# devastating news about my girl :(



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I just took my baby to the emerge vets I was worried about her calling As I phoned them and took her right in.

They decided to do a scan on her and the babies are dead   

She needs to be spayed tom and her womb taken away.

I am So devastated it is unreal I cant even speak :frown:

We are going to retire and re home her next week. 
I cant believe this happened


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2009)

Im so sorry to hear this...how awful.


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## Midnight (Jan 17, 2009)

So sorry .....


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

I'm so sorry this ha happened you must be devastated


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

I am so sorry Taylorbaby, right now you are in shock,maybe after a few days you may feel you want to keep her as a much loved pet. I can understand as a breeder you don't want to keep neuters it just seems so sad to me.

Izzie


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Im so sorry..... it must hurt so much lossing them cant you keep her though rather then rehome her as she is gonna be feeling so down herself.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Why does she have to be spayed ? If she has had healthy litters before, there's no reason just because this pregnancy didn't work that the next one won't. Surely if they want to remove the dead babies via surgery, and personally I would wait until her due date as she still may pass them naturally, unless they suspect infection, its no different from a caesar.

Also why rehome her just because she is spayed ? Isn't she a much loved pet first and foremost ?


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

I agree, it shouldn't be necessary to spay. There may be some infection, which should clear up with antibiotics, but if it is absolutely necessary to spay then I certainly wouldn't rush to rehome her within a week - she needs t recover properly first. When I rehome a cat (I can't possibly keep every ex-breeding cat!) I always wait at least 2-3 weeks after neutering.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Why does she have to be spayed ? If she has had healthy litters before, there's no reason just because this pregnancy didn't work that the next one won't. Surely if they want to remove the dead babies via surgery, and personally I would wait until her due date as she still may pass them naturally, unless they suspect infection, its no different from a caesar.
> 
> Also why rehome her just because she is spayed ? Isn't she a much loved pet first and foremost ?


I agree on all points.

Also thinking of uprooting her, less than a week after her trauma and consequent spaying if that is what happens, seems rather heartless to me.
Breeding I feel is about cats, not just about what they can do for you.

Lauren


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm sorry. I certainly don't think you should rehome her next week as you say surely she's been through enough, poor cat


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## abbscats (Nov 8, 2008)

Thats just such terrible news taylorbaby - I had been following your posts hoping that all would end ok for you but this is the worse news!! Did your vets give you any idea why this had happened, why does she need to have the womb took away?? I am so sorry you must be devastated as we all would be. So glad you made the call to take her to the vets. xx


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Oh Taylorbaby i am so so sorry about your news   

Thinking of you. 

xx


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

As KK and Saiks have said there isn't a need to neuter and if it were me i'd ask the vets why theyre trying to get you to do that as it's a drastic measure to be honest and they should have given you options not just told you that x


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I am very sorry this is happening to you, but just calm down and slow down. Why does she have to be spayed? Is she full of pus or what?

You see, one of my girls, that I desperately wanted a litter from, had something like this. She didn't come into labour at the right time and it turned out there was a dead and decomposing kitten stuck somewhere inside but not visible until she actually gave birth - at which point it was already decomposing. The dead kitten had sent infection up the cervix and that had killed all the other kittens. Vicky gave birth to the next dead kitten normally, but then the third got stuck. She was full of pus and it was nasty. The vet urged me to have her spayed, saying it was dangerous to do a caesarean on a cat with a uterus full of pus in case it spilled into the abdomen and caused peritonitis. Nevertheless I was adamant that I didn't want her spayed, and the vet did as I asked, washed it all out thoroughly with saline, turned the edges of the uterus over to safeguard against any much spilling into the abdomen, and sent me home with antibiotics. 

That was on a Friday and I have to say I had a bad weekend BUT Vicky was fine AND she came into labour normally the next time and delivered two normally. The third came out by caesarean but with hindsight even that wasn't necessary - the cat was very large and we all thought there were several more kittens but in fact there was only one. That one was my Mitzi (Huggibear Autumn Promise) and I love her to pieces and she is even doing well at shows so I have no regrets.

I rehomed Vicky just this week and I miss her, but any further breeding would almost certainly have resulted in a third caesarean and it was totally uneconomic. I have two of her kittens to breed on from (the first to be born died but that was nothing to do with anything that happened to Vicky, the poor little thing had a heart defect).

So, you may have to talk your vet round, and you may have to accept that you will be taking a bit of a risk, but you might well be able to get round this without spaying your girl. Have a look round the internet, the procedure is called lavage and is listed as having some measure of success with a pyo - I am assuming it is a pyo that is the problem. I'm also assuming the girl's cervis isn't open so they cant just give her oxytocin?

Once again I am sorry this is happening to you - if I recall correctly you are quite a new breeder and it is very bad luck. Three days ago my Trudie (first timer) lost her only kitten, stillborn and had been dead for some time. She has a bit of an infection but it's not too bad, she's quite well in herself and at least we avoided a caesarean and can try again (apologies if I've said this already on this thread!)

Liz


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## animalia (Feb 2, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I agree on all points.
> 
> Also thinking of uprooting her, less than a week after her trauma and consequent spaying if that is what happens, seems rather heartless to me.
> Breeding I feel is about cats, not just about what they can do for you.
> ...


Same here, seems a bit harsh to toss her out after such a drama.  Poor lil mite. Taylorbaby, didn't you just acquire some of these queens from other homes already pregnant? Now she's not able to have this litter she's no good to you?? I thought you had re-homed her or did you just take her on for the kittens?? :frown2:


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Hiya thanks for the replys

All I can go by is what the vets said, they said that the kittens are dead and and needs to have her womb taken out to get them out? 

I said 'is there ANY other way this can be avoided?' They said 'no she needs to have it done and have the womb taken away & be spayed'

they wanted to do it there and then & I said no Ill call my breeder first

I spoke to her breeder who is very shocked as she has never even had this happen to her or anyone before. 

they said that she Cant give birth naturally as the kittens are dead? they dont know why it happened but they think they have been dead for about 2 weeks when she started to bleed?

She isnt dilated to give birht they said that she isnt def not going to give birth tom its more like days away (this was before they did the scan to see if they were alive)

Is there any other way that this can be avoided??? 

What should I ask my vets? I am new to this so I just go by what I am told and they said that this is the only way? Obviously if there is any other way that I can get round this I will!

I am not going to re home her so soon, maybe I wont at all, Its just that I am so upset over it all its just what came out. It has always been my plan to retire her and keep 2 of her kittens along with another Queen as I haven't got room for everyone here, obviously breeders do do this, if I had all the room in the world I wouldn't. 

I am not tossing her out. I bought her after a planned mating that I planned with the breeder before she came to me as he is a excellent stud. And I didnt get 'some' cats I got 1 cat mated, and that was her.

I love her and only want whats best, shes such a great cat and the best bloodlines so loving and playful.

Can any tell mew what I should ask me vet if this can be avoided?


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## animalia (Feb 2, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> Hiya thanks for the replys
> 
> All I can go by is what the vets said, they said that the kittens are dead and and needs to have her womb taken out to get them out?
> 
> ...


Is this Tsarina the Starwinds queen? Maybe you could speak to her original breeder at Starwinds and see if their vet can look after her. Sounds like your vet isn't very knowledgeable about the situation and is eager to spay her.  I believe Starwinds has a great vet as they are also a cattery and boarding kennels for quarantined animals.


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## JoWDC (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh Taylor Baby, thats such a shame coming so soon after your recent large brood. Both you and Mum must be feeling really down at the moment. I'm not a breeder so can't give any advice but i hope the delivery can be done without too much trauma to Mum.

My thoughts are with you all at this sad time.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I have already emailed them I am just depserate for some advice I dont want her spayed Im just listening to the vets advice.

Does anyone here know any vets they could possilby ask for me what else I can do?

Ill see what she says, hopefully she will get back tonight, I might cancel the spaying for tom, they just make it sound scary and I dont want her to get a infection because they are dead inside her 

She had a weeks worth on anti'bs so hopefully that will buy me some time as I work out what can be done :confused1:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Try telling them you are desperately keen to save the girls' breeding potential and just ask if they can't do a caesarean and lavage. Say you realise the risks and are willing to sign whatever they want you to sign to say that they have warned you of the dangers and you have opted for this route.

Or another alternative, which isn't very nice, is to just not go back, wait until she either gives birth naturally (which will be pretty gruesome I'm afraid) or gets ill, and then take her in to a different vet.

It is simply not true that girls cannot give birth naturally to dead kittens. It IS true that it is harder for them and it may well be true that if the kittens have decomposed it will be harder still as there will effectively be nothing solid to push against, that was the case with my girl who had the stuck dead kitten. It came halfway out and then she couldn't get it out any further and it was actually decomposing. But the vet got it out then and, if we had not been unlucky enough for the third one to be stuck, it might all have ended without a caesarean.

Liz


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## hstar (Dec 21, 2007)

aw am gutted for you and your girlie
like you said she has had antibiotics
I really hope you can get her sorted without drastic measures
xxx


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Get yourself onto two yahoogroups:

fanciershealth : Health issues related to pedigreed cats

and Yahoo! Groups

(I think those are correct, if not yell!)

ask there, it will give you a bit more to go on. Also do an internet search on pyometra in cats.

Liz


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

hiy athanks ill try them now, she hasnt got a infection though, she is relly healthy & happy its just they are dead inside her & they said no way of getting out so remove the womb & spay her to Prevent her getting a infection 

oh my head hurts this just gets more confusing!


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Sharon,

I'm so sorry


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## animalia (Feb 2, 2009)

lizward said:


> Or another alternative, which isn't very nice, is to just not go back, wait until she either gives birth naturally (which will be pretty gruesome I'm afraid) or gets ill, and then take her in to a different vet.


That's rather contumacious, not knowing what sort of infection she may or may not have. We don't know this cat or what condition it's in. :frown2: Risking her health is really not a practical answer.

Taylor, I would suggest you call Starwinds now, don't wait for them to return your email, as they may not check them regularly. They are a very busy cattery. I'm sure they will understand the pressing matter and how important it is she is seen by a knowledgeable vet. I know if it was one of my girls I wouldn't care what hour it was when you called.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

one step ahead of you already called them 

Im going to talk to my vet tom and see what they say to just a c-section helping her to give birth naturally, if not ill spay her, I have to do what is best for her  

Poor girl, she is in tip-top health shes eating/drinking/playing happy she doesnt have any discharge & no infections its just this, I thinkl its a bit drastic but ill have to see what they say tom


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## MissD (Mar 2, 2009)

I'm so sorry to read that, thinking of you


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

thanks

I just spoke to another vet on the phone (not my one but a out of hours one)

And they said that giving the shot to help her give birth is risky & doingf a c-section is risky as it could create a infection?

so womb & spaying is the best thing?!

Im going to talk to the vet tom, it is the head vet doing it so Ill dicuss it with him if anything else can be done, it seems a little drastic I wish I asked why all this needed to be done but I was so upset I couldnt even speak 

roll on 8am


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

You know she could have a very minor infection which isn't noticable in her demeanor or seen physically hun x Something like that can be the cause of problems like this and also premature births etc too x

I do hope you can get some more info on this, i don't think spaying is the most perfect idea and to be honest i'm getting quite miffed at some vets lately, it's like they won't give you an alternative or discuss things, it's got to be what they think that has to be done x
There are a lot of knowledgable ppl on that health fanciers board, hopefully someone will answer your post soon hun xx


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Hiya I posted on that board and ALL of them said dont spay her! 

Im going to talk to the vet tom, if she had a infection at all what would be the signs to look out for?

Lucky she had anti 'bs for a week so she only stopped them about a week back? 

Ill ask him tom and see what he says  Poor girl I dont like to see them going through pain, my boys had so many ops its terrible


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Don't forget vets are very much geared up to spaying and not very geared up to breeders of pedigree cats (most of them anyway). Apparently it is the exchange of hormones between mother and unborn kittens that starts the borth process, so with a belly full of dead kittens I guess she might not start giving birth on time, but surely they DO give birth even if the kittens are dead, at least, mine did.

They won't want to do a caesarean because there is likely to be some infection inside (most of which will be being held in by the closed cervix, you should have seen the mess that came out of mine with the first kitten!) but that doesn't mean it can't be done. You will need to be fairly insistent I think, explain that she cost you a lot of money for breeding and that she is important to your future plans. If after saying that you still can't find one to do it then I guess you are stuck.

Where in the country are you? One of us might know a vet within reach who might be more willing to help.

Liz


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

hiya im in Essex

she is going in tom at 8am and I will talk to him about the injection and c-section and tell him what I want done!! 

How much roughly are C-sections so I know how much to take with me incase he says he will do it there and then? 

I dont really know of any other vets open tom either, just a pain that it is the flippin weekend 

I better go to bed I have to get up in a few hours Ill check on here before I leave in the morning thanks for all your help


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2009)

ok

c-section price really does depend on who and what lol!

My girls recent section and spey (remember she is a rescue, and so speyed at same time meant they didnt have to be too careful about tidy utering incisions) has cost £485

I have had another rescue who decided it was to be 2am on a bank holiday and her section and spey cost £900 (cant remember exact figure but it was aounrd the £900 mark).

My friend who breeds exotics and persians has had prices for a straighforward section (no spey) ranging from £700 - £1200

hope it helps xx


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Yikes that's expensive!

I've only ever had emergency sections - about £500. I had rather assumed it would be substantially less if not done in the middle of the night but perhaps I was wrong!

Liz


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2009)

i think it depends where you are in the country and the vet you use lol!

Everywhere seems to be different prices. Like i said my girls (only last week) was an emergency section, spey, removal of deformed kitten and attempts to save the remaining one. She also had 2 x-rays and fluid support. this was a grand total of £485


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> ok
> 
> c-section price really does depend on who and what lol!
> 
> ...


No offense, but you're both getting ripped off and should look for a new vet xxx


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2009)

lol the only one i have had to cover the cost for myself is my own girl (recent c-section), the others are paid for the rescue centre i volunteer for - they are the cats i foster.

I'm not sure how qualified you are to say we are being ripped off.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2009)

i have just phoned 3 other vets in my area (not same area as my friend)

and have been given these prices:

£395 - £550 for routine daytime no complications
£755 - £980 for emergency

Possibly more if there is infection form deceased kittens or other complicatons, possibly less if spaying at same.

Lower prices are from the small new vets that has just opened, highest are from the big chain of vets in the area.


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

LOL, don't worry i shan't comment again, I wouldn't pay those prices though for just a c-section on it's own when a friend of mine only paid 350 and that was an emergency without a spay x


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2009)

sorry looscoons - i didnt mean my post to sound so snappy! - i apologise as re-reading it it does come accross that way.

What i was trying to say (unsuccessfully) is that vet prices vary greatly from area to area, and that just because one of use gets our treatment cheaper than another, unfortunatly we are all in the postcode lottery. 

i should have taken the time to say that fully before.... sorry again!


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## poshcats (May 17, 2008)

well my total bill for c section and scan before was £280 and that included antibiotics!!!It was during the day, I know from experience out of hours treatment is anther £70 .
Lynne
x


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

poshcats said:


> well my total bill for c section and scan before was £280 and that included antibiotics!!!It was during the day, I know from experience out of hours treatment is anther £70 .
> Lynne
> x


ah see i knew it was something like that Lynne lol x


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## animalia (Feb 2, 2009)

LousKoonz said:


> No offense, but you're both getting ripped off and should look for a new vet xxx


I agree with this too. Definitely getting over charged. Qualified or not Lou knows her ****. Working with rescues myself and with animals most of my life I can concur you are being over charged. The most I have ever seen for a c-section was round £500 and that was with stay over for three days with fluids for observation included.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

So sorry to hear about this Taylorbaby. I'd try really hard NOT to get her spayed, unless absolutely necessary. But if she's in no discomfort could she wait till Monday and be seen by another vet? 

I know what you mean about potentially rehoming though - I have my Minnii who is at stud for the third time - if this is also unsucessful (it possible she rolls) we may need to spay and rehome. We are sucha small establishment we can't keep neuters and have room for breeding queens - harsh but practical and many people out there are looking for older and therefore cheaper pedigrees. 

You do what you feels best for you and your situation. ANd goodluck.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Thanks Spid x 

I phoned 3 other vets & all agreed with my vet what is best to do I dont want to leave it any longer as she hbad a small amount of discharge this morning, very little but Im not risking it 

Well my girl has to stay over night  he did what I asked to try and save her being spayed and she is a real mess inside   He phoned me to see what I wanted to do and I had to agree with him 

I wont keep going over it as its done now and I am just too upset 

Thanks for all of your help I cant beleive my poor baby girl had to go through this. :angry: :sad:

Thanks again everyone x


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

Hi,

Im so sorry you have had this outcome, I think its devastating for any breeder but for a newcomer its very hard. I hope she recovers well for you and you have friends on here to chat to.

Best wishes

Izzie


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Hi taylorbaby, 
I'm so sorry to read your latest post. I'm afraid I don't have any advice to offer but I have been following this thread and hoping that things worked out well for you and your girl. I'm sorry to hear this news but you have done the best you can for her. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her speedy recovery. 
From Cassandra xx


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

sorry to hear that she had to be spayed, but by the sound of it it really was the only option - you'd have thought she'd have shown at least some sign of a problem, it's amazing how good cats are at hiding illness 



Taylorbaby said:


> Thanks Spid x
> 
> I phoned 3 other vets & all agreed with my vet what is best to do I dont want to leave it any longer as she hbad a small amount of discharge this morning, very little but Im not risking it
> 
> ...


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I know thats what I cant believe She was fine! Then this morning about 4am she sat down and got up started licking I looked at th place she was sitting and there was a bit of greenish/grey? discharge quite thick  

I was In two minds whether to wait until Monday but when I See that I knew that I couldn't wait.

Im just glad she had those anti'bs for a week otherwise it could have been even worse, if thats possible 

Well Its done now just waiting for her to get home tom and give her some nice treats and let her recover.

It is awful especially as I am knew to breeding just made me feel like just giving up and not bothering but then ID be giving up a life long dream & passion and I guess we all come across pitfalls that w we need to jump back up from.

Thanks for all your advice & warm wishes Ill give my baby a bug hug from you all :aureola:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm really sorry it has ended this way for you.

Liz


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

You have to be a strong person to be a breeder hunny, that'll not ever be the last problem you have hun x but knowing you have people you can turn to for good advice and experienced answers always helps, doesn't matter how far into breeding you are there is always a new scenario and something new you'll learn xx


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## thumbs (Mar 4, 2009)

just seen this thread...... i am soooo sorry for you taylorbaby, and mummy cat! what a terrible thing to go through. as bad as you are feeling, know that there is a silver lining. your girl is still alive! you did the right thing imo, and i am sure that your girl will appreciate all you have done for her. seem to me that if u had waited till monday, it may have gone too far and made her really ill. as a breeder, u may not have the room to keep her, and if this is the case then i am sorry, but at least somebody out there will have the pleasure of looking after this very special lady for years to come!

keep with the breeding, there may be crushing lows, but there are also fantastic high's. all my thoughts are with you and your girl x x x


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## deedeedee (Apr 2, 2008)

Sorry huni, I know how much you wanted these babies and for mum to be ok

D xx


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> made me feel like just giving up


We've felt like giving up many times over the past two years. Every time a baby dies or is stillborn it hurts like hell and you feel like giving it all up.

However just looking at the little ones upstairs, seeing their hunger for life and knowing that their going to loving homes makes us realise that it's all worth it. 

I hope your girl recovers soon.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Thanks Im glad others have felt that way, I have sat with my other girls kittens nearly all night to cheer myself up, they are really coming along starting to push eachother and eat there paws, one tried to suckle my lip :001_tt1:

I cant imagine not doing it again Ive always dreamed of doing this and one day showing my own lines I have to do it! 

Yes you are right at least she is alive and well I hope things go up from here on )


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## thumbs (Mar 4, 2009)

atta girl, taylorbaby, thats the breeders spirit!:thumbup:


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

Hi,

You sound better already, once you have your little girl home to cuddle and see how much she needs you and loves you you will realise its all worth it. I have had a disastarous start to the year with my cats but Im now starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel and feeling so much better. 

I hope all goes well for you with your litter.Have you got any pics of them at all I would love to see them?

Izzie


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Hiya the kittens died inside her so not kittens to see I am afraid.

Or did you mean my other litter? lots of pictures are on my website in my signature x


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

hi hun

I am so sorry about your girl

hope everything else goes your way.

What has her breeders said are they going to find you another breeding girl or refund some of her cost as you cant breed from her?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I don't know how I missed this the other day. Taylorbaby I am so sorry for all that your poor girl has been through and how devastating it has been for you. Thank goodness you have your other litter to care for and help to cheer you up. I hope your girl is ok when you get her back from the vets. ((())) to you and all of your furbabies. xxxx


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

candysmum said:


> hi hun
> 
> I am so sorry about your girl
> 
> ...


Hi Candy's Mum,

Im curious to wonder why you think the breeder should refund some money or offer another kitten? At the end of the day this is nobodys fault,just one of the sad things that happens to breeders.

When I had a Siamese girl years back she went into labour at 8 weeks and lost a single kitten. At no point did I get offered a re mating from the stud nor any help from the breeder. I think it depends on the generousity of the breeder really but I doubt they feel responsible in any way to offer any recompsation for whats happened, Please correct me if Im wrong.

Izzie


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## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

Izzie999 said:


> Hi Candy's Mum,
> 
> Im curious to wonder why you think the breeder should refund some money or offer another kitten? At the end of the day this is nobodys fault,just one of the sad things that happens to breeders.
> 
> ...


As much as i agree it is not the breeders fault i do not agree with the way you think on this subject x

A breeder is yes entitled to do what they like i think it shows incredible responsibility that her breeder has infact offered her another girl as replacement x

a contract for breeding usually states if the girl is unfit to be a queen then certain things can be done about it, at least in my experience that is and i also have these contracts with ALL of my euro imports too x

Now i need no prompting on doing this myself either, the kittens that i sell for breeding i will replace or sort a suitable alternative compensation should they not be fit to breed with x

IF only pet price is paid then i think they don't have to as much but a breeder who sells for more than pet price for a breeding cat should at least discuss this with the new owner, paying out 800+ for some cats and my stud boy in effect cost me 2k, i wouldn't have bought the kitten if this wasn't in place as if somethings wrong then you've lost a lot of money and then have to pay out again to find another and some people can't afford to do this as you don't earn any money in breeding x

with matings with someone elses stud then again it's up to the particular breeder but i think when it comes to an actual breeding girl or boy it's more of a larger amount of money  x


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

Hi Louise,

I guess I was very unlucky then, as I got zero support when I bred my girl, even though it was done with their blessing and with a stud of their recommendation.

I think its great that Taylorbaby has been offered another girl,its really good she has the support of everyone on here really. I wish there had been forums such as this one when I attempted breeding over 8 years ago now. 

I hope it goes well for your other litter Taylorbaby,I wouldn't wish the events of the last few days on anyone, I feel very sad for your situation.

Izzie


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

It always seems to me the more we want something when breeding the less likely it is to work out that way. I have been very upset about things going wrong at times, which on hindsight wouldn't have worked out well anyway and often later on I have thanked my lucky stars. 

It is a very sad start to your breeding career Taylorbaby but things can only get better, I would have thought. Hug and look after your little ones from your other girl.
As someone else said your girl is still alive and you can take comfort in that.

Lauren


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you lost your cat and family member that would be devastating. If you lose kittens that have been born alive that you have bonded with and possibly fought for that is devastating, but still borns or those that never live outside their Mum are just little souls returned to this world before their time. They don't suffer they only ever know warmth, security and the sound of their Mums purr. In any mating any live kittens are a bonus and not a given. If you still have your queen healthy and alive spayed or not then all you can really morn is the disappointment of plans that never come to fruision. Mother Nature always has the upper hand and you have to accept that.
To be honest, moving a pregnant adult cat into a strange home with existing cat family is way too much stress at one go, and had a low chance of success. I have never liked breeders passing on entire adults to other breeders for them to use and pass on when they are done with them or have kittens in their own prefix to replace them. To my mind that is treating the cat like a walking uterus and not a individual worthy of being loved in her own right. Her worth is gauged soley on her ability to reproduce and nothing else. 
I can understand breeders who have been breeding for a number of years and wish to continue breeding rehoming a retired queen, as you can not keep every one (personally I would rather give up breeding that do that, but thats just my opinion), but if you have to do that when you have just started out because you don't have the room for one extra cat then you shouldn't be having kittens, as you have no guarantees that you will be able to sell/rehome all or any of those kittens for a myrriad of different reasons and may have to keep them.
I think anyone who starts out a breeding career with easy success litter after litter is very lucky. My first queen I purchased from a very reputatble breeder from supposedly excellent lines - and yes I had done a lot of research and home work before hand - was discovered to have a heart murmur at 5mths old on a routine trip to the vets. I had no intention of using her as a breeding queen and she was spayed and stayed with me as the head of my cat house hold until her premature death from a massive heart attack aged just 6 ½ yrs. Despite the fact two independent vets told me her murmur would have been there from birth, I was never offered my money back nor a replacement kittens. Rightly or wrongly I just accepted that there were no guarantees in life.


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

Have to say Saikou I agree with what you have said. I see it as this, when getting into breeding for whatever reason as it seems to me that the reasons are questionable nowadays, that we have to remember we are messing with nature. As in we choose who our cats go with it is not a natural selection, so the best way to think imo is to expect the unexpected. I myself am new to breeding & everyday it's a learning curve likewise with life in generall. We all continue to learn until the time comes that we all move on to another place.

Sorry to have waffled but just thought I would add my few pence worth!!


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2009)

oh no...

I've just caught up with this post.

I'm so sorry about the outcome, at least you still have your beautiful girl, i'm sorry it wasnt a better outcome though xxxxxxxxxx


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

Goodness, so sorry how rude of me!!!

I'm very sorry about the outcome too Taylorbaby, but agree with everyone in that you still have your beautiful girl x


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Very well said!



Saikou said:


> I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you lost your cat and family member that would be devastating. If you lose kittens that have been born alive that you have bonded with and possibly fought for that is devastating, but still borns or those that never live outside their Mum are just little souls returned to this world before their time. They dont suffer they only ever know warmth, security and the sound of their Mums purr. In any mating any live kittens are a bonus and not a given. If you still have your queen healthy and alive spayed or not then all you can really morn is the disappointment of plans that never come to fruision. Mother Nature always has the upper hand and you have to accept that.
> To be honest, moving a pregnant adult cat into a strange home with existing cat family is way too much stress at one go, and had a low chance of success. I have never liked breeders passing on entire adults to other breeders for them to use and pass on when they are done with them or have kittens in their own prefix to replace them. To my mind that is treating the cat like a walking uterus and not a individual worthy of being loved in her own right. Her worth is gauged soley on her ability to reproduce and nothing else.
> I can understand breeders who have been breeding for a number of years and wish to continue breeding rehoming a retired queen, as you can not keep every one (personally I would rather give up breeding that do that, but thats just my opinion), but if you have to do that when you have just started out because you dont have the room for one extra cat then you shouldnt be having kittens, as you have no guarantees that you will be able to sell/rehome all or any of those kittens for a myrriad of different reasons and may have to keep them.
> I think anyone who starts out a breeding career with easy success litter after litter is very lucky. My first queen I purchased from a very reputatble breeder from supposedly excellent lines  and yes I had done a lot of research and home work before hand  was discovered to have a heart murmur at 5mths old on a routine trip to the vets. I had no intention of using her as a breeding queen and she was spayed and stayed with me as the head of my cat house hold until her premature death from a massive heart attack aged just 6 ½ yrs. Despite the fact two independent vets told me her murmur would have been there from birth, I was never offered my money back nor a replacement kittens. Rightly or wrongly I just accepted that there were no guarantees in life.


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