# Early Neutering



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I wanted to make a few comments about breeders' choices re EN without taking the 'other' thread off-track for the OP.

I get pretty fed up with hearing and reading comments, in relation to breeders who cannot or choose not to EN, that it's laziness or they're making excuses or that these breeders aren't somehow doing their best.

Speaking personally, though I know it applies to many other breeders also, it IS something I have given a lot of thought to over the last few years, weighing up the pros and cons, taking everything into account. The closest practice, with a vet experienced in EN, to me is 1.5 drive in good traffic. Would I be prepared for a 3+ hour round trip and finding something to do to amuse myself so that I didn't have to return home after dropping the kittens off in the morning making it 6+ hours driving? Yes, I'm prepared to do that. Do I believe that kittens bounce back very quickly after their op? Yes, I do. Do I think that EN has a detrimental effect upon growth/proper development? Probably not. Am I prepared to absorb all or part of the neutering cost within what I charge for a kitten? Again, yes. Do I feel I need to do all of that? No.

I have never sold a kitten that has been EN, neither have I ever sold a kitten, as a pet or otherwise, with a contract. I happen to trust the people I sell my kittens to. From the enquiries I receive, I decline a whole lot more than I welcome into my home to meet me and the cats & kittens. The chances of the kind of families I sell my kittens to suddenly turning into a 'BYB' or suddenly fancying 'just one litter' are slim to none, as is the chance of them deciding they want rid of the cat/kitten and advertising him/her for sale, neutered or otherwise.

I don't feel the need to gain peace of mind via EN; I have it anyway. For any breeder where the logistics of EN are difficult the simple answer is, if you have the slightest doubt about someone, don't sell them one of your kittens.


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## Felino (Jul 6, 2010)

It's not a laziness...It's an additional cost you have to cover if you decide to let your kittens go neutered 
Another thing is that you got about 50% less interest as soon as you inform people that you sell kittens neutered and that's NOT negotiable.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Felino said:


> It's not a laziness...It's an additional cost you have to cover if you decide to let your kittens go neutered
> Another thing is that you got about 50% less interest as soon as you inform people that you sell kittens neutered and that's NOT negotiable.


I'm very happy when people won't buy my kittens already neutered - I feel I've avoided selling to a potential BYB. I charge a bit more, not enough to completely cover the EN, but it gives me great peace of mind and that for me is priceless.

I wish I didn't have to do it - that I could absolutely trust kitten buyers to get their kittens neutered - but unfortunately that's not the case, and I've had perfectly decent sounding people drop me like a hot potato on being told their kitten will be neutered before they get her. Yes, these have all been people looking for a female kitten.

Lastly very, very occasionally things do go wrong when a kitten is neutered. I'd rather they went wrong before the kitten leaves me than 2-3 months down the line when their new family is deeply in love with them.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Should also mention that I drop my kittens off shortly before 10am and usually have them back home by 12am. I've had 5 kittens neutered each time, 5 boys the first and 3 boys 2 girls the second.


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## Felino (Jul 6, 2010)

My peace of mind is worth much more than few pounds for EN but I had a chance to meet few breeders who seems to be surprised when got messages from GCCF that someone tried to register kittens after girl sold by them as non active or when they found their grand kitties on Gumtree. 
All breeders are against BYB but for some reason don't want to make a basic step to stop or at least reduce this problem.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Felino said:


> All breeders are against BYB but for some reason don't want to make a basic step to stop or at least reduce this problem.


Or, as I said above, do not feel the need to take such a step.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

EN would give me peace of mind and is a kind of insurance policy. All it takes is that one person who thinks "why not ". I'm not someone who would let it go and would harp on it constantly so by ENing, the potential for this problem is eliminated.

That said, I have not neutered my kittens early- the main reason was because I was afraid it would be too much stress in a relatively short time (vaccinations at 9 and 12 weeks, early neutering at 13 weeks and leaving the nest at 14 weeks old). The peace of mind I get by early neutering will be replaced by the worry of a kitten getting FIP. My other reason is because as mentioned before, early neutering is just so expensive (149 for a girl,80 for a boy excluding transportation etc.) that even if I absorb half the cost (for my peace of mind; ) ), it still made my kittens very expensive. It was not easy finding new owners for my last batch due to this (although I did succeed in the end but then decided not to early neuter for the first reason). 

I think of it very simply - if a kitten owner breeds without your consent, you'll be the one who lives with it. If your kitten dies from FIP due all the stress factors including EN, you live with it. It's not really anyone's business.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I do like the idea on early neutering however I wish it was more widely available and easier to access im sure in time its going to be but atm its one hell of a head ache trying to find a EN vet local or even local ish.

As I said earlier putting my tiny babies through a long journey after a op is not something I personally am prepared to do.


We all want whats best for our babies and should accept how others choose to breed with out the need to bash others for their choices.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

I neuter at five months, I'd like to wait until they are fully mature but I don't want them to start spraying. My cat never goes outside and has no desire to do so. I have a bengal (male) and female siamese, she was done very early because she came into heat at 4 months.

As far as mine go outside is in their window boxes. It has a kitty door and they can go in and out, nothing can get in and they can't get out. I have two but of course they both want to use the same one. This is a kitty window box, they are called a cat veranda


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I wonder if it is long standing breeders who are more confident with their choice of new 'parents' who do not feel the need to early neuter - other than those in other countries where it is more the norm.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

I neuter early because I don't want them to get into the habit of spraying and I feel there are to many animals dying in shelters for lack of a home that I am not going to add to the problem.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

lymorelynn said:


> I wonder if it is long standing breeders who are more confident with their choice of new 'parents' who do not feel the need to early neuter - other than those in other countries where it is more the norm.


Not sure lynn,

iv only been breeding 5 years and I feel confident im vetting new owners well. Using google as my friend and keeping in with the know with other breeders not much goes un noticed.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

I'm not a breeder ( say that a lot) did breed my Gccf active cat once ( say that every now an again) 

OS I adore your kittens, they are truly stunning but as I buyer I'm very put off by breeders that think because you mentioned that the female kitten they wanted would be Early neutered, they change their mind because they are BYB. Some people are like me and want to do such an invasive procedure themselves! 

I got one of my kittens from a lady that used to breed and EN her ragdolls. my Millie was in her first litter of Siamese. The owner of the stud had given her an active queen so was very involved with this litter. When I was driving down to meet this kitten with this stud owner. She mentioned that earlier that week the (new) breeder had discussed EN with her. I tell you my stomach dropped. Not because I had wanted to breed Millie, but the thought of a 10 week old having the procedure! 

I know they bounce back and the incursion site is barely noticeable, I am just put off . If it becomes as common as routine injections then I'll embrace it, it's not though and I'll continue to seek out breeders that don't.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I know a lot of older breeders had problems moving with the times, but did begin to EN and haven't looked back, they wouldn't consider doing things the old way now.

We also have neutering laws in some states, all kittens must be done before adoption whether that's registered breeder, byb, rescue, pet owner with a litter. Though breeders and rescues have neutered long before any laws.

Kitten buyers expect them to come with all work done. I drive further for the vet I want to use, kittens are not so previous that they're bothered by driving. 

I hope the UK catches up with other countries some day soon.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> I know a lot of older breeders had problems moving with the times, but did begin to EN and haven't looked back, they wouldn't consider doing things the old way now.
> 
> We also have neutering laws in some states, all kittens must be done before adoption whether that's registered breeder, byb, rescue, pet owner with a litter. Though breeders and rescues have neutered long before any laws.
> 
> ...


I was talking to a friend who lives your way on,she breeds BSH she told me that even Australia there is problem with byb,so there must be some people not neutering.

How do they even put the law into practice breeding is done behind closed doors so how do they enforce it?


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

add the price of the spay or neuter to the price of the kitten, that way you can be sure they will not be byb. Personally I"d have no problem with paying extra to have the animal already done. Something I wouldn't have to think about doing later.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Linda2147 said:


> add the price of the spay or neuter to the price of the kitten, that way you can be sure they will not be byb. Personally I"d have no problem with paying extra to have the animal already done. Something I wouldn't have to think about doing later.


I honestly don't think if I increased the price of my kittens that I would actually sell them.

Self breeders may beable to make this work as the market for them is a lot bigger compared to colourpointed what I breed.

This isn't the problem for me however,id be happy to pay for the neuter from my own pocket.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

when I got my bengal I had to sign an agreement to have him neutered by six months. I would have done it anyway as it was a moot point. Then I had to show prof he was done before I got his papers. Actually I didn't care about getting papers, I wasn't showing, or breeding and he can't read so the papers are basically useless to me. But I had him done at 5 months. I'm going to your vet to have it done for $80, I had the pre blood work done to make sure he'd be ok under anesthesia and my total bill was 307. Far as I'm concerned it's money well spent.


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## tochica (May 6, 2013)

MollyMilo said:


> Some people are like me and want to do such an invasive procedure themselves!


I honestly don't understand this at all. I've had a grand total of two cats in my life and one got pulmonary edema after being spayed. Even if this has never happened I wouldn't like to go through all the worrying about the ops ever again. My point is that EN should be nothing but convenient for the buyer.

This said I totally understand why spaying/ castrating a 2-3 month old baby feels wrong but until there is data pointing it's harmful my believes are it's more beneficial than not. I am not 100% sure in my believes though. 

Where I live there is no EN available. There are plenty of byb and strays though. There are unbelievable number of outrages adds online. Example - 'I'm selling 6 weeks pregnant Persian, selling her as I am _dealing_ with BSHs now'.

Saying all this I don't think EN is the absolute answer that will fix it all (far from it), but I totally agree buyers, breeders and vets should live in the now. The procedure should be available, the breeders should assess the risk (depending on the region) and the buyers should keep themselves informed and understand why their chosen breeder opted or didn't for an EN.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

I have the bengal and also a blue(lilac) point siamese.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

tochica said:


> I honestly don't understand this at all. I've had a grand total of two cats in my life and one got pulmonary edema after being spayed. Even if this has never happened I wouldn't like to go through all the worrying about the ops ever again. My point is that EN should be nothing but convenient for the buyer.
> 
> This said I totally understand why spaying/ castrating a 2-3 month old baby feels wrong but until there is data pointing it's harmful my believes are it's more beneficial than not. I am not 100% sure in my believes though.
> 
> ...


I think if I had viewed my kitten after the neutering, then yes I'd be relieved it was all over and I could live happily ever after with my cat. Collect the kitten papers, insurance pay the money all done and dusted.

Usually though, you see the kitten before hand. I think it's the thought


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Linda2147 said:


> I have the bengal and also a blue(lilac) point siamese.


Blue or lilac?


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

looks blue to me but my vet said lilac


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## tochica (May 6, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> ...
> 
> How do they even put the law into practice breeding is done behind closed doors so how do they enforce it?


I suppose if it's true the buyer expects them to come with 'all the work done' then the battle is almost won.


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## tochica (May 6, 2013)

MollyMilo said:


> I think if I had viewed my kitten after the neutering, then yes I'd be relieved it was all over and I could live happily ever after with my cat. Collect the kitten papers, insurance pay the money all done and dusted.
> 
> Usually though, you see the kitten before hand. I think it's the thought


I guess you have a point there. I'd still prefer to have it done at the breeder's but I would understand if someone for instance say trusts their vet better.

I probably shouldn't comment as I doubt I will ever buy a cat.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Years ago I EN a litter of male kittens. They were 16 weeks old I think. I don't really remember much about it so it must have been uneventful. However I have found it impossible to find a vet who will EN now. I've rung round and got the standard 6 months quoted. Even vets that are on the EN websites don't seem to do it. I'm not prepared to drag a litter of young kittens hours to a vet who will neuter them.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> I was talking to a friend who lives your way on,she breeds BSH she told me that even Australia there is problem with byb,so there must be some people not neutering.
> 
> How do they even put the law into practice breeding is done behind closed doors so how do they enforce it?


Some, means not all. There are some states without laws (& those with are fairly recent), byb issues with ragdolls and bengals, no problems with Brits and of course as in many countries an overpopulation of moggies.

How could people sell kittens behind closed doors?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't have the number of kittens I've bred to hand but in all my decades of breeding I have never had a problem with a pet owner breeding from them. I admit there may be the odd one I don't know about but if so it was in the distant past, before the days when EN was even thought of so it wouldn't have made any difference. Since the advent of email I do know all my pet kittens have been neutered by the responsible owners I chose for them. My peace of mind involves consideration of many more factors than neutering.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Someone said they would be put out by being told their kitten would be neutered before they got it. But would they pretty much put the phone down? Most of my kitten owners made no comment, a few were pleased, one looked into it on the Internet. I can't think of any reason for abruptly finishing the phone call on being told the kitten will be neutered than that they wanted to breed from it.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lymorelynn said:


> I wonder if it is long standing breeders who are more confident with their choice of new 'parents' who do not feel the need to early neuter - other than those in other countries where it is more the norm.


Maybe more longstanding breeders are more set in their ways!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> Some, means not all. There are some states without laws (& those with are fairly recent), byb issues with ragdolls and bengals, no problems with Brits and of course as in many countries an overpopulation of moggies.
> 
> How could people sell kittens behind closed doors?


I said breeding was done behind closed doors which it is,the selling, well you dont have to let authorities know do you? I can see how the registered kittens can be monitored but if someone isnt doing things by the book so to speak in the area with laws how do they enforce it? Do they trawl the pet sites,do they wait for someone to report it to them??


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Maybe more longstanding breeders are more set in their ways!


I honestly don't think that's the case. In my experience it's long established breeders who started the practice here in the UK. I'm not against it but I do think it's an individual decision based on many factors. I've lived in Australia and can quite understand someone there thinking an hour each way to a vet is no problem. I currently live in rural UK where the state of the roads is appalling and getting worse. It isn't the distance I'd have to travel which bothers me at all, it's what I'd be subjecting the kittens to during that journey which stops me. If my own local vet (17 miles and around 35 minutes away on a good day) would EN then I'd do so in a heartbeat.


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## Squeaks (Oct 16, 2014)

From a buyers point of view, I'd never even heard of EN until I came on this forum. My previous experience was with buying pedigree dogs, where in fact the opposite was true - we had to sign a contract to say we *wouldn't* neuter before he was 18 months, as research had shown EN could lead to developmental (both physical and emotional) issues in large, slow-maturing breeds like his (Golden Retriever).

So when I heard about EN in kittens I assumed it would have a similar detrimental effect on their growth or development, but it appears this isn't the case.

If our breeder had said the kittens would come EN that would be great as far as I am concerned, although neutering wasn't an issue for us anyway as no way would we want unneutered male cats in the house.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Linda2147 said:


> looks blue to me but my vet said lilac


Photo please - put it on a different thread so as not to derail this one  but we need to judge the colour. My own vet wouldn't know a blue from a lilac 
I didn't mean to imply that older breeders are set in their ways :O I'm not sure myself where I stand on this - I may be one of the older generation but have only been breeding for the past 5 years. I feel confident in my choice of buyers and do reject many in the early stages of enquiry. My vet will neuter at 16 weeks if I want it done but I think at the moment I am happy with the way I do things.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'll add to my list the implication that, as an older breeder, I find it difficult to move with the times. I'm 55 not 105 and still mentally capable of making informed decisions.

To repeat myself, I would have no objection (quite the opposite) to early neutering IF I had a suitable practice closer to my home and IF, as do a few fortunate breeders it would seem, I was able to collect them within a very short space of time following surgery.

I've discussed the subject with my own vet on two occasions and he's currently not prepared to EN. I've also spoken to the practice who do early neuter. They are are large chain offering low cost services (I used them once for kitten vaccinations and wouldn't do so again) but I was curious enough to ask. As with most practices, animals undergoing surgery would need to be dropped off at around 8.30am and be collected from mid to late afternoon.

Why on Earth would I subject my kittens to a relatively long trip in the car, surgery, and being sat, without the benefit of being fully vaccinated, all day long in close proximity to sick cats... when I don't actually feel the need to EN anyway?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> <snip>
> 
> Why on Earth would I subject my kittens to a relatively long trip in the car, surgery, and being sat, without the benefit of being fully vaccinated, all day long in close proximity to sick cats... when I don't actually feel the need to EN anyway?


I drop mine off just before 10am and collect by 12am. They are neutered after their second vaccination so have some immunity, and she doesn't have sick cats in the surgery. I've been the only client the two times I've taken them along.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

The main reason why I early neuter is, having done some help in shelters and with homeless cats, I would never want to leave anything to chance. My kittens will not contribute to cat overpopulation. I don't believe even the best psychologist could read people so thorougly to be 100% sure of whether or not someone will turn around and heck, naivelly listen to their vet telling them "it's good if a cat has at least one litter before neutering". , or a kitten already in heat might escape out (we know how dedicated cats in heat can be!). These people are not neccessarily BYBs with bad intentions all along (to avoid these I am sure breeders screen pet buyers carefully enough). They can be good people who just listen to the wrong advice or do a mistake. I personally feel like no screening you could do beforehand is 100%.









(I am not familiar with the #adoptdontshop propaganda, however I do agree with what's written)


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> I drop mine off just before 10am and collect by 12am. They are neutered after their second vaccination so have some immunity, and she doesn't have sick cats in the surgery. I've been the only client the two times I've taken them along.


It's a perfect situation, and you're very fortunate. I have to say though, it's a very unusual practice indeed never to have sick cats as temporary in-patients - unless your vet arranges things that way for you which, again, makes you fortunate.

My own vet has a small'ish (he's the only vet bar the one on duty on my vet's only day off) but popular practice in a small, local town and invariably there are a number of other feline patients. The consultation period ends at lunchtime when surgeries begin and, as such, non emergency surgery (such as spays, dentals, etc) will often be pushed back to make way for those needing quick attention - and in cases of dire emergency booked, non-essential morning consultations would be cancelled altogether.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

I've never early spayed, having always regarded it as too big surgery for a baby. A while back I asked my vet about it as I'd noticed more and more other breeders doing it, and wanted her professional opinion, which was not to as long as I could trust the people they were going home to. And to be honest, if I thought early neutering was the only way to stop my kittens being bred from I'd not be letting them go to that family. On a previous thread I think someone said that their vet would do early neutering for the CPL, but only do private neutering at 2kg weight as it was less risky. Surely that implies that it's how upset they think the owner will be to lose the cat that determines when they neuter, not how good it is for the animal concerned? I appreciate that in a rescue situation losing a few under anaesthetic is "better" overall (not for the individual kittens) than allowing accidental pregnancies to happen in cats they have rehomed, but surely for pedigree cats it isn't necessary to put what is a very young kitten through a very big procedure if the breeder and new owner have any sort of relationship at all? Surely "getting a feel" for the new owner is vital for it to have a happy future, and breeders shouldn't have to neuter early as insurance against being lied to. Most idiots you can weed out in the first minute of telephone call before they ever set foot through your door (like the person who wanted a Siamese "because they have blue eyes, which will match my husky's" I think not!).


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

A vet declining to do EN on private owned cats and doing it for the homeless or ferals implies a lack of experience or skills and I would never let them neuter my kittens anyway. Young kittens are not at a higher risk of having complications during surgery (unless a vet does not have proper skills yet and is using them as a learning tool). If a vet is not confident in their skills enough to do EN then he probably shouldn't (yet).


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

HeartofClass said:


> A vet declining to do EN on private owned cats and doing it for the homeless or ferals implies a lack of experience or skills and I would never let them neuter my kittens anyway. Young kittens are not at a higher risk of having complications during surgery (unless a vet does not have proper skills yet and is using them as a learning tool). If a vet is not confident in their skills enough to do EN then he probably shouldn't (yet).


Of course they are at higher risk of complications and there will be different protocols in many respects for neutering a very young kitten. One only needs to read Langford's "neutering pet cats at 4 months of less" to understand that. I don't see how a vet refusing to privately EN when s/he routinely does the same for homeless/ferals could in any way be construed as illustrating a lack of skills or knowledge.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Right, I am sure that one UK practice has done better research and more S/Ns on young kittens than the rest of the world to know this. Sorry but I find it absolutely appaling that a vet would consider the life of a feral cat less-worthy than a private own cat, which is what such practices imply. A vet confident in his EN skills will be able to operate all cats, disregarding if they are pedigree or ferals. The procedure is not any different.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

I have great faith in my vets (all of them, plus their vet nurses too), not a case of "practising" but as they explained it to me, a younger, and smaller, cat is less able to flush the anaesthetic from its system post - op, and it's harder to keep their body temperature stable. Hence why vets set a weight, not age limit. A big male Maine Coon kitten could weigh a lot more at 10 weeks than a much older female Siamese. Each breeder has to weigh up the pros and cons, following the best advice of a vet they trust, and for me, for my Siamese, early neutering is still a no -no. For a charity homing hundreds of cats I could understand the case for early neutering, but I spend a lot of time with my kittens' new owners before they go to their homes, and on balance it isn't worth the risk. Pro - it will stop them being bred from if I have very badly misjudged their new owners (bearing in mind I discuss active/inactive registers, so I would have to have sold a kitten on the pet only register to someone who I had already discussed future breeding with, and believed they were after a pet only). Con - I'd have to persuade my vets to do it AGAINST THEIR OWN ADVICE, and possibly lose a much loved and wanted kitten. Why risk it if you don't HAVE to?


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Like I said I would not early neuter a cat at a practice where the vets believe that small kittens have a bigger chance of dying during or post EN, either, as I would not trust such a vet to operate my kittens.  
No one is persuading anyone to EN their cats but I would appreciate if this can go the other way around as well. Implies of those of us who do so risking any more than those whose kittens are neutered (presumabely) at their new owners' later are a reach.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

HeartofClass said:


> Right, I am sure that one UK practice has done better research and more S/Ns on young kittens than the rest of the world to know this. Sorry but I find it absolutely appaling that a vet would consider the life of a feral cat less-worthy than a private own cat, which is what such practices imply. A vet confident in his EN skills will be able to operate all cats, disregarding if they are pedigree or ferals. The procedure is not any different.


I'm unsure what you mean by 'one UK practice'. Langford are part of Bristol University, School of Veterinary Sciences - world renown for their research and services.

The procedure for early neutering IS quite different. Not one, of course, that is beyond the capabilities of a vet who is well taught and practiced in such. But different nonetheless.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I never said that EN is not different to 'regular' neutering. I said that the procedure on feral cats is no different than on pedigree cats. Of course EN is different to neutering later, but that does not mean it's 'riskier'.

I would say it is debatable whether they are "world renown". Can you quote the part where they state that EN is riskier than neutering later? Because I went to check the article that you referred to, admittely not thorougly, but all I saw was:



> It has been shown that neutering at
> four months instead of the traditional
> six months is associated with
> significantly lower
> ...


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## urbantigers (Apr 13, 2014)

As a buyer, I would consider a kitten being neutered before I bought him as an advantage. There's no question of my not neutering a kitten, but it would be so much easier if it was already done. Even though it's a simple procedure we all worry when they go to the vet so it would save me that. Then if you are introducing to another cat things can be set back a bit when the kitten returns wearing that well known fragrance "eau de vet"  So I would be all for it and happy to pay the extra.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I find it absolutely appaling that a vet would consider the life of a feral cat less-worthy than a private own cat,


I'm pretty sure it's got nothing to do with considering the kitten more or less 'worthy' at all. The risks a vet considers will not be confined to clinical ones.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Think this is the Langford article referred to:

http://www.langfordvets.co.uk/sites/default/files/Neutering article revised 300413.pdf

Their Feline Update site looks interesting as well:

Feline Update | Langford Veterinary Services


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Think this is the Langford article referred to:

http://www.langfordvets.co.uk/sites/default/files/Neutering article revised 300413.pdf

Their Feline Update site looks interesting as well:

Feline Update | Langford Veterinary Services


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

HeartofClass said:


> I never said that EN is not different to 'regular' neutering. I said that the procedure on feral cats is no different than on pedigree cats. Of course EN is different to neutering later, but that does not mean it's 'riskier'.
> 
> I would say it is debatable whether they are "world renown". Can you quote the part where they state that EN is riskier than neutering later? Because I went to check the article that you referred to, admittely not thorougly, but all I saw was:


We seem to be talking at cross purposes. You said, "Young kittens are not at a higher risk of having complications during surgery". I simply pointed out that they ARE at higher risk. Nowhere have I said my personal opinion is that early neutering, in itself, is riskier than neutering at the traditional age, nor did I say that the Langford article stated this. In fact, the Langford paper supports it, as do I.

The simple fact is that perioperative care for paediatric animals IS different and comes with its own risk factors. Paediatric kittens have a higher risk of hypothermia; are more prone to hypoglycaemia; kittens under 14 weeks have immature kidney/liver function which means that anaesthetic drugs take longer to be metabolized/excreted and paediatric animals require much closer monitoring under anaesthesia for hypoventilation.

To repeat myself yet again - none of which is beyond the capability of a suitably experienced vet. You can't have it both ways - if EN didn't come with some special challenges, it wouldn't require the need for a suitably experienced vet to undertake it.

But if you don't accept Langford's reputation then there's probably little point in us even pursuing this conversation.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

EN in itself is overall less risky than "traditional" neutering. There are pros and cons to everything but you have to weigh out all the risks and factors. I still did not see the stated risk factors regarding during surgery you mentioned in the article you referred to. And yes, I do believe there are many clinics with a better reputation worldwide and consequently better credibility than Langford, however I will accept that this is a mostly UK based forum. 

Actually, I feel like this whole thread was kind of started because you felt the need to defend your decision to not EN as some of us who are "pro-EN" have made a few comments regarding this in the other thread. Neither side of the page should feel like they need to defent their choice to do or not do EN.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's hardly surprising experienced breeders feel the need to defend themselves when their choice, in a matter which is not directly related to health or welfare, results in them being attacked. This whole debate on neutering is never about whether it should be done, only when and then the reason most often given for EN is about a lack of trust in the kitten buyers. If I could more conveniently EN I would because I believe it stresses kittens less to be neutered while still in the birth home and recover amid their litter mates. That said, the cons of the journey I (and they) would have to make and the fact that it wouldn't be a vet I know well cancels out the pros for the moment.

Your comments that it's a perfectly safe procedure when carried out by a well trained vet are extremely valid. UK trained vets are not well trained in this procedure on very young kittens but their experience is growing. It has been gradually introduced into this country by vets from elsewhere, the first I knew of was Australian. In reality my vet is effectively practising on homeless kittens as she does neuter early for the CPL but won't yet for privately owned cats. Part of me goes along with your distaste and part of me is happy enough to wait until she feels experienced enough to offer the service to the public.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> I drop mine off just before 10am and collect by 12am. They are neutered after their second vaccination so have some immunity, and she doesn't have sick cats in the surgery. I've been the only client the two times I've taken them along.


Your very lucky OS that you vet can complete a whole litter in that amount of time thats really quick.

I took a adult to be neutered a few weeks ago and i dropped the cat off at 10.30,they didnt call me to collect my cat untill 2.30 later that day.



HeartofClass said:


> EN in itself is overall less risky than "traditional" neutering. There are pros and cons to everything but you have to weigh out all the risks and factors. I still did not see the stated risk factors regarding during surgery you mentioned in the article you referred to. And yes, I do believe there are many clinics with a better reputation worldwide and consequently better credibility than Langford, however I will accept that this is a mostly UK based forum.
> 
> Actually, *I feel like this whole thread was kind of started because you felt the need to defend your decision to not EN as some of us who are "pro-EN" have made a few comments regarding this in the other thread. Neither side of the page should feel like they need to defent their choice to do or not do EN.*




I think that might have been me that said something alone those lines.

I dont see how we arnt also 'pro-EN' either we are all saying we would like to EN. But just not willing to travel long distances to do so thats how i feel anyway.


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## Linda2147 (Sep 26, 2013)

I feel unless you are a breeder all animals should be spayed or neutered. There are to many animals dying in shelters because they have no home that it should be mandatory to have them fixed. If people can't afford the surgery they can't afford to care properly for the animal. And its the ones that don't spay or neuter don't keep up with regular health checkups and shots. they want the animal just for how much money it can generate for them and when they get old and no longer able to breed the animal is dumped to anyone that will take it or just abandoned. 

All of my animals are done, cats before six months old and dogs I wait a bit longer, after the second heat. But they are not allowed to just breed at will, I have never had an accidental litter or any litters at all. I like to wait longer for the dog because I want them fully mature before doing it. But this is just my opinion. 

My breeder kind of hesitated when I told her I'd have my bental done but not at two months old. I had her call my vet and he told her "give her anything she wants" all her animals are done and you won't find a better home for them so she altered the contract agreeing to let me have the cat and have him neutered by six months old. I did it at five months. Then send her the neuter certificate to show her it was done.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

HeartofClass said:


> EN in itself is overall less risky than "traditional" neutering. There are pros and cons to everything but you have to weigh out all the risks and factors. I still did not see the stated risk factors regarding during surgery you mentioned in the article you referred to. And yes, I do believe there are many clinics with a better reputation worldwide and consequently better credibility than Langford, however I will accept that this is a mostly UK based forum.
> 
> Actually, I feel like this whole thread was kind of started because you felt the need to defend your decision to not EN as some of us who are "pro-EN" have made a few comments regarding this in the other thread. Neither side of the page should feel like they need to defent their choice to do or not do EN.


The risks aren't associated directly to neutering/spaying, they are associated with a paediatric animal undergoing surgery. I thought I had made that clear along with the fact that I am PRO early neutering.

I started this thread for two reasons, the first being my annoyance at frequently being referred to as a lazy, excuse making breeder who couldn't be bothered to do her best and have since also had to point out that, as an older breeder, neither have I reached the state of decrepitude where I cannot use my remaining brain cells to make a properly thought out decision.

The second reason for my post was to point out that whilst many of us may be in favour of early neutering it isn't possible or even advisable for the reasons I have already explained.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Felino said:


> It's not a laziness...It's an additional cost you have to cover if you decide to let your kittens go neutered
> Another thing is that you got about 50% less interest as soon as you inform people that you sell kittens neutered and that's NOT negotiable.


Not forgetting that, if it isn't laziness, it's because I don't want to spend the money on EN or that half of my kitten enquiries will drift away when I mention EN.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

I early neutered my first Devon kittens last year - my vet is a 15minute drive and has bucket loads of EN experience with the Celia Hammond trust so easy decision for me- not sure how I would feel about it if it wasn't my vet or she was less experienced in the procedure


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Your very lucky OS that you vet can complete a whole litter in that amount of time thats really quick.
> 
> I took a adult to be neutered a few weeks ago and i dropped the cat off at 10.30,they didnt call me to collect my cat untill 2.30 later that day.
> 
> ...


The boys must take all of 10 minutes apiece. We weigh them all and deal with cards jointly when they are admitted. It's a very small practise which probably helps, and she has been doing EN for a local rescue for years. I don't know what the times would be with an adult, but my kittens are fairly lively when I pick them up.

I know I am very lucky with her because of the care she gave one of my adults a year ago when he was having problems with constipation.

As it happens she's nearer than my other vet but it's a wiggly journey over a range of hills, the other one is further but along a straight road.

I would have been willing to go quite some distance to get my kittens neutered. Once they are tucked up in the large carrier or a couple of smaller ones they travel just fine, unlike a neutered girl I used to have who would complain loudly for up to a couple of hours that she wasn't in a Rolls Royce and so on. I leave the mum at home. On the way back they are on the sleepy side so don't complain.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Once they are tucked up in the large carrier or a couple of smaller ones they travel just fine, unlike a neutered girl I used to have* who would complain loudly for up to a couple of hours that she wasn't in a Rolls Royce* and so on. I leave the mum at home. On the way back they are on the sleepy side so don't complain.


:laugh: 

OS, may I just ask how old your kittens are when they are neutered and what their weight is?

I definitely appreciate the fact that I breed a rather large breed, my kittens have just been neutered last week at exactly 12 weeks and two days of age, smallest was about 1.5kg and biggest almost 1.8kg. The vets I go to do EN at 1kg and up and have to admit I am happy that my kittens reach that weight quite soon. I heard that some Siamese breeders keep their kittens up until 16 weeks precisely because they are too small to be EN earlier.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Someone said they would be put out by being told their kitten would be neutered before they got it. But would they pretty much put the phone down? Most of my kitten owners made no comment, a few were pleased, one looked into it on the Internet. I can't think of any reason for abruptly finishing the phone call on being told the kitten will be neutered than that they wanted to breed from it.


I would hope that the advertisement would make it clear that you early neuter before it gets that far, or at least on the website. I wouldn't put the phone down no, I might start mumbling my apologies and close the call down though.

Can I ask you this now. If a person rings up and you say you early neuter, would you quickly end the conversation if the person would prefer to do it themselves? 
Perhaps a previous kitten buyer of yours or one recommended by a breeder friend?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

MollyMilo said:


> I would hope that the advertisement would make it clear that you early neuter before it gets that far, or at least on the website. I wouldn't put the phone down no, I might start mumbling my apologies and close the call down though.
> 
> Can I ask you this now. If a person rings up and you say you early neuter, would you quickly end the conversation if the person would prefer to do it themselves?
> Perhaps a previous kitten buyer of yours or one recommended by a breeder friend?


It does but people don't read most of it! And I wouldn't sell a kitten to someone wanting to neuter themselves, but I wouldn't put the phone down on them either. I'd be very happy to discuss it with them.

The only unneutered kittens I would sell would be for breeding, to people I know.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

HeartofClass said:


> OS, may I just ask how old your kittens are when they are neutered and what their weight is?
> 
> I definitely appreciate the fact that I breed a rather large breed, my kittens have just been neutered last week at exactly 12 weeks and two days of age, smallest was about 1.5kg and biggest almost 1.8kg. The vets I go to do EN at 1kg and up and have to admit I am happy that my kittens reach that weight quite soon. I heard that some Siamese breeders keep their kittens up until 16 weeks precisely because they are too small to be EN earlier.


Do you know I'm not sure! But about 1kg I think. They are just over 12 weeks old and are Orientals.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I am happy to early neuter.

All of the risks associated with paedriatic surgery mentioned - hypoglycaemia, hypothermia etc - are valid, but predictable. Our protocols take into account these factors and, touch wood, we've never had any complications so far.

The kittens tend to bounce back quicker from the surgery than the older cats.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> I am happy to early neuter.
> 
> All of the risks associated with paedriatic surgery mentioned - hypoglycaemia, hypothermia etc - are valid, but predictable. Our protocols take into account these factors and, touch wood, we've never had any complications so far.
> 
> The kittens tend to bounce back quicker from the surgery than the older cats.


Can you please move to south yorkshire :ihih:


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

the problem i have with it all is that is seems, more often than not, those who are THE MOST against non purebred registered cats being bred (no matter what the reason) are those that don't EN - against as in incredibly judgmental, nasty even to posters on here (like the other thread's OP, case in point).

typo many quick to slam her for being either aBYB, or her breeder was a BYB, or that the kittens she might have will end up in a BYB.

yet there is NOTHING stopping ANYONE'S kittens that have been sold NON neutered, to ending up in the same situation.

that you 'screen' your clients doesn't matter.

where i live, there was a massive police bust into a hideous dog baiting set up. dozens and dozens of cats and other animals found, severely wounded and kept in cages, to use as bait for dog fighting.

and guess who was going around and collecting the cats to be used as bait? the gang had got some older woman, very good at playing the part of the 'little ol' grandma' who 'reduced' these unwanted cats - taking them off people's hands, and straight to the gang to use for dog bait.

sure, some might be able to travel across true country to collect a non-desexed pet as per contract - but isn't that putting the poor cat 'under stress' of a long drive? the same arguments used for why they never neutered the cat before rehoming it.

and how can you keep track of ALL kittens sold??? HOW??? people who want to bred and make money out of your kitten will disappear. you wont find them.

id also be interested in knowing - honestly - if cost doesn't come into it at all- to sell a cat that has been fixed, registered - would mean prices have to go up - maybe the kittens would sell and then there would be unwanted kittens.

*so how many is too many?* would you (as in the breeder) lose sleep if one of your kittens ended up being bred from? what if it was 'just one litter'? would you sleep at night cos 'its only one cat' or 'only one litter'?

if so, then why slam someone for wanting to breed their cat? especially when its a purebred (or a cross breed). can't use the moggie argument of 'there too many moggies and no one wants them' - add in a mix of something and they will sell.

*bottom line* those in glasshouses should not throw stones./ if you don't 'do it perfect' (which face it - early neutering or hey, maybe not rehoming the kitten until it can be desexed - if thats at 5 months, so be it; would be the ULTIMATE ethical standard of ANY breeder) - then i don't think you have the right to be so judgmental on anyones's practices. not when the cat isn't being harmed. not when the owner is responsible and doing all the same things a breeder would be doing. its not right and its not fair.

time and time again - certain breeders on here are aghast and in horror when someone else wants to breed their cat. too quick to throw all the same old scare stories into it 'its dangerous!' your cat's kittens can die! there's the chance of emergency vet care / dead / deformed kittens! don't do it!!! yet the same people happily breed their own cat. at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if its a 'pedigree' or a moggie - if the risks are THAT bad, then why does ANYONE do it????


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

and just before i get off my hobby horse .one more rant 

don't get me started on the 'i want to breed to better the breed' - huh? 'better the breed'? as in what? get rid of the genetic conditions or inherited diseases the breed has? maybe they shouldn't be bred from at all if there is that risk:sosp:

or is it to 'make it look good' so it fits a particular style of look so it can win at shows?

how many litters of kittens does it take to active that success?:sosp:

how is it any more honorable to breed and breed and breed to 'better the breed' or to achieve personal goals of certain colors / temperament, because its registered to a cat fancy body and more money is spent breeding? :sosp:

sorry, i really don't get it not if the same people who are so admanant that there are 'too many unwanted kittens out there' - to breed, if ANYONE breeds from a cat, purebred or not - then aren't you actually still adding to the problem..?????? :sosp:

it doesn't matter if the cat is a breed that is fancy - reality is - if there were not dozens of 'fancy' breeds to buy, then those wanting a cat would go and get a moggie from the reduce shelter.

i don't think its fair to preach to anyone about not breeding or how unethical it is to breed, when if, you break it all down into black and white - it is no more ethical to breed and create kittens in a world where there are already _hundreds of millions of unwanted cats already. _

*bottom line - perhaps :roll eyes: its no less selfish to breed any cat, pedigree or not.* and i wouldn't even be mildly agitated about this at all, if it weren't for the very very dogmatic views of SOME on here about this - looking down their noses at those 'beneath them' who don't' breed according to THEIR standards, and having all the justifications in the world as to why THEY are breeding and its ok, and nothing wrong with it at all.

(the same people no doubt who jumped in and gave that new poster - 3 posts in total - and a bunch of red rep - she wasn't even saying anything remotely trolling or terrible - you should be ashamed of yourselves )

ok, that is now out of my system..

carry on, as you were


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Really MM88 :Yawn: :Yawn:

If breeding winds you up so much I'd suggest you avoid the breeding section of the forum, instead of trawling it to find a thread where you can start argument. You've made your feelings quite clear on a number of occasions.


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## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

moggie14 said:


> Really MM88 :Yawn: :Yawn:
> 
> If breeding winds you up so much I'd suggest you avoid the breeding section of the forum, instead of trawling it to find a thread where you can start argument. You've made your feelings quite clear on a number of occasions.


we are all entitled to have our opinion. I guarantee Im not the only one who thinks the things i put out there.

(as i keep saying i am NOT against breeders per se - i do remain mixed as to how i feel about breeding however - but it is the holier than thou and utter hypocrisy of SOME on here that is irritating )


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> that you 'screen' your clients doesn't matter.....................................
> and guess who was going around and collecting the cats to be used as bait? the gang had got some older woman, very good at playing the part of the 'little ol' grandma' who 'reduced' these unwanted cats - taking them off people's hands, and straight to the gang to use for dog bait.


Doesn't that rather imply that in these cases there was no screening? Did she visit at least twice? Was she required to give an address and landline phone number at the first visit? Did she pay a deposit by cheque or bank transfer thereby giving the seller time and the wherewithal to check she was who she said she was? If you think screening is simply a matter of asking a few questions you are being very naïve.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh dear someone has far too much time on there hands don't they ..


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

Very interesting discussion 

As an owner, and having recently purchased a Persian kitten , I did ask the question re whether he would be EN. To be honest, I'm not even sure where I stand on it, but I was a little disappointed that my breeder doesn't EN. For me, the stress and worry of taking them to the vets for an anaesthetic is unbearable and I would've been pleased to be saved anxiety. I do however respect my breeders reasons for not doing so


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## MinkyMadam (Apr 12, 2014)

Forgive me for resurrecting an old thread but I just wanted to add my own experience and perspective to this issue. Some of you may have seen my threads about Biba in the 'health' and 'cat chat' sections. http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/biba-has-metaphyseal-osteopathy.419392/
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/feeling-anxious-about-biba.419904/

I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that research indicates that early neutering is a risk factor in Biba's condition, and she was spayed at around 12-13 weeks. Clearly I can't establish that this was a causal factor in her case, but even any remote possibility has meant that I personally cannot support this practice. Having seen the pain and suffering that this condition has caused my girl has been absolutely horrendous, and I would hate to think there is a possibility it may have been caused, or contributed to, by this procedure.

I know that there are strong supporters of early neutering on this forum, and I have no wish to enter into any argument with anyone, and will not do so. I just wanted to contribute my own perspective.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's so sad when the individual rare case goes against the statistics. If early neutering was a factor in your cat's condition then you are going to be against it and that's perfectly understandable. Balanced against this would be the thousands of unwanted kittens that were prevented by EN, the cases of pyo which never happened, the prevention of trauma for a cat giving birth when only really still a kitten herself etc. However, when you're 'the one' it doesn't work for it's a personal tragedy.


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## MinkyMadam (Apr 12, 2014)

Thanks for your reply @havoc. I understand where you're coming from re balancing risks versus benefits, though my view is that will vary depending on the individual circumstances. In my case, if Biba's breeder had been happy with her being spayed at a later date, there would have been absolutely no question of me not honouring that, nor any chance that Biba would have had contact with any intact males before then. I would take that kind of responsibility very seriously. So the potential for unwanted kittens etc simply wouldn't have been an issue in her case.

Unfortunately I was completely ignorant about both benefits and risks, and just accepted it without question, as it was the breeder's standard practice. Perhaps I should have looked into it more carefully at the time - not that it would have stopped me adopting Biba, even if I had. But It would make me look at things differently in the future, having seen the pain and suffering that Biba's condition has caused - thank goodness it is so rare.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Unfortunately one of the drivers for early neutering is that far too many breeders have been assured 110% their kitten will be neutered, and it's not happened. Sometimes the breeder has had worried or upset owners on the phone either wondering why their girl is flaunting herself and being very noisy, or cross because she has started urine marking all over the place. And of course sometimes, they find out she has been bred from either accidentally or deliberately. 

I've also had the phone put down on my a couple of times by people wanting a girl who sounded perfect, until I mentioned she will be neutered before she leaves and the line went dead...

It is also worth noting that it might well have nothing at all to do with Biba's condition. I did some Googling and apparently the growth plates don't usually start fusing until well after 6 months, by which age most kittens that are going to get neutered have been 'done'.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> It is also worth noting that it might well have nothing at all to do with Biba's condition. I did some Googling and apparently the growth plates don't usually start fusing until well after 6 months, by which age most kittens that are going to get neutered have been 'done'.


I think with some estimates of the date of fusing you would have to wait until they were two years old. In any case early neutering is only possibly a factor since entire cats can also be affected so presumably some cats have a susceptibility to develop the condition but it is really very rare. It is just very sad for cats like Biba.


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## MinkyMadam (Apr 12, 2014)

Thanks for your replies @OrientalSlave and @QOTN. As I said in my first post, I'm aware that I can't establish early neutering was a causal factor in Biba's case. Equally, I can't rule it out either. The research does indicate the possibility of a link, and my own vet has highlighted this to me - I felt this was worth sharing.

I'm not expecting to change anyone's minds on this issue, and I'm not attempting to do so. I fully accept that my views have been coloured by my experience, just as those who have had only positive experiences will be influenced by those.

Thanks again.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Neutering at any age carries risks and there are those who are against it at all. It is the greater good we have to keep in mind and it isn't only pedigree cats we're talking about. By far the greatest number of EN kittens are non-peds with unknown parentage and no 'individual circumstances' to consider.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Really sorry you've had to go through this. It's difficult to say for certain if it was caused by EN, but as a breeder I don't EN my kittens ( not for that reason though). I think a breeder who takes care vetting their new owners doesn't need to EN. If the only way to stop them being mated is to neuter before homing then those aren't the right owners.
A responsible owner won't breed against the kitten breeders advice, and if they only want a pet then they will neuter later on - nothing to stop the breeder giving a freindly call at the 6 month mark to check how things are going, and an opportunity to nip any problems in the bud or help if circumstances have changed drastically since kitten was homed. If someone wants to be a backyard breeder they will get their kittens somewhere else, maybe from another backyard breeder - "no papers, hence price" or similar. So EN does nothing to prevent the problem, though admittedly it stops *those *kittens being bred from if the "good kitten buyer" radar isn't working on any of the phone calls or personal meetings prior to homing. The vast majority of EN kittens are indeed non-pedigree, because they will be through rescues, who simply can't check up on every one of their many hundred kittens homed each year. If a breeder had a good sized litter, that's 6, maybe max 7 quick phone calls. 
What worries me is that certain vets who EN for rescues don't EN privately. Whilst EN rescues might be "for the greater good", I still see no justification for EN a kitten where the breeder can spend the time homing to just the right people, and keeping in touch. To me, EN of rescues is a case of " the needs of the many ( on the waiting list), outweigh the needs of the few, or the one ( who may be at slightly greater risk from the surgery). For good breeders, the needs of the few, or the one, are the only consideration, so later neutering is preferable.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_For good breeders, the needs of the few, or the one, are the only consideration, so later neutering is preferable._
I didn't EN when breeding because I had one of those vets who wouldn't - even though they are on that CPL list of vets who will. If I'd been able to though I would have done and it had nothing whatsoever to do with not trusting my kitten buyers. It had everything to do with all the other benefits I have observed in kittens having the surgery whilst still with their litter mates and mother, the much reduced recovery time, the (admittedly perceived and anecdotal) reduced stress. Frankly I find the suggestion that I'd have done it because I couldn't be bothered to find good homes for my kittens or do any follow up and therefore not a 'good breeder' offensive in the extreme.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Playing devil's advocate here, what would you do if, on your friendly 6 month call, the owner told you they were postponing neutering until the age of 18 months in the hope fusion had taken place by then?

A study I read said metaphyseal osteopathy was mainly a problem of neutered overweight males. No surprise there really because there must be loads of those around! Of 16 affected cats, 9 had been neutered by the age of 6 months. That means 7 had not. Hardly statistically significant. As I mentioned before some cats with the condition are entire.

I did not have the option of EN when I was breeding but I frequently neutered or advised neutering at 5 months for my kittens. They would theoretically have been as at risk if 'early' neutering is a real risk with this disease. The fact that the disease is so rare and, as far as I know cannot be easily detected before it causes the terrible problems described, surely means it cannot be considered a factor in any sensible policy relating to the age of neutering.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

havoc said:


> I didn't EN when breeding because I had one of those vets who wouldn't - even though they are on that CPL list of vets who will.


'nuff said.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> Playing devil's advocate here, what would you do if, on your friendly 6 month call, the owner told you they were postponing neutering until the age of 18 months in the hope fusion had taken place by then?
> 
> A study I read said metaphyseal osteopathy was mainly a problem of neutered overweight males. No surprise there really because there must be loads of those around! Of 16 affected cats, 9 had been neutered by the age of 6 months. That means 7 had not. Hardly statistically significant. As I mentioned before some cats with the condition are entire.
> 
> I did not have the option of EN when I was breeding but I frequently neutered or advised neutering at 5 months for my kittens. They would theoretically have been as at risk if 'early' neutering is a real risk with this disease. The fact that the disease is so rare and, as far as I know cannot be easily detected before it causes the terrible problems described, surely means it cannot be considered a factor in any sensible policy relating to the age of neutering.


As I've stated, I don't EN, but not for those reasons. If I were to have such a call with one of my kitten owners I would ask them to let me check my vet's opinion on the matter, and get back to them, or ask them to contact my vet direct for a chat, as well as discussing with their own ( bearing in mind my vet will have examined the kittens several times before homing, and has their records). If they wanted to delay I would ask them to consider the issues of calling/spraying, escaping in heat, phantom pregnancy or weight loss against the potential risk of bones not completely fused. I would always advise they discussed issues with a qualified vet, who would be able to help them find the right course of action for their kitten. An informed decision to delay on medical grounds ( advised for their own individual cat) is a bit different to " can't be bothered" or "whoops". I doubt many vets would advise against neutering at 6 months, they have settled in new routine, recovered from vaccs, and gained weight. For my breed I doubt fusion would be a serious consideration compared to the issues it prevents arising.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

QOTN said:


> Playing devil's advocate here, what would you do if, on your friendly 6 month call, the owner told you they were postponing neutering until the age of 18 months in the hope fusion had taken place by then?


If, as a breeder, this happened to me, I would provide them with links to online reading material on the subject, especially the report by the Winn Feline Foundation and hope that they, along with their vet, came to a joint decision on how best to proceed.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> If, as a breeder, this happened to me, I would provide them with links to online reading material on the subject, especially the report by the Winn Feline Foundation and hope that they, along with their vet, came to a joint decision on how best to proceed.


Unfortunately there is no guarantee that, in the unlikely situation I cited, that reasoned argument would necessarily hold sway. I am afraid that, as time passes, I become increasingly pessimistic about the ability of rational argument to convince the majority of anything at all.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> As I've stated, I don't EN, but not for those reasons. If I were to have such a call with one of my kitten owners I would ask them to let me check my vet's opinion on the matter, and get back to them, or ask them to contact my vet direct for a chat, as well as discussing with their own ( bearing in mind my vet will have examined the kittens several times before homing, and has their records). If they wanted to delay I would ask them to consider the issues of calling/spraying, escaping in heat, phantom pregnancy or weight loss against the potential risk of bones not completely fused. I would always advise they discussed issues with a qualified vet, who would be able to help them find the right course of action for their kitten. An informed decision to delay on medical grounds ( advised for their own individual cat) is a bit different to " can't be bothered" or "whoops". I doubt many vets would advise against neutering at 6 months, they have settled in new routine, recovered from vaccs, and gained weight. For my breed I doubt fusion would be a serious consideration compared to the issues it prevents arising.


I rest my case your honour.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

QOTN said:


> I become increasingly pessimistic about the ability of rational argument to convince the majority of anything at all.


On this particular subject though, I find it incredibly difficult to understand _why. _Outside of any very rare occurrence which can possibly be attributed to EN (and even the term 'early' in relation to that is highly subjective) I've yet to find a single report/study to suggest that it is anything other than a safe and beneficial procedure or, at the very least, carries no more risk than neutering at the 'traditional' sort of age. And I say that as a breeder who has never EN and most likely never will.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_I didn't EN when breeding because I had one of those vets who wouldn't - even though they are on that CPL list of vets who will.

'nuff said.
_
I'm not quite sure what we're meant to glean from that incredibly rational and informative post.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Breeders, and reputable rescues may well make that 6 month reminder to neuter...but can't do an awful lot if the owner fails to respond or states outright that they have decided to breed. Has anyone ever been able to enforce a contract in this respect?
I am afraid that there is simply too much temptation, or too many chances for the new owner to go ahead and have 'just one litter'.
I speak from experience here and will admit openly that when I had Mitzy I had several weeks of wishful daydreaming about her having a litter. I can also tell you that it did not take much searching or hard work on my part to find the owner of a registered stud cat who would happily accept my little cross breed to mate with her boy.
Another example.....my friend had a girl and two boys from my foster family and did of course intend to get them duly neutered. When she told me about a friendly local cat who had taken to come visiting daily and gaze at her cats through the patio door I advised her to book them in without further delay. The visitor was indeed a Tom and within days her 4 month old female was in call and enticing her brothers.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Paddypaws said:


> <snip>
> Another example.....my friend had a girl and two boys from my foster family and did of course intend to get them duly neutered. When she told me about a friendly local cat who had taken to come visiting daily and gaze at her cats through the patio door I advised her to book them in without further delay. The visitor was indeed a Tom and within days her *4 month* old female was in call and enticing her brothers.


Which is why so many reputable organisations are now recommending 4 months as an age to neuter.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I never tried to enforce the contract but I did have to take a boy back who had started to spray because the owners 'hadn't got round to neutering him yet.' He was finally done at 8 months but that was too late. He stayed with me and lived to be 18 and a half! The only good thing about that was he became the first Grand Premier of his colour, but I would have been very happy for another breeder to have that honour instead! (He did stop spraying when he was about 16!)

I would add that it is almost impossible to enforce contracts. Mine was always a Welfare Agreement. The only time I had to take legal advice was when an owner refused to have veterinary treatment my vet says was necessary. She was probably insane but it did not help my poor cats. In the end I decided not to pursue the case because she had some of the required treatment done and I knew she was wily enough to make all sorts of promises if I did take action so I had to abandon my case. I still wonder every day how my cats are.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Early neutering is obviously a good way to weed out potential BYB's


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> Unfortunately there is no guarantee that, in the unlikely situation I cited, that reasoned argument would necessarily hold sway. I am afraid that, as time passes, I become increasingly pessimistic about the ability of rational argument to convince the majority of anything at all.


Yes, but our precious kittens don't go to the majority,,but the select few we as breeders approve.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> I rest my case your honour.


Not really, I said I don't early neuter, but not because of the fusion issue. Therefore I am happy to advise neutering at around 6 months for my breed, unless there was a particular issue flagged up,,in which case I would advise further research.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Catharinem said:


> Yes, but our precious kittens don't go to the majority,,but the select few we as breeders approve.


And however hard breeders try, they cannot be sure their kittens won't end up with BYBs.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> Not really, I said I don't early neuter, but not because of the fusion issue. Therefore I am happy to advise neutering at around 6 months for my breed, unless there was a particular issue flagged up,,in which case I would advise further research.


The fact remains that all advice can be ignored and there is nothing a breeder can do about it.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Of course advice can be ignored. It's little different from you or I being sold a fridge by a vegetarian and being 'advised' not to keep meat in it. Once sold something becomes the property of the buyer and they can do as they please with it.


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