# Need last bit of advice then i'll shut-up



## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

Hi all,

I know a lot of you must be sick of me going on about my rat dilema (I'm sick of myself ) After nights of not sleeping through feeling worked up about the 'breeder' i had left a deposit with for 2 baby rats, yesterday I went to see another breeder. This experience was totally different. The rats were all in great cages in the house and were all definately kept as pets. Obviously the babies were gorgeous and I felt a lot better. We have decided to get 2 that will be ready towards the end of August. So what's the problem? I can't stop thinking about the other rats from the first man that were kept in such terrible conditions. If I don't 'save them' they will end up either as snake food or just have an auful existance. It's not the money ( we have left a £20 deposit ) My husband says he does not want to line this man's pockets even more - the rats were £18 each and we'd picked 2.
So, here is were I need more help, I thought we could get the 2 from the good breeder and 1 from the bad one since we had already paid for it, this way I would at least be saving 1 ( trouble is there will always be hundreds more that need saving ) All 3 babies will be ready around the same time. The 1 rat from the bad breeder would have to be picked up a few days before the other 2. I don't know if this is a good idea, I'm not sure how to introduce the other 2 when I get them. They are all boys and all around the same age ( about 6 weeks I think ) It will just mean that 1 will be in his new home for about 4 or 5 days before the other 2 arrive. Will this cause a problem? Does anyone think this is a good or bad idea.
I have had some great advice since joining this forum and will really appreciate some more, then I promise I'll shut up about it!
Thanks
Cal x


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## SlingDash (Jul 30, 2010)

You shouldn't apologise for making topics and asking for advice, and you should never feel obliged to 'shut up' about anything. The forum's here for people to get help and to talk about, and ask, whatever they like.

As for buying from this bad breeder? I, personally, would leave well alone. There are millions upon millions of animals in the world who are born into terrible lives, and by supporting this man's breeding, you are only going to mean his 'business' continues.

Why did you even give him a deposit if the place was so awful?


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## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

I know I was an idiot. I'd been emailing him for around a week making arrangements etc. When we arrived I knew things didn't seem right but I had never been to a breeder before. He did seem very knowledgable and let us hold the babies and they were lovely so I wasn't totally sure of my gut instinct. I kept telling myself that maybe this was how breeders did things. I felt obliged to leave a deposit because that was what we had arranged to do. Stupid I know


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Obviously the ideal would be that you walk away from this guy without him profiting. Unfortunately, as he's already got your deposit, that's not an option, so the only thing you can do now is not give him any more money. Which leaves you with two options - either bite your tongue and take the rattie you've already paid for, or tell him you've changed your mind, WHY you've changed your mind and most likely lose your deposit. I don't think the latter option is going to make him change his ways, so I'd be inclined to just take the one rat you've paid for and put the experience down as 'lesson learnt'.

I wouldn't have thought you'd have much trouble introducing babies to each other, they'll most likely accept each other straight away. I also can't imagine that the 'bad breeder' rat being on it's own for a couple of days would do it any harm... but I don't have a lot of experience with babies, so someone may need to correct me on that! 

Edit: Oh, and don't feel like you have to shut up! People give advice coz they're happy to, and besides we all want to see the pics when the babies arrive!


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## Daisymoo (Apr 14, 2010)

magpie said:


> Obviously the ideal would be that you walk away from this guy without him profiting. Unfortunately, as he's already got your deposit, that's not an option, so the only thing you can do now is not give him any more money. Which leaves you with two options - either bite your tongue and take the rattie you've already paid for, or tell him you've changed your mind, WHY you've changed your mind and most likely lose your deposit. I don't think the latter option is going to make him change his ways, so I'd be inclined to just take the one rat you've paid for and put the experience down as 'lesson learnt'.
> 
> I wouldn't have thought you'd have much trouble introducing babies to each other, they'll most likely accept each other straight away. I also can't imagine that the 'bad breeder' rat being on it's own for a couple of days would do it any harm... but I don't have a lot of experience with babies, so someone may need to correct me on that!
> 
> Edit: Oh, and don't feel like you have to shut up! People give advice coz they're happy to, and besides we all want to see the pics when the babies arrive!


I totally agree with Magpie on everything  also it would be so easy to walk away from the bad breeder if you hadn't already chosen and held one of his baby rats!!! I don't think I could just leave it there I would be thinking about it all the time and at least you will be saving one from a horrible fate!!


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## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

Thanks everyone. Will definately put the photos on as soon as we get the fur babies. 
Cal x


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

A lot of us have been there, hindsight is a wonderful thing, my 3 elderly girls came from a pet shop as I didn't know any better back then & the majority of my previous rats were also pet shop bought. I won't give in to temptation & buy any more from there though as most of them come from rodent farms which are on a par with the 1st breeder you met. I'll be rescuing or buying from a good breeder in future
Also £18 EACH!! Cripes! I don't think I've ever heard of rats that expensive!


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## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

I know I thought OMG when I heard the price but thought perhaps it's because they are from a 'breeder' On top of that the sad rat with the bad breeder is an 80 mile round trip in one direction and the 2 happy rats are an 80 mile round trip in the other. I must be mad. I know my husband thinks Iam.
Thought I'd put a few photo's of our 3 rescue dogs. Flea and Dotty are both rescue greyhounds who had both had a bad life before they came to us and Muppet, well he is just mental. He is a greyhound cross from a rescue home.


Not sure what on earth I've done. Thought the photo's would appear here but they have gone in the attatch files bit. Let me know if you can see them!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

cal123 said:


> I know I thought OMG when I heard the price but thought perhaps it's because they are from a 'breeder' On top of that the sad rat with the bad breeder is an 80 mile round trip in one direction and the 2 happy rats are an 80 mile round trip in the other. I must be mad. I know my husband thinks Iam.
> Thought I'd put a few photo's of our 3 rescue dogs. Flea and Dotty are both rescue greyhounds who had both had a bad life before they came to us and Muppet, well he is just mental. He is a greyhound cross from a rescue home.
> 
> Not sure what on earth I've done. Thought the photo's would appear here but they have gone in the attatch files bit. Let me know if you can see them!


yep, they're visible, lovely looking hounds, that last pic is brilliant:thumbup:


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

cal123 said:


> On top of that the sad rat with the bad breeder is an 80 mile round trip in one direction and the 2 happy rats are an 80 mile round trip in the other. I must be mad. I know my husband thinks Iam


You're not alone, I did a 90 mile round trip to pick up Merlin! 
Your dogs are gorgeous btw!


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## Daisymoo (Apr 14, 2010)

How lovely are your dogs!!!! and hilarious too especially that last photo:lol: its like the ones you see on cards


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## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

Thanks everyone, Flea and Dotty are such good dogs, they are no trouble at all but Muppet is a total pain in the backside and is always in trouble! Flea is the brindle girl, she raced for 5 years which is a lot in greyhound racing terms. Dotty retired at 2 with a bad injury to her thigh that like most racing injuries wasn't treated. Muppet isn't 1 yet so just wants to play and get into mischief permanently - as you can tell by his face!


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

have you reported him to the r/s spca?


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## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

No I havn't because it seems that to keep rats like this is allowed it's just not ethical. I couldn't say they were not clean or fed. He had a ventilation system in the shed and all the babies were friendly. They were not kept in cages and certainly had no toys of any sort. I very much doubt the RSPCA would do anything about it.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

do it anyway, citing possible unsavory breeding practices (possiblity of boys in with girls??), questionable animal housing and lack of apparent stimuli for the animals, and anything else you can think of.

if they visit and don't have a problem then no harm.

unfortunately, he can't be done for appearing ignorant of the animals he breeds.


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

I would report him, simply as hes breaking the AWA amongst other things 

The Animal Welfare Act basically encompasses `5 freedoms`....

1. Freedom from hunger and thirst

2. Freedom from discomfort

3. Freedom from pain, injury and disease

4. Freedom to express normal behaviour

5. Freedom from fear and distress

He is breaking a fair few of them, i would certainly try reporting him, you wouldnt be the first shall we say.


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## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

Do you know if other people have reported him?


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

That would be a yes.


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## forgotten~myth (May 30, 2010)

Never worry about asking for advice- everyone here is here to ask for and give advice!


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## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

It would seem that the RSPCA have done nothing about it then. I spent years supporting the RSPCA, paying out of my wages each month. I have had to ring them 3 times in many years, each time I was really dissapointed with their response.
1. I witnessed some lads throwing stones at young duckling in a local pond. I stopped the car and chased them with my husband. We managed to grab 2 of them and marched them to their homes where we informed their parents. I then rang the RSPCA to inform them, I couldn't tell if any of the duckling were injured but I'm sure they would have been. The RSPCA didn't even come out.
2. I took my daughters to Brownies one night. There was a cat stuck high up on the church roof in obvious distress. Neighbours told me it had been there day and night for 3 days. It was winter and pouring down. I rang the RSPCA, they told me it had already been reported by several people and they were waiting to see if it would come down itself? I drove to the local fire station who informed me they had to wait for the RSPCA to ask them to help! 2 days later the RSPCA acted.
3.Me and my family were on holiday down south. Near to our campsite was a church and grave yard and as wierd as it sounds, on its own in the graveyard tied to a rock with a rope was a sheep. At first it looked funny. There was a block of hay for it to eat and some water. The rope was short and the sheep was unable to move far. There was no shelter. This ruined our holiday. Everyday we went to see the sheep, it was always there, alone. Obviously someone was feeding it but it was a very sad sight. We rang the RSPCA. We felt sure they would be horrified. They informed us that many people had reported the sheep but as it was being fed and was healthy they wouldn't be doing anything about it. I said surley it was cruel to keep and animal on it's own with a rope around it's neck and no shelter. They just repeated that they had been out to the sheep and it was in good health.
Needless to say I have little faith in the RSPCA


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

cal123 said:


> It would seem that the RSPCA have done nothing about it then. I spent years supporting the RSPCA, paying out of my wages each month. I have had to ring them 3 times in many years, each time I was really dissapointed with their response.
> 1. I witnessed some lads throwing stones at young duckling in a local pond. I stopped the car and chased them with my husband. We managed to grab 2 of them and marched them to their homes where we informed their parents. I then rang the RSPCA to inform them, I couldn't tell if any of the duckling were injured but I'm sure they would have been. The RSPCA didn't even come out.
> 2. I took my daughters to Brownies one night. There was a cat stuck high up on the church roof in obvious distress. Neighbours told me it had been there day and night for 3 days. It was winter and pouring down. I rang the RSPCA, they told me it had already been reported by several people and they were waiting to see if it would come down itself? I drove to the local fire station who informed me they had to wait for the RSPCA to ask them to help! 2 days later the RSPCA acted.
> 3.Me and my family were on holiday down south. Near to our campsite was a church and grave yard and as wierd as it sounds, on its own in the graveyard tied to a rock with a rope was a sheep. At first it looked funny. There was a block of hay for it to eat and some water. The rope was short and the sheep was unable to move far. There was no shelter. This ruined our holiday. Everyday we went to see the sheep, it was always there, alone. Obviously someone was feeding it but it was a very sad sight. We rang the RSPCA. We felt sure they would be horrified. They informed us that many people had reported the sheep but as it was being fed and was healthy they wouldn't be doing anything about it. I said surley it was cruel to keep and animal on it's own with a rope around it's neck and no shelter. They just repeated that they had been out to the sheep and it was in good health.
> Needless to say I have little faith in the RSPCA


Sadly this is the RSPCA in reality, I've made numerous complaints about animals that have never been followed up. I gave up donating after I rescued a dog from pretty horrible conditions some years ago & they didn't want to know, he ended up at a local rescue instead


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> Sadly this is the RSPCA in reality, I've made numerous complaints about animals that have never been followed up. I gave up donating after I rescued a dog from pretty horrible conditions some years ago & they didn't want to know, he ended up at a local rescue instead


And yet, I was astonished to open the door to a RSPCA inspector in March this year.... investigating a complaint about "animals being kept in dirty conditions" 

It turns out the two blokes in the flat upstairs had complained that I didn't pick up the dog poo in the shared garden often enough for their liking. But by the time the inspector came, they had fenced off their half of the garden and done it up, as they were about to put the place on the market.

So the inspector had nothing to inspect, and probably wouldn't have done if he'd come beforehand. It took me a long time though, to find out it was Them Upstairs, it didn't fully come out until they also reported me to the council for my dog "barking too much". And also gone behind my back and reported me to my landlady BUT NEVER ONCE said anything to my face! :eek6:

When I move out on Monday (evicted, no thanks to them) I have a large plastic dog toy shaped like a huge dog poo. It shall be left on my patio in full sight, every time they open their back door, and I don't think they will be allowed in to remove it.

BTW, their flat's been on the market since April and they've had hardly any viewings.... :dita:


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## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

I know exactly what you mean. All the programmes on the tele to do with the RSPCA make them look like saints and it drives me up the wall. I'm sure they do a lot of good somewhere but sadly I've never experienced it. I live close to quite a few RSPCA dog shelters and they are kept in terrible conditions, it's very upsetting. The dog trust is totally different, all the dogs there have blankets and beds and most have a couch to lounge on, so it's not impossible to give these unfortunate animals a little bit of love. Also Dogs Trust will never put a healthy animal to sleep. Unlike the RSPCA


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

cal123 - just to get back on topic, if you DO take a rat from the bad breeder, please please make sure you fully quarantine it before introducing it to your existing (or other new) rats.

The risk of SDAv is fairly high if they are coming from a less than good breeder (though I know many good breeders have also suffered from this horrible virus). It can also be picked up from visits to pet shops, vets, and wild rats so quarantine should be done as routine anyway.

£18 per rat? Are they gold plated?? 
I've never paid that much.... not even when importing new varieties from overseas (and never charged it either, even for babies from parents that cost me an arm & a leg to import!).


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## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

Thanks hun, 
there is so much I don't know but thanks to everyone on here I'm finding out.

As for the price, I nearly died too - the rats from the good breeder were £10 each and that just went towards vets fees and upkeeping.
One other thing he said aswell, that I now know is rubbish was that he was the only person in the country to breed powder blues !!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

cal123 said:


> One other thing he said aswell, that I now know is rubbish was that he was the only person in the country to breed powder blues !!


Certainly is rubbish - they may not be common.... but that's because they aren't a recognised variety (and probably never will be). Ironically some of the first so-called "powder blues" came from the imports that I and a couple of other people brought in about 10 years ago 

Here's one of mine, who was born in 2001:










More information here although it may be somewhat outdated now:
http://www.nenuphar.plus.com/pendragon/features/bluerats/index.html


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Certainly is rubbish - they may not be common.... but that's because they aren't a recognised variety (and probably never will be). Ironically some of the first so-called "powder blues" came from the imports that I and a couple of other people brought in about 10 years ago
> 
> Here's one of mine, who was born in 2001:


I didn't know powder blue wasn't common (your pic is stunning MM) if I can get a decent pic of Spinks do you think you could do an ID for me? She's a rehome so I don't know much about her history, she's a very silvery blue that is much paler than my other blue girl


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> Certainly is rubbish - they may not be common.... but that's because they aren't a recognised variety (and probably never will be).


Actually... National Fancy Rat Society



> Powder Blue
> To be a pale dove blue colour, with pale silver base fur. Pale silver underbelly. Should be distinctively different to that of the slate colour of the blue rat. Colour to be as even as possible, devoid of dinginess, white hairs or patches. Foot colour to match top. Eyes Black or Ruby.


Tis showable now in NV


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## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

She or he was gorgeous - the 2 from the good breeder that I'm getting are powder blue rex ( one has white stripes down the side ) one is a top-eared and the other a dumbo. The mum is a powder blue top eared teddy-rex and the dad is a smooth coat powder blue dumbo, we all got to hold babies and mum and dad. Sound like i know what i'm talking about, i havn't got a clue but they were lovely anyway! The bad breeder did have what looked like a powder blue adult rat, he said if I wanted that one we could 'discuss the price'


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

cal123 said:


> She or he was gorgeous - the 2 from the good breeder that I'm getting are powder blue rex ( one has white stripes down the side ) one is a top-eared and the other a dumbo. The mum is a powder blue top eared teddy-rex and the dad is a smooth coat powder blue dumbo, we all got to hold babies and mum and dad. Sound like i know what i'm talking about, i havn't got a clue but they were lovely anyway! The bad breeder did have what looked like a powder blue adult rat, he said if I wanted that one we could 'discuss the price'


Another alarm bell, a good breeder won't have assorted prices for different 'unusual' varieties, [email protected] sell dumbos for more than topeared
the 2 from the good breeder sound scrummy & I can't wait for pics


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

Ahhh....the other breeder is in Stoke-on-Trent isnt he?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

spoiled_rat said:


> Actually... National Fancy Rat Society


They came in just before the New Varieties were re-jigged, so they have always been showable (some were shown in the old-style Unstandardised classes).

I think the fact they have lingered in NV for so long speaks for itself - it's unlikely to make it to a fully recognised colour.


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## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

ok, you're freaking me out now, r u psychic?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> Another alarm bell, a good breeder won't have assorted prices for different 'unusual' varieties, [email protected] sell dumbos for more than topeared


I used to sell my Dumbos and Russian Blues for £10, as opposed to £7 for other varieties, which was my only concession to the fact I spent hundreds on bringing in my lines from Holland, Germany and Belgium (also some I imported were bred in those countries from German, Swedish, Australian and USA parents).

I absolutely despise the fact the [email protected] think Dumbos are a different species entirely. Maybe I should write to them! After all, I had some Dumbos from the first litter ever born in the UK, later owned the mum of those litters, and imported a lot more.


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

cal123 said:


> ok, you're freaking me out now, r u psychic?


LOL no, i just have a really freaky memory :lol:


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## cal123 (Jul 31, 2010)

spoiled_rat said:


> LOL no, i just have a really freaky memory :lol:


Ok, I was going to ask you for the lottery numbers this week!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I used to sell my Dumbos and Russian Blues for £10, as opposed to £7 for other varieties, which was my only concession to the fact I spent hundreds on bringing in my lines from Holland, Germany and Belgium (also some I imported were bred in those countries from German, Swedish, Australian and USA parents).
> 
> I absolutely despise the fact the [email protected] think Dumbos are a different species entirely. Maybe I should write to them! After all, I had some Dumbos from the first litter ever born in the UK, later owned the mum of those litters, and imported a lot more.


wow, can't say I blame you for that, there was a breeder who was on here a while back & they had different prices for virtually all their colours


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