# Inbreeding - Pomeranians but looking for advice on dogs in general



## Lady3131 (Nov 26, 2009)

Hello all, 

I'm new here and think this is a great forum! I have this question that's been bothering me for ages, forgive me if it seems a bit odd but... 

My partner and I are considering getting a Pomeranian and I have been doing quite a bit of research on the breed and prospective breeders. However, one thing that I have noticed about some of the preferred breeders on my list is that some of their animals have inbreeding in their pedigree. 

It does seem to go quite far back, as in it is not in the immediate 2 generations but more like 3-4 generations ago, however it has made me feel a bit uneasy.

I was just wondering how common is this in the breed and other breeds and should it ring alarm bells? I realise that a lot of the smaller breeds suffer from genetic problems and wondered if I would be putting myself at risk of huge vet bills by going with these breeders. However, I have also noticed that these breeders seem comfortable enough to put these pedigrees up on online so that's what made me wonder if it really was something to worry about or not? 

Many thanks
Mel


----------



## Guest (Nov 26, 2009)

It's called line breeding by the breeders, I personally don't like it any more than you do but in some breeds it is acceptable, particularly if the gene pool is very limited.
I think you would be best to put this question on the breeding section, or pm Crazycrest for advice. She is a very ethical breeder


----------



## Lady3131 (Nov 26, 2009)

Thank you! I have messaged one of the mods to see if I can move this thread before I double post  

It's something that concerns me since my poodle turned out to be epileptic and I know he had some inbreeding in his pedigree...


----------



## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

As a breeder my self I do try and avoid any kind of line breeding. There is alot of it about it goes back generations and generations in many dogs, the same sire can be repeated through both of a puppies bloodlines 4-5 generations ago etc. 

I think as long as it is far back such as 4-5 generations its fine and nothing to worry about, but I do not like it when people mate half brother to half sister etc etc

Inbreeding is the breeding of close relatives not separated by more than one generation, i.e, brother to sister, father to daughter. This method is used to concentrate good qualities in the line but may also concentrate bad qualities. Only the most experienced breeders should be willing to attempt this method and be willing to make possible hard decisions with respect to the resulting puppies. Continual inbreeding should not be done.

Linebreeding is a method that breeders will use to improve upon and try to eliminate structural and health problems from their dogs. It is the breeding together of dogs that have a well bred superior common ancestor who has attributes that the breeder is attempting to reproduce and improve upon in their own dogs. Things such as health, longevity of life, structure, movement and temperament of a dog that one is planning to linebreed on must be taken into account. Linebreeding is an attempt to concentrate the genetic contribution of an outstanding ancestor in the resulting offspring. As well once started one must continue the linebreeding process or all will be for naught.


----------



## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

It really does depend your breed. Irish red and white setters were nearly extinct so when we delve into their ancestry they are all related and all in bred at that point in history. Without inbreeding and line breeding our breed would have died out. Of course nowadays there is no need for it, but we still have a very small gene pool.


----------



## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

With small breeds, especially poms it is common to have some linebreeding. Linebreeding being at "closest" grandparent to grandchild. It's used to preserve certain qualities in a particular line that might be flattening out in more recent generations.

When you out-cross (breed totally unrelated lines) you are looking to bring in certain qualities to your lines. Inbreeding is just plain dangerous.


----------



## Lady3131 (Nov 26, 2009)

Ah! Thank you everyone so much! This has been really helpful and gives me much more information to go on! 

The breeders I have been looking at have been line breeding and it is quite a way back in terms of generations and I now feel comfortable going with them and finding out more about their puppies. 

Just wanted to make sure as they seem like really wonderful breeders but didn't want to ask them in case I offended! 

Thanks again! 

Mel


----------



## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Lady3131 said:


> It's something that concerns me since my poodle turned out to be epileptic and I know he had some inbreeding in his pedigree...


There are plenty of non-linebred dogs in the world, unfortunately, who suffer from epilepsy - crossbreeds and mongrels included. It is, as yet, not testable.

Linebreeding in this instance would only be responsible for your poodle's issues if one of the ancestors that was repeated suffered from it; it _could_ mean more risk of subsequent generations having the problem. But at the moment, specific genes for epilepsy haven't been mapped, there are as yet no tests, and in some cases it isn't hereditary at all.


----------



## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

inbreeding, line breeding or any breeding between relatives has the same effect on dogs as it has on people (and in any mammal for that matter),
the main concerns are the perpetrating of genetic anomalies and the weakening of the immune system.

i guess it is up to you to decide if having a pure breed bred deriving from inbreeding or line breeding (or call it as you like) is worth the risk and the money that will likely be necessary (taking into account that insurance is also higher for pedigrees...)

some people (on here as well) swear by having these dogs is much better than, for example, having a well bred cross breed...

i suppose it boils down to a question of choice as long as the choice is made in a properly informed way. If you want to put your mind at rest just scour a few websites of university dpt (zoology, genetics, medicine for example) and find the details of some Dr active in research in the appropriate subject. ask them for a quick chat...maybe over a pint, it will be greatly informative (and you'll find that after a few attempts) you will find someone available and happy to discuss these issues with you even if a 5-10 minutes chat is the most they can dedicate to you (or anybody for that matters) it will be time well spent.

good luck
d


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

You can always calculate the Coefficient of Inbreeding here for any pedigree:

Inbreeding calculator

You don't need to put all the names in just those that are repeated. I just use a simple string like "ab", "bc", "cd" etc for the repeated dogs. Obviously the ideal is 0%, but they recommend 3% and below to be aimed for and above 6% as problematic. This may not be possible in certain breeds, but the DDB genepool isn't massive and the highest I have is 1.9%. If you just have a couple of names repeated in 4th or 5th gen, you will probably score below 3%. 6.25% is uncle/neice, 12.5% half siblings, 25% full siblings.


----------



## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Lady3131 said:


> Ah! Thank you everyone so much! This has been really helpful and gives me much more information to go on!
> 
> The breeders I have been looking at have been line breeding and it is quite a way back in terms of generations and I now feel comfortable going with them and finding out more about their puppies.
> 
> ...


Any breeder worth their salt would expect a whole host of questions from you so please dont think you'll offend them - they'll be glad you're doing your research


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

I as well would encourage you to ask about the COI of any pup you will be purchasing. Linbebreeding from back a few generations can come in all different forms, depending on how closely related the rest of the dogs in the background of the pedigree are.

This is a pedigree of a dog bred grandfather to granddaughter - a very common type of linebreeding. Looking just at that, the COI would not be that high (6.25%), but when you take into account the rest of the distant dogs in the pedigree, the COI raises to 29.04%.










WebGeneal 4.7.5 (2007.10.30)

The pups from this above litter are therefore more closely related than if they had been from a full brother x sister pairing.

Here are some examples of what that looks like on a pedigree.



















It is up to those that purchase puppies to make sure they are supporting breeders who truly are doing all that they should to ensure their pups are healthy and to ensure their breed remains healthy. Part of that is being careful not to strip the breed of genetic diversity.

CC


----------



## pommum (Jun 16, 2008)

if you want help with looking for the right breeders in the pom world pm me and I will help you out were I can, let me know the breeders maybe and I will advice if they are exhibitors that are still doing well in the ring or whether they are people who have bought in two dogs or more with decent pedigree's and are now breeding them, I know I have had a couple in the past brought to me for stud and I have looked at their pedigree's and yes some of the dogs in there are of quality but these were way back in the generations.

I'm always happy to help and guide any one looking to get a pom pup.

Take care

Sarah


----------



## Small~Fluffy (Mar 13, 2009)

*You could also Join a Pomeranian forum.
Quite a few Pom people all in one place who could help & advice.

You will not offend most reputable Breeders.

Can we be nosey & ask who you have been intouch with as it helps to know what type your looking at etc.*


----------



## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> You can always calculate the Coefficient of Inbreeding here for any pedigree:
> 
> Inbreeding calculator
> 
> You don't need to put all the names in just those that are repeated. I just use a simple string like "ab", "bc", "cd" etc for the repeated dogs. Obviously the ideal is 0%, but they recommend 3% and below to be aimed for and above 6% as problematic. This may not be possible in certain breeds, but the DDB genepool isn't massive and the highest I have is 1.9%. If you just have a couple of names repeated in 4th or 5th gen, you will probably score below 3%. 6.25% is uncle/neice, 12.5% half siblings, 25% full siblings.


So would this Coefficient , Seen bellow ,for a litter be Good or Bad ??

Inbreeding: 0.07421875 (7.421875%)
AVK (ancestor loss coefficient): 87.096774193548%
The computation has been done for 5 generations

Just did an example calculation to see what came out


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> So would this Coefficient , Seen bellow ,for a litter be Good or Bad ??
> 
> Inbreeding: 0.07421875 (7.421875%)
> AVK (ancestor loss coefficient): 87.096774193548%
> ...


I love that COI calculator, and I hope Lilacbabe doesn't mind if I take a stab at a bit of an answer.

John Armstrong and those involved in educating about genetic diversity recommend keeping COIs at 6.5 or lower for best health expectations in a litter, but also recognize there are rarer breeds where this is extremely difficult. They also encourage those that breed to put the effort into (for the sake of the breed) creating lower COIs in each litter, than the COI of the parents when averaged.

7.42% in 5 gens therefore, to me, looks O.K., especially as the AVK looks good. I think we all need to set our own informed level of tolerance, realizing that there is a lot more that goes into the consideration - the first being the knowledge that the breeder has of the health of those dogs in the background of that pedigree. I think it is important to know if the breeder is one of which concerns themselves with trying to find out about the health of the ancestors (not just their titles). . . and you learn that by asking pointed questions which might indicate if they are or are not. Internet breeder lists are certainly helpful in getting to know which breeders are knowledgeable.

In Pomeranians aren't slipping knees currently the most common health issue? The breeder should be offering this type of information, as well as telling what she knows of it in the pups ancestry.

IF the breeder is knowledgeable and up front about breed health problems and the ancestors health, and is actually aware of COI and making a conscientious effort to keep it low, that would be a breeder I'd consider getting a pup from.

Just as a heads up regards to COI (as much as it is a measure that should be considered) I know of a litter that has a COI of 0 at 5 generations, but from the 5th to the 11th has the same risky for SM ancestor in it 32 times (and behind all four grandparents). This was an 'A' grade x 'A' grade Cavalier breeding that produced SM in the pups. That is why it is not only COI that needs to be considered. The health knowledge the breeder keeps is incredibly important - and of course that also means trusting breeders have been honest with each other.

CC


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> So would this Coefficient , Seen bellow ,for a litter be Good or Bad ??
> 
> Inbreeding: 0.07421875 (7.421875%)
> AVK (ancestor loss coefficient): 87.096774193548%
> ...


As previously mentioned the AVK is good, but the COI would disuade me personally in my breed. I don't see any virtue in breeding so close tbh.


----------



## Lady3131 (Nov 26, 2009)

Wow! I am amazed at the amount of information you've been able to give me!

Feel a bit overwhelmed now! lol :thumbup1:


----------



## lilacbabe (Jun 4, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> I love that COI calculator, and I hope Lilacbabe doesn't mind if I take a stab at a bit of an answer.
> 
> John Armstrong and those involved in educating about genetic diversity recommend keeping COIs at 6.5 or lower for best health expectations in a litter, but also recognize there are rarer breeds where this is extremely difficult. They also encourage those that breed to put the effort into (for the sake of the breed) creating lower COIs in each litter, than the COI of the parents when averaged.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply it is very interesting.

The example was taken using my own dog an Airedale and her partner LOL !!!
Their health history is good going back through both dogs generations , Airedales do not have many health issues mainly hips and just recently I have discovered factor VII has been added to the health test's for Airedales. 
Some may say find a stud that is not related in any way but It is quite hard to find a stud that has not got some sort of conection through the generations in my breed . Also outcrossing also has its risks and the same research has to be done . Unrelated dogs can have history of bad health issues on one or both sides and you could get double the trouble so to speak.

It is as you say not just the coefficient that has to be taken in to consideration but health, temprament, conformation.

I have tried to explain all this to customers who want to breed from their pets ,that it is not just a case of putting 2 dogs together to breed and that they really have to do a good bit of research in to the 2 dogs breed lines ,health etc.:mad2:

This is also true when buying a pup and lots of questions need to be asked or they might end up having problems. Even so called good breeders need to be asked questions and just because they advertise on so called breeders forums does not mean that you will get a good healthy pup.

One of my friend's bought a dog after seeing a so called reputable breeder from one of these forums pups for sale sites and the pup did not turn out well at all. It is a Rough collie but it looks more like it has been crossed with a sheltie and she has been in touch with others who had pups from this breeder and sadly a couple of them have had to be put to sleep due to health problems.

A good breeder should not be afraid to answer any questions asked by any potential owners. In fact they should be pleased that the buyers are taking such an interest.

You really do need to have a wee bit of knowledge about breeding before buying a pup and sadly not everyone has this knowledge and that is why the bad breeders and puppy farms still carry on breeding and manage to sell the litters they produce.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

lilacbabe said:


> It is as you say not just the coefficient that has to be taken in to consideration but health, temprament, conformation.
> 
> I have tried to explain all this to customers who want to breed from their pets ,that it is not just a case of putting 2 dogs together to breed and that they really have to do a good bit of research in to the 2 dogs breed lines ,health etc.:mad2:


I really think that this is an important message to get across. In many breeds I know there is a problem, however, with breeder to breeder honesty, and breeder to pet purchaser honesty. That doesn't help at all when researching. The breeder who put that litter with SM together was going on the advice of an experienced mentor, and, unfortunately, I am of the impression that neither knew of the risk in that one ancestor. I believe that we need a system that supports open health registries.



lilacbabe said:


> A good breeder should not be afraid to answer any questions asked by any potential owners. In fact they should be pleased that the buyers are taking such an interest.
> 
> You really do need to have a wee bit of knowledge about breeding before buying a pup and sadly not everyone has this knowledge and that is why the bad breeders and puppy farms still carry on breeding and manage to sell the litters they produce.


Unfortunately this is too true. If the message can get out, though, that GOOD breeders won't hesitate to answer questions, I believe the dog loving community will be further ahead. Maybe there should be more places outlining what type of questions consumers should be asking as it has got to be intimidating for someone that has no experience with dogs to even approach many breeders.

CC


----------



## JStone (Jun 4, 2011)

There are many Pomeranian Dog Breeders out there, but not all are breeding the correct type. If you go to a show kennel, which you really should, you will have a better chance of getting a puppy correct to the breed.

A good Pomeranian Dog Breeder, will only be breeding from the best stock as they will be looking to breed only the best puppies possible. There are many breeders that are only breeding for profit, with little or no care, taken to the type of puppies that they are breeding.

Good kennels will only breed from the correct size dogs 4-4.5lb for a dog, 5-5.5lb for a bitch. This will ensure correct size puppies which will in-turn make for a more uniform size litter.

Correct size Pomeranian dogs are not easy to breed, and can have many whelping troubles caused mainly by having larger dogs in their history.

A normal size bitch will have a litter of two or three, but the bigger bitches will have a bigger, much more mixed litter, and even if there is a small pup in the litter, it may well grow on to be much bigger then you wanted.

Pomeranian show kennels will not have lots of litters but will be looking to breed the best puppies they can, as each litter could have their next champion.

Many good kennels have websites, where you will be able to see there show dogs, puppies etc. If in doubt about the kennel or puppies then buyer beware, its far better to wait for the right dog.

The Kennel Club have a breeder scheme, of which I am a member, but there is no guarantee that they are breeding to type only and that certain things have been done, like micro chipping, vaccinations, heath checks etc.

My Top 5 Tips For Choosing A Good Pomeranian Dog Breeder Are:-

1. Select From Championship Show Winning Kennels.
2. They Specialise In Only Breeding Pomeranians Or Other Toy Dogs.
3. Ensure They Are A "Kennel Club" Accredited Breeder.
4. Have A Website, To View Type Of Pomeranians Being Bred, & To View Pedigree.
5. They're Willing To Take The Time To Make Sure The Breed Is Right For You.

Altina Toy Dogs Pomeranian Breeder For Over 20 Years


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

this thread is 18 months old, hopefully the OP did their research and found what they wanted.


----------

