# Pickle's kittens born 7th May :)



## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Hi all just thought i'd update you and then i'm going to try and get a couple of hours sleep! Pickle woke me at about 2am having strong contractions. Unfortunately first kitten was still born, however she then had another 4 quite quickly. At about 5.30 I got back into bed (she is in a box beside my bed) and dozed off. Sadly when I got up at about 7am she had had another one who was stillborn  But good news is she has got 4 lovely little babies (can't believe she was pregnant with 6 she didn't look that big!). There are 2 blacks, 1 black tortie and a black and white solid. The two black ones are a bit smaller so will keep an eye on them for the next couple of days.

She is doing well, she got a bit overwhelmed I think and I had to break the sacks on each of the kittens as when they were born she went straight to eat the placentas but didn't bother about the kitten until she had finished doing that which I suspect is how the last one was lost. She is huddled in the corner of the box with them so am leaving them alone for a bit to let her settle and then will get everything cleaned up. Tully has already been in and had a nose to see if there are more babies she can adopt!

Will get some pics later when she is more settled. She wouldn't come out of the box for food so I have hand fed her some chicken and they are all feeding now.


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

That's great news Chloe , so sorry that two little ones did'nt make it ( RIP ) 

Well done Pickle  Sounds like a nice looking litter 

Look forward to seeing the pics of the wee ones  Try and get a bit of shut-eye Chloe been a busy week for you 

ETA ...... Just read Chilli is due today aswell :yikes::yikes:


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_sorry about the two still born, R I P little ones.
Glad mum and the other babies are ok, look forward to updates and pictures once you have had some sleep, xxxxxx_


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

RIP tiny babies. xxxx

Good news on the others born, paws crossed all goes well. xxx


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Well done Pickle and congrats to you both 


I'm so sorry to hear of the 2 that were born asleep  RIP little ones xx


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## Hb-mini (May 20, 2009)

Congratulations on your new litter. 
So sorry to hear about the littles ones you lost.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

tincan said:


> That's great news Chloe , so sorry that two little ones did'nt make it ( RIP )
> 
> Well done Pickle  Sounds like a nice looking litter
> 
> ...


Thanks, she is doing great. Chilli is actually due Thursday accidently put the 7th ooops, probably lack of sleep. Expecting her to deliver on time too, probably in the early hours on Thursday. A bit nervous about her now as she is much fatter than Tully or Pickle were :yikes:


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

First picture of the new babies. Pickle has settled down well with them now, think it came as a bit of a shock to her and I have managed to get her to have some more food in the box with her. The little black tortie is going to be a mini Rhubarb 

Also for the first time ever she is purring. She is not a grumpy cat she just doesn't purr but today she has 








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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Sorry to hear about the babies that didn't make it. Hope all goes well with the others and look forward to seeing more pics of them and pickle x


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## vivien (Jul 20, 2009)

Congratulations to you and pickle. Sorry to hear about the 2 that didn't make it. 
( RIP little ones ) 

Viv xx


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## Ingrid25 (Oct 1, 2011)

Gorgeous:001_wub:
Congratulations!
RIP to the bubs who didn't make it.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Hi everyone just a little update on Pickle. Mum and babies seem to be doing fine. Have had a couple of wobbles but knew Pickle was never going to be the smoothest of rides! Kittens are smaller than Tully's around 100-110gms each which isn't bad and they will soon grow. Only put on a few gms since yesterday but i normally find first couple of days a bit slow which is why I don't usually weigh every day. I was a little bit worried yesterday as firstly she didn't seemed to have much milk her nipples didn't look that big so have had bottles on standby but fortunately today they seem much bigger and kittens are suckling easily. Also although she has been in the box the last 24hrs and has snuggled and fed the kittens apart from the initial clean up she hadn't shown any sign of washing and cleaning the kittens but I have seen her washing them this morning so again all good. Probably doesn't help that Tully is an obsessive cleaner, her kittens will never be dirty  So all in all a bit of a slow start but looking much better now. Kittens are really cute too, will get some more pics soon.

**Sigh** now just waiting for Chilli (expecting it to be early hours tomorrow) and then I might get a nights sleep lol x


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Morning Chloe  .... 

Hope the wobbles with Pickle and her babies is over for you ... How are they today ? So D-Day has arrived for Chilli , and we all wait patiently to see her little brood born safe & sound  Hope she's on time , and all goes smoothly ... Good Luck


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Morning

Thought Chilli might deliver last night but still waiting this morning. She has hissed and growled at me this morning though so taking that as a good sign- last time she didn't want me near her when she gave birth, only my son. She is very much his 'buddy' so hopefully not long to wait.

Pickles kittens seem to be doing ok. Weighed them this morning and smallest is 115gms and biggest 130gms so have all gained now. She seems a lot more contented and settled now so looking good  Will try and get some pictures later.


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## Hb-mini (May 20, 2009)

Ahh pleased to hear all is going well, sorry if I missed it but what ratio of girls and boys do we have in this litter? It was the other litter that was all boys wasn't it?
Good luck with Chilli's labour.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Hb-mini said:


> Ahh pleased to hear all is going well, sorry if I missed it but what ratio of girls and boys do we have in this litter? It was the other litter that was all boys wasn't it?
> Good luck with Chilli's labour.


Still waiting for Chilli, she is showing all the signs but keeping us hanging on, have a feeling it will be another early morning delivery!

Pickle has got 3 girls (1 black, 1 black/white and 1 tortie) and 1 boy (black)


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## Hb-mini (May 20, 2009)

chloe1975 said:


> Still waiting for Chilli, she is showing all the signs but keeping us hanging on, have a feeling it will be another early morning delivery!
> 
> Pickle has got 3 girls (1 black, 1 black/white and 1 tortie) and 1 boy (black)


Ahh lovely.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Nearly missed these little sweeties - congratulations Pickles and I am sorry for the loss of two tinies Chloe  Never easy at an age 
Look forward to hearing Chilli's news soon and wishing her all the best :thumbsup:


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Pickles kittens are now 5 days old and doing well, after the early wobbles and feeding problems. Her milk seems to be coming in fine down and she is a lovely mum, so attentive. I am having to hand feed her as she doesn't want to leave the box and then she has another bowl of food and water just next to the box when she does occassionally venture out. The little Tortie girl is almost identical to Chilli's last baby Rhubarb with the split face so she will be adorable (Rhubarb is Pickles half sister- same dad and Pickles kittens are from Chilli's dad, all getting a bit Jeremy Kyle!) All gaining weight now the little black one I had so many problems with was 100gms when born is now 150gms, the others who were around 110gms when born are now about 170-180gms.

Anyway here are the little sweeties 








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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

I thought I would update this with some new pics. Pickle's kittens are 3 weeks old tomorrow (where does the time go?!). As some of you will know from some of the other threads Pickle hasn't had an easy time of things and that sadly one of her kittens (one of the 2 blacks) passed away at the weekend after developing flat chested kitten syndrome  However the remaining 3 are doing really well and growing at a good rate, they have overtaken Tully's by quite a bit. They are all trying to currently climb out of their den so won't be long before they move downstairs 








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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_sorry to hear one of the little black ones didnt make it, . But the other 3 looks gorgeous, and just look at that little tortie, we need more pictures of her please.......:thumbup:_


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

colliemerles said:


> _sorry to hear one of the little black ones didnt make it, . But the other 3 looks gorgeous, and just look at that little tortie, we need more pictures of her please.......:thumbup:_


here she is ..........








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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_OMG !!!!!!! shes just beautiful, just look at that perfect little split face, wow, gorgeous gorgeous gorgeous !!!!!! are you keeping her, or do you have enough lol._


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

colliemerles said:


> _OMG !!!!!!! shes just beautiful, just look at that perfect little split face, wow, gorgeous gorgeous gorgeous !!!!!! are you keeping her, or do you have enough lol._


I am tempted but as you can see she is almost exactly the same as Rhubarb who we kept from Chilli's last litter, although the split is the opposite side. Am still thinking about it 








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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

aww its like a mirror image lol, you MUST keep her shes gorgeous !!!! as is rhubarb of course ......:001_wub::001_wub:


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

And you can call her Crumble !!!!!!............


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

Congratulations, I love the tortie, beautiful markings, sorry to hear about the ones which didn't survive.


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## Velcro (May 20, 2013)

colliemerles said:


> And you can call her Crumble !!!!!!............


I was about to suggest custard lol xD

pretty little kitties

Such a shame about the babies born asleep ):


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Velcro said:


> I was about to suggest custard lol xD
> 
> pretty little kitties
> 
> Such a shame about the babies born asleep ):


lol we've already got a custard  but will think about crumble


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## Velcro (May 20, 2013)

Ohhh hahaha, I would find it hard to not be constantly hungry at your place with the dessert themed kitties! xD


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Wow, send crumble to me please, what a stunning naughty tortie she will be. xxxx


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

catcoonz said:


> Wow, send crumble to me please, what a stunning naughty tortie she will be. xxxx


_Oi you allready have several maine coons !!!! so get to the back of the line.,:nono:,:lol:,:lol:_


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

But you know 8 mainecoons is never enough. xxxx


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Awwww, I love split faced torties - send her to me!


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Lovely pics

Sorry about the loss of the other kittens.

I lurrrve split nose torties :001_wub::001_wub::001_wub::001_wub:


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Pickles kittens are now 5 weeks old and growing well. The black and white kitten is the biggest of all three litters (Tully, Pickle and Chilli) as he is now almost 800g! So think he will be a whopper! The three are doing lovely. The little tortie girl (Crumble to go with Rhubarb) is lovely, she's a sweet natured girl who loves to sit on your lap (not a naughty tortie at all yet!), the little black boy (who looks brown still at the moment) has been nicknamed Chewbacca and is into lots of mischief, he loves exploring. They are now sharing the living room with Chilli's babies and all are getting on great together. They all love to sleep in a big 10 kitten pile on!








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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

I'll have the split nose Tortie please. 

Wonderful pics


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

More beautiful Coonie babies :001_wub:


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_awww i want crumble....and rhubarb.......actually i would want them all....................beautiful._


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

A quick update on Pickle and her kittens. As you can see from the pics the babies are all doing brilliantly and Pickle has been a lovely mum. We are keeping 2 out of the 3 babies (Tortie 'Crumble' and black and white boy). They are now 10 weeks old.

Sadly this will be Pickle's only litter as she has been diagnosed with non genetic HCM which just goes to show unfortunately that being gene negative doesn't mean they are safe from it. I am really gutted as she is only 20 months old but she has 3 beautiful healthy kittens so am happy with that. She will be neutered in the coming weeks and will stay (as all our retired girls do) as our beloved pet


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Bless Pickle, she has done a great job, kittens look beautiful.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_sorry to hear you have to spay her, she has such beautiful kittens,lovely pictures, they are all so cute xx_


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_i just see the pictures of your black boy on the pets4homes site, wow isnt he stunning !!! you need to update them on here, we have afew fans of black cats on here, and he looks beautiful._


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Aren't they growing up gorgeous! I love the B&W's little 'stache--it's so cute! And Crumble's split face is so pretty. Yes, please post piccies of the black boy---I second that motion. Sorry to hear Pickle's mothering days are over so quickly, but now she'll enjoy an early cushy retirement with two of her little ones with her. Love her name, btw.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh, I love the tortie! But it's a hard call because the black guy with the white moustache is gorgeous as well. 

Sorry to hear about her HCM It's never a nice thing to hear. Was she showing symptoms?


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

As requested more pictures of Pickle's babies  They are 12 weeks today!!! Crumble is totally adorable, she purrs at everything but she still has that naughty tortie streak in her. The black and white boy, who we have called Womble is like a big cuddly teddy bear, he sort of ambles around like a bear and has massive paws. He has got a lovely soft coat like Pickle so hopefully will produce us some nice babies in future. The black boy I have got a bit of a soft spot for as I do love black cats so have been disappointed that nobody has been interested in him so far but hopefully he will find a new home soon. He has got a very bat like face and massive ears!








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Hope you like the pictures


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Pictures are gorgeous - I lost my black boy just over three weeks ago and if I thought I could get away with it at home I would have the lovely black one off you like a shot - I will never be able to understand why black cats are not as popular as other colours.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

wicket said:


> Pictures are gorgeous - I lost my black boy just over three weeks ago and if I thought I could get away with it at home I would have the lovely black one off you like a shot - I will never be able to understand why black cats are not as popular as other colours.


Sorry to hear you lost your black boy, it is so hard to lose a faithful companion  i really love black cats too so don't understand why people don't seem to like them. I think they are incredibly striking cats I would have a houseful of black ones if I could


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## Deb1 (Jun 10, 2012)

They are all stunning! Your little black boy is beautiful and I'm sure someone will fall in love with him very soon.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Please don't take this the wrong way but is it wise to breed the boy considering his mother has HCM?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Beautiful kittens, womble is a great name and if i was looking for another pet i would have chosen your black boy, sadly i now have enough cats, well i will hopefully have enough after the weekend.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

pipje said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way but is it wise to breed the boy considering his mother has HCM?


Hi yes it was something we considered but he (like Pickle) are gene tested clear of HCM and have taken a specialists advice before deciding to keep him as we obviously wouldn't want to risk further complications. Unfortunately with HCM there is no guarantee but we have been advised that he is at no greater risk (or his offspring) than any other kitten. With the exception of Pickle no other cat/kitten in this genetic line has developed it but we would never obviously put any of them at risk as they are pet first which is why we have taken the decision to neuter Pickle, which I have been told by the cardiologist who Pickle is under is quite unusually apparently as there are many breeders who continue to breed a HCM positive female (or male) unless they were carriers which I find quite disgraceful


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

chloe1975 said:


> Hi yes it was something we considered but he (like Pickle) are gene tested clear of HCM and have taken a specialists advice before deciding to keep him as we obviously wouldn't want to risk further complications. Unfortunately with HCM there is no guarantee but we have been advised that he is at no greater risk (or his offspring) than any other kitten. With the exception of Pickle no other cat/kitten in this genetic line has developed it but we would never obviously put any of them at risk as they are pet first which is why we have taken the decision to neuter Pickle, which I have been told by the cardiologist who Pickle is under is quite unusually apparently as there are many breeders who continue to breed a HCM positive female (or male) unless they were carriers which I find quite disgraceful


Wow - I am appalled at those 'breeders' then - when I found out that Minnii had it she was spayed immediately - I did inform HER breeder though - who did NOTHING I thought she was unusual, I guess not. The reason I stopped breeding Birmans.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

spid said:


> Wow - I am appalled at those 'breeders' then - when I found out that Minnii had it she was spayed immediately - I did inform HER breeder though - who did NOTHING I thought she was unusual, I guess not. The reason I stopped breeding Birmans.


Unfortunately not. The cardiologist asked us if we wanted to be put in touch with several other Maine Coon breeders in our area who were breeding with HCM positive girls to help us decide if neutering was best for us. I said absolutely not we would never knowingly put her through additional stress (why would anyone?). Luckily she is not symptomatic at all so hopefully she will stay that way for a long time to come x


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

chloe1975 said:


> Unfortunately not. The cardiologist asked us if we wanted to be put in touch with several other Maine Coon breeders in our area who were breeding with HCM positive girls to help us decide if neutering was best for us. I said absolutely not we would never knowingly put her through additional stress (why would anyone?). Luckily she is not symptomatic at all so hopefully she will stay that way for a long time to come x


I informed kitten owners too and offered (not a refund) but another kitten from different stock if their kittens were tested and turned out positive. Only one was and her owner declined all offers as she said I'd bred in good faith etc. Luckily she was fully insured so the owners haven't had any nasty bills and she is now 4 and has no problems other than a very slight murmur. Minnii in the other hand was given 6 weeks, not expected to survive spaying and is still with us now.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

chloe1975 said:


> Hi yes it was something we considered but he (like Pickle) are gene tested clear of HCM and have taken a specialists advice before deciding to keep him as we obviously wouldn't want to risk further complications. Unfortunately with HCM there is no guarantee but we have been advised that he is at no greater risk (or his offspring) than any other kitten. With the exception of Pickle no other cat/kitten in this genetic line has developed it but we would never obviously put any of them at risk as they are pet first which is why we have taken the decision to neuter Pickle, which I have been told by the cardiologist who Pickle is under is quite unusually apparently as there are many breeders who continue to breed a HCM positive female (or male) unless they were carriers which I find quite disgraceful


Beautiful kittens, especially the black boy :001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:

I would urge you to reconsider breeding from him though. We only *know* of one gene mutation but it is believed many more, as yet unidentified mutations exist. Just because this young man has gene tested negative, doesn't mean he won't develop HCM ( just like pickle ) through an as yet unknown , gene mutation.

Surely, the point of screening is to remove all HCM positive cats AND their offspring from the breeding programme ?


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Sorry if i appear a bit thick .... But why on earth would anyone let alone a feline cardiologist , promote the breeding of HCM cats , what would be the outcome of that ? Just asking as i am curious.....


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Cats cats cats said:


> Beautiful kittens, especially the black boy :001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:
> 
> I would urge you to reconsider breeding from him though. We only *know* of one gene mutation but it is believed many more, as yet unidentified mutations exist. Just because this young man has gene tested negative, doesn't mean he won't develop HCM ( just like pickle ) through an as yet unknown , gene mutation.
> 
> Surely, the point of screening is to remove all HCM positive cats AND their offspring from the breeding programme ?


Maybe you are right and I will reconsider my options with him. To be honest I can only act on the advice I have been given which I had hoped from a top consultant in the field would be right but maybe its not and it would be better not to risk it. It is not something we have undertaken lightly and I believe having spoken to GCCF and FIFe as well as the vet that the official guideline state that he would be fine to breed as long as he is not bred until he is over 2 and has a heart scan at that stage to confirm that all is not well (all our cats are scanned yearly anyway as do most Maine Coon breeders). My understanding is that the majority of HCM is actually non genetic and therefore any of the cats could develop it at some point in their lives unfortunately just as they could any other disease. I have been breeding for quite a few years and have been lucky not to have a case previously so I guess I am still learning too. We had wanted to continue this particular line as it is a particular strong line with an excellent pedigree but I realise that there are more important considerations. I do still have Pickle's mum who I hoped would have another litter next year but then maybe she should be neutered too now.

The whole thing has been really difficult and stressful as I have always prided myself on the health of our cats and how they are cared for and it has been something that new owners have always commented on. But that clearly wasn't good enough and I am now in a position to wonder whether to give up breeding altogether  Maybe coming on here and being honest about the situation wasn't the right thing to do


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

chloe1975 said:


> Maybe you are right and I will reconsider my options with him. To be honest I can only act on the advice I have been given which I had hoped from a top consultant in the field would be right but maybe its not and it would be better not to risk it. My understanding is that the majority of HCM is actually non genetic and therefore any of the cats could develop it at some point in their lives unfortunately just as they could any other disease. I have been breeding for quite a few years and have been lucky not to have a case previously so I guess I am still learning too. We had wanted to continue this particular line as it is a particular strong line with an excellent pedigree but I realise that there are more important considerations. I do still have Pickle's mum who I hoped would have another litter next year but then maybe she should be neutered too now.
> 
> The whole thing has been really difficult and stressful as I have always prided myself on the health of our cats and how they are cared for and it has been something that new owners have always commented on. But that clearly wasn't good enough and I am now in a position to wonder whether to give up breeding altogether  Maybe coming on here and being honest about the situation wasn't the right thing to do


I think opinion is divided on this at the moment but my understanding is that there is increasing evidence to suggest that HCM in cats (and humans) is probably entirely genetic.

There are of course no guarantees of being HCM free, even scans only tell you if the cat has HCM *that day.* Ie: a cat could scan negative one year and next year, HCM could have developed.

All breeders can do is scan regularly and only breed from negative cats, removing any that test positive in the future.

The current gene test only tests for the one known mutation and whilst useful, is no substitute for scanning regularly in my opinion. If I was a breeder, I would certainly not breed from a kitten with a HCM positive mother, nor would I breed from his grandmother (Pickles mum ) again. I should add that I don't know anything about breeding 

I think coming on here and being honest is great  and I certainly don't think you should give up breeding all together, you clearly love all your babies 

I hope I haven't upset you, that's not my intention at all


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Personally, I completely understand how stressful this is for you at this time having been there. And I really feel for you.

My understanding on HCM (and it is sketchy now as Minnii was diagnosed 3 years ago and I've forgotten a lot) is that there is genetic HCM and diet induced HCM - obviously diet induced HCM can be cured. The other can't. 

If I were in your position I wouldn't breed from that line again, I'm afraid. I DID give up breeding completely after Minnii and I'd only just bought a new breeding girl at that time, but I was so sickened to the heart at having potentially produced a kitten with the disease that I felt I had no choice. 

How would you feel if your cats DID produce affected kittens? WOuld you be able to cope? Are you really, really, really sure that this HCM isn't genetic in any way shape or form? If you are then carry on, if there is even an inkling of doubt I would end that line and carry on with your others. 

It is an incredibly hard decision to make - and you did the right thing by discussing it - carrying on regardless without any thought to lines and future litter would have been the wrong thing to do. DO some more research. Talk to more experts. THEN make up your mind. 

Thinking of you.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_thank you for putting the pictures on they are all gorgeous, the little black kitten does have some stunning big ears .
I am sorry you feel upset about coming on here and being truthful about Pickle and HCM, i guess people have different views on this subject, i hope you stay on the forum as i have enjoyed seeing your cats and kittens and hearing all about them. I wouldnt give up breeding if i were you, but i would get as much info as possible regarding HCM and see were you go from there._


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't think you're a bad breeder, chloe. I think a good one is open, honest, tries to learn and does the best he/she can for the breed. We can all learn from this (HCM is one of those things so many breeders keep secret that some people think it doesn't exist at all so knowing and being aware of its existance helps the breed, imho).

However, I do think that breeding with an HCM affected animal (mother is a close relative) is risky- not just for kitten buyers but also for a breeder. When HCM testing became normal here, many catteries- some of whom are/were very famous- had to close down/disappear due to HCM positive cases and the backlash which goes with it. Sometimes one gets unlucky and kittens get ill/sick all at once which means the breeder may have to refund all at one go. So ultimately, by stopping the line, you're also limiting the risk to yourself (but is ultimately your decision ). 

For reference sake, I know that many (good) breeders around me would stop the line completely if a cat was found to be HCM positive- that means notifying all breeders who might have a breeding cat from that line and of course, not continuing with the cats you have from this line. Granted, not all breeders who have cats from that line will stop but at least it's on their conscience then, not yours.

P/S: Would also like to add that having a HCM cat does NOT make anyone a bad breeder- it can happen to anyone! It's how one manages it, is what is important (in my opinion).


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

spid said:


> Personally, I completely understand how stressful this is for you at this time having been there. And I really feel for you.
> 
> My understanding on HCM (and it is sketchy now as Minnii was diagnosed 3 years ago and I've forgotten a lot) is that there is genetic HCM and diet induced HCM - obviously diet induced HCM can be cured. The other can't.
> 
> ...


Thanks Spid, I am just really struggling with all this at the moment and i think it is something that many breeders don't talk about still, I know of several breeders who still don't test as they think its better not to know but I have always felt like I was doing the responsible thing. I know people are only giving advice and are giving their opinions and thats fine I just feel like I am under attack and being told I don't have their interests at heart when I have just spent weeks hand rearing the two kittens who had eye ulcers, successfully saving Chilli's tiny 60g baby and as we speak I have Fi's little boy curled up on my lap recovering from having his leg amputated last week because it was the best thing for him. I just feel like this has been the final straw for me at the moment. I am hoping to bring in a new girl shortly and I hopefully have a new boy coming early next year which will bring in some new stock. I know what you mean and I would feel awful if one of the kittens developed anything not just HCM, I felt responsible when one of my previous kittens jumped off a ledge and broke his leg and he had been living in his new home for a year!

Spid- just picked up something else in your reply about HCM possibly being diet related, I have never heard that before so will look into that more. Pickle is an extremely picky eater, she has fresh cooked chicken everyday but other than that will only eat dry food, she has never eaten wet food since she first weaned and will also not eat raw.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

chloe1975 said:


> Thanks Spid, I am just really struggling with all this at the moment and i think it is something that many breeders don't talk about still, I know of several breeders who still don't test as they think its better not to know but I have always felt like I was doing the responsible thing. I know people are only giving advice and are giving their opinions and thats fine I just feel like I am under attack and being told I don't have their interests at heart when I have just spent weeks hand rearing the two kittens who had eye ulcers, successfully saving Chilli's tiny 60g baby and as we speak I have Fi's little boy curled up on my lap recovering from having his leg amputated last week because it was the best thing for him. I just feel like this has been the final straw for me at the moment. I am hoping to bring in a new girl shortly and I hopefully have a new boy coming early next year which will bring in some new stock. I know what you mean and I would feel awful if one of the kittens developed anything not just HCM, I felt responsible when one of my previous kittens jumped off a ledge and broke his leg and he had been living in his new home for a year!
> 
> Spid- just picked up something else in your reply about HCM possibly being diet related, I have never heard that before so will look into that more. Pickle is an extremely picky eater, she has fresh cooked chicken everyday but other than that will only eat dry food, she has never eaten wet food since she first weaned and will also not eat raw.


I'm sorry you feel you're under attack and sincerely hope I have not contributed to that  I don't think youre a bad breeder and I apologise if my posts came across that way 

Regarding diet, diet induced cardiomyopathy (taurine deficiency) relates to *DCM* not HCM i'm afraid. There is no cure for HCM, only management. DCM can indeed be cured IF taurine deficiency is the cause.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

Cats cats cats said:


> Regarding diet, diet induced cardiomyopathy (taurine deficiency) relates to *DCM* not HCM i'm afraid. There is no cure for HCM, only management. DCM can indeed be cured IF taurine deficiency is the cause.


_thats interesting,i didnt know that, something else to read up on.  _


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

colliemerles said:


> _thats interesting,i didnt know that, something else to read up on.  _


I believe it was this discovery that led to manufacturers supplementing commercial diets with taurine. Consequently, DCM (that was induced by taurine deficiency) is pretty rare nowadays because of this


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

chloe1975 said:


> Thanks Spid, I am just really struggling with all this at the moment and i think it is something that many breeders don't talk about still, I know of several breeders who still don't test as they think its better not to know but I have always felt like I was doing the responsible thing. I know people are only giving advice and are giving their opinions and thats fine I just feel like I am under attack and being told I don't have their interests at heart when I have just spent weeks hand rearing the two kittens who had eye ulcers, successfully saving Chilli's tiny 60g baby and as we speak I have Fi's little boy curled up on my lap recovering from having his leg amputated last week because it was the best thing for him. I just feel like this has been the final straw for me at the moment. I am hoping to bring in a new girl shortly and I hopefully have a new boy coming early next year which will bring in some new stock. I know what you mean and I would feel awful if one of the kittens developed anything not just HCM, I felt responsible when one of my previous kittens jumped off a ledge and broke his leg and he had been living in his new home for a year!


I am very sorry you feel under attack but I'm sure you aren't - it's just your emotions are heightened at the moment - if you want to PM me please do. No one thinks you are irresponsible. The very fact you haven't hidden it away is proof positive.



chloe1975 said:


> Spid- just picked up something else in your reply about HCM possibly being diet related, I have never heard that before so will look into that more. Pickle is an extremely picky eater, she has fresh cooked chicken everyday but other than that will only eat dry food, she has never eaten wet food since she first weaned and will also not eat raw.


You could have hit the nail on the head here - a lack of taurine in a diet can cause HCM - it is reversed when enough taurine is in the diet again. If the chicken is more than 20% of her diet you could have the cause there. It isn't complete, and cooking destroys taurine. Cut out the chicken for the while and just feed her a complete dry if that is all she will have. And obviously consult an expert.

See if you hadn't come on here - you might not have found this out! We do have our uses occasionally. EDIT: even if I am wrong. I would check to see if they are positive it isn't DCM.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Cats cats cats said:


> I'm sorry you feel you're under attack and sincerely hope I have not contributed to that  I don't think youre a bad breeder and I apologise if my posts came across that way
> 
> Regarding diet, diet induced cardiomyopathy (taurine deficiency) relates to *DCM* not HCM i'm afraid. There is no cure for HCM, only management. DCM can indeed be cured IF taurine deficiency is the cause.


Ah, see, not what my very expensive French, working in London, consultant told me.

As for no cure for HCM - Minnii was at deaths door 3 years ago - grade 6 (if pushed to give a number) but really off the scale. Would be dead in 6 weeks. Worse case this eminent consultant had ever seen in his prestigious 30 year career. 3 years later - her heart murmur is now a grade 2 and she is full of health. It's not actually possible what she is doing (going backwards in HCM) - I do wonder if they don't really know it all. £2ks worth of scans and consultants fees, which ended my breeding at the time and she IS getting better! The vets are flummoxed.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

spid said:


> Ah, see, not what my very expensive French, working in London, consultant told me.
> 
> As for no cure for HCM - Minnii was at deaths door 3 years ago - grade 6 (if pushed to give a number) but really off the scale. Would be dead in 6 weeks. Worse case this eminent consultant had ever seen in his prestigious 30 year career. 3 years later - her heart murmur is now a grade 2 and she is full of health. It's not actually possible what she is doing (going backwards in HCM) - I do wonder if they don't really know it all. £2ks worth of scans and consultants fees, which ended my breeding at the time and she IS getting better! The vets are flummoxed.


Well that's what I have been told and what all my reading suggests. I can send you some links if you are interested  I'm pretty sure that I have never read a single article that attributes taurine deficiency to HCM, only DCM. I could be wrong though ......it has been known to happen 

I'm delighted that Minnie is doing so well Spid, I really am  please remember though that the grade of the murmur is not really indicative of the HCM status and that a murmur can be worse under stress (at the time of her scan)

I know you don't want to re scan her, which I 100% agree with  I am the same, my vet has suggested Fuzz go for a re scan to "see how his HCM is progressing" . No way, for what purpose , so they can ooh and ahh over the numbers ? 

MAYBE if I feel we need to in order to adjust his medicines , one day, but whilst he's doing well, *no no no* . He gets incredibly frightened at the vets, I dread to think how terrifying his scan was 

PS. i'm not trying to be doom and gloom regarding Minnie, maybe she is the exception to the rules  I certainly hope so


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

It's true that HCM isn't necessarily a death sentence. I have heard of many cats who live well into their teens with HCM. Also, from what I hear, the drugs aren't too expensive (I was told that it was around 14 euro a month) so not too bad if your cat isn't insured.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Cats cats cats said:


> Well that's what I have been told and what all my reading suggests. I can send you some links if you are interested  I'm pretty sure that I have never read a single article that attributes taurine deficiency to HCM, only DCM. I could be wrong though ......it has been known to happen
> 
> I'm delighted that Minnie is doing so well Spid, I really am  please remember though that the grade of the murmur is not really indicative of the HCM status and that a murmur can be worse under stress (at the time of her scan)
> 
> ...


Oh it's fine - I know Minnii is a law unto herself - I expect her to live to 21, almost because she wants to put a cat finger up to the vets that said she had 6 weeks at the very most! She isn't even on meds anymore. And yes, no way am I having a stressful scan just to satisfy the vets interest - it won't help her so what's the point. SHe isn't poorly, if and when she is she will be straight back to the vets. Which she LOVES, she is all purrs and rubs all over the vet, even been known to wash them!

I am probably wrong on the DCM/HCM thing -I do have a crap memory at times. Links would be good - thanks; got to keep learning. Ta muchly.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks Spid and CCC for the info. I have got an appointment at the vets this afternoon as the kittens have got vaccinations so will ask about the diet thing then. At the moment the diagnoses has been on the basis of xrays rather than full scan as she was still nursing the kittens it wasn't worth stressing her further (she hates the vets too  ) so they weren't going to do a full scan until she is spayed but reading up DCM and HCM seem similar anyway so there could have been a bit of presumption? I will ask about her having a blood test to check her taurine levels as that seems quite straightforward and will either rule it in or out?

Thanks again x

PS glad Minnie is doing well Spid, Pickle *only* has a grade 3 and it scared the hell out of me!


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

chloe1975 said:


> Thanks Spid and CCC for the info. I have got an appointment at the vets this afternoon as the kittens have got vaccinations so will ask about the diet thing then. *At the moment the diagnoses has been on the basis of xrays rather than full scan as she was still nursing the kittens it wasn't worth stressing her further *(she hates the vets too  ) so they weren't going to do a full scan until she is spayed but reading up DCM and HCM seem similar anyway so there could have been a bit of presumption? I will ask about her having a blood test to check her taurine levels as that seems quite straightforward and will either rule it in or out?
> 
> Thanks again x
> 
> PS glad Minnie is doing well Spid, Pickle *only* has a grade 3 and it scared the hell out of me!


Ahhhh now this changes everything ..... a definitive diagnosis cannot be done by Xray alone. HCM is a thickening of the *internal* walls of the heart (thus narrowing the hearts chambers ) and cannot be seen via xray.

An overall enlargement could be seen I guess but i'm not sure how a diagnosis of HCM was made based on that 

so maybe, your cardiologist has terrified you for nothing ? ! 

This would explain why he/she said it would be ok to breed from Pickles kittens as a cat can have a murmur and not have HCM (and vice versa of course)


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

spid said:


> Oh it's fine - I know Minnii is a law unto herself -* I expect her to live to 21, almost because she wants to put a cat finger up to the vets that said she had 6 weeks at the very most!* She isn't even on meds anymore. And yes, no way am I having a stressful scan just to satisfy the vets interest - it won't help her so what's the point. SHe isn't poorly, if and when she is she will be straight back to the vets. Which she LOVES, she is all purrs and rubs all over the vet, even been known to wash them!
> 
> I am probably wrong on the DCM/HCM thing -I do have a crap memory at times. Links would be good - thanks; got to keep learning. Ta muchly.


   good for her   Minnie sounds a real :devil: character


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Cats cats cats said:


> Ahhhh now this changes everything ..... a definitive diagnosis cannot be done by Xray alone. HCM is a thickening of the *internal* walls of the heart (thus narrowing the hearts chambers ) and cannot be seen via xray.
> 
> An overall enlargement could be seen I guess but i'm not sure how a diagnosis of HCM was made based on that
> 
> ...


I agree - she needs a scan *before* you decide to spay her. It might not be HCM at all. Then I would be very cross for all the stress you have been caused! 


Cats cats cats said:


> good for her   Minnie sounds a real :devil: character


Oh she is. A right prima donna!


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Chloe has already had Pickle spayed after what the vet said, so if the vet was wrong, sadly this is now the end for this girls line, the only hope is to keep the kittens from this litter to continue what has already been done.

Chloe, i think you need to have a chat and tests with the vet to ensure you know exactly what is going on before you make any decisions.

Sending you hugs at this hard time and you know where i am if you need to talk. xxx


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

catcoonz said:


> Chloe has already had Pickle spayed after what the vet said, so if the vet was wrong, sadly this is now the end for this girls line, the only hope is to keep the kittens from this litter to continue what has already been done.
> 
> Chloe, i think you need to have a chat and tests with the vet to ensure you know exactly what is going on before you make any decisions.
> 
> Sending you hugs at this hard time and you know where i am if you need to talk. xxx


 really ? I thought she hadn't had her spayed yet  oh no, how awful if this is a case of misdiagnosis


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I am sure Pickle has been spayed, its the offspring Chloe is wanting to keep.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> I am sure Pickle has been spayed, its the offspring Chloe is wanting to keep.


Hi all just to clarify yes Pickle has already been spayed based on what we were told by the vet as I would not want to put Pickle through more stress and pressure on her heart even if it turned out not to be HCM she still has a heart murmur  The rest of the thread has been about whether or not we should continue to breed in this line or even whether her mum should be neutered. Unfortunately this is an excellent line which is now no longer in this country and so for the sake of the breed it would be a real loss to let it die out and these are now the last in the line which is one reason I am keen if at all possible to carry it on. However I will now take some more time and some more advice before deciding what to do. In the meantime kittens had their second vaccs and health checks today and all are fine. Womble and the black boy are almost 2kg and Crumble is 1.5kg


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I would get Pickle scanned and get a positive diagnosis. That's the way to know exactly what you are dealing with. Once you know that then you can make a decision about what to do with the kittens. There is a huge difference between a heart murmur and HCM.


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