# Waiting Lists



## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

So as we are planning to breed Juno next year, we thought it would be a good idea to set up a waiting list and allow people to come and interact with Juno and also visit her mum and sister where we got her, since the breeder will be taking a puppy.

Her HC-HSF4 eye test has came back clear!  Breathing and heart all good so far and will be rechecked again before putting her to stud. Just x-rays now and Putnam Patella score. 
Stud is fully health tested and got good scores and clear results  

We set a waiting list up about 10 days ago and the response has been unbelievable!  We have had 19 people contact us! Actually thought we would be lucky to even get one or two within a month!

If any one has used waiting lists before, how long did it take to fully book a planned litter?


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

You can book all you like but things don't always work out.I had 8 people booked before i mated my girl, when i notified everyone on the list that my girl was pregnant i didn't hear back from any of them.Things change,people don't always want to wait.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Good idea in theory but as said don't rely on them. I had six plus myself for a litter of four. Four were on the list before mating because they wanted pup from my girl. All pulled out, except me  , for various genuine reasons.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Bjt said:


> You can book all you like but things don't always work out.I had 8 people booked before i mated my girl, when i notified everyone on the list that my girl was pregnant i didn't hear back from any of them.Things change,people don't always want to wait.


I can only re-enforce this massively.

Things might be slightly different as you have a less common breed, however, do be prepared for the unexpected.

Waiting lists can be a right royal pain in the a$$e at times - people mess you about, change their minds, and with the more common breeds where they are looking for pets and good breeders are two a penny - pedigrees are often far less important.

Fingers crossed, you won't have these problems - but do be prepared to expect the unexpected.

Most of my prospective owners don't visit until the babies are four weeks old - many of them living far and wide across the UK - but when they do come, they meet the adult dogs first before they get sight of the babies - I find dogs a very good judge of character and how they react to hulking great labradors can be a good guide as to how they will cope with owning one.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks for the replies  
Think I will be keeping most of them for the moment though and be prepared for anything.

The whole idea of letting people come visit is so they can interact with the adults first, was Juno's breeders idea, as she said she had so many people come to her looking for a puppy but knew hardly anything about the breed in general.
No visitors to see puppies until they are 4 weeks old anyway 

I know that nothing is set in stone with anyone who has contacted us, so I'm fully prepared for people changing their minds and pulling out.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

On the other side of the coin you may have to let people down as you cant garuntee puppies.

I have been on a waiting list for 2yrs and when the bitch was scanned only 2 pups were visible and im3rd on the list


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

We have been there before too.
On the Waiting list for a girl and the litter was 5 boys no girls


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Starlite said:


> On the other side of the coin you may have to let people down as you cant garuntee puppies.
> 
> I have been on a waiting list for 2yrs and when the bitch was scanned only 2 pups were visible and im3rd on the list


Yes  it happened to me - we have had to put having a litter on hold twice because of mine / my OH's health problems - on both occasions I had people who had been waiting a long time, and it felt "different" somehow - i.e. pretty solid - it was gutting 

Similarly, I've been let down - but never once regretted the "alternative" I was offered (even if she does drive me insane from time to time )


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

Yes be prepared for alot of disappearing people once the pups arrive! half these people are dreamers and dont even have the money for a dog like this (frenchie is it by your photo or the other one?!) 

If the pups are well bred and your in touch with other breed people and your breeder im sure you'll have no trouble finding good homes through them. 

If your breeder has a waiting list she may pass on some good people to you also? they often will do if they dont have litters planned for a while.


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

Juno is stunning by the way :thumbup: I may wait on your list myself:001_wub:


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Yes Bullymastiff, she's the frenchie  the one in my avatar is the same one in the signature (Juno)

I've had a few people asking if they could do a payment scheme sort of thing to pay, but I haven't worked anything like this out yet, as I wont take any deposits off anyone until puppies are here and would prefer full payment before the puppies leave. 
I know of a lot of people scamming some breeders with fake money and saying they will pay the puppy up and fail to follow through. We bought in an ultraviolet light to check notes though.

We are in touch with a few breeders and also breed clubs. We also keep in contact with Juno's breeder every month too, I know she has a few waiting list up too.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2012)

love our big babies said:


> Yes Bullymastiff, she's the frenchie  the one in my avatar is the same one in the signature (Juno)
> 
> I've had a few people asking if they could do a payment scheme sort of thing to pay, but I haven't worked anything like this out yet, as I wont take any deposits off anyone until puppies are here and would prefer full payment before the puppies leave.
> I know of a lot of people scamming some breeders with fake money and saying they will pay the puppy up and fail to follow through. We bought in an ultraviolet light to check notes though.
> ...


deposits can be a sore point though i myself don`t have a problem leaving money to reserve a pup , did this with my last dog and paid off the balance by cheque a week before i picked him up.
a lot depends on how much you trust someone though and vice versa. payment scheme sounds a bit dodgy though say if your not happy with the sellers and they`ve near on paid £1000`s in ??? would you be in a position to refund before the pups were due to leave ??


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I think the number doesnt matter, its the quality of the people on the lists.

I wouldnt want 17 people who saw it anywhere online but 2 dedicated people of the breed and great dog owners. Thats just me though.

Just seen what i believe to be your add too, WOW!!!!! £2000, is she a proven bitch? My word that is a lot per puppy!!:scared: I'm actually a little taken aback by that!


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2012)

still only a puppy too find it a bit unbelievable to be honest , how can you even think about taking a litter from a dog before it has had chance to properly mature
http://www.petforums.co.uk/introductions/222088-hi-everyone.html

13 weeks old in February of this year , so still very much a baby


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

surely if she is still a puppy herself there is no way of knowing if she would be a good mother?

just because a puppy looks nice and even if they are from good parents doesnt mean a whole lot really! 

I definitely wouldnt be making a waiting list on a bitch who was still a puppy herself!!


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

Ooh maybe a bit early for a waiting list! but if the bitch was 13 weeks in feb, then op did say breed her next year...now if that was december next year she'd be 2 so thats not too bad. If it is planned early next year then yes not good. I dont believe any bitch should be bred under 2 yrs.


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

I am crap at maths so excuse me if thats completely wrong :arf:


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

where do people advertise their waiting lists?


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2012)

Bullymastiff said:


> Ooh maybe a bit early for a waiting list! but if the bitch was 13 weeks in feb, then op did say breed her next year...now if that was december next year she'd be 2 so thats not too bad. If it is planned early next year then yes not good. I dont believe any bitch should be bred under 2 yrs.


litter planned for summer 2013 which would make the bitch 17 / 18 months old depending on the month she were mated wouldn`t it ?


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

diablo said:


> litter planned for summer 2013 which would make the bitch 17 / 18 months old depending on the month she were mated wouldn`t it ?


Yep, sorry didnt see summer 2013 anywhere, just next year.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2012)

Bullymastiff said:


> Yep, sorry didnt see summer 2013 anywhere, just next year.


part of the ad that`s been placed up.



> We are currently taking names to be placed on our waiting list..
> Our first litter of French bulldogs will be Summer 2013.
> Our bitch is fawn with black mask.
> The Stud we will be using is also fawn.
> ...


so when she actually goes to mating , she will be much younger


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

Ok...agreed then too young, bitch should be 2 minimum at time of mating. 

Dont know if correct aswell as not seen ad but someone said £2000? 

my frenchie cost £1750 from a top breeder and lines, and the top breeder/shower in the country charges £1800 for show quality puppies


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2012)

Bullymastiff said:


> Ok...agreed then too young, bitch should be 2 minimum at time of mating.
> 
> Dont know if correct aswell as not seen ad but someone said £2000?
> 
> my frenchie cost £1750 from a top breeder and lines, and the top breeder/shower in the country charges £1800 for show quality puppies


yes £2000
i posted on a thread a while back , went to see a frenchie litter last year , litter only consisted of boys though , was a top breeder , whose own dogs have done extremely well in shows , puppies priced @ £700 as i said though , they were all males , would have snatched breeders arm off sadly wasn`t the right time for me got to be said though the pups were scrummy:thumbup: even top breeders with litters on the ground right now are not charging anywhere near that price. shocking


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Where did u all find the ad?


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2012)

on the pets4homes website.


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

To the op with the frenchie

1.the bitch will be too young to be bred at that age. You will not have a true idea of health or temperament. also her health could be very badly affected and her mental state. 

2.let me give you an idea of how things can go with the best planning....

I mated my bitch at 2.5 yrs.(health tested at cost of £400) Had a waiting list. she didnt take. 
so i lost travelling costs and costs of vets because she got an infection. 
all in all probably about £500.

I mated her again next season, she took. We paid out hundreds on whelping kits, again travelling costs,vets, scans etc...we had 8 pups of which 6 were dead. 
so i had 2 boys. 1 of which was owed to stud owner. probably about £2000-£3000 already spent out. take away the cost of feeding, worming, vaccinating, kc reg, microchips and i lost ALOT of money. 

Thats the reality. 

3. most importantly you risk losing your bitch 

Please re-think at least the age you breed her, she will stand a better chance of being a good mum and healthy pups if shes old enough.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I am not sure on age, small breeds used to be bred on their second or third season so usually well under 2 years.

I do think with a rare breed it is handy to let prospective puppy owners meet the adult dogs before committing themselves. Probably better to go to a big breeder and see a good selection though.
I was interested in getting a puli many years ago. I liked them in photos, I liked what I read about them and I went to visit a breeder with only positive thoughts - and I did not like them at all!


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

We are still deciding wither or not to wait until Winter next year to mate her, everyone who contacts us is told this too. We also tell them how old she is too so we're not hiding anything.
We have spoken to her breeder, other people in the breed and also our vet about breeding her, all we keep being told is either 19 months up wards or her 3rd season  
But to make sure health tests were carried out first.

So should it be 2 years and it doesn't matter how many seasons she has until then?

She will be a year in November and if we went ahead with a mating in summer she would be 19/20 months.

As for price, we are advertising £2000 yes, but are planning on dropping the price once they are here. We constantly discuss this and although Juno's breeder says no keep it, as health testing costs so much and if we breed her a few years down the line, then we can drop the price.

I also know that there was a litter of unregistered Frenchie puppies, no health tests done, and they were being sold for £1500. All fawn.

We paid over £2000 for Juno. We have noticed that most breeders vary their prices depending on what sex, most boys cost a lot less, and colour, cheapest are mainly brindle then pied and then fawn. People who breed blues and other unregistered colours charge anything from £2500 - £5000 (£5000 was one we had seen a few months ago for black and tan)
Even some "good" breeders we visited last year were breeding the unregistered colours.

We set up a waiting list now because we were being told that it would be the best thing to do and to help prepare.


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

Only once started a waiting list and by the time the pups were born, all but 1 family had gone elsewhere and didn't bother to let me know. Now I tell them to keep an eye on my website, to contact me once my girl has whelped and the pups are 10 days old. I then start my waiting list.

£2000, yikes , I guess you don't know how slow puppy sales are at the moment, advertise at this price and you could be left with the whole litter.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

I know everywhere is different. 

Just for examples:

Juno's breeder advertised her litter at £2200, then would say boys were £1700. She had sold her litter within 2 weeks and there was 7 puppies.

There are a few DDB breeders all within an hours drive from us and they all sell puppies for £1500. Only last week one had advertised and they are now all gone.

So maybe location depends on how fast puppy sales are?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

2000 to me would have to be a proven bitch in everyway and champion parents too.

also as she is still a puppy is it not a bit previous to put a waiting list up, many dogs are promising puppies but are not great examples of a breed by the time for breeding. I would think, especially with a price of £2000 that she would have to be the best example that breed has ever known and for this surely she would have to be a champion.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> 2000 to me would have to be a proven bitch in everyway and champion parents too.
> 
> also as she is still a puppy is it not a bit previous to put a waiting list up, many dogs are promising puppies but are not great examples of a breed by the time for breeding. I would think, especially with a price of £2000 that she would have to be the best example that breed has ever known and for this surely she would have to be a champion.


As I said we are planning to drop the price. I know we are advertising at this price at the moment, but we are not going to take that for a puppy.

Most bulldogs, French or English cost around £2000. From what I've seen and this includes adults.
I also know of frenchie breeders who openly say they have to clean their puppies after going to the toilet because of their tail being too close and stumpy. Among so many other problems. I also know of a lady who paid £1500 for a 12 week puppy from a breeder only to have the puppy pts a month later due to serious heredity health problems, which weren't checked before mating the parents. Only eye tests were carried out as this is all the KC require for the breed.

I will however take in what you have said. I will also put this to people I know within the breed and also other breeders of the breed. As I think you do have a good point about price.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> I know everywhere is different.
> 
> Just for examples:
> 
> ...


  

I am sorry, this sounds well dodgy to me - why would you advertise at a price and then change it  

I'm sorry - but that screams BYB breeder to me - setting a price to sell any remaining puppies - shocking - you set a price and you stick with it. I don't know your breed, but £2K sounds way OTT to me 

You mentioned DDB - they are probably about 10 times the size of your breed - I have Labs which are inbetween the two - for a litter of 8, I probably spend around £100 a week on food - so you can just imagine what a DDB breeder who does things probably would be spending for an average litter - your costs won't be anywhere near this.

As for selling boys for £500 less than bitches  this is what you are effectively implying if you paid over £2K for your girl.

A breeder can't dictate what will turn up in the litter gender wise - but overall, it doesn't cost any more to produce girls than it does to produce boys - it depends on which direction mother nature decides to go - and that bit of breeding is outside all of our controls 

I have nothing against advertising litter details early - *but you simply CANNOT advertise the litter before the bitch has been health-tested -* - what if it fails one or more of the health tests? 

You advertise once the health tests have been done, the results back and acceptable, and when you've decided on who you are using as the sire.

And once you have completed all of the above, decide on a price and STICK WITH IT.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

diablo said:


> on the pets4homes website.


cant find it...


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jimbo_28_02 said:


> cant find it...


Hopefully, it's been removed - I cannot fathom anyone advertising the litter a pup is going to have before the health-tests have been done - that's effectively trying to attract buyers under false pretences.

It would also fall foul of the law as it is false advertising in every sense of the word.

The setting of a price which "might be changed" - screams of testing the water to see how many mugs will respond at that price (and we know people do as they buy cross-breeds at silly prices under false pretences) - and then if we have more puppies than mugs, we will drop the price  

I haven't said anything about the age of the bitch, because there are some small breeds where they reach maturity much earlier than larger breeds and where having a first litter is acceptable below 2 years - I don't know enough about small breeds, or this breed, to comment either way.

ETA - OP - why would you possibly "keep most of the pups yourself?" - keeping multiple young pups is not a good idea unless you have the setup to accommodate it - as it requires a lot of time and commitment to ensure proper training and avoiding the pups bonding too much with each other to the exclusion of their owners - and setting you up for a fall if you plan breeding on / separating them later on.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2012)

jimbo_28_02 said:


> cant find it...


ad is still there.
all i can say is , there are a lot of french bulldog litters advertised on the site , i went through them all. and all those people looking for a frenchie , will have more than likely obtained their pup by the time this litter comes around so the waiting list would have become a pointless effort , especially when there are litters on there that look okay advertised a lot , lot cheaper than what the OP is asking. why spend £2000 if you have the possibility of saving over £1000 ?? don`t make an awful lot of sense to me.
as i said some of the best breeders out there that currently have litters on the ground are charging nowhere near this and their own dogs have done extremely well in shows.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Have to agree with all thats being said.

I dont know why a waiting list for a dog that hasnt had all health tests is being advertised. what if she fails the tests in november? will you tell them that there will be no puppies then?

also like swarthy said, the costs reflect how much the pups have cost to rear, a good breeder should cover the costs but not be looking for a big profit, this is why larger breeds cost more, they cost a lot to feed plus the mother has to fed a lot to feed the puppies.


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

I would say just hold out, see how she develops, all dogs mature at different rates. But she needs to have finished all her growing, and be stable temperament wise. Like i say the best laid plans and all that...

You do seem to be doing alot right, but i would say seriously, just wait, see how she goes and dont be in any rush. her and the pups will stand a better chance if shes fully mature. 

As for the price its up to you obviously what you charge, i think people were pointing out that as shes never had a litter before (ie you cant say 'look heres the previous pups they are winning shows, healthy, great temper') that people may not want to pay that amount. 

I only sold my one pup i had and that was slightly below usual asking price for my breed, if i bred my bitch again however i would charge more as i have proof that the previous pups are great breed examples and healthy. 

Any breeders that change the price for girls/boys or colour are a joke, they should all be the same price in my book.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> also like swarthy said, the costs reflect how much the pups have cost to rear, a good breeder should cover the costs but not be looking for a big profit, this is why larger breeds cost more, they cost a lot to feed plus the mother has to fed a lot to feed the puppies.


I have never understood why a small breed should cost less, after all they have fewer puppies but it still costs as much for the travelling costs to the stud dog, often for the mating itself, scanning, vets bills etc. And there might only be 2 or 3 pups as against 8 or more to sell. Mind you chis are very expensive!



Bullymastiff said:


> Any breeders that change the price for girls/boys or colour are a joke, they should all be the same price in my book.


I dont agree with this. It seems very common, even with crossbreed pups, for bitches to cost more than dogs. And certain colours seem to attract a higher price too. It may not be something that a lot of people agree with but it does seem a fact of life. 
I have seen on here too that a pet puppy should be the same price as a show puppy from the same litter. Again I do not agree, with any animal the best of the young sell for far more than the average. A lot of work has gone into producing an outstanding pup/foal/calf/lamb - why should there not be a monetary gain.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2012)

Blitz said:


> why should there not be a monetary gain.


fact is how can you possibly be looking at charging more than a top winning breeder , i could link you to a very , very nice litter of frenchies right now [but won`t] from a consistent top winning breeder who is charging considerably less than £2000 for their pups , so why on earth would someone go to someone charging £2000 for a puppy whose parents are not proven ?? afraid it doesnt make sense to me because i know which one i would choose given the choice.
i don`t think there should be a lot of monetary gain from breeding because in effect it`s throwing out the message it`s all too easy , which it isn`t! i think most decent breeders are lucky to break even.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

diablo said:


> fact is how can you possibly be looking at charging more than a top winning breeder , i could link you to a very , very nice litter of frenchies right now [but won`t] from a consistent top winning breeder who is charging considerably less than £2000 for their pups , so why on earth would someone go to someone charging £2000 for a puppy whose parents are not proven ?? afraid it doesnt make sense to me because i know which one i would choose given the choice.
> i don`t think there should be a lot of monetary gain from breeding because in effect it`s throwing out the message it`s all too easy , which it isn`t! i think most decent breeders are lucky to break even.


I wasnt talking about the OP's impending litter. I know nothing about prices of her breed and if she really is asking more than top breeders then that is nuts but not what I said.

I said why should there not be a monetary gain from producing something outstanding. Why should that pup cost the same as a pet quality pup from the same breeder.
If it is wrong to make a profit then no litter should have a price tag until it is reared, after all costs vary enormously.


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I wasnt talking about the OP's impending litter. I know nothing about prices of her breed and if she really is asking more than top breeders then that is nuts but not what I said.
> 
> I said why should there not be a monetary gain from producing something outstanding. Why should that pup cost the same as a pet quality pup from the same breeder.
> If it is wrong to make a profit then no litter should have a price tag until it is reared, after all costs vary enormously.


Well it would be great bonus if there was monetary gain! sadly for the best breeders theres often not. Its usually only idiots that skimp on health tests, rearing etc that make any cash 

It is a fact agreed that colours/sex affect the price, but in my opinion it should not. No decent breeder i know charges more for sex/colour.

All a breeder should give a s*it about is improving the breed. money shouldnt come into it. 
My pups were a vast improvement on my bitch, and the grandkids from them. 
I tell you the pride i get seeing them now winning shows and being healthy and happy is worth more to me than any money. Thats what you dont get from money PRIDE. And the cash i could have made would have been long gone by now...i instead have the ongoing fun of seeing these babies do well.

And with a maiden bitch you have no idea what you are producing! hence the price should not be a premium until you know your producing something great

(sorry Blitz who i quoted that not all aimed at you!)


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2012)

I have to agree with the others, and in all honesty for £2000 I'm not surprised people want to do a payment plan  Your girl is beautiful OP but maybe its best to advertise once your girl is pregnant, we we're on a waiting list for our RR but her mum was already pregnant.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

malibu said:


> I have to agree with the others, and in all honesty for £2000 I'm not surprised people want to do a payment plan  Your girl is beautiful OP but maybe its best to advertise once your girl is pregnant, we we're on a waiting list for our RR but her mum was already pregnant.


There is nothing wrong with building a waiting list for a planned litter - I and many other breeders do it - as soon as I have finalised my plans, I put the planned mating and all the relevant information including the proposed pedigree on my website.

The issues here are the age of the bitch (i.e. not been health-tested yet) - also not mature, so impossible to know who would be the best sire - and of course the price which from what I can see is higher than established breeders using health-tests with successful show bitches using SH CH and JW sires


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2012)

swarthy said:


> There is nothing wrong with building a waiting list for a planned litter - I and many other breeders do it - as soon as I have finalised my plans, I put the planned mating and all the relevant information including the proposed pedigree on my website.
> 
> The issues here are the age of the bitch (i.e. not been health-tested yet) - also not mature, so impossible to know who would be the best sire - and of course the price which from what I can see is higher than established breeders using health-tests with successful show bitches using SH CH and JW sires


Sorry that's what I mean, the fact that she hasn't had all the health tests done yet so she could fail one (or more) may not even get pregnant etc.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

I know they say small dogs mature faster, but I would certainly wait until 2yrs. You need to know how your bitch will turn out to know if she would be a good candidate for breeding.

Waiting list don't always pan out. I like to have 6-8 people and take more who know they might not get a pup or they may if other people don't. Having 3-5 that are solid (99% going to take a pup) is great to me.

I've had a couple people actually put deposits but not get a pup from the breeding. It's only happened twice.

Waiting list can be great though. I've had people wait 2yrs or so for a pup. So some people will be sure and have the patience to wait.



swarthy said:


> I am sorry, this sounds well dodgy to me - why would you advertise at a price and then change it
> 
> I'm sorry - but that screams BYB breeder to me - setting a price to sell any remaining puppies - shocking - you set a price and you stick with it. I don't know your breed, but £2K sounds way OTT to me
> 
> ...


In the states FB and EB are usually fairly high priced. While they are not big they can be costly when breeding. For this female you have to factor in health test and probably a costly stud fee. Many of the time AI is done to breed, then C-Section to deliver. Then round the clock care for weeks to make sure the pups are nursing and getting on ok, pottying properly and staying clean. It is more costly breeding than a normal / non brachycephalic breed and it is also more time consuming because of the same reason. Which is why Frenchies here(the states) typically cost more than a Lab even though both are quality breeders.

I will say their price seems extremely high though. A first time Frenchie breeder with no track record and doesn't seem the bitch is proven. So I'd agree that in this case it's probably asking a lot. You could get a show quality FB from a reputable breeder from proven parents for less.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

SpicyBulldog said:


> For this female you have to factor in health test and probably a costly stud fee. Many of the time AI is done to breed, then C-Section to deliver. Then round the clock care for weeks to make sure the pups are nursing and getting on ok, pottying properly and staying clean. It is more costly breeding than a normal / non brachycephalic breed and it is also more time consuming because of the same reason. Which is why Frenchies here(the states) typically cost more than a Lab even though both are quality breeders.


I take on board what you are saying, however, most other breeds have to factor in health tests, I have labs, and test my dogs for:


Hip scores

Elbow scores

DNA testing for PRA and CNM

Annual Eye tests

Colour coat testing

From that little lot, you won't get much change from *£600*, add in hip and elbow scores under GA and you can add at least another £200.

I use a vet which is a 4 hour round trip for hips and elbows because I trust him and he uses sedation - my own vet uses GA - I paid not far off £500 over 7 years ago, plus the BVA fees - currently £90. At £6 a gallon for fuel (it has fallen nearly 80p in recent months) - you can add in another £50 for fuel if you wish.

You are looking at an additional £450/£500 for the stud dog fee plus travelling - my last stud dog and the forthcoming dog require 2 x 8 hour round trips - with the cost of fuel, that's an additional £100.

A further £200 for pre-mate testing.

Labs can need c-sections just like any other breed - I appreciate that it's more likely in brachycephalic breeds - however - breeders don't factor in the cost of a possible c-section.

With the greatest respect, I stay with my pups day and night for the *entire 8 weeks * - working for myself, if I don't work, I am not getting paid - so I am working with a litter directly in front of me.

Mum and then my pups have a very varied diet which costs me around £100 a week.

My last winter litter saw an uplift of £700 in my gas and electric bills.

My pups are KC registered, wormed and microchipped - no change on an average size litter from £300.

===================

The total costs listed above, considering no other eventualities or any time I've missed off work - £3,250 - 5 pups sold at £550 each - total income £2,750 - you do the maths if you think it is cheap to breed other breeds.

That doesn't factor in the £300 I spent on vets fees when my litter unfortunately contracted KC from one of my girls I took to a show.

It also doesn't factor in a c-section.

nor does it factor in any time lost off work.

My "profit" for want of a better word is my keeper - but when you consider I could buy in from another breeder from between £550 to £700 - it doesn't take much brain work to recognise whiich is the easier and cheaper route, but that of course doesn't take into consideration the desire to develop and improve your own breeding lines.

===================================

This wasn't meant to lead into "this is how much it costs to breed" thread - but the point is - it's not cheap to breed any breed responsibly - you price your pups long before the litter is even a twinkle in daddy's eyes - and you don't factor in what might happen, you don't change the pups prices if the worst does happen.

On the rare occasions you might make a profit, the best of luck to you - but generally you don't - in three litters I've just broken even - only because I took a second litter from my eldest bitch, meaning the only health-tests against the litter was the annual eye test.

None of this factors in whelping kit either, building and keeping it up to date can cost a fair few pennies.

========================

Why should a breeder factor in the costs of a c-section? It's neither the dog nor the puppy buyers fault if one is required.

In the UK now, the limit on litters from a single bitch has thankfully been dropped to 4 (with lower limits on some breeds for ABS members) -

If a bitch has 2 c-sections, it cannot be bred from again - if this isn't an incentive to look towards more natural breeding for brachycephalic breeds, I don't know what is and for that, they need to be looking at breeding out features which increase the need for c-sections, un-natural mating methods and the need to clean pups (and adult dogs it seems) each time they go to the toilet.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

I would never say it's cheaper to breed other breeds. It costs a lot to be able to breed I know that. My family have bred GSD, Springers, Boxers and also Labs, so I do have knowledge of the costs and risks. Yes this will be our first litter of bulldogs.
We done a lot of research into the breed too.
Juno comes from 3 generations of *SELF WHELPING* French bulldogs, don't have very large heads or excessive folds and also have longer snouts and tails of about 2-3 inches long.

We have already started health tests we can carry out at the moment and it is all going well so far. Once ALL tests are done and we mate her we would have spent around £3000. This also includes stud fee of £700 (proven, fully health tested and self ties no AI needed)

It also takes between 11-12 hours to travel to the stud dog and then the same back, so that would be 2x22/24 hour round trips.
Petrol at the moment where I live is 131.9 per litre, this will probably go up by the time we are ready to breed.

Just because she is a small breed doesn't mean it's that much cheaper to feed her! I spend on average £30 a week to feed Juno alone at the moment.

So far the total we have spent for the whelping kit and box is around £350.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2012)

love our big babies said:


> So far the total we have spent for the whelping kit and box is around £350.


you can see how all this is coming across though dont you?
your already spending money regarding the breeding of your bitch regardless of whether her tests come back okay or not. why not purchase everything when all the tests have come back in order which would still give you months of planning ahead because at this moment in time , she is still a puppy , you have absolutely no idea how she is going to turn out or whether shes actually `mother` material.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

If Juno doesn't pass all the remaining tests, then anyone we have on our list will be passed onto her breeder (which they all know too and have agreed with this)
As for the whelping kit and box if it comes to it that we wont need it then I will pass it onto some one who can.

Yes I understand where you are all coming from. I have mentioned before that I haven't hid anything and anyone who has contacted us know we are still carrying out tests too.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

diablo said:


> you can see how all this is coming across though dont you?
> your already spending money regarding the breeding of your bitch regardless of whether her tests come back okay or not. why not purchase everything when all the tests have come back in order which would still give you months of planning ahead because at this moment in time , she is still a puppy , you have absolutely no idea how she is going to turn out or whether shes actually `mother` material.


agree totally!

most do not get a whelping box until the dog is confirmed pregnant. why else do you need one when your girl is still only a puppy.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> Juno comes from 3 generations of *SELF WHELPING* French bulldogs, don't have very large heads or excessive folds and also have longer snouts and tails of about 2-3 inches long.
> 
> We have already started health tests we can carry out at the moment and it is all going well so far. Once ALL tests are done and we mate her we would have spent around £3000. This also includes stud fee of £700 (proven, fully health tested and self ties no AI needed


So you don't need to factor in c-section costs;

Where does the £3K come from? if the stud fee is £700 - that's £2.3K on health-testing  what tests should the breed have? - even if you take £300 off for travel costs, that's £2K on health-testing and pre-mate 

Out of curiosity - where is the stud dog? Lands End? (about 9.5 hours from you)

With the greatest respect - why on earth would you do a 24 hour trip twice - when you could stay at a 5 star hotel cheaper and have consecutive day matings.

Doing a 24 hour trip twice is insanity and also probably the more I think about it, actually physically impossible, illegal and highly dangerous unless there are 3 or 4 of you sharing the driving, because by the time you return home, you would have to leave again for the mating on the more usual mate one day & miss the next.

Our first stud dog was a good 14+ hour round trip - I stayed up and did matings on consecutive days - lovely litter of 8 pups.



love our big babies said:


> Just because she is a small breed doesn't mean it's that much cheaper to feed her! I spend on average £30 a week to feed Juno alone at the moment.


What are you feeding her? prime fillet steak 

The point is - WHY are you doing all this before she had all her health-tests done? it's pointless - I have an excellent bitch from the best lines - both sires BOB at Crufts, one of them twice - he also won the group and got into the final 7.

Her mum one ticket off a full champion (plus 7 reserve tickets), her dad a ticket and several reserve tickets and his JW.

She was a brilliant showgirl until her accident - just a few points off her show certificate of merit, knocking on the door for her stud book number in large classes on a regular basis - sadly, her hipscore was too high to breed from 

Despite this, I still had what was a pretty solid waiting list for her pups from show people in the UK and overseas and pet people - all of whom would have taken her pups despite the hipscore - all her other health tests available at the time were perfect -

My conscience wouldn't allow me to breed from her, even though I knew for a fact that providing I put her to an exemplary line (she also came from one) the risks of any of her progeny developing problems were no higher than if she had scored considerably less.

The point is - anything can go wrong - investing time and money at this stage on anything other than health-tests is a waste of time.

As for the amount you've spent on the whelping kit - again with the greatest of respect, is it gold plated 

Our whelping box big enough to have parties in was only £189 with all the gubbins. Heat lamps are £15 each with bulks around £5. Bottles are not cheap - but rubber gloves, nursing scissors etc are pennies in the great scheme of things.

I'm not being facetious - but I am curious where all the costs come in and why you would even consider doing the aforementioned trips which would be pretty much physically impossible.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

To me spending money on breeding supplies before health tests are done gives the impression you will breed her regardless of what the results are, that's how it comes across.

My Alaska had her litter in April, she was 2 and a half. We hip scored her at 12 months old, eye tested her at 6 months old and DNA CEA tested her. 

Only once we got the results back did we decide which stud to use to fit her results and once we spoke with the stud owner and confirmed it would be okay to use him did we start fully planning.

We bought her whelping box in August, we already had all of her results back by then. We didn't buy the whelping supplies until she was scanned in whelp. 

If her results had come back and I was not happy with them, I would have spayed her. Before I had her results I didn't know which stud dog I could use. You can't plan until you know.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

love our big babies said:


> We have already started health tests we can carry out at the moment and it is all going well so far. Once ALL tests are done and we mate her we would have spent around £3000. This also includes stud fee of £700 (proven, fully health tested and self ties no AI needed)


Wait woah?
She's a french bulldog yes?
Health Matters

I highly doubt all the health tests on the scheme will run up a bill of £2300.



love our big babies said:


> It also takes between 11-12 hours to travel to the stud dog and then the same back, so that would be 2x22/24 hour round trips.


What? you are going to do 2 24 hour trips with a in season bitch who lets be honest is not going to be feeling to fab after being mated. Why are you not just staying over locally?



love our big babies said:


> Just because she is a small breed doesn't mean it's that much cheaper to feed her! I spend on average £30 a week to feed Juno alone at the moment.


What are you feeding her may I ask?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

what are you feeding her, i doubt it costs that much for my food a week

alfie is a much larger breed and costs nowhere near £30 a week, i doubt a st bernard would either!


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> what are you feeding her, i doubt it costs that much for my food a week
> 
> alfie is a much larger breed and costs nowhere near £30 a week, i doubt a st bernard would either!


i fed two english mastiffs and i were spending nowhere near £30 a week , they were both on a quality complete feed


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Dont agree with advertising litters before they are born, let alone conceived

Personally I wouldnt advertise a litter under 5 weeks old. Would rather keep them for longer than have people waiting on pups. Pups are so vulnerable under 5 weeks old. I wouldnt want to disappoint anybody.

No matter what the breed 2000 pounds is ridiculous to me in the current financial situation most normal families are finding themselves in. I wouldnt want only people with an abundance of cash to be able to offer a home to my puppies. Lovely families with an abundance of time and love to give would be more appealing to me.

Eta How can you price pups without being able to assess their quality unless you intend to sell at pet prices' regardless of how fab the pups are2000 cannot be a 'pet' price for any breed surely.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chichi said:


> Dont agree with advertising litters before they are born, let alone conceived
> 
> Personally I wouldnt advertise a litter under 5 weeks old. Would rather keep them for longer than have people waiting on pups. Pups are so vulnerable under 5 weeks old. I wouldnt want to disappoint anybody


Sensible prospective owners are made fully aware of the risks (although many already know them).

I publish the details of forthcoming litters once I have decided on the sire - it's how you build a waiting list - this is practised by many many good breeders probably with the exception of the top end show and working kennels who often have waiting lists several years long. In the more common breeds, some people will decide not to wait if they are looking for pets only.

Prospective owners are then able to view from 4 weeks old.

In this instance the bitch is not even 12 months old yet 

ETA - I've been on a waiting list for all of mine bar one long before they were a twinkle in their dads eye and am on a waiting list now for when the right pup comes along - which may be years rather than months,


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2012)

chichi said:


> No matter what the breed 2000 pounds is ridiculous to me in the current financial situation most normal families are finding themselves in. I wouldnt want only people with an abundance of cash to be able to offer a home to my puppies. Lovely families with an abundance of time and love to give would be more appealing to me.
> 
> Eta How can you price pups without being able to assess their quality unless you intend to sell at pet prices' regardless of how fab the pups are2000 cannot be a 'pet' price for any breed surely.


not totally against a £2000 price tag BUT i would expect at the very least for the bitch and stud dog to have done very well at shows and the breeder to be extremely knowledgeable and well known within the circles of their chosen breed , appears the bitch hasn`t been shown and it`s OP`s first litter. as stated previously i know of a really nice litter on the ground right now , pups are a few weeks old , the breeder is reputable carried out all required health tests and excelled themselves time after time in the show ring with their dogs and is charging nowhere near this price.



love our big babies said:


> There are a few DDB breeders all within an hours drive from us and they all sell puppies for £1500. Only last week one had advertised and they are now all gone.


i`m also curious , being as dogue de bordeaux puppy prices have been mentioned does the OP plan on breeding the dogue de bordeaux too?


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

I can't believe there are 39 pages of adverts for French Bulldogs on Pets4Homes. I have not bothered trawling through them, but on the first page alone prices range from £700-£3700


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

swarthy said:


> So you don't need to factor in c-section costs;
> 
> Where does the £3K come from? if the stud fee is £700 - that's £2.3K on health-testing  what tests should the breed have? - even if you take £300 off for travel costs, that's £2K on health-testing and pre-mate
> 
> ...


I said *around* £3k, probably less than that to be honest, our vet is charging £200 for hips, £150 for elbows and £250 for spine x-ray. HC-HSF4 test is £72, Putnam Patella £80, heart test is £70 (we have already had one and will have another before mating so that would be £140) Breathing test £40 (again already had one and will have another so that's £80) Premate I think is £100 for the kit (our vet doesn't stock it) and with a vet fee on top of £30. So far that's £1102.
Stud dog is £700 we will be travelling to the far end of Essex about 450 miles away from us. As we usually travel to London and that takes us 11-12 hours (factoring in breaks) that is why I said it would probably take that long. About £150 for cost of petrol down there and £150 back home again. So far the cheapest for a 4 day stay would be £165. So that totals to £2267.

And to answer your question YES she gets fillet steak twice a week! Along with bones, fish, chicken, lamb and also a good quality dried food.

Anyway I get your points I shouldn't be advertising and so forth. It's been taken down and have passed everyone onto Juno's breeder for her next litter.

Thanks for all your insight.


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## miljar (Jan 27, 2012)

kirksandallchins said:


> I can't believe there are 39 pages of adverts for French Bulldogs on Pets4Homes. I have not bothered trawling through them, but on the first page alone prices range from £700-£3700


 There seems to be a lot of talk of money on this thread, particularly about a price tag of £2000. Surely the OP can ask what whatever price they want too - it will ultimately be set by whether or not people want to buy at that price. If the pups don't sell, for whatever reason, then the price will drop until it finds a level where people will buy. I see no harm in starting high, it is better than going in low and making less than you could have done. Market economy and all that.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

swarthy said:


> I take on board what you are saying, however, most other breeds have to factor in health tests, I have labs, and test my dogs for:
> 
> 
> Hip scores
> ...


I realize other breeds need health testing. Pups also need care

I was only mentioning some of the breeding cost.
Health test, stud fee/breeding related expenses.......

Of course any breed can need a C-section I know several breeders of other breeds which had to have one.

However some EB/FB schedule C-section and do AI every time. It is not a possible it is a planned procedure.

Breeders shouldn't shoot for profit, my point was here these breeds might come with a higher price tag due to more cost associated with breeding and more time consuming endeavor.

Nope never changed prices due to higher cost, small litter, ect. I fully agree. I breed for myself, line and to add quality dogs to the breed which means I don't sell a lot of pups in the first place.



> Why should a breeder factor in the costs of a c-section? It's neither the dog nor the puppy buyers fault if one is required.
> 
> In the UK now, the limit on litters from a single bitch has thankfully been dropped to 4 (with lower limits on some breeds for ABS members) -
> 
> If a bitch has 2 c-sections, it cannot be bred from again - if this isn't an incentive to look towards more natural breeding for brachycephalic breeds, I don't know what is and for that, they need to be looking at breeding out features which increase the need for c-sections, un-natural mating methods and the need to clean pups (and adult dogs it seems) each time they go to the toilet.


I suppose it is their personal choice to factor in that cost. What cost should breeders factor in? What do you think goes into their puppy pricing.

Some of these FB/EB breeders only breed their females 1-2xs anyway, numerous c-sections can be dangerous to the bitch for future pregnancies. There are also some which don't use need c-section and actually don't need one.

I couldn't agree more. I'm not fond of brachycephalic breeds myself. I understand people love the look but breeding for the extremes has created problem.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

miljar said:


> There seems to be a lot of talk of money on this thread, particularly about a price tag of £2000. Surely the OP can ask what whatever price they want too - it will ultimately be set by whether or not people want to buy at that price. If the pups don't sell, for whatever reason, then the price will drop until it finds a level where people will buy. I see no harm in starting high, it is better than going in low and making less than you could have done. Market economy and all that.


But it shouldn't be about making money.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2012)

Dogless said:


> But it shouldn't be about making money.


it most definitely should not ever be about making money in my book.
sadly seems like it is taking into consideration what i found elsewhere   i`m quite sad now


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

diablo said:


> it most definitely should not ever be about making money in my book.
> sadly seems like it is taking into consideration what i found elsewhere   i`m quite sad now


never should you work out a profit of breeding a bitch, tbh there really shouldnt be, but to calculate a profit per puppy while the bitch herself is still a puppy leaves a bitter taste in my mouth!


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

miljar said:


> There seems to be a lot of talk of money on this thread, particularly about a price tag of £2000. Surely the OP can ask what whatever price they want too - it will ultimately be set by whether or not people want to buy at that price. If the pups don't sell, for whatever reason, then the price will drop until it finds a level where people will buy. I see no harm in starting high, it is better than going in low and making less than you could have done. Market economy and all that.


Well yes you Can charge as much as people are willing to pay, but a heck of a lot of great homes will be missed out on that way. 
Same as a fair few times i got offered silly money for the tiny in my last litter (because his kid really wanted a handbag dog), and although I could have got a holiday out of that sale she instead went to a lovely woman who has had yorkies all her life, has her home modified for a tiny and has all the time and love in the world for little Paige... And by gosh knowing thats a better feeling than a wad of cash. 
I'm waiting on a pup for around a years time and turns out when I finally thought to ask her the probable price, it's a fair few hundred less than a not to good breeder I know of in the same breed. And the momma of my future pup is a very successful show dog, and I imagine the sire will be incredible as well!

IMO the goal in breeding shouldn't be profit, but getting your amazing pups into the perfect forever homes.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

swarthy said:


> Sensible prospective owners are made fully aware of the risks (although many already know them).
> 
> I publish the details of forthcoming litters once I have decided on the sire - it's how you build a waiting list - this is practised by many many good breeders probably with the exception of the top end show and working kennels who often have waiting lists several years long. In the more common breeds, some people will decide not to wait if they are looking for pets only.
> 
> ...


It may be accepted that breeders advertise litters that havent yet been born but I personally dont agree with it and never will. There are at least 10 weeks between pups being born and leaving me so plenty of time to find good family homes for pups. Sometimes I have had to keep a pup for a month or so longer because the right home hasnt come up and that is absolutely fine by me. I never 'count my chickens' before they hatch and I feel its tempting fate to find homes before the pups are born. Of course people will register interest with me at times, either recommended to me or if they are wanting a 2nd/3rd pup from me but that is different to advertising a litter where the puppies havent even been born or even conceived. Each to their own of course but I personally wouldnt do it:smile5:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

miljar said:


> There seems to be a lot of talk of money on this thread, particularly about a price tag of £2000. Surely the OP can ask what whatever price they want too - it will ultimately be set by whether or not people want to buy at that price. If the pups don't sell, for whatever reason, then the price will drop until it finds a level where people will buy. I see no harm in starting high, it is better than going in low and making less than you could have done. Market economy and all that.


Of course the OP can ask what she wants. But charging inflated prices is likely to attract the wrong kind of buyer. Decent prospective owners will know the going rate and will shy away from such an inflated price. The only kind of prospective owner attracted by inflated prices is likely to be the kind of buyer who knows nothing about the breed, or who thinks that paying over the odds means they are getting something "ordinary" buyers can't afford. Either way, not the kind of people I would like to purchase any of my pups.

In my breed (border collies) you can pick up a farm bred border collies for around £50.00 (or even less), but a puppy from a top show winning sire/dam will cost around £600 - £700. Nothing wrong with either - you pay for what you want. However, I would not pay £600-700 from an uproven sire/dam - and if I saw someone advertising border collies at £2000, my first thought would be, "Something wrong there. Don't touch 'em with a barge pole!"


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

It shouldn't be about money, the second it becomes about money standards slip.

Take Alaska's litter. Sold 2 puppies at £700 each. = £1400

Wow, alot of money! Not....

4 progesterone tests at £50 each = £200
Herpes vaccine = £80
Stud fee = £200
Whelping box = £180 (4ft x 4ft) 
Whelping kit = £50 (including gloves, puppy milk, towels ect)
Dopram V = £10
Heat pad = £75
Food for mummy and pups = £150
Chipping = £45
Vet checks and anti-biotics (alaska had a small infection)= £140
Toys = £40
KC registration = £39 (for 3 puppies)
Eye exam = £45
Panacur = £20
Vet beds = £45

Leaves me £75.

If I was to include Alaska's health tests cost too.
Hip score: £130
DNA CEA: £125
Eye exam: £50

-£230.

Not including.

Heating on 24/7 for 6 weeks.
Fuel to stud
Fuel to eye test clinic (which was 40 miles away)
Washer costs for all the cleaning of bedding.

If breeding is about a cute puppy, stick to buying them. It's cheaper.

It's easy to say with larger litters you will make more money but with larger litters there is more mouths to feed and more eye exams to get done. ect.

Anyone can stick to random dogs together, hell I have Aiden here who I could use to Alaska. Would have saved me £200 in stud fee and fuel costs.

Or I could have saved £45 and fuel costs by not eye testing them, they didn't need it with dad being genetic clear and mum a carrier. But I wanted to ensure that we had full peace of mind.

You can't charge x amount for a girl and x amount for a boy, they take the exact same amount of effort and cost to raise. You also can't up the cost because something went wrong. For my breed the average in the North is £700 and down south its £650 depending (I am in the North). However should I have upped my costs by £50 or so per puppy because Alaska had an infection?

I was quoted £1000 for an emergency C section by my 24 hour vet and that's without after care. (I asked incase I needed to take her in for one), so if that had happened should I have slapped an extra £500 per pup because it cost me more than a simple birth? No.

The new owners didn't ask for it to happen, its a thing of nature. Take the hit and move on. :wink:

Sorry for the mega rant.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2012)

love our big babies said:


> Anyway I get your points I shouldn't be advertising and so forth. *It's been taken down* and have passed everyone onto Juno's breeder for her next litter.


ad is still there and totally live , i`d hate to mislead people


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> I said *around* £3k, probably less than that to be honest, our vet is charging £200 for hips, £150 for elbows and £250 for spine x-ray. HC-HSF4 test is £72, Putnam Patella £80, heart test is £70 (we have already had one and will have another before mating so that would be £140) Breathing test £40 (again already had one and will have another so that's £80) Premate I think is £100 for the kit (our vet doesn't stock it) and with a vet fee on top of £30. So far that's £1102.
> Stud dog is £700 we will be travelling to the far end of Essex about 450 miles away from us. As we usually travel to London and that takes us 11-12 hours (factoring in breaks) that is why I said it would probably take that long. About £150 for cost of petrol down there and £150 back home again. So far the cheapest for a 4 day stay would be £165. So that totals to £2267.
> 
> And to answer your question YES she gets fillet steak twice a week! Along with bones, fish, chicken, lamb and also a good quality dried food.
> ...


Can you explain WHY your vet is charging more for hips than elbows  hips require ONE plate per leg - elbows THREE plates per leg - something wrong there somewhere 

I would also assume that the spinal x-ray would be done whilst the dog is under for hips and elbows (no-one would want to place their dog at additional risk of a second GA / sedation) - in which case I would say the vet saw you coming and someone somewhere has got their pricings confused.

I would suggest you ask around and find another vet - including the BVA fees (which you don't appear to have factored in) for hips and elbows I pay around £320 - if I didn't have elbows done - that would come down to under £150 incl BVA fees.

I cannot believe the costs of her feed comes to £30 a week - all 6 of mine are on a good quality grain free kibble - I have labs and it costs me roughly £30 a week to feed them all with the dried food.

On top of that they get raw eggs, goats milk, oily fish, mince, chicken and sometimes beef (yes steak). If I fed them all of these every day it wouldn't come to an additional £30 a week for SIX medium sized dogs.

The only time I see a massive hike in my food bill is when I have a feeding bitch / weaning litter - when 1kg of puppy food, a whole chicken, several cans of rice pudding, oily fish, beef, goats milk and raw eggs are the order of every day - a bitch of your girls size won't be putting half of that away - DDB with their size and probably bigger litters will be considerably more again.

How can you know the price of a 4 day stay? (and why would you need four days?) - as you have absolutely no idea when you will be going - and highly unlikely to until the pre-mate tests say "Mate now".

If you have confidence in the pre-mate tests, you simply do back to back matings - although even if you did one day then miss a day you would only need three days (two nights).

I am surprised at your travelling times - it is the same distance from here to Edinburgh - a journey we've done on several occasions for shows - the longest it's ever taken us is 9 hours. The AA puts the journey down to the far end of Essex at 7.5 hours (IME - you can take off at least an hour on a Sat Nav).

The pre-mate testing kit is around £100 (I would recommend asking for the longest possible date in case your bitch misses) - but why just £30 on top? there will be a cost for taking blood and running every test - which set me back with my last girl around £80.

=========================

Your costs to get your bitch into whelp is just over the cost of selling a single pup - the costs of me getting a bitch into whelp is the cost of THREE pups - before I even start feeding mum and the babies and getting the washing machine and tumble dryer going 24/7.

Personally I don't believe any breeder should be factoring in the costs of a c-section and most certainly not factoring in potential profit.  quite clearly if the bitch produces any more than 2 saleable pups, that's a very tidy profit 

And the cost of registering a pup with the KC is £13


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

swarthy said:


> I cannot believe the costs of her feed comes to £30 a week - all 6 of mine are on a good quality grain free kibble - I have labs and it costs me roughly £30 a week to feed them all with the dried food.
> 
> On top of that they get raw eggs, goats milk, oily fish, mince, chicken and sometimes beef (yes steak). If I fed them all of these every day it wouldn't come to an additional £30 a week for SIX medium sized dogs.


I must admit £30 a week for 1 dog of 11kg in weight is outrageous.

That would be £120 a month for 1 dog....a small dog.

Maybe a HUGE dog I could understand but it doesn't cost £30 a week for my 3 adult shelties and Scorcher!

hmy:


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

Just realise you might lose that £2267 along with your bitch....there is ALOT to lose with breeding. 

What are your reasons for wanting to breed her anyway?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Bullymastiff said:


> Just realise you might lose that £2267 along with your bitch....there is ALOT to lose with breeding.
> 
> What are your reasons for wanting to breed her anyway?


That's part of the norm when breeding - but if a bitch misses, there is always another attempt - there will still be some costs that have to be repeated such as premate (hence why I said about "sell by dates") and scans - and in my breeds case, annual eye tests.

In all truth, when doing it properly, it isn't about the money (there are much easier ways to earn it such as working  ) and ultimately - my main priority is the safety and wellbeing of my bitch at all costs - you can't put a value on that - bitches can and do die during or after whelping and c-sections.

ETA - I've had two dogs fully health-tested which I won't be breeding from - total loss including purchase costs well in excess of £2K - that's money that will never be recouped - and this is the reason why it's been pointed out quite strongly that the OP (who has apparently taken this on board) shouldn't be advertising anything until all the health tests have been done.

Apart from the annual eye test - I generally don't start health-testing until around 18 months of age - my last two bitches were 28 months and 16 months respectively - as I had the money, I opted to do them both at the same time - but I certainly don't rush to test at 12 months - my youngest boy is 21 months and I've not started testing yet,


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

I felt I had to post again as I am sure I must look a right bitch from some of my posts - that is not my intention at all - but there are some points I am really struggling with - and would be grateful if the OP was able to clarify. 

I don't personally believe any good breeder should set out to make a profit - if they do after dotting the Is and crossing the Ts then good luck to them - but that should never be a factor when considering breeding.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

swarthy said:


> I felt I had to post again as I am sure I must look a right bitch from some of my posts - that is not my intention at all - but there are some points I am really struggling with - and would be grateful if the OP was able to clarify.
> 
> I don't personally believe any good breeder should set out to make a profit - if they do after dotting the Is and crossing the Ts then good luck to them - but that should never be a factor when considering breeding.


I think i speak for pretty much everyone here in saying that you are not coming across that way at all and the dedication you put into breeding healthy and happy pups and helping others to do the same is very obvious, so to see someone set out for a profit from a very young puppy as it stands right now would make anyone question the op.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

swarthy said:


> I felt I had to post again as I am sure I must look a right bitch from some of my posts - that is not my intention at all - but there are some points I am really struggling with - and would be grateful if the OP was able to clarify.
> 
> I don't personally believe any good breeder should set out to make a profit - if they do after dotting the Is and crossing the Ts then good luck to them - but that should never be a factor when considering breeding.


You are definitely not coming across as bitchy. I think that the OP is just getting a little carried away with it being her first potential litter and probably hasnt given the downside to breeding enough thought. I think she has had some good advice and I get the impression that she will take it all on board as she seems to want to get it right.

seems to want to get it right. just needs to forget


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> I think i speak for pretty much everyone here in saying that you are not coming across that way at all and the dedication you put into breeding healthy and happy pups and helping others to do the same is very obvious, so to see someone set out for a profit from a very young puppy as it stands right now would make anyone question the op.


Thank you 

I am not perfect and please god I never claim to be - we all make mistakes and one of the things about the breeding world is we are all learning (at least we should be).

As we have learnt from stud fee discussions on here, it is possible that things are done differently in some breeds; although up to now, whilst we have established some wild variations in how stud fees are calculated, there has been a common ethos running through the responsible breeders of many breeds from the largest to the smallest and everything inbetween in some breeds there is a base charge with an additional price per surviving pup, in others the fee is a pup or the price thereof, in other breeds fees are double that of the price of a pup, in my breed - prices are generally around two thirds of the price of a pup - some retain the option to take a pup in lieu of a fee, some take the fee and then buy a pup.

A friend has been perusing litters of the breed, I think she is still trying to pick herself off the floor at the price range and some of the prices being charged 

Some things however are fairly static, such as elbows being pricier than hips to take plates for scoring - the OP hasn't mentioned BVA fees, but there is little point in taking the plates unless you are going to send them off (Hence why the choice of vet is so important - you can't make plates look better than they are, but it is very easy to make them look worse).

I am curious of the reasoning behind the hips and elbows being scored - there is a minute number scored (no indication of whether they are French) - but the range and breed average is almost impeccable compared to other breeds with low numbers scored (most score where a problem is suspected in the breed and does take a while to catch on - early indications suggest that isn't the case here).

Looking at the way the breed is weighted, I would guess that elbows are a more likely candidate for needing scoring - but I bet there are fewer dogs elbow scored than hipscored.

I am genuinely curious to find out more about this breed and the thinking behind breeding

I personally don't feel it is ethical to factor in profit when calculating costs - if you are fortunate enough to make a profit and have done everything right - then I personally don't see that as a problem because I know that over several litters you are more likely to lose money than gain it. it is possible that however unpalatable, there are some breeds where certain steps and actions are accepted as the norm - and whilst I don't agree - to considerably underprice pups when you have done everything required can actually prevent pups from being sold - but in the same breath - I would still be looking at pricing at the lower end of the scale from a new pet breeder.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

diablo said:


> ad is still there and totally live , i`d hate to mislead people


Sorry but that must not be my ad you are looking at then 
Mine is down have checked myself through all the pages and it's not there.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

I will check the prices again with the actual Vet, the receptionist isn't very good with reading English and gets things mixed up sometimes. I was also told that the prices included BVA fees, but I don't think they would be with the prices I got.
I'm wanting hip and elbow scores done as the health scheme for the breed (French Bulldog Club of England) recommend hip scores. I'm also doing elbow because the breed can have problems with their joints popping out/slipping.
I have tried to find a Vet who is familiar with the breed or even bulldogs, but haven't found any yet.

We do actually show Juno too, as well as her breeder, she shows all 3 of her bitches. I know it's still pretty early in her show career.
Want to breed to keep a puppy back and eventually establish our own line of healthy frenchies, reducing the folds, health problems, have more with tails, longer snouts to enable better breathing and be able to naturally whelp, without the need for c-sections. This is our aim. Yes I know it will take many years to do this. 
We will (if all *all *health test results are passed) only have 2 litters from her at most.
Also her breeder wants to keep a puppy and we are also giving one to a family member too. Most Frenchies have an average litter size of 4/5. So if we only had a litter of 3 then we wouldn't make anything and would be at a loss. If we make a profit, we will be donating money to where it is needed most, such as sspca, pdsa, fb rescue.

We do want to do it right, what would be the point in breeding if you aren't going to do all you can or even cut corners? Something somewhere would be sure to go wrong if no health tests were done.

I know someone mentioned about rather having people who know the breed as new puppy owners, most people who had contacted me already had Frenchies and a lot had many health problems with their dogs and some even died at very early ages due to health related problems known within the breed. 
I know a lot of breeders of the breed who don't do all they can regarding health tests as the KC only state the tests recommended by them, for the breed, is HC-HSF4.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

love our big babies said:


> Sorry but that must not be my ad you are looking at then
> Mine is down have checked myself through all the pages and it's not there.


it is still very much there it is definitely your ad.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

love our big babies said:


> I have tried to find a Vet who is familiar with the breed or even bulldogs, but haven't found any yet.


bulldog friendly vets.

Motherwell
Brannock Veterinary Clinic 01698 861180

GLASGOW
TAYLOR VETERINARY PRACTICE 0141 638 1606

Edinburgh University of Vet Studies (Dick School) 0131 6507650

Mauchline, Ayrshire David Alexander 01290 550200

Perth Fair City Vet Group 01738 623210

Kirkcaldy, Fife 
Mr & Mrs Gray
Equipet Veterinary Hospital 01592 641333 BBCA

Vets


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

love our big babies said:


> So if we only had a litter of 3 then we wouldn't make anything and would be at a loss. If we make a profit, we will be donating money to where it is needed most, such as sspca, pdsa, fb rescue.


i think what i and others are shocked at is , elsewhere you have posted details of your costings and _profits_



> If she has 5 pups then the cost we will charge would be £1500 per pup (this is the lowest average cost for a Frenchie in the UK, highest is £2500)
> 
> So our profit would be *£788 *per pup and £3940 in total.


now on your ad you state you will be asking £2000 per puppy , in a previous post you state you will be asking £1500 per puppy if she has 5 puppies. *why??* so does that mean you`ll be asking £2000 per pup to account for a smaller litter so you reach the expected target of your _profit margin_ ??
£788 profit per puppy is a ridiculous amount of money by any ones standards , quite frankly the term `barge pole` springs to mind.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

diablo said:


> it is still very much there it is definitely your ad.


Clearly this was needed to prove it is no longer active!!!!!









As for the Vet's you also suggested I have already contacted the ones nearest me and have been told they aren't familiar with French bulldogs, one said they do have 2 English bulldogs who attend their surgery and the other has 3. In their words it doesn't mean they are familiar with the breed and problems related to them.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

love our big babies said:


> Clearly this was needed to prove it is no longer active!!!!!


it is still clearly live.
French Bulldog Waiting List 2013 | Motherwell, Lanarkshire | Pets4Homes

if you have contacted ones as stated on bulldog rescue , then maybe you ought to contact bulldog rescue to tell them this.

you did actually say.


love our big babies said:


> I have tried to find a Vet who is familiar with the breed *or even bulldogs*, but haven't found any yet.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

diablo said:


> i think what i and others are shocked at is , elsewhere you have posted details of your costings and _profits_
> 
> now on your ad you state you will be asking £2000 per puppy , in a previous post you state you will be asking £1500 per puppy if she has 5 puppies. *why??* so does that mean you`ll be asking £2000 per pup to account for a smaller litter so you reach the expected target of your _profit margin_ ??
> £788 profit per puppy is a ridiculous amount of money by any ones standards , quite frankly the term `barge pole` springs to mind.


This has left me MORE than gobsmacked - the costs of breeding Labs are little different to those of this breed - overall, probably around £500/£700 at most (including the vets hyped up costs) - yet the "factored in profit margin" - is over *£150 MORE * than I sell my KC registered microchipped pups from fully health tested parents for 

IMHO you should not go into a litter assuming you will make money - if you are fortunate enough to after doing everything right, then good luck to you.

I had a litter of 6 last time and all in all lost around £1,000 - if my bitch had needed a c-section, then you can easily double that - it's life - money comes from your work / pension, breeding is a hobby to improve your lines and bring pleasure to yourself and others.

As for donating profit to rescue etc, your time and energy would be better spent encouraging people to get their dogs from rescue - even pups costing many hundreds of pounds + end up in rescue when people realise they can't cope - there are many designer cross-breeds living proof of that


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

If you click the link it does actually state that the advert is closed!!!

I have also already contacted the welfare regarding the vets I contacted.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> I will check the prices again with the actual Vet, the receptionist isn't very good with reading English and gets things mixed up sometimes. I was also told that the prices included BVA fees, but I don't think they would be with the prices I got.


What do you mean "with the prices I got?"

The BVA fee isn't paid to the vet, you send a cheque with the plates - however - the prices you have quoted are somewhat higher than the price I pay - what also doesn't make sense is that the elbow plates cost less than hips (unless they are not including GA/sedation costs on the elbow prices).

I think you need to be VERY clear about what they are charging for what and also whether they are respected for taking good plates and also whether they use GA/Sedation - then talk to other people in the breed which method they feel carries the least risk.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

swarthy said:


> This has left me MORE than gobsmacked - the costs of breeding Labs are little different to those of this breed - overall, probably around £500/£700 at most (including the vets hyped up costs) - yet the "factored in profit margin" - is over *£150 MORE * than I sell my KC registered microchipped pups from fully health tested parents for
> 
> IMHO you should not go into a litter assuming you will make money - if you are fortunate enough to after doing everything right, then good luck to you.
> 
> ...


i have just sat down and calculated what the last breeder i went to made / lost on their litter [another breed that commands a high price tag per pup] turns out they , by my own calculations didn`t make one single penny and were actually minus £194.12 of course that wasn`t calculating for everything i only minused off health testing and the emergency c-section that was needed. pups were hand reared too so i suppose they lost hell of a lot more.



love our big babies said:


> If you click the link it does actually state that the advert is closed!!!
> 
> I have also already contacted the welfare regarding the vets I contacted.


there is a big difference to being `taken down` and cancelled , all the info is still there.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

diablo said:


> there is a big difference to being `taken down` and cancelled , all the info is still there.


I clicked the "Remove Advert" option. When I search for it, it doesn't come up.

I never said some breeders end up with a loss  Don't doubt it.
Since there has been a lot of Lab breeding being mentioned and losing so much money, I asked a friend of mine how much "profit" she had after breeding her Lab earlier this year. All health tests done ect, she was left with a "profit" of £3292! She also kept a puppy back.
Also Juno's breeder had a "profit" of £5283 and that was with her keeping a puppy.
I also have a GSD breeder in my family who always runs at a "profit" all health tested too.
All of these were KC reg, microchipped and vaccinated.

Look I totally get what you are all saying. I'm sorry I even posted on here asking advice about waiting lists! A simple "It's a bit too early to be setting one up" would have been enough!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

love our big babies said:


> I clicked the "Remove Advert" option. When I search for it, it doesn't come up.
> 
> I never said some breeders end up with a loss  Don't doubt it.
> Since there has been a lot of Lab breeding being mentioned and losing so much money, I asked a friend of mine how much "profit" she had after breeding her Lab earlier this year. All health tests done ect, she was left with a "profit" of £3292! She also kept a puppy back.
> ...


I cant believe anyone thinks of breeding to turn a profit, really!

If you are in it to profit then you are in to for the wrong reasons and those profits you just quoted do not sit well with me, that is so much.

When you start to profit you then start to cut corners to turn more of a profit and then maybe breed a bit more frequently, that is why the love of the breed and breeding should be the reasons as then the lines are not blurred!


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> I cant believe anyone thinks of breeding to turn a profit, really!
> 
> If you are in it to profit then you are in to for the wrong reasons and those profits you just quoted do not sit well with me, that is so much.
> 
> When you start to profit you then start to cut corners to turn more of a profit and then maybe breed a bit more frequently, that is why the love of the breed and breeding should be the reasons as then the lines are not blurred!


I know the Lab and Frenchie breeders I mentioned only have 2 litters from their bitch and no more, GSD has 3/4.

I'm not cutting corners, I aim to do everything I can and make sure nothing is overlooked/missed out. I would be more looking at what I could put back into my dog/dogs if I turned a profit.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

im not saying you are. yet.

im saying if you start thinking about profit so much then down the line you will start cutting corners to make even more.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

love our big babies said:


> I clicked the "Remove Advert" option. When I search for it, it doesn't come up.
> 
> I never said some breeders end up with a loss  Don't doubt it.
> Since there has been a lot of Lab breeding being mentioned and losing so much money, I asked a friend of mine how much "profit" she had after breeding her Lab earlier this year. All health tests done ect, she was left with a "profit" of £3292! She also kept a puppy back.
> ...


Sorry if it's already been mentioned; how many pups were in junos litter; was it the same litter her breeder ha a keeper from? Was it a big one?
Why are you saying their "profit" and not simply their profit- is there a reason or am I just reading into things wrong?


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

I also wonder if Inland Revenue know about the above-mentioned "profits"!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Tbh, this reads like the op is trying to do the right and ethical thing, but hasn't the best mentor in the world.

OP, maybe you could possibly try finding another experienced FB breeder to assist and guide you, as Juno's breeder doesn't really seem to have the best standards. Money/profit really shouldnt be a consideration imo, yet seems to factor heavily within her breeding programme.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Tbh, this reads like the op is trying to do the right and ethical thing, but hasn't the best mentor in the world.
> 
> OP, maybe you could possibly try finding another experienced FB breeder to assist and guide you, as Juno's breeder doesn't really seem to have the best standards. Money/profit really shouldnt be a consideration imo, yet seems to factor heavily within her breeding programme.


I was thinking the same thing... 
I had the same problem when my mum decided to breed missy; the lady I was looking to for advise was seeming shadier and shadier the more I learned abou her. A few years later I realised she was a definate commercial breeder with slipping standards and now 5 years on and she is pretty much a puppy mill.


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Tbh, this reads like the op is trying to do the right and ethical thing, but hasn't the best mentor in the world.
> 
> OP, maybe you could possibly try finding another experienced FB breeder to assist and guide you, as Juno's breeder doesn't really seem to have the best standards. Money/profit really shouldnt be a consideration imo, yet seems to factor heavily within her breeding programme.


I agree,

I think that the OP is definitely doing things the right way by health testing and Im not one who thinks that dogs have to be shown for them to bred from and have no problem with pet breeders as long as the relevent health tests have been done but I personally dont think that profit should be a factor. I have no doubt that Juno is much loved but it makes me sad that she is only 8 months old and the OP is already talking about making a profit from her ??

My cousin has a Frenchie bitch and thought that at some point in the future she might breed from her but she developed a really bad underbite as she matured so she has had her spayed. I personally am not a fan of the breed, I dont like their squished faces and would not want to be wiping their bums for them after every toileting but thats just my personal opinion !


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

kodakkuki said:


> Sorry if it's already been mentioned; how many pups were in junos litter; was it the same litter her breeder ha a keeper from? Was it a big one?
> Why are you saying their "profit" and not simply their profit- is there a reason or am I just reading into things wrong?


from what i`ve read there were 11 in juno`s litter , breeder charged OP £2200 for juno , yet juno is on a `breeders contract` 

as posted here.



> Juno came from a litter of 11





> We paid £2200 for Juno





> For instance Juno's under a breeders contract, she was and still is the broader bitch out the litter.


hate to say it , breeder saw OP coming!!!!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

kodakkuki said:


> I was thinking the same thing...
> I had the same problem when my mum decided to breed missy; the lady I was looking to for advise was seeming shadier and shadier the more I learned abou her. A few years later I realised she was a definate commercial breeder with slipping standards and now 5 years on and she is pretty much a puppy mill.


This is what i was talking about.

As soon as you start to be breeding for the profit this is where it ends up, it's a slippery slope. You start to think you can make more profit by cutting corners and not doing as much to ensure the health as before.


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

diablo said:


> from what i`ve read there were 11 in juno`s litter , breeder charged OP £2200 for juno , yet juno is on a `breeders contract` :


OMG! Thats more than I make in a year !

What is a "breeders contract"? Am I right in thinking that you are sold the dog on condition that you breed from it and then the original breeder gets a puppy back ?


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

Izzysmummy said:


> OMG! Thats more than I make in a year !
> 
> What is a "breeders contract"? Am I right in thinking that you are sold the dog on condition that you breed from it and then the original breeder gets a puppy back ?


i have no idea!! but what i`ve never ever heard of is a breeder charging FULL price for their pup and letting that pup go on a `breeding contract` i were so gobsmacked about that i had to check!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

i personally would never want a bitch on breeding terms. my dog is my own and i do not wish to be told i have to breed from it.

what i do not understand is if your breeder kept a puppy back why sell one on breeding terms!

this is usually done when the breeder is not keeping any of the litter and if i am not wrong usually to another breeder too.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> i personally would never want a bitch on breeding terms. my dog is my own and i do not wish to be told i have to breed from it.
> 
> what i do not understand is if your breeder kept a puppy back why sell one on breeding terms!
> 
> this is usually done when the breeder is not keeping any of the litter and if i am not wrong usually to another breeder too.


exactly!
also why would you pay FULL price [the TOP end price] for a dog for the breeder to dictate what you do with said puppy??
if i paid that and the breeder still expected `breeding terms` i`d be telling them to shove right off!!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

diablo said:


> exactly!
> also why would you pay FULL price [the TOP end price] for a dog for the breeder to dictate what you do with said puppy??
> if i paid that and the breeder still expected `breeding terms` i`d be telling them to shove right off!!


I think i am right in thinking that the puppy is usually less, if not free as you will be footing the bill for the pups.

From what i have seen and heard they do not always end well, people dont want to give the puppy over, sometimes the mother has one puppy and it ends in tears.

I really would like the op to explain her breeding terms with her breeder as it seems very strange to me to pay all of this money for tests and the full price of the puppy for a 'breeding terms' bitch. is she truly on these terms with the breeder.

usually breeders use it to pass on their lines when they are not capable of keeping on a puppy themselves.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> I think i am right in thinking that the puppy is usually less, if not free as you will be footing the bill for the pups.
> 
> From what i have seen and heard they do not always end well, people dont want to give the puppy over, sometimes the mother has one puppy and it ends in tears.
> 
> ...


i really have no idea how terms work which is why i questioned it last night , i were told it wasn`t right and bitches are either offered at a reduced rate or free when on terms.
seems to me this is a breeder with a few fingers in a few pies if you ask me! it certainly is asking a lot to expect a buyer to pay full price for a pup then to dictate it has to be on terms , seems like a win win for the breeder and loose for the buyer!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> i personally would never want a bitch on breeding terms. my dog is my own and i do not wish to be told i have to breed from it.
> 
> what i do not understand is if your breeder kept a puppy back why sell one on breeding terms!
> 
> this is usually done when the breeder is not keeping any of the litter and if i am not wrong usually to another breeder too.


IME, it's not uncommon for newbie exhibitors / prospective breeders to take a pup on breeding terms - usually pups with great potential, offering their owners a good introduction to the showring, and of course a mentor to guide them through everything.

Before we got our eldest showbred bitch, I was offered an older health-tested girl, but turned it down, for similar reasons already cited. My OH was particularly uncomfortable about having responsibility for a dog that didn't wholly belong to us.

I have a bitch in shared ownership with a friend in France, she started showing her with the long term intention being to mate her with a dog out there and bring a pup back - sadly, my friends health meant she had to give up showing, and breeding was also out of the question.

The bitch has a fantastic life, with 4 acres of garden and a full size pool (and other doggies) - I also ran a bitch on. I didn't charge the owner (although they had costs coming to the UK to collecct her) - she did offer her back when her health deteriorated, but I declined as her owners were very kind to me when I needed a friend, plus, it would have been unfair to uproot her from her idyllic lifestyle.

If there are multiple pups in a litter with show potential that could go to new show-homes possibly on breeding terms, I don't personally consider this a bad thing - even if the breeder has kept one or more pups from a litter - and increasingly in Labs many established (and some new) breeders are seeing several pups in each litter with show potential and you don't have to look very far to find them.

In an ideal world, we would all be able to keep two or more pups with show potential, sadly, this presents many challenges - for small scale breeders without the capacity to keep more than one pup, breeding terms offers additional options.

=============================

Breeding terms can take many different forms, from paying a reduced price and the breeder paying the health tests and stud fees to bitch's returning to breeders to have their pups back, and pretty much everything inbetween.

I'm not convinced I would be paying full-price if I then had to cover all the health-testing and litter costs and give a pup back  in that instance, I would rather just buy a pup.

===========

I have been stung on a breeding contract and wouldn't do it again, but I can understand the appeal for some people.


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

I was once offered a Dane bitch on breeding terms, i went to see her and the breeder said i could have her at a much reduced price. 
I walked away. The woman was a merchant. 

Im guessing the breeder will want to choose the stud dog too then? they usually do on these terms, and no ive never heard of a bitch going on breeding terms and still being full price! (or over full price in this case...) 

So the dogs not the op's then? if its on terms? if the paperwork is still in breeders name and you've paid fover ull price that is absolutely mad. 

Excuse me if im wrong thats how it sounds.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> I clicked the "Remove Advert" option. When I search for it, it doesn't come up.
> 
> I never said some breeders end up with a loss  Don't doubt it.
> Since there has been a lot of Lab breeding being mentioned and losing so much money, I asked a friend of mine how much "profit" she had after breeding her Lab earlier this year. All health tests done ect, she was left with a "profit" of £3292! She also kept a puppy back.


I would LOVE to know her secret  my last litter - total revenue was *£2750* *over £500 less than your friend made in profit *

The revenue on my first litter was £3,000 and my 2nd litter £3,350.

I made a significant loss on my first litter, small profit on my second litter and a loss of over £1K on the third litter - I just about broke even over the three litters (and of course had to pay tax on the small profit from the 2nd litter)

I would LOVE To have a breakdown of her costs - you are telling me she


Hipscored
Elbow scored
PRA tested
Annual eye certificates
CNM tested
Colour coat tested

Paid £450/£500 for the stud dog plus travel

Used pre-mate testing, scans, KC registration, worming and microchipping

Spent around £100 a week feeding her pups - not to mention bedding, whelping box, puppy pens, puppy toys etc

Lets ADD the cost of all the above to the £3,292 PROFIT that she made 

==============================

I haven't made that much REVENUE on two of my litters, and just over £50 more on the other one, never mind profit 

===============

*I have just calculated that on an average litter size with one keeper, I would have to sell the pups for £941 each to make that level of profit.* and that's assuming there are no unexpected eventualities.

Considering the going rate is £550 to £700 from even the creme de la creme kennels - I just don't buy it


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

swarthy said:


> I would LOVE to know her secret  my last litter - total revenue was *£2750* *over £500 less than your friend made in profit *
> 
> The revenue on my first litter was £3,000 and my 2nd litter £3,350.
> 
> ...


I just dont see how you can spend £100 a week on food  I have seen you say it before but it seems an amazing amount. When I had a litter from my standard poodle, 8 pups, I doubt if I spent £100 extra for the whole pregnancy and rearing the pups, in fact I doubt if I spent £50. And the pups were very well fed and the bitch was in perfect condition.

I had a sheltie bitch on breeding terms. No way could I raise the capital to buy a pup so I was offered a 5 month pup at about a third of the price and had to give 2 pups from the first litter back. We neither did very well out of it but I had a lot of fun. There were only 2 pups and both were very large dog pups so the breeder ended up with 2 pet pups and I ended up with nothing.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

I called the breeder last night after reading about how breeding terms usually are, so basicly she has offered to either pay for health tests or the stud dog?
Our names are both on the contract as joint ownership and she has said I can remove her if I wish, after a pup?
At first she wanted £1900 and to have her back once her 2nd season came, I said no I wasn't paying that kind of money to give her back. Told her we wanted to show her and she then wanted for £2200 for her and we wouldn't have to give her back but to have a litter and hand a pup back.

She wanted to keep Juno and her sister, but didn't have the room to keep both, since then she has built an extension and got another 2! 

I think I'll be approaching another breeder for advice. Don't think Juno's breeder is the best one, considering after speaking with her last night she said I should really be breeding her on her 2nd season!! Juno has already had her first on a few months ago! Her next one should be due around end of November when she is 1.

On top of that she is very adamant that the price we should be charging is £2000! I know I have suggested £1500, but she wasn't happy at that either. To be honest we would be happy if the price was £1000.
Surely she can't dictate as to what price we will sell?

Another question.....
Is the contract I signed legally binding?
I mean if I chose not to breed her could I do that?



Swarthy: I honestly couldn't tell you her break down, but I know she had, what I think is an unusually high litter of 11. I know she had hip and elbow scores done and eye tests, but that's it. She also owns the stud dog.
All puppy's were yellow, mum and dad also yellow. She sold puppy's at £650/£675


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

tbh it will all be in the contract you signed before so i dont know why you called for details and it cant be arranged or changed now surely.

she cant now state what she wants. if your dog is on breeding terms then you should alredy know what they are.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I just dont see how you can spend £100 a week on food  I have seen you say it before but it seems an amazing amount. When I had a litter from my standard poodle, 8 pups, I doubt if I spent £100 extra for the whole pregnancy and rearing the pups, in fact I doubt if I spent £50. And the pups were very well fed and the bitch was in perfect condition.
> 
> I had a sheltie bitch on breeding terms. No way could I raise the capital to buy a pup so I was offered a 5 month pup at about a third of the price and had to give 2 pups from the first litter back. We neither did very well out of it but I had a lot of fun. There were only 2 pups and both were very large dog pups so the breeder ended up with 2 pet pups and I ended up with nothing.


In addition to around 1kg of kibble a day - my bitches then my pups have ambrosia rice pudding (at the height - it is not unusual for us to be getting through *8 cans a day*) - a whole chicken every day and I also add oily fish and beef to their food but not daily. I continue to feed mum up beyond her finishing feeding - my last bitch was back to her pre-pregnancy condition at just 12 weeks.

I switch my bitch to a premium food when looking to mate her and then over to the same brand puppy food at 6/7 weeks - but the time she is 8/9 weeks pregnant, she will be on 7 meals a day - I take no account of the costs of this - but even that isn't cheap - I get through at least 3 15kg bags before I switch over to puppy food.

Once the bitch whelps, she then continues to given as much as she can to eat plus lactol gold, goats milk, natural yogurt if required plus back to the whole chicken per day.

My last litter produced 7 x 21oz pups - pretty unusual for Labs.

I really don't know how you can feed a bitch then a litter good quality food and not spend £100 - a 15kg bag of food (just under £50) lasts me just two weeks with a feeding bitch - and I don't intend to change anything in the future.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> I called the breeder last night after reading about how breeding terms usually are, so basicly she has offered to either pay for health tests or the stud dog?
> Our names are both on the contract as joint ownership and she has said I can remove her if I wish, after a pup?
> At first she wanted £1900 and to have her back once her 2nd season came, I said no I wasn't paying that kind of money to give her back. Told her we wanted to show her and she then wanted for £2200 for her and we wouldn't have to give her back but to have a litter and hand a pup back.
> 
> ...


I am really glad you are taking on board what people are saying (it's rare on this site  )

Everything with regards to the breeding contract should have been laid out and the terms agreed - it does feel a bit like your naivety has been exploited and all you can do is learn from this.

As for whether it is legally binding, technically EVERY contract is legally binding until a court deems otherwise (or a case is to weak - the terms get pulled to pieces before it reaches the court). Contracts don't need to be in writing, they can be written on the back of a *** packet is so required - but obviously in writing is better as you are not into this, "he said, she said"

As above, she has now changed the terms of the contract - so your original breeding contract is null and void - maybe now is the time to start negotiating and getting it all in writing.

I do hope you manage to get things sorted,


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

All it says is upon signing you understand said bitch is sold on breeding terms. This means said bitch must whelp at least one litter and breeder (her name here) can have pick of the litter to return with them. If more than one puppy is chosen a fee must be exchanged.
Stud dog must be mutually agreed upon.
Said bitch must be feed high quality food and proof of purchase is required.

Termination can only take place where said bitch is unfit, fails health tests or of unsound temperment.

Obviously I realise how daft I was for asking! 
But at least I can stand my ground about what price to sell at.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

I think I will arrange a day to go see her and write up a new contract so everything is clear. Nowhere on the contract does it say she can dictate as to when she is to be bred or anything about price or even what tests should be carried out.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> All it says is upon signing you understand said bitch is sold on breeding terms. This means said bitch must whelp at least one litter and breeder (her name here) can have pick of the litter to return with them. If more than one puppy is chosen a fee must be exchanged.
> Stud dog must be mutually agreed upon.
> Said bitch must be feed high quality food and proof of purchase is required.
> 
> ...


I think you have to know your market and set a price which sits comfortably in there - if you do undersell it can actually make people ignore you.

I wouldn't be going top end - but don't go bottom end either - I've seen some nice litters around the £1400 per pup (which I still think is ridiculous personally, but that's what they are selling for).

When the time is right, try to decide on a price and stick with it, regardless of whether the pup is male or female, whether it is going as a pet or show-dog

Establish yourself as a responsible and ethical breeder.

Everyone makes mistakes, all we can do is learn from them and try not to repeat them.

I have a friend who bought her Lab pup from very nice breeding - it was only when she came to ask for the breeding endorsements to be lifted having done just about every health test under the sun, passing them all with flying colours, that the breeder told her she charged the price of a pup to lift them 

Needless to say, she won't touch an endorsed pup now, and even though I endorse mine, I can totally see where she is coming from.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I think legally you are only required to stick with what is in the contract.

She cannot make you mate juno early as it doesnt say the breeder can choose the time of the litter. I would either draw up a new one or say you are sticking to the terms of the old one.

Did you go out looking for a breeding bitch or a pet? Just a personal opinion of course but i would never go near a breeding terms contract.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> I think legally you are only required to stick with what is in the contract.
> 
> She cannot make you mate juno early as it doesnt say the breeder can choose the time of the litter. I would either draw up a new one or say you are sticking to the terms of the old one.
> 
> Did you go out looking for a breeding bitch or a pet? Just a personal opinion of course but i would never go near a breeding terms contract.


No - neither would I 

OP - you are where you are now - you really don't want to fall out with your girls breeder even if you don't particularly agree with what they are saying unless you are prepared for them to take it further (it's unlikely they will, but they could - then it would be up to the courts to decide whether the contract terms were reasonable or not - that's going to cost money and as a new exhibitor, probably exactly what you don't need,

Having said all that, you do need to know where you stand and if you buy pups in future, possibly stick to buying them outright


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

love our big babies said:


> I called the breeder last night after reading about how breeding terms usually are, so basicly she has offered to either pay for health tests or the stud dog?
> Our names are both on the contract as joint ownership and she has said I can remove her if I wish, after a pup?
> At first she wanted £1900 and to have her back once her 2nd season came, I said no I wasn't paying that kind of money to give her back. Told her we wanted to show her and she then wanted for £2200 for her and we wouldn't have to give her back but to have a litter and hand a pup back.
> 
> ...





love our big babies said:


> All it says is upon signing you understand said bitch is sold on breeding terms. This means said bitch must whelp at least one litter and breeder (her name here) can have pick of the litter to return with them. If more than one puppy is chosen a fee must be exchanged.
> Stud dog must be mutually agreed upon.
> Said bitch must be feed high quality food and proof of purchase is required.
> 
> ...


Well done for taking on board what others have said. Unfortunately it looks like Juno's breeder's taken advantage of your lack of knowledge to get you to agree to the breeding terms.

I am a bit confused as to the price you paid for your pup if there was a litter of 11 and the others all went for 1/3 of the amount that you paid yet the girl you have is on breeding terms. Also Im not sure why the price would change just because you were interested in showing, but Im unfamiliar with showing and if this is standard practise, although I would guess it isnt!?

If she is joint owner Im not sure what rights she will have with regards to setting the price of the pups, also she is likely to be able to request half the money you take for the pups but at the same time she should pay half of all health costs until you are sole owner including back dating for vaccinations any vet visits etc, plus half of the stud costs, health tests, feed, emergency c-section if needed etc.

TBH honest if it is a situation you are really not happy with you could maybe speak to your vet and have her declared unfit for breeding and get her spayed which would get you out of any contract you have !


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2012)

how about this for a contract.

she is YOUR dog because you paid FULL [top end price for your puppy].
you dictate the terms she is bred under.
breeder don`t get a pup back.
you choose your OWN stud under the guidance of someone else.
the end.

though with a breeder operating like this , i would seriously rethink breeding her at all , you only have your pups breeders say so that your pup is a breeding worthy quality dog. if you still want to breed her i`d get the pup appraised and looked over by someone else in the breed and seek their opinion.
i would think very carefully regarding rewriting the contract and letting her refund you half the price of your pup or anything else she offers , that way still gives her a leg to stand on! as it stands at the moment i doubt she`d win if she were cheeky enough to try in court considering the amount you paid for her and the terms she had you agree under , you could well prove her to be downright unethical , especially as to regards her saying you should breed her at a year old!! plus if it`s likely your not going to reach an agreement , she currently is jointly owned , she may not allow you to register the pups with the KC , so breeding her anyway would have been a pointless effort as it will be a situation where she is still dictating the terms!!

what a tricky situation.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

diablo said:


> how about this for a contract.
> 
> she is YOUR dog because you paid FULL [top end price for your puppy].
> you dictate the terms she is bred under.
> ...


Yes - another question to ask - does the bitch currenty have endorsements on her KC registration?

Diablo - pretty sure the OP did say they show, so would have a handle on others views of the dog


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2012)

swarthy said:


> Yes - another question to ask - does the bitch currenty have endorsements on her KC registration?
> 
> Diablo - pretty sure the OP did say they show, so would have a handle on others views of the dog


also , just thought! whose names are on the `registered` owners details with the kc  ?? i`m assuming still the breeders being as they`ve laid out all those terms in a breeding contract 
i really hope this isn`t the case , for the sake of the op


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

diablo said:


> also , just thought! whose names are on the `registered` owners details with the kc  ?? i`m assuming still the breeders being as they`ve laid out all those terms in a breeding contract
> i really hope this isn`t the case , for the sake of the op


I think she said they were in "joint names" - the same as my bitch who went in shared ownership - but regardless, the breeder still holds the upper hand regards to any endorsements etc

I am really not certain what the implications of shared ownership actually means if the owners fall out


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2012)

swarthy said:


> I think she said they were in "joint names" - the same as my bitch who went in shared ownership - but regardless, the breeder still holds the upper hand regards to any endorsements etc
> 
> I am really not certain what the implications of shared ownership actually means if the owners fall out


after doing a quick google search on people that have gone into `joint ownership` where breeding is concerned , quite a few have commented on the breeder having 'kc ownership' of said dog until a litter is produced
from what i`ve just read elsewhere , the breeder could possibly have the OP literally by the balls because everyone was happy at the time of the pups purchase and everything was agreed to  so unless OP has bitch deemed unfit for breeding or whatever , right now seems the breeder may have the upper hand where breach of contract could be concerned.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2012)

found this on the french bulldog uk club site



> *A little about joint ownership:*
> 
> This means you and the breeder would both own him or her. Joint-ownership's are good and bad. Make sure you have a contract and ask a lot of questions, put it in BLACK AND WHITE. Know your breeder and make sure you want to deal with this person for the life for your French Bulldog. You may be required to breed the dog, or let the breeder do it. You may have to breed her once or twice and give the breeder a puppy(ies), or you have to provide free stud service for the breeders bitches. Do not enter into a joint-ownership if you think you may change your mind about what you agreed to in the beginning, the breeder may not be understanding If you can't breed or show him or her you may have to send him or her to the breeder, do you want to lose the dog for weeks or months? What if he/she develops a problem or an unsuitable temperament for breeding? These questions should be addressed and put in the contract before the dog leaves for his or her new home. Think very carefully before joint-owning a dog, put it in black and white.


Buying a Frenchie Puppy

even they by the sounds of it dont advise that you do it!


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

I really wasn't too clued up about breeding terms or joint ownership as we weren't really looking for that to be honest. Was kind of sprung on us once we had said we wanted to show her. Suppose it's my own daft fault for not looking into the possibility of being on breeding terms.
Both names are on the KC documents but only our address is on it. She wasn't endorsed but if we do breed her, we will be placing them on each puppy until appropriate age and health tests completed and passed, although I'm not completely sure how the breeder will take this.

Yes she was from a litter of 11, 4 boys 7 girls, boys were priced around £1700 and girls were £1900, we paid £2200 and I now know another girl pup was sold for £2200, they are also showing theirs. I don't know if they are in as much of a pickle as us though 
I've wanted a Frenchie since I was little and it took about a year to save up for our girl.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> I really wasn't too clued up about breeding terms or joint ownership as we weren't really looking for that to be honest. Was kind of sprung on us once we had said we wanted to show her. Suppose it's my own daft fault for not looking into the possibility of being on breeding terms.
> Both names are on the KC documents but only our address is on it. She wasn't endorsed but if we do breed her, we will be placing them on each puppy until appropriate age and health tests completed and passed, although I'm not completely sure how the breeder will take this.
> 
> Yes she was from a litter of 11, 4 boys 7 girls, boys were priced around £1700 and girls were £1900, we paid £2200 and I now know another girl pup was sold for £2200, they are also showing theirs. I don't know if they are in as much of a pickle as us though
> I've wanted a Frenchie since I was little and it took about a year to save up for our girl.


Unfortunately, when you want something so much, it is easy to be swept along with the tide - and I know all too well how appealing breeding terms can seem at the time - I was offered with it before we collected my first showgirl - luckily in some ways my OH was with me - and the idea didn't appeal to him - not because of the risk of being "caught out" - I don't think that even entered our heads at the time - but because he felt we would be living on our nerves all the time because the dog wasn't "truly ours".

I did however get involved in a BC - to show and breed a bitch - let's just say it left a bitter taste in my mouth - I wouldn't do it again - but I possibly would put a bitch out myself on breeding terms if the circumstances were right -

I've learnt enough to ensure that the contract was fair and clear to both sides so we knew exactly where we stood - would there be a charge - possibly a notional one, I can't say I've actively thought it through until such an opportunity arises.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Yes she was from a litter of 11, 4 boys 7 girls, boys were priced around £1700 and girls were £1900, we paid £2200 and I now know another girl pup was sold for £2200, they are also showing theirs. I don't know if they are in as much of a pickle as us though


So you paid MORE for a pup on breeding terms 
I honestly don't know how this works as it's something I'd never do, and from what I've heard it varies, but generally a pup on breeding terms is less than the standard price because you have to invest in the litter.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2012)

love our big babies said:


> Yes she was from a litter of 11, 4 boys 7 girls, boys were priced around £1700 and girls were £1900, we paid £2200 and I now know another girl pup was sold for £2200, they are also showing theirs. I don't know if they are in as much of a pickle as us though
> I've wanted a Frenchie since I was little and it took about a year to save up for our girl.


how on earth can she justify charging £1900 on some of the girls and £2200 on the others  beggars belief how can they turn round and say `well this one is better than that one` so i`ll charge more money  which is in effect what the breeder has done , when dogs are so young you really can`t tell how they`ll turn out , how they will mature etc etc but as a breeder , as a good breeder , you never ever admit or put it across that `this pup is better than that pup` because all your doing is proving your not professional , i`m sure all breeders have their favorites but those poor pups sound as if they were sold like they were a bunch of duds  
hate to say it , you really have been taken advantage of , they don`t sound like best , most trustworthy breeders out there [sound like one of the worst and one i certainly would avoid at all costs] right now i`d be doing literally anything [if was me would probably spay the dog , easy to fib saying she needed it doing on medical grounds or whatever] to get out of said contract , take the hit , have her as a pet and move on!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> So you paid MORE for a pup on breeding terms
> I honestly don't know how this works as it's something I'd never do, and from what I've heard it varies, but generally a pup on breeding terms is less than the standard price because you have to invest in the litter.


I know  it doesn't really make sense does it?

The way I would see it working is that you would give someone the bitch, the owner pay for the health-tests and the breeder pay for the stud dog and take a pup back (if they wanted to)

or alternatively

Pay a sum below what the other pups are selling for and the breeder pay the health tests and for the stud dog and of course the option to take a pup back.

I did consider it at one point, and it was suggested to me that I give the owner the bitch, pay for all the health-tests, select and pay for the stud dog, have the choice to take two pups back and that would be the end of the agreement.

As I think I said earlier in the thread, some breeders do take the bitch back for whelping and raising the litter.

It didn't happen, but whilst the owner has the pleasure of living with the dog so I feel should endure the day to day costs of keeping the dog, I don't think they should be out of pocket on the litter.

It still however can be a good way of someone getting into a breed / showing particularly in numerically smaller breeds - but I think the terms have to be water-tight so that neither party starts quickly regretting it,

A lot of the above is supposition, but I really can't get my head around paying MORE for the pup and having to meet the costs of health-testing and the stud and then have someone else take pick of the litter


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

We did visit 12 different litters before settling on Juno, but everyone we visited had various prices depending on gender and colouring of each puppy. So I think it is very common in this breed in particular for things like this. I've even seen ones who sell boys for £800 and girls for £2000!

ATM I'm writing up a draft of what I think would be acceptable and agreeable, including either refunding at least half of the sale price or changing ownership so she is fully mine and not joint.
Any advice as to what else I could put in it??


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2012)

love our big babies said:


> We did visit 12 different litters before settling on Juno, but everyone we visited had various prices depending on gender and colouring of each puppy. So I think it is very common in this breed in particular for things like this. I've even seen ones who sell boys for £800 and girls for £2000!
> 
> ATM I'm writing up a draft of what I think would be acceptable and agreeable, including either refunding at least half of the sale price or changing ownership so she is fully mine and not joint.
> Any advice as to what else I could put in it??


just because someone is asking the highest price dont necessarily mean they are going to get it top breeder currently asking considerable amount less than that , in fact several are most of the dogs are bitches - all about knowing where to look.

at the end of the day i think your going to have to tread very carefully where this contract is concerned going by what i have read on other websites from people with experience of doing these things. to change the ownership of the dog is something the breeder of your dog is going to have to agree to [can`t see it happening] the likelyhood of you getting any monies actually back are probably very slim being as everything was agreed to the first time around , especially if the breeder has the slightest sniff of you ever taking a litter from her , things are probably about to become very messy!


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

What's causing me concern is the fact you have paid full price for a puppy but the breeder still gets to dictate to you what stud you use and you still have to give her a puppy.....

From what I understand normally with breeding contracts the puppy is usually free or lower in price than full purchase price because the breeder wants a keep back from the litter the puppy has. 

It sounds like your breeder wants her finger in every pie. :glare:

You have paid in full for the dog, you should be able to decide if you want to breed her and if you do who to, it shouldn't be the breeder choice if you have paid for her in full. 

Do you have a copy of the contract you signed? If so were exactly do you stand?


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2012)

shetlandlover said:


> What's causing me concern is the fact you have paid full price for a puppy but the breeder still gets to dictate to you what stud you use and you still have to give her a puppy.....
> 
> From what I understand normally with breeding contracts the puppy is usually free or lower in price than full purchase price because the breeder wants a keep back from the litter the puppy has.
> 
> ...


exactly! i think if i were in the OP`s position i`d be on the phone to Trevor cooper , not trying to re-negotiate the terms of a contract with a money grabbing breeder!
Doglaw - Disputes between buyers and sellers


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> We did visit 12 different litters before settling on Juno, but everyone we visited had various prices depending on gender and colouring of each puppy. So I think it is very common in this breed in particular for things like this. I've even seen ones who sell boys for £800 and girls for £2000!


   £1,200 difference between dogs and bitches


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> Swarthy: I honestly couldn't tell you her break down, but I know she had, what I think is an unusually high litter of 11. I know she had hip and elbow scores done and eye tests, but that's it. She also owns the stud dog.
> All puppy's were yellow, mum and dad also yellow. She sold puppy's at £650/£675


So neither parent was PRA tested (the condition can cause total blindness)?

As all the pups made it out of the litter, at least one of them must have been clear for CNM.

Presumably the stud dog was health-tested? Or have his expenses already been covered by other stud work?

Why did she sell the pups for different prices 

As she had no stud dog expenses and probably didn't use pre-mate testing and didn't do any DNA testing or coat colour testing, she has saved herself a £1,000 at the outset - so yes, she would make a profit as it sounds like few feed the same way I do - she presumably didn't microchip them either.

I'm beginning to think I'm the one with mug stamped on my forehead


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2012)

swarthy said:


> I'm beginning to think I'm the one with mug stamped on my forehead


i really don`t think so! at least you can sleep soundly at night and know your conscience is completely clear


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I think your girls breeder is greedy and unethical on many levels. She obviously considers herself to be a somebody in the showing/breeding world. I would tell her the contract needs to be renegotiated and revised. If she refuses I would refuse to breed the dog. Keep correspondence where she is encouraging you to breed the girl at a younger age than is safe/recommended. If she values her reputation (assuming she has a good one in the light of the high charges for her puppies) she will likely be a little more reasonable. The high price you paid for puppy that you have little legal control over is ridiculous.

Also be careful about what you say about such a breeder on the internet. The web is a small world and news travels very fast. The next thing she'll be threatening to sue for libel. Some breeders heads are so far up their backsides that they lose touch with reality unfortunately. It sounds like you havd been a bit naive. Get the contract sorted before you breed your girl. good luck x


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

TBH if I were in your situation I would not want to have any ties with this breeder and would just enjoy Juno as a pet and learn from this experience in the future if you do decide to go down the breeding route and take on another bitch.

I'm not sure how much you've said to the breeder so far about the contract but maybe play it cool so you don't arouse suspicion then in a few months time there may be an "emergency" condition requiring her to be spayed ?


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

So for the past hour I have been on the phone to the breeder discussing all the new in's and out's of the new contract, she actually had no problem with a new contract being wrote up (thankfully). I'll be down at some point later in the week to look over and for us both to sign. (my week just keeps getting worse )

So we have agreed the price we paid was ridiculous and she shouldn't have taken advantage and explained absolutely everything concerning the breeding terms. 
She has now said she will either give us a puppy from her next litter, refund money or pay for the stud dog services and scans to confirm in whelp.
She agrees that as Juno lives with us, we should decide when she is mature and ready to breed (spoke to a good breeder of frenchies who has met Juno. In her personal opinion, the way she is developing and as long as she continues this way, would make a good candidate for the breed. Even though she is still a puppy, she is very relaxed and calm, which she says is fantastic! This particular breeder even gave me advice as to what to look for in the lines of a stud dog to keep the fawn colouring. Juno is very light and this is due to having a lot of pied in her lines)
We have agreed that only one puppy will be given back to her from the first litter and no more, also once this has taken place I will be sole owner and can spay her if I wish. 
Have stated that she can have no input as to what price we choose to sell at and she cannot demand full rights to the litter or any money from the sale of puppies.
We can choose the Stud dog and ask her advice and opinion on his lines and health test results. 

The next time we buy a puppy I will definitely be buying out right. Won't be making this mistake again. 


I think I will take chichi's advice and say no more about the breeder 

Thanks everyone for all advice, opinions and help. Much appreciated and hopefully I can get this sorted quickly  
Can't believe how naive I have been with this whole breeding terms thing. Feel pretty silly about it tbh :blushing:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

love our big babies said:


> So for the past hour I have been on the phone to the breeder discussing all the new in's and out's of the new contract, she actually had no problem with a new contract being wrote up (thankfully). I'll be down at some point later in the week to look over and for us both to sign. (my week just keeps getting worse )
> 
> So we have agreed the price we paid was ridiculous and she shouldn't have taken advantage and explained absolutely everything concerning the breeding terms.
> She has now said she will either give us a puppy from her next litter, refund money or pay for the stud dog services and scans to confirm in whelp.
> ...


Dont feel silly. You are probably a genuine person and have just let this person lead you on a very unreasonable path. You are not the bad person here so dont worry.

Now you need to make notes of exactly what you want from this revised contract and dont allow yourself to be swayed to agree otherwise. You need to keep your wits about you when you meet up.

Good luck


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> Thanks everyone for all advice, opinions and help. Much appreciated and hopefully I can get this sorted quickly
> Can't believe how naive I have been with this whole breeding terms thing. Feel pretty silly about it tbh :blushing:


Don't feel silly - we all have to learn; many of us who've responded on this thread are hobby breeders ourselves, and whilst we all had similar ideas on how breeding contracts worked, most of us didn't have a full insight.

You've had quite a hard time on this thread at times (I include myself in that) and all credit to you for sticking with it, you've changed your plans somewhat and also challenged your breeder, and it seems, been able to work it out amicably.

All too often, if posters don't get the responses they want, they will go off in a huff.

If you are going to review the contract - ensure you are happy with all the terms and conditions before you sign anything. - hopefully it sounds like you are going to be able to work it out.


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## Bullymastiff (May 6, 2010)

Dont feel silly, we all make mistakes concerning breeders and dogs when starting out. The breeder is a disgrace for taking advantage the way she did. 
shes obviously all about money sadly alot are 

Your doing what you can now to put things right, and hopefully you have learnt how things are not done! 

Breeding terms are nearly always a very bad idea. Even if you know the person well it can turn into a nightmare. Always buy your pup out right. 

i would be requesting her name be taken off the papers and the contract void. the price you paid that dog should be yours and yours alone. 
what an a**hole


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Just an update to let you all know we now have everything worked out 

Juno is fully mine  and I can decide what I do and when. 
The breeder will be there for advice and support whenever needed. 

Only thing we haven't yet agreed on:
She may not take a puppy from the first litter now though, as she suggested we give her a pup and she gives us one from Juno's sisters litter. Wasn't on board with this after all that has happened, but did say I was more than happy to give her pick of the litter, as was agreed before, but she shall see 
So the part about returning a puppy isn't in the new contract.

Thank you all once again for all the advice and support


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> Just an update to let you all know we now have everything worked out
> 
> Juno is fully mine  and I can decide what I do and when.
> The breeder will be there for advice and support whenever needed.
> ...


Really glad you have managed to sort things out very much to yours and Juno's advantage by the sounds of it 

Good luck with all the health-tests


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

All's well that ends well

Really glad that you got everything sorted out. I think the Breeder wanted her cake and eat it but at least after being challenged has done the right thing. I think that some people are just a little greedy by nature and need a point in the right direction sometimes Well done for sticking to your guns on this!

I think the thread has been a great source of information for anyone thinking of taking a puppy on breeding terms. Not something to be entered into lightly, unless you can 1 million per cent trust the breeder.


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## cavmad (Jan 27, 2009)

Well done for getting the contract changed you did better than i did. I was offered a bitch years ago of my dream breed . A friend bred them and said i could have the bitch on breeding terms as i couldnt afford the price of the pup. I worked in kennels so the food was paid for and the vet fees were at cost so i agreed. When Tasha grew up i didnt think her temperment was good enough so i got the vet to ring my friend and say that Tasha had a pyo and had to be spayed asap which she obviously agreed to so problem was solved. Your way is much better i think


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Just wanted to say that Juno's face is one of the cutest faces I have ever seen on a dog!!! If you do go ahead and breed her in the future, please be sure to post puppy photographs, as I expect they will be so bloomin' cute


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Swarthy I forgot to mention that I have also changed vets and their prices are so much better. 190 for elbows and 150 for hips but would give discount with them being done at the same tme. Think its around 90 for the joint hip and elbow scoring with bva. 
New vet is so much more helpful than the last


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## Doll (Jan 21, 2012)

Here hip and elbows are done together so works out cheaper of course. Most dogs have this done together anyways and chipping as well if not done as a pup. 

Good luck with Juno and hope all the health tests are good for her.


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