# Ultimate Brexit Thread



## Guest

Let´s start a Brexit thread, which will remain open till it is all over and it will die peacefully from old age.
If cats and dogs live peacefully together, surely we can have different opinions and live with that.


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## simplysardonic

Nearly half an hour without a reply on a Brexit thread?!*

Has everyone gone to the pub or something?

*This reply doesn't count, I'm using my Jedi mind tricks to inform you that this reply doesn't exist


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## cheekyscrip

This shows the number of pf members who are not scared/ trusting that will not be closed yet again?:Hilarious:Locktopic:Muted:Sour:Blackeyeunch


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## kimthecat

@simplysardonic I didn't see it until you replied . 

I think some of us will die , peacefully I hope, before this thread dies . 

So , is this to be the only B thread or will others be allowed?


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## Bisbow

Can we not forget about brexit until the new year and enjoy Christmas without any bother, after all, there is nothing we can do about it


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## Guest

Bisbow said:


> Can we not forget about brexit until the new year and enjoy Christmas without any bother, after all, there is nothing we can do about it


No, we can´t forget about Brexit, but we don´t have to read or write about it, or even like anything others have written. It is a free world also not to follow this thread, so I wish you Happy Christmas already now, as we might not meet unti next year.


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## noushka05

I think this is an excellent idea . Everything brexit all on one thread, instead of cluttering the forum up with hundreds of them

(I love that kitten Mrs Zee. So cute! & the dog of course)


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## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> I think this is an excellent idea . Everything brexit all on one thread, instead of cluttering the forum up with hundreds of them


But is any other htread touches on brexit - say Inflation, Election, Gibraltar - then it will be closed?
Taboo game? If you want thread closed ; shout B****?


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## kimthecat

I'm still not clear whether this is going to be the only Brexit thread or can we start others ? 

We're not even discussing Brexit itself , and we're arguing already ,
What are we like ! :Hilarious


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## cheekyscrip

enguin


kimthecat said:


> I'm still not clear whether this is going to be the only Brexit thread or can we start others ?
> 
> We're not even discussing Brexit itself , and we're arguing already ,
> What are we like ! :Hilarious


This it the Ultimate brexit thread, where we discuss what could be discussed and where about Brexit....THE MOther of ALL Brexit Threads and spin offs...:Kiss


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## Bisbow

MrsZee said:


> No, we can´t forget about Brexit, but we don´t have to read or write about it, or even like anything others have written. It is a free world also not to follow this thread, so I wish you Happy Christmas already now, as we might not meet unti next year.


And a Merry Christmas to you and all who contribute to this thread because I will not be


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## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> enguin
> This it the Ultimate brexit thread, where we discuss what could be discussed and where about Brexit....THE MOther of ALL Brexit Threads and spin offs...:Kiss


 But , but , but there will be many tangents and then the different arguments will be hard to follow . It will be too messy , like Brexit itself


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## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> But , but , but there will be many tangents and then the different arguments will be hard to follow . It will be too messy , like Brexit itself


lets put MOds on medicinal cannabis...and carry on Brexit....


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## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> lets put MOds on medicinal cannabis...and carry on Brexit....


:Hilarious S*d the mods , lets keep the pot for ourselves . I think we're going to need it . 

( no offence to our lovely mods meant )


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## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious S*d the mods , lets keep the pot for ourselves . I think we're going to need it .
> 
> ( no offence to our lovely mods meant )


ok, will share and add prosecco...
your sofa or mine (still have it..not for long..)


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## Guest

For those, who happened to miss any of the other Brexit threads, this is what has happened so far:

First there was a lot rumours about EU and it´s horrors. People lived in holes, were enslaved and guarded by dragons in the horrible EU-land. The rulers were bad, mad and evil, and so Britain decided to be free and become rich and mighty again, just the way it was 100 years ago. So people were asked, if they wanted to live in the evil EU land or be free in a rich country, where all were to become rich and young and beautiful. And so it happened that a bit more than 50% of the people said yes, we want to be free and rich and young and beautiful . There were, of course, some evil minded people saying that actually we already are rich and free and young and beautiful and dragons don´t even exist, but no one listened to them. They had after all seen pictures of dragons and read the stories so they knew better.

First the brave knights of Britain wanted to slay the dragons, but to their great suprise they could not find any. Maybe they fled when they heard the brave knights had come after them? But as they didn´t want to come back empty handed, they said the people that they had beaten them and no worry any more, Britain will be free.

Next the knights were sent to get the riches EU had robbed from Britain so that all could be rich in Britain too, and young and beautiful, (as in Britain they had this great organization called NHS, who could perform miracles, but because of those thieving EU people, it had lost all it´s money to perform the miracles).

So off they went, but again, they couldn´t find any treasure hidden anywhere in EU. They only found lots of little treasures, but as Britain already had more than it´s share, they didn´t want to destroy them. Meanwhile in Britain the biggest knight of them all was really lucky and stumbled across a big treasure. Feeling really generous, she gave all the treasure for her best new friend, who claimed to be so very very poor.

The knights got back with really suprising news. Not only was there still no sign of dragons, but the big treasure was nowhere to be found. Only lots and lots of small treasures, which people carried freely and many of them ended in Britain. Now that was big news, and very worrying for the other knights, as they started to feel something is wrong. "What if", they whispered, as they didn´t dare to say it outloud, "what if there never were any dragons or big treasures what were stolen from us in EU, what if all the stories they heard before the big decision were just not true, what then?"

Meanwhile more and more people had become more and more anxious, as they too started to hear rumours that there never had been dragons or big treasures, and they had been free all the time too.

So they knights had secret meetings and thought very long about it all, and decided that they really have no real knowledge about dragons or big treasures and they started to hesitate about the big decision too. They got especially worried about the little treasures ending in Britain, as they all realized that was a good thing.

What to do? Now that is the question we will be discussion for a long time. To brexit or not? In what terms if


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## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> But is any other htread touches on brexit - say Inflation, Election, Gibraltar - then it will be closed?
> Taboo game? If you want thread closed ; shout B****?


For me it is live and let other threads live too. As long as we can keep one thread open until it is all over and no one wants to say anything about Brexit anymore and this will have a peaceful ending. Then we can say that Brexit is dead and long live Brexit.


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## Elles

Is there any point in another Brexit thread? Especially if the point in starting it is to use some analogy about knights, dragons and treasure, to yet again tell leavers they were stupid and uninformed?


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## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Is there any point in another Brexit thread? Especially if the point in starting it is to use some analogy about knights, dragons and treasure, to yet again tell leavers they were stupid and uninformed?


Yes.. 
Not sure it said that, but I like stories.

Especially animal sort. With dragons, lemmings, sheep and Mighty Prince Charming over the water who will come across and deliver us ( from or to evil...depends on your interpretation).


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## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Is there any point in another Brexit thread? Especially if the point in starting it is to use some analogy about knights, dragons and treasure, to yet again tell leavers they were stupid and uninformed?


 hello , I was wondering where you were .


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## MollySmith

May I suggest one thing.

A list of resources, bodies and groups where contributors energies can be legally directed please. This will help everyone to be more useful about Brexit, EU, Spain, Gibralter, the Eurovision or whatever else than going around the circles on a pet forum.

Here's one...
How to find your UK MP


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## cheekyscrip

MollySmith said:


> May I suggest one thing.
> 
> A list of resources, bodies and groups where contributors energies can be legally directed please. This will help everyone to be more useful about Brexit, EU, Spain, Gibralter, the Eurovision or whatever else than going around the circles on a pet forum.
> 
> Here's one...
> How to find your UK MP


Same might be said about potentially every topic?
Go to local Dog Trust, vet, doctor, lawyer, shop, church, ...you name it... I got lots of useful information from those threads, for once. Passed it on...maybe even someone found something useful in mine...
All topics go in circles, reason I do not post so much in Dog Chat...After few years I was really just repeating my posts...just cannot face another thread about crating dogs for hours...but that does not mean others will not go on...
Or ban on fox hunting..surely we could spend our energy on sabotaging hunts? Point of Christmas puppy? We might go campaigning instead?
There should be no topics that are banned per se.


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## MollySmith

cheekyscrip said:


> Same might be said about potentially every topic?
> Go to local Dog Trust, vet, doctor, lawyer, shop, church, ...you name it... I got lots of useful information from those threads, for once. Passed it on...maybe even someone found something useful in mine...
> All topics go in circles, reason I do not post so much in Dog Chat...After few years I was really just repeating my posts...just cannot face another thread about crating dogs for hours...but that does not mean others will not go on...
> Or ban on fox hunting..surely we could spend our energy on sabotaging hunts? Point of Christmas puppy? We might go campaigning instead?
> There should be no topics that are banned per se.


I think Brexit is the biggest subject we've had on here for ages and on other posts we do have resources. Brexit threads are an endless source of memes and baiting. Mostly not constructive at all.


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## Goblin




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## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes..
> Not sure it said that, but* I like stories.*
> 
> Especially animal sort. With dragons, lemmings, sheep and Mighty Prince Charming over the water who will come across and deliver us ( from or to evil...depends on your interpretation).


And let's face it, Scrippy, at this particular time of the year, there are lots of stories, usually in the form of Pantomime.
I'm especially fond of the spectacular long running Panto the Tories have put on at the moment.

I've never seen so much audience participation. It has certainly helped me perfect my_ 'Boos' _and_ 'Hisses':Smuggrin_


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## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> For those, who happened to miss any of the other Brexit threads, this is what has happened so far:
> 
> First there was a lot rumours about EU and it´s horrors. People lived in holes, were enslaved and guarded by dragons in the horrible EU-land. The rulers were bad, mad and evil, and so Britain decided to be free and become rich and mighty again, just the way it was 100 years ago. So people were asked, if they wanted to live in the evil EU land or be free in a rich country, where all were to become rich and young and beautiful. And so it happened that a bit more than 50% of the people said yes, we want to be free and rich and young and beautiful . There were, of course, some evil minded people saying that actually we already are rich and free and young and beautiful and dragons don´t even exist, but no one listened to them. They had after all seen pictures of dragons and read the stories so they knew better.
> 
> First the brave knights of Britain wanted to slay the dragons, but to their great suprise they could not find any. Maybe they fled when they heard the brave knights had come after them? But as they didn´t want to come back empty handed, they said the people that they had beaten them and no worry any more, Britain will be free.
> 
> Next the knights were sent to get the riches EU had robbed from Britain so that all could be rich in Britain too, and young and beautiful, (as in Britain they had this great organization called NHS, who could perform miracles, but because of those thieving EU people, it had lost all it´s money to perform the miracles).
> 
> So off they went, but again, they couldn´t find any treasure hidden anywhere in EU. They only found lots of little treasures, but as Britain already had more than it´s share, they didn´t want to destroy them. Meanwhile in Britain the biggest knight of them all was really lucky and stumbled across a big treasure. Feeling really generous, she gave all the treasure for her best new friend, who claimed to be so very very poor.
> 
> The knights got back with really suprising news. Not only was there still no sign of dragons, but the big treasure was nowhere to be found. Only lots and lots of small treasures, which people carried freely and many of them ended in Britain. Now that was big news, and very worrying for the other knights, as they started to feel something is wrong. "What if", they whispered, as they didn´t dare to say it outloud, "what if there never were any dragons or big treasures what were stolen from us in EU, what if all the stories they heard before the big decision were just not true, what then?"
> 
> Meanwhile more and more people had become more and more anxious, as they too started to hear rumours that there never had been dragons or big treasures, and they had been free all the time too.
> 
> So they knights had secret meetings and thought very long about it all, and decided that they really have no real knowledge about dragons or big treasures and they started to hesitate about the big decision too. They got especially worried about the little treasures ending in Britain, as they all realized that was a good thing.
> 
> What to do? Now that is the question we will be discussion for a long time. To brexit or not? In what terms if


Great post!



MrsZee said:


> What to do? Now that is the question we will be discussion for a long time. To brexit or not?


Now we're all surely better informed & we know brexit is the disaster it was predicted to be - I believe people should be able to change their minds. We should be given a second referendum on the deal. I don't think many people voted leave to pay loads more for an inferior deal, to knock the final nail in the coffin of our NHS etc. There's no shame in changing your mind when presented with evidence, better that then doing irreparable harm to the country.

Citizens in the UK & the USA were duped into voting against their own best interests. Alex Andreou explains how.

_
In summary: ten years ago bankers gambled with all our money, lost most of it, caused a global financial crisis, 
which resulted in austerity, that was manipulated into anti-migrant rage by billionaire tax-exile press-barons,
revitalised the far right and brought Trump and Brexit.

*20,921* Retweets
_


_

*44,683* Likes
_


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## Magyarmum

Zaros said:


> And let's face it, Scrippy, at this particular time of the year, there are lots of stories, usually in the form of Pantomime.
> I'm especially fond of the spectacular long running Panto the Tories have put on at the moment.
> 
> I've never seen so much audience participation. It has certainly helped me perfect my_ 'Boos' _and_ 'Hisses':Smuggrin_


I'm sick and tired of pantos with an all Tory cast so I decided to go to the States to see their latest Broadway show "The Emperor wears no Clothes" aka "It's all Fake News" staring the renowned comedian Donny Whatsisname










Very entertaining and so different from that dull May girl and the horrible Juncker!

Don't worry if you can't get over to see it immediately .... it's got another 3 years to run! Heaven help us!


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## cheekyscrip

MollySmith said:


> I think Brexit is the biggest subject we've had on here for ages and on other posts we do have resources. Brexit threads are an endless source of memes and baiting. Mostly not constructive at all.


Totally understand.
Just that no one has go there if they are bored with it.
That is exactly my point.
This or any other topic.
What is really the point of coming to conversation to tell the participants that it is boring, they should spent their time elsewhere?

Brexit is the most important, life changing event for some of us.

For others , neither directly affected as yet, nor bothered, so could be said about many other topics...


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## MollySmith

cheekyscrip said:


> Totally understand.
> Just that no one has go there if they are bored with it.
> That is exactly my point.
> This or any other topic.
> What is really the point of coming to conversation to tell the participants that it is boring, they should spent their time elsewhere?
> 
> Brexit is the most important, life changing event for some of us.
> 
> For others , neither directly affected as yet, nor bothered, so could be said about many other topics...


You've read my replies on this to Stockwell cat? You should therefore know full well that this affects everyone inc me. This reply makes me cross @cheekyscrip when I've been empathetic to your replies. If you missed my reply about how this affects me, then my point that PF genrates a lot of hot air is largely true.

I'll try again. PF is good for letting of steam and having a rant. But it creates no actual real life momentum in that politicians and decision makers never read it. My point is that those who care so much and devote their energy to posting on PF also need to tackle those people, create petitions and start to campaign in a more proactive fashion if they are not already doing so. I don't think I can make that any clearer!! By creating a list of resources then people will know who to contact and perhaps make a difference.

Away from PF I campaign for lots of things and two of those are related to the impact of Brexit but I chose to talk to my MP not go on and on here unless I think it is of wider interest. It has had some small results.

If I'm being dull and proactive... well good, I'd rather be that than make no impact at all.


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## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> PF is good letting of steam and having a rant. But it creates no actual real life momentum in that politicians and decision makers never read it. My point is that those who care so much and devote their energy to posting on PF also need to tackle those people, create petitions and start to campaign in a more proactive fashion if they are not already doing so. I don't think I can make that any clearer!! By creating a list of resources then people will know who to contact and perhaps make a difference.


Good point .
I'd just like to say that if someone only or mainly uses PF to let of steam and rant and rave then I think they are damaging it .
I use PF for more than one reason , and perhaps the main one ,( and I get the feeling I'm not the only one to use it in this way ), is to escape the real world . I think some members that use PF are more vulnerable than others and to have snipey or sneery replies to their posts can be quite upsetting from people who only care about their political views and nothing else .

Yes they can avoid those type of threads but there have been many lately and not so many chat type threads , also why should members have to keep avoiding threads , why shouldn't they feel they can post with out fear of the replies .
This isn't aimed at any one in particular nor at any one "side" so to speak .


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## Elles

At the end of the day, no one got what they voted for. We aren’t staying in the Eu and we’re not leaving it either. There’s little point discussing it here imo.


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## Goblin

Elles said:


> At the end of the day, no one got what they voted for. We aren't staying in the Eu and we're not leaving it either. There's little point discussing it here imo.


There was no definition for "leave". It's interesting to note that many of those who are vocal supporters of leave constantly change what they voted for according to the current position. Yanis Varoufakis actually defined the UK process of leaving as "start cooking, recipe will follow". Not the way to do things sucessfully.

You have Grimsby which voted to leave.. why is it that the following is in the news http://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/brexit-exemption-sought-grimsby-seafood-736984


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## Elles

At the end of the day, no one got what they voted for, which is the outcome I expected. Big corporations, local Lincolnshire MPs and industry bigwigs want exemptions. What a surprise, you could knock me down with a feather.


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## kimthecat

I dont think its possible and at Gove 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42291191
Voters can use the next general election to have their say on a final Brexit deal, Michael Gove has said.

The environment secretary praised Theresa May's "tenacity and skill" in securing a last-minute deal to end phase one negotiations on Friday.

But, writing in the Daily Telegraph, he said if British people "dislike the arrangement", they can change it.

Reports suggest the cabinet will meet on 19 December to discuss its "end state" plans for Brexit.

............................

And the British people would "be in control" to make the government change direction if they were unhappy, he said.

"By the time of the next election, EU law and any new treaty with the EU will cease to have primacy or direct effect in UK law," said Mr Gove.

"If the British people dislike the arrangement that we have negotiated with the EU, the agreement will allow a future government to diverge."

The next general election is currently due to be held in 2022, three years after the UK leaves the EU.

However, it could be sooner if the prime minister calls one, and MPs agree to it, or if the government collapses.


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## Arnie83

Elles said:


> *At the end of the day, no one got what they voted for*, which is the outcome I expected. Big corporations, local Lincolnshire MPs and industry bigwigs want exemptions. What a surprise, you could knock me down with a feather.


We haven't started discussing the end state yet, though. In fact, not even the UK govt have discussed it among themselves, let alone with the EU. So it's perhaps a bit premature to draw conclusions about what we have or haven't got.


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## Elles

Do you think anyone has or will get what they voted for?


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## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Do you think anyone has or will get what they voted for?


I don't think any Remainer will, for sure.

On the Leavers side, I think so many people voted for so many different things that some will surely do so. Many clearly won't - like those who were attracted by the NHS promise - but if someone voted simply to reduce immigration, as I think quite a lot did, then yes, probably (though maybe not by so much as they thought).

That's speculation, though, which is why I for one will be keeping a close eye on how the Phase 2 negotiations go. They are very very important for the country's future.


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## MollySmith

Thats largely why I'd come on here and


kimthecat said:


> Good point .
> I'd just like to say that if someone only or mainly uses PF to let of steam and rant and rave then I think they are damaging it .
> I use PF for more than one reason , and perhaps the main one ,( and I get the feeling I'm not the only one to use it in this way ), is to escape the real world . I think some members that use PF are more vulnerable than others and to have snipey or sneery replies to their posts can be quite upsetting from people who only care about their political views and nothing else .
> 
> Yes they can avoid those type of threads but there have been many lately and not so many chat type threads , also why should members have to keep avoiding threads , why shouldn't they feel they can post with out fear of the replies .
> This isn't aimed at any one in particular nor at any one "side" so to speak .


Thank you for understanding what I meant  I completely agree with you too.


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## MollySmith

I also wanted to say that I think lots of threads on here have heaps of links to resources. I share a lot about support for the childless, rescues, design. @noushka05 @rottiepointerhouse @ouesi and many others share lots of great advice and resources too that I have found so helpful on lots of subjects.

I don't see why Brexit can't be the same *shrug*. At least it's ranting to the right ears!


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## Guest

Elles said:


> Is there any point in another Brexit thread? Especially if the point in starting it is to use some analogy about knights, dragons and treasure, to yet again tell leavers they were stupid and uninformed?


I don´t think leavers were stupid, but they were IMO uninformed. This is easy to see even now when we are still speculation what it actually means to have Brexit. But the fault lies in politicians, not in people. And I´d love to have another version to my very humble dragon story. That was my version of what happened, because I wanted to show my cards out in the open, as I do have an opinion if Brexit is good or



MollySmith said:


> You've read my replies on this to Stockwell cat? You should therefore know full well that this affects everyone inc me. This reply makes me cross @cheekyscrip when I've been empathetic to your replies. If you missed my reply about how this affects me, then my point that PF genrates a lot of hot air is largely true.
> 
> I'll try again. PF is good for letting of steam and having a rant. But it creates no actual real life momentum in that politicians and decision makers never read it. My point is that those who care so much and devote their energy to posting on PF also need to tackle those people, create petitions and start to campaign in a more proactive fashion if they are not already doing so. I don't think I can make that any clearer!! By creating a list of resources then people will know who to contact and perhaps make a difference.
> 
> Away from PF I campaign for lots of things and two of those are related to the impact of Brexit but I chose to talk to my MP not go on and on here unless I think it is of wider interest. It has had some small results. If I'm being dull and proactive... well good, I'd rather be that than make no impact at all.


Naturally that would be even better that people would show the same activity elsewhere. I have no idea if that happens. Hopefully it does.



Arnie83 said:


> I don't think any Remainer will, for sure.
> 
> On the Leavers side, I think so many people voted for so many different things that some will surely do so. Many clearly won't - like those who were attracted by the NHS promise - but if someone voted simply to reduce immigration, as I think quite a lot did, then yes, probably (though maybe not by so much as they thought). That's speculation, though, which is why I for one will be keeping a close eye on how the Phase 2 negotiations go. They are very very important for the country's future.


That is the reason why I think it is so important to share opinions and facts, as eventually it will affect our lives, nature and even animal´s well being. PF members especially might be very interested in animal legislation e.g.


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## rona

Sooo many thread end up as soap boxes that go over and over the same damn subject by the preachers, even if they started about something completely different


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## Goblin

rona said:


> Sooo many thread end up as soap boxes that go over and over the same damn subject by the preachers, even if they started about something completely different


When it comes down to it, the same damn subject is.. how does leaving help? That basic question still hasn't really been answered. We've had loads of worse off examples and evidence. So why are we leaving?


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## rona

Goblin said:


> When it comes down to it, the same damn subject is.. how does leaving help? That basic question still hasn't really been answered. We've had loads of worse off examples and evidence. So why are we leaving?


I don't care what you or others think, it only matters to me what I believe and how I treat people, though make no mistake, I don't suffer bigots or those that try and tell me how to lead my life.

I do no harm to anyone, ask nothing of anyone, live on my own money, so who's got the right to judge!

Why do you feel the need to constantly with everyone?


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## rona

Goblin said:


> When it comes down to it, the same damn subject is.. how does leaving help? That basic question still hasn't really been answered. We've had loads of worse off examples and evidence. So why are we leaving?


Because the EU is an out of control Juggernaut doing harm to countries far and wide


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## Goblin

rona said:


> Because the EU is an out of control Juggernaut doing harm to countries far and wide


Again, the question how does leaving help? It's a democratic system we had an input into. We cannot push for change outside. Not that our own government is any better.



rona said:


> I do no harm to anyone


Sorry but you voted to damage people's lives even if unintentionally. For what?


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## Guest

rona said:


> Because the EU is an out of control Juggernaut doing harm to countries far and wide


Maybe you mistook EU for Putin or Trump? EU is actually, in real life, trying to do good, but could be better at it, surely. Still it is way way much better than many other unions, which only aim at supporting making profit for the companies they represent. I really doubt you have a single example of this either. You don´t like EU, that is known, but if you want to make it more credible, you´d need a bit more facts to support your opinion.


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## rona

MrsZee said:


> Maybe you mistook EU for Putin or Trump? EU is actually, in real life, trying to do good, but could be better at it, surely.


Then why are so many countries forming small alliances to fight them?

They have no hope of course because the EU is now too powerful.

I have put on several links, but of course none of you will ever have seen any of them


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## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> there have been many lately


OK, if they are genuine Brexit threads, one can avoid them. But what amazes me, and what I know irritated stockwellcat. is the way any thread is fair game to be demoted and debased to the status of yet another totally superfluous Brexit thread. Take, for example, the 'Royal Engagement' thread. Someone (whom I won't name) even brought Brexit into that . . . I believe the offending post was quickly removed but not before several people had read it and thought, 'WTF?'.


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## Arnie83

rona said:


> Because the EU is an out of control Juggernaut doing harm to countries far and wide


It may feel like a lot of people are already ganging up on you for that comment, but I would be interested to learn why you view the EU in that way. Both in terms of the 'out of control juggernaut' and the harm that you say it is doing.

Could you elucidate?


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## Goblin

rona said:


> I have put on several links, but of course none of you will ever have seen any of them


Agreed, Rona has posted links before. Hardly showing it as a out of control juggernaught. Simply a strong player just as you could call the US a strong player.

What has not been explained is how the UK on it's own is going to correct anything/make things better or explain how the UK government, on it's own is any different other than scale.


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## Guest

rona said:


> Then why are so many countries forming small alliances to fight them?
> They have no hope of course because the EU is now too powerful.I have put on several links, but of course none of you will ever have seen any of them


Err, small alliences to fight them? Like current Polish government, who is becoming more and more a totaliatarian state, like Turkey? Hungary and Tsecks don´t like EU either for the same reason. Russia doesn´t either. I doubt North Korea likes us either. Or did you have other nations in mind? Or do you mean those right wing nazi parties, which most countries have like UKIP; our Basic Finns etc?

You don´t need even links, if you know them. Though links I or anyone else have never seen sound interesting. Are they legitimate?


----------



## Arnie83

This is going to sound like pontificating, but the reason the Brexit thread on the other website I frequent has managed >20,000 posts without being closed is that we now tend to concentrate (for the most part) on what is happening now and what will / might happen over the next few years. While not reconciled to it, we've sort of moved on from why people voted the way they did, and how dumb / racist / scared / plain wrong etc they were for doing so!


----------



## Goblin

MrsZee said:


> You don´t need even links, if you know them. Though links I or anyone else have never seen sound interesting. Are they legitimate?


Example: https://www.antillean.org/eu-epa-disadvantages-212/


----------



## Guest

Arnie83 said:


> This is going to sound like pontificating, but the reason the Brexit thread on the other website I frequent has managed >20,000 posts without being closed is that we now tend to concentrate (for the most part) on what is happening now and what will / might happen over the next few years. While not reconciled to it, we've sort of moved on from why people voted the way they did, and how dumb / racist / scared / plain wrong etc they were for doing so!


Had we kept our first Brexit thread open that might have happened here too, as people are people everywhere. Maybe this time? I promise I won´t ask this thread to be closed, even if some one would be calling me an imbesille, who can´t write a single sentence in English, the wicked witch or an animal, which produces milk.


----------



## Guest

Goblin said:


> Example: https://www.antillean.org/eu-epa-disadvantages-212/


Yes, bad EU indeed


----------



## Zaros

Calvine said:


> OK, if they are genuine Brexit threads, one can avoid them. But what amazes me is the way any thread is fair game to be demoted and debased to the status of yet another totally superfluous Brexit thread. *Take, for example, the 'Royal Engagement' thread. *_*I believe the offending post was quickly removed but not before several people had read it and thought, 'WTF?'*_.


:Wideyed...But I thought Harry was marrying Merkel in order to ease the Brexit anxieties and tensions.

And to please his granny of course.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> OK, if they are genuine Brexit threads, one can avoid them. But what amazes me, and what I know irritated stockwellcat. is the way any thread is fair game to be demoted and debased to the status of yet another totally superfluous Brexit thread. Take, for example, the 'Royal Engagement' thread. Someone (whom I won't name) even brought Brexit into that . . . I believe the offending post was quickly removed but not before several people had read it and thought, 'WTF?'.


 That was my thread . I wouldn't have seen it though .


----------



## Guest

Calvine said:


> OK, if they are genuine Brexit threads, one can avoid them. But what amazes me, and what I know irritated stockwellcat. is the way any thread is fair game to be demoted and debased to the status of yet another totally superfluous Brexit thread. Take, for example, the 'Royal Engagement' thread. Someone (whom I won't name) even brought Brexit into that . . . I believe the offending post was quickly removed but not before several people had read it and thought, 'WTF?'.


Why not bring those topics on this thread, if there are links? Would that be a solution? That way no one wouldn´t need to even see the B-word, if they started to have allergic reactions to it.


----------



## MollySmith

Arnie83 said:


> This is going to sound like pontificating, but the reason the Brexit thread on the other website I frequent has managed >20,000 posts without being closed is that we now tend to concentrate (for the most part) on what is happening now and what will / might happen over the next few years. While not reconciled to it, we've sort of moved on from why people voted the way they did, and how dumb / racist / scared / plain wrong etc they were for doing so!


There is hope!


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> This is going to sound like pontificating, but the reason the Brexit thread on the other website I frequent has managed >20,000 posts without being closed is that we now tend to concentrate (for the most part) on what is happening now and what will / might happen over the next few years. While not reconciled to it, we've sort of moved on from why people voted the way they did, and how dumb / racist / scared / plain wrong etc they were for doing so!


However things need context. What were people expecting? Are people actually getting what they voted for? In the majority of cases that's a no. In that case isn't it time we actually admitted that little fact rather than pretend and accept we were sold a package which does not match the advertising? 4% of people not getting what they voted for would mean a failure to provide what the majority of voters voted for and more whould mean those who didn't want to leave are in the majority. Comes back to the old thing.. can you have a mandate when people do not have the necessary information to make an informed choice?


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> Sooo many thread end up as soap boxes that go over and over the same damn subject by the preachers, even if they started about something completely different


Strange isn't it , how some people don't have the wisdom to realise it's counter -productive.

It reminds me of when I first went on -line in the noughties and arguing against chokes, shock collars , etc and later CM ,
I suppose I saw myself as some sort of crusader or warrior princess and swore I would never stop but then I grew up and realised that you cannot force people to listen to you or force them to believe in what you believe in no matter how true or good the cause,
if you flood them with info or berate them or imply they don't care or are cruel or selfish, it just turns them off or ends in long argumentative threads where people insulted each other and even people on your own side get fed up with you and turn against you .


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> Strange isn't it , how some people don't have the wisdom to realise it's counter -productive.
> 
> It reminds me of when I first went on -line in the noughties and arguing against chokes, shock collars , etc and later CM ,
> I suppose I saw myself as some sort of crusader or warrior princess and swore I would never stop but then I grew up and realised that you cannot force people to listen to you or force them to believe in what you believe in no matter how true or good the cause,
> if you flood them with info or berate them or imply they don't care or are cruel or selfish, it just turns them off or ends in long argumentative threads where people insulted each other and even people on your own side get fed up with you and turn against you .


I was told innumerable times that I was cruel, even to Alfie, the happiest, cheekiest dog I've ever known


----------



## Colliebarmy

There will be no genuine 100% Brexit

Either the EU will keep us bound up in red tape and huge costs or HMG will get voted out after a coalition failure and Corbyn will be the next PM and the softies with no regard for the leave vote will convince him to hold a 2nd EU referendum... 

Brexit was never on the cards really

You have all been sold down the river (Rhine)


----------



## Arnie83

Colliebarmy said:


> There will be no genuine 100% Brexit
> 
> Either the EU will keep us bound up in red tape and huge costs or HMG will get voted out after a coalition failure and Corbyn will be the next PM and the softies with no regard for the leave vote will convince him to hold a 2nd EU referendum...
> 
> Brexit was never on the cards really
> 
> You have all been sold down the river (Rhine)


I think the Tories will manage to hold on until we are out of the EU.

But I have to ask, if your scenario became reality, how could anyone - I guess I mean you, in this instance! - imply that a second referendum is somehow wrong, or bad, or undemocratic? Surely democracy is about enacting the will of the people, and if that will changes, democracy demands that the enactment changes.

(In any case, we might vote the same way as 18 months ago - and in my view with a lot more legitimacy since we would have facts at our disposal rather than speculation and clear untruths.)


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> However things need context. What were people expecting? Are people actually getting what they voted for? In the majority of cases that's a no. In that case isn't it time we actually admitted that little fact rather than pretend and accept we were sold a package which does not match the advertising? 4% of people not getting what they voted for would mean a failure to provide what the majority of voters voted for and more whould mean those who didn't want to leave are in the majority. Comes back to the old thing.. can you have a mandate when people do not have the necessary information to make an informed choice?


I sympathise with you point of view. We - and I include myself in feeling I want to - can try to get people to admit they were sold a pup, but to what end? All we're going to do is pee-off a bunch of people on PF. We're not going to force a second referendum based on facts.

As I said above, I don't think we're going to get to a situation where the reversal of Brexit is possible. It is now in the firm grip of the Tory party, and no-one else will get a say. They have defined what they want from it - repeatedly claiming it is what The People voted for - and there will be no risking that by asking the People again.


----------



## Mirandashell

I think a second referendum is a brilliant idea IF they do it just before they sign the decree absolute. Then we will all know what we will actually be getting and can vote from a position of knowledge. 

Won't happen though.


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> All we're going to do is pee-off a bunch of people on PF.


You do that simply by not bowing and agreeing with them. Woe betide asking questions they cannot answer. That's being snarky.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> I think the Tories will manage to hold on until we are out of the EU.
> 
> But I have to ask, if your scenario became reality, how could anyone - I guess I mean you, in this instance! - imply that a second referendum is somehow wrong, or bad, or undemocratic? Surely democracy is about enacting the will of the people, and if that will changes, democracy demands that the enactment changes.
> 
> (In any case, we might vote the same way as 18 months ago - and in my view with a lot more legitimacy since we would have facts at our disposal rather than speculation and clear untruths.)


I think that if the government were honest about the deal we are heading towards a second referendum result would garner a clear majority to revoke article 50 and remain in the EU (assuming that option were available).

Leaving the EU (actually, not just in name) for a government (who don't want to leave anyway) with a slim working majority is too hard to carry off, especially if all that they can rely on for authority is the result of a referendum with only a slim victory. The political will to make brexit happen simply is not there.

If the choice boils down to:

A.). Remain in the EU as before or,

B.). Leave at some technical level but not in any practical terms. Remain in the single market by another name. Remain in the customs union by another name. Continue to submit to all of the four freedoms. Remain unable to strike independent trade deals. Continue to pay towards the EU budget but at a higher level because we lose our rebate. Pay substantial divorce fines on top. Lose our seat at the decision making tables....

.... then option A looks like the obvious choice.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MrsZee said:


> Err, small alliences to fight them? Like current Polish government, who is becoming more and more a totaliatarian state, like Turkey? Hungary and Tsecks don´t like EU either for the same reason. Russia doesn´t either. I doubt North Korea likes us either. Or did you have other nations in mind? Or do you mean those right wing nazi parties, which most countries have like UKIP; our Basic Finns etc?
> 
> You don´t need even links, if you know them. Though links I or anyone else have never seen sound interesting. Are they legitimate?


Polish ultra right that is destroying primeval forests? Choked independence of medias and judges?
Bans gay rights and in vitro?
Sucks to Trump?
Really???"
Great example of what far right does.
Poland is divided, protests everywhere,independent TV just fined 415 000 for showing the protests!!!
If Polish current government think that going out of EU and asking Trump to save then from Russia is the answer. ...
Plus Catholic church becoming a tool of mass control...
Priests telling their folk Almighty wants that party to rule!!!!

Grew example.
Plus would not call country with the same population as Spain - small.

Poland is in a mess.

Spain - another country ruled by ultra right PP - in a mess....seen Guardia Civil beating civilians - women, elder people etc..in Catalonia.

Miracle!!!
@Satori saw the Light!!! Satori!


----------



## Elles

Satori said:


> I think that if the government were honest about the deal we are heading towards a second referendum result would garner a clear majority to revoke article 50 and remain in the EU (assuming that option were available).
> 
> Leaving the EU (actually, not just in name) for a government (who don't want to leave anyway) with a slim working majority is too hard to carry off, especially if all that they can rely on for authority is the result of a referendum with only a slim victory. The political will to make brexit happen simply is not there.
> 
> If the choice boils down to:
> 
> A.). Remain in the EU as before or,
> 
> B.). Leave at some technical level but not in any practical terms. Remain in the single market by another name. Remain in the customs union by another name. Continue to submit to all of the four freedoms. Remain unable to strike independent trade deals. Continue to pay towards the EU budget but at a higher level because we lose our rebate. Pay substantial divorce fines on top. Lose our seat at the decision making tables....
> 
> .... then option A looks like the obvious choice.


Spot on.


----------



## Elles

So how come Satori says the government doesn’t want to leave the Eu, he’s seen the light and it’s a miracle, but when I said it, I’m wrong?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> So how come Satori says the government doesn't want to leave the Eu, he's seen the light and it's a miracle, but when I said it, I'm wrong?


Cos he had  face saying that ..not  face...


----------



## Elles

I see. Well I don’t, but never mind.


----------



## cheekyscrip




----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> I think that _*if*_ the government were honest about the deal we are heading towards a second referendum result would garner a clear majority to revoke article 50 and remain in the EU (assuming that option were available).
> 
> Leaving the EU (actually, not just in name) for a government (who don't want to leave anyway) with a slim working majority is too hard to carry off, especially if all that they can rely on for authority is the result of a referendum with only a slim victory. The political will to make brexit happen simply is not there.
> 
> If the choice boils down to:
> 
> A.). Remain in the EU as before or,
> 
> B.). Leave at some technical level but not in any practical terms. Remain in the single market by another name. Remain in the customs union by another name. Continue to submit to all of the four freedoms. Remain unable to strike independent trade deals. Continue to pay towards the EU budget but at a higher level because we lose our rebate. Pay substantial divorce fines on top. Lose our seat at the decision making tables....
> 
> .... then option A looks like the obvious choice.


I agree, but the devil is in that 'if'.

The govt will not be honest about the deal we are heading for and we will not get a second referendum. The Brexiteers in the Tories have too much control of May. If she steps too far out of line, or allows Hammond to do so, she will be removed and the new PM will be Gove, Boris or Mogg. In each case Brexit would move quickly to a much harder version, with 'no deal' quite possible, and all to the cheers of the chief noise makers and the vast majority of the Press.

If we, the People, got the choice you describe then yes. But we will not get that choice.


----------



## Arnie83

Linked to the above ...

A report from the Rand Corporation reckons the only way we come out ahead is to conclude a comprehensive three-way trade deal between the US, EU and UK, which isn't going to happen.

Otherwise we lose out, even taking into account some mitigation by trade deals with the likes of India and China, should we be able to conclude them.

*http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42315280*

I would expect the comments by the likes of Fox to be that the Rand Corporation underestimate the influence of the UK and our ability to strike free trade deals all over the world. People will then believe whatever they want.


----------



## Goblin

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2200.html for those interested.


----------



## Arnie83

For any who think 'They need us more than we need them' an excerpt from that report ...


The option of leaving the EU with no deal and entering World Trade Organization (WTO) rules would lead to the greatest economic losses for the UK. This would reduce future GDP by around five per cent over ten years, which is a loss of $140 billion.
Under WTO rules, the EU would also lose out economically, but nowhere near the same proportion as the UK - about 0.7 per cent of its overall GDP, which is $97 billion.
Pretty clear who holds the cards in the next round of negotiations, if the Rand analysis is anything to go by.


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> I agree, but the devil is in that 'if'.
> 
> The govt will not be honest about the deal we are heading for and we will not get a second referendum. The Brexiteers in the Tories have too much control of May. If she steps too far out of line, or allows Hammond to do so, she will be removed and the new PM will be Gove, Boris or Mogg. In each case Brexit would move quickly to a much harder version, with 'no deal' quite possible, and all to the cheers of the chief noise makers and the vast majority of the Press.
> 
> If we, the People, got the choice you describe then yes. But we will not get that choice.


Yes, I admit I had to chuckle at the idea of the government being honest. Whatever deal is struck, May will come back with a victory speech about the best deal for the U.K., glorious futures and the just-about-managing romping care-free in the sunlit uplands.

She'll likely be savaged by the media though. The balance was about fair before the referendum. The BBC/Guardian supported remain and the rest of the press supported leave. Nobody will support a bad compromise.

I honestly can't predict what happens next. 52% voted leave and 48% remain. She comes back with a deal that is neither and is worse than either, one that 0% voted for. There will be no referendum but there will be a "meaningful vote in parliament" that the government won't carry because nobody likes the deal.

Just what in hell happens next? It will be too late in to revoke article 50 n'est-ce pas?

So, I think your scenario above is the most likely. May will be thrown under the brexit bus before we are irrevocably b*ggered.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> noughties


EH? Naughties? Or in your nighties? You shock me.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> OK, if they are genuine Brexit threads, one can avoid them. But what amazes me, and what I know irritated stockwellcat. is the way any thread is fair game to be demoted and debased to the status of yet another totally superfluous Brexit thread. Take, for example, the 'Royal Engagement' thread. Someone (whom I won't name) even brought Brexit into that . . . I believe the offending post was quickly removed but not before several people had read it and thought, 'WTF?'.


You wouldn't be talking about this offending post by any chance, would you? (I hope I'm safe to repost it on the brexit thread) It still tickles me

*HaveIGotNewsForYou*‏Verified [email protected]*haveigotnews*  Nov 27

No. 10 releases statement about Prince Harry & Meghan Markle's engagement


----------



## noushka05

Colliebarmy said:


> *You have all been sold down the river (Rhine)[/*QUOTE]
> 
> .


If you'd looked objectively at the evidence you would have seen brexit could only ever end in disaster


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> For any who think 'They need us more than we need them' an excerpt from that report ...
> 
> 
> The option of leaving the EU with no deal and entering World Trade Organization (WTO) rules would lead to the greatest economic losses for the UK. This would reduce future GDP by around five per cent over ten years, which is a loss of $140 billion.
> Under WTO rules, the EU would also lose out economically, but nowhere near the same proportion as the UK - about 0.7 per cent of its overall GDP, which is $97 billion.
> Pretty clear who holds the cards in the next round of negotiations, if the Rand analysis is anything to go by.


(A bit of David Schneider satire on the subject)
_
Hah! Project Fear lied! They said households would be £4000 worse off under Brexit 
whereas the truth is we'll only be £1585 worse off. #*BrexitGoodNews*
_


----------



## Jesthar

Oh glory, I promised myself I wasn't going to post any memes, but lte last few lines of this one cracked my up!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Jesthar said:


> Oh glory, I promised myself I wasn't going to post any memes, but lte last few lines of this one cracked my up!


I promise my next moggy to be called Jacob Rees Mogg.
What a splendid moniker for a cat!!!


----------



## Guest

Yesterday´s editorial from Helsingin Sanomat (a quality newspaper with sources) "Title"

"Savings from Brexit turned out huge costs already"

It stated that the promised savings UK was going to have from Brexit (like that 350 million a week for NHS) has turned to be the opposite CERP- Network (Centre for Economic Policy Research) created a model representing Britain and estimated how the financies would develop.

The result: the insecurity alone has been a burden. UK`s development was number one of GT -countries, now you are 7th. Now Britain is losing 300 million £/ week before you even have left. That is 60 billion By 2018.
So what are the benefits of Brexit? How rich you do have to be to actually say "I´m not interested or lets just go ahead with it." No wonder May& co will try to everything to keep as much excatly the same as possibe. I know I would, unless I had a very personal reason to drive a country to a chaos and poverty.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MrsZee said:


> Yesterday´s editorial from Helsingin Sanomat (a quality newspaper with sources) "Title"
> 
> "Savings from Brexit turned out huge costs already"
> 
> It stated that the promised savings UK was going to have from Brexit (like that 350 million a week for NHS) has turned to be the opposite CERP- Network (Centre for Economic Policy Research) created a model representing Britain and estimated how the financies would develop.
> 
> The result: the insecurity alone has been a burden. UK`s development was number one of GT -countries, now you are 7th. Now Britain is losing 300 million £/ week before you even have left. That is 60 billion By 2018.
> So what are the benefits of Brexit? How rich you do have to be to actually say "I´m not interested or lets just go ahead with it." No wonder May& co will try to everything to keep as much excatly the same as possibe. I know I would, unless I had a very personal reason to drive a country to a chaos and poverty.


Like your own ambition to be the next PM ?
Personal revenge on a school mate you were jealous of, or your Dad's lost business?
Or just desire to in a spotlight?
Plus just plain greed...
Fattening the likes of Murdoch....
I trust Heseltine or Clarke , because they are beyond vying for next step in their career...
They afford to speak the Truth.
I trust Bercow. Man of principles.

Yes, Britain suffers from pound falling, inflation, economic slump.

It will get worse, jobs will be lost, investments are drying up...

All that to have curved cucumbers, straight bananas and replace EU workforce by non EU.

Make Trump win and keep Russia and China, India happy.
More visas with ne trade deals...

We were sold down the river ,not Rhine, but own s*** creek..


----------



## Guest

I really hope you that May could cut down the damage as much as possible, if not even to have another referendum. If those figures are even half true, I think that Brexin would be justified. Damn politicians conning people like this


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> I really hope you that May could cut down the damage as much as possible, if not even to have another referendum. If those figures are even half true, I think that Brexin would be justified. Damn politicians conning people like this


Finally some good news Mrs Zee!. These MPs will go down on the right side of history 

Some of the best reactions I've seen 

*Caroline Lucas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas*  10h10 hours ago

_Parliament erupts In shouts & cheers! Ayes 309, No 305 - thanks to all who campaigned
so hard for parliament to have a meaningful vote on #*Brexit* - we did it!
_
*David Lammy*‏Verified [email protected]*DavidLammy* 10h10 hours ago 

_Parliament has taken back control. The final Brexit deal will have to be approved by Parliament. Hats off to the Tory rebels
who held firm and stuck to their principles. #*EUWithdrawalBill* #*Amendment7*
_

*Jessica Elgot*‏Verified [email protected]*jessicaelgot*  10h10 hours ago

_Labour Mps in the corridors are literally spontaneously busting into laughter_

*Angela Rayner*‏Verified [email protected]*AngelaRayner*  8h8 hours ago

_Parliament tonight taking back control, the defeat for the government on #*Amendment7* was the fault 
of the PM who just wouldn't listen and her dismissive, arrogant attitude backfired in dramatic style.
Hats off to the Tory MPs who stuck with their principles despite severe pressure_

*Keir Starmer*‏Verified [email protected]*Keir_Starmer*  10h10 hours ago

_Victory on Grieve amendment! Labour overwhelmingly backed vote & with courageous Tories 
voting with us, parliament now votes on Brexit terms_


----------



## noushka05

Steve Bell on Theresa May's defeat










Just spotted this as well:Hilarious

.


----------



## noushka05

The right wing rags are one of the greatest threats to our democracy.


*Keir Starmer*‏Verified [email protected]*Keir_Starmer*  7h7 hours ago

_When judges uphold the law, they are branded enemies of the people. When MPs uphold democracy, they are branded traitors.
Never has it been more important to reassert our values.

_


----------



## cheekyscrip

Tell me: How Brexit could be a success in a country that is paralyzed by an inch of snow?



In EU planes fly, roads are passable, people go to work, children go to school.

You must wonder how they do it?

There is a secret, well kept, but I will reveal it to my British government and you all:













Snowploughs and shovels.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> *Tell me: How Brexit could be a success in a country that is paralyzed by an inch of snow?*
> 
> In EU planes fly, roads are passable, people go to work, children go to school.
> 
> You must wonder how they do it?
> 
> There is a secret, well kept, but I will reveal it to my British government and you all:
> 
> Snowploughs and shovels.


:HilariousYou've cracked me up with this Cheeky!


----------



## noushka05

Brilliant from Chunky on yesterdays good news plus the repulsive backlash of the hard right.
_
Theresa May defeated. Donald Trump defeated. Same day. Two losers together.
_


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> The right wing rags are one of the greatest threats to our democracy.
> 
> 
> *Keir Starmer*‏Verified [email protected]*Keir_Starmer*  7h7 hours ago
> 
> _When judges uphold the law, they are branded enemies of the people. When MPs uphold democracy, they are branded traitors.
> Never has it been more important to reassert our values.
> 
> _


Dominic Grieve is a 'self-consumed malcontent'?


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Dominic Grieve is a 'self-consumed malcontent'?


What does that even mean?


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> What does that even mean?


It means the Daily Mail are really really cross that our sovereign Parliament is going to get a vote on the final deal in case they don't like it.

The amendment they really wanted yesterday was that Paul Dacre should have the final say on all matter Brexit.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> It means the Daily Mail are really really cross that our sovereign Parliament is going to get a vote on the final deal in case they don't like it.
> 
> The amendment they really wanted yesterday was that Paul Dacre should have the final say on all matter Brexit.


Someone else has translated what they mean.


----------



## noushka05

Bad day all round for Farage who flew over to the USA to endorse this kiddie fiddling white supremacist. The decent people of Alabama stuck two fingers up at these morons yesterday










Wow l& ook at this from Ed Miliband to Farage:Jawdrop Take that you racist scumbag!

*Nigel Farage*‏Verified [email protected]*Nigel_Farage* 14h14 hours ago

_My contempt for career politicians knows no bounds_.

*Ed Miliband*‏Verified [email protected]*Ed_Miliband*  11h11 hours ago

Ed Miliband Retweeted Nigel Farage

_And mine for people who travel thousands of miles to endorse a groper of young girls 
who also happens to be a racist homophobe. 
Time for a period of silence.
_

.....................................................


----------



## noushka05

Well said Guy.

*Guy Verhofstadt*‏Verified [email protected]*guyverhofstadt* 13h13 hours ago

_British Parliament takes back control. European and British Parliament together will decide on the final agreement.
Interests of the citizens will prevail over narrow party politics.
A good day for democracy
_


----------



## Jesthar

So, let me get this straight.

We have months of flag waving campaigning on how Britain needs to take back control from the evil EU and restore the sovreignty of the British Parliament in all things political as the British Parliament are the only ones who should have a say in British political decisions. British MPs voting on British matters.

This results in a referendum vote that (rightly or wrongly, lets not argue that one here) eventually ends off kicking off a process supposed to do that. The flag waving campaigners all cheer.

_Then _the British Parliament decides it wants to have the final say on the deal for taking back control. To take control of the taking control, so to speak - British MPs voting on British matters. And this, somewhow, causes a significant number of the flag wavers to throw their toys out the pram _because _British MPs want to have a vote on British matters.

I feel like I've wandered into a bizarre pantomime written by Spike Milligan and Alan Bennett...


----------



## Boxerluver30

This is seriously getting ridiculous now, wasn't a big part of the leave campaign saying about giving British parliament back control? And now that they are doing exactly that people are throwing hissy fits and stamping their feet about it. I mean come on, its getting silly now . I don't usually follow any brexit news however I saw it on news last night and was thinking what a joke this has all become. Its like something you'd see in a soap, only a lot more serious


----------



## Elles

I think when people talked about taking back control they meant in part control of the money. At the moment British taxpayers give a lot of money to the Eu bureaucrats who pay themselves a decent salary and pension and work from lovely modern buildings with their own shopping malls etc. The Eu bureaucrats then decide who gets some of it, including vanity projects and universities.

Of course your average person is going to wonder why, when they’re struggling themselves and can’t get an appointment with a gp. Unfortunately the Eu and the big business and politicians who benefit from it are very powerful and like the Hotel California, you can never leave. Some remain voters were too afraid to try to leave, but rather buried their heads in the safe sand, ignored any debate and voted remain like a bunch of brainwashed sheep, being herded into the Eu abattoir. They then accused Eusceptics of being brainwashed by the press and uninformed amongst other far worse accusations. To them I say look in the mirror, if you’re going to cast aspersions. 

Remainers aren’t giving up without a fight and although the referendum may have come down on the leave side, the British public aren’t in Parliament and Westminster, the majority of politicians are remainers and when push comes to shove, they are the ones in control, not us. They aren’t ‘taking back control’ they’re voting against it. They’re voting for the Eu to maintain control, even to take more than they were already, and laughing about it, as though it’s a big joke and some kind of competition. Instead of coming together and working for the best possible outcome for all involved, they’re infighting and sabotaging something very few of them wanted in the first place, including our own prime minister. They want to stay as members of the Eu and hope that their shenanigans will enable it.

Gove is pretty much the only main politician who genuinely wanted Brexit. Boris didn’t care either way, he just wanted to be pm, Rees-Mogg is a back bencher that most look on as a bit of a joke.

We aren’t leaving imo, we never were.


----------



## Mirandashell

> and voted remain like a bunch of brainwashed sheep, being herded into the Eu abattoir.


And some say remainers are rude.....


----------



## shadowmare

Elles said:


> I think when people talked about taking back control they meant in part control of the money. At the moment British taxpayers give a lot of money to the Eu bureaucrats who pay themselves a decent salary and pension and work from *lovely modern buildings with their own shopping malls* etc. The Eu bureaucrats then decide who gets some of it, including vanity projects and universities.
> 
> Of course your average person is going to wonder why, when they're struggling themselves and can't get an appointment with a gp. Unfortunately the Eu and the big business and politicians who benefit from it are very powerful and like the Hotel California, you can never leave. Some remain voters were too afraid to try to leave, but rather buried their heads in the safe sand, ignored any debate and voted remain like a bunch of brainwashed sheep, being herded into the Eu abattoir. They then accused Eusceptics of being brainwashed by the press and uninformed amongst other far worse accusations. To them I say look in the mirror, if you're going to cast aspersions.
> 
> Remainers aren't giving up without a fight and although the referendum may have come down on the leave side, the British public aren't in Parliament and Westminster, the majority of politicians are remainers and when push comes to shove, they are the ones in control, not us. They aren't 'taking back control' they're voting against it. They're voting for the Eu to maintain control, even to take more than they were already, and laughing about it, as though it's a big joke and some kind of competition. Instead of coming together and working for the best possible outcome for all involved, they're infighting and sabotaging something very few of them wanted in the first place, including our own prime minister. They want to stay as members of the Eu and hope that their shenanigans will enable it.
> 
> Gove is pretty much the only main politician who genuinely wanted Brexit. Boris didn't care either way, he just wanted to be pm, Rees-Mogg is a back bencher that most look on as a bit of a joke.
> 
> We aren't leaving imo, we never were.


I need to have a serious chat with my father for not taking me to any of these lovely malls in the 2 years of us living in Brussels!
Just a side note... you know that there's British people working in those lovely buildings and earning those pensions and wages.... Farage being one of them. Speaking of - has he given in his leaving notice yet?


----------



## Mirandashell

> Speaking of - has he given in his leaving notice yet?


No, he's in America rallying support for a racist homophobic child molester. Who happens to be a friend of Donald Trump.


----------



## Elles

Mirandashell said:


> And some say remainers are rude.....


I voted remain. 

The brainwashed sheep (sheeples and lemmings) was said about leave voters more than once.

There was a video from the Leave side before the referendum, showing the exclusive mall and talking about the pay and conditions. Most remainers probably didn't watch it.

Yup, Nigel Farage MEP. Only one MEP turned up fewer times than he did and that was a disabled Irish MEP who was in hospital.


----------



## Mirandashell

Then both sides are wrong. Rude is rude. And I'm not saying anything else cos I don't want to get into the eternal argument.


----------



## shadowmare

Elles said:


> I voted remain.
> 
> The brainwashed sheep (sheeples and lemmings) was said about leave voters more than once.
> 
> There was a video from the Leave side before the referendum, showing the exclusive mall and talking about the pay and conditions. Most remainers probably didn't watch it.
> 
> Yup, Nigel Farage MEP. Only one MEP turned up fewer times than he did and that was a disabled Irish MEP who was in hospital.


Genuine question - any links to the video? I just tried using google as I am genuinely curious where this secret shopping mall is... but seems like not even dailyfail or the sun have bragged about this. Otherwise, I'll have to put that story into the pile of baseless nonsense together with the NHS busses...


----------



## Elles

Ooh gawd, I’ll see if I can find it. It was main leave video. Very polished.


----------



## shadowmare

Whenever I think of Farage, I always end up thinking of other British people who will be losing their jobs there. Wander how many of them will try to get different jobs in Europe and how many will be relocating back to UK. I’m gussing many will try to relocate somewhere around London, which means a lot of children will be going to local schools and nurseries. It’s a shame that some will have to move to a country that they never lived in before and adapt tototally different school curriculum and change their carrier paths. UK not being part of EU will probably mean a change of university plans for many pupils to sit their exams in European schools in the next few years. I just feel lucky now that I finished school a decade ago before this mess!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Mirandashell said:


> And some say remainers are rude.....


Shhhh... maybe Mod Police hasn't spotted it yet?

We love sheep, we love lemmings.

They are all cute, clever animals, we are just complementing each other...

Do not close the shop!!!


----------



## Elles




----------



## Elles

Shopping at about 10 - 12 minutes in. If people want to understand a little about why some leave voters voted the way they did, they should watch the whole film.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Shopping at about 10 - 12 minutes in. If people want to understand a little about why some leave voters voted the way they did, they should watch the whole film.


Then as I suspected they were duped into voting leave by far right propaganda. That movie was made by climate change denying propagandist, Martin Durkin. The same Martin Durkin who tried to fool people with his climate change propaganda movie -The Great global warming swindle.https://www.desmog.uk/2015/08/11/revealed-inside-story-great-global-warming-swindle.

Brexit the movie features that fruit cake James Delingpole & another high profile climate denier Matt Ridley, the movie was substantially funded by Arron flippin Banks. Good grief Elle's.

.









The overlap between Eurosceptics & climate sceptics is well known. Hence why environmentalist voted remain.


----------



## Elles

It doesn't take away from the fact that there is some truth in it and that it covers a lot of the reasons *some* people voted leave, outside of the 'immigration, racism' type of thing. A lot of what it covers is what people suspect of the Eu without ever seeing it. There is a natural and justified mistrust of bureaucrats and politicians and the Eu is full of them.

Why would someone trust Juncker and Barnier, but not Theresa May, or Boris Johnson? And why have 4 untrustworthy politicians seeing to business when two will suffice?

The Eu was supposed to be a trading bloc not the huge political, juggernaut, as Rona says, it's become and is becoming. Brits tried to put the brakes on, but giggling morons in Westminster have sabotaged the brake pipes.

I really wouldn't mind, but the cheering, back patting and laughter over something supposedly so important, is just downright depressing.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> It doesn't take away from the fact that there is some truth in it and that it covers a lot of the reasons *some* people voted leave, outside of the 'immigration, racism' type of thing. A lot of what it covers is what people suspect of the Eu without ever seeing it. There is a natural and justified mistrust of bureaucrats and politicians and the Eu is full of them.


Funny how in other threads everybody denies being influenced by things like your link as it's content has been widely debunked and proven false.



> I really wouldn't mind, but the cheering, back patting and laughter over something supposedly so important, is just downright depressing.


Parliament getting a say being celebrated is depressing? So much for democracy.


----------



## Elles

Do you deliberately misinterpret posts and put your own slant on them? I cant think of any of my posts where you haven't done it.

Parliament getting a say being celebrated? You actually believe that?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-42343785/the-moment-defeat-on-brexit-vote-was-announced

They were celebrating the result, not being given a vote.


----------



## rona

I'm proud that UK parliament is now working as it should. The no vote enabled this


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I think when people talked about taking back control they meant in part control of the money. At the moment British taxpayers give a lot of money to the Eu bureaucrats who pay themselves a decent salary and pension and work from lovely modern buildings *with their own shopping malls *etc. The Eu bureaucrats then decide who gets some of it, including vanity projects and universities.
> 
> Of course your average person is going to wonder why, when they're struggling themselves and can't get an appointment with a gp. Unfortunately the Eu and the big business and politicians who benefit from it are very powerful and like the Hotel California, you can never leave. Some remain voters were too afraid to try to leave, but rather buried their heads in the safe sand, ignored any debate and voted remain like a bunch of brainwashed sheep, being herded into the Eu abattoir. They then accused Eusceptics of being brainwashed by the press and uninformed amongst other far worse accusations. To them I say look in the mirror, if you're going to cast aspersions.
> 
> Remainers aren't giving up without a fight and although the referendum may have come down on the leave side, the British public aren't in Parliament and Westminster, the majority of politicians are remainers and when push comes to shove, they are the ones in control, not us. They aren't 'taking back control' they're voting against it. They're voting for the Eu to maintain control, even to take more than they were already, and laughing about it, as though it's a big joke and some kind of competition. Instead of coming together and working for the best possible outcome for all involved, they're infighting and sabotaging something very few of them wanted in the first place, including our own prime minister. They want to stay as members of the Eu and hope that their shenanigans will enable it.
> 
> Gove is pretty much the only main politician who genuinely wanted Brexit. Boris didn't care either way, he just wanted to be pm, Rees-Mogg is a back bencher that most look on as a bit of a joke.
> 
> We aren't leaving imo, we never were.


I hadn't heard anything about this before (which I have to admit makes me wonder how many average leave voters would have been influenced by it) and I've googled it and can find very little about it (which is also a little odd if it is some sort of scandal, don't you think?).

There was something in Der Spiegel in 2009 about the building of the EU offices, at the bottom of which is a shopping mall.

But what is the accusation supposed to be? Do the MEP's get all the stuff in the mall for free? Or is it just a commercial shopping mall? If the latter, then the rental of the property by the vendors would bring money into the EU coffers that would then reduce the amount its members have to pay. So it would be a good thing wouldn't it?

Also, the building which houses the mall and so many EU bureaucrats was quoted as costing up to a billion euro, which is a lot of money. But it occurs to me that the Tories recently spent 1.5 billion pounds of our money (1.7 billion euro at today's exchange rate) bribing the DUP to keep them in power. Maybe we should consider the beam in the UK eye as we accuse the EU of having a mote in theirs.

And that's before we consider MPs who build duck houses & clean moats with public money.

Finally, there are about 45,000 'bureaucrats' working in the EU, while the UK has 420,000 civil servants. When we leave the EU and have to do the work here that is currently carried out by the 35 EU agencies, that number will, of course, rise.

I suspect that the wasteful excesses of the EU gravy train are no more different from those of our own than their much-vaunted 'corruption' is any worse than our own. But repetition often confers the appearance of truth, which is why charlatan politicians and others of their ilk use the ploy so frequently.

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/figures/administration_en

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan...rsonnel/bulletins/civilservicestatistics/2017


----------



## Guest

Jesthar said:


> So, let me get this straight.
> 
> We have months of flag waving campaigning on how Britain needs to take back control from the evil EU and restore the sovreignty of the British Parliament in all things political as the British Parliament are the only ones who should have a say in British political decisions. British MPs voting on British matters.
> 
> This results in a referendum vote that (rightly or wrongly, lets not argue that one here) eventually ends off kicking off a process supposed to do that. The flag waving campaigners all cheer.
> 
> _Then _the British Parliament decides it wants to have the final say on the deal for taking back control. To take control of the taking control, so to speak - British MPs voting on British matters. And this, somewhow, causes a significant number of the flag wavers to throw their toys out the pram _because _British MPs want to have a vote on British matters.
> 
> I feel like I've wandered into a bizarre pantomime written by Spike Milligan and Alan Bennett...


That resembles already a good comedy done By Marx brothers. Well said.



Elles said:


> Yup, Nigel Farage MEP. Only one MEP turned up fewer times than he did and that was a disabled Irish MEP who was in hospital.


That is the funny part of this, isn´t it? Why didn´t he try to imrove EU instead of just cashing in the pay check? What does that tell about him?



Elles said:


> Shopping at about 10 - 12 minutes in. If people want to understand a little about why some leave voters voted the way they did, they should watch the whole film.


These propaganda films can be poisonous, as they do affect people, even when we think they don´t. If this was the source of information for the leavers, no wonder they won. It is always good to understand why so many people thought all bad comes from EU and Britain had no say about it´s own matters.


----------



## shadowmare

I tried watching the bit between 10th and 12th minute of the film to see the mall but there was nothing about it. I tried skipping through a few different bits, but couldn't find it. Sorry, but I haven't got the guts to watch it. The narration of the film, especially when the guy was talking about the early days of Britain and how glorious and prosperous it was together with the black and white pictures, reminded me too much of history classes and watching old movies about Stalin's Russia *shudder* I wonder if Farage's dreams are something similar to good ol uncle Stalin's movies :Wtf I bet he's expecting a March 2019 welcome like in 1:30 minute of the film here ompus


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## Elles

0:12:20 minutes in. My bad. I should’ve looked properly, it’s just over 12 minutes in, not just under.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> I'm proud that UK parliament is now working as it should. The no vote enabled this


It was remain MPs who saved the day Rona, not brexiteers. Ironic really that it was only remain MPs who voted to ensure the sovereignty of Parliament

If my MP had voted with the government on this he would NEVER get my vote again!








 *Gina Miller*‏@*thatginamiller* Dec 13

_
#*Parliamentary* sovereignty wins the day! Well done to the 309 and Dominic Grieve - reason wins today. Let it become the norm for everyday. Country before party_

High praise coming in from many in on the opposition benches for the tory rebels too.

Here's Labours David Lammy.








 *David Lammy*‏Verified [email protected]*DavidLammy* Dec 13


They certainly should be. Country over party and do not underestimate the bravery this took.


----------



## noushka05

For anyone interested in facts here's a video on the realities of a hard brexit.

*Hard Brexit fails on its own terms:
*


----------



## noushka05

._Xmas comes early. Govt defeat on Amendment 7 means Brexit is now in hands of Parliament, not May & Davis

So pour yourself a drink everyone 
_


----------



## noushka05

I don't know who made this but its very good.


----------



## Elles

Yeah, it was to placate the minions like I said before. The men in dark suits still haven’t got over the result. If the government thought there was any chance of leave winning we wouldn’t have had a vote. The powers that be want to stay in the Eu and thought giving the British people a vote on it would shut us up. 

‘A further referendum to restore the electorate’s faith’ ‘it’s not too late to stop brexit’ lol

I see. So whoever it is wants another consultive referendum and hope it goes their way next time. Should we apply the 65% rule, so only reject the deal if over 65% of voters reject it, otherwise carry on as we are and Brexit?

Whoever the bob geldof lookalike is, his videos have been linked here a few times. He’s just a ranting YouTuber imo.

#wearenotleaving


----------



## Goblin

People power.. shut us up. Leave voters have been trying to shut up over 50% of the population since the referendum. Not by providing anvantages to leaving, simply by saying "we won". Too bad there wasn't a mandate for "hard brexit" or "soft brexit" isn't it. Simple things due to the fact there was no definition of "leave". So, when information is available to make an informed choice you are against it. Does people power exists only for the ill informed? Are you really that scared of people making an informed choice?

Oh no matter who "wins", although this whole debacle has been a loss for everyone, the other "side" will continue for years. Would hope nobody condones the continuation of lies although it seems to be the case that people are all to happy being lied to if it matches what they want.


----------



## Elles

“Leave voters ... shut up over 50% etc”

Have they? They haven’t been very successful then. :Hilarious Tbh I’m not taking much notice, but I think it’s the leave voters, not the remain voters who have given up talking about it. They probably had a severe headache from all the :Banghead

I’ve already said more than once, let’s have another referendum, bring it on. Why would I be worried about it? If they give the vote to our representatives in Westminster, it would be overwhelmingly in favour of staying in imho. I’m not so sure about the public.

No one is ‘winning’, because of the debacle at Westminster and number 10. No, I take that back, if it’s a fight and anyone is winning, it’s Juncker and Barnier.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> No one is 'winning', because of the debacle at Westminster and number 10. No, I take that back, if it's a fight and anyone is winning, it's Juncker and Barnier.


Nobody wins. EU loses, UK loses. Juncker and Barnier have also made that clear. All because parliament representation was bypassed for internal party politics. Because lies are condoned and supported if it matches prejudice. Far beyond brexit, however it goes, that is worrying problem for the future.


----------



## Elles

The Eu are doing fine. They’re still getting U.K. money and they’re able to push through projects and bills that the U.K. tried to block. 

#betteroffwithoutus
#wearenotleaving


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> People power.. shut us up. Leave voters have been trying to shut up over 50% of the population since the referendum.


You're joking! Its the Remainers who are the ones going on and being so abusive to Leavers that they shut up I amazed they don't make the Leavers walk round ringing a bell saying Unclean

ETA and getting abuse from young people for being old too as their fault Leave won.


----------



## Elles

If people are so concerned and think Brexit is an absolute disaster, why didn’t they vote Lib Dem in the last election? Everyone knows Jeremy wanted to leave the Eu and that Theresa said Brexit means Brexit. So if you don’t agree with Brexit, why didn’t you vote Lib Dem, if you didn’t?


----------



## Elles

The fickle youth had their chance to have a say at the last GE, many of them sang for Jeremy Corbyn (ironically an old geezer who did nothing to help the remain campaign) and voted Labour.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> If people are so concerned and think Brexit is an absolute disaster, why didn't they vote Lib Dem in the last election? Everyone knows Jeremy wanted to leave the Eu and that Theresa said Brexit means Brexit. So if you don't agree with Brexit, why didn't you vote Lib Dem, if you didn't?


I suspect it is because a General Election is not a single issue event, and the majority of people have never really been that bothered about Europe. For most it is the economy, taxes, pensions & so on.

It was only the fanatics who ensured the Brexit referendum happened, and Cameron gave in to them for party political reasons. For most people Europe was very far from the top of their list - hence when they voted they largely didn't appreciate the details of the EU, having learned what little they thought they knew from the press banging on about straight bananas, gravy trains and corruption.

Once they had voted, most went back to not really caring.


----------



## Arnie83

Incidentally:

"There is a proper role for referendums in constitutional change, but only if done properly. If it is not done properly, it can be a dangerous tool.

"Referendums should be held when the electorate are in the best possible position to make a judgment. They should be held when people can view all the arguments for and against and when those arguments have been rigorously tested. *In short, referendums should be held when people know exactly what they are getting*.

"*We should not ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper and tell them to trust us to fill in the details afterwards. For referendums to be fair and compatible with our parliamentary process, we need the electors to be as well informed as possible and to know exactly what they are voting for.* Referendums need to be treated as an addition to the parliamentary process, not as a substitute for it."

*David Davis* November 2002


----------



## Goblin

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...turgeon-independence-bid-latest-a7633131.html

Statement at 33 seconds in the video.


----------



## Elles

Yup and a referendum to leave the Eu should have been held when we had a government that were confident they could see it through and knew exactly what they were getting into, bar unforeseeable events and regardless of which way the vote went. Instead we had Cameron hadn’t got a clue what to do and turned tail as soon as the vote was in. 

One would reasonably expect a government to ask the people only when they knew what to do with the answer.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> One would reasonably expect a government to ask the people only when they knew what to do with the answer.


Nobody I know would dispute that statement. Simply having a definition of "leave" would have helped.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> It was only the fanatics who ensured the Brexit referendum happened, and Cameron gave in to them for party political reasons. For most people Europe was very far from the top of their list - hence when they voted they largely didn't appreciate the details of the EU, having learned what little they thought they knew from the press banging on about straight bananas, gravy trains and corruption.
> Once they had voted, most went back to not really caring.


This is basically why the original 600 page thread was closed. Same old , same old .
You know , you forgot to add the word Leavers to your post cos as sure as hell every single remainer has a uni degree in Eu matters and and cares so much about everything single thing in the universe.

ETA A referendum was Camerons election promise that he fullfilled , yes I bet the grandees did put pressure on him but if you make promises at an election you should stick to them .


----------



## Elles

I don’t have time to sit through an advert and watch a video atm, but given recent budget news from Scotland, if they did get another referendum, I wouldn’t like to call it. I don’t think the Scots will vote for independence atm, is Nicola Sturgeon asking for the referendum again?


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> Yup and a referendum to leave the Eu should have been held when we had a government that were confident they could see it through and knew exactly what they were getting into, bar unforeseeable events and regardless of which way the vote went. Instead we had Cameron hadn't got a clue what to do and turned tail as soon as the vote was in.
> 
> One would reasonably expect a government to ask the people only when they knew what to do with the answer.


Also it wasn't Theresa's fault that her boss was an idiot. Poor woman is getting blamed for something not of her making

I'd like to see anyone else do a better job in the time span she has had to work with


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> Also it wasn't Theresa's fault that her boss was an idiot. Poor woman is getting blamed for something not of her making


I agree but then leaving the EU could never match what many people actually voted for.


----------



## rona

Arnie83 said:


> Once they had voted, most went back to not really caring.


Or they are quietly watching and not running off at the mouth before they know what's happening


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Yup and a referendum to leave the Eu should have been held when we had a government that were confident they could see it through and knew exactly what they were getting into, bar unforeseeable events and regardless of which way the vote went. Instead we had Cameron hadn't got a clue what to do and turned tail as soon as the vote was in.
> 
> One would reasonably expect a government to ask the people only when they knew what to do with the answer.


Agreed.

(You're not too fond of the 'Reply' button, are you! )


----------



## Elles

Lol, it’s just that most posts are too long to quote. I keep meaning to put @nameof but memory like a sieve and I’m on my way to do the horses so trying to be quick, while I’m waiting for my friend who’s car’s broken down and needs a lift. 

Always rushing is me. :Writing


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> This is basically why the original 600 page thread was closed. Same old , same old .
> You know , you forgot to add the word Leavers to your post cos as sure as hell every single remainer has a uni degree in Eu matters and and cares so much about everything single thing in the universe.
> 
> ETA A referendum was Camerons election promise that he fullfilled , yes I bet the grandees did put pressure on him but if you make promises at an election you should stick to them .


I wasn't talking about most _Leavers_ (let alone *all* Leavers as you seem to assume for some reason); I was talking about most _voters_. A lot of Remainers, I'm sure, didn't understand the first word about the workings of the EU and voted the way they did for that simple reason: the govt are recommending Remain, so I'll trust them. Or just 'better not to rock the boat'. I understood more than most because I researched it more than most, but, for example, I didn't know what passporting was.

I hope that clarifies things for you, but for future reference I would never make a comment that describes ALL leavers or ALL remainers. So if what I say doesn't apply specifically to you, please don't take it personally.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Also it wasn't Theresa's fault that her boss was an idiot. Poor woman is getting blamed for something not of her making
> 
> I'd like to see anyone else do a better job in the time span she has had to work with


.. or with her Cabinet fighting like cats in a sack.

But if it had been me Pompus) I wouldn't have triggered A50 until I'd sorted things out so that the time span wasn't as tight as she made it. If we'd gone to the EU negotiators with a clear and detailed plan / argument, things wouldn't have taken as long as they have.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> Or they are quietly watching and not running off at the mouth before they know what's happening


Possible for some, I suppose, but many of the members of the great British public I see being interviewed on the street seem to be asking what all the fuss is about and 'why haven't we left yet?' They don't give me the impression they've been watching events all that closely.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I wasn't talking about most _Leavers_ (let alone *all* Leavers as you seem to assume for some reason); I was talking about most _voters_. A lot of Remainers, I'm sure, didn't understand the first word about the workings of the EU and voted the way they did for that simple reason: the govt are recommending Remain, so I'll trust them. Or just 'better not to rock the boat'. I understood more than most because I researched it more than most, but, for example, I didn't know what passporting was.
> 
> I hope that clarifies things for you, but for future reference I would never make a comment that describes ALL leavers or ALL remainers. So if what I say doesn't apply specifically to you, please don't take it personally.


I take it personally for every reasonable person who voted leave of which there are many.



> Once they had voted, most went back to not really caring.


Does Goblin et al know many remainers don't really care because they seem to think if there's not another referendum soon there will be an uprising .


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I take it personally for every reasonable person who voted leave of which there are many.


It really is moot since the vote has been voted, but your contention is that I am somehow offending all the reasonable people who voted leave (which in itself ignores that I made clear the same applied to those who voted remain, including myself) by saying they "didn't appreciate the details of the EU".

So they understood passporting? They knew how the processes of the Council, the Commission and the European Parliament work? They were aware of the facts behind the qualification of the annual accounts? They knew what the 35 EU agencies do and considered whether we should leave all of those before putting their X on the paper? What was the reasonable Leave voter's solution, I wonder, to the problem of the Irish border and the effects of Brexit on the Good Friday Agreement? They knew how big the EU budget was, and compared to the UK's? They knew the numbers and roles of 'those bureaucrats in Brussels'?

My post didn't attack people for voting Leave - which was why it didn't refer to 'Leavers', as you noted, and called an omission. I simply said that most people "didn't appreciate the details".

How many people, I wonder, would still struggle with some of the matters I mentioned above? Edit: In fact I'll ask you a straight question; If we asked 100 people those questions - leavers or remainers - how many do you think would get them all right?

I stick by my comment 100%, and I apologise for offending you, albeit vicariously, and I apologise to any Remain voter who feels similarly offended because I include them.



kimthecat said:


> Does Goblin et al know many remainers don't really care because they seem to think if there's not another referendum soon there will be an uprising .


I suggest you ask Goblin, but I think any sort of 'uprising' is unlikely. Though I can imagine Farage illogically calling for civil disorder should the People change their mind and be allowed to do so.


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> I suggest you ask Goblin, but I think any sort of 'uprising' is unlikely. Though I can imagine Farage illogically calling for civil disorder should the People change their mind and be allowed to do so.


Only people I have I've seen pushing for uprisings are leavers protesting what will happen if they do not get their way. Who cares about democracy, anyone not agreeing is a traitor, be they judges or MP's. How dare parliament actually be allowed to have a final say.

Forget uniting the country by educating. Education like listing advantages of leaving for example.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Goblin said:


> Only people I have I've seen pushing for uprisings are leavers protesting what will happen if they do not get their way. Who cares about democracy, anyone not agreeing is a traitor, be they judges or MP's.


Or WW2 veteran, my father was told he was a traitor because he would have voted remain had been well enough to vote that day.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> My post didn't attack people for voting Leave - which was why it didn't refer to 'Leavers', as you noted, and called an omission. I simply said that most people "didn't appreciate the details".
> 
> How many people, I wonder, would still struggle with some of the matters I mentioned above? Edit: In fact I'll ask you a straight question; If we asked 100 people those questions - leavers or remainers - how many do you think would get them all right?
> 
> I stick by my comment 100%, and I apologise for offending you, albeit vicariously, and I apologise to any Remain voter who feels similarly offended because I include them.


Thank you , I don't think I read the post properly .


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Also it wasn't Theresa's fault that her boss was an idiot. Poor woman is getting blamed for something not of her making
> 
> I'd like to see anyone else do a better job in the time span she has had to work with


It could be argued why she didn't trigger Article 50 as soon as she became PM, then triggering it when there was no thought for the Irish Border etc. etc. She also unilaterally decided to leave the SM and CU. This was never asked on the referendum paper.

Not forgetting the unnecessary General Election at considerable cost which backfired forcing another expense of having to prop up the DUP for their support.

And she has the bloody cheek to say there's no magic money tree to give nurses etc. a pay rise having had pay virtually frozen for the past 7 years!!!

While I agree others would probably be no better they couldn't be any worse.

I'll be celebrating big style when she's forced to quit.


----------



## Guest

Looks like UK has a chance now dealing with Brexit now in a way that benefits the country, not just the few rich, right wing politicians/ business people. Democracy will win in the, despite Putins&co attempts to destroy it. Maybe you will even get a second chance to vote once you have more information about the actual affects of Brexit, like @Elles said.

To me it seems that it has been a really long time I read something positive about British politics. Well done Parliament!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> I'll be celebrating big style when she's forced to quit.


But who would you want to take her place?
Boris ? Rees Mogg ? Leadsom? Gove. They're a motley crew, 

People complained last year that TM wasn't an "elected "PM but now she is .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> But who would you want to take her place?
> Boris ? Rees Mogg ? Leadsom? Gove. They're a motley crew,
> 
> People complained last year that TM wasn't an "elected "PM but now she is .


But not quite as under the current first past the post rules she failed to win a majority, hence why she had to pay the DUP a substantial amount for their support on top of what was spent on an unnecessary General Election she earlier promised not to hold.

May is no better than Leadsom, Mogg, Gove and Johnson in my view. They're all as vile as each other.


----------



## Arnie83

Jacob Rees-Mogg says that following the rules of the single market and customs union during the transition period, without having a say over them - because we've left the EU - is unacceptable.

Does anyone know if he has a sensible alternative to suggest?

He seems to be someone who takes personal pride in the fact that Wellington defeated Napoleon and is more concerned about a sort of national ego than about the welfare of people who actually live here. Or maybe I'm just being unfair


----------



## Mirandashell

No you're not. He has absolutely no idea how most of us live. So he doesn't care.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> But not quite as under the current first past the post rules she failed to win a majority, hence why she had to pay the DUP a substantial amount for their support.
> 
> May is no better than Leadsom, Mogg, Gove and Johnson in my view. They're all as vile as each other.


So who's left out of the Tory party that you fancy for the job who's capable or it is a question of Dip Dip , do sh*t , you are not it .?


----------



## Arnie83

Mirandashell said:


> No you're not. He has absolutely no idea how most of us live. So he doesn't care.


I do try to give politicians the benefit of the doubt, but he really does seem to think that the principle of the thing far outweighs the well-being of little people, some - or a lot; *shrug* - of whom must suffer for the greater good of England (and its subordinate satellites).


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> he really does seem to think that the principle of the thing far outweighs the well-being of little people


Yes, I too admire the clarity of his vision.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> So who's left out of the Tory party that you fancy for the job who's capable or it is a question of Dip Dip , do sh*t , you are not it .?


Seeing the bast**ds have taken over the Tory party, excuse the language but John Major called them that when they tried to oust him in the '90s, any one of the 11 who voted against the far right power grab could take over for me.

Better still, not a Conservative Government at all. They got the UK into this mess in the first place.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> Seeing the bast**ds have taken over the Tory party, excuse the language but John Major called them that when they tried to oust him in the '90s, any one of the 11 who voted against the far right power grab could take over for me.
> 
> Better still, not a Conservative Government at all. They got the UK into this mess in the first place.


What mess?


----------



## LinznMilly

kimthecat said:


> I take it personally for every reasonable person who voted leave of which there are many.


TBF, I could say the same about all Remainers being referred to as "Remoaners". 



> Does Goblin et al know many remainers don't really care because they seem to think if there's not another referendum soon there will be an uprising .


Really? Where do you hear that? I'm the only one who voted remain in my family. I personally believe that Brexit being abandoned without a referendum, will lead to absolute anarchy. Mum and her partner don't think Brexit will happen. Bro and SIL don't mention it because they don't know too much about the EU/Brexit, dad is sick and tired of beingbunched in with the racists ... and yes, calling his BIL an RAF officer, a traitor, for votkng remain, did occur to him

And, oh yes, @cheekyscrip, I've noticed.  :Watching


----------



## cheekyscrip

I have had a brain wave!
Let's make this thread a sticky. That will take it out of GC in a way ...
Once a thread is pinned....everyone, but the hardest hardcore lose interest in it....

Oh, and Stocky crawled back in....


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> What mess?


You're joking, right?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Seeing the bast**ds have taken over the Tory party, excuse the language but John Major called them that when they tried to oust him in the '90s, any one of the 11 who voted against the far right power grab could take over for me.
> 
> Better still, not a Conservative Government at all. They got the UK into this mess in the first place.


They had guts those Tory MPs. Corbyn would have sacked them all. I didn't want a Tory government either . Perhaps if Corbyn hadn't been leader of Labour they might have won .


----------



## Guest

Satori said:


> What mess?





KittenKong said:


> You're joking, right?


Just another mess bad politicians created for people to sort out.

This is another fine mess politicians have gotten us into.


----------



## Arnie83

So with a 10 / 11 point lead for Remain - as reported in many of today's papers - a few musing questions ...

What, now, is the Will of the People that our Parliamentarians are so keen to deliver?

With the important caveat that a restricted poll is subject to variation when scaled up to a national one, is the Will of the People that which was expressed 18 months ago, or that which is expressed now? Are the Brexiteers now the ones defying that will?

What criteria need to be satisfied - in terms of polling percentages - before the People should be asked again what they want before an irrevocable change is made?

And what criteria need to be satisfied before MPs feel freed from a historical referendum result and allow themselves to vote according to their judgement?

Is there any reason for the Brexiteers to resist another poll other than their fear that the People have indeed changed their minds?


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> I have had a brain wave!
> Let's make this thread a sticky. That will take it out of GC in a way ...
> Once a thread is pinned....everyone, but the hardest hardcore lose interest in it....
> Oh, and Stocky crawled back in....


You should have been a politician Cheeky. Nothing more interesting as threads with bans and nothing less interesting as lists of facts and endless discussions and specialists analysis of them. Soon Mods will be tempted to do that, so don´t give them any more ideas. We need a bit more Brexit posts, as the negotiations are just about to start. We passed the easy bit and the real mothership is about to come in sight.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> So with a 10 / 11 point lead for Remain - as reported in many of today's papers - a few musing questions ...
> 
> What, now, is the Will of the People that our Parliamentarians are so keen to deliver?
> 
> With the important caveat that a restricted poll is subject to variation when scaled up to a national one, is the Will of the People that which was expressed 18 months ago, or that which is expressed now? Are the Brexiteers now the ones defying that will?
> 
> What criteria need to be satisfied - in terms of polling percentages - before the People should be asked again what they want before an irrevocable change is made?
> 
> And what criteria need to be satisfied before MPs feel freed from a historical referendum result and allow themselves to vote according to their judgement?
> 
> Is there any reason for the Brexiteers to resist another poll other than their fear that the People have indeed changed their minds?


I really love people shouting that MPs should not be allowed to vote.
Who put those MPs in parliament and is the role of parliament then?

I always enjoyed British absurd sense of humour.


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> I really love people shouting that MPs should not be allowed to vote.
> Who put those MPs in parliament and is the role of parliament then?
> 
> I always enjoyed British absurd sense of humour.


Democracy as it´s best. Endless source of good drama. Can´t wait till some great British playrights and actors will make this a TV-serie. I can so see it already.


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> I really love people shouting that MPs should not be allowed to vote.
> Who put those MPs in parliament and is the role of parliament then?
> 
> I always enjoyed British absurd sense of humour.


Long live British absurdity! :Smug


----------



## cheekyscrip

Zaros said:


> Long live British absurdity! :Smug


Oh, I assure you...it will!


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> I
> Oh, and Stocky crawled back in....


@stockwellcat. 
Yay , Where would we be without our Stocky.


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ayed-hard-eu-brussels-mutineers-a8115111.html


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat.
> Yay , Where would we be without our Stocky.


Open for business me think  ,,,


----------



## Elles

Can’t they find people more current than Michael Heseltine and Tony Blair? 

Our MPs are supposed to represent their constituents and vote accordingly. They should have a say in Brexit and I personally think they should have worked cross party on it. However, they seem to be voting for themselves and crowing about it, not seriously representing their constituents. They should take their duties seriously and be seen to be taking their duties seriously. Their behaviour is dreadful.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Can't they find people more current than Michael Heseltine and Tony Blair?
> 
> Our MPs are supposed to represent their constituents and vote accordingly. They should have a say in Brexit and I personally think they should have worked cross party on it. However, they seem to be voting for themselves and crowing about it, not seriously representing their constituents. They should take their duties seriously and be seen to be taking their duties seriously. Their behaviour is dreadful.


???? Constituents voted them in?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Can't they find people more current than Michael Heseltine and Tony Blair?
> 
> *Our MPs are supposed to represent their constituents and vote accordingly*. They should have a say in Brexit and I personally think they should have worked cross party on it. However, they seem to be voting for themselves and crowing about it, not seriously representing their constituents. They should take their duties seriously and be seen to be taking their duties seriously. Their behaviour is dreadful.


I think they are supposed to represent _the interests_ of their constituents. That doesn't necessarily mean voting the way those constituents would like them to.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Can't they find people more current than Michael Heseltine and Tony Blair?
> 
> Our MPs are supposed to represent their constituents and vote accordingly. They should have a say in Brexit and I personally think they should have worked cross party on it. However, they seem to be voting for themselves and crowing about it, not seriously representing their constituents. They should take their duties seriously and be seen to be taking their duties seriously. Their behaviour is dreadful.


Could be argued Heseltine, Blair and of course John Major have the voice of experience.

The method of persuasion used in the EU referendum would have been successful had it been for compulsory military service for school leavers or the restoration of the death penalty.

I don't agree that Politicians should represent their constituents as you suggest. Many are human at the end of the day so are entitled to their beliefs. If their constituents don't like it they could vote them out.

The recent vote was not about stopping Brexit but stopping the right wing power grab. I'm sure if Corbyn was in power and tried something similar you wouldn't agree with it would you.


----------



## Elles

“I personally think they should have worked cross party on it”

Does that look as though I want a power grab from anyone?

In previous posts before the election, I also stated that I would prefer May not to get the huge majority she wanted. I don’t want the Conservatives to have carte Blanche over Brexit.

My disgust is over the back slapping, wolf whistles, desk banging, cheering and whooping, like a bunch of school kids at a one direction concert. This is serious and our representatives should take it seriously, they aren’t at a football match.

John Major, Tony Blair and Michael Heseltine might be the voice of experience, but what experience.


----------



## Elles

They are supposed to represent their constituents based on election statements and promises. So if their party said Brexit means Brexit and they personally said that they would abide by decision made by the electorate, trying to scupper Brexit is dishonest. If they said they will do their best to ensure we stay in the Eu and were voted in on that basis, then they should feel free to try their best.


----------



## Zaros

Elles said:


> Tony Blair might be the voice of experience, but what experience.


Murder, lies and illegal wars.

Did you really need to ask?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> They are supposed to represent their constituents based on election statements and promises. So if their party said Brexit means Brexit and they personally said that they would abide by decision made by the electorate, trying to scupper Brexit is dishonest. If they said they will do their best to ensure we stay in the Eu and were voted in on that basis, then they should feel free to try their best.


But they weren't trying to scupper Brexit. They were preserving the sovereignty of Parliament that is supposed to be one of the reasons - if not the main one - for the whole silly thing.

(I have to say, if I was trying to abide by the promise that Brexit means Brexit, I would have a very wide choice of voting options, since the phrase remains as meaningless as it ever was! )

And Blair and Major were the ones who were warning of problems with the Irish border question and the Good Friday Agreement. They were dismissed at the time as 'yesterday's politicians', but that particular problem, we will soon discover, is very far from being resolved.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> They are supposed to represent their constituents based on election statements and promises. So if their party said Brexit means Brexit and they personally said that they would abide by decision made by the electorate, trying to scupper Brexit is dishonest. If they said they will do their best to ensure we stay in the Eu and were voted in on that basis, then they should feel free to try their best.


Brexit has supporters in Labour and in Tories.
I remember times when Johnson, Gove and May supported Cameron.

All of them support their careers foremost.
Not Heseltine or Mayor.

They can be actually honest.
Lets say that really Britain was divided on Brexit. 
If not Merkel's decision to open Germany then demand that EU takes the brunt posing as a ruler of EU?
Promise of punishment for those who refused.
So yes, that left many annoyed.
Corbyn sabotaging Labour's support for Remain.
Not to mention if Labour endorsed David instead Ed Miliband we would have not had Cameron maybe?
No referendum?

Gibraltar may say that people want to be British, because 99% do.
In case of Brexit we just have a split.

Had people voted in a bit different circumstances ( thank you Merkel), Labour had different leader ( thank you Corbyn), results could be well different and we would not in this mess...Younger voters preferred Remain.
So that if 1% of voters may now vote different ly?
Plus some older will not be here and some young ones could vote?
What is the will of the people TODAY?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Whoever the bob geldof lookalike is, his videos have been linked here a few times. He's just a ranting YouTuber imo.
> 
> #wearenotleaving


Mike Galsworthy is a scientist actually. Someone far better qualified to evaluate the evidence than we are. Unlike Durkin, Delingpole, Ridley et al, he's someone who doesn't go around peddling propaganda to try to dupe us. The most worrying thing for me when looking at Trump supporters & hard brexit supporters is their seeming inability to distinguish propaganda from reliable sources. They almost always invariably have them the wrong way round.



kimthecat said:


> They had guts those Tory MPs. Corbyn would have sacked them all. I didn't want a Tory government either . Perhaps if Corbyn hadn't been leader of Labour they might have won .


I guess he'll sack all his party & himself for defending the sovereighnty of our Parliament from brexiteers then

There is *no* evidence to suggest a different labour leader would have done better than Corbyn - infact Corbyn increased labours share of the vote more than any other leader since Attlee & he increased the number of seats. This relentless tory austerity is destroying millions of lives, our NHS - our society - many are fighting back & Corbyn was an essential part of that for giving people an alternative to neoliberalism. True socialists were disillusioned with the direction new labour had taken, the labour party was formed to represent the interests of ordinary people - not corporate power & the elite. People with social values, environmental values were desperate for the labour party to reject neoliberalism & austerity & in Corbyn they saw an opportunity - hence the overwhelming support for him.

Same thing happened in America with Bernie Sanders. For the first time people were given a coherent alternative to neoliberalism. Where Corbyn lets us down is brexit- he should have realised this was a devastating act of self harm & been boldly opposed to it, this is what I find frustrating about him. But despite this & despite the relentless smear campaign by the tories, the hard right & in the gutter press (& even in the quality press), Corbyn exceeded all expectations. Labour stopped the predicted tory landslide (thank god!). I know many remain voters who wouldn't normally vote labour voted tactically too, so this is thanks to them too..

*Jeremy Corbyn increased Labour's vote share more than any of the party's leaders since 1945*
Socialist achieves bigger swing than Tony Blair

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-increased-1945-clement-attlee-a7781706.html










I saw many environmentalists & campaigners for social justice, even prominent members of the Green Party voicing their pleasure when Corbyn became leader. Because he offered real hope of change - of really progressive kind of politics many of us are yearning for. I don't care about personalities, its policies that matter to me every time! I know Cheeky would have liked to have see David Miliband over his brother as party leader. I didn't as David was a staunch Blairite. That said, I would vote labour to block the tories no matter who their leader was. This country is the mess its in solely down to the tories and their selfishness. For all the damage they've caused, the tory party deserves to be wiped out. I hope the young generation .betrayed by the tories, will punish them severely when the opportunity arises.

Keir Starmer has been outstanding. He's smart, honourable & principled. I have never seen a tory get the better of him in a debate. I think he would make a great successor to Corbyn & maybe he would have more widespread appeal?


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> They are supposed to represent their constituents based on election statements and promises. So if their party said Brexit means Brexit and they personally said that they would abide by decision made by the electorate, trying to scupper Brexit is dishonest. If they said they will do their best to ensure we stay in the Eu and were voted in on that basis, then they should feel free to try their best.


Too bad then that so few of these MP's aren't backing remain then isn't it. Anyone would think the non-binding referendum (which we are constantly told is irreversible, another lie) was actually won with a resounding majority. Now with additional information becoming available in a representative democracy MP's need to make choices on what is known at the current time. That's how UK democracy works as uninformed people are internationally recognised to frequently make bad decisions.

General election wasn't about brexit.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Also it wasn't Theresa's fault that her boss was an idiot. Poor woman is getting blamed for something not of her making
> 
> I'd like to see anyone else do a better job in the time span she has had to work with


. She had no plan yet triggered article 50 giving us limited time to sort out this massively complex issue. She has gambled will all our futures. Unforgiveable.



rona said:


> Or they are quietly watching and not running off at the mouth before they know what's happening


If they're watching yet can't see brexit has already diminished this country in SO many ways, then they're clearly not paying attention.



Arnie83 said:


> Jacob Rees-Mogg says that following the rules of the single market and customs union during the transition period, without having a say over them - because we've left the EU - is unacceptable.
> 
> Does anyone know if he has a sensible alternative to suggest?
> 
> He seems to be someone who takes personal pride in the fact that Wellington defeated Napoleon and is more concerned about a sort of national ego than about the welfare of people who actually live here. Or maybe I'm just being unfair


Hard to imagine his is tipped to be the next tory leader:Jawdrop Unfortunately jingoism & nationalism still appeals to many



Arnie83 said:


> So with a 10 / 11 point lead for Remain - as reported in many of today's papers - a few musing questions ...
> 
> What, now, is the Will of the People that our Parliamentarians are so keen to deliver?
> 
> With the important caveat that a restricted poll is subject to variation when scaled up to a national one, is the Will of the People that which was expressed 18 months ago, or that which is expressed now? Are the Brexiteers now the ones defying that will?
> 
> What criteria need to be satisfied - in terms of polling percentages - before the People should be asked again what they want before an irrevocable change is made?
> 
> And what criteria need to be satisfied before MPs feel freed from a historical referendum result and allow themselves to vote according to their judgement?
> 
> Is there any reason for the Brexiteers to resist another poll other than their fear that the People have indeed changed their minds?


----------



## noushka05

Welcome to brexit Britain.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> But who would you want to take her place?
> Boris ? Rees Mogg ? Leadsom? Gove. They're a motley crew,
> 
> People complained last year that TM wasn't an "elected "PM but now she is .


Chunky's got it covered


----------



## noushka05

_When you're a Russian bot pretending to be an authentic British pro-Brexit voice
but you forget to turn your Twitter location off

_


----------



## noushka05

*Theresa May*‏Verified [email protected]*theresa_may* Dec 16

_Threats of violence and intimidation are unacceptable and have no place in our politics._
_Everybody should be treated with tolerance, decency and respect_.

Great response from Byline Media >>>>.

*Byline*‏@*Byline_Media*  Dec 16

Byline Retweeted Theresa May

You should direct that comment to Paul Dacre, Prime Minister - the editor you saw in a private conclave just after you became PM 
and who David Davis cut short his Brexit negotiations to meet. 

 Represent the people, not just some off shore billionaires



.......................................------------------------------------------------------------------,


----------



## KittenKong

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-threat-paid-holidays-tories-11710779

Apparently the News of the World, sorry Sun on Sunday reported this as a good thing.

Take back control from the employee to the employer!


----------



## FeelTheBern

Shame on you @stockwellcat. You said you were going to avoid all Brexit-related threads!


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Mike Galsworthy is a scientist actually. Someone far better qualified to evaluate the evidence than we are. Unlike Durkin, Delingpole, Ridley et al, he's someone who doesn't go around peddling propaganda to try to dupe us. The most worrying thing for me when looking at Trump supporters & hard brexit supporters is their seeming inability to distinguish propaganda from reliable sources. They almost always invariably have them the wrong way round.
> 
> I guess he'll sack all his party & himself for defending the sovereighnty of our Parliament from brexiteers then
> 
> There is *no* evidence to suggest a different labour leader would have done better than Corbyn - infact Corbyn increased labours share of the vote more than any other leader since Attlee & he increased the number of seats. This relentless tory austerity is destroying millions of lives, our NHS - our society - many are fighting back & Corbyn was an essential part of that for giving people an alternative to neoliberalism. True socialists were disillusioned with the direction new labour had taken, the labour party was formed to represent the interests of ordinary people - not corporate power & the elite. People with social values, environmental values were desperate for the labour party to reject neoliberalism & austerity & in Corbyn they saw an opportunity - hence the overwhelming support for him.
> 
> Same thing happened in America with Bernie Sanders. For the first time people were given a coherent alternative to neoliberalism. Where Corbyn lets us down is brexit- he should have realised this was a devastating act of self harm & been boldly opposed to it, this is what I find frustrating about him. But despite this & despite the relentless smear campaign by the tories, the hard right & in the gutter press (& even in the quality press), Corbyn exceeded all expectations. Labour stopped the predicted tory landslide (thank god!). I know many remain voters who wouldn't normally vote labour voted tactically too, so this is thanks to them too..
> 
> *Jeremy Corbyn increased Labour's vote share more than any of the party's leaders since 1945*
> Socialist achieves bigger swing than Tony Blair
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-increased-1945-clement-attlee-a7781706.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I saw many environmentalists & campaigners for social justice, even prominent members of the Green Party voicing their pleasure when Corbyn became leader. Because he offered real hope of change - of really progressive kind of politics many of us are yearning for. I don't care about personalities, its policies that matter to me every time! I know Cheeky would have liked to have see David Miliband over his brother as party leader. I didn't as David was a staunch Blairite. That said, I would vote labour to block the tories no matter who their leader was. This country is the mess its in solely down to the tories and their selfishness. For all the damage they've caused, the tory party deserves to be wiped out. I hope the young generation .betrayed by the tories, will punish them severely when the opportunity arises.
> 
> Keir Starmer has been outstanding. He's smart, honourable & principled. I have never seen a tory get the better of him in a debate. I think he would make a great successor to Corbyn & maybe he would have more widespread appeal?


Agree on Keir Stammer.

Ed was a disaster.

Corbyn sabotaged Remain.
Last election showed more of anti May than pro Labour.
People got cold feet thinking about total Tory majority.

Even ED would have won.
David just had more appeal than weird vibes Ed, no matter where their fine allegiance were.
Voters do not vote for weird ( May, Ed ..).


----------



## Elles

The referendum doesn’t count, it’s none binding and not a big enough majority voted leave.

The GE doesn’t count, because it wasn’t about Brexit.

We should have another referendum, because now people know how bad brexit is, they all want to stay in.

The people shouldn’t vote on it, they should trust the MPs to vote on their behalf and in their best interests. MPs should vote to Remain whether the people like it or not, because Brexit is really bad.

Old people, unless they’re old politicians, shouldn’t be allowed to vote, because Brexit is their fault, but the young have to live with it. 

What have I missed?


----------



## rona

Elles said:


> The referendum doesn't count, it's none binding and not a big enough majority voted leave.
> 
> The GE doesn't count, because it wasn't about Brexit.
> 
> We should have another referendum, because now people know how bad brexit is, they all want to stay in.
> 
> The people shouldn't vote on it, they should trust the MPs to vote on their behalf and in their best interests. MPs should vote to Remain whether the people like it or not, because Brexit is really bad.
> 
> What have I missed?


All the leavers on here still want to leave


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> All the leavers on here still want to leave


All the leavers on here? Are you sure about that? Some, of course, but all? I doubt it very much.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> We should have another referendum, because now people know how bad brexit is, they all want to stay in.
> 
> The people shouldn't vote on it, they should trust the MPs to vote on their behalf and in their best interests. MPs should vote to Remain whether the people like it or not, because Brexit is really bad.


The first one of these obviously exaggerates the case, but polls are showing an increasing majority for remain, and the People should surely be listened to; isn't that what the Brexiteers and the Mail have been telling us for 18 months?

The second one I would prefer, because MPs should be voting in the national interest. But I really don't think they have got the cojones to do so.


----------



## Arnie83

@cheekyscrip ; and anyone else who is interested.

May has just said in the Commons (yes, I'm watching it live; sad, isn't it!) that the trade negotiations will take into account the needs of Gibraltar, and that the agreement will be good for everyone including Gibraltar.

That might not turn out to be the case, but it is encouraging that she remembers Gibraltar is there!


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> All the leavers on here still want to leave


I haven't checked carefully as I spend little time on this thread, but I can't think of anyone who has changed his/her mind: not friends, neighbours, colleagues or PF members. Tho' I'm sure there will be someone who will have nothing better to do than trawl the thread with a nit comb to find someone; but as I have a gang of four on ignore it will be wasted (on me anyway).


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> The referendum doesn't count, it's none binding and not a big enough majority voted leave.


Well if you actually look at UK referendums you would know that they can be made binding. Normally to do so they have a stated majority requirement  Too bad the stated majority requirement wasn't added but then the MP's were told it was not required as it was non-binding.



> We should have another referendum, because now people know how bad brexit is, they all want to stay in.


How about now as people have some clue as to what they are voting for. Leavers can't even agree what they voted for negating the fact that most of the leave campaign consisted of simple lies, including "Brexit the Movie".



> What have I missed?


You could also have asked a bloke called David Davis about referendums 15 years ago when Mr Davis warned MPs that referendums could be "dangerous" if "not done properly". They should be held, he explained, only if voters were told "exactly what they're voting for… We shouldn't ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper, and tell them to trust us to fill in the details afterwards." To which I say "Oops".

Maybe you can explain why, when facts are eventually known and people can make an informed choice you are against it?

An Alex Morritt wrote the following:


> If the surprise outcome of the recent UK referendum - on whether to leave or remain in the European Union - teaches us anything, it is that supposedly worthy displays of democracy in action can actually do more harm than good. Witness a nation now more divided; an intergenerational schism in the making; both a governing and opposition party torn to shreds from the inside; infinitely more complex issues raised than satisfactory solutions provided. It begs the question 'Was it really all worth it' ?


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> I haven't checked carefully as I spend little time on this thread, but I can't think of anyone who has changed his/her mind: not friends, neighbours, colleagues or PF members. Tho' I'm sure there will be someone who will have nothing better to do than trawl the thread with a nit comb to find someone; but as I have a gang of four on ignore it will be wasted (on me anyway).


A purely personal opinion but I suspect the people in this sort of thread, as with quite a lot in the country, have deeply held personal reasons for voting leave that will not be swayed by purely economic factors.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

@Goblin why am I against what?

Another referendum?

Firstly for the nth time I'm not, nor have I ever been. If people want a second referendum, go for it.

Secondly, you seriously believe that people are more informed now than they were when they were actually interested in it 2 years ago?


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> The first one of these obviously exaggerates the case, but polls are showing an increasing majority for remain, and the People should surely be listened to; isn't that what the Brexiteers and the Mail have been telling us for 18 months?
> 
> The second one I would prefer, because MPs should be voting in the national interest. But I really don't think they have got the cojones to do so.


Don't forget that the polls predicted remain in the actual referendum. Other than the exit polls, they haven't been very reliable of late. If remainers want to go for a second referendum with the hope of reversing the decision, imo they would be better off waiting a little bit longer.


----------



## KittenKong

Maybot bleats on about her, "Deep and special relationship with the EU" yet names her team as a "War Cabinet"!

Says it all really and still no real answer to the Ireland/EU border as no border yet leaving the CU and SM are completely incompatible.

Some mention has been said about people not changing their minds about supporting Brexit.

This is no surprise. What I find remarkable is many still have faith in May and co.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Don't forget that the polls predicted remain in the actual referendum. Other than the exit polls, they haven't been very reliable of late. If remainers want to go for a second referendum with the hope of reversing the decision, imo they would be better off waiting a little bit longer.


Absolutely; it isn't time yet. In fact I expect the gap to close considerably if not reverse because I'm guessing that the chaos of the Phase 1 negotiations is what led to the current figures; now that Phase 1 has been resolved I think there will be a 'Get on with it' response for a while.

But then I expect it to swing strongly back to remain once we find that we're not going to get anything like the benefits of membership.

My point is that the polls should be watched as an indication, and that once you (not you; the Brexiteers) have nailed your colours to the the mantra of "Will of the People", you can't just ignore what those polls are telling you when it's not what you want.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> Maybot bleats on about her, "Deep and special relationship with the EU" yet names her team as a "War Cabinet"!
> 
> Says it all really and still no real answer to the Ireland/EU border as no border yet leaving the CU and SM are completely incompatible.
> 
> Some mention has been said about people not changing their minds about supporting Brexit.
> 
> This is no surprise. What I find remarkable is many still have faith in May and co.


Problem is the alternative .
Only party worth voting IMO are Green...
Whom people do not want to vote for.
May could be replaced by Johnson, or Gove, Davis or Mogg...
Better?

There you are.

If you look who is next in line....

Else Corbyn.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Problem is the alternative .
> Only party worth voting IMO are Green...
> Whom people do not want to vote for.
> May could be replaced by Johnson, or Gove, Davis or Mogg...
> Better?
> 
> There you are.
> 
> If you look who is next in line....
> 
> Else Corbyn.


I don't want any of these vile people thank you. Brexiteers may argue they'll achieve a more "meaningful" Brexit. Less of the sound bites and more action. No deal, out is out, Britain for the British in other words if May stands down and a pre referendum Brexiteer took over.

Odd this may sound I have more respect for some of the others you mentioned when compared to May. At least they never changed their views to suit the occasion such as getting into a position of power like she has.

My gripe with Corbyn is his stance on Brexit. At least he won't be dragged into the "Special Relationship" with the US like other UK politicians and take part in their wars.

I'd rather have Corbyn any day compared to the lot we have at the moment. In a perfect world I would prefer a more moderate staunch remainer.

We don't live in a perfect world however.


----------



## KittenKong

This filth was found next to our letterbox this morning. "Brexit Under Threat". If only that was true.

Their claim that North East England voted leave is not exactly true.

Newcastle upon Tyne voted Remain.


----------



## Elles

You wouldn’t complain if a remain leaflet was put through your letterbox. You should be heartened that UKIP feel it necessary to spend money on it. They clearly do feel brexit is under threat. If the north east voted remain, the north east people stood behind the letterboxes will know that won’t they.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> You wouldn't complain if a remain leaflet was put through your letterbox. You should be heartened that UKIP feel it necessary to spend money on it. They clearly do feel brexit is under threat. If the north east voted remain, the north east people stood behind the letterboxes will know that won't they.


Interesting you don't mention the EFD. Now you have people from other countries funding propaganda and actually advertising it.


----------



## shadowmare

David Davis told EU it shouldn’t try cherrypick in the talks.......... whatever legal highs this guy takes for breakfast - I want that. “Brexit - ignorance is bliss” starring May, Davis, Johnson and other democratically elected great minds of Britain.
Germans have brilliant words for the mixture of feelings I feel when I watch the development of this farce - schafenfreude and fremdschamen


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> You wouldn't complain if a remain leaflet was put through your letterbox. You should be heartened that UKIP feel it necessary to spend money on it. They clearly do feel brexit is under threat. If the north east voted remain, the north east people stood behind the letterboxes will know that won't they.


The EFDD is a political group within the European Parliament.

It makes me wonder who actually did pay for the leaflet.

Whoever it was, I'm sure the 'Take Back Control' warriors in the Westminster Parliament will make plain their displeasure at a non-British group getting involved with our internal politics!


----------



## Arnie83

shadowmare said:


> *David Davis told EU it shouldn't try cherrypick in the talks*.......... whatever legal highs this guy takes for breakfast - I want that. "Brexit - ignorance is bliss" starring May, Davis, Johnson and other democratically elected great minds of Britain.
> Germans have brilliant words for the mixture of feelings I feel when I watch the development of this farce - schafenfreude and fremdschamen


Good grief.

I had to look that up to make sure you hadn't got it the wrong way round!


----------



## shadowmare

Arnie83 said:


> Good grief.
> 
> I had to look that up to make sure you hadn't got it the wrong way round!


Hahahaha honestly, when I saw the headline I thought the journalist made a mistake... nope. Just DD being a tit.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Agree on Keir Stammer.
> 
> Ed was a disaster.
> 
> Corbyn sabotaged Remain.
> Last election showed more of anti May than pro Labour.
> People got cold feet thinking about total Tory majority.
> 
> Even ED would have won.
> David just had more appeal than weird vibes Ed, no matter where their fine allegiance were.
> Voters do not vote for weird ( May, Ed ..).


One of the main reason's Ed was a disaster was he offered more of the same & this is what traditional labour supporters were sick to death of. Many were desperate for labour to get back to its roots & stop being a tory light party.

Its the same reason Hillary Clinton did so badly & why against all odds Bernie Sanders did so well in the USA. Like labour, when the Democrats shifted to the right & adopted Reagans Neoliberalism, they betrayed ordinary people - people are now desperate for a clear alternative.










Much of the press pulled out all the stops to discredit Ed & labour too, whilst rarely holding the tories to account on their abysmal record. I know a hell of a lot of people fell for the myths about labour cant be trusted with the economy for example (I know from posts on here many actually were duped by that lie).

The way the press portrayed Ed was disgusting tbh , hes one of my local MPs & actually he's a really nice, compassionate man with a great sense of humour & a good politician & hes very smart.

He isn't at all weird. Whilst his brother was a cheerleader of the Iraq war - Ed opposed it. Everyone I know on the left are appalled by the warmongers, I know a few people personally who destroyed their labour membership cards in fury at the partys position on Iraq. People I have spoken to, didn't want David Miliband to lead the party because he was tainted by Iraq.

I keep looking at this tweet by that slick, snake oil salesman. God the irony:Jawdrop If it wasn't for this shyster the UK wouldn't be in the state its in now. Cameron ( or May) will go down as the worst PM in history. No wonder the young generation have abandoned the tories - these selfish people have destroyed their future.










Corbyn has always rejected Thatcherism - he offered hope to millions of people suffering under the cosh of austerity. The irony here is, if the tories get their way, drag us out of the EU, we'll get neoliberalism on sterioids - the very ideology Corbyn has opposed all his career.( He needs to strongly oppose brexit, I totally agree about that, no one looking rationally & objectively could fail to see brexit is already a disaster for the UK.) Labour were predicted to be wiped out under Corbyn. Vilified in the media, undermined even by his own MPs, labour may have lost the election but they were the winners, Cheeky. Even hard right wingers were forced to admit as much & Blairites in the PLP praised Corbyns achievements.

Even Ed Miliband doesn't believe he would have done better than Corbyn lol - he praised Corbyn for 'proving the doubters wrong'  http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...ot-a-centrist-dad_uk_5a297ba2e4b03ece0300e222 . Just imagine how much better labour could have done if Corbyn had all his party behind him & a fair chance in the media?

This is what two of the worlds leading radical thinkers have to say on the rise of Corbyn. George Monbiot & Noam Chomsky.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/18/jeremy-corbyn-rivals-chase-impossible-dream

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/09/...sipras-grexit-austerity-neoliberalism-protest

Traditional labour supporters reject neoliberalism, millions of people are suffering under austerity, the environment, our NHS, public services are being trashed in the name of it - our society is broken. Many people desperately want real progressive change, I know you probably can't see it, but this accounts for Corbyns popularity, Cheeky.

And Brussels likes him too.


----------



## noushka05

*Theresa May agrees Christmas message to Santa.
*









David Schneider is good


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> All the leavers on here? Are you sure about that? Some, of course, but all? I doubt it very much.


Me too. I'm sure there must be some on here who can see the damage brexit has already done to our country before we've even left. I'm sure not everyone wants brexit more than they want our NHS for example. Some must surely be aware now that we can't have both. 

*David Lammy*‏Verified [email protected]*DavidLammy*  Dec 18

_You couldn't make it up. Brexit is costing us £350m per week in lost growth, plus an extra £10bn in tax revenue that could be spent on the NHS. 
We haven't left yet and Brexit already costing us more than we can ever gain from not paying into the EU budget

https://www.ft.com/content/e3b29230-db5f-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482_


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> This filth was found next to our letterbox this morning. "Brexit Under Threat". If only that was true.
> 
> Their claim that North East England voted leave is not exactly true.
> 
> Newcastle upon Tyne voted Remain.
> 
> View attachment 337757


Disgusting. Shows how desperate the dark forces behind UKIP are to drag us out of the safety of the EU. Unfortunately a lot of people will be sucked in by this garbage 

ETA. Hey KK!, someones made a poll with some good suggestions what to do with theirs here.

I love 1 & 4:Hilarious

50% Line the cat litter tray

00% Criticise the grammar

13% Burn, burn, burn

37% Brexiteer inlaw Xmas card


----------



## noushka05

Just found this. Report it @KittenKong  .
_
Just had this piece of disgraceful nonsense shoved through my door. In it, it calls elected MPs saboteurs who are betraying the nation.

Who do I report this to?










*Emma, you report that to the EU Fraud Department, 'OLAF'. Using EU/EFD funds for UK Domestic Political purposes is actually illegal under EU rules and consitutes Fraudulent Activity

*
_


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> One of the main reason's Ed was a disaster was he offered more of the same & this is what traditional labour supporters were sick to death of. Many were desperate for labour to get back to its roots & stop being a tory light party.
> 
> Its the same reason Hillary Clinton did so badly & why against all odds Bernie Sanders did so well in the USA. Like labour, when the Democrats shifted to the right & adopted Reagans Neoliberalism, they betrayed ordinary people - people are now desperate for a clear alternative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Much of the press pulled out all the stops to discredit Ed & labour too, whilst rarely holding the tories to account on their abysmal record. I know a hell of a lot of people fell for the myths about labour cant be trusted with the economy for example (I know from posts on here many actually were duped by that lie).
> 
> The way the press portrayed Ed was disgusting tbh , hes one of my local MPs & actually he's a really nice, compassionate man with a great sense of humour & a good politician & hes very smart.
> 
> He isn't at all weird. Whilst his brother was a cheerleader of the Iraq war - Ed opposed it. Everyone I know on the left are appalled by the warmongers, I know a few people personally who destroyed their labour membership cards in fury at the partys position on Iraq. People I have spoken to, didn't want David Miliband to lead the party because he was tainted by Iraq.
> 
> I keep looking at this tweet by that slick, snake oil salesman. God the irony:Jawdrop If it wasn't for this shyster the UK wouldn't be in the state its in now. Cameron ( or May) will go down as the worst PM in history. No wonder the young generation have abandoned the tories - these selfish people have destroyed their future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Corbyn has always rejected Thatcherism - he offered hope to millions of people suffering under the cosh of austerity. The irony here is, if the tories get their way, drag us out of the EU, we'll get neoliberalism on sterioids - the very ideology Corbyn has opposed all his career.( He needs to strongly oppose brexit, I totally agree about that, no one looking rationally & objectively could fail to see brexit is already a disaster for the UK.) Labour were predicted to be wiped out under Corbyn. Vilified in the media, undermined even by his own MPs, labour may have lost the election but they were the winners, Cheeky. Even hard right wingers were forced to admit as much & Blairites in the PLP praised Corbyns achievements.
> 
> Even Ed Miliband doesn't believe he would have done better than Corbyn lol - he praised Corbyn for 'proving the doubters wrong'  http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...ot-a-centrist-dad_uk_5a297ba2e4b03ece0300e222 . Just imagine how much better labour could have done if Corbyn had all his party behind him & a fair chance in the media?
> 
> This is what two of the worlds leading radical thinkers have to say on the rise of Corbyn. George Monbiot & Noam Chomsky.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/18/jeremy-corbyn-rivals-chase-impossible-dream
> 
> https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/09/...sipras-grexit-austerity-neoliberalism-protest
> 
> Traditional labour supporters reject neoliberalism, millions of people are suffering under austerity, the environment, our NHS, public services are being trashed in the name of it - our society is broken. Many people desperately want real progressive change, I know you probably can't see it, but this accounts for Corbyns popularity, Cheeky.
> 
> And Brussels likes him too.


Corbyn could have done more for Remain.
Could have done Something if he truly represented the people who would be so much worse because of Brexit.
NHS unis

No respect at all from me.
Ed Miliband might be the nicest guy if you know him personally.
Voters only see him on TV and comes across as hmmm... Weird.

Hilary might be a great person.
Comes on TV as glib and unappealing.

All voters see is persona, image...
Unfortunately Farage came across as witty, charming, likeable, regardless of what he is.
Conmen always come across as likeable.
This is their weapon.

People often know little about policies etc.
Vote because they like what they see.

In those stakes Corbyn comes across better than Ed.

Ruth Davidson if judging the media appeal is a star for Tories.

Obama, Reagan or JFK are best examples of star media appeal.

Party that wants to win has to back handsome, witty and approachable.


----------



## Elles

Barnier and other senior eurocrats were impressed with Jeremy?  Are you trying to make sure he never gets in? :Hilarious


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Corbyn could have done more for Remain.
> Could have done Something if he truly represented the people who would be so much worse because of Brexit.
> NHS unis
> 
> No respect at all from me.
> Ed Miliband might be the nicest guy if you know him personally.
> Voters only see him on TV and comes across as hmmm... Weird.
> 
> Hilary might be a great person.
> Comes on TV as glib and unappealing.
> 
> All voters see is persona, image...
> Unfortunately Farage came across as witty, charming, likeable, regardless of what he is.
> Conmen always come across as likeable.
> This is their weapon.
> 
> People often know little about policies etc.
> Vote because they like what they see.
> 
> In those stakes Corbyn comes across better than Ed.
> 
> Ruth Davidson if judging the media appeal is a star for Tories.
> 
> Obama, Reagan or JFK are best examples of star media appeal.
> 
> Party that wants to win has to back handsome, witty and approachable.


Probably why Trump won, a lot of people fell for his brash image. I guess this proves how easy it is to manipulate people into voting against their own best interests.
If only Corbyn looked more like Brad Pitt instead of Catweazel:Hilarious For an older guy though, Bernie seems to have that charisma & presence, if only the Democrats hadn't fixed it for him lose out over Hilary, how different would the USA (& the planet) be right now?


----------



## Elles

JFK


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Barnier and other senior eurocrats were impressed with Jeremy?  Are you trying to make sure he never gets in? :Hilarious


I would have thought this would go in his favour personally


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Probably why Trump won, a lot of people fell for his brash image. I guess this proves how easy it is to manipulate people into voting against their own best interests.
> If only Corbyn looked more like Brad Pitt instead of Catweazel:Hilarious For an older guy though, Bernie seems to have that charisma & presence, if only the Democrats hadn't fixed it for him lose out over Hilary, how different would the USA (& the planet) be right now?


Oh,Lala Corbyn...
He has a lot of charm...
If he was not betrayed Remain ...
Castro was a charmer too

Yes, we like them a bit rough...
Sleek suits are so not in....
Think insurance salesman....sooo not cool...


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh,Lala Corbyn...
> He has a lot of charm...
> If he was not betrayed Remain ...
> Castro was a charmer too


Corbyn isn't an authoritarian he believes democracy comes from below not from above - he's a bog standard democratic socialist. Like Bernie Sanders. The establishment media want people to fear him. to believe hes some communist because they know he represents the masses & the masses are a threat to the status quo.

Last month Corbyn & Noam Chomsky were awarded this International peace prize Cheeky.


----------



## cheekyscrip

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh,Lala Corbyn...
> He has a lot of charm...
> If he was not betrayed Remain ...
> Castro was a charmer too
> 
> Yes, we like them a bit rough...
> Sleek suits are so not in....
> Think insurance salesman....sooo not cool...


I was talking more about .... Being sexy, sort of?
Which Corbyn and Castro were sort of .. charm of a rebel...
Ed , poor thing, not at all... David definitely more there ...
Hilary as sex appeal ..close to Ed....


----------



## FeelTheBern

cheekyscrip said:


> I was talking more about .... Being sexy, sort of?
> Which Corbyn and Castro were sort of .. Ed , poor thing, not at all...


Corbyn...sexy?
Are you under the influence?


----------



## cheekyscrip

FeelTheBern said:


> Corbyn...sexy?
> Are you under the influence?


Not at all...but yes ..he appeals to maternal types, I am sure... He makes jams and grows organic veggies...

Guy has charisma, my dear...

No, I do not like him for betrayal. 
But see why he is popular.

Unkempt look might be quite masculine if done right, in sort of " saving the world had no time for grooming" way....


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> I was talking more about .... Being sexy, sort of?
> Which Corbyn and Castro were sort of .. charm of a rebel...
> Ed , poor thing, not at all... David definitely more there ...
> Hilary as sex appeal ..close to Ed....


Oh sorry, I've taken my serious head off now

I love your charm appeal scale:Hilarious Where does Bo-jo sit on it?


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Oh sorry, I've taken my serious head off now
> 
> I love your charm appeal scale:Hilarious Where does Bo-jo sit on it?


On his bike my dear!!! 

Used to be funny ...boying, clownish way...
It is getting tired now..


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> On his bike my dear!!!
> 
> Used to be funny ...boying, clownish way...
> It is getting tired now..












Whats not to like:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh,Lala Corbyn...
> He has a lot of charm...
> .


 There's no accounting for taste 

he has as much charisma as a dead fish .

Now if you'd have said Trudeau or Macron ......:Kiss


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> I was talking more about .... Being sexy, sort of?
> Which Corbyn and Castro were sort of .. charm of a rebel...
> Ed , poor thing, not at all... David definitely more there ...
> Hilary as sex appeal ..close to Ed....


See Corbyn does nothing for me - Ed on the other hand:Woot












(This is his official Christmas card - respect to he's reclaimed the bacon sandwich)


----------



## FeelTheBern

Do you know who would suit a beard? Mr. Sanders.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> See Corbyn does nothing for me - Ed on the other hand:Woot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (This is his official Christmas card - respect to he's reclaimed the bacon sandwich)


  There is no knowing what may take your fancy...trainspotting?








Or Star wars fans?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> You wouldn't complain if a remain leaflet was put through your letterbox. You should be heartened that UKIP feel it necessary to spend money on it. They clearly do feel brexit is under threat. If the north east voted remain, the north east people stood behind the letterboxes will know that won't they.


On the contrary. Nothing pleases me more than Brexiteers fighting amongst themselves. People are waking up to the lies and attempts to re-stir up momentum for Brexit will not fool everyone now the lies are exposed. To be fair UKIP weren't responsible for the red bus pledge.

This was recognised by the collapse in the UKIP vote and Mrs Strong and Stable losing her majority in the unnecessary General Election this year.

Even some enthusiastic Brexiteers I know who stand by their vote recognise a no deal hard Brexit would be damaging.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> On the contrary. Nothing pleases me more than Brexiteers fighting amongst themselves. People are waking up to the lies and attempts to re-stir up momentum for Brexit will not fool everyone now the lies are exposed. To be fair UKIP weren't responsible for the red bus pledge.
> 
> This was recognised by the collapse in the UKIP vote and Mrs Strong and Stable losing her majority in the unnecessary General Election this year.
> 
> Even some enthusiastic Brexiteers I know who stand by their vote recognise a no deal hard Brexit would be damaging.


I am less optimistic. People will wake up when the rent is not paid and their work is drying up.
Until they are directly affected like we here they will be happy to carry on Brexit ..


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> There is no knowing what may take your fancy...trainspotting?
> View attachment 337840
> 
> Or Star wars fans?
> View attachment 337841


I'm quite shallow Cheeky ! brooding looks are all well and good but I need to check out those physiques:Watching

:Wideyed blimey, have to say they both look in decent shape. I do like Corbyns tats










Ed's work outs have definitely paid off:Hilarious



















Someone's asking a pertinent question in the Metro.

*
Is it just us, or did Ed Miliband get sexy?*

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2017/01/31/is-it-just-us-or-did-ed-miliband-get-sexy-6417404/?ito=cbshare


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> I'm quite shallow Cheeky ! brooding looks are all well and good but I need to check out those physiques:Watching
> 
> :Wideyed blimey, have to say they both look in decent shape. I do like Corbyns tats
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ed's work outs have definitely paid off:Hilarious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Someone's asking a pertinent question in the Metro.
> 
> *
> Is it just us, or did Ed Miliband get sexy?*
> 
> Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2017/01/31/is-it-just-us-or-did-ed-miliband-get-sexy-6417404/?ito=cbshare


Must say  .. Imagine Bo Jo or Gove .. No, don't!!!


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Must say  .. Imagine Bo Jo or Gove .. No, don't!!!


You only have to look in "The Beano"' to see a caricature of Rees-Mogg.
(Walter the Softy incase you didn't know).


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> I am less optimistic. People will wake up when the rent is not paid and their work is drying up.
> Until they are directly affected like we here they will be happy to carry on Brexit ..


I think it's about some people woke up and smelt the coffee, leaving isn't just leaving there's a lot more to it than that, and it's going a devastating affect in some areas.


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws said:


> leaving isn't just leaving


Brexit means Brexit.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws said:


> I think it's about some people woke up and smelt the coffee, leaving isn't just leaving there's a lot more to it than that, and it's going a devastating affect in some areas.


I'm sure that the majority were well aware that it would be difficult for a few years. Never mind, we can vote in Corbyn in a few years and he will save us


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> I'm sure that the majority were well aware that it would be difficult for a few years. Never mind, we can vote in Corbyn in a few years and he will save us


How many years, do you think?


----------



## Goblin

rona said:


> I'm sure that the majority were well aware that it would be difficult for a few years. Never mind, we can vote in Corbyn in a few years and he will save us


After those "years" what have we actually gained?


----------



## Arnie83

I didn't really expect an answer to that.

It's just that, for example, the financial services industry contributes a little over £70 billion in tax revenues to the exchequer. (Figures from the Institute of Fiscal Studies)

If, as the EU are saying, we lose our passporting rights, that industry is going to take a hit. It probably won't be huge, especially in the short term, but let's pluck a figure out of the air and say that profits are hit such that their taxes fall by 10%.

That's a little over £7 bn, or roughly £140 million a week.

Which is 85% of what we actually pay the EU every week, taking into account EU reinvestment in the UK.

I wonder how far in the future it might be before we can afford to give the NHS more than twice that amount.


----------



## cbcdesign

I read today that some areas of the UK that voted out will suffer the most from the financial implications of Brexit on our economy. To me this whole sorry saga demonstrates why referendums are a very bad idea when dealing with a subject as complicated as our relationship with the EU. It was simply not possible to reduce the issue to a simple yes or no question as some of us knew from the beginning and others are slowly starting to recognise.


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws said:


> I think it's about some people woke up and smelt the coffee, leaving isn't just leaving there's a lot more to it than that, and it's going a devastating affect in some areas.


But aren´t many doing that? Based on the latests polls, most would vote remain now, when they realized that actually UK will lose money, not the other way around, and if UK wanted to keep the money (=good trade deals), UK would have to follow EU legislation anyway. But this time UK won´d have any say about the deals so eventually might end up paying more than before.



Satori said:


> Brexit means Brexit.


Yeh, right. And that means???


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I'm sure that the majority were well aware that it would be difficult for a few years. Never mind, we can vote in Corbyn in a few years and he will save us


Fine if it is just you.What if you have family to feed right now?
Not in a few years.

Right now.
So far Brexit cost us my job and costs of living here went up by about 25%.
With no guarantee things will get better at all.
Britain will just be poorer for foreseeable future.
The end of Empire.
Little Britain.

London no longer the City of Commerse.

So on..

Much worse off.
Most of us.
Putin laughing at our democracy...
If Corbyn like Jesus could only multiply bread and fish, or get heavenly manna like Moses..

While Germany will rule EU and we will have no voice at all.
Just great.

Well done Britain.


----------



## KittenKong

Another one bites the dust.....









Didn't David Davies say he would resign if Green went?

Wonder if he'll keep his word? I doubt it.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> I didn't really expect an answer to that.
> 
> It's just that, for example, the financial services industry contributes a little over £70 billion in tax revenues to the exchequer. (Figures from the Institute of Fiscal Studies)
> 
> If, as the EU are saying, we lose our passporting rights, that industry is going to take a hit. It probably won't be huge, especially in the short term, but let's pluck a figure out of the air and say that profits are hit such that their taxes fall by 10%.
> 
> That's a little over £7 bn, or roughly £140 million a week.
> 
> Which is 85% of what we actually pay the EU every week, taking into account EU reinvestment in the UK.
> 
> I wonder how far in the future it might be before we can afford to give the NHS more than twice that amount.


Have a read of this. It's rather long but extremely well written and insightful

https://semperfidem2004.wordpress.c...mpact-on-the-city-of-london-follow-the-money/


----------



## kimthecat

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-operate-as-normal-after-brexit-a8119676.html

<The Bank of England has proposed new plans that will allow European banks to continue operating under existing rules in the UK post-Brexit.
This means that EU banks will be able to continue operating through branches in the UK and will not have to create costly subsidiaries.

The bank said that it made the decision based on the assumption that a "high degree of supervisory cooperation with the EU continues" once the UK leaves the bloc.>

Are they being over optimistic?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Another one bites the dust.....
> View attachment 338014
> 
> 
> .


 He was forced to resign because he was found to be lying . Quelle suprise!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...t-claim-plausible_uk_5a3acb25e4b0b0e5a79f493a


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> He was forced to resign because he was found to be lying . Quelle suprise!


What like Gove and Johnson in the leave campaign.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Must say  .. Imagine Bo Jo or Gove .. No, don't!!!


I can't, my imagination wont stretch that far












Happy Paws said:


> I think it's about some people woke up and smelt the coffee, leaving isn't just leaving there's a lot more to it than that, and it's going a devastating affect in some areas.


For some reason they can't/ or refuse to smell it. Brexit has already damaged our country & we haven't even left yet - the evidence is clear >>>

_Already, the cost of Brexit comes to more than the "savings" we were promised. Far from helping the NHS, it's cutting the tax revenue 
that pays for the NHS and other public services
_



rona said:


> I'm sure that the majority were well aware that it would be difficult for a few years. Never mind, we can vote in Corbyn in a few years and he will save us


Yeah its all good.
Prominent brexiteer Lord Digby Jones reckons we'll look back in 100 years & be glad we left

(Not even Corbyn can perform miracles. Face it - we're screwed)



MiffyMoo said:


> Have a read of this. It's rather long but extremely well written and insightful
> 
> https://semperfidem2004.wordpress.c...mpact-on-the-city-of-london-follow-the-money/


Written by a Trump & Steve Bannon sympathising blogger:Wideyed Speechless...


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> I can't, my imagination wont stretch that far
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For some reason they can't/ or refuse to smell it. Brexit has already damaged our country & we haven't even left yet - the evidence is clear >>>
> 
> _Already, the cost of Brexit comes to more than the "savings" we were promised. Far from helping the NHS, it's cutting the tax revenue
> that pays for the NHS and other public services
> _
> 
> Yeah its all good.
> Prominent brexiteer Lord Digby Jones reckons we'll look back in 100 years & be glad we left
> 
> (Not even Corbyn can perform miracles. Face it - we're screwed)
> 
> Written by a Trump & Steve Bannon sympathising blogger:Wideyed Speechless...


Sadly people need to believe in something.
People want miracles.
Fairytales.

This why they were sold on Brexit.
Or Trump.
Or Hitler and so on.

People want "Change" if enough tension is built up and someone ready to exploit it.

This happens on personal level and en masse.

Not enough " tricled down", and EU was such convenient scapegoat for failing NHS, failing education, failing border control...
EU will be blame still....now because they would not give in and give out.

For enticing business away from UK etc....

Basically doing what suits them and we will blame them that we have no voice in EU at all.


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Have a read of this. It's rather long but extremely well written and insightful
> 
> https://semperfidem2004.wordpress.c...mpact-on-the-city-of-london-follow-the-money/


It's certainly long! But thank you for posting it.

I'm not going to critique it, not least because my knowledge of UCITS funds is at best shaky!

But the thing is, since the piece was written 16 months ago, the banks and other financial institutions have actually begun setting up extra operations in the EU and they all have plans which are very seen going to be initiated. They clearly don't think along the same lines as the blogger.

The Bank of England have looked at the plans of 400 banks and concluded that up to 10,000 jobs could move on day one, growing to 75,000 over the long term.

The ECB are warning that significant staff must be located within the EU: "Banks do not only need to be well capitalised and have sufficient liquidity and funding, they also need to have substance locally. In other words, there cannot be empty shells or letterbox banks."

And from a purely logical business point of view, once premises have been bought - which many already have - and operations begin, staff will be leeched from London. It doesn't make business sense to have duplicate operations in two locations, and if they have to be in the EU, which they do, it will be London that will see the exodus.

It won't be a flood of rats fleeing a sinking ship, but it will happen, and is already happening. Relocating operations means relocating profits. That means less money for the UK Exchequer. And as I said, if it's 10% - which ain't drastic - the UK govt loses over £7 billion pounds, and there go practically all of our savings in EU fees.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Sadly people need to believe in something.
> People want miracles.
> Fairytales.
> 
> This why they were sold on Brexit.
> Or Trump.
> Or Hitler and so on.
> 
> People want "Change" if enough tension is built up and someone ready to exploit it.
> 
> This happens on personal level and en masse.
> 
> Not enough " tricled down", and EU was such convenient scapegoat for failing NHS, failing education, failing border control...
> EU will be blame still....now because they would not give in and give out.
> 
> For enticing business away from UK etc....
> 
> Basically doing what suits them and we will blame them that we have no voice in EU at all.


Spot on! x


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> It's certainly long! But thank you for posting it.
> 
> I'm not going to critique it, not least because my knowledge of UCITS funds is at best shaky!
> 
> But the thing is, since the piece was written 16 months ago, the banks and other financial institutions have actually begun setting up extra operations in the EU and they all have plans which are very seen going to be initiated. They clearly don't think along the same lines as the blogger.
> 
> The Bank of England have looked at the plans of 400 banks and concluded that up to 10,000 jobs could move on day one, growing to 75,000 over the long term.
> 
> The ECB are warning that significant staff must be located within the EU: "Banks do not only need to be well capitalised and have sufficient liquidity and funding, they also need to have substance locally. In other words, there cannot be empty shells or letterbox banks."
> 
> And from a purely logical business point of view, once premises have been bought - which many already have - and operations begin, staff will be leeched from London. It doesn't make business sense to have duplicate operations in two locations, and if they have to be in the EU, which they do, it will be London that will see the exodus.
> 
> It won't be a flood of rats fleeing a sinking ship, but it will happen, and is already happening. Relocating operations means relocating profits. That means less money for the UK Exchequer. And as I said, if it's 10% - which ain't drastic - the UK govt loses over £7 billion pounds, and there go practically all of our savings in EU fees.


Here is the full quote, which is based on 'if', but is also a lot less scaremongering. Let's also remember that Deutsche recently signed a lease on a larger London headquarters and ING announced last October that they were relocating more traders to London :

Mr Woods said: "I would be surprised if it ends up being more than that for banks and insurance companies.

"To put that in context, that is less than 1pc of financial services jobs. It is around 2pc of UK bank and insurance jobs, or 2pc to 3pc of the City if you choose a different denominator."


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> It won't be a flood of rats fleeing a sinking ship, but it will happen, and is already happening. Relocating operations means relocating profits. That means less money for the UK Exchequer. And as I said, if it's 10% - which ain't drastic - the UK govt loses over £7 billion pounds, and there go practically all of our savings in EU fees.


I think it's also very telling how the narrative has changed. Before the referendum it was all about the opportunites. Yet here we are having handed in article 50. I see nothing in the piece about how leaving the EU will gain an advantage and everything about how "it will not be as bad as some insist". Death by a thousand cuts rather than beheading doesn't matter to the victim.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Here is the full quote, which is based on 'if', but is also a lot less scaremongering. Let's also remember that Deutsche recently signed a lease on a larger London headquarters and ING announced last October that they were relocating more traders to London :
> 
> Mr Woods said: "I would be surprised if it ends up being more than that for banks and insurance companies.
> 
> "To put that in context, that is less than 1pc of financial services jobs. It is around 2pc of UK bank and insurance jobs, or 2pc to 3pc of the City if you choose a different denominator."


You're getting your information from a hard right blogger. They are actually fans of Trump & Bannon  - does this not ring any alarms bells with you? Your link is not a credible source of information - its just a brextremists blog.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> You're getting your information from a hard right blogger. They are actually fans of Trump & Bannon  - does this not ring any alarms bells with you? Your link is not a credible source of information - its just a brextremists blog.


Sam Woods is the chief executive of the Bank's Prudential Regulation Authority. The quote was from the Telegraph


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> It's certainly long! But thank you for posting it.
> 
> I'm not going to critique it, not least because my knowledge of UCITS funds is at best shaky!
> 
> But the thing is, since the piece was written 16 months ago, the banks and other financial institutions have actually begun setting up extra operations in the EU and they all have plans which are very seen going to be initiated. They clearly don't think along the same lines as the blogger.
> 
> The Bank of England have looked at the plans of 400 banks and concluded that up to 10,000 jobs could move on day one, growing to 75,000 over the long term.
> 
> The ECB are warning that significant staff must be located within the EU: "Banks do not only need to be well capitalised and have sufficient liquidity and funding, they also need to have substance locally. In other words, there cannot be empty shells or letterbox banks."
> 
> And from a purely logical business point of view, once premises have been bought - which many already have - and operations begin, staff will be leeched from London. It doesn't make business sense to have duplicate operations in two locations, and if they have to be in the EU, which they do, it will be London that will see the exodus.
> 
> It won't be a flood of rats fleeing a sinking ship, but it will happen, and is already happening. Relocating operations means relocating profits. That means less money for the UK Exchequer. And as I said, if it's 10% - which ain't drastic - the UK govt loses over £7 billion pounds, and there go practically all of our savings in EU fees.


This just popped into my inbox from efinancialcareers. I'm assured it's not a far right blog:

Much depends on the nature of the deal that is done with the EU. One senior banker recently told theFinancial Times that if the UK "pulled a rabbit out of a hat 10 minutes before midnight" on March 31, 2019, then banks including his own would reverse their decisions to shift jobs overseas. Barclays' experience suggests there's a staffing advantage to staying in the UK: the British bank says staff at its investment bank aren't leaving as much as usual because they're more confident of staying in London if they remain working there.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


>


Is that to stop Trump tweeting about it?


----------



## Jesthar

MiffyMoo said:


> Is that to stop Trump tweeting about it?


History tells us that the US can't even keep what the president is doing with his wedding tackle with a White House intern a secret. And Twitter wasn't even dreamed of then!


----------



## Mirandashell

There is no way Trump is not going to tweet about it. He will be bigging himself up like no-one's business!


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> This just popped into my inbox from efinancialcareers. I'm assured it's not a far right blog:
> 
> Much depends on the nature of the deal that is done with the EU. One senior banker recently told theFinancial Times that if the UK "pulled a rabbit out of a hat 10 minutes before midnight" on March 31, 2019, then banks including his own would reverse their decisions to shift jobs overseas. Barclays' experience suggests there's a staffing advantage to staying in the UK: the British bank says staff at its investment bank aren't leaving as much as usual because they're more confident of staying in London if they remain working there.


I'd suggest that the banks wouldn't wait anywhere near that long before taking action, but if there are signs that the UK will cave on its red lines so as to maintain its current status within the single market, then yes I'd agree. The sensible business decision would then be to maintain the current business model, since any change is going to be more costly than what we've got now.

We'll have to wait and see, I guess, but the question really is not 'if' it's going to cost us, but 'how much'. For the sake of those on welfare, I hope the cost is low, because that's where this government is ideologically committed to making cuts when they're needed.


----------



## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> You're getting your information from a hard right blogger. They are actually fans of Trump & Bannon  - does this not ring any alarms bells with you? Your link is not a credible source of information - its just a brextremists blog.


To be fair is anything false in that piece. Doesn't matter if it's right/left, the important thing is it's truthful.


----------



## MiffyMoo

This is interesting and rather cheery news.

https://www.leaprate.com/forex/regu...fid-license-passporting-continue-post-brexit/

Speaking of MIFID II and job losses, it will be extremely interesting to see what happens next year, but that will be EU wide, not just UK. There is also an issue with Asian trading, which could be a huge blow. I'm a bit hazy on those details though (although it sounds like a lot of Asian companies are as well)


----------



## MilleD

How does this work? Thought we were pants now?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtba...est-countries-for-business-2018/#459745a26de7


----------



## Guest

MiffyMoo said:


> Have a read of this. It's rather long but extremely well written and insightfull
> https://semperfidem2004.wordpress.com/2016/08/16/brexits-non-impact-on-the-city-of-london-follow-the-money/


Thanks, as this way we can all check what his opinion is based on, does it use only the information supporting his clains and how is the information being gathered. For me the papers should be flooding with these type of estimates about Brexit and only once we get the main points about pro/ against Brexit, we should make the desicions. So much better than those slogans on the buses.

I think that what City will need is a successul financial sector and if Brexit is damaging that, City too will suffer. Also if the global staff has problems living in UK and if the bänks actually need to be in UK; City will suffer. Definately there aren´t any benefits for the City in Brexit.

The insecurity and incompetence Brexit has been dealt with alone has already harmed very seriously Britain, not just your reputation, but you have lost lots of money due this. Unless people start getting proper information of EU and Brexit, the results will be even worse you can imagine. Remember, UK was doing financially really well while an EU member, and it has been a really long time since you genuinely had no money to spend. It is a totally different ballgame when politicians don´t want to spend money on public sector and when there isn´t any money to spend.


----------



## Goblin

MilleD said:


> How does this work? Thought we were pants now?
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtba...est-countries-for-business-2018/#459745a26de7


Well let's see. Restricted to "Gross domestic product" for growth. Then we have the advantage of very low sterling at the moment WHILST STILL IN the EU and can also take advantage of all the other trade deals in existence through the EU throughout the world which we will lose. In fact rather limited statistics considering other factors which would encourage firms to relocate to the UK not surprisingly one of which is how welcoming are they to foreign workers and what are the future prospects of the country. So smoke and mirror title as the UK continues to blindly put one foot in front of the other until the edge of the cliff and beyond...


----------



## noushka05

Goblin said:


> To be fair is anything false in that piece. Doesn't matter if it's right/left, the important thing is it's truthful.


I honestly don't know Goblin. And this is my point, layman like myself aren't qualified to know whether its truthful or not. A blog by some random blogger who provides no substantiated references & is also an apologist for Trump and white supremacist Bannon isn't the kind of place I would go to for information.


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> Thanks, as this way we can all check what his opinion is based on, does it use only the information supporting his clains and how is the information being gathered. For me the papers should be flooding with these type of estimates about Brexit and only once we get the main points about pro/ against Brexit, we should make the desicions. So much better than those slogans on the buses.
> 
> I think that what City will need is a successul financial sector and if Brexit is damaging that, City too will suffer. Also if the global staff has problems living in UK and if the bänks actually need to be in UK; City will suffer. Definately there aren´t any benefits for the City in Brexit.
> 
> The insecurity and incompetence Brexit has been dealt with alone has already harmed very seriously Britain, not just your reputation, but you have lost lots of money due this. Unless people start getting proper information of EU and Brexit, the results will be even worse you can imagine. Remember, UK was doing financially really well while an EU member, and it has been a really long time since you genuinely had no money to spend. It is a totally different ballgame when politicians don´t want to spend money on public sector and when there isn´t any money to spend.


I'm still waiting to hear of a single tangible benefit brexit will bring us.


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider* 4h4 hours ago 

_Where we're at: EU: starts proceedings against Poland for undermining democracy, human rights and the rule of law.

Theresa May: heads to Poland with Hammond and Johnson to woo them over Brexit.
_

#*SoProud*


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> How does this work? Thought we were pants now?
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtba...est-countries-for-business-2018/#459745a26de7


Not yet we're not, but there is a warning in the piece ...

"Britain's reign as the top country could be brief as companies' plans for Brexit unfold. London might lose 10,000 banking jobs as a result of Brexit, according to think tank Bruegel. Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, Nomura and Standard Charter are moving their EU headquarters to Frankfurt, with Paris and Dublin landing spots for other banks looking to ensure access to the single market."​


----------



## Jesthar

Bother, another meme I can't resist...


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> I honestly don't know Goblin. And this is my point, layman like myself aren't qualified to know whether its truthful or not. A blog by some random blogger who provides no substantiated references & is also an apologist for Trump and white supremacist Bannon isn't the kind of place I would go to for information.


It explains every different aspect of banking, no references needed. He is a banker and explained it very well


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> It explains every different aspect of banking, no references needed. He is a banker and explained it very well


I wonder if he underplays the impact on jobs of passporting as opposed to the monetary value of financial transactions, and also the ability of the EU to introduce new regulations post-Brexit designed to bring euro business 'in-house', but I don't know.

I have a certain scepticism about the piece since, in the 16 months since it was written, the concerns about loss of passporting have not disappeared, though many have rightly pointed out that the impact on the 'City' will not be devastating. Actions by those companies with skin in the game indicate unequivocally that there will be movement of personnel away from London.

And I have to cast some doubt on the disinterested nature of the blog post that concludes that London will be ...
"A place where bankers, hedge fund managers, traders and all sorts of wealthy people fed up with the EU's meddling will be delighted to find sanctuary. A place where they can safely turn around and say to the EU: Lick my a***"​


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> I wonder if he underplays the impact on jobs of passporting as opposed to the monetary value of financial transactions, and also the ability of the EU to introduce new regulations post-Brexit designed to bring euro business 'in-house', but I don't know.
> 
> I have a certain scepticism about the piece since, in the 16 months since it was written, the concerns about loss of passporting have not disappeared, though many have rightly pointed out that the impact on the 'City' will not be devastating. Actions by those companies with skin in the game indicate unequivocally that there will be movement of personnel away from London.
> 
> And I have to cast some doubt on the disinterested nature of the blog post that concludes that London will be ...
> "A place where bankers, hedge fund managers, traders and all sorts of wealthy people fed up with the EU's meddling will be delighted to find sanctuary. A place where they can safely turn around and say to the EU: Lick my a***"​


Haha, such a turn of phrase. I guess it's another case of wait and see


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Haha, such a turn of phrase. *I guess it's another case of wait and see*


No, no, it's a case of shouting loudly for another referendum!


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> *David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider* 4h4 hours ago
> 
> _Where we're at: EU: starts proceedings against Poland for undermining democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Theresa May: heads to Poland with Hammond and Johnson to woo them over Brexit.
> 
> #*SoProud*_


_
_
How low can you go? Supporting totalitarian politics and at the same time claiming Corbyn is a marxist? Doesn´t anyone else think this is so so wrong and false, and then ask why would anyone want to make allies with non democratic parties? Who benefits from chaos and totalitarian politics? War mongers at least, tax avadors and ultra rich, who make money with wars.



Arnie83 said:


> And I have to cast some doubt on the disinterested nature of the blog post that concludes that London will be ...
> "A place where bankers, hedge fund managers, traders and all sorts of wealthy people fed up with the EU's meddling will be delighted to find sanctuary. A place where they can safely turn around and say to the EU: Lick my a***"​


Now who wants to have safe haven from EU? Might it be that especially those wanting to avoid paying taxes or launderer money (= Putins billionaire friends, mafia and other criminals and all the dictators of the world).

Is anyone thinking this represents the British values and the will of people? Is this why you voted for Brexit?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> No, no, it's a case of shouting loudly for another referendum!


Grrr


----------



## Guest

Arnie83 said:


> No, no, it's a case of shouting loudly for another referendum!


But one can start whispering and when the time is right ...


----------



## Zaros

Go home people. Christmas is just around the corner. Peace on earth, goodwill to all men, except poor men, sick men, unemployed men, disabled men and old men.

The politicians couldn't give a to55 about any of you. They're going to have a wonderful Christmas come what Theresa May, because you've paid for it.


----------



## Guest

Zaros said:


> Go home people. Christmas is just around the corner. Peace on earth, goodwill to all men, except poor men, sick men, unemployed men, disabled men and old men.
> 
> The politicians couldn't give a to55 about any of you. They're going to have a wonderful Christmas come what Theresa May, because you've paid for it.


And to women. Just to make sure men means all humans here.


----------



## Goblin

MrsZee said:


> And to women. Just to make sure men means all humans here.


What about those who are neither, you can get into trouble for missing those.


----------



## KittenKong

How utterly pathetic, as if Brexit means blue passports last used in the 1980s, many will be too young or not even born when last used.

If we see the break up of the UK in the not too distant future they'll have to be redesigned pretty quickly for another £0.5million or so.

We'll probably see a campaign to abolish the metric system in the UK next.


----------



## KittenKong

Zaros said:


> Go home people. Christmas is just around the corner. Peace on earth, goodwill to all men, except poor men, sick men, unemployed men, disabled men and old men.
> 
> The politicians couldn't give a to55 about any of you. They're going to have a wonderful Christmas come what Theresa May, because you've paid for it.


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 338190


:Hilarious

What spirit Is this I see before me; the ghost of her Christmas future?:Nailbiting


----------



## Arnie83

Immigration Minister Brandon Lewis: "We wanted to return to the dark blue passport because we recognise the strong attachment people had to it." And he said it was a “unique opportunity to restore our national identity”.

Some Tory Brexiteers' sense of national identity must be incredibly weak if they lost it while part of the EU and need a blue passport cover to restore it.

As soon as they force me to have one of the things I shall find a burgundy cover to put over it to show that I support humanity coming together with a view to the future rather than splitting apart with a hankering for the past.


----------



## KittenKong

I'll be doing exactly the same thing. I would be too embarrassed to carry a Blue Brexit Passport uncovered.

It's hardly the old style navy blue though is it, more like a Tory blue.


----------



## Guest

Brexit according to Helsingin Sanomat article By their Bryssel correspondence, Jouni Mykkänen.

Eu wishes that the transition time will end 31.12.2020. So it will end then.
Till then UK benefits from the EU deals in the same way than now, pays the fees + the divorce bill, but it won´t have any say on the new laws etc. EU makes during this time. For this to happen UK and EU must come to an agreement By October 2018. you will most likely have a similar deal like Japan and Kanada have with us. Because UK does not want the same Customs and Inner market deals like Norway or Switzerland wanted, UK will not get the same trade deals either. Once you are out, UK will need to negotiate about 750 trade deals separately.

So good luck UK, you will need it. But luckily you will have a blue passport in your pocket, which makes such a difference to people´s minds and life. It is good that your government knows how to use it resources for the good of people and prioritize.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> How utterly pathetic, as if Brexit means blue passports last used in the 1980s, many will be too young or not even born when last used.


It has to happen. We wouldn't be allowed to keep a passport anything like the EU one. seems only sensible to go back to blue

Anyway, according to many, we won't be travelling anyway, so only the rich Tories will need them


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> seems only sensible to go back to blue


I couldn't care less what colour passport I have; not one jot, tittle or whit. Stripes? Polka dots? It's all the same to me.


----------



## KittenKong

MrsZee said:


> So good luck UK, you will need it. But luckily you will have a blue passport in your pocket, which makes such a difference to people´s minds and life. It is good that your govermment knows how to use it resources for the good of people and prioritize.


Plus of course the probability of having to apply for visas for a daytrip to France and beyond. Having baggage checked by customs on return from holidays after the long wait in collecting luggage from the rotary conveyor belt.

I wonder how many Brexiteers who take holidays to Spain etc. will expect this? I can see tempers rising, "We didn't have to do this before"! Delays +++.

It's what they voted for.


----------



## Satori

Good to see we are focussed on the big ticket items.


----------



## rona

Calvine said:


> I couldn't care less what colour passport I have; not one jot, tittle or whit. Stripes? Polka dots? It's all the same to me.


Nor I............I haven't got one and doubt I will ever have one


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> It has to happen. We wouldn't be allowed to keep a passport anything like the EU one. seems only sensible to go back to blue


Who would disallow us from keeping what we have now, and how?


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Good to see we are focussed on the big ticket items.


According to the Sun's front page it's the most important thing that happened in the world yesterday.

Which speaks volumes about their readers, or at least the Sun's view of them.


----------



## Mirandashell

Arnie83 said:


> Who would disallow us from keeping what we have now, and how?


By not allowing us to travel unless we reapply for a blue passport. Which they won't cos the travel companies and airlines will go nuts. So it's more likely we will use the EU ones until they run out and our new passports will be Blue UK ones.


----------



## KittenKong

Mirandashell said:


> By not allowing us to travel unless we reapply for a blue passport. Which they won't cos the travel companies and airlines will go nuts. So it's more likely we will use the EU ones until they run out and our new passports will be Blue UK ones.


Nothing to stop people from disguising the cover of this blue passport as long as its removed for showing, but sadly UK citizens will no longer be allowed to quickly go through the EU/CH channel and of course Visas will have to be obtained and checked too.

But of course if The Sun is to be believed it'll all be worth the extra wait and hassle. They might even get a nice EU stars stamp as a reminder of what they've given up in the new passport.

"Show your Tory blue Brexit Passport with pride", they'll be saying no doubt.


----------



## Mirandashell

I don't use my passport for travel either. But it's a hell of a lot easier to prove your identity with a passport than with anything else apart from a driving licence. Which I don't have. The hassle I had with banks and agencies and basically everybody is the sole reason I spent £90 on a passport.


----------



## Goblin

Satori said:


> Good to see we are focussed on the big ticket items.


Well obviously advantages of leaving have been shown to be unavailable.. Just pleased I renewed my passport last year.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> It explains every different aspect of banking, no references needed. He is a banker and explained it very well


He 'claims' to be in fund management on twitter. Do you actually have any real proof he's a banker or are do you just take everything he says as gospel? He actually says its his 'peers' that have verified his blog is factual. Reminds me of climate denier blogs, they sound very credible to the uninformed, hence why millions of people have no clue we are responsible for the looming catastrophic environmental breakdown staring us in the face. If only people would get their information from trusted experts.



MrsZee said:


> How low can you go? Supporting totalitarian politics and at the same time claiming Corbyn is a marxist? Doesn´t anyone else think this is so so wrong and false, and then ask why would anyone want to make allies with non democratic parties? Who benefits from chaos and totalitarian politics? War mongers at least, tax avadors and ultra rich, who make money with wars.
> 
> Now who wants to have safe haven from EU? Might it be that especially those wanting to avoid paying taxes or launderer money (= Putins billionaire friends, mafia and other criminals and all the dictators of the world).
> 
> Is anyone thinking this represents the British values and the will of people? Is this why you voted for Brexit?


We've scraped the bottom of the barrel Mrs Zee. The tories, cheerlead by hard brexiteers, are dragging this country's name into the gutter - but lets all focus on Corbyn though .

We've stuck two fingers up at our European allies for closer ties with Trump, Poland, Erdogan, Saudi - any despotic regime will do.

The tories 'share values' with a mass murderer. Duterte. FFS.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/liam-fox-meets-philippine-president-rodrigo-duterte




















This is how I feel.

(via twitter)


_Barbaric leaders, fascist sympathiers, those who hate the rule of law, those who abhor democracy, extra-judicial killers. _
_Theresa May reaches out to them all._

_What a ugly stain she is on my country._


*Poland offers Theresa May backing over Brexit deal amid rift with EU*

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-deal-rift-with-eu?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet


----------



## Arnie83

Presumably we'll have slightly different passports for those of us who have individual associate membership of the EU, unless that idea is vetoed by the Tories.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Presumably we'll have slightly different passports for those of us who have individual associate membership of the EU, unless that idea is vetoed by the Tories.


More than likely they will be unless you're fortunate to have dual nationality and can afford an additional passport.

Previously the single EU/UK passport was sufficient.

Such progress turning the clock back to the old days isn't it.


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider* 3h3 hours ago 

_"You can have a maroon passport that allows you to travel freely across 28 countries, or a blue one which allows you to travel freely through one. 
Which do you prefer?" 
The fool: "Blue one, please"_


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> He 'claims' to be in fund management on twitter. Do you actually have any real proof he's a banker or are do you just take everything he says as gospel? He actually says its his 'peers' that have verified his blog is factual. Reminds me of climate denier blogs, they sound very credible to the uninformed, hence why millions of people have no clue we are responsible for the looming catastrophic environmental breakdown staring us in the face. If only people would get their information from trusted experts.
> 
> We've scraped the bottom of the barrel Mrs Zee. The tories, cheerlead by hard brexiteers, are dragging this country's name into the gutter - but lets all focus on Corbyn though .
> 
> We've stuck two fingers up at our European allies for closer ties with Trump, Poland, Erdogan, Saudi - any despotic regime will do.
> 
> The tories 'share values' with a mass murderer. Duterte. FFS.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/liam-fox-meets-philippine-president-rodrigo-duterte
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is how I feel.
> 
> (via twitter)
> 
> 
> _Barbaric leaders, fascist sympathiers, those who hate the rule of law, those who abhor democracy, extra-judicial killers. _
> _Theresa May reaches out to them all._
> 
> _What a ugly stain she is on my country._
> 
> 
> *Poland offers Theresa May backing over Brexit deal amid rift with EU*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-deal-rift-with-eu?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet


Ok, you're absolutely desperate to believe it's a vile, trash filled post, so I'm going to leave it at that


----------



## noushka05

*Brexit. A handy guide to what is and isn't important*.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> More than likely they will be unless you're fortunate to have dual nationality and can afford an additional passport.
> 
> Previously the single EU/UK passport was sufficient.
> 
> Such progress turning the clock back to the old days isn't it.


Beating Rees-Mogg to the suggestion ... perhaps instead of the UK coat of arms on the front cover, the EU Associate Citizen one could have a picture of Traitor's Gate!


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Ok, you're absolutely desperate to believe it's a vile, trash filled post, so I'm going to leave it at that


Maybe you should check out their twitter feed?  If you provide me with some verifiable evidence I'll believe, but you don't seem to be able to provided any evidence they are even what *you* claim they are. A banker.


----------



## noushka05

*"Some people wanted blue passports"

*


----------



## Guest

noushka05 said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/liam-fox-meets-philippine-president-rodrigo-duterte
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is how I feel.
> 
> (via twitter)
> 
> _Barbaric leaders, fascist sympathiers, those who hate the rule of law, those who abhor democracy, extra-judicial killers. _
> _Theresa May reaches out to them all._
> _What a ugly stain she is on my country._
> 
> *Poland offers Theresa May backing over Brexit deal amid rift with EU*
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-deal-rift-with-eu?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet


Does May really think she will do better with the next phase in negotiations by dealing with current Polish government, which is following Turkish politics faster than you changed the colour of passports. If I were Juncker, I´ll make sure UK would pay for this, as that is just so wrong.

Are you actually aware that this person smiling with May wants to control also the justice system, beside the press and TV he already is controlling? That is the reason, why EU wants to cut down support for Poland, and I think that EU has every right to do. Democracy is still the best political system.

But what May does? Supports him and his ideas of tyranny. I bet she & co would love to rule without parliament, but at least for the time being UK is a democracy and May should have more respect for that.


----------



## Arnie83

I think May should also be a little wary of going round Europe and trying to persuade individual countries to diverge from the agreed EU position on Brexit. She will, rightly in my opinion, annoy and bolster the resolve of the majority by trying to drive a wedge between them.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MrsZee said:


> Does May really think she will do better with the next phase in negotiations by dealing with current Polish government, which is following Turkish politics faster than you changed the colour of passports. If I were Juncker, I´ll make sure UK would pay for this, as that is just so wrong.
> 
> Are you actually aware that this person smiling with May wants to control also the justice system, beside the press and TV he already is controlling? That is the reason, why EU wants to cut down support for Poland, and I think that EU has every right to do. Democracy is still the best political system.
> 
> But what May does? Supports him and his ideas of tyranny. I bet she & co would love to rule without parliament, but at least for the time being UK is a democracy and May should have more respect for that.


Many Polish people desperately protest against giving the control of judiciary to the ruling party. Sadly supported by Catholic church, which has lots of power of persuasion.
Seems God wants us to vote for ultra right.
The worst , worst propaganda, matching the times of " Komuna".

How May can support that?

Must say though lot of support for anti EU comes from returning immigrants from UK and EU.Those who left, because felt treated as " second hand" and now feel more " Polish and Proud" than ever.

Independent TV was fined 415 k dollars for showing demos against violation of our constitution!!
Oh, what a way to go...
Logging primeval forest in Bialowieza.

How many Brits realise what May is really endorsing here?


----------



## Arnie83

From the Sun:

BRITS will get their iconic dark blue passports back after Brexit, ministers announce today - in a stunning campaign victory for The Sun.
The Government has agreed to our demand to scrap the EU's burgundy model, *enforced on the nation from 1988*.​
From the Indy

.. the Home Office confirmed that the UK voluntarily adopted common passport criteria from the European Economic Community (EEC) and was not obliged to keep it.

A Government source told _The Independent_ the agreement was not legally binding and that redesigns have been considered around every five years. "But changing to blue would have looked odd, whereas now it doesn't look that odd," he added.​
So the Sun front page story is, in fact, a lie.

And, since we never had to adopt it in the first place and could have changed it at any time, Theresa May's tweet : "The UK passport is an expression of our independence and sovereignty ..." is nonsense.

But what do we expect from Brexit?


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> Does May really think she will do better with the next phase in negotiations by dealing with current Polish government, which is following Turkish politics faster than you changed the colour of passports. If I were Juncker, I´ll make sure UK would pay for this, as that is just so wrong.
> 
> Are you actually aware that this person smiling with May wants to control also the justice system, beside the press and TV he already is controlling? That is the reason, why EU wants to cut down support for Poland, and I think that EU has every right to do. Democracy is still the best political system.
> 
> But what May does? Supports him and his ideas of tyranny. I bet she & co would love to rule without parliament, but at least for the time being UK is a democracy and May should have more respect for that.


May clearly has no moral compass. She is seasoned liar & an authoritarian herself - you only have to look at the policies she has presided over to see that. Our own democracy is in serious jeopardy. The price of our 'freedom' from the EU is our actual freedom.

Look at the state this? Her latest press release. OMG.

Who could blame the EU if they pull the rug from under us?. We deserve to sink into the abyss


----------



## noushka05

Brexit voter changes mind, writes to MP asking for a referendum now truth is known. I wish more people would have the courage to do the same, maybe collectively we could then stop this train wreck?

https://www.markpack.org.uk/153384/leave-voter-changes-mind-writes-mp-asking-referendum-brexit-deal/


----------



## Arnie83

/\
Do any of our PF 'Leavers' have a cogent argument against that?


----------



## MilleD

It's a lovely letter, but still there are no actual 'facts' it in. For either side of the argument.


----------



## MiffyMoo

I can't read it in my phone, but why would 1 person's letter suddenly make all Brexiters realise the error of their ways and agree that we need a second, costly referendum? If that referendum threw up the same result, would remainers still whine that [fill in spurious reason] made it wrong?

I also haven't really responded as you're all so happily patting yourselves on the back over your condemnation of the blue passport, which I found extremely tiresome. No @KittenKong it won't cost 0.5bn (or million, as you stated). It's £490m and that cost is for a 10 year contract to design and print the passports. The last contract was awarded in 2009 and cost £400m - would you like to retrospectively screech about that as well, or are you waiting for the Indy to tell you how you feel about it? If the contract wasn't awarded to anyone, there would be no passports.

Personally, I don't care what colour my passport is.


----------



## Guest

MilleD said:


> It's a lovely letter, but still there are no actual 'facts' it in. For either side of the argument.


You mean that the fact that all the benefits leavers were promised turned lies doesn´t mean anything? Or the fact that now you pay all that extra (300 million a week) and instead of blooming financially like you used to and like most EU countries do, UK have become the slowest developing country in EU?

What are the facts that you are expecting to be revealed until it becomes clear that Brexit was a bad idea?


----------



## MilleD

MrsZee said:


> You mean that the fact that all the benefits leavers were promised turned lies doesn´t mean anything? Or the fact that now you pay all that extra (300 million a week) and instead of blooming financially like you used to and like most EU countries do, UK have become the slowest developing country in EU?
> 
> What are the facts that you are expecting to be revealed until it becomes clear that Brexit was a bad idea?


God are people still fixated on that bloody bus? It was spin, and anyone with any sense understood it as such when it happened.


----------



## Guest

MilleD said:


> God are people still fixated on that bloody bus? It was spin, and anyone with any sense understood it as such when it happened.


No, not only that but all the rest of it too. Like how EU robbed the indepence of UK, how you paid much more for EU than you got out of it, how EU is slowing down e.g. improving animal protection. Even the minor thing about passport had to be falsely explained to British. What is happening?? I just don´t get this.


----------



## MiffyMoo

MilleD said:


> God are people still fixated on that bloody bus? It was spin, and anyone with any sense understood it as such when it happened.


I haven't spoken to one person who voted to leave who did it on the basis of the stupid bus.


----------



## MilleD

MiffyMoo said:


> I haven't spoken to one person who voted to leave who did it on the basis of the stupid bus.


Me neither.

Getting tedious isn't it?


----------



## MiffyMoo

MilleD said:


> Me neither.
> 
> Getting tedious isn't it?


So tedious


----------



## Guest

MiffyMoo said:


> I haven't spoken to one person who voted to leave who did it on the basis of the stupid bus.


Who mentioned the bus now? We are talking about the _whole _thing, once more and more facts have been discovered about the real consequences of Brexit. And we all say that there was a huge amount of misinformation so that getting proper information about EU was really difficult. Lets move on to discuss about the facts we know now about Brexit, as the more you know, the better you can be prepared for it, right? Information surely is a good thing? Surely?


----------



## Arnie83

@MrsZee has it right: the bus claim is hardly important now, though it obviously was a lie.

But we know now that there will be a considerable economic cost even to leave; £39 billion at last count
and that the falling pound has already increased inflation
and that the growth rate has fallen
and that many companies have plans to relocate some of their operations out of the UK
and that the Irish border question with all its implications is not simple after all
and that we don't trade with "the rest of the world" on WTO rules but in fact with only about 25 countries while having free trade deals with over 90 and the freest of all with 27 in the EU
and that they really don't "need us more than we need them"
and that we are going to have to pay to rejoin some of the 35 agencies that we're leaving or pay to replicate their activities
and that the Tories want us to leave the single market rather than having "nothing threatening our place" in it
and that we're not going to have lots of extra money to spend
and that the negotiations are not going to be "the easiest in the history of mankind"
etc.

So the letter writer was saying that perhaps we should have another vote in the light of many of the things we were told wouldn't happen seemingly happening and vice versa.

If new evidence comes to light in a legal case concerning an individual, a retrial is called. The futures of 65 million people are affected by Brexit, and a lot of new evidence has come to light in the last 18 months. Is there not a good argument for a retrial second, and final, referendum once the facts of the negotiated deal are known?


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> If that referendum threw up the same result, would remainers still whine that [fill in spurious reason] made it wrong?


No. Once the facts are known, and the proposed deal is known, before the final irrevocable step is taken, you ask the people "Is this still your Will?" because that is all-important and must be delivered.

If the facts haven't changed their minds, they will vote for the proposed deal.

But democracy not only doesn't preclude the People from changing their minds, it demands that we change our actions when they do.


----------



## Guest

Arnie83 said:


> @MrsZee has it right: the bus claim is hardly important now, though it obviously was a lie.
> 
> But we know now that there will be a considerably economic cost even to leave; £39 billion at last count
> and that the falling pound has already increased inflation
> and that the growth rate has fallen
> and that many companies have plans to relocate some of their operations out of the UK
> and that the Irish border question with all its implications is not simple after all
> and that we don't trade with "the rest of the world" on WTO rules but in fact with only about 25 countries while having free trade deals with over 90 and the freest of all with 27 in the EU
> and that they really don't "need us more than we need them"
> and that we are going to have to pay to rejoin some of the 35 agencies that we're leaving or pay to replicate their activities
> and that the Tories want us to leave the single market rather than having nothing threatening our place in it
> and that we're not going to have lots of extra money to spend
> and that the negotiations are not going to be "the easiest in the history of mankind"
> etc.
> 
> So the letter writer was saying that perhaps we should have another vote in the light of many of the things we were told wouldn't happen seemingly happening and vice versa.
> 
> If new evidence comes to light in a legal case concerning an individual, a retrial is called. The future of 65 million people are affected by Brexit, and a lot of new evidence has come to light in the last 18 months. *Is there not a good argument for a retrial second, and final, referendum once the facts of the negotiated deal are known*?


I´d say so. If I bought a house and the seller hid all the problems (e.g. roof is leaking, toilets don´t work and heating is buggered), I´d have every right to cancel the deal. When rhe sama happens with Brexit, why shouldn´t you have the same rights. UK is still democracy, isn´t it?


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I couldn't care less what colour passport I have; not one jot, tittle or whit. Stripes? Polka dots? It's all the same to me.


Maroon! yuk yuk , yuk , what a dreadful colour :Meh Thank goD they changed it . Blue , now that's a lovely colour. 
Actually , my passport never sees the light of day except for identity purposes . I never got to travel as much as I hoped though I made it to Wales this year


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> and that the Tories want us to leave the single market


Let's not forget that Labour were gung-ho on leaving as well. Since then they seem to have changed their policy more than Corbyn changes his pants


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> Maroon! yuk yuk , yuk , what a dreadful colour :Meh Thank goD they changed it . Blue , now that's a lovely colour.
> Actually , my passport never sees the light of day except for identity purposes . I never got to travel as much as I hopes though I made it to Wales this year


My travel has hugely decreased since I got the dogs. I love deep blue, don't really mind burgundy. But I'm quite partial to purple


----------



## kimthecat

MiffyMoo said:


> My travel has hugely decreased since I got the dogs. I love deep blue, don't really mind burgundy. But I'm quite partial to purple


I said maroon , I don't know why I put that .  
I'm not keen on strong colours, they don't suit me , I love lilac .


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Let's not forget that Labour were gung-ho on leaving as well. Since then they seem to have changed their policy more than Corbyn changes his pants


Corbyn was ostensibly in favour of Remaining originally, but I confess I've had trouble keeping up with their official policies since, because they have been so many and contradictory!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Corbyn was ostensibly in favour of Remaining originally, but I confess I've had trouble keeping up with their official policies since, because they have been so many and contradictory!


" Blue is the colour"...
Don't you agree? 

Royal blue...

( rebels can stick yellow little stars on it...)

So now , counting crooked cucumbers and straight bananas, we can list three legit reasons to Leave!!!


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

MilleD said:


> It's a lovely letter, but still there are no actual 'facts' it in. For either side of the argument.


He hasn't listed the facts in his letter but they're there for all to see if people bother to take an objective look. Brexit is already a disaster & we haven't even left yet.



MiffyMoo said:


> I can't read it in my phone, but why would 1 person's letter suddenly make all Brexiters realise the error of their ways and agree that we need a second, costly referendum? If that referendum threw up the same result, would remainers still whine that [fill in spurious reason] made it wrong?
> 
> I also haven't really responded as you're all so happily patting yourselves on the back over your condemnation of the blue passport, which I found extremely tiresome. No @KittenKong it won't cost 0.5bn (or million, as you stated). It's £490m and that cost is for a 10 year contract to design and print the passports. The last contract was awarded in 2009 and cost £400m - would you like to retrospectively screech about that as well, or are you waiting for the Indy to tell you how you feel about it? If the contract wasn't awarded to anyone, there would be no passports.
> 
> Personally, I don't care what colour my passport is.


So that's £490m to change the colour of our passport. £350 million per week in lost growth, plus an extra £10 billion in lost tax revenue. Personally I'd prefer that money was used to save our NHS. But hey ho, we lost - you won.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/privatised-nhs-and-tax-rises-forecast-by-imf-h969qgjmb

*Privatised NHS and tax rises forecast by IMF*


----------



## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> So that's £490m to change the colour of our passport. £350 million per week in lost growth, plus an extra £10 billion in lost tax revenue. Personally I'd prefer that money was used to save our NHS. But hey ho, we lost - you won.


Money would have been spent on passports regardless, happens every 5 years. Rest though are fine. Still waiting to hear about the advantages to leaving. Notice how the passport issue is being used as deflection and to give a sense of achievement although even that is based on a lie. Is this the future, dazzle em with lies to make them happy.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> He hasn't listed the facts in his letter but they're there for all to see if people bother to take an objective look. Brexit is already a disaster & we haven't even left yet.
> 
> So that's £490m to change the colour of our passport. £350 million per week in lost growth, plus an extra £10 billion in lost tax revenue. Personally I'd prefer that money was used to save our NHS. But hey ho, we lost - you won.
> 
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/privatised-nhs-and-tax-rises-forecast-by-imf-h969qgjmb
> 
> *Privatised NHS and tax rises forecast by IMF*


No


----------



## MilleD

The guardian has sunk as low as saying if our passports were already blue , brexit might not have happened, what the hell? I'll get a link if you need one, but currently on my phone.


----------



## kimthecat

MilleD said:


> The guardian has sunk as low as saying if our passports were already blue , brexit might not have happened, what the hell? I'll get a link if you need one, but currently on my phone.


That's a strange thing to say . Anyone who cared that much could buy a leather cover that looked like the old ones for their new passports.

ETA It looks its just someones opinion .
It said on the BBC news tonight that the Uk could have kept the blue passports and they didnt have to change them . 

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-blue-passports-brexit-david-cameron-brussels


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> That's a strange thing to say . Anyone who cared that much could buy a leather cover that looked like the old ones for their new passports


Nobody really cares that much. It's just another non-story that has been blown out of all proportion


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> No


So brexit no matter the cost?. A fully privatised NHS, trashed economy, TTIP style trade deals with the worst of the worst which will mean a race to the bottom for the environment, food safety, workers rights, animal welfare & so on. It will mean giant corporations can sue our government - is worth it?. Apart from a blue passport can you tell me what we stand to gain from leaving the EU please?

The government are gambling with all our futures, what really scares me is millions of people don't seem to care.
*
'The Brexit impact assessments have just revealed that David Davis did nothing to prepare for Brexit'

Eloise Todd, chief executive from campaign group Best for Britain, said the reports were "useless and shoddy" work that a teenager would not be proud of.
"It is a masterclass in copy and paste," she said."David Davis has been shown up for the charlatan he is. He needs to consider his position"

https://www.ft.com/content/f0c20820-7835-34d4-b736-a95d7ca972a2

*



MilleD said:


> The guardian has sunk as low as saying if our passports were already blue , brexit might not have happened, what the hell? I'll get a link if you need one, but currently on my phone.





kimthecat said:


> That's a strange thing to say . Anyone who cared that much could buy a leather cover that looked like the old ones for their new passports.
> 
> ETA It looks its just someones opinion .
> It said on the BBC news tonight that the Uk could have kept the blue passports and they didnt have to change them .
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-blue-passports-brexit-david-cameron-brussels





MiffyMoo said:


> Nobody really cares that much. It's just another non-story that has been blown out of all proportion


These people seem to care - *a lot.* God we're a total embarassement. Other countries must be **$$ing themselves laughing at us.

 *Theresa May*‏Verified [email protected]*theresa_may* 18h18 hours ago

The UK passport is an expression of our independence and sovereignty - symbolising our citizenship of a proud, great nation.
That's why we have announced that the iconic #*bluepassport* will return after we leave the European Union in 2019.










*Nigel Farage*‏Verified [email protected]*Nigel_Farage* 23h23 hours ago
In the 2016 referendum, we wanted our passports back. Now we've got them back!









 *Jacob Rees-Mogg*‏Verified [email protected]*Jacob_Rees_Mogg* 17h17 hours ago

Symbolism is important and I hope it will be printed in the UK too


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> *Symbolism is important*


Of course it is. Rolls Royce, Bentley, Maybach, Aston Martin. The owners of such vehicles want you to know how much better than you they are.


----------



## Arnie83

MilleD said:


> The guardian has sunk as low as saying if our passports were already blue , brexit might not have happened, what the hell? I'll get a link if you need one, but currently on my phone.


Not sure why you class it as sinking so low.

I actually think it's a very valid point - although whether a blue passport would have changed sufficient mindsets is doubtful.

The main thrust of the piece - exemplified by the passport - is that the government didn't take sufficient account of those who felt their national identity threatened by EU membership. It seems to me that feeling must be a major factor for those Brexit supporters who have trouble articulating the benefits of leaving.

While trivial, changing the colour of the passport back to blue a couple of years ago, as we were completely capable of doing, might have indicated that the government did indeed take people's concerns seriously. And it might have shown those people that their identity wasn't under as much threat as some clearly thought when they voted.


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Nobody really cares that much. It's just another non-story that has been blown out of all proportion


Question is why.. could it be it's there to pretend Brexit is working. Why is it that it's so important when colour of passport has nothing to do with the EU? Reminds me of a scene in Waterworld, silly film but you have Dennis Hopper give a speech to his crew, hand out cigarettes to persuades them to row the ship. No idea where they are going, simply give them something useless and they'll do what he wants without questioning. Same principle here and why it's being made such a big deal out of. Calling for empty nationalism so people go "ooo progress, something tangible for Brexit" and will not look at reality. You are right though, it's a non-story and means nothing.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> Question is why.. could it be it's there to pretend Brexit is working. Why is it that it's so important when colour of passport has nothing to do with the EU? Reminds me of a scene in Waterworld, silly film but you have Dennis Hopper give a speech to his crew, hand out cigarettes to persuades them to row the ship. No idea where they are going, simply give them something useless and they'll do what he wants without questioning. Same principle here and why it's being made such a big deal out of. Calling for empty nationalism so people go "ooo progress, something tangible for Brexit" and will not look at reality. You are right though, it's a non-story and means nothing.


Perhaps, when the 'dangers' of the EU have been so relentlessly manufactured and exaggerated, the breaking of imaginary chains must also be similarly talked up in order to maintain the pretence.


----------



## KittenKong

I think bar blue passports they're going to be disappointed.

I'm surprised National Service/conscription isn't on the list.

This is also interesting and something I wasn't aware of: Croatia have blue passports and are in the EU! If someone did vote leave for the sake of blue passports they were lied to.

More evidence to me of the UK becoming isolated from Europe looking more inward by the day.

Very sad times I think


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 338388
> 
> 
> I think bar blue passports they're going to be disappointed.
> 
> I'm surprised National Service/conscription isn't on the list.


I'm wondering how many people think that stuff like metrication, passport colour and pub smoking bans were down to the EU.

They should have had excessively bendy bananas on the list.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> So brexit no matter the cost?. A fully privatised NHS, trashed economy, TTIP style trade deals with the worst of the worst which will mean a race to the bottom for the environment, food safety, workers rights, animal welfare & so on. It will mean giant corporations can sue our government - is worth it?. Apart from a blue passport can you tell me what we stand to gain from leaving the EU please?
> 
> The government are gambling with all our futures, what really scares me is millions of people don't seem to care.
> *
> 'The Brexit impact assessments have just revealed that David Davis did nothing to prepare for Brexit'
> 
> Eloise Todd, chief executive from campaign group Best for Britain, said the reports were "useless and shoddy" work that a teenager would not be proud of.
> "It is a masterclass in copy and paste," she said."David Davis has been shown up for the charlatan he is. He needs to consider his position"
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/f0c20820-7835-34d4-b736-a95d7ca972a2
> 
> *
> 
> These people seem to care - *a lot.* God we're a total embarassement. Other countries must be **$$ing themselves laughing at us.
> 
> *Theresa May*‏Verified [email protected]*theresa_may* 18h18 hours ago
> 
> The UK passport is an expression of our independence and sovereignty - symbolising our citizenship of a proud, great nation.
> That's why we have announced that the iconic #*bluepassport* will return after we leave the European Union in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Nigel Farage*‏Verified [email protected]*Nigel_Farage* 23h23 hours ago
> In the 2016 referendum, we wanted our passports back. Now we've got them back!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Jacob Rees-Mogg*‏Verified [email protected]*Jacob_Rees_Mogg* 17h17 hours ago
> 
> Symbolism is important and I hope it will be printed in the UK too


I said no because you're making up numbers and I really couldn't be bothered to argue. For someone who is constantly demanding links to facts, and shoving down our throats that you never post before doing your research, it REALLY doesn't help if your research is limited to the publication that spread the lie in the first place. Now please go back to my original post that you quoted, but clearly didn't bother to read and find out about the passport cost. And then please stop conflating that with anything to do with any other money spent or not, because it's utterly irrelevant


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> You are right though, it's a non-story and means nothing.


Glad we agree


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Glad we agree


I really don't think it is a non-story.

The Sun are claiming a "*Stunning Brexit victory*" in their 'campaign' to ditch the burgundy passport "*enforced on the nation from 1988*".

They have a print circulation of over 1.5 million people and god knows how many on line.

How many of those people think the EU wouldn't let us have a blue passport? How many minds have been influenced towards Brexit by this entirely false example of the interfering EU telling us what to do?

How many lies in the past - like those fabricated by Boris Johnson in his journalist days, or those that lead to people repeating the "corrupt EU" phrase - influenced the vote in 2016?

Surely it is important that outright lies are loudly identified as such. Isn't it?


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 338388
> 
> 
> I think bar blue passports they're going to be disappointed.
> 
> I'm surprised National Service/conscription isn't on the list.
> 
> This is also interesting and something I wasn't aware of: Croatia have blue passports and are in the EU! If someone did vote leave for the sake of blue passports they were lied to.
> 
> More evidence to me of the UK becoming isolated from Europe looking more inward by the day.
> 
> Very sad times I think
> View attachment 338389


Could you post the link to that bar graph from YouGov? Just asking because I've had a really good look and can't find it. Which would imply that a random blog that for some reason protects its tweets may just have made it up


----------



## Guest

Arnie83 said:


> Perhaps, when the 'dangers' of the EU have been so relentlessly manufactured and exaggerated, the breaking of imaginary chains must also be similarly talked up in order to maintain the pretence.


"Imaginary chains"or symbols can sometimes be the most important things people talk about, as they are easy for all to understand and see. Like the colour of a passport Populists focus always on things that are concrete, usually have nothing to do with the topic itself and use someone else as the culprit for everything bad in the country. Like a magician doing a trick, but without any responsibility of the consequences.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> I really don't think it is a non-story.
> 
> The Sun are claiming a "*Stunning Brexit victory*" in their 'campaign' to ditch the burgundy passport "*enforced on the nation from 1988*".
> 
> They have a print circulation of over 1.5 million people and god knows how many on line.
> 
> How many of those people think the EU wouldn't let us have a blue passport? How many minds have been influenced towards Brexit by this entirely false example of the interfering EU telling us what to do?
> 
> How many lies in the past - like those fabricated by Boris Johnson in his journalist days, or those that lead to people repeating the "corrupt EU" phrase - influenced the vote in 2016?
> 
> Surely it is important that outright lies are loudly identified as such. Isn't it?


I'm sure it means something to a very small minority, but I honestly have seen more about it from Remainers who are so excited that there's another stick that they can use to whip exiters with.

I think we can all agree that the Sun is a joke, but I'm quite struck by the double standards here. If one of us dares to quote any of the 'right wing rags' we immediately get shouted at. Yet you're allowed to use it against us? I think we should stick to the common sense rule of ignoring it


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> I really don't think it is a non-story.


The passports themselves are a non-story. The implications and the reasoning for touting it as something important, as previously mentioned, is another matter. It's a distraction to keep the "peasants" in line and not questioning.


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm sure it means something to a very small minority, but I honestly have seen more about it from Remainers who are so excited that there's another stick that they can use to whip exiters with.
> 
> I think we can all agree that the Sun is a joke, but I'm quite struck by the double standards here. If one of us dares to quote any of the 'right wing rags' we immediately get shouted at. Yet you're allowed to use it against us? I think we should stick to the common sense rule of ignoring it


I would agree with you - though I don't think I shout at anyone - but in this case the passport thing became a big story everywhere yesterday, with Theresa May tweeting

"The UK passport is an expression of our independence and sovereignty - symbolising our citizenship of a proud, great nation. That's why we have announced that the iconic #bluepassport will return after we leave the European Union in 2019."​
Forget the Sun; the Prime Minister is implying that the burgundy passport represented a weakening of our independence and sovereignty when it was absolutely nothing of the sort. If May had wanted to "symbolise our citizenship of a proud great nation", with a blue bit of cardboard, there was nothing stopping her from doing so.

Disingenuous demonisation of the EU has been rife, and effective, for decades.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> I would agree with you - though I don't think I shout at anyone - but in this case the passport thing became a big story everywhere yesterday, with Theresa May tweeting
> 
> "The UK passport is an expression of our independence and sovereignty - symbolising our citizenship of a proud, great nation. That's why we have announced that the iconic #bluepassport will return after we leave the European Union in 2019."​
> Forget the Sun; the Prime Minister is implying that the burgundy passport represented a weakening of our independence and sovereignty when it was absolutely nothing of the sort. If May had wanted to "symbolise our citizenship of a proud great nation", with a blue bit of cardboard, there was nothing stopping her from doing so.
> 
> Disingenuous demonisation of the EU has been rife, and effective, for decades.


No, you have never had a go for the source, but there are certain others who froth at the mouth when confronted by anything more right wing than the Guardian.

I honestly have no idea why she tweeted that, but I have never really thought of her as being 'on message'.

I think your last paragraph is a little harsh, but if that's how you see it, then so be it.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

'During a trip to Moscow, Boris Johnson told ITV News he remembered “a sense of personal loss and outrage” when blue passports were “taken away”.'

If I might diverge from my usual insistence on facts; what absolute rubbish!


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> 'During a trip to Moscow, Boris Johnson told ITV News he remembered "a sense of personal loss and outrage" when blue passports were "taken away".'
> 
> If I might diverge from my usual insistence on facts; what absolute rubbish!


I'm still convinced he was a Remainers until he saw a chance of grabbing top job


----------



## cheekyscrip

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm still convinced he was a Remainers until he saw a chance of grabbing top job


Oh, I agree, he had a speech for every occasion . Two faced liar?
With no honestly, no principles? No scruples.

Meanwhile Gibraltar is bow bashed by EU ( no, we are not Spanish) and we are singled out to have no transition deal. Basically our economy being wiped out.

While numpties celebrite their blue passports!

I had a blue one once. Before EU. 
It was nice. 
Didn't make any difference to my life though.
Sorry, you are in for disappointment.

May is not the only one who supports Polish nationalists 
Kremlin also does.

At least you can agree with Putin ..


----------



## MiffyMoo

cheekyscrip said:


> I had a blue one once. Before EU.
> It was nice.
> Didn't make any difference to my life though.
> Sorry, you are in for disappointment.


What disappointment? I've said all along that I don't care either way what colour my passport is; I do like blue, I think it looks quite smart, but given that it has lived in my sock drawer for the past year, it makes absolutely no difference to my life whether it's blue, green, or psychedelic spots.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Sounds like it was written by a Leaver?









Maybe TM's aide?
Exactly what she thinks about situation in Poland. Support for PiS!!!

Oh, no!!!
It was in Russia News!









Johnson should have had it so good in Moscow.
Still.messed up.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MiffyMoo said:


> What disappointment? I've said all along that I don't care either way what colour my passport is; I do like blue, I think it looks quite smart, but given that it has lived in my sock drawer for the past year, it makes absolutely no difference to my life whether it's blue, green, or psychedelic spots.


I meant it for the numpties celebration of the Blue, not you personally!!!

Have a mince pie...life is too short to argue .

Look at us in Gibraltar ...

And if we have to leave our home .. Poland?...
Ironic. ..

If you don't like mince pies I have stollen.
Plus lots of decent gin.


----------



## MiffyMoo

cheekyscrip said:


> I meant it for the numpties celebration of the Blue, not you personally!!!
> 
> Have a mince pie...life is too short to argue .
> 
> Look at us in Gibraltar ...
> 
> And if we have to leave our home .. Poland?...
> Ironic. ..
> 
> If you don't like mince pies I have stollen.
> Plus lots of decent gin.


Love Stollen! I wish I liked gin, as a friend of mine keeps posting loads of different flavours that she tries. Looks really lovely but ick! My mum drinks it to calm down her arthritis


----------



## cheekyscrip

MiffyMoo said:


> Love Stollen! I wish I liked gin, as a friend of mine keeps posting loads of different flavours that she tries. Looks really lovely but ick! My mum drinks it to calm down her arthritis


Your Mum is right.
It has very calming effect. Try Strawberry G&T. ( with strawberry gin, strawberry tonic and real strawberries...yummy!!!).


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> the Uk could have kept the blue passports


I bet it cost a few quid to change them too! You will be interested to know my cats have blue passports :Cat:Cat.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> I bet it cost a few quid to change them too! You will be interested to know my cats have blue passports :Cat:Cat.


? My pet passports are EU, they are blue!!!
Never burgundy.


----------



## Arnie83

Calvine said:


> I bet it cost a few quid to change them too! You will be interested to know my cats have blue passports :Cat:Cat.





cheekyscrip said:


> ? My pet passports are EU, they are blue!!!
> Never burgundy.


They're true patriots! 



Spoiler


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> They're true patriots!



Sadly .. All the lot of them are Spanish...even the fishes came with the Spanish fair... 
Scrip was dumped in Gibraltar, but comes from adjacent pueblo...little podenco cross.
Obviously naturalised by now...


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Of course it is. Rolls Royce, Bentley, Maybach, Aston Martin. The owners of such vehicles want you to know how much better than you they are.


And this peasant will never be a forelock tugger



MiffyMoo said:


> I said no because you're making up numbers and I really couldn't be bothered to argue. For someone who is constantly demanding links to facts, and shoving down our throats that you never post before doing your research, it REALLY doesn't help if your research is limited to the publication that spread the lie in the first place. Now please go back to my original post that you quoted, but clearly didn't bother to read and find out about the passport cost. And then please stop conflating that with anything to do with any other money spent or not, because it's utterly irrelevant


I'm happy stand corrected when I'm wrong, hence why I liked Goblins post putting me straight. Rather than accuse me of making up numbers why not ask *me* to provide evidence?. (If I can't then who could blame anyone for disputing them?). Don't you think that's the sensible thing to do? Surely that's how we find things out ? And if you can prove my numbers are incorrect - I will accept it, my mind is open to evidence. You surely can't expect someone to blindly accept the opinion, of, say, an anonymous blogger without credible references to back up their assertions though? If you/they had provided references from a reliable source I would have to accept it, unless I could find an even better source to refute the information.

This was my source for some of those numbers you refuted

. Brexit is *already* costing us more than we could ever recover in net contributions from the EU & we haven't even left yet.

What do we gain from leaving Miffymoo? What about our NHS?












https://www.ft.com/content/e3b29230-db5f-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482































This sounds like a plan - don't you think? 

*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider* Dec 22

IDEA.

People can choose the colour of their UK passport.

*Maroon passport *= you can continue to travel freely, work and live across the EU.

*Blue passport* = you can't do any of that but you have a blue passport.

Everyone's happy!


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


>


While I appreciate much of the above, I should point out that the first bunch on the list - Economists for Brexit - are the small bunch of, let us say, 'outlying'* Brexiteers who were predicting that everything would be absolutely marvellous as soon as we voted to leave. (They're now 'Economists for Free Trade' advocating unilateral removal of all tariffs and duties.) I'm not sure where the FT got their figure from but it does make the conclusions a little untrustworthy.

* As in, they out-lied even the other Brexiteers!


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> While I appreciate much of the above, I should point out that the first bunch on the list - Economists for Brexit - are the small bunch of, let us say, 'outlying'* Brexiteers who were predicting that everything would be absolutely marvellous as soon as we voted to leave. (They're now 'Economists for Free Trade' advocating unilateral removal of all tariffs and duties.) I'm not sure where the FT got their figure from but it does make the conclusions a little untrustworthy.
> 
> * As in, they out-lied even the other Brexiteers!


I believe I recall certain leave supporters quoting Minford et al on the closed thread. Shows how people were duped by all the lies. One thing Minford did admit though was manufacturing would be mostly wiped out when we leave. Ironic thing is most leave areas depend upon manufacturing for employment. My own area being a prime example. My hubby's works in a foundry & their jobs now look precarious - the majority of his workmates voted leave.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tunt-says-former-thatcher-aide-charles-powell


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> I believe I recall certain leave supporters quoting Minford et al on the closed thread. Shows how people were duped by all the lies. One thing Minford did admit though was manufacturing would be mostly wiped out when we leave. Ironic thing is most leave areas depend upon manufacturing for employment. My own area being a prime example. *My hubby's works in a foundry & their jobs now look precarious *- the majority of his workmates voted leave.


They'll be a lot more so if we pursue free trade deals with the likes of China, as lauded by the Brexiteers as our salvation.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Ceiling Kitty

From this week's Private Eye. Sorry about the poor quality of my camera, it's the best I could do in poor lighting! Merry Christmas one and all!


----------



## Zaros

There was a piece in the national newspaper regarding Farage, he's claiming BREXIT has cost him the knighthood he truly deserves.
What a crying shame.
Nigel ought to look beyond his vanity mirror, mirror on the wall, at the bigger picture and what it has cost us all.
I think the vacuous grinning fool should count his undeserved blessings, and be grateful that sword hasn't removed his pig ignorant head from his shoulders, for the sh1t storm he stirred up in the country.


----------



## KittenKong

Rumour has it Nick Clegg is a candidate for a knighthood. That will really p*** Farage off!


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> Rumour has it Nick Clegg is a candidate for a knighthood. That will really p*** Farage off!


For his role as deputy prime minister apparently.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5211891/Nick-Clegg-knighthood-New-Years-honours.html

So, let's recap, we've just had a visit from Saint Nick, who's left us with a Sir Nick and, true to traditional seasonal rumour, nothing for Old Nick.


----------



## Arnie83

Nadine Dorries on the blue passport ...

What this reaction demonstrates is the contempt with which many of the Remain establishment hold the electorate. ... 
Sadly, some people seem to think it's shameful and wrong to be proud of our country… 
Why should we not take back control of our passports and return to the traditional navy blue?​
Can it really be Dorries doesn't appreciate that we never lost control and could have returned them to 'traditional' navy blue at any time? Or is she trying to establish 'truth by repetition'?


----------



## Zaros

I don't understand all this fuss over the colour of a bleedin' passport.

It's a document that gets chucked in the back of a drawer when not in use, not something we frame and hang proudly on the wall of the best room in the house.

Surely to Christ there are more important issues than the colour of the cover of a little pamphlet?

It's pathetic and bloody childish!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Nadine Dorries on the blue passport ...
> 
> What this reaction demonstrates is the contempt with which many of the Remain establishment hold the electorate. ...
> Sadly, some people seem to think it's shameful and wrong to be proud of our country…
> Why should we not take back control of our passports and return to the traditional navy blue?​
> Can it really be Dorries doesn't appreciate that we never lost control and could have returned them to 'traditional' navy blue at any time? Or is she trying to establish 'truth by repetition'?


I was once proud of this country. Not anymore. If Ms Dorries thinks reverting back to a colour last used 30 years ago will make me proud she has to be kidding.


----------



## KittenKong

Zaros said:


> I don't understand all this fuss over the colour of a bleedin' passport.
> 
> It's a document that gets chucked in the back of a drawer when not in use, not something we frame and hang proudly on the wall of the best room in the house.
> 
> Surely to Christ there are more important issues than the colour of the cover of a little pamphlet?
> 
> It's pathetic and bloody childish!


They call it a Brexit success story, hence the fuss seeing it's the only "success" they're likely to achieve even though it's confirmed the change to burgundy 30 years was only advisory and they could have changed to blue any time they wanted without leaving the EU.


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> They call it a Brexit success story, hence the fuss seeing it's the only "success" they're likely to achieve even though it's confirmed the change to burgundy 30 years was only advisory and they could have changed to blue any time they wanted without leaving the EU.


I suppose it's like most things, folks, want to see something tangible for their investments.

True Blue passports eh?

What a capital success story.:Facepalm


----------



## Arnie83

One thing I don't quite understand: what's this "liberal elite" that I'm apparently part of for pointing out the stupidity of the passport issue and the alternative facts that have driven it?

Being liberal and (especially) elite sounds jolly nice, but I'm not entirely sure what it entails. Do I get anything for it? A little badge, perhaps?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ll-wpp-brand-damage-eu-citizens-a8120241.html


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> New Rumour has it Nick Clegg is a candidate for a knighthood.


I read that, and I have to admit I was surprised; he didn't seem to me to be an obvious candidate (not that I care one way or the other).


----------



## Calvine

KittenKong said:


> If Ms Dorries thinks reverting back to a colour last used 30 years ago will make me proud


 I imagine, like many people, you couldn't give a rat's arse!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Yes, Liar Clegg knighted.
Not knitted or knifed...which might be understood, but knighted...

For services to Tory party?

Because Lib Dem will not be taken seriously for many more years to come. Too many former students still are paying why Clegg promised fees will not rise!!!


----------



## Elles

Or you can have a sky blue ginger one, the Eu don’t care what colour the passport is and I’m more concerned about the look of the photo in mine. I don’t recognise the woman, I’m surprised they do.


----------



## cheekyscrip

This Christmas I had to hold my tongue when " Brexit and proud" was telling us " not to worry, things will change, but they will be all right"

How condescending, how pathetic and patronising.

Well, you are not affected, we are, do not tell us that ****.

Enough that you dropped us in it.

Wonder if it affects his life? His family?
Well, it did. His dd has not seen them for last two years and neither spoke to them. 
She plans to stay in EU. If she can.

The guy told me that there are benefits of Brexit , but he choses not to speak about it in my company. 

Is it because I am Polish? Had to bite my tongue again....


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> I don't recognise the woman, I'm surprised they do


A year or two back a male 'journalist' (possibly DM) allegedly went thro customs with his wife's passport and was not spotted. You could have a picture of your horse there, it wouldn't matter.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Because Lib Dem will not be taken seriously for many more years to come. Too many former students still are paying why Clegg promised fees will not rise!!!


 That's why I stopped voting lib dem because of that .


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> This Christmas I had to hold my tongue when " Brexit and proud" was telling us " not to worry, things will change, but they will be all right"
> 
> How condescending, how pathetic and patronising.
> 
> Well, you are not affected, we are, do not tell us that ****.
> 
> Enough that you dropped us in it.
> 
> Wonder if it affects his life? His family?
> Well, it did. His dd has not seen them for last two years and neither spoke to them.
> She plans to stay in EU. If she can.
> 
> The guy told me that there are benefits of Brexit , but he choses not to speak about it in my company.
> 
> Is it because I am Polish? Had to bite my tongue again....


 I don't understand this ? Who are you talking about and are you Polish?


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> I don't understand this ? Who are you talking about and are you Polish?


Q1 This was my SiLdd's gf's dad. I do not argue with guests. Ii leave it for pf :Smuggrin
Q2 ALL those years and you haven't noticed? Britain First will be appalled. :Hilarious though I spent well over 20 years abroad...mostly on British soil...

So, is the sofa offer still on  (at least one of my passports will be blue...)...:Finger

Clegg is a reptile,

Though I do not think reptiles' owners will forgive me that...reptiles are not two faced , all for sale, unscrupulous liars...

Calling him a *ho* will be offensive to all honest, hard working sex industry sector...


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes, Liar Clegg knighted.
> Not knitted or knifed...which might be understood, but knighted...
> 
> For services to Tory party?
> 
> Because Lib Dem will not be taken seriously for many more years to come. Too many former students still are paying why Clegg promised fees will not rise!!!


With the far right now in power I almost long for the days of Clegg, Cameron and Osbourne's coalition which really is saying something. Had the coalition continued from 2015 they probably wouldn't have been an EU referendum.

While I agree it seems odd to give Clegg a knighthood, (I've no time for this honors crap personally), rather him than Farage especially if it p****s him off.


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> With the far right now in power I almost long for the days of Clegg, Cameron and Osbourne's coalition which really is saying something. Had the coalition continued from 2015 they probably wouldn't have been an EU referendum.
> 
> While I agree it seems odd to give Clegg a knighthood, (I've no time for this honors crap personally), rather him than Farage especially if it p****s him off.


Surely Britain has people who done more than sucking up to Tories like nodding dogs? Then next year 10 DUP will be knighted too... In this case the nodding is done by TM.

BUT if she is replaced by Bo JO or another titan of economical acumen - Davis...
In comparison Cameron looks actually much more appealing than ever...


----------



## KittenKong

The whole world is laughing. Here's a piece from India (credit for the link goes to one of my friends over at Sabre Roads).
http://m.hindustantimes.com/world-n...es-ridicule/story-TIE1VnRTjs5eoJBpvZUgkI.html
























The last sentence says it all.


----------



## KittenKong

I've always liked this man!
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rexit-claims-heseltine?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> I've always liked this man!
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rexit-claims-heseltine?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> View attachment 339626


Oh, I agree.... At least foxes will be safe. Trail hunting banned. Good. No more uni fees!!!


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Q
> Q2 ALL those years and you haven't noticed? Britain First will be appalled. :Hilarious though I spent well over 20 years abroad...mostly on British soil...
> 
> So, is the sofa offer still on  (at least one of my passports will be blue...)...:Finger
> 
> .


Thanks for comparing me to Britain First . Maybe you didn't see the photo of the RAF Polish War memorial ,I posted in the 2016 Remembrance Day Thread. I don't have to defend myself but the reason I asked you to confirm you are Polish is that you are still an EU member so if Gibraltar ended back with Spain , you would be entitled to live there I assume ?
You also said you had lost your job because of Brexit when in fact you didn't. You left it and you are starting another one .
I said here somewhere in these threads that I felt bad about it but you know what , now I don't .


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> There was a piece in the national newspaper regarding Farage, he's claiming BREXIT has cost him the knighthood he truly deserves.
> What a crying shame.
> Nigel ought to look beyond his vanity mirror, mirror on the wall, at the bigger picture and what it has cost us all.
> I think the vacuous grinning fool should count his undeserved blessings, and be grateful that sword hasn't removed his pig ignorant head from his shoulders, for the sh1t storm he stirred up in the country.


Its not a knighthood Farage deserves - its a prison sentence for inciting hatred.



KittenKong said:


> Rumour has it Nick Clegg is a candidate for a knighthood. That will really p*** Farage off!


LOL

*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider*  21h21 hours ago

"...For services to enabling austerity, tuition fees and aiding and abetting a brutal Tory administration"










_Though if Clegg's knighthood is for services to winding up Farage who isn't getting one, I'm all for it._



KittenKong said:


> I was once proud of this country. Not anymore. If Ms Dorries thinks reverting back to a colour last used 30 years ago will make me proud she has to be kidding.


Same here. 100% this >>_ Nothing will make me feel less proud to be British than a blue ******* passport. 
It will symbolise everything small minded, selfish, fascist and racist that I am ashamed to be associated with.
**** Brexit and **** Blue ******* Passports.
_
They've turned our country into a laughing stock :Bag>>










Even Guy Verhofstadt is joining in the trolling 

*Guy Verhofstadt*‏Verified [email protected]*guyverhofstadt* Dec 23

_There is no EU legislation dictating passport colour. 
The UK could have had any passport colour it wanted and stay in the EU_

.


----------



## noushka05

Calvine said:


> I imagine, like many people, you couldn't give a rat's arse!


Key brexiteers seem ecstatic about it - does this not concern you at all, Calvine?


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> Thanks for comparing me to Britain First . Maybe you didn't see the photo of the RAF Polish War memorial ,I posted in the 2016 Remembrance Day Thread. I don't have to defend myself but the reason I asked you to confirm you are Polish is that you are still an EU member so if Gibraltar ended back with Spain , you would be entitled to live there I assume ?
> You also said you had lost your job because of Brexit when in fact you didn't. You left it and you are starting another one .
> I said here somewhere in these threads that I felt bad about it but you know what , now I don't .


As you have me on ignore I doubt you'll see this, but in case you can, it looks to me as though you've misinterpreted what Cheeky said. It wasn't a personal attack on you Kim.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

From listening to people in my own area & from reading posts on here & tweets on twitter its hard to disagree with this.

*James Melville*‏@*JamesMelville*  Dec 23

#*Brexit* is a calamitous act of self harm. My thoughts on how how it happened


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> Thanks for comparing me to Britain First . Maybe you didn't see the photo of the RAF Polish War memorial ,I posted in the 2016 Remembrance Day Thread. I don't have to defend myself but the reason I asked you to confirm you are Polish is that you are still an EU member so if Gibraltar ended back with Spain , you would be entitled to live there I assume ?
> You also said you had lost your job because of Brexit when in fact you didn't. You left it and you are starting another one .
> I said here somewhere in these threads that I felt bad about it but you know what , now I don't .


I was only joking dear @kimthecat , my apologies if it came across as serious ( but I put smilies). As to my job and Brexit- things changed post referendum in dramatic way. Wind down. Cuts on everything and preparing exit.

You are most dear gal and I do remember your posts in 2016.

If Gibraltar ends Spanish, it will end ruined.
I better pm you.

I am truly sorry if what I said in jest upset you!!!

You are most kind, open minded person and I admit I have no idea whether you voted this, that or not at all.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> From listening to people in my own area & from reading posts on here & tweets on twitter its hard to disagree with this.
> 
> *James Melville*‏@*JamesMelville*  Dec 23
> 
> #*Brexit* is a calamitous act of self harm. My thoughts on how how it happened


With the caveat that Leave voters, just like Remainers, cannot be lumped together as one, I completely agree with the above. And I am quite sure, just from hearing people talk about it, that sufficient numbers were voting according to mistakenly placed blame and / or unrealistic hopes for positive change to have swung the vote.

I'm hoping that sufficient canards have already been shot down for the People's Will to demand a second referendum before an abuse of democracy is allowed to shape the country's future for several decades.


----------



## Gallifreyangirl

The whole Brexit thing is driving me mad and wish i had never happened to be honest.


----------



## Arnie83

Gallifreyangirl said:


> The whole Brexit thing is driving me mad and *wish i had never happened *to be honest.


I hope that's a typo!!


----------



## Gallifreyangirl

Yes meant to be never happened lol


----------



## Guest

Gallifreyangirl said:


> Yes meant to be never happened lol


And what would be talking about then?



















And we could add all sorts of innuendo to make it interesting










But at the end of the day, talking about the weather


----------



## Guest

Gallifreyangirl said:


> The whole Brexit thing is driving me mad and wish i had never happened to be honest.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MrsZee said:


>


We could demo, then we can demand new elections, then choose people who want to take it all back...
But we are British, so will march on...cliff edge and beyond.....
But first we will throw down all who refuse to jump!!!
Down with the traitors!!!
All patriots will jump willingly, because our passports are BLUE , singing Rule Britannia and all will be well again.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Very true


noushka05 said:


> From listening to people in my own area & from reading posts on here & tweets on twitter its hard to disagree with this.
> 
> *James Melville*‏@*JamesMelville*  Dec 23
> 
> #*Brexit* is a calamitous act of self harm. My thoughts on how how it happened


Very true. Lets blame " the others".

Whoever. Immigrants. Jews. Gypsies. Christians. Muslim. Catholic. Commies.
It always works.
We never, ever learn.
By " we " I mean " humans".
**** sapiens, which sounds so ironic.


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Very true
> Very true. Lets blame " the others".
> 
> Whoever. Immigrants. Jews. Gypsies. Christians. Muslim. Catholic. Commies.
> It always works.
> We never, ever learn.
> By " we " I mean " humans".
> **** sapiens, which sounds so ironic.


It comes back to what I bang on about; the primitive instinct to be tribal and to distrust / dislike / reject the 'other'.

We want to 'take back control' so the they can't tell us what to do, even through a democratic vote.

We want our blue passports back so that we can show how we are distinct, a separate tribe.

We want to reduce immigration because there are too many of them here.

There are no economic benefits expected from Brexit. Even if some people think there might be, they are prepared to gamble the prosperity of the next generation on a very unlikely hope. Economics is not the reason for leaving.

All it really leaves is the desire to be a British tribe, apart from the rest of humanity.

Whether that is sufficient reason or not depends on an individual's point of view.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> From listening to people in my own area & from reading posts on here & tweets on twitter its hard to disagree with this.
> 
> *James Melville*‏@*JamesMelville*  Dec 23
> 
> #*Brexit* is a calamitous act of self harm. My thoughts on how how it happened


The sad thing is that if you read this attentively, I mean actually read it as opposed to getting carried away on yet another looney left torrent of bile, there is not one single sentence that isn't complete and utter bullsh1t. Not one sentence that is true. Not one assertion that can be supported by any evidence. It is all bollocks.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> The sad thing is that if you read this attentively, I mean actually read it as opposed to getting carried away on yet another looney left torrent of bile, there is not one single sentence that isn't complete and utter bullsh1t. Not one sentence that is true. Not one assertion that can be supported by any evidence. It is all bollocks.


Try then arguments that may show it as untrue. So far reading attentively your post I found none. What is there that you disagree with and why? Just saying bull is not good enough. 
Any facts?
Just being dismissive or swearing means that truly you have little to say except that you disagree. For no reason at all. Por la cara.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Lord Adonis resigns , as there is no more place for independent adviser, you have to speak Farage or else.
Truth is not welcome. 
Just like in communist regime. You had to agree with no criticism of government or go.
Congrats Britain!

Whom do you trust?
Farage, BoJo , Davies, Gove - or Heseltine, Adonis, Clarke, Stammer?
Who are two faced liars, opportunists, self interested demagogues?

Who is leading us to disaster? For their own gain?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Very true
> Very true. Lets blame " the others".
> 
> Whoever. Immigrants. Jews. Gypsies. Christians. Muslim. Catholic. Commies. Brexiteers.
> It always works.
> We never, ever learn.
> By " we " I mean " humans".
> **** sapiens, which sounds so ironic.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> The sad thing is that if you read this attentively, I mean actually read it as opposed to getting carried away on yet another looney left torrent of bile, there is not one single sentence that isn't complete and utter bullsh1t. Not one sentence that is true. Not one assertion that can be supported by any evidence. It is all bollocks.


I've read it with your analysis in mind, and it seems to me that there is one sentence, especially, which bears particularly on Brexit. Given your assertion that all of the sentences are, let's say, inaccurate, then your position must be that ...

"The EU _*is*_ the source of the problems facing Britain."

I think the UK's main problems at the moment stem more (though not exclusively) from a global crash nearly a decade ago, the fallacious theory adopted by Osborne that austerity leads to economic growth, and the Tories' subsequent opportunistic squeeze on the welfare state which in effect has made the poorest in society pay for the mismanagement of the financial sector.

So what, may I ask, leads you to the assertion that the EU is to blame?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Who then is responsible for voting Leave?
I do not personally blame those who voted for Leave as a result of misinformation and lies. Who truly believed that prosperity of Britain is threatened by "immigrants from EU" or that NHS will get 350mln a week. Or Welsh farmers. I blame career politicians who threw their weight behind Farage hoping to become the next PM.
Happy to destroy their own country reaching for the highest stool.
Cynical, selfish egotists.
I blame greedy oligarchs who bankrolled all that because it would make them even reacher ( Murdoch, Banks...Bow Group)...
Brexit was good for them, not " the masses".
I blame Corbyn, who was aware how much Brexit would hurt NHS, students, jobs for such lack of support for Remaining while he showed so much tenacity in defending his own position.
I blame Merkel for terrible lack of sensitivity, unless that was a cunning plan - take million of non EU immigrants, make decision singlehandedly and then demand that other countries accept it.
Small wonder that Poland, Hungary or Britain were really fed up and it was just the feeling that nationalist parties could exploit so easily. 
I do not blame the people. They were lied to. and still are.

Think: Heseltine has nothing to gain. He is a courageous man who can speak his mind. Tory, but not fighting to be next PM.

Lord Adonis certainly knows in his position what he is talking about.

I do not hear any more that Britain would be better off after Brexit. All I hear that it might not be so bad ( maybe).

So is it what we really want?

Actually I understand the national identity issues, identity crisis. Are we to solve by simply isolating ourselves?
By making our country poorer and diminished?
Will our voice be heard better outside?
Basically now in EU we have no voice at all.

No, I have no illusion as to EU , but if one lot could keep their beady eye on the other lot and vice versa...?
We, plain little folk, are better off in EU.
Fending off deluge of Russian money, USA sharks and Asian merchandise.

By leaving we are poorer, more vulnerable and so is EU.

Gain for Russia, China, India, USA...

When year and more ago I talked about Putin having his finger in Brexit pie some of you laughed, but are you laughing still?


----------



## rona

You lot still harping on? 

A little snippet with thanks to westernmost

http://www.export.org.uk/news/379709/UK-tops-Forbes-Best-Countries-For-Business-2018.htm


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> You lot still harping on?
> 
> A little snippet with thanks to westernmost
> 
> http://www.export.org.uk/news/379709/UK-tops-Forbes-Best-Countries-For-Business-2018.htm


Err, UK is still in EU and has been able to benefit from it. Remainers have always said UK has done well in EU. If you go back a long way in earlier Brexit threads you will find posts wondering why UK is complaining of not having enough money for the public sector, as UK has been a very rich nation. This is another proof that UK has been really doing well all the time while in EU. No one understands anymore why you are throwing all this away. Or maybe UK became too rich and thought there is a tree growing money and you can afford Brexit and it´s consequences.


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> You lot still harping on?
> 
> A little snippet with thanks to westernmost
> 
> http://www.export.org.uk/news/379709/UK-tops-Forbes-Best-Countries-For-Business-2018.htm


That is definitely good prospect for foreign investors who might fancy a takeover? Why otherwise Putin and his cronies, Trump and his cronies will encourage Brexit? Invest in it? Maybe they want to invest in a slice of former NHS?

There are still good pickings of Britush brands...

This is how Britain will "take control ". Sales anyone?

I wrote about it long before Referendum. This is why Putin meddled with Brexit.

Who owns British industry and infrastructure will actually have the Power and career politicians in their pockets.


----------



## Arnie83

rona said:


> You lot still harping on?
> 
> A little snippet with thanks to westernmost
> 
> http://www.export.org.uk/news/379709/UK-tops-Forbes-Best-Countries-For-Business-2018.htm


From the Forbes report:

Britain's reign as the top country could be brief as companies' plans for Brexit unfold. London might lose 10,000 banking jobs as a result of Brexit, according to think tank Bruegel. Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, Nomura and Standard Charter are moving their EU headquarters to Frankfurt, with Paris and Dublin landing spots for other banks looking to ensure access to the single market.

"The single biggest issue Britain will face is the frictionless participation in their economy of highly educated global talent. Talent is the key that unlocks innovation, growth, and competitiveness," says Matthew De Luca, a strategic consultant with Cushman & Wakefield.​
Nothing has improved because of the Brexit vote, and the expectation is still that, economically, things won't be as good once we leave than had we stayed.


----------



## KittenKong

It's getting beyond a joke now.....
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...consider-using-volunteers-to-guard-uk-borders


----------



## Elles

They do exaggerate. PCSOs are volunteers? It’s the same with nursing, nowadays you need a degree to empty a bedpan, when someone less academic, but caring and conscientious could do a wonderful job. They don’t need over qualified staff to check passports and I’m sure they’ll be trained for the job they’re employed to do.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> They do exaggerate. PCSOs are volunteers? It's the same with nursing, nowadays you need a degree to empty a bedpan, when someone less academic, but caring and conscientious could do a wonderful job. They don't need over qualified staff to check passports and I'm sure they'll be trained for the job they're employed to do.


PCSOs are not volunteers. Special Constables are. A big difference.

I'm sure this government would love a nation of volunteers. They have absolutely no idea people can't live on fresh air. Perhaps they do but they won't care.

Retired people on full pensions is one thing but not the "working age" unemployed. Indeed volunteering could affect or cancel benefits as they would be deemed not to be activity seeking work.


----------



## Arnie83

Blue passports and Dad's Army guarding the borders.

Enough to send some of the Brexiteers into nostalgic rapture.

But who will patrol the Northern Irish border with the EU, I wonder ...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Blue passports and Dad's Army guarding the borders.
> 
> Enough to send some of the Brexiteers into nostalgic rapture.
> 
> But who will patrol the Northern Irish border with the EU, I wonder ...


The pensioners!


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> The pensioners!


Not BL**DY likely, we've done our bit and paid our taxes, so they can go to hell and sort their own mess out.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws said:


> Not BL**DY likely, we've done our bit and paid our taxes, so they can go to hell and sort their own mess out.


C'mon cucumbers ( curved ones) and bedpans are waiting! Volunteer junior doctors and teachers also welcome!
Do you bit! 
You could be firewoman, ambulance driver, police... how exciting!


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> C'mon cucumbers ( curved ones) and bedpans are waiting! Volunteer junior doctors and teachers also welcome!
> Do you bit!
> You could be firewoman, ambulance driver, police... how exciting!


And so cheap too, hardly any training or wages needed either. and all who otherwise would not have made it to be a doctor or a police or firewoman, could do it in the future. Now why havent´t other nations thought about that before?
DIY anything. Brilliant.


----------



## Happy Paws2

cheekyscrip said:


> You could be firewoman, ambulance driver, police... how exciting!


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> The pensioners!


Well, seeing this government expect firefighters, police officers and NHS staff to be as fit as 20 year olds when they get to 67 and beyond nothing surprises me.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MrsZee said:


> And so cheap too, hardly any training or wages needed either. and all who otherwise would not have made it to be a doctor or a police or firewoman, could do it in the future. Now why havent´t other nations thought about that before?
> DIY anything. Brilliant.


Why not? Done before? For the start... snow...they can make roads and airports usable?
No special qualifications, just shovels.


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> Why not? Done before? For the start... snow...they can make roads and airports usable?
> No special qualifications, just shovels.


Or they could use children, can you imagine how many kids will love to use real police cars or fire engines.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MrsZee said:


> Or they could use children, can you imagine how many kids will love to use real police cars or fire engines.


Children did not vote for Brexit, but those who decided to get the country poorer and with no EU workforce should bravely step in. Help with border patrols , customs , provide free health care and community services. Make Britain great again! Not just sit on their old pot pensions and leave the mess to the next generation.


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> Children did not vote for Brexit, but those who decided to get the country poorer and with no EU workforce should bravely step in. Help with border patrols , customs , provide free health care and community services. Make Britain great again! Not just sit on their old pot pensions and leave the mess to the next generation.


Now that is a good idea!


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> They do exaggerate. PCSOs are volunteers?


They certainly do exaggerate ! Also, our wonderful lifeboat crews are volunteers too .

BTW its PSVs

https://www.police.uk/volunteering/
Special Constabulary
The special constabulary is a force of trained volunteers who work with and support their local police. 'Specials', as special constables are known, come from all walks of life - they are teachers, taxi drivers, accountants and secretaries, or any number of other careers - and they all volunteer a minimum of four hours a week to their local police force, forming a vital link between the regular (full-time) police and the local community.

Once special constables have completed their training, they have the same powers as regular officers and wear a similar uniform. policerecruitment.homeoffice.gov.uk/special-constables (opens in a new window)
*Police Support Volunteers (PSVs)* PSVs are citizen volunteers who give their time freely to perform tasks which complement the duties performed by police officers and staff. This helps free up officers and staff to perform key operational duties. Volunteer roles range from providing front counter services and administration to following up crime reports and incidents with members of the public. These volunteer roles provide significant benefits to the Police Service and to local communities.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> They certainly do exaggerate ! Also, our wonderful lifeboat crews are volunteers too .
> 
> BTW its PSVs
> 
> https://www.police.uk/volunteering/
> Special Constabulary
> The special constabulary is a force of trained volunteers who work with and support their local police. 'Specials', as special constables are known, come from all walks of life - they are teachers, taxi drivers, accountants and secretaries, or any number of other careers - and they all volunteer a minimum of four hours a week to their local police force, forming a vital link between the regular (full-time) police and the local community.
> 
> Once special constables have completed their training, they have the same powers as regular officers and wear a similar uniform. policerecruitment.homeoffice.gov.uk/special-constables (opens in a new window)
> *Police Support Volunteers (PSVs)* PSVs are citizen volunteers who give their time freely to perform tasks which complement the duties performed by police officers and staff. This helps free up officers and staff to perform key operational duties. Volunteer roles range from providing front counter services and administration to following up crime reports and incidents with members of the public. These volunteer roles provide significant benefits to the Police Service and to local communities.


Seems this vile government have replaced or replacing PCSOs with PSVs. The former when established in 2002 under a Labour government were definitely paid.

There is nothing wrong with volunteering. I've done voluntary work myself. The difference is this government are hell bent on replacing paid staff with unpaid. Look at Libraries for example? Disgraceful.

Would MPs work for nothing? Like hell they would!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_community_support_officer


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong True but this is to do with the government and governments change .


----------



## noushka05

Rule Britannia. 




*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider*  Dec 28

NOT REQUIRING FUNDING:
NHS
Social care
Schools
Emergency services
Prison services
Grenfell survivors
120000 homeless kids
Hundreds of thousands driven to foodbanks
The disabled
The vulnerable Families having to choose between heating and eating

REQUIRING FUNDING: The Queen


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Rule Britannia.


Unruly Britannia.

Here's an original thought, if a new royal yacht required, why not let the bleedin' royals pay for it.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> The sad thing is that if you read this attentively, I mean actually read it as opposed to getting carried away on yet another looney left torrent of bile, there is not one single sentence that isn't complete and utter bullsh1t. Not one sentence that is true. Not one assertion that can be supported by any evidence. It is all bollocks.


And yet I could pull plenty of posts up from members on this forum who believed our NHS & public services were under stain due to pressure from migrants. I can pull posts up from members who voted leave because they believed this rubbish -

_If this was a "Join the EU" vote knowing we would wreck our fishing industry, allow in millions of migrants to decimate housing stocks, burden the NHS and pay out millions in benefits, plus losing control of our borders and hand over sovereignty in legal matters to Brussels, how would we vote?
_
Oh & guess who liked that particular post Satori? 

So evidence on here suggests James is correct.


----------



## noushka05

Government policies - austerity are the real reasons this country is in such a state. _The UK is in a mess. But millions of people have been falsely manipulated by right wing media and influential Brexiters into believing that the blame lies with the EU.
_


















Good question >>>>


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Government policies - austerity are the real reasons this country is in such a state. _The UK is in a mess. But millions of people have been falsely manipulated by right wing media and influential Brexiters into believing that the blame lies with the EU.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good question >>>>


...


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> There's a fairly old but still popular children's song that goes something along the lines of;
> 
> _'There were ten in the bed and the little one said,
> These NHS cuts backs are getting completely out of bleedin' hand
> Roll over, roll over.
> So they all rolled over and we're buried next day
> There were none in the bed
> And the government said
> Let's sell it, let's sell it'_


_
And the carpetbaggers came & filled their boots.
_
I know that song:Nurseoctor


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> _And the carpetbaggers came & filled their boots.
> _
> I know that song:Nurseoctor


Sorry Noush' I submitted that post on the wrong thread, I thought I was reading from the Blaggard's Branson thread.

But I suppose if caps fit then they should be nailed securely to the relevant heads.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Still nothing interesting going on then. Just the same old stuff.


----------



## Calvine

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 340309
> 
> Still nothing interesting going on then. Just the same old stuff.


There's no fooling you, @stockwellcat.! Happy New Year anyway!


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Still nothing interesting going on then. Just the same old stuff.


Yep, people still unable to provide advantages to leaving to balance the proven negatives.


----------



## Arnie83

I think it will look very much like Remainer repetition, but part of that is due to an apparent reluctance of some Leavers who do post in here to engage in discussion about their assertions, or back them up with facts.

But things are happening in Westminster.

There is talk of Boris being given a more prominent Brexit role in a Cabinet reshuffle - God knows why - and renewed calls for the UK to walk away from negotiations if a trade deal has not been concluded by March! (Which is clearly impossible.)

At least the latter is easily explained; the more negotiations make clear what a bad deal we are likely to get, the more the People will realise that Leaving is not a good idea.

The Brexiteers want us out before the Will of the People is so evidently in favour of calling the whole thing off that even they can no longer ignore it.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I think it will look very much like Remainer repetition, but part of that is due to an apparent reluctance of some Leavers who do post in here to engage in discussion about their assertions, or back them up with facts.
> 
> But things are happening in Westminster.
> 
> There is talk of Boris being given a more prominent Brexit role in a Cabinet reshuffle - God knows why - and renewed calls for the UK to walk away from negotiations if a trade deal has not been concluded by March! (Which is clearly impossible.)
> 
> At least the latter is easily explained; the more negotiations make clear what a bad deal we are likely to get, the more the People will realise that Leaving is not a good idea.
> 
> The Brexiteers want us out before the Will of the People is so evidently in favour of calling the whole thing off that even they can no longer ignore it.


I really can't see the point of this thread . It would have been best to have separate threads as events happen . The Tory cuts and the Queens yacht could be separate as well . 
I don't know whats happening in Westminster . as you say , Its seems to be talk. lets hope it just gossip about Boris. 
Labour failed to win the election and we are stuck with this Government . 
I cant see them changing their minds about leaving and if people have changed their minds and don't want to leave then they will have to do more to force another Referendum . I dont think Polls would be enough to reverse the decision .


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> They certainly do exaggerate ! Also, our wonderful lifeboat crews are volunteers too .


Yes and risking their lives in the process. They are to be commended for their courage.

As for PSV's you notice that they are not at the forefront of policing but serving in a secondary role and as an interface to the public. Mainly due to the fact that policing requires additional training which PSV's do not have. That is one of the reasons PSV's also have limited powers including lacking the right to actually make an arrest.

No shock though is it when Gove was pushing "we've had enough of experts" that there is a continuation of the same theme. Who need experts to counter things like http://www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news/gun-smugglers-bought-weapons-from-94639 Why is it with all the money brexit is going to bring in (according to the leave campaign) the UK will not be able to protect it's own borders whilst "taking back control".


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I really can't see the point of this thread . It would have been best to have separate threads as events happen . The Tory cuts and the Queens yacht could be separate as well .
> I don't know whats happening in Westminster . as you say , Its seems to be talk. lets hope it just gossip about Boris.
> Labour failed to win the election and we are stuck with this Government .
> I cant see them changing their minds about leaving and if people have changed their minds and don't want to leave then they will have to do more to force another Referendum . I dont think Polls would be enough to reverse the decision .


I think the thread is to discuss Brexit related topics.

If the polls continue to move more in favour of Remaining - as they have been doing - then it is the MPs who will either force another referendum or vote down the government's plans. They are not prepared to do that yet because the shift in the Will of the People is not sufficiently large or established.


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> View attachment 340309
> 
> Still nothing interesting going on then. Just the same old stuff.


So you are going to post about Brexit .. But, yes, Brexit hasn´t gone away and May& co still have lots of problems trying to justify why it should go ahead, when all the facts show that it will not bring anything good to Britain.

To diverse the conversation about the negotiations they claimed the change of colour of the passport is the most important achievement and means more than anything for a true Brit. (failing to mention that they could have had any colour any times before too, but then a passport was just a passport). Now when May & co realize EU was the money tree and they will lose that, more and more ideas of how to cut down the spending of the public sector are coming up. Latest was to use much more volunteers for jobs, which used to require professionals before.

But stay tuned, if you want to know what the same old stuff contains, as really, what is really new under the sun. Same old people living and dying, same old nature trying to cope and losing every time it meets people.


----------



## Calvine




----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


>


Trying to tell us the referendum/ Brexit done the turkey?:Eggonface


----------



## Arnie83

I wonder what the turkey had been promised before the first vote ...


----------



## kimthecat

On a more humourous note, I guess Navy blue will be known as Brexit blue from now on . I bought another jacket today ( it was in a sale! ) and it is Brexit blue but unfortunately the walking boots I ordered from Cottontraders are EU Burgundy or should that be Ew Burgundy ! They had sold out of Brexit blue ones as their customers are oldies who voted Brexit and only blue will do


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I wonder what the turkey had been promised before the first vote ...


A good stuffing ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Calvine said:


>


Where's the brussels (sprouts :Hilarious)


----------



## stockwellcat.

So (apart from the usual banta) tell me why we should stay in the EU instead of asking repeatedly why Brexitiers should come up with an excuse why we voted the way we did when no excuse should be given seeing as in a general election we don't get this grief.


----------



## stockwellcat.




----------



## kimthecat

MrsZee said:


> So you are going to post about Brexit .. But, yes, Brexit hasn´t gone away and May& co still have lots of problems trying to justify why it should go ahead, when all the facts show that it will not bring anything good to Britain.


Yes but nothing is really happening on the Brexit front at this moment that we can be certain off , nothing that is worth discussing that hasn't already been said countless times.



> But stay tuned, if you want to know what the same old stuff contains, as really, what is really new under the sun. Same old people living and dying, same old nature trying to cope and losing every time it meets people.


I was thinking that myself recently , nothing really changes , plus ca change , plus c'est la meme chose. 
There's no happy ending because nothings ever really over . There's no rhyme or reason or any purpose for us being here . You're born and then you die and that's it .


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> So (apart from the usual banta) tell me why we should stay in the EU instead of asking repeatedly why Brexitiers should come up with an excuse why we voted the way we did when no excuse should be given seeing as in a general election we don't get this grief.


Well you never did argue the following (not my list):



> providing large % of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.


You've been unable to provide advantages to leaving based on reality.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> .


 Oh blimey ! I thought you were giving it a rest


----------



## stockwellcat.

I think I have been quiet for a while.


kimthecat said:


> Oh blimey ! I thought you were giving it a rest


Only if they do.

Any how HAPPY NEW YEAR (I enter this NEW YEAR saying I owe no one an excuse or an answer).
Next one might be out of the EU if we leave in March like some news-soaps (newspapers) are reporting :Hilarious

I am generally giving it a rest @kimthecat because I am not worried. Life goes on with or without brussels (sprouts).


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You've been unable to provide advantages to leaving based on reality.


So. I don't owe you or no one an excuse or an apology.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I think I have been quiet for a while.
> 
> Only if they do.
> 
> Any how HAPPY NEW YEAR (I enter this NEW YEAR saying I owe no one an excuse or an answet).
> Next one might be out of the EU if we leave in March like some news-soaps (newspapers) are reporting :Hilarious
> 
> I am generally giving it a rest @kimthecat because I am not worried. Life goes on with or without brussels (sprouts).


 Happy New year to you , too


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Happy New year to you


Well let's look forward this new year and not backwards.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So (apart from the usual banta) tell me why we should stay in the EU instead of asking repeatedly why Brexitiers should come up with an excuse why we voted the way we did when no excuse should be given seeing as in a general election we don't get this grief.


I don't think I've ever asked you for your reasons, but the benefits of staying, from my point of view include ...

A single market of 500,000,000 people for our businesses to sell into with no more barriers than within our own borders, leading to higher economic growth and more jobs for the next generation. The closest the world has to a truly free trade area.

Free Trade Agreements with more than 60 other countries around the world helping both them and us, on terms more favourable than would be achieved by a single country.

(CBI estimates net benefit of membership @ c. £80bn per annum)

Freedom of travel across all EU countries for pleasure, work or residence.

A louder voice in world affairs.

A leading voice in the cooperative ventures across many fields, from logistical necessities such as aviation through education and research where we can benefit from the leading minds of a continent rather than just a country.

The influx of young workers to many industries that need them - NHS, hospitality, agriculture etc - boosting the economy and contributing to public purse for future pension payments to aging UK population.

A safeguard for the environmental protections, workers rights and capitalist efficiencies that would otherwise be at the mercy of an undemocratic 'first past the post' system producing governments of fluctuating ideologies for which no majority of the electorate ever votes.

There's more that I could mention, but the overarching one for me:

Rejection of a nationalist mindset that considers the world as a bunch of competing tribes instead of seeing it as one family of mankind.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Yes but the world market is set to grow faster than the EU markets so why stay in a market that is going to grow slower than the rest of the world markets.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes but the world market is set to grow faster than the EU markets so why stay in a market that is going to grow slower than the rest of the world markets.


But UK is in slow down since referendum and performs worse than EU, worse than even Italy!!! For pit's sake!!! We are falling behind, dripping money...by bus loads...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> But UK is in slow down since referendum and performs worse than EU, worse than even Italy!!! For pit's sake!!! We are falling behind, dripping money...by bus loads...


Yes but the UK is entering the big wide world eg the World Market which is growing faster than the EU market, the EU markets are slowing right down. There is a world beyond the EU.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes but the UK is entering the big wide world eg the World Market which is growing faster than the EU market, the EU markets are slowing right down. There is a world beyond the EU.


UK was already in that big wide world with advantages as stated by those who know how things work. It's really quite simple. Population = power. Now tell me how 65million beats 450million in terms of getting better deals? Even the ex WTO leader stated UK is going to be on worst trading terms, hardly an EU biased source of information and he should know something about international trade and WTO rules.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> So. I don't owe you or no one an excuse or an apology.


Back to that. Actually you do owe people whose lives you are damaging some justification and to take responsibility for your vote.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> (CBI estimates net benefit of membership @ c. £80bn per annum)


Well we got a cheap exit price £39 billion.


> Freedom of travel across all EU countries for pleasure, work or residence.


And the EU countries in the Eastern block want to close the borders down and did during the migrant crisis.


> A louder voice in world affairs.


Not really.



> A safeguard for the environmental protections, workers rights and capitalist efficiencies that would otherwise be at the mercy of an undemocratic 'first past the post' system producing governments of fluctuating ideologies for which no majority of the electorate ever votes.


Deisel powered vehicles have caused more damage to the environment than petrol cars and the EU wanted all cars deisel powered. The UK wants to have electric powered cars.


> Rejection of a nationalist mindset that considers the world as a bunch of competing tribes instead of seeing it as one family of mankind.


Thats why Austria has gone into coalition with a far right party: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....could-hurt-europe-hockenos-opinion/index.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Back to that. Actually you do owe people whose lives you are damaging some justification and to take responsibility for your vote.


No I don't. It was a FREE vote/Referendum.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> No I don't. It was a FREE vote/Referendum.


Free <> irresponsible. It was also non-binding, something you ignore the evidence for.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Free <> irresponsible. It was also non-binding.


Like the vote that led the UK into the EEC (without dragging up the past). Even if it was binding Leave would have still won. Oh sorry you don't like that word but it's the truth. The results have been acted upon and the UK is now negotiating in the EU's stage 2 of the negotiations this year (2018).

Any how moving onto the present and future. HAPPY NEW YEAR.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Like the vote that led the UK into the EEC (without dragging up the past).


There, the UK was better off.



> The results have been acted upon and the UK is now negotiating in the EU's stage 2 of the negotiations this year (2018).


And can thankfully be stopped at any time.



> Any how moving onto the present and future. HAPPY NEW YEAR.


Happy new year. He's hoping for common sense and the government to actually listen to what is now the majority.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> There, the UK was better off.


It was a trade deal the UK signed up to not what the EU is today.



> And can thankfully be stopped at any time.


Neither Conservatives or Labour want to stop the withdrawal process.



> * He's hoping for common sense and the government to actually listen to what is now the majority.*


I am not. I am hoping for a swift withdrawal from something the UK did not sign up to in the 1970's. The only common sense is to leave the EU and not be apart of something we did not signup to. The UK signed up to a trading deal with the rest of Europe not what the EU stands for today. The majority however slim won, the minority are moaning currently.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes but the world market is set to grow faster than the EU markets so why stay in a market that is going to grow slower than the rest of the world markets.


We already trade with the world market - over 60 countries - through free trade agreements negotiated via the EU. Leaving the EU would not improve those agreements and may well damage some.

There is no extra growth to be had from those 60 countries unless we, as a market of 65 million, can negotiate a better deal than the EU, with a market of 500 million, managed.

And the EU is currently growing faster than the UK.



stockwellcat. said:


> Well we got a cheap exit price £39 billion.


The CBI's £80 billion is an estimated annual benefit to the UK, not a cost, and is a big reason to stay.

Your £39 billion is a cost, and is another reason not to leave.



stockwellcat. said:


> And the EU countries in the Eastern block want to close the borders down and did during the migrant crisis.


To refugees. Not to EU citizens.



stockwellcat. said:


> Deisel powered vehicles have caused more damage to the environment than petrol cars and the EU wanted all cars deisel powered. The UK wants to have electric powered cars.


When did the EU want "all cars to be diesel powered"? I seem to remember the Blair government pushing it before further research changed things.

Besides which, regulations governing that are up to the UK whether we're in or out. And it hardly negates the EU's environmental and workers' rights benefits.



stockwellcat. said:


> Thats why Austria has gone into coalition with a far right party: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....could-hurt-europe-hockenos-opinion/index.html


Yes that was a pity. Especially since far right parties and sympathisers across the continent, and in the US, were energised by the Brexit vote and led in part to that situation.

I would like to have seen us make clear to these people that we don't support their tribal ideologies. But instead we implied that we did.

But it doesn't change the fact that the EU is an organisation that brings countries together. The far right, for whatever, mostly unpleasant reasons, want to split them apart.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> But it doesn't change the fact that the EU is an organisation that brings countries together. The far right, for whatever, mostly unpleasant reasons, want to split them apart.


The EU is divided anyway and has been well before Brexit and the Austrian elections etc. I'll leave that with you, but it is true. I am off to carry on my New Years Celebrations.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU is divided anyway and has been well before Brexit and the Austrian elections etc. I'll leave that with you, but it is true. I am off to carry on my New Years Celebrations.


Said he running out of arguments... gone to fill up with Hobgoblin... :Facepalm Once that runs dry too will be back...


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> gone to fill up with Hobgoblin... :Facepalm Once that runs dry too will be back...


How did you know? :Hilarious



> Said he running out of arguments...


Nah. Cannot be bothered debating the same the same things over and over again, it gets a bit boring. I don't do arguements, they annoy me (arguements that is) :Hilarious


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes but the world market is set to grow faster than the EU markets so why stay in a market that is going to grow slower than the rest of the world markets.


No one is stopping anyone dealing with all the countries in the world (well beside those dictatorships like North-Korea). We have lots of business with China, US etc. We just get a bit better deals in EU than otherwise. And EU is doing better now, well, apart from UK, which used to do very well before, but not anymore. Yet it is a very competitive country and should be doing best in EU. Go figure that.



stockwellcat. said:


> Well we got a cheap exit price £39 billion.
> And the EU countries in the Eastern block want to close the borders down and did during the migrant crisis.
> Not really. Deisel powered vehicles have caused more damage to the environment than petrol cars and the EU wanted all cars deisel powered. The UK wants to have electric powered cars. Thats why Austria has gone into coalition with a far right party: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/12/18/opinions/austria-government-could-hurt-europe-hockenos-opinion/index.html


Poland, Hungary and Tsecks want also to cut down the freedom of press, justice system and lots of other human rights. Do you think that they should UK the future direction? Yet they are very happy getting all the benefits from EU and do not want to leave. EU is just about to have it with Poland and aims at cutting it´s right, as defending democracy is one of the corner Stones of EU. Austria is still a democracy, and it´s latest election result ending a right wing party in the goverment is IMO not good at all, and Austrians should have learned their history a bit better. After all, the man with the bad moustace started from Austria. But maybe you have different opinion about all this, or don´t care, as long as leavers get support.

A question: are you really happy with the company May keeps nowadays, and if you are, why? Another question: if you think politics is boring, why show support to the ultra-right wing politics in some Eastern-European countries?


----------



## cheekyscrip

MrsZee said:


> No one is stopping anyone dealing with all the countries in the world (well beside those dictatorships like North-Korea). We have lots of business with China, US etc. We just get a bit better deals in EU than otherwise. And EU is doing better now, well, apart from UK, which used to do very well before, but not anymore. Yet it is a very competitive country and should be doing best in EU. Go figure that.
> 
> Poland, Hungary and Tsecks want also to cut down the freedom of press, justice system and lots of other human rights. Do you think that they should UK the future direction? Yet they are very happy getting all the benefits from EU and do not want to leave. EU is just about to have it with Poland and aims at cutting it´s right, as defending democracy is one of the corner Stones of EU. Austria is still a democracy, and it´s latest election result ending a right wing party in the goverment is IMO not good at all, and Austrians should have learned their history a bit better. After all, the man with the bad moustace started from Austria. But maybe you have different opinion about all this, or don´t care, as long as leavers get support.
> 
> A question: are you really happy with the company May keeps nowadays, and if you are, why? Another question: if you think politics is boring, why show support to the ultra-right wing politics in some Eastern-European countries?


This is what happens when Hobbits take on Hobgoblins.....:Turtle:Troll Bit like koala taking on grizzly:Wideyed Or Little Britain taking on The World....:Banghead


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well I see from the comments here that remainers are still living in LALA land believing that Brexit can just be stopped. Well the hard truth of it folk is this, Michel Barnier (the EU's Chief negotiator) has said if the UK did want to reverse it's decision it would have to be voted on by the other 27 remaining countries if it should be allowed to happen. I know we haven't left the EU yet but this is what has been said by the EU Negotiator and I think Tusk and Junker have said similar.

Now moving on. David Davis has told the EU this morning that the EU cannot cherrie pick what it wants from the UK as negotiations are set to restart behind the scenes on the New Relationship the UK will have with the EU which is due to be comepleted by March 2018 and then 3rd part will start which is the future trading relationship eg trade deal etc.

SKY NEWS









IRISH TIMES









THE GUARDIAN









BUSINESS INSIDER









I wonder if May reshuffles parliament if Rees Mogg will get on the front bench or negotiating team and if Boris will be moved into international trade or the Brexit negotiating team? We will see. It may well be just newspaper-soap news and fake news again ~ the reshuffle I mean.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> This is what happens when Hobbits take on Hobgoblins.....:Turtle:Troll Bit like koala taking on grizzly:Wideyed Or Little Britain taking on The World....:Banghead


:Yawn
:Finger


----------



## Arnie83

I suspect Davis is trying the bravado approach, but it does sound a bit silly.

We are the ones who are leaving and seeking a new trade deal, albeit a mutually beneficial one.

The EU will offer what it deems acceptable while maintaining the integrity of the EU single market. It won't choose from options that Davis puts on the table.

There is no free trade deal anywhere that I know of that includes services as comprehensively as goods, so for Davis to say that the EU would be 'cherry-picking' by excluding them from our new deal with the EU doesn't really stack up.

What Davis is actually saying, yet again, is that we want to leave but keep all the benefits. It isn't going to happen.


----------



## KittenKong

http://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/fox-nodeal-ministers_uk_5a3bc79ae4b06d1621b2589c























The only thing they have to show for Brexit is incorrectly blue passports.

It's going well isn't it!


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> It was a trade deal the UK signed up to not what the EU is today.


It's evolved and we've been part of the process into what it's involved into. You know through something called democratic process. A process which the UK being so influential that all other countries want to to it's bidding and trade with, would have no problem determining direction.

Amusing you use that as an argument for leaving considering what people voted for in the referendum is far different to reality. That means you should support changing direction and not leaving.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> That means you should support changing direction and not leaving.


Never. The UK is still leaving the EU regardless of what remainers think or try to do to thwart brexit. Yes I know about the new court case which is a waste of courts time. The one I am talking about is the UK never made the constitutional decision to leave the EU. They did. The Referedum was consitutional and voted through both houses of Parliament and the overwhelming vote by MP's to trigger article 50 in Parliament. The whole process was constitional. Remainers are hoping to nullify the vote. Sad, very sad and desparate behaviour in a last ditched attempt to overturn democracy.


----------



## Happy Paws2

There's so much of, he said and she said, on here again it's getting very silly


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Never. The UK is still leaving the EU regardless of what remainers think or try to do to thwart brexit. Yes I know about the new court case which is a waste of courts time. The one I am talking about is the UK never made the constitutional decision to leave the EU. They did. The Referedum was consitutional and voted through both houses of Parliament and the overwhelming vote by MP's to trigger article 50 in Parliament. The whole process was constitional. Remainers are hoping to nullify the vote. Sad, very sad and desparate behaviour.


Yep, and parliament can decide to stay at any time. Don't have to nullify any vote for that. Try again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Yep, and parliament can decide to stay. Don't have to nullify any vote for that. Try again.


Well thats what remainers are desparately trying to do by starting another court case. The High Court said they will consider the case on the 22nd December 2017. Doubt it will go far though. You try again.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Never. The UK is still leaving the EU regardless of what remainers think or try to do to thwart brexit. Yes I know about the new court case which is a waste of courts time. The one I am talking about is the UK never made the constitutional decision to leave the EU. They did. The Referedum was consitutional and voted through both houses of Parliament and the overwhelming vote by MP's to trigger article 50 in Parliament. The whole process was constitional. Remainers are hoping to nullify the vote. Sad, very sad and desparate behaviour in a last ditched attempt to overturn democracy.


What if the People change their minds before March next year?

I'm not saying that they will, but what if they did?

What would democracy require us to do?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> What if the People change their minds before March next year?
> 
> I'm not saying that they will, but what if they did?
> 
> What would democracy require us to do?


Hmm not answering this but the people of the United Kingdom as a whole spoke in June 2016. Enough said.

To many circles on this thread  just like the other thread(s).

Oh @KittenKong I know you want a Blue Passport  and that's why you keep going on about it. BTW I am not really interested in what colour the new passport will be. I do remember it was black before it was burgundy.

















Did you know you can get a cream British Passport already:








Only if you lose your passport on holiday or whilst living abroad


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> The people of the United Kingdom as a whole spoke in June 2016.


And it is now 2018 and the people of the not so united kingdom have never stopped speaking since

That's because no one has been given any real assurance of what's...


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Well thats what remainers are desparately trying to do by starting another court case. The High Court said they will consider the case on the 22nd December 2017. Doubt it will go far though. You try again.


You argue things change therefore people should be able to change minds. Then you argue a non-binding vote in the past is the be all and end all and should determine what happens regardless. Says it all about the leaver's shout of "take back control" and "Democracy" doesn't it.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Hmm not answering this but the people of the United Kingdom as a whole spoke in June 2016. Enough said.


I think your lack of answer is probably answer enough.

Many leavers point steadfastly to the supposed democratic legitimacy of the referendum but are not prepared to allow the People the chance to change their minds until it is too late.

Seems a little hypocritical to me.

But David Davis admitted a few days ago that no Brexit was still possible, so let's wait and see.


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> Well I see from the comments here that remainers are still living in LALA land believing that Brexit can just be stopped. Well the hard truth of it folk is this, Michel Barnier (the EU's Chief negotiator) has said if the UK did want to reverse it's decision it would have to be voted on by the other 27 remaining countries if it should be allowed to happen. I know we haven't left the EU yet but this is what has been said by the EU Negotiator and I think Tusk and Junker have said similar.
> Now moving on. David Davis has told the EU this morning that the EU cannot cherrie pick what it wants from the UK as negotiations are set to restart behind the scenes on the New Relationship the UK will have with the EU which is due to be comepleted by March 2018 and then 3rd part will start which is the future trading relationship eg trade deal etc.
> 
> I wonder if May reshuffles parliament if Rees Mogg will get on the front bench or negotiating team and if Boris will be moved into international trade or the Brexit negotiating team? We will see. It may well be just newspaper-soap news and fake news again ~ the reshuffle I mean.


You need maybe new spectacles, as a lot of the discussion is based on the bad news from the negotiations and the consequences of Brexit. Based on them many have started to doubt the decision they made, as they didn´t have much information then. Hence there is now discussion even about a new vote. But all derives from the facts that are surficing about Brexit. The only Lalaland is the country where hard wing Brexiteers live. No facts enter that land, no matter what.

Barnier stated the fact that if you want to reverse the decision, it needs to be voted, like any other decision. Barnier can´t decide that on his own, and neither can Junker or Tusk.

Davies saying anything about cherry picking is actually funny. But naturally he can say anything he wants, and tbh, a British politician saying something that is not true about EU is nothing new, the other way around would actually be news. But Davies can do all the cherry picking he wants, as long as he remembers that most fruit pickers are not British and elderly people like him might soon need to learn new skills, like cherry picking in the future, once you are out. 

Why is it so difficult to accept that most Brits didn´t have enough information about EU when you had the vote? And now that the more you know about the consequences of Brexit, the more worried most people become and wish they could choose again, once they have more facts about it. Surely that is a good thing for any decisionmaking? Honesty and facts instead of lies and false promises.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MrsZee said:


> Surely that is a good thing for any decisionmaking? Honesty and facts instead of lies and false promises.


Nobody has changed their minds even though remainers think they have. Sad really.

Yes a no deal could happen @Arnie83 but the UK would still leave on 29th March 2019. That's what David Davis ment not what the remainers have twisted it to mean.


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> Nobody has changed their minds even though remainers think they have. Sad really.
> 
> Yes a no deal could happen @Arnie83 but the UK would still leave on 29th March 2019. That's what David Davis ment not what the remainers have twisted it to mean.


Well, actually many have changed their minds. Had you read the thead earlier, you would have seen the links too. But *not all* have changed their minds, *just many*. The result would be to remain now.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questio...ns-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote-2/


----------



## stockwellcat.

MrsZee said:


> Well, actually many have changed their minds. Had you read the thead earlier, you would have seen the links too. But *not all* have changed their minds, *just many*. The result would be to remain now.
> 
> https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questio...ns-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote-2/


I hate to tell you the graph is from a survey of a select few people and is not current (13 February 2012 - 24 October 2017), it does not reflect the whole of the United Kingdom. Try again.

How can people have changed there minds from a survey done in 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 when the referendum was done on the 23rd June 2016. That link is inaccurate in many ways. The dates the survey data is from is years before the referendum took place.


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> I hate to tell you the graph is from a survey of a select few people and is not current, it does not reflect the whole of the United Kingdom. Try again.


Here are more links, they are easy to find:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...it-poll-which-suggests-public-regret-decision

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...mes-latest-theresa-may-bad-idea-a8000156.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ncreasingly-against-brexit-re-leavers-u-turn/

And where is your evidence to back your statement that "no one has changed their mind", or is it still the same that leavers just say anything they like without having to have a single fact to back their story?

And why this is important? In the end, who do you think will pick up the bill and pay for Brexit? Is it the rich ultra-right business people, who don´t need inner markets and who hate all regulations and taxes or is it the British tax payers and poor people? And please, if you have an opinion, include the facts to back it up.


----------



## KittenKong

Yep, People took out Payment Protection Insurance believing they would be covered in the event of illness and unemployment!

How's the narrow Brexit vote any different?

Shame there's no compensation for those mis-sold Brexit......


----------



## stockwellcat.

stockwellcat. said:


> I hate to tell you the graph is from a survey of a select few people and is not current (13 February 2012 - 24 October 2017), it does not reflect the whole of the United Kingdom. Try again.
> 
> How can people have changed there minds from a survey done in 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 when the referendum was done on the 23rd June 2016. That link is inaccurate in many ways. The dates the survey data is from is years before the referendum took place.


Again these links are to polls of select few people that read these news papers. Try again.

The YouGov survey mentioned in the Guardian newspaper was from a select few people. How many people equated to the 42% of respondents in there poll, I bet is it was nowhere near how many took part in the referendum?


> A YouGov survey found that only 42% of respondents


 Then there is a poll by readers of the times newspaper of which only 1,680 took part. These polls don't mean anything I am affraid.

Where's your facts that people have changed their minds as all you have shown me is out dated polls that mean nothing because they are newspaper polls from a select few people who read these newspapers. The poll that counted took place on the 23rd June 2016 and people where told that the results would be acted upon by the Prime Minister of the time David Cameron. He even stated that there would be no higher or lower margines so whoever wins won.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes a no deal could happen @Arnie83 but the UK would still leave on 29th March 2019. That's what David Davis ment not what the remainers have twisted it to mean.


I do check these things before posting them.

Speaking in Whitehall to think tank members David Davis said that agreement on Phase 1, and subsequent movement to Phase 2 meant "*there is less chance of no deal - and less chance of no Brexit."*

If he had just meant less chance of 'no deal', he probably wouldn't have added the second bit.

Nothing has been twisted, just quoted. Davis admitted there is still a chance of Brexit not happening.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I do check these things before posting them.
> 
> Speaking in Whitehall to think tank members David Davis said that agreement on Phase 1, and subsequent movement to Phase 2 meant "*there is less chance of no deal - and less chance of no Brexit."*
> 
> If he had just meant less chance of 'no deal', he probably wouldn't have added the second bit.
> 
> Nothing has been twisted, just quoted. Davis admitted there is still a chance of Brexit not happening.


Well this explains why Theresa May wants to reshuffle her cabinet and sideline David Davis.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Where's your facts that people have changed their minds as all you have shown me is out dated polls that mean nothing because they are newspaper polls from a select few people who read these newspapers. The poll that counted took place on the 23rd June 2016 and people where told that the results would be acted upon by the Prime Minister of the time David Cameron. He even stated that there would be no higher or lower margines so whoever wins won.


Funny that when parliament, not Cameron is one to make decisions. Referendums are non-binding and as already previously stated are simply opinion polls. Opinion polls which according to you should be ignored. Wait.. only as they do not state what you want. I know you'll ignore that point so let's change tact once again.. Advantages to leaving perhaps.. wait you've consistently failed in that regards as well.

Sums up UK leavers attitudes:


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Funny that when parliament, not Cameron is one to make decisions. Referendums are non-binding and as already previously stated are simply opinion polls. Opinion polls which according to you should be ignored. Wait.. only as they do not state what you want. I know you'll ignore that point so let's change tact once again.. Advantages to leaving perhaps.. wait you've consistently failed in that regards as well.


Advantages of leaving have been given to you many times in many other threads on this subject but you chose to ignore them. Well sorry old ground. Not going over it again as this is a new year. I look forwards not backwards.

An advantage for you which I know you know is unacceptable by your standards, Independence from the European Union.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I hate to tell you the graph is from a survey of a select few people and is not current (13 February 2012 - 24 October 2017), it does not reflect the whole of the United Kingdom. Try again.
> 
> How can people have changed there minds from a survey done in 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 when the referendum was done on the 23rd June 2016. That link is inaccurate in many ways. The dates the survey data is from is years before the referendum took place.


It's 62 separate surveys performed between those dates.

The latest 4, from March 2017 to October 2017 all show Remain ahead.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> It's 62 separate surveys performed between those dates.
> 
> The latest 4, from March 2017 to October 2017 all show Remain ahead.


Doesn't mean anything though.

Select few people take part in these surveys and I have never had a chance to take part in these polls nor have any of my friends or family or work colleagues. These polls are rigged and fixed.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Just to make a point @Arnie83 the UK was remaining in the EU until 5am ish on the 24th June 2016 (results day), then Leave started gaining ground. Nobody expected the result that happened. This was the poll that counted. Cameron said over and over again that it was a once in a generation/lifetime, the result would be acted upon, no second referendums and no margines will be put into place so which ever side wins would win no matter how large or small the difference was.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well this explains why Theresa May wants to reshuffle her cabinet and sideline David Davis.


It may do, though I suspect it's because Davis is hopeless at his job.

But it certainly explains why the likes of IDS, Redwood, Rees-Mogg, Bone etc are demanding with increasing hysteria that we should leave now. The more bad news that comes from the next stage of negotiations the more people will conclude that we really shouldn't be leaving at all, until the clamour becomes loud enough to force another referendum in the name of democracy.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Doesn't mean anything though.
> 
> Select few people take part in these surveys and I have never had a chance to take part in these polls nor have any of my friends or family or work colleagues. *These polls are rigged and fixed*.


Your evidence for that? Any at all?

And the one in the Telegraph that @MrsZee linked to? Why would the Brexit supporting Telegraph fix a poll showing that the majority don't want Breexit any more? In fact, given that it's a 5-poll average, they've been rigging an awful lot of polls!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Your evidence for that? Any at all?
> 
> And the one in the Telegraph that @MrsZee linked to? Why would the Brexit supporting Telegraph fix a poll showing that the majority don't want Breexit any more? In fact, given that it's a 5-poll average, they've been rigging an awful lot of polls!


Are you being serious that you believe a few thousand people that are selected to do newspaper polls and yougov polls represent the majority of the UK? Let's look at what the remain paper the Guardian stated that 1,600 odd people took part in the Times survey, not exactly a majority of UK people. They are fixed to what the paper wants to portray to there readers.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Just to make a point @Arnie83 the UK was remaining in the EU until 5am ish on the 24th June 2016 (results day), then Leave started gaining ground. Nobody expected the result that happened. This was the poll that counted. Cameron said over and over again that it was a once in a generation/lifetime, the result would be acted upon, no second referendums and no margines will be put into place so which ever side wins would win no matter how large or small the difference was.


Which brings me back to the question you refused to answer.

What does democracy demand of us if the People have clearly changed their minds?

Would it be democratic to ignore the current will of the majority? How could a vote over 2 years old - which it will be by the time the terms of Brexit are known - be considered more legitimate than the current will of the people?


----------



## stockwellcat.

If you want to go around in circles believing polls here's one for you:


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Are you being serious that you believe a few thousand people that are selected to do newspaper polls and yougov polls represent the majority of the UK? Let's look at what the remain paper the Guardian stated that 1,600 odd people took part in the Times survey, not exactly a majority of UK people. They are fixed to what the paper wants to portray to there readers.


Polls are representative, by definition. That's what I believe. Whether they are accurate representations of a national majority can only be determined by holding a referendum.

But when all polls point the same way, are you being serious by suggesting that they should be ignored?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> If you want to go around in circles believing polls here's one for you:
> View attachment 340482


The European data is irrelevant, but it's interesting to see how much the polls have shifted in favour of Remain since August.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Which brings me back to the question you refused to answer.
> 
> What does democracy demand of us if the People have clearly changed their minds?
> 
> Would it be democratic to ignore the current will of the majority? How could a vote over 2 years old - which it will be by the time the terms of Brexit are known - be considered more legitimate than the current will of the people?


But therr isn't a current will of the people. If we had a referendum everytime a newspaper poll was up for one side or the other there would be neverendums. Believe if or not politicians have a country to run.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The European data is irrelevant, but it's interesting to see how much the polls have shifted in favour of Remain since August.


Ah but EU polls do matter. The French want us out rather than stay in according to that poll.

I bet you if a poll was done next week it would be different from the polls I have seen from @MrsZee from October 2017 and would be back in favour for the UK leaving. An important event happened inbetween October 2017 and January 2018, phase 1 of the deal was agreed upon which would gain support for brexit. So again, if the polls have shifted again in your eyes this would warrant having another referendum (neverendum) because the UK majority now wants to leave as opposed to remain in October 2017?

The UK would be broke from holding continuous referendums based on newspaper polls.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> But therr isn't a current will of the people. If we had a referendum everytime a newspaper poll was up for one side or the other there would be neverendums. Believe if or not politicians have a country to run.


Yes there would, but fortunately no-one is suggesting such a thing. Merely that there is one more single referendum on the negotiated deal, before it's too late.

Using facts rather than misleading slogans on the side of a bus.

Because democracy demands that we do.

I think I'll curtail our discussion at this point if you don't mind.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Yes there would, but fortunately no-one is suggesting such a thing. Merely that there is one more single referendum on the negotiated deal, before it's too late.
> 
> Using facts rather than misleading slogans on the side of a bus.
> 
> Because democracy demands that we do.
> 
> I think I'll curtail our discussion at this point if you don't mind.


Another referendum won't happen. Here's why. TM is to remain in power until 2021 at least as the 1922 committee want her to see through Brexit. Jeezer has made it clear that labour will not hold a second referendum even though a minority of his MP's want one. So it's not going to happen.

TM is probably going to surround herself with Brexitier MP's when she does her reshuffle and have David Davis removed. If she does this the UK could be out of the EU in March 2018. The current format of Half Remainer MP's and Half Leave MP's in Cabinet isn't working, I even think Hammond might go.


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> Again these links are to polls of select few people that read these news papers. Try again.
> 
> The YouGov survey mentioned in the Guardian newspaper was from a select few people. How many people equated to the 42% of respondents in there poll, I bet is it was nowhere near how many took part in the referendum? Then there is a poll by readers of the times newspaper of which only 1,680 took part. These polls don't mean anything I am affraid.
> Where's your facts that people have changed their minds as all you have shown me is out dated polls that mean nothing because they are newspaper polls from a select few people who read these newspapers. The poll that counted took place on the 23rd June 2016 and people where told that the results would be acted upon by the Prime Minister of the time David Cameron. He even stated that there would be no higher or lower margines so whoever wins won.


Usually the polls are considered reliable enough if there are at least 1000 replies. How do you make out that they are from select people. Publishing a poll is different to making one.



Arnie83 said:


> It's 62 separate surveys performed between those dates.The latest 4, from March 2017 to October 2017 all show Remain ahead.


Will not mean anything, facts don´t mean anything. It is only when Brxit hits the wallets they will start meaning a lot for some people.



stockwellcat. said:


> Doesn't mean anything though. Select few people take part in these surveys and I have never had a chance to take part in these polls nor have any of my friends or family or work colleagues. These polls are rigged and fixed.


So because you personally have not been asked these questions it means they are not reliable. And when you are being asked, that is reliable. Interesting theory about reliable polls. Now I can understand why you consider all the polls rigged. Thanks for clearing that.



stockwellcat. said:


> If you want to go around in circles believing polls here's one for you:
> View attachment 340482


That was interesting, as the title was French don´t want Brits to stay in EU, not that most nations do want. Now I wonder why that was?

Here is another poll about Brexit: For me the interesting point was the fact that only 25% said they understand completely what leaving without a deal meant. More information is needed, surely? 
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-con...summary-Lord-Ashcroft-Polls-November-2017.pdf

And another stating that more and more Brits are regretting the decision.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...cision-to-leave-eu_uk_59e23060e4b0a52aca18492

Surely you can´t say that no one has changed their mind, even when you have not?

But how do you feel about other analysis? Here are some more links. Do you think they are true? If not, may I ask what is true to you? 
Another piece of news from Davis, whom you quoted too:
http://www.cityam.com/278062/davis-brexit-admission-gives-remainers-new-hope
""As David Davis himself once said, if a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."

This is about job losses: 
https://www.express.co.uk/finance/c...rise-fall-brexit-IHS-Markit-manufacturing-PMI

Please, could you show yours numbers, where it states how much UK benefits from Brexit, as otherwise this becomes a bit one sided conversation?


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> Nobody has changed their minds even though remainers think they have.


Why are you professing to know more than what the newspapers are reporting they know. How do you support/justify/add credence to your claims?

Or have you simply 'insider information' and are, therefore, prohibited from referencing your sources?

Once upon a time Britain had something. Today it doesn't know what it has. Apart from the utter bloody chaos your government has caused.

And you've bloody well paid and supported them to do it too.:Facepalm



stockwellcat. said:


> I have never had a chance to take part in these polls. These polls are rigged and fixed.


Like the referendum then. Rigged in favour of 'Brexiteers', because I never had the chance to take part. As didn't many others.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> Why are you professing to know more than what the newspapers are reporting they know. How do you support/justify/add credence to your claims?
> 
> Or have you simply 'insider information' and are, therefore, prohibited from referencing your sources?
> 
> Once upon a time Britain had something. Today it doesn't know what it has. Apart from the utter bloody chaos your government has caused.
> 
> And you've bloody well paid and supported them to do it too.:Facepalm
> 
> Like the referendum then. Rigged in favour of 'Brexiteers', because I never had the chance to take part. As didn't many others.


Surveys done in newspapers mean naff, they aren't reliable and don't represent the majority of people. Research companies randomly select people to participate in yougov and newspaper polls. They are the most unreliable way of putting across how people feel as they aren't accurate. I see one of the links goes to MP Chukka a moaner's twitter page where this rubbish that people have changed their minds has come from hence why remainers have jumped on the bandwagon with this.

I have read into Theresa May's ressuffle and notice 5 people are in for the sack and some Brexitiers are being moved to the front bench. Interesting.

Regarding polling there has been no significant change to justify holding another referendum.

Back to what you are suggesting that people have changed their minds, proof please as yougov and newspaper polls are not reliable.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> What does democracy demand of us if the People have clearly changed their minds?


What if they change their minds again , what if it 52% remain and 48% leave then that wouldn't be democracy according to Remainers. Best of three, perhaps?

If there is to be another referendum then campaigners will have to do more to push for one. .


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> Or have you simply 'insider information' and are, therefore, prohibited from referencing your sources?


Maybe I do....Maybe I don't....You will never know.



> Like the referendum then. Rigged in favour of 'Brexiteers', because I never had the chance to take part. As didn't many others.


The referendum wasn't rigged. We almost stayed in the EU, until around 5am on the 24th June 2016 when the results changed. Tell me how that is rigged.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> What if they change their minds again


Cameron decided to hold a referendum - for party political reasons - and I think there should be one more vote, based on the facts (see below) before an irrevocable move is made.

After that; well, as a sovereign nation we always have - and have had - the right to leave the EU. Parliament can, at any time, vote to leave.

I would then leave the decision to them, as proposed in their General Election manifesto. (Although I would first like to see a Parliament elected via proportional representation rather than our plainly undemocratic FPTP system.)



kimthecat said:


> what if it 52% remain and 48% leave then that wouldn't be democracy according to Remainers. Best of three, perhaps?


Why wouldn't 52 - 48 be democracy according to Remainers?

It wasn't the closeness of the vote that annoyed me (though it is very silly to make major constitutional change on a simple majority); it was the fact that the referendum was won by those whose lies convinced the most people.

For me, true democracy requires truth disseminated to the all the people.



kimthecat said:


> If there is to be another referendum then campaigners will have to do more to push for one. .


I quite agree. We're not there yet. But if the polls consistently show hardening support for calling it all off - which I think they very well may unless the negotiations surprise me (which they also may!) - then I think the demands may become irresistible, regardless of the protestations of those who don't like the idea.

It really is impossible to cite the Will of the People as a pro-Brexit argument, and then dismiss what the People are obviously telling you. And there is surely no-one who doesn't appreciate that saying 'polls are just polls' is anything other than an attempt to deny the democratic process.[/QUOTE]


----------



## stockwellcat.

> And there is surely no-one who doesn't appreciate that saying 'polls are just polls' is anything other than an attempt to deny the democratic process.


Well that's interesting.
This is exactly what @Goblin has been doing since the 24th June 2016 because he didn't like the result (saying polls are polls) and many remainers have been doing since the said date thus trying to deny leave voters the democratic process that was voted for .

Newspaper polls are very different and do not refelect democracy or politics or the majority of peoples opinions @Arnie83.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> Surveys done in newspapers mean naff, they aren't reliable and don't represent the majority of people. Research companies randomly select people to participate in yougov and newspaper polls. They are the most unreliable way of putting across how people feel as they aren't accurate. I see one of the links goes to MP Chukka a moaner's twitter page where this rubbish that people have changed their minds has come from hence why remainers have jumped on the bandwagon with this.
> I have read into Theresa May's ressuffle and notice 5 people are in for the sack and some Brexitiers are being moved to the front bench. Interesting.
> Regarding polling there has been no significant change to justify holding another referendum.
> Back to what you are suggesting that people have changed their minds, proof please as yougov and newspaper polls are not reliable.


Oh FFS. Who's pulling your strings? Someone must be. You condemn polls and you condemn the papers and you treat people with contempt. Yet you still refuse to offer anything in evidence to support the notions that have been put in your head.



stockwellcat. said:


> Maybe I do....Maybe I don't....You will never know.
> The referendum wasn't rigged. We almost stayed in the EU, until around 5am on the 24th June 2016 when the results changed. Tell me how that is rigged.


Oh FFS. I think I've got a good idea who filled your head with your thoughts. Have no fear of that.
The referendum, old chum, was not an accurate reflection of the people, because many of the people did not get the chance to have their vote. You evidently or conveniently appear to forget that fact.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> Oh FFS. Who's pulling your strings? Someone must be. You condemn polls and you condemn the papers and you treat people with contempt. Yet you still refuse to offer anything in evidence to support the notions that have been put in your head.
> 
> Oh FFS. I think I've got a good idea who filled your head with your thoughts. Have no fear of that.
> The referendum, old chum, was not an accurate reflection of the people, because many of the people did not get the chance to have their vote. You evidently or conveniently appear to forget that fact.


Said my piece now after certain people trying to stop me. If it bothers you that much vote me as horrid member of the week again.

No one pulling my strings here. I am no ones puppet. Now back to the real world for me good by lala land.


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> Oh FFS. Who's pulling your strings? Someone must be. You condemn polls and you condemn the papers and you treat people with contempt.


To be fair , both sides so to speak have been saying the same things since Day 1 and condemning polls. I'm sure the polls said remainers would win at the time.



> The referendum, old chum, was not an accurate reflection of the people, because many of the people did not get the chance to have their vote. You evidently or conveniently appear to forget that fact.


 I know this has been mentioned before but can you remind me which people again , ? I thought with referendums and GEs , the same rules of eligibility apply?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong 

He doesnt seem keen !

https://www.ft.com/content/81219298-ef13-11e7-b220-857e26d1aca4
Boris Johnson will resist attempts to move him out of the Foreign Office, his allies said, after reports he might be given a lead role in delivering Brexit by Theresa May in an upcoming reshuffle of her ministers. The prime minister needs to fill the hole in her cabinet left by the sacking of Damian Green, the Cabinet Office minister and first secretary of state, before Christmas. But she may shake up her cabinet further to give her government fresh momentum. Allies of Mr Johnson said on Monday that he was "very happy indeed at the Foreign Office" and had no interest in moving to another department in Whitehall.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> Said my piece now after certain people trying to stop me. If it bothers you that much vote me as horrid member of the week again.
> 
> No one pulling my strings here. I am no ones puppet. Now back to the real world for me good by lala land.


Horrid member of the week is, and always has been, a fun thread. I'm not going to taint the thoroughly good nature of that thread by submitting the idea you might be a government stooge and, therefore, truly deserve the nomination of really, really, horrible and can't be bloody well trusted on this forum member of the week.

Now, I'm not quite sure what map you've been studying, but to my knowledge, this Lala land you speak of, is not on any compass point I'm familiar with.



kimthecat said:


> To be fair , both sides so to speak have been saying the same things since Day 1 and condemning polls. I'm sure the polls said remainers would win at the time.
> 
> I know this has been mentioned before but can you remind me which people again , ? I thought with referendums and GEs , the same rules of eligibility apply?


Countless expats, including myself, were denied their say in the EU referendum because postal votes either went missing or failed to arrive.
It's all been a complete and utter **** up from start to.....well, we haven't yet reached the finish line, so let's just hope that won't be a complete and utter **** up either.

That's if we reach it at all, that is.:Wacky


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Advantages of leaving have been given to you many times in many other threads on this subject but you chose to ignore them. Well sorry old ground. Not going over it again as this is a new year. I look forwards not backwards.


Haven't ignored them, you've simply diverted away to "we won the referendum" when you've been unable to back up those reasonings when confronted with facts and reality.



> An advantage for you which I know you know is unacceptable by your standards, Independence from the European Union.


Another example I'm not ignoring, it's one you cannot actually support using actual reality.


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> @KittenKong
> 
> He doesnt seem keen !
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/81219298-ef13-11e7-b220-857e26d1aca4
> Boris Johnson will resist attempts to move him out of the Foreign Office, his allies said, after reports he might be given a lead role in delivering Brexit by Theresa May in an upcoming reshuffle of her ministers. The prime minister needs to fill the hole in her cabinet left by the sacking of Damian Green, the Cabinet Office minister and first secretary of state, before Christmas. But she may shake up her cabinet further to give her government fresh momentum. Allies of Mr Johnson said on Monday that he was "very happy indeed at the Foreign Office" and had no interest in moving to another department in Whitehall.


Is that any surprise? He knows what a poisoned chalice Brexit is when you cannot blame anyone else in terms of long term political survival. At the moment he and Gove can blame May and D.D. On the front line he cannot blame others and his scapegoating experience will not be of use.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> @KittenKong
> 
> He doesnt seem keen !
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/81219298-ef13-11e7-b220-857e26d1aca4
> Boris Johnson will resist attempts to move him out of the Foreign Office, his allies said, after reports he might be given a lead role in delivering Brexit by Theresa May in an upcoming reshuffle of her ministers. The prime minister needs to fill the hole in her cabinet left by the sacking of Damian Green, the Cabinet Office minister and first secretary of state, before Christmas. But she may shake up her cabinet further to give her government fresh momentum. Allies of Mr Johnson said on Monday that he was "very happy indeed at the Foreign Office" and had no interest in moving to another department in Whitehall.


I had to laugh when I saw this comment:


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> Countless expats, including myself, were denied their say in the EU referendum because postal votes either went missing or failed to arrive.
> It's all been a complete and utter **** up from start to.....well, we haven't yet reached the finish line, so let's just hope that won't be a complete and utter **** up either.


 I hope they investigated what went wrong . That's not to say that all ex pats would have voted remain though . I think if they have another ref the voting demographic could have changed and may affect the outcome . Younger ones now eligible to vote and older ones might have passed on .

@KittenKong :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> Is that any surprise? He knows what a poisoned chalice Brexit is when you cannot blame anyone else in terms of long term political survival. At the moment he and Gove can blame May and D.D. On the front line he cannot blame others and his scapegoating experience will not be of use.


Londoners say you shouldn't underestimate Boris . 
He comes over as a big buffoon but he has cunning and ambition , he's managed to survive this far and he really wants to be PM .


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> Londoners say you shouldn't underestimate Boris .
> He comes over as a big buffoon but he has cunning and ambition , he's managed to survive this far and he really wants to be PM .


I agree, that is why he will not want to be in a position where he doesn't have a preplanned scapegoat when Brexit goes wrong and doesn't achieve anything he promised.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well that's interesting.
> This is exactly what @Goblin has been doing since the 24th June 2016 because he didn't like the result (saying polls are polls) and many remainers have been doing since the said date thus trying to deny leave voters the democratic process that was voted for .
> 
> Newspaper polls are very different and do not refelect democracy or politics or the majority of peoples opinions @Arnie83.





Arnie83 said:


> I think I'll curtail our discussion at this point if you don't mind.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Well that's interesting.
> This is exactly what @Goblin has been doing since the 24th June 2016 because he didn't like the result (saying polls are polls) and many remainers have been doing since the said date thus trying to deny leave voters the democratic process that was voted for .


You are really desparate. Referendums are opinion polls in the UK. This was known and acknowledged before the referendum. Democracy is not a single vote, democracy allows the ability for people to change their minds. Especially when people are able to be informed about what their vote actually means. We leave and how long before we try to rejoin or form something similar elsewhere as other countries are doing around the world. Trouble is it will never be as good as we have at present.



kimthecat said:


> What if they change their minds again , what if it 52% remain and 48% leave then that wouldn't be democracy according to Remainers. Best of three, perhaps?


Actually according to Farage.. why not. He already stated a close result wouldn't be the end of it before the results came in. Changed his tune after though. Remember that 2nd referendum petition immediately after the referendum? Remember how it was actually started by someone supporting leave before the result was known? Of course the other solution is to actually make any future referendum binding wouldn't it 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eu-referendum-was-only-advisory-a7401151.html

Of course it would be interesting if leavers could actually use factual arguments to provide advantages to leaving if there was another referendum. Especially as the leave campaign promises have been proven false. I'm fine with parliament simply protecting the country from damage without another referendum. Would take more courage than most politicians have though. A lot of the reasons for voting leave could be addressed without leaving after all.

Once again this mess is due to Cameron trying to shut a minority in his party up without contemplating just how disastrous it would be for the country.


----------



## kimthecat

did these two have the same dad ? 
:Hilarious


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> did these two have the same dad ?
> :Hilarious


Of course not, silly.

Just remove the silly hat, the spectacles and give the beard a decent trim and I think you'll find it's the same bloke....

Moonlighting.


----------



## KittenKong

Not Brexit related but interesting to see how rail fares differ in other countries.

A Tory MP, don't remember who, actually defended the annual huge price hikes arguing not many of his constituents are rail travelers so why should they subsidise the rail industry and not the rail passengers? Typical Tory point of view with countless other examples.

Note- I despite the term, "Customers" which has been a privatisation favourite. Won't be long before the Doctors surgery and hospitals will be addressing patients as, "Customers".


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> What if they change their minds again , what if it 52% remain and 48% leave then that wouldn't be democracy according to Remainers. Best of three, perhaps?
> 
> If there is to be another referendum then campaigners will have to do more to push for one. .


The referendum was gerrymandered, 3 million people were denied a vote. Only 37% of electorate voted for Brexit, 26% of the entire population.


----------



## cheekyscrip

The worst of it - when people voted they were told they would be better off, safer and 350 mln for NHS. It was all lies.,
They were duped. Some are now waking up to the truth. 
So if the real consequences of Brexit are no longer best kept secrets of DD - the time for more educated vote?
Like - do you want to be poorer, less safe and more limited for the sake of few selected privileged to make money on privatization of NHS and so on?
Let’s see the results then...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You are really desparate.


Nah I'm not desparate. I am quite happy with the Brexit process thus far. It's progressing nicely and the real nitty gritty is about to start.



> *Referendums are opinion polls in the UK*.


See @Arnie83 just like what I quoted from what you said.

Post 555


> And there is surely no-one who doesn't appreciate that saying 'polls are just polls' is anything other than an *attempt to deny the democratic process*


Exactly what @Goblin wants and many remainers want as well.

I rest my case and leave this thread but just wanted to point out that I saw @Goblin's reply and this is why I replied.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 340554


Crikey, if I earned that monthly, I;d think the fare was small change, They can't reckon they earn that annually can they? 

approx 100miles per day for £19.05


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> The worst of it - when people voted they were told they would be better off, safer and 350 mln for NHS. It was all lies.,
> They were duped. Some are now waking up to the truth.
> So if the real consequences of Brexit are no longer best kept secrets of DD - the time for more educated vote?
> Like - do you want to be poorer, less safe and more limited for the sake of few selected privileged to make money on privatization of NHS and so on?
> Let's see the results then...


This letter was in the pro brexit Sunday Times. I think a lot of people are angry they were duped into voting leave. I think the ones coming out & admitting it are very brave. Maybe if more do we can stop this madness Cheeky 












stockwellcat. said:


> Nah I'm not desparate. I am quite happy with the Brexit process thus far. It's progressing nicely and the real nitty gritty is about to start.
> 
> See @Arnie83 just like what I quoted from what you said.


So you don't care about our NHS?


----------



## noushka05

Another good graphic on the gerrymandered ref.


----------



## noushka05

Powerful piece on why the people of Swansea are changing their minds & why we should be given a final say now the facts are becoming clear.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> So you don't care about our NHS?


Oh cricky.
The NHS was in a mess long before Brexit, try from the last Labour Government who keep writing them bouncing cheques and selling parts of the NHS off to private firms. The NHS is a different issue and not connected with Brexit. Yes there has been a reduction in EU nurses but I want to point out when I have been to hospital I have seen nurses from outside of the EU and have done for years (like from Pakistan, India and Africa) and not seen any Nurses from any European Countries. So IMO this topic trying to link Brexit to the NHS is farcical and the banta over stated.

Of course I care about the NHS. I used to work in the NHS.

The NHS is struggling because they where left unaccountable for its own finances. My local hospital went into special measures on 11th December 2017 because of it overspending and nothing else.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh cricky.
> The NHS was in a mess long before Brexit, try from the last Labour Government who keep writing them bouncing cheques and selling parts of the NHS off to private firms. The NHS is a different political issue and not connected with Brexit. Yes there has been a reduction in EU nurses but I want to point out when I have been to hospital I have seen nurses from outside of the EU and have done for years (like from Pakistan, India and Africa) and not seen any Nurses from any European Countries. So IMO this topic trying to link Brexit to the NHS is farcical and the banta over stated.


That's right blame labour:Hilarious Amazing how the tories magic money tree produced a £1bn bung for the DUP though. Amazing how they can find millions of ££ to wipe out our badgers. Can afford to give tax breaks for the wealthiest & corporations. Can find billions for brexit - but theres no money left to spend on our NHS. Please try thinking critically SWC. Look objectively at what _real _experts are saying.

Yes labour did some bad things, but our NHS was in surplus until the Tories health & social care act 2012. Now its in MASSIVE deficit. This is the NHS today.


















Deliberately underfunded & forced to make massive cuts. Its a demolition by stealth, they are _deliberately_ making it fail so they can fully privatise it. Noam Chomsky: _That's the standard technique of privatization: defund, make sure things don't work, people get angry, you hand it over to private capital._

The tories have brought our NHS to its knees in their quest to introduce the American style, insurance based health care system - Brexit will be the final nail in the coffin. Its already having a terrible impact even before we've left. And do you know what the tories will say? They will say we're sorry the NHS is gone but brexit was the 'will of the people'. They will blame people like *you* who voted leave SWC. That's how tories get away with everything - by scapegoating.

This is the Lancet study SWC.









I'm with the majority of the people who took part in this poll >>>

*ll* 30 Dec 2017

_It's looking increasingly likely that #*Brexit* is going to cost us the #*NHS*. 
Which is most important to you? 
Vote and RT for better sample._

08%Brexit

92%NHS

3,534 votes•Final results


----------



## stockwellcat.

@noushka05 Kings College Hospital went into Special Measures on the 11th December 2017 because of the following reason:


> Ian Dalton, chief executive of NHS Improvement, said: "The financial situation at King's has deteriorated very seriously over recent months and we have now placed the trust in special measures to maximise the amount of scrutiny and support that it receives.
> 
> "It is not acceptable for individual organisations to run up such significant deficits when the majority of the sector is working extremely hard to hit their financial plans, and in many cases have made real progress."
> 
> NHS Improvement said it had agreed with the King's board earlier this year a budget deficit of £38m for 2017-18.
> 
> In late October, the body said, the trust formally worsened this prediction to £70m, and last week re-forecast an end-year deficit of £92m.
> 
> "As an organisation, King's own prediction for its deficit has worsened by £54m, and more than doubled, within months".


Proof that it is down to mis-management of finances not Brexit.

I am not sticking up for the Tories but they have pumped more money into the NHS than Labour ever did (swc puts on metal helmet and ducks underneath table as he awaits noushkas reply).


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> @noushka05 Kings College Hospital went into Special Measures on the 11th December 2017 because of the following reason:
> Proof that it is down to mis-management of finances not Brexit.


That has nothing to do with brexit & everything to do with the tories 'restructuring', underfunding & cuts.

The Lancet study was specifically on the impact of brexit however.
*
Brexit* *'potentially catastrophic' for the* *NHS*, *Lancet* *study claims 
*


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-nurses-doctors-migrant-workers-a7971911.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> That has nothing to do with brexit & everything to do with the tories 'restructuring', underfunding & cuts.
> 
> The Lancet study was specifically on the impact of brexit however.
> *
> Brexit* *'potentially catastrophic' for the* *NHS*, *Lancet* *study claims
> *
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-nurses-doctors-migrant-workers-a7971911.html


Actually it's nothing to do with the Tories either because if you read it, it is to do with over spending when other hospitals are working hard to meet there targets. I suggest you read the quote again (post 583 I mean).


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Nah I'm not desparate. I am quite happy with the Brexit process thus far. It's progressing nicely and the real nitty gritty is about to start.


Yet cannot provide reasoning for leaving which cannot be torn apart by the application of facts.



> I rest my case and leave this thread but just wanted to point out that I saw @Goblin's reply and this is why I replied.


No, referendum was an opinion poll. Nothing denying democratic process. You "won that". Government should act on that. Polling highlighted many areas which could be dealt with. Do not have to leave the EU to do so though. Goal of UK referendums would have been fulfilled without damaging the country.

You leave this thread at least once every week.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Actually it's nothing to do with the Tories either because if you read it, it is to do with over spending when other hospitals are working hard to meet there targets. I suggest you read the quote again (post 583 I mean).


The art of obfuscation I notice you don't have anything to say about that Lancet study SWC


----------



## noushka05

@stockwellcat This tweet was made for you 

*James O'Brien*‏Verified [email protected]*mrjamesob* 5h5 hours ago 

Remember. The NHS crisis is not the fault of politicians who've been in power for seven years, inherited a record patient satisfaction level &
has been repeatedly warned of a £30 billion shortfall.
It is the fault of doctors, nurses, immigrants & Gordon Brown.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> @stockwellcat This tweet was made for you
> 
> *James O'Brien*‏Verified [email protected]*mrjamesob* 5h5 hours ago
> 
> Remember. The NHS crisis is not the fault of politicians who've been in power for seven years, inherited a record patient satisfaction level &
> has been repeatedly warned of a £30 billion shortfall.
> It is the fault of doctors, nurses, immigrants & Gordon Brown.


Of course it is. Gordon Brown was also personally responsible for the global economic crash in much the same way Tony Blair unilaterally went to war in Iraq without US involvement (he of course was Bush's puppet as May is to Trump etc. etc.)

Readers of papers like the Sun, the Daily Heil and Brexcess may believe that, just as they believe Brexit will bring wealth and prosperity for all.......


----------



## Arnie83

There's a lot of talk among the Tory Brexiteers of how the UK is going to be a 'beacon of free trade', with all the free trade deals making up for what we lose as we leave the EU.

I was wondering whether people think that 'free trade' is possible if the regulations in one country are more favourable than those in the other. E.g. if we were to have more stringent health & safety regulations in the workplace than our 'free trade' partner, thereby pushing up our costs and prices, would that be fair? I think not. 

The same with production standards. And presumably with state aid subsidising companies and lowering their costs.

There can't be 'free trade' unless businesses operate on a level playing field, can there?

Does that mean that we would need to ensure that we had regulatory equivalence with the countries with whom we want 'free trade'?

And isn't that exactly what the Brexiteers are complaining about when it comes to the EU? We want to leave, they say, so that we are free to diverge. But only to converge with someone else? How then are we 'taking back control'?

Just a thought.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> There's a lot of talk among the Tory Brexiteers of how the UK is going to be a 'beacon of free trade', with all the free trade deals making up for what we lose as we leave the EU.
> 
> I was wondering whether people think that 'free trade' is possible if the regulations in one country are more favourable than those in the other. E.g. if we were to have more stringent health & safety regulations in the workplace than our 'free trade' partner, thereby pushing up our costs and prices, would that be fair? I think not.
> 
> The same with production standards. And presumably with state aid subsidising companies and lowering their costs.
> 
> There can't be 'free trade' unless businesses operate on a level playing field, can there?
> 
> Does that mean that we would need to ensure that we had regulatory equivalence with the countries with whom we want 'free trade'?
> 
> And isn't that exactly what the Brexiteers are complaining about when it comes to the EU? We want to leave, they say, so that we are free to diverge. But only to converge with someone else? How then are we 'taking back control'?
> 
> Just a thought.


Indeed. May's recent panicking over the Obama invite to the next "Royal" wedding is clear evidence the UK hasn't taken back control but has given the US more control over the UK.

If the UK have taken back control it should be argued the UK should stand up to the US as well as other countries if it's to become a global superpower, (in reality a fragmented little England with very few friends left).

And people thought the EU were bad?!

At least they never got the UK involved in wars like the good old US have.


----------



## Zaros

KittenKong said:


> Indeed. May's recent panicking over the Obama invite to the next "Royal" wedding is clear evidence the UK hasn't taken back control but has given the US more control over the UK.
> If the UK have taken back control it should be argued the UK should stand up to the US as well as other countries if it's to become a global superpower, (in reality a fragmented little England with very few friends left).
> And people thought the EU were bad?!
> At least they never got the UK involved in wars like the good old US have.


The U.S is good at war. Over the decades, they've had lots and lots of practice. But they've only ever been good at picking on little countries. Britain is a little country. So to stop the bully picking on her, she feels it necessary to cosy up to the tyrant.


----------



## Guest

Arnie83 said:


> There's a lot of talk among the Tory Brexiteers of how the UK is going to be a 'beacon of free trade', with all the free trade deals making up for what we lose as we leave the EU.
> 
> I was wondering whether people think that 'free trade' is possible if the regulations in one country are more favourable than those in the other. E.g. if we were to have more stringent health & safety regulations in the workplace than our 'free trade' partner, thereby pushing up our costs and prices, would that be fair? I think not.
> 
> The same with production standards. And presumably with state aid subsidising companies and lowering their costs. There can't be 'free trade' unless businesses operate on a level playing field, can there?
> Does that mean that we would need to ensure that we had regulatory equivalence with the countries with whom we want 'free trade'?
> And isn't that exactly what the Brexiteers are complaining about when it comes to the EU? We want to leave, they say, so that we are free to diverge. But only to converge with someone else? How then are we 'taking back control'?Just a thought.


UK will be a country for cheap labour and cheap products, which you can sell outside EU and other countries with strict consumer/enviromental laws. Naturally all the dictators of the world woul be very welcome too, as no one would ask where the money comes from. Companies wouldn´t need to pay taxes either, as teh govermen wouldn´t need to pay for NHS or other big public spendors. All will be private. It will indeed be like the good old days. No wonder some want to leave EU without any deal, as that situation is something even Murdoch would only dare to dream, not say aloud.

Free trade deals indeed. Does anyone even remember anymore Grenfell towers and the reasons it burnt so fast?



KittenKong said:


> Indeed. May's recent panicking over the Obama invite to the next "Royal" wedding is clear evidence the UK hasn't taken back control but has given the US more control over the UK. If the UK have taken back control it should be argued the UK should stand up to the US as well as other countries if it's to become a global superpower, (in reality a fragmented little England with very few friends left).
> 
> And people thought the EU were bad?! At least they never got the UK involved in wars like the good old US have.


Good point, and I´d like to see how Brits would have reacted has e.g Barnier or Juncker said that Harry can´t invite anyone he wants to his wedding? What is going to happen about that By the way, did he get the permission or not?


----------



## Goblin

Didn't want to turn a thread into another Brexit one but I did find https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/has-anyone-filled-in-a-c88-form.469892/ to be interesting as it shows what the leavers so called "reduction of red-tape" may mean for people if the UK is outside the EU.


----------



## KittenKong

MrsZee said:


> Good point, and I´d like to see how Brits would have reacted has e.g Barnier or Juncker said that Harry can´t invite anyone he wants to his wedding? What is going to happen about that By the way, did he get the permission or not?


I don't know. I'd like to think Prince Harry would tell May where to go. This would certainly bring rare respect towards a member of that family from me if he does. I won't hold my breath though.

Weren't current and former Tory PMs invited to William and Catherine's wedding but not Blair and Brown? Says it all.....


----------



## KittenKong

Welcome to Tory Britain. Before the formal Brexit too.

Make anyone proud this? What a glorious nation!


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Welcome to Tory Britain. Before the formal Brexit too.
> 
> Make anyone proud this? What a glorious nation!
> 
> View attachment 340639


Where's the link to that ridiculous claim?


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Where's the link to that ridiculous claim?


GIYF - I believe the graph is based on the numbers in this UNICEF report:

https://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/IWP_2017_09.pdf


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Where's the link to that ridiculous claim?


UNICEF.

Welcome to tory Britain - one of the wealthiest countries on the planet.

https://foodfoundation.org.uk/new-evidence-of-child-food-insecurity-in-the-uk/
_
By either of these measures the UK is one of, if not the, worst performing nations in the European Union.
_


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> GIYF - I believe the graph is based on the numbers in this UNICEF report:
> 
> https://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/IWP_2017_09.pdf


Doesn't seem to fit the figures on your link


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> UNICEF.
> 
> Welcome to tory Britain - one of the wealthiest countries on the planet.
> 
> https://foodfoundation.org.uk/new-evidence-of-child-food-insecurity-in-the-uk/
> _
> By either of these measures the UK is one of, if not the, worst performing nations in the European Union.
> _


Probably why they're so hell bent on leaving the EU. It'll, "No longer be a problem".

Typical of them. No unemployed because they're not in the figures. Hospital wards closed because people no longer get ill to name other typical examples.

Surely even Brexiteers should find this despicable seeing most suffering are, "British".....


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Probably why they're so hell bent on leaving the EU.


Absolutely. Disaster capitalists & tax dodgers saw brexit as an opportunity to plunder this country. We're heading for austerity on steroids.


----------



## rona

That isn't a UNICEF graph and doesn't reflect what's on the UNICEF site


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Doesn't seem to fit the figures on your link


Yes it does - I read the appendices, and the graph matches the data perfectly.  Wouldn't have posted it otherwise.


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> Yes it does - I read the appendices, and the graph matches the data perfectly.  Wouldn't have posted it otherwise.


Not the information I read, it also leaves out massive other bits of information

Normal on here though. pick the bits that back up something bad about the UK.

If you lived in some of the African nations, they might have something to moan about. 
By all criteria used, I'm living in absolute poverty


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Not the information I read, it also leaves out massive other bits of information


It's a graphical representation of a sub-data set. Of course it's not going to contain all the information in the report. You'd need an n-dimensional graphing tool to even _approach _doing that (something I helped programme as part of my BSc), and comprehending it would be beyond most mortals (my grasp of it started to get rather hazy after n5  ).

But the figures it does contain are spot on what is in the UNICEF report.


----------



## FeelTheBern

stockwellcat. said:


> So. I don't owe you or no one an excuse or an apology.


Yes you do. Double negative!


----------



## Happy Paws2

This thread is like


----------



## Zaros

rona said:


> Normal on here though. pick the bits that back up something bad about the UK.
> 
> If you lived in some of the African nations, they might have something to moan about.


The government make the country what it is. Government. Not the people. :Banghead

_'I love the country but I can't stand the scene' _Leonard Cohen. (Democracy)

Although Cohen was referring to America, he might just as easily have been writing about Britain in its present state/situation.

But we don't live in Africa, and if you're attempting to apply that view as some form of harsh consolation, shame on you. That's a very unsympathetic perspective and one that is void of any or all compassion.
There is no comfort to be found in poverty or hunger. Just varying degrees of misery and suffering.


----------



## noushka05

rona said:


> Not the information I read, it also leaves out massive other bits of information
> 
> Normal on here though. pick the bits that back up something bad about the UK.
> 
> If you lived in some of the African nations, they might have something to moan about.
> *By all criteria used, I'm living in absolute poverty*


I doubt that very much Rona, I think you just like to plead poverty. I think you're a bit older than I am, but our generations have been extremely lucky - the young generation, those who rely on benefits (most of whom are in work), the disabled have been absolutely hammered by tory austerity. Its now often a choice for them between paying the rent and eating. That's real poverty. (We've paid our mortgage off & I'm sure you once said on here you'd almost paid yours off?) What a sad state of affairs when we've even got nurses & members of the police force struggling to make ends meet because of lack of social/affordable housing & forced to pay extortionate rents in the private sector & the tories have even capped their pay. ( I think out of the EU & under a hard right tory regime who will inflict the hardest austerity on us, our NHS Americanized, many more of us may soon find out what 'real' poverty feels like though - including you & I. We may have to sell our homes if we need medical treatment, even people with health insurance go bankrupt in the USA).










*
Homelessness in England rises by 75% among vulnerable groups 
The number of homeless cases involving someone suffering from a mental or physical illness has skyrocketed since 2010*

https://www.theguardian.com/society...-may-jeremy-corbyn?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet

*Landmark study links Tory austerity to 120,000 deaths*
Government is accused of 'economic murder'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...e-social-care-government-policy-a8057306.html


----------



## Arnie83

Not entirely sure what these recent posts have to do with Brexit.

??


----------



## noushka05

Not sure if anyone posted the resignation letter by Andrew Adonis? Here it is anyway.

*Andrew Adonis*‏Verified [email protected]*Andrew_Adonis* 30 Dec 2017 

_The key sentence of my resignation letter to the PM: "If Brexit happens, taking us back into Europe will become 
the mission of our children's generation, who will marvel at your acts of destruction.

_


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> Not entirely sure what these recent posts have to do with Brexit.
> 
> ??


Back on track now Arnie. But I think some of us are concerned we are going to be punished even harder with austerity once out of the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Surely even Brexiteers should find this despicable seeing most suffering are, "British".....
> View attachment 340646


Some remainers have a warped view of Brexit.

Brexit is about moving forward and developing a future for our country not turning around and going backwards.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So Michael Gove today is to announce that the Government will replace Farmers EU Subsidies with a new initiative were if farmers open some of their land to the public they will receive a payment for doing this.

*Michael Gove: Farmers will receive subsidies for opening up countryside and improving environment after Brexit*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ll-receive-subsidies-opening-countryside/amp/


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Some remainers have a warped view of Brexit.
> 
> Brexit is about moving forward and developing a future for our country not turning around and going backwards.


But in reality brexit will make us insular and poor - it already has & we haven't even left yet. It means the government cosying up to tyrants for trade deals. It means no NHS - more austerity - a race to the bottom for the environment, food standards, workers rights, health & safety. This is why the worst of the worst - the greedy tax dodging disaster capitalists all wanted brexit SWC. The vote leave campaign was bought & paid for by these people. You really think they have our best interests at heart? The prominent right wing brexiteers have turned our country into a laughing stock. Brexit has diminished our reputation just as Trump has diminished Americas.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> But in reality brexit will make us insular and poor - it already has & we haven't even left yet. It means the government cosying up to tyrants for trade deals. It means no NHS - more austerity - a race to the bottom for the environment, food standards, workers rights, health & safety. This is why the worst of the worst - the greedy tax dodging disaster capitalists all wanted brexit SWC. The vote leave campaign was bought & paid for by these people. You really think they have our best interests at heart? The prominent right wing brexiteers have turned our country into a laughing stock. Brexit has diminished our reputation just as Trump has diminished Americas.


I understand this maybe your view and you like shouting and screaming to make sure that this is heard, but it is not everyone's view.

IMV Brexit is on track and doing fine. Once the UK leaves the EU it will bounce back.

Pessimists hope of course the worst for the UK because they didn't like the decision that the whole of the UK made on the 23rd June 2016. I accept that pessimists are negative people who only look at negative things and cannot see anything positive from change eg Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So it looks as if the Department of International Trade is exploring joining TPP after the UK Brexit's in March 2019. Obviously the D.I.T. will be monitoring the re-negotiations from the remaining countries in the TPP after America withdrew last year thanks to DT's decision. The TPP has currently got 11 remaining members including Australia, Mexico, Japan and Canada.

*Brexit: Britain in talks to join Pacific trade group*
http://www.theweek.co.uk/amp/brexit/81116/brexit-and-the-british-economy


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> Some remainers have a warped view of Brexit.
> Brexit is about moving forward and developing a future for our country not turning around and going backwards.


It's your Government that's backwards. They like traditional 'Dickensian' things, like poverty and hunger and homelessness.

Because not a single damned one of them have done a thing to resolve any of these issues.



stockwellcat. said:


> Pessimists hope the worst for the UK. I accept that pessimists are negative people who only look at negative things.


Absolutely not so.

_'The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true' _Julius Robert Oppenheimer 1904 - 1967


----------



## Zaros

As I suspected, you've completely misunderstood and misinterpreted Oppenheimer's quote.

You (the apparent optimist) think this world in which we live, is the best of all possible world's, whilst I (the pessimist) thinks it could be far better and, therefore, believes you (the optimist) is catastrophically wrong.

Nothing negative in that perspective at all.

Like it or not, we are still living in Dickensian times. You just have to open your eyes and look about you to see that.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> As I suspected, you've completely misunderstood and misinterpreted Oppenheimer's quote.


Not at all. I totally understand the quote and interpretated it so it was easy to understand 


> You (the apparent optimist) think this world in which we live, is the best of all possible world's, whilst I (the pessimist) thinks it could be far better and, therefore, believes you (the optimist) is catastrophically wrong.


I was referring to Brexit and now you want to compare the meaning of an optimist and pessimist to the world  The dictionary definition remains the same btw in all dictionaries around the world.

Pessimist - Negative view.
Optimist - Positive view.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> Not at all. I totally understand the quote and interpretated it so it was easy to understand
> I was referring to Brexit and now you want to compare the meaning of an optimist and pessimist to the world  The dictionary definition remains the same btw in all dictionaries around the world.


You initially accused those who voted to remain of being pessimists and associated the term with something negative. You accused those who voted remain of being negative.



stockwellcat. said:


> I understand this maybe your view and you like shouting and screaming to make sure that this is heard, but it is not everyone's view.
> IMV Brexit is on track and doing fine. Once the UK leaves the EU it will bounce back.
> *Pessimists hope of course the worst for the UK* because they didn't like the decision that the whole of the UK made on the 23rd June 2016. I accept that pessimists are negative people who only look at negative things and cannot see anything positive from change eg Brexit.


I simply showed you a different interpretation or perspective.

Time for you to look outside the box

Dictionaries are guides for references, not rules.:Banghead


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I understand this maybe your view and you like shouting and screaming to make sure that this is heard, but it is not everyone's view.


Well back your views up with things which show how it will be better than the avalance of evidence which shows how it will be worse.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So Michael Gove today is to announce that the Government will replace Farmers EU Subsidies with a new initiative were if farmers open some of their land to the public they will receive a payment for doing this.
> 
> *Michael Gove: Farmers will receive subsidies for opening up countryside and improving environment after Brexit*
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ll-receive-subsidies-opening-countryside/amp/


Good news, if it happens.

Though ... from The Times;

Farmers will be guaranteed the same level of subsidy they now receive from the European Union for five years after Brexit in *a government U-turn expected to cost more than £10 billion*.​
I thought that was all going to the NHS.

I read it on a bus.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So it looks as if the Department of International Trade is exploring joining TPP after the UK Brexit's in March 2019. Obviously the D.I.T. will be monitoring the re-negotiations from the remaining countries in the TPP after America withdrew last year thanks to DT's decision. The TPP has currently got 11 remaining members including Australia, Mexico, Japan and Canada.
> 
> *Brexit: Britain in talks to join Pacific trade group*
> http://www.theweek.co.uk/amp/brexit/81116/brexit-and-the-british-economy


How will that differ from EU membership (apart from the market being much smaller)?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> How will that differ from EU membership (apart from the market being much smaller)?


You are asking the wrong person. Try writing to Liam Fox MP Secretary of State for International Trade and President of the Board of Trade since 2016 and asking him.

All I can give you is my view and you'll reject that so what's the point in explaining how I see it.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Back on track now Arnie. But I think some of us are concerned we are going to be punished even harder with austerity once out of the EU.


It wouldn't surprise me at all. There are very few leavers who still bother to claim that we're going to have any sort of economic boom in the years immediately following Brexit, and we all know who gets squeezed when the Tories want to save money.

To be optimistic, though, economic conditions in the rest of the world are looking far more positive than they are here, and with the pound likely to fall further when we leave it may just be that we get some export-led growth. (The sort that Canada experienced and which so influenced Osborne's thinking.)

If that happens, we could see growth alongside reduced government spending.

It's just a shame that we will have shot ourselves in at least one foot by leaving the EU and making our main export market more expensive to trade with.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You are asking the wrong person. Try writing to Liam Fox MP Secretary of State for International Trade and President of the Board of Trade since 2016 and asking him.
> 
> All I can give you is my view and you'll reject that so what's the point in explaining how I see it.


Liam Fox isn't on PF as far as I know.

I just wondered why you thought the TPP was different from the EU. You seem to be in favour of the former but want to leave the latter, so I assumed you must have cogent reasons.


----------



## Goblin

Arnie83 said:


> Good news, if it happens.
> 
> Though ... from The Times;
> 
> Farmers will be guaranteed the same level of subsidy they now receive from the European Union for five years after Brexit in *a government U-turn expected to cost more than £10 billion*.​
> I thought that was all going to the NHS.
> 
> I read it on a bus.


Ah but that's only for 5 years. Then they can blame something else for cutting money to Farmers.



stockwellcat. said:


> So it looks as if the Department of International Trade is exploring joining TPP after the UK Brexit's in March 2019.


So come on as you are pushing it. Advantages to the Pacific trade group as opposed to the EU. After all surely this isn't simply a damage limitation exercise, there has to be actual advantages to having to transport stuff thousands of miles to gain some of the benefits we currently have with our next door neighbours. Not that we couldn't actually trade with these TPP countries anyway, many with preferential deals negotiated as part of being in the EU. Suppose the Trans-Pacific Partnership's Investor-State Dispute Settlement system (ISDS) is something much better than the ECJ.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> So come on as you are pushing it.


I am not pushing anything.



> Not that we couldn't actually trade with these countries anyway,


And what makes you think that? We can trade with these countries in TPP (if a deal is struck) and around the world. Just because the UK is leaving the EU doesn't stop the UK from drawing up it's own trade deals that are maybe better than the EU's (you don't know otherwise).

The problem with the EU's method is the deals it has are not renegotiable unless all of the remaining 27 countries in the EU agree and all of the districts in Belgium and the host country the deal is with outside of the EU agrees. The UK trading outside of the EU means only the UK Parliament which has Parliamentarians from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in it would agree on these deals and doesn't have to agree with 27 other countries on these deals plus the districts of Belgium. This will make, making trade deals easier.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I understand this maybe your view and you like shouting and screaming to make sure that this is heard, but it is not everyone's view.
> 
> IMV Brexit is on track and doing fine. Once the UK leaves the EU it will bounce back.
> 
> Pessimists hope of course the worst for the UK because they didn't like the decision that the whole of the UK made on the 23rd June 2016. I accept that pessimists are negative people who only look at negative things and cannot see anything positive from change eg Brexit.


I'm not shouting and screaming  My views are formed by looking objectively at the evidence - you just double down on your beliefs even when all the evidence shows brexit is already disastrous.



stockwellcat. said:


> So it looks as if the Department of International Trade is exploring joining TPP after the UK Brexit's in March 2019. Obviously the D.I.T. will be monitoring the re-negotiations from the remaining countries in the TPP after America withdrew last year thanks to DT's decision. The TPP has currently got 11 remaining members including Australia, Mexico, Japan and Canada.
> 
> *Brexit: Britain in talks to join Pacific trade group*
> http://www.theweek.co.uk/amp/brexit/81116/brexit-and-the-british-economy


TPP is not good news. Like TTIP it would be a catastrophe. This is the race to the bottom I was speaking about.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Some remainers have a warped view of Brexit.
> 
> Brexit is about moving forward and developing a future for our country not turning around and going backwards.


Rubbish. Back to blue passports after 30 years. You call that progress? First of many backwards steps to come.

Many Brexiteers voted that way to rejoice the "Good old days".

And the borders of the past will become the borders of the future.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Rubbish. Back to blue passports after 30 years.


I don't know where you lived but the last UK passport before the burgundy one was black.









I don't give 2 hoots what colour the passport is.


> Many Brexiteers voted that way to rejoice the "Good old days".


Did they?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I am not pushing anything.


You have throughout this thread pushed the idea that brexit is a good thing despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary and despite not being able to provide credible reasoning and explanations to support that viewpoint.



> And what makes you think that? We can trade with these countries in TPP (if a deal is struck) and around the world.


Maybe you can explain as that is your argument, why we cannot trade with them already. I was under the impression we already could.

Quite interesting though.. wonder how the TPP bands together to fight trade disputes with the rest of the world. Maybe you can provide evidence of such. The EU does "fight together" which means it wins more trade disputes than the UK would alone. One of the advantages of being closely tied together by a common ruleset is to be able to act as a individual group for things like trade disputes. This is directly associated to those "pesky" rules all EU countries have to agree to. Wouldn't do to have someone like Germany be able to dictate rules to everyone else would it.



> Just because the UK is leaving the EU doesn't stop the UK from drawing up it's own trade deals that are maybe better than the EU's (you don't know otherwise).


In case you missed it despite being provided several times, those who negotiate trade deals, even an old WTO leader have stated the UK will be worse of for trade deals outside the EU. It's simple population = negotiating power. Who is going to get the best deal 450 million or 65million?



> The UK trading outside of the EU means only the UK Parliament which has Parliamentarians from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in it would agree on these deals and doesn't have to agree with 27 other countries on these deals plus the districts of Belgium. This will make, making trade deals easier.


So you are quite happy to have to accept clorinated chicken for example and be dictated terms to achieve deals. The EU has over 40 trade deals around the world at far better terms than the UK can negotiate itself. All lost for "but we could" wishful thinking backed up by? Oh that's right.. certain politicians said so.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> Ah but that's only for 5 years. Then they can blame something else for cutting money to Farmers.


Perhaps the cost of the DUP will rise after the next election.

Or our share of TPP administration costs.

One thing's for sure; it won't be because they've decided to fund the NHS properly.


----------



## kimthecat

I really don't think they'll take any notice of Blair , the Labour lefties Momentum etc hate him and his ilk .

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...labour-handmaiden_uk_5a4d3e31e4b025f99e1f9b7d

Tony Blair has warned Jeremy Corbyn that Labour will turn into the 'handmaiden of Brexit' unless the party strongly opposes Tory plans to quit the EU and instead backs a fresh public vote on the issue.

In a blog hosted by HuffPost UK, the former Prime Minister said that 2018 would be the Opposition's "last chance" to insist voters should be allowed to accept or reject the detailed Brexit deal hammered out with Brussels this autumn.

Blair suggested the fresh vote would be either in the form of a second referendum or a special general election that could keep the UK in the EU.


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> Blair suggested the fresh vote would be either in the form of a second referendum or a special general election that could keep the UK in the EU.


General Elections are never about a single topic though are they. We don't need to confuse the issue any more than it already is. It's known many people voted to "leave" for reasons which aren't really affected by the membership.


----------



## KittenKong

Brexit Means Brexit
Red, White and Blue Brexit.

No there's a new one: Green Brexit!

Trusting this lot with the environment is like trusting the Tories with the NHS. 

They're incompatible.

Will it be an Orange Brexit next?


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Brexit Means Brexit
> Red, White and Blue Brexit.
> 
> No there's a new one: Green Brexit!
> 
> Trusting this lot with the environment is like trusting the Tories with the NHS.
> 
> They're incompatible.
> 
> Will it be an Orange Brexit next?


My money's on yellow; after they wash it in chlorine.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Will it be an Orange Brexit next?


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws said:


> This thread is like


I can understand why you feel that. I get a some deja vus on this thread too. I bet I could copy a few posts from previous B-threads and no one would notice .. , or may you would



stockwellcat. said:


> So Michael Gove today is to announce that the Government will replace Farmers EU Subsidies with a new initiative were if farmers open some of their land to the public they will receive a payment for doing this.
> 
> *Michael Gove: Farmers will receive subsidies for opening up countryside and improving environment after Brexit*
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/04/michael-gove-farmers-will-receive-subsidies-opening-countryside/amp/


And the money comes from the money tree this time, right? Remember the money tree discussion? What happens after 5 years? Will most farmers sell their farms very cheaply and in the end you´ll have a few very big industial factory farms? That could easily happen and I bet some are already preparing for massive take overs.



stockwellcat. said:


> I understand this maybe your view and you like shouting and screaming to make sure that this is heard, but it is not everyone's view. IMV Brexit is on track and doing fine. Once the UK leaves the EU it will bounce back.
> 
> Pessimists hope of course the worst for the UK because they didn't like the decision that the whole of the UK made on the 23rd June 2016. I accept that pessimists are negative people who only look at negative things and cannot see anything positive from change eg Brexit.


No we can´t, but we are waiting for you and other leavers to show some evidence how Brexit is going to benefit Britain. So far we have got none. 



Arnie83 said:


> Good news, if it happens.
> Though ... from The Times;
> Farmers will be guaranteed the same level of subsidy they now receive from the European Union for five years after Brexit in *a government U-turn expected to cost more than £10 billion*.
> I thought that was all going to the NHS. I read it on a bus.


So did many other voters...



kimthecat said:


> I really don't think they'll take any notice of Blair , the Labour lefties Momentum etc hate him and his ilk .
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...labour-handmaiden_uk_5a4d3e31e4b025f99e1f9b7d
> 
> Tony Blair has warned Jeremy Corbyn that Labour will turn into the 'handmaiden of Brexit' unless the party strongly opposes Tory plans to quit the EU and instead backs a fresh public vote on the issue.
> 
> In a blog hosted by HuffPost UK, the former Prime Minister said that 2018 would be the Opposition's "last chance" to insist voters should be allowed to accept or reject the detailed Brexit deal hammered out with Brussels this autumn.
> 
> Blair suggested the fresh vote would be either in the form of a second referendum or a special general election that could keep the UK in the EU.


For once I agree with Blair. Labour should insist on a new vote at least.


----------



## noushka05

This doesn't surprise me








 *Mike Galsworthy #FBPE*‏@*mikegalsworthy* 8h8 hours ago


Christ. Tory Party members want the death penalty more than they want the stability of the Single Market.
And they they think austerity is just fine.

https://www.ft.com/content/50fc0d8c-f080-11e7-b220-857e26d1aca4?imageId=b25deeec-f0a3-11e7-ac08-07c3086a2625… via @*FT*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> This doesn't surprise me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mike Galsworthy #FBPE*‏@*mikegalsworthy* 8h8 hours ago
> 
> 
> Christ. Tory Party members want the death penalty more than they want the stability of the Single Market.
> And they they think austerity is just fine.
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/50fc0d8c-f080-11e7-b220-857e26d1aca4?imageId=b25deeec-f0a3-11e7-ac08-07c3086a2625… via @*FT*


*Vast majority of Conservative Party members back clean Brexit while nine in ten oppose second EU referendum*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ive-party-members-back-clean-brexit-nine/amp/


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> *Vast majority of Conservative Party members back clean Brexit while nine in ten oppose second EU referendum*
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ive-party-members-back-clean-brexit-nine/amp/


Am I supposed to be surprised?


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> I really don't think they'll take any notice of Blair , the Labour lefties Momentum etc hate him and his ilk .
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...labour-handmaiden_uk_5a4d3e31e4b025f99e1f9b7d
> 
> Tony Blair has warned Jeremy Corbyn that Labour will turn into the 'handmaiden of Brexit' unless the party strongly opposes Tory plans to quit the EU and instead backs a fresh public vote on the issue.
> 
> In a blog hosted by HuffPost UK, the former Prime Minister said that 2018 would be the Opposition's "last chance" to insist voters should be allowed to accept or reject the detailed Brexit deal hammered out with Brussels this autumn.
> 
> Blair suggested the fresh vote would be either in the form of a second referendum or a special general election that could keep the UK in the EU.


I just smelt a bad smell. Oh the wind blew it away. Oh did Blair say something again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Am I supposed to be surprised?


This might though 
*Nigel Farage to meet EU's Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier*
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/nigel-farage-to-meet-eus-brexit-negotiator-michel-barnier-11195584


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> This might though
> *Nigel Farage to meet EU's Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier*
> https://news.sky.com/story/amp/nigel-farage-to-meet-eus-brexit-negotiator-michel-barnier-11195584


:Wideyed:Jawdrop


----------



## Zaros

MrsZee said:


> I can understand why you feel that. I get a some deja vus on this thread too. I bet I could copy a few posts from previous B-threads and no one would notice ..


:Hilarious



stockwellcat. said:


> *Vast majority of Conservative Party members back clean Brexit while nine in ten oppose second EU referendum*
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ive-party-members-back-clean-brexit-nine/amp/


In that case, take the nine outside and have them tarred and feathered.

In fact, sod it!

Take them all out and have them all tarred and feathered.

*Situations vacant. *

Wanted. Person or persons who are willing to thieve from the poor, starve the hungry, prolong the suffering of the sick and infirm, screw the country over for personal profit and then blame people from other lands, the unemployed, the handicapped, the homeless, immigrants, etc, etc, etc.

Suit corrupt, back stabbing little weasel.


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Am I supposed to be surprised?


Can't you just act surprised? 

For effect.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> *Vast majority of Conservative Party members back clean Brexit while nine in ten oppose second EU referendum*
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ive-party-members-back-clean-brexit-nine/amp/


Hardly a shock is it. Giving the public a chance to show the, the conservatives are answerable to the population at a time when they are trying to bypass even parliament to be able to do what they want to.



stockwellcat. said:


> This might though ...


Funny how his request includes a basic lie isn't it. Can't even make a request for a meeting without lying in an attempt to grab the headlines. Then again maybe someone can provide evidence to back his claim "17.4 million who did not vote for a transition deal". Certainly wasn't on any ballot paper I've seen or opinion poll.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> I just smelt a bad smell. Oh the wind blew it away. Oh did Blair say something again.


That'll be the stench of smouldering Iraqi children.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> In that case, take the nine outside and have them tarred and feathered.
> 
> In fact, sod it!
> 
> Take them all out and have them all tarred and feathered.
> 
> *Situations vacant. *
> 
> Wanted. Person or persons who are willing to thieve from the poor, starve the hungry, prolong the suffering of the sick and infirm, screw the country over for personal profit and then blame people from other lands, the unemployed, the handicapped, the homeless, immigrants, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> Suit corrupt, back stabbing little weasel.


9 in 10 Conservative MP's back a clean Brexit so in my reckoning thats 284.4 MP's in the Conservative party that back a clean Brexit and 31.6 that don't (the conservative party have 316 MP's without the DUP N.I.MP's).


----------



## Guest

A puzzle: What does this picture resemble?


----------



## stockwellcat.

MrsZee said:


> A puzzle: What does this picture resemble?


Tony Blair after the Iraq War when he realised there was no weapons of mass destruction and he shouldn't have believed in his American best friend Geroge Bush Jnr.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> 9 in 10 Conservative MP's back a clean Brexit so in my reckoning thats 284.4 MP's in the Conservative party that back a clean Brexit and 31.6 that don't (the conservative party have 316 MP's without the DUP N.I.MP's).


Then again. you don't believe in any polls remember. Wonder who the 0.4 is and which 0.4 parts. Obviously brain not included.

Edit: remind me again of May's majority and how likely that number will stay the same after any local elections?


----------



## KittenKong

Right. Let's presume they hold another referendum and Remain win by 52% against 48% for Leave.

The government automatically plans a hard remain: Adopt the Euro and adopt Schengen. Be like the rest of Europe!

While I would personally rejoice and embrace this I would imagine many remain voters didn't assume this would be the outcome and would argue it wasn't what they voted for.

Farage himself said it wouldn't be a done deal. I doubt very much any hardened Brexiteers would accept this either and would fight tooth and nail to save the £ as they look forward to an image of Margaret Thatcher on the reverse of a future bank note.

Think about this for a minute. Why should it be any different re the current situation? Not all Brexiteers assumed they would leave the CU and SM for example.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Right. Let's presume they hold another referendum and Remain win by 52% against 48% for Leave.
> 
> The government automatically plans a hard remain: Adopt the Euro and adopt Schengen. Be like the rest of Europe!
> 
> While I would personally rejoice and embrace this I would imagine many remain voters didn't assume this would be the outcome and would argue it wasn't what they voted for.


Thank you for confirming this that if the results were opposite you'd be happy and no doubt happy leave voters are being ignored. Well have a bit of humanity and let the leave voters be happy at the moment instead of belittling them, saying they are wrong and not letting them have a say by ignoring what they say.

So no one on the remain side on pf has yet told me the reasons why we should stay in the EU which I asked the question a page or 2 back and it got ignored by you, goblin, mrs zee and zaros.


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> Thank you for confirming this that if the results were opposite you'd be happy and no doubt happy leave voters are being ignored. Well have a bit of humanity and let the leave voters be happy at the moment instead of belittling them, saying they are wrong and not letting them have a say by ignoring what they say.
> 
> So no one on the remain side on pf has yet told me the reasons why we should stay in the EU which I asked the question a page or 2 back and it got ignored by you, goblin, mrs zee and zaros.


Now now, we all have been posting posts after posts showing how much UK will lose because of Brexit. You are aware that fake news don´t last long here. Or you don´t consider them either as an answer as they are not what you agree with. A bit like polls?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Well have a bit of humanity and let the leave voters be happy at the moment instead of belittling them, saying they are wrong and not letting them have a say by ignoring what they say.


Don't ignore you.. that's simply your cop out answer when asked to provide advantages to leaving based on facts or things you fail to defend the validity of. Anything you have put forward so far has not stood up to the application of realistic facts. Wishes are not reality.



> So no one on the remain side on pf has yet told me the reasons why we should stay in the EU which I asked the question a page or 2 back and it got ignored by you, goblin, mrs zee and zaros.


Funny how you say we ignore you then isn't it...



Goblin said:


> Well you never did argue the following (not my list):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> providing large % of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
Click to expand...


----------



## kimthecat

MrsZee said:


> A puzzle: What does this picture resemble?


A scarecrow with a very big head?


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> A scarecrow with a very big head?


A buffoon with bad , blonde hairdo?


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> A buffoon with bad , blonde hairdo?


:Hilarious Hmm That reminds me of someone !


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious Hmm That reminds me of someone !


At least two!


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


>


The new UK negotiator  when TM sidelines David Davis in her reshuffle.


----------



## stockwellcat.

*Tony Blair unveils blueprint for stopping Brexit with 32-page report branded 'Project Fear Mark 2'*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...blueprint-stopping-brexit-32-page-report/amp/

But who is actually listening to him? He told us Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and they didn't, he cost the lives of British soldiers and innocent Iraqi's lives. Back in your rabbit hole you go Blair.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> This doesn't surprise me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mike Galsworthy #FBPE*‏@*mikegalsworthy* 8h8 hours ago
> 
> 
> Christ. Tory Party members want the death penalty more than they want the stability of the Single Market.
> And they they think austerity is just fine.
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/50fc0d8c-f080-11e7-b220-857e26d1aca4?imageId=b25deeec-f0a3-11e7-ac08-07c3086a2625… via @*FT*


A 'breed apart' .... yet demonstrably more in touch with the population which is why they attract more votes than any other party.

Fwiw, I would answer 'disagree', 'disagree', 'disagree', 'agree', 'disagree', as would most people with an intelligently informed perspective on these matters.

It should rather say a 'breed above'.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *So no one on the remain side on pf has yet told me the reasons why we should stay in the EU *which I asked the question a page or 2 back and it got ignored by you, goblin, mrs zee and zaros.





Arnie83 said:


> I don't think I've ever asked you for your reasons, but the benefits of staying, from my point of view include ...
> 
> A single market of 500,000,000 people for our businesses to sell into with no more barriers than within our own borders, leading to higher economic growth and more jobs for the next generation. The closest the world has to a truly free trade area.
> 
> Free Trade Agreements with more than 60 other countries around the world helping both them and us, on terms more favourable than would be achieved by a single country.
> 
> (CBI estimates net benefit of membership @ c. £80bn per annum)
> 
> Freedom of travel across all EU countries for pleasure, work or residence.
> 
> A louder voice in world affairs.
> 
> A leading voice in the cooperative ventures across many fields, from logistical necessities such as aviation through education and research where we can benefit from the leading minds of a continent rather than just a country.
> 
> The influx of young workers to many industries that need them - NHS, hospitality, agriculture etc - boosting the economy and contributing to public purse for future pension payments to aging UK population.
> 
> A safeguard for the environmental protections, workers rights and capitalist efficiencies that would otherwise be at the mercy of an undemocratic 'first past the post' system producing governments of fluctuating ideologies for which no majority of the electorate ever votes.
> 
> There's more that I could mention, but the overarching one for me:
> 
> Rejection of a nationalist mindset that considers the world as a bunch of competing tribes instead of seeing it as one family of mankind.


----------



## stockwellcat.

It's a pointless arguement as Remainers and Leavers are never going to see eye to eye. Yet if remainers won the referendum you'd expect leavers to just be quiet because you got what you wanted, @KittenKong kind of explained this.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> A 'breed apart' .... yet demonstrably more in touch with the population which is why they attract more votes than any other party.
> 
> Fwiw, I would answer 'disagree', 'disagree', 'disagree', 'agree', 'disagree', as would most people with an intelligently informed perspective on these matters.
> 
> It should rather say a 'breed above'.


I put a lot of that down to the right wing propaganda machine - the young generation are waking up though. Most tory members are old, the party is dying, hopefully brexit will kill the toxic tory party off forever . It amazes me when I hear tory voters complain about the state of our NHS, collapsing public services, homelessness, lack of affordable housing, badger culling. Its like they don't realise they are part of the problem 

Its a choice between brexit & the NHS. We know we cant have both. If we brexit a US trade deal is required. If that happens health care will be up for grabs and our already crippled NHS will be gone forever. I think many voters who have faith in the tories are going to live to regret their choices only when the consequences of their decision directly affects them or a loved one. And most of us will need the NHS as some point. Hope they've all got massive bank balances because health insurance may not help.

I disagree.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Can't you just act surprised?
> 
> For effect.


:Hilarious

:Jawdrop:Wideyed

Will that do?


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> :Jawdrop:Wideyed
> 
> Will that do?


Perfect.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> :Jawdrop:Wideyed
> 
> Will that do?


:Hilarious
Yes that will do. 
I'll pretend your surprised.


----------



## KittenKong

Fancy including international students as part of your anti immigration drive Maybot. You know how to make people feel unwelcome.

Let them stay away and take their studies and finances elsewhere. I certainly would.

This has even drawn criticism from some of her backbenchers.

You"d think the Government would be proud that international students would want to study in the UK.

Not in Brexit Britain it seems.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-international-students-net-migration-figures


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> It's a pointless arguement as Remainers and Leavers are never going to see eye to eye..


Then I think you'll agree, the 'united' kingdom is a very divided nation. Not that it ever has been completely united except, perhaps, in time of war.

A nation of '_we'_ has gradually been reduced to a nation of '_me'_ executed by the avarice few, with a clear **** you, I'm alright union Jack attitude.

The real people, who helped make Britain great, have been exploited to the full by the scurrilous, greedy, grasping few. These rapacious parasites have reaped the benefits and profits the real people worked their fingers to the bone for and yet received little to nothing in return for all their endeavours.

Britain, never really cast off its slave master image, did it.:Meh


----------



## KittenKong

Zaros said:


> Not that it ever has been completely united except, perhaps, in time of war.


That's a very worrying sentence indeed.

Those of us who remember the Falklands will recall how that transformed Thatcher's deeply unpopular government overnight.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> It's a pointless arguement as Remainers and Leavers are never going to see eye to eye. Yet if remainers won the referendum you'd expect leavers to just be quiet because you got what you wanted, @KittenKong kind of explained this.


If Remain had won by 51.9% to 48.1 I'd expect Farage, Redwood, Rees-Mogg, IDS etc etc to be screaming from the rooftops.

If there's a second referendum to find out the Will of the People when they have the facts in front of them, rather than speculation and lies on a bus, and that referendum shows that the People now want to stay, I expect it to be hysterically attacked as an anti-democratic device of the 'elite' (whoever they are).


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Then I think you'll agree, the 'united' kingdom is a very divided nation. Not that it ever has been completely united except, perhaps, in time of war.
> 
> A nation of '_we'_ has gradually been reduced to a nation of '_me'_ executed by the avarice few, with a clear **** you, I'm alright union Jack attitude.
> 
> The real people, who helped make Britain great, have been exploited to the full by the scurrilous, greedy, grasping few. These rapacious parasites have reaped the benefits and profits the real people worked their fingers to the bone for and yet received little to nothing in return for all their endeavours.
> 
> Britain, never really cast off its slave master image, did it.:Meh


Spot on.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I wonder why " free world" and "world markets" jumped for joy after referendum and simply pound crashed and British economy was promptly downgraded and fell behind France...
Sorry, this is not what Remain think, this is what the world business think.
Why @stockwellcat. they priced in slowdown, recession and doom and gloom?

This is what exactly business think about our great deals in the future!

Worse, the more talk about No deal the more pound falls...
Talk about staying in Single Market and pound is rising...

This is what financial world overall think about Brexit.

As to stamps: Murdoch, Green, Putin, Trump, Banks should all be there as those who financed and mightily supported Brexit. Not just Farage, BoJo and Davis... Put those on our stamps going abroad...


----------



## Arnie83

I read a lot about how being against Brexit is somehow unpatriotic, whether you're a person or a broadcasting corporation.

I don't think it is, but that's sort of secondary. 

It makes me wonder why being patriotic is so very much taken for granted as a good thing, as an unquestionably desirable trait. Accusing someone of a lack of it implies such a heinous failure of character that the accused should be shunned.

I think it's time we questioned that. Sensibly, of course, without the vitriol that such a suggestion would no doubt attract in the Mail. But it doesn't half cause a lot of problems on this planet.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> I read a lot about how being against Brexit is somehow unpatriotic, whether you're a person or a broadcasting corporation.
> 
> I don't think it is, but that's sort of secondary.
> 
> It makes me wonder why being patriotic is so very much taken for granted as a good thing, as an unquestionably desirable trait. Accusing someone of a lack of it implies such a heinous failure of character that the accused should be shunned.
> 
> I think it's time we questioned that. Sensibly, of course, without the vitriol that such a suggestion would no doubt attract in the Mail. But it doesn't half cause a lot of problems on this planet.


I couldn't care less if anyone decides I'm not patriotic through not supporting Brexit. They are entitled to their opinion.

What I would say is I have faith in the UK as being part of a greater Europe, able to work with nearby countries and be an influence to them and vice versa.

The alternative to this is closer association with the US and being cut off from our European neighbours.

So much for getting their country back. It'll be less an individual country as part of Europe in becoming an annex of the US.

People don't believe me? Look at the way May panicked over the possible invite of Obama to the forthcoming royal wedding for example.....


----------



## Guest

Arnie83 said:


> I read a lot about how being against Brexit is somehow unpatriotic, whether you're a person or a broadcasting corporation.
> 
> I don't think it is, but that's sort of secondary.
> 
> It makes me wonder why being patriotic is so very much taken for granted as a good thing, as an unquestionably desirable trait. Accusing someone of a lack of it implies such a heinous failure of character that the accused should be shunned.
> 
> I think it's time we questioned that. Sensibly, of course, without the vitriol that such a suggestion would no doubt attract in the Mail. But it doesn't half cause a lot of problems on this planet.


Especially when the extreme right has started to use it as something they can define what is patriotic and what not. Here the nazi-party (Basic Finns) and clubs/groups supporting "white Finns" basically claim that anyone criticizing them is not a patriot. They even claim that they speak on behalf of the war veterans. The same patriotic message is used all over the world too. Hindu/Buddist/ Muslim/Christian/Jewish/ etc. extremist use the same method too, and unfortunately it works.

I think that anyone claiming some one else is not a patriot is supporting the extremists and it gives me shivers every time. For me a patriot is a person helping others, protecting nature and finding things to improve in one´s country. Nothing to do with nationality religion or skin colour.


----------



## Arnie83

Interestingly ...

600,000 of those who voted in the referendum die every year.

Given the age profile of deaths v. that of the referendum voters, 450,000 of them would be Leavers, v. 150,000 Remainers.

And if those who become eligible to vote by the time we leave the EU were to cast their votes the same way as that age group in 2016, there would be a Remain majority in 2019 without anyone changing their mind.

The Will of the People. It must be enacted.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws said:


> This thread is like


 All the Brexit/Referendum threads always have been; and always will be.


----------



## KittenKong

Well, they are unofficially known as the party for the few!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-may-tory-members-david-cameron-a8143956.html


----------



## Goblin

Calvine said:


> I can think of a few on here who should change their user names to these!


Well maybe you can provide evidence the UK will be better off, nobody else has been able to. Notice you've avoided doing so so far.


----------



## KittenKong

Yahoo! More great news from the Brexit camp! If you can't wait for your new/old blue passports and stamps you can buy these commemorate coins for now. Order your coins now before they sell out! Link via EBay.

Ahem, not only have they had the nerve to include the Scottish flag who overwhelmingly voted remain but the Northern Ireland red cross is also conspicuous by its absence.....

A collectors item of the future when the flag is restricted to the English one, or more likely the addition of the US stars and stripes.

Come to think of it the design of this coin already looks rather American......


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yahoo! More great news from the Brexit camp! If you can't wait for your new/old blue passports you can buy these commemorate coins for now. Order your coins now before they sell out!
> 
> Ahem, not only have they had the nerve to include the Scottish flag who overwhelmingly voted remain but the Northern Ireland red cross is also conspicuous by its absence.....
> View attachment 340865


Well done for advertising them for the ebayer who made them. I purchased mine yesterday from this ebayer.

The Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh flags where included because they are part of the UK and will be leaving with the rest of the UK on brexit day March 2019. The Northern Irish flag is on the coin btw (Red Cross with a hand in the middle - see flag at bottom of this post) its on the bottom left hand side with Scottish flag on the bottom right.

England is still leaving the EU.
Scotland is still leaving the EU.
Northern Ireland is still leaving the EU.
Wales is still leaving the EU.
No change to the United Kingdoms flag.

Wales and Scotland have both been told by EU that there is to be no special status for them and they are to leave with the rest of the UK. Northern Ireland is a different question because it is part of the Island of Ireland and has a land border with an EU member (The Republic of Ireland).

Regarding your last little bit. I don't care what colour the passport is, pink, yellow, green, blue at the end of the day it's a passport.

@KittenKong this is the Northern Irish Flag which is on the coin.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Well done for advertising them for the ebayer who made them. I purchased mine yesterday from this ebayer.
> 
> The Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh flags where included because they are part of the UK and will be leaving with the rest of the UK on brexit day March 2019. The Northern Irish flag is on the coin btw (Red Cross with a fist in the middle) its on the bottom left hand side with Scottish flag on the bottom right.
> 
> England is still leaving the EU.
> Scotland is still leaving the EU.
> Northern Ireland is still leaving the EU.
> Wales is still leaving the EU.
> No change to the United Kingdoms flag.
> 
> Wales and Scotland have both been told by EU that there is to be no special status for them and they are to leave with the rest of the UK. Northern Ireland is a different question because it is part of the Island of Ireland and has a land border with an EU member (The Republic of Ireland).


Still *currently* leaving. It can still change. Open border in Northern Ireland mucks up the whole argument about voting to leave the single market doesn't it though as well as the argument about "controlling immigration". Can't do that whilst having an open border, ignoring the fact we don't have the people to control the UK border regardless. Not that Ireland has actually been worked out either, simply postponed the difficulties.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Still *currently* leaving. It can still change. Open border in Northern Ireland mucks up the whole argument about voting to leave the single market doesn't it though as well as the argument about "controlling immigration". Can't do that whilst having an open border, ignoring the fact we don't have the people to control the UK border regardless. Not that Ireland has actually been worked out either, simply postponed the difficulties.


EU said No Special Deals for Scotland and Wales so they are leaving with the UK (the EU MEPs voted on this in the European Parliament recently). With Northern Ireland we will see what happens as nothing is set in stone until everything is agreed upon and DUP aren't happy with everything at the moment as more clarification is needed. A special deal will probably be agreed upon with Northern Ireland but lets see what that is and what that entails as the DUP might not like it as their stance is Northern Ireland leaves with the rest of the UK.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> EU said No Special Deals for Scotland and Wales so they are leaving with the UK (the EU MEPs voted on this in the European Parliament recently). With Northern Ireland we will see what happens as nothing is set in stone until everything is agreed upon and DUP aren't happy with everything at the moment as more clarification is needed. A special deal will probably be agreed upon with Northern Ireland but lets see what that is and what that entails as the DUP might not like it as their stance is Northern Ireland leaves with the rest of the UK.


Thereby nullifying your previous post. Nothing is set in stone including if the UK actually leaves. Still awaiting your advantages to leaving based on reality.


----------



## Arnie83

Good news that May has called off the vote to reintroduce fox hunting. But as she said:

"As prime minister, my job isn't just about what I think about something, it's actually about looking at what the view of the country is."

The operative word there is the last one.

It isn't 'was'.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Thereby nullifying your previous post. Nothing is set in stone including if the UK actually leaves. Still awaiting your advantages to leaving based on reality.


The UK can still walk away with no deal. No permission needed for this. May is being pressured to walk away if the EU aren't willing to move forward with a deal.

You're really hopeful that this will all magically disappear aren't you? Sorry to burst your bubble.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Good news that May has called off the vote to reintroduce fox hunting. But as she said:
> 
> "As prime minister, my job isn't just about what I think about something, it's actually about looking at what the view of the country is."
> 
> The operative word there is the last one.
> 
> It isn't 'was'.


That was about her comment on Fox Hunting nothing else. I love how your trying to twist it to look as if it is to do with Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well done for advertising them for the ebayer who made them. I purchased mine yesterday from this ebayer.
> 
> The Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh flags where included because they are part of the UK and will be leaving with the rest of the UK on brexit day March 2019. The Northern Irish flag is on the coin btw (Red Cross with a hand in the middle - see flag at bottom of this post) its on the bottom left hand side with Scottish flag on the bottom right.
> 
> England is still leaving the EU.
> Scotland is still leaving the EU.
> Northern Ireland is still leaving the EU.
> Wales is still leaving the EU.
> No change to the United Kingdoms flag.
> 
> Wales and Scotland have both been told by EU that there is to be no special status for them and they are to leave with the rest of the UK. Northern Ireland is a different question because it is part of the Island of Ireland and has a land border with an EU member (The Republic of Ireland).
> 
> Regarding your last little bit. I don't care what colour the passport is, pink, yellow, green, blue at the end of the day it's a passport.
> 
> @KittenKong this is the Northern Irish Flag which is on the coin.
> View attachment 340883


How very big of you but it is a free country. Each to their own as they say.

If I wanted any of this patriotic pap I would have ventured down to any souvenir shop and bought them there. Plenty in London from what I remember.

Well spotted re the NI flag. I was referring to the red cross actually rather than the England flag with the NI motive on it.

Only one flag matters to me, can you guess what it is? I do like the Scottish white cross though. Even more significant if they do become independent and EU members in the future.

Still, I have more good news for you. Seems Germany are treating UK citizens as non EU citizens already even though the UKEU passport has another year to run.

Thought this yet another delve into the past would please you.









From Sabre Roads "Brexit What Now" thread.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You're really hopeful that this will all magically disappear aren't you? Sorry to burst your bubble.


If the referendum ended with 52% for remain I would worry about the possibility of another referendum seeing it went in my favour!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> If the referendum ended with 52% for remain* I would worry about the possibility of another referendum seeing it went in my favour!*


Why?
I will still vote the same way as I did and will continue voting the same way if I had to again.

So what happens then if the UK had another referendum and the UK voted leave with a higher majority what would you do then?


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> Thereby nullifying your previous post. Nothing is set in stone including if the UK actually leaves. Still awaiting your advantages to leaving based on reality.


Brexit coins, waving UK flags, blue passports and Brexit stamps are seen as the advantages probably. Funny that as the EU never planned to ban them, nor blue passports for that matter!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Brexit coins, waving UK flags, blue passports and Brexit stamps are seen as the advantages probably.


Not really no. Novelty items yes.

As I said before the passport colour does not bother me.

They aren't releasing any stamps although I would buy them if they did as they maybe worth money in years to come. I wouldn't buy them to say they are an advantage for leaving. They are just novelty items.


----------



## Magyarmum

Interesting article .... just shows the UK isn't the only country disillusioned by the EU!

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/five-countries-think-even-less-eu-britain-154941142.html


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> Interesting article .... just shows the UK isn't the only country disillusioned by the EU!
> 
> https://uk.news.yahoo.com/five-countries-think-even-less-eu-britain-154941142.html


They'll always be an element of nationalism but they're usually the minority. I'm sure some hardliners in Eastern Europe would long to return to the days of the iron curtain for example.

I don't think any other country would be stupid enough to hold an in/out referendum like the UK government did. If they did they'd be no guarantee leave would win anyway.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well I found this, this morning which was published on the 4th January 2018 and is very thorough:

*Brexit: All you need to know about the UK leaving the EU*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887

In this article it clearly states the following:

*Could there be a second referendum?*
It seems highly unlikely. Both the Conservatives and the Labour Party have ruled out another referendum, arguing that it would be an undemocratic breach of trust with the British people who clearly voted to Leave.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Well I found this, this morning which was published on the 4th January 2018 and is very thorough:
> 
> *Brexit: All you need to know about the UK leaving the EU*
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887
> 
> In this article it clearly states the following:
> 
> *Could there be a second referendum?*
> It seems highly unlikely. Both the Conservatives and the Labour Party have ruled out another referendum, arguing that it would be an undemocratic breach of trust with the British people who clearly voted to Leave.


Doesn't have to be another referendum to stop the process does it. Simply needs those in power to actually listen to the population or do what is best for the country, especially when the terms are known. In case you missed it U-turns are not uncommon in party politics either.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Doesn't have to be another referendum to stop the process does it. Simply needs those in power to actually listen to the population or do what is best for the country, especially when the terms are known. In case you missed it U-turns are not uncommon in party politics either.


But they have listened to the population. The population voted leave and that is exactly what is happening. A few are resisting in the popualtion, but hey ho you can't please everyone.

At the end of the day we are just 14 months and 22 days away from the big day (29th March 2019).


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> That was about her comment on Fox Hunting nothing else. I love how your trying to twist it to look as if it is to do with Brexit.


You seriously don't think that description of her job should apply to all topics?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *The UK can still walk away with no deal. No permission needed for this*. May is being pressured to walk away if the EU aren't willing to move forward with a deal.
> 
> You're really hopeful that this will all magically disappear aren't you? Sorry to burst your bubble.


I think the permission of Parliament would be required.


----------



## Guest

Stamps, coins, passport colour - nice topics to talk about Brexit instead of the consequences. Much easier to understand and seem to work well as a diverse tactic. Works for Trump too. Naturally the result is really bad - the poor, who thought Trump was their man, and who actually took away the little they had, (new tax laws, weakened obamacare) but they don´t care, as they think they got what they wanted, no matter what, Even when the rest of the world sees what Trump truly is, his followers remain loyal. No matter what the facts tell them and how bad their plight gets.

But then the same people helped Trump get what he wanted and Brexit people get what they wanted - the connections have been posted on PF several times. Nothing uncanny, but something very sad and frightening.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I think the permission of Parliament would be required.


Not at the moment. At the moment the UK can still walk away with no deal. Here's why..
The amendment made in December 2017 by MP's has not passed all commitee stages and could still be watered down or rejected at a later stage. The amendment has to also pass the house of lords and a subsequent vote in Parliament before the EU Withdrawal bill is presented to the Queen to be made law. Cutrently the EU Withdrawal Bill is not in law in the UK nor is any amendments that can be rejected at a later stage. This bill could take until February 2019 to go through all stages.

So I would like to correct you and tell you you're wrong at this stage the UK can still walk away without permission from Parliament.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> But they have listened to the population. The population voted leave and that is exactly what is happening. A few are resisting in the popualtion, but hey ho you can't please everyone.
> 
> At the end of the day we are just 14 months and 22 days away from the big day (29th March 2019).


The outcome of the local elections in May will show if public opinion remains the same as it did in 2016.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> The outcome of the local elections in May will show if public opinion remains the same as it did in 2016.


Local elections aren't connected with Brexit. They are to do with our Parliament. Local elections don't include all areas of the UK either just some areas like last year. GE's are the main ones. Local elections don't determine who is leader of the country either.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Local elections aren't connected with Brexit. They are to do with our Parliament. Local elections don't include all areas of the UK either just some areas like last year. GE's are the main ones. Local elections don't determine who is leader of the country either.


You're right to a point but party politics has a lot to do with it. It's unlikely a remainer would vote Tory or UKIP and vice versa, even in a local election.

May's hard Brexit stance cost her party their clear overall majority in her snap election.

Not everyone who voted for Brexit agrees with leaving the SM and CU in the same sense not all remain voters agree with adopting the Euro and Schengen, however strong our own respective views may be.

We speak for ourselves, not the entire population!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Not at the moment. At the moment the UK can still walk away with no deal. Here's why..
> The amendment made in December 2017 by MP's has not passed all commitee stages and could still be watered down or rejected at a later stage. The amendment has to also pass the house of lords and a subsequent vote in Parliament before the EU Withdrawal bill is presented to the Queen to be made law. *Cutrently the EU Withdrawal Bill is not in law in the UK *nor is any amendments that can be rejected at a later stage. This bill could take until February 2019 to go through all stages.
> 
> So I would like to correct you and tell you you're wrong at this stage the UK can still walk away without permission from Parliament.


Therefore we couldn't just walk away.

Parliament would need to approve a no deal Brexit. Trust me.

What about this one ...


Arnie83 said:


> You seriously don't think that description of her job should apply to all topics?


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> They'll always be an element of nationalism but they're usually the minority. I'm sure some hardliners in Eastern Europe would long to return to the days of the iron curtain for example.
> 
> I don't think any other country would be stupid enough to hold an in/out referendum like the UK government did. If they did they'd be no guarantee leave would win anyway.


That's rather a glib answer, How much do you know about the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe? Not much I suspect!

Do you seriously think that even the hardest of hardliners would want to return to this .....






There are many Hungarians who remember what it was like living under communism and from what they tell me it wasn't pleasant!!

Whilst Hungary hasn't had a referendum about whether or not to leave the EU, Hungary did however hold a referendum about immigration in 2016.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...migrant-quotas-polls-suggest---but-what-does/


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> Whilst Hungary hasn't had a referendum about whether or not to leave the EU, Hungary did however hold a referendum about immigration in 2016.


I'm sure you're not intentionally doing so, but we should be careful we don't conflate refugee migration with the free movement of EU citizens. That was one of Farage's tricks!


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> That's rather a glib answer, How much do you know about the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe? Not much I suspect!
> 
> Do you seriously think that even the hardest of hardliners would want to return to this .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are many Hungarians who remember what it was like living under communism and from what they tell me it wasn't pleasant!!
> 
> Whilst Hungary hasn't had a referendum about whether or not to leave the EU, Hungary did however hold a referendum about immigration in 2016.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...migrant-quotas-polls-suggest---but-what-does/


Using your argument why do some have fond thoughts about the British Empire, something Adolf Hitler reportedly thought highly of and attempted to build his own. Germany certainly was, "great" in those days wasn't it, just as Britain once was.

As you say no one in their right minds would cherish the days of Soviet Communism nor Nazi Germany/fascist Italy etc. The EEC was established to ensure this would never happen again. Why do you think so many former Iron Country countries were quick to join? Why is Putin amongst others keen to see the EEC/EU collapse?

Brexit has brought this from the fringes into the mainstream.

It's all about a longing for the past.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I'm sure you're not intentionally doing so, but we should be careful we don't conflate refugee migration with the free movement of EU citizens. That was one of Farage's tricks!


Just stating a fact that other countries do hold referendums although not necessarily about the EU. Switzerland for example holds them on a fairly regular basis.

Hungary's referendum had nothing whatsoever to do with the free movement of EU citizens.

http://www.euronews.com/2016/10/01/all-you-need-to-know-about-hungary-s-refugee-referendum


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> The UK can still walk away with no deal. No permission needed for this. May is being pressured to walk away if the EU aren't willing to move forward with a deal. You're really hopeful that this will all magically disappear aren't you? Sorry to burst your bubble.


There is that danger, some in UK want that, but as the majority even in the conservative party doesn´t want that, as it would lead just about immediate chaos at least in financies, the likelihood is not high. EU felt sorry for UK and let you have more time By accepting that NI border can be settled later. Still, it has to be settled before any deal will be accepted.

But the interesting question is: as no sane politician really will go for no deal option, what if, if UK can´t solve the border question, will UK actually have a way to back from Brexit altogether. Usually Brits have been practical minded people, and when the push comes to shove, maybe the common sense will take over national pride. Voters obviously want some benefits of Brexit and if the current facts of Brexit are going to seriously harm UK, why would they do a U-turn. Naturally it will be sold to public in a way that would show how UK got a better deal and a genuine independence etc. (=more symbolic gestures).



Magyarmum said:


> Interesting article .... just shows the UK isn't the only country disillusioned by the EU!
> https://uk.news.yahoo.com/five-countries-think-even-less-eu-britain-154941142.html


The countries are: The Czech Republic and Hungary- are at the moment supporting pretty much similar politics than Poland and EU does have problems with these. We already had lots of discussion about the current Polish goverment and the thread it poses to democracy. No wonder these countries don´t like EU.

Remember when leavers said Brexit has nothing to do with racism? Well, all of these have extremely negative attitude toward refugees. In Hungary they are locked behind barbed wire, while waiting to be transported other EU- countries, Hungary and Czech accepted zero refugee and Poland has openly claimed EU should close all borders from refugees.

Greece- problems have been caused pretty much By themselves, the amount of corruption and bad goverment has been huge, and the remedies pretty strict. Naturally most politician blamed EU, despite the billions we used to pay their loans just so the country wouldn´t collapse. But it is doing better, finally.
Latvia has not improved it´s economy in the same way e.g. Estonia and has had major political crisis (e.g. no government for months in 2016). Large Russian minority doesn´t really help to build unity.



stockwellcat. said:


> Local elections aren't connected with Brexit. They are to do with our Parliament. Local elections don't include all areas of the UK either just some areas like last year. GE's are the main ones. Local elections don't determine who is leader of the country either.


Local elections do reflect the political climate and if there are big changes, all sane policians will listen pretty carefully why and act accordingly. But they are a long way ahead and the result could easily be a divided one. Who knows what happens then?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Local elections aren't connected with Brexit. They are to do with our Parliament. Local elections don't include all areas of the UK either just some areas like last year. GE's are the main ones. Local elections don't determine who is leader of the country either.


Local elections aren't solely about Brexit. That is not the same as not connected to Brexit. The referendum was not even solely about leaving the EU, yet alone the idea of leaving the single market with people using it to display displeasure of the government as "is was obvious leave wouldn't win".

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/...will-of-the-british-people-it-never-has-been/

One of the reasons obviously why referendums are non-binding in the UK as was the EU referendum. It's been shown again and again that the EU referendum did not represent the will of the people and certainly doesn't now.

Of course if people are looking at referendums maybe they should look at countries which actually do them well in an attempt not to simply give a pretense of "democracy" but to actually ensure the question of the referendum is answered. New Zealand for example actually has a body to ensure claims by campaigners are factual, something the EU referendum failed totally on.


----------



## kimthecat

Angry that Farage is going to talk to Barnier about Brexit . He has no position in the government so why ?


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> Angry that Farage is going to talk to Barnier about Brexit . He has no position in the government so why ?


As an MEP voted for by the UK public. The fact he never did his job at representing the UK or specifically fishermen is beside the point. Real answer of why is so he can stir things up and make headlines again.


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> Just stating a fact that other countries do hold referendums although not necessarily about the EU. Switzerland for example holds them on a fairly regular basis.
> 
> Hungary's referendum had nothing whatsoever to do with the free movement of EU citizens.
> 
> http://www.euronews.com/2016/10/01/all-you-need-to-know-about-hungary-s-refugee-referendum


That is true. Here e.g. gay marriages, eutanasia etc. issues can be initiated by 50 000 people´s signature. Then the current government hast to vote for that. But something as complicated as Brexit should not have been voted with so little information. That was just wrong and the plight UK is in now just proves it.

The problem of bad governments (like the one we have in Finland now) doesn´t get better with any referendum, and I don´t think Hungary´s current government is any good either.

What do you think personally, was that particular vote good for the Hungary or for all of us in EU? I know that the current government doesn´t like any criticism and uses media to support his own ideas, but do Hungarians really believe him?


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> As an MEP voted for by the UK public. The fact he never did his job at representing the UK or specifically fishermen is beside the point. Real answer of why is so he can stir things up and make headlines again.


Oh I see , he's still an MEP !, I though he had resigned or something. 
he certainly doesn't represent the millions who voted Leave as he claims .


----------



## Mirandashell

Him resign? You have got to be kidding. And with the pound dropping against the Euro, his wages are worth even more now. There are reports saying that he is going to carry on until the last minute.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Angry that Farage is going to talk to Barnier about Brexit . He has no position in the government so why ?


Well why not?
Corbyn is not in Government, yet him and Nicola Sturgeon went to see Barnier.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Oh I see , he's still an MEP !, I though he had resigned or something.
> he certainly doesn't represent the millions who voted Leave as he claims .


He resigned as UKIP leader but remains a MEP. Yes you're right he doesn't represent alot of Leave voters. Of course he is going to remain an MEP until the last minute. Nice fat pension coming his way from the EU Parliament paid for by the UK tax payer.


----------



## Mirandashell

stockwellcat. said:


> Well why not?
> Corbyn is not in Government, yet him and Nicola Sturgeon went to see Barnier.


Is that a serious question or are you on a wind-up?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Mirandashell said:


> Is that a serious question or are you on a wind-up?


Well tell me why he cannot see Barnier?

Corbyn and Sturgeon got to see Barnier and are not in Government.

Barnier can see who he wants and obviously did not object to seeing Farage.


----------



## Mirandashell

I never said he couldn't. I'm just surprised that you would consider him on a level with the Leader of the Opposition and the First Minister of Scotland.

He holds no real position of power and is pretty much a laughing stock in this country. Bernier must have had his own reasons for seeing him, probably involving some EU business (seeing as he is still an MEP) but let's not pretend Farage has any influence on anything these days. He's a desperate attention seeker who will even support a child molester to get his name in the media.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Mirandashell said:


> I never said he couldn't. I'm just surprised that you would consider him on a level with the Leader of the Opposition and the First Minister of Scotland.


No I did not put Sturgeon on the same level as him. All I said was that Corbyn and Sturgeon got to see Barnier so why couldn't he?

Any how he is seeing Barnier. Let's see what Barnier says after his meeting with Farage because no doubt there will be some kind of press release about the meeting like there has been with all the meetings the UK has had with Barnier or other EU leaders.


----------



## Mirandashell

stockwellcat. said:


> No I did not put Sturgeon on the same level as him. All I said was that Corbyn and Sturgeon got to see Barnier so why couldn't he?


That is putting him on the same level. You picked the two most powerful people not in the Cabinet to compare him to. Why didn't you pick someone lower down the food chain?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> No I did not put Sturgeon on the same level as him. All I said was that Corbyn and Sturgeon got to see Barnier so why couldn't he?


Well you should probably be able to recognise that Corbyn and Sturgeon have both been directly, personally elected as MPs. Farage never managed to do that despite trying. They are also elected leaders of politcal parties, something which can not be said of Farage now. His post, even as an MEP, was not actually due to people voting for him personally either.


----------



## Arnie83

Arnie83 said:


> "As prime minister, my job isn't just about what I think about something, it's actually about looking at what the view of the country is."





stockwellcat. said:


> That was about her comment on Fox Hunting nothing else. I love how your trying to twist it to look as if it is to do with Brexit.





Arnie83 said:


> You seriously don't think that description of her job should apply to all topics?


So ... ?


----------



## Magyarmum

MrsZee said:


> That is true. Here e.g. gay marriages, eutanasia etc. issues can be initiated by 50 000 people´s signature. Then the current government hast to vote for that. But something as complicated as Brexit should not have been voted with so little information. That was just wrong and the plight UK is in now just proves it.
> 
> The problem of bad governments (like the one we have in Finland now) doesn´t get better with any referendum, and I don´t think Hungary´s current government is any good either. * To put a question like that for a public vote with warnings like "Do you want more terrorism" is typical for any nazi party.* Our nazi party would want similar vote too, but I am very happy that other parties are a bit more responsible.
> 
> What do you think personally, was that particular vote good for the Hungary or for all of us in EU? I know that the current government doesn´t like any criticism and uses media to support his own ideas, but do Hungarians really believe him?


This was the question asked of the Hungarian people ....

*Referendum question[edit]*
The referendum was:

Akarja-e, hogy az Európai Unió az Országgyűlés hozzájárulása nélkül is előírhassa nem magyar állampolgárok Magyarországra történő kötelező betelepítését?[31]

In English:

Do you want to allow the European Union to mandate the resettlement of non-Hungarian citizens to Hungary without the approval of the National Assembly?[31]

A more literal translation into English, mirroring the Hungarian wording and inflections more closely:[_citation needed_]

Do you want the European Union to be able to mandate the obligatory resettlement of non-Hungarian citizens into Hungary even without the approval of the National Assembly?

no mention of terrorism or race unless you consider "non-Hungarian citizens" racist?

Maybe the following articles will answer your other question about Orban's credibility.

https://www.politico.eu/list/politico-28/viktor-orban/

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...n-media-hungarian-leader-democracy-antisemite

http://hungarianfreepress.com/2017/...win-three-fourths-majority-in-2018-elections/


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> This was the question asked of the Hungarian people ....
> 
> *Referendum question[edit]*
> The referendum was:
> 
> Akarja-e, hogy az Európai Unió az Országgyűlés hozzájárulása nélkül is előírhassa nem magyar állampolgárok Magyarországra történő kötelező betelepítését?[31]
> 
> In English:
> 
> Do you want to allow the European Union to mandate the resettlement of non-Hungarian citizens to Hungary without the approval of the National Assembly?[31]
> 
> A more literal translation into English, mirroring the Hungarian wording and inflections more closely:[_citation needed_]
> 
> Do you want the European Union to be able to mandate the obligatory resettlement of non-Hungarian citizens into Hungary even without the approval of the National Assembly? no mention of terrorism or race unless you consider "non-Hungarian citizens" racist? Maybe the following articles will answer your other question about Orban's credibility.
> https://www.politico.eu/list/politico-28/viktor-orban/
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...n-media-hungarian-leader-democracy-antisemite
> http://hungarianfreepress.com/2017/...win-three-fourths-majority-in-2018-elections/


I picked this from these quotes and this attitude to me is really dangerous: 
"The most popular topic in thinking today is trying to understand how systems that are not Western, not liberal, not liberal democracies and perhaps not even democracies can nevertheless make their nations successful." His examples are Singapore, Russia, Turkey, India (strangely) and China. "We have to abandon liberal methods and principles of organizing a society, as well as the liberal way to look at the world,"

Also the question about non-Hungarian was to me a racist one, as it was aimed at the refugees.

But what is your opinion? I know Orbyn is fairly popular in Hungary, though naturally not all Hungarian like his policies. Back here our Nazi -party (which I call all parties aiming the preserving the nation purely Finnish, British, Hungarian etc. ) split up, as they often do, and have lost the main bulk of their support. But then they couldn´t suppress media, like they are doing in China, Russia etc. and trying to do in Poland.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The Prime Minister is to create a new position in her cabinet reshuffle today (according to the news channels this morning) and it will be:

Cabinet minister for "No Deal" Brexit.

This is to prepare if there is a situation where there is a no deal scenario. The UK has to be prepared for this, it does not mean she is pushing for a no deal but it has always been an option. Of course over the next 10 months the UK will work towards trying to get a deal which has to be reached by October 2018.

https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-to-appoint-cabinet-member-for-no-deal-in-reshuffle-11199777


----------



## Goblin

So May's appointing someone to scapegoat others and divert attention from the mess and damage brexit is going to cause. What a shock. Would help if they actually had done some impact studies wouldn't it.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> Using your argument why do some have fond thoughts about the British Empire, something Adolf Hitler reportedly thought highly of and attempted to build his own. Germany certainly was, "great" in those days wasn't it, just as Britain once was.
> 
> As you say no one in their right minds would cherish the days of Soviet Communism nor Nazi Germany/fascist Italy etc. The EEC was established to ensure this would never happen again. Why do you think so many former Iron Country countries were quick to join? Why is Putin amongst others keen to see the EEC/EU collapse?
> 
> Brexit has brought this from the fringes into the mainstream.
> 
> It's all about a longing for the past.


And of course many Brexiteers would be willing to sacrifice the Good Friday agreement in NI too, back to the days of the troubles with troops on the streets.....


----------



## Arnie83

Farage is meeting Barnier today.

From LBC:

These are the three listeners' questions Nigel has picked to ask Mr Barnier:

- Does Michel Barnier understand why Britain voted for Brexit? Paul William-Smith

- What happens to the EU's economy if there's no trade deal with Britain? Sergio

- How does Michel Barnier view mass immigration into the EU coming across the Mediterranean and elsewhere? James​
My answers

- There are many reasons for the vote, some of which had nothing to do with the EU. Some people believed what they were told in the campaign. Some think that pooling sovereignty is not acceptable. Some think there are too many immigrants in the UK. Some believe the negative things they have been told about the EU over the years. Some don't like the decision making system in Brussels. There are probably other reasons too.

- The EU economy will suffer, but not nearly as much as the UK's. Trade between us represents about 3% of EU GDP and 13% of UK GDP. Although in monetary terms the hit to the EU may be slightly higher, they are much larger than the UK and can easily afford it, detrimental though it would be. The best way to avoid it is for the UK to stay in the single market and customs union, while still leaving the EU; like Norway.

- It isn't really relevant to Brexit since no migrants can come to the UK if they are not EU citizens, something which most of them will never be, while for others it will take about 7 years or more. Those who are then eligible will only qualify for free movement if they can get a job in the UK within 3 months - during which they don't qualify for benefits - and after which they can be sent back to their EU country of citizenship.

But looking at the question in wider terms a potential slight increase in EU workers a decade hence is preferable to a humanitarian disaster. And helping these people any way we can is a human duty. Unless you're someone like you, Nigel.​


----------



## stockwellcat.

James Brokenshire Secretary of Northern Ireland has just resigned ~ due to health reasons was the reason given.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Removed as the tweet on the Conservative Party Twitter page has been deleted.


----------



## Arnie83

Since you clearly have time on your hands this morning ...



Arnie83 said:


> "As prime minister, my job isn't just about what I think about something, it's actually about looking at what the view of the country is."





stockwellcat. said:


> That was about her comment on Fox Hunting nothing else. I love how your trying to twist it to look as if it is to do with Brexit.





Arnie83 said:


> You seriously don't think that description of her job should apply to all topics?


Have you had a chance to consider your answer to this yet?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Since you clearly have time on your hands this morning ...
> 
> Have you had a chance to consider your answer to this yet?


Theresa May will be pre-occupied with Brexit for the next 14 months trying to get a deal. Of course she has the UK to run hence why she is moving Cabinet Ministers around to more appropriate roles so they can look after the NHS, Transport, Northern Ireland etc.

Regarding taking the views of this country, she has as the people of the UK voted to leave the EU because a few people want to stay on the EU does not warrant another referendum. Both the Conservative Party and Labour Party have made it clear there won't be one.


----------



## KittenKong

Another fine mess.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42595875
No doubt Purchase Tax will be re-introduced in March 2019









And apart from the brief time Labour upped VAT to 25% for luxury items in the '70s, soon halved to 12.5% the Tories have increased it ever since.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Sir Patrick McLoughlin ex Conservative Party Chairman leaves Cabinet. So the Conservative Party Chairman job is up for grabs.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Theresa May will be pre-occupied with Brexit for the next 14 months trying to get a deal. Of course she has the UK to run hence why she is moving Cabinet Ministers around to more appropriate roles so they can look after the NHS, Transport, Northern Ireland etc.
> 
> Regarding taking the views of this country, she has as the people of the UK voted to leave the EU because a few people want to stay on the EU does not warrant another referendum. Both the Conservative Party and Labour Party have made it clear there won't be one.


What she said was "As prime minister, my job isn't just about what I think about something, *it's actually about looking at what the view of the country is*."

I think that's quite right. She takes into account what the country currently thinks, not what they thought 2 1/2 years earlier.

She determined - without a referendum - that the public did not want fox hunting to be reintroduced, and she acted on that information.

She should apply the same test to all government legislation. It's her job.

All I'm saying is that if it is clear that the public have changed their mind on Brexit, they should be listened to. That is only a controversial statement if one is afraid that it might happen.

Wouldn't you say?


----------



## Goblin

Find it frightening that May is appointing a no deal brexit unless it's a ploy to convince the EU that we would do it. Maybe the first thing they need to do is actually look at what it would mean for the UK. The EU already knows and it's hard to bluff when the other side knows the hand being played. Or maybe May is happy to damage the country for no real reason.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Find it frightening that May is appointing a no deal brexit unless it's a ploy to convince the EU that we would do it. Maybe the first thing they need to do is actually look at what it would mean for the UK. The EU already knows and it's hard to bluff when the other side knows the hand being played. Or maybe May is happy to damage the country for no real reason.
> 
> View attachment 341045​


Well this post had to be created and filled because it is one of the options on the table. A no deal scenario is a very real option and even the EU acknowledge this. It could well happen especially is the article 50 negotiations time out in October 2018. The UK has to prepare for such a scenario we'd be foolish not to.


----------



## KittenKong

From the Guardian comments page.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> Find it frightening that May is appointing a no deal brexit unless it's a ploy to convince the EU that we would do it. Maybe the first thing they need to do is actually look at what it would mean for the UK. The EU already knows and it's hard to bluff when the other side knows the hand being played. Or maybe May is happy to damage the country for no real reason.​


​
I'll wait and see what this role actually is, if anything, but at the moment I think it's just a sop to the Brexiteers and not even a see-through bluff to the EU.

If we choose to leave during this year with no agreement it would be economically very damaging and ideologically stupid.

EU citizens living and working in the UK would be illegal overnight, and vice versa. A hard border would go up in Ireland. We would not have agreed to continue trading arrangements with 60 nations outside the EU. Trade with the EU would be brought to a standstill. etc. etc.

We need a two year 'implementation period' to achieve a smooth transition, according to the UK government. It's already too late to leave with no deal and hope to avoid severe damage to the population of the UK.

But at least we would be the sovereign architects of our own downfall. And it would serve us right.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Steve Baker Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Exiting the European Union) is being rumoured to be getting the role of No Deal Brexit Minister in some news sources.

David Davis keeps his job by the way and was announced in the last 15 minutes.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Well this post had to be created and filled because it is one of the options on the table. A no deal scenario is a very real option and even the EU acknowledge this. It could well happen especially is the article 50 negotiations time out in October 2018. The UK has to prepare for such a scenario we'd be foolish not to.


Foolish sums up brexit doesn't it. Government stated "we have imact studies.." until they were asked for, then they don't exist. Wonder why. You still can't provide advantages to leaving which are based on reality and facts.



Arnie83 said:


> I'll wait and see what this role actually is, if anything, but at the moment I think it's just a sop to the Brexiteers and not even a see-through bluff to the EU.
> 
> If we choose to leave during this year with no agreement it would be economically very damaging and ideologically stupid...


Your comment doesn't actually consider the impact of things like Northern Ireland either with no deal meaning hard border.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> All I'm saying is that if it is clear that the public have changed their mind on Brexit, they should be listened to. That is only a controversial statement if one is afraid that it might happen.


We're just saying the same thing over and over again .
You know, many people changed their mind in the years after the last referendum in 1975 and weren't given the chance to vote again. 
This referendum was a very short while ago, 18 months ago , the public change their minds all the time . 
Yes I know this one isn't legally binding like the last. Like I said last time, maybe make it the best of three .


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> Your comment doesn't actually consider the impact of things like Northern Ireland either with no deal meaning hard border.


Arnie did mention the hard border.

Apart from that a brilliant post as usual Goblin.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> You still can't provide advantages to leaving which are based on reality and facts.


You have had plenty from many people in various threads since 24th June 2016. The only person that keeps repeating himself all the time is you because you chose to ignore what you didn't like hearing or reading. Fact is the UK is still leaving the EU either with or without a deal. Anyway as I said new year and the door to the past is closed as the we look forward not backwards.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> You have had plenty from many people in various threads since 24th June 2016. The only person that keeps repeating himself all the time is you because you chose to ignore what you didn't like hearing or reading.


Let's see the repetition.. You accuse us of ignoring you then state we cannot provide advantages of remaining. We not only give you reasoning again, when you ignore those and state we can't in a subsequent post, we link back to those reasons. Notice the trend.. reasoning provided and ignored as proven by posts vs simply repeating "I'm being ignored"?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen praises Health Secretary 'Jeremy Corbyn' for his work on the NHS, he meant Jeremy Hunt.

Whoops!


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> We're just saying the same thing over and over again .
> You know, many people changed their mind in the years after the last referendum in 1975 and weren't given the chance to vote again.
> This referendum was a very short while ago, 18 months ago , the public change their minds all the time .
> Yes I know this one isn't legally binding like the last. Like I said last time, maybe make it the best of three .


Difference is the current one, if it goes through, we cannot change our minds and get the bonuses we currently have. If we rejoin we would have to adopt schengen and the euro for a start. We would also probably lose veto capabilities. Surely it makes sense to actually be sure of what we were doing beforehand.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Surely it makes sense to actually be sure of what we were doing beforehand.


Oh but I am sure. I was sure before and on the 23rd June 2016 and I am still sure now. I was absolutely sure I was going to vote leave, you wouldn't have changed my mind and you still won't.

I am positively sure we have made the right decision. Yes if we go back we'd be forced to adopt the Euro, but leaving isn't about going backwards it's about going forward and leaving the past behind. Sorry you can go on and on but the decision was made on the 23rd June 2016 not just by me but by 17.4+ million British voters in all areas of the UK. You will find the UK Government are doing what they were instructed to do on the 23rd June 2016 as the majority of British People instructed them to do this by way of a referendum.

It will be an interesting 10 months (in 10 months time the EU want the negotiations finished) seeing if the EU are prepared to allow the UK to have a deal with them or not or if the UK simply walks away.


----------



## Guest

Arnie83 said:


> Find it frightening that May is appointing a no deal brexit unless it's a ploy to convince the EU that we would do it. Maybe the first thing they need to do is actually look at what it would mean for the UK. The EU already knows and it's hard to bluff when the other side knows the hand being played. Or maybe May is happy to damage the country for no real reason ​




Both May and EU knows that no deal will bring UK into chaos, that was the whole reason EU accepted UK´s promise to sort out the NI border. So the question is what is the real goal? Show that as no deal is the only way and it will cause chaos and destruction, lets call Brexit of, or put it into a halt for about 30 years.. I think May is playing time, knowing that the more facts there are revealed about Brexit, the more the people want to stay in EU. Nothing scarier than an option of non deal and the real consequences of it. I think May is trying to activate those most rational members of parliament to join forces and cancel the whole thing. That way when both Labour and Concervative MPs together make the Brexin decision, no one party could act as the savior of Britain. ​


Arnie83 said:


> I'll wait and see what this role actually is, if anything, but at the moment I think it's just a sop to the Brexiteers and not even a see-through bluff to the EU.
> If we choose to leave during this year with no agreement it would be economically very damaging and ideologically stupid.
> EU citizens living and working in the UK would be illegal overnight, and vice versa. A hard border would go up in Ireland. We would not have agreed to continue trading arrangements with 60 nations outside the EU. Trade with the EU would be brought to a standstill. etc. etc.
> We need a two year 'implementation period' to achieve a smooth transition, according to the UK government. It's already too late to leave with no deal and hope to avoid severe damage to the population of the UK.
> But at least we would be the sovereign architects of our own downfall. And it would serve us right.


Yep, no deal would be all that and worse. I doubt very much that it would happen, though, as Britain still is a nation, which has been known to be able to calculate pretty well what is best for business. Now I believe it is just a way of making the u-turn politically possible.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> We're just saying the same thing over and over again .
> You know, many people changed their mind in the years after the last referendum in 1975 and weren't given the chance to vote again.
> This referendum was a very short while ago, 18 months ago , the public change their minds all the time .
> Yes I know this one isn't legally binding like the last. Like I said last time, maybe make it the best of three .


It is becoming repetitive, and will continue to be so until, and if, we leave the EU.

But how, in a democracy, can anyone justify ignoring the Will of the People if it is plain *before we leave*, that the majority of the People no longer want to do so?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh but I am sure. I was sure before and on the 23rd June 2016 and I am still sure now. I was absolutely sure I was going to vote leave, you wouldn't have changed my mind and you still won't.
> 
> I am positively sure we have made the right decision. Yes if we go back we'd be forced to adopt the Euro, but leaving isn't about going backwards it's about going forward and leaving the past behind. Sorry you can go on and on but the decision was made on the 23rd June 2016 not just by me but by 17.4+ million British voters in all areas of the UK. You will find the UK Government are doing what they were instructed to do on the 23rd June 2016 as the majority of British People instructed them to do this by way of a referendum.
> 
> It will be an interesting 10 months (in 10 months time the EU want the negotiations finished) seeing if the EU are prepared to allow the UK to have a deal with them or not or if the UK simply walks away.


I don't think yours is the sort of mind that we are trying to change, because that obviously isn't going to happen.

But there are plenty of people who are already seeing how the Leave promises were false. There will be a lot more as we go through the next phase of negotiations as the economic consequences of leaving the single market and customs union become clear, and post-Brexit non-EU trade is revealed as less of a sunny upland and more of a minefield. And the Ireland border problem raises its head again, because that is far from resolved.

That's why so many hard-line Brexiteers are calling for us to walk away now; before even more of the consequences of doing so come to light.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh but I am sure. I was sure before and on the 23rd June 2016 and I am still sure now. I was absolutely sure I was going to vote leave, you wouldn't have changed my mind and you still won't.


Oh I know. Interesting you don't dispute my comments though instead reverting back to "will not change my mind" and "we won a vote".


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> But how, in a democracy, can anyone justify ignoring the Will of the People if it is plain *before we leave*, that the majority of the *People no longer want to do so?*


Proof please.
Online polls are not proof or are newspaper polls. Look at the poll by a leave voter hijacked by remainers that was hijacked by people that didn't even live in the UK and bots. The will of the people was shown on the 23rd June 2016 and even ministers have said there has been no significant change since the results were given on the 24th June 2016 (this was the poll that counted).

Sorry but suggesting polls in newspapers and on yougov are proof are not proof that people have changed their minds as these polls can be easily rigged as shown above.


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> Proof please.
> Online polls are not proof or are newspaper polls. Look at the poll by a leave voter hijacked by remainers that was hijacked by people that didn't even live in the UK and bots. The will of the people was shown on the 23rd June 2016 and even ministers have said there has been no significant change since the results were given on the 24th June 2016 (this was the poll that counted).
> 
> Sorry but suggesting polls in newspapers and on yougov are proof are not proof that people have changed their minds as these polls can be easily rigged as shown above.


Well, apart from the fact that now the majority is against Brexit. I´d say that is pretty significant. Also the direction of the change is significant, as are the overwhelming facts showing how much harm Brexit will cause to British. But it is a free world and you are free to disregard these and think all this is insignificant.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Proof please.
> Online polls are not proof or are newspaper polls. Look at the poll by a leave voter hijacked by remainers that was hijacked by people that didn't even live in the UK and bots. The will of the people was shown on the 23rd June 2016 and even ministers have said there has been no significant change since the results were given on the 24th June 2016 (this was the poll that counted).
> 
> Sorry but suggesting polls in newspapers and on yougov are proof are not proof that people have changed their minds as these polls can be easily rigged as shown above.


Firstly we're not there yet, and I wouldn't expect anything to change on the sort of figures that are currently being recorded. But there's a year until we (maybe) leave during which the news isn't going to be good as more facts emerge.

Secondly, notwithstanding the above, the figures, as @MrsZee points out, have been moving towards the Remain side for 6 months now.

And thirdly, as May said; her job is to take account what of the view of the public IS, not was.

What you are suggesting is not only ignoring the polls, but refusing to ask the public what their view is, and then claiming, in the light of that, that there is no proof of it having changed.

The Leavers have attempted to con a lot of people already, but that would really take the biscuit.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Proof please.
> Online polls are not proof or are newspaper polls. Look at the poll by a leave voter hijacked by remainers that was hijacked by people that didn't even live in the UK and bots.


And guess what the referendum was.. Simply a poll just as capable of being hijacked. Only have to look at the lies during campaigning to recognise that.


----------



## MiffyMoo

stockwellcat. said:


> Proof please.
> Online polls are not proof or are newspaper polls. Look at the poll by a leave voter hijacked by remainers that was hijacked by people that didn't even live in the UK and bots. The will of the people was shown on the 23rd June 2016 and even ministers have said there has been no significant change since the results were given on the 24th June 2016 (this was the poll that counted).
> 
> Sorry but suggesting polls in newspapers and on yougov are proof are not proof that people have changed their minds as these polls can be easily rigged as shown above.


Wow, I haven't been on here for weeks, and still the same conversation is going around. Just thought I'd pop in and cheer you up by saying that Alantra Partners (Spanish Bank) are considering moving their HQ from Madrid to..... London!


----------



## stockwellcat.

MiffyMoo said:


> Wow, I haven't been on here for weeks, and still the same conversation is going around. Just thought I'd pop in and cheer you up by saying that Alantra Partners (Spanish Bank) are considering moving their HQ from Madrid to..... London!


Spanish have seen the UK as an opportunity to have their bank here


----------



## Goblin

Maybe you should do a bit of preliminary investigation. First it's not a bank. It's a global investment banking and asset management firm. They've actually taken over a UK company for 30million. In other words, UK has lost a firm and it's now in control of someone else from another country. That's obviously how we take back control.


----------



## stockwellcat.

This thread is like the rest. Like I promised myself at the beginning of this year. Time to move on.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Maybe you should do a bit of preliminary investigation. First it's not a bank. It's a global investment banking and asset management firm. They've actually taken over a UK company for 30million. In other words, UK has lost a firm and it's now in control of someone else from another country. That's obviously how we take back control.


As pleasant as ever, I see

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...nk-is-said-to-mull-london-move-despite-brexit


----------



## KittenKong

MiffyMoo said:


> Wow, I haven't been on here for weeks, and still the same conversation is going around. Just thought I'd pop in and cheer you up by saying that Alantra Partners (Spanish Bank) are considering moving their HQ from Madrid to..... London!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42603273









If you're right, jobs for the bankers but not the working class.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42603273
> View attachment 341094
> 
> 
> If you're right, jobs for the bankers but not the working class.


Reading a Guardian article on this, it seems to be because they are changing the shifts due to a decline in the sales of Astras


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...nk-is-said-to-mull-london-move-despite-brexit


You notice that the link you gave points out that it is actually pointing out the negative far more than the positive. Then again http://www.catalystcf.co.uk/news/catalyst-and-alantra-combine is also quite telling. A foreign company takes over a UK company to give it a foothold. It still retains it's international status and people across the globe which would include things like passporting rights within the EU no matter what. According to your link it employs a total of 350 staff only some of which may be moved. So tell me how does that compensate for the jobs lost due to Brexit even within the sector? It's also interesting that the idea of the move caused it's shares to drop isn't it. It's gambling but one where it doesn't lose badly if it has to pull out later.

Let's see.. some portion of 350 vs 4000 from JPMorgan, 4000 Deutsche Bank, 1500 UBS, 1000 Goldman sachs, 1000 HSBC, 400 Société Générale, 300 Morgan Stanley, 300 Bank of America Corp, 250 Citigroup, 150 Barclays and 100 from Nomura.

It's also not that much of a shock that some firms may well move HQs to the UK. HQ's do not mean jobs or investment. EU has after all been trying to strengthen rules regarding things like rampant bonuses, corporate tax avoidance etc.


----------



## cheekyscrip

I still wonder how getting your own country poorer and divided, vassal to USA, led by two faced liars like BoJo , incompetent dummies like Davis, clowns like Farage, sponsored by greedy b....... like Murdoch or Banks, playing to the hands of Putin could be patriotic?

I would call it “ loss of survival instinct”.


As soon as people get poorer and jobs will be lost not even a blue passport will make them happy!!!

Many in the end will wake up to the truth.

Some will not, but then I met people who to the end praised Stalin, Hitler etc... They were actually ordinary folk, but made up their mind , invested lots of emotions in it and just could not bring themselves to accept they might have been wrong.

No deal?

You must be joking!!!

Oh yes, many foreign investors are poised to buy what is still left for picking.

Take control - you must be really kidding yourselves.


----------



## Goblin

cheekyscrip said:


> I would call it " loss of survival instinct".


Well we do celebrate things like the charge of the light brigade and pretend it's positive.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Goblin said:


> Well we do celebrate things like the charge of the light brigade and pretend it's positive.


Well, it was heroic...

Dunkirk.

Martyrdom.

Brexit: Some would benefit, majority will not, but people were simply deceived.

As to our New Hope - seems I am not the only one who does not trust him!


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> You notice that the link you gave points out that it is actually pointing out the negative far more than the positive. Then again http://www.catalystcf.co.uk/news/catalyst-and-alantra-combine is also quite telling. A foreign company takes over a UK company to give it a foothold. It still retains it's international status and people across the globe which would include things like passporting rights within the EU no matter what. According to your link it employs a total of 350 staff only some of which may be moved. So tell me how does that compensate for the jobs lost due to Brexit even within the sector? It's also interesting that the idea of the move caused it's shares to drop isn't it. It's gambling but one where it doesn't lose badly if it has to pull out later.
> 
> It's also not that much of a shock that some firms may well move HQs to the UK. HQ's do not mean jobs or investment. EU has after all been trying to strengthen rules regarding things like rampant bonuses and corporate tax avoidance etc.


They don't need a passport .

It looks like it's a great move for both, so good on them. Of course Alantra want to move into the UK market, we have some of the best and most knowledgeable investors in the world. In a recent survey, London was the third most visited city for issuers to come to investors for 61.4% of responders, behind New York and Boston. The next most popular city was Frankfurt at no. 7 for 32% of responders.

Let's wait and see about the losses. I already posted, a while back that these numbers being bandied about are hugely over egged, so we just have to wait and see.

Surely your final paragraph pretty much contradicts everything else that you have said. Prior to that your rhetoric has been "all the bankers are fleeing", final paragraph "all the bankers are coming over here because of bonuses". Well which one is it?

P.S. a lot of my friends are bankers and not one of them is moving. Although one did admit that he would quite like to retire to New Zealand (caveat that he would be going ASAP if Corbyn got in)


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> This thread is like the rest. Like I promised myself at the beginning of this year. Time to move on.


Really? Brexit hasn't even happened yet and at the time of posting nobody knows exactly what Brexit will mean.

Will May get a deal? Will it be a hard Brexit with a hard Irish border of the past? Could the government collapse and force a second referendum? Anything could happen.

This time last year TM continued to insist they would be no early General Election! Then look what happened!


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Let's wait and see about the losses. I already posted, a while back that these numbers being bandied about are hugely over egged, so we just have to wait and see.


Oh dear.. shame the numbers are showing what is being moved, not possibilities.



> Surely your final paragraph pretty much contradicts everything else that you have said. Prior to that your rhetoric has been "all the bankers are fleeing", final paragraph "all the bankers are coming over here because of bonuses". Well which one is it?


Hardly.. You like exaggeration don't you. "all bankers fleeing".. really. As for the suggestion it contradicts.. an HQ only needs a "couple" of bodies to handle things. Actual workers lost, "caretakers" in place to fulfill legal requirements.



> P.S. a lot of my friends are bankers and not one of them is moving. Although one did admit that he would quite like to retire to New Zealand (caveat that he would be going ASAP if Corbyn got in)


Know a lot of friends in multiple industries.. none see any advantages to leaving the EU now even though some voted leave. Bet they would love to know all the advantages to leaving as well rather than "oh look, it's not as bad as it could be".


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Oh dear.. shame the numbers are showing what is being moved, not possibilities.
> 
> Hardly.. HQ only needs a couple of bodies to handle things. Actual workers lost, "caretakers" in place to fulfill legal requirements.
> 
> Know a lot of friends in multiple industries.. none see any advantages to leaving the EU now even though some voted leave.


Post the actual numbers then. You still seem a tad confused, but I guess you'll just start yelling at me to show the benefits again.

Anyway, off to sleep now


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Post the actual numbers then.


Already did


----------



## stockwellcat.

> This time last year TM continued to insist they would be no early General Election! Then look what happened!


This time last year Gina Miller was in the Supreme Court trying to stop Brexit but ended up helping correct the Government. Oh and look what happened. The Government done exactly what the Supreme Court ruled and had a vote in Parliement on triggering Article 50 which got voted through with an overwhelming MAJORITY. There was no GE this time last year, that was a bit later on.

Thank You Gina Miller for helping the leave campaigners and Government as you helped set the ball in motion with article 50 (Another remainers attempt to stop Brexit back fired).


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> I do. It means leave. I did give the dictionary definitions of this and meanings.
> 
> This time last year Gina Miller was in the Supreme Court helping correct the Government. Oh an look what happened. The Government done exactly what the Supreme Court ruled and had a vote in Parliement on triggering Article 50 which got voted through with an overwhelming MAJORITY. There was no GE this time last year, that was a bit later on.
> 
> Thank You Gina Miller for helping the leave campaigners and Government as you helped set the ball in motion with article 50 (Another remainers attempt to stop Brexit back fired).


It means no NHS. It means a race to the bottom for standards across the board. It means disaster capitalism on steroids. And hard brexiteers like you will have to own it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> It means no NHS. It means a race to the bottom for standards across the board. It means disaster capitalism on steroids. And hard brexiteers like you will have to own it.


Own what?
I was asked a question by the Government on a Ballot sheet and answered it. The NHS was in a huge mess well before Brexit ever existed.

Your crystal ball working this morning as you're predicting the future again.


----------



## noushka05

This country is disintegrating before our eyes & people still trust this government to deliver a brexit which will be good for us. Its incredible. Trump supports are the same, like Theresa May- they actually think hes doing a good job for their country:Wideyed:Wacky

*Laura Kuenssberg*‏Verified [email protected]*bbclaurak* 12h12 hours ago

Senior Tory MP says 'this resfhuffle is embarrassing- far from asserting her authority 
...its just highlighted how weak the PM is'

.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Own what?
> I was asked a question by the Government on a Ballot sheet and answered it. The NHS was in a huge mess well before Brexit ever existed.
> 
> Your crystal ball working this morning as you're predicting the future again.


Own it all - you want out of the EU whatever the costs - and _we know _the costs are going to be high. Own it.
_
The @*TheLancet* is one of the world's most prestigioius #*Medical* journals. In this article, health experts evaluated every type of #*Brexit* and tried to give assess how it would impact the #*NHS*. Conclusion: EVERY type of Brexit damages our NHS...

._


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> This country is disintegrating before our eyes & people still trust this government to deliver a brexit which will be good for us. Its incredible. Trump supports are the same, like Theresa May- they actually think hes doing a good job for their country:Wideyed:Wacky
> 
> *Laura Kuenssberg*‏Verified [email protected]*bbclaurak* 12h12 hours ago
> 
> Senior Tory MP says 'this resfhuffle is embarrassing- far from asserting her authority
> ...its just highlighted how weak the PM is'
> 
> .


The reshuffle will continue this morning.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Own it all - you want out of the EU whatever the costs - and _we know _the costs are going to be high. Own it.
> _
> The @*TheLancet* is one of the world's most prestigioius #*Medical* journals. In this article, health experts evaluated every type of #*Brexit* and tried to give assess how it would impact the #*NHS*. Conclusion: EVERY type of Brexit damages our NHS...
> 
> ._


All I accept is that I was asked a question on a ballot sheet on 23rd June 2016 and I answered it. I didn't know what I voted for would win until around 5am on the 24th June 2016. That's all I accept.

To me this is what Brexit means: We leave the EU and forge our own new future without Brussels and we leave the Tyranny of The ECJ.

Benefits for me leaving the EU (Paying attention @Goblin?):

No more governance from the EU's ECJ.
No more being ignored by the EU's Parliament.
Being able to forge our own countries future.
No more paying into the EU's Budget.
We will have the ability to make our own trade deals.
Being able to forge our own better animal welfare laws, better as in work on the EU ones and taking them further.
Others @Goblin have their own reasons why they wanted to leave. You have to accept this and tough if you don't.


----------



## noushka05

I really admire & respect these people who are big enough to admit they were wrong.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I really admire & respect these people who are big enough to admit they were wrong


Remain voters pretending to be leave voters on facebook and twitter making out they voted leave. Is this the new lows of the remain side.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Any how guys and girls this thread in my view is counter productive as it is doing what all the other threads on this topic have done and that is go around in circles. I am keeping my New Years resolution and saying that I am looking forward to the future not reminiscing on the past and what could have been.

The Referendum has been done and finished on the 23rd June 2016.
Gina Millers case has been done and instead of stopping Brexit she helped move article 50 forward.
The UK successfully completed article 50 withdrawal negotiations phase 1.
The negotiations are now on the transition period (behind the scenes) and will be complete by March 2018 when the future releationship with the EU negotiations will begin.
Of course it is correct to prepare the UK for a no deal brexit in case the UK does not get a deal.
So the UK is on target to complete the UK-EU article 50 negotiations and we will find out what the article 50 negotiations have produced in October 2018. That's what I call this country moving forward, forward to leaving the EU.

Seeing as certain members insist they are correct because they think they are superior (producing newspapers, magazines, twitter feeds, facebook posts, newspaper surveys, online surveys that can be easily hijacked and have been in the past, and pop up so called self proclaimed pretend experts as evidence and not real evidence) than those that voted opposite to what they did or did not vote for what ever reason, I will be giving this thread a wide birth from now on. Yes @Goblin I am gone as I have better things to do with my time this year.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Already did


And way back I posted rebuttal, but I understand how it's inconvenient for you


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> It means no NHS. It means a race to the bottom for standards across the board. It means disaster capitalism on steroids. And hard brexiteers like you will have to own it.


So silly


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> This country is disintegrating before our eyes & people still trust this government to deliver a brexit which will be good for us. Its incredible. Trump supports are the same, like Theresa May- they actually think hes doing a good job for their country:Wideyed:Wacky
> 
> *Laura Kuenssberg*‏Verified [email protected]*bbclaurak* 12h12 hours ago
> 
> Senior Tory MP says 'this resfhuffle is embarrassing- far from asserting her authority
> ...its just highlighted how weak the PM is'
> 
> .


The Tory reshuffle, whilst a complete waste of time, has nothing to do with Brexit


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> I really admire & respect these people who are big enough to admit they were wrong.


Ooh look, I can screenshot too! *high five*


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> I really admire & respect these people who are big enough to admit they were wrong.


You can tell that the NHS is having an effect, because all the people who changed their minds have got _really_ bad eyesight.


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> The Tory reshuffle, whilst a complete waste of time, has nothing to do with Brexit


I admit I was wondering why we got live updates on the reshuffle in this thread yesterday!

I think it was probably because of the upcoming Minister for Failing in the Negotiations, but I guess that's today.


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Ooh look, I can screenshot too! *high five*


Interesting, although the (untrustworthy) polls suggest that there are more going from Leave to Remain than the other way.

(Plus, of course: "Remain Leave voters pretending to be leave voters on facebook and twitter making out they voted leave remain. Is this the new lows of the remain leave side." )

It's going to be a bit of a roller-coaster over the next 9 months I think. If the negotiations look like producing a soft Brexit, I predict a swing towards Leave, while indications of a hard Brexit will increase the current Remain lead. A poll right now, I suspect, would show a narrowing of that lead, if not a reversal of it.


----------



## KittenKong

cheekyscrip said:


> Well, it was heroic...
> 
> Dunkirk.
> 
> Martyrdom.
> 
> Brexit: Some would benefit, majority will not, but people were simply deceived.
> 
> As to our New Hope - seems I am not the only one who does not trust him!
> View attachment 341097


The problem with Labour, as with the Tories, is that they see themselves as a major party who publicly avoid close working relationships with other, or "Rival" parties except in rare circumstances.

Cameron didn't want a coalition with the Lib Dems in 2010, but didn't have much choice given the Election result. He always said he'd prefer to govern outright. He had that opportunity in 2015.

Corbyn obviously believes he'll goven outright after the next election. This attitude really frustrates me, as does his "Labour respects the referendum result" policy. It was the same in the '80s with Kinnock. Thatcher could have gone in 1987 if they formed a progressive alliance with the Lib Dems etc. At it turned out people had to wait another 10 years for a Labour government, but only due to The Sun backing them.

How does Corbyn believe he'll save the NHS etc. if determined to press ahead with the Tory hard Brexit policy? How will that prevent a hard border in Ireland etc. etc.?

With all the negative publicity already directed towards him that will also make others question his true motives. It'll guarantee the Tories winning the next election.

But like Kinnock he'll still have his MP wage so he'll be Ok....


----------



## Magyarmum

A couple of interesting article from Euronews

http://www.euronews.com/2018/01/04/ireland-and-hungary-reject-eu-wide-tax-harmonisation-moves

http://www.euronews.com/2018/01/08/eu-chief-calls-for-bigger-budget-despite-brexit-loss

and Politico

https://www.politico.eu/article/commission-gets-glimpse-of-post-brexit-eu-budget-horrors/


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> A couple of interesting article from Euronews
> 
> http://www.euronews.com/2018/01/04/ireland-and-hungary-reject-eu-wide-tax-harmonisation-moves
> 
> http://www.euronews.com/2018/01/08/eu-chief-calls-for-bigger-budget-despite-brexit-loss
> 
> and Politico
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/commission-gets-glimpse-of-post-brexit-eu-budget-horrors/


None of this shows how the UK will benefit from leaving though does it?


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> Interesting, although the (untrustworthy) polls suggest that there are more going from Leave to Remain than the other way.
> 
> (Plus, of course: "Remain Leave voters pretending to be leave voters on facebook and twitter making out they voted leave remain. Is this the new lows of the remain leave side." )
> 
> It's going to be a bit of a roller-coaster over the next 9 months I think. If the negotiations look like producing a soft Brexit, I predict a swing towards Leave, while indications of a hard Brexit will increase the current Remain lead. A poll right now, I suspect, would show a narrowing of that lead, if not a reversal of it.


Agree. I think that after the 2010 election, I decided that polls were just something to fill a news gap, but ultimately to be taken with a pinch of salt.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Ooh look, I can screenshot too! *high five*
> View attachment 341123
> View attachment 341124
> View attachment 341125
> View attachment 341126
> View attachment 341127


Yes its easy to believe loads now wish they'd voted leave as things are going so well :Hilarious (& actually I don't have a clue how to screenshot )

*Grimsby seeks "Brexit exemption" for port industry despite voting 70% OUT - *https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...mption-port-industry-despite-voting-70/08/11/

It didn't go down too well on twitter.










There are posts like these all over twitter - you can check out their accounts to see they are bona fide.

*Jackie Carroll #FBPE*‏@*CarrollJackie99* 26 Nov 2017
_
To all remainers. I sincerely apologise for my vote contributing to the #*Farce* #*Chaos* #*CliffPlunder* that is Brexit. 
I bitterly regret my decision to rid the younger generations of a worthwhile future. 
I bow my head in shame._



MiffyMoo said:


> So silly


Not silly, these are the realities of brexit. If people still want brexit whatever the cost they should at least have the decency to own it when we all suffer for their decision - its not like they can claim they 'didn't know' when there is a mountain range of evidence to show brexit is already a disaster & its going to get a whole lot worse once we leave.

Its a choice between high EU standards or a race to the bottom in a trade deal with the USA.
*Exclusive: UK demands secrecy in Brexit trade talks with US*

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/exclusive-uk-demands-secrecy-brexit-trade-talks-us/

We can't have Brexit AND our NHS. I know which is most important to me, I'll have nothing to reproach myself for when its gone.

*Mike Galsworthy #FBPE*‏@*mikegalsworthy*  Jan 7

_3 current Brexit problems for NHS: - EU nurses leaving up 67% (Brexit) & EU nurse recruitment fallen 96% (Brexit & IELTS) -
£ fallen 15% increases NHS purchases by ~£900m/pa - GDP growth slowdown (top of G7 to bottom)
& Brexit civil service cost extends austerity measures_


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> The problem with Labour, as with the Tories, is that they see themselves as a major party who publicly avoid close working relationships with other, or "Rival" parties except in rare circumstances.
> 
> Cameron didn't want a coalition with the Lib Dems in 2010, but didn't have much choice given the Election result. He always said he'd prefer to govern outright. He had that opportunity in 2015.
> 
> Corbyn obviously believes he'll goven outright after the next election. This attitude really frustrates me, as does his "Labour respects the referendum result" policy. It was the same in the '80s with Kinnock. Thatcher could have gone in 1987 if they formed a progressive alliance with the Lib Dems etc. At it turned out people had to wait another 10 years for a Labour government, but only due to The Sun backing them.
> 
> How does Corbyn believe he'll save the NHS etc. if determined to press ahead with the Tory hard Brexit policy? How will that prevent a hard border in Ireland etc. etc.?
> 
> With all the negative publicity already directed towards him that will also make others question his true motives. It'll guarantee the Tories winning the next election.
> 
> But like Kinnock he'll still have his MP wage so he'll be Ok....


It's exremely frustrating that Leave and Remain were all cross party, but now it's just turned into lots of childish bickering. If only they could put their petty squabbles and desires for vote winning sound bites aside to actually work together to do the best job possible. Once that's done, then they can go back to behaving like snipey children


----------



## noushka05

*Dr Lauren Gavaghan #NHSLove #FBPE*‏Verified [email protected]*DancingTheMind* Jan 6

Dr Lauren Gavaghan #NHSLove #FBPE Retweeted Judith #NHSLove #FBPE

EU nursing applications







90% since Brexit ref. EU staff leaving. NHS already 40,000* nurses short.
Brexit will be catastrophic for the NHS & open it up to lucrative US-UK trade deals (private healthcare)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/01/25/number-eu-nurses-coming-uk-falls-90-per-cent-since-brexit-vote/…








 *Judith #NHSLove #FBPE*‏@*cats2home* Jan 6

If you think this winter's #*NHSCrisis* is bad imagine this x3 after we #*Brexit* & make the right decision to #*Remain* in the EU & #*SaveOurNHS*
from the catastrophe that is #*Brexit* & the greed that is the #*Tories* !!


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Yes its easy to believe loads now wish they'd voted leave as things are going so well :Hilarious (& actually I don't have a clue how to screenshot )
> 
> *Grimsby seeks "Brexit exemption" for port industry despite voting 70% OUT - *https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...mption-port-industry-despite-voting-70/08/11/
> 
> It didn't go down too well on twitter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are posts like these all over twitter - you can check out their accounts to see they are bona fide.
> 
> *Jackie Carroll #FBPE*‏@*CarrollJackie99* 26 Nov 2017
> _
> To all remainers. I sincerely apologise for my vote contributing to the #*Farce* #*Chaos* #*CliffPlunder* that is Brexit.
> I bitterly regret my decision to rid the younger generations of a worthwhile future.
> I bow my head in shame._
> 
> Not silly, these are the realities of brexit. If people still want brexit whatever the cost they should at least have the decency to own it when we all suffer for their decision - its not like they can claim they 'didn't know' when there is a mountain range of evidence to show brexit is already a disaster & its going to get a whole lot worse once we leave.
> 
> Its a choice between high EU standards or a race to the bottom in a trade deal with the USA.
> *Exclusive: UK demands secrecy in Brexit trade talks with US*
> 
> Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/exclusive-uk-demands-secrecy-brexit-trade-talks-us/
> 
> We can't have Brexit AND our NHS. I know which is most important to me, I'll have nothing to reproach myself for when its gone.
> 
> *Mike Galsworthy #FBPE*‏@*mikegalsworthy*  Jan 7
> 
> _3 current Brexit problems for NHS: - EU nurses leaving up 67% (Brexit) & EU nurse recruitment fallen 96% (Brexit & IELTS) -
> £ fallen 15% increases NHS purchases by ~£900m/pa - GDP growth slowdown (top of G7 to bottom)
> & Brexit civil service cost extends austerity measures_


You do know that the EU/US TTIP negotiations are all done in secret as well, right?

Judging by this, I think that the panic attacks are a bit much


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> A couple of interesting article from Euronews
> 
> http://www.euronews.com/2018/01/04/ireland-and-hungary-reject-eu-wide-tax-harmonisation-moves
> 
> http://www.euronews.com/2018/01/08/eu-chief-calls-for-bigger-budget-despite-brexit-loss
> 
> and Politico
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/commission-gets-glimpse-of-post-brexit-eu-budget-horrors/


I thought this was interesting from the second one ...

"The goal, if we want to increase the EU's budget, is not to increase the overall European public expenditure, it is to show that there is, by sharing some sovereignty, and thus by putting in certain financial means, greater efficiency and a better control of public expenditure," commented Jean Arthuis, a French MEP from the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe.​
That seems to make sense to me, though of course were we to stay in we could choose whether to be involved in that or not. And with our apparent horror of sharing sovereignty, it's likely that we wouldn't.

It's also worth remembering that the total EU budget 2017 was a little approx €157 bn (£139 bn) while, for comparison, the UK budget was £814 bn.


----------



## KittenKong

They have the cheek to call us, "Remoaners".


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> You do know that the EU/US TTIP negotiations are all done in secret as well, right?
> 
> Judging by this, I think that the panic attacks are a bit much
> 
> View attachment 341139


FYI TTIP was defeated  (for now). TTIP was one of the main reasons I (& many other environmentalist, progressives voted to remain) Experts warned us the best way to defeat TTIP was collectively en-masse with our European neighbours - I did post about it prior to the referendum - several times.

The tories have been the biggest cheerleaders for TTIP  Alone with a tory government - we have absolutely no chance of defeating a TTIP style trade agreement. Some brexieers on here are actually celebrating the prospect of us joining the TPP:Wtf

Disaster capitalism here we come

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...parliamentary-scrutiny?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other










_
We are heading for TTIP on steroids. Contrary to the hopes of some Leave supporters, 
Brexit might save Europe from TTIP, but not Britain_.

https://theconversation.com/why-ttip-will-live-on-but-not-for-the-eu-61718

In case you hadn't noticed the NHS is melt down, the staffing crisis is making a dire situation far worse. Experts tell us this loss of EU staff is having a terrible impact - but what do they know?. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/02/european-nurses-midwives-leaving-uk-nhs-brexit-vote

When will people listen to real experts? When its too late probably. The USA & the UK are paying the price.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> FYI TTIP was defeated  (for now). TTIP was one of the main reasons I (& many other environmentalist, progressives voted to remain) Experts warned us the best way to defeat TTIP was collectively en-masse with our European neighbours - I did post about it prior to the referendum - several times.
> 
> The tories have been the biggest cheerleaders for TTIP  Alone with a tory government - we have absolutely no chance of defeating a TTIP style trade agreement. Some brexieers on here are actually celebrating the prospect of us joining the TPP:Wtf
> 
> Disaster capitalism here we come
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...parliamentary-scrutiny?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> We are heading for TTIP on steroids. Contrary to the hopes of some Leave supporters,
> Brexit might save Europe from TTIP, but not Britain_.
> 
> https://theconversation.com/why-ttip-will-live-on-but-not-for-the-eu-61718
> 
> In case you hadn't noticed the NHS is melt down, the staffing crisis is making a dire situation far worse. Experts tell us this loss of EU staff is having a terrible impact - but what do they know?. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/02/european-nurses-midwives-leaving-uk-nhs-brexit-vote
> 
> When will people listen to real experts? When its too late probably. The USA & the UK are paying the price.


I know about TTIP; you have swerved the conversation from the fact that they held those discussions in secret. Can I assume you were similarly horrified when you found out that the EU were holding secret trade meetings?


----------



## KittenKong

From the Guardian:





































Negotiating to keep the benefits of the single market? A "jobs first" Brexit? Don't be absurd!

A "Best possible deal" borrowed from May is also not good enough. Why go for something that's clearly going to be inferior to what many enjoy now (at least until March 2019)?

Well, I'll resign my AA membership but ask if they'll still assist me in the event of a breakdown. How far do you think it will go?

Let's face it. Brexit will be a disaster. The Tories wanting to push the country over a cliff edge is one thing but why does Corbyn want to contribute to their mess?

Why respect a vote based on xenophobia and lies? I for one certainly don't.

We were promised payment protection with PPI. Perhaps we should respect that too even though it proved to be untrue.

Full credit to the SNP, Greens, Lib Dems and Plaid Cymru for their efforts. I only hope Corbyn will reconsider.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> None of this shows how the UK will benefit from leaving though does it?


I posted the article for interest purposes only, not to prove anything!.



noushka05 said:


> *Dr Lauren Gavaghan #NHSLove #FBPE*‏Verified [email protected]*DancingTheMind*
> Jan 6
> 
> Dr Lauren Gavaghan #NHSLove #FBPE Retweeted Judith #NHSLove #FBPE
> 
> EU nursing applications
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 90% since Brexit ref. EU staff leaving. NHS already 40,000* nurses short.
> Brexit will be catastrophic for the NHS & open it up to lucrative US-UK trade deals (private healthcare)http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/01/25/number-eu-nurses-coming-uk-falls-90-per-cent-since-brexit-vote/…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Judith #NHSLove #FBPE*‏@*cats2home* Jan 6
> 
> If you think this winter's #*NHSCrisis* is bad imagine this x3 after we #*Brexit* & make the right decision to #*Remain* in the EU & #*SaveOurNHS*
> from the catastrophe that is #*Brexit* & the greed that is the #*Tories* !!


Good it's been a one way traffic for far too long! Now maybe Hungarian doctors, dentists and nurses will come back and work in the extremely understaffed and overworked Hungarian NHS!

Last year a friend of mine who's the Administrator for a group of Hungarian NHS dental practices was telling me that it's impossible to recruit a newly qualified dental surgeon from any of the Hungarian universities because they're all off to work in either Germany or the UK!


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I thought this was interesting from the second one ...
> 
> "The goal, if we want to increase the EU's budget, is not to increase the overall European public expenditure, it is to show that there is, by sharing some sovereignty, and thus by putting in certain financial means, greater efficiency and a better control of public expenditure," commented Jean Arthuis, a French MEP from the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe.​
> That seems to make sense to me, though of course were we to stay in we could choose whether to be involved in that or not. And with our apparent horror of sharing sovereignty, it's likely that we wouldn't.
> 
> It's also worth remembering that the total EU budget 2017 was a little approx €157 bn (£139 bn) while, for comparison, the UK budget was £814 bn.


I don't think any of the V4 would stand for sharing some sovereignty, after all that's basically what the argument about taking in refugees is all about!

//www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-hungary-minister/hungary-rejects-dead-end-street-of-ceding-powers-to-eu-idUSKCN1BO1GP


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> I know about TTIP; you have swerved the conversation from the fact that they held those discussions in secret. Can I assume you were similarly horrified when you found out that the EU were holding secret trade meetings?


Absolutely I was! I have been trying to raise awareness about the dangers posed by TTIP years _before _the referendum.

Too many posts to mention but here are a couple of threads I made.

*Corporate America primed for GLOBAL TAKEOVER!. TTIP*
Discussion in 'General Chat' started by noushka05, Aug 23, 2015.

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...-global-takeover-ttip.407316/#post-1064282475

*Is your MP fighting to exempt NHS from TTIP?*
Discussion in 'General Chat' started by noushka05, Nov 4, 2014.
https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/is-your-mp-fighting-to-exempt-nhs-from-ttip.384068/

Here are some posts before & after the referendum.

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/a-date-has-been-announced.422582/page-3#post-1064467744

_While this government are the greatest champions of TTIP, its looking that way. :/ TTIP was the main reason I initially considered voting out. It absolutely terrifies me. However, having listened to those I trust I've been swayed into thinking we have a better chance of fighting the deal collectively with the rest of Europe.

This is a good article on why voting out wont save us from TTIP & why we can only save ourselves as part of an EU wide movement -_
_http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...tip-by-leaving-europe-heres-why-a6853876.html
And the article by George Monbiot on why hes voting in. (it was George who broke the TTIP_ story to the MSM) "_*I'm starting to hate the EU. But I will vote to stay in" http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...tip-by-leaving-europe-heres-why-a6853876.html*_

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/is-your-mp-fighting-to-exempt-nhs-from-ttip.384068/

_Currently voting IN. If France stops TTIP, I will definitely be voting IN. I am far more afraid of being at the mercy of ultra right wingers than staying in the EU which at least offers us some protection. The far rights rabid obsession with 'deregulating' everything that protects us & our environment is terrifying. Many of the key leavers (Johnson, Gove, Lawson. Farage, Paterson & so on) don't even believe in climate change. There is no hope at all of saving our environment if we leave the EU
https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out.426589/#post-1064534639

_

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out.426589/page-100#post-1064584129
_My God, you think this is a good thing? This is a takeover of our country by corporate America. Do you not understand how terrifying this is Kim? Have you not heard of TTIP? And they said the remain experts were just scaremongering when they warned this would happen if we voted brexit Everything we were warned about is coming to pass._

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/walloon-loons.435733/page-3#post-1064686455

_Can I just say, one of the biggest issues for me in the run up to the referendum was which was the best chance we had of defeating TTIP & CETA - by remaining in the EU or by leaving it (I posted about this several times on the referendum thread). The experts said our best chance was to remain as the hard right wing government we would be left with would have us locked into some dodgy trade deal at the first opportunity. And TTIP was indeed defeated within the EU- & now its looking hopeful CETA will be defeated too._

_The point to me is that many voted out of Europe believing we were dictated to by the EU. Little Wallonia shows this is not the case as parliaments can use their veto. This is actually a huge victory for democracy. Millions of ordinary people have been fighting to stop TTIP & CETA - & they have won (so far).

_
This is a must read - I posted this in May 2016. Project fear?
_https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/nhs-how-much-truth.426525/#post-1064533790

*Our NHS Is Under Threat From the Tories, Not the EU*
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/caroline-lucas/lord-owen-speech-eu-referendum_b_9625578.html
This morning David Owen gave a speech in which he claimed that Britain needs to leave the EU to protect the our Health Service. I have great respect for his work on the NHS but I disagree with Owen about leaving the EU - which will not remove the real threat to our health service. The thrust of his argument is that our health service is under threat from the European Union because of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) - a mammoth trade deal being negotiated between the EU and the USA. TTIP is indeed dreadful and must be opposed by all of us fighting for our NHS but leaving the EU doesn't rid us of the threat of damaging trade deals.

Just imagine for a second that we did exit the EU- leaving the Tories in charge of negotiating our trade deals with the rest of the world. The UK has, in the past, signed a number of bilateral deals that include the dreaded investor state dispute mechanism (ISDS) which allows companies to sue states for risking their 'future profits' - and which threatens our health service. Indeed the Tory Government is a major driving force for TTIP - and David Cameron is one of the deal's top cheerleaders.

If we left the EU, then we could be left with the Government negotiating trade deals with the rest of the world. What then? With the Tories still in charge, we could then expect the roll out of multiple TTIPs on steroids as Britain negotiated trade deals with countries across the world. Each of these deals could include an ISDS - thus potentially allowing companies from to sue our Government for protecting public services. That doesn't sound like safety for our NHS to me.

Mounting pressure from citizens, campaigners and politicians across Europe has successfully forced the EU to open up TTIP to more scrutiny. Eventually, our MEPs and MPs will vote on the final deal. We can stop TTIP but to do so we need to make sure our elected representatives know that they will not get away with waving TTIP throughYou only have to look at the recent history of our Health Service to see where the real danger lies. Starting a quarter of a century ago a marketplace was introduced into the NHS - a process which was accelerated by the last Labour Government and put into overdrive by the Coalition with the Health and Social Care Act of 2012*.*_



Magyarmum said:


> I posted the article for interest purposes only, not to prove anything!.
> 
> Good it's been a one way traffic for far too long! Now maybe Hungarian doctors, dentists and nurses will come back and work in the extremely understaffed and overworked Hungarian NHS!
> 
> Last year a friend of mine who's the Administrator for a group of Hungarian NHS dental practices was telling me that it's impossible to recruit a newly qualified dental surgeon from any of the Hungarian universities because they're all off to work in either Germany or the UK!


Our loss someone else's gain. And what a loss too - I hope all those EU health workers now leaving in droves know many of us will be eternally grateful to them for caring for us when we were sick.


----------



## KittenKong

[QUOTE="Magyarmum, post:

Good it's been a one way traffic for far too long! Now maybe Hungarian doctors, dentists and nurses will come back and work in the extremely understaffed and overworked Hungarian NHS!

Last year a friend of mine who's the Administrator for a group of Hungarian NHS dental practices was telling me that it's impossible to recruit a newly qualified dental surgeon from any of the Hungarian universities because they're all off to work in either Germany or the UK![/QUOTE]

Quite frankly I am appalled by your comments and for MM and SWC for liking your post. Do MM and SWC really believe the NHS can train "British replacements" for deported "non British" NHS professionals by March 2019?

As for the OP, for your information I have friends who are from other EU countries including from former Iron Curtain countries. They came to the UK for a better life, work hard and integrated well in to UK life. They have loved living in the UK until the Brexit vote. I now value them more than ever as they may have to leave in the not too distant future.

You said earlier that no one in their right mind would wish to return to the days of the Iron Curtain. Now you seem to suggest Hungarians should be forced to return to Hungary! Keep them behind a wall so they can't leave?

As a citizen of Europe I want to be able to freely leave the UK for a better life on retiring.

Don't forget EU citizens can freely live and work in Hungary too. If there's a problem in training and recruiting Health Service staff in your country that's the fault of the government, not the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Quite frankly I am appalled by your comments and for MM and SWC for liking your post. Do MM and SWC really believe the NHS can train "British replacements" for deported "non British" NHS professionals by March 2019?


Please keep me out of your constant ranting.

The NHS is full of non EU doctors and nurse and dentists. I have not been treated by one EU nurse or doctor in the last 48 months. My own GP is from Pakistan and is the most polite person I know. Sorry I don't buy this because EU NHS workers are going back home nonescene that the NHS is understaffed. Most of the NHS staff are from outside of the EU like Africa, Pakistan, India, Australia, America etc, etc.

Now as I said before I have things to do so kindly please refrain from mentioning me in this.

Thank you.


----------



## noushka05

*Miles King*‏@*MilesKing10* 8h8 hours ago

Future trade deals will have a massive impact on UK livestock farming exports. But there's another Brexit crisis brewing.
95% of vets who sign off meat on animal welfare & food safety standards are non-UK EU citizens. And they're already leaving. https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/environment/interview/british-veterinary-association/91902/we-cannot-have-two-tier-system…


----------



## noushka05

God this government gets more ridiculous by the day

*Nicola Sturgeon*‏Verified [email protected]*NicolaSturgeon* 8h8 hours ago

Nicola Sturgeon Retweeted Jim Pickard

_This letter is extraordinary. A govt intent on leaving EU & continually talking about prospect of 'no deal' moaning
about EU preparing to treat UK as a non member and for the possibility of 'no deal'.
Unbelievable - or rather, increasingly believable from this inept UK government.

_


----------



## noushka05

*Ian Dunt*‏Verified [email protected]*IanDunt* 7h7 hours ago

Day nine of 2018. PM tries and fails to have a reshuffle. 
Govt appointee to uni regulator resigns. 
Letter reveals govt horror over no-deal it has itself proposed


And still there's no alarm bells ringing with many leave voters

,

.


----------



## noushka05

*Steve Peers*‏Verified [email protected]*StevePeers* 19h19 hours ago

Seriously? SERIOUSLY!?

The UK government screeches "no deal is better than a bad deal" to the rafters -
and then whines when the EU side spells out the consequences of "no deal"?

What the **** did they think would happen? And do they realise how stupid they look??

..


----------



## noushka05

*Mike Galsworthy #FBPE*‏@*mikegalsworthy* 14m14 minutes ago

Exactly, Daily Express... people want money for NHS, but you chose Brexit instead.

Fallen £ costs NHS £900m extra a year. Fallen GDP growth costs billions & extends austerity.
Govt spending billions on Brexit prep.

It's Brexit or NHS. There isn't money for both.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Absolutely I was! I have been trying to raise awareness about the dangers posed by TTIP years _before _the referendum.
> 
> Too many posts to mention but here are a couple of threads I made.
> 
> *Corporate America primed for GLOBAL TAKEOVER!. TTIP*
> Discussion in 'General Chat' started by noushka05, Aug 23, 2015.
> 
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...-global-takeover-ttip.407316/#post-1064282475
> 
> *Is your MP fighting to exempt NHS from TTIP?*
> Discussion in 'General Chat' started by noushka05, Nov 4, 2014.
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/is-your-mp-fighting-to-exempt-nhs-from-ttip.384068/
> 
> Here are some posts before & after the referendum.
> 
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/a-date-has-been-announced.422582/page-3#post-1064467744
> 
> _While this government are the greatest champions of TTIP, its looking that way. :/ TTIP was the main reason I initially considered voting out. It absolutely terrifies me. However, having listened to those I trust I've been swayed into thinking we have a better chance of fighting the deal collectively with the rest of Europe.
> 
> This is a good article on why voting out wont save us from TTIP & why we can only save ourselves as part of an EU wide movement -_
> _http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...tip-by-leaving-europe-heres-why-a6853876.html
> And the article by George Monbiot on why hes voting in. (it was George who broke the TTIP_ story to the MSM) "_*I'm starting to hate the EU. But I will vote to stay in" http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...tip-by-leaving-europe-heres-why-a6853876.html*_
> 
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/is-your-mp-fighting-to-exempt-nhs-from-ttip.384068/
> 
> _Currently voting IN. If France stops TTIP, I will definitely be voting IN. I am far more afraid of being at the mercy of ultra right wingers than staying in the EU which at least offers us some protection. The far rights rabid obsession with 'deregulating' everything that protects us & our environment is terrifying. Many of the key leavers (Johnson, Gove, Lawson. Farage, Paterson & so on) don't even believe in climate change. There is no hope at all of saving our environment if we leave the EU
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out.426589/#post-1064534639
> 
> _
> 
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out.426589/page-100#post-1064584129
> _My God, you think this is a good thing? This is a takeover of our country by corporate America. Do you not understand how terrifying this is Kim? Have you not heard of TTIP? And they said the remain experts were just scaremongering when they warned this would happen if we voted brexit Everything we were warned about is coming to pass._
> 
> https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/walloon-loons.435733/page-3#post-1064686455
> 
> _Can I just say, one of the biggest issues for me in the run up to the referendum was which was the best chance we had of defeating TTIP & CETA - by remaining in the EU or by leaving it (I posted about this several times on the referendum thread). The experts said our best chance was to remain as the hard right wing government we would be left with would have us locked into some dodgy trade deal at the first opportunity. And TTIP was indeed defeated within the EU- & now its looking hopeful CETA will be defeated too._
> 
> _The point to me is that many voted out of Europe believing we were dictated to by the EU. Little Wallonia shows this is not the case as parliaments can use their veto. This is actually a huge victory for democracy. Millions of ordinary people have been fighting to stop TTIP & CETA - & they have won (so far).
> 
> _
> This is a must read - I posted this in May 2016. Project fear?
> _https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/nhs-how-much-truth.426525/#post-1064533790
> 
> *Our NHS Is Under Threat From the Tories, Not the EU*
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/caroline-lucas/lord-owen-speech-eu-referendum_b_9625578.html
> This morning David Owen gave a speech in which he claimed that Britain needs to leave the EU to protect the our Health Service. I have great respect for his work on the NHS but I disagree with Owen about leaving the EU - which will not remove the real threat to our health service. The thrust of his argument is that our health service is under threat from the European Union because of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) - a mammoth trade deal being negotiated between the EU and the USA. TTIP is indeed dreadful and must be opposed by all of us fighting for our NHS but leaving the EU doesn't rid us of the threat of damaging trade deals.
> 
> Just imagine for a second that we did exit the EU- leaving the Tories in charge of negotiating our trade deals with the rest of the world. The UK has, in the past, signed a number of bilateral deals that include the dreaded investor state dispute mechanism (ISDS) which allows companies to sue states for risking their 'future profits' - and which threatens our health service. Indeed the Tory Government is a major driving force for TTIP - and David Cameron is one of the deal's top cheerleaders.
> 
> If we left the EU, then we could be left with the Government negotiating trade deals with the rest of the world. What then? With the Tories still in charge, we could then expect the roll out of multiple TTIPs on steroids as Britain negotiated trade deals with countries across the world. Each of these deals could include an ISDS - thus potentially allowing companies from to sue our Government for protecting public services. That doesn't sound like safety for our NHS to me.
> 
> Mounting pressure from citizens, campaigners and politicians across Europe has successfully forced the EU to open up TTIP to more scrutiny. Eventually, our MEPs and MPs will vote on the final deal. We can stop TTIP but to do so we need to make sure our elected representatives know that they will not get away with waving TTIP throughYou only have to look at the recent history of our Health Service to see where the real danger lies. Starting a quarter of a century ago a marketplace was introduced into the NHS - a process which was accelerated by the last Labour Government and put into overdrive by the Coalition with the Health and Social Care Act of 2012*.*_
> 
> Our loss someone else's gain. And what a loss too - I hope all those EU health workers now leaving in droves know many of us will be eternally grateful to them for caring for us when we were sick.


Yeah, you're still lecturing, yet I don't see an answer to my question (although could have missed it)


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Yeah, you're still lecturing, yet I don't see an answer to my question (although could have missed it, you do tend to flood pages with your non-answers)


Does this answer it?

. -( noushka05, May 29, 2015 )



noushka05 said:


> dont believe you're really that shallow Satori - i think (i may be wrong) a lot of what you say is tongue in cheek I'm sure Boris really knows that EU food standards, animal welfare standards, environmental standards are far superior to the USA's lol. And if everything is so rosy, why is there so much secrecy surrounding the deal? ( re TTIP)


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> I don't think any of the V4 would stand for sharing some sovereignty, after all that's basically what the argument about taking in refugees is all about!
> 
> //www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-hungary-minister/hungary-rejects-dead-end-street-of-ceding-powers-to-eu-idUSKCN1BO1GP


Interesting - thank you - and not surprising. Though I think the EU would be better with more sovereignty being pooled, many don't, and the EU can't force anyone to do anything since they are independent nations.

The Eurozone will, I think come closer together, and may form a new 'core' around which some other nations become trading 'satellites'. Will be interesting to see.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> I posted the article for interest purposes only, not to prove anything!.
> Good it's been a one way traffic for far too long! Now maybe Hungarian doctors, dentists and nurses will come back and work in the extremely understaffed and overworked Hungarian NHS!
> 
> Last year a friend of mine who's the Administrator for a group of Hungarian NHS dental practices was telling me that it's impossible to recruit a newly qualified dental surgeon from any of the Hungarian universities because they're all off to work in either Germany or the UK!


I mentioned this in one of the other threads about the brain drain that is created in some EU countries . Its great for us but as you say , not so good for the other countries and they must resent us enticing their qualified staff away . 
I do not believe that anyone already working here should be forced to leave though but training our own staff would be a good idea to stop us draining other countries in the future. .


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> God this government gets more ridiculous by the day
> 
> *Nicola Sturgeon*‏Verified [email protected]*NicolaSturgeon* 8h8 hours ago
> 
> Nicola Sturgeon Retweeted Jim Pickard
> 
> _This letter is extraordinary. A govt intent on leaving EU & continually talking about prospect of 'no deal' moaning
> about EU preparing to treat UK as a non member and for the possibility of 'no deal'.
> Unbelievable - or rather, increasingly believable from this inept UK government.
> 
> _


We set aside £3 bn in the last budget to prepare for a no deal Brexit, with calls from the rabid Tory Brexiteers for much more. Those same Brexiteers are calling for us to leave now, or at the latest in March.

And then they threaten to take the EU to court for actually preparing, because it's not fair on us and will cause companies to relocate to the EU.

It would be hard to believe if it wasn't typical of their shambolic mismanagement of everything from the referendum onwards.


----------



## Arnie83

I've been wondering why some people seem so het up about the ECJ. Farage and co, and a lot of Leavers talk about taking back control of our laws, and the 'tyranny' of the ECJ was mentioned here.

I was wondering what all these 'laws' are of which we want to regain control.

It's not stuff like theft, robbery, violence, fraud, driving offences, property law, local by-laws, the fox hunting ban, drug laws, nudity in a public place (!), incitement, terrorism, tax evasion, gay marriage ... Or is it?

Is it, more or less, just the regulations that govern the single market, to make sure that no country has an unfair advantage over others by, say, allowing unsafe working practices to lower costs?

And in what way is the ECJ 'tyrannical', do people think?


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Does this answer it?
> 
> . -( noushka05, May 29, 2015 )


We were discussing the EU talks with the US being in secret. Crikey, this is like pulling teeth


----------



## kimthecat

MiffyMoo said:


> We were discussing the EU talks with the US being in secret. Crikey, this is like pulling teeth


without anaesthetic !


----------



## stockwellcat.

Looks like the UK is heading into its first international legal challenge with the UN.
*Brexit bill may have broken international environment law, says UN*
http://amp.theguardian.com/environm...-broken-international-environment-law-says-un


----------



## MiffyMoo

stockwellcat. said:


> Looks like the UK is heading into its first international legal challenge with the UN.
> *Brexit bill may have broken international environment law, says UN*
> http://amp.theguardian.com/environm...-broken-international-environment-law-says-un


Will be interesting to see if this is the case. The EU was found to be in breach back in March last year, but I can't see what more was done than a bit of a telling off


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> [QUOTE="Magyarmum, post:
> 
> Good it's been a one way traffic for far too long! Now maybe Hungarian doctors, dentists and nurses will come back and work in the extremely understaffed and overworked Hungarian NHS!
> 
> Last year a friend of mine who's the Administrator for a group of Hungarian NHS dental practices was telling me that it's impossible to recruit a newly qualified dental surgeon from any of the Hungarian universities because they're all off to work in either Germany or the UK!


Quite frankly I am appalled by your comments and for MM and SWC for liking your post. Do MM and SWC really believe the NHS can train "British replacements" for deported "non British" NHS professionals by March 2019?

As for the OP, for your information I have friends who are from other EU countries including from former Iron Curtain countries. They came to the UK for a better life, work hard and integrated well in to UK life. They have loved living in the UK until the Brexit vote. I now value them more than ever as they may have to leave in the not too distant future.

You said earlier that no one in their right mind would wish to return to the days of the Iron Curtain. Now you seem to suggest Hungarians should be forced to return to Hungary! Keep them behind a wall so they can't leave?

As a citizen of Europe I want to be able to freely leave the UK for a better life on retiring.

Don't forget EU citizens can freely live and work in Hungary too. If there's a problem in training and recruiting Health Service staff in your country that's the fault of the government, not the EU.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, as to how the NHS can train "British replacements" by March 2019. May I suggest that David Cameron should have thought of that apparently minor point before he called the referendum? As for deporting "non British" Health professionals you really don't know what you're talking about unless you're confusing it with Trumps mass deportation of Haitians, Salvadorians and the "dreamers".

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/28224...f-movement-visas-immigration-figures-settled-status/

The thing that is problematic is that whilst the UK has guaranteed the Pension increases and reciprocal Health agreement, no one can say how the EU countries where British expats live, will react. Hopefully by not deporting British expats to the UK!

*You said earlier that no one in their right mind would wish to return to the days of the Iron Curtain. Now you seem to suggest Hungarians should be forced to return to Hungary! Keep them behind a wall so they can't leave?*

I find this comment highly insulting. I made no suggestion that Hungarians "should be forced to return to Hungary" Are you aware that Hungary is a member of the EU and as such have the freedom to travel and work anywhere within the EU?

What "wall" are you talking about? The only ones I know are Hadrian's, Wall Street, and the Great Wall of China to name a few and I can assure you we're nowhere near any of them. Neither are we hiding behind the Iron Curtain despite what you may think!

*Don't forget EU citizens can freely live and work in Hungary too. If there's a problem in training and recruiting Health Service staff in your country that's the fault of the government, not the EU*

I'm well aware that EU citizens can work in Hungary, but you have to remember that compared to countries like the UK, France and Germany Hungary is a poor country and and can't afford to pay the kind of salaries they get by moving to the UK for example. I think I'm correct in saying a junior doctor working in a UK NHS hospital earns around £26,000 p.a. A doctor working in a similar position in a Hungarian NHS hospital even with the recent 14% increase earns approximately £8,500 p.a
Hardly an incentive to move countries!

And a minor but highly important point is that most Hungarian doctors I know speak excellent English but I wonder how many British doctors are fluent in Hungarian?

https://www.doctorcpr.com/blog/countries-where-doctors-get-paid-the-least/

And by the way I'm British not Hungarian as you seem to think!

* 
*


----------



## MiffyMoo

Magyarmum said:


> Quite frankly I am appalled by your comments and for MM and SWC for liking your post. Do MM and SWC really believe the NHS can train "British replacements" for deported "non British" NHS professionals by March 2019?
> 
> As for the OP, for your information I have friends who are from other EU countries including from former Iron Curtain countries. They came to the UK for a better life, work hard and integrated well in to UK life. They have loved living in the UK until the Brexit vote. I now value them more than ever as they may have to leave in the not too distant future.
> 
> You said earlier that no one in their right mind would wish to return to the days of the Iron Curtain. Now you seem to suggest Hungarians should be forced to return to Hungary! Keep them behind a wall so they can't leave?
> 
> As a citizen of Europe I want to be able to freely leave the UK for a better life on retiring.
> 
> Don't forget EU citizens can freely live and work in Hungary too. If there's a problem in training and recruiting Health Service staff in your country that's the fault of the government, not the EU.
> 
> Firstly, as to how the NHS can train "British replacements" by March 2019. May I suggest that David Cameron should have though of that apparently minor point before he called the referendum? As for deporting "non British" Health professionals you really don't know what you're talking about unless you're confusing it with Trumps mass deportation of Haitians, Salvadorians and the "dreamers".
> 
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/28224...f-movement-visas-immigration-figures-settled-status/
> 
> The thing that is problematic is that whilst the UK has guaranteed the Pension increases and reciprocal Health agreement, no one can say how the EU countries where British expats live, will react. Hopefully by not deporting British expats to the UK!
> 
> *You said earlier that no one in their right mind would wish to return to the days of the Iron Curtain. Now you seem to suggest Hungarians should be forced to return to Hungary! Keep them behind a wall so they can't leave?*
> 
> I find this comment highly insulting. I made no suggestion that Hungarians "should be forced to return to Hungary" Are you aware that Hungary is a member of the EU and as such have the freedom to travel and work anywhere within the EU?
> 
> What "wall" are you talking about? The only ones I know are Hadrian's, Wall Street, and the Great Wall of China to name a few and I can assure you we're nowhere near any of them. Neither are we hiding behind the Iron Curtain despite what you may think!
> 
> *Don't forget EU citizens can freely live and work in Hungary too. If there's a problem in training and recruiting Health Service staff in your country that's the fault of the government, not the EU*
> 
> I'm well aware that EU citizens can work in Hungary, but you have to remember that compared to countries like the UK, France and Germany Hungary is a poor country and and can't afford to pay the kind of salaries they get by moving to the UK for example. I think I'm correct in saying a junior doctor working in a UK NHS hospital earns around £26,000 p.a. A doctor working in a similar position in a Hungarian NHS hospital even with the recent 14% increase earns approximately £8,500 p.a
> Hardly an incentive to move countries!
> 
> And a minor but highly important point is that most Hungarian doctors I know speak excellent English but I wonder how many British doctors are fluent in Hungarian?
> 
> https://www.doctorcpr.com/blog/countries-where-doctors-get-paid-the-least/
> 
> And by the way I'm British not Hungarian as you seem to think!


I did wonder what was so 'appalling' about your post to get his ire up. Hopefully he now understands what you said


----------



## Magyarmum

MiffyMoo said:


> I did wonder what was so 'appalling' about your post to get his ire up. Hopefully he now understands what you said


Thank you Miffy. I wondered myself and put it down to the male menopause!


----------



## kimthecat

@Magyarmum In your reply to Kittenkong , I think it would be clearer if you put the proper quote sign* before his line
"Quite frankly I am appalled by your comments and for MM and SWC for liking your post. " 
to show its his quote . At the moment , it looks like you are saying it.

The quote sign is [ quote ] with out the gaps


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> I find this comment highly insulting. I made no suggestion that Hungarians "should be forced to return to Hungary" Are you aware that Hungary is a member of the EU and as such have the freedom to travel and work anywhere within the EU?
> 
> What "wall" are you talking about? The only ones I know are Hadrian's, Wall Street, and the Great Wall of China to name a few and I can assure you we're nowhere near any of them. Neither are we hiding behind the Iron Curtain despite what you may think.
> 
> And a minor but highly important point is that most Hungarian doctors I know speak excellent English but I wonder how many British doctors are fluent in Hungarian?
> 
> And by the way I'm British not Hungarian as you seem to think!
> 
> *
> *


But you did appear to suggest non British citizens should return to their countries of origin though which I found offensive. I accept I might have taken your comments the wrong way and apologise if this is the case.

The NHS "brain drain" is a universal problem and not only within the EU although it could be argued it is easier to move within the EU as we know.

If a UK Doctor wishes to emigrate and work in Australia for example then so they should. There's even a programme on BBCtv, "Wanted Down Under" about UK professionals wanting a better life in Australia and New Zealand. Even the hardest of EU haters can't blame the EU for that!

Yes, many Europeans are indeed fluent in other languages including English. What does that say about the UK education system when very few can here?

As for walls I was referring to the Berlin wall with the primary aim of keeping its citizens from leaving the country.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Problem with deals - why “ our deals” would be better than “ deals we have already “ with the rest of our he world? Deals with EU countries will not be better. WHO rules will leave us exposed to China, Russia etc... Not mention USA. Basically the very cosmopolitan ultra rich, owners of more than one passport and who afford passport of any color, will get richer, so much richer , that bankrolling Brexit campaign was a good investment for them!

No more EU workers right! 
Great! How ironic that Labour own leader used the whip to actually push for it, predicting, that as soon as working conditions post Brexit will worsen, then Labour will be in power again.


And you think EU political elite stink!

Oh, they do, but if we smell our :Vomit


----------



## Guest

MiffyMoo said:


> They don't need a passport .
> 
> It looks like it's a great move for both, so good on them. Of course Alantra want to move into the UK market, we have some of the best and most knowledgeable investors in the world. In a recent survey, London was the third most visited city for issuers to come to investors for 61.4% of responders, behind New York and Boston. The next most popular city was Frankfurt at no. 7 for 32% of responders.


UK was doing pretty well in EU, as these figures show. I wonder what these will be after Brexit.



noushka05 said:


> *Steve Peers*‏Verified [email protected]*StevePeers* 19h19 hours ago
> Seriously? SERIOUSLY!?
> 
> The UK government screeches "no deal is better than a bad deal" to the rafters -
> and then whines when the EU side spells out the consequences of "no deal"?
> What the **** did they think would happen? And do they realise how stupid they look??
> ..


Most people in EU know that UK politicians need to show off and appear to be tough for the British, and in actual negotiations they have nothing to bargain with. No deal will ruin UK for a long time, and if the May&Co will not start talking about the realities, this might happen. Remember, UK has not solved NI border and if that does not happen, that´s it. No deal. But maybe it is a good thing to point out what will happen after that. At least now some have become a bit more interested in politics, which is a good thing.



Arnie83 said:


> I've been wondering why some people seem so het up about the ECJ. Farage and co, and a lot of Leavers talk about taking back control of our laws, and the 'tyranny' of the ECJ was mentioned here.
> 
> I was wondering what all these 'laws' are of which we want to regain control.
> It's not stuff like theft, robbery, violence, fraud, driving offences, property law, local by-laws, the fox hunting ban, drug laws, nudity in a public place (!), incitement, terrorism, tax evasion, gay marriage ... Or is it?
> Is it, more or less, just the regulations that govern the single market, to make sure that no country has an unfair advantage over others by, say, allowing unsafe working practices to lower costs?
> And in what way is the ECJ 'tyrannical', do people think?


That´ll be the day when Farage will actually admit that UK can decide on all matters Farage claims UK should decide, and also admit that UK has been creating these laws with other EU politicians and they are all mutual agreement anyway. But I bet it is really the regulations in consumer markets and tax evasions why some hard Brexiteers want to leave without any deal.

But it is true that EU has just recently started wondering should there be laws about democracy in EU countries, as countries like Poland aim at destroying one of the corner stones of democracy, independent legal system. Polish/ Hungarian and Czech governments have already cut down freedom of media considerably. Similar "progress" is happening in Hungary and Czech, and that is one reason many think that EU should have more right to cancel the membership, if democracy is threatened. I think we should too, as there has enough tyrannies in Europe. No more, never again!


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> We were discussing the EU talks with the US being in secret. Crikey, this is like pulling teeth


As was I in my post you quoted 

The video's I posted on the thread I created to raise awareness of TTIP in 2015 also warned about TTIP being negotiated behind closed doors. I made it quite clear in the old EU ref thread before the vote, TTIP was my major concern & ultimately the main reason I voted to remain.

ETA I also posted a link on my thread to this George Monbiot article - https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-leading-gunpowder-plot-democracy-eu-us-trade .
George has done extensive work raising awareness about TTIP & was in fact the journalist who broke the story in the msm.

_Almost no one had heard of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) between the EU and the US, except those who were quietly negotiating it. And I suspected that almost no one ever would. Even the name seemed perfectly designed to repel public interest. I wrote about it for one reason: to be able to tell my children that I had not done nothing_.

Thank goodness millions of people right across Europe responded to the threat TTIP posed to our health & safety, our work & food standards & to our environment. So how are we going to prevent a secret toxic deal with the US now we're alone & desperate for deal, Miffymoo?

*Inferior standards warning*

Alarm has been raised at Cabinet level that an eventual deal could lead to Britain accepting inferior welfare or environmental standards,
including chlorine-washed chicken and antibiotic use in beef, as well access to the NHS for US health conglomerates.
Campaigners accuse Dr Fox of imposing draconian controls on the discussions, which are considered vital to Britain's prosperity post-Brexit

. He argues that officials should be allowed to negotiate privately while policy positions are developed

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/exclusive-uk-demands-secrecy-brexit-trade-talks-us/



MrsZee said:


> UK was doing pretty well in EU, as these figures show. I wonder what these will be after Brexit.
> 
> Most people in EU know that UK politicians need to show off and appear to be tough for the British, and in actual negotiations they have nothing to bargain with. No deal will ruin UK for a long time, and if the May&Co will not start talking about the realities, this might happen. Remember, UK has not solved NI border and if that does not happen, that´s it. No deal. But maybe it is a good thing to point out what will happen after that. At least now some have become a bit more interested in politics, which is a good thing.
> 
> That´ll be the day when Farage will actually admit that UK can decide on all matters Farage claims UK should decide, and also admit that UK has been creating these laws with other EU politicians and they are all mutual agreement anyway. But I bet it is really the regulations in consumer markets and tax evasions why some hard Brexiteers want to leave without any deal.
> 
> But it is true that EU has just recently started wondering should there be laws about democracy in EU countries, as countries like Poland aim at destroying one of the corner stones of democracy, independent legal system. Polish/ Hungarian and Czech governments have already cut down freedom of media considerably. Similar "progress" is happening in Hungary and Czech, and that is one reason many think that EU should have more right to cancel the membership, if democracy is threatened. I think we should too, as there has enough tyrannies in Europe. No more, never again!


I'm hoping the border issue might actually save us all from brexit? Yes brexit has definitely politicised many people - the young especially . I don't think they'll ever forgive the tory party for ruining their futures. I do hope I'm right anyway & the toxic tories finally get their just desserts at the hands of the young.


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> As was I in my post you quoted
> 
> The video's I posted on the thread I created to raise awareness of TTIP in 2015 also warned about TTIP being negotiated behind closed doors. I made it quite clear in the old EU ref thread before the vote, TTIP was my major concern & ultimately the main reason I voted to remain.
> 
> ETA I also posted a link on my thread to this George Monbiot article - https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-leading-gunpowder-plot-democracy-eu-us-trade .
> George has done extensive work raising awareness about TTIP & was in fact the journalist who broke the story in the msm.
> 
> _Almost no one had heard of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) between the EU and the US, except those who were quietly negotiating it. And I suspected that almost no one ever would. Even the name seemed perfectly designed to repel public interest. I wrote about it for one reason: to be able to tell my children that I had not done nothing_.
> 
> Thank goodness millions of people right across Europe responded to the threat TTIP posed to our health & safety, our work & food standards & to our environment. So how are we going to prevent a secret toxic deal with the US now we're alone & desperate for deal, Miffymoo?
> 
> *Inferior standards warning*
> 
> Alarm has been raised at Cabinet level that an eventual deal could lead to Britain accepting inferior welfare or environmental standards,
> including chlorine-washed chicken and antibiotic use in beef, as well access to the NHS for US health conglomerates.
> Campaigners accuse Dr Fox of imposing draconian controls on the discussions, which are considered vital to Britain's prosperity post-Brexit
> 
> . He argues that officials should be allowed to negotiate privately while policy positions are developed
> 
> Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/exclusive-uk-demands-secrecy-brexit-trade-talks-us/
> 
> I'm hoping the border issue might actually save us all from brexit? Yes brexit has definitely politicised many people - the young especially . I don't think they'll ever forgive the tory party for ruining their futures. I do hope I'm right anyway & the toxic tories finally get their just desserts at the hands of the young.


 Just desserts for Toxic Tories!


----------



## Zaros

Magyarmum said:


> A minor but highly important point is that most Hungarian doctors I know speak excellent English but I wonder how many British doctors are fluent in Hungarian?


I liked your post for the above quote, Mags.

The oldest linguistic joke of all goes something like this; 'What do you call someone who speaks three languages?
Tri-lingual. 
Someone who speaks two languages?
Bi-lingual. 
One language? 
British. 
I'm sure some people are going to find that rather offensive but I don't care, simply because it's fairly true.
English is the world's language (not American English because that's just so wrong.)

On the whole Brits are quite arrogant, not very courteous and lazy when it comes to languages. 
We venture abroad fully expecting people of other lands to understand us when we ask for a coffee or a beer, or for directions to wherever it is, and the loo.
Yet when the French or the Germans or the Italians, for example, visit England, they don't expect the English to understand their native tongue and, therefore, ask for a coffee or a beer or directions to wherever it is, in English because they all speak an excellent level of the english language.
I consider myself a bit of a globetrotter and on my travels across different countries, have experienced little to no problems at all at making myself understood in my native tongue.
Oh wait! There was the exception..........Wales.
However, in many respects I'm no different to that arrogant, discourteous and lazy Brit I briefly mentioned, because I've actually stopped expanding my Finnish vocabulary after discovering the vast majority of Finnish people, the length and breadth of the country, speak extremely good English. I also find they're very accommodating too, because they understand how difficult Finnish is and much prefer to speak English with me. They do so with confidence and with pride.
I could never imagine a Finn walking into a random pub in say, Moss Side, Manchester and asking _'Saisinko tuopin olutta?'_
May I have a pint of beer?
He's going to get the following reaction.....:Wideyed

_'Sorry pal, I don't know what the **** you're talking about'
_
The last time I heard those words spoken I was in a bar in Savonlinna asking; '_Saisinko tuopin olutta?'_

Coming from 'Ull (Hull) as I do, it ain't 'appening because pronunciation is everything.:Shamefullyembarrased


----------



## Arnie83

Zaros said:


> I liked your post for the above quote, Mags.
> 
> The oldest linguistic joke of all goes something like this; 'What do you call someone who speaks three languages?
> Tri-lingual.
> Someone who speaks two languages?
> Bi-lingual.
> One language?
> British.
> I'm sure some people are going to find that rather offensive but I don't care, simply because it's fairly true.
> English is the world's language (not American English because that's just so wrong.)
> 
> On the whole Brits are quite arrogant, not very courteous and lazy when it comes to languages.
> We venture abroad fully expecting people of other lands to understand us when we ask for a coffee or a beer, or for directions to wherever it is, and the loo.
> Yet when the French or the Germans or the Italians, for example, visit England, they don't expect the English to understand their native tongue and, therefore, ask for a coffee or a beer or directions to wherever it is, in English because they all speak an excellent level of the english language.
> I consider myself a bit of a globetrotter and on my travels across different countries, have experienced little to no problems at all at making myself understood in my native tongue.
> Oh wait! There was the exception..........Wales.
> However, in many respects I'm no different to that arrogant, discourteous and lazy Brit I briefly mentioned, because I've actually stopped expanding my Finnish vocabulary after discovering the vast majority of Finnish people, the length and breadth of the country, speak extremely good English. I also find they're very accommodating too, because they understand how difficult Finnish is and much prefer to speak English with me. They do so with confidence and with pride.
> I could never imagine a Finn walking into a random pub in say, Moss Side, Manchester and asking _'Saisinko tuopin olutta?'_
> May I have a pint of beer?
> He's going to get the following reaction.....:Wideyed
> 
> _'Sorry pal, I don't know what the **** you're talking about'
> _
> The last time I heard those words spoken I was in a bar in Savonlinna asking; '_Saisinko tuopin olutta?'_
> 
> Coming from 'Ull (Hull) as I do, it ain't 'appening because pronunciation is everything.:Shamefullyembarrased


I try to use French or Italian or Spanish when ordering food / drink in those countries, and usually find I get a half-hidden smile at my efforts before the answer in English.

I did try to say something in Norwegian when I was there, and they all fell about laughing; and _then_ answered me in English!


----------



## Zaros

Arnie83 said:


> I try to use French or Italian or Spanish when ordering food / drink in those countries, and usually find I get a half-hidden smile at my efforts before the answer in English.
> I did try to say something in Norwegian when I was there, and they all fell about laughing; and _then_ answered me in English!


Been there and experienced that.:Shamefullyembarrased

My very first lone shopping experience was both amusing and embarrassing.

I went into Kioski, a chain of newsagents/sweet shops etc and, in my best Finnish, asked for 20 L&M lights (cigarettes) I had to ask twice because the first time didn't seem to be clear enough.
The assistant turned to the cigarette cabinet and then proceeded to transfer several packets of L&M onto the counter in front of me.
My mind immediately began to puzzle...
In Finnish I told the assistant I only wanted twenty, to which she replied, _'I know' _and continued placing cigarette packets on the counter...

Completely bewildered!

Fortunately, a lady stood behind me realised two things; (1) I was not Finnish and (2) what was happening.

_'Are you English?_ she asked. I told her I was.:Shy
She then informed me, in English, _'When you buy your cigarettes you only need to ask for a packet because, unlike in England, cigarettes are not sold in quantities of less than twenty'_

In English, the assistant then said to me,_ 'You don't want all of these today then':Bag

_


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

The British arrogance @noushka05 mentions wrt other languages is, I think, very real, and it is demonstrated by the Brexiteers' attitude to the negotiations.

We say that anything other than a fully comprehensive free trade deal will damage the economies of both the UK and the EU, so if the EU don't agree to give us all the current benefits of the single market and customs union they are just being vindictive and trying to punish the UK for having the temerity to want to control our own borders. If they refuse to budge and make us pay a price, then of course it's worth it.

But the very idea that the integrity of the EU is important to the EU seems incomprehensible to them. It doesn't even occur to the Brexiteers that the EU might be just as prepared to pay a price to protect the institution as they are to keep out immigrants.

Our red lines are reasonable and must apparently be respected. The EU's red lines are ridiculous and should be sacrificed.

That is pure arrogance, as they will shortly learn.


----------



## kimthecat

A bit OT but talking about NHS. I saw a neurologist last year and he is Indian . he asked me what drugs I take and I said Benepali and he said That sounds like an Indian village which made me laugh. Its good us older people haven't lost our sense of humour and can share a joke regardless of heritage .


----------



## Arnie83

Also, wrt David Davis telling the EU that they can't "cherry-pick" the trade deal by excluding free trade in financial services (which is only available within the single market)

I wonder if Liam Fox will tell the USA that everything has to be included because they're not allowed to cherry-pick.

Or will the USA tell us that we have to accept chlorine washed chicken etc etc because _we_ can't cherry-pick?

Or is what David Davis is saying complete nonsense?


----------



## MiffyMoo

MrsZee said:


> UK was doing pretty well in EU, as these figures show. I wonder what these will be after Brexit.
> 
> Most people in EU know that UK politicians need to show off and appear to be tough for the British, and in actual negotiations they have nothing to bargain with. No deal will ruin UK for a long time, and if the May&Co will not start talking about the realities, this might happen. Remember, UK has not solved NI border and if that does not happen, that´s it. No deal. But maybe it is a good thing to point out what will happen after that. At least now some have become a bit more interested in politics, which is a good thing.
> 
> That´ll be the day when Farage will actually admit that UK can decide on all matters Farage claims UK should decide, and also admit that UK has been creating these laws with other EU politicians and they are all mutual agreement anyway. But I bet it is really the regulations in consumer markets and tax evasions why some hard Brexiteers want to leave without any deal.
> 
> But it is true that EU has just recently started wondering should there be laws about democracy in EU countries, as countries like Poland aim at destroying one of the corner stones of democracy, independent legal system. Polish/ Hungarian and Czech governments have already cut down freedom of media considerably. Similar "progress" is happening in Hungary and Czech, and that is one reason many think that EU should have more right to cancel the membership, if democracy is threatened. I think we should too, as there has enough tyrannies in Europe. No more, never again!


Those figures are for issuers and investors - there is no reason they would change


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider*  5h5 hours ago

June 2016 Remainers: "Leaving the single market will be a catastrophe for our economy!
It'll be like 2008!"

Brexiters: "Project Fear!"

January 2018 Brexiters:


----------



## noushka05

*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider*  1d1 day ago

"No deal is better than a bad deal"
"No deal is better than a bad deal"
"No deal is better than a bad deal"
"No deal is better than a bad deal"
"No deal is better than a bad deal"

"How dare you talk about no deal!"


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> *David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider*  1d1 day ago
> 
> "No deal is better than a bad deal"
> "No deal is better than a bad deal"
> "No deal is better than a bad deal"
> "No deal is better than a bad deal"
> "No deal is better than a bad deal"
> 
> "How dare you talk about no deal!"


Margaritis Schinas, European Commission chief spokesman, said:

"We are somehow surprised that the United Kingdom is surprised that we are preparing for a scenario announced by the UK Government itself."


----------



## KittenKong

Too right.

This from Twitter:


----------



## Guest

MiffyMoo said:


> Those figures are for issuers and investors - there is no reason they would change


Aren´t investors always interested in the development of economical climate and all the forecasts and analysis show how that will be worsened, unless UK cuts the corporation taxation down. But having less taxes would be bad for the country, so not an easy option. I´d doubt UK wants to deregulate consumer laws, as that will make he products less easy to sell to most rich countries.



Arnie83 said:


> Margaritis Schinas, European Commission chief spokesman, said:
> 
> "We are somehow surprised that the United Kingdom is surprised that we are preparing for a scenario announced by the UK Government itself."


It´s the word _preparing_ that UK brexiteers didn´t expect. How unexpected!


----------



## Elles

Maybe this thread should be called “the ultimate remainer’s thread”


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I try to use French or Italian or Spanish when ordering food / drink in those countries, and usually find I get a half-hidden smile at my efforts before the answer in English.
> 
> I did try to say something in Norwegian when I was there, and they all fell about laughing; and _then_ answered me in English!


I can remember being in a French cafe and ordering Cafe au lait and an old guy started doing a pretend bull fight and saying Ole ! :Hilarious I dont think the Brits have an ear for languages


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I can remember being in a French cafe and ordering Cafe au lait and an old guy started doing a pretend bull fight and saying Ole ! :Hilarious I dont think the Brits have an ear for languages


I remember having a coffee in a bar in Fuengirola with an elderly British couple when some Germans that knew them stopped to say they were returning home that day and what a pleasure it'd been meeting them.. The wife of the British couple immediately leapt to her feet and to everyones embarrassment replied "Heil Hitler" and gave the Nazi salute!


----------



## Elles

Very encouraging. So even when we try to speak the dozens of European languages we get the mick taken out of us. In many respects it’s harder for us. A Frenchman wants to speak to a German and a Dutchman, they all speak their second language, which is the same one. English. It’s not actually our fault. It’s the Americans. Theres a lot of them, they’re very important, they make a lot of movies and tv and they chose English as their first language. 

Which European language should we choose as our second language?


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> I can remember being in a French cafe and ordering Cafe au lait and an old guy started doing a pretend bull fight and saying Ole ! :Hilarious I dont think the Brits have an ear for languages


I was convinced I was ordering a 'mixed grill' in a Parisian restaurant. A few minutes later the waiter was standing at the table with a plate and asking "Who ordered the grilled fish?" Yes, you guessed ... 

He didn't add "with extra bones", but he might have done!


----------



## Arnie83

Anyway. Here's the new Minister in David Davis's department, in her pre-referendum days rubbishing the lies of project fear ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/850110198752591872


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> Very encouraging. So even when we try to speak the dozens of European languages we get the mick taken out of us. In many respects it's harder for us. A Frenchman wants to speak to a German and a Dutchman, they all speak their second language, which is the same one. English. It's not actually our fault. It's the Americans. Theres a lot of them, they're very important, they make a lot of movies and tv and they chose English as their first language.
> 
> Which European language should we choose as our second language?


I would say French and German obviously. In Cymru Wales it would be Welsh. I appreciate this could be complicated as many primary school teachers only speak English.

You watch any Scandinavian programme, they all speak perfect English when they need to for example. The actors have appeared on UKTV speaking perfect English. They put UK citizens, myself included, to shame.

When in Cyprus in November we went on one of those glass tour boats. Greek was his native tongue but spoke excellent English. His colleague asked him to repeat the passenger info in Deutsch which he did fluently to the delight of the German tourists present. The captain then asked in French if they were any French speakers on board.

He said he was fluent in FOUR languages!

Incredible!

This is clearly a flaw in the UK education system which cannot be overcome overnight.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> I remember having a coffee in a bar in Fuengirola with an elderly British couple when some Germans that knew them stopped to say they were returning home that day and what a pleasure it'd been meeting them.. The wife of the British couple immediately leapt to her feet and to everyones embarrassment replied "Heil Hitler" and gave the Nazi salute!


 Are you sure you weren't staying at Fawlty Towers??


----------



## Elles

@KittenKong you demonstrated my point very well. Everyone speaks English, many better than the natives. If Europeans speak English to us, the Americans and anyone else not native to their own country, how are we (and Americans) going to develop an ear for language? Especially if we rarely travel. If the language was French instead of English, the French would barely speak anything else, we'd be watching movies and typing on social media in French and the English could develop an ear and talent for it instead. It isn't, so we get looked down on for not speaking 18 different languages. The Americans don't seem to suffer in the same way. No one expects a US citizen to speak anything other than American English, or maybe Spanish depending on their background. Personally I think it's ridiculous to sneer at us about it. I learned French and German and started Spanish, not once has it been necessary for me to speak any of it.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> @KittenKong you demonstrated my point very well. Everyone speaks English, many better than the natives. If Europeans speak English to us, the Americans and anyone else not native to their own country, how are we (and Americans) going to develop an ear for language? Especially if we rarely travel. If the language was French instead of English, the French would barely speak anything else, we'd be watching movies and typing on social media in French and the English could develop an ear and talent for it instead. It isn't, so we get looked down on for not speaking 18 different languages. The Americans don't seem to suffer in the same way. No one expects a US citizen to speak anything other than American English, or maybe Spanish depending on their background. Personally I think it's ridiculous to sneer at us about it. I learned French and German and started Spanish, not once has it been necessary for me to speak any of it.


I certainly wasn't sneering. My own skills in languages other than English can only be described as poor, although I understand written French reasonably well.

My simple point is why are languages taught from the age 12+ and not earlier in the UK? French was by default but German and Spanish weren't on the agenda when I was at school.

Obviously it seems other countries teach English far earlier then that seeing so many speak the language so well.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Benefits for me leaving the EU (Paying attention @Goblin?):
> 
> No more governance from the EU's ECJ.
> No more being ignored by the EU's Parliament.
> Being able to forge our own countries future.
> No more paying into the EU's Budget.
> We will have the ability to make our own trade deals.
> Being able to forge our own better animal welfare laws, better as in work on the EU ones and taking them further.


Funny that..

Trade deals will still need arbitration.. equivalent to the EU's ECJ. Will probably need separate ones, all needing to be funded for each trade deal. Hardly an advantage.

UK actually was influencial within the EU if you look at the facts and what the UK has achieved within the EU. Simple example, preventing the EU ban on neocides led by the UK government.

We could always forge our countries future and a better one within the EU.
We may not pay into the EU's budget but then financially we are going to be worse off out. Hardly an advantage. Instead of 350million per week we could spend on the NHS we are already 350million per week worse off and we haven't left properly yet.

We can make our own trade deals.. which will be worse terms than inside the EU and lose over 40 existing ones.

Animal welfare laws.. well EU sets a minimum, not a maximum. There's a reason the majority of animals and environmental groups supported remain. If those welfare laws interfere with trade we will still need to uphold them through courts due to WTO regulations.
So remind me again, how is your list making the UK and it's people better off?



MiffyMoo said:


> And way back I posted rebuttal, but I understand how it's inconvenient for you


No you pointed out that numbers were not as bad as originally stated. The numbers posted are not those old numbers. Realise that's inconvenient for you.



MiffyMoo said:


> It's exremely frustrating that Leave and Remain were all cross party, but now it's just turned into lots of childish bickering. If only they could put their petty squabbles and desires for vote winning sound bites aside to actually work together to do the best job possible. Once that's done, then they can go back to behaving like snipey children


Why support something which makes the country worse off? If leavers could provide advantages backed by facts it may be a different story. All leavers can provide is damage limitation stories. Best job possible is still to stay in the EU.


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> We were discussing the EU talks with the US being in secret. Crikey, this is like pulling teeth


Bit like May wanted the negotiations with the EU being secret until the EU said no. Things like impact studies online by the EU. UK, well they don't exist now. You think you'll have any say in trade deals the UK makes and will have forwarning?


----------



## Goblin

KittenKong said:


> Obviously it seems other countries teach English far earlier then that seeing so many speak the language so well.


In Germany my daughter started English when she started school. Secondary School started an additional language. At 14 learning German (native), English, French and Latin.

Edit: You do have an advantage that access to english speaking films and media is widespread. How many british/americans actually watch foreign language films for example? Not uncommon to have a cinema show a film in the original language. In holland I believe a lot of films are subtitled rather than dubbed.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Very encouraging. So even when we try to speak the dozens of European languages we get the mick taken out of us. In many respects it's harder for us. A Frenchman wants to speak to a German and a Dutchman, they all speak their second language, which is the same one. English. It's not actually our fault. It's the Americans. Theres a lot of them, they're very important, they make a lot of movies and tv and they chose English as their first language.
> 
> Which European language should we choose as our second language?


Obviously Polish as it is most spoken language in UK after English .
I would start with the ever important: 
Dwa piwa prosze!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> @KittenKong you demonstrated my point very well. Everyone speaks English, many better than the natives. If Europeans speak English to us, the Americans and anyone else not native to their own country, how are we (and Americans) going to develop an ear for language? Especially if we rarely travel. If the language was French instead of English, the French would barely speak anything else, we'd be watching movies and typing on social media in French and the English could develop an ear and talent for it instead. It isn't, so we get looked down on for not speaking 18 different languages. The Americans don't seem to suffer in the same way. No one expects a US citizen to speak anything other than American English, or maybe Spanish depending on their background. Personally I think it's ridiculous to sneer at us about it. I learned French and German and started Spanish, not once has it been necessary for me to speak any of it.


Hmmm... I find speaking Spanish, Polish, Russian very useful on daily basis .
We use Spanish with OH , so kids cannot t follow too much ...Polish or Russian to have more privacy with friends in public...
Latin... just to show off


----------



## Zaros

Zaros said:


> The oldest linguistic joke of all goes something like this; 'What do you call someone who speaks three languages?
> Tri-lingual.
> Someone who speaks two languages?
> Bi-lingual.
> One language?
> British.
> *I'm sure some people are going to find that rather offensive .*





Elles said:


> Very encouraging. So even when we try to speak the dozens of European languages we get the mick taken out of us.


We have a winner!:Smuggrin

I believe our language is something we can be truly proud of, especially if many people of many nations around this world want or desire to speak it.:Smug
I also believe the ability to laugh at ourselves and our failings is a superb quality and strength in itself, and one that is inexplicably superior to that of simply sulking about having our weaknesses pointed out because we would rather they be kept hidden away and not talked about at all.

As Mark Twain once said; '_The human race has only one really effective weapon and that is laughter'
_
One day I believe the entire world's population will speak the rich and beautiful English language ._:Smug_


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Obviously Polish as it is most spoken language in UK after English .
> I would start with the ever important:
> Dwa piwa prosze!


I need your knowledge of Polish to translate all the blurb on the large number of Polish products you find in Hungary.

I speak and read fluent French having learnt it from the age of 6 at school, but am so out of practice I struggle to write it. I have a French DIL and a grandson who don't speak English so despite living in Hungary I need to keep my spoken French up to scratch! I also speak some Spanish, Italian and have a limited knowledge of Romanian as a lot of words are very similar to Italian. If my sons and I didn't want anyone understanding what we were saying we used to speak Afrikaans!



Zaros said:


> We have a winner!:Smuggrin
> 
> I believe our language is something we can be truly proud of, especially if many people of many nations around this world want or desire to speak it.:Smug
> I also believe the ability to laugh at ourselves and our failings is a superb quality and strength in itself, and one that is inexplicably superior to that of simply sulking about having our weaknesses pointed out because we would rather they be kept hidden away and not talked about at all.
> 
> As Mark Twain once said; '_The human race has only one really effective weapon and that is laughter'
> _
> One day I believe the entire world's population will speak the rich and beautiful English language ._:Smug_


What used to fascinate me living in Durban was the beautiful, grammatically correct English spoken by young children whose first language was Zulu. An absolute pleasure talking to them!

Many Hungarians speak an almost accentless English and I think it's because if you listen to them speaking but don't hear what they're saying, Hungarian sounds very much as though they're speaking English ..... if that makes sense?

I cheat when it comes to speaking Hungarian .... it's such a hard language to learn and I'm ashamed to admit that my dogs know more than I do! If it's something difficult like having to take my laptop for repair I use google to translate from English to Hungarian, and write the translation down and just hand over the piece of paper to whoever! Much easier than getting my knickers in a twist by trying to explain in my appalling Hungarian.

A sample of the language ....

https://theculturetrip.com/europe/hungary/articles/11-essential-hungarian-phrases-you-need-to-know/.


----------



## Magyarmum

Goblin said:


> In Germany my daughter started English when she started school. Secondary School started an additional language. At 14 learning German (native), English, French and Latin.
> 
> Edit: You do have an advantage that access to english speaking films and media is widespread. How many british/americans actually watch foreign language films for example? Not uncommon to have a cinema show a film in the original language. In holland I believe a lot of films are subtitled rather than dubbed.


I can't speak for cinema over here but with TV not only do we have Hungarian programmes but films, news and various other programmes in English (including CCN News which comes from the USA) Russian, German, Spanish, Italian, French, and films in Chinese, Japanese, Polish, Danish, Norwegian, Dutch and Hindi .... can't think of any more.

@MrsZee and @Zaros would feel at home because occasionally we have films in Finnish although I can't imagine there are many Finns living in this country

Some programmes have Hungarian subtitles and some are dubbed like the Great British Bake Off and with HBO Nat Geo and Viasat plus a few other channels you can switch the language from Hungarian to English. That's more than you can do with French TV and if you don't speak French that's toughies!


----------



## Zaros

Magyarmum said:


> I need your knowledge of Polish to translate all the blurb on the large number of Polish products you find in Hungary.
> 
> I speak and read fluent French having learnt it from the age of 6 at school, but am so out of practice I struggle to write it. I have a French DIL and a grandson who don't speak English so despite living in Hungary I need to keep my spoken French up to scratch! I also speak some Spanish, Italian and have a limited knowledge of Romanian as a lot of words are very similar to Italian. If my sons and I didn't want anyone understanding what we were saying we used to speak Afrikaans!
> 
> What used to fascinate me living in Durban was the beautiful, grammatically correct English spoken by young children whose first language was Zulu. An absolute pleasure talking to them!
> 
> Many Hungarians speak an almost accentless English and I think it's because if you listen to them speaking but don't hear what they're saying, Hungarian sounds very much as though they're speaking English ..... if that makes sense?
> 
> I cheat when it comes to speaking Hungarian .... it's such a hard language to learn and I'm ashamed to admit that my dogs know more than I do! If it's something difficult like having to take my laptop for repair I use google to translate from English to Hungarian, and write the translation down and just hand over the piece of paper to whoever! Much easier than getting my knickers in a twist by trying to explain in my appalling Hungarian.
> 
> A sample of the language ....
> 
> https://theculturetrip.com/europe/hungary/articles/11-essential-hungarian-phrases-you-need-to-know/.


The thing I've noticed about the Finnish peoples ability to speak English is that, to the ear, they all seem to speak with different accents.
MrsZee, for example, sounds very French, one of her friends sounds American, another German.
The majority almost always pronounce the letter 'V' - 'W'

It's one of those amusing but endearing little weakness. The Nostalgia radio DJ introduces the track YMCA by The Willage people.
This amusement is continued by introducing the track _Video Killed the Radio Star_ by Bugless. The track_ If You Leave Me Now_ by Chickago.
Finns have records by the Fab four, aka The Beatless. I'm sure parents from that era might agree.

Finnish doesn't appear to have logic to the early learner, or the late for that matter.
Example:
Valo = Light - as in electric light. Not as in weight which is 'Kevyt'
Talo = House, as in dwelling.

Lighthouse = Majakka.  The letter J or Yee, in this case is pronouced as the letter Y.

The Finnish alphabet has 29 letters. A and Ä with dots above, denoting front spoken vowels and back spoken vowels.
Å with a little circle hovering over the top and represents the Swedish A (not required for writing Finnish)
All street names/places are signed posted in both the Finnish and Swedish languages
The same principle applies with the letters O and Ö with dots.

And just like your dogs, both Zara and Oscar probably know more Finnish than I do. Their road sense, outdoor manners/socialising skills and obedience lessons were first taught to them in the Finnish language just in case they went walkabout. Only the dogs and MrsZee are fluent multi-linguals in this household.:Sorry

We both, however, swear in English.:Shamefullyembarrased

MrsZee excels at that too.



Magyarmum said:


> I can't speak for cinema over here but with TV not only do we have Hungarian programmes but films, news and various other programmes in English (including CCN News which comes from the USA) Russian, German, Spanish, Italian, French, and films in Chinese, Japanese, Polish, Danish, Norwegian, Dutch and Hindi .... can't think of any more.
> 
> @MrsZee and @Zaros would feel at home because occasionally we have films in Finnish although I can't imagine there are many Finns living in this country
> 
> Some programmes have Hungarian subtitles and some are dubbed like the Great British Bake Off and with HBO Nat Geo and Viasat plus a few other channels you can switch the language from Hungarian to English. That's more than you can do with French TV and if you don't speak French that's toughies!


Finnish TV has a varied diet of American junk type programmes. Resurrecting old cars, machinery, storage wars, home improvements, Four weddings in America/Canada etc, etc, etc...
The only American programme I like to watch is Anthony Bourdain's _No Reservations. _
Series such as that dreadfully vulgar and banal, Sex in the city, CSI, and a waterfall of other airtime fillers not really worth watching.
British programmes are very much valued and appreciated here. The series Heartbeat being the most popular of all. Then there's Morse, Young Morse, Lewis, George Gently and any and all other UK crime series dramas. Top Gear, with Clarkson and crew, was top gear for Finns. So many petrol heads here.
All programmes are subtitled of course.
Films are a balance of cultured offerings from all around the globe.

And then there's the boring but much required and seemingly never ending news and socio/political programmes. :Meh

In total, standard TV broadcasting provides the viewer with a total of 16 channels. 17 if you stay up beyond midnight.:Wideyed :Jawdrop


----------



## Arnie83

Good news on the war on plastic pollution today. The Mail assures us that measures such as the requirement to charge 5p on all plastic bags is a triumph for their "Turn the Tide on Plastic" campaign.

Oddly, they fail to mention the EU directive from 2015 which required governments to take these measures.

[It required] national governments to do at least one of two things: either ban shops from giving away free lightweight plastic bags, or to come up with other measures that will reduce plastic bag consumption drastically.

The deadline for putting in place the first option - charging plastic bags - is 31 December 2018.​
Now, while the 28 unanimously agreed to the directive - so it isn't the EU forcing through environmental measures against their will - the EU did not only propose the directive, but saw it through with that binding target date. They made it happen.

No doubt May or Gove will put right the Mail's omission by giving due credit when they promote their green credentials today.


----------



## Satori

I have just ordered a Brexit car.














The left indicator only works 52% of the time.


----------



## Arnie83

@stockwellcat.

I try to look at the Brexit argument from both sides, though I freely admit a bias towards Remain, and I am not trying to change your mind since I realise that is unlikely.

But I do struggle with the facts behind some of the comments made, and, perhaps in a triumph of hope over expectation, I do have to question them.

For example, you describe the ECJ as 'tyrannical', which comes across, to me at least, as unjustifiable hyperbole. What evidence or examples do you have for the using that word? Is it simply that the ECJ is the ultimate arbiter in single market matters? Does that make the UK supreme court 'tyrannical' in cases of internal UK law? Or what?

You say we are 'ignored' by the EU Parliament. On what is that based? In the EU Parliament the UK MEPs the Conservatives and Labour MEPs are not part of the same EU grouping, and will often vote different ways. Who, then, is being ignored?

In the Council, whose votes ultimately determine the 'laws', "UK ministers were on the "winning side" 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%" (quote from Fullfact.org). Being on the 'losing side' only 2% of the time doesn't sound like it justifies your complaint that we are 'ignored'.

And being 'ignored' surely covers more than voting, since most of these things are subject to discussions and lobbying beforehand. I have absolutely no idea how influential our persuasive efforts have been. I wonder, then, how you can be so sure that we are 'ignored'.

There are other examples, (not just from you: Rona's "corrupt EU" phrase is another) but you can, perhaps, see how such statements will give rise to challenges if they are not substantiated, and should not be meekly accepted as valid indictments of the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> I have just ordered a Brexit car.
> 
> The left indicator only works 52% of the time.


And even then it isn't right!


----------



## Calvine

Satori said:


> I have just ordered a Brexit car
> Behave, @Satori.
> 
> The left indicator only works 52% of the time.


----------



## Zaros

Satori said:


> I have just ordered a Brexit car.


That'll be the all new Brexiteer, then....
.
.
.

Taking back control.


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> Good news on the war on plastic pollution today. The Mail assures us that measures such as the requirement to charge 5p on all plastic bags is a triumph for their "Turn the Tide on Plastic" campaign.
> 
> Oddly, they fail to mention the EU directive from 2015 which required governments to take these measures.
> 
> [It required] national governments to do at least one of two things: either ban shops from giving away free lightweight plastic bags, or to come up with other measures that will reduce plastic bag consumption drastically.
> 
> The deadline for putting in place the first option - charging plastic bags - is 31 December 2018.​
> Now, while the 28 unanimously agreed to the directive - so it isn't the EU forcing through environmental measures against their will - the EU did not only propose the directive, but saw it through with that binding target date. They made it happen.
> 
> No doubt May or Gove will put right the Mail's omission by giving due credit when they promote their green credentials today.


I'm rather confused about this because Hungary banned shops from giving free plastic bags around 3 years ago. The only free ones are the small bags you use when picking your vegetables and fruit. As you're charged about 30p for a flimsy bag I bought the more expensive recyclable bags which I keep in the boot of my car. I've used a Sainsbury recyclable bag regularly for nearly 6 years and it's nearly as good as new.

By the way South Africa banned free plastic bags about 15 years ago, so Europe is way behind the times in that respect!


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> And even then it isn't right!


But it still won't go into reverse.


----------



## Goblin

Magyarmum said:


> By the way South Africa banned free plastic bags about 15 years ago, so Europe is way behind the times in that respect!


Germany hasn't had free plastic bags from before I came here, that's around 15 years or so. "Europe" is not necessarily behind the times  As previously mentioned, just because the EU doesn't make it so, does not mean individual countries can't be more proactive and have higher standards. They do, after all retain sovereignty. The advantage is that the EU can set a minimum and slowly raise what is acceptable. That's not to say it is easy to do.


----------



## noushka05

.Response from a lady to the tweet below.

I'm a cancer survivor.
I was treated at this hospital last year. 
This is real; this is Brexit; this is terrifying.

_Do you have cancer? Are you being tested for cancer?

Nursing shortages, with Brexit as a significant cause, are expected to shorten your life 
expectancy and hurt your chances of recovery
_


----------



## MiffyMoo

MrsZee said:


> Aren´t investors always interested in the development of economical climate and all the forecasts and analysis show how that will be worsened, unless UK cuts the corporation taxation down. But having less taxes would be bad for the country, so not an easy option. I´d doubt UK wants to deregulate consumer laws, as that will make he products less easy to sell to most rich countries.
> 
> It´s the word _preparing_ that UK brexiteers didn´t expect. How unexpected!


When Ireland lowered their corporation tax rate from 40% to 12.5%, their GDP increased 23%


----------



## Jesthar

Zaros said:


> That'll be the all new Brexiteer, then....
> .
> .
> .
> 
> Taking back control.


And, like most cars, the primary flaw is the nut behind the wheel?


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> I can remember being in a French cafe and ordering Cafe au lait and an old guy started doing a pretend bull fight and saying Ole ! :Hilarious I dont think the Brits have an ear for languages


Oh God I know that I mangle any foreign language I try to speak. I actually had a French guy look very confused and then burst out laughing and walk off when I tried to talk to him


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Funny that..
> 
> Trade deals will still need arbitration.. equivalent to the EU's ECJ. Will probably need separate ones, all needing to be funded for each trade deal. Hardly an advantage.
> 
> UK actually was influencial within the EU if you look at the facts and what the UK has achieved within the EU. Simple example, preventing the EU ban on neocides led by the UK government.
> 
> We could always forge our countries future and a better one within the EU.
> We may not pay into the EU's budget but then financially we are going to be worse off out. Hardly an advantage. Instead of 350million per week we could spend on the NHS we are already 350million per week worse off and we haven't left properly yet.
> 
> We can make our own trade deals.. which will be worse terms than inside the EU and lose over 40 existing ones.
> 
> Animal welfare laws.. well EU sets a minimum, not a maximum. There's a reason the majority of animals and environmental groups supported remain. If those welfare laws interfere with trade we will still need to uphold them through courts due to WTO regulations.
> So remind me again, how is your list making the UK and it's people better off?
> 
> No you pointed out that numbers were not as bad as originally stated. The numbers posted are not those old numbers. Realise that's inconvenient for you.
> 
> Why support something which makes the country worse off? If leavers could provide advantages backed by facts it may be a different story. All leavers can provide is damage limitation stories. Best job possible is still to stay in the EU.


Because democracy. I understand you only believe in it when it suits you, but there you go


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh God I know that I mangle any foreign language I try to speak. I actually had a French guy look very confused and then burst out laughing and walk off when I tried to talk to him


Lost count of the amount of times I start talking German and the person I am talking to starts talking english in reponse. However what I have noticed is that they are generally appreciative that you tried as it shows a level of respect.


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Because democracy. I understand you only believe in it when it suits you, but there you go


Democracy.. is more than a single vote in a non-binding referendum. Maybe you should look into the meaning of the word


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> But it still won't go into reverse.


So long as the brakes work before we reach the cliff edge.

(This metaphor could run longer than the car!)


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> Good news on the war on plastic pollution today. The Mail assures us that measures such as the requirement to charge 5p on all plastic bags is a triumph for their "Turn the Tide on Plastic" campaign.
> 
> Oddly, they fail to mention the EU directive from 2015 which required governments to take these measures.
> 
> [It required] national governments to do at least one of two things: either ban shops from giving away free lightweight plastic bags, or to come up with other measures that will reduce plastic bag consumption drastically.
> 
> The deadline for putting in place the first option - charging plastic bags - is 31 December 2018.​
> Now, while the 28 unanimously agreed to the directive - so it isn't the EU forcing through environmental measures against their will - the EU did not only propose the directive, but saw it through with that binding target date. They made it happen.
> 
> No doubt May or Gove will put right the Mail's omission by giving due credit when they promote their green credentials today.


Wales introduced it in 2011 and Eire in 2002


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Lost count of the amount of times I start talking German and the person I am talking to starts talking english in reponse. However what I have noticed is that they are generally appreciative that you tried as it shows a level of respect.


When I first moved over here, I got so horribly confused between Afrikaans and German that I drove my teacher up the wall. Haven't had the confidence to try German again, and my Afrikaans pronunciation has left me stuttering and a few people quite wide eyed


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Democracy.. is more than a single vote in a non-binding referendum. Maybe you should look into the meaning of the word


You keep saying it's non-binding, but the majority took time to go to the polls and vote. If Remain has won and the government decided to ignore you, would you be saying the same thing?


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Wales introduced it in 2011 and Eire in 2002


Good for them, and as others have pointed out, other countries also took action earlier.

I wasn't suggesting that the EU had the idea first and foisted it on an unsuspecting world; just that they legislated across the EU so that all countries had to abide by the measures, including those who were maybe not as forward thinking as Wales, Ireland, Germany and Hungary.

Would everyone have done it anyway? Who knows.


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> You keep saying it's non-binding, but the majority took time to go to the polls and vote. If Remain has won and the government decided to ignore you, would you be saying the same thing?


I would still have to say that in my opinion the referendum, as an example of 'democracy', was so poor as hardly to qualify for the description. I think a valid democratic vote must presuppose that people have the facts as far as they are known. It isn't an exercise in who can fool the most people.

If we hold that up as an example of British democracy in action, then we really should be rather ashamed of ourselves.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> Good for them, and as others have pointed out, other countries also took action earlier.
> 
> I wasn't suggesting that the EU had the idea first and foisted it on an unsuspecting world; just that they legislated across the EU so that all countries had to abide by the measures, including those who were maybe not as forward thinking as Wales, Ireland, Germany and Hungary.
> 
> Would everyone have done it anyway? Who knows.


I was going to say something about the USA given Trump's view on climate change, but I had a quick look and it seems that it has been left up to the individual states. Would be nice if they could pull their finger out and make it Law though


----------



## Mirandashell

Just to remind everyone of what actually happened the night of the vote.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> You keep saying it's non-binding, but the majority took time to go to the polls and vote. If Remain has won and the government decided to ignore you, would you be saying the same thing?


Actually it was a foregone conclusion if remain won the issue would continue. Of course if remain had won, the decision could be reversed at any time in the future Once we have left, it's basically irreversable with the terms and advantages we currently have. Isn't it important that people are allowed a say once terms and facts are known before jumping off a cliff, especially as it will damage the country?


----------



## Goblin

Mirandashell said:


> Just to remind everyone of what actually happened the night of the vote.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results


Just a reminder.. that was a long time ago and non-binding. Non-binding as it's recognised that referendums are not a good form of democracy. Demonstrated by:

https://www.npr.org/sections/alltec...es-for-what-is-the-eu-spike-after-brexit-vote


----------



## Mirandashell

I never said it was binding. You are making assumptions about what I meant and you are again totally wrong. 

I posted the link (which contains facts rather than opinion) because there's been a lot of claims about a 'majority' wanting to leave. I think we all need to remember how thin that majority actually is. 

This is probably one of the worst political sections of a forum to allow people to say whatever they like without having to back it up with evidence. So I like to throw some in every now and again. 

Even though I know it will be ignored and misinterpreted.


----------



## Goblin

Mirandashell said:


> I posted the link (which contains facts rather than opinion) because there's been a lot of claims about a 'majority' wanting to leave. I think we all need to remember how thin that majority actually is.


Facts like the referendum was non-binding you mean? Facts like the UK will be damaged by Brexit? Facts like people were asked to vote for something which was not even defined? The last is probably the worst when it comes to the idea of democracy.


----------



## Mirandashell

Why are you having a go at me? I totally agree with you. I think we should have another referendum now we know more facts.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Goblin

Mirandashell said:


> I think we should have another referendum now we know more facts.


Now is not the time, the time is when the terms of leaving are fully known. Issues like Northern Ireland for example have simply been postponed rather than resolved. Trouble is what happens with the threat of no-deal in negotiations? Not that it is a valid threat as the EU knows what it would mean for the UK.


----------



## Mirandashell

Apology accepted.


----------



## kimthecat

Mirandashell said:


> Apology accepted.


 Has Goblin ever apologised to anyone ?


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Has Goblin ever apologised to anyone ?


In the words of the great Homer Simpson: "I never apologise. I'm sorry but that's just the way I am."


----------



## KittenKong

Goblin said:


> Now is not the time, the time is when the terms of leaving are fully known. Issues like Northern Ireland for example have simply been postponed rather than resolved. Trouble is what happens with the threat of no-deal in negotiations? Not that it is a valid threat as the EU knows what it would mean for the UK.


Agree wholeheartedly yet time is running out.

It'll be too late for a second referendum by March 2019.

Another problem is this government will not let people know the full terms of leaving or not know themselves. The latter probably more likely seeing it's taken them 18months with only the return of blue passports to show for it!


----------



## Magyarmum

MiffyMoo said:


> When I first moved over here, I got so horribly confused between Afrikaans and German that I drove my teacher up the wall. Haven't had the confidence to try German again, and my Afrikaans pronunciation has left me stuttering and a few people quite wide eyed


In 1975 when we moved to South Africa, everyone who had a visa to live and work there was put on a free 3 month course to learn Afrikaans. The last week of the course we were all asked to read out a short essay about the country we'd come from, So I gave mine and the fellow that had run the course looked really surprised and told me he'd spent the whole 3 months believing I came from France because I spoke Afrikaans with a strong French accent!

The funny thing was when I went to France on holiday a couple of years later I was acutely aware that I was speaking French with an Afrikaans accent!


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> Has Goblin ever apologised to anyone ?


When they deserve it. Even stockwellcat when he was right and I was wrong about the UK already being in the WTO.


----------



## kimthecat

Goblin said:


> When they deserve it. Even stockwellcat when he was right and I was wrong about the UK already being in the WTO.


 Blimey I'm shocked . I need a cuppa now .  Well done though .


----------



## Magyarmum

Goblin said:


> Germany hasn't had free plastic bags from before I came here, that's around 15 years or so. "Europe" is not necessarily behind the times  As previously mentioned, just because the EU doesn't make it so, does not mean individual countries can't be more proactive and have higher standards. They do, after all retain sovereignty. The advantage is that the EU can set a minimum and slowly raise what is acceptable. That's not to say it is easy to do.


The first country in the world to impose a total ban on plastic bags was Bangladesh in 2002.

If you care to check the facts I think you'll find that African countries were more proactive than Europe in banning/taxing plastic bags.

https://www.capitalfm.co.ke/business/2017/08/list-of-countries-that-have-banned-plastic-paper-bags/


----------



## MiffyMoo

Magyarmum said:


> In 1975 when we moved to South Africa, everyone who had a visa to live and work there was put a free 3 month course to learn Afrikaans. The last week of the course we were all asked to read out a short essay about the country we'd come from, So I gave mine and the fellow that had run the course looked really surprised and told me he'd spent the whole 3 months believing I came from France because I spoke Afrikaans with a strong French accent!
> 
> The funny thing was when I went to France on holiday a couple of years later I was acutely aware that I was speaking French with an Afrikaans accent!


:Hilarious

You beat us, we only moved there in 78. My parents are still there and still have zero Afrikaans. We used to have to translate the news for them (remember when we only had one channel and it didn't start until 5pm, and alternated English and Afrikaans each day?)


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> When they deserve it. Even *stockwellcat when he was right* *and I was wrong* about the UK already being in the WTO.


:Jawdrop :Smuggrin :Smug


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Blimey I'm shocked . I need a cuppa now .  Well done though .


I need to sit down. I am shocked. Just having a cuppa.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> :Jawdrop :Smuggrin :Smug


Five hours 38 minutes - new record!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Five hours 38 minutes - new record!


Yep and I'll be breaking that record to. Watch this space. Bets are on I can beat this record to :Hilarious


----------



## MiffyMoo

Here's the latest from Reuters regarding job losses in the financial sector

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...xit-job-fears-may-be-over-egged-idUKKBN1EX1LQ


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I need to sit down. I am shocked. Just having a cuppa.


 you need a tot of whiskey to add to your cuppa.


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Here's the latest from Reuters regarding job losses in the financial sector
> 
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...xit-job-fears-may-be-over-egged-idUKKBN1EX1LQ


Let's hope the job losses are towards the lower end of the various predictions. I haven't seen one that results in the UK _gaining_ jobs though.

The discussion seems to revolve these days around the level of damage that the economy will suffer. I wonder what level makes it all worthwhile, when the only benefit seems to me to be that those of a more nationalistic bent will feel a bit better about themselves.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Let's hope the job losses are towards the lower end of the various predictions. I haven't seen one that results in the UK _gaining_ jobs though.
> 
> The discussion seems to revolve these days around the level of damage that the economy will suffer. I wonder what level makes it all worthwhile, when the only benefit seems to me to be that those of a more nationalistic bent will feel a bit better about themselves.


I did think they would be vacancies for extra border and customs plus Immigrant removal staff driving those, "Go home or face arrest" vans complete with an image of TM with, "Theresa May for Britain" livery.

But wait, they're asking volunteers and not paid staff!


----------



## Magyarmum

MiffyMoo said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> You beat us, we only moved there in 78. My parents are still there and still have zero Afrikaans. We used to have to translate the news for them (remember when we only had one channel and it didn't start until 5pm, and alternated English and Afrikaans each day?)


When we arrived in 75 television hadn't arrived in SA so about once a month we used to get together with friends to watch home movies. In those days there was heavy censorship about what one could read or see. The Naked Ape and Black Beauty were two banned books if I remember rightly. With films whole sections were removed so half the time the film you were watching made no sense at all!


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I did think they would be vacancies for extra border and customs plus Immigrant removal staff driving those, "Go home or face arrest" vans complete with an image of TM with, "Theresa May for Britain" livery.
> 
> But wait, they're asking volunteers and not paid staff!


"They don't like it up 'em Mrs May; they don't like it up 'em!"


----------



## kimthecat

According to Twitter , Farage rowning was on The Wright Stuff this a.m saying maybe there should be another referendum . The reason he gives is to silence the Remainers .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> According to Twitter , Farage rowning was on The Wright Stuff this a.m saying maybe there should be another referendum . The reason he gives is to silence the Remainers .


Yes it's all over the newspapers.
He said that perhaps there should be another referendum as he thinks that more people would vote leave and there would be a larger majority in favour of leaving. He also said that it would silence the remainers like Tony Blair etc, etc.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> Let's hope the job losses are towards the lower end of the various predictions. I haven't seen one that results in the UK _gaining_ jobs though.
> 
> The discussion seems to revolve these days around the level of damage that the economy will suffer. I wonder what level makes it all worthwhile, when the only benefit seems to me to be that those of a more nationalistic bent will feel a bit better about themselves.


I would be interested to see how many job losses result from MIFID II, which is an EU directive that has affected banking globally. I was speaking to a client in Boston yesterday, who told me that bankers have been laid off there due to it. I can't find any numbers for the EU, but it's not looking that great.

The banks also tend to do 'dead wood' cuts prior to bonuses every year, so 5,000 really is a drop in the ocean.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Magyarmum said:


> When we arrived in 75 television hadn't arrived in SA so about once a month we used to get together with friends to watch home movies. In those days there was heavy censorship about what one could read or see. The Naked Ape and Black Beauty were two banned books if I remember rightly. With films whole sections were removed so half the time the film you were watching made no sense at all!


I don't remember that, but when I became old enough to bother about watching tv, I was only ever interested in Pop Shop.

Don't forget Tom Sharpe was also banned, so my dad loved coming to the UK and 'smuggling' TS books back in with him


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> According to Twitter , Farage rowning was on The Wright Stuff this a.m saying maybe there should be another referendum . The reason he gives is to silence the Remainers .


May held a snap election to, "Crush the saboteurs", look what happened!

If they were to be another referendum which went in favour of remaining I doubt very much he and his like would be silenced.


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> I would be interested to see how many job losses result from MIFID II, which is an EU directive that has affected banking globally. I was speaking to a client in Boston yesterday, who told me that bankers have been laid off there due to it. I can't find any numbers for the EU, but it's not looking that great.
> 
> The banks also tend to do 'dead wood' cuts prior to bonuses every year, so 5,000 really is a drop in the ocean.


I got the impression that the 5000 was a day one figure, "chiming" with the BoE's 10,000.

Longer term I really think it would be a lot more, simply because the new offices in EU-land would leech responsibilities currently covered here.

Don't know enough about MIFID II to comment.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> whole sections were removed so half the time the film you were watching made no sense at all!


Ah, yes! A bit like when you have someone on 'ignore' on PF . . . you have to hazard a guess at what the 'ignoree' has said!


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> May held a snap election to, "Crush the saboteurs", look what happened!
> 
> If they were to be another referendum which went in favour of remaining *I doubt very much he and his like would be silenced*.


So like you lot now?

Don't forget, she may not have received the overall majority, but she still got more than Labour.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> According to Twitter , Farage rowning was on The Wright Stuff this a.m saying maybe there should be another referendum . The reason he gives is to silence the Remainers .


If you click here you will see newspaper after newspaper reporting on what he said: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=b...&ie=UTF-8#scso=uid_pntXWp7VG8rRgAbi3Y2YAw_1:0


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> I got the impression that the 5000 was a day one figure, "chiming" with the BoE's 10,000.
> 
> Longer term I really think it would be a lot more, simply because the new offices in EU-land would leech responsibilities currently covered here.
> 
> Don't know enough about MIFID II to comment.


I saw somewhere that MS are planning on only moving c.a. 400. Passporting really doesn't affect that many functions


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Ah, yes! A bit like when you have someone on 'ignore' on PF . . . you have to hazard a guess at what the 'ignoree' has said!


 Its usually the same old stuff .


----------



## Arnie83

Arron Banks has backed Farage's call for a second referendum.

He said:

"Let the people denounce plans for greater European integration, the European Army and porous borders which facilitates the free movement of jihadis."​
In other words, if he gets his wish, he's still going to lie about the effects on the UK, which has vetoes on integration, doesn't have to get involved in any 'army' and can stop any non-EU citizen from coming into the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@kimthecat The only way a second referendum would happen is if it was binding, then the issue would be closed if leave won of course, if another referendum was to take place that is which I doubt very much.


----------



## Arnie83

On the Daily Politics today, Woolfe said that the product in his hamper made by Unilever was an example of how successfully we trade with the EU. He didn't seem to appreciate that we were a part of the single market and customs union that facilitate that very success.

Not the sharpest tool in the box, perhaps.


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> On the Daily Politics today, Woolfe said that the product in his hamper made by Unilever was an example of how successfully we trade with the EU. He didn't seem to appreciate that we were a part of the single market and customs union that facilitate that very success.
> 
> Not the sharpest tool in the box, perhaps.


I'm surprised he didn't included LYNX deodorant or perhaps he realised exactly the same product is sold across other countries as AXE?


----------



## Guest

MiffyMoo said:


> When Ireland lowered their corporation tax rate from 40% to 12.5%, their GDP increased 23%


At the same time they received huge amount of support from EU. But if you don´t need Corporation taxes, fine, Rich certainly won´t need them.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> Why is is unsurprising that someone voting Brexit made a spelling mistake ? Do no Remainers make spelling mistakes ?
> Did he actually make them himself ?


Yes he did make them himself.
Yes I have one.
















The spelling mistake makes them unique


----------



## MiffyMoo

MrsZee said:


> At the same time they received huge amount of support from EU. But if you don´t need Corporation taxes, fine, Rich certainly won´t need them.


700 US companies immediately relocated to Ireland. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about when you say we don't need corporation tax, it seems to be a slightly petulant outburst


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> According to Twitter , Farage rowning was on The Wright Stuff this a.m saying maybe there should be another referendum . The reason he gives is to silence the Remainers .


Or to silence Farage? Some might vote for that!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Or to silence Farage? Some might vote for that!!!


Well @cheekyscrip that sounds good. A referendum to silence Farage I think will get a resounding 99.9% vote. I think leavers and remainers would vote to do this


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Or to silence Farage? Some might vote for that!!!


I think it's a desperate attempt to pacify the people. The angry hordes that would readily see his head stuck on a stick above traitor's gate.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Well @cheekyscrip that sounds good. A referendum to silence Farage I think will get a resounding 99.9% vote. I think leavers and remainers would vote to do this


or save money and stick this over his gob instead!


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> or save money and stick this over his gob instead!


I see UKIP are annoyed with him for suggesting a second referendum.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I see UKIP are annoyed with him for suggesting a second referendum.


 i think he forgets he's not the Leader of UKIP.


----------



## KittenKong

Yet another has cancelled their Labour Party membership. This is not surprising.

If Corbyn fails to change his stance he'll be seen as another fossil to the young people who backed him over the next few months. It's the young who'll suffer the most. There's no such thing as a, "Jobs First Brexit".
He should leave the sound bites for the Tories.

Corbyn's stance on Brexit was the sole reason I never re-joined the party.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I see UKIP are annoyed with him for suggesting a second referendum.


Unfortunately though, having been seen as an architect of Brexit and a politician feared by both Tories and Labour it wouldn't surprise me if they do hold a second referendum if it gets his backing.

Then we'll get to see who's really in charge. Good going for a politician who's failed to get elected in to Parliament should this turn out to be the case.


----------



## Guest

MiffyMoo said:


> 700 US companies immediately relocated to Ireland. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about when you say we don't need corporation tax, it seems to be a slightly petulant outburst


I´m afraid there is a bit more than that, as usual. But thank you for saying my comment was a petulant out burst. Not the nicest term, is it? Next time maybe just ask what I mean by that and do I have any facts to back my claim? If not, fair enough. Then it is just a random opinion amongst so many others.

Hence my facts:

Ireland has been using a lot of loop holes in taxation to attract e.g. US companies to relocate to Ireland. That means that Ireland was used as a tax haven for companies like Apple. That means in practise that if all countries would have similar laws, big corporations would need to pay hardly any taxes. Even now small companies pay much more, as they can´t afford to find all the global loop holes there exist in varies coutries. Maybe British papers have been reporting about it too?

This article explains it pretty well:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double-irish-with-a-dutch-sandwich.asp

An Irish source pointing out that EU is against to loop holes, not 12.5% tax rate. Irish will keep their low rate, it´s their decision anyway.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/the-tricky-politics-of-ireland-s-corporation-tax-1.3219819

But maybe you think this is a good think, some do. I don´t, as I find it really unfair for both smaller domestic companies, who try to compete with big corporations and also for any government trying to raise revenues to support it´s people. Naturally some countries don´t care at all, some only little, others a bit more etc.

Again, I agree with EU and think this type of avoiding paying tax competetion should be fair and equal to all companies and countries, and not favour big corporations and some countries, who abuse the system. I use the word abuse, as Ireland has at the same time received lots of financial support paid By countries like Finland, which does tax also big corporations. That to me is wrong.

Do you understand now what I meant about the comment do you need Corporation tax? And I bet these are the real reasons, why some big corporations/ billionaires would really like UK to become a tax haven country on the whole, and not just your off shore tax havens. At least now Apple had to pay some taxes, even if not that 12,5%, thanks to EU, which was big enough to take it to court and smart enough to win.
Again, to me that was quite right.


----------



## Arnie83

Farage: "So maybe, just maybe, I'm reaching the point of thinking that we should have a second referendum on EU membership"

A few hours later ...

Farage: "To be clear, I do not want a second referendum, but I fear one may be forced upon the country by Parliament."

Well thanks for that Nige.

Latest Mirror (biased towards Remain) poll has Remain 10 percentage points ahead.

But more people still oppose a second referendum than support it.

Will Parliament do its job ... ?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well a recent poll shows most UK people do not want a second referendum in response to Nigel Farages comment yesterday.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Well a recent poll shows most UK people do not want a second referendum in response to Nigel Farages comment yesterday.
> View attachment 341459


I thought you didn't trust polls - something about them being non-representative and easy to fix?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> I thought you didn't trust polls - something about them being non-representative and easy to fix?


I don't trust them but hey some people on here do so just helping out. Personally newspaper and online polls imo are not worth the newspaper they are written in or webspace they occupy. They only normally represent a small selection of selected people as researchers choose who participates in them.

Just helping out


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well a recent poll shows most UK people do not want a second referendum in response to Nigel Farages comment yesterday.
> View attachment 341459


As I said 2 lines above your post.


----------



## Goblin

Most people don't want a second referendum. Just goes to show most people aren't invested enough in a democratic process and having their say. What does that actually say about reasons for voting in the first one? Then again we know why many leavers don't want a second referendum.


----------



## Mirandashell

Why are you taking that poll seriously? We have no information on how many people participated in it or the political leanings of those people. And yet you extrapolate it out to the whole country. That's just silly.

ETA: I've found the figures - 1,049 people. So yeah, really comprehensive. Not. 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/second-eu-referendum-would-reverse-11837325


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well a recent poll shows most UK people do not want a second referendum in response to Nigel Farages comment yesterday.
> View attachment 341459


Interesting how the same poll suggests 55% remain! When you say it was a recent poll I wonder if it was conducted before Farage opened his mouth yesterday?



Goblin said:


> Then again we know why many leavers don't want a second referendum.


This I don't really understand. I can see many will be afraid the referendum result could be reversed, then the leave vote could rocket in their favour. The latter could well happen with the media support for Brexit as before.

Then, with people having a better idea on what Brexit means, hard border in NI etc. leavers could argue we would have no right to protest,(some already say that of course), and this time they'll be right regardless of the consequences of what a hard Brexit entails if there's a clear and decisive majority in favour of it.

So, what's the worry?

It's the possibility May might listen to Farage which is my main gripe. She might be ruling out a second referendum now but this time last year she ruled out an early general election!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Mirandashell said:


> ETA: I've found the figures - 1,049 people. So yeah, really comprehensive. Not.


I agree with you.

This is the point I have been trying to make with all the polls on here (some call facts on here) that show remain in front. Only a certain amount of people have been asked to participate in these polls so hardly comprehensive and hardly a respersentation of the whole of the UK.


----------



## Mirandashell

stockwellcat. said:


> I agree with you.


It's probably the only thing we do agree on but yeah, newspaper polls aren't worth tuppence.


----------



## Mirandashell

The only way to find out what the British public actually wants is to hold another referendum. Until then it's all guesses.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Only a certain amount of people have been asked to participate in these polls so hardly comprehensive and hardly a respersentation of the whole of the UK.


Only a certain amount of people were asked to vote in the referendum. Same thing can be said that it didn't represent the whole of the UK and places like Gibraltar.

Polls can give a indication of trends however and it's clear, support for brexit has dropped.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Only a certain amount of people were asked to vote in the referendum. Same thing can be said that it didn't represent the whole of the UK and places like Gibraltar.


Actually everyone who was entitled to vote was advised constantly to register to vote so they could vote in the referendum. So sorry your arguement is null and void. Everyone who was entitled to vote had the chance to vote in the referendum providing they had registered to vote. Gibraltar was included in the Referendum and had a chance to vote because it is a British Territory in the EU. The referendum did represent the whole of the UK and Gibraltar and the results were from the overall result from the referendum. People voted leave and remain in all corners of the UK and Gibraltar including in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar as well as England. The rules surrounding the referendum were clear and fair.


----------



## Mirandashell

@stockwellcat. I think you're due another apology......


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> This is the point I have been trying to make with all the polls on here (some call facts on here) that show remain in front. Only a certain amount of people have been asked to participate in these polls so hardly comprehensive and hardly a respersentation of the whole of the UK.


If every poll is moving in favour of Remain, than even if the exact figures will of course have a margin of error, the direction of travel can hardly be disputed.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> This is the point I have been trying to make with all the polls on here (some call facts on here) that show remain in front. Only a certain amount of people have been asked to participate in these polls so hardly comprehensive and hardly a respersentation of the whole of the UK.


 I got your point


----------



## Mirandashell

Arnie83 said:


> If every poll is moving in favour of Remain, than even if the exact figures will of course have a margin of error, the direction of travel can hardly be disputed.


Hmmm..... I seem to remember that all the polls said the Tories would win a landslide vctory in the last election.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Mirandashell said:


> Hmmm..... I seem to remember that all the polls said the Tories would win a landslide vctory in the last election.


No there was definitely some that suggested that the Tories may not get the large majority they were aiming for. I can`t remember which polls they were but I do remember seeing some that predicted May would lose her majority.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Mirandashell said:


> Hmmm..... I seem to remember that all the polls said the Tories would win a landslide vctory in the last election.


This was definitely a poll suggesting a Torys landslide victory for General Election 2017:
*Election poll latest: Theresa May will win biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher, final survey predicts*
http://www.independent.co.uk/News/uk/politics/election-poll-latest-tory-win-results-corbyn-theresa-may-a7777781.html?amp


----------



## Mirandashell

> No there was definitely some that suggested that the Tories may not get the large majority they were aiming for. I can`t remember which polls they were but I do remember seeing some that predicted May would lose her majority.


Really? I don't remember them. I do remember a lot of commentators trashing Corbyn and saying the Labour party were about to be destroyed.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Actually everyone who was entitled to vote was advised constantly to register to vote so they could vote in the referendum. So sorry your arguement is null and void. Everyone who was entitled to vote had the chance to vote in the referendum providing they had registered to vote. Gibraltar was included in the Referendum and had a chance to vote because it is a British Territory in the EU. The referendum did represent the whole of the UK and Gibraltar and the results were from the overall result from the referendum. People voted leave and remain in all corners of the UK and Gibraltar including in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar as well as England. The rules surrounding the referendum were clear and fair.


Interesting phrase isn't it. "entitled to vote". Just like polls are those "entitled to give their opinion". So sorry your separation between opinion poll and referendum is null and void. I agree the rules of the referendum were clear.. non-binding referendum to guide the government. Shame what was actually being asked wasn't.



Mirandashell said:


> @stockwellcat. I think you're due another apology......


Actually I think leavers should apologise to the country for voting for something which facts show will damage the country. Still haven't seen any facts showing the UK will be better off, only empty words not backed by the evidence.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Actually I think leavers should apologise to the country for voting for something which facts show will damage the country. Still haven't seen any facts showing the UK will be better off, only empty words not backed by the evidence.


Well I am not apologising to anyone. I was entitled to vote and voted the way I was going to vote. No apology here for you or the country.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> non-binding referendum to guide the government. Shame what was actually being asked wasn't.


I lost count how many times you have said the word non-binding and that phrase is a bit worn after nearly 2 years of hearing it.

Your grasping at the long grass presenting stuff that has been debated over and over again.


----------



## Mirandashell

You don't half talk some nonsense, Goblin!


----------



## Arnie83

Mirandashell said:


> Hmmm..... I seem to remember that all the polls said the Tories would win a landslide vctory in the last election.


Many did - I'm not sure about 'all' - but that is an absolute value, not a direction of travel.

SC's theory is that a poll of 1300 people or so can safely be dismissed as unrepresentative. But if a dozen polls of 1300 people all show that Remain is gaining ground, it's fair to conclude that the 156,000 people thus polled are probably representative of the wider population in saying that Remain is doing better than it was.

It may not reflect the absolute voting intention in a national poll when it actually matters, but the trend towards Remain would be hard to dismiss (unless someone really doesn't like what it's telling them!)

In the past 6 months every poll on Brexit has shown Remain gaining.

Who would win a vote right now I couldn't say. But then such a poll isn't being suggested right now. We still don't know what the negotiated deal is likely to be.


----------



## Mirandashell

@Arnie83 I see what you're saying. I guess as a general trend it works. I just have very little trust in newspaper polls as they are generally wrong. Not just in the last election but most of the time.


----------



## Arnie83

Mirandashell said:


> @Arnie83 I see what you're saying. I guess as a general trend it works. I just have very little trust in newspaper polls as they are generally wrong. Not just in the last election but most of the time.


Me too. Though if, come December 2018, every poll had a 15-20% lead for Remain, it would be a brave government to push on regardless. Or one under the thrall of a few ideological extremists. (And the mantra of 'The People have Spoken' [2 1/2 years ago] may even start to sound silly to the ones still saying it!)

That may be unlikely, but if the negotiations go the way I think they will, and the Tories remain hopelessly split, it is far from impossible.


----------



## Arnie83

@Mirandashell

This is what I mean: In the run-up to the last election the trend of the polls all showed Labour coming up on the rails. While few got the result right, the trend was clear.










This is the last year's polling, showing the same sort of trend for "Bregret" ...










But a few months to go yet before decisions need to be taken.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> Interesting how the same poll suggests 55% remain! When you say it was a recent poll I wonder if it was conducted before Farage opened his mouth yesterday?
> 
> This I don't really understand. I can see many will be afraid the referendum result could be reversed, then the leave vote could rocket in their favour. The latter could well happen with the media support for Brexit as before.
> 
> Then, with people having a better idea on what Brexit means, hard border in NI etc. leavers could argue we would have no right to protest,(some already say that of course), and this time they'll be right regardless of the consequences of what a hard Brexit entails if there's a clear and decisive majority in favour of it.


Maybe people understand that leaving EU is way more complicated to decide based on a referendum and parliament should eventually make the decision whether Brexit is good for Britain or not. So based on the current facts, majority wants to reman in EU, as that simply benefits UK more than leaving EU and they want parliament to decide it.

And before the decision as much information and analysis should be communicated to puclic in all possible ways so that all could see why parliament made the decision they will eventually make.


----------



## stockwellcat.

So those that wish to have the UK remain in the EU do you know the consequences of holding a second referendum?

Well today the European Commission said if a second referendum was held and remain won the European commission would look at stripping the UK of all its opt outs. These opt outs include keeping the pound sterling (the EU will force the UK to accept the Euro), the UK would lose it's 66% rebate of it's net contributions, the UK would have to join the Schengen zone which it currently is not a member of etc, etc.

So does remaining still look attractive?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...british-rebate-eu-opt-outs-second-brexit/amp/

To me the sooner the UK leaves the better. But you all know that anyway.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So those that wish to have the UK remain in the EU do you know the consequences of holding a second referendum?
> 
> Well today the European Commission said if a second referendum was held and remain won the European commission would look at stripping the UK of all its opt outs. These opt outs include keeping the pound sterling (the EU will force the UK to accept the Euro), the UK would lose it's 66% rebate of it's net contributions, the UK would have to join the Schengen zone which it currently is not a member of etc, etc.
> 
> So does remaining still look attractive?
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...british-rebate-eu-opt-outs-second-brexit/amp/
> 
> To me the sooner the UK leaves the better. But you all know that anyway.


Scaremongering


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Scaremongering


Not me. The Telegraph. If it is scaremongering or the EU commission if it is true.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Not me. The Telegraph. If it is scaremongering or the EU commission if it is true.


It seems highly unlikely to me unless we have actually left and then reapply, in which case them's the rules.

But right now the EU don't want us to leave: they need the money, they want to maintain the integrity of the EU, us leaving makes trade more expensive for them too.

Why would they put obstacles in the way if we decided to abandon Brexit?

Chuka Umunna said a few days ago:
"There is unanimous acceptance that Article 50 is revocable and they would be very very happy for the UK to continue as a member of the club."​
Although he is a Remainer, that seems far more logical and likely to me.


----------



## Mirandashell

Me too. There seems to be this idea that the EU Commission as a whole is a spiteful childish group who want to punish Britain for daring to leave. That to me is a very simplistic ungraded view that groups the Commission as Them whose only wish to discriminate against Us. That's not how the EU works.


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> So those that wish to have the UK remain in the EU do you know the consequences of holding a second referendum?
> 
> Well today the European Commission said if a second referendum was held and remain won the European commission would look at stripping the UK of all its opt outs. These opt outs include keeping the pound sterling (the EU will force the UK to accept the Euro), the UK would lose it's 66% rebate of it's net contributions, the UK would have to join the Schengen zone which it currently is not a member of etc, etc.
> 
> So does remaining still look attractive?
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...british-rebate-eu-opt-outs-second-brexit/amp/
> 
> To me the sooner the UK leaves the better. But you all know that anyway.


Now you are being a bit silly, as EU can´t force anyone to accept Euro. E.g. Swedes have their crown. To join a euro is a choice. We took it and I am happy for it, but lots of countries did not, so it´s their choice.



Mirandashell said:


> Me too. There seems to be this idea that the EU Commission as a whole is a spiteful childish group who want to punish Britain for daring to leave. That to me is a very simplistic ungraded view that groups the Commission as Them whose only wish to discriminate against Us. That's not how the EU works.


You are so right. EU does not want to have UK in a ruin, and most really like UK, like we. Just to show a fact to prove this: EU accepted UK´s "promise" to sort out the NI border. Had we wanted, we could have said negotiations can´t proceed. But we did not. UK is still talking sh***, when it comes to EU. Still you have lots of friends in EU, who would love to have you back.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MrsZee said:


> Now you are being a bit silly, as EU can´t force anyone to accept Euro. E.g. Swedes have their crown. To join a euro is a choice. We took it and I am happy for it, but lots of countries did not, so it´s their choice.
> 
> You are so right. EU does not want to have UK in a ruin, and most really like UK, like we. Just to show a fact to prove this: EU accepted UK´s "promise" to sort out the NI border. Had we wanted, we could have said negotiations can´t proceed. But we did not. UK is still talking sh***, when it comes to EU. Still you have lots of friends in EU, who would love to have you back.


I was just telling everyone what the newspaper said. So not my words. So I am not the one being silly it's the news reporter who wrote the story.


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> I was just telling everyone what the newspaper said. So not my words. So I am not the one being silly it's the news reporter who wrote the story.


Why did you quote that then, if you don´t believe it yourself? You certainly didn´t say that that was just rubbish, did you? I really thought you believed that. But I`m happy you are aware that that was just a lot of bollocks..


----------



## stockwellcat.

MrsZee said:


> Why did you quote that then, if you don´t believe it yourself? You certainly didn´t say that that was just rubbish, did you? I really thought you believed that. But I`m happy you are aware that that was just a lot of bollocks..


Well now you know the tripe the UK newspapers publish to scare leave and remain voters.


----------



## stockwellcat.

I have decided if the remainers get their wish for a 2nd referendum I won't be taking part and voting. I voted once on this and don't intend doing it again. So there you have it. Make what you want out of what I have just said in this post.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> Well now you know the tripe the UK newspapers publish.


Yes. You British also say us Poles can't be trusted. You say us Poles would steal the fillings from your teeth.
Bloody Fools
Why would we do that?


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> Well now you know the tripe the UK newspapers publish to scare leave and remain voters.


That is a second thing we agree on, almost. Remainers tend to have links and analysis backing there stories, where leavers don´t. But tabloids are all just rubbish, I 100% agree with you,



stockwellcat. said:


> I have decided if the remainers get their wish for a 2nd referendum I won't be taking part and voting. I voted once on this and don't intend doing it again. So there you have it. Make what you want out of what I have just said in this post.
> To me personally if another refeendum takes place it will be a politically wrong and the Government or anyone in Parliament would never be trusted again.


Shall we believe you or not? But was Farage a remainer and didn´t he want to have another referendum and then not? It´s like just Jack Sparrow said - it´s knowing what you want that is tricky.


----------



## stockwellcat.

MrsZee said:


> That is a second thing we agree on, almost. Remainers tend to have links and analysis backing there stories, where leavers don´t. But tabloids are all just rubbish, I 100% agree with you,
> 
> Shall we believe you or not? But was Farage a remainer and didn´t he want to have another referendum and then not? It´s like just Jack Sparrow said - it´s knowing what you want that is tricky.


Well believe me or not up to you. But I will not be participating in something I have already voted on. Having a second vote to undermine the first vote will see all the trust in the UK politicians vanish and Parliamentary MP's and any UK Government would never be trusted again both at home here in the UK and abroad. Of course the EU will punish the UK for putting them through this and then reversing the decision, don't think for one minute they won't, if a second referendum took place.

But as it stands at the moment the UK is still leaving the EU which is what I voted for and I am happy about.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> *I will not be participating in something I have already voted on*.
> *
> Having a second vote to undermine* *the first vote will see all the trust in the UK politicians vanish*.


*A no vote is a lost vote, stockwellcat.
You of all people should remember that.*







​And UK politicians have trust?

Why, I wouldn't trust the pack of lying, thieving 845t4rd5 with a bag full of Oscar's sh1te.:Stop


----------



## Mirandashell

No-one trusts politicians now. So a second referendum isn't going to change that. But what will do is give us, the ones most effected, a chance to decide now we know more about it. We, the public, are the ones that should decide. Not a bunch of incompetents who are only in power cos they joined up with homophobic racist religious nutjobs.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Mirandashell said:


> No-one trusts politicians now. So a second referendum isn't going to change that. But what will do is give us, the ones most effected, a chance to decide now we know more about it. We, the public, are the ones that should decide. Not a bunch of incompetents who are only in power cos they joined up with homophobic racist religious nutjobs.


Thats a bit harsh. The Conservatives were the party that legalised gay marriage, so as a party aren't homophobic. The only religious nut job has left his job as party leader (Tim Farron) because he let his religion get in the way of his political career, that was his reason for leaving his job as leader of the Lib Dems.


----------



## Mirandashell

I wasn't talking about the Tories. I was talking about the DUP.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I lost count how many times you have said the word non-binding and that phrase is a bit worn after nearly 2 years of hearing it.


As is you not having anything to back up the idea that there are advantages to leaving with any evidence. Despite evidence to the contrary.



MrsZee said:


> Now you are being a bit silly, as EU can´t force anyone to accept Euro. E.g. Swedes have their crown. To join a euro is a choice. We took it and I am happy for it, but lots of countries did not, so it´s their choice.


Actually no longer true. All NEW members will have to accept the condition that they accept the euro and schengen. Difference is the UK wouldn't have left. That's one of the reasons we need to prevent the UK from leaving as we cannot simply reverse it at a later date, rejoin and be the same as before.


----------



## Guest

Goblin said:


> All NEW members will have to accept the condition that they accept the euro and schengen. Difference is the UK wouldn't have left. That's one of the reasons we need to prevent the UK from leaving as we cannot simply reverse it at a later date, rejoin and be the same as before.


I didn´t know that, thanks for clearing it out. I agree, yet another reason to not to leave. Though we like euro...


----------



## Magyarmum

MrsZee said:


> I didn´t know that, thanks for clearing it out. I agree, yet another reason to not to leave. Though we like euro...


You might find this an interesting read ..........

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries_en


----------



## Guest

Thanks for this, though Turkey´s chance of ever becoming an EU country is pretty slim and now with Erdogan non existence. Serbia has done a lot to become a member e.g. developed the legislation. But for the other candidates EU is a way to take a step forward.


----------



## Arnie83

While negotiations continue with various outcomes still possible ...

Can someone who supports leaving the EU outline to me the practical difference between having to follow EU rules and having to follow WTO rules?


----------



## cheekyscrip

:Muted


Arnie83 said:


> While negotiations continue with various outcomes still possible ...
> 
> Can someone who supports leaving the EU outline to me the practical difference between having to follow EU rules and having to follow WTO rules?


Naughty of you!!!
And you just won TNMotW title!!!

But I could sum it up on their behalf:

U.K. on WTO rules - fabulous deals with the University and beyond...
U.K. to follow EU rules - modern slavery in hands of Brussels sprouts.

Remember!!! EU have more to lose and we don't need experts.:Muted


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> :Muted
> Naughty of you!!!
> And you just won TNMotW title!!!
> 
> But I could sum it up on their behalf:
> 
> U.K. on WTO rules - fabulous deals with the University and beyond...
> U.K. to follow EU rules - modern slavery in hands of Brussels sprouts.
> 
> Remember!!! EU have more to lose and we don't need experts.:Muted


I wasn't trying to be provocative. :Sorry

It's not the actual rules I was wondering about, but the requirement that we follow them. I'm not sure why following EU rules is so bad, but we're happy to follow WTO rules.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I wasn't trying to be provocative. :Sorry
> 
> It's not the actual rules I was wondering about, but the requirement that we follow them. I'm not sure why following EU rules is so bad, but we're happy to follow WTO rules.


Sorry, it is just said me being facetious...
By the way you won The Nicest Member of the Week price, to be collected in Gibraltar...


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> Sorry, it is just said me being facetious...
> By the way you won The Nicest Member of the Week price, to be collected in Gibraltar...


Thank you! Next time my cruise ship calls in I'll make sure I pick it up! (Along with the tax-free booze)


----------



## Arnie83

I guess it's not the fact that the EU makes a number of good laws like credit card charges - the figures I quoted a little while ago showed that we voted in favour of 95% of them, and against only 2%. And it's not that there are some terrible laws that damage the UK - at least, I'm not aware of any.

It's just that we aren't in a position to decide on every law / regulation we have to follow that upsets some people.

That's why I asked about the difference between following WTO rules and following EU rules. I don't really understand the difference if it's following rules that upsets people.

When we get our nice blue passport (in place of the non-compulsory burgundy one that 'humiliated' some Tory MP) we still won't have much choice but to follow the ICAO standards on size and format, but I haven't heard anyone complain about that.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> I guess it's not the fact that the EU makes a number of good laws like credit card charges - the figures I quoted a little while ago showed that we voted in favour of 95% of them, and against only 2%. And it's not that there are some terrible laws that damage the UK - at least, I'm not aware of any.
> 
> It's just that we aren't in a position to decide on every law / regulation we have to follow that upsets some people.
> 
> That's why I asked about the difference between following WTO rules and following EU rules. I don't really understand the difference if it's following rules that upsets people.
> 
> When we get our nice blue passport (in place of the non-compulsory burgundy one that 'humiliated' some Tory MP) we still won't have much choice but to follow the ICAO standards on size and format, but I haven't heard anyone complain about that.


Problem is that our government may soon change those good laws protecting customers or workers or environment....

Neither we could complain to ECJ anymore.


----------



## Arnie83

A report for the Scottish government has compared costs to their economy by 2030 of various Brexit scenarios

'No deal' WTO rules would mean an 8.5% reduction in GDP growth amounting to £2,300 for each person in Scotland

A Canada-style free trade deal would mean a 6.1% reduction equaling £1,610 pp

Retained single market membership (the EEA option) would leave people 2.7% worse off, or £688 pp.

I haven't seen the figures behind the report so can't comment on what assumptions they might have made.

The Scottish Tories (who I'm betting haven't seen them either) have called it "completely over-the-top scaremongering".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42682253


----------



## KittenKong

From December 2016, interesting indeed.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...vote-for-orders-fall-government-eu-referendum









While many will argue this has nothing to do with Brexit the government could be accused of turning a blind eye to the financial problems of the firm through their obsession with Brexit while still not deciding what exactly Brexit will mean.

Apart from being, ahem, Brexit of course.....


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> From December 2016, interesting indeed.
> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...vote-for-orders-fall-government-eu-referendum
> View attachment 341769
> 
> 
> While many will argue this has nothing to do with Brexit the government could be accused of turning a blind eye to the financial problems of the firm through their obsession with Brexit while still not deciding what exactly Brexit will mean.
> 
> Apart from being, ahem, Brexit of course.....


Certainly the vote would have had some effect on the business they were receiving, but I think the main problem lies with the management at the top of Carillion not reacting to mitigate a problem that was obvious over a year ago.


----------



## Guest

Where are the good news telling about the benefits Brexit would bring? So far I have heard only misunderstandings or direct lies about how UK can finally decide about it´s own matters (which it has been able to do all along) or how some don´t like Juncker (that of course is a fact no one can dispute - if you don´t like someone that´s it). But are the actual benefits, like UK will gain better deals with EU countries or WTO countries? Or is that UK can make better deals with countries it didn´t want to business? (=dictatorships). I can´t see that being a benefit either. 

There are a couple of benefits though that are likely to happen: UK will become a tax haven, where corporations won´t have to pay much if any taxes, and a lot of the public sector will be privatized. Also there will be less consumer/worker/ environmental legislation and that is lucrative to many companies. That is why I can see why those tories, who represent big corporation and investors, are supporting Brexit, especially hard Brexit. Also hardliners, like nazis, usually like a divided nation. 

Naturally that would mean that most British would lose, NHS would be sold to international corporations, and the nation would be divided even more into poor and rich. The discussion should be open and active about these matters, and not about the colour of the passport or some other totally trivial matter. 

Labour should be way more active analysing the consequences, as should "serious media" (=not tabloids). To me Labour has been too weak to oppose Brexit, as they will surely know by now, who definately will lose. Middle class and poor alike. But Im´t not following British politics so mush, so maybe they are starting to react now and will communicate clearly and relentlessly what will happen to the British way of life, if big corporations take over? Talk about freedom then..


----------



## Arnie83

On the subject of the benefits of leaving, a genuine question for the leavers on here ...

Control of our borders has been a much-cited benefit, and was near the top of post-referendum polling as the main reason for voting leave.

How are we going to control our borders if there is not going to be any border at all in Ireland? What is to stop people just coming into the UK; by which I mean Northern Ireland? May has stated that NI will not be treated any differently from the rest of the UK, so how is she planning to control that 'border'?


----------



## Goblin

@Arnie83.. you know you will not get answers to this sort of question. You'll get either "this thread is simply repeating itself", "I'm leaving", "we won the vote", silence or some diversion from the question.



KittenKong said:


> From December 2016, interesting indeed.


Interesting the difference in viewpoints. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nt-contractor-Carillion-goes-liquidation.html


----------



## stockwellcat.

Oh look 135,566+ people want the UK to leave the EU immediately. Lets have another referendum. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/200165

Lets look at the map where people are signing this petition most:








Oh look people are signing it all over the UK including Scotland, Shetland Islands, Wales, Northern Ireland and England.

There's definitely more people wanting to leave the EU immediately and this cannot be ignored.

By the way if you want to sign the petition it is still open and Parliament is debating the petition on the 22nd January 2018 and the number is still going up.

Yes a bit of justified sarcasm etc in this post :Wideyed :Smuggrin


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Oh look 135,566+ people want the UK to leave the EU immediately. Lets have another referendum.
> 
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/200165
> 
> Lets look at the map where people are signing this petition most:
> View attachment 341806
> 
> Oh look people are signing it all over the UK including Scotland, Shetland Islands, Wales, Northern Ireland and England.
> 
> There's definitely more people wanting to leave the EU immediately and this cannot be ignored.
> 
> By the way if you want to sign the petition it is still open and Parliament is debating the petition on the 22nd January 2018 and the number is still going up.
> 
> Yes a bit of justified sarcasm etc in this post :Wideyed :Smuggrin


That's 0.2% of the UK population. Probably not enough to make a reasonable case.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> That's 0.2% of the UK population. Probably not enough to make a reasonable case.


Well I don't think you're going to get your reversal referendum as MP's are coming forward in Parliament saying no way to a 2nd referendum across the House not just on one side of the Houses of Parliament.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well I don't think you're going to get your reversal referendum as MP's are coming forward in Parliament saying no way to a 2nd referendum across the House not just on one side of the Houses of Parliament.


The time to decide about a 2nd referendum is when we know the outcome of the negotiations. In principle it can be argued now, but there is more chance of the public backing it when they the cost of what awaits them once we leave.

Although in preference to a second referendum I'd like to see the MPs doing their duty in the national interest and just calling it all off.

Did you have an answer to the question of Northern Ireland's open border that I mentioned in post 1048?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> The time to decide about a 2nd referendum is when we know the outcome of the negotiations. In principle it can be argued now, but there is more chance of the public backing it when they the cost of what awaits them once we leave.
> 
> Although in preference to a second referendum I'd like to see the MPs doing their duty in the national interest and just calling it all off.
> 
> Did you have an answer to the question of Northern Ireland's open border that I mentioned in post 1048?


The Governments reaponse to the above petition:


> *The country voted to leave the EU, and the **Government is clear that there must be no attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door, and no second referendum.*


That must be so hard to undersrand for remainers.


----------



## Mirandashell

Why would it be hard to understand? That's a bit rude. We aren't stupid. 

It's the Government being stubborn and Tory. I wouldn't believe it anyway. It's not like you can trust May to keep her word on anything.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The Governments response to the above petition:
> 
> *The country voted to leave the EU, and the Government is clear that there must be no attempts to remain inside the EU, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door, and no second referendum.*
> 
> That must be so hard to understand for remainers.


I'm not sure I understand, but only because it seems a very odd response to a petition demanding that we immediately leave the EU.

Did you have an answer to the question of Northern Ireland's open border that I mentioned in post 1048?


----------



## KittenKong

This is getting beyond stupid.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> This is getting beyond stupid.
> 
> View attachment 341856


What utter twaddle!

French has been the second language on British passports from since long before the UK joined the EU.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...is-still-essential-to-a-British-passport.html

And if these ignorant g**s knew their history they'd know exactly why we have (Norman) French on the covers of our passports!

https://www.thoughtco.com/honi-soit-qui-mal-y-pense-1368779

I for one hate the maroon passports .... I don't want my passport to look like everyone elses when I stand in the EU citizens queue. I remember once arriving in Nairobi and being ushered to the head of the long line simply because a customs officer had recognised that my blue passport meant I was British!


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> The Governments reaponse to the above petition:
> That must be so hard to undersrand for remainers.


Funny that the government doesn't believe in democracy and doing what is best for the country isn't it. Neither they nor leavers can provide advantages to leaving which stand up to simple logic and facts. Doesn't mean they cannot be influenced, after all there definately wasn't going to be a general election was there. Times change as does government policy.



Magyarmum said:


> I for one hate the maroon passports .... I don't want my passport to look like everyone elses when I stand in the EU citizens queue. I remember once arriving in Nairobi and being ushered to the head of the long line simply because a customs officer had recognised that my blue passport meant I was British!


Yet this could have been changed at any time in the EU. Colour of passports is not defined/set by the EU.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> This is getting beyond stupid.
> 
> View attachment 341856


That's got to be a wind-up, hasn't it?


----------



## Bisbow

Arnie83 said:


> That's got to be a wind-up, hasn't it?


Breaking a promise to myself here

I think it is a wind up from remainers who are getting desperate to get us to change our minds
They are trying everything they can think of, silly things and now this

I can tell them this, I AM NOT changing my mind


----------



## Jesthar

KittenKong said:


> This is getting beyond stupid.
> 
> View attachment 341856


Actually, I think we could do even better - Greece is also an EU country, so we should remove all words of Greek etymology too. And Latin was imported by the Romans, who came from Italy, so better crack down on those words too.

And anything Germanic, of course, is right out!


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> Breaking a promise to myself here
> 
> I think it is a wind up from remainers who are getting desperate to get us to change our minds
> They are trying everything they can think of, silly things and now this


Well it's certainly a theory. What other silly things have they done?


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> I can tell them this, I AM NOT changing my mind


Hardly a shock even though you cannot justify harming the country on a whim. When evidence doesn't change your mind nothing will.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Breaking a promise to myself here
> 
> I think it is a wind up from remainers who are getting desperate to get us to change our minds
> They are trying everything they can think of, silly things and now this
> 
> I can tell them this, I AM NOT changing my mind


I don't know though. This is something I'd expect from, "The Sun" who are after all having "won" their campaign to get the blue passports back after 30 years they're now campaigning for pro Brexit stamps. These little things that would cause embarrassment to many Brexiteers let alone remainers.


----------



## Goblin

Majority of times it's actually better to work with others to achieve a goal rather than stand on your own and suffer for it. Tell me what does standing on your own actually gain you? Sounds great, means nothing unless you can actually demonstrate advantages.


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> Well, those same old replies took longer than I thought they would
> 
> Why, if you are so against leaving don't you do something constructive about it ?
> Like standing as a MP or organising a public meeting outside no 10 or Westminster
> 
> But no, you would rather sit behind a computer screen searching for any negative you can find waiting for Auntie EU to tell you what to do and how and when to do it
> 
> You seen unable to stand on your own two feet without help as we leavers can and will do when we do leave
> 
> Just to add, I do not read the Sun or any of it's tripe as you seem to


I don't know if that was aimed at me, but it's way too late for me to become an MP between now and March next year.

What I am doing is repeatedly writing to Messrs Davis and Verhofstadt reminding them of my wish, and that of many others, to become an Associate EU Citizen. I'd much prefer that to having to be solely British, having to describe myself as which doesn't sit well with me these days.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> You seen unable to stand on your own two feet without help as we leavers can and will do when we do leave


Really? That's pure fantasy. Why do you think May and co are panicking over strained relationships with Trump and the US? All this crap about the, "Special relationship".

If the UK wants to stand up on its own two feet they would stand up to the US, not bow to them.


----------



## Goblin

Still no answers to the questions I notice @Arnie83 asked. Simply "I will not change my mind". I'm quite prepared and not afraid to change my mind if people can provide reasoning to do so.


----------



## Arnie83

The truth is that I think mankind is better set for a peaceful and collectively prosperous future the larger the groupings in which they arrange themselves. I therefore prefer the EU to the UK, and would prefer the G(lobal)U to the EU.

A preference for the UK to 'stand on its own two feet' is similarly nothing to do with coping. Of course we'll cope.

But the notion seems to me to point to a selfish disregard for the well-being of many other humans in this world whose misfortune is to be born in less wealthy countries than ours. And a preference to compete with other countries as opposed to pooling (some of) what we have for the greater good. And to deny succour to those forced from their homes by war because we would then have to suffer the horror of foreign food aisles in Tescos, strange languages on the bus, and people whose religion is different from - though no more ridiculous - than that with which we were brought up.

Only this morning, the Brexit enthusiasts of the Daily Express had a front page spread about ending the 'madness' of foreign aid.

That why I have gone off Britain. It's the attitude of too many of the inhabitants. It isn't because I somehow can't cope without the EU.



Bisbow said:


> You can all say just what you like about me, I am not bothered any more


I didn't say anything about you, and will continue not doing so. I try to treat this thread as being about Brexit, not the posters.


----------



## Bisbow

Mirandashell said:


> Don't know why you like my post. It was aimed at your flounce! Not quite Stockwellcat standard but not bad.


Thought you were being sarcastic , sorry I got you wrong


----------



## Mirandashell

I was being sarky! 

I'm just going to step away quietly.......


----------



## Mirandashell

:Facepalm


----------



## Jesthar

Mirandashell said:


> :Facepalm


Yup...


----------



## kimthecat

**

*David Baddiel*‏Verified [email protected]*Baddiel* 7h7 hours ago

Emmanuel Macron auditions for Bond villain (scene where he thinks he holds all the cards despite what 007 is saying).


----------



## Goblin

kimthecat said:


> **
> 
> *David Baddiel*‏Verified [email protected]*Baddiel* 7h7 hours ago
> 
> Emmanuel Macron auditions for Bond villain (scene where he thinks he holds all the cards despite what 007 is saying).


Trouble is in this version he, along with others does hold the cards. It's the version where rather than explain his plans to Bond and allow him to escape, he simplies shoots Bond in the head and carries on. Brexit is real and the consequences are real, not fiction and fantasy.


----------



## Arnie83

I noticed that a recent, rather intemperate posting included this comment with regard to those who are still opposed to Brexit:



> ... waiting for Auntie EU to tell you what to do and how and when to do it


I didn't respond directly because it was clearly intended provocatively, but it made me think again on something I questioned earlier about us taking back control of our laws.

I have to pay all my taxes, and obey the rules of the road, and all criminal law in the UK, and tonight I have to put out my recycling on the orders of the council - carefully sorted according to their instructions - and all sorts of other things that are mandated by government and local administrations ...

But I can't think of a single thing that I have to do because the EU has told me to.

Can anyone give me some examples of their onerous edicts from which I, personally, will be freed come March next year?


----------



## Magyarmum

Arnie83 said:


> I noticed that a recent, rather intemperate posting included this comment with regard to those who are still opposed to Brexit:
> 
> I didn't respond directly because it was clearly intended provocatively, but it made me think again on something I questioned earlier about us taking back control of our laws.
> 
> I have to pay all my taxes, and obey the rules of the road, and all criminal law in the UK, and tonight I have to put out my recycling on the orders of the council - carefully sorted according to their instructions - and all sorts of other things that are mandated by government and local administrations ...
> 
> But I can't think of a single thing that I have to do because the EU has told me to.
> 
> Can anyone give me some examples of their onerous edicts from which I, personally, will be freed come March next year?


https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...-barmy-decisions-rules-regulations-Britain-EU


----------



## Arnie83

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...-barmy-decisions-rules-regulations-Britain-EU


Er, yes, thanks for that! 

It hows how difficult it is to find actual examples, since not one of those has any effect on me whatsoever.

Also that the Express's 'Top Ten pointless decisions the UK can now get rid of' include ...

"Diabetics should be BANNED from the roads" shock horror! Followed by "the rules were never enforced". So not much to get rid of there, then! (They were never rules, either!)

"Eggs CANNOT be sold by the dozen" followed by "British shoppers can still buy a dozen of [sic] eggs". So in fact, they CAN.

And my favourite ... 
"The price of oven gloves soared when the EU imposed rigorous testing on these household products to stop people being injured. Bonkers Brussels deemed it to be important that oven gloves underwent tests to ensure they could cope under the pressure of 200c heat."​It borders on the evil, doesn't it! Thank heavens we can stop doing that.

And to think @Goblin can't find benefits of leaving!


----------



## Goblin

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...-barmy-decisions-rules-regulations-Britain-EU


I think that more than adequately proves the point somehow. When they have to resort to "EU found no conclusive science" and list it as a pointless decision. Did you know here in Germany I buy 6 or 12 eggs, even in the marketplace where he doesn't weigh them.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I don't know though. This is something I'd expect from, "The Sun" who are after all having "won" their campaign to get the blue passports back after 30 years they're now campaigning for pro Brexit stamps. These little things that would cause embarrassment to many Brexiteers let alone remainers.
> View attachment 341866


Have you seen James Feltons reaction to that gormless Leadsom KK?

James Felton Retweeted Andrea Leadsom MP

"_520 days into Brexit. No progress has been made on the border, trade or 
customs. What shall we focus on? Any ideas?"

"Brexity stamps. Little stamps for people who want to post things in a way that
shows they hate the EU"

_
_ "You've done it again, Andrea__, you ******* genius_"

,.................................................................................................................................................


----------



## noushka05

Government blames the EU for their own destructive polices while taking credit for the good EU does for us And many think we'll be safer in the hands of the tories? When will they realise the EU protects us from our own government?. The tories are bunch of shameless shysters. I can't believe so many people allow themselves to be duped by them & their mates in the media

Tories take credit for EU plastic bag policy they consistently opposed - https://evolvepolitics.com/shameful...ic-bag-policy-that-they-consistently-opposed/

*Guy Verhofstadt*‏Verified [email protected]*guyverhofstadt* 21h21 hours ago

_Farage's confusion is contagious: Gove doesnt seem to remember that action on plastic bags stems from EU regulation.
PM May doesnt seem to know the ban on credit card surcharges is based on EU directive.
The recently announced change to British passports was possible inside the EU_.

..


----------



## KittenKong

Interesting. 
I can see that hard border coming!


----------



## noushka05

This country is finished.

*James O'Brien*‏Verified [email protected]*mrjamesob* Jan 16

The Government was Carillion's biggest customer by far. Carillion has gone bust.
The Government continued to shower Carillion with lucrative contracts as the company collapsed.

And now the Government will negotiate our Brexit deal.

.......................................................................................................


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


>


I assume that is a genuine Dorries tweet. If so it is quite scandalous.

The government's own figures show that EU immigration has boosted GDP and contributed billions more in taxes than they have cost the country in services.

The fact that the Tories have seen fit to spend that money on lowering taxes for the richest while simultaneously reducing, in real terms, the amount ploughed into education is hardly the fault of the migrants.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> Interesting.
> I can see that hard border coming!
> 
> View attachment 341957


Still waiting for an answer to my question to our Brexiteer posters of how we take back control the UK border while simultaneously imposing no border at all in Ireland, as per May's absolute promise.

Anyone?


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> And goblin, you have had all the answers you need but choose to ignore them, carry on in your ivory tower


Says it all really. Unable to actually post anything which stands up to reality and facts and accuse people supporting remaining of living in an ivory tower.


----------



## Elles

I don’t think we are better when there are more of us. Small villages are nicer than cities. I hate large crowds. It seems the plan is to organise continents against each other. Europe is better than the US or China and as for Russia, scary. Let’s make a big, strong Europe to protect ourselves. They’re practically building a wall around Europe, to stop (poor) people getting in. Is that better than being just the U.K.? Why don’t nurses and doctors get the same pay in Hungary as they do in Britain? It’s all Europe. Why should Hungary and Poland train dentists for us for free? The Eu isn’t working. It would be better as a cooperative, but it’s not working that way, it’s a machine and eventually imo, regardless of what Britain does, it will fail.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> I don't think we are better when there are more of us. Small villages are nicer than cities. I hate large crowds. It seems the plan is to organise continents against each other. Europe is better than the US or China and as for Russia, scary. Let's make a big, strong Europe to protect ourselves. They're practically building a wall around Europe, to stop (poor) people getting in. Is that better than being just the U.K.? Why don't nurses and doctors get the same pay in Hungary as they do in Britain? It's all Europe. Why should Hungary and Poland train dentists for us for free? The Eu isn't working. It would be better as a cooperative, but it's not working that way, it's a machine and eventually imo, regardless of what Britain does, it will fail.


You could ask why many "British" Doctors and other professionals' emigrate to places like Australia which is certainly not the fault of the EU!

Are you suggesting people should be forced to stay in their countries of origin? That's already been tried with the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain.

The comparatively low pay in other EU countries is the fault of their governments, not the EU itself.

Then perhaps the EU should intervene. They'll be accused of interfering in the affairs of individual countries if they do. You cannot win.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> Still waiting for an answer to my question to our Brexiteer posters of how we take back control the UK border while simultaneously imposing no border at all in Ireland, as per May's absolute promise.
> 
> Anyone?


The question of having an open border between UK and EU in Ireland was raised at a debate I attended shortly before the referendum. No answer was given other than a dismissive boat loads of immigrants don`t land in Ireland so not a problem of them getting into UK that way!


----------



## Arnie83

3dogs2cats said:


> The question of having an open border between UK and EU in Ireland was raised at a debate I attended shortly before the referendum. No answer was given other than a dismissive boat loads of immigrants don`t land in Ireland so not a problem of them getting into UK that way!


Dismissive answers to the hard questions have been plentiful in the last 18 months or so!

So no-one at your debate pointed out that any EU citizen is free to come to Ireland by boat or plane, and that the borderless UK (i.e. NI) is completely open to them.

Because the only available answer is that NI is different from the rest of the UK, and that's exactly the opposite of what May (and the DUP) are saying.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I don't think we are better when there are more of us. Small villages are nicer than cities. I hate large crowds. It seems the plan is to organise continents against each other. Europe is better than the US or China and as for Russia, scary. Let's make a big, strong Europe to protect ourselves. They're practically building a wall around Europe, to stop (poor) people getting in. Is that better than being just the U.K.? Why don't nurses and doctors get the same pay in Hungary as they do in Britain? It's all Europe. Why should Hungary and Poland train dentists for us for free? The Eu isn't working. It would be better as a cooperative, but it's not working that way, it's a machine and eventually imo, regardless of what Britain does, it will fail.


You're doing that thing again of not quoting the post you're replying to.  But I'm still sober at this time of day, so I spotted it!

I too much prefer small villages to large cities, but by 'better' I mean, simply, less likely to fight each other, and I think we have just about moved beyond that where villages are concerned.

What I want to see us doing is moving beyond it where _countries_ are concerned. That's why I like supra-national arrangements. The closer we are all tied together, the less likely we are to come to blows. Unless you're a special kind of stupid, you don't aim to trash the country/ies on which your own prosperity depends.

I agree with all the points you've made about the downsides and failures of the EU, and I'm sure it isn't the final template on which other similar blocs will be built. It might well fall apart - at least partially, as non-euro satellite countries become ever more divergent.

But it's only been there (in all its forms) for 60 odd years. That isn't all that long, and it has developed a lot. Some changes good, some bad. Some perhaps to show others the way in future, and others to provide warnings.

It's a work in progress, on which I hope others will build.

What the UK has done, though, is say that the very idea is bad. We don't want to work on it, improve it; we want to abandon it and revert to the past. We want to be insular, reinforcing our borders rather than blurring them. Emphasizing our differences rather than seeking to build on the commonalities. We are Britain and we want to stand alone; we don't want to be part of anything else. We're not ready for that.

Our tribe may be a lot bigger than the ones that characterised early h. sapiens, and bigger than those of early 'Britain' like the Iceni, Brigantes, Coritani etc. But our attitudes don't seem to me to have changed much at all.

Now that we have the resources and the technology to provide for all the humans on the planet without threatening our own existence - the lack of which made tribalism a vital evolutionary trait thousands of years ago - it's high time they did.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I assume that is a genuine Dorries tweet. If so it is quite scandalous.
> 
> The government's own figures show that EU immigration has boosted GDP and contributed billions more in taxes than they have cost the country in services.
> 
> The fact that the Tories have seen fit to spend that money on lowering taxes for the richest while simultaneously reducing, in real terms, the amount ploughed into education is hardly the fault of the migrants.


Well, pro badger culling, Nadine blocked me a few years ago for trying to explain she was spreading lies about badgers. I can confirm that is a genuine tweet though. Nadine & her cohorts are nothing more than a bunch of unscrupulous liars. Every time they open their mouths the lies pour out. No different from Trump and his band of charlatans. How any right minded person can continue to support or trust these liars is beyond me.

Heres May getting mocked for lying AGAIN.

_http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-minister-theresa-may-eu-rules-a8157521.html_


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear, so much for attracting the young to their cause. Another TM own goal. This from, "The Guardian"























Perhaps he's suggesting everyone should become MPs if they want a higher paid job!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Arnie83 said:


> Dismissive answers to the hard questions have been plentiful in the last 18 months or so!
> 
> So no-one at you r debate pointed out that any EU citizen is free to come to Ireland by boat or plane, and that the borderless UK (i.e. NI) is completely open to them.
> 
> Because the only available answer is that NI is different from the rest of the UK, and that's exactly the opposite of what May (and the DUP) are saying.


Oh yes our MEP on the side of remain certainly addressed the Irish border issue and the fact EU citizens would still be free to enter the UK if Ireland was to remain borderless. She received no real answer or even suggestions for a solution but the compare wanted to move on so she wasn`t able to go back to the issue!!


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> Still waiting for an answer to my question to our Brexiteer posters of how we take back control the UK border while simultaneously imposing no border at all in Ireland, as per May's absolute promise.
> 
> Anyone?


Perhaps you should address your question to someone whose motivation for voting leave was to "take back control of the UK border" or at the very least someone who knows what that phrase even means.


----------



## Satori

KittenKong said:


> You could ask why many "British" Doctors and other professionals' emigrate to places like Australia which is certainly not the fault of the EU!


Weather.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Perhaps you should address your question to someone whose motivation for voting leave was to "take back control of the UK border" or at the very least someone who knows what that phrase even means.


I don't know what people's individual motivations were, to be honest, but border control was second on Ashcroft's post-vote polling list so I was guessing at least some of our leavers must want it.

Maybe I was wrong, and they're all happy with free movement.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Colliebarmy

We wont ever leave.

May will lose the next election, Corbyn will have a 2nd referendum, the remainers will win

The UK had its chance and blew it


----------



## KittenKong

Colliebarmy said:


> We wont ever leave.
> 
> May will lose the next election, Corbyn will have a 2nd referendum, the remainers will win
> 
> The UK had its chance and blew it


Corbyn won't have a second referendum because he's ruled that out. I doubt he would win the next election anyway.

It's unlikely they'll be a second referendum but don't forget TM insisted on no early General Election this time last year!


----------



## stockwellcat.

Colliebarmy said:


> We wont ever leave.
> 
> May will lose the next election, Corbyn will have a 2nd referendum, the remainers will win
> 
> The UK had its chance and blew it


Jermey Corbyn will not have a second referendum as he has ruled it out. Theresa May will probably be ousted before the next GE (after Brexit) or shortly afterwards.


----------



## Goblin

Colliebarmy said:


> The UK had its chance and blew it


Chance for what? Leavers have shown they cannot even answer basic questions about leaving.

Edit: Not a contest between leavers and those who wish to remain. It's doing what is best for the country. Again it's telling that leavers do not push "the advantages" of leaving but try to make it them vs us.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Chance for what? Leavers have shown they cannot even answer basic questions about leaving.
> 
> Edit: Not a contest between leavers and those who wish to remain. It's doing what is best for the country. Again it's telling that leavers do not push "the advantages" of leaving but try to make it them vs us.


There were myriad reasons people had for voting leave, and you asking for the millionth time is never going to change the fact that none of these answers will ever satisfy you, which is fine, you are very against it, but your constant, aggressive demands are really rather tiresome. Can we agree that you will stop asking the same questions over and over again, and maybe we can try and move on with the conversation? We still have another 14 months to go, and I'm not sure how many people will be able to bear you constantly going around in circles.

Re them vs us, I'm not sure you can pin this purely on the leavers, I think both sides are as culpable as each other. I doubt we'll ever manage to work together, more's the pity, but the fact is that we're leaving and it should now be a combined effort to make it as successful as possible, not try and tear it down so that certain hardliners can point and yell "I told you so".


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 342066


 That's nonsense !


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 342066


Utter rubbish.


----------



## stockwellcat.

@KittenKong post 1108 is rubbish and here is why. We don't know what the deal is at the moment, that is what is happening next (phase 2). Secondly even if we are out of free movement zone in the EU you can still travel to other EU countries and settle there if you wish, you may just need to get a visa to do so. You'd still have to register (get a residency certificate in your passport and show you have the appropiate finances to support yourself and health insurance in that country) in the country you wish to settle in like you have to now and fill in the necessary paperwork including criminal background checks that the authorities do of the country you wish to settle in after you retire. Its utter rubbish you cannot retire in another EU country after Brexit.

That screen shot is so wrong in many ways.


----------



## KittenKong

What a horrible country this is becoming. I'd hoped this was a joke.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> What a horrible country this is becoming. I'd hoped this was a joke.
> 
> View attachment 342087
> View attachment 342088


Quite correct, utterly uncalled for. This does nothing for or against Brexit. I wonder if the Sun staff let their teenage children loose


----------



## Arnie83

Doesn't surprise me in the least.


----------



## kimthecat

This is disgraceful 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/13/german-court-rules-synagogue-torching-not-anti-sem/

A German regional court has ruled that three men who used Molotov cocktails in July 2014 to torch a synagogue were not influenced by anti-Semitism.

A Wuppertal judge last Friday upheld a lower court's 2015 ruling that German-Palestinians convicted of arson against the city's synagogue did so merely to "criticize Israel" and "bring attention to the Gaza conflict." Fire damage caused by 31-year-old Mohamad E., 26-year-old Ismail A. and 20-year-old Mohammad A. (full names withheld by German authorities) totaled almost $850.

The court went on to cite Israel's Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in the summer of 2014 - and the criminals' consumption of alcohol - as the apparent impetus for the crime, the Jerusalem Post reported Friday.

"What do Jews in Germany have to do with the Middle East conflict? Every bit as much as Christians, non-religious people or Muslims in Germany, namely, absolutely nothing," said Volker Beck, a leading Green Party MP, after the lower court's initial ruling, JP reported. "The ignorance of the judiciary toward anti-Semitism is for many Jews in Germany especially alarming."

The is not the first time Wuppertal's court system has made national news in a story linked to Islam. Its district court judges ruled last November that gangs of men who harangued citizens in 2014 while wearing "shariah police" vests did not break any laws.

A judge ruled that there was no "intimidating effect" from the group's behavior, which was headed by extremist preacher Sven Lau, Deutsche Welle reported Nov. 21, 2016.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> This is disgraceful
> 
> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/13/german-court-rules-synagogue-torching-not-anti-sem/
> 
> A German regional court has ruled that three men who used Molotov cocktails in July 2014 to torch a synagogue were not influenced by anti-Semitism.
> 
> A Wuppertal judge last Friday upheld a lower court's 2015 ruling that German-Palestinians convicted of arson against the city's synagogue did so merely to "criticize Israel" and "bring attention to the Gaza conflict." Fire damage caused by 31-year-old Mohamad E., 26-year-old Ismail A. and 20-year-old Mohammad A. (full names withheld by German authorities) totaled almost $850.
> 
> The court went on to cite Israel's Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in the summer of 2014 - and the criminals' consumption of alcohol - as the apparent impetus for the crime, the Jerusalem Post reported Friday.
> 
> "What do Jews in Germany have to do with the Middle East conflict? Every bit as much as Christians, non-religious people or Muslims in Germany, namely, absolutely nothing," said Volker Beck, a leading Green Party MP, after the lower court's initial ruling, JP reported. "The ignorance of the judiciary toward anti-Semitism is for many Jews in Germany especially alarming."
> 
> The is not the first time Wuppertal's court system has made national news in a story linked to Islam. Its district court judges ruled last November that gangs of men who harangued citizens in 2014 while wearing "shariah police" vests did not break any laws.
> 
> A judge ruled that there was no "intimidating effect" from the group's behavior, which was headed by extremist preacher Sven Lau, Deutsche Welle reported Nov. 21, 2016.


Certainly seems odd at first sight.

Not sure what it's got to do with Brexit .. ?


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Not sure what it's got to do with Brexit .. ?


I'm not sure either


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 342123


I don't get it?
The Brit's have nothing to escape from. We will still be able to travel to other European countries like we can Australia, America, New Zealand, China, India and anywhere else in the world. Just because we are leaving the EU doesn't stop us travelling to Spain, Germany, France, Netherlands and other European countries and those living in other European countries visiting the UK.


----------



## kimthecat

@stockwellcat Its just a joke .  It's from Have I got news for you . Its rather funny. 
Where did you find that @KittenKong


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat Its just a joke .  It's from Have I got news for you .
> Where did you find that @KittenKong


Oh. Ok.


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> There were myriad reasons people had for voting leave, and you asking for the millionth time is never going to change the fact that none of these answers will ever satisfy you, which is fine, you are very against it, but your constant, aggressive demands are really rather tiresome. Can we agree that you will stop asking the same questions over and over again


Why.. simply fact based reasons shouldn't be too hard to find as reasoning should they. Plenty of evidence provided how the UK will be worse off. Then there are the simple questions leavers avoid answering.



> it should now be a combined effort to make it as successful as possible


The successful as possible is not leaving. Simple as that unless you can show advantages.


----------



## cheekyscrip

MiffyMoo said:


> Well we are, so get over it


That is the one and only thing that Leavers ever say:
"We decided to make you poorer and limit your choices. Get over it."


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat Its just a joke .  It's from Have I got news for you . Its rather funny.
> Where did you find that @KittenKong


Found it on Facebook.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well in answer to what the remainers are hoping for, that is a referendum on the final deal. If a referendum was granted on the final deal all voters would be doing is accepting the deal the EU is offering or sending the UK negotiators back to the negotiating table with the EU (of course this would have to have approval for more time off the EU27) and starting all over again. I am affraid this kind of referendum wouldn't stop Brexit from happening.

Brilliant peice in the Guardian this evening.
*Don't fixate on a second Brexit vote. Focus instead on trade*
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/18/second-brexit-vote-trade-democracy



> *The fact is that Britain is not going to abandon Brexit this year. It is not going to do so because, two years ago, MPs voted 544 to 53 for a referendum, which they pledged to honour. A year ago they voted 498 to 114 to honour that pledge.* Even if some leavers are having buyer's remorse, a YouGov poll last year showed just 14% wanting Brexit stopped. The only clear popular wish is to get on with it - and shut up.
> 
> There are no rules for referendums because they do not feature in any constitutional edict, but convention dictates a second one would be justified only if the circumstances of the first have radically changed. The Danes (in 1993) and the Irish (in 2009) held second referendums, after renegotiations, to stay in the EU. Circumstances do not include second thoughts. There might, just, be an argument for a referendum after a final deal, purely to confirm it. But rejection would just precipitate another ghastly round of talks.


So forwards and onwards to Brexit day we go. The next 9 months are going to be interesting.

The reporter seems to have missed the votes yesterday against the amendments for the single market and customs union in Parliament as the EU Withdrawal Bill passaged through it's final stages in the House of Commons. We won't be staying in either the Customs Union or Single Market.


----------



## MiffyMoo

cheekyscrip said:


> That is the one and only thing that Leavers ever say:
> "We decided to make you poorer and limit your choices. Get over it."


No, I quite specifically said that we should all work together to make it the best we can. The response was to stop it. Sorry but we will never get anywhere if Remainers just keep throwing a tantrum like that. It's no wonder we lose our patience


----------



## MiffyMoo

stockwellcat. said:


> Well in answer to what the remainers are hoping for, that is a referendum on the final deal. If a referendum was granted on the final deal all voters would be doing is accepting the deal the EU is offering or sending the UK negotiators back to the negotiating table with the EU (of course this would have to have approval for more time off the EU27) and starting all over again. I am affraid this kind of referendum wouldn't stop Brexit from happening.
> 
> Brilliant peice in the Guardian this evening.
> *Don't fixate on a second Brexit vote. Focus instead on trade*
> https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/18/second-brexit-vote-trade-democracy
> 
> 
> So forwards and onewards to Brexit day we go. The next 9 months are going to be interesting.
> 
> The reporter seems to have missed the votes yesterday against the amendments for the single market and customs union in Parliament as the EU Withdrawal Bill passaged through it's final stages in the House of Commons. We won't be staying in either the Customs Union or Single Market.


See, even the Graun gets it now


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Brilliant peice in the Guardian this evening.


You are right..


> Of course it's possible to change our minds in a democracy. But we have to be realistic about what can and can't be achieved


And the answer is damage to the UK. So let's be realistic then shall we.

Let's look at the article shall we:


> There are no rules for referendums because they do not feature in any constitutional edict


Actually there are rules for referendums such as they are non-binding. So he cannot even get that right. Once again we can look at what this "comment" is saying. It can be summed up to "We won a vote." Cannot even say why leaving is a good idea can they? What a shock thats is isn't it.

Oh look, a poll which stockwellcat doesn't believe in. Well they cannot even get a recent poll result can they. Wonder why that is.



MiffyMoo said:


> No, I quite specifically said that we should all work together to make it the best we can. The response was to stop it. Sorry but we will never get anywhere if Remainers just keep throwing a tantrum like that. It's no wonder we lose our patience


So simply provide reasons to leave, based on facts, to counter the evidence already provided for staying. Hardly a tantrum when leavers cannot provide anything which stands up to reality is it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> I'm quite happy to repeat myself when you can't justify voting to damage lives.


Well the good news is we are leaving the EU.

I think we will be better off outside of the EU. If you don't understand that, tough, but I am not repeating myself forever for the next 9 to 13 months. Now I don't need to justify myself to you or anyone else.

The referendum is done and dusted, Parliament honoured the referendum result like they said they would and promised to do (MPs voted 544 to 53 for a referendum, which they pledged to honour. A year ago they voted 498 to 114 to honour that pledge) and phase 1 of the exit negotiations are concluded, phase 2 starting shortly.

I think I will put you on ignore and leave you there this time around.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the good news is we are leaving the EU.


Currently.



> I think we will be better off outside of the EU. If you don't understand that, tough, but I am not repeating myself forever for the next 9 to 13 months. Now I don't need to justify myself to you or anyone else.


Back to that. You've posting your reasoning which has been pulled apart by the application of facts and you couldn't even defend your opinion. You ignore the basic questions @Arnie83 posted. Why is that?


----------



## cheekyscrip

MiffyMoo said:


> No, I quite specifically said that we should all work together to make it the best we can. The response was to stop it. Sorry but we will never get anywhere if Remainers just keep throwing a tantrum like that. It's no wonder we lose our patience


And we lose our jobs here and our money, our freedom of movement, so patience is thin on the ground.
Try to be here , on the Rock, I had to leave and change work already as my previous place got so affected by extra taxes from Hammond - Brexit costs!!!


----------



## MiffyMoo

cheekyscrip said:


> And we lose our jobs here and our money, our freedom of movement, so patience is thin on the ground.
> Try to be here , on the Rock, I had to leave and change work already as my previous place got so affected by extra taxes from Hammond - Brexit costs!!!


You do realise that you're still able to move to any other country, as long as you have a job and are able to support yourself? A bit simplified, but that's already how it stands in other EU countries with or without Brexit.

What were these extra taxes, and were they specifically laid out as Brexit costs, or did you decide that?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> . We won't be staying in either the Customs Union or Single Market.


Yes, let's rejoice at the hard borders of the past separating NI from the Republic being restored!



MiffyMoo said:


> No, I quite specifically said that we should all work together to make it the best we can. The response was to stop it. Sorry but we will never get anywhere if Remainers just keep throwing a tantrum like that. It's no wonder we lose our patience


The best we can is not good enough. Brexiteers, at least the ones I know personally expect things to be better, they won't be pleased at, "The best we can" if they end up considerably worse off was not what they voted for.

Why do you blame remainers for the lack of progress when Brexiteers can't decide what Brexit exactly means? It's all very different things to different people.

All remainers are asking for is to call the whole bl**dy thing off!


----------



## KittenKong

Seriously? This has to be a joke!
Thought Brexiteers wanted the Channel Tunnel filled in, not easier access to Europe!


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> Yes, let's rejoice at the hard borders of the past separating NI from the Republic being restored!
> 
> The best we can is not good enough. Brexiteers, at least the ones I know personally expect things to be better, they won't be pleased at, "The best we can" if they end up considerably worse off was not what they voted for.
> 
> Why do you blame remainers for the lack of progress when Brexiteers can't decide what Brexit exactly means? It's all very different things to different people.
> 
> All remainers are asking for is to call the whole bl**dy thing off!


Which isn't going to happen. I just saw this on LinkedIn, written by someone who voted Remain, and thought it said what I am trying to say, but much better


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 342174
> 
> 
> Seriously? This has to be a joke!
> Thought Brexiteers wanted the Channel Tunnel filled in, not easier access to Europe!


Why do we want the tunnel filled in? Are you making things up again? Haven't read the article, but thoroughly confused by the idea of a bridge, and can only assume he has completely forgotten that the tunnel exists. Or maybe he has claustrophobia and doesn't like going underground?


----------



## KittenKong

MiffyMoo said:


> Why do we want the tunnel filled in? Are you making things up again? Haven't read the article, but thoroughly confused by the idea of a bridge, and can only assume he has completely forgotten that the tunnel exists. Or maybe he has claustrophobia and doesn't like going underground?


You're proved my point exactly! Of course not all Brexiteers want the Channel Tunnel filled in yet some believe it should be. Some never liked the idea of it in the first place.

People's expectations of what Brexit actually means to them differs considerably.

I don't think any of them will be completely satisfied if at all.


----------



## KittenKong

MiffyMoo said:


> Which isn't going to happen. I just saw this on LinkedIn, written by someone who voted Remain, and thought it said what I am trying to say, but much better
> 
> View attachment 342186


They're entitled to their opinion. The fact the author voted remain is irrelevant. Theresa May reportedly did!

The thought of this government being able to get a "best possible" deal, especially when many in the same party want a no deal complete isolation from Europe is a joke when they can't agree amongst themselves,(That applies to Corbyn too).

Not forgetting the mess the NHS is now in and the collapse of Carillion how can anyone believe they can be trusted to boil a kettle, let alone run a country cut off from the rest of the world except the beloved United States with Trump at the helm?

Typical, blame everyone but themselves.


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Which isn't going to happen. I just saw this on LinkedIn, written by someone who voted Remain, and thought it said what I am trying to say, but much better


Which could be directed at people like Gove and Johnson and hard brexiteers.



Satori said:


> There you go @Goblin


That is not a reason to leave. That's a reason why we need to persuade the government to look at the country and it's future first. As for loaded questions.. well a question such as "what are the advantages to leaving" is only loaded when you cannot answer using facts and basing it on reality.


----------



## KittenKong

You tell them Monsieur Président!

















http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-claims-shorter-humane-approach-a8166951.html


----------



## Satori

Goblin said:


> That is not a reason to leave.


It is to some people and not to others. Has somebody died and made you God of brexit reasoning? Or is the only valid reason to leave that Goblin agrees with one.



Goblin said:


> well a question such as "what are the advantages to leaving" is only loaded when you cannot answer using facts and basing it on reality.


Not loaded that part, no. But certainly unintelligible. You would need to define precisely "advantages" and also specify 'to whom' and 'when'. As for "answer using facts and basing it in reality": Firstly that has no unambiguous English language meaning and secondly it precludes the majority of valid reasons for wishing to leave. Thirdly facts and reality are known only with hindsight.

So you ask a meaningless questIon and then demand terms and conditions of your interlocutor that preclude an answer, which anyway would be met with infantile derision should they so choose to waste their time.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> You're proved my point exactly! Of course not all Brexiteers want the Channel Tunnel filled in yet some believe it should be. Some never liked the idea of it in the first place.
> 
> People's expectations of what Brexit actually means to them differs considerably.
> 
> I don't think any of them will be completely satisfied if at all.


 What people want the tunnel filled in? Ive not seen anyone saying that .
I don't think everyone would be completely satisfied , the same as not every remainer is satisfied with the EU .



KittenKong said:


> Not forgetting the mess the NHS is now in and the collapse of Carillion how can anyone believe they can be trusted to boil a kettle, let alone run a country cut off from the rest of the world except the beloved United States with Trump at the helm?
> .


I didnt vote for this government but to be fair, the NHS has nearly always been in crisis and in a mess etc . I can quote you some cases from the 80s where my family have suffered from their mistakes and lack of care. 
Also, it was on the news last night that Tony Blair and his sidekick Brown pushed and encouraged PFI so no one party is to blame.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> I didnt vote for this government but to be fair, the NHS has nearly always been in crisis and in a mess etc . I can quote you some cases from the 80s where my family have suffered from their mistakes and lack of care.
> Also, it was on the news last night that Tony Blair and his sidekick Brown pushed and encouraged PFI so no one party is to blame.


The NHS has always had problems, and there will always be mistakes and less competent members of staff. That is the same for any organisation. But (and I say this with insider knowledge on several levels) what is currently going on is something else entirely. Understaffing and underfunding are pushing many areas to the point where problems are inevitable rather than avoidable. The more cynical of us note that many of the areas being most affected in this manner are ones which would be most profitable to private healthcare providers...

Spot on about PFI. Then again, Blair and Co. seemed to be on a mission to out-Tory the Tories sometimes!


----------



## Arnie83

There are quite a number of reports already that the vote to leave the EU has had effects which see the country already worse off than it would have been had the vote gone the other way. 

Anyone have a view on that?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I didnt vote for this government but to be fair, the NHS has nearly always been in crisis and in a mess etc . I can quote you some cases from the 80s where my family have suffered from their mistakes and lack of care.
> Also, it was on the news last night that Tony Blair and his sidekick Brown pushed and encouraged PFI so no one party is to blame.


That's true about PFI. At least todays Labour have been honest about this and recognise it being a mistake.

The '80s was under Margaret Thatcher, Labour can't possibly be blamed for that!

Those (not yourself) who continue to hold Labour responsible for the state of the NHS should be asking themselves the Tories have had 8 years to put it right and why did they continue the PFI programme when that's getting the blame?

As for the Channel Tunnel I remember some voicing their opposition to it, believing it would result in a closer integration with Europe when it was first considered and on opening.

Still, anything Boris Johnson comes up with should be taken with a pinch of salt. Many of his ideas when Mayor came to nothing. He's nothing more than a "Get me on the front page" publicly seeking type no better than Farage.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> You're proved my point exactly! Of course not all Brexiteers want the Channel Tunnel filled in yet some believe it should be. Some never liked the idea of it in the first place.
> 
> People's expectations of what Brexit actually means to them differs considerably.
> 
> I don't think any of them will be completely satisfied if at all.


You do know some odd people. Everyone I know who voted for Brexit wants nothing of the sort. It sounds like a totally made up 'fact' frankly, as it completely ignores the fact that ferries and planes still exist.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> They're entitled to their opinion. The fact the author voted remain is irrelevant. Theresa May reportedly did!
> 
> The thought of this government being able to off a good deal, especially when many in the same party want a no deal complete isolation from Europe is a joke when they can't agree amongst themselves,(That applies to Corbyn too).
> 
> Not forgetting the mess the NHS is now in and the collapse of Carillion how can anyone believe they can be trusted to boil a kettle, let alone run a country cut off from the rest of the world except the beloved United States with Trump at the helm?
> 
> Typical, blame everyone but themselves.


Since when are they blaming everyone but themselves? May definitely is a remainer, but at least she has stepped up to the plate and is doing what the majority of those who voted want. She may be doing a disservice, but at least she is doing something. There's no point saying anything about Corbyn as he made it perfectly clear that his agenda was to undermine the government, rather than what is good for the country.

I think that Carillion's problems aren't just down to the Tories. They have been awarded contracts for years now, which they certainly shouldn't, but the most recent contract they were awarded was from Leeds Council (Labour). I'm certainly not excusing the Tories, but I'm also not pinning all the problems just on them.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Which could be directed at people like Gove and Johnson and hard brexiteers


Indeed. I've always thought that hardliners on anything are always troublesome. It only ever leads to shouty crackers arguments and not much else


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> Also, it was on the news last night that Tony Blair and his sidekick Brown pushed and encouraged PFI so no one party is to blame


Andy Burnham signed off on 221 PFI contracts and he was only health secretary for one year!


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> The '80s was under Margaret Thatcher, Labour can't possibly be blamed for that!
> As for the Channel Tunnel I remember some voicing their opposition to it, believing it would result in a closer integration with Europe when it was first considered and on opening.
> Still, anything Boris Johnson comes up with should be taken with a pinch of salt. Many of his ideas when Mayor came to nothing. He's nothing more than a "Get me on the front page" publicly seeking type no better than Farage.


I believe people voiced concern at the time it was planned but I really don't think it was because they didn't want closer integration 
It was mainly about security and one point was the risk of foxes getting through , rabies was rife in France and spreading at the time.
Are there still many people saying they want it filled in nowadays ?

Im not blaming labour for 80s NHS , Im saying the NHS has had many crisises (spelling) over the years not just this one .


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> There were myriad reasons people had for voting leave, and you asking for the millionth time is never going to change the fact that none of these answers will ever satisfy you, which is fine, you are very against it, but your constant, aggressive demands are really rather tiresome. Can we agree that you will stop asking the same questions over and over again, and maybe we can try and move on with the conversation? We still have another 14 months to go, and I'm not sure how many people will be able to bear you constantly going around in circles.
> 
> Re them vs us, I'm not sure you can pin this purely on the leavers, I think both sides are as culpable as each other. I doubt we'll ever manage to work together, more's the pity, but the fact is that we're leaving and it should now be a combined effort to make it as successful as possible, not try and tear it down so that certain hardliners can point and yell "I told you so".


Yes there were a myriad of reasons - most of which were debunked as lies. Many blamed the EU for wrecking our fishing industry, allowing in millions of migrants to decimate housing stocks, burden the NHS and pay out millions in benefits. They believed we'd lost control of our borders and our sovereignty was lost to Brussels. Some voted leave to rid of us EU regulations & red tape. Patriotism. Nationalism.

How are both sides culpable when remainers have looked at the evidence & tried to warn leavers of the looming disaster? Brexit is already a train wreck. I'll know I did my best to raise awareness when the disaster capitalists swoop in to ravage this country 



MiffyMoo said:


> No, I quite specifically said that we should all work together to make it the best we can. The response was to stop it. Sorry but we will never get anywhere if Remainers just keep throwing a tantrum like that. It's no wonder we lose our patience


Make it the best we can?  Now even you sound negative. Why carry on cheerleading this shambles right over the cliff? I don't get it. There's no shame in changing your mind.



MiffyMoo said:


> Try and keep up with the thread; you can quite clearly see my post prior to that.


I saw it 
This >

Remainers on social media: Charts, graphs, statistics, evidence and facts.
Brexiters on social media: _"We won, you lost. Get over it."
_



kimthecat said:


> What people want the tunnel filled in? Ive not seen anyone saying that .
> I don't think everyone would be completely satisfied , the same as not every remainer is satisfied with the EU .
> 
> I didnt vote for this government but to be fair, the NHS has nearly always been in crisis and in a mess etc . I can quote you some cases from the 80s where my family have suffered from their mistakes and lack of care.
> Also, it was on the news last night that Tony Blair and his sidekick Brown pushed and encouraged PFI so no one party is to blame.


The NHS is facing the greatest crisis it has ever faced - a deliberate, manufactured crisis created by the tories. They are fully privatising & Americanising our health service. Yes new labour should never have adopted neoliberalism & rolled out PFIs but the tories have been in power for *7 years *Kim! by consistently deflecting the blame elsewhere you are playing right into the governments hands -


noushka05 said:


> Why what have you done? :Bag
> 
> Yes you lot who are playing right into this governments hands.
> 
> View attachment 299884


Why not see what all those experts are saying? Deflecting the blame wont save our NHS. New labour adopted neoliberalism, Labour under Corbyn has finally rejected it. (Jeremy Corbyn voted against his party, consistently voting against PFIs.

*GeorgeMonbiot*‏@*GeorgeMonbiot* Jan 18 

_Others who tried desperately to alert the press and parliament to what #*PFI* 
was doing include

@*AllysonPollock* 
Jean Shaoul
Colin Leys
@*jeremycorbyn* 
Declan Gaffney
Paul Foot
Richard Brooks 
(Please add to this list) We were all ignored, ridiculed or maligned_. )

*Dr Lauren Gavaghan #NHSLove*‏Verified [email protected]*DancingTheMind* 2h2 hours ago

This doesn't seem to match the #*Conservative* "There's no #*NHScrisis* " narrative.
Aside from that of years of purposeful underfunding of our NHS.

Note how something happens in each graph around 2010.

You're welcome.









.





































*Lauren Gavaghan #NHSLove*‏Verified [email protected]*DancingTheMind* 1h1 hour ago

*Staff/*

*- 10,000 Drs short (highest number ever)*

*- 40,000* nurses down - 33,000 nurses left in last year*

*- more nurses leaving than joining (for first time)*

*- 100,000*** roles vacant in NHS (nearly 1 in 10)*

*This = UNSAFE.*

*This could have been prevented.*

*Conservatives.*


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> How are both sides culpable when remainers have looked at the evidence & tried to warn leavers of the looming disaster?


I was specifically referring to them vs. us. Please don't continue the line of we're so perfect, given the amount of abuse given to leavers. ANd I'm not saying it didn't go for both sides; it did, but you're making out that remainers are all wearing haloes - you're not.



noushka05 said:


> Now even you sound negative


Please don't make assumptions, I'm not negative, except about the level of negativity. As I subsequently posted, it's very difficult to get a job done when there is so much bile aimed at the government.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> I was specifically referring to them vs. us. Please don't continue the line of we're so perfect, given the amount of abuse given to leavers. ANd I'm not saying it didn't go for both sides; it did, but you're making out that remainers are all wearing haloes - you're not.
> 
> Please don't make assumptions, I'm not negative, except about the level of negativity. As I subsequently posted, it's very difficult to get a job done when there is so much bile aimed at the government.


I've never made out remainers are all wearing haloes :Hilarious I said unlike brexiters, we have actually provided real evidence to show brexit is going to be a disaster. I have yet to see a brexiter name me one tangible benefit for leaving? Maybe you can?

Have you considered that there are very valid reasons there's a lot of bile directed at the government? If you cant see they are a complete & utter shambles then you need to remove your rose coloured specs:Watching

They triggered Article 50 but had NO plan. They didn't bother doing impact assessments. They don't give a toss about the future of millions of people, our environment - nothing - only profit.

Maybe you know the answers to these?


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> They triggered Article 50


I think you'll find that, as @stockwellcat previously posted, the vote was 461- 89, so that means that your beloved Labour joined in on triggering A50.



noushka05 said:


> Have you considered that there are very valid reasons there's a lot of bile directed at the government? If you cant see they are a complete & utter shambles then you need to remove your rose coloured specs


Sigh, you're not reading my answers again; I don't have rose tinted spectacles and am quite critical of the Government, but they have a job to do and, whilst they're not exactly knocking out of the park, they're trying. And responses like that is what makes it so unappealing for people to speak to you about this. You have absolutely no desire to talk, you just want to shove your views down people's throats with your 20 page long diatribes.


----------



## Jesthar

MiffyMoo said:


> Please don't make assumptions, I'm not negative, except about the level of negativity. As I subsequently posted, it's very difficult to get a job done* when there is so much bile aimed at the government*.


*looks back over history* No change there, then! This is politics - if there had been no referendum and therefore no Brexit process, people would still be finding plenty to complain about and with just as much passion. A government complaining about criticism is akin to a boxer complaining about getting hit 

It would also be counterproductive to bulk-classify concerns about Brexit as negativity - yes, not all Brexiteers do this, far from it, but there is no denying there is still a strong espression (varying from subtle to subtle-as-a-sledgehammer) of the 'Remoaners' theme from many quarters. Having enthusiasm for your cause, a can-do attitude and hard graft work ethic is great (ad a quility many Remainers possess), but will only get you so far if the playing field on which you find yourself moved to places you at a disadvantage.

For example, I have a small craft business. I buy in the UK (and UK made) as much as I can, but there are certain things (one critical material in particular) I have simply not been able to find in the UK. Now, currently I can buy it at a reasonable price from an EU country and have it arrive within a few working days. However, if the extreme Brexiteers ever managed to turn their wet dream of a hard 'middle finger salute to the EU no deal' Brexit into a reality, that could easily mean a large price increase, import duties, and waiting several weeks for a shipment to clear customs.

Granted, it's not the end of the world for me as my business is a hobby, not my main source of income, but for many a small business it could be disasterous. I'm sure there are a minority of hardliners who would say that any business which can't adapt doesn't deserve to survive, but I would strongly suspect they are not among those who feel they are currently being herded onto a political rug which could be pulled from under them through no fault of their own.

That's only one very small example, of course - though if anyone knows anyone who can genuinely justify how the potential outcome of increased costs and lead times would be an advantage to me and others, I'd be interested to hear it.


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> I think you'll find that, as @stockwellcat previously posted, the vote was 461- 89, so that means that your beloved Labour joined in on triggering A50.
> 
> Sigh, you're not reading my answers again; I don't have rose tinted spectacles and am quite critical of the Government, but they have a job to do and, whilst they're not exactly knocking out of the park, they're trying. And responses like that is what makes it so unappealing for people to speak to you about this. You have absolutely no desire to talk, you just want to shove your views down people's throats with your 20 page long diatribes.


My beloved labour will likely pay heavily for aiding the tories right wing power grab - most labour voters support remain (though not in most labour strong holds like mine) Tough decision for labour. Damned whatever they did.

Not as critical as you are of the other parties despite the tories bringing this county to its knees  They're clearly not trying. They are a corrupt to the core. Cosying up to Trump & other despots for trade deals - you really think we'll be better off under the thumb of corporate America?

. We will all pay the price for the tories lies & deception. For all its faults the EU protected us from the worst of disaster capitalism, from our own government. One day the scales will fall from leavers eyes & many will look back at our time in the EU with longing. 
.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> Not as critical as you are of the other parties despite the tories bringing this county to its knees


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious You saying that is the funniest thing ever, especially as you then go on to talk complete rubbish. Yes, I am Tory, but I'm also more than happy to say when I'm unhappy with their actions, or to applaud one of the other parties if they do something positive.

Given this is in your profile, one would hope you would actually heed it:
*"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." Socrates.*


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious You saying that is the funniest thing ever, especially as you then go on to talk complete rubbish. Yes, I am Tory, but I'm also more than happy to say when I'm unhappy with their actions, or to applaud one of the other parties if they do something positive.
> 
> Given this is in your profile, one would hope you would actually heed it:
> *"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." Socrates.*


I do try

I'm fascinated to know what you're actually happy with?  Surely not the badger cull? or the tories voting against transferring into UK law EU obligation to pay regard to animal sentience? Homelessness crisis? Police crisis? NHS crisis? Prison crisis? Fire service crisis Fracking? Attacking the poor & disabled?

Their latest scandal?

This is corruption at the heart of government. The tories & their mates are bleeding this county dry - not the EU, immigrants & benefit scroungers!

_Carillion blacklisted trade unionists, ran up £600m pension deficit while protecting execs' bonuses, 
Tories gave party donor boss billion-pound contracts while firm in meltdown, now demanding a state bailout. 
Yet welfare claimants demonised as scroungers.
What a bizarre country
_
It isn't slanderous to point out you regularly distract from this governments abysmal record  Its not like I cant provide plenty of evidence you do it:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

@MiffyMoo I can't see who you are talking to but I can take a guess! 
I used to vote LIb Dem and last time the Greens but wouldn't know who to vote for at the next election .


----------



## noushka05

*James O'Brien*‏Verified [email protected]*mrjamesob*  6h6 hours ago

_Brexit latest: Emmanuel Macron has reiterated that the UK would have to abide by European legal jurisdiction
& contribute to the Brussels budget if the City of London is to be covered by a deal. 
But we're all going to ignore this because Boris said something daft about a bridge
_

.
*James O'Brien*‏Verified [email protected]*mrjamesob*  7h7 hours ago

What's not to like? The last bridge he backed only cost the public £46 million
without a single brick being laid.


----------



## noushka05

*James O'Brien*‏Verified [email protected]*mrjamesob*  Jan 18

First anniversary of this today. In many professions, such rank incompetence would be penalised, possibly even career-ending. 
The man who wrote this is now the Downing Street Press Secretary. 
You're unlikely to encounter anything more emblematic of the national pageant today.


----------



## MiffyMoo

noushka05 said:


> I do try
> 
> I'm fascinated to know what you're actually happy with?  Surely not the badger cull? or the tories voting against transferring into UK law EU obligation to pay regard to animal sentience? Homelessness crisis? Police crisis? NHS crisis? Prison crisis? Fire service crisis Fracking? Attacking the poor & disabled?
> 
> Their latest scandal?
> 
> This is corruption at the heart of government. The tories & their mates are bleeding this county dry - not the EU, immigrants & benefit scroungers!
> 
> _Carillion blacklisted trade unionists, ran up £600m pension deficit while protecting execs' bonuses,
> Tories gave party donor boss billion-pound contracts while firm in meltdown, now demanding a state bailout.
> Yet welfare claimants demonised as scroungers.
> What a bizarre country
> _
> It isn't slanderous to point out you regularly distract from this governments abysmal record  Its not like I cant provide plenty of evidence you do it:Hilarious


Only one of those things is to do with Brexit, and I'm absolutely convinced that we have already discussed animal sentience. The fact that our animal sentience proposals go further than the EU law makes me perfectly happy, thank you.

I can't be bothered repeating myself on Carillion, so scroll up, if you're really interested.


----------



## MiffyMoo

kimthecat said:


> @MiffyMoo I can't see who you are talking to but I can take a guess!
> I used to vote LIb Dem and last time the Greens but wouldn't know who to vote for at the next election .


I'm in the same boat - it really is down to who is the best of the worst! That's the decision that the US had, and look how well that's working out


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> *James O'Brien*‏Verified [email protected]*mrjamesob*  Jan 18
> 
> First anniversary of this today. In many professions, such rank incompetence would be penalised, possibly even career-ending.
> The man who wrote this is now the Downing Street Press Secretary.
> You're unlikely to encounter anything more emblematic of the national pageant today.


Have you seen my post #1117 Noushka?


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

MiffyMoo said:


> I think you'll find that, as @stockwellcat previously posted, the vote was 461- 89, so that means that your beloved Labour joined in on triggering A50.


They did, Jermey got his whip out. I mean there was a 3 line whip if I remember rightly.


----------



## kimthecat

Honestly, what could possibly go wrong #*BorisBridge*


----------



## MiffyMoo

stockwellcat. said:


> They did, Jermey got his whip out. I mean there was a 3 line whip if I remember rightly.


Ugh, your first sentence had an unbidden image of Diane and Jeremy pop into my head. I feel a tad ill


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> They did, Jermey got his whip out. .




I like the spelling of his name . It sounds like Germy .


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Are there still many people saying they want it filled in nowadays ?


I can't think of anyone who does.


----------



## KittenKong

This from the Unite union.
Is it any wonder why the far right Tories want out of the EU?

What I fail to understand is Corbyn appearing to support May's hard Brexit stance with all this in jeopardy.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> This from the Unite union.
> Is it any wonder why the far right Tories want out of the EU?
> 
> What I fail to understand is Corbyn appearing to support May's hard Brexit stance with all this in jeopardy.
> View attachment 342305


Good to see Unite admit that they're redundant.

I haven't checked all the points, but no. 10 is disingenuous - if locals in whichever country you're in have to pay, then so do you


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> What I fail to understand is Corbyn appearing to support May's hard Brexit stance with all this in jeopardy.


Because he is honouring what Parliament voted to do and that was to keep there promise to honour the result of the referendum. Remember the factual figures I presented on the other page of this thread. There's nothing to oppose as the Parliamentarians voted through the referendum saying they would honour the result and act upon it so they are doing the decent thing by doing what they promised.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> There's nothing to oppose as the Parliamentarians voted through the referendum saying they would honour the result


No, they voted to make the referendum non-binding. There's a reason they had to use whips to get them to vote to uphold the referendum result. To respect the referendum result (what was promised) however wouldn't have required leaving. Most of the issues highlighted and reasons for voting for leave could have been solved anyway as they are nothing to do with the EU.

Parliament has a duty to protect the country, a duty they are failing at miserably. They also have a duty to listen to the population, a duty they are failing at now aswell.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> They also have a duty to listen to the population, a duty they are failing at now aswell.


Oh, was there another referendum that I missed?


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh, was there another referendum that I missed?


Shocked you need me to repeat as people complain I've said it before. You can look at the majority of polls etc. After all, that is all the referendum was at the end of the day. Non-binding referendum to GUIDE the government, not set the country on a path to damaging itself.



Elles said:


> So without the Eu, we'd all be working a minimum 70 hour week with no holidays, in conditions that would make a Victorian workhouse seem like luxury, if we survived the noxious chemicals we were breathing? Why not do away with our government bodies altogether? We can't manage without the Eu, we're all doomed.


So who are you quoting someone or are you just simply trying to exaggerate the reality that people will not be as well off and they will not have the baseline protection the EU provides. Amazingly the governments EU countries can actually do more than that base requirement if they want. After all we have always retained our sovereignty. As for working hours.. here's Ian Duncan Smith:





This a person who stated workers rights will need to be "flexible" in another interview. Then you have had Jacob Rees-Mogg who has stated he doesn't agree with workers rights. So tell me what is the government's position on rights for workers especially when they are doing their utmost to bypass parliament whenever possible?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> So without the Eu, we'd all be working a minimum 70 hour week with no holidays, in conditions that would make a Victorian workhouse seem like luxury, if we survived the noxious chemicals we were breathing? Why not do away with our government bodies altogether? We can't manage without the Eu, we're all doomed.


I wouldn't put anything past this government. I remember how the Tories objected to the minimum wage when Labour proposed that in 1997 which says it all.

Workers' rights protection is one of the many benefits of EU membership. Of course all this could be transferred to UK law if the government choose to. Corbyn has called for the government to do this for example.

Yes, I can visualise people working a 70 hour week with very little holidays if they're lucky. They won't be the EU to keep them in line anymore.


----------



## KittenKong

US Government in shutdown forcing many into an unpaid leave of absence. These are people with bills to pay and are unpaid through no fault of their own.

Do we really want to see this sort of thing happen in the UK?

It shouldn't happen anywhere.


----------



## Arnie83

At risk of sounding like a clever dick (no comments required, thank you) this is what I predicted a few pages back.

*Majority of Britons think UK is right to leave the European Union for first time in six months*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ink-uk-right-leave-european-union-first-time/

Since the phase 1 negotiations were 'concluded' and have been heroically spun as a 'triumph' for May, people who don't follow Brexit very carefully think we're on track and nothing bad has happened so let's get on with it.

I also predicted that the polls would swing back towards 'wrong to leave' when phase 2 starts going wrong, and when phase 1 starts to unravel. I.e. the Ireland border issue which is nowhere near resolved and the government have only made worse by their contradictory red lines and promises.

If we're faced with a choice between a near-Norway option and trading on WTO terms with the c. 90 countries with which we have free trade deals through the EU, with the pound taking a beating and GDP growth slowing further, then people will change their minds.

Whether the right wing Tories allow people to change their minds is another matter. 'Democracy' has, for them, already served its purpose.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Goblin said:


> Shocked you need me to repeat as people complain I've said it before. You can look at the majority of polls etc. After all, that is all the referendum was at the end of the day. Non-binding referendum to GUIDE the government, not set the country on a path to damaging itself.
> 
> So who are you quoting someone or are you just simply trying to exaggerate the reality that people will not be as well off and they will not have the baseline protection the EU provides. Amazingly the governments EU countries can actually do more than that base requirement if they want. After all we have always retained our sovereignty. As for working hours.. here's Ian Duncan Smith:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This a person who stated workers rights will need to be "flexible" in another interview. Then you have had Jacob Rees-Mogg who has stated he doesn't agree with workers rights. So tell me what is the government's position on rights for workers especially when they are doing their utmost to bypass parliament whenever possible?


The referendum showed what we wanted and that's what they're doing. We've also discussed polls, ad infinitum, but if you insist on using them, then you need to know that the latest YouGov poll shows a majority still wish to leave


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> US Government in shutdown forcing many into an unpaid leave of absence. These are people with bills to pay and are unpaid through no fault of their own.
> 
> Do we really want to see this sort of thing happen in the UK?
> 
> It shouldn't happen anywhere.


You really are scaremongering aren't you? Explain exactly how you think this could happen in the UK?

Since 1976 the US has had 18 Government shutdowns ..... events almost unique to the US ....

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...ment-shutdown-history-clinton-obama-explained

And the reasons why Government shutdowns simply don't happen in other countries!

http://theweek.com/articles/459377/why-other-countries-dont-shut-down-governments


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> The referendum showed what we wanted and that's what they're doing. We've also discussed polls, ad infinitum, but if you insist on using them, then you need to know that the latest YouGov poll shows a majority still wish to leave


Not '*still* wish to leave' but '*once again* wish to leave'. The polls have been fluctuating, as per the article I linked to in the post preceding yours, which was based on the poll you mention. It's not as though Leave has maintained a steady lead since the first Referendum.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> US Government in shutdown forcing many into an unpaid leave of absence. These are people with bills to pay and are unpaid through no fault of their own.
> 
> Do we really want to see this sort of thing happen in the UK?
> 
> It shouldn't happen anywhere.


Erm, when has our parliament ever shut down?


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> Whether the right wing Tories allow people to change their minds is another matter. 'Democracy' has, for them, already served its purpose.


This is unworthy of you. I would expect it from some of the others, but to suggest that the Tories would disregard a democratic vote is laughable - is it not exactly what you are fighting against right now? There seems to be a huge amount of confusion for you guys, given everyone agrees that May is a Remainer, so surely it's her respect for democracy that has ensured she pushes this along, rather than disregards it


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> Not '*still* wish to leave' but '*once again* wish to leave'. The polls have been fluctuating, as per the article I linked to in the post preceding yours, which was based on the poll you mention. It's not as though Leave has maintained a steady lead since the first Referendum.


And have we not all agreed that the polls really mean very little, especially when a) they do fluctuate so much; and b) the margin is so fine.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> You really are scaremongering aren't you? Explain exactly how you think this could happen in the UK?
> 
> Since 1976 the US has had 18 Government shutdowns ..... events almost unique to the US ....
> 
> https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...ment-shutdown-history-clinton-obama-explained
> 
> And the reasons why Government shutdowns simply don't happen in other countries!
> 
> http://theweek.com/articles/459377/why-other-countries-dont-shut-down-governments


If the government do away with employee rights, a strong possibility post Brexit and turn the country in to a low wage "competitive" economy I believe something like this could well happen. Many have argued post Brexit the UK will have to compete with the likes of China if it's going to go anywhere. We all know what that means.

It's bad enough already with staff being laid off in some industries, notably what happened in Redcar a few years back, not forgetting BHS and more recently Carillion amongst others.

And don't get me started on volunteers replacing paid staff, (I know you didn't bring this up but it was on my mind), an excellent loophole to prevent paying the minimum wage by paying no wage at all! Thatcher tried something similar with "Employment Training" where firms took on staff at the Taxpayers' expense, ie for their dole money plus £10!

One possible post Brexit advantage I thought might happen would be a huge increase in border and customs jobs that will be required. Yes the government have addressed this but want volunteers to subsidise existing paid staff.

I sometimes think MP's should try living on fresh air. It's not easy.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> If the government do away with employee rights, a strong possibility post Brexit and turn the country in to a low wage "competitive" economy I believe something like this could well happen. Many have argued post Brexit the UK will have to compete with the likes of China if it's going to go anywhere. We all know what that means.
> 
> It's bad enough already with staff being laid off in some industries, notably what happened in Redcar a few years back, not forgetting BHS amongst others.


Sorry, but what on Earth has Redcar and BHS to do with Brexit?


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> This is unworthy of you. I would expect it from some of the others, but to suggest that the Tories would disregard a democratic vote is laughable - is it not exactly what you are fighting against right now? There seems to be a huge amount of confusion for you guys, given everyone agrees that May is a Remainer, so surely it's her respect for democracy that has ensured she pushes this along, rather than disregards it


Democracy is not a simple Yes/No question when people don't know what the question means. Isn't it interesting how when people begin to have an idea of what it means, polls show they do not want to leave.



MiffyMoo said:


> And have we not all agreed that the polls really mean very little, especially when a) they do fluctuate so much; and b) the margin is so fine.


And that is all the referendum was, an opinion poll. To be any more, people would need accurate information to base their decision on.


----------



## KittenKong

MiffyMoo said:


> Sorry, but what on Earth has Redcar and BHS to do with Brexit?


To answer your question perhaps the collapse of BHS and Redcar wasn't anything to do with Brexit.

The rise of a far right Tory government indistinguishable from UKIP is the result of the Brexit vote. They're looking to Trump and the US for inspiration.

They called that project fear, it's project fact big style.


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> This is unworthy of you. I would expect it from some of the others, but to suggest that the Tories would disregard a democratic vote is laughable - is it not exactly what you are fighting against right now? There seems to be a huge amount of confusion for you guys, given everyone agrees that May is a Remainer, so surely it's her respect for democracy that has ensured she pushes this along, rather than disregards it


I'm not suggesting what you suggest I'm suggesting 

The Brexiteer Tories who have control of May's government will hide behind the 'democracy' of June 2016 whatever the polls are saying because their prize is leaving at all costs.

They won't disregard a democratic vote because they won't risk a democratic vote. That's what I meant by it having served its purpose.

I believe - as I've said lots of times - that we should at least have a vote on the final deal to see if the People want what has been negotiated when the time comes.


----------



## MiffyMoo

KittenKong said:


> If you want to start insulting people perhaps I should call you a Little Englander but I won't.
> 
> I don't go on forums to personally insult people, nor would I intentionally insult others with a different point of view to myself.
> 
> Still, to answer your question perhaps the collapse of BHS and Redcar wasn't anything to do with Brexit.
> 
> The rise of a far right Tory government indistinguishable from UKIP is the result of the Brexit vote. They're looking to Trump and the US for inspiration.
> 
> They called that project fear, it's project fact big style.


Please explain how the Government has anything to do with the downfall of BHS


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> I'm not suggesting what you suggest I'm suggesting
> 
> The Brexiteer Tories who have control of May's government will hide behind the 'democracy' of June 2016 whatever the polls are saying because their prize is leaving at all costs.
> 
> They won't disregard a democratic vote because they won't risk a democratic vote. That's what I meant by it having served its purpose.
> 
> I believe - as I've said lots of times - that we should at least have a vote on the final deal to see if the People want what has been negotiated when the time comes.


And what do you do if Brexit still wins, but the usual people then complain that they didn't understand and "it's not fair". Do you then push for another referendum?

If you want another, then go for it, but I'm not convinced that Remainers will put up and shut up if the 'opinion poll' is wrong again (in their eyes)


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> And have we not all agreed that the polls really mean very little, especially when a) they do fluctuate so much; and b) the margin is so fine.


Well, not all of us have agreed that, no. I think polls are indicative, especially of trends, and have a margin of error that must be taken into account before tentative conclusions can be drawn, and with caveats.

I would never advocate irrevocable action being taken on the basis of polls, but if they introduce doubts as to the changing views of the People, then I think ignoring them would be a dereliction of, let's say, due diligence before a massive leap was taken.

Specific to Brexit, I wouldn't apply the same logic after we've left, but if the polls were suggesting something before we leave, then yes I'd check. This is the most important and far-reaching change of the last 50 years, and we should be very sure indeed that it is what people want before finally going ahead with it. I honestly think the only ones who would disagree with that are those who already have the answer they want and don't want to risk it.


----------



## MiffyMoo

Arnie83 said:


> Well, not all of us have agreed that, no. I think polls are indicative, especially of trends, and have a margin of error that must be taken into account before tentative conclusions can be drawn, and with caveats.
> 
> I would never advocate irrevocable action being taken on the basis of polls, but if they introduce doubts as to the changing views of the People, then I think ignoring them would be a dereliction of, let's say, due diligence before a massive leap was taken.
> 
> Specific to Brexit, I wouldn't apply the same logic after we've left, but if the polls were suggesting something before we leave, then yes I'd check. This is the most important and far-reaching change of the last 50 years, and we should be very sure indeed that it is what people want before finally going ahead with it. I honestly think the only ones who would disagree with that are those who already have the answer they want and don't want to risk it.


Well I already said to crack on with another referendum.


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> And what do you do if Brexit still wins, but the usual people then complain that they didn't understand and "it's not fair". Do you then push for another referendum?
> 
> If you want another, then go for it, but I'm not convinced that Remainers will put up and shut up if the 'opinion poll' is wrong again (in their eyes)


I think my post after yours answers that. Once we've left, we've left. But before we take that leap, we ought to be very sure that it is really what people want.

If the result is that we leave, then I would start advocating that we rejoin. Why wouldn't I? But I certainly wouldn't be calling for a further referendum on the matter. In my opinion they are only democratic when the public have the facts rather than competing half-truths, outright lies, convenient exaggerations, meaningless soundbites, and personality politics.


----------



## Arnie83

MiffyMoo said:


> Well I already said to crack on with another referendum.


Not yet. We don't know the facts. When phase 2 of the negotiations comes up with the actual options, then yes.

Only 8 months more of this, and we'll be there!


----------



## cheekyscrip

MiffyMoo said:


> You do realise that you're still able to move to any other country, as long as you have a job and are able to support yourself? A bit simplified, but that's already how it stands in other EU countries with or without Brexit.
> 
> What were these extra taxes, and were they specifically laid out as Brexit costs, or did you decide that?


Not me, Hammond!!!Basically making it more difficult to leave your money to your family etc.. after you die instead of paying 55percent to taxman. Funny, but people are so unpatriotic and want to leave their savings to their spouses and kids... especially non British spouses are in bad position.

There is a country where referendum is decisive, but only if two thirds or more of entitled to voted exercise that right ( so the issue is important enough to bother) and two third or moreof those who voted must decide one way or another, else matters are settled by MPs vote.
So if " The Will of People " is clear - no country split in halves! Then it is carried on.
The safeguards of referendum are the most important to make that work.
Not mention people need to know what they are actually voting for - not 350 mln for NHS apparently.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Not me, Hammond!!!Basically making it more difficult to leave your money to your family etc.. after you die instead of paying 55percent to taxman. Funny, but people are so unpatriotic and want to leave their savings to their spouses and kids... especially non British spouses are in bad position.
> 
> I'm not sure where you got the 55% from. As far as I understand UK Inheritance tax at present stands at 40%.
> 
> https://www.express.co.uk/finance/p...amilies-hit-by-death-duty-but-there-s-a-catch
> 
> .


----------



## Goblin

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh. My. God! You cannot keep banging on like this. Seriously! It may have been an opinion poll, but it was one that MPs voted to stand by.


An opinion poll where people do not even know what they voted for. Says so much.



> If remain had won but the government pushed ahead with Brexit, you would be in a huge frith (actually not much change there).


You are right. Leavers would be just the same. Even Farage stated it wouldn't be over with a close vote. The first petition for a 2nd referendum was started by a leave supporter when they thought they would lose. That is part of democracy. Just as it's inconvenient doesn't mean you tell people to shut up. It's funny how annoyed you get that people don't agree with you yet cannot explain advantages to leaving and damaging people's lives.



> You simply can't expect the government to change their minds every time the shouty minority get even shoutier.


Sums out leavers that shouty minority doesn't it. Especially when they cannot even show any advantages to leaving which stand up to reality.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Depending what is taxed , but even 40 is a rip off of widows and orphans!!!
If people who do not live in U.K., neither their family and want their pensions/ savings out paying the local rate I understand it perfectly well. Now they have to pay extra 25percent tax if they are domiciled in Britain, it is complicated, but basically stops you from using your savings/ pension as you, selfish would want to!!!
Pensioners will finance Brexit, as difficult to take it away from youth or families.
Middle class pensioners mostly, the rich will find their way, the state pension takers cannot give much.

Well, many pensioners voted for Brexit, but I feel for those who did not!


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Not me, Hammond!!!Basically making it more difficult to leave your money to your family etc.. after you die instead of paying 55percent to taxman. Funny, but people are so unpatriotic and want to leave their savings to their spouses and kids... especially non British spouses are in bad position..


In the UK the inhertience tax is 40% and the tax free threshold is £325,000.
ETA just seen you last post . So what if it is a rip off , its nothing to do with Brexit .

So when did or do they have to start paying the extra 25% tax. Is it definitely to do with Brexit as we have not left yet ?
is there a tax threshold?


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> In the UK the inhertience tax is 40% and the tax free threshold is £325,000.
> 
> ETA just seen you last post . So what if it is a rip off , its nothing to do with Brexit .
> 
> So when did or do they have to start paying the extra 25% tax. Is it definitely to do with Brexit as we have not left yet ?
> is there a tax threshold?


I assume that it's the tax on private pensions that @cheekyscrip is referring to not the inheritance tax.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-your-private-pension/lifetime-allowance

or maybe tax on "Non Dom" residents in the UK.

https://www.expertsforexpats.com/expat-tax/non-dom-non-domiciled-tax-in-the-uk/


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Seriously? This has to be a joke!
> Thought Brexiteers wanted the Channel Tunnel filled in, not easier access to Europe!


Apparently there was such a plan before the Tunnel was dug !
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/...s-the-channel-isnt-crazy-but-the-backlash-is/

As it happens, the construction of a bridge across the English Channel bridge is entirely feasible. Detailed plans, drawn up by an engineering consortium, with finance in place, were considered by the Department of Transport as long ago as 1981.

Three years later, five schemes for a permanent cross-Channel link were investigated by Whitehall - including bridges, tunnels and bridge-tunnel combinations - before the present Chunnel design was agreed and then built, opening in 1994.


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> I assume that it's the tax on private pensions that @cheekyscrip is referring to not the inheritance tax.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-your-private-pension/lifetime-allowance
> 
> or maybe tax on "Non Dom" residents in the UK.
> 
> https://www.expertsforexpats.com/expat-tax/non-dom-non-domiciled-tax-in-the-uk/


Thanks , sorry I didn't make it clear I meant pensions . I'll check out the links !


----------



## noushka05

MiffyMoo said:


> Only one of those things is to do with Brexit, and I'm absolutely convinced that we have already discussed animal sentience. The fact that our animal sentience proposals go further than the EU law makes me perfectly happy, thank you.
> 
> I can't be bothered repeating myself on Carillion, so scroll up, if you're really interested.


You said you are critical of the things you're unhappy with. Well I'm just curious to know what anyone could actually be happy with?  Their austerity has destroyed millions of lives, crippled our NHS & public services & trashed our economy. They have wiped out tens of thousands of our badgers. They are going to destroy the environment & climate with their fracking.

Can you support this assertion that our animal sentience proposals go further than EU law? because it sounds like you've fallen for more tory spin.

Here's what CIWF say - https://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2017/1...politics&utm_source=ciwftw&utm_medium=twitter

If we do a trade deal with the US we will have to harmonise our standards with their dire standards. This will mean a race to the bottom for animal welfare, environmental protections, food safety standards, workers rights etc. When it comes to pass people on here cant say they weren't warned.....












KittenKong said:


> Have you seen my post #1117 Noushka?


Will check it out KK 



MiffyMoo said:


> Since when are they blaming everyone but themselves? May definitely is a remainer, but at least she has stepped up to the plate and is doing what the majority of those who voted want. She may be doing a disservice, but at least she is doing something. There's no point saying anything about Corbyn as he made it perfectly clear that his agenda was to undermine the government, rather than what is good for the country.
> 
> I think that Carillion's problems aren't just down to the Tories. They have been awarded contracts for years now, which they certainly shouldn't, but the most recent contract they were awarded was from Leeds Council (Labour). I'm certainly not excusing the Tories, but I'm also not pinning all the problems just on them.


You do realise its the job of opposition parties to hold the government to account? This government is crammed with a bunch of shameless liars. No politician in opposition worth their salt is going to give this cruel & corrupt government an easy ride. They are despicable, this country has never been in such a state.

I love this reply by Clive Lewis to a tory

*Clive Lewis*‏Verified [email protected]*labourlewis* Jan 18

Clive Lewis Retweeted Nadhim Zahawi

Maybe you've not been keeping up with current events my man but @*UKLabour* now under under new management.
PFI ain't on the menu anymore. History will show your party is wedded to a discredited and dying ideology #*neoliberalism*



MiffyMoo said:


> Andy Burnham signed off on 221 PFI contracts and he was only health secretary for one year!


Aren't you pleased about that? PFI are part & parcel of neoliberalism ideology. Surely as a supporter you understand the ideology of modern conservatism?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> So without the Eu, we'd all be working a minimum 70 hour week with no holidays, in conditions that would make a Victorian workhouse seem like luxury, if we survived the noxious chemicals we were breathing? Why not do away with our government bodies altogether? We can't manage without the Eu, we're all doomed.


Talking of breathing noxious chemicals 

*Keith Taylor MEP #LoveNHS*‏Verified [email protected]*GreenKeithMEP*  Jan 19

The EU has been forced to step up its action against a Tory Government that has been exposed, yet again, as failing in its duty 
to take even the most basic action to protect British citizens #*airpollution* #*BrexitShambles*


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> What a horrible country this is becoming. I'd hoped this was a joke.
> 
> View attachment 342087
> View attachment 342088


The rest of the world must shocked to see how far the UK & the USA have fallen in such a short space of time. This is what nationalism does to countries.



KittenKong said:


> View attachment 342123


Across the bridge?

_
You laugh now, but that bridge is going to come in handy when we're fleeing our terrible ****ing country. (James Felton)_


----------



## Arnie83

What price Britain's principles?

From today's Telegraph

Donald Trump should be welcomed to Britain because the country's ties with the US are vital for security and provide our "single most extraordinary economic relationship", Boris Johnson says today.

In the strongest defence yet of relations with the US president by a government minister, Mr Johnson says Mr Trump "is the elected president of the world's most powerful democracy" and resisting his visit to the UK risks "damaging the national interest".​
Once we leave the EU we will be desperate for a USA trade deal, so according to Boris we must overlook behaviour that we would unhesitatingly condemn in the leader of a country on which we weren't economically dependent.

Is the abdication of moral principles and meek kow-towing to a lying, racist, misogynyist what he meant by taking back control?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/20/should-welcome-donald-trump-visit-says-boris-johnson/


----------



## KittenKong

Interesting article in today's Guardian (or should that be Observer?)

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...our-majority-back-eu-single-market-membership

This paragraph is particularly interesting.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Interesting article in today's Guardian (or should that be Observer?)
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...our-majority-back-eu-single-market-membership
> 
> This paragraph is particularly interesting.
> View attachment 342592
> View attachment 342594


I wonder what the young ones think of their beloved St. Jermy now?
What will they be singing about him at Glasto _this_ year ?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I wonder what the young ones think of their beloved St. Jermy now?
> What will they be singing about him at Glasto _this_ year ?


That crossed my mind too. He's looking more like a dinosaur every day. If he doesn't change his stance soon the young will desert him in droves just as some members of the Labour Party have resigned through this alone. I would have certainly done so if I was a member.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> What price Britain's principles?
> 
> From today's Telegraph
> 
> Donald Trump should be welcomed to Britain because the country's ties with the US are vital for security and provide our "single most extraordinary economic relationship", Boris Johnson says today.
> 
> In the strongest defence yet of relations with the US president by a government minister, Mr Johnson says Mr Trump "is the elected president of the world's most powerful democracy" and resisting his visit to the UK risks "damaging the national interest".​
> Once we leave the EU we will be desperate for a USA trade deal, so according to Boris we must overlook behaviour that we would unhesitatingly condemn in the leader of a country on which we weren't economically dependent.
> 
> Is the abdication of moral principles and meek kow-towing to a lying, racist, misogynyist what he meant by taking back control?
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/20/should-welcome-donald-trump-visit-says-boris-johnson/


 The US is the EU biggest Trading partner and China is second.
Is that OK? 
Trump won't be President of for ever.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> That crossed my mind too. He's looking more like a dinosaur every day. If he doesn't change his stance soon the young will desert him in droves just as some members of the Labour Party have resigned through this alone. I would have certainly done so if I was a member.


Perhaps there should be a referendum for a soft or hard Brexit.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> The US is the EU biggest Trading partner and China is second.
> Is that OK?
> Trump won't be President of for ever.


Fine by me, but I wouldn't shy away from criticizing either country for fear of damaging that trade, and I wouldn't let fear of Donny's toys-out-the-pram reaction stop me from voicing disapproval of his many actions and words that so richly deserve it.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> Fine by me, but I wouldn't shy away from criticizing either country for fear of damaging that trade, and I wouldn't let fear of Donny's toys-out-the-pram reaction stop me from voicing disapproval of his many actions and words that so richly deserve it.


Sure but no ones seems to be criticising China , they using Trump to bash at Boris . 
I have a problem with Trump but I don't have a problem with America .










From the EU website .

I can't see the EU withdrawing from trade with the US because of Trump and no reason why they should either .


Total US investment in the EU is three times higher than in all of Asia.
EU investment in the US is around eight times the amount of EU investment in India and China together.
EU and US investments are the real driver of the transatlantic relationship, contributing to growth and jobs on both sides of the Atlantic. It is estimated that a third of the trade across the Atlantic actually consists of intra-company transfers.
The transatlantic relationship also defines the shape of the global economy as a whole. Either the EU or the US is the largest trade and investment partner for almost all other countries in the global economy.
The EU and the US economies account together for about half the entire world GDP and for nearly a third of world trade flows.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Sure but no ones seems to be criticising China , they using Trump to bash at Boris .
> I have a problem with Trump but I don't have a problem with America .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the EU website .
> 
> I can't see the EU withdrawing from trade with the US because of Trump and no reason why they should either .
> 
> 
> Total US investment in the EU is three times higher than in all of Asia.
> EU investment in the US is around eight times the amount of EU investment in India and China together.
> EU and US investments are the real driver of the transatlantic relationship, contributing to growth and jobs on both sides of the Atlantic. It is estimated that a third of the trade across the Atlantic actually consists of intra-company transfers.
> The transatlantic relationship also defines the shape of the global economy as a whole. Either the EU or the US is the largest trade and investment partner for almost all other countries in the global economy.
> The EU and the US economies account together for about half the entire world GDP and for nearly a third of world trade flows.


I see the point, but the EU isn't advocating according Trump a state visit; Boris is.

Welcoming Trump, specifically, is condoning his abhorrent words and actions. I'll welcome a US trade delegation - no problem - but not Trump. If he then chooses not to pursue a trade deal with us, then so be it. And like you say, he's not there for ever. Or even for long, with any luck.

Maybe Boris isn't too concerned with Trump's lying, misogyny and racism. Certainly not as concerned as he is about Boris!


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Perhaps there should be a referendum for a soft or hard Brexit.


Would suit me as long as the option to remain in the EU was an option!

Still, it's significant many who voted leave support the idea of a permanent single market and customs union membership. I'm all for compromise at the end of the day.

For some leavers suggesting all who voted leave support withdrawal from the SM and CU would be like me arguing all who voted remain support adopting the Euro etc.

Neither is correct.


----------



## Arnie83

Talking of which ...

I see Priti Patel is today advocating that we have to leave the Customs Union so that we can 'succeed' outside the EU by negotiating our own trade deals and diverging from EU regulations.

I note that she doesn't explain how we (65 million market) can negotiate better trade deals than can the EU (500 million market).

Nor how we could then have an Ireland without a hard border.

Any ideas welcome ...


----------



## Arnie83

From the Beeb:

The US has approved controversial tariffs on imported washing machines and solar panels.

The move is in line with President Donald Trump's "America First" trade policy, which aims to protect local manufacturers from foreign competition.

A spokesman said the administration would "always defend American workers, farmers, ranchers and businessmen".​
Call it scaremongering if you like, but the post-Brexit free trade deal that will make everything okay is looking ever more dodgy to me. "Free trade on everything, except where you might gain at our expense."


----------



## KittenKong

Good point!


----------



## Bisbow

Isn't it strange that you remainers totally ignore the fact that an ardent remainer, Lord O'neill, has admitted that he was wrong about the economy diving after the referendum and it is thriving
Nothing must prove you wrong, must it, even from the mouth of one of your own

YOU STILL SEARCH THE INTERNET FOR NEGATIVES


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Isn't it strange that you remainers totally ignore the fact that an ardent remainer, Lord O'neill, has admitted that he was wrong about the economy diving after the referendum and it is thriving
> Nothing must prove you wrong, must it, even from the mouth of one of your own
> 
> YOU STILL SEARCH THE INTERNET FOR NEGATIVES


What I find stranger is how brexiters dismiss the overwhelming evidence which shows brexit will be a disaster yet believe any scrap which feeds their extreme confirmation bias :Hilarious We don't have to search hard for negatives - but look as I might, positives are as rare as hens teeth. Brexit has already made us poorer & diminished our status in the world to a joke.

Who is Lord O'neill anyway? a tory or maybe a ukipper?

The Lancet doesn't peddle 'fake news'. Its the most prestigious medical journal in the world & its evaluation of brexit shows any form of brexit will be a disaster for our NHS already crippled by the tories. We can either have our NHS OR brexit. We can't have both. I hope you think your decision to drag us out of the EU is worth it. At least I'll know I played no part in its destruction.

.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> it
> 
> You seen unable to stand on your own two feet without help as we leavers can and will do when we do leave
> 
> Just to add, I do not read the Sun or any of it's tripe as you seem to


If 'standing on your own two feet' means grovelling to Trump, I'm proud to have played no part in it. Its embarrassing!


----------



## Bisbow

You would not believe the truth if it hit you in the eye

Just goes to show your "experts" can be wrong, look up Lord O;Niell,

I've had my say so will now go back to just reading your negatives and having a laugh at your blindness when it suits you

And putting your posts in large enough letters that a blind man could read is a laugh in it's self


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Isn't it strange that you remainers totally ignore the fact that an ardent remainer, Lord O'neill, has admitted that he was wrong about the economy diving after the referendum and it is thriving
> Nothing must prove you wrong, must it, even from the mouth of one of your own
> 
> YOU STILL SEARCH THE INTERNET FOR NEGATIVES


Well I searched for Lord O'Neil's speech on the hardly pro remain BBC.

You've failed to spot the UK hasn't left the EU, CU and SM yet!


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> You would not believe the truth if it hit you in the eye
> 
> Just goes to show your "experts" can be wrong, look up Lord O;Niell,
> 
> I've had my say so will now go back to just reading your negatives and having a laugh at your blindness when it suits you
> 
> And putting your posts in large enough letters that a blind man could read is a laugh in it's self


The Lancet doesn't spread propaganda Bisbow. If you choose to be wilfully blind that's your prerogative - but the evidence is there if you wish to see it. When the NHS is gone forever & 'project fear' becomes reality to even the most hardened brextremist, a lot of people are going be forced to reflect upon their choice to dismiss solid evidence as 'fake news'.

This is actually out of the Lancet Bisbow. Fake news?


----------



## noushka05

Tories showing their true colours & it certainly aint GREEN!

We'll soon have our title as 'the dirty man of Europe' back when we brexit.

*
UK opposes strong EU recycling targets despite plastics pledge*
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...te-plastics-pledge?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> Isn't it strange that you remainers totally ignore the fact that an ardent remainer, Lord O'neill, has admitted that he was wrong about the economy diving after the referendum and it is thriving
> Nothing must prove you wrong, must it, even from the mouth of one of your own
> 
> YOU STILL SEARCH THE INTERNET FOR NEGATIVES


I search the internet for facts, and then analyse them.

Most economists, including me were wrong about what happened after the referendum. I've said so on here before.

They (& I) expected that consumer spending would contract as people became concerned about the future effects of Brexit and prepared for a rainy day.

It didn't, maybe because they were perhaps happy about the result, or because Brexit was still at the very least 2 years away. Many factors, probably. Other things did happen of course, including the drop in the pound, a resultant improvement in export performance and a resultant increase in inflation. Those effects are now passing.

The world economy has begun a bit of boom as well, which is good news for everyone, and which will mitigate the effects of the vote and the ongoing concern over the future. Trump's tax cuts and promises of more spending has had a significant effect (though imo it will be relatively short term), and economic growth all round the world has improved.

Except in the UK.

*Why do you think that is?*

As for the future, I expect that after phase 2 negotiations are done there will be no recession, unless Brexit is especially hard. There will be growth enough to allow Brexiters to claim "I told you so" and to dismiss as nonsense any claims that we would be doing better had we remained. From an economic point of view, though, the next generation will not enjoy the growth and the opportunities that they would otherwise have had.

For many Brexiters I suspect that's just fine. Many didn't vote leave because they thought we'd be better off. For them, freedom from "Brussels" and its opportunity cost will be well worth it, especially when it's hidden behind positive, if relatively anaemic growth.

If you read Lord O'Neill's full comments, you will find that he thinks much the same.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Predictions = Theories

Economists haven't exactly been a reliable source of information in the past as they often get their theories wrong, like their predictions on Trump not winning the US elections, like their doom and gloom predictions on the immediate aftermath of the referendum etc, etc.

So no offence but mine still won't work (crystal ball that is):









I think I will just stick with the facts.
1) The world economy is currently on a boom.
2) Phase 1 of the EU negotiations are over.
3) Things were nowhere near as bad as the predictions (theories) made about the referendum.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Predictions = Theories
> 
> Economists haven't exactly been a reliable source of information in the past as they often get their theories wrong, like their predictions on Trump not winning the US elections, like their doom and gloom predictions on the immediate aftermath of the referendum etc, etc.
> 
> So no offence but mine still won't work (crystal ball that is):
> 
> I think I will just stick with the facts.
> 1) The world economy is currently on a boom.
> 2) Phase 1 of the EU negotiations are over.
> 3) Things were nowhere near as bad as the predictions (theories) made about the referendum.
> 4) We are leaving so that's that.


Not sure why economists are being linked with predictions about Presidential elections.

But if "The world economy is currently on a boom", why isn't the UK, would you say?


----------



## Arnie83

And answers came there none.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Spanish have seen the UK as an opportunity to have their bank here


Guess...which country in the whole world launders the most British money?

More than any Banana Republic or Tax Haven?
The answer is : Spain!!!

Makes sense to have their banks ready in UK!!!

Then Spain accuses Gibraltar of money laundering!!!!
Yes, Brexit will be a golden opportunity to have banks out of EU jurisdiction!!!


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Predictions = Theories
> 
> Economists haven't exactly been a reliable source of information in the past as they often get their theories wrong, like their predictions on Trump not winning the US elections, like their doom and gloom predictions on the immediate aftermath of the referendum etc, etc.
> 
> So no offence but mine still won't work (crystal ball that is):
> View attachment 342965
> 
> 
> I think I will just stick with the facts.
> 1) The world economy is currently on a boom.
> 2) Phase 1 of the EU negotiations are over.
> 3) Things were nowhere near as bad as the predictions (theories) made about the referendum.
> 4) We are leaving so that's that.


As to the point 4 - was to say " that I that", end of- if it is not you and yours directly affected.
For us here, or and Northern Ireland it is vital to stay in EU.
It would affect Ireland, millions of people who want to travel freely, who want to access education, job markets, who planned retirement abroad. Millions of expats and EU workers, most of them couldn't vote!
How appalling is that selfishness to sacrifice other peoples chances and livehoods for what?
When countries everywhere unite into trading blocs!
The worst idea since the war against America.
The same arrogance like in 1776!!!
Gibraltar saved you then from Spanish and French invasion when British fleet was engaged over the water!!!
Who will save you now?
From yourselves?

So that is that.

I intend to fight Brexit as I can.


----------



## Bisbow

" It was a mistake but not a disaster"

Who said it

Scaremonger in chief David Cameron

Well, well, well


----------



## stockwellcat.

Me as a leave voter don't look at turning to the past but instead look forward to the future. The only ones I see here looking at the past and thinking Brexit means turning back time is the remainers, I personally think we will have a better future out of the EU. The past has happened the future is ahead not behind us.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Me as a leave voter don't look at turning to the past but instead look forward to the future. The only ones I see here looking at the past and thinking Brexit means turning back time is the remainers, I personally think we will have a better future out of the EU. The past has happened the future is ahead not behind us.


So tell me about the future of Gibraltar?


----------



## KittenKong

And the NI/ROI border.


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> " It was a mistake but not a disaster"
> 
> Who said it
> 
> Scaremonger in chief David Cameron
> 
> Well, well, well


Depends on your definition I suppose, but economically I would agree, as I said in answer to your last post.

But why aren't we currently doing very well economically in comparison with Europe and the world, do you think?


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> And the NI/ROI border.


Or expats? EU workers? Universities without money from foreign students? Welsh farmers? They can all suck it up!Millions will suffer- that is the future we are to face thanks to Brexit .


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Me as a leave voter don't look at turning to the past but instead look forward to the future. The only ones I see here looking at the past and thinking Brexit means turning back time is the remainers, I personally think we will have a better future out of the EU. The past has happened the future is ahead not behind us.


Leavers want to "take *back *control": i.e. go *back* to how it was before. Is that not going back? Reverting to an earlier model?

Is not Brexit the very definition of returning to the past rather than looking to the future?

Incidentally, why do you think the UK's current economic performance is comparatively poor?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Mr Project Fear Campaigner and Remain Campaigner at the World Economic Forum at the Davos summit.








Admitting Brexit "turned out less badly than we first thought".


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Mr Project Fear Campaigner and Remain Campaigner at the World Economic Forum at the Davos summit.
> 
> Admitting Brexit "turned out less badly than we first thought".


I'm really sorry to keep banging on, but if you're looking for a slogan to laud the benefits of Brexit, then "*turned out less badly than we first thought*" isn't really terribly convincing, is it?

If the whole Brexit thing is good for the country, why do you think the UK's economic performance is rather anaemic compared to the rest of the world right now?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I'm really sorry to keep banging on, but if you're looking for a slogan to laud the benefits of Brexit, then "*turned out less badly than we first thought*" isn't really terribly convincing, is it?


Well it's all over the press tomorrow what he said. So I think we can safely dismiss his Project Fear campaign and it puts all of the current spin from remainers into an ignore box, even though I was ignoring it anyway. The person who put the question to the nation has said "It turned out less badly than we first thought" meaning Brexit is admitting he was wrong with all his doom mongering and gloomy outcomes that never happened and Brexit.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Well it's all over the press tomorrow what he said. So I think we can safely dismiss his Project Fear campaign and it puts all of the current spin from remainers into an ignore box, even though I was ignoring it anyway. The person who put the question to the nation has said "It turned out less badly than we first thought" meaning Brexit is admitting he was wrong with all his doom mongering and gloomy outcomes that never happened and Brexit.


Confirming that all it boils down to is damage limitations!!!
Congratulations Leavers!!! Instead of 350mln more for NHS weekly we are 350 mln less, but it could have been worse and still could be !!!
Let's have celebratory stamp!!!


----------



## KittenKong

Arnie83 said:


> Leavers want to "take *back *control": i.e. go *back* to how it was before. Is that not going back? Reverting to an earlier model?
> 
> Is not Brexit the very definition of returning to the past rather than looking to the future?


The past being the future by any chance? I'm surprised there's no reports (yet) of garages selling petrol by the Gallon for the first time since 1982.

Then, the price of £5.50 a gallon approx would probably dull such nostalgia craved by so many!


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> If the whole Brexit thing is good for the country, why do you think the UK's economic performance is rather anaemic compared to the rest of the world right now?


 The Tory Government?
Unemployment was down in November ( but I expect that to go up due to Carrillion)
Inflation dropped this month.
The pound rate is up and the dollar and euro rates are down today.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well it's all over the press tomorrow what he said. *So I think we can safely dismiss his Project Fear campaign and it puts all of the current spin from remainers into an ignore box*, even though I was ignoring it anyway. The person who put the question to the nation has said "It turned out less badly than we first thought" meaning Brexit is admitting he was wrong with all his doom mongering and gloomy outcomes that never happened and Brexit.


Those leave voters who aren't really interested in the economic consequences of Brexit have been ignoring it from the word go and will continue to do so. Those who are concerned about what might happen to the poorer people of the country would do well to pay very close attention indeed.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> The Tory Government?
> Unemployment was down in November ( but I expect that to go up due to Carrillion)
> Inflation dropped this month.
> The pound rate is up and the dollar and euro rates are down today.


I think you might be ignoring the elephant in the room.


----------



## kimthecat

Arnie83 said:


> I think you might be ignoring the elephant in the room.


 No I'm not . He's sitting next to me eating his breakfast .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> The Tory Government?
> Unemployment was down in November ( but I expect that to go up due to Carrillion)
> Inflation dropped this month.
> The pound rate is up and the dollar and euro rates are down today.


The unemployment figures have been fiddled for years. From the late '80s it only included people claiming Unemployment Benefit that could be claimed for six months. After that you'd go onto Income Support and off the figures!


----------



## stockwellcat.

UK should get a bespoke trade deal with EU, Ireland's prime minister Leo Varadkar says. France and Germany have also said the same thing. I thought the EU wasn't going to allow this yet 3 major players in the negotiations have come forward saying the UK should have a bespoke deal. Looks like the UK will be allowed to cherry pick after all.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> No I'm not . He's sitting next to me eating his breakfast .


Who is . . . David Cameron?


----------



## Mirandashell

kimthecat said:


> No I'm not . He's sitting next to me eating his breakfast .


Harsh! :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Who is . . . David Cameron?


:Hilarious If he was, I'd kick his a*se so hard he wouldn't be able to sit down for a week !



KittenKong said:


> The unemployment figures have been fiddled for years.


I'll remember that for the next time you blame a rise in unemployment on Brexit. 



Mirandashell said:


> Harsh! :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> No I'm not . He's sitting next to me eating his breakfast .


I thought you was in a cafe having Breakfast and David Cameron was sat next to you at another table. :Smuggrin


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I'll remember that for the next time you blame a rise in unemployment on Brexit.


Actually that wasn't Brexit related. Just pointing out the figures only included those out of work and claiming Unemployment Benefit.

The time Brexit will be blamed, or should I say a major contribution to a huge post Brexit rise in unemployment I'm sure the government will have something ready for that to disguise the figures further.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> I thought you was in a cafe having Breakfast and David Cameron was sat next to you at another table. :Smuggrin


in Ibiza ! I wish! :Hilarious

Ive not seen Cam anywhere but Boris was doing a tour of the local schools and shops when he was first elected , I'd just come out of my front gate to go to the dog poo bin and he was walking up the road with a crony . I went back in !


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> Boris was doing a tour of the local schools and shops when he was first elected , I'd just come out of my front gate to go to the dog poo bin and he was walking up the road with a crony . I went back in !


Assuming you were on your way to the dog poo bin for the obvious reason, how come you didn't take a pot(ty) shot?


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Assuming you were on your way to the dog poo bin for the obvious reason, how come you didn't take a pot(ty) shot?


:Jawdrop :Hilarious I felt like shouting out On yer bike, Boris !

or Politicians are like dogs , they're full of c rap and someone has to clear up their mess.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> UK should get a bespoke trade deal with EU, Ireland's prime minister Leo Varadkar says. France and Germany have also said the same thing. I thought the EU wasn't going to allow this yet 3 major players in the negotiations have come forward saying the UK should have a bespoke deal. *Looks like the UK will be allowed to cherry pick after all*.


Varadkar:

*Such a deal would, however, require the UK to realise that it cannot cherry pick benefits of EU membership without the corresponding responsibilities*. Access to European markets for London-based financial services firms would depend on what the UK might give in return.​


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> UK should get a bespoke trade deal with EU, Ireland's prime minister Leo Varadkar says. France and Germany have also said the same thing. I thought the EU wasn't going to allow this yet 3 major players in the negotiations have come forward saying the UK should have a bespoke deal. *Looks like the UK will be allowed to cherry pick after all*.


I doubt it - 'bespoke' does not mean the same as 'cherry pick.' I would expect that if we want to retain any membership benefits, we'll have to comply with the appropriate legistlation and make the appropriate concessions. Which is pretty much what the EU have been saying all along...


----------



## Goblin

In case you didn't realise it. Every trade deal is bespoke. One of the reasons terms for the UK for trade deals with the rest of the world will be worse in general than rest of the world trade deals with the EU. It willl not simply be copying EU trade deals but using negotiating power and the simple truth is the EU has six times the negotiating power.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 343039


Waging war against America? A bit of misunderstanding then?:Mooning


----------



## noushka05

Global Britain.


----------



## noushka05

kimthecat said:


> The Tory Government?
> Unemployment was down in November ( but I expect that to go up due to Carrillion)
> Inflation dropped this month.
> The pound rate is up and the dollar and euro rates are down today.


The tories have trashed our economy with their austerity & their brexit. So yes the tory government are to blame.

*Andrew Adonis*‏Verified [email protected]*Andrew_Adonis*  1h1 hour ago

_The world economy has accelerated and we in UK haven't seen that.' Mark Carney on why his predictions of a BREXIT slowdown proved right: UK economy 'tens of billions' weaker than wd otherwise have been @*BBCr4today*_


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> " It was a mistake but not a disaster"
> 
> Who said it
> 
> Scaremonger in chief David Cameron
> 
> Well, well, well


Leaving the EU " was a mistake but not a disaster ", so all pretence of it being beneficial abandoned now???

We haven't left yet Bisbow. We still have all membership advantages, business is yet to implement exit strategies. Good grief.


----------



## Arnie83

Following on from @noushka05 's post above, from the New York Times ...

The day before, President Emmanuel Macron of France had received rock star-style treatment from a packed crowd that waited nearly an hour for a chance just to get into the room where he was to speak. People who arrived a moment before Mrs. May's speech found empty seats within a few rows of the stage.

Around the world, every major economy is now growing in a synchronized wave of expansion that has finally put the finish on a wrenching global downturn that began a decade ago.

"It is the best moment in the global economy since the '50s," said Kenneth Rogoff, an international economist at Harvard University.

*Britain stands out as one of the weaker performers*. Its economy probably expanded by just 1.7 percent last year and is expected to grow by only 1.5 percent this year, according to the International Monetary Fund. _[Growth actually 0.1% higher than expected, on today's figures]_

By contrast, the I.M.F. estimates that the United States economy will grow by 2.7 percent this year, and the 19 nations that share the euro currency will collectively expand by 2.2 percent.​
Our influence is fading and our growth is anaemic. And for those looking to the US to ride to the rescue with a wonderful trade deal ...

*... trade between the United States and Britain is already so free of tariffs that a deal would probably be of far more symbolic importance than a spur to increased commerce.*​
The Brexit vote is already costing us £350m per week - the taxes on which could have been boosting the NHS right now.

I can still see no way that we are going to end up ahead before the timeframe is pushed so far into the future than any predictions are meaningless.

But it's still fine for those who see this country as an abstract concept, and not as a population of people trying to do the best for themselves and their children.


----------



## Arnie83

And we have to update the Brexit Bingo card with "Brexit Dividend".

That's a nice sounding phrase like "Take Back Control" that will be heard with all sorts of 'promises' attached to it over the next few weeks and months.

It's designed to make people think, through repetition, that we are actually going to have more money when we leave the EU. Money that we can lavish on all sorts of things that we want, and especially the NHS. Money that we wouldn't have had without Brexit.

It is, of course, a misleading half-truth at best. Yes we will stop paying fees to the EU (probably). Even after the rebate it'll be quite a bit. But the costs to business and the slower growth rate will reduce the tax take by so much more that we will have considerably less money to spend on services than would have been the case had we remained.

Slower growth already means that we have lost billions that would have been available. The "Brexit Dividend" will make a dent in our on-going losses. But painting it as a windfall is a con. Don't be fooled.


----------



## KittenKong

I wonder who thought of that idea? Pro Brexit press by any chance?

After the £350m for the NHS con I'd like to think no one would fall for this.

Then, nothing would surprise me.


----------



## KittenKong

Speaking of the press....


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> I wonder who thought of that idea? Pro Brexit press by any chance?
> 
> After the £350m for the NHS con *I'd like to think no one would fall for this*.
> 
> Then, nothing would surprise me.


That's what's so perfect about it. It is undeniable that once we leave we don't have to pay fees.

For those who are not suspicious or interested enough to delve a little deeper - which I'm afraid is a very large number of people - that logic will simply go unquestioned.

And Brexit Dividend will become a fact. We're going to have lots of money to spend. Let's leave now!

It's calculatedly dishonest, but it will work.


----------



## Arnie83

Right on cue, Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of England on the Brexit Effect...

"The economy is about a percentage point less in size than we expected before the vote at this point in time - by the end of the year, probably two percentage points," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"What it works it out to is tens of billions of pounds of lower economic activity."​
Think what we could have done with the taxes from that little lot.

But some potential optimism ...

"The world economy is accelerating and we haven't seen that yet. But there is the prospect this year, as there is greater clarity with the relationship with Europe and subsequently with the rest of the world, for a conscious recoupling of the UK economy with the global economy."​
That, of course, depends on what relationship is negotiated. If businesses like it the damage may not be all that long term. If not ...


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Speaking of the press....
> View attachment 343126


 They always do tiny corrections that no one notices.


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> They always do tiny corrections that no one notices.


I like the way they apologise for "the contrary impression given", as though they sort of, might have, perhaps hinted at Sturgeon's supposed misdeeds, rather than had a huge front page banner headline accusing her!


----------



## Arnie83

*Brexit: Britons favour second referendum by 16-point margin - poll*

Only a poll, but a large margin. Gives us a clue as to the Will of the People.

Some other interesting findings as well, including:

Q2 What impact do you think Brexit will have on the British economy? Negative 49% Positive 36%

You want to fund the NHS? Vote Remain in the second referendum! 

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rendum-brexit-icm-poll?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> *Brexit: Britons favour second referendum by 16-point margin - poll*
> 
> Only a poll, but a large margin. Gives us a clue as to the Will of the People.
> 
> Some other interesting findings as well, including:
> 
> Q2 What impact do you think Brexit will have on the British economy? Negative 49% Positive 36%
> 
> You want to fund the NHS? Vote Remain in the second referendum!
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rendum-brexit-icm-poll?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


You may find Brexitiers wanting a second referendum as well not just remainers so if the UK votes leave again that will be the issue finalised. Brexitiers across the UK are hardening their stance as well I have read in the press. Many remainers now back leave.

How can you tell if the 16 point margine is brexitiers or remainers majority?

The thing is a second referendum to undermine the first one aint going to happen.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> They always do tiny corrections that no one notices.





Arnie83 said:


> I like the way they apologise for "the contrary impression given", as though they sort of, might have, perhaps hinted at Sturgeon's supposed misdeeds, rather than had a huge front page banner headline accusing her!


They should be made to put these apologies on the front page using the usual big letters!


----------



## KittenKong

And another example I've just come across on, "Facebook"!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> You may find Brexitiers wanting a second referendum as well not just remainers so if the UK votes leave again that will be the issue finalised. Brexitiers across the UK are hardening their stance as well I have read in the press. Many remainers now back leave.
> 
> How can you tell if the 16 point margine is brexitiers or remainers majority?
> 
> The thing is a second referendum to undermine the first one aint going to happen.


I think the figures in the link answered all your questions, but to precis it:

Certainly those who want a second referendum include Leavers as well as Remainers. We can see that from the figures - there is a 16% 'lead' for those calling for a referendum, but only a 2% lead for Remain over Leave should that referendum be held. (Well within the margin for error.)

Whether or not a referendum on the outcome of negotiations will be held is moot. Certainly at the moment the government has no plans for one, but 9 months is a long time in politics.

As John Maynard Keynes is reputed to have said, "When facts change, I change my mind." There are many new facts that will emerge over the next few months. Democracy, as I understand it, demands that we consider them and are given the chance to change our minds.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I think the figures in the link answered all your questions, but to precis it:
> 
> Certainly those who want a second referendum include Leavers as well as Remainers. We can see that from the figures - there is a 16% 'lead' for those calling for a referendum, but only a 2% lead for Remain over Leave should that referendum be held. (Well within the margin for error.)
> 
> Whether or not a referendum on the outcome of negotiations will be held is moot. Certainly at the moment the government has no plans for one, but 9 months is a long time in politics.
> 
> As John Maynard Keynes is reputed to have said, "When facts change, I change my mind." There are many new facts that will emerge over the next few months. Democracy, as I understand it, demands that we consider them and are given the chance to change our minds.


All a referendum will do on the outcome of the negotiations is accept or decline the deal and all the British public will be doing in this case is sending UK negotiators back to the negotiating table, not stopping Brexit. But the UK negotiators can only go back to the negotisting table if the remaining 27 countries agree to it. So if the deal is rejected by the UK public it will basically cause the UK to hard brexit with no deal. So remainers hopes of a referendum at the end of the process will not transpire and if it does the question would be:

Do you agree with the deal with the EU?
Yes
No

If not the UK leaves with no deal.

So how would you vote if you had to answer the above question.

Remainers are going to be so disappointed because I cannot see a referendum at the end of the process to undermine the first referendum. Parliament have been given a vote in Parliament.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> You may find Brexitiers wanting a second referendum as well not just remainers so if the UK votes leave again that will be the issue finalised. Brexitiers across the UK are hardening their stance as well I have read in the press. Many remainers now back leave.
> 
> How can you tell if the 16 point margine is brexitiers or remainers majority?
> 
> The thing is a second referendum to undermine the first one aint going to happen.


Don't hold your breath. Theresa May insisted numerous times she would not call an early General Election this time last year. You just have to hope she doesn't change her mind again. She's so unpredictable, anything can happen, even another early election! I wouldn't put anything past her, nor trust a word she says. I find it incredible some still do.

Conversely many leave voters now back remain, or at least recognise a no deal hard Brexit will be disastrous.

As mentioned earlier not all leave voters agree with leaving the SM and CU in the same sense not all remain voters back adopting the Euro etc.

Still, if they were to be another referendum with the facts known such as leaving the SM and CU, hard UK/EU border between NI and the Republic and if the government carry out their election pledge to allow ex pats living abroad for 15 years or more the right to vote then I would agree the decision would be final if leave won with a decisive clear majority.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Don't hold your breath. Theresa May insisted numerous times she would not call an early General Election this time last year. You just have to hope she doesn't change her mind again. She's so unpredictable, anything can happen, even another early election! I wouldn't put anything past her, nor trust a word she says. I find it incredible some still do.
> 
> Conversely many leave voters now back remain, or at least recognise a no deal hard Brexit will be disastrous.
> 
> As mentioned earlier not all leave voters agree with leaving the SM and CU in the same sense not all remain voters back adopting the Euro etc.
> 
> Still, if they were to be another referendum with the facts known such as leaving the SM and CU, hard UK/EU border between NI and the Republic and if the government carry out their election pledge to allow ex pats living abroad for 15 years or more the right to vote then I would agree the decision would be final if leave won with a decisive clear majority.


Well I won't hold my breath because Theresa May might not be in power by the end of the negotiations as 40 MP's are ready to sign a vote of no confidence against her over Brexit (they only need 8 more signatures). MP's are also voting against the next piece of legislation for Brexit and want amendments as it goes against what people voted for on the 23rd June 2016 which is to do with the SM and CU. I agree Theresa May is to wishy washy.

Graham Brady Chair of the Conservatives 1922 committee yesterday confirmed they have received 40 signature letters (they need another 8 signature letters) of no confidence against Theresa May and is expecting more after her Davos speeches from Theresa May.

If I was a remainer (which I am not) I would be worrying who will replace Theresa May with as it could be a Brexitier like JRM (who is the Parties favourite to replace TM). Having an election within the Party for a new leader does not mean there needs to be another GE.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Conversely many leave voters now back remain, or at least recognise a no deal hard Brexit will be disastrous.


Do they?

Proof please as online polls aren't proof as they have been proven wrong so many times.

I think you will find leavers and quite alot of remainers want the Government to stop dilly dallying around and get on with what was voted for on the 23rd June 2016. These online polls are meaningless as they don't reflect a large amount of the population.


----------



## Arnie83

And on the subject of newspapers being somewhat economical with the truth ...

In light of the UK being the only country where growth has slowed, now lagging behind Europe and the rest of the world, and where only yesterday Mark Carney said that we are 2% behind where we would be had the vote gone the other way ...

We have this front page headline from today's Express:

*Brexit boom is HERE as economy soars to defy doom-mongers*

So this slow-down is, in fact, a "Brexit boom". It really does beggar belief.


----------



## KittenKong

The nightmare begins.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hs-us-trade-deal-brexit-torture-a7548156.html

Even if the US fronted health service remained free for the time being anyone happy with the idea taxpayers' money is used to prop up the profits of US health companies rather than into the NHS, a British institution don't forget?

Since when has Trump, or indeed any other US president, been voted in by the UK electorate?


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> All a referendum will do on the outcome of the negotiations is accept or decline the deal and all the British public will be doing in this case is sending UK negotiators back to the negotiating table, not stopping Brexit. But the UK negotiators can only go back to the negotisting table if the remaining 27 countries agree to it. So if the deal is rejected by the UK public it will basically cause the UK to hard brexit with no deal. So remainers hopes of a referendum at the end of the process will not transpire and if it does the question would be:
> 
> Do you agree with the deal with the EU?
> Yes
> No
> 
> If not the UK leaves with no deal.
> 
> So how would you vote if you had to answer the above question.
> 
> Remainers are going to be so disappointed because I cannot see a referendum at the end of the process to undermine the first referendum. Parliament have been given a vote in Parliament.


I'm not aware that the question/s in any post-negotiation referendum have been finalised.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> If I was a remainer (which I am not) I would be worrying who will replace Theresa May with as it could be a Brexitier like JRM (who is the Parties favourite to replace TM). Having an election within the Party for a new leader does not mean there needs to be another GE.


I think those Britons who are at the poorer end of the wealth spectrum should worry about that very much indeed. Similarly those who want peace in Northern Ireland. Mogg would be a disaster for the people of the country he purports to love. Hopefully we won't find out.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> If I was a remainer (which I am not) I would be worrying who will replace Theresa May with as it could be a Brexitier like JRM (who is the Parties favourite to replace TM). Having an election within the Party for a new leader does not mean there needs to be another GE.


Not me, May is as bad as the rest of them. Makes no difference who's PM.

Then of course it could backfire with a more moderate replacement elected leader such as Philip Hammond for example.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> And another example I've just come across on, "Facebook"!
> View attachment 343184


Sun is really nothing but a thug and the size of the corrections symbolizes pretty well the size of the owner´s morals. Bad bad bad all the way.



KittenKong said:


> The nightmare begins.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-donald-trump-nhs-us-trade-deal-brexit-torture-a7548156.html
> 
> Even if the US fronted health service remained free for the time being anyone happy with the idea taxpayers' money is used to prop up the profits of US health companies rather than into the NHS, a British institution don't forget?
> 
> Since when has Trump, or indeed any other US president, been voted in by the UK electorate?
> View attachment 343220
> [/QUOTE
> 
> So the worst case scenario is approching. I wonder how the will sell this? US is notariously expensive for tax payers leaving most poor without any care and way too many US doctors have a moral of a sun editor. (the reason for my claim is the US way of subsribing strong painkillers has caused a huge drug problem, and still the system is the same.)
> 
> My question: is this what you really want to happen after you are on your own? Is this what benefits British people?


----------



## KittenKong

I would be very surprised if the Tories chose JRM to be their leader to be honest. He hardly has the popularist appeal of Farage, Gove or Johnson. Most see him for exactly who he is. I think he would cost the party many votes and members.

Yes, he would be first choice for the far right of the party but I can't see him getting the support of many of the more moderate elements somehow.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Do you agree with the deal with the EU?


Considering a 2nd referendum is not currently on the cards how do you know what the question would be? Without knowing your whole argument falls apart.



> MP's are also voting against the next piece of legislation for Brexit and want amendments as it goes against what people voted for on the 23rd June 2016 which is to do with the SM and CU.


Funny that as the definition of leave has never been defined. Nobody knows what people really voted for. Some for example voted for 350million a week extra to be spent on the NHS rather than the government losing 350million a week due to brexit.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I think you will find leavers and quite alot of remainers want the Government to stop dilly dallying around and get on with what was voted for on the 23rd June 2016.


Again.. nobody knows what was actually voted for. Terms have never been defined which is one of the main arguments for a 2nd referendum.



> These online polls are meaningless as they don't reflect a large amount of the population.


Bit like the referendum then


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> I would be very surprised if the Tories chose JRM to be their leader to be honest. He hardly has the popularist appeal of Farage, Gove or Johnson. Most see him for exactly who he is. I think he would cost the party many votes and members.
> 
> Yes, he would be first choice for the far right of the party but I can't see him getting the support of many of the more moderate elements somehow.


Here are the odds.
DefSec Gavin Williamson now joint 3rd favourite on Betfair to succeed to May
Rees-Mogg 14%
BoJo 12% 
Hunt & Williamson 6%
Rudd 5%
Gove/Davidson/Raab 4%

As I heard someone say - "_The Tory pool of talent is not a deep one" _lol


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Speaking of the press....
> View attachment 343126





KittenKong said:


> And another example I've just come across on, "Facebook"!
> View attachment 343184


Its no surprise that many who voted to leave read the hate filled right wing gutter press like the Sun, Mail, Express . They are little more than propaganda rags for their billionaire non dom owners.

I follow the excellent Stop Funding Hate on twitter - they expose these rags for what they are & lobby & shame the companies who advertise in them. This is their face book page - https://www.facebook.com/stopfundinghate


----------



## Arnie83

Donald Trump on why he (apparently) predicted that Leave would win. It was "mostly immigration".

"I know the British people and understand them. They don't want people coming from all over the world into Britain. They don't know anything about these people."​


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> If people who do not live in U.K., neither their family and want their pensions/ savings out paying the local rate I understand it perfectly well. Now they have to pay extra 25percent tax if they are domiciled in Britain, it is complicated, but basically stops you from using your savings/ pension as you, selfish would want to!!!
> .





kimthecat said:


> So when did or do they have to start paying the extra 25% tax. Is it definitely to do with Brexit as we have not left yet ?
> is there a tax threshold?


I don't think I received an answer from you about this .


----------



## Arnie83

@Bisbow

You never answer my questions, but I'll ask anyway.

I got the impression that @cheekyscrip was referring to monetary benefits which might be claimed as a result of Brexit, and I honestly can't see any persuasive reasons to expect any, (with the caveat that over the long term of decades no-one can foresee anything).

Do you think the UK will benefit economically? And if so, how so? It seems clear that we are already poorer than we would have been had the vote gone the other way, but perhaps you have a different take on it?


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> I don't think I received an answer from you about this .


Yes, but few pages later, I refer to Overseas.


----------



## cheekyscrip

It is easy to get offended if you do not like what you read, but why would you not actually show me that I was wrong and Brexit will do great things for Britain, we will be better off and not vassals of USA, which is going backwards and will drag us into dangerous conflicts?

Or prove to me that being satellite of USA would be better than being part of EU?

I will not be offended if you could prove I am lying about Brexit or I am simply brainwashed by EU but facts prove me wrong.

Neither I think all real people who work in financial sector in Gibraltar ,Brits and not are brainwashed by EU, but all companies are preparing their transfer of at least part of business to EU jurisdiction or just go into general folding down and moving. Or closing operations here, end of.

Yes, I mean economy. I have to feed my family and animals.

I have to feed them now, few decades from now I would be dead.

This where communism went so wrong- wishful thinking does mean healthy economy, I am sure they meant well.

They ruined many countries, but many still believe Commies were right!!!

I lived all my youth in a country of lies, propaganda and sick economy .


I spent years taking serious risks to fight it.

Not the one to be brainwashed, but we are safer and better off in EU than depending on USA or in isolation.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jeremy Corbyn rules out second referendum


> *Jeremy Corbyn says 'ship has sailed' on UK remaining in EU as he rules out second referendum*
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn says 'ship has sailed' on UK remaining in EU as he rules out second referendum
> 
> The Labour leader ruled out another national poll on the terms of the UK's divorce from the EU, saying he had abandoned his party's hopes to "remain and reform" the bloc.



http://news.sky.com/story/amp/jerem...eu-as-he-rules-out-second-referendum-11226289


> When pressed on his party's stance, Mr Corbyn said: "We're not asking for a second referendum."
> 
> Asked directly "and you're not going to?" he replied: "No."



Mr Corbyn is basically adhering to what the MP's voted for during Parliaments transition of the EU Referendum bill which was to act upon the referendum result and respect the outcome of the referendum.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Jeremy Corbyn rules out second referendum
> 
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/amp/jerem...eu-as-he-rules-out-second-referendum-11226289
> 
> 
> Mr Corbyn is basically adhering to what the MP's voted for during Parliaments transition of the EU Referendum bill which was to act upon the referendum result and respect the outcome of the referendum.


Not surprised, he is s player.


----------



## Bisbow

If you have a time machine maybe I can borrow it

I have no idea what the future may bring any more than you do

It is easy to quote negative remarks about anything, proving them is a bit more difficult, it is all speculation on you part that we are doing to rack and ruin

I have faith in the British people who will fight for our success, pity you don't

I still believe we will be better off out than in, and I am NOT a fool; or liar


----------



## stockwellcat.

So both of the big parties in Parliament have said no to a second referendum. Thank god for that.

I still believe we will be better off outside of the EU and the sooner the Government cracks on with sorting our departure out the better. The sooner the UK severs ties with the EU the better and then the UK can get on with forming its own future.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Bisbow said:


> If you have a time machine maybe I can borrow it
> 
> I have no idea what the future may bring any more than you do
> 
> It is easy to quote negative remarks about anything, proving them is a bit more difficult, it is all speculation on you part that we are doing to rack and ruin
> 
> I have faith in the British people who will fight for our success, pity you don't
> 
> I still believe we will be better off out than in, and I am NOT a fool; or liar


I wish the optimism had any foundations?
Commies made many promises and many , many decades we were waiting for the promised land.
I have little faith in being isolated and not seeing how Britain on its own is in better position to get deals good for us - especially facing giants like USA, China, Russia, we are no longer " The Empire ".

Britain did not get poorer in EU, but richer.

Economy was growing regardless of austerity and the recovery form 2008 crisis was decent.
Those are facts.

I spent long time with other pf members, much more knowledgeable than I in presenting you the facts clearly stating why and how Britain will be worse off and you not a fool, but disregard all the evidence given?
What is yours?
Do not seem to recall much?
What exactly will make us stronger, safer and pay promised 350 mln a week to get ur coffers for NHS?
Or we are back to "blue passports, stamps and curved cucumbers " ?

Can anyone clearly state how custom tariffs and hard borders will make Britain better? 
Give us more freedom to go and live, work , travel, study wherever we choose. 
What of freedom of movement of goods and capital?
I must be stupid indeed if I do not see it improving?


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> If you have a time machine maybe I can borrow it
> 
> I have no idea what the future may bring any more than you do
> 
> It is easy to quote negative remarks about anything, proving them is a bit more difficult, it is all speculation on you part that we are doing to rack and ruin
> 
> I have faith in the British people who will fight for our success, pity you don't
> 
> I still believe we will be better off out than in, and I am NOT a fool; or liar


Sorry to be a pain, but was that in answer to my post?


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Jeremy Corbyn rules out second referendum
> 
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/amp/jerem...eu-as-he-rules-out-second-referendum-11226289
> 
> 
> Mr Corbyn is basically adhering to what the MP's voted for during Parliaments transition of the EU Referendum bill which was to act upon the referendum result and respect the outcome of the referendum.


Jeremy Corbyn lost my respect a long time ago. If Labour do badly in the local elections I see another leadership challenge becoming a possibility.



stockwellcat. said:


> So both of the big parties in Parliament have said no to a second referendum. Thank god for that.
> 
> I still believe we will be better off outside of the EU and the sooner the Government cracks on with sorting our departure out the better. The sooner the UK severs ties with the EU the better and then the UK can get on with forming its own future.


Why do you seem so frightened of another EU referendum? Surely the result could result in a landslide for leave on this occasion if it's going to be so good!

The public will know about leaving the SM and CU and the hard EU/UK border in Ireland. If they still choose Brexit then that will be that.

The UK is already forming its own future as an unofficial annex of the United States of America. Not my idea of the UK going it alone, especially if US corporations end up having a hand in UK concerns such as the NHS.

This to me personally is 10 times worse than leaving the EU. I'd rather they'd say the UK doesn't need the EU nor the USA in equal measures if they believe they can do it alone.


----------



## Bisbow

cheekyscrip said:


> Not surprised, he is s player.


Not long ago he could do no wrong he was good; he fought for the people

Now he is on the side of the majority he is a "player" I still don't like him

Back to the stupid blue passports and stamps

If that is as far as your nose will let you see I pity you

You have had many explanation and reasons, just look back in the different threads that you choose to ignore

I am not like you and keep repeating myself over and over again, I wonder who you are trying to convince, us or yourself


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> So both of the big parties in Parliament have said no to a second referendum. Thank god for that.
> 
> I still believe we will be better off outside of the EU and the sooner the Government cracks on with sorting our departure out the better. The sooner the UK severs ties with the EU the better and then the UK can get on with forming its own future.


Let's see what they are saying 9 months from now. It may be harder for them by then to ignore the will of the people.

I know you are optimistic for the UK's future, but it would be nice to see some economic theory backing it up. Could you share the logic that makes you so hopeful?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Bisbow said:


> Not long ago he could do no wrong he was good; he fought for the people
> 
> Now he is on the side of the majority he is a "player" I still don't like him
> 
> Back to the stupid blue passports and stamps
> 
> If that is as far as your nose will let you see I pity you
> 
> You have had many explanation and reasons, just look back in the different threads that you choose to ignore
> 
> I am not like you and keep repeating myself over and over again, I wonder who you are trying to convince, us or yourself


Never been convinced by Corbyn. I made threads about him, not his supporter ever.

Any chance of small recap why Brexit will benefit UK?

I tried to find any posts stating it, but in vain?
I mean something like facts, evidence? Brexit plan maybe?


----------



## Bisbow

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry to be a pain, but was that in answer to my post?


No. I am not wasting my time just to be ignored or ridiculed


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Let's see what they are saying 9 months from now. It may be harder for them by then to ignore the will of the people.
> 
> I know you are optimistic for the UK's future, but it would be nice to see some economic theory backing it up. Could you share the logic that makes you so hopeful?


Sure. But I am not repeating this. Outside of the EU there is something called the rest of the world. Trading wise the world is moving faster than the EU which coincidently is slowing down (the EU that is). Regardless if we get a deal with the EU or not, the EU are preparing for a no deal and the UK negotiators are behind the scenes and so is Whitehall. Will the UK survive from a no deal situation? Well yes of course it will, we'll continue trading with the EU either way. GDP with the rest of the world is increasing the EU's GDP is declining.

But as I said above I am not repeating myself, so if you do not understand what I have said, then tough.

We will be better off out of the EU.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Whoops sorry here's a couple of charts.
Lets look at the economies outside of the EU and add them up if the UK had trade deals with them which the EU currently doesn't have.








Add USA, China, India and others together and economically we'd be larger than the EU.

The figures above are from 2017.









Again all countries outside of the EU added up make the GDP larger than the EU. But in saying this just one trade deal with USA will make us in a block larger than the EU.

Figures again are from 2017.


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> No. I am not wasting my time just to be ignored or ridiculed


I try not to ignore or ridicule anyone, but if that's the way you feel ...

It's just that I haven't seen any analysis*, by leavers or remainers that suggests we will be economically better off in the short or medium term without some heroically optimistic assumptions about the negotiations or future trade deals, and I wondered if you had something different.

* There was a piece by Minford who reckoned we'd be about £700 billion better off, but I couldn't find his calculations anywhere, and no-one really took him seriously.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Yes, but few pages later, I refer to Overseas.


Well that explains everything ! 

D o I have to trawl back ? 
Can you just tell me here , i know its complicated but I just want to know when did the 25% tax if you are domiciled in the UK you mentioned start ( roughly ) and was it because of Brexit .


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I try not to ignore or ridicule anyone, but if that's the way you feel ...
> 
> It's just that I haven't seen any analysis*, by leavers or remainers that suggests we will be economically better off in the short or medium term without some heroically optimistic assumptions about the negotiations or future trade deals, and I wondered if you had something different.
> 
> * There was a piece by Minford who reckoned we'd be about £700 billion better off, but I couldn't find his calculations anywhere, and no-one really took him seriously.


Now your nit picking.

Sit back and enjoy the next 9 months as we head forward to leaving the EU. 2 scenarios are on the table. Deal or no deal. Neither Labour or the Conservative leaders are looking to hold a 2nd referendum so that's that out of the window. The facts as to why is posted further back in the post by me.


----------



## Zaros

I see no good reason why you should be banned, Scrippy. You're quite the tolerant one. Open to many and most things.

Except the secret advances hidden within my many texts of course.

The more time I spend reading these controversial political threads, the more I am able to recognise and identify the truly fractious individuals who, it would seem, can't see further than the end of their noses which, they are afraid, might be put out of joint when the harsh truth, whatever that may be, eventually reveals itself.

The side show that America is at present, is not and never will be Britain's saviour.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Sure. But I am not repeating this. Outside of the EU there is something called the rest of the world. Trading wise the world is moving faster than the EU which coincidently is slowing down (the EU that is). Regardless if we get a deal with the EU or not, the EU are preparing for a no deal and the UK negotiators are behind the scenes and so is Whitehall. Will the UK survive from a no deal situation? Well yes of course it will, we'll continue trading with the EU either way. GDP with the rest of the world is increasing the EU's GDP is declining.
> 
> But as I said above I am not repeating myself, so if you do not understand what I have said, then tough.
> 
> We will be better off out of the EU.


Nicely put, but I think I do understand. One quick factual point; the EU's GDP is not declining. It is growing, and at a faster rate than the UK's.

Perhaps it is all a matter of optimism v. pessimism, but looking at what you say ...

Your hopes are obviously pinned on trade deals with the US and China, but let's stick with the USA to keep this short-ish.

A quote from the EU might help:

Given the low average tariffs [between EU and US] (under 3%), the key to unlocking this [trade] potential lies in the tackling of non-tariff barriers. These consist mainly of customs procedures and behind the border regulatory restrictions.

The non-tariff barriers come from diverging regulatory systems (standards definitions notably), but also other non-tariff measures, such as those related to certain aspects of security or consumer protection.​
So to increase trade we have to adjust the demands that were made by the EU during the TTIP negotiations, so that we are more aligned with the US. That in itself strikes me as 
- potentially problematic - do we want chlorinated chicken, GM food etc, and US consumer protection standards ('cos they won't change to suit us!)
- a lengthy process - TTIP negotiations started nearly 5 years ago and are not finished, let alone implemented (itself a multi-year process)
- unlikely to favour the UK - the US is much larger than us (which is what counts in trade negotiations), currently protectionist, and Trump is in charge​
But let's assume that we do agree to change our standards etc.

We would no longer be aligned with the EU. (Which is what some Tories want anyway.)

Therefore our exports to the EU would not only be reduced, but the ones they did allow would have to go through customs checks. That slows down the whole process of trade and increases its cost.

That reduces profits.

That reduces tax revenue.

& that means the UK is worse off, and cannot give loads of money to the NHS.

(And, incidentally, it means a hard border in Ireland, or splitting NI away from the UK.)

So to increase trade with the US, assuming we'd swallow what they demand, we would decrease trade with the EU and increase the costs. To benefit overall we would have to increase trade with them by one hell of a lot. Is that feasible when even now we only have an average 3% tariff?

And in the intervening period while we're 'negotiating', what happens to UK business? Our growth has already slowed since the vote in the midst of a global boom.

As I say, maybe it's pessimism on my part, and your mapping of the road to the sunny uplands is more realistic. But I don't see how we can hope to win economically for at least the next 15 years, especially as we first have to make up lost ground.

Feel free to point out where you disagree. Where do we differ in the above analysis that leads you to state that "We will be better off out of the EU"?

If you have valid and material points that I've not considered, then I will certainly factor them in to what I think.


----------



## Arnie83

Arnie83 said:


> I try not to ignore or ridicule anyone, but if that's the way you feel ...
> 
> It's just that I haven't seen any analysis*, by leavers or remainers that suggests we will be economically better off in the short or medium term without some heroically optimistic assumptions about the negotiations or future trade deals, and I wondered if you had something different.
> 
> * There was a piece by Minford who reckoned we'd be about £700 billion better off, but I couldn't find his calculations anywhere, and no-one really took him seriously.





stockwellcat. said:


> Now your nit picking.


Excuse me, but where was I nit-picking in my response to @Bisbow ?


----------



## Arnie83

The EU concluded a trade deal with Japan at the end of 2016.

We can of course insist on what we consider "good quality goods and healthy food", but if our definition doesn't agree with that of the USA or China, they aren't going to change just to please us. We're not the ones with financial clout and a huge market. Ergo; no trade deal. Or a limited one at best.

It may sound like pessimism, or doom-mongering, but it is economic reality.

We either accept, e.g. chlorine washed chicken, or there's no deal.

I'm afraid that to think we can just substitute the US or China for the EU is cloud-cuckoo land, despite what the reliable Boris tells us. It simply isn't going to happen. I wish people would stop believing the nonsense without actually looking at the reality behind the claims.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Whoops sorry here's a couple of charts.
> Lets look at the economies outside of the EU and add them up if the UK had trade deals with them which the EU currently doesn't have.
> View attachment 343361
> 
> Add USA, China, India and others together and economically we'd be larger than the EU.
> 
> The figures above are from 2017.
> 
> View attachment 343362
> 
> Again all countries outside of the EU added up make the GDP larger than the EU. But in saying this just one trade deal with USA will make us in a block larger than the EU.
> 
> Figures again are from 2017.


Where does state our deals with those on WTO rules would be better that deals we have as a part of EU?
How you are going to convince me that say 500mln strong bloc has less negotiating power than 70mln dealing with USA or China?
Why other countries are forming more trading blocs?
Yes, you proved the point that there are more countries out of EU than in EU. I punto.

Now tell me how NI and Gibraltar would cope with hard borders.


----------



## Elles

No one has to accept bleached chicken. Can no one make their own choices? If you eat bleached chicken, on your head be it, it’s absolutely nothing to do with the government, or anyone else. We don’t have to buy it and if we don’t buy it, they can’t sell it and there’s no point in it being any part of any trade deal. If people want to stuff their faces with dead animals and take no interest in how it was prepared or treated, it’s up to them. Majority rule. 

If we don’t want it, we let our representatives know and if they ignore the majority, it’ll be goodbye May, hello Jeremy. I don’t expect to substitute the Eu for anything. We’ll still trade with Europe, I don’t doubt it. Just not as a member of their exclusive club.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> No one has to accept bleached chicken. Can no one make their own choices? If you eat bleached chicken, on your head be it, it's absolutely nothing to do with the government, or anyone else. We don't have to buy it and if we don't buy it, they can't sell it and there's no point in it being any part of any trade deal. If people want to stuff their faces with dead animals and take no interest in how it was prepared or treated, it's up to them. Majority rule.
> 
> If we don't want it, we let our representatives know and if they ignore the majority, it'll be goodbye May, hello Jeremy. I don't expect to substitute the Eu for anything. We'll still trade with Europe, I don't doubt it. Just not as a member of their exclusive club.


Why have standards at all then? If people want to consume low standard products, or potentially unsafe products, that's up to them!

Let the products in, though, and some (probably many) will be cheaper than home-produced equivalents because they don't have to meet the same standards as our producers do. Is that fair? Or do we drop our own standards?

And of course we will trade with the EU. But not as much, and not as profitably. The substitution must cover that drop in trade & profits or the country will be worse off.


----------



## Guest

We do lots of business with Japan, America and China and we are in EU. I don´t understand this quote at all, sorry. Why would´t the remainers want to do business with them, as UK is already doing business with them while in EU as much as UK is able to do? Doing business with them is just a bit easier while in EU, that´s all.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Whoops sorry here's a couple of charts.


So we throw away a lot of the markets we have so we can trade with say America which is pushing a policy of "America First". We throw out not only the single market but also 40+ other trade arrangements. We end up with purely WTO rules, which we are already trading under to those countries like America. Not as though it's a new market we can suddenly sell to is it. So tell me what advantages are there to having an American trade deal rather than the EU single market? That's forgetting that a lot of foreign countries have invested in the UK as a gateway to the EU. In fact we've advertised ourselves as that in the past.



> Add USA, China, India and others together and economically we'd be larger than the EU.


No, we'd simply be trading with countries we already trade with. Places like India by the way has a unilateral trade preference agreement with the EU, which we will lose.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> No one has to accept bleached chicken. Can no one make their own choices? If you eat bleached chicken, on your head be it, it's absolutely nothing to do with the government, or anyone else. We don't have to buy it and if we don't buy it, they can't sell it and there's no point in it being any part of any trade deal. If people want to stuff their faces with dead animals and take no interest in how it was prepared or treated, it's up to them. Majority rule.
> 
> If we don't want it, we let our representatives know and if they ignore the majority, it'll be goodbye May, hello Jeremy. I don't expect to substitute the Eu for anything. We'll still trade with Europe, I don't doubt it. Just not as a member of their exclusive club.


Using your argument perhaps you think people should be asked to work with asbestos again and take responsibility for any ill effects from that.

The UK already has trade deals with the countries in question as part of the EU. Why people think the UK alone would do better alone is anyone's guess. It will enable standards well below EU regulations to be accepted if they want one up on the rest of Europe.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> The UK already has trade deals with the countries in question as part of the EU. *Why people think the UK alone would do better alone is anyone's guess.* It will enable standards well below EU regulations to be accepted if they want one up on the rest of Europe.


This always makes me wonder, too.

We have dozens of trade agreements as part of the EU, and even Liam Fox is just 'hoping' that we can 'roll them over' when we leave. But why should any one of those countries be happy to do so when - since we're a fifth the size of the EU - there is an opportunity to get a better deal? Would they not owe it to their voters to do just that?

I'm sure most won't, but it's easy to see where we might well end up with something worse than what we have now.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> No one has to accept bleached chicken. Can no one make their own choices? If you eat bleached chicken, on your head be it, it's absolutely nothing to do with the government, or anyone else. We don't have to buy it and if we don't buy it, they can't sell it and there's no point in it being any part of any trade deal. If people want to stuff their faces with dead animals and take no interest in how it was prepared or treated, it's up to them..


So tell me how people are supposed to know it's bleached chicken if we don't have standards? You do realize simple things like labelling are standards set to enable people to make informed choices. What happens when people do not have access to factual information allowing them to make informed choices? Normally something bad happens and they're likely to fall for things like marketing slogans or use things like price as a guide.

Of course following that you can look at the mentality difference between the EU/UK and the USA. Over simplification but EU/UK it's prove something is safe before selling. USA it's sell until you get sued or it's proven dangerous.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 343476
> View attachment 343478


Isn't "Make me an offer" what Merkel said to the SDP ?  Has she actually managed to from a Government yet , Its been more than three months


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Isn't "Make me an offer" what Merkel said to the SDP ?  Has she actually managed to from a Government yet , Its been more than three months


As far as I know Merkel and the SDP have agreed to from a coalition.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> As far as I know Merkel and the SDP have agreed to from a coalition.


 It looks like they have made a start ,
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...us-green-light-to-coalition-talks-with-merkel

"Germany has inched a step closer to forming a new government after the centre-left Social Democratic party (SPD) gave its lukewarm endorsement for a renewed Angela Merkel-led "grand coalition".

At a special SPD congress in Bonn that welcomed a speech by the party's leader, Martin Schulz, with sarcastic applause and saw standing ovations for his fiercest critics, 56% of the party's delegates voted in favour of moving on to the second and final stage of coalition talks with Merkel's centre-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU).

The cautious green light provides major relief not just for the beleaguered leaders of Germany's two largest parties but also European heads of government, who have been holding off on major strategic decisions since federal elections in September. "

The BBC said it was her partys worst result for 50 years !

Seems a war is brewing between the EU and Trump according to Bloomburg

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-trump-if-you-want-a-trade-war-you-ll-get-one
The European Union gave President Donald Trump a fresh warning about any U.S. curbs on imports from Europe by pledging rapid retaliation, highlighting the persistent risk of a trans-Atlantic trade war.

The EU fired the shot across the U.S. bow after Trump said in an interview with ITV broadcast over the weekend that he has "a lot of problems with the European Union." This "may morph into something very big" from "a trade standpoint," he said.


----------



## Arnie83

So Trump - with his America First mantra - pulls out of TPP, calls NAFTA a terrible deal, supported the Bombardier tariffs, wants tarrifs on Chinese and Mexican goods, and now threatens a trade war with the EU.

But after Brexit, he's going to give us a beautiful trade deal that makes up for what we lose from EU trade restriction and increased costs.

Excuse my cynicism, but he's a hell of a basket (case) to put all our eggs in!


----------



## kimthecat

Lets hope he's gone by the time we leave. We cant make any trade deals in the transition period Barnier said .
How come the US is doing well with him in charge


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Lets hope he's gone by the time we leave. We cant make any trade deals in the transition period Barnier said .
> How come the US is doing well with him in charge


I don't think the EU said that they didn't want us to negotiate deals, just that we could implement them. Mind you, whether anyone will want to negotiate before we know our final deal with the EU is another matter.

As for your last point: the US has been doing increasingly well for quite a few years and in part this is just a continuation of the trend; the world is having itself a bit on an economic boom (except the UK) and the US is benefiting (though to be fair they have contributed to it); and Trump's tax cuts are a monetary stimulus to business which will (and is) boost the economy. However; a lot of economists (including me in my own little way) think it will be relatively short-lived. Its success depends on trickle-down economics, which has really never worked. It tends just to make the rich richer. People like Trump, oddly enough.


----------



## stockwellcat.

The vultures are circling Theresa May within her own party. Both leave and remain Conservative MP's are threatening a leadership challenge. Her days maybe numbered. Jacob Rees Mogg is tipped as her successor as he is leading the rebellion and is the parties favourite to succeed her.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> The vultures are circling Theresa May within her own party. Both leave and remain Conservative MP's are threatening a leadership challenge. Her days maybe numbered. Jacob Rees Mogg is tipped as her successor as he is leading the rebellion and is the parties favourite to succeed her.


Hope not. I like moggies, but nothing called Mogg sounds promising. Anyhow do not see anyone with potential except Ruth Davidson in Tory store. 
Seems politicians with brains and charisma are really scarce nowadays, but plenty , plenty of muppets and bogeymen.


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Hope not. I like moggies, but nothing called Mogg sounds promising. Anyhow do not see anyone with potential except Ruth Davidson in Tory store.
> Seems politicians with brains and charisma are really scarce nowadays, but plenty , plenty of muppets and bogeymen.


Well I see today Gibraltar has a veto in its consitution and can veto any part of the deal the UK gets which could send the UK negotiators back to the negotiating table if there is something Gibraltar doesn't like in the deal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gibraltar-brexit-veto-theresa-may-eu-deal-terms-chief-minister-fabian-picardo-spain-border-a8183946.html?amp


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Remainers don't want to trade with places like America, Japan and China. They think we'll be ripped off at best and probably poisoned. We'll be force fed bleached chicken, especially if we're poor and don't know any better and the Chinese are mean, they undercut everyone with poor quality goods and now they won't even take our plastic.
> 
> Of course our government can insist on good quality goods and healthy food, but then what will the privatised nhs have to treat?
> 
> We're all doomed.





Elles said:


> No one has to accept bleached chicken. Can no one make their own choices? If you eat bleached chicken, on your head be it, it's absolutely nothing to do with the government, or anyone else. We don't have to buy it and if we don't buy it, they can't sell it and there's no point in it being any part of any trade deal. If people want to stuff their faces with dead animals and take no interest in how it was prepared or treated, it's up to them. Majority rule.
> 
> If we don't want it, we let our representatives know and if they ignore the majority, it'll be goodbye May, hello Jeremy. I don't expect to substitute the Eu for anything. We'll still trade with Europe, I don't doubt it. Just not as a member of their exclusive club.


Your posts are proof how uninformed many people are. Outside the EU we are small fry, we don't get to dictate. And in case you hadn't noticed the leave tories/ukippers are desperate to torch all that EU red tape which protects us & our environment from greedy corporate interests. We can only trade with the EU if our standards are on par with theirs so unlikely if we get hitched to the US - & obviously if we still do some trade with the EU we could never have as good a deal as we have now.

This is what a US-UK trade deal would look like.








kimthecat said:


> Lets hope he's gone by the time we leave. We cant make any trade deals in the transition period Barnier said .
> How come the US is doing well with him in charge


It wont matter who's President - once we're locked into a deal with corporate America our country will be ravaged & there wont be a thing we can do about it. Corporate interests may even be able to sue our government if they don't make profit ( like the tories,Donald Trump is a pathological liar who does not represent ordinary people. So when he says the US is doing well with him in charge - he really means the billionaire class & giant corporations are doing well )

Another reminder why key brexiters are desperate to drag us out of the EU.


----------



## cheekyscrip

stockwellcat. said:


> Well I see today Gibraltar has a veto in its consitution and can veti any part of the deal the UK gets which could send the UK negotiators back to the negotiating table if there is something Gibraltar doesn't like in the deal.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gibraltar-brexit-veto-theresa-may-eu-deal-terms-chief-minister-fabian-picardo-spain-border-a8183946.html?amp


Picardo said...:Hilarious will that stop the hard border? Today Spain closed access to Gibraltar- due to strong winds!!!


----------



## stockwellcat.

cheekyscrip said:


> Picardo said...:Hilarious will that stop the hard border? Today Spain closed access to Gibraltar- due to strong winds!!!


Well you'd have to take their word for that. High winds do tend to have an impact on things even over here.  The Spainards maybe preparing Gibraltar for a Jacob Rees Mogg brexit.


----------



## noushka05

Hope you brexiters on here got what you voted for. Apparently we're a 'vassal state' now

So much for 'taking our country back', hey.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Hope you brexiters on here got what you voted for. Apparently we're a 'vassal state' now
> 
> So much for 'taking our country back', hey.


No I am not happy. I won't be happy until Theresa May is ousted which is likely to happen very soon and JRM takes over and delivers what the Brexitiers voted for. Brexit.

Theresa May has run out of steam and that has been evident in Davos. It's time for her to step down and let someone else to deliver a propper Brexit to stop the UK becoming a vassel state. JRM predicted that the EU would intend on making the UK a vassel state post Brexit under Theresa May, he is now tipped to win a leadership challenge against Theresa May and is leading a rebellion against her and both remain and leave MP's in the Conservatives are wanting a leadership challenge, effectively a coup against Theresa May.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> No I am not happy. I won't be happy until Theresa May is ousted which is likely to happen very soon and JRM takes over and delivers what the Brexitiers voted for. Brexit.


Yes I know you want brexit whatever the cost SWC. And it will be the hardest brexit so the highest cost if Mogg ousts May. We will definitely lose our NHS & all those regulations which protect us, animals, the environment, workers, food safety & so on. But for what gain? 

Mogg is an authoritarian, an extremist, even more so than our current 'leader' - he doesn't represent the masses. It baffles me to see so many ordinary people supporting him  Why don't they just check out his voting history?? He is going to screw us all into the ground.

Have you seen what this multi-millionaire charlatan has been wasting tax payers money on?
*
MPs demand 'urgent investigation' into Cabinet ministers' support for hard-Brexit lobby group *

*Tory ministers have used taxpayer cash to fund a secretive hard-Brexit pressure group, now led by outspoken government critic Jacob Rees-Mogg
*
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/tory-ministers-taxpayer-cash-hard-Brexit-erg


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> No I am not happy. I won't be happy until Theresa May is ousted which is likely to happen very soon and JRM takes over and delivers what the Brexitiers voted for. Brexit.
> 
> Theresa May has run out of steam and that has been evident in Davos. It's time for her to step down and let someone else to deliver a propper Brexit to stop the UK becoming a vassel state. JRM predicted that the EU would intend on making the UK a vassel state post Brexit under Theresa May, he is now tipped to win a leadership challenge against Theresa May and is leading a rebellion against her and both remain and leave MP's in the Conservatives are wanting a leadership challenge, effectively a coup against Theresa May.


We'll just become a vassal state to the USA, SWC.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Yes I know you want brexit whatever the cost SWC. And it will be the hardest brexit so the highest cost if Mogg ousts May. We will definitely lose our NHS & all those regulations which protect us, animals, the environment, workers, food safety & so on. But for what gain?
> 
> Mogg is an authoritarian, an extremist, even more so than our current 'leader' - he doesn't represent the masses. It baffles me to see so many ordinary people supporting him  Why don't they just check out his voting history?? He is going to screw us all into the ground.
> 
> Have you seen what this multi-millionaire charlatan has been wasting tax payers money on?
> *
> MPs demand 'urgent investigation' into Cabinet ministers' support for hard-Brexit lobby group*
> 
> *Tory ministers have used taxpayer cash to fund a secretive hard-Brexit pressure group, now led by outspoken government critic Jacob Rees-Mogg
> *
> https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/tory-ministers-taxpayer-cash-hard-Brexit-erg


If there is a leadership challenge Joe Public don't get to vote. MP's try to solve it first inside their party in this case the Conservatives and if they fail then the Party members (members of the public that are conservative party members that pay for membership) get to vote. This doesn't go to a general public poll.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> No I am not happy. I won't be happy until Theresa May is ousted which is likely to happen very soon and JRM takes over and delivers what the Brexitiers voted for. Brexit.
> 
> Theresa May has run out of steam and that has been evident in Davos. It's time for her to step down and let someone else to deliver a propper Brexit to stop the UK becoming a vassel state. JRM predicted that the EU would intend on making the UK a vassel state post Brexit under Theresa May, he is now tipped to win a leadership challenge against Theresa May and is leading a rebellion against her and both remain and leave MP's in the Conservatives are wanting a leadership challenge, effectively a coup against Theresa May.


No-one else is going to do any better, though - it's not like they will have any more cards to play or garner any more respect. It's Brexit, not the political failings, that leaves us in the position of vassal state - whether that means to the USA or the EU (the latter would be infinitely preferable given the US approach to business) has yet to be decided, but that's about it. Outside possibility of China, I suppose, too.

So sure,why not take another few weeks out for a leadership battle - that's sure to convince the rest of the world we're a unitted country and know what we're doing, right?


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 343566


Well the option is there if you don't like it. Many are doing it. Migrate to another European country.

The thing is, and the EU has admitted this, the impact of Brexit is going to hit the EU as bad as the UK.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> No-one else is going to do any better, though - it's not like they will have any more cards to play or garner any more respect. It's Brexit, not the political failings, that leaves us in the position of vassal state - whether that means to the USA or the EU (the latter would be infinitely preferable given the US approach to business) has yet to be decided, but that's about it. Outside possibility of China, I suppose, too.
> 
> So sure,why not take another few weeks out for a leadership battle - that's sure to convince the rest of the world we're a unitted country and know what we're doing, right?


The UK can still walk away from the negotiations. The EU aren't prepared to give the UK a fair deal and instead punish the UK by turning it into a vassal state. The time has come to stop pussy footing around and leave. If we severed ties then thw UK could forge its own future.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> The UK can still walk away from the negotiations. The EU aren't prepared to give the UK a fair deal and instead punish the UK by turning it into a vassal state. The time has come to stop pussy footing around and leave.


Ah, so you'd rather be a vassal state to the whole world, then


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Ah, so you'd rather be a vassal state to the whole world, then


The UK wouldn't be a vassal state to the whole world though would it. The EU are making it virtually impossible for a deal to be made without the UK remaining in the EU. Errm this was not voted for on the 23rd June 2016. My ballot sheet if I remember said Leave or Remain.

Time to wave the Union Jack and close the door on the EU.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> No I am not happy. I won't be happy until Theresa May is ousted which is likely to happen very soon and JRM takes over and delivers what the Brexitiers voted for. Brexit.


There is no definition of Brexit which people voted for. There's your definition of it but that is not what everyone who voted to leave voted for. Your definition has also changed even on the brexit threads.

As for May being ousted.. thought you believed in democracy. May's party was voted in through a general election with her as a leader. Anyone else has even less of a mandate.

What would you classify as fair by the way. The EU stated their position from the start. No membership perks without membership. Sounds obvious and fair to me. That is what you voted for after all. You still haven't provided credible advantages to additional red tape, chaos and customs, NI hard border etc which you are pushing for as though it's a good thing. Oh we can have a trade deal with America.. yet cannot explain how it would be better than preferential trading with our closest trading partners who share common standards etc.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Theresa May's problem is that her failings go far beyond Brexit and her party know it. 48 signatures is all that are needed to trigger a leadership challenge. Both remainer and leaver MP's are threatening to put their signatures on a letter to the 1922 committee to oust Theresa May. Ditching Theresa May and her Cabinet will not alter the course of Brexit it will make it more likely to happen if JRM got in or a leave voting MP. They believe that more than 50 signatures can be achieved to trigger a leadership challenge within the Conservative party, which is more than what is needed. I did say a while back that I do not think Theresa May will be the one to deliver Brexit.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> The UK wouldn't be a vassal state to the whole world though would it. The EU are making it virtually impossible for a deal to be made without the UK remaining in the EU. Errm this was not voted for on the 23rd June 2016. My ballot sheet if I remember said Leave or Remain.


Yes, leave the EU.

Problem is, no-one thought it worth clarifying beforehand if that just meant the actual EU itself, or the EU plus anything related to the EU, such as the Single Market, Customs Union, etc. I know you have your own idea of what you thought leave meant (and that this has changed, too), but then again so did everyone else. Because lets face it, if everyone had had the same definition of Brexit in mind, then there would never have been any debate over hard/soft/scrambled/fried/poached Brexit as everyone would have known perfectly well what 'leave' meant before the vote. That's not moaning or complaining, that's just hard, cold logic.

As it is, one of the things that we absolutely definitively knew before the vote was that if Article 50 was triggered, the EU held all the negotiation cards. So I have no idea why this is coming as such a shock to anyone...


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Yes, leave the EU.
> 
> Problem is, no-one thought it worth clarifying beforehand if that just meant the actual EU itself, or the EU plus anything related to the EU, such as the Single Market, Customs Union, etc. I know you have your own idea of what you thought leave meant (and that this has changed, too), but then again so did everyone else. Because lets face it, if everyone had had the same definition of Brexit in mind, then there would never have been any debate over hard/soft/scrambled/fried/poached Brexit as everyone would have known perfectly well what 'leave' meant before the vote. That's not moaning or complaining, that's just hard, cold logic.
> 
> As it is, one of the things that we absolutely definitively knew before the vote was that if Article 50 was triggered, the EU held all the negotiation cards. So I have no idea why this is coming as such a shock to anyone...


The actual word leave means to leave something not remain in it. So since when does the word need defining or clarifying as the word itself means to leave and not be part of.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> The actual word leave means to leave something not remain in it. So since when does the word need defining or clarifying as the word itself means to leave and not be part of.


And as I was pointing out, it is not what the word 'leave' means that needed defining, it was the phrase 'EU'


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> And as I was pointing out, it is not what the word 'leave' means that needed defining, it was the phrase 'EU'


Well I like 17.4 million other people plus 16 odd million that voted the other way answered the same question on the 23rd June 2016. I like many others did not expect this process to take so long on the basis leave meant as defined above. The problem we have is that remainer May is trying to negotiate something that the EU will not allow the UK to have and wasted UK tax payers money. If Cameron kept his word we'd be out of the EU now instead he chickened out and ran away from his responsibilities. Cameron promised to act upon the result the next day (24th June 2016) regardless of the result.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> Well I like 17.4 million other people plus 16 odd million that voted the other way answered the same question on the 23rd June 2016. I like many others did not expect this process to take so long on the basis leave meant as defined above. The problem we have is that remainer May is trying to negotiate something that the EU will not allow the UK to have and wasted UK tax payers money. If Cameron kept his word we'd be out of the EU now instead he chickened out and ran away from his responsibilities. Cameron promised to act upon the result the next day (24th June 2016) regardless of the result.


Yes, leave means leave. We've heard that one to death from many sources.

Now, back to the question - define 'EU'?


----------



## Snow white

Jesthar said:


> Now, back to the question - define 'EU'?


Take it this,is a game, can anyone join in?
Evidently useless maybe


----------



## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Yes, leave means leave. We've heard that one to death from many sources.
> 
> Now, back to the question - define 'EU'?


After you define leave and get the meaning correct and not provide a warped interpretation of the word leave.


----------



## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> After you define leave and get the meaning correct and not provide a warped interpretation of the word leave.


But that's it, there isn't a problem with defining the word leave. There never HAS been. The dictionary definition is just fine.

Which is exactly why the phrase "leave means leave" is so meaningless, as the problem has never been with the definition of the word leave, and has always been in the definition of what, exactly, we are supposed to be leaving.


----------



## kimthecat

<sigh>

Ain't no love ting here, it's just one big cycle here,
Ain't no friendship here it's just one big cycle here.
Round, round, round we go
Round, round, round we go
Round, round, round we go
If you love me let me no
Round, round, round we go
Round, round, round we go
Round, round, round we go
If you love me let me no


----------



## kimthecat

Youthquake a myth !

http://www.britishelectionstudy.com...of-the-2017-youthquake-election/#.Wm_Ao6LLg2w

In the wake of the surprise outcome of the 2017 election people began to look for an explanation for Labour's unexpectedly good performance. One explanation quickly became prominent: Jeremy Corbyn had mobilised previously disengaged young voters, who had turned out in droves to vote Labour.

This claim is largely based on anecdotes. Corbyn appears to be particularly popular amongst the young, often photographed surrounded by young people. Chants of 'oh Jeremy Corbyn' echoed around the Glastonbury festival, and Labour's social media strategy is cited as energising young voters in droves.

[Edited]

In order to find out what really happened in the election, pollsters and academics have been waiting for the turnout figures from the British Election Study (BES). Using the newly released BES data, we analyse the relationship between age and turnout at the 2015 and 2017 elections in a new paper. Below, we graph the relationship between age and turnout in 2015 and 2017. In both elections, older people are much more likely to have voted than young people and the age-turnout relationship barely changed between 2015 and 2017. The shaded grey areas represent the margin of error that surrounds the estimated level of turnout at each age. There is no evidence of a surge in voter turnout amongst the youngest eligible voters (indeed turnout in the youngest age group is actually slightly _lower _in our 2017 survey).


----------



## KittenKong

Seems even some hard Brexit backers are preparing for the crash.
https://www.timesofmalta.com/mobile...-supporter-obtains-maltese-passport-ft.669224

Damn right hypocritical if you ask me!

Definitely a case of, "Do what I say not do as I do"


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> No I am not happy. I won't be happy until Theresa May is ousted which is likely to happen very soon and JRM takes over and delivers what the Brexitiers voted for. Brexit.
> 
> Theresa May has run out of steam and that has been evident in Davos. It's time for her to step down and let someone else to deliver a propper Brexit to stop the UK becoming a vassel state. JRM predicted that the EU would intend on making the UK a vassel state post Brexit under Theresa May, he is now tipped to win a leadership challenge against Theresa May and is leading a rebellion against her and both remain and leave MP's in the Conservatives are wanting a leadership challenge, effectively a coup against Theresa May.


To think the Brexit process was delayed by calling an unnecessary General Election last year a leadership challenge is the last thing this government needs. It hardly gives the impression of a stable,(perhaps I should say Strong and Stable), country that knows what it wants to the big bad world they desire to conquer with amazing trade deals and the likes.

Yes, I too would love to see a leadership challenge against May. I doubt Mogg would gain the support of most of the party however.

You only have to look at history how the Tory Party, and Labour too to a lesser extent, have been divided over the issue of Europe.

The referendum was supposed to end that. It's only made it a damn sight worse.


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Hope you brexiters on here got what you voted for. Apparently we're a 'vassal state' now


Wait a minute!

The UK has always been a vassal state.

As we appear to be asking for definitions of this, that, and all and sundry, then the definition of a *vassal state* is as follows;

_A *vassal state* is any *state* that is subordinate to another. ... Being a *vassal* most commonly implies providing military assistance to the dominant *state* when requested to do so._

Now, would someone like to tell me exactly how many times British citizens have been sacrificed/thrown/fed into America's indefatigable war machine?:Wacky


----------



## Arnie83

Arnie83 said:


> *I don't see how we can hope to win economically for at least the next 15 years*, especially as we first have to make up lost ground.


And here we are ...

*Any Brexit deal will hit UK economy - government paper*

The UK economy will grow more slowly outside the European Union, no matter what deal is struck with Brussels, a leaked government document suggests.

The BuzzFeed News website reports the Whitehall analysis found *growth over the next 15 years could be up to 8% lower than if the UK stayed in the EU.*​
No doubt they're scaremongers, or experts that we can ignore ...

But is this what the Leavers voted for?

What this means is that had we remained - or if we change our minds and do so - then, and only then, will there be more money for the NHS.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Wait a minute!
> 
> The UK has always been a vassal state.
> 
> As we appear to be asking for definitions of this, that, and all and sundry, then the definition of a *vassal state* is as follows;
> 
> _A *vassal state* is any *state* that is subordinate to another. ... Being a *vassal* most commonly implies providing military assistance to the dominant *state* when requested to do so._
> 
> Now, would someone like to tell me exactly how many times British citizens have been sacrificed/thrown/fed into America's indefatigable war machine?:Wacky



That is so true and soon the US is going to have free reign to actually plunder the UK too. 











Leavers who believed the EU controlled us are going to be in for an almighty shock when project fear becomes reality.

No words.......

*Jim Waterson*‏Verified [email protected]*jimwaterson* 9h9 hours ago

_BuzzFeed has been leaked the government's latest internal Brexit impact analysis. It shows the UK being worse off under every modelled scenario.
Ministers were supposed to be shown it in secret
but you can read it for yourself here_: https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonar...the-uk-will-be?utm_term=.nkXRw8WvE#.mmZ4k0bdw

Asked why the prime minister was not making the analysis public, a DExEU source told BuzzFeed News: _*"Because it's embarrassing."*_
Too late: https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/the-governments-own-brexit-analysis-says-the-uk-will-be?utm_term=.bb7GYDR1Z#.jv79lx5p6…










_The government's leaked Brexit analysis was due to be shown to cabinet ministers in the presence of top civil servants - with all copies collected afterwards to ensure nothing damaging leaked to the media, _@*SamCoatesTimes* _reported yesterday._ https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brexiteers-unite-to-discredithammond-9w9xz3wjk…


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Well I like 17.4 million other people plus 16 odd million that voted the other way answered the same question on the 23rd June 2016. I like many others did not expect this process to take so long on the basis leave meant as defined above. The problem we have is that remainer May is trying to negotiate something that the EU will not allow the UK to have and wasted UK tax payers money. If Cameron kept his word we'd be out of the EU now instead he chickened out and ran away from his responsibilities. Cameron promised to act upon the result the next day (24th June 2016) regardless of the result.


You sound just like this poor deluded soul on the James O'Brien show

*When this Brexiteer made some points that were patently untrue, James O'Brien was forced to correct her with facts.*

*Jill in Esher said that Theresa May had never told the European Union that we are leaving. So James had to point out that she did exactly that when she triggered Article 50.
*
And every time Jill said something that simply wasn't true, James corrected her.

Jill urged us to walk away from the EU, she insisted: "What do we have to lose?"

James' response: "Freedom of movement between 28 countries. Access to the largest single market in the world. Membership of the largest single market in the world. Freedom to trade with the largest single market in the world. Plus the treaties delivered."

Jill complained that James always talked about what life will be like it we leave the EU, but never what it would look like if we stayed. James answered: "Your life would be exactly the same."

She insisted that isn't true, because we'd be forced to join the Euro. Again, James was forced to correct her.

Watch the video above for the full call - http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/this-brexiteer-said-things-that-werent-true/

............


----------



## noushka05

James O'Brien is SO good.
_

Reality's going to get them all in the end. Not just May.
Brexit's now about how much damage the delusions can do before they become unsustainable
_

_Jacob Rees-Mogg is the blue passport in human form. It would be a mistake to 
underestimate his appeal to the furiously hard of thinking._

_Brexit latest: May should have been 'tougher' with the EU say the same people who considered her
a cross between Boudicca & Thatcher about ten minutes ago.

There will come a point when you realise that 'in favour of Brexit' doesn't actually mean anything. 
Shortly after that you'll understand why people who already realise this are getting so frustrated. 
Like you, I wish this process could be gentler but I don't currently see how.
_


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> You sound just like this poor deluded soul on the James O'Brien show
> 
> *When this Brexiteer made some points that were patently untrue, James O'Brien was forced to correct her with facts.*
> 
> *Jill in Esher said that Theresa May had never told the European Union that we are leaving. So James had to point out that she did exactly that when she triggered Article 50.
> *
> And every time Jill said something that simply wasn't true, James corrected her.
> 
> Jill urged us to walk away from the EU, she insisted: "What do we have to lose?"
> 
> James' response: "Freedom of movement between 28 countries. Access to the largest single market in the world. Membership of the largest single market in the world. Freedom to trade with the largest single market in the world. Plus the treaties delivered."
> 
> Jill complained that James always talked about what life will be like it we leave the EU, but never what it would look like if we stayed. James answered: "Your life would be exactly the same."
> 
> She insisted that isn't true, because we'd be forced to join the Euro. Again, James was forced to correct her.
> 
> Watch the video above for the full call - http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/this-brexiteer-said-things-that-werent-true/
> 
> ............


Rather reminds me of the farmer I heard about ("Any Questions"?), who can't wait to leave the EU as he believes he'll be able to export his milk to Australia!

I wasn't aware cows weren't resident in that country. You learn something new everyday!


----------



## noushka05

KittenKong said:


> Rather reminds me of the farmer I heard about ("Any Questions"?), who can't wait to leave the EU as he believes he'll be able to export his milk to Australia!
> 
> I wasn't aware cows weren't resident in that country. You learn something new everyday!


Exporting milk 10,000 miles away makes total sense to me


----------



## stockwellcat.

From buzzfeed used by ministers.

The government's new analysis of the impact of Brexit says the UK would be worse off outside the European Union under every scenario modelled, BuzzFeed News can reveal.

The assessment, which is titled "EU Exit Analysis - Cross Whitehall Briefing" and dated January 2018, looked at three of the most plausible Brexit scenarios based on existing EU arrangements.

Under a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU, UK growth would be 5% lower over the next 15 years compared to current forecasts, according to the analysis.

The "no deal" scenario, which would see the UK revert to World Trade Organization (WTO) rules, would reduce growth by 8% over that period. The softest Brexit option of continued single-market access through membership of the European Economic Area would, in the longer term, still lower growth by 2%.

These calculations do not take into account any short-term hits to the economy from Brexit, such as the cost of adjusting the economy to new customs arrangements.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonar...e-uk-will-be?utm_term=.rg5Zx8v4Ep#.fkN53wNDlV

Well not being nasty but we was expecting some kind of short or medium term impact. But again the figures mentioned are only guess work and could be deemed as doom mongering. So far, critics have been mainly proven wrong. So I am shrugging off these figures as they will more than likely change over the next 9 months.

What this report doesn't do is tell you how Brexit is going to affect the EU as they are going to have an economic shock as well.

Just found out the numbers qouted in this report from BuzzFeed where only assumptions and speculative so there is no hard facts and the report is only a draft.

Theresa May is starting to look as if she is losing grip on power. Bye, bye May. I predict a conservative party leadership challenge very soon.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> From buzzfeed used by ministers.
> 
> The government's new analysis of the impact of Brexit says the UK would be worse off outside the European Union under every scenario modelled, BuzzFeed News can reveal.
> 
> The assessment, which is titled "EU Exit Analysis - Cross Whitehall Briefing" and dated January 2018, looked at three of the most plausible Brexit scenarios based on existing EU arrangements.
> 
> Under a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU, UK growth would be 5% lower over the next 15 years compared to current forecasts, according to the analysis.
> 
> The "no deal" scenario, which would see the UK revert to World Trade Organization (WTO) rules, would reduce growth by 8% over that period. The softest Brexit option of continued single-market access through membership of the European Economic Area would, in the longer term, still lower growth by 2%.
> 
> These calculations do not take into account any short-term hits to the economy from Brexit, such as the cost of adjusting the economy to new customs arrangements.
> 
> https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonar...e-uk-will-be?utm_term=.rg5Zx8v4Ep#.fkN53wNDlV
> 
> Well not being nasty but we was expecting some kind of short or medium term impact. But again the figures mentioned are only guess work and could be deemed as doom mongering. So far, critics have been mainly proven wrong. So I am shrugging off these figures as they will more than likely change over the next 9 months.
> 
> What this report doesn't do is tell you how Brexit is going to affect the EU as they are going to have an economic shock as well.
> 
> Just found out the numbers qouted in this report from BuzzFeed where only assumptions and speculative so there is no hard facts and the report is only a draft.


It's about the future. Facts about the future are hard to come by, or else we'd all be very rich indeed.

But when every prediction by every respected body, including Brexiteer David Davis's own department, says that we're going to be worse off for at least 15 years even in the best scenario, you really have to be a special kind of Leaver to dismiss it all as speculation that can safely be ignored.
*
Under what scenario do you think the UK will be better off, as you have claimed?*

I invited you to do the same in post 1349, but so far you haven't presented your critique of my analysis.

If we are leaving to help future generations, then we need to be very sure indeed that we are doing the right thing. Every credible analysis so far says we're not. Every one. If we leave and even one of those analyses is right, then it will be too late. We can't get back in to the EU on terms as good as we've got now. We _*will*_ have damaged our children's prosperity.

If we're leaving because we don't like the EU making trade rules - with which we almost always agree - and we don't give a damn about the prosperity of the population, then fine. But let's be up front about it. Dressing it up as an act of goodness with future generations in mind sounds ever more like a disingenuous veneer.

Sorry if that sounds blunt, but simply quoting facts doesn't seem to have any effect.


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> That is so true and soon the US is going to have free reign to actually plunder the UK too.


And on that day and every day thereafter you'll all have to keep a close eye on the skies, air traffic and your tallest buildings.:Watching


----------



## KittenKong

I wonder why they were so keen to hush this up?

Surely, everyone regardless of the way they voted should have the right to know.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...accuse-party-colleagues-deliberate-leak#img-1


----------



## Guest

stockwellcat. said:


> The UK can still walk away from the negotiations. The EU aren't prepared to give the UK a fair deal and instead punish the UK by turning it into a vassal state. The time has come to stop pussy footing around and leave. If we severed ties then thw UK could forge its own future.


I`m sorry but that makes no sense.

1) The EU aren't prepared to give the UK a fair deal? You mean the same deal you are having now, with the difference you don´t have to pay anything? Or what is the "fair deal" you are talking about? If you expect everything to be as smooth as while you are in EU, that must be, well, to put it politely, not the cleverest wish for a leaver.
But then I don´t blame you not to be able to define what you want, as neither have May & co.

Leavers shout "leave all" and at the same time "I want to keep all" too. It is very confusing to try to make some sense what do you really want. It´s like there is the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about and the elephant is that actually EU was a very good club to be part of. Most would like to be a member still, but just doesn´t know how to sell it so that they wouldn´t lose face or next elections.



KittenKong said:


> Seems even some hard Brexit backers are preparing for the crash.
> https://www.timesofmalta.com/mobile...-supporter-obtains-maltese-passport-ft.669224
> 
> Damn right hypocritical if you ask me!
> 
> Definitely a case of, "Do what I say not do as I do"
> View attachment 343634
> View attachment 343635
> View attachment 343636


And Malta is a tax haven country... I wonder if that is just a coincidence... True patriot though, and will keep saying go Brexit go, no matter what.



noushka05 said:


> That is so true and soon the US is going to have free reign to actually plunder the UK too.


Doesn´t that frighten you? Talk about scaremongering - this is something to be feared for real? Or is anyone still thinking Brexit and Trump will make UK strong and so rich, that even NHS will have money?

Why am I thinking this? How many different analysis and calculations and facts you have that all point to disaster?


----------



## Elles

Brexit is nothing like the terrible disasters linked. We’re leaving the Eu, not dropping a nuke. How can people expect to be taken seriously? Global warming and pollution is a disaster, the U.K. leaving the Eu trading bloc is a political decision that will have next to no impact on the majority of European and British citizens. It’s about time we held our government and ourselves to account and stopped blaming the Eu or Brexit for everything and got on with it.


----------



## Zaros

MrsZee said:


> Why am I thinking this? How many different analysis and calculations and facts you have that all point to disaster?


:Wideyed If Brexit is the titanic, does that mean 2019 is the iceberg?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Brexit is nothing like the terrible disasters linked. We're leaving the Eu, not dropping a nuke. How can people expect to be taken seriously? Global warming and pollution is a disaster, the U.K. leaving the Eu trading bloc is a political decision that will have next to no impact on the majority of European and British citizens. It's about time we held our government and ourselves to account and stopped blaming the Eu or Brexit for everything and got on with it.


I agree.

But is it a disaster if you lose your job? If you live in Gibraltar and don't know what the future holds for any of you?

If the money we need for the NHS doesn't materialise because the reduced GDP growth after Brexit curtails the tax revenue that would pay for it, what about those whose diagnosis takes too long ...?

These things always affect those on the margins, and for them it could easily be a disaster, or an avoidable tragedy.

The ones who will be least affected, or who may even gain by playing the markets, are those like Rees-Mogg. For them collateral damage to those at the bottom is a price they are very willing to pay to revive their dreams of Britannia bestriding the globe.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Arnie83

Another excuse to dismiss the report on Brexit's damage is the one put forward today by IDS and Bernard Jenkin among others; that these government predictions are always wrong and can be safely ignored.

Why then, do the Tories base their economic strategy on such predictions, claiming that they can't afford to give the NHS the money it needs because it isn't there to give? 

Why do they formulate annual budgets based on Office of Budget Responsibility predictions? Why not just do exactly what they feel like, if those predictions aren't worth the spreadsheets they're written on?

How can they attack Corbyn's spending plans on economic grounds when their predictions of profligate doom can't be trusted?

Or do they only ridicule such assessments when they don't like the answers?


----------



## cheekyscrip

MrsZee said:


> I`m sorry but that makes no sense.
> 
> 1) The EU aren't prepared to give the UK a fair deal? You mean the same deal you are having now, with the difference you don´t have to pay anything? Or what is the "fair deal" you are talking about? If you expect everything to be as smooth as while you are in EU, that must be, well, to put it politely, not the cleverest wish for a leaver.
> But then I don´t blame you not to be able to define what you want, as neither have May & co.
> 
> Leavers shout "leave all" and at the same time "I want to keep all" too. It is very confusing to try to make some sense what do you really want. It´s like there is the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about and the elephant is that actually EU was a very good club to be part of. Most would like to be a member still, but just doesn´t know how to sell it so that they wouldn´t lose face or next elections.
> 
> And Malta is a tax haven country... I wonder if that is just a coincidence... True patriot though, as will say go Brexit go, no matter what.
> 
> Doesn´t that frighten you? Talk about scaremongering - this is something to be fear for real? Or is anyone still thinking Brexit and Trump will make UK strong and so rich, that even NHS will have money?
> 
> Why am I thinking this? How many different analysis and calculations and facts you have that all point to disaster?


Oh, but MrsZee - the EU will punish us if we stay!!!
By euro.

Now that is a Project Fear if I ever heard one!!!

Nothing will save us but Trump's orange tiny hands!!!

Together we will build a WALL, from Mexico to Calais!


----------



## Arnie83

Logic ...

The Tory Brexiteers don't believe the figures in the government impact assessments, because all figures produced by the government are always wrong.

They have no alternative figures to suggest; they just know the ones in the report are wrong.

So the truth - according to the Brexiteers - is that the actual damage to the UK economy could be even worse than predicted.

Scary.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> leaving the Eu trading bloc is a political decision that will have next to no impact on the majority of European and British citizens


Makes you wonder why people voted to leave then doesn't it. Isn't it amazing how now the defense for leave has turned not into advantages of leaving but it will have next to no impact on the majority. Shame about all those who will and are suffering as a result isn't it. At least they are not "the majority".


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well Mark Carney has spoken up today saying that he expects the UK's economy to pick up next year (2019). So all this worry from remainers over the economy is unnecessary.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/mark-carney-uk-economy-growth-gdp-brexit-investment-lords-committee-bank-england-a8185671.html?amp

So I wonder who exactly is fear mongering (remainers)?


----------



## Elles

It’s not a defence for leave, it’s worse case scenario aimed at those who voted remain and now think it’s the end of the world as we know it. I don’t have a crystal ball, but I think those who sit around wringing their hands are the ones who will suffer. Regardless. Those who try to look for opportunity and grab it with both hands, will benefit. Regardless. In or out of the Eu. Regardless of what happens. 

There is always opportunity and people in terrible situations, far worse than a Brit living outside the Eu manage to find them. There will be advantages and opportunities outside of the Eu. Who knows, the blame for ills is always someone else’s fault. Leaving the Eu may stop people blaming the Eu, start looking closer to home and vote in a better government. Could be the best thing to happen to the U.K. and Europe in decades. Of course if it turns out better for everyone, then we’ll know it was the right choice. 

Things change. People are afraid of change.


----------



## cheekyscrip

E


Elles said:


> It's not a defence for leave, it's worse case scenario aimed at those who voted remain and now think it's the end of the world as we know it. I don't have a crystal ball, but I think those who sit around wringing their hands are the ones who will suffer. Regardless. Those who try to look for opportunity and grab it with both hands, will benefit. Regardless. In or out of the Eu. Regardless of what happens.
> 
> There is always opportunity and people in terrible situations, far worse than a Brit living outside the Eu manage to find them. There will be advantages and opportunities outside of the Eu. Who knows, the blame for ills is always someone else's fault. Leaving the Eu may stop people blaming the Eu, start looking closer to home and vote in a better government. Could be the best thing to happen to the U.K. and Europe in decades. Of course if it turns out better for everyone, then we'll know it was the right choice.
> 
> Things change. People are afraid of change.


Any facts that might guarantee the change is for the best? Or at least better?
You may say that ISIS also want " change", Trump is a " change" from the beaten track too and?
Hitler or Stalin, Mao, Castro were " the change " too.
They still have their groupies.
Switching from EU to USA satellite is a major error.
It gives the reins in EU to Germany and France, Britain will have no voice at all!!!
And I doubt Trump will listen. Or any other POTUS will listen. Britain had many allies in EU - EU is not just Germany and France!!!
There are many fractions in EU.
But USA is one country, one government, what do you expect to gain there? Really?

Britain by leaving really let down her allies in EU.

How many wars EU got us into? What about USA?

As to " only minority" will suffer - do you hear what you actually SAYING?
How easy is to sacrifice safety and livelihoods of " others "?

Then you could complain about " divided country " - telling "others" to shut up and suffer in silence?
WHY should they?


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Well Mark Carney has spoken up today saying that he expects the UK's economy to pick up next year (2019)
> ...
> So I wonder who exactly is fear mongering (remainers)?


Hillarious. Do you actually read further than the headline? Growth globally is good which has a knock on effect on the UK. This isn't the UK doing well, it's the world dragging the UK along behind it. We will still worse off than if we stayed in the EU.


----------



## Elles

I actually meant whether we stay or leave, people sitting around wringing their hands will suffer. That’s what I meant by regardless. Regardless of what happens, people who look for the worst, all doom and despair, would suffer even if they were fit, healthy millionaires. We have to take what life throws at us and do the best we can. We westerners have been given advantages that some in third world countries can’t even dream about, yet here we are, all doom and gloom just because the U.K. is leaving the Eu and oh dear we might, we might not, but we might, end up worse off, even if only in the short term. We’ll have to see. Let’s see what the Conservatives do with it and what the British do if they aren’t happy with what the conservatives do with it.

America isn’t Trump. He’s a glitch in the system, probably brought about because Americans didn’t have an Obama or Kennedy to vote for and terrorism and fear mongering pushed them towards building walls, instead of knocking them down. Too strong a generalisation I expect though, America is a lot of people, I expect they had even more varied reasons for voting Trump than Brits did for Brexit. If our government does make a deal with the US, it will be with the US, not their temporary president. 

Seems to me people are worrying themselves into a sweat for no reason. 

We haven’t left yet, so if Britain is doing badly it’s not Brexit, it could be fear of Brexit and that phenomenon that is self fulfilling prophesy, but it’s not because we’ve left the Eu. We’re still in it.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I actually meant whether we stay or leave, people sitting around wringing their hands will suffer. That's what I meant by regardless. Regardless of what happens, people who look for the worst, all doom and despair, would suffer even if they were fit, healthy millionaires. We have to take what life throws at us and do the best we can. We westerners have been given advantages that some in third world countries can't even dream about, yet here we are, all doom and gloom just because the U.K. is leaving the Eu and oh dear we might, we might not, but we might, end up worse off, even if only in the short term. We'll have to see. Let's see what the Conservatives do with it and what the British do if they aren't happy with what the conservatives do with it.
> 
> America isn't Trump. He's a glitch in the system, probably brought about because Americans didn't have an Obama or Kennedy to vote for and terrorism and fear mongering pushed them towards building walls, instead of knocking them down. Too strong a generalisation I expect though, America is a lot of people, I expect they had even more varied reasons for voting Trump than Brits did for Brexit. If our government does make a deal with the US, it will be with the US, not their temporary president.
> 
> Seems to me people are worrying themselves into a sweat for no reason.
> 
> We haven't left yet, so if Britain is doing badly it's not Brexit, it could be fear of Brexit and that phenomenon that is self fulfilling prophesy, but it's not because we've left the Eu. We're still in it.


_Take what life throws at us? _So even you can see Brexit is an act of self harm then?. The governments own brexit analysis says the UK will be worse off in every scenario outside the EU. Do you think people are going to sit back & watch our country be plundered by corporate America, the disaster capitalists behind Legatum Institute & greedy tax dodgers? You clearly don't think a self inflicted race to the bottom for all our standards is a serious matter - well to many of us its a disaster . Maybe you and your loved ones don't depend upon our NHS, but just try thinking the millions of others who do. Think about this lady, Elles.
_
''Jeremy Hunt admits EU cancer drugs will not be available in Britain if Brexit talks break down: ''' I have cancer. I am being treated. 
Wait till YOUR family member has it. No *NHS*, no treatment. Well done, Leavers. *stopbrexit*
_
Think about EU citizens who have made this country their home, many of whom are keeping our NHS from collapsing - they care for us when we are sick or infirm.

*Christoph Wieczorek*‏@*Iamthehydra* Jan 19

_I came to the UK 22 years ago. GCSEs, ALevels and a degree later I have been an NHS doctor for 13 years, 4 as a consultant.
I married a Geordie and have a British child. I am about to sit a test about the Whig party and the 1832 Reform Act so I deffo get to stay. #1DayWithoutUs_

Think about Cheeky, think about Ireland.

Trivialise all you like but people are suffering right now because of brexit & the tories. Maybe only when it affects you directly will you understand how we feel_._


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> I`m sorry but that makes no sense.
> 
> 1) The EU aren't prepared to give the UK a fair deal? You mean the same deal you are having now, with the difference you don´t have to pay anything? Or what is the "fair deal" you are talking about? If you expect everything to be as smooth as while you are in EU, that must be, well, to put it politely, not the cleverest wish for a leaver.
> But then I don´t blame you not to be able to define what you want, as neither have May & co.
> 
> Leavers shout "leave all" and at the same time "I want to keep all" too. It is very confusing to try to make some sense what do you really want. It´s like there is the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about and the elephant is that actually EU was a very good club to be part of. Most would like to be a member still, but just doesn´t know how to sell it so that they wouldn´t lose face or next elections.
> 
> And Malta is a tax haven country... I wonder if that is just a coincidence... True patriot though, and will keep saying go Brexit go, no matter what.
> 
> Doesn´t that frighten you? Talk about scaremongering - this is something to be feared for real? Or is anyone still thinking Brexit and Trump will make UK strong and so rich, that even NHS will have money?
> 
> Why am I thinking this? How many different analysis and calculations and facts you have that all point to disaster?





Zaros said:


> :Wideyed If Brexit is the titanic, does that mean 2019 is the iceberg?


The Titanic is a perfect analogy Mrs Zee!.

Serial liar,Boris Johnson, even promised us we will make a Titanic success of brexit


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Brexit is nothing like the terrible disasters linked. We're leaving the Eu, not dropping a nuke. How can people expect to be taken seriously? * Global warming and pollution is a disaster*, the U.K. leaving the Eu trading bloc is a political decision that will have next to no impact on the majority of European and British citizens. It's about time we held our government and ourselves to account and stopped blaming the Eu or Brexit for everything and got on with it.


So who will hold a greedy ecocidal government to account when we've left the EU, Elles? 

*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider*  12h12 hours ago

_*Bloody EU! Forcing our children not to get asthma, trying to prevent 40000 deaths a year! #BrexitNow*_
*
*


----------



## noushka05

David Schneider is on top form as per

*Government*:_ "The leaked impact report is irrelevant because it doesn't show the Brexit we want which is the one that gives everyone
a free golden goose and has lucrative trade deals with Atlantis, Narnia and Cloud Cuckoo Land

_
*Brexiters*_: "Ignore those who say it's dangerous to lie down on a train track. Everything will be fine when the train hits.
In fact, let's run down the track straight at the train. 
We'll make a success of the train crash!"
_

.


----------



## Bisbow

Elles said:


> It's not a defence for leave, it's worse case scenario aimed at those who voted remain and now think it's the end of the world as we know it. I don't have a crystal ball, but I think those who sit around wringing their hands are the ones who will suffer. Regardless. Those who try to look for opportunity and grab it with both hands, will benefit. Regardless. In or out of the Eu. Regardless of what happens.
> 
> There is always opportunity and people in terrible situations, far worse than a Brit living outside the Eu manage to find them. There will be advantages and opportunities outside of the Eu. Who knows, the blame for ills is always someone else's fault. Leaving the Eu may stop people blaming the Eu, start looking closer to home and vote in a better government. Could be the best thing to happen to the U.K. and Europe in decades. Of course selfish people will cry about omg borders I might have to wait at customs, woe is me, but if it turns out better for everyone, then we'll know it was the right choice.
> 
> Things change. People are afraid of change.


At last, someone talking sense, best reply I have read so far


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well Mark Carney has spoken up today saying that he expects the UK's economy to pick up next year (2019). So all this worry from remainers over the economy is unnecessary.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/mark-carney-uk-economy-growth-gdp-brexit-investment-lords-committee-bank-england-a8185671.html?amp
> 
> So I wonder who exactly is fear mongering (remainers)?


The worry about the economy is that it is not doing as well as it would be doing had the country not voted to leave.

Mark Carney - whose prediction, I note, you suddenly quote in evidence rather than dismiss as speculation to be safely ignored as per yesterday's DExEU report - has said that the economy will be 2% smaller by the end of this year than it would have been.

That's £50 bn.

Businesses, as Carney says, will stop sitting on their hands and actually do something when the Brexit terms become clear. Economic activity, which equals GDP growth is therefore likely to rise, depending on what the terms are.

But we will still be £50 bn down and unless the terms are unfeasibly kind to the UK we will still be dropping further behind where we would have been.

Add to that the £40 bn we have to pay in order to leave and you don't have to be a genius to see that the government will have less to spend on the NHS etc. than it would otherwise have had.

It's not 'fear mongering', just unpalatable.

As ever you are cordially invited to point out where your analysis differs from mine (and, in this case, Carney's). I won't hold my breath.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> America isn't Trump. He's a glitch in the system, probably brought about because Americans didn't have an Obama or Kennedy to vote for and terrorism and fear mongering pushed them towards building walls, instead of knocking them down. Too strong a generalisation I expect though, America is a lot of people, I expect they had even more varied reasons for voting Trump than Brits did for Brexit. If our government does make a deal with the US, it will be with the US, not their temporary president.
> 
> Seems to me people are worrying themselves into a sweat for no reason.
> 
> We haven't left yet, so if Britain is doing badly it's not Brexit, it could be fear of Brexit and that phenomenon that is self fulfilling prophesy, but it's not because we've left the Eu. We're still in it.


America is America though isn't it.

I can sort of understand Brexiteers arguing they are British but not European hence why they want to leave.

So why do the same people think it's OK to gain closer ties with the US?

Do they really want to be dictated to by an unelected President from a foreign country? This argument was used by many Brexiteers about being, "Dictated to by Brussels".

Brexiteers may argue they are British, not European.

Britons aren't American either.....


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It's not a defence for leave, it's worse case scenario aimed at those who voted remain and now think it's the end of the world as we know it. I don't have a crystal ball, but I think those who sit around wringing their hands are the ones who will suffer. Regardless. Those who try to look for opportunity and grab it with both hands, will benefit. Regardless. In or out of the Eu. Regardless of what happens.
> 
> There is always opportunity and people in terrible situations, far worse than a Brit living outside the Eu manage to find them. There will be advantages and opportunities outside of the Eu. Who knows, the blame for ills is always someone else's fault. Leaving the Eu may stop people blaming the Eu, start looking closer to home and vote in a better government. Could be the best thing to happen to the U.K. and Europe in decades. Of course selfish people will cry about omg borders I might have to wait at customs, woe is me, but if it turns out better for everyone, then we'll know it was the right choice.
> 
> Things change. People are afraid of change.


I agree with that. And those with an entrepreneurial bent will always adapt and come out on top. Those with a lot of money will also likely thrive whatever the situation.

What worries me is those at the bottom, who, for whatever reason, can't thrust out their chests and stride through whatever storms are coming their way. The sort of vulnerable people that a government is there to protect. Leaving will make the economy worse than it would have been. Help for those people will be less than it would have been. Telling them to stand on their own two feet and try harder - which I appreciate is taking an extreme interpretation of your point - won't work.

"Things change. People are afraid of change."

That is undoubtedly true. There are certainly some who would have wanted to stay in the EU because of fear for the alternative. Just as there were those who wanted to Leave because of fear for the future within it. And those who complained that the EU had changed from what we joined. And those who just want to go back to the way it used to be.

People don't like change, and in Brexit it has been proven on both sides.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> We have to take what life throws at us and do the best we can.


I'd agree if the direction wasn't due to people making decisions where they cannot even show advantages for what they voted for. This isn't an act of God, it's people voting for something they are unable to justify which will negatively impact lives. Will not impact me greatly.. may have more red tape but will impact my daughter.


----------



## KittenKong

Brexiteers, I'll leave you to make up your own minds.


----------



## noushka05

Interesting thread by tory MP Phillip Lee. (best close your eyes leavers - it relates to evidence)
_
The next phase of Brexit has to be all about the evidence. We can't just dismiss this and move on. 
If there is evidence to the contrary, we need to see and consider that too_. https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonar...the-uk-will-be?utm_term=.mqEB49eWD#.wybvRr674

_But if these figures turn out to be anywhere near right, there would be a serious question over whether a government could legitimately
lead a country along a path that the evidence and rational consideration indicate would be damaging. 
This shows the PM's challenge...2/3

The PM has been dealt some tough cards and I support her mission to make the best of them.
It's time for evidence, not dogma, to show the way. We must act for our country's best interests, not ideology & populism, or history will judge us harshly. 
Our country deserves no less 3/3_


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> That's not exactly what I conclude when I've been quietly reading. You leavers are very caustic in some of your responses. .


 Not all have . The same with you remainers . 
What a waste of time this thread is . 
Whether a few people change their minds or not on this forum , its not going to make any difference .


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> Interesting thread by tory MP Phillip Lee. (best close your eyes leavers - it relates to evidence)
> _
> The next phase of Brexit has to be all about the evidence. We can't just dismiss this and move on.
> If there is evidence to the contrary, we need to see and consider that too_. https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonar...the-uk-will-be?utm_term=.mqEB49eWD#.wybvRr674
> 
> _But if these figures turn out to be anywhere near right, there would be a serious question over whether a government could legitimately
> lead a country along a path that the evidence and rational consideration indicate would be damaging.
> This shows the PM's challenge...2/3
> 
> The PM has been dealt some tough cards and I support her mission to make the best of them.
> It's time for evidence, not dogma, to show the way. We must act for our country's best interests, not ideology & populism, or history will judge us harshly.
> Our country deserves no less 3/3_


That statement is full of "ifs". IF there is evidence, IF the figures are right

Just like most of the remainers and their experts, just a little word that carries a lot of weight


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> That statement is full of "ifs". IF there is evidence, IF the figures are right
> 
> Just like most of the remainers and their experts, just a little word that carries a lot of weight


Absolutely agree.

But isn't it better to try to find out with more research and analysis than just airily dismiss it all as 'scaremongering', or 'the figures are always wrong', or 'I don't believe it' ?


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> Not all have . The same with you remainers .
> What a waste of time this thread is.


Just be careful with those accusations now. You might find they're completely groundless and fall flat on your face.:Facepalm

As for this thread being a waste of time, the same can be said of any politically themed thread.
Neither you or I or any other member contributing their opinion to such, is ever going to change the flow of the political river.

Que sera, sera.

Little point to being ill mannered.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> That statement is full of "ifs". IF there is evidence, IF the figures are right
> 
> Just like most of the remainers and their experts, just a little word that carries a lot of weight


"IF" they have nothing to hide why don't they just publish the full impact studies for us all to see, Bisbow? 

The Lancets impact studies on the NHS found every form of brexit will damage our already austerity crippled NHS.

The choice is our NHS OR brexit. What do you have to say about that?


----------



## Elles

No @noushka05 I don't see Brexit as self harming. Nor do I compare it to disasters like the Titanic, or any other disaster where people lost their lives in horrific situations.

Just about everything I read, from saving the NHS to how the disabled are treated is down to our own government and us as individuals and nothing to do with the Eu.

We are just leaving the Eu. I don't actually give a damn about bankers, large financial institutions and corporations. If they set up elsewhere in Europe the people who work for them might get to live somewhere cleaner and with better weather than London and not risk burning to death in tower blocks. I expect our government will make sure that we can still poach underpaid skilled and manual workers from the poorer countries. Most of what's being said and done is behind closed doors anyway.

If we feel strongly that we shouldn't leave the Eu, we should putting forward our positive case and working for it. Not yammering and whining and comparing Brexit to the Titanic disaster, or any other disaster. That's in part why some people voted for Brexit. The exaggerations and fear mongering. It seems to me Remainers are still at it, because they still have nothing persuasive and positive to offer.

Now they're resorting to insulting America and Americans. When we leave the Eu those with interest in it can make trade deals with whoever they want and are able to.. The rest of us will carry on trading with the rest of the world, same as we do now.

The government is transferring the laws on it into British law, so goods will still have to comply with the rules on testing and safety. What we make will still have to be tested to the same standard as before. We (specific, not we Britain)have extra testing if we want to sell to Switzerland, or Australia as they have even higher standards than we do on our product. The Australian version we make doesn't even look the same. If Australia can demand it, why can't we? Oh, we can. Once we're out of the Eu.

There's a video circulating Facebook atm with a positive message about Japan. Forget America, I vote we take some of our cues from the Japanese.


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> Just be careful


You sound like my dear old dad, He used to say if you can't be good be careful or was it don't come home with a bun in the oven?


----------



## Arnie83

Sorry to cut your sensible post up into bits, and maybe to butt in where I wasn't being addressed! But on these 3 points ...



Elles said:


> I don't see Brexit as self harming


If we are advised by every reputable analysis that our GDP growth will suffer, meaning less money to spend, and we go ahead anyway, isn't that self-harm?



Elles said:


> If we feel strongly that we shouldn't leave the Eu, we should putting forward our positive case


If we stay in, our economic growth will be higher, giving us more money, both personally and publicly.

With a completely free market - one that only the EU single market provides in the world - competition has, does and will force our businesses to innovate and improve. That pressure to improve is diluted when home markets are protected. That keeps us competitive both in Europe, and internationally.

And a non-economic one from me: The EU blurs the boundaries between nations, and brings them closer together. It is the future we should embrace for the good of mankind and the planet.



Elles said:


> The government is transferring the laws on it into British law


But the Brexiteers have specifically said that they want to diverge from the EU regulations.

Rees-Mogg said that regulations that were "good enough for India" could be good enough for the UK.

Redwood reckons we could save £14 bn by removing regulations "including rules on working hours and employee protection and restrictions on financial services." (from the Telegraph report.)

If one thinks that is a good thing, then fine, but merely transferring safeguarding regulations across does not mean they will subsequently be protected.


----------



## Elles

Some Brexiteers want a lot of things they aren’t going to get. As my old mother used to say ‘I want, doesn’t get.’

If they want to take away regulation that protects people who can’t protect themselves, we need to make sure they can’t and don’t. 

Some Brexiteers wanted to leave the Eu and strengthen our own laws, not weaken them.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> No @noushka05 I don't see Brexit as self harming. Nor do I compare it to disasters like the Titanic, or any other disaster where people lost their lives in horrific situations.
> 
> Just about everything I read, from saving the NHS to how the disabled are treated is down to our own government and us as individuals and nothing to do with the Eu.
> 
> We are just leaving the Eu. I don't actually give a damn about bankers, large financial institutions and corporations. If they set up elsewhere in Europe the people who work for them might get to live somewhere cleaner and with better weather than London and not risk burning to death in tower blocks. I expect our government will make sure that we can still poach underpaid skilled and manual workers from the poorer countries. Most of what's being said and done is behind closed doors anyway.
> 
> If we feel strongly that we shouldn't leave the Eu, we should putting forward our positive case and working for it. Not yammering and whining and comparing Brexit to the Titanic disaster, or any other disaster. That's in part why some people voted for Brexit. The exaggerations and fear mongering. It seems to me Remainers are still at it, because they still have nothing persuasive and positive to offer.
> 
> Now they're resorting to insulting America and Americans. When we leave the Eu those with interest in it can make trade deals with whoever they want and are able to.. The rest of us will carry on trading with the rest of the world, same as we do now.
> 
> The government is transferring the laws on it into British law, so goods will still have to comply with the rules on testing and safety. What we make will still have to be tested to the same standard as before. We (specific, not we Britain)have extra testing if we want to sell to Switzerland, or Australia as they have even higher standards than we do on our product. The Australian version we make doesn't even look the same. If Australia can demand it, why can't we? Oh, we can. Once we're out of the Eu.
> 
> There's a video circulating Facebook atm with a positive message about Japan. Forget America, I vote we take some of our cues from the Japanese.


Yes exactly - the reason the NHS is on its knees & everything is in crisis is due to the the tories NOT the EU. Yet the EU & migrants have been made convenient scapegoats by the govt & their mates in the right wing rags- you need look no further than posts from leavers on this forum to see that many leavers have fallen for the propaganda and voted leave on the basis of it.

How many people will die without our NHS ? How many cancer patients will die when we leave euratom? A lot more than died on the Titanic I fear!. The people on the Titanic were promised the safest journey (Titanic was unsinkable). The people who pushed for brexit promised we would prosper (a big fat lie). That's the analogy.










*
(Scientist Mike Galsworthy:* _Here's the thing... there are tons of Brexit technical complexities with Euratom, radioisotopes, EASA (airplane maintenance at_
_airports), etc... But the ruling party don't do these kind of details._
_They want blue passports, commemorative stamps and Big Ben bonging us out_.)

Its not scaremongering when its reality. Brexit is a Trojan horse. The brextremists will use it as cover to introduce disaster capitalism to this country.

_Forget America_?? How?? when the tories are grovelling to them for a trade deal ?? and despite posting information you still don't seem to understand how such a trade deal will work. We will have to harmonise our standards with theirs dire standards, Elles - whether you choose to believe it or not.

I think you'll find progressive minded citizens of America agree with our criticism's of their country & their government - they say the same themselves!. And this is how America sees us now.




































You say: _The government is transferring the laws on it into British law, so goods will still have to comply with the rules on testing and safety._

_*MPs have voted to reject an amendment designed to preserve rights and powers derived from EU law. 
Voting was 319 to 296 - a majority of 23.
*
_
Where do you get your information from?? The Withdrawal bill is turning out to be right wing power grab it was predicted it would be.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Some Brexiteers want a lot of things they aren't going to get. As my old mother used to say 'I want, doesn't get.'
> 
> If they want to take away regulation that protects people who can't protect themselves, we need to make sure they can't and don't.
> 
> Some Brexiteers wanted to leave the Eu and strengthen our own laws, not weaken them.


Let's hope that we can prevent them, but these things tend to be presented with much else in a manifesto, and are rarely the top issue on which people decide where to put their cross.

On the strengthening of laws, which ones are those? I ask purely for information, not to disagree, since I'm not sufficiently au fait with the ones that we would like to strengthen and are prevented from doing so. (I know there are quite a few that we have 'gold plated'.)


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> If they want to take away regulation that protects people who can't protect themselves, we need to make sure they can't and don't.


They're already doing it, the tories voted to bin our human rights- so how can we _make sure they can't and don't?_












Elles said:


> Some Brexiteers wanted to leave the Eu and strengthen our own laws, not weaken them


Who?


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> "IF"
> 
> The choice is our NHS OR brexit. What do you have to say about that?


You are forever saying the NHS is dyeing

I have just been diagnosed with a heart problem
My friend has just been diagnosed with cancer

We are both have received exemplary treatment, care and kindness

Yes the NHS is having problems but it always has problems no matter who is in power, labour is no better than tories and always will always have problems until no one is ill any more


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> What a waste of time this thread is .


It sure is; I thought that was the reason the original, unspeakably repetitive Neverendum thread was put out to pasture, but it seems it has simply morphed into an equally repetitive B***** thread. :Yawn


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> You are forever saying the NHS is dyeing
> 
> I have just been diagnosed with a heart problem
> My friend has just been diagnosed with cancer
> 
> We are both have received exemplary treatment, care and kindness
> 
> Yes the NHS is having problems but it always has problems no matter who is in power, labour is no better than tories and always will always have problems until no one is ill any more


Firstly I'm genuinely sorry to hear about your heart problem & your friends cancer diagnosis. Just because you are still getting excellent care doesn't mean the NHS isn't on the verge of collapse though or that many others aren't suffering because of it. That many people are still receiving excellent care is due to the magnificent NHS Drs, Nurses, staff who are at breaking point Bisbow! They are on the front line the NHS - they are trying to warn us that our NHS has never been in such crisis.

The Lancet is perhaps the most prestigious medical journal in the world. it doesn't peddle propaganda. That you dismiss its findings says more about your bias than mine. Like Trump supporters you are doubling down on your beliefs in the face of evidence.

Maybe you should actually listen to what those caring NHS professionals are saying Bisbow? We spend less per GDP on our NHS than other developed countries spend on their health services yet it was still one of the fairest, efficient, cost effective health services.

Please listen to this moving account by Dr Lauren Gavaghan.
_
4 million people currently on waiting lists.

40,000 nurses short in our NHS.

Since 2010 15,000 hospital beds have been cut.

What do those figures mean?

Humanity is being sucked out of our NHS.

An 81 year old lady died in her own home waiting 4 hours for an ambulance.

they mean that people are dying on trollies in corridors in England in 2018

This is not normal & we must never accept it or begin to normalise it. It does not have to be this way.
_


----------



## stockwellcat.

@noushka05 The NHS's problems won't be solved by any Government Labour, Conservative etc. The problems with the NHS are deeply routed within their own establishment and the Government being asked to throw an endless pot of money at it so the NHS remains unaccountable for its expenditure isn't going to resolve the issue.

I like many others have received outstanding care from the NHS professionals when I have or they have needed it. Scaremongering about the NHS all the time isn't right. The NHS has been in trouble for a long time and Labour aren't the ones who are going to magically resolve the issues over night if they got in power.

I personally have had no problems with using the NHS and my local hospital is under special measures.


----------



## noushka05




----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> @noushka05 The NHS's problems won't be solved by any Government Labour, Conservative etc. The problems with the NHS are deeply routed within their own establishment and the Government being asked to throw and endless pot of money at it so the NHS remains unaccountable for its expenditure isn't going to resolve the issue.
> 
> I like many others have received outstanding care from the NHS professionals when I have or they have needed it. Scaremongering about the NHS all the time isn't right. The NHS has been in trouble for a long time and Labour aren't the ones who are going to magically resolve the issues over night if they got in power.


Here we go again. OK, i'll just reiterate. The government aren't _'overspending _on our NHS - they are deliberately _underfunding_ it. - To make it more attractive to the private sector. We spend less per GDP on our health service than most other developed counties.

I'm going to carry on fighting tooth & nail to save it - then when its gone, at least i'll know my conscience is clear


----------



## Arnie83

I think the thread is a good place to update people on, and discuss, progress towards Brexit.

For example, Reuters (others have picked it up) are now reporting that the chances of a 'free trade' deal on financial services have been dealt a blow.

But EU officials are dismissive of any trade models that would see Britain retain similar levels of market access while leaving the single market regime.

"They have made it very clear to us that this is unacceptable to them," said one senior British finance executive present at one of the meetings. "This was our best and frankly only proposal. We don't have a plan B."​
Given how important financial services are to the UK economy, this isn't good news.

If it stays this way - and why wouldn't it - it means even less growth, and less money to help out the NHS etc.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...-by-britains-financial-industry-idUKKBN1FK15D


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Here we go again. OK, i'll just reiterate. The government aren't _'overspending _on our NHS - they are deliberately _underfunding_ it. - To make it more attractive to the private sector. We spend less per GDP on our health service than most other developed counties.
> 
> I'm going to carry on fighting tooth & nail to save it - then when its gone, at least i'll know my conscience is clear




The NHS has had more money given to it by this Government than any other previous Government.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The NHS has more money given to it by this Government than any other previous Government.


While the population increases, and ages, and inflation eats away at the funding.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The NHS has more money given to it by this Government than any other previous Government.


In 2010 we were spending 8.8% GDP on our health care. Under this government year on year the share of GDP has gone down & down. By 2020 we will be spending £16bn less on the NHS than we were in 2008. Just 6.6% of GDP. As I said the tories are deliberately underfunding (& privatising it) And brexit will be the final nail in its coffin.

https://juniordoctorblog.com/2016/11/07/the-nhs-underfunding-is-a-choice-and-people-are-dying-video/


----------



## Elles

If westerners didn’t eat a ton of rubbish, smoke like chimneys, take ‘recreational’ drugs and binge drink at the weekends, we could probably half the cost of running the nhs and treat people properly and promptly, but no, it’s the government’s fault and we don’t care what it costs, so long as we don’t have to pay for it. :Nurse


----------



## stockwellcat.

Yes it must the Conservatives fault Labour is in such a mess.

Whoops let me start again.

Yes it must be the Conservatives fault that the NHS is in such a mess . People forget that Labour introduced PFI's and some trusts where on the brink of going into administration under Labour. So who exactly is at fault?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...efends-PFI-as-NHS-trusts-face-bankruptcy.html


----------



## Arnie83

I don't really care whose fault it is. 

As far as this thread is concerned, the decision to go ahead with Brexit is going to mean less money for the NHS.

Those who thought it mean an extra £350m per week should be quite cross. They were sold a pup by people whose prehistoric instincts lead them to care more about the concept of a 'country' than about the people in it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> I don't really care whose fault it is.
> 
> As far as this thread is concerned, the decision to go ahead with Brexit is going to mean less money for the NHS.
> 
> Those who thought it mean an extra £350m per week should be quite cross. They were sold a pup by people whose prehistoric instincts lead them to care more about the concept of a 'country' than about the people in it.


Labour left the NHS on the brink of bankruptcy but you seem to forget that when ranting and saying its the conservatives fault the NHS is in the mess it is in. Well you're wrong. Labour left the nhs with no money through pfis. The conservatives picked up Labours mess and turned the nhs around and gave it money from the publics purse.

Don't you love facts that aren't disputable.


----------



## Arnie83

I write articles for newspapers and magazines on subjects including Brexit. Does that calm your spleen at all?

I come on here in breaks from my writing for a little light relief but get slightly wound up by counter-factual statements and ill-evidenced opinions. I therefore comment about those in the hope that the facts will somehow make people take a different view and maybe mention the changed views to others. A verbal snowball might then get rolling, and my efforts will have affected more than just those I have persuaded.

I think it unlikely, though, that I have been successful so far, since I get a lot more abuse than considered responses.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Labour left the NHS on the brink of bankruptcy but you seem to forget that when ranting and saying its the conservatives fault the NHS is in the mess it is in. Well you're wrong. Labour left the nhs with no money through pfis. The conservatives picked up Labours mess and tuened the nhs around and gave it money from the publics purse.
> 
> Don't you love facts that aren't disputable.


I've never said that the Conservatives are responsible for the state of the NHS.

Yes, I do love facts.


----------



## stockwellcat.

At this precise moment in time nobody knows what state anything will be in after Brexit. The simple fact being Brexit has not happened yet and no one can see into the future. Sorry for this but predictions are theories and they haven't been 100% correct so far, so far as alot of people have dismissed them because of how wrong the theories have been so far. Predictions and theories are not facts they are assumptions.

On the Brexit subject the whole of the leaked study is going to be available in Westminster for MP's to view under the tightest of security so they can see what that whole study says and not just the part the press published.


----------



## Bisbow

What have you written, where can I find the articles have they the made media or national press, thats what I mean by making a noise and my spleen is very calm thank you

You have been rude about leavers and that includes me


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> What have you written, where can I find the articles have they the made media or national press, thats what I mean by making a noise and my spleen is very calm thank you
> 
> You have been rude about leavers and that includes me


Here's one. It's from last year.



Spoiler



_Mrs May is prepared to gamble the UK economy on a Hard Brexit. Here's why she should think again._

On Tuesday, barring an enlightened intention to do what is best for the country rather than the Conservative party, Theresa May will talk of her determination to regain control of our laws and migration policy - the exact nature of which remains unknown - and her preparedness to walk away from the EU single market and the customs union. Brexit means reducing the level of the bathwater, and the baby will have to fend for itself. But don't worry, says David Davis, writing in the Sunday Times, because this gives us the chance to become 'the global leader in free trade', starting with the best possible agreement between ourselves and the EU 27.

Sounds marvellous, doesn't it. And anyone suggesting that the half-full glass is not, in fact, practically brimming is nothing more than a remoaning, project fear pessimist.

So what is this 'free trade' that will send us all soaring to the sunny uplands of a bright tomorrow? Clearly, it is trade without tariffs, without quotas, and without non-tariff barriers. Non-tariff barriers, you might ask? Well, imagine you're the driver of one of those big articulated lorries, waiting to get through customs while a French official looks at the newly required paperwork in his hand, makes the noise that all such functionaries have perfected that translates as 'Mon dieu, will you look at what they've done with that …' then retreats with shaking head into his office and doesn't reappear for three hours. Or, worse, after your long hours making sure that everything is perfectly prepared, he does it,while you wait, to the truck in front of you. Those non-tariff barriers. If we're in the single market and the customs union, then we don't get them. If we're not, then in order to avoid them either Mrs May has to take a running jump over her red lines, or the EU has to agree that we can maintain all the benefits of EU membership without any of the downsides.

Mrs Merkel, among many others, has said that this isn't going to happen. Which, you have to say, seems not unreasonable.

Assuming that the bonfire of red tape which is mooted to follow Brexit - and by the way, don't hold your breath for that, because it'll get worse before it gets better - is not preceded by a similar conflagration of red lines during the negotiations, the deal that comes out the other end is going to be worse, in terms of economics, than the one we currently have.

Mrs May knows this, and, recognising the need to mitigate the damage, has repeatedly spoken of keeping the UK cards close to the UK chest so as not to give away our negotiating position. Of course, this has partly been because the Tories have been fighting like cats in a sack and haven't had a negotiating position to give away, but assuming that they have finally settled on something - most likely via "Post-it" notes, a blindfold, and a dart - it will remain the case.

If this negotiation was going to be a carefree toss-up between Nirvana and Shangri-la, there would be no need for that. But when you are trying to get the 'best deal' for your side, and the red lines are mutually incompatible, then a negotiation becomes a competition. In this case it will be a competition where there is no winner, because, with the continued existence of the EU being the main goal for one of them, each side is going to be economically worse off.

No problem, say Theresa and David. We've got countries lining up for those new free trade agreements. In no time at all everyone will laugh at the very thought of how wary some people insisted we should be of telling a market of 500 million people exactly where to poke its rules. Why, just last Friday, in a meeting with Mrs May, the New Zealand Prime Minister Bill English - and what better nominative omen could we hope for, unless he was called Bill Yookay - indicated that he wanted a 'high quality free trade agreement' with us once we left the EU. And that's New Zealand, remember, with a total population over half as big as that of London! EU, eat your heart out.

But that's just the start; we're going to be a beacon of free trade around the world. It's going to be great, so long, presumably, as the countries we want to trade freely with want to trade freely with us. Because in each case, it's another of those two-way negotiation things, with each side trying, naturally, to get the best deal for its people. The 'high quality' trade deal that Mr English wants indicates something a little more complicated than a handshake at No. 10 and all regulations being rescinded the following Monday.

In simplistic economic theory, free trade is beneficial because country A can concentrate on producing what it's good at - say, widgets - and likewise country B - in their case, say, doohickeys - and together they produce more than they separately would, then trade without any barriers at all, and everyone's happy. Except, perhaps, for those who used to work in country A's doohickey industry, and in B's widget factories, who are now out of a job.

Some governments might think that 'doing what's best' doesn't include sacrificing industries and the jobs that go with them to boost overall production of widgets, doohickeys, or, say, steel. Some might want to protect some industries by not including them in the trade agreement, or have selectively applicable quotas. Some might want to support certain industries to make them more competitive with the new imports. Some - hopefully including the one containing Mrs May and Mr Davis - may recognise that replacing the EU agreements with new ones is not only a gamble, but, since each one entails competitive and ridiculously detailed negotiations on an industry by industry basis, a long term gamble.

Is it really worth it just to satisfy those Tories who don't want Johnny foreigner making any of our rules?



I don't recall being rude about anyone, but feel free to quote a post to back up your accusation.

I would say, though, that if I have said something which might be seen as a criticism of certain Leavers, it is unlikely to be a generalisation, and you really shouldn't take offence if it doesn't apply to you personally.

I find it very interesting that you think that way, though, as it is a perfect example of the sort of tribal affiliation that has led us to where we are now. An 'attack' on one is an attack on all.


----------



## Goblin

Bisbow said:


> You have been rude about leavers and that includes me


Saying you ignore evidence is not rude. Saying you voted for something which will cause harm is not rude. It is however unfortunate that leavers cannot provide valid counter arguments to the mounting evidence that Brexit will harm the UK and it's population unlike the promises of the leave campaign which have shown to be lies. Maybe you can explain how leaving will make the difference:





As for stockwellcat's comment that we don't know. Yes we do. NHS staffing levels are already down which can be directly linked to brexit. That's not supposition or scapegoating, that's based on evidence. Oh I forget, nobody was influenced by the leave campaign.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> As for stockwellcat's comment that we don't know. Yes we do. NHS staffing levels are already down which can be directly linked to brexit. That's not supposition or scapegoating, that's based on evidence. Oh I forget, nobody was influenced by the leave campaign.


Well let's pick this then.
Nurses get alot of abuse in hospitals especially in A&E. Do you blame them for wanting to leave. As for the excuse of Brexit. Nurses where leaving the NHS well before the referendum. Many people used the excuse I have left my job because of Brexit to tar Brexit and the leave vote. Let's use Lloyd's bank who pre-planned laying staff off before the referendum and knowing they would be laying staff off after the referendum blamed Brexit when they had already planned these lay offs so there excuse wasn't correct. Back to the NHS what is currently going on in the NHS is to do with what Labour done with PFI's not the Conservatives or Brexit. Would you want a job where a drunk verbally abuses you and assults you, this happens daily to hospital staff in A&E along side all the other abuse NHS staff are afflicted to. So is it really the fault of Brexit? I think not entirely.

Let me give you some evidence on NHS assualts in the UK (200 assualts are committed on NHS staff every day according to a report in 2017):


> The body set up to advise hospitals on staff safety is to end that work at the end of March, the BBC has discovered.
> 
> This is despite figures showing almost 200 assaults on doctors, nurses and other NHS staff in England every day.





> In total, 70,555 NHS staff were assaulted in 2015-16, according to NHS Protect figures - up 4% on the previous year.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-38917156

As for the Video from the leave campaign, are you going over old ground again? We are 2 years on from the campaigning and alot has happened. No one can change the past and only look forward to the now because today is for living and tomorrow hasn't happened yet and the past is behind us.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Well let's pick this then.
> Nurses get alot of abuse in hospitals especially in A&E.


Which has nothing to do with the drop in nursing levels due to brexit and the lack of recruitment from previously available sources does it.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Which has nothing to do with the drop in nursing levels due to brexit and the lack of recruitment from previously available sources does it.


It shows that your statement is not entirely true is it. Can you prove it's brexit that Nurses are leaving or is more the fact that Nurses are being subjected to assualts more when working in hospitals? Nurses maybe using the excuse of Brexit to hide that they have left because they have been assualted? You don't know do you, not 100%. I have not heard anyone I know that left being a nurse say it was because of the referendum result or Brexit. Believe it or not people beyond this thread are getting on with their lives and not letting Brexit worry them.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Labour left the NHS on the brink of bankruptcy but you seem to forget that when ranting and saying its the conservatives fault the NHS is in the mess it is in. Well you're wrong. Labour left the nhs with no money through pfis. The conservatives picked up Labours mess and turned the nhs around and gave it money from the publics purse.
> 
> Don't you love facts that aren't disputable.


No one is doubting PFI was wrong, even the current Labour Party. You should be asking why the Tories have continued this policy. Yes you might argue Labour were wrong but the Tories had 8 years to put it right if they intended to. The excuse to blame Labour is wearing thin now.

Ask yourself why TM could afford £1.5billion to bribe the DUP to keep her in power after calling an unnecessary General Election that cost the taxpayer a considerable sum!

Ask yourself this too. I think you're younger than me so probably don't recall much of Thatcher's reign. NHS waiting lists increased considerably. Thatcher said, "The NHS is safe in her hands". Not many believed her.

Things much improved, yet far from perfect of course under Labour.

You're falling for the spin where the far right blamed Labour, immigrants and the EU for the countries problems.

Tories blame everyone but themselves.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> No one is doubting PFI was wrong, even the current Labour Party. You should be asking why the Tories have continued this policy. Yes you might argue Labour were wrong but the Tories had 8 years to put it right if they intended to. The excuse to blame Labour is wearing thin now.
> 
> Ask yourself why TM could afford £1.5billion to bribe the DUP to keep her in power after calling an unnecessary General Election that cost the taxpayer a considerable sum!
> 
> Ask yourself this too. I think you're younger than me so probably don't recall much of Thatcher's reign. NHS waiting lists increased considerably. Thatcher said, "The NHS is safe in her hands". Not many believed her.
> 
> Things much improved, yet far from perfect of course under Labour.
> 
> You're falling for the spin where the far right blamed immigrants and the EU for the countries problems.
> 
> Tories blame everyone but themselves.
> 
> Still, the future of the NHS doesn't bother you anyway. You'd be happy for US health companies to be given the NHS as long as you get your Brexit.


No I am not falling for the spin.

Lets look at the facts.

Labour introduced PFI's, got private firms to start building new hospitals and drained the NHS of money.
Administrators on the verge of being called in to put the NHS into Bankruptcy. These where Tony Blair's days in power.
Along come the Conservatives put a plan in place and help the NHS recover. I am not denying more can be done but let's remember the facts of how the NHS got into the mess it is in and it wasn't the current Conservative governments fault or David Cameron's Government. Waiting times slashed under the Conservative Government. I was seen in 4 days and offered an operation the following week and this is an NHS apparently struggling according to some.

I hope the NHS survives. I admit I have lived on the continent as I have said before and you have to get health care insurance over there if you want health care. The healthcare facilities are alot nicer than the NHS hospitals etc over here. But you get what you pay for.

Yes I remember Thatcher, May is nothing like Thatcher.

Regarding the 1.5 billion offered to the DUP, yes perhaps this could have been paid into the NHS or something else but what is done is done.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> It shows that your statement is not entirely true is it. Can you prove it's brexit that Nurses are leaving or is more the fact that Nurses are being subjected to assualts more when working in hospitals?


Yes it is possible. When you suddenly get a rise in one sector of the nursing community far in excess of all others it shows there is a problem with that sector. When the national health executive states it's a problem specific to that sector (EU nurses) "general assaults" are not the cause. More EU nurses leaving than previous and 90% less registrations is an anomaly outside the general figures.


----------



## Elles

Other things have changed in nursing education. Nurses need a degree, but don’t get the support to get it any more. Nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> But you are not fighting tooth and nail are you
> 
> You just keep blasting us with your rhetoric from behind your screen
> 
> Do something worthwhile so the whole country can hear, Then I will believe it you are fighting for it
> 
> None of you are doing any thing of note are you


More ad hominem attacks. You don't know anything about me Bisbow. But fyi I have been on protest marches, written to MPs, signed countless petitions, donated to crowd funding appeals, joined the campaign to raise awareness on social media. Perhaps you could tell me what else I could do - so I can do it???

Unlike you, I can support my 'rhetoric' with solid evidence.



Elles said:


> If westerners didn't eat a ton of rubbish, smoke like chimneys, take 'recreational' drugs and binge drink at the weekends, we could probably half the cost of running the nhs and treat people properly and promptly, but no, it's the government's fault and we don't care what it costs, so long as we don't have to pay for it. :Nurse


Its is the governments fault when they are cutting GDP on health spending. In most western countries GDP goes up - in tory Britain it goes down. It is the governments fault when they are deliberately underfunding, forcing it to make massive cuts & privatising it.



stockwellcat. said:


> Yes it must the Conservatives fault Labour is in such a mess.
> 
> Whoops let me start again.
> 
> Yes it must be the Conservatives fault that the NHS is in such a mess . People forget that Labour introduced PFI's and some trusts where on the brink of going into administration under Labour. So who exactly is at fault?
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...efends-PFI-as-NHS-trusts-face-bankruptcy.html


PFIs were the brainchild of tory mp David Willetts . I'm no apologist for new labour, I don't forget they took the idea & ran with it! Slate Corbyn all you like but he consistently voted against PFIs & has apologised on behalf of the labour party when he became leader. New labour adopted Thatcherism. I have to laugh at tory supporters who criticize new labour for adopting tory ideology?:Hilarious - PFIs are part & parcel of neoliberal ideology. Why do think many traditional labour supporters were disillusioned with New labour? Why do you think Thatcher said new labour was her greatest achievement?? 

To quote Clive Lewis - _Maybe you've not been keeping up with current events my man but @*UKLabour* now under under new management. PFI ain't on the menu anymore. History will show your party is wedded to a discredited and dying ideology #*neoliberalism*_

Still, whether you choose to believe it or not the NHS *was* in surplus until the tories implemented the Health & Social Care Act in 2012 now its in massive deficit. Go figure.












stockwellcat. said:


> Labour left the NHS on the brink of bankruptcy but you seem to forget that when ranting and saying its the conservatives fault the NHS is in the mess it is in. Well you're wrong. Labour left the nhs with no money through pfis.* The conservatives picked up Labours mess and turned the nhs around and gave it money from the publics purse.*
> 
> Don't you love facts that aren't disputable.


Oh so there is no NHS crisis now?? :Jawdrop This just proves the level of your denial. Cognitive dissonance.

*Dr Lauren Gavaghan #NHSLove*‏Verified [email protected]*DancingTheMind* Jan 28 

_It is my #*PublicDuty* to inform you that the NHS crisis is not due to immigrants, or the elderly, or people who drink alcohol, or nurses, or doctors. 
The crisis has been manufactured by a govt ideologically opposed to the NHS, who have systematically underfunded it for years._


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Other things have changed in nursing education. Nurses need a degree, but don't get the support to get it any more. Nothing to do with Brexit.


No that's due to the tories cutting their burseries.

But this peer reviewed assessment on our NHS in the world renowned Lancet finds all forms of brexit will damage our already crippled NHS.

_Brexit could have a "potentially catastrophic" impact on the NHS_


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> No I am not falling for the spin.
> 
> Lets look at the facts.
> 
> Labour introduced PFI's, got private firms to start building new hospitals and drained the NHS of money.
> Administrators on the verge of being called in to put the NHS into Bankruptcy. These where Tony Blair's days in power.
> Along come the Conservatives put a plan in place and help the NHS recover. I am not denying more can be done but let's remember the facts of how the NHS got into the mess it is in and it wasn't the current Conservative governments fault or David Cameron's Government. Waiting times slashed under the Conservative Government. I was seen in 4 days and offered an operation the following week and this is an NHS apparently struggling according to some.
> 
> I hope the NHS survives. I admit I have lived on the continent as I have said before and you have to get health care insurance over there if you want health care. The healthcare facilities are alot nicer than the NHS hospitals etc over here. But you get what you pay for.
> 
> Yes I remember Thatcher, May is nothing like Thatcher.
> 
> Regarding the 1.5 billion offered to the DUP, yes perhaps this could have been paid into the NHS or something else but what is done is done.


On my goodness! where to start with this Trumpesque post.

Waiting times slashed?? People are dying on trolleys in corridors, in the back of ambulances. You might have been lucky & seen quickly but please spare a thought for all those not as fortunate as you SWC!



















Theres another protest this Saturday for those who can make & care about our NHS. (I have commitments so cant get down to London.)


----------



## noushka05

Yep.
_
As long as the choice is between admitting error or attacking a scapegoat, Brextremists will always go with attacks.
After Brussels, Remoaners, unelected bureaucrats, Lily Allen, enemies of the people & saboteurs, 
they've now turned on the Dept for Exiting the EU & their own PM_. James O'Brien.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Theres another protest this Saturday for those who can make & care about our NHS.


Are you going? Doing something constructive that might make a difference instead of barraging everyone with pages of this on a pet forum?


> (I have commitments so cant get down to London.)


Oh just seen the last little bit. Shame you cannot go and be constructive trying to make change on the protest. But bombarding petforums with pages of the above isn't going to constructively change anything.

Seeing as you cannot go, perhaps send a letter of protest to Jeremy Hunt MP. One of his administration team will reply as they reply to every letter received. Tell them your disgust of the state the NHS is in. Failing that send a letter to your local MP.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> Are you going? Doing something constructive that might make a difference instead of barraging everyone with pages of this on a pet forum?
> 
> Oh just seen the last little bit. Shame you cannot go and be constructive trying to make change. But bombarding petforums with pages of the above isn't going to constructively change anything.


Its called 'debating'. If I think someone is wrong or lying I'm going to challenge them. Simples.


----------



## KittenKong

noushka05 said:


> Its called 'debating'. If I think someone is wrong or lying I'm going to challenge them. Simples.


The Sun, Mail, Telegraph and Express are always right of course.

Some here deny reading these but it's odd some comments I've seen look to be taken directly from the pages of such papers!


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> Some here deny reading these but it's odd some comments I've seen look to be taken directly from the pages of such papers!


Yes they do, from both sides of the debate so don't just say it is leavers

I am not such a snob as to deny reading the Mail among other papers but I am seen as beneath you remainers because of it

Reading the mail makes me an ignorant idiot without a thought of my own


----------



## Zaros

Bisbow said:


> Reading the mail makes me an ignorant idiot without a thought of my own


:Jawdrop It does?

You should bloody well stop reading it then.:Stop


----------



## Bisbow

Zaros said:


> :Jawdrop It does?
> 
> You should bloody well stop reading it then.:Stop


Very funny So I missed the word "then" off, that must proves something I suppose

At least it gives me a sense of humour, and I keep my brain awake by doing the puzzles


----------



## KittenKong

While TM turns to her magic money tree to fly to China in an attempt to secure trade deals with China when it would have been far cheaper to maintain existing conditions as part of Europe within Downing Street.
No doubt it was a mission from God.

Still no money for the NHS though.


----------



## noushka05

Bisbow said:


> Yes they do, from both sides of the debate so don't just say it is leavers
> 
> I am not such a snob as to deny reading the Mail among other papers but I am seen as beneath you remainers because of it
> 
> Reading the mail makes me an ignorant idiot without a thought of my own


I don't see anyone as beneath me. The Mail though is a propagandist rag - it isn't a credible source for factual information. It peddles hate & lies. These are FACTS. Leavers on here have actually reiterated many those lies as reasons they voted to leave the EU - including you Bisbow.

No surprise many who voted to leave read the Express, Mail or Sun.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> I don't see anyone as beneath me. The Mail though is a propagandist rag - it isn't a credible source for factual information. It peddles hate & lies. These are FACTS. Leavers on here have actually reiterated many those lies as reasons they voted to leave the EU - including you Bisbow.
> 
> No surprise many who voted to leave read the Express, Mail or Sun.


So you still proceed to insult leave voters and make us out to not being able to think for ourselves.

Seriously there is only one person I know on here that keeps pedalling the Sun and Express headlines and that person was a remain voter.

To lighten this up I am going to do this








The reason why I done this is because your accusations are so far off the mark. We can think for ourselves you know and your portral of leavers is insulting.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Other things have changed in nursing education. Nurses need a degree, but don't get the support to get it any more. Nothing to do with Brexit.


Yes they have, which affect everyone, foreign non-EU nurses as well as EU nurses. So tell me why have the EU-nurses numbers shown dramatic change far different from others? Not simply recruiting but also leaving?


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> So you still proceed to insult leave voters and make us out to not being able to think for ourselves.
> 
> Seriously there is only one person I know on here thag keeps pedalling the Sun and Express headlines and that person was a remain voter.
> 
> To lighten this up I am going to do this
> View attachment 343871
> 
> The reason why I done this is because you accusations are so far off the mark. We can think for ourselves and your portral of leavers is insulting.


The reasons given for leaving were the same lies peddled by the right wing rags. ( I can drag some of your old posts up if you like? :Smuggrin) Maybe its just coincidence but people got their false information from somewhere.


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> The reasons given for leaving were the same lies peddled by the right wing rags. ( I can drag some of your old posts up if you like? :Smuggrin) Maybe its just coincidence but people got their false information from somewhere.



Off in circles the remainers go.

@Goblin. There are no gaps in my knowledge. My decision to vote leave was no ones business and I like everyone else on referendum day 23rd June 2016 answered a question like everyone else that voted did. I voted leave because I was going to, so you would not have changed my mind. Everything that has happened with the negotiations afterwards is what happens in negotiations. Negotiations are about finding common ground to make a future relationship work if they can. If we get a deal is another question. IMO we would be better off out of the EU regardless of how much of other peoples opinion you throw at me from twitter, facebook etc on here, but I take heed that this is not your personal opinion but instead other peoples opinion. I have failed to read remainers personal opinions on here and read alot of if's from random people claiming they are experts who nobody ever heard of before the referendum results and alot of so called facts remainers keep posting have later been proven wrong or not as bad as they portrayed.

People had many reasons for voting the way they did. There is no single definitive answer to the questions you ask because everyone had their own reasons for voting the way they did. If you don't like peoples reasons it is pretty much tough for you but that is the way it is.


----------



## Arnie83

More from the leaked "EU Exit Analysis - Cross Whitehall Briefing"

The costs to the UK economy of slashing immigration would outweigh the potential benefits of securing a trade deal with the US after Britain leaves the EU, leaked documents show.​
So not only will the very act of leaving make us poorer - unless nothing changes at all - but the planned reduction in immigration will do the same, and the much vaunted US trade deal won't help much.

Has anyone come across any reports (apart from Minford's) showing economic gains from Brexit? I'd be interested to see them if so.


----------



## Elles

Leaked. Strange how nothing of real importance is ever leaked. We have to wait the 50 years or whatever it is.


----------



## KittenKong

Why listen to experts unless they're Andrea Leadsom of course?

This from June 2016
https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilyashton/andrea-leadsom-interview?utm_term=.aePJaoeNp#.csRwPmlLd


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Off in circles the remainers go.
> 
> @GoblinI voted leave because I was going to so, you would not have changed my mind.


Sums it up quite well doesn't it. Actual information and evidence obviously did not matter then or matter now.


----------



## KittenKong

And a comment:


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> So you still proceed to insult leave voters and make us out to not being able to think for ourselves


So, everything you read or see that you do not agree with, is an insult is it?

You're beginning to read just like one of those extremely political/religious zealots.


----------



## Elles

Goblin said:


> Yes they have, which affect everyone, foreign non-EU nurses as well as EU nurses. So tell me why have the EU-nurses numbers shown dramatic change far different from others? Not simply recruiting but also leaving?


Have you asked them? I haven't seen any Eu nurse numbers and I don't know any Eu nurses who have left the U.K. Working for the NHS these days doesn't sound much fun. I'm sure if they were earning well and enjoying their job they'd stay. No one has even suggested that Phillipino nurses should leave, let alone Spanish ones. The government has repeatedly said that Eu nationals living in the U.K. will enjoy the same benefits and rights as before brexit. If nurses are leaving the U.K. because of Brexit, it could be down to their seeing the lies and scaremongering.


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> The government has repeatedly said that Eu nationals living in the U.K. will enjoy the same benefits and rights as before brexit. If nurses are leaving the U.K. because of Brexit, it could be down to their seeing the lies and scaremongering.


How do you explain the words that's now coming out of May's mouth about taking rights away post March 2019?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> So, everything you read or see that you do not agree with, is an insult is it?
> 
> You're beginning to read just like one of those extremely political/religious zealots.


So everytime a remain voter says this newspaper or cartoon portrays remain voters I am not allowed to object and say actually you are wrong and so far off the mark and stick up for myself .

Sorry we don't all conform to remainers way of thinking.

I will say it again but not again after this. The only people that are trying to silence anyone are remainers trying to silence leave voters.


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> So, everything you read or see that you do not agree with, is an insult is it?
> 
> You're beginning to read just like one of those extremely political/religious zealots.


He didn't say that .

He said
"So you still proceed to insult leave voters and make us out to not being able to think for ourselves"

Its in relation to certain newspapers and what is suggested about those who read them.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> So I am not allowed to object?
> 
> The only people that are trying to silence anyone are remainers trying to silence leave voters.


I'm not saying you're not allowed to object, but the way in which you do it is objectionable. You do it with obvious contempt. There's nearly always, some snide little attachment.

And I don't see any evidence of any member attempting to silence the view of another member. Exactly how would that work on a forum? 

However, if you can't post with respect and consideration for another, then perhaps you should stay silent and not post at all.

You're posts clearly show evidence of your lack of patience/tolerance for the views of others. These failings exhibit themselves by the gradual deterioration of your compositions and grammar and the mocking way in which you hurriedly complete them. Almost always edited.

This is not an insult, by the a´way. It's an observation.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> The only people that are trying to silence anyone are remainers trying to silence leave voters.


With respect, pro EU supporters have frequently been told, "We won, you lost, get over it", "Anti British", "Traitors", "Enemies of the people" and to, "Get a grip" just to name a few things.


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> So you still proceed to insult leave voters


Where might that be then?


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> Where might that be then?


:Hilarious I put it in quotes and forgot to add Stockwells names.

Ive added it now .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> With respect, pro EU supporters have frequently been told, "We won, you lost, get over it", "Anti British", "Traitors", "Enemies of the people" and to, "Get a grip" just to name a few things.


Not all of them have been said here . 
Its happens on both "sides " and its a shame . 
I dont think this thread has turned out to be the political discussion it was meant to be!


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious I put it in quotes and forgot to add Stockwells names.


I know that.

:Writing I was trying to be provocative by selecting text to suit my own agenda.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Sums it up quite well doesn't it. Actual information and evidence obviously did not matter then or matter now.


Deja vu I seem to remember having this response before from you. But yes I was going to vote leave and did. Is that such a shock for you to find out that you would have never changed my mind. That's that matter closed. So there is no need for you to repestedly ask me the same question.

Regarding facts. All I have seen is if's and buts and assumptions. Facts happen after events happen. That's that issue from me resolved as well as there is nothing else to say on it in my opinion so there is no need to ask questions all the time on this.

I know you probably don't like what you have just read, but that is it, there is nothing IMO to discuss or repeat the same answer a million times.

Now please respect my answers as I am not dancing around in circles for the next 9 to 13 months saying the same thing over and over again.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious I put it in quotes and forgot to add Stockwells names.


Well I forgive you for not mentioning me


----------



## Elles

What words coming out of May the Remainer’s mouth? Video linkie please.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> Deja vu I seem to remember having this response before from you. But yes I was going to vote leave and did. Is that such a shock for you to find out that you would have never changed my mind. That's that matter closed. So there is no need for you to repestedly ask me the same question.


You just keep repeating I'll ignore evidence as I don't want to hear it. Doesn't mean we should stop providing evidence does it? Would say sorry it annoys you but I am not.



> Regarding facts. All I have seen is if's and buts and assumptions. Facts happen after events happen. That's that issue from me resolved as well as there is nothing else to say on it in my opinion so there is no need to ask questions all the time on this.


Your mind was made up before the referendum and no matter what evidence is provided you will cling onto anything to support your opinion evidence be damned. Doesn't mean that evidence is invalid or doesn't exist even when you ignore it. There's something known as cause and effect. When running towards an open cliff edge you apparantly have no clue that you need to stop as the consequences are in the future. Shame that with Brexit you are responsible for others at the same time and will drag them along with you.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> The only people that are trying to silence anyone are remainers trying to silence leave voters.


I'm not trying to silence you.

In fact, I keep asking you questions for discussion purposes, but silence is all I get back.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Leaked. Strange how nothing of real importance is ever leaked. We have to wait the 50 years or whatever it is.


I think I have to disagree with you there. Surely a government study - confirming other such studies - that reduced immigration will lead to reduced GDP growth is of very real importance when it comes to the decisions that need to be taken in the next year or so.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Have you asked them? I haven't seen any Eu nurse numbers and I don't know any Eu nurses who have left the U.K.


On average 2012-2016 per year, 1,966 nurses and midwives joined register from Spain. October 2016-September 2017, 104 joined.
On average 2012-2016 per year, 1,604 nurses and midwives joined register from Romania. October 2016-September 2017, 216 joined.
On average 2012-2016 per year, 1325 nurses and midwives joined register from Italy. October 2016-September 2017, 187 joined.
On average 2012-2016 per year, 1127 nurses and midwives joined register from Portugal. October 2016-September 2017, 73 joined.
On average 2012-2016 per year, 305 nurses and midwives joined register from Poland. October 2016-September 2017, 34 joined.

Total drop in registrations from EU countries 89%. That's to counter the rise in number of EU nationals leaving the NHS.


----------



## Elles

Not really. It’s speculative and nothing will happen about it. Clearly powerful people want us to be running scared and stay in the Eu, so we get leaks.

Btw. Teresa May is PM of Great Britain. No mean feat. She’s in a position to be very well informed and no fool. People appear to believe that before the referendum she believed in the Eu and was keen to stay in. They now say that she wants to leave and deny to me that she’s still a remainer. So if one of the most powerful and informed women in the U.K. wants to leave the Eu, despite previously being an ardent supporter, why is that do you think?

For her buddies to make more money? They’re leaving the U.K. and we’re all going to be poorer. Plus she wasn’t worried about that before the referendum.

I would surmise that she’s either still a remainer, or now she has the full facts, she’s changed her mind. I doubt deluded sun readers persuaded her. 

As for the nurses, good. It’s about time we put our own money into training our own people instead of poaching nurses educated in Poland. Has anyone asked why? Maybe they’re more needed and better paid, with better working conditions at home now and they’d rather stay in their beautiful countries with their families than suffer a load of abuse and long hours in U.K. hospitals.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> As for the nurses, good. It's about time we put our own money into training our own people instead of poaching nurses educated in Poland. Has anyone asked why? Maybe they're more needed and better paid, with better working conditions at home now and they'd rather stay in their beautiful countries with their families than suffer a load of abuse and long hours in U.K. hospitals.


Doesn't match the leave campaign of the NHS is going to better off does it. Who says they will stay in their own countries? Surveys show doctors are more likely to move to Germany, Spain or Australia for example. As to has anyone asked why, for doctors according to a BMA survey top reasons given: UK's decision to leave the EU, a current negative attitude toward EU workers in the UK and continuing uncertainty over future immigration rules. You are also ignoring the "jump" since the referendum.



> Not really. It's speculative and nothing will happen about it. Clearly powerful people want us to be running scared and stay in the Eu, so we get leaks.


Clearly leaks wouldn't be needed if the government didn't need to hide things. Remember those "impact studies". Maybe you can explain why things supporting the government direction needs to be hidden. Why in a democracy shouldn't people be informed?


----------



## Elles

You think people should be informed of everything? I can think of many reasons we, the general public, shouldn’t be informed on numerous issues, including biased expert speculation. I don’t care about the leave campaign, or the remain campaign, or lies uttered by dishonest manipulative mouths. Why can countries like Poland and Spain train medical staff, but we can’t?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> biased expert speculation


If the report on the economic impact of Brexit is commissioned by the Department for Exiting the EU, what makes you think it is biased towards NOT leaving the EU?

It seems to me that if the DExEU have decided _not_ to issue the report, such that it has to be leaked to get into the public domain, that reinforces the suspicion that DExEU is, if anything, biased towards Leaving rather than Remaining. Doesn't it?

I accept, of course, that every report / prediction about the future by anyone must have a speculative element to it. Whether that be a dentist telling you that eating sweets and not cleaning your teeth will result in decay, or an economist telling you that increasing the costs of business will reduce the profits of that business.

What I don't understand is the logic of dismissing this recently leaked report as 'speculative' when it broadly agrees with the conclusions of practically every other report on the same subject.

What is it about this particular report that makes you conclude it is speculative and can therefore be ignored? What assumptions have they made with which you disagree? In dismissing their conclusions, where do you think their errors are made?


----------



## noushka05

The FTs graph of brexit demographics is really interesting. As a remain voter I'm bucking the trend in most area's - my social class, my area, my age, my [email protected] qualifications. I fit into only 2 sectors on the remain half - my support of the Green Party & my regular subscription to the Guardian.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Not really. It's speculative and nothing will happen about it. Clearly powerful people want us to be running scared and stay in the Eu, so we get leaks.
> 
> Btw. Teresa May is PM of Great Britain. No mean feat. She's in a position to be very well informed and no fool. People appear to believe that before the referendum she believed in the Eu and was keen to stay in. They now say that she wants to leave and deny to me that she's still a remainer. So if one of the most powerful and informed women in the U.K. wants to leave the Eu, despite previously being an ardent supporter, why is that do you think?
> 
> For her buddies to make more money? They're leaving the U.K. and we're all going to be poorer. Plus she wasn't worried about that before the referendum.
> 
> I would surmise that she's either still a remainer, or now she has the full facts, she's changed her mind. I doubt deluded sun readers persuaded her.
> 
> As for the nurses, good. It's about time we put our own money into training our own people instead of poaching nurses educated in Poland. Has anyone asked why? Maybe they're more needed and better paid, with better working conditions at home now and they'd rather stay in their beautiful countries with their families than suffer a load of abuse and long hours in U.K. hospitals.


Brexit has already made the UK a lot poorer even before we've left. We know we're going to have a lot less money to spend on our NHS & public services. We voted to make ourselves poorer.

Its about time we put our own money into training our own nurses??


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> I know that.
> 
> :Writing I was trying to be provocative by selecting text to suit my own agenda.


yeah I know . Nothing gets past me . I'm watching you, Zaros !


----------



## kimthecat

The EU want Eu nationals to be able to claim residency rights during the Transition period and Mrs may doesnt .
I thought that you had to live in an EU country for 5 years before you can claim? 
does that work the other way round . Will Uk citizens be able to claim residence in Eu countries during that time ?


----------



## KittenKong

Elles said:


> As for the nurses, good. It's about time we put our own money into training our own people instead of poaching nurses educated in Poland. Has anyone asked why? Maybe they're more needed and better paid, with better working conditions at home now and they'd rather stay in their beautiful countries with their families than suffer a load of abuse and long hours in U.K. hospitals.


You do realise it takes longer than 14 months to train nurses from scratch, or you think a "temporary blip" in staffing numbers will be worth it to achieve the Britain for the British land you desire so much? The UK should be proud people want to come to the UK to work in my opinion.

And "Britons'" move abroad to work too, not only in the EU but places like Australia or New Zealand.

Do you think they should lose their right to work outside the UK after Brexit?

I thought the Berlin wall came down years ago. Perhaps we should call it a British Wall to keep foreigners out and the British in.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> The EU want Eu nationals to be able to claim residency rights during the Transition period and Mrs may doesnt .
> I thought that you had to live in an EU country for 5 years before you can claim?
> does that work the other way round . Will Uk citizens be able to claim residence in Eu countries during that time ?


What one decides must work the other way round which is why I believe people would be worse than mad to emigrate within the EU at the present time, even though it's still technically allowed up to the end of March 2019.

If May insists on the deportation of EU citizens who've entered the UK after a particular time it's only right for the EU and their countries to do the same with expats.

It would be only fair and not what I would want, then I'm one of many who didn't vote for this. I'm sure not everyone who voted leave would want this either.

It's very sad.


----------



## Elles

No, I think that British government has got away with neglecting education for too long and if the Eu worked as it should our countries would all be equal. They aren’t. The Eu is building walls, but I suppose countries and people living outside of the Eu don’t matter.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> The FTs graph of brexit demographics is really interesting. As a remain voter I'm bucking the trend in most area's - my social class, my area, my age, my [email protected] qualifications. I fit into only 2 sectors on the remain half - my support of the Green Party & my regular subscription to the Guardian.


The obvious question wrt newspapers is whether the paper influences the views, or the reader chooses the paper because it reflects their existing views.

I guess it's a mixture of each.


----------



## StormyThai

One thing has become very clear to me reading this (and other political threads) is that the government (not just one party, the lot of them) have done an awesome job at creating a "them v's us" divide


----------



## Elles

I want to see a United World with true free trade based on equality and good standards. Remainers seem to think that means building a wall and eating bleached chicken. I’m becoming ashamed that I didn’t vote to leave the Eu. Many remainers seem to be incredibly negative, selfish, egotistical and judgemental. If they are the kind of people who voted to stay in the Eu, because they can’t see further than their nose and are concerned only about the U.K., I’d guess they’re also more nationalistic that many leavers too. 

They don’t seem to care about Eu nurses at all, so long as they stay and work in the British nhs. Yet they say our nhs is an underfunded shambles with stressed out, abused and underpaid staff. The nurses will probably have a much better quality of life working in Germany. We should be campaigning for a better quality nhs and a better distribution of funds from our own government, not blaming Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Your mind was made up before the referendum


Correct. Many other peoples minds where made up to before the referendum.


> When running towards an open cliff edge you apparantly have no clue that you need to stop


How would you know if the cliff is there if you don't have a map or sat nav on you.


> Shame that with Brexit you are responsible for others at the same time and will drag them along with you.


I was asked a question and answered it. Up until 5am (ish) on 24th June 2016 we were staying in the EU. I was surprised that the results turned out the way they did. As for responsibility for my vote, well I voted the way I said I was going to vote. As for being responsible for others because of my vote, they got to vote as well so no I am not responsible for others.



> Shame you don't actually answer the multiple questions posed isn't it. You ignore them as inconvenient.


I am not the one who is constantly trying to find justification for the result of the referendum and what is happening with the negotiations and rejecting everything anyone who voted opposite to the way I did says to me. Plus I owe no one an explaination for the way I voted. I am not the one living on edge letting everything going on at the moment bother me. Life goes on.

As regards to facts all I have read and heard is assumptions, predictions, theories, scaremongering and supposed facts being discredited because the theory behind those supposed facts found unreliable.

I don't dispute there was a slump in the pound, it will recover. I don't dispute there has been a reduction in the economy whilst we are still in the EU, it will pick up again. These things fluxuate over time anyway.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> I want to see a United World with true free trade based on equality and good standards.


Should have voted to remain yourself then. No let's leave the largest free trade group in the world shall we which has standards to provide a baseline to work towards equality within the group.



Elles said:


> We should be campaigning for a better quality nhs and a better distribution of funds from our own government, not blaming Brexit.


You place blame on what causes the problem. People were complaining before the referendum. Brexit is making it worse so let's call a spade a spade.



stockwellcat. said:


> How would you know if the cliff is there if you don't have a map or sat nav on you.


Well with brexit, you've looked at the map or sat nav. You've simply ignored them, you made up your mind after all. Who cares about what happens.



> As for being responsible for others because of my vote, they got to vote as well so no I am not responsible for others.


So what about those people who didn't get a vote? You *are* responsible for the consequences of your specific vote in a democratic process and how it affects others. I find it interesting that you don't accept the consequences and don't accept the responsibility.


----------



## Elles

I did vote remain. However I don’t believe the the European Union is working towards what you believe it is. Time will tell.


----------



## Elles

Brexit isn’t making it worse.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> I did vote remain. However I don't believe the the European Union is working towards what you believe it is. Time will tell.


Well leaving means we have no influence either doesn't it in terms of direction.



Elles said:


> Brexit isn't making it worse.


It is according to the evidence.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Well with brexit, you've looked at the map or sat nav. You've simply ignored them, you made up your mind after all. Who cares about what happens.
> 
> So what about those people who didn't get a vote? You *are* responsible for the consequences of your specific vote in a democratic process and how it affects others. I find it interesting that you don't accept the consequences and don't accept the responsibility.


So you don't think I am ignoring you I am replying to my bit of the post you included me in, I have answered your post in post 1539 and so as I am not repeating myself please read it as the answer to the above questions are there.


----------



## Elles

According to some short term projections and speculation and Brexit blaming. I don’t agree.


----------



## Elles

I don’t particularly want to have an influence from the inside of a body I don’t agree with. There is such a thing as outside influence.


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> I'm watching you, Zaros !


I'm sure you are.

And I'll be watching you, watching me, watching you.:Smug


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> If the report on the economic impact of Brexit is commissioned by the Department for Exiting the EU, what makes you think it is biased towards NOT leaving the EU?
> 
> It seems to me that if the DExEU have decided _not_ to issue the report, such that it has to be leaked to get into the public domain, that reinforces the suspicion that DExEU is, if anything, biased towards Leaving rather than Remaining. Doesn't it?
> 
> I accept, of course, that every report / prediction about the future by anyone must have a speculative element to it. Whether that be a dentist telling you that eating sweets and not cleaning your teeth will result in decay, or an economist telling you that increasing the costs of business will reduce the profits of that business.
> 
> What I don't understand is the logic of dismissing this recently leaked report as 'speculative' when it broadly agrees with the conclusions of practically every other report on the same subject.
> 
> What is it about this particular report that makes you conclude it is speculative and can therefore be ignored? What assumptions have they made with which you disagree? In dismissing their conclusions, where do you think their errors are made?


I am very suspicious of 'leaked' documents, unless they have a massive effect and someone ends up in hiding/exiled/imprisoned because they leaked it.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I want to see a United World with true free trade based on equality and good standards. Remainers seem to think that means building a wall and eating bleached chicken. I'm becoming ashamed that I didn't vote to leave the Eu. Many remainers seem to be incredibly negative, selfish, egotistical and judgemental. If they are the kind of people who voted to stay in the Eu, because they can't see further than their nose and are concerned only about the U.K., I'd guess they're also more nationalistic that many leavers too.
> 
> They don't seem to care about Eu nurses at all, so long as they stay and work in the British nhs. Yet they say our nhs is an underfunded shambles with stressed out, abused and underpaid staff. The nurses will probably have a much better quality of life working in Germany. We should be campaigning for a better quality nhs and a better distribution of funds from our own government, not blaming Brexit.


No its a simple fact that if we do a trade deal with the USA we will have to harmonise our high standards with their low standards. The USA will flood the market with cheap goods & our farmers will be unable to compete unless they drop their standards. How is it selfish to not want to see a race to the bottom for our standards?  Have you given any consideration to the 3 million who have made this country their home & how brexit is affecting them? Do you honestly believe they're happy with the referendum result?

What about those EU nurses who have CHOSEN to live here & now no longer feel welcome?. That's the great thing about freedom of movement, people can live & work where they want. I believe in it.

This EU nurse is leaving because of the xenophobia brexit has unleashed.

*BBC Radio 5 live*‏Verified [email protected]*bbc5live* Jan 16


"I've stopped fighting for Britain" Olaya has worked as an NHS nurse for fifteen years. Now she and her family are moving to Spain 
because of the "unchallenged abuse" she's received since the #*Brexit* vote

I like how you keep ignoring the peer reviewed Lancet study on the devastating effect brexit will have on our NHS.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> I am very suspicious of 'leaked' documents, unless they have a massive effect and someone ends up in hiding/exiled/imprisoned because they leaked it.


Steve Baker is another brexit supporting conspiracy theorist. I wonder why

This is awesome by the FDA union. Shame on Baker, May should sack him!
_
To stand at the despatch box and refuse to challenge a half-baked conspiracy theory about the civil service is the height of irresponsibility from a serving minister": @*FDAGenSec*'s full response to Minister Steve Baker -
_


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I am very suspicious of 'leaked' documents, unless they have a massive effect and someone ends up in hiding/exiled/imprisoned because they leaked it.


I can appreciate that.

I think I am more inclined to give it credence because its conclusions are in the same ballpark as practically every other reputable study I've seen into Brexit's economic effect.


----------



## noushka05

Boom!
_
Rees-Mogg blows two Brexit arguments with one "1066" quote
_


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...os-may-ends-eu-free-movement-next-march#img-1


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> I want to see a United World with true free trade based on equality and good standards. Remainers seem to think that means building a wall and eating bleached chicken. I'm becoming ashamed that I didn't vote to leave the Eu. Many remainers seem to be incredibly negative, selfish, egotistical and judgemental. If they are the kind of people who voted to stay in the Eu, because they can't see further than their nose and are concerned only about the U.K., I'd guess they're also more nationalistic that many leavers too.
> 
> They don't seem to care about Eu nurses at all, so long as they stay and work in the British nhs. Yet they say our nhs is an underfunded shambles with stressed out, abused and underpaid staff. The nurses will probably have a much better quality of life working in Germany. We should be campaigning for a better quality nhs and a better distribution of funds from our own government, not blaming Brexit.


I think that might be a little unfair on some of those who are pointing out the downsides of what the top Brexiteers are proposing.

But I too want to see a united world - as I hope you know by now! - and I guess that implies completely free trade; though its introduction would (will?) need to be carefully managed.

And while I think the EU is a very imperfect template, I really do think it's a step on the way. One from which we can learn and move forwards towards the unity that both of us want.

Leaving, by definition, disunites.


----------



## Arnie83

I never thought I'd do this, but I'll make one point in favour of Farage. He spent 25 years (seems longer) trying to get us out of the EU, and if money was his driver not only was it very foresightful plan, but he could just have sat quietly on his bum in the EU Parliament and made a tidy, and ongoing fortune.


----------



## Elles

That is the government's plan isn't it? I've been saying it all along.  @KittenKong

Of course that generalises about people who voted leave. Some wanted to leave before we even joined it, they weren't listening to any referendum lies. The reason there even was a vote was because many members of the public expressed a wish to leave the Eu.

The police in my area come down hard on any racist abuse. We have zero tolerance here. I see we're back to the accusations of racism and xenophobia though. Brexit hasn't unleashed racism and xenophobia. I spoke to a Polish couple who have lived here a number of years, they said they've never been subjected to it. They aren't nurses working with drunks on Saturday night though. Nurses are subjected to all kinds of abuse by drunken idiots at the weekend. If it's not their nationality that's insulted, it'll be their weight, gender or hair colour. I can probably find you a redhead who's been called a fat ginger *******. Or an Irish nurse called a thick paddy. Did you see the programme about the lgbt community and the kind of abuse they've suffered for years? Not just here, but worldwide.


----------



## Elles

A friend of mine designs and sells goods made here and in India. With the help of a young Indian guy, they set up a small manufacturing workshop with mod cons, air con etc, good pay, hours and conditions and some of her designs are made there. The Indian guy won an award at Beta this year and they are incredibly proud. She’s white British, but believes in fair chances, regardless of who you are or where you live. Some of her products are made in the U.K. too. Why does she need the Eu? Big business, politicians, bureaucrats, the financial sector, might need the Eu. Our universities and research centres can collude with the best in the world without it. I looked at where some Eu money has gone and I’m singularly unimpressed. Imo it needs to go. We can all do better collectively without it. 

I don’t doubt that in 10, maybe 20 years some people will be saying they’re glad we left and some will still be saying we’d have been so much better inside it. I think we pretty much all want the same thing, we just don’t agree on how to get it. I think the memes, the insults, the cartoons, all just make the Remain voters look bad. The intelligent posts with personal thoughts and opinions are the only ones worth reading imo.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> The police in my area come down hard on any racist abuse. We have zero tolerance here. I see we're back to the accusations of racism and xenophobia though. Brexit hasn't unleashed racism and xenophobia. I spoke to a Polish couple who have lived here a number of years, they said they've never been subjected to it. They aren't nurses working with drunks on Saturday night though.


Too bad I know quite a few from Germany who now live in the UK who have been subject to abuse. Again you ignore the actual facts and statistics which showed a marked rise in racist abuse and hate crimes with the referendum. I suppose they can't be trusted either. Let's simply ignore the idea of cause and effect as it's inconvenient.

As for universities etc, nothing has stopped scientists in the past colluding with others. They simply decided EU was far better to work with and within. There's reasons the vast majority wanted to stay in the EU and not simply for funding.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> I never thought I'd do this, but I'll make one point in favour of Farage. He spent 25 years (seems longer) trying to get us out of the EU, and if money was his driver not only was it very foresightful plan, but he could just have sat quietly on his bum in the EU Parliament and made a tidy, and ongoing fortune.


Don't worry about Nigel he was bankrolled by billionaires & has his EU pension for life. If he had a shred of decency he would refuse the pension but then hes a shameless, self-serving hypocrite.


Elles said:


> That is the government's plan isn't it? I've been saying it all along.  @KittenKong
> 
> Of course that generalises about people who voted leave. Some wanted to leave before we even joined it, they weren't listening to any referendum lies. The reason there even was a vote was because many members of the public expressed a wish to leave the Eu.
> 
> The police in my area come down hard on any racist abuse. We have zero tolerance here. I see we're back to the accusations of racism and xenophobia though. Brexit hasn't unleashed racism and xenophobia. I spoke to a Polish couple who have lived here a number of years, they said they've never been subjected to it. They aren't nurses working with drunks on Saturday night though. Nurses are subjected to all kinds of abuse by drunken idiots at the weekend. If it's not their nationality that's insulted, it'll be their weight, gender or hair colour. I can probably find you a redhead who's been called a fat ginger *******. Or an Irish nurse called a thick paddy. Did you see the programme about the lgbt community and the kind of abuse they've suffered for years? Not just here, but worldwide. That'll be the fault of Brexit too I expect.
> 
> Let's not vote against the Eu, because then the police, law and government will do nothing about racist abuse, whether physical or verbal. That's not Brexit sorry. Down to us as individuals and our lawmakers. The Eu isn't going to save anyone from racist idiots.


Brexit has unleashed racism & xenophobia. Hate crime has spiked since brexit as predicted it would. One of the main reasons remainers on this thread, if I recall, were voting to remain.


----------



## noushka05

And talking of Nigel - according to the UN it was politicians like him who fuelled the rise in hate crimes. Surprise, surprise.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ans-rise-hate-crimes-brexit-vote-un-committee


----------



## Elles

We cannot blame Brexit. Racists were racists before any referendum. Before Europe existed. Our governing bodies and lawmakers need to deal with it. Neither the Eu, nor Brexit can be made scapegoats over the action or inaction of individuals.


----------



## cheekyscrip

We had a leaving do for my very good friends, actually they had job offers here as good as in Poland, but they decided it is time to go back.
We all discussed who wants or has to stay, who plans to return.
It was half and half, really only those who are married to Brits think of staying, those with older kids.
The rest is looking into EU or back home.

Most of my friends are wells qualified, young people, definitely not benefits seekers, many in health care, IT, finance so easy to move.
Wish they were staying


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> We cannot blame Brexit. Racists were racists before any referendum. Before Europe existed. Our governing bodies and lawmakers need to deal with it. Neither the Eu, nor Brexit can be made scapegoats over the action or inaction of individuals.


Racists existed true. Before the referendum however they were not accepted and were told it was not acceptable. Leave campaign stated that "foreigners were responsible for all the wrongs in the country". They pushed the nationalist agenda (not patriotism). They effectively condoned racism, no shock racist acts rose is it with a background of ignore facts, blame the foreigners. Technically speaking you are right, nothing to do with brexit by definition. It's simply the racism of the campaign made it part of brexit and people's expectations. It has a lot to do with why people voted to leave and the continuing resentment towards foreigners. They are to blame for all the problems. Even the EU is to blame and bullying us for the fact that we can't have membership perks without membership during the negotiating process. Who would of thought that would be the case, we are British after all, don't they know who won the war !


----------



## Arnie83

cheekyscrip said:


> We had a leaving do for my very good friends, actually they had job offers here as good as in Poland, but they decided it is time to go back.
> We all discussed who wants or has to stay, who plans to return.
> It was half and half, really only those who are married to Brits think of staying, those with older kids.
> The rest is looking into EU or back home.
> 
> Most of my friends are wells qualified, young people, definitely not benefits seekers, many in health care, IT, finance so easy to move.
> Wish they were staying


Do you think there will be a significant exodus from Gibraltar?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> We cannot blame Brexit. Racists were racists before any referendum. Before Europe existed. Our governing bodies and lawmakers need to deal with it. Neither the Eu, nor Brexit can be made scapegoats over the action or inaction of individuals.


We can blame brexit. The leave campaign & the subsequent referendum result emboldened racists - just as Trump & his foreigner scapegoating campaign has emboldened racists in the USA.


----------



## noushka05

It didn't seem appropriate to like your post @cheekyscrip. Really sad to hear your friends are leaving x


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> We can blame brexit. The leave campaign & the subsequent referendum result emboldened racists - just as Trump & his foreigner scapegoating campaign has emboldened racists in the USA.


Or Putin emboldened racism in Russia, horrid - " Law and Justice " risen antisemitism antimuslim anti gay movements in Poland, total shame.

All they do is to channel the anger against " the others ", while failing banks pay their CEOs millions in bonuses?

And you blame the EU nationals, or Jews( like in Poland or Russia) ?
Not those who pay millions to manipulate public opinion?
So? Who takes control of your minds?

I mean generally, not any of you in particular.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 343952
> 
> 
> This has to be seen to be believed.
> Can't post a link but can be found on Facebook.


What is she saying ?


----------



## KittenKong

Deleted as perhaps it's not a good idea to share a TV News report showing members of the public expressing xenophobic views. Even if in a negative sense it can be misinterpreted by some as a positive. 


At least the interviewer challenged the views expressed.


----------



## Elles

I’m sure if we look for them we can find equally evil or stupid people who voted to stay in. It’s like believing everyone who votes or represents the Green Party are caring, environmentalist vegans, everyone who votes labour is a commie socialist and everyone who votes Tory are deluded, rich, or both. We can stereotype every group and we’d be wrong on all counts.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Or Putin emboldened racism in Russia, horrid - " Law and Justice " risen antisemitism antimuslim anti gay movements in Poland, total shame.
> 
> All they do is to channel the anger against " the others ", while failing banks pay their CEOs millions in bonuses?
> 
> And you blame the EU nationals, or Jews( like in Poland or Russia) ?
> Not those who pay millions to manipulate public opinion?
> So? Who takes control of your minds?
> 
> I mean generally, not any of you in particular.
> 
> I


The oldest tick in the book is the divide & rule tactic. In the UKs case the hard right used migrants & the EU as their scapegoats.












Elles said:


> I'm sure if we look for them we can find equally evil or stupid people who voted to stay in. It's like believing everyone who votes or represents the Green Party are caring, environmentalist vegans, everyone who votes labour is a commie socialist and everyone who votes Tory are deluded, rich, or both. We can stereotype every group and we'd be wrong on all counts.


But people would have to be pretty blinkered not to know what those parties stand for, no? And the leave campaign was an anti foreigner campaign. Of course that does not mean everyone who voted leave is a racist! But all the racist parties supported leave. And one MP was assassinated by a British fascist terrorist for her opposition to brexit. Brexit has unleased hate & divided this country, whether you choose to believe it or not Elles. I've seen Trump supporters on twitter in the same state of denial Strange times we're living in indeed.

Our once tolerant welcoming country has gone. I'm so glad I played no part in this.

Not in my name Mrs May!

*Andrew Adonis*‏Verified [email protected]*Andrew_Adonis* 21h21 hours ago 

Statement by the PM that 'we' have got to take rights away from EU citizens next May because 'that is what the British people voted for' is utterly shameful. The face was Mrs May, the words Mr Farage.


Shocked that Mrs May said existing rights of EU citizens in UK won't be fully respected after next May. What will HMG do if other European governments start mistreating British citizens? Big step backwards for civilised European conduct.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> Do you think there will be a significant exodus from Gibraltar?


Depends on the frontier issues and if our financial sector will have access to EU.
EU threatens to get us into Black List of Tax Havens though in comparison with Malta and others we are one of the best.
Hard border means less tourists.
Problem with workforce. Change to taxes or regulations would damage our financial services and gaming sector - then we lose most of our jobs.
Some are leaving now, some are looking for offers, those who cannot move- have built s business there- wait?
Worried.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> *Andrew Adonis*‏Verified [email protected]*Andrew_Adonis* 21h21 hours ago
> Shocked that Mrs May said existing rights of EU citizens in UK won't be fully respected after next May.


She did not say that. He is a liar. Fact!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> *Andrew Adonis*‏Verified [email protected]*Andrew_Adonis* 21h21 hours ago
> 
> Statement by the PM that 'we' have got to take rights away from EU citizens next May because 'that is what the British people voted for' is utterly shameful. The face was Mrs May, the words Mr Farage.
> 
> 
> Shocked that Mrs May said existing rights of EU citizens in UK won't be fully respected after next May. What will HMG do if other European governments start mistreating British citizens? Big step backwards for civilised European conduct.


Theresa May didn't say that.


>


Your source of information (The Express) we have been told by remainers is an unreliable source of information and now you use it to prove your point when there isn't a point to be made.

I predict another day of drivel and scaremongering from the remain side.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> I predict another day of drivel and scaremongering from the remain side.


I don't pretend to be a prophet like you Stockwell, but, from the tone of the above post, I predict yet another day of ridicule and snide remarks from Brexiteers.:Facepalm

How's the dating game, incidentally?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Zaros said:


> I don't pretend to be a prophet like you Stockwell, but, from the tone of the above post, I predict yet another day of ridicule and snide remarks from Brexiteers.:Facepalm


I don't pretend to be a prophet, it's the remainers who seem to think they can see into the future.

No snid remarks from me. I am allowed to comment just like everyone else and defend myself.


> How's the dating game, incidentally?


Fine thanks for asking.


----------



## Zaros

stockwellcat. said:


> *I don't pretend to be a prophet*


Oh but, wise soothsayer, you did. :Meh



stockwellcat. said:


> I predict another day of drivel and scaremongering from the remain side.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> She did not say that. He is a liar. Fact!


Her exact words were this I believe? - "a matter for negotiation for the implementation period, but I'm clear there is a difference between those who came prior to us leaving and those who will come when they know the UK is leaving." "What we're doing now is doing the job that the British people asked the government to do which is to deliver on Brexit," she said. "In doing that they did not vote for nothing to change when we come out of the EU."

What do you think she means by her words then? Seems crystal clear to me Adonis & the EU.

Guy Verhofstadt : "_Citizens' rights during the transition is not negotiable. We will not accept that there are two sets of rights for EU citizens. For the transition to work, it must mean a continuation of the existing acquis with no exceptions."
_



stockwellcat. said:


> Theresa May didn't say that.
> 
> Your source of information (The Express) we have been told by remainers is an unreliable source of information and now you use it to prove your point when there isn't a point to be made.
> 
> I predict another day of drivel and scaremongering from the remain side.


Omg do I really have to explain to you the reason I posted it??


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Omg do I really have to explain to you the reason I posted it??


As Stockwell continually harps on about not having to explain himself, Noush', then with immediate response to the above question, I see no earthly reason or justification why you should have to either.:Smug


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Her exact words were this I believe? - "a matter for negotiation for the implementation period, but I'm clear there is a difference between those who came prior to us leaving and those who will come when they know the UK is leaving." "What we're doing now is doing the job that the British people asked the government to do which is to deliver on Brexit," she said. "In doing that they did not vote for nothing to change when we come out of the EU."
> 
> What do you think she means by her words then? Seems crystal clear to me Adonis & the EU.
> 
> Guy Verhofstadt : "_Citizens' rights during the transition is not negotiable. We will not accept that there are two sets of rights for EU citizens. For the transition to work, it must mean a continuation of the existing acquis with no exceptions."_


 What it means to me is this. This does not affect EU citizens living here currently it is talking about after we have left the EU on the 29th March 2019 EU citizens wishing to come and live in the UK will be subjected to the new immigration rules. We won't be in the EU so yes those coming to the UK from the EU after Brexit day should be abiding to the UK's new immigration laws as we won't be in the EU. Again just to reiterate EU citizens currently living over or come to live over here up until 29th March 2019 will have there rights protected until after the time frame that was agreed with the EU. Hope that clarifies the meaning of what was said?

Lord Adonis is a trouble maker and openly said he was going to be as he is dead set against leaving.



> Omg do I really have to explain to you the reason I posted it??


Well yes because you give us grief for posting the Daily Express :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> I don't pretend to be a prophet like you Stockwell, but, from the tone of the above post, I predict yet another day of ridicule and snide remarks from Brexiteers.:Facepalm


and we have all the mocking cartoons to look forward too !

@stockwellcat It's Groundhog day today , Rather apt for this thread !


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> @stockwellcat It's Groundhog day today ,


I thought it was


----------



## KittenKong

May keeps bleating on about what the, "British people want", yet she shies away from them. The pro Brexit tabloid press' letters pages do not represent the majority of "British" people though obviously she believes they do.

How long do Brexiteers believe the UK will last after Brexit? The world doesn't evolve around London and England itself.

This has echoes of Thatcher implementing the Poll Tax in Scotland a year before the rest of the UK.

Perhaps Trump should come to the UK and declare Edinburgh the capital of the UK!

"England tells Scotland and NI, "We won, you lost, get over it". A nice hard border for you NI. We voted for it even if you didn't"".

The British Nationalists on the forum will argue the entire UK will rejoice on Brexit day and the UK will strengthen.

This I doubt very much.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> As Stockwell continually harps on about not having to explain himself, Noush', then with immediate response to the above question, I see no earthly reason or justification why you should have to either.:Smug


True But I'm sure he know deep down I posted it to show how the right wing gutter press are thrilled with Mays plan 



stockwellcat. said:


> What it means to me is this. This does not affect EU citizens living here currently it is talking about after we have left the EU on the 29th March 2019 EU citizens wishing to come and live in the UK will be subjected to the new immigration rules. We won't be in the EU so yes those coming to the UK from the EU after Brexit day should be abiding to the UK's new immigration laws as we won't be in the EU. Again just to reiterate EU citizens currently living over or come to live over here up until 29th March 2019 will have there rights protected until after the time frame that was agreed with the EU. Hope that clarifies the meaning of what was said?
> 
> Lord Adonis is a trouble maker and openly said he was going to be as he is dead set against leaving.
> 
> Well yes because you give us grief for posting the Daily Express :Hilarious


Show me a reference where she says *'after we have left'*?

Because this blatantly doesn't -_ but I'm clear there is a difference between those who came *prior to us leaving* and those *who will come when they know the UK is leaving*." _What does that mean then? To me it means the rights of EU nationals coming into this country during the transition period.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> May keeps bleating on about what the, "British people want", yet she shies away from them. The pro Brexit tabloid press' letters pages do not represent the majority of "British" people though obviously she believes they do.
> 
> How long do Brexiteers believe the UK will last after Brexit? The world doesn't evolve around London and England itself.
> 
> This has echoes of Thatcher implementing the Poll Tax in Scotland a year before the rest of the UK.
> 
> Perhaps Trump should come to the UK and declare Edinburgh the capital of the UK!
> 
> "England tells Scotland and NI, "We won, you lost, get over it". A nice hard border for you NI. We voted for it even if you didn't"".
> 
> The British Nationalists on the forum will argue the entire UK will rejoice on Brexit day and the UK will strengthen.
> 
> This I doubt very much.
> View attachment 343971





KittenKong said:


> May keeps bleating on about what the, "British people want", yet she shies away from them. The pro Brexit tabloid press' letters pages do not represent the majority of "British" people though obviously she believes they do.
> 
> How long do Brexiteers believe the UK will last after Brexit? The world doesn't evolve around London and England itself.
> 
> This has echoes of Thatcher implementing the Poll Tax in Scotland a year before the rest of the UK.
> 
> Perhaps Trump should come to the UK and declare Edinburgh the capital of the UK!
> 
> "England tells Scotland and NI, "We won, you lost, get over it". A nice hard border for you NI. We voted for it even if you didn't"".
> 
> The British Nationalists on the forum will argue the entire UK will rejoice on Brexit day and the UK will strengthen.
> 
> This I doubt very much.
> View attachment 343971


Well how odd.
Your map makes it look like that no one in Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales voted leave.

Shall I give you an up dated map of all those that believe we should leave the EU now.








See the difference. That's right there are people that want us to leave the EU in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.


----------



## noushka05

Me too!

*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider*  1h1 hour ago

*Just so proud of my government right now.
*


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> True But I'm sure he know deep down I posted it to show how the right wing gutter press are thrilled with Mays plan
> 
> Show me a reference where she says *'after we have left'*?
> 
> Because this blatantly doesn't -_ but I'm clear there is a difference between those who came *prior to us leaving* and those *who will come when they know the UK is leaving*." _What does that mean then? To me it means the rights of EU nationals coming into this country during the transition period.


The transition period if we get it will be after we leave the EU. TM is right as everything regarding the transition period is open for negotiation. It's another question if the transition period will happen.


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> True But I'm sure he know deep down I posted it to show how the right wing gutter press are thrilled with Mays plan .


Did you by any chance read the following quote, Noush'?



StormyThai said:


> One thing has become very clear to me reading this (and other political threads) is that the government (not just one party, the lot of them) have done an awesome job at creating a "them v's us" divide


In evidence, they've achieved the same result on this forum too.

Such a pity.


----------



## noushka05

stockwellcat. said:


> The transition period if we get it will be after we leave the EU. TM is right as everything regarding the transition period is open for negotiation. It's another question if the transition period will happen.


She is reneging on the deal she made with EU. Please spare a thought for all the people this will affect SWC.
_
In today's #*TanjasDaily* I talk about how UK govt has thrown #*citizensrights* under the bus yet again.
But I also send big thanks to @*The3Million* and @*BritishInEurope* for all they have done in Brussels 
@*EUparliament* today--you're my heroes
_


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> She is reneging on the deal she made with EU. Please spare a thought for all the people this will affect SWC.
> _
> In today's #*TanjasDaily* I talk about how UK govt has thrown #*citizensrights* under the bus yet again.
> But I also send big thanks to @*The3Million* and @*BritishInEurope* for all they have done in Brussels
> @*EUparliament* today--you're my heroes
> _


The phase 1 deal according to the EU was not finialised, only enough had been done to move to phase 2. There are still open issues that still need resolving from phase 1 and one of them was EU citizens rights after Brexit and another was the Irish border. Again the phase 1 negotiations were never finished.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Did you by any chance read the following quote, Noush'?
> 
> In evidence, they've achieved the same result on this forum too.
> 
> Such a pity.


Yes I did. Brexit has divided people everywhere. Non more so than the younger generation who brexit will affect the most but most wanted to remain - & the older generation who brexit will affect the least but mostly voted leave.



stockwellcat. said:


> The phase 1 deal according to the EU was not finialised, only enough had been done to move to phase 2. There are still open issues that still need resolving from phase 1 and one of them was EU citizens rights after Brexit and another was the Irish border. Again the phase 1 negotiations were never finished.


This affects real people. Please watch the video linked to above


----------



## noushka05




----------



## Zaros

The ill feeling that your government has generated has spilled over here in all of the Brexit themed threads. 
This forum is a shadow of its former glowing self and it's all down to the insistence of this incurable obsession to discuss a thing without physical shape or known boundaries.



noushka05 said:


> Yes I did. Brexit has divided people everywhere. Non more so than the younger generation who brexit will affect the most but most wanted to remain - & the older generation who brexit will affect the least but mostly voted leave.


It won't affect many of them, Noush' because they'll be in the cold, cold ground or smoke and ashes.


----------



## Bisbow

noushka05 said:


> Yes I did. Brexit has divided people everywhere. Non more so than the younger generation who brexit will affect the most but most wanted to remain - & the older generation who brexit will affect the least but mostly voted leave.


But no one is driving the wedge in s hard as you remainers on here are

When are you going to admit you don't know what will happen any more than we do
At least we are honest enough to too admit that, no one knows for sure


----------



## KittenKong

This came as a shock, yet a very welcome one.

Seeing Sunderland had one of the highest Leave victories in England this is evidence people do change their minds.


----------



## Elles

Is this really necessary? This is petforums, not ‘have I got news for you’, linking anything and everything you can find on twitter, Facebook and reading the press you people deny reading. 

Regarding racism, not so long ago a racist could say ‘I hope you die, n*’. And nothing would be done about it. Today it would be reported as a hate incident and logged. People are encouraged to come forward, as they should be.

Yes, some papers jump gleefully on the statistics, but it was said at the time that people are being encouraged to come forward if subjected to hate crime, or incident. It shouldn’t be swept under the carpet, or behind closed doors as it has been.

It’s difficult to know who was encouraged in expressing their racist views because people voted to leave the Eu and who was encouraged to report abuse by recent policy and publicity.

Apparently statistics and government bodies lie, unless what they say suits a particular agenda.


----------



## Arnie83

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 343980


It's interesting, isn't it. Seems to me that the best economic course would be to stay in the single market / customs union, and at the same time increase our trade with the likes of China, USA etc. with whom we don't have deals through the EU but with whom we are quite able to trade.

A shame that isn't on the table.


----------



## Elles

[Quote deleted]

Can't you see the bombardment of scaremongering and drivel from our/your side? I doubt it's meant as from you personally, or me, though we both voted remain.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Many young voters voted leave on the 23rd June 2016 but because they received a tirade of abuse online from remain supporters they decided to remain quiet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...-in-days-after-european-union-referendum-vote

Many young people backed leave as well, so why pick on the older generation and blame them for Brexit when your facts on this issue are a little wrong? Also to claim that those that voted leave are uneducated and thick is also wrong because many leave voters where University Students, Doctors, Police men and women, fire brigade personel, lecturers, nurses, bankers, MP's, Lord's, Barristers etc.


----------



## KittenKong

No doubt Maybot will repeat like a stuck record, "It's what the British people voted for".

People deliberately voting to make themselves poorer is certainly news to me.

Bring back rationing and the ration books. It's the will of the people you see.....


----------



## KittenKong

I know a few young people who voted leave incidentally and people older than myself who voted stay in the EU.


----------



## Elles

Remain campaigners get away with insulting leave voters. It seems to be quite acceptable these days to throw a tirade of abuse at someone for their decision to vote leave.

We were asked whether we want to stay in the Eu, or leave it. Some said the Eu isn’t perfect, but let’s stay in and try to improve it. Others said the Eu isn’t perfect, I think we’ll be fine outside it and voted leave.

The Remain voters screamed foul, none binding referendum, leave voters are stupid, uninformed, racist, selfish, believe lies and propaganda.

Leave voters said omg, we voted to leave the Eu, not nuke it.


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> Continue to trivialise, by all means.


and you or anyone else here never do that ?

It's called humour , Zaros . You use it often .



> The ill feeling that your government has generated has spilled over here in all of the Brexit themed threads.
> This forum is a shadow of its former glowing self and it's all down to the insistence of this incurable obsession to discuss a thing without physical shape or known boundaries.


Yes , I agree , I don't understand this obsession but here we are all taking part .

There's a lot of ill feeling in a lot of threads where we have differences of opinions on all sorts of topics.


----------



## kimthecat

I got what you were saying.  There were calls on Twitter to stop old people from voting . They're be sending us off to Dignitis next.


----------



## Zaros

Insults are cheap and run free from malicious tongues like drool from a Saint Bernard's sloppy gob.
What concerns me more are the groundless accusations that slip just as easily from the venomous tongues of the so called preachers of righteousness.
And these threads have not been without their foundless accusations of members.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> No doubt Maybot will repeat like a stuck record, "It's what the British people voted for".
> 
> People deliberately voting to make themselves poorer is certainly news to me.
> 
> Bring back rationing and the ration books. It's the will of the people you see.....
> View attachment 343981


Yes, it is what the British people voted for, you cannot deny that


----------



## Goblin

Yet those "old and wise" cannot even explain and provide evidence to support their decision to leave whereas those who support remain can and do. Strange that isn't it. Maybe the young who use evidence to make decisions rather than those "old and wise" who use lies take their responsibilty to vote more seriously. It's the young which are going to have to live with the decisions made today.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Can't you see the bombardment of scaremongering and drivel from our/your side? I doubt it's meant as from you personally, or me, though we both voted remain.


Well I'd like to think that, since I do try. But the implication, well, statement actually, was that they got "nothing else" so I thought I'd better check.

I'm always happy to explain what I say, though I'd like a bit more discussion. My questions are genuine attempts to get as close to facts as we can in this subject, but very often they are just ignored.


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> Insults are cheap and run free from malicious tongues like drool from a Saint Bernard's sloppy gob.
> What concerns me more are the groundless accusations that slip just as easily from the venomous tongues of the so called preachers of righteousness.
> And these threads have not been without their foundless accusations of members.


and have these preachers of righteousness been reported to the Mods ? If people have been insulted they will deal with it and perhaps ban them .


----------



## Elles

It’s probably because there are few facts as yet. We haven’t left yet and the government swing left and right every time the wind changes. We’ll only get the results when the race is over and even then there’ll be supposition and blaming. Until then it’s all projections and assumptions, a lot of which is biased from people who benefit from the Eu. With links from newspapers like the Express, caricatures and memes and names like Maybot bandied about and leave voters under attack from lightly veiled insult and on the defensive, with their reasons for voting leave ridiculed, or dismissed, its hard to have a sensible discussion imo.


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> It's called humour , Zaros . You use it often .


So, in the attempt to justify your own ends and excuse yourself, you want to use me as an example do you?

Strange thing is this creature we call 'humour'. It's a bit of a Chimera



kimthecat said:


> and have these preachers of righteousness been reported to the Mods ? If people have been insulted they will deal with it and perhaps ban them .


All accusations (outright provocative lies) remain in place so that other readers can discover for themselves, who the person behind the post truly is when they, the author, wish to claim the contrary.:Smuggrin


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> and have these preachers of righteousness been reported to the Mods ? If people have been insulted they will deal with it and perhaps ban them .


I thought comparing stockwellcat to a 'poor deluded woman' was a step too far personally.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well I found this poll done in 2012 said only 30% thought EU membership was a good thing.
> 
> View attachment 343987
> 
> 
> Poll findings here are attached in PDF format.


That comes as no surprise seeing how the public have been drip fed anti EEC/ EU propaganda for as long as I can remember.
(As an odd irony many are seeing the benefits of EU membership for the first time now the UK are withdrawing.)

As a result it was inevitable Leave would win if a referendum were to be held just as a referendum to bring back conscription into military service for school leavers and the death penalty would no doubt win as well.


----------



## Arnie83

Goblin said:


> Yet those "old and wise" cannot even explain and provide evidence to support their decision to leave whereas those who support remain can and do. Strange that isn't it. Maybe the young who use evidence to make decisions rather than those "old and wise" who use lies take their responsibilty to vote more seriously. It's the young which are going to have to live with the decisions made today.


We really do have to accept that 'Taking back Control' is sufficient reason for some, or perhaps many, and that economic factors are at best secondary.

I think it is regrettable that people think that way, but that's just my opinion, and it differs from that of those who do.

Asking for empirical economic evidence to support a vote for 'Leave' will never produce anything in those cases.


----------



## Zaros

Elles said:


> I thought comparing stockwellcat to a 'poor deluded woman' was a step too far personally.


And who might that have been?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Thanks for making me aware of the comment @kimthecat and @Elles. I don't recall coming across it as this Brexit debate thing has been going on for over 2 years now. If it was recent I must have been preoccupied to notice it but I cannot be bothered going backwards through this thread or any other to find it.

Thank you both.


----------



## Elles

People have sons and daughters they don’t want to join the army. People have sons and daughters they are proud of for joining the army. Neither they, nor the army would want forced conscription. For what?

The Eu is better off without the British if Brits want the death penalty and conscription. Seems to me British people are so bad we should be on our own and have no influence over anyone.

Taking back control for many meant being able to vote in a government that is answerable to the British, rather than the Eu. It didn’t mean the government taking back control.


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> It's probably because there are few facts as yet. We haven't left yet and the government swing left and right every time the wind changes. *We'll only get the results when the race is over *and even then there'll be supposition and blaming. Until then it's all projections and assumptions, a lot of which is biased from people who benefit from the Eu. With links from newspapers like the Express, caricatures and memes and names like Maybot bandied about and leave voters under attack from lightly veiled insult and on the defensive, with their reasons for voting leave ridiculed, or dismissed, its hard to have a sensible discussion imo.


I really don't think we will, though.

My best guess is that there will be some deal put together that mitigates the economic damage of leaving the EU. (And there WILL be damage.)

But I don't foresee a recession in the UK (unless the world economy reverses its current boom).

UK GDP will continue to grow. Leavers will say; "See? So much for scaremongering!" Remainers will say "But if we had remained, growth would be higher!" Leavers will say "Prove it! Speculation!"

And round we go again. Ad infinitum.


----------



## Elles

Arnie83 said:


> I really don't think we will, though.
> 
> My best guess is that there will be some deal put together that mitigates the economic damage of leaving the EU. (And there WILL be damage.)
> 
> But I don't foresee a recession in the UK (unless the world economy reverses its current boom).
> 
> UK GDP will continue to grow. Leavers will say; "See? So much for scaremongering!" Remainers will say "But if we had remained, growth would be higher!" Leavers will say "Prove it! Speculation!"
> 
> And round we go again. Ad infinitum.


Spot on.


----------



## KittenKong

Bisbow said:


> Yes, it is what the British people voted for, you cannot deny that
> 
> The rest of your post is too stupid to bother with


I do most strongly deny that. 48% + didn't for a start. Most that did vote leave were English and Welsh.

So half of Britain voted leave while the other half voted to stay.

It's the will of the English and Welsh people to impose the result on Scotland and NI who'll undoubtedly suffer the most especially with the return of the hard border with the latter.

Gibraltar must suffer too because it's the, "Will of the British people" even if 97% there voted to stay in the EU!

Goes to show how England considers itself to be the superior country of the UK.

Unlike you Mr Bisbow I don't consider the possibility of the UK breaking up too stupid to bother with. I believe it could be a possibility in the not too distant future.


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> I do most strongly deny that. 48% + didn't for a start. Most that did vote leave were English and Welsh.
> 
> So half of Britain voted leave while the other half voted to stay.
> 
> It's the will of the English and Welsh people to impose the result on Scotland and NI who'll undoubtedly suffer the most especially with the return of the hard border with the latter.
> 
> Goes to show how England considers itself to be the superior country of the UK.


It was still a majority, many things with a much smaller majority have come to pass


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> So, in the attempt to justify your own ends and excuse yourself, you want to use me as an example do you?


Excuse myself from what ? I'm not attempting to justify myself . I have no reason to .


----------



## Bisbow

KittenKong said:


> I do most strongly deny that. 48% + didn't for a start. Most that did vote leave were English and Welsh.
> 
> So half of Britain voted leave while the other half voted to stay.
> 
> It's the will of the English and Welsh people to impose the result on Scotland and NI who'll undoubtedly suffer the most especially with the return of the hard border with the latter.
> 
> Gibraltar must suffer too because it's the, "Will of the British people" even if 97% there voted to stay in the EU!
> 
> Goes to show how England considers itself to be the superior country of the UK.
> 
> Unlike you Mr Bisbow I don't consider the possibility of the UK breaking up too stupid to bother with. I believe it could be a possibility in the not too distant future.


For a start I am not Mr and secondly what has ration books got to do with breaking up the country


----------



## stockwellcat.

:Hilarious Where did this Brexit ration books come from. Sorry but I cannot stop laughing as it is a ridiculous comment and idea. :Hilarious



Psst let me tell you a well known fact as well. I am a man not a woman.


----------



## kimthecat

[Quote deleted]

That's not a proper answer . Easy to pop in an emoticon when you can't explain what you are insinuating.


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> That's not a proper answer . Easy to pop in an emoticon when you can't explain what you are insinuating.


I've simply decided to foster a few habits, practiced by some other posters, which seem to be acceptable to the members who approve only of the members posting them.

Double standards reign supreme yet again.:Meh


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> That's not a proper answer . Easy to pop in an emoticon when you can't explain what you are insinuating.


I believe Zaros in indulging in what Mr Wonka would have termed "A little footling round about..."


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> We really do have to accept that 'Taking back Control' is sufficient reason for some, or perhaps many, and that economic factors are at best secondary.
> 
> I think it is regrettable that people think that way, but that's just my opinion, and it differs from that of those who do.
> 
> Asking for empirical economic evidence to support a vote for 'Leave' will never produce anything in those cases.


Economic factors were a relatively minor consideration for me when I voted. UK economic factors not even that tbh; they were an irrelevance.

I do wonder though. What form would empirical economic evidence of a future event take? By definition, such a thing cannot exist. Even with a time machine one would have to visit both alternative futures to gather it.

So yes; "Asking for empirical economic evidence to support a vote for 'Leave'" couldn't ever produce anything of use.


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Economic factors were a relatively minor consideration for me when I voted. UK economic factors not even that tbh; they were an irrelevance.
> 
> I do wonder though. What form would empirical economic evidence of a future event take? By definition, such a thing cannot exist. Even with a time machine one would have to visit both alternative futures to gather it.
> 
> So yes; "Asking for empirical economic evidence to support a vote for 'Leave'" couldn't ever produce anything of use.


I think one would have to cite empirical evidence of the past and project forward based on the similarity of factors.

As a very simple and not definitive example, we know both from theory and evidence that if the costs of business rise then, ceteris paribus, the volume of business falls. We know that the cost of business with the EU will rise after Brexit, barring a very unlikely set of circumstances and u-turns, so we can fairly confidently conclude that the volume of business will fall.

Admittedly that's not a great reason to vote Leave, but I can't actually think of one of them!


----------



## kimthecat

Zaros said:


> I've simply decided to foster a few habits, practiced by some other posters, which seem to be acceptable to the members who approve only of the members posting them.


so you're punishing me for perceived the sins of other posters . 



> Double standards reign supreme yet again.:Meh


 Yup .


----------



## Bisbow

Arnie83 said:


> May I ask to what you are referring this time?


Sure, you all know the country is going to hell in a handcart
You know The NHS will die
you know the economy is imploding
You know we are all going to be as poor as church mice

Will that do


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> Sure, you all know the country is going to hell in a handcart
> You know The NHS will die
> you know the economy is imploding
> You know we are all going to be as poor as church mice
> 
> Will that do


I see. Well, I assume I am included in "you all" so I'll comment if I may.

I'm not sure I know the empirical definition of "going to hell in a handcart" but I do expect economic growth to be lower after Brexit than it would otherwise have been, since I can't really see any credible way that we will gain out of it. I also think that the country will be fractured for quite a long time as a result of Brexit.

I don't think the NHS will die, and there are many more factors other than Brexit that will affect it. Without the Brexit vote and without Brexit itself we would have more money available to support it, I think.

I don't think the economy is imploding, nor will implode, but, as above, it is already suffering and will suffer more and for some decades.

I don't think "we all" will be as poor as church mice - again not sure of the empirical definition there - but most of the population will not be as well off as they would otherwise have been. Some will certainly gain, but they will be the ones with the expertise and resources to play the markets.

If you want any detail behind my thoughts on any of those points, please ask.

Even better, if you want to put forward reasoned rebuttals I'd be very interested to read them.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Satori said:


> Economic factors were a relatively minor consideration for me when I voted. UK economic factors not even that tbh; they were an irrelevance.
> 
> I do wonder though. What form would empirical economic evidence of a future event take? By definition, such a thing cannot exist. Even with a time machine one would have to visit both alternative futures to gather it.
> 
> So yes; "Asking for empirical economic evidence to support a vote for 'Leave'" couldn't ever produce anything of use.


So what is the empirical evidence that spring will come? Or that you will wake up tomorrow?
Yet spring will most likely come as usual and you will wake up.
Remember- the were predictions that pound will fall if Britain will decide to leave EU - guess what? It did happen.
So I predict that custom tariffs will have negative impact on trade.
So says my crystal ball.

It also says we will be poorer and health care much worse if you rely on a state one.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> I believe Zaros in indulging in what Mr Wonka would have termed "A little footling round about..."


That's known as playing silly buggers in my neck of the woods. That wouldn't surprise me. He couldn't answer my question so he's avoiding it .


----------



## stockwellcat.

[Quote deleted]
What on earth has this got to do with Brexit?

I am not being funny but what an odd thing to read and post and then try and justify.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> What on earth has this got to do with Brexit?
> 
> I am not being funny but what an odd thing to read and then try and justify.


It's scraping the barrel .


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> It's scraping the barrel .


That's what I thought.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> What on earth has this got to do with Brexit?
> 
> I am not being funny but what an odd thing to read and post and then try and justify.


It's the Telegraph's response to an interview a couple of days ago given by the German ambassador.

The image of Britain standing alone in the second world war against German domination has fed Euroscepticism in the UK, but does little to solve the country's contemporary problems, the outgoing German ambassador to London has told the Guardian.

Dr Peter Ammon described the UK's decision to leave the EU as "a tragedy" and a depressing moment, but also warned that Britain had "illusions" about the Brexittalks.​
His view is that our continuing obsession with the war has contributed to Brexit.

I have to say I completely agree with him. It is an example of the tribal aspect of the affair regarding which I've commented quite a few times on here.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> It's the Telegraph's response to an interview a couple of days ago given by the German ambassador.
> 
> The image of Britain standing alone in the second world war against German domination has fed Euroscepticism in the UK, but does little to solve the country's contemporary problems, the outgoing German ambassador to London has told the Guardian.
> 
> Dr Peter Ammon described the UK's decision to leave the EU as "a tragedy" and a depressing moment, but also warned that Britain had "illusions" about the Brexittalks.​
> His view is that our continuing obsession with the war has contributed to Brexit.
> 
> I have to say I completely agree with him. It is an example of the tribal aspect of the affair regarding which I've commented quite a few times on here.


Well I disagree because the second world war and anything that happened in it never entered my mind when casting my vote nor did the image of a new British Empire. It's sad to see how low people go to try and tar the referendum result and a UK outside of the EU. This is definitely scraping the barrell. BTW if this was ment to insult or make leave voters look small or offend them remainers have to try harder than that. To me that was utter garbage.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well I disagree because the second world war and anything that happened in it never entered my mind when casting my vote nor did the image of a new British Empire. It's sad to see how low people go to try and tar the referendum result and a UK outside of the EU. This is definitely scraping the barrell. BTW if this was ment to insult or make leave voters look small or offend them remainers have to try harder than that. To me that was utter garbage.


Maybe he didn't have you specifically in mind when he said it.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 344020
> 
> 
> So why on earth is the British Empire seen as something to celebrate while in Germany they see their past as rightfully shameful
> 
> Hitler, don't forget, admired the British Empire. He wanted his own.





Arnie83 said:


> The Telegraph really should be above that sort of nonsense.





stockwellcat. said:


> What on earth has this got to do with Brexit?
> 
> I am not being funny but what an odd thing to read and post and then try and justify.





kimthecat said:


> It's scraping the barrel .


That is how short our memory is. One of the reason EU (including it´s earliest phases) was founded to prevent WW2 happening again. Looking at what is happening at the moment in Poland and the rest of the world (=nazism and nationalism have become more popular and open to express and practise racism and politics against many other minorities and religions) WW2 is pretty relevant. Pity Telegraph forgot to mention that Germany is among the few, if only, nation, which openly dealt with it´s worst period of history. I have lots of respect for any nation not to give in to populism, nationalism and racism and still have some values beside greed and selfishness.

In comparison: Has any country with colonies really dealt with those atrocities that took place? Not that Finland is any better - after our civil war in 1918 we are still having problems dealing with that. Not an easy thing to do, as admitting openly your country did something bad and evil will gain few votes. Much easier to say we are the greatest on earth and the reason for our problems are foreigners.

If some one says populism and blaming immigrants have nothing to do with Brexit, please, check what Farage & co claimed before the vote. And while you are it, check also the fake-news about EU. When you have done it, and still think this has nothing to do with Brexit, I´d be interested to know _why y_ou think that.


----------



## kimthecat

MrsZee said:


> That is how short our memory is. One of the reason EU (including it´s earliest phases) was founded to prevent WW2 happening again. Looking at what is happening at the moment in Poland and the rest of the world (=nazism and nationalism have become more popular and open to express and practise racism and politics against many other minorities and religions) .


 I think any extreme party , left or right is a danger .

What will the EU do if these parties become leaders in their countries? If they have votes, this could affect EU legislation .


----------



## Zaros

kimthecat said:


> That's known as playing silly buggers in my neck of the woods. That wouldn't surprise me. He couldn't answer my question so he's avoiding it .


I answered your question the best way I could considering you didn't quite 'get it'

And in the repetitive and immortal words of Stockwellcat, I don't have to justify or explain myself to anyone on this forum.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Continue to trivialise, by all means. The ill feeling that your government has generated has spilled over here in all of the Brexit themed threads.
> This forum is a shadow of its former glowing self and it's all down to the insistence of this incurable obsession to discuss a thing without physical shape or known boundaries.
> 
> It won't affect many of them, Noush' because they'll be in the cold, cold ground or smoke and ashes.


And as the realities of brexit become ever more apparent - I fear its only going to get worse. Brexit is a complete & utter shambles.

Exactly. The young weren't stirred by silly nationalistic slogans, they didn't fall for the lies & the propaganda. They are forward looking & inclusive, they loved the opportunities the freedom to live & work in the EU gave them.



Bisbow said:


> When are you going to admit you don't know what will happen any more than we do
> At least we are honest enough to too admit that, no one knows for sure


But didn't you say we'd be better off? So you're not sure yourself now?

I've seen plenty of evidence showing we are going to be worse off in so many ways yet still I have seen no tangible evidence in support of brexit. Just 'beliefs' .
We know brexit will be damaging for jobs, our NHS, our childrens futures, our security and our global standing. Our environment is also in grave peril.



Elles said:


> Is this really necessary? This is petforums, not 'have I got news for you', linking anything and everything you can find on twitter, Facebook and reading the press you people deny reading.
> 
> Regarding racism, not so long ago a racist could say 'I hope you die, n*'. And nothing would be done about it. Today it would be reported as a hate incident and logged. People are encouraged to come forward, as they should be.
> 
> Yes, some papers jump gleefully on the statistics, but it was said at the time that people are being encouraged to come forward if subjected to hate crime, or incident. It shouldn't be swept under the carpet, or behind closed doors as it has been.
> 
> It's difficult to know who was encouraged in expressing their racist views because people voted to leave the Eu and who was encouraged to report abuse by recent policy and publicity.
> 
> Apparently statistics and government bodies lie, unless what they say suits a particular agenda.


Imagine trying to play down the rise in hate crime

Do you not feel any sympathy for the 3 million Elles?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well the negotiations are due to restart again on Monday between the UK and EU and Barnier is to come to London to see David Davis to kick start the negotiations for the transition deal.


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> I fear its only going to get worse. Brexit is a complete & utter shambles.


Of course it's going to get worse, Noush'

It was bad enough when that conniving, cheating corrupt little cow, May, bought herself a government with other peoples money and got away with it.

Just a confidence trick. A stepping stone to much bigger things.:Meh


----------



## Arnie83

On the subject of Eurosceptic references to the war. It may not have influenced our Leave-voting PF members, but it is difficult to dismiss it ... Just a few examples

*Bill Cash *
"The EU is now a German Europe in all but name and that is where the problem is."

"We do understand Europe and we saved it twice."

"We have just had Remembrance Day. I simply want people to reflect for one moment on the fact that those millions of people who died in both world wars died for a reason. It was to do with sustaining the freedom and democracy of this House [of Commons]."​
*Boris Johnson* said the last 2,000 years of European history had featured repeated efforts to bring the continent together under a single government. "Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, and it ends tragically. The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods."

*Nigel Farage*: "I urge every youngster to go and watch Dunkirk."

I don't think there's any doubt that at least some Leavers would have had tribal reasons contributing to their voting decisions.


----------



## Arnie83

Bisbow said:


> I still believe we will better off, I just said no one knows, not even you


This is interesting. Do you think we will not lose out through our negotiations with the EU, or that we will gain more through trade deals with other countries?

I ask because I really can't see significant gains through trade deals that we haven't already got, and I can't see anything but a significant downside to our negotiated exit.

And of course all the reputable studies (i.e. not Minford) come to broadly the same conclusions.

I'd be interested to hear where you think they err.


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said:


> I think any extreme party , left or right is a danger .
> 
> What will the EU do if these parties become leaders in their countries? If they have votes, this could affect EU legislation .


Anyone? can the EU deal with it ?

( This was in response to Mrs Z post "One of the reason EU (including it´s earliest phases) was founded to prevent WW2 happening again. Looking at what is happening at the moment in Poland and the rest of the world (=nazism and nationalism have become more popular and open to express and practise racism and politics against many other minorities and religions) "


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Of course it's going to get worse, Noush'
> 
> It was bad enough when that conniving, cheating corrupt little cow, May, bought herself a government with other peoples money and got away with it.
> 
> Just a confidence trick. A stepping stone to much bigger things.:Meh


For sure.

She is bloody awful. I didn't think there could possibly be a worse government than Camerons I was wrong! May (& her government) are now the worst government in my lifetime. They are a mendacious bunch of lying crooks putting their own selfish interests before this country's. Do you know what I think will happen? I think we'll crash out of the EU with no deal - this is what the hard brexiteers are pushing for & May is so weak she'll capitulate to them. Disaster capitalists behind brexit (legatum) want the UK to collapse so they can plunder & asset strip the country. The hard right hate EU regulations which protect us. Even the governments own analysis suggests that there could be opportunity for the UK in agreeing trade deals with non-EU countries to deregulate the environment, product standards, and employment law.



Bisbow said:


> till believe we will better off, I just said no one knows, not even you
> 
> Stop twisting my words


I wasn't twisting your words. You said in a previous post we'd be better off, but thank you for clarifying all the same. So its just your belief we're going to be better off. Beliefs have no baring on reality Bisbow.

There is plenty of firm evidence showing brexit is going to be a disaster.

Take this for example. (I suspect brexiters on here will immediately dismiss this as 'scaremongering' like they do everything that runs counter to their beliefs irrespective of the source of the information. But one lives in hope.)

*Britain will lose influence on cross-border policing and security after Brexit, the outgoing head of Europol has told the BBC
*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-428749...=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> For sure.
> 
> She is bloody awful. I didn't think there could possibly be a worse government than Camerons I was wrong! May (& her government) are now the worst government in my lifetime. They are a mendacious bunch of lying crooks putting their own selfish interests before this country's. Do you know what I think will happen? I think we'll crash out of the EU with no deal - this is what the hard brexiteers are pushing for & May is so weak she'll capitulate to them. Disaster capitalists behind brexit (legatum) want the UK to collapse so they can plunder & asset strip the country. The hard right hate EU regulations which protect us. Even the governments own analysis suggests that there could be opportunity for the UK in agreeing trade deals with non-EU countries to deregulate the environment, product standards, and employment law.


Take comfort in knowing this, Noush'. When all these things do come to pass, you'll be the one that's least disappointed. Tory accomplices will have the most to lose because they'll finally have to face the stark and vulgar realisation that they're not the chosen ones after all. No special privileges for their foolish loyalty to cut throat politicians out to further their own ends by any means possible.
Lambs led to the slaughter, just the same as everyone else they believed were once beneath them.


----------



## Elles

Why would it keep influence over European borders? Talk about stating the obvious.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Arnie83 said:


> It's the Telegraph's response to an interview a couple of days ago given by the German ambassador.
> 
> The image of Britain standing alone in the second world war against German domination has fed Euroscepticism in the UK, but does little to solve the country's contemporary problems, the outgoing German ambassador to London has told the Guardian.
> 
> Dr Peter Ammon described the UK's decision to leave the EU as "a tragedy" and a depressing moment, but also warned that Britain had "illusions" about the Brexittalks.​
> His view is that our continuing obsession with the war has contributed to Brexit.
> 
> I have to say I completely agree with him. It is an example of the tribal aspect of the affair regarding which I've commented quite a few times on here.


Funny thing about WWII - imagine no Pearl Harbour and Hitler deciding to keep Ribbentrop-Molotov pact ?
USA and Soviets were forced to join the war- but if they were not?Happpily stayed neutral?
No help from Polish and Czech pilots either?

Would Britain win the war?
When Hitler attacked Britain USA did not rush to help, they stayed put till Pearl Harbour!!

So much for "special relationship" , but not many in UK know or want to know.
Where were USA troops in 1940?
And if pin your hopes for better friends on Putin:Bawling


----------



## Elles

No wonder leavers aren’t listening. I suppose I’ll add to the list of reasons why people voted Brexit, ‘obsessed with ww2, though ignorant of what actually happened.’

If you lived in the U.K. scrip you might realise that Brits are often quite derogatory about the American involvement. A common accusation is that they came in at the last minute, because of Pearl Harbor and were ‘oversexed, overpaid and over here’. Brits weren’t praising them for saving the day and the only special relationship they were concerned about was the special relationship they might be having with the wives and daughters left behind while the brits were away fighting.


----------



## Zaros

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny thing about WWII - imagine no Pearl Harbour and Hitler deciding to keep Ribbentrop-Molotov pact ?
> USA and Soviets were forced to join the war- but if they were not?Happpily stayed neutral?
> No help from Polish and Czech pilots either?
> 
> Would Britain win the war?
> When Hitler attacked Britain USA did not rush to help, they stayed put till Pearl Harbour!!
> 
> So much for "special relationship" , but not many in UK know or want to know.
> Where were USA troops in 1940?
> And if pin your hopes for better friends on Putin:Bawling


In short, the Japanese, a people of honour, considered it dishonourable to attack the sleeping tiger and so had issued America with a prior warning of its intentions.
Roosevelt was well aware that the attack on Pearl Harbor was going to take place, but did nothing but sit back and sacrifice his own people as an excuse to enter the war.

Mark Twain observed that, '_While history may not repeat itself, it sure does rhyme'
_
A similar sacrifice took place during WW1 when, desperate to involve the USA in a conflict America believed was another man's war, Churchill conspired to sink the Lusitania.
The sinking stirred up a storm of protest in the US because 128 American citizens were amongst the dead.
Churchill's shameful disregard for life was instrumental in shifting public opinion in the United States against Germany, and was the underlying factor in the United States's declaration of war almost two years later.

There's been many a cruel joke posted about the alleged cowardice of France during times of war, CB being the main culprit, but the long surviving joke about America goes something along the lines of;_ 
How do you get America involved in world war? Tell them it's nearly_ over.

Of course, today, America doesn't need any encouragement to go to war, if it can't find an excuse, it will make one up.
And continue to sacrifice its own people in doing so.:Meh


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Why would it keep influence over European borders? Talk about stating the obvious.


Oh so leavers knew when they voted leave they would be jeopardising our security then?



Zaros said:


> In short, the Japanese, a people of honour, considered it dishonourable to attack the sleeping tiger and so had issued America with a prior warning of its intentions.
> Roosevelt was well aware that the attack on Pearl Harbor was going to take place, but did nothing but sit back and sacrifice his own people as an excuse to enter the war.
> 
> Mark Twain observed that, '_While history may not repeat itself, it sure does rhyme'
> _
> A similar sacrifice took place during WW1 when, desperate to involve the USA in a conflict America believed was another man's war, Churchill conspired to sink the Lusitania.
> The sinking stirred up a storm of protest in the US because 128 American citizens were amongst the dead.
> Churchill's shameful disregard for life was instrumental in shifting public opinion in the United States against Germany, and was the underlying factor in the United States's declaration of war almost two years later.
> 
> There's been many a cruel joke posted about the alleged cowardice of France during times of war, CB being the main culprit, but the long surviving joke about America goes something along the lines of;_
> How do you get America involved in world war? Tell them it's nearly_ over.
> 
> Of course, today, America doesn't need any encouragement to go to war, if it can't find an excuse, it will make one up.
> And continue to sacrifice its own people in doing so.:Meh


Not wishing to take this thread off topic but I recently found out just how evil Churchill was. I was shocked. I knew he was bad, but blimey, when I say he was evil - I mean evil.


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> Take comfort in knowing this, Noush'. When all these things do come to pass, you'll be the one that's least disappointed. Tory accomplices will have the most to lose because they'll finally have to face the stark and vulgar realisation that they're not the chosen ones after all. No special privileges for their foolish loyalty to cut throat politicians out to further their own ends by any means possible.
> Lambs led to the slaughter, just the same as everyone else they believed were once beneath them.


Absolutely x


----------



## Zaros

noushka05 said:


> Oh so leavers knew when they voted leave they would be jeopardising our security then?
> 
> Not wishing to take this thread off topic but I recently found out just how evil Churchill was. I was shocked. I knew he was bad, but blimey, when I say he was evil - I mean evil.


And yet so many bestowed a God-like image upon him.:Meh
_
Through evil-doing one loses the reward of any good one has done' _Aesop_ 620 BCE - 564 BCE_


----------



## noushka05

Zaros said:


> And yet so many bestowed a God-like image upon him.:Meh
> _
> Through evil-doing one loses the reward of any good one has done' _Aesop_ 620 BCE - 564 BCE_


I know. The mind boggles He actually _was_ a genocidal maniac.


----------



## noushka05

The excellent James O'Brien calls out government minister who lied to the house. (video on link)

What a complete & utter shambles this government are - yet many still 'believe' they'll get us a better deal than we have in the EU :Hilarious:Jawdrop

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...obrien-calls-out-government-minister-who-lie/

*James O'Brien has questioned how a government minister has been allowed to keep his job after admitting lying to the House of Commons.*

Steve Baker, a Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State in David Davis' Brexit department, said the accusation from Jacob Rees-Mogg that Treasury officials were trying to influence policy to stay in the EU was "essentially correct".

Charles Grant, an EU policy expert, was said to have been the source of the claims, but a day later, audio surfaced of their conversation, proving that wasn't the case.

Mr Baker accepted his original statement was not correct, saying: "I'm grateful for this early opportunity to correct the record and I apologise to the House."

James was stunned that a government minister was allowed to get away with misleading the House quite so clearly.

Speaking on his LBC show, he said: "Rees-Mogg said 'Is it true you heard Charles Grant say this?' He said 'Yes it is true'. Downing Street believed him. The tape came out in which he categorically didn't say that.

_"So he has then, after being let off by Downing Street, *had to apologise for lying through his teeth* in the middle of the House of Commons is response to *nonsense rumours being percolated by Jacob Rees-Mogg. Ridiculous*_*.*

*"It's where we are now in Britain. A minister of government can actually lie in the House of Commons and then apologise for the lie, while claiming that he's delighted the record was set straight. *

*"That's where we are. Brexit Britain."*


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Not wishing to take this thread off topic but I recently found out just how evil Churchill was. I was shocked. I knew he was bad, but blimey, when I say he was evil - I mean evil.


Because he was a founding father of the European Union I assume?


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Anyone? can the EU deal with it ?
> 
> ( This was in response to Mrs Z post "One of the reason EU (including it´s earliest phases) was founded to prevent WW2 happening again. Looking at what is happening at the moment in Poland and the rest of the world (=nazism and nationalism have become more popular and open to express and practise racism and politics against many other minorities and religions) "


In my humble opinion, it's an enormous question, because there are so many possibilities. To keep it short, though ...

To have a *say* in EU legislation any extreme party just has to have MEPs. And I think there are a few of those already. But that's democracy. Whether they influence decisions; maybe, if they have something sensible to say.

If an extreme party won power in a country then their seat on the Council would give them a certain influence greater than in the Parliament simply because of the maths. But again they would need the support of the majority.

If they broke the rules on how member states should behave then they'd be censured and ultimately ejected. Or they might just leave anyway, via government policy or referendum.

It rather depends what the state was as to what might happen. A significant member of the eurozone would create big problems across the continent and might lead to the break-up of the EU, which of course is what the extreme (right) want (don't know enough about extreme left to comment; probably not much different though.)

If that happened then we're back to competing, squabbling countries - or proud nations standing on their own two feet, depending on one's viewpoint - and anything is possible. All I would say is that in the past it hasn't ended well and I see few signs that we have learned sufficient lessons to ensure that history doesn't repeat itself.


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> Because he was a founding father of the European Union I assume?


Touche!

but no - its due to him actually being a white supremacist & a genocidal maniac.

Zaros's quote comes into use at this point.



Zaros said:


> _
> Through evil-doing one loses the reward of any good one has done' _Aesop_ 620 BCE - 564 BCE_


----------



## cheekyscrip

noushka05 said:


> Touche!
> 
> but no - its due to him actually being a white supremacist & a genocidal maniac.
> 
> Zaros's quote comes into use at this point.


Churchill happily has blown up Sikorski - Polish PM and Commander - July 1943, Sikorski- who brought to Britain Polish and Czech pilots for RAF to die for Britain.
Then blamed Germany, Soviets... he did it, because promised to give Poland , Czech to Stalin. He betrayed his allies and gave free rein to dump so many countries into dictatorship of Soviet Union, that for forty years robbed us, destroying our economy and spreading terror. My own family members did time in commie prison and lost all that they owned.
Then people complain about immigrants from poorer parts of EU.

Please remember we did not ask for being handed in to Soviets. Churchill did that.
Curzon line - and one third of Poland was given to Ukraine - ethinic cleansing followed, My Mum and her parents escaped with life and nothing else.
That is Churchill and USA decisions.

USA are even more happy to sacrifice others, not only their own.

Why do you think we are safer in EU than as USA's satellite country?

That apart of economy is a very good reason to be in EU, however critical I am of them.
Lesser evil.


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> Anyone? can the EU deal with it ?
> 
> ( This was in response to Mrs Z post "One of the reason EU (including it´s earliest phases) was founded to prevent WW2 happening again. Looking at what is happening at the moment in Poland and the rest of the world (=nazism and nationalism have become more popular and open to express and practise racism and politics against many other minorities and religions) "


EU is trying at least, e.g. has taken some action against Poland so that there still would be an independent justice system. I can´t even think how bad the situation would have been without EU. E.g. the latest Polish legislation forbids people to say Polish had something to do with concentration camps. Really? Didn´t most countries invaded by Germany have some sort of formal body to deal with the Jews/resistance etc. (France had Vichy etc.) And like we have read from previous posts, UK supported Hitler in the beginning. Swedes sold iron ore (hope that term is right) etc. Russia invaded Eastern Europe, and allowed to do so by Brits and Americans e.g. Politics before, during and after war is really dirty.

But, things are much better now, than god. One reason has been EU (not the only reason, naturally,) and free trade and possibility to move freely in EU. Legislation based on democracy, fight against corruption and tax havens, improving people´s rights and protecting environment are also genuinely good things supported by EU. IMO also having something in common with other nations is really effective when fighting racism and nationalism. It is a different thing altogether to be proud of one´s country than claiming other nations are rotten low life beings, deserving not to be treated as equals. That is what nazi-parties in Europe and in the world are doing. In Europe Putin donates lots of money to Le Pen and Farage etc, as all dictators know that democracy is the real threat for their power and the weaker the nation, the less likely it is to care what happens e.g. in Russia and the more likely it is want to do business with it.


----------



## kimthecat

Sorry my quotes are playing silly buggers !

@MrsZee thanks for taking the time to reply and explaining .


----------



## Arnie83

kimthecat said:


> Sorry my quotes are playing silly buggers !
> 
> @MrsZee thanks for taking the time to reply and explaining .


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong Can you put the links to these facebook quotes cos I can't find them on there .


----------



## Guest

@MrsZee thanks for taking the time to reply and explaining . [/QUOTE]

I just find that we all need to be interested in what is happening and why, as we can so easily lose what took decades to create just by being passive. Also we are finally started to deal properly with out civil war, in which over 30 000 people were killed. It took 100 years and still some have problems admitting the cruelties. But also it has giving some understanding what caused it and above all, what has united us since then and how we managed to create a decent, democratic country. And every time I see any politician starting to divide people to "deserving and undeserving", increase of inequality and using xenophobia for their own problems, I see that nation taking steps toward war. It all starts in creating a general "understanding" that segregation, injustice, even violence will be an answer to people´s plight. Once that has been created, it is easy to pass laws and create political systems, where dictators rule. Turkey e.g has deteriorated from a fairly democratic country into a dictatorship. Hungary and Poland have taken steps to that direction too. Lets see if EU can manage to threaten them enough to stop that by stopping the gravy train.

This shows how easily people can be manipulated even to believe what they read and hear. Happens everywhere. We really need to be watchful when fake news are spread deliberately by troll factories.


----------



## Arnie83

[Quote deleted]

I think it is somewhat over the top in that it doesn't make clear that it is a subset that is being described here, and I'm not sure that any one person would be accurately described by all the characteristics. It's a composite of worst Leaver traits, and no doubt a similar hatchet job could be done on Remainers.

With that caveat, I've said much the same about the tribal influence on the Brexit vote.

There are many who feel that the national identity is being eroded and they are so invested in the idea of country and nationhood that along with that erosion goes their own identity.

For those people - not _all_ Leavers - the costs of Brexit are relatively unimportant; Brexit is all that matters. When they deny the costs, or try to discredit them - as Rees-Mogg did shamefully last week, and as Fox, IDS, Cash, Redwood etc do quite regularly - it is not because they believe what they are saying, it's because they are very afraid that the truth might rob them of their prize. They must stop the People from learning what they themselves know to be true in order to achieve what they see as the greater good.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> @KittenKong Can you put the links to these facebook quotes cos I can't find them on there .


It was shared by someone from the closed pro EU 48% group. The original analysis was by Orjan Pettersen.

I take Arnie's point about this not being applicable to all Brexiteers, only to its extremes.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> It was shared by someone from the closed pro EU 48% group. The original analysis was by Orjan Pettersen.
> 
> I take Arnie's point about this not being applicable to all Brexiteers, only to its extremes.


OIC no wonder it's a closed forum.


----------



## Guest

Like always in life, there are lots of different reasons behind Brexit too. What is important though is to follow, what will be the consequences of it, as not all Brexiteers aim at making Britain a better place for all, just for themselves.

In the case of Brexit especially this Japanese proverb is so true: "When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends" . Who are those backing Brexit and why?


----------



## Arnie83

Mind you, the quasi-religious aspect of it all is not as outlandish as I thought when I first read it.

There are so many studies showing that Brexit will cost the UK in terms of GDP / tax revenue, but some Leavers still believe that it will be economically beneficial. They give no figures, they don't dispute any aspect of the existing studies except to repeat that they are 'wrong'. They dismiss projections of future performance with "no-one knows", yet still - in direct self-contradiction - believe that their predictions of benefits, albeit unquantified, are true.

Religions are grounded in faith with no evidence. Now I think of it, the comparisons are inevitable!


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> OIC no wonder it's a closed forum.


What's OIC? I guess it's a closed forum to avoid trolls, can't think of any other reason. I'm united behind any pro EU page as I'm, ahem very pro EU.

Another that's started only days ago specifically for younger people received 1000 likes in just three days.

Sabre Roads forum, which has its own General Chat section is also closed to non members.

Radios & TV (VRAT 2) also has a private "Lounge" section for members but that prohibits Politics and Religion.


----------



## kimthecat

@MrsZee

Fake news is a big worry . Also, how much can we trust the history we are taught . It can be altered over the years or facts hidden and not revealed for years . The WW2 is in living memory but further down the line , will the Holocaust deniers be believed?

I did 20th World history at school for O level . We had a fab teacher . We read some of Mein Kampf and went home with Maos little red book . (translations ! ) I can remember my dad saying , OMG, her teacher's a Commie ! 

It sounds funny now but Communism _was _a real threat then ,

I'm sad that the Yanks seem to be hated . The war would have been lost without them .
My grandparents lived through two world wars and my parents lived through one. I remember the air raid shelters in the garden . My granddad never spoke of his experiences as an ambulance stretcher carrier , not even to my dad. My parents told me stories  of the sirens going off etc , My mum remembers how scared they were when It was though Hitler would invade us and we were helpless and on our knees. I'm immensely proud of them of how they coped with years of horror and proud how UK itself coped. 
Leaders had to make terrible painful decisions after the war that caused suffering and death , the Russians were intent on taking over and would have taken us to war again .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> What's OIC? I guess it's a closed forum to avoid trolls, can't think of any other reason. I'm united behind any pro EU page as I'm, ahem very pro EU.
> 
> .


OIC means Oh I see. 
Perhaps its closed so more reasonable people who might protest at their crap can't join. 
Elitists who spew crap and cause divides and exclude others , are you sure its an EU group cos it sounds like the things they criticise leavers for ? 

I don't do FB. I can imagine Brexit groups are just as bad.


----------



## kimthecat

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the negotiations are due to restart again on Monday between the UK and EU and Barnier is to come to London to see David Davis to kick start the negotiations for the transition deal.


That will give us something to have a nice friendly chat about . 
Actually , I need to get back to the real world, I have promises to keep . I might give this thread a rest for a while .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> OIC means Oh I see.
> Perhaps its closed so more reasonable people who might protest at their crap can't join.
> Elitists who spew crap and cause divides and exclude others , are you sure its an EU group cos it sounds like the things they criticise leavers for ?
> 
> I don't do FB. I can imagine Brexit groups are just as bad.


Thanks for explaining OIC, that's a new one for me.

I get your point about closed forums. The 48% certainly doesn't seem any more pro EU than others I've seen. I've seen plenty of brextremist trolls on the comments section on other pro EU groups that are open.to all. I guess being closed allows moderators to ban any trolls who slip through the net.

For that matter why would I wish to look at pro Brexit groups or wish to join a closed pro Brexit group?

One of the pro EU groups, Reasons to Remain I think it might have been, suffered a lot of abuse from Brexit trolls.

The group organiser politely informed these people they're plenty of pro Brexit groups they could voice their opinions on.


----------



## stockwellcat.

kimthecat said:


> That will give us something to have a nice friendly chat about .
> Actually , I need to get back to the real world, I have promises to keep . I might give this thread a rest for a while .


I have just found out something has happened to a family member. I am not going into details but I won't be around for quite a while.


----------



## Elles

The yanks aren’t hated, it was the idea that we voted Brexit because of their involvement in ww2 that I was countering. The idea that we love the Americans and want to join America, because they saved us. 

Tbh this thread has got so way out there, it belongs on a conspiracy theorists website imo.

Obviously it’s acceptable to be very cruel on the internet to anyone who voted to leave the Eu and to make assumptions about their character and personality that lumps them with the worst of humanity. If a website, or Facebook is closed, it usually means that the people who are members want to say what they think without everyone else on the internet arguing, trolling, or reasoning with them. Their posts and opinions should remain in the closed group.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I'm sad that the Yanks seem to be hated . The war would have been lost without them .


Yes indeed, but that was over 70 years ago. The Russians' were a major contribution too yet you never see any thanks for them.

The problem with the UK is their obsession with the, "Special relationship". Tony Blair would never have joined the US for the Iraqi war for example, now these words are repeated by TM with emphasis on a closer than ever relationship!


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> I have just found out something has happened to a family member. I am not going into details but I won't be around for quite a while.


I hope all is well soon.


----------



## Elles

kimthecat said:


> OIC means Oh I see.
> Perhaps its closed so more reasonable people who might protest at their crap can't join.
> Elitists who spew crap and cause divides and exclude others , are you sure its an EU group cos it sounds like the things they criticise leavers for ?
> 
> I don't do FB. I can imagine Brexit groups are just as bad.


I agree. I find the quote highly offensive.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Tbh this thread has got so way out there, it belongs on a conspiracy theorists website imo.


Its the same all over social media - even down to pro brexit politicians like Mogg & co - whenever the hard brexiters are confronted with reality, facts & evidence its played down as 'scaremongering' or its 'project fear'. Anything they don't want to hear must be a conspiracy:Watching This is a threat to our democracy.


----------



## Arnie83

noushka05 said:


> Its the same all over social media - even down to pro brexit politicians like Mogg & co - whenever the hard brexiters are confronted with reality, facts & evidence its played down as 'scaremongering' or its 'project fear'. Anything they don't want to hear must be a conspiracy:Watching This is a threat to our democracy.
> 
> David Schneider nails it in his lampooning of 'honest' Moggompus
> 
> *Inventing slurs to discredit rational evidence/facts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *Doubling down when proved wrong*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Trying to discredit government institutions who are doing their job when their findings expose the lunacy of your policies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Can't thread tweets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Rees-Mogg. Our very own Trump*


It'll be interesting to see what May does about the accusation by a Tory MP that the Tory Chancellor is responsible for lying to the Cabinet and the British people.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed, but that was over 70 years ago. The Russians' were a major contribution too yet you never see any thanks for them.


Well you can thank then if you want 
Actually we should thank the Canadians too !

What do you think would have happened if the US hadn't become involved with Europe and the D day landings etc . ?
What other outcomes could there have been ?


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> The problem with the UK is their obsession with the, "Special relationship". Tony Blair would never have joined the US for the Iraqi war for example, now these words are repeated by TM with emphasis on a closer than ever relationship!


I bet he would have done . He wanted to be a world player and used that as an excuse.


----------



## noushka05

cheekyscrip said:


> Churchill happily has blown up Sikorski - Polish PM and Commander - July 1943, Sikorski- who brought to Britain Polish and Czech pilots for RAF to die for Britain.
> Then blamed Germany, Soviets... he did it, because promised to give Poland , Czech to Stalin. He betrayed his allies and gave free rein to dump so many countries into dictatorship of Soviet Union, that for forty years robbed us, destroying our economy and spreading terror. My own family members did time in commie prison and lost all that they owned.
> Then people complain about immigrants from poorer parts of EU.
> 
> Please remember we did not ask for being handed in to Soviets. Churchill did that.
> Curzon line - and one third of Poland was given to Ukraine - ethinic cleansing followed, My Mum and her parents escaped with life and nothing else.
> That is Churchill and USA decisions.
> 
> USA are even more happy to sacrifice others, not only their own.
> 
> Why do you think we are safer in EU than as USA's satellite country?
> 
> That apart of economy is a very good reason to be in EU, however critical I am of them.
> Lesser evil.


Gosh thats dreadful. I had no idea about this.

It must have been absolutely terrifying for your Mum & Grandparents x

Yes the EU is definitely the lesser of two evils.


----------



## noushka05

Arnie83 said:


> It'll be interesting to see what May does about the accusation by a Tory MP that the Tory Chancellor is responsible for lying to the Cabinet and the British people.


My bet is she won't do a thing. Such is the state of our leadership.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I bet he would have done . He wanted to be a world player and used that as an excuse.


Blair, in response to Bush's, "War on Terror" insisted the UK must stand shoulder to shoulder with the US on this. He received much support from members of the Tory party at that time. He kept to his word and willingly joined Bush when he invaded Iraq.

What reason would Blair or any other PM have in invading Iraq unilaterally?

It was a US problem. Blair insisted on the UK'S help. A Tory PM would have done the same at the time I have no doubt about that.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Blair, in response to Bush's, "War on Terror" insisted the UK must stand shoulder to shoulder with the US on this. He received much support from members of the Tory party at that time. He kept to his word and willingly joined Bush when he invaded Iraq.
> 
> What reason would Blair or any other PM have in invading Iraq unilaterally?
> 
> It was a US problem. Blair insisted on the UK'S help. A Tory PM would have done the same at the time I have no doubt about that.


Actually Blair made a speech about standing shoulder to shoulder with the US when they invaded Afghanistan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/the_war_in_afghanistan/
The aim of Operation Enduring Freedom was to find Osama Bin Laden, remove the Taliban from power, and prevent the use of Afghanistan as a terrorist haven. The US was supported by a broad coalition of international forces including the Afghan Northern Alliance, United Kingdom and Canada.

Later , He mislead the US and the UK and we invaded Iraq believing they had weapons of mass destruction .


----------



## Elles

It might be all over the Internet, like I said when it comes to attacking leave voters it seems to be a free for all. However, not a single word of that extremist rubbish applies to any leave voter on this thread, so it doesn’t belong here.


----------



## Elles

You claim to be caring, kind empathic people, who care about your fellow man, unless they voted to leave the Eu it seems. I’m becoming so cross, as someone who voted remain and had reasons for doing so, I can’t even discuss from my own POV, when remainers are behaving this way.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Actually Blair made a speech about standing shoulder to shoulder with the US when they invaded Afghanistan.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/the_war_in_afghanistan/
> The aim of Operation Enduring Freedom was to find Osama Bin Laden, remove the Taliban from power, and prevent the use of Afghanistan as a terrorist haven. The US was supported by a broad coalition of international forces including the Afghan Northern Alliance, United Kingdom and Canada.
> 
> Later , He mislead the US and the UK and we invaded Iraq believing they had weapons of mass destruction .


Are you sure it wasn't the US misleading the UK?

Don't forget Bush Snr.'s Gulf War and the more recent UK intervention in the U.S. against Libya etc.

I'm not defending Blair and his involvement in Bush's War on terror in any way. The UK should have learned its lesson not to get involved in US conflicts, (applicable to other countries too), but their obsession with the, "Special relationship" ensures they will do in the future.


----------



## noushka05

MrsZee said:


> In the case of Brexit especially this Japanese proverb is so true: "When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends" . Who are those backing Brexit and why?


Its a scary list. But this lot pushed for brexit - off the top of my head: Right wing Non dom media barrons , Dacre, Cambridge Analytica, Disaster Capitalists, billionaire tax dodgers, BNP, UKIP, National Front, Britain First, White Nationalist Party, Far Right Tories, Putin, Trump, Le Penn, Bannon, Banks, Mercer. (some fit into more than one category). Oh & Katie Hopkins & Jim Davidson

Obviously some are racists who want 'control of our borders'. Others want a deregulated, low tax UK where they can get even richer at our expense . And others still want to weaken the EU for their own sinister agenda.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Are you sure it wasn't the US misleading the UK?
> 
> I'm not defending Blair and his involvement in Bush's War on terror in any way. The UK should have learned its lesson not to get involved in US conflicts, (applicable to other countries too), but their obsession with the, "Special relationship" ensures they will do in the future.


Blair mislead the US with his sexed up document.
yes, i know you're not defending Blair .
I'm sure many people believe we have a special relationship with the US . What I was really trying to say that Blair is a self seeking fantasist who believe is own lies . he really wanted to be a world player and he would have used any excuse to hang onto Bush's coat tails .

This is Blair's speech .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1538551.stm

The end bit says

"As for those that carried out these attacks there are no adequate words of condemnation. Their barbarism will stand as their shame for all eternity.

"As I said earlier, this mass terrorism is the new evil in our world.

"The people who perpetrate it have no regard whatever for the sanctity or value of human life and we the democracies of the world must come together to defeat it and eradicate it.

"This is not a battle between the United States of America and terrorism but between the free and democratic world and terrorism.

"We therefore here in Britain stand shoulder to shoulder with our American friends in this hour of tragedy and we like them will not rest until this evil is driven from our world."

The reason Blair gives to join them is to root out terrorism.

That went well didn't it .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said: ↑


> Yes indeed, but that was over 70 years ago. The Russians' were a major contribution too yet you never see any thanks for them.





kimthecat said:


> Well you can thank then if you want
> Actually we should thank the Canadians too !
> 
> What do you think would have happened if the US hadn't become involved with Europe and the D day landings etc . ?
> What other outcomes could there have been ?


To get back to this . The outcome 70 years ago would affect us now.

We could now be a state of a Nazi Germany or part of the USSR that covered most of Europe if the USa hadn't joined us .

Which one would you have prefered?


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> KittenKong said: ↑
> 
> Remember in both world wars USA only joined when it was beneficial to them.
> 
> To get back to this . The outcome 70 years ago would affect us now.
> Yes.
> 
> We could now be a state of a Nazi Germany or part of the USSR that covered most of Europe if the USa hadn't joined us .
> 
> Which one would you have prefered?


They join if and only when it suits them.

Plus I do no think Britain was in danger from Soviets, but it threw them Poland a few more like you throw a dog a bone.

I actually know what it is to be a part of a " bloc" when you have no sovereignty and are exploited.

It was called Warsaw Pact and people died fighting it, even teens, beaten to death by police. Like Grzegorz Przemyk.
Even priests who were preaching freedom like Popieluszko.

When I see Daily Fail scream about Britain lost sovereignty it turns my stomach.

You are and we are sovereign and strong party in EU.

This is pure scaremongering that Britain is about to lose it. To EU.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> KittenKong said: ↑
> 
> To get back to this . The outcome 70 years ago would affect us now.
> 
> We could now be a state of a Nazi Germany or part of the USSR that covered most of Europe if the USa hadn't joined us .
> 
> Which one would you have prefered?


Perhaps we wouldn't know any better as we would have been brought up under fascism or communism.

That didn't happen but the UK and US are now very worrying moving to the far right.

We have enjoyed democracy but for how much longer?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Blair mislead the US with his sexed up document.
> yes, i know you're not defending Blair .
> I'm sure many people believe we have a special relationship with the US . What I was really trying to say that Blair is a self seeking fantasist who believe is own lies . he really wanted to be a world player and he would have used any excuse to hang onto Bush's coat tails .
> 
> This is Blair's speech .
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1538551.stm
> 
> The end bit says
> 
> "As for those that carried out these attacks there are no adequate words of condemnation. Their barbarism will stand as their shame for all eternity.
> 
> "As I said earlier, this mass terrorism is the new evil in our world.
> 
> "The people who perpetrate it have no regard whatever for the sanctity or value of human life and we the democracies of the world must come together to defeat it and eradicate it.
> 
> "This is not a battle between the United States of America and terrorism but between the free and democratic world and terrorism.
> 
> "We therefore here in Britain stand shoulder to shoulder with our American friends in this hour of tragedy and we like them will not rest until this evil is driven from our world."
> 
> The reason Blair gives to join them is to root out terrorism.
> 
> That went well didn't it .


Not disputing that but it was George W Bush who was the organ grinder with Blair and the UK being their oily rag.

Blair did indeed join Bush in "rooting out terrorism". Usual case of the US telling the UK to jump. They reply, "How high?".

Now we hear May is considering allowing US based health companies a hand in that great British institution the NHS.

I'm not saying the UK should become enemies of the US as they are making with the rest of Europe. They just need to stand up to them a lot more.

Getting their missiles off British soil would be a good start.

The EU never got the UK involved in any wars.....


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps we wouldn't know any better as we would have been brought up under fascism or communism.
> 
> That didn't happen but the UK and US are now very worrying moving to the far right.


and we enjoyed democracy thanks to the Yanks ! 
Well you know perhaps it would have been better if we were a communist satellite , we wouldn't have to worry about the far right . 
I don't know why I'm surprised you so dismissive .


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Getting their missiles off British soil would be a good start.
> .


How about " EU" soil?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> How about " EU" soil?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing


Indeed the UK isn't alone but the EU don't instruct anyone to take US missiles as far as I'm aware.

Going back to your previous post, I tend to look to the future, not think about what might have been. Had the UK succumbed to a communist regime this collapsed in the early '90s commencing with the Berlin Wall. I'm sure the UK would have joined the EU in those circumstances with the freedom of movement now enjoyed by former "Iron Curtain" countries.

Now, it's the UK government who're talking about borders including the one that might have to be erected on the NI/ROI EU and Gibraltar while Trump bleats on about the Mexican Wall.

While Eastern Europe now enjoy freedom of movement within the EU the UK will shortly be losing that right.

Certainly a retrograde step in my opinion.


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> and we enjoyed democracy thanks to the Yanks !
> Well you know perhaps it would have been better if we were a communist satellite , we wouldn't have to worry about the far right .
> I don't know why I'm surprised you so dismissive .


I do not think Soviets were ever a serious threat to Britain- as they were to Poland.

Far right and far left are equally evil, dictatorship has one face even if different hats. 
Stalinism cost even more lives than fascism. 
50 mln dead in Russia, 100mln under Mao in China.
Terror is terror.
My family was waiting for the train to be deported to Syberia and it was cancelled because on that day Hitler attacked Russia.
My Dad remembered times of German occupation with Wermacht general stationed in his house, my family in empty pigsty - as better than when Soviets came back, killing, robbing and raping on the way to Berlin, Red Army was allowed everything. They executed Polish resistance fighters who came out to join the forces!
Then Katyn - massacre of Polish officers - 22 thousands executed on Stalin's order- they were POWs! 
Even Hitler had some respect for POWs!

Every extremism is pure evil. No matter what slogans they use, what they promise.

By the way- Putin is a very eager supporter of Brexit. Take a hint.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Indeed the UK isn't alone but the EU don't instruct anyone to take US missiles as far as I'm aware.


No one "instructed" us either !Is this what your facebook group is telling you ?



> Going back to your previous post, had the UK succumbed to a communist regime this collapsed in the early '90s commencing with the Berlin Wall. I'm sure the UK would have joined the EU in those circumstances with the freedom of movement now enjoyed by former "Iron Curtain" countries.
> 
> .


But what about the people that lived before the 90s . That could have been your grandparents and parents and your early life .
My ex's mum was German , she came to England when she was 17 just before the war to work for a family . She never saw her family, they were trapped in East Germany , i guess they don't count because they're history . Who cares.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Are you sure it wasn't the US misleading the UK?
> 
> Don't forget Bush Snr.'s Gulf War and the more recent UK intervention in the U.S. against Libya etc.


Bush senior's Gulf war . Iraq invaded Kuwait . A coalition of countries joined the US over 30 including nations from Middle east , Africa and Europe. The States sure did mislead a lotta countries ! We all needed the oil!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_the_Gulf_War

Libya was Nato led.
https://www.nato.int/cps/ic/natohq/topics_71652.htm


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> No one "instructed" us either !Is this what your facebook group is telling you ?
> 
> But what about the people that lived before the 90s . That could have been your grandparents and parents and your early life .
> My ex's mum was German , she came to England when she was 17 just before the war to work for a family . She never saw her family, they were trapped in East Germany , i guess they don't count because they're history . Who cares.


No, I did not get this from a Facebook page. I don't think the US is as democratic as some would lead us to believe that's all. All I'm saying is I don't want closer ties with the US but closer ties with Europe.

Politicians past and present in the UK bleat on about the, "Special relationship" and bow to them at every opportunity. May panicking over the possible invitation of Obama to the forthcoming royal wedding in fear of upsetting Trump is clear evidence of that. Since when has Trump been an unelected UK president?. I thought Brexit was all about taking back control, not giving it up. I ask myself has May already given us to America?

Perhaps the US didn't order the UK to plant their missiles but they could order the UK to activate them as and when they want to.

I certainly do care and hope your ex's family were able to escape the regime when the wall came down.

But the UK ending the freedom of movement could prevent loved ones from their families, say if an English person meets someone within the EU in the future who struggles to have permission granted or refused to reside in the UK and/or indeed vice versa. This has often happened to those from outside the EU. Now.it'll soon effect those in the EU as well.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> No, I did not get this from a Facebook page. I don't think the US is as democratic as some would lead us to believe that's all. All I'm saying is I don't want closer ties with the US but closer ties with Europe. Perhaps the US didn't order the UK to plant their missiles but they could order the UK to activate them should the need arise.


It isn't democratic at the moment with Trump in charge !
I often said that Blair was Bush's poodle and they would say that they saw Blair as Bushes guide dog . They saw him as articulate and intelligent in comparison to Bush.
I can see its annoying when people have a special relationship but that alone did not lead us to wars .

About the missiles , that would apply to Europe too , as far as I recall , Germany has US nuclear weapons at base so the same applies to them .
I dont know how reliable this website is but it gives an idea. It looks like the US and the host country have to approve their use.

https://news.vice.com/article/american-nuclear-weapons-in-belgium-kleine-brogel
Conventional wisdom is that the nuclear weapons in Belgium, as well as the other four European countries - the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, and Turkey - where they are stored today (there are two storage sites in Italy) tie together the Atlantic alliance in unique ways. The nuclear weapons are the ultimate American guarantee to Europe, and they're also a kind of US-European bargain: Only the US president can approve their use, but the host nations have to approve the bombs leaving the country. Thus the weapons can serve as a deterrent while also being virtually unusable.


----------



## LinznMilly

This thread has been brought to the attention of us Mods, so I'm temporarily closing this to go through it. I hope to reopen it again soon, depending on what is found, but ask you all for patience as it is a mammoth thread.


----------



## LinznMilly

I made it! All the way to the end!!  :Woot

*Puts on Mod Hat*

Please can we leave memes, cartoons, and tweets/FB posts to a minimum? Posting newspaper articles is one thing, but cartoons at the expense of Leave (or indeed Remain, although there were considerably less of those) seem to have added nothing, or very little, to the discussion. People have obviously been insulted/offended, and this thread has been heavily moderated as a result.

That being said, I am somewhat saddened that members have been offended, and haven't reported the offending posts. 

No one owes anyone else an apology for how they voted. Quite frankly, I find that notion downright bizarre.  .

Nor do I think people are entitled to know the reasons why anyone voted the way they did. It's one thing for a voter to choose to share their reasons, quite another to be demanded to.

Likewise, it isn't fair to tell remainers to "get over it". Or refer to them as Remoaners.

My own views haven't changed, and, in fact, have really be strengthened by what I've read in this thread. I feel like I've learned a lot. Perhaps I'll share those, but this isn't the post to do that, and, I think I've forgotten what the rest of the forum looks like.  :Wideyed 

I am happy to reopen this thread, but we will be keeping a close eye on it.

Thank you all for your patience.


----------



## Goblin

So, some indication of the economic impact by the government: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42977967



> The government has said the analysis is preliminary and crucially does not measure the impact of the UK's preferred option of a bespoke and comprehensive trade agreement, covering goods and financial services.


In other words.. doesn't have the option where the UK can have membership perks without membership. This isn't on the table from the EU and that was known well before the referendum.

Then there's the running count of how much brexit is costing the UK simply due to lost growth : http://costofbrexit.bitballoon.com/

So much for 350million extra, instead UK will be worse off and people will suffer.

Ireland is also asking the government for a guarantee of a soft border which the government cannot give. Leave the single market (current promise) and you will have a hard border.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Pity about jokes and cartoons, it is a somber topic... needs some lighter stuff.
Thanks for thankless job of censoring this thread...
I always wonder who are the Re/Le moaners complaining about the twits, jokes, cartoons etc..,,that is a bit sad really, especially going behind the curtain.
But that you have to keep to yourself, they cannot close this thread, but if it is limited to nothing but newspaper cuttings?
I do not envy being the Mod!!!!

Thanks once again.

Maybe we can have a fun Brexit thread? With honest warnings it may contain jokes, twits or cartoons?

By the way other threads contain those too?

So is it just banning those from this thread or general ban on such antics?


----------



## Goblin

Another couple of links worth reading. First is about UK services and why the WTO impacts services. http://www.cer.eu/insights/britains-services-firms-cant-defy-gravity-alas
Then we have the European Arrest Warrant (EAW): http://www.cer.eu/insights/arrested...t-britain-cannot-keep-european-arrest-warrant
Energy : http://www.cer.eu/publications/arch...brexit-and-energy-time-make-some-hard-choices
Ireland : http://www.cer.eu/publications/arch...ht-ulsters-rights-brexit-northern-ireland-and

Finally there's the following as more of an overview: http://www.cer.eu/insights/british-and-their-exceptionalism


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> But what about the people that lived before the 90s . That could have been your grandparents and parents and your early life .
> My ex's mum was German , she came to England when she was 17 just before the war to work for a family . She never saw her family, they were trapped in East Germany , i guess they don't count because they're history . Who cares.


At last, my long awaited right to reply.
Think you've completely misunderstood what I was saying. The past is the past. It cannot be changed or undone. What happened to people was terrible to put it mildly. Everyone should learn from that to ensure it never happens again.

It was truly shocking. The British Empire and the slave trade, the Nazi holocaust, labour camps and the Berlin Wall.

I remember the day the wall came down. I rejoiced big style I can tell you.

The future shouldn't be the past which exactly what Brexit is to me.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Think you've completely misunderstood what I was saying. The past is the past. It cannot be changed or undone. What happened to people was terrible to put it mildly. Everyone should learn from that to ensure it never happens again.
> The future shouldn't be the past which exactly what Brexit is to me.


I think you were the one who misunderstood me . You were the one that brought up the war in your mocking cartoons and then Mrs Z said we shouldn't forget and learn from history etc etc and us being Americas poodle . 
Really, as Stockwellcat said , many didn't vote Brexit because of WW2 and we won it .blah blah.

I really hope Brexit doesn't mess with your hope of retirement in Spain .

I have stuff to catch up on so I'm out of this thread now .


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I think you were the one who misunderstood me . You were the one that brought up the war in your mocking cartoons and then Mrs Z said we shouldn't forget and learn from history etc etc and us being Americas poodle .
> Really, as Stockwellcat said , many didn't vote Brexit because of WW2 and we won it .blah blah.
> 
> I really hope Brexit doesn't mess with your hope of retirement in Spain .
> 
> I have stuff to catch up on so I'm out of this thread now .


 The UK should learn from the past rather than hark back to it. Referring to the U.S. "Special relationship" brings back thoughts of US lead wars and the likes though you're right in saying it's not directly responsible for leading to war. Other things too. Now May refuses to deny US interest in the NHS as part of a post Brexit trade deal. Not something I got from a pro EU Facebook page or paper. Murdoch's Sky News reported that too.

It was the Telegraph who brought up WWII, not myself directly.

As I said earlier many weren't born when blue passports were last used and, in my fifties I never had one. Thankfully my current passport doesn't run out 'til 2026 and my brand new car came with EU plates as standard.

Hopefully by 2026 Brexit will be dead in the water or at least rejoining the SM and CU. I want Brexit stopped but at the end of the day I would be partially satisfied with a compromise, something many Brexiteers here, (not implying yourself), refuse to consider and instruct us to get over it.

Thank you for your thoughts in the last paragraph. We happen to be in Spain at the moment!


----------



## Elles

I have been criticising the extensive use of cruel memes, cartoons, caricatures and the heavy use of other peoples' opinions and articles, often linked in bold, large type, scrolling page after page, and often from other more radical websites, including 'newspaper cuttings' @cheekyscrip . Repeatedly. Nothing underhand or hidden about it. Linking statistics and research is one thing, this is something else imo.

Thank you to the moderators and particularly the mod who read the whole thing.  @LinznMilly :Writing


----------



## noushka05

Now we know why the tories were so desperate to keep their brexit impact studies hidden. Its going to be devastating for my already poor region but the North East is going to absolutely hammered. At least Rees Mogg will swell his already massive fortune though & that's all that matters (to him!)

(am I allowed to post these? )


----------



## noushka05

Gutted but certainly not surprised.

*Green Brexit is impossible to guarantee, EU is warned*

Exclusive: Leaked paper from group representing Tory MEPs says it will be impossible to ensure current standards are kept in Britain or EU

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...uarantee-say-tory-meps?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


----------



## LinznMilly

@cheekyscrip , I'm discussing your first post with other Mods', and will reply to that shortly.

@noushka05 that's fine. I seen that this morning. I'm in the North East. May the Lord have mercy on us (because this government certainly won't :Bored ).


----------



## Elles

Nothing is possible to guarantee and we don’t know that we are leaving the single market.

One thing I do predict. We will have a general election, the people of Britain will be asked to choose and it will have nothing to do with the Eu. Whether or not we get a government who are concerned with green, social and other issues it will be down to the electorate.


----------



## noushka05

LinznMilly said:


> @cheekyscrip , I'm discussing your first post with other Mods', and will reply to that shortly.
> 
> @noushka05 that's fine. I seen that this morning. I'm in the North East. May the Lord have mercy on us (because this government certainly won't :Bored ).


Thank you Linz. I really do feel for you all up there. Nope, this government is totally self serving. We're all going to suffer. If we thought austerity was bad -I fear we aint seen nothing yet. Austerity on steroids awaits. But for what gain? That is the question.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Nothing is possible to guarantee and we don't know that we are leaving the single market.
> 
> One thing I do predict. We will have a general election, the people of Britain will be asked to choose and it will have nothing to do with the Eu. Whether or not we get a government who are concerned with green, social and other issues it will be down to the electorate.


We're already worse off Elles. And when we leave the EU we'll be poorer still which means even if did get a progressive government next time, they wouldn't have the money to spend on public services. The costs of leaving are going to be astronomical. This we know for a fact. 

*A running total of how much brexit has cost so far. *http://costofbrexit.bitballoon.com/ What a shame we cant afford to fund our NHS.



And if the tories lock us into a trade deal with the US, China, Korea whilst still in office we will have to lower our standards & our NHS is gone. And don't forget the implications of leaving Euratom. The implications of leaving the customs union etc.


----------



## noushka05

The cost of Brexit from the Governments own analysis. What sort of a government would wilfully damage the economy and put workers on the dole?. There will be less money for public services. We are going to suffer terribly for this..

No deal Brexit - 2,800,000 fewer jobs / £158bn loss per year

Trade agreement Brexit (but outside the single market) - 1,750,000 fewer jobs / £99bn loss per year

Soft Brexit - 700,000 fewer jobs / £39bn loss per year

Remain in EU - No impact on jobs / No £ loss per year.


----------



## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> Now we know why the tories were so desperate to keep their brexit impact studies hidden.


You missed https://news.sky.com/story/new-brexit-leak-reveals-steep-costs-for-uk-industries-11240583



> Britain's retail sector could be hit by a 20% rise in costs after Brexit, while car makers could see a 13% hike in manufacturing costs outside the EU, according to the Government's own internal estimates, seen by Sky News.
> 
> The forecast impact of Brexit on every industrial sector of the economy reveals the estimated added costs to UK companies.
> 
> So-called non-tariff barriers as a result of leaving the EU have also been calculated to add as much as 16% in costs in the food, drink, defence and education sectors.


In the mean time we have empty words by politicians and May who changes direction and dodges questions with remarkable frequency while even at a cabinet level, they are still deciding what they actually want. Now we have their own people provide figures, not that other haven't crunched the numbers and come up with the same thing. Brexit = bad for the UK.


----------



## LinznMilly

@cheekyscrip , it's the opinion of us Mods that cartoons and jokes have no place on this thread. As I said above, they have added little to nothing to this thread, except offence. Their use on other threads depends entirely on the content and nature of that thread - we're not out to ban the use of cartoons and memes outright.

Other people's tweets are other people's opinions. I'm not sure they have a place at all on here.


----------



## Arnie83

A question for our PF leavers:

Given the sort of figures in @noushka05 's post above, what would it take for you to change your mind from 'hard' to 'soft' Brexit - I don't know what you are individually advocating - or even to cancelling the whole thing?


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> One thing I do predict. We will have a general election, the people of Britain will be asked to choose and it will have nothing to do with the Eu. Whether or not we get a government who are concerned with green, social and other issues it will be down to the electorate.


Always was down to the electorate, even within the EU. You are implying people actually have a real choice rather than be limited to basically 2 parties and their policies.


----------



## Elles

Probably something that’s been forecasted actually happening. The problem is the exaggerated fear mongering. None of it happened and you know what happened to the boy who cried wolf.

One positive if it is a hard Brexit, successive government will no longer have an Eu to blame and only the British electorate to answer to. 

When people say ‘we’re worse off’, I’m not actually. So maybe it would be better to show specifics of a person or persons who are worse off because we left the Eu.


----------



## noushka05

Goblin said:


> You missed https://news.sky.com/story/new-brexit-leak-reveals-steep-costs-for-uk-industries-11240583
> 
> In the mean time we have empty words by politicians and May who changes direction and dodges questions with remarkable frequency while even at a cabinet level, they are still deciding what they actually want. Now we have their own people provide figures, not that other haven't crunched the numbers and come up with the same thing. Brexit = bad for the UK.


Brexit really is the gift that keeps giving.

The Japanese Ambassador has just given May a stark warning._ "If there's no profitability continuing operations in UK no private company can continue operations.......its as simple as that....."_

I can't believe so many people still believe brexit is going to be anything but a disaster.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> A question for our PF leavers:
> 
> Given the sort of figures in @noushka05 's post above, what would it take for you to change your mind from 'hard' to 'soft' Brexit - I don't know what you are individually advocating - or even to cancelling the whole thing?


IMO these are forecasts and have not happend yet so are not facts. I still believe that the UK will be better off out of the EU. I don't think the whole thing should be cancelled at all, there are no grounds to call it off. These figures are forecasts or predictions and nothing else so I am not letting them bother me.


----------



## Elles

noushka05 said:


> Brexit really is the gift that keeps giving.
> 
> The Japanese Ambassador has just given May a stark warning._ "If there's no profitability continuing operations in UK no private company can continue operations.......its as simple as that....."_
> 
> I can't believe so many people still believe brexit is going to be anything but a disaster.


I can't believe that she doesn't know. Everyone knows that private companies need to make a profit or they fold. What's with all these hi falutin' folk stating the obvious? 

Actually eta unless the government has a hand in it, then they keep on going and the directors retire to The Caribbean..


----------



## Elles

You know you’re saying U.K. manufacturing will be more expensive etc etc. Where is the money going? Who gets it? Who is better off? So let’s say it cost £10 to make something before Brexit and £12 afterwards. Who gets the £2?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> You know you're saying U.K. manufacturing will be more expensive etc etc. Where is the money going? Who gets it? Who is better off? So let's say it cost £10 to make something before Brexit and £12 afterwards. Who gets the £2?


The custom officers?


----------



## Arnie83

Elles said:


> Probably something that's been forecasted actually happening. The problem is the exaggerated fear mongering. None of it happened and you know what happened to the boy who cried wolf.
> 
> One positive if it is a hard Brexit, successive government will no longer have an Eu to blame and only the British electorate to answer to.
> 
> When people say 'we're worse off', I'm not actually. So maybe it would be better to show specifics of a person or persons who are worse off because we left the Eu.


When you imply that nothing forecast has actually happened, are you discounting the fall in the pound, the increase in inflation and the slow-down in growth? Because all of those have happened.

When people say 'we're worse off' they should be adding 'than we would have been'. As Carney reiterated, by the end of 2018 he expects the UK economy to be about 2% lower than it would otherwise have been.

But I guess you have seen no evidence of that - how could you notice the absence of something that has never been there - so you don't accept it.

Which really begs the first question again!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Probably something that's been forecasted actually happening. The problem is the exaggerated fear mongering. None of it happened and you know what happened to the boy who cried wolf.
> 
> One positive if it is a hard Brexit, successive government will no longer have an Eu to blame and only the British electorate to answer to.
> 
> When people say 'we're worse off', I'm not actually. So maybe it would be better to show specifics of a person or persons who are worse off because we left the Eu.


Gibraltar with hard border: tourists not coming, queues, workforce?
No access to EU - funds lost! Financial services? Gaming - going. Jobs lost. Basically facing ruin of our economy


----------



## KittenKong

Another Leave lie exposed as I thought but needed confirmation.

"Bring back the crown on pint glasses", I leaned even though I'm sure I've seen them co existing happily with CE marked ones.

Just like the blue passports that could have been reintroduced at any time. You can blame Mrs Thatcher for that if they meant so much to you.

Well, in Spain, I was served a pint of nice draft Spanish beer this evening in a Fosters glass with the crown on it! Amazing how many were taken in by the bull**** isn't it.

I'm very much enjoying the European community here with Spanish, French, German, English and Dutch people.

What next from the Leave brigade? Bring back spirits served in 1/6th gill? Never got to know what a gill was, presumably a fraction of a fluid ounce. 25ml is far easier to understand as there's 28ml in a fluid ounce.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> "Bring back the crown on pint glasses", I leaned even though I'm sure I've seen them co existing happily with CE marked ones.


Well I never heard that one being mentioned anywhere before so that is news to me. Not fussed if there is a crown or a CE mark on a glass as all I use a glass for is to drink out of, I don't go around looking for these on them.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *IMO these are forecasts and have not happend yet so are not facts. I still believe that the UK will be better off out of the EU.* I don't think the whole thing should be cancelled at all, there are no grounds to call it off. These figures are forecasts or predictions and nothing else so I am not letting them bother me.


Okay, but if you don't believe the forecasts - every reputable one of which suggests we will be worse off - what leads you to believe we will be better off?

What makes your own forecast better than those of the experts?

Where, specifically, do you disagree with their analysis such that you can discount it in favour of your own forecast?

Do you, for example, find fault with the gravity model of international trade that has proved so robust in its predictions for so long now? Or what?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Okay, but if you don't believe the forecasts - every reputable one of which suggests we will be worse off - what leads you to believe we will be better off?
> 
> What makes your own forecast better than those of the experts?
> 
> Where, specifically, do you disagree with their analysis such that you can discount it in favour of your own forecast?
> 
> Do you, for example, find fault with the gravity model of international trade that has proved so robust in its predictions for so long now? Or what?


Sorry but unlike these so called experts I cannot see into the future. Do they have a time machine/crystal ball to be able to see these so called facts they use to scare people with? I would rather live in the here and now.

The facts as I see it at the moment have happened (in the past). We all know what they are so there is no need for me to repeat them.

There is to much fear mongering over what so called experts say and later these predictions get dismissed. This has certainly happened alot since 24th June 2016 and before the referendum when David Cameron and Company tried scaremongering everyone.

As for cancelling the Brexit process. Why? For what reason? There is no valid reason to cancel the negotiations or the Brexit process.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> There is to much fear mongering over what so called experts say and later these predictions get dismissed. This has certainly happened alot since 24th June 2016 and before the referendum when David Cameron and Company tried scaremongering everyone.


Let's see predictions, many of which are coming true from the remain campaign vs deliberate lies and misinformation, proven false from the leave campaign. Isn't it funny how nobody who voted leave was influenced by those lies from the leave campaign but can only regurgitate them as reasons to leave.



> As for cancelling the Brexit process. Why? For what reason? There is no valid reason to cancel the negotiations or the Brexit process.


Comes back to why leave in the first place. Valid reasoning is missing for that path of action. Far more reasons to cancel negotiations. It is causing economic damage now. not simply in the future.


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> Probably something that's been forecasted actually happening. The problem is the exaggerated fear mongering. None of it happened and you know what happened to the boy who cried wolf.
> 
> One positive if it is a hard Brexit, successive government will no longer have an Eu to blame and only the British electorate to answer to.
> 
> When people say 'we're worse off', I'm not actually. So maybe it would be better to show specifics of a person or persons who are worse off because we left the Eu.


. Mogg & Baker were caught out deliberately trying to undermine our nations civil service. Baker has apologised for peddling Rees Moggs smears on the 'treasury rigged forecasts' when the lies were proven to be untrue. Not so Mogg himself though. He just doubled down on his lies. It doesn't take a genius to work out where Mogg got that strategy from. He is using the exact same tactics as Trump. Its a terrifying thought this man could be our next MP. He might speak posh but his ideology is on par with Trumps.

Jacob Rees-*Mogg** met with Steve Bannon, a former adviser to Donald Trump, on Thursday to discuss conservative political strategy, according to reports.*
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...e-bannon-to-discuss-uk-strategy-a3708391.html



Elles said:


> I can't believe that she doesn't know. Everyone knows that private companies need to make a profit or they fold. What's with all these hi falutin' folk stating the obvious?
> 
> Actually eta unless the government has a hand in it, then they keep on going and the directors retire to The Caribbean..


Of course she knows it. The problem is May isn't really in the driving seat, the extreme brexiters are in control. Mogg & Johnson are effectively running this government & they don't care that leaving the single market & the customs union will be detrimental to businesses - hence the Japanese Ambassadors warning -_ the stakes are high_



Elles said:


> You know you're saying U.K. manufacturing will be more expensive etc etc. Where is the money going? Who gets it? Who is better off? So let's say it cost £10 to make something before Brexit and £12 afterwards. Who gets the £2?


We have to fall back on WTO rules when we leave the single market & the customs union. Companies will be forced to pay tariffs. They are the rules, we've known this from the beginning.


----------



## Satori

LinznMilly said:


> @cheekyscrip , it's the opinion of us Mods that cartoons and jokes have no place on this thread. As I said above, they have added little to nothing to this thread, except offence. Their use on other threads depends entirely on the content and nature of that thread - we're not out to ban the use of cartoons and memes outright.
> 
> Other people's tweets are other people's opinions. I'm not sure they have a place at all on here.


That is very clear. Thank you.

Fwiw, I could not agree more. Intelligently chosen memes and cartoons *can* enhance an discussion for sure. Used as an alternative to discussion though, not at all.

(It might be worth adding - and I speak as a guilty party - that copy/paste inserts from news websites breach intellectual property laws, more often than not, whereas links to such content do not.)


----------



## Satori

Arnie83 said:


> A question for our PF leavers:
> 
> Given the sort of figures in @noushka05 's post above, what would it take for you to change your mind from 'hard' to 'soft' Brexit - I don't know what you are individually advocating - or even to cancelling the whole thing?


Nothing could ever make me prefer a soft Brexit. A soft Brexit is the stupidest of all outcomes; the worst of all worlds.

I would very much prefer remain vs soft Brexit as, I imagine, would all rational people, be they remainers or leavers?

..... Unless I am missing something of course. Genuine question: Is there a case for soft Brexit being preferable to Remain? I have never heard any such argument from anyone.


----------



## Jesthar

Satori said:


> Nothing could ever make me prefer a soft Brexit. A soft Brexit is the stupidest of all outcomes; the worst of all worlds.
> 
> I would very much prefer remain vs soft Brexit as, I imagine, would all rational people, be they remainers or leavers?
> 
> ..... Unless I am missing something of course. Genuine question: *Is there a case for soft Brexit being preferable to Remain? I have never heard any such argument from anyone*.


 Not that I'm aware. I haven't heard anyone espousing it, certainly.

Genuine question - what, for you, makes hard Brexit preferable to soft Brexit?


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Gibraltar with hard border: tourists not coming, queues, workforce?
> No access to EU - funds lost! Financial services? Gaming - going. Jobs lost. Basically facing ruin of our economy


Has it happened yet? The virtual gambling based in Gib is relatively new isn't it? With 2 gambling addicts in the family, I'm finding it hard to sympathise with large gambling corporations tbh. They're there for tax purposes and they're moving to Malta for tax purposes.


----------



## Elles

If the extreme brexiteers are in control there would be no article 50 or negotiations imo. They would have left.


----------



## Elles

More on Jacob Rees-Mogg and his expected personal windfall

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/02/08/2198570/jacob-rees-moggs-huge-personal-windfall-after-brexit/

The usual fake news. Though at least some companies are expecting to be better off after Brexit which is nice.


----------



## Zaros

FAKE NEWS! FAKE NEWS! Is all you seem to hear people cry these days. I wonder what the true cost of fake news is, other than the sum of a BBC TV license?

If there appears to be so much fake bloody news out there, why is anybody bothering to post links to news reports at all. :Wacky

We're all being lied to. This thread is about which lie appeals to us the most.

Fake News definition: _Any fact you find unsavoury or unfavourable._


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> *Sorry but unlike these so called experts I cannot see into the future. Do they have a time machine/crystal ball to be able to see these so called facts they use to scare people with? I would rather live in the here and now.*
> 
> The facts as I see it at the moment have happened (in the past). We all know what they are so there is no need for me to repeat them.
> 
> There is to much fear mongering over what so called experts say and later these predictions get dismissed. This has certainly happened alot since 24th June 2016 and before the referendum when David Cameron and Company tried scaremongering everyone.
> 
> As for cancelling the Brexit process. Why? For what reason? There is no valid reason to cancel the negotiations or the Brexit process.


Sorry to be a pain, but if you cannot see into the future, why do you 'believe we will be better off'?


----------



## noushka05

Elles said:


> More on Jacob Rees-Mogg and his expected personal windfall
> 
> https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/02/08/2198570/jacob-rees-moggs-huge-personal-windfall-after-brexit/
> 
> The usual fake news. Though at least some companies are expecting to be better off after Brexit which is nice.


Dismissing everything you don't want to hear as fake news or fear mongering isn't very helpful Elles. 'Fake news' - now where have I heard that before?. hmm

Like many of the leading brextremists Mogg is a tax avoider. If the UK is still in the EU after 2019 firms like Moggs investment management vehicle with £9.6b under management - which has deals with companies with 'tax haven status' - will become subject to the new EU clampdown on tax avoidance. This is not 'fake news'.

Its obvious why Mogg is so desperate to drag us out before this kicks in. Hes a crook. MPs have also called for him to be investigated for funnelling tax payers money into the hard line pro brexit lobby group. https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/m...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

We could have fully funded our NHS & public services with the billions of lost revenue stashed in tax havens..



















https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/09/brexiters-put-money-offshore-tax-haven


----------



## Arnie83

Satori said:


> Nothing could ever make me prefer a soft Brexit. A soft Brexit is the stupidest of all outcomes; the worst of all worlds.
> 
> I would very much prefer remain vs soft Brexit as, I imagine, would all rational people, be they remainers or leavers?
> 
> ..... Unless I am missing something of course. Genuine question: Is there a case for soft Brexit being preferable to Remain? I have never heard any such argument from anyone.


I can't think of a reason to prefer a soft Brexit over Remain. But of the options available it seems to me the least economically damaging.

Of course I would expect there to be nuances of 'soft' and hopefully once the government settles on a plan - if ever - I would hope they might negotiate on that basis. Assuming that calling it all off remains off the table.


----------



## noushka05

Do any pro leave supporters care at all about the consequences on Ireland if we leave the single market & customs union?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> Has it happened yet? The virtual gambling based in Gib is relatively new isn't it? With 2 gambling addicts in the family, I'm finding it hard to sympathise with large gambling corporations tbh. They're there for tax purposes and they're moving to Malta for tax purposes.


Happening now, yes, it will not stop gambling, but it will affect jobs here, but hurray for Malta, our financial sector is being courted by Malta officials too and business is moving there but by bit.
In this sense we are like London. With business moving out of City to Paris, Dublin and so on.,,Happening right now.


----------



## noushka05

Has anyone seen the car crash interview with Greg Hands. Apparently this hapless tool is our *Trade Ministe*r:Jawdrop Gawd help us.


----------



## Pardis

Oh that's just embarrassing... But expected as well. Heaven forbid anyone gives a straight forward answer.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry to be a pain, but if you cannot see into the future, why do you 'believe we will be better off'?


But that isn't seeing into the future. I believe the UK would be better off out of the EU. How is that predicting a future? It isn't.

You asked a question to pf leave voters and then because you don't like the answers try to defend why you voted remain. You need to be a bit more open to peoples replies instead of trying to continually disprove everything people tell you in answering your questions.

My reply to your question is simple. I believe the UK would be better off out of the EU.


----------



## Happy Paws2

The Japanese weren't happy last night.


----------



## Satori

Jesthar said:


> Not that I'm aware. I haven't heard anyone espousing it, certainly.


No, I was just reflecting on the question as to what would persuade a leaver to switch positions to support for a soft brexit.

Never a day goes by that I don't hear somebody petitioning for a soft Brexit though, be they social notworker, celeb, business leader or politician from either side of the house (umma, Clarke, soubry, cable et al....). Can they, the politicians in particular, not show a shred of integrity and petition to remain? Some even claim that a soft Brexit is what their constituents voted for. Liars.



Jesthar said:


> Not that I'm aware. I haven't heard anyone espousing it, certainly.
> 
> Genuine question - what, for you, makes hard Brexit preferable to soft Brexit?


That's just paraphrasing 'why do you prefer leave to remain'. Asked and answered ad nauseum.


----------



## Satori

noushka05 said:


> Do any pro leave supporters care at all about the consequences on Ireland if we leave the single market & customs union?


I do, but I doubt the consequences will be severe and hope they will not be. Any such damage will be inflicted by the EU if there is any, not by the UK. Acceptable collateral damage in the broad scheme of things anyway.


----------



## Calvine

LinznMilly said:


> it's the opinion of us Mods that cartoons and jokes have no place on this thread.


Well said that girl!


----------



## stockwellcat.

noushka05 said:


> Do any pro leave supporters care at all about the consequences on Ireland if we leave the single market & customs union?


I do care about Northern Ireland. The UK Prime Minister has made it clear that the UK does not seek to have a hard border on the Ireland of Ireland, but lets see what the EU (That includes the republic of Ireland) decide as they are the ones talking about a hard border instead of trying to avoid it happening.


----------



## Elles

We could fully fund our NHS with the money from tax avoidance. We could also give the NHS the money we give to the Eu.

We could also vote in a Government that would look after our best interests, if we feel the current one isn’t.

Do you think any of these would or will happen?

Why do we need the Eu to tell our government what to do? None of the above have anything to do with the Eu. Wanting to stay in the Eu because your politics aren’t in line with the current elected British government and you want the Eu to interfere isn’t a good reason and would come under the ‘taking back control’ that people insist our government didn’t lose.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> You need to be a bit more open to peoples replies instead of trying to continually disprove everything people tell you in answering your questions.


There's a difference between trying to disprove and providing evidence based information demonstrating something is false. Simply as you don't like the result makes it no less true. Rather than repeating what has been shown to be false, you need to actually look at the evidence which shows you are wrong. Repeating "UK will be better off" does not make it true simply through repetition. You are unable to show anything which shows the UK better off outside the EU which actually stands up to reason and the facts as they stand.


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ll-stay-in-single-market-after-brexit-eu-says


----------



## KittenKong

Satori said:


> I do, but I doubt the consequences will be severe and hope they will not be. Any such damage will be inflicted by the EU if there is any, not by the UK. Acceptable collateral damage in the broad scheme of things anyway.


So, what you're saying is it will be the EU's fault even though the UK government unilaterally decided to leave, not forgetting NI, like Gibraltar and Scotland voted to remain!

Heard it all now.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> I do care about Northern Ireland. The UK Prime Minister has made it clear that the UK does not seek to have a hard border on the Ireland of Ireland, but lets see what the EU (That includes the republic of Ireland) decide as they are the ones talking about a hard border instead of trying to avoid it happening.


Leave the CU and SM= Hard Border between NI-UK and ROI=EU.

It's that simple.


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Leave the CU and SM= Hard Border between NI-UK and ROI=EU.
> 
> It's that simple.


Not as simple as that no.

What about the CTA (Common Travel Area) which predates the EEC, EC and EU (CTA agreement made in 1922)?

This question came up in Parliament a number of times before PMQ's (on Wednesday) this week in the Northern Ireland Questions session. It also doesn't help that there is no Northern Ireland Assembly for the last 13 months or there abouts.

The CTA was in the position papers about Northern Ireland and the border.


----------



## stockwellcat.

Well there might be good news on Northern Ireland as it seems they are on the verge of forming a new Power Sharing Northern Ireland Assembly. I hope it happens but we have been here before and the whole thing fell through last time.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-powersharing-deal-edges-closer-36584469.html


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> But that isn't seeing into the future. I believe the UK would be better off out of the EU. How is that predicting a future? It isn't.
> 
> You asked a question to pf leave voters and then because you don't like the answers try to defend why you voted remain. You need to be a bit more open to peoples replies instead of trying to continually disprove everything people tell you in answering your questions.
> 
> My reply to your question is simple. I believe the UK would be better off out of the EU.


Thanks for the advice.

When you say 'better off' do you mean economically?


----------



## noushka05

Satori said:


> I do, but I doubt the consequences will be severe and hope they will not be. Any such damage will be inflicted by the EU if there is any, not by the UK. Acceptable collateral damage in the broad scheme of things anyway.





stockwellcat. said:


> I do care about Northern Ireland. The UK Prime Minister has made it clear that the UK does not seek to have a hard border on the Ireland of Ireland, but lets see what the EU (That includes the republic of Ireland) decide as they are the ones talking about a hard border instead of trying to avoid it happening.


This shambles is not the EUs fault. They have been more than accommodating. The government knew the rules on the single market & customs union . And the EU have been clear from the beginning - May did a deal we would stay during the transition - now reneged on. Who in their right minds will trust us now? The tories are so far right now they're ukip :/ .



Elles said:


> We could fully fund our NHS with the money from tax avoidance. We could also give the NHS the money we give to the Eu.
> 
> We could also vote in a Government that would look after our best interests, if we feel the current one isn't.
> 
> Do you think any of these would or will happen?
> 
> Why do we need the Eu to tell our government what to do? None of the above have anything to do with the Eu. Wanting to stay in the Eu because your politics aren't in line with the current elected British government and you want the Eu to interfere isn't a good reason and would come under the 'taking back control' that people insist our government didn't lose.


What you don't seem to understand( despite me showing you the Lancet impact studies over & over again) is we already know Brexit will be 'potentially catastrophic' for our NHS. Now surely you aren't going dismiss the Lancet studies as 'fake news' & fear mongering? And we're are already poorer thanks to the tories & brexit.

Prior to brexit we were top of the table now we've sunk to the bottom. Leaving is going to be astronomical. The governments own numbers show that the cost of leaving both the single market and the customs union is so damaging that it cannot be offset by trade deals with rest of world. So how are we going to be better off by leaving???











Yes the tories will punish us with the severest austerity , they will rip up all those EU regulations which protect us & our environment when we leave, but even if we had a progressive government I'd still want to stay. As I _still_ haven't seen one tangible scrap of evidence that leaving will benefit us in someway.. Our NHS will be severely affected by leaving the EU Elles. And what about euratom?.

What about the impact leaving euratom will have on cancer sufferers Elles?

*Brexit's most toxic fallout*

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/brexit-toxic-fallout-1-5368921

We're not 'taking back control'. We never lost control. The UK has lost 76 out of total of 2466 EU legislation votes. And the reason it lost those 76 votes is they were votes in which the UK didnt take part because the UK has opt outs in those areas. So there hasn't been a single major EU law implemented against our will. But with the tories withdrawal bill we'll soon know what its like to really 'lose control'.


----------



## Goblin

Elles said:


> Has it happened yet? The virtual gambling based in Gib is relatively new isn't it? With 2 gambling addicts in the family, I'm finding it hard to sympathise with large gambling corporations tbh. They're there for tax purposes and they're moving to Malta for tax purposes.


Weren't you saying that "standards" were not needed as people have a choice. We can ignore things like American poor quality imports as people have a choice to buy or not. What is gambling if not a choice?



stockwellcat. said:


> Not as simple as that no.
> 
> What about the CTA (Common Travel Area) which predates the EEC, EC and EU (CTA agreement made in 1922)?


Funny that you complain that this thread is repeating itself. Why attempt to use points when you have already been shown that it was *known before the referendum that leaving would mean the adherance to the CTA could not guaranteed*? The UK, on leaving the EU has made adherance to the CTA a problem for which there is real solution. When voting to leave the EU you voted to potentially break the CTA. Unless of course the UK adheres to the rules of the single market. Tell me how can the UK control their borders whilst having a completely open one? What does this mean for immigration, security, trade etc?


----------



## noushka05

Happy Paws said:


> The Japanese weren't happy last night.


Its worth reminding people what the Ambassador said. The hard right tories just don't care how many jobs are at risk.


----------



## noushka05

Banks seem to be at the end of their tether with this shambolic governments farcical indecision. https://www.globalcapital.com/artic...scares-banks-as-city-urged-to-pay-its-own-way


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Weren't you saying that "standards" were not needed as people have a choice. We can ignore things like American poor quality imports as people have a choice to buy or not. What is gambling if not a choice?
> 
> Funny that you complain that this thread is repeating itself. Why attempt to use points when you have already been shown that it was *known before the referendum that leaving would mean the adherance to the CTA could not guaranteed*? The UK, on leaving the EU has made adherance to the CTA a problem for which there is real solution. When voting to leave the EU you voted to potentially break the CTA. Unless of course the UK adheres to the rules of the single market. Tell me how can the UK control their borders whilst having a completely open one? What does this mean for immigration, security, trade etc?


No one voted to break up the CTA agreement in the EU Referendum as the CTA agreement is maintained by the UK, Isle of Man and Irish Governments and nothing to do with the EU. The CTA is a bilaterial agreement between the UK, Isle of Man and Ireland.

The UK Government mentioned maintaining the CTA in its position papers after Brexit outside of the Customs Union and Single Market.

*MP's mentioned the CTA in the Northern Ireland Questions and Answers session in Parliament on Wednesday*. This is where this came from @Goblin not wanting to reignite an old debate.

Anyhow. Northern Ireland *might *have a voice soon with the devolved area EU negotiations (which go on behind the scenes). It looks as is Arelene Foster is to become First Minister and the new Sinn Fein Leader to become her Deputy if this power sharing agreement comes to fruition.


----------



## Jesthar

Satori said:


> No, I was just reflecting on the question as to what would persuade a leaver to switch positions to support for a soft brexit.
> 
> Never a day goes by that I don't hear somebody petitioning for a soft Brexit though, be they social notworker, celeb, business leader or politician from either side of the house (umma, Clarke, soubry, cable et al....).


Given that the government has been repeatedly asserting that Brexit is going to happen, perhaps they are choosing to spend their energy campaigning for damage limitation instead?



Satori said:


> Can they, the politicians in particular, not show a shred of integrity and petition to remain? Some even claim that a soft Brexit is what their constituents voted for. Liars.


I think calling them liars for saying their constituents desire a soft Brexit is a bit steep. Exactly what the 'EU' part of 'Leave the EU' meant in real terms was never specifically defined prior to the election, which has lead to a lot of confusion and arguing since. As far as I personally can tell, the hardest of hard Brexiteers believe it means leaving not only the EU itself, but also the Customs Union, the Single Market and any other agency or organisation that is connected in any way to the EU - hence why the airlines are so concerned about complications with air travel, I believe at least one airline is already a 'Brexit clause' to 2019 and beyond advance tickets which renders the tickets invalid if the aviation issues surrounding leaving the EU aren't sorted by then. The 'standard' hard Brexiteers (again, by my definition) want to ditch at least the Customs Union and the Single Market, and (like the hardest of the hard) would also be happy trading on WTO rules for the next several years. From there it's confused sliding scale of those who want to remain in one or the other of the CU or the SM plus some/all of the other entities, finishing up with those who just wanted to leave the EU and only the EU and keep everything else.

Thats just MY experience of people who voted 'Leave' too. I dread to think how many more permutations exist beyond my sphere of experience!



Satori said:


> That's just paraphrasing 'why do you prefer leave to remain'. Asked and answered ad nauseum.


Actually it wasn't, I'm genuinely interested. Soft Brexit is not Remain, but again speaking personally then if the Govenrment do hit the eject button I'd much rather a soft landing than a hard one. I'd rather not go back to the days of things taking weeks to clear customs, or having to standards test to multiple different sets of rules rather than just one in order to access the majority of foreign markets for starters, and that's just the tip of that particular iceberg. So I genuinely am curious as to why a hard Brexit is so appealing to many. I do understand if you'd prefer not to answer, though.


----------



## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> No one voted to break up the CTA agreement in the EU Referendum as the CTA agreement is maintained by the UK, Isle of Man and Irish Governments and nothing to do with the EU. The CTA is a bilaterial agreement between the UK, Isle of Man and Ireland.


No you voted knowing, unless you didn't know what you were voting for that the CTA agreement could not be guaranteed and that a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland was more than likely. It's between the UK, Isle of Man and the EU as Ireland is part of the EU and part of schengen area. Maybe you could explain why you think 26 countries should compromise their security, trade and immigration arrangements simply because the UK decided to leave the UK?



> The UK Government mentioned maintaining the CTA in its position papers after Brexit outside of the Customs Union and Single Market.


Ah the UK Government says.. no mention of how practical it is or how to realistically achieve it. There were also 58 impact assessments apparantly. Notice you avoid the question about how does the UK control it's borders with one wide open? In case you haven't noticed, politicians say things which are not actually true. Politicians have also stated leaving would be easy, leaving would mean the UK was a land of milk and honey. Trade deals will miraculously appear to replace the advantages 70% of UK trade currently enjoys due to the EU (single market and associated trade agreements with the rest of the world) etc etc. Of course there's a reason leave politicians like you to listen to them rather than the experts and looking at the evidence.



> *MP's mentioned the CTA in the Northern Ireland Questions and Answers session in Parliament on Wednesday*. This is where this came from @Goblin not wanting to reignite an old debate.


May have been mentioned, already been shown that the CTA could not be guaranteed. The government still doesn't have a solution. Even though part of the first phase of negotiations, it was simply postponed to the second.



> Anyhow. Northern Ireland *might *have a voice soon with the devolved area EU negotiations (which go on behind the scenes). It looks as is Arelene Foster is to become First Minister and the new Sinn Fein Leader to become her Deputy if this power sharing agreement comes to fruition.


Ah Northern Ireland already has a voice. It's called the DUP "supporting" May.


----------



## Zaros

Elles said:


> We could fully fund our NHS with the money from....


The fake war on terror and selling arms to fight an imaginary enemy.

I mean how much do you reckon it costs to build and fully arm a Jet fighter in order for it to bomb a herder of livestock, his wife, his children and his humble mud hut in the back of beyond?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> No you voted knowing, unless you didn't know what you were voting for that the CTA agreement could not be guaranteed (as stated known before the referendum) and that a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland was more than likely. It's between the UK, Isle of Man and the EU as Ireland is part of the EU and part of schengen area. Maybe you could explain why you think 26 countries should compromise their security, trade and immigration arrangements simply because the UK decided to leave the UK?
> 
> Ah the UK Government says.. no mention of how practical it is or how to realistically achieve it. There were also 58 impact assessments apparantly. Notice you avoid the question about how does the UK control it's borders with one wide open? Politicians have also stated leaving would be easy, leaving would mean the UK was a land of milk and honey. Trade deals will miraculously appear to replace the advantages 70% of trade currently enjoys due to the EU (single market and associated trade agreements with the rest of the world).
> 
> May have been mentioned, already been shown that the CTA could not be guaranteed. The government still doesn't have a solution. Even though part of the first phase of negotiations, it was simply postponed to the second.
> 
> Ah Northern Ireland already has a voice. It's called the DUP "supporting" May.


According to the Irish Times (From the Republic of Ireland) there is an update on this saying the Irish Citizens rights will be protected after Brexit under the CTA, article dated 22nd December 2017. Irish Citizens will still be allowed to travel and live, study and work in the UK under the CTA after Brexit as they do now and vise versa. An agreement was made in Brussels in early December 2017 regarding the CTA according to the Irish Times.

















https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...common-travel-area-rights-protected-1.3337125


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> According to the Irish Times (From the Republic of Ireland) there is an update on this saying the Irish Citizens rights will be protected after Brexit under the CTA article dated 22nd December 2017. Irish Citizens will still be allowed to travel and live in the UK under the CTA after Brexit as they do now. An agreement was made in Brussels in early December 2017 regarding the CTA according to the Irish Times.
> https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...common-travel-area-rights-protected-1.3337125


You mention Irish citizens. Surely their credentials will have to be checked to ensure they are indeed Irish and not from other parts of the EU!


----------



## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> You mention Irish citizens. Surely their credentials will have to be checked to ensure they are indeed Irish and not from other parts of the EU!


Well yes you would have to show your passport or photographic ID to register for tax etc like you do in the EU. If you mean at ports and airports, you have to do this currently anyway between Ireland and the UK.

For example my dad went to Northern Ireland from the Manchester on the 29th January 2018 and returned on the 1st February 2018 and had to show photographic ID at Belfast Airport he produced his passport both on arrival and departure.


----------



## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> Well yes you would have to show your passport or photographic ID to register for tax etc like you do in the EU. If you mean at ports and airports, you have to do this currently anyway between Ireland and the UK.


Northern Ireland _*is*_ the UK. Currently no ID needs to be shown to cross the Ireland / NI border. After Brexit, if it is only Irish citizens who are allowed to be part of the CTA, how do you stop non-Irish EU citizens from entering the UK (=NI) without a hard border?


----------



## Arnie83

And @stockwellcat. when you say we would be 'better off' outside the EU, do you mean economically?


----------



## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Northern Ireland _*is*_ the UK. Currently no ID needs to be shown to cross the Ireland / NI border. After Brexit, if it is only Irish citizens who are allowed to be part of the CTA, how do you stop non-Irish EU citizens from entering the UK (=NI) without a hard border?


That's wrong.
My dad flew from Manchester to Belfast and had to produce ID and used his passport in both directions.


----------



## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> Well yes you would have to show your passport or photographic ID to register for tax etc like you do in the EU. If you mean at ports and airports, you have to do this currently anyway between Ireland and the UK.
> 
> For example my dad went to Northern Ireland from the Manchester on the 29th January 2018 and returned on the 1st February 2018 and had to show photographic ID at Belfast Airport he produced his passport both on arrival and departure.


Yes, that's correct but currently there's an open border between the ROI and NI.


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## KittenKong

stockwellcat. said:


> That's wrong.
> My dad flew from Manchester to Belfast and had to produce ID and used his passport in both directions.


I believe that was also the case when we flew from Newcastle to Heathrow a few years ago despite it being exclusively in England!


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## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> That's wrong.
> My dad flew from Manchester to Belfast and had to produce ID and used his passport in both directions.


Yes, you have to do that between London and Glasgow as well. Any flight you need to show ID and in the UK passport is the only acceptable one as far as I know for UK citizens.


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## stockwellcat.

Goblin said:


> Yes, you have to do that between London and Glasgow as well. Any flight you need to show ID and in the UK passport is the only acceptable one as far as I know for UK citizens.


And Irish ones because in Northern Ireland which is part of the UK citizens are entitled to UK and Irish passports.


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## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> According to the Irish Times (From the Republic of Ireland) there is an update on this saying the Irish Citizens rights will be protected after Brexit under the CTA, article dated 22nd December 2017.
> 
> https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...common-travel-area-rights-protected-1.3337125


Ah so this can be summed up by the "politicians of the foreign office have said". No mention that any actual agreement involving how to achieve it has happened. Wouldn't as it's been postponed to the next phase of negotiations with the EU as the obvious way to achieve it is staying in the single market.


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## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Yes, that's correct but currently there's an open border between the ROI and NI.


People with Irish and UK passports are entitled to travel freely between both countries under the CTA just like with being in the EU free movement. Obviously passports at Airports and Ports will get checked as we established above. The open border if closed in Ireland will affect goods and services not people. It will subject goods and services to checks. But correct me if I am wrong UK customs already check lorries and vehicles before they board the Euro Tunnel and ferries in Calais and in Belfast and Dublin as well before they board the ferries from their ports.


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## Arnie83

stockwellcat. said:


> That's wrong.
> My dad flew from Manchester to Belfast and had to produce ID and used his passport in both directions.


Not sure what Manchester has got to do with anything since it's not on the island of Ireland.

Currently, thanks to the CTA people can walk across the border from the Republic of Ireland into Northern Ireland with no border checks.

Once the UK leaves the EU, how can you stop non-Irish EU citizens from walking across the border from the Republic of Ireland (= the EU) into Northern Ireland (= the UK) if there is no hard border (= ID checks) ?


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## stockwellcat.

Arnie83 said:


> Not sure what Manchester has got to do with anything since it's not on the island of Ireland.
> 
> Currently, thanks to the CTA people can walk across the border from the Republic of Ireland into Northern Ireland.


If you read what I said. My dad flew from Manchester to Belfast (Belfast being on the Island of Ireland) and had to show his passport like everyone else entering or leaving Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland being part of the UK. Others pointed out you have to do this going to other parts of the UK within the UK. I do believe you have to show your passport at any ferry point or airport when leaving or entering any country in Europe and around the world.


> Once the UK leaves the EU, how can you stop non-Irish EU citizens from walking across the border from the Republic of Ireland (= the EU) into Northern Ireland (= the UK) if there is no hard border (= ID checks) ?


That's what they are trying to thrash out in the negotistions at the moment.


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## Goblin

stockwellcat. said:


> I do believe you have to show your passport at any ferry point or airport when leaving or entering any country in Europe and around the world.


No you don't. Travelling from the UK to Northern Ireland for example you do not. Now one of the red lines the government has stated is moving the "border" to the separation between northern ireland and the mainland which would seem one of the simplest solutions. It isn't acceptable to have NI retaining the single market either as part of the UK.



> That's what they are trying to thrash out in the negotistions at the moment.


According the your previous link everything is settled. The truth is, it hasn't been despite the foreign office's assertions. It's simply been postponed.


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## KittenKong

¡Hora de Una cerveza!







III


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## stockwellcat.

KittenKong said:


> Hora de Una cerveza!
> View attachment 344631


Disfruta tu cerveza


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## Arnie83

Arnie83 said:


> Northern Ireland _*is*_ the UK. Currently no ID needs to be shown to cross the Ireland / NI border. After Brexit, if it is only Irish citizens who are allowed to be part of the CTA, how do you stop non-Irish EU citizens from entering the UK (=NI) without a hard border?





stockwellcat. said:


> That's what they are trying to thrash out in the negotistions at the moment.


So you don't know. Which is absolutely fair enough, since no-one else does either.

This from Barnier this morning, as per the BBC report, among many

*The EU's chief Brexit negotiator has repeated that a UK decision to leave the single market and customs union would make Irish border checks "unavoidable".*​
May has said that alignment of regulations between NI and Ireland / EU is a possibility (it was in the withdrawal agreement). But she's also said that NI will be treated no differently from the rest of the UK. And that the UK is leaving the single market and customs union.

Given that these are mutually incompatible it's difficult to see how it will be achieved. Even harder to see how it's the EU's fault!


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## Arnie83

Oh, and incidentally, @stockwellcat. ; when you say we will be 'better off outside the EU', do you mean economically?


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## Jesthar

stockwellcat. said:


> People with Irish and UK passports are entitled to travel freely between both countries under the CTA just like with being in the EU free movement. Obviously passports at Airports and Ports will get checked as we established above. *The open border if closed in Ireland will affect goods and services not people*. It will subject goods and services to checks. But correct me if I am wrong UK customs already check lorries and vehicles before they board the Euro Tunnel and ferries in Calais and in Belfast and Dublin as well before they board the ferries from their ports.


I think you will find that statement is far from correct.

A closed border in Ireland will have quite a significant impact on people, given that the greater part of both Irish economies relies on frictionless trade with the other half and many products can crisscross the border multiple times before they reach their final form. In particular, over 90% of the NI companies involved in such trading back and forth are micro-companies, with fewer than 50 employees. Crossing a hard border with customs inspections/quarantines would add significant time and cost to doing business, and I think it is safe to project that a lot of those small companies may find themselves unable to continue trading, or greatly limited. Bye bye jobs, and probably farms too. Then for every firm that closes or cuts back, there will be knock on effects for those that sold prodcuts to them or bought products off them. And whilst churn and companies ceasing trading is all part of a natural business cycle, to have so many under threat from something they can literally do nothing about risks the economic integrity of both NI and Ireland, though at least Ireland will have the EU to support it.

Of course, it's also worth considering that NI voted Remain by a significant margin. If a hard Brexit is forced on them and has even a part of the projected potential impact, then if it really hits the fan we could potentially even see the Troubles starting all over again.


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## stockwellcat.

Jesthar said:


> Of course, it's also worth considering that NI *voted Remain by a significant margin*.


Did it?








Only 789,879 ballot papers where valid when the counting took place.



















Wasn't a significant margin compared to say Scotland.

Although I do understand the arguement that Ireland is an Island and the Northern part is part of the UK. It is up to any new Northern Ireland devolved power sharing assembly if they are to hold a border poll and to request such a poll from Parliament (Westminster), not the Republic and people are annoyed that the impasse in Northern Ireland's Stormont that there has been no devolved assembly since January 2017 as it has had a financial knock on effect throughout Northern Ireland on its public services etc (hopefully this will be resolved soon).


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## Phoenix Rising

Years ago (1999/2000) I went to County Kerry from Holyhead and even though I'd been advised to take a passport (which I did) I never got stopped and asked to see it? I drove onto ferry then went up top to the bar, returned to car and drove off, it was the other port next to Dublin that I can't remember how to spell! 

I never did understand why only a small part of Ireland was part of the UK and the rest of it isn't???


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## Guest

LinznMilly said:


> @cheekyscrip , it's the opinion of us Mods that cartoons and jokes have no place on this thread. As I said above, they have added little to nothing to this thread, except offence. Their use on other threads depends entirely on the content and nature of that thread - we're not out to ban the use of cartoons and memes outright.
> 
> Other people's tweets are other people's opinions. I'm not sure they have a place at all on here.


I am afraid I don´t agree with this policy at all and I am very sorry to read this. Nothing personal LinznMilly, as I know you didn´t decide this on your own. Why do I feel this way then?

Lets get some perspective to this, as this is a matter of principle, and as such, always important.

For me the use of humour has always been a fundamental right for people to express their opinions especially about those in power. People abusing power seem to have one thing in common, no matter where they come from and what is the political system they represent, as in the end the system doesn´t matter, if it based on abuse.

Most of us defended Charlie Hebdo, even when most thought the joke about Mohammed was sleazy. But we knew that we must have the right to laugh at all political and even at religions, as the alternative means that we are not free and have yielded into tyranny. Naturally some got offended, as the cartoon was aimed at making something holy to look ridiculous. Still, freedom of speech was bigger than some feeling offensive. At the end, no one was suggesting someone should be harmed. That is the line isn´t it.

Britain has been famous for it´s great sense of humour and ability to express the ridiculous, especially in politics. For me that is genuinely something I have admired Britain for and for that alone I was happy to use the word great in front of Britain.

Brexit is all about politics, nothing personal to anyone as such. And as in any political debate, it should be possible to express also the ridicilous element in it using jokes and cartoons, as long we are not suggesting anyone should be harmed personally in any way. Some don´t like the message. Well, tough, but I don´t like to be called a scaremongerer or fearmonger either. Does that give me the right to deny them to use that word? Or many other words I do find offensive? IMO no, as if they feel that way, they have a right to say so.

For me this restriction not being able to use humour on this thread made PF suddenly a formal body supporting those abusing power, fearing that they are being laughed at. Maybe you mods just thought that your job is easier, when you deliver these restrictions and it is as simple as that. But it is not, as you just denided me my freedom of speech and took a step closer to those supporting tyranny. That to me is way much bigger than your job.

What next? I´m not sure, but I surely feel really dirty and abused now and I am not happy being a willing part of PF any more.


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## Arnie83

MrsZee said:


> I am afraid I don´t agree with this policy at all and I am very sorry to read this. Nothing personal LinznMilly, as I know you didn´t decide this on your own. Why do I feel this way then?
> 
> Lets get some perspective to this, as this is a matter of principle, and as such, always important.
> 
> For me the use of humour has always been a fundamental right for people to express their opinions especially about those in power. People abusing power seem to have one thing in common, no matter where they come from and what is the political system they represent, as in the end the system doesn´t matter, if it based on abuse.
> 
> Most of us defended Charlie Hebdo, even when most thought the joke about Mohammed was sleazy. But we knew that we must have the right to laugh at all political and even at religions, as the alternative means that we are not free and have yielded into tyranny. Naturally some got offended, as the cartoon was aimed at making something holy to look ridiculous. Still, freedom of speech was bigger than some feeling offensive. At the end, no one was suggesting someone should be harmed. That is the line isn´t it.
> 
> Britain has been famous for it´s great sense of humour and ability to express the ridiculous, especially in politics. For me that is genuinely something I have admired Britain for and for that alone I was happy to use the word great in front of Britain.
> 
> Brexit is all about politics, nothing personal to anyone as such. And as in any political debate, it should be possible to express also the ridicilous element in it using jokes and cartoons, as long we are not suggesting anyone should be harmed personally in any way. Some don´t like the message. Well, tough, but I don´t like to be called a scaremongerer or fearmonger either. Does that give me the right to deny them to use that word? Or many other words I do find offensive? IMO no, as if they feel that way, they have a right to say so.
> 
> For me this restriction not being able to use humour on this thread made PF suddenly a formal body supporting those abusing power, fearing that they are being laughed at. Maybe you mods just thought that your job is easier, when you deliver these restrictions and it is as simple as that. But it is not, as you just denided me my freedom of speech and took a step closer to those supporting tyranny. That to me is way much bigger than your job.
> 
> What next? I´m not sure, but I surely feel really dirty and abused now and I am not happy being a willing part of PF any more.


Don't go!

I agree with you that humour should never be censored, but I think a specific problem we've had with this particular thread is that all the jokes and memes and cartoons have been anti-Leave.

Given that a large part of humour is often to make the butt of the joke appear foolish, and given how tribal Brexit has become, I can imagine and understand - though perhaps not sympathise - how a number of people see any anti-leave humour as a personal attack. So maybe in this case the restriction isn't as unreasonable as it might seem.


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## StormyThai

MrsZee said:


> For me this restriction not being able to use humour on this thread made PF suddenly a formal body supporting those abusing power, fearing that they are being laughed at. Maybe you mods just thought that your job is easier, when you deliver these restrictions and it is as simple as that. But it is not, as you just denided me my freedom of speech and took a step closer to those supporting tyranny. That to me is way much bigger than your job.


No one is restricting humour in this thread...the jokes and memes were causing offence and if you refresh yourself with the terms of service and rules you will see why we have asked for people to stop posting them in this thread.

No ones free speech has been denied, that is a tad over dramatic.
Please can we get back on topic otherwise we will be forced to close.


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## Guest

StormyThai said:


> No one is restricting humour in this thread...the jokes and memes were causing offence and if you refresh yourself with the terms of service and rules you will see why we have asked for people to stop posting them in this thread.
> 
> No ones free speech has been denied, that is a tad over dramatic.
> Please can we get back on topic otherwise we will be forced to close.


Somebody else´s opinion about cartoons actually made you forbid them on this thread with a hint that they might only be accepted in other threads, if you think they are ok. I thought that was dramatic. And we are talking about cartoons that are not promoting crime, violence or hate crimes, but just making politicians looks ridiculous.

I do not like threats of any kind either, nor do I like not being able to disagree openly with decisions I find unreasonable. So if this is your response to my post " tad bit dramatic and we will be forced to close" I´d think it is pretty clear that the right to feel offended is only for some, but not for me. *"Force"* is also an interesting word to be used, as I really don´t *have to be* a member of PF and I surely don´t need to spend my time trying to find actual facts about Brexit. It was good while it lasted, but I really don´t like bullies of any kind and I do not want to support any forum where bullies are accepted. Here on this thread they seem to have won.

So I thank you all those, who try to focus on facts about Brexit, stay positive and polite and above all, seem to be genuinely good people. Britain surely needs you now more than ever before. And if someone finds that dramatic, well, for many having nothing and being forced to rely on UK´s social security is dramatic, even lethal. This is just a pet forum. Nothing more.

Special thanks for @cheekyscrip , @noushka05, @Arnie83 , @KittenKong and @Jesthar . I know you really try to make this world a better place.


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## StormyThai

I did warn you :Locktopic


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