# Anyone watching the Budget??



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

First full Tory Budget in a long time! Its going to shape the next 5 years.

Anyone else watching?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Hang on, isn't it tomorrow?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Oh bloody hell, I was reading yesterday's news this morning. D'oh!

I've turned it on now. Off work at the moment and no idea what day it is.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Just turned it over! All of the background racket n grumbling grates on me, it's like a boring pantomime. I'll read about it instead lol.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

CavalierOwner said:


> Just turned it over! All of the background racket n grumbling grates on me, it's like a boring pantomime. I'll read about it instead lol.


I know, I've been doing the washing up predicting which sentences will be followed by a flurry of 'yeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaah' and have been right every time.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Its this issue over the Seniors TV licence that gets me, the signal is transmitted, it costs no more for 1 million to receive it than for 10 million to receive it so why the issue?


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

CavalierOwner said:


> Just turned it over! All of the background racket n grumbling grates on me, it's like a boring pantomime. I'll read about it instead lol.


Ha! Exactly, it's all 'rah rah, ya ya' I'm waiting to hear 'bloody good show chaps' at some point.

Now, back to Wimbledon!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Disabled activists are pelting No 10 with balls!


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Have read the key points and, so far, can't see why on earth it is being hailed as 'a budget for the workers'.......!!!!!


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> Have read the key points and, so far, can't see why on earth it is being hailed as 'a budget for the workers'.......!!!!!


 Because of the living wage ??


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

ClaireLouise said:


> Because of the living wage ??


Maybe... I have just read that the minimum before income tax paid is increasing but can't see anything more on that. The BBC are not doing the best job of keeping their website updated.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

No tax on the first £11,000 of earnings. 

Shake-up of road tax - from 2017 the majority of vehicles will pay £140.

Fuel duty frozen.

Cut in benefits cap to £20,000 (£23k in London)


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2015/07/08/george-osborne-posts-picture-twitter-twitter-reacts/


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

"Maintenance grants for students - paid to students with family incomes below £42,000 - to be scrapped and converted into loans from 2016/17."

Well, thanks for that Tories. Very kind to students from poorer families to add to the mountain of debt they start their careers with, while their peers from richer families get their expenses paid by the Bank of Mum & Dad.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

I got confused by the fact they go on about the living wage, but no mention of putting the minimum wage up to the living wage.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Purposefully avoided the budget as I know it will make me angry.

Edit: and now getting angry just reading some of the things on here


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MrRustyRead said:


> I got confused by the fact they go on about the living wage, but no mention of putting the minimum wage up to the living wage.


It's going up in October and again in April next year, by which time it will have gone up 50p to £7.20


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Very very brave. I've been waiting fot decades for someone to have the guts to restrict benefits to 2 children and stop the pop a kid for cash


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> "Maintenance grants for students - paid to students with family incomes below £42,000 - to be scrapped and converted into loans from 2016/17."
> 
> Well, thanks for that Tories. Very kind to students from poorer families to add to the mountain of debt they start their careers with, while their peers from richer families get their expenses paid by the Bank of Mum & Dad.


That's my kids more than likely not going into HE then


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Public sector pay - only 1% rise each year?! Outrageous!!!

That was sarcasm, sorry. 1% is more than many of us in the private sector get.  We don't go on strike about it every five minutes either.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> That's my kids more than likely not going into HE then


It's dreadful. I owe almost £40K and I was lucky enough to get a grant and my tuition fees paid, so it'll be worse for the next lot. 

No 'right to a free education' in England.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Well deserved 1% for public sector staff imo. It should have been more



I work for the public sector and never been on strike


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> It's dreadful. I owe almost £40K and I was lucky enough to get a grant and my tuition fees paid, so it'll be worse for the next lot.
> 
> No 'right to a free education' in England.


Yeah, I have about 12k from getting my BSc. It's unforgivable that students from poorer families should have such a big burden over their heads after graduating, while others from wealthier families have the safety net of mummy & daddy.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

ClaireLouise said:


> Well deserved 1% for public sector staff imo. It should have been more
> 
> I work for the public sector and never been on strike


And yet, the biggest public sector workers (MP's), are getting a nice hefty 11% pay rise!!!!! Now if THAT is not f*cked up, nothing is!!!!!


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

*Here are the key points from today's Budget...*

*Pay*


National Living Wage announced for over 25 year olds starting at £7.20 per hour next year and rising to £9 by 2020.
Public sector - 1% pay rise
Increase in personal allowance tax to £11,000 
Only those who earn over £43,000 a year will now pay 40p higher tax rate
*Welfare*


Child Tax Credit - This will be capped at 2 children from 2017
Housing benefit - This will be scrapped for 18 - 21 year olds
Working age benefits - Frozen for 4 years
*Tax*


Income tax - threshold raised to £11,000
Corporation tax - 19% by 2017 then down again to 18% by 2020
Inheritance tax - property threshold raised to £1 million for couples (or £500,000 per owner the property)
*Other things you may want to know...*


Benefits cap to be reduced from £26,000 per household to £23,000 in London and £20,000 in the rest of the country
Increase in defence budget
NHS to receive additional £8bn per year by 2020 (in addition to the £2bn already announced)
Social housing tenants earning more than £40,000 in London and £30,000 elsewhere to pay rent at market rates
Working parents of three and four-year-olds will receive 30 hours of free childcare a week
Pensions tax annual allowance to be tapered away to a minimum of £10,000 from next year
Maintenance grants for students - paid to students with family incomes below £42,000 - to be scrapped and converted into loans from 2016/17
Fuel duties frozen for the remainder of this year
New cars and motorbikes will not need MOTs for the first four years, rather than three

for the living wage, will that be made the minimum wage or are they just saying that is the minimum ammount people earn to be able to live????


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I'm wondering how all those families with umpteen kids are going to survive with all these cuts.


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

Iheartcats said:


> I'm wondering how all those families with umpteen kids are going to survive with all these cuts.


barely. thats how.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> "Maintenance grants for students - paid to students with family incomes below £42,000 - to be scrapped and converted into loans from 2016/17."
> 
> Well, thanks for that Tories. Very kind to students from poorer families to add to the mountain of debt they start their careers with, while their peers from richer families get their expenses paid by the Bank of Mum & Dad.


Disagree.

I was one of the 'middle' class squashed students. Ma earnt 45K but I didn't have a Dad on hand and so I never got maintenance grants. All of mine were loans that I have to pay back, but the point is you still get the money, its just not a free gift, you have to pay it back eventually. Its all or nothing for me and I don't see why students should get free money when middle class students don't when they're both coming out with degrees.

About time I say, my Mum couldn't afford to give me free money and I still coped.



rona said:


> Very very brave. I've been waiting fot decades for someone to have the guts to restrict benefits to 2 children and stop the pop a kid for cash


Yep, shame it will take so long to properly come into effect though. Hopefully savings will still be good.



simplysardonic said:


> That's my kids more than likely not going into HE then


Its not SS. They will get maintenance loans not grant. They will still get it, jus have to pay it back eventually like the fees.



Shoshannah said:


> Public sector pay - only 1% rise each year?! Outrageous!!!
> 
> That was sarcasm, sorry. 1% is more than many of us in the private sector get.  We don't go on strike about it every five minutes either.


Now now lets not be snarky. Remember how hard a job the likes of nurses do and how the ceiling on their earnings is essentially capped quite quickly because its rather difficult to make it past a band 6. A 1% rise is effectively a pay cut with inflation taken into account. Everyone I know that works in private sector gets a pay rise of inflation per year, whether it be 2, 2.5 or 3%.

This is largely why our nurses go on bank or agency which costs the NHS millions of pounds per year.



ClaireLouise said:


> Well deserved 1% for public sector staff imo. It should have been more
> 
> I work for the public sector and never been on strike


Snap.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Wow. I was just blown away. I've listen too or watched most of the budget speeches in full since about 1990 and this is the first time I heard a completely flawless budget. I can't find a single thing to criticise. Sheer brilliance. Osborne may well go down as the finest politician of his generation. That was enough to switch me from voter to donor.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Disabled activists are pelting No 10 with balls!


Which element of the budget were they objecting too? Perhaps if they listened to it first they could have saved a trip and not made such a spectacle of themselves.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I'm pretty impressed too.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Satori said:


> Which element of the budget were they objecting too? Perhaps if they listened to it first they could have saved a trip and not made such a spectacle of themselves.


I'll leave it to these two Gentlemen to answer the question...


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

New car tax system will make a lot more sense, although they should have scrapped the Co2 emissions entirely. It's ridiculous that someone could do 40,000 miles a year in a Toyota Prius and pay nothing, yet someone who does 400 miles in a Porsche 911 pays £500


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

ClaireLouise said:


> First full Tory Budget in a long time! Its going to shape the next 5 years.
> 
> Anyone else watching?


OH is/was watching it, not sure if it's over yet. I'll get the highlights on the news, hopefully without all the waffle.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

CRL said:


> New cars and motorbikes will not need MOTs for the first four years, rather than three


Dreadful policy. It's bad enough how many people don't look after their cars already. Look how many 'new' cars fail their first MOT on tyres because nobody checks them. I think all cars should be subject to MOT regardless of age, personally.



GoldenShadow said:


> Disagree.
> 
> I was one of the 'middle' class squashed students. Ma earnt 45K but I didn't have a Dad on hand and so I never got maintenance grants. All of mine were loans that I have to pay back, but the point is you still get the money, its just not a free gift, you have to pay it back eventually. Its all or nothing for me and I don't see why students should get free money when middle class students don't when they're both coming out with degrees.


I (respectfully) disagree back. 

The squashed middle class are some of the worst off because they're not rich enough to fund their kids through university nor are they 'poor' enough to qualify for the grants (which nobody will now anyway). Rather than take away to make everyone equal, why not give more to make them equal? Most of the MPs who make these policies graduated at a time when tuition was funded by the state.

I didn't get anything from my parents through uni (they couldn't afford it), nor could I do any meaningful work (had to spend holidays on unpaid EMS and clinics are a full-time (unpaid) job anyway). I had to borrow the maximum amount from SLC, hence I now owe about £38K while my better-off friends owe nothing as their parents paid it all. I am fortunate, as I say, that my tuition fees were paid (this was back in the day when universities could only charge just over £1k per year) and I received a non-repayable grant. Not enough to live on, hence the loan, but helpful all the same.

All the same, when I lived in London I lived off £4 a week (couldn't do that now) and only ate one meal a day - and no, I didn't spend it all on drink as I don't drink. 

I understand that money has to come from somewhere, but the younger generation have it tough: poor job market, housing ladder impossible to get onto, ever-increasing amounts of (often unavoidable) student debt. I don't want to sound all wishy-washy and cliched but these people really are the doctors, teachers, scientists, engineers etc of the future and I'm sure a lot of them will just not bother because it's too expensive.

I'm not sure I'd do it all again if I had the chance; and I certainly wouldn't now. I'd be better off getting a job right away and at least building some savings rather than getting into mountains of debt.



GoldenShadow said:


> Now now lets not be snarky. Remember how hard a job the likes of nurses do and how the ceiling on their earnings is essentially capped quite quickly because its rather difficult to make it past a band 6. A 1% rise is effectively a pay cut with inflation taken into account. Everyone I know that works in private sector gets a pay rise of inflation per year, whether it be 2, 2.5 or 3%.
> 
> This is largely why our nurses go on bank or agency which costs the NHS millions of pounds per year.


You're right, it was snarky and I apologise. But my sentiment remains. I do not begrudge anyone in either sector a pay rise in line with inflation, but it's nice that it is guaranteed for public sector workers (and yet still many - NOT ALL - complain about it), yet it is far from guaranteed in the private sector. Everyone you know in the private sector may enjoy a payrise each year, but I can counter that by saying that pretty much everyone I know does NOT. That includes me, every one of my colleagues at work, and my husband.

In the past six years of employment I first received a pay cut, then a single payrise 3-4 years ago (which I had to ask for - was not automatic and certainly not linked to inflation). That's it. Not a penny more.

I cannot be the only one in the private sector who rolls their eyes when another Tube strike comes around due to frozen pay etc. I'm not saying they don't work hard or don't do a good job, but they are pretty lucky they have that guaranteed rise in line with inflation. They obviously wouldn't last five minutes in my job on that basis.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Satori said:


> Wow. I was just blown away. I've listen too or watched most of the budget speeches in full since about 1990 and this is the first time I heard a completely flawless budget. I can't find a single thing to criticise. Sheer brilliance. Osborne may well go down as the finest politician of his generation. That was enough to switch me from voter to donor.


So you think this budget was unflawed, sorry but i disagree, how are students suppose to get into Uni at this rate, they will owe money for loans for the rest of their life,
Also where are the jobs these who are losing tax credits are going to find there are thousands being laid off from jobs they have now,
I think this Government are the worst ever,and the Prime minister too, disgraceful they give themselves a pay rise of 11% and make themselves richer and their cronies and the poor poorer


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I can't agree with some of the Uni comments , hubs didn't qualify for any grants and his parents certainly wasn't rich and didn't help him out at all with the cost of uni, in fact the charged him house keep as he stayed at home and commuted. He came out with a large debt, he paid it off over the years, as he did a degree in something which actually lead to a job  Our son wants to go to Uni, he will have to do the same as I doubt we will be able to help him out ....despite hubs being a high earner.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

So you want the next generation to suffer because you didnt get any help, your mothers income was much more than most of these students parents will earn
I think you are being very selfish, its going to be only the rich who get on in this world if thats how you think
It was bad enough putting the fees up to £9000 in the last budget, but this is much worse
None of this budget affects me,but i do care about the people it does affect
Also people having less money coming in will be having to get rid of their pets if they are having to move ,because they cant afford to live where they are ,or lose their tax credits and housing benefit
Forgot to insert QUOTE but im sure the person will know who i mean


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

How much were the fees then though, not £9000 ,lots of people got through uni once without help,but not now, everything has rocketed, and living at home would be cheaper than having to rent flats like a lot have to do [email protected] around £400-6-00 a month


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

This is a budget to please the Tory faithful and those who prefer to take from the young and those of working age to give to the old.

Social housing tenants who have to pay their rent at the 'market rate' will have huge rent increases to pay in some areas. The winners here will be the housing associations, but also private landlords, who will be able to raise their rents in line with this (as in many areas, private rents are higher than social rents, but do keep in line with them to a degree). Those who cannot afford higher rents will end up stuck in social housing ghettos living in the lowest level of social housing.

Children from both working class and middle class families will continue to suffer because of the amounts they will have to pay back for receiving their higher education. This will be made worse now by taking away the maintenance grants for students from lower income families and, whatever anyone says, it will be worse for working class kids whose parents cannot afford to help them. But either way, I think it is totally wrong to tax graduates so highly for their education. These are the young people the country will be relying on in years to come - the group who will pay taxes to help pay their parents' and grandparents' pensions and the group who have the ability to come up with innovations in health, business, education and all the things this country needs to keep ahead of its competitors.

But for those who think that pensioners have got off lightly, I would say think again. It is all a facade unless you are relatively wealthy.

On first view, it looks like the only way that pensioners will be hit will be that the better-off pensioner will lose part of their tax annual allowance.
So they may be reasonably content, but I think they will be wrong, given that welfare cuts will affect anyone who gets any benefit payment. Add to this that benefits will be frozen and all those pensioners who voted Tory may well be regretting that choice.

Benefits being frozen for the duration of this parliament (even those which are not cut) mean that, within those 5 years, more and more people will begin to earn above the base level of benefits and this will affect them considerably.
This will actually affect the poorest of pensioners, because, as pensions rise, more and more of them will eventually get pensions higher than pension credit levels. This sounds good, but in actual fact this will then take them off of guaranteed credits and everything that comes with them, including access to housing benefit.

And as for the 'living wage' of £7.20.... that is a joke. Families where the main wage earner is on £7.20 an hour are on a very low wage indeed. Add to this the fact that tax credits are to be cut and families like this will have nowhere left to go.

But that's my thoughts for now


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> I can't agree with some of the Uni comments , hubs didn't qualify for any grants and his parents certainly wasn't rich and didn't help him out at all with the cost of uni, in fact the charged him house keep as he stayed at home and commuted. He came out with a large debt, he paid it off over the years, as he did a degree in something which actually lead to a job  Our son wants to go to Uni, he will have to do the same as I doubt we will be able to help him out ....despite hubs being a high earner.


This exactly! Do a degree which leads to a job / career.

Maybe it's make those think twice who go for a few years drinking / living it up because they can.

There is a huge emphasis on 'going to uni' when actually for some maybe on the job training / a college course or even employment and working your way up.

I went to uni - I have my fair share of debt. I do t moan about it and never expected money for free. I'm paying it back each month and will be for a lot of years.

Personnally I believed this budget to be quite refreshing.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Question answered by the time I'd posted.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> How much were the fees then though, not £9000 ,lots of people got through uni once without help,but not now, everything has rocketed, and living at home would be cheaper than having to rent flats like a lot have to do [email protected] around £400-6-00 a month


I can't remember I think it was around 2.5-3k for student fees and then £100 a week for a travel card into London....It wasn't the cheapest option but he stayed home for me  As I said he then paid house keep and went to work even though his was a full on full time degree with a 1hr30 commute either side, needs must.

TBH I do think student fees are a rip off, they're not getting 9K worth of tuition a year. It certainly means students are choosing degrees which lead to a career and can't chop and change degrees !


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

Shoshannah said:


> Dreadful policy. It's bad enough how many people don't look after their cars already. Look how many 'new' cars fail their first MOT on tyres because nobody checks them. I think all cars should be subject to MOT regardless of age, personally.


I was behind a 2 year old Peugeot 208 yesterday that had no brake lights at all! If anything I'd introduce a mini-MOT every 6 mtohns to check the tyres, lights and safety features for all vehicles



silvi said:


> This is a budget to please the Tory faithful and those who prefer to take from the young and those of working age to give to the old.
> 
> Social housing tenants who have to pay their rent at the 'market rate' will have huge rent increases to pay in some areas. The winners here will be the housing associations, but also private landlords, who will be able to raise their rents in line with this (as in many areas, private rents are higher than social rents, but do keep in line with them to a degree). Those who cannot afford higher rents will end up stuck in social housing ghettos living in the lowest level of social housing.


Only for those earning over £30k a year outside London. I earn less than half that and have to pay full market rate because I'm not entitled to any state assistance so I say it's about time


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Id like to see child benefit scrapped, its had its day and is of no use to anyone on benefits and could be replaced by extra personal tax allowance, this would also stop - in a flash - the payment of it to 1000's of kids in the EU who will never live here in the UK

Id also like to see ALL benefits means tested, why give heating allowance to the rich (for instance) or OAP's living abroad?

The "Inheritance tax" issue is a hoax, millionaires dont leave fortunes liable to being raided by the tax man


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> The "Inheritance tax" issue is a hoax, millionaires dont leave fortunes liable to being raided by the tax man


but a lot of working people who have worked hard all their lives and now have a house worth over £500,000 do...........

Even fairly uninspiring houses reach that in my part of the world 
http://www.primelocation.com/for-sa...32c5763074f4d67a804e3d2e0#25KM7645CcRCwIhz.97


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

rona said:


> but a lot of working people who have worked hard all their lives and now have a house worth over £500,000 do...........


But why when the answer is an easy one.....sort it early


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I need to catch up with it. I'm furiously responding to Helen Goodman over comments about the Labour leadership race. Which, if you know me well enough on here, you'll know why I'm furious.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Milliepoochie said:


> This exactly! Do a degree which leads to a job / career.
> 
> Maybe it's make those think twice who go for a few years drinking / living it up because they can.


This attitude to students, especially from ex students, really annoys me.
I teach undergraduates and I could count on one hand the students who spend their time drinking and 'living it up'. Most of them work bloody hard and really deserve their degrees.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

silvi said:


> This attitude to students, especially from ex students, really annoys me.
> I teach undergraduates and I could count on one hand the students who spend their time drinking and 'living it up'. Most of them work bloody hard and really deserve their degrees.


Applauds. I've done a BA in my late teens, an OU degree and now an MA -and yes, met very few who are lazy.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

jaycee05 said:


> So you think this budget was unflawed, sorry but i disagree, how are students suppose to get into Uni at this rate, they will owe money for loans for the rest of their life,


Well they could always get high paying jobs afterwards.



jaycee05 said:


> Also where are the jobs these who are losing tax credits are going to find there are thousands being laid off from jobs they have now,


There are in excess of 700,000 vacancies in the UK today, the highest at any point in history and growing rapidly. Of course people have want to do them.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

negative creep said:


> Only for those earning over £30k a year outside London. I earn less than half that and have to pay full market rate because I'm not entitled to any state assistance so I say it's about time


But £30k a year isn't that much for a couple to earn if they are both working full time. They could both be in low paid jobs but still scraping that amount.
Their saving grace would have been their social housing rent, but suddenly take that away from them and they could be in a truly dire situation.
This might work in areas where rents are not high, but where I live, for instance, the average rental for a two bedroom flat in the private sector is around £750 a month, often a lot higher, whereas social housing rents are around £450 a month for a similar flat. And when you consider rented _houses_, you are into really high rentals. Suddenly asking someone to pay £300 or more extra per month for their rent would cripple them financially.

I think that one of the 'benefits' the Tories see behind this is that eventually social housing renters will decide that they may as well buy their rented accommodation. After all, they will be offered a price at 60% market value....
(Strange how social housing tenants can be offered a reduction to buy their accommodation, but not for their rent...)


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> I (respectfully) disagree back.
> 
> The squashed middle class are some of the worst off because they're not rich enough to fund their kids through university nor are they 'poor' enough to qualify for the grants (which nobody will now anyway). Rather than take away to make everyone equal, why not give more to make them equal? Most of the MPs who make these policies graduated at a time when tuition was funded by the state.
> 
> ...


I find it SO hard to reply to quotes on here with the new layout :Arghh

A lot of people are doing degrees these days and I know an awful lot who go into a career which doesn't require their degree, so they end up saddled with debt and literally didn't need to bother. So many graduates are ending up in 'recruitment' roles which are basically sales roles and usually OTE/commission based with is another issue I have with the job market and how it is portrayed entirely...

Cuts have to be made and at the end of the day, the money needed can be borrowed, so I don't see the issue? It just has to be paid back eventually now. I feel as though we begrudge people for having money sometimes in this country. Some people work hard and do well, some people work hard and don't, just like some people deliberately exploit the system etc. I genuinely believe the price people now pay for university is because of the massive numbers that go, and we are always saying how we need people with vocational skills such as electricians, plumbers etc. Uni has been painted as a fun time which (IMO) is why the majority go. We're starting to pay for that now, or the current young 'uns are.

Re rail strikes by the way, if you look into it, they've actually had proper pay rises far higher than that of people in NHS, local authority etc and are still striking. That shocked me when I read about it, I thought they were moaning at a 1% rise or something but nope, they've had more and are still not happy. Tube strikes are more re the overnight working I think.

I am still a relative young 'un and I am quite critical of a lot of my generation. I'm 23. We are just in the process of buying our first house. We have saved really hard. We don't smoke, we don't drink, our 'vices' are the dogs. We don't have amazing cars, but good, reliable ones which do the job. My friends have brand spanking new 15 plates on a three year lease which they constantly renew. One said today she has spent £50 in the last week on breakfasts and lunches at work. My jaw hit the floor!! I take my own sandwiches and have a Costa probably once a fortnight as a treat on my way in  Despite my Ma and Pa earning they were never good at budgeting and I spent my childhood feeling guilty having piano lessons because I didn't think they could afford it. It was their budgeting that let them down really, I said to myself that I never want to worry about money like they did and I still feel as though I'm too frivolous at times.

That's mad re the people you know in the private sector. OH works for Tesco and they always put the pay up in line with inflation or thereabouts. Other pay rises i.e. performance based are near enough impossible though. From what I recall its the likes of nurses doing most of the striking in the NHS. It really isn't an ideal career path, you go through band 5 quite quick I think but usually stagnate around band 6. Without further training you will always be a nurse etc. My last general district hospital that I worked at was spending over £1.2m a month on bank and agency staff. I think its the better pay from those that make normal NHS pay bands seem like peanuts hence why it is the likes of nurses doing the striking. Not saying it is right, but the system does (and is) being shaken up.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> I can't agree with some of the Uni comments , hubs didn't qualify for any grants and his parents certainly wasn't rich and didn't help him out at all with the cost of uni, in fact the charged him house keep as he stayed at home and commuted. He came out with a large debt, he paid it off over the years, as *he did a degree in something which actually lead to a job*  Our son wants to go to Uni, he will have to do the same as I doubt we will be able to help him out ....despite hubs being a high earner.


As did I. 



Milliepoochie said:


> This exactly! Do a degree which leads to a job / career.
> 
> Maybe it's make those think twice who go for a few years drinking / living it up because they can.
> 
> ...


While there will always be some who mess about, I wonder if their numbers are decreasing in view of the costs of university education, in particular those without wealthy parents. I agree that university is not for everyone, but there are certain professions that need a degree and there is no other way to enter the profession (mine, for example; another would be medicine, or law). The people on these courses are NOT very likely to be the type to mess around. Too much at stake and they've worked too hard to be there.

Ok, so I've moaned about my student debt here; but in all honesty I usually don't because, like you, I never expected something for nothing. I'm grateful for the opportunities I had (ie the grants, the availability of a loan in the first place) and I was willing to take on the debt. My concern is for the next generation of students, those in my position who won't have the opportunities I had; it just gets harder and harder.

I am a great believer in education. I come from a family in which nobody had progressed beyond GCSE level and we had very little money. The reason I'm in this job today is because of my education and the opportunities I had. I find it tragic that others won't have the same.

We risk returning to a society where only the rich can go to university, and then the background of our professionals risks becoming less diverse.

I donate money four times a year to my alma mater's (do we say that here or is it an American thing? lol) student hardship fund. The fund helped me out when times were tight and I like to try and help other students in my position.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

"Living wage"? What a laugh. Up to £7.20/hr next April, and to the princely sum of £9.00 by 2020 (I think it was) - by that time inflation will have eroded it and it won't even be worth what it is now. And no mention of the zero hours contracts - the "twenty-first century first-world slavery contract" as it would be better known.

I agree that people should be discouraged from having large families - but not just poor people. Rich people are also populating our tiny planet, and actually their individual carbon footprint is MUCH greater. What the Tories are saying is that poor people shouldn't have children (don't worry - they will import their own underpaid staff from among the desperate migrants when the home-bred ones run out!).

And all this sh!te about "when we brought in loans instead of grants, even more people went to university, therefore we're going to give them the opportunity to get into even more educational debt as they obviously love it!" - that's because you need a degree in waste management engineering to even get a job as a bin man now!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

*Just want to emphasise because I think people are worrying unnecessarily.*

Uni students. Get tuition fee LOAN. Maintenance LOAN. Kids from poor families (earning less than 42K) get Maintenance GRANTS.

Instead of getting GRANTS which are free and do not have to be paid back, they will be LOANS.

When I went to uni, I had 3K tuition, 5K maint loan, 0 grant.

Friends were getting 3K tuition, 2K loan and 3K grant.

How is it fair that I pay back 8K and they pay back 5K? It isn't IMO, so I don't think this is a big issue. I would be far more concerned about the interest rate on the loan if you really want something to worry about.

The only change is that my 'friends' and equivalents will now pay back 8K too. They will still get the money, but it wont be a free gift courtesy of the tax payer.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

We have a skills shortage in the country, far too many dont want to get their hands dirty so we have no engineers, plumbers, fitters, welders, etc, good job its not 1938 and need to create an airforce or army equipment or fit out battleships really....but we will be awash with grapgic designers, etc


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

lostbear said:


> "Living wage"? What a laugh. Up to £7.20/hr next April, and to the princely sum of £9.00 by 2020 (I think it was) - by that time inflation will have eroded it and it won't even be worth what it is now. And no mention of the zero hours contracts - the "twenty-first century first-world slavery contract" as it would be better known.


Many wouldnt work for £17/hour let alone £7

£7.20/hour looks good to me TBH, especially with the personal tax allowance of £10,000 a year


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

GoldenShadow said:


> *I find it SO hard to reply to quotes on here with the new layout* :Arghh
> Same here - it's a bugger!
> 
> *A lot of people are doing degrees these days and I know an awful lot who go into a career which doesn't require their degree, *
> ...


Government jobs and NHS are generally run on a shoestring - i.e. "How FEW people can we just scrape along with?" rather than looking at optimum staffing levels. This means that when there is sickness/holidays etc, there is no slack to take up, and agency staff (horrendously expensive) are called in. Keeping staffing levels at a bog minimum is a false economy.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

silvi said:


> This attitude to students, especially from ex students, really annoys me.
> I teach undergraduates and I could count on one hand the students who spend their time drinking and 'living it up'. Most of them work bloody hard and really deserve their degrees.


I only left uni a year ago, so I would say my opinion very accurately reflects my faculty at the university I went to. I also transferred to a second uni at one point so have experience of both, and many friends still at uni. Most do work hard, but I'm not kidding, a good 30% were doing my course purely to escape the world of work. They used to throw paper at the lecturers and call them see you next tuesdays, too. I bet that doesn't happen at your place of work, but as I am sure you know, there is a great deal of variation regarding universities and the students at them.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

@GoldenShadow

Lol, my Tube strike example was hypothetical, I forgot about the actual Tube strike happening at the moment! 

I don't think we're all that different. I'm a little older, but my views on the current generation are similar. I run an old car, have never bought anything on credit (much to the detriment of my credit rating), put a fair bit into savings. Still saving for the house, but still. I don't drink or smoke, never take holidays.

I'll be the first to say I do sometimes get a case of the sour grapes. My close friends have well-off parents who helped them with their house deposit, and their partners are in high-paid jobs too. My parents had/have diddlysquat and I married a penniless man with nothing but the shirt on his back (and a busted guitar amp, which is still busted). Sometimes, I admit, I do look at their lovely houses and nice holidays and think, "for crying out loud, I worked just as hard!" It takes a stronger character than I not to, I think.

But I do realise this is MY problem and not theirs. :Sorry


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> How is it fair that I pay back 8K and they pay back 5K? It isn't IMO, so I don't think this is a big issue. I would be far more concerned about the interest rate on the loan if you really want something to worry about.


This is a flaw in the system. Many of my contemporaries with 'comfortable' parents paid their kids' tuition fees, and some even took the loans and invested them for a profit later on. These kids are much more well off even than the kids who got the grants and, sadly, people like you who do not fit that category.

I'm not sure how, but the means testing needs to be tweaked, I think.

ETA: But I totally see your point.


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

silvi said:


> But £30k a year isn't that much for a couple to earn if they are both working full time. They could both be in low paid jobs but still scraping that amount.
> Their saving grace would have been their social housing rent, but suddenly take that away from them and they could be in a truly dire situation.
> This might work in areas where rents are not high, but where I live, for instance, the average rental for a two bedroom flat in the private sector is around £750 a month, often a lot higher, whereas social housing rents are around £450 a month for a similar flat. And when you consider rented _houses_, you are into really high rentals. Suddenly asking someone to pay £300 or more extra per month for their rent would cripple them financially.
> 
> ...


If you're taking home more than the national average wage every month (and that's before tax credits etc) then I don't see it as unreasonable that you should be paying the national average for your rent. Bob Crowe used to take home £145k p/a yet still lived in a council house, now that is crazy!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

For those who haven't heard yet, heres the key points in Osbornes Budget.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> We have a skills shortage in the country, far too many dont want to get their hands dirty so *we have no engineers, plumbers, fitters, welders,* etc, good job its not 1938 and need to create an airforce or army equipment or fit out battleships really....but we will be awash with grapgic designers, etc


And that's because Thatcher destroyed all of the heavy industries which provided apprenticeships and training in all of these vital areas. It's not that people don't want to work - many aren't given the opportunity. There is a wealth of talent out there and it is not being cherished and brought on the way it should. I don't blame many kids for losing hope - they know they have no chance of getting a decent job (sometimes any job) - and that they are written off by the government when they are in the womb.

Do you think that the average intelligence of children in sink estates is any lower than the average intelligence of Our Belived Leaders? Of course it isn't - but they get the education and the opportunities. We're not just talking Daddy's money here, we're talking Daddy's connections that ensure that during the university vacation they get a nice cushy internship on £20,000 for doing sod all, and still get a free holiday at Klosters at the company's expense while your kids and mine are working minimum wage day and night just to pay for books.

Don't get me wrong CB - I don't believe people should get something for nothing, but I do firmly believe that most people would prefer to work for a living than sit bored out of their skull day in and day out while worrying about how they can stretch their benefit!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> For those who haven't heard yet, heres the key points in Osbornes Budget.


Thank you Noush! This is it n a nutshell!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lostbear said:


> Thank you Noush! This is it n a nutshell!


No problem LB.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

lostbear said:


> Do you think that the average intelligence of children in sink estates is any lower than the average intelligence of Our Belived Leaders? Of course it isn't - but they get the education and the opportunities. We're not just talking Daddy's money here, we're talking Daddy's connections that ensure that during the university vacation they get a nice cushy internship on £20,000 for doing sod all, and still get a free holiday at Klosters at the company's expense while your kids and mine are working minimum wage day and night just to pay for books.


A boring story for you: I was privately educated on a scholarship for local children who scored high marks in the 11-plus. There was no grammar school in my town, and the only state school was, sadly, a very poor one. The scholarships were set up in lieu of the grammar school we did not have. The scholarship fund paid for my secondary education and that of 24 other local kids. I can't speak for the others, but in my case I was lucky because my parents didn't have the money to fund such a thing. In that place, at that time, under those circumstances, I believe my education benefited due to these events.

Shortly after I left the school, they scrapped the scholarship scheme. Now the children of my town have to attend the state school (which I hope is better nowadays but was, as I said, failing when I was a teenager), have rich parents who can send them to the private school, or try and get a place in the grammar school ten miles away. Places are limited.

The opportunity afforded to me as a kid, which was independent of the factors you mentioned (rich parents, fancy connections) and truly available to all, does not exist for the current children. That makes me sad. We should be doing all we can to PRESERVE this kind of opportunity, not dissolve it. I fear all we will be left with is the scenario you describe.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> @GoldenShadow
> 
> Lol, my Tube strike example was hypothetical, I forgot about the actual Tube strike happening at the moment!
> 
> ...


OH DEAR LORD THE STRIKES :Bawling

I only work in London on average a couple days a month, but every time I get stuck. I'm studying a professional qualification and the strikes were literally on and surrounding my exam dates last time. I had to leave a conference early today because of the tube strikes and then there was a major security alert so I had to dash across Hammersmith to a different station to get home. So not cut out of city working..!

Hmmm yes I do see where you are coming from. Some of my friends had horses growing up, never needed a part time job etc. Idyllic lifestyles really. Can do what they want career wise because Ma and Pa will help out if they need it. For me, I have always factored in salary potential into what I was going to do. My Mum is 57 with a stinking great mortgage, crap job security and nothing but state pension to survive on later on so I expect we may need to help her out as she ages too. Totally the opposite to the friends you describe!

I know people on my salary who never went to uni (so no loan to payback), don't pay into pensions etc and therefore come away with a fair whack more a month than I do which makes me re evaluate too. I've taken a bit of a long career path for the benefits later on but gosh I fancy some short term bonuses sometimes...


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

silvi said:


> This attitude to students, especially from ex students, really annoys me.
> I teach undergraduates and I could count on one hand the students who spend their time drinking and 'living it up'. Most of them work bloody hard and really deserve their degrees.





MollySmith said:


> Applauds. I've done a BA in my late teens, an OU degree and now an MA -and yes, met very few who are lazy.


Totally agree - especially with degrees that are vocational - I taught Speech Therapy and Language Sciences at Newcastle University and it is a bloody hard course and involves a HUGE amount of work - and students put in that graft, and came out with a good degree and there weren't any jobs for them because of NHS cuts, even though the need for SLTs is enormous! And I would imagine that it is the same in many areas. Or jobs are being outsourced to third world countries because they are cheaper.

Don't blame the students - they're like the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland - having to run faster and faster just to stay in one spot.

We have so much talent, so many wonderful children and young people in our country, and we are flushing them down the toilet. This system STINKS!!!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

GoldenShadow said:


> I only left uni a year ago, so I would say my opinion very accurately reflects my faculty at the university I went to. I also transferred to a second uni at one point so have experience of both, and many friends still at uni. Most do work hard, but I'm not kidding, a good 30% were doing my course purely to escape the world of work. They used to throw paper at the lecturers and call them see you next tuesdays, too. I bet that doesn't happen at your place of work, but as I am sure you know, there is a great deal of variation regarding universities and the students at them.


What was the degree course that they could get away with that? Certainly couldn't have where I worked.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

silvi said:


> This attitude to students, especially from ex students, really annoys me.
> I teach undergraduates and I could count on one hand the students who spend their time drinking and 'living it up'. Most of them work bloody hard and really deserve their degrees.


I didn't say they don't deserve their degrees......

But there's this or certainly was five years a go a huge emphasis on to be a success you need to go to uni....

At school it was all we were told.

Queue lots of new courses cropping up - courses to suit all different people as everyone can go to uni yep. Fair enough open it to the mases but why should it be state funded if an increase in different type of degrees means the market is flooded and a number of these people never get jobs using there studies?

I know of someone who done Creative writing - boasted they never sat one physical exam in three years (all course work) and still does there student job now post degree albeit full time.

Someone else who studied history who works in retail for minimum wage- the job she done before uni..

I am not saying all students are like this.. But if those types are dissuaded from going as they are not entitled to a grant but have to pay it all back then it maybe better for them in the longer run and the tax payers.

I know how hard it is to work for a degree - I was a run of the mill 'B' 'C' grade student who moved out of my student house for the last six months of my final year to study in peace as it became evident I needed to study more than housemates...

If the fact the money needs to be paid back makes people think twice against degree choice and look at life beyond uni in my opinion that's brilliant.

As for student loans - yes it's depressing starting life in debt but it is not a bad debt. You do not pass it to your children and it doesn't effect you getting a mortgage. I do not for one minute regret my degree choice or career direction - I had to take a considerable loan but now in a steady job slowly paying it back.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

GoldenShadow said:


> I only left uni a year ago, so I would say my opinion very accurately reflects my faculty at the university I went to. I also transferred to a second uni at one point so have experience of both, and many friends still at uni. Most do work hard, but I'm not kidding, a good 30% were doing my course purely to escape the world of work. They used to throw paper at the lecturers and call them see you next tuesdays, too. I bet that doesn't happen at your place of work, but as I am sure you know, there is a great deal of variation regarding universities and the students at them.


Indeed huge variation I would of thought- which is why some units are so desirable.

Universities are businesses - with different entry criteria a between courses and institutions.

Some will take on any student with basic entry criteria who has the money to pay to be there whether that be from loan / grant /parent.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I read that higher earners lliving on council properties should pay the market rate and for this I wholly agree with. Why the heck should someone who earns 45k live in a subsidised property and have their rent paid for by other tax payers.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> I didn't say they don't deserve their degrees......
> 
> But there's this or certainly was five years a go a huge emphasis on to be a success you need to go to uni....
> 
> ...


I do think that jobs are getting more degree based and within that it's about what course and what uni as a measurement too. Where I work it's all old boys/girls Cambridge Uni network  I think that the cop out for the Government is the Labour establish Open Uni. I took my second degree with them (I do appear to collect them, at least the brain works if the rest of me doesn't!) and I am glad I did as it meant I could work and pay - but it was so expensive and I think it's utterly wrong that everyone needs a degree and those who do not are less than valuable. I think life skills and voluntary work is so important.

Incidentally I have studied Creative Writing as part of my Open Uni degree and I didn't take an exam either. In fact just one exam where one sits in a hall in a traditional way in all of the degree. But those modules were really hard work and all tutor or examiner moderated. My MA is too. But that merely seems to extend the fear factor in my experience 

I should add that I do see the value of my graphic design degrees in my job, I think they are necessary sadly. But I'd happily employ someone with a BTEC and train them up but they have no apprenticeships anymore...:Banghead


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

GoldenShadow said:


> I only left uni a year ago, so I would say my opinion very accurately reflects my faculty at the university I went to. I also transferred to a second uni at one point so have experience of both, and many friends still at uni. Most do work hard, but I'm not kidding, a good 30% were doing my course purely to escape the world of work. They used to throw paper at the lecturers and call them see you next tuesdays, too. I bet that doesn't happen at your place of work, but as I am sure you know, there is a great deal of variation regarding universities and the students at them.


I teach at two different universities: one red brick and one 'new' (ie: ex-poly).

Of those students I have found to be 'just there for the ride', at least half of those were giving that impression because they were struggling and needed help which I was able to give them (I took evening classes under my own time so that I could help students with dyslexia and similar problems - other lecturers I work with have done the same).

Of those 'just for a ride' students left after that, some responded to a 'pep talk', others responded to peer pressure and of the very few left, some still manged to get a decent degree because they were good at cramming. Very few were hopeless cases who ended up just coasting and leaving with a third.

I'm actually proud of the way I teach and that I can help students, and I'm also proud of the universities I work for, because they will go the extra mile for their students.
But most of all, I'm proud of the students I have taught over recent years, because they have worked hard and have thoroughly deserved to go on and do well.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> We have a skills shortage in the country, far too many dont want to get their hands dirty so we have no engineers, plumbers, fitters, welders, etc, good job its not 1938 and need to create an airforce or army equipment or fit out battleships really....but we will be awash with grapgic designers, etc


I doubt we will be awash with graphic designers. It's pretty difficult to get on a good graphic design course nowadays 
But I do agree that there need to be more real apprenticeships in plumbing, welding, engineering, etc.
But not the so-called 'apprenticeships' on offer - the one-year plus one day attendance at an FE college and then thrown back to the job centre.
Kids need proper apprenticeships where they work their way through all the skills involved and get hands-on experience and learn techniques from those already skilled at the job.
But those would take time and commitment from government and from employers, but government policy appears to be to get things done as quickly and as cheaply as possible.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

negative creep said:


> If you're taking home more than the national average wage every month (and that's before tax credits etc) then I don't see it as unreasonable that you should be paying the national average for your rent. Bob Crowe used to take home £145k p/a yet still lived in a council house, now that is crazy!


But it's not the national average if you live in an area where rents are sky high.
Social housing has allowed ordinary, working class people to live and work in these areas, along with their friends and families. But measures like this will move people away from high rent areas and cause ghetto areas in others.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Milliepoochie said:


> I didn't say they don't deserve their degrees......
> 
> But there's this or certainly was five years a go a huge emphasis on to be a success you need to go to uni....
> 
> ...


You see I must have grown up in a totally different area to you  (and I would say that my daughters are growing up now in a very different area to yours too).

Where I went to school, it was considered very unlikely that most of us would eventually go on to uni. Sixth form college sure, but mainly to do tech courses or re-sits.
I remember getting my A level results and my tutor was shocked that I had actually got the grades to go to the uni of my choice - he usually had pupils who got high enough grades to go to a 'new' university or into the civil service.

My daughters' school isn't much better. They are both in top level groups for all subjects, but the main aim appears to be getting as many A-C GCSE grades as possible to keep the 'academy' governors happy...and then thinking afterwards about what they will actually do with them.

If my daughters could go to a school where pupils are expected to go on to a good university, I would be so, so pleased (or earning enough money to send them to private school.....).

But I do agree with you that for a while at least some of the degrees offered were a bit 'different'. And that employers didn't quite know what to make of them.
But it also used to be the case that a good degree in a number of different subjects was 'good enough' to allow you to attain a decent job....that is when there were more decent jobs about....

Having said that.... although I think that it is very important that young people are trained for the world of work and have the skills when they leave college or uni to attain this, I also believe that there is more to a degree course than this.
Degrees are about thinking and analysis as well as learning. They are not just for churning out robots for the workplace.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

lostbear said:


> And that's because Thatcher destroyed all of the heavy industries which provided apprenticeships and training in all of these vital areas.


OMG, and I thought it was the unions fault......


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> OMG, and I thought it was the unions fault......


Scargill played into her evil, scaly, grasping avaricious hands, but she was determined from the word "go" to break the unions -


Colliebarmy said:


> OMG, and I thought it was the unions fault......


You were wrong.

Scargill played into her evil, scaly, grasping avaricious hands, but she was determined from the word "go" to break the unions - and she did it, and destroyed the steel, coal and shipbuilding industries at the same time. I don't know where you live - the dark side sounds very southern to me, born as I was in God's Own Country (though overshadowed by the Hosts of Mordor, personified by the Tory Party and, alas, by that foul, murdering, war-mongering piece of scum, Blair) but here in the North-East whole communities were destroyed by Thatcher and her vile policies.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

lostbear said:


> Scargill played into her evil, scaly, grasping avaricious hands, but she was determined from the word "go" to break the unions - and she did it, and destroyed the steel, coal and shipbuilding industries at the same time. I don't know where you live - the dark side sounds very southern to me, born as I was in God's Own Country (though overshadowed by the Hosts of Mordor, personified by the Tory Party and, alas, by that foul, murdering, war-mongering piece of scum, Blair) but here in the North-East whole communities were destroyed by Thatcher and her vile policies.


Thatcher's hands were scaly? She should have moisturised!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> Thatcher's hands were scaly? She should have moisturised!


She was lizard dressed as mutton. There's only so much even Helena Rubenstein can do.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)




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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

We're going a bit David Icke there it seems!


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

I'm surprised on a Pet Lovers forum that no-one has mentioned the effects on people with Pets? Think one person has briefly but can't find the post again to quote that bit. I mentioned it before (not on this post in Dog Chat I think) but was told it wouldn't make any difference to how many pets would be abandoned cos their owners were being made homeless or just didn't have enough to feed them and pay for their care.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

IncaThePup said:


> I'm surprised on a Pet Lovers forum that no-one has mentioned the effects on people with Pets? Think one person has briefly but can't find the post again to quote that bit. I mentioned it before (not on this post in Dog Chat I think) but was told it wouldn't make any difference to how many pets would be abandoned cos their owners were being made homeless or just didn't have enough to feed them and pay for their care.


Thank you Inca - you're right of course and I agree with you that we should have picked up on this much sooner. Animals will be disposed of because people are made homeless, or because their household income is reduced so much they can't afford to keep their pets . . .

. . . and other people will see the reductions as a reason to INCREASE the number of puppies and kittens they breed to make up any shortfall they might experience financially.

Either way it is more suffering for the innocent who won't even know what is happening to then, let alone why.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

CRL said:


> *Here are the key points from today's Budget...*
> 
> *Welfare*
> 
> Housing benefit - This will be scrapped for 18 - 21 year olds


To clarify this point - the housing benefit has NOT been scrapped for this age group, it has been amended so that applicants do not AUTOMATICALLY qualify. They need to be earning or learning to qualify although I would like to think that decisions will be made on a case-to-case basis. I do appreciate the need to get away from abusive parents (for example) and this is why I hope they don't use a 'one fit for all' approach. I do agree, however, that social housing benefit should not be given to just all and sundry who see it as a good way of getting away from parents who are nagging at them to try & find a job or go to college.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

It was me who mentioned the animals, it will happen, es[pecially if for any reason people hve to go into private renting


IncaThePup said:


> I'm surprised on a Pet Lovers forum that no-one has mentioned the effects on people with Pets? Think one person has briefly but can't find the post again to quote that bit. I mentioned it before (not on this post in Dog Chat I think) but was told it wouldn't make any difference to how many pets would be abandoned cos their owners were being made homeless or just didn't have enough to feed them and pay for their care.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I agree with social housing tenants earning over 30k a year paying the market rate. I know someone who earns 45k and they live in a council house and get their rent subsidised. It's about time this unfairness stopped!


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

I'm dreading the change over to PIP as if I lose a significant amount I'm stuck. (especially if Inca's still here by then) as I'm having to find an extra £200 every other month to cover a home visit and 2 months of previcox for her. As I'd cancelled her insurance last year when she was really ill not thinking she was going to even make it to JJ's 2nd birthday the following month, let alone her 14th birthday the following year!...but it's not just that its the little things gradually adding up..the gardener charges more this year so I've an extra £10 a month to find for him, BT is meant to going up by £10 plus on top of that having to find 10% of the remaining rent ... thats gonna bump that DD bill from £68 to closer to over £100 a month. 

At the minute I'm also desperately trying to clear my card before the changeover, as I needed a new scooter this year, without a scooter my dogs don't get walked and believe me, it works out cheaper to get a scooter to last for several years then pay dog walkers every day for 2 walks a day for the next 3 or more years! ..and besides I need to get to shops too. Think I'm gonna have to venture to Aldi more often for their 7p tin of beans and live off those! 

In the meantime I'm just hoping they don't get round to me until next year and nothing else majorily expensive breaks down.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Iheartcats said:


> I agree with social housing tenants earning over 30k a year paying the market rate. I know someone who earns 45k and they live in a council house and get their rent subsidised. It's about time this unfairness stopped!


No doubt I will get heavily flamed for this but, anyone earning £45k should not be in social housing full stop!! The whole point of social housing is to help those at the the rump end of life get themselves sorted out and back on their feet. Once this has been achieved, and a reasonable wage is being earned, then they should move over into private renting thus allowing someone else to get the same chance of recovery they had.

Folks need to start realising that social housing is NOT (or should not be) for life.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

jaycee05 said:


> It was me who mentioned the animals, it will happen, es[pecially if for any reason people hve to go into private renting


Sorry jaycee - this is a long thread and I missed your contribution.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

MoggyBaby said:


> No doubt I will get heavily flamed for this but, anyone earning £45k should not be in social housing full stop!! The whole point of social housing is to help those at the the rump end of life get themselves sorted out and back on their feet. Once this has been achieved, and a reasonable wage is beaing earned, then they should move over into private renting thus allowing someone else to get the same chance of recovery they had.
> 
> Folks need to start realising that social housing is NOT (or should not be) for life.


No - it shouldn't be an automatic right nor for life if people are fortunate enough to achieve a decent income. AND it shouldn't be bliddy well sold off at reduced rates either - apart from anything else, this means that a good proportion of it ends up in the hands of private landlords.

Social housing should be decent, affordable - and kept as one of the COUNTRY'S assets - not sold off to individuals.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

rona said:


> It's going up in October and again in April next year, by which time it will have gone up 50p to £7.20


well im not 25 yet so wont go up for me which is unfair


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

MrRustyRead said:


> well im not 25 yet so wont go up for me which is unfair


I agree - it is not fair!!!

When I first started working full time, I was only 17 and so got paid almost nothing. The lassie I worked alongside was 21 so got full pay. Yet our manager openly acknowledged that I was the better, and more hard-working, of the 2 of us yet got paid so much less.

There are certain jobs where you are 'learning' for a few years before being considered qualified enough to be a senior staff member but there are others where little training is required and so pay should be the same across the board. This is where young people are being exploited and this leads them to thinking why should they bother, they may as well stay on the dole than be paid the same money for a hard slog and being treated like [email protected] at the same time by other members of staff. I don't agree with this attitude but can see why some people take that view point.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> No doubt I will get heavily flamed for this but, anyone earning £45k should not be in social housing full stop!! The whole point of social housing is to help those at the the rump end of life get themselves sorted out and back on their feet. Once this has been achieved, and a reasonable wage is beaing earned, then they should move over into private renting thus allowing someone else to get the same chance of recovery they had.
> 
> Folks need to start realising that social housing is NOT (or should not be) for life.


I agree where people are fit and well and able to be able to move back into work and onto an higher income. but as someone who used to work and pay national insurance and then finding myself with a progressive neurological conditions for which there's no cure or hope of recovery from, I would be homeless if I could not stay in social housing.

What annoyed me is I was ASSESSED as needing this extra space, this level of adaptions etc in 2004. I waited 2 years for my current bungalow to be built as there was nothing. I lived next to a 'wheelchair bungalow' ironically where no members of the family where actually in a wheelchair.. I'm not disputing one of them might not have been able to manage stairs but what about a GF flat or regular bungalow instead of taking up one specially adapted for a wheelchair user? as there's so few built) Anyway I moved here in 2006, after having to collect copious amounts of paperwork to prove I'd need a wheelchair for life I was amazed to find my neighbour in the second WC bungalow next door walking round the garden without any walking aids at all, she was able to do this the full 8 yrs she lived there! Her wheelchair was kept in the shed! (I've seen her dragging it out!) She now seems to have moved out.

A few days ago another woman was looking in the windows, she had a young girl with her (about 10-11) neither were obviously wheelchair users, but she could be looking for another family member so I'll hold my judgement to see who moves in and if any of them are actually using a wheelchair. It just seems a shame as the bungalows cost so much for HA to be letting people use it as a regular bungalow when there's still so many people in wheelchairs desperate for an home that could really give them their independence back. Especially if they sell it to someone (part own, some of the properties around here are with same HA) who could just as easily manage in a regular bungalow with a level access shower instead of a bath etc. Does that mean they're even less likely to build new properties that are specifically wheelchair adapted if they're just gonna put people in that can walk anyway? ..as it's not fair to those who are genuinely full time wheelchair users and to whom these homes can be the difference between them being independent or not?

Also know someone else full time wheelchair user who was been able to work for many years due to the Independent Living fund helping to pay for assistants, that's stopped, the company have decided they can't afford to keep her on as their unwilling to pay an assistants wages for her themselves so she's now unemployed and facing spending her days waiting for social services to decide to turn up and help her get dressed! Unfortunately she doesn't have an assistance dog to help and there's now an average 5 yr wait. I can't bear to think what my life would be like if I had to give up JJ now fully trained and acting as both my ears and an extra pair of hands for me everyday.


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

If you took home £30k a year and laid £750 pcm rent then that leaves you about £1750 per month for everything else. If they can't survive on that then to be honest the problem lies closer to home. How is it right that I work full time, am entitled to no support yet my tax allows people on more than double my income to get cheap rent?


silvi said:


> But it's not the national average if you live in an area where rents are sky high.
> Social housing has allowed ordinary, working class people to live and work in these areas, along with their friends and families. But measures like this will move people away from high rent areas and cause ghetto areas in others.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

I don't get anywhere near 30K a year! ..even on highest rate DLA ..problem is people believe what they read in papers... it was saying other day the guy who inspired the Tunisia gunman was living in UK on £48,000 a year benefits in a million pound london council house! The guy was photographed walking to his car (no walking aids which is parked in a disabled park as he claims both he and his wife is disabled so they are exempt from the cap or something.... why isn't anyone checking up on him and adjusting their benefits?? For one, he shouldn't be on the highest rate if he can walk down the steps of his mansion to his car with no walking aids whatsoever! 

And that Yon guy who was on telly a few nights ago openly admitting to stealing food and coming to get money for him and his kids (who aren't even in the country) to send back home to pay for him to have a nice big house in Romania!! 

People claiming British pensions and winter fuel allowances whilst they're living abroad! ..If they don't live here they shouldn't get any money from this govt..They should be claiming it from the country they have moved to. Our Govt could save a fortune there!!


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

.


negative creep said:


> If you took home £30k a year and laid £750 pcm rent then that leaves you about £1750 per month for everything else. If they can't survive on that then to be honest the problem lies closer to home. How is it right that I work full time, am entitled to no support yet my tax allows people on more than double my income to get cheap rent?


I earn more than £30000 a year and there is no way take home pay for that amount would be £2,500. It would be less than that.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Jobeth said:


> .
> 
> I earn more than £30000 a year and there is no way take home pay for that amount would be £2,500. It would be less than that.


Negative Creep forgot to allow for tax and insurance I think.....


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

negative creep said:


> If you took home £30k a year and laid £750 pcm rent then that leaves you about £1750 per month for everything else. If they can't survive on that then to be honest the problem lies closer to home. How is it right that I work full time, am entitled to no support yet my tax allows people on more than double my income to get cheap rent?


You didn't allow for tax and insurance deductions, but even so, you try to rent a property through an agent and you will have to prove that your take home pay means that you pay less than a third of your net income on your rent. If you cannot prove that, you will need a guarantor or may simply be refused the property.

Taking net pay on £30,000 a year means that tenants would be paying over that amount.

But in any case, when a tenant takes on the rental of a property, they usually rent within their means, and that involves calculating the rent and any increases over the years. What no one can account for is a sudden rise of £300 or more per month. It would cripple most families.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jobeth said:


> .
> 
> I earn more than £30000 a year and there is no way take home pay for that amount would be £2,500. It would be less than that.


£1,957.27


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

booo! public sector workers get shafted for yet another year!
Its working out _soooo_ well in the hospitals too. Most people know you can get more money working for a private agency so why work for the NHS!?
Consequently wards are being run by random agency nurses who range from being good to totally appalling at their jobs with no continuity at all coz frankly they can get payed double what they would earn with the NHS. oh, and they are never out of work coz the hospitals have to hire thousands of them to fill staffing shortages.
Talk about your false economies!


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> booo! public sector workers get shafted for yet another year!
> Its working out _soooo_ well in the hospitals too. Most people know you can get more money working for a private agency so why work for the NHS!?
> Consequently wards are being run by random agency nurses who range from being good to totally appalling at their jobs with no continuity at all coz frankly they can get payed double what they would earn with the NHS. oh, and they are never out of work coz the hospitals have to hire thousands of them to fill staffing shortages.
> Talk about your false economies!


Exactly this ^^^^!!!! Pay nursing staff a DECENT wage, worthy of the quality of work they do, and they would have more full-time employed staff in the hospitals and less expensive, uninterested, agency staff. In fact, get rid of the expensive & uninterested agency staff and you'd be able to AFFORD more full-time nurses making the job less stressfull all around.

But hey..... Apparently this was the best budget ever........


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

silvi said:


> You didn't allow for tax and insurance deductions, but even so, you try to rent a property through an agent and you will have to prove that your take home pay means that you pay less than a third of your net income on your rent. If you cannot prove that, you will need a guarantor or may simply be refused the property.
> 
> Taking net pay on £30,000 a year means that tenants would be paying over that amount.
> 
> But in any case, when a tenant takes on the rental of a property, they usually rent within their means, and that involves calculating the rent and any increases over the years. What no one can account for is a sudden rise of £300 or more per month. It would cripple most families.


My rent is half my net income so I have to use my parents as a guarantor. Once you include Council Tax, bills etc it's more like 80% of my income just to live, so that means no holidays, meals out, alcohol, new clothes, Sky TV, nights on the town, saving for retirement and so on. I've never been entitled to a single penny in benefits, but since I'm a childless British male in full time employment no one cares about my demographic as that wouldn't make good headlines. Still, at least it's given me the motivation to pursue a new career as it's the only way of moving up. Social housing should be for those in need, although I'd never be entitled to it even though I earn so little. So, and this is nothing personal against anyone, I am glad that the tax I pay every month will no longer be paying for the rent and upkeep of people on double my wages (net or gross). Also the changes won't come into effect until 2017, so plenty of time to prepare


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I'm so pleased to hear that benefits are being capped for two children. At last the pound notes are being pulled from under their scrounging arses.

I was reading the mail online about a single jobless mother of 8 who is now bleating on about the prospect of being made homeless due to her benefits being cut but she should have thought about that before having so many kids! 

My husband and I stopped at two as that is how many we could afford to raise with me being a stay at home mum at the time.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Personally I think it was a very fair budget for all
I live in social housing and already pay the 'going' rate, I have to top up my HB and CTB, so why shouldnt others

but

I agree, no social housing tenants should have a right to buy, IF the tenants can afford to buy then they should be given the money as a deposit, on a non social housing house, and free up the housing stock for others in need. 
For example we, the local authority, obviously allwed, as did others, the right tobuy under maggie etc and now consequently, are in a position, were we have no 3 bed housing stock available, made worse since bedroom tax came in and people downsized, and have no housing stock social or HA being built in the next 5 years 
so, families are having to stay in 2 bed houses with mixed gender children. 
So much so, I have told my neighbour that, when her son hits 10, my son/s shouldve, please god, moved out, and we can do a swap, just so shes in the right size house for childrens needs [2, one of each]

I love the fact that VED is being changed and all duty will be put back into the roads

Those people cheering for the 'living wage' are stupid if they think it is not going to have backlash, goods and food prices will rise, as will utilities and petrol
companies will be more willing to take on younger people, as the 'living wage' doesnt apply to those under 25, meaning it will be even harder for those 25yrs plus to get a job
smaller companies will close, meaning less high street footfall and diversity and more conglomerates moving in
small villages and towns will become ghost towns full of takeaways, estate agencies,charity and betting shops

However
I would have liked to have seen, and bear in mind I am a benefit user, through illness, have one son who is also a benefits user through illness, and one son who is on zero hour, minimum wage job that pays £2 more than if he had stayed on benefits, so loses ALL other entitlements to accompanying benefits
.
Zero hour contracts abolished, so people can have a settled home life and settle down [ you cant rent round here on zero hour contract, even with a guarantor, nor, obviously, get a mortgage]

child benefit/tax credits removed for any child that is non dom, why should anyone pay for kids to live the highlife abroad, just cos Mummy/Daddy work here

winter fuel allowance means tested [even the queen can have it if she wanted to]

no winter fuel allowance given to ex pats or those who spend winter months in warmer climates

UK's benefits, to any country that has its own space programme or nuclear programme, abolished, they should use the money to help their own people, its about time reparation monies stopped

Drug and alcohol dependents on esa or jsa, have to provide a pee test each and every time, before being granted benefits, and then given 50% of benefit in food/clothing stamps and 25% on gas/electric coupons
Also anyone drug/alcohol/morbidly obese, *not be allowed* to claim esa or PiP - these are lifestyle choices, not illnesses and therefor should be on JSA and forced into looking for work

Parent/s on benefits, any and all benefits, given their benefit in 50% food/clothing stamps and 25% in gas heating, so that their children of school age, never go cold, dirty or hungry

the bedroom tax abolished for everyone and the right for everyone, even those in private rent, to be allowed one extra bedroom, where necessary, for visitors/grandchildren to stay overnight, for some people their visitors can be a literal lifeline

Apprenticeship ages raised to upto 30, there's many over 25's that could do with learning a new trade, as an inroad to work, [especially those who took Blairs dumbed down degrees in Harry Potter et al ] but cannot apply because of the 24 limit [and many places will not take on over 19's as thats the age *THEY* have to contribute as well as the government] Also proper 3 or 5 year apprenticeships with the promise of a job at end [or old fashioned indenture ] in the shortage skills, not a 3 day course giving you an NVQ2 { I swear, in the care section especially, these days, it stands for Not Very Qualified}

All armed personnel retiring or 'coming out' being given priority, if needed, for social housing *suitable for their present needs*, and a proper reintroduction into 'civvy street' We should have no forces personnel living on the streets because of lack of help. They fought so we should repay

Family carers being acknowledged and the Carers allowance being raised inline with the living wage

I do worry a bit about, the 2 kids and your out, for child benefit/tax credits etc 
as,
having seen this at work in France, during the late 60's to late 90's, there is now a population of very aging people with no family support, and a lack of working age people to support the national infrastructure, so much so that France now pay extra, in child care costs, extra child care hours and tax rebates, to those having 2 + children
Yes, as a country, we are overcrowded anyway, but this could well backfire in 20 years time, lets face it we have an aging population as it is and cant cope now


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

Zero hours contracts can be good for some people, especially if they have another job or responsibility, but do agree they can be exploited very easily. I've noticed my work's attitude seems to be they will be very quick to tell them not to come in if they aren't needed, but if that employee isn't around when work levels are high it's a "well they obviously can't be bothered, we'll ask someone else next time" attitude


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> Personally I think it was a very fair budget for all
> I live in social housing and already pay the 'going' rate, I have to top up my HB and CTB, so why shouldnt others
> 
> but
> ...


all the above.......gets my vote


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Wife went for a shift trial, pub kitchen/waitress work, got told she could have £6.50/hr on the books or £5/hr cash in hand.......


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> Wife went for a shift trial, pub kitchen/waitress work, got told she could have £6.50/hr on the books or £5/hr cash in hand.......


Hope you reported them to the DWP?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

negative creep said:


> Hope you reported them to the DWP?


whats the point? really.....


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

negative creep said:


> Also the changes won't come into effect until 2017, so plenty of time to prepare


Enough time to pop another sprog or even two. Bet the birth rate goes up for a while


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Iheartcats said:


> I was reading the mail online about a single jobless mother of 8 who is now bleating on about the prospect of being made homeless due to her benefits being cut but she should have thought about that before having so many kids!


The 2 kids thing won't effect her will it?

I thought it was only those kids born after 2017 it applied to


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes. (Benjamin Franklin) 

What he should have added is this; 'and one should console themself with the knowledge that death, unlike taxes, does not get any worse.'


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Rona - She was whinging about the fact that her overall benefits will be slashed from £27,000 to £20,000 and she said that that will cause her family to be on the breadline.

I'm using my phone but you can find the news story on mail online.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

negative creep said:


> My rent is half my net income so I have to use my parents as a guarantor. Once you include Council Tax, bills etc it's more like 80% of my income just to live, so that means no holidays, meals out, alcohol, new clothes, Sky TV, nights on the town, saving for retirement and so on. I've never been entitled to a single penny in benefits, but since I'm a childless British male in full time employment no one cares about my demographic as that wouldn't make good headlines. Still, at least it's given me the motivation to pursue a new career as it's the only way of moving up. Social housing should be for those in need, although I'd never be entitled to it even though I earn so little. So, and this is nothing personal against anyone, I am glad that the tax I pay every month will no longer be paying for the rent and upkeep of people on double my wages (net or gross). Also the changes won't come into effect until 2017, so plenty of time to prepare


I never said that the way you were being treated, as a single working male, was fair. I don't believe that it is.
But I also don't like the politics of bitterness - the 'I can't get that, so why should they' remarks.

But I'm probably out of this thread now.
There's too much bigotry coming through and DM references.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

negative creep said:


> Still, at least it's given me the motivation to pursue a new career as it's the only way of moving up.


Well said that man . Follow the money. Always follow the money. Good luck with it.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

The budget seemed quite fair to me, though none of it actually directly affects me.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> Public sector pay - only 1% rise each year?! Outrageous!!!
> 
> That was sarcasm, sorry. 1% is more than many of us in the private sector get.  We don't go on strike about it every five minutes either.


I work in the public sector. I have had no pay rise for the last five years. Staff have been reduced so much and my worload increased so much as a result of this that it is impossible to get everything done without brignging work hom every night and at weekends. That's not unusual - I'm no different to many public sector workers. And you begruge us a 1% pay rise? You begruge us strking to highlight our plight? On the other hand, my OH works in the private sector - he has had a pay rise of between 1&5% every year during these last 5 years.



Colliebarmy said:


> Id also like to see ALL benefits means tested, why give heating allowance to the rich (for instance) or OAP's living abroad?


I agree.



noushka05 said:


> For those who haven't heard yet, heres the key points in Osbornes Budget.


Brilliant Noush - the truth behind the hype!



negative creep said:


> If you took home £30k a year and laid £750 pcm rent then that leaves you about £1750 per month for everything else. If they can't survive on that then to be honest the problem lies closer to home. How is it right that I work full time, am entitled to no support yet my tax allows people on more than double my income to get cheap rent?


Earning 30K a year is not taking home 30K a year. IF you earn 30K a year, you will take home roughly around 20K a year.

As for student grants now becoming loans - education should be free for everyone, not a privilege for the rich.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Satori said:


> . Follow the money. Always follow the money. Good luck with it.


Does anyone else find this quite sad?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I think it sends out the right message, if you want money go and earn it....


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

rona said:


> Does anyone else find this quite sad?


Only sad people.


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## negative creep (Dec 20, 2012)

silvi said:


> I never said that the way you were being treated, as a single working male, was fair. I don't believe that it is.
> But I also don't like the politics of bitterness - the 'I can't get that, so why should they' remarks.
> 
> But I'm probably out of this thread now.
> There's too much bigotry coming through and DM references.


It wasn't intended as an attack on your or anyone else here, nor am I trying to fish for sympathy. My main point is that there are plenty of people who have it tough and aren't even entitled to benefits but this seems somewhat overlooked by both left and right wings. I would desperately love to have kids of my own but certainly couldn't afford it for many years, so it does get rather frustrating to watch people having several then moaning the government won't pay them extra


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Im a taxi driver, our meter rate was last updated in 2012, meanwhile everything i use for my trade has gone up, so in effect my pay rate hasnt gone up 1% annually its gone down each and every year


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Satori said:


> Only sad people.


I'm not sad at all, quite the opposite  
I'm what most would class as poor, I've never claimed benefits, though I think I could have done
I've never felt the need to chase money to keep me happy


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> I think it sends out the right message, if you want money go and earn it....


Maybe I read it wrong. To me it sounded like money is above all else


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

rona said:


> Maybe I read it wrong. To me it sounded like money is above all else


Have to say, if I was to marry again, not only would the bloke need to be certified sane by three different doctors
but
sod love, it dont pay the bills nor does it keep a roof over your head
its whats in the bank that would sway me

sorry but die hard realist these days


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> sod love, it dont pay the bills nor does it keep a roof over your head


Well I certainly agree with this 

I just think the pursuit of money is what made our nasty corrupt society


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

What I cant understand (perhaps someone can explain to me) if the living wage is going to be £9.20 by 2020 surely in 5 years that will be diddly squat,I just don't understand why they are crowing about it.


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## Mundane (Jun 9, 2014)

I'm happy with the budget


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

suewhite said:


> What I cant understand (perhaps someone can explain to me) if the living wage is going to be £9.20 by 2020 surely in 5 years that will be diddly squat,I just don't understand why they are crowing about it.


It will go up by almost 40% in 5 years.

in the previous 10 years with Labour and Tories with Liberals in tow, It only managed to increase by 30%


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

rona said:


> Well I certainly agree with this
> 
> I just think the pursuit of money is what made our nasty corrupt society


Agreed and Maggie is to thank for that
where our parents [and us] were happy with second hand and hand me downs and using all the food we bought

it suddenly became I must have it and have it now, credit cards maxed throw away society and ready meals


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## Mundane (Jun 9, 2014)

mrs phas said:


> Agreed and Maggie is to thank for that
> where our parents [and us] were happy with second hand and hand me downs and using all the food we bought
> 
> it suddenly became I must have it and have it now, credit cards maxed throw away society and ready meals


I've nothing against ready meals but I hate the must have it now attitude!


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

This bollox about money not being important is just self-delusion. If it helps keep you happy with your lot then, fine, keep drinking the cool-aid. But don't knock being well-off until you try it.  Trust me, life's a sh1t sandwich, and the more bread you have, the less sh1t you taste.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> it suddenly became I must have it and have it now, credit cards maxed throw away society and ready meals


Not sure how that relates to the discussion about money. Aren't maxed out credit cards and ready meals, by definition, for poor people?


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## Mundane (Jun 9, 2014)

Satori said:


> This bollox about money not being important is just self-delusion. If it helps keep you happy with your lot then, fine, keep drinking the cool-aid. But don't knock being well-off until you try it.  Trust me, life's a sh1t sandwich, and the more bread you have, the less sh1t you taste.


Amen to that sista! (Or brutha if you're a dude lol)


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Satori said:


> This bollox about money not being important is just self-delusion. If it helps keep you happy with your lot then, fine, keep drinking the cool-aid. But don't knock being well-off until you try it.  Trust me, life's a sh1t sandwich, and the more bread you have, the less sh1t you taste.


As I said rather sad.

Know plenty of rich people quite well, a couple of millionaires too, most to worried about making and keeping it, work ridiculous hours, and what for..........to die or end up in a posh old folks with pennies in the bank

Just thought, The time in my life when I had most money, a partner that earned rather a lot and lived in a very nice house was the most miserable few years of my life and when I got out I was homeless but happy


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

rona said:


> As I said rather sad.
> 
> Know plenty of rich people quite well, a couple of millionaires too, most to worried about making and keeping it, work ridiculous hours, and what for..........to die or end up in a posh old folks with pennies in the bank


Well I am certainly not rich, depending on ones definition. I worked smart rather than hard, always moving to the the best paying jobs I could find not caring what nor for whom. From 44 to 48 I reduced my working hours to about 10 hours per week plus a bit of travel. Then I retired fully at 48 with enough money to live well for the rest of my days. OH retired too of course. I am as happy as the proverbial pig in sh1t.

I'll just have to take your word for it that I would be happier working, commuting, worrying about mortgages, bills and stuff like that.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> Agreed and Maggie is to thank for that
> where our parents [and us] were happy with second hand and hand me downs and using all the food we bought
> 
> it suddenly became I must have it and have it now, credit cards maxed throw away society and ready meals


What, you think there was no wish for things pre-Thatcher? it may have been "no credit" for many but provi were lending and selling "tick" 40 years ago


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> Not sure how that relates to the discussion about money. Aren't maxed out credit cards and ready meals, by definition, for poor people?


If your truly poor,
rather than just not having enough to have a drink, smoke, takeaway etc
your credit score prevents you getting a card
and
ready meals cost far too much, I can make a meal for 4 of us for £1.50 and not skimping on portion size either

So living in the real world, rather than being flippant, isnt quite how you think


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> What, you think there was no wish for things pre-Thatcher? it may have been "no credit" for many but provi were lending and selling "tick" 40 years ago


Course there were, as you say provi and tallyman, along with any old iron and rag and bone have always been there, and probably always will be
comes to something that we have ragman and scrappy down our street twice a month even now


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Satori said:


> This bollox about money not being important is just self-delusion. If it helps keep you happy with your lot then, fine, keep drinking the cool-aid. But don't knock being well-off until you try it.  Trust me, life's a sh1t sandwich, and the more bread you have, the less sh1t you taste.


Of course money is important. In our society you can't get along without it; and the more you have the easier your life is. In some cases it is a matter of life and death - literally. For example, if we didn't have private health care for my OH, he most probably would have had a heart attack whilst waiting for treatment on the NHS.

What is sad that we are now in a society where many of those who have money don't seem to care very much about those who don't. And it's that "I.m alright Jack, so f--- you" attitude that Thatcherism started.



Colliebarmy said:


> What, you think there was no wish for things pre-Thatcher? it may have been "no credit" for many but provi were lending and selling "tick" 40 years ago


Of course there was a wish for things. Of course there was the "tick" and "the back of the book" at the co-op. But pre-Thatcher it was more regulated and controlled and to a much lesser degree - you didn't get tick if you didn't pay off your previous slate, and if you wanted a loan, you had to at least save up a deposit (a third if you were buying a car)

Thatcherism, with it's "I can have everything now" philosophy, was the turning point. Thatcher turned our society from a manufacturing based society to a money based society, and as a result of that people were actively encouraged to buy now and pay later. You didn't need a deposit to buy things on credit cards, and credit card companies actively encouraged spending with adverts on tv and upping credit limits without even being asked. Peple felt safe in buying things on credit, knowing they could have things now and pay for them in stages because they were working.

It was only when Thatcher started to decimate the steel industry and the coal industry and to sell off our national industries that people realised just what that "paying" meant. People lost their jobs, then their homes, became bankrupt - and those fortunate enough not to be caught in that trap began to see themselves as somehow "better" than the less fortunate, until today we have the kind of society where the rich don't really care about the poor.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

I have just been reading this. It makes me think seriously about my future. It is taking me 4 years and 2 months (part time as I need to work) to complete my nursing degree, is it worth it? .....

Dear nursing colleagues,
With the announcement of a 1% pay rise each year for the next 4 years, at the same time as a 38% increase for unskilled workers (over ...25), now is the time for us to actually think about who our first duty of care is to.
For me, it's my family - the people I provide for. By a long distance.
By 2020, the hourly rate for a new band 5 will be £11.57. Is all the responsibility worth £2.57 more than working in retail or hospitality? You'd still get interaction with people there, without the urge to skip your lunch, go home late and never take back the time you're owed. You'd also not have to pay the NMC(£120 per year) or a toothless union who do nothing more than issue weak statements before meekly accepting whatever is offered.
If the current proposed rate of pay increase continues beyond 2020, then in 2024 the living wage will surpass the bottom of the band 5 AFC scale.
Is your training (whether degree or not), your experience and your skill really worth as little as this?
Don't forget that unsocial enhancements are also under threat. Tesco pay enhancements for unsocial working. What's more valuable to society - nursing care or neatly stacked shelves?
In addition to this, our role is continually being extended. I have no issue with this, provided we are financially rewarded for extra duties. For too long the NHS has been supported by goodwill. Where has that got us? The answer to that is simply "nowhere"
I urge every single one of you to think carefully if we are balloted on industrial action. We need to value ourselves and our profession and actually show some professional pride and unity on this or we will forever be viewed as a soft touch and a profession which accepts being perennially undervalued.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> So living in the real world, rather than being flippant, isnt quite how you think


If you don't like the real world, change it and make a new reality for yourself. We are all a product of our life choices.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

ClaireLouise said:


> I have just been reading this......
> 
> Dear nursing colleagues,
> With the announcement of a 1% pay rise each year for the next 4 years, at the same time as a 38% increase for unskilled workers (over ...25), now is the time for us to actually think about who our first duty of care is to.
> ...


Fully support this sentiment. Nurses have to do something to put upward pressure on pay. There is enough money in the overall NHS budget to pay decent salaries if so much were not wasted on overtime and agency staff. Imo, the answer lies in pushing out decision making on pay to the same people who have budget spending responsibility. Central government should play no part. Let the market work and a skill which we know to be in shortage will increase in price commensurately.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

So this child tax stuff how is it going to work? Will the people who already have more than 2 kids lose money or will it be people having more than 2 kids after its come it effect? I don't have kids but I know someone that's never worked and keeps popping kids out willy nilly and still wants more even though she has 4.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

CavalierOwner said:


> So this child tax stuff how is it going to work? Will the people who already have more than 2 kids lose money or will it be people having more than 2 kids after its come it effect? I don't have kids but I know someone that's never worked and keeps popping kids out willy nilly and still wants more even though she has 4.


I think for people on benefits it will cover more children if they were born before 2017. What it will do with new claimants that have supported maybe 4 of their own children until redundancy or whatever after 2017, but had the kids before then!!!!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> If you don't like the real world, change it and make a new reality for yourself.We are all a product of our life choices.


You know what, I wrote a long answer to that, disproving the last remark especially
but
I cant be bothered
Im off to make a silk purse instead xx


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

rona said:


> Does anyone else find this quite sad?


Yes - I do.

Money isn't the be-all and end-all.

We need money to live, and we all want a decent standard of living - however, there are many people who have more than enough, not only for their own immediate needs but for future likely needs, and a lot of them are the ones who insist that people on benefits are shiftless idle layabouts who don't deserve even a clean piece of newspaper to sleep under! Many of them tend to be totally blind to the inequities and injustices in our society.

The gap between rich and poor in this country is getting bigger all the time, and many overly-well paid people don't actually contribute to the healthiness of society, or indeed in any way, because over a certain point, money just makes itself - and worse than that, because they are highly paid/ridiculously wealthy they develop the idea that they are better than other people, rules don't apply to them, and they can do what they like.

Even on this forum one poster complained about something I'd said with the superlative argument "I bet I have more money coming in than you ever have" or words to that effect. Well, they probably do - doesn't make them a better person than me, though - just richer.

Ironically, those societies which function best, and where people are happiest (and this applies to those at the top of the wealth scale as well as at the bottom) are those where there is less of a gap between rich and poor (read "The Spirit Level" by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett). Everything is affected by the level of equality in a society, rather than the wealth of that society (once we have covered the basics like a place to live and food on the table). Societies with a big gap between rich and poor are bad for EVERYONE in them.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Satori said:


> Well I am certainly not rich, depending on ones definition. I worked smart rather than hard, always moving to the the best paying jobs I could find not caring what nor for whom. From 44 to 48 I reduced my working hours to about 10 hours per week plus a bit of travel. Then I retired fully at 48 with enough money to live well for the rest of my days. OH retired too of course. I am as happy as the proverbial pig in sh1t.
> 
> I'll just have to take your word for it that I would be happier working, commuting, worrying about mortgages, bills and stuff like that.


Good for you - but it often strikes me that people who say "Well I am certainly not rich", are usually very well-off indeed. I've never yet met a wealthy person who thought that they had quite enough.

You are fortunate to be able to retire so early, with (I assume) good health - and okay, you worked for it, but you must have had opportunities many people could only dream off.

I don't think anyone here is of the opinion that poverty is a romantic ideal - of course it isn't - it's bloody horrible! But once our real needs are met (as opposed to our wants), we don't really "need" as much as we think. As poverty is relative (in world terms, almost everyone in the UK is rich), the more things become desirable in a society, the poorer its members think they are if they haven't got them - unless they choose to step off the bandwagon that says we must all have new X, Y and Z every year.

It is humanity's obsession with stuff that is destroying our planet - everything becomes secondary to profit and possession.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

lostbear said:


> As poverty is relative (in world terms, almost everyone in the UK is rich)


You have to be rich, relative to many other countries just to exist (roof and food) in the UK.

I would be very wealthy in Kenya but not in UK


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

rona said:


> I think for people on benefits it will cover more children if they were born before 2017. What it will do with new claimants that have supported maybe 4 of their own children until redundancy or whatever after 2017, but had the kids before then!!!!


It all confuses me! Isn't child tax the money you get when you work and have kids? So it's actually the workers being effected rather than the people that don't work and have multiple children? If you don't work and have kids you don't get child tax do you, it's child benefit?


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> If your truly poor,
> rather than just not having enough to have a drink, smoke, takeaway etc
> your credit score prevents you getting a card
> and
> ...


I already have cards from when I worked so have been lucky there but the interest is high so I only use them for vet emergencies and equipment that I need and wouldn't be able to buy otherwise. My limit isn't that high compared to most but it's enough for me to be able to get a decent scooter or cover an emergency vet bill for a couple of grand. That doesn't mean I'm not struggling to pay for other basic bills especially when the card had to be used to full capacity to cover emergencies and equipment and takes me a good while to pay it off.

I was brought up on home cooking too though I'm not as good as my mum was, I can do basic stuff like make a big shepherds pie for price of a ready made one but then split mine into 6 portions and freeze the others. If I'm having a bad day pain wise and can't manage to cook a meal from scratch I can just get a portion out to defrost and cook in the microwave, so it's quick but still homemade.

I do same with a big pan of bolognaise, chilli con carne, curry, stew etc in winter to portion up and freeze and use for several meals and works out cheaper than buying the ready meal for 1 or 2 version.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

One thing HMG could reign in is the Motability scheme, it seems to have gotten way out of hand...


Over 600,000 customers currently choose Motability for their mobility needs and 97% would recommend the Scheme to their friends. Around two-thirds of Motability’s customers drive their own vehicle, but non-drivers can get a car as a passenger. Similarly, parents and caregivers can also apply on behalf of a disabled child from the age of three.

Once their application has been accepted, the customer uses all, or part, of their allowance to pay for their vehicle for the period of the contract hire agreement. Over 450 models of car are currently available to lease with no advance payment – larger or more expensive models may entail this additional cost.

The largest fleet operator in Europe and the largest supplier of used cars in the trade, Motability Operations is owned by four major clearing banks – Barclays, Lloyds TSB, HSBC and the Royal Bank of Scotland.

Motability Operations’ annual turnover is around £990 million with assets worth £2.5 billion. Any surpluses are continually reinvested in the business. Motability Operations sells over 130,000 used cars a year and the company's car purchases account for approximately ten percent of total new car sales in the UK. Since the Scheme started, over three million cars have been supplied.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> One thing HMG could reign in is the Motability scheme, it seems to have gotten way out of hand...
> 
> Over 600,000 customers currently choose Motability for their mobility needs and 97% would recommend the Scheme to their friends. Around two-thirds of Motability's customers drive their own vehicle, but non-drivers can get a car as a passenger. Similarly, parents and caregivers can also apply on behalf of a disabled child from the age of three.
> 
> ...


Why reign it in? It seems to be working very successfully from what you've written above.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> Why reign it in? It seems to be working very successfully from what you've written above.


its gotten out of hand, it was never meant to be the biggest UK fleet!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> One thing HMG could reign in is the Motability scheme, it seems to have gotten way out of hand...
> 
> Over 600,000 customers currently choose Motability for their mobility needs and 97% would recommend the Scheme to their friends. Around two-thirds of Motability's customers drive their own vehicle, but non-drivers can get a car as a passenger. Similarly, parents and caregivers can also apply on behalf of a disabled child from the age of three.
> 
> ...


so then people like me, who have only 20% mobility and have been assessed as walking at approx half the pace of A.N. Normal-Bloggs, for less than half the distance would never go out at all
yes at the moment I can drive, but no one knows. least of all me, when that will stop being an option and then I will have to be a passenger and impinge upon friends whenever I want to go anywhere
What you also fail to realise [or just ignore] is that IF you name someone else as the driver, they are only *legally *allowed to drive the vehicle *when *you are a passenger *or *they are doing something, like shopping, picking up prescriptions etc

One of my sons friends has it as a passenger, she can walk miles, at a good pace, but being middling on the ASD spectrum, she needs to be driven everywhere for her, and others, safety

I wouldnt wish you my disability for a day, so why make my life harder? PiPs is hard enough to be assessed for, its not the cakewalk everyone seems to think it is


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> so then people like me, who have only 20% mobility and have been assessed as walking at approx half the pace of A.N. Normal-Bloggs, for less than half the distance would never go out at all
> yes at the moment I can drive, but no one knows. least of all me, when that will stop being an option and then I will have to be a passenger and impinge upon friends whenever I want to go anywhere
> 
> One of my sons friends has it as a passenger, she can walk miles, at a good pace, but being middling on the ASD spectrum, she needs to be driven everywhere for her, and others, safety
> ...


The scheme could save millions if put to tender, with one brand, one model, choice of colours, most huge fleets work this way, not Motability, unless you know different? would you not get in a Ford or if the winning contractor was Hyundai, one of those? servicing and parts would also be discounted on a huge scale, instead it all seems like many many many private sales, which in reality it isnt, it has one funding source


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> The scheme could save millions if put to tender, with one brand, one model, choice of colours, most huge fleets work this way, not Motability, unless you know different? would you not get in a Ford or if the winning contractor was Hyundai, one of those? servicing and parts would also be discounted on a huge scale, instead it all seems like many many many private sales, which in reality it isnt, it has one funding source


seeing as I chose a skoda roomster for ease
I dont think Id be picky


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> The scheme could save millions if put to tender, with one brand, one model, choice of colours, most huge fleets work this way, not Motability, unless you know different? would you not get in a Ford or if the winning contractor was Hyundai, one of those? servicing and parts would also be discounted on a huge scale, instead it all seems like many many many private sales, which in reality it isnt, it has one funding source


I know that the VW Scirocco used to be on the mobility scheme and having owned one (not via the scheme) they are not easy for less mobile people to get out and about it and certainly are not too practical. Not sure if it's still part of the scheme tho. Always seemed an odd choice but then I did wonder if it was the carers that were driving them....


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

stuaz said:


> I know that the VW Scirocco used to be on the mobility scheme and having owned one (not via the scheme) they are not easy for less mobile people to get out and about it and certainly are not too practical. Not sure if it's still part of the scheme tho. Always seemed an odd choice but then I did wonder if it was the carers that were driving them....


I agree
I couldve had a Alpha Romeo Guillietta [sp?]
I took one look and thought if i get in there ill never get out again
these sought of cars really shouldnt be on the list of a scheme aimed at disabled people

Mind I got a shock when I found out I had to pay extra for a spare wheel [which i have no hope of ever fitting, so thanks for free RAC]
How can a spare wheel be an optional extra??


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> You know what, I wrote a long answer to that, disproving the last remark especially
> but
> I cant be bothered
> Im off to make a silk purse instead xx


I'll put it more simply for you then and leave it at that before I run out of pearls.

The fact that you can make a meal for 4 for £1.50 is indeed impressive. The fact that you have allowed yourself to be in a position where that might be a useful skill, not so much.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

rona said:


> You have to be rich, relative to many other countries just to exist (roof and food) in the UK.
> 
> I would be very wealthy in Kenya but not in UK


I can volunteer the air-miles


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Satori said:


> I'll put it more simply for you then and leave it at that before I run out of pearls.
> 
> The fact that you can make a meal for 4 for £1.50 is indeed impressive. The fact that you have allowed yourself to be in a position where that might be a useful skill, not so much.


:Jawdrop:Jawdrop blimey I think that is a skill we could all do with learning. None of us really know what lies ahead for us these days, even the aristocracy fall on hard times


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Satori said:


> I can volunteer the air-miles


I thought your sig pic was the Baphoment of Mendes. I'm starting to think it's a photo of you.

Nice wings, BTW


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> Because of the living wage ??


Initially I though what a brilliant idea, something that has been needed for a long time. However this comes in to play by 2020 five years from now. The current minimum wage is around £7.00 per hour which will increase to around £9.00 per hour by 2020. Its merely the minimum wage re-named.

People need a living wage for full time work, not the minimum wage propped up with benefits. Lets get our dignity back.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> its gotten out of hand, it was never meant to be the biggest UK fleet!


But it has expanded in ratio to demand and is paying for itself - so why reign it in? All that would mean is that some people would not get the motbility help they need.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I seldom venture into general chat and usually run away because of the fights but this thread has stayed civil and is very interesting getting a lot of points of view over.

I have no idea if the budget will make a lot of difference to anyone but I do not see a lot wrong with it. I think the uni grants v loans is difficult. So many youngsters go to uni nowadays just because rather than to get a meaningful qualification. Why on earth should taxpayers fund them to spend 3 years staying in the education system just because they do not know what else to do. Maybe grants should be available for those that are doing vocational degrees that will put them straight in to a profession. I very much disagree with people on here saying it is not fair that better off parents are helping their children. Of course most parents will help their children and a lot of parents save for 18 years for just that eventuality. And of course some parents earn more than others, they work harder and are in a better paid job.

We help our daughter financially when we can (she is not at uni) and we are anything but well off. I have two very well off friends who say they cannot afford another car till their daughter finishes uni. They have chosen to use their money to help her rather than spending it on themselves.

As for well off people in social housing - why on earth should they be on subsidised rent if they are in a high income bracket. I have always found this most unfair.

I have never been well off, in fact very very poor at one time but we have always muddled through and we have chosen a life style where we have worked ridiculously long hours doing something we enjoy with very little return so it was up to us but it really annoys me when people earning £30,000 plus moan that they are poor. If I had ever earned half of that I would have felt very well off. Now we are semi retired and have invested money we inherited in houses (though the mortgage takes all the rent) we are better off than ever and have a very good lifestyle but still earn a laughable amount compared with most people who do not seem able to pay their bills.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

sskmick said:


> Initially I though what a brilliant idea, something that has been needed for a long time. However this comes in to play by 2020 five years from now. The current minimum wage is around £7.00 per hour which will increase to around £9.00 per hour by 2020. Its merely the minimum wage re-named.
> 
> People need a living wage for full time work, not the minimum wage propped up with benefits. Lets get our dignity back.


Damn right!

What the government doesn't seem to realise is that the BIGGEST benefits fraudsters are those EMPLOYERS who pay such crappy wages that their staff are forced to claim benefits just to scrape an existence.

AND GET RID OF ZERO HOURS CONTRACTS!


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## sarybeagle (Nov 4, 2009)

We are worried about what's to come when these changes are implemented. 
We live in social housing, we pay full rent and CT, always have. 
We can't afford to stay here if the rent rises to market value, 2 bed properties round this post code (gu7) go for the minimum of £1200-1500 pcm. 
Thats almost triple our current rent.
We'd not qualify for housing benefits wih this increase as our entitlement to them wouldn't change. 

We currently live in a poor housing estate as we have no way of getting a mortgage deposit, for a 2 bed our way you are looking at £350k+, 10% deposit is unreachable. 
We had signed papers to move out December until I fell ill and now we live on DH salary alone. 
I'm now finding myself looking for any p/t work I can get to help when the rent increases as is our son. 
I'm tired of fighting to stay afloat in these times now.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Satori said:


> I can volunteer the air-miles


You still haven't got it have you? 

I don't need your air miles........I'm happy as I am.

Anyway, I haven't a passport


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> But it has expanded in ratio to demand and is paying for itself - so why reign it in? All that would mean is that some people would not get the motbility help they need.


How do you work out that its self-funding, its tax payer money going to private ltd companies, i see that as a one-way trip for the cash

recipients of the benefit should either get the weekly payment or literally hire a vehicle from a HMG branch, with a one make/one model offering, the new car every 3 years for low mileage users (as all the ex-motability cars i see at acuction have very few miles on them but are rarely main stream cars so lose a lot in depreciation) policy doesnt work for private ownership of a taxpayer owned vehicle, its a business based model. Cars should be changed at 75,000 miles.....

Im sure manufacturers would queue up to bid on getting the whole fleet sales for a year, shouldnt it go to the lowest bidder as with all government contracts?.....


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

rona said:


> You still haven't got it have you?
> 
> I don't need your air miles........I'm happy as I am.
> 
> Anyway, I haven't a passport


How did you get into the UK then?

lol


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> How did you get into the UK then?
> 
> lol


I was grown here


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> How do you work out that its self-funding, its tax payer money going to private ltd companies, i see that as a one-way trip for the cash
> 
> recipients of the benefit should either get the weekly payment or literally hire a vehicle from a HMG branch, with a one make/one model offering, the new car every 3 years for low mileage users


Please dont forget PIPs isnt restricted to people on benefits, you can work full time and still get them. I have four children, when I was first diagnosed they were all under 5, *and*, I was still working full time [no child care help then either, had to pay for everything], many many people in receipt of PiPs still work and therfore pay the same taxes as you [or prob more, as Im sure your self employed as a taxi driver, so can claim all sorts, down to the last pencil shaving, though Im not saying you do, of course]

what about those with families, maybe four or five children,

what about those that need a wheelchair hoist fitted, or a swivel chair, or a high framed car, or wider doors, or ramps?

carrying on your theory, we'll all be back to bright turquoise vehicles built over a motorbike chassis

Being disabled is not a lifestyle choice. *EVER*


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

They should make it means tested (DLA/PIP) I don't see why millionaires like the Nazi Scameron can claim the same amount of his son as people for whom it's their main income to live on! He seems to hate all disabled now he no longer has a disabled son they don't care if the rest of the country struggle. They seem hell bent on driving everyone to suicide to reduce the amount of benefits they have to pay out! 

It's my main income I could possibly survive on full DLA alone (as long as I didn't need any big equipment £1,000 or more) but not if that got scrapped and only had ESA. I chose not to have a car as I was gonna need £10,000 in specialist adaptions, they wanted about that much as a deposit for a 'Drive from Wheelchair Kangoo' which was going to total around £24,000 and at the time I had no idea how long I was going to be able to drive for. I was already looking at special joystick control cos holding onto the steering wheel with one arm, especially trying to turn (as was using other hand for brake/accelerator control) was making my arm shake violently. 

The first time I got scooter on finance I'd ended up paying double for it by the time the 3 yrs were up and then it had broke down and was worth nothing to go towards a new one. Still I used that time to save up enough for a replacement and chose to get the mobility part as cash too giving me more for other household bills. I managed to get a cheap folding powerchair second hand that (only) just fit in hall cupboard folded, for when I needed to go in a taxi somewhere too. 

At the minute I can't afford an helper my DLA carers allowance is covering Inca's painkillers and vet visits! The mobility part is paying back my credit card for the new scooter I needed and JJ's Insurance. Food, gas/electric and BT are coming out of the ESA. 

I rarely treat myself I don't bother buying clothes as I only got out a couple of times a year. I just get underwear or jog pants/T-shirts/fleeces cheap off ebay as they need replacing as that's all I wear mostly. I I need anything or the dogs do I try and buy out of season.. eg my brother helped me get a nice electric fire for my birthday it was in the sales and will probably be double by December when its freezing, especially if gas prices go up and more people start buying electric fires to keep warm! .. Winter clothes and boots I'll buy in summer off ebay when people aren't wanting to buy them, cos their too busy buying bikini's for their holidays abroad! ..same with xmas themed stuff for the dogs or anything I think a family member might like. I try to go with non-electrical then I don't have to worry about a warranty or having to buy it nearer to xmas when the prices will have gone back up. 

All these tricks I learned from my parents who weren't high earners either and had only my dads wage (as an ambulance man..didn't get today's 'Paramedic' wages) but still managed to clothe and feed 4 of us plus a dog and put enough aside for us to have a yearly camping holiday! 

I've been watching some of these programs like Benefits street and some of them just haven't got a clue how to budget! They're complaining about not having enough and are on far more than I'm on! I'm left wondering how come they're in debt over rent when they get more than I'm on, but they are prioritising other stuff cos they've got to 'have a bit of fun', go out, have tattoes, smoke or something! We were taught Bills first, then food then see what's left and what else we need! (for house etc... cleaning products etc not anything posh like new furniture!) 

It is a worry though even with me willing to do without or trying to get equipment replaced before the changeover so don't have thousands to find, especially as they keep increasing our bills (extra 10% on rent, CT to pay now) and cutting my income to pay all the extra bills with. .. little things like garden has to be kept tidy..gardener has gone up an extra £10 a month...I heard of someone getting evicted as they couldn't afford to put heating on and the house got damp, so it's not a choice of eat or heat , its heat the house or be evicted! 

Sorry that turned into more of a rant than I intended..well done if you got to the end!!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

IncaThePup said:


> They should make it means tested (DLA/PIP) I don't see why millionaires like the* Nazi Scameron *can claim the same amount of his son as people for whom it's their main income to live on! He seems to hate all disabled now he no longer has a disabled son they don't care if the rest of the country struggle. They seem hell bent on driving everyone to suicide to reduce the amount of benefits they have to pay out!
> 
> It's my main income I could possibly survive on full DLA alone (as long as I didn't need any big equipment £1,000 or more) but not if that got scrapped and only had ESA. I chose not to have a car as I was gonna need £10,000 in specialist adaptions, they wanted about that much as a deposit for a 'Drive from Wheelchair Kangoo' which was going to total around £24,000 and at the time I had no idea how long I was going to be able to drive for. I was already looking at special joystick control cos holding onto the steering wheel with one arm, especially trying to turn (as was using other hand for brake/accelerator control) was making my arm shake violently.
> 
> ...


Would you mind explaining who you mean by that pretty offensive term?


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> Please dont forget PIPs isnt restricted to people on benefits, you can work full time and still get them. I have four children, when I was first diagnosed they were all under 5, *and*, I was still working full time [no child care help then either, had to pay for everything], many many people in receipt of PiPs still work and therfore pay the same taxes as you [or prob more, as Im sure your self employed as a taxi driver, so can claim all sorts, down to the last pencil shaving, though Im not saying you do, of course]
> 
> what about those with families, maybe four or five children,
> 
> ...


Once again.......................

Say VW won the tender, im sure there are plenty of VW models within reason that would appeal (I drive a VAG product), colour is an option for customers should they wish, anyone assessed as needing a WAV gets one, what i propose is a simple car hire system, no different to Enterprise, etc, except its the government department running Motability, as I say, 3 years useage for most Motability cars is silly, and often its the 2nd hand car dealers who buy them from auction who benefit....


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

IncaThePup said:


> They should make it means tested (DLA/PIP) I don't see why millionaires like the Nazi Scameron can claim the same amount of his son as people for whom it's their main income to live on! He seems to hate all disabled now he no longer has a disabled son they don't care if the rest of the country struggle. They seem hell bent on driving everyone to suicide to reduce the amount of benefits they have to pay out!
> 
> It's my main income I could possibly survive on full DLA alone (as long as I didn't need any big equipment £1,000 or more) but not if that got scrapped and only had ESA. I chose not to have a car as I was gonna need £10,000 in specialist adaptions, they wanted about that much as a deposit for a 'Drive from Wheelchair Kangoo' which was going to total around £24,000 and at the time I had no idea how long I was going to be able to drive for. I was already looking at special joystick control cos holding onto the steering wheel with one arm, especially trying to turn (as was using other hand for brake/accelerator control) was making my arm shake violently.
> 
> ...


I enjoyed it BUT, at the start you denigrate David Cameron and by the end you in tune with him (almost) over Benefit Street type claimants.......lol


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Would you mind explaining who you mean by that pretty offensive term?


As if you didn't know!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

IncaThePup said:


> As if you didn't know!


No I don't know anyone who meets these criteria

a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, which controlled Germany from 1933 to 1945 under Adolf Hitler and advocated totalitarian government, territorial expansion,anti-Semitism,and Aryan supremacy,all these leading directly to World War II and the Holocaust.

If you are implying that our prime minister does then why don't you say so, properly rather than by suggestion/code? Do you not think anyone who lived under them/survived the Nazis/holocaust would find it somewhat offensive to read that extremely insulting term being used to describe a recently democratically elected member of parliament?


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> I enjoyed it BUT, at the start you denigrate David Cameron and by the end you in tune with him (almost) over Benefit Street type claimants.......lol


I haven't tuned in with him.. I was saying what I saw on benefits street program. Some were using the money for drugs and tattoes, and some clearly had no idea how to budget and were openly saying they had no intention of looking for work! Maybe if schools taught more practical things like budgeting, school leavers maybe better prepared for running an household on a tight budget if they don't manage to get a job right away?

That doesn't make what he's doing right! Why should everyone suffer for a few? In reality benefit fraud is a tiny percentage compared with Tax Evasion by rich individuals and businesses. Why aren't they making examples of them on TV?

He contradicts himself... he wants everyone to be able to go to work but then closes the Independent Living Fund, so people who were able to work despite their disabilities cos they could get a PA or whatever equipment the needed...now can't!

A deaf friend from university is a nurse, she has been working years with interpreting support paid for meetings and things she needed to be able to do her job. They've decided deaf people aren't eligible for this Access to Work money to be able to use it for interpreters, so what does she do now? she trained for years for this job with equal opportunities, worked for years at this job and now they won't fund the support she needs to do her job as well as the hearing nurses. How are they helping her to stay in work?

Another deaf friend got told he couldn't attend a course because they won't pay for interpreters, he went home... he went to bank to pay bills and found no money had gone in when he phoned very typetalk to find out why, he had been sanctioned for refusing opportunity for job training! There are many more!!!


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No I don't know anyone who meets these criteria
> 
> a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, which controlled Germany from 1933 to 1945 under Adolf Hitler and advocated totalitarian government, territorial expansion,anti-Semitism,and Aryan supremacy,all these leading directly to World War II and the Holocaust.
> 
> If you are implying that our prime minister does then why don't you say so, properly rather than by suggestion/code? Do you not think anyone who lived under them/survived the Nazis/holocaust would find it somewhat offensive to read that extremely insulting term being used to describe a recently democratically elected member of parliament?


Only if they're Tories who are staying rich under him! ..basically he's doing the same...social cleansing!! ..getting rid of all the poor and disabled.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

IncaThePup said:


> Only if they're Tories who are staying rich under him! ..basically he's doing the same...social cleansing!! ..getting rid of all the poor and disabled.


You aren't serious surely?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

IncaThePup said:


> Only if they're Tories who are staying rich under him! ..basically he's doing the same...social cleansing!! ..getting rid of all the poor and disabled.


Sorry you have lost me now. Are you saying only Tory survivors of the holocaust would find your calling the prime minister a Nazi offensive? or find you likening benefit reforms (which incidentally Hariet Harman admitted this week they would also have been implementing) to social cleansing?


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

IncaThePup said:


> Only if they're Tories who are staying rich under him! ..basically he's doing the same...social cleansing!! ..getting rid of all the poor and disabled.


Wait a sec, am I reading this right? You are comparing the actions of the Conservatives towards people on benefits to that of what the Nazis did to people up to and during WW2.... Please tell me I read that wrong...

If I am reading it right then I suggest you research something called the Holocaust..


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

IncaThePup said:


> Only if they're Tories who are staying rich under him! ..basically he's doing the same...social cleansing!! ..getting rid of all the poor and disabled.


Except non of the budget cuts affect those on disability benefit [long term esa] or PiPs or those with pensions
its only working age, able bodied people with children, those on the lower rate of ESA [those on work related or under 6 months] or those on low pay that are going to be suffering

You, from what i am reading here, are choosing to live in, or near, the poverty line because *you* choose to spend your money on the dogs

Your disability may not be a lifestyle choice
but
how you spend the monies given to you *because* you have a disability certainly are

How is that different from those choosing to smoke, drink, take drugs or have tattoos?


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Except non of the budget cuts affect those on disability benefit [long term esa] or PiPs or those with pensions
> its only working age, able bodied people with children, those on the lower rate of ESA [those on work related or under 6 months] or those on low pay that are going to be suffering
> 
> You, from what i am reading here, are choosing to live in, or near, the poverty line because *you* choose to spend your money on the dogs
> ...


I'm not choosing to live in poverty I can't work I have a progressive neurological condition. I used to work when I could and paid my NI in the event of this ever happening or so I thought!

At the moment I have enough to live on as I don't have wages to pay, but I've yet to go through the changeover from DLA to PIP. I had even more when I didn't have council tax and bedroom tax to pay. Again they moved the goalposts.. in 2006 I was assessed as needing a property of this size, now I have to pay for the extra room THEY said I needed. The room has not changed and is still being used the same way it was when I moved in. My needs have not changed either. They've once again moved the goalposts!

Many people with genuine conditions are not getting 'enough points' to qualify as they Govt have moved the goalposts! ...leaving those who depended on that money unable to have a car for example or pay any help they maybe currently paying for?

I think the people who got the ILF funding cut would disagree that this budget has not affected the disabled, especially those that were in work and now can't as the support they need is no longer funded. I have many deaf and/or disabled friends who have had support cut from the most disabled now dependant on social services coming and getting 15 mins to either be dressed or fed or go to the loo, or the people at the more able end who were in employment and now facing redundancy cos their funding has been cut for interpreters or PA's ...but NO apart from all those people the disabled don't count and aren't affected obviously !

Had I known this was coming I probably wouldn't have got another dog to train up, in the hope of another 10 years independence, I'd just ended my life when Inca's ended...unfortunately I'm not psychic and didn't relaise the country was being run by psychopaths who would cheat to get voted in!


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

stuaz said:


> Wait a sec, am I reading this right? You are comparing the actions of the Conservatives towards people on benefits to that of what the Nazis did to people up to and during WW2.... Please tell me I read that wrong...
> 
> If I am reading it right then I suggest you research something called the Holocaust..


I think your bang on the money, it suits some to howl that HMG are killing the non-working sections of society, the same "howlers" havent gotten over the general election result......lol


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

IncaThePup said:


> Only if they're Tories who are staying rich under him! ..basically he's doing the same...social cleansing!! ..getting rid of all the poor and disabled.


I had to read this three or four times....

Not quite sure what to say.

I wasn't aware that any disability benefits were cut?!?

My understanding was child tax credit from 2017 beyond two children was the main change.

Personally if money were so tight then I be looking more closely at my personal spending. For example Harsh as it is dogs don't need Christmas presents / birthday presents or cakes.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Too many of these IMO:

*Shameless benefits scrounger who says he is too disabled to work is caught lifting 17-STONE mobility scooter up the stairs to his flat *

*Gwynfor Jones rakes in £1,340-a-month benefits and says he cannot work*
*But he was seen hauling his 17-stone mobility scooter up steps outside flat*
*Stunned onlookers say it's like 'a Lou and Andy sketch from Little Britain'*
*Father-of-two, 50, says he cannot climb three stairs or walk 100ft unaided *
By Ollie Gillman for MailOnline

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3158036/Benefits-claimant-says-crippled-work-caught-lifting-17-stone-mobility-scooter-stairs-flat.html#ixzz3fhq2lgRJ 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> Too many of these IMO:
> 
> *Shameless benefits scrounger who says he is too disabled to work is caught lifting 17-STONE mobility scooter up the stairs to his flat *
> 
> ...


To be fair, the Mail is probably not the best source for impartial reporting.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

@IncaThePup I don't begrudge you a penny of the money you get in benefits or your two bedroom property, I don't mind paying my taxes to help people in genuine need but there are far too many people abusing the system. I don't think those on disability benefits should have to live on the bare minimum but you said earlier on in this thread that you have to find £200 every other month to pay for one of your dog's medication/home visits from the vet. That means £100 per month disposable income which is not something to complain about and is something many people in full time work don't have. Out of interest are there no charities such as the PDSA or Blue Cross who can help you with these costs/treatment?

Calling the prime minister a Nazi is taking your grievance too far and I think that is a word you should think very carefully about using.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

IncaThePup said:


> I'm not choosing to live in poverty I can't work I have a progressive neurological condition. I used to work when I could and paid my NI in the event of this ever happening or so I thought!


as I wrote
your disability is not a lifestyle choice, no ones is, *EVER*



> At the moment I have enough to live on as I don't have wages to pay, but I've yet to go through the changeover from DLA to PIP. I had even more when I didn't have council tax and bedroom tax to pay. Again they moved the goalposts.. in 2006 I was assessed as needing a property of this size, now I have to pay for the extra room THEY said I needed. The room has not changed and is still being used the same way it was when I moved in. My needs have not changed either. They've once again moved the goalposts!


have you had a needs assessment recently? have you applied for the discretionary council grants available for disabled people in your position? Yes the word discretionary is the watchword [bit like type in the DDA] but with CAB, SS and OT onside, somewhere in the region of 95% of people with disability are receiving it
if you have hb or ctb then Inca could be covered by the pdsa, which would/could be a huge relief for you monetary wise, even if you dont have a pdsa hospital near, then many vets have the discretionary service



> Many people with genuine conditions are not getting 'enough points' to qualify as they Govt have moved the goalposts! ...leaving those who depended on that money unable to have a car for example or pay any help they maybe currently paying for?


having gone through the process it is so much better, they actually have people who are trained in the disabilities, rather than just a tick box system
for example I had a physiotherapist assess me, as my main problems are arthritic based. So obviously he knows how muscles and joints are supposed to move *and* much harder to fool them too
So, maybe, having professionals involved with the conditions doing the assessments, is how people are being caught out rather than having the goalposts moved



> I think the people who got the ILF funding cut would disagree that this budget has not affected the disabled, especially those that were in work and now can't as the support they need is no longer funded.


This was not a budget change/cut, it was announced a few months ago while the coalition was in place



> think the people who got the ILF funding cut would disagree that this budget has not affected the disabled, especially those that were in work and now can't as the support they need is no longer funded. or the people at the more able end who were in employment and now facing redundancy cos their funding has been cut for interpreters or PA's ...but NO apart from all those people the disabled don't count and aren't affected obviously


same happened when they closed remploy, again under the coalition



> Had I known this was coming I probably wouldn't have got another dog to train up, in the hope of another 10 years independence, I'd just ended my life when Inca's ended...unfortunately I'm not psychic and didn't relaise the country was being run by psychopaths who would cheat to get voted in!


just a little over dramatic possibly?
and
would you like to show me/us just how the present government cheated to get in? the coalition was a definite cheat but I dont see how an outright majority win can be classed as cheating

Oh and before any berates me, Im *NOT* a tory voter, never have been never will be
and
this is not a personal attack either, just discussing how things are from the other side


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

IncathePup.

You say you use your DLA Carers allowance to cover Inca's vet bills. Your choice, obviously.

However, keeping dogs, as we all know, can be an expensive business, particularly when they become elderly, and yet, you've spoken often on this forum about which dog will be Inca's replacement when she passes.

If you choose to keep two dogs, then it really isn't reasonable to complain that your doggy expenses are eating into your benefits/allowances.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

stuaz said:


> To be fair, the Mail is probably not the best source for impartial reporting.


Doesnt mean it aint true though does it...


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Just for balance....

Sharon says "her current payment of benefits doesn't give her enough money to put food on the table".


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> Just for balance....
> 
> Sharon says "her current payment of benefits doesn't give her enough money to put food on the table".


That is so NOT funny - a lot of overweight people are actually malnourished you know and how do you know that lady doesn't have health problems


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> Doesnt mean it aint true though does it...


No it doesn't but based on there track record I am inclined to think that it's written and spun more for headlines than actual fact.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

stuaz said:


> No it doesn't but based on there track record I am inclined to think that it's written and spun more for headlines than actual fact.


Let me give you a more credible one! One of my neighbours who rides about on his mobility scooter every day, has over the last few days, been humping stones and rubble, and digging out his neighbours driveway in readiness for block paving! Lets not pretend they don't exist.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> Let me give you a more credible one! One of my neighbours who rides about on his mobility scooter every day, has over the last few days, been humping stones and rubble, and digging out his neighbours driveway in readiness for block paving! Lets not pretend they don't exist.


Not sure that's a more credible source, unless you know the ins and outs of there disability?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

stuaz said:


> Not sure that's a more credible source, unless you know the ins and outs of there disability?


How about my brother inlaw that lived off the tax payer for 20 years as a disabled person with a bad back before he was caught out. 
Now I know all the details of this story


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rona said:


> How about my brother inlaw that lived off the tax payer for 20 years as a disabled person with a bad back before he was caught out.
> Now I know all the details of this story


I'm not saying benefit cheats don't exist, of course they do, I am just saying that it is something which is often misreported by the main media in favour of headlines.

But my all means let's have a competition about who knows a benefit cheat  I just hope that these people are reported if it's actually true..


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

stuaz said:


> I'm not saying benefit cheats don't exist, of course they do, I am just saying that it is something which is often misreported by the main media in favour of headlines.
> 
> But my all means let's have a competition about who knows a benefit cheat  I just hope that these people are reported if it's actually true..


When someone on here said they had reported a cheat they were vilified


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

There are cheats in all walks of life (even MPs) but the majority of people on benefit don't choose or want to be on it, we see a few on TV who play the system (Benefit Street and the like) the only way I can look at it is if I lost £100 from my monthly salary I wouldn't be happy but would be OK,if someone on benefit lost the same they would be in trouble, hence every town having half a dozen Payday lenders.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

suewhite said:


> There are cheats in all walks of life (even MPs) but the majority of people on benefit don't choose or want to be on it, we see a few on TV who play the system (Benefit Street and the like) the only way I can look at it is if I lost £100 from my monthly salary I wouldn't be happy but would be OK,if someone on benefit lost the same they would be in trouble, hence every town having half a dozen Payday lenders.


sometimes a penny can make the difference between affording something and not


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rona said:


> When someone on here said they had reported a cheat they were vilified


Personally for me, if I knew for sure someone who was being a benefit cheat (E.g to use your brother in law as an example, where you knew 100% as opposed to some random neighbour you know only in passing) I would report them to the authorities.

I wouldn't however feel the need to come onto a forum and proclaim to the world I had "caught" a benefit cheat. I see no feel benefit in doing that, aside from blowing ones own trumpet...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

stuaz said:


> Personally for me, if I knew for sure someone who was being a benefit cheat (E.g to use your brother in law as an example, where you knew 100% as opposed to some random neighbour you know only in passing) I would report them to the authorities.
> 
> I wouldn't however feel the need to come onto a forum and proclaim to the world I had "caught" a benefit cheat. I see no feel benefit in doing that, aside from blowing ones own trumpet...


I agree but we are all different creatures 

Embrace the variety............be a shame to all think/be the same


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rona said:


> I agree but we are all different creatures
> 
> Embrace the variety............be a shame to all think/be the same


Totally agree, variety is the spice of life after all


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

stuaz said:


> Totally agree, variety is the spice of life after all


but variety doesn't have to include pettiness or spite does it?

Im all for benefit cheats being 'grassed up', they make it harder for those like myself and IncasMum and many others, who truly need the support and the ease of life that support may bring in carers or adaptations etc
It makes it harder for those who really are putting their hours into looking for work, who, whatever their age want to get back and be seen as contributing members of society
It makes it harder for employers to trust someone coming off long term JSA to not be workshy, idle and feckless, ready to scam, cheat and steal

Cheats make others think that *ALL* people on benefits live the high life at their expense, and, causes resentment, division and so on within communities

Yes do the deed if you have100% rock solid evidence, maybe pictures and so forth to back the allegations

but then to boast about it, on an open forum, where, for all anyone knows, the people themselves may be members, their children, or have friend/family members, who just might recognise them and be bullied, tarred with the same brush, become mentally and physically ill, maybe even do something stupid because of the shame, and we all know these things happen, sometimes purely due to what kind of thing is written over this amazing thing we call the *world *wide web?

surely thats wrong,
surely we all have to think, and be responsible, in what and how we post,
as things can and do so suddenly get taken out of context and blown up into chaos

[ and yes i know I sometimes can be Mrs Pot ]


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> but variety doesn't have to include pettiness or spite does it?
> 
> Im all for benefit cheats being 'grassed up', they make it harder for those like myself and IncasMum and many others, who truly need the support and the ease of life that support may bring in carers or adaptations etc
> It makes it harder for those who really are putting their hours into looking for work, who, whatever their age want to get back and be seen as contributing members of society
> ...


Totally agree, as with most things the minority ruin it for the majority and unfortunately the internet is and probably always will be full of "keyboard warriors". Who believe because they are at the end a phone line they can say/type whatever they like. You only need to take a look at something like Facebook to see it in all its depressing glory.... quite sad really.

I think if people engaged brain before fingers sometimes it might be better but hey ho.... back on the subject of the Budget


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Id be in favour of UK welfare benefits being only paid for any immigrant claimants with fully paid up N.I. contributions for the same amount of stamp periods that British citizens have to comply with, my wife couldnt get benefits years ago but the DSS had her signing on for 13 weeks to tell her she was not entitled to anything, Ive been self employed 15 years and my Class 2 N.I. earn me no benefits, if i clung under a truck on a Dover bound ferry id be better off!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Sorry @IncaThePup for getting your name wrong and calling you IncasMum


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

stuaz said:


> Wait a sec, am I reading this right? You are comparing the actions of the Conservatives towards people on benefits to that of what the Nazis did to people up to and during WW2.... Please tell me I read that wrong...
> 
> If I am reading it right then I suggest you research something called the Holocaust..


further proof the country is being run by Nazi's!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33578174


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

IncaThePup said:


> further proof the country is being run by Nazi's!!
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33578174


17 seconds of some kids playing in the garden and raising there arms proves absolutely nothing.

1. The kids probably wouldn't have understood the gesture. 
2. The gesture was done in 1933 during which hitler was rising to power and the war had not just started.
3. At 17 seconds long it's very easy for this to be taken out of context.
4. The queen while technically head of state does not run the country.

So yeah, this does not prove your extremely silly comment of comparing the Conservatives to Nazis.

Frankly I find the comparison rather insulting to the MILLIONS effected by the Nazis.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

IncaThePup said:


> further proof the country is being run by Nazi's!!
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33578174


I never heard anything quite so stupid. The photo was taken in 1933 before Hitler even became Fuhrer and 6 years before the war. How do we know they weren't just playing, copying things they have seen, doing the goose step. By the way the Queen does not run the country - the elected government does.


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

video didn't work


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=376431392545064



That should work!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

IncaThePup said:


> further proof the country is being run by Nazi's!!
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33578174


Did you actually read the article you have linked to?

Where are you getting all this crap?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I didn't realise we all got judged on how we behaved when we were 6 years old. I seem to think back in the 60's when I was that age we still had goliwogs for toys - does that make us all racist @IncaThePup?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

How about the Bellamy Salute?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute

How about the Olympic Salute?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_symbols#Olympic_salute

It really didn't have the same meaning/significance back then


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33578174








[/QUOTE]


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Quite honestly, IncaThePup, your comments I find ridiculous.

The picture of The Queen was taken when she was six years old. She cannot have had any notion what that particular salute even meant.

You are aware that The Queen isn't running The Country, aren't you?


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/up...n-actor-shocked-and-disgusted-by-beagle-farm/

Around 0.53 shows the beagles in very stark bare cages. The small village they're in looks lovely and green for nice walks but bet they never get to see it!


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

IncaThePup said:


> further proof the country is being run by Nazi's!!
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33578174


I really thought when I saw you had postered on this thread again that it would a more reasoned thought through reply following the absurd comments you made previously.

To be honest your latest comment is laughable and perfectly backs up the credibility of all your comments in this thread.....


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

I refuse to quote @IncaThePup, as im not giving this absurd story any more advertisement

having seen the video, it looks far more like they are putting their hands up for whomever is behind the camera, in a sort of 
'who wants icecream?'
'me! ME! ME!!!'
gesture, than 'hitler salutes'
stopping the film in a compromising moment, 
ie when their hands are in the air,
and, 
the fact that Edward VII was known to like and admire hitler, 
seems to be whats given the story some padding, nothing else

Tomorrows chip paper!!


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

IncaThePup said:


> further proof the country is being run by Nazi's!!
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33578174


This is the most stupid comment I've read in a very long time. A little bit of common sense and intelligence would tell an individual how ridiculous this comment is. Look at the date of the footage and think what it ment to them at that particular time before making such statements.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)




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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

HaHaha even funnier


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

So the footage from *before *the war, when the salute did not hold the meaning that it went onto represent. Context is everything.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


>


Yes hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? Lots of people posed for photos with Jimmy Savile (and gave him a free reign in various hospitals) and Rolf Harris before they knew what we know now, doesn't mean they support child abuse/sex with dead bodies though.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? Lots of people posed for photos with Jimmy Savile (and gave him a free reign in various hospitals) and Rolf Harris before they knew what we know now, doesn't mean they support child abuse/sex with dead bodies though.


Exactly this! Perhaps you need to find a meme to represent this


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Have a read at this RPH - http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...lute-video-royal-home-movie-?CMP=share_btn_tw


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? Lots of people posed for photos with Jimmy Savile (and gave him a free reign in various hospitals) and Rolf Harris before they knew what we know now, doesn't mean they support child abuse/sex with dead bodies though.


I have several pictures of myself with Jimmy Saville, I was part of a group that raised many a penny for stoke manderville
I also have pics with 
Dave Lee Travis
Stuart Hall and Eddie Waring
and
Max Clifford
Jim Davidson
freddie Starr
All taken due to charity fundraising

Does that make me a cohort of these people?


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

The Queen won't have been the only British girl messing about with Nazi salutes in 1933

British response To Nazism before 1939

And from the article Noushka linked to:


> Yes of course we do have the advantage of hindsight, but lots of people in 1933 had real concerns about where this was going. The fact is that a lot of people supported the Nazis as we know, a lot of people in the aristocracy thought this was the perfect obstacle to the threat of communism


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

The article also says that their attitude to facisim would have been influenced by their attitude to communism. This was due to several of their relatives being killed by them.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Have a read at this RPH - http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...lute-video-royal-home-movie-?CMP=share_btn_tw


That doesn't change my opinion I'm afraid Noush. We can all look back on our family history and no doubt find things we are not so proud of by todays standards, but we are not judging by todays standards. Hitler became Chancellor in 1933 not Fuhrer/leader, he actually lost the presidential election to Hindenburg so didn't become leader until after his death in August 1934. Of course he was laying the foundations for what he had in mind and some of his anti Jew and anti gay persecution had begun but no one could have guessed then how far he would take things and the disgusting/vile outcome of his policies. No doubt the rest of Europe expected the German people to overthrow him but they didn't and neither did we or any other country until years afterwards. It wasn't until the war finished that we truly became aware of the horrors of the concentration camps. State leaders have to meet and be polite to all sorts of people whether they like/agree with them or not

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-Blairs-six-secret-visits-to-Col-Gaddafi.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18607911

Of what possible benefit to anyone is it to rake this up now especially given that Edward VIII abdicated. I find it shocking that given the Queen is about to become our longest reigning monarch and will soon be 90 years old people feel the need to show such little respect and gratitude to her.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Of what possible benefit to anyone is it to rake this up now especially given that Edward VIII abdicated. I find it shocking that given the Queen is about to become our longest reigning monarch and will soon be 90 years old people feel the need to show such little respect and gratitude to her.


Of those articles I linked to, not one is blaming the Queen for giving that salute, as most people understand that children do not understand the political implications of a salute and just do things for fun.

But there is a point in the claim that the English aristocracy were fully aware of Hitler's intentions towards Jews, Homosexuals, Gypsies, etc, not to mention that many people know of his 'plans' for how families should be, how the workplace should be 'organised' and of his views on race and racial heritage, because those same views were held by many across Europe at that time (and not only the upper classes).

My grandad fought in the Spanish Civil War and was a member of the communist party, so he knew an awful lot about fascism and the fascist standpoint, which is why he, and thousands like him, saw the importance of fighting Hitler long before many others agreed.

I also have relatives who lived in London during Mosley's British Fascist Party campaigns. They certainly knew about the threat of fascism and nazism. They would have actually had to bury their heads completely not to realise the implications.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

lots of others doing 'that' salute

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...n-as-secret-nazi_n_7824482.html?utm_hp_ref=uk


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

silvi said:


> Of those articles I linked to, not one is blaming the Queen for giving that salute, as most people understand that children do not understand the political implications of a salute and just do things for fun.
> 
> But there is a point in the claim that the English aristocracy were fully aware of Hitler's intentions towards Jews, Homosexuals, Gypsies, etc, not to mention that many people know of his 'plans' for how families should be, how the workplace should be 'organised' and of his views on race and racial heritage, because those same views were held by many across Europe at that time (and not only the upper classes).
> 
> ...


What is the point exactly Silvi - those people are all dead? Like I said before I'm sure we all have something in our family history if we go back a generation or 2 or 3 we wouldn't agree with now although one of my grandfathers demonstrated against the Blackshirts in London in the 1936. Oswald Mosley was of course a labour minster in Ramsey MacDonald's labour government before becoming more extreme in his views so do we hold Ramsey MacDonald accountable for that too?


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> What is the point exactly Silvi - those people are all dead? Like I said before I'm sure we all have something in our family history if we go back a generation or 2 or 3 we wouldn't agree with now although one of my grandfathers demonstrated against the Blackshirts in London in the 1936. Oswald Mosley was of course a labour minster in Ramsey MacDonald's labour government before becoming more extreme in his views so do we hold Ramsey MacDonald accountable for that too?


The point is that this is a part of our history.
Your grandfather demonstrating against Mosley is part of your family's history, just as much as Mosley being a minister in the Labour Party is part of their history.
We shouldn't avoid our past, because it has an influence upon our present and our future. And that means not avoiding the bits we would rather hide.
(For example, perhaps the political Left should remember that it only takes a small step to go from extreme left to extreme right - especially with the fight for identity that the Labour Party appear to be struggling with right now)

The Sun had their own agenda for 'discovering' that old home movie, if only to create a bit of a storm (when perhaps we should be looking at other things...?).
But it is a bit of history, so now it has surfaced, why try to avoid the implications?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I'm a great history lover Silvi but what I don't like is the way people are made to feel guilty for something their ancestors did - a lot of participants in Who Do You Think You Are for instance are mortified to find out their family has links to slavery (Ainsley Harriott springs to mind but there have been others too) . I'm not saying its something to be proud of but I also don't think we should go around apologising and grovelling for things people who happen to be related to us did hundreds of years ago. I think in the context of this thread for instance the whole Nazi label has been thrown around in a political way which most people have found offensive and to suggest we are ruled by Nazi's is plain stupid. It seems to be a fashionable insult to throw around at the moment - Neil Kinnock's son liking the limiting of child tax credits to the first two children to "Nazi style eugenics" for instance. History is great but I hate to see it being rewritten with hindsight and then the horrors of something like the Nazis and the holocaust being undermined by throwing around those terms lightly.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm a great history lover Silvi but what I don't like is the way people are made to feel guilty for something their ancestors did - a lot of participants in Who Do You Think You Are for instance are mortified to find out their family has links to slavery (Ainsley Harriott springs to mind but there have been others too) . I'm not saying its something to be proud of but I also don't think we should go around apologising and grovelling for things people who happen to be related to us did hundreds of years ago. I think in the context of this thread for instance the whole Nazi label has been thrown around in a political way which most people have found offensive and to suggest we are ruled by Nazi's is plain stupid. It seems to be a fashionable insult to throw around at the moment - Neil Kinnock's son liking the limiting of child tax credits to the first two children to "Nazi style eugenics" for instance. History is great but I hate to see it being rewritten with hindsight and then the horrors of something like the Nazis and the holocaust being undermined by throwing around those terms lightly.


Now that last sentence I definitely agree with 
No point in grovelling and apologising for something our ancestors did.... but trying to make it right in some cases would be a good start. The 'British Empire' springs to mind, but that's another subject....
(I don't remember the Ainsley Harriot program, but I would have thought that many slaves had ancestors who were slaveholders)

But yes, the term 'Nazi' is used much too lightly at times.
(However, the eugenics argument - on its own without the 'Nazi' link - I do see as being relevant in that the thinking has never entirely gone away - but that's another debate )


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Found this on twitter....
Another view of 'that' video (and a meme, lol!):


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