# Hunt lobbies -Plans to Cull Pine Martens Fiercely Opposed



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Buzzards, Sparrowhawks, Hen Harrier - now the GWCT have set sights on another threatened species! So depressing.

GWCT takes aim at Scottish pine martens | Raptor Persecution Scotland

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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

I've no doubt plenty of pine martens have, to use a euphemism, 'met with accidents' on the grouse moors already. 
Now they want to legalize it ... 

Bad news on two levels, aside from the obvious, painting a species as a vicious, destructive predator creates an undercurrent of ill feeling, which culminates in persecution and a cavalier disregard for their value of life. 

True, pine martens are an aspect of Nature that is red in tooth and claw, 'cute and fluffy' they're not, but they are an integral part of the ecological balance in the Highlands.
It is not they, but man who is out of kilter with Nature.

The whole gory business of game shooting is an abomination. Obscenely overpaid individuals, paying obscene amounts of money, to kill and maim in the name of - I was going to say 'sport' but that would be an insult to genuine sportsmen - sating something 'dark' within their being.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Blimey, that was old news in 2012.................. 

Must be a slow news day


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Odd it's now the hunt lobby that wants it. But heyhoo they get blamed for everything 

Cull pine marten to save capercaillie - The Scotsman

Pine Marten Cull Demand to Save the Capercaillie; under Threat: Endangered Capercaillies and Their Nests Are Targets for Protected Pine Martens, Right - Daily Mail (London) | HighBeam Research

Pine marten predation and Capercaillie in Scotland | The Mammal Society

BBC News - Capercaillie: Scotland's unluckiest bird?

I think you'll find the hunt lobby came up with the idea of relocation not culling


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

rona said:


> Blimey, that was old news in 2012..................
> 
> Must be a slow news day


Reported in The Herald Scotland 30th November 2014....


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

On Chris Packham's Twitter feed too ...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Knightofalbion said:


> Reported in The Herald Scotland 30th November 2014....


Yes as it was in 2008 and 2012..........as I said old news.

The main reasons for the decline is actually climate change and the destruction of the forests, so I think the whole Pine Martin thing is just a desperate attempt to stop completely loosing the Capercaillie


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Its not old news, the story broke 6 days ago, I only found out yesterday. Perhaps this is a just new onslaught - or maybe they've been lobbying since 2008 to 'control' pine marten? Though personally I suspect they began their lobbying well before 2008 - probably the day the species received legal protection from persecution (persecution namely by gamekeepers!)

Wasn't so long ago you were vociferously defending the shoot lobby against claims that they were solely responsible for the practical eradication of another species Rona. That was until the evidence was stacked so high against the grouse moors that even the GWCT had to come out and admit that they were indeed the criminals responsible. Once again you are trusting their word & defending them regarding 'controling' another predator. I know you'd love to have us believe that the shoot lobby are 'natures best friend' lol When in reality they are duplicitous liars that persecute anything that threatens their livelihood. In the capercaillie they have found their excuse to 'control' another predator. ( the same way bTB has been used to get rid of another protected species)

Plans to cull pine martens from woods are fiercely opposed | Herald Scotland

* A leaked plan by the hunting lobby to remove pine martens from *Scottish *woodlands has sparked fierce opposition from wildlife groups which suspect landowners of planning a cull to protect their lucrative grouse stocks. *

The Game & Wildlife Conservation Trust (GWCT), a charity funded by landowners, farmers and sporting interests, wants to launch a trial next year to trap and relocate pine martens, which are protected under law as an endangered species.

But the plan has been condemned as "deeply flawed" by experts who fear it could open the door to the widespread killing of pine martens. It has also been rejected by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB), which owns two of the woodlands where the trial had been proposed.

And this is EXACTLY what has happened with badgers - the 'legal' culls have given rise to huge increase in illegal persecution Illegal snaring of badgers rising, report finds | Environment | The Guardian 

A six-page internal document drawn up by GWCT scientists discloses a plan to get rid of 120 pine martens over six years from four Strathspey forests. It promises to release any females caught in traps "on welfare grounds" if they are suckling young.

*But the plan has been condemned as "deeply flawed" by experts who fear it could open the door to the widespread killing of pine martens. It has also been rejected by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB), which owns two of the woodlands where the trial had been proposed *

*But conservationists suspect *ulterior motives. They point out that landowners and gamekeepers have been increasingly pushing for the right to cull pine martens in order to protect red grouse so they can be shot for sport.

The Mammal *Society, which promotes science- based conservation, has written to the Government's wildlife agency, Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH), expressing "deep concern" about the proposed trial. Evidence in support of it was poor, the society said, and there were no organisations willing to take any relocated martens *

The sooner grouse moors are banned the better!



Knightofalbion said:


> I've no doubt plenty of pine martens have, to use a euphemism, 'met with accidents' on the grouse moors already.
> Now they want to legalize it ...
> 
> Bad news on two levels, aside from the obvious, painting a species as a vicious, destructive predator creates an undercurrent of ill feeling, which culminates in persecution and a cavalier disregard for their value of life.
> ...


Excellent post KOA - you are bang on with it!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

The GWCT have been working in partnership with RSPB and SNH on this issue for many many years

GWCT News & Advisory: Pine Marten study - our letter to The Herald

Pine Marten study - our letter to The Herald

Dear Sir,

The recent article by Rob Edwards (Leaked plan to get rid of pine martens deeply flawed- Sunday 30 November) had a rather fur better than feather feel to it, missing the point of our potential study with its core story of capercaillie decline and the stringent attempt to recover Scottish populations. Indeed the vulnerable, protected capercaillie does not appear in the text until about half way into the article.

Great effort has gone into improving Scottish forest habitat for the horse of the woods, but the decline still continues. The long-term decline seems to be caused by poor breeding success due to cold, damp weather and high numbers of predators. And studies at RSPBs Abernethy Forest have shown pine martens to be a significant nest predator.

No one really knows how significant pine marten are in the overall population decline of capercaillie but we, along with partner organisations SNH, FCS and the CNPA, are proposing a project to find out.

There is no plan to lethally control the pine marten population across Scotland. If the research indicates increasing pine martens are a factor in capercaillie declines, translocation efforts may be focussed only on a small area in Strathspey, helping protect 75% of our remaining capercaillie.
This type of intervention is not new to the conservation world.

The pine marten is not in decline in Scotland, it population is in fact increasing. This is good news for the conservation of that species. As with all of nature, fur is no better or worse than feather, balances must be struck and a multi-agency approach to sensitive wildlife management is what we strive for.

Yours faithfully,
Dr Adam Smith
Director Scotland
GWCT
-

GWCT News & Advisory: Pine Martens and Capercaillie

Is this a cull?
No. There is no plan to lethally control the pine martin population across Scotland. If the research indicates increasing pine martens are a factor in capercaillie declines, efforts may be focussed only on a small area in Strathspey, helping protect 75% of our remaining capercaillie.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Here's the study that first seemed to start the discussions in earnest 
http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/commissioned_reports/415.pdf

They are all working together to try and come up with a workable plan before the Capercaillie disappears forever


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

In this one they actually set up cameras and 11 nest were predated, 9 by Martens 
However a bigger study over more forests found that Crows were the main predator.
That does not detract from the fact that in some key areas the Marten is a risk to the recovery of the Capercaillie

http://jaktivarnes.no/attachments/article/95/caperpine marten.pdf

Some of these studies started in the 1990s


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Forestry Commission - PDF Document - woodlandgrouseRonSummers.pdf

In this one they think human disturbance is one of the main issues alongside predators


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

But still.........don't let the truth get in the way of a good headline


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

And the GWCT wouldn't know the truth if it bit them on the ar$e. The GWCT represent the shooting industry, the industry that finally owned up to being single-handedly responsible for pushing a protected species to the very brink of extinction. In our many debates on the subject you tried to divert attention from those responsible for this most heinous of crimes. And even when the industry finally owned up to it never once have I seen you condemn them :frown2:

http://www.mammal.org.uk/sites/default/files/Pine marten & Capercaillie Position Statement 2013.pdf

The success of the capercaillie population in Scotland is influenced by a suite of interacting factors. Although there is no evidence to suggest that predation by pine martens is an influential factor in the capercaillies decline, The Mammal Society accepts that, in the final stages of that decline, normal levels
of predation by pine martens could become an additional pressure. Given the peripheral nature of its role, and recognising that the pine marten is a scarce, protected mammal still recolonising its former range, The Mammal Society does not accept that the removal of pine martens is justified by the
questionable benefits to capercaillie conservation. Furthermore, a focus on pine marten removal would inevitably deflect attention away from the fundamental causes of the capercaillies decline.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Most of my links aren't GWCT


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Most of my links aren't GWCT


What you are doing is cherry picking data to support the GWCT's call for removal.

Leaked plan to get rid of pine martens ?deeply flawed? - Rob Edwards

*But conservationists suspect ulterior motives. They point out that landowners and gamekeepers have been increasingly pushing for the right to cull pine martens in order to protect red grouse so that they can be shot for sport. *

The Mammal Society, which promotes science-based conservation, has written to the governments wildlife agency, Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH), expressing deep concern about the proposed trial. Evidence in support of it was poor, the society said, and there were no organisations willing to take any relocated martens.

If this trial were to go ahead it is very likely to generate immense negative publicity both for SNH and the Scottish government, not just within the UK but internationally, the society concluded. This will be particularly vociferous if the fate of the removed pine martens is to be culled. It will also greatly damage the reputation of Scotland as a destination for wildlife tourism.

One of the authors of the letter to SNH was the chairman of the Mammal Society and a leading pine marten specialist, Dr Johnny Birks. Instead of pursuing a flawed scheme to remove it, we should be celebrating the martens return to Speyside, he said.

Unlike our Victorian ancestors, thankfully we now understand that predation is a natural component of healthy ecosystems. Pine martens have coexisted in a stable predator-prey balance with capercaillie in forests across northern Europe for thousands of years.

Pine marten predation was a peripheral factor in the capercaillies decline, Birks argued. Predators frequently influence the breeding success of their prey, but this is a natural process and should not be used to justify the removal of one protected species to protect another.

Duncan Orr-Ewing, head of species and land management at RSPB Scotland, dismissed the proposed trial as inappropriate and unnecessary. We have not agreed to this happening onany RSPBScotland nature reserves, he said. We are proud that martens and capercaillie are found in our forests.


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