# Need advice/help with my dog that is VERY dog reactive



## AmberLinn (Sep 4, 2013)

Hi, I have a 3 year old German Shepard/Golden mix and she is extremely dog reactive especially when they walk by "her" fence. I got told by one trainer to try to get her attention and redirect her using treats. But frankly I feel like I'm rewarding the behavior and really she could care less about the treat anyway! I've been trying to just correct her saying no and such but really she doesn't care about that either she is completely focused on the other dog and doesn't care what or who is in her way!

Does anyone have any good advice? I'm to my breaking point here  I've even considered getting a shock collar and I really don't want to do that because I think it will create a bigger problem. I've tried leave it and that doesn't work either (she is COMPLETELY focused on the other dog(s)) I need some more advice or ideas. I'm open to anything. I'm going to keep on using the correction but I can't go outside with her every single time she goes out just to chase her and try correcting her. Please PLEASE help me


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## Strawberryearth (Apr 5, 2012)

The advice your trainer gave you is good advice, but unfortunately things are not so simple or a quick fix.

In order to get your dogs attention you need to make yourself more interesting and more rewarding than whatever she is barking at. Not an easy task if she is already barking at something.

The "look at me" type training requires a decent bond between you and your dog already, so if not already, I would work on her basic obedience. Getting her to sit, down, stay etc while inside the house then SLOWLY add distractions. If you move too quickly then she will not learn anything, going from in the living room to into the kitchen (different smells etc) is a distraction in itself. Having someone walk past in the house, or her favourite toy lying next to her, once you have mastered them in varying levels of distraction try moving outside. 

The same goes for getting her attention. The "watch me" or "look at me" command should begin in a very low distraction environment and once you have that mastered start to introduce small distractions. This needs to be completed before you move into a higher distraction environment.

I appreciate this takes time and you need something in the meantime- a bridging gap. In which case I would suggest no garden access unsupervised and walks where you are less likely to bump into other people. Be that later in the evening, early mornings or just far out of the way. 

In terms of dealing with the reactivity you need to start off below threshold. A massive sign of fear is a dog not wanting food. So if your dog is refusing or ignoring treats either the treats aren't good enough (kibble won't work) or your dog is far too stressed. 

BAT- Behaviour Adjustment Training is a great method of training reactive dogs. But also good are the basic classical and operant conditioning training. Associating the "bad" thing with something good and redirecting the negative behaviour with an alternative one.

So fido is barking at a cat in the back garden, call him in (away from the trigger) and reward for coming (a bit of recall training never hurts) and then ask him to lie down (an alternative behaviour). Bingo- no more barking at the cat. Yes you have to do this every time but training is ongoing and the reactivity will be worked on simultaneously- right?

Shock collars are illegal in the UK, and rightly so. They are barbaric and their use is 100% punishable by law. Your dog is reacting to something, most reactive dogs do so out of fear. Imagine you are terrified of spiders. Someone puts a spider in front of you and then feeds you lots of sweets- does that make you feel any better about the presence of the spider? Now imagine that you are terrified of spiders and someone puts one in front of you but whenever you show the slightest sign of fear (even signs you are not in control of- like dilated pupils) they electrocute you. How does that make you feel about the spider...and the person doing this to you?

If you want to destroy the bond you have with your dog, make it more fearful and less trusting of you- punishment is absolutely the way forwards. But then, why would you have a dog in the first place? 

There are some great online resources, Kiko-pups videos on youtube are fab, likewise Dr Sophia Yin's website and books are brilliant. BAT website is a great resource too. But if the problem is so bad you are considering barbaric measures, perhaps a behaviourist (vet referral required) who will work with you (rather than a trainer who, by the sounds of things, has just given you some advice but no practical help).


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

In what way is she reactive ? Barking, jumping up ,growling ? 
Is she left in the garden on her own? 
My dog barks at people and dogs that walk past our garden, usually a burst of barking that stops when they're out of ear shot. If it gets too much she comes in.
Could you just take her out on lead for toilet breaks for a while ? Maybe let her wander round for a bit, but as soon as she starts reacting to passing dogs bring her in. 
Has this behaviour started recently ? 
Is there anywhere in the garden where she would be out of sight/ earshot you could leave her ? Is your garden totally secure ?If not, as I say, I would keep her inside with you and only outside on lead with you for toilet breaks. And try teaching her a cue to stop barking maybe. BUT NOT a shock collar - they teach nothing !!!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I understand your desperation but PLEASE don't get a shock collar - it will only amp your dog up more and you'll be left with more problems than you already have.

Is your girl reactive when out walking or is it just when she's in the garden?

My Lab has always been very reactive when on lead, walking used to be hellish; I found that a solid 'watch me' and then a treat really does help.

If your girl is only reactive when in the garden then can you get her inside more often?


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## AmberLinn (Sep 4, 2013)

This has been a problem for over a year now. Back in the states I started trying to redirect her. After the dog goes by she will listen to me and come inside and do whatever I asked her to. I do agree with the shock collar law I would never buy one..though I have gotten so fed up with everything that I've wanted to I never did. I'll work more on the basics with her then. I take her out on a lead right now and supervise everything she does but she's a big dog and sometimes I feel like I'm man handling her and it's stressful for BOTH of us. 

For the "watch me" command I'm slightly confused. I trained with a trainer back home but I just don't get how to do it properly. I can never tell if she's looking at me or the treat I'm holding so I never know if I'm saying the cue at the right time. 

I do believe she is barking at the other dogs walking by as a defense to warn them off. I'll start back at the basics though and work with her on sit/stay and hopefully figure out how to properly execute the "watch me" Thank you!


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## AmberLinn (Sep 4, 2013)

Sorry I forgot to add. She usually will jump up and down on the fence, growls a little and barks A LOT. She also will start tensing up and focusing on the dog so I try to break her stare by getting her to do something else or by running away and acting exciting but in the garden that doesn't work. Back home she would bite at the fence and pull it!! She scared a lot of people back home that's why I'm trying to hard to work with her here while I have the time to do so. 

On walks she will notice a dog and bark and growl at it even if it's 2 blocks away from us. But then I usually get her attention by saying "lets go" in a cheerful exciting way and quickly start in the other direction and after a bit she will calm down.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2013)

My dog use to be the same, well to some extent he still is regarding being in his garden and barking if anyone comes near (except people he knows well) however it's generally one or two barks and then he stops. Most of the time he wants to sniff the dog through the fence and wags his tail lol.

I am guessing your dog is dog reactive on walks too? I had the same problem, couldn't even go near another dog without mine going crazy. In the end we had to get a behaviourist in who helped us, we purchased a head collar and two way lead and now use a solid "leave it" whenever we see another dog, it seems to work most of the time. He's generally okay with dogs now, wants to play mostly.

Maybe it's time for a dog behaviourist if you feel you can't cope anymore? I can tell you I was at my wits end with mine when he displayed that behaviour, I was too scared to walk him half the time, he was unresponsive to me. It gets better though.  It will take time.


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## Littlelab (Jul 21, 2008)

Can I just add that barking is a dogs way of communicating, in this instance, it's 'Oi there could be an intruder'

You say she is a Shepherd Mix, think about what GSD's were bred for..guarding.. she is doing what part of her was bred to do and that is to alert you to a possible intrusion into her space.

It's the same as Collie's and their herding instinct, Labs and retrieving, often your best shoes:ihih:

Trudi Rudgaas has written a brilliant book on Barking, well worth a read, it helped us tremendously.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

AmberLinn said:


> *emphasis added in bold - *
> 
> [my] 3-YO German Shepherd x Golden... is extremely dog-reactive, especially when [dogs] walk by "her" fence.
> 
> ...


GSDs & their mixes are often vocal and territorial - no real surprises, there. 

As she's utterly OTT by the time U are trying to get her attn, she cannot learn a new behavior; she's overwhelmed 
by her intense emotions. U have to begin teaching her attn when there are no dogs present, in a controlled setting,
THEN move it to somewhere that other dogs are visible, but far-enuf away that she's not reacting; odds are high 
that this doesn't include Ur garden / yard, as very few are large-enuf, plus she has a longstanding response - a habit -
specific to that place & those circs / the stimulus, AND that's her turf - U need somewhere she won't feel possessive, 
with fairly-long lines of sight, so U can see dogs a good way off, not suddenly "too close" - & the *dog*
defines what is "too close".


AmberLinn said:


> I'm to my breaking point here  I've... considered... a shock collar & ...I think it will create a bigger problem.


a shock-collar couldn't possibly help in this instance - since she needs to feel SAFER around other dogs, 
not threatened, applying pain when other dogs are present won't do a dam* thing to address her defensive 
emotional response, altho it might teach her NOT to indicate when she feels threatened - meaning she would 
continue to fear other dogs, & quite possibly come to hate them with a passion, as the appearance of any dog 
means she will be startled & feel pain - but she wouldn't "show" her anxiety & anger; she'd wait without barking, 
& then if another dog got close enuf, quite possibly she'd rip into the dog, rather than tell her / him to 
"bug off, & leave my space alone". 


AmberLinn said:


> I've tried _leave it_ & that doesn't work, either; she's COMPLETELY focused on the other dog(s).
> ... I'm open to anything. *I [will] keep... using the correction, but I can't go outside with her every single
> time she goes out, just to chase her & try correcting her. *


If U aren't willing to go out with her [while she wears a long DRAG, not a 6-ft leash], then U aren't willing to do 
"anything", are U?
It's not hard; the 30-ft drag lets U easily tread on the trailing end, then pick it up, call her ONCE, wait 5-secs, 
& then begin hauling her in briskly. Pop her immediately indoors, in a place where she cannot overlook the garden 
& continue trying to chase off the invaders. Give her 5-mins after the other dogs are no longer visible to calm, 
go back out, & let her void / sniff. Then return indoors, again where she cannot oversee or overhear the garden.
[collar tag jingle is a very common prompt for massive reactivity.  ]

Using the 'correction' - whatever it is - isn't working; she's too flooded to respond, & it's only harassment.
She'll learn to ignore U altogether, since she's *incapable of complying* & U keep trying ineffectively to 'make her'
comply when she's basically temporarily nutz. :crazy: If something doesn't work, continuing to do it & expecting 
to get different results is the definition of insanity; please don't take that personally, but them's the facts. 

She has to use the garden only to toilet; surely she can go elsewhere to be walked, with long sight lines?

It's a temporary thing - not forever; but U have to give her sufficient distance to be aware, yet NOT reactive.
How far that may be varies from dog to dog; U need to look at her [*without* being tempted to 'correct' AKA suppress 
her reactions] & see clearly the earliest indicators that she's becoming aroused - ears pop up / forward, 
her hackles or tail rise, a hard gaze, her body stiffens / up on toes, she leans toward the approaching dog, etc.

To learn more about dog body-language, see the sticky - 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/88630-dog-body-language-why-matters-so-much.html

I'd suggest U reset Ur posts-per-page to 40 [the max] before going there, as there are links to videos, articles, 
websites, etc, & there are 5 pages of 40 posts per page - total 169 posts - in the thread. U don't need to read 
every one, but scrolling thru 5 pages will cut down the adverts & make it simpler to find those posts 
that particularly apply to Ur problem. :yesnod:

I'd also buy or borrow the book _'Click to Calm'_ - it's available new or used online,
or U can save the $$ & borrow a copy at the local library, if need be via interlibrary loan. It's a terrific DIY 
manual, with clear step-by-step protocols that are safe, humane, & effective. :thumbsup: 
.
.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sorry but yes, you will have to go outside with her every time - for now.

My dog used to do the same as yours when out on walks: the mere sight of a dog, way off in the distance, would send him into a FRENZY.

WATCH ME:

Hold the treat up in front of your nose(not too close, in case dog jumps up).

At some point the dog WILL glance at you/the treat. The second she does - huge fuss, praise, treat.

You have to practise first when there are NO distractions. Gradually increase the time the dog must look at you *before* getting the treat.

Then practise with a few distractions - low level ones.

Practise in the garden BUT NOT when other dogs are passing by.

Ultimately you can start practising when dogs are in the distance on walks BUT only when they are a long way off.

The more you do it, the more automatic a response it will become. Eventually you can do it when dogs are nearby and in the garden when dogs walk past.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> WATCH ME:
> 
> Hold the treat up *in front of your nose* (not too close, in case the dog jumps-up).
> 
> At some point the dog WILL glance at you / the treat. The second she does - *huge fuss, praise*, [then] treat.


just some very-minor alterations i'd suggest -

placement: 
hold the treat BESIDE one's eye, with the dominant hand [right if U're a righty, left for lefties].

that makes the eventual cue easy to transition: Fingertip upraised, by one's eye, plus verbal label, _'watch...'_.
Fade the treat [stop holding one visibly] as soon as she can LOOK when she sees the hand-signal, 'finger by eye',
& continue to reward, but from a pocket, a bowl on a nearby table, behind one's back, etc - treat is out of sight 
& out of hand, until it's time to deliver it.

order:
Mark the instant of behavior with a brisk, crisp "yes", AND *give the treat simultaneously. *

Once the "Yes" becomes a familiar marker, there can be a short delay between marking & delivery 
of a treat, toy-play, opening the door for her to exit once she sits, etc, etc; this lets us park any treats off 
our persons, so that dogs don't conclude that compliance *won't pay off* unless they can see or smell a treat, 
a toy, etc. 

Pairing the verbal marker ["Yes"] WITH the treat delivery helps her grasp the idea that "yes" = The Goal,
the instant of desired behavior... so the penny drops, & comprehension dawns. :yesnod:

Warm, sincere praise can follow - don't make it arousing & wild, but low-pitched & affectionate.
IOW, not jumping up & down, no squeals, no scrubby 'petting' or grabby moves - sustained contact, 
firm pressure, warm low-pitched tones.

Since she tends to be aroused / defensive, we want to support her in keeping her cool, while still praising, 
labeling behavior, & rewarding her.
.
.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2013)

AmberLinn said:


> Hi, I have a 3 year old German Shepard/Golden mix and she is extremely dog reactive especially when they walk by "her" fence. I got told by one trainer to try to get her attention and redirect her using treats. But frankly I feel like I'm rewarding the behavior and really she could care less about the treat anyway! I've been trying to just correct her saying no and such but really she doesn't care about that either she is completely focused on the other dog and doesn't care what or who is in her way!


This is what is called TAR, too aroused to respond. Or like L4L said, she is entirely overwhelmed by her emotions and simply can not respond let alone learn anything new.
In this case, the treats are not teaching her anything, no worry that you're rewarding the barking or anything like that.

What the treats do is two-fold. One, they let you know where she is emotionally. If she's not taking treats or even sniffing them, she's way over threshold and you need to create distance from the trigger. 
Two, feeding her treats will create a new association with her triggers. It's classical conditioning - like Pavlov's dogs. The trigger - dogs at "her" fence, becomes a predictor of yummy treats (just like the bell predicted food with Pavlov's dogs). You will literally change her emotional response to the trigger. 
The key though is that the good stuff has to be more good than the bad stuff is bad. So, in your case, the treats have to be super awesome, and the trigger has to be at a distance where she can not only notice the treats, but take and eat them. 
This counter conditioning as it's called actually doesn't take very long if you can get your ratio of pleasant and un-pleasant right. So while you may find yourself having to go out there with her every time initially, it won't be a forever thing.

Correcting her with a shock-collar or otherwise really won't do you a whole lot of good. For a correction to "work", it has to happen every single time the behavior does, it has to perfectly match the intensity of the behavior, and it has to be unexpected to the dog. I'd bet good money she already knows exactly when you're going to correct her and how, and like you said, she doesn't give a flip does she?



AmberLinn said:


> Sorry I forgot to add. She usually will jump up and down on the fence, growls a little and barks A LOT. She also will start tensing up and focusing on the dog so I try to break her stare by getting her to do something else or by running away and acting exciting but in the garden that doesn't work. Back home she would bite at the fence and pull it!! She scared a lot of people back home that's why I'm trying to hard to work with her here while I have the time to do so.
> 
> On walks she will notice a dog and bark and growl at it even if it's 2 blocks away from us. But then I usually get her attention by saying "lets go" in a cheerful exciting way and quickly start in the other direction and after a bit she will calm down.


Sounds like a pretty typical GSD to me  They're a guardian breed, and when you don't chanel and direct that drive, that's exactly what you get.


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## AmberLinn (Sep 4, 2013)

Thank you! Yes right now I am going out with her every time to watch and keep a look at. Today was a lot better then yesterday. I've been taking her for 2 walks a day and during them I have her sit and wait when other people or bikes go by. When a dog approaches I get a safe distance and then have her do sit or lay down to keep her attention when I see her starting to tense up though I know I need to do something else so I start walking away with her saying "lets go!" and she seems to do ok with that.

I need to invest in a long line also so I can start working with her at distances I believe that will help a ton. I'm ok with putting the time and energy into this now I'm just saying like 6 months down the line or when I have a kid (someday) I'll be distracted more but I believe if I take all this information you've given me and be VERY consistent I think she will be doing MUCH better.

I know that dogs communicate barking and that it's a "HEY YOU! GO AWAY!" and I'm ok with that I just don't want it to be so out of control a couple barks I'm ok with but the barking, growling, and jumping all together scares some people.

I've had some training in the basic's of training but the lady who worked with me was working with a class and didn't have time to really train me and teach me more then the basics (sit/stay/leave it/jumping up) so this stubborn behavior/breed behavior is totally new to me! I know the Shepard in her is def. part of why she reacts this way and I understand that.

I really would never buy a shock collar (I don't know why I put that in there) it's def. not the type of person I am I actually hate them I really was just frustrated when I wrote the question and it came out that way. I know that she would end up connecting the shock (pain) with the dog and that could def. make this into a REALLY big problem because she could snap someday and really hurt someone or another dog. I don't want her scared.

Thank you everyone though for helping me! I'm glad I'm not alone I just always feel that when people walk by they think I'm a horrible person because my dog freaks out on them


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

AmberLinn said:


> ...I am going out with her every time to watch and keep a look [out]. Today was a lot better then yesterday.
> 
> I've been taking her for 2 walks a day & during them *I have her sit & wait when other people or bikes go by*.
> When a dog approaches I [go to] a safe distance & then *have her sit or... down to keep her attention* -
> ...


Another suggestion - i would *not* ask her to "hold still" while other dogs approach from any direction, 
nor for bicyclists, joggers, or any other moving stimuli. I'd *keep her moving - it makes her less stressed* 
& she can cope better, comply more easily with any cue, & won't be 'charging up' like a flywheel generator 
while she holds still.  :thumbsup:


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## AmberLinn (Sep 4, 2013)

Ok that makes sense!! So if I'm in the garden (I've been keeping her on a leash) should I just go directly inside when I see her tense up or when I was a dog coming? Or should I just keep her moving around outside while they pass by the fence?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

AmberLinn said:


> ...So if I'm in the garden -- [she's] on a leash -- should I just go directly inside when I see her tense up,
> or when I [see] a dog coming? Or... just keep her moving around outside, while they pass by...?


How much distance do U have?

If it's less than 50 to 60-ft minimum from the house to the fence, odds are good that she can't get far-enuf 
from the fence to prevent her reacting; she has a situational response that's specific to that setting, & would need 
LOTS of extra distance to remain calm, aware, & not distracted / aroused / on tenterhooks.

It's way-easier to have a dog learn new associations ["i see a dog? I get nice things!..."] in a NEW setting, 
before attempting them in the place where they've been stuck in a behavioral rut.  Break the habit, 
somewhere else - then begin to re-introduce the dog to the "familiar" problem-places.

So... if she were my dog, i'd head directly for the door as soon as i saw or heard any dog, or she alerted me 
to a distant dog that i can't see / hear, yet. Safe beats sorry, every time.  The more times she does ANYthing, 
the more likely she is to do it faster, better, & on less provocation. :bored: Bummer, eh?
.
.


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## AmberLinn (Sep 4, 2013)

OK I'll continue working with her on walks then and outside when I see a dog coming or I see her or one of my other dogs tense up I'll get her attention to come inside till the dog passes by. I've done that a few times already and it's much easier then chasing after her while she's going berserk!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

AmberLinn said:


> ... outside, when I see a dog coming or I see her or one of my other dogs tense up,
> *I'll get her attn to come inside till the dog passes by*.
> 
> I've done that a few times already, & it's much easier then chasing after her while she's going berserk!


Just to add, odds on, *she won't be able to respond to a cue, or Ur calling her - *
so don't expect her to comply; as soon as she hears / sees a dog whilst in the garden, her mind will freeze,
she will only take that in - nothing else.

I'd put my faith in a long-line as a drag, but until U get one, wearing the leash as a drag, 
or better yet, U hold the 6-ft leash, is the best security. U can swiftly get her turned about & moving, 
without danger of her becoming utterly entranced by the approaching dog & then going off like a bomb.

the faster she is removed from the stimulus, the less time she has to "charge her batteries" of arousal,
which digs the habit deeper every time.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Strawberryearth said:


> Shock collars are illegal in the UK, and rightly so. They are barbaric and their use is 100% punishable by law.


Only in Wales, not the rest of the UK.


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

You need counselling NOT your dog, and I'm going to give it to you for free in one paragraph!! It's time for you to grieve for the life you had before your reactive dog came along and ADAPT ADAPT ADAPT (or euthanase the dog). This is worst case scenario - my case. I am an expert in my experience and I am telling you now: Get a grip and adjust!!! No more holidays because there isn't a kennel in the country who will take him. Implement avoidance (empty fields at 6am and 11pm at night in summer), roadwalks, but strict handling and hyper-vigilance and develop a thick skin as quick as you can (it becomes second nature) and strict management. Stop worrying about how other people judge your dogs behaviour or you are f%$£*$!!!! Enjoy the fact that he is adorable in the house, love him, bond, watch your visitors stop calling unless you remove him to another room first, and buy some earplugs because you will NEVER stop him barking in the car (if he does). Once they see a dog (if he is as reactive as mine) there isn't a recall technique in the world to break the freeze focus in his mind. They 'go over' in a split second. I love my dog to bits. He's had psychologists at 110 quid an hour. I have learned all the techniques and implemented them consistently. It's all ****** IF your dog is VERY reactive as mine is. Strict management and you adapting is all there is. You must adapt as there is no forum, no book, no dog psychologist or rescue centre in the world who can help you. Get over what's come into your life as quick as you can and enjoy your new life with him.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

fulwood said:


> *You need counseling, NOT your dog*, and I'm going to give it to you for free in one paragraph!
> It's time for you to *grieve for the life you had before your reactive dog came along, & ADAPT
> ADAPT ADAPT - or euthanise the dog*.
> 
> ...


Excuse me, but having SEEN clients or even complete strangers who were utter novices, *succeed*
in changing very-intransigent, long-term, severe problem behaviors, i cry, _"Cow patties!"_ 

BTW, the only "*dog psychologist*" i've heard of using that specific label, is a jumped-up TV-presenter 
who has the equivalent of a 9th-grade education, is NO sort of 'psychologist' whatever, has no doctorate, 
knows nothing of learning-theory, & uses tools and tactics so outdated, my MENTOR in 1965 would be 
shocked speechless to see how he handles dogs on camera, AFTER the editing process - which also BTW, 
he has full control over. If he gets bitten, HE is the one who decides what footage is selected & is 
later broadcast - no one else makes those choices.

To return to B-mod & "dogs with issues":

I've seen dogs with bite-histories become relaxed & trustworthy, i've seen barking idiots become calm, 
& i've seen ppl DO THIS WITH MINIMAL HELP, & with MINIMAL CASH - just a good DIY manual, & some 
minor tips, plus possibly tools: OTC calmatives, maybe a Calming-Cap if the problem has a visual trigger, 
possibly a front-clip harness to be able to get the dog out of an over-threshold situation quickly, 
& so on.

I would never tell anyone, _"this dog is impossible to change, & U may as well accept it" - _
UNLESS i had *seen the dog*, done a full eval, the vet had already done a workup including a 5-way thyroid,
& i was prepared to tell the owner that if this dog were mine, i would euthanize her / him.

THAT is the one & only time that i think the situation is hopeless. It may take months, or even years, 
but as the *improvements* are gradual & incremental, the owners are often encouraged by a log - 
they look back at what was previously impossible, or what is now easily achieved, & are thrilled by 
what they & their dogs have managed to do. :yesnod: Even novices who've never owned a dog, or lived 
with a dog in their lives, can achieve truly amazing things.

Please, AmberLinn - don't give up. The number of dogs who "cannot be changed" is vanishingly small.
Urs has already improved, in just a few days. Don't quit now! :thumbup:
.
.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

fulwood said:


> You need counselling NOT your dog, and I'm going to give it to you for free in one paragraph!! It's time for you to grieve for the life you had before your reactive dog came along and ADAPT ADAPT ADAPT (or euthanase the dog). This is worst case scenario - my case. I am an expert in my experience and I am telling you now: Get a grip and adjust!!! No more holidays because there isn't a kennel in the country who will take him. Implement avoidance (empty fields at 6am and 11pm at night in summer), roadwalks, but strict handling and hyper-vigilance and develop a thick skin as quick as you can (it becomes second nature) and strict management. Stop worrying about how other people judge your dogs behaviour or you are f%$£*$!!!! Enjoy the fact that he is adorable in the house, love him, bond, watch your visitors stop calling unless you remove him to another room first, and buy some earplugs because you will NEVER stop him barking in the car (if he does). Once they see a dog (if he is as reactive as mine) there isn't a recall technique in the world to break the freeze focus in his mind. They 'go over' in a split second. I love my dog to bits. He's had psychologists at 110 quid an hour. I have learned all the techniques and implemented them consistently. It's all ****** IF your dog is VERY reactive as mine is. Strict management and you adapting is all there is. You must adapt as there is no forum, no book, no dog psychologist or rescue centre in the world who can help you. Get over what's come into your life as quick as you can and enjoy your new life with him.


What a load of utter drivel.

When I rehomed my Lab he was so reactive that we literally couldn't get halfway down our own street without him going beserk about four times.

He freaked out at anything new or 'odd' and was so over threshold that people would hurry across the street to avoid us. And my dog had no recall either - but he has a far better one now. No, it's not perfect, but he can be off lead in quite a lot of places.

There was a lot of help available online and also someone kindly put me in touch with a decent trainer.

Reactive dogs CAN be helped.

It is insulting and frankly downright insane for you to be suggesting that the OP even consider euthanising this dog - get a grip.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2013)

Some very good advice given I have the same problem with my dog reacts to sound sounds on the other side of the fence especially if they really concern her or she thinks I should be conerned as well. 

She still barks but I can now get her attention. You feel at your wits end I completely understand but its precisely your insecurity which drives your dog to be protective. GSD's are guard dogs after all and some are more guardy then others.

My dog now knows as soon as I tell her kitchen she will stop and head straight in. 

You need to re direct her focus on you make yourself more interest you can do this in a variety of ways but do not be assertive or punnish her. 

Use a clicker if you have to they do work and work wonders ^^

It could be that the barking is more interesting to her then you or your treats. 

Find something that she really likes you may find playing with her and spending time in the garden while the other dogs next door are out will help realise that they are nothing to concerned about. Teaching her that she does not have to protect the propperty. 

Spend time talking to her you could maybe tell her a story as silly as that sounds but reasuring voice will help distract her from what she is focussed on. Once you start to win her focus you can begin to teach her some commands while your out in the garden. 

This is a behaviour thats hard to fix and once you start with shock collar you will all ways rely on it. You will make your dog very unhappy. Dogs do feel pain but evolution has taught them to mask it well so we are poor judges of punishment and their for shouldn't.


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

You have been given some fantastic advice (along with some utter rubbish but we'll ignore that one) so I don't really have anything to add, other than I have a GSD so I totally understand what you mean about the reactiveness! I once read someone say that it can sometimes be beneficial to teach your dog to bark in order to train a "stop barking" command? I'm sure once he is in full flow that will be useless but maybe for the times he is just having a grumble. My dog will react quickly to people knocking on the door, but she doesnt react for long, so I feel your pain because once a GSD is in guarding mode they really go for it eh!  all the advice you have been given is fab, the watch me is a good one, and the look at that! I think the thing to remember is ALWAYS practice these things under threshold..meaning if he is unable to listen to you because of distractions, move further from the distractions and try again. Because although I know how reactive the little blighters can be, I also know how clever, quick to learn and eager to please they are  hang on in there...


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

fulwood said:


> You need counselling NOT your dog, and I'm going to give it to you for free in one paragraph!! It's time for you to grieve for the life you had before your reactive dog came along and ADAPT ADAPT ADAPT (or euthanase the dog). This is worst case scenario - my case. I am an expert in my experience and I am telling you now: Get a grip and adjust!!! No more holidays because there isn't a kennel in the country who will take him. Implement avoidance (empty fields at 6am and 11pm at night in summer), roadwalks, but strict handling and hyper-vigilance and develop a thick skin as quick as you can (it becomes second nature) and strict management. Stop worrying about how other people judge your dogs behaviour or you are f%$£*$!!!! Enjoy the fact that he is adorable in the house, love him, bond, watch your visitors stop calling unless you remove him to another room first, and buy some earplugs because you will NEVER stop him barking in the car (if he does). Once they see a dog (if he is as reactive as mine) there isn't a recall technique in the world to break the freeze focus in his mind. They 'go over' in a split second. I love my dog to bits. He's had psychologists at 110 quid an hour. I have learned all the techniques and implemented them consistently. It's all ****** IF your dog is VERY reactive as mine is. Strict management and you adapting is all there is. You must adapt as there is no forum, no book, no dog psychologist or rescue centre in the world who can help you. Get over what's come into your life as quick as you can and enjoy your new life with him.


I shall remember to tell my dog reactive dog this....the one that came to me 4 months ago that i couldn't walk past another dog without lunging, straining at the end of the leash.....and now he can happily trot past most (he has only been here a short time so in time he will improve more and more  )other dogs on a loose lead by my side...

Reactive dogs CAN be helped, with the right people by their sides...To call yourself an expert and then tell the op she needs to PTS the dog unless she just resigns herself to having a reactive dog is rude at best...just downright ridiculous IMO :frown2:


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> I shall remember to tell my dog reactive dog this....the one that came to me 4 months ago that i couldn't walk past another dog without lunging, straining at the end of the leash.....and now he can happily trot past most (he has only been here a short time so in time he will improve more and more  )other dogs on a loose lead by my side...
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Aww thanks my dear 
we still have a way to go with some things, but as I said before he has only been here for 4 months now so will get better as time goes on :thumbup1:


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

OK. Don't talk to me about Drivel. The person who started this thread used the phrase "VERY reactive". If you start a thread alluding to a spectrum of reactivity, people (like me) will assume VERY means VERY. I'm not talking 'celebrity' psychologists either. My dog has been assessed by the finest in this land. Medications made no difference. Scientists and behaviourists on the international 'expert' circuit. I learned everything and continue to implement consistent techniques. Avoidance being the best and most successful in my dog's case, as his stress-return to baseline after a reaction is three days. He was refused by every single collie rescue centre in this country, all advising euthanasia, as none of them were interested in helping me and they only want the dogs they can rehome. My only other alternative was the strictest of management (I elected the latter). I am an experienced handler. The reactive dog I have is the only one still alive out of a litter of 8 at the age of 5 (temperament). He is that attuned and reactive, he attacks a kitchen bar stool if it is not in the place it normally is. It is my expert experience that when a reactive dog comes into the life of a person who has never had a reactive dog, the most important thing the owner needs to do is 'get a grip', adjust and get over the changes that a reactive dog brings ASAP, as most become anxious and depressed and frantic and this makes the situation worse (why do you think most people come on this site????). Of course I would say "read scaredey dog, culture clash, this book, go that workshop, another forum, etc. etc." BUT at the end of the day, all the "poor you, have you tried abc and xyz, buy a dap plug, tellington touch and all the rest of it" brigade (whilst being all nice and positive and supportive) usually only have their expert experience to draw on, and it's usually NOT with what was defined on this thread as "VERY reactive" (the dogs that lunge and now happily trot past a dog". Leash reaction only is the simplest to sort (curve, graded exposure at distance, blah blah). In our own mental health service, we have people who have a panic attack at a checkout in asda, go for 8 sessions of CBT and their problem is gone forever. That's the category I put some of the responses above into. Yourreactive dog cases haven't been that complex or you wouldn't be so confident. Then, there are humans so reactive that they are in secure hospitals. What's hogwash about that??? There's nothing offensive about telling people how it is. I would much rather someone had told me the reality and truth about owning a VERY reactive dog instead of making me think that my life before him would soon turn to normal and we'd be skipping with the shitzus in a field of daisies on a retro weekend replicating the summer of love. It's false hope and a load of rubbish!


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2013)

If your going to assume such rubbish then you have a choice not to reply.


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

Yes, you're right.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

fulwood said:


> OK. Don't talk to me about Drivel. The person who started this thread used the phrase "VERY reactive". If you start a thread alluding to a spectrum of reactivity, people (like me) will assume VERY means VERY. I'm not talking 'celebrity' psychologists either. My dog has been assessed by the finest in this land. Medications made no difference. Scientists and behaviourists on the international 'expert' circuit. I learned everything and continue to implement consistent techniques. Avoidance being the best and most successful in my dog's case, as his stress-return to baseline after a reaction is three days. He was refused by every single collie rescue centre in this country, all advising euthanasia, as none of them were interested in helping me and they only want the dogs they can rehome. My only other alternative was the strictest of management (I elected the latter). I am an experienced handler. The reactive dog I have is the only one still alive out of a litter of 8 at the age of 5 (temperament). He is that attuned and reactive, he attacks a kitchen bar stool if it is not in the place it normally is. It is my expert experience that when a reactive dog comes into the life of a person who has never had a reactive dog, the most important thing the owner needs to do is 'get a grip', adjust and get over the changes that a reactive dog brings ASAP, as most become anxious and depressed and frantic and this makes the situation worse (why do you think most people come on this site????). Of course I would say "read scaredey dog, culture clash, this book, go that workshop, another forum, etc. etc." BUT at the end of the day, all the "poor you, have you tried abc and xyz, buy a dap plug, tellington touch and all the rest of it" brigade (whilst being all nice and positive and supportive) usually only have their expert experience to draw on, and it's usually NOT with what was defined on this thread as "VERY reactive". In our own mental health service, we have people who have a panic attack at a checkout in asda, go for 8 sessions of CBT and their problem is gone forever. That's the category I put some of the responses above into. Yourreactive dog cases haven't been that complex or you wouldn't be so confident. Then, there are humans so reactive that they are in secure hospitals. What's hogwash about that???


Utter hogwash...... there are many people that have been able to help VERY reactive dogs and you have NO idea what reactive cases I have helped... You have no idea how reactive my dog is/was when he turned up, nor do you know of his issues or why I ended up with him 

I stand by my initial statement that reactive/aggressive dogs *can* be helped with the RIGHT people by their side, of course if the reason the dog is reactive is due to a medical problem that can't be resolved, then PTS may be the best option for the dog but without assessing the dog yourself you can't judge this.

Maybe you can't help your dog and find that management is the way to go, but who's to say that someone else could help...Without knowing which behaviourists you have used (no need to mention who they are) then I can't say if you have chosen the right professionals, just because the ones you have hired haven't been able to help doesn't mean that someone else can't help.

To tell someone that they should forget about getting a professional in to try to help the dog is down right dangerous, there are many out there that are fully equipped and experienced in helping cases like this, you just need to pick through the chaff first


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2013)

fulwood said:


> OK. Don't talk to me about Drivel. The person who started this thread used the phrase "VERY reactive". If you start a thread alluding to a spectrum of reactivity, people (like me) will assume VERY means VERY. I'm not talking 'celebrity' psychologists either. My dog has been assessed by the finest in this land. Medications made no difference. Scientists and behaviourists on the international 'expert' circuit. I learned everything and continue to implement consistent techniques. Avoidance being the best and most successful in my dog's case, as his stress-return to baseline after a reaction is three days. He was refused by every single collie rescue centre in this country, all advising euthanasia, as none of them were interested in helping me and they only want the dogs they can rehome. My only other alternative was the strictest of management (I elected the latter). I am an experienced handler. The reactive dog I have is the only one still alive out of a litter of 8 at the age of 5 (temperament). He is that attuned and reactive, he attacks a kitchen bar stool if it is not in the place it normally is. It is my expert experience that when a reactive dog comes into the life of a person who has never had a reactive dog, the most important thing the owner needs to do is 'get a grip', adjust and get over the changes that a reactive dog brings ASAP, as most become anxious and depressed and frantic and this makes the situation worse (why do you think most people come on this site????). Of course I would say "read scaredey dog, culture clash, this book, go that workshop, another forum, etc. etc." BUT at the end of the day, all the "poor you, have you tried abc and xyz, buy a dap plug, tellington touch and all the rest of it" brigade (whilst being all nice and positive and supportive) usually only have their expert experience to draw on, and it's usually NOT with what was defined on this thread as "VERY reactive" (the dogs that lunge and now happily trot past a dog". Leash reaction only is the simplest to sort (curve, graded exposure at distance, blah blah). In our own mental health service, we have people who have a panic attack at a checkout in asda, go for 8 sessions of CBT and their problem is gone forever. That's the category I put some of the responses above into. Yourreactive dog cases haven't been that complex or you wouldn't be so confident. Then, there are humans so reactive that they are in secure hospitals. What's hogwash about that??? There's nothing offensive about telling people how it is. I would much rather someone had told me the reality and truth about owning a VERY reactive dog instead of making me think that my life before him would soon turn to normal and we'd be skipping with the shitzus in a field of daisies on a retro weekend replicating the summer of love. It's false hope and a load of rubbish!


If someone has a dog who is so far gone that the dog will attack a bar stool for being in the wrong place, they need not be on a forum asking for advice, they need to be working with a qualified behaviorist and frankly, LISTENING if the behaviorist says the dog is better off humanely euthanized. 
I mean really, who's interest does it serve to keep a dog alive who will stress out that much over a barstool out of place? Certainly not the dog's....

Now... if that dog improves with b-mod, then certainly the suggestions on this thread are indeed helpful and appropriate for the situation no?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

fulwood said:


> OK. Don't talk to me about Drivel. The person who started this thread used the phrase "VERY reactive". If you start a thread alluding to a spectrum of reactivity, people (like me) will assume VERY means VERY. I'm not talking 'celebrity' psychologists either. My dog has been assessed by the finest in this land. Medications made no difference. Scientists and behaviourists on the international 'expert' circuit. I learned everything and continue to implement consistent techniques. Avoidance being the best and most successful in my dog's case, as his stress-return to baseline after a reaction is three days. He was refused by every single collie rescue centre in this country, all advising euthanasia, as none of them were interested in helping me and they only want the dogs they can rehome. My only other alternative was the strictest of management (I elected the latter). I am an experienced handler. The reactive dog I have is the only one still alive out of a litter of 8 at the age of 5 (temperament). He is that attuned and reactive, he attacks a kitchen bar stool if it is not in the place it normally is. It is my expert experience that when a reactive dog comes into the life of a person who has never had a reactive dog, the most important thing the owner needs to do is 'get a grip', adjust and get over the changes that a reactive dog brings ASAP, as most become anxious and depressed and frantic and this makes the situation worse (why do you think most people come on this site????). Of course I would say "read scaredey dog, culture clash, this book, go that workshop, another forum, etc. etc." BUT at the end of the day, all the "poor you, have you tried abc and xyz, buy a dap plug, tellington touch and all the rest of it" brigade (whilst being all nice and positive and supportive) usually only have their expert experience to draw on, and it's usually NOT with what was defined on this thread as "VERY reactive" (the dogs that lunge and now happily trot past a dog". Leash reaction only is the simplest to sort (curve, graded exposure at distance, blah blah). In our own mental health service, we have people who have a panic attack at a checkout in asda, go for 8 sessions of CBT and their problem is gone forever. That's the category I put some of the responses above into. Yourreactive dog cases haven't been that complex or you wouldn't be so confident. Then, there are humans so reactive that they are in secure hospitals. What's hogwash about that??? There's nothing offensive about telling people how it is. I would much rather someone had told me the reality and truth about owning a VERY reactive dog instead of making me think that my life before him would soon turn to normal and we'd be skipping with the shitzus in a field of daisies on a retro weekend replicating the summer of love. It's false hope and a load of rubbish!


Drivel Part 2


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

.. and I stand by what I say. The first thing I would tell anyone who discovers they have a reactive dog is get a grip. If you can't get a grip, get a counsellor (a dog behaviourist will do, as long as they lend more of an ear to the owner than the dog). You cannot afford to be socially anxious or depressed at the changes that your reactive dog has brought about (it will make your dog worse). If you can't get a grip and resent the changes your reactive dog has brought about - and you can't change their behaviour significantly to your own liking - TRY and rehome and when this fails, put up or PTS. The person who knows a dog best is the person that lives with it, and this is acquired over time. I don't have to report a full timeline of what my journey that leads me to post on the basis that I am an expert in my experience, suffice to say my experience has led me to formulate the following beliefs (which you are perfectly entitled to disagree with). A) Behaviourists are in the business of earning money. They don't take their money off the owner for the sake of the dog!!!!! It is my experience that (certainly now) they cannot tell me anything or teach me anything that I cannot read in a book, and on reflection, many clutched at straws to explain the behaviour and changed it like a clairvoyant does who starts off with "I'm sensing a Joe ... or no it's a Doris ... did she have blonde hair .... ". All have different subjective explanations for the dog's presentation, and the techniques of systematic desensitisation and graded exposure can be done without chucking 40 -110 quid an hour at a professional by asking a friend with a neutral dog to meet you at the park BUT it is perfectly right and ethical to make no promises of successful behaviour modification to anyone with a VERY reactive dog (unless the owner is looking like a soft touch and the behaviourist can see a VERY long and prosperous relationship ahead!!!)


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

You have obviously spent your time around the wrong behaviourists :shocked:

Your "experience" is coming across loud and clear in your posts, and the delivery of your "expert advice" is quite frankly rude and unhelpful :frown2:


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

THE most (absolute most) HELPFUL thing a human being can tell another human being right from the get go of their journey bonding with a reactive dog is to warn them of the journey ahead (get tough quick, get a grip ... this isn't for the faint hearted, etc.). If you don't do this, their emotional rollercoaster is going to be more disorientating and chaotic; their expectations of slow or no progress will have a negative impact and they will arrive at the point of thinking about a shock collar (God save us). The quicker you get them into the zone of regulating their emotional reaction to owning a reactive dog, the better. There is no way that I can accept that what I've posted is unhelpful, but I respect your viewpoint. Secondly, I'm on an open forum so my advice is not unsolicited. In addition, being frank is not rude. I am not offended by the post suggesting I PTS my dog for reacting when his memory slide doesn't fit with a moved bar stool. I have a dog who is VERY reactive and the possibility of PTS as necessary has to be acknowledged. Some people just haven't got the resilience to put their life on hold for 14 years, but it is an absolute possibility. We all know as dog owners, that, on an outing with our dogs, we can stop and talk to a hundred other owners (not with my reactive one obviously), and invariably, they will all have something different to say "you should do this, you should try that". This is all well and good, but it gets very confusing for inexperienced pet owners who really should be living over time with their dogs, observing and working it out for themselves.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

fulwood said:


> ... inexperienced pet-owners... really should be living over time with their dogs,
> *observing & working it out for themselves.*


U're joking - i hope? 
:shocked: Surely U're not suggesting that an Average Pet-Owner, hereafter APO, could all on her or his own, 
generate all the specific step-by-step protocols that can be found in the book, _'Click to Calm'_?

Or, even after years of observing their own dogs, that an APO could write the equivalent of _'Mine!'_ or _'Fight!'_,
without any formal education on dog-behavior, learning theory, operant conditioning, etc?

Moreover, *"observing" accurately* is an excellent thing, but most if not all APOs who have no prior 
dog-specific learning, will view the dog's behavior thru the warping lenses of their own assumptions, 
prejudices, biases, etc. It's still common for ppl to believe wholeheartedly that *"dogs are pack animals"*,
which was tossed somewhere in the late-70s or early-80s; that dogs who mark indoors are *"dominant"*
when it's far more-likely that the dog is anxious, & marking as a result, or is excited by the presence of Fs
as estrous pheromones are detectible over a mile away, or is reacting to something within the household
[new resident, emotional upheaval, teen-kids in puberty, ____ ] etc.

In short, there are a lot of myths that are sincerely believed by many APOs; as a result, no matter how well
s/he may *observe*, the APO may come to erroneous conclusions.

It's also true that some very simple hands-on help from an experienced trainer can be very, very
valuable - out of all proportion to the money spent. LEASH HANDLING is a skill; lots of APOs don't do it 
at all well, & as a direct result, managing the dog is much-more of a struggle than it should be.

Just learning to read the dog's earliest calming / stress signals can help the owner predict a developing 
problem, long before it becomes a crisis.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/88630-dog-body-language-why-matters-so-much.html
.
.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

fulwood said:


> THE most (absolute most) HELPFUL thing a human being can tell another human being right from the get go of their journey bonding with a reactive dog is to warn them of the journey ahead (get tough quick, get a grip ... this isn't for the faint hearted, etc.). If you don't do this, their emotional rollercoaster is going to be more disorientating and chaotic; their expectations of slow or no progress will have a negative impact and they will arrive at the point of thinking about a shock collar (God save us). The quicker you get them into the zone of regulating their emotional reaction to owning a reactive dog, the better. There is no way that I can accept that what I've posted is unhelpful, but I respect your viewpoint. Secondly, I'm on an open forum so my advice is not unsolicited. In addition, being frank is not rude. I am not offended by the post suggesting I PTS my dog for reacting when his memory slide doesn't fit with a moved bar stool. I have a dog who is VERY reactive and the possibility of PTS as necessary has to be acknowledged. Some people just haven't got the resilience to put their life on hold for 14 years, but it is an absolute possibility. We all know as dog owners, that, on an outing with our dogs, we can stop and talk to a hundred other owners (not with my reactive one obviously), and invariably, they will all have something different to say "you should do this, you should try that". This is all well and good, but it gets very confusing for inexperienced pet owners who really should be living over time with their dogs, observing and working it out for themselves.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm sorry AmberLinn, I'm really not trying to derail your thread, but I can't leave well enough alone! 



fulwood said:


> THE most (absolute most) HELPFUL thing a human being can tell another human being right from the get go of their journey bonding with a reactive dog is to warn them of the journey ahead (get tough quick, get a grip ... this isn't for the faint hearted, etc.). If you don't do this, their emotional rollercoaster is going to be more disorientating and chaotic; their expectations of slow or no progress will have a negative impact and they will arrive at the point of thinking about a shock collar (God save us).


This has got to be one of the funnier things I've read 
a) Bonus points for starting the post with an absolute, we all know how much dogs and kids like to shove those in your face when they turn out not to be true. b) That emotions respond to "knock it off" (like that ever worked - hey you afraid of spiders, just stop it okay?) and c) that from there you leap to the conclusion that there will be no progress in b-mod, and then that will snowball in to a disorienting emotional roller-coaster that ends in a shock collar.



fulwood said:


> The quicker you get them into the zone of regulating their emotional reaction to owning a reactive dog, the better. There is no way that I can accept that what I've posted is unhelpful, but I respect your viewpoint. Secondly, I'm on an open forum so my advice is not unsolicited. In addition, being frank is not rude.


Do you approach b-mod with dogs the same way you do with people? Just tell them they need to regulate their emotional reaction and ta-da! it happens? Do you know anything about how emotions function in the brain?



fulwood said:


> I am not offended by the post suggesting I PTS my dog for reacting when his memory slide doesn't fit with a moved bar stool. I have a dog who is VERY reactive and the possibility of PTS as necessary has to be acknowledged. Some people just haven't got the resilience to put their life on hold for 14 years, but it is an absolute possibility.


I didn't suggest you should PTS your dog  I simply asked who's interest it would serve to keep ANY dog alive who can't even relax in his own home. I don't think it makes any owner a hero for doing so, misguided ego stroking is more what comes to mind. 
Now, if your dog no longer freaks out at bar stools, then that suggests to me that you were able to accomplish some success with b-mod which means the suggestions on this thread for exactly that are not the drivel you claim them to be.



fulwood said:


> We all know as dog owners, that, on an outing with our dogs, we can stop and talk to a hundred other owners (not with my reactive one obviously), and invariably, they will all have something different to say "you should do this, you should try that". This is all well and good, but it gets very confusing for inexperienced pet owners who really should be living over time with their dogs, observing and working it out for themselves.


There's actually not that much confusion when it comes to the dog training/behavior community - you know, the professionals? Pretty much every one of them agrees on how dogs learn, how classical and operant conditioning works, etc. There might be some difference of opinion when it comes to application, but the fundamentals don't differ much.


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

I can think of one collie rescue who takes on dogs that are unrehomable (is that a word?) and keeps them safe for the rest of their lives. But sadly places are few and far between. Some collies are completely screwed over by bad breeding and human handling. I applaud that you have persevered with your dog and find ways of managing its problems. But you shouldnt judge other people's "reactive" dogs so sweepingly unless you know their history. Each case is different and the word reactive can vary in its meaning so much. And it's worth trying positive training methods and techniques for every reactive dog under careful supervision before finally rubber stamping them as beyond help or change.


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

Yes ... I know her well. I know Cheshire well, I know York well, I know birmingham well, Sheffield well, myerscough well .......... I know the one kennel you refer to well (and her control methods took me 5 minutes to master and had done so before I arrived in Yorkshire). B assessed but refused to take him because a) she'd had a bad experience with another in his line and b) he will not be quiet in kennels and like other dogs who won't (no matter what) they have to go. The last post mostly captures the whole point of my posts though. Others have taken what I've wrote into the stratosphere (I clearly acknowledged a spectrum of reactivity) but I have travelled this land with my reactive dog and my posts are largely a general consensus of conclusions reached about my dog by people who those people posting on this thread would consider 'experts' themselves, ironically including the founder members of the associations you all proport to belong to!!!!! Strict management in my case, despite the reactivity being wholly 'Lion in the Wizard of Oz'. Any behaviourist or rescuist who claims 100% success in BM is up a gum tree. My personal experience compels me to tell anyone with a reactive dog that no matter how reactive your dog is - RIGHT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING - You have to get real and make sure that you know that you have to love them for what they are and NOT what you want them to become. I don't anthropomorphise. Taking on a reactive dog can (often I would argue) cause social anxiety in human beings (scanning, avoidance, isolation) depression, debt, alcoholism, isolation, panic attacks, divorce, loss of friends, neighbour disputes, inter *dog-owner * verbal AND physical fights, etc.) and mostly when people set off on the journey of owning one and have had NO idea of the possible road ahead. The pub lunches where dogs are allowed stop (if your dog is VERY reactive), the holidays stop, ................... Not entirely the detrimental mental affects I have experienced personally I might add, but I have connected with many around the globe where this has happened. The common thread is: "I had NO idea what I was taking on ... if only someone had told me to get a grip ... warned me ... toughened me up ... told me to chill out and be a shoulder shrugger a bit more ... worried less about what other people think about me as a human and how they might judge me ... tell me not to over-explain that I didn't have him from being a pup ... dumb him down constantly to others, etc.!". Not too dissimilar to Irene Cara at the beginning of fame, where she tells her class: "Well _reactive_ dogs cost ... and right here is where you start paying, in sweat, _patience, tenacity, love, care, two fingers to the idiot who screams 'you need to PTS that dog_, etc. etc. I just advocate behaviourists being a bit tougher with the 'softies' who start going under with a reactive dog. It's not good for man or beast.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Funny....only one person has claimed to be an "expert" on this thread....and only one person that continuely compares reactive dogs to "reactive" confused humans 

I'm also laughing that you claim to know exactly which rescue Lopside is referring too without her giving away even the slightest clue as to where they may be or indeed who they are :lol:

It is already clear that by page two of this thread the op had already "got a grip" (as you so eloquently put ) and she will not resort to buying a shock collar.... the op was frustrated at the time of writing this and couldn't see another option, but with others helpful ( ) posts they have realised they are not alone and that they *can* continue to help and work *with* their dog...but still you jump in with your expertise telling them that they need to seek a counselor (just plain rude) and to resign themselves to the fact they have a reactive dog :shocked:

I'm just glad that not everyone thinks this way :frown2:


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

Everyone is an 'expert in their experience', even you!! It's just that some people will argue the connection between their elbow and their anus for the sake of it (I don't). Most of the time, it is in the context of my experience that I use the word 'expert' in relation to my posts, as in "it is my EXPERT experience that ....". You don't honestly think that you are more of an expert in my experience than I am, do you??? 'Experts' someone pays for are accountable to the person they offer the service to. Qualifications do not define the quality of an individual, and though thousands of hours of working with reactive dogs at all points of the reactivity spectrum does constitute experience), all dogs are individual cases and operant, classical, bm, etc. will vary in effect on an individual dog. I believe that experts in this context have a duty to GENERALISE THE SPECTRUM and tell a person at the start of a human-reactive dog relationship everything I've said in previous posts (worst case scenario when you are setting out on a history and case-building journey where there is little to differentiate reduction) AND if someone gets desperate enough to be thinking about a shock collar (be this a consistent thought or fluctuating state) they themselves in my experience need anxiety and stress reduction support, a listening ear and I would recommend counselling at this stage for themselves. They may get support on forums like this (and individual 'experts by experience' perspectives), but to be honest (the way this thread has gone) they will be more likely and better off to seek one counsel and use one counsel only.


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

As I'm lay in bed mulling this over it occurred to me is there a difference then between a genetic temperament issue and reactivity as described by fulwood and an acquired or learnt activity. I know from chatting to my friend who is in my opinion a fantastic dog trainer that some dogs she has come across are "not right in the head" and are so neurotic that they live their life in a constant state of stress. And such behaviour has been there since a pup and sometimes traced back to the line. But I would imagine that a learnt behaviour or reactivity would be easier to unlearn. So again each case on its own merits.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lopside said:


> ... is there a difference... between a genetic temperament issue & reactivity... as an acquired or learnt activity[?]
> 
> I know from chatting to my friend, [IMO] a fantastic dog trainer, that some dogs she's come across
> are "not right in the head", & are so neurotic that they live their life in a constant state of stress.
> ...


it's possible for a serious neurotic behavior to be present due to genetic inheritance - but that's usually
diagnosed fairly early, as the pup is apparently "not normal" from a pretty early age - the breeder might 
not notice it, but the original owner usually sees a vet / DVM-behaviorist before the pup hits puberty.

Even genetic behavior-problems CAN BE reduced, in many cases; that may mean meds, plus B-Mod, 
but it doesn't necessarily mean the dog's a hopeless case. FEAR - such as severe heritable timidity - 
is the single most-difficult suite of behaviors to alter, & global fears are the worst of all, where sights, 
sounds, touch, etc, can all be instantly terrifying.

Aggro / reactivity, even the inherited variations, is IME easier to alter than is fear.

As for "learned reactivity", just like any other learned behaviors, the same rules hold:
the SHORTER the dog has practiced X behavior, the better the prognosis & the faster the "un-learning".
.
.


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

_As I'm lay in bed mulling this over it occurred to me is there a difference then between a genetic temperament issue and reactivity as described by fulwood and an acquired or learnt activity. I know from chatting to my friend who is in my opinion a fantastic dog trainer that some dogs she has come across are "not right in the head" and are so neurotic that they live their life in a constant state of stress. And such behaviour has been there since a pup and sometimes traced back to the line. But I would imagine that a learnt behaviour or reactivity would be easier to unlearn. So again each case on its own merits._

I've mulled this over many times myself. I keep thinking that it can only be a difference in terms of predisposed sensitivity/vigilance/acuteness of sense and how ingrained or adaptive/maladaptive the reactivity is'. It's obvious my dog "isn't right in the head", though his bloods, etc. are all normal and he is physically fit as a fiddle. His reactions aren't fits and though I was prepared to pay for it, I was told an MRI would show nothing (canine neuroscience hasn't started looking for personality disorder-like neural pathways in canine brains ... yet). Chlomicalm had no affect, in fact the only thing that I've seen work on him is an anesthetic. How the reactivity presents is the same as any other reactive dog (just the number of times reacting, the duration of the reaction, the intensity and the return to baseline is different, as is the fact that consistency over time has modified his behaviour not a jot). If his high stress state was constant (as I have to admit it is when I take him out of the home), I would have PTS for his sake a few years ago. However, his house state is 'lower than high stress' to calm and affectionate, only reactive to changes in 'not the norms'. All of his madness that takes him into a dog version of human dissociation in a split second is reactive to a real cue ("gone over" or "beyond reach" or "untappable into-able" for modification work) therefore, you never get to a stage with him where you can say 'he's psychotic' or to a stage of 'no hope, give up'. Therefore, you never get to a stage where you feel you can legitimately sign off selective euthanasia .. for his sake I mean. I'm basically doing what the only rescue centre I know of does with dogs like mine ... giving them a secure services quality of life, keeping them safe, stimulated and alive. In the end (with all reactive dogs) you must accept and come to terms quick, adapt, train (handling and modification), passage of time = experience and knowing your dog, accept the level of change you have achieved, then put up or get shut! Reactive dogs are hard work. People need to know this from the start (anyway ... I've flogged my point to death now, and it's not even been that cathartic either). Here he is, Introducing my dog:

_FEAR - such as severe heritable timidity - is the single most-difficult suite of behaviors to alter, & global fears are the worst of all, where sights, sounds, touch, etc, can all be instantly terrifying. _

My dog was with his first breeder for six months. Transported to another breeder for 9 months. I took him at 15 months (a quivering duck in prized-bull clothing.


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

I'm being nosey...what was he bred for? As in agility, sheep work, showing etc? If B was aware of the "line" when you took him then that questions how ethical the breeder is continuing said line


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

Show. Yes, Yorkshire B had her definite suspect based on her experience with others from a particular line, but other 'experts' saw other problems in the line. Obviously I told everyone that needed to know, but a lot knew already and they all started blaming each other, I never got a full, true picture (which is all I wanted so I had a full, accurate history to work with). I was dragged into the under-belly world of breeding for show (and what went on in the show world in certain camps at that time). Eventually, another, very respected Myerscough B told me to forget about his history and start from scratch, as someone would do with a rescue of unknown history. This is because in addition to the genetics question-mark, I would never get to the bottom of confirming the horror stories being banded about how he was kept and alleged specific events people said had happened.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I can't help but think that either someone's dog isn't as bad as they claim to be.....or, if they are it is actually coming across as the owner is choosing not to PTS so that they can play the martyr just a lil bit 

If a dog really is as bad as being so reactive to everything as soon as they leave the home and have been this way over time even tho B-mod has been tried and failed then IMO it is not in the dogs best interest to be kept...What sort of life is it that a dog can't even leave a house without becoming reactive to this degree :frown:

Again with the comparing of human issues tho, even tho they claim not to anthropomorphize, maybe, just maybe (again without seeing the dog I am only able to assume due to what is written) if the owner stopped comparing fear reactivness with human mental health issues, then maybe, just maybe, they may be in the right frame of mind (being open) to actively help their dog 

In my experience there are very few dogs that are beyond help, they just need the right help


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

My dog isn't 'BAD'. He's VERY reactive! Severely reactive! He has a quality of life (strictly managed). Variables? Intermittent? Wholly unpredictable? Severity correlated to stress level (fluctuation?). Stress level fluctuating in the absence of identifiable stressors? He runs and plays. He loves his food. He has a nice long sleep at night. Just out of interest, can you tell me why (in the context of 'treating fear') you are confident to mock the comparison between dogs and humans as somehow ludicrous? Alongside your confidence of changing any dog, do you believe yourself to be 'unconditionable'? Why do you think graded exposure isn't equally applicable to humans as dog?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dogs are not humans, you can not and should not compare them to humans...
I never claimed that *all* reactive dogs can be helped...I already said that if there are health issues then pts may be the only option, depending wholly on the individual circumstances.

What I said was that the *vast majority* can be helped given the right people and right circumstances.

But that is the thing, you have just assumed that someone who was frustrated at the time of writing this post needs counseling confused and seemly tried your best to tell them that behaviourists are con artists out for your hard earned money (granted some are, but many are in their line of work to help)... Which is why I commented.

As for your dog not being bad As you continually state throughout the thread, your dog is very reactive..that isn't good is it??? You are arguing over semantics there.. I don't know how reactive your dog is because I have never seen him, I can only go by what you have written here...and what you have said has lead me to post what I have 

Your definition of very reactive could be different from mine, it could be different from the op's, and then again from Tom, Dick or Harry's in the street,
just because someone has used the word "very" before reactive does not mean that they have to reside themselves to just managing the dog, they could very well help the dog with helpful pointers in the right direction...



> do you believe yourself to be 'unconditionable'?


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

We compare two species to know similarities and difference. We can apply the same treatments to dogs as we do humans with equal affect. All dogs can be helped by any person in any situation. All humans seek counsel (apart from narcissists and schizoids in active states). All behaviourists counsel humans as handlers. You are definitely right about some behaviourists. I have been reactive to some posts. Others have been reactive to mine. I agree that your very and my very are quite different. Your very is optimistic and mine is realistic. So  Everything's just fine. I'm just going to bow out of this thread now. It's actually very unusual for me to be drawn into splitting hairs, but reactivity in dogs is a subject I have lived experience of. Some won't be told, some 'know it all' and most will only learn the hard way. All I know is this: The sooner you (metaphorically) throw a bucket of cold water over a reactive dog owner in crisis, the better. Now  I think you would be great at sorting out the courier on another thread who is moaning 'cos an excited dog in the country scratched his "arse. Bye.


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## WildDog (Oct 1, 2012)

I...am wondering if Fulwood is joking.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

fulwood said:


> *emphasis added in BOLD - *
> 
> We compare two species to know similarities and difference.
> We can *apply the same treatments to dogs as we do humans, with equal affect.*


Excuse me, but that's a flat-out untruth: 
Many medications & non-med treatments that are NOT safe or apropos for dogs, 
are fine for humans - as there are dog-meds or dog-Tx that are not human-safe, & dog-meds 
or human-Tx that are not cat-safe.

all 3 are mammals, but make no mistake - they all differ in their tolerance of specific agents, the actions
of their livers & the kidney's functions, their anatomies share large common areas, but also differ.
ONE MAN'S MEAT IS ANOTHER'S POISON - this is a critical concept in diet, meds, & even B-Mod.

As a single example, "flooding" is possible with humans, as the SUBJECT - the person being treated - 
controls the intensity, duration, & distance from the trigger. Dogs should never be flooded, as they 
lack that crucial ability to control their own circumstances, & while helpless to control those things, 
are overwhelmed by their fears, so that far from helping, flooding makes them worse.

DS/CC is safe for any species; flooding is safe only for adult-humans, who are capable of deciding 
the parameters of their own treatment.



fulwood said:


> *emphasis added in BOLD - *
> 
> *All dogs can be helped by any person, in any situation.*
> All humans seek counsel (apart from narcissists and schizoids in active states).


ANY person? 
aside from the simple things, such as offering water or food to any dog who is hungry or thirsty, 
i can think of hundreds of ppl who are totally incapable of helping a dog with *behavior issues*.
They don't know squat about it, & more --- they don't WANT to; it's not a subject they have any 
interest whatever in. What about ppl who hate dogs, or fear them - no matter how "cute" or engaging?
They don't want to help any dog, except to help the dog to go somewhere else - ANYwhere else, 
& leave them in peace.

As for, *"All humans seek counsel"* --- I wish! There are loads of dog-owners whose dogs have simple, 
easily-fixable problems, whether medical, physical, or behavioral, & they seek NO counsel.
They address the problems themselves, with whatever hooey they inherited from great-grandad, 
or ignore them entirely while they get worse.



fulwood said:


> The sooner you (metaphorically) throw a bucket of cold water over a reactive dog owner
> in crisis, the better.


I strongly disagree - 
adding another crisis, that of an assault on their confidence, already shaky, is hardly "helpful".

U don't slap someone who's just broken an arm, to get them to stop crying.
U do what U can to alleviate the pain, address shock, & distract her or him, 
while U wait for the pros to get there.
Pain HURTS, dammit - crying is a perfectly normal response to pain.

Being supportive is IME a helluva lot more helpful than shocking someone with a real or even 
metaphorical "bucket of cold water" when s/he is already distraught, discouraged, & frustrated.
.
.


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

I got a notification via email re: this thread. Removed it now as I'm finished with this subject (it's going nowhere, as SOME people took my 'tough love' approach as dominant control and invalidation of the OP - not my intention). What was my intention re: "get a grip?". TOUGH LOVE basically! Which is the applied direction to another intended to aid and foster their health (and the dogs) by requiring (in this case the OP) to behave accountably and to look for professional help whenever they find it hard to behave in accordance with their own and their dog's best interests (she/he was obviously in conflict with their feelings about shock collars and thinking about using one). Since I interpret this as an escalation to an emergency, I assume she/he is a poor motivational responder to the reams of already digested sycophantic 'tea and biscuits' approach. You've identified the general points I was making and confirmed them as correct, then expanded the 'things' that don't fit into what I said. I wasn't actually referring to compound pharmaceutical treatments in the post you responded to, and I'm not getting into listing all the medications that are dual-applicable (there are thousands), more that from protists to me and you, our behaviour is steered by consequences (OC). I have seen flooding work though, and with a successful outcome for the dog. I am well aware of the differences between myself and a dog because I've compared them. We observe and compare everyday of our lives.


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## Debbierobb109 (Mar 23, 2013)

hi, iv skipped a few pages so sorry if my suggestion has been given already...
i have 2 fence reactive dogs, out back garden backs onto a huge field/park and they could see other dogs through the gate, luckily i could block up th egate so they couldnt see out,...are you able to do that?? even if its just with a black sheet for starters?? redirecting the behaviour is key...but of course its not always easy!! i was forever jumping up and going out if they barked and telling them quiet, they done the same in the house...although i allowed a few barks before i said quiet (and gave a treat when they were) its taken a few months but they are much much better
as for skye, she was a nightmare when we had her out, she was a rescue and i couldnt even walk her past another dog when we first got her, i had to take her out with lots of really high reward treats and whenever i seen a dog and i could get her attention, even just for a second, she got a treat, it took a LONG time to get her where she is today lol, for a year she was still not very good but as time wet on she wa much better, i found that my reaction was making matters worse (tightning lead/going tense)

she now goes to the local dog obedience class (although the class is sh*t and the trainer is quite old, we go fo rthe social aspect) there are roughly 16 dogs on the night and she is happy now to be within that atmosphere (i still have to watch for excited dogs approaching as she will still growl and lunge) 
i bought her a muzzle (one she can still pant/eat/drink in) and i asked the trainer if i could just come and sit with her one night....she agreed, so i entered the room and sat her at the door and fed her HEAPS of liver, we stayed for 15 mins and then left. she was aware of the other dogs, and did have a carry on to start with but was much more interested in the liver. next week we stayed for 30 mins doing the same but a but sitting closer to the class, she lunged 3 times but i just walked her away and got her to sit and treated her.
by the 4th week we were part of the class, she now weaves in and out of the dogs and will si t by them too. i know the ones she wont react too (calm/males) so i make sure i stand by them so as not to set her up to fail. if a puppy/boisterous dog approaches i either ask the owner to avoid her or i walk her away and treat her. . . i go through a lot of treats at the class but if it means she is associating dogs with that then so be it. 
do you have any classes near by you could try that with??
id suggest getting him used to a muzzle (i rub butter and liver crumbs on skyes when she puts it on ) at least then you will have piece of mind.

its very frustrating and upsetting when your dog is reactive but dont lose heart, it can be worked on and you can both have a happier life! 
id suggest buying a clicker and find a really high reward treat...have you considered getting a kong for when he is outside?? if he is eating that he cant react to the fence...

another thing i find helps is using herbal calming meds, bach rescue remedy is good, also this stuff (scull cap and the liquid ) http://www.dorwest.com/Category/Nerves-and-Phobias (i used it th efirst night of th etraining class, and i use it on the run up to fireworks )
hope you find something to help you both


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

fulwood said:


> and to look for professional help .


Funny, cos you have spent this thread slating behvourists because you haven't been able to help your dog so therefore they are all out to get your money...

Comments such as:


> no dog psychologist or rescue centre in the world who can help you


The rest of your post is again, just blah, blah, blah because you are *again* missing the point completely (but please do play the victim of the misunderstood ).... The point of me commenting was to mention that there IS hope out there....It is one thing to metaphorically throw a bucket of cold water over them if they need it....but to just barge right in (even after said person is starting to see the light) to randomly throw said bucket just so you can say you have done that is (as already stated by myself) rude an obnoxious....There was no need for it, and there was no need to slate a whole group of professionals just because *you* can't help *your* dog...

Interesting that you say flooding works tho....just because something works (or appears to work) does not mean it is the right method to use :thumbdown:


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

Here we go again. I advocate many training methods including behaviourists for many problems. I've used obedience class for three years with my other two, just like everyone else. They sit, wait, stay, leave it ... I send 'em off, bring 'em back ... I understand the principles, 'get' the logic ... my degree is 'psychology'. You will see in earlier posts that I accessed many behaviourists. I also reported their conclusions. I saw so many, as I couldn't accept the PTS conclusion of the first, second, third or fourth (given as the only other option to strict management). I flippin' well wish I had seen the fourth first though!! The fourth is widely considered the very best for my breed and I wish I'd have gone to her first. She told me to "get a grip and get over owning what I owned" ... she didn't mince her words. She doesn't mince her words with anyone. This tough love was TLC. It wasn't rude, as I've been accused of. It was the best advice I'd ever been given. She taught me strict management handling. She didn't need to see me again and again and again. I wasn't milked for ten months (like with the others) who were blindly overly-confident that they were going to save the world!!!! Shame it took 'em months and months of failing to conclude "he's psychotic". I'd paid their b*%*$y mortgages for as long!!!! Behaviourists cannot change every dog, and they absolutely cannot stand being told this!!! They chant "everything can be modified" yet the proof of their pudding in most cases is a flat, fallen Victoria sandwich. When all else fails, they depart with ... "now you've got to give it time ... things don't happen overnight". Reactive dog owners have to "get a grip" and be confident and proactive (and just starting living with their reactive dog to adjust, adapt and learn to love it for what it is). If behaviourists are so confident in their skills, why don't they all bog off down to their local death row RSPCA and start taking 'em home? I'll tell you why: Because when you strip away all the hot air, they know full well that they weren't born in Bethlehem 2013 B*&%y years ago!!!!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Again missing the point completely -shrugs-

But please do continue to slate a whole profession because YOU can't help YOUR dog 
It now appears that just because you have had a bad experience with the profession, you are now bitter so want to make sure no one bothers anymore...

I repeat...Just because YOU can't help YOUR dog, doesn't meant that no one CAN help your dog...Just because YOU can't help YOUR dog, doesn't mean others can't help THEIR dogs...

Just because YOU have had a bad experience with "some" (you can not have met them all, and I doubt you have even met enough (or the right sort) to make a general statement about the profession) behavioursts, doesn't mean that they are ALL bad...

Maybe it is you that needs to take a step back and "get a grip", just because your dog is beyond help (in your words, unless I see the reactivness I can not make that judgement), doesn't mean that EVERY reactive dog is beyond help...

I'm done here now, because if you still fail to see why I posted and still wish to play the "everyone is jumping on me" card then I can't help that


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## Debbierobb109 (Mar 23, 2013)

FULLWOOD: behaviourists give you the tools/advise etc to help your dog...ultimately its up to you to continue that training.....you sound rather proud that your dog is they way it is.
of course some dogs cant be completely cured, it would be ridiculous to even think that, but you can work on the behaviour to make your dog safer/happier.
just because a handful of behaviourists couldn't help your dog it doesn't mean that they are all useless.....you give off the impression that you know everything and that could have factored into them not succeeding.
if you have a reactive dog and just give up and decide ok its reactive ill just have to put up with that then im afraid the dog doesn't have much hope of succeeding in being a bit happier and less reactive.....to tell the op to basically "live with it" is very bad advice, its lazy too! and if a behaviourist told me to just live with skyes then dog aggressive tendencies id have told her to f*ck off and id have sought out a behaviourist that was willing to actually work with my dog and me to show me techniques to try and help skye,
dogs can be desensitized and counter conditioned to help them with their fear etc, ok it might not help 100% and it may take a log time depending on the level of association to the stimuli... but if i thought my dog could be even 20% better then id do it...id certainly not just "live with it" that's not fair on the dog!


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## fulwood (Feb 12, 2011)

Whatever ....


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Debbierobb109 said:


> ...behaviourists give you the tools / advise, etc, to help your dog - ultimately, it's up to you to continue
> that training. You sound rather proud that your dog is the way he is.
> 
> of course some dogs cant be completely cured, it would be ridiculous to even think that, but you can work
> ...


CLICK - :yesnod:

:thumbup:  :thumbup:  :thumbup:  :thumbup: 
Brilliant & very heartening post - yes, it takes time, effort, & management, but it's not gloom & doom;
dogs are amazingly plastic & forgiving, they change habitual emotional reactions MUCH more easily
than humans do; a dog who hates all other M dogs may never be a social butterfly, but who needs dog-parks?
THE POINT is for the dog to be comfy & civil in public, able to tolerate or ignore other dogs, & for the owner 
to feel comfy taking their dog out on the sidewalk, to the vet's waiting-room, for a leashed walk, & so on.

Not all dogs are dog-social, but so far IME, -*all dogs*- can be civil in public, if they are not crowded, 
cornered & trapped, or forced to interact with others. Every dog [so far] has succeeded in becoming polite, 
at least to the degree of ignoring other dogs without reacting [no barks, growls, hackles, stares, lunges, 
no threatening behavior] --- comfortable enuf that if a dog did get too close, they could turn their heads 
& pretend s/he wasn't there, relying on the handler to keep an eye on the interloper.

My Akita was no dog-park dog, she would not tolerate rude goofballs who jumped on her, but she was 
POLITE to all dogs in public, so long as they did not threaten or molest her [or me], & she had buddies 
that she adored, too. Total strangers couldn't plunge headlong into her personal space or body-slam her, 
but she wrestled & ran with her buddies very happily.

Hell's bells, WE don't love every human we meet! Why do we expect our dogs to love EVERY dog?
It's not reasonable, or even logical. :laugh:
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

thank U kindly to Lopside for the rep - 
as i can't sign Ur wall, i thought i'd put it here. 

It's very much appreciated, 
- terry


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## Lopside (Mar 20, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> thank U kindly to Lopside for the rep -
> as i can't sign Ur wall, i thought i'd put it here.
> 
> It's very much appreciated,
> - terry


No problem. I enjoyed reading your reply


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