# KC Dogs In Novelty Classes - Unfair?



## Bexx (Oct 26, 2013)

We had another show today, as usual it was KC classes followed by novelty classes. 

I feel like I might be out on my own on this one but I thought I'd post and see.

I think it's unfair that KC registered dogs can enter into the novelty classes. I know it may sound like I'm taking it too seriously but how are crossbred dogs going to have a chance against dogs that have been specifically bred for all the best features? We can't enter in the KC classes so why should they be allowed to enter in the novelty?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Novelty classes are just for fun and open to all, hence the class categories and therefore a particular breed is not being judged by breed standard. I find the fun classes are very much based on what the judge likes the look of regardless of the breed/type.


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## Bexx (Oct 26, 2013)

I understand that, and I get that it's a bit of fun that's why we do it too. But for example we went to a show last week and there was a gentleman there with some Beagles. Lovely dogs. He placed in every KC class he entered and some novelty. And he did the same again today, plus best in show! So that's 2 different judges.

I can see that it just looks like I'm jealous or a bit of sour grapes but I'm not. The one I went to today was like Crufts. People were there with trollies and tabletop grooming etc. Going into the ring and standing their dog, moving their legs, the teeny thin choke leads up around the ears. I was like "I thought this was supposed to be fun, it's 'novelty'" Maybe the judges we've been seen by just have a preference or something.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Bexx said:


> We had another show today, as usual it was KC classes followed by novelty classes.
> 
> I feel like I might be out on my own on this one but I thought I'd post and see.
> 
> I think it's unfair that KC registered dogs can enter into the novelty classes. I know it may sound like I'm taking it too seriously but how are crossbred dogs going to have a chance against dogs that have been specifically bred for all the best features? We can't enter in the KC classes so why should they be allowed to enter in the novelty?


Why do you think it is unfair?

Because they win and you do not?

Well life is not fair.

But I think you need to remember why such shows exist, to raise funds for charity.

If KC dogs were excluded from novelty classes there would be less money raised would there not?

Also just because a dog is KC registered it does not mean that it is a good specimen that would win/be placed at either Open or Championship level.

For some owners getting placed at fun shows in either pedigree or novelty classes are the only rosettes they are likely to win, why should the owners of pedigree dogs be penalised?

It is also a fact that most rescues nowadays are pedigree dogs not mutts and of course the owners of such dogs cannot enter Open or championship shows because they do not have the relevant papers to enable them to do this.

So would you remove this fun from them?

Also many exhibitors take their young dogs to fun shows as part of their training and acclimatisation to the show ring before they enter Opens etc and some dogs go through a horrible stage where they are not in the big rings but are shown in fun shows to keep their training up

Some shows, if they are very big, have separate judges for the pedigree classes and novelty ones but these are in the minority.

Of course if you think it is very unfair you can buy/rescue a pedigree dog?

If you are hell bent on winning rosettes there are other options open to you of course, you could compete in all KC licensed events (bar breed showing and Field Trials/Gundog Working Tests) with any sort of mutt/mongrel/crossbreed.


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## Bexx (Oct 26, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Why do you think it is unfair?
> 
> Because they win and you do not?
> 
> ...


I have said it's not a case of sour grapes or jealousy at all. In fact yesterday Poppy got 2nd place in best crossbreed and last week got reserve best crossbreed in show. She has placed in more things than I ever expected especially since we don't go to win. Poppy loves to meet other dogs and I prefer places like this where every dog is on a lead and not running at you in the park. I'm a nervous driver and it gets me out and about to places I wouldn't normally go. Yesterday we met a Great Dane called James, never seen one before he was magical.

It's not pedigree dogs I'm talking about it's KC registered ones. My friend rescued her Springer, full pedigree, ex sniffer dog. But she can't enter KC registered classes because the dog isn't registered. I understand that a lot of dogs in rescue are pedigree, I don't feel like there's a problem with them entering novelty classes. The problem I have is that KC registered dogs enter all their own classes (which crossbreed and pedigree/unregistered dogs cannot) and then they can enter the novelty classes too. If it's a novelty class that isn't specifically for crossbreeds I feel like registered dogs always win. The judge has already seen them in the KC classes they know they like them. If someone wanted to win rosettes should they have spent hundreds of pounds on a puppy that came with papers?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Bexx said:


> I have said it's not a case of sour grapes or jealousy at all. In fact yesterday Poppy got 2nd place in best crossbreed and last week got reserve best crossbreed in show. She has placed in more things than I ever expected especially since we don't go to win. Poppy loves to meet other dogs and I prefer places like this where every dog is on a lead and not running at you in the park. I'm a nervous driver and it gets me out and about to places I wouldn't normally go. Yesterday we met a Great Dane called James, never seen one before he was magical.
> 
> It's not pedigree dogs I'm talking about it's KC registered ones. My friend rescued her Springer, full pedigree, ex sniffer dog. But she can't enter KC registered classes because the dog isn't registered. I understand that a lot of dogs in rescue are pedigree, I don't feel like there's a problem with them entering novelty classes. The problem I have is that KC registered dogs enter all their own classes (which crossbreed and pedigree/unregistered dogs cannot) and then they can enter the novelty classes too. If it's a novelty class that isn't specifically for crossbreeds I feel like registered dogs always win. The judge has already seen them in the KC classes they know they like them. If someone wanted to win rosettes should they have spent hundreds of pounds on a puppy that came with papers?


I fail to understand your point.

Companion Dog Shows do not have classes for "KC registered dogs", they have classes for pedigree dogs

ANY dog can be registered with the KC, there are two registers, one for pure bred dogs and an activity register.

Ergo your dog can be KC registered.

There is no such thing as a KC registered class!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Your post reminds me of the saying "putting someone else's light out does not make yours shine any brighter"


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## Bexx (Oct 26, 2013)

Is there not? The ones I've been going to the stewards say 'registered' over the tannoy

Would you need to have papers for the pedigree class though, as proof?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Bexx said:


> Is there not? The ones I've been going to the stewards say 'registered' over the tannoy
> 
> Would you need to have papers for the pedigree class though, as proof?


No

What "stewards" say over the tannoy is up to them.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/activities/companion-dog-shows/organising-a-companion-dog-show/

The specific rules are here

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/352979/specific_show_regulations_for_companion_dog_shows.pdf


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

It's also worth bearing in mind that many of the pedigree dogs you will see may not be KC registered hence their showing at these fun shows. Just because the Beagle guy won doesn't mean his dogs are registered or good examples of the breed. 

You don't need papers for the pedigree classes, no. So not sure what you mean by registered classes? Perhaps the stewards just mean those registered to show I.e those that have signed up in the morning and paid their money as with everyone else.


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

I think, once a dog has a Stud Book Number, it can't be entered in the pedigree classes at a Companion Show.
So for some people, if they want to join in with the fun and support a good cause, they can only enter the Novelty Classes.


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

i have a kc poodle that i show and a non kc poodle. i enter both in pedigree classes. the only classes i've ever had to have proof of my dog being registered is for an actual companion dog class. and it's my non kc dog that i've got signed up as a member of the cdc. at kc run pedigree shows dogs have to be six months old, so i had to enter my kc dog in fun/novelty classes so we could practice for her real shows. my scruffy poodle does better then her at fun shows, and if there's a cockerpoo in the ring she never gets placed. and everyshow i've been to has had it's own crossbreed class so it's not like crossbreeds miss out.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I enter my crossbreed in numerous novelty classes and shes beaten pedigrees 

And yesterday I entered my pedigree in a novelty class ( handsome boy ) and he didn't place and the dog that won was a crossbreed !


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I remember entering a companion dog show with my Golden Retriever who won two pedigree classes because the judge liked her. I remember my mum saying afterwards there was a girl giving me the evils because her dog had not won. Why so much fuss over a small show? Personally I don't do too many of these fun dog show classes because the judge is often inundated with many types of dogs. But there is no difference between a x breed and a Golden Retriever beauty wise if you entered in waggiest tail for example.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I enter my crossbreed more at fun dog shows than taking my pedigree to open shows currently as he is having issues but I partly like going to ones with a best trick class as I much prefer to do something like that


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

A fun or exemption dog show is exactly that. A show in which any dog can be entered, not some dogs, whilst others are excluded.

The judges at these shows are not Breed Specialists, but more likely local 'celebrities' or dignitaries. They're not going to be judging conformation or Breed type, but tend to pick the dogs they like.

These events are normally in aid of charity, so the more entries they can get, the better.

It would be very sad if some pedigree dogs were excluded because some exhibitors of crossbreeds are over-competitive.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I took Starla to a companion show once and she won best condition bitch out of about twenty In the class. I thought she was in the best condition but looking back on it later I think she was the only dog that would fit in the dog bed that was awarded as prize. Best in Show went to an extremely overweight smelly dog but there you go.

I went to another companion dog show with a so called friend and Starla came 2nd in best terrier. That show was to raise money for a hospice and that was why I was happy to enter and put my money to good use. My "friend" didn't win anything that day and she said that the handling was all wrong. On the way out she had a go at the person running the show telling them that their judges were rubbish and the handling was all wrong and she wouldn't be supporting them again. I told her to take a chill pill and that it wasn't an important show and they were raising money for sick kids and she had missed the point completely. Once I dropped her home I told her that her behaviour was disgusting and I didn't want to be associated with her again.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Firedog said:


> I took Starla to a companion show once and she won best condition bitch out of about twenty In the class. I thought she was in the best condition but looking back on it later I think she was the only dog that would fit in the dog bed that was awarded as prize. Best in Show went to an extremely overweight smelly dog but there you go.
> 
> I went to another companion dog show with a so called friend and Starla came 2nd in best terrier. That show was to raise money for a hospice and that was why I was happy to enter and put my money to good use. My "friend" didn't win anything that day and she said that the handling was all wrong. On the way out she had a go at the person running the show telling them that their judges were rubbish and the handling was all wrong and she wouldn't be supporting them again. I told her to take a chill pill and that it wasn't an important show and they were raising money for sick kids and she had missed the point completely. Once I dropped her home I told her that her behaviour was disgusting and I didn't want to be associated with her again.


Yeah I hate that  Alot of these fun shows are to raise money for charity so even if your dog doesn't win a rosette you still take the best dog home and its all for a good cause.

I am doing quite a lot of fun dog shows this year as generally the atmosphere is nice and again its all for charity. I was planning to do the odd open show with Bigby but think I am going to wait until next year where *fingers crossed* he is much more matured.


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## Caribou (Jan 27, 2016)

I have opinions on this! (no change there then)

I actually agree with @Bexx to an extent. Mainly because in some cases the pure breed dogs just have more opportunity than the other dogs. If they enter two contests they have two chances to be judged instead of one, two shots at a rosette. It also means there's less competition for them in the KC event and more competition for the crosses in the Novelty events.

Does that reasoning make me overly competitive? Probably. Obviously I support these shows because they are fun for me and my dog, and often they are raising money for a charity so they're a good cause as well. I don't go expecting a rosette, but I do like going home with one and adding it to Max's collection. Of course I like it when someone recognises my boy as the best at something . Perhaps I am too competitive, but I'm not convinced that it's a bad thing to be competitive (in a gracious, grown up, sportsmanlike manner obviously).

However, most of the shows I go to tend to be little village fetes and so they have things like 'Best Pure Breed' and 'Best Cross-Breed' and so all's fair in the end. And like someone else said, usually these shows don't have a professional judge, or even a judge who knows much about dogs.

I recently went to two events that did have both a KC and Novelty segment where I thought this was handled very well.

In the first, they ran the Pedigree/KC classes at the same time in an adjacent ring to the Novelty classes. Dogs can't physically be in two places at once so where there was some overlap many Pedigree dogs didn't attend the Novelty classes (which worked out well because there were just too many in both rings, it was a very busy show). It didn't totally exclude the pedigree dogs from entering the novelty classes where they could, though, which is nice since I don't think the Pedigree list had things like 'waggiest tail' or 'best trick' so they were still able to enter the 'fun' stuff where looks don't matter as much.

In the second, the organisers asked someone random without doggy knowledge or bias to be the Novelty Class judge (in this case it was the DJ/MC of the associated village fete's wife). I think this worked because the judge then had no real expectations or standards to work to besides what they thought of as handsome/pretty/cute. Yes, this is very subjective and limited, but no more so than breed standards imo.

As for cross-breeds having a chance against pure breeds... I can't say on average that pure breeds win consistently over cross breeds. It's my experience that you can never tell and it's about 50/50 from memory who wins categories like 'handsomest boy' or 'prettiest girl' or 'best in show'. You often can tell by the end of a long show what sort of dog the judge likes best, and where their bias lies, but the next judge will be different and every dog stands a chance.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I actually like the fun shows because they aren't stingy on the rosettes and the money usually goes to a good cause. I have only entered three and two of those were supporting a rescue and naturally a rescue dog won and I didn't expect anything less.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> Yeah I hate that  Alot of these fun shows are to raise money for charity so even if your dog doesn't win a rosette you still take the best dog home and its all for a good cause.
> 
> I am doing quite a lot of fun dog shows this year as generally the atmosphere is nice and again its all for charity. I was planning to do the odd open show with Bigby but think I am going to wait until next year where *fingers crossed* he is much more matured.


Talking of Open Shows, I met Bumblebee and Trojka a couple of months back.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

They aren't actually competing on the same basis as in a pedigree class - often (not always) - the judges for the Novelty classes will be for up and coming judges, or people with a keen interest in rehoming / celebrities / vets interested in raising money for charity.

The class titles by their very nature suggest FUN - waggiest tail, best sit, best stand, best handlers best condition, dog most like their owner, prettiest bitch, most handsome dog, dog the judge would most like to take home, sometimes fancy dress and lots more other options 

I'd say the majority of above classes all dogs and handlers can compete on an even playing field - OK - Best stand MIGHT be unkind - but it can give exhibitors serious and otherwise to bring out oldies (one of mine has a poor backend and is getting on) - she loves a show - but no way could I put her into a pedigree class anywhere - yet she very much is - and is exceptionally pretty and has won a lot of classes for things like "prettiest bitch" - but despite in her prime showing a promising show career - she couldn't compete under the criteria sought for any pedigree class.

The winners of the pedigree classes are usually not allowed to enter the novelty classes - they are fun for exhibitors. fun and a learning experience for new judges and often raise money for charity - a nice day out and it means I can take or more different dogs compared to "normal showing" - if I ever get back to it on any great scale


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

At companion shows any pedigree dog can enter the pedigree classes whether KC or not. Not all dogs that are registered with the KC are show dogs I have a german spitz Bear who is an inch oversized so can not be shown but II can take him to companion shows. The chances of the judge knowing what he is is very unlikely and he rarely gets placed the same with my italian greyhounds the judges think they are undersized whippets even when you put them in the toy dog class.

On the other hand I have seen some dogs in the cross bred class that do not look like a cross bred I have a whippet cross italian greyhound and often get told I can not put him in the cross bred class as he is just a small whippet I have to explain he is a cross between 2 breeds that are quite similaar in looks. I sometimes put my pedigrees into fun classes such as handsome dog but its for charity and to be honest its more often a cross bred that wins


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

why shouldnt they enter its all about making money for a charity afterall !


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