# Human behaviours that could cause conflict...



## sbonnett76 (Apr 6, 2010)

I'm having a think about what human behaviours could cause conflict between two dogs so thought I'd put it out there for some thought.

Imagine that there are two dogs meeting in a park for the first time and one is on lead, the other is off lead. What human behaviour could lead to conflict between the two dogs and what could be done instead to avoid comflict and ensure an amicable greeting?


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

The human behavior of allowing an off leash dog to approach a leashed dog could cause conflict 

Personally I don't allow my dogs to approach other dogs at all, and if an off-leash dog (or leashed) approaches mine, I cue mine to ignore and do my best to keep the other dog away.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

People round here must not walk their dog very often we never bump into another dog walker :lol:

However we've had the pup at pets @ home , on the lead of course when a man came around the corner with his [insertbreedhere]poo him and blade went to sniff each other and the man dragged, practically launched his dog away from Blade. Blade went OH FLYING DOG and had a jump towards him as he obviously thought it was play time which caused the other dog to snack and growl at Blade.

Now my opinion is, if that man hadn't of swing balled his dog away from Blade, that situation wouldn't have happened. I obviously called him an idiot and told him it's people like him that create dog aggressive dogs. A$$hat :angry:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

People pull their dogs in to a confrontational stance, they don't allow their dogs to greet the other naturally, I personal think straight away an on lead dog is at a huge disadvantage to the off lead dog, because the poor dog has a blundering human at the end of the lead taking away any chance of a natural greeting..  and the off lead dog has a blundering human holding his lead and allowing him to greet on lead dogs lol


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> People round here must not walk their dog very often we never bump into another dog walker :lol:
> 
> However we've had the pup at pets @ home , on the lead of course when a man came around the corner with his [insertbreedhere]poo him and blade went to sniff each other and the man dragged, practically launched his dog away from Blade. Blade went OH FLYING DOG and had a jump towards him as he obviously thought it was play time which caused the other dog to snack and growl at Blade.
> 
> Now my opinion is, if that man hadn't of swing balled his dog away from Blade, that situation wouldn't have happened.* I obviously called him an idiot and told him it's people like him that create dog aggressive dogs.* A$$hat :angry:


Wow. Maybe he was panicking due to his dog's previous reactions to onlead meetings or because he was afraid of Blade's breed or something. Not the greatest reaction in the world but when you are struggling with a reactive dog and inadvertently cock up it makes you feel absolutely fecking awful when people have a go at and judge you. Shouting at someone in PAH is a human behaviour that could cause conflict.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Dogless said:


> Wow. Maybe he was panicking due to his dog's previous reactions to onlead meetings or because he was afraid of Blade's breed or something. Not the greatest reaction in the world but when you are struggling with a reactive dog and inadvertently cock up it makes you feel absolutely fecking awful when people have a go at and judge you. Shouting at someone in PAH is a human behaviour that could cause conflict.


His dog wasn't aggressive, in fact it's tail was wagging as he approached Blade, no confrontational signs from either of them. His dog was also a pup so in my opinion he was turning the experience of his puppy meeting another puppy into a negative one. If he continues to do that , his dog will assume that meeting another dog is a bad thing?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> His dog wasn't aggressive, in fact it's tail was wagging as he approached Blade, no confrontational signs from either of them. His dog was also a pup so in my opinion he was turning the experience of his puppy meeting another puppy into a negative one. If he continues to do that , his dog will assume that meeting another dog is a bad thing?


But surely insulting people isn't the way to try and get your message across? Or maybe, like me, he doesn't allow on lead meetings at all and was taken by surprise. I have been called all sorts for not allowing on lead meetings but I don't and that is my decision - being told off for it by other owners who assume that their dog can meet has happened to me on several occasions. He might have responded rudely to you as Blade's lunge escalated things but by the sounds of it he was polite enough not to.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Dogless said:


> But surely insulting people isn't the way to try and get your message across? Or maybe, like me, he doesn't allow on lead meetings at all and was taken by surprise. I have been called all sorts for not allowing on lead meetings but I don't and that is my decision - being told off for it by other owners who assume that their dog can meet has happened to me on several occasions.


You wouldn't swing your dog away by its collar and leader though, there lies the difference. Part of my comment was for his reaction the other part was for almost snapping his poor pups neck and just letting it hit the ground on the other side. He was the one walking towards me, we had Blade sat beside us while we were looking in the freezers.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I do try to give everyone and their dog the benefit of the doubt and usually would ask them to call their dog so they can put it back on lead, and we can then have a calm and relaxed greeting.

If the owners are able to stand a short distance apart, chatting and getting a feel for each others dog then I think the dogs pick up on their relaxed attitude.

If someone says that their dog can be a bit grumpy I will usually just ask if he is ok with people and then give the dog a greeting myself and the owner can greet Jack. Usually, it has then been possible to allow a greeting between the dogs, especially as Jack is totally non-threatening and other dogs usually accept him exceptionally well, even if they might otherwise be a bit wary. 

He has even enabled a number of fearful dogs to engage with him and have really good experiences of greeting another dog. These have often been rescues and usually have lacked appropriate socialisation.

Of course, I am extremely careful not to put him in a dangerous position, and if someone says their dog is not friendly, then I would not allow them to greet. But I do think that some dogs, when given the chance, can accept other dogs. 

I am particularly keen to allow people with on-lead puppies to greet Jack because he gives them a great experience for their learning.

We could all find ourselves with a reactive/unfriendly dog at the drop of a hat following a sudden and bad experience so I would hope that people would be understanding. There but for the grace of god ....


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## considerthis (Nov 22, 2012)

no I think your right. if someone is walking toward us and has their dogs on leads I will put mine on too. it's just common sense, (and manners) but saying that if they let their dog come flying over with just a brief "my dog's ok" then I wont put mine on leads, chances are everything will be fine but if its a strange dog you've never met before you can't be certain. but I wouldn't subject my dog to being stuck to me while a bouncy leaps around them. i'd be terrified in that position.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> His dog wasn't aggressive, in fact it's tail was wagging as he approached Blade, no confrontational signs from either of them. His dog was also a pup so in my opinion he was turning the experience of his puppy meeting another puppy into a negative one. If he continues to do that , his dog will assume that meeting another dog is a bad thing?


Tail wagging is not always a sign of a happy dog just saying.


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## DoYouLikeDags (Sep 29, 2013)

Just curious and I appreciate all dogs are not friendly. But given the opportunity why would you not let your dog socialise with other friendly dogs?


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Tail wagging is not always a sign of a happy dog just saying.


I'm more than aware of that, had there been even a hint of aggression from either of them I wouldn't have let blade sniff back. He doesn't distinguish between who wants to greet him nicely and who wants to maul his face off.

If he didn't want his dog to greet mine why walk towards me then allow his dog to approach mine before ripping it back by his leader.

You can all say you wouldn't have said this or you wouldn't have said that , it was my knee jerk reaction after watching a pup that wanted to say hello being torn away so harshly without a second thought.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> You wouldn't swing your dog away by its collar and leader though, there lies the difference. Part of my comment was for his reaction the other part was for almost snapping his poor pups neck and just letting it hit the ground on the other side. He was the one walking towards me, we had Blade sat beside us while we were looking in the freezers.


Maybe he just panicked? I just don't know why you felt the need to be rude to him about it TBH. ETA just seen it was your knee jerk reaction.



DoYouLikeDags said:


> Just curious and I appreciate all dogs are not friendly. But given the opportunity why would you not let your dog socialise with other friendly dogs?


On lead meetings; never - even with dogs we know we meet and walk on together - maybe a 2 second sniff first. Offlead - depends on what I am doing but I like to talk to the owner first and have a controlled greeting. Dogs that just appear ownerless are awful and restrict my walking areas quite drastically and I do not believe people who just shout that theirs is friendly. One of my biggest mistakes with Kilo was quantity above quality of socialisation and taking people at face value. The dogs who have attacked him; even the serious attack are all "friendly" or "OK with other dogs" .


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I'm more than aware of that, had there been even a hint of aggression from either of them I wouldn't have let blade sniff back. He doesn't distinguish between who wants to greet him nicely and who wants to maul his face off.
> 
> If he didn't want his dog to greet mine why walk towards me then allow his dog to approach mine before ripping it back by his leader.
> 
> You can all say you wouldn't have said this or you wouldn't have said that , it was my knee jerk reaction after watching a pup that wanted to say hello being torn away so harshly without a second thought.


I wasn't making comment on anything else, just the fact that a wagging tail is not a good indication of a happy dog..


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

DoYouLikeDags said:


> Just curious and I appreciate all dogs are not friendly. But given the opportunity why would you not let your dog socialise with other friendly dogs?


For me the problem lies within one word " friendly" what many people deem as friendly my dog finds rude, pushy, overwhelming. My dog has plenty of friends and the skill of being able to ignore other dogs is just as important if not more than important than greeting all and sundry


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

DoYouLikeDags said:


> Just curious and I appreciate all dogs are not friendly. But given the opportunity why would you not let your dog socialise with other friendly dogs?


I do, but not if one dog is on the lead and the other is off.

It's not even great if two dogs are on lead tbh.

If they are off lead it's via mutual consent that both dogs are okay, an off lead dog does not mean a friendly dog and what you consider "friendly" might not be my definition of friendly.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2013)

DoYouLikeDags said:


> Just curious and I appreciate all dogs are not friendly. But given the opportunity why would you not let your dog socialise with other friendly dogs?


Because not all dogs are compatible, 
Because not all dogs have owners who are observant enough to intervene before they get over-aroused, 
Because not all dogs have owners who enough control to be able to intervene
Because not all dogs have owners who understand normal dog interactions,
Because not all dogs have bite inhibition and self control despite being friendly,

But mostly because I have absolutely zero need for my dogs to interact with dogs I don't know. They have each other, and they can play with compatible dogs owned by friends who are as obsessive as I am


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

> Because not all dogs are compatible,
> Because not all dogs have owners who are observant enough to intervene before they get over-aroused,
> Because not all dogs have owners who enough control to be able to intervene
> Because not all dogs have owners who understand normal dog interactions,
> Because not all dogs have bite inhibition and self control despite being friendly,


Absolutely.

May I add

Because not all owners of friendly, happy dogs interpret really nasty dogs' body language correctly. Many folk think that because Rex is at heel and looking at me he's safe; NO HE'S NOT! He's obedient not friendly.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

sbonnett76 said:


> I'm having a think about what human behaviours could cause conflict between two dogs so thought I'd put it out there for some thought.
> 
> Imagine that there are two dogs meeting in a park for the first time and one is on lead, the other is off lead. What human behaviour could lead to conflict between the two dogs and what could be done instead to avoid comflict and ensure an amicable greeting?


Walking the onlead dog directly towards another dog (whether on or off lead) can start conflict. And in the case of terriers, another owner picking up a small dog could set them off because the sudden movement triggers chase, and exposes the back end of the dog - which a terrier is programmed to nip.

I wouldn't want to allow a greeting between an on and offlead dog but I have to sometimes if I need to introduce my dogs to a dog who might be boarding and the owner doesn't let them off lead. I'd want the 'onlead' dog to be on a very long lead to allow for freedom of movement and I'd start with walking some way apart and slowly come together when signs are good. I will in some cases use food on the floor to trigger heads down sniffing which is calming for both dogs, but first I have to 'test' the new dog for food issues (which is done on a short lead).

I can't see any time when I would want to encourage a greeting with a dog we met that was onlead if we just happened to be passing in the park. And if my dogs are onlead I would positively discourage it as much as possible.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> People round here must not walk their dog very often we never bump into another dog walker :lol:
> 
> However we've had the pup at pets @ home , on the lead of course when a man came around the corner with his [insertbreedhere]poo him and blade went to sniff each other and the man dragged, practically launched his dog away from Blade. Blade went OH FLYING DOG and had a jump towards him as he obviously thought it was play time which caused the other dog to snack and growl at Blade.
> 
> Now my opinion is, if that man hadn't of swing balled his dog away from Blade, that situation wouldn't have happened. I obviously called him an idiot and told him it's people like him that create dog aggressive dogs. A$$hat :angry:


I'm of the opposite opinion. If you hadn't let your dog jump towards the other dog, when the owner was clearly trying to make some space, the situation wouldn't have happened. How do you know if the man had let his dog sniff yours there wouldn't have been a problem of some other kind? Personally I think it's dogs that leap on other dogs that create aggressive dogs.

So there are two sides to every story! I'd be annoyed if I moved my dog away from another one and it leapt on my dog. When Fred was younger he really wasn't very good with puppies, especially if he was on a lead, and what might start as an innocent sniff could turn into a snap - which puppies aren't usually experienced enough to avoid.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

BoredomBusters said:


> Personally I think it's dogs that leap on other dogs that create aggressive dogs.


This. Absolutely this. It creates fearful dogs, fed up dogs, reactive dogs, aggressive dogs. The lab that leapt on Kilo's head when he was on his lead every time it saw us for 18 months has now grown out of a fast speed approach and full contact and now only approaches slowly. For 18 months I was asking the man to please stop his dog doing that yet he was unable to recall him (this was by roads) and all he ever said was "Mine's friendly". Now there is a spaniel who has an owner that does the same. When I spoke to her owner the man with the lab had reassured her that they grow out of it.

I have a theory that all the dogs who are allowed to do as they please eventually mature into calm, sociable dogs (the ones round here do anyway) but at what cost to everyone else? They seem to leave scattered in their wake dogs with behavioural "issues".


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

DoYouLikeDags said:


> Just curious and I appreciate all dogs are not friendly. But given the opportunity why would you not let your dog socialise with other friendly dogs?


My dogs idea of socialising while on leash is not polite. He's not aggressive but he is completely different to how he is off leash. Off leash his greetings are fairly polite and it tends to be greet and move on. On leash it tends to be "oh my god a dog, jump on its head, harass it, don't take no for an answer!" which tends not to go down well with a lot of dogs. And personally, like others, I believe it is this sort of behaviour that causes problems for other dogs. If I can't avoid an on leash meeting (it can be very hard when both your dog and a loose dog are desperate to meet) then I allow a couple of seconds of sniffing and move Spen on before he gets a chance to be obnoxious.

I also think that the "fool around" choice of the fight/flight thing comes into it with Spen, he gets silly on leash because he can't get away and he really, really doesn't want to fight.


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## sbonnett76 (Apr 6, 2010)

One thing I have found since owning a second dog who is amazing around all other dogs is how good it is to have a decoy now!

For whatever reason, all dogs make a beeline towards Roxy, which spells trouble because she cannot greet anything. She is always on a long line anyway so if I see anything coming towards me, I'm hollering to the owner to get their dog back because, aside from Roxy's issues, I don't want her to be in a situation where she's on a lead and is being approached by something off lead. 

But, now we have Lord Luther, when we were in a situatation the other day we were shown how great it was to have him. We were walking across a footbal pitch and a small fluffy dog started to wander over to us. I automatically asked the lady to get her dog away from Roxy, but of course small fluffy wasn't having any of it. So, I started to walk Luther towards smally fluffy and the two of them had a little sniff whilst the lady reached us. In the meantime, hubby had taken Roxy to behind the gate and although she was going mental, but at least all animals were safe and nothing escalated!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

sbonnett76 said:


> One thing I have found since owning a second dog who is amazing around all other dogs is how good it is to have a decoy now!
> 
> For whatever reason, all dogs make a beeline towards Roxy, which spells trouble because she cannot greet anything. She is always on a long line anyway so if I see anything coming towards me, I'm hollering to the owner to get their dog back because, aside from Roxy's issues, I don't want her to be in a situation where she's on a lead and is being approached by something off lead.
> 
> But, now we have Lord Luther, when we were in a situatation the other day we were shown how great it was to have him. We were walking across a footbal pitch and a small fluffy dog started to wander over to us. I automatically asked the lady to get her dog away from Roxy, but of course small fluffy wasn't having any of it. So, I started to walk Luther towards smally fluffy and the two of them had a little sniff whilst the lady reached us. In the meantime, hubby had taken Roxy to behind the gate and although she was going mental, but at least all animals were safe and nothing escalated!


Yes, Rudi is quite a good decoy too!


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## DoYouLikeDags (Sep 29, 2013)

I was just asking as I am a fairly new dog owner and have a French Bulldog puppy that I have not allowed off leash as yet.

We wanted her to get used to meeting other dogs and so far the majority of meetings have been with both dogs on leash and all have been successful. We have also had a couple of meetings with our dog on lead and the other dog off lead and had no problems. Perhaps we have just been lucky so far.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm looking at the question from the POV that my dog is the one on lead..

One of the worst things I can do is pull my dog away. Now, this is quite difficult because I know that if he is on lead and 'greeting' a dog, at some point he is going to snap at it whether I pull him away or not. So I dont allow on lead greetings but obviously there are times when i've been caught off guard, perhaps at a dog show, and he is nose to nose with a dog. As soon as he feels the pull on that lead, he goes in for a lunge and a snap. So my dilemma is do I pull him away and guarantee a snap, or leave him to interact with the dog and risk a 95% chance he will snap anyway?

I also have to be very careful about how I get rid of an unwanted dog. Any shooing motions or shouting means my dog feels he has to back me up and join in.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

DoYouLikeDags said:


> I was just asking as I am a fairly new dog owner and have a French Bulldog puppy that I have not allowed off leash as yet.
> 
> We wanted her to get used to meeting other dogs and so far the majority of meetings have been with both dogs on leash and all have been successful. We have also had a couple of meetings with our dog on lead and the other dog off lead and had no problems. Perhaps we have just been lucky so far.


This is well worth a read: Out and About with Your Dog - Dog to Dog Interactions on the Street, on the Trails, and in the Dog Park eBook: Sue Sternberg: Amazon.co.uk: Books

As I said before, my main mistake with my eldest dog was quantity over quality of socialisation and also meetings on leads. I still allow a brief (2 second or so) sniff if it can't be avoided but as Sue Sternberg notes only two things can happen with onlead meetings; play or fighting neither of which are desirable. I found that Kilo would become anxious / excited / stressed about onlead meetings and removing the expectation of a meeting altogether with him has worked wonders. Well, had, we can't walk where we might meet another dog at present!!

With Rudi (my youngest) I have stuck to the "no on lead meetings" rule from his first walk and, as there is no expectation there, walking past / around other dogs whilst he is on a lead has so far (touch wood) proved to be pretty easy. He is "working" with me whilst his lead is attached and offlead he can play with other dogs with my and their owner's consent. I also make another dog appearing offlead mean that I am fun so that, in the main, Rudi will ignore other dogs and look to me. That said, I let my pups off from their very first walk.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

DoYouLikeDags said:


> Just curious and I appreciate all dogs are not friendly. But given the opportunity why would you not let your dog socialise with other friendly dogs?


Firstly, because I dont trust other owners ideas of 'friendly' and friendly dogs are often more problematic than aggressive dogs when it comes to eliciting bad reactions from the dogs they greet.

Secondly, because I strive for my dogs to be dog neutral. That means they are socialised but have no desire to go running over to other dogs and will happily ignore them. IMO, by allowing dogs to greet lots of other dogs, and encouraging it, we are giving them the green light to approach willy nilly, and taking the focus off us and transferring it on to dogs. When I take my trio out, I want them to see me as their source of guidance and entertainment, I do not want them to think that going for a walk means they get to run around with other dogs, ignoring my presence.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

DoYouLikeDags said:


> I was just asking as I am a fairly new dog owner and have a French Bulldog puppy that I have not allowed off leash as yet.
> 
> We wanted her to get used to meeting other dogs and so far the majority of meetings have been with both dogs on leash and all have been successful. We have also had a couple of meetings with our dog on lead and the other dog off lead and had no problems. Perhaps we have just been lucky so far.


If you have been walking your puppy on lead up to another dog and they have been greeting face to face you are teaching your puppy to do the equivalent of patting strangers on the bottom instead of shaking hands. They will get away with this as a pup, in the same way a 5 year old child might get away with it - but a 15 year old teenager wouldn't. Problems might start when your dog is older, with other dogs reacting badly to being greeted in this rude manner and you will be thinking 'but my dog is friendly'. When actually he's been taught rude behaviour by you.


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## DoYouLikeDags (Sep 29, 2013)

BoredomBusters said:


> If you have been walking your puppy on lead up to another dog and they have been greeting face to face you are teaching your puppy to do the equivalent of patting strangers on the bottom instead of shaking hands. They will get away with this as a pup, in the same way a 5 year old child might get away with it - but a 15 year old teenager wouldn't. Problems might start when your dog is older, with other dogs reacting badly to being greeted in this rude manner and you will be thinking 'but my dog is friendly'. When actually he's been taught rude behaviour by you.


Can you explain why you consider greeting face to face rude please?

Apologies to OP for going slightly off topic


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

DoYouLikeDags said:


> Can you explain why you consider greeting face to face rude please?
> 
> Apologies to OP for going slightly off topic


It is considered rude and possibly challenging in the dog world, sniffing each others backsides is the usual way for dogs to check each other out.

As humans, eye contact is important and so we look at each other when we communicate, to look away is considered bad manners. In the dog world, to look at each other for any length of time is seen as threatening so forced face to face greetings are not natural.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

DoYouLikeDags said:


> *Can you explain why you consider greeting face to face rude please?*
> 
> Apologies to OP for going slightly off topic


I don't find it rude at all. DOGS find it rude, and it's not something I 'consider', it's a fact. A polite dog greeting is sniffing the rear end, then the undercarriage, then the shoulder/head area. Dogs are driven by scent, not sight like humans, so want to check out the smelly bits first, not the bit they see first. Because of this polite dogs will walk towards each other in a kind of arc, not straight on, as they are avoiding staring each other in the eye (which can be seen as challenging) and aiming for each others rear ends. This is why dogs on leads end up tying each others leads up as they circle to get their noses to each others back ends.

Walking straight up to another dog and approaching from the front could be seen as extremely challenging and can stress other dogs out, especially with a breed like yours and the way their eyes are set on their faces.


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Tail wagging is not always a sign of a happy dog just saying.


Mia has a very expressive 'i'm not that happy about this' wag. OH still doesn't recognise it for what it is despite me showing him the difference every time.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

I usually tell people my dogs tails are wagging as they rip a rabbit limb from limb...


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## Emmastace (Feb 11, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> *For me the problem lies within one word " friendly" what many people deem as friendly my dog finds rude, pushy, overwhelming. *My dog has plenty of friends and the skill of being able to ignore other dogs is just as important if not more than important than greeting all and sundry


My one fear is the owner that shouts 'my dog is friendly', my heart drops as their dog bounces towards mine, wagging, and leaping up to greet mine. That's when you know they just don't have a bleedin' clue, they are unlikely to have any recall or control, and they are going to blame you and your dog if it all goes pear shaped.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Emmastace said:


> My one fear is the owner that shouts 'my dog is friendly', my heart drops as their dog bounces towards mine, wagging, and leaping up to greet mine. That's when you know they just don't have a bleedin' clue, they are unlikely to have any recall or control, and they are going to blame you and your dog if it all goes pear shaped.


Oh absolutely all too horribly familiar and sadly it's the dog walkers that are the worst for it around here ... calling out "They're ok".... indeed they are, my dog however is shite scared of the hoard charging toward us :rolleyes


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## DoYouLikeDags (Sep 29, 2013)

I think I will leave this forum it seems to be filled with judgmental, unhelpful and generally mean spirited people. You talk about dogs being rude you should check yourselves.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

DoYouLikeDags said:


> I think I will leave this forum it seems to be filled with judgmental, unhelpful and generally mean spirited people. You talk about dogs being rude you should check yourselves.


Who has been unhelpful to you? I think people have made the effort to reply to you pretty comprehensively. Anyway, sorry if the forum isn't for you, I wish you luck with your pup.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

DoYouLikeDags said:


> I think I will leave this forum it seems to be filled with judgmental, unhelpful and generally mean spirited people. You talk about dogs being rude you should check yourselves.


Where? You were stating you had no problems, so people were just alerting you that might cause you problems in the future. I carefully explained why when you asked. If you found that not to your liking then I am very sorry for that, but that's life. If you have a dog you have a responsibility to learn about dog behaviour.

Good luck with your puppy, and I sincerly hope you do not encounter (or create) any problems, but I do fear you will join the 'but he's friendly!' brigade if you consider advice based on scientific studies of dog behaviour (and a hell of a lot of observation in my case with over 300 dogs cared for by me in the last 7 years) to be mean spirited and unhelpful. :/


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> I'm looking at the question from the POV that my dog is the one on lead..
> 
> One of the worst things I can do is pull my dog away. Now, this is quite difficult because I know that if he is on lead and 'greeting' a dog, at some point he is going to snap at it whether I pull him away or not. So I dont allow on lead greetings but obviously there are times when i've been caught off guard, perhaps at a dog show, and he is nose to nose with a dog. As soon as he feels the pull on that lead, he goes in for a lunge and a snap. So my dilemma is do I pull him away and guarantee a snap, or leave him to interact with the dog and risk a 95% chance he will snap anyway?
> 
> *I also have to be very careful about how I get rid of an unwanted dog. Any shooing motions or shouting means my dog feels he has to back me up and join in*.


Exactly, I know that Roxy would kick off even more I wasn't careful.

However, bearing in mind what was said about dogs & being under control on the CSI course I would have no hesitation now in making sure the other dog did not get too close no matter what I had to do.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> Exactly, I know that Roxy would kick off even more I wasn't careful.
> 
> However, bearing in mind what was said about dogs & being under control on the CSI course I would have no hesitation now in making sure the other dog did not get too close no matter what I had to do.


I understand if you don't want to say too much as that then compromises course content in some way - but if you don't mind could you expand upon what was said a little? No worries if you don't want to .


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dogless said:


> I understand if you don't want to say too much as that then compromises course content in some way - but if you don't mind could you expand upon what was said a little? No worries if you don't want to .


That even if your dog was leashed & an offlead dog ran over your dog could still deemed 'not under control' if it attacked the offlead dog. A dog is not allowed to protect itself unfortunately.

Apparently though the law states that a person, if concerned for their safety & their property (their dog who is considered 'property') they are able to protect themselves & their property using what means they see fit.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> That even if your dog was leashed & an offlead dog ran over your dog could still deemed 'not under control' if it attacked the offlead dog. A dog is not allowed to protect itself unfortunately.
> 
> Apparently though the law states that a person, if concerned for their safety & their property (their dog who is considered 'property') they are able to protect themselves & their property using what means they see fit.


Thank you.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> That even if your dog was leashed & an offlead dog ran over your dog could still deemed 'not under control' if it attacked the offlead dog. A dog is not allowed to protect itself unfortunately.
> 
> Apparently though the law states that a person, if concerned for their safety & their property (their dog who is considered 'property') they are able to protect themselves & their property using what means they see fit.


According to Trevor Cooper (Doglaw - SPECIALIST ADVICE ON DOG LAW) the courts consider 'under control' to mean on a lead or in a muzzle (or both). Trevor has given advice which is contradictory to John Rogerson's many times, so I would take legal advice from the specialist.

Nothing against John of course! I've done lots of his courses and hope to do more, but it is my experience over the years that some of the advice or scenarios he gives to do with legal issues are not the current most up do date experiences that Trevor advises on.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

DoYouLikeDags said:


> I think I will leave this forum it seems to be filled with judgmental, unhelpful and generally mean spirited people. You talk about dogs being rude you should check yourselves.


 Where on earth has anyone been rude, unhelpful, judgemental or mean spirited? You asked a question, you had it answered and nobody was nasty about it.


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## Donut76 (May 15, 2013)

I worry about this too

Angel is always on lead when walking outside i use a short rope lead
I have a Flexi that i USED to use as a way to give her some space & freedom but now i dont use it as her lead walks need to be more controlled as she is a powerful dog even tho she isnt very large (poss 11kg)
I also have a 10m long line i use this on the field (part enclosed she can get off but not quickly & ive only taken her on & off one way so i think (hope) i can guess where she would bolt)
I sometimes drop the lead during some of the walk so i can practice recall but im always within step on distance & NEVER when there is another dog off lead on on within sight

I ALWAYS have offlead dogs running up to Angel to "play" & this puts Angel at a distinct disadvantage as she is on lead
ONE of these encounters ended up with me having 2 badly bruised & grazed knees as i had shorts on & she was on the long lead & i dunno if Angel was trying to escape-play was happy-sad-scared but she was all over the shop while i was trying & failing to keep her behind me as this big dog (2x her size easy) pounced & "played" on top of her
The dogs owner was the "HE IS FRIENDLY LET THEM PLAY" camp so i Yelled at her - MINE IS ON LEAD CALL YOUR DOG. She ambled over & by this point i was completely tangled & Angel was almost out of her harness
I told the woman to get hold of her dog coz is Angel got off her lead she would NOT come back hence her being on lead & she said "thats why my dog is interested coz you have kept yours on the lead" so i said THATS why yours should be ON a lead

She walked off tutting & that was it for our walk & play we had to come home 

Ive now found tennis courts that are almost totally enclosed & i stand at the only gap while Angel runs about - it just means i cant play WITH her coz i have to guard the doorway 

Im not sure if my human behaviour made that situation worse but that other woman certainly DID she should have either called off her dog or if she knew he wouldnt come back he should have restrained him - Angel is VERY reactive (not aggressive) so i dont let her greet dogs unless she is being polite i wish others would do the same


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

BoredomBusters said:


> According to Trevor Cooper (Doglaw - SPECIALIST ADVICE ON DOG LAW) the courts consider 'under control' to mean on a lead or in a muzzle (or both). Trevor has given advice which is contradictory to John Rogerson's many times, so I would take legal advice from the specialist.
> 
> Nothing against John of course! I've done lots of his courses and hope to do more, but it is my experience over the years that some of the advice or scenarios he gives to do with legal issues are not the current most up do date experiences that Trevor advises on.


I do understand this thats why I'm also attending one of his seminars next month & will ask the same question 

I had heard similar from a behaviourist I used to see so is the definition of 'under control' clear enough?


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I do understand this thats why I'm also attending one of his seminars next month & will ask the same question
> 
> I had heard similar from a behaviourist I used to see so is the definition of 'under control' clear enough?


The other great advice he gave was that if your dog bites someone you should get all your mates with the same breed round and get the person bitten to identify which dog it was that bit them as they can't pts a dog they can't identify. Doglaw says courts would just have them ALL destroyed to make sure they got the right one. :nonod:


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I will add that John Rogerson said that if you have knowledge that your dog isnt good with other dogs then that goes against you, even if your dog is on lead. He said that campaigns like Yellow Dog and DINOS, where dogs wear items stating they need space etc is basically admitting liability should anything happen.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Leanne77 said:


> I will add that John Rogerson said that if you have knowledge that your dog isnt good with other dogs then that goes against you, even if your dog is on lead. He said that campaigns like Yellow Dog and DINOS, where dogs wear items stating they need space etc is basically admitting liability should anything happen.


I'm going to one the seminars held by Trevor Cooper (Dog Law) & am going to ask about this one as this is idea if becoming more popular.

I did just ask ring the helpline about the onlead/offlead dog problem & it isn't as clear cut as I thought, I think it is more down to what actually happened (& where) & the history of both dogs involved rather than being on/offlead.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Yes, Rudi is quite a good decoy too!


Its funny you guys mention this as Alison says we are going to use Charlie in time to build Dotties confidence up. Hes got quite a lot of it and we are going to use him to help Dottie become more confident.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Pupcakes said:


> Its funny you guys mention this as Alison says we are going to use Charlie in time to build Dotties confidence up. Hes got quite a lot of it and we are going to use him to help Dottie become more confident.


That is my plan once Rudi is mature as long as he stays confident.


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> That even if your dog was leashed & an offlead dog ran over your dog could still deemed 'not under control' if it attacked the offlead dog. A dog is not allowed to protect itself unfortunately.
> 
> Apparently though the law states that a person, if concerned for their safety & their property (their dog who is considered 'property') they are able to protect themselves & their property using what means they see fit.


I wasnt the only one listening then


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

I have found Chester handles the situation a lot better when an off- lead or even an on-lead dog approaches him , if I loosen his leash , it's getting easier with time especially for me , as my first reaction was always to keep him close to me as more often he would kick off . So it's perhaps it's a case of us both building up that little bit of confidence and trust .


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

Think with law there is always a grey area (and i work with employment law day in and out), therefore you will get different advice from different people and even if you look at case law it will vary. I think you have to use common sense and he able to justify why you take an action. Personally think John Rogerson exaggerates BUT some of what he says makes good sense e.g. Would not have a "Beware of the Dog" sign now as it does give the wrong impression


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> I will add that John Rogerson said that if you have knowledge that your dog isnt good with other dogs then that goes against you, even if your dog is on lead. He said that campaigns like Yellow Dog and DINOS, where dogs wear items stating they need space etc is basically admitting liability should anything happen.


This is something that Trevor also has to consider, as it comes under negligence. As in - you knew your dog might bite, and didn't prevent it.

It is the main reason I don't like these schemes, also my personal feeling is that it allows some owners to rely on other people, instead of making more of an effort themselves.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I've always wondered where that leaves you with a muzzle. Would that be classed as admitting liability, knowing that your dog might injure someone/something? Or would it be seen as taking sensible precautions? My on leash, muzzled dog seriously injured one of 5 off leash dogs that were allowed to surround him on the street and it made me wonder where I'd stand legally on the matter. Seems a stupid thing to wonder but given how things can be twisted around...


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I've always wondered where that leaves you with a muzzle. Would that be classed as admitting liability, knowing that your dog might injure someone/something? Or would it be seen as taking sensible precautions? My on leash, muzzled dog seriously injured one of 5 off leash dogs that were allowed to surround him on the street and it made me wonder where I'd stand legally on the matter. Seems a stupid thing to wonder but given how things can be twisted around...


You never know which way courts will go with these things.


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## MikeNSeli (Oct 7, 2011)

sbonnett76 said:


> Imagine that there are two dogs meeting in a park for the first time and one is on lead, the other is off lead. What human behaviour could lead to conflict between the two dogs and what could be done instead to avoid comflict and ensure an amicable greeting?


Hi, sorry to resurrect an old post. I'm doing a dog training course and I've been asked to think about how the reactions of a dog owner with a dog on lead reacts to a dog off lead, and how this reaction can affect the on leads dog behavior going forwards.

Now if the off lead dog was coming over to my dog, I would ask my dog to sit and leave, and if he's on his flexi leash (I'm disabled so can't go for walks up in the fields, and a flexi leash gives him some freedom), I'd lock the extension, to about the same length as a fixed lead, not short so he doesn't feel restricted, but not long so that he could charge at the dog.

I have to look at this like a dog owner that doesn't understand the behavior that they are inadvertently teaching their dog.

I have to advise on 3 things that the owner would do. I have 2, so far, and am asking your opinion on what you think people's reactions would be. 
1) Shorten the leash
2) Pull their dog aware from the off leash dog.

- I much like a lot of you, don't trust when people shout there dog is friendly, and find the majority of these owners actually can't control their dogs, so I've started shouting back mines not so come get your dog before there's a fight, that soon gets there backside in motion (obviously my boy is friendly otherwise he'd be muzzled.. but teaches the moron a lesson.. I hope)..


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Leanne77 said:


> I'm looking at the question from the POV that my dog is the one on lead..
> 
> One of the worst things I can do is pull my dog away. Now, this is quite difficult because I know that if he is on lead and 'greeting' a dog, at some point he is going to snap at it whether I pull him away or not. So I dont allow on lead greetings but obviously there are times when i've been caught off guard, perhaps at a dog show, and he is nose to nose with a dog. As soon as he feels the pull on that lead, he goes in for a lunge and a snap. So my dilemma is do I pull him away and guarantee a snap, or leave him to interact with the dog and risk a 95% chance he will snap anyway?
> 
> I also have to be very careful about how I get rid of an unwanted dog. Any shooing motions or shouting means my dog feels he has to back me up and join in.


I am in the same position with mine. I leave the lead loose. If there is any sign of avoidance, eg head turn from my dog, I ask him to come and step away still with lead loose. Funnily enough, if I say "leave" that will trigger a lunge.

There is a good chance he will snap but it is his own escalation of behaviour following a stare or a growl. Pulling him will make him lunge with more ferocity.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Dogless said:


> But surely insulting people isn't the way to try and get your message across?* Or maybe, like me, he doesn't allow on lead meetings at all* and was taken by surprise. I have been called all sorts for not allowing on lead meetings but I don't and that is my decision - being told off for it by other owners who assume that their dog can meet has happened to me on several occasions. He might have responded rudely to you as Blade's lunge escalated things but by the sounds of it he was polite enough not to.


If he doesn't allow on-lead greetings, he should have left his dog in the car or at his house. What does he think goes on in Pets at Home? Everyone knows it's likely there'll be other dogs in there too.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> If he doesn't allow on-lead greetings, he should have left his dog in the car or at his house. What does he think goes on in Pets at Home? Everyone knows it's likely there'll be other dogs in there too.


I will nip one of mine in to be weighed but still don't want an on lead greeting. I'll sit them and talk to folk but don't want a full on greeting. Surely that's OK?

ETA: And even if not - calling someone an idiot and telling them that they create DA dogs is a wee bit OTT!!


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2014)

Burrowzig said:


> If he doesn't allow on-lead greetings, he should have left his dog in the car or at his house. What does he think goes on in Pets at Home? Everyone knows it's likely there'll be other dogs in there too.


Why would there be on-leash greetings at [email protected]?
I take my dogs to crowded indoor shows where we're packed in like sardines and don't do on-leash greetings, I can easily walk through a pet supply store without my dog greeting any other dog.


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