# Leadership and the dog whisperer



## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

*Hello all,

I had been posting on topics with advice and even mentioning the dog whisperer which caused some trouble. I just hadn't realised that people here on the dog training forums hates Cesar Millan so much. I didn't mean to cause any fights or ruffle anybody's feathers.

I just want to know, who here dislikes and disagrees with Cesar's methods, and why?
I have observed that a lot of you don't believe in being your dog's "pack" leader. I've also realised it's only British people who think this way because the Americans took Cesar's advice and said it has worked for them.

Also I have tried SOME not all of Cesar's techniques on my dog; being assertive and showing him who is leader and I've got to say that he is better behaved than he used to be. He used to run riots in the house and outside, but now he's more obedient and relaxed and I DO NOT kick him, hit him or use force. I just give discipline where needed and affection and praise where needed, and I think that is fair enough to keep balance. It what you'd do with a child.
It seems everyone on here, probably only british people, only wish to ever show affection and praise and molly coddle their dogs.
I of course don't agree with everything Cesar does or says BUT I do believe that dogs do test you and push you, like children, to see how far they can go, to see what they can get away with and people need to let them know what is acceptable and what is not... But I'm sure most of you will disagree with that... lol. Yeah, good luck with getting your dogs to respect you and be obedient then if all people wanna do is cuddle them even when they are naughty.

Sorry if this offends anyone but I have to speak my mind!*


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I used to be a massive fan of CM. Watched his shows religiously 

Then I started using this forum and couldn't understand the objections to him. I was given info on how to recognise stress in dogs - the signs and signals they use when anxious and trying to calm themselves.

I was also advised to watch CM but with the sound turned right down - and wow, did I see things differently. Most of the dogs were stressed out of their poor minds 

The final straw for me was watching the way CM tormented the poor yellow Lab that was resource guarding when it came to food. By the time CM was through with him, that poor dog didn't know what to do and what not to do and unsurprisingly, ended up biting CM.

He aggravated a problem to the point where the dog and its owners were then permanently separated.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2013)

Rather than start yet another CM debate, why dont you just do a forum search on the topic? See the green bar above this thread? There is a search drop-down link, click it, type in Cesar Millan or Dog Whisperer, and you should get a ton of hits. This conversation has ben had and had and had. 

FWIW, I dont *hate* Cesar Millan. I dont know the guy. I find his methods ineffective at best, hurtful to the dogs and destructive to the dog/owner relationship. 
Oh yeah, and Im an American. As are my very large network of fellow dog enthusiasts who also find the Dog Whisperers methods hugely flawed.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Not really sure if it's worth replying because I can't really work you out, but, here goes..........

Most people on here manage to train their dogs without resorting to fear-based training, poking our dogs, using prong collars, domination techniques, blah blah.

As with children, ignoring the unwanted behaviour and rewarding the good behaviour gives results; well mannered, well behaved children and dogs, generally.

Children have the benefit of language so understand more readily what is expected of them. Dogs do not, so it can take a little longer to get the message across. However, time, patience, kindness and reward usually work in the long run.

IMO if a dog is displaying behaviour borne out of fear the last thing one should do is increase that fear, which may then push the dog to the next stage which may well be full-blown aggression. Or overwhelm the dog so that it feels powerless and just shuts down and submits.

Far better to enable the dog to be able to relax in that situation and learn that there is nothing to fear.

If a child is having a tantrum, is it better to react calmly in order to lower the child's anxiety; thereby teaching them how to regain control of emotions - or give it a slap? Hmm - answers on a postcard please


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> I of course don't agree with everything Cesar does or says BUT I do believe that dogs do test you and push you, like children, to see how far they can go, to see what they can get away with and people need to let them know what is acceptable and what is not... But I'm sure most of you will disagree with that... lol. Yeah, good luck with getting your dogs to respect you and be obedient then if all people wanna do is cuddle them even when they are naughty.
> 
> Sorry if this offends anyone but I have to speak my mind!


Hi, wanted to respond to this part separately.

I think this is a fundamental difference in how you view the dog in front of you. 
Do you see undesirable behavior as the dog testing you, vying for position in some imaginary hierarchy, or do you see the dog innocently responding in a way that has worked for him/her before, happy to respond differently if only taught how? 
Do you see failed cues as disobedience, deliberate defiance, or do you see a dog who is confused and unsure?

Obviously only the dogs know for sure, but I do know that despite the fact that dont treat behaviors as defiance and waywardness that needs to be corrected, I still have cooperative, well-trained dogs who are easy to take anywhere and can do far more than a lot of other dogs out there.

I certainly dont need your offer for luck, my dogs behavior and my relationship with them speak for themselves, but thanks anyway


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> *Hello all,
> 
> I had been posting on topics with advice and even mentioning the dog whisperer which caused some trouble. I just hadn't realised that people here on the dog training forums hates Cesar Millan so much. I didn't mean to cause any fights or ruffle anybody's feathers.
> 
> ...


It's simple really. Cesars methods involve using force (sometimes disguised as a "touch") and trying to dominate the dog. A dog is not a wolf, and acting in the same way that pack members would towards another wolf does not work on dogs (if what Cesar is doing can even be described in that way). He is also not qualified to give training advice, he is just a person on TV, more accurate research has been done into dog behaviour and has come up with more effective ways of training a dog. Cesar gets bitten often which obviously shows that he is making a mistake. He pushes dogs beyond reasonable limits and when you watch his work you can see how scared the dogs are, and it is not surprising that they lash out.

I do not have to be my dogs "pack leader" in the way that he means it, because I am not a wolf and neither is my dog. Do I make the decisions for my dog? I do indeed, but I don't have to shout at him to do it.

I can assure you that it is not only British people who disagree with his methods, people from other countries do too, it is the people with compassion, experience and appropriate training that object to what he does.

Are his methods all bad? well to me mostly yes, but I do agree with the behaving calm and confident around the dogs (as do most trainers who disagree with this man)

So you do not kick or hit your dog? What methods of "discipline" do you use then?

If you look on here you will see that most dogs are well behaved and trained and do show their owners respect, all of these dogs were trained with positive methods. The respect works both ways. We do not cuddle them when they misbehave, bad behaviour is ignored, good behaviour is reinforced, giving the dog motivation to make the right choice in a situation.

This post has not offended me, but you will find that it is something people feel strongly about. We have had success from much gentler methods.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

I don't think you will find any mainstream dog forums ANYWHERE in the world who will agree with his methods.

And there is a good reason for that.

Instead of asking "Why?" on here, I suggest you do some research. There will - hopefully - come a time when the penny drops - but until that happens, expect a great deal of "negative energy" almost everywhere you go.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> Instead of asking "Why?" on here, I suggest you do some research.


Absolutely agree. OP - Instead of just thinking about CM's methods and belief system about dogs, you could research and educate yourself using the wealth of modern, research based information about dogs and training methods. Did you read Dominance in Dogs by Barry Eaton like I suggested in your last thread about CM? And that book is just for starters. There are many others you could read too. Personally I prefer to properly explore both sides of the fence before I decide which one I'm jumping into.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> *Yeah, good luck with getting your dogs to respect you and be obedient then if all people wanna do is cuddle them even when they are naughty.
> 
> Sorry if this offends anyone but I have to speak my mind!*


Nope - not offended by this. Made me laugh actually! With all due respect, this one sentence shows how little you understand about modern positive reinforcement training methods or the way in which others of us choose to live in and around our dogs. I'm very far from an expert on all this - I'm just a keen dog owner who actively trains her dogs, educates herself and learns from others around her who have far greater skills, knowledge and experience than herself.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> I've also realised it's only British people who think this way because the Americans took Cesar's advice and said it has worked for them.
> 
> It seems everyone on here, probably only british people, only wish to ever show affection and praise and molly coddle their dogs.


I'm not getting into the CM debate, but do you realise what a HUGE generalisation this is???

I can assure you that plenty of British people love CM, and plenty of Americans despise him. And I'm a kiwi, so where does that leave me??? :lol:

Minor detail, but gross generalisations, particularly to do with ethnicity/culture/country really, really bug me!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

In order to develop as person and as a dog owner and trainer would it not be a good idea to read a little more than one man's view on the human = dog relationship?

There is certainly a lot of literature out there and, if you cannot afford it, then there is also a lot of freely available material on the net.

This will give you some other points of view to consider.

CM is not all bad, some of the things he says are absolutely correct and make a lot of sense, others are are less so.

Just as when you go shopping you have to weed out the spoiled fruit from the good, so you have to pick your way through the views of various professionals in the field.

But to do that of course you have to widen your knowledge base and expose yourself to other ideas.

Here are a few on this subject

Why Won&#039;t Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
Canine Dominance Revisited | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
http://www.clickersolutions.com/article ... inance.htm
Debunking Dominance Theory | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 112711.htm
The Social Organizatin of the Domestic Dog
The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
2011 | Roger Abrantes ... -nonsense/
http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-arti ... nce-debate
http://www.suzanneclothier.com/blog/con ... nce-debate


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

The place I took Bracken to to get some info on training Sue ( the trainer ) has 14 dogs of her own all trained to do different things. The method use was reward base no other thing was needed. But of course lots of patience and trust from the dog.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*I of course don't agree with everything Cesar does or says BUT I do believe that dogs do test you and push you, like children, to see how far they can go, to see what they can get away with and people need to let them know what is acceptable and what is not... But I'm sure most of you will disagree with that... lol. Yeah, good luck with getting your dogs to respect you and be obedient then if all people wanna do is cuddle them even when they are naughty.

Sorry if this offends anyone but I have to speak my mind!*

You haven't offended me and I agree with you that dogs need to learn the house rules and acceptable behaviour. It's how we achieve an obedient and well mannered companion that is questionable though.

Would you say that a dog winning the obedience championships at Crufts (only dog that year in qualifying marks), being invited by the Kennel Club to perform a HTM demonstration at Crufts and Discover Dogs, being invited by ITV to perform on TV, being invited all over the UK and overseas to instruct and demonstrate with my dogs is well-mannered and obedient enough for you?

If that's the case I would like to add that I have never smacked, shouted at or harsh handled any of my dogs. I hate to see fear in dogs eyes and it really isn't necessary to employ any methods that do so IMHO.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2013)

I think you should watch this to see the alternative effects of positive reward based training.

How to be Completely Dominant Over Your Dog- dog training - YouTube

How to stop unwanted behavior- the positive interrupter- dog training clicker training - YouTube

This is another good video by Kikopup I forgot about- 
What not to do to your best friend and why, dog training - YouTube

This is the kind of training I keep up with and follows my ideals in the relationship I would like with my dog and how I view her. I used to be cesar fan but now I dislike him since finding some of his more extreme videos.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I don't cuddle my dog when he's "naughty" but then he's rarely what I'd call naughty anyway. Instead of me focusing on what I don't want him to do in situations I focus on what I DO want him to do and teach him that instead. You seem to be under the very common misconception that those of us who do not believe in CMs methods simply stand around handing out cuddles and cookies no matter what. This could not be further from the truth. Our dogs have rules and boundaries too, they're just taught them without the use of fear or pain.

I have read CMs books, watched many of his shows and there are a few things I agree with him about. Others I couldn't disagree more on. Yes, I'm British. But where I live now CM is practically god


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

You have asked this question before and had pretty much the same responses so I won't repeat.

Just do a google search, everything you need will be there. If you still don't see why most dog lovers call him a bully then nothing anyone says here will change your mind.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

The only thing I know of C.M. is from what I've read on this forum, frankly from the little I've gleaned I wouldn't allow him within a hundred yards of my dogs. My training is based on patience, consistency and a modicum of canine knowledge, picked up over many years of training and working gun dogs.
Rightly or wrongly, unlike your good self, I do not regard myself as 'The leader of the pack' Rather more as a member of a team, and one that works well together.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2013)

springerpete said:


> The only thing I know of C.M. is from what I've read on this forum, frankly from the little I've gleaned I wouldn't allow him within a hundred yards of my dogs. My training is based on patience, consistency and a modicum of canine knowledge, picked up over many years of training and working gun dogs.
> Rightly or wrongly, unlike your good self, I do not regard myself as 'The leader of the pack' *Rather more as a member of a team*, and one that works well together.


Yep. My dogs and I are teammates, partners, sometimes Im team captain and I call the shots, sometimes they do.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Personally, I believe that different methods work with different individuals much like humans. 

I agree the way CM believes exercise (or lack of) is the route of many problems people have with their dogs. 

I use a mix of methods - I like to reward my dogs, but I also think they need to know when they've done something that I don't agree with. 

I also think like humans, there are some more 'dominant', pushy etc and others 'followers', naturally obedient etc.

I think humans and their dogs should work together to achieve the required goal.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Sometimes a small bit of independence is no bad thing in a working dog, they often know what's required better than you.
I was picking up on a shoot many years ago, standing behind a gun and his wife with my old Springer Bracken. Bracken was an experienced campaigner with many seasons under his belt. The drive finished and birds were being picked, the wife called me and said, ''Will your dog pick a teal.????'' I was puzzled by this, my old boy would pick anything that had feathers on it. '' We have a bird down in that cover, about fifty yards in'' said madam, gesturing in the direction she thought the bird was lying.
pointing to where she'd indicated I gave the old lad the command, ''Hi lost' and sent him out. Instead of going where he was sent he began to veer off course, Madam tutted, ''It's not there,'' I called Bracken back in and redirected him, again he veered off. At this point Madam made some disparaging remark about the quality of todays gun dogs. The third time I put him out I gave him his head, ignored his apparent disobedience and let him go. About forty yards to the left of where madam had indicated I could see the signs that the old chap had found their teal, tail going at warp speed, as he returned the bird to me, I couldn't resist commenting to the lady that my dog had proved something today, and that was that his nose was superior to her eyesight.
Sometimes it can be a good idea to put your trust in your dogs instincts, often they're far better than that of those around you.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

springerpete said:


> Sometimes it can be a good idea to put your trust in your dogs instincts, often they're far better than that of those around you.


Doing scentwork and tracking, you HAVE to trust your dog, as you have no idea yourself where the hidden articles are, or how the track has been laid. That was almost "Lesson No. 1" when we started recently.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> Doing scentwork and tracking, you HAVE to trust your dog, as you have no idea yourself where the hidden articles are, or how the track has been laid. That was almost "Lesson No. 1" when we started recently.


Very much the same rules apply on a shoot such as the one I work my dogs on, the cover is so thick and usually the guns sense of direction is not as good as it might be, that often you have no idea where the birds lie. Thank God for the sense of smell they're gifted with.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Rather than start yet another CM debate, why dont you just do a forum search on the topic? See the green bar above this thread? There is a search drop-down link, click it, type in Cesar Millan or Dog Whisperer, and you should get a ton of hits. This conversation has ben had and had and had.
> 
> FWIW, I dont *hate* Cesar Millan. I dont know the guy. I find his methods ineffective at best, hurtful to the dogs and destructive to the dog/owner relationship.
> Oh yeah, and Im an American. As are my very large network of fellow dog enthusiasts who also find the Dog Whisperers methods hugely flawed.


There are many Americans on this forum who know perfectly well that the so called Dog Whisperer knows sweet sod all about dogs and would never dream of treating their dogs so barbarically. If as OP says it is only English people who hate the creature, he/she obviously has not seen all the American dogs that he has ruined with his ignorant bully boy ideas.

He has no clue about dog body language, thinks that a dog licking his lips is not giving out calming signals but is wanting to eat the chicken. He is an idiot and if I had my way he would be neutered so as not to populate the world with flawed progeny.

A lot of people say that they don't hate him because they don't know him. Well, I am not afraid to say I do hate him. I may not know him, but anyone who treats dogs as he does in order to make money, is someone I hate.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

staffgirl said:


> Nope - not offended by this. Made me laugh actually! With all due respect, this one sentence shows how little you understand about modern positive reinforcement training methods or the way in which others of us choose to live in and around our dogs. I'm very far from an expert on all this - I'm just a keen dog owner who actively trains her dogs, educates herself and learns from others around her who have far greater skills, knowledge and experience than herself.


I agree entirely. This is a really daft view of positive training. I would also like to point out to OP - if only British people dislike the Dog Abuser, why has he been banned in Italy?

I have two giant breed dogs, both of whom are heavier and stronger than me. I can call out "wait" when they are heading where I don't want them to and they do, and yet no one is their pack leader and no one has ever tried to use force on them. Not that you could, they are just too damned big, but you get the picture.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I agree entirely. This is a really daft view of positive training. I would also like to point out to OP - if only British people dislike the Dog Abuser, why has he been banned in Italy?
> 
> I have two giant breed dogs, both of whom are heavier and stronger than me. I can call out "wait" when they are heading where I don't want them to and they do, and yet no one is their pack leader and no one has ever tried to use force on them. Not that you could, they are just too damned big, but you get the picture.


Sorry, but the idea of you trying to use force on those two to get your own way has just made me smile. All they'd need to do to scupper you would be to sit on you..


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

springerpete said:


> Sorry, but the idea of you trying to use force on those two to get your own way has just made me smile. All they'd need to do to scupper you would be to sit on you..


Ferdie sits his 12 stone down and refuses to move. Give him a gentle tug on his lead and he lies on his back and says: Now what you gonna do? The fact is if they don't think it is their own idea, they ain't gonna do it! So there!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> *Hello all,
> Yeah, good luck with getting your dogs to respect you and be obedient then if all people wanna do is cuddle them even when they are naughty.
> 
> Sorry if this offends anyone but I have to speak my mind!*


Oh now this amuses me. You haven't even been on the earth as long as some members have worked and trained dogs. How have we all coped with our dogs for all these years without this insightful gem of knowledge! Now I know all will be well in my relationship with my dogs, wondered why my Army dog handling colleagues kept looking at me odd, you mean to tell me cuddling my working dog partner when they wouldn't stop biting the baddy was the wrong thing to do well I never........


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Ferdie sits his 12 stone down and refuses to move. Give him a gentle tug on his lead and he lies on his back and says: Now what you gonna do? The fact is if they don't think it is their own idea, they ain't gonna do it! So there!


Not a lot you can do about that really, I'm glad my Flyte is less than half that weight, the thought of him at twelve stone charging through the woods is too awful to contemplate.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Respect is something you have to earn, you wont get it by bullying, all that gets you is a dog that will do things, not because it wants to please, but because it's fearful not to. Not for me I'm afraid, I ask too much of my dogs for that to be the the way to go.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

springerpete said:


> Respect is something you have to earn, you wont get it by bullying, all that gets you is a dog that will do things, not because it wants to please, but because it's fearful not to. Not for me I'm afraid, I ask too much of my dogs for that to be the the way to go.


Completely agree. My tracking trainer worked for West Midlands Police for many years (now retired) training all breeds of police dogs to track, and detect everything from guns, money, drugs to corpses. And yes he does cuddle his dogs! He is a great trainer and he gets there by being firm and kind - using treats, praise, reward and encouragement, and yes - love. No need for shouting, jerking, shock collars or ANY of Cesar Millan's tactics. And he despises the man.


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

You guys are so right! I may have been a bit ignorant before, but you're right, I should do more research before completely following any one trainer/behaviorist's methods, and I'm going to do that from now on!

I have actually found that certain things work on my dog and certain things don't so I just change and alternate with methods accordingly.

I agree with Cesar that you have to treat the dogs as dogs and not humans and be their leader... maybe not pack leader, but still the master.
I usually say "bad boy" and "no" when he does something wrong. I don't use any physical contact or yell at him. I say those 2 in an assertive voice.

I can't say I'm perfect and that I always act calmly around the dog as stress or frustration can consume me sometimes, and when it does, I usually avoid the dog until I calm down so I don't lash out because I'd hate to do that to him.
He truly is a sweet dog and I don't actually believe that HE does anything deliberately to annoy me. Sometimes when I get annoyed with him I'll say that though, just because I'm angry but I don't believe it! 
His only flaw is that he is not tolerant of other animals, especially smaller ones than himself so the first signs of this, we kinda made sure that he avoided them. If he saw one, he'd go after it and try to kill it, so now when he's outside, I am loath to take him off the lead in-case he spots something.

Him and the cat live in separate parts of the house and have done for many years! I've thought all this time that that was normal and natural that cats and dogs just don't get along, but now learned that infact man pet owners have the dog and cat live together in harmony. It's probably too late now to correct it, the 2 animals are too old now


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> I usually say "bad boy" and "no" when he does something wrong.


"No" is just a noise to a dog. 
Instead of saying "No", why not show the dog what you DO want, and reward when he does it right? Then he will choose to do that, in future.

By the way - this is DEFINITELY worth watching. It shows how inhumane CM really is. He publicly acknowledges he causes pain to animals and shows no remorse.

Alan Titchmarsh you Hero ! - YouTube


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

dandogman said:


> Personally, I believe that different methods work with different individuals much like humans.
> 
> I agree the way CM believes exercise (or lack of) is the route of many problems people have with their dogs.
> 
> ...


Yes, my thoughts exactly!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> You guys are so right! I may have been a bit ignorant before, but you're right, I should do more research before completely following any one trainer/behaviorist's methods, and I'm going to do that from now on!
> 
> I have actually found that certain things work on my dog and certain things don't so I just change and alternate with methods accordingly.
> 
> ...


Yes, but it is not him you are agreeing with; it is all the qualified trainers who figured that out centuries ago. The only things that he spouts that are right are what everybody already knows, like dogs need walking if only for brain stimulation.

Why is he intolerant of other animals? Could it be that you have used some of the dog Abuser's clever methods of shocking him when he has reacted, so that the dog thinks it is the other animal that has caused it?


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> Why is he intolerant of other animals? Could it be that you have used some of the dog Abuser's clever methods of shocking him when he has reacted, so that the dog thinks it is the other animal that has caused it?


Hey it wasn't my fault. He started this bad habit many years ago before I knew anything about dog training or behavior or Cesar Millan.

I don't know what triggered his behavior towards other animals. We never made a big deal when another animal was present. 
It was only when he started attacking an animal that me or my mum would go crazy trying to stop him, it might have been the wrong thing but what would you do if your dog got an animal between it's teeth and you wanted to rescue it?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Hey it wasn't my fault. He started this bad habit many years ago before I knew anything about dog training or behavior or Cesar Millan.
> 
> I don't know what triggered his behavior towards other animals. We never made a big deal when another animal was present.
> It was only when he started attacking an animal that me or my mum would go crazy trying to stop him, it might have been the wrong thing *but what would you do if your dog got an animal between it's teeth and you wanted to rescue it?*


Ummm... I wouldn't have put my dog in that situation in the first place


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> It was only when he started attacking an animal that me or my mum would go crazy trying to stop him, it might have been the wrong thing but what would you do if your dog got an animal between it's teeth and you wanted to rescue it?


The kind, empathic trainer *would not have let the dog get into that situation in the first place* as has already been said.

The Cesar Millan style trainer *would have allowed the dog not only to get into that situation, but punished it harshly when it reacted as expected*. That's what is called "flooding" and CM does that a great deal... justifying his use of shock collars and aggressive handling, because of the dog's reaction.... when in fact none of that was necessary at all.

He MAKES those dogs go "Red Zone" - when a better attuned trainer would NEVER allow them to go that overboard, as they understand how stress works in dogs, and a stressed dog will react and won't listen.

It looks damn good on camera though - to see CM the "Lion Tamer" get in there with his arsenal and conquer the savage beast. The sad truth is...... proper, humane dog training just doesn't make good TV.

What have you not taken on board from earlier posts, when it's been explained how you set up a dog to *succeed* and show it the right thing to do, so it then chooses how to behave in future?

[And that is not even taking into account the trauma sustained by the animal _being_ attacked.]


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Hey it wasn't my fault. He started this bad habit many years ago before I knew anything about dog training or behavior or Cesar Millan.
> 
> I don't know what triggered his behavior towards other animals. We never made a big deal when another animal was present.
> It was only when he started attacking an animal that me or my mum would go crazy trying to stop him, it might have been the wrong thing but *what would you do if your dog got an animal between it's teeth and you wanted to rescue it?*


I would say drop. No really. My dogs have a solid drop cue that works even with live prey or really awesome food. Theyve been taught the cue under increasing difficulty, theyve been given the tools and opportunities to practice impulse control that allow them to be successful with increased difficulty, theyve been rewarded and encouraged for being successful, and thus they find compliance a happy and worth-while endeavor.

Not that it would matter. If prey got to the point on being between my dogs teeth said prey would be dead. Fortunately I also have other cues I can use to prevent the prey getting between the teeth to begin with, starting with a recall, or stay cue, maybe a leave it cue, or maybe even, just not giving the cue to say its okay to go chase prey.

See thats the thing about training thats based on teaching a dog cues - what to do as opposed to a string of donts. Dont eyeball this, dont chase that, dont pull, dont jump, dont bark, dont ask for attention, dont approach other dogs, dont growl (oh isnt that a good one ) dont dont dont dont dont.... 
Is it any wonder dont trained dogs so often have that hopeless look about them? Not showing interest in anything, not wanting to interact with anything? Dead dog behaviors indeed....

Teaching a dog WHAT to do is so much more effective. 
Telling a dog not to jump still leaves him multiple other options, many of which may be just as undesirable as the jumping. 
Giving him ONE behavior, making the parameters of that behavior crystal clear and easy for the dog to understand, motivating the dog to comply with the cue for that behavior... Now that, that is effective training IMHO.

BTW, I dont know that I would call predation a bad habit - if that is what your dog is doing, he could just be scared of other animals and trying to make them go away, IDK. But if it is predation, well, your dog is, like all dogs, a predator, and as a predator he will express parts or the whole of the predatory chain including the kill. Being shocked by predation in a dog is very strange to me.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> ... I'm British. But where I live now, CM is practically god.


Remember that Germany also gave us Konrad Most - another hard-handed, ruthless trainer
who believed dogs should never make mistakes, & handlers must never overlook any opportunity
to punish any error scrupulously. 
.
.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Hey it wasn't my fault. He started this bad habit many years ago before I knew anything about dog training or behavior or Cesar Millan.
> 
> I don't know what triggered his behavior towards other animals. We never made a big deal when another animal was present.
> It was only when he started attacking an animal that me or my mum would go crazy trying to stop him, it might have been the wrong thing but what would you do if your dog got an animal between it's teeth and you wanted to rescue it?


I have never had a dog that would do that in thirty years of owning many different breeds, so as others have said I suppose I have kept them out of that situation.


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## Debbierobb109 (Mar 23, 2013)

why would you train/treat your dog in an adverse manner when you dont have too??
i used to watch his show and think he was really good....he always seems to "fix" the dog...i was even stupid enough to try some of his methods.....im still paying for those with my collie now!!!! but she is a lot more trusting of me now. 
like me, when you actually take a step back and start to learn about dog body language and see all the postitive trainers out there you realise just how out dated, cruel and negative cesars ways actually are......if you watch his programme on silent and stuff the dog you will actually notice that they are highly stressed, showing a multitude of calming signals and some are even shut down ....the whole calm submisive bull is actually a dog that has exhausted all avenues with dog body language and its natural dog defence and is now shut down....so it will comply, just the same as if you scare your dog into doing what you want (pack leader) then of course it will do it....if someone shouted at you you would move pretty quick too haha
he trains dogs the way his granda trained them....so theres the out dated but haha
its been proven that dogs are NOT pack animals, so why would you treat them as such??
he blames every thing on dominance.....the dog wants up on the sofa to be the same level as you and assert its role as pack leader.....actually no, the dogs goes on the sofa because its comfy, you have allowed it and he is up high as thats the way the sofa has been made....eating before your dog shows them who is boss....nope, it only makes the dog wait longer for its food...it doesnt show the dog anything 
the producers of his show make it very dramatic those who do not understand dog behaviour etc will think its just fab.....i used too, i cant watch it now at all it makes me sick to watch it in fact i feel so so sorry for the poor dogs.
in fact the programme has stopped now which says a lot.
i find this website great
Dogs In Danger - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN

and this one Leader of the Pack

you should give them a read and see what you think

just remember there are much kinder ways to treat your dog, a quick fix is all well and good, but the lasting damage can be tragic. back when we got our collie (5 years ago) she was aggressive to other dogs, i decided that i knew best and followed cesars ways and alpha rolled her a few times if she was fighting with our other dog, id do the pokey thing an dthe noise etc.....needless to say her trust for me vanished! i wondered what i was doing wrong and why she wasnt getting better and was in fact getting more aggressive.....i didnt have to search for long to realise!! i felt so so so guilty and horrible and i set to work on tryin to repair our bond, it took a long long time before she trusted me !! i used counter conditioning and lots of treats to get her over her fear and reactions with other dogs....its still not perfect and its more a management thing but id much rather it took this long and we had a good trusting bond than me scare her into doing what i want.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Debbierobb109 said:


> just remember there are much kinder ways to treat your dog, a quick fix is all well and good, but the lasting damage can be tragic.


That right there should be everything someone needs to wake them up to CM's methods, the fact we now have a better understanding so we now know that there are much kinder ways to train dogs.

Ok, these kinder ways may take longer with some dogs, in fact some people may be forgiven in believing that these kinder ways don't work for their dog because they haven't quite worked out what motivates the dog...but the fact is there IS much, much kinder ways to train a dog than prodding, poking, kicking (sorry touching ), "alpha" rolling (if it wasn't for the fact I would be worried about the mental damage it could do my dog I would pay to see him try to "alpha" roll my lump of a mutt, but I think more of my dog than to allow that bully anywhere near anything living....), oh and lets not forget the strangling..

If the human feels the need to raise their hand to their dog whilst training then it is the HUMAN that has failed and it is the HUMAN that has gone into the "red zone".....nothing can be achieved with a frustrated human or a confused dog :nonod:

I think the best thing to do with any CM follower is to advise them to take a step back and watch his programs with all the sound turned off and a book about dog body language sat in front of you...if you still think his methods are the way to go, then there isn't much anyone can say really...

As someone else mentioned I want my dog to do what he is asked because he wants to, not because he fears what may happen if he doesn't preform...


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Id rather my dogs did what I asked because they wanted to please me and because they knew they would get a reward for doing it , not because they were afraid of getting kicked in the side or forced to the ground or half choked to comply

My dogs trust me , id like to keep it that way



LeaderOfThePack said:


> *I do believe that dogs do test you and push you, like children, to see how far they can go, to see what they can get away with and people need to let them know what is acceptable and what is not... But I'm sure most of you will disagree with that... lol. Yeah, good luck with getting your dogs to respect you and be obedient then if all people wanna do is cuddle them even when they are naughty.
> 
> Sorry if this offends anyone but I have to speak my mind!*


All three of mine have had nothing but cuddles since the day they arrived here , they are all very obedient and ive never had to resort to so much as raising my voice to them , not even when Teddy tried pushing his luck after settling in here

Kindness and rewards will always work better in the long run


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Just the thought of being aggressive to my dogs sends shudders down my spine. There really is no need for it. Training dogs takes time, patience and effort, it really is that simple. (Oh, and treats, mustn't forget those treats! )

There is so much to learn about dogs and reading them correctly, it's a fantastic feeling when you see and understand what your dog is feeling/doing and know how to react accordingly.

In my 40+ years of dog training and ownership, I have never used any type of force on any of my dogs, if I want respect from my dogs then I have to earn it and not scare them, there's a world of difference between the two, believe me.


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## GDT (Dec 7, 2013)

Dogs aren't wolves, they don't think we're dogs or wolves. They know we're human. We don't sniff our dogs' butts to greet them when we come home. So let's stop all the other ridiculous nonsense too.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2013)

> dandogman said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I believe that different methods work with different individuals much like humans.
> ...


Ive said it before, Ill say it again. What works is a poor measure of a training method. Eating iceberg lettuce and drinking diet coke works to lose weight. Doesnt make it advisable. Stealing works to gain cash, doesnt make it right.
Dominating a dog, exercising them to exhaustion, kicking, poking, intimidating etc. absolutely work to make a dog stop doing undesirable behaviors. Doesnt make it right, doesnt make it humane, doesnt make it the most effective way to have a relationship with your dog.

Exercise is not the panacea its purported to be either. Often what you end up with is a fitter dog who requires more exercise to get worn out. Or what of the many dogs with issues who for some reason or another cannot be exercised - recovering from surgery, heart worm positive, injured and/or ill? What do you do with these dogs? Sometimes you have to have skills that go beyond tiring the dog out. Which is where real trainers and behaviorists with real skills come in.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

dandogman said:


> Personally, I believe... different methods work with different individual [dogs], much like humans.


Allow me to point out that reward-based training works with all dogs - & for that matter, any species
that's capable of learning any behavior, including _Planaria_ & insects. Wasps have been trained to alert
on explosive-ingredients & land-mines. Pouched-rats are excellent for de-mining operations.
Parrots can learn complex verbal relationships & express them accurately.
Birds in free-flight shows aren't trained with shock-collars. 


ouesi said:


> Ive said it before, Ill say it again: *What "works" is a poor measure of a training method.*
> Eating iceberg lettuce & drinking diet coke "works" to lose weight. Doesnt make it advisable.
> Stealing "works" to gain cash, doesnt make it right.
> Dominating a dog, exercising them to exhaustion, kicking, poking, intimidating, etc,
> ...


Click! :thumbup: Rep for U.

Indeed - "it works for me" is an inadequate yardstick. :yesnod: All the dogs who've already been thru
the "boot camp" regimen, some of them more than once, & who still have not only the original issue,
but *develop new & improved issues, often worse than the presenting complaint*, should be
sufficient evidence to dissuade dog-owners from trying to "dominate" their dog into desirable behavior.

That the formerly-aggro dog, or the formerly-fearful dog, is now shut-down & nonreactive doesn't mean
the dog is 'cured'; it merely means the symptoms are suppressed, & if that's Ur idea of a cure, it's bad.

A pill that suppresses symptoms is not only NOT a cure, it's downright dangerous; reducing a fever
or eliminating pain can mean we've succeeded in "feeling better", but if the underlying infection is ignored,
U can feel fine, right up to the moment that U die --- of a treatable problem.

Actually CHANGING the dog's emotional response via classical or counter-conditioning is a cure.
That's what B-Mod does: change the root of the behavior, & thus alter the displayed behavior.

Leaving the conditioned emotional response unchanged & plastering over it is mere window-dressing,
& often results in an eruption of new issues, under other circumstances.


dandogman said:


> I agree [with] CM [that the lack of] exercise... is the [root?] of many problems that people have
> with their dogs.





ouesi said:


> Exercise is not the panacea its purported to be, either.
> Often... you end up with... a fitter dog, who requires more exercise to get worn-out.
> Or what of the many dogs with issues, who for some reason or another cannot be exercised -
> recovering from surgery, heartworm-positive, injured and/or ill? What do you do with these dogs?
> ...


If exercise was such a cure-all, no dog who jogs with the owner, jogs as they bike, hikes & swims,
or competes in agility, disc-dog, flyball, etc, would *ever* exhibit problem-behaviors.
Yet - obviously - even the athletes of the dog-world don't all behave as their owners would wish, do they?

"Exercise" is another of those hoary old truisms that CM likes to pretend he coined, all on his own. 
However, it was something i heard as a 10-YO in 4-H dog obedience, & that's 40-years ago; it was OLD
then, every vet - just like every doctor! --- would advise regular exercise for good health & longevity.

F-A-T is definitely worse than 'fit' - but even fit dogs can have serious behavioral issues.
The 2 cannot be conflated, they're separate things.
.
.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> *Hello all,
> 
> I had been posting on topics with advice and even mentioning the dog whisperer which caused some trouble. I just hadn't realised that people here on the dog training forums hates Cesar Millan so much. I didn't mean to cause any fights or ruffle anybody's feathers.
> 
> ...


Haven't read all the replies due to time-pressure and a general idea of what those replies would say. I also skipped a few pages to see if you'd actually come back.  

I'm another ex-fan of CM. I wasn't put off by those on here, either. I just decided to try positive reinforcement methods for myself and then compare dominance theory to pos-res methods. Pound for pound, pos-res methods have worked better for me.

Yes, I could "alpha roll" *_cough_* literally sweep my dogs off their feet *_cough_* in the name of "Pack Leader". I could use choke chains or other coercive methods to gain control over my dogs, but what would it prove? It would prove that I have the power to use physical force over my dog, but it would crush their trust and respect for me. I could tug the dogs leads to get them to follow me - they'll only tug back again in a second's time anyway. I could use physical force to drag Milly away from the cat she really wants to destroy - but I risk causing her an injury to her pads.  I could yell at her to Leave It when she decides to raid outside bins, but if I didn't offer a worthwhile alternative, you can bet your bottom dollar she'll stop and look at me, give me the :dita: sign and shove her head back in that public bin. There's no thought or intelligence used in physically forcing a dog to do something - just brute strength.

I could do all that! But I choose not to. I'd rather my dogs greet me with joy or at least calm indifference,  rather than skulking around with their heads low, like CM's Junior did so often back when I watched his shows.  I'd rather teach the dogs to go off and explore, before calling them back and watching them sprint towards me, joy on their faces as their anticipate a well-deserved treat. Milly's cat chasing can be kept in control by increasing distance between her and the "enemy", and by treating her for looking at me rather than focusing on the cat. That way, I'm giving her the choice - the cat that she'll never get (because she's on the lead), or a treat, which she will if she concentrates on me and NOT on the cat.

As for her bin raiding, instead of demanding obedience because I'm "Pack Leader" I tell her to Leave It, and praise and treat her when she does. Rest assured that neither of my dogs took me seriously when I try to "dominate" them. They take me much more seriously when they know they're working towards a treat, a praise, or some other kind of reward.

Finally, my dogs are my companions - not my subordinates. They enjoy their training and/or scent based games (I haven't watched CM since getting Milly nearly 2 years ago, but I can't ever remember watching him play Find It with a dog just because the dogs enjoy the game) Oh, yes, I've seen him chuck a ball or 2, but for someone who promotes nose, eyes, ears, he doesn't really engage the dog's nose in a playful manner  Now I'm not saying there's anything wrong with throwing a ball for a dog - I do exactly the same once in a while for my dogs - but both dogs enjoy scentwork games such as Find It, or treat under the cup.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

LinznMilly said:


> I could do all that! But I choose not to. I'd rather my dogs greet me with joy or at least calm indifference,  rather than skulking around with their heads low, like CM's Junior did so often back when I watched his shows.  I'd rather teach the dogs to go off and explore, before calling them back and watching them sprint towards me, *joy on their faces* as their anticipate a well-deserved treat. Milly's cat chasing can be kept in control by increasing distance between her and the "enemy", and by treating her for looking at me rather than focusing on the cat. That way, I'm giving her the choice - the cat that she'll never get (because she's on the lead), or a treat, which she will if she concentrates on me and NOT on the cat.


^^^ This!! 

Prof John Bradshaw noted in his book "In Defence of Dogs" [Dog Sense in USA] how some "dominance" trainers appear to suck all the joy out of owning a dog.

I think I know where he got that phrase from too - I was on an anti-CM group some years ago, at about the time he was writing the book. I know I mentioned the one thing I saw about CM that almost reduced me to tears, and I used the exact same phrase.

It was the episode when CM was talking to the owner of an Australian Shepherd. She ended up in tears, and her dog cuddled up to her to lick her tears away. "See?" said Cesar, "He is being dominant now, he is taking advantage of your weakness."

I was absolutely aghast that he could take something so innocent and touching and literally, suck all the joy out of it. That dog was as dominant as my little toe - it was doing one of the things all dogs do so wonderfully - it was in touch with its owner's feelings, and showing that incredible bond and love that makes dogs such special creatures.

I feel sorry in a way, that CM has so little empathy with the animals he claims to "love".


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Cesar Millan (el perrero as he was originally called by his mates back home) has long been making it up as he goes along and sticking with random bits that he comes up with that he thinks sounds good. 
No actual science, solid theoretical knowledge, understanding of complex and intricate behaviour and learning theory or even basic methodology to back himself up.
The "psstt" noise which he uses combined with numerous physical and highly aversive corrections (sorry "touches"), is the same noise that his mother used to make when she was interrupting unwanted behaviour from him as a child.

Any link he makes with the noise and dominance, discipline etc is fabrication and woolfluff.

He gets bitten so regularly I'm surprised he doesn't more closely resemble Swiss cheese by now. He gets bitten so regularly and often quite severely because he knows nothing about basic body language (forget more complex stuff in more damaged/conflicted dogs), calming signals and how to properly work with animals.

It's a topic that could be done to death but in short:

1. He links his* fabricated and 'make it up as you go along style' "methods" to dominance theory*. This theory (another fabrication and misapplication of existing scientific terms), founded from flawed captive wolf studies (multiple issues, 1. Captive wolves do not produce natural behaviour or social groups 2. Dogs and wolves are two different species anyway 3. The results for the invalid study were also completely falsified) has been *debunked* so many times it's getting silly. 
Wolves actually form familial groups in the wild anyway. Debunked dominance theory in this sense makes absolutely no sense. Additionally dogs aren't wolves so behaviour studies relating to wolves (an entirely different species) whether good quality or poor are not relevant to the study of behaviour of dogs.

Before Schenkel (person responsible for the falsified wolf study) completely misconstrued common understanding of the term "dominant", it meant the following in evolutionary/darwinist terms:
Dominant animals are great examples of their species, socially confident, with great communication skills (thus rarely needing to resort to aggression and tend to have an ability to break up conflict between other group members) who will consequentially be more likely to become a breeding animal and pass their potentially more desirable genes on to the next generation.

With this all in mind, what Cesar refers to as dominance is again complete fabrication and completed irrelevant for a highly complex, highly selectively bred species with a high (and hardwired) preference for interspecies companionships (man is the natural companion of dogs- dogs have even adapted specific skills for reading humans and only humans).

2. *He lacks fundamental understanding of behaviour science*.

Learning theory vs emotional responses. 
Drives/hardwired behaviour patterns vs learnt behaviour. 
Basic body language (and complex structures). 
Reading stress in an animal.

3. The methods he uses, (aside being totally inappropriate because he doesn't understand behaviour science- he applies operant conditioning based methods to behaviours that are not subject to operant conditioning) are *aversive, punitive, unpleasant, damaging and cruel.* 
Many cases shown on his show actually raise serious concerns for animal welfare. 
There have been law suits filed several times.

A dog will learn nothing of value from his 'methods' but may very easily learn not to trust humans, that they are unpredictable, the source of pain and discomfort and that the world is a very stressful place.

Shadow turns blue

"I didn't see that coming!"


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Ive said it before, Ill say it again. What works is a poor measure of a training method. Eating iceberg lettuce and drinking diet coke works to lose weight. Doesnt make it advisable. Stealing works to gain cash, doesnt make it right.
> Dominating a dog, exercising them to exhaustion, kicking, poking, intimidating etc. absolutely work to make a dog stop doing undesirable behaviors. Doesnt make it right, doesnt make it humane, doesnt make it the most effective way to have a relationship with your dog.
> 
> Exercise is not the panacea its purported to be either. Often what you end up with is a fitter dog who requires more exercise to get worn out. Or what of the many dogs with issues who for some reason or another cannot be exercised - recovering from surgery, heart worm positive, injured and/or ill? What do you do with these dogs? Sometimes you have to have skills that go beyond tiring the dog out. Which is where real trainers and behaviorists with real skills come in.


At what point did I mention being violent towards a dog? Please enlighten me!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Allow me to point out that reward-based training works with all dogs - & for that matter, any species
> that's capable of learning any behavior, including _Planaria_ & insects. Wasps have been trained to alert
> on explosive-ingredients & land-mines. Pouched-rats are excellent for de-mining operations.
> Parrots can learn complex verbal relationships & express them accurately.
> ...


What's the need for you to add in [ ] to my quotes? Changing 'route' to 'root' was quite trivial tbh... you obviously have too much time on your hands.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2013)

dandogman said:


> At what point did I mention being violent towards a dog? Please enlighten me!


You didnt.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

the original -


dandogman said:


> I agree the way CM believes exercise (or lack of) is the route of many problems people have with their dogs.


compared to -


> Originally Posted by *dandogman* -
> Edited for comprehension by *LeashedForLife -*
> 
> "I agree [with] CM [that the lack of] exercise... is the [root?] of many problems that people have
> with their dogs."





dandogman said:


> What's the need for you to add in [ ] to my quotes?


Because i edited the quotes for ease of comprehension.

For future reference, when U quote a comment, it WON't quote anything that was quoted *within* 
that comment - what appeared in Ur quote of my comment was solely my own text, not Urs - 
thus there was no example of my outrageous *How-Dare-I !* editing. 

Sorry for making Ur copy easier to understand. From now on, i'll just leave it incomprehensible
& confusing, as in the original. :yesnod: No worries!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> *Dominating a dog, exercising them to exhaustion, kicking, poking, intimidating, etc,*
> absolutely "work" to make a dog stop doing undesirable behaviors.
> 
> Doesnt make it right, doesnt make it humane, doesnt make it the most effective way to have
> a relationship with your dog.





dandogman said:


> At what point did I mention being violent towards a dog?
> Please enlighten me!


The topic of the thread is Millan & his methods - & he has used every one of the tactics in *bold*.

I do not know if U use Mr Millan as a role-model, but if U do, those are all "as seen on TV" examples
of his chosen suite of techniques - which is why his methods are roundly condemned by many well-known,
highly-regarded individuals around the world, as well as entire organizations from AVSAB to Aussie Vets' Assoc.
& he's banned from at least 2 nations' broadcasting entirely, as a threat to public safety & a danger
to dogs' welfare.

Don't take personally what is directed to the topic of the thread.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Sorry for making Ur copy easier to understand. From now on, i'll just leave it incomprehensible
> & confusing, as in the original. :yesnod: No worries!


To be fair, I dont like that you edit quotes either 
True, often it is hard to figure out what folks are trying to say especially with homonym errors, but to go so far as to edit and correct - however innocent the intention - ends up feeling more condescending than helpful. From what I know of you, I dont think for a minute youre trying to be condescending, but I can see how it would feel that way to the quotee 

Can I make a humble suggestion? Instead of editing the actual quotes, maybe paraphrase how you read it? So something like If what you mean is that you agree with CMs assertion that lack of exercise is the root of many behavioral problems, then my response to you is ____ or something like that.

Gawd, now Im sounding all teacherly and condescending. LOL! Oh well, its all good... Lets just stick to dethroning the toothed ones godlike status in the eyes of innocent dog owners


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Lets just stick to dethroning the toothed ones godlike status in the eyes of innocent dog owners


Like  ..........


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

There are times I wish I had some sort of device which I could use on the computer like the red pen my teacher used in my exercise books.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Siskin said:


> There are times I wish I had some sort of device which I could use on the computer like the red pen my teacher used in my exercise books.


Wouldn't that be put to better use to blot out every video of CM?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> the original -
> 
> compared to -
> 
> ...


I actually find your edits make it more difficult to read and understand to be honest


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I actually find your edits make it more difficult to read and understand to be honest


Me too. Can't understand a thing, reads like double dutch to me


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Back on the subject lol....

As for how important it is that a method "works"....

Personally I do NOT believe the end always justifies the means, especially when there are many more humane methods available - but do CMs method even actually work?

He gets himself bitten all the bleeding (pun intended!) time - personally I can't see how this is a sign of good handling skills, or any competence at reading body language etc. Frankly, if anyone else working with animals in any sphere got bitten as frequently as he does they would be deemed a resounding failure.

He gets other people bitten (as a result of redirected aggression). Considering he is suposedly helping people with their dogs, getting them bitten by said dogs is again a sign of failure imo.

The dogs that appear "cured" to his adoring public are usually shut down. They are mere shadows of dogs, quiet and anxious. Good luck trying to teach these dogs anything new - they'll be too afraid of making mistakes to want to try. Not to mention the welfare concerns of stress.

Dogs fear him. Dogs on his show are seen running away, hiding, backing away, cowering, shaking, and peeing themselves. This should make it blindingly obvious to anyonme with eyes that he is NOT good with dogs. And that is even without knowing the more subtle signs such as lip licking, whale eyes, yawning, etc. If students reacted this way to a teacher there would be serious questions raised.

He has no people skills. From what I have seen he is rude, sexist, and arrogant. Given that most work involving other people's animals revolves primarily around people skills, this is also something I deem to be a failure on his part.

Several dogs have been permanently removed from their homes after receiving the CM treatment. Some openly on the show (you can't keep your dog - he'll have to come live with my "pack"); others later rehomed or put down. There are probably more that we don't know about thanks to secrecy clauses.

He demonstrates a complete lack of breed-specific knowledge. Any dog-pro worth their salt knows that you do NOT encourage a giant breed to go up and down stairs because of their joints, or expect breeds like great danes to do well on slippery floors because of the high injury risk (some GD rescues in the UK won't rehome you a dane if you have shiny floors in your home), or that choke collars are highly dangerous on breeds with delicate windpipes, or brachycephalics. ALL mistakes that CM makes - proving yet further how little he really knows.

His own dogs are barely trained at all. He openly admitted not being able to teach his own pup how to sit. He has never proven his skills in any competitive format (obedience etc), nor trained a working dog, assistance dog, PAT dog etc.

Fear is usually deemed to be the single biggest cause of aggression in dogs. CM makes dogs more fearful. Supressing behaviours does not change how the dog feels - the result is either the behaviour comes back, or another unwanted behaviour develops in its place. How efffective does this sound?

All this stuff about picking methods that "work for you" is senseless to me when as far as I can tell CMs methods don't work anyway!!


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> "No" is just a noise to a dog.
> Instead of saying "No", why not show the dog what you DO want, and reward when he does it right? Then he will choose to do that, in future.
> 
> By the way - this is DEFINITELY worth watching. It shows how inhumane CM really is. He publicly acknowledges he causes pain to animals and shows no remorse.
> ...


Well if it is just a noise, then why does my dog stop what he is doing when he is doing something naughty and I tell him "no"?
Because it's not the word that counts but your tone of voice.
My dog always knows when he's done wrong and I don't have to shout at or bully him, as you all obviously think I do.

Yes, I agree you should use praise and encouragement for when your dog does what you want them to do, but you ALSO have to have a tactic of disagreement for when they do what you DON'T want them to do right infront of your nose. What are you supposed to do, stand there and watch it rip up your shoes/undies/clothes, wait for it to stop, and then praise? lol, no, you have to do something there and then to stop the dog from chewing. I say "no" and it worked! He hasn't chewed anything since he was a pup because he knows it's not what I want


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> What are you supposed to do, stand there and watch it rip up your shoes/undies/clothes, wait for it to stop, and then praise? lol, no, you have to do something there and then to stop the dog from chewing. I say "no" and it worked! He hasn't chewed anything since he was a pup because he knows it's not what I want


Er.... yes I have done that.

"NO" is merely an interruptor. It means nothing to the dog. You could say "Ah-ah!" or "Oops!" or "Belgium!" it doesn't matter what the word is.... what matters is the context it is used in, and most especially what happens afterwards.

l still think you're missing something crucial here.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Well if it is just a sound, then why does my dog stop what he is doing when he is doing something naughty and I tell him "no"?
> Because it's not the word that counts but your tone of voice.
> He always knows when he's done naughty and I don't have to shout or bully him as you all think.


I don't know about your specific dog, I've never laid eyes on him. But generally "no" is something dogs learn to associate with an unpleasant consequence, so the "no" simply becomes a predictor of something unpleasant.
As for tone of voice... Eh... dogs have amazing hearing. They can hear a crust of bread fall on the carpet from 3 rooms away. I don't think tone of voice matters much. Certainly not as much as clarity of cues and motivation to comply. I don't have to raise my voice or change my tone to get compliance from my dogs. Hell, half the time I don't even need to use my voice at all.



LeaderOfThePack said:


> Yes, I agree you should use praise and encouragement for doing what you want them to do, but you ALSO have to have a tactic for when they do what you DON'T want them to do right infront of your nose. What are you supposed to do, stand there and watch it rip up your shoes/undies/clothes wait for it to stop and then praise? lol no you have to do something there and then to stop the dog from chewing, I say "no" and it worked! He hasn't chewed anything since he was a pup coz he knows it's not what I want


That goes back to teaching the dog *what* to do instead of what *not* to do. If my dog has something they shouldn't then I use a drop or leave it cue. If the dog doesn't have a drop or leave it cue, then you simply remove the item from the dog without fuss, without drama. Then you go back and teach those cues. No sense in punishing the dog for something you never taught him to begin with  
Again, I don't know your dog, but most dogs grow out of chewing things they shouldn't once their adult teeth settle in their jaw not because of any heroic training efforts on our parts, often despite very iffy training efforts on our part.

Really, be careful ascribing human morals/values to a dog. Saying "he knows that's not what I want" is probably a bit of a stretch. Generally dogs do what works. If the behavior works for them, they continue it, if not, they try something else.

If you're really interested in learning more than from just one trainer, you may want to pick up some different books. Maybe start with "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson, or "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier, "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell, or just browse some articles off of Whole Dog Journal or Dog Star Daily. All great places to get started


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Saying he knows thats not what I want is probably a bit of a stretch. Generally dogs do what works. If the behavior works for them, they continue it, if not, they try something else.


They only "know what you want" after a lot of teaching them *what* you want, and that involves hours and an intense bond. And that involves you as the teacher, being crystal clear and able to communicate on a level the dog understands.

It's very easy to teach dogs NOT to do things, but unless you can establish a line of communication to show them what you DO want, it's going to be a stale relationship.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Well if it is just a noise, then why does my dog stop what he is doing when he is doing something naughty and I tell him "no"?
> Because it's not the word that counts but your tone of voice.
> My dog always knows when he's done wrong and I don't have to shout at or bully him, as you all obviously think I do.
> 
> Yes, I agree you should use praise and encouragement for when your dog does what you want them to do, but you ALSO have to have a tactic of disagreement for when they do what you DON'T want them to do right infront of your nose. What are you supposed to do, stand there and watch it rip up your shoes/undies/clothes, wait for it to stop, and then praise? lol, no, you have to do something there and then to stop the dog from chewing. I say "no" and it worked! He hasn't chewed anything since he was a pup because he knows it's not what I want


So did the "No" work to stop your dog moving it's bed in the room he spends all day in alone ? Or did the locking it out in the garden as punishment work? Or locking him in the garage as punishment work? Or did the not feeding him as a punishment work?

Did the "No" stop him from trying to get your cat the reason he has lived shut away? If you have had him since a pup and the cat was there before him, why did "No" not stop him trying to kill the cat?


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

Meezey said:


> So did the "No" work to stop your dog moving it's bed in the room he spends all day in alone ? Or did the locking it out in the garden as punishment work? Or locking him in the garage as punishment work? Or did the not feeding him as a punishment work?
> 
> Did the "No" stop him from trying to get your cat the reason he has lived shut away? If you have had him since a pup and the cat was there before him, why did "No" not stop him trying to kill the cat?


Now Meezy, I thought you and I were friends. And then you go and post this, so nosy me has to go back and look, and oh dear gawd.... There are no words...

LeaderOfThePack, PLEASE read up on some basics on dog behavior and training.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

A question for the Dog Abuser's supporters: What do you suppose that still growing 11 month old St Bernard learned from being forcibly dragged up a slippery spiral staircase?

Answer: that he is even more afraid of stairs than he was to start with, won't go near them at all now because he has learned that they hurt his joints as well as terrify him.

Anyone who thinks that is "training" has no business being anywhere near a dog.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I think i must be one of the few, if not the only CM fan here.
*


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I think i must be one of the few, if not the only CM fan here.
> *


Sadly you're not the only one, there are a few can't see past the humans smile, the confidence and charisma and look at what the dogs are actually saying.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I think i must be one of the few, if not the only CM fan here.
> *


Yep, still holding out Janice! I think there are a few others who are not as brave as you to come forward


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Yep, still holding out Janice! I think there are a few others who are not as brave as you to come forward


*Haha, notice i was good and didn't get into the debate.*


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I have never watched a CM video, never read one of his books.presume he has written books? so can't really comment on his methods but over the years there have been many that have come and gone with various fashion fads re training dogs.

CM has a huge following and has made a lot of money from his works.........so, law of averages would say he has to have some good points in there and maybe the best way forwards instead of putting down somebody not here to defend himself would be take the rough with the smooth.so, whatever bits of whatever training works for you and your dog then use it.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

I used to be a fan until I got a dog myself and found out all the stuff their is out there about him thats not good. I think in the UK we are only shown the showmen stuff if you look on you tube their are some more hard core videos like the one with resrouce guarding lab or the pit ball.

The pittball one shows just how useless he is. Note that he often gets bitten due to his choice of methods which makes him dangerous. 

He enters a garden does his thing and then makes it all safe and brings a very stressed out pittball out and as he saying its all safe he gently taunts the dog with the lead and the dog lunges for him!!!

If you watch the video carefully you can see the dog is so stressed out and certainly uncomfortable with camera crew and being close to Cesar. I am honestly not suprised the dog bit him. 

I don't know how anyone can support those kinds of methods the man is definately unprofesional and I would not let him near my dog or my clients. The stuff he does looks impresive to someone who doesn't have a clue about dogs and I can imagine the only kinds of people who would support his methods and like him are those don't know any better or just don't care that his methods cause distress and suffering.

To me thats just sad >.>


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Well if it is just a noise, then why does my dog stop what he is doing when he is doing something naughty and I tell him "no"?
> Because it's not the word that counts but your tone of voice.
> My dog always knows when he's done wrong and I don't have to shout at or bully him, as you all obviously think I do.
> 
> Yes, I agree you should use praise and encouragement for when your dog does what you want them to do, but you ALSO have to have a tactic of disagreement for when they do what you DON'T want them to do right infront of your nose. What are you supposed to do, stand there and watch it rip up your shoes/undies/clothes, wait for it to stop, and then praise? lol, no, you have to do something there and then to stop the dog from chewing. I say "no" and it worked! He hasn't chewed anything since he was a pup because he knows it's not what I want


Again, not sure what you are not understanding but positive reinforcement training is NOT about letting your dog get away with blue murder, it is about setting your dog up to succeed.. Your dog shouldn't be able to get hold of your shoes/undies/clothes in the first place and if they do then that is YOUR failure...even then all you have to do is swap the item for something the dog IS allowed to chew...

Show a dog what you expect rather than just bleating "no"....."no" means nothing unless you have turned it into a cue for something or the dog knows that after "no" a slap,poke,kick could be coming next... If no worked so well then your dog wouldn't be dragging his bed half way across the room to "annoy" you now would he?, all you would have had to do is say "no" and your "obedient" dog would have worked out to leave his bed where you wanted it :ciappa:

[youtube_browser]9ihXq_WwiWM[/youtube_browser]
Anyone willing to let this man anywhere near their dogs is a fool (IMHO ) 
The problems with many humans is that we are always after the "quick fix" so when someone offers that to us on a plate then most will grab with both hands... :nonod:


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't like CM at all - just to make that clear from the start 

But I must admit, that a lot of this thread is now confusing me.

Jack has on occasion jumped on my vegetable patch or a flower bed and started digging to Australia (because I assume the soil is loose and there are bare patches he can get stuck into). THB it doesn't bother me that much, but I would prefer it if he didn't 

If I notice he has started to do it, I get his attention - call out OI, Jack, NO, tbh whatever word comes to mind first. He will then stop, then I call him over to me and when he comes I praise him.

I don't use an angry voice, I don't get physical with him. I do praise him for coming to me and he will then usually stay away from the veg patch.

(If I don't notice until after the event - say I popped inside to answer the phone and come out to a hole - I simply ignore it and refill the hole.) I have also put some decorative, low wire fencing along the front edges.

My garden is well fenced and totally secure - and he likes to go out and chill on the grass - before anyone says I should not let him out in the garden unsupervised 

But, I can't say he won't ever do it again - he has done it a handful of times - and I think will probably do it again in the Spring when it has been dug over and young plants are put in. 

He is a sensitive soul and is never shouted at or mishandled btw.

What is the CORRECT way of dealing with this, please?


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> I don't like CM at all - just to make that clear from the start
> 
> But I must admit, that a lot of this thread is now confusing me.
> 
> ...


Your doing the right thing a relationship between you and your dog should be built on trust and friendship not master/servent

You should choose whatever method is fun, produces the out come you want and does not cause stress to you or your dog.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Again, not sure what you are not understanding but positive reinforcement training is NOT about letting your dog get away with blue murder, it is about setting your dog up to succeed.. Your dog shouldn't be able to get hold of your shoes/undies/clothes in the first place and if they do then that is YOUR failure...even then all you have to do is swap the item for something the dog IS allowed to chew...
> 
> Show a dog what you expect rather than just bleating "no"....."no" means nothing unless you have turned it into a cue for something or the dog knows that after "no" a slap,poke,kick could be coming next... If no worked so well then your dog wouldn't be dragging his bed half way across the room to "annoy" you now would he?, all you would have had to do is say "no" and your "obedient" dog would have worked out to leave his bed where you wanted it :ciappa:
> 
> ...


what happened eventually to this dog?does anyone know?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Well if it is just a noise, then why does my dog stop what he is doing when he is doing something naughty and I tell him "no"?
> Because it's not the word that counts but your tone of voice.
> My dog always knows when he's done wrong and I don't have to shout at or bully him, as you all obviously think I do.
> 
> Yes, I agree you should use praise and encouragement for when your dog does what you want them to do, but you ALSO have to have a tactic of disagreement for when they do what you DON'T want them to do right infront of your nose. What are you supposed to do, stand there and watch it rip up your shoes/undies/clothes, wait for it to stop, and then praise? lol, no, you have to do something there and then to stop the dog from chewing. I say "no" and it worked! He hasn't chewed anything since he was a pup because he knows it's not what I want


This is exactly the misconception about positive training that I was talking about. It's not about standing there letting the dog do as it pleases and handing out cookies and cuddles, it's about teaching the dog what you do want and what behaviour is appropriate without the use of fear or pain.

If my dog were chewing up my clothes I'd distract him and direct him to something appropriate for him to chew, not punish him for not knowing that clothes aren't appropriate chew toys. I also managed the environment for a while so that he had the chance to form good habits about what is and is not a chew toy. Simply saying "no" or "ah" or whatever you choose as a signal to tell your dog that something isn't right does absolutely nothing to teach them what IS right and can very easily lead to frustration for both human and dog.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> what happened eventually to this dog?does anyone know?


She was taken away to his centre where he continues to bully her in this way and talk about how she's dominant because of how she stands in relation to the food bowl or some such nonsense. There is a follow up video.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

[youtube_browser]9ihXq_WwiWM[/youtube_browser]
Anyone willing to let this man anywhere near their dogs is a fool (IMHO ) 
The problems with many humans is that we are always after the "quick fix" so when someone offers that to us on a plate then most will grab with both hands... :nonod:[/QUOTE]

*Firstly i won't get into the who CM thing. But i would let him near my dogs, if i felt i needed it.
Now back to the video. I actually had a dog who you wouldn't dare get near to his bowl once you had given him his food. Actually, if you had given him ANY form of food he would have you in a flash. He was GSD and in all other ways, he was my big baby.
What did i do about the situation? I learnt to live with it. Hell if someone gave me food and then tried taking it back i would have done the same.
So, as much as i'm a CM fan, i'm one " fool" that also knows how to use my own brain.*


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Your doing the right thing a relationship between you and your dog should be built on trust and friendship not master/servent
> 
> You should choose whatever method is fun, produces the out come you want and does not cause stress to you or your dog.


Thanks for that! I was beginning to think that the use of NO, OI, etc. was a CM method - and as Jack doesn't understand English I was guilty! :yesnod:

How about this one? We usually go out for our walk around 8 - 8.30.

Just lately, if for whatever reason I want to go a bit later, despite being let into the garden several times, he will fidget and whine.

I call him over and direct him to the sofa (his favourite place btw ), tell him to settle and praise him.

He settles for a short while, then does it again.

What should I do?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Holly is in this video. I find this video very, very sad to be honest. Some very, very anxious and frightened dogs.

Cesar&#39;s Dog Training Video: Aggression During Feeding - YouTube


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Thanks for that! I was beginning to think that the use of NO, OI, etc. was a CM method - and as Jack doesn't understand English I was guilty! :yesnod:
> 
> How about this one? We usually go out for our walk around 8 - 8.30.
> 
> ...


This is why I don't have set walk times lol. I have a similar problem only with feeding, I can't vary the times too much otherwise Spen throws up bile.

Personally I'd give him something to do until you're ready to go for the walk if you're going to keep to the routine of a walk at that time for the most part. A stuffed Kong, a raw meaty bone, whatever will keep him quiet until you're ready.

I'm not a part of the "never say no" school personally. I use no or ah to stop Spen doing something at times. I don't yell it, growl it or use it to frighten him, it's just a "no, don't do that please" sort of thing. But what does it actually teach him? Not a whole lot really since he will do the behaviour again if I just leave it at that.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> This is why I don't have set walk times lol. I have a similar problem only with feeding, I can't vary the times too much otherwise Spen throws up bile.
> 
> Personally I'd give him something to do until you're ready to go for the walk if you're going to keep to the routine of a walk at that time for the most part. A stuffed Kong, a raw meaty bone, whatever will keep him quiet until you're ready.
> 
> I'm not a part of the "never say no" school personally. I use no or ah to stop Spen doing something at times. I don't yell it, growl it or use it to frighten him, it's just a "no, don't do that please" sort of thing. But what does it actually teach him? Not a whole lot really since he will do the behaviour again if I just leave it at that.


The morning walk has to be within my own routine before I have to go to work - and I avoid set times for anything else with him apart from meal times - which again, fit around the family routine.

I vary whether he gets an afternoon and/or evening walk to avoid this problem occurring.

(He's is grumbling as I type - just in case I forget it's walky time - and now he's walked over and grabbed his teddy and given him a shake! )

Will defo try the kong though, thanks. 

Better go for a walk


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Colette said:


> Back on the subject lol....
> 
> As for how important it is that a method "works"....
> 
> ...


Brilliant post - rep.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> [youtube_browser]9ihXq_WwiWM[/youtube_browser]
> Anyone willing to let this man anywhere near their dogs is a fool (IMHO )
> The problems with many humans is that we are always after the "quick fix" so when someone offers that to us on a plate then most will grab with both hands... :nonod:


*Firstly i won't get into the who CM thing. But i would let him near my dogs, if i felt i needed it.
Now back to the video. I actually had a dog who you wouldn't dare get near to his bowl once you had given him his food. Actually, if you had given him ANY form of food he would have you in a flash. He was GSD and in all other ways, he was my big baby.
What did i do about the situation? I learnt to live with it. Hell if someone gave me food and then tried taking it back i would have done the same.
So, as much as i'm a CM fan, i'm one " fool" that also knows how to use my own brain.*[/QUOTE]

I always enjoy watching CM get bitten, and that clip where he didn't see it coming is the best.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Meezey said:


> So did the "No" work to stop your dog moving it's bed in the room he spends all day in alone ? Or did the locking it out in the garden as punishment work? Or locking him in the garage as punishment work? Or did the not feeding him as a punishment work?
> 
> Did the "No" stop him from trying to get your cat the reason he has lived shut away? If you have had him since a pup and the cat was there before him, why did "No" not stop him trying to kill the cat?


Oh? That guy?

eta: I couldn't figure out why he didn't just nail the dog bed to the floor, if it moving bothered him so much.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> This is exactly the misconception about positive training that I was talking about. It's not about standing there letting the dog do as it pleases and handing out cookies and cuddles, it's about teaching the dog what you do want and what behaviour is appropriate without the use of fear or pain.
> 
> If my dog were chewing up my clothes I'd distract him and direct him to something appropriate for him to chew, not punish him for not knowing that clothes aren't appropriate chew toys. I also managed the environment for a while so that he had the chance to form good habits about what is and is not a chew toy. Simply saying "no" or "ah" or whatever you choose as a signal to tell your dog that something isn't right does absolutely nothing to teach them what IS right and can very easily lead to frustration for both human and dog.


So you think that by showing your dog it can chew and redirecting it to something nicer to chew than it's already got is going to show it what's acceptable?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> [youtube_browser]9ihXq_WwiWM[/youtube_browser]
> Anyone willing to let this man anywhere near their dogs is a fool (IMHO )
> The problems with many humans is that we are always after the "quick fix" so when someone offers that to us on a plate then most will grab with both hands... :nonod:


How anyone could watch that video and dozens similar and not see the wrong is beyond me


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rona said:


> So you think that by showing your dog it can chew and redirecting it to something nicer to chew than it's already got is going to show it what's acceptable?


No, just redirecting it to something more appropriate isn't enough imo. You need to actually reward it for chewing the appropriate things and perhaps even manage the environment for a period so that bad habits don't form. Undoing bad habits is much more difficult than preventing them from starting in the first place, especially if a dog has already learned it's safe to chew when alone. And so often a dog lying chewing on something appropriate is ignored while chewing something inappropriate gets a huge reaction.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Lurcherlad said:


> I don't like CM at all - just to make that clear from the start
> 
> But I must admit, that a lot of this thread is now confusing me.
> 
> ...


The way Victoria Stilwell deals with diggers, and many I know on here have tried and been successful, is to give them something they can dig. She will build a sandpit, bury lots of treats and toys, and teach them to dig there instead of the vegetable patch.



lilythepink said:


> what happened eventually to this dog?does anyone know?


That dog was taken away by the pratt himself because he decided that it was not safe around children. The stupid owners believes him. What he was not safe around was Cesar Millan.

Resource guarding is not difficult to cure or to manage, so why make a performance of it and threaten the poor dog until he bites, then say a daft thing like: I didn't see that coming. Well, sorry Cesar, but everybody else did.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> The way Victoria Stilwell deals with diggers, and many I know on here have tried and been successful, is to give them something they can dig. She will build a sandpit, bury lots of treats and toys, and teach them to dig there instead of the vegetable patch.
> 
> That dog was taken away by the pratt himself because he decided that it was not safe around children. The stupid owners believes him. What he was not safe around was Cesar Millan.
> 
> Resource guarding is not difficult to cure or to manage, so why make a performance of it and threaten the poor dog until he bites, then say a daft thing like: *I didn't see that coming*. Well, sorry Cesar, but everybody else did.


The sad trueth is most owners watch this rubbish and would not have seen it either thats why I see him and his methods as dangerous. Those who watch him don't know whats wrong and don't understand dog behaviour but will recomend to other owners without fully understanding the damage their causeing to other by introducing him to them.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I think i must be one of the few, if not the only CM fan here.
> *


Oh, youre not at all alone  Tons of people think hes brilliant. 
But the original post was about who disagrees with his methods and why, so thats who youll see posting here.

Like I said earlier, his methods do work - certainly in the short run. I liken it to taking a live bomb and burying it in a deep hole as opposed to taking that same bomb and diffusing it.
Like the Holly video (the one where shes at his dog psychology center)? Classic bomb burying method. Intimidate, confuse, and shut the dog down until she stops outwardly showing her fear and mistrust about food. 
The bomb in the hole is still going off, but if you burry it deep enough, you probably wont know about it, so as far as you know, all is good. Granted theres all sorts of damage going on underground where you cant see, but again, as far as you know, all is good.

You could also diffuse Hollys mistrust around food bomb. You could teach her trust, counter-condition her fear of losing her food, hand feed her, drop yummy tidbits in her bowl as shes eating, leave her alone so she doesnt stress about food.... You know the basic, straight forward, resource guarding protocol that legitimate trainers and behaviorists use every single day with massive success (not the dog has to live their days out as some psychology center because I cant burry this bomb deep enough pseudo success).

Lunar was a resource guarder. He wouldnt warn like Holly though. You got maybe a second or two of freeze before you had a body part in his teeth. The shelter didnt want to adopt him out because of it. He bypassed the assess-a-hand and went for the human holding it. He wasnt messing around. Interestingly, he showed zero guarding around our dogs - just humans. He also wouldnt take offered food from humans. From a feral dog standpoint it all made perfect sense. And we dealt with all of it based on diffusing, not burying. It took less than 6 months to get him perfectly safe around food. Not just learning to live with him safe, I mean my children fed him meals and ate their own meals around him safe.
Resource guarding is a *very* fixable issue, and even if the dog doesnt respond as well as Lunar did - which not all dogs do, its still a very manageable, predictable issue that many people manage to live with just fine.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> [youtube_browser]9ihXq_WwiWM[/youtube_browser]
> Anyone willing to let this man anywhere near their dogs is a fool (IMHO )
> The problems with many humans is that we are always after the "quick fix" so when someone offers that to us on a plate then most will grab with both hands... :nonod:


*Firstly i won't get into the who CM thing. But i would let him near my dogs, if i felt i needed it.
Now back to the video. I actually had a dog who you wouldn't dare get near to his bowl once you had given him his food. Actually, if you had given him ANY form of food he would have you in a flash. He was GSD and in all other ways, he was my big baby.
What did i do about the situation? I learnt to live with it. Hell if someone gave me food and then tried taking it back i would have done the same.
So, as much as i'm a CM fan, i'm one " fool" that also knows how to use my own brain.*[/QUOTE]

Then yes I agree, you are a fool. If after watching the many, many videos of him punching, kicking and strangling dogs isn't enough to show you (and any other "fan") that this man shouldn't be within a hundred yards of a dog is saddening to me..
Hell, even his own dogs are a shadow of their former selfs, Junior is a perfect example of that..Obedient - ok he does as he is told but he is shutting down, it is obvious from the body language... Now if his own dogs look like that then that should scream run as far as you can :yesnod:

People don't have a ban to enter certain countries for no valid reason.

Your dogs, your choices....but the fact of the matter is that CM is a bully and there are far better and humane ways to train :yesnod:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I have no idea how anyone can be a fan, it baffles me how anyone could be a fan of what is nothing other than dog abuse, I fail to see how people can read the shed loads of literature and research etc into his so called "training methods" and still say they are a fan, I also wouldn't let him within a mile of my dogs as why would you allow someone to abuse your dogs? 

I don't think anyone is brave saying they like him, it just shows a lack of understanding of dog training and behaviour. Then again I expect the post was made more to get a response than anything else, my response is pity that people can see the flashy production fake smile and seemingly "fixed" dog's to the dog abuse that it really is.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I remember the first time that watching a CM programme made my heart rate increase and begin to feel stressed - I turned it off straight away.

Sadly, the dogs he abuses, no apology - to me it is abuse - do not have that opportunity.

It truly saddens me when my own dog shows any sign of unease - because of his past. Just me calling up the stairs too loud, to tell my son his tea is ready can make Jack get off the sofa (his favourite spot) and, tail down, slink away 

He is totally safe in our home and we would never shout at him or mistreat him - unfortunately, someone obviously has before - and he has never forgotten. 

Most of the time he is absolutely fine, but occasionally a shadow appears


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Meezey said:


> I have no idea how anyone can be a fan, it baffles me how anyone could be a fan of what is nothing other than dog abuse, I fail to see how people can read the shed loads of literature and research etc into his so called "training mewthods" and still say they are a fan, I also wouldn't let him within a mile of my dogs as why would you allow someone to abuse your dogs?
> 
> I don't think anyone is brave saying they like him, it just shows a lack of understanding of dog training and behaviour.


*I don't think i'm brave either, just honest. I refuse to justify to anyone why i like the guy.
And just for the record, i've had dogs all my adult life and have never needed anyone else to train them. Guess i must have done something right with my dogs.*


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't think i'm brave either, just honest. I refuse to justify to anyone why i like the guy.
> And just for the record, i've had dogs all my adult life and have never needed anyone else to train them. Guess i must have done something right with my dogs.*


Without seeing your dog's body language around you, it would be impossible to either agree or disagree.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I have no idea how anyone can be a fan, it baffles me how anyone could be a fan of what is nothing other than dog abuse, I fail to see how people can read the shed loads of literature and research etc into his so called "training methods" and still say they are a fan, I also wouldn't let him within a mile of my dogs as why would you allow someone to abuse your dogs?
> 
> I don't think anyone is brave saying they like him, it just shows a lack of understanding of dog training and behaviour. Then again I expect the post was made more to get a response than anything else, my response is pity that people can see the flashy production fake smile and seemingly "fixed" dog's to the dog abuse that it really is.


Cognitive dissonance is a fascinating thing


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

[youtube_browser]oMgyqC7lfn0[/youtube_browser]


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't think i'm brave either, just honest. I refuse to justify to anyone why i like the guy.
> And just for the record, i've had dogs all my adult life and have never needed anyone else to train them. Guess i must have done something right with my dogs.*


More than half of adult population has had dogs their entire adult life without anyone training them? Not sure why that's relevant!

No body is asking you to justify it, if you think abusing dogs is an acceptable form of so called "training" that's up to you. Watching dogs being abused its not something I care to witness, nor do I find it remotely entertaining, but each to their own.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> I don't like CM at all - just to make that clear from the start
> 
> But I must admit, that a lot of this thread is now confusing me.
> 
> ...


I've had to rep you for this because you went out of the way to address all issues before they even came up :lol:


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't think i'm brave either, just honest. I refuse to justify to anyone why i like the guy.
> And just for the record, i've had dogs all my adult life and have never needed anyone else to train them. Guess i must have done something right with my dogs.*


You don't have to justify your choice.

You just got lucky then.

My parents used old school methods on my dog when she was a puppy I told them off because they were making her aggresive. Funny how once they stopped she stopped bitting. When I introduced reward based methods it took a while but my dog never bites now and I trust her completely.

I never used any cesar style or old school methods I use positive/reward based training as it does not cause distress to my pet. Cesar does cause great distress to the dogs he encounters you only have to see it in their eyes and their owners don't know any better.

Nothing good comes from using cesar style training.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Prowl said:


> You don't have to justify your choice.
> 
> You just got lucky then.
> 
> ...


*I got lucky?  Don't you think it might have something to do with how i treat my dogs?
Also, i don't ever remember saying i have EVER used any of CM's methods.*


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

FLAMINGOS

Thank you :

Call it paranoia 

How does one check for reps?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Prowl said:


> You don't have to justify your choice.
> 
> You just got lucky then.
> 
> ...


 

What are old school methods?

Many of us have used positive training long before it became the "new fashion dog training"

Maybe Jan does too


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

It just came to me though, to add something...

If someone came on to the forum and worded things slightly differently but used CM's methods without mentioning his name, would they get lambasted for it?

That's a genuine question from someone that now owns a 'Pomicku' (apparently pickachu sits on his trainers shoulder and Bumb always sits on mine - that's how dominant I am :lol: )


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> FLAMINGOS
> 
> Thank you :
> 
> ...


Edit profile and it will just show up hen xxxx

ETA thank god we're getting back to normal times where people can disagree on one thread and not another.

Heaven


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't think i'm brave either, just honest. I refuse to justify to anyone why i like the guy.
> And just for the record, i've had dogs all my adult life and have never needed anyone else to train them. Guess i must have done something right with my dogs.*


The thing is, Janice, that you are not like a lot of CM fanatics who come on here, behaving more like moonies or some other brain washed cult followers. They seem to think it is a personal insult if others don't agree and start chucking out red blobs that I'm not allowed to talk about!

I have just realised that having the food bin where the dogs need to walk past it is not a good idea although it locks. Diva was doing for Ferdie whenever he walked past it, so I have put it in another room and peace has reigned ever since.

As you say about your GSD, you learned to live with it. In other words you learn to manage it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Flamingoes said:


> It just came to me though, to add something...
> 
> If someone came on to the forum and worded things slightly differently but used CM's methods without mentioning his name, would they get lambasted for it?
> 
> That's a genuine question from someone that now owns a 'Pomicku' (apparently pickachu sits on his trainers shoulder and Bumb always sits on mine - that's how dominant I am :lol: )


Yes they would get it in the neck and have, though I think sometimes there's an over reaction to perfectly innocent training methods because the people aren't using the right terminology for this "modern phenomenon"


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

Meezey said:


> More than half of adult population has had dogs their entire adult life without anyone training them? Not sure why that's relevant!
> 
> No body is asking you to justify it, if you think abusing dogs is an acceptable form of so called "training" that's up to you. *Watching dogs being abused its not something I care to witness, nor do I find it remotely entertaining*, but each to their own.


This...

In a country where dog fighting is supposedly illegal, why is it okay for someone like CM to put two pitbulls together - knowing they will fight, film it, and broadcast the footage complete with a gratuitous zoom in on the dog's bloody muzzle? 
Or any of the other multiple breeds he puts in situations where he knows there will be an altercation? 
It's voyeurism at it's worst IMHO. I don't find dogs being strangled, fought, poked, kicked, threatened, intimidated, put in situations that stress them to the max at all entertaining or educational.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> What are old school methods?
> 
> Many of us have used positive training long before it became the "new fashion dog training"
> 
> Maybe Jan does too


*Thank you Rona. I treat my dogs with the respect i would like to be shown.The 2 i have now, are the only dogs i've ever had to use treats as rewards to get them to do what i want. And i blame that on myself for getting 2 puppies at the same time.
As i said earlier, my GSD was very food aggresive (sp) but i learnt to live with that. No violence on my part, just respect.*


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Flamingoes said:


> It just came to me though, to add something...
> 
> If someone came on to the forum and worded things slightly differently but used CM's methods without mentioning his name, would they get lambasted for it?
> 
> That's a genuine question from someone that now owns a 'Pomicku' (apparently pickachu sits on his trainers shoulder and Bumb always sits on mine - that's how dominant I am :lol: )


Good question.

But using phrases such as, poking in the ribs, sharp tug, prong collar, pass the bandages cos I'm bleeding, might just give it away :lol::lol::lol


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

rona said:


> Yes they would get it in the neck and have, though I think sometimes there's an over reaction to perfectly innocent training methods because the people aren't using the right terminology for this "modern phenomenon"


What I sort of meant, though, was without CM as a focus would we see things a bit differently?

Personally (sorry NM and Jan  ) I utterly despise the man for pretty much the same way Meezy put it.

I really lost my temper when he was eating something in the garden when Nicky was over here last and for the first time in 6 years I tapped him on his nose to get him to stop eating it (lots of weird things in that garden and stuff with thistles and such). Okay so lost my temper isn't the right wording - turning into LL now :lol: but I freaked out for his safety, then when I'd done it I pretty much broke my heart for a few hours, I even had to phone my dad because I was so upset and wanted his reassurance.

I couldn't believe I'd even tapped him on the nose, never mind anything else.

He, of course, didn't give a damn and was more concerned with licking me because he could see me crying  :001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> Good question.
> 
> But using phrases such as, poking in the ribs, sharp tug, prong collar, pass the bandages cos I'm bleeding, might just give it away :lol::lol::lol


:lol:

remote massage collar :bored: :lol:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

The methods aren't CMs methods, they've been around for years. I was taught them and used them on my first two dogs way before Cesar Milan was on tv. So yes, I think if people came to the forum saying they used collar corrections, alpha rolls and stuff like that they'd get the same sort of reaction even without mentioning his name. It's the methods that people have the problem with, not just CM himself. He's just the most well known to currently use them.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Flamingoes said:


> It just came to me though, to add something...
> 
> If someone came on to the forum and worded things slightly differently but used CM's methods without mentioning his name, would they get lambasted for it?
> 
> That's a genuine question from someone that now owns a 'Pomicku' (apparently pickachu sits on his trainers shoulder and Bumb always sits on mine - that's how dominant I am :lol: )


For me it would depend on what methods they are using.
So for example if someone came here proudly announcing that they use the "ninga stance" to push their dog to react or think it is acceptable to poke, prod or strangle their dog then hell yes I would lambaste them, however, if they they were just not allowing their dog through doors first, or they eat before the dog in the misguided attempt to be "head of the pack" then I would probably try to explain about the "dominance theory" but that would be it.

It all depends on what "gems" of advice they choose to pick up on, I won't lie, I used to think CM talked sense when I first heard about him but as soon as I started to research more about dog body language and noticed that he chooses conflict with each and every training "issue" made me realise that this man is nothing but a jumped up bully that has control issues.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> For me it would depend on what methods they are using.
> So for example if someone came here proudly announcing that they use the "ninga stance" to push their dog to react or think it is acceptable to poke, prod or strangle their dog then hell yes I would lambaste them, however, if they they were just not allowing their dog through doors first, or they eat before the dog in the misguided attempt to be "head of the pack" then I would probably try to explain about the "dominance theory" but that would be it.
> *
> It all depends on what "gems" of advice they choose to pick up on, I won't lie, I used to think CM talked sense when I first heard about him but as soon as I started to research more about dog body language and noticed that he chooses conflict with each and every training "issue" made me realise that this man is nothing but a jumped up bully that has control issues.*


Exactly the same I'm afraid 

I never used his methods as it's just not my mentality (not meaning that in a derogative sense at all; just I mean I really am very fluffy and pink in real life  ) and it wouldn't occur to me to treat anyone or anything with harm, but I used to walk with a lady who was obsessed with the programme and I genuinely didn't see what was wrong until I joined the forum and then researched more into it and such.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Flamingoes said:


> What I sort of meant, though, was without CM as a focus would we see things a bit differently?
> 
> Personally (sorry NM and Jan  ) I utterly despise the man for pretty much the same way Meezy put it.
> 
> ...


It's the method I have the major issue with, his delivery of the method makes me want to smack those perfectly white teeth to the back of his throat! He uses fear to control the dogs, he rarely fixes them, or works out the real problem of why they act a certain way he dresses it up with some bs "dominance issue" and scares them in to just not showing the behaviour, they are not fixed they are the same dogs with the same issue who now just can't show they aren't coping with a situation well. Watching his dogs make me want to cry, why have dogs if they can't be dogs? He should a got himself a stuffed toy! So same methods without prat features delivering them, same response from me.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Pretty sure Barbara Woodhouse would be sent off with a flea in her ear too


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Meezey said:


> It's the method I have the major issue with, his delivery of the method makes me want to smack those perfectly white teeth to the back of his throat! He uses fear to control the dogs, he rarely fixes them, or works out the real problem of why they act a certain way he dresses it up with some bs "dominance issue" and scares them in to just not showing the behaviour, their not fixed they are the same dogs with the same issue who know just can show they aren't coping with a situation well. Watching his dogs make me want to cry, why have dogs if they can't be dogs? He should a got himself a stuffed toy! So same methods without pray features delivering them, same response from me.


I don't always think I'm educated enough to comment, in a way, as he's my first dog apart from a family dog and I think I've been ridiculously lucky with how his behaviour and training are.

He's just an incredible individual and I probably don't deserve him :lol:

Part of what I'm thinking though is that I've never really had to look into negating an issue with him, he just sort of came pre-made


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> The methods aren't CMs methods, they've been around for years. I was taught them and used them on my first two dogs way before Cesar Milan was on tv. So yes, I think if people came to the forum saying they used collar corrections, alpha rolls and stuff like that they'd get the same sort of reaction even without mentioning his name. It's the methods that people have the problem with, not just CM himself. He's just the most well known to currently use them.


Barbara Woodhouse and the Monks of New Skeete, Bill Koehler before them... And Konrad Most was it?

Yeah, theres a reason the only dogs you ever saw in the obedience ring for years were the ones specifically bred to be able to take the kind of corrections regularly doled out in training. To this day, its a point of pride in many breeds if a dog can take correction. To such a point that some people are afraid that the current trend towards motivational training in bite sports will end up producing dogs who are too soft. Its all very fascinating to see unfold....


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Flamingoes said:


> What I sort of meant, though, was without CM as a focus would we see things a bit differently?
> 
> Personally (sorry NM and Jan  ) I utterly despise the man for pretty much the same way Meezy put it.
> 
> ...


Don't apologise to me, I hate him as well. I know about the nose tap and personally do not think it is so bad, as long as it is a tap. It doesn't hurt as such, but they don't like it. It used to be a very acceptable method of getting what you want from a dog.



Flamingoes said:


> Exactly the same I'm afraid
> 
> I never used his methods as it's just not my mentality (not meaning that in a derogative sense at all; just I mean I really am very fluffy and pink in real life  ) and it wouldn't occur to me to treat anyone or anything with harm, but I used to walk with a lady who was obsessed with the programme and I genuinely didn't see what was wrong until I joined the forum and then researched more into it and such.


He is probably the reason people say to me: I bet they pull you over; how does someone as small as you control them? Or once when I was just loosely holding their leads while they sat waiting for us to get through the gate: you must be very strong to hold those two. Yeah. They weigh 22 stone between them and I weigh nine. Obviously, I should be doing competitions

Most people would never be able to use his methods on a giant breed and if they did they would probably get bitten. All giants that I can think of were bred to do a job without human intervention, to think for themselves, and they would not submit to such nonsense.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Don't apologise to me, I hate him as well. I know about the nose tap and personally do not think it is so bad, as long as it is a tap. It doesn't hurt as such, but they don't like it. It used to be a very acceptable method of getting what you want from a dog.
> 
> He is probably the reason people say to me: I bet they pull you over; how does someone as small as you control them? Or once when I was just loosely holding their leads while they sat waiting for us to get through the gate: you must be very strong to hold those two. Yeah. They weigh 22 stone between them and I weigh nine. Obviously, I should be doing competitions
> 
> Most people would never be able to use his methods on a giant breed and if they did they would probably get bitten. * All giants that I can think of were bred to do a job without human intervention, to think for themselves, and they would not submit to such nonsense.*


Me and Nicky always seem to say 'try doing that to Zaros' ' :lol:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Flamingoes said:


> I don't always think I'm educated enough to comment, in a way, as he's my first dog apart from a family dog and I think I've been ridiculously lucky with how his behaviour and training are.
> 
> He's just an incredible individual and I probably don't deserve him :lol:
> 
> Part of what I'm thinking though is that I've never really had to look into negating an issue with him, he just sort of came pre-made


Course you deserve him, he wouldn't have turned out the same if you hadn't brought him up the way you did. You played a big part in making an incredible individual 

I have Rottweilers I've never understood why people need force to train them, or people who have so many issues with them as if you "understand " what you have on the end of your lead, there is never a reason to use force or fear in training!


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Course you deserve him, he wouldn't have turned out the same if you hadn't brought him up the way you did. You played a big part in making an incredible individual
> 
> I have Rottweilers I've never understood why people need force to train them, or people who have so many issues with them as if you "understand " what you have on the end of your lead, there is never a reason to use force or fear in training!


And little dogs always being accused of the aggregation :mad2:

It drives me mad when a bigger dog is attacked by a toy breed and then retaliate and they get the blame.

He's never been babied...well *looks at him asleep on my bed* not too much *kicks two bin liners of toys out of the way that wont fit in his toy box 

But he does have his gold good citizens and thrives on agility and HWTM*

*Any human that has a sense of direction or what doesn't feel like 300-two-left-feet please apply at Bumble.com - I utterly SUCK


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Well anyone who knows me, knows I regularly beat mine with a very large stick, which I make them fetch for me of course, and starve them into submission. The only reason their coats are so shiny are because I regularly give them a spray with Pledge (other polishes are available) to give the illusion of them looking well kept 

Can't stand CM, when I didn't own a dog, I thought he talked sense, now I do own dogs, and love training/working with them, I can't understand why anyone would want to have such a [email protected] relationship with their dogs.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Flamingoes said:


> Me and Nicky always seem to say 'try doing that to Zaros' ' :lol:


Precisely my point. Sarplaninacs are livestock guardians, trained with the herd from four weeks old, living with the herd and protecting it. And oh, surprise, surprise, no bully boys forcing them to do anything.

Newfoundlands are not as brave as them, but if someone is drowning, they will jump in and save them without being told. One in Canada won a medal once when he heard a child crying, climbed out of his stable/kennel and dug a kid out of a snowdrift. All on his own.



Meezey said:


> Course you deserve him, he wouldn't have turned out the same if you hadn't brought him up the way you did. You played a big part in making an incredible individual
> 
> I have Rottweilers I've never understood why people need force to train them, or people who have so many issues with them as if you "understand " what you have on the end of your lead, there is never a reason to use force or fear in training!


Cos it makes them look 'ard, that's why. Rotties are lovely dogs in the right hands and it is tragic that so many people avoid them because of breed prejudice, and that just makes them untrusting of humans.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> Most people would never be able to use his methods on a giant breed and if they did they would probably get bitten. All giants that I can think of were bred to do a job without human intervention, to think for themselves, *and they would not submit to such nonsense*.


Unfortunately this is not really true.
Part of what makes dogs dogs is that having evolved alongside of man, they evolved in to a species that is easily intimidated by man. Ian Dunbar talks about how theyre just so beatable. Yell at a dog and the dog will likely respond with appeasement or at the very least will slink away (which rewards the humans behavior of yelling). Yell at say a grizzly bear, wag your finger in his face and say no, no, bad bear and the bear will cuff you upside the head and there goes your head rolling down the hill.

Yeah, there are a few specialist breeds out there who might respond more like a grizzly bear than your average pet breed, but most newfies, st. bernards, even the molossers like danes are easy enough to intimidate. I should know, Ive seen enough of them in rescue, cowering, fearful messes 
Without a doubt, you create a ticking time bomb when you teach a giant breed to be fearful, and mistrust humans. And indeed plenty of folks get bitten by those ticking time bombs. And plenty of those dogs learn to use their brawn, but theres always some cowboy out there with a bigger stick sadly...


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> The kind, empathic trainer *would not have let the dog get into that situation in the first place* as has already been said.


Oh? And how exactly would I get my dog in that situation? What are you guys implying; that I got a small animal, plonked it infront of my dog and said "go for it, eat your heart out"?

The only way I could keep my dog out of the situation where he is in the vicinity of a small animal is if I kept him locked up in the house all of the time.

What exactly do you people mean by "that situation"?

You see, my garden is large and I take him out there to be fling-balled and exercised and if he spots a small animal at any time, he will just run after it. I have not played any part in putting my dog in that situation. When he suddenly goes shooting off after the said animal, ya can't stop him. I've tried calling him back but he ignores me, now I no longer exist to him now he's tailing his prey.
More often than not, the animal escapes but sometimes he has grabbed it and started ragging it in which case I run after the dog and get him to let the animal go, which isn't easy.

Instead of judgemental high and mighty comments "Oh I'm a saint, I would never let my dog get that far" from you guys, I'd like to actually know how to train him not to go after other animals and if he does, how to stop him. Like as I've said, to him I don't exist when he spots an animal and he doesn't listen to me.

He is really good and listens to me at all other times though.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Oh? And how exactly would I get my dog in that situation? What are you guys implying; that I got a small animal, plonked it infront of my dog and said "go for it, eat your heart out"?
> 
> The only way I could keep my dog out of the situation where he is in the vicinity of a small animal is if I kept him locked up in the house all of the time.
> 
> ...


I listed several books and links for you to start your journey on learning about dogs and how to train them.

Asking how do I train a dog is kind of like asking how do I dance ballet. Its not a simple forum post answer. Its years of study and practice and trial and error and just plain old learning.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> She was taken away to his centre where he continues to bully her in this way and talk about how she's dominant because of how she stands in relation to the food bowl or some such nonsense. There is a follow up video.


Thank you.poor girl, what a shame.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Oh? And how exactly would I get my dog in that situation? What are you guys implying; that I got a small animal, plonked it infront of my dog and said "go for it, eat your heart out"?
> 
> The only way I could keep my dog out of the situation where he is in the vicinity of a small animal is if I kept him locked up in the house all of the time.
> 
> ...


Wow you really know how to make friends and influence people don't you! Stop acting like a brat and a know it all and people might help because you are coming across as someone who thinks they know it all and everyone else is wrong, if you act like you know it all and don't take on board advise why the hell would anyone waste their time helping you? Your in your 20's not 2 so stop spitting your dummy out!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Oh? And how exactly would I get my dog in that situation? What are you guys implying; that I got a small animal, plonked it infront of my dog and said "go for it, eat your heart out"?
> 
> The only way I could keep my dog out of the situation where he is in the vicinity of a small animal is if I kept him locked up in the house all of the time.
> 
> ...


Who would have thought that a simple thing such as a long line and teaching your dog a solid recall would help in such a situation :yesnod:


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

As entrenched in to pack leadership and dominance baloney as LeaderOfThePack appears to be, in all fairness, the poor gal is probably completely overwhelmed at this point. Im not at all surprised she feels the need to lash out a bit. 

LeaderOfThePack, take a breather, enjoy the holidays, and then go back and read some of the great posts on this thread, give them time to settle and digest, then read again. Change is hard and it takes time. Be fair to yourself and the information being presented and give it the time it needs.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

My last dog had a loooong history of chasing, killing and eating other animals. For us it was a management issue for the most part, not giving him the opportunity to go chasing and killing things. We did lots of impulse control work too which made a huge difference but I would never, ever have trusted him with other animals. And no way I could get a recall once he'd started to chase. If I was going to get it I had to get it in that split second before he took off. 

I'm sure there are trainers out there who could have done a lot better than I did with Rupert but alas, he didn't have them, just me. And I was learning as I went along. It is possible to do but as Ouesi says, it's not really as simple as saying to do A, B and C and you'll get the desired result.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Oh? And how exactly would I get my dog in that situation? What are you guys implying; that I got a small animal, plonked it infront of my dog and said "go for it, eat your heart out"?
> 
> The only way I could keep my dog out of the situation where he is in the vicinity of a small animal is if I kept him locked up in the house all of the time.
> 
> ...


See below:



StormyThai said:


> Who would have thought that a simple thing such as a long line and teaching your dog a solid recall would help in such a situation :yesnod:


Unless your dog is a sighthound, especially a greyhound, there will not be much in the way of small furries that cannot outrun him.


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

Sarah1983 said:


> Sadly you're not the only one, there are a few can't see past the humans smile, the confidence and charisma and look at what the dogs are actually saying.


Now you see this is my problem I have tried to watch him but can't because of the above I end up switching off


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Flamingoes said:


> What I sort of meant, though, was without CM as a focus would we see things a bit differently?


I wouldn't, but then most of my time with dogs has been before CM was ever heard of.

My influences were Dr Ian Dunbar and Joe Irving


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> You guys are so right! I may have been a bit ignorant before, but you're right, I should do more research before completely following any one trainer/behaviorist's methods, and I'm going to do that from now on!
> 
> I have actually found that certain things work on my dog and certain things don't so I just change and alternate with methods accordingly.
> 
> ...


*I have just read this thread again, and this post reminds me of my 1st gsd. Well he wasn't mine as such, he belonged to my hubby when i first met him.
He would chase and kill, i'm ashamed to say, why i will never know.
I have just asked hubby when and why sabre ( the dog) started doing this. He hasn't got a clue. My reply was, " so it was down to your lack of training him".
Fast forward to when hubby and i married. I so wanted a toy poodle, but hadn't got a clue as to how to deal with Sabre and his agression. 
Now this i know people will not agree with. I got my poodle, kept them seperate until the poodle chewed up my new carpet. I them left them both in the kitchen on their own. And guess what. Sabre was a baby, my new pup would and did run circles around him.
Now why would he behave like this, and yet he would go for the kill if it was any other animal?
To the original poster, you have my sympathy, for what it's worth.
Should i ever be in the same situation again, i would probably muzzle my dog.*


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Oh? And how exactly would I get my dog in that situation? What are you guys implying; that I got a small animal, plonked it infront of my dog and said "go for it, eat your heart out"?
> 
> The only way I could keep my dog out of the situation where he is in the vicinity of a small animal is if I kept him locked up in the house all of the time.
> 
> ...


i only dozed off for five minutes :lol:

What makes me wonder is that you're such a fan of a 'prey' food and yet willing to cause harm to your dog


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I have just read this thread again, and this post reminds me of my 1st gsd. Well he wasn't mine as such, he belonged to my hubby when i first met him.
> He would chase and kill, i'm ashamed to say, why i will never know.
> I have just asked hubby when and why sabre ( the dog) started doing this. He hasn't got a clue. My reply was, " so it was down to your lack of training him".
> Fast forward to when hubby and i married. I so wanted a toy poodle, but hadn't got a clue as to how to deal with Sabre and his agression.
> ...


Dogs chase and kill because they are predators. From a pointer freezing and pointing, to a bloodhound tracking, to a St. Bernard finding a human in the snow, to a lab chasing a ball, to a collie herding, to a terrier going to ground, to a greyhound chasing and killing rabbits, its all part of the predatory chain of behaviors. 
We humans have selected for certain expressions of the predatory behavior chain but we have not turned dogs in to non-predators. 
That a dog will chase and kill small furries is not unusual at all. Our great dane bitch thoroughly enjoys hunting rabbits and field mice, yet she is perfectly fine with small dogs as she recognizes them as dogs. Bates is the same way, he will happily kill chickens and cats, chase squirrels and hunt moles, but he has many small dog friends to whom he poses no danger. Dogs are perfectly capable of telling the difference between a dog and a hare


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Dogs chase and kill because they are predators. From a pointer freezing and pointing, to a bloodhound tracking, to a St. Bernard finding a human in the snow, to a lab chasing a ball, to a collie herding, to a terrier going to ground, to a greyhound chasing and killing rabbits, its all part of the predatory chain of behaviors.
> We humans have selected for certain expressions of the predatory behavior chain but we have not turned dogs in to non-predators.
> That a dog will chase and kill small furries is not unusual at all. Our great dane bitch thoroughly enjoys hunting rabbits and field mice, yet she is perfectly fine with small dogs as she recognizes them as dogs. Bates is the same way, he will happily kill chickens and cats, chase squirrels and hunt moles, but he has many small dog friends to whom he poses no danger. Dogs are perfectly capable of telling the difference between a dog and a hare


*But the dog i am talking about didn't care about size, or what animal.
*


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Ian Dunbar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Punishment & Reward - Training Dogs with Dunbar - YouTube

When to Praise, How to Punish - Training Dogs with Dunbar - YouTube

Dr. Ian Dunbar dog training expert specific corrections for bad behavior - YouTube


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I have just read this thread again, and this post reminds me of my 1st gsd. Well he wasn't mine as such, he belonged to my hubby when i first met him.
> He would chase and kill, i'm ashamed to say, why i will never know.
> I have just asked hubby when and why sabre ( the dog) started doing this. He hasn't got a clue. My reply was, " so it was down to your lack of training him".
> Fast forward to when hubby and i married. I so wanted a toy poodle, but hadn't got a clue as to how to deal with Sabre and his agression.
> ...


Cause you're scary as hell as I'm constantly telling you


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *But the dog i am talking about didn't care about size, or what animal.
> *


Bates doesnt either. From a squirrel to a horse, its all prey as far as hes concerned. GSDs can be very prey driven and it wouldnt have been at all unusual for a GSD to be the exact same way. Hell, it doesnt even have to be an animal. Plenty of dogs will chase cars and bikes and skateboards from prey drive. Chasing a ball is prey drive. 
That the dog will kill what he caught is just another link in the chain - again, doesnt matter if its live or inanimate. Bates will just as happily kill tennis balls, cardboard boxes, and stuffed toys. Thats all branches off the same tree.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Flamingoes said:


> Cause you're scary as hell as I'm constantly telling you


*pmsl, me scary? My bark is far worse than my bite, honest.*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Bates doesnt either. From a squirrel to a horse, its all prey as far as hes concerned. GSDs can be very prey driven and it wouldnt have been at all unusual for a GSD to be the exact same way. Hell, it doesnt even have to be an animal. Plenty of dogs will chase cars and bikes and skateboards from prey drive. Chasing a ball is prey drive.
> That the dog will kill what he caught is just another link in the chain - again, doesnt matter if its live or inanimate. Bates will just as happily kill tennis balls, cardboard boxes, and stuffed toys. Thats all branches off the same tree.


*But my question is, why did he behave so differently towards my puppy?*


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *pmsl, me scary? My bark is far worse than my bite, honest.*


I don't believe you, Jan, two muzzles and an e-collar and I might :lol: :lol: xxxxxx

PS a quick merry christmas to you if my autism doesn't keep up with your thread hen xxxxxx


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dunbar was at a time when these were on our tv screens constantly 

BBC.Woof.A.Horizon.Guide.to.Dogs- dominating ur dogs-Barbara Woodhouse - YouTube


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *But my question is, why did he behave so differently towards my puppy?*


Because it was a puppy  Puppies are not prey and most dogs, even if they are not good with puppies, will have a strong natural inhibition against harming puppies.
In fact it is incredibly rare for a stable adult dog to harm a puppy in any way.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Because it was a puppy  Puppies are not prey and most dogs, even if they are not good with puppies, will have a strong natural inhibition against harming puppies.
> In fact it is incredibly rare for a stable adult dog to harm a puppy in any way.


* Now that is what i put it down to. I'm so pleased someone else has thought/said the same. Thank you.*


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

rona said:


> Dunbar was at a time when these were on our tv screens constantly
> 
> BBC.Woof.A.Horizon.Guide.to.Dogs- dominating ur dogs-Barbara Woodhouse - YouTube


O...M....G!


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> * Now that is what i put it down to. I'm so pleased someone else has thought/said the same. Thank you.*


Wait. Are you asked a question already knowing the answer in order to test me or something?

Not cool....


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rona said:


> Dunbar was at a time when these were on our tv screens constantly
> 
> BBC.Woof.A.Horizon.Guide.to.Dogs- dominating ur dogs-Barbara Woodhouse - YouTube


*Oh how i remember those days.
*


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Wait. Are you asked a question already knowing the answer in order to test me or something?
> 
> Not cool....


*Not at all, that's not my style. If i want to say/ask something i will. I was just pleased that i wasn't wrong.*


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Oh? And how exactly would I get my dog in that situation? What are you guys implying; that I got a small animal, plonked it infront of my dog and said "go for it, eat your heart out"?
> 
> The only way I could keep my dog out of the situation where he is in the vicinity of a small animal is if I kept him locked up in the house all of the time.
> 
> ...


But what you are doing isn't working. Maybe it's time to try some other way 

I suggest you start another thread and just ask the question you require answering.
You don't have to take any notice of the replies you get if you don't want to, but if a point needs clarifying in your head, it's best to ask rather than biting back 

I'm a good one to talk..........I'm always biting  Maybe I need some training too :lol:


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

rona said:


> Dunbar was at a time when these were on our tv screens constantly
> 
> BBC.Woof.A.Horizon.Guide.to.Dogs- dominating ur dogs-Barbara Woodhouse - YouTube


I remember this well. I also remember thinking that if thats what I had to do to train my dogs, Id just not have trained dogs. 
I was lucky in that I discovered tracking which was 100% motivational (always has been - you cant jerk and hit a dog in to using his nose). So I was able to play around with training without having to be a jerk (literally) to my dogs.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *But my question is, why did he behave so differently towards my puppy?*


Probably because he recognised it as another of the same species, not prey.



ouesi said:


> Because it was a puppy  Puppies are not prey and most dogs, even if they are not good with puppies, will have a strong natural inhibition against harming puppies.
> In fact it is incredibly rare for a stable adult dog to harm a puppy in any way.


Ferdie adores puppies. He will let a puppy do absolutely anything to him, swing off his ears, swing off his tail, hump his head, jump on his back and he goes back for more. Diva tries to avoid them.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

I had the good fortune to learn what a quack CM was before even getting my first dog, so I was never ignorantly roped into the hype and thinking he was awesome.
I knew from before I even got Dresden that his methods were NOT ones I wanted to use on my dog.

And I have a "power breed", a doberman, a dog we're commonly told needs a 'firmer hand'.
And yes, I agree he does need a different approach to, say, a pug. He is a high drive, opinionated, head strong dog. But being firm doesn't mean being abusive, and being positive and gentle doesn't mean 'cuddling them when they've been bad!'

To me, I regard being firm as 'if I say something, I follow through with it'. 
To me, being firm is giving clear guidance, and not allowing them to be interpretted by the dog as 'suggestions'. 
If I ask for a sit, we wait until we get a sit. I won't just go 'meh, forget it' and move off; that would be being a walk over and wishy washy, and dobes don't respond well to wishy washy, inconsistant people.

I've never seen a need to intimidate or scare my dog into compliance. And that doesn't mean he has been an easy dog, or that my natural instincts as a primate haven't been to shout and get physical when Im really stressed out.....I think we all recognise that when we're very very stressed out or upset, we don't act rationally. 
But I have never let those instincts get the best of me. If he is really annoying me (rare now he's mostly over the teens) he goes for a time out, as do I, to allow us both to become more rational.

My dog is generally bullheaded, he doesn't get easily upset. You could shout at him if you wanted, and he'd see it as a huge game and get all excited. You could stand there and wave your arms about and scream, and he'd jump at you to play; he doesn't get affected by that sort of thing, he isn't a 'sensitive' dog when it comes to that, not at all. My aunts border collie bitch, if you so much as glare at her in anger, she will show appeasement behaviours because she is a sensitive dog and she picks up on these little things very quickly (and no, she's never been abused or hit or treated badly) But my dog isn't that sort of dog. He's a bulldozer, and hes pretty thick skinned.

But one time.....when he was about 10 months, he was in the peak of his teens, and was pushing me and pushing me, I'd given him a huge walk, fed him, played with him, spent ages amusing him, I'd given him everything he could possibly want, and I just wanted to get some cleaning done. And he was being a complete brat; nipping on me, grabbing the cleaning things and running off, barking constantly, un-doing any cleaning I got done right behind me, and it was really stressing me out. 
In the end, I did snap, and I gave it the old 'RIGHT! THATS IT! IN YOUR ROOM!' and marched him into his room and slammed the baby gate. 

And he scooted in there all low, whites of his eyes showing and just looked at me from his room with those woeful eyes.
And you have NO idea how terrible I felt. I didn't hit him, I didn't hurt him at all, I just lost it and shouted and he was not used to be behaving that way so it really threw him and worried him, and I never, ever want to do that again. 
It was horrible. I NEVER want to see my dog looking uncomfortable.

Of course a few minutes later I went back and we had a cuddle to make up, and he had already forgotten it and was back to being a hyper bouncy loop as if nothing had happened, but it stayed with me even if it didn't stay with him.
And I really realised how awful I felt using any kind of 'aggressive' or 'dominant' behaviour on him. 
I can't even begin to imagine how people can be physically aggressive with their dog; just shouting at mine made me feel awful. Because I should have put him in his room 10 minutes earlier, before my stress levels got that bad, and it was my fault (though to my credit, I was trying to get him more used to having 'house time' while I was working).

But given that, I just cannot imagine using any techniques on my dog that relied on making him scared of me or intimidated by me. I would hate that sort of relationship, and from what I see of CM, thats the relationship he advocates with a dog: a confrontational one rather than a co-operative one. 

I am soppy, yes. My dog IS my baby. I do let him sleep on the couch with me, and I do cuddle him and baby talk to him, and adore him like a child. 
But that doesn't mean I let him walk all over me. There IS a happy medium between 'raging, terrifying, yank and crank training' and 'soft, walk-over, no assertiveness' training. Neither are ideal.

Im not saying my dog is perfect. Who's dog is? 
And Im sure that there are harsher methods I could have used on him that might have sorted some of the behaviours that positive training is currently taking a long while with. But honestly, I'd rather spend 3 months teaching my dog something in a positive, happy, friendly way than spend 3 days teaching him it in an abusive, domineering, aggressive way. 
Im not saying the more 'dominance' based techniques never work, Im saying they don't work in a way I would want to teach them. I'd rather a dog do something for me because he genuinely understands the benefits to that behaviour rather than because he is scared of what will happen if he doesn't. 

Of course, a lot of people find the 'aggressive' methods of discipline more appealing because we're primates, and we're naturally aggressive animals when it comes down to it. When we're angry, we like to shout and stamp around and yell and make a big scene. And a lot of people get a little thrill out of feeling they are 'dominant' over a dog, particularly if its a big dog. 
I've heard before 'oh, he could kill me if he wanted, but he would never because he knows Im the boss!!' 
Totally about nothing more than an ego trip for the owner. 

I have no ego with my dog. I have no desire to have 'power' over him or be his 'alpha'. I see myself more in a parental role; a guardian, teacher, guide, and provider. Sometimes yes, I do take a firm tone of voice and yes, dogs do sometimes need to realise they've crossed a line, particularly when you have a very intelligent, head strong breed with a mind of their own. But this, in my mind, should be done as it would be with a child; this is how it is going to be, its not personal, no hard feelings, we're still friends, but this is the way we do things here and your way isn't acceptable Im afraid.

So far, Im pretty happy with how my dog has turned out. I think for a first time owner with what is arguably a 'hard' breed, I've done well using majority positive methods. I've never had to hit him, use a choke, kick him, whack him, or terrify him to get results.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

On a side note, I think my experience with rats before getting a dog helped a lot.

Unlike dogs, they ARE a species that live in a dominance hierarchy, very much so. They do have an alpha, and as an owner, you are expected to be it.

But rats don't respond to shouting....and they don't respond to physical reprimand. 
Shouting at a rat will not make it realise you're angry: they will not associate the noise you're making with what they're doing. At best, it will be an interupter, and they'll go right back to their behaviour a few seconds later.

You also can't 'hit' or hurt a rat to teach them anything. 
If my rat is being a little bugger, simply picking him up and placing him on my lap, or somewhere else he didn't intend to be, shows I am alpha, because it shows Im stronger and I make the decisions. No shouting or hurting or intimidation needed whatsoever. 

There used to be a 'thing' in rat communities about flipping a dominant rat onto its back, just like the alpha roll with dogs. But thats been discounted now as about as useful as it is in dogs: ie, if the animal really is wound up, you'll just get yourself bitten, or you'll scare the animal because it has no idea what you're doing.

I think 14 years of this before even getting a dog put me in a mind set of 'no shouting, no yanking, no physical reprimand' and it just kinda came more naturally.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> *I of course don't agree with everything Cesar does or says BUT I do believe that dogs do test you and push you, like children, to see how far they can go, to see what they can get away with and people need to let them know what is acceptable and what is not... But I'm sure most of you will disagree with that... lol. Yeah, good luck with getting your dogs to respect you and be obedient then if all people wanna do is cuddle them even when they are naughty.
> 
> Sorry if this offends anyone but I have to speak my mind!*
> 
> ...


So Twiggy. If a person pokes their dog to get it's attention, when that dog is used to being poked in a play situation, would you class that as harsh handling.

This seems to be something that CM does that people get irate about but don't seem to be able to entertain the possibility that it is possible not to traumatize your dog by doing this 

It's a method I've used on all my dogs to get their attention (with the end of a stick, my toe or just my hand) when out in the field and it's not advisable to make a noise.
That's a poke for attention, not punishment.

I personally wouldn't call what CM does as a poke..more a jab


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

rona said:


> So Twiggy. If a person pokes their dog to get it's attention, when that dog is used to being poked in a play situation, would you class that as harsh handling.
> 
> This seems to be something that CM does that people get irate about but don't seem to be able to entertain the possibility that it is possible not to traumatize your dog by doing this
> 
> ...


Its not for us to decide if its punishment or not. Its always the dog who decides.

I have a dog who just stuck his head in a cardboard box and I kicked the box (with his head in it), made it rattle then picked it up and hit him with it. He thought it was awesome and hes now happy as a clam killing the box. 
My friends sighthound would be utterly horrified if I did that to her and it probably would take me months to undo the damage to our relationship.

So yes, despite your condescending comment, some dogs ARE sensitive enough to be completely traumatized by handing that is inappropriate to that dog.

I dont care if what CM is doing is a poke, a jab, an attention getter... what I look at is the dog and what the dog is saying to me with their eyes and their body language about how they feel about the touch. And what I see the dogs saying is nothing good. Sure, some dogs dont care, or are too aroused by the environment to react much at all to his touch. But for all of those dogs there are just as many who respond to his touch by either cowering or biting.

Personally, if my handling of a dog led to the dog avoiding or biting me, I would consider that I was doing something very wrong and would look to do something different.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

rona said:


> So Twiggy. If a person pokes their dog to get it's attention, when that dog is used to being poked in a play situation, would you class that as harsh handling.
> 
> This seems to be something that CM does that people get irate about but don't seem to be able to entertain the possibility that it is possible not to traumatize your dog by doing this
> 
> ...


It's what that poking leads too, the clip I posted shows a good example. CM hits the dog around the head before she bites...that is not a "poke" for attention.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> It's what that poking leads too, the clip I posted shows a good example. CM hits the dog around the head before she bites...that is not a "poke" for attention.


That's CM though not me 
I've been lambasted on here for poking my dog because it's an aversive  

When I do it my dogs get excited or attentive because they know there's something interesting around and that they need to pay attention and "hopefully" stay close  Sometimes it has made them too interested and they have frightened away the "prey" by trying to get a better look


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Its not for us to decide if its punishment or not. Its always the dog who decides.
> 
> I have a dog who just stuck his head in a cardboard box and I kicked the box (with his head in it), made it rattle then picked it up and hit him with it. He thought it was awesome and hes now happy as a clam killing the box.
> My friends sighthound would be utterly horrified if I did that to her and it probably would take me months to undo the damage to our relationship.
> ...


This. It is not up to me to decide what is punishing or rewarding to my dog, it is HIM who decides that. And given the way the dogs on CMs show react to it that is NOT a poke for attention and is certainly not read as such by the dogs. It's not just the action itself they read, it's the intent behind it imo. I know I could poke Rupert in the neck in play and he'd react with play behaviour. But if he thought I was angry with him and I reached for him (not to poke him, just reached to touch him) he would cower and screw his eyes shut. I touch Spen on the shoulder or hip to get his attention at times. It is not a poke though, I do it the same way I'd touch hubby to get his attention if he were engrossed in a game or something. I get the same sort of response from him as I do hubby too. And it's not a punch in the face or a bite


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

rona said:


> That's CM though not me
> I've been lambasted on here for poking my dog because it's an aversive
> 
> When I do it my dogs get excited or attentive because they know there's something interesting around and that they need to pay attention and "hopefully" stay close  Sometimes it has made them too interested and they have frightened away the "prey" by trying to get a better look


Well you haven't been lambasted by me 
As ouesi pointed out, the dog chooses what is adversive, not us. If your dogs are happy to have a poke for attention then that is nothing to do with me, especially going by your posts that your dogs do not see your poke as an adversive


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

rona said:


> That's CM though not me
> * I've been lambasted on here for poking my dog because it's an aversive*


No.... Again, its the dog who decides what is aversive. Your dogs response to the poke is what determines if the poke is aversive or not.

I think the negative reactions you got had far more to do with how you treat fellow posters than how you treat your dogs.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rona said:


> That's CM though not me
> I've been lambasted on here for poking my dog because it's an aversive
> 
> When I do it my dogs get excited or attentive because they know there's something interesting around and that they need to pay attention and "hopefully" stay close  Sometimes it has made them too interested and they have frightened away the "prey" by trying to get a better look


Perhaps you should be a little less ambiguous when posting about it then  I've seen you post things along the lines of "well I do this" when it's been brought up before and only expanding on it after people have jumped on you. When in fact if you explained what you did in the first place chances are you would not have been jumped on.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> This. It is not up to me to decide what is punishing or rewarding to my dog, it is HIM who decides that. And given the way the dogs on CMs show react to it that is NOT a poke for attention and is certainly not read as such by the dogs. It's not just the action itself they read, it's the intent behind it imo. I know I could poke Rupert in the neck in play and he'd react with play behaviour. But if he thought I was angry with him and I reached for him (not to poke him, just reached to touch him) he would cower and screw his eyes shut. I touch Spen on the shoulder or hip to get his attention at times. It is not a poke though, I do it the same way I'd touch hubby to get his attention if he were engrossed in a game or something. I get the same sort of response from him as I do hubby too. And it's not a punch in the face or a bite


Alfie used to flinch occassionally, he also sometimes avoided me when I recalled him. He'd come towards me but stay just out of reach.
This only happened in the first few months of being with me and I can only assume that he's had a few swipes in his previous home.

I could pretend to hit him around the face with a glove or similar now and all he's do is try and grab it to rag it. No flinch at all, though he does shut his eyes occassionally.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Perhaps you should be a little less ambiguous when posting about it then  I've seen you post things along the lines of "well I do this" when it's been brought up before and only expanding on it after people have jumped on you. When in fact if you explained what you did in the first place chances are you would not have been jumped on.


It's only what happens with other posters. No one asks them to expand or explain just lays into them......funny that....not allowed with dogs :ciappa:

Oh I'm bad!!


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

People would be shocked if they saw how me and Dresden play. We roll around, slap, grab, shake, all sorts of things, and the rougher it is, the more he loves it.

But thats my dog, and I know he likes that, and I know he knows it is play.
There are some dogs that would be mortified if that was done to them! 
So yes, it very much does depend on the dog.
If I poked dresden, depending on his mood, he'd either not even notice, or think it was an invitation for play.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

rona said:


> It's only what happens with other posters. *No one asks them to expand or explain* just lays into them......funny that....not allowed with dogs :ciappa:
> 
> Oh I'm bad!!


No one?

I seem to recall asking you to clarify posts on many an occasion along with several other posters. All I can figure is you have us all on ignore. 

I dont always achieve it, but I definitely strive to get a clear picture before I respond, and when I do respond I try to be coherent and helpful. I think if you were to check my posting history, thats exactly what you will find.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> Back on the subject :lol: ... As for how important it is that a method "works"....
> 
> Personally I do NOT believe the end always justifies the means, especially when there are many more humane methods available - but do CM's methods even actually work?
> 
> ...


Click! :thumbup: Excellent summary of the overall fallacy of his outdated beliefs, 
& the heavy-handed application of those hoary beliefs by He Whose Brand is Oxymoronic. :yesnod: 
Rep for U!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> ...if it is just a noise, then why does my dog stop what he is doing when he is doing something naughty
> and I tell him "no"? Because it's not the word that counts but your tone of voice.
> *My dog always knows when he's done wrong* and I don't have to shout at or bully him,
> as you all obviously think I do.
> ...


A number of folks already pointed out that if 'No' was such a perfect cure-all, Ur dog wouldn't shift
his bed to suit himself [how dare he, i mean really, the sheer gall of that!...]. The first time U'd seen
the bed out of place, announced 'No' firmly, & dragged it back where it belonged, he'd have quit - cold.
Right?

Instead, U've tried to punish him by a series of escalating but entirely disconnected aversive events:
he moved the bed, he's sent outdoors - even further from the family.
When the weather's too nice to evict him outdoors, he's shut in the garage.
His meal is delayed - or he gets no [breakfast / dinner] that day, depending on when he sinned.

What *connection* in time, or as a direct consequence, do any of those punishments have to his crime?
Zilch. U weren't there when he moved the bed; it could have been hours ago, or minutes. In either case,
there's NO WAY for the dog to connect 'move the bed' with 'dumped outside', or any of the others.


MerlinsMum said:


> "NO" is merely an interruptor. It means nothing to the dog. You could say "Ah-ah!" or "Oops!" or "Belgium!"
> it doesn't matter what the word is... what matters is the context it is used in, and most especially
> *what happens afterward*.


This is the *key:* Behavior is driven by consequences.
Actions that result in worthwhile results persist - they happen again.
Actions that don't, *unless they are innately rewarding*,* fade away.

Eliminate the rewarding consequence, & the action starves away over time.

* Innately-rewarding behaviors are also called self-rewarding: they need no outside reinforcement to persist.
Many innately-rewarding behaviors can become compulsive - at which point, they're beyond conscious control.
Management to prevent unwanted behaviors such as bolting out open doors is just as crucial to prevent the
development of habitual self-rewarding behaviors --- such as nuisance barking in vocal breeds / individuals.


ouesi said:


> I dont know about your specific dog, Ive never laid eyes on him. But generally "no" is something dogs learn
> to associate with an unpleasant consequence, so the "no" simply becomes a predictor of something unpleasant.
> 
> As for tone of voice... Eh... dogs have amazing hearing. They can hear a crust of bread fall on the carpet
> ...


:thumbup1:
Teaching *what we want* in a given context is far-more efficient than going individually down
a virtually-infinite list of all the possible behaviors WE DON'T WANT in a given context.








_"No... not that... Nor that, either... Heavens, *no* - ...meh, not really... nope..."_
.
.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> *My dog always knows when he's done wrong* and I don't have to shout at or bully him, as you all obviously think I do.


Dogs do not know right from wrong, and they also do not express guilt.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> I have never watched a CM video, never read one of his books - _ presume he has written books? -
> so can't really comment on his methods, but over the years there have been many that have come and gone
> with various fashion fads re training dogs.
> 
> ...


_
A few facts to counter the marshmallow general remarks:
One:
Mr Millan's *videos* are free to view on UTube, as edited by National-Geographic Channel in their
original broadcasts, & BTW, Mr Millan has total oversight of the editing & finished formats: *nothing*
that he doesn't want in finished footage, appears in an episode; it's all pre-approved.

There's no reason not to view his methods, if U want to know whereof U speak - but allow me 
to suggest U watch each one *muted* first, carefully observing the dog's body-language.
This avoids the mood-setting music, the voice-overs, etc, which - as humans default to spoken words
when the visual info conflicts with the aural-input -- should help clarify the DOG's emotional state.
[If U aren't fluent in dog body-language, see the sticky on the topic for videos, photos, etc.]

Two:
Mr Millan's articles are easily obtained, if U don't want to spend $$ on books.
There are multiple websites that carry them, including his *Facebook* pages.

Three:
Articles by Mr Millan's critics are also readily available - among the widely-known, DVM Dodman
[director of Behavioral Medicine, Tufts Univ. Vet-college], vet-behaviorist Karen Overall, 
co-founder of Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research | Vol 8, Iss 6, Pgs A1-A6, 409-490, (November?December, 2013) | ScienceDirect.com , Jean Donaldson, 
senior instructor of the now-defunct *San Fransisco SPCA trainers' academy*, 
recently-reborn as an on-line curriculum: The Academy for Dog Trainers - Professional pet dog training

IOW, it's not just a bunch of bleeding-heart amateurs who can't bear to see "real training" or "discipline".
Highly-regarded professionals warn of the serious risks attached to his methods.

Four: re *"fads in training"*
Barbara Woodhouse, the 1980s British TV-trainer, would recognize many of Mr Millan's techniques & tools.
Ms Woodhouse became a dog-breeder & operated a boarding kennel from the 1930s to the 1960s.
Barbara Woodhouse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To say that our knowledge of dogs, their behavior & cognition hasn't changed in the past 60 years 
is an utter falsehood; we've learned more about dogs since 1970 than we knew in toto from the time
we began cohabiting with dogs some 10,000 years ago *until* 1970, but U'd never know it, 
listening to CM/DW. He claims everything he knows his granddad taught him as a kid in rural Mexico,
& i believe him. Among the few books Mr Millan has read are Koehler [1962] - the same era as his grandsire.

Five: "Made lots of money" = Knowledgeable source?
How many celebrities can U name who can't be relied upon to feed the cat regularly, yet they earn
incredible sums of money for public appearances?... 
Mr Millan had the backing of Hollywood stars when he began; his first client, wife of a rock-band star,
*hired & paid for a English-language coach* because he knew so little English, & his accent was
so impenetrable she couldn't understand what little he could say. She referred him to others... & so on.
He hired an agent - who sued him for allegedly using material that he, the agent, prepared for Millan
when Mr Millan sold himself to natl-Geo - without paying the agent [settled out of court, gag-order].

His *agent* BTW came up with the oxymoronic "whisperer" brand.  Talk about a misnomer -
it's a given that his agent may be a great personal-rep, but he doesn't know diddly about dogs.

Six: "Not here to defend himself"? *Ha!* 
Mr Millan has a well-known habit of threatening critics with lawsuits - with a stable of lawyers on retainer,
it's *their* job to police the defense of his, harrrumph!, reputation.

When this non-profit umbrella organization of many national organizations was founded
Welfare in Dog Training

Mr Millan's pet-lawyers sent multiple threats of civil action to various nonprofits, mostly in the USA,
who operate on donations, have no warchest for any legal defense, even from a baseless frivolous lawsuit - 
& they promptly withdrew as signatories. :nonod: Easy censorship._


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

If I poked Mavis , she would spin round , thinking it's play time  poke Chester in the same manner and it's entirely different. 

Mavis likes a good rough play , well in fact it's more of a boxing session with the OH  Chester on the other hand just cannot cope with it , so we just don't do it.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> This is the *key:* Behavior is driven by consequences.
> Actions that result in worthwhile results persist - they happen again.
> Actions that don't, *unless they are innately rewarding*,* fade away.
> 
> ...


Yup...
To quote Jean Donaldson, there is no free lunch in animal training. All properly functioning organisms must be motivated in order to get them to do what we want. You can motivate to avoid things or you can motivate to gain things, but there is no escaping the fact that effective training and b-mod is a function of consequences for behavior.

To quote Donaldson again, this notion that dogs have this intrinsic will to please us and know when theyve done wrong, _corrodes the training process every step of the way. As soon as one buys the idea that the only necessary task in training is making ones wishes clear to the dog because he naturally just wants to please us, legions of dogs are doomed to be labeled some version of stubborn, stupid, or dominant, when they are behaving exactly the way a properly functioning living organism should._"


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

ouesi said:


> To quote Donaldson again, this notion that dogs have this intrinsic will to please us and know when they've done wrong, "_corrodes the training process every step of the way. As soon as one buys the idea that the only necessary task in training is making one's wishes clear to the dog because he naturally just wants to please us, legions of dogs are doomed to be labeled some version of stubborn, stupid, or dominant, when they are behaving exactly the way a properly functioning living organism should._"


As a child, were you ever "put on the naughty step" and told to "think about what you'd done wrong" ?

Were there times when you had absolutely NO idea what you had done wrong? And nobody had explained it? And you sat, and sat, and sat, and still couldn't understand what you'd done wrong? (Or maybe you knew what you'd done, but couldn't work out _why_ it was wrong? And nobody bothered to explain it to you?)

This is the position our dogs are in. And yes, I remember all too clearly being in that awful confused state, which my parents had put me in - because for some reason I was meant to focus on the "bad" thing and have some magical insight into my own behaviour - which as a 6 year old, I very likely didn't have (and clearly didn't, or the memory wouldn't have stayed with me so long).

If only they'd made as much fuss when I did something _*RIGHT*_, I'd have known what I was *meant* to do (and done it), and wouldn't still remember those awful confused times some 45 years later!

Ouesi - Patricia McConnell also explained the guilt/wrong thing extremely well in her seminar.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> CM has a huge following and has made a lot of money from his works.........so, law of averages would say he has to have some good points in there and maybe the best way forwards instead of putting down somebody not here to defend himself would be take the rough with the smooth.so, whatever bits of whatever training works for you and your dog then use it.


By that logic, I should be taking advice from the Kardashians over the Dalai Lama! Just because someone makes an obscene amount of money doesnt mean they know what theyre talking about 

Does CM have some valid points? Sure, I guess so... I mean some of his sayings have about as much insight as make sure you feed and water your dog every day, but since theyre cloaked in such a pretty flashy well-orchestrated package, people glom on to them like theyre these amazing nuggets of wisdom that will change dog ownership forever.

Come to think of it, maybe I should start telling people that if they make sure their kids spend more time outside, less time in front of a screen, more time sleeping and eating whole foods, less processed theyll see a difference in behavior. Look at me! Im a parenting guru!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> By that logic, I should be taking advice from the Kardashians over the Dalai Lama! Just because someone
> makes an obscene amount of money doesnt mean they know what theyre talking about
> 
> Does CM have some valid points? Sure, I guess so...
> ...


_ooh, ooh, ooh... I see a new SuperNanny franchise!

If i ghost-write some articles & reviews for NYX, Parenting magazine, & some influential websites,
can i have 10 shares of stock when U go public? _
.
.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> _ooh, ooh, ooh... I see a new SuperNanny franchise!
> 
> If i ghost-write some articles & reviews for NYX, Parenting magazine, & some influential websites,
> can i have 10 shares of stock when U go public? _
> ...


Sure! All we need now is some teeth veneers and a big shot hollywood producer


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Sure! All we need now is some teeth veneers and a big shot hollywood producer


let's see - 
agent, wardrobe, book tour - we'll need publicity shots for the book-tour...
NYX quarter-page ad in the _Lifestyles_ section, celebrity clients...
we need at least 3 big-names for testimonials... a "name" pediatrician to partner with - hmm.

How do U feel about Dr Mandell?
Meet Us - Pediatric Associates of Greater Salem | Salem, Massachusetts | healthcare needs of children and adolescents | Pedaitrics | Pediatricians

He's photogenic, was a Chief Rez, has a solid background & curb-appeal.
The ballroom-dancing is a nice personal bit.

Maybe a book-launch in June?...


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> As entrenched in to pack leadership and dominance baloney as LeaderOfThePack appears to be, in all fairness, the poor gal is probably completely overwhelmed at this point. Im not at all surprised she feels the need to lash out a bit.
> 
> LeaderOfThePack, take a breather, enjoy the holidays, and then go back and read some of the great posts on this thread, give them time to settle and digest, then read again. Change is hard and it takes time. Be fair to yourself and the information being presented and give it the time it needs.


You are right there, I am overwhelmed indeed! Overwhelmed at how many people, not all of course, have responded to my problem acting like they know the answer but won't tell me by saying "I would not have let my dog get into that situation in the first place, oh I'm a saint, I'm so great" haha. I just felt a bit like people were blaming me when I am not to blame as I just didn't know how to get my dog to stop in his tracks when he spotted an animal so... yeah... he does do recall at any other time except for when he is prey mode... I just need to know how to get him to listen to me at all times, no matter what, except for if he needed to stop in his tracks if he needed to urinate or defecate.

I do thank you all for your kind advice and links to information about other dog trainers and things and I will take a look at them 

Sorry if I acted like a brat though, I Some times feel as if people are ganging up on me


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your responses and I will check them all when I get back online in the new year  Have a merry christmas


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Shadowrat said:


> People would be shocked if they saw how me and Dresden play. We roll around, slap, grab, shake, all sorts of things, and the rougher it is, the more he loves it.
> 
> But thats my dog, and I know he likes that, and I know he knows it is play.
> There are some dogs that would be mortified if that was done to them!
> ...





Sarah1983 said:


> This. It is not up to me to decide what is punishing or rewarding to my dog, it is HIM who decides that.


But if you've taken on a dog where everything is aversive, it's down to you to show it that most things aren't.
Alfie could still be moving away from my touch, flinching at sudden movements and avoiding being caught at the end of walks had I not shown him differently.
Even one of my walk dogs which had been totally traumatised to the point of a quivering wreck soon responded to me. She was so suspicious of being handed treats because she's obviously fallen for that one before and been beaten 

Showing a dog may confuse them for a short while but it doesn't have to traumatise them



paddyjulie said:


> If I poked Mavis , she would spin round , thinking it's play time  poke Chester in the same manner and it's entirely different.
> 
> Mavis likes a good rough play , well in fact it's more of a boxing session with the OH  Chester on the other hand just cannot cope with it , so we just don't do it.


I still believe that sometimes it's out of our hands unfortunately  Breeding and certain situations can take things out of the owners hands or at least make it extremely difficult. Particularly if you have a busy life besides your dog


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> By that logic, I should be taking advice from the Kardashians over the Dalai Lama! Just because someone makes an obscene amount of money doesnt mean they know what theyre talking about
> 
> Does CM have some valid points? Sure, I guess so... I mean some of his sayings have about as much insight as make sure you feed and water your dog every day, but since theyre cloaked in such a pretty flashy well-orchestrated package, people glom on to them like theyre these amazing nuggets of wisdom that will change dog ownership forever.
> 
> Come to think of it, maybe I should start telling people that if they make sure their kids spend more time outside, less time in front of a screen, more time sleeping and eating whole foods, less processed theyll see a difference in behavior. Look at me! Im a parenting guru!!


good for you being a parenting guru...maybe if you are very lucky someone will come along and start bad mouthing you for your"gentle parenting" and tell you how wrong that is......I hope you make plenty money at guru style stuff.

and its not my logic......but CM has plenty followers, plus, if you bothered to read rather than pick bits out of what I posted, I already said I never read anything he wrote or watched his stuff.and am not a follower.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

lilythepink said:


> good for you being a parenting guru...maybe if you are very lucky someone will come along and start bad mouthing you for your"gentle parenting" and tell you how wrong that is......I hope you make plenty money at guru style stuff.
> 
> and its not my logic......but CM has plenty followers, plus, if you bothered to read rather than pick bits out of what I posted, I already said I never read anything he wrote or watched his stuff.and am not a follower.


Hitler had plenty of followers; Saddam Hussein had plenty of followers; Gee, even the White Supremacists have plenty of followers. Does that mean that the law of averages says they must be knowledgeable?

Quantity does not mean quality.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rona said:


> But if you've taken on a dog where everything is aversive, it's down to you to show it that most things aren't.
> Alfie could still be moving away from my touch, flinching at sudden movements and avoiding being caught at the end of walks had I not shown him differently.
> Even one of my walk dogs which had been totally traumatised to the point of a quivering wreck soon responded to me. She was so suspicious of being handed treats because she's obviously fallen for that one before and been beaten
> 
> Showing a dog may confuse them for a short while but it doesn't have to traumatise them


I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make Rona  Teaching a dog that something isn't aversive is a completely different matter to choosing to use aversives to get them to do what you want. Rupert came to me terrified of pretty much anything you can name, it was that that actually pushed me to make the change from CM type methods to positive methods. And yes, I did teach him that a lot of the things he was frightened of were not actually scary at all. But at the end of the day it was still him who decided whether or not something was aversive. And some things were no matter what work I put in with him. The dishes being washed for one, that was guaranteed to send him into hiding no matter what.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make Rona  Teaching a dog that something isn't aversive is a completely different matter to choosing to use aversives to get them to do what you want. Rupert came to me terrified of pretty much anything you can name, it was that that actually pushed me to make the change from CM type methods to positive methods. And yes, I did teach him that a lot of the things he was frightened of were not actually scary at all. But at the end of the day it was still him who decided whether or not something was aversive. And some things were no matter what work I put in with him. The dishes being washed for one, that was guaranteed to send him into hiding no matter what.


Just that because one dog reacts badly to something, it doesn't follow that all will.
CM is just a barbaric prick, but some of the things he does that are not used in the form he uses them are or don't have to be traumatic to dogs. Therefore I don't think people should be vilified for using them as long as they aren't linked to some false concept of dominance or punishment, both human and canine.

What I'm saying is you have to work with the dog you have.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> good for you being a parenting guru...maybe if you are very lucky someone will come along and start bad mouthing you for your"gentle parenting" and tell you how wrong that is......I hope you make plenty money at guru style stuff.
> 
> and its not my logic......but CM has plenty followers, plus, if you bothered to read rather than pick bits out of what I posted, *I already said I never read anything he wrote or watched his stuff.and am not a follower*.


Maybe that would have been advisable before trying to defend someone 

Plenty of followers does not equate to anything other than they are good at convincing people that they are right...
Just because something works (That's debatable considering the amount of clients dogs CM now has running in his "pack" due to either making the dogs worse or just plain convincing the owners that their dog is unfixable (wouldn't want a mere mortal of a trainer come in and help solve issues the jumped up Mexican can't fix now would we.....)) doesn't mean it is the only/best way to approach things...

Seriously, you think this man needs defending???

[youtube_browser]Qh9YOyM2TAk[/youtube_browser]
Now the dog had been "worked" on for around an hour before this video starts, they try a prong collar at first but the dog gets too wound up so the clever "trainer" thinks a slip lead is the way to go.....Oh and after seeing this the rescue where so disgusted that Shadow was taken back as soon as they could...Oh and he still wasn't "fixed after this as he went on to bite his owner when she tried to discipline him the CM way for going in her veg patch....

There is a reason why there are "do not try at home" warnings all over his programs


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> good for you being a parenting guru...maybe if you are very lucky someone will come along and start bad mouthing you for your"gentle parenting" and tell you how wrong that is......I hope you make plenty money at guru style stuff.
> 
> *and its not my logic.*.....but CM has plenty followers, plus, if you bothered to read rather than pick bits out of what I posted, I already said I never read anything he wrote or watched his stuff.and am not a follower.





newfiesmum said:


> Hitler had plenty of followers; Saddam Hussein had plenty of followers; Gee, even the White Supremacists have plenty of followers. Does that mean that the law of averages says they must be knowledgeable?
> 
> Quantity does not mean quality.


lilythepink did say it wasn't her logic


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> good for you being a parenting guru...maybe if you are very lucky someone will come along and start bad mouthing you for your"gentle parenting" and tell you how wrong that is......I hope you make plenty money at guru style stuff.
> 
> and its not my logic......but CM has plenty followers, plus, if you bothered to read rather than pick bits out of what I posted, I already said I never read anything he wrote or watched his stuff.and am not a follower.


I must be very lucky then 
I get bad mouthed plenty for my choices in dog training (and parenting). Most of the time its simply a function of cognitive dissonance and those who are personally offended by how I choose to train deserve my compassion, not my defensiveness.


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2013)

rona said:


> Just that because one dog reacts badly to something, it doesn't follow that all will.


Right. Thats kind of the point of saying the dog decides what is aversive.



rona said:


> CM is just a barbaric prick, but some of the things he does that are not used in the form he uses them are or don't have to be traumatic to dogs. Therefore I don't think people should be vilified for using them as long as they aren't linked to some false concept of dominance or punishment, both human and canine.
> 
> *What I'm saying is you have to work with the dog you have.*


Again, thats exactly what I and others are saying. The DOG decides what is punishing. *This* dog is fine with being attacked with a box, *this* dog would find that horrifying. So you work with each dog differently depending on that individual dogs needs. You watch the dog, you LISTEN to what the dog is telling you, and you let the dog tell you what is needed.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rona said:


> Just that because one dog reacts badly to something, it doesn't follow that all will.
> CM is just a barbaric prick, but some of the things he does that are not used in the form he uses them are or don't have to be traumatic to dogs. Therefore I don't think people should be vilified for using them as long as they aren't linked to some false concept of dominance or punishment, both human and canine.
> 
> What I'm saying is you have to work with the dog you have.


Nobody has said that all dogs will react the same way to something though. And work with the dog you have is pretty much exactly what we mean when we say it's the dog who decides what is aversive or rewarding. And it doesn't really matter what the humans intention is, if they think they're rewarding the dog and the dog actually finds what they're doing aversive then it's a problem. From a training standpoint and a relationship one. If I hugged Spen every time he sat when asked he'd soon become very reluctant to sit when asked since he is uncomfortable with being hugged. It would likely spill over into other things too.

Should people be vilified for slapping, pushing, prodding their dogs in play? As long as the dog genuinely sees it as fun then no. If it's distressing the dog however then it needs to be stopped. If the owner cares and just doesn't realise their dog is not happy with it then no, they don't need to be vilified, just educated. However those who think the dog should just "man up, it's only a bit of fun" (and yes, there's plenty of them around sadly) are another matter. Same with other things. I've been slated before for saying I tapped my dog on the shoulder to get his attention, depending on the individual dog, how hard you tap, the history behind it etc it could well be an aversive. Or it could simply be a way of getting the dogs attention. Nobody assumes I'm jamming stiffened fingers hard into my hubbys shoulder and causing pain to get his attention yet that conclusion was exactly what people jumped to when I said I did it to Rupert.

And as I've said before, just saying "oh I do that to my dog" when things like poking the dog as punishment is brought up when in fact you use it in a completely different way is bound to get you some not particularly nice reactions


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Nobody has said that all dogs will react the same way to something though. And work with the dog you have is pretty much exactly what we mean when we say it's the dog who decides what is aversive or rewarding. Quite, not people on here And it doesn't really matter what the humans intention is, if they think they're rewarding the dog and the dog actually finds what they're doing aversive then it's a problem. How do you know unless you are there? From a training standpoint and a relationship one. If I hugged Spen every time he sat when asked he'd soon become very reluctant to sit when asked since he is uncomfortable with being hugged. It would likely spill over into other things too. Same as Alfie. He's much rather a prod than a cuddle
> 
> Should people be vilified for slapping, pushing, prodding their dogs in play? As long as the dog genuinely sees it as fun then no. If it's distressing the dog however then it needs to be stopped. But how do people know that from a computer screen? If the owner cares and just doesn't realise their dog is not happy with it then no, they don't need to be vilified, just educated. However those who think the dog should just "man up, it's only a bit of fun" (and yes, there's plenty of them around sadly) are another matter. Surely it's better to at least try and educate these people too before slating them? Often that doesn't happen here Same with other things. I've been slated before for saying I tapped my dog on the shoulder to get his attention, depending on the individual dog, how hard you tap, the history behind it etc it could well be an aversive.Again, you cannot judge from a computer screen Or it could simply be a way of getting the dogs attention. Nobody assumes I'm jamming stiffened fingers hard into my hubbys shoulder and causing pain to get his attention yet that conclusion was exactly what people jumped to when I said I did it to Rupert.
> So you know what I'm on about
> ...


It was about training that I said that and I never once said it was used as punishment. Play is part of training as far as I'm concerned. May not be formal training but it's still strengthening that bond and acquiring understanding on both sides. Still a lot of people assume don't they?


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> It was about training that I said that and I never once said it was used as punishment. Play is part of training as far as I'm concerned. May not be formal training but it's still strengthening that bond and acquiring understanding on both sides. Still a lot of people assume don't they?


I think you get negative reaction to your posts sometimes because you appear to intentionally word them to get a rise out of people, who don't see through your constant trap laying.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> I think you get negative reaction to your posts sometimes because it's you appear to intentionally word them to get a rise out of people who don't see through your constant trap laying.


This. I have to say it often seems like you're simply trying to get a rise out of people rather than genuinely wanting to discuss or learn anything.

But on the off chance you're not..well I certainly can't speak for everyone on here but I try to be civil to people and explain rather than simply jump all over them. That tends to simply get backs up and make people disinclined to listen. However, I'm human and I'm sure it's happened from time to time.

All we have to go by are words on a computer screen though and if someone says they're jabbing their dog in the neck when it does wrong then it's pretty logical to come to the conclusion that they're meaning that jab in the neck as a punishment. They certainly wouldn't be wanting to reward the dog with play or affection for doing wrong would they? And there's a damn good chance the dog isn't happy with the jab in the neck combined with the body language that will be accompanying it when it's being meant as punishment.

I don't think anyone on here has said it's up to them to decide what is rewarding or punishing, in fact I'm sure many of us have been saying exactly the opposite


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

I too have not had time to read every single reply to this thread but got the gist after a few pages 

Just to throw in my two penneth.....I have unread books by CM, JF etc. on my bookshelf that remain unread since we got Finn six months ago.....not due to lack of interest or intention but because the little bugger has challenged us and worn us out on every level since he arrived.

I have posted a few times on here with a couple of issues regarding Finn and his training and settling in to our family and you have to accept on forums such as this you will get a variety of strong opinions and often conflicting views.....much of it is very helpful but sometimes it can confuse you because your dog is individual and won't always respond exactly as hoped.

I was overthinking everything and whilst there are many people who have devoted time and effort to understanding dog behaviour in different situations I just wanted to do the best by my pup and help him become a trusted (ok, ok, as much as a dog ever can be!) part of our family.

I accept puppy and dog training will be very different as older dogs will have experienced situations that make them react in certain ways which is why we chose a puppy.

The point to my post, and remember I am replying to the original post here, is that once I focused on my dog and his personality rather than the black and white rules in any one book I started to see results.....we now have a gorgeous pup who has is seven months old and settling down well....of course he has days when he is more challenging but he no longer does any of the stuff that worried me when he was younger and we have all relaxed and bonded well so it's working for us (fwiw many of the replies on here over the last few months told me to enjoy my dog and stress less and that was the best advice ever!)

Finnboy :thumbsup:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> I too have not had time to read every single reply to this thread but got the gist after a few pages
> 
> Just to throw in my two penneth.....I have unread books by CM, JF etc. on my bookshelf that remain unread since we got Finn six months ago.....not due to lack of interest or intention but because the little bugger has challenged us and worn us out on every level since he arrived.
> 
> ...


I am very glad that you found some members helpful and that your pup is doing well, but please remember: dogs do not challenge us.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Finnboy said:


> I too have not had time to read every single reply to this thread but got the gist after a few pages
> 
> Just to throw in my two penneth.....I have unread books by CM, JF etc. on my bookshelf that remain unread since we got Finn six months ago.....not due to lack of interest or intention but because the little bugger has challenged us and worn us out on every level since he arrived.
> 
> ...


You've said in this one sentence what I have been trying to convey for months :thumbup::thumbup:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I am very glad that you found some members helpful and that your pup is doing well, but please remember: dogs do not challenge us.


I read that different to you again here. I read it as challenging behaviour not that the dog was actually challenging the poster


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

rona said:


> I read that different to you again here. I read it as challenging behaviour not that the dog was actually challenging the poster


*the little bugger has challenged us * were the precise words I picked up on.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I am very glad that you found some members helpful and that your pup is doing well, but please remember: *dogs do not challenge us*.


What, never? Rather a blanket statement I think.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Ok then let me clarify.....I felt challenged the time he growled at the kids when they walked past him chewing his toy, I felt challenged after months of being woken to relentless barking at 4.30am, I feel challenged to play every time he bows down on his front paws with a glint in his eye and a rugger in his mouth wanting to play, I feel challenged every time he locks eyes with me across a field and smiles as he runs straight towards the very people dogs I am trying to call him back from, I feel challenged every time his bulking weight rips my arm sockets out as I am trying to teach him lead control walking past another boisterous pup......

All of the above are challenges in some way, some good fun challenges in play or fields and some that I felt needed sorting such as the growling and the barking (both of which I have sorted without Caesar or Jan and with some good help from here....and some advice politely not taken too).

I guess this just demonstrates the point I am making about forums and being taken literally...... I would stand firm in my comment that puppies are challenging on very many levels but I am loving the dog he is developing into and enjoying every minute of him (now!).


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Thinking about the non-violent aspects of CM and his theories and methods; these are yet more of my objections (for those who aren't bored of reading them lol!)

The hierarchy "rules":

1) Pack leader always eats first.

Certainly in natural wolf families this is not the case. There is little evidence it is the case in dogs, no evidence in normal pet circumstances.

2) Pack leader gets the best food (thanks to eating first)

Wouldn't be very good for a pack would it if most memebers ended up suffering with malnutrition?

3) Pack leader always walks in front / leads the way.

So are sled dogs being "dominant" over their mushers? Guide dogs over their blind owners? Tiny puppies on their first few walks who haven't been loose lead trained yet?

How effective do you think a pack of wolves would be at getting food if they insisted on moving everywhere in a linear formation?

4) Pack leader always gets the highest or best resting places.

Really? Not much evidence of this either. Look at multi-dog households - some dogs prefer to sleep together, some prefer their space. The idea of best / most comfy etc is subjective. I have friends with dogs who hog the sofa, others who won't even lie on a blanket - preferring the hard floor. And do dogs really understand the concept of "basket is for dogs, sofa is for people"? (Without training where they can and can not go I mean)

5) Similar to no 3; Pack leader goes through doorways etc first.

Does this have nothing to do with the speed at which they are moving? If you have a whippet and a bulldog in the same household and you call them in from the garden who do you think will come through first? Or perhaps it could depend on what is on the other side? How motivating is it for the dog to get there? Something a bit scary might slow the dog down, something exciting will make him strive to get there asap.

And those owners who do this - do you also do it religiously when you let your dog out to pee in the pouring rain? 

The exercise obsession:

Many trainers and behaviourists believe that a lot of problems in dogs are caused by boredom and/or lack of exercise. This isn't some special CM voodoo.

However, CM IMO goes totally overboard with physical exercise - not taking into account the dogs fitness, age, breed, ability, health etc.

Of course there is also the risk that you simply create a fitter dog who needs even more exercise to wear him out, or who becomes so desperate for a high level of exercise that he can't cope if you are short of time or ill one day.

He also seems to stick to the purely physical. He doesn't point out that training is usually far more effective at wearing a dog out (plus helps to get a better behaved dog!!). Doesn't consider letting the dog be a dog - sniffing, greeting, exploring etc. Doesn't consider using play to prevent boredom and help build a better bond.

Finally - the proof is in the pudding:

I'm not a trainer or a behaviourist; but persomally I've known plenty of poorly trained dogs and dogs with issues whose owners followed some if not all of the "rules". Likewise the majority of the dogs I know are well behaved and pretty normal, sociable dogs - despite being fed first, sleeping on the bed, and walking (without pulling) ahead of their owners.

I've yet to see any evidence that the rules actually make any difference.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Colette said:


> 3) Pack leader always walks in front / leads the way.
> 
> So are sled dogs being "dominant" over their mushers? Guide dogs over their blind owners? Tiny puppies on their first few walks who haven't been loose lead trained yet?


And don't forget Border Collies.... Most have a natural instinct to be in front, as that's the way they work sheep. They wouldn't be much use hanging behind the shepherd all the time.

Ever been to an Obedience trial or Agility show? These incredibly well-trained BCs are often seen steaming ahead on lead & pulling their owners outside the ring.

But I suppose CM would say they go in front to dominate the sheep.....


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> And don't forget Border Collies.... Most have a natural instinct to be in front, as that's the way they work sheep. They wouldn't be much use hanging behind the shepherd all the time.


Too right MM :thumbsup: 
Natural instinct is to balance the handler at the 12 oclock position.

Although good shepherds/handlers (dependent on their dog, sheep and terrain) will proof them being able to perform all sheepdog behaviours on cue irrespective of handler position too. Dog might not always be able to see the handler totally if they are have been sent half way up or down a massive hill for instance.



> Ever been to an Obedience trial or Agility show? These incredibly well-trained BCs are often seen steaming ahead on lead & pulling their owners outside the ring.


:lol::lol:

Oh shoot, I never thought of this till now; 
All those fast sendaway jump spreads we've been practicing?! What have I been doing?! What will become of me and my dominant, zooming collie dog?! :eek6:



> But I suppose CM would say they go in front to dominate the sheep.....


Indeed. I had some twit (self professed collie expert, never owned one, owned a cavalier) decide to educate me on the breed (that I own) once and he confirmed the above.

Ye Gods! To think all of those sheepdog assessments and lectures I went on harping on about instinctive behaviour and fixed action patterns, predatory chase sequence were all wrong! :shocked: :eek6:

:lol::lol:

As I say, shiny teeth is master of "Make it up as you go along... psychology"


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## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

A few years my sister was totally into Caesar Milan, had gone to his live appearances and watch his show religiously and had a few of his books. She didn't have her own dog, it was her BF that had the dog. 

I gave her a dog that I'd describe as a one person dog, didn't like other people and you have to work to earn his trust. Anyway to make a long story short, she started handling the dog the CM way. Since I knew the dogs personality, I wasn't so sure about what she was doing so I did a bit of research on dealing with feral dogs and made some suggestions to her that she researched. When she really looked into the CM way and applying to techniques on her dog, she decided they wouldn't work for her dog.

Fast forward to seeing her this past summer and she is much more knowledgeable (having gone through several trainers and done a lot more research, dog is on the "difficult" side) and is adamantly against the Caesar Milan/Dog Whisperer way and feels that the months she did apply it to the dog where actually destructive to him. Says she is having much more success and lasting success with the positive reward based training then any of the discipline based training methods she tried.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Zhari said:


> Since I knew the dogs personality, I wasn't so sure about what she was doing so I did a bit of research on dealing with feral dogs and made some suggestions to her that she researched. When she really looked into the CM way and applying to techniques on her dog, she decided they wouldn't work for her dog.


That's fabulous!  Especially the researching into feral dogs - that research is probably the most groundbreaking stuff in the last decade - the study of how dogs organise themselves when left "wild" - and they *don't* form packs like wolves.

The length of time that dogs have been domesticated changes all the time, but 15,000 years is plenty to have changed a wild wolf into a domestic dog with different behaviours and social structure.

Added to that, wolves are family units, not "gangs" rules by one despotic leader.

What you have in your home is a DOG not a wolf, so as my sig says..... you can't be a pack leader of a species that doesn't form packs


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> ... some twit, a self-professed collie expert, never owned one, owned a cavalier, decided to educate me
> on the breed that I own... & he confirmed ["dogs in front of humans" is 'dominance'].
> 
> Ye Gods! To think all of those sheepdog assessments & lectures I went to, harping on about instinctive
> ...


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Colette said:


> 5) Similar to no 3; Pack leader goes through doorways etc first.
> 
> Does this have nothing to do with the speed at which they are moving? If you have a whippet and a bulldog in the same household and you call them in from the garden who do you think will come through first? Or perhaps it could depend on what is on the other side? How motivating is it for the dog to get there? Something a bit scary might slow the dog down, something exciting will make him strive to get there asap.
> 
> And those owners who do this - do you also do it religiously when you let your dog out to pee in the pouring rain?


I do. But I live in a flat so have to physically take him out. And the reason behind me going out first is nothing to do with dominance and everything to do with safety. I do not want him charging out just as his arch enemy is passing. Or just as one of the kids who's frightened of dogs is passing. Stuff like that. Certainly doesn't apply to internal doors and coming back into the flat he comes in ahead of me.


> The exercise obsession:
> 
> Many trainers and behaviourists believe that a lot of problems in dogs are caused by boredom and/or lack of exercise. This isn't some special CM voodoo.
> 
> ...


Well this is a guy who had no idea how to teach his dog how to sit so chances are he has no idea that training is actually tiring to a dog. And he probably sees those normal "just being a dog" behaviours as the dog being dominant so they're out too.

I always think dominance is quite a lazy way of looking at things to be honest, it's much easier to put any problems down the dog being dominant or the human not being a strong enough pack leader than it is to try and figure out the real reason behind it. Dog lunges and barks at other dogs? Labelling it dominant is easier than figuring out whether it's frustrated, aggressive, fearful or whatever. Dog doesn't like grandma? It's coz it sees her as weak and is trying to assert itself over her is a far easier explanation to come up with than thinking about whether the dog is frightened by her slow and rather unsteady movements, her walking stick, the funny hat she wears etc.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> And don't forget Border Collies.... Most have a natural instinct to be in front, as that's the way they work sheep. They wouldn't be much use hanging behind the shepherd all the time.
> 
> Ever been to an Obedience trial or Agility show? These incredibly well-trained BCs are often seen steaming ahead on lead & pulling their owners outside the ring.
> 
> *But I suppose CM would say they go in front to dominate the sheep..... *


I know mine is only half collie, but he is collie through and through, just in an ambulls body lol.
But if I had a pound for every time I have heard this in the last few months, well, I would be nicely well off :lol:

I used to try to explain the error of their ways but realised it was easier and quieter to just smile sweetly and move on


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> This is exactly the misconception about positive training that I was talking about. It's not about standing there letting the dog do as it pleases and handing out cookies and cuddles, it's about teaching the dog what you do want and what behaviour is appropriate without the use of fear or pain.
> 
> If my dog were chewing up my clothes I'd distract him and direct him to something appropriate for him to chew, not punish him for not knowing that clothes aren't appropriate chew toys. I also managed the environment for a while so that he had the chance to form good habits about what is and is not a chew toy. Simply saying "no" or "ah" or whatever you choose as a signal to tell your dog that something isn't right does absolutely nothing to teach them what IS right and can very easily lead to frustration for both human and dog.


It can't possibly "do absolutely nothing" because through saying "no" when it chews clothes or anything else that I do not want him to chew, he doesn't chew those things anymore. He only chews his own toys now. We keep clothes quite close to the floor on those laundry frames and he doesn't touch them so yes, saying "no, bad boy or leave it" DOES work to let your dog know what is unacceptable for him to chew indeed


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> It can't possibly "do absolutely nothing" because through saying "no" when it chews clothes or anything else that I do not want him to chew, he doesn't chew those things anymore. He only chews his own toys now. We keep clothes quite close to the floor on those laundry frames and he doesn't touch them so yes, saying "no, bad boy or leave it" DOES work to let your dog know what is unacceptable for him to chew indeed


If I said "no, bad boy" to my dog it would have absolutely zero effect. It would if I yelled it at him, it would likely frighten him into stopping. At least while I was around. It would if I paired it with another aversive such as a smack or a scary noise or with a sensitive dog even just threatening body language. Again, potentially only when I was around. Dogs do not understand English, _something_ you are doing is conveying to your dog that that behaviour displeases you and it would be in his best interests not to do it. What do you do if simply saying no doesn't work? Where do you go from there?


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Most people on here manage to train their dogs without resorting to fear-based training, poking our dogs, using prong collars, domination techniques, blah blah.


....and isn't it a shame that "_most people on here_" dont put up one single youtube vid between them showing the levels of training when their their dogs are subject to emergency or an essential command to stop these "trained" dogs ending up in the likes of chases >>which might risk their welfare - such as world famous Buddy of Bushy Park or global superstar Fenton

Buddy in trainning (tonge in cheek) Bushey Park
Buddy's deer chase in Bushy Park - YouTube

Global Celebrity - Fenton
JESUS CHRIST IN RICHMOND PARK: ORIGINAL UPLOAD - YouTube
.


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## tailtickle (Mar 19, 2012)

*Originally Posted by Sarah1983 View Post*
"This is exactly the misconception about positive training that I was talking about. It's not about standing there letting the dog do as it pleases and handing out cookies and cuddles,* it's about teaching the dog what you do want and what behaviour is appropriate without the use of fear or pain".
*
If my dog were chewing up my clothes I'd distract him and direct him to something appropriate for him to chew, not punish him for not knowing that clothes aren't appropriate chew toys. I also managed the environment for a while so that he had the chance to form good habits about what is and is not a chew toy. Simply saying "no" or "ah" or whatever you choose as a signal to tell your dog that something isn't right does absolutely nothing to teach them what IS right and can very easily lead to frustration for both human and dog.



LeaderOfThePack said:


> It can't possibly "do absolutely nothing" because through saying "no" when it chews clothes or anything else that I do not want him to chew, he doesn't chew those things anymore. He only chews his own toys now. We keep clothes quite close to the floor on those laundry frames and he doesn't touch them so yes, saying "no, bad boy or leave it" DOES work to let your dog know what is unacceptable for him to chew indeed


Agree with Leaderofthepack, an immediate response to something unacceptable that is quick, firm and clear, is certainly not using "fear or pain" as suggested by Sarah1983.

_If a young child was in the garden and about to open the back gate, which would then allow a puppy to run out, swiftly followed by the young child too! Would it be best to rush up the garden searching for a toy, to hopefully distract the child to play, in the hope that this would be done in time to prevent the back gate being unlocked, and child and puppy running outside! Or would a quick firm "Johnny, No, Leave it", be appropriate to stop the gate being opened? Or would that be using fear and pain?_

With reference to Feral dogs - If they were cast out alone, they are individually Feral, they do not meet up in the Town Square, and discuss whose Home-Pad is the best to live. They come and go as individuals, a few will be drawn together, just as dogs take a particular liking to certain dogs. Who is going to develop the Pack? The dogs themselves will be busy using their basic skills to survive, and that might be relevant even from each other! Their aim is survival. No time for calling everyone to a Board-Room Meeting and sussing who can/will enjoy and live with who! They have not been introduced as a group or groups, so they rely on self. When studied over time, it is not uncommon to notice certain feral dogs in closer proximity to others of their choosing and comfort, while equally learning and recognising who best to avoid. Protection, Awareness, Comfort, Weakness, Strength, Safety - The start of pack formation.

If however, you developed a group together, took them home, fed, walked them together, guided and interacted with them as a group, they would eventually form a pack. That group (or groups from other homes, whether 2, 3 or 4 dogs) if sadly placed within a Feral environment would _run together_ until circumstances changed.

Every Mammal living in a Group has a pecking order, or pack structure. When new animals come into a Group, issues even chaos can erupt, until the animal has found its niche.

tailtickle x


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

SleepyBones said:


> ....and isn't it a shame that "_most people on here_" dont put up one single youtube vid between them showing the levels of training when their their dogs are subject to emergency or an essential command to stop these "trained" dogs ending up in the likes of chases >>which might risk their welfare - such as world famous Buddy of Bushy Park or global superstar Fenton
> 
> Buddy in trainning (tonge in cheek) Bushey Park
> Buddy's deer chase in Bushy Park - YouTube
> ...


I don't tend to take videos of walks or training - but the few times I've needed to call my dog off chasing deer which have suddenly sprung up in front of us or the time he somehow got himself into the patch of moorland with the pregnant ewes he has always obeyed commands to stop and come back. And I use positive training methods


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I don't tend to take videos of walks or training


Yes I noticed your ommisions of educational videos, plenty words though in the 1,095 posts you've written/made!

They say Buddys' owner was ripped off by a positive trainer!




.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

tailtickle said:


> Agree with Leaderofthepack, an immediate response to something unacceptable that is quick, firm and clear, is certainly not using "fear or pain" as suggested by Sarah1983.
> 
> _If a young child was in the garden and about to open the back gate, which would then allow a puppy to run out, swiftly followed by the young child too! Would it be best to rush up the garden searching for a toy, to hopefully distract the child to play, in the hope that this would be done in time to prevent the back gate being unlocked, and child and puppy running outside! Or would a quick firm "Johnny, No, Leave it", be appropriate to stop the gate being opened? Or would that be using fear and pain?_


There is a huge difference between training behaviours and reacting to a potentially dangerous situation  If my dog were about to run out in front of a car I'd grab him by whatever means necessary and to hell with whether it hurt him a bit. Certainly wouldn't even consider doing it to teach him to leave an item alone though.

And yes, a quick, firm leave it can easily be frightening to a dog depending on how it has been trained. Presumably to a toddler too.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> ....and isn't it a shame that "_most people on here_" dont put up one single youtube vid between them showing the levels of training when their their dogs are subject to emergency or an essential command to stop these "trained" dogs ending up in the likes of chases >>which might risk their welfare - such as world famous Buddy of Bushy Park or global superstar Fenton
> 
> Buddy in trainning (tonge in cheek) Bushey Park
> Buddy's deer chase in Bushy Park - YouTube
> ...


When I need to call my dog off a chase in an emergency - such as of the wild goats we sometimes come across - the last thing I think to do is grab a camera and to start filming, it is an emergency and I want to concentrate on getting my dog back. I have never put up a single YouTube video of anything I have ever done - dog related or otherwise, so the lack of YouTube videos doesn't really signify anything.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

SleepyBones said:


> ....and isn't it a shame that "_most people on here_" dont put up one single youtube vid between them showing the levels of training when their their dogs are subject to emergency or an essential command to stop these "trained" dogs ending up in the likes of chases >>which might risk their welfare - such as world famous Buddy of Bushy Park or global superstar Fenton
> 
> Buddy in trainning (tonge in cheek) Bushey Park
> Buddy's deer chase in Bushy Park - YouTube
> ...


Do you have evidence of the training that these dogs have had? What methodology was followed?


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> the lack of YouTube videos doesn't really signify anything.


Graphic educational images and lack of them both signify something, much of what we know about prehistoric humans is through cave paintings, this progressed to picture writings, most commonly known are the Egyptians of antiquity & picture 'writing' is still used by some cultures. Youtube is the most modern medium of bringing uptodate news stories with little or no further explanation needed, see sample below.

Spain train crash - 20 mins after event





.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Graphic educational images and lack of them both signify something, much of what we know about prehistoric humans is through cave paintings, this progressed to picture writings, most commonly known are the Egyptians of antiquity & picture 'writing' is still used by some cultures.
> .


Yes, thank you. I am just finishing my educational wall paintings as we speak; I also have scrolls available via mail order in sanscrit.

I do not feel the need to broadcast anything from any area of my life via YouTube, it makes me uncomfortable. As long as I can keep my dogs and those who may encounter them safe I am happy.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Do you have evidence of the training that these dogs have had? What methodology was followed?


Buddys owner shows some commercial trainer style method attempt.
Buddy deer chase in Bushy Park - YouTube
.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

SleepyBones said:


> Buddys owner shows some commercial trainer style method attempt.
> Buddy deer chase in Bushy Park - YouTube
> .


And that's sufficient for you to use it as an example?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

SleepyBones said:


> Buddys owner shows some commercial trainer style method attempt.
> Buddy deer chase in Bushy Park - YouTube
> .


It certainly shows ineffective training. But you have that problem no matter what method you use. Simply waving a ball on a rope around in the hopes the dog will be more interested in that than in deer is not training. And that's pretty much all the video shows, someone waving a toy around in the hopes the dog will ignore the deer in favour of it. In an uncontrolled environment where the dog has the ability to self reward when it goes horribly wrong.


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

proof is nothing - only personal owners with their own dogs know how they behave and how to get them to follow a/at/the command - always something that has interested me as with horses training is a purely personal choice and to what method is correct well that is the debate, I approached my dog training as I deal with my horse handling, did the basics in the beginning from the start with positive reward and got to know the individual personality of the dog involved, then tailored the more advanced training thus - do I have videos nope - why erm because I could not be arsed and what do I need to prove to anyone!I know it works and thats that.

I suppose those that like to 'show' off as it were tend to be seeking something thats lacking elsewhere.

I do have some photos though, but these are just because we should all have photo's!!

I have taught pony to be lead by dog - all of the moving images where blurry so pony had to stand command and Maisey had to sit command - just a bit of fun, took awhile to achieve and pony was alot happier than he looks in this photo - but again what does it prove, other than I have a gorgeous springer and a handsome pony!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> ....and isn't it a shame that "_most people on here_" dont put up one single youtube vid between them showing the levels of training when their their dogs are subject to emergency or an essential command to stop these "trained" dogs ending up in the likes of chases >>which might risk their welfare - such as world famous Buddy of Bushy Park or global superstar Fenton
> 
> Buddy in trainning (tonge in cheek) Bushey Park
> Buddy's deer chase in Bushy Park - YouTube
> ...


Am not sure what the Buddy clip is supposed to prove other than some idiot getting their dog hyped up very close to wild life & then no surprise when it suddenly becomes interested in the deer & starts to chase :confused1:

I see an IPO trainer & have seen his dogs walk past deer as they are so fixated on him & ball, he hasn't used collars on them (& is not 100% against the use of these for certain dogs & for certain problems) so it is rubbish to say that positive reinforcement doesn't work


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I suppose those that like to 'show' off as it were tend to be seeking something thats lacking elsewhere.


Well whatever it is the girl who shot & uploaded the vid below is lacking, I think shes done a great, educational job, hope the likes of Fenton, Buddys & all other UK owners who come across deer in their environment understand the severe risks from deer, as in vid below, glad the girl was 'lacking' & did post on youtube, v helpful info for dog owners such as buddys' who take deer for granted & whose recall is unreliable.

.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

tailtickle said:


> With reference to Feral dogs - If they were cast out alone, they are individually Feral, they do not meet up in the Town Square, and discuss whose Home-Pad is the best to live. They come and go as individuals, a few will be drawn together, just as dogs take a particular liking to certain dogs. Who is going to develop the Pack?


----snip----

The studies done on feral dogs show they do not form packs. They form random, fluid groups, with some dogs chumming up with one or two others as "best buddies" and that's how it stays.

If you are using "pack" in the commensal sense, i.e. a group living together, staying together, for some common aim e.g. raising young, then feral dogs do not form packs.

Referring to a group of three or more dogs as being a "pack", as a collective noun, is different.



> Every Mammal living in a Group has a pecking order, or pack structure. When new animals come into a Group, issues even chaos can erupt, until the animal has found its niche.


*Niche* is the operative word. Our domestic dogs don't have the chance to leave a group if they want to. Even where people keep large numbers of dogs, two or three will be best mates and sleep together - two others might float about pretending each other doesn't exist.

"Leader" is a redundant word since each dog takes on a different role, but may change roles with another on different occasions. That is what is meant by "fluid" - There is no single, despotic individual in control who oversees everything, except the owner.


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

ergo my point, watching those videos offers nothing other than a laugh, one of mine likes to chase rabbits, when she is with me and I notice the signs we go through the leave it, and I can do this from horseback - sorry no videos again, and if you or anyone else out there does not understand the natural animal environment without the aid of a video well durrrrrr. 

Have you seen a brock attack? I have, darn it I should have taken a video so that I can educate the ijits silly me - you carry on, as like many a closed door I will leave it shut.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> so it is rubbish to say that positive reinforcement doesn't work


I agree, who said that? I did not notice it.

In fact the vast majority of recurrent convicted prisoners prove it does, if it did not they would not be in prison for recurrent offence(s).
.


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

MerlinsMum said:


> "Leader" is a redundant word since each dog takes on a different role, but may change roles with another on different occasions. That is what is meant by "fluid" - There is no single, despotic individual in control who oversees everything, except the owner.


^^^ who wants to be a leader anyway :confused1: beautifully succinct x


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> I agree, who said that? I did not notice it.
> 
> In fact the vast majority of recurrent convicted prisoners prove it does
> .


In the clip it states that the ball on the rope is supposed to stop the dog from chasing deer, & that is known as positive training but then goes on to say that like 1000s of other dog owners he has paid for a very expensive lesson in psychobabble :confused1:

I am confused, a ball on a rope will not 'stop' a dog chasing deer, if you get your dog so interested in a ball that it doesn't notice deer then this can be very successful. I don't know many people who would work hype their dog up so closely to deer & then expect the dog not to react to them.

My dog has chased deer & I doubt that I will ever get her so interested in a ball now (after she has had so much excitement from that one chase) but that is not to say that others can't. As I said I have seen my trainers dogs walk past deer & they would not chase as they are so fixated on him & their ball due to lots & lots of training niot because the ball has magical powers


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2014)

LOL New Year, same sleepybones... 

I have all the proof I need that the way I train works. 
Actually Im happy to post videos for those who are genuinely interested, and have, but Im not going to do it just to see whos is bigger if you know what I mean.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> In the clip it states that the ball on the rope is supposed to stop the dog from chasing deer, & that is known as *positive training* but then goes on to say that like 1000s of other dog owners he has paid for a very expensive lesson in psychobabble
> 
> I am confused,


What I think you are confused about, from what you wrote above, is that you are equating "positive training" with 'positive reinforcement'. 'Positive reinforcement' has nothing to do with 'positive training', 'positive training' is a sales term used by commercial dog trainers, 'positive reinforcement' is a term from operant conditioning & the behaviourist school of human psychology, they are unrelated to commercial dog training
.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I don't know many people who would work hype their dog up so closely to deer & then expect the dog not to react to them.


I doubt its the fault of the owner, commercial trainers taught that kind of thing to pet owners such as that guy as a part of their desentisation training, they called it reward training or positive training, pet owners were just told they had to reward their dogs & that kind of ball use was a reward.
.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Have you seen a brock attack?


I haven't, I have always been nervous of my dogs getting tangled with a badger but never seen one, I cant tell the difference between a badger earth entrance & fox- maybe you could video one or the other to help & post it on youtube, I would find it useful to know the difference

Badger attacks fox


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> I havent, I have always been nervous of my dogs getting tangled with a badger but never seen one, I cant tell the difference between a badger earth entrance & fox- maybe you could video one or the other to help & post it on youtube, I would find it useful to know the difference
> 
> Badger attacks fox


Please remember this is a family forum and open to children. I don't think we need videos of wildlife attacking each other.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Please remember this is a family forum and open to children. I don't think we need videos of wildlife attacking each other.


Ohh good heavens above :lol:, now we have a frustrated, unwanted, old spinster promoting illiteracy all over the forum, the forums really hit rock bottom now:thumbup:
.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Ohh good heavens above :lol:, now we have a frustrated, unwanted, old spinster promoting illiteracy all over the forum, the forums really hit rock bottom now:thumbup:
> .


What a very strange world you live in. I am actually a widow, not a spinster, and you obviously do not know the meaning of the word "illiteracy". Shame you cannot stick to the rule to be civil, is it not?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

SleepyBones said:


> I doubt its the fault of the owner, commercial trainers taught that kind of thing to pet owners such as that guy as a part of their desentisation training, they called it reward training or positive training, pet owners were just told they had to reward their dogs & that kind of ball use was a reward.
> .


I know you are banned and all but still...

The above example couldn't possibly be because the owner may have misunderstood what the trainer had taught (cos that never happens anywhere...) orrrrrr it couldn't possibly be because the owner had unfortunately found an inexperienced (charlatan) trainer (cos that never happens, ever....)

There are good and bad across the board in anything and everything, just because someone finds one trainer that isn't all they are supposed to be cracked up to, doesn't mean that everyone is the same... but then that doesn't fit in with your ethos now does it


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I'm a bit confused, easily done, but how can someone still be posting if they are banned?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Siskin said:


> I'm a bit confused, easily done, but how can someone still be posting if they are banned?


They posted before they were banned


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> They posted before they were banned


Ok thanks. So gone forever or will they just make a new user name and rejoin?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Siskin said:


> Ok thanks. So gone forever or will they just make a new user name and rejoin?


Depends. Dunno whether it's a permanent ban to start with.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Singing:


Sarah1983 said:


> Depends. Dunno whether it's a *permanent ban*...


Dare we hope?...


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

There are many many flaws with CM's training methods and that's coming from someone who used to religiously watch and record all of his series, as well as seeing him live at Wembley in 2010. I've seen for myself how bad his techniques can be in the wrong hands, as well as his. You are right that many Americans believe in the dominance/submissive training of dogs and I see it stated time and again on an American based Mal group on Facebook. One person said: 'He ran to the very back of his crate, I followed and he shook with fear. He has to know I am his boss!' about his Malamute and it almost made me cry, as I pictured someone doing that to one of mine, let alone this poor dog who was going through it. Others said 'You have to be the boss with a Mal!' I've never, ever had to instil fear in my three and I can do anything with them, medical treatments, take food or bones away, clip nails and I don't have to show them I'm their leader. Sure they can and do, do naughty things, play me up when out now and then but they're animals and aren't always impeccably behaved. 
On that group most like CM BUT they are very open to suggestions of positive reinforcement and join in with questions about it when the few of us who promote it post. I always thought his programmes were okay, learned a few things about myself as a handler which helped but when I read things like that above I can see how damaging it is to air them. People go too far and that guy in particular is lucky he didn't get mauled by a trapped, fearful dog - would have been entirely his fault if he had too. 
I love that Mal group, no one takes offence or name calls and all are open to suggestion and willing to try a different method. Its hardly their fault for believing what they see on TV, many do and its refreshing to hear of success stories when they've tried the PR method. 

I used to have CM on my Facebook timeline but I got so fed up of him appearing with this celebrity and that celebrity, all glitter and beached teeth that I had to delete him. I found him to be a showman and not the true, helpful person I thought he was. I agree a calm approach and a loose lead works but I don't agree with 'hanging' a dog when it doesn't.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I have never had a dog fear me, but I would have thought it was a very dangerous thing to instil. Dogs are, after all, animals who will protect themselves. Ferdie sits on the sofa, licks me round the ear and lays his head on my shoulder. Will he do almost anything for me? Yes, as long as it isn't something that will frighten him.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I used to be a massive fan of CM. Watched his shows religiously
> 
> Then I started using this forum and couldn't understand the objections to him. I was given info on how to recognise stress in dogs - the signs and signals they use when anxious and trying to calm themselves.
> 
> ...


I saw that episode - it was the final straw for me, too. That poor little bitch was terrified. She kept giving appeasement signals, and 'please-jst-let-me-get-out-of-the-way' signals, and he deliberately backed her into a corner in order to show her who was boss. She bit out of fear, not because she was resource guarding. But of course, who was at fault? Not the great Cesar.

I agree that there may be techniques that someone sensible could take and adapt to use with a difficult dog, but almost all of his methods rely on sheer bullying and they are cruel, quite frankly. I think that all dogs are happier when they know their place in the family, and what they can and can't do, just like children, but I don't think that CM's methods are the best to achieve this. They may be the quickest - fear is a great motivator - but the won't leave you with a dog which is happy and relaxed with you as their mam or dad (of course, the dogs may be so terrified of getting stuck with CM that they are as good as gold forever after!). I think that he's remarkably fortunate not to have been very badly bitten, and I suspect he screens his subjects to find ones which will give a good show without presenting too much danger to him - because a lotos apparent aggression IS just show, due to anxiety, and carefully handled can be coped with.

I notice that the dogs he can't cope with he takes to his 'ranch' for a sort of doggy boot camp - well of course they behave differently there, They are in a strange place with a huge pack of unknown dogs and absolutely nothing familiar to give them confidence. They then have to get to know these others - which are a threat and which aren't etc. They probably aren't even getting the food they are used to, or have their own bed or blanket. They have no idea what is happening to them and have to start from scratch. Wouldn't it dent your confidence a bit if you woke up one day and that had happened?

I like Victoria Stillwell - I don't watch her regularly, but her methods seem very dog-orientated, and she has no compunctions about telling the owners that certain situations just aren't acceptable.


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## TaliasMum (Jan 10, 2014)

I'm British. Tried CM training on my pup and it confused the life out of her. Now I ignore bad behaviours and reward for good; she understands and is a lovely dog who I do NOT mollycoddle or hug when she does something wrong. Also since I've stopped she listens to be better. I just don't think she gets me being a pack leader, she responds better to me simply being calm and clear and listens to me. Try not to be so negative about us Brits


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

TaliasMum said:


> I'm British. Tried CM training on my pup and it confused the life out of her. Now I ignore bad behaviours and reward for good; she understands and is a lovely dog who I do NOT mollycoddle or hug when she does something wrong. Also since I've stopped she listens to be better. I just don't think she gets me being a pack leader, she responds better to me simply being calm and clear and listens to me. Try not to be so negative about us Brits


Actually this is a UK forum and the majority of our members are British. Your dog won't respond to you being her pack leader, because for one thing dogs do not form that sort of pack and for another she knows you are not a dog.

I get very angry that this pratt makes millions out of abusing dogs without knowing sweet sod all about them and people all over the world think he is wonderful. Resource guarding is one of the easiest behaviours to either retrain or to manage, so the only reason to terrorise the dog was to make himself look important.

The sad thing is that people who follow his methods will never know the joy of having their dogs as friends. Ferdie sits on the sofa next to me, licks me round the ear and lays his head on my shoulder. On the sofa? My God, he will want to take over the world!:nono:

I live in a bungalow and every morning Diva climbs onto the bed though she can only get her front half up and lays her head on the pillow next to me. On the other side of the bed Ferdie is presenting me with my slippers, which he plonks down on the pillow one at a time. That is a joy these CM fanatics will never know.

Welcome to the forum, btw.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Malmum said:


> I used to have CM on my Facebook timeline but I got so fed up of him appearing with this celebrity and that celebrity, all glitter and* beached teeth* that I had to delete him. I found him to be a showman and not the true, helpful person I thought he was. I agree a calm approach and a loose lead works but I don't agree with 'hanging' a dog when it doesn't.


I love the bolded bit. I am sure it was a typo but it is brilliant.

I have only ever watched a few minutes of CM a couple of times but the dogs were so shut down. A lot of what he does would be ok if he knew when to stop, he seems to enjoy goading dogs.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I love the bolded bit. I am sure it was a typo but it is brilliant.
> 
> I have only ever watched a few minutes of CM a couple of times but the dogs were so shut down. A lot of what he does would be ok if he knew when to stop, *he seems to enjoy goading dogs.*


That is a large part of why I dislike him so much. He goads them into really awful states that they never would have been in left to their own devices - all for TV.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Dogless said:


> That's a large part of why I dislike [Cesar Millan, the so-called 'dog whisperer'] so much.
> *He goads [dogs] into really awful states* that they never would have been in, left to their own devices -
> all for TV.


That was strongly-suspected for a long while, but no one had proof, as everyone who works for him
& all his "guests" - the dog-owners & families who appear on his show - are sworn to secrecy. *Everyone*
who has on-scene access is under a gag-order - which, of course, is bizarre in itself.

On episode #100, the truth was finally portrayed: not only are the dogs regularly agitated,
*the dog who's used as the agitator was very-likely adopted for the purpose.*

He's a cream GSD-mix who belongs to a long-time crew member; he was adopted with a known
pre-existing problem of dog-aggression & intense dog-reactivity. *Far from 'fixing' his issues, or using
B-Mod to reduce his reactivity & aggro toward dogs, they cultivate it - he gets "exercised" for each
show he's used in, off-camera before they start recording to make the "guest" dog look insane 
in the edited segments.*

Segments are also rearranged in time to make the scripted narrative flow the way they want it to;
a dog who reacts when they come to the door by trotting over with a wagging tail to sniff pantslegs
isn't exciting or threatening - swap the part AFTER s/he's been agitated with the calm, curious greeting,
& voila'!... a frothing maniac greets them as they enter the door. 

It's a product to be sold; there's a pre-existing template, & the episode is cut into snippets, like
a single photo cut into puzzle-pieces, but it's not reassembled into the original image - instead,
it's reassembled to fit the template & make the pattern they want to show.

*A:* dog is shown "misbehaving"
*B:* Mr Millan arrives
*C:* owner / family explains the problem
*D:* Mr Millan "diagnoses & treats"
*E:* dog reacts dramatically - CM persists 
*F:* dog is apparently "cured"
*G:* Mr Millan departs; _"My work here is done..."_ :glare: Yeah, right.

The facts are that things don't happen the way they are shown;
the dogs are not "cured", & the outcome isn't "happily ever-after".
Many of the dog's problem behaviors persist, quite a few are much worse, some develop brand-new
very worrying problem-behaviors --- like severe aggression toward *the owner* which is new;
or re-directed aggro toward complete strangers, visiting relatives, etc; or strange fears that are new.

Fellow members of USA-apdt in the Los Angeles area frequently complained about B-Mod with dogs
AFTER they'd been "cured" // worked with, by Mr Millan. Every one of those trainers said they'd much
rather have seen the dog with the *original* problem issue, *before* Mr Millan was hired to work with 
the dog, as the problems were much more complex & difficult to resolve, after.
:nonod: I'm glad his star is on the wane - as his influence has IMO & IME, set dog-training back in the USA
by easily 40-years of slow progress toward more humane, kind, reward-based methods.

I now see PUPPY-OWNERS forcefully check their pups, who are under 6-MO & may be as young as 8-WO,
on choke-chains!... They grab, roll, & pin startled pups for tiny, predictable 'offenses' like wanting to meet
another dog! - dear heaven, what a crime.  I've seen pups SMACKED in broad daylight on the public
sidewalk, for LAGGING on the leash, on an 85-degree day of 90% humidity. :mad5: This is horrifying - 
literally, i didn't see this sort of abuse when i was just a kid, in the late 1960s.

*Forty years of progress, heartbreakingly slow - overturned by one photogenic TV-host
in a mere 2 or 3 years of nationally-broadcast shows, with a simplistic, appealing, ignorant
message: "Dogs try to dominate us, & we must dominate dogs."*
That it's not true doesn't make it weak; the power of that meme is in its appeal, not its truth.
So sad. :nonod:
.
.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

What I will never understand is why anyone with half a brain cell would sign a confidentiality agreement for a dog trainer supposedly coming to cure their dog. I mean, why would you? It is obvious there is going to be something dodgy going on.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> That was strongly-suspected for a long while, but no one had proof, as everyone who works for him
> & all his "guests" - the dog-owners & families who appear on his show - are sworn to secrecy. *Everyone*
> who has on-scene access is under a gag-order - which, of course, is bizarre in itself.
> 
> ...




A prime example of this is the episode where CM hangs a husky/malamute Shadow turns blue - YouTube until the dog is almost unconscious.

The magazine Psychology Today followed up. In their article, they say "So, how did this sort of abusive treatment affect Shadow? As predicted, and as no surprise, Shadow was severely traumatized. Just today someone sent me a note called "A Cesar Millan Story" from the woman who first adopted Shadow and who able to get him back after he was strung up and put in his place by Mr. Millan. After being strung up Shadow bit the woman with whom he was then living when she was punishing him for getting into her vegetable garden. 
Shadow's original rescuer writes, "*I found out that the scene where he bites Cesar they had been working him up for an hour before they got that clip, turns out it is all about the show and not the dog. They deliberately bait the dogs to get them to react.* We did contact the producers and I think they persuaded the woman to give Shadow back to the rescue, as she was determined to not give him back to us, she even refused to talk to the lady that runs the malamute rescue." 
Full article http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...adow-and-cesar-millan-update-the-strung-husky


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

lemmsy said:


> Shadow turns blue


Unfortunately this video isnt effective in demonstrating the flaws of Cesar Milan as the quality, audio and video. is very poor. You definitely cannot make out the dog 'turning blue' as per the title. 
Which is a shame, people that may be dubious regarding information against CM's methods, will watch this and not really focus and learn from the content, they most likely will just say "I cant see a dog turning blue". Then may think his opponents are just making things up.
Video counter-productive for use as evidence, the Holly video does the job much much better.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> Unfortunately this video isnt effective in demonstrating the flaws of Cesar Milan as the quality, audio and video. is very poor. You definitely cannot make out the dog 'turning blue' as per the title.
> Which is a shame, people that may be dubious regarding information against CM's methods, will watch this and not really focus and learn from the content, they most likely will just say "I cant see a dog turning blue". Then may think his opponents are just making things up.
> Video counter-productive for use as evidence, the Holly video does the job much much better.


It's true the video quality is poor (other clips on U-tube showing the same event are available, some are better including the full episode) but it's one of the few cases where a follow-up has been published about the after-effects on the dog. You don't have to see the dog turning blue to see the level of abuse perpetrated by CM - the dog is clearly suspended by what amounts to a noose. His shocking lack of understanding as to why the dog has an erection (he puts it down to dominance, surprise surprise) is something that happens when the blood, unable to return to the brain due to pressure on the neck, has to go somewhere - like autoerotic strangulation.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Tails and Trails said:


> Unfortunately this video isnt effective in demonstrating the flaws of Cesar Milan as the quality, audio and video. is very poor. You definitely cannot make out the dog 'turning blue' as per the title.
> Which is a shame, people that may be dubious regarding information against CM's methods, will watch this and not really focus and learn from the content, they most likely will just say "I cant see a dog turning blue". Then may think his opponents are just making things up.
> Video counter-productive for use as evidence, the Holly video does the job much much better.


You are right, but I think it is the title that is misleading in this case. The fact of what he is doing to that dog would make anybody who knows dogs furious. If anyone saw someone treating a dog like that on the street, they would be straight on to the police, yet because this pratt does it on tv, they think he must be good. The Holly one is the better example as well as the 11 month old St Bernard being dragged up a flight of spiral stairs, the retriever and the chicken, and the German Shepherd and the cat. Lots more.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> *You are right, but I think it is the title that is misleading in this case.* The fact of what he is doing to that dog would make anybody who knows dogs furious. If anyone saw someone treating a dog like that on the street, they would be straight on to the police, yet because this pratt does it on tv, they think he must be good. The Holly one is the better example as well as the 11 month old St Bernard being dragged up a flight of spiral stairs, the retriever and the chicken, and the German Shepherd and the cat. Lots more.


Re your first sentence, that is indeed what I was getting at.

It goes without saying agree with the rest of your post, but it isnt the likes of me that this video is trying to persuade. It is his supporters, or more importantly, most people that dont have an education in dogs, and just go by what is offered them on telly. So in terms of that educational and persuasive aim, I would state that everything needs to be whiter than white, the i's dotted, and all info and detail presented in a precise enough manner which predicts and preempts any counter strategies by proponents of CM.
For example, by instantly latching onto the imprecise title (which CM defenders inevitably would), one can them go on to extrapolate a further argument along the lines that anti CM people do not observe nor understand what they are seeing properly, make erroneous conclusions, and therefore miss the point as regards how this dog was 'attacking Cesar',thus Cesar had to simply swing the Husky into the ear to regain control and minimize danger, and despite what propagandists would tell you, you are NOT looking at Cesar stringing up a dog so its turns blue'.

Of course, if the video (or version of), did indeed show the dog turning blue, then that automatically neutralizes any such justifying arguments.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> Of course, if the video (or version of), did indeed show the dog turning blue, then that automatically neutralizes any such justifying arguments.


At 3:53 in the video you can see the dogs tongue and gums have indeed turned blue from lack of oxygen. Compared to 4:07 after CM loosens the noose, the dog lip licks and you can see the tongue is now pink. There is a clear change in color from when the dog lies down with hypoxia and after the noose is loosened and color returns to the tongue.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> At 3:53 in the video you can see the dogs tongue and gums have indeed turned blue from lack of oxygen. Compared to 4:07 after CM loosens the noose, the dog lip licks and you can see the tongue is now pink. There is a clear change in color from when the dog lies down with hypoxia and after the noose is loosened and color returns to the tongue.


Have to reiterate, I am speaking from the point of view of an average member of the novice, whom wouldnt be making out anything of any such precise detail as you describe from a video that is indeed poor audio and video quality, and most likely wouldnt be time or free framing either.

Its not an issue whether or not the dog _did_ 'turn blue'.
If someone does indeed link a proper quality video, then calls it 'Cesar nooses a dog until turns blue', and the dog does indeed turn blue, then those of us that wish to educate the unawares public regarding CM will have a fantastic resource that is very very hard to present an argument against


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I used to think he was wonderful . It took watching its me or the dog and someone's recommendation to watch it with the sound off so you can see the dog's reactions without his "explanation" to change my mind. The one that really got me was the american eskimo that has now had it's teeth filed down because he couldn't stop it biting. It attacked people that came to the door, he got them to keep it away from the door which was about the only sensible thing he said the whole episode. When he had it in the crate and was looming over it while it shook and cowered and he claimed it was trying to be dominant because it had it's paw raised I gave up.

You don't have to have a dog scared of you for it to listen to you


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> The one that really got me was the american eskimo that has now had it's teeth filed down because he couldn't stop it biting. It attacked people that came to the door, he got them to keep it away from the door which was about the only sensible thing he said the whole episode. When he had it in the crate and was looming over it while it shook and cowered and he claimed it was trying to be dominant because it had it's paw raised I gave up


One of my favourite examples of CM being a complete ******! The dog in the crate is backing away, wide eyed, cowering and visibly shaking with fear as he looms over it. And what does CM say? 
"He's shaking because he's learning". REALLY?

Seriously, my 70+ year old Nan who has zero knowledge of dogs / behaviour / training realised this was bull - that the dog was scared.

Beats me how anyone with more than 2 brain cells to rub together can believe a word this guy says when he comes out with such absolute sh**e as this.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> Have to reiterate, I am speaking from the point of view of an average member of the novice, whom wouldnt be making out anything of any such precise detail as you describe from a video that is indeed poor audio and video quality, and most likely wouldnt be time or free framing either.
> 
> Its not an issue whether or not the dog _did_ 'turn blue'.
> If someone does indeed link a proper quality video, then calls it 'Cesar nooses a dog until turns blue', and the dog does indeed turn blue, then those of us that wish to educate the unawares public regarding CM will have a fantastic resource that is very very hard to present an argument against


There is a very good quality, well-made video out there with a compilation of scenes where CM kicks dogs in the gut. People will watch *that* video and STILL deny that he is forceful or physical with dogs. 
If folks will watch something like that and still refuse to see what is in front of them, I dont think making the Shadow Turns Blue video better quality will help anything. People see what they want to see.

But for those who DO want to know, videos like Shadow Turns Blue are out there and available to them.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> There is a very good quality, well-made video out there with a compilation of scenes where CM kicks dogs in the gut. People will watch *that* video and STILL deny that he is forceful or physical with dogs.
> If folks will watch something like that and still refuse to see what is in front of them, I dont think making the Shadow Turns Blue video better quality will help anything. People see what they want to see.
> 
> But for those who DO want to know, videos like Shadow Turns Blue are out there and available to them.


These are fair points and such people as you describe clearly exist, but this is not the topic, nor are these the people, I am discussing in my posts


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> These are fair points and such people as you describe clearly exist, but this is not the topic, nor are these the people, I am discussing in my posts


Okay, then I dont know what point youre trying to make really


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colette said:


> One of my favourite examples of CM being a complete ******! The dog in the crate is backing away, wide eyed, cowering and visibly shaking with fear as he looms over it. And what does CM say?
> "He's shaking because he's learning". REALLY?
> 
> Seriously, my 70+ year old Nan who has zero knowledge of dogs / behaviour / training realised this was bull - that the dog was scared.
> ...


I rather like the one with the dog who is afraid of busy places, so he walks him through the town with his tail caught in an upright position declaring that having his tail up makes him happyut:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I rather like the one with the dog who is afraid of busy places, so he walks him through the town
> with his tail caught in an upright position, declaring that having his tail up makes him happy. ut:


That was Ruby - 
a young-adult Viszla who was very-fearful of strangers, defensive & snappish; predictably, she spent a lot
of time with her stub-tail clamped to her butt, & her head down. She was also predictably afraid of losing
possession of things she valued, since she didn't trust ppl... like her food, any treats, & one very-special toy:
a soft-stuffed cloth hamburger that squeaked.

What does our TV-host do?
Harass her while she hunches over her precious squeaky-toy, her eyes white-ringed with stress, pupils huge,
body contracted, & she GrOWLS - what does he do?... Tries to *take it*. What does she do? Predictably...
she *bites* him. :skep: Is this an improvement over feeling highly-defensive & stressed?
Is practicing BITING a form of B-Mod? Frankly, i wish she'd bitten harder.

Then he takes this sound-sensitive, movement-shy, spooky dog downtown, & floods her with threats.
While she's thoroughly cowed, he loops her tail in the leash, lifts it, & announces she's "happier",
now that it's up. :blink: Really? She doesn't *look* nor *act* any happier, to me - not to any other trainer
that i've spoken to, so far.

"Chasing" her down the street by putting on roller-skates as she drags him along is the ultimate - 
obviously, any sound-sensitive dog who doesn't trust strangers will be delighted to be pursued
by the sound of wheels on concrete, & a scary male-stranger who has already terrified her
into biting defensively. She's just Thrilled! // sarcasm.

It was a complete disaster; the dog was a quivering wreck for most of the half-episode - as this was
his first season, he only had TWENTY MINUTES of screen-time not counting commercials, & he had more
than one dog to "fix" // traumatize // harass // display.

The suits at Natl-Geo Channel were obviously much-more impressed by our host's performance than i;
he was given a whole FORTY MINUTES during prime-time to "fix" more dogs, the next season. :001_huh:
Eejits - the lot of them, IMO.
.
.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> That was Ruby -
> a young-adult Viszla who was very-fearful of strangers, defensive & snappish; predictably, she spent a lot
> of time with her stub-tail clamped to her butt, & her head down. She was also predictably afraid of losing
> possession of things she valued, since she didn't trust ppl... like her food, any treats, & one very-special toy:
> ...


Any dog owner who would allow that should be banned from owning dogs. I would smash his face in if he did a fraction of that to one of my dogs.


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## donna160 (Nov 1, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> I rather like the one with the dog who is afraid of busy places, so he walks him through the town with his tail caught in an upright position declaring that having his tail up makes him happyut:


I remember that one! didn't he connect his lead to his tail or something?

At the time i was a CM fan  and it seemed to make sense at the time,a bit like we say walk tall feel tall.
I think one of the problems with him is very quick as well as glib and he explains things a split second after it's happened or even while it's happening so you tend to concentrate on what he's saying rather than what you've just seen and the two kind of blend in.

Set up or not,this sums up CM for me.

Bulldog Afraid of Dog Whisperer - YouTube


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Or the jindo/street dog whatever it was that was almost feral and he just choked it until he could pin it to the ground and claimed it was tamed 

I read an episode guide for I think the first 2 series at one point, written by the producers of the show that went through all the cases and the outcomes. As far as I remember most had either been rehomed or the owners had learned to live with the problems they'd called him in to fix


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I read an episode guide for I think the first 2 [seasons]... written by the producers of the show
> that went through all the cases & the outcomes. AFAIR most had either been rehomed or the owners
> had learned to live with the problems they'd called him in to fix.


i'd LOVE to see this - is there a link, website, anything? :001_tt1: Please, please, please?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i'd LOVE to see this - is there a link, website, anything? :001_tt1: Please, please, please?


I believe this was it I picked it up in a book shop a few years ago
Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan: The Ultimate Episode Guide: Jim Milio, Melissa Jo Peltier, Cesar Millan: 9781416561439: Amazon.com: Books


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

tailtickle said:


> *Originally Posted by Sarah1983 View Post*
> "This is exactly the misconception about positive training that I was talking about. It's not about standing there letting the dog do as it pleases and handing out cookies and cuddles,* it's about teaching the dog what you do want and what behaviour is appropriate without the use of fear or pain".
> *
> If my dog were chewing up my clothes I'd distract him and direct him to something appropriate for him to chew, not punish him for not knowing that clothes aren't appropriate chew toys. I also managed the environment for a while so that he had the chance to form good habits about what is and is not a chew toy. Simply saying "no" or "ah" or whatever you choose as a signal to tell your dog that something isn't right does absolutely nothing to teach them what IS right and can very easily lead to frustration for both human and dog.
> ...


Exactly, I agree with you!
You have to teach a dog what is NOT right by saying "no" as well as teaching it what IS acceptable for it to chew. Ya can#t just show it what is acceptable to chew otherwise it would chew the right thing as well as the wrong thing :/ Isn't that correct?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Ya can#t just show it what is acceptable to chew otherwise it would chew the right thing as well as the wrong thing :/ Isn't that correct?


Err... no.... it really doesn't work that way. Which you'd know... if you knew more.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> ...
> You have to teach a dog what is NOT right [to chew] by saying 'no', as well as [teach] what IS acceptable
> for [the dog] to chew.
> 
> ...


No. 

I teach pups & adult-dogs alike to chew apropos items, & to leave other items alone, WITHOUT "teaching
them what's incorrect / unacceptable to chew". I actively encourage chewing apropos items by offering them,
frequently, & making them more-attractive [a thin smear of butter on a washed nylon or rubber chewie,
a hollow-bone stuffed with lickable yummies, a rubber chewie that doubles as a tuggee for a fun game...].

I *manage the environs* so a pup or dog can't get to things they might destroy, that i value:
i supervise, i monitor, i confine them to dogproofed areas or gate or crate, i PUT AWAY easily-ruined items
& dangerous things [greasy foil, food-smeared wrappers & boxes, medications, batteries, etc].

My shoes are not left on the floor; my bag is hung-up, my gloves are in my coat-pockets, my scarf doesn't
dangle invitingly, my belts are in the closet.

Adults who leave their "toys" lying-about are just as liable for their destruction as kids who leave
their electronics out in the rain, their floatables below the tide-line on the beach, their lunch on the 
coffee-table where the dog finds & eats it.

If U leave a dog solo in the family-room while U trot off to the toilet, & return to find s/he's torn
the curtains off the window & is happily shredding them, next time U'll either take the dog along, or shut
her or him in their crate, or tether them away from the curtains, or otherwise prevent access.

Smacking the dog after the fact won't fix the curtain, nor teach the dog anything except that U're weird -
untrustworthy, unpredictably violent, & scary.

Teaching any dog a happy "leave it" cue is easy - i highly recommend it. :thumbup1:
.
.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Exactly, I agree with you!
> You have to teach a dog what is NOT right by saying "no" as well as teaching it what IS acceptable for it to chew. Ya can#t just show it what is acceptable to chew otherwise it would chew the right thing as well as the wrong thing :/ Isn't that correct?


No, it is not correct. How the hell do you expect a dog to know what no means anyway, unless you have taken the time and effort to teach him. Whenever I have had a new puppy, I have given him a box of old shoes to chew up and I can honestly say that they have never chewed up my own. Not that I am stupid enough to leave them about, but on the rare occasions I did, they were safe.



leashedForLife said:


> No.
> 
> I teach pups & adult-dogs alike to chew apropos items, & to leave other items alone, WITHOUT "teaching
> them what's incorrect / unacceptable to chew". I actively encourage chewing apropos items by offering them,
> ...


That works for safety as well. When I had my lovely living flame gas fire I would turn it off and wait for the flame to die before I left the room even if only for a few seconds, to pour out tea or go to the loo. It didn't stop Ferdie getting too close when I was there and setting his tail on fire, but at least I was there to put it out! That was the last time I used it.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Jax picked up his leave it very quickly as he knew he would be rewarded for leaving it. The main target was the cat door stop that he used to drag across the floor and now has big holes in, but by simply teaching him to leave it the problem has been solved as no way could he be told off for getting it as that wouldn't work and plus it's not his fault the door stop is in reach.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Nope, doesn't work like that.

Behaviours that are rewarded are repeated.
Behaviours that are not rewarded are not.

No need for any punishment - if a behaviour does not result in some sort of reinforcement (whether from the owner, or intrinsically) it will eventually be extinguished. 

And of course practice makes perfect.... behaviours that are practised get stronger; those that are not are weakened. 

So you provide plenty of adequate, extra special chew toys and on top of that make them as rewarding as possible. Remove all temptation ie items you don't want chewed. 

Dog learns that chewing his own toys is very rewarding (pleasent experience, may result in praise from owner etc) so the behaviour is repeated and strengthened. 
Dog never learns the joys of chewing on forbidden items; the behaviour is neither practised nor reinforced so the behaviour never develops or is weakend and eventually extinguished.

I'm not sure what research you've been doing if you still maintain that dogs need to be punished, and that leash yanking is appropriate and safe.??


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Exactly, I agree with you!
> You have to teach a dog what is NOT right by saying "no" as well as teaching it what IS acceptable for it to chew. Ya can#t just show it what is acceptable to chew otherwise it would chew the right thing as well as the wrong thing :/ Isn't that correct?


How do you suppose a dog knows what "no" means?



> Es sei denn, Sie setzen einen Cue auf das Wort "nein", dann können Sie auch sprechen Kauderwelsch...


Now, does that make sense? Well, unless you speak German it will just be a bunch of letters strung together....Which is the point, unless you only use "no" as a sound, much the same as "yes", "Ah" and many others. Once you have interrupted the unsuitable (to you) behaviour, THEN, you can show the dog what you want them to do....

You managed to stop your dog moving his bed across the room yet?
"NO" and punishing worked in that situation...huh? -insert extremely sarcastic voice here-

:skep:


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> No, it is not correct. How the hell do you expect a dog to know what no means anyway, unless you have taken the time and effort to teach him. Whenever I have had a new puppy, I have given him a box of old shoes to chew up and I can honestly say that they have never chewed up my own. Not that I am stupid enough to leave them about, but on the rare occasions I did, they were safe..


Well I have taken the time to teach my dog what no means! 
I say no when my dog used to approach things he shouldn't get his nose into and it's worked great, have you people not read my earlier posts?

I've already said my dog understands "no" and "bad boy" and has stopped doing the bad things so I can leave him alone for as long as I want and he doesn't get distructive.

You people are only teaching the dog what it SHOULD do and not what it shouldn't so therefore the dog will do both


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> Err... no.... it really doesn't work that way. Which you'd know... if you knew more.


Have you not read a word I've said in the past?
I have already said that it works on my dog and many people I know of have discouraged their dog from chewing curtains and clothes by making it unpleasent when they do so but also make it pleasurable when they are good and leave those things alone.

That is what I've done from the beginning with my dog so yes, I know plenty thank you very much.

Please stop commenting on my stuff now, you're annoying me, buh bye


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Well I have taken the time to teach my dog what no means!
> I say no when my dog used to approach things he shouldn't get his nose into and it's worked great, have you people not read my earlier posts?
> 
> I've already said my dog understands "no" and "bad boy" and has stopped doing the bad things so I can leave him alone for as long as I want and he doesn't get distructive.
> ...




No, the dog will not do both. The dog needs an alternative behaviour to the one you do not want. He does not need to know what he mustn't do, that comes on its own.



LeaderOfThePack said:


> Have you not read a word I've said in the past?
> I have already said that it works on my dog and many people I know of have discouraged their dog from chewing curtains and clothes by making it unpleasent when they do so but also make it pleasurable when they are good and leave those things alone.
> 
> That is what I've done from the beginning with my dog so yes, I know plenty thank you very much.
> ...


You posted on a public forum; anyone is entitled to add their two pennorth within the rules and it is not up to you to tell her she can't. If you don't want comments, don't start a thread.


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> No.
> 
> I teach pups & adult-dogs alike to chew apropos items, & to leave other items alone, WITHOUT "teaching
> them what's incorrect / unacceptable to chew". I actively encourage chewing apropos items by offering them,
> ...


So basically you're saying that when the dog does chew your stuff you do nothing and you just give it rewards to chew on instead?

And you say you'd make sure that everything the dog is not allowed to chew has to be locked away? So basically you're telling me that the dog is still attracted to clothes and shoes to chew on?

Well that is because it does NOT know it's wrong to chew them because you have not taught it that it's.

I'll have you know that I can leave whatever I want and leave my dog with my stuff and he will NOT even go near them, why?
Because I HAVE taught my dog what is not acceptable to chew.

I am telling you all that you do have to teach a dog what is not acceptable to chew and what is not or you're forever running around hiding stuff whenever you leave the dog in alone in a room and you shouldn't have to do that. you Should be able to leave a dog in a room and be quite confident that the dog will not touch anything it shouldn't, and That is what I am.
My dog is safe to be around my stuff because it knows not to touch it.

I am not being mean I just know you can't just teach it what it can do but not what it cannot do and I do do that without hitting or kicking my dog, I would never do such a thing. I just tell it "no" in a firm tone and he listens, he is very familiar with the word so does indeed understand the sound is disapproving even if he does not know "words"


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

> My shoes are not left on the floor; my bag is hung-up, my gloves are in my coat-pockets, my scarf doesn't
> dangle invitingly, my belts are in the closet.
> 
> Adults who leave their "toys" lying-about are just as liable for their destruction as kids who leave
> ...


Very useful as a deterrent for messy OH though. In all our years together nothing has encouraged him to tidy up as much as having a chewy puppy  Now how do I train him to wash up :frown2:


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2014)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> Have you not read a word I've said in the past?
> I have already said that it works on my dog and many people I know of have discouraged their dog from chewing curtains and clothes by making it unpleasent when they do so but also make it pleasurable when they are good and leave those things alone.


You are not wrong. Adding an unpleasant stimulus to behavior you do not want does work to minimize the behavior.

However, what so many are trying to explain to you is that:
a) it is not necessary
b) there are many potential negative repercussions to training this way.

What you are talking about is called "positive punishment". It is one of the four quadrants of learning theory (five if you count extinction). All four quadrants are perfectly valid but it pays to understand each quadrant, how best to apply it, and know the potential pitfalls of each.

Positive punishment is difficult to apply correctly (look up Steve White's rules of punishment for how hard it is to really do punishment "right"), and has many other potential issues. 
Positive punishment can cause the dog's stress hormones to rise, which besides making a family dog less safe, also makes the dog less responsive to training in other areas. Many people who use positive punishment are the same people who complain about stubborn, un-trainable dogs. 
Positive punishment also makes your dog begin to associate you with unpleasantness which further adds to the dog not wanting to cooperate and connect with the handler. More "my dog won't respond to me" type issues.

Now, if you came on here with multiple titles on multiple dogs or any other kind of credibility and wanted to talk the benefit/risk factors of using positive punishment that's one thing. But you're not. You're just spouting off without really knowing what you're talking about, with a miserable attitude, and no apparent desire to want to learn anything further. Which frankly, is really a loss for you....


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> You people are only teaching the dog what it SHOULD do and not what it shouldn't so therefore the dog will do both


*NO IT WILL NOT!*

Is that clear enough? Please try reading the last few posts - they explain perfectly well why punishment is NOT necessary to stop unwanted behaviour. This claim has absolutely no basis in fact whatsoever, it is simply not rtrue.



> I am telling you all that you do have to teach a dog what is not acceptable to chew and what is not or you're forever running around hiding stuff whenever you leave the dog in alone in a room and you shouldn't have to do that.


That is possibly the most arrogant thing I've read in a long while!!

You do realise that most of the people you are talking to have decades of dog experience; have trained to a very high standard and/or rehabilitated seriously messed up rescue dogs; and in some cases are professional trainers / behaviourists?

They (inc me in my limited experience) and thousands of other knowledgable, competent dog owners have trained dogs perfectly well without using punishment.

Why is that so hard for you to understand or believe?

You used punishment. It worked. So? Doesn't mean your way is the only way. Other people choose not to use punishment, and still get the same - often better - results. Lower risk and more enjoyable too.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I do wonder if the OP just gets bored on occassions...it becomes futile and pointless going over the same stuff again and again, especially when it is blatantly obvious they they either do not understand, or just don't care to listen :yawn:

If you want to go around punishing your dog then there is little anyone else can do, but stop trying to ram it down peoples throats that do NOT fall for all this tosh


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## LeaderOfThePack (Nov 11, 2013)

Colette said:


> That is possibly the most arrogant thing I've read in a long while!!
> 
> You used punishment. It worked. So? Doesn't mean your way is the only way. Other people choose not to use punishment, and still get the same - often better - results. Lower risk and more enjoyable too.


I must stress I DO NOT PUNISH MY DOG. What I do is discipline my dog, which is a totally different thing altogether. I am not arrogant, I have tried different ways to train him, some have worked, some not. I have taken advisement from others and continue to gain experience into what is the best for my dog. The one thing I want to get across is that I am in no way cruel to him, I have never raised a hand to him and only use voice control, coupled with using hand gestures to indicate to the dog what I am referring to.
I feel sad that I have upset everyone, obviously I have not expressed things well. Looking back over everything on this forum, I have realised this and will endeavour to not make this mistake again.
I really appreciate any help people have given. Thank you.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colette said:


> *NO IT WILL NOT!*
> 
> Is that clear enough? Please try reading the last few posts - they explain perfectly well why punishment is NOT necessary to stop unwanted behaviour. This claim has absolutely no basis in fact whatsoever, it is simply not rtrue.
> 
> ...


Messed up by people who think they should discipline and/or punish their dog no doubt.



StormyThai said:


> I do wonder if the OP just gets bored on occassions...it becomes futile and pointless going over the same stuff again and again, especially when it is blatantly obvious they they either do not understand, or just don't care to listen :yawn:
> 
> If you want to go around punishing your dog then there is little anyone else can do, but stop trying to ram it down peoples throats that do NOT fall for all this tosh


Sounds just like my in-laws. If it isn't done their way, it is either wrong or you don't really mean it.



LeaderOfThePack said:


> I must stress I DO NOT PUNISH MY DOG. What I do is discipline my dog, which is a totally different thing altogether. I am not arrogant, I have tried different ways to train him, some have worked, some not. I have taken advisement from others and continue to gain experience into what is the best for my dog. The one thing I want to get across is that I am in no way cruel to him, I have never raised a hand to him and only use voice control, coupled with using hand gestures to indicate to the dog what I am referring to.
> I feel sad that I have upset everyone, obviously I have not expressed things well. Looking back over everything on this forum, I have realised this and will endeavour to not make this mistake again.
> I really appreciate any help people have given. Thank you.


Try your 'discipline' on two newfies weighing 10 stone and 12 stone respectively and see how far you get. Try dealing with this breed that have been bred for centuries to think for themselves, with your outdated methods and you will have an aggressive giant dog on your hands.

My dogs have never had punishment or discipline, just kind reward based training. They do as I want because I want it and they love me, no other reason. No, they are not perfectly trained. I don't want that, I like my dogs to have a bit of spirit, but I can usually control them when it counts. They are never thinking: _if I don't do that something awful will happen_ they are thinking _I'll do that and see if there is something in it for me_


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> I must stress I DO NOT PUNISH MY DOG. What I do is discipline my dog, which is a totally different thing altogether.


_discipline_

noun
1.
the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behaviour, using *punishment to correct disobedience.*

_punishment_

noun
1.
the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offence.

Just to help you out, as you seem to be a tad confused 

I notice my post has been ignored, funny how you only address posts that you can pick at....that is called selective reading/hearing


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

In the Village where I live there is a rather 'famous', (or infamous), twenty odd year old boy.

He is constantly seen around on his pushbike with two Staffy boys running along with him.

He trains his dogs with discipline and correction, nothing else, and they never leave his side. They don't react to other dogs, cats, no distraction whatsoever. They know better than that. When he stops, they stop and when he goes, they do.

They both look anxious and stressed, watch him nervously the whole time, so afraid are they to make a wrong move and every time he moves, the pair of them throw themselves on the floor, in a submissive position.

It isn't pleasant to see and it upsets me every time I see those dogs.

Have this fella's methods of training worked? Yes, in so far as those dogs daren't put a foot wrong.

Are they happy dogs? No, they certainly are not.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Discpline v punishment just seems like slapping a child v smacking same difference just one sounds better. They invented clicker training because well you could try to make a whale do what you want by force but I don't think it would work too well for you. Get an animal to work with you because they want to not because they have to and you'll see the difference.

I would pay to see a dominance trainer try to force an akita or an anatolian shepherd to submit. Well no I wouldn't because it would likely be labelled a dangerous dog :frown2:. The one time CM took on an akita and an akita mix as far as I remember there was a suspicious lack of alpha rolling.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> I must stress I DO NOT PUNISH MY DOG. What I do is discipline my dog, which is a totally different thing altogether.


For your benefit, and for any other Cesar Millan fans out there without a dictionary, who believe that discipline is not punishment -

*discipline*
ˈdɪsɪplɪn
noun
1.
the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behaviour, *using punishment to correct disobedience*.
"a lack of proper parental and school discipline"
synonyms:	control, regulation, direction, order, authority, rule, strictness, a firm hand; More
the controlled behaviour resulting from such training.
"he was able to maintain discipline among his men"
synonyms:	control, regulation, direction, order, authority, rule, strictness, a firm hand; More
activity that provides mental or physical training.
plural noun: disciplines
"the tariqa offered spiritual discipline"
a system of rules of conduct.
"he doesn't have to submit to normal disciplines"
2.
a branch of knowledge, typically one studied in higher education.
"sociology is a fairly new discipline"
synonyms:	field (of study), branch of knowledge, course of study, subject, area; More
verb
verb: discipline; 3rd person present: disciplines; past tense: disciplined; past participle: disciplined; gerund or present participle: disciplining
1.
train (someone) to obey rules or a code of behaviour, using punishment to correct disobedience.
"many parents have been afraid to discipline their children"
synonyms:	train, drill, teach, school, coach, educate, regiment, indoctrinate;​


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

In behavioural terms punishment is defined as something that reduces a behaviour. Positive punishment is something added to a situation. A verbal reprimand is indeed a form of positive punishment, as is a tug on the lead. Calling it discipline doesn't change that. 

Nobody is saying that you hurt your dog, but you do train using punishment and while this may be effective for you and your dog that doesn't mean it is necessary, nor does it mean that it isn't possible to achieve the same or better results some other way.

I'm on my phone so can't quote, but the bit I found arrogant was the point blank statement that you can't train dogs without punishment (which is untrue and easily disproven), especially when you start a sentence with 'I'm telling you...'

The reason people object to your advice is because your methods are simply not that great. They are often ineffective (many dogs simply ignore verbal reprimands, or you may teach the dog only to do that behaviour when you're not there), they are 'high risk' in that they may cause behavioural fallout, anxiety, even physical injury in the case of leash jerks, and finally they are unnecessary.

Let me ask you this, if it were possible to train your dog to an extremely high standard and overcome any behaviour problem using a method that was almost totally risk free, was fun for both parties, and only increased your bond rather than pitting you against eachother wouldn't you prefer to use it?


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2014)

LeaderOfThePack said:


> I must stress I DO NOT PUNISH MY DOG. What I do is discipline my dog, which is a totally different thing altogether.


What Colette said.

In behavioral science terms (this is the Dog Training and Behavior section of the forum, so it makes sense to use the behavioral science terms), punishment simply refers to anything that reduces the frequency of a behavior.

You may not be punishing your dog. If whatever you do (yell no, give him the evil eye, tut tut, yank the leash, whatever) doesnt diminish the behavior, its not punishment. 
I have a dog who got his face bashed in by a hoof chasing horses (in his previous home). Didnt diminish the chasing at all, so the kick to the face was not punishment. Ive seen dogs being yelled at, yanked on, etc., who continue to do what theyre being yelled at and yanked on for doing. The yelling and yanking is not punishment, its not diminishing the behavior.

On the other hand, Ive also seen handlers with more sensitive dogs loudly say good dog and enthusiastically pat the dog on the head, and these dogs ARE being punished even though their handlers believe they are rewarding them. It is the subsequent behavior that determines if something is punishing or rewarding. Punishment reduces behavior, rewards increase behaviors.

There is no such thing as training without punishment. There are four quadrants to learning theory, and all four are valid and useful. What is not necessary is positive punishment using force, fear, pain, or intimidation.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> The reason people object to your advice is because your methods are simply not that great.
> They're often ineffective (many dogs simply ignore verbal reprimands, or you may teach the dog only to do
> that behaviour when you're not there), they are 'high risk' in that they may cause behavioural fallout, anxiety,
> even physical injury in the case of leash jerks, and finally they are unnecessary.
> ...


*Yes!* 
tell me more, how's it work?...
.
.
.
.

.
.


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

I have had the misfortune of seeing discipline style methods at dog training. 
The first was an old fashioned but very educated ex-police/prison dog trainer. 
The methods he used involved selective use of choke chains, throwing chains on the floor and then lots of very intense positive training, lots of high pitch, animation and high value treat. All dogs loved him.
This man got very good results specifically with GSDs. Many of these dogs moved up the levels and ended up competing.These dogs often didn't need telling twice.
This style had a mixed response from other dogs. Newfies, Briards spaniels and pyrennean mountain dogs often were confused making the same mistakes over again and making very little progress. Terriers, whippets seemed to turn into nervous wrecks as did the flat coat retriever. Obviously this will also depend on how the owners interpreted the information. 
I felt that his results just showed that certain breeds were resilient to discipline and very responsive to positive. I feel these dogs would have been as good if not better if he had just used positive methods. 

Another trainer I saw used a basic if rather DIY positive style but then seemed to change tactic when it came to behavioural issues. Encouraging the owners to pin dogs and use cesar moves on them. This resulted in some very unstable dogs and a difficult place to train. I feel that this training was dangerous.

The trainer I liked best used very positive methods not even light pulling on leads. She had in class a very unstable dog who had been attacked on a walk and instead of banning them as I have heard other groups do she used her own dogs and positive approach to help the dog in her own time.


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