# German Shepherd/Akita/Corgi puppies!!!



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Ive just seen this on good old FB
https://www.facebook.com/Officialge...271513289389/1668342993382240/?type=3&theater
Ive seen some odd breeding but this is beyond strange
Anyone else seen these before?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Good grief. Looks like a bear cub


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Wow, I have to admit this pup does look rather strange, and that's coming from someone who rarely finds any cross/breed strange looking!  I think it's the ear carriage and that hair on top. What a mixture!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

wtf is wrong with people........


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

ClaireLouise said:


> View attachment 250471
> 
> Ive just seen this on good old FB
> https://www.facebook.com/Officialge...271513289389/1668342993382240/?type=3&theater
> ...


Good grief, what an odd looking pup. 
I have nothing against crosses (when they're not touted as "designer") but... why this mix? I don't get what the breeder was hoping to achieve. Saying that, perhaps it was accidental.

And the more I look at it, the less I can't decide if it's cute or not!


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Katalyst said:


> Good grief, what an odd looking pup.
> I have nothing against crosses (when they're not touted as "designer") but... why this mix? I don't get what the breeder was hoping to achieve. Saying that, perhaps it was accidental.
> 
> And the more I look at it, the less I can't decide if it's cute or not!


Thats my point too, the more I look at it the more confused I am.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Some of the comments are interesting, some are annoying and some are downright ignorant. Genetic diversity making for better health has raised its ugly head


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

looks more like a baby bear to me


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Siskin said:


> Some of the comments are interesting, some are annoying and some are downright ignorant. Genetic diversity making for better health has raised its ugly head


Urgh....

I see red everytime anyone mentions 'hybrid vigour' which is usually the next comment following one about genetic diversity.
I mean... Hybrid?! Since when was crossing different breeds within the same species hybridising for goodness sake?!


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Siskin said:


> Some of the comments are interesting, some are annoying and some are downright ignorant. Genetic diversity making for better health has raised its ugly head


Yeah, I did start reading the comments then gave in lol, I saw the usual one, better health, akitas are fighting dog and are mean, etc blahh blahh blahh


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## snickypoo (Jul 16, 2014)

If you go down to the woods today.............:Bear


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2015)

Is that a puppy or a bear cub. Agree with the others odd breeding there bear cup lookalike.


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## Shikoku (Dec 16, 2013)

This is her as an adult, probably doesn't look as you'd expect and this is her story from her owners


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Shikoku said:


> This is her as an adult, probably doesn't look as you'd expect and this is her story from her owners


She turned into quite the looker! 
Such a shame she had such a poor start. At least she wound up in caring hands.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Katalyst said:


> Urgh....
> 
> I see red everytime anyone mentions 'hybrid vigour' which is usually the next comment following one about genetic diversity.
> I mean... Hybrid?! Since when was crossing different breeds within the same species hybridising for goodness sake?!


In science and agriculture hybrid vigour to describe the better health/yield you get by breeding animals or plants of different varieties not different species. Hybrid vigour is a proven fact. Closed registrations and popular sires are against this.

You can look at studies such as Prevalence of inherited disorders among mixed-breed and purebred dogs: 27,254 cases (1995-2010) or B.N. Bonnett, A. Egenvall, P. Olson, A. Hedhammar, _Mortality in Swedish dogs: rates and causes of death in various breeds_, The Veterinary Record, 1997 which show hybrid vigour can make a difference in dogs.

Of course that doesn't mean mix = healthy. Any breeder should breed responsibly. However the acceptance rather than denial of hybrid vigour could make a huge difference to the health of even pure breeds.

Interesting how even the KC charge less for health insurance for mixes than for purebreeds


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I also saw this photo on Facebook. Bizarre.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Goblin said:


> In science and agriculture hybrid vigour to describe the better health/yield you get by breeding animals or plants of different varieties not different species. Hybrid vigour is a proven fact. Closed registrations and popular sires are against this.
> 
> You can look at studies such as Prevalence of inherited disorders among mixed-breed and purebred dogs: 27,254 cases (1995-2010) or B.N. Bonnett, A. Egenvall, P. Olson, A. Hedhammar, _Mortality in Swedish dogs: rates and causes of death in various breeds_, The Veterinary Record, 1997 which show hybrid vigour can make a difference in dogs.
> 
> ...


You've missed my point a little I think. I am not really making myself clear tonight.
Crossing unrelated animals is going to improve genetic stability IF healthy parent animals are used as foundation stock, yes. 
The crossing of unrelated animals of different breeds within the same species is however absolutely not hybridising. It's just outcrossing.
I am not sure when the term started being used so erroneously but it clearly stuck!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Katalyst said:


> The crossing of unrelated animals of different breeds within the same species is however absolutely not hybridising. It's just outcrossing.
> I am not sure when the term started being used so erroneously but it clearly stuck!


In science and agriculture across all animals and plants, "hybrid vigour" <> only different species. Definition of the term is based on genetic differences. In fact I don't know of a dictionary which singles out species as the exclusive definition of hybrid vigour.


Increased vigor or other superior qualities arising from the crossbreeding of genetically different plants or animals. Also called heterosis
The tendency of a cross-bred individual to show qualities superior to those of both parents.
The increased vigor or general health, resistance to disease, and other superior qualities that are often manifested in hybrid organisms, especially plants and animals.

Just looking a the term_ Hybrid _doesn't define it as being exclusive to species either.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

That is a dictionary definition explaining the term hybrid in terms of vigour yes.
Scientifically speaking, a hybrid is the resultant offspring from a cross of animals (or plants) from different taxa (so interspecific hybrids).
Crosses of different species within the same taxa are intergrades.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Katalyst said:


> That is a dictionary definition explaining the term hybrid in terms of vigour yes.


Even from your limited argument purely on your definition of hybrid rather than hybrid vigour, it's an acceptable term, in common usage. One which has been proven to potentially improve health.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Even from your limited argument purely on your definition of hybrid rather than hybrid vigour, it's an acceptable term, in common usage. One which has been proven to potentially improve health.


My post isn't my definition of a hybrid. It's a scientific one. As diverse as dog breeds are, they are all still the same taxa. Crossing them does not result in a hybrid. It results in a cross breed.
I am well aware that is is a commonly used term when describing cross breeds. It's just not a strictly accurate use of the term. I am also not for a second suggesting that carefully managed outcrossing isn't essential to maintaining enough genetic diversity within a species to ensure its long term viability. I do this for a living and see it in practice just as I have seen the results of too many years of inbreeding and in various species and how much damage this has done. Outcrossing is essential to ethical and viable breeding efforts. 
I'm not sure what wires are getting crossed here so I'll leave it at that. Perhaps my tramadol brain is muddling my words.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2015)

Katalyst said:


> My post isn't my definition of a hybrid. It's a scientific one. As diverse as dog breeds are, they are all still the same taxa. Crossing them does not result in a hybrid. It results in a cross breed.
> I am well aware that is is a commonly used term when describing cross breeds. It's just not a strictly accurate use of the term. I am also not for a second suggesting that carefully managed outcrossing isn't essential to maintaining enough genetic diversity within a species to ensure its long term viability. I do this for a living and see it in practice just as I have seen the results of too many years of inbreeding and in various species and how much damage this has done. Outcrossing is essential to ethical and viable breeding efforts.
> I'm not sure what wires are getting crossed here so I'll leave it at that. Perhaps my tramadol brain is muddling my words.


You're making sense 
Genetic diversity is very important but you can create diversity without creating hybrids. 
Hybrid is different species. Wolf X dog is a hybrid. Poodle X lab is a cross breed. 
If there is an isolated wolf pack that needs added genetic diversity, you bring in wolves from other areas, you don't bring in dogs.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

ouesi said:


> You're making sense
> Genetic diversity is very important but you can create diversity without creating hybrids.
> Hybrid is different species. Wolf X dog is a hybrid. Poodle X lab is a cross breed.
> If there is an isolated wolf pack that needs added genetic diversity, you bring in wolves from other areas, you don't bring in dogs.


Thank you. This is what I was trying and clearly failing to get across. 
Just because 'hybrid' is commonly used terminology to discribe cross breeds doesn't make it accurate. I know I am sort of splitting hairs as far as Joe Public is ever going to be concerned but it is something that has always bugged me.


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## Papirats (Mar 26, 2014)

Russ would like to inform everyone that the dilution of Corg is outrageous. He says they're GSDs on short legs anyway


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Siskin said:


> Some of the comments are interesting, some are annoying and some are downright ignorant. Genetic diversity making for better health has raised its ugly head


Nothing ugly about genetic diversity making for better health. It's well proven, even down to invertebrates.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

very cute puppy....would of made an awesome cuddly toy!

sounds like a weird cross but it grew up to be a nice looking dog. At least the owners shared their story of why BYBs are such a mistake....although more then one person has let their heart rule their head in this situation!


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## StrawberryBlonde (May 27, 2015)

Wow, wasn't keen on the look of the puppy but she's grown up looking beautiful! 
Side note: I saw a corgi x husky once, basically a husky head on a corgis body...very strange.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> You're making sense
> Genetic diversity is very important but you can create diversity without creating hybrids.
> Hybrid is different species. Wolf X dog is a hybrid. Poodle X lab is a cross breed.
> If there is an isolated wolf pack that needs added genetic diversity, you bring in wolves from other areas, you don't bring in dogs.


Again, not according to dictionary definition which means it's fine for normal public use. The key thing is hybrid vigour as used is fact. Trying to quibble over definition is simply diverting and hiding the issue.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Looks a bit like a big version of Teddy as a puppy.....










You can see how he got his name!


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

I am not sure what to make of it. Its kind of cute in a way and frankly there are one or two far rougher looking pure breeds out there. I just hope this particular cross has good genes and no health issues. Its NOT a hybrid despite the definition in the dictionary.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Again, not according to dictionary definition which means it's fine for normal public use. The key thing is hybrid vigour as used is fact. Trying to quibble over definition is simply diverting and hiding the issue.


Who's quibbling over definitions?

The fact is, very often hybrids tend to be less viable. Mules are sterile, despite the fact that we have been creating them for hundreds of year, we've yet to create a viable equine hybrid. 
In the wild, coy dogs and wolf dogs don't survive well. 
There is one group of coyote X wolves that seem to be taking off and scientists are fascinated by them because of the anomaly that they represent.

Genetic diversity is very important to all species, and everything from fungi to humans have adaptations that ensure genetic diversity. 
It's two separate things


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Yet, hybrid vigour and spreading of genes is a proven fact within the dog world. Semantics aside, that is what it is called and that is what is frequently denied by pedigree breeders who are so keen to keep their bloodlines "pure". One of the most common arguments.. "It's not hybrid vigour".


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Why is this dog everywhere I look? No one knows what it is they got it off the freeads. It looks more like a collie mix than anything as an adult.

And surprise look who shows up to condemn purebreeding even when it wasn't mentioned in the first place


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Yet, hybrid vigour and spreading of genes is a proven fact within the dog world. Semantics aside, that is what it is called and that is what is frequently denied by pedigree breeders who are so keen to keep their bloodlines "pure". One of the most common arguments.. "It's not hybrid vigour".


I'm not a pedigree breeder so take this for what it's worth...
IME it's not keeping lines "pure" that's being argued, it's that just randomly adding in dogs isn't the answer.
Genetic diversity matters, yes. But you don't improve genetics by adding in diseased dogs to a diseased gene pool. Nor does it help to add in additional genetic problems while trying to fix other ones.
Breeding healthy dogs means you start with a healthy dog, who's line is well researched and tested so you know not only the dog you're breeding, but what's behind that dog too. Then you add in another equally healthy dog from known lines where you know what is behind that dog and know you're not adding in problems while trying to solve them. 
I have no problem with breeding cross breeds as long as it is done intelligently.
I do have a problem with just throwing two unknown factors together and claiming they'll be healthier than a purebred because of "hybrid vigor". Genetics doesn't work that way.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> it's that just randomly adding in dogs isn't the answer.


Can agree totally with you there. There are many examples of attrocious breed combinations. Complex subject but see any purebreed discussion where hybrid vigour is mentioned and it's jumped on as being false. One of the arguments is that it isn't applicable as breeds are not different species therefore it doesn't make any difference. Look at the anti-outcross discussions and it denial of hybrid vigour can help when used appropriately. It's not a solution for everything. Like health tests, it's a possible useful tool.

Good thoughful breeding is essential for health of any dog be it pedigree, designer, cross or mongrel.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I don't think hybrid vigour is false - it's a scientifically proven phenomenon - but nor is it guaranteed. Not every cross between genetically distinct individuals results in heterosis, nor does it automatically make the offspring superior.

I suppose, when it comes to dog breeds, we're always talking about _Canis lupus familiaris_. While I'm no geneticist, I can't see the effects of crossing - or hybridisation if you will - being as dramatic either way as breeding hybrids from two different species, such as a coydog for example.

I would also expect a difference in the health of a true 'Heinz 57'-type mongrel and a straight cross between two well established breeds. Surely you can't put a Newfoundland to a St Bernard and expect the risk of hip dysplasia in the pups to be significantly lower than the parents simply because of hybrid vigour?


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## Corgi de Lafayette (Apr 9, 2017)

Katalyst said:


> You've missed my point a little I think. I am not really making myself clear tonight.
> Crossing unrelated animals is going to improve genetic stability IF healthy parent animals are used as foundation stock, yes.
> The crossing of unrelated animals of different breeds within the same species is however absolutely not hybridising. It's just outcrossing.
> I am not sure when the term started being used so erroneously but it clearly stuck!


Imagine if this dog was human it is and I am not trying to be rude but it is like your criticizing a child who looks different than everyone else so stop being rude this dog is beautiful and majestic.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2017)

Corgi de Lafayette said:


> Imagine if this dog was human it is and I am not trying to be rude but it is like your criticizing a child who looks different than everyone else so stop being rude this dog is beautiful and majestic.


Hi Corgi, welcome to PF  
Was this the post you intended to reply to? There is nothing in the post referring to any specific dog or their looks. 
People have different opinions about aesthetics in dogs. It's okay  And dogs don't really care either way


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Corgi de Lafayette said:


> Imagine if this dog was human it is and I am not trying to be rude but it is like your criticizing a child who looks different than everyone else so stop being rude this dog is beautiful and majestic.


It's not human.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Corgi de Lafayette said:


> Imagine if this dog was human it is and I am not trying to be rude but it is like your criticizing a child who looks different than everyone else so stop being rude this dog is beautiful and majestic.


That's a very strange opinion to have taken from my post and I have said nothing of the sort :/
This is a DOG. Not a human. So your analogy doesn't compute.

Aside from that, the only person I'd ever consider criticise here is the breeder for producing such a bizarre mix. The dog is here and alive and deserves the best home available. 
I say this as the kid that looked different to the others too......


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I worry more about a large dog being put to a small bitch. For all the obvious reasons.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2017)

Mirandashell said:


> I worry more about a large dog being put to a small bitch. For all the obvious reasons.


Does it say if the dam was the corgi?

I remember a while back someone bred a rottie to a frenchie (I think, or something equally ridiculous) and the dam was the smaller dog. Awful 

I also take issue with breeding such diverse temperaments and traits. Leads to a dog with lots of conflicting drives which is not pleasant for the dog either


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2017)

Poor dog, what a sad story. Glad he/she has good people now.


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