# Spaying during pregnancy



## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Hello, I took my cat to the vet again yesterday as when I went on Friday, I was told she definitely had kittens in her but as soon as we got back from the vet she went in heat and my male had been mounting her constantly over the weekend because my boyfriend and flatmate kept forgetting to keep them seperated while I was working. I had asked for a pregnancy scan on Friday, which I was told was not necessary as it was a definite thing, but as I was concerned by her sudden and timely heat, I insisted on one yesterday. The scan has shown that there are no kittens, and I'm gutted and relieved at once, and gathering the £120 plus the £80 for the anasthetic test to get both cats spayed/neutered ASAP, but now I'm worried that she's become pregnant from him mounting her all weekend. I'm furious as I would have gotten her spayed during their cancelled appointment on Friday if they had done the pregnancy scan and told me she wasn't pregnant. I honestly don't think I could go through with aborting the kittens and she seems to be out of her heat now and I'm hoping he''s still not experienced enough to have properly mated with her. I'm not outright saying no to aborting kittens if they are there, I just can't stand the thought of them suffering. (Yes I'm very aware of the overpopulation issue).


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## Dogs_Health_Problems (Sep 14, 2010)

Well, if your cat does get pregnant, then I would agree in keeping the kittens; aborting them is too cruel, unless it endangers the life of the mother. Sometimes, errors like what happened to you upsets me; these guys should be able to know better than anyone else.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Gratch said:


> Hello, I took my cat to the vet again yesterday as when I went on Friday, I was told she definitely had kittens in her but as soon as we got back from the vet she went in heat and my male had been mounting her constantly over the weekend because my boyfriend and flatmate kept forgetting to keep them seperated while I was working. I had asked for a pregnancy scan on Friday, which I was told was not necessary as it was a definite thing, but as I was concerned by her sudden and timely heat, I insisted on one yesterday. The scan has shown that there are no kittens, and I'm gutted and relieved at once, and gathering the £120 plus the £80 for the anasthetic test to get both cats spayed/neutered ASAP, but now I'm worried that she's become pregnant from him mounting her all weekend. I'm furious as I would have gotten her spayed during their cancelled appointment on Friday if they had done the pregnancy scan and told me she wasn't pregnant. I honestly don't think I could go through with aborting the kittens and she seems to be out of her heat now and I'm hoping he''s still not experienced enough to have properly mated with her. I'm not outright saying no to aborting kittens if they are there, I just can't stand the thought of them suffering. (Yes I'm very aware of the overpopulation issue).


Don't even think about her being pregnant now. Even if the cat has caught this time there are no kittens yet, just a bunch of cells.

The best thing you can do for her now is get her spayed, and very soon. Please don't wait, even if it means talking to the vet and getting it done in the next few days ... pay them over a period of time, remind them that if he had done the scan or whatever you wouldn't be in this position.



Dogs_Health_Problems said:


> Well, if your cat does get pregnant, then I would agree in keeping the kittens; aborting them is too cruel, unless it endangers the life of the mother. Sometimes, errors like what happened to you upsets me; these guys should be able to know better than anyone else.


Don't be so ridiculous! What is cruel is replying with daft advice like that which will result in more moggies pregnancies, which in turn will result in more kitten/cats being left at rescue centre in favour of people taking on unwanted offspring of a moggie pregnancy.

I'm going to re quote what I wrote/typed in your original thread Gretch. I feel it is important you read it carefully, and then make your decision. I will say though, you don't need to answer the question about finances now, you clearly do not have the funds to raise a healthy litter without relying on luck if you're struggling to pay for neutering!



Aurelia said:


> I know you mean well but have you thought this through properly?
> 
> You may well still have time to get her spayed. Then if you can still take the two kittens you claim you will if you let her have kittens ... take yourself to the local cat rescue and take 2 of those poor kitties home with you. Then advise your husbands mother and grandmother to do the same.  That way you are providing a home for cats/kittens that are already here and in need of a loving home.
> 
> ...


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

If you spay her now/within the next couple of weeks you won't be 'aborting kittens'. Implanation/development of feotuses, due to how a cat's pregnany develops, does not happen until a few weeks after mating. Much safer, easier and better all round for all concerned to spay her asap.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Don't be so ridiculous! What is cruel is replying with daft advice like that which will result in more moggies pregnancies, which in turn will result in more kitten/cats being left at rescue centre in favour of people taking on unwanted offspring of a moggie pregnancy.


Making comments like this simply because people do not approve of spaying during pregnancy, is quite uncalled for. Speaking for myself, there are no circumstances, short of serious danger to the life of the mother, or serious welfare issues of the type we simply do not see in the UK, in which I would agree to having a pregnant cat spayed.

As for your costs, all I can say is, use a cheaper brand of cat litter - and a cheaper vet. Quite how on earth it is possible to spend £110 for one simple vet consultation, or £160 on cat litter for four kittens, is a total mystery to me. My cat litter (Tesco premium lightweight) is £3.60 a bag. With two litters on the go at the moment (three kittens plus Mum, four kittens plus two Mums), plus other cats using litter, I am getting through perhaps a bag and a half a week - approx £50 over the time that a litter is likely to be using a tray, but this £50 covers two litters, their mothers (who would be using litter anyway) and other indoor cats. Cat litter is such a small expense for me that I don't even count it separately. I do not like the practice, common on this forum, of scaremongering every time anyone talks about breeding a moggy. It is espcially ironic because as soon as anyone sees a litter of moggies advertised for £50 the cry goes up of "only in it for the money" - from just the same people who claim that they make a loss at £400 a kitten.

Moggies are usually sold unvaccinated at 8 weeks. Vaccinated at 12 weeks would be better but is extremely uncommon.

To the original poster, the facts are these: 1. Cats do not ovulate until 48 hours after mating. 2. If you did not hear a crescendo of growling, followed by the girl screaming and then rolling rapidly all over the place, she probably has not been mated. 3. In my experience of breeding (18 years and, at a quick estimate, perhaps 70 or 80 litters) I reckon that, _if nothing goes wrong_, I spend about £80 per kitten on total costs including vaccinations and microchip by the time the kittens are 13 week old (this does not include any stud fees). The caveats on that are 1. I have a small breed 2. I do not live in the most expensive part of the country and 3. If things do go wrong you can quickly be into a bill of £800 (more if your vet passes emergencies onto one of these extortionate emergency cover practices). This has happened to me three times, with a further couple of times when the bill has been around £400 and perhaps half a dozen times when the bill has been £100 - £200.

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Making comments like this simply because people do not approve of spaying during pregnancy, is quite uncalled for.


.... if Aurelia's comment was "quite uncalled for", then what on earth was DHP's comment? ("aborting them is too cruel"). Surely that is equally uncalled for?

Moggy over-population is such a serious problem in the UK, I am not in the least surprised vets routinely perform abortions on pregnant cats. If they didn't the already bursting-at-the-seems shelters would be even more overflowing, and even more adult cats would be getting put down every day. So for that reason alone I support it. IF however the situation ever changes, and rescue centres are sitting empty and adults cats have an abundance of homes to go to... then yes I would change my opinion. In the mean time, in the current situation, abortion is a necessary evil, and it is also the advice the OP would be given by many vets here.

As for the £110 for a bout of conjuctivitis in kittens... well to be fair... we don't actually *know* that Aurelia kittens only had one simple consultation with the vet, that's just your assumption. All we know is her kittens had one bout of conjuctivitis. It wouldn't surpise me in the least if all the kittens had to have the initial consultation, then a follow-up after the treatment was finished. And it's highly possible that one (or more) kitten wasn't completely cured and had to be seen a third time. So under those circumstances (which I have experienced myself a good few times with conjunctivitis in kittens) I really don't find a price tag of £110 for a litter of 4 or 5 kittens at all surprising. In fact I would say £110 is a very fair price for a bout of conjuctivitis in an average sized litter and it is more or less what I would expect to pay. And no way am I talking the expenisve out of hours service of the 24hrs vets practices... one kitten for one consultation would cost me £110 (125 euros to be precise) at those types of 24 hr practices... consultation fees alone for 4 or 5 kittens would cost me about 250-300 quid at such practices. Medication and follow up consultations would of course come over and above the consultation costs. And these prices here in NL are definitely very similar to those charged in the SE of England. So all in all, I find it pretty sound advice to quote around £110 for a bout of conjunctivitis in a litter of kittens. The different vets my different family members use in Scotland, they would also expect to pay around 100-150 quid in this instance too.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Having had a case of persistent conjunctivitis in my most recent fosters, i can wholeheartedly say that a bill of £110 could be considered cheap!


As for the speying...

Implantation of the does not occur for somewhere around 2 weeks (10-14 days) after ovulation. Cats do not ovulate until approximatly 1-2 days after she has been mated with fertilisation happening sometime in the next 24 hours. 

If you get her speyed in the next few days there are no kittens to speak of, there isnt even any foetus'. The embryo isnt formed from a ball of cells until implantation takes place when "specialised" cells become the placenta, and others form up. At implantation the embryo measures approx 1mm.

Up until 22 days the embryo will measure between 10mm and 24mm, however after this time the risks of speying increase due to the extra blood vessels and enlarged uterous. Until later in pregnancy though these risks are still minimal.

I'm certainly not against speying a pregnant cat!!! The over population of the uk is ridiculous.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Gratch.....Ask yourself _honestly_ Do you really want kittens....are you in a position to either keep the offspring your self or find really good *permanent* homes with friends or family? Otherwise if you let her have kittens just think of the possibly bleak future they will have if no one wants them.
If you cannot guarantee homes for any kittens then I honestly think you should spay her now, 'pregnant' or not.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> .... if Aurelia's comment was "quite uncalled for", then what on earth was DHP's comment? ("aborting them is too cruel"). Surely that is equally uncalled for?


Some of us believe that. Are we not allowed to express it? Abortion kills, the same applies whatever you are aborting. I would guess that with a fully developed kitten (spaying at such a late stage is dangerous and many vets will not do it but there are some so-called rescues who practice it routinely) I suppose the effect on the kitten is exactly the same as drowning. if the one is cruel, so is the other. Abortion in early pregnancy is done on a non-sentient being and so the ethical considerations are not the same. Some of us, nevertheless, do not believe in killing non-sentient beings without good reason, whatever the species.



> Moggy over-population is such a serious problem in the UK, I am not in the least surprised vets routinely perform abortions on pregnant cats. If they didn't the already bursting-at-the-seems shelters would be even more overflowing, and even more adult cats would be getting put down every day. So for that reason alone I support it. IF however the situation ever changes, and rescue centres are sitting empty and adults cats have an abundance of homes to go to... then yes I would change my opinion. In the mean time, in the current situation, abortion is a necessary evil, and it is also the advice the OP would be given by many vets here.


I think the problem with shelters is far more to do with their ridiculous over-fussiness about who is allowed to adopt their animals. We are not in the position they are in, in Eastern Europe, for example. Kittens can find homes and inevitably do. Now, with certain breeds of dog (SBTs), the UK situation is becoming very serious indeed, but we have not yet reached that stage with cats. I suppose it could happen if the recession continues much longer, but we are not there yet. We will know we are there when "real" rescues (ie. not the big boys who do one thing for the camera and another thing when the cameras are not rolling) start routinely euthanising healthy young black and black and white cats despite lining up their adoption standards with what most people would consider reasonable. If anyone can honestly tell me they know a shelter in the UK that is doing that, I will change my view (after asking a few questions of course).



> As for the £110 for a bout of conjuctivitis in kittens... well to be fair... we don't actually *know* that Aurelia kittens only had one simple consultation with the vet, that's just your assumption.


She said one lot of eye drops and one lot of antibiotics. Perhaps her vet charged separately for every kitten. It seems very high to me.



> In fact I would say £110 is a very fair price for a bout of conjuctivitis in an average sized litter and it is more or less what I would expect to pay.


Let me give you some advice, then, which will save you money if your laws are similar to ours. Chloramphenicol eye ointment 

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Implantation of the does not occur for somewhere around 2 weeks (10-14 days) after ovulation.


Do you have a reference for this? These are the figures for humans (and on the long side for humans too), I would have expected the time in cats to be a lot shorter. I'm not saying you're wrong, I am simply rather surprised.

Liz


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Hope BBM won't mind me jumping in but, strangely enough, was just researching this earlier to make sure I had my facts correct on a comment I'd made here!

Cat Pregnancy Stages - Fetal Development until Day of Birth

Not sure if that link will work; probably not, knowing me. Surprisingly difficult to find much on-line at all that didn't addle my brain with science.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

PawPeds

here is another, but this is a nice reprint from an article on pubmed

and another... although in less detail. It skips the majority of the period between 6-20 days

Felis catus, domestic cat at GeoChemBio: life cycle, developmental stages, embryology

And yep liz i know what you mean about it being strange that an animal with such a short pregnancy to delay implantation for so long!

there are a couple of others with the info hidden in the jargen which ive found outside of pubmed

http://www.uni-due.de/denker/PDF Dokumente/The Role of TrophoblastDependent and.pdf
http://www.uni-due.de/denker/PDF Dokumente/Denker et al 1978 Studies I Cleavage.pdf

both of these are studies relating to the embryology were not looking at the subject specifically but the info is there anecdotally as findings in the study.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Thank you

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Some of us believe that. Are we not allowed to express it? Abortion kills, the same applies whatever you are aborting.


Lizward, of course you're allowed to state your opinion on abortion (as is Aurelia). What I was questioning was the fact that you said Aurelia expressing her opinion was "quite uncalled for" and yet you didn't question the guy before her who she was responding to who was equally outspoken. Either everybody gets to state their opinion on abortion or no one does. It can't be so that the pro-lifers get to say whatever they choose and the pro-choicers get told their statements are "quite uncalled for".



lizward said:


> I would guess that with a fully developed kitten (spaying at such a late stage is dangerous and many vets will not do it but there are some so-called rescues who practice it routinely)


Rescues don't perform neuters or abortions. Vets do. I have never been involved with a rescue organisation who had their own vet. All the rescues I have been involved with use the services of vets in private practice (albeit with discounted rates for the shelters). The vets I know (and have known over the years) who do perform cat abortions will do so for private cleints just as easily as for the shleter. They see nothing wrong with it. However, I do know vets who do early-neuter for shelters, but refuse point blank to do it for private clients.



lizward said:


> I suppose the effect on the kitten is exactly the same as drowning. if the one is cruel, so is the other. Abortion in early pregnancy is done on a non-sentient being and so the ethical considerations are not the same. Some of us, nevertheless, do not believe in killing non-sentient beings without good reason, whatever the species.


Of course our cats can't give their consent to an abortion… but hey, what _can_ they consent to? We make every other health & wellbeing call for them, so I see the neuter while pregnant decision as just one more decision we make on their behalf. And that is irrespective to whether I am for it or against it.... everything we "do" to our cats is without their consent. Do you think a 10 week old kittens actualy wants to go get neutered, chipped and vaccinated? No, I doubt it, but they are decisions we as owners do make for them. And all in the name of "the greater good".

I also don't believe for one minute that the effect on a kitten is the same as drowning... like I say, I know way too many vets who do it. If there was any cruel factor to it, I trust fully that they simply wouldn't do abortions on pregnant cats.



lizward said:


> I think the problem with shelters is far more to do with their ridiculous over-fussiness about who is allowed to adopt their animals.


I think (as I have stated umpteen time sin this forum) that *yes*, UK cat charities (especially the big ones) are far too picky and choosey, and *yes *they have far too many blanket rules, and *yes* that is detrimental to the moggy overpopulation problem. But even without those silly balnket rules people's moggys still get accidentally pregnant. And vets still perfrom abortions. The rescue centres here aren't as crazy as they are in the UK (with tons of silly restrictions on rehoming cats), but especially now with recession there are more animals getting dumped, and harsh choices have to be made, and even vets who maybe weren't pro cat abortion 2 or 3 years ago, are now recommending it a lot more often than they used to.



lizward said:


> when "real" rescues (ie. not the big boys who do one thing for the camera and another thing when the cameras are not rolling) start routinely euthanising healthy young black and black and white cats despite lining up their adoption standards with what most people would consider reasonable. If anyone can honestly tell me they know a shelter in the UK that is doing that, I will change my view (after asking a few questions of course).


I agree kittens will always find homes…. But the more kittens a shelter rehoomes, the less adult cats they can rehome as direct result.



lizward said:


> She said one lot of eye drops and one lot of antibiotics. Perhaps her vet charged separately for every kitten. It seems very high to me.


Every vet's practice I have ever used charges per kitten (what does your vet do then??, how do they charge for litters). Granted most vets I have been to over the years discount for more kittens. For example… (providing all the kittens are seen together)
consult cost for 1st kitten = €20
consult cost for 2nd kitten = €18
consult cost for each subsequent kitten = €15
so if I have an appointment with 5 kittens, that would be …. 1x20 + 1x18 + 3x15 = €83 for consultation costs alone. Medication on top of that. And often the vet will require to see them for a follow-up consult a week later. So as you can see… €110 (or even £110) would be a cheap bout of conjunctivitis for me. I've had bouts that have cost a LOT more than that.



lizward said:


> Let me give you some advice, then, which will save you money if your laws are similar to ours. Chloramphenicol eye ointment


well…. I didn't say I haven't picked up a trick or two over the years , I was just saying for an average size litter, a bout of conjunctivitis with even just 1 vet visit, I would expect to pay well over a hundred quid.

Incidentally, here in NL my fosters' vets bills are covered in full by the shelter I "work" for, so I don't have to pay anything, providing I use one of the vets practices that they have an agreement with. 
That hasn't been the case in every country I've lived, but then again, in some of those countries vets costs were fairly low and medications costs were a LOT cheaper than we here in western Europe are used to.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> As for your costs, all I can say is, use a cheaper brand of cat litter - and a cheaper vet. Quite how on earth it is possible to spend £110 for one simple vet consultation, or £160 on cat litter for four kittens, is a total mystery to me. My cat litter (Tesco premium lightweight) is £3.60 a bag. With two litters on the go at the moment (three kittens plus Mum, four kittens plus two Mums), plus other cats using litter, I am getting through perhaps a bag and a half a week - approx £50 over the time that a litter is likely to be using a tray, but this £50 covers two litters, their mothers (who would be using litter anyway) and other indoor cats. Cat litter is such a small expense for me that I don't even count it separately. I do not like the practice, common on this forum, of scaremongering every time anyone talks about breeding a moggy. * It is espcially ironic because as soon as anyone sees a litter of moggies advertised for £50 the cry goes up of "only in it for the money" - from just the same people who claim that they make a loss at £400 a kitten*.


OK firstly the cat litter we used was the Tesco's own brand woodchip which cost about £4 a bag. We easily got through a bag a day when the kittens started litter training. This is because the litter trays were emptied 4 or 5 times a day. Else they started doing their business elsewhere. The point of litter training is to make it so the kittens learn to use it, is it not? So there for a clean litter tray was essential.

We never once had accidents in the kittening box, and the only other accident (elsewhere) we had was one morning when my hubby forgot to empty the litter trays before he went to work. Proving to me that they had to be emptied regularly.

I dread to think the state of your cats environment if you only spend and use that amount  Seriously, I just can not even begin to think how you manage on such a small amount without them messing everywhere but the trays!

As for the vet fee's, yes they did have two lots of medication, but where did I say it was only 2 vets visits? I can tell you my vet is very reasonably priced. For example spaying a queen is £45.

The bolded bit : This is because usually those who breed moggies tend to give the kittens away between 5 and 8 weeks. So they avoid all the costs involved with raising a litter properly ... so yes they most likely do make money! The breeders who make a loss do so because they do things properly and don't cut any corners. Or because they get their cats/kittens to a vet at the first sing of something being wrong.



lizward said:


> Moggies are usually sold unvaccinated at 8 weeks. Vaccinated at 12 weeks would be better but is extremely uncommon.


Oh well that explains it then . Don't you think that encouraging a better way is the way forward? Make the uncommon the common way.



lizward said:


> I spend about £80 per kitten on total costs including vaccinations and microchip by the time the kittens are 13 week old (this does not include any stud fees).
> Liz


I am totally mystified by your claims here. Can you break the cost down? By my way of thinking, if you did just the bare minimum ...

Vaccs (I pay £52 per kitten, I accept you may pay less for 'bulk buying')
Flea treatment
Worming
Cat litter
Food
Registration (You're GCCF registered right?)

£80, you sure? Please fill in the costs, I'm intrigued.



lizward said:


> I think the problem with shelters is far more to do with their ridiculous over-fussiness about who is allowed to adopt their animals. We are not in the position they are in, in Eastern Europe, for example. Kittens can find homes and inevitably do. Now, with certain breeds of dog (SBTs), the UK situation is becoming very serious indeed, but we have not yet reached that stage with cats. I suppose it could happen if the recession continues much longer, but we are not there yet. We will know we are there when "real" rescues (ie. not the big boys who do one thing for the camera and another thing when the cameras are not rolling) start routinely euthanising healthy young black and black and white cats despite lining up their adoption standards with what most people would consider reasonable. If anyone can honestly tell me they know a shelter in the UK that is doing that, I will change my view (after asking a few questions of course).


Well OK then. Lets not discourage moggie breeding. Lets hope one day the rescue centres get it right.

In the mean time what happens to all the cats and kittens that rescue centres don't have room for? Surely aborting a pregnancy or spaying in the early stages (which isn't really a pregnancy yet) is better. Then there are no cats to put to sleep(talking when these kittens grow up and become surplus to requirement and end up in rescue, or PTS because there just isn't room), or kittens to drown if a home can't be found because there is so much moggie breeding going on ...

You may well be tired of seeing people scaremonger ... I'm tired of reading such a laid back response which makes all the difference to someone with a swaying conscience.

Someone comes to a thread trying to deal with a decision on whether to spay their recently impregnated cat to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. But they are swaying because their poor girl wanted to get pregnant, or because one litter is good for her  ... when you come and reply to these types of threads with such a laid back response, also stating your many years of experience (experience doesn't mean you do things right btw) you give the poster the only bit of encouragement they need to think it's OK to add more kittens to the every growing problem.

You criticise rescue centres and their homing policies (which I do agree with btw), but yet you seem to be blinkered by the fact you in fact are contributing to the problem yourself! Open your eyes Liz, it's time to start acting a bit more responsibly.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

now now girls.

£57 ??? Thats fantastic mine are £43 on week 9 and then £43 eek 12... so that's like .....£86 and thats with a discount.

Vet bills, I have lots of, I have outstanding just now £138 and £67.

Unless you REALLY want your cat to have kittens have her spayed, I feel sorry for my breeding cats, it's no life unless they are pampered to the maximum and even then it must be horrid, us controling their cycles etc.

I also don't believe in fetal abortion but having said that my mum had this done with one of our moggies, we had no idea she was pregnant, until the Vet said.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Ok... i'm going to be the voice of smaller rescues as they are absent here.



I am sick and tired of agreeing with everyone that some rescues seriously need to address their rules, as large blanket policies means alot of people who really would be good parents are discounted. Its also important to point out that not all rescues are the same, and many of the smaller rescues are more flexible with their policies.


Late spey-abortion isnt always carried out... heck i wouldnt have a job as a foster mum for pregnant girls if it was! Sometimes the decision is made based on the welfare of mum cat...sometimes the girl is sooo young, or sooo thin that the risks of a spey-abortion outweigh the risks of continuing pregnancy. In the rescues i have been involved with a late abortion is a very rare occurance.

What utter tosh about giving the cats a choice! As breeders do you give your girls a choice about being bred? do you choose vaccination, choose the stud, choose worming, choose food and litter .... We humans govern out cats decisions and very little is left to them, why should this decision about long term welfare be different from another!

You are right that many shelters are not destroying kittens in their thousands, neither are many dog rescues. What shelters are doing is closing their doors.... they are simply full. What happens to the cats which are unwanted??? We dont have pounds like we do for dogs so what happens to a cat dumped on the streets is less public than what happens to a dog caught up by the warden.

Ladies... on the thread who breed, i posted a thread a few days ago about what the real costs are.... pretty pretty please would you mind filling it in for me??? pretty please with sugar on top? I would be really interested in the results and hope to have an average to show novice breeders what they are letting themselves in for!


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Ok... i'm going to be the voice of smaller rescues as they are absent here.
> 
> Ladies... on the thread who breed, i posted a thread a few days ago about what the real costs are.... pretty pretty please would you mind filling it in for me??? pretty please with sugar on top? I would be really interested in the results and hope to have an average to show novice breeders what they are letting themselves in for!


well no-one else did it!!!! I will do it now, to be honest when you are member of TICA & GCCF you are supposed to shout lots at people and tell them to spay their cats, thats not the correct wording but it's something like that.

BBM - I like girls !!

Right I will get my book of receipts I hide.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Milly22 said:


> BBM - I like girls !!




well thats an interesting proposition your making me hun

but

well

i'm straight

although very flattered!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :arf: :arf: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> well thats an interesting proposition your making me hun
> 
> but
> 
> ...


OMGoodness!!! Now I shall have to read back. Did I just come onto you ? Wow never done THAT before!


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I did I said "BBM I like girls", gosh that is so not true, I find them bitchy and self absorbed and .....................hormonal and lots of other bad things.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> Lizward, of course you're allowed to state your opinion on abortion (as is Aurelia). What I was questioning was the fact that you said Aurelia expressing her opinion was "quite uncalled for" and yet you didn't question the guy before her who she was responding to who was equally outspoken. Either everybody gets to state their opinion on abortion or no one does. It can't be so that the pro-lifers get to say whatever they choose and the pro-choicers get told their statements are "quite uncalled for".


It was the way she said it. Expressing an opinion that something is cruel is not the same thing unless, for example, you said something like "you had your cat spayed in late pregnancy, that makes you cruel". As for pro-chocie, the cat doesn't actually make the choice, this is about being pro-spaying pregnant cats, that's all. Though it's related to the human abortion debate, it isn't quite the same thing (humans who have abortions don't have their reproductive equipment removed at the same time. The abortion rate would plummet if they did!)



> Rescues don't perform neuters or abortions. Vets do.


Yes, I was speaking in the sort of verbal shorthand we use when we talk about mating a queen - it isn't me that mates the queen, it's the stud :lol:



> I also don't believe for one minute that the effect on a kitten is the same as drowning...


Well, _if you are talking about a full term kitten_, the only difference would be that the kitten would be somewhat anaesthetised. To what extent, I don't know, because I have never actually been present at a caesarean to see how conscious the kittens are. Both methods of killing kittens involve depriving the kitten of oxygen and that is what kills it. At least I assume so. I assume the norm is not to open up the removed uterus and individually euthanise the kittens.



> Every vet's practice I have ever used charges per kitten (what does your vet do then??, how do they charge for litters).


It's a consultation for the litter, that's the way I've always been charged anyway. If six kittens have got conjunctivitis, they don't go making out a separate prescription for each one.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> OK firstly the cat litter we used was the Tesco's own brand woodchip which cost about £4 a bag. We easily got through a bag a day when the kittens started litter training. This is because the litter trays were emptied 4 or 5 times a day. Else they started doing their business elsewhere. .


I am about to go out for the evening so will address the rest of your post later, but really, your mentor did you rather a disservice here. Wood pellets are hard on little soft paws, that is probably why the kittens were going elsewhere. When the pellets get wet, the litter turns into sawdust and gets soft. I used this litter myself for about ten years. All you need to do is remove the solids - and the size of these is so small when the kittens are young that even that isn't really necessary (except removing Mum's of course!). The small of the urine attracts the kittens to the right place to go and that all helps litter training - just look at how difficult it is to stop a cat peeing where it isn't supposed to because the smell keeps drawing them back. Well, you can use exactly the same principle for where you DO want them to go. With the litter I use, I change it when either the colour changes or it begins to smell, whichever is the sooner. With wood based litter the principle is the same, change it when the colour (not just the texture!) has changed. It's pretty obvious when it needs changing!

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Liz when the litter changed to sawdust, that is when they wouldn't use it. As for changing when it smells.. you must either not have any sense of smell, or you have just got used to it, because I find that the litter starts to smell as soon as it gets used.

Like I said also, we only had one accident out of the tray when the litter hadn't been changed! No one had done me any disservice, we used what was best at the time, it worked, my girls are litter trained just nice thanks. With our carpets stain and smell free.

I guess my girls just like being clean!


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I thought they choked on anything other than wood pelletts.


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

having been present at a pregnant cat spey I can tell you that every kitten removed has to be individually PTS by injection normally -this is how vets are supposed to act in this situation and it was the one aspect of working in a vets which I was not comfortable with -more so when the owner had allowed her entire boy to mate this girl again as she had already raised one litter from him.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Milly22 said:


> I thought they choked on anything other than wood pelletts.


So did I !!!!! I have always been told to use ONLY wood pellets or paper cat litter with kittens. (or something that is totally natural and can't be harmful when chewed and swallowed)

And I must admit I HATE woodpellet litter and can't wait to get my kittens onto clumping clay based litters. For the few weeks I have them on woodchip litter (till I am certain they have stopped eating it), I do change the litter a good few times per day, I don't just scoop the poop as I do feel the urine does stink.

I do kind of agree with Lizward that they need their "smell" so they know where to go back to for their next poo and pee... but I get around this very easily by putting about a teaspoon full of "dirty" litter back in the newly cleaned tray, just so their scent is still in there. This is probably unnecessary anyway as the plastic of the tray absorbs enough urine into it that even if I forget to put my teaspoon full of dirty litter into the clean tray, that they always find their way back to their tray. I can safely say I have never had litter tray problems with kittens I have reared since birth (I have had problems with kittens who came to me at older ages, but thats a whole other kettle of fish if they were allowed to pee all over the place in their previous home, or they have been brought up outdoors and never had a litter tray).


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> It was the way she said it. Expressing an opinion that something is cruel is not the same thing unless, for example, you said something like "you had your cat spayed in late pregnancy, that makes you cruel".


Im sorry. If Aurelias statement was harsh, then so was the person before her (DHPs). They both gave outspoken meanings on a delicate matter, its insane to say one of them was acceptable and the other wasnt.



lizward said:


> As for pro-chocie, the cat doesn't actually make the choice, this is about bering pro-spayign pregnant cats, that's all. Though it's related to the human abortion debate, it isn't quite the same thing


I was using similar verbal short hand you were using with mating your queen . Basically just trying to make a distinction between people like yourself and DHP who are against cat abortion, and people like Aurelia, BBM and myself who see it as a necessary evil.

Getting back to the point of who aborts the vets or the shelters well your/our verbal shorthand aside assuming a vet is not actually in the employment of a shelter or rescue orgnaisation, he or she is just a vet in private practice who gives discounts to shelter cats he or she is free to decide whether they abort or not. That was my whole point. Shelters cant force vets to go against their own professional ethics. And if a vet is in employment of an actual shelter or rescue org or the PDSA or something. it was a question he or she should have asked at his/her first interview, so again they are not being forced to work against their ethics.



lizward said:


> (humans who have abortions don't have their reproductive equipment removed at the same time. The abortion rate would plummet if they did!)


But humans who have abortions consent to them, and cats dont. Like I said in my earlier post, cats consent to nothing we do the whole consent thing for them. Whats the difference with me saying
a) My 9 month old cat got pregnant at the weekend, I am having her spayed tomorrow
verses
b) My cat is now 9 months old, I am having her spayed this week.

Whether she looses (potential) kittens in that spay or not, we are still removing her reproductive organs.



lizward said:


> Well, if you are talking about a full term kitten, the only difference would be that the kitten would be somewhat anaesthetised.


I wasnt talking about a full term kitten, I was specifically thinking of the OPs cat as that was the example at hand in this thread. I cant really state my general stance on cat abortion. It would depend on so many individual factors (mother cats age and health and development, state of rescue centers and that moment in time, how pregnant the cat was to name but a few). With late abortions the kittens are PTS individually after they are removed.



lizward said:


> It's a consultation for the litter, that's the way I've always been charged anyway. If six kittens have got conjunctivitis, they don't go making out a separate prescription for each one.


I still dont understand, sorry. Are you saying you pay the same price for consultation fees for a litter of 8 kittens as you would pay for a litter with 2 kittens? I have never came across this. Consultation costs are always per kitten (well the vets I have used).

Prescription costs are indeed lower for one big prescription as opposed to 8 individual ones but going back to earlier and how this particular conversation started (Aurelia and her litters bout of conjunctivitis) like I pointed out, I would be paying the best part of 100 quid (just on consultation fees) before any medication was even prescribed, or any second consultation was advised so again, 110 quid for litter with conjunctivitis aint that unusual at all. I wouldnt even be that shocked if the final bill for a bout of conjunctivitis was three times that amount.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

ive never heard of a vet doing a blanket prescription for a litter of kittens either - you live and learn!

Liz out of interest, how does that stand liability wise? Not you specifically of course i mean in general.


I'm thinking back to a dog breeder who took her litter of pups to the vets and the vet suggested one of them might have had entropion. She sold the pup without disclosing that info, and was almost taken to court as it was on the pups individual notes from the vet. 

If they had been seen as a "whole group" then the new owner may have had difficulty that she had been sold That specific puppy and it would have complicated matters. 

Conversly, it may have simplified matters as without proof that it wasnt the effected puppy and without individual notes EVERY owner should have been made aware of the problem.

Just curious as its something entirely new to me!


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Tje said:


> So did I !!!!! I have always been told to use ONLY wood pellets or paper cat litter with kittens. (or something that is totally natural and can't be harmful when chewed and swallowed)
> 
> And I must admit I HATE woodpellet litter and can't wait to get my kittens onto clumping clay based litters. For the few weeks I have them on woodchip litter (till I am certain they have stopped eating it), I do change the litter a good few times per day, I don't just scoop the poop as I do feel the urine does stink.
> 
> I do kind of agree with Lizward that they need their "smell" so they know where to go back to for their next poo and pee... *but I get around this very easily by putting about a teaspoon full of "dirty" litter back in the newly cleaned tray, just so their scent is still in there. * This is probably unnecessary anyway as the plastic of the tray absorbs enough urine into it that even if I forget to put my teaspoon full of dirty litter into the clean tray, that they always find their way back to their tray. I can safely say I have never had litter tray problems with kittens I have reared since birth (I have had problems with kittens who came to me at older ages, but thats a whole other kettle of fish if they were allowed to pee all over the place in their previous home, or they have been brought up outdoors and never had a litter tray).


That is exactly what I did for the first week of training, and is also what I advise if anyone asks me too. But a teaspoon full is much different to the amounts I'm picturing being left in this case :scared:


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Me three!! It worked until I gave them evapourated milk and they pi$$ed everywhere. I go back to my antibacterial non clumping as soon as, although I like this new stuff......cannot remember the name for the life of me atm.

Fraz's stuff, it's good, it absorbs smells.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Gratch said:


> Hello, I took my cat to the vet again yesterday as when I went on Friday, I was told she definitely had kittens in her but as soon as we got back from the vet she went in heat and my male had been mounting her constantly over the weekend because my boyfriend and flatmate kept forgetting to keep them seperated while I was working. I had asked for a pregnancy scan on Friday, which I was told was not necessary as it was a definite thing, but as I was concerned by her sudden and timely heat, I insisted on one yesterday. The scan has shown that there are no kittens, and I'm gutted and relieved at once, and gathering the £120 plus the £80 for the anasthetic test to get both cats spayed/neutered ASAP, but now I'm worried that she's become pregnant from him mounting her all weekend. I'm furious as I would have gotten her spayed during their cancelled appointment on Friday if they had done the pregnancy scan and told me she wasn't pregnant. I honestly don't think I could go through with aborting the kittens and she seems to be out of her heat now and I'm hoping he''s still not experienced enough to have properly mated with her. I'm not outright saying no to aborting kittens if they are there, I just can't stand the thought of them suffering. (Yes I'm very aware of the overpopulation issue).


My snowy was being neutered and the vet rang us when he started to tell us she was pregnant.... I didn't want kittens and asked for his advice he told me he could carry on and snowy wouldn't know the difference... I told him to go ahead.. At the end of the day she was our pet had been caught once already and I didn't want anymore...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Liz when the litter changed to sawdust, that is when they wouldn't use it. As for changing when it smells.. you must either not have any sense of smell, or you have just got used to it, because I find that the litter starts to smell as soon as it gets used.


With wood litter? You must have an extremely acute sense of smell!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Milly22 said:


> I thought they choked on anything other than wood pelletts.


O good heavens no! I've been using this Tesco premium stuff for several years now and have never had anything like that happen.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Liz out of interest, how does that stand liability wise? Not you specifically of course i mean in general.
> 
> I'm thinking back to a dog breeder who took her litter of pups to the vets and the vet suggested one of them might have had entropion. She sold the pup without disclosing that info, and was almost taken to court as it was on the pups individual notes from the vet.
> 
> If they had been seen as a "whole group" then the new owner may have had difficulty that she had been sold That specific puppy and it would have complicated matters.


If there's anything wrong then it is noted separately. With the last litter I took for vaccinations, they made a note against one that she had a heart murmur.

With small kittens, with my previous vet the bill just went under "kittens", with the present vet it goes under the mother's name. if it is something that only affects one kitten then it would be on a separate record.

Liz


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> If there's anything wrong then it is noted separately. With the last litter I took for vaccinations, they made a note against one that she had a heart murmur.
> 
> With small kittens, with my previous vet the bill just went under "kittens", with the present vet it goes under the mother's name. if it is something that only affects one kitten then it would be on a separate record.
> 
> Liz


ahh i understand now, thanks for clearing that up! I presume with jabs and things they each have their own record though? - so you can confirm batch numbers etc should one of them have a reaction?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> the only other accident (elsewhere) we had was one morning when my hubby forgot to empty the litter trays before he went to work. Proving to me that they had to be emptied regularly.


I suspect that was pure co-incidence. You can't make such a connection based on one incident.



> I dread to think the state of your cats environment if you only spend and use that amount  Seriously, I just can not even begin to think how you manage on such a small amount without them messing everywhere but the trays!


Perhaps you use vastly bigger trays than I do. Still, the idea of emptying a tray every time a kitten pees in it seems positively bizarre to me.



> The bolded bit : This is because usually those who breed moggies tend to give the kittens away between 5 and 8 weeks. So they avoid all the costs involved with raising a litter properly ... so yes they most likely do make money! The breeders who make a loss do so because they do things properly and don't cut any corners. Or because they get their cats/kittens to a vet at the first sing of something being wrong.


Vet fees are the same regardless of the breed, and if we think that the average moggy breeder cares less about the cat than the average pedigree breeder, I think we are being rather unfair. If anything, a new breeder is likely to panic and visit the vet needlessly, meaning that experienced breeders will spend less on vet fees



> Oh well that explains it then . Don't you think that encouraging a better way is the way forward? Make the uncommon the common way.


That is the line the GCCF took when they gave their recommendations to DEFRA regarding cat welfare. Moggies leaving home at 13 weeks isn't about to happen. Putting their weight behind a move to make moggies leaving home at 8 weeks (rather than 6 weeks) the norm, would do a lot to help the welfare of the moggy population.



> I am totally mystified by your claims here. Can you break the cost down? By my way of thinking, if you did just the bare minimum ...
> 
> Vaccs (I pay £52 per kitten, I accept you may pay less for 'bulk buying')
> Flea treatment
> ...


Ok I have done a breakdown of costs on the other thread and it seems I may have been basing my original estimate on a price that did not include microchipping. And I confess I haven't included the cost of flea / worm treatment, so OK one could add a couple of tablets of drontal cat per litter perhaps or a few squirts of frontline, and a tube of chloramphenicol eye ointment per litter. Whatever I do, I can't make the cost, if you have standard vaccinations only, any more than £80 per kitten



> You may well be tired of seeing people scaremonger ... I'm tired of reading such a laid back response which makes all the difference to someone with a swaying conscience.


If you think your arrogant attitude helps, I don't think you are right. Besides which, it is hypocritical indeed that so many on here (NOT including you this time) talk as if moggy breeding is the worst crime in the world until the kittens are actually due, and then they all start begging for pictures and saying how wonderful it all is. You can't have it both ways!



> You criticise rescue centres and their homing policies (which I do agree with btw), but yet you seem to be blinkered by the fact you in fact are contributing to the problem yourself!


ALL of us who breed cats have to home them. If we think that somehow because we breed pedigrees, we are not adding to the problem, we are kidding ourselves. Yes, it's a different market - in the same way as a kitten buyer is in a different market from soemone who wants to adopt an adult cat. But the three markets overlap. If no moggy kittens were available, many (but not all) would settle for a rescue adult. If no pedigree kittens were available many (but not all) would likewise settle for a rescue adult. Pretending that moggy breeders (who generally only produce a couple of litters, ever) are causing a problem but we (who produce 1.5 litters per queen per year) are not, we are being hypocritical indeed. Clearly, we think that we are doing enough for cats in general to at least offset the "problem" we cause. At least, I hope we do, because if we don't then we really are prize hypocrites.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> ahh i understand now, thanks for clearing that up! I presume with jabs and things they each have their own record though? - so you can confirm batch numbers etc should one of them have a reaction?


O yes absolutely. But problems with kittens generally occur long before vaccination.

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Liz I didn't once say I empty litter trays every time they pee, lol. They were emptied regularly yes, but not that regularly!

You say I'm arrogant. OK, but that is not what I intend, I do get very frustrated seeing so many people post about their pregnant moggie, and the daft reasons they come out with for why they got pregnant, and then reasons why they wont spay. Then at some point some of these same people post threads a little while later along the lines of "One of the kittens is coughing/sneezing had diarrhea, what can I give it, do I need to go to the vet?". So the kittens suffer because the 'breeder' was selfish enough to let their cat get pregnant, and then irresponsible enough not to do anything about it (or maybe the opposite way around). After all, who can resist cute kittens?

There are experienced breeders like this too, which makes my head spin, and these people should not be breeding IMO. Same as the breeders who everyone assumes knows what they are doing because they have been doing it for years and years, yet behind the scenes the breeder is a disgrace and shouldn't own cats let alone breed them. Heck these types show cats and win awards ... but when back at their home their house is a hoarders paradise. Stuff stacked high at the windows to echo the crap lying around all over the house. No doubt they can't even move for junk everywhere. Then they are dirty to boot, filth that they probably long ago learned to ignore. Yet it's obvious to other people at a glance when looking through windows, or even photographs taken innocently for their website or to post on forums. They have long since stopped noticing the filth and don't realise what other people see. The same people are probably reluctant to allow people to come and view their kittens, instead they let people buy them without viewing, and the the exchange of kitten and cash happen in a one time meeting that is brief.

Others don't know this, these breeders strut around with a know it all attitude, and people believe in them even admire them. So they never get questioned until one day someone who really cares does something about it. Then you read stories of how this breeder that everyone thought highly of has all of her cats and kittens removed from the disgusting hole they have been raised in. Most kittens and adults are sick and underweight and need a fair bit of care so they can be rehomed. The breeder is then duly banned from keeping animals and a shock wave travels through the breeding world about the breeder who most thought was a good breeder ... apart from that one person and a few friends that also care enough to be the ones to do something.

Sound familiar? We hear about breeders being busted like that more times than I dare to think about. How is encouraging moggie breeding right, when even some experience breeders have it so fundamentally wrong?

Meh, far more than intended to type, and a little off topic. But I feel so strongly about people breeding their animals without any care for their care ... I just don't see how being so laid back in advice for these people is going to help. IMO it encourages them and it shouldn't happen!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Liz I didn't once say I empty litter trays every time they pee, lol. They were emptied regularly yes, but not that regularly!


Aurelia... maybe we are both just suffering from a bad dose of OCD ( :lol: ) but I am with you on changing the litter regularly, especially non clumping wood chip litter. It maybe doesn't stink to other people's noses when not changed regularly.... but it sure does stink to my nose, and my husband's. There's no way I could leave the wet cat litter in the trays for any length of time. On the odd occasion when I do have kittens and I do go out for a day, I practically heave when I open my front door, and the kittens are upstairs in the kitten room! I am not sure how much litter I actually use when I am still forced to use woodchip litter when the kittens are young.... I would guess about 3-4 of those massive big bags in a week. And that's assuming the mother cat or the kittens don't have the runs (the mother cats I get almost always do have the runs so probably a lot more in those circumstances).

I cut corners and save money in MANY other ways... heck my kitten pen is a recycled desk, lol, and I DIY everything from window proofing to garden proofing to making my own cat trees and scratchers, I am Scottish and thrifty after all. But if I skimped on cat litter I just know my husband would draw a line under my fostering days. The one thing he was VERY clear about in the beginning was that he was happy to support me and my fostering.... but he didn't want to live in a house that smelled of cats. And the litter tray is often (always?) the worst aspect on the nose of having indoor cats.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> There are experienced breeders like this too, which makes my head spin, and these people should not be breeding IMO. Same as the breeders who everyone assumes knows what they are doing because they have been doing it for years and years, yet behind the scenes the breeder is a disgrace and shouldn't own cats let alone breed them. Heck these types show cats and win awards ... but when back at their home their house is a hoarders paradise. Stuff stacked high at the windows to echo the crap lying around all over the house. No doubt they can't even move for junk everywhere. Then they are dirty to boot, filth that they probably long ago learned to ignore. Yet it's obvious to other people at a glance when looking through windows, or even photographs taken innocently for their website or to post on forums. They have long since stopped noticing the filth and don't realise what other people see. The same people are probably reluctant to allow people to come and view their kittens, instead they let people buy them without viewing, and the the exchange of kitten and cash happen in a one time meeting that is brief.


Well, junk does not affect the cats' health - in fact, it can give them lots of hiding places and things to play around. There is a difference between clutter and dirt. The two often go together but not necessarily so. And illness is not spread by grimy windows (or unwashed people for that matter!). Soft furnishings and carpets and central heating are wonderful for fleas. Bare boards and unheated homes are actually rather good for flea prevention. What upsets people may be completely harmless to cats, and whenever I see a TV case (usually the RSPCA strutting their stuff) about how terrible these conditions are, I try to look from the cats' point of view. Bearing in mind that the RSPCA are very keen to destroy animals who need any veterinary attention, I would tend to take comments like "two of the cats were in such poor condition that they had to be put to sleep" with rather a pinch of salt. I suspect it is often code for "two of the cats had runny eyes" or something similar, something that all of use would regard as a case for a vet visit and treatment rather than destruction.

Nevertheless, that case with the breeder in Shropshire was bad, and "cat hoarding" is a serious problem with some people. I was not involved in that rescue so cannot make too many comments about it, but clearly things were very wrong.

There is no doubt at all, surely, that the average pedigree breeder has far more cats (and therefore far more potential for infection) than the person breeding from a couple of moggies.

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm not sure I agree there Liz. Filthy environments breed germs, it's only a matter of time before they have a detrimental effect on kittens with under developed immune systems. That's without taking into account germs brought in on peoples clothes/shoes and the germs and other parasites spread around by fleas.

Unless you are a fastidious cleaner, and spend all day doing so, I don't know how a you can keep a very cluttered environment clean. Especially the breeders who have many cats who take up a lot of time already!

Conjunctivitis alone is one very common affliction suffered by kittens in litters bred by the experienced and first timers alike.

This can be caused by foreign bodies (dust, dirt, crumbs etc...) so common sense would tell me that keeping clean by hoovering daily, or even twice daily, dusting everywhere and keeping bedding clean and litter trays clean is a good way to cut out one risk of the babies getting it. I have a suspicion that my girls got the bout they did because for a few days they took to rolling around and scrapping on Bella my Rough Collies bed. Now she was moulting at the time, and her long fur picks up all sorts when she is out on her walks. Even though her bed is washed weekly I'm sure this could be the source. Something I've concluded in the last week or so after thinking a lot about our experience this year, and what we can do to improve things for next year. It's one of the reasons why I have developed and put into practice the beds this week, which will help cut down on dirt/dust particles as the toppers can be washed as regularly as I like and it's easy to do so (instead of taking the cover off a huge dog bed through a tiny opening, lol). I could be wrong, but I know I will be making sure bedding on the actually beds (not the kittening box as they were already washed and changed every day) are washed more regularly next year.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, I have a great deal of clutter and healthy cats. Don't forget, immune systems need some challenge - there is evidence to suggest that the dramatic rise in allergies over the past few decades is a direct result of people tying to keep their homes cleaner than hospital wards, the immune system has nothing to do so it finds itself some work to do attacking a healthy body. If you go back to the 14th century, people didn't wash - ever. It was thought to weaken the skin. And with no knowledge of how disease spread, and no sanitation, however did the human race survive? But it did! If you look at the biology of the immune system, the astonishing thing is not that it works, but that anything ever gets through it to cause disease!

Liz (who does shower every day!!)


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lol if we go back to the 14th century we had the great pestillence!


The black death of 1348 which wiped out half of the worlds population!


Not exactly an advert for uncleanliness?!?!


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well, I have a great deal of clutter and healthy cats. Don't forget, immune systems need some challenge - there is evidence to suggest that the dramatic rise in allergies over the past few decades is a direct result of people tying to keep their homes cleaner than hospital wards, the immune system has nothing to do so it finds itself some work to do attacking a healthy body. If you go back to the 14th century, people didn't wash - ever. It was thought to weaken the skin. And with no knowledge of how disease spread, and no sanitation, however did the human race survive? But it did! If you look at the biology of the immune system, the astonishing thing is not that it works, but that anything ever gets through it to cause disease!
> 
> Liz (who does shower every day!!)


There is clutter and there is clutter Liz. Unless you're admitting to being one of those hoarders who have things stacked high everywhere and rubbish mixed in?

I don't doubt the claims about things being too clean, being a reason why allergies are becoming more of a problem. But there is clean and then there is obsessively clean too!

My mum was/is a very clean lady and her home is always spotless. Yet none of us kids have allergies! I also did not spend most of my childhood being ill either. I'd much rather find the balance where things are clean enough to prevent illness, but not so clean that it strips all the immune system developing properties in an environment.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> lol if we go back to the 14th century we had the great pestillence!
> 
> The black death of 1348 which wiped out half of the worlds population!
> 
> Not exactly an advert for uncleanliness?!?!


It was carried by fleas - which live in soft furnishings and carpets 

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> There is clutter and there is clutter Liz. Unless you're admitting to being one of those hoarders who have things stacked high everywhere and rubbish mixed in?


We do have a clean out from time to time, usually when the cardboard boxes (which are packing boxes connected with our business, perfectly clean!) fill more than about 1/4 of the lounge. The cats hate it afterwards because all their play and hiding places have gone. 

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> It was carried by fleas - which live in soft furnishings and carpets


Ahhh but those fleas were carried by rats, and rats thrive in unhygienic conditions.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Oh my goodness.. well I think we are having a right history lesson here.. LOL

And I think the original post was about speying..lol


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Aw, c'mon... cats to rats. It's only a change a subject by one letter


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Aw, c'mon... cats to rats. It's only a change a subject by one letter


LMAO... Nobody talks about cats in the rats section..lol Is what got me was from speying to cat litter..lol to the cost of jabs for litter or singles and then from that to the black death..lol


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> Ahhh but those fleas were carried by rats, and rats thrive in unhygienic conditions.


Not around cats they don't - I have a horrifying memory from a decade ago when the dogs were fussing around an outdoor kennel, my father was visiting and lifted up the kennel to see what was underneath, and out ran a pregnant rat. She lasted about 30 seconds, poor thing :frown:

Liz


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> It was carried by fleas - which live in soft furnishings and carpets
> 
> Liz


not quite correct, it was indeed introduced into most countries by fleas... however carpets simply didnt exist in the 14th century. Wall hangings yes, but the floors were either bare or rush floors. Curtains were around beds not windows and there was very little in the way of soft furnishings.
The plague was also not only transmitted by fleas, but also by other humans when it had reached their lungs. In fact the pneumonic plague was more virulent and spread faster through respiration.

Lets see what else the 14th century had in store for us plebs.

Well we had the hundred years war
the burning of witches and the knights templar martyrs
It was rare to find someone over 60 amongst the average population
The average life expectancy for those who survived childhood was 35!!!
Childhood mortality rates are estimated between 3/10 and 2/5

hmmm, i tell you, i wouldnt fancy living the life of an ordinary person in the 14th century!

I do understand your point, that society has become too aseptic and this can cause its own problems, however its a simple fact that dirty, cramped and cluttered conditions spread disease. There always has to be a happy medium.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)




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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Not around cats they don't - I have a horrifying memory from a decade ago when the dogs were fussing around an outdoor kennel, my father was visiting and lifted up the kennel to see what was underneath, and out ran a pregnant rat. She lasted about 30 seconds, poor thing :frown:
> 
> Liz


well I have lived in countries where the street cats share the same territory, the same bin bags and the same squalor as the rats... I am not saying the cats never killed a rat, but they didn't kill anywhere near enough to make even the tiniest impact on the rat population. Rats thrive where squalor is, simple as, irrespective to how many cats are around. One of the streets we lived in SE Asia, we even (as a group pof neighbours I mean) supported a feral colony that eventually grew to 23 cats who lived in the elctrical housing unit in the middle of our street... we still had as many rats as when the electrical housing unit was just populated with two old moggies.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> not quite correct, it was indeed introduced into most countries by fleas... however carpets simply didnt exist in the 14th century.


O I know, I meant that is where you are likely to find fleas _today_. Actually, on the subject, I rather like John Donne's poem about the flea, it's a bit later - 17th century I think - but says it all really about the way things were :lol:



> hmmm, i tell you, i wouldnt fancy living the life of an ordinary person in the 14th century!


O neither would I! But the fact is the human race survived!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> well I have lived in countries where the street cats share the same territory, the same bin bags and the same squalor as the rats... I am not saying the cats never killed a rat, but they didn't kill anywhere near enough to make even the tiniest impact on the rat population. Rats thrive where squalor is, simple as, irrespective to how many cats are around.


Well, they say you are never more than six foot from a rat, don't they.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

BBM - I love it! Where on earth did you find that graphic? :lol:

Liz


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> BBM - I love it! Where on earth did you find that graphic? :lol:
> 
> Liz


google is my best friend :lol:

gotta admit its been quite a leap on this one! From speying a pregnant cat to the life of grime to 14th century history lessons!


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Can I just add that in the village I used to stay in was a mining village and they had one HUGE bath for the whole village, so the GP told me??? I don't think I was born then. 

Wow where did THAT come from ? Love that sign BBM! 

<leaves spaying thread>


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> google is my best friend :lol:
> 
> gotta admit its been quite a leap on this one! From speying a pregnant cat to the life of grime to 14th century history lessons!


Well, let's go for the record shall we. John Donne on The Flea:

MARK but this flea, and mark in this,
How little that which thou deniest me is ;
It suck'd me first, and now sucks thee,
And in this flea our two bloods mingled be.
Thou know'st that this cannot be said
A sin, nor shame, nor loss of maidenhead ;
Yet this enjoys before it woo,
And pamper'd swells with one blood made of two ;
And this, alas ! is more than we would do.

O stay, three lives in one flea spare,
Where we almost, yea, more than married are.
This flea is you and I, and this
Our marriage bed, and marriage temple is.
Though parents grudge, and you, we're met,
And cloister'd in these living walls of jet.
Though use make you apt to kill me,
Let not to that self-murder added be,
And sacrilege, three sins in killing three.

Cruel and sudden, hast thou since
Purpled thy nail in blood of innocence?
Wherein could this flea guilty be,
Except in that drop which it suck'd from thee?
Yet thou triumph'st, and say'st that thou
Find'st not thyself nor me the weaker now.
'Tis true ; then learn how false fears be ;
Just so much honour, when thou yield'st to me,
Will waste, as this flea's death took life from thee.

Liz


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

Excellent! Can we sticky that poem liz!! lol.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

lizward said:


> Vet fees are the same regardless of the breed, and if we think that the average moggy breeder cares less about the cat than the average pedigree breeder, I think we are being rather unfair. If anything, a new breeder is likely to panic and visit the vet needlessly, meaning that experienced breeders will spend less on vet fees
> 
> ALL of us who breed cats have to home them. If we think that somehow because we breed pedigrees, we are not adding to the problem, we are kidding ourselves. Yes, it's a different market - in the same way as a kitten buyer is in a different market from soemone who wants to adopt an adult cat. But the three markets overlap. If no moggy kittens were available, many (but not all) would settle for a rescue adult. If no pedigree kittens were available many (but not all) would likewise settle for a rescue adult. Pretending that moggy breeders (who generally only produce a couple of litters, ever) are causing a problem but we (who produce 1.5 litters per queen per year) are not, we are being hypocritical indeed. Clearly, we think that we are doing enough for cats in general to at least offset the "problem" we cause. At least, I hope we do, because if we don't then we really are prize hypocrites.
> 
> Liz


Repped, I coudnt agree more! :thumbup:

I am not against breeding mutt dogs or moggy cats provided they have had heath tests and have homes lined up, its incredibly snobby to think that because you breed pedigrees your cats are more important and you know everything, one of the main reasons I dont post in the cat section.

Yes there are moggy cats needing homes, but from what I know there are plenty of pedigree cats needing homes too!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Starlite said:


> I am not against breeding mutt dogs or moggy cats *provided they have had heath tests *and have homes lined up


I wouldn't be either .... I have just never met, nor even _heard_ of or _read_ of, a moggy breeder who has health tested their queen and her stud.



Starlite said:


> its incredibly snobby to think that because you breed pedigrees your cats are more important and you know everything, one of the main reasons I dont post in the cat section.


has anyone ever actually said, in this thread or any other, that pedigree cats are more important? Two of us replying in this thread are foster mother for rescue moggies... I have never been given the impression by any breeder on this forum that my moggy kittens are inferior to their pedigree kittens.



Starlite said:


> Yes there are moggy cats needing homes, but from what I know there are plenty of pedigree cats needing homes too!


of course there are homeless pedigree cats, but percentage wise moggy cats are discarded far more often and are more difficult to rehome than a pedigree, and often the pedigree cats that are rehomed end up in breed rescue circles as opposed to being dumped on the streets or placed in a shelter. I have just had a quick look at the breed rescues in my area... very few peds looking for rehoming right now in the 5 breed rescues I looked at.... but the shelters are all overflowing. The shelter I foster for currently has around 150 adult cats and gawd only knows how many kittens (as they are in foster homes and not in the actual shelter) .... all the kittens are moggies and as far as I can remember there's 1 Persian and 1 Siamese in the shelter and maybe 3 other cats who could (at a stretch of the imagination) be classed as crosses. Any pedigree cat who does end up in our shelter is always snapped up much quicker than the moggies.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Starlite said:


> Repped, I coudnt agree more! :thumbup:
> 
> Its incredibly snobby to think that because you breed pedigrees your cats are more important and you know everything, one of the main reasons I dont post in the cat section.
> 
> Yes there are moggy cats needing homes, but from what I know there are plenty of pedigree cats needing homes too!


Snobby ? Moi ? Yes, very good, :lol: :lol:

I breed beautiful kittens, nothing snobby about having cleaning constant litter trays, floors, weaning kittens, giving mouth to mouth, seeing your Queen ill and hand rearing a full litter. Snobby 

Where is that sign BBM had?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

What a load of rubbish to say that anyone on this thread who breeds pedigree cats think they know more than anyone else! I've bred pedigrees for 25+ years and there are people on this forum and, indeed, on this thread who have an equal, and in a lot of cases, depth of knowledge of 'all things cat'... and some of them don't even breed cats!

There is always something to be learned and ideas and views to be exchanged and why I occasionally seek opinions here.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> There is always something to be learned and ideas and views to be exchanged and why I occasionally seek opinions here.


I am wondering why at times, but there are some good people with good knowledge.

Knowledge is power.  Some people don't give a toss.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Trust me to leave out the key word and make myself look a [email protected] ! 

That should have read "and in a lot of cases BETTER".

Milly, I'm probably just a bit ancient  You do something for so long and you think you have it all sussed out; your mind can get a bit closed to new ideas and different opinions... and sometimes when I'm fannying around and not knowing what to do best (cat wise, I mean) it's good to have the input of others


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Trust me to leave out the key word and make myself look a [email protected] !
> 
> That should have read "and in a lot of cases BETTER".
> 
> Milly, I'm probably just a bit ancient  You do something for so long and you think you have it all sussed out; your mind can get a bit closed to new ideas and different opinions... and sometimes when I'm fannying around and not knowing what to do best (cat wise, I mean) it's good to have the input of others


I dind't even notice.  Perhaps tomorrow.

No I don't think you are ancient in your thinking, I have cat books that go way back to the 1930s and I feel in almost all of them the principles are the same.

Now I am not sure if that is the correct word for what I mean.

they all go along the same lines. In most ways. I love reading about cats, breeding, pedigrees disagreements about things in different breeds. I am always learning, always learning.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> What a load of rubbish to say that anyone on this thread who breeds pedigree cats think they know more than anyone else! I've bred pedigrees for 25+ years and there are people on this forum and, indeed, on this thread who have an equal, and in a lot of cases, depth of knowledge of 'all things cat'... and some of them don't even breed cats!
> 
> There is always something to be learned and ideas and views to be exchanged and why I occasionally seek opinions here.


From what I can see on the thread not even the people who breed cats can seem to agree. Its not that people are putting ideas and/or advice forward, but insisting theirs is the right one. How does Aurelia know that moggie kittens will end up in a rescue, because I cant see into the future and its a but presumptuous to make a statement as as such (Not getting at Aurelia, just an example of what Im trying to say!)



Aurelia said:


> Don't be so ridiculous! What is cruel is replying with daft advice like that which will result in more moggies pregnancies, which in turn will result in more kitten/cats being left at rescue centre in favour of people taking on unwanted offspring of a moggie pregnancy





Milly22 said:


> I dind't even notice.  Perhaps tomorrow.
> 
> No I don't think you are ancient in your thinking, I have cat books that go way back to the 1930s and I feel in almost all of them the principles are the same.
> 
> ...


I am always willing to learn from others about animals and picking up info, but there is a big difference between advice and telling someone what is right and what they should do.

Just my opinion, not a statement


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Starlite said:


> From what I can see on the thread not even the people who breed cats can seem to agree. Its not that people are putting ideas and/or advice forward, but insisting theirs is the right one. How does Aurelia know that moggie kittens will end up in a rescue, because I cant see into the future and its a but presumptuous to make a statement as as such (Not getting at Aurelia, just an example of what Im trying to say!)


Because, like I have said many times before ...

The average person who decides to get a kitten, but can't afford a pedigree (which is a bit of a false economy in itself), would opt to buy/ collect for free a moggie kitten from down the road from Mavis (random name) who let her cat get pregnant ... than pop to their local rescue and pay more (usually) for a rescue kitten/cat. Or someone in a persons family has kittens from their cat, so their family have one each, or even two ...

So for every kitten obtained this way, there is one left in rescue.

For example, if the OP lets his/her cat go through with any potential pregnancy, and they think 'Oh it's OK most of my family will home any kittens, so no harm done' ... that's just silly. Instead of letting the bunch of cells grow into a pregnancy, why not spay. Then those family members who had said they will take a kitten, why not direct them to their local rescue centre. They may well have a litter or two there that need homing, that would otherwise be left there if the OP let their cat continue with this second time around accidental pregnancy!

it's not rocket science, and I don't get why people just don't understand this! It's soooo frustrating!

As for there being breeders on this thread that don't agree .. please look again, I think it's only really one breeder that disagrees. Take from that what you will


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> For example, if the OP lets his/her cat go through with any potential pregnancy, and they think 'Oh it's OK most of my family will home any kittens, so no harm done' ... that's just silly. Instead of letting the bunch of cells grow into a pregnancy, why not spay. Then those family members who had said they will take a kitten, why not direct them to their local rescue centre. They may well have a litter or two there that need homing, that would otherwise be left there if the OP let their cat continue with this second time around accidental pregnancy!


This argument is valid IF and ONLY IF those people would

1. Be prepared to pay for a kitten from a rescue. Believe it or not there are some excellent homes out there that simply will not pay for a kitten on principle and yet will happily pay vast amounts to keep the cat in luxury once they have it. It makes no sense to me, but my parents fall into that category and there are some on this forum who are the same, perhaps it's a generational thing.

and 2. Would actually be accepted by a rescue. Plenty of great homes aren't, because they don't meet some rigid criterion or other.

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> This argument is valid IF and ONLY IF those people would
> 
> 1. Be prepared to pay for a kitten from a rescue. Believe it or not there are some excellent homes out there that simply will not pay for a kitten on principle and yet will happily pay vast amounts to keep the cat in luxury once they have it. It makes no sense to me, but my parents fall into that category and there are some on this forum who are the same, perhaps it's a generational thing.
> 
> ...


I actually agree with both your arguments Liz. I just dont agree that we should just go along with certain thinking, I do think we can only ever change it by using the logical arguments to show people their thinking is flawed and why it is flawed. Just sitting on the fence and saying well I dont think like them but they are entitled to their opinion is. well, its a cop out if you care about cat welfare, and to change things people like us have to be willing to step up and state what we believe in, even if that means telling family members, friends and colleagues that they are supporting/advocating/encouraging bad animal rearing practices.

There are indeed people out there who just point blank refuse to pay for kittens or cats. I had a long conversation with one of these type of people yesterday . She steadfastly maintains the shelter I foster for overcharges for kittens (and cats), despite being in my house and life so often and seeing me fly through tubs of royal canin baby milk and tins of Hills AD and accompanying me to the vet with kittens more times than I care to remember (so she knows the vet bills I  or my shelter- incur for these kittens). My rescue charges around 80 euros (68 ish GB pounds) for a 12 week old, home reared and well socialised kitten, with 2 set of vaccinations, microchipped, de wormed and de flead and vet checked at least 3 times, with a 1 month health guarantee and half price spaying or neutering when the kitten is of age.

Now obviously the shelter is running at a loss charging only 80.

But my neighbour still sees it as daylight robbery and slags off the shelter at very given opportunity. For one she thinks vaccination (even in kittens) is unnecessary as she once had a cat that lived to 18 years old and it had never been vacced, she thinks vaccination is a money making con forced upon us by greedy vets looking to make money. Chipping she thinks is unnecessary too, despite the fact her past cats have been outdoor/indoor cats. And deworming is also just another new fandangled something we over-protective catty people have started doing for no valid reason at all. This woman by the way _is_ older than me, but not by that much I think she is about 49 or 50. But her cat-ideas are on par with those I grew up with in mid 1970s Scotland. I listen to every point she makes . I just blast them out the window, one by one, with a dose of common sense and show her/tell her how irresponsible and wrong, abd ultimately cat-unfriendly she actually is.

I know the choice between clumping litter or woodbased litter , or whiskas food versus applaws food is an opinion, with no right or wrong answer. But surely stating that a kitten needs vaccinations and deworming is a fact, as is the need for socialization in the early weeks. And the rehoming at 12 weeks or 8 weeks while it might not be quite as much of an irrevocable fact as vaccinations and worm treatments anyone with any knowledge of cats should be able to put forward a good argument for not rehoming before 12 weeks. And I feel we are morally obliged to as well, we have to tell people if they care for cats they simply have to part with some money, that we can't improve cat welfare without delving into our purses. I dont mean we have to shove it down peoples throats in an obnoxious hollier than thou manner, I am sure we all know that well catch more flies using honey water than using vinegar, but I do think we have to take a stance and stick to it and not be swayed by being too respectful of people with outdated and frankly cat-unfriendly and dangerous thinking.

As for the too rigid rules used by many cat charities on the homes that their cats and kittens go to well as you know you wont find argument there from me. Those too rigid, stupidly applied rules are absolutely detrimental to the overall problem of overflowing shelters and very many moggy cats getting put to sleep daily. I will never even begin to defend the cat charities who paint with such broad brush strokes. I am just not sure how to go about changing this.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Dogs_Health_Problems said:


> Well, if your cat does get pregnant, then I would agree in keeping the kittens; aborting them is too cruel, unless it endangers the life of the mother. Sometimes, errors like what happened to you upsets me; these guys should be able to know better than anyone else.


How is it cruel? The kittens are not aware if their mum is spayed so early as this, they will hardly even be a cluster of cells.

Kittens are not nearly so hard to place as adult cats, but how many stay in the homes for life? Obviously not all, or our cat rescues would not be struggling as they are with a massive and shameful amount of adult cats  
In the UK and elsewhere, there are simply too many kittens and cats and not enough homes. And for that reason, if this cat was mine I would neuter her.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Kittens are not nearly so hard to place as adult cats, *but how many stay in the homes for life*?


that's sooo so so so so so true.

I keep reading in here about how easy it is to rehome kittens... YESSSSS it is VERRRRRRY easy. But I would like to know how many of the kittens rehomed this year, end up back in shelters within the next 3 years. Heck, many of them are luck to last a year with their new family... as so many of them get dumped when the cute kitten stage wears off.


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


>


  :lol:Tried to rep you for that, made me giggle, it wont let me i'll try again soon

claire


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## HannahKate (Jun 6, 2010)

On the topic of the original subject...
If you think your cat has been mated and you want to get it spayed then it should be done asap because the vets may charge more for a pregnant spay. It it is done right at the beginning then it wont be an issue. I think that for people on the PDSA scheme a simple spay is fine but spaying a pregnant cat isnt covered (from what I remember seeing at the vets). Personally I wouldn't have an issue doing it, however, it's not that nice if the kittens/puppies are near to full term.


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## Andy_91 (Oct 5, 2010)

actually its not so many kittens thats the problem its people who think kittens are cute and playful and are uneducated in feline species they buy a kitten then decide once its grown up they dont want it id rehome a million adult cats if i could ive bought two kittens and their mine till death just is my dog as theres a over population of staffs too not just cats


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

Andy_91 said:


> ive bought two kittens and their mine till death


... and death might come soon if you let your kitten mate and have kittens while she is clearly too young.

p.s - when you say 'i bought'.. I do hope you mean 'rescued'.. seeing as you express such a strong desire to help with the unwanted cat population out there?


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2010)

thelioncub said:


> ... and death might come soon if you let your kitten mate and have kittens while she is clearly too young.
> 
> p.s - when you say 'i bought'.. I do hope you mean 'rescued'.. seeing as you express such a strong desire to help with the unwanted cat population out there?


I would rep for that but I'm all out


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