# Stopping a ball obsessed dog



## samlf (Oct 7, 2010)

My new collie girl is 18 months old but had absolutely zero training before we got her (4 weeks ago), shes very intelligent so house trained, sit, stay, down, paw, recall was learnt very quickly. However, we have discovered that she is completely ball obsessed! this is not a problem for training etc, but the problem is her recall - it is pretty much 100% apart from when there is a football around, she is completely oblivious to us and just totally focused on chasing the ball. This is a real shame because it means we have to be SO careful where we let her off now when really she should be running around with our other dog.

Does anyone have any tips how to stop her? We always take tennis balls with us which she loves, but mostly ignores when there is a football around. The only thing I could think of is water spray, we've used this to stop her barking and it works brilliantly with her, but im not sure if it is a good thing to use when walking her because she might not want to come back to us if we spray her when she chases a ball?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

How can you spray her when she is half way across a field chasing a ball?


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

No problem! Train her with her own ball. I use a ball as a reward for my ball-obessed GSD. Balls on ropes are good for this because you can have loads of fun games with them. Play with this Special Toy and it will become more prized than footballs.


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## samlf (Oct 7, 2010)

Hi thanks for your replies  in response to 'hawksport' we can take her to an enclosed dog exercise area where they play football the other side of the fence so could spray her but i just dont think its the right way to go? 

And in response to 'claireanddaisy' she prefers footballs to tennis balls though? and we did have a ball on a rope for her but she wouldnt play with it, she doesnt understand playing with people because she never has, she'd never seen a toy before we got her! Is it just a case of persevering with her tennis ball, she will came back for me to throw it but then as soon as i throw it she runs back to the football? Or should I take a football with me?


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Water spraying a high drive, highly sensitive dog like a collie (or any dog come to that?)??? :eek6: :nonod:

Rather than punishing her for an innate chase drive and only causing confusion, why not teach her what you do want her to do?

I.E. teach some impulse control exercises? :confused1:

Take a look at these videos:

YouTube - The BEST and FASTEST way to teach STAY
in the above video, in particular take note of the behaviour that Splash performs at 0.40 and 0.52 in the vid- this is what you are aiming for!!!

YouTube - Re: Every Dog Must Know This: How To Train Your Dog To Stay


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## storm_summer (Jul 6, 2010)

In our local [email protected] they have a large football that has rope around it maybe you could get one and this could be her special football that you could throw.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

All my springers have and are ball obsessed, the 2 i have now dont go after footballs or anyone elses ball, but my forst one did. 
I always had a ball with me, the thing is if your dogs recall is good, then he is ignoring you so he can get to the football, he/she doesnt know ownership a ball is a ball he/she is allowed to play with a ball so whats different? the problem with monty was the risk of bursting it as well as not wanting him to just go up and take anyones ball, so we used to let him go over follow him take the ball from him, treat him then give him his own ball, as he was approaching someone elses ball we always repeated "leave it" seems pretty pointless when you know he isnt going to leave it, this is something else your dog has to learn. So leave it allow him to get near, or take it then treat and give him his own ball. Allowing your dog to get near or take it is only when you know the initial leave it (even when he has just noticed it) has failed, do try that first, but when this fails he needs to be shown when he does get the ball that isnt his.

Ime sure someone will come on with some better suggestions but it worked for us.


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## samlf (Oct 7, 2010)

As far as I am aware, and from previous advice and personal experiences there is nothing wrong with spraying a dog with a very fine water mist when they show 'unwanted' behaviour, and it works very well for her, with praise when she leaves/does whatever it is we wanted... correct me if im wrong but its hardly an invasive method?! 
She knows sit stay recall etc perfectly, apart from when there is a ball around!! 
I will try football on a rope for definite, she is starting to get better, I think it will just be a slow process.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Whats she like with squeaky toys either the furry or rubber type ones? If you could get her interested in one of them and get her to enjoy a bit of a tug game then the squeaker might act as a recall device and the game with you the reward. Just a idea?


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

samlf said:


> As far as I am aware, and from previous advice and personal experiences there is nothing wrong with spraying a dog with a very fine water mist when they show 'unwanted' behaviour, and it works very well for her, with praise when she leaves/does whatever it is we wanted... correct me if im wrong but its hardly an invasive method?!
> She knows sit stay recall etc perfectly, apart from when there is a ball around!!
> I will try football on a rope for definite, she is starting to get better, I think it will just be a slow process.


Personally (and I'm sure many positive reinforcement trainers will agree with me), I believe that there certainly is something wrong with using a water spray when the dog is displaying unwanted behaviours. 
Why? First and foremost: Dogs are not stupid. It is YOU that is spraying the water in their face for undesirable behaviours and in many dogs rather than acting as positive punishment (often due to crap time and generally) and being associated with the undesirable behaviour it only becomes associated with the person who sprays them which only serves only to confuse the dog (the dog doesn't know how else to behave!!!) and may create confusion/ conflict around the owner. Think of it from the dog's point of view: _Generally my human is nice but sometimes she sprays me in the face?_

You become inconsistent and unpredictable.

If you do insist on using a water spray. You must:
1. Make sure that your timing is 100% spot on!!!
2. Make sure that there is no way that the dog could link or associate the spray with you!

You will find that with a confident dog being treated with aversives to discourage high arousal hard wired behaviours (e.g. chasing), the water spray makes little difference- the chase is too reinforcing. With underconfident dogs, you will scare the life out of them any many will chase anyway, chasing gives dogs a dopamine boost (hence why stressed/stressy dogs will actively seek opportunities to chase ).. 



> She knows sit stay recall etc perfectly


Sounds great! :thumbup:
However if she doesn't stay with a toy being throw or a ball around it isn't quite perfect just yet! Still some more proofing work to be done. 

Did you have a look at the vids I posted? What did you think?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

samlf said:


> As far as I am aware... there is nothing wrong with spraying a dog with a very fine
> water mist when they show 'unwanted' behaviour, and it works very well for her, with praise
> when she leaves/does whatever it is we wanted... correct me if im wrong but its hardly an invasive method?!


hey, SLF! :--) 
if it's that "fine" that we could call it mist, it won't carry to the dog's face but will be a startling sound - 
the _Fssssshht! _ of the compression, which is far-louder to a dog's more sensitive hearing, 
and presented in their face rudely + abruptly. [dogs BTW can hear a human conversation at normal volume 
over 50-feet away, which humans cannot even begin to approach; they hear both INFRA and ULTRA sound.]

but rather than discuss the subject all over again, here is a thread - 
Water Spraying unwanted behaviours - Pet Forums Community 
more than 100 posts about the very subject. :thumbup:


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

samlf said:


> sit, stay,
> 
> Does anyone have any tips how to stop her? We always take tennis balls with us which she loves, but mostly ignores when there is a football around.


You already have the behaviour and you have the means to train it but you need to swap the tennis ball for the football i.e. ignores the football when the tennis ball is around.

You don't need water other than to give the dog a drink but what you do need is the thing that is at the core of her interest - a football. Get yourself down the local sports shop or just have a look around and you may find one.

So the ultimate outcome is to be able to roll the football, throw the football, bounce the football and her not move a muscle. This is 100% going against her instinct to chase moving objects so you have to reward her for not reacting not punish her for doing what she is born to do.

Now, we need to think of a football just being a bigger tennis ball just as a sofa is a bigger dog bed. If you don't want your dog on the sofa then you tell them they shouldn't be there and reward them for being on their bed. The same goes for what you want to achieve here but with a few different steps.

You state that you and your dog are in an enclosed area with a fence but the dog can see people playing with footballs outside the fence and will not stop focussing on them. This is like you watching TV. It looks really interesting, fun and exciting but you can't get to do it so the best you can do is to watch and become engrossed thinking about doing it and then the whole room fades into the background, your partner's conversations turn to white noise and the smell of tea cooking just becomes normal unscented oxygen. The only thing that will probably bring you back to reality is something more distracting, more rewarding and you might have to be nudged to snap you out of it initially.

So you go to the enclosed area when there are people playing football but you keep the dog on a lead. As she starts to focus on the guys playing playing football you can call her away as you walk away. If she follows then she gets massive reward, fuss and a play with a tug toys or something. If she doesn't then you apply a bit of pressure to the lead to gesture that you want her follow. Even if she moves her paw then you should at least acknowledge it. Apply a bit more pressure and lots of encouragement and as soon as she starts to lean her body towards you or peel herself away from the exciting programme you need to praise her and really encourage her to follow through. You are now becoming slightly more exciting than Match of the Day. Once she is walking away with you then you have to become Super duper exciting so lots of praise, interaction, play and rewards be it food or toys. You are going to have to do this a fair few times but if you keep your eye out for her gaze becoming a little too fixed on what it happening away from you then you need to interrupt it and begin the distraction process and follow it through, then again, then again, then again. Eventually you will not have to interrupt the gaze quite so soon as she will be listening for that queue that all the fun in the world is coming her way but from over there instead of on the football pitch.

The other option is football in one hand, tennis ball in the other, dog watching you and you're in the back garden or secure area without any other distractions.
You place the football on the ground and put your foot on it to prevent it rolling around or moving if the dog pounces on it (this will only make it more interesting - to a collie if it moves it's interesting, really interesting no matter how many times it sees it but you have to show them where the best reward is for chasing). Allow the dog to sniff the football, jump around it in a play bow or whatever it wants to do but you must not encourage it. Encouragement or any other sounds at this stage only reinforce the dog that you are joining in and adding to the excitement. Now what you want to do is to bend down and hold the tennis ball in front of the dog. Now that you have the tennis ball between the dog and the football you can roll it away from the football. If the dog chases it then bingo but if the dog doesn't move then calmly pick the football up, walk over to the tennis ball, pick that up, place the football down with your foot on it again and start again. Eventually the dog will go after the tennis ball, you might need to wave the tennis ball about and make excited noises whilst doing so but eventually the dog will go after it. When it does then praise wildly, throw the tennis ball again and make a huge fuss. 
You are not moving the football yet so it is static and therefore not all that exciting.

Once you can get to the point of placing the football down, putting your foot on it and throwing the tennis ball with the dog chasing it every time then you can up the stakes. By this I mean keeping your foot on the ball but rolling the ball around with your foot so you control the movement. Throw the tennis ball. If the dog doesn't not go for it then pick the football up, go get the tennis ball and start again. We are always making the tennis ball the most exciting object whilst keeping the football under our control just the way you do with the sofa and the dog's bed - the sofa is more desirable because it's bigger and that is where you sit but you keep it under control and make the dog's bed far more exciting through having chews there, rewarding there and making a nice fuss of the dog when they are on the bed.
Once you can get the dog chasing the tennis ball every time your roll the football about with your foot then you can up the stakes again by bouncing the football a bit, then a lot, then throwing both balls and only wanting the tennis ball back, throw the tennis ball but make the dog wait before releasing to go fetch, throw the tennis ball and stop then make the dog wait then release the dog to chase then stop the dog chasing before releasing it again to fetch the ball and whatever else you can think of.

The most important thing to remember is to have fun being an idiot to distract your dog. Have fun channelling your dog's natural instincts into what you want to happen. Restrict the dog being able to chase using a lead for a while whilst you can control the chase with distraction or command.

Any questions or what not then drop me a line.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

hawksport said:


> How can you spray her when she is half way across a field chasing a ball?


You use a remote spray collar. This worked very well for my collie-cross who was just the same with football games. Spray when the dog is running away from you towards the football, ignoring your calls for her to stop and come back, but not when she's near the football-playing humans.


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## MissusMayhem (Aug 14, 2010)

lemmsy said:


> Water spraying a high drive, highly sensitive dog like a collie (or any dog come to that?)??? :eek6: :nonod:
> 
> Rather than punishing her for an innate chase drive and only causing confusion, why not teach her what you do want her to do?
> 
> ...


awesome link!!


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## Crazy spaniels (Jun 12, 2013)

My springer spaniel is the same, he could be the other side of a field and spot a football, I need advise too, as have 2 springers and the one obsessed sees the ball hell run the whole field too ball and my younger one runs too have no control


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Might be a good idea to have your dogs on leads then?

*Why cant I get a reliable recall?*

Come is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.

Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into

At some point in time, usually from around 6  10 months, depending on the individual, Velcro dog will morph into Bog off dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

*How and when do I start with a puppy?*

My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.

Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.

By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:

 Come from across the room. 
 Come from out of sight 
 Come no matter who calls
 Come even if you are busy doing something else
 Come even if you are asleep. 
 Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
 Come even if you are eating

Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

To train this, or any other behaviour:

1. Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2. Provide sufficient reward

Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

 Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
 Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
 If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
 Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
 Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the value of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dogs life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

*What about an older or rescue dog?*

Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

Divide the days food ration up into small bags (between10  30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying too bad and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

Hunger is very motivating!

For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog 

*How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?*
Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your helper simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because its getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dogs name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

*Courses*

How to Change Predatory Chase Behaviour in Dogs with David Ryan

When: Saturday 28 Sep 2013

Where: Otterbourne Village Hall, Otterbourne, Winchester SO21 2ET

Details: 10am- 4pm registration from 9.30am. £40 per person, lunch included

Throwing a ball for a game of chase is an enjoyable and rewarding experience for many owners and their dogs. For other owners canine chase behaviour turns into a nightmare when their dog chases cyclists, cars or sheep. When their dogs choose what to chase it can compromise owners financially, cause the target severe injury or even death, and threaten the life of the dog. This seminar looks at the reasons for the problem, the more effective solutions and how to control the behaviour.

David Ryan followed 26 years as a police dog handler and Home Office accredited training instructor with a postgraduate Diploma in Companion Animal Behaviour Counselling, with distinction, from Southampton University, an internationally recognised centre of excellence for animal behaviour studies. In 2008 he was certificated as a Clinical Animal Behaviourist by the prestigious Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour.

He was chair of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors from 2009 to March 2012 and currently works as a companion animal behaviour consultant, being an independently vetted member of the UK Register of Expert Witnesses since 2008.

David has appeared in the internationally scheduled television series Crimefighters focusing on his remarkable and fascinating work with police dogs, and as a guest on the BBC 4 programme Its only a theory, discussing how dogs have evolved to bark. His dog behaviour articles have appeared in publications as diverse as the Daily Telegraph, Womans Own, Your Dog and Veterinary Times.

He has been invited at various times to lecture to the Companion Animal Behaviour Therapy Study Group, BSc Animal Behaviour Students at Bishop Burton College and Myerscough College, and Pet Rescue/rehoming Centres, including Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, Merseyside Dogs Trust and Wood Green Animal Shelter. He is currently a guest lecturer on Newcastle Universitys MSc in Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare.

Davids unique blend of practical experience and theoretical knowledge of canine behaviour fuel his particular interest in inherited predatory motor patterns and the lengths to which pets will go to find a way to express them, usually despite their owners best efforts

Events | Dog Events| Winchester | Positive Training for Canines

*Books*

Line Training for Dogs
By Monika Gutman

Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts 
By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
by David Ryan

Teach your Dog to Come When Called
By Erica Peachey

Training your Dog to Come When Called
By John Rogerson

Total Recall
By Pippa Mattinson

*DVDs*

Line Training for Dogs
By Monika Gutman

Really Reliable Recall 
By Leslie Nelson

Training the Recall
By Michael Ellis

Your clever dog: Getting your dog to come when called 
By Sarah Whitehead

Does your dog whizz back to you as soon as you call his name?

Can you call him to you even when there are other dogs or distractions? Teaching your dog to come to you when you call is the cornerstone of training and the gateway to allowing him more freedom in the park.

If your dog has selective deafness, ignores you in the garden or the park, or would rather play with other dogs than come when you call, this specially designed training session is for you.

Ideal for starting out with puppies or rehomed dogs, and also for dogs that ignore you or are slow to come when called, despite previous training.

Including:
 How to know whats rewarding for your dog and whats not
 Five times when you shouldnt call your dog!
 Using your voice to call versus using a whistle
 What to do if you call and your dog doesnt come to you
The pack contains: A clicker, long line (worth £10), training manual, instructional DVD: 55 mins approx running time including Bonus trick, Bonus Training Session, Intro to Clicker Training, Q & A with Sarah

Dogtrain.co.uk

*Website articles:*

How to use a long line properly here (under information to download)

www.dogspsyche.co.uk

http://www.apdt.co.uk/content/files/training-tips/RECALL.pdf

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/reliable_recall.pdf

Deposits into the Perfect Recall Account

List of Reinforcers

http://www.clickerdogs.com/distracti...yourrecall.htm

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/20...call-collapse/

How to Create a Motivating Toy

http://www.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_f...e recall.pdf

Teaching Come « Ahimsa Dog Blog

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-...y-dog-chasing/

Train a

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/te..._to_you_on_cue

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/be...me-when-called


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