nervous energy.
> 
> I've also radically changed his lifestyle in recent weeks (since meeting Ms. Sykes and following her suggestions). He's essentially having to learn a whole new way of life and I was not prepared for how difficult it would be. Or how much it would take over my life


As for going to Obedience lessons, that is a natural thing to do, and perhaps you did not really make a mistake going, you just really needed to borrow someone else's dog to go, which was sociable, as they are really about teaching you, not the dog in class.

As a matter of interest, what life style have you been advised to follow with him?


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## hairydog (Feb 15, 2009)

Think we all go through the unsurities in puppyhood, wondering oh my god, have we done the right thing, i know i did with my young dog who is nearly 9mnths, i also have a Beardie who is 9 and calm, mallow, well behaved and a super dog, but when he was 2ish,he was a little toe rag too, like most young dogs, my pup Rolo, a Beardie/Border is a good, well behaved and fairly adjusted dog, well socialised, so every 1 keeps telling me, and when we go out up the woods, i play with my dogs, so they are focused on me, not anything else, and they go home tired and content, but i questioned my own ability with rolo, would i be able to cope with him, being so active, but then every 1 told me, he's made for you, you walk for hours, play non-stop, and now he is starting to settle down, light at the end of the tunnel, and yes, i rose to the challenge, but i think, having the bit of Beardie in him, he is not quite so manic as some Borders and it takes the edges of him, if you know what i mean, but he's still got to master lead walking, he's like a devil in disguise, so good luck with your border, but they are not for every 1, and there are lots of people on here with loads of good advice, and remember, your dog does not speak English, and you do not speak dog, so somehow you have to learn to talk to him in another way.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

As many have said, it's not always an easy ride with our dogs and sometimes it feels like you're fighting a losing battle. Flynn has had me in tears many a time but now at nearly three the tears have stopped, even though I get quite down hearted at times still. I used to say - can't wait til this boy turns one, then two now three, lol. All in all he has improved tremendously and I try to look at the things we have achieved and not what we haven't.

Can't offer any advice as i'm still having some probs myself, so def no expert here but it has helped to look at the things we're achieving and not what we haven't. Hang in there, he's bound to settle down with age, just like Flynn appears to be doing.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

A difficult collie can rule your life. they really do need the right home. You sound like you are doing your best but honestly a dog is there to enhance your life and if you are miserable then the dog is miserable. I see no point in keeping a dog that really is too difficult for you so if you do decide to rehome him then dont feel you are in the wrong or giving up on him.


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## gizzmo341 (Mar 23, 2011)

i know this my sound stupid or idotic to you but have you thought of Canine Massage Therapy? it could carm him dog temparly so you could start working on training him abit easyer, with a good behaivorlist guildance.

to carm my terrior i had to do: 
- walk 1-1.5 hours a day, 
- training (sit, down, watch me(watch me is still a problem lol))
- 1 hour of play ie monday=freesbie, tuseday=aglity, wenesdays=ball
- i have had to change her diet to low energy food
while carming my dog down i went to regular dog training classes with a traininer, she went to agilty classes, she wore a carming t-shirt (thundershirt i think)


now she is nice and carm we still do the exercise, some days a little less but she is a 1000 times better

dose any of this help?


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Reading your post is heartbreaking.

I really feel that you love your dog and only want the best for him, even if that isn't you. 

*There is light at the end of the tunnel - but are you willing to make the difficult journey?*
I don't think anyone should judge you for asking yourself whether it'd be more responsible to give up your dog. 
One day with the new routine and lots of training it will get better and you'll be able to enjoy your dog, but getting there isn't going to be easy as you've acknowledged.

I think you need to make a decision sooner rather than later as to whether you're going to persevere (which is going to mean a lot of training, possibly the help of a behaviourist, and this dog taking over your life totally until he learns what you're trying to teach him) or whether you're going to give him up (which is a difficult job of finding someone capable and willing).


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## DaisytheTT (Jan 20, 2011)

I don't have any advice but just wanted to give you a virtual hug.

Having previously had dogs I thought having another puppy would be a breeze but Daisy is unlike any dog I have had before. I've always done everything the 'experts' say - socialise when young, proper training, boundaries etc etc but still I have been through the mill with her and many a time I have thought I can't do this anymore. She has good days and bad still (me too) but we are slowly getting there. My best friend has a BC and Gypsy pushed my friend to the limit on many occasions and she very nearly (on more than one occasion) took her back to her breeder, but with help she got Gypsy's issues under control and now things, albeit not perfect (Gypsy is still not quite 1) are alot better.

I just want to say, whatever you decide to do it will be the best choice for both of you in the long run. Please don't feel that you have 'failed' if you need to re-home, dogs can test you to the absolute limits and at the same time remember if you are having a bad day and need to vent, we are all here to listen.

Take care


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

gizzmo341 said:


> to carm my terrior i had to do:
> - walk 1-1.5 hours a day,
> - training (sit, down, watch me(watch me is still a problem lol))
> - 1 hour of play ie monday=freesbie, tuseday=aglity, wenesdays=ball
> ...


It is great that you have the commitment to give your dog the time she needs!

That is going to be rather daunting list for many pet owners, who hope for a nice comfy sleep at your feet fireside dog; but really shows the importance of *not choosing a breed on looks but doing your homework and finding the right dawg to fit your lifestyle*.

I do hope the OP, tells us more about what she's been advised to do, so we can share experiences and ideas.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Rereading your post today - just wanted to send you a (((( BIG HUG! ))))


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## gizzmo341 (Mar 23, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> It is great that you have the commitment to give your dog the time she needs!
> 
> That is going to be rather daunting list for many pet owners, who hope for a nice comfy sleep at your feet fireside dog; but really shows the importance of *not choosing a breed on looks but doing your homework and finding the right dawg to fit your lifestyle*.
> 
> I do hope the OP, tells us more about what she's been advised to do, so we can share experiences and ideas.


thanks for the post and she dose take alot on commitment to handle her but i have had ALOT of help with it, she is worth it, and without her i would be alot ill'er(if thats a word, lol) without her and she has help me as much as i have helped her


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

spacekadet - any updates? How are things going?


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## spacekadet (Jan 2, 2011)

Hey guys, just coming back to this thread - I had no idea how many updates there were. Thanks SO much for the kind words and support.

Helbo, your comment made me really teary-eyed: "I think you need to make a decision sooner rather than later as to whether you're going to persevere...or whether you're going to give him up."

It struck a cord for some reason - thank you for your honesty and being so blunt. Struck a cord I guess because... sigh... I don't think I want to persevere, and I feel terrible about it.

I talked to Wiccaways today - thanks so much for recommending them. What a lovely, passioned couple. I love that they call their dogs "monkeys". Just super down to earth people who I wish I'd met at the beginning of all this. We talked a long time about their approach and I can email them if I want to come up for a session.

But after I got off the phone, I just... I felt so exhausted by it all.

Things are extra complicated at the moment as just a couple months ago I parted with my partner of 10 years, and I'm now living on my own, in the country, with really no daily support network. I'm kind of starting life over in a lot of ways, and yet I feel like I haven't had any time to process all the changes while dealing with this dog (nevermind working enough hours to pay the now doubled bills).

Okay, I'm totally sounding like a woe-is-me sad sack. It's so anti- what I'm about and I'm sorry for it. But it sounds like a lot of you know what it's like to feel overwhelmed so thanks for being so patient.

Having said all that, I did order a crate over the weekend to see if that can help establish some boundaries (yet another area for advice, but I'll write a separate post for that!).

So anyway, say you were a single woman, living on her own, who had a dog she absolutely adored but wasn't able to give it the time, patience, energy, STRENGTH OF CHARACTER, that the dog really needs? What would you do? How do you rehome a dog?

Talked briefly to Wiccaways about this but they already have a huge long waiting list.

It's all just heartbreaking because at the moment, I could really use the company of a canine companion. But as it stands, we're not enjoying each other's company very much, and that isn't very good for either of us.

*What I've been advised...*

Oh right, someone asked me what I've been advised to do... ugh, herein is probably part of my problem as I've talked to soooo many trainers, behaviourists, read books, etc...

This is following my meeting w/ Barbara Sykes, who has a completely different approach to the Wiccaways folks... she's quite traditional with all that pack leader nonsense, but some of it makes sense to me, and I like her methods because they are VERY gentle and involve building the dog's respect for you, rather than winning it through treats - which my dog doesn't care much about anyway.


Put him on a lower energy food (this has definitely helped)
Get rid of all his toys (which were making him hyper / toy-obsessed)
Reclaim ownership of the house by giving the dog a "chill mat", something he "owns" so he doesn't have to be on guard all the time (this is going okay... but I don't think he really gets it)
Train the dog to walk behind (wherein basically I use "body-blocking" to walk in front of the dog... sounded weird at first but it actually does calm the dog down)
Use a long line when out on "free walks" (a revelation, until he's solid on recall)

One of the things I struggle with here is that it doesn't really leave much fun for the dog. With no toys, treats, whatever, I feel like the dog has nothing to "work" for. The idea is to calm the dog down, while establishing myself as its "protector", but I can't say he's shown much progress... if anything he seems more stressed, but I suppose that's because I've really had to reign in the discipline (going from a dog who was let off-lead to play catch every day until he felt like running away and had the run of the house, to a dog that's alway kept under my control) and he's getting used to this new way of life. From his point of view, he's like "WTF, MOM???" and we basically spend our afternoons with him in my face (or in the bedroom) whining, barking, panting. Until he finally calms down, at which point - if it's time - I take him for a walk or give him some praise.

There's probably more I'm leaving out but that's the gist of it.

Thanks again...

Monica

P.S. Putting a lot more thoughts into this blog I started... Everyday Dog Training


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

spacekadet said:


> Okay, I'm totally sounding like a woe-is-me sad sack. It's so anti- what I'm about and I'm sorry for it.


No your not - you need a support network and this forum is a start



spacekadet said:


> Having said all that, I did order a crate over the weekend to see if that can help establish some boundaries.


This is the best thing you could do - he will now have to work for the privilege of time with you, food, exercise and freedom.



spacekadet said:


> One of the things I struggle with here is that it doesn't really leave much fun for the dog. With no toys, treats, whatever, I feel like the dog has nothing to "work" for.


Fun - is your take on what his needs are - he needs some boundaries in order to have fun/work. Going for a walk is 'fun' for a dog, they play and frollick for self entertainment and he appears to have had *you* well trained in this aspect.



spacekadet said:


> The idea is to calm the dog down, while establishing myself as its "protector", but I can't say he's shown much progress... if anything he seems more stressed, but I suppose that's because I've really had to reign in the discipline (going from a dog who was let off-lead to play catch every day until he felt like running away and had the run of the house, to a dog that's alway kept under my control) and he's getting used to this new way of life. From his point of view, he's like "WTF, MOM???"


And this is the start of a new regime for him - he is and will try every trick in his repertoire to get you trained his way, to respond to him his way - it's a slow up hill battle that giving a human take of 'sympathy' will only feed his 'status' and serve to keep you feeling guilty. Don't feel guilty about laying the law down with the revised boundaries, it is the means to an end where all other techniques you've tried before haven't worked.



spacekadet said:


> and we basically spend our afternoons with him in my face (or in the bedroom) whining, barking, panting. Until he finally calms down, at which point - if it's time - I take him for a walk or give him some praise.


Perfect result - when he's calm he has earned the reward of 'your time' - the time to reach calm will shorten in time provided you remain consistent with what you are asking. I would however remove him from your face and put him in the crate.

Sounds to me like you need this to work and by God you're giving it all it takes, I really wish you well and I'm sure it will pay off in the long run.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

spacekadet said:


> I talked to Wiccaways today - thanks so much for recommending them. What a lovely, passioned couple. I love that they call their dogs "monkeys". Just super down to earth people who I wish I'd met at the beginning of all this. We talked a long time about their approach and I can email them if I want to come up for a session
> ...
> Talked briefly to Wiccaways about this but they already have a huge long waiting list.


If you're near Marlborough, Witshire Lez Graham would be worth considering, Lez holds a certificate in canine psychology, is a full member of the Canine and Feline Behaviour Association (CFBA), a master trainer with the Guild of Dog Trainers (GoDT) and is currently studying for her Masters Degree in Dog Behaviour & Psychology at Middlesex University, recently she's been spoken highly of in this thread as well as by my Sister Positive Gun Dog Training.


spacekadet said:


> It's all just heartbreaking because at the moment, I could really use the company of a canine companion. But as it stands, we're not enjoying each other's company very much, and that isn't very good for either of us


This doesn't sound like the Pack Leader approach is really working for you, you tone is troubled as if something feels not right.



spacekadet said:


> we basically spend our afternoons with him in my face (or in the bedroom) whining, barking, panting. Until he finally calms down, at which point - if it's time - I take him for a walk or give him some praise


To be fair, when an undesirable behaviour, which was previously rewarded is about to be extinguished, the experts talk of "extinction burst" where the dog tries harder to get the expected reaction, so behaviour appears worse just before it suddenly improves and the dog gives up the old behaviour.

It would seem simpler to me to teach, by reward based methods calm behavior you want, like for example settling by your feet. Lying down and sitting. Collies love being trained, for an example in another thread of a "Rescue" see Oh dear...I have a newly aquired 10 yr old collie cross The strategy to positively teach a different behaviour incompatible with the undesirable ones, using earnt rewards based training helped quickly.

If you actively and positively reward, behaviour you want and ignore the whining & barking, and attention seeking, you can turn that round quite quickly. With a non-puppy Collie calm play acts as a bigger reward than food training treats in many situations, though food works well in familiar places with low distractions like inside the home & garden.

My concern in your situation would be the potential destructive behaviour and hyper-behaviours, caused by boredom and lack of activity and mental stimulation. This is what most domestic BC owners have problems with, if the dogs aren't sufficicently active and a common reason for the dog to be given up to rescue.



spacekadet said:


> she's quite traditional with all that pack leader nonsense, but some of it makes sense to me, and I like her methods because they are VERY gentle and involve building the dog's respect for you, rather than winning it through treats - which my dog doesn't care much about anyway.
> 
> 
> Put him on a lower energy food (this has definitely helped)
> ...


Border Collies are bred to work in cooperation with their Handler! If he feels unemployed and useless, left to idle, it's not building the relationship, that positive training would do. Training treats don't buy the dog's love, they reinforce behaviours or help build positive associations.

I like part of the list if it's modified to :

Avoid very high protein working dog food
Giving the dog a bed in a quiet spot, where he can relax in (crate fine)
Train the dog
Use a long line when out on "free walks" (a revelation, until he's solid on recall)
I would teach calm games, as part of training and as rewards, which feature pauses and avoid over-excitement, whilst developing impulse control, and having fun with the dog! Encourage sniffing about whilst out, as it calms and is tiring as it scent uses the dog's brain.

My Suburban BC, has the toys, twice daily exercise; but will sleep behind me here, or out in a bed; when nothing is going on, or if he is left alone. It's the dogs raised in quiet barns out of domestic settings, not those habituated to household noises who have trouble coping with the bustle surrounding our lives, TV etc


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

There is one more thing.
To help calm your dog you can use aromatherapy and canine massage.

Aromatherapy:
In Boots you can buy aromatherapy oils - read description I like geranium oil, it works brilliant. 
You need to as well:



All what you do is put few drops of oil on top of it - you can mix it with water but don't put it to much, light the tea candle and relax.

It will help both of you.


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## Pawsitive (Mar 24, 2011)

Agree totally with Rob who has given some great advice.

Have you done any obedience at home? Or taken him to agility?

I find when I mentally stimulate my Collies they are far more tired than when they have just gone on a long walk, as much as they love their walks!

There's a great new doggy sport called Treibball which started in Germany and has exploded in the states but has only just started over here.

It involves getting your dog to herd balls into a goal - and actually is something you can work on at home with just a clicker, treats and a normal exercise ball - I got mine from Tescos and the dogs love it. Might be great for you and Jay. If you want any more info let me know


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## spacekadet (Jan 2, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> I would teach calm games, as part of training and as rewards, which feature pauses and avoid over-excitement, whilst developing impulse control, and having fun with the dog! Encourage sniffing about whilst out, as it calms and is tiring as it scent uses the dog's brain.


I've read about "rewarding" calming behaviour and try to do this... though sometimes my reward seems to get him all excited! (Particularly if the reward is me on the ground petting him... and first he's happy, then he starts getting really excited again, and play-biting).

Do you have any suggestions for "calm games"?

I do some obedience training with him... right before dinner time usually (for some reason he doesn't seem interested in dinner unless he's done a little "work" first). Sit / stay, sit / wait, "sit pretty" (Jean Donaldson's "beg")... tried roll over but that gets him SOOOoooo excited for some reason!

Tried taking Jay to agility but he can't handle being around other dogs. He was just too stressed to enjoy it. We used to do some "jumps" over tree branches and stuff while he was still allowed off lead. But not anymore. As for clickers, they scare him!

I've heard lavender oil is good... keep meaning to find some but I think this thread has given me the impetus. Will try geranium too.

Also, today Jay was being reeeally antsy about some people outside having a bonfire (guess I can't blame him) and I found this "Through a Dog's Ear: Calm Your Canine" music... basically it's just a bunch of classical tracks but I put it on (with Spotify - love it) and it actually seemed to help (calmed me down too  )
"Through a Dog's Ear" - Music for dogs and everyone who loves 'em!

I'm totally getting one of those groovy tea light aromatherapy candles. I'm going to turn this house into the den of zen!

Monica


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

spacekadet said:


> I'm totally getting one of those groovy tea light aromatherapy candles. I'm going to turn this house into the den of zen!


So maybe next step: dog- joga? 
You don't have to use it all the time. Good news is that after one use smell will survive to next day 

Did you consider to use some calming pills (herbal one: Scullcap & Valerian tablets - Dorwest ) or DAP collar?
Zylkene also is good but expensive ZYLKENE - Stress in Dogs and Cats - A Safe, Natural, New Treatment


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

spacekadet said:


> Helbo, your comment made me really teary-eyed: "I think you need to make a decision sooner rather than later as to whether you're going to persevere...or whether you're going to give him up."
> 
> It struck a cord for some reason - thank you for your honesty and being so blunt. Struck a cord I guess because... sigh... I don't think I want to persevere, and I feel terrible about it.


Hi spacekadet - it's good to see your updates. It's clear to us all that you love your dog and are trying really hard to find some common ground.

I hope I didn't upset you too much with my bluntness. But I do think in these tough situations you have to be extra tough on yourself and work out what you really want to do.

If you don't think you can give that dog the life it deserves then the best thing to do is rehome to someone who can. It must be one of the most difficult decisions to make, but don't be too hard on yourself. If you really don't think you've got the time and energy to persevere then don't feel terrible about it, that's just being honest with yourself.

No dog can be 'replaced' but perhaps you've just got the wrong breed. Giving up this dog (if that's what you decide to do) doesn't mean you wouldn't be a good owner to a different breed in the future.

Just something to think about.

Your last post seemed a lot more positive, even though it still shows you have some doubts about what to do. I hope you can see we're here for you whatever happens 

Keep us updated


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## spacekadet (Jan 2, 2011)

Thanks, Helbo. Yes, feeling a bit more positive today... I think all of my venting on these forums has helped me let off some steam. 

Despite all my doubts, you're right - I do care about this dog. And I know that whether I rehome him or not, he's with me now, and will be with me for some amount of time, and I want to use that time as best I can. So, I'm trying not to have a "what's the point in trying?" attitude. I need to spiral up, not down.

After all of my venting, I took Jay on a long walk with the long line. I think I sometimes go a little too hard on the lead training (we're so impatient we humans) which just leaves me frustrated. So tonight I just spent a few minutes with it, then just walked, with a little recall practised ONLY when I was 99% SURE he would come. I've gotta remember to set the dog up for success... cuz it'll encourage us both... rather than pushing us too far and leaving me frustrated and him (the poor thing) totally confused.

Thanks also for your support on the rehoming matter. Good to know I'll be welcome back on the forums if I do end up with a different dog. Hopefully Jay and I will come to grips with eachother. I'm really looking forward to the crate and some yummy smells from the essential oils. Going into Bath tomorrow and will pick up some expensive hippy oils at Neal's Yard Remedies. :tongue_smilie:

BTW, people out there who have kids, I salute you. And for those who have kids AND pets, you are modern day superheros. 

Monica


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

spacekadet said:


> After all of my venting, I took Jay on a long walk with the long line. I think I sometimes go a little too hard on the lead training (we're so impatient we humans) which just leaves me frustrated. So tonight I just spent a few minutes with it, then just walked, with a little recall practised ONLY when I was 99% SURE he would come. I've gotta remember to set the dog up for success... cuz it'll encourage us both... rather than pushing us too far and leaving me frustrated and him (the poor thing) totally confused


Now that shows insight! Training is frustrating, it just takes the dog a while to really have things sink in and then you keep working on it in other places and situations to "proof" the command in more places and with gradually greater distractions.

Victoria Stillwell in US show "Hollywood Hounds" featured a fun way to teach recall to whistle, and BC's are great at responding to whistle; so it made me think of you and your dog 

May be you can catch the show still it was on Pick TV. It was as simple, as having a palatable training treat reward (it's the smell & taste rather than quantity that acts as reward). Blowing the whistle gently, stepping back and offering the dog the reward to "charge up" the whistle.

Then the owner, also with treats blew her whistle, and offered the treat, then Victoria and so on, gradually increasing the distance in the garden. Every dog (they had 4 they worked with in turn) was soon going back and forth and enjoying themselves, as did they. It might be a fun option for you, if you can get a friend over who'll help a bit.

Where they had a problem, was withdrawing the food reward too soon, which meant starting over again, with warmed slices of hot dog. A solid 90% success rate before mixing in praise was advised in this case, the aim is eventually to praise 4/5 times success, about 1/5 times food or play.

I'll try and put together a post on calm games later... for now you can watch my dog & a girlfriend of his (at 11 months old) calmly playing, they avoid over-excitement by frequent short pauses and taking turns, they're almost in slow motion and silent Two 11 Month Old's Playing so they we didn't need to make any interventions, that observation tells us how to keep our games with our dogs calm!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

spacekadet said:


> I've read about "rewarding" calming behaviour and try to do this... though sometimes my reward seems to get him all excited! (Particularly if the reward is me on the ground petting him... and first he's happy, then he starts getting really excited again, and play-biting


So notice how much petting is happy without over excitement, and simply reward in small doses!

You may find, very slow, more massaging, pressing, long strokes, are calmer, than the patting and rapid strokes, which are more common.

Generally using low pitch, quiet and soothing, with few words (like people talk to nervous horses) is calming.

High pitch, loud, up beat and frantic, is exciting! Real rocket science isn't it?


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## 912142 (Mar 28, 2011)

Morning

First of all let me say I have absolutely no experience of border collies other than the collies on my family's croft. I have recognised though that they are dog shy and at times human shy - they are working dogs and appear to need plenty exercise and mental stimulation. They are extremely good at what they do. I have seen border collies out walking and they will give a very wide berth to oncoming dogs - that seems to be their way.

Just a thought - what about agility - you might find that this stimulates him mentally and would be a great bonding experience for both of you?

I feel it would be a shame for both you and your pet to give up now and it would be worth just giving that extra push to make it work, however, at the end of the day you are the best judge of that.

I wish you all the best in your efforts. :001_smile:


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## spacekadet (Jan 2, 2011)

Hey guys. Kind of a weird day. Well, not that weird. I was out of the house a bit and had a chance to think about things, without Jay around, pulling on my heart strings. Thought a lot about what Helbo said and thought "right, I'm going to make a decision by the end of the week."

And then I got home and I realized that my "end of the week" idea is only prolonging a decision I think I've already made: I need to find Jay a new home. I'm just not ready for this. My temper alone... ugh, I feel terrible. I know I'm not a bad person but making this decision makes me feel that way. 

Anyway, what is the most responsible thing to do in my situation? I have emailed Wiccaways for their advice, too.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news... this poor dog... he really deserves to be WANTED. 

Heartbroken..
Monica


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

spacekadet said:


> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news...


No, news isn't bad. You made decision and this is a great news! Better is to give the dog a chance than for you both to suffer. 
I have hope that you will find good home for him. Fingers crossed


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## spacekadet (Jan 2, 2011)

Andromeda said:


> No, news isn't bad. You made decision and this is a great news! Better is to give the dog a chance than for you both to suffer.
> I have hope that you will find good home for him. Fingers crossed


Thanks Andromeda. BTW, I did pick up some essential oils - burning some lavender right now.

Wiccaways has a 6-month waiting list so Jay and I might be together for some time yet. I'm still exploring my options, but as long as we're together, I will try to do my very best to make that time good. Yummy smells and all.

Monica


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Monica - well done for making such a difficult decision. Only you know whether this decision is truly the right thing for Jay, and for you. I can't imagine how you must feel inside, but you are definitely not a terrible person.

I don't know the first thing about rehoming a dog - hopefully some of the other members can help you.

You're right though - every dog deserves the best life it can possibly have, they deserve to be wanted, loved, appreciated, spoiled rotten... It must be so hard recognising that you're not a good match for your dog - I think you're a very strong person and your posts have really touched me. Like I said before, it's so obvious from your posts that you love Jay and that you're putting him first in your decisions, and not yourself.


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## spacekadet (Jan 2, 2011)

Thanks Helbo.
It seems the matter of rehoming is an unknown for many people. I'm having lots of trouble finding advice. Have emailed some other trainers I know so we'll see what they say. 
Monica


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Well keep us updated - and good luck


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## Pawsitive (Mar 24, 2011)

I don't know if I'm allowed to post the name but there is a forum which shows many rescues who will help with rehoming - there are collie ones in particular.

I will pm you. The people on there are lovely and very experienced rehomers.

You can also try to rehome privately with rescue backup if that is something you would prefer.


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## spacekadet (Jan 2, 2011)

Thanks, Pawsitive. Can you try PMing me again? My inbox was full!

Erp, nevermind... just got it.


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## Pawsitive (Mar 24, 2011)

just tried again hope it came through


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## vbud88 (Mar 26, 2011)

I have a golden retriever pup who is coming up for 17 weeks old, we got him at 7 weeks old and boy did we get a shock !! our last goldie who we lost last august was a perfect pup, this one was a biting machine, we had bruises bites holes in our clothes, if it was up to my hubby he would have gone back to the breeder, saying that he wwas completly potty trained by 8 weeks old and never did I poo indoors only a couple wees the first few days,he turned the corner at 14 weeks, think that was when he learned english lol,we took him to puppy training and he had all his shots so he could go for his walks. I love him to bits and all the pain and tears were worth it, he still tries to give the odd bite but I walk out the room and he just goes and gets his toy.my motto is the dog didnt choose you , you chose the dog for better or worse stay in there it will all be worth bolo 14 weeks old 003.jpgit in the long run.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Vbud88 - The difference is Jay has some semi-severe problems, not just puppy needs to grow up problems, and he's almost 2 years old making training more difficult. Progress that happens naturally in time (and your pup settling in to its new house and rules) with puppies doesn't really happen with older dogs. 

The right person training Jay I'm sure will get a fantastic dog out of it. It's up to Spacekadet whether she decides she is the right person to do this with Jay or whether he'd have a better chance with someone else.

Vbud88 - gorgeous pup


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Helbo said:


> The difference is Jay has some semi-severe problems, not just puppy needs to grow up problems, and he's almost 2 years old making training more difficult. Progress that happens naturally in time (and your pup settling in to its new house and rules) with puppies doesn't really happen with older dogs


Woooaaaahhh!! If that were true the DW and VS and other behaviourists would not be in business.

As far as I could see, Jay's issues were dog-socialisation and acting "hyper", the real crusher seemed to be the lifestyle advice given by the breed expert which seems rather at odds to what most sources say. It is tragic that the Pack Leader style approach, leaves owners feeling inadequete and guilty, when they correctly notice the drawbacks of rigid rules.

May be Monica just needed a friend to support her to manage the dog, and give it positive activity and outlets for it's energy?

That said, if you're not up for twice daily exercise (or have your own land), and can't arrange multiple hours activity for a dog, *do not* get a young fit Border Collie!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Helbo said:


> Vbud88 - The difference is Jay has some semi-severe problems, not just puppy needs to grow up problems, and he's almost 2 years old making training more difficult. *Progress that happens naturally in time (and your pup settling in to its new house and rules) with puppies doesn't really happen with older dogs. *
> The right person training Jay I'm sure will get a fantastic dog out of it. It's up to Spacekadet whether she decides she is the right person to do this with Jay or whether he'd have a better chance with someone else.
> 
> Vbud88 - gorgeous pup


Not sure I agree with this completely, I think it does happen, it just takes alot longer!

I've posted & sought advice alot regarding my second rescue dog who has anxiety issues, lacks socialisation skills (which manifests in being reactive with other dogs) is wary of people approaching us on walks, poor eye contact, no basic obedience, compulsive digging when stressed - I would go on but it's a long list!!!

I have many days when I despair in my ability & Roxy's to respond to training but she IS making progress, it is just slower than I expected but after 2 yrs of no one doing anything with her this is not going to be an over night fix.

PF has been a fantastic support for me & I have received some brillinat advice forom memebers on here (as well as working with a behaviourist).

I am in no way knocking the OP & if she really feels that she can't do the best for her dog then maybe rehoming is the answer. I am in no way an experienced dog owner but with the right support & consistancy you can make progress.

I attend regular classes with other people who have 'special needs' dogs which makes it easier to watch how they interact with their dogs (so you can apply this to your own situations), we discuss problems in a group (a bit like therapy at times!), get the dogs to interact with the 'stooge' dogs, have regular sessions individually, etc. I have found this be beneficial not just for Roxy but for me as well as my confidence did take a hit a few months ago.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Don't want to argue, I didn't phrase what I meant correctly again, forgot i need to be more careful on this forum - 

I just meant that Vbud88 was talking about the progression of a puppy settling into its new home, not the problems of an older dog like Jay. It's not fair to compare the two in my opinion.


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## tiny (Feb 1, 2011)

spacekadet said:


> Hey guys. Kind of a weird day. Well, not that weird. I was out of the house a bit and had a chance to think about things, without Jay around, pulling on my heart strings. Thought a lot about what Helbo said and thought "right, I'm going to make a decision by the end of the week."
> 
> And then I got home and I realized that my "end of the week" idea is only prolonging a decision I think I've already made: I need to find Jay a new home. I'm just not ready for this. My temper alone... ugh, I feel terrible. I know I'm not a bad person but making this decision makes me feel that way.
> 
> ...


Dont be too hard on yourself Spacekadet - you obviously wanted this dog but you werent the right person to give him a forever home. You picked a very difficult dog and after a difficult time personally just werent strong enough to cope. Find him a good home and then move on. Give yourself time and then maybe get yourself a calmer dog that doesnt need so much attention. Ive found myself at the end of my tether on several occassions recently but Helbo and the other forum members have gotten me through. We'll be here if you ever need a listening ear. Good luck to you and Jay xx


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## spacekadet (Jan 2, 2011)

Further to Rob's comment, here is one of the most gutting parts of this whole thing:

I LOVE the outdoors. I live in the country because I love to walk. It is nooo problem for me walking twice a day. I would walk for hours. I love foraging and bird watching and it's what I do. Jay and I go out three times a day - a long walk in the AM and two shorter strolls in the afternoon and evening. (The joys of working from home.)

I got a dog because I love being outside, live in beautiful, open countryside, and wanted to share it with a canine companion. And I wanted an energetic dog who could keep up with me when I felt like going for an all-day (or multi-day!) walk in the Cotswolds!

However, there have been no long country walks as Jay cannot handle all of the stimuli of the new smells / sights / people / etc. Our walks are very constrained... there are large fields around my house that I take him to. I have a 20m long line that I walk him with so he gets to run around (recall training gives him extra running, too).

I've got the energy to have a dog. But I don't have the knowledge and experience with border collies (or any dog) to manage the behavioural issues, not on my own. I suppose then, yes, maybe if I had a friend to support me through this, it might be different. But as it stands, I live alone, in a rural locale. On my own, this is just too much.

Monica


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

spacekadet said:


> I LOVE the outdoors. I live in the country because I love to walk. It is nooo problem for me walking twice a day
> ...
> I've got the energy to have a dog. But I don't have the knowledge and experience with border collies (or any dog) to manage the behavioural issues, not on my own. I suppose then, yes, maybe if I had a friend to support me through this, it might be different. But as it stands, I live alone, in a rural locale. On my own, this is just too much


It really sounds like a BC would suit you, and prove an intensely reliable companion for your trips out. So long as you followed the kind of advice, given at somewhere like Dogstardaily.com on puppy rearing, I'm sure you'ld enjoy puppy classes and such. Habituate to daily life things, people, house noises, clapping, music, TV, traffic, dogs, children playing etc etc and then they're not an intense issue for the adult dog, but normal part of life.



spacekadet said:


> However, there have been no long country walks as Jay cannot handle all of the stimuli of the new smells / sights / people / etc. Our walks are very constrained... there are large fields around my house that I take him to. I have a 20m long line that I walk him with so he gets to run around (recall training gives him extra running, too)


It's a real shame, as your situation sounds ideal for Jay, I was rooting for you. If you had some small successes and gained confidence, it seemed like a good chance that you'ld feel more able. I'm sure I'm not the only person, wishing we could help more.

Taking on a poorly socialised dog, and one that reacts things in extremely intense way, is a hard task, so I think we understand well that it is a real personal challenge and sacrifice rehabilitating a wrongly raised dog, and not for the faint hearted.

I think I probably have experinced how your dog reacts, as my dog's litter mate, appeared similar, after a great start. She was quick to learn, but I could tell under-habituated, a football lying on verge phased her, she was more comfy with cats than dogs, despite having the calm example of her brother, and handlers experienced with BC's. Cars would have her dangerously fascinated, spinning and wanting to chase them. If my Nieces and others less doggy weren't involved, we may have kept her to work with, and let my other Sister have our dog, but as it was we had no option but to return back to breeder, which wasn't the easiest thing to do, as she showed much potential winning us other. In her case I have a suspicion, that additives in some dental sticks may have exacerbated her issues, and caused her to fail on the most important day, meeting her new intended family.

Oddly today on my way home, I picked up a loose Sharpei Bitch, with signs of being in season and no collar or ID, who appeared very weilling to join the "family". Anyway helped keep her calm and go with CSO to the local police station, where she'll be picked up by Dog warden. But for the imminent sex, I might have had her checked for a chip by the nearby vet to try to have an owner contacted directly, as it was without a place to leave my cycle, I couldn't manage. I hope that bitch lands on her feet, and doesn't end up dog-aggressive or instutionalised by a long stay in kennels.


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## Debxan (Jan 9, 2011)

TheFredChallenge said:


> I was soooooo looking forward to enjoying puppyhood as I have a lot of time to give a dog and had waited a long time. I wanted a small Lab - what did I get????? A massive one that everybody has to say oh god he's going to be massive, wow look at the size of his paws,ooh you've got your hands full etc etc and that just reminds and upsets me of what I seem to get over temporarily.....but on a regular basis I get v. upset and teary about. People just remind me of the fact that I do indeed have a massive test on my hands when they see him bounding towards them and their children and I'm trying to control him on the lead. By the way he's only 16 weeks!!!!


Hang in there with your lab puppy. Mine was very strong and boisterous too but we persevered and overcame it gradually. It was really worth it. My dear old boy lived to be 14 and was the most wonderful dog. It is easy to forget how challenging the early years can be especially with labs. I believe I read somewhere (was it Bruce Fogle that I was reading?) that they mature later than some breeds.

Good luck.


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## Debxan (Jan 9, 2011)

spacekadet said:


> I've got the energy to have a dog. But I don't have the knowledge and experience with border collies (or any dog) to manage the behavioural issues, not on my own. I suppose then, yes, maybe if I had a friend to support me through this, it might be different. But as it stands, I live alone, in a rural locale. On my own, this is just too much.


I think managing a dog like this is difficult on your own and clearly he is a complex character. I have been watching Victoria Stillwell on the TV (6pm Pick TV) and find her methods very interesting - mind you not tried them myself. It is a bit of a long shot but you might gain some tips from that programme. She does seem to deal successfully with some very difficult dogs.

I sympathise with your problem and wish you all the best. Please let us know how you get on.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi Monica. 

Sorry to hear you are feeling so low. 

I took on two street dogs from Greece three years ago. I had never had dogs before and I encountered so many problems. Except I had it twice over! I too was totally overwhelmed by this and doubted my ability to cope. 

I worked with a behaviourist. Watched and read what I could by Cesar Milan. I did an online course in canine psychology and gradually began to UNDERSTAND their behaviour. 

A year later I took on another rescue dog and life is so much better. 

You have been given lots of advice but I just wanted to give you a bit of support. 

PM me if you want any further help x


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I can't remember if this has been suggested before but have you tried Zylkene at all? We use that with Roxy & it does help. We ran out when we first got her & did notice a difference after a few days of her not having it.

Dog Star Daily (website) as recommended by RobD-BCactive is a fantastic website, really useful. Also Tripods website (Pet Central), the book 'Click to Calm' has been really useful for us aswell.

What happens when you are out on your walks, how does he act? I know you say he cannot handle the new smells, sights, etc but how does he display this? Just thought if you could details exact behaviours a bit more someone could give you more advice. Is there anyway you could video this & upload it?

Also have you not been able to have regular sessions with a behaviourist (APDT registered) these have helped me alot & have given me more confidence.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Hi Spacekadet & Jay - how are you both doing?


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## Smiffys mum (Feb 22, 2011)

hi

I have just picked up on this thread. Have you heard of Jan Fennell the dog listener?

She has a great DVD which really makes you understand how you should be training your dog. If you google her name /dog listener, you will find a link to a directory of fantastic people trained by her. I am sure that there is one close to you. I called a lady called Carol who lives not far from me and she has given me the most fantastic advice with regards to my airedale terrier; once again not the easiest of dogs to train.

Please give it a go, it will honestly make all the difference to you and your dog.

Tracey


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## mgarr (Apr 4, 2011)

BC are very interagency I had a rescue and it wasnt until we had him for a few weeks that we saw his trough colours, he would go for other dogs people on bikes, some times he would walk around people as if he was to go to bight them but thank goodness he didnt as I got to know the signs. We couldnt have men walk into the house with glasses on as he would grille at them and bark. On the leed he was so bad.

I could go on and on about the bad side of him but I put lots of my time into him and trained him with hand signs plus calling him plus heel work .When I use to tell people what he was like they dont believe me they say but he is walking right by your side. I am disable and if I had fall he would come and see if I was ok sit there until I was back on my feet I had not trained him to do this.
Last year I had to put him to sleep that broke my heart.

So please dont give up on the dog


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

It's not fair to plead with someone to not 'give up' (on) a dog 

There are people in this world that give animals away because they're selfish and can't be bothered, maybe they were ill-informed about what owning a dog is really like - these people should never have got the pet in the first place. Slogans like 'a dog is for life not just for christmas' were made for these types of people. 

BUT, Spacekadet isn't one of those people. There are people who have to give up dogs because it'd be in the dogs best interest to live with someone else, despite how terrible they'd feel about it or how attached they are to the dog. There are people on this forum that have had to decide to get rid of a beloved dog for one reason or another, and it's not our place to judge any of them. 



Spacekadet has to decide whats best for Jay and herself and she knows we'll be here to support her whatever she decides.


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