# Dodge just tried to bite me



## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

We have had Dodge since September last year, we were aware of his dog aggression, and working slowly to improve that and it had been working.....

BUT I just went to give him his dinner, I always make him sit and paw, and he just went nuts and tried to bite my face - luckily I pushed him away and he only caught my face with his claws, what am I doing wrong why is he getting worse! I really wanted a dog an now I am worried I am just making him worse!!

HELP ME PLEASE!!!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Samy said:


> We have had Dodge since September last year, we were aware of his dog aggression, and working slowly to improve that and it had been working.....
> 
> BUT I just went to give him his dinner, I always make him sit and paw, and he just went nuts and tried to bite my face - luckily I pushed him away and he only caught my face with his claws, what am I doing wrong why is he getting worse! I really wanted a dog an now I am worried I am just making him worse!!
> 
> HELP ME PLEASE!!!


Anything out the ordinary happened today, bad experiences when out, thunder storms that may have freaked him, visitors coming, hyper excitement,anything at all that is out of the ordinary to his normal every day routine? If a dogs stressed out for whatever reason that can make them reactive and even re-direct aggression onto other things that may not be the problem or have been the problem in the first place.

If there is nothing happened, then has he had a vet check in awhile. Dogs that have discomfort and pain or feeling unwell can become reactive, so a vet check may be best first port of call to rule out any medial reasons. Endocrine disorders like hypo thyroid can cause aggression in dogs even and its not something thats uncommon by far.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Samy said:


> We've had Dodge since September [2011], we were aware of his dog aggro, & working slowly
> to improve that --- it [was getting better].


what *specifically* happened before he 'went nuts'? 
Where was he, where were U in relation to the dog, where was the food, & so on?

IOW, were U standing beside him with the bowl in Ur hand, bent OVER him with the bowl in hand, 
bending with the bowl already on the floor... what?

- how old was he when U got him?

- how many homes has he had?

- do U know anything about his history? - 
how LONG has he been dog-reactive or dog-aggro, 
are there specific triggers [circs, settings, dog-types that set him off, etc]?

- is he intact or neutered? 
[if intact, i'd snip him ASAP; testosterone does increase aggro.]

- what have U been doing to "reduce his dog-aggro"? 
what tools, methods, etc, were used?

- how much dog-experience have U, & specifically, how much experience with dogs 
who have long-term problem behaviors? Have U volunteered at a shelter with help in learning 
how best to manage or handle dog-reactive dogs, & so on? Experience does matter, in this instance. 
good intentions are wonderful, but they are no substitute for skill & practice. 

have U worked with an experienced trainer, using reward-based methods? [if not, why not?]


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Anything out the ordinary happened today, bad experiences when out, thunder storms that may have freaked him, visitors coming, hyper excitement,anything at all that is out of the ordinary to his normal every day routine? If a dogs stressed out for whatever reason that can make them reactive and even re-direct aggression onto other things that may not be the problem or have been the problem in the first place.
> 
> If there is nothing happened, then has he had a vet check in awhile. Dogs that have discomfort and pain or feeling unwell can become reactive, so a vet check may be best first port of call to rule out any medial reasons. Endocrine disorders like hypo thyroid can cause aggression in dogs even and its not something thats uncommon by far.


No change to normal weekend routine so only that the extra day has been added to the weekend!

Vet check about 6 weeks, he was panting for no reason so the vet gave him a once over and it was ll fine, he asked me to get previous medical records which i did, nothing in there, the panting stopped so i didnt see the need to go back, but maybe the full blood check is worth it just to be 100% sure (would Endocrine disorders be checked in with the blood test?)


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Samy said:


> No change to normal weekend routine so only that the extra day has been added to the weekend!
> 
> Vet check about 6 weeks, he was panting for no reason so the vet gave him a once over and it was ll fine, he asked me to get previous medical records which i did, nothing in there, the panting stopped so i didnt see the need to go back, but maybe the full blood check is worth it just to be 100% sure (would Endocrine disorders be checked in with the blood test?)


THyroid that can cause aggression and behaviour problems is a specific test.
Are your dogs seizures caused by Canine Epilepsy or Autoimmune Thyroiditis?
The above link is quite interesting as regards it being linked to behaviours.
Its from a epilepsy/seizure website but as you can see from the study not only was there a link to seizures but aggressive behaviour problems too.


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> what *specifically* happened before he 'went nuts'?
> Where was he, where were U in relation to the dog, where was the food, & so on?
> 
> I took the food from the kitchen side, turned around asked him to sit, put the food on the floor stood infront of it, asked him for one paw, then another he growled and jumped up to my face mouth open, i pushed out my arms and kinda pushed him back - the OH came in and that point to took Dodge out to the garden
> ...


I spoke to the trainer that works with the vets we use, she said that she could come and asses him but because out paperwork said that Dodges brother and father had also developed aggression that she wasnt confident there was much that could be done, I wasn't sure what to do and then Dodge seemed to be doing so much better that I guess honestly i didn't think he needed it, also the other half wasn't keen from the start, maybe after this "incident" will give us more reason to do it

I just hope that I am not doing more damage than good, its one step forward then 5 back anytime we get anywhere, He is such a lovely,loving, clever dog I just want him to have the best and best chance....I cant give up on him but also i dont want to get bitten in the face


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## canine (Feb 23, 2012)

I would def look at what has happened the last couple of days. On Tues I left my wee yorkie outside my local shop in his stroller. I was only buying a loaf and rushed to the till (he was parked within sight of the till). While I was chatting to the shop worker I noticed someone who I had saw earlier on the way to the shop looking around the stroller that he was in (he has a collapsing trachea that causes tiredness/possible heart condition). This fella kept touching and looking under/around and over the stroller and in the meantime little Dino was going nuts. I was about to go out and tell him to back off when he left. 

Since that has happened my poor wee dog has not been himself. He was aggressive when I tried to remove him from my bed to put him into his own downstairs. My hubby was in bed at the time. He yaps at the drop of a hat and keeps imaging someone is at the door. Quite frankly he is driving me nuts but I know it started after that guy upset him. He also has a previous history of being abused. I just have to ignore his inappropriate behaviour and praise his good behaviour. Keep persevering and remember not to put your face too close and don't leave him with any vulnerable people or any pets while you are not there. Also remember not to put yourself at risk, a quick get away is a must. An umbrella that opens at the push of a button is a good distraction in case of attack. I think you are doing a wonderful job and remember that the dog will have occasional flashbacks, just like humans. Good luck.


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

canine said:


> I would def look at what has happened the last couple of days. On Tues I left my wee yorkie outside my local shop in his stroller. I was only buying a loaf and rushed to the till (he was parked within sight of the till). While I was chatting to the shop worker I noticed someone who I had saw earlier on the way to the shop looking around the stroller that he was in (he has a collapsing trachea that causes tiredness/possible heart condition). This fella kept touching and looking under/around and over the stroller and in the meantime little Dino was going nuts. I was about to go out and tell him to back off when he left.
> 
> Since that has happened my poor wee dog has not been himself. He was aggressive when I tried to remove him from my bed to put him into his own downstairs. My hubby was in bed at the time. He yaps at the drop of a hat and keeps imaging someone is at the door. Quite frankly he is driving me nuts but I know it started after that guy upset him. He also has a previous history of being abused. I just have to ignore his inappropriate behaviour and praise his good behaviour. Keep persevering and remember not to put your face too close and don't leave him with any vulnerable people or any pets while you are not there. Also remember not to put yourself at risk, a quick get away is a must. An umbrella that opens at the push of a button is a good distraction in case of attack. I think you are doing a wonderful job and remember that the dog will have occasional flashbacks, just like humans.* Good luck and remember he is only like that because the previous owner didn't give him a chance.*


Thank you - I truly hope so.

Now that I think back i guess there were a few small changes this weekend, we had the OH daughter we have her once a month and we took a day trip on Saturday so I took him to my mums (he has been licking and biting my plaster walls recently so I like to try and give him company where possible) she walked him without me on her own which she hasnt done before I have always been there or her other half, but nothing happened it was just a walk, then my other half and his daughter walked him on Sunday, so i actually haven't walked him since Friday thats a little strange, but not a "bad experience". I am raking my brains trying to think what was different did i stand in a different place to feed him... i wish i could record myself see what i did wrong - hopefully i will get some good feedback from you guys and i will call the trainer to see what she says, dont you just wish they spoke so we could sit down and ask them :blushing:


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## Guest (May 7, 2012)

Samy, can you elaborate on what you mean by a pin down situation.
Also, you have him sit and paw - how did you teach this, and have you checked that paw? Is it injured in any way?

I second vet check, and behavioralist. A credentialed experienced behavioralist. This is not something you try to solve online.


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## canine (Feb 23, 2012)

Samy said:


> Every time I catch them looking at me! lol
> 
> Forgot to ask if the dog is left alone during the day? Sometimes there may be things happening during the day that we are not aware of. Noisey neighbours or work happening in the local area, that may upset the dog. I agree that you may need a dog behaviourist. I also agree that you may not get the answer in a chat room, however it's the best place to come if you want to think of the right questions to ask yourself and the therapist.


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## canine (Feb 23, 2012)

Try and remember how you lent over. If you were too close to the dog when you bent then you may have given him the impression that you were about to 'swoop' in on him. Wild dogs are instinctively on guard for attack and domesticated dogs have that inert instinct. The same way that we jump if someone makes a sudden move even if we have never been attacked.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

I wonder if Canine has something there. Dogs do find people bending over them intimidating. If your dog was in a fight recently and was scared you may have your trigger. Your face above the dog and getting closer may have prompted an "I'm scared, go away!" snap.

I'd just ask for a "sit" before eating and be very careful that no-one "looms" over the dog until you can get a good behaviourist. The one through your vet sounds like they are no help at all. Even if EVERY dog's relative is aggressive an individual dog can still be helped and the problem managed.

Good luck.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I agree with the post above. Forget about the give paw for now, a sit-wait at a distance where you won't be bending over him when you put the bowl down would be much safer, then you can call him over to eat when you stand up.


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

I am finding it difficult to find a good trainer/behaviourlist, I was going to go to the closest rescue centre to me (1 hour drive each way), I emailed them and they were able to help and the day I called to book him in they advised they were no longer doing this unless they dog was adopted via them (which he wasnt), i have email other people who have never got back to me, and one woman than i did get hold of wanted to charge me £200 to come an look at him to see if she could help... i just cant afford that for a once over....

I know it sounds silly but i am really struggling to find someone qualified to help us out :mad2:

I thought the one linked to the vet would be good, but now not so sure...


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Samy, can you elaborate on what you mean by a pin down situation.
> Also, you have him sit and paw - how did you teach this, and have you checked that paw? Is it injured in any way?
> 
> I second vet check, and behavioralist. A credentialed experienced behavioralist. This is not something you try to solve online.


Pin down, a dog came running up to him, he dropped his frisbee and they fought but it wasnt a big biting fight he simply pinned the dog to the floor, does that make sense?

We taught paw when we got him with treats, I would have a treat and ask for paw an to start with i tapped it and he gave it to me, now i hold out my hand and he gives me his paw, he gives me which ever paw i ask for so if i hold out my right hand he gives me the paw (his left) etc
i habnt seen him in any discomfort or licking his paw so had no reason to check, but i will do later with the other half as i wont do it alone now


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

canine said:


> Every time I catch them looking at me! lol
> 
> Forgot to ask if the dog is left alone during the day? Sometimes there may be things happening during the day that we are not aware of. Noisey neighbours or work happening in the local area, that may upset the dog. I agree that you may need a dog behaviourist. I also agree that you may not get the answer in a chat room, however it's the best place to come if you want to think of the right questions to ask yourself and the therapist.


Yes I leave for work as close to 9 as i can, I only work up the road, i then come home at lunch time, between 12.30-1 and spend as close to an hour with him, we go out for a walk every lunch time, and then the OH is home around 4.30-5 and he goes out for a walk with him, I have recetly bought him, a kong and been leaving that with him as he had taken to destroying my plaster walls, its a new house and we live on the site where they are currently building lots of houses so its always noisey during the day, my neighbour is home all day and hasnt mentioned anything srange but i guess it could be something very simple.


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

OK so no paw and make him sit while i place the food down, then tell him he can have it as i leave the room, my OH is a little worried and wants to take over feeding him, I have always done it before, do you think this is a good idea or should we keep it the same or maybe take it in turns from now on??

I have taken a half day off work so that I can make calls to any local behaviouslists and see what they say, want to do, any tips on this or anyone in Wiltshire have an recommendations greatly apprecaited. (I cant make/take calls at work only send emails out to people),


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

If the father and a sibling has developed aggression, then I think its possibly worth doing a Thyroid profile. There are two versions of hypo thyroid, Idiopathic and auto-immune. The auto immune version is genetic, it can make an appearancce before three years old. One of mine has the auto immune version she started having seizures at just before 2 years old, none of the otherwise classic symptoms that vets usually picl up on like weight gain and exercise intolerance. Thats the problem with Hypo thyroid it can manefest itsellf in so many ways. Its not uncommon and dogs can be fearful, and aggressive as you probably saw by the figures in the link I gave, there is a very high percentage in dogs having hypo thyroid being aggressive and fearful. As well as my dog having it three (including her) out of the 4 pups that live (one died) has got serious hypo thyroid and the 4th was being tested too as suspect although I havent heard the results.

You would need to get a Free T4, Total T4, TSH and a TGAA minimum done.
Some dogs come back low normal, on the T4 and a lot of vets take that as normal in fact some only run an inhouse T4. You need the whole profile to see how its working. A young dog should not have a low normal T4. Some can be sub clinical ie not show any of the usual clinical signs, like the weight gain, exercise intolerance etc. The TGAA is also important to do, because the thyro globulin auto anti bodies are sometimes present (Meaning they have the auto immune version) but the T4 and other readings are not critically low as yet, but if the TGAA is present then its on its way and the other readings will sink lower and lower until critical levels. Many vets dont treat until critical and off the reference range completely not just low normal and by then more and more symptoms and associated problems can manefest until the dog becomes really ill.


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> If the father and a sibling has developed aggression, then I think its possibly worth doing a Thyroid profile. There are two versions of hypo thyroid, Idiopathic and auto-immune. The auto immune version is genetic, it can make an appearancce before three years old. One of mine has the auto immune version she started having seizures at just before 2 years old, none of the otherwise classic symptoms that vets usually picl up on like *weight gain* and *exercise intolerance*. Thats the problem with Hypo thyroid it can manefest itsellf in so many ways. Its not uncommon and dogs can be fearful, and aggressive as you probably saw by the figures in the link I gave, there is a very high percentage in dogs having hypo thyroid being aggressive and fearful. As well as my dog having it three (including her) out of the 4 pups that live (one died) has got serious hypo thyroid and the 4th was being tested too as suspect although I havent heard the results.


He did get a little porky but i thought we were just treating him to much so i took away the treats, he also gets out of breath really easily these days... OK off to call the vets now and see what they say, i wonder if they will do the test just on my say so or not??


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Samy said:


> He did get a little porky but i thought we were just treating him to much so i took away the treats, he also gets out of breath really easily these days... OK off to call the vets now and see what they say, i wonder if they will do the test just on my say so or not??


Vets will do any test you want so long as you are paying for it! Good luck at the vets. If you do decide on a behaviourist, try to get someone from

The APBC | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

You have to be so careful when finding someone like this, as anyone is entitled to call themselves a dog behaviourist, unfortunately, and most don't know one end of a dog from the other.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

You need a reputable qualified behaviourist.

This is the best organisation to contact for this.

They will only see a dog via a vet referral, Robin, Karen and Peter are all in Wiltshire.

CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Samy said:


> He did get a little porky but i thought we were just treating him to much so i took away the treats, he also gets out of breath really easily these days... OK off to call the vets now and see what they say, i wonder if they will do the test just on my say so or not??


Tell them you want it done, I got the I really dont think Blah Blah Blah but of course if you want it done Mrs.......... and I was right so dig your heels in and say you want it done. They do pant as well as they cant regulate body temperature. See this list for all the clinical signs. But as said the only real clue I got was the seizures and knowing the Auto immune hypo thyroid is a problems in both the breeds shes a mix of.

Canine Autoimmune Thyroid Disease can cause seizures in dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i hardly ever disagree with S-D-H, i think this is historic...  but i'd want at least a 5-way profile.


Sled dog hotel said:


> You would need to get a Free T4, Total T4, TSH and a TGAA minimum done.
> Some dogs come back low-normal... a lot of vets take that as normal; in fact, some only run
> an in-house T4. *You need the whole profile to see how [the thyroid gland] is working.*


the reason for 4 tests [free *AND* bound versions of T3 *&* T4] is that one of each 
is the 'floor', while the other form is the 'ceiling' - we need the measurement between the 2.

the 5th test is TSH: *t*hyroid *s*timulating *h*ormone - 
& a possible 6th test is antibody-testing, to find any auto-immune problem where anti-nuclear 
antibodies [produced by the dog] are attached to cells in the bloodstream.

i'd also strongly advocate sending the test away for analysis - 
the Michigan State Univ vet-labs have the world's largest database of k9 thyroid values, all sorted 
by breed - so the sample is compared not with some generic 'dog value', but Sibes to Sibes' normal, 
Doxies to Doxies' normal, etc. If the dog is a mix, they use the predominant breeds to compare.

having the vet do an in-house analysis IMO negates the whole purpose - s/he cannot possibly provide 
the same accuracy or the comparison tables, so U're spending $$ for naught. 

*if the results are borderline-low,* i'd be prepared to talk to my vet about a short course 
of low-dose thyroid supplements - *if behavior improves*, that's the telltale. :thumbsup: 
approx 3-weeks should see clear results; either Yes, definite improvement, or No, no change. 
:wink5:

dogs who need thyroid-supps need it for life - but luckily, once the dosage is determined, it's cheap. 
Good luck at the vet's... let us know what develops, please?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i hardly ever disagree with S-D-H, i think this is historic...  but i'd want at least a 5-way profile.
> 
> the reason for 4 tests [free *AND* bound versions of T3 *&* T4] is that one of each
> is the 'floor', while the other form is the 'ceiling' - we need the measurement between the 2.
> ...


Oh Terry if you only knew, we are so backwards here when it comes to Thyroid. I fully agree with you preferably I would say the T3 in entirety too in addition to what I previously said.

Some vets only run a T4 thats all they do and make a diagnosis from that.

Best of all is for humans on the NHS testing. When you are sent for a thyroid test they only do the TSH, if that looks suspect they condescend to do a T4.
If you are diagnosed they give you levo thyroxine T4, and here is the best bit once you have been on therapy for awhile and have your monitoring tests once the TSH is back down then they dont bother to do the T4, even though you are on Levo thyroxine T4 therapyut::cursing: So work that one out!!

I got diagnosed before christmas and have just got a refferal because I still feel like like a corpse most of the time. Probably due to the woofers getting better tests and monitoring then I do.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I got diagnosed before Xmas &... just got a referral, because I still feel like like a corpse most of the time.
> Probably due to the woofers getting better tests & monitoring then I do.


aww, hun - i'm so sorry.  very gentle {{ hugs }}


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> aww, hun - i'm so sorry.  very gentle {{ hugs }}


Thank you, I can now appreciate how the poor dogs feel and what effects it has on them. Anyone who says a low normal reading is OK, seriously ought to try it they would rapidily change there mind I can assure you. Worrying thing is its more and nore common in our dogs and Humans.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> ...I can now appreciate how the poor dogs feel & what effects it has...
> Anyone who says a low-normal reading is OK, seriously ought to try it - they'd rapidily change their mind,
> I can assure you.
> 
> Worrying thing is, it's more & more common in our dogs & Humans.


true on all counts. :nonod:


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

(Sled dog hotel-Get your antibodies tested. I have autoimmune hypothyrodism and it goes up and down like a yo-yo.)

Definitely get Dodge tested as it really impacts on how you feel as a person, so if he does have it that would explain a lot.


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## doglover07 (May 9, 2012)

Well do you take him for walks? Maybe he lacks exercise?

Try reading articles on this site  Achieve a well balanced dog in no time! - Home, i learned alot from this one. Hope it helps!


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

Apart from the fact that the lady i spoke to first of all was al ittle concernced she couldnt help due to the father and brother also having the issue, I think she has now left as the latest lady that I have spoken with didnt sound the same, this is the web address for them, for me its ideal as they are at the end of the road they are linked to the vets and i have already discussed Dodge and payment options (because its my vets they are a little more forgiven, so the credit card wont take too much of a beating)

Counselling

She is female so Dodge will be more comfotable with her, they are local - the only thing i cant find is qualifications... what do you guys think, if you disagree then i will see if the lady in Bristol will take us on as the local Swindon one is a man


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

As a behaviourist will normally ask for a vet referral, and vets can only refer to behaviourists which have prescribed qualifications, there should be no issue with Donna.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Samy said:


> Apart from the fact that the lady i spoke to first of all was al ittle concernced she couldnt help due to the father and brother also having the issue, I think she has now left as the latest lady that I have spoken with didnt sound the same, this is the web address for them, for me its ideal as they are at the end of the road they are linked to the vets and i have already discussed Dodge and payment options (because its my vets they are a little more forgiven, so the credit card wont take too much of a beating)
> 
> Counselling
> 
> She is female so Dodge will be more comfotable with her, they are local - the only thing i cant find is qualifications... what do you guys think, if you disagree then i will see if the lady in Bristol will take us on as the local Swindon one is a man


She reads ok. At least she recognises that dogs are not wolves; that's a start!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Jobeth said:


> (Sled dog hotel-Get your antibodies tested. I have autoimmune hypothyrodism and it goes up and down like a yo-yo.)
> 
> Definitely get Dodge tested as it really impacts on how you feel as a person, so if he does have it that would explain a lot.


Thanks for the Imput Jobeth. Im hoping I will get the antibodies tested as well as the whole profile now Im being reffered as you can see up to now the NHS, local AHA does very little in the way of testing. Ive got 2 dogs at the moment with Hypo thyroid, one with idiopathic and the other with Auto-immune. I know what they have because unlike me I have the whole lot done for them. Ive noticed with Nanuq her auto antibodies go up and down.

I have a friend with auto immune and she cant take the T4 it doesnt work she has to have T3 as theraphy.

Apologies OP for side tracking your thread a bit.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Samy said:


> Apart from the fact that the lady i spoke to first of all was al ittle concernced she couldnt help due to the father and brother also having the issue, I think she has now left as the latest lady that I have spoken with didnt sound the same, this is the web address for them, for me its ideal as they are at the end of the road they are linked to the vets and i have already discussed Dodge and payment options (because its my vets they are a little more forgiven, so the credit card wont take too much of a beating)
> 
> Counselling
> 
> She is female so Dodge will be more comfotable with her, they are local - the only thing i cant find is qualifications... what do you guys think, if you disagree then i will see if the lady in Bristol will take us on as the local Swindon one is a man


As an RCVS acredited practice tbh I cant see them employing or associating with any one whos Mickey Mouse. I found my Behavioursit originally via the vets an she had more qualifications then you could poke a stick at I should think you are completely safe. From the example video they are doing all the right things.


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you all, hopefully your not upset with the order I have done things in, I have booked Donna for the 19th of this month to come and spend some time with us, I want to make sure we are not causing the issue, after her assesment and my next pay cheque  I am going to book him in for a thyroid/full blood work, Donna did say that the vets in UK are not nearly as advanced in checking things as in the states, but hopefully the vet will be able to check the correct things, I will come back a re read this thread before I take Dodge and see what the vets says when I am in there, hopefully as long as I have my flexible friend with me they will just do what i want!! he he

One thing is that Donna has asked me to film Dodges funny moods with us, the only thing I can think of is getting out my mobile and filming it unless any of you have any wonderful ideas for me??
(I need to show her his body language so that she can asses this also)


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> i hardly ever disagree with S-D-H, i think this is historic...  but i'd want at least a 5-way profile.
> 
> the reason for 4 tests [free *AND* bound versions of T3 *&* T4] is that one of each
> is the 'floor', while the other form is the 'ceiling' - we need the measurement between the 2.
> ...


As I am in the UK I am not sure if we have this same option to send it out side, but Iw ill certainly print this out and take it along with me when we go for the bloods (hopefully next month, following on from the behaviour assessment), I will ofcourse keep you all up to date with his assement results and vet checks 
Now off to see what quotes i get for insurance, as thats also been on the "To Do List" for a little while, lets hope his agression doesnt cause me many issues here!! hmy:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Samy said:


> Thank you all, hopefully your not upset with the order I have done things in, I have booked Donna for the 19th of this month to come and spend some time with us, I want to make sure we are not causing the issue, after her assesment and my next pay cheque  I am going to book him in for a thyroid/full blood work, Donna did say that the vets in UK are not nearly as advanced in checking things as in the states, but hopefully the vet will be able to check the correct things, I will come back a re read this thread before I take Dodge and see what the vets says when I am in there, hopefully as long as I have my flexible friend with me they will just do what i want!! he he
> 
> One thing is that Donna has asked me to film Dodges funny moods with us, the only thing I can think of is getting out my mobile and filming it unless any of you have any wonderful ideas for me??
> (I need to show her his body language so that she can asses this also)


As far as I can see you are doing all you can both to ensure there is no medical reasons for his behaviour and then get help to assess him and put behaviour modifcation in place, no one can do more then that!!

I Knew of a Siberian in rescue who was really aggressive admittedly really DA not really human so much but once diagnosed he was totally different and a pussycat. We also had a member cant remember who now who had an Akita who totally out of character attacked her and he turned out to be hypo thyroid and was fine on theraphy. If he is insured you will be covered. My old girl isnt insured but Nanuq the younger with the auto immune thyroid is and they have been brilliant with her testing and treatment. Behavioursits usually want a vet check done first anyhow to rule out medical reasons. Of course until you have the tests done no-one an say for sure, but it has been known so I dont think its a waste of time as I think you said he had a couple of possible physical signs too. Cant rememer if I linked you to the clinical signs?
In case I didnt here it is. I think I linked you to the Study of aggression/fear and the Behaviour linked to thyroid.

Canine Autoimmune Thyroid Disease can cause seizures in dogs.

While im att it Ive done the other links too as it may be easier to have it on one post. Ignore the seizure/epilepsy its not just that.

Are your dogs seizures caused by Canine Epilepsy or Autoimmune Thyroiditis?

Behavioral changes associated with thyroid dysfunction in dogs.

Are your dogs seizures caused by Canine Epilepsy or Autoimmune Thyroiditis?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Samy said:


> As I am in the UK I am not sure if we have this same option to send it out side, but Iw ill certainly print this out and take it along with me when we go for the bloods (hopefully next month, following on from the behaviour assessment), I will ofcourse keep you all up to date with his assement results and vet checks
> Now off to see what quotes i get for insurance, as thats also been on the "To Do List" for a little while, lets hope his agression doesnt cause me many issues here!! hmy:


There are two main labs in the UK Idexx and Cambridge specialist Laboratory services. Mine go to Cambridge.
Cambridge do a Platinum Canine Thyroid Profile which is T4,TSH,FT4ED,TGAA the one that I first mentioned as mimiumum I had done.
In addition to this you can have a T3 done as well as an extra individual test.Im not sure exatly what Idexx offer a not used them, they do Thyroid tests but bot sure exactly what their profiles are, I should imagine it probably is the same.

One thing I just noticed if he isnt insured and everything is lodged on his notes prior to insurance you are not going to be covered.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Samy said:


> As I am in the UK I am not sure if we have this same option to send it out side, but Iw ill certainly print this out and take it along with me when we go for the bloods (hopefully next month, following on from the behaviour assessment), I will ofcourse keep you all up to date with his assement results and vet checks
> Now off to see what quotes i get for insurance, as thats also been on the "To Do List" for a little while, lets hope his agression doesnt cause me many issues here!! hmy:


The Canine Film Academy

There is someone who deals regularly with Jean Dodds in the US from the UK.

See above.


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> There are two main labs in the UK Idexx and Cambridge specialist Laboratory services. Mine go to Cambridge.
> Cambridge do a Platinum Canine Thyroid Profile which is T4,TSH,FT4ED,TGAA the one that I first mentioned as mimiumum I had done.
> In addition to this you can have a T3 done as well as an extra individual test.Im not sure exatly what Idexx offer a not used them, they do Thyroid tests but bot sure exactly what their profiles are, I should imagine it probably is the same.
> 
> One thing I just noticed if he isnt insured and everything is lodged on his notes prior to insurance you are not going to be covered.


Do you mind me asking if you can remember how much the "full works" would cost, we are saiving for a holiday so i have a little aside, that can be used to check Dodge out instead.

I am not sure what is on his records at the moment, just a check up, jabs, and advice to see Donna, do you think i would be better of saving the money if its not going to be covered, I guess if its related to his agression, they would get out of paying that way... i hate insurance companies sometimes.


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> The Canine Film Academy
> 
> There is someone who deals regularly with Jean Dodds in the US from the UK.
> 
> See above.


Ahh another option, this is fantastic, I knew it was a good call joining this forum. :001_tt2:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Samy said:


> Thank you all, hopefully your not upset with the order I have done things in, I have booked Donna for the 19th of this month to come and spend some time with us, I want to make sure we are not causing the issue, after her assesment and my next pay cheque  I am going to book him in for a thyroid/full blood work, Donna did say that the vets in UK are not nearly as advanced in checking things as in the states, but hopefully the vet will be able to check the correct things, I will come back a re read this thread before I take Dodge and see what the vets says when I am in there, hopefully as long as I have my flexible friend with me they will just do what i want!! he he
> 
> One thing is that Donna has asked me to film Dodges funny moods with us, the only thing I can think of is getting out my mobile and filming it unless any of you have any wonderful ideas for me??
> (I need to show her his body language so that she can asses this also)


Use your phone if that is all you have. I have to say she sounds like she knows what she is doing - coming to you for a start, not going to her. Dogs behave differently somewhere else. Filming his difficult moments in case he doesn't display any in her presence? Sounds like you have a good one.

Good luck.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I hope things work out for you with Dodge.

If my dog is excited, ie playing fetch, he will give you the ball and wait impatiently for you to throw it again. If after the sit command I give him a command like paw or kiss, paw he will give a meaningful growl. Kiss he will will lunge and snap, we have to remind him to be steady.

When I place food down for Duke (most of the time he is nowhere to be seen) but if he is waiting then I give him the sit and wait command place his food down tell him to get it and sometimes I will stroke him. Most of the time I have to shout him for his dinner.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> There are 2 main labs in the UK:
> Idexx and Cambridge specialist Laboratory services.
> [My dogs' tests] go to Cambridge.
> 
> ...


another option: 
have all 5 / 6 tests run locally, free & bound T3 & T4, TSH, & possibly AntiNuclear-Antibody as well;
...then send the NUMBERS from the profile to *Michigan State Univ vet-labs*, 
& / or to *Dodds' lab*, for a 2nd or even a 3rd opinion. It can't hurt, & the database @ MSU 
is a vast resource, heaps of thyroid-values - plus the vets there are obviously very experienced 
with this specific issue. They deal with thyroid-panels from all over the world.

the numbers can be sent via FAX or scanned & attached to an e-mail, or photocopied & mailed.
the analysis can be sent to Ur e-mail address very easily, however U choose to send it out. :thumbup1:


Sled dog hotel said:


> ...if he *isn't [already] insured & everything is [not noted] prior to insurance,
> you are not going to be covered.*


*
yup - PRE-existing conditions, IOW those that are known before the insurance takes effect, 
are not covered by the policy. SO IF HE'S NOT INSURED YET, GET THE INSURANCE *BEFORE* 
THE DIAGNOSIS - file the insurance-form, THEN make the vet-appt for the thyroid panel. 

we're just pet-owners, we are not vets - & we certainly can't Dx a dog, particularly one we've 
never even seen, :lol: we're just making suggestions, & our suggestions aren't diagnostic - 
so get that insurance ahead of the Dx, or U are footing the whole bill on Ur own tab. :blush2:*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> another option:
> have all 5 / 6 tests run locally, free & bound T3 & T4, TSH, & possibly AntiNuclear-Antibody as well;
> ...then send the NUMBERS from the profile to *Michigan State Univ vet-labs*,
> & / or to *Dodds' lab*, for a 2nd or even a 3rd opinion. It can't hurt, & the database @ MSU
> ...


Just wanted to add that OP should not even take him to the vet until at least two weeks after the insurance has started. Any indication at all of the condition within the first two weeks and they won't pay.

I made that mistake with Joshua. When he started limping, it was within ten days of the policy starting. Who would have thought it would arthritis at 18 months old? I had to pay £900 for his x-rays as well as all his very expensive medication. And his hydrotherapy. They wouldn't pay for anything to do with it, because of that one vet visit.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Filming his difficult moments in case he doesn't display any in her presence?
> Sounds like you have a good one.


an aversive-based trainer [who WANTS the dog to screw-up so that s/he can then be punished, 
AKA 'corrected'] would *elicit the unwanted behavior - * IOW, they'd conduct a sting-op, 
*cause* the dog to [jump-up, snap over their food-bowl, erupt at another dog while on-leash, 
etc], so that they could then "show U how to correct that *bad* or *wrong* behavior", 
& then s/he would jerk the dog's collar, pin the dog, close the choke-chain/prong, whatever 
their particular 'correction' / aversive of choice. :nonod:

filming events that simply "happen", not deliberately triggering the unwanted behavior, 
is one ethical choice - but *avoiding the trigger & the over-threshold response altogether* 
is the best choice of all, as they dog then does not rehearse behaviors that we don't want, 
if U see what i mean?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> an aversive-based trainer [who WANTS the dog to screw-up so that s/he can then be punished,
> AKA 'corrected'] would *elicit the unwanted behavior - * IOW, they'd conduct a sting-op,
> *cause* the dog to [jump-up, snap over their food-bowl, erupt at another dog while on-leash,
> etc], so that they could then "show U how to correct that *bad* or *wrong* behavior",
> ...


I do, yes, but this behaviourist has never met the dog and wants to see what has been going on before she does anything. That sounds good to me. At least she will have an idea of what to expect in the future, not just go away with the wrong idea.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

when i have a client whose dog is reactive or aggro in any way, & they ask me, 
_"Do U want to see her / him (snap at me over the food-bowl, 
lunge & bark savagely at another dog, growl at the neighbor thru the fence...)_, 
i simply say, _"*No - * i don't need to see it, just describe the worst-case to me." _

i can see the predicting signals of the dog's reaction long-before it becomes an over-threshold event; 
the dog who worries about ppl around the food-bowl will gobble, or hunker, or freeze; the dog who reacts 
to other dogs on-leash will CLOSE their mouth when another dog is in sight or approaching, & often 
the reactive dog's TAIL will rise - or their gaze will fixate, etc.

i don't want to see "full-blown crazy"; the dog's earliest signals, & HOW FAR AWAY we are when 
those occur, are plenty of diagnostic-behavior for me to use as baseline, without ever triggering 
a meltdown.  I want to improve the dog's future behavior, & practicing stuff we don't want 
isn't improving, it's 'rehearsing' - it builds habits we don't want.

the first thing we must do to re-train unwanted behaviors is to STOP THEM HAPPENING.  
then we teach a new, preferred response - which replaces the former unwanted one.
'Control 1st - then, train.'


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

sorry I wasnt clear I had a lengthy chat in the vets and ask her about recognising dodges body language as he often gets "funny" with me when i go home to walk him at lunch time, I was asking the best books or sites to view, have tried a few but just cant work it out, she said if i could record it to show her then that would be great, she is also giving a talk in a few months which i will pop along to.

I wouldnt have time to stop and film dodges agressive side, its so hit an miss. I just wondered if anyone had had great ideas of how i could record him kinda without him knowing so as not to alter his behaviour... 

sorry to cause confusion :blushing:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Samy said:


> ...I had a lengthy chat in the vets' [office], & asked her about recognising Dodge's body language,
> as he often gets "funny" with me when [i'm] home to walk him at lunch time, I was asking
> the best books or sites to view, have tried a few but just can't [recognize the signals],
> she said if i could record it to show her... that would be great, she is also giving a talk
> in a few months, which i will pop along to.


see the STICKY on this sub-forum, titled *"Dog body-language - & why it matters so much.*

it's got heaps of video-links & photos, including several 1-hr long lunch-time seminars, 
which are broken into 10-minute video clips on U-Tube - very accessible, lots of clear info, 
LOTS of visual lessons. :001_smile:


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

OK so here is an update for those that wanted it 

Donna came today and spent nearly 3 hours with us, she thinks that Dodge has a reasonable chance of rehabilitation, and def. isnt past the point of no return  (_these weren't her exact words but we talked so much during that session and I don't have her write up yet so that's my wording of what she said_)

We have a tube of Arden Grange liver pate to use when he sees a dog so that he associates seeing a dog with getting this treat which he loves so much he will drop his Frisbee for - believe me this is rare!!

She also wants to train him with 3 other methods so we started today teaching the "watch" which will somehow be incorporated into his walks once he has learnt it.

We are changing his diet so I have been to the vets and our local pet food store and got lots of samples to try before fully moving him onto another food - the reason for this is the note from his previous owner said he had a bad reaction to the James Wellbeloved range of foods and i want to make sure this doesn't happen again.

The only thing I am really struggling with at the moment is that she wanted me to take him out either on a short lead (or a long line as a compromise for me) and if he starts to react to a dog to drop the lead and walk off, I know that she is suggesting this for a good reason but this though scars the crap out of me. I think I am going to have a phone call with her to confirm the details of what/when I need to do this at what stage again just to get it clear in my head 

I showed her a video I had taken during the week and she was able to see his behaviour which really helped her, this was his "funny" behaviour not his aggressive side - my aim is to get a video of his dog interaction next.

Also she noted when teaching the "Watch" he was far more relaxed with me than he was with Jon, something that although we know he prefers women hadn't noticed a difference in our house but there a very small changes in behaviour - very interesting


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

So glad that you have got something positive from your first session and that you are now more confident. I would telephone and anything you are not sure/confident about just run it past her and have a chat to put your mind at rest before you implement it.

Good luck and keep us updated.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I am glad the behaviourist I suggested has worked out, I think you may have misinterpreted what she said about dropping the lead, just give her a ring.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Samy said:


> The only thing I am really struggling with at the moment is that she wanted me to take him out either on a short lead (or a long line as a compromise for me) and if he starts to react to a dog to drop the lead and walk off, I know that she is suggesting this for a good reason but this though scars the crap out of me. I think I am going to have a phone call with her to confirm the details of what/when I need to do this at what stage again just to get it clear in my head


The thought of you doing this in public in an uncontrolled environment with unknown dogs scares the crap out of me too if I'm honest! Surely she can't mean that though? I know the idea behind it but a controlled environment with stooge dogs is the place to do this, not on the street or in the park with unsuspecting dog walkers and unknown dogs who may have their own issues  I would give her a call and ask about it.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> The thought of you doing this in public in an uncontrolled environment with unknown dogs scares the crap out of me too if I'm honest! Surely she can't mean that though? I know the idea behind it but a controlled environment with stooge dogs is the place to do this, not on the street or in the park with unsuspecting dog walkers and unknown dogs who may have their own issues  I would give her a call and ask about it.


I agree. Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen to me.


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

Glad I am not the only one struggling maybe I have not understood what she said and as soon as I have her written report I will see if its in there and give her a call to find out what grounds this should be done on, maybe she was referring more to us not stepping in and thus dropping the lead to distance our hands from any fight... will get this double checked.

Back to the food store today for more "good" food for Dodge and then off to see who wants to buy my boxes of pedigree off me 

Dodge is currently led over my feet and seems very happy  more of this behaviour everywhere please matey!!

Thanks again everyone for all your help and advise its been great on this forum


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Samy said:


> Glad I am not the only one struggling maybe I have not understood what she said and as soon as I have her written report I will see if its in there and give her a call to find out what grounds this should be done on, maybe she was referring more to us not stepping in and thus dropping the lead to distance our hands from any fight... will get this double checked.


The idea I've read about it is that you drop the leash and walk away so the dog is left on his own and thinks "oh sh*t, I've got nobody to back me up here!" and thinks better of his behaviour. However not all dogs give a damn, some will take the opportunity and with nothing to stop them will go in for the attack. All very well if done with plenty of control but quite another matter if just done any time the dog kicks off at another dog. Hopefully she's not meaning for you to just drop your dogs leash whenever he kicks off in the hopes he'll be one who does go "oh sh*t, best not do that if owner isn't gonna back me up!"

Course it may well be a misunderstanding and I'm completely off on what I'm thinking she means.


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## Guest (May 20, 2012)

Samy said:


> The only thing I am really struggling with at the moment is that she wanted me to take him out either on a short lead (or a long line as a compromise for me) and if he starts to react to a dog to drop the lead and walk off, I know that she is suggesting this for a good reason but this though scars the crap out of me. I think I am going to have a phone call with her to confirm the details of what/when I need to do this at what stage again just to get it clear in my head


So glad you had a good meeting and are feeling more positive about managing and training your dog!

The above does work for many dogs, but I think you may have missed a few steps/precautions in the process. Definitely check back in with the trainer and ask for clarification. Generally there is a second line or other precaution taken to prevent an actual attack if the dog doesnt notice that youve left him.


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