# tail docking pups



## hayla (Dec 31, 2008)

hi i was wondering if anyone can help me, i will be breeding my bitch in the next couple of months and when they arrive i will be getting there tails docked(by a vet of course). i was hoping some one could tell me what kind of evidence i need as i am working her on farmers land (with his permission), but the vets say i need better evidence than something from him. could anyone please help me?:sad:


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

hayla said:


> hi i was wondering if anyone can help me, i will be breeding my bitch in the next couple of months and when they arrive i will be getting there tails docked(by a vet of course). i was hoping some one could tell me what kind of evidence i need as i am working her on farmers land (with his permission), but the vets say i need better evidence than something from him. could anyone please help me?:sad:


You need to prove that the puppies will be working dogs. If they aren't working dogs then it is not legal to dock their tails.

I believe anyway.


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## Guest (May 6, 2009)

Im no expert but you may want to be a bit more precise to get some answer coming.
What breed are you talking about? Why do you want to dock the pups tails?
What type of evidence are u referring to?
x


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Check with the DEFRA website. There has to be good reason for them to be docked, and it has to be proven that each puppy will be used as a worker, not a pet.

You say the mum is a worker, will all the puppies be?

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/act/pdf/tail-docking.pdf

Some vets wont dock, working animal or not.


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## Guest (May 6, 2009)

So basically if its up to the vet its up to him what evidence he wants 
You should ask your vet to be more specific.

Are you sure to send those pups to be working dogs and not pet? 
Maybe if you have a list of buyers and they can say they want the pup for that purpose...dunno 

Can i just ask; what is the point of a working dog having his tail docked (I assume there is a purpose since it is still accepted in law..although it seems to me that it is more tolerated than accepted as such)? just curious 

x


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## Guest (May 6, 2009)

You may struggle to find a vet that will dock the tails now! what breed is your girl?

I have heard of breeders who have orders for working dogs only having one or two pups docked out of a litter also!
DT


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## reddogs (Feb 6, 2009)

We live in a big shooting area and a friend who needed his bitch docking because of the damage that had been done struggled to find one that would.

Talk to you vet and he will advise you what you need

Remember that if any of the pups will be shown they cannot go to a show which the public pay admission to - that means Crufts particularly


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

Glad to hear that you may find it difficult to find a vet who will undertake this barbaric practice.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## reddogs (Feb 6, 2009)

turkeylad said:


> Glad to hear that you may find it difficult to find a vet who will undertake this barbaric practice.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


But it is equally barbaric when it is required because of damage caused to the tail - I haven't had a dog that has needed to be docked but I have seen the damage on others - not nice at all

Please don't believe that I support docking for cosmetic reasons only but I do for working (true working) breeds


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## Guest (May 6, 2009)

I am quite friendly with the younger vet at our practice! I did ask him 'off the record' just last week as it happens, he said although the practice has a no docking policy now whether the dog be a working dog or not, he did indicate that he would consider (and only consider) docking just one out of my litter (not a definate litter may I add) on the grounds that I promised him it would work! As I don't want to go back on my word to him I have decided that should I ever have a litter that NONE will be docked!


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

If you have a local gamekeeper ask them which vet they use. my spaniel's are docked so is the jrt. you will need proof that the pup's are going to working home's. please pm me with which part of the country you live i May be able to help you.


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## hayla (Dec 31, 2008)

hi thanks for your replies, i have a patterdale terrier. when i breed her most of her pups will be goin to working homes as i have a few people wanting one. il have to wait and see how many she has first before i start telling people theres no pups left. i asked my vet if i could get a letter off the farmer i have permissin off and they said that isnt evidence that they will be workers. in my eyes all patterdale terriers are born workers and not really pet material. so if anyone can give me any idea what other form of evidence i could use its more than welcome :001_smile::001_smile:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Cant see how you can prove they are going to working homes, as the docking needs to be done when the pups are a few days old. Our last pup has a docked tail and the breeder had to show some kind of licence for shooting, we never intended to work ours neither have we with any of them, the docking papers have to be shown to vet as it is law a docked puppy has to be micro chipped too.


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## *Ragdoll* (Jan 21, 2009)

my friend sister breeds gsp's and her dogs are workin, her dad had to go with her to the vet with his gun licence to prove that he used guns for hunting and to sign various things saying that her dogs were used as working dogs with him.


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## mandy1 (Feb 28, 2009)

I have to say I thought that docking was now banned totally. Personally I cannot understand the need for this. Having owned boxers for over 25 years I love now seeing them with the tails they were born with.


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## Guest (May 6, 2009)

Shotgun licence! seriously - I would forget it!


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## *Ragdoll* (Jan 21, 2009)

not my kind of thing but...
anyhoo im guessing you will need to talk to the farmer who will be using your dogs and he will have to come with you.


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## Vixxen (Jan 13, 2009)

meh i dont like docking at all...but that aside im uessing you need a lot of evidence for the vets now as it is quite frowned upon


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

mandy1 said:


> I have to say I thought that docking was now banned totally. Personally I cannot understand the need for this. Having owned boxers for over 25 years I love now seeing them with the tails they were born with.


It is banned now only certain breeds can be docked, as it has been proven that the damage that can be done to a working dog can be very serious and thats why they have to be microchipped so the docking papers cant be used for an ellegally docked puppy


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## mandy1 (Feb 28, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> It is banned now only certain breeds can be docked, as it has been proven that the damage that can be done to a working dog can be very serious and thats why they have to be microchipped so the docking papers cant be used for an ellegally docked puppy


That is what I love so much about this site - something else I have learnt today


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Well I guess you would need proof from the new owners that the dog will be working. But you would need that proof when they are born because the vet will not (or Should not) do it after 2 or 3 days old.

Erm.. scuse me for being stupid but what are patterdales bred for again? 

x


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## *Ragdoll* (Jan 21, 2009)

dont think proof from the new owners is needed as they might not have homes. when my friend sister did it she did not have homes for many of her pups (but they are all sold now  )


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## marion..d (Nov 12, 2008)

poisongirl said:


> Erm.. scuse me for being stupid but what are patterdales bred for again?
> 
> x


i have a patterdale.. they are bred for hunting things such as rats, rabbits and foxes even....


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## Guest (May 6, 2009)

marion..d said:


> i have a patterdale.. they are bred for hunting things such as rats, rabbits and foxes even....


So they are docked to prevent the tails from being bitten I assume! don't think this is quite what the vets would view as 'working' dogs with a valid reason to dock myself.


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## Guest (May 6, 2009)

I think it is more to stop there tails being ripped open whilst working in brambles etc


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## marion..d (Nov 12, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> So they are docked to prevent the tails from being bitten I assume! don't think this is quite what the vets would view as 'working' dogs with a valid reason to dock myself.


i have no idea why there tails are docked, all i have been told is they should be docked quite short so if they get stuck in rabbit hole a man can grab tail to pull them out..
mine isnt a working patterdale. she just a pet, and yes, her tail is docked.


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## Guest (May 6, 2009)

nic b said:


> I think it is more to stop there tails being ripped open whilst working in brambles etc


Think that is springers a patterdale tail is not quite the same! and it that theory is correct why arn't labs docked?
I have had had three docked and one undocked by the way! I cannot imagine mine with a tail ever getting caught in undergrowth and she goes in plenty


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## Guest (May 6, 2009)

marion..d said:


> i have no idea why there tails are docked, all i have been told is they should be docked quite short so if they get stuck in rabbit hole a man can grab tail to pull them out..
> mine isnt a working patterdale. she just a pet, and yes, her tail is docked.


Yeah I have heard that too, that sounds right to me 


DoubleTrouble said:


> Think that is springers a patterdale tail is not quite the same! and it that theory is correct why arn't labs docked?
> I have had had three docked and one undocked by the way! I cannot imagine mine with a tail ever getting caught in undergrowth and she goes in plenty


Yeah I was thinking about springers, for patterdales its what Marion said so you can pull them from a hole.

I have two patterdales btw one docked and one undocked


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

The only dogs that can be pulled out are westies and cairns, not jacks or patterdales like people think  you can damage their tails that way. (I was told this by a vet and a guy who works and owns patts)

Springers are thinner flicky type tails where as labradors have long strong and thick tails plus the fur is shorter so barbs don't get stuck like they do with springers.

I know of a guy who owns a few working pats and 3 of his 5 all have tails, he told me that it truth it is rare that terriers injure their tails, springers bounce around in brambles and go here there and everywhere. Ratting dogs often go underground or across open fields rather than woodland area, so in truth they really don't need their tails docked.


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## Guest (May 6, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> The only dogs that can be pulled out are westies and cairns, not jacks or patterdales like people think  you can damage their tails that way. (I was told this by a vet and a guy who works and owns patts)
> 
> Springers are thinner flicky type tails where as labradors have long strong and thick tails plus the fur is shorter so barbs don't get stuck like they do with springers.
> 
> I know of a guy who owns a few working pats and 3 of his 5 all have tails, he told me that it truth it is rare that terriers injure their tails, springers bounce around in brambles and go here there and everywhere. Ratting dogs often go underground or across open fields rather than woodland area, so in truth they really don't need their tails docked.


You have such a 'nice way' of putting it!
Spot on!!
DT


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> You have such a 'nice way' of putting it!
> Spot on!!
> DT


I'm not against docking for working dogs but when in truth it's no necessary then I need to be blunt about it and i'm horrified to hear people pulling their dogs tails


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Im not 100% as i see it a pointless way to go around things, but I think you need to provide the paperwork that goes with gundog training ... certificates of enrolment/merit etc. I say this is pointless (if it is the case) as by the time they have matured to do training, docking their tails if not done right can cause massif infection resulting in more and more tail being docked and a lot of distress. Vets if they are familiar with the breeder and their activities will dock - but I doubt your going to find one in central london if you know what i mean.

Springers are docked as they can break very easily and yes get torn in brambles. I know of springers tails breaking or becoming sore and inflamed even through wagging because they do it so hard on knocking it against things, I dont see it as barbaric in the least, though it definitely has to be done by a professional if at all.

Wouldnt really advise pulling any dog from a hole by its tail either
:crying:


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

SpringerHusky said:


> The only dogs that can be pulled out are westies and cairns, not jacks or patterdales like people think  you can damage their tails that way. (I was told this by a vet and a guy who works and owns patts)
> 
> Springers are thinner flicky type tails where as labradors have long strong and thick tails plus the fur is shorter so barbs don't get stuck like they do with springers.
> 
> I know of a guy who owns a few working pats and 3 of his 5 all have tails, he told me that it truth it is rare that terriers injure their tails, springers bounce around in brambles and go here there and everywhere. Ratting dogs often go underground or across open fields rather than woodland area, so in truth they really don't need their tails docked.


sorrydont want to offend but where are you pulling these westie cairns out of!!! i dont think either are spanerble to go to ground the reason for docking is so you grab the base of tail rather than the end


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Think that is springers a patterdale tail is not quite the same! and it that theory is correct why arn't labs docked?





> Springers are thinner flicky type tails where as labradors have long strong and thick tails plus the fur is shorter so barbs don't get stuck like they do with springers.


The job springers do is very different to labradors. Labradors are retrievers, they retrieve game - they don't tend to go into the cover/brambles the way spaniels do, so aren't likely to damage their tails (although a know a few that do).


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Think that is springers a patterdale tail is not quite the same! and it that theory is correct why arn't labs docked?
> I have had had three docked and one undocked by the way! I cannot imagine mine with a tail ever getting caught in undergrowth and she goes in plenty


Labs arnt generally docked although i have seen some, because they do a different job from the flushing springer when out on the fields working they very rarely actually go in the undergrowth brambles ect, they do more of the retrieving. I have seen working springers with their tails ripped its awful.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Dundee said:


> The job springers do is very different to labradors. Labradors are retrievers, they retrieve game - they don't tend to go into the cover/brambles the way spaniels do, so aren't likely to damage their tails (although a know a few that do).


Sorry repeated your answer didnt read yours before i replied


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Labs arnt generally docked although i have seen some, because they do a different job from the flushing springer when out on the fields working they very rarely actually go in the undergrowth brambles ect, they do more of the retrieving. I have seen working springers with their tails ripped its awful.


I would say the lab's you've seen weren't docked probly taken off because of damage. I don't think lab's are ever docked at birth sorry if i'm wrong


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## Guest (May 7, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Labs arnt generally docked although i have seen some, because they do a different job from the flushing springer when out on the fields working they very rarely actually go in the undergrowth brambles ect, they do more of the retrieving. I have seen working springers with their tails ripped its awful.


Having had both labs and springers I was aware of that ! was just trying to make the comparison of the patterdales tail next to the labs tail in this instance!
lol
DT


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

james1 said:


> Im not 100% as i see it a pointless way to go around things, but I think you need to provide the paperwork that goes with gundog training ... certificates of enrolment/merit etc. I say this is pointless (if it is the case) as by the time they have matured to do training, docking their tails if not done right can cause massif infection resulting in more and more tail being docked and a lot of distress. Vets if they are familiar with the breeder and their activities will dock - but I doubt your going to find one in central london if you know what i mean.
> 
> Springers are docked as they can break very easily and yes get torn in brambles. I know of springers tails breaking or becoming sore and inflamed even through wagging because they do it so hard on knocking it against things, I dont see it as barbaric in the least, though it definitely has to be done by a professional if at all.
> 
> ...


I think its as simple as if the pups are from working parents or working springer breed it is assumed that anyone wanting to buy a puppy to train to the gun then they will want a docked springer, you cannot give proof that the springer will be worked as not all of them make working dogs wether from working breed or not, its a case of the breeder proving the pups are working breed.We have 2 springers our first was docked befor i came ilegal for some breeds our second one which is our eldest now isnt docked but our pup 10months is docked, we knew nothing about the microchipping until we took her for her 2nd injection, it is law now that a docked pup has been microchiped


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

terriermaid said:


> sorrydont want to offend but where are you pulling these westie cairns out of!!! i dont think either are spanerble to go to ground the reason for docking is so you grab the base of tail rather than the end


Whoops forgot to specify you are meant to grab the base.

Dogs 101, Dog Breed Video : Animal Planet Look up the west highland white terrier.

They are ratters I guess it's like rottwielers are herding dogs, epople don't think or see them as the job they are meant to do because they get so used to them doing another job.

Ah, see I was never told why it was docked just that westies and cairns are ethe only dogs that can be pulled out by their tails, I guess they mean without docking tails or something.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I agree with docking for dogs such as springers, as it must be terrible for them when they are broken or badly damaged, i just hate to think how it feels for them when they have them docked, ime not saying its cruel as i think its cruel to allow them to be damage. Ive had 2 out of 3 with docked tails, have never worked them.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

If its done early eonough - ideally within the first 3 days of birth there is no distress or discomfort and little chance of infection. The issues of docking only arrise when its been badly done or done for no reason. Springers tails are inherrently fragile in comparison to their body size and muscle growth so I would say breed specific, docking is a good thing that on occasion prevents future injury working or not.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

is it true that the pups have to be kept away from mom, for i dont know how many days, after docking because she would lick their wounds?


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

we work our border and patterdale bitches,their tails are quite short and thick anyway so they are fine to go in and out of bramblesneither are docked.we shoot mainly on the marshes and open farmland anyway


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## Guest (May 7, 2009)

Natik said:


> is it true that the pups have to be kept away from mom, for i dont know how many days, after docking because she would lick their wounds?


No, I watched a video of pups being docked and they were with there mum when it was being done, they have it done when only a couple of days old so would be too young to be kept away from mum  In the video the pups showed no sign of pain or distress.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

nic b said:


> No, I watched a video of pups being docked and they were with there mum when it was being done, they have it done when only a couple of days old so would be too young to be kept away from mum  In the video the pups showed no sign of pain or distress.


i agree,i used to work for a cocker breeder and witnessed tail docking,mum was with them,pups were all feeding throughout


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

fluffybunny2001 said:


> i agree,i used to work for a cocker breeder and witnessed tail docking,mum was with them,pups were all feeding throughout


Thanks for that post its made me feel much better,ive always thought it was cruel but cruel to let them get damaged ime now thinking more on the lines of cruel to be kind, if some do feel any pain.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

nic b said:


> No, I watched a video of pups being docked and they were with there mum when it was being done, they have it done when only a couple of days old so would be too young to be kept away from mum  In the video the pups showed no sign of pain or distress.


are u really sure? because i remember reading that on some tail docking site a while ago about pups havin to be kept away from mom for a while.
Yes, the pups return to mom after docking for feeding and so on (and thats probably whats shown on videos ) but have to be supervised and mom has to be prevented from licking their wounds as this could affect the healing process ....so it makes sense that the pups would have to be kept seperated from mom if not supervised


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## Guest (May 8, 2009)

Natik said:


> are u really sure? because i remember reading that on some tail docking site a while ago about pups havin to be kept away from mom for a while.
> Yes, the pups return to mom after docking for feeding and so on (and thats probably whats shown on videos ) but have to be supervised and mom has to be prevented from licking their wounds as this could affect the healing process ....so it makes sense that the pups would have to be kept seperated from mom if not supervised


Well I'm not sure what other people do but I know my dog who is docked wasn't taken away from his mum afterwards.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Natik said:


> is it true that the pups have to be kept away from mom, for i dont know how many days, after docking because she would lick their wounds?


Ive no experience of breeding im afraid, I thought they would be simply banded by a vet or something similar along those lines. I only know that early enough doesnt cause the distress of later (adult) docking


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

none of the litters i helped rear were ever taken from their mother when being docked,before,during or after,there was no blood and the mum never licked thier tails at all.mum was far more interested in getting some sleep.


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

from my experiance the pups are put straight back in with mum and never had any problems with infection


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

james1 said:


> Ive no experience of breeding im afraid, I thought they would be simply banded by a vet or something similar along those lines. I only know that early enough doesnt cause the distress of later (adult) docking


Banding is illegal now choose what the breed, banding was used by people who was docking themselves a vet has never banded


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

no worries Heaveymolly. Thanks


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## sammi3664uk (May 18, 2009)

Can you not take your bitch to ireland to give birth? they can do it their. Thats how our Boxer was done.


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

hayla said:


> hi i was wondering if anyone can help me, i will be breeding my bitch in the next couple of months and when they arrive i will be getting there tails docked(by a vet of course). i was hoping some one could tell me what kind of evidence i need as i am working her on farmers land (with his permission), but the vets say i need better evidence than something from him. could anyone please help me?:sad:


Are all the pups going to be worked?
If not they won't all need there tails docked!!


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

sammi3664uk said:


> Can you not take your bitch to ireland to give birth? they can do it their. Thats how our Boxer was done.


I heard about that, that's NOT a good reason  that's just loopholeing the law. :incazzato::cursing::mad5::mad2:

anyhow it's often puppymillers and bad breeders that are doing this


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by sammi3664uk
> Can you not take your bitch to ireland to give birth? they can do it their. Thats how our Boxer was done.
> 
> ...


I agree, it wouldn't endear me to a breeder.


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## Guest (May 20, 2009)

hayla said:


> hi i was wondering if anyone can help me, i will be breeding my bitch in the next couple of months and when they arrive i will be getting there tails docked(by a vet of course). i was hoping some one could tell me what kind of evidence i need as i am working her on farmers land (with his permission), but the vets say i need better evidence than something from him. could anyone please help me?:sad:


I have read none of the other replies that have been posted on this thread!
You have not mentioned the breed that you are intending docking! but are you assuming that evey pup is going to a working home? because to be honest I ifind that quite unbelievable. Not many vets will dock a full litter now. Would need a little more to go one before passing comment, but are you sure you are not intending docking because you feel that the price that people are willing to pay is considerably higher just because the pup is docked??
regards
DT


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## Guest (May 20, 2009)

sammi3664uk said:


> Can you not take your bitch to ireland to give birth? they can do it their. Thats how our Boxer was done.


What???????????????????? and why??????????????? does your boxer work?????????????? if so what does it do????????????? Yes I will accept that a boxer wags it's tail at seventy miles an hour and could cause damage to both the tail and th it's surroundings - BUT - is this a reason to flount the law?????
Shame on YOU!!!
DT


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

A wolf has a full tail, and the scrapes wolves get into in their daily lives must be horrendous, I don't remember ever seeing packs of wolves with broken tails, I am not entirely convinced that docking is ever necessary.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> A wolf has a full tail, and the scrapes wolves get into in their daily lives must be horrendous, I don't remember ever seeing packs of wolves with broken tails, I am not entirely convinced that docking is ever necessary.


Wolves have different tails compared to say springers or boxers but malamutes and huskies share a simular tail and those are never docked because they are obviously stronger and less likely to get damaged.


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## Guest (May 20, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> Wolves have different tails compared to say springers or boxers but malamutes and huskies share a simular tail and those are never docked because they are obviously stronger and less likely to get damaged.


I did actually see a boxer with a broken tail about 20 years ago! It belonged to a 'then' neighbour of ours who for some reason had aquired this dog undocked!!! It smashed the glass in the front door and did actually create loads of damage in the house - and due to a break ended up being docked anyway - albeit in the wrong place due maybe to it's age! I do think now that breeders are trying to get litters docked because due to their 'rariety' they are under the misconception that the pups will achieve a higher price! 
and imo this is discusting!!! 
DT


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I have read none of the other replies that have been posted on this thread!
> You have not mentioned the breed that you are intending docking! but are you assuming that evey pup is going to a working home? because to be honest I ifind that quite unbelievable. Not many vets will dock a full litter now. Would need a little more to go one before passing comment, but are you sure you are not intending docking because you feel that the price that people are willing to pay is considerably higher just because the pup is docked??
> regards
> DT


a docked working pup does not command a higher price its just more likely to be brought to do what it has been bred for :mad2:and normally a lower price


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## Guest (May 20, 2009)

terriermaid said:


> a docked working pup does not command a higher price its just more likely to be brought to do what it has been bred for :mad2:and normally a lower price


Don't be mad sweetie I have a docked dog and and undocked dog! they are both capable of doing the exact same job! and docked dogs do demand a higher price!
lol
DT


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

im sorry but not in the case of patterdales and terriers in general ,the only increase i've seen in prices is to cover vets fees about £15 per pup


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## Guest (May 20, 2009)

So let us just take a look at patterdales then! how many are there in the UK, and how many are actually working? Sorry - But I think that owning a docked dog is fast becoming a status symble.

IMO - the only dog that should be docked is an ESS - and yes! I have seen these dogs with damaged tails
DT


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## sokeldachshunds (Jun 8, 2008)

I really cant get my head around this theory about working dogs damaging their tails,Untill last year when my last one died I have always had a dalmatian,now anyone that knows dalmatians they will know they never stop wagging their tails.in the 25 yrs I had them not once did I have a damaged tail on any of them.And yes they used to crash through the undergrowth.
My uncle has working springers and working cockers, he has never docked any of his dogs and again in all the years he has had them not once has he had a tail injury 

I have a feeling if any of your patterdales went into a pet home and someone reported a puppy in a pet home with a docked tail you would be in trouble


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## hayla (Dec 31, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I have read none of the other replies that have been posted on this thread!
> You have not mentioned the breed that you are intending docking! but are you assuming that evey pup is going to a working home? because to be honest I ifind that quite unbelievable. Not many vets will dock a full litter now. Would need a little more to go one before passing comment, but are you sure you are not intending docking because you feel that the price that people are willing to pay is considerably higher just because the pup is docked??
> regards
> DT


i have mentioed the breed if you look at the posts, and yes i have homes lined up for the pups working homes which are friends and fellow terrier men. I AM NOT DOCKING TO MAKE MONEY.


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

there are many many patts working in this country as lakeland fells and russells ,the main law seems to be you cannot show the dogs where admisson is charged at the gate for general public ,and even champs shows are now taking the charge off so dogs can still be shown or pups are judged outside the show ground at gamefairs (to keep inside the law) i,m not arguing with you i no longer dock my russells and have been very lucky that there tails are no longer than borders ,but people are still docking terriers that work within the law


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## Guest (May 20, 2009)

hayla said:


> i have mentioed the breed if you look at the posts, and yes i have homes lined up for the pups working homes which are friends and fellow terrier men. I AM NOT DOCKING TO MAKE MONEY.


I am not going to argue this! it's not worth it! I will admit to knowing little of the breed! but I cannot even begin to consider them anymore 'nesessarily' to be docked then say the JRT !!! Which I do know about!!! I'll end it there because nothing is going to convince me otherwise
DT


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## nickylowe40 (Apr 13, 2009)

i haven't read all the posts on this thread, but i bought a JRT bitch, ellie, a few weeks back and she is docked. I was that excited, i never thought about asking them why. I'm not happy as she is a pet, not a working dog, so why do it?


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## Guest (May 21, 2009)

nickylowe40 said:


> i haven't read all the posts on this thread, but i bought a JRT bitch, ellie, a few weeks back and she is docked. I was that excited, i never thought about asking them why. I'm not happy as she is a pet, not a working dog, so why do it?


I believe that if you have purchased a pup that has been docked after the law was brought into place then the breeder should supply paperwork confirming that the docking is legal!

I am sorry I can off no more advice then this but would suspect that someone will give you more information shortly
DT


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## Guest (May 21, 2009)

nickylowe40 said:


> i haven't read all the posts on this thread, but i bought a JRT bitch, ellie, a few weeks back and she is docked. I was that excited, i never thought about asking them why. I'm not happy as she is a pet, not a working dog, so why do it?


I think part of the problem is at the time of docking you don't know which dogs will work and which won't.
Even in a litter of gundogs i.e Springers,you can't say for sure all those dogs will work,one or two maybe gunshy etc....


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## emmisoli (Mar 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> is it true that the pups have to be kept away from mom, for i dont know how many days, after docking because she would lick their wounds?


No that isn't true..... it is more distessing having their dew claws removed than tail docked....they have wounds from dew claws and I never kept my bitch away from any of them only whilst the procedure was done 30 secs tops! they have stuff (antibiotic type cream that is put on the end and it seals it and helps prevent infection (although the mum will still lick at it) 
Thats how ours have been done in the past anyway

As for docking, they always stayed with mum through the procedure and never once cried like they do for the claws!!


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## sammi3664uk (May 18, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> I heard about that, that's NOT a good reason  that's just loopholeing the law. :incazzato::cursing::mad5::mad2:
> 
> anyhow it's often puppymillers and bad breeders that are doing this


First of all id like to say, if the vet needs more proof and they can't get any then i dont see why not.

The breeded we got her off is a very good breeder, if we no longer want her they want her straight back! not like some breeders that don't care if they go in to dog homes etc etc

and i've seen dogs tails that have been so injured due to wacking it against things its cruel for then to have a tail!!!

As long as its done professional and you have a certificate as i do!


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

sammi3664uk said:


> First of all id like to say, if the vet needs more proof and they can't get any then i dont see why not.
> 
> The breeded we got her off is a very good breeder, if we no longer want her they want her straight back! not like some breeders that don't care if they go in to dog homes etc etc
> 
> ...


Boxers aren't working dogs so can't legally be docked here, taking a pregnant bitch across to Ireland just so you can evade the law here and have the pups tails docked is wrong.

I know of at least 6 boxers who all have tails and are very happy to have tails and have had no problems.

I stub my toes all the time does that mean I should have had my toes removed as a kid? :

Also I had a accidental litter of puppies and offered to take all mine back, that does not make me a good breeder.


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## Guest (May 21, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> Also I had a accidental litter of puppies and offered to take all mine back, that does not make me a good breeder.


Definatly not!
There is more to been a good breeder than taking back a puppy.


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## Agility Springer (Mar 15, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> So let us just take a look at patterdales then! how many are there in the UK, and how many are actually working? Sorry - But I think that owning a docked dog is fast becoming a status symble.
> 
> IMO - the only dog that should be docked is an ESS - and yes! I have seen these dogs with damaged tails
> DT


I aquired my springer when she was a month old, she had already damaged her tail, it was broken and had healed unaided, she now has a lump on her tail where the bone broke, i dont know how she damaged it as she had obtained this before she came to me, however she is not a working dog, purly a pet, i must admit i much prefere to see springers with a tail, i understand this argument that workers will be damaged, but to the OP are you truly intending on sending the entire litter to working owners? how can you garantee this? i feel docking is an unesercarry "cosmetic option" for many people and if the dog does not work, then why?

And as for the poster who took their dog to ireland to evade the law in this country, what do you work your dog for? if you do? or do you think your boxer looks better minus his tail? dogs where born with tails, why take them away? especially when its not essential, if you intend to ensure all these pups work then you are going to need a hell of a lot of proof, no reputable vet these days will willingly dock the whole litter, one or two maybe, if you have the evidence, i am sorry if this seems harsh or even unknowledgable, i am just voicing my opinion on something i feel is unessercary, as before mentioned, removal of the dew claw, dogs are born with these adapations, why take them away, especially if we bred these traits into hese breeds, what gives us the right to take this away??


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## englishspringers (May 22, 2009)

my english springer spaniels tails dont get docked..they stay with their rightful owners lol..


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

englishspringers said:


> my english springer spaniels tails dont get docked..they stay with their rightful owners lol..


do you work them?


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## englishspringers (May 22, 2009)

no i dont work them..we have a 2yr old stud..he still has his tail and his misses is a x springer so she has hers too...all pups have their tails when they leave..


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

englishspringers said:


> no i dont work them..we have a 2yr old stud..he still has his tail and his misses is a x springer so she has hers too...all pups have their tails when they leave..


I woudn't have mine done if they didn't work i don't think. MY springer and cocker are both docked


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## englishspringers (May 22, 2009)

mine are family doggies..my stud is liver and white and my girl is brown, shes a springer x retreiver


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## Agility Springer (Mar 15, 2009)

englishspringers said:


> my english springer spaniels tails dont get docked..they stay with their rightful owners lol..


Mine to  best place for a tail is on a dog imo  x


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## Guest (May 22, 2009)

Agility Springer said:


> Mine to  best place for a tail is on a dog imo  x


I agree I don't think dogs tails should be docked, it is so different having a dog with a tail. I know you are talking big dogs here and I only have a tiny dog but my last Yorkie had no tail and Holly does have her tail and i love it. its like she talks extra language to what my last dog did.


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## Agility Springer (Mar 15, 2009)

I agree Pamela, i think a dog wags its tail with its heart


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

their tails still wag even with docked tails, personally I think the fragility of a springers tail is a good reason to allow their docking. We've just got a new pup with a full tail and id hate to see him in pain from it  (i have 2 springers)


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Barney's tail was docked badly but it was not my choice, sadly he was docked before the law.

All the pups I had I made sure 100% they would keep their tails even if they are springer mixes. 

Sorry but you shouldn't take a dogs tail just because it may damage it, i know many springers, danes, boxers and rotties who live happily with tails.

The only reason a dog's tail should be docked is for working and that's it.


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## sammi3664uk (May 18, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> What???????????????????? and why??????????????? does your boxer work?????????????? if so what does it do????????????? Yes I will accept that a boxer wags it's tail at seventy miles an hour and could cause damage to both the tail and th it's surroundings - BUT - is this a reason to flount the law?????
> Shame on YOU!!!
> DT


That is how we brought her from the breeder We've known the breeder for a long time so we wouldn't go any where else to get one! It don't bother me if they have tails or not i dont think its cruel personally. No my boxer don't work, she's is just a pet. She's happy and thats all that matters.

I was just saying it would be better to go and get it done in ireland rather that mess around trying to get proof etc etc to dock the tails.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

my old springer was undocked it was'nt a whippy fragile tail but thick, he was originally a working springer (but he wouldnt work!!)


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## englishspringers (May 22, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I agree with docking for dogs such as springers, as it must be terrible for them when they are broken or badly damaged, i just hate to think how it feels for them when they have them docked, ime not saying its cruel as i think its cruel to allow them to be damage. Ive had 2 out of 3 with docked tails, have never worked them.


my boy hasnt a docked tail...:ihih:


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

SpringerHusky said:


> Barney's tail was docked badly but it was not my choice, sadly he was docked before the law.
> 
> All the pups I had I made sure 100% they would keep their tails even if they are springer mixes.
> 
> ...


The problem is when it is damaged and the dog is fully grown, sucessfully getting it docked is hit and miss. If they break and are then docked as adults the dog is in much more pain than when it were a pup where it heals less quickly. In adults the healing process is extended, usually leading to more and more tail being lost and repeated surgery being needed. 
Its all well and good say if its not worked then it shouldnt be allowed but owners have different regimes as far as exercise. Some may do agility, others may keep to parks, others may like country/hill hikes. If your in the open countryside there are all manner of things that can injur them as opposed to more regular park visits. Even with agility the speed at which they travel they could easily bang it against something though the environments are usually controlled


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

sammi3664uk said:


> That is how we brought her from the breeder We've known the breeder for a long time so we wouldn't go any where else to get one! It don't bother me if they have tails or not i dont think its cruel personally. No my boxer don't work, she's is just a pet. She's happy and thats all that matters.
> 
> I was just saying it would be better to go and get it done in ireland rather that mess around trying to get proof etc etc to dock the tails.


So you think it is 'better' to take your pregnant bitch on a long journey over to a strange place thus causing her stress at the the time of her life that should be kept as stress-free for her as possible? Highly unfair on the bitch and extremely pointless imho. She might be happy but i'm sure she'd be equally as happy with her tail. Dogs who are permenantly kenneled can have very badly damaged tails (especially thinner-tailed breeds like Weims, Staffords and Danes) which may result in the tail needing to be docked, but if your pups are bred for pets, I do not see any point in docking their tails. It's very rare that a dog will damage it's tail in an ordinary, home environment.


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## Agility Springer (Mar 15, 2009)

james1 said:


> their tails still wag even with docked tails, personally I think the fragility of a springers tail is a good reason to allow their docking. We've just got a new pup with a full tail and id hate to see him in pain from it  (i have 2 springers)





james1 said:


> The problem is when it is damaged and the dog is fully grown, sucessfully getting it docked is hit and miss. If they break and are then docked as adults the dog is in much more pain than when it were a pup where it heals less quickly. In adults the healing process is extended, usually leading to more and more tail being lost and repeated surgery being needed.
> Its all well and good say if its not worked then it shouldnt be allowed but owners have different regimes as far as exercise. Some may do agility, others may keep to parks, others may like country/hill hikes. If your in the open countryside there are all manner of things that can injur them as opposed to more regular park visits. Even with agility the speed at which they travel they could easily bang it against something though the environments are usually controlled


As you might guess from my name, my springer does agility, she also hikes with me, takes part in bike rides, runs through braken and she has never ever ever damaged her tail she has a thick, sturdy tail, i would never consider docking her tail, she doesnt need it, most dogs dont, i dont agree that springers have a fragile tail, they wouldnt be born with them otherwise, she is happy and healthy and the only trouble she had with her tail is when she was a pup and it was fragile, no problems since, i know its personal preference i just dont agree with everyone suggesting springers need it most, my dog also did gundog training for a short period but she was gun shy, the chap who was training us had 6 springers, not one was docked and not one had ever had problems with their tails, all where working dogs


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## sammi3664uk (May 18, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> Boxers aren't working dogs so can't legally be docked here, taking a pregnant bitch across to Ireland just so you can evade the law here and have the pups tails docked is wrong.
> 
> I know of at least 6 boxers who all have tails and are very happy to have tails and have had no problems.
> 
> ...


Not all breeders take pups back if they no longer have a home, which is why their are so many dogs that need homes. If the breeder can't look after them ALL then they shouldn't breed dogs thats how i look at it anyway.

I myself never took her across to have the pups! but it was all done legal and thats all that matters! i have proof of that.

I've heard of stories where people have tried to dock their pups them self with scissors and hot water! they were in a lot of pain and a couple died through it. If docking was still allowed these pups would still be here today!

should a dog get docked legally? or risk people doing it to them illegal and causing suffering or even death!, or leave them with tails and risk it getting damaged cos they wack anything and everything and having to get it docked anyway!!! The End.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

sammi3664uk said:


> Not all breeders take pups back if they no longer have a home, which is why their are so many dogs that need homes. If the breeder can't look after them ALL then they shouldn't breed dogs thats how i look at it anyway.
> 
> I myself never took her across to have the pups! but it was all done legal and thats all that matters! i have proof of that.
> 
> ...


that's a really good point!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sammi3664uk said:


> I've heard of stories where people have tried to dock their pups them self with scissors and hot water! they were in a lot of pain and a couple died through it. If docking was still allowed these pups would still be here today!
> .


i assume its breeders u referring this to, then those people shouldnt have been breeding those dogs in first place ....absolutely irresponsible.


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## Guest (May 23, 2009)

Agility Springer said:


> As you might guess from my name, my springer does agility, she also hikes with me, takes part in bike rides, runs through braken and she has never ever ever damaged her tail she has a thick, sturdy tail, i would never consider docking her tail, she doesnt need it, most dogs dont, i dont agree that springers have a fragile tail, they wouldnt be born with them otherwise, she is happy and healthy and the only trouble she had with her tail is when she was a pup and it was fragile, no problems since, i know its personal preference i just dont agree with everyone suggesting springers need it most, my dog also did gundog training for a short period but she was gun shy, the chap who was training us had 6 springers, not one was docked and not one had ever had problems with their tails, all where working dogs


Where these truly working dogs or were they working trial dogs?
What type of cover did they work?
How many days a week did these dogs work?


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## gavloz1 (May 23, 2009)

reddogs said:


> But it is equally barbaric when it is required because of damage caused to the tail - I haven't had a dog that has needed to be docked but I have seen the damage on others - not nice at all
> 
> Please don't believe that I support docking for cosmetic reasons only but I do for working (true working) breeds


I agree, we have a working springer spaniel who is totally obsessed with what she does, but when we bought her she had a tail. unfortunatly due to her keeness in her job her tail was so badly damaged that we had to have her tail amputed approx 5 inches, this was a traumatic time for her as it has taken nearly 10 weeks for it to be right. Our vet recommended this be done and he told us that if she was docked as a pup like our other working springer it would have been less traumatic. Yes i do not believe in docking a dogs tail just so that they look good but if they are working and come from a working breed then yes i agree with it


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## Guest (May 23, 2009)

gavloz1 said:


> I agree, we have a working springer spaniel who is totally obsessed with what she does, but when we had her she had a tail. unfortunatly due to her keeness in her job her tail was so badly damaged that we had to have her tail amputed approx 5 inches, this was a traumatic time for her as it has taken nearly 10 weeks for it to be right. Our vet recommended this be done and he told us that if she was docked as a pup like our other working springer it would have been less traumatic. Yes i do not believe in docking a dogs tail just so that they look good but if they are working and come from a working breed then yes i agree with it


Hello and welcome
I'm relieved we have someone who has had first hand experience of the horrors that can occur to undocked spaniels.
Hope your dog recovers soon


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## Agility Springer (Mar 15, 2009)

rona said:


> Where these truly working dogs or were they working trial dogs?
> What type of cover did they work?
> How many days a week did these dogs work?


They where true workers, at least 3-4 times a week i gather, they covered beating line, picking up line and rough shooting.

I do sometimes agree with everyone that it is better to dock for workers, but only in the case if they are to work full time, i didnt feel it nesercary (sp) for my springer as she was never really intended to work, I just feel that many breeders are using this excuse in order to get the pups docked, whn this thread has shown that man people prefere their pets to have a tal, (im talking about pets now) if the dog is definatly intended for full time work in the field ten yes, i agree docking is more humane and practical, but i feel not always nesercary (sp)


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