# 'Checking' 'Jerking' Do you? Would You?



## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Reading another thread there seemed to be general concensus that 'jerking' or as I would call it 'checking' as a form of reminder / getting attention isnt acceptable so im curious -

Would you ?

Have You ?

I walk Millie on a 1/2 check at times and yep il 'check' her. If she is starting to wander abit quick a quick corrective 'check' and she realises 'oh im walking *with* you' 

If Millie is paying to much attention to another dog I would 'check' her and use our word for to heel 'with me' which resulted in her giving me 100% attention and walking closely with me and not staring at other dogs. We went through a phase of her staring a bit to intently at others  But using this method we have nearly all but overocme this.

I certainly do not think it is cruel, I mean im not yanking her off her paws  it as a method which has worked for us especially with a 1/2 check the noise is enough to 'check' her.

I will add though we use the same method of the occassional check whether she be on a harness / fixed collar or 1/2 check. Its not something just for 'training' wlaks so to speak.

So do you 'check' your dogs? Do you think it wrong?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Yes! I would and do check!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nope and nope. I've never 'jerked' a lead to get attention, never been something I've been interested in doing. I'll get attention verbally or if she's pulling like a steam train I'll just hold on and calm her down and get to heel again. Not a problem. I find people who walk along like Barbara Woodhouse initiates jerking their leads like it has some amazing significance to training quite bizarre tbh. Perhaps definitions of jerking differ though, I see a jerk as a very hard and swift pull ala The Woodhouse, so I'm sure people will take umbridge at me thinking it's silly.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I do fairly often! Usually to speed Hannah and Heidi up when they are dithering and to slow Adam down when he is walking too fast. Its just a gentle tug to remind them to pay attention, not a jerk off their feet!
The 'jerk off their feet' manouvere is reserved for when they wander under my foot just as Im about to put it down!! Its actually much kinder then being squashed beneath my boot!LOL
Oh, and I do pull them away from rubbish (quite often in the crappy area where I live!). I could stand there and give the 'leave it' command but at least one of them would be full of cooked chicken bones at this point so pulling them away is much safer.


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## Weezawoo (Aug 5, 2012)

I do! Sorry to people who don't like it, I don't do it violently like some may do and sometimes walking down the road I get some looks from people, but Bella pulls a lot and strong to the point if you let her she ends up almost choking herself (you know that awful noise they make!) so a quick check makes her listen, sometimes I have to do it more. 

Now though Lottie rarely needs a check as just saying good girl works with her!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Nope and nope. I've never 'jerked' a lead to get attention, never been something I've been interested in doing. I'll get attention verbally or if she's pulling like a steam train I'll just hold on and calm her down and get to heel again. Not a problem. I find people who walk along like Barbara Woodhouse initiates jerking their leads like it has some amazing significance to training quite bizarre tbh.


I spent £25 a hour to my gundog trainer to learn Im doing wrong then!  wonder if she'll give me a refund!

Oh! and almost forgot, shes not an old fogee either shes just 20 and won the Junior handler of the year a few years back.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

I actually think that some people are confusing a jerk and a check !
And to be honest do wonder how you can train a dog wiithout checking them!
I honestly do.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> I do fairly often! Usually to speed Hannah and Heidi up when they are dithering and to slow Adam down when he is walking too fast. Its just a gentle tug to remind them to pay attention, not a jerk off their feet!
> r.


thats exactly what I do!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> I spent £25 a hour to my gundog trainer to learn Im doing wrong then!  wonder if she'll give me a refund!
> 
> Oh! and almost forgot, shes not an old fogee either shes just 20 and won the Junior handler of the year a few years back.


Good for her.

Not gonna stop me finding it bizarre and somewhat amusing when I see people jerking leads and saying 'heeeeeellll' in a stern voice as they walk along, most of the time these dogs don't seem to know what heeling is so why the owners say it to them is beyond me.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Good for her.
> 
> Not gonna stop me finding it bizarre and somewhat amusing when I see people jerking leads and saying 'heeeeeellll' in a stern voice as they walk along, most of the time these dogs don't seem to know what heeling is so why the owners say it to them is beyond me.


you have a good point there, but I seem to remember everything we did whether it was walking, sitting, stop we checked first! followed by a single word.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Nope and nope. I've never 'jerked' a lead to get attention, never been something I've been interested in doing. I'll get attention verbally or if she's pulling like a steam train I'll just hold on and calm her down and get to heel again. Not a problem. I find people who walk along like Barbara Woodhouse initiates jerking their leads like it has some amazing significance to training quite bizarre tbh. Perhaps definitions of jerking differ though, I see a jerk as a very hard and swift pull ala The Woodhouse, so I'm sure people will take umbridge at me thinking it's silly.


Because someone 'checks' it doenst mean there walking down the street constantly snapping there lead at the dog 

I have to admit theres a collie at agility who luges on his lead and the owner will yank him back with such force  Makes me cringe.

I do not like seeing dogs yanked around by there neck but a proper 'check' is not enough to unbalance / injure and in my experience inflicts less pressure than a dog pulling excessively in a collar.

Can I ask if a verbal command wasnt enough and your dog was continuing to pull to much for your liking what would you do?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I posted a thread back in August on this and just saw that suddenly it's active again! 

To answer: when I first got Dex, he was incredibly reactive. The two trainers that I tried both insisted that checking/jerking WOULD work and WOULD deal with this.

I can only tell you that not only did fail to help, I actually think it exacerbated the problem. Fortunately I then found a great forum, 'Dogsey', where people told me where I was going wrong AND more crucially, told me to use the 'watch me' command.

The 'watch me' has been amazing - yes it's taken a lot of work, but it has made such a difference. Dex now walks really nicely and although he'll still occasionally lunge, it's far less common and the 'watch me' can prevent it and also help calm him if he does go over threshold i.e. sees a cat.

So for me, jerking or 'correcting' hasn't worked and I prefer not to do it. I also think it's probably unpleasant for the dog.


edited to add

- I should note that I use a figure of eight lead/headcollar which has also helped enormously and enabled me to stop the lunges.


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

After spending weeks and weeks of stepping backwards to turn Indie back to heel and taking forever to go anywhere I have started with a halti so no, I don't 'check' her. But if needs be then I will, a gentle tug won't do any harm, I wouldn't do it too hard.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

DT said:


> I actually think that some people are confusing a jerk and a check !
> And to be honest do wonder how you can train a dog wiithout checking them!
> I honestly do.


I couldnt Millie, even now when we first start I will maybe check her 2 times then she settles in walking next to me.

A check puts less pressur eon a dogs neck than a dog pulling surely?

There is a huuuuuge difference between a yank which unbalances a dog / lifts there paws / yanks there neck to a 'check'


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

There are many different ways to teach heelwork. "Checking" is one way and can be useful to remind a dog of where it should actually be, the noise of the chain usually reminds dog of this so it's not always a case of yanking a dog back.

I don't use this method as my first method though but that's not to say it doesn't work, it does, but it can be frustrating and seem continual.

I always use a treat/toy to teach close heelwork and increase the number of steps.

I will also add that none of my dogs are in a half-check, they're on flat collars with buckles. 

Horses for courses, what works for someone well might be totally wrong for someone else and their dog.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> Because someone 'checks' it doenst mean there walking down the street constantly snapping there lead at the dog
> 
> I have to admit theres a collie at agility who luges on his lead and the owner will yank him back with such force  Makes me cringe.
> 
> ...


Awh! that was the word i was looking for YANKING!
NOW, if the person on the other thread had said yanking (careful with that one could get you a ban) I would have been in the other camp:ciappa:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

8tansox said:


> There are many different ways to teach heelwork. "Checking" is one way and can be useful to remind a dog of where it should actually be, the noise of the chain usually reminds dog of this so it's not always a case of yanking a dog back.
> 
> I don't use this method as my first method though but that's not to say it doesn't work, it does, but it can be frustrating and seem continual.
> 
> ...


Ive done treats and clicker!
But mine are food orinated and glue themselves to your pockets! BUT OK for certain things with us like presenting etc


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Having a breed than can suffer from IVDD(invertebral disc disease) i do not check her as i try to avoid doing anything that would jerk her neck in anyway and potentially cause harm.

Tink has been conditioned using the " silky leash method" to move toward tension on the lead without any need for jerking.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> you have a good point there, but I seem to remember everything we did whether it was walking, sitting, stop we checked first! followed by a single word.


Well if it works for you that's fine. I just go straight to the single word personally.


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## Tillymint (Nov 2, 2010)

Yes I check Tilly if I need to but no I don't yank her of her feet, it was how I was taught at training class.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Because someone 'checks' it doenst mean there walking down the street constantly snapping there lead at the dog
> 
> I have to admit theres a collie at agility who luges on his lead and the owner will yank him back with such force  Makes me cringe.
> 
> ...


I would clicker train my dog indoors while it wasn't hyped enough to pull, which I did for 3 sessions inside and then she's not pulled outside. Wasn't very hard to cure really. If she goes to pull because she's got too much energy etc. I just redirect her with a 'here' command. If my verbal commands weren't working then she obviously needed more training, not jerking, and during that process I doubt I'd jerk, it's not an instinctive reaction for me to jerk a lead, I just tend to hold on.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I posted a thread back in August on this and just saw that suddenly it's active again!
> 
> To answer: when I first got Dex, he was incredibly reactive. The two trainers that I tried both insisted that checking/jerking WOULD work and WOULD deal with this.
> 
> ...


Can I just point out  whilst I say that I 'check' Millie this is based on my experience and based on the two situations in which I am likely to use it. Both where she is not stressed out or panicing.

Where a dog is reactive and scared I think it is a completely different kettle of fish to using a 'check' to slow a dog slightly when walking 

If Dex was pulling a little to much for your liking (not in a headocllar obs) will you 'check' in that you would apply enough pressure to get his attention and slow him?


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

I don't (anymore). It's not because I think it's cruel (well, it _can_ be), but because I don't like to communicate through the lead and collar. I want a direct communication between me and the dog. If I want her to pay attention to me I talk to her and should she for some reason not listen I't remind her by touching her (I'm not talking about hitting or anything, just a little poke). But it's a "personal" contact between her and me, not "impersonal" through the lead. One reason that I don't want to communicated through lead and collar is that I want to be able to communicate with my dog when she's off lead, too.

I have been training dogs for a long time and when I started in the 70's and 80's jerking dogs was the norm, "everyone" trained their dogs that way, me included. I don't consider what I did cruel to the dogs, but I have since then learned more and evolved and as a result I've changed my way of training.


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## Tillymint (Nov 2, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> Having a breed than can suffer from IVDD(invertebral disc disease) i do not check her as i try to avoid doing anything that would jerk her neck in anyway and potentially cause harm.
> 
> Tink has been conditioned using the " silky leash method" to move toward tension on the lead without any need for jerking.


That is a good way of explaining it, I do that too. I walk with the lead short & tight tension until she adjusts to my speed then loosen the lead but then if she's not at my speed I do tend to check & stop.


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## Weezawoo (Aug 5, 2012)

DT said:


> you have a good point there, but I seem to remember everything we did whether it was walking, sitting, stop we checked first! followed by a single word.


I am being taught slightly differently, we are meant to give a command and then check if they don't listen. For example to teach them to leave there is something on the floor walk past and if they sniff leave and a quick check.

Just to clear I do not jerk my dogs in a rough way! I do think there is a difference!


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I would clicker train my dog indoors while it wasn't hyped enough to pull, which I did for 3 sessions inside and then she's not pulled outside. Wasn't very hard to cure really. If she goes to pull because she's got too much energy etc. I just redirect her with a 'here' command. If my verbal commands weren't working then she obviously needed more training, not jerking, and during that process I doubt I'd jerk, it's not an instinctive reaction for me to jerk a lead, I just tend to hold on.


Lol I know its not hard to cure - Millie walks lovely on a lead 95% of the time.

The check is never used when she is hyped up - She hasnt been hyped up on a lead since she was less than a year old.

She is always relaxed when I would use a 'check' but maybe moved from position. The noise of the chain starting to tighting reminds her.

Each to their own.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Lol I know its not hard to cure - Millie walks lovely on a lead 95% of the time.
> 
> The check is never used when she is hyped up - She hasnt been hyped up on a lead since she was less than a year old.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it's because I walk on a harness, not a collar. I started off with a half check when she was younger, but I don't recall checking her on that either, and we moved to a harness very quckly anyway.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

can someone please explain to me what this checking and jerking is?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Weezawoo said:


> I am being taught slightly differently, we are meant to give a command and then check if they don't listen. For example to teach them to leave there is something on the floor walk past and if they sniff leave and a quick check.
> 
> Just to clear I do not jerk my dogs in a rough way! I do think there is a difference!


Well actually! now I come to think of it I think that is how we were taught! BUT, i think I probably used to do it out of habit!
For example when were were walking towards other dogs we would contine to walk and just say over and over, leave, leave;, leave, or no no no


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

i'm not sure if i do or not.. if she's being a nightmare and ignoring me verbally trying to get her attention and she's only pulling because she's being silly and NOT when she's scared or whatever then i do give her a little tug, however she wears a harness most of the time so it's not round her neck. does that count? it's only as a last resort too, if she's listening to me then no i don't.


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

I walk mine on harnesses but do give them a little tug when neccesary, doesn't hurt them just tells them that i am the pack leader


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Nataliee said:


> I walk mine on harnesses but do give them a little tug when neccesary, doesn't hurt them just tells them that i am the pack leader


Ditto - Millies on a harness more time than not these days as I just prefer them unless she is going off lead for the whole walk.

I use the same 'method' whether she is on a harness of collar.

She knows im the pack leader :ciappa:


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

I was taught to check Fred, and I did so, until the day one of the trainers said 'when he lunges that gives you a chance to do a really big check', he was also once 'checked off his feet' by a trainer used to GSD and Rotties.  He somersaulted...

I don't use lead checks to teach dogs to walk on lead, my main problem is to check you need a loose lead, otherwise it's a pull/yank, and if you've got a loose lead why check? I've got lovely lead walking out of my two younger dogs without using checks, but I've also got a very good friend who is also a trainer who does use half checks in her class, and will tell owners to check their dogs when needed - the difference is she doesn't tell people to fit them for that reason as a matter of course - my first dog I was told to get one, and did, and if a dog ever didn't need checking it was Buster! I respect that she knows what she's doing, it's just a method I don't feel I need to teach. Perhaps when I've been teaching classes for 10 years and nothing else works for some dogs I might introduce it, but so far, I've not found it necessary with dogs, or owners, I've taught. 

I would ask someone not to do it if they started doing it in my class.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Many of us have a name for a jerk at the end of the lead, it is called the owner!


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## Symone (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't check Shamaya, but then again I don't need to. 
She use to tug so much on the lead so I bought her a harness, since she has had a harness she was so much nicer.  
However, the other day I was walking her to the town and her flexi came off lock  She saw the opportunity and tried to bolt across the road to another dog. I grabbed her lead, got a bit of rope burn, and she was stopped. I then picked her up and took her home for she was too excited.
I'm guessing I will "Check" her when she's in her teenage months, but only if it is needed. Maybe I will be lucky and she wont become a cheeky little madam then!


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Yes if they do not listen to the warning (usually an OI, or their name in a low tone), I will give a quick tug to the side. There is no point in pulling from the back as it will set off the opposition reflex so I always check to the side. 

Most of the time now they listen to the verbal warning, but I have no problem with checking them if they dont listen, it doesnt hurt them and they're not fussed, it just reminds them that yes they are ment to be walking loose lead and at mums pace!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

No checking or jerking here.

Checking my Yorkshire Terrier would probably badly damage her neck, thus she wears a harness. I don't do it to her so I don't do it to my other dogs either.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

Both my boys wear half checks, and yes i do check them, Dan is getting to be quite bad for moving out of heel and Tummel just finds it hard to remember he's walking onlead. Tummel actually walks better on a flat collar but as his neck is bigger than his head i use a half check to stop him slipping his collar.

I don't see why half checks aren't nice, it's the noise thats used as a check, my boys get 2 warnings first, they'll get their names first, then an Oi and then check if they still aren't lsitening, sometimes with Tummel i have to stop dead as well until he puts himself back to heel(he doesn't walk to heel, but i make him go there before we move).


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Lucky wears a harness but if she starts to pull to get to someone or something (discarded food usually) then I'll give her a little tug just to remind her that I don't want her doing that. Her paws don't leave the ground and its never done with any force. 

Where food is concerned sometimes a verbal command won't do it. We are working on it though.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Perhaps it's because I walk on a harness, not a collar. I started off with a half check when she was younger, but I don't recall checking her on that either, and we moved to a harness very quckly anyway.


Now there's another point, I brought the K9 harness off a pf member recently! and have been using that! Remember my post on the other thread re the tyre chasing! Coming baack yesterday I was checking here (FORGETTING she had go the harness on thats how insignificant it is) and when I checked'jerked her she automatically SAT! i did wonder why at the time!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I do my best not to. Spen's on a half check but not so that I can check him with it, purely for security as they're harder to slip. I was taught that if you're going to check your dog it should be hard enough that they don't ever want it to happen again and quite frankly I'm not prepared to jerk on my dogs neck that hard. If he's not phased by me standing still while he lunges at something then I dread to think how hard I'd have to yank to make him bothered.

There have been occasions where I've lost my rag and jerked the leash but he's always been on his harness and it's had absolutely zero effect on him.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I would clicker train my dog indoors while it wasn't hyped enough to pull, which I did for 3 sessions inside and then she's not pulled outside. Wasn't very hard to cure really. If she goes to pull because she's got too much energy etc. I just redirect her with a 'here' command. If my verbal commands weren't working then she obviously needed more training, not jerking, and during that process I doubt I'd jerk, it's not an instinctive reaction for me to jerk a lead, I just tend to hold on.


Pulling is quite different to lunging into traffic. How would you set up a scenario in your house where you could train your dog not to go mental infront of a busy road? I would rather check his collar than let him carry lunging.

Im genuinely curious as i want to stop Sam from lunging at male dogs and no amount of reward training works and neither does any correction.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Just for informations sake dog breeds and their crosses that may be at increased risk of IVDD include Dachshunds, Bulldogs, Bassett Hounds, Beagles, Corgis, Cocker Spaniels, Pekingese, Shih-Tzus, Poodles, German Shepherds, Labrador Retrievers and Doberman Pinschers

The symptoms can range from mild pain to complete paralysis. more info can be found here http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Dog-Hea...ers/Intervertebral-Disk-Disease/Symptoms.aspx

When there are other options I'd prefer to train one of those and not take the risk. 

This post is not meant to cause offence jsut to enable those reading this thread to make an informed choice.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I do my best not to. Spen's on a half check but not so that I can check him with it, purely for security as they're harder to slip. I was taught that if you're going to check your dog it should be hard enough that they don't ever want it to happen again and quite frankly I'm not prepared to jerk on my dogs neck that hard. If he's not phased by me standing still while he lunges at something then I dread to think how hard I'd have to yank to make him bothered.
> 
> There have been occasions where I've lost my rag and jerked the leash but he's always been on his harness and it's had absolutely zero effect on him.


Checking is to cause a momentary lapse when a dog has zoned into something. That momentary lapse in the dogs focus allows you to then get his attention by either turning him away from whatever is causing him to go ballistic or by allowing him to sniff a treat in your hand.

No one said checking means you got to cause pain or yank a dog off its feet.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I dont think there is anything wrong with giving your dog a small check/tug on the lead every now and then....its just like giving them a tap and an 'oi!' when they have gotten distracted. If you are having to walk down the road constantly checking/tugging/jerking on the lead then something is def not right though!
My lot will amble along on a loose lead most of the time and I like to do some training on lead walks so will slow down, stop and speed up, keeping them right next to me with the 'nicely' command. They are very good at it but unfortunatley I live in a built up busy area, with people shouting, kids running past, roadworks, sirens, take aways strewn over the ground and tons of rubbish everywhere....so even though they are pretty good sometimes I do need to give them a tap and say 'oi!'


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> Just for informations sake dog breeds and their crosses that may be at increased risk of IVDD include Dachshunds, Bulldogs, Bassett Hounds, Beagles, Corgis, Cocker Spaniels, Pekingese, Shih-Tzus, Poodles, German Shepherds, Labrador Retrievers and Doberman Pinschers
> 
> The symptoms can range from mild pain to complete paralysis. more info can be found here Intervertebral Disk Disease (IVDD) in Dogs | Symptoms & Types
> 
> ...


I think a few members on here think checking means that you got to break your dogs neck in the process


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Im genuinely curious as i want to stop Sam from lunging at male dogs and no amount of reward training works and neither does any correction.


Fred used to lunge at everything, then often turn and bite me in frustration! Nearly 2 years of checking made no difference to that. Keeping him below threshhold was the only thing that worked, which meant giving him distance and time so he was in the mindset to learn. I couldn't walk him anywhere near a park with ball games in it when he was younger without a muzzle to protect myself, but now he's offlead and unless someone kicks a ball REALLY close to him, he'll leave it.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

BoredomBusters said:


> Fred used to lunge at everything, then often turn and bite me in frustration! Nearly 2 years of checking made no difference to that. Keeping him below threshhold was the only thing that worked, which meant giving him distance and time so he was in the mindset to learn. I couldn't walk him anywhere near a park with ball games in it when he was younger without a muzzle to protect myself, but now he's offlead and unless someone kicks a ball REALLY close to him, he'll leave it.


Dependent on the dog that Sam can see he seems to have no threshold, be it 2m away or 200m away. He wont lunge, but he will stand and stare if its far without caring what im saying to him or if there is a treat infront of his nose. If the dog is close Sam goes ballistic.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Yes, I do check and I dont have a problem with people doing it.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Whilst I walk Sophie on a martingale for city walks, pee walks, etc its more for safety then correction. Tho this morning her and a dog were having barking match it did sound like she was being strangled as I continued on walking and she was to busy dancing on her hind legs to pay attention.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Um- no not really- because he is walked on a harness or headcollar it makes sod all difference!

Grabbing the handle on his K9 harness however- and lifting his paws off the floor to turn him, because he has fixated on something or is making a fuss- hell yes.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Dependent on the dog that Sam can see he seems to have no threshold, be it 2m away or 200m away. He wont lunge, but he will stand and stare if its far without caring what im saying to him or if there is a treat infront of his nose. If the dog is close Sam goes ballistic.


Beyond my training experience in that case, lunging is so frustrating, I often went home from training in tears, I had to do a lot of work on lowering stress (both of ours!) and stopped doing quite so much (I really got into doing stuff with him) and I think the more relaxed lifestyle as well as more down time and my increasing knowledge of other training methods helped - we used Ttouch ground work, those figure of 8s really seemed to help Fred. Perhaps a mix of things with your Sam? Highly recommend Sarah Fisher if you ever get a chance to see her. Her techniques helped me with Fred, so we could put a behaviourst's plan in action. I don't think without the things I was taught about ttouch the programme would have worked at all.


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

No I never check.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> *I dont think there is anything wrong with giving your dog a small check/tug on the lead every now and then....its just like giving them a tap and an 'oi!' when they have gotten distracted. If you are having to walk down the road constantly checking/tugging/jerking on the lead then something is def not right though!*My lot will amble along on a loose lead most of the time and I like to do some training on lead walks so will slow down, stop and speed up, keeping them right next to me with the 'nicely' command. They are very good at it but unfortunatley I live in a built up busy area, with people shouting, kids running past, roadworks, sirens, take aways strewn over the ground and tons of rubbish everywhere....so even though they are pretty good sometimes I do need to give them a tap and say 'oi!'


Ecellent point and mine exactly.

With Millie it takes 1 maybe 2 'checks' then she settles into her plod to heel.

When Millie was younger and had issues with walking nicely on a lead I used a Halti combination for a few weeks to nip her pulling in the bud quickly.

I personally dont think a check is any use on a stressed / lunging dog but then ive never had a dog which exhibits this behaviour so I am no expert and wont pretend to be.

I can only talk about the way I have used it with Millie.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Dependent on the dog that Sam can see he seems to have no threshold, be it 2m away or 200m away. He wont lunge, but he will stand and stare if its far without caring what im saying to him or if there is a treat infront of his nose. If the dog is close Sam goes ballistic.


Are you a member of the Japanese Akita Welfare Trust (JAWT) Forum?

If your not I recommend joining.

You can get some excellent advice from people with real life breed experience


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Checking is to cause a momentary lapse when a dog has zoned into something. That momentary lapse in the dogs focus allows you to then get his attention by either turning him away from whatever is causing him to go ballistic or by allowing him to sniff a treat in your hand.
> 
> No one said checking means you got to cause pain or yank a dog off its feet.


But how far do you take that "check" to get the attention? I've used the method before and have to say that it's been completely ineffective with a dog who's going ballistic at something, they don't even notice it unless you do it hard enough to hurt them or yank them off their feet. I've seen people put all their strength into checking their dog, the dog land on its side, get back up and carry on going ballistic over and over.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Um- no not really- because he is walked on a harness or headcollar it makes sod all difference!
> 
> Grabbing the handle on his K9 harness however- and lifting his paws off the floor to turn him, because he has fixated on something or is making a fuss- hell yes.


when I tug on the K9 she just sits!
So guess she must have associated it with checking!
I had even forgotton we had the harness on yesterday but did wonder why she kept looking at me and sitting in the snow!
Cruel mum that I am


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> Are you a member of the Japanese Akita Welfare Trust (JAWT) Forum?
> 
> If your not I recommend joining.
> 
> You can get some excellent advice from people with real life breed experience


I have a feeling 5ivers in a pretty competent handler Millie


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

DT said:


> when I tug on the K9 she just sits!
> So guess she must have associated it with checking!
> I had even forgotton we had the harness on yesterday but did wonder why she kept looking at me and sitting in the snow!
> Cruel mum that I am


LOL- you am mean!! Dex will sit if we are at the curb side and I pull his harness slightly....... but in snow? where is that RSPCA number................


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## mimi g (Mar 10, 2009)

Yup i check..mainly for same reason as Millie..fixating on other dogs. No amount of +ve reinforcement snaps my 2 out of a stare and if the other dog fixates back it can get abit hairy, a little tug and walk on can work a treat though, for mine its like someone snapping their fingers in a persons face when they are daydreaming. I always treat for walking past a dog with no fuss. Its not for everyone...but i have no problem with it done gently and in a calm manner.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

DT said:


> I have a feeling 5ivers in a pretty competent handler Millie


  Just trying to be helpful


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> Just trying to be helpful


I knows milly! it was meant as a sort of not joke, but funny


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

If it causes pain - don't do it.

If it doesn't, re-focusses dog, and nothing else will work - fine.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

mimi g said:


> Yup i check..mainly for same reason as Millie..fixating on other dogs. No amount of +ve reinforcement snaps my 2 out of a stare and if the other dog fixates back it can get abit hairy, a little tug and walk on can work a treat though, for mine its like someone snapping their fingers in a persons face when they are daydreaming. I always treat for walking past a dog with no fuss. Its not for everyone...but i have no problem with it done gently and in a calm manner.


Same here with Alfie and cats


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

DT said:


> I knows milly! it was meant as a sort of not joke, but funny


I have a tired brain.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I would and I do. 

You can only take positive training so far before the dog realises that they are rewarded for the good things and nothing happens for the bad. Thats why even in the human world we have star charts then naughty corners for children. There has to be a balance. And whilst I train and will encourage positive reinforcement - sometimes a dog does need discipline. 

And if anyone disagrees with me - so be it.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> LOL- you am mean!! Dex will sit if we are at the curb side and I pull his harness slightly....... but in snow? where is that RSPCA number................


it's all fallen into place now! as she was going into the sit so slowly and sort of looking at me as if to you 'you're joking' arn't you!
I actaully thought to myself shes doing OK today! but completely forgot we had the harness on


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## Beth17 (Jun 5, 2012)

I do tug Oscar gently if he starts to stare in the opposite direction to get him to move along etc however a voice command will usually do with him.

Sam is walked on a harness and I do have to tug him and get his attention more than with Oscar because he can't hear a verbal command. It doesn't hurt him but gets his attention when he's powering forward ignoring me or lunging to the side. He is getting better with loose lead walking everyday though.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

SLB said:


> I would and I do.
> 
> You can only take positive training so far before the dog realises that they are rewarded for the good things and nothing happens for the bad. Thats why even in the human world we have star charts then naughty corners for children. There has to be a balance. And whilst I train and will encourage positive reinforcement - sometimes a dog does need discipline.
> 
> And if anyone disagrees with me - so be it.


you may get called the same name as me!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

DT said:


> it's all fallen into place now! as she was going into the sit so slowly and sort of looking at me as if to you 'you're joking' arn't you!
> I actaully thought to myself shes doing OK today! but completely forgot we had the harness on


Bless her little cotton socks "if I do dis sit reals slow- maybe she'll tell me is ok I dont have to"


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

DT said:


> you may get called the same name as me!


That's alright there's 3 of us now, I'm usually on my own on this one.

I think all 3 of us have broad shoulders


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

SLB said:


> I would and I do.
> 
> You can only take positive training so far before the dog realises that they are rewarded for the good things and nothing happens for the bad. Thats why even in the human world we have star charts then naughty corners for children. There has to be a balance. And whilst I train and will encourage positive reinforcement - sometimes a dog does need discipline.
> 
> And if anyone disagrees with me - so be it.


Call me old fashioned but I agree.

I look at some people and there dogs arnt actually doing as asked but more being bribed by food if that makes sense.

I think there to much of a good thing


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## mimi g (Mar 10, 2009)

rona said:


> Same here with Alfie and cats


I do it for cats to  Although if the cat sets off running Tia goes all whippety kung fu crazy and starts throwing shapes on the end of the lead. We then have to turn and walk in the other direction until she is back on 4 paws.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

mimi g said:


> Tia goes all whippety kung fu crazy and starts throwing shapes on the end of the lead..


LOVE THIS lol


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## Booties (Nov 23, 2012)

I shake the lead, and tug on it so as the dogs feel a very gentle two nudges on their neck when it's to encourage attention/discourage misbehaviour.

If they lag behind, I carry on walking very slowly to give the same gentle pull effect, while clicking/calling.

If that counts as checking, yes, I do.

This is less pressure than they feel by pulling on the collar, and definitely no more than they feel when rolling around being tackled during "mouthless" play.


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## mimi g (Mar 10, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> LOVE THIS lol


LOL...maybe i should enter the next 'that dog can dance'....yes my dog can breakdance&freestyle!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

SLB said:


> I would and I do.
> 
> You can only take positive training so far before the dog realises that they are rewarded for the good things and nothing happens for the bad. Thats why even in the human world we have star charts then naughty corners for children. There has to be a balance. And whilst I train and will encourage positive reinforcement - sometimes a dog does need discipline.
> 
> And if anyone disagrees with me - so be it.


There should always be consequences but jerking a dog does not have to be one of them.

To say_ nothing happens for the bad _ is just poor training.

Of course if there are no consequences for doing something inappropriate then there is no reason for a dog to stop doing it.

Discipline is just another word for rules which can be enforced without the need for any positive punishment or physical force.

What people PREFER to use, is another matter.


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## Booties (Nov 23, 2012)

Interesting how people keep confusing "checking" and "jerking"... 

What I do is no worse than tapping a human on the shoulder to get their attention- I'm not sure it even counts as checking.

It's not like people you see ripping their dogs back off their paws.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> That's alright there's 3 of us now, I'm usually on my own on this one.
> 
> I think all 3 of us have broad shoulders


Yep! I think we all own a good set of those
Its all that jerking


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Booties said:


> Interesting how people keep confusing "checking" and "jerking"...
> 
> What I do is no worse than tapping a human on the shoulder to get their attention- I'm not sure it even counts as checking.
> 
> It's not like people you see ripping their dogs back off their paws.


Not a matter of confusion, one person's "_check_" is another person's "_jerk_" is another person's "_yank_" etc.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Booties said:


> Interesting how people keep confusing "checking" and "jerking"...
> 
> What I do is no worse than tapping a human on the shoulder to get their attention- I'm not sure it even counts as checking.
> 
> It's not like people you see ripping their dogs back off their paws.


I was taught that a check was a punishment and if you were going to punish your dog it better be severe enough that the dog doesn't ever want it to happen again. So checks were hard yanks on the leash, which was attached to a choke chain, and they were meant to hurt. What would be the point in them as a punishment if they didn't? So yeah, that's what "checking" means to me. Obviously it seems to mean different things to other people.

I try not to tug on the leash at all coz I think it's way too easy to escalate it when you don't get the desired response.


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## Pindonkey (Feb 5, 2012)

I am in the same boat as moonviolet. I have a beagle so i prefer not to check, i walk with a harmess too. 

Although i have done so before some time ago now. I dont really see why you would need to tug on the leash when there are other options, of course everybody has their own preference and this is just mine but if a dog is doing something and i have to resort to using a tug on the leash to get his attention then surely i have gone wrong somewhere in the training?


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## Booties (Nov 23, 2012)

jerk 1 (jûrk)
v. jerked, jerk·ing, jerks
v.tr.
1. To give a sudden quick thrust, push, pull, or twist to.
2. To throw or toss with a quick abrupt motion.

With all due respect to everyone's training methods, I think the definition has got confused.

I do not use checking to train or punish my dog- only to get his/her attention.

I do not jerk, pull, or forcefully move the dog. I tug gently on the collar twice- like you might tug on someone's sleeve to get their attention.

I do this regardless of what type of collar the dog is in- I do not use choke chains, and I do not cause a single second of pain to my dogs.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

it does seem as though all the people who are really against doing it are seeing it as a punishment and something that would hurt the dog? correct me if i'm wrong though.
i only ever tug on the lead to get her attention when she's ignoring me, i don't do it to tell her off and i certainly don't do it hard enough to hurt her!


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Booties said:


> What I do is no worse than tapping a human on the shoulder to get their attention- I'm not sure it even counts as checking.


If you wanted to address another person you'd probably use your voice in the first place, perhaps say "excuse me...". If that wasn't possible, a tap on the shoulder would be acceptable behaviour as well. What wouldn't be very polite was to start tugging on someones clothes to get their attention.

To check is not the same thing as tapping someone on the shoulder, because when you check you're communicating through an object, almost like tugging at someones clothes.

As I said before, I want to communicate personally with my dog. I don't want to be dependant on a lead to communicate, because I also want to be able to communicate when the dog is off lead.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

tiatortilla said:


> it does seem as though all the people who are really against doing it are seeing it as a punishment and something that would hurt the dog? correct me if i'm wrong though.
> i only ever tug on the lead to get her attention when she's ignoring me, i don't do it to tell her off and i certainly don't do it hard enough to hurt her!


No, I don't think it necessarily have to hurt and in most cases I don't think people are hurting their dogs (but it also can be misused and be harmful to dogs, of course). I just don't see the point in communicating through lead and collar, when I can speak and, if necessary, touch my dog. Using a lead to communicate just feels unnatural to me. And of course, I want to be able to communicate with my dog off lead.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

I use my dogs names to get their attention... They're only on lead about 10 mins most days, if that!

As I said before, if other people want to do it, that's fine, I don't see it as punishment, for some dogs they can learn it's a reward, or even just an event marker. I don't think it ever hurt Fred when I checked him, but it wasn't very efficient as a training technique because it had to be repeated, I could never stop doing it until I taught him a different way.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

I agree with Vicki. I don't want to have to rely on the lead to get my dog to do what I want - a voice command is usually sufficient to get them to return to heel if I want them there and if it isn't then I stop moving. That gets the message across pretty quick and I think is more analogous to a naughty step then a physical intervention.

I need to be able to break both of their focus with a voice command - Gypsy as she will fixate on wildlife and if she is off lead then I need to be able to reach her even if I'm not within arms length. Ely because if he is fixed on a dog then the last thing I want to do is to check him and risk upping his stress level.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

BoredomBusters said:


> I use my dogs names to get their attention... They're only on lead about 10 mins most days, if that!
> 
> As I said before, if other people want to do it, that's fine, I don't see it as punishment, for some dogs they can learn it's a reward, or even just an event marker. I don't think it ever hurt Fred when I checked him, but it wasn't very efficient as a training technique because it had to be repeated, I could never stop doing it until I taught him a different way.


But there is a lot of training to be covered prior to being able/confident to allow the dogs to be walked off lead.

Ours are seldom on a lead, but when I walk one indivually, as I did yesterday I had her leashed and would say she was harder work, but we walked rather then drove to our stomping ground and this entailed crossing a few roads so was the only option.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

L/C said:


> I agree with Vicki. I don't want to have to rely on the lead to get my dog to do what I want - a voice command is usually sufficient to get them to return to heel if I want them there and if it isn't then I stop moving. That gets the message across pretty quick and I think is more analogous to a naughty step then a physical intervention.
> 
> I need to be able to break both of their focus with a voice command - Gypsy as she will fixate on wildlife and if she is off lead then I need to be able to reach her even if I'm not within arms length. Ely because if he is fixed on a dog then the last thing I want to do is to check him and risk upping his stress level.


Thats fine, but I believe this thread was born due to another thread relating to a dog that was lunging at motorbikes So out of curiosity, and this is not just for yourself but for anyone how would you have dealt with that?

My query is genuine by the way, not directed at you specifically


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Opps! sorry LC meant to quote bordom busters
but open to everyone


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I check my dogs when I'm teaching heelwork training, to tighten up their position work. But I also use my feet and try to give them cues so it's not just dragging them round the field jerking them in different directions, it's using my position and contact with them to tell them what's happening next, and making it into a game so they can guess right and *win*. I also do something called 'kicking them off', which isn't kicking them at all, it's putting physical pressure against them to encourage them to push back, which brings them in closer to me.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

5rivers79 said:


> Pulling is quite different to lunging into traffic. How would you set up a scenario in your house where you could train your dog not to go mental infront of a busy road? I would rather check his collar than let him carry lunging.
> 
> *Im genuinely curious as i want to stop Sam from lunging at male dogs and no amount of reward training works and neither does any correction.*


Dex's default response to anything he is scared of or unsure of has always been a violent lunge. It's taken a hell of a lot of work but honestly the 'watch me' really has helped hugely.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

DT said:


> But there is a lot of training to be covered prior to being able/confident to allow the dogs to be walked off lead.


I don't do any training prior to letting the dog off lead. I keep my dogs off lead from the age of 8 weeks and they learn how to be off lead. Some dogs can't be trusted to be off lead as much in their teens, so during that period I use the lead a lot more (they do get time off lead every day, though). When I'm training with a lead it's to teach the dog how to behave on lead, not how to behave off lead.

Training a dog to be off lead by using the lead to check it seems counter procuctive to me.


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## Booties (Nov 23, 2012)

I think some dogs respond better to different methods of training, just as some children respond better to different methods of teaching.

With Flo being a beagle and Mori being a puppy, I'm very very gentle with them. 

For example, despite 5 years+ of training, Flo will not respond just to voice commands if there's another dog barking at her, a bunny to chase, etc. Pulling on her collar so much as to make the front of it (normally just about touching her neck) assert the smallest amount of pressure possible is not at all cruel or a bad way of training. I do not use sharp yanks, nor do I use chains. I just tap twice, it works the same as a clicker cue to some.

To a stranger, I may say "excuse me" and not touch them, but if I couldn't get a friend or family member's attention, I would tap them on the shoulder the same way I make a dog's collar tap them on the neck.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

DT said:


> But there is a lot of training to be covered prior to being able/confident to allow the dogs to be walked off lead.
> 
> Ours are seldom on a lead, but when I walk one indivually, as I did yesterday I had her leashed and would say she was harder work, but we walked rather then drove to our stomping ground and this entailed crossing a few roads so was the only option.





DT said:


> Thats fine, but I believe this thread was born due to another thread relating to a dog that was lunging at motorbikes So out of curiosity, and this is not just for yourself but for anyone how would you have dealt with that?
> 
> My query is genuine by the way, not directed at you specifically


Yes you're right, off lead walking has to be built up to, and my training is based on getting young puppies as soon as possible. I don't deal with 'behaviour' problems, but in my experience dogs lunging at traffic is a 'chase' problem so I would want to get some history, and then start from where necessary. That might mean teaching a dog to respond to its name, teaching the owner something about their breed, working on focus exercises, or going straight into working on the chase problem - which would start with something easy, such as not chasing a ball (for dogs mad for chasing balls it might be, not chasing something else, more boring). And I'd give the owner management techniques for when they have to walk the dog during training.

That's a rough guide! Every dog and owner is different, every issue is different. Oh, and I'd probably teach a 'leave' as well, which is one of my favs. And I'm reward based, not 'positive only', so happy to tell dogs off when necessary.


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## Reverie (Mar 26, 2012)

I mainly walk Buffy on a harness so nope, no checking. I've recently switched to a front leading harness so she can't really pull me anyway. If I need her attention, her name will usually do the trick. Sometimes I have to hold her in if she is trying to get to a person/dog but that's about it.

I recently started walking a husky and her owner told me to give her a yank if she started pulling or playing up, I wasn't sure what to do in this situation as I don't really agree with it, safe to say I will not be yanking his dog so I'm glad he's not there to see me being 'soft'.  He believes all that Caesar Milan 'show them who's boss' stuff and I usually just smile and nod :yesnod: while inwardly: :rolleyes5: He's a nice man but I believe he doesn't need to be so forceful with her.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I use to check Dillon a lot when his was younger, but since he started to wear a Dogmatic headcollar I have no need to do it.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

If I had a dog that was prone to lunging (and I do but it's at cats and wildlife for one and other dogs for the other) then I would walk the dog on a harness for more control.

When the dog lunged I wouldn't move and would hold still. When a dog is that over threshold then it isn't going to register a check - so making sure it can't reach it's intended target and potentially injure itself/cat/dog/bird whatever is the goal. With a lunging dog I can't see how any check short of something very painful is going to make any difference. Even then for a lot of dogs then I could imagine it would amp up their reaction and not control it at all.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

I used to give Rossi's collar a little tug when I first got him as he had never been walked before and became unbelievably over excited just to be outside the front door. It was never ott or used as a punishment or to inflict pain but purely to stop him from completely losing it and I could get him into a sit.

He is now walked in a head halti so no never gets a jerk or tug now as it is dangerouse and I have more control now anyway! Unless he sees a cat of course, then it's just a matter of holding on for life!

With scooby however, he does get checked with a nylon slip lead. He is reactive to other dogs and ill do before he starts to get all worked up snuffing and whining and spinning around at the end of the leash. He gets more hot dog then he does corrections but it has worked wonders for us, a jack Russell even approached us and got very close to scooby without him reacting at all! 

I don't see anything wrong with it unless your using excessive force or doing it out of frustration or anger, to me it's a simple nudge to say "hey, look over here" when a verbal que has been ignored!


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

DT said:


> Opps! sorry LC meant to quote bordom busters
> but open to everyone


And I felt so special. :crying:

:lol:


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

L/C said:


> If I had a dog that was prone to lunging (and I do but it's at cats and wildlife for one and other dogs for the other) then I would walk the dog on a harness for more control.
> 
> When the dog lunged I wouldn't move and would hold still. When a dog is that over threshold then it isn't going to register a check - so making sure it can't reach it's intended target and potentially injure itself/cat/dog/bird whatever is the goal. With a lunging dog I can't see how any check short of something very painful is going to make any difference. Even then for a lot of dogs then I could imagine it would amp up their reaction and not control it at all.


To be honest walking a lunging dog on a harness just gives it masses more freedom to lunge as you are connected to its back- not its head/neck- where the head goes the rest must follow- i'd always advise (and only based on my monster of a lunging screaming foot stamping lunatic!) a headcollar to be able to turn the dog away from whatever sets it off. You are right tho a check on a dog over threshold will make NAFF all difference unless it is done with some force- most are talking about giving a gentle check before the dog escalates to this point- and regaining focus- to avoid the lunge in the first place.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Vicki said:


> I don't do any training prior to letting the dog off lead. I keep my dogs off lead from the age of 8 weeks and they learn how to be off lead. Some dogs can't be trusted to be off lead as much in their teens, so during that period I use the lead a lot more (they do get time off lead every day, though). When I'm training with a lead it's to teach the dog how to behave on lead, not how to behave off lead.
> 
> Training a dog to be off lead by using the lead to check it seems counter procuctive to me.


I am not sure if you are talking about how you train your own dogs, or how you train people to train their dogs?

My other half seldom uses a lead, and moans at me when I releash my current dogs now when lets say I see someone in the distance with a leashed dogs, he is 99% confident that his voice is all thats needed, alas I am not! Our last dog we were 100% confident and there would have been no need to have even taken a leash, albeit we always did.

I have over many years been to many different training classes, not because I dont like a particular one i add, but because its been like a hobby, Each of these have been different! different handlers with different techniques . Some of these have been average, some below average and some above average, BUT thats only my opinion, and a class I like another may not.
Of all the classes we have been to and trainers we have met one, the youngest of them all stands head and shoulders above the rest, and i would say she is excellent, others may not.

Milly should have been very easy to train because she is so focused on titbit rewards, but this in our case was counterproductive as it made her lazy, she would just lay down and look at you. But If i whistel her she's 99% but cannot imagine a whislte would control a lunging dog.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

L/C said:


> If I had a dog that was prone to lunging (and I do but it's at cats and wildlife for one and other dogs for the other) then I would walk the dog on a harness for more control.
> 
> When the dog lunged I wouldn't move and would hold still. When a dog is that over threshold then it isn't going to register a check - so making sure it can't reach it's intended target and potentially injure itself/cat/dog/bird whatever is the goal. With a lunging dog I can't see how any check short of something very painful is going to make any difference. Even then for a lot of dogs then I could imagine it would amp up their reaction and not control it at all.


I actually found I had less control with a harness! Especially if a dog was approaching us! He also, somehow managed to split his skin open by his armpit trying to get out if it. It was not safe at all for him or anything that has triggered his reaction, walking him on a slip lead has given all the control back and he is a lot calmer now listening to commands etc.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> To be honest walking a lunging dog on a harness just gives it masses more freedom to lunge as you are connected to its back- not its head/neck- where the head goes the rest must follow- i'd always advise (and only based on my monster of a lunging screaming foot stamping lunatic!) a headcollar to be able to turn the dog away from whatever sets it off. You are right tho a check on a dog over threshold will make NAFF all difference unless it is done with some force- most are talking about giving a gentle check before the dog escalates to this point- and regaining focus- to avoid the lunge in the first place.


It's not a risk that I would take with a greyhound or other sighthound. The acceleration and power from their back legs would whip their heads around too fast. I've never used a head collar for that reason and I'm not much of a fan tbh. For me a harness gives me more control as I'm not worrying about them injuring their necks as I would be on a head collar or a flat collar.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2013)

L/C said:


> It's not a risk that I would take with a greyhound or other sighthound. The acceleration and power from their back legs would whip their heads around too fast. I've never used a head collar for that reason and I'm not much of a fan tbh. For me a harness gives me more control as I'm not worrying about them injuring their necks as I would be on a head collar or a flat collar.


^ *THIS!!!*

Having a sighthound launch forward on a headcollar is hideous!! I used to worry he might break his neck!


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Ill admit when Im getting stressed I have pulled Dottie back via her harness. I know its wrong and teaches nothing as she carries on but some days I dont fancy being pulled on my backside for sake of sniffing another dogs poo.

I never do it on a collar though as I dont want to crush their windpipes. 
I do it out of stress which aint right so I just walk REALLY slowly until they slow down too. If anything for my 2 a yank goes un noticed espcially when they rare up.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I`ll use the lead to pull a dog back . But for attention I find the voice is more effective.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

The key with a headcollar is to use it correctly and turn them before the lunge- breaking the sight of whatever it is they fixate on. It should also be used on a double ended lead so if a lunge does occur the pressure is taken off the headcollar and put on to the other end flat collar/harness- yes easier said than done when said dog sees whatever before you- but perfectly possible.

Gosh what did we all do before the invention of the walking harness/headcollar LOL


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

DT said:


> I am not sure if you are talking about how you train your own dogs, or how you train people to train their dogs?


Both. But of course, I can't decide how others should train their dogs; I can only give advice and my opinion, the rest is up to them. But when I teach puppy classes we do exercises with the dogs off lead.

What's important though is to make sure that the dog doesn't reward itself by for example running up to other dogs, so it's not just about letting the dog off the lead; you have to work with the dog when it's off lead. That's one of the reasons that I want people to take the lead off in my classes. If the lead is on they can drag, pull and check the dog and it will follow. With the lead off, they have to communicate directly with the dog. That's usually the hardest with dogs that are used to the owner communicating through the lead and it's not uncommon that they use their freedom to race around.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Vicki said:


> Both. But of course, I can't decide how others should train their dogs; I can only give advice and my opinion, the rest is up to them. But when I teach puppy classes we do exercises with the dogs off lead.
> 
> What's important though is to make sure that the dog doesn't reward itself by for example running up to other dogs, so it's not just about letting the dog off the lead; you have to work with the dog when it's off lead. That's one of the reasons that I want people to take the lead off in my classes. If the lead is on they can drag, pull and check the dog and it will follow. With the lead off, they have to communicate directly with the dog. That's usually the hardest with dogs that are used to the owner communicating through the lead and it's not uncommon that they use their freedom to race around.


your classes sound as thought they would be very enjoyalbe, I wish you had been close to me when mine were pups, the class we went to first, not my favorite, the dogs got 10 mins off lead, and during that time I saw a few agression incidents too! and then it was all leadwork. needless to say we didn't stay there long but do have an odd wander up there occasionally.


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## LauraJane9 (Oct 3, 2012)

'Checking' has never even occurred to me, Sully and Dex are annoying sniffers they can sniff one bit of grass for what seems like forever but I've always just called to them to get them moving.

I've never been too fussed about a perfect lead walk as long as they aren't pulling I don't mind them not being right at my heel.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I do sometimes, I have to otherwise I could be off on a full speed trot if a rabbit appears. I find it breaks the concentration and with a head collar it takes it immediately out of view. Saw a heron in the field the other day and Flynns stare is intense, if I let it continue he could take off after it so I have to snap him out of it. Quite harmless and not abusing IMO. My Mals are far stronger than me and I think I'm the one to suffer abuse not them! 

No time for treats or faffing around in situations like that with a 63kgs dog - just not safe!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Yes I do.

I am very picky, and like to have perfect heel work.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

See this is the problem that I have.

Nothing not toys not voice commands not treats nothing gets Sophies attention at all, I'm just talking to cement ground.

I find the only way to stop the action is to just carry on walking she will either a) grumble while walking sideways until said dog is out of view or b) if the slagging match is on both side shes on her hind legs walking backwards.

I have debated a headcollar. I have found one that is designed to not injure the dogs kneck as it clips behind the head not infront by the nose so there is no whip action

When I mentioned this to family I was told not to bother but the thing is I walk Sophie 97 % of the time on my own Id like to enjoy my walks and Im sure Sophie would to.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Yes I do.

I am very picky, and like to have perfect heel work. 

I have tried the stopping and starting but it just isn't as effective...


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> Just for informations sake dog breeds and their crosses that may be at increased risk of IVDD include Dachshunds, Bulldogs, Bassett Hounds, Beagles, Corgis, Cocker Spaniels, Pekingese, Shih-Tzus, Poodles, German Shepherds, Labrador Retrievers and Doberman Pinschers
> 
> The symptoms can range from mild pain to complete paralysis. more info can be found here Intervertebral Disk Disease (IVDD) in Dogs | Symptoms & Types
> 
> ...


Don't forget to add CKCS to the list. My dads Barbara Woodhouse impression injured his poor chaps neck and now they use a harness. No small breed should be jerked.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Don't forget to add CKCS to the list. My dads Barbara Woodhouse impression injured his poor chaps neck and now they use a harness. No small breed should be jerked.


Obviously force should be changed depending on the size of dog...


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Can I ask to those who do check (and emphasising Sarah's point) - if checking worked, why would you need to do it often?


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

dandogman said:


> I am very picky, and like to have perfect heel work.


Me too, which is why I *don't* check or jerk. I did that on my first three dogs and they had a very good heel work, but they didn't look happy. In fact, one of them hated heel work, even if she performed it very well.

My last three dogs are clicker trained, they get high scores on their heel work in obedience competitions and they do it with happiness.

To me it's a no brainer, I take the happy dog with the perfect heel work over the dog that just has the perfect heel work.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

tiatortilla said:


> it does seem as though all the people who are really against doing it are seeing it as a punishment and something that would hurt the dog? correct me if i'm wrong though.
> i only ever tug on the lead to get her attention when she's ignoring me, i don't do it to tell her off and i certainly don't do it hard enough to hurt her!


I do see it as punishment, and it doesn't come naturally to me. What comes naturally to me if my dog is ignoring me is to say something verbally or just ignore her completely.


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## blossom21 (Oct 29, 2012)

I was shown how to check for pulling at dog classes, quick and release not to hurt.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Vicki said:


> I don't do any training prior to letting the dog off lead. I keep my dogs off lead from the age of 8 weeks and they learn how to be off lead. Some dogs can't be trusted to be off lead as much in their teens, so during that period I use the lead a lot more (they do get time off lead every day, though). When I'm training with a lead it's to teach the dog how to behave on lead, not how to behave off lead.
> 
> Training a dog to be off lead by using the lead to check it seems counter procuctive to me.


Agree with this Vicki. Kes is a lot less obedient off lead now she's a teen so I use the lead more, but I taught my heel with the aid of a lead so don't see what a lead would have added quite frankly


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

I do "check" but don't "jerk" or "yank" - interesting thread because these terms all seem to mean different things to different people!

Normally a gentle tweak of the lead is enough to get Scooter's attention. With Breeze I don't need to check her, her name is enough to get her focus on me, otherwise I stop and wait for her to look around. 
Scooter goes "deaf" to me and to treats and to toys if he's caught a really good scent, so if he's pulling I will check him to remind him I'm still there! I use that as a kind of warning and if he continues to ignore me we turn and go the other way - without jerking, just a "this way!"
Mine are either on a harness or a flat collar.

Checking is fine in my books. A Woodhouse-Yank is not.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

sezeelson said:


> I actually found I had less control with a harness! Especially if a dog was approaching us! He also, somehow managed to split his skin open by his armpit trying to get out if it. It was not safe at all for him or anything that has triggered his reaction, walking him on a slip lead has given all the control back and he is a lot calmer now listening to commands etc.


It sounds like your harnesses were badly designed if they split his armpits...as for slip leads I don't agree with using them on a dog who will lunge, it's no different to use a choke chain.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Can I ask to those who do check (and emphasising Sarah's point) - if checking worked, why would you need to do it often?


I check constantly, sometimes the check is accompanied by a word or words sometimes not,
There is a bike ,a dog a jogger is coming towards us on the path, I flick my wrist and say NO.

We get to a road, I flick my wrist and sometimes say sit sometimes not.

Guess its just a habit! we communitcate throught the lead!

BUT she has more time off lead then on and isnt that good on the leat if Im honest. BUT certainly more attentive OFF


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> Obviously force should be changed depending on the size of dog...


Not according to professional vets it shouldn't. Vets recommend many small breeds do not even wear collars because lunging, jerking, checking, whatever can easily damage small fragile necks. It's one of the weakest parts of the body.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I think it is wise to remember it is the DOG that decides what is punishing, not us.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Nope, he's far too small. It would be far too easy to injure him pulling at the neck.
I feel a bit funny doing anything physically forceful in anyway with Henri because he is such a sensitive soul, I can't see him taking well to it.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Not according to professional vets it shouldn't. Vets recommend many small breeds do not even wear collars because lunging, jerking, checking, whatever can easily damage small fragile necks. It's one of the weakest parts of the body.


Probably why a lot of small dogs are so poorly behaved. They can get away with murder...


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

blossom21 said:


> I was shown how to check for pulling at dog classes, quick and release not to hurt.


have you popped your dogs' collar around yoru neck and tried it?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> I check constantly, sometimes the check is accompanied by a word or words sometimes not,
> There is a bike ,a dog a jogger is coming towards us on the path, I flick my wrist and say NO.
> 
> We get to a road, I flick my wrist and sometimes say sit sometimes not.
> ...


Why do you have to jerk and say no unless your dog has not been training appropriately to ignore those objects? It took me a week of the 'watch me' command to have Kes sit on the pavement and stay while distractions went past...


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> Probably why a lot of small dogs are so poorly behaved. They can get away with murder...


Oh back to that one again. I don't think not being jerked on a lead has anything to do with 'getting away with murder'


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

If people are checking their dogs and it's a negative reaction, I'd suggest it's not being used in the right way. It is possible to check your dog, and still have them smiling. I use it when I change direction, or stop, it is simply a small check, if the check doesn't happen, then they know they've got it right and they've *won*. 

I also (as I said) use footwork, so tell the dog what sort of turn is coming up, and encourage them to beat me at getting their heelwork right. 

I don't walk my dogs for long straight lines, checking them because they are interested in sniffing, or because there's a strange dog/cat etc. I'm not interested in yanking my dogs off their feet all the time because they're pulling me all over the place. I use it during training, so that I don't have to check them the rest of the time.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Vicki said:


> Me too, which is why I *don't* check or jerk. I did that on my first three dogs and they had a very good heel work, but they didn't look happy. In fact, one of them hated heel work, even if she performed it very well.
> 
> My last three dogs are clicker trained, they get high scores on their heel work in obedience competitions and they do it with happiness.
> 
> To me it's a no brainer, I take the happy dog with the perfect heel work over the dog that just has the perfect heel work.


Perfect heelwork does not come about by jerking, yanking or any other name you want to call it.

If you look at top competitors doing perfect heelwork they do not even use a lead. 

Suzanne Clothier wisely said:

_Cooperation weighs nothing Weight & strength are meaningless when an animal or person cooperates with you; weight & strength are only important when you need to forcibly restrain the dog, or try to force his cooperation or compliance using equipment like leashes, collars, head halters, harnesses. If you are aware of your dog's strength being used against you, know that this is a sign that something is amiss - he's working against you, not with you. Could be that in that particular moment, you simply have to hang on, restrain, manage, do what has to be done to keep all safe. But once the moment has passed, carefully evaluate what happened, why, and what needs to be done in the future._

I like this Suzanne Clothier article, says it all really

How Much Does Your Dog&#039;s Cooperation Weigh? | Suzanne Clothier


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If people are checking their dogs and it's a negative reaction, I'd suggest it's not being used in the right way. It is possible to check your dog, and still have them smiling. * I use it when I change direction, or stop,* it is simply a small check, if the check doesn't happen, then they know they've got it right and they've *won*.
> 
> I also (as I said) use footwork, so tell the dog what sort of turn is coming up, and encourage them to beat me at getting their heelwork right.
> 
> I don't walk my dogs for long straight lines, checking them because they are interested in sniffing, or because there's a strange dog/cat etc. I'm not interested in yanking my dogs off their feet all the time because they're pulling me all over the place. I use it during training, so that I don't have to check them the rest of the time.


This sounds more like silkyleash techniques than checking or jerking to me.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Oh back to that one again. I don't think not being jerked on a lead has anything to do with 'getting away with murder'


If a dog is walking to heel nicely, it isn't pulling, there is zero pressure around the neck? why the need for a harness?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> If a dog is walking to heel nicely, it isn't pulling, there is zero pressure around the neck? why the need for a harness?


Because no dog will walk nicely to heal 100% of the time perhaps? And that 1% of the time it doesn't you don't want to injure its neck. Not rocket science.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Why do you have to jerk and say no unless your dog has not been training appropriately to ignore those objects? It took me a week of the 'watch me' command to have Kes sit on the pavement and stay while distractions went past...


Erm! excuse me! but can you define the work 'jerk' for me I said I flick my wrist ! (check) which is me attracting my dogs attention!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> This sounds more like silkyleash techniques than checking or jerking to me.


I suppose that's the difference in what people will call checking or jerking, or even yanking their dogs. I have no qualms about saying I check my dogs, I also use a grumbly 'Oi you bl**dy thing' voice.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Because no dog will walk nicely to heal 100% of the time perhaps? And that 1% of the time it doesn't you don't want to injure its neck. Not rocket science.


I highly doubt a dog that walks to heel 99% of the time will do a lunge big enough to injure it's neck for that 1%


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> Erm! excuse me! but can you define the work 'jerk' for me I said I flick my wrist ! (check) which is me attracting my dogs attention!


But why do you have to say or do anything unless your dogs are not trained to avoid that stimulus? Is a rewording of my question. Kes used to chase bikes. She no longer chases bikes ergo I do not need to say NO and jerk my lead to get her not to chase a bike....


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> I highly doubt a dog that walks to heel 99% of the time will do a lunge big enough to injure it's neck for that 1%


Well I shall leave that up to you to mull over seeing as you seem to know everything there is. I did too once.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Well I shall leave that up to you to mull over seeing as you seem to know everything there is. I did too once.


There really is no need for an attitude like that. Seriously.

So it is okay to smoke around a dog, with it inhaling second hand smoke, but not okay to give a jerk... makes sense...


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I suppose that's the difference in what people will call checking or jerking, or even yanking their dogs. I have no qualms about saying I check my dogs, I also use a grumbly 'Oi you bl**dy thing' voice.


Does bring up the question about silky leash though, if the dog is responding to tension (or for sake of argument a very gentle check) is that just a negative reinforcer? Hmmm!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> There really is no need for an attitude like that. Seriously.
> 
> So it is okay to smoke around a dog, with it inhaling second hand smoke, but not okay to give a jerk... makes sense...


In my world yes. I smoke. I do not jerk. You however physically jerk your dog (or in fact use things I found quite deplorable) but do not smoke.

Takes all sorts. I am fairly confident however, despite not knowing everything, that your views will change in the forseeable future just like everyones your age.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2013)

Milliepoochie said:


> Reading another thread there seemed to be general concensus that 'jerking' or as I would call it 'checking' as a form of reminder / getting attention isnt acceptable so im curious -


Eh, I don't label it acceptable or unacceptable, I just don't do it because I find it unnecessary and detrimental in the long run.

Unnecessary because I teach my dogs from the start to have a very strong response to attention cues. I don't want my attention cues to have to be physical - as in me touching them or jerking/checking/yanking their lead, becasue a) I may not always be in touching range, and b) they may not always be on lead.

Detrimental for a lot of reasons. The neck is a delicate structure, I don't care how much muscle fur or fat the dog has. I've seen far too many collapsed tracheas, esophageal and breathing problems surfacing in old age (from a lifetime of minor checks perhaps?), wobblers, thyroid issues, etc. etc. for me to ever be comfortable manhandling a dog around the neck again. 
Yes, I did originally learn to train using a check chain as intended.

But even without the potential physical reprecussions, using the collar and leash as a "reminder" is just counter productive to my goal of clear communication with my dogs. Dogs are not stupid, they know when you have a hold of the leash and when they don't.

If someone wants a dog who behaves only when on a leash, then check away, but I want a dog who is just as reliable off leash as on.

If it takes a "check" to get your dog's attention when they're 4 feet away from you attached to a leash, what the heck are you going to do to get their attention when they're 30 feet away? 
Conversely, if you're 30 feet away and your voice works to get the dog's attention, why would your voice NOT work if the dog is 4 feet away on leash?

It's not that I think it's unnacceptable or cruel (though it can be), I just don't find it an effective way to train.



DT said:


> And to be honest do wonder how you can train a dog wiithout checking them!
> I honestly do.


There is a lot of cool stuff out there that people are doing that I wonder how they trained the dog. That's what's so awesome about forums and seminars and books - you get to learn how others do stuff! 


SLB said:


> You can only take positive training so far before the dog realises that they are rewarded for the good things and nothing happens for the bad.


Positive doesn't mean permissive 
PR training is consequential training. There are always consequences whether we intend them or not. I prefer to be purposeful about consequences.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> .
> 
> Positive doesn't mean permissive
> PR training is consequential training. There are always consequences whether we intend them or not. I prefer to be purposeful about consequences.


This.

could not agree more.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> Does bring up the question about silky leash though, if the dog is responding to tension (or for sake of argument a very gentle check) is that just a negative reinforcer? Hmmm!


I don't even think about the terms of negative/positive reinforcer. I have four dogs, with one visitor at the moment. They're all pretty good, not perfect, but the ones I've spent time training to walk to heel, do so nicely when I ask. If I take them out and train them, they enjoy it, despite me checking them, and using the grumbly voice, along with footwork, nice voice, and even treats. I have four bitches that live alongside each other happily, and are so well balanced they have accepted strange dogs into their household on numerous occasions, including the latest addition, Mr Jack.

My dogs are happy, if they were unhappy, then I know I'd be doing something wrong. All this modern talk about Pos plus etc is a load of rubbish as far as I'm concerned. Dog happy, you're doing it right, dog not happy, you're not doing it right and need to think about it a bit more


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Can I ask to those who do check (and emphasising Sarah's point) - if checking worked, why would you need to do it often? [/QUOTE
> .
> 
> I still 'check' when required because whilst Millie is amazing she isnt a robot- A bit of pressure of the lead reminds her 'this is a to heel walk'. She doesnt pull much but its principle she knows not to and doesnt get away with it
> ...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Perfect heelwork does not come about by jerking, yanking or any other name you want to call it.
> 
> If you look at top competitors doing perfect heelwork they do not even use a lead.
> 
> ...


But are not dog trainers allowed different techniques? and could one thing work for one dog but not another? would a person not using techniques that were not 'written or advised by another ' not be sucessful in say fieldwork?


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> It sounds like your harnesses were badly designed if they split his armpits...as for slip leads I don't agree with using them on a dog who will lunge, it's no different to use a choke chain.


Nope, both his harnesses where very good quality. I made sure they where because of the problems he has, he just worked himself up into such a frenzy and I have no idea how he done it.

He is walked on a slip lead because he slips out of harnesses and collars, I don't use it so I can correct him and choke him or whatever it's purely to reduce the risk of him killing another dog. If the collar comes off the muzzle does too.

I have used all sorts of kit on him and I'm getting the best results with the slip lead as he no longer gets to a lunging state. What else would you suggest?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Oscar gets a jerk each and everytime he goes out on a walk. It's me! 

Seriously, neither Zara or Oscar are either jerked or checked. 

If they get up too much of a pace I usually draw back on the leash, a bit like gently applying a brake, say 'ah' 'ah' and they soon get the message.

Likewise, if they're getting a little headstrong and adopt their cocky strut, in say a strange environment with new people I apply the same braking method with the word 'Steady', spoken calmly 'Steadeeeeee' 

Oscar's always more compliant than Zara and it's best that Zara's brought to a complete halt, then calming her down before continuing on.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't even think about the terms of negative/positive reinforcer. I have four dogs, with one visitor at the moment. They're all pretty good, not perfect, but the ones I've spent time training to walk to heel, do so nicely when I ask. If I take them out and train them, they enjoy it, despite me checking them, and using the grumbly voice, along with footwork, nice voice, and even treats. I have four bitches that live alongside each other happily, and are so well balanced they have accepted strange dogs into their household on numerous occasions, including the latest addition, Mr Jack.
> 
> My dogs are happy, if they were unhappy, then I know I'd be doing something wrong. All this modern talk about Pos plus etc is a load of rubbish as far as I'm concerned. Dog happy, you're doing it right, dog not happy, you're not doing it right and need to think about it a bit more


I've seen some happy dogs who was treated quite badly but their thresholds were obviously higher than others, so on that basis alone I don't think it's a case 'whatever works so long as they're happy', I think in terms of 'what is more likely to make her happy in the long term'. I was just musing to myself really about the reinforcing question, I'm sure I do things with Kes that if I thought about it on an academic level were not 'to my ethics', but then I'm just not that skilled or academic myself. :lol:


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> In my world yes. I smoke. I do not jerk. You however physically jerk your dog (or in fact use things I found quite deplorable) but do not smoke.
> 
> Takes all sorts. I am fairly confident however, despite not knowing everything, that your views will change in the forseeable future just like everyones your age.


Okay fair enough. I happen to find smoking very deplorable so it works both ways.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Oscar gets a jerk each and everytime he goes out on a walk. It's me!
> 
> Seriously, neither Zara or Oscar are either jerked or checked.
> 
> ...


You must be the ultimate pack leader Zaros!!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> Okay fair enough. I happen to find smoking very deplorable so it works both ways.


Yes, I used to find lots of things deplorable too. And I'm sure I'll find things deplorable in 5 years time that I don't now, which is why I'm happy to ignore a strangers likes and dislikes on the internet


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> But why do you have to say or do anything unless your dogs are not trained to avoid that stimulus? Is a rewording of my question. Kes used to chase bikes. She no longer chases bikes ergo I do not need to say NO and jerk my lead to get her not to chase a bike....


they don't chase bikes, or joggers, they don't even look at them, its just a natural instinct that I do and have I guess always done. If they are off lead and I see one I will shout them, not I guess that I think they are going to chase them but to attract their attention.


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## blossom21 (Oct 29, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> have you popped your dogs' collar around yoru neck and tried it?


No I havent actually,why should I??? . As I indicated I was shown by the dog trainer how to do it correctly,would never deliberately hurt my boy.Each to their own methods


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

sezeelson said:


> Nope, both his harnesses where very good quality. I made sure they where because of the problems he has, he just worked himself up into such a frenzy and I have no idea how he done it.
> 
> He is walked on a slip lead because he slips out of harnesses and collars, I don't use it so I can correct him and choke him or whatever it's purely to reduce the risk of him killing another dog. If the collar comes off the muzzle does too.
> 
> I have used all sorts of kit on him and I'm getting the best results with the slip lead as he no longer gets to a lunging state. What else would you suggest?


If he no longer gets a lunging state then fair enough, if he had lunged it probably left such an impact on him to stop him doing that. It doesn't mean that his desire to lunge has changed or been modified though, perhaps just suppressed, but you're the only one to judge that. If harnesses weren't to your liking then fair enough, there is no one size fits all.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> I've seen some happy dogs who was treated quite badly but their thresholds were obviously higher than others, so on that basis alone I don't think it's a case 'whatever works so long as they're happy', I think in terms of 'what is more likely to make her happy in the long term'. I was just musing to myself really about the reinforcing question, I'm sure I do things with Kes that if I thought about it on an academic level were not 'to my ethics', but then I'm just not that skilled or academic myself. :lol:


I think you're missing the point, none of my dogs are unhappy at being checked, maybe it's the way I do it, perhaps I'm using some pos plus bizarre training method without actually knowing it, but in my books, I check my dogs. In actual fact, if I start checking Tau, she suddenly ups her game and enjoys it more, because she likes training. Indie couldn't care less, Rhuna is similar to Tau, just a bit younger, Zasa is a work in progress and I don't ask for heel work unless I have time to encourage her to do it right, at her point she's not going to understand the way I encourage Tau and Rhuna to *compete* to get heelwork right with me.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

blossom21 said:


> No I havent actually,why should I??? . As I indicated I was shown by the dog trainer how to do it correctly,would never deliberately hurt my boy.Each to their own methods


There are many trainers out there, being a trainer in itself doesn't make you 'right', I'd trust many non-trainers over many 'trainers' I've met any day of the week when it comes to actual training. The fact that the effective use of popping a choke chain is not a 'gentle tug' in order for it to be effective is enough to tell me what the reason behind jerking is. Like Sarah said, a pop has to be forceful enough to stop a behaviour, a series of gentle tugs all the time is not training imo, nor does it produce long term results as it's not severe enough to from a training standpoint. If you use it for other purposes such as SL changing direction etc. then it has another use and might work. However, having looked at post-mortem studies of dogs who had been jerked or used choke chains (inappropriately) I wouldn't be comfortable compromising my dogs neck like that, a series of what appear to be gentle tugs can have a degenerative effect on your dogs neck, hence why one pop should be the one that works with that technique.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think you're missing the point, none of my dogs are unhappy at being checked, maybe it's the way I do it, perhaps I'm using some pos plus bizarre training method without actually knowing it, but in my books, I check my dogs. In actual fact, if I start checking Tau, she suddenly ups her game and enjoys it more, because she likes training. Indie couldn't care less, Rhuna is similar to Tau, just a bit younger, Zasa is a work in progress and I don't ask for heel work unless I have time to encourage her to do it right, at her point she's not going to understand the way I encourage Tau and Rhuna to *compete* to get heelwork right with me.


I don't think too many dogs are unhappy with checks per se, I was ruminating on the reason why a jerk would work i.e. dog responds to stop you tugging, hence negative reinforcement. I just found it interesting that positive people are on the silky leash bandwagon nowadays when it appears to be rooted in a similar way from where I'm sat. Perhaps your dogs, as it seems to me, respond to the gentle pressure rather than a check basically, is what I'm inarticulately trying to say.


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## blossom21 (Oct 29, 2012)

I have never and would never use a choke on my boy,actually when he was playing up at classes one day the trainer went to put one on him and I point flat refused to let him do so.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> There are many trainers out there, being a trainer in itself doesn't make you 'right', I'd trust many non-trainers over many 'trainers' I've met any day of the week when it comes to actual training. The fact that the effective use of popping a choke chain is not a 'gentle tug' in order for it to be effective is enough to tell me what the reason behind jerking is. Like Sarah said, a pop has to be forceful enough to stop a behaviour, a series of gentle tugs all the time is not training imo, nor does it produce long term results as it's not severe enough to from a training standpoint. If you use it for other purposes such as SL changing direction etc. then it has another use and might work. However, having looked at post-mortem studies of dogs who had been jerked or used choke chains (inappropriately) I wouldn't be comfortable compromising my dogs neck like that, a series of what appear to be gentle tugs can have a degenerative effect on your dogs neck, hence why one pop should be the one that works with that technique.


I think any contraction can cause damage if not used correctly . Mine hates a halti, I once read that they can cause damage if the dog holds its head sideways to try and avoid the pressure


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

blossom21 said:


> I have never and would never use a choke on my boy,actually when he was playing up at classes one day the trainer went to put one on him and I point flat refused to let him do so.


There are some shops that even refuse to sell the choke chains these days!
Good job too.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Yep, I use checking with my 3, either in a collar or harness. I use it to get their attention prior to a command, like anything it can be misused but it works for us. I dont believe anyone can walk a dog on lead from pup to adult hood without doing it!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> I think any contraction can cause damage if not used correctly . Mine hates a halti, I once read that they can cause damage if the dog holds its head sideways to try and avoid the pressure


I can't stand halti's :lol:


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2013)

dandogman said:


> Yes I do.
> 
> I am very picky, and like to have perfect heel work.


What is your criteria for "perfect" and have you achieved it? Is your dog's off leash heeling as good as her on-leash heeling?
I'm not trying to be flippant, I'm genuinely curious if you're happy with your heelwork.



smokeybear said:


> If you look at top competitors doing perfect heelwork they do not even use a lead.


Right, this. And among a lot of distractions too...



smokeybear said:


> Suzanne Clothier wisely said:
> 
> _Cooperation weighs nothing Weight & strength are meaningless when an animal or person cooperates with you; weight & strength are only important when you need to forcibly restrain the dog, or try to force his cooperation or compliance using equipment like leashes, collars, head halters, harnesses. If you are aware of your dog's strength being used against you, know that this is a sign that something is amiss - he's working against you, not with you. Could be that in that particular moment, you simply have to hang on, restrain, manage, do what has to be done to keep all safe. But once the moment has passed, carefully evaluate what happened, why, and what needs to be done in the future._
> 
> ...


I almost posted this article too! 
As a giant breed owner this one is near and dear to my heart. My children can walk the danes with no issues, in fact this past Christmas they did exactly that in a busy town parade


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

blossom21 said:


> No I havent actually,why should I??? . As I indicated I was shown by the dog trainer how to do it correctly,would never deliberately hurt my boy.Each to their own methods


The reason i asked was because i have and hhad a friend "check" me the way she was taught " properly" in class. lets jsut say It confirmed i won't be doing it to my dog.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> If he no longer gets a lunging state then fair enough, if he had lunged it probably left such an impact on him to stop him doing that. It doesn't mean that his desire to lunge has changed or been modified though, perhaps just suppressed, but you're the only one to judge that. If harnesses weren't to your liking then fair enough, there is no one size fits all.


No definitely not! But I used lots of hot dogs to increase his threshold of how close a dog could get. I used to sit in the corner of the park and just let him watch other playing etc. he has shown avoidance once or twice where I have just walked away rather then continue training or forcing him to face the dog. I'm all for positive reinforcement but the odd check has really helped as he has been allowed to show the bad behaviour for over 4 years now and is used to walking as if there is nothing on the other end of the leash!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I can't stand halti's :lol:


bingo! we agree neither can I


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> The reason i asked was because i have and hhad a friend "check" me the way she was taught " properly" in class. lets jsut say It confirmed i won't be doing it to my dog.


Yep!

I wouldn't like to be yanked via my neck so I can't imagine my dog would like to, either.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

sezeelson said:


> No definitely not! But I used lots of hot dogs to increase his threshold of how close a dog could get. I used to sit in the corner of the park and just let him watch other playing etc. he has shown avoidance once or twice where I have just walked away rather then continue training or forcing him to face the dog. I'm all for positive reinforcement but the odd check has really helped as he has been allowed to show the bad behaviour for over 4 years now and is used to walking as if there is nothing on the other end of the leash!


That's heart warming to hear, especially seeing as there are no checks necessary at all now after a combined approach. Well done


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2013)

I do not check McKenzie. I have a stubborn yet sensitive terrier and choose my training techniques carefully because if I upset her, I've lost her attention and willingness. I know from past attempts at training that any 'force' makes her shut down.

Voice commands are enough for Kenzie. We have a good little system going so I never have a need to check her.

Perhaps if I owned a different dog I would have a different view, but in my current situation, checking is neither helpful nor required.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> That's heart warming to hear, especially seeing as there are no checks necessary at all now after a combined approach. Well done


Exactly! If you have been checking for years of walking its obviously not doing what you want it to. I like to give myself a 4 week rule where if there is no change at all (whether I'm trying to teach them something, change the way they behave or stop something) then it obviously isn't working and I need to rethink my methods!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

sezeelson said:


> Exactly! If you have been checking for years of walking its obviously not doing what you want it to. I like to give myself a 4 week rule where if there is no change at all (whether I'm trying to teach them something, change the way they behave or stop something) then it obviously isn't working and I need to rethink my methods!


Very good method  I get bored way before week 4 though :lol: Perhaps I should get tested for ADHD.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> The reason i asked was because i have and hhad a friend "check" me the way she was taught " properly" in class. lets jsut say It confirmed i won't be doing it to my dog.


Hurts doesn't it? My loving brother did it to me once 

People say it doesn't hurt but I've heard many a dog yelp when "checked", my own included when I trained that way, so I'm not convinced.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Thinking about it I sort of do I suppose ....

With Toby I will give a slight pull (NOT a jerk!) on his lead & say 'Oi' on the odd occasion he will go to pull - he wears a harness btw so no pressure on his neck. But this will probably be a couple of times a month if that. 

Roxy I don't as it has no effect on her whatsoever when we are walking. She can still be frustrating with her pulling when she gets so excited no matter how much LLW we practise but I will simply stop rather than continue with her.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I don't check/jerk in the way I've seen training done on the TV - however Lilly gets a gentle 'lead correction' to get her focussed back on me, my voice isn't enough to break her concentration.
But it's not a sharp and hard movement more a gentle wobble


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## LauraJane9 (Oct 3, 2012)

dandogman said:


> Probably why a lot of small dogs are so poorly behaved. They can get away with murder...


My dogs are beautifully behaved and I don't need to 'check' them. It's very ignorant to say a lot of small dogs are poorly behaved.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2013)

For all of you who gently tug on the leash to get the dog's attention back on you, what do you do to get the dog's attention if they're not on a leash?


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## Beth17 (Jun 5, 2012)

ouesi said:


> For all of you who gently tug on the leash to get the dog's attention back on you, what do you do to get the dog's attention if they're not on a leash?


With sam I jump up and down waving my arms and hope he spots me :lol:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> For all of you who gently tug on the leash to get the dog's attention back on you, what do you do to get the dog's attention if they're not on a leash?


Call 'here' or 'wait' neither of which would apply on a lead as I just want Toby to slow down which he does. In my case this works with one of my dogs but not the other.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Call 'here' or 'wait' neither of which would apply on a lead as I just want Toby to slow down which he does. In my case this works with one of my dogs but not the other.


They normally listen off lead


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

LauraJane9 said:


> My dogs are beautifully behaved and I don't need to 'check' them. It's very ignorant to say a lot of small dogs are poorly behaved.


A lot are... that is the *truth*... in my experience a small number of small dogs are well behaved.

Obviously what i have said wasn't clear... I didn't mean you have to check a dog to make it behaved, I meant that a lot of small dogs do don't behave as they have no boundaries and are allowed to do whatever they wish, because they can get away with it because of their size.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> A lot are... that is the *truth*... in my experience a small number of small dogs are well behaved.
> 
> Obviously what i have said wasn't clear... I didn't mean you have to check a dog to make it behaved, I meant that a lot of small dogs do don't behave as they have no boundaries and are allowed to do whatever they wish, because they can get away with it because of their size.


All that proves is that from your anecdotal experience you live around dog owners who do not train their dogs properly. Nothing more.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> All that proves is that from your anecdotal experience you live around dog owners who do not train their dogs properly. Nothing more.


Can't deny that they don't train them propely... I am not blaming the dogs, don't get me wrong.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I would never deliberately pull on a lead attached to a dog's collar, and wouldn't walk my dogs on a choke chain or a slip lead. I have tried playing with the lead a little like you do with a horse's rein (so done quite gently) while they were on harnesses and it made sod all difference so I didn't bother again. :lol:

I have taught a "touch" command (nose to back of hand) and can usually get them focussed back on me by sticking a flat hand in the vicinity of their faces and saying "touch". Or I rest the back of my fingers on the top of their head and speak to them in a happy voice if they are really locked onto something. Or I just wait it out.

Whether it works or not it is completely undesirable to me to use force in training and I won't do it even if I am never skillful enough at my chosen form of training to have dogs that walk perfectly on lead at all times.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

dandogman said:


> A lot are... that is the *truth*... in my experience a small number of small dogs are well behaved.
> 
> Obviously what i have said wasn't clear... I didn't mean you have to check a dog to make it behaved, I meant that a lot of small dogs do don't behave as they have no boundaries and are allowed to do whatever they wish, because they can get away with it because of their size.


And a lot of big dogs are also poorly behaved


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

DT said:


> They normally listen off lead


LOL, again one does & one .......


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

*







*


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

*I have come to the conclusion!
That ALL pet forum members have perfect dogs!
And that you are ALL perfect trainers!
Who THINK that you way is the only way!
Well Bad news!!!!
it ain't!
So open you minds and enjoy the discussion!
BUT remember what works for YOU might NOT work for ME!

And just to prove we have recall skills piccy above!​*


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

When I first rehomed Dex he was so reactive and so excitable that I literally could not walk him properly - neighbours used to gather to watch Dex take me for a mad sprint around the block 

I tried two trainers and three classes and in every single case, I was told to use a 'check' and by this I do mean an actual jerk on the lead.

Not knowing any better, and being desperate for things to improve, I listened. But it didn't help and I couldn't do it 'properly' either because I simply refused to 'check' with anything like the force that the trainers were using.

Once I switched to a headcollar and double ended lead, things immediately improved and we started enjoying lovely walks far more often.

Now, two years later, Dex walks beautifully on a Gencon All-In-One and I use vocal commands to get his attention and prevent *most* lunges.

I know some folk do not like heacollars but for me, they win hands down and are always preferable to ANY leash 'correction'.

I'm not judging anyone who does things differently - we each do what we feels works for us and our dogs.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2013)

dandogman said:


> A lot are... that is the *truth*... in my experience a small number of small dogs are well behaved.
> 
> Obviously what i have said wasn't clear... I didn't mean you have to check a dog to make it behaved, I meant that a lot of small dogs do don't behave as they have no boundaries and are allowed to do whatever they wish, because they can get away with it because of their size.


Your truth is not my truth 
I hang out with trainers and their students. All the small dogs I know by name are nicely behaved. 
Do I know awful small dogs? Yep. Also know some pretty nasty big dogs too. Experience is subjective.



DT said:


> *I have come to the conclusion!
> That ALL pet forum members have perfect dogs!
> And that you are ALL perfect trainers!
> Who THINK that you way is the only way!
> ...


Not sure where you got the idea that one way is the only way?
And yes, thank you, I do have perfect dogs. Perfect for ME and my needs, which I recognize are not going to be the same for everyone. ::shrug::

I asked about how you get your dog's attention out of genuine curiosity, not judgement. Not sure why you're taking it that way 
My curiosity stems from the fact that if you have such a lovely recall, which it appears you do, why not just use your voice to communicate with your dog? 
And just to clarify, this is a genuinely meant question, no judging here, believe me...


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I have to agree with *dandogman* on the little dogs front. I have encountered many when out with Flynn and it's so dangerous to allow a dog to have a go at a large dog just because it's found to be funny. I love Teebs to bits but I HATE going out for walks with my daughter and him. She hasn't trained him to stop shouting at everyone and anything he see's and I get so annoyed when it's aimed at a large dog, who at any moment could get free and 'eat' him. I agree there are bad big dogs too but with the exception of Flynn have yet to meet one.

I don't think we can compare a dogs neck strength to our own and wouldn't generalise that what hurts our neck will necessarily hurt theirs, having seen the way some willingly pull on a collar I'm pretty sure I couldn't do that. As for 'jerking' 'checking' most of the dogs on this thread so far have been half the size of Flynn, many a hell of a lot smaller and if you had to deal with such a big dog and jerking worked I'm pretty sure you would do it too. The alternative is to be dragged along by it if it also has a very high prey drive. I think my kids would willingly murder him if I got badly hurt by allowing him to just do as he pleases.

I would love some on here to actually know what it's like walking a 63kgs head strong Mal - you just can't compare a 30kgs dog to one bred to pull and double the size. There's being cruel and being far too PC and with a powerful dog the PC goes out the window for safetys sake!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Not sure where you got the idea that one way is the only way?
> And yes, thank you, I do have perfect dogs. Perfect for ME and my needs, which I recognize are not going to be the same for everyone. ::shrug::
> 
> I asked about how you get your dog's attention out of genuine curiosity, not judgement. Not sure why you're taking it that way
> ...


Sorry Ouesi didnt know you had asked me!
But that was my fnal word on the thread,
Some people put their methods across great,
others think their way is the only way!
I was not directing my post at you
Just generally!


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I would love some on here to actually know what it's like walking a 63kgs head strong Mal - you just can't compare a 30kgs dog to one bred to pull and double the size. There's being cruel and being far too PC and with a powerful dog the PC goes out the window for safetys sake!


I used to walk an English Mastiff, a Great Dane, and a cross between the two (not related), and okay so they aren't bred to pull, but both mastiffs were over the weight you mention, the younger was was 10 stone before he was even a year old, and I never felt the need to check him. He was like an oil tanker, slow, but when he got moving, I didn't have much to say about it. So we trained him to walk nicely, using a halti harness in the meantime.




Not a very clear picture, but you can see the harness on him.


This extra photo just because I love them and still miss them. xx


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

My dogs neck is the same size as mine, she is a breed that is maybe more likely to suffer disc problems, I have felt the jerk from an average pet owner adminstering a "check" in the manner they were taught in a class. I strive to train in a force free manner. I choose not to check my dog and prefer to see my lead as insurance not control, I feel I have made an educated informed decision for my dog.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

dandogman said:


> A lot are... that is the *truth*... in my experience a small number of small dogs are well behaved.
> 
> Obviously what i have said wasn't clear... I didn't mean you have to check a dog to make it behaved, I meant that a lot of small dogs do don't behave as they have no boundaries and are allowed to do whatever they wish, because they can get away with it because of their size.


No, it is not the truth. It is your opinion based on your experience.

You can say exactly the same for breeds of ALL sizes. Ridiculous generalizations don't help anyone and frankly, are a bit of an insult.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2013)

dandogman said:


> A lot are... that is the *truth*... in my experience a small number of small dogs are well behaved.
> 
> Obviously what i have said wasn't clear... I didn't mean you have to check a dog to make it behaved, I meant that a lot of small dogs do don't behave as they have no boundaries and are allowed to do whatever they wish, because they can get away with it because of their size.


Just because the small sample of small dogs you know are badly behaved hardly makes it the truth that a large proportion of small dogs on the planet are badly behaved. Most of the small dogs I know are well behaved so I'm going to claim that's the truth.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

McKenzie said:


> Just because the small sample of small dogs you know are badly behaved hardly makes it the truth that a large proportion of small dogs on the planet are badly behaved. Most of the small dogs I know are well behaved so I'm going to claim that's the truth.


Oh a whole most of the small dogs we have met are well behaved, but that said I have found *many* smaller dogs to be more agressive for some reason.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

McKenzie said:


> Just because the small sample of small dogs you know are badly behaved hardly makes it the truth that a large proportion of small dogs on the planet are badly behaved. Most of the small dogs I know are well behaved so I'm going to claim that's the truth.


Most of Sam's attackers have been small dogs..only one was a ridge x. Its pathetic that these owners laugh it off and say he thinks he is as big as yours.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

DT said:


> Oh a whole most of the small dogs we have met are well behaved, but that said I have found *many* smaller dogs to be more agressive for some reason.


Probably because out of control large dogs made them that way.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

It does make me chuckle how if anyone started bashing Staffies, Rottweilers, Akitas, etc., they would be flamed. Yet it seems acceptable for many to jump on the "small dogs are aggressive spawn-of-the-devils" bandwagon? 

Honestly, give it a rest. No type or size of dog is any more aggressive or out of control than the other. I am surprised that even has to be said on a dog lovers forum.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

BoredomBusters said:


> I used to walk an English Mastiff, a Great Dane, and a cross between the two (not related), and okay so they aren't bred to pull, but both mastiffs were over the weight you mention, the younger was was 10 stone before he was even a year old, and I never felt the need to check him. He was like an oil tanker, slow, but when he got moving, I didn't have much to say about it. So we trained him to walk nicely, using a halti harness in the meantime.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think mastiffs can be compared to breeds like Mals and Akitas. These breeds are known for their stubborn and independent nature and are not breeds that love to please ..its like comparing apples and oranges imo.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

labradrk said:


> Probably because out of control large dogs made them that way.


you speaking from experience then


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

labradrk said:


> It does make me chuckle how if anyone started bashing Staffies, Rottweilers, Akitas, etc., they would be flamed.


Haven't ever seen that on this forum. Infact I think I'm the only regularish Akita member on here and have not experienced anyone getting flamed for saying Akitas are aggressive.

Dogs are as aggressive as you let them be. The majority of small breed owners that I've come across let them be or don't allow their small breeds to socialise with big dogs.

One stupid thing I see time and time again is owners of small breeds run the other way or pick up and put their little dog on their shoulder, muttering 'he will have you for lunch'. Maybe I should carry Sam on my back considering its mostly small dogs that have bit him.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Haven't ever seen that on this forum. Infact I think I'm the only regularish Akita member on here and have not experienced anyone getting flamed for saying Akitas are aggressive.


 I dont they are overall! members do tend to stick up for the staffie however, but thats more because of the general view that many have towards staffies.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Haven't ever seen that on this forum. Infact I think I'm the only regularish Akita member on here and have not experienced anyone getting flamed for saying Akitas are aggressive.
> 
> Dogs are as aggressive as you let them be. The majority of small breed owners that I've come across let them be or don't allow their small breeds to socialise with big dogs.


A couple of months before Christmas (while you were AWOL) There was a lot of flaming about Staffies.

For the record my JRT is terrified of unknown big dogs because she was attacked by an off lead muzzled Akita which pinned her to the floor with it's front paws and kept crushing her with its massive head when she was 8 months old. So if she's approached by a big dog she's unsure of she will tell it to get lost and I let her.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

DT said:


> you speaking from experience then


Yes, I am actually. The number of people who see no problem in allowing their boisterous dog to harass and jump on my little dog who is doing everything to avoid them is staggering.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

metaldog said:


> A couple of months before Christmas (while you were AWOL) There was a lot of flaming about Staffies.
> 
> For the record my JRT is terrified of unknown big dogs because she was attacked by an off lead muzzled Akita which pinned her to the floor with it's front paws and kept crushing her with its massive head when she was 8 months old. So if she's approached by a big dog she's unsure of she will tell it to get lost and I let her.


Think that maybe the smaller dogs do make more noise
We holiday with a JRT (thats our two weimys, a JRT, two miniture poodles a standard poodle and a sharpei cross in two caravans)

the JRT is the boss, there's no doubt about that! and the only issue we ever had was over food, someting (food) was dropped near my youngest, she went to pick it up, the JRT flew at her biting her face, Milly (my weim) did retaliate which worried me, but peace was restored (thank god) in nano seconds.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> A couple of months before Christmas (while you were AWOL) There was a lot of flaming about Staffies.
> 
> For the record my JRT is terrified of unknown big dogs because she was attacked by an off lead muzzled Akita which pinned her to the floor with it's front paws and kept crushing her with its massive head when she was 8 months old. So if she's approached by a big dog she's unsure of she will tell it to get lost and I let her.


Yeah so you have reason. I doubt every person that does that has been through what you have.

Also staffs need a break. Too many people..even some on here think they are bred to be dog AND human aggressive which is totally not true.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

labradrk said:


> Yes, I am actually. The number of people who see no problem in allowing their boisterous dog to harass and jump on my little dog who is doing everything to avoid them is staggering.


The number of smaller dogs that go haywire at my bigger dogs staggers me too Nothing serious I add, mostly handbags at dawn, but I walk away with a smug look on my face that my dogs completely ignore them! that is with the exception of if they are walking by our gates that is.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

5rivers79 said:


> Haven't ever seen that on this forum. Infact I think I'm the only regularish Akita member on here and have not experienced anyone getting flamed for saying Akitas are aggressive.
> 
> Dogs are as aggressive as you let them be. The majority of small breed owners that I've come across let them be or don't allow their small breeds to socialise with big dogs.
> 
> One stupid thing I see time and time again is owners of small breeds run the other way or pick up and put their little dog on their shoulder, muttering 'he will have you for lunch'. Maybe I should carry Sam on my back considering its mostly small dogs that have bit him.


I do not allow my small dog to mix with large dogs unless I know them. Why? because for my dogs own safety I not wish to take the chance. All it would take to seriously injure or even kill a small dog is one large dog falling on them, or biting them in the wrong place (even in play). I value my dog more than someone else's dog who "only wants to play" (translation: I have no control over my dog).

For me it is common sense to pick and choose who my dogs play with and who they do not. I would not inflict my large, boisterous Slovak on a small dog for example as she could easily hurt or terrify them.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

labradrk said:


> For me it is common sense to pick and choose who my dogs play with and who they do not. I would not inflict my large, boisterous Slovak on a small dog for example as she could easily hurt or terrify them.


and neither do !


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Yeah so you have reason. I doubt every person that does that has been through what you have.


You'd be surprised just how many little dogs get traumatised by big dogs who 'just want to say hello'. If you search this forum there's hundreds of threads about it


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

DT said:


> The number of smaller dogs that go haywire at my bigger dogs staggers me too Nothing serious I add, mostly handbags at dawn, but I walk away with a smug look on my face that my dogs completely ignore them! that is with the exception of if they are walking by our gates that is.


Are your large dogs intimidated when a small dog runs over barking at them? I'm guessing by the fact that they ignore them, they are not particularly intimidated. Most dogs are savvy enough to know the difference between a dog that is all mouth and no trousers and one that means business.

For comparisons sake, how intimidated do you think my 3kg dog is when an unknown 30kg dog bolts over and tries to leap on her while she is running terrified?


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

Malmum said:


> I would love some on here to actually know what it's like walking a 63kgs head strong Mal - you just can't compare a 30kgs dog to one bred to pull and double the size. There's being cruel and being far too PC and with a powerful dog the PC goes out the window for safetys sake!


Oh... so my example of my young children walking great danes in a loud, crowded, busy Christmas parade doesn't count?



5rivers79 said:


> I don't think mastiffs can be compared to breeds like Mals and Akitas. These breeds are known for their stubborn and independent nature and are not breeds that love to please ..its like comparing apples and oranges imo.


But you do have extensive experience with mastiffs along with your extensive experience with Mals and Akitas to make that comparison?

Listen, I don't care how you or anyone choses to walk their dog. I'm not the person who's going to scowl at you or comment if I see you "checking" your dog to gain some sort of control.

However, I'm also not going to sit here and pretend that a dog's size, breed, temperament, neck size, has anything to do with how the dog can or can't be trained, when I know from personal experience (with more than one dog or one breed) that this is simply not the case.

If you're happy with your dog and your training, AWESOME, rock on, go play and enjoy your dog. 
But not everyone is happy with their dog or their dog's training and I hate for them to think there is no alternative just because some "breed expert" told them PR training doesn't work with that breed. It's simply not true, and it's a really disheartening lie to tell an owner who may be looking for alternatives.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

labradrk said:


> Are your large dogs intimidated when a small dog runs over barking at them? I'm guessing by the fact that they ignore them, they are not particularly intimidated. Most dogs are savvy enough to know the difference between a dog that is all mouth and no trousers and one that means business.
> 
> For comparisons sake, how intimidated do you think my 3kg dog is when an unknown 30kg dog bolts over and tries to leap on her while she is running terrified?


No, I don;t suppose they are, but my eldest dog, has been bitten (nothing serious I add) several times, by smaller leashed dogs, I think maybe 3 or 4 had a go at him, as truckfest one year He has never retaliated once, but to be honest with I found it quiet hairraizing as i thought to myself OMG if he ever went back for one he could seriously hurt them! and that perhaps spoils if for us 'larger; dog walkers to some degree!

how would it feel for a large dog owner to be in a situation where their dog did retaliate? doesnt bear thinking about!


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

If you click on the picture, it shows a clip of our puppy GD (yes, still a pup here) learning some foundations of leash manners. "This way" is an attention getting cue, as is her name "Breez". 
We start this with minimal distractions, here we have added a minor distraction of the other dog underfoot. You can see on a couple occasions she thinks about following him, but with a verbal reminder, she quickly focuses back on her handler. 
Eventually you build up until she can handle any and all distractions.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> You'd be surprised just how many little dogs get traumatised by big dogs who 'just want to say hello'. If you search this forum there's hundreds of threads about it


A guy I used to know had a small terrier that had aggression issues. Owner called it overly playful.

Her and Lucky were playing running after a ball when it suddenly latched on to Lucky's face. Owner tried to free her but his little terrier bit him then went back at Lucky. Lucky managed to shake her off and gave her a nip under her chin in the process.

Now the owner doesn't socialise with us anymore because he says Lucky attacked the terrier and refers to Lucky as 'that dangerous stray'. Had Lucky attacked the terrier I doubt it would have come off with just a scratch under its chin. Everyone in the local area fears Lucky from the rumors that got spread because of that one incident.

From what I've come across in real life (not forums) it seems small dog owners can do no wrong.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Oh... so my example of my young children walking great danes in a loud, crowded, busy Christmas parade doesn't count?
> 
> But you do have extensive experience with mastiffs along with your extensive experience with Mals and Akitas to make that comparison?
> 
> If you're happy with your dog and your training, AWESOME, rock on, go play and enjoy your dog. .


On the contrary, I'm a first time owner..a layman if you will but in the two years of having Sam I've seen enough Akitas to know how determined they can be.

As for mastiffs, there's about 12 around here off the top of my head because ppl around here have moved IP from the hard man staff to the mastiff Lol. Very gentle dogs imo.

Honestly I would love to see you sort Sam's dog aggression out. Its the only annoying thing about him. I know nothing about dog training so have taken Sam to classes..but it becomes disheartening when the trainers themselves are scared of the breed.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

I've given a firm 'check' before, when Dresden was going through his 'jumping and biting my arm when over excited' phase, because all else had failed.

It didn't have any affect. If anything it got him more excited and ramped up, so I don't do it.
Not because Im super opposed to it or anything in the right situations with the right dog, it just doesn't work on my dog.

I'd never use it as a way of teaching a heel or something, only to try and get attention back when he'd gone loopy and nothing else had worked.
And that didn't work either, so I don't bother with it.

And since he's getting over that silliness now and calming down a lot, I have no reason to have to do it on my dog.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Unicorn on here walks her two Danes and she is the same size as me, she doesn't have a problem either unless another dog goes off at them. We are not talking about normal situations we are talking about when or if they react - totally different!

I have said before that cars have stopped, even an ambulance and said how well trained Flynn is because he walks so well BUT there are certain situations when he has played up that he's far from looking well trained. I could get a kid to walk him and film it if he's not distracted but if he were - no way!

I find it amazing when I read about dogs lunging and nearly pulling people over only to find they are 30kgs or so - goodness I wouldn't have that with Kali and she's 50kgs but I can handle her easily, never need to 'jerk' because she is also shorter than Flynn which makes her a whole lot easier. Since he has had a good 18 months of his four odd years in re cooperation and lost loads of social skills around dogs (which is imperative with Mals) he is a whole different kettle of fish.

A jerk on Flynns lead is just that - a jerk - it's not pulling his head off and it depends on the size of the dog if you use it or not. I would not use it on the little dogs, don't have to because they are so small and easy to control but just looking at my avatar you can see why I can't let Flynn 'take the reigns' he's 10+ kgs heavier than me and I am thankful that mostly behaves like a true gent, which I take full credit for as no one else has ever walked him or accompanied me on a walk with him.

Of course any of my Mals can be handled by anyone in a non volatile situation but adding prey/dog to the mix is a different matter, as would the GD in the pic *if* it were dog/prey driven which I'd bet my bottom dollar it isn't as I don't think that breed is. I'm not talking about size only I'm talking about *breed* too! Not a breed recommended to be off lead (Huskys another) because their prey drive is so high, or same sex aggression (although I believe it's any sex aggression) - don't think that can be said for Danes. Two breeds that are poles apart and cannot be compared. I know every experienced Mal owner would say the same, even those who've had the breed in excess of twenty odd years and run working/show kennels!


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

L/C said:


> It's not a risk that I would take with a greyhound or other sighthound. The acceleration and power from their back legs would whip their heads around too fast. I've never used a head collar for that reason and I'm not much of a fan tbh. For me a harness gives me more control as I'm not worrying about them injuring their necks as I would be on a head collar or a flat collar.


Dobes are the same, delicate thin necks. So when we have the head collar on, it is attached to a double ended lead to prevent that very issue.
One end on the head collar, the other attached to his harness, like reigns. So if he ever did lunge, I could hold him back by the harness end, not the head collar end. I rarely have any pressure on the head collar end of the lead when walking, its just there if I do need to have a bit more control.
I'd never use just a head collar on its own.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

5rivers79 said:


> On the contrary, I'm a first time owner..a layman if you will but in the two years of having Sam I've seen enough Akitas to know how determined they can be.


Determined does not equal stubborn. Determined does not equal aggressive. Determined does not equal hard to train. If anything an opinionated, determined dog is EASIER to train than a dog who doesn't care about anything.



5rivers79 said:


> As for mastiffs, there's about 12 around here off the top of my head because ppl around here have moved IP from the hard man staff to the mastiff Lol. Very gentle dogs imo.


By the same token, gentle does not equal easy to train. Gentle does not equal biddable. Gentle does not mean born trained.



5rivers79 said:


> Honestly I would love to see you sort Sam's dog aggression out. Its the only annoying thing about him. I know nothing about dog training so have taken Sam to classes..but it becomes disheartening when the trainers themselves are scared of the breed.


If you're asking my advice, my suggestion to you would be to a) hire a better trainer, and b) stop letting Sam practice dog aggressive behavior - even if in play - with Lucky. It's not fair to him to encourage that behavior with Lucky only to turn around and discourage it with any other dog.
JMHO


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Unicorn on here walks her two Danes and she is the same size as me, she doesn't have a problem either unless another dog goes off at them. We are not talking about normal situations we are talking about when or if they react - totally different!
> 
> I have said before that cars have stopped, even an ambulance and said how well trained Flynn is because he walks so well BUT there are certain situations when he has played up that he's far from looking well trained. I could get a kid to walk him and film it if he's not distracted but if he were - no way!
> 
> ...


Its like saying a banana and cucumber are the same because they are both long Lol.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> On the contrary, I'm a first time owner..a layman if you will but in the two years of having Sam I've seen enough Akitas to know how determined they can be.
> 
> As for mastiffs, there's about 12 around here off the top of my head because ppl around here have moved IP from the hard man staff to the mastiff Lol. Very gentle dogs imo.
> 
> Honestly I would love to see you sort Sam's dog aggression out. Its the only annoying thing about him. I know nothing about dog training so have taken Sam to classes..but it becomes disheartening when the trainers themselves are scared of the breed.


I do wish people wouldn't generalise breeds five. There's a whole forum dedicated to Mals (Icebaymals) plus a US one (Wildpaws) and their raising and training is totally different to dogs I've had in the past. I believe what they say on those forums are true 'Until you have one yourself you don't know what they're like' and that's not me speaking that's very experienced people/trainers speaking! Much the same as the Mal groups on facebook the World over! I would think Akita's are much the same but I wouldn't be brave enough to own one of those, lol! Better the Devil you know in my case - coward eh? 

These guys have been a BIG wake up call for all of us here and even after eight years we are still learning about them!


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Determined does not equal stubborn. Determined does not equal aggressive. Determined does not equal hard to train. If anything an opinionated, determined dog is EASIER to train than a dog who doesn't care about anything.
> 
> By the same token, gentle does not equal easy to train. Gentle does not equal biddable. Gentle does not mean born trained.
> 
> ...


Maybe I should have said stubborn not determined.

Sam is not rough with Lucky. I could put up a video diary showing that Lucky always instigates the rough play by body slamming Sam and chasing him.

When Sam looks at another dog from staffy size up he will go mad..lunging and wooing. He doesn't do that to Lucky.

I've been to 3 local trainers who can't IMO help Sam some don't trust the breed and some just look terrified. In fact Sam always behaves in class.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I do wish people wouldn't generalise breeds five. There's a whole forum dedicated to Mals (Icebaymals) plus a US one (Wildpaws) and their raising and training is totally different to dogs I've had in the past. I believe what they say on those forums are true 'Until you have one yourself you don't know what they're like' and that's not me speaking that's very experienced people/trainers speaking! Much the same as the Mal groups on facebook the World over! I would think Akita's are much the same but I wouldn't be brave enough to own one of those, lol! Better the Devil you know in my case - coward eh?
> 
> These guys have been a BIG wake up call for all of us here and even after eight years we are still learning about them!


I have to say, I feel the same about dobes. Dresden is unlike any dog I've ever worked with or been around. I honestly believe they're a breed you have to experience to really get them. When you haven't......you really can't imagine!
Dobe people used to tell me this, that until I owned one and raised one, I would have no idea, and I used to dismiss this. I mean, how different to any other breed can they be?! I was wrong!

I suppose we all think our breeds are totally unique. But I've worked with lots of dogs, mainly in rescue, tons of different breeds, and never a dog like Dresden. His attitude, his 'aggression' for life (and I use aggression to mean tenacity, drive, a 'head first' approach to everything, determination, not viciousness!) how tough this dog can be (physically and mentally) one minute and a complete baby the next, how he thinks, its all very different to any dog I've worked with before.

I learn daily, and when Dresden is 10 and old and grey, I'll still have loads to learn.
I've had rats 16 years, and still learn new things regularly. Every time I think I know it all, something pops up to surprise me!


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I do wish people wouldn't generalise breeds five. There's a whole forum dedicated to Mals (Icebaymals) plus a US one (Wildpaws) and their raising and training is totally different to dogs I've had in the past. I believe what they say on those forums are true 'Until you have one yourself you don't know what they're like' and that's not me speaking that's very experienced people/trainers speaking! Much the same as the Mal groups on facebook the World over! I would think Akita's are much the same but I wouldn't be brave enough to own one of those, lol! Better the Devil you know in my case - coward eh?
> 
> These guys have been a BIG wake up call for all of us here and even after eight years we are still learning about them!


I'm still in awe when I see pics of Flynn. Sam is 41kg and people say he is massive. Flynn is a giant and would make Sam look a dwarf. Lol They would look amazing playing together but I think they would just hate each other Lol.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

Malmum said:


> Of course any of my Mals can be handled by anyone in a non volatile situation but adding prey/dog to the mix is a different matter, as would the GD in the pic *if* it were dog/prey driven which *I'd bet my bottom dollar it isn't as I don't think that breed is.* I'm not talking about size only I'm talking about *breed* too! Not a breed recommended to be off lead (Huskys another) because their prey drive is so high, or same sex aggression (although I believe it's any sex aggression) - don't think that can be said for Danes. Two breeds that are poles apart and cannot be compared. I know every experienced Mal owner would say the same, even those who've had the breed in excess of twenty odd years and run working/show kennels!


You just lost your bottom dollar.
"It" BTW is a she.
"It" is very prey driven and agile and quick enough to catch and kill rabbits.
Danes are actually known to be quite prey driven. Definitely more prey driven than the malamute I used to have.

But I don't think anything I have to say matters to you honestly.

You, like many owners as you can see right on this thread, are too invested in your dog's uniqueness. No one has ever owned a dog as big, as strong, as determined, as aggressive, as reactive, as stubborn, as difficult, as special. Therefore no one will ever know what it is like or can ever possibly know how to deal with the unique dog you have that has never existed before. Sometimes it's breed uniqueness, but still the same idea.

In psychology the term "terminal uniqueness" addresses those who think what has worked for others will never work for them because their situation is so special and unique that nothing anyone else has experienced applies. It's terminal because this thinking keeps people in the exact same rut forever.

Or more succinctly put, Chinese proverb says "those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those doing it."


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

DT said:


> No, I don;t suppose they are, but my eldest dog, has been bitten (nothing serious I add) several times, by smaller leashed dogs, I think maybe 3 or 4 had a go at him, as truckfest one year He has never retaliated once, but to be honest with I found it quiet hairraizing as i thought to myself OMG if he ever went back for one he could seriously hurt them! and that perhaps spoils if for us 'larger; dog walkers to some degree!


The other side of the coin - my 5kg dog is regularly, sometimes daily, charged at and bounced all over by large dogs, terrifying her out of her wits. She doesn't retaliate either, but even if she did it would have little impact. She simply tucks her tail between her legs, pins her ears back, makes the most pitiful noise and goes around and around my legs trying to avoid them while I try to grab her and pick her up because the owner is doing absolutely nothing to stop their dog from 'playing' with mine. Spoils my walk too.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Ok the comment about little dogs being ill trained really gets my goat.

Heres Sophie in training in a four minute down, without be holding the leash. She was in a class of four.










I can take Sophie pretty much anywhere. Bus rides, bus terminal, a busy city centre and downtown, swimming, hiking, into stores, garden centers, hotels, car rides etc and she is well trained thank very much!

If you throw in a obnoxious over friendly in your face dog that wont give Sophie space and leave her alone, yeh shell give it a talking to! and even still she tries to get the first jab in at times, which I just turn and we leave the situations. Other times she is fine and we will do a calm intro.

You cant tar everyone small dog with the same brush

I havent tarred german sheps or labs just cause the one that attacked Sophie was a mix of two!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Shadowrat said:


> I have to say, I feel the same about dobes. Dresden is unlike any dog I've ever worked with or been around. I honestly believe they're a breed you have to experience to really get them. When you haven't......you really can't imagine!
> Dobe people used to tell me this, that until I owned one and raised one, I would have no idea, and I used to dismiss this. I mean, how different to any other breed can they be?! I was wrong!
> 
> I suppose we all think our breeds are totally unique. But I've worked with lots of dogs, mainly in rescue, tons of different breeds, and never a dog like Dresden. His attitude, his 'aggression' for life (and I use aggression to mean tenacity, drive, a 'head first' approach to everything, determination, not viciousness!) how tough this dog can be (physically and mentally) one minute and a complete baby the next, how he thinks, its all very different to any dog I've worked with before.
> ...


That's why so many Mals end up in rescue, people buy them thinking they look adorable when they can be right g!ts! I'm no spring chicken, mid fifties and I have owned dogs all my life, parents did too when I was growing up, among which have been a Dane, GSD, many Staffs, standard Poodle and JRT and like you I thought 'all hype they're dogs for goodness sake' ha ha  that joke was on me. I have never had dogs that have had fights with their fellow house mates, so food orientated, that howl in unison at the slightest hint of a siren and sound like a pack of wolves, lol , that are so headstrong, stubborn when they want to be, prey drive like you wouldn't believe and facially expressive that you can read them like books which has saved many a rumpus in the past, although not all.  Having said that I think the challenges for the dog you have are worth it in the end, as I reckon you feel too. :yesnod:



5rivers79 said:


> I'm still in awe when I see pics of Flynn. Sam is 41kg and people say he is massive. Flynn is a giant and would make Sam look a dwarf. Lol They would look amazing playing together but I think they would just hate each other Lol.


That would be a right old barney five, lol! 

ETA - I don't think anyone is slating ALL little dogs and as I have two who are gems and one who's gobby I think it's a fair comment since I have both large and small and have badly behaved in both at times! Teebs just hasn't been trained as I have already said. Why do people always take humbridge at just a passing comment? Is there nothing folk can say on here without someone taking offence?


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Having said that I think the challenges for the dog you have are worth it in the end, as I reckon you feel too. :yesnod:


Oh yes, definitely. He's not an easy dog, many would have given up on him, but just seeing the daily progress he's making on certain things, and seeing glimpses of the adult dog he will become eventually is really worth all the months and months of stress, training, embarrassment, confusion and drama!
But no, I absolutely believe breed plays a large part in a dog's behaviour. Its not the be all and end all, but I think its silly to ignore that they're all different.
A dobe is nothing like a CKCS, a mal is nothing like a pug, an akita is nothing like a bichon, and so on.

Genetics too. I recently spoke to the owner of Dresden's sister, and she said her girl is exactly the same as Dresden, to a T. She could have been describing Dresden. And she's had dobes before, so probably didn't make the 'newbie' mistakes I made, but still her dog is exactly the same as Dresden, right down to the age she began doing certain things, the habits and quirks she has, even the 'problem' behaviours they've been working on. 
She said she didn't have the same experiences with her other dobe, who was from a different litter.

Someone once told me the naughtiest/most difficult puppies made the best adult dogs. I try to cling to that little idea


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Why do people always take humbridge at just a passing comment? Is there nothing folk can say on here without someone taking offence?


For me its because you see a staffy/rotti/mals/huskys whatever large breed is brought up people are told to not to judge the breed on its breed

BUT you throw in a small dogs comment and many say they are nasty, they nip, uncontrollable etc and no one says not to judge them by the cover etc!

I judge the person behind the dog.

If I didnt Id say all big dogs are ill trained as I have the majority of issues with big dogs and only one issue with one small dog but I dont because I judge the person and their ability to handle their dog regardless of size.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

that was not a you at you malmum just who ever in general throws those comments around  its late and Im trying to write a paper on Bacteria very very interesting  Not!! lol


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

ouesi said:


> You just lost your bottom dollar.
> "It" BTW is a she.
> "It" is very prey driven and agile and quick enough to catch and kill rabbits.
> Danes are actually known to be quite prey driven. Definitely more prey driven than the malamute I used to have.
> ...


I don't think anyone thinks their dog is too special that it won't learn. I'm sure Malmum would love it if Flynn wasn't dog reactive as would I with Sam. I've not come across one expert who can sort it so far. Maybe experts over there are better than the ones I've met.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

5rivers79 said:


> I don't think anyone thinks their dog is too special that it won't learn. I'm sure Malmum would love it if Flynn wasn't dog reactive as would I with Sam. I've not come across one expert who can sort it so far. Maybe experts over there are better than the ones I've met.


How many experts have you consulted?
I sounded like in your previous post that you've only met with one trainer for Sam.

How do you determine if someone is an expert?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

ouesi said:


> How many experts have you consulted?
> I sounded like in your previous post that you've only met with one trainer for Sam.
> 
> How do you determine if someone is an expert?


No, in my previous post i stated iv consulted 3 trainers of which none have been able to help..because either they didnt know how..or Sam behaved himself in front of them.

I go to google and search for "dog trainers in Birmingham" then go to their websites to see what they do and what qualifications they hold


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> I don't think anyone thinks their dog is too special that it won't learn. I'm sure Malmum would love it if Flynn wasn't dog reactive as would I with Sam. I've not come across one expert who can sort it so far. Maybe experts over there are better than the ones I've met.


The experts are there to advise and help....the only person who can sort it is you the owner, your the one who has to put the work in, when you have come home, and it's not something that can be fixed overnight.

ps. I have a reactive dog too


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> I think a few members on here think checking means that you got to break your dogs neck in the process


If you check as i have seen taught with a similar wrist action as is used for cracking a whip the speed at the end of the flicked item whip or leash becomes rahter fast in the case of a whip, a small section breaks the sound barrier and causes a sonic boom allbeit a small one.... just becauses its rather to fast to see doesn't make it any less intense. So *I* have chosen not to do it.

People who regulalrly use checks in a minor way for tiny infractions can fall into using them in an intense way way the infraction is greater, hence *I* have seen numerous dogs pulled off their feet from yorkies to GSd's If I dont have this as a go to behaviour I'm not going ramp it up in a moment of stress.

These are my choices other people handle things in other ways and if they are happy with that and it works for them great.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ouesi said:


> For all of you who gently tug on the leash to get the dog's attention back on you, what do you do to get the dog's attention if they're not on a leash?


That depends on the dog, but generally if I get the leads ready to pop over their heads, they come back to me, if they're a bit far away I'll whistle them in first, Tau and Rhuna pretty much stick their heads in the lead. A lead is a training tool, which can be used effectively or abused just like any other training tool.

As regards the small dogs comment there also seems to be generalisation towards large dogs, with owners allowing their large bouncy dogs to go and say hello. I will admit I've been guilty of that but do try not to let my large dogs go over to any other dog, regardless of size, without me telling them it's ok to do so first. It's not ok for any dog to have a go at another dog, regardless of size, and people are bound to speak from their own general experience. I would say probably about 75% of the small breed dogs I've come across have some sort of behavioural issue, and the perception from their owners seems to be because their dog is small it's ok to allow that behaviour.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

dandogman said:


> I highly doubt a dog that walks to heel 99% of the time will do a lunge big enough to injure it's neck for that 1%


You need to be around when a cat runs from the BW then if I don't see it first .


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I would say probably about 75% of the small breed dogs I've come across have some sort of behavioural issue, and the perception from their owners seems to be because their dog is small it's ok to allow that behaviour.


What sort of behavioural issues are you seeing in 75% of small dogs??? I must live in a completely different universe - I don't deny that we've met some terribly behaved little dogs, but these form the vast minority in my experience.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> What sort of behavioural issues are you seeing in 75% of small dogs??? I must live in a completely different universe - I don't deny that we've met some terribly behaved little dogs, but these form the vast minority in my experience.


Where I used to live next to a livery yard, there were four small dogs from the surrounding houses, one JRT who used to roam around annoying any other dogs it came across then running for the hills. Two mini Schnausers who were never let off their flexi leads and who just barked constantly at any other dogs. The other small dog was a cocker spaniel who used to go jogging with his owner and was fine.

Where I lived before I bought this house, the only other dogs we saw were larger dogs, which all of mine were fine with.

Where I live now the JRT next door was killed shortly before Christmas, by a dog a bit further down, large RR. The next door neighbour blames the RR entirely, but she let her dog roam around for all the time she had him, annoying other dogs, p*ssing all over everyone else's property, and very nearly causing serious road traffic accidents. The neighbour a bit further up has a large dog that has issues, but it's a rescue, and the person in the end house has two JRT's, one bolshy, the other a sweetie. Then the couple who have a house across the road have a very bolshy cairn terrier. I think pretty much all the dogs here regardless of size have issues except mine 

When I lived in York, it was always small dogs that would bark at mine on lead. I had a friend who was a work colleague who bought a chihuahua, it never got walked or socialised because they were petrified it would get eaten/hurt by another dog, they successfully turned it into a fear aggressive dog.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

If it helps we have experience of Akitas as well...




She got a bit excited when the smaller dogs were running about, and if they zoomed past her she lunged a bit, but we didn't need to check her either.

As for naughty small dogs, here's my 3 walking to heel...


Small dog learning Leave


Small dog learning to fetch


Small dog learning leave 


Learning to walk nicely on lead


Well, you get the picture. I could do the same with medium dogs, oh and big dogs too...


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Where I used to live next to a livery yard, there were four small dogs from the surrounding houses, one JRT who used to roam around annoying any other dogs it came across then running for the hills. Two mini Schnausers who were never let off their flexi leads and who just barked constantly at any other dogs. The other small dog was a cocker spaniel who used to go jogging with his owner and was fine.
> 
> Where I lived before I bought this house, the only other dogs we saw were larger dogs, which all of mine were fine with.
> 
> ...


Wow - that's all really sad


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> Wow - that's all really sad


The neighbours who owned the JRT have family who have small dogs as well, they're allowed to roam around similarly, I've seen them up near the road several times, and they set my dogs off which are in a secure gated area at the back of my house so they can pop in and out and go to the loo if they need to. The lady was telling me before they lived here, they had a JRT bitch who died on the road, and they had to hand raise her litter of pups 

Very old fashioned attitude towards letting dogs roam like they used to in the bad old days.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

metaldog said:


> You'd be surprised just how many little dogs get traumatised by big dogs who 'just want to say hello'. If you search this forum there's hundreds of threads about it


Have to agree with this. I don't have small dogs and never have done yet but if someone who was 10 or 20 times my size ran over to me and pushed their face into mine I'd be pretty petrified so I think most small dogs do pretty well by comparison to that :lol:


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

5rivers79 said:


> I don't think anyone thinks their dog is too special that it won't learn. I'm sure Malmum would love it if Flynn wasn't dog reactive as would I with Sam. I've not come across one expert who can sort it so far. Maybe experts over there are better than the ones I've met.


Sadly I think most 'experts' here are as useful as a chocolate teapot at times. I've looked at all the dog trainers in Nottingham and the surrounding area and gone to check out quite a few, there's only one I'd ask for advice from.


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## LauraJane9 (Oct 3, 2012)

DT said:


> Oh a whole most of the small dogs we have met are well behaved, but that said I have found *many* smaller dogs to be more agressive for some reason.


I'm currently worried my Dex may end up fear aggressive because of bad experiences with big dogs.

Maybe small dogs are scared easier and that's why they turn to aggression?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> You just lost your bottom dollar.
> "It" BTW is a she.
> "It" is very prey driven and agile and quick enough to catch and kill rabbits.
> Danes are actually known to be quite prey driven. Definitely more prey driven than the malamute I used to have.
> ...


I agree with this despite also being guilty of this myself! 

As I have posted many times, I find Roxy a very challenging dog specially for someone like myself who is an inexperienced dog owner. Whilst I do think dogs will have their own personalitlies, likes/dislikes, etc I do think alot of the time I have blamed Roxy's 'traits' such as her high prey drive for her behaviour rather than my poor handling skills.

I have seen quite a few trainers & behaviorists, I have seen dogs working at various sports & have seen just how controlled high drive dogs can be with the right sort of training & it was amazing to watch.

Whether or not I could achieve that is debatable as there are lots of factors working against me, mainly me tbh!

I do think for some dogs they may have issues that will be managed rather than resolved but I do think a few of us suffer from the 'terminal uniqueness' way of thinking


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## LauraJane9 (Oct 3, 2012)

5rivers79 said:


> Most of Sam's attackers have been small dogs..only one was a ridge x. Its pathetic that these owners laugh it off and say he thinks he is as big as yours.


It is one of my 'pet hates' (excuse the pun) that people think because their dog is "just so tiny and cute" that they couldn't possibly cause any damage.

I have toy breeds but they are treated like dogs because that is what they are, letting them run riot because they're cute little fluff balls would be ignorant and moronic.

Picking up on your "he thinks he's as big as yours" I've had large dogs trample mine and the owners laugh that off too saying "oh he just loves small dogs" 

Forget size it's the owners!


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree with this despite also being guilty of this myself!
> 
> As I have posted many times, I find Roxy a very challenging dog specially for someone like myself who is an inexperienced dog owner. Whilst I do think dogs will have their own personalitlies, likes/dislikes, etc I do think alot of the time I have blamed Roxy's 'traits' such as her high prey drive for her behaviour rather than my poor handling skills.
> 
> ...


I think we're ALL guilty of it to some extent! 
I like to think that my dogs are the coolest, best, smartest dogs out there 
There is nothing wrong with thinking your dog is special and unique. However, when you are having problems, and every other suggestion is met with "you don't know what my dog is like, that would never work with him." Or, "you don't know what X breed is like, that doesn't work with them," you start really shooting yourself in the foot IME.

I once had a sighthound breeder with 30+ years experience tell me you can't clicker train a sighthound - no joke. 
Now, one of my best training buddies does obedience with her whippet, a super cool drivey little dog who is *gasp* clicker trained. I also happen to know that one of our top GH breeders clicker trains all her dogs, along with countless other examples of sighthounds being successfully clicker trained. So the whole thing kind of ended up as a joke to me.

Imagine though, if I were a new owner to sighthounds and this person with all this experience in the breed says to me, "you can't .... with this breed," and I believed them - because after all, they are the expert. Think of all I'm missing out on!

It's not for nuttin' that the more life experience you gain, the more you learn to avoid saying "can't" or "never." 

Again.... "Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those doing it."

As for prey drive, that's one of the easiest drives to work with. Watch a good IPO dog working with amazing precision and control - that's all built off of prey drive. 
In fact one of the things you do with young puppies destined for this kind of work is BUILD their prey drive. Give me a dog with prey drive any day over a dog without it!


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

moonviolet said:


> If you check as i have seen taught with a similar wrist action as is used for cracking a whip the speed at the end of the flicked item whip or leash becomes rahter fast in the case of a whip, a small section breaks the sound barrier and causes a sonic boom allbeit a small one.... just becauses its rather to fast to see doesn't make it any less intense. So *I* have chosen not to do it.
> 
> People who regulalrly use checks in a minor way for tiny infractions can fall into using them in an intense way way the infraction is greater, hence *I* have seen numerous dogs pulled off their feet from yorkies to GSd's If I dont have this as a go to behaviour I'm not going ramp it up in a moment of stress.
> 
> These are my choices other people handle things in other ways and if they are happy with that and it works for them great.


Yes, two things that can happen when you "wrist flick" repeatedly, one, your dog gets a "punishment callous", many dogs who are constantly nagged with the leash simply learn to tune it out (and get labeled stubborn, untrainable, stupid, etc.).

The other thing is what I call the elevator button mentality (lift for you brits ).
What does everyone do when they're in a hurry and the elevator doesn't come as fast as we'd like? We hit the button more than once or we hit it harder or both. We all know intellectually that pushing the elevator button more than once or pushing it with more force has exactly zero effect on how fast that elevator will ding for us, but we do it anyway! 
What happens when you "wrist flick" your dog and he ignores you? You "wrist flick" more or harder or both. It's human nature.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> I've not come across one expert who can sort it so far. Maybe experts over there are better than the ones I've met.


I think that here's were you go wrong. The only person that can sort your dog is YOU.

No "experts" will be able to do it for you (what is an "expert" anyway?). Just that you're using the term "expert" tells me that you expect way to much from an instructor/trainer.

Of course people can seek help from others: it would be stupid not to if there's a problem. But YOU are the on in charge. YOU have to decide who to seek help from, decide wether or not this is a person that works with methods that you find ethical and acceptable. YOU have decide if what the trainer suggests is something that'll suit your dog (it's your dog and no one knows it better than you). And when you find advice that you believe in, YOU have to do the work.

If you fail, it's YOUR fault, not the experts (they may have given bad advice, but you didn't have to follow it). And if you succeed, it's YOUR success.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I think we're ALL guilty of it to some extent!
> I like to think that my dogs are the coolest, best, smartest dogs out there
> There is nothing wrong with thinking your dog is special and unique. However, when you are having problems, and every other suggestion is met with "you don't know what my dog is like, that would never work with him." Or, "you don't know what X breed is like, that doesn't work with them," you start really shooting yourself in the foot IME.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. No dog is so unique that "no one else could possibly understand/train them". To me, what that translates to is; 'me and my dog are not completely compatible and I struggle with him/her'. There is nothing wrong with that of course as everyone suits different breeds. But I hate the attitude that no one could _possibly_ understand what it is like to own a certain breed because it is SO unique.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogless said:


> You need to be around when a cat runs from the BW then if I don't see it first .


And my 35kg Rupert pulled me off my feet and dragged me along for a few steps going after a cat I hadn't seen. At the time I weighed 16 stone so I was no lightweight and considering he ended up with a bruised chest (thankfully he was on a harness!) I'm pretty sure he could have done some serious damage to his neck had he been on a collar. Rupes loose leash walking was great most of the time, didn't walk to heel but the leash was loose.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I think we're ALL guilty of it to some extent!
> I like to think that my dogs are the coolest, best, smartest dogs out there
> There is nothing wrong with thinking your dog is special and unique. However, when you are having problems, and every other suggestion is met with "you don't know what my dog is like, that would never work with him." Or, "you don't know what X breed is like, that doesn't work with them," you start really shooting yourself in the foot IME.
> 
> ...


Brilliant post.

The sighthound thing is particularly apt as I've had people with decades of experience in rescue and the breed tell me that greyhounds can't be trained. That they don't enjoy it, they can never be off lead as you will never be able to train a recall, their prey drive/previous training is insurmountable and I believed it for the first few months of owning them. I also had a trainer tell me that I would never be able to sort out Ely's issues and that he would never be able to socialise with other dog. It would have been the worst and most unkind thing that I could have done for either of my dogs not to bother training them and not training a recall _but it was the advice I was given by people with a lot more experience then me_.

Ely spent this morning mixing with a group of 8 other dogs and Gypsy goes to classes and working trials training. Now I'm not a spectacular handler (although I like to think I'm getting better) and my dogs aren't massive anomalies so either something very weird has happened or the people who told me my breed is untrainable were wrong.

As for the prey drive/big dog needing different handling. I walk two greyhounds on lead everyday whose combined weight is 60kg. I regularly also walk my friend's greyhound who is a big boy (37kg) with them - so in total I have 97kg of prey driven dogs. Who have a phenomenal acceleration, a very high prey drive (Gypsy is a finisher and my friend's dog has to be muzzled and on lead at all times) and have also been _*trained to chase small furry things*_. I break their focus and control them with vocal commands because that's what I have trained them to respond to.

Oh and Ely also has re-directed aggression when he is frustrated with not being able to chase so I really need to be able to defuse the situation without ramping up tension levels with unnecessary physical corrections.

ETA: As for the small dog/big dog endless struggle - I have a dog that is very upset by other dogs barking at him (even though he weighs 30kg) so I don't appreciate it when people do allow their small dogs to bark at him (especially en-mass) as it frightens him. The small dog may be doing it because it is scared but so is my dog - he won't bark back so you might not see it but he is. Also for greyhounds and other sighthounds with thin skin - a small dog can do a lot of damage, Gypsy has had to have stitches before where she was bitten by a small dog. It's not just size that needs to be taken into consideration.

That said I meet as many well behaved small dogs as I do big dogs. We've had problems with two dogs in the last week, one big and one small - they were both untrained and owned by idiots. I tend to look at the owner and not the size of the dog.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> As for prey drive, that's one of the easiest drives to work with. Watch a good IPO dog working with amazing precision and control - that's all built off of prey drive.
> In fact one of the things you do with young puppies destined for this kind of work is BUILD their prey drive. Give me a dog with prey drive any day over a dog without it!


See I really, really wish I could have gotten Rupert to you or someone else with knowledge on how to work with a dog with ridiculously high prey drive because I couldn't do a thing with it and neither could anyone else I went to. Couldn't direct it onto toys, couldn't stop him reacting to prey, couldn't even find a way to break his absolute fixation once he'd spotted prey.

Rupert wasn't an easy dog by any stretch of the imagination but I always thought someone with more knowledge and experience would probably be able to do more with him.



> Yes, two things that can happen when you "wrist flick" repeatedly, one, your dog gets a "punishment callous", many dogs who are constantly nagged with the leash simply learn to tune it out (and get labeled stubborn, untrainable, stupid, etc.).


This is exactly why I was taught that if you do use a physical correction it needs to be severe enough that the dog works to avoid it happening again.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Sadly I think most 'experts' here are as useful as a chocolate teapot at times. I've looked at all the dog trainers in Nottingham and the surrounding area and gone to check out quite a few, there's only one I'd ask for advice from.


i'll send you mine


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

LauraJane9 said:


> Picking up on your "he thinks he's as big as yours" I've had large dogs trample mine and the owners laugh that off too saying "oh he just loves small dogs"
> 
> Forget size it's the owners!


I have lost time of the amount of times small owners have said to me oh look at him! aint he brave he's scared of nothing! ! I ALWAYS leash mine if I see a small dog off lead, not because I am afraid that mine will attack it, but I am scared they will be too boisterous if it comes over and wants to play, which I admit they are!

i think everyone has to view dogs owners in how some handle their dog sh*t many pick up many leave it! there's good and bad in all owners, always has been always will.

I am forutnate I dont have to walk with the summer day dog owners anymore, I've got some cracking walks on private land that we walk close by!


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

DT said:


> *I have lost time of the amount of times small owners have said to me oh look at him! aint he brave he's scared of nothing! !* I ALWAYS leash mine if I see a small dog off lead, not because I am afraid that mine will attack it, but I am scared they will be too boisterous if it comes over and wants to play, which I admit they are!
> 
> i think everyone has to view dogs owners in how some handle their dog sh*t many pick up many leave it! there's good and bad in all owners, always has been always will.
> 
> I am forutnate I dont have to walk with the summer day dog owners anymore, I've got some cracking walks on private land that we walk close by!


I think the saddest part is that most of the time the dog isn't brave - it's absolutely terrified and the owner can't see that. The dog that had a go at Ely on Saturday wasn't brave - it was frightened and the owner had no idea. It made me feel desperately sorry for the poor little thing.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> See I really, really wish I could have gotten Rupert to you or someone else with knowledge on how to work with a dog with ridiculously high prey drive because I couldn't do a thing with it and neither could anyone else I went to. Couldn't direct it onto toys, couldn't stop him reacting to prey, couldn't even find a way to break his absolute fixation once he'd spotted prey.
> 
> Rupert wasn't an easy dog by any stretch of the imagination but I always thought someone with more knowledge and experience would probably be able to do more with him.
> 
> This is exactly why I was taught that if you do use a physical correction it needs to be severe enough that the dog works to avoid it happening again.


A trainer I know was telling me about a very challenging Old English Sheepdog (iirc) he was consulting for who had a very high prey drive. Nothing would stop him and make him recall. In the end he taught the dog how to play frisbee, and then introduced a whistle which meant 'I'm going to throw this frisbee now', when the dog ran at something he would blow the whistle and his prey drive would be redirected to chase the frisbee instead. I was quite impressed with his solution.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> A trainer I know was telling me about a very challenging Old English Sheepdog (iirc) he was consulting for who had a very high prey drive. Nothing would stop him and make him recall. In the end he taught the dog how to play frisbee, and then introduced a whistle which meant 'I'm going to throw this frisbee now', when the dog ran at something he would blow the whistle and his prey drive would be redirected to chase the frisbee instead. I was quite impressed with his solution.


This is what I'm trying to do with Gypsy. She has yet to see the point of toys so I use myself instead. It's semi-successful and I've lost nearly a stone!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

L/C said:


> This is what I'm trying to do with Gypsy. She has yet to see the point of toys so I use myself instead. It's semi-successful and I've lost nearly a stone!


:lol: I really need to get fit because being interesting works so well. Shame I walk in heavy army boots which aren't suited to running about :rolleyes5: I do like to run away from Kes, dart about, play keep away etc. but after a few minutes I'm panting :lol:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

L/C said:


> I think the saddest part is that most of the time the dog isn't brave - it's absolutely terrified and the owner can't see that. The dog that had a go at Ely on Saturday wasn't brave - it was frightened and the owner had no idea. It made me feel desperately sorry for the poor little thing.


I will agree with that 100%
some owners are so inconsiderate though
Imagine the sceniaro, a little dog comes running over agreesivily to a large leashed dog, The large dog retalites, doesn.t bear thinking about, but I know who would get the blame


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

What an interesting thread! :thumbsup:

I am an inexperienced dog owner and trainer, albeit one who really wants to get things right. I am the first to admit that I missed a couple of tricks with Terence that somebody with more experience would have been able to sort earlier than I did. It also took me a long time to figure out what makes Terence "tick" so to speak. 
The thing is: I don't want to have an unhappy miserable dog and realistically, even though Terence is much smaller than a Dane or an Akita, I NEED him to work with me. If he wanted to, he could easily pull me over.

Sleeping_Lion has helped me tremendously over the past few months and I used her way of teaching heelwork (whatever it may be called). It worked a treat for Terence. He was attentive and wanted to get it right because it seemed more of a game for him than boring old walking in a straight line. In fact, it only took him a couple of sessions before he really got the hang of it. Most importantly, I now understand much better how to get the right response from Terence and how we can work TOGETHER to achieve a good result.
Just today on our walk, we bumped into 3 dogs, one of which was dog-aggressive. Terence is a very playful dog, very puppyish and wanted to sniff the DA dog. All it took from me was a "Leave it" and he then played with the 2 JRT (yes, that's right, my SBT played with 2 JRT and NOBODY was hurt  ). Even more importantly, when we parted ways, I wanted to do some training with him and just by keeping it playful and fun for him, he did very well. He was engaged, he was enjoying it and I was enjoying it, too.
Not that long ago, through his Kevin stage, I was tearing my hair out with him, so being at a stage where I can see a responsive, happy Terence makes me feel really, really pleased. 

Sorry for the rambling post. :blush:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> A trainer I know was telling me about a very challenging Old English Sheepdog (iirc) he was consulting for who had a very high prey drive. Nothing would stop him and make him recall. In the end he taught the dog how to play frisbee, and then introduced a whistle which meant 'I'm going to throw this frisbee now', when the dog ran at something he would blow the whistle and his prey drive would be redirected to chase the frisbee instead. I was quite impressed with his solution.


Yeah, that's the sort of thing a lot of people suggested with Rupert. But I never managed it. Rupe wouldn't even look at a toy outside of the house and I couldn't build much interest in one inside the house either. I always got the impression that it wasn't the chase that interested him, it was the kill. If that makes any sense.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> :lol: I really need to get fit because being interesting works so well. Shame I walk in heavy army boots which aren't suited to running about :rolleyes5: I do like to run away from Kes, dart about, play keep away etc. but after a few minutes I'm panting :lol:


I'm doing it in my wellies atm and I tell myself that it's also training for an event I'm doing in September. Makes me feel less like mad dog lady...


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

L/C said:


> I'm doing it in my wellies atm and I tell myself that it's also training for an event I'm doing in September. Makes me feel less like mad dog lady...


Mad dog lady about covers it. I'm glad it was dark on the park yesterday or I'm sure I would have seen 'those' looks from people while I was going 'Kes hereeeee' and running away round in circles then when she came back throwing snow in all directions and jumping in the air going 'yay!!11 wassthat oh yeahhh'

From that description....I think I do sound mad.  Everyone else was enjoying sledding with their kids though, I just wanted to have some fun like them


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> A trainer I know was telling me about a very challenging Old English Sheepdog (iirc) he was consulting for who had a very high prey drive. Nothing would stop him and make him recall. In the end he taught the dog how to play frisbee, and then introduced a whistle which meant 'I'm going to throw this frisbee now', when the dog ran at something he would blow the whistle and his prey drive would be redirected to chase the frisbee instead. I was quite impressed with his solution.


Can't believe I never thought of introducing a whistle; when Kilo wants to chase and begins his preliminary fixation or run onto something I redirect him by throwing a favourite toy which works well and I have been doing that since he was a puppy......but just use "What's this?".....I am going to start using a whistle for that, it 'cuts through' so much better than voice :idea:.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Vicki said:


> I think that here's were you go wrong. The only person that can sort your dog is YOU.
> 
> No "experts" will be able to do it for you (what is an "expert" anyway?). Just that you're using the term "expert" tells me that you expect way to much from an instructor/trainer.
> 
> ...


I fail to see your point because I want to sort Sam's single annoying issue out. I don't expect too much when all I'm expecting is a little advice that I can use to work with daily. Im not expecting too much when I take Sam to a club that which won't let him mix with other dogs because he is an Akita. I don't expect too much when I go to a club and the instructors tell me Akitas are difficult to read because of their curled tail and certainly don't expect too much when another club tells its members to keep a safe distance because there is an Akita in the room.

One told me to keep the lead loose so he feels calm..but he's lunging on the other end of it? I guess it doesn't help because he doesn't show this behaviour in the classes he has been too..but these professionals should have some idea without crapping themselves that he is an Akita.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

5rivers79 said:


> I fail to see your point because I want to sort Sam's single annoying issue out. I don't expect too much when all I'm expecting is a little advice that I can use to work with daily. Im not expecting too much when I take Sam to a club that *which won't let him mix withbothervdogs because he is an Akita*. I don't expect too much when I go to a club and the instructors tell me Akitas are difficult to read because of their curled tail and certainly don't expect too much when *another club tells its members to keep a safe distance because there is an Akita in the room.*
> 
> One told me to keep the lead loose so he feels calm..but he's lunging on the other end of it? I guess it doesn't help because he doesn't show this behaviour in the classes he has been too..but these professionals should have some idea without crapping themselves that he is an Akita.


Please tell me you didn't go back to these silly places?


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> I fail to see your point because I want to sort Sam's single annoying issue out. I don't expect too much when all I'm expecting is a little advice that I can use to work with daily. Im not expecting too much when I take Sam to a club that which won't let him mix with other dogs because he is an Akita. I don't expect too much when I go to a club and the instructors tell me Akitas are difficult to read because of their curled tail and certainly don't expect too much when another club tells its members to keep a safe distance because there is an Akita in the room.
> 
> One told me to keep the lead loose so he feels calm..but he's lunging on the other end of it? I guess it doesn't help because he doesn't show this behaviour in the classes he has been too..but these professionals should have some idea without crapping themselves that he is an Akita.


Have you tried the breed club?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Please tell me you didn't go back to these silly places?


Nope..they'd probably make Sam worse!


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> Have you tried the breed club?


Solely for Akitas? Not found one here...


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

I think she means the national breed club - they may be able to put you in touch with a good trainer or have some advice for you. Quick google came up with these:

Welcome to the Akita Association

Japanese Akita Inu Club Home Page


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Solely for Akitas? Not found one here...


Just going by a quick google:
Welcome to the Akita Association

I know these are in Scotland, but I am sure emailing somebody there would be alright?
Akita Club of Scotland


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

L/C said:


> I think she means the national breed club - they may be able to put you in touch with a good trainer or have some advice for you. Quick google came up with these:
> 
> Welcome to the Akita Association
> 
> Japanese Akita Inu Club Home Page


She does indeed. Great minds...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> What an interesting thread! :thumbsup:
> 
> I am an inexperienced dog owner and trainer, albeit one who really wants to get things right. I am the first to admit that I missed a couple of tricks with Terence that somebody with more experience would have been able to sort earlier than I did. It also took me a long time to figure out what makes Terence "tick" so to speak.
> The thing is: I don't want to have an unhappy miserable dog and realistically, even though Terence is much smaller than a Dane or an Akita, I NEED him to work with me. If he wanted to, he could easily pull me over.
> ...


It was a great post! 

Sort of how I feel with Roxy, I now realise how playful she is & how I can use this to my advantage rather than have 'serious' training sessions. She's far from perfect ut then so am I, I still have alot to learn. I read alot regarding training, etc but still struggle putting some ideas in to practise or I raise criteria too quickly. Whilst on a course recently (John Rogerson) he stressed to 'train' our dogs rather than 'test' them which really made sense to me.

The comment from Phoolf regarding the whistle is sort of what I have been practising & is working to a degree. We have just come back from a walk & towards the end Roxy noticed a hare. It was hopping rathyer than running (so not quite as exciting!) I quickly called her, blew my whistle for her to come to me, threw her ball which she chased. I was chuffed to bits - I really didn't want to spend ages out in the freezing cold if she b*ggered off.

It was sort of good timing on my part but great that the hare wasn't acting in a too exciting way that this was successful training exercise, I just wish all the wildlife was quite so co-operative!


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## WhatWouldSidDo (Nov 17, 2012)

I spent a year at a training club over 20 years ago where every week we would walk in circles shouting heal and yanking the dogs backward.

Funny how it didn't occur to anyone that if what they were doing worked, then they would no longer need to be doing it.

This is probably the time when I thought, there must be an easier way and started reward based training. 

I do believe that it's possible to use a check or a jerk to correct an unwanted behaviour but in almost every case I've seen of people using it, the timing has been poor and the dog doesn't have a clue as to what caused the jerk so couldn't correct the behaviour if it wanted to.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I don't. It has to be fun and positive for my boys otherwise they stop listening altogether.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> You just lost your bottom dollar.
> "It" BTW is a she.
> "It" is very prey driven and agile and quick enough to catch and kill rabbits.
> Danes are actually known to be quite prey driven. Definitely more prey driven than the malamute I used to have.
> ...


This is so the case. :ciappa:

If I had a £1 for every person who said/says:

_Ah but you do not understand, this breed is different it has quality never before seen in any other breed, individual, etc etc. It takes specialist knowledge to ................._

And I cannot tell you how many times I have used that self same proverb. 

And when I get told "I_ have been told by (insert name of relevant discipline/breed specialist) that (insert relevant breed) cannot do (insert relevant activity) or do (insert relevant activity) AND do (insert relevant activity)"_

I respond with.

"Actually what this person means is THEY have never done it or seen it done or know it to have been done; not that it CANNOT be done, it is just outside THEIR own skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience" 

But it is like reverse snobbery, some people take PRIDE in stating how untrainable, stubborn, bad etc their dogs are. 

Rather than saying "this problem/issue etc is outside my particular skill set, I need assistance"


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Correct me if I am wrong, were not Malamutes bred to be the canine equivalent of a draught horse, pulling loads in teams of two or more?

So, if they have same sex aggression presumably you cannot have more than two malamutes pulling freight (one of each sex) otherwise they would be fighting each other all the time?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> But it is like reverse snobbery, some people take PRIDE in stating how untrainable, stubborn, bad etc their dogs are.
> 
> Rather than saying "this problem/issue etc is outside my particular skill set, I need assistance"


I used to say Rupert was the worst dog at class and he honestly was most weeks. It wasn't so much that I took pride in that as the fact that if I hadn't laughed about it I'd have cried  Same with some of his other problems, if I hadn't made light about them I'd have been a quivering wreck.

I fully admitted I was in way over my head with his issues though and did look for help, just didn't find anyone I could get to who was any more capable than I was.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> This is so the case. :ciappa:
> 
> If I had a £1 for every person who said/says:
> 
> ...


Yep.

I am sure most of use have wondered whether our dogs would be 'different' or able to achieve their full potential if they were owned by someone else. It ain't the dog that is the problem but the person on the end of the lead.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

labradrk said:


> Yep.
> 
> I am sure most of use have wondered whether our dogs would be 'different' *or able to achieve their full potential if they were owned by someone else.* It ain't the dog that is the problem but the person on the end of the lead.


Me, this is me!! 
I have the coolest, smartest, drivey-est dog who could really be spectacular with a different handler. Instead poor guy is stuck with me who's easily flustered, who says sit while signaling down, who's late or misses clicks all the time... Thank goodness he's as forgiving as he is!

My poor dog, he's definitely what we call "handler challenged" LOL!! It's okay though, I really don't think dogs care about these things as much as we do.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DT said:


> I will agree with that 100%
> some owners are so inconsiderate though
> Imagine the sceniaro, a little dog comes running over agreesivily to a large leashed dog, The large dog retalites, doesn.t bear thinking about, but I know who would get the blame


Already been there, see my post on page 25, my neighbours JRT was killed by another neighbours RR before Christmas.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

labradrk said:


> Yep.
> 
> I am sure most of use have wondered whether our dogs would be 'different' or able to achieve their full potential if they were owned by someone else. It ain't the dog that is the problem but the person on the end of the lead.


Very true. I think most of us who aren't excellent or highly skilled handlers probably feel this way. I know I fail Kes where training is concerned, I can read as much as I like but nothing replaces practical experience, and while it's all in my head seeing as I work full time, run the household and do a degree it's exhausting to think of training daily. If I could be at home with her all day long I'm sure she would be pretty sorted with most issues, but some days I'm so tired I just give up.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I personally see the other view... how worse behaved your dogs could be with a different owner. 

I know I could have done a little better with Pippa, but I know I could have done a whole lot worse!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> I used to say Rupert was the worst dog at class and he honestly was most weeks. It wasn't so much that I took pride in that as the fact that if I hadn't laughed about it I'd have cried  Same with some of his other problems, if I hadn't made light about them I'd have been a quivering wreck.
> 
> I fully admitted I was in way over my head with his issues though and did look for help, just didn't find anyone I could get to who was any more capable than I was.


But you tried & did not pass a 'problem' dog on for which you should be proud of. As I have said before I do not believe every do can be 'cured' of every behavioural problem but we can learn to manage them a bit better or learn how to avoid triggers.

Roxy would probably be a lot better behaved with a more experienced owner but unfortunately she has me! I do not have limtless funds for training, I do not have stooge dogs on hand, I do not have people to help me out on walks, neither do I have hours each day in order to spend with her so she is (sort of) the product of what I can do. I do try my best though & always try to acknowledge the small acheivements we make


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Me, this is me!!
> I have the coolest, smartest, drivey-est dog who could really be spectacular with a different handler. Instead poor guy is stuck with me who's easily flustered, who says sit while signaling down, who's late or misses clicks all the time... Thank goodness he's as forgiving as he is!
> 
> My poor dog, he's definitely what we call "handler challenged" LOL!! It's okay though, I really don't think dogs care about these things as much as we do.


Yep. And it is even more annoying when you know how to do something by the book (be it timing, rewarding, engagement, whatever) and you STILL get it wrong while others make it look far too easy.

Like you say though, luckily the dogs don't think about how rubbish we can be! good job really!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> I personally see the other view... how worse behaved your dogs could be with a different owner.
> 
> I know I could have done a little better with Pippa, but I know I could have done a whole lot worse!


Also so true. Kes is very full on and I often wonder how her 10 litter mates get on. Although on meeting her brother a few months ago I think I got the most full on pup of the lot, and the guy who had the pups said she was the more boisterous one (after we got her thinking she was calm as Jesus haha). I'm glad I ended up with her though, I think some people might have given up.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

labradrk said:


> Yep. And it is even more annoying when you know how to do something by the book (be it timing, rewarding, engagement, whatever) and you STILL get it wrong while others make it look far too easy.
> 
> Like you say though, luckily the dogs don't think about how rubbish we can be! good job really!


I know my end of term report card wouldn't be up to par with my normal grades


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Im not gunna sit here and say that I need to check my dogs and nothing else has worked with them, they're strong dogs etc etc. That's a total lie. 

I actually taught Kira loose lead walking with a headcollar and clicker training! Then moved onto a collar, keeping the headcollar on me for back-up should I need it. BUT - it took time. 

I'll admit I never really put the effort into the other 2, as they used to get walked by both me and OH in the fields, on harnesses where they were allowed to pull, Kira was my 'town' dog, the one I took around town, to cafes, to the dog park, so she was the only one who needed to walk nicely, the other 2 didnt go to these places (if they went to the park we took usually took the car), so LLW wasnt important.

Fell pregnant & felt like crap and no longer had the energy to do individual walks, so suddenly I had 2 dogs who i'd not really worked with but needed to be able to manage on a pack walk! Hence me using 'checking' to bring them back into line with me. Lazy yes but it worked and worked quickly which was what was needed at the time. 

Had I been a better owner or even just thought ahead to the future a little bit (bump wasn't exactly planned ) I would (and should) have trained them all individually when I was feeling well enough to do so. But hey I like an easy life!

But it worked, and the dogs are not any worse off for it. They're not checked hard and all wear wide collars which I like to think would damage the neck less than thinner ones. The alternative is either:
- they get out less often
- I put them all in headcollars (which 2 of them aren't conditioned to and so hate them)
- I make myself ill and put myself back in hospital 
- I let them all pull and risk hurting myself and/or loosing the baby

So yes i'll admit to being lazy and using it as the easy option, least Im honest!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

sid&kira said:


> Im not gunna sit here and say that I need to check my dogs and nothing else has worked with them, they're strong dogs etc etc. That's a total lie.
> 
> I actually taught Kira loose lead walking with a headcollar and clicker training! Then moved onto a collar, keeping the headcollar on me for back-up should I need it. BUT - it took time.
> 
> ...


We can only do the best with what we have Sid, whether thats not being a good trainer, not having the right amount of time or being pregnant.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Lucky can be fear aggressive, its mainly with larger dogs. She was great growing up, I worked hard socialising her at every opportunity. She would run around the park and beach with dogs of all sizes.

Due to a few horrible encounters with large dogs (1 incident she was grabbed by the throat and shook, thankfully my OH was there to kick the dog hard enough for it to drop her and 2 other incidents she was pinned and terrified to move) she has lost a lot of confidence and will sometimes scream and snap in fear. All the while the moronic owners are shouting "oh, he's just playing"  
She never barks at other dogs, never lunges etc. Mainly she will ignore large dogs unless the run at her, then its cowering, screaming, snapping etc. 

Only the other day a large black dog ran at her while she was onlead. Lucky jumped up onto the bench next to me but the big dog had her hackles up trying to force its head between me and Lucky. I lost it with the owner but she just casually walked to get her dog back. 
Really makes me mad. 

Idiot owners of large breeds have destroyed Lucky's confidence. Worse still a lot of them think its funny to hear her screaming. 

She's great with dogs she knows but that's only about 3 total. I would love to build her confidence with large dogs but there's no decent large dog owners around here.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

labradrk said:


> Yep.
> 
> I am sure most of use have wondered whether our dogs would be 'different' or able to achieve their full potential if they were owned by someone else. It ain't the dog that is the problem but the person on the end of the lead.


I wonder about this all the time!



Goldstar said:


> Lucky can be fear aggressive, its mainly with larger dogs. She was great growing up, I worked hard socialising her at every opportunity. She would run around the park and beach with dogs of all sizes.
> 
> Due to a few horrible encounters with large dogs (1 incident she was grabbed by the throat and shook, thankfully my OH was there to kick the dog hard enough for it to drop her and 2 other incidents she was pinned and terrified to move) she has lost a lot of confidence and will sometimes scream and snap in fear. All the while the moronic owners are shouting "oh, he's just playing"
> She never barks at other dogs, never lunges etc. Mainly she will ignore large dogs unless the run at her, then its cowering, screaming, snapping etc.
> ...


But fear of other dogs is unfortunately not a problem exclusive to small dog owners caused by large dogs; Kilo can be fearful of large dogs following attacks but has also had chunks taken out of him by a JRT and a BT so can be fearful of any dog which approaches fast / aggressively. Idiot owners of breeds of all sizes think it's hilarious to see Kilo worried . It's just irresponsible owners I think, whatever size or shape of dog they may have on the end of the lead.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

labradrk said:


> Yep.
> 
> I am sure most of use have wondered whether our dogs would be 'different' or able to achieve their full potential if they were owned by someone else. It ain't the dog that is the problem but the person on the end of the lead.


Oh god yeah, I think Spen would be fantastic with someone who wanted to do something with him rather than have him just as pet and who had the skills and knowledge to get him working to his full potential. Instead he has bumbling old me


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I wonder about this all the time!
> 
> But fear of other dogs is unfortunately not a problem exclusive to small dog owners caused by large dogs; Kilo can be fearful of large dogs following attacks but has also had chunks taken out of him by a JRT and a BT so can be fearful of any dog which approaches fast / aggressively. Idiot owners of breeds of all sizes think it's hilarious to see Kilo worried . It's just irresponsible owners I think, whatever size or shape of dog they may have on the end of the lead.


Totally agree. Lucky is terrified of an elderly JRT that has harassed her, she's was also afraid of 2 cairn x puppies. I completely agree that the owner is at fault not the dog. 
All I meant was that around here most large dogs are owned by irresponsible people so Lucky rarely gets any positive encounters with large dogs.
With small dogs we only see a few westies and the occasional bichon now its gone colder but they are owned by elderly people who keep them onlead.

Apart from the awful man with the elderly JRT of course who seems to appear out of nowhere.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

labradrk said:


> Yep.
> 
> I am sure most of use have wondered whether our dogs would be 'different' or able to achieve their full potential if they were owned by someone else. It ain't the dog that is the problem but the person on the end of the lead.


Oh, I think about this all the time.
How well-behaved could Terence be, how great could he be at obedience, if only he had a "better" owner. But then I only have to think about how many juvenile Staffies are in rescue because of how boisterous and challenging they can be. I only have to think about all the twonks you use their dogs for fighting and all sorts of other despicable things and then I think:
Actually, Terence has a great life. He gets to run offlead almost every day, he has great friends, most people who meet him like him, and most importantly, we love him.
Yes, maybe there is a "better" home for him with a "better" handler, but he has it pretty damn good.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Sam would be immense under the guidance of some one who isnt a newbie like me. His intelligence far exceeds mine. Amazing dog love him to bits!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

labradrk said:


> Yep.
> 
> I am sure most of use have wondered whether our dogs would be 'different' or able to achieve their full potential if they were owned by someone else. It ain't the dog that is the problem but the person on the end of the lead.


I have never thought this....... My dogs don't give a toss if they have reached some humans definition of "potential"........ My main concern is their health and happiness.
That can be achieved in different ways by different dogs.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> See I really, really wish I could have gotten Rupert to you or someone else with knowledge on how to work with a dog with ridiculously high prey drive because I couldn't do a thing with it and neither could anyone else I went to. Couldn't direct it onto toys, couldn't stop him reacting to prey, couldn't even find a way to break his absolute fixation once he'd spotted prey.


 IME a lot of trainers, even experienced ones, really don't know how to work a dog in drive. All they know how to do is get a dog out of drive and work the dog from there.

I'm just now, in the last 3 or 4 years or so, learning how to do this myself. It's not easy either. I find drive building to be a tough balancing act TBH and when you have a dog the size of a dane it can be more than a bit intimidating!

It's honestly not easy to find a trainer who is experienced working with multiple dogs in drive. On this side of the pond, most of them are sequestered in the SchH/IPO community and they tend to be very guarded about sharing their "secrets" with the general dog owning community. This is slowly changing, and we are all benifitting from the shared knowledge of folks like Michael Ellis, Denise Fenzi and others.



smokeybear said:


> This is so the case. :ciappa:
> 
> If I had a £1 for every person who said/says:
> 
> ...


If I had a $1 for every thing our dogs have achieved that according to this or that expert they should not have... Heck if I had a $1 for everything they have achieved that *I* never thought they would!

And yes, I have most definitely met folks who take pride in how "bad" their own dog is. Who smile condescendingly at my dogs while loudly pronouncing that their dog would never behave that well. As if that somehow makes their dog more... IDK... More challenging? And thus by association they are also *more*. It's a weird dynamic - just another manifestation of ego wrapped up in the dog I guess...


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, were not Malamutes bred to be the canine equivalent of a draught horse, pulling loads in teams of two or more?
> 
> So, if they have same sex aggression presumably you cannot have more than two malamutes pulling freight (one of each sex) otherwise they would be fighting each other all the time?


I find this very interesting, too. I live in Sweden and have _never_ heard that Malamutes are such difficult dogs and that same sex aggression is common. I believe that the reason for that is that Malamutes are very rare in Sweden and people who have them use them for what they were meant to, i.e pulling. They are not at all common in the show ring.

I get the impression that Malamutes in the UK are bred mainly for show and not for work. When dogs are bred for show they usually change their looks, and Malamutes are big, beautiful dogs and they are bred to look very masculine, because that's the look show judges want. More masculine dogs = more testosterone and more testosterone = same sex aggression.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

TBH, I am quite amazed at the amount of so called 'dog trainers' that have cropped up over the past few years! Is there an online course or something that I am missing
dog training surely (in many instances) involves 'reading' your dog! can someone else really teach that to you?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

DT said:


> TBH, I am quite amazed at the amount of so called 'dog trainers' that have cropped up over the past few years! Is there an online course or something that I am missing
> dog training surely (in many instances) involves 'reading' your dog! can someone else really teach that to you?


Not when you are conditioning instead of training, which is what most seem to advocate

Operant conditioning is different to training

Operant Conditioning vs. Clicker Training | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> Not when you are conditioning instead of training, which is what most seem to advocate
> 
> Operant conditioning is different to training
> 
> Operant Conditioning vs. Clicker Training | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


Wot ya trying to do to me Rona


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rona said:


> Not when you are conditioning instead of training, which is what most seem to advocate
> 
> Operant conditioning is different to training
> 
> Operant Conditioning vs. Clicker Training | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


ROFLMAO thanks for that Rona, Operant Conditioning is different to training, gotta be the larf of the day, even better than Shergar in Burgers.

Absolutely brilliant! :ciappa:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

and for them of you left wondering HAMBURGERS" is an anagram of "SHERGAR BUM"?


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I will admit to getting frustrated at times and checking Jake. It isn't a yank, and, in all honesty, he barely seems to notice it  I do use my voice first, but Jake doesn't react to a voice that much... so, after a few times ignoring me, I will check him. I will check him, bring him closer to me and get him into a sit while I gather myself together... and we will set off again. Jake's biggest problem, is seeing or smelling something, and suddenly pulling off to the side... it drives me absolutely insane because most of the time I am not expecting it and I have bad shoulders as it is... and Jake has made them worse. 

Arrow on the other hand, reacts very well to voice... so I have never really had a need to check him (I do take hold of his collar when he jumps up at people though, to keep him on the ground) because my voice does it. 

It is Jake's sudden pulling that is the reason why I walk them on a harness when road walking (I don't put him in a harness when he will be spending the majority of time off lead)... and it means that when I check him, he is on his harness. I do think that positive training is great, but it isn't the only way. 

I'll be honest though, I do my best not too listen to much to peoples opinions on the internet, ever since I was chastised for tapping Jake on the bum to ask him to move


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2013)

> rona said:
> 
> 
> > Not when you are conditioning instead of training, which is what most seem to advocate
> ...


Indeed, what are you trying to say Rona?
That KP article doesn't exactly support your argument... refutes it more like it....


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

dandogman said:


> I personally see the other view... how worse behaved your dogs could be with a different owner.
> 
> I know I could have done a little better with Pippa, but I know I could have done a whole lot worse!


I like this view 

I know Millie would prob be better in a home where no one works it a no brainer but theres a reason her previous 2 families gave her away. 

I have to remind myself of how amazing she is and how far she has come


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have not read any of this thread and I cant really be bothered as I am sure there is lots of arguments.

But when I read posts where people say they have been trying to get their dog to walk on a loose lead for months or years I do wonder what they are doing. With the correct timing a handful of corrections will teach most dogs to walk on a loose lead.
Toffee is seldom on the lead and is a natural puller but as she is so seldom on the lead it was not getting solved. I spent 10 minutes training her and she has not pulled since.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I have not read any of this thread and I cant really be bothered as I am sure there is lots of arguments.
> 
> But when I read posts where people say they have been trying to get their dog to walk on a loose lead for months or years I do wonder what they are doing. With the correct timing a handful of corrections will teach most dogs to walk on a loose lead.
> Toffee is seldom on the lead and is a natural puller but as she is so seldom on the lead it was not getting solved. I spent 10 minutes training her and she has not pulled since.


What was your method, out of interest?
Im currently 're-training' the loose lead for Dresden after a few months on a dogmatic has made him lapse a bit (he used to have a good loose lead walk before that).
We use the stop-start method, and it seems to work for him, but not in 10 minutes! Its going to be a few more weeks before he's totally back to how he was, I guess.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Never had a problem with loose leash training. But then I don't have a problem with giving my dogs a little correction here and there.

Call in the firing squad because I've even pushed Sams arse out the way when he doesn't budge. Lol


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Call in the firing squad because I've even pushed Sams arse out the way when he doesn't budge. Lol


Nah! you're entitled to a hearing first
t'is you're rights as a human


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> ROFLMAO thanks for that Rona,* Operant Conditioning is different to training,* gotta be the larf of the day, even better than Shergar in Burgers.
> 
> Absolutely brilliant! :ciappa:


ROFLMAO that's what I said wasn't it?


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Whether a dog is working for a reward or more traditionally to avoid a punisher it's all operant conditioning.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Shadowrat said:


> What was your method, out of interest?
> Im currently 're-training' the loose lead for Dresden after a few months on a dogmatic has made him lapse a bit (he used to have a good loose lead walk before that).
> We use the stop-start method, and it seems to work for him, but not in 10 minutes! Its going to be a few more weeks before he's totally back to how he was, I guess.


I use the 'old fashioned' method of correcting the dog if it is out of position. I actually prefer using a half check or even a check collar as you get an even pressure around the neck. If you are correcting a dog in a flat collar (or even if the dog is pulling) then all the pressure is on the windpipe.
I keep the lead loose at all times except during the correction. It is a jerk on the lead, as there is not really any other word to describe it better, but it is tailored to suit the dog. So the correction might be literally a tightening of the fingers and release or it might be a proper jerk and release. I have yet to find a dog that does not respond fairly instantly to it.

TBH I was very lazy with Toffee and she was the first dog I have ever owned that was a compulsive puller. I cheated and used a gentle leader which was fine but I am always losing it so she was still ending up on a collar and lead. She was really behaving badly at agility, trying to get to other dogs and pulling constantly on the lead so I spent a few minutes training her properly for the first time and she has never pulled on the lead since - mind you she has not been on it much so I cant promise you she is 'trained'.

Even if you have to be harsh on your dog is it not better to have one or two sessions and then have a happy and comfortable dog for the rest of its days rather than having a dog that is pulling and hurting its neck and your arms and is constantly being nagged at to walk properly.

I would say the most important thing with any method is to teach your dog to watch you before you train anything else though.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> Whether a dog is working for a reward or more traditionally to avoid a punisher it's all operant conditioning.


Exactly


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2013)

rona said:


> Exactly


So how IS operant conditioning different than training in your opinion?
You seem to prefer "training" over OC, but I don't understand how you differentiate between the two.
Perhaps you can explain what you mean by training? What is training? Can you give an example of something that is training, not OC?


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2013)

5rivers79 said:


> Never had a problem with loose leash training. But then I don't have a problem with giving my dogs a little correction here and there.
> 
> Call in the firing squad because I've even pushed Sams arse out the way when he doesn't budge. Lol


If loose leash walking isn't a problem for you, you shouldn't be having problems with your dog lunging on the leash. Just sayin'


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

ouesi said:


> If loose leash walking isn't a problem for you, you shouldn't be having problems with your dog lunging on the leash. Just sayin'


I don't believe that's true. Totally different scenario. Sam and Luck aren't dragging me down the road.. with their strength and power they could easily be taking me out for a walk rather than the other way around

...just saying


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> Nope and nope. I've never 'jerked' a lead to get attention, never been something I've been interested in doing. I'll get attention verbally or if she's pulling like a steam train I'll just hold on and calm her down and get to heel again. Not a problem. I find people who walk along like Barbara Woodhouse initiates jerking their leads like it has some amazing significance to training quite bizarre tbh. Perhaps definitions of jerking differ though, I see a jerk as a very hard and swift pull ala The Woodhouse, so I'm sure people will take umbridge at me thinking it's silly.


No I don't either. I am working really hard with lead reactive Molly to simply stop dead or turn her if we see another dog. The only benefit of jerking is that a very good looking man at the pub told me not too and asked me out which made me feel better although OH was none too impressed


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2013)

5rivers79 said:


> I don't believe that's true. Totally different scenario. Sam and Luck aren't dragging me down the road.. with their strength and power they could easily be taking me out for a walk rather than the other way around
> 
> ...just saying


That's the thing though. If they understand the concept of keeping the leash loose, it shouldn't matter what the distraction, the leash should stay loose. 
A dog who leash lunges has not fully learned the lesson of loose leash walking.

Example: My dane girl went through a phase where she would go airborne at seeing something she wanted to chase. She understood that the rules for LLW meant she had to stay next to me, however I had not clarified that next to me also meant with all 4 feet on the ground. She never PULLED on the leash, she just turned in to a kangaroo. 

It's like saying my dog "knows" sit. But in practice the dog will only sit...
if there is nothing else he'd rather do
if you have a treat
if you're standing in front of him
if the ground is soft and dry
if the ground is still (ever try getting a dog to sit on a wobble board?)
if you are standing (ever test your sit cue while YOU are sitting?)

So, by my standards a dog who leash lunges has not fully learned the lesson of how to walk nicely on a leash.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

ouesi said:


> That's the thing though. If they understand the concept of keeping the leash loose, it shouldn't matter what the distraction, the leash should stay loose.
> A dog who leash lunges has not fully learned the lesson of loose leash walking.
> 
> Example: My dane girl went through a phase where she would go airborne at seeing something she wanted to chase. She understood that the rules for LLW meant she had to stay next to me, however I had not clarified that next to me also meant with all 4 feet on the ground. She never PULLED on the leash, she just turned in to a kangaroo.
> ...


Kilo walks very nicely apart from as you say going practically airborne if a cat runs from him. I have finally mastered the going past nicely if they are walking or still...how did you accomplish that final part? Use a clicker and just capture every single time feet were on floor even for a second in the presence of 'prey'?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

ouesi said:


> That's the thing though. If they understand the concept of keeping the leash loose, it shouldn't matter what the distraction, the leash should stay loose.
> A dog who leash lunges has not fully learned the lesson of loose leash walking.
> 
> Example: My dane girl went through a phase where she would go airborne at seeing something she wanted to chase. She understood that the rules for LLW meant she had to stay next to me, however I had not clarified that next to me also meant with all 4 feet on the ground. She never PULLED on the leash, she just turned in to a kangaroo.
> ...


I better buy some rollar skates then as id save quite abit on fuel.

As for sitting yeah..i sit if theres not much to do. I also sit if someone gives me a plate of food. If someone stands in front of me i dont know why i would sit (Sam doesnt know either). I wouldnt want my arse getting wet sitting on the wet grass (but Sam isnt bothered so he does..annoyingly!). The ground shaking under me would worry me so i wouldnt sit there..think id rather move to a unshaky bit of ground. If im sitting and tell Sam to sit..he will come give me a kiss and then sit beside me 

Think i get all my bad habits from Sam! I must be trained harder!


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2013)

Dogless said:


> Kilo walks very nicely apart from as you say going practically airborne if a cat runs from him. I have finally mastered the going past nicely if they are walking or still...how did you accomplish that final part? Use a clicker and just capture every single time feet were on floor even for a second in the presence of 'prey'?


I'd like to know too, except in the presence of dogs rather than cats.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2013)

Dogless said:


> Kilo walks very nicely apart from as you say going practically airborne if a cat runs from him. I have finally mastered the going past nicely if they are walking or still...how did you accomplish that final part? Use a clicker and just capture every single time feet were on floor even for a second in the presence of 'prey'?


No, that's not a clicker thing for us, that's an impulse control thing 
Lots and lots and lots of impulse control exercises. It's funny, dogs are so bad about generalizing, but things like impulse control really do transfer over to other areas well.

Once her impulse control kicked in, she has been fine on leash.

The other thing is, I do want to lure course with her eventually, and I *like* that she has prey drive because I can use it in other areas. So I have deliberately avoided trying to train the prey drive out of her.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2013)

ouesi said:


> No, that's not a clicker thing for us, that's an impulse control thing
> Lots and lots and lots of impulse control exercises. It's funny, dogs are so bad about generalizing, but things like impulse control really do transfer over to other areas well.
> 
> Once her impulse control kicked in, she has been fine on leash.
> ...


Lure coursing? I'd love to do lure coursing one day with my lurch but sadly he'd spend his whoooooole day trying to get all the other dogs to play with him. 

So what do you do when she spots a cat or something? Say leave? How do you get the impulse control to generalise? Cause mine will wait till hell dried up 
if I make him wait for food, so how do I get that across to not charging through doors and not wanting to jump on other dogs heads???

Also, what breed of dog do you have outta interest?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

ouesi said:


> No, that's not a clicker thing for us, that's an impulse control thing
> Lots and lots and lots of impulse control exercises. It's funny, dogs are so bad about generalizing, but things like impulse control really do transfer over to other areas well.
> 
> Once her impulse control kicked in, she has been fine on leash.
> ...


I have been doing loads and loads of impulse control stuff with Kilo and am seeing very good results - got a 'leave' from a running cat for the first time the other day. I have also learned to switch him 'on' in training for the first time recently and it is a revelation . We have always played tug and I can get him really hyped and then 'off' again immediately but hadn't managed to use it in any other way - I'm too thick . I am guessing that if I keep on keeping on (under the guidance of the trainer I go to) that I should crack it eventually then :yesnod:.

One of Kilo's relatives is the number one ranked RR in the US at present for lure coursing. I LOVE the idea of it.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2013)

LurcherOwner said:


> Lure coursing? I'd love to do lure coursing one day with my lurch but sadly he'd spend his whoooooole day trying to get all the other dogs to play with him.
> 
> So what do you do when she spots a cat or something? Say leave? How do you get the impulse control to generalise? Cause mine will wait till hell dried up
> if I make him wait for food, so how do I get that across to not charging through doors and not wanting to jump on other dogs heads???
> ...


She's a great dane  In the US you can course with dogs that aren't sighthounds in a different class. She's a major hunter, and I think she would LOVE lure coursing!

I don't have to do anything if she spots a cat, I might say her name, but mostly we just keep walking. She might whine or bounce when she walks, but she doesn't take off. Usually I just tell her what a good girl she is for controling herself 

The thing about impulse control is that when you train for it, you HAVE to give the dog 100% free choice. Yes you set up the training so that the situation is managed, and the dog can't self-reinforce, but you can't give cues or hints or anything - the dog HAS to figure it out on their own.

If you are the one influencing the dog, no matter how slightly, then you're not teaching impulse control, you're teaching the dog that you are in control, and the dog will forever be reliant on you and the tools you have available to you, rather than learning how to control herself. 
Ugh... sorry, it's a hard concept for me to articulate, I hope what I'm saying makes some sense. It's easier to show you than tell you!

My favorite exercises for impulse control are things from Susan Garrett (Crate Games) and Leslie McDevitt (Control Unleashed). Also stuff from Jane Killion (When Pigs Fly) applies.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2013)

ouesi said:


> She's a great dane  In the US you can course with dogs that aren't sighthounds in a different class. She's a major hunter, and I think she would LOVE lure coursing!
> 
> I don't have to do anything if she spots a cat, I might say her name, but mostly we just keep walking. She might whine or bounce when she walks, but she doesn't take off. Usually I just tell her what a good girl she is for controling herself
> 
> ...


I have the When pigs fly book somewhere! I'll have a look at the other ones on amazon. 
A great dane doing lure coursing?

When you go, you'd better take pics/video so we can all see, it'll be brilliant!


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