# Naughty Labrador (chocolate)



## Beckilouiselab (Mar 28, 2013)

Hi everyone, I'm sure this sort of topic has been posted before, but I'm a newbie, and thought I'd introduce myself at the same time!

I have a three year old chocolate Labrador and I'm fairly convinced he is two different dogs. Sometimes he is fantastic both on and off the lead, and is great with people all the time, however... 

He is a big dog for the breed (not overweight, just incredibly built; very strong) and his temperament is very playful, which manifests itself in undesirable ways, I.e. jumping up. Also, he is incredibly strong, and will happily pull on the lead until he passes out (hence, we have to use a haltie). No matter how much we do, he isn't improving, and today it culminated in him getting loose on a public concourse, and running riot in a manner all too similar to the film Marley and me. 

He isn't neutered (he is my parent's dog and they constantly put it off, even though I offer to pay) ... Could this be the problem? Sometimes he is a complete angel, and perfect with children and other dogs... But he obviously isn't aware of his size, and can be very boisterous. 

Sorry for the rant! I just don't know what to do anymore!


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Sounds like you need to start again with his training. Back to basics. Teach a rock solid "default behaviour" sit or down whichever seems to be his favourite. Teach any behaviour all over the house first, then in the garden and don't up the anti until he is "getting it" at least 80% of the time.
Have you tried clicker training? 
Never give any attention unless all four paws on the ground. Reward any behaviour you like if he offers it, ignore the rest. This means having treats in any or all rooms in the house. He will soon learn that a quiet sit or down means good things. Try to let him offer the default behaviour rather than telling him to sit, it will help him learn to think for himself.
Don't try to correct all the things that are not acceptable at once. Concentrate on one behaviour you find unacceptable.
Do think about teaching loose leash walking, there are loads of links and people will be along to give them I'm sure.
The title of your post is a good attention grabber, but no dog is naughty intentionally, it's just we are not consistent, or don't explain what we want very well. If there are several people involved with this boy's care they all need to sing off the same hymn sheet or he won't know where he is.
I can't comment about neutering changing behaviour, don't have the experience but at three I would neuter to prevent unwanted litters in the evnt of another escape!
Enjoy your dog and this forum - lots of good advice to be had - most of us have problems with our dogs sometimes ( or in my case - most of the time!!)


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

I used to call my dog's good days the anti-Fred. 

Castrating won't change this behaviour, he needs retraining. I'm looking after a chocolate lab with very similar behaviour and he was castrated ridiculously early as he broke a cat's jaw trying to mate with it at 5 months. So castrating doesn't play a part in it.

I've seen this behaviour in other choc labs as well, so someone, somewhere is breeding hyper labs and not doing a lovely breed any favours at all. 

I would seek a good trainer in your area. I've only had chocolate labs in my workshops (recall and lead pulling, with no jumping up in development!), never yellows or blacks.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Labs are much stronger than many people realise and many that I know pull terribly.

Are you using a double ended lead, one end clipped to the headcollar, and one end to the normal collar? I do this, I use the Ezy-dog double ended lead, I think it's the Vario 6.

I would step up the training; if your Lab is typical of the breed and loves food, then this is a good way. Start a 'nothing in life is free' programme - your dog does not get food nor treats UNLESS he first obeys a command.


JUMPING UP:

Potentially this is a real problem because your dog could really hurt someone. You all need to be on the same page: ANY TIME your dog leaps up, walk away - withdraw ALL ATTENTION for several minutes. Don't even say 'no' because that is still attention.

If you all do this, consistently, then your dog will learn that jumping up = lack of attention.

At the same time, reward your dog for sits or just standing and not jumping.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

BoredomBusters said:


> I used to call my dog's good days the anti-Fred.
> 
> Castrating won't change this behaviour, he needs retraining. I'm looking after a chocolate lab with very similar behaviour and he was castrated ridiculously early as he broke a cat's jaw trying to mate with it at 5 months. So castrating doesn't play a part in it.
> 
> ...


I can assure you there are plenty of yellow and black Labs out there who exhibit the same behaviours. I own one of them - happily I've managed to train him out of jumping and, for the most part, pulling on the lead.

I do agree that there are some really poor breeders of Choc Labs out there - this colour has become very popular and so plenty of people are jumping on the bandwagon and producing pups when they really should not be doing so because the parents are neither examples of great health NOR great temperaments


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I can assure you there are plenty of yellow and black Labs out there who exhibit the same behaviours. I own one of them - happily I've managed to train him out of jumping and, for the most part, pulling on the lead.
> 
> I do agree that there are some really poor breeders of Choc Labs out there - this colour has become very popular and so plenty of people are jumping on the bandwagon and producing pups when they really should not be doing so because the parents are neither examples of great health NOR great temperaments


And I can assure people reading there are well behaved chocolate Labs out there, honest!

I can only reiterate what's been said about going back to basics, chocolates are no different to yellow or black Labs, the only difference with any Labrador is the *type* of parents. Unfortunately, because chocolate Labs are popular pets, lots of people breed them for the sake of it, without considering the temperament of the parents, and there are a lot of nutty chocs out there who perpetuate the myth it's to do with the colour alone. If yellows had the same type of popularity, the same thing would happen with them, most of the ex puppy farmed bitches I see are chocolate, so it goes to show just how bad breeders can bring down the reputation of a breed, or in this case a colour within a breed. I've got three chocolate Labs, two bought and one I bred myself, the latter is a work in progress, she's like her mother was at her age, so I hope she grows into the same biddable character, she's less than a year old (just) and currently pushing boundaries, nevertheless I can walk her, her mother and my other dog (flatcoat) at the same time on slip leads alone, so they can't be that bad. Indie, my other chocolate Lab is so well trained I rarely use a lead on her where I live.


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

Chocolate labs are renowned for being slightly naughtier than other colours, but yes all labs and dogs can exhibit exactly the same issues! 

Labs are strong, i use a gencon for mine, absolute life saver! Im tiny so really helps me have full control. He has been on it for 3 years now an half the time when its not a busy place he can now walk on a slip lead because hes learnt with the gencon. It does improve, just be patient an consistent. The headcollor your using may not be strong enough. 

Go back to basics with all the training, if you are not sure hes going to have a good recall then use a long line for now. Perhaps play swapsies if he enjoys it, with mine i will throw one frisbe, then he will do a recall for his next frisbe. Anything that gets him focused and interested with you. 

Unfortunately there a breed with are excitable most of the time and lack manners if not kept on top of. Go over basic commands, when he jumps up turn your back, say off or no and ignore. Make sure everyone does this, you have to be consistent. 

Neutering can help, sometimes does, sometimes doesnt. IMO i believe its worth neutering anyway if not breeding and i do believe in most cAses it does calm dogs down and make them slightly more focused. But all dogs are different an you have to make sure training is the top priority.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

GermanShepardOwner said:


> Chocolate labs are renowned for being slightly naughtier than other colours, but yes all labs and dogs can exhibit exactly the same issues!
> 
> Labs are strong, i use a gencon for mine, absolute life saver! Im tiny so really helps me have full control. He has been on it for 3 years now an half the time when its not a busy place he can now walk on a slip lead because hes learnt with the gencon. It does improve, just be patient an consistent. The headcollor your using may not be strong enough.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but that *shouldn't* be true, unless from a breeder who hasn't thought about temperament. Labradors should be biddable, it's in the breed standard!

"Intelligent, keen and biddable, with a strong will to please. Kindly nature, with no trace of aggression or undue shyness."

Apols if that sounds a little terse, it's something that is a bit of a bug bear of mine, they are not supposed to be great big daft loons that jump all over people, they are a working breed that *should* have a desire to please. They are a victim of their own popularity unfortunately, not the fault of the dogs, but if they fit their breed standard, they should not all be big daft loons that jump all over everyone and everything.


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry, but that *shouldn't* be true, unless from a breeder who hasn't thought about temperament. Labradors should be biddable, it's in the breed standard!
> 
> "Intelligent, keen and biddable, with a strong will to please. Kindly nature, with no trace of aggression or undue shyness."
> 
> ...


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Even with good breeders, though, young Labs can be excitable and exuberant, I think...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Even with good breeders, though, young Labs can be excitable and exuberant, I think...


Out of interest, have you ever had any experience with a working bred youngster? I know you help out in rescue but didn't know if you'd come across m/any working bred dogs? They are completely different, the willingness to please oozes out of them in comparison to show/pet bred Labradors generally. They are constantly wanting to do *something* right for you, where as my experience with the show/pet bred dogs are that their level of biddability is much, much lower. If you can find a way to interact with them, it does bring that level of biddability up, because they then enjoy the interaction and want to get it right.

When I go training with Rhuna, the working bred young Labs we come across are all similar, none of them jump up, they're not all over people, they want to do what they were bred to do and have a huge desire to please their handler. That's not to say they don't have any fun, doing their *job* is their reward and you can see how much they enjoy it.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Our best behaved lab is chocolate (they came to be for training from day 1), and we had another one we called 'Gold Standard' we walked for a while. We've also got 2 well behaved and calm black labs, and a 'medium' yellow, who would be the same as the chocs if he wasn't so sadly overweight (has lost a lot in the year we've been walking him).

I've got a couple of chocs we've had to stop walking as they were so bad, one after just 6 weeks  Also a 6 month yellow who was also as bad, had her for boarding for a week once, and have been 'fully booked' ever since, so I know it's not just chocs. We just see more of that colour.

It is, unfortunately, making me not really very happy with the breed in general, which is very sad as I've seen some very calm and well behaved (mostly black) labs.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just before I disappear off to watch a film, and to give food for thought, Tau's litter contained pups of all three colours, so from a black sire, chocolate mum, I got two yellow, two black and two chocolate. The temperament they have all inherited should be the same, colour has nothing to do with it, just the breeding


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just before I disappear off to watch a film, and to give food for thought, Tau's litter contained pups of all three colours, so from a black sire, chocolate mum, I got two yellow, two black and two chocolate. The temperament they have all inherited should be the same, colour has nothing to do with it, just the breeding


I've never believed chocs are more stupid, and not sure what the genetics are, but if people are breeding poor temperament dogs that are mostly chocolate, then won't it become a choc problem? ie I assume its recessive (but could be wrong) so if two poor chocs are mated and you get mostly chocs and so on through the generations...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> When I go training with Rhuna, the working bred young Labs we come across are all similar, none of them jump up, they're not all over people, they want to do what they were bred to do and have a huge desire to please their handler. That's not to say they don't have any fun, doing their *job* is their reward and you can see how much they enjoy it.


But is that the fact that they're working bred or is it because they have an owner who knows what they're doing? Or perhaps a bit of both?

Spencer is typical of most of the Labs I've known in that he's over exuberant and bouncy (we're working on it). He's far more independent than most of them though and not as inclined to jump to do your bidding. If I keep him engaged with me almost the entire walk he's a dream, if I don't...well, let's just say he fits right in with the huskies we know  I have no idea what lines he's from but he's high energy, highly intelligent and certainly not the easy going, placid, calm dog people keep telling me Labradors are.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Even [when bred by] good breeders, though, young Labs can be excitable & exuberant, I think...


Labs' besetting sin is their all-in, full-on, full-CONTACT behavior, until & unless they are taught better.


they wrestle, body-slam, hip-slam, shoulder-bump, & jump-on everyone & every thing.
They're intrusive, persistent, rude, bumptious, & have remarkably hard-heads, :001_tt2: especially when they 
are ramming said head, nose-first, into soft body-parts, or head-butting some poor dweeb who's caught 
head-down rummaging in a tote, reaching into a cupboard, or otherwise momentarily vulnerable. 

SOME humans [trans: 'mostly men'] find this behavior endearing & engaging; most humans, dog-lovers or not, 
find it bloody dam*ed irritating. Being knocked tail over teacup by some careening dog-twit, then told by 
the cheerful owner of said k9-twit, _"oh, sorry - s/he's *just playing!"...*_ often results in bad language. :cursing:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...Tau's litter contained pups of all 3 colours[:] from a black sire & chocolate [dam], I got two yellow,
> two black and two chocolate. The temperament they have all inherited should be the same, *colour has
> nothing to do with it*, just the breeding


[wincing] i know i shall regret this, but i will post it anyway:

Color DOES make a difference, physiologically & even behaviorally. Often it's a tendency or it's minor;
sometimes it's a definite trait and it's major, depending upon the species, & the specific breed or strain.

REDHEADS in humans are more-sensitive to pain, require more anaesthesia to stay unconscious of pain, 
& are more-likely to have 'awake to pain' / conscious surgeries vs black-haired, brunettes, or blondes.

similarly, CHESTNUTS in horses have literally-thinner skins, are more likely to develop rubs, galls, & sores, 
are more sensitive to insect-bites [rear, kick, stamp, bolt...], react more to touch, & so on.

red-&-white Springers & buff Cockers [buff = dilute red] are more-likely to develop aggression problems: 
'Springer rage', dog:dog aggro, bite humans [especially groomers or vets], etc.

Wm. E. Campbell [a well-known USA dog-trainer] who wrote several excellent books on training & dogs, 
stated that statistically in his experience, black Labs were more likely to be dog-aggro, & yellow more-likely 
to be human-aggro. As a behaviorist, he saw many more cases than the average trainer, & worse cases 
than the usual folks who simply want to teach manners to their dog. His typical client owned a dog with
some sort of chronic unwanted behavior. [They weren't wanting to teach a reliable on-cue SIT - altho that, 
too, can help control unwanted behavior.]

there's more, but i think i'll flee while the fleeing is good... ε=ε=┏( *_*)┛


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Beckilouiselab said:


> Hi everyone, I'm sure this sort of topic has been posted before, but I'm a newbie, and thought I'd introduce myself at the same time!
> 
> I have a three year old chocolate Labrador and I'm fairly convinced he is two different dogs. Sometimes he is fantastic both on and off the lead, and is great with people all the time, however...
> 
> ...


He's a Lab - his colour is irrelevant - there have been some BYB and PF that have bred solely for colour with no thought to health and temperament - and this doesn't help the bad image Chocolate Labs get.

The colour genes are inextricably linked - I've had four chocolate labs, three at present aged 10 and 5 (there is three weeks between the two 5 year old) - when we got my eldest - I wondered what all the fuss was about Labs - end of.

My next Lab was yellow - she was bonkers then and at 7 she is STILL Bonkers - but she has burrowed into my heart DEEP. My current youngest is a yellow - a docile, easy going non destructive boy who likes to keep something in his mouth - then my youngest girl is black - and she is completely and utterly bonkers - if I left her out unsupervised - I wouldn't have a house left  (she's 4 this year - and grand-daughter of the eldest (non-destructive chocolate) - the latter of which has suddenly got a new lease of life as she speeds towards her 10th birthday this weekend 

Without knowing the breeding it's impossible to say whether there are issues with the lines (and TBH - they still aren't as common as reputation may have you believe).

It's just quite simply that many Labradors still think they are puppies at 8/10/12 years - like my 7 year old who has lived every day like a puppy 

On the rare occasions I have a litter - I insist prospective owners meet my adult dogs first - because they are teeny weeny crocs for a few weeks, and rather large puppies for a lot longer 

ETA - my chocolate boy still thinks he's a puppy - he is also the most tolerant, unphasable, easy going dog I've ever had the pleasure to meet (and working in kennels boarding 64 dogs throughout my teens plus those I've owned and met - that's a LOT of dogs) - it's almost impossible to find the right words to describe him he's so easy going.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Out of interest, have you ever had any experience with a working bred youngster? I know you help out in rescue but didn't know if you'd come across m/any working bred dogs? They are completely different, the willingness to please oozes out of them in comparison to show/pet bred Labradors generally. They are constantly wanting to do *something* right for you, where as my experience with the show/pet bred dogs are that their level of biddability is much, much lower. If you can find a way to interact with them, it does bring that level of biddability up, because they then enjoy the interaction and want to get it right.
> 
> When I go training with Rhuna, the working bred young Labs we come across are all similar, none of them jump up, they're not all over people, they want to do what they were bred to do and have a huge desire to please their handler. That's not to say they don't have any fun, doing their *job* is their reward and you can see how much they enjoy it.


I would agree, when there is focus - there is total focus! However, if Pippa had little stimulation and exercise, i'm sure she would be a very different dog! Pippa is totally focussed on the tennis ball that I use when training - she will heel off lead, sit, lie down, everything for the joy of having the ball in her mouth and bringing it back to me! The most rewarding thing for me is when I put my hands out wide on the return recall, her facial expression changes, it is pure joy! Pippa would be all over other people given the choice though, if I didn't keep her attention on me!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Out of interest, have you ever had any experience with a working bred youngster? I know you help out in rescue but didn't know if you'd come across m/any working bred dogs? They are completely different, the willingness to please oozes out of them in comparison to show/pet bred Labradors generally. They are constantly wanting to do *something* right for you, where as my experience with the show/pet bred dogs are that their level of biddability is much, much lower. If you can find a way to interact with them, it does bring that level of biddability up, because they then enjoy the interaction and want to get it right.
> 
> When I go training with Rhuna, the working bred young Labs we come across are all similar, none of them jump up, they're not all over people, they want to do what they were bred to do and have a huge desire to please their handler. That's not to say they don't have any fun, doing their *job* is their reward and you can see how much they enjoy it.


I've met Labs from working lines but they're not *being* worked, if that makes sense?

So fair point SL  I'm going mostly by the Labs I know, none of whom are 'working' dogs as such, no


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Labs' besetting sin is their all-in, full-on, full-CONTACT behavior, until & unless they are taught better.
> 
> 
> they wrestle, body-slam, hip-slam, shoulder-bump, & jump-on everyone & every thing.
> ...





leashedForLife said:


> [wincing] i know i shall regret this, but i will post it anyway:
> 
> Color DOES make a difference, physiologically & even behaviorally. Often it's a tendency or it's minor;
> sometimes it's a definite trait and it's major, depending upon the species, & the specific breed or strain.
> ...


So how do you account from Tau's litter, all three colours? Should I expect the chocolates to be nutty, the yellows to be blonde and the blacks to be serious? No study can fully appreciate the colour, the breeding, the handler skills, all studies will be flawed from that perspective. The type of person to buy a chocolate Labrador puppy is someone who has done a bit of research, likes the idea of a *chocolate* Labrador, and buys one. They have little or no handling skilles, and there you go, self perpetuating myth has been perpetuated.

Just while I'm editing tidying up what I quoted from you, they wrestle? They body slam?? That is not what a Labrador is or should be about. Whoever breeds Labradors of that sort of temperament is not really thinking about what they're doing. I play with my girls, but the minute I want them to pay attention they are there.



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I've met Labs from working lines but they're not *being* worked, if that makes sense?
> 
> So fair point SL  I'm going mostly by the Labs I know, none of whom are 'working' dogs as such, no


If you come across a working bred pup with a handler who has a fair idea, you would be astounded, they almost train themselves compared to other gundogs. As the saying goes, Labradors are born half trained, spaniels die half trained.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> Labs' besetting sin is their all-in, full-on, full-CONTACT behavior, until & unless they are taught better.
> 
> 
> they wrestle, body-slam, hip-slam, shoulder-bump, & jump-on everyone & every thing.
> ...


*I see you've met Dex?* :lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Spencer is typical of most of the Labs I've known... over-exuberant & bouncy... more independent than most...
> & not as inclined to jump to do your bidding.
> [SNIP]
> 
> ...


Have U read the description by John Katz of his Brit Flab-Labs?
Easy-going to the point of caricature, hated water & slept on dry-sand at the beach vs play fetch in surf,
dull as ditchwater & dumb as rocks but sweet... both had heart-problems, IIRC, as well as joint-ills early, 
& both died [again IIRC] of complications due to their heart-troubles exacerbated by obesity.

i DON't like Katz' training or handling skills, IMO he's an APO who was sent an insane BC by the breeder & he turned 
that catastrophe into a profitable series of books; however, i think his Flab-Labs are poster-boys for sweet,
plodding, biddable, affectionate, compliant Labs... who, IME, are rare. They exist, but they're not common.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

SLEEPING LION - do you think it's also partly or more than partly that folk with working Labs are more skilled handlers and more experienced, as SARAH1983 notes?

When I look back to my first six months with Dex, I was clueless. I'm still a novice now of course, but if I'd known then what I know now, I'd have been able to get his attention and focus much more easily.


RE CHOC LABS:

My brother and SIL recently fostered a lovely little Choc girl, poor thing had been living on a puppy farm and the ba$tards had bred from her three times, they didn't care that with each labour she'd SCREAMED with pain. Anyway, this girl is such a biddable Lab - perfect recall from the minute my brother met her.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> SLEEPING LION - do you think it's also partly or more than partly that folk with working Labs are more skilled handlers and more experienced, as SARAH1983 notes?
> 
> When I look back to my first six months with Dex, I was clueless. I'm still a novice now of course, but if I'd known then what I know now, I'd have been able to get his attention and focus much more easily.
> 
> ...


No, definitely not. A lot of folks, including myself, point choc Lab pup enquiries towards Di Stevens of Wylanbriar, she's shown Labs for a number of years, and worked show bred Labradors. Within the last couple of years she's added two field trial bred Labradors to her *pack*, I remember her posting about them automatically walking to heel. They are that much more biddable.

If you think about a puppy farmed bitch, they have little human contact, so crave it, they've had no praise for anything they get right, so crave that. It doesn't take much skill or imagination to work out why they seem to adjust and work out quite well for new homes.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

There is NOTHING wrong with Chocolate Labs, it isnt the colour that makes temprament/ bad behaviour etc its the individual dog, I know I have had a choc and believe me she was the best, calmest dog I have ever owned and I have owned a few Labs


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> *I see you've met Dex?* :lol:


haven't had the... errrm, undoubtedly delightful pleasure. :blushing: Probly one of his cousins!


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Out of interest, have you ever had any experience with a working bred youngster? I know you help out in rescue but didn't know if you'd come across m/any working bred dogs? They are completely different, the willingness to please oozes out of them in comparison to show/pet bred Labradors generally. They are constantly wanting to do *something* right for you, where as my experience with the show/pet bred dogs are that their level of biddability is much, much lower. If you can find a way to interact with them, it does bring that level of biddability up, because they then enjoy the interaction and want to get it right.
> 
> When I go training with Rhuna, the working bred young Labs we come across are all similar, none of them jump up, they're not all over people, they want to do what they were bred to do and have a huge desire to please their handler. That's not to say they don't have any fun, doing their *job* is their reward and you can see how much they enjoy it.


I have to make a small point here: the working dogs you come across in training don't jump up etc because they've been _trained_. Pet/show/working, it doesn't matter - if they've been trained not to jump up they won't jump up.

Just because they are working bred doesn't mean they automatically want to please the handler - they can just as quickly learn to please no one save themselves! The advantage of (most) working bred Labs is that under the correct nurturing they are easier on the whole than show Labs to encourage them to work with you.

If Labs of any breeding and colour aren't taken into control at an early age they _will_ be boisterous and difficult to control. I see many, many Labs of all type of breeding coming into clinic; sadly the majority are excitable, out-of-control and difficult to handle. Even the working bred ones, biddable as they are, won't work with us if they haven't been trained to cooperate calmly.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

shamykebab said:


> I have to make a small point here: the working dogs you come across in training don't jump up etc because they've been _trained_. Pet/show/working, it doesn't matter - if they've been trained not to jump up they won't jump up.
> 
> Just because they are working bred doesn't mean they automatically want to please the handler - they can just as quickly learn to please no one save themselves! The advantage of (most) working bred Labs is that under the correct nurturing they are easier on the whole than show Labs to encourage them to work with you.
> 
> If Labs of any breeding and colour aren't taken into control at an early age they _will_ be boisterous and difficult to control. I see many, many Labs of all type of breeding coming into clinic; sadly the majority are excitable, out-of-control and difficult to handle. Even the working bred ones, biddable as they are, won't work with us if they haven't been trained to cooperate calmly.


You can make as many small points as you like. There is a huge difference between working bred and show bred Labradors. I own show bred, my ex owned working bred, I have a fairly broad experience of both.

Show/pet bred Labradors do not have the same biddability, not JUST my own opinion, but the opinion of both those with working and show bred dogs.

Handling *can* make a difference, but genetics play a huge part.


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Yes, genetics play a part, but they're worthless if they haven't been utilized.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

shamykebab said:


> Yes, genetics play a part, but they're worthless if they haven't been utilized.


That's a very generic statement.

You say that the working Labs I've come across don't jump up because they've been trained not to. That's simply not the case (and I'm slightly worried you've been following me round for a number of years). The working Labs I've come across vary, some will try to jump up, some don't at all, some are flat to the floor without any perceived reason why. ALL of my show bred Labs jump up, it's not something I've discouraged to be honest, because I don't want to discourage them from coming in with enthusiasm for a delivery. The flatcoat, who is dual purpose, has a hit and miss delivery, but when it's good, it's very, very good. She also jumps up, but the minute the training hat comes on, she's all ears (or as much as the breed standard calls for).


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> and I'm slightly worried you've been following me round for a number of years


   What?

As for the rest of your post, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

shamykebab said:


> What?
> 
> As for the rest of your post, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.


It was a joke, obviously you need a sense of humour transplant.

You can agree to disagree if you like. Having had experience of both show and working bred Labradors I see a diffference. Do you own show bred Labradors?


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Not currently, but have done in the past. There is still one old show bred yellow at my grandmother's.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

shamykebab said:


> Not currently, but have done in the past. There is still one old show bred yellow at my grandmother's.


And you've never noticed a difference?

The first working trials classes I went to with Indie, I was reliably informed about the difference between show and working bred Labs and that many chocolate Labs were perceived as *nutty* because of their breeding.

Since dabbling in the gundog world, I've seen a huge difference, but then when I first started in Labradors, my handling skills were very basic.


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Yes, I've definitely noticed a difference in trainability and biddability (which is why I now own working!). 

My point was that if a dog isn't trained it doesn't matter what breeding stock it comes from, it will still be out of control.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

shamykebab said:


> I have to make a small point here: the working dogs you come across in training don't jump up etc because they've been _trained_. Pet/show/working, it doesn't matter - if they've been trained not to jump up they won't jump up.
> 
> Just because they are working bred doesn't mean they automatically want to please the handler - they can just as quickly learn to please no one save themselves! The advantage of (most) working bred Labs is that under the correct nurturing they are easier on the whole than show Labs to encourage them to work with you.
> 
> If Labs of any breeding and colour aren't taken into control at an early age they _will_ be boisterous and difficult to control. I see many, many Labs of all type of breeding coming into clinic; sadly the majority are excitable, out-of-control and difficult to handle. Even the working bred ones, biddable as they are, won't work with us if they haven't been trained to cooperate calmly.





shamykebab said:


> Yes, I've definitely noticed a difference in trainability and biddability (which is why I now own working!).
> 
> My point was that if a dog isn't trained it doesn't matter what breeding stock it comes from, it will still be out of control.


That is your experience, mine is that working bred Labs will do *anything* to please. Yes, working Labs can be mucked up the same as show or pet bred Labs, but in general, and a very generalised quote from someone switching to working bred from show bred, it's as if they were born to walk to heel.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

shamykebab said:


> ...I've definitely noticed a difference in trainability & biddability (which is why I now own working!).


Kebab, 
from Ur post & SL's i'm presuming that hunting-Lab lines in the UK are widely accepted as being *more* biddable,
trainable, & generally compliant [once they know what's wanted, of course].

i'm confused, as my personal experience is that hunting-lines Labs in the USA are "hot", hard to train or control, 
often wild-hunters [escape to hunt game on their own], may chase & kill poultry or squirrels & cats, 
& are often *not* at all easily-trained by the APO, or even by Lab-experienced pet-owners who've reared 
show / pet-lines previously.

this WAS NOT true in the 1980s, but thru the 90s & into the present, it became more & more the rule: 
Hunting-lines Labs in the USA are hotheads who are phenomenally destructive, wrecking the house,
incredibly active, unable to settle, & manic; they'll eat, chew, or shred anything that's perforable,
can escape Fort Knox or Alcatraz, blow-thru electric fences as if they're crepe-paper bunting, & eat
dynamite for breakfast. ***
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
*** All of this is true, i swear... except the 'dynamite' bit. 

Show / pet-lines, OTOH, are 'normal' dogs; some are lethargic layabouts, mostly the Brit-type with 
near-Mastiff skulls & big-bodies that put on fat if the so much as LOOK at food; the rest are just Labs, 
goofy & bumptious but trainable, not wild-eyed or zoomie-addicted.

It sounds like our [UK vs USA] Lab-lines characters are reversed?... :blink: with US-hunting Labs being hot
& crazed, while in the UK that's the show / pet Flabs. This is bizarre!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Kebab,
> *from Ur post & SL's i'm presuming that hunting-Lab lines in the UK are widely accepted as being more biddable,
> trainable, & generally compliant [once they know what's wanted, of course].
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right that in the US working lines are considered hot and hard to train. Our working/hunting labs are not, and are quite prized in the US because of their biddability and ease as living as a 'house' dog (they make excellent family pets). They are often referred to as 'gentleman's labradors' in the US 

British Field Labradors in the US.

For the most part this is down to breeding. In the US, electric collars are used. The methods can disguise faults which are then passed on. In the UK, a combination of our training methods and the sort of dogs that is required in the field, means that selection for temperament, biddability, steadiness etc, as well as working abilities is paramount and breeding plays a large part in this.

Another reason is the demands or our field trials which obviously influences what traits we look for when breeding.

Wildrose Kennels - About British Field Trials
PS The commonly understood term of British Labradors in the US, refers to the heavier show bred labs. Our working/field trial labs are not the heavyweights of the show world, so there is some confusion.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Well all I can say is that it's no wonder the average person has the idea that Labs are easy dogs who need no training then


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> Have U read the description by John Katz of his Brit Flab-Labs?
> Easy-going to the point of caricature, hated water & slept on dry-sand at the beach vs play fetch in surf,
> dull as ditchwater & dumb as rocks but sweet... both had heart-problems, IIRC, as well as joint-ills early,
> & both died [again IIRC] of complications due to their heart-troubles exacerbated by obesity.
> ...


I've read two of Katz's books about that poor, poor BC, Orson - I found them very upsetting. He should NEVER have taken on that dog. I have no idea WHY any breeder would have wanted him to adopt a BC that was already having problems when his experience was with Labs.

As for his handling skills - his idea of being a good dog owner is to walk two dogs off lead at all times. I was not impressed.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> ...it's no wonder the [APO thinks] that Labs are easy dogs who need no training, then


Ha! ...even the Aibo needs training, as well as batteries.


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## Beckilouiselab (Mar 28, 2013)

Thank you so much for all the replies to this thread! I've had a great time reading through them... I am definitely going to take on board what has been said about retraining. He can be absolutely brilliant, but he isn't consistent, especially if he gets excited.

He's a gorgeous dog, very, very affectionate; loves cuddles, and loves people, but sometimes this isn't expressed in brilliant ways, and even though he is the most submissive dog I have ever met (I don't think I've ever heard him growl, and normally if another dog isn't friendly, he just walks away, or looks at us for reassurance), if he gets too excited... It's like he can't control himself; he genuinely struggles to sit still, and I don't think the locals like him much  

I am going to go to the pet shop today, and have a talk with my parents, because, to be honest, I think they're a bit lost! 

I will keep everyone updated of Archie's progress! And thanks again for the advice. I believe he is a gorgeous dog with so much affection and zest, that he just doesn't know what to do with all of it


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Beckilouiselab said:


> It's like he can't control himself; he genuinely struggles to sit still


This was Spencer when I got him. Look into impulse control exercises you can do with him, it's made a HUGE difference with Spen. Even little things like sitting and waiting to be released through a door or leaving food until told to take it can help. The dvd Crate Games is a good one which, despite the name, could easily be adapted for a mat or something if you don't have a crate.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

He sounds lovely 

If you haven't tried it yet, then the 'watch me' works really well but you need to practise it. If you'd like more details feel free to PM me, I'm certainly no expert but have found the 'watch me' works wonders with my own very excitable and highly strung Lab


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I've read two of Katz's books about that poor, poor BC, Orson - *I found them very upsetting. He should NEVER
> have taken on that dog.* I have no idea WHY any breeder would have wanted him to adopt a BC that was
> already having problems when his experience was with Labs.
> 
> ...


:nonod: U & me both, sista.

Orson's arrival at the airport was only an omen of things to come: releasing a dog he described as a 
"black & white dervish" IN THE CARGO-TERMINAL WITH THE DOORS OPEN, & spectating as the dog streaks 
out of the crate, & into the rainy night!, with airport personnel in hot pursuit.

DoG help us all, why couldn't he see that taking the CRATE home & releasing the dog inside a fully
enclosed, quiet, secure place [like his own garage!] with the car-doors CLOSED so he can get 
a leash on the dog, if need be by slipping a fat lead over his head in a running loop, is so much safer? :crazy:

Plus, after he *dropped the leash* on this wild-eyed, manic dog for the 3rd time, i wrote him off;
even a kid past 8 or 9-YO knows better than that, unless it's for a purpose in an emergency [release the dog
from the leash to flee from an approaching dog who's intent on serious aggro, for instance].

Katz did so many things wrong, i lost most of my empathy for him entirely, & felt badly only for the dog, 
in the hands of a well-meaning but utterly ignorant man who hadn't a clue how to handle MOST normal dogs,
let alone an aggressive, unpredictable, driven, obsessive fruitcake with more problems than there are 
sand-grains on a beach.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> :nonod: U & me both, sista.
> 
> Orson's arrival at the airport was only an omen of things to come: releasing a dog he described as a
> "black & white dervish" IN THE CARGO-TERMINAL WITH THE DOORS OPEN, & spectating as the dog streaks
> ...


Remember the bit where he had the 'battle of wills' and *threw* Orson? I could not believe what I was reading.

I also blame the fruitcake of a breeder who pressured Katz to take Orson in the first place. She didn't do that poor dog any favours, that's for sure


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