# My dog may have killed a lamb.



## Border Collie 1991 (Jan 31, 2010)

This morning, I awoke to find a dead lamb in the field directly behind where I live. The lamb had clearly been maulded, and my dog, Jack, a border collie, had been sniffing it and dragging it around the field. 

From further inspection, I would guess that the lamb was killed very recently; there was fresh blood in it's nostrils and the body had not yet started to smell. 

What confuses me is the fact that my dog had no blood in or around it's mouth, nor did it's have blood anywhere on it's paws or fur. The lamb itself was clearly mauled quite horrifically, so it confuses me how no blood whatsoever was to be found on my dog. 

I heard that, if a dog kills and eats an animal, it is likely to throw up or get a mild case of diarrahea. So far, my dog has not displayed any of these symptoms, but only time will tell. I wonder if any of the users on this forum would know any other way of discovering if a dog had digested any of the meat. 

If it does turn out that my dog has killed the lamb, will this affect his behaviour in any way? I haven't noticed any change behaviour as of yet, but it only has been a couple of hours. 

Any advice or help would be much appreciated.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

If your dog doesn't have any blood on him and being BC I would assume he is mostly or partly white?
Blood stains white easily, very easily. And by the sounds of the death, there should have been alot of blood.

It could have been a fox.

Do you own the sheep in the field, or do they belong to local farmer? Because if its a farmer and he finds out he can, legally shoot your dog if he sees it in the field with the sheep, especially now a lamb has been killed.

I would be making sure that your dog does not go ANYWHERE near sheep and if there are lambs or the sheep are pregnant dogs shouldn't be near them anyway.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2010)

Are the lambs being born in the field?
If so, it may have been born dead and been eaten by a fox or badger


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Hi 

due to there being no signs of blood on your dog, I would say it probably was a fox or another dog.

I think you would know about it if it was your dog who had killed it, so don't worry too much!

Does the farmer know about the lamb? If not, you could go and tell him/her that your collie found it in the field and just clarify that it wasn't your dog who killed it, then they're not likely to be suspicious of you if you see them in future


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## huskiesaregreat (Sep 24, 2009)

I would get your dog away from the lamb, as your dog will get automatic blame if u allow it to hang around the lambs body.


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

It doesn't sound like your dog killed the lamb. Birds will peck at a dead lamb too especially buzzards. It could even have been a big cat (Puma, not big moggie) depending on where you live.
Like PoisionGirl said though, Farmers WILL shoot and are quite within their rights to.
What is your dog usually like with sheep? I am presuming he's used to seeing them.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i am guessing here, but it sounds as tho Ur dog is allowed to roam freely - 
as it sounds as tho U have no idea where Ur dog was overnight.

this is not a healthy practice in an area where there are livestock - as obviously there must be, i am sure no errant breeze picked-up and deposited a lamb in another part of the country.

i would strongly-suggest that U bring the dog INdoors at night to be sure that he gets into no bad-habits with livestock, and so that Jack does not bodily intersect with the charge from a double-barrelled shotgun or a bullet from a rifle, held by an angry stock-owner.

whenever U are not actually out there WITH the dog to closely supervise, i would advise an overhead trolley for nice weather by day, or that the dog be indoors. BCs are quite notorious for their attachment to running stock, and chasing or harassing livestock generally shortens a dogs lifespan - radically. :nonod:

there have been many cases over the years, of BCs worrying + even killing small stock - 
and NO that the dog is not bloody means vanishingly little. 
had he killed the lamb elsewhere + carried it cross-country, there is every likelihood that he licked himself clean of blood - or if U have another dog, that his buddy helped to groom him clean.

if U are curious, picking-up his next stool and having it analysed for sheep-DNA would be interesting data - and they can distinguish muscle-DNA from blood, also. * if this were My Dog, i would be *assuming* until proven otherwise, that he had killed the lamb... and taking steps to make another repeat-performance impossible. * 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## Border Collie 1991 (Jan 31, 2010)

PoisonGirl said:


> If your dog doesn't have any blood on him and being BC I would assume he is mostly or partly white?
> Blood stains white easily, very easily. And by the sounds of the death, there should have been alot of blood.
> 
> It could have been a fox.
> ...


Yeah, he's mostly all white, even around the mouth. There was absolutely no sign of blood anywhere on his fur, and I would expect to see it as he's a very clean dog.

Also, the Lamb is owned by a neighbour of mine, or possibly his brother, I'm not sure exactly. They're very friendly people, so I don't believe that there would be a confrontation abou that whole event.

I hope to speak to him soon regarding whether or not he knows if the lamb was already dead.

Thanks for the response.


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## huskiesaregreat (Sep 24, 2009)

So has your dog ever killed anything before? was it just curious round the dead lamb


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

Could of been a fox - this time of year food is scarce! If you dont think your dog did it then dont take it any further, if you do try and make him sick with pineapple he should vomit the red meat and it will be clear


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## Border Collie 1991 (Jan 31, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i am guessing here, but it sounds as tho Ur dog is allowed to roam freely -
> as it sounds as tho U have no idea where Ur dog was overnight.
> 
> this is not a healthy practice in an area where there are livestock - as obviously there must be, i am sure no errant breeze picked-up and deposited a lamb in another part of the country.
> ...


Yeah, he's a free-roaming dog.

I would keep him inside if I could, but my parents are very unlikely to agree with this as they're very house-proud.

I used to keep him in the Garage, but he would become very distressed when left alone and would bark all night-long, which was very annoying.

I'm planning to put up chicken-wire all along my fence, but until I get the funds I'll have to make do with the current arragnement.

Thanks for your response.


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## huskiesaregreat (Sep 24, 2009)

pineapple makes a dog sick??


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

huskiesaregreat said:


> pineapple makes a dog sick??


Yeah its too sweet for them and they vomit it! Also a teaspoon of salt in water can make them instantly sick, ive had to do it many of times with pups injesting things like there own poo, sticks and stones! Some can eat it some cant, mine cant!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

A free roaming dog????!!!! 

I knew someone who's dog killed a lamb once - of course, the farmer said it was the best lamb he had ever bred, worth thousands of pounds. 

BTW if it was your dog its unlikely to change his temperament IME.


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## huskiesaregreat (Sep 24, 2009)

Nice :huh: lol

I would want to know if my dog had killed a lamb, but yeah it could have been a wild animal but if your dog is roaming free then anything could happen.. 

you could get a steel dog kennel for your garden or something? So you have security for him and you won't have to worry


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## Border Collie 1991 (Jan 31, 2010)

WoodyGSP said:


> It doesn't sound like your dog killed the lamb. Birds will peck at a dead lamb too especially buzzards. It could even have been a big cat (Puma, not big moggie) depending on where you live.
> Like PoisionGirl said though, Farmers WILL shoot and are quite within their rights to.
> What is your dog usually like with sheep? I am presuming he's used to seeing them.


My dog is a rescue dog and I've had him for a couple of months, so I'm not exactly sure of his history with other animals.

The only farm animals I've seen him interact with are Cows. He tends to chase them a lot, and if this fails, he'll just bark at them.

I've only recently begun to socialise him, and he is coming on leaps and bounds. He tends to get on well with most dogs; although his high energy level tends to irritate some older dogs, which can lead to fights.

I try to keep him away from the local wildlife.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

OMG what kind of rescue centre allowed a dog to go to a home where the dog would be roaming free?!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

I think he needs to be put back in the garage and keep him in there until you make the garden secure, 

he may have killed the lamb or he may not have, but as you saw him dragging it about the field i would think next time he sees one he could very easily attack...


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2010)

This has got to be a wind up unless the OP isn't from the uk.
SURELY?


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## Oenoke (Oct 17, 2009)

Whether your dog killed the lamb or not I wouldn't let him wander loose. As others have said if he is seen worrying livestock he can be shot and I would also be worried that he might get runover on a road. It is a legal requirement for a dog to where a collar with a tag that has your name, address and phone number on and if your dog were to cause an accident you could be held responsible.


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## Border Collie 1991 (Jan 31, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> OMG what kind of rescue centre allowed a dog to go to a home where the dog would be roaming free?!


The dog was kept in the garage for a couple of months - he disliked it intensely, choosing to run away from me anytime I tried to put him in the Garage. I tried using incentives such as treats to draw him into the garage, all with no success.

I began letting him sleep outside a couple of weeks ago - and so far he has been a lot calmer.

I would keep him inside if I could, but my parents are vehemently against it.


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## Border Collie 1991 (Jan 31, 2010)

rona said:


> This has got to be a wind up unless the OP isn't from the uk.
> SURELY?


What exactly has lead you to believe that this is a wind-up?


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## Border Collie 1991 (Jan 31, 2010)

Oenoke said:


> Whether your dog killed the lamb or not I wouldn't let him wander loose. As others have said if he is seen worrying livestock he can be shot and I would also be worried that he might get runover on a road. It is a legal requirement for a dog to where a collar with a tag that has your name, address and phone number on and if your dog were to cause an accident you could be held responsible.


He may be a 'free-roaming' dog, but he rarely ventures far from my garden. Also, he does have a collar, and he's chipped.


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

Border Collie 1991 said:


> What exactly has lead you to believe that this is a wind-up?


Because you first said that he may have killed a lamb, then you said he roams free, hes from a rescue :S

He shouldnt be allowed to roam free, hes *your* responsability you should be taking responsability for him and his actions, he shouldnt be allowed to roam around were he feels if you dont know his past he how do you know he isnt going off to kill other animals further away, considering you have know idea were he may be?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Border Collie 1991 said:


> He may be a 'free-roaming' dog, but he rarely ventures far from my garden. Also, he does have a collar, and he's chipped.


But he's also in a sheep-farming area, and can obviously escape from your land. I would think about keeping him better confined in future. He could be shot even if he isn't actually worrying the sheep or chasing them, regardless of whether he kills anything. And being a rescue you don't know his history - he could have ended up in the rescue _because_ of livestock issues.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Border Collie 1991 said:


> The dog was kept in the garage for a couple of months - he disliked it intensely, choosing to run away from me anytime I tried to put him in the Garage. I tried using incentives such as treats to draw him into the garage, all with no success.
> 
> I began letting him sleep outside a couple of weeks ago - and so far he has been a lot calmer.
> 
> I would keep him inside if I could, but my parents are vehemently against it.


YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE GOT HIM if you couldn't keep him safe!


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi

I have just picked up this thread and am very concerned on a number of counts.

Firstly, that a rescue would home a dog that was then left to wander around outside - albeit in your garden - although it sounds like your fence is not secure and therefore your dog could be anywhere when you are not watching it. I hope you have some sort of shelter for your dog, although even a shelter in this weather would be of little use unless it is extremely well built. I also hope that your dog is used to being outside and has become acclimatised over time.

Secondly, that you were keeping the dog in the garage for periods of time! Did the rescue know this and that the dog wasn't allowed in the home. A good rescue should check that ALL the family are happy with the dog and for it to be part of the family. Dogs, especially rescues, need human contact and the ability to adjust into a home for both their socliasition and training, a dog that is away from the family unit for periods of time is not going to re-habilitate well. However, if the dog was originally a 'farm' dog and kept outside or chained, this situation could be different and I stand to be corrected if this is the case with your dog.

Thirdly, that you allow your dog to get into an area where ewes are lambing. Ewes give birth outside - naturally - there is afterbirth around, which attracts all sorts of animals and this could be extrmely tempting for your dog to get to and the lambs are very very vulnerable. Ewes however are very tenacious when they have lambs, but are no match for a fully grown dog and whilst you say the farmer will most likely be OK about it, that lamb was worth money to him and price of lamb is at a high at the moment so maybe £30 or £40 per lamb. I wouldn't be happy if someone took that from me!

Finally, I do hope you have insurance. Owning a dog is a third party responsibility and you are responsible for any damage to persons or property. That means if your dog kills another animal, you have to pay for it. If your dog causes an accident, as a car swerved to avoid it and had damage, you will have to pay for that damage. Heavens forbid that someone should be injured in an accident caused by your dog. A dog is a legal responsbility - the police will hold your responsble for actions of your dog.

My suggestion to you, would be to make your garden secure or tether your dog when you are not there to supervise - use a running line. Better still make a pen that your dog cannot get out. Even better, explain to your parents that with the weather etc., you need to have your dog inside. Maybe compromise and he stays in the kitchen?

Kate


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Border Collie 1991 said:


> My dog is a rescue dog and I've had him for a couple of months, so I'm not exactly sure of his history with other animals.
> 
> The only farm animals I've seen him interact with are Cows. He tends to chase them a lot, and if this fails, he'll just bark at them.
> 
> ...


are you for real, god get a fence up, hes a rescue obviously been through some ordeals, doesnt need to be shot by a farmer for sheep worrying youd be so upset if this happened


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

If you know its lambing season you should tie your dog up. A border collie has to be trained like any other dog, In my view they are also highly agressive given the right stimulus, so you cant expect him not to get excited when preseted with something fluffy that wants to run away when hes a sheedog bred to chase/heard.
Whether he was responsible or not your not going to able to train a dog that sees the entire world as his.
Im a bit confused that you saw you dog dragging it around the field but you didnt see any blood - this would mean it could have killed it and there still be no blood.
If you think it may have been your dog even slightly, id apprach them with some kind of donation to their lost stock.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Border Collie 1991 said:


> He may be a 'free-roaming' dog, but he rarely ventures far from my garden. Also, he does have a collar, and he's chipped.


it doesn't matter, it is actually legal for ANY farmer to SHOOT a dog on it's land if it is worrying sheep, and in lambing season (or when sheep r pregnant), all the dog needs to be doing is in the field, not even looking at the sheep.
NO MATTER how well you know the people or how friendly they might be, their sheep are their livelihood and they will NOT stand for ANTHING stressing the sheep out at this important time of year.

You as a dog owner have the responsibility to keep your dog (And those he may come into contact with) safe. That means you CANNOT let him ''free roam'' off your property.

You will need to keep him on a lead if he is in the garden, or get him a tether, he needs to learn it is NOT ok to go off into fields whenever he feels like it.

And as for the garage thing, I would FAR rather have an unhappy dog for a while, than a dead one!!!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I honestly do not know what to make of this 

What rescue did you get him from? Or was it a private rescue like taking him on from someone else not a rescue shelter?

You can not carry on and allow your dog to be completely free and left to his own devices, if your parents didn't want a dog in the house then yoou really shouldn't have got one. 

You need to construct a very big outdoor kennel for him, which has heating of some sort and a fenced off area for him to be allowed free running from his kennel. The kennel has to be plenty big enough for him. Not just a sleeping area.

Chicken wire is NOT a good idea to use. Its very easily broken or twisted/bent. You will need strong wooden panels or steel mesh. It will also need to be very high i would not make it any shorter than 8ft at the very very least.

I also would not tether him it can lead to very stressed dog that can turn aggressive in the worst possibilty. It can also cause neck injuries.

If none of this can be done then i ask why did you get a dog?????????


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## huskiesaregreat (Sep 24, 2009)

To be honest,whats the point in rehoming a dog if you are not willing to give it the basic need of security? I am very shocked that a rescue would give a dog to a home where they are "house proud" and not willing to have the dog indoors, especially as you have no other alternative, kennel or secure area in your garden to make his home. And even if he didn;t like the garage, if you had of stuck at it and trained him, buy him a crate, fill it with blankets, make him feel safe in there, he would have settled down eventually and would get into a routine of knowing his home is the garage (not ideal in my opinion) but he could sleep there at night and therefore he is not going out getting up to things.

Have you ever considered a steel dog kennel, they are secure for dogs.

I'm not being funny BUT Why did you get a dog if you aren't allowed it in the house? like someone else said couldn't u have it in the kitchen atleast? 

I also hope you have insurance, as the owner you are responsible for this dog, whether he is a rescue or not, its your duty as a dog owner to keep him secure and content


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Not sure whether to laugh or despair


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

im quite shocked too...this dog could go anywhere during the night and could end up lost and hurt or anything and a shelter thought this was ok?? hmmm...poor dog doesnt seem to be very safe, u really need to thik about doing something and soon! x


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## huskiesaregreat (Sep 24, 2009)

I think if you can't offer a secure home you should consider giving the dog to someone who can (sorry to be blunt)


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

huskiesaregreat said:


> I think if you can't offer a secure home you should consider giving the dog to someone who can (sorry to be blunt)


I agree.

*In fact, its in the new animal law that you HAVE to provide a suitable, safe and secure enviroment for your pet,* amongst other things but in my eyes you are not providing your dog with a safe and secure enviroment.

TBH i smell troll


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## huskiesaregreat (Sep 24, 2009)

whats the point in having a dog, if you just gonna leave it out in the cold? Okay some dogs love spending time outside, but even outside dogs love the option to come in and cuddle up with their owners in the warm and dry.

My huskies love it in the garden, but they are fence jumpers and i would never leave them in the garden without watching them like a hawk because they only have to see a cat on the fence and they try and jump at it mad

luckily my dogs have never killed anything, apart from a suicidal pigeon...

If you cannot adapt your life and home to a dog then maybe you should find the dog a loving home


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## huskiesaregreat (Sep 24, 2009)

what is a troll anyway lol


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

huskiesaregreat said:


> what is a troll anyway lol


A troll is a term for someone coming onto a forum just to stir up trouble! Like a thread similar to this and then sit back and watch the replies


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## Fyfer (Jan 23, 2010)

Can I point out here the the OP hasn't replied to a lot of the posts. Imagine you were he, reading all this judgment and criticism... there's not a lot of incentive to continue dialogue. And it's through dialogue that there's the hope of learning and changing.

What seems helpful are actual, specific suggestions, and sharing your own experiences. But without the judgment -- the judgment just makes it so hard for someone to take in what you are trying to say.

If I were OP, I'd find these kinds of comments helpful, as they convey information, suggestions, and experience. 


> it is actually legal for ANY farmer to SHOOT a dog on it's land if it is worrying sheep, and in lambing season (or when sheep r pregnant), all the dog needs to be doing is in the field, not even looking at the sheep.





> I also would not tether him it can lead to very stressed dog that can turn aggressive in the worst possibilty. It can also cause neck injuries.





> Have you ever considered a steel dog kennel, they are secure for dogs.





> You will need strong wooden panels or steel mesh. It will also need to be very high i would not make it any shorter than 8ft at the very very least.


Contrast these against messages of 'you are wrong, wrong, wrong'. No matter how much in the right we believe ourselves to be, our helpful ideas won't get through if the other person has shut down because of hearing that 'you are so wrong' message.

Now we're all free to choose either way to express ourselves. All I'm saying is one way of communicating has a much better chance of getting through than the other.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I was born and raised on a sheep farm, and during that time over 10 dogs were shot and killed for chasing the livestock. Its not always a quick death either. Shooting a target thats running all over the place is not easy.

We used to get a lot of travellers living illegally on the land, and they let their dogs roam free at all times. Sadly these dogs paid for human ignorance with their lives.

I witnessed one GSD being shot 4 times before it died.

As a dog owner it is your responsibility to maintain control of your dog at all times. You can do either by having a purposely built kennel with secure run, or by chaining your dog up in a long and secure line. Abit of stress is far kinder than a load of lead shot.

The chasing of livestock can cause injuries and early abortion due to stress. Not to mention your dog risks being kicked by chasing cattle. A blow from a cow can easily kill a dog, or caused internal injuries.

The lack of blood means nothing. My boys have had a couple of myxi bunnies over the years, and havent got a spot of blood on them, even though the body was ripped to shreds. I would work on the premise that it WAS your dog that killed the lamb. In which case its extremely important that your dog is prevented from doing this again.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Agree that lack of blood means nothing.

My dog and my friend's two dogs got a rabbit a while ago. You'd think they'd have torn it to shreds but in fact the only damage was a couple of spots of blood on its whiskers. To be honest, I think once it was dead they didn't have a clue what to do with it. There was no blood on any of them.


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## Leah84 (Jun 22, 2009)

sorry but i can`t believe anyone would allow their dog to roam free, i`d be up all night feeling sick with worry as to what the dog was doing and if it was ok. there`s a few free roaming dogs here and they drive me round the bend, i`m generally a friendly person but havign rubbish scattered everywhere and them running onto the road in front of the car is just too much, you don`t know what`ll make your neighbour tick over. as has been said before the sheep are his livelyhood so i`m pretty sure him losing money will be more important than his relationship with his neighbour


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## huskiesaregreat (Sep 24, 2009)

I would be worried sick too, and i love other animals too much to risk them getting eaten by my dogs


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## huskiesaregreat (Sep 24, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Agree that lack of blood means nothing.
> 
> My dog and my friend's two dogs got a rabbit a while ago. You'd think they'd have torn it to shreds but in fact the only damage was a couple of spots of blood on its whiskers. To be honest, I think once it was dead they didn't have a clue what to do with it. There was no blood on any of them.


My dog also got 2 rabbits, no blood or anything

They are good at washing themselves clean i am sure


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## SamP (Jan 24, 2010)

I had this issue with my terrier last year. Taxi was around live stock always ie cows, horses,sheep. He was a rescue dog never had any probs with him, he walked every day with us to feed the horses, this particular day he turned feral, got through my neighbouring farmers fence & mauled a lamb, ripped its throat out! My 16 year old son tried to get him back & he also turned on him. I eventually caught him and put him in his kennel. To me there was no choice an animal that kills another is a danger, so i called the vet to do the deed. when the vet came 40/50 min later the dog had licked him self clean no a trace of anything he was a blonde colour. We since found out that the dog was suffering a brain toumour which changed his personality altogether. A dog that has tasted blood like that will almost certainly do it again. I would agree with Leasedfor life and have a sample of his poop analysed, but please dont let your dog out to roam until u get the results. It would also be a good idea to know where he is 24/7. good luck.


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## mashabella (Oct 23, 2009)

Fyfer said:


> Can I point out here the the OP hasn't replied to a lot of the posts. Imagine you were he, reading all this judgment and criticism... there's not a lot of incentive to continue dialogue. And it's through dialogue that there's the hope of learning and changing.
> 
> What seems helpful are actual, specific suggestions, and sharing your own experiences. But without the judgment -- the judgment just makes it so hard for someone to take in what you are trying to say.
> 
> ...


well said. rep your way.


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