# Awful Fire



## rona

In tower block in London


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## stockwellcat.

I switched on TV and saw this, this morning. Absolutely aweful. People are possibly trapped in the building still and the fire has been raging since 12:30am or 1am this morning. I hope everyone is ok?

*Ladbroke Grove fire: Screaming people trapped as fire engulfs 27-storey tower block in Notting Hill*

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...rey-tower-block-in-notting-hill-a3564526.html


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## lullabydream

Dreadfully sad..poor people


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## rona

stockwellcat said:


> I hope everyone is ok?


I can't see that many would have got out


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## stockwellcat.

rona said:


> I can't see that many would have got out


The fire brigade told residents to stay inside their flats as they have a stay put policy in tower blocks if there's a fire.


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## 1290423

rona said:


> I can't see that many would have got out


Me neither, terrible. Would expect there to be an up-to-date system in there, water sprinklers, or I don't know whatever they use these days


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## chissy 15

Watching it live on GMB, just hope most have gotten out safely


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## stockwellcat.

Fire Brigade Commissionaire has just confirmed there is a number of fatalities and the fire is an unpresidented fire. She said she has seen nothing like this in her 29 year service.

Witnesses have said they saw people jumping from their windows.


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## Happy Paws2

I've just put the TV on, Stunned, how the hell in this day and age can a building go up so quickly.

They have just said there are a number of facilities hope there aren't to many.


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## Lurcherlad

Desperately, utterly, tragic! Cannot comprehend


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## cava14 una

Just awful they must have ben so frightened. God bless all involved


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## MiffyMoo

stockwellcat said:


> I switched on TV and saw this, this morning. Absolutely aweful. People are possibly trapped in the building still and the fire has been raging since 12:30am or 1am this morning. I hope everyone is ok?
> 
> *Ladbroke Grove fire: Screaming people trapped as fire engulfs 27-storey tower block in Notting Hill*
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...rey-tower-block-in-notting-hill-a3564526.html


Oh God, that's horrible, those poor people!


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## MilleD

stockwellcat said:


> The fire brigade told residents to stay inside their flats as they have a stay put policy in tower blocks if there's a fire.


Do they? That must be terrifying when every bone in your body is telling you to run.


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## Creativecat

Very sad 
Alot of implications over fire regulations are gonna be unfortunately unraveled over the next few days . Iv heared my local mp who lost his job on Friday then parachuted in to TM cabinet over the weekend was housing minister that was abt to air his concerns since the last bad fire . But hasn't Will soon know more i guess in coming days . Just feel sad for the unfortunate people involved


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## MiffyMoo

Creativecat said:


> Very sad
> Alot of implications over fire regulations are gonna be unfortunately unraveled over the next few days . Iv heared my local mp who lost his job on Friday then parachuted in to TM cabinet over the weekend was housing minister that was abt to air his concerns since the last bad fire . But hasn't Will soon know more i guess in coming days . Just feel sad for the unfortunate people involved


I always assumed that those concrete blocks were as safe as you could get. Not so, it seems


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## MilleD

There's some talk that exterior appearance improving cladding that was put on a couple of years ago is serving as an accelerant.


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## Charity

Our thoughts are with everyone concerned, absolutely awful. I've never seen a fire so rapid as this, its very strange. Whatever happened to outside fire escapes which might at least save some? . Doesn't seem they've learnt anything since Towering Inferno all those years back which was made specifically to highlight problems of high rise blocks.


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## Creativecat

I beleive they spent alot on refurbishment a few yrs back . Bit sadley this is one of a number of serious fires and fatalities over the last ten yrs but this does seem to be by far the worst iv seen


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## stockwellcat.

MilleD said:


> Do they?


Yes they do. Residents have been telling the news reporters they were told in leaflets and from fire fighters to in the event if a fire to stay in their flats until told to evacuate. Fire fighters believe you have at least an hour of safety by staying in your flat or by staying put. My friend lives in a block a road away from me and is told exactly the same thing. It's standard fire safety advice.

It looks as if residents where complaining about fire safety after the block that caught fire had completed refurbishment last year.

My thoughts are with everyone caught up in this dreadful event.


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## JANICE199

*Praise has to go to the firefighters that are in this building as it burns. They have so far reached the 20th floor. This is one job i could never imagine having to do.*
*







*


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## stockwellcat.

This is what can be seen from my friends block a road away from me which is nowhere near this fire. If you look in the distance there is a plume of smoke and a cloud of smoke.


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## MilleD

stockwellcat said:


> It looks as if residents where complaining about fire safety after the block that caught fire had completed refurbishment last year.


Yes, they were saying that only a major fire will make people take notice of the bad fire safety in the building.


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## picaresque

This is horrifying. Those tower blocks are death traps.


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## stockwellcat.

This was the fire safety notices in Grenfell Tower.








It clearly says to stay put.


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## MilleD

stockwellcat said:


> This was the fire safety notices in Grenfell Tower.
> View attachment 314623


It's a strange piece of subjective advice though isn't it?

If I were in a flat in a block, and that block was on fire, I'd pretty much think that _was_ affecting my flat.


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## Calvine

Read it was a faulty fridge exploding? Dreadful.


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## stockwellcat.

MilleD said:


> It's a strange piece of subjective advice though isn't it?
> 
> If I were in a flat in a block, and that block was on fire, I'd pretty much think that _was_ affecting my flat.


My friend in the block a road away from my house says they have been told to stay put unless there is a fire inside your flat or directly affecting the floor your flat is on.

I am with you on this that I'd be out of the building if there was a fire.


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## kimthecat

Heartbreaking ,  People were dropping their children from windows begging people to save them , the knew they themselves couldn't be saved .


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## MiffyMoo

A friend just posted this on his Facebook. Maybe worth spreading the word:

Londoners,

Clothes, toys, toiletries, or even bottles of water needed for those evacuated due to Grenfell Tower fire.

If you are able, drop off whatever you can to: Clements Church, 95 Sirdar Road, W11 4EQ.

Traffic is a bit insane at the moment, so please plan ahead.


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## MiffyMoo

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/


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## rottiepointerhouse

Haunting images, I know I should be braver but I couldn't watch and listen to the poor people who escaped telling stories about those trapped. Impossible to imagine what they must have gone through.


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## MiffyMoo

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Haunting images, I know I should be braver but I couldn't watch and listen to the poor people who escaped telling stories about those trapped. Impossible to imagine what they must have gone through.


As soon as I clicked on the initial article and saw it had a video, I closed out of it, in case the video started playing


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## Odin_cat

So sad, so many people have lost so much. The 'lucky' ones still have their lives. 

Thinking of everyone involved, I hope the right questions are asked when the time is right.


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## LinznMilly

Speechless. Just .... there are no words.


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## rottiepointerhouse

Looks like the cladding catching fire and blowing out the windows so fire able to travel through the block that way


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## kittih

Tower blocks have several features that assist in reducing or preventing the spread of fire.

Firstly each flat is a separate concrete box. Each flat has a fire door that is rated to resist smoke and fire for at least an hour, usually more. Stairwells are separated from each floor by fire doors that prevent smoke from getting into the stairwell and also prevent fire from spreading. There are also usually firedoors at intervals in corridors if they are long.

Service and utility conduits and spaces should be sectioned off at each floor to prevent the spread of fire and smoke via these.

There should be hose reel outlets at every floor to allow the fire service to attach their hoses.

The advice to stay inside the flat is good. Most people are injured or killed by smoke inhalation rather than directly from the fire. It can take only a few breaths of toxic smoke to render someone unconscious or kill them.

Keeping the door closed should prevent fire and smoke from entering the apartment for a long time.

The problem is these safety aspects can fail.

People opening their doors or leaving their flats can let in smoke into their homes and into other areas. Fire doors are often propped open (I have seen this several times). Smoke alarms can be tampered with as can the hose reel attachments. In one block (and it is probably not uncommon in others) the hose reels / attachment points have to be locked so stop vandalism. The fire service have to carry a key / bolt croppers to gain access.

It is possible for fire to easy spread between floors if service and utility ducting isn't separated between floors.

Even if all the above are in place and working OK vertical fire spread can occur on the outside of the building. Fire can spread from a lower window upwards and cause the window above or the frame to fail allowing fire into the flat above.

Making changes to the exterior structure / surface of a block of flats can change how fire is spread. Adding cladding or other combustible materials will increase spread.

If you live in a block of flats or indeed if you are unable to leave a room in your house the best thing you can do is stay put, block the doors to stop smoke getting in and call for help. Even in house fires a sealed room is safe to remain in for at least 30 minutes, more than enough time for the fire service to arrive.

I feel terribly for all the people caught up in this tragic incident and their families. I also have deep admiration and feel for the fire and rescue service too. Flat fires are very dangerous for fire crews and they do sometimes lose their lives (eg Stevenage).


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## Elles

Horrific. 

The news has got to stop interviewing individuals for tragic and terrifying stories. We don't need it and the families of those poor, poor people don't need it. If you're trying to find information about loved ones you really don't need to be seeing and hearing terrible reports of suffering. The fire service are still working to put out the fire and looking for people, if someone stuck a camera in my face I'd tell them to piss off.


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## suewhite

Elles said:


> Horrific.
> 
> The news has got to stop interviewing individuals for tragic and terrifying stories. We don't need it and the families of those poor, poor people don't need it. If you're trying to find information about loved ones you really don't need to be seeing and hearing terrible reports of suffering. The fire service are still working to put out the fire and looking for people, if someone stuck a camera in my face I'd tell them to piss off.


I agree, this morning on the news they showed a man who was nearly blind standing at his window they said they had been filming him for an hour he looked so bewildered, then another person saw a child thrown from a window and believe it or not the interviewer asked was it a boy or girl and how old did the person think he/she was.


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## MiffyMoo

suewhite said:


> I agree, this morning on the news they showed a man who was nearly blind standing at his window they said they had been filming him for an hour he looked so bewildered, then another person saw a child thrown from a window and believe it or not the interviewer asked was it a boy or girl and how old did the person think he/she was.


Where does the humanity go? How could you just stand there asking inane questions?


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## Phoenix Rising

Apparently JC tried to pass a law last year that landlords should make houses safe and it was rejected. The block was clad with some kind of plastic when they renovated it which went up like paper!

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...-safe-last-year-conservatives-rejected/14/06/

Tories also closed 3 fire stations near Grenfell and resisted a sprinkler installation

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/14/to...grenfell-and-resisted-sprinkler-installation/

And people still believe we can trust the Tories to do what's best for most of the country???? How many more people need to die at the hands of the Tories before we're allowed to get rid of them?


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## MiffyMoo

Phoenix Rising said:


> Apparently JC tried to pass a law last year that landlords should make houses safe and it was rejected. The block was clad with some kind of plastic when they renovated it which went up like paper!
> 
> http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...-safe-last-year-conservatives-rejected/14/06/
> 
> Tories also closed 3 fire stations near Grenfell and resisted a sprinkler installation
> 
> https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/14/to...grenfell-and-resisted-sprinkler-installation/
> 
> And people still believe we can trust the Tories to do what's best for most of the country???? How many more people need to die at the hands of the Tories before we're allowed to get rid of them?


Maybe you would like to take a break from electioneering on this thread


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## lorilu

Are there any PF members involved? I cried all the way to work after seeing this. Have no idea how I got here. Deadly terrorist attacks are horrifying, but this, something like this, should not happen.


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## Honeys mum

Its terrible those poor people and children, they have lost everything, and some their lives. I pray its not too many.

Praise goes out to all the fire fighters and rescue services, yet again risking their live to save others.What on earth would we do without these brave people, god bless you all.
This should never have happened in this day and age. My heart goes out to everyone concerned.


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## Calvine

Phoenix Rising said:


> Apparently JC tried to pass a law last year that landlords should make houses safe and it was rejected. The block was clad with some kind of plastic when they renovated it which went up like paper!


Just read that too about the plastic cladding...surely they test to see if things are flammable or not?


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## Elles

I don't think they're saying that the cladding burned, but rather there was a gap between the cladding and the concrete that acted like a flue. I only heard about 3 minutes of the report. I turned the tv over when I realised what it was about I'm afraid, but I heard that bit and a few seconds of someone being asked what a woman was telling him on his mobile. That was more than enough for me.


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## picaresque

Social housing is a political issue, no getting around it

https://amp.ibtimes.co.uk/full-list...aking-properties-fit-human-habitation-1537725


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## cheekyscrip

So sorry for everyone there and their pets....

Definitely someone needs to explain how it happened and regulations must change.


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## 1290423

Calvine said:


> Read it was a faulty fridge exploding? Dreadful.


Yes, thats what the are saying on the fourth floor but its unconfirmed


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## JANICE199

MiffyMoo said:


> Maybe you would like to take a break from electioneering on this thread


*Like it or not, politics do have an impact on peoples lives. *

*" Theresa May's new chief of staff is facing serious questions in the aftermath of the devastating Grenfell Tower fire in west London after it emerged he delayed a review into fire safety in high-rise apartments."*
*https://www.rt.com/uk/392238-grenfell-tower-london-fire-safety/*


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## crystalwitch

kittih said:


> Tower blocks have several features that assist in reducing or preventing the spread of fire.
> 
> Firstly each flat is a separate concrete box. Each flat has a fire door that is rated to resist smoke and fire for at least an hour, usually more. Stairwells are separated from each floor by fire doors that prevent smoke from getting into the stairwell and also prevent fire from spreading. There are also usually firedoors at intervals in corridors if they are long.
> 
> Service and utility conduits and spaces should be sectioned off at each floor to prevent the spread of fire and smoke via these.
> 
> There should be hose reel outlets at every floor to allow the fire service to attach their hoses.
> 
> The advice to stay inside the flat is good. Most people are injured or killed by smoke inhalation rather than directly from the fire. It can take only a few breaths of toxic smoke to render someone unconscious or kill them.
> 
> Keeping the door closed should prevent fire and smoke from entering the apartment for a long time.
> 
> The problem is these safety aspects can fail.
> 
> People opening their doors or leaving their flats can let in smoke into their homes and into other areas. Fire doors are often propped open (I have seen this several times). Smoke alarms can be tampered with as can the hose reel attachments. In one block (and it is probably not uncommon in others) the hose reels / attachment points have to be locked so stop vandalism. The fire service have to carry a key / bolt croppers to gain access.
> 
> It is possible for fire to easy spread between floors if service and utility ducting isn't separated between floors.
> 
> Even if all the above are in place and working OK vertical fire spread can occur on the outside of the building. Fire can spread from a lower window upwards and cause the window above or the frame to fail allowing fire into the flat above.
> 
> Making changes to the exterior structure / surface of a block of flats can change how fire is spread. Adding cladding or other combustible materials will increase spread.
> 
> If you live in a block of flats or indeed if you are unable to leave a room in your house the best thing you can do is stay put, block the doors to stop smoke getting in and call for help. Even in house fires a sealed room is safe to remain in for at least 30 minutes, more than enough time for the fire service to arrive.
> 
> All true - also, it is much easier for firefighters to see where the most danger is if they are not being distracted by everyone trying to get out, and it is much easier to evacuate a floor at a time without everyone panicking - in so many disasters, panic is responsible for more deaths than the actual disaster. I have also been worried about the animals in the block - with over a hundred families, it seems likely that at least some would have had pets.
> 
> I feel terribly for all the people caught up in this tragic incident and their families. I also have deep admiration and feel for the fire and rescue service too. Flat fires are very dangerous for fire crews and they do sometimes lose their lives (eg Stevenage).


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## Gemmaa

I'm so happy that the elderly man was rescued from his flat. I was so worried when he was on the news and stopped coming to the window just as the smoke got really bad.

People in this country are amazing, the way everyone rallies together, and we're so lucky to have such amazing emergency services. Brave, brave people.


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## kittih

Elles said:


> I don't think they're saying that the cladding burned, but rather there was a gap between the cladding and the concrete that acted like a flue..


Yes this sort of gap can give rise to the chimney effect. Small vertical spaces cause the heat, hot flammable gasses and flames to rise quickly and spread. They are difficult to extinguish too as the outer surface protects them from the cooling / extinguishing effect of the water.

Even if the boarding had flame retardants the heat and extent of the fire would be so great that it wouldn't matter too much.


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## 3dogs2cats

Those poor people! I gather there are still people unaccounted for, their loved ones must be frantic.


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## Rafa

Phoenix Rising said:


> Apparently JC tried to pass a law last year that landlords should make houses safe and it was rejected. The block was clad with some kind of plastic when they renovated it which went up like paper!
> 
> http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...-safe-last-year-conservatives-rejected/14/06/
> 
> Tories also closed 3 fire stations near Grenfell and resisted a sprinkler installation
> 
> https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/14/to...grenfell-and-resisted-sprinkler-installation/
> 
> And people still believe we can trust the Tories to do what's best for most of the country???? How many more people need to die at the hands of the Tories before we're allowed to get rid of them?


Surely there are sufficient, interminable political threads running on here at the moment.

Can't you go and have a rant on one of them?

Do you really believe this thread, about such an awful tragedy, is the appropriate place?


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## rottiepointerhouse

12 people now confirmed to have died


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## kimthecat

*Mohammed Shafiq*‏Verified [email protected]*mshafiquk* 1h1 hour ago

These are Heroes, firefighters spending hours trying to help people and not giving up. #*GlenfellTower*


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## kimthecat

JANICE199 said:


> *Like it or not, politics do have an impact on peoples lives. *
> 
> *" Theresa May's new chief of staff is facing serious questions in the aftermath of the devastating Grenfell Tower fire in west London after it emerged he delayed a review into fire safety in high-rise apartments."*
> *https://www.rt.com/uk/392238-grenfell-tower-london-fire-safety/*


have a bit of decency and stick it in the GE thread or somewhere , that's what i did .


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## kimthecat

rottiepointerhouse said:


> 12 people now confirmed to have died


Sadly, Im sure there will be many more . 



kittih said:


> Yes this sort of gap can give rise to the chimney effect. Small vertical spaces cause the heat, hot flammable gasses and flames to rise quickly and spread. They are difficult to extinguish too as the outer surface protects them from the cooling / extinguishing effect of the water.
> 
> Even if the boarding had flame retardants the heat and extent of the fire would be so great that it wouldn't matter too much.


That is very worrying , there are many more modern blocks of private flats built around west london with this cladding.


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## 1290423

They are saying that is unlikely that anyone on the top two floors survived. Just terrible, those poor poor people.


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## Honeys mum

OMG on the news now, just to upsetting to watch Those poor people, I do wish the News reporters wouldn;t bombard the people with questions asking them how they feel about what they saw.
It must be so awful for the people who are looking for their loved ones, my heart goes out to them.

Once again our fire fighters and the emergency services are so brave, they deserve medals, they go far beyond the call of duty. We are so lucky to have them


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## havoc

kittih said:


> Yes this sort of gap can give rise to the chimney effect. Small vertical spaces cause the heat, hot flammable gasses and flames to rise quickly and spread. They are difficult to extinguish too as the outer surface protects them from the cooling / extinguishing effect of the water.
> 
> Even if the boarding had flame retardants the heat and extent of the fire would be so great that it wouldn't matter too much.


All this is obviously well known - common knowledge even to those who know something about the subject. Does beg the question as to why it's allowed. One way or another something has gone seriously wrong here. I can't put in a new drain without building regs being all over me. Surely the same scrutiny applies when lives are at stake.


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## kittih

havoc said:


> All this is obviously well known - common knowledge even to those who know something about the subject. Does beg the question as to why it's allowed. One way or another something has gone seriously wrong here. I can't put in a new drain without building regs being all over me. Surely the same scrutiny applies when lives are at stake.


You are right there should be a high level of scrutiny and all the fire regs should have been complied with.

I noticed one of the residents on the news stating he didn't hear any alarms and in the past alarms had sounded. Also someone commented that smoke was able to fill the corridors and stairwell as the fire doors were always open as people were continuously going through them.

The stairwell should have been safe (as much as possible) from smoke so if what was said was true then either the fire doors and compartmentation weren't working effectively or human behaviour factors hadn't been sufficiently considered when designing these compartments. One witness said it was so dark that he couldn't see the end of his arm. If this was the case I would also question what emergency lighting provision there was on the escape routes.

Depending on the cause of the fire it wouldn't take that long for the flat where the fire started to become fully involved. However if the main door to the flat was closed when the occupant left it should have prevented smoke from filling the corridor.

The fire investigation team have a long and arduous job ahead of them once the very distressing and sad task of locating and recovering the remaining occupants is completed. We will have to wait to hear what they say before we can begin to understand where there were failings and how they should have been or could be resolved.

The fire service and all the other emergency services do an amazing job especially as they often put themselves into danger and witness harrowing sights both during the incident and in its aftermath.


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## grumpy goby

It is a heartbreaking situation ... I hope there is a full audit of the refurb work to investigate the condition in which it was signed off... I have seen an awful lot of terrible fire stopping in my time, which basically renders fire compartments and separation redundant. Stairwells for fire escape should be a cell in their own right as well as vertical compartments to stop fire spreading upwards, but something has gone seriously wrong.

The reason for keeping windows closed is to prevent hot smoke and flames moving into other areas and spreading or starting new fires in other blocks (a fresh air intake on an AHU which fails to shut down could spread a fire by this method) and the failure of the fire alarm to activate could prevent the smoke extract kicking in, and allow any air handling systems to continue to operate moving hot smoke around the building.

I hope the maintenance and refurb companies have their books in order as I imagine there will be a whole lot of failures which have resulted in this... why did the fire alarm not activate? Or the sprinkler system? Were they commissioned properly? Were they tested regularly and faults rectified appropriately? What was the compartmentation condition following the refurb and was the stopping certified? Were appropriate installation methods and materials used and compliant for a residential building? When was the last fire systems integration test... 

I have so many questions, and my heart breaks for those effected due to whatever failures have occurred. With the law as it is and many many codes of practice for fire systems both active and passive, there really is no excuse for such loss of life.


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## kittih

grumpy goby said:


> It is a heartbreaking situation ... With the law as it is and many many codes of practice for fire systems both active and passive, there really is no excuse for such loss of life.


I totally agree. Lots of questions.and likely a long list of failures.



grumpy goby said:


> I have seen an awful lot of terrible fire stopping in my time, which basically renders fire compartments and separation redundant.


Me too :-(


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## Pawscrossed

My godson has survived the fire. Just but has lost everything. He and others had campaigned for a long time to get the fire safety checked after the refurb and they had no response from the Kensington and Chelsea TOC. They had tried to raise the issue with Gavin Barwell and no replies. They were worried because after any redesign there should be revised safety advice and the fire safety officers had already pulled up the developers over another site which Barwellknew abou.

We are so lucky to have my godson but even in his upset and utter shock, he is asking why when it could well have been preventable. There is a lot of sadness but so much anger because of the cuts in an area that has two very different demographics. He is still unable to locate his g/f. It's utterly awful but politics has already come into it for the survivors.


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## MiffyMoo

Pawscrossed said:


> My godson has survived the fire. Just but has lost everything. He and others had campaigned for a long time to get the fire safety checked after the refurb and they had no response from the Kensington and Chelsea TOC. They had tried to raise the issue with Gavin Barwell and no replies. They were worried because after any redesign there should be revised safety advice and the fire safety officers had already pulled up the developers over another site which Barwellknew abou.
> 
> We are so lucky to have my godson but even in his upset and utter shock, he is asking why when it could well have been preventable. There is a lot of sadness but so much anger because of the cuts in an area that has two very different demographics. He is still unable to locate his g/f. It's utterly awful but politics has already come into it for the survivors.


Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry for him. I can't imagine how he's feeling st the moment; will keep everything crossed that his girlfriend is found safe and well


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## Elles

I too hope your godson finds his girlfriend soon. It's terrible.


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## Valanita

It was terrible to see on the news. I do hope all who want to find loved ones find them safe & well. My thoughts with those who have lost loved ones.


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## Honeys mum

Pawscrossed said:


> My godson has survived the fire. Just but has lost everything. He and others had campaigned for a long time to get the fire safety checked after the refurb and they had no response from the Kensington and Chelsea TOC. They had tried to raise the issue with Gavin Barwell and no replies. They were worried because after any redesign there should be revised safety advice and the fire safety officers had already pulled up the developers over another site which Barwellknew abou.


Residents warned of fire risk in Grenfell Tower before blaze

Grenfell Tower landlord admits that concerns were raised about building being a fire hazard


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## kimthecat

Just thinking of the people involved , those who escaped the fire and those who saw awful sights and hearing the screams of thoe trapped , they wont sleep tonight without nightmares. It will always be with them.

Also thinking of their pets that died too


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## Ceiling Kitty

My friend lives in Kensington and the building is next to her children's school. She knows many of the dead and says the fire service have told her that the number of fatalities (off the record) is around 160 at the moment.

Thoughts are with all those affected xxx


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## MiffyMoo

Ceiling Kitty said:


> My friend lives in Kensington and the building is next to her children's school. She knows many of the dead and says the fire service have told her that the number of fatalities (off the record) is around 160 at the moment.
> 
> Thoughts are with all those affected xxx


Oh my God!


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## 1290423

Ceiling Kitty said:


> My friend lives in Kensington and the building is next to her children's school. She knows many of the dead and says the fire service have told her that the number of fatalities (off the record) is around 160 at the moment.
> 
> Thoughts are with all those affected xxx


I so so hope you are wrong, just speechless


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## Ceiling Kitty

DT said:


> I so so hope you are wrong, just speechless


I hope I am too.


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## cows573

Tragic! Absolutely tragic! I can't even begin to imagine what something like that could be like.

It was lovely to hear that the local community and religions were rallying around to try and help the survivors. Especially nice after the recent incidents we have seen of hate, that all races and religions can join together in times of tragedy.

Not so nice to hear that my 13 year old daughter and her class were told, at school, by their social studies teacher, that this was another terrorist attack....


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

cows573 said:


> Not us nice to hear that my 13 year old daughter and her class were told, at school, by their social studies, that this was another terrorist attack....


FFS!


----------



## cows573

Missed out teacher, edited now...

I was horrified too @Ceiling Kitty! My daughter is concerned enough about all the attacks without scaremongering....


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

cows573 said:


> Missed out teacher, edited now...
> 
> I was horrified too @Ceiling Kitty! My daughter is concerned enough about all the attacks without scaremongering....


I think I'd say something to the school about that.


----------



## kimthecat

Watching the news and seeing the film of people at windows and a man waving for help. I wonder if they survived , I hope so.
I don't think they should show it .


----------



## grumpy goby

So it seems no sprinklers as part of the refurb as it is not required by law to retrofit. I hope whoever made that decision had a solid case beyond one based solely on money


----------



## Lurcherlad

I hate the way the media report these tragic events - they turn them into a circus


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Sadly, Im sure there will be many more .


God knows how many unaccounted for. And apparently there were many Muslims not in bed as they were fasting and waiting to eat at 1 am...the death toll would have been even worse.


----------



## Phoenix Rising

Sweety said:


> Surely there are sufficient, interminable political threads running on here at the moment.
> 
> Can't you go and have a rant on one of them?
> 
> Do you really believe this thread, about such an awful tragedy, is the appropriate place?


People need to know that this was not just an accident it was a result of cutbacks and decisions the Tories made to save money. This is a govt that makes an habit of this and it's costing lives! How many more people need to lose theirs before people wake up and realise the connections!

http://evolvepolitics.com/the-grenf...nd-rogue-landlords-have-blood-on-their-hands/


----------



## Honeys mum

Ceiling Kitty said:


> My friend lives in Kensington and the building is next to her children's school. She knows many of the dead and says the fire service have told her that the number of fatalities (off the record) is around 160 at the moment.
> 
> Thoughts are with all those affected xxx


I pray that is wrong. There are questions that need to be answered regarding this awful tradegy. It should never have happened.

Gavin Barwell: Theresa May's new chief of staff faces questions over delayed tower block fire safety review | The Independent
Senior Tories under pressure over failure to act on fire safety warnings - 
Gavin Barwell: Theresa May's new chief of staff faces questions over delayed tower block fire safety review | The Independent


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I don't think they should show it .


The papers are doing the same, photographs with a ring round a window where some poor soul is waving to attract attention to the fact that they are there.


----------



## JANICE199

lorilu said:


> A





kimthecat said:


> have a bit of decency and stick it in the GE thread or somewhere , that's what i did .


*I was not being disrespectful, just stating facts like others have done also. *


----------



## Calvine

Phoenix Rising said:


> People need to know that this was not just an accident it was a result of cutbacks and decisions the Tories made to save money. This is a govt that makes an habit of this and it's costing lives! How many more people need to lose theirs before people wake up and realise the connections!


Maybe; but as far as I'm aware, the block is about ?40 years old, and it rather looks as if several governments may have been negligent. Not that that's a consolation to people caught up in this dreadful tragedy, or have loved ones who were..


----------



## Pawscrossed

It isn't any consolation but it did have fire regulations before the refurb so this is a recent thing as I understand it from my godson. The promise was bigger and better but it was neglectful and whilst any place that old needs tlc, it smacks of constant failure to listen since the work was completed using cost saving developers and contractors. My godson mentioned it often. Westminster applauds emergency services and then removes staff from these services and from councils who where and are unable to cope.

My godson had found his girlfriend very badly injured and her prognosis isn't good. If she pulls through her injuries are life changing.

This is devastating and it makes me so angry too because it was preventable and those in charge knew. Health and safety can drive us mad, EU rules cause protest but this is a sorrowful and without question horrific example of why it matters. I'm sorry to bring politics in but yes it really matters and we have to talk about it (honestly because fake news has no place here) to raise awareness and make those accountable learn from it so it never ever happens again.


----------



## Honeys mum

Calvine said:


> The papers are doing the same, photographs with a ring round a window where some poor soul is waving to attract attention to the fact that they are there.


One of the worst things I think, was them showing the public holding up their mobile phone taking videos of the buiding engulfed in flames. How sick is that.

It was heartwarning to see this morning all the people taking in bags of clothes etc. for those poor people who now have nothing.
On the notice board, some one had written, no words, just prayers.xx


----------



## Boxerluver30

Awful what has happened . My heart goes out to everyone affected x. @Pawscrossed I hope your godson manages to get in touch with his g/f soon and sorry to hear he was involved. Also awful to hear it could have been prevented


----------



## Honeys mum

Pawscrossed said:


> My godson had found his girlfriend very badly injured and her prognosis isn't good. If she pulls through her injuries are life changing.


So sorry to read that Pawscrossed, praying she pulls through and that her injuries aren't as bad as they think.x


----------



## Boxerluver30

@Pawscrossed just seen your last post, so sorry to hear that about your godsons g/f, fingers crossed she pulls through and shes ok x


----------



## steveshanks

I saw on the news last night about people taking sandwiches and clothes to help, its time like this when you realise humanity isn't lost. I bet you there are more than a few contractors/ builders /councilors or whatever sitting shaking right now.


----------



## MiffyMoo

steveshanks said:


> I saw on the news last night about people taking sandwiches and clothes to help, its time like this when you realise humanity isn't lost. I bet you there are more than a few contractors/ builders /councilors or whatever sitting shaking right now.


And then you read the article about the guy arrested for opening the body bags and posting the photos to Facebook . Once again you lose faith in humanity.


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> the guy arrested for opening the body bags and posting the photos to Facebook


Is that really true? Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, it will.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Calvine said:


> Is that really true? Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, it will.


This insane desire to be the first to break news etc. on social media seems to have broken down any barriers of judgement and taste

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/man-a...-taking-pictures-of-grenfell-victims-6709772/


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> This insane desire to be the first to break news etc. on social media


And to provide something even more gruesome for the ghoulish to savour. Even the papers are becoming guilty of this, I think. I noticed after the London Bridge terror attack they all published photos of the dead terrorists without pixelating their faces...not close-ups, but normally the face is not visible at all. I hate to think what you can get away with on FB.


----------



## havoc

MiffyMoo said:


> This insane desire to be the first to break news etc. on social media seems to have broken down any barriers of judgement and taste


This is exactly what's happened and it's sickening. So much is seen as normal now, the level at which too much information is 'shared' has led to people like this guy thinking what he did is OK.

It isn't.


----------



## kimthecat

Phoenix Rising said:


> People need to know that this was not just an accident it was a result of cutbacks and decisions the Tories made to save money. This is a govt that makes an habit of this and it's costing lives! How many more people need to lose theirs before people wake up and realise the connections!


Can you prove or show a direct link between the government cut backs and the fire in a building that had 9 or 10 million spent on it ?


----------



## kimthecat

steveshanks said:


> I saw on the news last night about people taking sandwiches and clothes to help, its time like this when you realise humanity isn't lost. I bet you there are more than a few contractors/ builders /councilors or whatever sitting shaking right now.


Heartwarming the way people always come forward to help in a time of crisis.

It makes you wonder if something dodgy was going on with contractors and that..


----------



## SpringDance

kimthecat said:


> Can you prove or show a direct link between the government cut backs and the fire in a building that had 9 or 10 million spent on it ?


From what I've read (and I obviously don't knew what are facts and not for sure, but going on what's being reported), the 9 or 10 million went on cosmetic areas (because the block looked ugly to the more expensive flats) and the money didn't go to improve safety or to correct the problems (electrical) that had been plaguing them.


----------



## kimthecat

Pawscrossed said:


> I
> This is devastating and it makes me so angry too because it was preventable and those in charge knew. Health and safety can drive us mad, EU rules cause protest but this is a sorrowful and without question horrific example of why it matters. I'm sorry to bring politics in but yes it really matters and we have to talk about it (honestly because fake news has no place here) to raise awareness and make those accountable learn from it so it never ever happens again.


Im so sorry about your Godsons girlfriend. 

About the Eu rules , I guess the original building wouldn't have been built under the same rules as today but the refurbishment shouldn't have been ? I wondering what went on there , if corners were cut , the wrong materials used .


----------



## kimthecat

SpringDance said:


> From what I've read (and I obviously don't knew what are facts and not for sure, but going on what's being reported), the 9 or 10 million went on cosmetic areas (because the block looked ugly to the more expensive flats) and the money didn't go to improve safety or to correct the problems (electrical) that had been plaguing them.


 Very bad judgement on who ever makes these decisions.


----------



## havoc

kimthecat said:


> I wondering what went on there , if corners were cut , the wrong materials used


My first thought too but even more frightening to me is that corners don't seem to need to be cut under current regulations for a tragedy like this to be possible, especially for retro fit.


----------



## catz4m8z

Just a horrible tragic thing to have happened. I cant even begin to imagine how awful it must have been for all those poor people.
I just hope this leads to a complete overhaul of the fire regulations for residential buildings. Clearly new laws need to be implemented to prevent this kind of thing happening again.


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> My first thought too but even more frightening to me is that corners don't seem to need to be cut under current regulations for a tragedy like this to be possible, especially for retro fit.


 I think blame can be cast for not changing the law and now there is no excuse for not changing them. The delays to the safety review after lakanal house , shocking , so tories to blame for that .


----------



## cheekyscrip

Pawscrossed said:


> It isn't any consolation but it did have fire regulations before the refurb so this is a recent thing as I understand it from my godson. The promise was bigger and better but it was neglectful and whilst any place that old needs tlc, it smacks of constant failure to listen since the work was completed using cost saving developers and contractors. My godson mentioned it often. Westminster applauds emergency services and then removes staff from these services and from councils who where and are unable to cope.
> 
> My godson had found his girlfriend very badly injured and her prognosis isn't good. If she pulls through her injuries are life changing.
> 
> This is devastating and it makes me so angry too because it was preventable and those in charge knew. Health and safety can drive us mad, EU rules cause protest but this is a sorrowful and without question horrific example of why it matters. I'm sorry to bring politics in but yes it really matters and we have to talk about it (honestly because fake news has no place here) to raise awareness and make those accountable learn from it so it never ever happens again.


So sorry for the poor girl. Best wishes she may recover well and all who are affected.

I am sorry, if it becomes political, but angers me that TM did not want to speak to residents, to hear their anger and despair.
She limited her visit to officials and firemen.

Sadiq Khan answered to angry, frustrated crowd with sadness and dignity.
Did not hide, had the courage to face them and hear them.
Very hard in his position.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> So sorry for the poor girl. Best wishes she may recover well and all who are affected.
> *I am sorry, if it becomes political, but angers me that TM did not want to speak to residents, to hear their anger and despair.
> She limited her visit to officials and firemen.*
> Sadiq Khan answered to angry, frustrated crowd with sadness and dignity.
> Did not hide, had the courage to face them and hear them.
> Very hard in his position.


At least Jeremy Corbyn went to see the people involved and you could see he was visibly moved. Her statement back at No.10 was cold and heartless.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> At least Jeremy Corbyn went to see the people involved and you could see he was visibly moved. Her statement back at No.10 was cold and heartless.


It is easier for JC, but Sadiq Khan faces part of responsibility, that is why I mentioned him speaking for Sky News. I appreciate the independent inquiry promised, so uncomfortable thruths will not get swept under the carpet to protect people like Boswell, who though not elected MP anymore still got called to be in cabinet.

I want to hear his answers!!!
This is not the first fire!!!


----------



## havoc

cheekyscrip said:


> I am sorry, if it becomes political, but angers me that TM did not want to speak to residents, to hear their anger and despair.
> She limited her visit to officials and firemen.


She's really no good at this sort of thing and comes across very badly. It's as if she can't cope with having to interact with ordinary mortals. I hope she cares deeply and is just lousy at showing it.


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> She's really no good at this sort of thing and comes across very badly. It's as if she can't cope with having to interact with ordinary mortals. I hope she cares deeply and is just lousy at showing it.


I really do wonder if she has some sort of social anxiety.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws said:


> At least Jeremy Corbyn went to see the people involved and you could see he was visibly moved. Her statement back at No.10 was cold and heartless.


She visited the site and met the firemen etc but not anyone from the public which I though was a bit odd. 
The Labour Mayor Sadiq Khan visited and was heckled.


----------



## Happy Paws2

havoc said:


> She's really no good at this sort of thing and comes across very badly. It's as if she can't cope with having to interact with ordinary mortals. I hope she cares deeply and is just lousy at showing it.


Well she better learn fast or she'll be no good as PM.


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> She's really no good at this sort of thing and comes across very badly. It's as if she can't cope with having to interact with ordinary mortals. I hope she cares deeply and is just lousy at showing it.


I know that I get very uncomfortable in terrible situations and I shut down. But I haven't manoeuvred myself into the most public job in the UK


----------



## cheekyscrip

MiffyMoo said:


> I really do wonder if she has some sort of social anxiety.


 Do not think so. Maybe just not very empathetic person. Emotionally detached. 
There are many individuals on psychopathic spectrum that are not criminal at all, very high rising, hard working, ambitious and task oriented, but not at all people oriented.
This how I see her - this how she comes across.


----------



## havoc

MiffyMoo said:


> I know that I get very uncomfortable in terrible situations and I shut down. But I haven't manoeuvred myself into the most public job in the UK


That's how I feel too but I hate her so much I'm bending over backwards to try and be fair  Leading the country can't mean cutting yourself off from it.


----------



## MiffyMoo

cheekyscrip said:


> Do not think so. Maybe just not very empathetic person. Emotionally detached.
> There are many individuals on psychopathic spectrum that are not criminal at all, very high rising, hard working, ambitious and task oriented, but not at all people oriented.
> This how I see her - this how she comes across.


Oh hang on, I'm vaguely remembering a report I saw ages ago about how x% (pretty high) of CEOs etc are actually psychopaths (or is it sociopaths? Still don't know the difference) and the reason they're able to rise through the ranks is because they're incapable of empathy, but can learn to act empathetic.

Must see if I can find it


----------



## havoc

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh hang on, I'm vaguely remembering a report I saw ages ago about how x% (pretty high) of CEOs etc are actually psychopaths (or is it sociopaths?


It's psychopaths and it is a scale of psychopathic traits. We all sit on it somewhere with very few scoring either extreme. I'm not so sure she'd score highly.


----------



## kimthecat

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh hang on, I'm vaguely remembering a report I saw ages ago about how x% (pretty high) of CEOs etc are actually psychopaths (or is it sociopaths? Still don't know the difference) and the reason they're able to rise through the ranks is because they're incapable of empathy, but can learn to act empathetic.
> 
> Must see if I can find it


Like Dexter 

I'd love to read more about that if anyone has links to it .
A link about the difference between a sociopath and psychopath

http://www.medicaldaily.com/whats-d...psychopath-not-much-one-might-kill-you-270694


----------



## MiffyMoo

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh hang on, I'm vaguely remembering a report I saw ages ago about how x% (pretty high) of CEOs etc are actually psychopaths (or is it sociopaths? Still don't know the difference) and the reason they're able to rise through the ranks is because they're incapable of empathy, but can learn to act empathetic.
> 
> Must see if I can find it


Maybe this is it

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.te...s-are-psychopaths-australian-study-finds/amp/

Looking at the list of traits, I don't think she displays most of them, but psychopathy can't be an absolute, there must be some sort of scale. Saying that, I'm about as much a psychologist as I am a building engineer


----------



## cheekyscrip

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh hang on, I'm vaguely remembering a report I saw ages ago about how x% (pretty high) of CEOs etc are actually psychopaths (or is it sociopaths? Still don't know the difference) and the reason they're able to rise through the ranks is because they're incapable of empathy, but can learn to act empathetic.
> 
> Must see if I can find it


Psychopath or sociopath? This is a discussion about the origin, but except for extreme isolation from caring adults - like bad orphanage, which is not the case - it is very much your character, often seen very early on...

Leopard cannot change their spots...

What worries me is that she might try to put the blame as far from the government as possible. 
French producers of cladding materials? Would not surprise me at all.
Glad that independent inquiry is called by SadiqKhan.

But that shows little confidence in government on his side in government investigation!!!


----------



## MiffyMoo

cheekyscrip said:


> Psychopath or sociopath? This is a discussion about the origin, but except for extreme isolation from caring adults - like bad orphanage, which is not the case - it is very much your character, often seen very early on...
> 
> Leopard cannot change their spots...
> 
> What worries me is that she might try to put the blame as far from the government as possible.
> French producers of cladding materials? Would not surprise me at all.
> Glad that independent inquiry is called by SadiqKhan.
> 
> But that shows little confidence in government on his side in government investigation!!!


Everyone is going to be manoeuvring so hard to deflect blame here, which will make it extremely difficult to get to the cause. I guess that there were probably failings across many different agencies and companies


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> It's psychopaths and it is a scale of psychopathic traits. We all sit on it somewhere with very few scoring either extreme. I'm not so sure she'd score highly.


Tell me how well you manipulate your fellow mates...tell you how you might score ...
Think you might be right ..she could be played by Juncker, Murdoch, backbenchers Tories....


----------



## chissy 15

I think it was absolutely disgusting that she didn't talk to the people in the community  hope they don't drag an investigation on for years, these poor people need answers quickly!


----------



## Honeys mum

cheekyscrip said:


> I am sorry, if it becomes political, but angers me that TM did not want to speak to residents, to hear their anger and despair.
> She limited her visit to officials and firemen.


Rachel Swindon tweeted: "Today, Theresa May visited #GrenfellTower and she refused to meet any residents. This cowardly embarrassment needs to go, and go now."

Political commentator Owen Jones said on Twitter: "Appalling that Theresa May went to Grenfell Tower and didn't meet the residents. It's just appalling."










I saw this on the BBC News tonight, you could see he was close to to tears.
I'm no J.C. fan not labour or tory, but the difference between the two is truly amazing. No need for words.

I


----------



## Elles

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-cranston/which-of-our-leaders-are-_b_752833.html

Sadly Jeremy Corbyn is more likely to be displaying psychopathic traits than Theresa May.

I have no idea why she didn't visit with survivors, maybe she was the last person they wanted to see and it was felt best not to upset them even further.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-cranston/which-of-our-leaders-are-_b_752833.html
> 
> Sadly Jeremy Corbyn is more likely to be displaying psychopathic traits than Theresa May.
> 
> I have no idea why she didn't visit with survivors, maybe she was the last person they wanted to see and it was felt best not to upset them even further.


Cannot believe they did not want to talk to her...clearly crowd gathered to talk to Sadiq Khan.
Obviously people have lots of questions!
Immediate ones like when they get new place to live?
Will their children be able to go to the same school?
Will they get any money right now to buy food etc.?

When hospitals will let them identify the unconscious patients?
Parents of two missing girls found them by chance, when nurse took pity and let them to have a peek at injured children...


----------



## kimthecat

CELEBRITIES including Lily Allen and Jamie Oliver have reached out after the Grenfell Tower fire, even offering "bed and tea" to those who need it.

Aren't their homes already filled with refugees ?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/en...lSF&utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_medium=Twitter


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> CELEBRITIES including Lily Allen and Jamie Oliver have reached out after the Grenfell Tower fire, even offering "bed and tea" to those who need it.
> 
> Aren't their homes already filled with refugees ?
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/en...lSF&utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_medium=Twitter


:Hilarious


----------



## Honeys mum

Elles said:


> I have no idea why she didn't visit with survivors, maybe she was the last person they wanted to see and it was felt best not to upset them even further.


not

When asked the question, this was her answer. Yet again avoiding answering the question, as she always does.

Asked why she didn't meet residents, Mrs May dodged the question, saying:

"I visited the scene of this terrible fire this morning. I wanted a briefing from the emergency services. They've been working tirelessly in horrific conditions and I've been overwhelmed by their professionalism and bravery. I heard stories of firefighters running into the building."


----------



## Elles

Let's hope she gives them some answers soon then.


----------



## Elles

Perhaps the braver of us can update on what May is doing? I just had a quick look on BBC website, but read too fast and I'm sorry, but I can't bear it. Just the first couple of sentences were one of the worst and most tragic stories I've ever read. This is our Titanic and worse.  I don't know how the fire officers will cope with it.


----------



## Jesthar

Just watching some lackey on Newsnight more or less trying to shift the blame for the lack of fire safety in the block onto the residents, making remarks like residents didn't want extra fire protection like a sprinkler system retrofitted because it would have delayed the refurbishment, and besides they were more interested in new boilers and heating anyway...


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Just watching some lackey on Newsnight more or less trying to shift the blame for the lack of fire safety in the block onto the residents, making remarks like residents didn't want extra fire protection like a sprinkler system retrofitted because it would have delayed the refurbishment, and besides they were more interested in new boilers and heating anyway...


For crying out loud


----------



## lorilu

Would anyone mind posting links to current stories? I know it's upsetting, but I don't know how to find the stories you all are reading and here in the USA the big news is all over some stupid random shooting in Florida where a politician got hit, but not killed. the only person who died was the shooter, but this is STILL the top news story and the London fire isn't even on the radar any more

I mean, I don't want to torture myself but ..I think this is way more important and I care about it as much as you all do.


----------



## Elles

What!? Firstly I doubt very much that's true (that the residents didn't want sprinklers) and secondly we're forced to wear seat belts in cars, we should be forced to 'suffer' fire safety upgrades. Especially when the building we live in has been turned into one enormous incendiary device. What they should be doing now, is evacuating every other 'improved' tower block and making it safe.

If people do link, can they link rather than copy paste and not include graphics please, or start a new thread with 'warning graphic' in the title?


----------



## Jesthar

Not sure if it will work for you, @lorilu , but this is the BBC Live stream, it's being updated with a lot of the recent commentary and newspaper front pages. There are links to videos and photos of the burned out building

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-40239008


----------



## Jesthar

Hmm, just been pointed out on Newsnight that the PM has ordered a Public Inquiry, not an Inquest. The difference, apparently (if I understood the legal speak correctly), is that an inquiry is very much Govenrment led and allows no input or questioning from those affected, whereas an Inquest is led by a coroner and allows both.

Interesting...


----------



## kimthecat

I didnt know this . i just assumed they had to do an inquest but a public Inquiry is optional .

There have been calls for an Inquiry though . perhaps that was one reason why they are doing one .


----------



## Elles

Public Inquiry looks to be the obvious thing here. It will cost millions and take years probably.

In the meantime can they please do something with other buildings that may be affected in the same way and now.

These people were asking for inspections and campaigning, are there other buildings in the same situation? Can the public get behind their residents? I know I'm not involved in any way and don't live in a tower, but I'm really worried that this could happen again while the investigations are ongoing. I can't be the only one. Does anyone know? Is anything being reported? This is the second one, how many more are there?


----------



## Creativecat

Another public enquiry
Oh
My lord . That means its gonna drag on for years .,like the hillsboroigh inquiry. The chilcot inquiry . Plus others . Ultimately alot of slapped wrists are gonna be in order. With a few implications . There must be a quicker solution.,alot of passing the buck is going to happen that's for sure . I read even on a prosecuting level it will be hard to pin on people .i noticed gavin barwell is keeping well below the radar . Maybe rewriting his notes on what his excuses are gonna be shame on them all . I did hear on the radio from certain corners that a gas supply was supplied to each flat in case they wanted gas appliances but non of the residence was informed this was going to happen . Maybe this could be fake news not sure to be fair. Whathorrifying thing I saw was a lady at the scene said when the fire engines came it took them well over 2hrs to enter the block . And she has the times on her fone to prove it but non of the news agency's were wanting to know . I think there's alot if misinformation
Being spread which is shocking . Such a sad thing to happen but so easily could of been avoided in this day and age


----------



## Honeys mum

Creativecat said:


> i noticed gavin barwell is keeping well below the radar . Maybe rewriting his notes on what his excuses are gonna be shame on them all


Gavin Barwell: Theresa May's new chief of staff faces questions over delayed tower block fire safety review | The Independent

Yes, and he is the oneT.May appointed him her new chief of staff, replacing the ones who resigned after the election results.


----------



## noushka05

I had the same feelings of horror & helplessness watching this as I did when I saw the twin towers ablaze. I felt sick to my stomach & watching that poor old man desperately waving a rag through his window for help was horrible. I heard they got him out & hes in intensive care, god I hope he makes it. This must not be swept under the carpet, people have to be brought to justice for this, the inquiry must be independent - who in their right minds trusts this government ??


----------



## noushka05

Honeys mum said:


> Gavin Barwell: Theresa May's new chief of staff faces questions over delayed tower block fire safety review | The Independent
> 
> Yes, and he is the oneT.May appointed him her new chief of staff, replacing the ones who resigned after the election results.


And lets not forget the tories who voted down labours bill to make properties 'fit for human habitation http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/full-list-...aking-properties-fit-human-habitation-1537725


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-cranston/which-of-our-leaders-are-_b_752833.html
> 
> Sadly Jeremy Corbyn is more likely to be displaying psychopathic traits than Theresa May.
> 
> I have no idea why she didn't visit with survivors, maybe she was the last person they wanted to see and it was felt best not to upset them even further.


I've seen a lot of smears against Corbyn but this has to be the most ludicrous yet. What you're seeing with Corbyn is someone who possesses _genuine_ compassion & empathy. He has spent his life fighting injustice & standing up for the poor & ordinary people. A psychopath is someone who would put profit before all else. Support cutting regulations & red tape which protects people & the living planet. Subsidise & promote the climate destroying fossil fuel industry. Someone who supports hunting down a terrified animal for fun. These are traits of a psychopath, Corbyn doesn't posses any of them. Someone who flippant says they would push the nuclear button & incinerate millions of innocent people is a psychopath.


----------



## Honeys mum

For you noush, saw this on my friends FB page.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> I had the same feelings of horror & helplessness watching this as I did when I saw the twin towers ablaze. I felt sick to my stomach & watching that poor old man desperately waving a rag through his window for help was horrible. I heard they got him out & hes in intensive care, god I hope he makes it. This must not be swept under the carpet, people have to be brought to justice for this, the inquiry must be independent - who in their right minds trusts this government ??


If it Was the one on TV noushka it was 11 hours after the fire started that the brave firemen were able to save him. 11 hours you cannot even begin to imagine what those people must have been thinking during that time


----------



## rona

The police are holding a criminal investigation. Lets hope that those back handers that those councillors often take are exposed and that investigation goes much wider.

Some of the decisions my own council take are so obviously driven by money, and I honestly can't see, due to the horrendous decisions, how that money is just going into council coffers, it must be going into pockets too


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> it was felt best not to upset them even further.


You may be right...I imagine she would be advised whom she should see tho' it does come over badly. Khan had a rough time, told 'we want answers, not handshakes' or something along those lines. I thought he looked a bit detached too.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sky News are saying this morning that the cladding used on Grenfell Tower was banned in the US for safety reasons. The reporters went to a safety lab in the UK with the same cladding and insulation and it caught light within seconds of heat hitting it.

I hope they manage to bring corporate manslaughter charges against the company that installed this cladding.


----------



## Calvine

It was a day when the best and worst of human nature were on display. It was somehow especially depressing to find two British Transport Police officers deployed at Latimer Road Tube station purely in order to stop people taking disaster selfies from a section of platform with a prime view of the tower. 'Just show some respect and move along!'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4609156/How-kids-died-Mr-Khan.html#ixzz4k8yVjpgx
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

No kidding?


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> And lets not forget the tories who voted down labours bill to make properties 'fit for human habitation http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/full-list-...aking-properties-fit-human-habitation-1537725


Which, whilst important, is irrelevant in this case, as it only covered private landlords


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> If it Was the one on TV noushka it was 11 hours after the fire started that the brave firemen were able to save him. 11 hours you cannot even begin to imagine what those people must have been thinking during that time


OMG poor man. The firefighters were amazing, they are so brave. They deserve our full support.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat said:


> Sky News are saying this morning that the cladding used on Grenfell Tower was banned in the US for safety reasons. The reporters went to a safety lab in the UK with the same cladding and insulation and it caught light within seconds of heat hitting it.
> 
> I hope they manage to bring corporate manslaughter charges against the company that installed this cladding.


I read that somewhere too. I also read it would only have cost an extra few thousand to use the safe version of the cladding?


----------



## MiffyMoo

Calvine said:


> You may be right...I imagine she would be advised whom she should see tho' it does come over badly. Khan had a rough time, told 'we want answers, not handshakes' or something along those lines. I thought he looks a bit detached too.


Not a fan of Khan, but if you're in front of people yelling at you, it has to be a bit frightening. He probably didn't want turn tail and run, he just had to suck it up


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Which, whilst important, is irrelevant in this case, as it only covered private landlords


I disagree its irrelevant. It shows the mindset of these people.


----------



## havoc

stockwellcat said:


> I hope they manage to bring corporate manslaughter charges against the company that installed this cladding


Doubt it's going to be that simple. I've seen somewhere that the manufacturers make three versions, two fire resistant and one not. If the installers used what was specified they're not to blame, it will fall back on whoever wrote the specifications. There will be a whole chain of individuals and organisations all looking to show it wasn't their fault.


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> it only covered private landlords


...several of whom are no doubt MP's.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> I disagree its irrelevant. It shows the mindset of these people.


It would have made no difference to a council property

Edit: I worded that badly; the ruling would have had no bearing on a council property


----------



## MiffyMoo

Calvine said:


> ...several of whom are no doubt MP's.


Indeed, but we're currently discussing Grenfell, which is a council property


----------



## JANICE199

*I was watching an interview earlier and a solicitor was saying, There needs to be an inquest and NOT an inquiry into the fire. The reason was, if there is an inquiry the people will not get a say in anything, but they will if there is an inquest. *
*No wonder TM was so quick to say we need an inquiry. *


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> Indeed, but we're currently discussing Grenfell, which is a council property


You have to wonder what state the other similar properties are in across London (and other cities of course).


----------



## cheekyscrip

I saw timeline with clips attached...you could see flames rising up the cladding in minutes, in half an hour spreading to the other side...

Experts warned about this cladding. For years.

The type that might have been used is banned in USA for any higher buildings.

It looks obvious that building was burning with no resistance.
Woman who survived by flooding the bathroom was told to stay put, 90 minutes later fireman told them to flee, then she could not get out.

I do not question the bravery of firemen, but the advice to stay in while it looked like the fire is spreading very fast and is unstoppable.


Experts knew the building like this was not safe, but who listens to experts?


----------



## MiffyMoo

Calvine said:


> You have to wonder what state the other similar properties are in across London (and other cities of course).


Hopefully this will boot all councils up the bum to instigate full safety checks now


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> It would have made no difference to a council property
> 
> Edit: I worded that badly; the ruling would have had no bearing on a council property


You're missing the point. Its relevant to highlight the mentality of these people. They believe in deregulation to maximise profit.

This too is relevant. They are risking childrens lives.

*Angela Rayner MP*‏Verified [email protected]*AngelaRayner* Jun 14

Angela Rayner MP Retweeted Angela Rayner MP

_I was warning the Tories last August about removing the requirement to fit sprinklers in schools,
they should be fitted in housing too!_

*Angela Rayner MP*‏Verified [email protected]*AngelaRayner* 31 Aug 2016

_A disgrace, Tory Ministers are to remove requirement to have water_ _sprinklers fitted 
to new schools,sneaking announcement out on DfE website_


----------



## noushka05

I'm sick of weasel words from a government that praises firefighters, NHS staff & police after a tragedy yet threats them with with such contempt. 
_
Firefighters won't take solace from politicians who've shown us utter contempt for seven years. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ervice-putting-lives-at-risk?CMP=share_btn_tw

_


----------



## noushka05

Its all about the money. How sick is this.

The Times says the "fire resistant" panels cost £24. The flammable £22. Making the building non-flammable would have cost £5K more.


----------



## Creativecat

Is there concrete evidence that it was a fridge exploding as I haven't heared anything official surely this must be one of the priority s as well as recovering all the poor poeple who lost there lives . To be fair iv never heared of a fridge exploding .
I know cookers and washing machines have been known to burst into flames. And what about the guy who's flat this happened surely there must be some responsibility levelled at him in all respect . Did he contact the emergency services . Or did he just leave the flat to burn i guess all these questions will be addressed.


----------



## JANICE199

Creativecat said:


> Is there concrete evidence that it was a fridge exploding as I haven't heared anything official surely this must be one of the priority s as well as recovering all the poor poeple who lost there lives . To be fair iv never heared of a fridge exploding .
> I know cookers and washing machines have been known to burst into flames. And what about the guy who's flat this happened surely there must be some responsibility levelled at him in all respect . Did he contact the emergency services . Or did he just leave the flat to burn i guess all these questions will be addressed.


*As far as i know there has not been anything official said about the cause of the fire.*


----------



## Vanessa131

Fridges are a fairly common cause of electrical fires. There would be no liability on the fridge owner unless they purposely and willfully caused the fire. 

There will be no concrete evidence until the fire has been fully investigated by professionals.


----------



## havoc

Creativecat said:


> And what about the guy who's flat this happened surely there must be some responsibility levelled at him in all respect


That would be the guy who was assured he lived in a fireproof box, the guy who, like all the other tenants, was told to follow a flawed procedure in a flawed building. Yeah, let's blame him.


----------



## havoc

Vanessa131 said:


> There would be no liability on the fridge owner


The manufacturer however will have an interest once the make is known. Even if it wasn't that fridge they'll be instructing their own experts just to clear their name as will everyone else who had *any *involvement in that block.


----------



## Creativecat

Vanessa131 said:


> Fridges are a fairly common cause of electrical fires. There would be no liability on the fridge owner unless they purposely and willfully caused the fire.
> 
> There will be no concrete evidence until the fire has been fully investigated by professionals.


I totally agree there's no liability
But there is a responsibility to try and distinguish any flames caused
I pray the the guy did all he could 
But if it was catastrophic i guess that's a totally different scenario


----------



## Creativecat

havoc said:


> That would be the guy who was assured he lived in a fireproof box, the guy who, like all the other tenants, was told to follow a flawed procedure in a flawed building. Yeah, let's blame him.


I'm not blaming him atall 
Let's get that clear please


----------



## raebhoop

I've read several times that many of the deceased may never be identified...Why? 

In the 2004 Tsunami many thousands of remains were identified in a huge operation using DNA and other methods. Surely with the clues from Residents records and modern technology, there should only be a very small proportion of those that cannot be named.


----------



## havoc

noushka05 said:


> The Times says the "fire resistant" panels cost £24. The flammable £22. Making the building non-flammable would have cost £5K more.


I honestly doubt anyone sat and made a cynical decision to save £5k on a project of this size Noush. More likely it was never even raised because regulations don't require it, those commissioning the project don't know there's a better option and those advising them (if they had advice) won't have pushed for it.


----------



## Dr Pepper

Creativecat said:


> Is there concrete evidence that it was a fridge exploding as I haven't heared anything official surely this must be one of the priority s as well as recovering all the poor poeple who lost there lives . To be fair iv never heared of a fridge exploding .
> I know cookers and washing machines have been known to burst into flames. And what about the guy who's flat this happened surely there must be some responsibility levelled at him in all respect


We had three month old fridge go up in flames and burn our house out, luckily the house was salvageable but we lost absolutely everything. Luckily the cats made their own exit and the neighbours got the dog out. We had only popped out for five minutes when the neighbours rang to say the house was on fire (thought they were joking at first!), We got back within two minutes to be welcomed by smoke billowing out of all the windows and massive flames out of the kitchen. A car was right next to the house and knowing exactly where the keys thought I'd move it to safety. Entered the house and until you've seen how totally black, think and pungent that smoke is you've no idea. I didn't get more than a foot in before making a hasty retreat. I have no doubt that the smoke would have been the killer rather than the flames. Little consolation but a better way to go.


----------



## Nonnie

raebhoop said:


> I've read several times that many of the deceased may never be identified...Why?
> 
> In the 2004 Tsunami many thousands of remains were identified in a huge operation using DNA and other methods. Surely with the clues from Residents records and modern technology, there should only be a very small proportion of those that cannot be named.


Fire, especially intense fire reaching incredibly high temperatures, can destroy nearly all DNA.

The Tsumani victims had plenty of extractable DNA, despite not being physically recognisable.


----------



## havoc

raebhoop said:


> In the 2004 Tsunami many thousands of remains were identified in a huge operation using DNA and other methods. Surely with the clues from Residents records and modern technology, there should only be a very small proportion of those that cannot be named.


You have to have something for DNA comparison. There may have been people in that block who weren't tenants and they may not have relatives missing them. There's also the issue of recovering DNA from a burned body - very different from a flood victim.


----------



## Vanessa131

Creativecat said:


> I totally agree there's no liability
> But there is a responsibility to try and distinguish any flames caused
> I pray the the guy did all he could
> But if it was catastrophic i guess that's a totally different scenario


There is zero responsibility for any member of the public to fight a fire.


----------



## Vanessa131

raebhoop said:


> I've read several times that many of the deceased may never be identified...Why?
> 
> In the 2004 Tsunami many thousands of remains were identified in a huge operation using DNA and other methods. Surely with the clues from Residents records and modern technology, there should only be a very small proportion of those that cannot be named.


Heat destroys DNA at fairly low temperatures, high temperatures also damage teeth so mean dental records are not able to be used.


----------



## Vanessa131

Family of the first named victim are on victoria derbyshire


----------



## Creativecat

Vanessa131 said:


> There is zero responsibility for any member of the public to fight a fire.


Your are right but it's just in aome people's human nature to try and diffuse a situation that's all I'm saying ;0)


----------



## noushka05

havoc said:


> I honestly doubt anyone sat and made a cynical decision to save £5k on a project of this size Noush. More likely it was never even raised because regulations don't require it, those commissioning the project don't know there's a better option and those advising them (if they had advice) won't have pushed for it.


Maximising profit is priority in the mind-set of a lot of people - & its the same mindset who lobby government to weaken regulations. But whatever the truth, lets hope there is a thorough investigation to get to the bottom of this awful tragedy.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Elles

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/2277


----------



## MilleD

Creativecat said:


> Is there concrete evidence that it was a fridge exploding as I haven't heared anything official surely this must be one of the priority s as well as recovering all the poor poeple who lost there lives . To be fair iv never heared of a fridge exploding .
> I know cookers and washing machines have been known to burst into flames. And what about the guy who's flat this happened surely there must be some responsibility levelled at him in all respect . Did he contact the emergency services . Or did he just leave the flat to burn i guess all these questions will be addressed.


Not saying this is what happened, but fridges can be incredibly dangerous.


----------



## steveshanks

MilleD said:


> Not saying this is what happened, but fridges can be incredibly dangerous.


 Very true, but if you create a block of flats with lets say 200 residences you then increase the chances of an electric fire by 200, i'd say tumble driers and dishwashers are the more dangerous (no figures, just from experience) and given the problems of drying clothes in a block of flats then the chances are a fair number will have them. Then take into account how many have had recalls AND how bad they are at getting the recall info out.....I've made my head hurt here. What i am trying to say is this was a disaster waiting to happen, In a past career i have done extensive fire training and got caught up in the almost fireman strike of 83 and every time i look at a building like this it puts me in a stressed state, in my opinion they just shouldn't exist unless they can think of a safe way of getting someone out of the top floor when a lower floor in unusable, maybe bridges between blocks (may be a stupid idea) and to build a building that is higher than a fireman can reach is just utterly ridiculous.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> You have to wonder what state the other similar properties are in across London (and other cities of course).


My neighbour was a caretaker at three blocks of council flats ( 13 stories ) in outer west london , there are no sprinklers and floors above level 6 rely on a pump for water which is on the ground floor ,in the event of a fire if the pump cuts out there is no water for those above that level .

They have emergency light s but before she retired last year they hadn't been working ! The year before , she stood up at a council meeting and told the Council Leader , I'm a caretaker , the emergency lights havent worked for a year . I ve told my Boss, and he's told his boss , I've told every body and nothing has been done, I'm not prepared to take responsibility in the event of a fire for the lights not working . Their excuse was they were in the process of finding a new contractor .


----------



## MilleD

steveshanks said:


> Very true, but if you create a block of flats with lets say 200 residences you then increase the chances of an electric fire by 200, i'd say tumble driers and dishwashers are the more dangerous (no figures, just from experience) and given the problems of drying clothes in a block of flats then the chances are a fair number will have them.


The difference with things like fridges and tumble dryers though is that you turn a tumble dryer off. I know I for one would never leave the house and leave a tumble dryer or a dishwasher going, but the fridge is on ALL the time.


----------



## steveshanks

kimthecat said:


> I'm a caretaker , the emergency lights havent worked for a year


 Thats a tricky one, i'm a school caretaker and i don't tell the boss they need fixed i tell the boss i'm ringing the guy to fix them. The idiots at councils need to have this kind of system in place not the wait and see if it goes away policy we have now. Maybe some good will come of all this (may be not the right words) and after a few councilors and contractors get long prison sentences the rest will get there finger out and get things done.



MilleD said:


> I know I for one would never leave the house and leave a tumble dryer or a dishwasher going, but the fridge is on ALL the time


Us neither but a discussion at work (a grandad/ma lost there house to dishwasher fire) revealed that most people did but not any more.


----------



## westie~ma

My heart goes out to those familys who have lost loved ones and seeing people appealing for missing family is just so sad. 

Frightening to think they only had one central stairwell, at hubby's flat now and we've got our main stairs and fire escape stairwell at the back, we're a block only four high!

I used to work for a sprinkler company, retro fitting to old buildings isn't easy (can't remember doing a retro fit) but I'm sure things have moved on and it would be possible, its money, sprinkler systems aren't cheap.


----------



## Vanessa131

A couple are on now who escaped from the 21st floor, they escaped as their landlord phoned them to ensure they were okay.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Hopefully when they sort it out, someone will be had up for manslaughter. No one should just walk away with a slap on the wrist.


----------



## Elles

Vanessa131 said:


> A couple are on now who escaped from the 21st floor, they escaped as their landlord phoned them to ensure they were okay.


Their landlord? I thought it was council owned?


----------



## Vanessa131

Elles said:


> Their landlord? I thought it was council owned?


The freeholder is the council, but it doesn't mean all the flats are owned by the council.


----------



## Jesthar

Creativecat said:


> I totally agree there's no liability
> *But there is a responsibility to try and distinguish any flames caused*
> I pray the the guy did all he could
> But if it was catastrophic i guess that's a totally different scenario


Extinguish.  And even if it _was _his fridge that caused this, there is no responsibility on him to have tried to tackle the fire. Not that it will be any comfort to him, but he wasn't to know his supposedly self-contained fireproof box was neither contained nor fireproof, and even if he had there was still nothing he could have done other than leave and call the fire brigade.

I'm fire marshal trained at work, and that includes practical training with various types of extinguishers and fire blankets on different types of fires. Even so, our training strictly says tackle the blaze _only if safe to do so_, and only with appropriate equipment, whilst waiting for the professionals to arrive. What are the chances of someone having a Co2 or dry powder extinguisher suitable for tackling an electrical fire to hand in their home?

There's a very good reason the old TV fire safety adverts used to say "Get out. Get the Fire Brigade out. Stay out."


----------



## Vanessa131

The Queens is currently meeting some of the survivors at an aid centre. William is also with her.


----------



## noushka05

*Krishnan Guru-Murthy*‏Verified [email protected]*krishgm* 30m30 minutes ago

At 1030am the Govt has already refused to put a minister up on #*C4News* tonight #*GrenfellTower*

*Krishnan Guru-Murthy*‏Verified [email protected]*krishgm* 20m20 minutes ago

Replying to @*krishgm*
The new No10 Chief of Staff is Gavin Barwell - who was housing minister until losing his seat last week. He hasn't spoken either.

.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> *Krishnan Guru-Murthy*‏Verified [email protected]*krishgm* 30m30 minutes ago
> 
> At 1030am the Govt has already refused to put a minister up on #*C4News* tonight #*GrenfellTower*
> 
> *Krishnan Guru-Murthy*‏Verified [email protected]*krishgm* 20m20 minutes ago
> 
> Replying to @*krishgm*
> The new No10 Chief of Staff is Gavin Barwell - who was housing minister until losing his seat last week. He hasn't spoken either.
> 
> .


I think it's sensible not to put a minister on personally. What answers do they have yet? Nothing has been proven yet, it will just be fending of a load of knee jerk questions while the interviewer tries to score points.


----------



## MilleD

Jesthar said:


> Extinguish.  And even if it _was _his fridge that caused this, there is no responsibility on him to have tried to tackle the fire. Not that it will be any comfort to him, but he wasn't to know his supposedly self-contained fireproof box was neither contained nor fireproof, and even if he had there was still nothing he could have done other than leave and call the fire brigade.
> 
> I'm fire marshal trained at work, and that includes practical training with various types of extinguishers and fire blankets on different types of fires. Even so, our training strictly says tackle the blaze _only if safe to do so_, and only with appropriate equipment, whilst waiting for the professionals to arrive. What are the chances of someone having a Co2 or dry powder extinguisher suitable for tackling an electrical fire to hand in their home?
> 
> There's a very good reason the old TV fire safety adverts used to say "Get out. Get the Fire Brigade out. Stay out."


I'm a fire marshall too. Whilst they have trained us in the extinguishers etc. I'm pretty sure that if there was a real fire, my only task would be to make sure every one gets out.

And that includes the top bosses who think that the fire drills don't include them. I tell them different.


----------



## steveshanks

I believe every house and car should have a fire extinguisher and first aid kit by law, how to police the home ones is the tricky one though. But how the hell do we not have this in cars.


----------



## Vanessa131

steveshanks said:


> I believe every house and car should have a fire extinguisher and first aid kit by law, how to police the home ones is the tricky one though. But how the hell do we not have this in cars.


If a car is on fire getting close enough to retrieve a fire extinguisher could potentially be vey dangerous. You then also have to consider the size of extinguisher required to successfully control a fire until the fire services arrive.

Last year a vauxhall (the ones with the heating problem) caught fire on our road, around 8 metres from our home. The driver stopped, passengers ran, when the passengers and driver were just reaching the grass verge the car blew up. Before the blow up there was smoke, but no visible flames. Anyone attempting to get an extinguiser out would have been killed.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> I think it's sensible not to put a minister on personally. What answers do they have yet? Nothing has been proven yet, it will just be fending of a load of knee jerk questions while the interviewer tries to score points.


Seriously? I'm sorry but its the governments duty to be transparent & answer difficult questions at a time like this. They are a disgrace.


----------



## DoodlesRule

raebhoop said:


> I've read several times that many of the deceased may never be identified...Why?
> 
> In the 2004 Tsunami many thousands of remains were identified in a huge operation using DNA and other methods. Surely with the clues from Residents records and modern technology, there should only be a very small proportion of those that cannot be named.


There is no easy way to say it but simply there will be nothing left to test in many cases, the heat would be immense. My Grandad was in the civil defence during the war, heavy rescue in bombed out areas in Coventry and Birmingham, I won't go into details but often there was no trace of a body left.

The whole thing is an utter tragedy and those people have been sacrificed for money and forced to live in a death trap - a tower block wrapped in flammable plastic, only one means of escape and a litany of safety failings. I was also speechless when I read about a gas main rupturing - I just could not believe that tower blocks had any gas appliances. My colleague lives in a penthouse, I think they are only 5 stories high but they are all electric no gas for safety reasons


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Seriously? I'm sorry but its the governments duty to be transparent & answer difficult questions at a time like this. They are a disgrace.


Yes, seriously. There are no answers yet. Despite the fact that you want them to roll over and immediately confess it's all their fault, there are processes to go through.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Yes, seriously. There are no answers yet. Despite the fact that you want them to roll over and immediately confess it's all their fault, there are processes to go through.


I have never, ever known a government hide from a tragedy before. Those poor people deserve better, this government is beyond contempt.


----------



## noushka05

UK Parliament: This government must carry out an INQUEST into the Grenfell tragedy, NOT a public inquiry ..

https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliam...tm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=share_petition

.


----------



## Odin_cat

steveshanks said:


> I believe every house and car should have a fire extinguisher and first aid kit by law, how to police the home ones is the tricky one though. But how the hell do we not have this in cars.


It's ridiculous that it isn't a legal obligation to provide a fire extinguisher in a rented property, especially apartments.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Jesthar said:


> Extinguish.  And even if it _was _his fridge that caused this, there is no responsibility on him to have tried to tackle the fire. Not that it will be any comfort to him, but he wasn't to know his supposedly self-contained fireproof box was neither contained nor fireproof, and even if he had there was still nothing he could have done other than leave and call the fire brigade.
> 
> I'm fire marshal trained at work, and that includes practical training with various types of extinguishers and fire blankets on different types of fires. Even so, our training strictly says tackle the blaze _only if safe to do so_, and only with appropriate equipment, whilst waiting for the professionals to arrive. What are the chances of someone having a Co2 or dry powder extinguisher suitable for tackling an electrical fire to hand in their home?
> 
> There's a very good reason the old TV fire safety adverts used to say "Get out. Get the Fire Brigade out. Stay out."


I too was told during fire marshal training not to attempt to tackle fire, of course we were trained in the use of extinguishers but were told our priority was to ensure every got out, stayed out and let the professionals get on with the job.


----------



## MilleD

Odin_cat said:


> It's ridiculous that it isn't a legal obligation to provide a fire extinguisher in a rented property, especially apartments.


I think might actually cause more harm than good. With an expectation that the tenant has to fight a fire.


----------



## Jesthar

Managed to find a transcription of what Nick Paget-Brown, the Conservative leader of Kensington and Chelsea Council, said on Newsnight last night. This is the bit I was talking about:

"There was not a collective view that all the flats should be fitted with sprinklers because that would have delayed and made the refurbishment of the block more disruptive. We are now talking retrospectively after the most enormous tragedy, but many residents felt that we needed to get on with the installation of new hot water systems, new boilers and that trying to retrofit more would delay the building and that sprinklers aren't the answer.

I didn't consider retrofitting sprinklers because we were told that what you try to do when you are refurbishing is to contain a fire within a particular flat so that the fire service can evacuate that flat, deal with the fire."


----------



## Vanessa131

Odin_cat said:


> It's ridiculous that it isn't a legal obligation to provide a fire extinguisher in a rented property, especially apartments.


Some rentals require fire blankets, extinguishers etc. But the problem is that the general public are not trained to fight fire, so this can lead to the incorrect extinguisher being used in an incorrect way, which leads to delays in 999 being called.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> I have never, ever known a government hide from a tragedy before. Those poor people deserve better, this government is beyond contempt.


Yes, I think we all know how you feel about them.


----------



## JANICE199

MilleD said:


> Yes, seriously. There are no answers yet. Despite the fact that you want them to roll over and immediately confess it's all their fault, there are processes to go through.


*The government knew those flats were unsafe, and they chose not to do anything about it. The only reason they could have for doing nothing was to save money. Typical Tories.*


----------



## Vanessa131

JANICE199 said:


> *The government knew those flats were unsafe, and they chose not to do anything about it. The only reason they could have for doing nothing was to save money. Typical Tories.*


Quite a silly comment, if the current government knew the flats were unsafe, then so did the labour government when they were in power, so where is the Typical Labour comment?


----------



## Dr Pepper

Odin_cat said:


> It's ridiculous that it isn't a legal obligation to provide a fire extinguisher in a rented property, especially apartments.


To be fair a domestic extinguisher is of little use. In our case we were out of the house less than five minutes before the fire has took hold and there was no sign of it when we left. Apparently with faulty appliances generally they smoulder building up heat until they combust. It's not like a bonfire in your garden that slowly comes to life.

We were sat in a pub just last year and a car pulled in with smoke billowing from the bonnet, no flames just smoke, they opened the bonnet and used a extinguisher from the pub, worse than useless, about twenty seconds and it was depleted. It did go up in flames but no explosion and the firebrigade got it under control. But if there is a chance of an explosion you want to be using those twenty seconds getting away not trying to put it out.


----------



## Odin_cat

Vanessa131 said:


> Some rentals require fire blankets, extinguishers etc. But the problem is that the general public are not trained to fight fire, so this can lead to the incorrect extinguisher being used in an incorrect way, which leads to delays in 999 being called.


That's true I guess, I didn't think of that. 
But, in our flat we have a fire extinguisher in the only room without a window, meaning that hopefully we'd have a chance of getting to a window. In the UK, we'd be stuck waiting for the rescue services. I'd rather have the option tbh.

If most people can't use a fire extinguisher, we should probably teach it in schools.


----------



## Vanessa131

Odin_cat said:


> That's true I guess, I didn't think of that.
> But, in our flat we have a fire extinguisher in the only room without a window, meaning that hopefully we'd have a chance of getting to a window. In the UK, we'd be stuck waiting for the rescue services. I'd rather have the option tbh.
> 
> If most people can't use a fire extinguisher, we should probably teach it in schools.


Being in the UK doesn't stop people buying a fire extinguiser.
I don't believe it should be yet another job left to schools.


----------



## DoodlesRule

noushka05 said:


> UK Parliament: This government must carry out an INQUEST into the Grenfell tragedy, NOT a public inquiry ..
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliam...tm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=share_petition
> 
> .


I don't usually do petitions but I have signed that one


----------



## MilleD

JANICE199 said:


> *The government knew those flats were unsafe, and they chose not to do anything about it. The only reason they could have for doing nothing was to save money. Typical Tories.*


I'm sorry but 

All those poor people have died and all people can do is make cheap digs.

Because having been built in 1970, no other party has been in power during the life of this building.


----------



## Odin_cat

Dr Pepper said:


> To be fair a domestic extinguisher is of little use. In our case we were out of the house less than five minutes before the fire has took hold and there was no sign of it when we left. Apparently with faulty appliances generally they smoulder building up heat until they combust.
> 
> We were sat in a pub just last year and a car pulled in with smoke billowing from the bonnet, no flames just smoke, they opened the bonnet and used a extinguisher from the pub, worse than useless, about twenty seconds and it was depleted. It did go up in flames but no explosion and the firebrigade got it under control. But if there is a chance of an explosion you want to be using those twenty seconds getting away not trying to put it out.


Absolutely, obviously with appliance related fires it wouldn't help. Really sorry to hear about your experience and very glad your family were out at the time.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

MilleD said:


> I think might actually cause more harm than good. With an expectation that the tenant has to fight a fire.


 That is basically what our fire marshal trainer said, in his opinion if you give someone access to an extinguisher they think they are obliged to try and put out fires and delay calling 999. The company that do the annual checks on the fire safety equipment in my daughters shop say the only training they think is vital is how to get out and dial 999!


----------



## Jesthar

Vanessa131 said:


> Some rentals require fire blankets, extinguishers etc. But the problem is that the general public are not trained to fight fire, so this can lead to the incorrect extinguisher being used in an incorrect way, which leads to delays in 999 being called.


Not to mention the huge possibility of incorrect attempts making the fire much worse.


----------



## Vanessa131

Jesthar said:


> Not to mention the huge possibility of incorrect attempts making the fire much worse.


When we had training at work local fire fighters set some fires in metal bins for us to attempt to extinguish. They trained us in how to use the correct extinguisher, every single one of us made the fire worse despite this!

Our local fire service decided this was the best was to discourage people using fire extinguisers in enclosed spaces.

The experienced fire fighters who were accustomed to the feel of the fire and extinguisher etc put each one out in seconds.


----------



## JANICE199

MilleD said:


> I'm sorry but
> 
> All those poor people have died and all people can do is make cheap digs.
> 
> Because having been built in 1970, no other party has been in power during the life of this building.


*It's not a cheap dig, it's fact. 4years they have been sitting on the report they got, and chose to do nothing.*


----------



## stockwellcat.

This is the advice given by my friends social landlord which have gone up over night in response to the Grenfell Tower fire.










The same advice above was given to the victims of the Grenfell Tower fire.

I told my friend if it is safe to leave the block to use common sense and get out of the block. I wouldn't stay in the block if it is safe to evacuate eg no fire in the stairwell as like Grenfell Tower there is only one stairwell and two lifts.


----------



## Odin_cat

Vanessa131 said:


> Being in the UK doesn't stop people buying a fire extinguiser.
> I don't believe it should be yet another job left to schools.


Surely part of the fire service's role should be to educate children about fire safety. This always used to happen, unfortunately I expect cuts have made it near impossible to send fire fighters to schools.


----------



## MilleD

JANICE199 said:


> *It's not a cheap dig, it's fact. 4years they have been sitting on the report they got, and chose to do nothing.*


Ok.


----------



## 1290423

Im actually surprised that the block only had one staircase? Is this normal? I thought all large building had a fire escap e, obviously in mistaken


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Odin_cat said:


> That's true I guess, I didn't think of that.
> But, in our flat we have a fire extinguisher in the only room without a window, meaning that hopefully we'd have a chance of getting to a window. In the UK, we'd be stuck waiting for the rescue services. I'd rather have the option tbh.
> 
> If most people can't use a fire extinguisher, we should probably teach it in schools.


I think there must be a reason people who have been in the fire service and now provide fire training don`t want people messing about with fire extinguishers even after being trained in the use of them.


----------



## Vanessa131

Odin_cat said:


> Surely part of the fire service's role should be to educate children about fire safety. This always used to happen, unfortunately I expect cuts have made it near impossible to send fire fighters to schools.


It is not a schools responsibility, I would also not allow our children to be trained to use dangerous equipment that could lead them to make a dangerous situation even worse. I would only welcome training that could potentially keep them safe, e.g follow instructions if you are in a know area, or leave and call 999, I would not allow training that encouraged a child to remain with a fire for any length of time.


----------



## stockwellcat.

DT said:


> *I'm actually surprised that the block only had one staircase? Is this normal?* I thought all large building had a fire mistake, obviously in mistaken


It seems so as the block my friend lives in has one stairwell and two lifts and there are three blocks the same on that road.


----------



## Vanessa131

DT said:


> Im actually surprised that the block only had one staircase? Is this normal? I thought all large building had a fire escap e, obviously in mistaken


It is quite usual, especially as many buildings aren't suitable for an outdoor fire escape.


----------



## Odin_cat

Vanessa131 said:


> It is not a schools responsibility, I would also not allow our children to be trained to use dangerous equipment that could lead them to make a dangerous situation even worse. I would only welcome training that could potentially keep them safe, e.g follow instructions if you are in a know area, or leave and call 999, I would not allow training that encouraged a child to remain with a fire for any length of time.


Ok I understand your point, I think I'm thinking too specifically, in the cases where a fire extinguisher would help you get out.


----------



## Vanessa131

TM has just arrived at one of the hospitals, there were audible boos as she entered. 

The Queen is showing visible shock on her face, she is ensuring she speaks to each individual, it is unusual to see her showing any emotion.


----------



## Vanessa131

Odin_cat said:


> Ok I understand your point, I think I'm thinking too specifically, in the cases where a fire extinguisher would help you get out.


I also wouldn't trust most of our kids with a bottle of water, nevermind a fire extinguisher!!!! It is frustrating when good ideas aren't always applicable:


----------



## kimthecat

Andrea Leadsom visiting the site and being asked where the PM is . The residents are very angry and so they should be .


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> Andrea Leadsom visiting the site and being asked where the PM is . The residents are very angry and so they should be .


I think TM has made a mistake, it just does not look good for her to have closed controlled meeting with emergency services at the site and not see a single victim. She is going into the hospitals today but I think she has already done further damage to her reputation.


----------



## kimthecat

Queen and wills visiting the centre where the volunteers are etc 
Theresa may has turned up at Westminster hospital to visit those injured .


----------



## Vanessa131

Theres a poor lady on who has six members of her family missing who lived on the 22nd floor, she managed to call her sister but all she could hear was screaming. It must be awful to be waiting, I think we know the answer she will get unfortunately, but when true fact hits it must be awful. 

It has now been released that 76 people are not accounted for, but no one will confirm if this includes people in hospital who are yet to be identified or the 17 already confirmed to have died.


----------



## Vanessa131

It has just been confirmed 30 are confirmed to have died, one died in hospital, 12 are in a mortuary and the rest are awaiting recovery in the tower.


----------



## kimthecat

3dogs2cats said:


> I think TM has made a mistake, it just does not look good for her to have closed controlled meeting with emergency services at the site and not see a single victim. She is going into the hospitals today but I think she has already done further damage to her reputation.


 Absolutely , many others are saying the same. I'm sure she has been very busy and been abroad dealing with other matters but if she was in the area , and as you say not meeting a single victim , that's not acceptable .


----------



## shadowmare

kimthecat said:


> Absolutely , many others are saying the same. I'm sure she has been very busy and been abroad dealing with other matters but if she was in the area , and as you say not meeting a single victim , that's not acceptable .


I'm not really surprised. TM clearly struggles with the social aspect of the job and is unable to deal with journalists or the general public. I believe a few days before the election some woman who works for her pr or something to do with the media was commenting on TM not attending debates. She was saying that it's a real struggle to get TM to do anything with media etc because she simply doesn't like it and avoids it at all cost. If she put so little effort before the election, why would she do it now? She is doing well creating an image of a cold and fckless woman. All she is missing is a fur coat made of dalmatian puppies and she is good to go as the perfect villain running through fields of whey... 
I witnessed a huge fire in a block of flats on my street a few years ago. I will never forget the smell, the cracking noise and the horrible sound made by exploding windows. We all stood on the street in the middle of the night watching the fire brigade try to save the last 5 people stuck in the top floor corner flat. Every time I think of the image i feel sick. They were all young students, my age, standing by their bay window, while the flames were already broken through the roof in next door flat and were already coming through their next door room's window where the glass already shattered. I can image the terror the whole community went through with such a huge building with so many people stuck in the fire... And it being such a high tower, it will constantly be seen and remind everyone of what happened. Not something that can be forgotten easily when you constantly see a reminder of it whenever you go outside...


----------



## sesmo

Couldn't believe the news when I woke up on Tuesday morning. Those poor people, I'm not usually one to be upset by news items but this one has got to me a bit. It's not been helped by some truly terrible remarks on the internet (not this forum!) about the who's, why's and where fors. Massive props to the Emergency Services both on and off scene and to all those who have responded from the Community.

As I live in a rural area with solid fuel heating and where the fire service would take approx 25 minutes to get to me, I keep a fire extinguisher and a fire blanket in the house. Obviously a big fire and I'm out of there, but a small one I'd attempt to put out. I hope I'd be successful.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Yes, I think we all know how you feel about them.


Likewise.


----------



## Creativecat

Jesthar said:


> Extinguish.  And even if it _was _his fridge that caused this, there is no responsibility on him to have tried to tackle the fire. Not that it will be any comfort to him, but he wasn't to know his supposedly self-contained fireproof box was neither contained nor fireproof, and even if he had there was still nothing he could have done other than leave and call the fire brigade.
> 
> I'm fire marshal trained at work, and that includes practical training with various types of extinguishers and fire blankets on different types of fires. Even so, our training strictly says tackle the blaze _only if safe to do so_, and only with appropriate equipment, whilst waiting for the professionals to arrive. What are the chances of someone having a Co2 or dry powder extinguisher suitable for tackling an electrical fire to hand in their home?
> 
> There's a very good reason the old TV fire safety adverts used to say "Get out. Get the Fire Brigade out. Stay out."


You are right maybe I'm being foolish along the lines of a chip
Pan erupting and putting a damp blanket over . Still no one knows officially what caused the fire as yet .


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Their excuse was they were in the process of finding a new contractor .


It's quite shocking that a tragedy of this size has to happen before anything is done. Shameful.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Likewise.


Not really. I'm fairly disenchanted with them at the moment. But I never take any opportunity to slag off Labour as some people do the Conservatives.

It's makes for exhausting reading.


----------



## MilleD

Calvine said:


> It's quite shocking that a tragedy of this size has to happen before anything is done. Shameful.


And that's the point the residents were making last year. Shame it had to come to this.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> Not really. I'm fairly disenchanted with them at the moment. But I never take any opportunity to slag off Labour as some people do the Conservatives.
> 
> It's makes for exhausting reading.


Labour isn't in government, the tories are, yet you don't seem to like them being held being to account.


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Labour isn't in government, the tories are, yet you don't seem to like them being held being to account.


No, I think they should be held to account. But it's the way it's done sometimes.

And I didn't continuously slag off labour when they _were_ in government either. I take it you remember those 'halcyon' days.

Anyway, done on this thread. Haven't got the strength.

RIP to all those lost or who have lost.


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> No, I think they should be held to account. But it's the way it's done sometimes.
> 
> And I didn't continuously slag off labour when they _were_ in government either. I take it you remember those 'halcyon' days.
> 
> Anyway, done on this thread. Haven't got the strength.
> 
> RIP to all those lost or who have lost.


Well I slag off whoever is in government when they deserve it, I was never a fan of new labour, but lets face it this country has never been in such a state. The tories have trashed it with their selfishness.


----------



## shadowmare

Just seen the Queen visiting everyone. Somehow it was the first time I thought - that is a lot of hard meetings for a wee 90yo lady  Being a foreigner I am very much neutral when it comes to the royal family, so I do just see her as a wee old lady. I know how my gran gets upset and stressed about anyone in the family or her friends being unwell. I can only imagine that it's not the healthiest of things emotionally or physically for the Queen to constantly visit such sad meetings. I have a bit of admiration that she just gets dressed and goes out, rather than just hiding away.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> Well I slag off whoever is in government when they deserve it, I was never a fan of new labour, but lets face it this country has never been in such a state.


 Depends on how far back you go .


----------



## JANICE199

shadowmare said:


> Just seen the Queen visiting everyone. Somehow it was the first time I thought - that is a lot of hard meetings for a wee 90yo lady  Being a foreigner I am very much neutral when it comes to the royal family, so I do just see her as a wee old lady. I know how my gran gets upset and stressed about anyone in the family or her friends being unwell. I can only imagine that it's not the healthiest of things emotionally or physically for the Queen to constantly visit such sad meetings. I have a bit of admiration that she just gets dressed and goes out, rather than just hiding away.


*I'm no royalist, but i respect this woman because. she has always performed her duties as she should have. Now i would be the first to condemn her when Princess Dianna died, for not acting as the people thought she should.*
*That aside, like it or not, i believe she has done her job far better than was expected of her. Sadly, i don't think we will ever see another like her.*


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Depends on how far back you go .


In my lifetime for certain & I was directly affected by the year long miners strike.


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> I read that somewhere too. I also read it would only have cost an extra few thousand to use the safe version of the cladding?


£5,000.

Just £5,000 more would have bought the fire resistant version of the panels. It's £2 more per square metre. The stuff they used meets UK regulations, but is rated (and banned) in Germany as being as flammable as unprotected wood under 12mm in thickness - i.e., pretty much kindling. It's supposed to be used on small commercial buildings, not tower blocks.

Warning for pictures and video in the link.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...on-cladding-banned-us-flammable-a7792711.html


----------



## Honeys mum

Jesthar said:


> Just £5,000 more would have bought the fire resistant version of the panels. It's £2 more per square metre. The stuff they used meets UK regulations, but is rated (and banned) in Germany as being as flammable as unprotected wood under 12mm in thickness - i.e., pretty much kindling. It's supposed to be used on small commercial buildings, not tower blocks.


The £2 tragedy? Outrage grows at how fire spread Fireprooof cladding which could have prevented the Grenfell Tower disaster would have cost just £5,000 to install, it has been claimed. Panels used were £2 cheaper than fire-resistant version »

Looks like this must be true then.

Questions need to be answered, just read that the Mayor of London has written to T.M. asking for answers.

Also just found this, not sure if its true.

Grenfell Tower: London Mayor Sadiq Khan's letter to the Prime Minister


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> In my lifetime for certain & I was directly affected by the year long miners strike.


On twitter there was a thread TheWorstPrimeMinisterEver about May and I wondered if Mrs Thatcher had been forgotten . 
So it seems these two are in the most hated top 10 and I'd put Blair there too .


----------



## labradrk

Big protests inside and outside the council buildings in Kensington. 

People need to be held criminally for this. As many have said, it's corporate manslaughter, just so sick and tragic and highlights the great inequalities in class and wealth in this country


----------



## Creativecat

It's all kicking off outside the town hall not good . But understand there frustration but hope it doesn't turn sour . Wouldn't want that


----------



## cheekyscrip

People are frustrated and angry. They need proper housing, children need to go back to school.

People have to know who is missing and how to proceed.
They need legal help, not being blamed by the MP and the council.

If you look it I pretty obvious that sprinklers would have not stopped the fire spreading on outside!!!


----------



## kimthecat

Honeys mum said:


> The £2 tragedy? Outrage grows at how fire spread Fireprooof cladding which could have prevented the Grenfell Tower disaster would have cost just £5,000 to install, it has been claimed. Panels used were £2 cheaper than fire-resistant version »
> 
> Looks like this must be true then.
> 
> Questions need to be answered, just read that the Mayor of London has written to T.M. asking for answers.
> 
> Also just found this, not sure if its true.


I think this has already been mentioned in this thread ,

@havoc said 
"I honestly doubt anyone sat and made a cynical decision to save £5k on a project of this size Noush. More likely it was never even raised because regulations don't require it, those commissioning the project don't know there's a better option and those advising them (if they had advice) won't have pushed for it."

I'm thinking along the same lines.

I sincerely hope there will be no cover ups if any wrong doing is found though .


----------



## havoc

labradrk said:


> People need to be held criminally for this


It is going to be interesting to see in time if anyone has been reckless enough for that to be the case.


----------



## kimthecat

labradrk said:


> Big protests inside and outside the council buildings in Kensington.


 A genuine protest for a real reason , for a change . good for them , i would join them if i could though as @Creativecat said , hope it doesn't turn sour .


----------



## cheekyscrip

If a resident was as posted above threatened by council for publicly speaking about his fire safety concerns?

I would hold council- the landlord directly responsible.
Council was accused just last year of incompetence!

Someone made the decision to use cheaper materials. Someone employed the company, approved the project of refurbishment.I
It does not matter if residents wanted the sprinklers!
Concerns about those buildings were voiced for years!

Government should go for inquest not just inquiry.


It will test their compassion as well as competence.


----------



## Calvine

Creativecat said:


> To be fair iv never heared of a fridge exploding


Household appliances are sometimes 'dodgy'. I read (by chance) about a Bosch dishwasher that had gone up in flames (fortunately not with any dreadful results, just damage to the kitchen). In the same article it said that several Bosch dishwashers might well be faulty and to check online if yours was a dodgy one. So I checked mine (serial number inside door) and sure enough mine was a fire risk and had to be fixed. But what occurred to me was that I only saw the article by chance...Bosch did not attempt to contact me altho' I was at the same address when I bought the appliance and filled out the warranty card. Also, well before that happened, a friend of mine said he went into the kitchen in the middle of the night and it was really hot in there to his surprise. He then realised that his Bosch dishwasher was red hot to the touch and was actually heating up the whole kitchen.. He dumped it.

I believe also that there have been a few scares with BEKO appliances (tumble dryers I believe). Admittedly Beko are not exactly top of the range, but you would hope they were safe to use, maybe just not last as long. But it seems that cheap means dangerous sometimes...


----------



## Jesthar

cheekyscrip said:


> If you look it I pretty obvious that sprinklers would have not stopped the fire spreading on outside!!!


No, but it is very likely they could have stopped the fire from taking hold in the flat in the first place.

The point of a sprinkler system is that it activates quickly when a location becomes abnormally hot, and hopefully keeps the fire from spreading from it's ignition point, even if it can't put it out completely, allowing extra time for people to get out and for the fire brigade to attend and deal with the matter before the fire spreads. This is a three minute comparative side by side British Standard test burn showing the massive difference a sprinkler can make in even a relatively open environment:


----------



## Creativecat

TM has anounced a 5 million pound package that's  great news .but for food and clothes . So what the hell have donations and volunteers been doing these last 3 days


----------



## Elles

What is happening about the other 4 tower blocks the same people have refurbished? It was 6 in total, I believe, and 2 have burned. Is anything being said? There's talk of gas leaks, power failures, alarm failures, door failures and the cladding.

If Labour can find 11 billion to pay uni places, the government can find the money to move them all out while the buildings are checked, double checked and made safe. The improvements weren't authorised and completed in the past few months, this goes back a lot longer than May's government. I wonder if May is simply not up to it, I'd be in bits. The Queen looks the saddest and most drained that I've ever seen her tbh.


----------



## havoc

cheekyscrip said:


> Someone made the decision to use cheaper materials.


Someone decided to use materials which complied with regs and specification. 
I'm quite sure heads will roll over this. I'm not so sure the blame will land on anyone who really had the knowledge and power to make a difference. The public won't care, as long as they get a fall guy or three they'll be happy.


----------



## labradrk

How far will 5 million even go when we are talking about 500+ people who have had their lives destroyed? particularly in one of the most expensive if not the most expensive part of the country?


----------



## kimthecat

About the protest , just got back from walking the dogs and will be watching the 6 pm news , I think they are asking for answers from the council about the numbers of people killed or the number that lived there and also about awarding the contract .
its not always possible to know who lived in the flats if the are subcontracted or rent out without the council knowing and I believe the council is obliged to take the cheapest tender when awarding contracts .


----------



## MiffyMoo

Creativecat said:


> TM has anounced a 5 million pound package that's great news .but for food and clothes . So what the hell have donations and volunteers been doing these last 3 days


They'll need a brand new wardrobe, not just the clothes that have already been donated. I can't imagine that the donated food is limitless either


----------



## Siskin

Calvine said:


> Household appliances are sometimes 'dodgy'. I read (by chance) about a Bosch dishwasher that had gone up in flames (fortunately not with any dreadful results, just damage to the kitchen). In the same article it said that several Bosch dishwashers might well be faulty and to check online if yours was a dodgy one. So I checked mine (serial number inside door) and sure enough mine was a fire risk and had to be fixed. But what occurred to me was that I only saw the article by chance...Bosch did not attempt to contact me altho' I was at the same address when I bought the appliance and filled out the warranty card. Also, well before that happened, a friend of mine said he went into the kitchen in the middle of the night and it was really hot in there to his surprise. He then realised that his Bosch dishwasher was red hot to the touch and was actually heating up the whole kitchen.. He dumped it.
> 
> I believe also that there have been a few scares with BEKO appliances (tumble dryers I believe). Admittedly Beko are not exactly top of the range, but you would hope they were safe to use, maybe just not last as long. But it seems that cheap means dangerous sometimes...


I've got a Bosch dishwasher!

Can you tell me which one it is and where to check out to see if it's a fault one


----------



## havoc

MiffyMoo said:


> They'll need a brand new wardrobe, not just the clothes that have already been donated.


Those sort of things are honestly the least of their worries. What they need is identification documents which they don't have and have no way of replacing. They are about to enter a vicious circle of non-existence. Take trying to get a replacement bank card. Their address doesn't exist any more so it can't be sent there. The alternative is to pick it up at a branch of the bank - for which you need at least one form of photo ID which of course they don't have. They're in no condition to fight our 'computer says no' world but that's what they're going to have to do and it will take each one of them months to sort out.


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> Those sort of things are honestly the least of their worries. What they need is identification documents which they don't have and have no way of replacing. They are about to enter a vicious circle of non-existence. Take trying to get a replacement bank card. Their address doesn't exist any more so it can't be sent there. The alternative is to pick it up at a branch of the bank - for which you need at least one form of photo ID which of course they don't have. They're in no condition to fight our 'computer says no' world but that's what they're going to have to do and it will take each one of them months to sort out.


Indeed, and one hopes that help will be made available to them. That doesn't really have anything to do with a fund that is providing food and clothing


----------



## havoc

MiffyMoo said:


> That doesn't really have anything to do with a fund that is providing food and clothing


It doesn't but the real problems they're going to have in putting their lives back together can't be solved with any amount of money.


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> It doesn't but the real problems they're going to have in putting their lives back together can't be solved with any amount of money.


I really don't know what to say.


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> It doesn't but the real problems they're going to have in putting their lives back together can't be solved with any amount of money.


No. They would need legal aid. Best lawyers to represent them. They would need counselling. Many issues..
Then other tower blocks with no sprinklers, with similar cladding....


----------



## havoc

MiffyMoo said:


> I really don't know what to say.


It's almost impossible to comprehend having absolutely nothing, not even the wherewithal to show you are who you say you are. It's an almost impossible situation in a modern world.


----------



## havoc

cheekyscrip said:


> No. They would need legal aid.


For which you need ID. It really is a vicious circle.


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> It's almost impossible to comprehend having absolutely nothing, not even the wherewithal to show you are who you say you are. It's an almost impossible situation in a modern world.


I'm still confused why you tagged that onto the conversation about the fund. They're completely separate issues, which is why I really have no idea what you want me to say


----------



## havoc

Sorry, didn't realise their problems were to be compartmentalised.


----------



## suewhite

Siskin said:


> I've got a Bosch dishwasher!
> 
> Can you tell me which one it is and where to check out to see if it's a fault one


Fault was a few years back mine set my kitchen alight but that was 5years ago.


----------



## suewhite

suewhite said:


> Fault was a few years back mine set my kitchen alight but that was 5years ago.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...washers-that-catch-fire-still-being-used.html


----------



## MiffyMoo

havoc said:


> Sorry, didn't realise their problems were to be compartmentalised.


It's about relevance. They're both important points, but it came across as if you were cross about a fund for clothes and food, not for replacing ID


----------



## noushka05

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas* 11h11 hours ago

.
_So many reasons for fury - we've said for years that deregulation, shrinking the state
has consequences -seeing again how fatal they can be

http://www.24housing.co.uk/news/former-housing-ministers-under-pressure-over-grenfell-fire/

._


----------



## Siskin

suewhite said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...washers-that-catch-fire-still-being-used.html


Thank you.

Checked mine and it is a higher number, we've only had it a couple of years.

Must have given you one hell of a fright when it set your kitchen alight. Did it cause much damage?


----------



## suewhite

Siskin said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Checked mine and it is a higher number, we've only had it a couple of years.
> 
> Must have given you one hell of a fright when it set your kitchen alight. Did it cause much damage?


Yes melted everything near it and worktop set alight could have been worse if it had been at night could have burnt the house down, glad yours is in the clear.x


----------



## Calvine

Siskin said:


> Can you tell me which one it is and where to check out to see if it's a fault one


It was a Bosch Exxcel Auto Option a few years back and the model by now would be quite old, so if yours is a newer one, it will most likely be OK. I'm not sure what model my friend's was...his overheated before I'd read the article, it was reading it that reminded me what he had said earlier, but it was defo a Bosch. Sure if you google Bosch dishwasher fire hazard or the like it will come up, otherwise if it's still relevant, it should be on Bosch website. I know it was one of the more expensive brands at the time.


----------



## Elles

I risked the news tonight. Theresa May has said they will rehouse everyone from the block within 3 weeks which won't be easy. They will also be moving people out of the other at risk tower blocks and reassessing safety in all of them. May looks to have lost weight. The police are holding their own inquiry into whether there will be any criminal charges. The fire service are holding their own inquiry into how it started and why it spread. Then there will be the separate public inquiry.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Incredible that no other but Johnson criticises Khan!!!
For how long Bojo was a Mayor?.What was done?
Refurbishment started and project approved during his time???

Residents complained for years ..Khan is fairly recently elected.

Do not want to be political, but Bojo of all scoring points on that!!!









Clearly Boris has forgotten he was in charge?
Or attack is his defence?

Shameless.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Incredible that no other but Johnson criticises Khan!!!
> 
> Residents complained for years ..Khan is fairly recently elected.
> .


Khan was elected just over a year ago in May , May was elected leader last July . Yet people are blaming her so why not Mr khan ?

The 5 million is an emergency fund for immediate necessities. i hope their will bemore money further down the line.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Khan was elected just over a year ago in May , May was elected leader last July . Yet people are blaming her so why not Mr khan ?
> 
> The 5 million is an emergency fund for immediate necessities. i hope their will bemore money further down the line.


People aren't blaming May for the actual fire. They're

A) Blaming the Tories running the local council for cosmetically refurbishing a tower block into 'firetrap' status, ignoring repeated attempts from residents to highlight all the safety issues, threatening people with legal action for blogging about those issues, implying on national TV the residents didn't want fire safety measures implemented etc.,

B) Blaming the Tory government in general for not having got round to doing anything with a report into a similar tower block fire - a report that was submitted in 2013, recommended the retrofitting of sprinkler systems in 4,000 tower blocks across the UK, and could therefore potentially have prevented this horror from being more than a localised flat fire. And

C) Criticising May for using 'security concerns' as an excuse for seemingly actively avoiding survivors of the fire, particularly as others of high public status such as the Mayor of London and our 91 year old monarch are out there doing the rounds without batting an eyelid.


----------



## raebhoop

What a bunch of prats some politicians are...all their so called advisors and PR men and they still get it wrong. 
The public want to see the tear in the eye....the sympathetic nodding of the head while talking to the common peasant. Not doing a guided tour of the site with senior civil servants followed by a public statement.

The ideal opportunity lost to show they do understand the feelings of Joe Public and not living on another planet.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Incredible that no other but Johnson criticises Khan!!!
> For how long Bojo was a Mayor?.What was done?
> Refurbishment started and project approved during his time???
> 
> Residents complained for years ..Khan is fairly recently elected.
> 
> Do not want to be political, but Bojo of all scoring points on that!!!
> View attachment 315002
> 
> 
> Clearly Boris has forgotten he was in charge?
> Or attack is his defence?
> 
> Shameless.





kimthecat said:


> Khan was elected just over a year ago in May , May was elected leader last July . Yet people are blaming her so why not Mr khan ?
> 
> The 5 million is an emergency fund for immediate necessities. i hope their will bemore money further down the line.


Johnson was slapped down by a firefighter for trying to weasel out of the blame.


----------



## Calvine

Isn't the Queen amazing! It won't bring back what many people have lost, but I think people really appreciated her impromptu visit; she really has never put a foot wrong in her life (and at 91 that's some achievement).


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> Isn't the Queen amazing! It won't bring back what many people have lost, but I think people really appreciated her impromptu visit; she really has never put a foot wrong (at 91 that's some achievement).


Her Grandson doesn't do too bad either. He promised that he would be back


----------



## grumpy goby

The political mudslinging around this makes me sad.

What we need is an OBJECTIVE review of the incident. How it happened, why it happened, why it spread, what failings there were at several levels... from the coal front (maintenance and install), design (consultants, designer and CDM review) to British and ISO standards of buildings, and finally process, procedure and regulatory impacts.
Assumptions and mud slinging solves nothing. We need the Facts. They need to be assessed and scrutinised and educated, factual conclusion drawn.


Then We need change... and that mean more than simply fitting some sprinklers... change on all levels.


----------



## MiffyMoo

grumpy goby said:


> The political mudslinging around this makes me sad.
> 
> What we need is an OBJECTIVE review of the incident. How it happened, why it happened, why it spread, what failings there were at several levels... from the coal front (maintenance and install), design (consultants, designer and CDM review) to British and ISO standards of buildings, and finally process, procedure and regulatory impacts.
> Assumptions and mud slinging solves nothing. We need the Facts. They need to be assessed and scrutinised and educated, factual conclusion drawn.
> 
> Then We need change... and that mean more than simply fitting some sprinklers... change on all levels.


Absolutely. They haven't even recovered all the bodies yet, let alone started the investigation, so how everyone suddenly knows exactly what happened and whose fault it is is beyond me.

The fact that certain factions have seen this as an ideal opportunity to hijack proceedings to politically agitate and turn the focus away from the victims and into their "cause" is just disgusting!


----------



## noushka05

grumpy goby said:


> The political mudslinging around this makes me sad.
> 
> What we need is an OBJECTIVE review of the incident. How it happened, why it happened, why it spread, what failings there were at several levels... from the coal front (maintenance and install), design (consultants, designer and CDM review) to British and ISO standards of buildings, and finally process, procedure and regulatory impacts.
> Assumptions and mud slinging solves nothing. We need the Facts. They need to be assessed and scrutinised and educated, factual conclusion drawn.
> 
> Then We need change... and that mean more than simply fitting some sprinklers... change on all levels.


I don't disagree with you but if there is a public inquiry instead of an inquest the fear is there will be a whitewash - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...nds-whitewash-fears-latest-news-a7793866.html

.


----------



## stockwellcat.

This cartoon is in the papers today but went viral last night on social media. It portrays the Queen thanking the emergency services and Theresa May at the end of the line with the Queen shaking Theresa May's hand asking "and what do you do?"


----------



## grumpy goby

The fire services review and HSE audit hopefully will get to the facts of the actual incident and policies/procedures/management systems/design and fire risk assessment review... I can't comment on the public enquiry who will probably work in favour of the office in power....


----------



## Creativecat

Calvine said:


> Isn't the Queen amazing! It won't bring back what many people have lost, but I think people really appreciated her impromptu visit; she really has never put a foot wrong in her life (and at 91 that's some achievement).


She has been a Total credit to the nation and commonwealth being rightly much loved . But to say she hasn't put a foot wrong not entirely true. As she and her family was seen not be that caring or compassionate when Diana was unfortunately killed in Paris but after much outrage saw the error of there ways to be fair . And once again taken back into public love and favour. Not by everyone but I certainly regard her with respect and 
Gratitude. For her many years of loyal service


----------



## Honeys mum

Jesthar said:


> C) Criticising May for using 'security concerns' as an excuse for seemingly actively avoiding survivors of the fire, particularly as others of high public status such as the Mayor of London and our 91 year old monarch are out there doing the rounds without batting an eyelid.


Also J.C., he may not be up there with the ones you have mentioned and I may not be a fan of his. But have to admit, credit where credits due.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Absolutely. They haven't even recovered all the bodies yet, let alone started the investigation, so how everyone suddenly knows exactly what happened and whose fault it is is beyond me.
> 
> The fact that certain factions have seen this as an ideal opportunity to hijack proceedings to politically agitate and turn the focus away from the victims and into their "cause" is just disgusting!


There are loads of videos on the internet, perhaps you should listen to what the victims themselves are saying. They want our support, they do not want this swept under the carpet. This IS a political issue -


----------



## stockwellcat.

It's the Queen's official birthday today and the Queen has released this statement:


----------



## Calvine

Creativecat said:


> after much outrage


I think the Royal Family underestimated how people would react after her (Diana's) death as they had probably not had anything quite like it happen before.


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> There are loads of videos on the internet, perhaps you should listen to what the victims themselves are saying. They want our support, they do not want this swept under the carpet. This IS a political issue -


Yes it's political, why didn't Labour install sprinklers in every high rise during their eighteen or so years in government since this tower block was built? There is no single party, let alone single politician, responsible. A £5,000 saving on a £10,000,000 refurbishment doesn't sound like a cost cutting exercise, more incompetence from whoever project managed it. But let's wait and see.

Political point scoring on a tragedy is frankly pathetic and very unhelpful to the survivors, victims and their families.


----------



## stockwellcat.

..


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Grenfell fire protesters descend on Downing Street with chants of 'May must go'*

Protesters angry at the response from Theresa May's Government to the Grenfell Tower fire disaster have descended on Whitehall, shouting: "May must go".

Hundreds of people marched to Downing Street from the Home Office headquarters with shouts of "blood on your hands" and demanding "justice for Grenfell".

Demonstrators also staged a sit-down protest in Oxford Circus and gathered outside Broadcasting House.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-must-go-chants-latest-news-a7794271.html?amp


----------



## stockwellcat.

Westminster last night (Protesters chanting "May must go"):


----------



## KittenKong

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2017...-tories-openly-declared-war-on-health-safety/


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> There are loads of videos on the internet, perhaps you should listen to what the victims themselves are saying. They want our support, they do not want this swept under the carpet. This IS a political issue -


Since when did I suggest sweeping it under the carpet? I asked that people stop demanding they know the facts and the Government must topple right now. Nobody knows the facts, as they still haven't finished getting the bodies out, let alone started the investigation. And I do t mean the inquest, I mean the investigation by the professionals who have trained for years for exactly this. Once their report has. One out then it's time to turn the spotlight on the failures and what led to the eventual dreadful outcome.

Watching YouTube videos does not make you an expert, but the constant shrieking and marching muddies the waters and makes the jobs of the emergency services that much more difficult


----------



## MiffyMoo

stockwellcat said:


> Westminster last night (Protesters chanting "May must go"):


How is that helping the victims? It's not. May had absolutely nothing to do with this. Yes, she was, yet again, shite at the public side of her job, but I'm pretty sure that's not a good enough reason to sack her.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I think the Royal family underestimated how people would react after her (Diana's) death as they had probably not had anything quite like it happen before.


She was also dealing with her grieving family and her two young grandchildren utterly stunned and heartbroken .
i think she made a mistake not to come down to London earlier but she did come in the end .

Diana's body was brought through Northolt airport escorted by Prince Charles and her sisters, they passed in a funeral car with the hearse following. you could see the raw grief on their faces including Charles.

It was a very strange experience , people were lining the roads waiting , they were talking and laughing and I felt disgusted by it but when the hearse passed , the reality hit and it was total dead silence. When the crowds left they were subdue and quiet , many walking with their heads down .


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes it's political, why didn't Labour install sprinklers in every high rise during their eighteen or so years in government since this tower block was built?


London had the GLC for about 20 years (65 - 85 or thereabouts); surely housing/shortage of housing/affordable housing and the _safety of housing_ would be one of the subjects within their remit? And I believe this building was built in the 70's.


----------



## Elles

It was, but experts are already saying it's likely due to the refurb and a number of different factors involved in that, creating the perfect storm. This can't be ignored, as if it is the case there are more people living in refurbished tower blocks.

Fortunately it does appear that the government aren't ignoring it and councils are checking all tower blocks and moving people out of the recent refurbs while they are checked and redone if necessary as a precaution starting this weekend. Or so it said on BBC news last night. Heads may well roll, but riots won't solve anything. 

Let's give this government a chance, they haven't been in power very long. They did recommend to councils and other bodies after the last report in 2015 that sprinklers were retrofitted into tower blocks and are looking to reviewing the law. I haven't seen labour councils rushing to fit sprinklers, or being particularly vocal about lack of money for it, if that was the problem. A none issue for them too until dozens die? My auntie was moved into one in the late 60s. When I stayed with her I'd lie awake half the night worrying about how we'd get out from the 7 th floor if there was a fire and listening to the lifts whirring. I was about 7 or 8 and daren't look out the window, they're terrifying to me. If I'd been a councillor and was told they weren't safe without sprinklers I'd have ended up on a soapbox and getting the sack, but it seems complacency rules.

So let's try to keep the main politics to the election thread?

The police have better things to do at the moment, rather than being out trying to control angry mobs. And make no mistake, although many have every reason to be angry, those that behave the angriest could be there for fun. They often are.


----------



## Creativecat

What shocks me is the news overkill . They way they are all constantly trying to outdo each other with who's got the most salacious news bite .,they way even introduction to the news has the presenters plonked in front if this mass tomb ffs. Have they no sence of shame and respect for the family's grief . I know it needs to be highlighted. But come on what are we gonna. Be subject to next a media presenters and pundits news pod dropped in by helicopter . Like what they have at major tournaments like the bbc do so well . Looking over the city scape but looking at a terrible RTA. Or another burnt out husk of a building . I think the bbc have already been wrist slapped but as in anything more serious I guess they will carry on for another day like the others do I guess


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Let's give this government a chance, they haven't been in power very long.


I don't consider seven years to be not very long!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Elles said:


> Let's give this government a chance, they haven't been in power very long.


Have you been asleep for the last 7 years? The Tories have put this country on its knees again snipping away at everything even the councils budget.


> So let's try to keep the main politics to the election thread?


But politics comes into this debate so why transfer this debate to the elections thread when it has nothing to do with the elections thread?


> The police have better things to do at the moment, rather than being out trying to control angry mobs.


We pay our council tax so police can deal with angry mobs like this to prevent these mobs from getting out of control. If the police weren't there to control this angry mob more than likely this would have spiralled out of control. Police are paid by us to control situations like this.

Sorry but I disagree with every point you raised above and that's why I commented. But hey ho that's how debates go.


----------



## Elles

KittenKong said:


> I don't consider seven years to be not very long!


If we're going to count Cameron's conservatives, then we have to count Blair's labour. It was Labour who compulsory purchased my Aunty's terrace that she'd lived in all her life, to build a new road, despite people barricading themselves in in their street. Labour who built her tower block and Labour who moved her into it. She became ill soon afterwards and died around a year later. She was in her early 60s.

May has been in power for 5 minutes and been harangued for every decision since, I don't think she can be blamed for everything on the planet and the last thing people need for a minute is another election. I agree she's crap, this government is crap, it's all crap, but hold your horses, at the end of the day, they got the most votes and the most seats and we don't need a revolution today. Next year maybe, but not today. 

If you're happy with people storming the streets and the police having to deal with it, so be it. I'm going out to ride my horse.


----------



## Creativecat

When I saw them storm the council building with there angry followers . I thought of when there was mass riots and looting across the uk when that thug got shot rightly or wrongley by the police a few years back . Could this happen again I hope not :0(


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> If we're going to count Cameron's conservatives, then we have to count Blair's labour. It was Labour who compulsory purchased my Aunty's terrace that she'd lived in all her life, to build a new road, despite people barricading themselves in in their street. Labour who built her tower block and Labour who moved her into it. She became ill soon afterwards and died around a year later. She was in her early 60s.
> 
> May has been in power for 5 minutes and been harangued for every decision since, I don't think she can be blamed for everything on the planet and the last thing people need for a minute is another election. I agree she's crap, this government is crap, it's all crap, but hold your horses, at the end of the day, they got the most votes and the most seats and we don't need a revolution today. Next year maybe, but not today.
> 
> If you're happy with people storming the streets and the police having to deal with it, so be it. I'm going out to ride my horse.


Well said! Although I'm sure I banned you talking about your horse


----------



## Jobeth

Creativecat said:


> What shocks me is the news overkill . They way they are all constantly trying to outdo each other with who's got the most salacious news bite .,they way even introduction to the news has the presenters plonked in front if this mass tomb ffs. Have they no sence of shame and respect for the family's grief . I know it needs to be highlighted. But come on what are we gonna. Be subject to next a media presenters and pundits news pod dropped in by helicopter . Like what they have at major tournaments like the bbc do so well . Looking over the city scape but looking at a terrible RTA. Or another burnt out husk of a building . I think the bbc have already been wrist slapped but as in anything more serious I guess they will carry on for another day like the others do I guess


I totally agree. I looked at one 'news' site. They had an article about how witnesses could hear the children scream. If that wasn't bad enough you could also watch the fire and listen to them. I honestly wonder what sort of person would choose to do so.

In contrast if you listen to the reporter at the Hindenburg - he had to go inside so that he no longer had to see it. I'm sure he would question the 'humanity' of those who would now do anything to get the best footage - as well as those who are choosing to watch it.


----------



## Dr Pepper

MiffyMoo said:


> Well said! Although I'm sure I banned you talking about your horse


Oh gawd, keep @Elles away from Mrs Pepper, the number of times I have say to people "for the love of God don't get her started on her horses......". :Banghead


----------



## Franksthename

It's shocking what's going on yes the people have got every right to be angry but getting political as the media tends to do it just isn't on there's still those poor victims lying in those flats there's just no respect at all or maybe I was just bought up wrong


----------



## Dr Pepper

Franksthename said:


> It's shocking what's going on yes the people have got every right to be angry but getting political as the media tends to do it just isn't on there's still those poor victims lying in those flats there's just no respect at all or maybe I was just bought up wrong


Na, you were brought up right. A bunch of morons hanging on a tragedy for political gain were brought up wrong.

Any excuse for some people, they don't actually care but just want to protest and commit violence under whatever banner.


----------



## SpringDance




----------



## Happy Paws2

I think TM is getting what she deserves, I know we can't blame her for everything, but she has shown what a cold, heartless cow she is. Meeting them today for tea and sympathy, is to late.


----------



## kimthecat

will be spending some time checking this out ;


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> How is that helping the victims? It's not. May had absolutely nothing to do with this. Yes, she was, yet again, shite at the public side of her job, but I'm pretty sure that's not a good enough reason to sack her.


Tbh I cant workout why. TM is getting all the flack, she has only been PM for a year. Understand why this has become political but please if you are going to start blaming and calling for sackings you need to be blaming and sacking the right people,and to do that you need to look back 10 years in government


----------



## 1290423

Happy Paws said:


> I think TM is getting what she deserves, I know we can't blame her for everything, but she has shown what a cold, heartless cow she is. Meeting them today for tea and sympathy, is to late.


I beg to differ!


----------



## Pawscrossed

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes it's political, why didn't Labour install sprinklers in every high rise during their eighteen or so years in government since this tower block was built? There is no single party, let alone single politician, responsible. A £5,000 saving on a £10,000,000 refurbishment doesn't sound like a cost cutting exercise, more incompetence from whoever project managed it. But let's wait and see.
> 
> Political point scoring on a tragedy is frankly pathetic and very unhelpful to the survivors, victims and their families.


This block did have them. They were removed along with the fire escape under the refurbishement. And as someone who now has two close connections, yes politics matter. I am in London helping because debating on this forums achieves nothing, least of all with die hard right wingers, and believe me, politics matters so much. It has mattered an awful lot more since austerity measures and cost cutting was brought in by the Conservative party under the previous councillor for this area who was... Tory. It has been confirmed that KCTOC ran out of money for the fire escape during the refurb so yes I agree poorly handled but for many years under the collation and the last 7. Of that, here, there's talk of little else.

May is apparently devastated according to The Telegraph. That word doesn't even cover the grief I've seen here.


----------



## rona

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...s-on-housing-scrutiny-committee-a3566661.html
Ms Dent Coad, below, has accused Tory-led Kensington and Chelsea council of failures that led to the blaze, claiming "poor-quality materials and construction standards have played a part in this hideous and unforgivable event".

But as a councillor she was on Kensington and Chelsea's housing scrutiny committee, which oversees "community safety issues", until May 2014.

A 2014/15 report, in which she is named, says the committee scrutinised work on Grenfell Tower.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> will be spending some time checking this out ;


Sadiq Khan actually said that they didn't need any more cuts, however he also said they were coping with present funding 
https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/overall-the-service-has-coped-well-with-cuts


----------



## Pawscrossed

DT said:


> Tbh I cant workout why. TM is getting all the flack, she has only been PM for a year. Understand why this has become political but please if you are going to start blaming and calling for sackings you need to be blaming and sacking the right people,and to do that you need to look back 10 years in government


It is too little. Firefights and emergency crews have said here that they get support. They have counsellors but residents here have none. But May went to see the services first. Of the two, survivors needed her more, to show they were, after years of neglect, and please do not forget it was people like my godson, his g/f and a good friend of mine who were three of oh so many warning about this repeatedly to KCTOC to the point that I, living some 60 miles away knew about it because they spoke often. It's hurtful and her actions compounded the neglect at a time when all anyone who is devastated, angry and grieving needs the reassurance that only a PM can give. Yes, it was great that Corbyn went and this was necessary but there was no reason why May didn't, nothing plausible or remotely understandable. I am sure that today's event was carefully selected. Just going - FFS it's like renta celeb here, boosts morale, gives comfort. Moreover it shows humanity.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Pawscrossed said:


> This block did have them. They were removed along with the fire escape under the refurbishement. And as someone who now has two close connections, yes politics matter. I am in London helping because debating on this forums achieves nothing, least of all with die hard right wingers, and believe me, politics matters so much. It has mattered an awful lot more since austerity measures and cost cutting was brought in by the Conservative party under the previous councillor for this area who was... Tory. It has been confirmed that KCTOC ran out of money for the fire escape during the refurb so yes I agree poorly handled but for many years under the collation and the last 7. Of that, here, there's talk of little else.
> 
> May is apparently devastated according to The Telegraph. That word doesn't even cover the grief I've seen here.


I can't find any mention that the KCTMO ran out of money


----------



## Pawscrossed

I'm out of this thread. May I politely and respectfully suggest getting your hands dirty and finding out what you can all do practically to help. 17 pages here plus more on the GE thread... I find it a little sad to see fake news here too. Emma Coad queried the fire safety numerous times as a councillor and of course she'd be involved. She's been involved in the area politics for many years.

Speaking to those affected, getting off PF and connecting to survivors is a a wee bit more worthwhile than keyboard bashing. No donations are needed but much can be done online and in London to listen and support. Just a thought before thus hits page 18.


----------



## Pawscrossed

MiffyMoo said:


> I can't find any mention that the KCTMO ran out of money


Yes there was. It's a email to someone or another and I believe mentioned on the Guardian and it's a real thing. Forgive my laziness but seeking it out to entertain PF isn't a priority but yes it exists. If I get time I'll locate it, if I remember


----------



## Pawscrossed

MiffyMoo said:


> I can't find any mention that the KCTMO ran out of money


I thought it was an email to David Collins, ex GRA. Or the chap who is the blogger who was threatened with legal action of his site which records all his correspondence with KOTC. I think - there has been so much news and forgive my tone. Its not directed at you.

It's not a good week and somewhat frustrating to see so many pages of people here going round in circles when here, people need a friend, a hug and empathy.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Pawscrossed said:


> I thought it was an email to David Collins, ex GRA. Or the chap who is the blogger who was threatened with legal action of his site which records all his correspondence with KOTC. I think - there has been so much news and forgive my tone. Its not directed at you.
> 
> It's not a good week and somewhat frustrating to see so many pages of people here going round in circles when here, people need a friend, a hug and empathy.


I can totally understand how exhausted and emotional you are.


----------



## Elles

Pawscrossed said:


> This block did have them. They were removed along with the fire escape under the refurbishement. And as someone who now has two close connections, yes politics matter. I am in London helping because debating on this forums achieves nothing, least of all with die hard right wingers, and believe me, politics matters so much. It has mattered an awful lot more since austerity measures and cost cutting was brought in by the Conservative party under the previous councillor for this area who was... Tory. It has been confirmed that KCTOC ran out of money for the fire escape during the refurb so yes I agree poorly handled but for many years under the collation and the last 7. Of that, here, there's talk of little else.
> 
> May is apparently devastated according to The Telegraph. That word doesn't even cover the grief I've seen here.


Sorry, I didn't read this thread before I posted on the GE one. I felt that politics as such shouldn't be on this one, but that we need to be pressing the government to put more help on the ground (is there any yet?) and worrying about people still living in these blocks.  I'm so sorry for the grief and suffering there is in the aftermath and that not more is being done. All I can do from Devon is write to my MP, sign petitions and offer what little money I can to the agencies collecting for those affected. The government and councils we voted in should be stepping up to the plate. *virtual hugs*


----------



## Dr Pepper

Pawscrossed said:


> This block did have them. They were removed along with the fire escape under the refurbishement. And as someone who now has two close connections, yes politics matter. I am in London helping because debating on this forums achieves nothing, least of all with die hard right wingers, and believe me, politics matters so much. It has mattered an awful lot more since austerity measures and cost cutting was brought in by the Conservative party under the previous councillor for this area who was... Tory. It has been confirmed that KCTOC ran out of money for the fire escape during the refurb so yes I agree poorly handled but for many years under the collation and the last 7. Of that, here, there's talk of little else.
> 
> May is apparently devastated according to The Telegraph. That word doesn't even cover the grief I've seen here.


Yes, debating on this forum matters nought. Surprised you've got the time do so though....


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> will be spending some time checking this out ;


1. That's the board member structure. KCTMO also manages all the KC LA council homes on behalf of the council in it's second capacity as an arms-length management organisation, and ANY named tenant or leaseholder of any of those Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea properties can apply for membership, not just Tower residents.

2. Does this refer to the Council or the MP? The Council is Conservative and has been since it was first elected as a Council in 1964. The MP has also always been Conservative until the GE of 2017 the other week.

3. The Greater London Council hasn't existed since 1986. If they mean the GLA, that organisation has a rather different structure and currently Labour has 12 assembly members, the Conservatives 8, the Greens and UKIP 2 each, and the Lib Dems 1. You need 13 seats for an overall majority. The last election was in 2016, and I believe Labour increased their seat count in the 2016 elections, which was also when Sadiq Khan took over from Boris Johnson.

4. And? Yes, she was formerly a council-appointed board member from 2008 to October 2012. Grenfell Tower was only proposed for refurbishment at some point in 2012 I think, and wasn't actually refurbished until 2014/2015. Plus we don't know any of what she did in that role, so it may be good or bad. More information required, basically.

5. If the flats are actually the self-contained, fire resistant boxes they are SUPPOSED to be and therefore capable of restricting a fire to within itself for around half an hour as expected, it is actually not unreasonable advice for all except those in the immediately affected area to stay put. Trust me, getting a few hundred people evacuated from a two storey office block with at least four external fire escapes and a main staircase as escape routes takes several minutes in a fire drill, and the more floors you get, the more logjams you get on the stairs/escapes. And these are drills, with no smoke or panic. Try evacuating a 23 storey residential block with only one set of stairs every time a smoke detector goes off, and you're asking for lots of people waiting in queues on stairs holding open fire doors, which in a real fire would present a marvellous chimney effect for smoke and fire to rise up. It only takes a few people to panic (even in a false alarm) or go down with smoke inhalation, and you have a whole lot of people stuck in the stairwell. Plus of course, if you have hundreds of people queuing to get OUT of the building, the Fire Brigade can't get IN up the only staircase. The problem in this case appears to be that the fire spread very, very quickly, and possibly up the outside of the building where there was no chance of containing it, thereby rendering any normal expectations and responses void.

6 and 7. A change in contractor may or may not be relevant, and if sprinklers were required by law as part of a refurbishment, that wouldn't have been an issue.

8, 9, 10. Basically one point split into three. I'm guessing the main point is that tenants having a mechanism for changing the building management provider and having a say in how their buildings are run is a bad thing?

11. I thought he said they were _coping_ but couldn't handle any more cuts...

12. Hang on, isn't this Point 4 again?


----------



## rona

Pawscrossed said:


> It's not a good week and somewhat frustrating to see so many pages of people here going round in circles when here, people need a friend, a hug and empathy.


Surely what they really need is for someone to stop using them as photo opportunities and to get on and get them housing, get the dead identified and generally help them to go forward with their lives?

Empathy and hugs must run pretty thin when you've nowhere to live


----------



## noushka05

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes it's political, why didn't Labour install sprinklers in every high rise during their eighteen or so years in government since this tower block was built? There is no single party, let alone single politician, responsible. A £5,000 saving on a £10,000,000 refurbishment doesn't sound like a cost cutting exercise, more incompetence from whoever project managed it. But let's wait and see.
> 
> Political point scoring on a tragedy is frankly pathetic and very unhelpful to the survivors, victims and their families.


If you think ordinary peoples lives matter more then profit then you really need to look closer at the ideology of the government you support. Those regulations they keep talking about ripping up are what protect us from corporate greed.

I don't care what political persuasion the people who are responsible for this tragedy, I agree with labour David Lammy, they must be held to account.










If you could be bothered to watch the videos you would know the survivors the & the fire service are saying the same.












MiffyMoo said:


> Since when did I suggest sweeping it under the carpet? I asked that people stop demanding they know the facts and the Government must topple right now. Nobody knows the facts, as they still haven't finished getting the bodies out, let alone started the investigation. And I do t mean the inquest, I mean the investigation by the professionals who have trained for years for exactly this. Once their report has. One out then it's time to turn the spotlight on the failures and what led to the eventual dreadful outcome.
> 
> Watching YouTube videos does not make you an expert, but the constant shrieking and marching muddies the waters and makes the jobs of the emergency services that much more difficult


Everything else aside, the tories getting into bed with DUP & jeopardising peace in NI should be enough to enrage most people I would have thought Its time stop selfishly putting their party's interests before the things that matter.

'Constant shrieking & marching'? Wow how quickly sympathy is lost. People lost their lives in the most horrific way imaginable. They have every right to demand answers.








MiffyMoo said:


> How is that helping the victims? It's not. May had absolutely nothing to do with this. Yes, she was, yet again, shite at the public side of her job, but I'm pretty sure that's not a good enough reason to sack her.


Why don't you find out what actual victims are saying? Oh but you'd have to watch the videos to find out :/

Surely you know the ideology of the tory party? The tories have been in power for 7 years they have presided over massive cuts & deregulation - this is their ideology! A small state & unhindered capitalism. Mays voting history speaks volumes as do her policies. -http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-3366637/Theresa-May-announces-major-shake-fire-service.html The tories must take their share of the blame & if any labour politicians have played any part in this then so must they. Those people deserve justice, not some whitewash.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> will be spending some time checking this out ;





rona said:


> http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...s-on-housing-scrutiny-committee-a3566661.html
> Ms Dent Coad, below, has accused Tory-led Kensington and Chelsea council of failures that led to the blaze, claiming "poor-quality materials and construction standards have played a part in this hideous and unforgivable event".
> 
> But as a councillor she was on Kensington and Chelsea's housing scrutiny committee, which oversees "community safety issues", until May 2014.
> 
> A 2014/15 report, in which she is named, says the committee scrutinised work on Grenfell Tower.


Disgusting people are trying to defect the blame on to someone who tried to help the residents. Emma Dent Coad stood on the committee on the side of the residents. It appears he has been fighting to help them for years. Her blog is on the Grenfell Action Group blog - https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/ I would sue for defamation of character if I were her.


----------



## noushka05

Sorry if anyone has already shared this moving interview of Labours David Lammy who lost a friend in the Grenfell fire.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Dr Pepper said:


> Yes, debating on this forum matters nought. Surprised you've got the time do so though....


I began my day at 5am and sat down last night to check in with folk I know, my family. I saw some messages on here. So yes there is a little time. Not much but some.



rona said:


> Surely what they really need is for someone to stop using them as photo opportunities and to get on and get them housing, get the dead identified and generally help them to go forward with their lives?
> 
> Empathy and hugs must run pretty thin when you've nowhere to live


I am listing voluntary things, housing, identification of the dead are professional services. 'Generally helping them to go,forward with their lives' is also listening, supporting.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> If you think ordinary peoples lives matter more then profit then you really need to look closer at the ideology of the government you support. Those regulations they keep talking about ripping up are what protect us from corporate greed.
> 
> I don't care what political persuasion the people who are responsible for this tragedy, I agree with labour David Lammy, they must be held to account.
> 
> View attachment 315114
> 
> 
> If you could be bothered to watch the videos you would know the survivors the & the fire service are saying the same.
> 
> View attachment 315039
> 
> 
> Everything else aside, the tories getting into bed with DUP & jeopardising peace in NI should be enough to enrage most people I would have thought Its time stop selfishly putting their party's interests before the things that matter.
> 
> 'Constant shrieking & marching'? Wow how quickly sympathy is lost. People lost their lives in the most horrific way imaginable. They have every right to demand answers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you find out what actual victims are saying? Oh but you'd have to watch the videos to find out :/
> 
> Surely you know the ideology of the tory party? The tories have been in power for 7 years they have presided over massive cuts & deregulation - this is their ideology! A small state & unhindered capitalism. Mays voting history speaks volumes as do her policies. -http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-3366637/Theresa-May-announces-major-shake-fire-service.html The tories must take their share of the blame & if any labour politicians have played any part in this then so must they. Those people deserve justice, not some whitewash.


You are, yet again, ignoring what I'm saying. I'm saying, stop assuming you know the results, and let's wait for the investigation. It is hugely complex and there are many different agencies and individuals involved in all of the decisions around all high rise buildings and this disaster.

The shrieking was specifically aimed at the protesters who turned the March on Kensington town hall into an opportunity to demand a change of government. That is extremely unhelpful to the victims. What they need now is help from the different agencies, not sound bites and your beloved Messiah stealing the show so he can have a photo op with, errr, a disgraced councillor


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> You are, yet again, ignoring what I'm saying. I'm saying, stop assuming you know the results, and let's wait for the investigation. It is hugely complex and there are many different agencies and individuals involved in all of the decisions around all high rise buildings and this disaster.
> 
> The shrieking was specifically aimed at the protesters who turned the March on Kensington town hall into an opportunity to demand a change of government. That is extremely unhelpful to the victims. What they need now is help from the different agencies, not sound bites and your beloved Messiah stealing the show so he can have a photo op with, errr, a disgraced councillor


Many of those 'shreiking' _were _residents Don't you think they want people to support them?

Which disgraced councillor are you talking about?


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Many of those 'shreiking' _were _residents Don't you think they want people to support them?
> 
> Which disgraced councillor are you talking about?


I doubt very much the victims were able to cobble together placards, and sidelining the peaceful march to not so peaceful for their own agenda is not at all helpful.

It's further up in the thread, can't remember his name. Was booted out for anti semitism (shocker)


----------



## Pawscrossed

MiffyMoo said:


> You are, yet again, ignoring what I'm saying. I'm saying, stop assuming you know the results, and let's wait for the investigation. It is hugely complex and there are many different agencies and individuals involved in all of the decisions around all high rise buildings and this disaster.
> 
> The shrieking was specifically aimed at the protesters who turned the March on Kensington town hall into an opportunity to demand a change of government. That is extremely unhelpful to the victims. What they need now is help from the different agencies, not sound bites and your beloved Messiah stealing the show so he can have a photo op with, errr, a disgraced councillor


I agree with the need to wait and involving agencies. It feels very uncoordinated but that's is to be expected in the early days but it is almost a week and little official help. But the second paragraph isn't correct. The majority who marched _are_ residents and families of the victims. With a lot of support of course. And I am no huge fan of Jeremy Corbyn but his appearance was needed when he arrived and what coverage I've seen did not represent the entire time he was here which was a long time. But it should have been May. Emma Coad isn't solely (if at all) culpable, are you not then also making assumptions that she is guilty of something before the investigation yourself?


----------



## Pawscrossed

MiffyMoo said:


> I doubt very much the victims were able to cobble together placards, and sidelining the peaceful march to not so peaceful for their own agenda is not at all helpful.
> 
> It's further up in the thread, can't remember his name. Was booted out for anti semitism (shocker)


apologies I thought you meant Emma Coad.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Pawscrossed said:


> I agree with the need to wait and involving agencies. It feels very uncoordinated but that's is to be expected in the early days but it is almost a week and little official help. But the second paragraph isn't correct. The majority who marched _are_ residents and families of the victims. With a lot of support of course. And I am no huge fan of Jeremy Corbyn but his appearance was needed when he arrived and what coverage I've seen did not represent the entire time he was here which was a long time. But it should have been May. Emma Coad isn't solely (if at all) culpable, are you not then also making assumptions that she is guilty of something before the investigation yourself?


I said across many people and agencies, not Emma Coad. At no point would I ever consider that only one person is responsible; as I said it's across many people, agencies and governments. Which is why it stuns me that so many are putting the blame squarely at TMs feet. Unhelpful and incorrect


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> I doubt very much the victims were able to cobble together placards, and sidelining the peaceful march to not so peaceful for their own agenda is not at all helpful.
> 
> It's further up in the thread, can't remember his name. Was booted out for anti semitism (shocker)


Well that just shows how much you know then. And it was a peaceful march Some people actually believe in social justice & standing up for people like those who lived in Grenfell tower is their agenda. I wish I could have been there.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Well that just shows how much you know then. And it was a peaceful march Some people actually believe in social justice & standing up for people like those who lived in Grenfell tower is their agenda. I wish I could have been there.


I'm sure you do. A lot of people there had no interest in social justice


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> I said across many people and agencies, not Emma Coad. At no point would I ever consider that only one person is responsible; as I said it's across many people, agencies and governments. Which is why it stuns me that so many are putting the blame squarely at TMs feet. Unhelpful and incorrect


How do you feel about 'TM' presiding over massive cuts in our emergency services? How do you feel about this governments ideology of deregulation? How do you feel about this governments attack on the poorest with their austerity?


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm sure you do. A lot of people there had no interest in social justice


Proof please.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> How do you feel about 'TM' presiding over massive cuts in our emergency services? How do you feel about this governments ideology of deregulation? How do you feel about this governments attack on the poorest with their austerity?


When did she preside over massive cuts? She has only been PM for a year, but seems to have engineered an awful lot, in your eyes. Not just this government who deregulated. We have already discussed the poorest and I feel that your party is more anti the poorest with the massive tax hikes in their manifesto, which will increase the price of goods, yet won't increase the personal allowance. But now we're getting OT


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Proof please.


Oh your usual go to


----------



## MiffyMoo

Fraser gets it right again

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/yes-grenfell-scandal-no-theresa-may-not-blood-hands/


----------



## kimthecat

@MiffyMoo You have to subscribe to read it , a pop up thing come s up which covers the page .


----------



## MollySmith

I don't think this has been shared widely and certainly worth a few minutes of your time, it's from a resident who made it out. I don't think you can get a more honest response than this.





This is the blog that he refers to that Kensington and Chelsea wanted to close down through legal action.
https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> @MiffyMoo You have to subscribe to read it , a pop up thing come s up which covers the page .


Oh that's strange, I'm definitely not subscribed (can't afford luxuries like that!)


----------



## Elles

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh that's strange, I'm definitely not subscribed (can't afford luxuries like that!)


You get so many free, then have to subscribe. The same guy posted here

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ragedy-raises-raw-political-questions-tories/

It's the same though, if you've read your quota you then have to pay to see more. They don't get enough money from ads and pop ups it's seems.


----------



## Calvine

MiffyMoo said:


> Unhelpful and incorrect


It would have happened whoever was in No 10...


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> You get so many free, then have to subscribe. The same guy posted here
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ragedy-raises-raw-political-questions-tories/
> 
> It's the same though, if you've read your quota you then have to pay to see more. They don't get enough money from ads and pop ups it's seems.


Ahh, that makes sense


----------



## Dr Pepper

Calvine said:


> It would have happened whoever was in No 10...


What nonsense, obviously everything is Mrs May's fault because she's been PM for what, nine months?

And if Mr Corbyn had won the election everything would still be Mrs May's fault for the entire term of his premiership because that's just how it is.

I'm really surprised you haven't grasped this simple concept yet


----------



## Guest

My heart sank when going through this thread and watching some of the links. Also I feel is it my place at all even to write here, as this is nothing in comparison what those involved are feeling. But I agree what @Pawscrossed says and this is my way of trying to help to ensure things just have to change now in UK. This should have never happeneded in UK in 2017 and it must happen never gain.



Pawscrossed said:


> My godson had found his girlfriend very badly injured and her prognosis isn't good. If she pulls through her injuries are life changing. This is devastating and it makes me so angry too because it was preventable and those in charge knew. Health and safety can drive us mad, EU rules cause protest but this is a sorrowful and without question horrific example of why it matters. I'm sorry to bring politics in but yes it really matters and we have to talk about it (honestly because fake news has no place here) to raise awareness and make those accountable learn from it so it never ever happens again.


I´m so sorry for your godson´s girlfriend, and I hope she will get all the support she needs in the years to come from the government. It still will never compensate what she has gone through, of course.



kimthecat said:


> Can you prove or show a direct link between the government cut backs and the fire in a building that had 9 or 10 million spent on it ?


Direct links btw cuts backs and the fire? This is how I see it. Had their been a firm policy about not allowing anybody to build death traps like this, this would have never happened. That starts with having a strict laws to build safe houses, and enough personnel to make sure the law is followed. It means also having enough firemen to stop accidents becoming disasters. It is quite simple really.



Honeys mum said:


> Gavin Barwell: Theresa May's new chief of staff faces questions over delayed tower block fire safety review | The Independent
> Yes, and he is the one T.May appointed him her new chief of staff, replacing the ones who resigned after the election results.


That is a more than a dsgrace, it is a crime. In most countries he would have to resign and the first thing the successor would do, is to make sure you will have a proper fire safety laws, like in just about all wealthy western countries.



JANICE199 said:


> *I was watching an interview earlier and a solicitor was saying, There needs to be an inquest and NOT an inquiry into the fire. The reason was, if there is an inquiry the people will not get a say in anything, but they will if there is an inquest. **No wonder TM was so quick to say we need an inquiry. *


If I understood this correctly, the first thing May did was to water down the inquest, but instead is aiming at a cover up version of it. How dare she do that after all this? It is like she is not even trying to get to the bottom of this, in case she´ll find something she didn´t like? Lives just don´t matter at all. She should have ordered several inquiries, and some led by international investigators to make sure it will be objective. That is what is done sometimes, if the objectivity is in jeopardy, and the matter is serious enough. I really doubt if the current government will be willing to conduct a proper inquiry and change things.



Jesthar said:


> £5,000. Just £5,000 more would have bought the fire resistant version of the panels. It's £2 more per square metre. The stuff they used meets UK regulations, but is rated (and banned) in Germany as being as flammable as unprotected wood under 12mm in thickness - i.e., pretty much kindling. It's supposed to be used on small commercial buildings, not tower blocks.
> Warning for pictures and video in the link. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...on-cladding-banned-us-flammable-a7792711.html


Why are your regulations so slack? Don´t people in UK need the same protection as in other countries? That is a disgrace, as that was deliberate choice. Whoever wrote and passed this law, should be named and prosecuted.



grumpy goby said:


> The political mudslinging around this makes me sad. What we need is an OBJECTIVE review of the incident. How it happened, why it happened, why it spread, what failings there were at several levels... from the coal front (maintenance and install), design (consultants, designer and CDM review) to British and ISO standards of buildings, and finally process, procedure and regulatory impacts. Assumptions and mud slinging solves nothing. We need the Facts. They need to be assessed and scrutinised and educated, factual conclusion drawn. Then We need change... and that mean more than simply fitting some sprinklers... change on all levels.


So true. I wonder can UK officials do that anymore? Aren´t all facts just politics nowadays and they will be twisted at some point so that real change won´t happen? The attitude toward facts has not been exactly positive lately, has it. I´m afraid when the first emotional reactions fade away, all this will be watered down and in the end only some minor changes will be made.

When I checked the links posted here, I was so appalled by how this slack attitude toward people´s safety could have been happening year after year? It makes me wonder what other tragedies are just waiting to happen? Surely this was the last wake up call and all safety issues will be changed so that you will have safe building regulations.


----------



## JANICE199

*This is beyond belief. If true, i find it sickening :Arghh There are 2 videos in the link*

*http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...vivors-volunteer_uk_5946510fe4b06bb7d273ba5f?*


----------



## kimthecat

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh that's strange, I'm definitely not subscribed (can't afford luxuries like that!)


 I dont have an ad blocker , maybe its to do with that .


----------



## Elles

JANICE199 said:


> *This is beyond belief. If true, i find it sickening :Arghh There are 2 videos in the link*
> 
> *http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...vivors-volunteer_uk_5946510fe4b06bb7d273ba5f?*


Isn't that why May has sent in government officials/civil servants?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40316812

I sincerely hope they do a better job. It just seems to get worse and worse.


----------



## MollySmith

There is a post I read about how we respond to disaster and that after any event, there is a review of policy but that there shouldn't be the disaster in the first place, like Hillsborough for example. Loss of life has to occur on a biblical proportion for someone to be heard. That is sh*t and it seems to be the entire lesson of this so far - platitudes and commiseration never make up for the shortcomings of the years and events that precede it.



Calvine said:


> It would have happened whoever was in No 10...





Dr Pepper said:


> What nonsense, obviously everything is Mrs May's fault because she's been PM for what, nine months?
> 
> And if Mr Corbyn had won the election everything would still be Mrs May's fault for the entire term of his premiership because that's just how it is.
> 
> I'm really surprised you haven't grasped this simple concept yet


With the £143k salary a year, the pension and half on departure (£40k in David Cameron's case I think?) and all the benefits that come with being in charge of country - which were entered into on deciding to stand for PM , one is the leader. It's her job to take the punches and how many are inflicted depends on how she responds. She fell short of the mark and who knows why - I wish I did, it might have made sense. So no, she's not personally responsible for the events (we don't know who is as @MiffyMoo rightly said earlier, let us wait on the outcome), but May is responsible for her humanity toward others. I saw little of it when others were giving so much more. As if it's seen as unprofessional to shake hands even half hugs things (I am a full hugger myself).


----------



## JANICE199

Elles said:


> Isn't that why May has sent in government officials/civil servants?
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40316812
> 
> I sincerely hope they do a better job. It just seems to get worse and worse.


*I well may be wrong, but my understanding is, this has nothing to do with the money side of things.*
*It isn't very often i get very upset with things going on in this world, but i am fuming right now.*
*God, the times i have watched adverts for help abroad, and condemned them, as far as i'm concerned they are there to make money.*
*But this is supposed to be, a country that i, along with many others love. Right now, i feel utterly ashamed of my country.*
ps. If this came across as a rant, so beit. It wasn't meant that way.


----------



## MollySmith

Elles said:


> Isn't that why May has sent in government officials/civil servants?
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40316812
> 
> I sincerely hope they do a better job. _ It just seems to get worse and worse_.


doesn't it just, I'm reading more and more terrible things each day about the history of this. It's awful, quite frightening.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Wish to know more...
ST published today it was the most combustible cladding of six tested.


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> (I am a full hugger myself).


Well TM clearly isn't, along with millions of other people...I don't think it's part of the job description TBH.


----------



## Guest

I was trying to find some information about the council and came up with these?

Councillor Nicholas Paget-Brown is the Leader of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. This is his blog, where he says how well they do in Kensington... very interesting comment about housing: https://rbkcleadersblog.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/budget-speech-2017/

"In Kensington and Chelsea, we have continued to drive economies, to protect frontline services, to manage our property portfolio as dynamically as possible and to bear down on costs. We are getting good at doing this." 
"However, we have one other opportunity to create additional housing and that is by re-engineering some of our own estates which are reaching the end of their natural life. As buildings erected in the 50's and 60's become expensive to maintain and patch up, we can do better. Our ambitions to regenerate are sincere and well-considered."

Is this referring to the burned building and he was saying that they have become expensive to maintain? Was that the attitude of the council and the reason why they just didn´t care? Hopefully I am wrong in this one, as that would be scandalous.

Compare what the Labour said about the budjet:

"the council still has obscenely high levels of reserves and has systematically and deliberately created underspends which this year render any increase in Council Tax completely unnecessary"

"Not only are we hoarding and misusing the peoples treasure but we are now misusing the land and property that has been entrusted to us."
"my colleagues will also have the opportunity to detail the failures of this council as developers. Especially in your practise of commissioning outsiders to design schemes for us and then lazily retaining them to supervise the construction itself. Simply put MM although we understand the need to develop estates and new homes, we believe that we should make more use of our own Coco and thereby avoid paying 20-25 per cent profits to private Construction companies."

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/council-and...n-leader-rbkc-labour-group-2017-budget-speech

Does this mean that the council deliberately didn´t spend all the money it could spend so many cuts were not necessary at all? And does this mean that developing (= doesn´t that mean especially building?) has been in the hands of private companies, who were not supervised and who aim only to make money for themselves? And that is why the contractor didn´t have to use proper materials, as that was even required?

This is so confusing, as your system is so different. But has anyone of the council been in public and offered help or explained, why those materials were used etc? Surely now is the time to promise that all will be taken care of in the future too, as dealing with traumas like this will last for years.


----------



## Calvine

Dr Pepper said:


> I'm really surprised you haven't grasped this simple concept yet


I'm so sorry; yes, I am slow on the uptake, I admit it now.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 315197
> 
> 
> Wish to know more...
> ST published today it was the most combustible cladding of six tested.


I was expecting that.  The cladding is too easy. The company who applied it went bust 2 years ago and I doubt there's much left to analyse.

If Philip Hammond is really trying to blame the cladding, before the fire brigade have even begun their inquest, sack him. :Rage


----------



## Honeys mum

Seems like some schools as well as highrise buildings don't have sprinklers either.

Tories watered down rules on sprinklers in schools a week after fire destroyed classrooms | Political Scrapbook


----------



## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> Well TM clearly isn't, along with millions of other people...I don't think it's part of the job description TBH.


 Dammit that's ruined all my hopes for getting into number 10.


----------



## MollySmith

This was the post I read, another that I thought stood out too
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/16/worked-kctmo-nightmares-burning-tower-blocks


----------



## raebhoop

*The God of fire certainly has it in for Mankind this week...*
https://www.rt.com/news/392821-portugal-deadly-forest-fires/


----------



## Happy Paws2

raebhoop said:


> *The God of fire certainly has it in for Mankind this week...*
> https://www.rt.com/news/392821-portugal-deadly-forest-fires/


Horrific, they didn't stand a chance.


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> Dammit that's ruined all my hopes for getting into number 10.


Maybe just put it on your CV anyway and hope you get away with it?. I wonder what BJ has on his CV?


----------



## cheekyscrip

It reads like something that might have happened in Russia....not country famous for democracy.


----------



## Elles

It looks as though he's wrong on the cladding. Not banned in the uk, but should have been and not recommended for use on buildings over 10m high. Bounces the ball back at governments who should have restricted its use in the building regs as other countries have. The contractor doesn't appear to have used banned materials, just ignored recommendations to cut costs.

Implying that it's just one contractor and they were acting illegally might reassure other tenants and authorities that it can't happen to them, which is jumping the gun.

It's recommended by the manufacturer that none flammable cladding should be used on buildings that high, but as the pe cladding used isn't actually banned for external use and as other high rise council buildings have been improved with cladding, what are the government going to do about it?

http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspec...rnal-cladding-panels-perspective-from-the-uk/


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 315249
> 
> 
> It reads like something that might have happened in Russia....not country famous for democracy.


This is what I was thinking too, that only in corrupt or poor (and usually poverty and corruption go hand in hand) things like this happen. British deserve so much better than this. For some reason I can´t help following all the news I find on line about this and every time I read about another negligence I feel both sad and angry. And I´m not even British. Maybe I feel this way, because I`m living with a Britt, or have lived there once (and really loved it) or maybe just that none of this needn´t to have happened. If anyone in charge would have had more respect for human life, this could have been prevented this. Government and law makers, council, safety inspectors or contractor - all had lots of time and a chance to do it, but no one cared enough to do what they should have done.


----------



## sesmo

Elles said:


> You get so many free, then have to subscribe. The same guy posted here
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ragedy-raises-raw-political-questions-tories/
> 
> It's the same though, if you've read your quota you then have to pay to see more. They don't get enough money from ads and pop ups it's seems.


In case anyone else has the same problem, if you right click on the link and open it in a private tab/window you'll be able to read it. Works on my PC when running Firefox. Thought it might be handy for people.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Dr Pepper said:


> What nonsense, obviously everything is Mrs May's fault because she's been PM for what, nine months?
> 
> And if Mr Corbyn had won the election everything would still be Mrs May's fault for the entire term of his premiership because that's just how it is.
> 
> I'm really surprised you haven't grasped this simple concept yet


----------



## MiffyMoo

raebhoop said:


> *The God of fire certainly has it in for Mankind this week...*
> https://www.rt.com/news/392821-portugal-deadly-forest-fires/


Have Corbyn and McDonnell found a way to blame this on TM yet? I'm waiting for photos of the caring one hugging Portuguese survivors


----------



## Elles

MiffyMoo said:


> View attachment 315323


Of course she is. It's too hot. People in the uk don't have air con like they do in Europe. The government should have put air con in all social housing. People will collapse from the heat and our underfunded NHS will not cope. I'm sure there will be other problems relating to the hot weather.

Give it a few days and it will all be May's fault.


----------



## Elles

MiffyMoo said:


> Have Corbyn and McDonnell found a way to blame this on TM yet? I'm waiting for photos of the caring one hugging Portuguese survivors


It'll be the fault of neoliberalism if not May directly.

A friend was in Portugal with her friends last week. They've been posting pictures of the encroaching fire and smoke and although aren't evacuated yet are very worried and frightened.


----------



## Elles

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...r-tragedy-public-inquiry-inquest-fire-victims

Inquest vs inquiry from a solicitor who has represented families in other tragedies. It would appear that the public inquiry is a better way forward, so long as it's approached properly.


----------



## Honeys mum

Just heard on BBC that the total know to have lost their lives is now 79, and could still rise.
I do hope not.
Thinking of all those and their families.


----------



## Jesthar

MrsZee said:


> Direct links btw cuts backs and the fire? This is how I see it. Had their been a firm policy about not allowing anybody to build death traps like this, this would have never happened. That starts with having a strict laws to build safe houses, and enough personnel to make sure the law is followed. It means also having enough firemen to stop accidents becoming disasters. It is quite simple really.


The building probably _wasn't_ a death trap back when it was built. It appears to have taken the refurbishment to achieve that, but as the decision was taken at government level that the planning regulations and safety standards don't have to be retroactively applied to refubishing older structures (because, cost), even when there are no major structural obastacles to doing so, it would appear the refurbishment met the necessary legal standards the the letter of the law (if not the _spirit_ of the law).



MrsZee said:


> Why are your regulations so slack? Don´t people in UK need the same protection as in other countries? That is a disgrace, as that was deliberate choice. Whoever wrote and passed this law, should be named and prosecuted.


That's a good question, and a big one, with many facets to answer. However, if we're going to be simplistic about it, then the biggest reason is still "Because: Cost" Health and Safety is regarded by a significant proportion of big business as just another burden of administration that is a hindrance to profit, not as an essential part of duty of care to employees and the public. And those businesses have a large influence on the Government. So recent years have seen an increasing 'bonfire of regulations', and a drive towards a state of affairs where for every one new regulation that is enacted, at least two more must be modified or scrapped to mean the net overall impact on business costs less money. This article explains it better than I can:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...h-safety-theresa-may-government-a7793921.html

It's also worth noting that one of the biggest pro-Brexit arguments has been "We can ditch the red tape and regulations the EU imposes on us that lower profits by making us inefficient and uncompetitive" - which sounds good at first. But calling rules that protect consumers, workers and the environment "red tape" is an old tactic of big corporations, and they are generally talking about things like:

- The Working Time directive, which guarantees employment terms such as a maximum 48-hour week and four weeks of paid holiday per year, as well as rules on hours of rest for shift workers. Detractors claim that it prevents businesses from working 'efficiently' (I think we can guess what that means in their terms). That individual workers can choose to opt out of this is rarely mentioned, oddly.

- Endangered species regulations, which affect construction projects as you aren't allowed to just destroy their habitat.

- Green energy, anti-pollution regulations and environmental protections in general., as not being allowed to pollute costs money.

- Consumer rights - why should you have to compensate your customers when you mess up?

- Energy efficiency rules, such as the ban on incandescent light bulbs and limiting of vacuum cleaner power (hardly a biggie, but they appeal to the public and help get their support)

Now, I'm not against cutting/consolidation regulation in areas where it is overly complicated and it improves, rather than lessens protections (oddly enough, a lot of EU regs have done just that!). But Health and Safety comes in for an awful lot of flack for being nit picking, overbearing and expensive to implement and - until the point something like Grenfell happens. Then, all of a sudden, H&S regs are in everyone's interests - until they cost too much money again...



MrsZee said:


> When I checked the links posted here, I was so appalled by how this slack attitude toward people´s safety could have been happening year after year? It makes me wonder what other tragedies are just waiting to happen? Surely this was the last wake up call and all safety issues will be changed so that you will have safe building regulations.


You'd hope so. Chances are they'll find something else to blame, though - they've already started trying to shift the blame onto the residents for not wanting the 'disruption' that installing sprinkers and renewing the fire insulation between floors would have caused, and that will probably be just the start. Anything other than admit that regulation is a good thing, I suspect.

What, cynical, moi?


----------



## MollySmith

Jesthar said:


> The building probably _wasn't_ a death trap back when it was built. It appears to have taken the refurbishment to achieve that, but as the decision was taken at government level that the planning regulations and safety standards don't have to be retroactively applied to refubishing older structures (because, cost), even when there are no major structural obastacles to doing so, it would appear the refurbishment met the necessary legal standards the the letter of the law (if not the _spirit_ of the law).
> 
> That's a good question, and a big one, with many facets to answer. However, if we're going to be simplistic about it, then the biggest reason is still "Because: Cost" Health and Safety is regarded by a significant proportion of big business as just another burden of administration that is a hindrance to profit, not as an essential part of duty of care to employees and the public. And those businesses have a large influence on the Government. So recent years have seen an increasing 'bonfire of regulations', and a drive towards a state of affairs where for every one new regulation that is enacted, at least two more must be modified or scrapped to mean the net overall impact on business costs less money. This article explains it better than I can:
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...h-safety-theresa-may-government-a7793921.html
> 
> It's also worth noting that one of the biggest pro-Brexit arguments has been "We can ditch the red tape and regulations the EU imposes on us that lower profits by making us inefficient and uncompetitive" - which sounds good at first. But calling rules that protect consumers, workers and the environment "red tape" is an old tactic of big corporations, and they are generally talking about things like:
> 
> - The Working Time directive, which guarantees employment terms such as a maximum 48-hour week and four weeks of paid holiday per year, as well as rules on hours of rest for shift workers. Detractors claim that it prevents businesses from working 'efficiently' (I think we can guess what that means in their terms). That individual workers can choose to opt out of this is rarely mentioned, oddly.
> 
> - Endangered species regulations, which affect construction projects as you aren't allowed to just destroy their habitat.
> 
> - Green energy, anti-pollution regulations and environmental protections in general., as not being allowed to pollute costs money.
> 
> - Consumer rights - why should you have to compensate your customers when you mess up?
> 
> - Energy efficiency rules, such as the ban on incandescent light bulbs and limiting of vacuum cleaner power (hardly a biggie, but they appeal to the public and help get their support)
> 
> Now, I'm not against cutting/consolidation regulation in areas where it is overly complicated and it improves, rather than lessens protections (oddly enough, a lot of EU regs have done just that!). But Health and Safety comes in for an awful lot of flack for being nit picking, overbearing and expensive to implement and - until the point something like Grenfell happens. Then, all of a sudden, H&S regs are in everyone's interests - until they cost too much money again...
> 
> You'd hope so. Chances are they'll find something else to blame, though - they've already started trying to shift the blame onto the residents for not wanting the 'disruption' that installing sprinkers and renewing the fire insulation between floors would have caused, and that will probably be just the start. Anything other than admit that regulation is a good thing, I suspect.
> 
> What, cynical, moi?


I wanted to say that I agree with what you've said completely. Well said and virtual rep.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> When did she preside over massive cuts? She has only been PM for a year, but seems to have engineered an awful lot, in your eyes. Not just this government who deregulated. We have already discussed the poorest and I feel that your party is more anti the poorest with the massive tax hikes in their manifesto, which will increase the price of goods, yet won't increase the personal allowance. But now we're getting OT


I'm shocked you don't know about the cuts or the devastating impact neoliberalism & its austerity is having on the most vulnerable in society.

Cuts to fire service - http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/tle-pick/revealed-privatisation-cuts-planned-uk-fire-brigade/05/06/

Cuts to police - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ts-margaret-thatcher-budgets?CMP=share_btn_tw

Cuts to NHS - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ne-london-school-hygiene-martin-a7585001.html

Public health, social care, health & safety - all targets of tory cuts. Austerity kills.

The labour party is more anti poor? lol No doubt its more anti-environment than the tories in your opinion too. We may have discussed it but I certainly didn't agree because its a complete fallacy. The tories are the party of deregulation but of course new labour aren't without blame (and again this is why people voted Corbyn because they do not want tory light). But its like the Trump supporters who believe the Republicans are better for the poor & ordinary people than the Democrats - its simply not true. The Republicans & tories share pretty much of the same ideology, they are both the political arm for big business.

Austerity is a political choice to transfer public money into private pockets, it destroys lives , it destroys public services, it destroys the living world. We know its a con, Corbyn offers a real alternative. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/jun/03/the-big-issue-labour-manifesto-what-economy-needs That's why people with a social conscience (with an environmental conscience) are celebrating. We have had enough of 30 years of destructive neoliberal ideology - we want a fairer society along with a habitable environment for future generations.

Surprisingly its Robert Peston of all people who nails it.



























We want a safer society where peoples lives matter more than profit. Don't you feel the same MM?

How does these make you feel? because tory mentality terrifies the life out of me.

*Britain could cut environmental and safety standards 'a very long way' after brexit, Tory MP Jacob Rees Mogg says*. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html


----------



## Calvine

Even without the suspect cladding, surely places in the seventies had sprinklers (especially those so tall that fire service hoses could not reach the top)?


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> Even without the suspect cladding, surely places in the seventies had sprinklers (especially those so tall that fire service hoses could not reach the top)?


More likely to be wet and dry risers in that era, I'd have thought. I may be wrong.


----------



## rona

Some of the heroes
.http://extra.ie/news/extraordinary/canine-search-victims-grenfell-tower


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Some of the heroes
> .http://extra.ie/news/extraordinary/canine-search-victims-grenfell-tower


They do a wonderful job, I saw them getting a GSD ready to go in yesterday, what would we do without these brave dogs.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Panorama: Right now! BBC One.
Residents predicted disaster. Fire safety experts warned since fire of 2009.
Government promised. Ignored.

Ignored.
Brexit took precedence and many other issues left.
Left before even Brexit was an issue.Since 2009 it was obvious that renovated tower blocks are not safe.
The cladding used is not safe.

The small kitchen fire was actually put out in Grenfell. If no cladding building would have been safe.
It was known the material used was banned in other countries for that very reason: Flammable.


Morning after disaster: Volunteers , not army, no counselling for the victims, no officials?


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> Panorama: Right now! BBC One.
> Residents predicted disaster. Fire safety experts warned since fire of 2009.
> Government promised. Ignored.
> 
> Ignored.
> Brexit took precedence and many other issues left.
> Left before even Brexit was an issue.


Sadly the more we learn about this terrible _preventable_ disaster we see how these people have been let down by subsequent governments 

(Not sure how brexit is relevant in this discussion tho!).


----------



## cheekyscrip

stuaz said:


> Sadly the more we learn about this terrible _preventable_ disaster we see how these people have been let down by subsequent governments
> 
> (Not sure how brexit is relevant in this discussion tho!).


In The Sunday Times it was mentioned that officials complained about cancelled fire safety meetings and reviews, " because they had to concentrate on Brexit".
I am afraid many issues got swept under the carpet because Brexit is given precedence.

Our attention is in Brexit, press etc...other also vitally important issues are put on back burner...
The most important is that since 2009 fire that caused six deaths it was obvious that the refurbished towers are not safe.

That cladding of that type was forbidden in other countries.

Changes in regulations meant that this cheaper materials would no be used any more.
Ignoring the changes, not answering - while refurbishment went on was cost cutting.

None of those in charge live in those buildings I presume?


----------



## Elles

stuaz said:


> Sadly the more we learn about this terrible _preventable_ disaster we see how these people have been let down by subsequent governments
> 
> (Not sure how brexit is relevant in this discussion tho!).


There will be more failings coming out in the wash I expect. Unless the wash is white.

I'm not sure I can watch it. I've already had to pull over in my car and lost sleep over it. I feel guilty, because I wasn't directly involved and feel that all of the public including me, should be moved to whatever action we can, not turning over our TVs. 

I hope they're looking at other tower blocks, not just looking at what happened, but also at what might still happen.


----------



## stuaz

cheekyscrip said:


> In The Sunday Times it was mentioned that officials complained about cancelled fire safety meetings and reviews, " because they had to concentrate on Brexit".
> I am afraid many issues got swept under the carpet because Brexit is given precedence.
> 
> Our attention is in Brexit, press etc...other also vitally important issues are put on back burner...
> The most important is that since 2009 fire that caused six deaths it was obvious that the refurbished towers are not safe.
> 
> That cladding of that type was forbidden in other countries.
> 
> Changes in regulations meant that this cheaper materials would no be used any more.
> Ignoring the changes, not answering - while refurbishment went on was cost cutting.
> 
> None of those in charge live in those buildings I presume?


But the refurbishment started before Brexit didn't it? So I think the comment about meetings being cancelled due to Brexit is likely just the press stirring what is already quite an emotive subject.

What we are seeing here is a monumentous catalgoue of failings and people have paid the ultimate price with there lives and I really hope people are brought to justice, but linking it to brexit? Come on Cheeky


----------



## stuaz

Elles said:


> There will be more failings coming out in the wash I expect. Unless the wash is white.
> 
> I'm not sure I can watch it. I've already had to pull over in my car and lost sleep over it. I feel guilty, because I wasn't directly involved and feel that all of the public including me, should be moved to whatever action we can, not turning over our TVs.
> 
> I hope they're looking at other tower blocks, not just looking at what happened, but also at what might still happen.


I understand that this tower is one of a few that has had refurbishments recently. One of the offices the company I work for, is a 16 story office block so not as tall as the apartment building. I don't work in that office myself but visit it once a week and we have reviewed our fire safety and evacuation methods. I hope that the residential properties are subject to the same reviews after this tragedy.


----------



## Elles

stuaz said:


> But the refurbishment started before Brexit didn't it? So I think the comment about meetings being cancelled due to Brexit is likely just the press stirring what is already quite an emotive subject.
> 
> What we are seeing here is a monumentous catalgoue of failings and people have paid the ultimate price with there lives and I really hope people are brought to justice, but linking it to brexit? Come on Cheeky


I'm sure one of the politicians did actually say it. Might even have been Theresa May herself. I vaguely remember her saying that after the 2015 report, the government wrote to councils asking them to consider installing sprinklers, but that was as much as they'd done. Someone mentioned that brexit and the election had been taking their time, wish I could remember where I heard it. It wasn't an accusation, it was an admission.


----------



## raebhoop

I check this news every day and apart from the odd statement in general terms, I have yet to see an article where tenants of the other tower blocks have made comments.
Have they noticed more activity from the fire brigade or council checking their fire doors, hose connectors etc? Have they received advice through their letterbox. What's actually happening out there?


----------



## Calvine

stuaz said:


> (Not sure how brexit is relevant in this discussion tho


They'll drag it into anything at all.


----------



## 1290423

Can anyone verify this please, or is it more bullpoo

DID YOU KNOW THAT IN 2008? Jeremy Corbyn sat on the committee that voted this into law: HIGH RISE TOWER BLOCKS BUILT BEFORE 2007 DID NOT REQUIRE SPRINKER SYSTEMS.


----------



## Calvine

DT said:


> Can anyone verify this please, or is it more bullpoo
> 
> DID YOU KNOW THAT IN 2008? Jeremy Corbyn sat on the committee that voted this into law: HIGH RISE TOWER BLOCKS BUILT BEFORE 2007 DID NOT REQUIRE SPRINKER SYSTEMS.


 I have not heard that suggested, no.


----------



## Jesthar

DT said:


> Can anyone verify this please, or is it more bullpoo
> 
> DID YOU KNOW THAT IN 2008? Jeremy Corbyn sat on the committee that voted this into law: HIGH RISE TOWER BLOCKS BUILT BEFORE 2007 DID NOT REQUIRE SPRINKER SYSTEMS.


I've Googled every which way I can think, and haven't come across anything. I'm guessing if he did sit on such a committee it would have been possible for the motion to be approved by a majority even if he or others didn't support it. I did manage to find out he did sign an Early Day Motion in 2009 proposing all new build homes should have sprinklers (http://www.edms.org.uk/2008-09/1844.htm), so if I had to speculate then I'd have to conclude I don't think he'd have voted against them being retrofitted in tower blocks.


----------



## 1290423

Jesthar said:


> I've Googled every which way I can think, and haven't come across anything. I'm guessing if he did sit on such a committee it would have been possible for the motion to be approved by a majority even if he or others didn't support it. I did manage to find out he did sign an Early Day Motion in 2009 proposing all new build homes should have sprinklers (http://www.edms.org.uk/2008-09/1844.htm), so if I had to speculate then I'd have to conclude I don't think he'd have voted against them being retrofitted in tower blocks.


Thank you for taking the time to reply.


----------



## samuelsmiles

The firemen have to be the bravest of people to go up into a building on fire like that, and this is the personal story from one of the fireman who reached the 20th floor. Not too many would put their own lives at so much risk. True heroes.

*I was a firefighter at Grenfell Tower - and this is what it was really like*


----------



## raebhoop

Sheffield Council to fit sprinklers in all 24 high rise blocks....Nice to see some are taking action.

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....ems-in-all-residential-tower-blocks-1-8606872


----------



## Jesthar

samuelsmiles said:


> The firemen have to be the bravest of people to go up into a building on fire like that, and this is the personal story from one of the fireman who reached the 20th floor. Not too many would put their own lives at so much risk. True heroes.
> 
> *I was a firefighter at Grenfell Tower - and this is what it was really like*


I saw that on FB yesterday. It's a hard read, but needs to be heard. Such horrors that they willingly go through without a second thought for the sake of others...


----------



## Elles

68 luxury apartments acquired to house Grenfell residents. So now get on and install sprinklers and improve the other 4000 (I think it is) apartment blocks, before another burns down.

Clearly this was the plan when May said they'd all be rehoused in the area within 3 weeks.


----------



## Siskin

Well that is good, and so quickly as well, amazing what can be done.


----------



## Elles

Ah, they aren't luxury private flats. It's a new social housing build, that even has its own cinema. The government have put more money into it so it can finished more quickly.

How come all we hear about is how the government are running everything down, when millions has been paid to upgrade social housing and this new complex was being built?


----------



## Siskin

I did wonder how they were going to instantly find suitable accommodation for a large number of people so quickly.
Sounds rather a nice complex for everyone, do hope they enjoy living there.


----------



## Nonnie

Elles said:


> Ah, they aren't luxury private flats. It's a new social housing build, that even has its own cinema. The government have put more money into it so it can finished more quickly.
> 
> How come all we hear about is how the government are running everything down, when millions has been paid to upgrade social housing and this new complex was being built?


They are PART of a luxury build. I do believe all new builds have to have a certain percentage of social housing. May differ council to council though. Where i am, 10% have to be 'affordable' at least.

Whether or not these poor people will have access to the same services (cinema, doorman etc) remains to be see. And right now, who cares? They will have somewhere safe to live and in a relatively short space of time.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> So now get on and install sprinklers and improve the other 4000 (I think it is) apartment blocks, before another burns down.


As part of my work I get an email each morning summarising local government news and there is definitely work starting and money being put into improvements in the wake of this.


----------



## Elles

It looks like the more luxury facilities are in another building, but it is housing in a nice area and not too far from where they lived, so I hope they can settle there, be safe and rebuild their lives. 

It is being reported that other blocks will now be fitted with sprinklers. Sheffield had already done at least one and are going to do the rest and Camden have now said they will too. I for one hope that pressure is put on all councils to repair and maintain buildings, not just fit sprinklers and then forget them. It's a shame it took such a disaster to kick them into action. Onwards and upwards.


----------



## Mirandashell

I would imagine that some councils have had their phones ringing constantly with people asking about the cladding on their flats.


----------



## SusieRainbow

raebhoop said:


> Sheffield Council to fit sprinklers in all 24 high rise blocks....Nice to see some are taking action.
> 
> http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....ems-in-all-residential-tower-blocks-1-8606872


My brother lived on the top floor of a tower block in Sheffield , I could see he wouldn't have had a chance of escape in a fire.


----------



## Creativecat

Nonnie said:


> They are PART of a luxury build. I do believe all new builds have to have a certain percentage of social housing. May differ council to council though. Where i am, 10% have to be 'affordable' at least.
> 
> Whether or not these poor people will have access to the same services (cinema, doorman etc) remains to be see. And right now, who cares? They will have somewhere safe to live and in a relatively short space of time.


That does sound good to provide for these poor families . Just hope no nimby issues arise . I shouldn't think so as these poeple have endured enough


----------



## MilleD

SusieRainbow said:


> My brother lived on the top floor of a tower block in Sheffield , I could see he wouldn't have had a chance of escape in a fire.


There's talk of changing the rules so that people can use the lift in the event of a fire whilst it's still functioning. Not sure what they would do in the crossover of becoming unfunctioning though.


----------



## Creativecat

MilleD said:


> There's talk of changing the rules so that people can use the lift in the event of a fire whilst it's still functioning. Not sure what they would do in the crossover of becoming unfunctioning though.


Thts a scary thought .
Don't think i would gamble on using it
After all the failed promises given.
Being cooked alive isnt one of them to be fair :0(.


----------



## Elles

3 tower blocks in Plymouth have the same cladding. 

It was installed under Tony Blair's government and a Labour council I believe. The cladding was originally passed for use on high rise buildings by a Labour government. It wasn't to make them look good, it was meet insulation and environmental targets.

Those responsible for social housing in Plymouth had already commissioned investigations as to how sprinklers could be retrofitted in their tower blocks in February, so they were already planned. They are now replacing the cladding and fitting the sprinklers as a matter of urgency, have security guards patrolling the buildings and have checked that all other fire prevention precautions, doors etc are fully operational and are taking additional precautions. There are differences that would probably prevent the perfect storm of Grenfell, but it does look as though councils and those responsible for social housing are taking no risks. They are run by people and they will have seen the news too. 

It would appear that neither austerity, nor a conservative government were responsible for the cladding here in Devon. We've had Labour, Conservative and Libdem/Conservative coalition governments since and it was a Labour government who passed its use initially. No doubt it should have been reviewed and banned since then, but it's not recent austerity that caused it to be fitted.

That's not to say the crap at Grenfell isn't totally down to criminal behaviour, greed, austerity and a general couldn't care less attitude. It should have been well known amongst cladding experts and the company who fitted it that it was too dangerous to use on tower blocks by the time Grenfell got it.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> 3 tower blocks in Plymouth have the same cladding.
> 
> It was installed under Tony Blair's government and a Labour council I believe. The cladding was originally passed for use on high rise buildings by a Labour government. It wasn't to make them look good, it was meet insulation and environmental targets.
> 
> Those responsible for social housing in Plymouth had already commissioned investigations as to how sprinklers could be retrofitted in their tower blocks in February, so they were already planned. They are now replacing the cladding and fitting the sprinklers as a matter of urgency, have security guards patrolling the buildings and have checked that all other fire prevention precautions, doors etc are fully operational and are taking additional precautions. There are differences that would probably prevent the perfect storm of Grenfell, but it does look as though councils and those responsible for social housing are taking no risks. They are run by people and they will have seen the news too.
> 
> It would appear that neither austerity, nor a conservative government were responsible for the cladding here in Devon. We've had Labour, Conservative and Libdem/Conservative coalition governments since and it was a Labour government who passed its use initially. No doubt it should have been reviewed and banned since then, but it's not recent austerity that caused it to be fitted.
> 
> That's not to say the crap at Grenfell isn't totally down to criminal behaviour, greed, austerity and a general couldn't care less attitude. It should have been well known amongst cladding experts and the company who fitted it that it was too dangerous to use on tower blocks by the time Grenfell got it.


Thank fully under Corbyn Labour now has an anti austerity agenda & neoliberalism has been consigned to the bin where it belongs.


----------



## Elles

Nothing wrong with improving tower blocks and years ago they wouldn't have known as much. Recently more money had been invested to put in sprinklers, they've just hurried it forward, because of Grenfell. I don't think it's quite so bad in Devon as London tbh. If this country is so terrible, why do so many want to live here? 

It's such a shame that people are so focussed all the time on what they think is wrong and never praise what is right. It must be very tiring and very disheartening for people who do care and who have made a difference.

Many wealthy and powerful people have fought for the rights of those less well off and made many contributions, but you wouldn't think so.


----------



## noushka05

Important series of tweets from George Monbiot.

Ye gods. On the very day of the #*GrenfellTower* disaster, govt-backed body looked at deregulating cladding materials: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...tape-group-eu-fire-safety-rules-grenfell-fire

As a matter of urgency, the government should disband the Red Tape Initiative, and the rest of its deregulatory programme. #*GrenfellTower*

What Theresa May calls red tape comprises essential public protections. Their removal threatens our lives.

The public inquiry into #*GrenfellTower* should examine the contribution of the government's deregulatory agenda, cuts to legal aid etc

But there's a further issue here: governments set the terms of public inquiries. And choose the chairs.

We don't allow criminal suspects to decide the charges on which they are tried and choose the judge from among their mates.

The same principle should apply here. Public inquiry terms and chairs should be chosen by an independent panel.

.................................................


----------



## Elles

Cross party, bipartisan group, set up to look at red tape and in this instance deregulation was turned down. The regulations didn't protect Grenfell. I presume they will now go further. There will be many inquests and inquiries into what happened at Grenfell. 

It will be interesting to see what happens when Corbyn is PM.


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> It's such a shame that people are so focussed all the time on what they think is wrong and never praise what is right. It must be very tiring and very disheartening for people who do care and who have made a difference.


I truly believe that this is like a disease. The only news that reporters seem to think is newsworthy is always bad 

So many seem to think you rate yourself by what others think of you and suffer judgement over the internet, it's why so many seem to dislike themselves.

Many people seem to seek out and spread negative and despairing stories, never uttering a positive words

I'm sure that this must be the reason that so many are depressed or suffering other mental health issues. 
I find it so sad, when there is so much good and beautiful things to focus on


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Cross party, bipartisan group, set up to look at red tape and in this instance deregulation was turned down. The regulations didn't protect Grenfell. I presume they will now go further. There will be many inquests and inquiries into what happened at Grenfell.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what happens when Corbyn is PM.





rona said:


> I truly believe that this is like a disease. The only news that reporters seem to think is newsworthy is always bad
> 
> So many seem to think you rate yourself by what others think of you and suffer judgement over the internet, it's why so many seem to dislike themselves.
> 
> Many people seem to seek out and spread negative and despairing stories, never uttering a positive words
> 
> I'm sure that this must be the reason that so many are depressed or suffering other mental health issues.
> I find it so sad, when there is so much good and beautiful things to focus on


This is a thread about a terrible tragedy that could have been prevented - what positives are there?? Its almost like you're trying to play it down Decent people will not allow this to swept under the carpet Rona.

OMG I've just realised you started the bleeding thread? The irony...


----------



## Elles

Some people care and have tried to put things right where they can, but let's all go back to being miserable about absolutely everything, until Corbyn gets to be PM and puts everything right.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Some people care and have tried to put things right where they can, but let's all go back to being miserable about absolutely everything, until Corbyn gets to be PM and puts everything right.


Try as you might you won't shut down debate Elles. This is far too important.


----------



## Elles

How am I shutting down debate?


----------



## Dr Pepper

noushka05 said:


> Its almost like you're trying to play it down Decent people will not allow this to swept under the carpet Rona.
> ]


That @noushka05 is uncalled for. Just who are these "decent people"? Just those who support Labour? The Labour governments of the past are just as responsible as the current government if you want to play the blame game for this fire.

This thread has NOTHING to do with politics, if you hate Mrs May, idolise Mr Corbyn or think we should remain in the EU is of no consequence to this thread or what happened last week.


----------



## Elles

The post that inspired your sound bite and ignored anything good also said:



Elles said:


> That's not to say the crap at Grenfell isn't totally down to criminal behaviour, greed, austerity and a general couldn't care less attitude. It should have been well known amongst cladding experts and the company who fitted it that it was too dangerous to use on tower blocks by the time Grenfell got it.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> How am I shutting down debate?


Apologies then Elles.

But just who is trying to put things right?



Dr Pepper said:


> That @noushka05 is uncalled for. Just who are these "decent people"? Just those who support Labour? The Labour governments of the past are just as responsible as the current government if you want to play the blame game for this fire.
> 
> This thread has NOTHING to do with politics, if you hate Mrs May, idolise Mr Corbyn or think we should remain in the EU is of no consequence to this thread.


Decent people of all political persuasions who wont see this swept under the carpet. This thread has EVERYTHING to do with politics. Social housing is political. Deregulation is political - & yes new labour did cut regulations too. They adopted tory ideology - albeit a more humane version.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> Nothing wrong with improving tower blocks and years ago they wouldn't have known as much. Recently more money had been invested to put in sprinklers, they've just hurried it forward, because of Grenfell. I don't think it's quite so bad in Devon as London tbh. If this country is so terrible, why do so many want to live here?
> 
> It's such a shame that people are so focussed all the time on what they think is wrong and never praise what is right. It must be very tiring and very disheartening for people who do care and who have made a difference.
> 
> Many wealthy and powerful people have fought for the rights of those less well off and made many contributions, but you wouldn't think so.


Oh! At last, something we agree on!
Hallelujah


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> Apologies then Elles.
> 
> But just who is trying to put things right?
> 
> Decent people of all political persuasions who wont see this swept under the carpet. This thread has EVERYTHING to do with politics. Social housing is political. Deregulation is political - & yes new labour did cut regulations too. They adopted tory ideology - albeit a more humane version.


Thats what I sAid


----------



## 1290423

Siskin said:


> I did wonder how they were going to instantly find suitable accommodation for a large number of people so quickly.
> Sounds rather a nice complex for everyone, do hope they enjoy living there.


Hope they can afford the rent


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> Thats what I sAid


Gosh we could be Siamese twins:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

This is absolutely disgraceful.

*Government will not force private landlords to check cladding despite flammable fears*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-combustible-safety-tower-block-a7805296.html


----------



## 1290423

Can I be the top harf


----------



## 1290423

CAn I be the top harf​


----------



## noushka05

DT said:


> CAn I be the top harf​


:Hilarious Definitely not.


----------



## Elles

The company doing the testing are working flat out 24/7 . Some councils aren't waiting for the results, they're just taking off any cladding. The government have told private owners and landlords that they can send in their cladding for free testing, reminded them that they are legally obligated to provide safe housing and councils will be counting blocks with cladding in their areas and notifying the government. I don't doubt that tenants of private landlords, commercial and residential, will be making a lot of noise about it, especially if they don't have sprinklers.

I do agree though that they should be legally obligated with no grey area, to send cladding for testing and prove that it's safe as an added precaution.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> This is a thread about a terrible tragedy that could have been prevented - what positives are there?? Its almost like you're trying to play it down Decent people will not allow this to swept under the carpet Rona.
> 
> OMG I've just realised you started the bleeding thread? The irony...
> 
> View attachment 315849


And some people jumped on it to, yet again, push their political agenda. But hey, each to their own


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> And some people jumped on it to, yet again, push their political agenda. But hey, each to their own


The fact remains politics have played a major role in this tragedy.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> The fact remains politics have played a major role in this tragedy.


For sure. But as a lot of people have consistently pointed out, there is fault across the board, not just the "evil" Tories


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> For sure. But as a lot of people have consistently pointed out, there is fault across the board, not just the "evil" Tories


I think you need to re- read my posts. New labour adopted the ideology - they are certainly not without fault!


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> I think you need to re- read my posts. New labour adopted the ideology - they are certainly not without fault!


The fact that you keep shouting at people, who are trying to be balanced about everything, really doesn't help. We're VERY aware how you feel about any political party who isn't Corbyn's gang. He is not the Messiah and the way he and McDonnell have behaved over this is disgraceful. Why not try giving people some room to express their opinion before bullying them because everyone who doesn't outright condemn the Tories with every sentence is so wrong


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> The fact that you keep shouting at people, who are trying to be balanced about everything, really doesn't help. We're VERY aware how you feel about any political party who isn't Corbyn's gang. He is not the Messiah and the way he and McDonnell have behaved over this is disgraceful. Why not try giving people some room to express their opinion before bullying them because everyone who doesn't outright condemn the Tories with every sentence is so wrong


OMG bullying card.:Stop


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> OMG bullying card.:Stop


I'm not the first to say it. Try being a bit nicer and the card wouldn't get played


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm not the first to say it. Try being a bit nicer and the card wouldn't get played


Well some people just don't like what I say however I say it  You could be nicer too but I don't think you're a bully. If people don't like what I say or how I say it the best thing they can do is put me on ignore & I'm sure if the mods think I'm a bully they will ban me. And believe me a ban would probably do me a favour I waste far too much of my time on here.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Well some people just don't like what I say however I say it  You could be nicer too but I don't think you're a bully. If people don't like what I say or how I say it the best thing they can do is put me on ignore & I'm sure if the mods think I'm a bully they will ban me. And believe me a ban would probably do me a favour I waste far too much of my time on here.


A lot of people disagree with others, but there is a way of doing it that doesn't attempt to constantly railroad them. Nobody is perfect, and the majority of us are willing to admit when we're wrong or when we're not happy with a decision taken by any of whichever party we voted for.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> A lot of people disagree with others, but there is a way of doing it that doesn't attempt to constantly railroad them. Nobody is perfect, and the majority of us are willing to admit when we're wrong or when we're not happy with a decision taken by any of whichever party we voted for.


Railroading = debating. If I strongly disagree with someone I'm not sure I can ignore it tbh.

I'm certainly not perfect & have held my hands up plenty of times on here when I've been proved wrong. If I think I'm right though I'm like a dog with a bone. Its a forum at the end of the day - people debate things sometimes. And you really don't have to read my posts MM.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## rona

http://blogs.redcross.org.uk/appeals/2017/06/community-comes-together-grenfell-tower-tragedy/
"The community spirit is incredible, absolutely incredible," said Phil Osler, reflecting on the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire in West London.

"There is a constant stream of people coming in with offers of help - clothing, toiletries, food - everybody coming together, regardless of background or religion.

"At one point I was talking to a rabbi, an imam, and a pastor. Everyone is there for one thing and that is to help."

https://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news...s-come-together-to-distribute-11m-raised.html
"Three of the major funds for the people affected by the Grenfell fire - the British Red Cross, K&C Foundation, and the Evening Standard Dispossessed Fund, in collaboration with The London Community Foundation - are coming together with the London Emergencies Trust to make money available immediately. "

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/23/grenfell-tower-charity-single-6729933/
"Grenfell Tower charity single reaches number 1 just 48 hours after release"

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...shield-proceeds-to-support-fund-a3571986.html
"Proceeds from the Community Shield will be donated to the Grenfell Tower support fund, it has been confirmed.

The FA, Arsenal, Chelsea and McDonalds - who support the event - hope to raise £1.25million for the victims of the tragedy."

http://www.muntadaaid.org/news/fait...ommunity-affected-by-the-grenfell-tower-fire/
"Speaking at the community event, Hamid Azad - CEO for Muntada Aid said; "Following the tragic event which happened at Grenfell Tower during the early hours of Wednesday 14th June, our community - all of London, has come together over the past few days to give support and help to all who were affected by the devastating fire.

"Often we hear that communities are fearful of each other. That people are no longer united. But after the tragic incident on Wednesday in Grenfell Tower we saw the opposite. The London we see today is full of love, compassion, unity and tolerance. Thank you very much to all, the police, fire brigades and members of communities who came out to help our brothers and sisters with love and compassion."

So much good around amongst tragedy

It's what people do that counts. Things get distorted by just a few bad voices


----------



## Honeys mum

Chalcots estate evacuations: 800 households evacuated from five tower blocks in Camden | The Independent
Hundreds of homes evacuated after Grenfell fire

Residents evacuated from their homes as fire officers couldn't guarantee their safety.


----------



## Creativecat

Oh my lord evacuations on a biblical
Scale. Cutting corners has definatly come back to bite the local councils bottom. Safety standards have definatly not been addressed for a very long time I'm sad to say :0(


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

MiffyMoo said:


> The fact that you keep shouting at people, who are trying to be balanced about everything, really doesn't help. We're VERY aware how you feel about any political party who isn't Corbyn's gang. He is not the Messiah and the way he and McDonnell have behaved over this is disgraceful. Why not try giving people some room to express their opinion before bullying them because everyone who doesn't outright condemn the Tories with every sentence is so wrong





MiffyMoo said:


> I'm not the first to say it. Try being a bit nicer and the card wouldn't get played


I think bullying is a bit OTT and is not a "card to play" when we don't agree with someone or their posting style. Noush and I have plenty of very heated disagreements and at times she has infuriated me so much that I've put her on ignore for a few days but I've never viewed someone with passionate opinions who stands up for what they believe in as bullying. She does apologise too if she over steps the mark or misunderstands a point someone makes which is more than I can say for a lot of people on here.

So did Camden Council not find out until Friday evening that the blocks were unsafe? Makes you wonder what on earth you would do about pets especially fish tanks, birds, cats etc if you had to leave in a hurry and stay away for weeks, possibly in a hotel room. I can remember when we had a big heath fire here, we live adjacent to the heath and the wind was blowing it in our direction, I could see the flames from my bedroom window. My OH was at work and had taken the car the dogs go in, the police were driving up and down our road telling people to evacuate and go to a community centre but with 3 big dogs, my rottie at the time was people and dog aggressive and had to be muzzled so I knew I couldn't go there so I shut the windows and stayed put until my OH got back. Stupid and dangerous thing to do looking back but perhaps we should all have a plan in place for how we would evacuate at short notice if we had to.


----------



## havoc

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So did Camden Council not find out until Friday evening that the blocks were unsafe?


I don't think this is a single issue and they didn't complete fire checks until late. Some blocks have this cladding but have more than one escape route/fire alarms/different gas piping so don't need to be evacuated. The labs are checking the cladding, fire officers are then making a decision property by property. Camden Council couldn't do right for doing wrong here, if they'd left it until this morning to pass on the information it would have been one more night the residents were at risk.


----------



## Happy Paws2

In a way I feel for the councils, they pick a contractor to do the work for them, then they contracts, contact out to someone else and so it's goes on, It's going to hard to find out who all the contractors are.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

havoc said:


> I don't think this is a single issue and they didn't complete fire checks until late. Some blocks have this cladding but have more than one escape route/fire alarms/different gas piping so don't need to be evacuated. The labs are checking the cladding, fire officers are then making a decision property by property. Camden Council couldn't do right for doing wrong here, if they'd left it until this morning to pass on the information it would have been one more night the residents were at risk.


Yes I understand all that and all the variants they are having to check but find it hard to believe the information only became available to them on Friday evening at 8 pm.


----------



## Honeys mum

Cladding fire tests failed by 27 high-rise blocks - BBC News

The news gets worse, the council have now found 27 high rise blocks are not safe. They are in 15 different areas of england.At least they are doing the checks and have been honest about what they have found.Those poor people, what will happen now.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> until Corbyn gets to be PM


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...10-hour-16-year-olds-pay-salary-a7805086.html

Life will be totally wonderful when he is PM...even the 16-year-olds will be on £10 an hour. They won't bother staying on to do A-levels and consequently no-one will go to university so he won't have to pays the fees which he promised to do! He's a shifty old sod, isn't he?


----------



## MiffyMoo

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think bullying is a bit OTT and is not a "card to play" when we don't agree with someone or their posting style. Noush and I have plenty of very heated disagreements and at times she has infuriated me so much that I've put her on ignore for a few days but I've never viewed someone with passionate opinions who stands up for what they believe in as bullying. She does apologise too if she over steps the mark or misunderstands a point someone makes which is more than I can say for a lot of people on here.
> 
> So did Camden Council not find out until Friday evening that the blocks were unsafe? Makes you wonder what on earth you would do about pets especially fish tanks, birds, cats etc if you had to leave in a hurry and stay away for weeks, possibly in a hotel room. I can remember when we had a big heath fire here, we live adjacent to the heath and the wind was blowing it in our direction, I could see the flames from my bedroom window. My OH was at work and had taken the car the dogs go in, the police were driving up and down our road telling people to evacuate and go to a community centre but with 3 big dogs, my rottie at the time was people and dog aggressive and had to be muzzled so I knew I couldn't go there so I shut the windows and stayed put until my OH got back. Stupid and dangerous thing to do looking back but perhaps we should all have a plan in place for how we would evacuate at short notice if we had to.


Good point about evacuating. I honestly have no clue what I could do with the dogs, as my brother works abroad 4 days a week and has cats. Any friends who have a garden also have cats


----------



## havoc

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I understand all that and all the variants they are having to check but find it hard to believe the information only became available to them on Friday evening at 8 pm.


What if they'd had the fire officer's report at 4pm and made them get out before they'd organised somewhere for them to go - would that have been better? I can't see there's a 'right' moment when there's no immediate risk to life. I'm not saying they couldn't have done things better, I don't know, but this is an enormous problem and they're probably doing the best they can.

Somewhere in this mess there may be blameworthy individuals or companies and there's no doubt councils have closed their eyes and ears to legitimate concerns. At least they're doing something now. It's little enough and I agree it doesn't show much organisational ability - at least they now have to acknowledge the problem.


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> And believe me a ban would probably do me a favour I waste far too much of my time on here.


So *why* do you post here? 
Have you actually posted anything to do with pets ?


----------



## kimthecat

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think bullying is a bit OTT and is not a "card to play" when we don't agree with someone or their posting style. .


I think it has to do with frustration and getting angry at not being able to convince people of their personal agenda .
It really does put people off even when most of the time they agree.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

kimthecat said:


> I think it has to do with frustration and getting angry at not being able to convince people of their personal agenda .
> It really does put people off even when most of the time they agree.


That is forum life though isn't it? I get frustrated and angry too so I either use the ignore button or stop participating in a thread for a while or no longer respond to certain posters.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

kimthecat said:


> So *why* do you post here?
> Have you actually posted anything to do with pets ?


Didn't you see her lovely dogs the other day? I know I go through phases where I post more in the dog section and hardly in general chat, recently I haven't wanted to participate so much in the dog section so have been in general chat much more. Does it matter?


----------



## kimthecat

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Didn't you see her lovely dogs the other day? I know I go through phases where I post more in the dog section and hardly in general chat, recently I haven't wanted to participate so much in the dog section so have been in general chat much more. Does it matter?


No i missed it . i was away .

Does it matter . not really ? This is a public forum and people have different reasons for posting here .


----------



## SpringDance

Calvine said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...10-hour-16-year-olds-pay-salary-a7805086.html
> 
> Life will be totally wonderful when he is PM...even the 16-year-olds will be on £10 an hour. They won't bother staying on to do A-levels and consequently no-one will go to university so he won't have to pays the fees which he promised to do! He's a shifty old sod, isn't he?


That's not necessarily a bad thing... do comes from a country where most people get a degree or higher qualification. It means that you have to have a degree to do some jobs that don't need it. It doesn't necessarily drive up education. I'm too tires to clarify what I mean properly, but sometimes leaving education and starting work is for the better.


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> So *why* do you post here?
> Have you actually posted anything to do with pets ?


Noushka used to post zillions about here pets. As did I, but that was back when adam were a lad, you'd have to go back maybe eight years, perhaps more. Infact that was all we used to post about then.


----------



## ClaireLouise

DT said:


> Noushka used to post zillions about here pets. As did I, but that was back when adam were a lad, you'd have to go back maybe eight years, perhaps more. Infact that was all we used to post about then.


Same here! I joined the forum when i was on maternity leave with my second child and she is 10years old this year


----------



## 1290423

ClaireLouise said:


> Same here! I joined the forum when i was on maternity leave with my second child and she is 10years old this year


I remember those days clare xx although it looks like i,ve only been here a short time, cant think why:Bawling


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Well some people just don't like what I say however I say it  You could be nicer too but I don't think you're a bully. If people don't like what I say or how I say it the best thing they can do is put me on ignore & I'm sure if the mods think I'm a bully they will ban me. And believe me a ban would probably do me a favour I waste far too much of my time on here.


Nah! You won't get a ban Noush'

The world needs more folks like you who have their finger on the pulse, otherwise the world might flat line and then where would we be.

In some right pretty sh1t, I imagine.:Facepalm


----------



## ClaireLouise

DT said:


> I remember those days clare xx although it looks like i,ve only been here a short time, cant think why:Bawling


Im on my second account lol its certainly changed over the years


----------



## cheekyscrip

So now 60 buildings in 25 location ls failed.
But then how those materials passed fire safety tests in the first place?
I smell worse than rat, rats smell not bad at all.
Is is the attempt to lie the blame at the product or fire safety testers?


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> Noushka used to post zillions about here pets. As did I, but that was back when adam were a lad, you'd have to go back maybe eight years, perhaps more. Infact that was all we used to post about then.


ah the good old days of PF


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said: ↑
I think it has to do with frustration and getting angry at not being able to convince people of their personal agenda .
It really does put people off even when most of the time they agree.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> That is forum life though isn't it? I get frustrated and angry too so I either use the ignore button or stop participating in a thread for a while or no longer respond to certain posters.


Yes absolutely I've always said that myself but that's not my point really .
If you have an agenda then you want people to listen to you and convince them and not piss them off so much that they ignore you .
To annoy people who basically agree with you takes some doing .

You encourage veganism etc , I've never found you so annoying that I put you on ignore 

My agenda is about pets , to encourage PR training and discourage Cesar Milan methods , I don't need to do this here as this forum is mainly for PR and anti CM anyway .


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> ah the good old days of PF


Wouldn't go quite so far with the good.
The livelier maybe


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> kimthecat said: ↑
> I think it has to do with frustration and getting angry at not being able to convince people of their personal agenda .
> It really does put people off even when most of the time they agree.
> 
> Yes absolutely I've always said that myself but that's not my point really .
> If you have an agenda then you want people to listen to you and convince them and not piss them off so much that they ignore you .
> To annoy people who basically agree with you takes some doing .
> 
> You encourage veganism etc , I've never found you so annoying that I put you on ignore
> 
> My agenda is about pets , to encourage PR training and discourage Cesar Milan methods , I don't need to do this here as this forum is mainly for PR and anti CM anyway .


JFYI, RPH put me on ignore over things we disagreed upon - sometimes debates can get a bit heated I'm afraid. But neither RPH nor I hold grudges & I'm very very touched she has spoken out in my defence. (thank you so much @rottiepointerhouse xx) . I'm debating, I don't have a personal agenda. I don't subscribe to individualism anyway.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> JFYI, RPH put me on ignore over things we disagreed upon - sometimes debates can get a bit heated I'm afraid. But neither RPH nor I hold grudges & I'm very very touched she has spoken out in my defence. (thank you so much @rottiepointerhouse xx) . I'm debating, I don't have a personal agenda. I don't subscribe to individualism anyway.


I dont neither well I dont when there is an R in the month


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

kimthecat said:


> kimthecat said: ↑
> I think it has to do with frustration and getting angry at not being able to convince people of their personal agenda .
> It really does put people off even when most of the time they agree.
> 
> Yes absolutely I've always said that myself but that's not my point really .
> If you have an agenda then you want people to listen to you and convince them and not piss them off so much that they ignore you .
> To annoy people who basically agree with you takes some doing .
> 
> *You encourage veganism etc , I've never found you so annoying that I put you on ignore*
> 
> My agenda is about pets , to encourage PR training and discourage Cesar Milan methods , I don't need to do this here as this forum is mainly for PR and anti CM anyway .


:Hilarious:Hilarious Thank you I'm glad but others find me totally obnoxious about the subject to I guess its all down to personal preferences and tolerances and what the subject is.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

noushka05 said:


> JFYI, RPH put me on ignore over things we disagreed upon - sometimes debates can get a bit heated I'm afraid. But neither RPH nor I hold grudges & I'm very very touched she has spoken out in my defence. (thank you so much @rottiepointerhouse xx) . I'm debating, I don't have a personal agenda. I don't subscribe to individualism anyway.


I did - on more than one occasion but usually because you are pricking my conscience more than I care to admit at that moment in time


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> Wouldn't go quite so far with the good.
> The livelier maybe


 yeah , I know! , that was a little bit of sarcasm there


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> kimthecat said: ↑
> I think it has to do with frustration and getting angry at not being able to convince people of their personal agenda .
> It really does put people off even when most of the time they agree.
> 
> Yes absolutely I've always said that myself but that's not my point really .
> If you have an agenda then you want people to listen to you and convince them and not piss them off so much that they ignore you .
> To annoy people who basically agree with you takes some doing .
> 
> You encourage veganism etc , I've never found you so annoying that I put you on ignore
> 
> My agenda is about pets , to encourage PR training and discourage Cesar Milan methods , I don't need to do this here as this forum is mainly for PR and anti CM anyway .


Does cesar millan train cats then?


----------



## kimthecat

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious Thank you I'm glad but others find me totally obnoxious about the subject to I guess its all down to personal preferences and tolerances and what the subject is.


Yes I expect so though I think in some cases there's more to it than that . 
Ive done forums and now defunct Yahoo groups etc for about 17 years and I've found the way people behave is as fascinating as animal behaviour . I've learnt a lot about people and how behaviour follows predictable patterns and the way that forums tactics and ploys are used and how people can be out manoeuvered and sometimes manipulated without realising. 
I'm sure there have been studies done and books about it !


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> Does cesar millan train cats then?


Not as far as I know , you can train cats though , I've seem then do agility though it was in an enclosed space !.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> http://blogs.redcross.org.uk/appeals/2017/06/community-comes-together-grenfell-tower-tragedy/
> "The community spirit is incredible, absolutely incredible," said Phil Osler, reflecting on the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire in West London.
> 
> "There is a constant stream of people coming in with offers of help - clothing, toiletries, food - everybody coming together, regardless of background or religion.
> 
> "At one point I was talking to a rabbi, an imam, and a pastor. Everyone is there for one thing and that is to help."
> 
> https://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news...s-come-together-to-distribute-11m-raised.html
> "Three of the major funds for the people affected by the Grenfell fire - the British Red Cross, K&C Foundation, and the Evening Standard Dispossessed Fund, in collaboration with The London Community Foundation - are coming together with the London Emergencies Trust to make money available immediately. "
> 
> http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/23/grenfell-tower-charity-single-6729933/
> "Grenfell Tower charity single reaches number 1 just 48 hours after release"
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...shield-proceeds-to-support-fund-a3571986.html
> "Proceeds from the Community Shield will be donated to the Grenfell Tower support fund, it has been confirmed.
> 
> The FA, Arsenal, Chelsea and McDonalds - who support the event - hope to raise £1.25million for the victims of the tragedy."
> 
> http://www.muntadaaid.org/news/fait...ommunity-affected-by-the-grenfell-tower-fire/
> "Speaking at the community event, Hamid Azad - CEO for Muntada Aid said; "Following the tragic event which happened at Grenfell Tower during the early hours of Wednesday 14th June, our community - all of London, has come together over the past few days to give support and help to all who were affected by the devastating fire.
> 
> "Often we hear that communities are fearful of each other. That people are no longer united. But after the tragic incident on Wednesday in Grenfell Tower we saw the opposite. The London we see today is full of love, compassion, unity and tolerance. Thank you very much to all, the police, fire brigades and members of communities who came out to help our brothers and sisters with love and compassion."
> 
> So much good around amongst tragedy
> 
> It's what people do that counts. Things get distorted by just a few bad voices


The response from the public & the fire service has been amazing & should be praised but do you really think its a good thing to try to stifle debate ??



kimthecat said:


> So *why* do you post here?


Just to pi$$ people off, obviously.



DT said:


> Noushka used to post zillions about here pets. As did I, but that was back when adam were a lad, you'd have to go back maybe eight years, perhaps more. Infact that was all we used to post about then.


I've actually posted quite a lot recently- ish about my little ferrets Sue - not many venture in the ferret section so you're probably not aware of that



Zaros said:


> Nah! You won't get a ban Noush'
> 
> The world needs more folks like you who have their finger on the pulse, otherwise the world might flat line and then where would we be.
> 
> In some right pretty sh1t, I imagine.:Facepalm


Well it won't be the first time if I do:Hilarious

(& thank you Zaros x)


----------



## noushka05

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I did - on more than one occasion but usually because you are pricking my conscience more than I care to admit at that moment in time


Gosh I feel really humbled now, so much respect for you RPH. Thank you xx


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Yes I expect so though I think in some cases there's more to it than that .
> Ive done forums and now defunct Yahoo groups etc for about 17 years and I've found the way people behave is as fascinating as animal behaviour . I've learnt a lot about people and how behaviour follows predictable patterns and the way that forums tactics and ploys are used and how people can be out manoeuvered and sometimes manipulated without realising.
> I'm sure there have been studies done and books about it !


And this post doesn't look at all like manipulation...

I might get carried away when I'm debating but I'm really not that clever Kim - I don't go on in a debate unless I feel I have a strong case & I usually try to support my case with facts & evidence. You clearly have a problem with that & have had personal digs at me on more then one occasion even though I have tried to be nice to you.


----------



## MilleD

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I did - on more than one occasion but usually because you are pricking my conscience more than I care to admit at that moment in time


She does do that doesn't she? 

:Kiss

Don't fight guys


----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> She does do that doesn't she?
> 
> :Kiss
> 
> Don't fight guys


lol

Ahh I don't want to fight, I just felt I had to defend myself. I don't want things to get personal, I'd really like to just let bygones by bygones & forget about it.

( you would make a very good peacemaker ! )

]


----------



## Jesthar

DT said:


> Does cesar millan train cats then?


You know, I'd quite like to see him try - lets see how well he survives trying to alpha roll an animal that

a) regards humans as an inferior species and has no desire to please them,
b) is a slippery, high speed, wriggly, hard to grab acrobat, and
c) can deploy not just teeth but also razor sharp talons at a moments notice, and pretty much every which way at once...

(please note, I wouldn't condone this experiment actually happening. But only for the cat's sake  )


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> do you really think its a good thing to try to stifle debate ?


Well, I for one, do not.

Although you must realise debate becomes futile when submitted posts are intentionally and deliberately personal, offensive and insulting.

Not everyone deserves saving Noush'

Particularly the 'mendacious' ones and their followers.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> You know, I'd quite like to see him try - lets see how well he survives trying to alpha roll an animal that
> 
> a) regards humans as an inferior species and has no desire to please them,
> b) is a slippery, high speed, wriggly, hard to grab acrobat, and
> c) can deploy not just teeth but also razor sharp talons at a moments notice, and pretty much every which way at once...
> 
> (please note, I wouldn't condone this experiment actually happening. But only for the cat's sake  )


.A good summing up ! 
I'm visualising a cat attacking CM.


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> .A good summing up !
> I'm visualising a cat attacking CM.


Why not watch in glorious colour instead.

Whatever he whispered in the cat's ear was obviously not approved of...

YOU WHAT!​


----------



## kimthecat

noushka05 said:


> I might get carried away when I'm debating but I'm really not that clever Kim - I don't go on in a debate unless I feel I have a strong case & I usually try to support my case with facts & evidence. You clearly have a problem with that & have had personal digs at me on more then one occasion even though I have tried to be nice to you.


When more than one person has a "problem " with you perhaps they're not one's with the problem.

ETA I made a joke a long while back and you got upset and I apologised. I've been nice to you too .


----------



## catz4m8z

hmmm, I feel like this thread needs modding and maybe a page or two removed?


----------



## Elles

On countryfile last night was a chap riding a horse and carrying a hawk. He was explaining how horses are herd animals so they can be punished, but birds don't accept punishment they'd just fly away, so they have to be trained without it and you have to try to control your temper with hawks. 

Horses put up with a lot.


----------



## kimthecat

@Elles  . I dont know why they thought it was acceptable to show that . 
Not only horses but dogs too.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> On countryfile last night was a chap riding a horse and carrying a hawk. He was explaining how horses are herd animals so they can be punished, but birds don't accept punishment they'd just fly away, so they have to be trained without it and you have to try to control your temper with hawks.
> 
> Horses put up with a lot.





kimthecat said:


> @Elles  . I dont know why they thought it was acceptable to show that .
> Not only horses but dogs too.


He did say and show just wagging a finger to tell them off, he didn't say anything about physical punishment. I don't think anyone on here as never told the pet off in one way or another.


----------



## kimthecat

OIC . I didnt see it , 
BTW I'm not sure why this has come up on a thread about fire . @Elles did you mean to post this here ?


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws said:


> He did say and show just wagging a finger to tell them off, he didn't say anything about physical punishment. I don't think anyone on here as never told the pet off in one way or another.


Probably best if people saw it themselves. That was demonstrating that you can't even wag your finger at a hawk and imagine if you couldn't even do that to tell your dog off. Unfortunately when it comes to horses a lot of punishment, or even abuse isn't viewed as punishment or abuse. If horses had a voice, a lot of show grounds would be very noisy.

Yes it was relating to the cat vs dog CM and punishment. CM couldn't treat a hawk the way he treats dogs either, but people think it's fine to treat horses even worse and use the same excuses for it. It just happens that it was on tv last night. It is my particular soapbox though.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Probably best if people saw it themselves. That was demonstrating that you can't even wag your finger at a hawk and imagine if you couldn't even do that to tell your dog off. Unfortunately when it comes to horses a lot of punishment, or even abuse isn't viewed as punishment or abuse. If horses had a voice, a lot of show grounds would be very noisy.
> 
> Yes it was relating to the cat vs dog CM and punishment. CM couldn't treat a hawk the way he treats dogs either, *but people think it's fine to treat horses even worse* and use the same excuses for it. It just happens that it was on tv last night. It is my particular soapbox though.


That's something that has worried me for years, how do they train horses for showing jumping, eventing and dressage.


----------



## kimthecat

@Happy Paws Me too. Years ago They used to do things like lift the jump poles up to make the horses jump higher


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> @Happy Paws Me too. Years ago They used to do things like lift the jump poles up to make the horses jump higher


Yup, I remember that. I also remember my dad telling me that, when he was in the army, they would punch or knee the horse in the gut to make them breath out when doing up the girth


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> @Happy Paws Me too. Years ago They used to do things like lift the jump poles up to make the horses jump higher


That's what worries me, even in the The Grand Nation with it high fences horses can and do run round the fences and the fences aren't solid like the jumps in eventing.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> When more than one person has a "problem " with you perhaps they're not one's with the problem.
> 
> ETA I made a joke a long while back and you got upset and I apologised. I've been nice to you too .


& maybe they have a problem with me because they don't what I have to say & when I think I'm right I will keep debating till the cows come home

I don't get upset at jokes & I have never got personal with you . Anyway life's too short to be bickering, I can move on if you can Kim


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Well, I for one, do not.
> 
> Although you must realise debate becomes futile when submitted posts are intentionally and deliberately personal, offensive and insulting.
> 
> Not everyone deserves saving Noush'
> 
> Particularly the 'mendacious' ones and their followers.


Thank you for this x

& thank you for your wise words too x


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> When more than one person has a "problem " with you perhaps they're not one's with the problem.
> 
> ETA I made a joke a long while back and you got upset and I apologised. I've been nice to you too .


Talk about dragging up the past, Think its time you two put each other on ignore and for the record anyone who has a problem with noush must have a problem as she is the most easiest person to get along with that there is she her and I are polar opposites she'll say it like it is if you want to know what a spade looks like ask our noush. But once its said its done with!


----------



## Creativecat

http://news.sky.com/story/16315m-paid-out-to-grenfell-tower-fire-victims-10927759


----------



## kittih

Just had a breaking news story appear on Facebook about a baby just being found alive in Grenfell Tower. Apparently the story is a hoax but has been made to look legitimate (metro-uk.com as the originator as well as correct name of investigating officer).

Why do people think it is ok to do this sort of thing. It falsely gives the families and residents hope


----------



## kimthecat

kittih said:


> Just had a breaking news story appear on Facebook about a baby just being found alive in Grenfell Tower. Apparently the story is a hoax but has been made to look legitimate (metro-uk.com as the originator).
> 
> Why do people think it is ok to do this sort of thing. It falsely gives the families and residents hope


 That really is an awful thing to do , How could they!


----------



## Creativecat

Thts so abhorrent to even think spreading that sort of thing , but inall fairness I'm not suprised anymore :0(


----------



## MiffyMoo

kittih said:


> Just had a breaking news story appear on Facebook about a baby just being found alive in Grenfell Tower. Apparently the story is a hoax but has been made to look legitimate (metro-uk.com as the originator as well as correct name of investigating officer).
> 
> Why do people think it is ok to do this sort of thing. It falsely gives the families and residents hope


Metro posted that it's definitely not them. Understandably they're really upset about it


----------



## kittih

MiffyMoo said:


> Metro posted that it's definitely not them. Understandably they're really upset about it


Yes. They used the metro name and the BBC breaking news banner. I can quite understand that the Metro and most likely the BBC are angry having their names / logos misused.


----------



## Dr Pepper

kimthecat said:


> That really is an awful thing to do , How could they!


It's the obsession with getting meaningless Facebook "likes". Sad idiot's.


----------



## kimthecat

At the start of newsnight , a man talking saying that builders associations advise the builders and he said they help bend the rules . They also don't mention to the builders that the regulations on the fire proof cladding (they're graded )are the mininum so often the builders go below the minimum ,

It might be worth watching it on catch up , that's not a very good summing up but you get the gist ,


----------



## noushka05

_"If you want to see how the poor die come to Grenfell Tower..."_

*Channel 4 News*‏Verified [email protected]*Channel4News* 10h10 hours ago

Grenfell Tower, June 2017. An extraordinary poem by @*benokri* - read in full.






*Published on 26 Jun 2017*
'Grenfell Tower, June, 2017' is a poem written by Nigerian writer Ben Okri. To raise funds for relatives of victims of the Grenfel Tower fire, and for survivors.


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> Talk about dragging up the past, Think its time you two put each other on ignore and for the record anyone who has a problem with noush must have a problem as she is the most easiest person to get along with that there is she her and I are polar opposites she'll say it like it is if you want to know what a spade looks like ask our noush. But once its said its done with!


Its not me that's dragging up the past. I already have Noush on ignore which is why i was surprised to read that I have been making digs at her when AFAIR I've not read or responded to her post for months . E TA except recently about corbyn but it was civil :Eggonface I cant think why she feels the need " to try to be nice to me " when I haven't posted to her. I think I have the right to explain that I made one joke ages and she must be thinking of that .

That's great that's Noush is a good friend to you . When I see some one *I* like write a post where they are not happy , check out who they are responding to and see the jibe Playing the Bullying card when I don't think that's true, I feel that's very unfair .

Anyway , I'm done now . Each to his or her own and best wishes to you


----------



## 1290423

kimthecat said:


> Its not me that's dragging up the past. I already have Noush on ignore which is why i was surprised to read that I have been making digs at her when AFAIR I've not read or responded to her post for months . I cant think why she feels the need " to try to be nice to me " when I haven't posted to her. I think I have the right to explain that I made one joke ages and she must be thinking of that .
> 
> That's great that's Noush is a good friend to you . When I see some one *I* like write a post where they are not happy , check out who they are responding to and see the jibe Playing the Bullying card when I don't think that's true, I feel that's very unfair .
> 
> Anyway , I'm done now . Each to his or her own and best wishes to you


Storm in a tea up be 'appy xx


----------



## kimthecat

DT said:


> Storm in a tea up be 'appy xx


Ok  actually i embarrassed to say i will have to correct my previous post to you , i think me and noush did engage about corbyn where I got it wrong  :Eggonface


----------



## MollySmith

I see stuff on here and in PF on General Chat that I'd never said to my partner nevermind a stranger but I'm just going to say that, we have lots to learn from each other. But the way to learn is to show and tell, not through bashing or liking your mates posts. It's about asking intelligent questions and considering that someone else might be right or have a fair point. Incredibly hard to do on this post, anything political so self belief comes into play and that's when sides are taken because who is right? The papers certainly aren't? We're not - none of us really. But a cruel post on a forum can upset someone. 

I'm no angel here, I absolutely agree. But these last pages are grim reading, full of accusations and a touch of the flouncing on all sides. Doesn't the Grenfell tower disaster teach us that we should be a bit nicer to each other, life can be cruelly and quickly taken away? Less time on forums is well spent as it the time spent on them being kinder. C'mon folks, get it together.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> I got it wrong


Shame on you! Without saying too much, I do think there are some posters who nit-pick and cherry-pick what they read to their own advantage without taking one's post as a whole item. I have three on ignore (only since very recently) and they are ones who are most vocal, knowledgeable and self-righteous on the political threads which are becoming so prolific...at the expense of the pet threads.


----------



## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> I'm no angel here, I absolutely agree. But these last pages are grim reading, full of accusations and a touch of the flouncing on all sides. Doesn't the Grenfell tower disaster teach us that we should be a bit nicer to each other,


@MollySmith: you are so right...not just here on PF, but in general...it is all finger pointing and apportioning blame on_ this_ organisation or _that_ organisation. A whole disaster being used to score political points IMHO (as was Jo Cox's murder...remember). The Tories being accused of ''murder'' by McDonell (even tho' the block which was destroyed was 40 years old and had several governments which could, but did not, check on it). Instead of hooting and hollering and shrieking 'May must go', get on and fix the places that need fixing and make sure people have somewhere safe to live. That's all...not luxury, just safety so that desperate people don't have to throw their babies out of a tenth floor window in a hope they will survive if someone catches them. I read that it would actually have cost little more to use the safer version of the cladding and that sprinklers would not have been expensive to install and that makes it all the more shameful that it was not done...not during the terms of any governments over 40 years.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Its not me that's dragging up the past. I already have Noush on ignore which is why i was surprised to read that I have been making digs at her when AFAIR I've not read or responded to her post for months . E TA except recently about corbyn but it was civil :Eggonface I cant think why she feels the need " to try to be nice to me " when I haven't posted to her. I think I have the right to explain that I made one joke ages and she must be thinking of that .
> 
> That's great that's Noush is a good friend to you . When I see some one *I* like write a post where they are not happy , check out who they are responding to and see the jibe Playing the Bullying card when I don't think that's true, I feel that's very unfair .
> 
> Anyway , I'm done now . Each to his or her own and best wishes to you


What I meant was by tried to be nice to you is when you criticized my posting style, I think it was on a climate change thread, & I tried to accommodate & change my style for you (clearly I failed but I did try). And on this thread I was just shocked when you wanted to me to justify why I post on the forum.

I was the one being accused of doing the bullying so I'm glad you don't think that's true at least. I know you have me on ignore so even though you wont see this but there's no hard feelings on my part.



MollySmith said:


> I see stuff on here and in PF on General Chat that I'd never said to my partner nevermind a stranger but I'm just going to say that, we have lots to learn from each other. But the way to learn is to show and tell, not through bashing or liking your mates posts. It's about asking intelligent questions and considering that someone else might be right or have a fair point. Incredibly hard to do on this post, anything political so self belief comes into play and that's when sides are taken because who is right? The papers certainly aren't? We're not - none of us really. But a cruel post on a forum can upset someone.
> 
> I'm no angel here, I absolutely agree. But these last pages are grim reading, full of accusations and a touch of the flouncing on all sides. Doesn't the Grenfell tower disaster teach us that we should be a bit nicer to each other, life can be cruelly and quickly taken away? Less time on forums is well spent as it the time spent on them being kinder. C'mon folks, get it together.


No more flouncing on my part, I felt I just had to explain myself in my previous post. Thank you for your sensible words Molly x


----------



## rona

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40422922

"London Fire Brigade warned all 33 councils about the potential risks of external cladding on tower blocks in May this year, the BBC has learned.

It followed tests on panels from a high rise that suffered a fire last August."


----------



## 1290423

I think if the truth ever does come out relating to how the fire started some could be in for a shock, and yes I am fully aware was a faulty electrical appliance not disputing that the cladding didn't hasten the fire as we know it did. But did we get the full story?


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> @MollySmith: you are so right...not just here on PF, but in general...it is all finger pointing and apportioning blame on_ this_ organisation or _that_ organisation. A whole disaster being used to score political points IMHO (as was Jo Cox's murder...remember). The Tories being accused of ''murder'' by McDonell (even tho' the block which was destroyed was 40 years old and had several governments which could, but did not, check on it). Instead of hooting and hollering and shrieking 'May must go', get on and fix the places that need fixing and make sure people have somewhere safe to live. That's all...not luxury, just safety so that desperate people don't have to throw their babies out of a tenth floor window in a hope they will survive if someone catches them. I read that it would actually have cost little more to use the safer version of the cladding and that sprinklers would not have been expensive to install and that makes it all the more shameful that it was not done...not during the terms of any governments over 40 years.


Some people believe in holding governments & politicians to account - its actually very dangerous for our democracy not to.

Successive governments have played their part in deregulation but the point is since 2013 the Grenfell residents had REPEATEDLY warned of a major fire risk.

Nobody listened to them when they were alive.......


----------



## Elles

I would think it was a lot more than 2, they are just the public face. Letters were sent out to most of the campaign group. The letter warning about legal action was actually to do with the council taking space from them for a leisure centre. The group had said on their blog that the council were acting illegally (they probably were). They were told to take down the blog. It's all on there if we care to look.

It seems that fire risk was downplayed and swept under the carpet by councils, press, landlords and just about everyone else. 

The group had warned of fire risk on many occasions, especially after the other tower block fires. They had many complaints and issues, if you read the Grenfell blog it makes uncomfortable reading. It took Grenfell burning down for any of us to take any notice. Where were the newspaper headlines before this happened? 

I don't doubt for one minute that more than two of the Grenfell campaign group died in that fire. 

Plymouth promised to remove cladding from the 3 tower blocks affected within days and install sprinklers. The cladding will now not be removed until November. Im not sure when the sprinklers are being installed.

What's happening in the rest of the country? Is the tragedy fading from the public conscience and Brexit taking priority now? Are we leaving the government and councils to drag their heels?


----------



## Franksthename

Why worry about charging people like this just jail them for a few years 
Grenfell Tower: Man charged with fire death 'fraud' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40449956


----------



## 1290423

Stole this, and yes whilst I am in agreement that these poor people must be helped and those buildings need putting right but even so

FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
Birmingham pub bombings 1974.
Public Enquires denied by successive Governments, no public funding given to relatives or survivors. Private funding needed to force the post mortem to be re-opened.
Victims were mainly white, working class, born in Britain.
Hillsborough football tragedy 1989.
Public enquiries denied by successive Governments, no public funding given to relatives or survivors. Private funding needed to force an enquiry to be carried out.
Victims were mainly white, working class, born in Britain.
Cumbria flooding 2015
Over 900 families are displaced during major flooding. 300 businesses were destroyed. Of the families displaced, many were living in sports halls etc for more than 12 weeks after the flood, before being given temporary accommodation. Some 18 months later some families were still unable to move back into their homes due to damage. Bankruptcy in the area increase by 200% in the following year, with businesses going to the wall, self employed unable to work etc. Many families were forced to leave the area they were born in, as permanent accommodation could not be found in Cumbria jobs would be scarce due to rebuilding following flooding. No enquiry ever made into this, and limited public funds given to people who couldn't afford insurance.
Victims were mainly white, working class, born in Britain.
Grenfel Tower 2017.
Within 48 hours funding of £5500 is announced for victims and their families. Additional funding has been pledged to help with the aftermath, and to ensure that no hardship will be endured in the coming years. Promises are made that everyone effected will be permanently rehoused, within 4 weeks, in accommodation better than previous, in the immediate area so schools, jobs etc will not be disrupted.
A full public enquiry has been announced within 15 days of the accident, and promises made that this will be conducted swiftly, with "no stone left unturned"
Victims were mainly immigrant or refugee (99% were not born in Britain), some illegal, working status unknown.
Thanks to all the MP's sitting in the Houses of Parliament for caring.


----------



## 1290423

And to add to the above before anyone gets the wrong end of the stick,
Personally I am strongly opposed to anyone having to sleep on the streets, when I was in Peterborough the 1st two weeks of May I was pretty bored and spent hours speaking to the homeless, many of these were young white males, well not all but many, they all said pretty much the same that there is no help whatsoever for this group of people and they don't have a cat in hells chance of getting a home, one on the men told me a particular , I felt, said story as to why he were homeless, anyway back to the point, what I am really getting at is, not relating to just this group of people but of those whom I have copied about above who and how does anyone decide who has priority and why if they are going to act swiftly for one tragedy why not for all?


week of May


----------



## Elles

We didn't see babies thrown from a burning building and hear childrens' screams, or see a burly fireman crying his eyes out on the news, in those other incidents did we. Correlation does not equal causation.

I agree with the general sentiment.


----------



## noushka05

Good to see that arrogant swine Paget-Brown _finally_ resign!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Councils were pushed to brings costs down. Lets look at those who forced those cuts.
Not satisfied with punishment for council etc...


----------



## Elles

The news still isn't safe.  I didn't hurt those poor people, I really don't want to hear their distressing stories.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse

Elles said:


> The news still isn't safe.  I didn't hurt those poor people, I really don't want to hear their distressing stories.


I've been taking a news break I'm afraid. Coward I know but I needed some time away from it.


----------



## Siskin

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I've been taking a news break I'm afraid. Coward I know but I needed some time away from it.


Same here


----------



## Elles

I took a break. I thought they'd be onto the technical side and what's being done about it now, but they aren't. I feel like a coward too, but I don't want it in my head on a daily basis. It's not like it helps anyone. Back on a news break for me too.


----------



## Creativecat

Wow no
Posts today regarding the terrible tragedy . Seems events regarding who and who isn't being considered chairing this inquiry is such a hot potato for both sides I guess


----------



## 1290423

Well after listening to a live Interview this morning I wouldn't bet that lots of people are fuming and sick to the back teeth of hearing about it. One of the tenants, a refugee, was offered a flat but turned it down , his reason , at two miles it was too far from his daughters school and with two bedrooms it was too small.. If I had been interviewing my reply would have been well how far is it from your work place?
But there a fair few on the streets that would have snatched you right arm off for that. again that's all I'm saying because I am sick to death of all the do-gooders and all the bleeding hearts people need to be thankful for what they've got are not what they might get end of.
Yes it was terrible but lots of people suffer terrible experiences you just have to pick yourself up and try to move on think about the Horrors of all men in the many wars!


----------



## noushka05

*GeorgeMonbiot*‏@*GeorgeMonbiot* 9h9 hours ago

If you care about #*GrenfellTower*, please RT this. This scandal behind the scandal that I dug into is outrageous: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...stitch-up-red-tape-regulation-policy-exchange


----------



## MilleD

noushka05 said:


> Good to see that arrogant swine Paget-Brown _finally_ resign!


And the government has now set up a task force to run 'key services' at RBKC following their dismal response to the fire.


----------



## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> *GeorgeMonbiot*‏@*GeorgeMonbiot* 9h9 hours ago
> 
> If you care about #*GrenfellTower*, please RT this. This scandal behind the scandal that I dug into is outrageous: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...stitch-up-red-tape-regulation-policy-exchange


Terrible noush x


----------



## havoc

DT said:


> Yes it was terrible but lots of people suffer terrible experiences you just have to pick yourself up and try to move on think about the Horrors of all men in the many wars!


Have you been in one and suffer from PTSD? If so then your comment is fair but if not you really don't know what you're saying. I know some of the tenants want to be sorted with permanent housing straight off and this isn't what was promised. I know some of them are sounding like the most ungrateful, whining, entitled idiots. I get all of that, really I do. I also get what it feels like to have been through a horrific event and how it can affect you. Three weeks on they haven't recovered and their reactions to anything are not going to sound reasonable.


----------



## 1290423

havoc said:


> Have you been in one and suffer from PTSD? If so then your comment is fair but if not you really don't know what you're saying. I know some of the tenants want to be sorted with permanent housing straight off and this isn't what was promised. I know some of them are sounding like the most ungrateful, whining, entitled idiots. I get all of that, really I do. I also get what it feels like to have been through a horrific event and how it can affect you. Three weeks on they haven't recovered and their reactions to anything are not going to sound reasonable.


FACT They will never forget, ever, it will live just below the surface forever! Some will speak of it some wont, some will get worse but the past cannot be erased, try asking someone who has lost another human being from horrific injuries whilst trying to comfort them . But the past cant be erased, there ya go another fact for you!

And as for asking me to explain my experiences and. the cheek to make an opinion on my comments.
You have neither the right nor is it any of your business to ask me what experiences I have had so there's your answer and as for what I think of you and your opinions I couldn't give a monkey's so you now know that too comprende


----------



## havoc

DT said:


> And as for asking me to explain my experiences and. the cheek to make an opinion on my comments.


It isn't cheek at all. If you truly know what it's like you wouldn't expect sense or reason out of anyone who had been through such an experience so soon afterwards. You'd know it isn't possible.


----------



## SpringDance

DT said:


> And as for asking me to explain my experiences and. the cheek to make an opinion on my comments.
> You have neither the right nor is it any of your business to ask me what experiences I have had so there's your answer and as for what I think of you and your opinions I couldn't give a monkey's so you now know that too comprende


And yet you are judging the people who have gone through it and judging their actions. You know nothing about them or their reasons.

I can understand why they might not accept something 'not up to standard' or whatever their reason is. I'm sure they are concerned that once the attention has died down that they might be left there forgotten.


----------



## 1290423

SpringDance said:


> And yet you are judging the people who have gone through it and judging their actions. You know nothing about them or their reasons.
> 
> I can understand why they might not accept something 'not up to standard' or whatever their reason is. I'm sure they are concerned that once the attention has died down that they might be left there forgotten.


I'm judging no one but being as you are so compassionate you will obviously be aware of the amount of ex-servicemen we have sleeping on the streets please be so kind as to share with us that figure, and yes I am fully aware that the government did promise that all of these ex servicemen would be prioritised in the housing crisis, these promises have never been met I've said it before and I'll say it again no one should be homeless but how can anyone say that the Glenfield residents are of more importance, then the ex servicemen are and remember these are all mentally traumatised people. Then perhaps you would like to tell me how many ex servicemen commit suicide!


----------



## Elles

The people are turning down, or currently considering, temporary, not permanent spaces. It looks like they are being given the option of staying where they are, or moving into temporary housing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40496029


----------



## havoc

The Grenfell victims have gone through disaster shock, they're grieving for friends and neighbours even if they haven't lost any family members, those with children will be gripped with the need to try and protect them. There is next to nothing left in their lives which they control. It isn't their fault there's a housing crisis or that the current rules don't prioritise single men in general or ex servicemen in particular. Blaming one set of victims for the plight of another won't solve anything.


----------



## cheekyscrip

havoc said:


> The Grenfell victims have gone through disaster shock, they're grieving for friends and neighbours even if they haven't lost any family members, those with children will be gripped with the need to try and protect them. There is next to nothing left in their lives which they control. It isn't their fault there's a housing crisis or that the current rules don't prioritise single men in general or ex servicemen in particular. Blaming one set of victims for the plight of another won't solve anything.


But it is a nice way of pitching them against each other? "Divide and rule"?

This kind of trauma has life changing consequences, you might never, ever feel safe again.

Losing all personal belongings, losing your pets ..even if you are alive ...


----------



## Vanessa131

DT said:


> I'm judging no one but being as you are so compassionate you will obviously be aware of the amount of ex-servicemen we have sleeping on the streets please be so kind as to share with us that figure, and yes I am fully aware that the government did promise that all of these ex servicemen would be prioritised in the housing crisis, these promises have never been met I've said it before and I'll say it again no one should be homeless but how can anyone say that the Glenfield residents are of more importance, then the ex servicemen are and remember these are all mentally traumatised people. Then perhaps you would like to tell me how many ex servicemen commit suicide!


So the people of Grenfell chose to be in such a fire after being made aware of exactly what they were signing up for?


----------



## Elles

Vanessa131 said:


> So the people of Grenfell chose to be in such a fire after being made aware of exactly what they were signing up for?


You think a 17 year old who joins the forces to defend queen and country from terrorism and dictatorships who are using chemical weapons, know exactly what they're getting into and aren't affected by seeing their mate get their head blown off by an ied?

Or how about the fire officers involved? Did they know what they were signing up for? I guess they did. So it shouldn't affect them either.

I don't think we should set one kind of trauma up against another either. Traumatised Ex servicemen shouldn't be living on the street, but it's totally unconnected.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> I don't think we should set one kind of trauma up against another either. Traumatised Ex servicemen shouldn't be living on the street, but it's totally unconnected.


Exactly.

I do think the emergence of 24 hour rolling news channels has a lot to answer for. They have to fill the time and it's led to news reporters trying to make news and offer opinion rather than just report it. Sadly the BBC is one of the worst offenders. Recently I've been listening to 'Our man in the Middle East' on radio 4. The difference between the old style, factual commentary of Jeremy Bowen and the rubbish spouted from today's reporters is stark.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> You think a 17 year old who joins the forces to defend queen and country from terrorism and dictatorships who are using chemical weapons, know exactly what they're getting into and aren't affected by seeing their mate get their head blown off by an ied?
> 
> Or how about the fire officers involved? Did they know what they were signing up for? I guess they did. So it shouldn't affect them either.
> 
> I don't think we should set one kind of trauma up against another either. Traumatised Ex servicemen shouldn't be living on the street, but it's totally unconnected.


Sorry elles this reply in not aimed at you but the person specifically who suggested s that the military know what they are signing up for and therefore they don't matter!

Let me remind you if they didn't sign up we would be back to conscription for staters, . And let me remind you we have lost two Generations a fit healthy man many who didn't want to fight! You, should be hanging your head in shame for even thinking that alone saying it. 
But, that sajd 
! My point was the 2010-2015 government convenant whereby ex servicemen were promised priority housing every single council signed up to this, yet not single council has adhered to it! So I will say again why should two groups of people both likely to be suffering PMSD both having suffered horrifically be prioritized over the other?


----------



## 1290423

Vanessa131 said:


> So the people of Grenfell chose to be in such a fire after being made aware of exactly what they were signing up for?


As does anyone using the underground? Or going to a pop concert!


----------



## havoc

DT said:


> As does anyone using the underground? Or going to a pop concert


Completely different and I say that from a position of personal involvement with one of those. The term 'broken' with reference to a human being is one I now understand. These people have somewhere they feel safe to start to mend - home. I can't begin to explain how much that matters because until recently I wouldn't, couldn't have realised it myself.


----------



## 1290423

Elles said:


> I don't think we should set one kind of trauma up against another either. Traumatised Ex servicemen shouldn't be living on the street, but it's totally unconnected.


Unconnected? Ok let's try it another way every single council in the UK have signed up to a covenant promising to house ex-military first not one single council have adhered to this.

Similar promises have rightfully been made to the grenfall residents yes the tragic circumstances surrounding this are horrific hopefully something we will never ever see again.

So my question is why should the government, any government, be made to keep this pledge to one section of society yet not the other?

I am not familiar with correct figures but believe the last suggested count was around 7000 ex serviceman on the streets with around 40 suicides a year. 
anyone who finds this acceptable in my view doesn't deserve to even breathe


----------



## 1290423

havoc said:


> Completely different and I say that from a position of personal involvement with one of those. The term 'broken' with reference to a human being is one I now understand. These people have somewhere they feel safe to start to mend - home. I can't begin to explain how much that matters because until recently I wouldn't, couldn't have realised it myself.


Are you the only person who has any connection to any person affected by tragedy then?


----------



## 1290423

havoc said:


> Completely different and I say that from a position of personal involvement with one of those. The term 'broken' with reference to a human being is one I now understand. These people have somewhere they feel safe to start to mend - home. I can't begin to explain how much that matters because until recently I wouldn't, couldn't have realised it myself.


And where exactly did I quote what you said as I can't find it?


----------



## havoc

DT said:


> Are you the only person who has any connection to any person affected by tragedy then


Of course not and every person who does will have come to an understanding they didn't have before. We learn through experience and recent experience has shown me how important home is as place of safety people retreat to after a traumatic event. The Grenfell victims don't have that.


----------



## Elles

DT said:


> So I will say again why should two groups of people both likely to be suffering PMSD both having suffered horrifically be prioritized over the other?


They shouldn't.

What should councils be doing? If a single male fireman has to give up work after Grenfell because of mental trauma, will he be given somewhere to live by the council? Single males are expected to work and look after themselves. If your social housing burns down, you can expect to be rehomed. So that's the starting point. Ex servicemen with families are housed and given benefits. If an ex serviceman was living in Grenfell he'll be rehomed too.

What do you expect the government to do? Leave the Grenfell survivors on the streets? Deport any that weren't born in the UK? House them in the next available property regardless of where, or what it is and who's waiting for it? Treat them the same as a family who have been evicted for nuisance and vandalism? Or is your problem that they shouldn't have been living there in the first place? Single Ex servicemen/women should be prioritised for social housing and 'foreigners' shouldn't be entitled?

How Grenfell survivors are, or should be treated, is entirely unconnected to how other groups should, or are being treated.

I would say that maybe the government could build high rise flats for single ex servicemen who have suffered trauma to rent when they leave the forces. Or maybe there could be shared housing, with in house specialists rather like a women's refuge? They would need to be as secret, or you might as well paint a target on the wall with a big arrow and a notice saying terrorists and anti army activists strike here. It's a thought though. Maybe a combination? Ex police, fire and health and aid workers who have suffered trauma, but are single and not entitled to housing could be offered places too. Maybe on a temporary basis while they get treatment and get back on their feet. There are many deserving sections of society.

Grenfell is a special case. Social housing burned to the ground, because of failings by experts and other parties who are paid to protect us. Criminal negligence, not circumstance.

Sorry.


----------



## MiffyMoo

DT said:


> Unconnected? Ok let's try it another way every single council in the UK have signed up to a covenant promising to house ex-military first not one single council have adhered to this.
> 
> Similar promises have rightfully been made to the grenfall residents yes the tragic circumstances surrounding this are horrific hopefully something we will never ever see again.
> 
> So my question is why should the government, any government, be made to keep this pledge to one section of society yet not the other?
> 
> I am not familiar with correct figures but believe the last suggested count was around 7000 ex serviceman on the streets with around 40 suicides a year.
> anyone who finds this acceptable in my view doesn't deserve to even breathe


Yup, about 7000, which is so wrong in every single way.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/76...enant-army-navy-RAF-Homes-for-Heroes-campaign


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> Yup, about 7000, which is so wrong in every single way.
> 
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/76...enant-army-navy-RAF-Homes-for-Heroes-campaign


Dont be daft miffy! They knew what they were signing up to


----------



## shadowmare

MiffyMoo said:


> Yup, about 7000, which is so wrong in every single way.
> 
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/76...enant-army-navy-RAF-Homes-for-Heroes-campaign


I always get confused with these articles (on top of them making me twitch with all the emotive language shoves in there). Who do we count as veterans? People who served on the actual field? People who served in the army all their lives? People who served for several years and then went on to do something else? Because these articles seem to always switch between talking about "veterans" and people "with service history" or "who served in the army". Would a single male who served in the army for 6 years 13 years ago is considered more important due to those 6 years than let's say a single mother who has 2 children?


----------



## Elles

Of course being the sceptic that I am, I had to check the figures and what is being done. The numbers are inflated of course, I expected that. The numbers aren't of people sleeping rough. They include people in guest houses, b&bs that sort of thing. By forces personnel they include immigrants who have fought in foreign armies. They are the majority of ex servicemen who are homeless in the uk. The numbers include people who left the army years ago, suffered no trauma, but are homeless due to recent events, divorce etc. There are a number of charities and schemes available to ex servicemen.

Don't get me wrong, one traumatised ex soldier sleeping rough is one too many, but we can help and people do. There could be more done, councils need to follow the directives and personnel need pointing in the right direction to get help. But they aren't totally abandoned and ignored as a group. Tbh I would expect ex and current forces who aren't down on their luck to help at least with donations to one or more of the charities set up to help.


----------



## 1290423

shadowmare said:


> I always get confused with these articles (on top of them making me twitch with all the emotive language shoves in there). Who do we count as veterans? People who served on the actual field? People who served in the army all their lives? People who served for several years and then went on to do something else? Because these articles seem to always switch between talking about "veterans" and people "with service history" or "who served in the army". Would a single male who served in the army for 6 years 13 years ago is considered more important due to those 6 years than let's say a single mother who has 2 children?


It wasn't about necessarily who is the more important my point is that promises were made to serving armed forces regarding housing, as they have been rightfully so to the grenfall victims. Like the grenfall victims many ex servicemen suffer pmds . The promises made to these men were never kept! And are never likely to be.


----------



## 1290423

Firstly, to those of you who don't quiet see it through the eyes of some, I have been bad and copied this! Yes! Many many ex forces relationships end in divorce, I KNOW! wonder why that could be. 
This is no one I know I add, but how do you think anyone lives with, lets just say something like,this? And yes, every story is different! Maybe @bordie can give us a few examples.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/18/collateral-damage-ex-soldiers-living-with-ptsd


----------



## MiffyMoo

shadowmare said:


> I always get confused with these articles (on top of them making me twitch with all the emotive language shoves in there). Who do we count as veterans? People who served on the actual field? People who served in the army all their lives? People who served for several years and then went on to do something else? Because these articles seem to always switch between talking about "veterans" and people "with service history" or "who served in the army". Would a single male who served in the army for 6 years 13 years ago is considered more important due to those 6 years than let's say a single mother who has 2 children?


Can they not be equally important?

I agree about emotive language, and I did cringe a little at having to post the Express


----------



## MiffyMoo

Elles said:


> Of course being the sceptic that I am, I had to check the figures and what is being done. The numbers are inflated of course, I expected that. The numbers aren't of people sleeping rough. They include people in guest houses, b&bs that sort of thing. By forces personnel they include immigrants who have fought in foreign armies. They are the majority of ex servicemen who are homeless in the uk. The numbers include people who left the army years ago, suffered no trauma, but are homeless due to recent events, divorce etc. There are a number of charities and schemes available to ex servicemen.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, one traumatised ex soldier sleeping rough is one too many, but we can help and people do. There could be more done, councils need to follow the directives and personnel need pointing in the right direction to get help. But they aren't totally abandoned and ignored as a group. Tbh I would expect ex and current forces who aren't down on their luck to help at least with donations to one or more of the charities set up to help.


By foreign soldiers, do they mean any ex soldier, or do they mean soldiers like the Gurkhas?


----------



## 1290423

MiffyMoo said:


> Can they not be equally important?
> 
> I agree about emotive language, and I did cringe a little at having to post the Express


Fact if miffy some say that figure is over inflated that's so not true, the powers that be have always tried to cover up that figure and always will!


----------



## MiffyMoo

DT said:


> Fact if miffy some say that figure is over inflated that's so not true, the powers that be have always tried to cover up that figure and always will!


It is an embarrassment


----------



## shadowmare

DT said:


> Firstly, to those of you who don't quiet see it through the eyes of some, I have been bad and copied this! Yes! Many many ex forces relationships end in divorce, I KNOW! wonder why that could be.
> This is no one I know I add, but how do you think anyone lives with, lets just say something like,this? And yes, every story is different! Maybe @bordie can give us a few examples.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/18/collateral-damage-ex-soldiers-living-with-ptsd


My uncle retired from the army 7 years ago, My mother retired from the army 2 years ago. My father is still in the army and has another year to go. He lead a mission in Afghanistan back in 2005 and it was the hardest time my family lived through (can you imagine the stress when the weekly email your father/husband usually sends is 4 days late and there is no way of getting in touch?). My father's best friend's family fell apart and he hung himself within a year after the group was back in Lithuania. I know plenty of army life, PTSD etc. My grandfather served in the USSR army but for 25 years I knew him as an alcoholic. He was lucky to have a flat that he couldn't just exchange for a bottle of vodka. I don't think any of my military family are any more or less deserving of housing compared to anyone else. A decent pension when they retire? Yes, depending on their job and rank the same way as for people in any other jobs.


----------



## MiffyMoo

shadowmare said:


> My uncle retired from the army 7 years ago, My mother retired from the army 2 years ago. My father is still in the army and has another year to go. He lead a mission in Afghanistan back in 2005 and it was the hardest time my family lived through (can you imagine the stress when the weekly email your father/husband usually sends is 4 days late and there is no way of getting in touch?). My father's best friend's family fell apart and he hung himself within a year after the group was back in Lithuania. I know plenty of army life, PTSD etc. My grandfather served in the USSR army but for 25 years I knew him as an alcoholic. He was lucky to have a flat that he couldn't just exchange for a bottle of vodka. I don't think any of my military family are any more or less deserving of housing compared to anyone else. A decent pension when they retire? Yes, depending on their job and rank the same way as for people in any other jobs.


Oh God, I'm so sorry. I disagree insofar as I think that someone who is willing to put their life on the line to defend us deserves a bit more gratitude than, say, an accountant. I'm not saying every person isn't important, but I think we have a higher debt of gratitude to some


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## Elles

MiffyMoo said:


> By foreign soldiers, do they mean any ex soldier, or do they mean soldiers like the Gurkhas?


They mean any. Not just served in the British army, served in any country's army. I looked at a couple of the charities and they say this kind of reporting doesn't help.

PTSD is a problem that is slowly being recognised. I agree that a lot more needs to be done to help soldiers return to civvy life and to diagnose mental illness, especially before they get themselves into trouble. The MOD has historically been keen to play it down, or deny it, as have some proud soldiers. It shouldn't be used as an excuse by personnel who have never seen action either.

That doesn't make it right for the rags to wind people up with numbers like 7000, or 9000 and imply that every soldier who leaves the army is a nutter ready to explode any second and sleeping on the streets, totally abandoned by everyone, when it's just not true.

It's a bit like ADHD getting an actual and accurate diagnosis and treatment can take years and be very difficult. It shouldn't be. This country's general history with any mental health issues isn't very good. That includes for that of its military personnel.


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## havoc

shadowmare said:


> I don't think any of my military family are any more or less deserving of housing compared to anyone else. A decent pension when they retire? Yes, depending on their job and rank the same way as for people in any other jobs


I can't think of a single serving or ex service friend who would think anything different. I've been hoping someone with proper connection would post and you've said exactly what I'd expect from someone with real knowledge. I grew up in and spent much of my married life in the forces.


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## shadowmare

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh God, I'm so sorry. I disagree insofar as I think that someone who is willing to put their life on the line to defend us deserves a bit more gratitude than, say, an accountant. I'm not saying every person isn't important, but I think we have a higher debt of gratitude to some


But not all positions in the army are equal either. Not everyone in the army are there because they want to defend the country and not all the jobs there are anywhere near. I hate how little my uncle is getting now he's retired (less than minimum wage in uk) but at the same time, while him and my dad served in the similar army context when they were young (Russian army before Lithuania became independent), after that my dad continued to progress through ranks and is now a Colonel (next and last rank would be General) while my uncle stayed very far below that. My dad sacrificed a lot for this, including seeing me grow up as between me turning 7 and 16 I only saw my dad on Christmas and Easter because of the military training he attended in other countries. 
I appreciate the importance of the problem of homeless *veterans *but I just hate how these sort of articles always seem to be written with a purpose of saying "we can't be helping such and such because look at all of these veterans" "we are spending money on x y z, but our veterans are starving". In that article they point out how refugees are given homes while "veterans" are not. I now have a case of a family with a 3yo and a 1yo child. The father in this case was held captive and tortured on two occasions for a month at a time. If this was happening 10 years ago and I was back home, I'd rather they got the 2 bedroom flat than my grandfather just because he served in the army for a few years 40 years ago... nothing against you here Miffy, just personal experience makes my blood boil about articles like these and how they are used.


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## shadowmare

havoc said:


> I can't think of a single serving or ex service friend who would think anything different. I've been hoping someone with proper connection would post and you've said exactly what I'd expect from someone with real knowledge. I grew up in and spent much of my married life in the forces.


I just hate hearing this stuff as it is 99% of the time spread by people whose closest contact with military was toy soldiers.


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## shadowmare

havoc said:


> I can't think of a single serving or ex service friend who would think anything different. I've been hoping someone with proper connection would post and you've said exactly what I'd expect from someone with real knowledge. I grew up in and spent much of my married life in the forces.


I just hate hearing this stuff as it is 99% of the time spread by people whose closest contact with military was toy soldiers.


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## 1290423

havoc said:


> I can't think of a single serving or ex service friend who would think anything different. I've been hoping someone with proper connection would post and you've said exactly what I'd expect from someone with real knowledge. I grew up in and spent much of my married life in the forces.


Awh that is more then likely right! But perhaps those left behind when their 42 year old son commits suicide dont quiet feel the same!
Because people can neither specify nor spell out why they believe something is not always possible!


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## MilleD

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh God, I'm so sorry. I disagree insofar as I think that someone who is willing to put their life on the line to defend us deserves a bit more gratitude than, say, *an accountant*. I'm not saying every person isn't important, but I think we have a higher debt of gratitude to some


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## Elles

DT said:


> Awh that is more then likely right! But perhaps those left behind when their 42 year old son commits suicide dont quiet feel the same!
> Because people can neither specify nor spell out why they believe something is not always possible!


I'll let you know if one of my sons commits suicide. I don't think I'll compare it to what happened at Grenfell though. Sorry.

I agree that ex or current military should get help and counselling for ptsd where needed and that it's not always easy to get, or to persuade them it's needed tbh.


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## havoc

I think that's a bit harsh Elles. There is no comparison but then the whole point of what we've been saying is that no one tragedy should be set above another and a life lost for any reason is one too many.


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## Elles

havoc said:


> I think that's a bit harsh Elles. There is no comparison but then the whole point of what we've been saying is that no one tragedy should be set above another and a life lost for any reason is one too many.


Harsh? Maybe, but with one son currently serving and another recently home, I'm not keen on being told how I'll feel if one of them commits suicide when they're 42.


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## MiffyMoo

MilleD said:


>


Haha, oops!


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## 1290423

Elles said:


> I'll let you know if one of my sons commits suicide. I don't think I'll compare it to what happened at Grenfell though. Sorry.
> .


Why on earth would you want to do that?


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## 1290423

havoc said:


> I think that's a bit harsh Elles. There is no comparison but then the whole point of what we've been saying is that no one tragedy should be set above another and a life lost for any reason is one too many.


Phew finally!


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## 1290423

Elles said:


> Harsh? Maybe, but with one son currently serving and another recently home, I'm not keen on being told how I'll feel if one of them commits suicide when they're 42.
> 
> So who told you that?


So who told you that?


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## havoc

DT said:


> Phew finally!


Don't hold your breath DT. We're talking about survivors three weeks post trauma. A bit of patience and understanding being needed is where I was coming from - not anger because they might get something someone else didn't.


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## Elles

I th


DT said:


> Why on earth would you want to do that?


i thought that's what you're saying? That you begrudge the Grenfell survivors their special treatment, because our soldiers don't get it? Then when people disagreed you said if your soldier son commits suicide you'll feel differently. I'm saying as the mother of two soldiers, one current, one ex, I disagree.


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## 1290423

Elles said:


> I th
> 
> i thought that's what you're saying? That you begrudge the Grenfell survivors their special treatment, because our soldiers don't get it? Then when people disagreed you said if your soldier son commits suicide you'll feel differently. I'm saying as the mother of two soldiers, one current, one ex, I disagree.


No I didnt?? I was trying to emphasize that non of us can put ourselves into the other persons shoes and to know how they feel that their tragedy is just as raw, to that other person their loss will always feel worse and people always look somewhere to lay the blame, just like we have with grenfill I.e the government


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## Guest

ALL victims must be helped. Grenfell survivors, as they are victims of criminal negligence By the state/local authorities. Soldiers too must get what they were promised. Even the idea that one should choose between the victims is outrageous. Or the idea that you should "rank" the victims By their nationality, occupation, age, gender, wealth or whatever, is just not on. ALL must be treated fairly and take care of. Doctors don´t choose their patient. They treat all and only the type of injury affects their priority.


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## havoc

DT said:


> to that other person their loss will always feel worse and *people always look somewhere to lay the blame*


Because anger is a much easier emotion to deal with than grief.


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## Dr Pepper

No one case is more deserving than another. It's just what hits, and stays, in the headlines. There's some 39,000 house fires every year (I've been one of those and left "homeless" for three months). In 2015 294 people died in house fires. These people and their families are largely ignored by the press and politicians. Grenfall Tower was tragic, but for each and every survivor, and relatives of those who died, it was no more tragic than those 294 that no one hears about. I don't believe anyone from Grenfall Tower is "homeless", they've all got temporary accommodation ( we had that for three months) with permanent being offered far more quickly than most get.

There shouldn't be special treatment, but unfortunately it does seem to happen many times because of the media.

If your ex military, a cleaner, banker, illegal immigrant or dog walker the end result is the same.


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## havoc

Dr Pepper said:


> There's some 39,000 house fires every year


And for every one of those I'd have little sympathy for those owners who didn't hold appropriate buildings insurance. If it's rented property then standard tenancy agreements hold that the landlord is responsible for finding/providing appropriate alternative accommodation in the event of the property being rendered uninhabitable by fire. Maybe private landlords are held to a higher standard but it's unlikely.


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## Elles

I think the main thing with Grenfell was that so many died and so many suffered trauma as a result and it was negligence by public bodies that caused it. A 'normal' house fire usually only gets reported in the local press and factually, not hysterically. I knew the press lied, exaggerated and underplayed depending on their agenda, but don't you think it's got worse recently? Could it be that they're competing with social media? Or am I wrong?


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## 1290423

shadowmare said:


> My uncle retired from the army 7 years ago, My mother retired from the army 2 years ago. My father is still in the army and has another year to go. He lead a mission in Afghanistan back in 2005 and it was the hardest time my family lived through (can you imagine the stress when the weekly email your father/husband usually sends is 4 days late and there is no way of getting in touch?). My father's best friend's family fell apart and he hung himself within a year after the group was back in Lithuania. I know plenty of army life, PTSD etc. My grandfather served in the USSR army but for 25 years I knew him as an alcoholic. He was lucky to have a flat that he couldn't just exchange for a bottle of vodka. I don't think any of my military family are any more or less deserving of housing compared to anyone else. A decent pension when they retire? Yes, depending on their job and rank the same way as for people in any other jobs.


@shadowmare

Im a little older then you maybe, my father and both of his brothers spent much of their life in the army my father signed up for World War II when he was 18 and consequently his service years were doubled, he reached a higher rank was reported missing believed dead in France but did return with gunshot wounds to the leg he never really spoke of the war though. 
, but I recall happy memories why my father used to return with his kit when I was a. child . Both of my uncle's on my dad's side too both served one in the Navy the other in the army. I can go back further than that far back as my great uncles, and great great uncles , all military one in particular I am going to name for a reaSon, obviously I never met this uncle as he was killed long before I was born his body was never recovered however his name is on the war memorial at ropsey where they had just had the service in Remembrance of those killed in action.
His names towards to bottom George Wiiliam Willows my gran often spoke of hi

And if I start on the in laws side it gets worse, we had pows on that side, the father in law-dying aged 60 due to being left with week heart due to yellow fever I think it was.
I can come more up to date if you like with Northern Ireland and Argentina!

Anyway, I didn't mention wars or soldiers to remind people, I was using armed forces as an examples of a section of so iety who have been let down thats all

NOW WHAT WERE YOU SAYING ABOUT TOY SOILDERS?


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## havoc

Elles said:


> I think the main thing with Grenfell was that so many died and so many suffered trauma as a result and it was negligence by public bodies that caused it.


Not for me it isn't - at least not yet though that will come. Currently I'm only concerned on a human/humanitarian level. This discussion went in this direction because there are press reports designed to inflame as traumatised individuals are not acting in a rational manner. However the Grenfell survivors are acting, each and every one of them, all different, it's only to be expected and not one of them should have fingers pointed at them for being unreasonable.


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## 1290423

havoc said:


> And for every one of those I'd have little sympathy for those owners who didn't hold appropriate buildings insurance. If it's rented property then standard tenancy agreements hold that the landlord is responsible for finding/providing appropriate alternative accommodation in the event of the property being rendered uninhabitable by fire. Maybe private landlords are held to a higher standard but it's unlikely.


I dont agree with that always, insurance companies are known to look for any little loophole to wriggle out of and underpay, t
There are instances where items are exempt or clauses added sometimes people overlook their annual renewal due to holidays or other issues I know I have once not that this course the problem I add


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## 1290423

havoc said:


> Not for me it isn't - at least not yet though that will come. Currently I'm only concerned on a human/humanitarian level. This discussion went in this direction because there are press reports designed to inflame as traumatised individuals are not acting in a rational manner. However the Grenfell survivors are acting, each and every one of them, all different, it's only to be expected and not one of them should have fingers pointed at them for being unreasonable.


But my point is, that some will be. And because of that it does not make that person wrong, nor do they deserve to have their tragedy undermined, to them their tragedy is just as raw, their situation as dire.


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## 1290423

Anyway think im going to draw that proverbial line on this one.
Xxxxxxxx


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## Elles

havoc said:


> Not for me it isn't - at least not yet though that will come. Currently I'm only concerned on a human/humanitarian level. This discussion went in this direction because there are press reports designed to inflame as traumatised individuals are not acting in a rational manner. However the Grenfell survivors are acting, each and every one of them, all different, it's only to be expected and not one of them should have fingers pointed at them for being unreasonable.


I mean the reason for all the attention, particularly from the press. If it was a family dying in a house fire, or no one dying in a gas explosion, there wouldn't be the hysteria and reporting around it. I feel that the survivors are acting rationally to be fair. They don't want to move into temporary housing, from temporary accommodation, then move again when permanent accommodation is eventually found. Sounds quite reasonable to me. Maybe I'm on my own.


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## Dr Pepper

havoc said:


> And for every one of those I'd have little sympathy for those owners who didn't hold appropriate buildings insurance. If it's rented property then standard tenancy agreements hold that the landlord is responsible for finding/providing appropriate alternative accommodation in the event of the property being rendered uninhabitable by fire. Maybe private landlords are held to a higher standard but it's unlikely.


But what's insurance got to do with it? Grenfall have been put up in temporary accommodation and are being offered new accommodation. If they lost all their belongings then there's no reason they couldn't have taken out contents insurance.

So you have little sympathies for those at Grenfall that lost all their belongs if they didn't insure?


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## havoc

Dr Pepper said:


> So you have little sympathies for those at Grenfall that lost all their belongs if they didn't insure


Certainly less on that particular aspect of their plight. That won't come up though unless one of them complains they didn't get given a voucher for Harrods to replace their belongings. At that point I'll be right there suggesting they don't have reason to moan - as long as I'm sure the report is accurate


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## Dr Pepper

havoc said:


> Certainly less on that particular aspect of their plight. That won't come up though unless one of them complains they didn't get given a voucher for Harrods to replace their belongings. At that point I'll be right there suggesting they don't have reason to moan - as long as I'm sure the report is accurate


That's good, so actually you admit those at Grenfall were actually better provided for than a homeowner? As a homeowner left homeless by fire there is no support groups, committees looking out for you, charities being set up, donations being raised, MP's or PM's turning up offering help. It's up to you and your insurer to batttle it out, and in the immediate circumstances that means YOU, if you have no cash that means sleeping outside and not havinging a immedaite roof over your head wherever it might be. At least if you are a council tennant you know accommodation will be provided.

I can sympathies with the Grenfall survivors as much, if not more, than most. But they've had far more help than 39,000 others and homeless ex-forces.


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## 1290423

Dr Pepper said:


> But what's insurance got to do with it? Grenfall have been put up in temporary accommodation and are being offered new accommodation. If they lost all their belongings then there's no reason they couldn't have taken out contents insurance.
> 
> So you have little sympathies for those at Grenfall that lost all their belongs if they didn't insure?


Totally agree, and to add we have never rented residential accommodation but we have rented business and everywhere we have rented we have as per the terms of the lease at to have adequate insurance. which obviously as a legitimate business we always had anyway


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## 1290423

Oops sorry I forgot I had drawn a line


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## Dr Pepper

DT said:


> Oops sorry I forgot I had drawn a line


 do like I do and draw them in pencil and always carry an eraser!


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## havoc

Dr Pepper said:


> That's good, so actually you admit those at Grenfall were actually better provided for than a homeowner


I can't answer for every individual homeowner or their chosen insurance but the Grenfell survivors have been provided for in exactly the manner I am required to provide for my tenants in similar circumstances.


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## Dr Pepper

havoc said:


> I can't answer for every individual homeowner or their chosen insurance but the Grenfell survivors have been provided for in exactly the manner I am required to provide for my tenants in similar circumstances.


Good, so they don't have real issues over other fire victims. We agree.


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## havoc

Dr Pepper said:


> Good, so they don't have real issues over other fire victims. We agree


None at all over others in which 20 - 25% of the residents perished (choose your own figure if you think mine is excessive), escape was ridiculously difficult and in which all their neighbours are in the same situation.


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## 1290423

havoc said:


> Certainly less on that particular aspect of their plight. That won't come up though unless one of them complains they didn't get given a voucher for Harrods to replace their belongings. At that point I'll be right there suggesting they don't have reason to moan - as long as I'm sure the report is accurate


But! Hang on or do we have to adhere to your two tier system here?sounds about right! 
Those who own their homes if the lose everything and have no insurance tough!
Yet if in those in rented without adequate insurance for contents lose it all its nah mind the government with replace it!
Is that your line of thinking?


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## havoc

DT said:


> But! Hang on or do we have to adhere to your two tier system here?sounds about right!
> Those who own their homes if the lose everything and have no insurance tough!
> Yet if in those in rented without adequate insurance for contents lose it all its nah mind the government with replace it!
> Is that your line of thinking?


No. I said I'll have less sympathy on the contents issue for the uninsured. Renters should insure their own possessions, the landlord is responsible for the building.


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## Little-moomin

I live minutes from Grenfell, seen the building, it's such a shock.


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## noushka05

Homeless soldiers, the Grenfell tragedy are just two examples that our society is failing to protect the most vulnerable. We are one of the wealthiest countries on the planet. No one should be sleeping rough, all homes should be safe for habitation. Blame those who have the power not those who have none.


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## noushka05

MilleD said:


> And the government has now set up a task force to run 'key services' at RBKC following their dismal response to the fire.


I only hope they look at the bigger picture. I do fear the worst though, particularly after reading George Monbiot's expose.


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## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Homeless soldiers.


Are surplus to requirement.

They've served their purpose and now the government has no more use of them.


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## havoc

noushka05 said:


> Homeless soldiers,


There's no such thing - homeless ex soldiers. I do think a previous post asking for a definition of the term was fair point where priority is concerned. It was never meant to be a card which can be played repeatedly or years after leaving the forces.


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## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Are surplus to requirement.
> 
> They've served their purpose and now the government has no more use of them.


And the virtue signalling of a government that praises our armed forces then snatches away their benefits is truly sickening.

*When Theresa May tells you Tories respect the armed forces, remember the veterans who died after benefits sanctions*
Marine veteran Gordon Lang died from cancer after the state stripped his benefits and told him to find a job despite being terminally ill. Army veteran David Clapson died unable to afford food or electricity after having his Jobseeker's Allowance stopped

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...es-veterans-died-after-benefits-a7400751.html


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## noushka05

havoc said:


> There's no such thing - homeless ex soldiers. I do think a previous post asking for a definition of the term was fair point where priority is concerned. It was never meant to be a card which can be played repeatedly or years after leaving the forces.


A lot of ex service man are struggling to get by because of changes to disability payments though Havoc, I believe 1 in 10 homeless are ex service men. Even the mail reported about it - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...it-Governments-controversial-assessments.html


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## 1290423

havoc said:


> There's no such thing - homeless ex soldiers. I do think a previous post asking for a definition of the term was fair point where priority is concerned. It was never meant to be a card which can be played repeatedly or years after leaving the forces.


Which card would that be then?

You Hang on a minute we know soldiers don't leave the forces automatically homeless they are homeless because they cannot settle back into normal civilian life their relationships break down try try reading some of the experiences they have I posted one above about an ex soldier hiding in a dustbin when a family gathering was going on many cannot live through the Horrors they experience from their past.

A government covanant was signed by every single council in the UK to give priority to ex forces regarding social housing not one single Council has adhered to this. you claim to be so sympathetic to pmsd you continually bang on about how this is going to affect the Glenfield residence for the rest of their lives yet you appear to be completely dismissing it when the military is mentioned. your two tier system raises its Ugly Head again I fear.


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## havoc

Noush I'm not trying to have a go at those who end up homeless - for goodness sake we're an ex military family and know the problems only too well. Family breakdown is a perfect example - if (Iknow it's a big 'if) a family is housed soon after leaving the forces has that council fulfilled its obligation? I would say it has. If two years down the line that couple split - for whatever reason and the ex serviceman is now homeless while the family stay in the property should he be a priority? Is he now just another single male, let down horrendously by mental health services among others or does he have priority all over again? For how long and how many times can he take priority? It's a question which shouldn't have to be asked I agree. In a perfect world it wouldn't arise but our electorate doesn't want to pay for a perfect world.


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## Elles

Don't soldiers prepare for the time they leave, or do they all expect instant handouts and free homes? Someone injured, physically or mentally should get the help they need, but I don't agree that everyone leaving the army should get a free ride for life, nor do they.

The problem here isn't ex soldiers, the problem is how disabled, elderly, mentally ill, homeless etc are treated.

It's not just that the electorate don't want to pay for a perfect world, there are different ideas of perfect and different levels of working for it. It's not just the rich, the innocent poor aren't always so innocent either. How much money you have, isn't an indication of moral standing.


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## havoc

Elles said:


> The problem here isn't ex soldiers, the problem is how disabled, elderly, mentally ill, homeless etc are treated.


Absolutely it is but I suppose it's easier to blame one agency at a time rather than see the bigger picture.


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## noushka05

havoc said:


> Noush I'm not trying to have a go at those who end up homeless - for goodness sake we're an ex military family and know the problems only too well. Family breakdown is a perfect example - if (Iknow it's a big 'if) a family is housed soon after leaving the forces has that council fulfilled its obligation? I would say it has. If two years down the line that couple split - for whatever reason and the ex serviceman is now homeless while the family stay in the property should he be a priority? Is he now just another single male, let down horrendously by mental health services among others or does he have priority all over again? For how long and how many times can he take priority? It's a question which shouldn't have to be asked I agree. In a perfect world it wouldn't arise but our electorate doesn't want to pay for a perfect world.


I realise that Havoc & I accept your point x. I just think that society is failing all these vulnerable people & many of the reasons for that could be addressed if there was political will. As one of the wealthiest countries on the planet,I don't think anyone should be afraid to go to sleep at night for fear of burning to death nor should soldiers be sleeping on the streets (or indeed anyone). We should be moving forwards, address the root causes - the mental health crisis, the housing crisis. More & more people are falling through the welfare safety net. We can always find the money for bad things, redirect it to improve our society & help people.


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## 1290423




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## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> I realise that Havoc & I accept your point x. I just think that society is failing all these vulnerable people & many of the reasons for that could be addressed if there was political will. As one of the wealthiest countries on the planet,I don't think anyone should be afraid to go to sleep at night for fear of burning to death nor should soldiers be sleeping on the streets (or indeed anyone). We should be moving forwards, address the root causes - the mental health crisis, the housing crisis. More & more people are falling through the welfare safety net. We can always find the money for bad things, redirect it to improve our society & help people.


Heck noush, just noticed you posted above me would hate you to think I was speaking to you so ive deleted it

,


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## noushka05

DT said:


> Heck noush, just noticed you posted above me would hate you to think I was speaking to you so ive deleted it
> 
> ,


I didn't see it. Was it that bad? lol


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## 1290423

noushka05 said:


> I didn't see it. Was it that bad? lol


Nah! Very subtle. 

As a brick xxx


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## white_shadow

*"The 21st floor"*

'Just noticed on BBC news site.....a profoundly in-depth and intense piece on this tragedy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Grenfell_21st_floor


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## noushka05

.
Its like the Grenfell victims have been swept under the carpet


----------

