# What do you think of this advice ?



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

If you were to buy a kitten and allow it into your bedroom at night and it nipped your toes but then came up purring and snuggled in until waking and resuming the toe nipping etc etc as kittens do.....and you asked your vet for advice on the problem and he said 

"pick it up by the scruff of the neck and throw it to the floor" ?

Would you do this ? 

I am just interested in what others think of this advice, I think it is absolute shizer and may follow up this with a call to "the vet" but then I could be wrong, possibly. 

Any advice and comments welcomed!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

That sounds awful. I've never had a kitten nip my toes before, but wouldn't a simple No be suffice? Also if you wanted to put it on the floor, couldn't you just pick it up gently without picking it up by the scruff of the neck?

Also, that vet's advice is bad, because you should never pick up an animal by the scruff of the neck without supporting its hindquarters. If you need to hold the animal firmly and securely (for example if its aggressive at the vets), you should place it on the table and scruff the neck and firmly hold it. There's no need to pick it up by its scruff. It's like picking a rabbit up by its ears, which is very very wrong.


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## Kaitlyn (Apr 28, 2010)

Water pistol under the pillow sounds less painful. Did the vet get out the wrong side of the bed that morning? 

Harley used to go into overdrive and attack the lumps under the duvet but i just took to shutting him in his crate for the night with his bed, toys, food, water and tray. He never nipped toes though.. just used me like a springboard :lol:


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Oh good I thought I was over-reacting. I tried to phone the vet concerned but I forgot it's Saturday and they are closed.

Thankfully this toe biting kitten is now with a new owner, I collected him as soon as I heard what they were doing to him.

He is now with a lovely lady who does not let him in the bedroom and has had no problems at all with him, when I collected him from the people who picked him by the neck he was a very scared kitty! Poor boy. Bl&&dy Vet! 

I will phone him on Monday.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Milly22 said:


> If you were to buy a kitten and allow it into your bedroom at night and it nipped your toes but then came up purring and snuggled in until waking and resuming the toe nipping etc etc as kittens do.....and you asked your vet for advice on the problem and he said
> 
> "pick it up by the scruff of the neck and throw it to the floor" ?
> 
> ...


No I wouldn't …. But….

when I first got involved with cat-rescue work (wayyy back in the late 70s early 80s) it was the usual way back then of dealing with cat behavioural problems. Not that I even think a kitten nipping your toes is a behavioural problem, it's just a kitten being a kitten.

I just mean more…. Things have changed *so* much over the years with regards to how we treat problem behavior in our cats/dogs/horses and even children. I can still remember the days when vets and rescue workers recommended "rubbing their nose in it" for cats or kittens who didn't quite make it to the litter tray. I remember thinking at the time this didn't add up, would we rub our children's nose in their dirty knickers if they had an accident at their kindergarten? But, sadly it was the advice bandied about at the time - and as I was just a dumb school kid, no one paid much attention to me when I said I thought it was cruel and unnecessary.

A few weeks back someone on the forum ran the gauntlet when they recommended penning a badly behaved or aggressive kitten for 5 or 10 minutes ( a kind of kitten "time out"). This person had a family member who was a vet and this vet had used this technique with a lot of success over the years. It's not the modern techniques widely used now, but that is not to say it can't be used with a high rate of success… and the same can said for a lot of the old fashioned techniques too.

Many of us in our 40s were smacked by our parents and belted at school…. We shudder at it now, but we turned out (on the whole) okay and none the worse for it. It was the "done thing" at that time.

I think what I am trying to say in a very roundabout way…. No I would never tell someone to scruff their kitten and throw it on the ground just because it playfully nipped their toes. I am guessing (HOPING!) the vet who gave this information was well over 40, hopefully nearer 90, lol. But I cannot deny I have seen this technique used successfully -- I just think there are more ways that lead to Rome, and personally I would rather chose one of the other (nicer, more animal friendly) roads to take me to Rome.

That's not to say though that I don't think you should follow this up with the vet… I think you should. Just keep an open mind that maybe he has tons of experience with techniques like this working successfully. Again though, I raised plenty of cats successfully on a dry kibble diet -- it didn't mean when I got access to better feline diet information that I was against change. But many people live by the old motto of "if it's not broke, don't fix it". And they are scared of change or unwilling to embrace it, or even consider it.

Do let us know, if you do pursue it with the vet, how he or she reacts. Been there, done that, and have the ear bashings to prove it, lol. Some vets will react positively to breeders and feline foster parents, and accept that they (the breeders/foster parents) often do have a lot more hands-on experience with certain things than they (the vets) do.... but... a lot of vets get very irate when you disagree with them, lol. Not that it would stop me giving the vet in question my tuppence worth on the matter 

best of luck!!


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2010)

I agree with Tje that it was once a widely excepted pratice as it was supposedly mimicking the mothers behaviour that she scruffs the kittens when they are young to stop them fighting getting into trouble etc. 

Is your Vet practice a mixed one Milly22 with equine/farm vets too as this is usually advice from older vets or ones that treat all variety of animals rather than just deal with small animals.


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## Sorcha (Oct 19, 2009)

The first thing that went through my mind when I read the first post was; Probably and old school vet. It used to be the way to treat ill behaved cats, just like Tje said.
No I would never give that advice, or do it myself 
Specially since this is not even an ill behaving cat


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

It was an older Vet practice, I homed a kitten with a couple, the kitten was a bit hyper as he was an only kitten, had I had another kitten I wouldn't have let Charlie go to this couple as she is very "ornament paranoid" and he was a jumper.

If he had been a little kitten, this may have worked but Charlie, although only 16 weeks now, he is the size of my 6 month old kitten, the man also bloomin hit him. 

The lady reminds me very much of Stacies mum on Eastenders (if you watch that) very anxious, I think this rubbed off on Charlie.

The first piece of advice I would have gave them and did, was do not let him in your bedroom but she wouldn't listen,this resulted in 2 weeks interrupted sleep and the man taking the "lifting by neck" a tad further and whacking him.

I wouldn't mind but my girls don't lift their kittens by the neck, poor boy would have been highly confused after having VIP treatment here.

Ahhh at least he is happy now. the vet also said he had "behavioural problems and agression on his last visit (the day I drove in and collected him after their phone call)" which have suddenly dissapeared!!


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## Spook (Aug 10, 2010)

I would never spray a cat with a water pistol/gun (especially a kitten) or throw it on the floor if it was being naturally playful. The best advice to give is if you don't like your kitten jumping all over you at night put him in his own room. 

Sounds like very, very outdated information!


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

I cant believe I am reading this.Poor kitten and poor you.I, as you know ,did not behave in that way with Meeko and he was aggressive with behavioural problems.If I had it would have made him worse.I would have been delighted to have a kitten nipping my toes not one that was tearing lumps out of my arms to the point they bled.The behaviourist I went to for Meeko outlawed scruffing and spraying with water and any physical punishment ,as it was counter productive.Hope he is ok.


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

If a vet said that too me, I would change my vet.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Steverags said:


> If a vet said that too me, I would change my vet.


Unfortunately it is their Vet not mine. I will still phone him. Charlie is fine now with lovely new owner who gives him all the attention he needs and she has never been happier, so thankfully it has a happy ending but I can honestly say I have never seen a cats personality change so much in 2 weeks.

She needs a goldfish, not a kitten.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Some interesting comments....and a particular 'Thank you ' to Tje for a considered response reminding us all that old fashioned ways are not always necessarily cruel, though often too harsh for modern times.
Of course kittens can try our patience ( Mitzy still loves to _repeatedly_ lick and bite my nose from around 5am onwards ) but we have to remember they are just learning the boundaries and maybe adjust OUR behavior to suit theirs! ( Balaclava for me then )


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Paddypaws said:


> reminding us all that old fashioned ways are not always necessarily cruel, though often too harsh for modern times.


I think we do sometimes get carried away with our new fangled techniques and often forget that people have sucessfully been rearing cats for years. Fashions change. Training techniques change. What's advocated today will be frowned upon tomorrow. I would never advocate any cruel measure for training cats (or any animal), but I do think we have to distinguish between what is actually cruel, and what is just not fashionable at this moment in time.

I feel we are wayyyyy too quick to label too many things as cruel.

And people do also tend to forget that many roads do lead to Rome, and many of those raods are equally animal friendly, but very different.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Tje said:


> I think we do sometimes get carried away with our new fangled techniques and often forget that people have sucessfully been rearing cats for years. Fashions change. Training techniques change. What's advocated today will be frowned upon tomorrow. I would never advocate any cruel measure for training cats (or any animal), but I do think we have to distinguish between what is actually cruel, and what is just not fashionable at this moment in time.
> 
> I feel we are wayyyyy too quick to label too many things as cruel.
> 
> And people do also tend to forget that many roads do lead to Rome, and many of those raods are equally animal friendly, but very different.


Whatever they were doing to him was cruel, he was a beautiful, purring kitten reduced to a nervous wreck.

My father used to rub our dogs nose in poo if done indoors too but not in a harsh way.

These ex-owners have to the vets advice and have been THROWING the kitten to the floor, the gripping the neck I understand but when does a mother cat ever THROW her kitten from a height to the floor.

I understand what you are saying but right now am still too angry to say "we done it years ago so it's okay"!

We didn't have Ragdolls years ago, they are very sensitive cats, the poor boy had his head down and I could see the fear in his eyes.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Milly22 said:


> Whatever they were doing to him was cruel, he was a beautiful, purring kitten reduced to a nervous wreck.
> 
> My father used to rub our dogs nose in poo if done indoors too but not in a harsh way.
> 
> ...


 yeah but I was referring to the advice the vet gave, and not the way the new owners interpreted that advice. The vet's advice is not necessarily cruel.... depending on how it's interpreted it could become cruel. But so could very many things recommended daily on this forum. Everything depends on people receiving advice with a dash of common sense.

My parents smacked me... it did me a lot of good and no damage at all, it was never more than a gentle smack on a tough body part. That is not denying the fact that some parents pummel their children to death. A gentle smack on the bum or wrist cannot be compared to a kick in the head or punching of the stomach.

And some people do scruff and throw their cat on the floor without it ever even verging into the territory of cat-cruelty.

The difference is . how different individuals interpret the words scruffing and throwing. Some people are intelligent enough to realize that the basic principle behind this technique is to mimic the mother cats scruff and dump of a wayward kitten . Other people are daft enough to turn it into cat-cruelty.

I recommend heating kitten food up in the microwave, that doesnt mean it should be served at boiling hot temperatures that would burn a cats mouth.

All advice given in relationship to animals is given assuming the owners interpret it with a degree of common sense. And by the sounds of things the new owners that this kitten went to were far from sensible.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Tje said:


> All advice given in relationship to animals is given assuming the owners interpret it with a degree of common sense. And by the sounds of things the new owners that this kitten went to were far from sensible.


Couldn't agree more.


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## MissBethM (Aug 25, 2010)

When my kitten Pixie jumps on our faces through the night and decides she wants to play rough i.e. with her little needle claws out, I just pick her up and drop her on the floor (we have a really thick carpet, she is a flexible little thing and certainly won't be injured!!) If she persists in the attack I lock her in one of the spare rooms but I always feel so guilty doing this coz she just meows non stop :frown: xxx


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Just a quick update on the "conversation with vet".

This advice was NOT given and should NEVER be given and a cat should never be picked up by the scruff of the neck, as some cats, like mine have never experienced this and can cause trauma an make any situation worse.

This cat is now rehomed and sleeping at bottom of the ladies bed in the evening.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

so damn typical.... invent your own cat-training techniques... then say the vet told you to do it that way so you cover your own arse! 

Had a similar thing not so long ago with people who took two of my foster kittens... and soon afterwards let them roam free outdoors... which is ofcourse allowed and their right to let their cats outdoors, and I didn't even comment on it at all until they told me the vet had told them that it would be cruel to keep the cat confined to indoors... it never rung true with me, checked it with the vet in question and she never said anything remotely like that. 

I think people often just say "well the vet told me to do this" .... like using some kind of "get of jail freee" card.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Tje said:


> so damn typical.... invent your own cat-training techniques... then say the vet told you to do it that way so you cover your own arse!
> 
> Had a similar thing not so long ago with people who took two of my foster kittens... and soon afterwards let them roam free outdoors... which is ofcourse allowed and their right to let their cats outdoors, and I didn't even comment on it at all until they told me the vet had told them that it would be cruel to keep the cat confined to indoors... it never rung true with me, checked it with the vet in question and she never said anything remotely like that.
> 
> I think people often just say "well the vet told me to do this" .... like using some kind of "get of jail freee" card.


It's terrible, he had a diet sheet, they put him on Gourmet ??

The Vet was very nice and said that in his 30 years he had NEVER given this advice, he remembers the ex-owner very well, and said "I get the feeling the husband was not a cat person"!

She swears the cat was not touched but he seemed terrified, he also had a whisker pulled out, although I don't think they would be as cruel as to do that....well I hope not.

Argh Some people!!!!  I wouldn't mind but, Oh I don't even know anymore. :lol: :lol:

Most are very nice, I felt so sorry for this lady, have been in touch since February and it's now....August and I have had enough of her, even the vet agreed the cat was feeding off her anxieties but trying to explain that to an overly anxious person is almost impossible.

I have learned something though, I am not as anxious as I previously thought, I am actually quite normal!  :arf:


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Quick update; just been up to visit Marco and he is back his normal loving self, he was a bit wary of me (probably thinks I am coming to take him away) but gosh he is spoilt, I made it clear to this lady not to let him in her bedroom but he has now progressed to lying in the bed with her and knows when it's bedtime. She is delighted and when she picked him up he snuggled his face right into hers, purring away, one very happy kitten!

A HUGE 4 kilos (my vet wonders what I feed them) but very happy!! I will post a pic when I am not on this horrid old laptop. :thumbup:


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Glad to hear he is settled and happy .It must be a huge relief.He is one big boy.How old is he.Meeko was weighed on wednesday he is only 3.7kgs


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

buffie said:


> Glad to hear he is settled and happy .It must be a huge relief.He is one big boy.How old is he.Meeko was weighed on wednesday he is only 3.7kgs


lol yes he HUGE, I think this may have been the problem too, he is only a baby and the size of a 6/7 month old poor child...I mean kitten, Oh it was lovely to see him so happy and contented though. 

*and* he only stays a few streets away!!! :thumbup: (poor woman - I will attempt not to hassle her) (too much).


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Milly22 said:


> lol yes he HUGE, I think this may have been the problem too, he is only a baby and the size of a 6/7 month old poor child...I mean kitten, Oh it was lovely to see him so happy and contented though.
> 
> *and* he only stays a few streets away!!! :thumbup: (poor woman - I will attempt not to hassle her) (too much).


You are lucky to have him so close.Glad it has all worked out for everyone.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

She was looking for a girl, hence the pink scratcher !


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Milly22 said:


> She was looking for a girl, hence the pink scratcher !


He is gorgeous and he looks very happy and content:thumbup:and I'm sure he doesnt care about the colour as long as it is a scratcher


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Yeah he is very happy boy! He even knows when she is getting ready to go out now and attached himself to her coat. :lol: Very sensible animals, and sensitive to their surroundings, I am thinking.

My Cassie just shouted at me 3 times as I approached the PC chair, wherr she is sitting.  I said "what?" she said "Meow wow", I said "it's fine I am hoovering you can sit there" "Meowowow"! 

I don't know who is worse me or them.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

They are very quick learners,Meeko knows when I am going out and is at the front door before I can get out.Same when he has "been"in his tray ,before I can remove it he has run to the bathroom waiting for the "flush"They are,when given the chance, very close to their human family and always want to feel included in any activities as I am now finding with Meeko


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## Merenwenrago (Sep 5, 2010)

I have ginger Cat whos 3 years old who sucks and bites toes, but never found it a problem . I actually find it cute.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

buffie said:


> They are very quick learners,Meeko knows when I am going out and is at the front door before I can get out.Same when he has "been"in his tray ,before I can remove it he has run to the bathroom waiting for the "flush"They are,when given the chance, very close to their human family and always want to feel included in any activities as I am now finding with Meeko


Yes, this sounds much the same as Marco, they just want attention and love.

When I had my cats in my bedroom (pre-non sleeping child) they never used to bother, I love winter time, I snuggle one up to bed for mid afternoon nap and cuddle (usually my boy)!


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## kota (Jun 17, 2010)

"It's impossible tell the sun to leave the sky, it's impossible - ask the baby not to cry... it's just impossible" 
It's impossible not to allow a kitten to be a kitten. There is only one thing that can change their character - our love - and nothing else. If you could see my cat who has been wandering for two years, you would be very much surprized that this pretty calm boy is the same cat. It was an angry, anxious animal who could harm everybody! Another person surely would throw him away, but we loved him and he changed.


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## tc.catz (May 19, 2010)

All I can say is, I have learnt that when I take my socks off at night to get my feet into bed under the covers very quickly, it is surprising how quickly one small kitten can launch itself across the bedroom to land at your feet to nip the toes

I am no longer allowed to read in bed at night, definite no / no. If I persist on doing so, one singing [purring] kitten will come between me and the book/magazine and knead me with his paws back and forth across my body until I give up, turn out the light and we both settle down. He at the foot of the bed - during the night he paddles up the bed to snuggle down for a few mins under the duvet - just a few mins, but he stays at the top of the bed until morning. Usually I waken with little bed clothes on the very edge of the bed with a very large Boxer dog stretched out on the other side and a kitten snuggled up between us:thumbup:

As for a deterrent I have found the best thing is to blow / puff [not hiss] at said kittens head/face if he is being naughty. Element of surprise and it makes him think before he does it again


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Oh Milly he is a looker! What is that colour/ pattern called? Will he stay that pale or darken as he gets older?


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Paddypaws said:


> Oh Milly he is a looker! What is that colour/ pattern called? Will he stay that pale or darken as he gets older?


He will get darker as he gets older, I think?? This is my first breeding with this pair. He is a blue tabby bi-colour! I was up seeing him (worming him) last night and he is just gorgeous, I couldn't stop looking at him! He was playing with my hair.

His new owner is great, she is just as bad as him, she throws bouncy balls off her door so they bounce around the house for him, he has a bedtime routine and all, it was a little chilly 2 nights ago so he had an electric blanket too, he must think he is in heaven!!

It's nice being able to visit and just see the happiness he has brought this woman. She truly loves him, possibly just as much as me! 

PS - I have another blue tabby bicolour......very tiny just now though!


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