# Sticky  Help with a nipping pup



## Cloudy Star

Hi, had our little pup Tess for about a week now and she is settling down really well with us, however, she is really nipping at our feet and legs. It tends to be worse when she is excited for example first thing in the morning when she is full of energy. She is a 9 week old Springer Spaniel.

Has anyone got and advice of techniques to stop her doing this. My feet are gonna get sore otherwise and my trousers will become shorts! :laugh:

Thanks


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## Colliepoodle

Totally normal puppy behaviour 

Find something else for her to play with - if she's nipping your trousers stop (chances are SHE'LL stop when you stop moving and therefore become less exciting) and give her something else to play with, maybe a nice soft little tuggy you can both have a game with.

Teach her a "drop it" cue.

Read "The Bite Stops Here" (Google for it) - very useful article.

This is such a common "problem" that I really think there should be some sticky threads on here about it - unless I've missed them?


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## Guest

Heres the link http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=64170.0;wap2


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## Katie&Cody

I would say, as the others have - normal behavior, but something to work on training her out of...maybe distract her with a toy?


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## dohaspecial

just to re-inforce what has already been said, i think its completely normal behaviour, deefer has been doing it an awful lot.

I have just started the biting recognition thingy from the 'bite stops here' link. i let him have a little nibble on my hand etc at the moment until he bites a little too hard then do a dramatic 'ooowww that hurt' and walk away, ending his playtime. he is responding very well and generally now he just gums/mauls instead of bites. next stage coming up i think.

i also found that when i started making him sit for everything, food, lead, fuss, cuddles, praise he has become a lot calmer. when he jumps up he gets a NO and generally falls straight into a sit position hoping for some praise!


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## Staceybob

My puppy used to do this. Infact almost every puppy you meet will do this at some stage XD (Especially when they're teething!).

And used to pull a really high pitch "OW!" which would distract her because she thought she really was hurting me. Other than that, I used to give her toys as a replacement for my hands lol, though occassionally she'd lean over from the toy to nip me too.

When she used to get really nippy to the point she was actually hurting then I'd tell her NO! and it would startle her a bit into getting down. Then I'd normally make her sit or work for a few titbits to take her mind off nipping.

It took a few weeks to sort out our puppies nipping but we got there in the end.

Stacey xxx


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## Colliepoodle

dohaspecial said:


> just to re-inforce what has already been said, i think its completely normal behaviour, deefer has been doing it an awful lot.
> 
> I have just started the biting recognition thingy from the 'bite stops here' link. i let him have a little nibble on my hand etc at the moment until he bites a little too hard then do a dramatic 'ooowww that hurt' and walk away, ending his playtime. he is responding very well and generally now he just gums/mauls instead of bites. next stage coming up i think.
> 
> i also found that when i started making him sit for everything, food, lead, fuss, cuddles, praise he has become a lot calmer. when he jumps up he gets a NO and generally falls straight into a sit position hoping for some praise!


Excellent work! :thumbsup:


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## swaff

just to reinforce what everyone else has said, be patient and stick to one method of dealing with it. Our golden retriever has just reached 13 weeks and is now almost cured of it, other than when he gets really wound up. 
it will happen and it wont stop overnight, just don't wear to any expensive trousers round her for a while


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## nightingale

Cloudy Star said:


> Hi, had our little pup Tess for about a week now and she is settling down really well with us, however, she is really nipping at our feet and legs. It tends to be worse when she is excited for example first thing in the morning when she is full of energy. She is a 9 week old Springer Spaniel.
> 
> Has anyone got and advice of techniques to stop her doing this. My feet are gonna get sore otherwise and my trousers will become shorts! :laugh:
> 
> Thanks


hi
I have a welsh Springer spaniel and I got him this weekend and he is 11 weeks old. he is also settling in really well and as you rightly said he is also nipping at my feet toes and also my trousers and especially my silk pyjamas . It is very annoying and it also hurts when he catches the skin.i am also looking for solutions. I keep saying 'no' and i do give him something else to chew on ...but his attention span is so short , he he comes back to my tasty feet ! keep me informed of how you have solved this .
nightingale


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## louellie

I have gone through all of the biting probs stated above with my gorgeous 18wk old cocker spaniel, in fact it was so bad I too asked for help on here. She has chewed everything she can get her paws on and no amount of toys/kongs/bones/yelling/No's did any good - she would stop for a few seconds then start again. My daughter and I were scratched to pieces. 

Apart from this she has been golden - easily toilet trained and no problems ever at night. All I can say is eventually the nipping will stop, maybe not totally,but it will. Tilly still nips occasionally but I must say she has calmed down a little since being able to take her out and release some energy!.


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## emmy_lou73

hi

again - having two dogs i can reassure u its perfectly 'normal' behaviour - our tibetian terrier was a nightmare! We tried it all, the distracting him, the shouting, softly softly! The last resort for us when a friend who said try a high pitch 'yelping' like another dog would do. We only had to do it for a few times and the problem ceased.
Good luck!x


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## classixuk

Our pup (14 week old Bouvier Des Flandres) is doing this too, but oddly, only when I am walking around in the morning or night in my Boxer shorts i.e. legs exposed.

The big problem for us is that he is getting bigger and so the bites are getting higher up. It's always as I am walking away from him, and the nip comes from behind on my legs. This morning he reached my bum and it REALLY hurt!

Being male myself, I am slightly nervous of the fact he might start doing it from the front. :cursing:

Night time toilet visits to the garden are the worst, as I get nipped all around the garden unless I throw some trousers on first.

He'll be able to go out in public for the first time on Sunday (waiting for the inoculation immunity to be ready) so I am hoping that he calms down after finally "mixing with other dogs" and getting tired out in the park!

Is this realistic, or should I find a friendly farmer who fancies a free herding dog once a week on a Sunday to satisfy my dogs desire to herd?


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## Guest

classixuk said:


> Our pup (14 week old Bouvier Des Flandres) is doing this too, but oddly, only when I am walking around in the morning or night in my Boxer shorts i.e. legs exposed.
> 
> The big problem for us is that he is getting bigger and so the bites are getting higher up. It's always as I am walking away from him, and the nip comes from behind on my legs. This morning he reached my bum and it REALLY hurt!
> 
> Being male myself, I am slightly nervous of the fact he might start doing it from the front. :cursing:
> 
> Night time toilet visits to the garden are the worst, as I get nipped all around the garden unless I throw some trousers on first.
> 
> He'll be able to go out in public for the first time on Sunday (waiting for the inoculation immunity to be ready) so I am hoping that he calms down after finally "mixing with other dogs" and getting tired out in the park!
> 
> Is this realistic, or should I find a friendly farmer who fancies a free herding dog once a week on a Sunday to satisfy my dogs desire to herd?


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Purplejellyfish

My little 8 week staffie pup Alfie is exactly the same, especially when he is in full on play mode! I always try to have a toy in hand to divert him. When he starts nipping at feet and hands too much I yelp and ignore him for a few minutes! When he licks nicely he gets heaps of praise. My motto is, ignore bad behaviour and reward good! It is still very early days with Alfie, and if I remember rightly, when my labradors were pups, it takes a few weeks of consistant positive reinforcement, but they do get there in the end. Hope this is of some help...

Jackie


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## hazel pritchard

I was told by dog trainer to yelp when a dog nips,as this is what its litter mates would do.


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## fun4fido

Cloudy Star said:


> Hi, had our little pup Tess for about a week now and she is settling down really well with us, however, she is really nipping at our feet and legs. It tends to be worse when she is excited for example first thing in the morning when she is full of energy. She is a 9 week old Springer Spaniel.
> 
> Has anyone got and advice of techniques to stop her doing this. My feet are gonna get sore otherwise and my trousers will become shorts! :laugh:
> 
> Thanks


You might find this helpful

Teaching Bite Inhibition


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## cocobwoy

Hi 

We also have a English Springer, He is biting allot. The more you say no, the more he bites, you give him is toy to bite and he wants us even more!

We stop playing and ignor him for his biting and he tries harder. We have resorted to putting him in his own space and closing the door, he cries a little and gives us the look , but he calms down, then play resumes.

This is only a quick solution tho and soon enough he forgets his naughty behaviour! 

Let us know what works for you, we are willing to try anything as the puppy is not learning about naughty behaviour. 

Thanks and Good luck


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## FriendlyGinger

I too am experiencing this! Trouser legs and my feet are Nala's favourites. Been grumbling at her and ignoring her which worked today but I know we'll have to do it all over again tomorrow. Good job I am super patient! Everyone's advice on here has been so useful. I am soooo glad I found this site! You have kept me sane!


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## susiejones

i'm on the verge of getting a pup. little bit worried about it being a little 'nipper' so some good advice here - thanks


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## Cuddypuppy

Yep, I can sympathise with you on this one. Our pug puppy has been with us for 3 days and is very nippy at times. We are trying to be consistent and telling her no and distracting her with toys. Good luck!


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## davehyde

oh the memories lol.
just when you think they ill never stop the suddenly do lol.

land sharks the little buggas.

my retriever now grabs my arm or hand so gently and leads me to where he wants me to go usually his toy cupboard lol.

trying to teach him to open it himself.

it will get better and when they get there adult teeth it will stop altogether if you continue as you are doing.

teething will be a nightmare i expect, plenty of frozen towels to suck on.


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## Stellabelly

Our pup (14 week old Bouvier Des Flandres) is doing this too, but oddly, only when I am walking around in the morning or night in my Boxer shorts i.e. legs exposed.

The big problem for us is that he is getting bigger and so the bites are getting higher up. It's always as I am walking away from him, and the nip comes from behind on my legs. This morning he reached my bum and it REALLY hurt!

Being male myself, I am slightly nervous of the fact he might start doing it from the front.

Night time toilet visits to the garden are the worst, as I get nipped all around the garden unless I throw some trousers on first.

He'll be able to go out in public for the first time on Sunday (waiting for the inoculation immunity to be ready) so I am hoping that he calms down after finally "mixing with other dogs" and getting tired out in the park!

Is this realistic, or should I find a friendly farmer who fancies a free herding dog once a week on a Sunday to satisfy my dogs desire to herd?
Reply With Quote

That is so funny (though I know it's not really)


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## Dylan & Daisy

*When pups biting just stand still and look upwards, totally ignore him/her and he/she will stop, if you move your feet etc they assume your playing so carry on. Keep doing this until they eventually give up altogether.*
*My puppy used to bite my feet and i used this technique and found it very effective.*
*Puppies hate to be ignored.*

*This was the best advice i was given. Good Luck!*


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## Arby

Our 10 week old wheaten terrier is a jekyl and hyde monster, cute as a button sometimes but nasty at others. He doesnt just nip he sometimes snaps aggressively and often draws blood. Yelping worked for a day or two, but now that just eggs him on, I think he might be a bit of a bully! I've resorted to playing the dominant mother role, growling and restraining him, probably not good but we are at a bit of a loss otherwise. He has his first puppy class tomorrow, hoping that will help, he is a lovely dog at times but neither of us like him much at the moment! Its worse when he is hungry, but its not acceptable at any time. We are also going to start with the bitter apple spray. Its possibly being made worse by my partner and I not being consistent. Perhaps we need a clearer strategy? Is it sensible to initially allow mouthing but try restrict biting? Maybe we are confusing and frustrating him with a no bite at all policy? He sometimes seems to no know what to do with himself.


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## Cuddypuppy

Arby said:


> Our 10 week old wheaten terrier is a jekyl and hyde monster, cute as a button sometimes but nasty at others. He doesnt just nip he sometimes snaps aggressively and often draws blood. Yelping worked for a day or two, but now that just eggs him on, I think he might be a bit of a bully! I've resorted to playing the dominant mother role, growling and restraining him, probably not good but we are at a bit of a loss otherwise. He has his first puppy class tomorrow, hoping that will help, he is a lovely dog at times but neither of us like him much at the moment! Its worse when he is hungry, but its not acceptable at any time. We are also going to start with the bitter apple spray. Its possibly being made worse by my partner and I not being consistent. Perhaps we need a clearer strategy? Is it sensible to initially allow mouthing but try restrict biting? Maybe we are confusing and frustrating him with a no bite at all policy? He sometimes seems to no know what to do with himself.


I totally agree with the jekyll and hyde comment. We have a 10 week old pug and she is as sweet as apple pie, but turns into a biting gremlin when she gets over excited. I must admit, I will be glad when she grows out of the nipping


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## DebsPink

Arby said:


> Our 10 week old wheaten terrier is a jekyl and hyde monster, cute as a button sometimes but nasty at others. He doesnt just nip he sometimes snaps aggressively and often draws blood. Yelping worked for a day or two, but now that just eggs him on, I think he might be a bit of a bully!


Our 9 week old Jack Russell is the same. She can be so loving and docile and loves to be cuddled and stroked, but other times she's like a maniac. She goes for everyones shoelaces and trousers when they come in and no amount of "leave it", cajoling, offering toys etc can stop it. It escalates and she starts growling and nipping anyone who comes near. We too use the time out - we have a dog pen in the lounge. This seems to work to calm her down - until the next time! We've been trying the bite inhibition thing too but she doesn't seem to get it either, the yelping just winds her up more!


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## Arby

glad to hear its not just our dog then  He has got much better the last two days, I think he was getting over tired so now he goes to bed earlier


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## mookie&me

So glad to hear it's not just Mookie 

She's 11 weeks old and in the last week has taken to going for my hands. My stern 'off' gets a terrier-like grip and a growl, and yelping makes her wag her tail and go again. 

It's my first puppy so I know I'm learning probably more than her right now. My new strategy involves putting a pen on the deck outside so she gets a one 'ack-ack' warning then in to the pen till she calms down. Time will tell if this works...

Last night I tried something I read online about asserting pack-leader status: I blocked her from her food until she was calm/submissive. Went well until I couldn't work out when she was actually calm/submissive... Does that mean she sits? Cos she does beautifully! Or does it mean she has to roll over and be 'fully' submissive? :001_unsure:

She is a mini schnauzer with a big brain and crafty ideas. She has been so great so far, but making me want to cry lately 

All help gratefully received.
Olivia


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## SmudgeAllart

So glad to hear that we are not the only ones with a puppy like this. He is so good the majority of time but then just seems to get over-excited. We are at the moment telling him no then ignoring him until he seems calm. This seems to be having limited success. I did read somewhere that just when you think they will never get it, they suddenly getting it. Hoping this will happen with us.
Sorry I don't have much solid advice, but watching this thread with interest.

First puppy training tonight, if they have any good suggestions I will let you know.

Karen


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## Purplejellyfish

I would never block my puppy from his food in order to gain 'dominance'. You risk the dog becoming possesive with his food which could lead to aggression and serious biting. 

Playbiting in puppies is not a 'dominance' issue. It is how puppies interact with the world. They need guidance on what is acceptable to bite, and what is not. When my 15 week stafford puppy starts to playbite my hand, I just say no, then immediately offer him a toy to bite instead. This is not, as some people think, rewarding him for biting, it is teaching him what he is allowed to bite. I make sure there are a variety of toys within easy reach in every room that Alfie has access too.

Alfie is much better with playbiting than he used to be, so I guess this method is working for us. 

Good luck


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## Guest

mookie&me said:


> So glad to hear it's not just Mookie
> 
> She's 11 weeks old and in the last week has taken to going for my hands. My stern 'off' gets a terrier-like grip and a growl, and yelping makes her wag her tail and go again.
> 
> It's my first puppy so I know I'm learning probably more than her right now. My new strategy involves putting a pen on the deck outside so she gets a one 'ack-ack' warning then in to the pen till she calms down. Time will tell if this works...
> 
> Last night I tried something I read online about asserting pack-leader status: I blocked her from her food until she was calm/submissive. Went well until I couldn't work out when she was actually calm/submissive... Does that mean she sits? Cos she does beautifully! Or does it mean she has to roll over and be 'fully' submissive? :001_unsure:
> 
> She is a mini schnauzer with a big brain and crafty ideas. She has been so great so far, but making me want to cry lately
> 
> All help gratefully received.
> Olivia


I think it's perfectly acceptable to get your puppy to sit and wait for very short periods until instructed to eat but blocking a dog from it's food is just asking for confrontation.


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## mookie&me

Hi PurpleJellyFish,

I agree, I don't think I'm going to use that approach again. I think it confused her.

I understand that puppies use their mouths to explore the world, but her growling and biting seems to be more than just nipping and playing. She bit two of my friends when they came round (maybe overtired? loving the attention?) and I'm starting to get my neighbour's 5 year old son to come over to play with her but worried she'll go for him too.

I know it's not her fault - I need to find the trigger, but it's so demoralising sometimes! Am going with the ignoring approach and will just have to be patient.

Thanks for the support!


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## Arby

Arby is getting better, we have developed a scale of reactions.

1. Say no and toy replacement (ocasional tap on the nose); sometimes works, but sometimes he really wants flesh so we then
2. Walk away and ignore; again, sometimes works, but sometimes he continues to bite ankles, trousers and toes even with you back turned to him so then its
3. Exlude him from the pack by putting him outside on his own. Leave him 30 secs - 2 mins (dependening on the offence), but only let him back when he is calm. 

This works every time, now he often stops when i just head to the door to exclude him. However, he now recognises when he is going to be excluded and runs off and hides under the table and barks. Then we use a hissing corrector devise to break the behaviour, after learning myself that he likes me chasing him under the table! Any loud noise will generally work, but its not ideal, not sure whether to still put him out then. 

I think he is getting there, but its still tough. He is generally replacing biting with barking when he knows biting is wrong. Now how to deal with that!? I have to calm myself when correcting and not get too cross, its tough when a puppy is snapping at your face. He is strangely agressive/submissive, he also has a submissive urination problem so I wonder if I've been too tough on him.


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## lemmsy

Arby said:


> Arby is getting better, we have developed a scale of reactions.
> 
> 1. Say no and toy replacement (ocasional tap on the nose); sometimes works, but sometimes he really wants flesh so we then
> 2. Walk away and ignore; again, sometimes works, but sometimes he continues to bite ankles, trousers and toes even with you back turned to him so then its
> 3. Exlude him from the pack by putting him outside on his own. Leave him 30 secs - 2 mins (dependening on the offence), but only let him back when he is calm.
> 
> This works every time, now he often stops when i just head to the door to exclude him. However, he now recognises when he is going to be excluded and runs off and hides under the table and barks. Then we use a hissing corrector devise to break the behaviour, after learning myself that he likes me chasing him under the table! Any loud noise will generally work, but its not ideal, not sure whether to still put him out then.
> 
> I think he is getting there, but its still tough. He is generally replacing biting with barking when he knows biting is wrong. Now how to deal with that!? I have to calm myself when correcting and not get too cross, its tough when a puppy is snapping at your face. He is strangely agressive/submissive, he also has a submissive urination problem so I wonder if I've been too tough on him.


This is a hard one. You seem to be doing well. 
Personally though I'd scrap stage 1 as you said this only "sometimes works"



> 1. Say no and toy replacement (ocasional tap on the nose); sometimes works, but sometimes he really wants flesh so we then


I'd try to be 100% consistent with the last two and you'll definately get there.

It's hard work- I can sympathise


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## pink2855

as it is over shadowing our enjoyment ov this little bun


Cloudy Star said:


> Hi, had our little pup Tess for about a week now and she is settling down really well with us, however, she is really nipping at our feet and legs. It tends to be worse when she is excited for example first thing in the morning when she is full of energy. She is a 9 week old Springer Spaniel.
> 
> Has anyone got and advice of techniques to stop her doing this. My feet are gonna get sore otherwise and my trousers will become shorts! :laugh:
> 
> Thanks


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## Arby

lemmsy said:


> This is a hard one. You seem to be doing well.
> Personally though I'd scrap stage 1 as you said this only "sometimes works"
> 
> I'd try to be 100% consistent with the last two and you'll definately get there.
> 
> It's hard work- I can sympathise


thanks, we will do it less but the problem I have is differentiating between "mouthing" and biting, often seems a fine line between them. Its seems a bit harsh to be militant about any mouth on flesh contact when playing with the pup (which is when we use toy replacement), or am I being too soft? Got a bit worse the last couple of days, two steps forward, one step back! Also he has now learnt to bark when he knows biting is not getting the desired response. So I need to look up a new thread *sigh* Thanks for the feedback though, its useful to be able to express our frustration!


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## laylay

we have a 14 wk old cocker.

As you have said this issue and the worry of it being more aggressive than simply play biting is overshadowing our enjoyment of an otherwise very bright and sweet dog.

Things have improved but still this snapping occurs as soon as we play or with any excitement, stopping us from being able to play as much as we would like.

The only thing that works is time out at which point she almost immediatly wees in the kitchen just the other side of the gate!!!! Getting instant attention before she walks wee all around the kitchen. HELP


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## cdewar

Hello all

I'm glad I joined this forum if only for the information I have just read about puppies nipping. Sal my new German Shepherd has started doing the same thing while playing and it is quite sharp. I thought it might be too physical playing with her but it seems most dogs do it.

I'll try giving a different toy to play with when it happens. Will look at exclusion for a short time if that does not work. (I'm a bit reluctant on this though as I want to reward good behaviour and not punish bad behaviour, will have to see.)

I will hope it just goes away - but I will keep reading this topic to see if any more ideas come forward.

CD

PS just happened again, wasn't playing this time.


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## Nicky & Ian

Our pup lab used to do that alot and we found the best way to make her stop was to either walk away or put her in another room when she kept biting.
We also had the air blower behaviour toy and that worked quite well when she used to bite our feet.


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## Colliepoodle

Can I just add a note about yelping when a puppy nips? I've just been reminded of it on another forum and it's worth mentioning:

Terrier breeds are often more wound up if you emit a high-pitched yelp/squeak - think of the noise a rat makes  A deeper "OW!!" and time-out might be more effective.


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## laurawhitehouse

hi, we have had our labrador puppy for just over a week now and are having the same problems, we have a 2yr old daughter aswell and 2 be honest it is wearing us down a little, let me now if u get any god tips, i have been trailing through internet sites and dont know what is the best route 2 take 2 stop the biting!!!


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## DebsPink

laurawhitehouse said:


> hi, we have had our labrador puppy for just over a week now and are having the same problems, we have a 2yr old daughter aswell and 2 be honest it is wearing us down a little, let me now if u get any god tips, i have been trailing through internet sites and dont know what is the best route 2 take 2 stop the biting!!!


I find the best thing is to be as boring as possible when she is like that. I also do the "walk in the room, ignore her for a few minutes, then say hello once she's settled" thing. This seems to work. She doesn't nip me as much as she still does my OH who doesn't get this yet.


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## carole66

dohaspecial said:


> just to re-inforce what has already been said, i think its completely normal behaviour, deefer has been doing it an awful lot.
> 
> I have just started the biting recognition thingy from the 'bite stops here' link. i let him have a little nibble on my hand etc at the moment until he bites a little too hard then do a dramatic 'ooowww that hurt' and walk away, ending his playtime. he is responding very well and generally now he just gums/mauls instead of bites. next stage coming up i think.
> 
> i also found that when i started making him sit for everything, food, lead, fuss, cuddles, praise he has become a lot calmer. when he jumps up he gets a NO and generally falls straight into a sit position hoping for some praise!


Great advice here, we have a 10 week old sprocker and we had a trainer recommend to use to hold some food between your curled fingers (ie, nothing pointing out to bite!) and only release it if it licks or is gentle. If he bites then do the 'ow' thing and don't let him have the treat. Hopefully it will work!


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## rsturdy

We have had Maisy, our beagle puppy a week now, and like everyone we too our being eaten alive . We are trying the yelp and ignore but only seems to work sometimes. Replacing with a toy doesn't work at all she ignores the toy and goes for the hand! Will try excluding her as mentioned above and see how we get on! Any other tips happily received!


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## RohanCarthy

Rohan is 13 weeks tomorrow and a lab.

His biting/mouthing has gotten much better and is soley directed at myself and my husband. Everyone else just receives licks!
However when he is excited, or in 'the zone ' as we call it, No amount of walking away, saying no, or toy replacement works. he just wants to bite our hands!
We tried putting him out/behind baby gates etc but he just starts chewing whatever he can find in the area we have put him in.

He had his first puppy training class last week and a couple of the other puppies tried to bite the instructer. She gave them a short/sharp yank on their collar. 
We tried this at home by putting Rohan's collar on when the behaviour started and it seems to do the trick, the collar alone seems to switch his mind onto something else. If he bites we give a quick pull on the collar and get him to sit. It's not 100% effective but it is definitely the best method we have found. His collar is just a standard buckle one. (definitely not a choke chain or the such), the movement just distracts him rather than hurting him in anyway.
Sorry for the length of the post but I know how frustrating it is when nothing seems to work and boy are those little teeth sharp!


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## Tess4dog

Hello-Through this forum I had the strength and patience to go through terrible biting by our collie tess-she is now nearly 6 months and although she will still 'mouth/nip' when excited she KNOWS she should not do it. At all times remain clam, turn your back and be still. 
There is some wonderful advice given here-you must decide which you will adopt and stick to it. 
We just have a whole shed load of other problems now like deficiency!!but the biting has stopped.


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## laylay

rsturdy said:


> We have had Maisy, our beagle puppy a week now, and like everyone we too our being eaten alive . We are trying the yelp and ignore but only seems to work sometimes. Replacing with a toy doesn't work at all she ignores the toy and goes for the hand! Will try excluding her as mentioned above and see how we get on! Any other tips happily received!


When we excluded she weed or pooed so try and get her outside first and use this teqnique when you know it will be safe.

Ours was a ferocius nibbler / snapper and i could see no end except a dog biting!!

She is now 4 1/2 months and beginning to 'get it' when she is let out of her cage in the morning she is now picking up a toy herself, so we can say hello safely. She is starting to lick when a hand is near rather than nip, thank goodness.

There is light at the end of the tunnel you no need consistancy but hang in there


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## rsturdy

Any more advice would be highly welcomed as this morning we had an "incident" shall we say. She was playing with the OH and i came out of the shower, she proceeded to chase my feet which is quite normal but today she took a huge nip at my ankle and really cut into the skin! Feel like nothing is working please help


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## Tess4dog

Don't despair-I have had blood running down both my legs. Tess would actually take a flying leap at me. She can now focus this enery to a football thank goodness. They are confused. Their teeth hurt. I went to our local butcher and got two huge thigh bones. I gave them raw. It looked like she'd been in a massacre by the time she'd finished but it really calmed her down. Also when they were picked clean I pushed peanut butter in them she still spends hours licking them.


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## RohanCarthy

I've also noticed that Rohan is pretty 'time specific' with his biting.

Usually before his breakfast in the mornings and late at night before bed.

If he starts at night I take him for a quick walk around the block just to burn off some energy. In the mornings he calms down after breakfast. He isn't making a correlation between the biting and the two events as I am making sure I walk away from him for a bit first.
It might be worth just making a note of the worst times to give yourself a clearer picture of triggers.

It definitely helped me to take a step back and be a little more analytical about it as it took away the feeling of 'my puppy hates me', and the frustration of all of the biting.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Just resurecting this sticky as it has some useful tips in it


----------



## jimsan12

Hello,

You should try these tips to stop your puppy nipping---

1-Use up some of your dog's energy.Start in the morning with a long walk or run.

2- If possible begin your training early ,when your puppy is 6 weeks old.

3-Teach your puppy that biting or nipping hurts you. When he bites,give a sharp 

"no!" or "ouch!" or even a yelp like a dog would make.

4-Remove your hand slowly and give your puppy a toy that he can chew on 

without damage.

5-Enroll your puppy in an obedience class where he can socialize with other 

dogs when he is about 6 months old.


----------



## pets-life

You might find some articles here of interest to you.

Articles On Dogs Training


----------



## Nonnie

jimsan12 said:


> 5-Enroll your puppy in an obedience class where he can socialize with other
> 
> dogs when he is about 6 months old.


Great advice. But socialisation should be started as early as possible.


----------



## rickwill12

Hi,

Dogs and puppies nipping for a number of reasons and it is important to

keep in mind that your puppy is not nipping to spite you. it can be a hard 

habit to stop.If you don't clearly communicate to your dog that, this is bad 

habit, he won't even realize that he is doing anything wrong.So you should

train your dog at home or enroll him in social behavior classes.


----------



## mookie&me

I have some good news on Mookie. She was a very bitey puppy and I'd tried everything to try to stop it. I was close to tears so many times and it genuinely stopped me fully enjoying her puppyhood.

I took her back to her breeder while I was away for 2 weeks, where she lived with other puppies of her age and surrounded by adult dogs. I have NO idea what happened, but since I picked her up last Sunday, she has not bitten once!!! She licks and wags her tail and paws me, and even mouths me (which she didn't ever do before) but not one bite.

I don't know what to deduce from this other than a) being round 'big' dogs she realised she had to grow up b) being with other dogs taught her that biting stops play. The breeder noticed she'd stopped biting after a few days...

Ultimately, could it be that puppies just 'grow out of it'? Or being round other dogs helps more than being on their own?

You decide..


----------



## buttercupwafflepants

It has been really reassuring to read that other people are going through the same issues as us. We have a 9wk old cocker spaniel puppy who has started to savage and it has been really depressing.....had made sure to read lots before we got our puppy and used the "yelp" method and replacing with something a toy but to no avail! Yelping seems to make him more intent - if you throw a toy to distract him, he ignores it and if you try and give him a toy he sees it as an opportunity to dive at you even more! 

It is really difficult not to feel emotional and remain calm despite best plans.
It's also really hard to know which training methods to follow - the "no bite" advice sounds fantastic but a bit like baby advice books before children it is more difficult to implement if you have a dog that doesn't seem to respond in the required manner.

My OH thinks we should be going down the "mother dog" type route and growling at him and giving him a shake on the ruff of his neck but I remain unconvinced.

I am trying to persist with No, followed by replacing with a toy and ignoring and seem to always end up with the last resort of removing either him or me.....not convinced any of it is working.

Does anyone have any success stories from a similar situation? Hope I will look back on this stage and laugh!


----------



## Birdie Wife

Hi buttercupwafflepants,

Cockers can be particularly mouthy apparently - I got my cocker pup at 8 weeks old and in some ways she has been so easy to train, being so intelligent, but in others she is so stubborn... like the play biting. She is now just over six months and still mouths, but only occasionally with pressure. 

My OH likes to play rough with her and his hands would often be bleeding - I got quite cross with him because he didn't tell her to stop in time, and I was trying to teach her to bite more and more softly. So I think it's taken longer that it should have done because of that, but she's definitely getting the idea, and the biggest thing I think that really gave her the hint that it wasn't on was withdrawing attention from her, or if she kept on doing it then she went out of the room for a few minutes. She loves being around people and getting affection, so being excluded worked really well, and I didn't have to do it very often for her to start to understand the consequences of ignoring "ow" or "no".

There is light at the end of that dark tunnel, trust me!


----------



## RAINYBOW

Birdie Wife said:


> Hi buttercupwafflepants,
> 
> Cockers can be particularly mouthy apparently - I got my cocker pup at 8 weeks old and in some ways she has been so easy to train, being so intelligent, but in others she is so stubborn... like the play biting. She is now just over six months and still mouths, but only occasionally with pressure.
> 
> My OH likes to play rough with her and his hands would often be bleeding - I got quite cross with him because he didn't tell her to stop in time, and I was trying to teach her to bite more and more softly. So I think it's taken longer that it should have done because of that, but she's definitely getting the idea, and the biggest thing I think that really gave her the hint that it wasn't on was withdrawing attention from her, or if she kept on doing it then she went out of the room for a few minutes. She loves being around people and getting affection, so being excluded worked really well, and I didn't have to do it very often for her to start to understand the consequences of ignoring "ow" or "no".
> 
> There is light at the end of that dark tunnel, trust me!


Totally agree, this was what finally seemed to give my cocker the message.

He doesn't mouth at all now at 10 months


----------



## buttercupwafflepants

Thanks Birdiewife & Rainbow - good to know there is some light at the end of this seemingly long tunnel! My hands are fairly shredded again this morning - he seems to be having a particularly "hyper" day despite trying to wear him out with some training and playing. It is strange how much this puppy phase reminds me of my children being small - trying to adhere to advice and schedules and do the best, with very mixed results! It is lucky he is so gorgeous!


----------



## RAINYBOW

buttercupwafflepants said:


> Thanks Birdiewife & Rainbow - good to know there is some light at the end of this seemingly long tunnel! My hands are fairly shredded again this morning - he seems to be having a particularly "hyper" day despite trying to wear him out with some training and playing. It is strange how much this puppy phase reminds me of my children being small - trying to adhere to advice and schedules and do the best, with very mixed results! It is lucky he is so gorgeous!


It's the only reason they survive


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## whigmaleerie

Hi 

When my boarder collie was a puppy he did this when he didnt get his own way, we stoped this by putting a bit of yogurt on our hand and when he did it we carmed him down and told him to be gentle when likking the yogurt, worked a treat and he stoped nipping straight away, incedently he is now 3 and loves youguts what ever flaviour


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## sarybeagle

My 10 week old beagle has suddenly (almost over night) gone from a few nips to full on biting and today she actually drawn blood from me  

I tried the yelping but that actually seemed to excite her even more. I am saying quite loud and low no which initially stopped the biting but today she actually turned and jumped at my face when I said it. 

I take her to the kitchen where she has timeout for up to 5 mins depending how quickly she settles down but now when I pick her up to take her she is continuing to bite me and this is when she punctured the skin on my hand. 

When she is good and licks and plays nicely she gets lots of praise and treats its just the biting is now taking over the play-she wont take any interest on a toy instead of a hand. 

Just wondered is there something I am doing wrong or do I continue with removing her and praising the good play? I have just returned her straight to the kitchen after 5 mins as the first thing she did on coming back in was bite my son who is sick on the sofa 

Many thanks xxxxxx


----------



## Colliepoodle

sarybeagle said:


> My 10 week old beagle has suddenly (almost over night) gone from a few nips to full on biting and today she actually drawn blood from me
> 
> *I tried the yelping but that actually seemed to excite her even more.* I am saying quite loud and low no which initially stopped the biting but today she actually turned and jumped at my face when I said it.
> 
> I take her to the kitchen where she has timeout for up to 5 mins depending how quickly she settles down but now when I pick her up to take her she is continuing to bite me and this is when she punctured the skin on my hand.
> 
> When she is good and licks and plays nicely she gets lots of praise and treats its just the biting is now taking over the play-she wont take any interest on a toy instead of a hand.
> 
> Just wondered is there something I am doing wrong or do I continue with removing her and praising the good play? I have just returned her straight to the kitchen after 5 mins as the first thing she did on coming back in was bite my son who is sick on the sofa
> 
> Many thanks xxxxxx


Some dogs DO get more excited by high-pitched yelps - it's one thing to be wary of, particularly if your dog is a type bred to kill rats and/or other squeaky things


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## littlefairy

Storm is a 12 week old Alaskan Malamute and most of the time he is so gentle and loving, but when he is overtired he gets very nippy and growly. Yelping and saying no just makes him worse, I have found giving him "time out" in his crate for 5 mins and ignoring him while he is in there seems to work to calm him down.
My father in law has not helped by "tapping" Storm on the nose when he gets like this, despite me telling him not to :mad2:
I think the whole family has to be consistant in their methods of handling nipping puppies or the poor puppy will just be confused :frown2:


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## sarybeagle

Ok Bella is getting worse?? Im making sure I am consistant with my behaviour towards her-I remove her straight away from the room with 1 firm no and then place her in the kitchen behind the gate and I dont speak to her again after the inital no. The time it takes her to settle after being placed in here is also getting longer-she whines which she has never done before except for her first night her and generally gets herself more and more wound up. 

Today she has just really growled and bitten me when I came in and sat down on the sofa after letting her out for the loo. She wasnt hyper, playing just walking back on the room and bang lunged. 

I also noticed today during our training session she became over excited about having the reward and began jumping on me trying to get the treat off me, where as before she was very well behaved and would sit, lie on command and wait for the treat. 

Food hasnt changed, meal times the same, her daily routine is still the same?? I really dont know where Im going wrong im following all advice and like I said she has been really very good but im feeling a bit lost at the moment.


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## leahsarah206

we had a similar problem with one of our dogs, we were told its totally normal, they do it with their siblings when playing as a pup, we were told to yelp dramatically as a dogs would , it takes a little while but they get the message. Sometimes walk away too, they realise that playtime is over
hope this helps


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## Foxman

Nipping is natural behaviors, just like human infants teething. When a puppy is between two and six moths of age, they can be stopped!










Chewing and nipping is investigative behavior. It is how they learn about their world and it is completely normal. But it is important to

direct the puppy to chewing appropriate items. Then i want to say your puppy needs specially designed and safe pet toys, which can

keep him happily occupied for a long time.


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## Liz1

Hi I Am new to this site and so relieved to find out that this is normal behaviour, starting to think that I had the most vicious dog in the world, even though deep down I knew it is normal behaviour as had researched getting puppy for many years and expected it.. We have an 8 and a half week old lab, she is absolutely gorgeous and is really good at toileting, eating sleeping etc but her nipping is her down side. Have followed the tips of shouting no, down etc, saying ow out loud so she knows she has hurt us and also ignoring her but the main problem is once she has hold she won't let go. Got a kong toy yesterday and hoping to distract her with that. How long does this phase usually last, we have 3 children and obviously don't leave them alone with her, they quite nervous that she will bite and hurt them, although youngest two don't really fuss her too much just eldest as she dog mad and has received few nipps on end of pjs and toes.


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## debweb

thats some acheivement if thats your only problem! my 9 week old lurcher can't get to grips with toilet training, sleeping at night, as well as biting/chewing everything (including my other 2 dogs) in sight. I found a loud squeal works best, and she just mouths me now, but she's making the other 2 dogs lives a misery at the moment, but they are being brill. just hang on to the thought 'it's just a phase', at least dogs get through them quicker than kids!


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## Liz1

Hi thanks for your reply and good luck with your lurcher. she seems to get worse with a loud yelp, a firm no and then ignoring her is working a bit better, she is off to first puppy party this week so maybe some canine socialisation will help !! fingers crossed


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## Netta10

Hi, we have a Golden Cocker Spaniel who is just 12 weeks and she is nipping. Our legs, feet anywhere really. If I tell her off (and I point my finger which is a big mistake!) she just does it more. We give her her toys but she is not interested. We have tried shouting NO and NAUGHTY but she thinks its a game. We will keep on as persistance is the key and hopefully very soon she will get the message!


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## sarybeagle

Just wanted to say Bellas biting is getting better (shes now 14 weeks) its mostly when she is over excited or tired she gets snappy. 

Im hoping she will keep biting less and less as other that she is a smashing pup.


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## victoriaj

i'm sure that this is something many of you won't agree with but i purchased a book called how to train your beagle and it states in it that if they are biting very hard on your hand and nothing else works then gently squeeze their top lip together with your thumb and forefinger using the hand they are biting until they let go. they soon learn that by biting they will get discomfort and it stops them from doing it. you do not pinch hard or hurt them you just apply a little bit of pressure.


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## nat1979

nic b said:


> Heres the link The Bite Stops Here


I tryed this link it did not work


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## cherr

Hi i have a 7 week old springer spaniel and she is doing exactly the same going for my feet and bottom of trousers everytime i walk and even sometimes when im sitting down.
Ive tried everything with her but she just ignores me and she can become quite vicious towards me and my partner.

Anyone got any other ideas?


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## cpostelwait31

Nipping could really develop into rough playing... Before when my dog starts nipping I just hold his mouth for a while and he's quite getting the hint that nipping isn't good, and I am glad that he stopped nipping after many times of being held at mouth...


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## lovespringerspaniels.com

Hi There 
Congrats on your new Springer Pup, welcome to a wonderful world

Nipping is common behavior, so what I do with all my springer pups when they nip is let out a very loud EEIIYYEEEEEEEE and stop whatever fun they were having ege playing etc, and I get up an walk away. Soon they associate that behavior with the end of attention and a Springer hates that.

Here is some Springer Puppy info and General Springer Stuff

Springer Spaniel Puppies


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## laylay

To all those struggling hang in there.
Our cocker was a nightmare we have holes in clothes to prove it!!!

The only thing that worked was time out which had to be outside as she would wee!!!

She is now 6 months, adorable and only mouthing at times of play when a toy has not been given and when grooming.

I don't think the time out curred it, but i guess it gave the impression that this was not acceptable.

Like others have said its a phase that spoiled our enjoyment of her early months as cuddles were impossible!

But we're making up for it:wink:


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## rvieyra

Hi
I can completly understand your problem, when we got bailey our choc lab, I thought at one point that i had brought the only nasty lab pup to be born ever!!! She was like a crocodile sometimes, i looked on all the forums and everyone seemed to say the same thing. The loud ouch and walking away worked, sometimes!! other times it just made her more excited. I have to say the thing that helped the most was when she went to doggy day care, the other dogs soon taught her what was too hard. She pretty much stopped nipping in a week. She is 5 months now and very soft in the mouth. Thank goodness, my hands and arms looked dreadful. It will end, you just have to be really strict with saying no and moving away from them. :smile5:

Goodluck


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## StBernardMummy

My new pup Murphy nips a little when were playing and has taken a dislike to my favourite oversized jumped which he fights with whether I'm wearing it or not! I know he's only playing but it can be quite painful, his little baby teeth are like needles! I've found getting him one of those rope tuggy toys distracts him from eating my jumper. 

Thank you for the links though. They will come in very handy  

Leanne x


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## stigDarley

Cloudy Star said:


> Hi, had our little pup Tess for about a week now and she is settling down really well with us, however, she is really nipping at our feet and legs. It tends to be worse when she is excited for example first thing in the morning when she is full of energy. She is a 9 week old Springer Spaniel.
> 
> Has anyone got and advice of techniques to stop her doing this. My feet are gonna get sore otherwise and my trousers will become shorts! :laugh:
> 
> Thanks


I have a 3 nearly 4 month Akita X German shep puppy. We rescued her at 9 weeks and she was also a nipper. I have to admit that I did a Dog whisper type bite on her. Which is to nip her very very lightly with you hand, on her back quarter. It symilates mum nipping. As trying to give her other things to do is ignoring the dominace issue. You need to be very clearly "the pack leader" I also have a 11 month dobe and he's a fantastic dog. The Akita is now no longer nipping. She's alot better behaved.

I really do think what Ceaser has to say makes alot of sense!


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## stigDarley

Colliepoodle said:


> Totally normal puppy behaviour
> 
> Find something else for her to play with - if she's nipping your trousers stop (chances are SHE'LL stop when you stop moving and therefore become less exciting) and give her something else to play with, maybe a nice soft little tuggy you can both have a game with.
> 
> Teach her a "drop it" cue.
> 
> Read "The Bite Stops Here" (Google for it) - very useful article.
> 
> This is such a common "problem" that I really think there should be some sticky threads on here about it - unless I've missed them?


You want to be careful playing tuggy with puppies, as again its a dominace game. Also the roots in there teeth are not fully grown until there older!


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## Amber1612

Hi all

I am so relieved to read this thread! We have a young pup (Mum died) she is 7.5 weeks old now, cross American Bulldog and Mastiff and although she is a clever girl and can be loving the biting is reallllly getting me down.

Tried the yelping, no, dominating her, offering a toy in place of me but if she is in one of those moods it does not matter. I am sure that she is not aggressive and it is all puppy play but sometimes she is relentless. Comes at me time and time again, growling, barking snapping and you all know how much it hurts when they chomp down. She is going to be going to obedience classes and I know that she will get it but it has made me feel disappointment about the new pup I suppose!

Reading all the posts here it sounds like there are alot of us in the same position with lots of little puncture wounds and scratches!!

Fingers crossed that this phase passes quickly! I am more worried about damage she might do to my girls (13 and 6)!

Amber


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## luvmydogs

I love Ian Dunbar. Do you have any more refs to his stuff please?


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## Clare7435

I'm going through this with Penny right now, she doesn't nip, just thinks everything that moves is a chew toy, usually everything that moves on me, or even Fizz's legs will do much to Fizz's annoyence.
The Dogs have an old wicker dog bed full of toys, balls, chews, a wooden roling pin is the fave...oh and a teething blanket from tesco baby dept with a bears head in the middle and knoted ends, they're spoilt rotton lol....but when she stars the whole knarling thing I get her basket and empty the entire contents on the floor and stick her in the middle, works well...she spends ages chewing, bringing me things and generally tiring herself out xx


----------



## Anakat

laylay said:


> To all those struggling hang in there.
> Our cocker was a nightmare we have holes in clothes to prove it!!!
> 
> The only thing that worked was time out which had to be outside as she would wee!!!
> 
> She is now 6 months, adorable and only mouthing at times of play when a toy has not been given and when grooming.
> 
> I don't think the time out curred it, but i guess it gave the impression that this was not acceptable.
> 
> Like others have said its a phase that spoiled our enjoyment of her early months as cuddles were impossible!
> 
> But we're making up for it:wink:


It was good to read this as i'm a little at my wits end with our 12 week cocker boy - who can be so easy when out and about, but very bitey (hard) especially towards my hands and arms and my daughters feet. We have tried mimicking a dogs cry, saying no and squirting with water - also distracting him with toys. but he doesn't seem to get that this is not on.

He has a lot of energy and tends to bite at these times. We have lots of toys and things for him to safely bite/chew - any advice please would be most welcome! p.s. It's almost as if he's trying to dominate and it's worrying me because of my 4 year old daughter.


----------



## RAINYBOW

Anakat said:


> It was good to read this as i'm a little at my wits end with our 12 week cocker boy - who can be so easy when out and about, but very bitey (hard) especially towards my hands and arms and my daughters feet. We have tried mimicking a dogs cry, saying no and squirting with water - also distracting him with toys. but he doesn't seem to get that this is not on.
> 
> He has a lot of energy and tends to bite at these times. We have lots of toys and things for him to safely bite/chew - any advice please would be most welcome! p.s. It's almost as if he's trying to dominate and it's worrying me because of my 4 year old daughter.


I think cockers can be a beggar for this. Mine is over a year now but i remember thinking the nipping would never end and worrying about it (i have a 3 and 6 year old)

I used the timeout on him too as everything else just made him more excitable and bitey so the timeout just gave everyone a chance to calm down a bit .

A Consistent and persistent approach is the only think that works in the end but it is generally just a phase.

Get your little one involved in training ASAP, even if it's just little things like making pup sit with a treat :wink: and ensure that high value treats (like bones or hide chews, pigs ears etc, are never given while your child has access to the pup )

A great book to buy is The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey


----------



## alysonandhedley

Moderators!!

I think this sticky needs a bit of tidying up. It might be me but the early links dont work anymore, so if you refer a new forum member to this they might get a bit frustrated trawling through and not finding any working links. I just revisited it and had problems.


----------



## RAINYBOW

alysonandhedley said:


> Moderators!!
> 
> I think this sticky needs a bit of tidying up. It might be me but the early links dont work anymore, so if you refer a new forum member to this they might get a bit frustrated trawling through and not finding any working links. I just revisited it and had problems.


might be worth PMing one of them about it as they might miss this post


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## The Dog Butler

Of course waiting until the storm calms down, i.e. when he becomes an old dog that has lived through its energy seems for most as the most humane solution but I say giving your pup back the same attitude is much more difficult but can produce much sooner results.

In the end this is what dogs do in the park when approached by the dog that is more energetic and dominant. They either submit and go on their back and hope for the least or tail under and try run/hide away and/or near the owner or go on the back legs to appear taller and snap back.

I am sorry my reply does not give you a suggestion because I do not know what is acceptable for you but give us a clue of what lengths are you prepared to go to stop your dog nipping your feet, etc.

Some say its disrespect to you and a sign of dominance, some say its just a puppy playing and each one addresses it differently. If you believe dominant, then act back like a more dominant one, if believing puppy playing then distract it with an alternative.

But as far as I have learned, animals do not play but exercise their instincts for the future survival and there is no better alternative than exercising their survival technique on a weaker pack member.


----------



## Corinthian

No. Don't abuse the pup. It's bad advice and you can read many threads with far better suggestions.


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## mags06

Great to hear this i have a 10 week old golden cocker and love her so much but i am having the exact same problem but when i shout or smack her she gets very angry and barks at me should i be more calm and ignore this in the hope that she grows out of this please help as i don't want to be angry with her for this for too long!!!!!!!!


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## mags06

James10 said:


> If everything else fails, your only consolation is that after a while as they grow up, they become less and less "nippy" (talking from experience).
> 
> Other things excite them than just nipping at ankles. :smile5:


thanks willjust hang on inthere x


----------



## mags06

The Dog Butler said:


> Of course waiting until the storm calms down, i.e. when he becomes an old dog that has lived through its energy seems for most as the most humane solution but I say giving your pup back the same attitude is much more difficult but can produce much sooner results.
> 
> In the end this is what dogs do in the park when approached by the dog that is more energetic and dominant. They either submit and go on their back and hope for the least or tail under and try run/hide away and/or near the owner or go on the back legs to appear taller and snap back.
> 
> I am sorry my reply does not give you a suggestion because I do not know what is acceptable for you but give us a clue of what lengths are you prepared to go to stop your dog nipping your feet, etc.
> 
> Some say its disrespect to you and a sign of dominance, some say its just a puppy playing and each one addresses it differently. If you believe dominant, then act back like a more dominant one, if believing puppy playing then distract it with an alternative.
> 
> But as far as I have learned, animals do not play but exercise their instincts for the future survival and there is no better alternative than exercising their survival technique on a weaker pack member.


Thanks for the advice


----------



## Doglistener1

This may help I wrote it a few years ago.

Bite Inhibition​
Puppies have painfully sharp little piranha like teeth, almost like hypodermic needles, fortunately the jaw muscles are extremely under-developed, One of the main reasons why you should never play tug with a young puppy as you could dislocate the jaw and misalign or damage the teeth.

Nature has given them these underdeveloped muscles to enable pups to play-bite safely. Whilst very young and still with his brothers and sisters and he bites too hard in play he gets blasted with a ear piercing *"yelp"* which makes him immediately back off, he waits a while then starts to play again, but a strange thing has happened, the biting is a bit softer. The same thing when feeding from the mother, the pup uses too much pressure she yelps and moves away end of milk bar. He is then gentler the next time round and a valuable lesson has been learned.

This is natures way of inhibiting the force of their bite well before the jaw muscles start to form properly at around about 4.5 months, which also coincides with the time that the puppy teeth start dropping out and the new bigger more dangerous teeth start to come through. This is called the age of cutting.

This learning process is known as *Bite Inhibition* it is a vital and important lesson and is the only reason why your puppies are born with those hideous teeth. This is how your puppy learns to inhibit the force of his bite and to control his jaws, It is a vital that he also learns to inhibit biting us humans.

I see many new owners who are told to stop all play biting, however this could potentially have far-reaching and disastrous consequences. If the pup is trained immediately never to play-bite, he will never have the chance to learn control over his jaws. Therefore, your puppy must initially learn that all biting whatever the circumstances must be done softly. Then you can start to teach him never to bite at all.

This is how you should deal with this problem

1.	Permit the puppy to play-bite by allowing your pup to softly chew on your hand. When he bites down a little harder than normal, "yelp" sharply and loudly and very short, turning your head away in rejection. Do not pull your hand away or the place he is biting. Let the puppy move away from the sound and your hand or leg, (pulling your hand away will only encourage him to lunge towards the moving object)

As an appeasement after your yelp the pup may come up and lick your hand, accept this gesture. Then allow the play to resume, but this time hopefully with a softer bite. If the play gets a little rougher, *"yelp" *again, thus further confirming that any pressure is totally unacceptable. Repeat this exercise as often as possible. And like the New York police chief who had a zero tolerance to crime you do the same with any hard biting.

You will find within a few days, that the biting turns into mouthing; you will have programmed your puppy into thinking that he must not exert any pressure whatsoever whilst mouthing because of your ultra sensitive reaction. Now you can teach him the OFF command to stop all mouthing.

Stan Rawlinson 2002


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## lizzyboo

Our cutesen dutesen pup is 'normal'.... hooray lol. We have had an escalation in 'biting' in the last couple of days (granted we have only had him since saturday but want to get the whole nipping under control as soon as possible a shave lots of friends with little children)

I have tried 'no' and offering him a substitute, this is ok for 10 secs then he comes back with avengence, and i swear bigger teeth lol. I have tried the yelping too, but he just thinks we are playing with him and either comes at us again or growls and barks........... so now we give him lots of attention when he is being 'lovely' and turn our back and walk away from him when he nips and bites! So far.... so good!


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## ladyb00

Glad to hear there are many other people tearing their hair out with nipping and it's not just us. We got our 10week old German Wirehaired Pointer 'Albert' on Saturday and he is into everything and biting with the sharpest of teeth and claws. We are trying the ignoring and 'yelping as if it it hurting' when he trys and sometimes it works but his attention span is so short. He also seems to go for every plant to bite in the garden which worries me as I know some can be dangerous to animals although I'm not sure what is and isn't. I try to ignore him when he bites the plants but he still seems intent on chewing them. Any advice!! I suppose he will settle down a little once he can go out more (only just had first jab so still a couple of weeks to go yet). A friend of mine says you can buy something which you spray onto items to stop them chewing them..anybody tried this and is it any good!. Looking forward to many more chewed feet.....


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## RAINYBOW

ladyb00 said:


> Glad to hear there are many other people tearing their hair out with nipping and it's not just us. We got our 10week old German Wirehaired Pointer 'Albert' on Saturday and he is into everything and biting with the sharpest of teeth and claws. We are trying the ignoring and 'yelping as if it it hurting' when he trys and sometimes it works but his attention span is so short. He also seems to go for every plant to bite in the garden which worries me as I know some can be dangerous to animals although I'm not sure what is and isn't. I try to ignore him when he bites the plants but he still seems intent on chewing them. Any advice!! I suppose he will settle down a little once he can go out more (only just had first jab so still a couple of weeks to go yet). A friend of mine says you can buy something which you spray onto items to stop them chewing them..anybody tried this and is it any good!. Looking forward to many more chewed feet.....


I would start to teach the "leave" command  Hold a treat in your palm, make him sit and offer him the treat, if he goes for it close your palm amd say "leave" firmly the second he withdraws open your palm and say take it, if he "snatches" close you palm again. Only let him have the treat when he isn't trying to grab it (if that makes sense).

This will take time to teach but it is good to make a start. I would keep him away from the plants for now by attaching a long line in the garden and not letting him at them.

I found a "time out" worked better than yelping, some dogs seem to find the yelping too exciting.

If the dog is being over playful and gets nippy then a few minutes out of the room with zero attention then reintroduced calmly will help but i would re iterate this will take time (possibly a couple of months of hard work). It is an age and stage thing and you just have to train through it in a consistent way


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## leashedForLife

reliable resources: 
DogStarDaily website - i strongly recommend downloading the 2 *free* pdf-file books to be found there - 
Free Downloads | Dog Star Daily 
the titles are *Before U Get Ur Dog* and *After... *. 
they cover socialization and bite-inhibition exceptionally well! :thumbsup:

fun4fido posted a helpful blog-link, but it did not work - 
Teaching Bite*Inhibition - blog - fun4fido | clicker training 4 dogs 
hopefully this one will! 

** this ** OTOH links to a frequent-spammer - 
Stop Dog Biting  How To Stop Your Dog Biting 
and the recommended advice - hold the muzzle shut etc - are very bad suggestions, IMO. :thumbdown: 
how grateful will a future vet-tech or vet or groomer be when the pup or dog later DUCKS and growls  
or simply evades and gets nervous, when anyone reaches for their collar or tries to examine or treat or clean 
their ears, mouth, eyes, teeth, etc!  
they will be less than happy, pursuing the dogs snaking head, and even more unhappy if the dog gets anxious-enuf 
to snap defensively when they persist! :yikes:

puppies are no different than infants + toddlers - 
they explore the world with their mouths, testing textures, edibility, finding out what this is. 
also dog-mouths are the analogy of human-hands - they use them to *manipulate the world and objects in it*. 
how else can they pick something up, play with a friend, nibble an itch, groom-out a burr, etc? thats what dog-mouths do!

pups who leave their dams + sibs before 56-days / 8-WO are especially prone to be hard-mouthed and have very poor 
to non-existent dog to dog social-skills: signaling play, non-threat, appeasement, deference, greeting, etc. 
RETURNING the pup to mom + sibs is the best option - 
if U cannot or do not, find other pup-tolerant adult-dogs to teach the puppy Dog-Social-Skills, as we cannot teach that.

Open Pawâs Guide To The First Two Weeks With Your New Dog | Dog Star Daily

Puppy Biting | Dog Star Daily

YouTube - How to teach 'leave it'- without intimidation 
anything by *kikopup* is safe and generally Excellent!, too :thumbup:

SINGLETONS are a special-case - 
pups born solo or sole-survivors - are often even worse, as they never experience any frustration 
as neonates and juveniles, but their dam (or foster, whether human or other) is entirely focused on that ONE - 
they can become intensely-resentful of any interference in their goals and desires, and may BITE full-force and 
full-mouth over such minor things as stopping them at the door to clip a leash on their collar!

if U are a pet-owner who has adopted or bought a pup who was a singleton, Get * Early * Professional * Help 
from a CAAB, vet-behaviorist, or highly-experienced pos-R trainer who is familiar with Behavior-Modification. 
APDT-uk or COAPE are safe resources - 
if OTOH U find a supposedly-good trainer who starts spouting dominance, RUN do not walk, away! 
singleton-pups meet the mildest of restraint or interruptions with serious threat, and will *escalate to violence* 
with little provocation! 
rehearsing or practicing violence is not at all helpful - in fact, it is seriously detrimental.

if U are breeding and get a singleton, 
find a foster-dam - k9, feline, a pig with a litter, who cares! - ASAP. 
let the pup nurse the dam immediately for colostrum over the 1st 12-hours, but spend that time finding a foster-dam, 
of any mammal-species - a shelter-dam with a litter, another breeder with a small-litter, etc. 
OR alternatively *find a foster-litter for the pup-mother to rear* with this solo-pup; either way works. 
the foster-litter brought to the dam of the single-pup can be bunnies, kittens, it does not matter; any mammal 
that is not a rabies-vector species is fine, mum will generally take them to her bosom immediately.

happy training, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife

The Dog Butler said:


> I am sorry my reply does not give you a suggestion because I do not know what is acceptable for you but give us a clue of what lengths are you prepared to go to stop your dog nipping your feet, etc.
> 
> Some say its disrespect to you and a sign of dominance, some say its just a puppy playing and each one addresses it differently. If you believe dominant, then act back like a more dominant one, if believing puppy playing then distract it with an alternative.
> 
> But as far as I have learned, animals do not play but exercise their instincts for the future survival and there is no better alternative than exercising their survival technique on a weaker pack member.


pups and dogs do not IME of over-20 years as a trainer, need to be *dominated* - 
they need to be * taught. *


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## leashedForLife

more helpful puppy-links in this post - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - Our new Puppy, shes driving my crazy (

and here - 
puppy-socialization per pups + dogs, Vs risk of contagion; cost : benefit - Pet Forums Community

happy training, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife

and another - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - 4 Month old staff x collie biting problems please help i am a 1st time dog owner 
using a time-out...


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## leashedForLife

introduce a crate - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - Calming Your Cerrrrrraaaaaazzzzzzzy Canine - new blog series 
preferably a SHIPPING -aka- Airline-Approved Crate - _not the wire AKA show-crate. _

shipping-crates / airline-crates do not leak; they rattle much, much less; are not cold-metal when chill or hot-metal in sun, 
but moderate in temperature (especially in a climate-controlled house); they have SOLID bottoms (and preferably a run-off trough, 
so diarrhea, vomit, pee, water-spills, etc, have SOMEPLACE to go - away from the raised center-surface  ).

*best of all - 
Airline Crates are GREAT for travel + transport! * 
safe, burst-strength tested, solid, they will not BEND, trapping the occupant, or FOLD, possibly puncturing the occupant - 
wire-crates can and have done both.

show-crates are too-noisy, as they rattle every time the pup/dog breathes, let alone moves; 
too-permeable, as the pup can drag destructible or dangerous items inside, trash them or eat bits! ; 
too visually-open while physically constraining: Pup can see, but not DO; and an open-roof and 4 open-walls create insecurity: the pup is trapped in the open (which is very-bad for anxious pups).

show-crates are great to show-off a dog outside the conformation-ring, in the shade; 
at home, IMO they are lousy for sleep or housetraining (the trays leak + splatter; they also rust or crack). 
they are also downright dangerous for transport.

TETHERS - 
easy to install, inexpensive, simple to use; 18-inches between clips is plenty long-enuf for most dogs. 
Tethered to Success

over-the-counter CALMATIVES and stress-lowering - 
for both humans and pups or dogs! :thumbup: 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

happy training, 
--- terry


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## Nicky10

I used the squeal and ignore thing. It worked on Buster who can now have your finger in his mouth have a gentle chew he seems to like it as like a soothing behaviour, no pain at all, and doesn't bite or nip. He learned very quickly but squealing/yelping doesn't work on a lot of terriers


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## gigona

Cloudy Star said:


> Hi, had our little pup Tess for about a week now and she is settling down really well with us, however, she is really nipping at our feet and legs. It tends to be worse when she is excited for example first thing in the morning when she is full of energy. She is a 9 week old Springer Spaniel.
> 
> Has anyone got and advice of techniques to stop her doing this. My feet are gonna get sore otherwise and my trousers will become shorts! :laugh:
> 
> Thanks


My dog is currently in quarantine and goes mad when I go and see her jumping up, nipping etc. I was reading some of Cesar Millans books and read that walking in to where your dog maybe if the dog is projecting that excited behaviour ignore it, no eye contact, no speaking, no touching and if it nips do not move as you backing away makes them feel slighty dominant, wait till the dog is submissive maybe even sitting down then pet it.

I did it worked in 2 go's!!!


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## nicephotog

*You thought that was normal....*
I recently _put down a pup_ that will only require(must have) losing some trousers deliberately recently (cattle dog X Kelpie).
He did that one totally instinctively "as he should" continually.
Anyhow, all of them do that, so_ learn to keep a pair of long trousers (for a pup) _for them to play on and _ween them off that _after you teach "no".
For hand chewing, either get a bone or get some dog biscuit treats it can break with its puppy teeth(maybe snap them to smaller peices for it to eat and chew {not dog food pebbles}, "tasties" , let it hurt your hand anyhow with the chewing).
_"Ves(uvius") *had some issues of his behavior traits *that match an unsafe animal through my experience._

http://www.youtube.com/nicephotog


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## tashi

Think there is a little confusion on this thread with different lingo from different countries - I think when it was said to put down I dont think it was meant euthanize please can we get back on track and try as best as possible to put into 'plain english' what is meant.


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## DogsAreTheBest

Puppies chew to set their teeth, both the first set and the second set. Without chewing their teeth will not seat firmly as they should so mother nature provides that they instinctively chew for this to happen. Besides safe chew toys, untreated pine ( block of wood you can buy from your local hardware store cut into blocks ), ice cubes, knotted old socks and anything you can find that is not what you want to teach your puppy to leave alone. Chewing will continue until the second set of teeth are set and going forward for some time until your puppy "grows up". It is not uncommon for light chewing to persist to 1 year of age. "Mouthing" is a separate activity and generally persists until maturity as this is how they both learn and play.


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## tripod

DogsAreTheBest said:


> Puppies chew to set their teeth, both the first set and the second set. Without chewing their teeth will not seat firmly as they should so mother nature provides that they instinctively chew for this to happen. Besides safe chew toys, untreated pine ( block of wood you can buy from your local hardware store cut into blocks ), ice cubes, knotted old socks and anything you can find that is not what you want to teach your puppy to leave alone. Chewing will continue until the second set of teeth are set and going forward for some time until your puppy "grows up". It is not uncommon for light chewing to persist to 1 year of age. "Mouthing" is a separate activity and generally persists until maturity as this is how they both learn and play.


Any documentation to support that - the setting teeth thing? Only wondering as veterinary dentists are always panicking about puppies chewing anything anyway solid and playing with hard toys as the milk teeth can be moved and then the line provided by them for the adult teeth distorted. This is why we see retained teeth for example.

Chewing causes the release of dopamine which helps with relaxing and chewing itself provides pain relief.

There is lots of evidence to support the hypothesis that puppies have teeny pointy needley teeth is for learning bite inhibition.


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## DogsAreTheBest

Support for setting teeth - All of my veterinarians over the years have reinforced this theory although they were general practitioners as I have not had the need of a dental veterinarian. I can understand why a dental veterinarian would feel as he does. I have followed their philosophy and knowing that our original dogs chewed everything from petrified wood if they could find it to rocks, as puppies, and yet through the generations and decades we have dogs with beautiful teeth causes me to believe that they may be correct in this theory, if you will. I find that by allowing my dogs to chew their teeth stay clean also. I tried researching on the internet just now and while there are many articles discussing dogs chewing I could not find what I was looking for, so to answer the question at hand, it appears that verbal instruction is all that I can offer and the fact that at "my age" and decades of rearing dogs, it has worked for me. If I am able to find more information I will be happy to post.


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## leashedForLife

The Dog Trainer : Indoor Games for People and Dogs :: Quick and Dirty Tips 

this includes the wonderful game, _Go Wild! and Freeze... _ which is terrific to teach a pup or dog self-control 
*even when they are aroused or excited, or under stress - * proofing learned behaviors is essential for using them 
in the real-world. 

happy training, 
--- terry


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## tripod

DogsAreTheBest said:


> Support for setting teeth - All of my veterinarians over the years have reinforced this theory although they were general practitioners as I have not had the need of a dental veterinarian. I can understand why a dental veterinarian would feel as he does. I have followed their philosophy and knowing that our original dogs chewed everything from petrified wood if they could find it to rocks, as puppies, and yet through the generations and decades we have dogs with beautiful teeth causes me to believe that they may be correct in this theory, if you will. I find that by allowing my dogs to chew their teeth stay clean also. I tried researching on the internet just now and while there are many articles discussing dogs chewing I could not find what I was looking for, so to answer the question at hand, it appears that verbal instruction is all that I can offer and the fact that at "my age" and decades of rearing dogs, it has worked for me. If I am able to find more information I will be happy to post.


Yeah but we don't have dogs with generations of perfect teeth  Due to selecitve breeding, processed feeding and hard chews we are seeing more and more and more problems with canine teeth. I do agree that dogs need to chew but they haven't been chewing petrified wood or stones to make them healthy. Wild canids don't live as long as domesticated dogs, they eat soft raw bone regularly and we haven't caused all sorts of funny stuff with selective breeding.
Domestic dog teeth have more against them in relation to dental health and I don't believe the chewing of very hard things or even soft woods due to the risk of splintering (I have seen too many mouth abscesses). Appropriate chewing is certainly important.

Would be very interested if you come across any data on this


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## merlin39

I'm so glad to hear other people are suffering with nipping! our 9 1/2 week cockerpoo pup is really quite persistant and we are worrying we are doing something wrong or he has aggressive tendancies. sometimes he plays really nice shows no possesion over toys or food etc but when he gets excited he goes to nip, we hold our hand flat as he cant get a grip then and say NO! or 'ah ah' which is the command we use for no or stop around the house. this rarely works in this situation and he seem to see it as a challange or game launching himself again and again at our hands, sometimes with barking and little growling for added measure. are we doing something wrong? when he gets like this we put him in his crate for a 5 min cool down and then he is normally fine! this is easy whilst he is small but when he gets bigger??
i will add that he responds very well to us in other situations is very easy to train and has learn't lots of things like sit, down, roll over, paw and is well on the way to being toilet trained.
i thnk we are overly worried as we had a rescue dog for a week before our pup who unfortunaly had to go back as he had been badley treated and showed quite a lot of aggression culminating in him biting me and going for my husband. think we are worried it's us and not the dogs now!! 
please help if you have any advice of even just reassurance! 
thansk 
merlin :confused1:


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## leashedForLife

Ur pup is only 9-WO, hun - 
*mouthing* and *nipping* are very different, mouthing is gentle and curious or playful; nips -Hurt-. 
any well-reared pup should have decent bite inhibition (a soft mouth) when they leave dam + sibs, but the pup 
has to practice being apropos with their mouth, to make it habitual. 

LINKS -

DogStarDaily website - 
i strongly recommend downloading the 2 *free* pdf-file books to be found there - 
Free Downloads | Dog Star Daily 
the titles are *Before U Get Ur Dog* and *After... *. 
they cover socialization and bite-inhibition exceptionally well! :thumbsup:



leashedForLife said:


> The Dog Trainer : Indoor Games for People and Dogs :: Quick and Dirty Tips 
> 
> this includes the wonderful game, _Go Wild! and Freeze... _ which is terrific to teach a pup or dog self-control...


TETHERS - 
U can have an eye-bolt in every room, just move tether + pup; great for *instant* time-outs, 
easy to install, inexpensive, simple use; 18-inches between clips is plenty long-enuf. 
Tethered to Success

fun4fido posted a helpful blog-link - 
Teaching Bite*Inhibition - blog - fun4fido | clicker training 4 dogs

over-the-counter CALMATIVES and stress-lowering - 
for both humans and pups or dogs! :thumbup: 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - 4 Month old staff x collie biting problems please help i am a 1st time dog owner 
using a time-out... 

Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - Our new Puppy, shes driving my crazy (

and here - 
puppy-socialization per pups + dogs, Vs risk of contagion; cost : benefit - Pet Forums Community

Open Pawâs Guide To The First Two Weeks With Your New Dog | Dog Star Daily

Puppy Biting | Dog Star Daily

YouTube - How to teach 'leave it'- without intimidation 
anything by *kikopup* is safe and generally Excellent!, too :thumbup:

happy training, and congratulations! 
--- terry


----------



## lozb

I have turned into a human pin-cushion :cursing:
Baxter jumps, bites - my coat, my arm, my leg, my bum... you name it and he's after biting it!
Usually half way into a walk - or when we've reached the field. So, I'm presuming this is pure excitement...?
Thankfully, he's not nipping my 8 year old... 
Just me! 
Blocking and using my leg to stop him getting to me seems to get him more excited - he seems to think this makes it a game!

We met a man on the field this afternoon with 3 gorgeous (and well behaved) terriers of some sort - he was very calm.... said one of his was like that and ended up pulling her teeth out with it all! Said he held her close to his chest and repeated 'Calm down' in a calm, quiet voice over and over until she calmed down. Which seems fine in a small/medium terrier but Baxter is already massive! I've tried it - just strolking him and going 'ssshh' calming which works for about, ooh, 10 seconds....

I'm sure it'll just be time before he stops this behaviour and I'll check out the links in the post above to help too.

Just wanted to vent!


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## Horse and Hound

Not read everything on hear but now if Rupert bites me or the OH too hard we make a really, high pitched yelp kind of noise.

He stops, sticks his ears up, and then lies his head on your arm. 

Then starts again 5 minutes later!


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## busterandlulu

Im having exactly the same problem, my 9 week yorkie nips at my feet and runs after my toddler and nips at his. Luckily it doesn't really hurt. But as soon as I show him a toy or something more interesting he plays with that instead. Its only been a few days and he seems to be getting the grip of it.


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## kez86

hi im having same problem my westie is now 11 weeks old 
some days shes constantly wanting to nip my hands and feet ive tried sayin no and doesnt seem to work, ive also been giving her toys in place of my hands
i dont know if it cause she bored as i cant take her out yet has she had a major op at 7 weeks and doesnt have her last injection till 2mora 

ive booked her in for puppy classes hopin they will help along with what im doin with her at min


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## Nick Jones

Let your pup drag a house training line when you're home (spray it liberally with anti chew spray to deter chewing the line) any running in at your feet or trousers can result in a quick and easy lifting of the line as you say 'Off!'
Then place the end of the lead over a radiator valve or door handle or secure fixed point for a minute or so whilst you ignore the dog. Be sure to make the dog's behaviour more of a negative result than the fun it finds at present.

With young dogs I would let them make the mistake by setting them up to fail, and then being in a good position to correct the behaviour there and then.

Squeels of 'No!' and dropping in toys can often excite the dog and reward it. Be careful that you're not heavy in your handling, but getting a clear message across that it's unwanted, and will result in a negative experience.

Once the dog can handle you walking past without reaction you can ask for a sit and treat.

Doing this with a helper can speed things up more quickly.

Good luck!

Nick


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## leashedForLife

kez86 said:


> ...my westie is now 11-WO...
> some days shes constantly wanting to nip my hands and feet -
> ive tried sayin no and doesnt seem to work, ive also been giving her toys in place of my hands
> i dont know if it cause she bored... cant take her out yet...
> she had a major-op at 7-WO and (will have) her last injection till 2moram


Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - Help with a nipping pup


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## butttons

Cloudy Star said:


> Hi, had our little pup Tess for about a week now and she is settling down really well with us, however, she is really nipping at our feet and legs. It tends to be worse when she is excited for example first thing in the morning when she is full of energy. She is a 9 week old Springer Spaniel.
> 
> Has anyone got and advice of techniques to stop her doing this. My feet are gonna get sore otherwise and my trousers will become shorts! :laugh:
> 
> Thanks


That's what normal happy Springer puppys do & she will stop doing this soon, if you have the patience to get her through her puppyhood.
My nutcase Springer is now 10mths old & We've been through it all. He would nip chew run & jump at anything that moved. She will grow out of this if you giver her love & attention all of the time & ignore her when she nps jumps up mouthes you, or a quick timeout in a crate also helps if you have one. Good luck


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## Nick Jones

butttons said:


> That's what normal happy Springer puppys do & she will stop doing this soon, if you have the patience to get her through her puppyhood.
> My nutcase Springer is now 10mths old & We've been through it all. He would nip chew run & jump at anything that moved. She will grow out of this if you giver her love & attention all of the time & ignore her when she nps jumps up mouthes you, or a quick timeout in a crate also helps if you have one. Good luck


Many of my clients have been told they'll grow out of it, only to find the dog _grew into it_ and the problem became more deeply embedded and possibly depending on the dog had an overtone of dominance towards the owner.

Stop and address these issues now quickly and without fuss, and you can be better assured of a calm, respectful pup as you go into the future.

Many a dog/pup simply does not find the ignoring of unwanted behaviours in any way a deterrent to undesirable behaviour! Stopping and addressing the behaviour in a measured way is a more positive step.

Thanks,

Nick


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## sue&harvey

Nick Jones said:


> With young dogs I would let them make the mistake by setting them up to fail, and then being in a good position to correct the behaviour there and then.
> 
> Nick


Why would anyone set the dog up to fail? :confused1:

Setting them up to succeed, loads of praise and treats when they get things right, is surely better.

(Or are all the books I have read wrong?)


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## leashedForLife

sue&harvey said:


> Why would anyone set the dog up to fail? :confused1:
> Setting them up to succeed, loads of praise and treats when they get things right, is surely better.


i very much agree, sue - 
mouthing + nipping is a *stage* of development that is actually useful for teaching a soft-mouth.

teaching a pup to have an inhibited-bite AKA soft-mouth can save huge problems and even serious injury, 
when the pup is an adult; even a JUSTIFIED bite (pain, fear, feeling threatened, provoking, etc) 
can be minimized by a dog with good bite-inhibition who *pulls the punch* rather than bite full-mouth + full-force.

the website * Dog Star Daily* has free books - _before U get Ur puppy_ and _After..._, 
as well as articles on teaching mouth-manners.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## pika

Fantastic thread, helped me a lot with little Skye!!


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## Nick Jones

sue&harvey said:


> Why would anyone set the dog up to fail? :confused1:
> 
> Setting them up to succeed, loads of praise and treats when they get things right, is surely better.
> 
> (Or are all the books I have read wrong?)


When I say setting the dog up to fail, I mean to elicit the behaviour to then give you a prepared opportunity to address that behaviour. So eventually you set the dog up to succeed. Poor choice of words on my part.

Thanks,

Nick


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## sue&harvey

But then you are encouraging the dog to Practice the behaviour. Surely capturing the behaviour When/If it is disaplayed is the better approach. I always have a box of treats in each room so I can capture a good behaviour. 
Soft mouth = play
Appropiate play = treats

Hard mouthing = being ignored and me withdrawing


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## RobD-BCactive

I can see where Nick's coming from here. If you know a pup jumps up at strangers but not family members, then you have to meet (and clue up quickly just before pup greets) the strangers so the pup's not rewarded for bad manners, not simply try to avoid them for ever more (which would be impossible). You know the pup's going to fail, many, many times before he "gets it" once the habit is there.

Another example, the pup I'm training isn't allowed to climb my stairs. If I prevented him by physical barrier, he wouldn't learn he's not allowed here, so I have to allow him to fail, but also allow him to succeed by responding to indication of the house rules.

Sometimes you are prepared and ready, have the energy to deal with an issue, so exposing the pup at that time, when you expect them to do an undesired behaviour, in order to teach them a positive alternative makes sense to me. What you are really doing, is specific training aimed at improving weaknesses, rather than simply concentrating on strengths.

I do agree with the points about teaching the pup about how little bite force hurts sensitive human skin makes sense, rather than trying to prevent all mouthing. If nothing else it is nice and reassuring for people, to see the apparently savage pups concerned reactions, when you seem to "yelp" and pause play.

The Border Collie pup I train, did not prosper with the ignore & crating time out regime, he was becoming more & more intense when interacted with, and getting used to occupying his time if ignored but with some space to roam. I think I tried Nick's restraining suggestion, but the hyper pup would thrash about risking injury, and without a way to calm it, I just felt it was the wrong move in this situation. Finding a way to surprise him out of an undesirable behaviour just as the action started, and then offering positive alternative did work. Working the pup with reward based obedience training, solved the hyper-activity, and allowed everyone to calm him down whilst doing something positive and beneficial; the pup also seems to enjoy this work, it can't just be for the "rewards" as often he's left same kibble uneaten in his food bowl.


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## Nick Jones

sue&harvey said:


> But then you are encouraging the dog to Practice the behaviour. Surely capturing the behaviour When/If it is disaplayed is the better approach. I always have a box of treats in each room so I can capture a good behaviour.
> Soft mouth = play
> Appropiate play = treats
> 
> Hard mouthing = being ignored and me withdrawing


Yes, though it depends on the dog! Some dogs will not necessarily fit in with the idyllic principles you mention. Whilst they are sound, this approach will not always work 

Trying to deal with such behaviour when/if it happens can be rather hit and miss in terms of the owner being there and ready to effectively deal with it.

What we're talking about here in relation to the OP is overcoming a problem behaviour in a quick and painless manner. Eliciting the behaviour in a controlled manner yields far quicker and much more effective results in my experience.

Thanks.


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## sue&harvey

Nick Jones said:


> Yes, though it depends on the dog! Some dogs will not necessarily fit in with the idyllic principles you mention. Whilst they are sound, this approach will not always work
> 
> Trying to deal with such behaviour when/if it happens can be rather hit and miss in terms of the owner being there and ready to effectively deal with it.
> 
> What we're talking about here in relation to the OP is overcoming a problem behaviour in a quick and painless manner. Eliciting the behaviour in a controlled manner yields far quicker and much more effective results in my experience.
> 
> Thanks.


All I can say is Positive Reinforcement is not "idyllic" It is a well researched and effective way of training a dog, and guiding it through life stages. There are other ways of training a dog or pup bite inhabition without "Creating a negative experience"

It may take a day or two longer for the pup or dog to get it, but the pooch will have a clear understanding, as well as good self-esteem.

This is taken from the article first suggested from page 1 of this thread...

The Bite stops here By Dr Ian Dunbar

Certainly, puppy biting behaviour must eventually be eliminated: we cannot have an adult dog playfully mauling family, friends and strangers in the manner of a young puppy. However, it is essential that puppy biting behaviour is gradually and progressively eliminated via a systematic four-step process. With some dogs, it is easy to teach the four phases in sequence. With others, the puppy biting may be so severe that the owners will need to embark on all four stages at once. However, it is essential that the pup first learn to inhibit the force of its bites before the biting behaviour is eliminated altogether.

Inhibiting the force of bites (Bold added)

No painful bites The first item on the agenda is to stop the puppy bruising people. *It is not necessary to reprimand the pup and, certainly, physical punishments are contra-indicated, since they tend to make some pups more excited, and insidiously erode the puppys temperament and trust in the owner.* But it is essential to let the pup know when it hurts. A simple "ouch!" is usually sufficient. The volume of the "ouch" should vary according to the dogs mental make-up; a fairly soft "ouch" will suffice for sensitive critters, but a loud "OUCH!!!" may be necessary for a wild and woolly creature. During initial training, even shouting may make the pup more excited, as does *physical confinement.* An extremely effective technique with boisterous pups is to call the puppy a "jerk!" and leave the room and shut the door. Allow the pup time to reflect on the loss of its favourite human chew toy immediately following the hard nip, and then return to make up. It is important to indicate that you still love the pup  it is the painful bites which are objectionable. Instruct the pup to come and sit, and then resume playing. Ideally, the pup should have been taught not to hurt people well before it is three months old.

It is much better for the owner to leave the pup than to try to *physically restrain* and remove it to a confinement area at a time when it is already out of control

Physiacally restaining the pup on the end of a house line while it is attacking your leg, then pulling it off by it's new collar, is not nesessary.

The link on the first page seems to be broken.

The Bite Stops Here by Dr Ian Dunbar

To me this is preferable to setting the dog up to fail.

IMO anyway


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## Nick Jones

RobD-BCactive said:


> Sometimes you are prepared and ready, have the energy to deal with an issue, so exposing the pup at that time, when you expect them to do an undesired behaviour, in order to teach them a positive alternative makes sense to me. What you are really doing, is specific training aimed at improving weaknesses, rather than simply concentrating on strengths.


Yes, that's what I'm trying to say, and put much better than I did.

Thank you 

There are remember many different ways to resolve a particular behaviour. Remaining flexible is key, as some dogs will not respond as you hoped or intended to a single approach.

Thanks,

Nick


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## lexie2010

4mth old beagle is still biting my hands/arms/ankles/legs all the time-hard drawing blood, she gets hyper and nothing stops her. i have tried everything, every tip from every book/website/3 trainers/behaviourists and she still is a demon for me, not so bad with my husband.
things that havent worked: "ouch",anything verbal, restraint (she bites further when i get hold of her-after she has turned it into a game of chase), leading behaviourist told me to take hold of scruff at underside of neck and growl, taking toys away (she will content herself with something else), putting her outside(she loves that).
when she is good she lovely, will let me hand feed her, put my hand in her bowl when eating, she won't let me groom her though.
please help, she still has her baby teeth and her bite is a bite not a nip.
she has plenty of toys, she gets frozen broccolli and raw carrots and teething treats to help with the teething pain.
what solutions are left, will try anything as its so hard being her chew toy everyday!!!


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## tripod

I have read throught the last couple of pages of this thread and tbh I am a little shocked that professionals and others have and are suggesting the use of aversives, some strong, in an attempt to eliminate this behaviour in young puppies.

Not to mention the fallout associated with the use of aversives especially when employed by novices, such as you would expect to be reading this thread and heeding the advice but also the lack of understanding of this behaviour it shows.

The entire point of the little needle-sharp teeth and your puppy's love of chomping down on any and everything is so that they get appropriate feedback in order to learn to inhibit the force of their bites. If puppies are told off, especially with strong aversives, they may stop puppy-nipping altogether. This is DISASTROUS for a puppy's development and learning of acquired bite inhibition.
If puppies do not bite or stop biting in social situations before they have developed acquired bite inhibition, they may never learn how to use their jaws in social settings with humans. Dogs have jaws that are used to crush bone and tear flesh yet we expect them to only ever by gentle with us - this needs to be learned in the first 14/16 weeks of life, while they still have their needles and before their jaws develop to much strength.

When puppies bite and their playmate yelps, stops playing or ends the fun this is appropriate feedback telling the puppy that that was too much-in social situations I don't need to or shouldn't use my jaws to that extent. Puppy will soon inhibit that level of force and we can begin to work on the next level down until puppy learns to use mouth very softly.

Then and ONLY then can we begin to eliminate biting altogether. To do so before they have learned to inhibit force is to potentially create a dangerous dog. ALL dogs potentially bite but by teaching bite inhibition we are safer in that if and when the dog does bite they do not use damaging pressure.

Thorough socialisation work will hopefully prevent the dog ever feeling uncomfortable enough to bite but bite inhibition training is your insurance policy.

Please do not attempt to eliminate biting with aversives or anything else until your puppy has leaned to inhibit the force of his/her bites.
Yelping/OUCH method tends to work for over 8 out of 10 of the puppies I work with. Those that it doesn't help are those that have a history of being slapped, scared and told off for what is deemed inappropriate behaviour, those that have not begun basic training and therefore impulse control and those puppies that are tired, anxious and have difficulty calming down.
Therefore making sure puppy has lots of down time and is also working on self control is essential.

I have never had to resort to aversives to teach bite inhibition and I have worked with easily hundreds of puppies of my own, clients and fosters. Once the other boxes were ticked I have found that there is little variety in littermates when it comes to bite inhibition training but more so in variations in environmental conditions. That means its something you as the pet owner can improve.

Systematically grade your puppy's bite force and work with yelping/time outs at each grade level until he no longer bites with that level of force. Then move onto the next. At this stage the goal is never to eliminate biting.

I have been so annoyed that I wrote a blog post on this here: Nipping and mouthing and biting oh my! « pawsitive dogs

Please get to a socialisation class with your puppy, one run by an APDT trainer so as to work on bite inhibition, socialisation and basic manners (i.e. impulse control). Download Dr Dunbar's Before and After You Get Your Puppy for free and read The Bite Stops Here and Teaching Bite Inhibition.

Your puppy's life literally depends on bite inhibition training as does the safety of people and other dogs around him so please please please get it right


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## RobD-BCactive

tripod said:


> If puppies do not bite or stop biting in social situations before they have developed acquired bite inhibition, they may never learn how to use their jaws in social settings with humans. Dogs have jaws that are used to crush bone and tear flesh yet we expect them to only ever by gentle with us - this needs to be learned in the first 14/16 weeks of life, while they still have their needles and before their jaws develop to much strength.
> 
> When puppies bite and their playmate yelps, stops playing or ends the fun this is appropriate feedback telling the puppy that that was too much-in social situations I don't need to or shouldn't use my jaws to that extent.


Well explained! Later, the first real bite may prove to be fatal to the dog when it injures someone with those adult teeth & jaws.

I think making an "Ow!" sound as yelp like as possible is easier to do and likely clearer to a pup than "Ouch!" we must remember they don't speak English.

At what age would you say that playful mouthiness, causing accidental skin scratch punctures, ought to have ceased? Presumably it takes several months for the 10 week old pup, to never become over exuberant and carelessly injure, particularly in herding breeds prone to be attracted to ankles etc.


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## tripod

I agree Rob, a high pitched yelp is the best as puppies seem to have an automatic freeze response to this sound. However, some puppies particularly when tired can get a little wound up at this sound - this is a clear indication that the puppy is conflicted. This puppy needs some down time asap with a chew toy so that he can rest and nap - pick up the game later.

I have never heard of an adult dog acquiring bite inhibition once mature. I feel that the only safe time to encourage your puppy to bite you so that you can yelp etc. is before 14/16 weeks of age. After this stage their jaw muscles begin to develop and their bite pressure increases so as to present problems for those engaged in bite inhibition training.
I also find single puppies the most difficult to train with bite inhibition as they have not had a few weeks practice on litter mates before being let loose on humans. These puppies tend to have impulse control issues, sorta only-child syndrome 

Outside of bite inhibition training so once puppies over 14-16 weeks of age and/or if puppy bites at a level that you have moved on from I feel that contact between human and tooth should be an immediate but calm withdrawal of attention. This must be particularly true if puppy teeth catches clothing, hair, shoes, laces etc. - this is a serious issue and immediate withdrawal is necessary.
If you like to rough-house with teh dog put this sort of play on cue and allow dog to engage only if invited. Otherwise, withdrawal.

On the other side of things its not just the puppy's responsibility to inhibit bites - if the owner knows that certain play etc. causes puppy to lose control then this should be avoided until puppy develops enough self control working in lower threshold scenarios.
Hope that makes sense


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## leashedForLife

Nick Jones said:


> Eliciting the behaviour in a controlled manner yields far quicker and much more effective results in my experience.


i would not suggest this, nick -  as *eliciting* usually means, as *sue said, *allowing the dog to practice the behavior.* 
_management_ to prevent the behavior, 
_interrupting or re-directing_ the dog if the dog begins the behavior, 
or _teaching an incompatible behavior_ are all goof-proof alternatives.

i have seen trainers ASK a dog to jump-up, then stomp the dogs REAR-Feet! :scared: 
that is IMO shockingly stoopid + cruel - U never, ever, EVER *tell* the dog to Do Something, then PUNISH the dog 
when they perform as requested! - that is a terrible damage to their trust.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## lexie2010

i am fairly new to pet forums, but i would like to bring this thread back to the original question it posed, can we stay away from being horrified by what some people (myself included) have been told to do by behaviourists/trainers and actually come up with some constructive advice please????
as none of these suggestions are helping my situation (pup still "biting"not nipping at 17weeks (today) and nothing will deter her) and possibly not helping others!


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## tripod

lexie2010 said:


> i am fairly new to pet forums, but i would like to bring this thread back to the original question it posed, can we stay away from being horrified by what some people (myself included) have been told to do by behaviourists/trainers and actually come up with some constructive advice please????
> as none of these suggestions are helping my situation (pup still "biting"not nipping at 17weeks (today) and nothing will deter her) and possibly not helping others!


Sorry lexie but this is a discussion forum - throughout the umpteen pages of this thread and many others in this section there have been tons and tons and tons of suggestions from all sorts of points of view.

Your puppy is only 17 weeks of age and you seem to have already gone through lots of options in a very short time (I am presuming that you only have your puppy about two months?). This doesn't seem to be a lot of time to work on anything very consistently.

As I stated in what I thought was an advice filled (and angst fueled!) post you do not want to stop this biting right now. 
Have you been doing some background work on this issue particularly working on impulse control? 
If your puppy is biting rather than nipping have you consulted a good behaviour-aware vet for help as regards looking at other issues possibly behind this?

I don't know who your 'leading behaviourist' is but she/he can't be too reputable if those are the sorts of things that are suggested and tried. No wonder your puppy has an aversion to hands etc. and training. What association has certified this person as a 'behaviourist'?

If you were my client having gone through all this I would ask you to keep a diary of these incidents specificially recording details such as time of day, waht happens immediatley preceeding these events, what does the puppy do (describing particulalry ear, whisker, eye/pupil, feet, tail and body positions), what do you do etc.
I would also ask you to go back to basics with bite inhibition training, step up remedial socialisation and handling work, do LOTS of impulse control work with games, and follow other specific protocols laid out. I would also ask you to keep your play sessions short with your puppy (no more than 10-15 seconds) and then have a calming down period before continuing again.
Please read the link I posted as there are links to other relevant exercises in there.
Has your puppy attended an APDT run puppy socialisation class? If not I would very very very quickly get him into one.

Your breed is a tough one as they are often associated with resource guarding and impulse control issues when it comes to training - certainly many of the pet lines I see her. What sort of envrionment was your puppy reared in? In any case that is done now and your dog is entering adolescence so things are going to continue to escalate and worsen unless intervention is immediate.
Does your puppy get to play, supervised, with other safe adult dogs? Supervise play with suitable adult dogs can be great for helping with bite inhibition and self control.

There is more work needed for you and your puppy and it will take time - there are no quick fixes. It doesn't matter what has happened moreso how you continue. If you are going to hire someone, and I do recommend it, please look into them a little closer and check out their qualifications - there are very few truly special trainers out there but once you find one it will be a great for you and your pet. I wish you the best of luck, anything I can do to help let me know


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## RobD-BCactive

lexie2010 said:


> i am fairly new to pet forums, but i would like to bring this thread back to the original question it posed, can we stay away from being horrified by what some people (myself included) have been told to do by behaviourists/trainers and actually come up with some constructive advice please????
> as none of these suggestions are helping my situation (pup still "biting"not nipping at 17weeks (today) and nothing will deter her) and possibly not helping others!


Well when I read your first post on this, it seems you say the over exuberance is centered round you. So perhaps you need to work on avoiding building up that excitement, stay calm, less talking, slower & deeper, no shouting, avoid rough type games. Avoid pushing pup away, make your "Ow!" very yelp like and withdraw effectively (arms crossed back turned). May be the game for the pup is actually to push you around, with the "pay off" being your reaction. Perhaps try impersonal rattle bottle, rather than voice, when you need to distract onto a toy. Try reward based obedience training to gain control of a food motivated pup.


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## Dudleydad

Sorry to come in late on this thread, but have only just joined the forum and wondered if anyone else had experienced quite aggressive reactions to "No", or even just walking away?

Our 13 week old cocker is a nightmare at the minute. "Yelping" when he bites just makes him crave our fingers/wrists hands even more! I know this is as a result of the pain he's in from teething and is normal behaviour, but he's started growling at me when it happens and seems to be actively trying to bite me.

Am I just being paranoid as this is our first puppy? Has anyone else experienced this?!


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## leashedForLife

Dudleydad said:


> ...wondered if anyone else had experienced quite aggressive reactions to "No", or even just walking away?
> 
> Our 13 week old cocker is a nightmare at the minute. "Yelping" when he bites just makes him crave our fingers/wrists hands even more! I know this is as a result of the pain he's in from teething and is normal behaviour, but he's started growling at me when it happens and seems to be actively trying to bite me.


did U read the thread, DD? 
there are links, FREE on-line books and articles on reducing mouthing + teaching a soft mouth, AKA bite-inhibition. 
if yelping makes him more excited... don't yelp - read the resources listed for alternative ways to redirect the puppy.


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## leashedForLife

RobD-BCactive said:


> Perhaps try impersonal rattle bottle, rather than voice, when you need to distract onto a toy.
> Try reward based obedience training to gain control of a food motivated pup.


hey, rob! :--) 
how would a rattle-bottle [which is a startling-device, and depending on the pup, a mild to serious aversive] 
re-direct a mouthing or nipping pup onto a toy? 
it seems to me that those are 2 separate things: startling the pup to stop the mouthing/nipping, and re-directing - 
why not skip the startle + just re-direct? a tug-game can be quite effective for this, just use a chew-toy as the tug...


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## Dudleydad

Thanks for the advice guys,
I have read the thread and yes, the articles and links are useful; however my main concern was whether he is actually displaying _aggresive_ traits or was simply behaving like a normal puppy?

We do use food and reward based training, but have now started giving him time-outs by shutting him in the dining room for a couple of minutes when he is really confrontational. It seems to work in the immediacy and combining it with a game of tug of war when he comes back in definitely helps to tire him out, but I've also read that games like these are not advisable!
I think I just want to know that I don't have a case of cocker rage on my hands!


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## RAINYBOW

Dudleydad said:


> Thanks for the advice guys,
> I have read the thread and yes, the articles and links are useful; however my main concern was whether he is actually displaying _aggresive_ traits or was simply behaving like a normal puppy?
> 
> We do use food and reward based training, but have now started giving him time-outs by shutting him in the dining room for a couple of minutes when he is really confrontational. It seems to work in the immediacy and combining it with a game of tug of war when he comes back in definitely helps to tire him out, but I've also read that games like these are not advisable!
> I think I just want to know that I don't have a case of cocker rage on my hands!


I have a cocker and he was a "mouthy" beggar, very nippy and didn't always like being told uh uh !!

It does seem to be a bit of a breed trait, try and be consitent at sticking with the time outs and he will grow out of it by about 5 months (or it should be significantly improved) Time Outs worked best all round for us, anything else just provided further stimulation and more gnashing 

Cocker Rage is pretty much extinct and is a very specific behaviour. It is unprovoked and owners who have experienced it talk about a "glazed" expression, it is an outright attack rather than just growly/nippy puppy like behaviour which to be honest is mostly rough play it's just as humans we don't see it like that.

I would really do some research on the subject before you label the dog with it because it is very often misdiagnosed by vets and quite often results in perfectly normal mouthy puppies being put to sleep because people are so misinformed and paranoid about it. You would be very very unlucky to have a genuine case of Rage Syndrome because it is so rare and i would only accept the diagnosis from an expert in the field rather than just a local vet.

Just a note that this breed can also be proned to resource guarding so be very careful about giving high value treats like bones and pigs ears etc and taking things off the dog especially in an enclosed space like under a table etc.

I would recommend the book The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey


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## RAINYBOW

Just to add i removed all tug games/high excitement games and worked hard on basic obedience until i felt Oscar was mature enough to understand the rules 

A good training class should help with this


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## Doglistener1

I doubt very much that this is to do with "Cocker Rage" I have written and article on Cocker Rage questioning the fact that it is a syndrome or that it exists and is it a idiopathic aggression. Cocker Rage Syndrome Fact or Fiction

CockerS are the worst of all the breeds i have ever treated for resource guarding this will sometimes guard anything from a tissue to a bed. One the common problems is they will resent control and will nip and bite as a result of you controlling the situation.

Try the OFF command. I use a jingler but you should be able to set this control command without having this device it just takes considerably longer depending just how pushy and control complex you dog is. Read my article on The Alpha Myth and this will tell you also how to do time out I call it the Naughty Step for dogs. Dogs and the Alpha Myth a New Training Method

This the "OFF" Command
This is the most important of all the exercises and sets the scene for the rest of your work using the Jingler. You must do this first before you do any of the other exercises.

Put your dog on its 5 + foot lead with the Jingler. Take a treat make the dog sit and holding the lead in your left hand and the treat in your right. Offer the treat and gently say "Good" "take it" do this at least five times, then offer the dog the treat and do not say anything.

When the dog goes to take the treat turn your head sharply to the right and bringing both your hands up to your chest removing the treat from the dog and making the Jingler tinkle at the same time, gently say "OFF" (It is much easier to follow all these instructions if you have purchased the DVD as it shows a step by step guide on exactly what you need to do, especially the timing and the gentleness of the actions.)

What you are actually saying is "this is my bone and I am prepared to share it but only when I give permission", the permission is "Good" "take it" You are training control of the greatest resource of all "FOOD" Repeat the "OFF" command until the dog turns his head away, Watch for the movement and the body language as soon as he turns head say "Good" "take it" in a praising tone and give him the treat, keep repeating the exercise until the dog naturally turns his head away when you offer him a treat. The "Good" is a target word and acts like a clicker. Then practice this off lead using only body language ie the turn and "OFF"

Whenever he jumps up or tries to nip or bite say "OFF" for the bite and the jump, giving a slight corrective twitch on the lead at the same time, if he is on the lead, which can be left on for a few days. Do not praise the dog when he gets down after jumping up or biting and you have to issue the OFF command, you are only praising the bite or the jump. Repeat exercise until he stops jumping up or biting. Remember with all training gradually reduce the treats, to only 1 in 30 of the best responses.


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## sue&harvey

Doglistener1 said:


> *Do not praise the dog when he stops, you are only praising the bite or the jump.* Repeat exercise until he stops jumping up or biting. Remember with all training gradually reduce the treats, to only 1 in 30 of the best responses.


Every other article I have read, and in practice, you praise when they have 4 paws on the ground and is Calm. This is praising the desired behaviour. Than treat as much as possible UNTIL the behaviour is solid, then begin to reduce treats, but praise every time. The dog needs a motivator! The behaviour if taught in a pleasent manner will become self rewarding. This is where a clicker helps as you pin point the behaviour you want. In this case 4 paws, ensuring you are rewarding the desired behaviour.


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## Doglistener1

sue&harvey said:


> Every other article I have read, and in practice, you praise when they have 4 paws on the ground and is Calm. This is praising the desired behaviour. Than treat as much as possible UNTIL the behaviour is solid, then begin to reduce treats, but praise every time. The dog needs a motivator! The behaviour if taught in a pleasent manner will become self rewarding. This is where a clicker helps as you pin point the behaviour you want. In this case 4 paws, ensuring you are rewarding the desired behaviour.


Perhaps I could have phrased it better. You cannot praise a dog if you have had to issue an command to stop something he should not be doing. If a dog jumps up and you have to say "OFF" then to praise when the dog gets off after the reprimand is praising for bad behaviour. You praise when he does not jump up not when he jumps up. Often we praise an reinforce the wrong behaviour this is a case when we would be praising bad behaviour.

The good word is a target word and the general public will tend to continue this which they often do not with a clicker that is why I generally use a target word. Do not get me wrong I believe in operant conditioning and clicker techniques, it is just I have found that people timing is better if they use a target work rather than a clicker.


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## RAINYBOW

Doglistener1 said:


> I doubt very much that this is to do with "Cocker Rage" I have written and article on Cocker Rage questioning the fact that it is a syndrome or that it exists and is it a idiopathic aggression. Cocker Rage Syndrome Fact or Fiction
> 
> CockerS are the worst of all the breeds i have ever treated for resource guarding this will sometimes guard anything from a tissue to a bed. One the common problems is they will resent control and will nip and bite as a result of you controlling the situation.
> 
> Try the OFF command. I use a jingler but you should be able to set this control command without having this device it just takes considerably longer depending just how pushy and control complex you dog is. Read my article on The Alpha Myth and this will tell you also how to do time out I call it the Naughty Step for dogs. Dogs and the Alpha Myth a New Training Method
> 
> This the "OFF" Command
> This is the most important of all the exercises and sets the scene for the rest of your work using the Jingler. You must do this first before you do any of the other exercises.
> 
> Put your dog on its 5 + foot lead with the Jingler. Take a treat make the dog sit and holding the lead in your left hand and the treat in your right. Offer the treat and gently say Good "take it" do this at least five times, then offer the dog the treat and do not say anything.
> 
> When the dog goes to take the treat turn your head sharply to the right and bringing both your hands up to your chest removing the treat from the dog and making the Jingler tinkle at the same time, gently say "OFF" (It is much easier to follow all these instructions if you have purchased the DVD as it shows a step by step guide on exactly what you need to do, especially the timing and the gentleness of the actions.)
> 
> What you are actually saying is this is my bone and I am prepared to share it but only when I give permission, the permission is Good take it You are training control of the greatest resource of all FOOD Repeat the "OFF" command until the dog turns his head away, Watch for the movement and the body language as soon as he turns head say "Good "take it" in a praising tone and give him the treat, keep repeating the exercise until the dog naturally turns his head away when you offer him a treat. The Good is a target word and acts like a clicker. Then practice this off lead using only body language ie the turn and OFF
> 
> Whenever he jumps up or tries to nip or bite say "OFF for the bite and the jump, giving a slight corrective twitch on the lead at the same time, if he is on the lead, which can be left on for a few days. Do not praise the dog when he gets down after jumping up or biting and you have to issue the OFF command, you are only praising the bite or the jump. Repeat exercise until he stops jumping up or biting. Remember with all training gradually reduce the treats, to only 1 in 30 of the best responses.


I think this is very good advice  I agree with the observations about Cockers too having owned one that resource guarded and definately did the whole resentment nipping thing  I do believe that Rage Syndrome is mostly misdiagnosed resource guarding or fear aggression. When Oscars resource guarding was at its peak he was guarding stuff like the bin in the kitchen which you would have had no idea about unless you could spot his body language therefore when he chased my son out of the kitchen it could easily have been interpretted as an unprovoked sudden attack for no reason (similar to how rage is described in its simplest form)

OFF and Take It are very easy to teach and are extremely useful with a mouthy pup


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## kath3kidz

Hi,
I have had the same prob with my 9 week old terrier pup. I was advised to put Vick on furniture to stop him chewing and it worked really well. As he goes to sniff things he smells the Vick and backs off; as he backs off I say 'AH AH AH' disapprovingly It has got to the point where he just needs the smell to back off, not the taste, and he often backs off other things when i go 'AH AH AH' without the Vick.I've been dabbin Vick on my slippers today and using the same approach and he has left my feet alone a:thumbup:ll day!!!


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## leashedForLife

sue&harvey said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Every other article I have read, and in practice, you praise when they have 4 paws on the ground and is Calm.
> This is praising the desired behaviour. Than treat as much as possible UNTIL the behaviour is solid, then begin to reduce treats, but praise every time. *The dog needs a motivator!*
> The behaviour if taught in a pleasent manner will become self rewarding. This is where a clicker helps as you pin point the behaviour you want. In this case 4 paws, ensuring you are rewarding the desired behaviour.


definitely 

this video-link was posted by *ArwenLune* - 
YouTube - ‪Motivation in Dog Training‬‎

it's *Donaldson* talking about motivation in training, which equally applies to motivation in behavior - 
after all, every creature does what they do, in expectation or hope of a rewarding outcome: food, shelter, 
social contact, interesting activity, whatever the desired thing might or could be - even *investigating novel objects* 
while interesting in + of itself, is also potentially rewarding - there could be food, a toy, who knows?

this is the post-source of the video - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - My dog is stubborn

an interesting thread in its own right, BTW - as it is all about motivation.  
cheers, 
--- terry


----------



## Doglistener1

leashedForLife said:


> definitely
> 
> this video-link was posted by *ArwenLune* -
> YouTube - ‪Motivation in Dog Training‬‎
> 
> it's *Donaldson* talking about motivation in training, which equally applies to motivation in behavior -
> after all, every creature does what they do, in expectation or hope of a rewarding outcome: food, shelter,
> social contact, interesting activity, whatever the desired thing might or could be - even *investigating novel objects*
> while interesting in + of itself, is also potentially rewarding - there could be food, a toy, who knows?
> 
> this is the post-source of the video -
> Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - My dog is stubborn
> 
> an interesting thread in its own right, BTW - as it is all about motivation.
> cheers,
> --- terry


I am sure it does not suggest rewarding bad behaviour, that would be the very worst thing you could do.

People have the misguided ides that you reward every behaviour when the dog obeys. This would be a disaster if we did. You cannot reward a dog that you have to use a reprimand to stop the behaviour that is occuring at that time. If you do the dog will link the reprimand and the behaviour plus the actions that required the reprimand (in this case the jump up and the "OFF") with the reward.

Common sense really!


----------



## leashedForLife

kath3kidz said:


> *bold and underline added - *
> 
> I have had the same prob with my 9-WO terrier... I was advised to put Vick on furniture to stop him chewing and it worked really well. As he goes to sniff things *he smells the Vick and backs off; as he backs off I say 'AH AH AH' disapprovingly * It has got to the point where he just needs the smell to back off, not the taste, and he often backs off other things when i go 'AH AH AH' without the Vick. I've been dabbin Vick on my slippers today and using the same approach... he has left my feet alone :thumbup: all day!!!


there is nothing wrong with using taste-deterrents on objects [altho i prefer to puppy-proof, re-direct + manage, 
all 3 as a combination depending upon the object; i cannot remove the sofa from the living-room, and i cannot smear it 
all over with Vicks :lol: so i teach the pup that sitting beside me is fine; but every attempt to chew the cushion-binding 
has Pup on the floor, without comment.  the light soon dawns...].

however... kath, Ur timing is a bit off  *U make disapproving noises As Pup Withdraws - when he acts appropriately. * 
may i suggest that instead, U pair *his NEAR approach to forbidden objects, or actual attempts to lick or chew, 
with Ah-Ah-Ah... * 
but don't be too quick to SAY that when he comes near U while wearing slippers :lol: or soon he will stay 6 to 8-ft 
away when U wear the slippers, leading to a whole new batch of potential irritants - chasing the pup around the garden 
in the Killer-Slippers, or trying to leash a fleeing pup in the Killer Slippers :scared: 

U can also PRAISE the pup for backing off from chewing :thumbup:

timing is everything  happy training, 
- terry


----------



## sue&harvey

Doglistener1 said:


> I am sure it does not suggest rewarding bad behaviour, that would be the very worst thing you could do.
> 
> People have the misguided ides that you reward every behaviour when the dog obeys. This would be a disaster if we did. You cannot reward a dog that you have to use a reprimand to stop the behaviour that is occuring at that time. If you do the dog will link the reprimand and the behaviour plus the actions that required the reprimand (in this case the jump up and the "OFF") with the reward.
> 
> Common sense really!


Can I ask what you suggest for the "reprimand"?


----------



## leashedForLife

RobD-BCactive said:


> ...If you know a pup jumps up at strangers but not family members, then you have to meet (and clue up quickly just before pup greets) the strangers so the pup's not rewarded for bad manners, not simply try to avoid them for ever more (which would be impossible). *You know the pup's going to fail, many, many times before he "gets it" once the habit is there.*


i would disagree, rob - 

effective management precludes the pup ever *developing* a jumping-up habit, so that behavior 
does not have to be erased - i give pups who are excitedly greeting very-little leash, or simply STAND ON IT 
so the pup cannot get their forehand of the floor, and never get a paw on the person - they either stand on all fours, 
which i praise AND the person is now permitted to fuss them mildly - no squealing or rumpling ears, please! 
don;t maul the pup or jaw-wrestle with Ur hand, this is POLITE, thanks  on both parts.

or the pup with a short-leash may default to a comfortable SIT - when i praise + reward the freely-offered SIT. 
it is esy to shape a default for sit-to-greet: tell the person they cannot look-at or touch the puppy till the butt 
hits the floor - and just wait. sooner or later, BOOM - butt hits, warm praise, gentle petting, a treat  


RobD-BCactive said:


> The Border Collie pup... [became] more & more intense when interacted with, and... [occupied] his time if ignored but with some space to roam. I think I tried... restraining... but the hyper pup would thrash about risking injury, and without a way to calm it, I just felt it was the wrong move in this situation.


what sort of 'restraint' does this refer to, rob? :huh: human hands holding him? 
pinning him? what exactly? *thrashing risking injury* does not sound as tho he was being gated, tethered, 
or crated, that's for sure.  
*tethering a wild-pup* for just 30 to 45-seconds can work miracles - 
the puppy wears the nylon-coated 12 to 18-inch MAX-length cable as a drag, and when the pup becomes unmanageable, clip the tether to an eye-bolt screwed to the baseboard, around a newel-post, to the leg of a hefty handy sofa, or etc; wait just a few seconds, back or SIDE to pup, release the pup as soon as they relax a bit. 
see here for tethering uses - 
Tethered to Success



RobD-BCactive said:


> Finding a way to surprise him out of an undesirable behaviour just as the action started, and then offering positive alternative did work.


being able to startle a pup out of an undesirable behavior should be used with caution - 
the very pups who are easily deterred by a startling sound, movement, etc, are the very ones who will likely 
be made inordinately timid of novelty or of OFFERING behavior - they become very conservative in their actions, 
doing only those things they know are 'safe', not exploring novel objects or environments, etc - they shut-down.

notice how intense the STARTLE has to be to interrupt this pup, a confident + friendly Lab-pup about 11-WO - 
Platt's puppy problem - see what trainers say to fix bad behavior | WHAS11 Louisville, Kentucky and Indiana News | Top Stories 
the Bark-B[l]uster trainer has the F-owner shout *Bah!* + stamp her foot to get him to back-off from a treat 
deliberately placed on the floor - this is supposed to teach Leave-it or Dog-Zen... 

watch this version and notice how much less-drama and tension there is 
YouTube - ‪How to teach 'leave it'- without intimidation‬‎

positive [happy] rather than aversive [unpleasant] interruptor - 
YouTube - ‪How to stop unwanted behavior- the positive interrupter- dog training clicker training‬‎



RobD-BCactive said:


> Working the pup with reward based obedience training, solved the hyper-activity, and allowed everyone to calm him down whilst doing something positive and beneficial...


much better! :thumbup:


RobD-BCactive said:


> ...the pup also seems to enjoy this work, it can't just be for the "rewards" as often he's left same kibble uneaten in his food bowl.


i rarely use kibble for rewards!  i want enthusiasm, not _ho-hum, here we go again... _ 
i only use kibble for CHEAP easy-to-motivate dogs like Beagles, :lol: the harder the work we are doing, 
or *the younger the pup / the more-uncertain the dog* -- like an adult dog who is utterly untrained, + a bit anxious 
besides -- *the BETTER the quality of my rewards needs to be, IMO. *

i offer k9-caviar to puppies early-on; i want them hooked on training, loving every minute, willing to do handstands 
to get that incredibly scrumptious goody; for dogs who are struggling or very naive, i also want to make that link: 
_U work, U get *really good* stuff. _

i will also reward based on how hard this is for THAT individual - 
i will reward my audience for politely watching, OR for waiting their turn to go get the fetch-toy or chase the ball... 
they are being rewarded for SELF-control, and that is way-harder for some than for others.  
a terrier who *sit-stays* while the Lab goes barreling after the ball is WORKING - and deserves apropos rewards, 
IMO, way-better than the same stuff eaten 2x daily :lol: no matter how nutritious it is! 
rewards can be kibble for simple stuff - but IMO real-work should earn 'dessert'. :arf:

SIZE matters, too - i give super-good but teeny treats; if they do something extraordinary, i give JACKPOTS - 
not a big-hunk, but a series of tiny-treats as fast as the dog can swallow. 
these mark leaps of comprehension, generalizing a concept, or other milestones; often i end the lesson 
or session immediately-after, to leave the dog to think about that as their final memory of our session. 
this leaves a happy-recall of training events, and the dog is very eager to work the next lesson... 
and for their lives long, too  learning + training are lifelong, not one-time - just as in humans.

_*of course, i also use NON-food rewards: 
* real life rewards: walk, play, food, play with another dog... 
* toys to chase, fetch or 'kill' 
* tug-games, chase fun, a flirt pole... 
* praise, petting, massage, a half-hour relaxing on the sofa beside me... 
but this post is about early-training or teaching, where rapid delivery + speed of consumption matter.  
U cannot throw a fetch-toy for every SIT, or learning would be very slow - Fun, but slo-o-o-w!  *_

cheers, and happy training, 
--- terry


----------



## Doglistener1

sue&harvey said:


> Can I ask what you suggest for the "reprimand"?


Either you have not read what I have said or you have not understood what I have said. "OFF" is a reprimand I do not believe i could have made it any clearer?

Perhaps I am not making myself clear and it may be me. However I am finding it difficult to make myself any clearer. DO NOT REWARD BAD BEHAVIOUR

Stan


----------



## sue&harvey

Doglistener1 said:


> Either you have not read what I have said or you have not understood what I have said. "OFF" is a reprimand I do not believe i could have made it any clearer?
> 
> Perhaps I am not making myself clear and it may be me. However I am finding it difficult to make myself any clearer. DO NOT REWARD BAD BEHAVIOUR
> 
> Stan


But off is a work, not a reprimand. Unless the dog has associated this word with an action it is not a reprimand. You could be saying Juicy steak, for all the dog knows. So what action do you associate "off" with? Do you throw a treat away from the person or object? Or do you use an adversary?


----------



## RAINYBOW

Doglistener1 said:


> Either you have not read what I have said or you have not understood what I have said. "OFF" is a reprimand I do not believe i could have made it any clearer?
> 
> Perhaps I am not making myself clear and it may be me. However I am finding it difficult to make myself any clearer. DO NOT REWARD BAD BEHAVIOUR
> 
> Stan


This is probably going off topic as the thread isn't about resource guarding but is interesting, on the point of resource guarding i have challenged what i see as "rewarding" the behaviour on here before as a mistimed "reward" for resource guarding simply reinforces the behaviour IMO and is what i believe happened with Oscar when i tried to tackle it with positive R only.

The only thing that turned his behaviour around was when he fully understood that his behaviour was unacceptable which involved a "punishment" (time out) and zero reward. This coupled with lots of work on commands like OFF and LEAVE etc *and *diversion tactics *and *being able to read his body language so that the behaviour did not escalate to growl or snap was the way it was resolved. This was very specific and individual to him and his personality and our specific family dynamic.


----------



## Doglistener1

Leashedforlife.

Would you do me a real favour and not keep adding smileys after every sentence, and please stop using plus or minus signs when putting sentences together as trained in colleges to describe behaviour of dogs. No one but nerds who have little if any understanding of dogs speak like that or understand what you are attempting to portray.

The majority of people reading these threads will not understand taste-deterrents + repulsive/aversive odors... Timing and will just turn off.

If you really want to explain something then explain it in real terminology not science gabble.


----------



## Doglistener1

RAINYBOW said:


> This is probably going off topic as the thread isn't about resource guarding but is interesting, on the point of resource guarding i have challenged what i see as "rewarding" the behaviour on here before as a mistimed "reward" for resource guarding simply reinforces the behaviour IMO and is what i believe happened with Oscar when i tried to tackle it with positive R only.
> 
> The only thing that turned his behaviour around was when he fully understood that his behaviour was unacceptable which involved a "punishment" (time out) and zero reward. This coupled with lots of work on commands like OFF and LEAVE etc *and *diversion tactics *and *being able to read his body language so that the behaviour did not escalate to growl or snap was the way it was resolved. This was very specific and individual to him and his personality and our specific family dynamic.


Ahhhhhhhhh thank you! Someone that actually understands that you cannot and should never reward behaviour that is negative. I am absolutely frustrated with those that believe that you should ignore bad behaviour and only encourage good. That is not how mammals or any animals learns.

Please study human psychology first before progressing to animal psychology and hopefully you will (without being anthropomorphic) understand what requires to be done. Rainybow you are my hero!


----------



## RAINYBOW

Doglistener1 said:


> Ahhhhhhhhh thank you! Someone that actually understands that you cannot and should never reward behaviour that is negative. I am absolutely frustrated with those that believe that you should ignore bad behaviour and only encourage good. That is not how mammals or any animals learns.
> 
> Please study human psychology first before progressing to animal psychology and hopefully you will (without being anthropomorphic) understand what requires to be done. Rainybow you are my hero!


Thanks 

I do tend to view Oscar like the kids (whilst acknowledging he is a DOG ) Clear Instructions and firm boundaries and a good healthy dose of Love and Affection  ,


----------



## Doglistener1

sue&harvey said:


> But off is a work, not a reprimand. Unless the dog has associated this word with an action it is not a reprimand. You could be saying Juicy steak, for all the dog knows. So what action do you associate "off" with? Do you throw a treat away from the person or object? Or do you use an adversary?


WHAT!

I have created "OFF" as a reprimand in my previous posts I have explained this in full. I presume you mean word rather than work?

I am sorry I cannot explain more succinctly either you are trying not to understand or you really have no idea what I am saying?


----------



## tripod

> being able to read his body language so that the behaviour did not escalate to growl or snap was the way it was resolved.


But understanding and giving distance ie not allowing it to escalate _is_ rewarding - you reward appropriate behaviour with appropriate behaviour  And as it turns out in your case it was reinforcing


----------



## RAINYBOW

tripod said:


> But understanding and giving distance ie not allowing it to escalate _is_ rewarding - you reward appropriate behaviour with appropriate behaviour  And as it turns out in your case it was reinforcing


I never said i gave distance when i spotted his behaviour. For example he would guard the bin in the kitchen, to anyone else he would look like he was just lying by the bin but i learned the subtle signals that told me he was guarding, no growls no snaps (which is really the unwanted behaviour) just his body language. I would spot it straight away and distract by asking for a sit then making him come to me or some other command, or i would verbally interupt once i was sure he knew that guarding was wrong with a "uh uh", this didn't need to be harsh he knew i knew and he would choose to move. No rewards in there .

He was only ever Timed Out if he growled or worse because IMO the "punishment" should fit the crime


----------



## tripod

oh I get ya  This indeed was obviously reinforcing as the desired behaviour increased or perhaps punishing as the undesired behaviour decreased.

There are a couple of ways that this can be viewed as rewarding: first you distracted him from his gaurding which relieves pressure and/or second cues such as sit or whatever can be rewarding after time as they are so linked with actual primary reinforcers (such as treats etc.).

Rewards are not just food or other things that are believed to be pleasant - this is of course speculation we can't ask the dog, as smart as Oscar is  

This is a dog-geek discussion so i will leave it for now but analysing a scenario to work out which bits are reinforcing behaviour is very important. 
You know Rainybow that I am not a fan of 'time-outs' (which is known as P-) or other aversives for growling or such but relief from the situation is rewarding (and can be reinforcing) and as such with some guarders this can be quite effective (and also with other issues).
As such and as you have stated that this is a highly individual instance and I would never recommend this approach especially not on a forum or the likes but I am glad that you and Oscar are better off for it  although we may discuss the ins and outs


----------



## RAINYBOW

tripod said:


> oh I get ya  This indeed was obviously reinforcing as the desired behaviour increased or perhaps punishing as the undesired behaviour decreased.
> 
> There are a couple of ways that this can be viewed as rewarding: first you distracted him from his gaurding which relieves pressure and/or second cues such as sit or whatever can be rewarding after time as they are so linked with actual primary reinforcers (such as treats etc.).
> 
> Rewards are not just food or other things that are believed to be pleasant - this is of course speculation we can't ask the dog, as smart as Oscar is
> 
> This is a dog-geek discussion so i will leave it for now but analysing a scenario to work out which bits are reinforcing behaviour is very important.
> You know Rainybow that I am not a fan of 'time-outs' (which is known as P-) or other aversives for growling or such but relief from the situation is rewarding (and can be reinforcing) and as such with some guarders this can be quite effective (and also with other issues).
> As such and as you have stated that this is a highly individual instance and I would never recommend this approach especially not on a forum or the likes but I am glad that you and Oscar are better off for it  although we may discuss the ins and outs


All i can say in our instance (and i always try to make that clear) is when the unwanted behaviour was ignored it escalated to such a serious degree that had Oscar belonged to someone else he may well have been PTS, once i had got a handle on the unwanted behaviour it was resolved 

The point i am making in relation to this thread (back on track ) is really with regards Rage Syndrome and its misdiagnosis. The behaviour that Oscar displayed when his resource guarding was at its peak could very very easily have been interpretted as Rage Syndrome when infact it was a relitively resolvable case of R Guarding. Had i taken him to the Vets and described the circumstances of his "attack" on my son (it was a "seeing off" but could have been seen as an attack) then there are still many many vets who would have diagnosed Rage and recommended him being PTS. Not very many people with their first dog who had just bitten their child in an unexplained and seemingly unprovoked attack would have disagreed with the vet and a beautiful, loyal and totally trainable pup would have been PTS  Oscars shows absolutely ZERO sign of RG now :thumbup:


----------



## Doglistener1

tripod said:


> oh I get ya  This indeed was obviously reinforcing as the desired behaviour increased or perhaps punishing as the undesired behaviour decreased.
> 
> There are a couple of ways that this can be viewed as rewarding: first you distracted him from his gaurding which relieves pressure and/or second cues such as sit or whatever can be rewarding after time as they are so linked with actual primary reinforcers (such as treats etc.).
> 
> Rewards are not just food or other things that are believed to be pleasant - this is of course speculation we can't ask the dog, as smart as Oscar is
> 
> This is a dog-geek discussion so i will leave it for now but analysing a scenario to work out which bits are reinforcing behaviour is very important.
> You know Rainybow that I am not a fan of 'time-outs' (which is known as P-) or other aversives for growling or such but relief from the situation is rewarding (and can be reinforcing) and as such with some guarders this can be quite effective (and also with other issues).
> 
> I will leave it at that i think and hope the dogs that are aggressing nipping and biting will pick up on the information that really works rather than the ones that never do, but sound great on paper.
> As such and as you have stated that this is a highly individual instance and I would never recommend this approach especially not on a forum or the likes but I am glad that you and Oscar are better off for it  although we may discuss the ins and outs


tripod!

You are making it far to complex and you are confusing what is a simple issue.

1. Do not praise bad behaviour

2. Do not support or ignore bad behaviour

3. Reward good behaviour, but if you slavishly do this remember the dog will become blaise and the behaviour will become non-rewarding if you over compensate.

4. There are four elements to operant conditioning. To cherry pick the ones that suits your beliefs is both incorrect and negative to the training of any mammal. That includes dogs and humans.

5. Educational diktat is useless if not coupled with hands on practical experience.

6. There is no short cut to experience. Ability both practical and theoretical is learned over a period of time, not granted as an academic licence through colleges or universities.

7. Aversives are a part of training and behaviour. A lead for instance is a an aversive.

8. Positive only training is a contradiction in terms. The majority of (scientists that eschew this) generally are working from a lack of practical knowledge and a misunderstanding of how mammals learn.

I sometimes despair when I listen to the theorists that spout information that is gleaned from theory rather than practical experience. They will quote dictats using pluses and minuses without the understanding what these pluses and minuses mean.

I find that the one that know the least will use technical jargon to confuse and defuse a logical answers to a question. People do nor explain to the general public what to do. They talk about primary reinforcers, then secondary reinforcers we use + and - we talk about and I quote" But understanding and giving distance ie not allowing it to escalate is rewarding"

This is a forum not a university. explain what you mean do not use jargon and techno words and answers, let the general public understand what you are saying. I promise you the people that use this type of jargon do not impress me and secondly the general public just switch OFF.

Read any of my dozens of articles you will not see any jargon, no pluses and no minuses just the bare facts. That is why all my articles are in the very top of google searches. Have a look at this. Stan Rawlinson (Doglistener) amazing results in Google Rankings as a Dog Behaviourist Trainer


----------



## tripod

Stan if you can't keep up you don't have to be part of it  This was never directed at the simpletons you speak of but a specific discussion with a specific person on a specific issue - each of whom stated that we had moved on. Take the hint and move on too


----------



## tripod

A couple of excellent video clips looking at resolving puppy biting and teaching the pup what to do  this is the way to go!

YouTube - ‪How to Teach Your Puppy to Stop Nipping Using Clicker Training‬‎
YouTube - ‪Stop puppies biting- clicker dog training‬‎
YouTube - ‪How to stop leash biting- clicker dog training‬‎

Just remember to work on inhibiting the force of bites first before getting rid of biting altogether - this is the most important lesson to teach puppy


----------



## leashedForLife

tripod said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Just remember to *work on inhibiting the force of bites first before getting rid of biting altogether* -
> this is the most important lesson to teach puppy


yup! :thumbup: and U only have a small window in which to teach it, too...

on a related topic, *does anyone have a dog with the 'wrist-gene', LOL? for lack of a better term - 
when the dog has something to show U, wants something, needs water, whatever, they loosely grasp 
a human wrist with canines + incisors on the outside of the jaw-clasp, and draw the person to the area - 
the lost kitten, the leaking tub, the empty bowl, and so forth.

i know of 4 breeds where this is a well-known and often *maternal line* heritable trait - 
mum to daughter, to daughter, etc: GSDs, Scottish Deerhounds, BCs, and Rhodies.

does anyone have a dog who LEADS humans by the wrist, with a light jaw-clasp? 
if U do, what breed or sex is the dog? *

the wrist-gene is a very useful and IMO endearing trait - i have had GSDs who loved to do this, and i loved having 
the dog show me _____ - ya never knew what i might be! i would hate to see the wrist-gene suppressed entirely 
by absolute no-contact with teeth.

i have also been the proud + happy recipient of nibble-grooming when i had burrs or stick=-tights - more than once, 
while i cussed under my breath + picked wotsits off my pantslegs + sox, my dog would lend a helpful mouth.  the task goes faster with help!

JMO + IME, 
- terry


----------



## sue&harvey

leashedForLife said:


> yup! :
> on a related topic, *does anyone have a dog with the 'wrist-gene', LOL? for lack of a better term -
> when the dog has something to show U, wants something, needs water, whatever, they loosely grasp
> a human wrist with canines + incisors on the outside of the jaw-clasp, and draw the person to the area -
> the lost kitten, the leaking tub, the empty bowl, and so forth.
> 
> i know of 4 breeds where this is a well-known and often *maternal line* heritable trait -
> mum to daughter, to daughter, etc: GSDs, Scottish Deerhounds, BCs, and Rhodies.
> 
> does anyone have a dog who LEADS humans by the wrist, with a light jaw-clasp?
> if U do, what breed or sex is the dog? *
> 
> the wrist-gene is a very useful and IMO endearing trait - i have had GSDs who loved to do this, and i loved having
> the dog show me _____ - ya never knew what i might be! i would hate to see the wrist-gene suppressed entirely
> by absolute no-contact with teeth.
> 
> i have also been the proud + happy recipient of nibble-grooming when i had burrs or stick=-tights - more than once,
> while i cussed under my breath + picked wotsits off my pantslegs + sox, my dog would lend a helpful mouth.  the task goes faster with help!
> 
> JMO + IME,
> - terry


That does sound really quite sweet, Harvey sadly is not that subtle, generally it's a kick of the bowl, a bark or a whine, or a nose up the behind.  Now nibble grooming is a harvey speciality, if you need your ears cleaned, or hair brushing, then he is your man.
He is really gentle too  (Although a wet tongue in the ear really sends shivers down the spine :lol: )


----------



## RobD-BCactive

Before I respond to the postive criticism, which I am (due to foreign travel) slow to reply to.

Let me say, that I think beginning Basic Obedience Training with positive rewards, has not received enough emphasis in this thread. It gives the less confident a sense of control, and a way to manage the dog's excitement levels. Let's face it, most ppl coming into contact with a new puppy, are not expert dog handlers, but learning as they go. From what I have seen, people are leaving training to later, and missing an opportunity, whilst the puppy is developing its personality.

10 week old pups & younger can learn and can enjoy doing so!



leashedForLife said:


> effective management precludes the pup ever *developing* a jumping-up habit, so that behavior
> does not have to be erased - i give pups who are excitedly greeting very-little leash, or simply STAND ON IT


That's fine if everyone in contact with the pup does it. All I'll say is, a Border Collie pup can learn very quickly from just a couple of examples, that many people find the jump up "puppy" behaviour amusing, and actively encourage it. It is easy to control a puppy on leash, unfortunately their play on leash with other dogs tends to result in the owners doing a Morris dance to reduce entanglement.

I expect my dog not to jump up and behave politely off leash, not just in the controlled on leash situation.

In my experience, other Dog owners at parks, are very often the worst culprits and the least cooperative to polite requests to avoid rewarding this behaviour.

Whilst I do agree with the thrust of what you're saying, from what I have seen at dog obedience club, most owners on the course are teaching the post-puppy young adult loose leash walking and having to combat a whole range of bad habits that the dogs have got into, through the pet owners being more relaxed about things, than an experienced dog handler would be. So they are likely to have to address some habits, not just do it right first time, which I agree is the ideal.



> what sort of 'restraint' does this refer to, rob? :huh: human hands holding him?
> pinning him? what exactly? *thrashing risking injury* does not sound as tho he was being gated, tethered,
> or crated, that's for sure.


Actually it referred to being put on a lead and attempting what you suggested ... *shrug*
The reaction made this course appear to me, to be irresponsible in my judgement, though I am sure it has worked for plenty of people in the past.



> *tethering a wild-pup* for just 30 to 45-seconds can work miracles -
> the puppy wears the nylon-coated 12 to 18-inch MAX-length cable as a drag, and when the pup becomes unmanageable, clip the tether to an eye-bolt screwed to the baseboard, around a newel-post, to the leg of a hefty handy sofa, or etc; wait just a few seconds, back or SIDE to pup, release the pup as soon as they relax a bit.
> see here for tethering uses -
> Tethered to Success


I think dogs are individuals, and I was actually quite shocked by the reactions and behaviours I saw, it was outside of my previous experience with dogs and puppies.


> being able to startle a pup out of an undesirable behavior should be used with caution -
> the very pups who are easily deterred by a startling sound, movement, etc, are the very ones who will likely
> be made inordinately timid of novelty or of OFFERING behavior - they become very conservative in their actions,
> doing only those things they know are 'safe', not exploring novel objects or environments, etc - they shut-down.


I agree, but this is an anecdote thread, and most of the (non cruel) techniques suggested in this thread were tried and were back firing.

Distraction onto a play item totally failed as the pup was too intelligent and focussed on his target.

So there was a gradual escalation, and the success of the interruption via home made pebble shaker, allowing distraction onto play objects, with management of excitement levels via reward based obedience training, turned the situation round, and as it was the Dams first litter, and another pup was returned causing the Breeder to be anxious and to communicate with us, the consequences should we not have succeeded might have been serious.

*I am 100% sure we did the right thing, we acted sensitively and in a measured way, and after more popular recommendations in this thread failed.*


> i rarely use kibble for rewards!  i want enthusiasm, not _ho-hum, here we go again... _
> i only use kibble for CHEAP easy-to-motivate dogs like Beagles, :lol: the harder the work we are doing,


Border Collies just love working, puppy training treats with liver in proved too rich and provoked sickness, a lean mixture of treats to kibble, worked fine. Earning this meagre fair was an engrossing activity and no more enthusiasm was required.

Whilst the young dog, is more praise motivated now than before, he is I'm afraid much more reliable when there's some of this cheap kibble with training treat sweeteners around to earn, even if it's not proffered as reward on the majority of successful completions.


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## leashedForLife

Got Puppy Nipping? Take the Clicker Approach | Karen Pryor Clickertraining

U have to sign-up to read it - but its FREE + simple to do. 
U can sign-up for the newsletters, or not - they are optional. 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## hungry hector

Cloudy Star said:


> Hi, had our little pup Tess for about a week now and she is settling down really well with us, however, she is really nipping at our feet and legs. It tends to be worse when she is excited for example first thing in the morning when she is full of energy. She is a 9 week old Springer Spaniel.
> 
> Has anyone got and advice of techniques to stop her doing this. My feet are gonna get sore otherwise and my trousers will become shorts! :laugh:
> 
> Thanks


All puppies will explore their new world with their mouths and naturally will want to play with their mouths. Gently distract them with soft squeaky toys can help. Our PBGV, which are well known for play biting was, as he grew older gently discouraged with a water spray. This was recommended by our vet as a harmless 'stop'. It works really well when used as a final do not do this.

Enjoy your new puppy

All the best

[email protected]
yummy dog treats fresh from Cornwall


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## leashedForLife

hungry hector said:


> All puppies will explore their new world with their mouths and naturally will want to play with their mouths. Gently distract them with soft squeaky toys can help.


that's fine... 


hungry hector said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Our PBGV, which are well known for play biting was, as he grew older *gently discouraged with a water spray*.
> This was recommended by our vet as a harmless 'stop'. It works really well when used as a final do not do this.


that's Not fine. 
i don't care if it was recommended to U in a celestial vision at midnight during the dark of the moon, 
and the spirit-visitor left U a crystal skull as a memoriam - 
*there are enormous reasons NOT to recommend any aversives, to * all dogs * or * all pups *. * 
and BTW - the younger the dog, the more enormous the potential for fallout, which can be very long-lasting.

please see this thread for an extensive discussion 
Water Spraying unwanted behaviours - Pet Forums Community 
of why aversives, punishers, interruptors and corrections can ALL have bad repercussions - 
which unfortunately are unknown until *after* we use that aversive, punisher, interruptor or correction.


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## Jo C

Hi,
I am new to this site but I have a 12 week old Springer pup and just wanted to let you know his biting is getting better..I agree with all the ideas suggested but also we give him Ice cubes and cold carrots to help with his teething!
Jo


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## tashi

At the moment with all you trainers at loggerheads with one another these posts are going nowhere and are not helpful at all to any member fgs sort yourselves out and argue the toss in pms


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