# Can you ruin a bitch's pedigree by mating her with a cross



## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

I own a Dogue de Bordeaux, who was accidently mated with a Bullmastiff. I feel really bad about this as I believe purebred dogs have a bit of a better chance at a better home.
The problem I have got is someone I know has told me, now she has been mated with a Bullmastiff it will ruin her pedigree if I ever wanted to breed with her in the future. To me this sounds stupid, this person likes to think she is a expert on dogs and was adamant so just checking. 

Thank you


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Err no, no matter what dog she is bred with she will still continue to be a dogue de bordeaux. Her pups on the other hand won't.

Are you getting the mismate??


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Welcome

If they mean will she produce cross breds in future matings with a DDB then no she wont.

When was she accidently mated? Your vet can give her a mis mate jab and then if when she is old enough, had and passed all her health tests for DDB's then maybe consider mating her then to a suitable health tested stud.

So the answer to your question is that your friend is wrong but seriously you should consider the mis mate jab.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

felicitycp said:


> The problem I have got is someone I know has told me, now she has been mated with a Bullmastiff it will ruin her pedigree if I ever wanted to breed with her in the future. To me this sounds stupid, this person likes to think she is a expert on dogs and was adamant so just checking.


It is stupid..... and was something believed by breeders over 100 years ago - it was called Telegony, and before people knew about genetics, they genuinely believed that a pure bred female animal (any species) mated by another breed, would ruin future litters as they would never be 'pure' because she had been 'contaminated' by another breed.... the sire would have inflence over every and all offspring produced by that female for evermore....... :blink:

I think the minute you realise this only applied to *female* animals - not the males, who could mate with whatever they liked!! - you can begin to see the idiocy of it! Seriously, it was a well-held belief throughout the Victorian era.

And just to make sure - it's definitely not true!


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

I own a Dogue de Bordeaux, who was accidently mated with a Bullmastiff. I feel really bad about this as I believe purebred dogs have a bit of a better chance at a better home.
The problem I have got is someone I know has told me, now she has been mated with a Bullmastiff it will ruin her pedigree if I ever wanted to breed with her in the future. To me this sounds stupid, this person likes to think she is a expert on dogs and was adamant so just checking. 

Thank you


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Hi,

Answers in your previous thread Hun


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Personally I'd have her at the vet for the mismate injection to abort the puppies. The last thing needed in the world is another litter of unhealth tested crossbreeds. 
Technically her pedigree remains unaltered as a pedigree is only the dogs behind her, but you will never get the chance to use a decent stud if they find out she has already had an unregistered litter. No stud owner will ever trust that you are doing it for the right reasons.


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

Thank you everyone, I knew I was right but this person was really quite aggressive with her view. I had heard about the theory.

Unfortunately I didn't have the jab, because the dog got hold of her only a few days into her season, I didn't think she could get caught. But she did, she has now had 9 gorgeous puppies who are very healthy and she is a great mum. 

I feel bad at the min because I love the pups so much, and just want them to go to good homes. I know my view on purebred dogs going to better homes is wrong because I have rehomed purebred dogs before from very poor homes.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I hope you find lovely homes for them, I have an English Mastiff/DDB myself


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Has anyone told you...PICS are a must. I would screen your new owners the same as you would with a purebred litter, some people just want a happy healthy dog and don't want a purebred some people want a particular breed. I would state in a bill of sale (if your able) that you would take them back if necessary and rehome them charge a reasonable price and have their first shots and a vet check done. This seems to believe it or not encourage the new owners to continue with the shots and vet care...Congrats on the pups BTW....Jill


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

It won't ruin her pedigree - you can't change her genetics by crossing her with another dog! But you should really get her to the vets to get a mismate jab ASAP - this will stop an unwanted pregnancy - especially if both dogs have not had all their relevant health checks - prospective owners will ask what health tests they have had and will be put off with the fact it was an accident and nothing was done!! How old is your bitch?
Or you could get her speyed if she is early on in the pregnancy - it is more risky for her but better than having a whole load of unwanted mixed bred puppies - yes a pedigree pup from fully health tested parents has more of a chance of a home but it is still no guarantee.
Also big breed dogs are very hard to sell at the moment - most are ending up in shelters as people don't want them, did you see Panorama the other night?!! - so a large breed crossbred is even more unlikely to find a home. 
Be prepared to have 10 pups or more that you end up having to keep! It will cost you an absolute bomb to feed them too, I know our litter of ridgebacks we had 3 yrs ago were getting through 15kgs of James Wellbeloved puppy biscuits every 3 days @ £45 per bag!, along with several pints of goats milk a day, and we broke the washing machine just trying to keep up with the 3 washes a day all their bedding and toys needed!!! And we sold the last one at 14 weeks old, we had a good few to take to the vets at 8 weeks old for their jabs and microchips so was very costly, plus the £1000 stud fee, health tests etc and all the advertising - we did put aside a good few grand before hand which was lucky!!!! 

You also need to set aside plenty of cash incase your bitch ends up having to have a c-section - which a lot of these broad headed breeds have to have, as the pups are too big to fit down the birth canal!! I hope you don't work too as they will need 24/7 care from before birth till they are about 8 weeks old!
The vets where I used to work had 3 dogue de bordeaux bitches in for c-sections, 1 bitch had only 1 surviving pup out of 8 - she had 4 deformed ones too which had got stuck, so do be prepared!!
I have got a dogue de bordeaux x malamute - he came from an accidental litter of 12, luckily both parents were health tested, but they were really hard pushed to even give them away, I think the last one went at 18 weeks!


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

If I did this correctly I have merged the 2 threads together...lol...Jill


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

I am going to screen new owners, I have already told 2 people to get lost. I was also going to offer to take them back if they need rehoming. I didn't know to charge more to try and get better owners or less?

It has taken me by surprise how much I love them so quickly, they are only 5 days old. I had a close bond with my dog but it seems to have brought us closer too.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

felicitycp said:


> I am going to screen new owners, I have already told 2 people to get lost. I was also going to offer to take them back if they need rehoming. I didn't know to charge more to try and get better owners or less?


Money is no guide to a good owner.

Merlin was advertised at £250 (for a cross breed they said was accidental). He chose me and I was very upfront with his mum's owner.... I said I could only scrape together £150 if they would consider that, but he would have a very conscientious home and the best life I could possibly give a dog.

They agreed 2 weeks later as they were having trouble selling the pups, and he had not gelled with any of the other people who viewed the litter. At least one of the 6 pups has ended up in rescue within 6 months - I see her locally and she has a lot of behavioural issues - her buyers were people who had the money upfront, talked the talk, but kept the puppy shut away in a flat and was never socialised.

Merlin on the other hand, has a good life, travels 1,000 miles a year on trains and buses, got his KC Silver award and trained for Gold, and has appeared on national TV twice, tried HTM and agility and I would sell my soul rather than give him up.

Cash does not a good owner make..... All the 'expensive' dogs in rescue will tell you that.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

My OH told me Luna and the rest of the litter were going at £500 each. The mum had 13 pups!!!! 

He got her for £300 and she's had a lovely life with us... no idea what happened to the rest of the pups. I do wonder about them often as I have spent 10 months trying to retrain her dog aggression and think this will be a lifelong battle!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> she has now had 9 gorgeous puppies who are very healthy and she is a great mum


I am guessing because it was an 'accidental' mating you have not had her health tested so there is no way you can know whether or not they will have inherited any problems which are unlikely to appear until they are mature. I would suggest you strongly advice your new owners (when you get them) to take out a good lifetime insurance cover. I understand hip displasia is common in this breed and this can be painful and very expensive to treat - treatment can run into £1000's so they will need good insurance cover.


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

She has'nt had any test's done, but her parents did, which were good with low hip scores. The Bullmastiff has had test's and his parents did and they were all good.

The deed happened when I went to meet a breeder, I had previously rehomed a dog of his. I understand about money, I have 1 male DDB who I rehomed, his owners paid £1000 for him and had him 3-4 months and wanted to get rid!! unfortunately in that time alot of problems were created and if I had'nt of homed him he would of been put to sleep.

Artalex I am lucky enough to work from home and are currently taking shifts with my hubby with who stays with them. I am also very lucky because my bitch is a absolutely brillant Mum and cares for them perfectly. They are very hard work though but I love them dearly. I can't understand how some people think it is easy money to breed dogs.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> She has'nt had any test's done, but her parents did, which were good with low hip scores. The Bullmastiff has had test's and his parents did and they were all good.


I'm afraid that's not enough.

Was this poor girl of yours also a rescue/rehome?


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

She was a rehome, but I would'nt class her as a poor girl. As I have said this was a accident and was not meant to happen. I am just trying to do my best in a bad situation.

I have 4 dogs who are all part of my family. There care and well being is my upmost concern.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> She was a rehome, but I would'nt class her as a poor girl. As I have said this was a accident and was not meant to happen. I am just trying to do my best in a bad situation.


But you were talking about breeding from her in the future.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> But you were talking about breeding from her in the future.


I don't think she was, just that someone told her if she ever did breed from her then the pedigree would be ruined? It sounded more like the OP was just interested in the truth behind this to me? I could be wrong - i'm tierd and hyped up on haribo :lol: x


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

felicitycp said:


> I own a Dogue de Bordeaux, who was accidently mated with a Bullmastiff. I feel really bad about this as I believe purebred dogs have a bit of a better chance at a better home.
> The problem I have got is someone I know has told me, now she has been mated with a Bullmastiff it will ruin her pedigree *if I ever wanted to breed with her in the future.* To me this sounds stupid, this person likes to think she is a expert on dogs and was adamant so just checking.
> 
> Thank you


If. Not for definate. If


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I would do all i could to protect these pups from falling into the wrong hands if i were you by drawing up a puppy contract, i would have the pups micro chipped in your name only changing the details over once the dogs have been neutered i would then give a refund of a percentage of the purchase price once proof of neutering is shown, also your puppies must come back to you if new homes dont work out, all this would be in the contract. If you dont do something like this you can guarantee that someone will end up breeding one of these puppies and rescues are inundated with such crosses resulting in many being pts.

breeding is a massive responsibility and i really would reconsider breeding your girl in the future especially if shes a rescue or a rehome, good breeders use only the very best specimins to breed with good health test results and they dont have to advertise puppies they have waiting lists.

sadly i fear the BM is going the way of the staffy and rescues are seeing more and more of them and BM crosses its so heartbreaking. 

good luck with the puppies.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2010)

Seems everyone has given you the answer which you are looking for! which is NO! But that said there is an eliment of snobbery haloing the better breeders of many breeds (rightly so) some would not consider using their stud/bitch on a dog that had been previously mated with a different breed should they be aware of the mating. You say the mating was an accident? lucky really I suppose that it was a similar size dog! How long ago since the mating? Have you considered the mismate?
DT


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2010)

Oops!! sorry! didn't read the thread proper! note they are five days old!! looking forward to seeing pictures!
DT


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

felicitycp said:


> I believe purebred dogs have a bit of a better chance at a better home


Sorry, but what do you mean by this? Only Purebread dogs can get good homes? :confused1:


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

felicitycp said:


> I feel bad at the min because I love the pups so much, and just want them to go to good homes. *I know my view on purebred dogs going to better homes is wrong because I have rehomed purebred dogs before from very poor homes*.


I did get a little upset at that comment myself but I think she has come to a different conclusion after thinking about it.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Guinevere13 said:


> I did get a little upset at that comment myself but I think she has come to a different conclusion after thinking about it.


I object to it to be quite honest, and it is irresponsible breedings like the above that cause mixed breeds in the first place!


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Technically her pedigree remains unaltered as a pedigree is only the dogs behind her, but you will never get the chance to use a decent stud if they find out she has already had an unregistered litter. No stud owner will ever trust that you are doing it for the right reasons.





DoubleTrouble said:


> Seems everyone has given you the answer which you are looking for! which is NO! But that said there is an eliment of snobbery haloing the better breeders of many breeds (rightly so) some would not consider using their stud/bitch on a dog that had been previously mated with a different breed should they be aware of the mating.
> DT


I agree with both Tanya and DT. It won't alter her pedigree - which is basically a family tree (history - the past), but it may alter her breeding prospects in the future as many good breeders won't allow you to use their stud. Is is possible that your friend meant this or did they mean the pups not the pedigree would be changed permanently?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

alaun said:


> I agree with both Tanya and DT. It won't alter her pedigree - which is basically a family tree (history - the past), but it may alter her breeding prospects in the future as many good breeders won't allow you to use their stud. Is is possible that your friend meant this or did they mean the pups not the pedigree would be changed permanently?


That is quite possibly true. Cross breeding a DDB would mean exclusion from either of the breed clubs, too.


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

It was a accidental breeding and accidents happen. She was a private rehome and I do have all her papers and her pedigree is exceptional, she is a direct descendant of the world champion.

I had very slightly considered breeding from her in the future after health tests of course. But was very unsure because I thought I would become very attached and worry constantly about finding good homes, it has taken me aback exactly how worried and how much I love them.

The reason I had considered breeding from her is because she is just the most gorgeous loving dog and I knew she would make great pups. 

I understand everyones concern about health test's and if the breeding was planned, I would of had them. But I also think another really important thing to consider and no one has mentioned is the temprament of the dog. She has a amazingly good nature and I am lucky because the other dog is also very good natured. 

My thoughts on purebreeds getting better homes is mixed as I said, I have rehomed a gorgeous male DDB who unfortunately went to a terrible home with no socialisation. This has resulted in him being very fearful, he is also a huge dog weighing in at about 12 stone. His previous owners only had him 3-4months and had paid £1000 for him. As a family we have had purebreeds, crosses and even a ex breed bitch from a puppy farm. I have known many crosses that have excellent homes and many that have bad homes. But the same goes for purebreeds. I think I am just very anxious and mixed up because ultimately I am desperate to find them loving forever homes.

I think the contract is a brillant idea, does anyone know where I could find something like that on the internet?

I have also been reading about early socialisation and how i should be taking them out in the car and letting people handle them from as early as 3 weeks. I was a little worried about taking them out this soon due to safety and picking up bugs, but the vet said it would be ok, what do people think?
Thank you for everyones comments.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

12 stone?! I'd say that poor boy was overweight  I'd say the average for a male dogue is abut 7stone.... arund 50kg.

My girl weighs 50kg but she is an english mastiff/ddb cross.


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

Just another thought about purebreeds. I do think alot of the big breeders are snobby and not always in it for the dog's, but most definately for the money. I watched a programme about the Kennel Club a while back, and some of the practices on the show including inbreeding was awful. There was also a a King Charles Spaniel on there that had sired hundreds of puppys and was a big show winner but was passing on a hereditary brain condition and the owner of this dog knew all about his condition.

Most often crosses are healthier than purebreeds.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

felicitycp said:


> Just another thought about purebreeds. I do think alot of the big breeders are snobby and not always in it for the dog's, but most definately for the money. I watched a programme about the Kennel Club a while back, and some of the practices on the show including inbreeding was awful. There was also a a King Charles Spaniel on there that had sired hundreds of puppys and was a big show winner but was passing on a hereditary brain condition and the owner of this dog knew all about his condition.
> 
> Most often crosses are healthier than purebreeds.


Where did I leave my popcorn? :001_cool:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> It was a accidental breeding and accidents happen. She was a private rehome and I do have all her papers and her pedigree is exceptional, she is a direct descendant of the world champion.


I would say if you take an in season bitch to a breeder with an entire male and allow them together it is almost certain to happen and cannot be described as an accident.

And there is no such thing as a world champion.

Whilst temperament is important so too is health - what's the point in having a good tempered blind or crippled dog? Both have equal importance.

Yes, a contract is a good idea, but it must be remembered that they are ultimately unenforceable as a dog is considered goods under law so once ownership is transferred then rights to do with that dog are also transferred to the new owner. The benefit of one is that can put off the wrong kind of owner, but none of this can replace good vetting procedures with new owners.

Unfortunately, you have the added difficulty that this cross/these breeds are becoming status symbols and so attract the wrong sort of owner so you will have to be very vigilant when vetting.


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

Hi Sequeena, I am very strict about diet and feed twice daily and measure all his food out.

He is not fat at all, and even the vet said he is a perfect weight, you can just see his ribs. He is VERY muscular and very big, not sure why he is so fit because i would rate him as fairly lazy.

I do think people can over feed big dogs and make them un healthy. I also have 2 Rottis who are 8 and 9 stone which is fairly large for Rottis. I check their weight regulerly with the vets and they are happy.

I feed them decent food but dont buy a special brand, just a complete high protein.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

felicitycp said:


> Hi Sequeena, I am very strict about diet and feed twice daily and measure all his food out.
> 
> He is not fat at all, and even the vet said he is a perfect weight, you can just see his ribs. He is VERY muscular and very big, not sure why he is so fit because i would rate him as fairly lazy.
> 
> ...


Do you have a pic? He must have a lot of bulk on him, I wonder how big his neck is, Luna's measures at 22 inches


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

felicitycp said:


> Just another thought about purebreeds. I do think alot of the big breeders are snobby and not always in it for the dog's, but most definately for the money. I watched a programme about the Kennel Club a while back, and some of the practices on the show including inbreeding was awful. There was also a a King Charles Spaniel on there that had sired hundreds of puppys and was a big show winner but was passing on a hereditary brain condition and the owner of this dog knew all about his condition.
> 
> Most often crosses are healthier than purebreeds.


It isn't snobbery. A good breeder will try to preserve the breed. _That_ program was a very very biased view and they are the tiniest minority of show breeders. Lets face it, no body wants to be known for breeding unhealthy stock. A show breeder has a lot more to lose by breeding rubbish rather than a pet breeder, who hasn't spent the majority of their lives trying to gather a good reputation. A breeder is only as good as their last litter. Check out my website (the breeding one) its not quite finished, but read the part about breeding from your bitch... I think you'll find it quite useful regards show vs "pet" breeding.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Do you have a pic? He must have a lot of bulk on him, I wonder how big his neck is, Luna's measures at 22 inches


Hehe, my big lad has 30" collars


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Hehe, my big lad has 30" collars


oofff what a lad!!!


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

I think part of the reson he was rehomed was due to his size. As i said he is really lazy. When I walk them all they all run about like mad and he wont leave me. But he would walk over hot coals for his yellow ball!

I will post some pics, but he is not photgenic, he just looks miserable. Most Dogues I see just look fat, he would like to be fat because he would never stop eating if I let him. I do feel bad sometimes because when I feed him he finishes then looks up at me with sad eyes wanting more.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Luna is exactly the same, she's known as the bin of the house  She eats near enough 1kg of food a day though so she's not missing out!

My girl always looks miserable... here's a recent pic


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Luna is exactly the same, she's known as the bin of the house  She eats near enough 1kg of food a day though so she's not missing out!
> 
> My girl always looks miserable... here's a recent pic


she is obviously missing marley :lol:

you had better send her to me


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

mumof6 said:


> she is obviously missing marley :lol:
> 
> you had better send her to me


Oh no no no don't think you could cope with 7  think you better send Marley to me!!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

felicitycp said:


> It was a accidental breeding and accidents happen. She was a private rehome and I do have all her papers and her pedigree is exceptional, she is a direct descendant of the world champion.
> 
> I had very slightly considered breeding from her in the future after health tests of course. But was very unsure because I thought I would become very attached and worry constantly about finding good homes, it has taken me aback exactly how worried and how much I love them.
> 
> ...


Which World Champion and how far back in the pedigree?

12 stone is a reasonable weight for a large male, I wouldn't say that he would necessarily be fat at that weight. I've seen dogues at that weight who look quite lean and fit.

Thanks


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

felicitycp said:


> It was a accidental breeding and accidents happen. She was a private rehome and I do have all her papers and her pedigree is exceptional, she is a direct descendant of the world champion.
> 
> I had very slightly considered breeding from her in the future after health tests of course. But was very unsure because I thought I would become very attached and worry constantly about finding good homes, it has taken me aback exactly how worried and how much I love them.
> 
> ...


ive just done you a rough idea(very rough) of what i would put in the contract to try and give these pups the best protection possible, obviously you need both your and the buyers details and signatures

1) the purchaser agrees to care for the dog properly, and provide it with good quality food, water and shelter at at all times.

2) the purchaser must not leave the dog alone for long periods and must have a securely fenced garden.

3) the purchaser has agreed that the puppy will be neutered before 12 months of age.

4) the Breeder agrees to pay the purchaser £*** on written proof of the neutering by a vet.

5) the puppy has been micro-chipped with the breeders details again on proof of neutering the mocro chip documents will be transfered to the purchaser.

6) the purchaser must not pass the dog on to a third party at anytime in its life, if for any reason they can no longer care for it the purchaser must return the dog to the breeder.............you could offer to give the buyer back what they paid or a percentage of it thats up to you, i personally would just as an incentive to stop them selling the dog on.


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> Which World Champion and how far back in the pedigree?
> 
> 12 stone is a reasonable weight for a large male, I wouldn't say that he would necessarily be fat at that weight. I've seen dogues at that weight who look quite lean and fit.
> 
> ...


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

TBH I thought it would be Temple Felson when you mentioned it as he is fairly common in most pedigrees in this country. He was Junior World Champion BTW, as opposed to World Champion. It's good that your girl is good natured though as I come across those that aren't ideal, either being too timid or dog aggressive. It's probably more important to assess her quality as opposed to her pedigree. Have you shown her at all?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I wonder why there are a few rather OTT posters on here. The OP is obviously a caring owner who certainly did a silly thing letting her bitch get pregnant and not giving it the mismate injection. Though I have to say I would not give it as late as some of you suggest - I feel that is as immoral as aborting human babies so unless there was a medical reason I would let a later pregnancy go ahead.

But if it is true that stud dog owners would not allow a bitch to be mated if it had an accidental litter in the past! I find that totally unbelievable and any breeder that had that attitude would not be getting my business as I cannot stand that sort of attitude. Maybe next time I am looking for a puppy it will have to be one of the questions I ask, if the breeder owns a stud dog, as it would get up my nose so much I would not consider lining the pockets of someone so sanctimonious.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Blooming hell didn't realise dogues could get so big :lol:


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I wonder why there are a few rather OTT posters on here. The OP is obviously a caring owner who certainly did a silly thing letting her bitch get pregnant and not giving it the mismate injection. Though I have to say I would not give it as late as some of you suggest - I feel that is as immoral as aborting human babies so unless there was a medical reason I would let a later pregnancy go ahead.
> 
> But if it is true that stud dog owners would not allow a bitch to be mated if it had an accidental litter in the past! I find that totally unbelievable and any breeder that had that attitude would not be getting my business as I cannot stand that sort of attitude. Maybe next time I am looking for a puppy it will have to be one of the questions I ask, if the breeder owns a stud dog, as it would get up my nose so much I would not consider lining the pockets of someone so sanctimonious.


I haven't seen any OTT posts bar this one tbh - everyone seems to be giving the OP good advice and we'd all love to see piccies of her babies (hint, hint!!). As for abortion thats a personal thing be it human or dog - some peope wouldnt do it, others would. Theres no right or wrong answer, and correct me if i'm wrong but I don't think anyone specified a time on this thread for her to abort the pups - just that she should think about getting the mismate, no one seems to have mentioned how many weeks ect?

The majority of reputable breeders that I know would refuse to mate their stud dog with a bitch who had an accidental litter because in reality accidental = irresponsible in one way or another and indicates that they are not exactly capable of coping with the issues that come with breeding.

OP - hope the puppies and mum are doing good  we need to see pics of your gang lol :thumbup: x


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## gypsybitch (Aug 6, 2010)

hahaha i have never herd something so silly in my life, if your dog is a pure breed then why should it affect her 'pureness'???? she is infact one breeding litter down for giving purebreeds, but it does not affect her atall. if you have her kc reg and you want to mate her, then mate her with anouther purebreed and you can register these pups with the kc (if the dad is kc of corse lol) dont worry!! tell the dog busy body that her info is wrong and you have peace of mind that your dog is not 'unpure' i think the person who told you this is jealous of your dog.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Blooming hell didn't realise dogues could get so big :lol:


A friend of mine has one who is 16 stone.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> A friend of mine has one who is 16 stone.


That's crazy :eek6:


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> A friend of mine has one who is 16 stone.


:yikes: i bet thaty dog is huge


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

sequeena said:


> That's crazy :eek6:


Freakish TBH, he was never shown, just too big.


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

I am trying to download some photos. But I am obviously a techno phobe. I am trying to get some of Boris too.

I have never shown either Boris or Boo. But would love to get in to it, unfortunately Boris is just too fearful of things due to his early upbringing. I am lucky with Boo because she has got such a good nature, but not for showing she can be a little fussy.

I also have 2 Rotti's as well who are both really good natured. I have noticed alot of DDB's are getting behaviour probs which is a bit of a worry. A man brought his DDB bitch to my door to see if he could use Boris as a stud. I stepped outside and the dog gave no warning at all and lept at my stomach if it had got me it would have ripped flesh from me. unfortunately there is a few bad DDb's out there now.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

felicitycp said:


> I am trying to download some photos. But I am obviously a techno phobe. I am trying to get some of Boris too.
> 
> I have never shown either Boris or Boo. But would love to get in to it, unfortunately Boris is just too fearful of things due to his early upbringing. I am lucky with Boo because she has got such a good nature, but not for showing she can be a little fussy.
> 
> I also have *2 Rotti's* as well who are both really good natured. I have noticed alot of DDB's are getting behaviour probs which is a bit of a worry. A man brought his DDB bitch to my door to see if he could use Boris as a stud. I stepped outside and the dog gave no warning at all and lept at my stomach if it had got me it would have ripped flesh from me. unfortunately there is a few bad DDb's out there now.


Ooh Rottie pics would be nice as well:thumbup:


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I wonder why there are a few rather OTT posters on here. The OP is obviously a caring owner who certainly did a silly thing letting her bitch get pregnant and not giving it the mismate injection. Though I have to say I would not give it as late as some of you suggest - I feel that is as immoral as aborting human babies so unless there was a medical reason I would let a later pregnancy go ahead.
> 
> But if it is true that stud dog owners would not allow a bitch to be mated if it had an accidental litter in the past! I find that totally unbelievable and any breeder that had that attitude would not be getting my business as I cannot stand that sort of attitude. Maybe next time I am looking for a puppy it will have to be one of the questions I ask, if the breeder owns a stud dog, as it would get up my nose so much I would not consider lining the pockets of someone so sanctimonious.


Are we reading the same thread? I have seen no rudeness! just straighforward honest answers! So much so that the OP is trying to load piccys to feed our puppy fixes!!:thumbup: So obvious she has taken nothing that has been said the wrong way!

T;is posts such as this that get folks backs up imo though!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Tbh one of mine is timid, I've found that showing has helped that. I think the fact that it is quite a structured process has helped her allow a stranger to come up to her and handle her.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Are we reading the same thread? I have seen no rudeness! just straighforward honest answers! So much so that the OP is trying to load piccys to feed our puppy fixes!!:thumbup: So obvious she has taken nothing that has been said the wrong way!
> 
> T;is posts such as this that get folks backs up imo though!


I am sorry, but the thing about breeders not letting their stud dogs be used if the bitch has already had a litter is really really bad. I am so against these minority of breeders that behave like this and think they are god.
And the OP must be very thick skinned not to get upset by the digs about her 'accidental' mating.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I am sorry, but the thing about breeders not letting their stud dogs be used if the bitch has already had a litter is really really bad. I am so against these minority of breeders that behave like this and think they are god.
> And the OP must be very thick skinned not to get upset by the digs about her 'accidental' mating.


Maybe the OP can take it on the chin & not get defensive & start hurling personal insults like so many do when they get told things they might not necessarily want to hear but which should be said


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I am sorry, but the thing about breeders not letting their stud dogs be used if the bitch has already had a litter is really really bad. I am so against these minority of breeders that behave like this and think they are god.


It's not bad at all - people aren't playing god but some people still have ethics and morals - as rare as that may appear today.



> And the OP must be very thick skinned not to get upset by the digs about her 'accidental' mating.


Well I guess that's aimed at me as I was the one that couldn't believe this 'accident'.
Someone takes an in season bitch to a breeder and allows access to an entire dog is an 'accident' waiting to happen.  It's clearly to late for the OP but hopefully others may take note - although I'm still reeling that people don't realise this.


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

I am trying to take all the comments as I think they are intended, with good will. I am just desperate to rehome the pups to loving forever homes and appreciate all the advice. Ultimately everyone on here loves dogs.

I would love to show Boris but dont think he would ever take to it. In his previous home he was smacked in the head! so now he struggles when people pay him attention, he thinks they are going to smack him. We hardly ever walk him in the street because of the attention he gets, and people come rushing up to stroke him and he likes to be left alone. I think he is 1 of the best Dogue's I have seen, but I am his Mummy.


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

When I took her she was only 3 days into her season, and the dogs were kenneled behind gates when I arrived. They were let out by accident. Sometimes accidents do happen.


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## Shazach (Dec 18, 2008)

Your love for your dog comes across in your posts. I hope you find great homes for these pups and good luck when it comes to letting them go.

Sh x


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2010)

felicitycp said:


> I am trying to take all the comments as I think they are intended, with good will. I am just desperate to rehome the pups to loving forever homes and appreciate all the advice. Ultimately everyone on here loves dogs.
> 
> I would love to show Boris but dont think he would ever take to it. In his previous home he was smacked in the head! so now he struggles when people pay him attention, he thinks they are going to smack him. We hardly ever walk him in the street because of the attention he gets, and people come rushing up to stroke him and he likes to be left alone. I think he is 1 of the best Dogue's I have seen, but I am his Mummy.


You have taken what we have all said on board! You have remained open minded and not retailiated in anyway!! OK some of us would have done things differently!! but then we don't live in a perfect world do we! What is done is done! and we cannot turn back time!! (bet there are many of us wish that we could!!) I am one of those who are vemenetly against irresponsible breeding of any kind at that moment! and also some responsible for that matter! you only have to read the plight of many of the poor innocent dogs that are in rescue at the moment to understand why many of us are quite vocal on this subject!! That said!! I for one wish you the best for your litter! :thumbup::thumbup:
Would also like to remind you we are waiting for them piccys!:thumbup: and add that I hope you stick around as you seem like a genuine person! who just happened to make in the eyes of some a mistake!

regards
DT

A


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> When I took her she was only 3 days into her season, and the dogs were kenneled behind gates when I arrived. They were let out by accident. Sometimes accidents do happen.


There are a few words that would describe this but accident is not one of them. An in season bitch shouldn't be taken anywhere around other dogs, much less to a breeder with stud dogs, and I'm appalled at the 'breeder' who allowed this anyway - he should have known better. While some bitches can be floozies, most will only stand when they are ovulating so if the dogs mated you should have been highly suspicious that she was ready.

I would suggest ALL entire bitch owners read Swarthy's post
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/116097-myths-around-seasons.html

Regardless, the deed is done and I hope you are able find them good homes.
And suggest you put information in your puppy packs about caring for an inseason bitch so future owners are aware of the extra care they need to take and advise them to keep them in, not leave them unattended in the garden etc.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2010)

felicitycp said:


> I am trying to take all the comments as I think they are intended, with good will. I am just desperate to rehome the pups to loving forever homes and appreciate all the advice. Ultimately everyone on here loves dogs.
> 
> I would love to show Boris but dont think he would ever take to it. In his previous home he was smacked in the head! so now he struggles when people pay him attention, he thinks they are going to smack him. We hardly ever walk him in the street because of the attention he gets, and people come rushing up to stroke him and he likes to be left alone. I think he is 1 of the best Dogue's I have seen, but I am his Mummy.


Hang on a minute!! Have I lost the plot!! you said you would love to show Boris! yet you have puppys!! from a bitch you took in - have I got it wrong!!
do you own both dogs?


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## Shazach (Dec 18, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hang on a minute!! Have I lost the plot!! you said you would love to show Boris! yet you have puppys!! from a bitch you took in - have I got it wrong!!
> do you own both dogs?


I think the OP owns four dogs, Boris is one of them - but not the sire of these pups. xxx


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

felicitycp said:


> Snoringbear said:
> 
> 
> > Which World Champion and how far back in the pedigree?
> ...


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> The majority of reputable breeders that I know would refuse to mate their stud dog with a bitch who had an accidental litter because in reality accidental = irresponsible in one way or another and indicates that they are not exactly capable of coping with the issues that come with breeding.


That is exactly my interpretation too, as any "accidents" can be remedied by a vet, if there is a desire to do so.
The one off accident as reported would have been easily dealt with.

Many such "unfair" attitudes from proper responsible breeders are put down to snobbery or a closed shop mentality. 
However, they are based on the fact that so often people who do not follow convention are the same ones that will refuse to health test, who will breed pet quality animals, who will cross breed their animals and who will flout KC regulations.

As Rocco33 says there are ethics and morals in dog breeding and any stud owner who feels something is not quite right is well within their rights to refuse anyone to use their dog as after all they are partly responsible for welfare of the pups as well as the owner of the bitch.


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

I own 4 dogs. I have got a Rotti called Digby, who is the best most loving baby in the whole world he hasn't got a bad bone in his body. He does get us in to trouble sometimes because he loves all animals and they dont really love him.
1 Rotti called Toby who is also a big softy.But he often floors men, if he is'nt getting enough attention he will smack men in the nuts with his paw, he has amazing aim! He also sits on your feet so you can't get away and have to stroke him. Both have been done.
Boris is a Dogue de Bordeaux who I rehomed due to cruelty. He is my baby and loves his Mummy very much, but he is very much a 1 person dog. He is very greedy, very lazy and would do anything for a ball especially yellow balls! Boris is intact, because of his problem I have been advised to keep him intact because of his fear, the testosterone helps buoy him up.
Boo is another Dogue de Bordeaux. She has the best nature with people and loves to bully Boris even though he has 5ish stone on her she still manages to drag him around.
I also have 4 cats and currently 11 ex battery hens.
And ultimately everyone gets on. But 1 of the cats does bully everyone including the dogs!!!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

felicitycp said:


> I own 4 dogs. I have got a Rotti called Digby, who is the best most loving baby in the whole world he hasn't got a bad bone in his body. He does get us in to trouble sometimes because he loves all animals and they dont really love him.
> 1 Rotti called Toby who is also a big softy.But he often floors men, if he is'nt getting enough attention he will smack men in the nuts with his paw, he has amazing aim! He also sits on your feet so you can't get away and have to stroke him. Both have been done.
> Boris is a Dogue de Bordeaux who I rehomed due to cruelty. He is my baby and loves his Mummy very much, but he is very much a 1 person dog. He is very greedy, very lazy and would do anything for a ball especially yellow balls! Boris is intact, because of his problem I have been advised to keep him intact because of his fear, the testosterone helps buoy him up.
> Boo is another Dogue de Bordeaux. She has the best nature with people and loves to bully Boris even though he has 5ish stone on her she still manages to drag him around.
> ...


They all sound lovely I love DDB but have a mega soft spot for Rotties


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

actually 'any "accidents" can be remedied by a vet, if there is a desire to do so', this quote sadly can be, as I have experienced this week, absolute NONSENSE.

If you read any of my posts you will see that I am not an advocate of crossing breeding I feel that you do a disservice to the breeds you are crossing, my view on that is unchanged. However there is an old saying 'pride comes before a fall' and this week I have literally tumbled albeit not my actual fault but non the less my dogs, my responsibility.

On Friday I had a phone call from my parents who two of my dogs reside with, my male English Springer Spaniel whose been with them for six years and my female Cocker Spaniel whose been with them for nearly 2 since we were told my daughter is allergic to my dogs  I have NEVER had an accidental mating and would never have foreseen having one but on Friday my Cocker bitch produced 6 puppies     she didn't look pregnant when I saw her last and my dads call came as more than a shock to the system. Working back the dates on the last bank holiday in May at some point my springer had his wicked way with my cocker, no one remembers letting them out together, they were kept apart in the house but still at my feet now is a litter of sprockers 

You don't always have time to go to the vet to give an abortive injection I know I didn't first I knew was after 3 had been born with the best will in the world I couldn't stick them in a bucket thats just not how I deal with life. And if I can be responsible albeit indirectly for an accidental mismating believe me anyone can.

The famous last words of my dad when he called was 'this could be good news...'  the only good news is that both mum and pups are healthy but the litter totally goes against my breeding beliefs, it fails totally my Accredited Breeder status which I am very proud of being a part of, looks ridiculous when I sit on the committee of a parent club for a KC breed. As far as I am concerned thats ten years of hard work down the toilet and my reputation with it.

It can happen to the best of us. 

Does it ruin the pedigree of the bitch?? No, whatever her pedigree that is what she is and future litters if bred correctly will not be effected, will it effect your personal status and reputation as a breeder??? Well that depends on whose making the judgement, anyone who knows me for an example knows that I had made a decision not to breed any further litters but those who don't and those who will have an axe grind will of course make up their own minds. How yours is effected will depend on how you handle it. Being honest about it is the best you can do. Do the same with these pups as you would a pedigree litter I see no reason to treat them any different. Make sure you write up the same contract to protect them where possible. Microchip & pop them on the KC Activity Register so that your new owners will have the best chance of doing something with them in future.

Act as a decent breeder and it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks.


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

Sounds like you will be having some beautiful puppies...I love Both Breeds involved.....

Can't say that I agree with ALL of the above post........

(( QUOTE.... Do the same with these pups as you would a pedigree litter I see no reason to treat them any different))

WHY on Earth should they be treated differently All Dogs deserve the best whether peds or cross breeds...They all have the SAME rights... As a Dog lover I could never treat one better than the other..of course it's different if you are a Breeder and want show puppie's... I've also Breed and shown Dogs.

I also can't agree with aborting litters just becouse they arn't up to some folks standards Why should they all Die? 

But Cross breeds are also wonderful...I Groomed a Toy poodle X Shih Tzu today the most cutest little dog ever.


And some cross breeds make beautiful Dogs...I owned a German Sheperd x Collie you could'nt ask for a nicer dog.

Pedigree snobbery???

Mistakes happen and the results can be amazing.


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> You have taken what we have all said on board! You have remained open minded and not retailiated in anyway!! OK some of us would have done things differently!! but then we don't live in a perfect world do we! What is done is done! and we cannot turn back time!! (bet there are many of us wish that we could!!) I am one of those who are vemenetly against irresponsible breeding of any kind at that moment! and also some responsible for that matter! you only have to read the plight of many of the poor innocent dogs that are in rescue at the moment to understand why many of us are quite vocal on this subject!! That said!! I for one wish you the best for your litter! :thumbup::thumbup:
> Would also like to remind you we are waiting for them piccys!:thumbup: and add that I hope you stick around as you seem like a genuine person! who just happened to make in the eyes of some a mistake!
> 
> I have managed to upload piccys, yay. Pups pics to follow shortly


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

nfp20
Having a male unneutered dog in the same household as an unneutered female is always a risk and could in fact be called irresponsible but I am sure you are well aware of that now.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

nfp20 said:


> Act as a decent breeder and it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks.


Good post, I am repping you for that.
Regardless of mistakes, it's how you deal with them that counts. Accidents can happen in the best run families (that's a famous quote by someone).


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> nfp20
> Having a male unneutered dog in the same household as an unneutered female is always a risk and could in fact be called irresponsible but I am sure you are well aware of that now.


:thumbup: Good post x Well it would seem obvious to us mere mortals :lol:


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

It was'nt my Boy that did the deed, I only keep him unneutered because of his fear problem and have been advised by the vets and a dog behaviourlist.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

My mum used to swear that if a pregnant woman was frightened by something, then the baby would be born looking like what frightened her!  Up until the fifties, doctors believed that downes syndrome was caused by the father having syphilis!

Take no notice. I am glad the puppies are fine. You can call them Dogue de Mastiffs and charge a fortune for them (only joking)


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

felicitycp said:


> It was'nt my Boy that did the deed, I only keep him unneutered because of his fear problem and have been advised by the vets and a dog behaviourlist.


My post wasn't directed at you as I am well aware that your dog wasn't responsible, it was a dog from a DDB breeder that is the father of your pups.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Congratulations on the pups and I'm sure you will do right by them for their future 

Can I ask just 1 thing and shoot me down if you wish.

Its been puzzling me from the beginning and cannot get it around my head as i,m a bit of a thicko 

If you were at a breeders with a DDB in season how comes a Mastiff got hold of her un-noticed?

Were you there for the furture breeding of your girl. 
Could it not have waited until she had finished her season before you visited?
Surely the breeder could have put the dog away if she knew your bitch was in season.
Did you not say to the breeder that your bitch was in season?
After the deed did you or the breeder not contemplate the mismate jab?

Sorry to ask all this but you know when you have things bursting out to ask and then suddenly BOOOOOOM......there out


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

deb53 said:


> Congratulations on the pups and I'm sure you will do right by them for their future
> 
> Can I ask just 1 thing and shoot me down if you wish.
> 
> ...


I think the OP said the all the guilty male dog was behind a gate/fence and they don't know how he got out, someone must've accidentally left the gate open? I'm guessing the bitch was in the garden nosing about. Maybe the OP was there to see about getting a puppy in future and took her girlie along with her? & she said she was on day three of her season so didnt think she could get pregnant. Personally i think the owner of the 'stud dog' as such has alot to answer for - them being a breeder should know better! x


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I think the OP said the all the guilty male dog was behind a gate/fence and they don't know how he got out, someone must've accidentally left the gate open? I'm guessing the bitch was in the garden nosing about. Maybe the OP was there to see about getting a puppy in future and took her girlie along with her? & she said she was on day three of her season so didnt think she could get pregnant. Personally i think the owner of the 'stud dog' as such has alot to answer for - them being a breeder should know better! x


O my apologies I didn't read that bit 

Why could the bitch stay at home while you discussed future matings? Or left until another time?

Its great your doing your best for the pups ie contracts etc. but surely all this could have been avoided with the experience of a stueddog owner/breeder, you knowing your bitch is in season and the mis-mate jab being available.

I just hope and pray these lil ones don't fall into wrong hands and lead long, healthy, loving lives.


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## felicitycp (Aug 5, 2010)

I was taking her to see the breeder, to see what he thought but not neccesarily for future breeding. I was silly because I really did think she would'nt get caught. My boys were showing absolutely no interest, the stud dog obviously knew what he was on with. I did'nt know you could get the jab.
I think I have decided that I could never breed from her. I have loved the experience and she is a brillant mum. The pups are gorgeous and healthy. I knew I would love them and worry about them, but I have been surprised at how much I love them and know when it comes to rehoming I will struggle to let them go, and always worry that they are safe. I have now told my husband they are not going any where until I am happy the homes are right, not ideal for us because we already have 4 big dogs.
I dont mind answering any questions, I did something I regret and am happy to except resposibility.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

felicitycp said:


> I was taking her to see the breeder, to see what he thought but not neccesarily for future breeding. I was silly because I really did think she would'nt get caught. My boys were showing absolutely no interest, the stud dog obviously knew what he was on with. I did'nt know you could get the jab.
> I think I have decided that I could never breed from her. I have loved the experience and she is a brillant mum. The pups are gorgeous and healthy. I knew I would love them and worry about them, but I have been surprised at how much I love them and know when it comes to rehoming I will struggle to let them go, and always worry that they are safe. I have now told my husband they are not going any where until I am happy the homes are right, not ideal for us because we already have 4 big dogs.
> I dont mind answering any questions, I did something I regret and am happy to except resposibility.


So glad you didnt mind me asking :thumbup:

xx


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

felicitycp said:


> My boys were showing absolutely no interest, the stud dog obviously knew what he was on with. I did'nt know you could get the jab.


Many experienced stud dogs will pay little attention to a bitch unless she is bang on the money ready for mating. My own boy isn't experienced, but the only time he frets is when the girls are actually ready, and I know many more dogs like this.

I may have missed it - but were you aware they had mated? was the stud dog owner?


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

nfp20 said:


> :lol: of course I realise but I am personally perfectly capable of and have for more than 20 years kept dogs and bitches without fault. However my parents are a different kettle of fish and have had visitors over that weekend Ayla also catches early in her season and is an immaculate bitch so its not always easy to tell when she's in season, she's due this month in fact if she followed her normal pattern.
> 
> All my dogs at home are usually bitches although I do now have a male intact Weimaraner so it has never been an issue, I work ALL my males around in season bitches so thats never been an issue either they no that with me no means no. Ayla was due to return home soon as with a bit of piriton each day my daughters allergies are getting better and my new kennels will be finished (daytime only I might add) so there was and never has been an issue about keeping them intact or not. I don't neuter for the sake of it I neuter if its a health or temperament issue unless its a rehome in which case I neuter to guarantee no nonsense.


I admire your honesty. It takes a lot for an "established" breeder to admit to a mistake or accident. I'm assuming you are well established by the manner of your previous posts, although one can never be sure  . Rep for you


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

I'm sure '' Established Breeders '' Arn't 100% perfect.. Accidents happen and with some lovely puppies as a result.

nfp20 seems absoutely digusted to have been landed with a litter of Sprockers They are lovely dogs and hopefully they found good homes with people who DO appreciate them. more than their breeder doe's.


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

I would love to see pics of them. Picy's, Picy's Picy's:thumbup:


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2010)

vizzy24 said:


> I would love to see pics of them. Picy's, Picy's Picy's:thumbup:


There are some in her profile - the lady sent me a pm to tell me!!
They are to die for!! Hope this lady hangs around and keeps up with a steady flow of puppy fix for us!


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> I admire your honesty. It takes a lot for an "established" breeder to admit to a mistake or accident. I'm assuming you are well established by the manner of your previous posts, although one can never be sure  . Rep for you


Yes although I breed very rarely usually takes me at least 4 years to do my research :lol: I can't see any point in hiding it, I'm an accredited breeder and if I can't be honest then I shouldn't be part of the scheme.

I know it sounds like I'm not happy about the pups its not that I am mortified here I am harping on about not breeding crosses and the blue that I am trying very hard to take out of the hands of poor breeders and two of my dogs produce a cross litter. Ok not at my residence and not whilst in my personal care but my dogs, my responsibility.


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> I'm sure '' Established Breeders '' Arn't 100% perfect.. Accidents happen and with some lovely puppies as a result.
> 
> nfp20 seems absoutely digusted to have been landed with a litter of Sprockers They are lovely dogs and hopefully they found good homes with people who DO appreciate them. more than their breeder doe's.


My feelings about my puppies are very different from your interpretation its not the puppies themselves I am as you put it disgusted about far from it they are lovely and will receive all the love care and attention I would give a litter I had planned but it is a failure in myself as a breeder and carer of my dogs that I am disgusted in. However accidents do happen and they happen to the best and worst of us.

I'll post a different thread to introduce them. Fortunately for me they are both spaniel breeds and historically would have been found in the same litter so its not so bad but obviously given the choice I would not have had this litter.


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## Hazelvalley (Aug 9, 2010)

Some people just say some stupid things!! I have just breed my first litter but I am lucky and have the help and support of 2 accredited breeders who between them have 21 year experience of breeding labradors and one of the joiners who works for the company i work for just got his first puppy. I said how Tilly just had puppies and he was asking me questions and I said that I would be breeding her again next year and he said then that will be the last one. I said no i will breed her another 2 times. He then started havign a go at me telling me how i was beening a bad breeder and I was seriously damaging my dogs health!!! I got really upset! As that is the last thing i would do! Some people breed their dogs 8 times during their life and I was doing half that yet he accused me of being irresponsible! I have not be so annoyed in a long time.

Some people think they know it all when they have no understanding what so ever about dog breeding but they think they are always right, even though I follow vets and kennel club advise, they still think they are in the right!!! It makes me wonder!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Hazelvalley said:


> Some people breed their dogs 8 times during their life and I was doing half that yet he accused me of being irresponsible! I have not be so annoyed in a long time.


Only PF would breed their bitch 8 times, the absolute maximum you can register with the KC from a single bitch is 6 litters (still way to many but that's for another day).


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

No caring, responsible breeder would dream of having 8 litters from a bitch  The Kennel Club state a maximum of 6 litters. Personally, I think 4 litters from a bitch is too many, but each to their own. What do your breed club(s) say about this? Mine say a maximum of 3 litters. I think that is fair enough. Most of my bitches have only had one litter.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Ridgielover said:


> No caring, responsible breeder would dream of having 8 litters from a bitch  The Kennel Club state a maximum of 6 litters. Personally, I think 4 litters from a bitch is too many, but each to their own. What do your breed club(s) say about this? Mine say a maximum of 3 litters. I think that is fair enough. Most of my bitches have only had one litter.


I can't find anything on the LRC website about the maximum number of litters, so am guessing it is the default - but will check that. That said, I wouldn't imagine many (if any) actually do this. (these limits are also gradually finding their way into the Accredited Breeder specifications, where I note a number of breeds now have limits on the minimum and maximum age for taking a litter and also the maximum number of litters an AB is able to register.

I take one, maximum of two litters from my girls - I am nowhere near a stage in my breeding where there would be an essential reason to take three litters - and as I only breed when I want a pup to run on, I also have to be rather sensible or I suspect my OH wouldn't be responsible for his actions


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

I personnally think 8 litters is WAY TOO much and basically turning The Bitch into a puppy machine...Let The Dog have a life..I reckon 2 And at the very most 3 on the VERY MAX side...But then thats only my opinion.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> I personnally think 8 litters is WAY TOO much and basically turning The Bitch into a puppy machine...Let The Dog have a life..I reckon 2 And at the very most 3 on the VERY MAX side...But then thats only my opinion.


Do people really take 8 litters from a bitch  (well PF probably do  )

I do agree though that for most mainstream breeders 2 is usually enough - if you have a superlative producer producing puppies at the top of their game whether that be field or show, then I can understand the reasoning behind taking more than 2 (a lot also depends on how the bitch copes with being pregnant / whelping / puppies).

I do know that a few people have had trouble with their bitches whelping their third litters after sailing through the first two, and this has also stuck very much in my mind.

My eldest girl adored each and every minute of it and was still feeding the remaining babies and trying to clean up after them at 10/11 weeks (having pups ready to go at Bank Holiday time is not recommended ) - you could see her 'smiling' in the photos 

Hazelvalley - is there any particular reason why you want to take three litters from your girl? wouldn't it be better to breed on with a daughter from the litter to further improve your lines?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think Hazel Valley intention is to take 4 litters from her girl, half of eight.

Her first litter just past, next year's litter and then another two times, if I am correct.

I think that no-one can make plans like that really as it is very dependant on how the pregnancies go.
The best laid plans of mice and men......

Breeding these days needs careful thought as there are enough puppies in the country already, I feel there should be some good reason behind a litter and not just because.


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

Given preference I would only breed what I can run on and what I can take back during that litters lifetime. I know if the worst came to the worse I could take back or rehome what I have so far. I can be a little too choosy on new owners so in the last litter I kept back two the bitch I intended and the dog I didn't but didn't feel the right owner had come forward for.

I can't see any reason to have more than a two litters I prefer one but can understand if later on you want to repeat a mating and keep a second pup back. My breed the majority of clubs it is 3 litters max 6 of the kennel club is far too many in my personal opinion and really I think its about time they reduced the numbers.

Are you intending to keep any of the pups your breeding?? Its lovely to have mentors especially if they have alot of experience.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> I think Hazel Valley intention is to take 4 litters from her girl, half of eight.


 is this the same girl she is hoping to work?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Hazelvalley said:


> Some people just say some stupid things!! I have just breed my first litter but I am lucky and have the help and support of 2 accredited breeders who between them have 21 year experience of breeding labradors and one of the joiners who works for the company i work for just got his first puppy. I said how Tilly just had puppies and he was asking me questions and I said that I would be breeding her again next year and he said then that will be the last one. I said no i will breed her another 2 times. He then started havign a go at me telling me how i was beening a bad breeder and I was seriously damaging my dogs health!!! I got really upset! As that is the last thing i would do! Some people breed their dogs 8 times during their life and I was doing half that yet he accused me of being irresponsible! I have not be so annoyed in a long time.
> 
> Some people think they know it all when they have no understanding what so ever about dog breeding but they think they are always right, even though I follow vets and kennel club advise, they still think they are in the right!!! It makes me wonder!


tbh i can understand her anger, each time you breed a dog you ARE risking her health anyone who claims to care for their dog yet breeds them so often imo dosent care enough, most reputable breeders will very rarely breed a bitch more than 3 times they usually only breed 1 maybe 2 litters in the bitch's lifetime..........im so against people who exploit their dogs.


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

swarthy said:


> is this the same girl she is hoping to work?


If it is she won't be doing much work  especially if taking four litters for the next four years that pretty much knocks out the next six years if your not breeding till 18 months.

A litter pretty much knocks mine out for the year because of when the season starts and finishes, fitness levels drop and getting them back into condition takes time, chuck in upset seasons and you can kiss goodbye to that years work. My Weimaraner bitch was lovely before her litter she used to have her season all over and done with two weeks before the season started and would start her next just before the season finished (usually about a week) and then start again around Crufts which is a nuisance because it means we've entered and missed three in a row now! I suppose you could do a little picking up or dogging in out of the season but unless you own a shoot or friends do that could be pretty hard to come across though or pay as a gun which can be expensive if you don't have a good syndicate already.

Dog are so much easier when it comes to working than bitches beyond illness you can always plan your season in advance.


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## Hazelvalley (Aug 9, 2010)

I wasnt sure on the limits of the kennel club so I just gave an estimate in my head, I am not Breeding my dog any more than 4 times, as I dont want her to have pups every single year. I love my dog to pieces she comes everywhere with me even on holiday. I am still learning and look forward to your ladies advice over the next few weeks when the pups get bigger.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Hazelvalley said:


> I wasnt sure on the limits of the kennel club so I just gave an estimate in my head, I am not Breeding my dog any more than 4 times, as I dont want her to have pups every single year. I love my dog to pieces she comes everywhere with me even on holiday. I am still learning and look forward to your ladies advice over the next few weeks when the pups get bigger.


Please don't shout me down, but I am curious as to why you would breed her as many as four times.

Wouldn't a girl pup from each litter be sufficient for your future breeding plans without the need to take as many as 3 or even 4 litters?

If she excelled in the showring or field and / or produced equally high quality pups then just maybe I could understand - but I know you don't show / work her and atm you also don't know how the pups are going to turn out.

I can understand someone taking two litters from a bitch if using different sires to see what is produced and inform where you may want to take your line if breeding for show or working - but if two litters can't do this for a standard bitch, then any more than that really is surely breeding for the sake of breeding?

ETA - I am also not sure where the limits come in - just because a bitch is able to have 'x' amount of litters registered, doesn't mean she should necessarily have that many.


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

At this stage why not do a bit more research KC is six litters in a lifetime with bitch not above 8 years old if your not intending to breed every year and if you don't breed till shes in her dotage than you won't be breeding four litters anyway. At max it will be two or three dependant upon how much work you are intending to do. Are you working her now?? If not are you doing any gundog training?? Have you got a shoot organised?? Do you shoot yourself or have you been on a shoot so know what its all about??

If you haven't there is still time and lots you can do but you need to get your skates on shooting is not an easy thing to get into especially for a woman and places in the beating lines and picking up (which is like gold dust!) are very sort after.

This is taken from the KC website:

_The Kennel Club:

Before thinking about breeding from your bitch, you should acquaint yourself with the Kennel Club Regulations on registering litters and the registration system in general. The rules and regulations can be found on the litter application form 1, but you will need to remember that the Kennel Club will not accept an application to register a litter when:

a) The bitch has already whelped six litters, or

b) The bitch was under a year old at the date of mating, or

c) The bitch has already reached the age of eight years at the date of whelping, or

d) Offspring of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstance, for scientifically proven welfare reasons.

N.B. Relief from the restriction C may be considered provided the dam has previously whelped at least one other registered litter, and a written application is made prior to mating and supported by veterinary evidence confirming the suitability of the bitch involved in the proposed whelping.

You will also need to ensure that your bitch's Kennel Club registration does not carry a breeding restriction (endorsement). If there are any, you will need to discuss this further with the person from whom you obtained the bitch, as any breeding endorsement will need to be removed before registration of a litter can take place. In most cases it will be the breeder who has placed the endorsement, and who will therefore be the person empowered to remove it.

Code of Ethics

The Kennel Club also has a Code of Ethics which all breeders that register their litters with the Kennel Club agree to adhere to._


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

I agree I think 2 litters max really - even if you have the best animal in the world - you don't want to saturate the market with a particular bloodline if you are breeding pure. Plus there are tons of dogs in rescues at the moment even pedigree ones and the public are being made more aware of this, it can be hard to find homes for the best dogs let alone a pet that has had a litter.
If it's purely a pet dog then to me 1 litter is enough so you can keep a pup or 2, which eventually you could do the same with, if it's good enough obviously. Unless you are trying to make money from a dog and it's not really a pet - why would anyone want to risk a pet more than twice especially as they get older when the risks are higher - then really 1 or 2 litters are more than enough, as it takes an awful lot out of them.


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

Hazelvalley said:


> I wasnt sure on the limits of the kennel club so I just gave an estimate in my head, I am not Breeding my dog any more than 4 times, as I dont want her to have pups every single year. I love my dog to pieces she comes everywhere with me even on holiday. I am still learning and look forward to your ladies advice over the next few weeks when the pups get bigger.


Hazelvalley - if you really are looking for the advice of the experienced and ethical breeders on this forum, I think you will find that by far the majority of us would recommend that you breed only one or two litters from your bitch - and that is assuming that she is a very good specimen of the breed, with an outstanding temperament and good health test results - and that you have a good reason for breeding in the first place. I would not count satisfying the pet market as a good reason for breeding - not that I am saying that you have done this. I would hope that you have bred this current litter with the aim of keeping a puppy for yourself (otherwise, why breed?). And if this is the case, what would be the reason for having another 3 litters?


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

Just out of interest what have your mentors suggested??


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

nfp20 said:


> Just out of interest what have your mentors suggested??


Good point, there are mentors and mentors........


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

felicitycp said:


> The problem I have got is someone I know has told me, now she has been mated with a Bullmastiff it will ruin her pedigree if I ever wanted to breed with her in the future.


You really would think people would have more intelligence than this these days wouldn't you. If someone has a child with her first husband and then divorces and remarries, does she expect all subsequent children to actually be her divorced husband's rather than her new husband's? Bizarre!

Liz


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## lgarcia1899 (7 d ago)

MerlinsMum said:


> It is stupid..... and was something believed by breeders over 100 years ago - it was called Telegony, and before people knew about genetics, they genuinely believed that a pure bred female animal (any species) mated by another breed, would ruin future litters as they would never be 'pure' because she had been 'contaminated' by another breed.... the sire would have inflence over every and all offspring produced by that female for evermore....... :blink: I think the minute you realise this only applied to *female* animals - not the males, who could mate with whatever they liked!! - you can begin to see the idiocy of it! Seriously, it was a well-held belief throughout the Victorian era. And just to make sure - it's definitely not true!


 No it is not idiocy Ma’am… I’m sorry but what scientific degree do you hold in order to assume you know how DNA works ? To answer the dog question yes her future litters will not be pure she has been impregnated aka her DNA has mutated. Are you people dumb or stupid. If you pay attention to the world around you or at the very least have been pregnant yourself, your DNA changes!!!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lgarcia1899 said:


> No it is not idiocy Ma’am… I’m sorry but what scientific degree do you hold in order to assume you know how DNA works ? To answer the dog question yes her future litters will not be pure she has been impregnated aka her DNA has mutated. Are you people dumb or stupid. If you pay attention to the world around you or at the very least have been pregnant yourself, your DNA changes!!!


What degree do you hold that you believe such utter nonsence? BTW you have latched onto something from 2010


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

lgarcia1899 said:


> No it is not idiocy Ma’am… I’m sorry but what scientific degree do you hold in order to assume you know how DNA works ? To answer the dog question yes her future litters will not be pure she has been impregnated aka her DNA has mutated. Are you people dumb or stupid. If you pay attention to the world around you or at the very least have been pregnant yourself, your DNA changes!!!


What complete and utter nonsense. I can hardly believe people continue to think like this. A person or animals dna cannot be changed


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