# Buying a breeding queen - need breeder's advice



## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

So I kinda already feel like you will all be like "NO" but it is bugging me whether I should do it or not.

I am buying a new breeding queen and have fallen in love with this one girl. She is exactly the colour I am looking for (and I can say that I am very specific about what I want so this colour is not that easy to come across), great type, she has a great pedigree (I have studied the lines), comes from a nice breeder... Everything is great. BUT here's the catch - someone has already asked for a "temporary reservation". And I am pretty sure that, upon seeing her, they will take her (it's also some breeder that's interested), there's about 1% I feel she'll be available after a few days when they meet. 

Would you be terribly, terribly isulted if you were in this situation as the breeder of the girl and were offered 20% more for her? Would you then even consider giving it to the person who would do that? Just reading this it makes me feel like a horrible person but I just don't know, it is hard to come across a girl like this, the only other one I did find so far was too closely related to my male for my liking and had even similar lines as my other girl in, which well... It would be good to add some new lines in. 

I can either wait, and risk that the person viewing it will take her, which is very likely to happen... Or risk offending the breeder (although I will try to explain is as best as I can to her why this girl would be such an asset to my programme and explain that I am not trying to objectify her etc.), maybe even to the point that even if the other breeder, for some weird reason, doesn't end up taking her, this breeder won't want me to have her  But if there is only a few chances, that this way I could get her... Then it would be worth trying.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I wouldn't be offended (but I'm not the sort who is easily offended anyway) but I wouldn't, as the breeder, let down someone else because another had come along offering more money. And quite frankly I wouldn't want to buy a kitten from a breeder who would let me have a kitten because I'd offered more money.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> And quite frankly I wouldn't want to buy a kitten from a breeder who would let me have a kitten because I'd offered more money.


I have thought about it as well because personally, if I were the kitten's breeder in this situation, I would say no. Even though the contract wouldn't been signed yet and no money exchanged as is in this case. But I can sort of justify it because, this breeder is coming from a country that is currently known to have recession issues, and I am sure more money to take care of her kittens would do her good, so if she said yes, I would think the fact that she wants to give her cats the best is the reason behind it. Although, writing this, I feel like it is just justifying.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Not really offended but it would bother me that someone thought breeding was just about money and if they offer more they can get whatever they want.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

HeartofClass said:


> <snip>
> But I can sort of justify it because, this breeder is coming from a country that is currently known to have recession issues, and I am sure more money to take care of her kittens would do her good, so if she said yes, I would think the fact that she wants to give her cats the best is the reason behind it. Although, writing this, I feel like it is just justifying.


Sorry that's not a justification to me - it comes over to me as patronising.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

^Actually, you are correct... Jesus, who am I to be judging whether a person is short of money or not.  Ah, the lengths I would go to  I might just wait and hope that the other breeder changes their mind then...


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Ive had people offer me more money to swap over the kitten they came to view for another, just told them bye!


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> Not really offended but it would bother me that someone thought breeding was just about money and if they offer more they can get whatever they want.


Of course I don't think that - if it were about money then surely I wouldn't go to such lengths to offer more for a breeding cat whose already the price of 4 pet kittens. I would lose quite a lot actually even in the future, and there are many other breeding cats available with more regular price (but aren't what I'm looking for). And I surely don't think that this breeder would let me have just because of more money... But I do think that I can offer this girl a really nice life. (Just to clarify, I appreciate all of you guys' opinion and can see how it might come across like this, but it's far from truth).


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

I know this question is for breeders but I would say nothing ventured, nothing gained. What's the worst that can happen? You looked like you really, really wanted this girl? Is the breeder going to be offended....I would think he/she wouldn't be just assured that you are a passionate about the breed.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If someone tried to gazump another breeder in the manner you suggest they'd never stand a chance of getting a kitten from me. It may be different for different breeds or in different countries but as far as I'm concerned they'd join my personal permanent blacklist. Why would I want to work with someone who would do this? I might be next on their list for a knife in the back.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

out of principle, I actually would refuse to sell to someone who tried to get first grab at a kitten just by offering more money. I don't like that someone thinks they can get what they want just by throwing more money into the equasion.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Thank you guys. I guess I knew this all along, I just didn't want to admit it to myself. Kinda let feelings and my wishes get in the way of my mind. I wanted to at least tell the breeder how good of a life the girl would have with me and ask them to rethink, but now I guess I will just wait and hope for a change of mind from the other breeder rather than try to "steal" her from someone else who might want her just as much.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lunabuma said:


> I know this question is for breeders but I would say nothing ventured, nothing gained. What's the worst that can happen? You looked like you really, really wanted this girl? Is the breeder going to be offended....I would think he/she wouldn't be just assured that you are a passionate about the breed.


So I should sell my kittens (pet or breed) to the highest bidder? No. First come, first served. Look at the mess the housing market got into when gazumping was going on.

If I was the breeder I would be offended and it certainly wouldn't increase the buyers chance of getting the kitten, it would probably terminate it.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

HeartofClass said:


> <snip>
> a breeding cat whose already the price of 4 pet kittens.
> <snip>


Jez what a markup. My breeding girl cost me the same as a pet would have from that breeder, and by a large other breeders do that though they are of course very fussy about who will get a registered active girl. Boys do cost more, and are even harder to get.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I register with FIFe and am based in EU, I know most breeders of my breed based in the EU that register with FIFe and WCF and I can assure you I haven't met anyone who would sell pet kittens for the same price as breeding kittens. As for who will get the breeding cats, most breeders fall into two extremes - breeders who are extra fussy and won't sell breeding cats even to a long-time, well known good breeder and breeders who will sell to just about anyone as long as it's not a first-time breeder. Even all the breeders of other breeds that I know from my country do it like this (so I know it's not breed-specific) - one price for pet, one price for show/breed - even for same kitten. I would have thought this is completely the norm had I not been a member of this forum. And I must say I agree with your logic more - I can say that it costs me the same to rear pet kittens and those who will be breeding kittens, so... I would rather be extra fussy about who will get it, rather than set up a really high price. But it is the norm.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Coud you not go on the waiting list for the next litter instead?


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Well, it will not be the same male. So the colours will be different.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

HeartofClass said:


> I can assure you I haven't met anyone who would sell pet kittens for the same price as breeding kittens.


Doesn't usually happen here either, breeding cats tend to be 2-3 times pet price. Show neuters tend to be the same price as pets, but there are breeders who charge more for them also.

Have you spoken to the breeder, is she even willing to sell you a breeding cat? Ask about future plans, maybe she can recommend another breeder with the lines and colours you're after.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

If it is meant to be, it will be. If it isn't, perhaps that girl, when she is bred, will have just the right color for you and you can buy _her_ kitten from the breeder who has her, instead.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I suppose you have your answer already. I agree with the others. 

Here, breeding cats from good breeders go for the same price as pet kittens. If selling to a foreign country, breeders usually charge much more (reason is because foreign breeders also sell to 'us' for such high prices). Silly but that's how it is


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> So I should sell my kittens (pet or breed) to the highest bidder? No. First come, first served. Look at the mess the housing market got into when gazumping was going on.
> 
> If I was the breeder I would be offended and it certainly wouldn't increase the buyers chance of getting the kitten, it would probably terminate it.


So you would say no, but would you avoid the buyer in future?


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> Have you spoken to the breeder, is she even willing to sell you a breeding cat? Ask about future plans, maybe she can recommend another breeder with the lines and colours you're after.


Of course, I was assured I would have had it had this other breeder not reserved it. Ah recommendations - in this small breeding world I have researched so much I know 99% of catteries that have the possibility of this colour. Either they aren't planning a mating, I know how they keep their cats and won't buy from them, I don't like the type, I don't like the pedigree, the breeder doesn't health test parents, or the kitten is too far away (and my standard for this are low, since this girl is about 3 hours plane flying away). This girl would've been perfect. But I'll guess I'll have to wait along. I don't really believe in faith explanations e.g. "if it's meant to be it'll happen". I was simply too late, and will now have to look elsewhere. It happens. The best advice I have been given is to be patient, sometimes it can take A LONG time to find exactly what you're looking for.


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

This is somewhat ironic after the kitten buyers thread, no?


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I don't think so. Buying a kitten as a pet, the only thing that would really matter to me, is the personality and health. Colour would really just be optional. Me not selling kittens to pet buyers who are "THAT colour or no kitten" is really a personal choice, so. As a breeder, it is important to me to add new lines, as well as the colours to my breeding programme. It is about moving forward as a breeder. I wouldn't question breeders looking to buy a speficic colour with me (if all other boxes tick).

And unfortunately, it is also to some extent due to the buyers' demands, as I am having extreme difficulties, as well as other breeders I know, finding homes for solid black kittens. And most kittens go to pet homes, after all. It would be pointless breeding to me having to lower my standards for who can get my kitten because some of them are less wanted because of the colour. It is easy to roll your eyes not knowing the whole picture.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Ah recommendations -* in this small breeding world* I have researched so much I know 99% of catteries that have the possibility of this colour. Either they aren't planning a mating, I know how they keep their cats and won't buy from them, I don't like the type, I don't like the pedigree, the breeder doesn't health test parents,


Note the bit I've emboldened. Your words and ones you would do well to keep in mind. If you get a name for trying to do the dirty to other breeders you'll find your choices become even more limited.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I have already made my decision to not do it. It's a bit frustrating, but I'll keep looking and waiting. Indeed reputation means a lot among breeders, besides trying to do what I was thinking of being immoral. The irony is, had this happened to me with someone purchasing one of my girls for breeding, I would never accept it. Yet I came so far to think about doing it. Glad I posted here first


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Actually I do find it ironic too after the kitten thread. I'm always on the look out for that perfect pet cat - a long haired black tortie - no white. I won't accept anything else - as a pet buyer - and I have my reasons for it. 

As a breeder I am actually less fussy as I can always make what I want given the right genes. 

But anyway - offering more as you know now if not the way to go. You will most likely be blacklisted and poof one breeding career up in smoke.

And in this economic climate show me one EU country not in recession or about to head back there!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lunabuma said:


> So you would say no, but would you avoid the buyer in future?


I expect so.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Frankly I cannot see how one could even compare the two things. While I won't buy a breeding queen if not the colour I am looking for, I (as said) also won't buy if she doesn't fit my other criteria: good pedigree, tested parents, good breeder, personality, etc. People who were trying to buy a kitten from me were seemingly only interested in colour (no questions asked about anything other than that). Even in that thread I mentioned that I had no issue with pet buyers prefering a certain colour as long as they take other things into account.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Frankly I cannot see how one could even compare the two things.


I can and I am. Just because you have good reasons while other people looking for a kitten don't in your eyes doesn't make your reasons somehow better. They're just different.

In breeding we don't always get what we want. Sometimes we have to work for it. A great breeder will choose the best of type over colour any day and work the line down a couple of generations if it's colour they want.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

It's not that they didn't have good reasons, it's that the colour was the only criteria they had. I am not saying my reasons why I want a certain colour are better than theirs, I am saying that I care about things other than colour, and they didn't. That's why they didn't get a kitten, and another family who are also into a particular colour will, because it's not the only thing that matters to them.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

HeartofClass said:


> It's not that they didn't have good reasons, it's that the colour was the only criteria they had.


It originally seemed to be the only criteria the people who had the cinnamon boy from Lola's first seemed to have. However they turned out to be delightful once I'd got past the awful text messages onto the phone, and he is happily settled in a lovely home. Of course they did have other criteria but not ones expressed until we actually met when they visited.


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

It reminds me of a character from 'Charlie and the Chocolate Factory' this particular girl wants things and her dad just throws money hand over fist to get what the girl wants. As somebody who has previously been gazumped in the housing market and dealt with a horrendous vendor who wanted to start a bidding war on another property, I can tell you that it is a horrendous experience. I wouldn't want to go through that again with something I had my heart set on.


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## may (Nov 2, 2007)

As a breeder i would want the best home for my kitten first and foremost,
Just because the colour is what you want should not be at the top of your list when buying a breeding queen,
there is so much more important things consider ,
offering more money is not the way to go that would put me off,
as said by havoc i 100% agree

Quote havoc
Note the bit I've emboldened. Your words and ones you would do well to keep in mind. If you get a name for trying to do the dirty to other breeders you'll find your choices become even more limited.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Lunabuma said:


> I know this question is for breeders but I would say nothing ventured, nothing gained. What's the worst that can happen? You looked like you really, really wanted this girl? Is the breeder going to be offended....I would think he/she wouldn't be just assured that you are a passionate about the breed.


Difference between breeders and pet buyers I think, as pet people didn't see the issue of throwing money at the breeder in this similar recent thread
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/384601-willing-fate-intervene.html


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I got the girl. :blush:


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## anachronism (Jan 30, 2014)

HeartofClass said:


> I got the girl. :blush:


Great news  when do we get piccies?

To add my two penneth, the impression I got from your post was not that you expected to get the cat for offering more, more that you really wanted her and were looking for some glimmer it would work. Obviously "meant to be"


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Yes, thinking about it now I was just really desperate to get her. In the end the breeder had a change of mind about one girl she wanted to keep so the other breeder decided to take that other girl. Obviously meant to be!! 

Well she will be ready to come to me probably sometime not sooner than in march, but I can share some photos the breeder sent me! So far it seems she is develping really nice to type and knowing her lines I can imagine her in the future, but you never know. It is a shame that breeders here have kittens already reserved so young because you can hardly tell at such a young age how they will develope, but I had to take the risk, you have to. Her personality is also to die for! I've seen some videos.

So she is a blue-cream tortie, possibly also silver (time will tell), "carries" golden, carries colour-point and "carries" marble. I would also go with black tortie, but none ticked all the other boxes like her. That's what was also so important to me and why she was so hard to come across (the things she is "carrying" and can be expressed in her babies).

(edited)


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Oooh carries CP. Is she a NFC? I've never seen a CP NFC.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

How fortunate for you :thumbup: She looks adorable and such a pretty colour


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

messyhearts said:


> Oooh carries CP. Is she a NFC? I've never seen a CP NFC.


Siberian I believe. Or possible just drop-dead-gorgeous (it's a real breed !) You won't ever see a CP NFC


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

HeartofClass said:


>


:001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

messyhearts said:


> Oooh carries CP. Is she a NFC? I've never seen a CP NFC.


I don't think NFOs are allowed to be colour-pointed. And I'm not familiar with how they look as kittens, but wouldn't that be a horrible profile for a NFO?  She's a Siberian.

Thanks, lymorelynn! I am so excited! Can't wait to see how she will grow up to be. :001_wub:


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