# color, pattern, + k9-health: blue, pie, merle, dapple, dilute



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hey, y'all! :--)

a Doxie-breeder is selling one piebald-M and one dapple-F puppy, siblings, on my local Craigslist:


> ready for Xmas morning!  _perky smile and cheerful voice _


she had an on-line hissy-fit when i posted that both pie + dapple have associated possible health-issues, 
for the individual dog and any potential progeny.

she said - 


> In dachshunds, dapple and piebald are not the problem -
> it is when you double these patterns that you ask for a variety of serious health issues. *Do your research people! *


so, specific to Dachshunds, piebald + dapple coat-patterns can be associated with being blind, deaf, partial sight, 
monaural, cardiac and liver problems, shunts, abnormal heart valves, underdeveloped or entirely missing eyes, 
night-blind, day-blind, SKIN issues including Bald, severe allergies, reduced immune function, etc. 
these are not necessarily DOUBLE-dilute AKA merle-to-merle progeny; just dapple + piebald dogs. 
obviously, merle-to-merle is only one of several UN-ethical choices for stud and dam! :frown2:

BLUE (gray) + DILUTE (cream, buff, etc) as well as MERLE pattern also have ** specific health concerns ** - 
a blue-and-fawn dog of ANY breed has the potential for health problems.

see
health issues

and from Welcome to DCA
EXCERPT -


> The list of colors and patterns below are those that can occur in the Dachshund.
> It should be noted that neither the double-dapple nor the piebald pattern is recognized in the breed standard
> that describes the ideal Dachshund, nor are they representative of the "acceptable" or "permissible" amount
> of white specified therein.


also EXCERPT -


> double dapple breeding... (meaning dapple to dapple breeding)
> deaf and partially deaf puppies may result... Reduced eye size and missing eyes are not that uncommon...


Catahoula Information » Catahoula Issues » The Merle Gene
EXCERPT:


> ...phenotype cannot be used to identify a double merle.
> The only... identification is via DNA-testing... currently...
> offered by GenMark, of Vita-Tech Laboratories.


Falling Branch Jack Russell Terriers - by Dr. George M. Strain, Prof of Neuroscience
School of Veterinary Medicine; Assoc. Vice Chancellor of Research, Office of Research & Graduate Studies
Louisiana State University; Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70803

Great Dane Club of America - Merle Gene Testing

PHENOTYPE IS NOT GENOTYPE: 
Danes and the mantle pattern - one visible result can have 5 gene-bases

StandardCoatColor

http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/TuftsTalk.ppt

marking patterns and genetics in Boxers: 
Marking Patterns in Boxers: Standard, Genetics and Inheritance | Suite101.com

a page of links: 
Recreation : Pets : Dogs : Genetics : Coat_and_Coloration : Genes : Piebald : - Nomoz.org 
Aussies, Dals, Spinone, BCs, Dane mantle, Anatolian

Dalmations: patches, blue-eyes, and risk of deafness 
Dalmatian Telegraph- GStrain

EXCERPT - 


> When the extreme piebald gene is weakly expressed, white does not entirely cover the underlying coat-color of black or liver, and a patch develops; these dogs are statistically less likely to become deaf (but this CAN happen - it is just unusual).
> When the extreme-piebald gene is strongly expressed, melanocytes in the iris are suppressed, giving a blue eye;
> melanocytes behind the retina are suppressed, giving the red eye-shine from the unmasked blood-vessels;
> and melanocytes in the stria vascularis are suppressed, giving deafness.
> ...


Setters: 
October Setters/Deafness 
OR tiny-url: yad9zct

Shelties: 
Sheltie coat color genetics [Athro, Limited]

OR tiny-url: ybczzgg

Deafness in dogs: over 40 breeds - 
Kuvasz - Genetics of Deafness in Dogs

Canine Color Genetics: 
Coat Color Genetics 
OR tiny-url: ybltou8

HTML version of a pdf-file: 
ACDs and deafness, Strains 2004 talk at the annual Conf.
PowerPoint Presentation 
OR tiny-url: yep3zq5

_*in post #2, i will post some links on Blue-Dog Syndrome - 
an auto-immune weakness that is also found in other dilutes, 
such as blue-and-fawn (dilute of black-and-tan), Isabella, cream, etc. *_

best regards, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

genetics and variation in phenotype in blue Mudis: 
Hopeaketut: Blue Dog Syndrome - Gene Research

http://www.vetguru.com/notes/derm.pdf

this pdf-file includes photos of fawn-dog alopecia, leather ear, chronic demodex and other skin, coat, ear, 
auto-immune and similar problems that are associated with DILUTE coat-colors - blue, blue-fawn, cream, etc. 
such DILUTE coat-colors have blue or grey noses, Dudley or putty noses, 
etc - Not Black Noses.

from: 
CONTRACT

EXCERPT: 


> ...the blue coat coloring in most breeds is associated with skin problems. Blue-coated dogs of all breeds
> are more prone to bacterial, viral, staph and fungal infections as well as various forms of dematitis, allergies,
> demodex and color mutant alopecia... we do not guarantee against any skin or coat problems that are common
> for the dogs with the blue coat coloring.
> ...


Grey-Collie syndrome AKA Canine Cyclic Neutropenia - 
Gray Collie Syndrome

EXCERPT - 


> ...clinical signs: fever, diarrhea, joint pain, or other signs associated with eye, respiratory, or skin infections.
> The disorder is caused by an abnormality of the stem cells in the bone marrow, from which all blood cells are
> developed. The result is a cyclic fluctuation in blood cell numbers. Every 10 to 12 days the number of neutrophils
> drops dramatically, and then rebounds.
> ...


HealthGene - Genetic DNA Testing


> HealthGene Laboratory is the first DNA diagnostic laboratory that has developed and offered a DNA-based test
> for Canine Cyclic Neutropenia. HealthGene's test provides a reliable identification of dogs that carry mutant gene(s).
> This test allows a breeder to control the mutant gene frequency in the Collie breed thus preventing the production
> of puppies affected with Canine Cyclic Neutropenia. This DNA test accurately and specifically identifies normal,
> carriers (heterozygous) and affected dogs.


cheers, 
--- terry


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## Oenoke (Oct 17, 2009)

Ok, I haven't read it all, I will do, but I read the links referring to dilute as I have blue Border Collie, she hasn't any of the problems that are referred to. She has really fluffy ears and a lovely coat, I do know some blues can have dilute alopecia, although none of the blues I have met have no more than bald ears, but mine doesn't.

I was more concerned by the Gray Collie Syndrome link you gave, this just isn't true, it states "affected dogs rarely live beyond 2 or 3 years of age. Most die within the first few weeks.

The disease occurs in all gray (not merle) collies." My girl is coming up for 4 years old and has not had any of the relevant problems, and this link says that she should be dead as it occurs in all gray collies. It sounds very similar to TNS which has a DNA test now and occurs in any colour if 2 carriers are bred together.



leashedForLife said:


> ...clinical signs: fever, diarrhea, joint pain, or other signs associated with eye, respiratory, or skin infections.
> The disorder is caused by an abnormality of the stem cells in the bone marrow, from which all blood cells are
> developed. The result is a cyclic fluctuation in blood cell numbers. Every 10 to 12 days the number of neutrophils
> drops dramatically, and then rebounds.
> ...


Here is a pic of my girl taken in August to show how fit and well she is, she has a lovely shiny coat and it shows how fluffy her ears are.


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

i havn't read half this post ,but in the uk daxys of this breeding will no longer be eligible for registration after the new year


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re terrierMaid -



> in the uk (Dachsies) of this breeding will no longer be eligible
> for registration after the new year


YAY, good news! :thumbup1::thumbup1:
thanks, Maidie...  i am glad to hear it, that means USA breeders who want to show internationally will have to watch their ps + qs - they may not be able to show some of their dogs, even those who are, A-hem, _winners..._ here,  >>> over There! 

re merle *arising spontaneously* in new breeds, yeah Right! 
some eejit just OUT-crossed Chihuahuas to ** import ** the merle-pattern, ai-yi-yi, how stoopid... :frown2:  
Chis have enuf health problems already, they do Not Need more, and NEW ones.  
irresponsible fools, all they care about is selling folks the RARE new merle-Chi... :mad2: 
for TWICE the price of a (healthy, traditional) fawn, patched, or solid! 
some ppl have all the ethical consideration of a slave-owner, i swear. 

best regards, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re post #3 - oenoke



> It sounds very similar to TNS which has a DNA test now and occurs in any colour if 2 carriers are bred together.


hey, nokee! :--)

please, what is TNS? i have no idea, thanks for any info. :thumbup1:

maybe it is my PC, but the photo of the lovely dog looks like a liver + white, 
AKA chocolate + white, long-coated collie? not grey at all... 
and as the article said, the NOSE is always grey in color (definitive). 
Ur dog looks like a Dudley or toffee or putty nose-color. 
(but i am only seeing it as a bit, from the side; the dogs eyes with a putty or Dudley nose are often yellow or hazel).

i have not SEEN a grey-collie, not a pup nor an adult, ever; 
but on that linked page (above) are 2 or 3 pup-pix -- 
note how much smaller and very under-developed the grey pups appear; 
they are 2/3 or less the size of the normal pups, pretty obvious they are not normal. 

cheers, 
--- terry


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## Oenoke (Oct 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> re post #3 - oenoke
> 
> hey, nokee! :--)
> 
> ...


Here's a link to information about TNS (Trapped Neutrophil Syndrome) TNS there are some further links at the bottom.

My girl is definately a blue and white Border Collie, maybe the sun on her in that pic was making her look red. Here's a couple more pics of her that hopefully will show she's a blue and white. (http://bryningbordercollies.com/Border-Collie-Colours you will see all the colours of Border Collies including blue and white, blue tri, slate merle, lilac, ... . They also have some puppies at the moment out of a slate merle bitch to a blue and white dog http://bryningbordercollies.com/Viggo-x-Dazzle, so all puppies are dilutes.)

















I did some searching on the internet for this Gray Collie Syndrome and it looks like it's in Rough and Smooth Collies not Border Collies.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

NOW i can see her clour, or at least it must be a lot more like it! thanks... :thumbup:
and she is gorgerous, and very-much blue. i would not describe her as grey, that is sure! 
and her nose appears darker than her coat-colour, which is all to the good... 

pigment expression can be variable, and the more pigment, the better! :yesnod: 

if U do not mind - what color are her eyes? 
from the lower picture they appear to be blue - but in the upper one, with the sun 
behind her, they look brown, altho perhaps lighter than the deep-brown i often see in dark dogs. 

i have no problem at all seeing that she is quintessentially healthy! 
but i do not think she is what they call a grey-collie, no matter what breed we are talking about. 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## Oenoke (Oct 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> NOW i can see her clour, or at least it must be a lot more like it! thanks... :thumbup:
> and she is gorgerous, and very-much blue. i would not describe her as grey, that is sure!
> and her nose appears darker than her coat-colour, which is all to the good...
> 
> ...


Her eyes are a sort of greeny colour, maybe you can see from this pic.









and here's a pic of her at 6 days old, she was really silver grey then (blue Border Collies get darker as they get older and alot you can only see they are blue if they are next to a black and white).









and a pic with her litter, the 1 she has her head against is a slate merle (dilute of blue merle) and he too is perfectly healthy, I last saw him in September.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

thank U for the close-up, yes, i would call her eyes hazel - 
very pretty too. 

the shot of the litter is very telling - all of them much of a size, 
all obviously thriving pups; no tiny, puny pups who are weaker and markedly thinner! 
everybody is busy growing + gaining as they should be. :thumbup: 

a pups full-time job as a neonate is to grow... eating + sleeping are the means to attain that end.  
it is so nice to see healthy pups in a clean environment; i get so disgusted with the common breeders here, 
the dog + her litter shoved casually in a shed or garage!  among the stinks of fertilizer and weedkiller and mouse-bait, ye gods. 

thanks for the lovely photos, they gave me a smile, :thumbup1:
--- terry


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