# Head-shy adolescent dog...



## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

Hi all

Not sure if anyone's come across this before, it has me puzzled why/how it started.

Recently, he's taken to reacting when someone tries to stroke him on the head while we're out walking. He's on the lead by our side when it happens. These are people he's known since he was a pup, dog owners we see out on a regular basis, so I'm baffled why he's doing this now. He doesn't do this all the time, and not to all people either. 

My OH is putting it down to hormones, and wants to have him neutered as soon as possible, whereas I'm trying to figure out what I can do to correct this, instead of running to the vet and having him done. Plus, I think he's too young at this stage to be neutered. 

This isn't normal behaviour for him, as he's such a softie usually, but these occurrences have me baffled as I see no trigger, and I'm worried it will escalate. None of my other dogs had this, so this is a new one for me. 

We're due to visit the vet and I will bring this up with her, in case there's a medical explanation, but how do we surpass this?

Any ideas greatly welcome, as just when I think I have it down to a 't', he throws another spanner in the works...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

How old is he? I don't like to have a dog neutered until he is fully grown, personally, and I don't really see any connection between this and hormones. Does he shy away if you put your hand over his head or is it just strangers? Perhaps someone has been a bit loud or rough about it and has frightened him.

I think you should make a point of always going under his chin first, then when he is relaxed, try the over head hand. Pity is, everyone should go up to a strange dog with their hand under their chin, but people do not listen.

Can't be more constructive, I'm afraid.


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## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> How old is he? I don't like to have a dog neutered until he is fully grown, personally, and I don't really see any connection between this and hormones. Does he shy away if you put your hand over his head or is it just strangers? Perhaps someone has been a bit loud or rough about it and has frightened him.
> 
> I think you should make a point of always going under his chin first, then when he is relaxed, try the over head hand. Pity is, everyone should go up to a strange dog with their hand under their chin, but people do not listen.
> 
> Can't be more constructive, I'm afraid.


He's nearly 14 months old. He's fine with family, doesn't shy away, though sometimes will give us a wide berth and go lie down, in which case I ask everyone to leave him be. He has started to raise his nose to sniff though, and he hasn't done this before.

Whenever we meet new people, we always ask that they let him sniff first, and he's always on lead when this happens.

It's ok, I've not experienced this with any of my dogs before, so am on unchartered waters on this one...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Novak's Mum said:


> He's nearly 14 months old. He's fine with family, doesn't shy away, though sometimes will give us a wide berth and go lie down, in which case I ask everyone to leave him be. He has started to raise his nose to sniff though, and he hasn't done this before.
> 
> Whenever we meet new people, we always ask that they let him sniff first, and he's always on lead when this happens.
> 
> It's ok, I've not experienced this with any of my dogs before, so am on unchartered waters on this one...


He could just be growing up and not trusting everyone as much as he used to. As long as he is not doing it with everyone, I don't think you have a problem. Dogs sometimes take a dislike to certain people, a man who is particularly tall or loud, for instance, or a woman with a silly laugh! These are things you may not notice, but the dog does. My mongrel loved most people but ran away and hid when my brother came. It was because he has this really loud voice.

It is only sensible to let a dog sniff you before you try to greet them, and never go over its head, but people always think they know better.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

What exactly does he do? What exactly is the person doing?

Head shyness is likely to emerge in adolescence but this is a little later than usual. If there is discomfort being shown upon approach, a vet visit is first to rule out any physiological issue.

Next are some structured, remedial socialisation exercises. He is showing shyness in other situations so there may be quite a bit of work to do here.

Happy hands is an exercise that can be used to teach dogs how to tolerate and even enjoy hands reaching over and around their body. Touch 4 Treat exercises teach them to enjoy handling.


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## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

tripod said:


> What exactly does he do? What exactly is the person doing?
> 
> Head shyness is likely to emerge in adolescence but this is a little later than usual. If there is discomfort being shown upon approach, a vet visit is first to rule out any physiological issue.
> 
> ...


Hi, we'll be walking along, nothing unusual will happen. Most times, he'll walk past people with no problem, but others (like today) he'll either try to jump up (which we don't allow him to ever), or he'll push your hand up with his nose and try to engage. He's never bitten anyone, but he's still very mouthy, which we discourage always.

We increased his walks, but with going dark so soon, he is sometimes tense when we go out, in which case we get him on a sit if anyone stops to chat to us. When he's good, he gets a treat.

I thought it could be shyness, so I've been looking at some classes for him to interact with other people, as most people we meet are intimidated by his size. Most dogs he used to play with are also wary of him now and growl or bark when we approach, which in turn gets him riled up...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

What breed is he? I have that trouble with mine, when dogs who used to be familiar with them now run. It is really sad as they don't understand why.


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## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> What breed is he? I have that trouble with mine, when dogs who used to be familiar with them now run. It is really sad as they don't understand why.


He's a Leonberger. Of the dogs he used to play with, only one will still engage, Enya the Rotweiller. It was her owner's daughter he snapped at earlier today. 

It breaks my heart as I know how loving and playful he can be, but unfortunately some creatures don't see past his size, albeit canine or human. 

I'll be enrolling him in more socialisation classes, and work with a trainer to curb this behaviour. I don't want to end up with a dog fearful or aggressive.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Novak's Mum said:


> He's a Leonberger. Of the dogs he used to play with, only one will still engage, Enya the Rotweiller. It was her owner's daughter he snapped at earlier today.
> 
> It breaks my heart as I know how loving and playful he can be, but unfortunately some creatures don't see past his size, albeit canine or human.
> 
> I'll be enrolling him in more socialisation classes, and work with a trainer to curb this behaviour. *I don't want to end up with a dog fearful or aggressive. *




No, especially one that size! One of the reasons I bought Joshua was so that Ferdie would have someone his own size to play with. It is so sad when the other dogs run away from them and all they want to do is say hello. Their faces light up when they see another dog their own size.

There is an Irish wolfhound who they still play with, but I don't see him often as she tends to walk him later in the afternoon. You need another one, that is what you need:lol:


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Novak's Mum said:


> Hi, we'll be walking along, nothing unusual will happen. Most times, he'll walk past people with no problem, but others (like today) he'll either try to jump up (which we don't allow him to ever), or he'll push your hand up with his nose and try to engage. He's never bitten anyone, but he's still very mouthy, which we discourage always.


I thought he was head shy?

Mouthiness is an issue with adolescent dogs plus I have had a run of Leonbergers with this at an escalated level over the last six months - don't know if this is down to the breed just becoming more popular or this is an issue within a certain line or a breed predisposition.

Could you maybe go back to the beginning and list his issues as I am confused as to what you need help with :confused1:


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## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

tripod said:


> I thought he was head shy?
> 
> Mouthiness is an issue with adolescent dogs plus I have had a run of Leonbergers with this at an escalated level over the last six months - don't know if this is down to the breed just becoming more popular or this is an issue within a certain line or a breed predisposition.
> 
> Could you maybe go back to the beginning and list his issues as I am confused as to what you need help with :confused1:


Hi, sorry, I didn't mean to confuse things,,,... 

The issues we have with him at the moment are 1) head shyness mainly and 2)mouthing.

Head shyness is the more serious, as it's getting to the point that I almost don't trust him with other people.


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## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> [/B]
> 
> No, especially one that size! One of the reasons I bought Joshua was so that Ferdie would have someone his own size to play with. It is so sad when the other dogs run away from them and all they want to do is say hello. Their faces light up when they see another dog their own size.
> 
> There is an Irish wolfhound who they still play with, but I don't see him often as she tends to walk him later in the afternoon. You need another one, that is what you need:lol:


I would love another Leo more than anything and the Oh keeps saying so, but I don't want to add another dog to the household until I fully understand what goes on with Novak. One day maybe...


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

OK thanks.

First thing to understand is early discomfort signaling. Watch closely for head turns, stiffening, whisker erection, pupil dilation, lip licks, yawns, ducking hen people approach or are close by. These are distance increasing signals in social contexts asking politley for more space and time. These escalate however to bolting, growling, snarling, vocalising etc.
Never tell dog off for and of these valuable signals - respect them. Give the dog distance.

Two exercises for head shyness: happy hands and touch 4 treat.

Start with only immediate family playing, then familiar people, then less familiar and so on.

Happy hands:

- get ready with a bag of high value yummies e.g. hotdog, chicken, ham, cheese cut into teeny tiny bits.
-establish how close you can have your hands to his head, without touching it without dog showing any signs of discomfort
- work further away
- sit near the dog while he is relaxed, lyinh down, start by just raising your hands within your own body space - do so slowly to start
- as soon as you raise a hand toss a treat with the other (toss the treat away from you so dog gets to retreat)
-if you are at all concerned about teh dog's behaviour, work with him on one side of a baby gate and you on the other
- soon the dog will watch your raised hand and anticipate his tossed treat - move on to the next most difficult e.g. hands raised closer to his body space
- wait for that anticipation, before moving onto the next difficulty level
- work over days and many short sessions until you can place your hand on dog's head from directly above without a flinch or any sign of discomfort- before having less familiar people start at the very beginning

Touch 4 Treat:

Start working in an area as far as possible from the one the dog is bothered by having handled. So if dog is bothered by having his head handled, start at the tip of his tail 

As is says on the tin, touch the far away area with one hand and then immediately put a yummy into dog's mouth.
Repeat until you see that anticipation. Then move a couple inches closer and start again.

More on mouthing here: Nipping and mouthing and biting oh my! | Pet Central&#039;s Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

The two issues are no doubt related so a look at your overall socialisation work will be necessary too and a brush up there. Best of luck


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Ask people to ignore him until he is comfortable for people to approach him.

The dog will let you and others know when he wants to be petted and when he doesn't. Just read his body language.

What you don't want to do is push him. Give him space and I'm sure he will come round.

I would never let anyone touch my dogs unless my dogs WANTED them to x


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## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Ask people to ignore him until he is comfortable for people to approach him.
> 
> The dog will let you and others know when he wants to be petted and when he doesn't. Just read his body language.
> 
> ...


Hi,

We were doing that before whenever anyone entered our home, to let him come to the human(s)when he's comfortable to the new presence. We also use treats if a new person visits, so that he sees these as good presences.

As a rule, we tell everyone in the home not to follow him or go to him, and let him come to us for human contact as/when he chooses to. I nesrly beat the family into submission, figuratively speaking...  x


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Novak's Mum said:


> Hi,
> 
> We were doing that before whenever anyone entered our home, to let him come to the human(s)when he's comfortable to the new presence. We also use treats if a new person visits, so that he sees these as good presences.
> 
> As a rule, we tell everyone in the home not to follow him or go to him, and let him come to us for human contact as/when he chooses to. I nesrly beat the family into submission, figuratively speaking...  x


So I'm guessing for you to have implemented this in your house, you have done so because he has a problem.

He may always be the type of dog who doesn't want to be approached by people.

Nothing wrong with that.... x


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## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

tripod said:


> OK thanks.
> 
> First thing to understand is early discomfort signaling. Watch closely for head turns, stiffening, whisker erection, pupil dilation, lip licks, yawns, ducking hen people approach or are close by. These are distance increasing signals in social contexts asking politley for more space and time. These escalate however to bolting, growling, snarling, vocalising etc.
> Never tell dog off for and of these valuable signals - respect them. Give the dog distance.
> ...


thank you for the advice, we will be putting this into practice straight away, Novak's a clever boy, and where there's food involved, he will do anything. Thank you so much.


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## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> So I'm guessing for you to have implemented this in your house, you have done so because he has a problem.
> 
> He may always be the type of dog who doesn't want to be approached by people.
> 
> Nothing wrong with that.... x


We implemented this as I noticed his demeanour was changing when new people came to visit. I was aware the breed has a strong guarding instinct, and I recalled from the doggie lessons he went to, the trainer suggesting to use the method whenever someone came to visit, so we applied it.

He loves humans, specially children. But when it comes to adults, he's very much being selective with his likes and dislikes and though I know not all dogs like to be approached, we don't want him to be too anxious or nervous when we meet new people or they come to visit. x


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2011)

Sounds to me more hand shy then head shy! Some dogs do not like being aproached from behind and touched on the back!

Some don't like be touched on the head from above, I always approach (once I have checked with the owner of course) any strange dog by offering my hand for it to stiff prior to attempting to touch the dog!

Am I am the wrongs lines here? Only I am perhaps a little old fashioned compared to some!


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## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Sounds to me more hand shy then head shy! Some dogs do not like being aproached from behind and touched on the back!
> 
> Some don't like be touched on the head from above, I always approach (once I have checked with the owner of course) any strange dog by offering my hand for it to stiff prior to attempting to touch the dog!
> 
> Am I am the wrongs lines here? Only I am perhaps a little old fashioned compared to some!


Hi, not old fashioned, that's the approach we take with new dogs and new people. However, yesterday he reared up to someone he's known since he was a pup, who he sees every day when we're out on our walks. We had no reason or sign that he was going to do this, which is why I feel somewhat devastated atm. When one thing falls into place, another rears up.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I agree that people should absolutely be more sensible, respectful and polite around our dogs.

BUT, unfortunately we can't rely on that. Our dogs have to be uber uber reliable with people - our society will not tolerate anything less from our dogs. And as usual our dogs suffer when society says enough is enough.

I don't necessarily agree with all of it, its not fair but its the way it is  As Teresa Lewin of DogGone Safe says you can't prepare the world for the dog so we have to prepare the dog for the world.

That means that we are obliged to make sure our dogs can cope with stoopid and insensitive people. Management to a certain degree is also necessary but it will at some time fail so we have to teach our dogs alternative coping mechanisms.


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## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

tripod said:


> I agree that people should absolutely be more sensible, respectful and polite around our dogs.
> 
> BUT, unfortunately we can't rely on that. Our dogs have to be uber uber reliable with people - our society will not tolerate anything less from our dogs. And as usual our dogs suffer when society says enough is enough.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. I would much rather spend as much time as I can in equiping Novak with the skills he needs to be comfortable and cope well. I don't ever want to be in a position where some very tough decisions have to be made. He's my responsibility, as such it's down to all our family to do the best by him, and hope he takes the skills on.

thank you everyone for the advice, much appreciated.  Just picked up some books on dog behaviour, psychology and training. The whole family are going to be veeeery busy.


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

It all sounds like fairly standard Leonberger puppy behaviour to me! Bear went through a stage when everything he had learned was "forgotten" and he became mouthy and vocal and a little aggressive and from memory this was around 14 to 18 months old.

Keep doing the training and relax, it'll pass and he'll calm down eventually. Leos grow up physically extremely quickly but can take 4 years to actually "grow up"!


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## Novak's Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

Magnus said:


> It all sounds like fairly standard Leonberger puppy behaviour to me! Bear went through a stage when everything he had learned was "forgotten" and he became mouthy and vocal and a little aggressive and from memory this was around 14 to 18 months old.
> 
> Keep doing the training and relax, it'll pass and he'll calm down eventually. Leos grow up physically extremely quickly but can take 4 years to actually "grow up"!


Hurrah, I don't feel so alone now! 

I was prepared for the vocality (if that's even a word), good job really as Novak enjoys exercising his chords at 5 in the morning. What really threw me was the sudden dislike for people he's known since a pup. All I can do is keep at things and ride it out. I never thought it would be easy. 

Thanks Magnus.


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