# Do you have a licence to raw feed?



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I had always pooh paahed this notion, but apparently you are required to have a licence if you buy or are given any by products or waste from a shop or abattoir to feed your dog, you also need to declare if you transport it. The only reason I know is because I've been looking into getting one to do my own green tripe, since there seems to be a problem with suppliers at times. The licence is free, you just need to find your local AHVLA office, there's no home inspection or anything either.


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## Sezzastar (Oct 2, 2012)

Interesting!!! Never knew that!


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## Sezzastar (Oct 2, 2012)

:thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown:


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Please refer to the legislation where it states that meat (fit for and intended for human consumption from a butcher) requires the purchaser to have a special licence to a) buy it and b) transport it if the final user is a dog as opposed to a human.

Many thanks.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/byproducts/documents/en_2002R1774_do_001.pdf

There is some leeway for those who just feed the odd few bones from the butchers, but if you collect and transport enough to feed a number of dogs, you may need a licence, it seems to be a bit fuzzy. But since it's free, and no inspection is required, and it means you can transport and process green tripe (which is the main reason I looked into it) it's worth doing. It's not something you need to do if you buy ready to feed raw food from somewhere like natural instinct.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Yes I am aware of this document, and how it has been misinterpreted.

The key point is that you do not have to declare to anyone who or what the end user is.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Yes I am aware of this document, and how it has been misinterpreted.
> 
> The key point is that you do not have to declare to anyone who or what the end user is.


Depends who you speak to, if you actually phone the AHVLA, they will most likely suggest you complete the licence application if you collect a substantial amount of raw meat/bones/tripe. It's not as if they're making any money from it, so I can't personally see any ulterior motives, and since they deal with applications all of the time I'm prepared to take their word on whether I need to or not, I'm fairly sure they won't have misinterpreted the legislation. In any case, it's worth bringing to the attention of raw feeders just in case they feel they may need to register, or even if they just want to phone and find out what their local AHVLA office recommends.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Controls on animal by-products « Defra


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

So I have to have a license to feed raw?


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

SLB said:


> So I have to have a license to feed raw?


Having spoken to SL and read the guidelines I think it is recommended that if you buy and transport a large amount of 'waste' ie carcass etc then it is a good idea to have this (free) licence to stop any issues, however I woudl assume if you buy from DAF or somewhere like that it won't matter as they already have it.

To be fair I have had a couple of butchers in the past tell me they can't sell on stuff like that I just assumed they were grumpy as opposed to there been legislation possibly stopping them depending on how you look at it.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

There are two butchers in my village, one of which has their own abattoir. The one that doesn't has told me they cannot supply me with green tripe as they are not allowed it on the same lorry as food for human consumption

The one with the abattoir transports their own I assume and gets it for me no problem. However when I had the pups I asked if they would mince the tripe but they said they couldn't as it was waste therefore not allowed in the mincer used for human meat even though it's thoroughly cleaned between different meats


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Anything sold in a butcher cannot possible be not intended for human consumption, otherwise it wouldn't be in the butcher's shop! Any animal in a butcher's shop was slaughtered for humans to eat so buying some chicken carcasses or wing tips they've finished chopping bits off can't be animal by products. 

Couldn't comment on green tripe, but I think this is scaremongering a bit.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BoredomBusters said:


> Anything sold in a butcher cannot possible be not intended for human consumption, otherwise it wouldn't be in the butcher's shop! Any animal in a butcher's shop was slaughtered for humans to eat so buying some chicken carcasses or wing tips they've finished chopping bits off can't be animal by products.
> 
> Couldn't comment on green tripe, but I think this is scaremongering a bit.


Surely most stuff sold in a butchers is intended for human consumtion 

I think the problem is the back door trade, and I've used it myself where butchers aren't aware, or don't care about you having the correct permissions. If you're buying a few bones over the counter, as I've said, it's not a problem, but I get about 8 trays a week of mixed carcasses, and want to process my own green tripe. I've been advised, when I enquired about it, that I needed a licence, and plenty of others who raw feed might possibly need a licence as well. Hence the thread and the question. Why do you think it's scare mongering, there's no threat attached to the thread anywhere?


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Surely most stuff sold in a butchers is intended for human consumtion


Yes, that's what I said.... Sorry I think it's scaremongering, as you might put people off buying things in case they get into trouble.



> I think the problem is the back door trade, and I've used it myself where butchers aren't aware, or don't care about you having the correct permissions. If you're buying a few bones over the counter, as I've said, it's not a problem, but I get about 8 trays a week of mixed carcasses, and want to *process* my own green tripe. I've been advised, when I enquired about it, that I needed a licence, and plenty of others who raw feed might possibly need a licence as well. Hence the thread and the question. Why do you think it's scare mongering, there's no threat attached to the thread anywhere?


I think that's the word there, that needs a licence - you are talking about processing, rather than just buying some stuff to feed your dogs as it is. I may be wrong as to your intentions what you are doing with the food, but that word stood out, and people are already sounding a bit worried!


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

BoredomBusters said:


> Anything sold in a butcher cannot possible be not intended for human consumption, otherwise it wouldn't be in the butcher's shop! Any animal in a butcher's shop was slaughtered for humans to eat so buying some chicken carcasses or wing tips they've finished chopping bits off can't be animal by products.
> 
> Couldn't comment on green tripe, but I think this is scaremongering a bit.


But my Butcher specifically requests things in from the abboitoir for me, he wouldn't normally sell testicles or lung or other strange bits he gets me so where do you stand with that? i appreciate that things like bones used for stock etc, however whenI have been to the butchers and I have 2 trays of carcasses 3 full sets of lamb ribs 2 trays of lamb bones a huge bag of chicken feet, the inner ear of god knows how many pigs, a load of lung and testicles to name a few I think it becomes pretty clear its not for human consumation.

I know a few people that get pig pluck the pancreas, trachea, lungs etc surely they aren't for human consumption?

And why is it scaremongering, its a free bit of paper for people that may or may not be interested.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Apparently lungs are called 'lights' when for humans in my neck of the woods at least. Trotters are used for pork cheese. Not that I could try either of those personally


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BoredomBusters said:


> Anything sold in a butcher cannot possible be not intended for human consumption, otherwise it wouldn't be in the butcher's shop! Any animal in a butcher's shop was slaughtered for humans to eat so buying some chicken carcasses or wing tips they've finished chopping bits off can't be animal by products.
> 
> Couldn't comment on green tripe, but I think this is scaremongering a bit.


What you're saying is buying stuff from a butchers that isn't intended for human consumption. All of the stuff I get is intended for human consumption, including green tripe, bones are often used for stock by restaurants and similar.



BoredomBusters said:


> Yes, that's what I said.... Sorry I think it's scaremongering, as you might put people off buying things in case they get into trouble.
> 
> I think that's the word there, that needs a licence - you are talking about processing, rather than just buying some stuff to feed your dogs as it is. I may be wrong as to your intentions what you are doing with the food, but that word stood out, and people are already sounding a bit worried!


Where have I put people off 

I think I've explained it fairly accurately, and given links, as have others. And no, it's not about processing food, you need to speak to your AHVLA representative to see if you need to apply, but whether you mince something after taking it home is nothing to do with the legislation, and transportation in itself may need a licence. As I've said numerous times if you do need a licence it's free, and you don't need an inspection, so what's the problem?


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## Sezzastar (Oct 2, 2012)

Look.. Just get the damn licence :incazzato: Its free!!!! :mad5:

:lol::lol::lol:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sezzastar said:


> Look.. Just get the damn licence :incazzato: Its free!!!! :mad5:
> 
> :lol::lol::lol:


I have sent off the forms so should get them back shortly, no need for drama 

The only reason I posted was to make people aware they may need to get a licence if they buy or are given large amounts of raw meat/products from a butchers or abattoir. It's a simple matter of registering the documents, and judging from the way the guy spoke to me, there are plenty of people who do register.

If anyone feels the need to apply, the form you need is AB117 "Notification of Registration for the Generation, Transportation, Handling, Processing, Storage, Placing on the Market, Distribution, use or Disposal of Animal by-Products (ABPs) or Derived Products Under the Requirements of Article 23 of Regulation (EC) No. 1069/2009"


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

SO far what I found was a list pet businesses (zoo, kennels) which should have a licence. Is anybody can point where is state that dog (or any other pet owner) needs that licence?


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

2 small freezers worth wouldn't need a licence. I'm happy


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Andromeda said:


> SO far what I found was a list pet businesses (zoo, kennels) which should have a licence. Is anybody can point where is state that dog (or any other pet owner) needs that licence?


I think I've explained several times, if you buy a few bones, or from a pet food manufacturer, you don't need to apply. If you buy and do your own raw food with bones/meat/offal from butchers or abattoirs, then you *should* register by applying using the licence form AB117 as I said in my last post. It's up to you if you want to, there would probably be no consequences if you don't.As I use two butchers and an abattoir, it's simply good practice to cover my butt by registering.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SLB said:


> 2 small freezers worth wouldn't need a licence. I'm happy


 It's not about quantity, it's about how your source raw food for your dogs, if you buy all your raw from a butchers or abattoir, from what the guy told me from the AHVLA you *should* register, not just for the use of animal by products, but also for transporting it, if you collect it in your car. If you buy it from a pet food manufacturer or supplier, they will already have a licence


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Surely most stuff sold in a butchers is intended for human consumtion
> 
> I think the problem is the back door trade, and I've used it myself where butchers aren't aware, or don't care about you having the correct permissions. If you're buying a few bones over the counter, as I've said, it's not a problem, but I get about 8 trays a week of mixed carcasses, and want to process my own green tripe. I've been advised, when I enquired about it, that I needed a licence, and plenty of others who raw feed might possibly need a licence as well. Hence the thread and the question. Why do you think it's scare mongering, there's no threat attached to the thread anywhere?


Assume green tripe is different issue as thats not for human consumption is it? but the carcases you could be a frugal person making yourself gallons of stock 



LexiLou2 said:


> But my Butcher specifically requests things in from the abboitoir for me, he wouldn't normally sell testicles or lung or other strange bits he gets me so where do you stand with that? i appreciate that things like bones used for stock etc, however whenI have been to the butchers and I have 2 trays of carcasses 3 full sets of lamb ribs 2 trays of lamb bones a huge bag of chicken feet, the inner ear of god knows how many pigs, a load of lung and testicles to name a few I think it becomes pretty clear its not for human consumation.
> 
> I know a few people that get pig pluck the pancreas, trachea, lungs etc surely they aren't for human consumption?And why is it scaremongering, its a free bit of paper for people that may or may not be interested.


Yes they can be, isn't sweetbreads a fancy name for testicles?  Was watching the GT British Food Revival few weeks ago and it was all about offal and the amount of food we waste and he was cooking with all that sort of stuff.

Can see why you might need a licence if transporting loads as you could be selling it


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Assume green tripe is different issue as thats not for human consumption is it? but the carcases you could be a frugal person making yourself gallons of stock
> 
> Yes they can be, isn't sweetbreads a fancy name for testicles?  Was watching the GT British Food Revival few weeks ago and it was all about offal and the amount of food we waste and he was cooking with all that sort of stuff.
> 
> Can see why you might need a licence if transporting loads as you could be selling it


There's actually a problem getting hold of green tripe at the moment, as a lot of it is being exported to Eastern Europe, they love it over there apparently! I'm sure they clean it up first. Hence why I'm going to buy my own and mince it, Lexilou2 and Terencesmum are joining in as a sort of mini co-operative, as well as Rhuna's breeder.

It's not about selling it on either, it's about tracking meat and offal that *could* be diseased or contaminated, so that if we have yet another break out of foot and mouth, or similar, they know who has a licence and disposes of animal by products by processing it in some way, or feeding it to their dogs. They only inspect premises that deal with large quantities, but do register anyone who deals with raw feeding their own dogs and other animals. There's a part on the form that allows registration for reptile owners as well


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## Barkley Star (Feb 10, 2012)

Maybe some one who has talked to the authorities can answer this: What if you buy raw food from supermarkets? This is clearly intended for human consumption and usually well packaged for transport.

If and when I source a butcher, I will probably get the licence, if nothing else because it's another potential obstacle that might be sorted by being registered.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

I know this is an old thread - I just searched for it. I asked the local abattoir about green tripe yesterday, they say I need a licence to buy it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Registration of operators, establishments or plants « Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency

"*Any operator*, establishment or plant that generates, transports, handles, processes, stores, places on the market, distributes, uses or disposes of animal by-products or derived products must be registered before commencing operations. This requirement is detailed in Article 23 of the EU Control Regulation."

So that includes anyone, not just businesses.


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

Isn't it a waste of time, how will it be enforced. EH struggle to enforce the picking up of dog poo. And to what benefit?

And how is a 'large amount' defined?

Don't think I'll bother.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

I found this bit interesting:



> (l) Allowing category 3 material to be fed to pets: Article 16(g)
> The UK intends to take advantage of this derogation subject to certain
> conditions.
> Category 3 animal by-products may be supplied as raw material for feeding to
> ...


Source: http://www.organics-recycling.org.uk/uploads/article1938/abp-guidance-110303.pdf

Although that isn't saying that the person transporting it doesn't need a licence to do so, I guess.

I'm just going to get one... Whether people think it's necessary or not, I can't buy tripe from here without it!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Barkley Star said:


> Maybe some one who has talked to the authorities can answer this: What if you buy raw food from supermarkets? This is clearly intended for human consumption and usually well packaged for transport.
> 
> If and when I source a butcher, I will probably get the licence, if nothing else because it's another potential obstacle that might be sorted by being registered.


Buying meat from a supermarket intended for human consumption isn't covered by this licence; it covers people who want to collect and store meat and by products from abattoirs and their butchers. It's simply a record of who in which areas are transporting and storing meat by products, which is important in case there is ever another outbreak of something like foot and mouth, or BSE. I'm quite glad that my details are kept on record, so I'll know straight away if there are any problems with the transportation and storage of this type of by product.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

nickmcmechan said:


> Isn't it a waste of time, how will it be enforced. EH struggle to enforce the picking up of dog poo. *And to what benefit?*
> 
> And how is a 'large amount' defined?
> 
> Don't think I'll bother.


I think it probably depends on how you want to source the raw food. I know of a fair few raw feeders who approached abbatoirs and were declined unless they got this license. Since they wanted to source most of their items from abbatoirs to keep costs down, they applied for the license.


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