# snapping!



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

We have a 7month old bitch who snaps at us when we tell her off. Just know I went outside to let her back in and she had got over the fence into our veg garden and digging up a bag of compost, I shouted at her and went over. She starts running round and cant get out as its fenced (think she must have crawled under a small area) so I went on to get her off. She then started rolling over and as I go to grab her collar starts snapping at me. I went back in to get a lead and her blanket to try to catch her. Managed to catch her collar and she nearly bit me!! She waa shaking and cowering but still trying to bite me so I left her on there until she stopped and managed to move some fencing for her to get out and now she is fine.
She has done similar a few times. 
What do I do??


----------



## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

cookielucylou said:


> We have a 7month old bitch who snaps at us when we tell her off. Just know I went outside to let her back in and she had got over the fence into our veg garden and digging up a bag of compost, I shouted at her and went over. She starts running round and cant get out as its fenced (think she must have crawled under a small area) so I went on to get her off. She then started rolling over and as I go to grab her collar starts snapping at me. I went back in to get a lead and her blanket to try to catch her. Managed to catch her collar and she nearly bit me!! She waa shaking and cowering but still trying to bite me so I left her on there until she stopped and managed to move some fencing for her to get out and now she is fine.
> She has done similar a few times.
> What do I do??


Can you define clearly what you do when you tell her off, I.e both your actions, words, tone etc?

Do you have a trainer to help you?


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

It seems sort of fear agression to me but other than shouting at her and she knows that I'm not messing/playing when I shout at her, we dont hurt her in anyway so why does she feel the need to try biting?


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

I shouted angrily at her as you would if she got through your fencing where she knows she wasnt supposed to be. Go over to her get hold of her collar and take her to her bed-unless she is snapping then obviously I dont.
We go puppy training, which she is brilliant at.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Well first off stop yelling at her, grabbing her and terrifying her into snapping and biting. Because I'm afraid that is exactly what you're doing. She's trying to bite you because she's scared and that's the only defense she has.

And no, I would yell angrily at my dog if he got through the fencing to where he shouldn't be, it would be my fault for not ensuring he was either well trained enough to know not to cross that boundary or for not ensuring the area was adequately fenced to keep him out.

You need to find ways of removing her from situations like that without intimidating her. A solid recall, targeting your hand with her nose, anything that doesn't involve you pushing her into feeling she has to defend herself.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

cookielucylou said:


> I shouted angrily at her as you would if she got through your fencing where she knows she wasnt supposed to be. Go over to her get hold of her collar and take her to her bed-unless she is snapping then obviously I dont.
> We go puppy training, which she is brilliant at.


I think, unfortunately, she has become a little afraid of you.

You say she knows she isn't supposed to go through the fence, but she doesn't. She still a pup and, just like toddlers, they need to be taught with patience and kindness.

If she does it again, instead of shouting, which immediately makes her afraid, try calling her to you, with a treat or squeaky toy to encourage her. If she does come, praise her, and then remove her from the scene of the crime. 

If she won't come to you, just say nothing, go and put her lead on and remove her that way.


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

She doesn't have a solid recall though, she does it like most things when she feels like it. 
She also snaps at my son who is 3. Yesterday he went to pick some wood up from in front of her which she dropped when I told her to and she snapped at him. Not the first time. I'm getting to the point where I have had enough of her.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Well first off stop yelling at her, grabbing her and terrifying her into snapping and biting. Because I'm afraid that is exactly what you're doing. She's trying to bite you because she's scared and that's the only defense she has.
> 
> And no,* I would yell angrily at my dog* if he got through the fencing to where he shouldn't be, it would be my fault for not ensuring he was either well trained enough to know not to cross that boundary or for not ensuring the area was adequately fenced to keep him out.
> 
> You need to find ways of removing her from situations like that without intimidating her. A solid recall, targeting your hand with her nose, anything that doesn't involve you pushing her into feeling she has to defend herself.


I presume you mean _wouldn't_? 

What Sarah says, shouting at her is only going to cause her to react out of fear, start by teaching her a good recall & reward that, rather than punishing the unwanted behaviour & also teach her bite inhibition
http://deesdogs.com/documents/teachingbiteinhibition.pdf


----------



## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

cookielucylou said:


> She doesn't have a solid recall though, she does it like most things when she feels like it.
> She also snaps at my son who is 3. Yesterday he went to pick some wood up from in front of her which she dropped when I told her to and she snapped at him. Not the first time.* I'm getting to the point where I have had enough of her*.


 She's seven months old, she is still a baby. It sounds like she is scared of being shouted at, and is reacting by snapping as it's the only way she knows how.

If she doesn't have good recall, she shouldn't be in an insecure garden until you teach her proper recall. It takes a lot of time, patience and hard work to train a puppy but please don't shout when it's clear that it's having a bad effect. She should WANT to do what you ask because she gets rewarded for doing so, not be scared of being shouted at and be cowering and shaking


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

I have been working on recall so that should help then. I just dont really understand why they feel the need to try biting if your not hurting them.
I have been doing a lot of bite training with her as she was very nippy when we first got her and I think we are just about over that now, she is an ambull so I have been teaching her to play tug instead as I understand tugging is something they enjoy doing.
Our garden is secure but we have fenced off areas we dont want her, she cant get out of the garden itself.


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Can I ask what "bite training" you have done. I'm not sure what you mean.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

cookielucylou said:


> She doesn't have a solid recall though, she does it like most things when she feels like it.
> She also snaps at my son who is 3. Yesterday he went to pick some wood up from in front of her which she dropped when I told her to and she snapped at him. Not the first time. I'm getting to the point where I have had enough of her.


Sounds like she is resource guarding, though I can't understand why you would allow your son to approach her when she has a high value item when she has shown aggression before.

The dog is only performing a normal (but modifiable) canine behaviour.

This sort of thing is best dealt with by getting a referral from a vet for a professional behaviourist.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lol, yes I meant I wouldn't yell angrily at my dog.

She feels the need to bite because she's frightened, just like humans often feel they need to lash out through fear. I would bet a huge proportion of bites happen because a dog is frightened and backed into a corner (so to speak) rather than the dog actually being aggressive.

what sort of training methods have you used with her so far?


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

All I can suggest is consulting a professional behaviourist ASAP who can see the behaviour and your interactions for themselves and put in place a good plan of action before this becomes a very dangerous problem.


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

Teaching her not to bite at us. So we will be playing she starts biting at our hands we tell her no and play stops until no biting. Then to go with that I have been teaching tug so something she can bite/tug at which isnt us.


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

We go to a kc training group and been working towards the puppy/foundation award, generally lots of reward based training.
She is fine the majority of the time, a very large lap dog!


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cookielucylou said:


> We go to a kc training group and been working towards the puppy/foundation award, generally lots of reward based training.
> She is fine the majority of the time, a very large lap dog!


Yes, but the minority of the time she is behaving in what could become a dangerous manner - best to remedy that surely? Worth the investment of a behaviourist.


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

But not everyone can afford £100 plus for a behaviourist so what do you do then??


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cookielucylou said:


> But not everyone can afford £100 plus for a behaviourist so what do you do then??


Credit card? Payment plan? Borrow it? Check your insurance as many policies cover behavioural work - vet referral will be needed anyway in most cases?

It just seems that when you have what seems like escalating resource guarding in what will be a big dog and a small child in the house you need a professional to really see what is going on rather than relying on internet research.

You have got loads of good advice and people on here can be very knowledgeable indeed but for me it would be a risk.


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

None of those are an option.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cookielucylou said:


> None of those are an option.


Have you asked your vet? Many do payment plans? Or even a behaviourist? Long shot but just maybe.

Perhaps the money you spend on KC training classes could be used for it and then resume classes once you're sorted?


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

At ONLY 7 months old a dog is still a largely immature work in progress. You got to bear that in mind and cut her some slack.

Even if they get many things right on some days...or most days...they will, due to their youth and inexperience, make many mistakes. They haven't even got a proper notion yet of what exactly IS a mistake.

There is no doubt that her biting was intended as pure self-defense. Born out of fear. And you know....I personally don't subsribe to the notion that a dog's psyche will wither and crumble if they ever hear a stern "no!" or "leave it". Not even if that is expressed at a louder decibel level.

But a dog REALLY shouldn't be so petrified of their owner that they see no option but to bite them out of fear & desperation. Something has gone badly pear-shaped here. Maybe if you expand, we could help?


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

cookielucylou said:


> But not everyone can afford £100 plus for a behaviourist so what do you do then??


Save up, come to a payment plan arrangement, borrow money from family/friends, max out a credit card, sell some stuff?

Unfortunately it's not an issue that can be rectified via forum posts, you really do need to get these issues sorted with professional help.


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

Expand on what exactly? Her back story is she was sold as a young puppy to a family who werent supposed to have her and rehomed her at 4.5months, they didnt give us any more information on her. We have had her about 2.5 months.
I'm home with her for the majority of the day, we go on a couple of short walks a day and as I said we are half way through puppy training classes.
Training was £40 that was paid upfront-nothing like the £250 that I just saw for around here.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

How committed are you to actually working with this dog through her problems and managing her while you do so? I don't mean to be offensive with that question but a hell of a lot of people simply "get rid" when the dog starts showing signs it needs work, especially around the age yours is now. Adolescence is not an easy time with some dogs.

The resource guarding needs work for sure, especially with a small child in the house and she will need careful management with it for at least the near future and perhaps always, especially with your childs friends. Mine! by Jean Donaldson is an excellent book on the problem and may well be worth a look.

What area are you in roughly? Perhaps someone could suggest a behaviourist who doesn't cost the earth? The one I had out to my previous dog was under £100 whereas a lot of the ones such as Bark Busters tend to cost a fortune and are crap besides. Have you brought up your dogs behaviour at the class you go to?


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

I'm more than happy to work with her and have done lots with her already. I have lots of time to spend with her but our finances are already stretched, we cant afford to be hiring behaviourists.


----------



## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

Can i just ask, if she were injured how would you afford the vets bills? Just seems to be the same situation, and with a dog you need to be prepared for unexpected bills such as this one.


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

She is insured.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cookielucylou said:


> She is insured.


Is behavioural work definitely not covered then? May be worth scouring the small print.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

cookielucylou said:


> Expand on what exactly? Her back story is she was sold as a young puppy to a family who werent supposed to have her and rehomed her at 4.5months, they didnt give us any more information on her. We have had her about 2.5 months.
> I'm home with her for the majority of the day, we go on a couple of short walks a day and as I said we are half way through puppy training classes.
> Training was £40 that was paid upfront-nothing like the £250 that I just saw for around here.


Fair enough, "expand please" IS a tad vague.

What I meant was, can you make a list of ALL of her good points and strengths and then make a list of any issues which you feel need addressing. In order of importance.

You mentioned snapping at your young son when he is eating. Easily fixed. Separate toddler and dog during his meals. Alternatively, if she knows the command "down" or "bed" be sure that is what she does or where she is. Instruct your son to never, ever, smack the dog, tease the dog or be unkind. Be VERY clear, and firm. Set a REALLY good example.

Next issue?


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

cookielucylou said:


> She is insured.


A lot of insurance policies actually cover behavioural issues


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I think if you have an idea of her boundaries, when she is likely to snap and when she isnt, then dont push those boundaries.

I have a dog who will snap, and has done at me on many occasions (not recently however since I saw the error of my ways). One day he was lying on the sofa, something that is not allowed, so I yelled and marched over to grab his collar to pull him off and I nearly got my hand bitten for my efforts. He is also untrustworthy with strangers who approach him and go straight in for patting him on the head and all that business. Does this mean he has a dodgy temperament? No, I dont necessarily think so, it just shows that he has limits and boundaries and is the kind of dog who will react with teeth so I dont put him in situations where he feels the need to react like that (I am making him sound worse than he is as these occurrences are extremely rare). As a pup if I was trying to make him do something he didnt want to do, even something simple like a 'sit' in puppy class, then he would object by biting my wrists.

Even my extremely placid bitch reacted with her teeth at me the other week. She went to jump in the top cage in the car and fell awkwardly on the ground. I reached out to take her by the collar so she didnt do it again (if I recall, a birdscarer had spooked her into jumping) and she went to bite my hand. She didnt connect as I think she instantly realised what she had done and looked devastated, but it just proves that EVERY dog has it's limits and will snap in the heat of the moment.


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

The snapping is the main one really.
In regards to training we are currently trying to keep her off the table and kitchen sides as she has grown enough now that she can steal stuff of them.
I teach both my littlies not to hit or hurt the dog and to leave her when she is in her bed. She knows down and bed but isnt 100% if she feels something else is a better option.


----------



## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Do you understand that something in your handling of this dog has gone horribly wrong???

You cause your dog to be frightened to the point of biting you. Obviously she also doesn't want to come to you, either, or you would not be having to grab her by the collar, which, presumably in the light of previous experience, must terrify her if it causes her to bite. 'Not hurting' doesn't only cover physical stuff...many dogs are 'hurt' and frightened by rough handling.

She may be a particularly sensitive dog; if so you should have recognised this by now and adjusted your treatment of her accordingly. Why are you 'telling her off'? Give her an alternative behaviour that you can praise/reward. Dogs will always do what pays best.

It sounds as if she has become generally defensive, even with your toddler who you say does her no harm.

If you can't manage a behaviourist then YOU need to have a big re-think about how you handle her and how you are going to manage these problems. Go back to the beginning and rebuild her confidence in you.

I'm not suggesting you've ill-treated her, but you haven't taken her character into account in your handling of her. I have had dogs that I could drag about by the collar all day, and it would have had no effect on them whatsoever cos they were confident, boisterous and tough. I have also had dogs ( my present one included) that I could not so much as raise my voice to without them quaking in their boots. You can train a dog to a very high standard without ever putting your hands on it, if that's what it takes for that particular dog.

For now I would suggest you only do positive stuff with your dog, lure her away from the wrong stuff ( rather than grabbing her) and give her lots to do that you know she can get right so she regains confidence. If there other are things you need to stop her doing then manage it....fix that fence.


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Do you have a crate you could use when your children are having meals?

That way the problem is easily rectified. Some vets will let you borrow them, or someone at your class may have one you can borrow 


As has been suggested, it would be worth having a word with your class instructor about the issues. She will know your dog and have seen him interacting wih you and others and would be better placed to give you advice.

I DO understand that a behaviourist is very expensive, but it may be worth a look at your insurance policy, as the good ones will cover this.


Please let is know how you get on and good luck!


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

cookielucylou said:


> The snapping is the main one really.
> In regards to training we are currently trying to keep her off the table and kitchen sides as she has grown enough now that she can steal stuff of them.
> I teach both my littlies not to hit or hurt the dog and to leave her when she is in her bed. She knows down and bed but isnt 100% if she feels something else is a better option.


Cookielucylou...I think you have every reason to be optimistic. It sounds as if you have a perfectly normal puppy who still has to learn some stuff ...and you have to teach her. Gently and fairly. Speaking of: does she understand the words "gently, please"? Applied when she is mouthy ( as many perfectly normal pups are)?

"Gently and fairly" doesn't mean that anything goes. Or that the boundaries of what is and isn't allowed aren't set by YOU. They ARE. It is your job to educate and be responsible for her, not vice versa. Which is why the parameters of what is and isn't a good idea in terms of behaviours are set by you.

But BEFORE you get cross with her in any situation you HAVE to ask yourself this:

Does my dog really understand this command applied to this situation?

Keep on taking her to classes. Ask your trainers for help. She doesn't sound like an aggressive dog to me. An unsure, scared dog...but aggressive, no.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

How much exercise does she get, on a daily basis?


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

We dont have room for a crate.
She does seem fairly highly strung, we are still trying to get her to walk past the bins on the street on bin day rather than attempt to run into the road! 
She doesn't have a confidence issue with me, she is fine with me 99% of the time. It is only when she is told off that she acts like that.
Excersise wise she gets two 20min walks a day and lots of playing in the garden. I have been told that the rule is 5mins per month so that should be if anything too much.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Linda Weasel said:


> *Do you understand that something in your handling of this dog has gone horribly wrong???*
> 
> You cause your dog to be frightened to the point of biting you. Obviously she also doesn't want to come to you, either, or you would not be having to grab her by the collar, which, presumably in the light of previous experience, must terrify her if it causes her to bite. 'Not hurting' doesn't only cover physical stuff...many dogs are 'hurt' and frightened by rough handling.
> 
> ...


It could be that the damage was already done by her previous home, the OP says they don't have a lot of back history, they could have lied about anything, it's one of the pitfalls of rehoming.

OP I hope you can get the support she needs, she's still very young so she has the potential to become a lovely dog with the right guidance, & definitely refrain from telling her off or putting her in situations where she may feel threatened


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

I did think that at 4.5months though we would be pretty safe with rehoming.


----------



## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

She sounds a little like my pup. At about 4 months, at the point when he was big enough to get on the furniture, we tried to keep him off and if he didn't get off when asked we would remove him. He started snapping when we went to him when he was on the sofa, and also in other situations when he felt threatened like if we reached for him in the boot of the car. He resource guarded too.

The good news is that with a lot of work he is much better now at 10 months. We had a lot of input from a behaviourist, which was covered by our insurance. We learned what situations he found threatening, and found ways to get around them. Like you we had never done anything which would generally be considered rough or cruel, but we failed to recognise that for our dog having his collar grabbed, or moving him forcibly in anyway, or even a harsh word were unpleasant and scary experiences. We did lots of work on getting him happy with having his collar touched. We spent a lot of time working on resource guarding too.

Do check your insurance policy - behavioural work may be covered, and if it is it could be really helpful. If that's not feasible I would have a really careful think about what situations make her react and make sure you avoid them/find an alternative way of dealing with them. Have a read about doggy body language so you can recognise when she's stressed (it's very easy to not recognise signs a dog is getting stressed if you don't know what to look for). Do lots of positive training with her (rewarding with food/play) so that she learns doing what you want is totally awesome so that hopefully in the future you can just ask her to do what you want rather than having to touch her. Maybe do some exercises on body handling too - touch her then give her a treat. Start in the places she finds most acceptable, perhaps her shoulders and gradually work towards places she might find less acceptable like her collar. Keep an eye on her body language and if she's looking stressed take it more slowly.

Good luck


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

There should be no reason she can't be safe with a few changes. Resource guarding is a normal dog behaviour but generally easily modified with a bit of work and management. 

As for the defensive biting, again that should be something that can be sorted with work and management. However it is going to mean not yelling at her, not grabbing her and finding alternative ways of removing her from situations. She doesn't want to bite you, she's made that pretty damn clear from what you post, but if you keep pushing her it will get to the point she feels she has no choice. 

I'd also be putting in a lot of work on her basic training so she isn't just doing things when she feels like it because good basic obedience would help massively. Has this issue been brought up with the trainer at class? Have they recommended anything? There are a lot of fantastic videos on youtube that can help with basic obedience skills if you can't afford to buy books or pay for more classes. But if you can stretch to a couple of books then When Pigs Fly is a highly recommended one that teaches you how to really get your dog wanting to do what you want it to. Mine! is a good one on resource guarding. And a good general step by step guide sort of training book is Train Your Dog Like a Pro. Covers all the basics and how to go about ensuring the dog really does know them and how to proof them.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

cookielucylou said:


> *We dont have room for a crate.*
> She does seem fairly highly strung, we are still trying to get her to walk past the bins on the street on bin day rather than attempt to run into the road!
> She doesn't have a confidence issue with me, she is fine with me 99% of the time. It is only when she is told off that she acts like that.
> Excersise wise she gets two 20min walks a day and lots of playing in the garden. I have been told that the rule is 5mins per month so that should be if anything too much.


Baby gate / pet gate across a door that can be shut so she's alone when eating?

It is difficult to help when all suggestions are rejected to be honest. Wish there was a quick fix that we could all just tell you - but there isn't.


----------



## Guest (May 8, 2014)

I agree with the many suggestions to get a behaviorist involved. Check on her insurance and see if a behaviorist is covered. You may have to get a vet referral, but a good behaviorist would require that anyway.

A lot of what you describe does sound like fearful behavior, and a fearful ambull is not something to take lightly IMO.

In the meantime, if shes only snapping when you tell her off, stop telling her off. Instead of telling her what not to do, figure out what you *do* want her to do, teach her that, and reward her for compliance. If her compliance is hit or miss, make the rewards more appealing. Dont forget that YOU are also part of the reward, and every time you yell at your dog and make her feel fearful or defensive, you have eroded a small bit of your reward potential. The less of that you can do, especially with a dog like this, the better. 

The resource guarding is a very fixable issue as well, also based on building trust. There is a great little book called Mine by Jean Donaldson that might be worth a read.


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Well first off stop yelling at her, grabbing her and terrifying her into snapping and biting. Because I'm afraid that is exactly what you're doing. She's trying to bite you because she's scared and that's the only defense she has.
> 
> And no, I would yell angrily at my dog if he got through the fencing to where he shouldn't be, it would be my fault for not ensuring he was either well trained enough to know not to cross that boundary or for not ensuring the area was adequately fenced to keep him out.
> 
> You need to find ways of removing her from situations like that without intimidating her. A solid recall, targeting your hand with her nose, anything that doesn't involve you pushing her into feeling she has to defend herself.


Exactly that, (and rep for you Sarah1983).


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

cookielucylou said:


> We dont have room for a crate.
> She does seem fairly highly strung, we are still trying to get her to walk past the bins on the street on bin day rather than attempt to run into the road!
> She doesn't have a confidence issue with me, she is fine with me 99% of the time. It is only when she is told off that she acts like that.
> Excersise wise she gets two 20min walks a day and lots of playing in the garden. I have been told that the rule is 5mins per month so that should be if anything too much.


You are a good dog mum, cookielucylou.

You encountered a hiccup, a problem...and you loved your dog enough to ask for help. For her and for you. And THAT is what a good owner does.

NONE if us are experts on someone else's dog. NONE of us have an surefire way to tackle another owner's problem. NONE of us have YOUR dog and YOUR specific living circumstances. Involving many commitments of having young children and, and, and.

Training a dog is a process. They don't speak our language, we don't speak theirs so we need to establish a basis of communication first and foremost. Look at it this way: say YOU only spoke Chinese and I only spoke Russian. I want us to go for a walk and I want you to walk calmly beside me. And I also want us to ENJOY our walk together.

If I yelled at you every time you took a few steps ahead or clouted you whilst yelling or muttering something incomprehensible in MY language - what would that teach you? Aside from me being an unkind, evidently unhinged, ar*e?

Its no different for dogs. Taking a dog to classes and school isn't really for the dog. The aim is that WE learn how to communicate well WITH our dogs in a language the dog can understand. THAT is why we need to take them.

They are dog training classes online - some better than others - and dog training classes all over the country. Some also better than others. If you could give us an indication of your area, maybe we could recommend some? There are also a gazillion dog training books on the market - would you like some recommendations?

Meanwhile, the only thing for you and your family to remember when teaching your girl are : be consistent, be fair, be kind. Reward her when she get's it right.

And DEFINITELY look into baby gates. Freecycle is a good resource, dito car boot sales, second hand kiddie shops, ebay - doesn't have to be new and expensive.

All the best


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

cookielucylou said:


> We go to a kc training group and been working towards the puppy/foundation award, generally lots of reward based training.
> She is fine the majority of the time, a very large lap dog!





cookielucylou said:


> None of those are an option.


So next time you go to the training group, arrange to sit down with one of the trainers afterwards and talk through the issues. Even though they're probably volunteers, the trainers should have enough experience and commitment with dogs and their training to give helpful advice. This is common practice at the training club I go to, and has even extended to non-members who have just come to watch.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> Exactly that, (and rep for you Sarah1983).


Oh, thanks


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

Thankyou all for your help and advice 
We have a stairgate to the kitchen so she can be shut in/out of there. Her bed used to be in the kitchen so that was her safe space but we moved her bed to the lounge as she prefered being in with us. Was that the wrong thing to do?
Reading through all the comments it does sound like she is sensitive so I do realise now it is partly my fault for her snapping as she doesn't like being shouted at and reacts badly to that. 
We are in northamptonshire. Book recomendations are good, I know i do still have some at my mums house but not sure what I have.
She doesn't tend to resource guard, its only been that once that she has done it. My son usually plays with her and throws toys for her and she hasn't had a problem with it before. My son does seem scared of her though as she is very jumpy and has knocked him over before then jumped on him to lick him. Could she also be picking up on that?


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

cookielucylou said:


> Thankyou all for your help and advice
> We have a stairgate to the kitchen so she can be shut in/out of there. Her bed used to be in the kitchen so that was her safe space but we moved her bed to the lounge as she prefered being in with us. Was that the wrong thing to do?
> Reading through all the comments it does sound like she is sensitive so I do realise now it is partly my fault for her snapping as she doesn't like being shouted at and reacts badly to that.
> We are in northamptonshire. Book recomendations are good, I know i do still have some at my mums house but not sure what I have.
> She doesn't tend to resource guard, its only been that once that she has done it. My son usually plays with her and throws toys for her and she hasn't had a problem with it before. My son does seem scared of her though as she is very jumpy and has knocked him over before then jumped on him to lick him. Could she also be picking up on that?


Can't help with trainer recommendations in Northhamptonshire (I live in Devon!).

But, if you started another thread with the subject "who can suggest a good trainer in Northhamtonshire?" this may yield more responses than being buried within this thread. Go for it!

Books: I have a vast doggy library - am a sad reading buff - but my favourites include:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=1TM965RAHGEP0M1RRFHT

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0S9PHY1SDRKHSQH7NQHA

Other End of the Leash: Amazon.co.uk: Patricia B McConnell: Books

But I also find Cesar Millan's books a good resource - don't believe any of the haughty tosh spread about that his philosophy is "barbaric" or "cruel"...unless you believe that affection, exercise and clear boundaries are cruel ... - and I think "The Dog Listener" by J. Fennell is well worth reading.

Do you have a public library nearby? If so, have a browse through a bunch of them and see which ones you "click" with in terms of writing style and content. The best method is worth nothing if the author leaves you hazy on how to implement it. And not every method and technique is right for every dog.

You'll figure it out!

As to your son - quite likely that she is totally bamboozled and quite apprehensive by his behaviour. Kids are unpredictable in their reactions: the same things which make them giggle and play with the dog one moment can make them grouchy and yelling the next time.

REALLY hard for a young canine NOT to get confused and overwhelmed by this erratic display. Supervise closely, instruct your sons carefully and please NEVER allow them to tease her or be mean to her. A definite no-no.

Remember that dogs use their teeth also as a communication device. Aka "Ow, that hurt" or "Leave me alone" or "c'mon lets play rough!". NONE of these are inherently nasty. She has to learn to NOT use her teeth or only VERY softly, and your kiddos have to learn that "leave her be" means exactly that.

Good luck!


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Having read Cesar Milans books and Jan Fennels they would be ones I'd strongly recommend avoiding although I did find CMs books better than his show. Sure, dogs need exercise, affection and boundaries as CM says but the way he executes those things is not conducive to a good relationship with a dog. Given that the OPs dog is already showing signs she is being pushed towards a bite there is no way on earth I'd recommend using any of his methods. And JF seems to spend more time talking about ignoring your dog than actually working with it. And recommends not walking it if it pulls


----------



## Guest (May 8, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> But I also find Cesar Millan's books a good resource - don't believe any of the haughty tosh spread about that his philosophy is "barbaric" or "cruel"...unless you believe that affection, exercise and clear boundaries are cruel ... - and I think "The Dog Listener" by J. Fennell is well worth reading.


Can open, worms everywhere....

I'm just going to reiterate what I've already said. Fearful ambull in a home with children who has already resorted to threatening with teeth needs a behaviorist ASAP. Not something I'd mess around with to see if something works or doesn't. You need someone who knows what they're doing assessing the dog and giving you clear directives of how to proceed.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Having read Cesar Milans books and Jan Fennels they would be ones I'd strongly recommend avoiding although I did find CMs books better than his show. Sure, dogs need exercise, affection and boundaries as CM says but the way he executes those things is not conducive to a good relationship with a dog. Given that the OPs dog is already showing signs she is being pushed towards a bite there is no way on earth I'd recommend using any of his methods. And JF seems to spend more time talking about ignoring your dog than actually working with it. And recommends not walking it if it pulls


And your PRACTICAL book recommendations, delineating a clear & concise positive technique, consist of........?

I realise it is terribly de rigeur to trash Millan on this forum, but if you could indicate the specific pages in the book(s) where he suggests a cruel/brutal measure, that would be of much help to the OP.

Harping on and on to a young mum, with restricted financial resources, that the ONLY way to help her young, seemingly normal pup, is to enlist the service of an expensive behaviourist she can't afford, isn't all that helpful.

Why not let HER be the judge whether Millan, Fennell, Fisher, McConnel, and the thousands of others have something worthwhile to say and teach?


----------



## Guest (May 8, 2014)

Well, for one, a behaviorist doesnt have to be expensive, especially if it is covered under the dogs insurance. OP did you get a chance to check with your insurer?

Secondly, were talking about a powerful breed of dog, bred to face up to wild boars  IOW, to not back down from a threat (doesnt matter if the threat is real or perceived). This is a dog who at a young age, appears to have decided that in some contexts humans are a threat. Put that all together and you have a potentially dangerous situation. Not trying to be alarmist or negative about this whole thing, just realistic. 

Pack leadership-ing this dog as the Millans of the world would suggest isnt going to accomplish a single thing towards building trust, building a shared language, counter conditioning and desensitizing, nor lowering this dogs stress levels. It may not hurt, but it sure isnt going to help. So in that way, suggesting the OP read unhelpful books is just a waste of precious time and resources. 

Its not about trashing any one trainer. Its about offering the OP the most effective suggestions for future success.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I gave several helpful book suggestions a few posts back actually. And please tell me where I've "trashed" CM, I merely said I would absolutely not recommend his methods with a dog who has already shown it is being pushed towards a bite. Yes, I'd recommend a behaviourist ideally but if the OP is unable or unwilling there's no point beating them around the head with the idea.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Dog training or reference books aren't equivalent to the 10 holy commandments from Mount Sinai.

Not one of them.

Their purpose is to be a guideline not a blueprint.

Just as a person adapts a recipe from a cookbook to suit their personal preferences and palate, owners adapt a recommendation from a book to their specific dog. Discarding what doesn't suit and implementing what does.

Which, incidentally, is what good behaviourists do. At £ 60 - 120 per hour. A lot of money for a great many young families. And the notion that a dog may be reformed or trained after only one hour is risible. Meaning expenses mount. But hey, who needs to eat, pay a mortgage, or clothe their children - we are all shareholders in Apple Inc. and money is no object.

THIS is not the way to help an owner. The OP sounds intelligent enough to form an opinion of her own. Let her read Millan's books. If she concludes "Rubbish!" they can have a ceremonial burning or burial ceremony in the back garden. Great fun for the kids.

Albeit I doubt that this will be the conclusion.


----------



## Guest (May 8, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Which, incidentally, is what good behaviourists do. At £ 60 - 120 per hour. A lot of money for a great many young families. And the notion that a dog may be reformed or trained after only one hour is risible. Meaning expenses mount. But hey, who needs to eat, pay a mortgage, or clothe their children - we are all shareholders in Apple Inc. and money is no object.


Insurance may cover the cost.
No behaviorist worth their salt would suggest that problems can be solved in one visit. Though interestingly Millans TV show does suggest that things can be fixed in a 30 minute TV segment. But I digress
No behaviorist worth their salt subscribes to dominance/pack leader baloney in order to address resource guarding and fearful/reactive behaviors. Good behaviorists understand that dogs are not pack animals and seek beyond debunked paradigms to understand the motivations behind behaviors.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Nobody has said anything about any book being the holy commandments or whatever. Several books have been recommended, suggestions have been given for management and training, a behaviourist has been recommended along with seeing whether insurance will cover the cost of one, bringing up the issues at the training class the OP attends has been suggested. Not sure why you're so upset about the fact some of us disagree that CMs books are the way to go.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

To the OP I would ask how is your young dog around the house in general? Does she come when called, wait when requested and get off furniture/move out of the way when asked? If the answer is yes (and I know you said she is good in puppy class but in my experience that does not always translate into a puppy understanding the information around the home!) then the situation in the garden becomes an isolated one and is then most probably a case of your young dog not always understanding what you are getting so steamed up about. (As other have said, *we* may know that bit of the garden is fenced off but they dont!). Think ahead - get the lead before you go to her, approach calmly and reward her for standing/coming towards you and lead her gently (but firmly!) away.

Of course if the answer to the question as to how she behaves at home is no, then more work is definitely needed.

As for books ..well hows about something like The Complete Idiots Guide to Positive Dog Training. Fun, informative and will help you as she grows up.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Positive-Training-Lifestyle-Paperback/dp/1615640665

And if you are able to get to classes ask your trainer for a little advice at the end of the class .........

J


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Not sure why you're so upset about the fact some of us disagree that CMs books are the way to go.


The OP asked for book recommendations.

Included amongst the several I recommended - from several authors - was Millan. Not on top of the list, but for an inexperienced owner I think his books have merit. A while since I read them, but I can't recall reading something which made me think "Whoa! That is unacceptable"

Others disagree. Which is ok. We are adults, enjoying the benefits of a democracy, everybody is entitled to have opinions, preferences and aversions.

MY only critique was that whilst a great many seemingly have a huge bone to pick with Millan, when pressed what SPECIFICALLY this is based on, answers are either absent or nebulous.

And to me the argument "I just don't like the guy and his methods are oldfashioned " isn't a rational argument to dismiss his approach if it helps dog & owner.

The one aspect I am certain of is that Millan spared thousands of dogs from a one way trip to the vet. Conversly, I have never ONCE heard or read that DUE to his suggested method, a dog had to be destroyed. Have you?

Now if anyone could point me to the particular pages in any of his books suggesting that a dog should be harshly treated or disrespected, I might change my opinion. I got "affection", "exercise" and "conveying info which a dog can understand". If those are his "crimes" for which he deserves to be villified, oh my....


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> The OP asked for book recommendations.
> 
> Included amongst the several I recommended - from several authors - was Millan. Not on top of the list, but for an inexperienced owner I think his books have merit. A while since I read them, but I can't recall reading something which made me think "Whoa! That is unacceptable"
> 
> ...


No but his methods have resulted in dog deaths! Can you understand that okay?


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> No but his methods have resulted in dog deaths! Can you understand that okay?


Unless you are still a 12 year old teenager who doesn't yet understand civilized adult interaction, could you please review your conduct?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Unless you are still a 12 year old teenager who doesn't yet understand civilized adult interaction, could you please review your conduct?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I was just checking you understood that one as you seem to have issues understanding my posts, just being considerate to your problems!

So again CM's training has resulted in the death of a dog.

His methods are dangerous and confrontational, given the dog in question is already trying to bite in fear I'd strongly advise the OP not to waste money on the books by CM given the information you have given about your dog!


----------



## Papirats (Mar 26, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Unless you are still a 12 year old teenager


Most 12 year olds aren't teenagers 

Maybe I'm cynical or possibly completely naive but I doubt someone with as much moolah behind him as CM is without PR.. I don't claim to be an expert but he works with some pretty extreme behaviours so unless he has a 100% success rate I'd be willing to believe if something went wrong it could end in a dog's death. Whether it would be directly a result of his erm.. training.. I don't know but I don't think he's Doggy Jesus - and some people genuinely do seem to think that. Maybe that's why people who are against his methods can be quite vehement about it - because they've been faced with pro-Cesar types who are equally vehement, they genuinely have an issue with his methods and are equally passionate?
Passions do tend to flare a bit when it comes to stuff like this (and I thought the rat world was dramatic )


----------



## loopylori (Feb 10, 2014)

to the OP, I think many posts ago you said recall wasn't great. I recently bought
Total recall by Pippa Mattison and it is a fab book, simple,logical and I wish I had heard of it when Titan was a small puppy. It is harder to teach now he is older but finally I have hope of being able to let him off lead. In fact I did so at the river this weekend, which after a couple of disastrous episodes when he was younger I would never have thought possible. He is still a work in progress.
Also check out kikopup on you tube.


----------



## Guest (May 8, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> The OP asked for book recommendations.
> 
> Included amongst the several I recommended - from several authors - was Millan. Not on top of the list, but for an inexperienced owner I think his books have merit. A while since I read them, but I can't recall reading something which made me think "Whoa! That is unacceptable"
> 
> ...


Here are my specific objections to recommending Millans books and methods bearing in mind that we are talking about a dog who appears to have a lack of trust and who has progressed through to threatening the use of teeth. This suggests to me that several other signals have been ignored. 
1) Millans methods are based on confrontation, not cooperation. Confronting a dog who is this lacking in trust is going to endanger the handler (and the dog) and will definitely further erode trust making things even harder for the OP (and this dog) in the long run.
2) Millan explains in his book how to physically correct a dog. In this particular case adding physical corrections could most definitely result in someone getting bitten. 
3) Millans explanations of dog body language and motivations (dominance/submission) are grossly inaccurate and could lead to an owner completely misinterpreting their dogs motivations. This lack of understanding further erodes trust and communication. 
4) Other than his exercise discipline affection mantra, he offers no practical, specific protocols for dealing with things such as resource guarding or even your basic recall cue. There is literally zero explanations in his book on how to teach a dog a cue and gain compliance.



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> And to me the argument "I just don't like the guy and his methods are oldfashioned " isn't a rational argument to dismiss his approach if it helps dog & owner.


 See objections delineated above.



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> The one aspect I am certain of is that Millan spared thousands of dogs from a one way trip to the vet. Conversly, I have never ONCE heard or read that DUE to his suggested method, a dog had to be destroyed. Have you?


Im in the US where we have been blessed with Millans presence for many years now. I can attest personally that his suggested methods DO cause dogs to aggress against their owners and in turn DO cause dogs to be destroyed. 
Conversely the number of dogs he has supposedly saved is grossly exaggerated by his very savvy PR team. And there are ridiculously few follow ups on dogs he has supposedly saved.



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Now if anyone could point me to the particular pages in any of his books suggesting that a dog should be harshly treated or disrespected, I might change my opinion. I got "affection", "exercise" and "conveying info which a dog can understand". If those are his "crimes" for which he deserves to be villified, oh my....


Exercise is not the panacea he purports it to be. For one, not all dogs can nor should be exercised vigorously every day. Other dogs do a fabulous job of getting fitter and fitter and needing more and more exercise to get worn out. 
Secondly, if the only way your dog is tolerable to live with is if hes constantly worn out, Id contend that youre not really fixing anything. 
I dont see how he conveys info which a dog can understand. None of his books save his last one (green cover, cant remember the name of it) explain how to teach a dog a cue. Its all about energy and attitude and dominance which might sound cool n all, but it isnt practical, clear methodology that your average non dog obsessed person can follow.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Pretty much what Ouesi says really.

I have used methods much the same as the ones CM uses myself. I ended up with one dog terrified and shut down around me and one who wouldn't hesitate to use his teeth, thankfully he had excellent bite inhibition. Wolf avoided me wherever possible at home and although his obedience was excellent he was never comfortable around me and obeyed through fear. Shadow showed no obvious fear like Wolf did but at certain times his behaviour probably was fear based. In general his obedience was crap, he was not good with adult humans, was a terrible resource guarder when it came to food and if you tried getting him to do something he didn't want to do...well the teeth came into play.

Neither relationship is what anyone should be striving for with their dogs. And with both dogs the relationship was greatly improved when I dropped all the confrontational alpha rubbish and started looking at alternative methods of training. Shadows issues pretty much disappeared and Wolf became much more relaxed around me.

So, along with the points Ouesi makes which I fully agree with I have my own personal experience with methods more or less exactly the same as CMs (minus the mystical "energy" stuff), a dog traumatised by them and a dog who, like the OPs dog, showed willing to use teeth.


----------



## cookielucylou (Jun 19, 2013)

Yes she does generally do what she is told in the house. She always waits nicely for her food, goes to her bed, gets off the sofa when told if she is caught on there etc.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

It does sound as though she's a good little dog, apart from this tendency to snap now and then and even then, a snap isn't a bite, it's a warning. I know you may think she has no business warning you, but it's the only way she has to communicate when she feels overwhelmed or anxious.

I'm sure you will be able to solve this problem if you follow the advice given to you by others on this thread.

Good luck.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Here are my specific objections to recommending Millan's books and methods bearing in mind that we are talking about a dog who appears to have a lack of trust and who has progressed through to threatening the use of teeth. This suggests to me that several other signals have been ignored.
> 1) Millan's methods are based on confrontation, not cooperation. Confronting a dog who is this lacking in trust is going to endanger the handler (and the dog) and will definitely further erode trust making things even harder for the OP (and this dog) in the long run.
> 2) Millan explains in his book how to physically correct a dog. In this particular case adding physical corrections could most definitely result in someone getting bitten.
> 3) Millan's explanations of dog body language and motivations (dominance/submission) are grossly inaccurate and could lead to an owner completely misinterpreting their dog's motivations. This lack of understanding further erodes trust and communication.
> ...


Thank you for presenting a cogent and rational argument.

Whilst I perceive many aspects of his philosophy differently to yourself - e.g. I STRONGLY believe that a great many dogs develop behavioural issues from lack of exercise in the first place , as well as from their owners highly inconsistent and erratic training and handling techniques - I now partially understand the reservation against him.

Not entirely sure what to say about the alleged absence of cues. My own CM books are on loan to a friend and the only thing I found on youtube was this:

Cesar's New DVD: Sit and Stay the Cesar Way - YouTube

(in case the link from my ipad doesn't work, the search term was "Cesar Millan , recall" which yielded "Cesar's New DVD: Sit and Stay the Cesar Way")

Even from the most critical perspective imaginable I can't take issue with the method used or endorsed.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

cookielucylou said:


> Yes she does generally do what she is told in the house. She always waits nicely for her food, goes to her bed, gets off the sofa when told if she is caught on there etc.


Excellent. Then it does seem as if this behaviour is an isolated one, which in turn points to a confused young dog rather than one with emerging behavioural issues. As Sweety has just said snapping (and if there has been no connection it is as likely to be an air snap as anything else which means that your dog not intending to make contact) is a way a dog will show it's anxious or overwhelmed. Managing the situation calmly will ensure that the dog understands what is expected of it and doesn't feel the need to react. Everyones a winner.

J


----------



## Guest (May 8, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Thank you for presenting a cogent and rational argument.
> 
> Whilst I perceive many aspects of his philosophy differently to yourself - e.g. I STRONGLY believe that a great many dogs develop behavioural issues from lack of exercise in the first place , as well as from their owners highly inconsistent and erratic training and handling techniques - I now partially understand the reservation against him.
> 
> ...


Nope, nothing wrong with that (though if I wanted to be super picky, I'd rather see a long line attached to a body harness, not a collar). 
But, that's not Millan's method though is it? It's Millan presenting a trainer who then in turn teaches the recall. Which is fine BTW, I'm just explaining what I mean by Millan himself doesn't know how to teach basic cues. 
I mean, I'm a nobody, but even I could take a dog/owner off the street and give them about 10 different techniques for teaching recall, with different combinations of rewards and tools more likely to work for that dog/owner pair.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

After seeing how CM deals with dogs that resource guard (Holly the lab as the latest example, but there are countless others) there is no way his methods should be used on a dog that has already shown they are willing to bite in defense.

That is just an "accident" waiting to happen :nonod:

To the OP, I can only echo what others have said about checking out your insurance to see if it covers a behaviourist, you NEED someone that knows what they are doing to help you through this and in the mean time make sure that kids and dog are separated whenever food or high value treats/toys are around. 

Am bulls are very independent thinkers (some say stubborn lol), their training needs to be consistent, fair and rewarding. If the reward isn't high enough then they will go off and entertain themselves. The rewards can be food, games, environmental, toys or just a plain old pat but the key is to find out what your dog values the most (for my boy it is his ball or ham...he loooves ham lol)..

Once you have tapped into what makes your girl tick you will find training a joy and your girl will want to please you because pleasing you is far more rewarding than doing her own thing 

If a behaviourist really isn't an option then please have a chat with your trainer about the issues you are having as they may be able to give you some pointers.


----------

