# Desperately seeking advice -- very agressive pup



## Gordo (Mar 2, 2009)

Lily is a nearly 6 month cocker.

We've been having a few problems with her recently with increasing agression, so much so we took her to the vet to be checked over and have now been referred to a dog behaviourist, who's coming to see us on Thursday this week.

However, we're very concerned how we are going to get to Thursday.

She has bitten hubby twice and me once -- bought blood to hubby and I've got a bruise on my thigh (thank goodness I was wearing jeans). 

Last night we took Lily out for a walk, and when we got home went to take her lead off to which she did growl to warn us off but then still went for me, hence the bruise. We left her lead on last night and this morning, I've taken it off her no problems. However, she doesn't always warn us off and will go straight for the bite, this is how hubby got his bite on the leg which made him bleed.

We have tried so many different things as advised on here, one being ignoring her, but then she behaves like a naughty kid trying to get our attention by any means possible and it's impossible to ignore when she's chewing our ankles, jumping up etc.

There are other things that she has done, but the fact that she is biting agressively, snarling and lunging at us are the most worrying. We've been in contact with the breeder, and she was so shocked and had no reports of any of the other litter being this way. Mum is also very laid back.

How are we going to get to Thursday without one of us being seriously hurt? Any advice or suggestions will be GREATLY appreciated as we're really desperate. Hubby's at work this week so it's going to be me mainly that will have to cope with her behaviour diring the day.

Also, any ideas what to expect from Dog behaviourist and what his visit will entail?


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

Sounds alike a problem called *"imprint"*, that would mean _she does not have much comprehension that she is a dog_ because there is no exposure of her to other canines in real terms of time for rationalisation in her mind.

That problem comes about from them never contacting other dogs consistantly and commonly through their puppy year(hour or so a day).

That always requires allowing another dog / pup to be present with it for play consistantly during her puppy year.

To start that acclimatisation, you go to a dog freindly park while many others are present to show them to it.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

This seems to be a common affliction with cockers. Theres been a few members with the same problem on here.

Did you teach bite inhibition as a puppy?


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## Gordo (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks for the replies.

Nicephotog - Lily has had lots of interaction with other dogs. We took her to puppy socialisation classes when she was younger and now go to training calsses with her. My mum has a dog which she has seen on numerous occasions and really loves him. We take her to the park everyday for a walk and she meets loads of dogs (she is great with other dogs) -- we let Lily off the lead from about 14/15 weeks so she's met them off the lead since then too.

Nonnie - we did teack her bite inhibition and even though she nipped when she was younger, she did stop. Unfortunately, the 'nipping' has got so much worse now (now biting). She has started nipping again and we use all the tips in an article we read about bite inhibition, and it still works with the nipping, bit it's the actual biting that is causing a problem and the agression that is involved.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Do NOT trying pinning/alpha rolling your dog. Its a sure fire way of getting bitten, and getting bitten badly. Plus it is NOT an affective training method.

Im not sure what to suggest, and i think its best for anyone on here giving advice, to be very cautious, as you could end up seriously hurt.

I hope that its just a phase some dogs seem to go through, and that the behaviourist can help you sort out this problem.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi, bit of a different situation but I'm with what patterdale lover said.
My Dave bites Dixie all the time while playing and she will not tell him off. I am trying to discourage it as I like hem to play calmly but sometimes he just won't leave her so I grab the scruff of his neck and growl No at him. It does work.

In the meantime I would leave a lead on her in the house so you can just pick up the end of the lead and remove her if you need to.

x


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> When she bites you don't pull away or ignore her, cos she feels then like the leader. Be assertive and either lay her on her side holding her neck (not too hard) Or hold the scruff of her neck. This is what a dog would do to another dog if something like this happened. Laying them down makes them submissive, my friend had a similar case to you with a lab that she got from a rescue, she just kept laying him down and he soon gave in. Good luck


This is INCREDIBLY irresponsible advice to give someone when you have NO idea what the dog is like or why it is biting.

OP, I strongly advise you NOT to try any methods such as these - you risk your dog becoming much worse.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> When she bites you don't pull away or ignore her, cos she feels then like the leader. Be assertive and either lay her on her side holding her neck (not too hard) Or hold the scruff of her neck. This is what a dog would do to another dog if something like this happened. Laying them down makes them submissive, my friend had a similar case to you with a lab that she got from a rescue, she just kept laying him down and he soon gave in. Good luck


Oh and "laying them down makes them submissive" - rubbish.


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## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

Gordo said:


> Lily is a nearly 6 month cocker.
> 
> We've been having a few problems with her recently with increasing agression, so much so we took her to the vet to be checked over and have now been referred to a dog behaviourist, who's coming to see us on Thursday this week.
> 
> ...


Hi,

Sorry to hear about your problems.

When was your puppy born, dd/mm?
How many in litter?
How many weeks when you picked her up?
Did you teach bite inhibition?
How much socialisation has she had in puppy kindergarten/classes?
What are you feeding her?
How much do you play with her?
What sort of training are you doing?

Sorry for all the questions, but your feedback would be helpful.

Also for brief overview of what a behaviour consultation should entail, read this:

Dog Behaviour Problems

Hope this helps


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## Gordo (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks again for your tips and words of wisdom.

We wouldn't try pinning her down as we feel this would escalate the problem and there is the fear that we would get bitten even harder than we have.

DPT - in response to your questions --
born 7/1/09, 5 in litter, 3 girls 2 boys and we picked her up at 7.5 weeks.
We did teach bite inhibition which she picked up really quickly and still knows.
She went to puppy classes for 4 weeks, an hour at a time, with 5 other puppies, where they were given time for supervised play and structured activities. As soon as those classes finished, she started dog training. She's working towards the good citizen award - she can sit, down, wait, stay, come and stand, and is very good in her group.
She has Purina Pro Plan puppy, 3 times a day which will be reduced to twice once we've seen the behaviourist (don't don't want to change her routine before we've seen him).
Regarding play, she plays fetch and will bring toy back but not always drop it!
We play with her as much as possible, but also give her independent play with treatball etc. We also sometimes leave her to just amuse herself.

She is also a very loving dog 90% of the time and very responsive to us and eager to please most of the time.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Oh and "laying them down makes them submissive" - rubbish.


You have your own opinion, but could you please not be so rude next time, thankyou


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> You have your own opinion, but could you please not be so rude next time, thankyou


It is not my opinion - it is fact. Any PROPER behaviourist, and anyone who has studied dogs properly will tell you that in the wild, dogs do NOT pin each other down in the way that Cesar Millan and his followers claim.

A submissive dog WILL lay down when interacting with a more dominant dog, to avoid potential conflict, but it is not the case that the more dominant dog FORCES it to lie down.

Advising someone with a possibly aggressive dog to force it to lie down is asking for trouble.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Oh dear, I hope the behaviourist is able to sort this out


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> It is not my opinion - it is fact. Any PROPER behaviourist, and anyone who has studied dogs properly will tell you that in the wild, dogs do NOT pin each other down in the way that Cesar Millan and his followers claim.
> 
> A submissive dog WILL lay down when interacting with a more dominant dog, to avoid potential conflict, but it is not the case that the more dominant dog FORCES it to lie down.
> 
> Advising someone with a possibly aggressive dog to force it to lie down is asking for trouble.


Well it has worked for my friend and other people, I do not follow Ceasar Millan, what he does with dogs is great but again that is his own method of training, I also didn't say pin down, I said lay down, I do not believe in holding a dog down, as yes you are right it just aggrivates the situation...Anyway, I'm near here to critisize you, i'm sure you are a nice person, and wouldn't want us to start off on a bad tone. But i believe what i believe and i just don't like the tone you are using. Enough said.

Gordo good luck in whatever you decide, and let us know how things get on with the behaviourist


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Just curious, but can you groom her, touch her ears, etc easily? Also is she food orientated at all?
Im a total dog amateur but I always make sure mine sit for their dinner and treats. Oh, and I use lots of treats !! Treat for recall and just about any good behaviour.
Maybe save a really good treat (cooked chicken for eg) for when you go near her neck/lead, so she associates you touching her lead with good stuff.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> Just curious, but can you groom her, touch her ears, etc easily? Also is she food orientated at all?
> Im a total dog amateur but I always make sure mine sit for their dinner and treats. Oh, and I use lots of treats !! Treat for recall and just about any good behaviour.
> Maybe save a really good treat (cooked chicken for eg) for when you go near her neck/lead, so she associates you touching her lead with good stuff.


Quick tip: I'm not sure if you do this or not, but don't giver your dogs cooked bones, only give them raw  The cooked bones splinter


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

If you believe that your dog knows bite inhabition and he has been socialised correctly (the optimum period is between 6-12 weeks) and you still have a problem. My reply is.... Your dog does not see you as the boss or pack leader. 

You need to take steps to retake this position, so that he learns respect and does not act like this.

There are many things you can do, if you are interested then PM me. 

Good luck x


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Well it has worked for my friend and other people, I do not follow Ceasar Millan, what he does with dogs is great but again that is his own method of training, I also didn't say pin down, I said lay down, I do not believe in holding a dog down, as yes you are right it just aggrivates the situation...Anyway, I'm near here to critisize you, i'm sure you are a nice person, and wouldn't want us to start off on a bad tone. But i believe what i believe and i just don't like the tone you are using. Enough said.
> 
> Gordo good luck in whatever you decide, and let us know how things get on with the behaviourist


I stand in the middle on this one.... I have used the alpha role technique, but I am not convinced now that it has worked. Instead, I have used alternative methods to deal with problems. The alpha role is controversial, I believe that it needs to be done by the right person. It can work, but then again it often does not.

As to fact or fiction.... there are little facts when it comes to psychology, just a load of opinions. which everybody is entitled to.

The trouble is by advocating the alpha role, it could end up with someone getting bitten. I myself, used to recommend it, but I now believe that there are other methods


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

I think if it was me i would see a reputable behaviourist who will use kind positive methods , I don't think we can say what the problem is over the internet.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> I stand in the middle on this one.... I have used the alpha role technique, but I am not convinced now that it has worked. Instead, I have used alternative methods to deal with problems. The alpha role is controversial, I believe that it needs to be done by the right person. It can work, but then again it often does not.
> 
> As to fact or fiction.... there are little facts when it comes to psychology, just a load of opinions. which everybody is entitled to.
> 
> The trouble is by advocating the alpha role, it could end up with someone getting bitten. I myself, used to recommend it, but I now believe that there are other methods


Good post, why have i never spoken to you before!


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

You said attention seeking, since _she is "socialised" _ , there is the problem of her behaving like a (comparitive only , this is similar) human child at around 3 or 4, that emotional bonding stage of choosing a parent. That complex is known respective of sex "Electra" and "Oedipus".
She may not be allowed to choose who and have the master or mistres and cannot separate you so she is depressed. It's a phase. You may need to let it pick one of you as master/mistress respectively for a while / win , and let her send the other person away but do not encourage aggression , simply restrain her and keep away from the other person.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

I agree with luvdogs - this is NOT a problem that we should be helping with over the internet. Some of the replies will probably have caused confusion, some are likely to aggravate the situation and some are simply second hand ideas that the poster just 'thinks' that is the way to handle it because that's what they did/didn't do with their dogs.

Gordo - please don't be confused with much of the advice given here. I would leave trying anything new till the behaviourist comes If you are having problems with the lead, then leave a trailing lead on him so you won't have to grab the collar. You will obviously have to be watchful and don't leave it on at night.
Hope you have a good session with the behaviourist.


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## Gordo (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks once again for all the advice.

I wasn't really looking for a way to 'sort her out', so to speak, just ideas on what I can do with her this week until the behaviourist comes on Thursday -- we were on holiday last week so hubby and I shared her care, but he's back at work today so it's just me. Hopefully, saying that, with her normal routine back in place, she may calm down anyway (here's hoping!) I also wasn't going to try anything new, including changing her feeding from 3 to 2 meals a day until we've spoken to the behaviourist. 

When I posted on here yesterday, I was feeling pretty desperate as to how I'd get to Thursday, especially with the agression, but after reading advice on here, the pm from Goodvic and a good night's sleep(!), I am feeling much more positive again and looking forwards to Thursday and the journey we will take to get our lovely dog back again!

Will let you know how we get on with the behaviourist.

Thanks again. x


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## Luvdogs (Aug 15, 2008)

Best of luck to you, and let us know how you get on with the behavourist.

x


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## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

Hi,

I think the best thing to do is prepare for the evaluation/consultation with the behaviourist, so be prepared to give lots of info, in particular it would be very helpful if you could let the behaviourist know when you think this behaviour started.

Also try to be very clear on what instigates the behaviour. Obviously you'll mention about not being able to remove her leash, but think about other similar events, and what you or your husband were doing when she reacted.

Will your husband be present, because I think it is vital that he is.

You say it's a recent behaviour so something may have triggered the behaviour, sometimes a simple change in routine can trigger these things; for example your husband being home for the week.

Do you know what training methods the behaviourist uses? Reward based rather than punishment based would be preferable.

Also your behaviourist might suggest this this anyway, but if he/she does not, discuss doing a "Learn to Earn Program" with your girl. Basically this means that whatever your girls want, she will have to earn it, nothing is free, absolutely nothing. I always see remarkable results with this approach in as little as a week. Consistency is key, and all family members have to play by the same rules, as well as any visitors.

It is not something you need to do for life, you can relax certain aspects after a few months, but you'll want to maintain other aspects.

So, for example:


If she comes to you for attention, request that she "sit" and "wait" first, then reward by giving your attention, petting, or playing.

At feed times request that she "sit" and "wait" before you put the bowl down, make her "wait" until you give the release cue "ok"

When she wants to go outside to garden, request "sit" and "wait", open the door, and make her wait until you give the release cue "ok, go"

When getting ready to go for a walk, call her to you, as her to "sit" while you attach leash, walk to the door and again "sit', "wait" while you open the door, make her "wait" until you give the release cue "ok, let's go"

All the while you do this she will be learning to control her impulses, as she needs to be focused, calm, and giving _you _attention while she waits for the next cue.

With all of these exercises, whenever she complies by sitting and waiting, praise her, reward her with a treat, and then give attention, or the release cue.

Over time, when you feel she is reliable (meaning she's complies 80% of the time to your requests), you can start to phase out the treats, she is still rewarded because she gets access to what she wants; food, a walk, play, attention etc. But at the beginning it is best to use food as the reward, simply because it is a primary reinforcer; something all dogs are born needing to survive.

Will all of these exercises if she doesn't comply, starts to show signs of aggression, then stay calm, and simply remove your attention 100%, (no verbal, physical, or eye contact), don't add any aversive, just walk off, leave room if necessary and give her a "time out" of 1 or 2 minutes. Go back and try again.

Hope this is helpful, and please do let us all know how it goes on Thursday.

You might find this helpful too, the problem highlighted here is different from yours, but many of the same methods can be applied.

Is Hand-Reared Rottie Pup Destined to Be Aggressive? : AskDrYin.com

Just thought I'd add... I know you have already been to your vet, so did the vet check for hypothyroidism? This is known to be a contributing factor in owner directed aggression, as it increases a dogs level of anxiety and therefore fearful responses to certain triggers. Just a thought, but worth checking out.


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## reddogs (Feb 6, 2009)

The other thing that has sprung to my mind is so called 'cocker rage' you look like yours is a blue roan and I think that it affects solid colours mainly but may be worth googleing it and see what they say.


Only say this because a friend had to have their young cocker out down because of the attacks


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## boxerlife (May 4, 2009)

I too thought this sounded like "cocker rage". 
Good luck on thursday.


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

Yes I also wondered if it could be this too.


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

> Colliepoodle wrote:
> _..."It is not my opinion - it is fact. Any PROPER behaviourist, and anyone who has studied dogs properly will tell you that in the wild, dogs do NOT pin each other down in the way that Cesar Millan and his followers claim."..._


Video link YouTube (This for my memory could be a bit tame of them also in this):
YouTube - Wolf Park Indiana, dominance behavior


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Quote:
> Colliepoodle wrote:
> ..."It is not my opinion - it is fact. Any PROPER behaviourist, and anyone who has studied dogs properly will tell you that in the wild, dogs do NOT pin each other down in the way that Cesar Millan and his followers claim."...
> 
> ...


It has also since been found that wolves in captivity do not behave like wolves in the wild either.

I haven't seen the clip, but a lot of wrong conclusions were made from observing wolves but sadly the myths remains.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

boxerlife said:


> I too thought this sounded like "cocker rage".
> Good luck on thursday.


The trouble with 'cocker rage' is that any aggression in cockers can all too easily be called 'rage'. I've never seen 'rage', but from what I've heard about it, there is a sudden unprovoked attack that involves mauling whilst having a glazed expression and subsequent lack of awareness of what they did. This cocker is growling, showing teeth ie warning, and is giving (it sounds) single bites - not grabbing on and not letting go. There is no mention of the glazed expression of later becoming 'normal'. It sounds to me like a case for a behaviourist.


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## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

nicephotog said:


> Video link YouTube (This for my memory could be a bit tame of them also in this):
> YouTube - Wolf Park Indiana, dominance behavior


Nice video, but looks more like rough play to me than dominance.

Also dogs are not wolves.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

nicephotog said:


> Video link YouTube (This for my memory could be a bit tame of them also in this):
> YouTube - Wolf Park Indiana, dominance behavior


Dogs aren't wolves, they don't act like them.
Wolves in the wild don't act like this either


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

dogpositivetraining said:


> Nice video, but looks more like rough play to me than dominance.
> 
> Also dogs are not wolves.


The dominance theorists always kind of gloss over the fact that dogs aren't wolves though - it stuffs their argument right up if they admit that


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

> It has also since been found that wolves in captivity do not behave like wolves in the wild either.


I tamed one and kept him for years, it didn't behave the same as in the wild either.
Hmmmm strange that!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Those wolves are playing, not warning each other - this is why it is wrong to give advice on the internet over how someone describes their dog's behaviour. Everyone sees it differently.
Personally, if a dog of mine was doing that to me, I would flatten it instantly. But I hope no dog of mine would do it because I wouldnt have done anything to allow that sort of behaviour in the first place. And if I was an inexperienced owner that had inadvertently made a mistake then I would not be experienced enough to react properly towards the aggression so would probably make things worse. It is a bit of a catch 22 isnt it.
I have helped people with aggressive dogs before and the silly thing is they seldom show their aggression to an experienced person (they are not stupid) so it really does need a behaviourist who is good at assessing what the owner is capable of doing to solve the problem, not just what the behaviourist/trainer would do themselves. I was once taking a very aggressive (to its elderly owners) JR to dog training classes to socialise it. Someone with a rather unruly GSD said how lucky I was to have such an easy dog to train - the trainer sniggered a bit and explained it was much more difficult than her dog, she just couldnt see what I was doing to stop it from attacking. And that sums it up doesnt it. If you know what you are doing you dont need to do a lot. If you dont know what you are doing you can try all sorts of ideas and you are unlikely to get it quite right so it wont work.

Good luck with the behaviourist and I hope they can help you and spot what has gone wrong.


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

> Blits: ...Those wolves are playing, not warning each other - this is why it is wrong to give advice on the internet over how someone describes their dog's behaviour. Everyone sees it differently...


_*This thread is not the place for this* (but if you found any interest and need to know):
owning a dingo Intermediary page
http://www.nicephotog-jsp.net/Dingone.pdf
Wildlife Screening Trap
I suggest you watch that video carefully and comprehend the meaning of the unit set of wolves called a pack.
Particularly listen to the audio, That lower pack member wolf isn't in serious trouble but it is simply being told to remember who gets the pats before it and how much it can have(that was close, it nearly got a brush)._

_I bet_ the cocker wanted one of the two particularly, because it is quite young and is a phase in baby creatures to become loyal and jealous, _the spread balance of care and affection is ok and hoew to have least troubles_ until it comes to the pup owning the person it wants.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

nicephotog said:


> I tamed one and kept him for years, it didn't behave the same as in the wild either.
> Hmmmm strange that!


You said you tamed a Dingo not a Wolf


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

Here is wikipedias'(google its name) taxonomy below its link, and its
"canis lupus dingo" because it "is a sub specieis of wolf" (and its wild dog hybrid is refered to as "canis familiaris dingo" by vermin control bodies).

"Lupus" effectively means "wolf" as a sub species caniform.

While listed as "vulnerable" to extinction by wikipedia, it is much worse danger i believe and by population census counts of which only around 12% are pure hidden among the hybridised populations.

Worse again, Australia unlike other countries has very little regulation or enforcement of a mass killing(everything that licks or touches it particularly when used illegaly) bait chemical that is banned in most countries called 1080. Much of the damage and danger is the illegal baiting that occurs.

Dingo - Wikipedia bahasa Indonesia, ensiklopedia bebas

Kerajaan: Animalia

Filum: Chordata

Kelas: Mammalia

Ordo: Carnivora

Famili: Canidae

Genus: Canis

Spesies: C. lupus

Upaspesies: C. l. dingo


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

nicephotog said:


> Here is wikipedias'(google its name) taxonomy below its link, and its
> "canis lupus dingo" because it "is a sub specieis of wolf" (and its wild dog hybrid is refered to as "canis familiaris dingo" by vermin control bodies).
> 
> "Lupus" effectively means "wolf" as a sub species caniform.
> ...


i know the genus etc... but its a domestic dog reverted back to the wild, canis lupus familiaris means familiar wolf but its a dog, as is the Dingo


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

Dingos are a wolf, the oldest carbon dated skeleton dates 3500 yp+or- 90years for the test.
That skeleton was found in a cave at "Fromms' Landing" about 70km north of Adelaide.
In SA and WA a couple of caves(one called "Madura(town/place near it)") have skeletons dating around 3000yp and
One on the north east coast in a cave.

A pure dingo _is purely a subspecies of Wolf genetically_.

Canis *Lupus* "Dingo" closely relates C.L. Pallipes(Indian penninsula wolf and Asian Pallipes) and H.V. Cruddock genetically.

A dog that does not have much appearence of a dingo is called a "Wild Dog(feral dog)", if it reverted to the wild, its a feral pest.

A cross-breed between a _domestic dog_ or _feral dog_ with a Dingo is called a "*Hybrid*".

Some of those _Hybrids _for percentage of family line are almost pure dingo(though they never can be because of parentage) through generations of re-mating with pures again and some are only _50% dingo+50%familiaris_.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

nicephotog said:


> Dingos are a wolf, the oldest carbon dated skeleton dates 3500 yp+or- 90years for the test.
> That skeleton was found in a cave at "Fromms' Landing" about 70km north of Adelaide.
> In SA and WA a couple of caves(one called "Madura(town/place near it)") have skeletons dating around 3000yp and
> One on the north east coast in a cave.
> ...


its a domestic dog reverted back to the wild!! ....Dingo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

> *Spurious and improper statement in wikipedia:*
> ....The Dingo (Canis lupus dingo) is a domestic dog which has reverted to a wild state for thousands of years ....


It is not a domestic dog.period.

Its' eyes face out sideways(not absolutely) *in accord with the morphology/skull morphology of C. Lupus "wolves", NOT DOMESTIC DOGS.*

If it came from anywhere, it appears to be Hatshepsut and Thutmose III navy were probably blown of course in the lower Sudan part of the Red Sea or much more likely navy scouts of Thutmose III carrying booty, among them a few wolves or wild dog / jackal x-breed wolves.
note (this is the sort of problem all of these(later mentioned groups) had at the time _(dogs may have been a snide comment about these kingdoms at the time by spy scouts about fits too, but's negligable)_) : http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/649/he1.htm
_...."a huge attack from the south on Elkab and Egypt by the Kingdom of Kush and its allies from the land of Punt, during the 17th dynasty (1575-1525 BC)." ...._
3500 years BP(before British Petroleum, there are various rating abbreviations but they all mean much the same) +or- 90years is around 1400 - 1600 BC (around 200 years of band wander)
This presents if any of these groups put it there, it was Nubia or Punt or lesser possibly Hyksos, because in losing the battle, it appears to have done nothing much with a new territory to travel to or utilise that the egyptians would have exploited but i suppose no more than Nubia(technologically similar to Egypt, amusingly of which the Hyksos were the most technological "The Wheel").

The suggestion from the carbon dating is about primitive explorer activity that the location of Fromms' Landing matches a problem navigating and exploring coast would have, keeping in mind that there is a difference of 4-500 years between the two locations of Madura and Fromms' Landing but a good geographical argument for "scouts(meaning an organised body of pseudo security officers of navy discipline)".
First, the landing is around 70km north of the south coast near Adelaide SA.
Second, to reach it may have been done by a canoe type craft up the Murray(hypothesis) from a larger sea bound ship, that being logical for scouts and spys of an army/navy.
Third, the dead Dingo(Fromms' Landing) may have been killed as a "marker" alike a flag(hypothesis), so inhabitants that stumble on it would not see it alike a technological object and simply leave it alone(deciept), but its skeleton, and being, would be identifiable to those that could recognise it by its exact known morphology. As for a deliberate morphology for a marker skeleton and identifying it during its life as the living version with no breed distortion, it could be a known mixture by its creator for use as a marker. The favoring of wolves genes in it is to prevent theft or defeat from domestic dogs, and a much better chance from other wolves(apart other logistics of keeping it and holding onto its' collar). Another point about the marker, by meeting people with dogs on board they may have been able to cause the inhabitants to think they came from a close region by the fact that at sea, "dogs need food"(also, dogs are food if that problem arises).
Fourth, the mapping trace(not the best though and that's because of the 50Km trip north to the Murray river Landing that would be 150km by canoe (_but 40Km east from the Adelaide bay coast or 2 days walk for exploring in pre history_), probably to try to find evidence of people by using water for the first time, that does not occur until past Adelaides' longitude neither dense vegitation much so ok to walk around using sight for security to get to Madura as much to leap from under adelaide to Madura as a stop(or thereabout), if they walked back along the coast it would keep that ridge to Madura in sight e.g. 500M from it thereabout) accross to Madura cave(hypothesis) while not showing relationship of what is at Fromms' Landing at that earlier time would be ideal for coming in from the west(heading easterly) and re-meeting a larger vessel by pre known route close to the coast(heading westerly), allowing reconnaissance of whether other people had seen or were present, so to opportune meeting them(getting them over their fear, as much the sparse coastal vegetation allows some forwarning of large mass of possible enemy moving).
Fifth, the Dingo is effectively the Thai Dingo and to logically obtain that only means coastal navigation from Thailand area around to South Africa(hypothesis of this context by Thutmose III being about the only giant explorer of sorts at the time though Kush, and Nubia, the society of High priests, and land of Punt, and Hyksos can date this a piece too), of which it may have been known to local inhabitants at the South African area that there was a land east that took ten days or however long the primitive gesturing indication to reach, or accidently found on other spy/scout explorations.
Various civilisation 1000 years previous did have the ability to build sea going vessels that could manage to traverse between South Africas tip and south down to the northern territoty through the islands from Thailand and China.

However, that as well could be "a set of asteriscs", translating old stone age chinese scripts may tell , neither have all that great a set of bureaucratic archives and neither did Ebla it appears ultimately(well maybe they just don't put the translations onto the net)! , it appears that ancient chinese could have been here too.

This will give you an idea of a primitive navy http://www.hsc.csu.edu.au/ancient_history/historical_periods/egypt/2496/NKEgypt_Thutmosis.html

Other choices are explorers from Kerma culture , A Group and Kush and Nubias' neighbours at that time or pirates.

Shelter 6 Fromms' Landing

http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi=nla.pic-vn4247898&referercode=cat

http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi=nla.pic-vn4247914&referercode=cat

As you can see it's of extreme domesticity and reverted back to the wild in this initial case of it.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

nicephotog said:


> It is not a domestic dog.period.
> 
> Its' eyes face out sideways(not absolutely) *in accord with the morphology/skull morphology of C. Lupus "wolves", NOT DOMESTIC DOGS.*
> 
> ...


Subspecies of Canis lupus
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Subspecies of Gray Wolf

Original distribution of wolf subspecies.

Present distribution of wolf subspecies (does not include distribution of domestic dogs). 
Canis lupus has 39 subspecies currently described, including two subspecies of domestic dog, Canis lupus dingo and Canis lupus familiaris, and many subspecies of wolf throughout the northern hemisphere. The nominative subspecies is Canis lupus lupus

there you are!! now surely you wont disagree with Wikipedia Note where it says INCLUDING TWO SUBSPECIES OF DOMESTIC DOG, CANIS LUPUS DINGO AND CANIS LUPUS FAMILIARIS........


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

*I'll state it again, you as wikepedia are wrong!*
_There has been a strong warning and recommendation issued to university students in the past to not use wikepedia for their studies because it is often wrong._

*I as many others will disagree with wikapedia at any moment.
The Dingo is not a domestic dog it is a wolf.*

1. Domestic dogs gestation is shorter and bitches come into season twice a year, Wolves as do Dingos only once a year.

2. Dogs bark, Wolves and Dingos do not bark, they only howl and have a range of other sounds.

3. Wolves and Dingos eyes from their skull caps face outward mildly (the same as wolves) for taxanomic morphological purpose of identifying them, domestic dogs face in front.

C . Familiaris Dingo was a name used to identify hybrids. When DNA (mitochondrial species separation) technology arrived(around 1980) most Dingos were Hybrids anyhow, and after separation they found they were wolves for taxonomy species classification in purity.

CSIRO PUBLISHING - Australian Journal of Zoology
your wrong ut:

Extra note related to previous post:
The lattitude and distances for traversal by militant navy scout explorers (40 - 50Km hops over land) between Fromms' Landing and Madura would be ideal for a co sea going ship to meet either side of the outsets in mapping and distance and eye-sight distance.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dingoes and Other Wild DogsTopic: Feral and Wild Dog Relatives

In many different areas of the world even today there are species or breeds of wild dogs that still survive. Typically these wild dogs have a close resemblance to both wolves and coyotes but also to some of domestic breeds of dogs. Many researchers, scientists and even dog breeders argue that any wild dog is not a pure breed, since there will have been breeding between what are now considered the domestic breeds and the wild breeds. There are virtually no areas that wild dogs survive that domestic dogs aren't also common. 

From this natural out breeding process, many scientists prefer to call wild dogs by the term feral. Whether you call them wild dogs or feral dogs, these canines have adapted to an ever shrinking territory, and some are even close to extinction. It is ironic that the out breeding with domestic dogs may in fact be the only footprint of some of these wild breeds within the next fifty years unless more effort is made to protect wild populations and natural habitat. 


Australia and Dingoes

Most people are familiar with three different species of animals native to Australia and they include kangaroos, Koala bears and dingoes. There is a lot of misinformation, myths and pure nonsense out there about all three species, but the dingo seems to have more than its fair share of negative press. 

In reality the modern dingo is, like virtually all wild dogs, at least somewhat influenced by domestic breeds. Breeding between wild dingo populations and domestic dogs is fairly common, especially domestic dogs that have become wild through being lost or abandoned in the wild areas found throughout much of the country. 

The true wild dingo is considered to be a unique breed by the Australian National Kennel Council and the breed has been adopted as the national dog breed of the country. A fully mature dingo will weigh between 50 and 70 pounds and typically will not measure more than about 24 inches at the shoulder. Males are taller and heavier than females and also have a more masculine looking head and body. Their muzzle tends to be longer and narrower than most domestic breeds and they have a slinking, lower to the ground movement that is not seen in other dog breeds. The coat of the dingo is heavy and thick and can be found in colors of ginger to yellow, tan, black, brindle and a white to sandy color. A true dingo will have a white tip on the tail and white on the paws and feet. Colorations that include any patterning or variations of the typical colors usually indicate a hybrid from some domestic dog breeding with the dingo. 

Unlike what most people believe, dingoes can be domesticated and have been for centuries by the aboriginal tribes. They are different than typical domestic dogs and tend to be more independent and much less affectionate than most breeds of dogs. They maintain a very high prey drive even when domesticated and can be very challenging to socialize. Even in their wild state these dogs don't tend to stay in packs for long periods of time, rather they separate to hunt and live and come together in packs to breed and establish roles with the very loose social structure. Many dingoes travel in pairs and tend to avoid the larger pack gatherings. 


Pariah Dogs

There are several different types of Pariah dogs found in very different areas of the world. The term "pariah" was first given to feral or wild dogs that roamed the cities and countryside of India. It is believed that the term "pariah" was used to designate these dogs as the lowest type of dog as they are often semi-wild or completely feral, outcasts from society. In rural areas and small villages these dogs often lived as unofficial pets of the town or area, fed on scraps and generally cared for by the whole community. In turn they kept down vermin and acted as natural guards for the inhabitants. 

All Pariah dogs around the world have the same general body type and overall appearance. Genetically they are linked together as well as closely linked to the wolves, proving that they are one of the earliest ancestors of the modern domestic dog breeds. The general appearance of a Pariah dog includes a shorter muzzle, wedge shaped head, highly erect triangular ears, longer legs, longer body and a medium length tail that is usually curled tightly over the back. In some cases they may closely resemble the overall appearance of the Basenji and or the more northern spitz type dogs. In hot climates the Pariah dog has a shorter coat and in cooler climates a longer double coat may be found. Colors tend to range from yellow to rust and black with brindles and some parti and tri-colors. 

It is important to keep in mind that Pariah dogs are a type of dog that is unique, more in keeping with a breed rather than a hybrid. Purebred Pariah dogs are not a mixed breed dog or a result of domestic dogs breeding and leaving different hybrid litters in the wild. Typically since Pariah dogs are feral or semi-wild they are often rather poorly fed, leading to overall smaller sized dogs. When taken into captivity and properly cared for these dogs often maturing at between 30 and 50 pounds. While there is no official registry for these dogs in India, several groups are working to preserve the purebred Pariah dog and encourage the development of a registry. 


note where it says a dingo can be domesticated, (this is because they are a primitive dog)!!! you wont find anywhere where it says that about a wolf!


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Subspecies of Canis lupus
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jump to: navigation, search
> Subspecies of Gray Wolf
> ...


Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information
Wikipedia definition of Wikipedia in the Free Online Encyclopedia.

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information
> Wikipedia definition of Wikipedia in the Free Online Encyclopedia.
> 
> Wikipedia


ok thanks Rona thats why ive found some other reference, theres loads out there on Dingo's being a primitive dog.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> ok thanks Rona thats why ive found some other reference, theres loads out there on Dingo's being a primitive dog.


Noush, shaw you've susted but this person is the one the one that started the does your dog act different thead age's ago


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

christine c said:


> Noush, shaw you've susted but this person is the one the one that started the does your dog act different thead age's ago


i remember! lol


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i remember! lol


Thought you would.
just read through it. Sorry can't help with this one at all, it's beond me


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## trabonita (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm watching this post with interest as our 6mth old has started biting really hard and has also drawn blood, he is definetly playing though and it doesn't sound as if your dog is! I agree that pinning the dog down etc will make it worse, my dog sees anything like that (including the word NO) as encouragement! hope you get it sorted.


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

About the cocker
Oops! ... really dumb one here, but as they are pups i should have thought of this, 
for the cocker, maybe it got a bad problem that left it in shock and sits on the boundary of trauma(any version) not discounted can be teething new teeth and getting only hard food and no teething toy or chewer bone(special buthcer offcut pack dog bones)?
This other one(trabonita) maybe simply teething regardless the emotional status but i would say its simply elated to be noticed by a hand that comes down to it and frenzies it to play.
It will be the same result with a pup if you flip it on its back, it will play at breaking free and play fight harder until you can help it discern its in trouble by diciplining it e.g. soft weak strength of rolled newspaper and a clear single command is required to be embedded to its conciousness at exact biting points, but don't forget to pat it/pick it up/handle it as a reassurance after it(its only used because something has to represent the situational value to it included with its tone of voice, not actually impression fear or any actual value of instant embed shock alike the trauma i mentioned above).



> noushka05
> 
> Re: Desperately seeking advice -- very agressive pup
> 
> ...


for noushka05 and Christine C : Journalise and name the sources for your above quoted message, because you are distorting both academic intellectual truth and scientific registered fact against designated and approved ongoing scientific studies' thesi and against scientific fact by use of articles that commit vague and unaccurate classification and description of the subject by their context and relativatey.
Again remember an official warning was issued against wikipedias' sites' information content validity, that site as many non science academics will only commit an untrustable(whether accurate) or rough guide at best for subjects related and less known/learned by them.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

nicephotog said:


> About the cocker
> Oops! ... really dumb one here, but as they are pups i should have thought of this,
> for the cocker, maybe it got a bad problem that left it in shock and sits on the boundary of trauma(any version) not discounted can be teething new teeth and getting only hard food and no teething toy or chewer bone(special buthcer offcut pack dog bones)?
> This other one(trabonita) maybe simply teething regardless the emotional status but i would say its simply elated to be noticed by a hand that comes down to it and frenzies it to play.
> ...


Don't no why you aimed this at me, sorry but it goes over my head i really don't understand what you say


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

nicephotog said:


> About the cocker
> Oops! ... really dumb one here, but as they are pups i should have thought of this,
> for the cocker, maybe it got a bad problem that left it in shock and sits on the boundary of trauma(any version) not discounted can be teething new teeth and getting only hard food and no teething toy or chewer bone(special buthcer offcut pack dog bones)?
> This other one(trabonita) maybe simply teething regardless the emotional status but i would say its simply elated to be noticed by a hand that comes down to it and frenzies it to play.
> ...


that reference wasnt taken from Wikipidia, but anyway the point im trying to make is that a dingo is a sub species of the grey wolf as is the dometic dog & when you say you tamed a wolf its very misleading especially when you show video clips of grey wolves, a dingo is a dingo it can be domesticated although i think they should be wild & free, a wolf on the other hand suffer mentally in captivity they should never be kept as pets.


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

> ...dingo is a sub species of the grey wolf as is the dometic dog...


Woopity hoot!
Its lifestyle system, behavioral enactions, genetic drive imprint, taxonomy and morphology match Grey wolves, also all wolf species, and proper wolf sub species.
The simple give-aways of it being a wolf are in that previous list i posted of compare to the domestic dog.



> ...a dingo is a dingo it can be domesticated although i think they should be wild & free, a wolf on the other hand suffer mentally in captivity they should never be kept as pets....


_No for effect(true pure Dingos), it cannot be domesticated_ in the "final context of domestication" (meaning it integrates to a calm animal accepting it new family group and is an animal with *no left over behavioral referencing to *the wild or situation it came from and _*no requirement for*_ social cues for behavior and reactiveness _from its past experience either as tamed or raised as a pup_).
In summary _it is genetically organised in behavioral instinct irreplacabley and unsuppressibly, Domestic dogs are a genetic selection of animals that behavioral traits for purpose of survival and danger levels to humans have been removed or lowered by closed breeding lineage._

However, Wolves can be integrated if fundamental adherence to those behavioral patterns and signals are understood properly by their _keeper(it is a step up from an ordinary pet owner)_ and not suppressed in them by anything except being boss to its rank and allowing it to always react with its exagerated behavior of which if your sensible you will even simply answer it sometimes as wolves would in their pack.
(note: while it is considered they are pack animals(wolves) they can function without a pack quite well too(as often in the wild do), so with integration _under the terms of the method of being successful_ generate's from it being a wolf, it is quite possible for them to not require other animals _except for imprint safety_).

All it about them is that people are not prepared to learn about them properly and handle them properly for what they are.
They appear to think as alike to buying a Kelpie or a Heeler(Cattle dog) that they are about to get a nice little doggy.



> ...should be wild & free...


I'll trade you this bit if you'll shut up for this point.
*What familiaris exactly is* no matter how improved to domesticity it is , *is a deformity that derrogates the parameters of the requirements to be a canid in evolution or god*(anyones choice how they see it), though the obvious mechanical purpose of humans is environmental manipulation(as all creatures down to ameabas exploit that point with something by movement) to use the environment around it.
Familiaris is deafer, stupider, less genetically controled inside its breeding lineages for natural selection safety than wolves of the wild, and, familiaris integration to primitives can have no proper claim to effectiveness and selective breeding with directives of achievement at settlement level in pre history(screening effectiveness andd re-educative hand down information never quite good enough or reliable (re prince herbert in Monty Pythons Holy Grail as a hand me down)), only at levels of pre history/ancient primitive empires and kingdoms or regions of the alike does the point show reliable effectiveness but simply never lasted till present or 100 years on as history relates battles conquests and ruining and dispersion.
*to wit*:
There are many(if not every) work breeds that required the use of Wolf Hybridisation to improve them to a level suitable for the work to be done whether pulling a sled in -20 Celsius or rounding up livestock in 35 Celcius.

So cease forthwith iniquitous people , the evil from you all , and _learn _wolves.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Gordo said:


> Lily is a nearly 6 month cocker.
> 
> We've been having a few problems with her recently with increasing agression, so much so we took her to the vet to be checked over and have now been referred to a dog behaviourist, who's coming to see us on Thursday this week.
> 
> ...





nicephotog said:


> _No for effect(true pure Dingos), it cannot be domesticated_ in the "final context of domestication" (meaning it integrates to a calm animal accepting it new family group and is an animal with *no left over behavioral referencing to *the wild or situation it came from and _*no requirement for*_ social cues for behavior and reactiveness _from its past experience either as tamed or raised as a pup_).
> In summary _it is genetically organised in behavioral instinct irreplacabley and unsuppressibly, Domestic dogs are a genetic selection of animals that behavioral traits for purpose of survival and danger levels to humans have been removed or lowered by closed breeding lineage._
> 
> However, Wolves can be integrated if fundamental adherence to those behavioral patterns and signals are understood properly by their _keeper(it is a step up from an ordinary pet owner)_ and not suppressed in them by anything except being boss to its rank and allowing it to always react with its exagerated behavior of which if your sensible you will even simply answer it sometimes as wolves would in their pack.
> (note: while it is considered they are pack animals(wolves) they can function without a pack quite well too(as often in the wild do), so with integration _under the terms of the method of being successful_ generate's from it being a wolf, it is quite possible for them to not require other animals _except for imprint safety_).


What has this got to do with what op was asking?. I put it on here for you incase you didn't read it. may be you could start a thread of your own.


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

I have no idea why someone re criticised me and attacked scientific fact, as i stated, i wondered in previous posts why they had not been talking about the cocker also.

But again, do not derrogate scientific based fact *or i must answer to correct it when your wrong *and that appears to require a salvo of properly defined and journalised information repeatedly.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

nicephotog said:


> I have no idea why someone re criticised me and attacked scientific fact, as i stated, i wondered in previous posts why they had not been talking about the cocker also.
> 
> But again, do not derrogate scientific based fact *or i must answer to correct it when your wrong *and that appears to require a salvo of properly defined and journalised information repeatedly.


You really confuse me.


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

And to avoid further ambiguity and to validitate the statements
_A non wikipedia taxonomy from a tertiary education institution_.
ADW: Canis lupus dingo: Information

Finally, a statement and reference to wolves(with particular reference to Dingos), hybrids _*and the taxonomy classification in a scientific environmental report endorsed and accredited*_.
(PDF)Terrestrial vertebrate fauna of the Greater Southern Sydney Region:
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/threatenedspecies/07471tpagssvol2pt9mammals1.pdf

The post that started it was a comment by someone about Ceaser Milan recommending dominance and pinning down an animal "alike in the wild with wolves behavior".
















(gone about a quarter of a century now)


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

nicephotog said:


> _No for effect(true pure Dingos), it cannot be domesticated_ in the "final context of domestication" (meaning it integrates to a calm animal accepting it new family group and is an animal with *no left over behavioral referencing to *the wild or situation it came from and _*no requirement for*_ social cues for behavior and reactiveness _from its past experience either as tamed or raised as a pup_).
> In summary _it is genetically organised in behavioral instinct irreplacabley and unsuppressibly, Domestic dogs are a genetic selection of animals that behavioral traits for purpose of survival and danger levels to humans have been removed or lowered by closed breeding lineage._
> 
> However, Wolves can be integrated if fundamental adherence to those behavioral patterns and signals are understood properly by their _keeper(it is a step up from an ordinary pet owner)_ and not suppressed in them by anything except being boss to its rank and allowing it to always react with its exagerated behavior of which if your sensible you will even simply answer it sometimes as wolves would in their pack.
> ...


well ok i agree i meant Dingo's can be semi domesticated but you cant seriously believe a wolf would be happy living as a pet & if people did learn about them, as you say, they would see that they should never be kept the way you think they should because 'no' they are not some 'nice little doggy'....they are a magnificent 'wild' animal!!

you think crossing a wolf will make a hybrid who is good at rounding up livestock? do you mean a 1st generation cross? & with a dingo not a wolf?
i have sled dogs who maybe were crossed with wolves generations ago, but its never done to 'improve' them these days because knowledgable people know that in most cases you just end up with the worst features of both species, many are fear aggressive and will never be truly domesticated just as you will never truly domesticate a pure Wolf.

I like Jim Dutcher & John Aspinall they 'befriended' wolves they didnt try to dominate them!!!

i really think its 'you' who should learn about Wolves & then you might realise that keeping them as pets is cruel!


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

> .....a magnificent 'wild' animal!!....


*Where do you get the idea that two non primary producer dumb assess such as Aspenal and Dutcher mean a piece of [email protected]*@*@*t... , if things continue it will not be bait and bullets it will be fronts of bulldozers killing wolves(if you want to truly drag the issue on here in this thread)?*

*One quick warning about Aspenal and Dutcher , nobody in business will pay for or allow utillisable space for Wolves directly at their pay rates except under the tear jerker principle you imply and they have had, so saving wolves in that context is not real hence any use of Ditcher and that other um relevent woman is worthless to the point of attempting to save them and their Whales . Its done by "Animal technicians" or "Keepers" at the best economically , and they require(for wolves) to have both a relationship and hierarchy order in their pack called BOHHHZZZZ!!! for it successfully operate.
READ BELOW, YOUR PULLING YOURSELVES CONTINUALLY AROUND THE WORLD*

Firstly, in many governments natural management schemes conjunct to primary production, Wolves are not ".....a magnificent 'wild' animal!!....", they have the direct status of a "*pest species called a vermin*" or "*invasive pest species*".
*Your tear jerker , heart rending fantasy about wolves is not how it goes for them anywhere in the world!*

The designation of them is they may be destroyed by shooting or baiting pending approval of bait lays schematics assessment else you could simply listen to rapid fire. 
*OK? so we have that clear.*
In Australia, Dingos are baited regularly, and bait lays are with a chemical called 1080 at a rate of 10-40(depended by assessment) baits p/Kilometer.
_*1080 and Hybridisation *_are both causing an ecosystem crisis because of their poor ecological effect. 
All either do is remove a predator that has been in equilibrium with Australian ecosystem for the past 3000 years and blast the living lights out of anything else that comes into contact with the bait killing many non target species. (note: Many countries do not support 1080 usage and it is felt its too unclean at killing effect and causes too much suffering as some special test studies of the chemical on target species has shown).

Below is the legislative legal designation of Dingos, on points(3 of them "allow them to alive under controlled conditions in a few states").
Most including Pure Dingos are only with the NPWS safety boundary, but if they wander they are then as below, a stipulated pest and vermin that obliges them to be destroyed.

_*note: *Companion Animals Act 1998*, the Exhibited Animals Protection Act 1986 and the Animal Research Act 1985 or any other legislation made in replacement of any of those Acts_


> Part of "Schedule 7" relating invasive pest species management.
> 
> =========================================================================
> RURAL LANDS PROTECTION ACT 1998
> ...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

nicephotog said:


> Firstly, in many governments natural management schemes conjunct to primary production, Wolves are not ".....a magnificent 'wild' animal!!....", they have the direct status of a "*pest species called a vermin*" or "*invasive pest species*".
> *Your tear jerker , heart rending fantasy about wolves is not how it goes for them anywhere in the world!*
> 
> The designation of them is they may be destroyed by shooting or baiting pending approval of bait lays schematics assessment else you could simply listen to rapid fire.
> ...


well we've taken this thread completly off topic i think is discusting & outrageous that these wonderful animals are classed by some as vermin! people should be finding ways to live along side them before they are gone for good!

some farmers do very well living side by side with predators instead of trying to wipe them out....take a look at this ...Meet the Producers


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

> • Using guardian animals such as llamas, donkeys and dogs to keep livestock safe
> • Scheduling pasture use when predation pressure is low
> • Grazing cattle with smaller livestock to protect sheep, goats and calves
> • Timing calving and lambing to avoid predation risk
> ...


Another unreal thought but great! that its put to practice where
it can.
Unfortunately, if you look at the rainfall point behind those
lands at Meet the Producers , you
notice they are not actually properly endangered to drought
on the economic side of it.

The situation there is far from many habitats and certainly a
useless point to apply to Australian conditions of only one point
there has true meaning in neglect of sensible practice by 
Australian farmers, that being
..."• Using guardian animals such as llamas, donkeys and dogs to keep livestock safe"...
at a deliberate level.

• Scheduling pasture use when predation pressure is low
_24 hours 7 days , no actual rule in it
note: what pasture(is there any)_

• Lambing in sheds, secure fenced lots or protected pastures
_Anyone whom had to change their practices for that would ask
"who will pay for it?"_

• Making frequent and unpredictable patrols in pastures
_Human Resource limited (especially by economics as much any time)
but is often done._

• Learning the ecology and habits of area wildlife
_done often enough or baiting would not be able to be requested_

• Protecting vulnerable animals by fencing out predators
_They did that with a Dingo fence under some terms of that point
but again, "who will pay for it?"_

• Grazing cattle with smaller livestock to protect sheep, goats and calves
_Not against wolves particularly, but an interesting concept_

Just to clear something about the use of the word "pet".
In the terms i continually see it from here, from you, and others, a great Dane 
is a "pet" because of its genetics as familiaris.
But to introduce hypothetically a fragile old lady that needs a "pet" to keep.
It runs much in the same context, but as i restrict it to as any others sensibly that
for her "it is not a pet that would be suitable and thus not a pet" because of the
environment and conditions it will be living in not containing effective parameters for
safety control and care in general.

It's simple enough to comprehend, there are definitely restrictions for who and where 
wolves can be kept but it's not worthy of the levels of narrow minded or emotionally 
twisted and distorted views of their inherent origin environment(wild or ecologically
genetic inherent psychological) being an excuse for attempting to apply some non
logistical non real world directive of "freedom and wild" as the solution and as its
rights.
Particularly less sensible because some are near extinct and classified as vermin.

Wanting "freedom and wild" for them does not change the real world, neither does it
evaluate to a properly rational way of viewing the credential of being a "personal 
keeper" whether you apply pet or SP animal to it, but with particular reference to pet
because it is well understood that various breeds and sizes of familiaris require
"evaluation" for welfare reasons before they are given a home.

Of this last point(keeping methods and permission allowance and acceptable practice) 
there are both legislated agreed methods in law for species and breeds but for wolves
themselves, until idiots shut up and people can keep or try to keep them , little can
be done to know the limitations and requirements because there
is no known credible data.

*It would be wise by the wolf conservation organistaions around the world to now lose
the "against pet" argument as most "wolf as a pet" legislation of personal keeping 
remains based on unworthy data alike the paranoid depiction of "little red riding hood".
While the animal is better at killing anything than familiaris can ( of which the main concern is
human life ) it does not justify negligent or uneducated handling as a cause by "that it is as its being
entity as a predator with a carnivorous predator ecological toolkit"( as the new park laws for
prevention of conditioning wild animals and code of interaction by tourists / sightseers has been
established because of the beforemention problem ).

Finally, the animal is not near the unfriendly unsuitable creature claimed, it's simply different and
more exagerated in its behavior and requires hierarchical family oriented lifestyle environment
structure, it has many, and really enough parrallels to familiaris to be easy enough to successfully
learn to keep, and keep safely, if , real lifelong data can be compiled and obtained about personal
keeping experiences.

Upon comprehending them from that. People, may well be better and more really adjusted to caring for the
wild animal at a distance not just a wower of a few snaps and pics of a chosen holiday experience
with something no more suitable than is spoken against by the organisations because its in a
compound dying slowly from uneffective handling and uneffective economics and finally going to
extinction.
If they want to save wolves and say they care, then they should choose a few in the compound
and put their throat where their proffessional weight salary is about it, open the gate and get to it
out there.
There was a bloke in Canada(i think it was Canada) raised geese and encouraged them flying with
an ultra-light aircraft.
*

*A wolf is not a Red Bellied Black Snake that sits on a house front concrete pad being fed the odd egg,
it definitely requires restrictions and knowledge of how to keep them. By reality its better to replace
mum than Alpha but the boss in the wild does do some of the raising so the blend can be thrown in.*
All required is sensible environmental recommendations and physical aspects of the
person to be the main keeper.
_1. Personal physical fitness
2. Economic stability
3. Psychological stability
4a. Aggressive breed handling experience
4b. Knowledge/experience of the target species to be kept_


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

Blinking heck.. 
Gonna have to ring vbullitin, and get them to make there servers bigger.. all these big words are taking up so much space!!!


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

Here's a bit more about the off-topic but you could find it interesting!



> Reference:
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...g-advice-very-agressive-pup-5.html#post791796


There is an amazingly effective drive to navigate by exploration as a primitive community/kingdom to Australia around the fossil time of the first Dingo skeleton that appears to have lasted maybe as much as 500 years.

An immense evidence of massive climatic change, it was almost fatal to everything.

-- oldest Dingo fossils 3500"years previous" and 2 x 3000"years previous"

Around 1600 BC there was evidence that from, southern Africa, through Egypt and Nubia to Jordan/Iran Indus/Harappans in India there was a major climatological catastrophe and probably massive drought. Equally with it came war and large collections of mass burial from either war or drought.

Moreover, not much documentation exists from written text/tablets e.t.c. possibly because both water for clay and vegetation would probably have been sparse. However, there are some from Egypt telling of many atrocities and as much as declaration of ongoing famine and people eating their children(cannibalism).

It appears that the Hyksos had no origin but were considered asian perhaps canaanite. The Indus civilisation was 2000 miles( 3 days by boat direct note: 6-8 days from around Madagascar to W.Australia ) from Egypt and principly was well up inside from the coast but stretched into Afghanistan. 
The areas all its remains are found is not habitable and not farmable and almost desert since its sudden disappearance.

-- A final note, Hyksos brought the chariot to Egypt around 1600 BC , the earliest Chinese chariots are 1300 BC.

_Added since next post
====================_

To give you an idea of the immense flexibility of travel was actually available, here is a link about a center named
"Lothal" on west indias coast and various other kingdoms in the persian gulf that pre date 1400 BC - 1600 BC by 1000 years wander.
http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/sarasvati/html/artefacts.htm

and for those that do not like to read (2000 BC)
http://www.indohistory.com/lothal_conception.html

Unfortunately the nuisance in trying to find archeological shipping data(Marine Archeology) is most data written and churned out is about and is on dry land and not particularly about trade but a few prominent citizens whom made the big spending and heavy decisions that shaped history.

Here's a middle Assyrian trading seal with a domestic dog, around 1300 BC:
http://www.arthistory.upenn.edu/spr03/422/April8/240.JPG


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

nicephotog said:


> Here's a bit more about the off-topic but you could find it interesting!
> 
> There is an amazingly effective drive to navigate by exploration as a primitive community/kingdom to Australia around the fossil time of the first Dingo skeleton that appears to have lasted maybe as much as 500 years.
> 
> ...


thanks for that


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## catellkai (Aug 1, 2009)

Hi was reading your add, it must be hard on you both to have to deal with.I thought mine was bad, but its nothing like that, io no it may seem a bit harsh and it could make it worse but have you thought of a muzzle to stop him even trying to bite you.He must bite very hard to draw blood, what about a sernum its like a herbal liquid that can calm aggression,or i am sure the vets do a plug in type freshner that omits a hormone to calm the dog, the have fantastic results for dogs on firework nights.Its not cheap to by but it could be worth mentioning to vet about getting one even if its only used till your behaviorist has started to make progress.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

3 red dogs said:


> Blinking heck..
> Gonna have to ring vbullitin, and get them to make there servers bigger.. all these big words are taking up so much space!!!


that is the only sensible thing that has been said on this thread.
I dont think I have ever read such reams of rubbish.

Poor OP has obviously been chased away as we havent had an update - or has a seperate thread been started.


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

*Here's one you'd all like:*

First dingoes were seafaring puppies  News in Science (ABC Science)



> ABC.net.au :
> The results showed that dingoes were not descended from Indian or Arabian wolves as previously thought, said Australian researcher and co-author Dr Alan Wilton from Sydney's University of New South Wales.


You can also read the article about *"Thai Ridgebacks"* at another site on the net.
Dingos are considered in science in Thailand population to _"fill the niche between wolves Pariah dogs and Domestic dogs_".

_*...And is our aggressive pup better?...*_


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

nicephotog said:


> *Here's one you'd all like:*
> 
> First dingoes were seafaring puppies  News in Science (ABC Science)
> 
> ...


well thanks very much for this so i was correct after all Dingo's are decended from domestic dogs, hence why they can be domesticated unlike wolves

"The dingo may not be as wild as it seems 
Dingoes, Australia's wild dogs, are descended from Asian domesticated dogs not wolves, according to international research.

They might have all come from one pregnant female ancestor, which would have lived about 5000 years ago and travelled to Australia by boat.

Swedish researcher Dr Peter Savolainen from the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm led the research published today in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Dingoes look like domestic dogs but have some important physiological and behavioural differences. For example, dingoes breed only once a year rather than several times a year, and howl rather than bark.

So, people have long debated whether dingoes were more closely related to wolves than domestic dogs.

This latest research compared changes in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) in dingoes, wolves and dogs to see which animals were related.

Mitochondrial DNA, found inside the cell's power-generating organelle, is inherited from mother to daughter, and is a tool molecular biologists use to track genetic changes over time to give clues to genetic ancestry.

The researchers compared the mtDNA of 211 Australian dingoes with 676 dogs throughout the world, 38 Eurasian wolves and 19 samples of mtDNA from the bones of dogs that lived in pre-European times in the islands of Polynesia.

The results showed that dingoes were not descended from Indian or Arabian wolves as previously thought, said Australian researcher and co-author Dr Alan Wilton from Sydney's University of New South Wales.

They were descended from domestic dogs that lived in southern Thailand and China and would have arrived in Australia by boat"


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

> ...Dingoes, Australia's wild dogs, are descended from Asian domesticated dogs not wolves...


No they are not!
They are wolves.
*They are more alike as a wolf *what coyotes(Canis Latrans) is in how it relates to them, but still a wolf(Canis Lupus).
Not the same but almost.
Everything is considered to have come from the Grey Wolf.
They sit between Thai pariah dogs(pseudo domestic 5000 YP) and Wolves.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

nicephotog said:


> No they are not!
> They are wolves.
> *They are more alike as a wolf *what coyotes(Canis Latrans) is in how it relates to them, but still a wolf(Canis Lupus).
> Not the same but almost.
> ...


well not according to your own link!:laugh:

by the way this sentence youre quoting....'*Dingoes, Australia's wild dogs, are descended from Asian domesticated dogs not wolves*......is copied and pasted from YOUR link!!


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

What you want to realise there is both the journalism and the lack of finalised research done about them.

The problem of what they say is amusing now because unlike domestic dogs *they(Dingos) have all of the morphology and psychology* of wolves that puts them in Lupus category.
Another amusing way of solving that is _to shift *the value of and calibration of *the Familiaris relationship to wolves_ , much closer to a wolf for the psychology and genetics.

Dingos have every facet wolves _Lupus_ has. Familiaris has many differences.

Perhaps the subtle joint there is an ability to domesticate(whatever context you meant by that) because they are finaly able to settle down to more personal owned not specially kept situation.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

what do you think of this then?


Observations on West Indian feral dogs show a different picture. These dogs only had a single oestrus cycle & males show paternal behaviour, they stayed with the pups at the den & protected them from intruders.

so it looks like mans domestication of the dog has a lot to do with its breeding patterns, left long enough maybe they would revert back to their wild ancestors breeding cycle (as above), so would never breed before they were at least a year old & maybe like Wolves,Dholes or Dingos only usually if they were the Alpha pair, so probably more like 2-3yrs or older.


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

> what do you think of this then?
> 
> Observations on West Indian feral dogs show a different picture. These dogs only had a single oestrus cycle & males show paternal behaviour, they stayed with the pups at the den & protected them from intruders.


*Where is your sourcing document URL? I would like to read it/them.*

*Here is the PNAS document relating the latest mtDNA (...*
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/33/12387.full.pdf
...) *trace study of has me falling down the wall laughing for a particular special reason.*
The little problem it has attempted to overcome as usual is cost effectiveness matched to accuracy by 
1. sampling over the expanse locations of Australia.
2. _The calibration of what it is makes a so-called pure dingo_ is not much better collected and set _in accuracy *in DNA sample numbers*_ by the origin studies to make the calibration.

Third, i can almost see this in my memory of Anubus, because his morphology matched a wolf down to the _rasp taste buds_ on his tongue, and worse _is a better example of looking on a wolf example of Dingo than most_ though his marking was "only black and white" (However, and, however subtle the markings were, *all were located in the right places* on Anubus).

Many pictures that are shown in scientific journals remind me of a Red Heeler(in short, some old Dingo) but simply has the standard ginger or yellow with white marker points, on the chest, inner legs, muzzle and tail tip.

*Unfortunately, i do believe they may have missed!!!*
_And thats not funny sitting here from this perspective._

There are three distinct sets of Familiaris to screen for and be determinate of in the samples because of their presence.
1. The various British Collies of the 1800's that were introduced and the Base larger dogs of the Cattle Dog from Britain or elsewhere, and again the Hunting dogs. _( 1.That takes care of the Primary production Sector. )_

2. Greyhounds and Whippets for Racing industry that were introduced in the 1800's. _( 2.That takes care of the Entertainment Industry )_

3. Pariah Dog and other base Familiaris that was mixed in to it originally in Thailand , abberatively, because of its known existance to Dingos' Hereditory._ ( 3.That takes care of what obviously isn't the actual wild-dog/wolf it is )_

However, it is known their was some idly inset (incidental) domestic genetics in them from Thailand and that appears to have been such from archelogical records of Thai work(is considered to be in Thailand what that DNA lump(of familiaris) is in them).

*This is my journalistic research and article i wrote about the Origin of Dingos in Australia:*
http://www.nicephotog-jsp.net/DingoOrigin.pdf


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

ive read quite a lot of this its really interesting

Dog behaviour, evolution, and cognition - Google Books


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## nicephotog (Apr 23, 2009)

Some type of pseudo synthetic genetic evolution(if you will...) no doubt has its existance upon behavior and morphology relating human interference and vice versa.

But the probability of it being true human interference (excepting propagative signaling of the chemical switches of evolution like trait usage from differences of plentiful bounty and affairs or draught and famine { a genetic 'tis to Pavlovs' dogs at dinner time }) is not much in my mind, i think _genetic diversity of the species_(of which you cannot get more diverse than mongrel/feral) that can carry latent and hidden genes stored somewhat (not in use) but passed on is probably the reason.

If you remember topically anything of argument or debate of criminology of the human species and motivations, then the problem of food and its reliability is always mentioned at bare levels either as argument to economic motive or situational excuse.
Animals in domestication are no different, they won't stay where there is no reason to, and Burma and for most many eastern/middle eastern is/are a third world economically and technologically. It's not that the feral dogs are not domesticated at some point originally, it's simply their situation is not likely to be reliable either at _genetic imprint of food reliability_ or _bloodline reliability_.

NOTE:


> http://www.pnas.org/content/101/33/12387.full.pdf
> 
> *
> DOCUMENT TITLE:
> ...


Above is an assay of the mtDNA testing done in 2004.
post964795

For clarity in what i said in the previous post too about sufficient derogations of Dingo genetics:
c1880 A.D. is around the creation time of the Kelpie showing that considerable usage of imported dogs would be present.
THOMAS EDOLS, FOUNDATION BREEDER AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF "THE BARB"

http://www.wild-canidae-conservation-forum.netne.net/

_Dog behaviour, evolution, and cognition By Adam Miklósi
Thats a good article, goes onto my list of to aquire._


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## dogskool (Sep 6, 2009)

*Reasons for Biting The Owner*
When a dog bites when we are reaching toward them, it is usually to keep our hands away from them because they think we are going to take something away from them or maybe they think we are going to hurt them. In either case they are saying to us, keep away from me.

Our goal then is to teach them that when a hand reaches toward them, it is not to take something from them or hurt them, it is to bring some good or better than what they have presently. *This is a mind set.* So to begin on this journey we must establish some simple rules and games to get this message across.

One of the first things that I recommend for aggression towards the owner is to pick up all the toys and pick up the food bowl from the area. These are your items that you share with her.

*Playing Games to Create the Mind Set*
After you have gathered all the toys, you need to rate them as to the least favorite to the most favorite. This is easy to do. Simply hold two toys, one in each hand and present them to her. She will choose the one she like better. By presenting each toy side by side we can allow her to show us which is her favorite. Just like in a tournament toy A vs toy B. Compare each toy in this way to find the order of favorites.

When ever you play with her start with the least favorite toy. Then during the course of the play introduce the next favorite toy by showing it to her and waving it around. This should cause her to drop the first toy to get the next favorite toy. As soon as she drops the toy she is holding, throw the toy you have and while she is running to get that one pick up the one she dropped.

Never play tug of war with these toys and never take a toy from her. Our goal is is to introduce that we will always bring something better to the game. Never remove something from her, but always give her something better. Tugging games tend to introduce competition between the dog and owner. Letting her win the toy builds her confidence that she can over power you, but taking it from her hurts her confidence and can create bad feelings. If the dog wants to tug the toy from me, I always let the dog take the toy without a tug game. _(If I want the toy I will exchange it for something better)_

After she has the next favorite toy remove the lesser toy and put it away. Work your way up to the most favorite toy and after a little play let her get bored with it. You can exchange this toy for a super treat to continue play. Remember, the treat you present she must want that more than the toy.

Also remember, all the toys and the food are yours that you are sharing with her. You bring these valuable objects to her. This is all part of the mind set, that if we invade her space it is for something good to happen.

This play exercise takes place during the course of her rehabilitation.

*Feeding Exercise To Create The Mind Set*
The next exercise deals with meal presentation. This is an eight week course of action. Anytime she shows any aggression you will need to go back to the previous step in the program. So it can take longer than eight weeks.

*Step one (two weeks)*
For the first two weeks all meals must come from the owners hands in small amounts. Grab four or five kibbles and hand feed her. Take your time. You can also ask her to perform simple exercises for these bits of her meal. The important point here is that your scent is paired with her meal and you are in charge of when she gets it. It also establishes that when you reach toward her it is to bring her something of value _(food)_.

*Step two: (two weeks)*
Replace the food bowl. Every two minutes walk up to it and drop in four or five kibbles and walk away. Wait two minutes and repeat. Continue this pattern until her meal is gone.

Of course she will finish these few kibbles very quickly, but our goal is to create the mind set of her wanting us to invade her space _(food bowl)_.

*Step three: (two weeks)*
Separate her meal into two halves. Put half of her meal in the bowl and while she is eating walk up and reach down and drop in a super tasty piece of food. This food has to be way better than her meal. After she finishes this bowl of food wait for two minutes and do the same thing with the last half of her meal.

Again the whole premise of this exercise is that we are trying to create the situation that if we reach down to invade her space we are bringing something better than what she already has. Creating the situation where she would pray for you to invade her space.

*Step four: (two weeks)*
Now we are ready to test our training. Put down her entire meal and while she is still in the process of eating it, call her and show her your super food. If she leaves her meal to come to get the food you have then we are on the right track. Give her this treat and let her return to her meal and finish it.

This test shows us that she understands that we do have someone better to offer her.

If she does not come to you and finishes her meal and then come to you, then I would go back to step three for another week.

*Keeping Up On The Training*
Of course, these are behavioral exercises and should be done in conjunction with an obedience program. Obedience has many important lessons to teach impulsive puppies. The stay exercise is important because it will teach her that she can not always do what her first impulse tells her to do. Before you can teach stay you must work your way up to that level of complexity. A well structure training program will present this in a way that it is easy for you and your dog to understand.

Dogs that bite need to know that they live in a structured environment that has rules and boundaries and that they simply can not behave like wild animals while living with people.

Attention exercises are one of the best exercises that you can do with an aggressive dog for many reasons. One reason is eye contact is not a threat, second focusing on you and ignoring everything around them is a great way to build a strong bond and connection between the dog and the owner.


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## Cheesywotsit (Aug 21, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Do NOT trying pinning/alpha rolling your dog. Its a sure fire way of getting bitten, and getting bitten badly. .


What is pinning and alpha rolling ?? please


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

I have had all special needs dogs and the most special one I had was a shihtzu. He would turn on you for no reason but he was so loving and once you got his collar on after a fight of wills he would love a walk. Good luck with your dog and don't give up.


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2009)

Cheesywotsit said:


> What is pinning and alpha rolling ?? please


It is essentially forcing your dog into a submissive position.

Some don't like it and think that any degree of rough housing will turn your dog into some sort of mixed up mess.

Others think that there needs to be an alpha in the home, YOU, and the dog needs to know it's place.

Our 8 week old puppy is very nipy and we are doing the bite inhibition tricks. I would forgive the puppy just about anything to be honest but if an older dog in my house was biting me it would soon become apparent who was the alpha. I wonder if the situation would ever arise though as I guess the dynamic would already be in place.


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