# Please give me your advice regarding my stud



## Boxerlady (Oct 24, 2012)

Hello,

Can someone give me some advice about where i stand on this please.

I have been advertising my Boxer male out for stud (he is proven by my own bitch) and had a fair amount of interest via emails/phone calls etc. But yesterday I had a guy bring his bitch to be 'covered'. I had been to his home the previous day, but the bitch showed no interest in being ready, so he then came to me. It took a while of waiting around, but they eventually mated and locked in. But the guy then told me he had only brought 3/4 of the amount of stud fee, and that he will bring the rest when he brings his bitch tomorrow. Needless to say i wasnt happy, but at that moment what could i do? nothing.

Anyway i waited in today for him to show up. Half an hour after he said he would turn up nothing, so i called him. He made up some excuse about why he couldnt get across, so plans to come over tomorrow at the same time instead. 

Now husband is getting annoyed, saying 'i dont think he will turn up'. The guy obviously still owes us money, but what if he doesnt come back? What can i legally do? I havent signed any KC paperwork as yet.

Also, what would i of been able to do, if he had not brought any money and didnt tell me till it was too late?? really dont want to be messed around with this again, but dont want to just 'demand' the money upfront, as its not just about money.

Having to ask all this as ive only ever taken my bitch to studs before, until we got our boy. I always paid on first covering and never messed anyone around.

Any help/info appreciated!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

he wouldn't have had a mating if he came to me with less than the stud fee. If you don't get the rest you are under no obligation to sign the kc forms until he does. If he doesn't cough up with the rest of the money and you haven't signed the forms he won't be able to kc register them. 
Can i e politely ask why you need to advertise your dog for stud worK?


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

I doubt there's anything you can do! Make sure you get payment prior to mating next time! (Who knows where the pups will end up, as he dosent sound very trust worthy)


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## Boxerlady (Oct 24, 2012)

Thanks, thats what i was thinking. what if he hadnt told me he had no money on him until they had locked in? where would i of stood then? really dont want this to happen again.

I advertised him, as thats how i had found stud dogs in the years i have been breeding dogs.


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## Boxerlady (Oct 24, 2012)

Well, i have his address and contact numbers and a copy of his bitches pedigree, so all appeared ok. Im just really annoyed that he might be pulling a fast one. Im giving him the benefit of the doubt, so will see if he turns up tomorrow.


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## Boxerlady (Oct 24, 2012)

regarding advertising....

I breed dogs as family pets/ best friends, not show dogs. I believe my dog to be of show quality, but i do not have time to currently get into showing. My dogs are thoroughly health tested.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Had the bitch been fully tested for any relevant breed conditions too?

I really hope so 

You could threaten to take this man to the small claims court, but if there was no written contract, I'm not sure if he'd be all that worried.

Maybe get a solicitor's letter? That might pressure him into paying up.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Boxerlady said:


> regarding advertising....
> 
> I breed dogs as family pets/ best friends, not show dogs. I believe my dog to be of show quality, but i do not have time to currently get into showing. My dogs are thoroughly health tested.


Showing aside are yours health tested?


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## Boxerlady (Oct 24, 2012)

yes they as, as mentioned in my quote box in your message


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Doh!

All seems a bit dodgy to me though with this man, if he's pulling a fast one what will be his policy on those poor pups?  I would suggest contacting him to let him know you will not let him register the pups etc.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Was the bitch fully health tested also?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> Doh!
> 
> All seems a bit dodgy to me though with this man, if he's pulling a fast one what will be his policy on those poor pups?  I would suggest contacting him to let him know you will not let him register the pups etc.


that why imo its better for someone to ask you to use your dog rather than advertise him at stud .


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## Boxerlady (Oct 24, 2012)

im really unsure. he seemed very genuine when we spoke to him a few weeks ago, which is why he shocked me by saying he didnt have the full fee on him. I just wish he had mentioned it before hand.

Like i said before tho, i will wait to see what happens tomorrow. I will not sign anything until i have the full fee.


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## Boxerlady (Oct 24, 2012)

yes sorry the bitch is health tested also.

I will be very weary of anyone in future.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

There's no need to 'demand' money up front. Just make it part of the contract - ie fees are due on arrival. Or even 'half the fee to secure the dates you want, then the other half due on arrival'.

It's too easy for people to decide they can't be bothered to turn up, and if you're having to stay home all day waiting, or can't then book anyone else in that day that's your costs you need to cover. I assume you are registered with HMRC?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Of course he didn't mention it beforehand. He probably had no intention of paying the full fee. He is quids in if he gets a full litter out of that mating.

Who's to say that if his bitch is pregnant, what will happen to the litter? What if he uses them for indiscriminite breeding. Sounds like he is the sort that would.


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## Kaori (Sep 26, 2012)

Going to agree and say he probably had absolutely no intention of paying the full fee. If he did he would have told you when he arrived not when it was too late.

I would threaten with small claims court and until you get the full amount don't sign any KC papers.
I know it's a horrible thought as to where the pups will end up but don't let it put you off keeping you boy up as a public stud. Maybe just use a contract next time of up front payment before any breeding is done.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm afraid byb will only attract other byb! 

Didn't you check and discuss all the paperwork, health tests and contract first?
Did you have a contract and get is signed before the mating? Why were you taking your dog to the bitch? It's normal for bitches to visit the stud dog.

Not a lot else to say except that I'm not surprised.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't know if this has been asked, but do you not have a contract which is agreed beforehand? It would be worth putting one in place, at the very least so things between you and the bitch owner are agreed; if it were me, I'd also want to be involved with pups, to try and ensure they were sold under contract with appropriate help from the bitch owner, and if necessary, from yourself


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## Sezzastar (Oct 2, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> I'm afraid byb will only attract other byb!
> 
> Didn't you check and discuss all the paperwork, health tests and contract first?
> Did you have a contract and get is signed before the mating? Why were you taking your dog to the bitch? It's normal for bitches to visit the stud dog.
> ...


The bitch did come to the stud dog.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Sezzastar said:


> The bitch did come to the stud dog.





> I had been to his home the previous day, but the bitch showed no interest in being ready, so he then came to me.


Not the first time! And as a stud dog you should have a good idea of the signs that a bitch IS ready. If the bitch has shown no interest at all, I'm not sure I'd bother the very next day either unless she was showing some signs but not allowing it. On the other hand if she accepted him the next day, it is possible that she wasn't interested on her home turf. Bitches can get territorial and more dominant on the home turf which is why it is best to visit the stud dog.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Sezzastar said:


> The bitch did come to the stud dog.


Not the first attempt...

Personally, if I wasn't handed a contract to sign stating how many matings and what happens if no pregnancy occurs, then I consider walking away...
I've also always paid for the service before the mating.

Where have ou been advertising him? Can you not work through a breed club or the like, you'd have a better chance of good pairing than of a free ads site


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## dobermum78 (Jul 8, 2012)

ohh dear . I do not think any claims court would take this on. Its like something that could happen in a park.

Surely all paperwork and monies should be done before hand, 50%upfront. 

At the end of the day I wouldn't just use anybody even if their dog is health tested, I would have wanted to meet the dog a few times, ceck its temprement and at the same time check out the owner.

Sorry its happened to you, looks like you just have to hope that the bitch doesnt take


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## Boxerlady (Oct 24, 2012)

thank you for the replies.

It was arranged that 'he' wanted me to bring my dog to his home (he covered my fuel expenses), at the time i thought it was because he didnt have any of his own transport. That day the bitch wasnt willing to stand (this was day 10) so i told him i would return on day 12, as orginally planned. He then rang me later that evening saying he wanted to bring the bitch to ours the next day, as he didnt want to risk her 'missing'. I did say i didnt think it would make any difference and to leave it till day 12, but he insisted.

But, as i said in the first post 'he' was planning on coming back today for the 2nd covering, but didnt tell me he was not bothering until i contacted him. He made some excuse about having to deal with 'some problems on ebay', which im sure would of taken him all day :rolleyes5:. why he couldnt of contacted me to let me know, ive no idea. He has told me hes coming back tomorrow afternoon, but im sure the snow will be his next excuse.

We signed no contract. It was a verbal arrangment, but i did specify it all on my advert. I only carried this out the way other studs have dealt with us. Needless to say i will not be so relaxed in future.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> It was arranged that 'he' wanted me to bring my dog to his home (he covered my fuel expenses), at the time i thought it was because he didnt have any of his own transport.


Did you not ASK why he wanted you to come to him? Did you not explain that it is better for the bitch to visit the stud dog? Did you KNOW that it's better for the bitch to visit the stud dog?

If you act like a byb you will attract byb.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

Harsh lesson to be learned I'm afraid, just chalk it upto experience and don't sign any paperwork he gives you until he does pay up or rather IF, although if he's the sort to do this I'd say BYB who doesn't care as long as he makes a fast buck who gives little or no regard to the dog or future pups!

I don't stand dogs at stud but I do horses and I've always got them to pay upfront the full stud fee as well as a contract, the stud dog I used on my ridgie years ago i had to pay in full upfront and sign a contract too - any good breeder of any species will do that - verbal agreements amount to nothing these days legally. 

If you are having to advertise your dog and only attracting other 'pet' or poorer quality dogs and owners then personally I'd either get your dog to some shows or join your local breed club and speak to some folk there who will then be able to reccomend you via word of mouth etc. Shows or breed clubs are where you'll meet better owners and get much better quality bitches for your dog IF he is as you say good enough quality to be bred from at all. We all are guilty of thinking our pets are the best out there but shows at least get others who know what they are doing to give an unbiased opinion and bring us back to reality! There are so many good stud dogs out there at the mo that people with good bitches are only going to use the best dogs they can, not just someones pet who wants to make some money and not for the benefit of the dog or breed - harsh I know but true! Maybe it would be better to get him neutered and enjoy him as a pet rather than breed more dogs with no records at all other than a pedigree, especially at the mo when rescues are over flowing?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

nothing useful to add but im in rotherham too


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## Boxerlady (Oct 24, 2012)

yes i told the man all about bringing her here, which is what worked best anyway.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Boxerlady do you think this person isnt bothered about the paperwork?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Boxerlady do you think this person isnt bothered about the paperwork?


Or they might even get someone else to register the pups under their sires name.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Or they might even get someone else to register the pups under their sires name.


Ah with ya..or they may even own that said boy who isnt up for the job for one reason or another.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

No-one can register dogs under a name except the owner(s). So if they know someone else with a boxer, they could persuade them to allow them to use their *dog* as the named sire, rather than the OP's, but if the OP refutes the claim that her dog was used, they can't be registered with the KC. However, it could get messy if the bitch owner goes down the DNA route, the OP really needs to get it sorted out with the bitch owner, and that's why a contract is necessary. 

I would also agree with the advice of others, I would never look in the small ads or on the free advertising websites for a stud dog. The vast majority of people who go on those places shouldn't be breeding in the first place.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Or they might even get someone else to register the pups under their sires name.


this just got me thinking- hope you don't mind me asking, but how much is your boys fee? i'm assuming it is taking into account he is tested (what tests are needed/recommended for boxers?).
is it much more than your average pet stud?
in my breed most studs are £200- pet studs £150-£250, but the boy i used for kuki (show dog and sire of champion, and great match for kuki on and off paper) was £200.

surely if you were going to lie on paper about parentage you would use a cheap stud and the registration details of the tested one? 

when we mated missy i did accidently only give the lady £170- she didnt check it until i'd left and i dropped it up the next day when she text me to tell me... but that kind of accident doesn't seem to be the case here...


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## Boxerlady (Oct 24, 2012)

My husband rang him up a little while ago and i 'think' things are going to be sorted out now tomorrow.

and yes i agree, it would probably be quite easy for someone to forge the kc paperwork if they know someone with another dog. very devious tho. My vet wouldnt even issue my heart testing certificate without him being micro chipped and linking it with kc.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Boxerlady said:


> yes i told the man all about bringing her here, which is what worked best anyway.


So why didn't you insist he come to you? It would seem the stud fee was more important than doing things properly 

The responsiblity lies with the stud dog owner. Anyone can own an entire male and make money from it!
Where are you advertising?


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## Boxerlady (Oct 24, 2012)

erm....i did insist, but he was adamant that he wanted me to bring him to her. I was just trying to help the guy out. Why am i wrong for that???


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Boxerlady said:


> erm....i did insist, but he was adamant that he wanted me to bring him to her. I was just trying to help the guy out. Why am i wrong for that???


Because I'd be suspicious unless I had a good reason and you say you had no idea why he wanted you to go to him. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure responsible breeding practices, although from what you've said, you don't fall in that category anyway. If you want to do something to HELP - then help rescue, not help people continue more irresponsible breeding while making money at it!

It's YOUR dog, YOU set the terms. And if he wouldn't do it the way you set out, then turn him away! It's what responsible breeding/stud dog work is all about, not just advertising a dog at stud and raking in the cash!


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## suze23 (Jun 3, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Had the bitch been fully tested for any relevant breed conditions too?
> 
> I really hope so
> 
> ...


im really sorry to hi-jack again

but can you please reduce your signature?!!

its really really irritating now! photobucket will reduce it for you!

thanks


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## Boxerlady (Oct 24, 2012)

thank you for your input


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Would it happen to be you who's using pets4homes to advertise your red and white boxer at stud in Rotherham?

If so you won't attract "good" breeders on there.

What health tests have you had done on your boy?


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## suze23 (Jun 3, 2011)

boxerlady - i do appolgise about hi-jacking your thread....i was going to comment with constructive advice but i think everyone has covered it and i got side tracked by the sig


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Maybe the guy wanted to hold back some of the fee until the 2nd tie was achieved?

But the fact its taken you and your OH having to contact him....I think he is a bit suspect.

I wouldnt offer stud services to unknown people....people I didnt completely trust....youve no guarantee that the bitch owner will behave in an ethical manner during the whelp or the placing of pups in homes. You are as responsible as the bitch owner (imho) and I wouldnt put my name to something I had no say or control over. Maybe its just me.

As far as papers go.....registering of litter can be done online...so long as the bitch owner has the studs KC Reg number and KC name... they can state him as the Sire. If this guy did this....you would have a job on your hands getting the KC to sort it out for you.

I hope you manage to sort out the fee issue. Get a contract drawn up for any future stud services you offer to protect yourself...will save some hassle hopefully:yesnod:


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

suze23 said:


> im really sorry to hi-jack again
> 
> but can you please reduce your signature?!!
> 
> ...


Guys are any of you having an issue with my sig pic?

If yes I will happily reduce it.

However in fairness if there is only one person having a problem I won't spend time right now fiddling with it on photobucket.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

dexter said:


> Can i e politely ask why you need to advertise your dog for stud worK?


The large majority of stud dogs (up to and including full champions) get advertised. Even the large majority of top stud dogs are advertised through their breeders websites - and now Champdogs links to stud dog details and verifies health results, even if the breeder doesn't use Champdogs themselves.

I would never have known of my first stud dog if he hadn't been advertised - he was the best part of 16/18 hour round trip away - so the possibility of us crossing on the show circuit was rare as well - once I had decided I am interested in a stud, I then research their progeny - once again - if they weren't advertised, I wouldn't know who they were and where I could see them.

There is also the fact that there are a LOT of unscrupulous breeders advertising non-health-tested (and often unregistered) stud dogs around - the large majority of responsible ethical pet bitch owners who have done their research and completed their health tests on the bitch would be left with very little choice if good dogs weren't advertised.

I've not read all the responses - but first litter I wouldn't charge a stud fee until the bitch was confirmed in whelp - then I would hand over the paperwork and ask for the stud fee (unless with the fee, I was interested in taking a puppy from the litter - then I would wait and either pay the difference between the stud fee and the puppy price, or if there was nothing suitable, ask for the stud fee.

To the OP - If the bitch owner is KC registering the litter - if he is doing it manually - he will need the KC paperwork to send in to them - if he is doing it online, then the KC will write to you, and I think you are given 7 days to "object".

Trouble is - I wouldn't expect a bitch owner to pay up until we got a mating (sometimes two dogs simply don't gel - my boy has had two seasons trying to mate a bitch and it became quite clear it wasn't going to happen between them - luckily - we had lined up a replacement stud with the equivalent health test results - they got a tie straight off.

Once there has been a mating - then I would request the stud fee with an agreement that if the litter produced 3 or less pups, the breeder would have a free return.

Yet - other bitches - we've had ties almost straight away - I am itching to go and see his litter of 10 born this week - but for obvious reasons have to wait until they are four weeks old boo hoo !!!

ETA - all you can do is ensure the KC have your correct contact details for sending the letter - and it might be worth forewarning the KC- surely they must have some system for alerting suspect registrations (unfortunately - if the breeder doesn't register the litter - then you are a bit b*ggared.

As I said - I haven't read every post - have you tried making contact with the bitch owners?

I suppose all you can do in future is ensure that the bitch owner has the correct money with them - but as above, I wouldn't take a penny without a mating

Edited again to say - providing the stud dog owner is sure of the facts of the bitch beforehand - I've turned down far more enquiries than I've accepted - then there shouldn't be a problem


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Guys are any of you having an issue with my sig pic?
> 
> If yes I will happily reduce it.
> 
> However in fairness if there is only one person having a problem I won't spend time right now fiddling with it on photobucket.


It fills a whole screen! On other forums, you'd get an infraction for it. I've had to turn off sigs


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Guys are any of you having an issue with my sig pic?
> 
> If yes I will happily reduce it.
> 
> However in fairness if there is only one person having a problem I won't spend time right now fiddling with it on photobucket.





cinammontoast said:


> It fills a whole screen! On other forums, you'd get an infraction for it. I've had to turn off sigs


I had to turn off signatures too. When I asked for one or two to be reduced some time ago I had nasty responses that I should increase my broadband  How wonderful to live somewhere with more than 2 mb available and often far far less. Apart from the fact that I dont want to scroll for ages to get from post to post.
As you say they would not be allowed on any other forum.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

On the original subject. 

I do hope you get it sorted out. People are so dishonest. I assume we are not talking about a huge amount of money though so maybe just chalk it up to experience and refuse to agree to the pups being registered.

Why does everyone have to attack the OP. Health testing and where she advertised are totally irrelevant to her query. I dont suppose the advert would have come up if she had said the dog was not health tested, there would have been enough ammunition from that.
Cant it be accepted that not everyone does it the way the few on pet forums would like it done. There is more than one way to do the same thing responsibly and correctly.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Guys are any of you having an issue with my sig pic?
> 
> If yes I will happily reduce it.
> 
> However in fairness if there is only one person having a problem I won't spend time right now fiddling with it on photobucket.


It is a beautiful signature but it is a little large although it's not as big as the other you had.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> On the original subject.
> 
> I do hope you get it sorted out. People are so dishonest. I assume we are not talking about a huge amount of money though so maybe just chalk it up to experience and refuse to agree to the pups being registered.
> 
> ...


I haven't attacked the OP, I haven't read all the responses either, but surely the type of person attracted to use a stud dog will depend on how/where you advertise and screen possible bitch owners? So simply pointing out that adveritising in the small/free ads, or online freebie sites, is unlikely to attract the sort of *customer* you would imagine is breeding for the right reasons, and is there fore (in my mind at least) less likely to be honest.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

My apologies guys - I didn't realise it was filling a whole screen because it doesn't on mine for some reason. I will adjust it now!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I had to turn off signatures too. When I asked for one or two to be reduced some time ago I had nasty responses that I should increase my broadband  How wonderful to live somewhere with more than 2 mb available and often far far less. Apart from the fact that I dont want to scroll for ages to get from post to post.
> As you say they would not be allowed on any other forum.


Just to clarify: you did not get any 'nasty responses' from me and I never would have mentioned broadband as I don't even understand enough about comps to know what difference that would make! I don't think I was one of the people you asked re sigs back then. Just wanted to make that clear.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Just to clarify: you did not get any 'nasty responses' from me and I never would have mentioned broadband as I don't even understand enough about comps to know what difference that would make! I don't think I was one of the people you asked re sigs back then. Just wanted to make that clear.


Sorry, it was a general comment, though I can remember that yours caused me a problem even back then - but one or two people really made out that I was some sort of imbecile for not phoning my provider and insisting they put in new cables for the entire area so I could see their signatures :ciappa:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I haven't attacked the OP, I haven't read all the responses either, but surely the type of person attracted to use a stud dog will depend on how/where you advertise and screen possible bitch owners? So simply pointing out that adveritising in the small/free ads, or online freebie sites, is unlikely to attract the sort of *customer* you would imagine is breeding for the right reasons, and is there fore (in my mind at least) less likely to be honest.


That is a very good point. But there is constant digs at them for being a byb and demanding to know if the dog is tested and also the bitch.
It really is not helpful to the OP and will probably have lost another member as she will have been made to feel really bad.

We all do things differently.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Blitz said:


> That is a very good point. But there is constant digs at them for being a byb and demanding to know if the dog is tested and also the bitch.
> It really is not helpful to the OP and will probably have lost another member as she will have been made to feel really bad.
> 
> We all do things differently.


I totally agree. I thought the BYB comments were OTT and uncalled for. Nobody has the right to judge a stud owner as a BYB on the information given by OP here.

If my post was judgmental in any way then it came across in the wrong way. I merely wanted go give the OP a little food for thought....as not all stud owners realise that they are responsible...jointly with the bitch owner...for any puppies produced. Well thats how I feel anyway. Also wanted to stress the importance of a contract...for the OPs protection for any future stud services offered.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> My apologies guys - I didn't realise it was filling a whole screen because it doesn't on mine for some reason. I will adjust it now!


Tons better!


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I haven't read the whole thread completely so I don't know if anyone else has suggested this.

If you feel the bitch owner has access to another kc male who he might try to register as the sire of any pups you should contact the kc. You say you ahve seen the bitches paperwork so you must know her reistered name. Tell them there is an issue over the stud fee and you will not signed any paper work untill it is sorted. Tell them although you have no proof you fear he may try to register any resulting pups as being by another sire.

We had an issue once with the owner of a bitch not about a stud fee but about someting else I can't remember what it was but the KC flagged the bitch so no pups could be registered with a date of birth between certain dates without them contacting me first.

What I'm trying to say is they would possibly flag the bitch as pups can only be registered as by your dog and no other for this particular time without preducing the relivant paperwork with your signiture and not done on line as I have before now received the written notice after the 7 day period allowed to contact them.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just another thought, they could also use another dog and pups could be of mixed parentage. I suppose this is where contracts and only allowing those you trust to use a dog comes in when handling stud dogs.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Sorry, it was a general comment, though I can remember that yours caused me a problem even back then - but one or two people really made out that I was some sort of imbecile for not phoning my provider and insisting they put in new cables for the entire area so I could see their signatures :ciappa:


LOL LOL just laughing at the idea that you should put in new cables for sig pics 

Once again, my apologies for any problems that my sig pic caused


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## Sezzastar (Oct 2, 2012)

I also resized mine  Sorry for that, I didn't know it was causing problems


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## Callia (Jan 14, 2009)

Could it not just be totally genuine perhaps 
It is usual to pay on the first mating but if this is someone that has never bred before perhaps he is thinking if he pays the whole fee at the first mating that you might not allow him back for the second. He could well turn up tomorrow with the rest for the second mating and if he doesnt you just dont release the KC docs, youve not actually lost anything. Have a little faith


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

kodakkuki said:


> this just got me thinking- hope you don't mind me asking, but how much is your boys fee? i'm assuming it is taking into account he is tested (what tests are needed/recommended for boxers?).
> is it much more than your average pet stud?
> in my breed most studs are £200- pet studs £150-£250, but the boy i used for kuki (show dog and sire of champion, and great match for kuki on and off paper) was £200.
> 
> ...


I was just reading through and noticed the stud fees.

Just this a.m. I was looking at the stud fees here for Cavaliers, some $1500 even untitled and basically untested (about 750 pounds I think that is). Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Stud Dogs Listing

'Tis a different world of breeding, me thinks.

CC


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> I was just reading through and noticed the stud fees.
> 
> Just this a.m. I was looking at the stud fees here for Cavaliers, some $1500 even untitled and basically untested (about 750 pounds I think that is). Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Stud Dogs Listing
> 
> ...


Wow, I paid £450 for a proven show dog with health testing a plenty, and very good conformation with proven progeny.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

I was looking at that page cuz some of those dogs have good risk of being EFS carriers and DE/CCS by their pedigrees (with a known stud there mentioned a couple of times that has produced numerous EFS carriers from different lined females) and I was checking to see if more breeders are testing.

- http://episodicfallingsyndrom.snadno.eu/Carrier-psi.html

I just also noticed that one of those studs is also my Cavaliers nephew, produced from a half brother through his sire. He had a relatively long "Cavalier" life and was studded until he was ten but is now known to have produced progeny with early cataract development.

Still, yes, I am always amazed at the different stud fees between breeds and in different parts of the world. They can even vary from State to State drastically.

CC


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

kodakkuki said:


> this just got me thinking- hope you don't mind me asking, but how much is your boys fee? i'm assuming it is taking into account he is tested (what tests are needed/recommended for boxers?).
> is it much more than your average pet stud?
> in my breed most studs are £200- pet studs £150-£250, but the boy i used for kuki (show dog and sire of champion, and great match for kuki on and off paper) was £200.
> 
> ...


This is what I thought as I read the thread

I hope you get it sorted and if not I suppose chalk it up to experience.

When I bought one of my show dogs I had accidently put £20 too much in the envelope, only knew when they rung me when I was on the way home!! :lol: :lol:


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## Kunakizz (Nov 25, 2012)

OP, are you able to verify that the paperwork/pedigree you've been shown actually belongs to this bitch? Also that the bitch does not have a breeding endorsement in which case the pups couldn't be registered with the KC anyway.

Would the owner put the same endorsement on any pups born?

Did you have any agreement if the bitch missed for him to have a free mating next time (assuming he's paid in full for the service).


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

kunakizz said:


> op, are you able to verify that the paperwork/pedigree you've been shown actually belongs to this bitch? Also that the bitch does not have a breeding endorsement in which case the pups couldn't be registered with the kc anyway.
> 
> Would the owner put the same endorsement on any pups born?
> 
> Did you have any agreement if the bitch missed for him to have a free mating next time (assuming he's paid in full for the service).


he didn't pay the full stud fee when the fist mating took place 

HOW WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO VERIFY THAT PAPERWORK ACTUALLY BELONGED TO A PARTICULAR BITCH? I CAN'T SEE HOW YOU WOULD UNLESS YOU KNEW THE BITCH PERSONALLY. OOPS SORY DIDN'T MEAN TO SHOUT LOL


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## Kunakizz (Nov 25, 2012)

Yes, I know he hasn't paid in full (yet)!

If the bitch & owner were unknown to me I would attempt to contact the bitches breeder or the owner of her sire (via a breed club maybe) to give me peace of mind that everything was above board, the bitch comes from healthy stock, no endorsements were in place, and that this person was going to be a responsible breeder in finding good homes for the pups not adding to the numbers just to fill his wallet. It is down to the owner to provide you with proof if there was any doubt though. Is she tattooed or microchipped? The paperwork for those is very useful. She would need to be identified for health testing.

I would like to think that everything was ok but you don't know. If his bitch has 10 pups and he has difficulty selling them he might be contacting you or passing them on to less than scrupulous owners. Likewise if a pup develops health issues its very easy to blame the stud dog so it would be nice to know if there were any health issues in her lines.

As a stud dog owner and taking my bitches to other dogs I like to be as sure and responsible as humanly possible. I have been asked to provide stud dog owners with puppy owner contact details and I have no problem with that.


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## geordiegaviino (Mar 26, 2010)

DO NOT SIGN PAPERS TILL THE REST OF FEE IS PAID !! 

Also from now make sure all potential matings are aware stud fee must be paid in full on the day 

Good luck 

Also people stop questioning why she is studding her boy and just offer advice regarding her question.


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## geordiegaviino (Mar 26, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I'm afraid byb will only attract other byb!
> 
> Didn't you check and discuss all the paperwork, health tests and contract first?
> Did you have a contract and get is signed before the mating? Why were you taking your dog to the bitch? It's normal for bitches to visit the stud dog.
> ...


Some breeders personally request for the dog to come to the bitch. My aunty bred show staffs and sometimes this was requested. It can also offer the stud dog owner a chance to check out where he pups will be raised before officially deciding on to weather to agree to the mating!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

geordiegaviino said:


> Some breeders personally request for the dog to come to the bitch. My aunty bred show staffs and sometimes this was requested. It can also offer the stud dog owner a chance to check out where he pups will be raised before officially deciding on to weather to agree to the mating!


By far and large the *done* thing is to take the bitch to the dog, I would never dream of asking a stud dog owner to come to me, they offer a stud service which should be knowledgeable and they should also have good practical experience, or they shouldn't be offering their dog at stud at all


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## geordiegaviino (Mar 26, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> By far and large the *done* thing is to take the bitch to the dog, I would never dream of asking a stud dog owner to come to me, they offer a stud service which should be knowledgeable and they should also have good practical experience, or they shouldn't be offering their dog at stud at all


I agree but I guess we all do things differently. I guess breeders and stud owners also do things differently  Aslong as all know what their doing and that both have done health checks then thats all that matters x


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> By far and large the *done* thing is to take the bitch to the dog, I would never dream of asking a stud dog owner to come to me, they offer a stud service which should be knowledgeable and they should also have good practical experience, or they shouldn't be offering their dog at stud at all


i took my dog to the bitch, didn't have a problem with it as they not too far away and it suited me too


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

geordiegaviino said:


> I agree but I guess we all do things differently. I guess breeders and stud owners also do things differently  Aslong as all know what their doing and that both have done health checks then thats all that matters x


But that's what makes the difference between someone who is allowing their dog to be used in a positive way, and make a good contribution to the gene pool, and someone who hasn't a clue but is just allowing their dog to procreate, and perhaps they might make a bit of extra cash. I know which one I'd rather see happen. Done properly, it's very hard work offering your dog at stud, and requires a lot of knowledge about your breed(s) and the dogs within your breed(s), so you can offer the bitch owner an honest opinion about the mating, and perhaps even turn them away when it's not a suitable pairing. It's also not without it's risks, dogs thrown into strange situations do not behave as you would expect.

Stud dog owners may do things differently, but there is a right way to go about dog breeding in my books, and in that instance, those stud dog owners who do offer their dog at stud and do so in an *ethical* manner, do not differ greatly in the type of service they provide.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

dexter said:


> i took my dog to the bitch, didn't have a problem with it as they not too far away and it suited me too


Perhaps so, but thinking of the breeders I know off the top of my head, I can't think of one that has taken their dog to be used with a bitch, it's always the other way around. There will always be exceptions to every *rule*


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Perhaps so, but thinking of the breeders I know off the top of my head, I can't think of one that has taken their dog to be used with a bitch, it's always the other way around. There will always be exceptions to every *rule*


lol ................yeah like having his brother here


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## queeniefarie (Jan 2, 2013)

I will say that I have traveled to stud dogs, I have also met a stud after a show at a third party's house ( me in the south and he from Scotland) I have also had a stud to my house. I find that sometimes a bitch is ready at the most inconvenient times, every situation should be judged on merit.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I agree that by and large the bitch visits the stud but have to say that my stud would not be bothered where he was.....if there was an in season bitch at her fertile time balancing on a clothes line in the middle of a busy High Street.....he would perform his services Having said that....he has recently lost his man bits.....wicked Mummy takes away his fun 

Its true that every stud is different. I have visited a few .......one stud owner was clueless and thought that letting them mate whilst running around the garden was best (maiden bitch that needed the security of being where she could see me but apparently our presence was putting the stud off)  I politely made my excuses and didnt return:blushing:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chichi said:


> I agree that by and large the bitch visits the stud but have to say that my stud would not be bothered where he was.....if there was an in season bitch at her fertile time balancing on a clothes line in the middle of a busy High Street.....he would perform his services Having said that....he has recently lost his man bits.....wicked Mummy takes away his fun
> 
> Its true that every stud is different. I have visited a few .......one stud owner was clueless and thought that letting them mate whilst running around the garden was best (maiden bitch that needed the security of being where she could see me but apparently our presence was putting the stud off)  I politely made my excuses and didnt return:blushing:


Yes - we have pre-conceptions - but when we actually start standing a dog at stud, the reality is often different - so far we've had one bitch visit us (400 mile round trip) and they stayed (I did know the owners beforehand and the owner is actually my stud mentor) - the other two visits we actually taken the dog to the bitch - one owner wanted to come to the house when I was on my own with 6 dogs - there was no way it could happen - they were close by so we went there - and produced a lovely litter of 10 pups 

We have a bitch coming to us next month(ish) season dependent- but if we struggle to get a mating (Maiden bitch) then I've no doubt we will return to her because for one thing it knocks nearly 150 miles off my mentors round trip


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## HeatherAnn (Jan 31, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> I'm afraid byb will only attract other byb!





rocco33 said:


> If you act like a byb you will attract byb.


Posting this twice because you didn't get the response you wanted first time? 



Sleeping_Lion said:


> By far and large the *done* thing is to take the bitch to the dog, I would never dream of asking a stud dog owner to come to me, they offer a stud service which should be knowledgeable and they should also have good practical experience, or they shouldn't be offering their dog at stud at all





Sleeping_Lion said:


> But that's what makes the difference between someone who is allowing their dog to be used in a positive way, and make a good contribution to the gene pool, and someone who hasn't a clue but is just allowing their dog to procreate, and perhaps they might make a bit of extra cash.
> [..] those stud dog owners who do offer their dog at stud and do so in an *ethical* manner, do not differ greatly in the type of service they provide.


I don't really understand why the venue of the mating is really such a big deal.

Just because someone is willing to be a bit more flexible doesn't make them a BYB.

Does it really make that much of a difference, if say, both parents are tested, both proven, both good specimens, and they go to the bitch's house <gasp>  I doubt it would effect the offspring...


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

HeatherAnn said:


> I don't really understand why the venue of the mating is really such a big deal.
> 
> Just because someone is willing to be a bit more flexible doesn't make them a BYB.
> 
> Does it really make that much of a difference, if say, both parents are tested, both proven, both good specimens, and they go to the bitch's house <gasp>  I doubt it would effect the offspring...


People have preconceptions - I did before I started standing my boy at stud,

I've had people want to come here when I am on my own with 6 dogs - it's simply not a realistic option.

Hence, if they want a mating during the days when my partner is working (within reasonable distances of course) - I will travel to them - we are doing that this very weekend as we happen to be at a show just a short distance from where the bitch lives.

I'm most certainly NOT a BYB - I've had just 3 litters in 6 years and have 3 generations of my own breeding here.

My bitches were hip and elbow scored, had clear eye certs and PRA tested, my 2nd bitch was also CNM clear and as it now transpires the sire was EIC clear (the test wasn't available at the time I had the litter)

My eldest (proven) stud dog is hip and elbow scored with excellent results, holds a current clear eye certificate, is genetically clear for PRA, CNM and EIC - he's also been coat colour tested because his mother carried yellow (he doesn't) in all with bringing him in - that little lost has cost me over £1500 = he has the daftest most adorable temperament you could possibly ask for - phased by absolutely nothing, is brilliant with kids (despite never having contact with them here as we have no kids in the family, and is shown regularly.

My younger (unproven) boy is shown very regularly, Crufts qualified for the last 2 years, is hip and elbow scored again with excellent results (same as my older boy as it happens) a current clear eye certificate and has just come back genetically clear for g-PRA (his mother was a carrier) - I will now colour coat test him and CNM and EIC test in due course.

My eldest currently has a litter of 10 on the ground and if everything goes to plan, he will have sired just 4 litters by the end of the year and my youngest boy, two litters.

As a member of the Assured Breeder Scheme - all my dogs are tested well above the schemes mandatory and recommended requirements and live in the home with us - any bitches he stands for must meet the minimum requirements of the AB Scheme which is hip-scored and holding a current clear eye certificate.

I am disabled and now have severely limited mobility, although I still work and it will be a cold day in hell before I give up showing however much agony I am in even after taking all my medication - I have just spent my weeks recent holiday in a wheelchair - I never thought it would come to this (and so quickly)

The one advantage I didn't anticipate with stud dog work is the position I usually find myself in actually relieves the pressure on my back which is fantastic - afterwards I get around 20 minutes pain free time and so far - this is the only time I am ever pain free.

I am most certainly not a BYB and my boys stand at very limited stud and I am available 24x7 for advice if required.

It just so happens that being on my own with my dogs during the day makes stud work impossible (not just difficult) - so if the need arises during this time, then, where possible, I will travel to the bitch owner.

My dogs share the house happily with 4 entire bitches - during seasons, my boys will happily spend time together sleeping in a 49 inch crate - I know of others who have to separate their boys when their girls are in season.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

HeatherAnn said:


> Posting this twice because you didn't get the response you wanted first time?
> 
> The venue may not be such a big deal as, while normal to bring the bitch to the sire (and there are valid reasons for this), there are times when it may not be appropriate.
> 
> ...


However, when someone takes their stud to the bitch without knowing the reason why the bitches owner wants this, it leaves big question marks. The OP assumed it was because they didn't have a car! Firstly, she should have known the reasons why, not just assumed them, and if the bitches owner didn't have transport to get to a stud dog, what arrangements were they making to get their bitch to the vet, including, and especially in an emergency. Not saying it's not possible, but these are all things that should have been established.


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## Orson (Nov 19, 2012)

Sounds like he wont even care if you sign the papers or not.... he just used you! what a knob!


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