# Bedroom Tax victim commits suicide. So sad.



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Bedroom Tax victim commits suicide: Grandmother Stephanie Bottrill blames government in tragic note - Mirror Online

"Grandmother who had to pay extra £20 a week throws herself in front of motorway lorry."

Ten days ago Stephanie Bottrill sat in the redbrick terrace house which had been home for 18 years to write notes to her loved ones, the Sunday People reports .

She ripped the pages from a spiral-bound notebook and placed them neatly in little brown envelopes.

There was one for her son. Another for her daughter. Her mother. Friends. And a very special one for the year-old grandson she doted on.

Then in the early hours of last Saturday Stephanie, 53, left her home for the last time, leaving her cat Joey behind as the front-door clicked shut.

She crossed her road in Meriden Drive, Solihull, to drop one of her letters and her house keys through a neighbours letterbox. Then she walked 15 minutes through the sleeping estate to Junction 4 of the M6.

And at 6.15am she walked straight into the path of a northbound lorry and was killed instantly. Stephanie Bottrill had become the first known suicide victim of the hated Bedroom Tax.

In the letter to her son, Steven, 27, she had written: Dont blame yourself for me ending my life. The only people to blame are the Government.

Stephanie was tormented over having to find £20 a week to pay for the two under-occupied bedrooms she had been assessed for.

Days before her death she told neighbours: I cant afford to live any more.

*This story has me in tears. When will this all stop?
My heart goes out to her family. Such a tragic waste of life, and totally unnecessary.
*


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Pretty sad,i don't expect it did much for the lorry driver either.Don't understand why she couldn't have put in for a one bedroom flat.


----------



## chissy 15 (Mar 13, 2013)

It's heartbreaking Trouble is there isn't enough smaller social housing for people to move into as majority is either flats or 3 bed houses so a lot of people who want to down size because of this tax can't, my mum being one of them


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Firedog said:


> Pretty sad,i don't expect it did much for the lorry driver either.Don't understand why she couldn't have put in for a one bedroom flat.


*I doubt, because of her frame of mind, she thought about the driver.*


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Firedog said:


> Pretty sad,i don't expect it did much for the lorry driver either.Don't understand why she couldn't have put in for a one bedroom flat.


the issue is (here at least), that it can take over a year for a Homeless person to get a flat, never mind someone who is in a house. when my gran first read about the tax she didn't see that she was exempt because of age and sat in tears in front of the entire family at the thought of losing her home of 40 years because of a stupidly thought out tax. this is the lady who has never been seen to cry before by her son!

it's not as simple as just applying for a flat and them saying 'oh yea, here ya go'


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

all that sadness for £20, i think its a case of the straw that broke the camels back, surely there had to be other problems.


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

chissy 15 said:


> It's heartbreaking Trouble is there isn't enough smaller social housing for people to move into as majority is either flats or 3 bed houses so a lot of people who want to down size because of this tax can't, my mum being one of them


I should have thought of that really,our area doesn't have a lot of one bed flats.I suppose people that have been in houses don't really want too move to a flat if it isn't on the ground floor.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> all that sadness for £20, i think its a case of the straw that broke the camels back, surely there had to be other problems.


*hm i liked your post because you said, " surely the had to be other problems". I know for a FACT, people that have the least are being told they have to pay more and more. It has got to the stage where they are paying just their bills, and are left with nothing to live on.
It really p*sses me of, that these stories are not on our mian news channels.*


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Yes, it's terrible, but think myself that there must have been more problems to drive this lady to do something so desperate!

NOT THAT I AGREE WITH THE BEDROOM TAX but the MIRROR I see have done a great job of displaying her as a descredpid old grandmother, when infact she was only 53! You can be a grandmother as 30! Cannot really comment further as don't know if the was an illness that prevent her working, BUT correct me if I am wrong but aren't those who work, irrespective at how few hours exempt from the tax? 

Everyone holds their own destiny in their hands, but sometimes its easier to pass the book!
And what of the poor driver who hit her?
Other half was in a fatal RTA and this has effects on the living too!


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*In this day and age, NOBODY holds their destiny in their hands. The greedy selfish politicians have each and everyone of us by the short and curlies.*


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I can honestly say the only time i hear anything about this is on here, thats not to say people arnt going through this around me, even more sad in this womans case, to have a son and daughter yet kills herself for £20, wouldnt you have thought even if she was too proud to say anything they would have known she would be a victim of this bedroom tax and had a good idea about her financial situation, surely they could have helped or maybe not hence the "dont blame yourself note" i think there is more to this that £20 tbh.


----------



## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

This is terribly sad because it sounds as though she could have been entitled to DLA..but despair got the better of her. This bedroom tax is going to be detrimental to many more I'm sure.


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> Bedroom Tax victim commits suicide: Grandmother Stephanie Bottrill blames government in tragic note - Mirror Online
> 
> "Grandmother who had to pay extra £20 a week throws herself in front of motorway lorry."
> 
> ...


If £20 has tipped her over the edge, what else was going on in her head?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *In this day and age, NOBODY holds their destiny in their hands. The greedy selfish politicians have each and everyone of us by the short and curlies.*


Not so! she had family, a son! did she not talk to him? 
Lifes what you make it, there are thousands suffering because f this bedroom tax , but most don't take the easy way out.

So roll you eyes as much as you like sweetie
Suits you!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

jon bda said:


> If £20 has tipped her over the edge, what else was going on in her head?


That was my point actually Jon
but there are some on here that can't see beyond the nose on their faces


----------



## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

Firedog said:


> Pretty sad,i don't expect it did much for the lorry driver either.Don't understand why she couldn't have put in for a one bedroom flat.


where i live the only flats are occupied by drunks, druggies and low lifes. i wouldn't want to give my home of 18 years to move into that


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> I can honestly say the only time i hear anything about this is on here, thats not to say people arnt going through this around me, even more sad in this womans case, to have a son and daughter yet kills herself for £20, wouldnt you have thought even if she was too proud to say anything they would have known she would be a victim of this bedroom tax and had a good idea about her financial situation, surely they could have helped or maybe not hence the "dont blame yourself note" i think there is more to this that £20 tbh.


*hm...trust me i know of cases just like this. FACT! What p*sses me off is we won't see it on our news.
I know that people are living just to pay their bills. And then they are asked to pay even more? God above this is " Great Britain" 2013..
But we will still see all the adverts asking us to help 3rd world countries.
When did you ever see an advert to help those in our own country?*


----------



## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

DT said:


> Not so! she had family, a son! did she not talk to him?
> Lifes what you make it, there are thousands suffering because f this bedroom tax , but most don't take the easy way out.
> 
> So roll you eyes as much as you like sweetie
> Suits you!


You see suicide as taking the easy way out ?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


> You see suicide as taking the easy way out ?


No actually I don't, it was perhaps wrong of me to put it that way, I think that someone has to be very brave to be driven to such drastic steps.

BUT, I cannot believe that anyone, especially someone with family would be driven to such action over £20

The lady could have afterall have talked to her family (one would expect her family to have know how deeply affected she was).

Personally, I think there is maybe more to this then we are reading.


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I feel very bad for the truck driver, knowing personally how a fatality accident effects a person....Surely this ladies kids could have chipped in the 20 pounds a month? I believe there is more to the story and it saddens me for all involved the deceased, the family, the driver and their family, just horrible...


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *In this day and age, NOBODY holds their destiny in their hands. The greedy selfish politicians have each and everyone of us by the short and curlies.*


Exactly - the politicians and those fools who support them in their idiotic and selfish policies of taking from the poor and giving to the rich.  :cursing:

The poor are now finding it impossible to live. THIS is the reality - not the odd person you see now and again in the tabloids flaunting their "working" of the system.  :cursing:


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> I feel very bad for the truck driver, knowing personally how a fatality accident effects a person....Surely this ladies kids could have chipped in the 20 pounds a month? I believe there is more to the story and it saddens me for all involved the deceased, the family, the driver and their family, just horrible...


!00% yes, before we start blaming others maybe its time we started looking a family values and taking care on one own
Do family values still exist?


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

After reading the link, ime thinking more about the fact it was the house she didnt want to leave rather than the money, tbh its says she had her memories there her pets were buried in the garden there, she was offered a bungalow but it was too far away from her family.

My mother in law had to leave the house she had lived in from been 14 shes 81 but her health wouldnt allow her to live there, her children were born that house, she was married from there her children had grown up there and married from that house, we all have memories and so many people have to leave a place and area that they know and love, ime not being heartless its just life ime afraid.

I think there was more to this suicide than the tax if ime honest.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Exactly - the politicians and those fools who support them in their idiotic and selfish policies of taking from the poor and giving to the rich.  :cursing:
> 
> The poor are now finding it impossible to live. THIS is the reality - not the odd person you see now and again in the tabloids flaunting their "working" of the system.  :cursing:


I don't support these politcians


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DT said:


> Not so! she had family, a son! did she not talk to him?
> Lifes what you make it, there are thousands suffering because f this bedroom tax , but most don't take the easy way out.
> 
> So roll you eyes as much as you like sweetie
> Suits you!


*As much as i hate replying to you, i will on this one occasion. If you had half a brain you would know the answer to this question. As for the easy way out, god help us if all you ukip morons think the same. Now do me a favour and F*ck off from my thread.*


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> I feel very bad for the truck driver, knowing personally how a fatality accident effects a person....Surely this ladies kids could have chipped in the 20 pounds a month? I believe there is more to the story and it saddens me for all involved the deceased, the family, the driver and their family, just horrible...


_*Jill some are being asked for 14- 20£ per week.*_
This woman was being asked for £20 per week, not per month


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

It used to be a given that kids helped out their aging parents, 53 is actually quite young, well younger than me lol, and at my saddest most desperate times I always thought about my family and fought back to survive...how awful she must have been feeling to do this...I hope someone is helping her family survivor guilt is awful


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> _*Jill some are being asked for 14- 20£ per week.*_
> This woman was being asked for £20 per week, not per month


per week? doesn't seem right to me if there isn't 1 bedroom accomodation they shouldn't be charged the extra. I could understand if there were places with 1 bedrooms available in the same area....


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *As much as i hate replying to you, i will on this one occasion. If you had half a brain you would know the answer to this question. As for the easy way out, god help us if all you ukip morons think the same. Now do me a favour and F*ck off from my thread.*


People with a low IQ are more unhappy then their counterparts with an higher IQ  see the link below!
BBC News - IQ linked to levels of happiness

Your reply to me verifies that

D If you don't want people to reply on your threads then don't make em!
Simple

But perhaps you don't understand that


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *As much as i hate replying to you, i will on this one occasion. If you had half a brain you would know the answer to this question. As for the easy way out, god help us if all you ukip morons think the same. Now do me a favour and F*ck off from my thread.*


You posted it in 'General Discussion' so i think anyone can reply?


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *hm...trust me i know of cases just like this. FACT! What p*sses me off is we won't see it on our news.
> I know that people are living just to pay their bills. And then they are asked to pay even more? God above this is " Great Britain" 2013..
> But we will still see all the adverts asking us to help 3rd world countries.
> When did you ever see an advert to help those in our own country?*


Thats why i dont give to the third would.

I think people have been helped out very well in our own country, free health care for people that have never paid a penny into it, free housing, the list goes on and for all i do feel for people having to leave their homes, many have had it very good for maybe too long.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *F*ck .*


By the way! you spelt summat wrong!
common word in you house I guess

how old are you that you have to resort to swearing?


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> per week? doesn't seem right to me if there isn't 1 bedroom accomodation they shouldn't be charged the extra. I could understand if there were places with 1 bedrooms available in the same area....


*Jill the Fact is, there isn't enough 2 bedroom places to rehome these people. It's times like this, i bl**dy hate this country.So many people are being classed as cheats or stroungers,(sp) which isn't the case at all.*


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DT said:


> No actually I don't, it was perhaps wrong of me to put it that way, I think that someone has to be very brave to be driven to such drastic steps.
> 
> BUT, I cannot believe that anyone, especially someone with family would be driven to such action over £20
> 
> ...


She had actually spoke to her son about it but long gone are the days when families rallied round and helped each other its all about it being someone elses problem in this instance the government.


----------



## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

A terrible tragedy whatever the circumstance. I would be heartbroken if it were my Mum, and I felt that she couldn't turn to me for support..I know my Mum would come to me if she needed anything, anything at all (even if she does drive me up the wall lol)

Houses are just bricks and mortar, it's the memories that are important, and they can go with you wherever. There has to be more to it than that.


----------



## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

I read this a couple of days ago,it was £80 a month £20 a * week *,and her daughter had apparently just moved out as well as her son, so maybe her income went down drastically too


----------



## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

I don't think you can blame bedroom tax for someone committing suicide there's got to be a lot more to it than that. it's very sad that people are struggling for money these days and I agree the bedroom tax is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of BUT most people are in the same position and are struggling at the moment and they don't go jumping in front of a lorry, I am very sorry for the family and there loss and very sorry that this tipped the poor woman over the edge but there's probably been underlying mental health problems for a while. 

got to feel it for the lorry driver as well, I don't think suicide is selfish but committing it using someone else is.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*God help those that have never had a suicide in their family, and never understood why.*


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

MissShelley said:


> A terrible tragedy whatever the circumstance. I would be heartbroken if it were my Mum, and I felt that she couldn't turn to me for support..I know my Mum would come to me if she needed anything, anything at all (even if she does drive me up the wall lol)
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Exactly! I am an only child, from a poor background but I took care of my parents financially from being 30 years of age until the day they died, I may not have been able to solve all their financial problems (as I too wa a single parent working bloody hard) but I sure as hell gave em the most important precious thing I have! MY TIME


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

jon bda said:


> If £20 has tipped her over the edge, what else was going on in her head?





DT said:


> Not so! _ she had family, a son! did she not talk to him? _
> Lifes what you make it, there are thousands suffering because f this bedroom tax , but most don't take the easy way out.
> !





DT said:


> BUT, I cannot believe that anyone, especially someone with family would be driven to such action over £20
> 
> The lady could have afterall have _talked to her family_ (one would expect her family to have know how deeply affected she was).
> 
> Personally, I think there is maybe more to this then we are reading.


ok. firstly, as has been said it's not like it was £20 per month or a one off... this is £1040 per year. not a chance a lot of people could comfortably afford that....
as to the comments about her having family... sp does my dad, yet that doesn't stop him planning the least messy ways to kill himself- he admitted one day that the reason he didnt slash his wrists, hang himself or throw himself out of the attic was becasue he didn't want his girls to have to clean it up. and i know he still has days when he is That bad now his meds aren't working as well anymore.
so no, it's not fair to blame the family, chances are she put on a brave face to them when she was with them and only suffered in silence as most with severe depression do.
yes, it probably was the final straw, but just becasue it wasn't the only factor doesn't make it any less of a factor in this womans death.


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *God help those that have never had a suicide in their family, and never understood why.*


Lose the rolleyes, and the self pity...


----------



## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

We don't know the full story, but if her son and daughter had recently moved out, then perhaps it was already a difficult time for her - emotionally, as well as financially - 

- and perhaps she was more desperate to hang on to the house that held so many memories for her. 

I can fully understand that. It's the tiny things around you - mementoes, smells, the familiar, that trigger our memories.

So perhaps, losing her home was one thing too many too bear.

I just wish that there were some "transition" with this bedroom tax, gradually scaling up the amount, or something, to give people time to adjust, or find somewhere else.

Awful for the woman, her family, and the driver snd his.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jon bda said:


> Lose the rolleyes, and the self pity...


*Are you for real? i don't need. want, self pity ya moron.*


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

kodakkuki said:


> ok. firstly, as has been said it's not like it was £20 per month or a one off... this is £1040 per year. not a chance a lot of people could comfortably afford that....
> as to the comments about her having family... sp does my dad, yet that doesn't stop him planning the least messy ways to kill himself- he admitted one day that the reason he didnt slash his wrists, hang himself or throw himself out of the attic was becasue he didn't want his girls to have to clean it up. and i know he still has days when he is That bad now his meds aren't working as well anymore.
> so no, it's not fair to blame the family, chances are she put on a brave face to them when she was with them and only suffered in silence as most with severe depression do.
> yes, it probably was the final straw, but just becasue it wasn't the only factor doesn't make it any less of a factor in this womans death.


She didnt put on a brave face she told her son she wasnt coping.


----------



## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

R.I.P x 

respect costs nothing x


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

kodakkuki said:


> ok. firstly, as has been said it's not like it was £20 per month or a one off... this is £1040 per year. not a chance a lot of people could comfortably afford that....
> as to the comments about her having family... sp does my dad, yet that doesn't stop him planning the least messy ways to kill himself- he admitted one day that the reason he didnt slash his wrists, hang himself or throw himself out of the attic was becasue he didn't want his girls to have to clean it up. and i know he still has days when he is That bad now his meds aren't working as well anymore.
> so no, it's not fair to blame the family, chances are she put on a brave face to them when she was with them and only suffered in silence as most with severe depression do.
> yes, it probably was the final straw, but just becasue it wasn't the only factor doesn't make it any less of a factor in this womans death.


I am not blaming the family, the same way I am not the government, there must have been a combination of issues surrounding this, You have just said yourself that you father *'discusses* with you why he doesn't take such drastic steps , talking helps so they say.

We had a distant family member who blew his brains out by the way! albeit he was suffering throat cancer and none of us knew. Was that to save him suffering or his family??? on does have to wonder.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Are you for real? i don't need oe want self pity ya moron.*


Is this the normal response from someone WITH a brain?
because if it is then thank god I only have half of one


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *Are you for real? i don't need oe want self pity ya moron.*


Lovely...may i borrow these a minute...

    

...because obviously nobody else apart from you has lost someone close to suicide...


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> She didnt put on a brave face she told her son she wasnt coping.





DT said:


> I am not blaming the family, the same way I am not the government, there must have been a combination of issues surrounding this, You have just said yourself that you father *'discusses* with you why he doesn't take such drastic steps , talking helps so they say.
> 
> We had a distant family member who blew his brains out by the way! albeit he was suffering throat cancer and none of us knew. _ Was that to save him suffering or his family??? on does have to wonder_.


theres a difference in telling someone you're not coping and you want to die. i don't now the full story, only what the papers say, but still- difference between 'i want to die becasue i can't take this' and 'this is all a bit hard at the moment'.

yes, thankfully he did- because the phyciatric team made him talk to us. i hadn't known until then that he had a completely mess-free way to die planned out, and he only brought that up in a rage when being questioned by the team (thank god they knew what they were doing!)

i'm sorry to hear that DT, for you and your entire family- including the man who took his life.

the thing is, mental illness is very difficult to understand if you haven't experienced it. you have kids going round telling people they are depressed and self-harming, but in all honesty, it's mostly the worst cases who don't tell anyone. my sister nearly died from self harm when she coughed cutting and slit the artery in her arm... and that was when she Didnt want to kill herself.

also, mental illness can often have genetic factors; the reason my dad didn't talk about it with his daughters because we are all on meds and he didnt want it to affect us...

bedroom tax or not, suicide is always tragic and never intentionally hurtful to others; if you feel you are a burden, them not having to bother dealing with you may indeed be seen by them as a kindness.



jon bda said:


> Lovely...may i borrow these a minute...
> 
> 
> 
> ...because obviously nobody else apart from you has lost someone close to suicide...


i don't recall that being brought up once.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jon bda said:


> Lovely...may i borrow these a minute...
> 
> 
> 
> ...because obviously nobody else apart from you has lost someone close to suicide...


*You really need help.*


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *You really need help.*


Of course...whats the weather like on your planet?


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)




----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I see we all seem to agree this is a terrible tragedy and maybe with some professional help, government understanding this wouldn't have happened. Suicide is probably one of the hardest things for the survivors to understand and usually something that is only seen in hindsight, cause realistically if anyone knew someone was going to commit suicide they would try to prevent it...This is a very sad story and must be heartbreaking for those involved..


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

can we not get personal and stay on topic...Please


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Back on track, it's a terrible tragedy  I feel for her & feel for her family, also have a lot of sympathy for the poor driver, can't imagine how distressing it must have been for him


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Back on track, it's a terrible tragedy  I feel for her & feel for her family, also have a lot of sympathy for the poor driver, can't imagine how distressing it must have been for him


Think that is the overall feeling of us all
Before we tried to translate what the papers had written!
The findings will come out at the inquest no doubt


----------



## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

RIP Stephanie Bottrill,
poor wee lady must have been desperate


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Did Thatcher's family get a note from the council about their spare bedroom ?


----------



## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

it must have been more than that to make her leave her family and grandkids behind and jump in front of a lorry. £20 a week is alot of money but its not really something (for most people) you would kill yourself over, i think the tabloids have grabbed onto the one fact that she has to pay this ammount a week and used it as the reason she commited suicide, looks bad on the government then. 
she might have had trouble with neighbours, or might have been depressed, have other mental illnesses, or a physical illness. 
whatever made her commit suicide i feel sorry for the family left behind, and that she felt the need to end it the way she did. RIP. 

the person i feel most sorry for in the whole affair is the poor lorry driver who she jumped in front off. how must he be feeling, thats going be a hefty bill towards counsiling.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Firedog said:


> Pretty sad,i don't expect it did much for the lorry driver either.Don't understand why she couldn't have put in for a one bedroom flat.


An old woman who has lived there for donkey's years?
Do you realize the impact on a single senior citizen to be forced to move to another neighbourhood where they know no-one?

In our street, we all know each other. When my hubby turned out to have blood poisoning late at night, our neighbours would gladly drive us to the hospital.
When I had pneumonia and felt too poorly to drive to hospital for X-rays, one of the neighbours drove me.

And I am not even old, feeble and single.

Without siblings or children, or with siblings/children living too far away to call on in times of need, you are totally dependent on friends and neighbours. If you move a personto a different neighbourhood, especially old people, who cannot go out that easily and make new friends, you may find one day that they have had a dizzy spell, a stroke or a heart attack and have been lying in their home for days or even weeks, unable to raise the alarm, dead or dying.....

Is that the society we want? 
Uprooting and isolating people, leaving them to rot?

When we moved to a different town 18 years ago, it took us over a year to build a semblance of a social network again. And that was with us doing ballroom dancing and sports, attending social events, travelling by public transport and having firends of us living in the next village, less than 5 miles away. An old, feeble person with a very limited budget would never manage to build a new social network.


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Agree that this was the icing on the cake for the poor woman to take her life.....

Its a shame her family and kids couldn't have helped her out...I know for sure my brothers and I will always look after our Mum!! 

Rip poor woman.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

CRL said:


> it must have been more than that to make her leave her family and grandkids behind and jump in front of a lorry. £20 a week is alot of money but its not really something (for most people) you would kill yourself over, i think the tabloids have grabbed onto the one fact that she has to pay this ammount a week and used it as the reason she commited suicide, looks bad on the government then.
> she might have had trouble with neighbours, or might have been depressed, have other mental illnesses, or a physical illness.
> whatever made her commit suicide i feel sorry for the family left behind, and that she felt the need to end it the way she did. RIP.
> 
> the person i feel most sorry for in the whole affair is the poor lorry driver who she jumped in front off. how must he be feeling, thats going be a hefty bill towards counsiling.


Not being able to afford 20 pounds a week wouldn't be something to kill yourself for, but being forced to give up your home in a neighbourhood where you feel safe and have friends and having to move to a street where no-one knows you or cares about you would most certainly be.
Old people often cannot cope at all with being uprooted. They need the security of their close social network (their neighbours, the familiar milkman and the people in the corner shop, who know them well enough to raise the alarm if they don't show up when expected) to feel safe and at ease.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

*Firstly my heart goes out to this lady and her family. Also, just because you don't hear of such stories that often, don't assume they are not happening. The truth is, they are but our mainstream media doesn't like to report it. I see a lot of comments about it's only £20 a week, no-one would kill themselves over 'JUST' £20 a week. You are missing the bigger picture here. If you have nothing, then how on earth can you come up with £20 a week to hand over? And when you fail to hand that £20 a week over, you then lose your home, your possessions, everything. Your home where you may have spent thousands on over the years, maybe even still paying off for the things you bought to do it up and make it home. This lady although she never wanted to move from her home, had resigned herself to the fact she had to and had even packed her belongings up. But there was nowhere for her to downsize to, yet they still wanted to take money that she didn't have. You can't get blood out of a stone. As for turning to family, some people do not want to burden their family with their problems regardless how many times the family offer help. Speaking for myself, im 44 and i wouldn't turn to my parents for help as i believe it is my place to help them, not the other way around. I would also, never turn to my son for the very same reasons. *


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Jiskefet said:


> An old woman who has lived there for donkey's years?
> Do you realize the impact on a single senior citizen to be forced to move to another neighbourhood where they know no-one?
> 
> In our street, we all know each other. When my hubby turned out to have blood poisoning late at night, our neighbours would gladly drive us to the hospital.
> ...


shes 53.................hardly an old woman, well i hope not reading the link i dont think it was all to do with the bedroom tax and even as young as 53 it must be hard but many people have to leave their homes for worse reasons.


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Jiskefet said:


> Not being able to afford 20 pounds a week wouldn't be something to kill yourself for, but being forced to give up your home in a neighbourhood where you feel safe and have friends and having to move to a street where no-one knows you or cares about you would most certainly be.
> Old people often cannot cope at all with being uprooted. They need the security of their close social network (their neighbours, the familiar milkman and the people in the corner shop, who know them well enough to raise the alarm if they don't show up when expected) to feel safe and at ease.


She was 53 not what I call old. And yes it is a shame the sequence of events BUT as adults we always have a choice.


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Firstly my heart goes out to this lady and her family. Also, just because you don't hear of such stories that often, don't assume they are not happening. The truth is, they are but our mainstream media doesn't like to report it. I see a lot of comments about it's only £20 a week, no-one would kill themselves over 'JUST' £20 a week. You are missing the bigger picture here. If you have nothing, then how on earth can you come up with £20 a week to hand over? And when you fail to hand that £20 a week over, you then lose your home, your possessions, everything. Your home where you may have spent thousands on over the years, maybe even still paying off for the things you bought to do it up and make it home. This lady although she never wanted to move from her home, had resigned herself to the fact she had to and had even packed her belongings up. But there was nowhere for her to downsize to, yet they still wanted to take money that she didn't have. You can't get blood out of a stone. As for turning to family, some people do not want to burden their family with their problems regardless how many times the family offer help. Speaking for myself, im 44 and i wouldn't turn to my parents for help as i believe it is my place to help them, not the other way around. I would also, never turn to my son for the very same reasons. *


Reading that makes my head hurt, can we have some spaces etc???


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Jiskefet said:


> Not being able to afford 20 pounds a week wouldn't be something to kill yourself for, but being forced to give up your home in a neighbourhood where you feel safe and have friends and having to move to a street where no-one knows you or cares about you would most certainly be.
> Old people often cannot cope at all with being uprooted. They need the security of their close social network (their neighbours, the familiar milkman and the people in the corner shop, who know them well enough to raise the alarm if they don't show up when expected) to feel safe and at ease.


But she wasn't that old! Its not like she was an elderly hrlpless old lady... She wasn't even of retirement age


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Jiskefet said:


> An old woman who has lived there for donkey's years?
> Do you realize* the impact on a single senior citizen *to be forced to move to another neighbourhood where they know no-one?


She was 53  My dad is 54 and just had a baby with his new wife hardly a old person 

The tax might have been the icing on the cake but i doubt it was the real cause .

I don't believe a council house should be for life but i don't agree with how this tax has been bought in.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

What if the choice is becoming homeless......?
If you cannot afford to live there, and they do not have something cheaper, what options do you have?

If they would take my house and possessions from me and I had nowhere to go but live on the street, I might well kill myself, too.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

I think a lot of people are missing the point about this. Instead of saying there must be something else, that no-one commits suicide over £20 per week - why don't we all face the fact that in this day and age, having to find another £20 per week out of virtually nothing IS enough reason to commit suicide. It might not be much to most posters on here, but if you have nothing, and then have to find £20 per week or lose your home, then that can be devastating.

So lets stop trying to find other reasons and let's stop making excuses. This government has given a 25K a year tax relief to the rich, and left the poor in such dire financial straits that they have no option other than to commit suicide. Let's stop pretending and DO something about it.


----------



## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I thought this woman had the money deducted out of her benefits not that she had to pay extra.

Many people (according to the Samaritans) say that its a combination of many factors that tip someone over the edge to commit suicide. Many times they have had mental problems for years before hand and it takes just something else that breaks the camels back.

I do feel for this women but killing yourself over £20 a week just doesn't seem worth it


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I think a lot of people are missing the point about this. Instead of saying there must be something else, that no-one commits suicide over £20 per week - why don't we all face the fact that in this day and age, having to find another £20 per week out of virtually nothing IS enough reason to commit suicide. It might not be much to most posters on here, but if you have nothing, and then have to find £20 per week or lose your home, then that can be devastating.
> 
> So lets stop trying to find other reasons and let's stop making excuses. This government has given a 25K a year tax relief to the rich, and left the poor in such dire financial straits that they have no option other than to commit suicide. Let's stop pretending and DO something about it.


If it meant losing my home I would go and work in Mcdonalds for four hours a week.


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Jiskefet said:


> What if the choice is becoming homeless......?
> If you cannot afford to live there, and they do not have something cheaper, what options do you have?
> 
> If they would take my house and possessions from me and I had nowhere to go but live on the street, I might well kill myself, too.


She was offered another home but it wasn't what she wanted or a area she wanted, she would not of been thrown onto the streets .



Spellweaver said:


> So lets stop trying to find other reasons and let's stop making excuses. *This government has given a 25K a year tax relief to the rich*, and left the poor in such dire financial straits that they have no option other than to commit suicide. Let's stop pretending and DO something about it.


:Yawn: people working hard don't pay enough tax :Yawn:


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> An old woman who has lived there for donkey's years?
> Do you realize the impact on a single senior citizen to be forced to move to another neighbourhood where they know no-one?


My mum and dad have not long moved out to give a young family a three bedroom house, they were happy to do so...i'm suprised it took this long...


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> She was offered another home but it wasn't what she wanted or a area she wanted, she would not of been thrown onto the streets .
> 
> :Yawn: people working hard don't pay enough tax :Yawn:


So she should just take any old hovel in any old dump because the government has thought up a new tax to milk the have-nots.....

But who turned her into a beggar in the first place?
She was paying an appropriate rent for the size of the house, I expect. Suddenly making it more expensive because tehre are fewer people living there just isn't fair.

Your motto seems to be that beggars can't be choosers?
Don't ever even suggest that unless you have been a beggar!!!!!!


----------



## x PIXIE x (Feb 9, 2012)

Firedog said:


> Pretty sad,i don't expect it did much for the lorry driver either.Don't understand why she couldn't have put in for a one bedroom flat.


Solihull council offered her a smaller place... She felt it was too far away from her friends. What about those poor families living in overcrowded properties desperate for a new home though? She was given a chance to move unlike those who are living in poverty, homeless or with no food... People like that would give anything for a home. I don't want to sound heartless but I have no sympathy... I have no doubt times are hard but to blame the government is pretty low. She wasnt the only person struggling at the moment everyone's finding it tough, but to have the opportunity of a new home and to turn it down???? Why???

She was 53... Judging by the fact people are retiring at 65 I hardly think its an old age??? She was offered a lot more than the vast majority of us. The house could have been used by a young family struggling to get by.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

jon bda said:


> My mum and dad have not long moved out to give a young family a three bedroom house, they were happy to do so...i'm suprised it took this long...


If you can move to a place of your choice, at the time of your choice, there is nothing wrong with it.
Many years ago, my parents moved to a smaller apartment, too, because they wanted an elevator. Walking up 3 floors to their home a couple of times every day was getting too hard for them.
But, again, it was THEIR choice.


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> She was paying an appropriate rent for the size of the house


I'm assuming that she wasn't actually paying any rent?


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Jiskefet said:


> So she should just take any old hovel in any old dump because the government has thought up a new tax to milk the have-nots.....
> 
> But who turned her into a beggar in the first place?
> She was paying an appropriate rent for the size of the house, I expect. Suddenly making it more expensive because tehre are fewer people living there just isn't fair.
> ...


They offered her a bungalow, lucky at her young age, but it was too far away from her family.


----------



## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

jon bda said:


> If £20 has tipped her over the edge, what else was going on in her head?





DT said:


> That was my point actually Jon
> but there are some on here that can't see beyond the nose on their faces


£20 a week is approx £80 a month. I earn a pretty reasonable wage and even I would baulk at anything which took that much out of my monthly income.

If you are single, and on benefits with no children or dependants, you get SFA and almost every penny is accounted for. £20 a week becomes a lot of money then.

I don't agree with the bedroom tax but I also don't agree that three-bedroomed social housing should only have one occupant.

Yes, councils & govt need to create more, and better, one-bed accomodations but anyone who is in social housing needs to understand that their current property is not for life but only for as long as it fits their needs.



Jiskefet said:


> An old woman who has lived there for donkey's years?
> Do you realize the impact on a single senior citizen


As has already been said JK, she was 53. That is only 6yrs older than me. If anyone calls me an old woman, and a senior citizen, when I am 53, I will positively wallop them!!!!!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

x PIXIE x said:


> She was 53... Judging by the fact people are retiring at 65 I hardly think its an old age??? She was offered a lot more than the vast majority of us. The house could have been used by a young family struggling to get by.


Paralell to my thoughts! The papers were implying by using the headline 'grandmother' that we were talking a little fragile old lady.
You can be a grandmother at 30 these days.
And my other half is over retirement age and still working! BUT the oldest person at his workplace is 75 so 53 in the eyes of many is a 'spring chicken'

BUT that said I do believe the lady had a disability, whether that's true I don't know


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Jiskefet said:


> So she should just take any old hovel in any old dump because the government has thought up a new tax to milk the have-nots.....
> 
> But who turned her into a beggar in the first place?
> *She was paying an appropriate rent for the size of the house, I expect. Suddenly making it more expensive because tehre are fewer people living there just isn't fair.*
> ...


She wasn't paying the rent , housing benefit was . It wasn't made more expensive the amount of benefit is reduced to only cover the amount of bedrooms she needed  Had she been in private rented property this would have already been done , they pay a "fair rent" for the size of property needed .


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> She wasn't paying the rent , housing benefit was . It wasn't made more expensive the amount of benefit is reduced to only cover the amount of bedrooms she needed  Had she been in private rented property this would have already been done , they pay a "fair rent" for the size of property needed .


Daft question, but could she have taken a lodger in?


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

DT said:


> Daft question, but could she have taken a lodger in?


I know the council never used to allow sub letting but I think they were starting to encourage it.


----------



## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

DT said:


> Daft question, but could she have taken a lodger in?


She could have but it is a BIG step to let a complete stranger move into your home and some people simply don't have the right disposition to take on the role of a land-lady.

Just trying to see it from both sides here.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Well, I am 'only' 57, but I moved to a totally different neighbourhood 18 years ago, and I would find it a lot harder to cope with now. 

I have no parents, no siblings and no children, so when I need some kind of help, I am totally dependent on my in-laws and friends. AND my neighbours. They have helped me out in several emergencies, when I really didn't know what to do.

If I had to give that up and move to a place where I had no-one in my immediate vicinity to fall back on, I would feel pretty put out, too. A social network is a godsent. But you need to have experienced the urgent need for it before you can really understand that. 

When I had pneumonia and had to go to hospital for X-rays, when hubby had to be driven to hospital in the middle of the night and I was not allowed to drive, when hubby got the car keys stolen during a football match 80 miles away, when my dad (my last living realtive) died, when my MIL died on Christmas day.......

It was our NEIGHBOURS who were there for us.
I really don't know what I would do without them.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Just another instance of people jumping on a tragedy to score political points as far as I can see.

Offered somewhere else to live but chose not to take it. I can recognize the fact people get attached to houses however you also do have to be practical. Those who have jobs frequently have to move to stay in employment. Should they instead be supported with their current wage simply as they do not want to move?

As to not moving due to social aspects this lady was not a pensioner. Even if it was the argument shouldn't be about not moving as space is needed for others potentially in more need, which is logical. The point to raise is why society doesn't support it's pensioners and old people enough.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Thinking about this, whenever anyone rents a property they cant ever really say its their own, isnt it always on peoples minds that one day it could be taken back, private renting, the owner might want to sell it or live back in it themselves so choose how long you have been in it, you then have to uproot and move/make a life somewhere else with no choice in the matter.

The bedroom tax gives you a choice, pay for the house or move, now for all people are saying there arnt anywhere else and maybe there arnt but this woman was offered somewhere so if its true there arnt any houses to move into them she was a dam sight luckier than a lot of people, thats why i think theres more to it than that also from reading the link. Its just something else to have a dig or blame the government for.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> She could have but it is a BIG step to let a complete stranger move into your home and some people simply don't have the right disposition to take on the role of a land-lady.
> 
> Just trying to see it from both sides here.


AND the house needs to be right for it...

Our house is big enough to take in a lodger, but we have an open plan house, so a lodger would always have to come through our living room, or if they got the back room, we would have to go through their room to go into the garden. So there would be no privacy for us or them.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Thinking about this, whenever anyone rents a property they cant ever really say its their own, isnt it always on peoples minds that one day it could be taken back, private renting, the owner might want to sell it or live back in it themselves so choose how long you have been in it, you then have to uproot and move/make a life somewhere else with no choice in the matter.
> 
> The bedroom tax gives you a choice, pay for the house or move, now for all people are saying there arnt anywhere else and maybe there arnt but this woman was offered somewhere so if its true there arnt any houses to move into them she was a dam sight luckier than a lot of people, thats why i think theres more to it than that also from reading the link. Its just something else to have a dig or blame the government for.


That's a good point HM, certainly in the 50' and 60's once you were allocatd a council house then it was guaranteed for life. But now times have changed and YES people in private rented have no security, their tenacy often only on an annual basis!


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> It was our NEIGHBOURS who were there for us.
> I really don't know what I would do without them.


[youtube_browser]kIdFzP0TJxc[/youtube_browser]

In case of medical emergency, i'd be calling an ambulance before knocking on the neighbours door...


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> :Yawn: people working hard don't pay enough tax :Yawn:


Sorry if it bores you that millionaires in this country have been given a tax cut of 25K a year while poor people are so desparate for £20 a week that they feel they have no recourse other than to commit suicide.

Don't worry, if it keeps happening then we will soon be rid of all these pesky poor people and then you can stop being bored 

That is, of course, unless those of us who actually give a damn about the plight of others manage to get rid of the crazy government who instigates such things.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

looking at things realistically doesnt it make sense to have a single person or couple in a 2 bed property and a family of 4 in a 3 bed property, I think people have been used to having it all or lucky to have been having it all even spoilt if you like and now things are been looked at more realistically which a good shake up in a lot of areas can only do good in the long run people are now kicking back, making things seem unfair when actually it is fair, unfair a family should be living in overcrowded conditions while a single person rattles about in a 2 bed house is just madness and a waste of money to me.


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Thinking about this, whenever anyone rents a property they cant ever really say its their own, isnt it always on peoples minds that one day it could be taken back, private renting, the owner might want to sell it or live back in it themselves so choose how long you have been in it, you then have to uproot and move/make a life somewhere else with no choice in the matter.
> 
> The bedroom tax gives you a choice, pay for the house or move, now for all people are saying there arnt anywhere else and maybe there arnt but this woman was offered somewhere so if its true there arnt any houses to move into them she was a dam sight luckier than a lot of people, thats why i think theres more to it than that also from reading the link. Its just something else to have a dig or blame the government for.


My mum use to rent with her husband and my 3 younger sisters , they had to move 3 times in under 6 years as the landlords wanted to sell up or move family into the properties .



Spellweaver said:


> Sorry if it bores you that millionaires in this country have been given a tax cut of 25K a year while poor people are so desparate for £20 a week that they feel they have no recourse other than to commit suicide.
> 
> Don't worry, if it keeps happening then we will soon be rid of all these pesky poor people and then you can stop being bored
> 
> That is, of course, unless those of us who actually give a damn about the plight of others manage to get rid of the crazy government who instigates such things.


Do you seriously think that if that tax change hadn't of come in it would be all hunky dory in the UK  What government would that be , not one anyone voted for !

Do you not care for the thousands of families where the kids are growing up in bedsits as there is a one adult sitting in a 3 bed house because they think it's theirs for life despite never buying the house


----------



## chissy 15 (Mar 13, 2013)

My mum is exempt from this tax as she is over 61, but she would love to free up her 3 bed house to a family for a bungalow so she would still have a garden for her and her dog. Housing will only offer her a 1 bed flat which she would hate and most of these say no pets. She wouldn't mind only having 1 bedroom but one of the reasons she wants to move is because of the stairs (having dodgy knees) so why is putting her in a flat going to be better? She is staying put now and we all help her out where necessary. Such a shame when a house could be freed up


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Pointermum said:


> What government would that be , not one anyone voted for !


It would be nice to have a government that *at least one person voted for*, that can't be said for the shower of sh*t squatting in office at the moment.


----------



## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

My MIL is 67.

She has emphasima.

She's had a hip replacement. 

She has been begging her local council to move her to a smaller property as she struggles with the stairs. They have said no because she has a downstairs, OUTSIDE toilet!!!!

She would bite their hand off for the chance of a bungalow and there would be no distance too far for her.


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I think lot of people are forgetting most councils offer a exchange system, i know a LOT of people with two children who are trying to upgrade to 3 bed places. It's not they just have to accept what they are offered they can look for themselves and do a mutual swap :smilewinkgrin:


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

Elmo the Bear said:


> It would be nice to have a government that *at least one person voted for*, that can't be said for the shower of sh*t squatting in office at the moment.


[youtube_browser]sa2vH9d7s8[/youtube_browser]


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

Elmo the Bear said:


> It would be nice to have a government that *at least one person voted for*, that can't be said for the shower of sh*t squatting in office at the moment.


[youtube_browser]gcYK1V2Ogs[/youtube_browser]


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Is there an echo in here ?


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> Do you seriously think that if that tax change hadn't of come in it would be all hunky dory in the UK


No, and nowhere have I said that. However, if this government hadn't allowed millionaires to pay less tax, there would be more in the coffers to help those who need help.



Pointermum said:


> Do you not care for the thousands of families where the kids are growing up in bedsits as there is a one adult sitting in a 3 bed house because they think it's theirs for life despite never buying the house


Oh yeah - let's shift out the old so the youngsters and their kids can benefit - what a great philosophy that is. It beats me why people who live in bedsits don't wait to have kids until they have a house - that would be the sensible thing to do rather than to pump out sprog after sprog and expect some old person to give up their home of god knows how many years for them.

If there were smaller properties for people to move into, your argument might just stand a chance. But as it is, people are stuck in their three bedroom properties having to pay more because there are no smaller properties. Do you think the government didn't realise that when they made these plans? Of course they did - it's just another very sneaky way of raising money from the poor.


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Is there an echo in here ?


That would be Janice i think...


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

jon bda said:


> That would be Janice i think...


You quoted my post twice and didn't say anything. I think the second part is typical but don't get the first part


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> But as it is, people are stuck in their three bedroom properties having to pay more because there are no smaller properties. Do you think the government didn't realise that when they made these plans? Of course they did - it's just another very sneaky way of raising money from the poor.


Or as it is around here, the housing available was mostly built 50 years ago...


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

Elmo the Bear said:


> You quoted my post twice and didn't say anything. I think the second part is typical but don't get the first part


I posted a video...it didn't work, can't be bothered to fix it...


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

jon bda said:


> I posted a video...it didn't work, can't be bothered to fix it...


and what was the video?


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> No, and nowhere have I said that. However, if this government hadn't allowed millionaires to pay less tax, there would be more in the coffers to help those who need help.
> 
> *Oh yeah - let's shift out the old so the youngsters and their kids can benefit - what a great philosophy that is. *It beats me why people who live in bedsits don't wait to have kids until they have a house - that would be the sensible thing to do rather than to pump out sprog after sprog and expect some old person to give up their home of god knows how many years for them.
> 
> If there were smaller properties for people to move into, your argument might just stand a chance. But as it is, people are stuck in their three bedroom properties having to pay more because there are no smaller properties. Do you think the government didn't realise that when they made these plans? Of course they did - it's just another very sneaky way of raising money from the poor.


Would that be the old who expected a council house when it suited them 40-50 years ago, was they told to wait until they are 40 odd to have kids because they couldn't afford their own house, as if you live by that philosophy these days they wouldn't ever be able to have children  no they got a council house which most don't want to give back to today's needy


----------



## Guest (May 12, 2013)

Elmo the Bear said:


> and what was the video?


I forget...its probably not important...


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> Would that be the old who expected a council house when it suited them 40-50 years ago, was they told to wait until they are 40 odd to have kids because they couldn't afford their own house, as if you live by that philosophy these days they wouldn't ever be able to have children  no they got a council house which most don't want to give back to today's needy


Yes, that would be the elderly people who went on a list for a council house and got their house before starting a family. That would be the elderly people who have lived there with their family for 40-50 years, building and cariong for a family home - living, laughing, loving, crying. That would be the elderly people whose family have now grown up but come back to the family home for regular visits, with grand-children. That would be the elderly people who uncaring people such as yourself now think it is ok to displace miles away from family and loved ones, with no room for their family to come and stay, just because younger people these days want everything now and aren't prepared to wait until they have a proper house before starting a family.

What you and the rest of these younger people are foirgetting in your selfishness is that you will be old one day too. I hope for your sakes that society treats you better than you are prepared to treat today's elderly.


----------



## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Yes, that would be the elderly people who went on a list for a council house and got their house before starting a family. That would be the elderly people who have lived there with their family for 40-50 years, building and cariong for a family home - living, laughing, loving, crying. That would be the elderly people whose family have now grown up but come back to the family home for regular visits, with grand-children. That would be the elderly people who uncaring people such as yourself now think it is ok to displace miles away from family and loved ones, with no room for their family to come and stay, just because younger people these days want everything now and aren't prepared to wait until they have a proper house before starting a family.
> 
> What you and the rest of these younger people are foirgetting in your selfishness is that you will be old one day too. I hope for your sakes that society treats you better than you are prepared to treat today's elderly.


I'm sorry SW but, with the best will in the world, a dog may be for life but a 3-bed rented council house is not. It should only ever be for your needs at that time. Many people who own their own homes downsize when their family flees the nest so why should council tennants be allowed to keep theirs for life?


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Yes, that would be the elderly people who went on a list for a council house and got their house before starting a family. That would be the elderly people who have lived there with their family for 40-50 years, building and cariong for a family home - living, laughing, loving, crying. That would be the elderly people whose family have now grown up but come back to the family home for regular visits, with grand-children. That would be the elderly people who uncaring people such as yourself now think it is ok to displace miles away from family and loved ones, with no room for their family to come and stay, just because younger people these days want everything now and aren't prepared to wait until they have a proper house before starting a family.
> 
> What you and the rest of these younger people are foirgetting in your selfishness is that you will be old one day too. I hope for your sakes that society treats you better than you are prepared to treat today's elderly.


What exactly are you calling elderly  As it only affects people of a working age 

Maybe the elderly of today have had the good years as they got the houses and today's youngsters have no chance of getting a house and you don't give a **** as long as your generation was and is continued to be looked after ..... who's the selfish generation


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> What exactly are you calling elderly  As it only affects people of a working age
> 
> Maybe the elderly of today have had the good years as they got the houses and today's youngsters have no chance of getting a house and you don't give a **** as long as your generation was and is continued to be looked after ..... *who's the selfish generation *


The one that was bought up in the 70s started it but it became worse with those from the 80s and 90s , it then got passed on to the next generation until today when we have an almost entire country (UK) that only cares about number one, sometimes at the expenses of their own children/parents/


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Yes, that would be the elderly people who went on a list for a council house and got their house before starting a family. That would be the elderly people who have lived there with their family for 40-50 years, building and cariong for a family home - living, laughing, loving, crying. That would be the elderly people whose family have now grown up but come back to the family home for regular visits, with grand-children. That would be the elderly people who uncaring people such as yourself now think it is ok to displace miles away from family and loved ones, with no room for their family to come and stay, just because younger people these days want everything now and aren't prepared to wait until they have a proper house before starting a family.
> 
> What you and the rest of these younger people are foirgetting in your selfishness is that you will be old one day too. I hope for your sakes that society treats you better than you are prepared to treat today's elderly.


I would have agreed with you once on this, and maybe still do to some degree but the majority of the council houses are sold now) So perhaps they need to go back to building the sheltered accommodation in local areas where people are happy to move to! My parents (both deceased) their house and garden just got to difficult for them to manage in the end and they went into sheltered accommodation (which is nothing like what it used to be) They were I add happy to move and did stay in the area.

I think now that councils need to make it known that council houses are NOT guaranteed for life, BUT that's a hard one as banks aren't lending and people cant get mortgages
Fact is Val! WE ARE IN A PICKLE


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MoggyBaby said:


> I'm sorry SW but, with the best will in the world, a dog may be for life but a 3-bed rented council house is not. It should only ever be for your needs at that time. Many people who own their own homes downsize when their family flees the nest so why should council tennants be allowed to keep theirs for life?


Private owners are not forced to downsize though, are they? It is their own choice because they want the equity. I am in two minds about this so called bedroom tax because I was recently told about someone who has a council house, but is hardly ever there. They have a nice little place they bought in the country where they now spend most of their time.

I doubt they are the only ones either, so why isn't something done about people like that? I bet many council tenants who have been in their houses for a lot of years, have bought a little weekend place, especially when houses at the coast were really cheap.

They are the ones the government should be looking into.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> I'm sorry SW but, with the best will in the world, a dog may be for life but a 3-bed rented council house is not. It should only ever be for your needs at that time. Many people who own their own homes downsize when their family flees the nest so why should council tennants be allowed to keep theirs for life?


You see, the thing is MB that this is quite a new idea. 40-50 years ago when people rented a council house, provided they paid their rent and did not cause nuisance to their neighbours, the house WAS theirs for life - and if there were adult children left living in the house after the person on the rent-book died, it automatically transferred over to them.

This business of a council house being called social housing and only being let for short periods has only happened in the last few years within the term of this governemnt - and when the government altered the parameters they said at the time that it would not affect present tennants, only new tennants. You can hardly expect someone who has lived somewhere for 50 years and looked upon it as their home for life to be overjoyed that some little twerp in the government has now decreed that it can't be because thanks to Thatcher selling off council houses there are now not enough to go round.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> The one that was bought up in the 70s started it but it became worse with those from the 80s and 90s , it then got passed on to the next generation until today when we have an almost entire country (UK) that only cares about number one, sometimes at the expenses of their own children/parents/


ain't that the truth!
I saw or spoke to my mum almost everyday of her life and nursed her to the end!
Cannot imagine mine will do the same for me!


----------



## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

I just googled the condition this lady had. These sorts of muscle wasting, auto immune conditions can cause depression and I know that because I have one myself......I suspect this lady was struggling with her health, also feeling lonely that her family had moved out and then add to that the pressure of losing £80 a month out of whatever she had to live on, she'd just had enough. 

Now I know that a lot of people become attached to their houses so she was also feeling sad about having to leave...me I can make a home anywhere. I'd be happy to live in a camper van, but thats me and the sort of person I am.


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

rona said:


> The one that was bought up in the 70s started it but it became worse with those from the 80s and 90s , it then got passed on to the next generation until today when we have an almost entire country (UK) that only cares about number one, sometimes at the expenses of their own children/parents/


True i guess .

I just find it funny that some find it not expectable for the the older generation to be housed else where as they should have their *council house * forever but it's ok in peoples eyes to have two generations (parents and their children) have their lives ruined by having to live in a bedsit  and call that generation selfish !


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> What exactly are you calling elderly  As it only affects people of a working age
> 
> Maybe the elderly of today have had the good years as they got the houses and today's youngsters have no chance of getting a house and you don't give a **** as long as your generation was and is continued to be looked after ..... who's the selfish generation


Certainly not the generation who have lived and worked and paid taxes all their lives, and now who you want to dismiss as if they were not people but merely nuisances you have to put up with.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Lavenderb said:


> I just googled the condition this lady had. These sorts of muscle wasting, auto immune conditions can cause depression and I know that because I have one myself......I suspect this lady was struggling with her health, also feeling lonely that her family had moved out and then add to that the pressure of losing £80 a month out of whatever she had to live on, she'd just had enough.
> 
> Now I know that a lot of people become attached to their houses so she was also feeling sad about having to leave...me I can make a home anywhere. I'd be happy to live in a camper van, but thats me and the sort of person I am.


I was told, don't know how right it was that the lady had several illnesses and that she could have got more benefit.

But anyway!! If I could call it my own then I'd love to live in a campervan
No more hoovering


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

How old would Shakespeare be if still alive..

My favourite quote of his is "Every step a human takes is for himself'...

How true is that?

And that is true since the first human began...not just the 70s.....


----------



## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *God help those that have never had a suicide in their family, and never understood why.*


Well *I* have... and unfortunately one was very recent.



simplysardonic said:


> Back on track, it's a terrible tragedy  I feel for her & feel for her family, also have a lot of sympathy for the poor driver, can't imagine how distressing it must have been for him


Exactly!

The driver has been dragged into this without knowing any of the family or their problems.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

jon bda said:


> In case of medical emergency, i'd be calling an ambulance before knocking on the neighbours door...


That's the difference between some neighbourhoods and others.

Not every 'emergency' warrants an ambulance, if you phone the out of hours doctor for advice and they tell you to come in to A&E to have it checked out and not wait till morning, you are supposed to drive yourself or get a cab. But cabs were in rather short supply that night.

Our neighbours have woken us, too, when she had to be taken to hospital to have her baby. We slept in their house with the other children, so the father could go to hospital with her. Grandmother arrived around breakfast time and took over.

These things go without saying in a neighbourhood like ours, when the need arises, you are there for one another.


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Certainly not the generation who have lived and worked and paid taxes all their lives, and now who you want to dismiss as if they were not people but merely nuisances you have to put up with.


Sorry my generation is also working and paying it's taxes and getting a lot less back in return  and will continue to do so !

So come on this only affects working age people ( arguably paying taxes ) yet you go on as if it's 80 year old's being staved to death !


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

DT said:


> ain't that the truth!
> I saw or spoke to my mum almost everyday of her life and nursed her to the end!
> *Cannot imagine mine will do the same for me*!


Life is harder now though, more difficult to devote that much time to physically care.

However, it was more the mindset I was meaning. Some just don't seem to get that what they do or don't do has an effect on others, and to be honest, I think a lot don't care at all


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

I have tried to commit suicide on numerous occasions due to the Bipolar. Horrible, dark and scary place to be

It's always been the straw that broke the camels back with me.. probably not something big to someone else.. but when you're that low and emotional energy is non existent.. that's often the case.

To the people who say suicide is selfish.. no it's not, it's a reaction to extreme emotional pain. Most people do ask for help in the weeks leading up to the event, but it's not always forth coming


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> Sorry my generation is also working and paying it's taxes and getting a lot less back in return  and will continue to do so !


Which is presumably why your generation is stamping their feet and throwing their toys out of the pram like spoilt kids who want it all and want it NOW and because they can't have it all and have it NOW are jealous of anyone they perceive to have more than them.



Pointermum said:


> So come on this only affects working age people ( arguably paying taxes ) yet you go on as if it's 80 year old's being staved to death !


Not at all - I am talking about the people YOU first brought up in this post:



Pointermum said:


> Would that be the old who expected a council house when it suited them 40-50 years ago, :


ie people who have lived in their council house 40-50 years, nothing at all to do with starving 80 year olds. Don't start making things up just because you're losing your argument.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Think it's worth mentioning just in case it's news to anybody that when feeling depressed and if you have nobody you feel you can talk to, the samaritans are always available. Details can be found at Samaritans | Samaritans

They are also looking for volunteers, not just "listening volunteers" but also for things like administration, fundraising, finance and IT support.


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Which is presumably why your generation is stamping their feet and throwing their toys out of the pram like spoilt kids who want it all and want it NOW and because they can't have it all and have it NOW are jealous of anyone they perceive to have more than them.
> 
> i'm the one of the younger generation and who's ok with the cuts no stamping feet.... that would be you
> 
> ...


what :confused1: 
if they have lived in their house 40-50 years then the chances are their NOT affected


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Don't start making things up just because you're losing your argument.


In whose eyes is she losing the argument?


----------



## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

According to the news tonight a lot of what caused that poor lady to commit suicide was her attachment to her house and her garden and her pets buried there, 
I can quite understand how she felt,as i have lived here for over 30 years and wouldnt want to move, luckily i dont have to, 
Also are all the people slating people who live in council houses off ,living in one,i guess not, lucky enough to own their own i bet
What about councils handing 2and 3 bed houses to single mothers, i know of 2 personally who both got a 3 bedroom house,and 1 of them was only 16,
Someone said[sorry not good at posting links] she wasnt having to pay £80 a month they were deducting it from her benefits, same thing isnt it£80 a month less income
As for suicide ,yes i have had that too in my family, a son in law,


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

DT said:


> In whose eyes is she losing the argument?


Mine ...........


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Mine ...........


They tell me there are two sides to every story!
I don't believe it either!


----------



## click (Dec 23, 2011)

Hundreds of thousands of council houses were built in the latter years of the Great Depression. Hundreds of the council estates were built in those years.
Tens of thousands of prefabs were hastily built during and after the war to ease the housing crisis.
Funds were made available in those dark days of money crisis, unemployment, and later,war.

If we are now in another housing crisis is it beyond the governments of today to find the funds to build hundreds of small estates of prefabricated one and two bedroom accomodation? Modern prefabrication techniques could have these built within months.

Jobs would be created too.



.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> i'm the one of the younger generation and who's ok with the cuts no stamping feet:


Of course you're ok with the cuts - you feel its ok to turf older people out of their homes to make way for younger people. The stamping of feet referred to all your comments about older people having houses when younger people can't have them whine whine whine ad nauseum.



Pointermum said:


> so it's ok for your generation to have suitable housing but not this


So it's ok for your generation to have kids when you can't house them properly and then expect someone else to give up their home for you?


----------



## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> <snip>
> It beats me why people who live in bedsits don't wait to have kids until they have a house - that would be the sensible thing to do rather than to pump out sprog after sprog and expect some old person to give up their home of god knows how many years for them.
> <snip>


I've only quoted the bit of your post I want to answer.

Do you really believe everyone living in a bedsit is there by choice?
You really think they 'pump out sprog after sprog and expect an old person to give up their home' for them?

What about the family that has had their house repossessed? 
The family where the dad was out having affairs all over the place and just didnt pay the mortgage? 
The family where the dad was in charge of the finances so the mum didnt know what was going? 
The family where she couldn't have done anything anyway as she worked part time in a greengrocers so she could be there for her twins before and after school?

That family that gets rehoused into a bedsit for 18 months while they are waiting for a proper sized home to become available. The twins are 15 at the time, a boy and a girl, all three sharing a bedsit.

Thats the reality of a _lot_ of people in bedsits.

I should know - I am the girl twin.

I don't always agree with your posts, but I don't think you have ever made me feel angry and upset by what you post - you usually think about what you are saying and are not usually so close minded.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I doubt, because of her frame of mind, she thought about the driver.*


No and her misery is over but that poor driver has to live with that memory for as long as he lives because the woman could not have chosen another less messy way to commit suicide.

So once again, the misery of one has infected the lives of others.

All her family who will spend years feeling guilty.

the lorry driver who may never drive again and thus earn a living for his dependants.

the police and paramedics who have to clean up what is left.

But of course HER misery is much worse than that she has inflicted on everyone else.

Selfish.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

click said:


> Hundreds of thousands of council houses were built in the latter years of the Great Depression. Hundreds of the council estates were built in those years.
> Tens of thousands of prefabs were hastily built during and after the war to ease the housing crisis.
> Funds were made available in those dark days of money crisis, unemployment, and later,war.
> 
> ...


Spot on. Not only would housing be provided, it would kick start the economy. Jobs would be created, which would mean more people spending more money, which would mean more manufacturing was needed, which would create more jobs, whcih would mean more people spending more money, which would mean more manufacturing was needed, whihc would create more jobs - and we're on an upwards spiral to prosperity.

Now (at the risk of boring Pointersmum yet again) wouldn't it have been wiser for the government to have spent money on a housing program like the one you outline above rather than giving millionaires and extra 25K in tax relief?


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Sounds more like her last child moving out tipped her over the edge, but she had only been on her own for 2 months, the reduction in her HB may have simply added to her depression

its the HGV driver I feel sorry for, lets hope her son doesnt experience any suicides, its ironic he is a HGV driver...


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

click said:


> Hundreds of thousands of council houses were built in the latter years of the Great Depression. Hundreds of the council estates were built in those years.
> Tens of thousands of prefabs were hastily built during and after the war to ease the housing crisis.
> 
> Jobs would be created too.


They cant be built now cos so many NIMBY's dont want estates built in their area...


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Of course you're ok with the cuts - you feel its ok to turf older people out of their homes to make way for younger people. The stamping of feet referred to all your comments about older people having houses when younger people can't have them whine whine whine ad nauseum.
> 
> So it's ok for your generation to have kids when you can't house them properly and then expect someone else to give up their home for you?


Peoples expectations surrounding social housing needs to change, UNTIL such a time, if ever that it is plentiful again, maybe houses should be allocated on short leases, say 5 years and not for life

I am not saying that older people should be forced from their homes by any means, but they should be encouraged to downsize.

And the people who I feel most sorry for in all of this is the young couples in private rented both working for minimum wage, they have not got a cat in hells chance of getting onto the housing ladder, nor in many cases affording children


----------



## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Spot on. Not only would housing be provided, it would kick start the economy. Jobs would be created, which would mean more people spending more money, which would mean more manufacturing was needed, which would create more jobs, whcih would mean more people spending more money, which would mean more manufacturing was needed, whihc would create more jobs - and we're on an upwards spiral to prosperity.
> 
> Now (at the risk of boring Pointersmum yet again) wouldn't it have been wiser for the government to have spent money on a housing program like the one you outline above rather than giving millionaires and extra 25K in tax relief?


This would be alright except for the amount of people that would protest because they might ruin the nest of the lesser spotted boo boo bird.
It would work fine til the not on my doorstep brigade came into force.
Everything works fine until it ruins some ones view.


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

How about the homeless young people move in with the ones with the bigger social housing?


----------



## click (Dec 23, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Now (at the risk of boring Pointersmum yet again) wouldn't it have been wiser for the government to have spent money on a housing program like the one you outline above rather than giving millionaires and extra 25K in tax relief?


I was thinking more of priorities,ie thousands of desperately needed houses.Or a multi billion pound High speed railway.
No contest to my mind.

As for the lady.I would have thought deep depression,illness,and suddenly facing life on her own rather than just reduction of benefits would have taken her over the edge.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

MCWillow said:


> I've only quoted the bit of your post I want to answer.
> 
> Do you really believe everyone living in a bedsit is there by choice?
> You really think they 'pump out sprog after sprog and expect an old person to give up their home' for them?
> ...


Sorry McWillow - you are right. I was responding to Pointersmum in kind and I don't really believe that everyone in a bedsit is there "pumping out sprogs" just to get a council house.

I am truly sorry that this upset and angered you.

I realise that people can end up in bedsits through no fault of their own, and that life cannot be good when this happens. However, neither do I think that expecting people to leave their homes to make way for people in bedsits is fair either. I think that there* is *a solution - as Click said, begin a housing program.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> No and her misery is over but that poor driver has to live with that memory for as long as he lives because the woman could not have chosen another less messy way to commit suicide.
> 
> So once again, the misery of one has infected the lives of others.
> 
> ...


*SELFISH? how on gods earth can you call her selfish? the poor woman wasn't in her right mind.
If you or anyone else can't get your head around that simple fact, you have no right to judge.*


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

But we dont need new houses!! There r empty houses everywhere...!! Or people living in houses that are too big!!


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

MissShelley said:


> *I've been there myself but even in the darkest place* I could never leave Jon and my boys. They are my world, my everything, I know with them by my side I can get through anything life throws at me.....I could never impact my decisions on their lives, not to mention the impact on people who have to literally scrape up your remains....It is true, life is what you make of it. Fate plays a little part, but it has to come from you, your own actions influence your decisions.


With all due respect, the part highlighted in red would suggest you clearly haven't been in that situation at all based on the rest of your comment that followed. Im sure you have been in a dark place and have even been depressed but those who reach the point where they try to take their own life are by far in a much darker, more desperate situation. A situation where rational thinking such as not leaving ones loved ones behind, doesn't come into their heads. Not through selfishness but because they feel they are actually a burden and are convinced that their loved ones would be better off without them.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

gorgeous said:


> But we dont need new houses!! There r empty houses everywhere...!! Or people living in houses that are too big!!


The government could compulsory repurchase all the council housing they sold off!
That would perhaps make them popular again as selling em off made em unpopular in the first place

it was a JOKE


----------



## click (Dec 23, 2011)

Firedog said:


> This would be alright except for the amount of people that would protest because they might ruin the nest of the lesser spotted boo boo bird.
> It would work fine til the not on my doorstep brigade came into force.
> Everything works fine until it ruins some ones view.


There are thousands of brown field sites standing idle.Owned by holding companies and speculators who will happily leave them wasteland for years.These could be compulsory purchased at a fair price by government for the good of the country.


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *SELFISH? how on gods earth can you call her selfish? the poor woman wasn't in her right mind.
> If you or anyone else can't get your head around that simple fact, you have no right to judge.*


I don't think Smokeybear was saying SHE was selfish - just that she chose a selfish way to commit suicide, which is absolutely true & I wholeheartedly agree with!

Yes of course, any suicide will have a massive impact on friends and relatives of the person, but why do it in a way that will involve people who otherwise would have had nothing to do with it? Why mess up that poor lorry drivers life? I know that the woman wasn't thinking straight or whatever but if someone really wants to end their life, surely it can be done in a way that doesn't leave a totally unrelated person feeling like they have effectively killed someone.

The whole situation is extremely sad but my heart goes out to the driver of that lorry - the lady who committed suicide is gone now, but that lorry driver has to see that every time he closes his eyes


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

MissShelley said:


> Well, that's your opinion. Based on a few lines of text. Not going to argue back, not worth it
> 
> Keep seeing what you want. That's fine by me


It's my opinion based on what you stated your way of thinking was. I wasn't trying to argue, merely stating fact. As it's impossible to say you have felt the same way when you have already stated that your way of thinking was different.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

gorgeous said:


> But we dont need new houses!! There r empty houses everywhere...!! Or people living in houses that are too big!!


Of course we need new council houses - waiting lists are far too long. There always used to be enough council housing for everyone - we need to return to that time instead of expecting one section of needy people to move out of their homes to make way for another section of needy people.

And in any case, in many areas there is no smaller property for these people to be moved to. The whole business is a government scam in order to impose another tax.

The "bedroom tax" is merely another way for the government to divide and conquer - get us arguing amongst ourselves again whilst they quietly get on with the business of raking in still more money from the poor.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> SELFISH? how on Gods earth can you call her selfish? the poor woman wasn't in her right mind.
> If you or anyone else can't get your head around that simple fact, you have no right to judge


Many would say only her problems mattered to her, that could be said to be selfish, she didnt consider the effects of her actions on her family or the HGV driver either, I think she had a bad case of empty nest syndrome, plus a bit of HB woes, but at the end of the day she had 3 bedrooms and only needed one, many home owners have a need for extra bedrooms but cannot afford one, i dont see them walking under a truck....


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *SELFISH? how on gods earth can you call her selfish? the poor woman wasn't in her right mind.
> If you or anyone else can't get your head around that simple fact, you have no right to judge.*


I am sure you have the same sympathy for others not in their right minds who do things like:

kill perfect strangers
set fire to their children, or hang them

the list is endless but I am sure you do not judge them or think ill of them, no doubt you are busy trying to find something or someone to blame rather than the individual.

Hopefully if and when any of YOUR loved ones are killed by someone not in their right mind, you will be able to extend your concerns to the perpetrator and pass no judgement whatsoever on them.

When is the next beatification by the way? ut:


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

MissShelley said:


> Have to agree.
> 
> Not going into details, but we lost someone very close. His mother also took her life, which I believed had an impact.
> 
> ...


Ok since I've tried to kill myself you will call me selfish.

Depression is an illness.. I'm not talking about the Monday morning blues, but the dark, endless depression. It's so awful you just want an escape.

Suicide is not selfish.. it's a response to unbearable pain


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Of course we need new council houses - waiting lists are far too long. There always used to be enough council housing for everyone - we need to return to that time instead of expecting one section of needy people to move out of their homes to make way for another section of needy people.
> 
> And in any case, in many areas there is no smaller property for these people to be moved to. The whole business is a government scam in order to impose another tax.
> 
> The "bedroom tax" is merely another way for the government to divide and conquer - get us arguing amongst ourselves again whilst they quietly get on with the business of raking in still more money from the poor.


There are many empty properties.

And poor versus rich and vice versa. I am not one nor the other - probs in the middle but that is my choice down to my chosen career path and lifestyle.

Some people are victims and some are survivors.

We need the rich - we need them here in this country right now. We need their taxes and we need their spending power. Always have done and always will. And if an extra tax allowance encourages them to stay in this country and to spend more then right now that can only be a good thing.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> Ok since I've tried to kill myself you will call me selfish.
> 
> Depression is an illness.. I'm not talking about the Monday morning blues, but the dark, endless depression. It's so awful you just want an escape.
> 
> Suicide is not selfish.. it's a response to unbearable pain


It IS selfish when you involved other people in your way out.

You can kill yourself without using another person to help you

put a bag over your head
take an overdose
sit in your car and fill it full of fumes

the list is endless

YOUR unbearable pain is no GREATER than that of the people who have to clear up the mess or cannot put the brakes on their lorry, train, car etc because when you are DEAD your pain is over.

So to walk out in front of an innocent driver who is trying not to have an accident is selfishness of the highest order.

What about the UNBEARABLE PAIN suicides cause others? Or does that not matter?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

gorgeous said:


> There are many empty properties.
> 
> And poor versus rich and vice versa. I am not one nor the other - probs in the middle but that is my choice down to my chosen career path and lifestyle.
> 
> ...


There are seven classes now by the way


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

DT said:


> There are seven classes now by the way


ahem.... isn't it past your bedtime now Mrs?!?! :001_tt2:


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Tigerneko said:


> ahem.... isn't it past your bedtime now Mrs?!?! :001_tt2:


Way past my bedtime...but some things are too good to miss!!


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> It IS selfish when you involved other people in your way out.
> 
> You can kill yourself without using another person to help you
> 
> ...


*You are talking about 2 different frames of mind. One is choosing " in their right frame of mind" to do something, the other is doing something they wouldn't be doing in their right frame of mind.
God i can't believe that in 2013 people still don't get mental illness.*


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *You are talking about 2 different frames of mind. One is choosing " in their right frame of mind" to do something, the other is doing something they wouldn't be doing in their right frame of mind.
> God i can't believe that in 2013 people still don't get mental illness.*


Only fully qualified medical people can trully get mental illness.

Still does not make it right some of the actions carried out by people with mental illnesses.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

gorgeous said:


> Only fully qualified medical people can trully get mental illness.
> 
> Still does not make it right some of the actions carried out by people with mental illnesses.


*I've not said anywhere that it was right.*


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I've not said anywhere that it was right.*


You certainly implied it.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

gorgeous said:


> You certainly implied it.


Being understanding of the actions of someone suffering with a mental illness is by no means implying that it is condoned.


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Being understanding of the actions of someone suffering with a mental illness is by no means implying that it is condoned.


Thanks for that clarification. Will sleep better now for knowing that. Have learnt something new tonight!!


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

gorgeous said:


> You certainly implied it.


*Coming from a social worker, i would have thought you would have had an open mind also.*


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Coming from a social worker, i would have thought you would have had an open mind also.*


Got the mother and daughter team now have i? Yes i am a social wirker what has that got to do with you? I have used my professionalism to not repeat what your daughter aired on this forum. Now i know u dont like me and that is your perogative. But keep your insults to yourself ok.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

gorgeous said:


> Got the mother and daughter team now have i? Yes i am a social wirker what has that got to do with you? I have used my professionalism to not repeat what your daughter aired on this forum. Now i know u dont like me and that is your perogative. But keep your insults to yourself ok.


So let me get this straight. I quote you on a comment to correct you because of your misunderstanding and that equates to a mother and daughter ganging up on you? Yes you implied that, although not your 'actual' wording. Then you claim to be professional but get personal by dragging up sh!t from the past? If you and my mother disagree, do not drag me into your sh!t as i do not wish to be dragged down to your level.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

gorgeous said:


> Got the mother and daughter team now have i? Yes i am a social wirker what has that got to do with you? I have used my professionalism to not repeat what your daughter aired on this forum. Now i know u dont like me and that is your perogative. But keep your insults to yourself ok.


*Erm you have stated more than once that you are a social worker. I only stated it because it was relevant to what you said. Now where was the insult?*


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> So let me get this straight. I quote you on a comment to correct you because of your misunderstanding and that equates to a mother and daughter ganging up on you? Yes you implied that, although not your 'actual' wording. Then you claim to be professional but get personal by dragging up sh!t from the past? If you and my mother disagree, do not drag me into your sh!t as i do not wish to be dragged down to your level.


Thanks for that.


----------



## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

gorgeous said:


> You should be on stage luv...quite the comedian....you could put down the hacklers no bother....your daughter could help write the script incase u struggle...you could be a mixture of joe brand crossed with micky flannagan....now that would be good to watch...


I asked you earlier not to drag me into your disagreements you have with my mother, yet you continue to do so. Ive no idea what your problem is but i suggest you get it sorted. You can argue the toss with whoever you like till you're blue in the face but if you're going to start dragging me into it for no reason, then don't expect my responses to be so polite in the future. Your call.


----------



## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I am sure you have the same sympathy for others not in their right minds who do things like:
> 
> kill perfect strangers
> set fire to their children, or hang them
> ...


How can you even compare someone who is suicidal to murderers and child killers? they do not fall in the same category, granted they all might not be in the right frame of mind but someone who kills people compared to someone who wants to die is completely different.

When someone makes the decision to end their life it is normally a desperate shout for help or they just cannot deal with the emotional torture any more and trust me emotional pain is the worst type of pain you can experience.

Someone who murders someone does it because maybe they're a psychopath or maybe they're psychotic or maybe they have deep anger issues.

If you had actually dealt with depression you wouldn't make such stupid comments. I know this is just a silly forum but it actually upset me to read what you had wrote.

I bet some of you are actually smug that this lady has died because you don't agree that she should have a larger house than you see fit for her to have. Because you make a pathetic tax contribution every month from your wages you think this gives you a right to dictate how others should live? some people make me sick.

Financial stress is enough to drive someone to suicide, it might just be £20 to you but to other people that's a lot of money out of their benefits.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Royoyo said:


> How can you even compare someone who is suicidal to murderers and child killers? they do not fall in the same category, granted they all might not be in the right frame of mind but someone who kills people compared to someone who wants to die is completely different.
> 
> When someone makes the decision to end their life it is normally a desperate shout for help or they just cannot deal with the emotional torture any more and trust me emotional pain is the worst type of pain you can experience.
> 
> ...


So those husband/fathers and wives/mothers who kill their children and then kill themselves are TOTALLY different to people who just kill themselves are they?

Do you really believe that such people are pscyhopaths, psychotic or just have deep anger issues?

If you had any understanding of such incidents or had dealt with the fall out of these incidents you would not make such stupid comments.

I really upsets me to see what you wrote.

And if you seriously think that anyone is actually SMUG because of some views about the size of housing then I think you need to seek professional help yourself.

What a SICK thing to say!

Some people make me sick


----------



## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> So those husband/fathers and wives/mothers who kill their children and then kill themselves are TOTALLY different to people who just kill themselves are they?
> 
> Do you really believe that such people are pscyhopaths, psychotic or just have deep anger issues?
> 
> ...


Yes they are actually, they obviously have something else going on other than feeling suicidal or depressed themselves. I really do believe they are psychopaths or psychotic or have deep anger issues to be honest.

Why what do you think is wrong with them? do you just think they're normal people who decide one day to get up and kill their children? they must have something seriously wrong with them to want to kill other people.

I just was curious to know why you dragged murderers and child killers into the picture when this is obviously about a woman who killed herself NOT her children ?  two TOTALLY DIFFERENT things.

I didn't say YOU were smug about her dying I said I bet SOME people are.

And I have sought professional help in the past, had therapy for a few years but thanks for the advice


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

There has been alot of posts that are really out of order. I don't want to close this as I don't have time tonight to mod it, so I am trusting you will behave Please. Tomorrow is Arraignment day in court on murder 2 charges for the man who re offended 15 months after being released from murdering my son and somehow that takes precedence over you guys...Sorry....

I am going to do a quick edit but won't be complete, report any that you wish removed as there are other mods on way earlier than I will be tomorrow


----------



## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> There has been alot of posts that are really out of order. I don't want to close this as I don't have time tonight to mod it, so I am trusting you will behave Please. Tomorrow is Arraignment day in court on murder 2 charges for the man who re offended 15 months after being released from murdering my son and somehow that takes precedence over you guys...Sorry....
> 
> I am going to do a quick edit but won't be complete, report any that you wish removed as there are other mods on way earlier than I will be tomorrow


Jill, you go do what's Important and see that justice is finally brought for your boy...this place pales in comparison x

I will say one little thing though at yet another ungodly hour (the joys of m.e.) , that whilst feeling suicidal is an awful dark place to be...I'd never want to involve another human being in actually doing it. As another poster said...there are more peaceful ways to do it without involving others and leaving them with the memory or even causing others to die trying to avoid killing you. I hope the lorry driver will recover mentally in time....none of us know what he saw. And may the lady rest in peace, free from her troubles.


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Jill, you go do what's Important and see that justice is finally brought for your boy...this place pales in comparison x
> 
> I will say one little thing though at yet another ungodly hour (the joys of m.e.) , that whilst feeling suicidal is an awful dark place to be...I'd never want to involve another human being in actually doing it. As another poster said...there are more peaceful ways to do it without involving others and leaving them with the memory or even causing others to die trying to avoid killing you. I hope the lorry driver will recover mentally in time....none of us know what he saw. And may the lady rest in peace, free from her troubles.


Totally agree with the above...clearly the poor lady was in a bad place mentally and as much as the bedroom tax will have been a factor in the awful incident...I very much doubt it was to blame. There has to have been other upsets in this ladys life. It really is very sad all round.

I cannot imagine what would have to happen in my life for me not to be around to support my kids and family by choice.


----------



## nutty (Feb 17, 2013)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Being understanding of the actions of someone suffering with a mental illness is by no means implying that it is condoned.


I believe it is known as EMPATHY


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Royoyo said:


> Yes they are actually, they obviously have something else going on other than feeling suicidal or depressed themselves. I really do believe they are psychopaths or psychotic or have deep anger issues to be honest.
> 
> Why what do you think is wrong with them? do you just think they're normal people who decide one day to get up and kill their children? they must have something seriously wrong with them to want to kill other people.
> 
> ...


So just to get this straight, someone who commits suicide is in deep depression etc BUT someone who does something else THEN commits suicide is a completely different kettle of fish.

I have not dragged murderers and child killers into this, read the news, there are PLENTY of parents who kill their families and THEN commit suicide. I am curious as to why you differentiate between them.

And surely being psychotic or a psychopath or having deep anger issues = having mental health issues.

So, are you saying that ONE sort of mental health deserves sympathy but not the OTHER? 

Are you making a VALUE judgement on mental health issues?

As someone who has had mental health issues and sought professional help I find this outlook even MORE appalling.

Amazing.


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

Have not read the whole thread just my little ol' opinion x 

Sometimes its not the trigger thats the problem, its the fact they were in place in their mind where this was their only option x 

Unfortunately what you find is if someone is depressed and unstable anything could have triggered it, a parking fine etc.

So its not the evil governments fault from their evil policies - its the fact that this person had some sort of mental imbalance that was missed by those close to her x


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

This has just been mentioned on daybreak, i hear so many times that the media only print or air what they want to protect the government, well in this case the tables have turned because what they failed to mention was that she had been offered a property, a bungalow but she turned it down.They also failed to mention her other problems that as i said in my very first post which had more than likely contributed to her suicide.


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Of course you're ok with the cuts - you feel its ok to turf older people out of their homes to make way for younger people. The stamping of feet referred to all your comments about older people having houses when younger people can't have them whine whine whine ad nauseum.
> 
> So it's ok for your generation to have kids when you can't house them properly and then expect someone else to give up their home for you?


So council tenets should have their houses for life ? So if they had a 4 bed house like my sister you think she has the right to have that house until she dies because she likes her garden and neighbours  The council have to maintain that for her , so in affect she's got better tonnes better than someone who's worked their arse off bought a house who can no longer afford to maintain such a property when they get older so have to sell up 

It just can't go on like that.

On the local council list most accommodation available is one bed warden assisted living accommodation, only available for the over 55.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

It ridiculous to say or think when you are in rented property that you have it for life, you have it for the duration and thats all, the duration while your children are growing up and needing the extra bedrooms, a garden and more space of a bigger house, many people went into council housing years ago through choice, they opted to use their money in other ways it was cheaper to rent, all repairs taken care of ect, ime afraid they cant have it all ways.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> This has just been mentioned on daybreak, i hear so many times that the media only print or air what they want to protect the government, well in this case the tables have turned because what they failed to mention was that she had been offered a property, a bungalow but she turned it down.They also failed to mention her other problems that as i said in my very first post which had more than likely contributed to her suicide.


*I'm not surprised she had " other " problems..Ever heard the saying " the straw that broke the camels back?*


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

My parents have big house..too big and expensive for them now so my brother and his girlfriend chose to live there...else it has to be sold....

imagine my parents asking the state for donation so they can stay in their home, with their beloved garden etc...?


I have small flat...one of the reason not to get bigger is that when kids grow up I can still keep it...
I could have got council housing years back..but it also meant we may then have to move to small "granny flat"...


Why should I pay my taxes for someones' extra bedroom when my boy and girl have to share one? 

No economy will endure such extras ..
Why so many owners have to sell and downsize..often with great regret..but pension will not cover the costs of the maintenance...
Why state will not help those elderly people?


Why some animals are more equal than others?


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm not surprised she had " other " problems..Ever heard the saying " the straw that broke the camels back?*


but it could have been any straw - she obviously had an issue, and you will find that if it was not this it would have been something else - so the bottom line is

it was not the bedroom tax which killed her it was her own mental state!!

and I am from the camp of beggars cant be choosers, if you are in the need/receipt of council/social housing then you live where is affordable for you, and I know of plenty of families waiting for housing in bedsits 4 to a room and plenty of 1-2 people in 3-4 bedroom places x its selfish x


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> It ridiculous to say or think when you are in rented property that you have it for life, you have it for the duration and thats all, the duration while your children are growing up and needing the extra bedrooms, a garden and more space of a bigger house, many people went into council housing years ago through choice, they opted to use their money in other ways it was cheaper to rent, all repairs taken care of ect, ime afraid they cant have it all ways.


All those years ago, it was not just council houses that people expected to rent for life. They had different laws for tenants then, and people could actually rent a private house and expect to stay there forever.

My in-laws rented a bungalow just before the war and were there for fifty years, at least she was, and because of the rules when they first rented it, they were still paying the same paltry rent and the landlord was paying the rates. They used to tell everyone they owned it, and the landlord offered them money to move many times. He even offered to sell it to them for a quarter of what it was worth but they wouldn't have it. They believed it was more secure for them than getting into debt with a mortgage.

The landlord sold his own house, put all his money into his business and moved in with his brother, and took MIL to court saying he and his wheelchair bound wife had nowhere to live.

It was the only way to get his property back.

So it is not surprising that people in council houses expected to have them for life. But it is only people on housing benefit who are being asked to move, not people who are paying their own way. Nobody is putting the rent up, are they?

What I do object to is people being asked to moved from a house they have been in for years because there is not enough social housing for our younger people, when the last three pupils I had could barely speak English and all had housing association houses.

I say no more.


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

I've been homeless 3 times since my early 20's. On the streets twice, and in an horrible hostel for a year.

I'm just grateful that I do have a council flat  a home to call my own, which is secure and safe.. very grateful


----------



## Typewriter (May 12, 2013)

I think it is really sad, that you can live in a Council Property and bring your children up and in the end when you are getting older you cannot remain in the property till you decide to get a smaller property or die. They are asking tenants to downsize, but there just is not the properties to downsize too. The government are just greedy cutting services and making us pay more, where does this bedroom tax money go? We have friends that are in properties that they have lived in since they were built, children have all gown up and they want to stay they are happy and feel safe they have friends and family all around them, why should they be forced to pay more money or move. The country is over populated and who's fault is that? They should be focusing on that problem.


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

That poor driver : /


----------



## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

cloversmum said:


> Ok since I've tried to kill myself you will call me selfish.
> 
> Depression is an illness.. I'm not talking about the Monday morning blues, but the dark, endless depression. It's so awful you just want an escape.
> 
> Suicide is not selfish.. it's a response to unbearable pain


Yep, I'm aware of depression being an illness having suffered it myself. Just because my views differ, doesn't mean to say I haven't been through it.


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

MissShelley said:


> Yep, I'm aware of depression being an illness having suffered it myself. Just because my views differ, doesn't mean to say I haven't been through it.


I never said you haven't been through it


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Typewriter said:


> We have friends that are in properties that they have lived in since they were built, children have all gown up and they want to stay they are happy and feel safe they have friends and family all around them, why should they be forced to pay more money or move.


Benefits should be a safety net, not a right to exploit.

Why should people be able to stay in a large house when those who work often can't even get on the property ladder? You rent a house when working and pay for the size of the house. Rent levels can be adjusted. If you cannot afford it you have to move. Why should people on benefit, given a place to live expect better treatment than those who work?

Systems do need to be in place that people aren't penalized when no property exists and to protect those who need protection. However the emphasis isn't on the fact that these protections need to be implemented. It's a reflection on society that those complaining are simply saying "not fair" rather on making the logical system work whilst protecting those vulnerable. Those arguing against the bedroom tax frequently push it towards a them and us situation which boils down to the first sentence. Do you believe benefits are a right to exploit?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Benefits should be a safety net, not a right to exploit.
> 
> Why should people be able to stay in a large house when those who work often can't even get on the property ladder? You rent a house when working and pay for the size of the house. Rent levels can be adjusted. If you cannot afford it you have to move. Why should people on benefit, given a place to live expect better treatment than those who work?
> 
> Systems do need to be in place that people aren't penalized when no property exists and to protect those who need protection. However the emphasis isn't on the fact that these protections need to be implemented. It's a reflection on society that those complaining are simply saying "not fair" rather on making the logical system work whilst protecting those vulnerable.


Yes, I agree with you with the benifits
But where the housing is concerned I really don't know the answer, People just cannot afford to buy these days, even first time buyers are getting into their thirties before the can get onto the ladder.

I think there needs much stricter stipulations surrounding social housing , maybe like in the private sector where leases are for much shorter periods.
BUT! that sad it is perhaps sad that this only really applies to those on benefits. And NO I am not suggesting that those who are completely self sufficient should have to downsize but any changes need to be carefully considered otherwise it will look to be discriminating against the poor. And if that happens we'll be seeing workhouses again.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

if those who own property have to downsize..because cannot afford it?..why different rules for those who rent?

Often people have to move to smaller house even though it is very inconvienient...uprooting kids..losing friends?

Whether you rent private property or from state rules should be the same?
Obviously council should move people around the same location ..much as possible...
Arranging house swaps etc...


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

The problem is with downsizing is that there isn't enough smaller accommodation for people to move to.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> if those who own property have to downsize..because cannot afford it?..why different rules for those who rent?
> 
> Often people have to move to smaller house even though it is very inconvienient...uprooting kids..losing friends?
> 
> ...


Yes, exactly, what a valid argument - looking at it from that side you are 100% right!
Now get your name down for prime minister


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Its very sad  ....I think again this is the Government making rash decisions without really thinking through the ramifications....and why ?? because over the last 20yrs I think they have really messed up with the housing ....and who suffers?? yet again its the most vulnerable and needy 

Many older people who have raised their families,become part of a community,lived their whole lives in one home are now being asked to pay up or move on .....I think its very unfair .....yes the house is not theirs but for many to move is a frightening thing - away from their family and friends and neighbourhoods - they are being penalised IMO for the many EFF UPS that the goverment have made with regard to housing...

They have NOT allocated housing properly for years now ...and with the huge influx of families from other countries coming here and raising families its no wonder we are at the situ we are. Im not against people coming here to live and work as you all know BUT there has to be enough housing in the first place to allow this to happen - and the Goverment have not made enough social housing to allow this to happen -hence the shortage.

Along with that we have the cycle of young girls getting pregnant to "get a council house" syndrome - again something that the governments have allowed to progress and grow for the last 20 odd years ...its WRONG - why should young girls be rewarded and entitled to this ??? it is there for those that genuinely need it but has been openly abused for too long imo.

Im also very confused at this "lack of housing" that keeps getting mentioned ....in Nottm alone there are HUNDREDS of empty houses/flats,buildings going derilict they could make all of these social housing !

This lady was obviously desperate - she was already in a vulnerable state of mind and this probably just threw her over the edge - the government/councils need to support these decisions they make a little better - and realise that for many this is a very scary change and that they will need help with it .....not just thrown to the bloody lions! - suicide is never an easy decision - nor is it a rational one - it is born from desperation and extreme unhappiness - I find it very sad that so many people have so little empathy or understanding when it comes to suicide its not as straight cut as most people think

My work colleagues husband killed himself when she was pregnant with their child ...he had everything to live for a family a great homelife, a job ....a new baby on the way ....

They were due to go out for the day one sunday and she went upstairs to hurry him up cos they were late and she couldnt open the bedroom door ....her dad had to break the door down ...he had hung himself and had fallen and slumped against the door ......

What possesed him??? no one will ever know but to leave a family and pregnant wife shows how desperate he must have been .....

I would never presume or judge anyone who is depressed or at that low point - until you have walked in someones shoes dont say a thing ....

I do hope this woman has now found some peace and my thoughts are with the family left and of course the lorry driver who was caught up in this horrible situation ....


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

You out of curiosity
does anyone know if OAP's are exempt from the bedroom tax?
Only I seem to recall that they are, maybe I am mistaken


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

DT said:


> You out of curiosity
> does anyone know if OAP's are exempt from the bedroom tax?
> Only I seem to recall that they are, maybe I am mistaken


Not as yet but they are worried it will soon

Pensioners and the Bedroom Tax | National Pensioners Convention

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...acks-on-pensioner-bedroom-tax/6525843.article


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

DT said:


> You out of curiosity
> does anyone know if OAP's are exempt from the bedroom tax?
> Only I seem to recall that they are, maybe I am mistaken


Only affects working age


----------



## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

DT said:


> You out of curiosity
> does anyone know if OAP's are exempt from the bedroom tax?
> Only I seem to recall that they are, maybe I am mistaken


I thought so DT - but that knowledge was gleaned from the first thread about it on here so I don't know about source.


----------



## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

the jumping from the bridge thing is really bad for all the people involved.it happened here near us in cumbernauld not that long ago.one of the flyovers onto the motorway.and my girlfriends car was stuck in full view of the body.she had her three girls(age 11 13 15) in the car,they all saw.it was a nightmare the police were a disaster the car was stuck for 3 hours cos all the cars had to be turned on the motor way and sent back the wrong wayto the last exit.the police didnt cover the body for ages :O(...the poor driver of the car had a oxygen mask on cos they thought he was having a heart attack....the whole thing was NOT GOOD.but people dont realise what they are doing when they jump.they obviously cant think it through....then the poor family have to sort everything out.


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

DT said:


> You out of curiosity
> does anyone know if OAP's are exempt from the bedroom tax?
> Only I seem to recall that they are, maybe I am mistaken


Bedroom tax will not affect you if there is no Housing Benefit claim for your household.
Bedroom tax will not affect all Housing Benefit claimants. The Government states that if you or your partner were born before 5 October 1951 (the qualifying age for pension credit in April 2013) you will not be affected.
You will not be affected if you have shared ownership, or if you are a resident of 1-bedroom property.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

In Gibraltar there were new houses built in prime location for pensioners only...close to all amenities..and people just love it!!!
No noisy kids..lifts and ramps..flowers..shops close by...people are fighting to go there...
This is the way forward..
Semi-residential care where people have independent flats..but are looked after..


----------



## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

cloversmum said:


> The problem is with downsizing is that there isn't enough smaller accommodation for people to move to.


or is it more the case of...the area isn't suitable. Here in Plymouth a lot of the old style council properties have been bulldozed and in their place fresh modern accomodation has popped up. I have to say I wouldn't have a problem with living in one but its the undesirables who spoil it...stamp down on those and then there would be more housing options IMO.

I'd have no problem living in this ...I dont get attached to bricks


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

fierceabby said:


> I thought so DT - but that knowledge was gleaned from the first thread about it on here so I don't know about source.


Source: Under occupation and your age



> Currently, if you or your partner is an older person who is no longer classed as being of working age you will be exempt from the under occupation charge (also known as the bedroom tax) that comes in from April 2013. This means that you will not have your Housing Benefit reduced if you are under occupying your home and have more bedrooms than you need.
> 
> In April 2013 you will no longer be of 'working age if you or your partner were born before 05 October 1951 and you will be exempt from the under occupation charge and therefore not have your benefit reduced.
> 
> If you were born after that date you can use the table below to see on what date you will become exempt. From that time you will no longer have to pay the under occupation charge. This information might be useful when you are deciding whether or not to move to a smaller house, or how long you can afford to make up the difference between your Housing Benefit and your rent


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

what is sad is like others have said the driver and the fact that the spotlight is focusing on this 'controversial' tax, and not the state the victim was at the time. Personally I would be focusing on how her instability was missed, personally she was let down by the fact her MH was not treated/seen/noticed x

I wonder how many other deaths that were MH related happened on the same day? well we all know if there is no tangible news worthy story then they are not worth writing about x


----------



## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

cloversmum said:


> Ok since I've tried to kill myself you will call me selfish.
> 
> Depression is an illness.. *I'm not talking about the Monday morning blues, but the dark, endless depression. It's so awful you just want an escape.*
> 
> Suicide is not selfish.. it's a response to unbearable pain





cloversmum said:


> I never said you haven't been through it


Fair enough, but I felt you were implying by the above statement in bold that I hadn't.


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

MissShelley said:


> Fair enough, but I felt you were implying by the above statement in bold that I hadn't.


my apologies. I was explaining my own depression


----------



## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> what is sad is like others have said the driver and the fact that the spotlight is focusing on this 'controversial' tax, and not the state the victim was at the time. Personally I would be focusing on how her instability was missed, personally she was let down by the fact her MH was not treated/seen/noticed x
> 
> I wonder how many other deaths that were MH related happened on the same day? well we all know if there is no tangible news worthy story then they are not worth writing about x


yep its the driver I feel for, it was selfish to ruin someone elses life to take her own, it was premeditated so she knew she would affect someone but didnt care. Im sure we have all been affected in some way or other to agree theres more to suicide then one occurrence, its a shame she didnt reach out, or ask for money from her family, the fact she didnt tells me she wanted to die anyway.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> Only affects working age


If on HB....


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> If on HB....


It only affects anyone on HB anyway.... if you pay your rent and in a council house/flat, your exempt


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

This is a great policy thought up by dimwits

a "welfare" 2 bedroom bungalow here is £97 rent x 48 wks and £1015/yr CT

if faced with finding £15 extra due to having a spare bedroome and the tenant moves to a one bed private let at £700/month and £1200/yr CT the council will be paying out MORE!

£5671 vs £9600

so every HA/Council tenant affected (600,000) should do just that

*600,000 x £4000 = an INCREASE in HB of £240 MILLION pounds per year*


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

How very sad for all involved.



haeveymolly said:


> looking at things realistically doesnt it make sense to have a single person or couple in a 2 bed property and a family of 4 in a 3 bed property, I think people have been used to having it all or lucky to have been having it all even spoilt if you like and now things are been looked at more realistically which a good shake up in a lot of areas can only do good in the long run people are now kicking back, making things seem unfair when actually it is fair, unfair a family should be living in overcrowded conditions while a single person rattles about in a 2 bed house is just madness and a waste of money to me.


The unfairness is many people are feeling hounded and unable to downsize whether they want to or not. My sisters tenancy stipulates because the house was specially adapted for her handicapped daughter she has to stay for 10 years, HB cuts still affect her and it will cost the local authority more to rehouse her because it will need to be adapted again so its easier just to leave her to it.

£20 a week might not sound that much, its not the sole cut though as council tax benefit has been cut as well for my sister thats roughly another £15 a week. She lives on carers allowance + a bit of some other benefit, she gets about £70 a week in total so thats half her income gone.



Pointermum said:


> I think lot of people are forgetting most councils offer a exchange system, i know a LOT of people with two children who are trying to upgrade to 3 bed places. It's not they just have to accept what they are offered they can look for themselves and do a mutual swap :smilewinkgrin:


She has looked, no takers for a five bedroomed house with handicapped facilities.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

HomeSwapper, council house exchange, Homeswap, house exchange - Home Page


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Discretionary housing payments (DHP) may be claimed if you get housing benefit or council tax benefit, but are having difficulty paying the rest of your rent yourself.

You may be able to get them if your housing benefit has been cut because of the 'bedroom tax'. Find out more about these top-up payments and how to claim.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

BTW, the lady had THIRTY tins of custard in her pantry, but no food...

something other than the HB reduction was going on here


----------



## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> BTW, the lady had THIRTY tins of custard in her pantry, but no food...
> 
> something other than the HB reduction was going on here


yep, they found the elephant she had been hiding!

Sorry, no disrespect meant


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> BTW, the lady had THIRTY tins of custard in her pantry, but no food...
> 
> something other than the HB reduction was going on here


Perhaps she liked bathing in the stuff


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

it is very sad indeed if anyone exploits that sad death for political purposes or just to boost the paper circulation...


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

DT said:


> Perhaps she liked bathing in the stuff


possibly

unto each their own i say


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Perhaps the custard was something to do with her mental health issues, I know I have, by comparison, quite mild symptoms but one of them is the accumulation of non perishable food items in the event of some catastrophe.

I'm lucky as I can control it with both self management & meds, & 'The Nukes' is something thats a bit of a standing joke amongst friends & family, but it's a deep seated childhood fear that's exacerbated by my depression.

I find myself getting quite anxious if my husband depletes my modest supply of condensed milk (4 or 5 tins at any given time) & feel compelled to replace them. Replacing them gives me an odd but satisfying feeling that all will be well  ut:


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> BTW, the lady had THIRTY tins of custard in her pantry, but no food...
> 
> something other than the HB reduction was going on here


Noooooo! you dont say!!!!

I think that was probably established on page 2!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> BTW, the lady had THIRTY tins of custard in her pantry, but no food...
> 
> something other than the HB reduction was going on here


I hope you are aware of the implications this post could potentially create!

A worldwide custard shortage!


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> Noooooo! you dont say!!!!
> 
> I think that was probably established on page 2!


but half are still blaming the HB reduction.....


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> but half are still blaming the HB reduction.....


No they are not ....many are saying that maybe the HB was what tipped her over the edge .....just another problem added that she couldnt cope with ...it only takes one small thing amongst a lot of other stuff to push someone over the edge .........


----------



## Typewriter (May 12, 2013)

Most of these Council tenants have worked all their lives, provided for their families and never claimed benefits. Now that they have retired and get a state pension as many years ago there was no private pensions to pay into should be aloud to live out there time in the home they want to remain in. I lived in a high rise flat for many years before being offered a 2 bedroom house and then moving again and buying my council house. But we have worked paid our taxes and lucky not to be out of work, we still have a few years before we retire, if we aren't dead before we retire.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Typewriter said:


> Most of these Council tenants have worked all their lives, provided for their families and never claimed benefits. Now that they have retired and get a state pension as many years ago there was no private pensions to pay into should be aloud to live out there time in the home they want to remain in. I lived in a high rise flat for many years before being offered a 2 bedroom house and then moving again and buying my council house. But we have worked paid our taxes and lucky not to be out of work, we still have a few years before we retire, if we aren't dead before we retire.


Ii does not apply to OAP's so it seems


----------



## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

DT said:


> Ii does not apply to OAP's so it seems


And yet, there are OAP's who want to move to smaller accomodation because they find a bigger house too much to cope with now and can't because of the lack of decent 1 or 2 bed homes.

The whole system is nuts!!! There needs to be a good mix of both to ensure that peoples requirements are met. Then there would be no need for a stupid 'tax' that most people can ill afford!


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> The problem is with downsizing is that there isn't enough smaller accommodation for people to move to.


I agree.. The fine points on how to make it work needs to be sorted out and this is what people should be concentrating on. It's not.

I think everyone could get around the idea of things like no smaller houses, don't penalize people. If this was the message from those campaigning against the policy more people would agree and support the push for change. As it is, it's generally, once again, a them and us situation. Those who work see how they need to struggle while those on benefit seem to have more than they do. A lot of the time for and against equates to workers vs those on benefits only adding to the resentment on both sides.

I very much doubt those on this thread for the policy are rolling in money.


----------



## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> You see, the thing is MB that this is quite a new idea. 40-50 years ago when people rented a council house, provided they paid their rent and did not cause nuisance to their neighbours, the house WAS theirs for life - and if there were adult children left living in the house after the person on the rent-book died, it automatically transferred over to them.


The thing is SW - 40 & 50 yrs ago we were still patting ourselves on the back at having held back a European invasion. I wish we could say the same today!!!

There was available housing then and passing on the rent book was not so much of an issue. Back then, children stayed at home until they married. If they didn't marry, they didn't move out. So it made sense for the rent book to pass on.

These days it has all changed. The last 30 years has seen a huge shift in how people live. More young adults move out of the family home to get their own place. The last 15 yrs has seen a huge swell in numbers of non-idigenous occupants in the UK. Both of these make the housing market a dog-eat-dog place.

The UK is a small island, we are limited in just how much more housing we can fit in. You'd be amongst the first to complain if all our parkland & countryside was turned into a massive housing estate. Where once, private rents were not unreasonable and the country could afford to pay those to house people, the current state of demand outstripping supply means that landlords can charge silly money for gross little hovels and get away with it.

It, therefore, makes perfect sense that one person in a three bed house which is being paid for in benefits, should move to a smaller property which will not cost the tax-payer so much. It then also frees up larger properties for young families.

I am still struggling to see why people cannot accept this very simple concept.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Also missing the point that people could survive 40-50yrs ago with one person working with another looking after the kids. How many people can live like that now? What does that do to society in the long term? I remember that "latchdoor kids" were a rarity when I was growing up.

Jobs were also often for life. Unless in something like teaching or the NHS, this is no longer the case for a lot of people.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Benefit system cannot create situation when those who work and pay themselves (and pay for those benefits) live in worse conditions than those supported by state...
logic???
system offering lots of such benefits naturally attracts all those whose countries do not offer that..
logic!!!
ut:


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I do see what some are saying those that can downsize who dont have a problem with it should ...BUT what is also being overlooked and I see it where I live is that many many SINGLE people are being given 2/3 bedroom houses or flats to start with from the council ....as I mentioned earlier the allocation system is flawed itself - that needs looking at and changing ...but just like with the benefits its easier to punish everyone and roll out a new way to claw back what they have given away than to actually look at the system and re hash it!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Also missing the point that people could survive 40-50yrs ago with one person working with another looking after the kids. How many people can live like that now? What does that do to society in the long term? I remember that "latchdoor kids" were a rarity when I was growing up.
> 
> Jobs were also often for life. Unless in something like teaching or the NHS, this is no longer the case for a lot of people.


There was almost someone at home when I got in from school
If there wasn't the door key was hung on a piece of string hanging from the letterbox
YES times have changed and not always for the better!

I never ever thought I would be one to look back at them 'good old days' that my parents always spoke of!


----------



## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> So just to get this straight, someone who commits suicide is in deep depression etc BUT someone who does something else THEN commits suicide is a completely different kettle of fish.
> 
> I have not dragged murderers and child killers into this, read the news, there are PLENTY of parents who kill their families and THEN commit suicide. I am curious as to why you differentiate between them.
> 
> ...


''I am sure you have the same sympathy for others not in their right minds who do things like:

kill perfect strangers
set fire to their children, or hang them.''

You did drag murderers into it and at first you were NOT talking about people who kill their children then themselves, you mentioned that nowhere in your original post... And where did I say anything about one type of mental illness deserving sympathy over the other? I was just pointing out that being suicidal and being a murderer are different things.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> All those years ago, it was not just council houses that people expected to rent for life. They had different laws for tenants then, and people could actually rent a private house and expect to stay there forever.
> 
> My in-laws rented a bungalow just before the war and were there for fifty years, at least she was, and because of the rules when they first rented it, they were still paying the same paltry rent and the landlord was paying the rates. They used to tell everyone they owned it, and the landlord offered them money to move many times. He even offered to sell it to them for a quarter of what it was worth but they wouldn't have it. They believed it was more secure for them than getting into debt with a mortgage.
> 
> ...


but we can all "expect" allsorts that doesnt mean to say it will always work out the way we expect it, people who buy their own houses expect to be there until they decide otherwise then they lose their jobs, interest rates go up and they have to leave the home they expected to always have, have to leave family and friends nearby and uproot, but its life ime afraid.


----------



## davidc (Dec 15, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> I do see what some are saying those that can downsize who dont have a problem with it should ...BUT what is also being overlooked and I see it where I live is that many many SINGLE people are being given 2/3 bedroom houses or flats to start with from the council ....as I mentioned earlier the allocation system is flawed itself - that needs looking at and changing ...but just like with the benefits its easier to punish everyone and roll out a new way to claw back what they have given away than to actually look at the system and re hash it!


I've known a lot of single people who wanted one bedroom council properties offered only 2 bedroomed ones and told if they don't accept them they will go down the waiting list. In fact the council knocked down loads of one bedroom properties (nothing wrong with them, not old, no leaks, no faults, nothing) and relocated my mum and others (a lot of them elderly a few years ago) to newly built cheaper 2 bedroom flats. They also knocked down newly refurbished council houses suitable for families about ten years ago I think it was. This council is still knocking down properties to this day.

So in many cases people who have no need or want for a 2 bedroom property are forced to take them.


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

davidc said:


> I've known a lot of single people who wanted one bedroom council properties offered only 2 bedroomed ones and told if they don't accept them they will go down the waiting list. In fact the council knocked down loads of one bedroom properties (nothing wrong with them, not old, no leaks, no faults, nothing) and relocated my mum and others (a lot of them elderly a few years ago) to newly built cheaper 2 bedroom flats. They also knocked down newly refurbished council houses suitable for families about ten years ago I think it was. This council is still knocking down properties to this day.
> 
> So in many cases people who have no need or want for a 2 bedroom property are forced to take them.


Yes that is true ! which is my point - the councils have blundered in many cases by not allocating properly.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I haven't read all the posts, I feel so sorry for this lady and I don't THINK she'll be the last, I hold this tory government completed to blame for the death of this poor woman.

A woman up the road lives in a 3 bedroomed house, she lived there with her Mother who has now died and her son who has now left home. She now has to find £30 more a week, she has asked to move and they haven't got anywhere to move her to, so she's stuck there at the moment her main worry is feeding her cats, she trying to find new homes for them as she can't afford to feed them. 

Well done David, LIFE IS SO MUCH BETTER WITH YOUR LOT IN CHARGE :cursing: :mad5: :cursing: :mad5:


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> I haven't read all the posts, I feel so sorry for this lady and I don't THINK she'll be the last, I hold this tory government completed to blame for the death of this poor woman.
> 
> A woman up the road lives in a 3 bedroomed house, she lived there with her Mother who has now died and her son who has now left home. She now has to find £30 more a week, she has asked to move and they haven't got anywhere to move her to, so she's stuck there at the moment her main worry is feeding her cats, she trying to find new homes for them as she can't afford to feed them.
> 
> Well done David, LIFE IS SO MUCH BETTER WITH YOUR LOT IN CHARGE :cursing: :mad5: :cursing: :mad5:


Oh dear....and Labour were doing such a magnificent job 

Anyone who commits suicide (and involving a perfectly innocent man trying to earn a crust) over 20 pound per week must have other issues going on. If lack of funds were to be a reasonable excuse to jump under the wheels of a lorry...the roads would be littered with battered bodies.

I really feel for this lady but lets not pretend its all about bedroom tax


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I read that she was offered a bungalow but turned it down. 

I love all the moaning about bedroom tax. What about the generation of young people who have almost zero chance of getting onto the property ladder? wait, scratch that, even earning enough to RENT somewhere. The woman who died was paying £320 a month to rent a three bedroom house. You couldn't even rent a bedsit for that here.


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

labradrk said:


> I read that she was offered a bungalow but turned it down.
> 
> I love all the moaning about bedroom tax. What about the generation of young people who have almost zero chance of getting onto the property ladder? wait, scratch that, even earning enough to RENT somewhere. The woman who died was paying £320 a month to rent a three bedroom house. You couldn't even rent a bedsit for that here.


Precisely...when my kids have all gone to start their new lives...we will be happy to downsize because that means less or no mortgage to pay...so can grow old doing the things we enjoy...having had a mortgage tied round our necks for the last 20 odd years. That ladys rent isnt a third of what we pay in mortgage repayments and thats before Council Tax...Buildings Insurance and Life Insurance (necessary for mortgage).


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

labradrk said:


> The woman who died was paying £320 a month to rent a three bedroom house. You couldn't even rent a bedsit for that here.


My council tax costs almost that


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

labradrk said:


> The woman who died was paying £320 a month to rent a three bedroom house. You couldn't even rent a bedsit for that here.


I think you mean the rent was £320 a month....the HB was covering it (and the CT) but then she was faced with finding £20/wk ....


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> I think you mean the rent was £320 a month....the HB was covering it (and the CT) but then she was faced with finding £20/wk ....


....which wouldn't have been an issue if she had accepted the accommodation offered to her.

Living in a council house for x number of years doesn't mean she should be exempt from downsizing like private homeowners who have to do just that when finances become too tight.

The sense of entitlement that some have is staggering.


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

You were lucky.There were a hundred and sixty of us living in a small shoebox in the middle of the road.


----------



## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

labradrk said:


> I read that she was offered a bungalow but turned it down.
> 
> I love all the moaning about bedroom tax. What about the generation of young people who have almost zero chance of getting onto the property ladder? wait, scratch that, even earning enough to RENT somewhere. The woman who died was paying £320 a month to rent a three bedroom house. You couldn't even rent a bedsit for that here.


your kidding! im in a council 1 bed flat, i pay the rent, and its £400 a month. im paying £80 a month more than her for 2 rooms less than her. what a joke!


----------



## skip (Sep 25, 2011)

An extremely sad story,devastating for her family and all involved.

The difference between renting a two bedroom and three bedroom council house is not anywhere near £80 a month in our area, it is less than £10 a month which is why i dont understand the bedroom tax being set at such high rates.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *hm i liked your post because you said, " surely the had to be other problems". I know for a FACT, people that have the least are being told they have to pay more and more. It has got to the stage where they are paying just their bills, and are left with nothing to live on.
> It really p*sses me of, that these stories are not on our mian news channels.*


I hate to say this, because it IS a very tragic story - but there are a LOT of damned hard working people in very similar positions or worse.

I've been there and it is heart-breaking being the only person in the street unable to carpet their house, have a telephone and Sky when you are the only one working.



Firedog said:


> I should have thought of that really,our area doesn't have a lot of one bed flats.I suppose people that have been in houses don't really want too move to a flat if it isn't on the ground floor.


It depends on their fitness levels - our house has two storeys - but because of my back problems, I only use one - ironically, the downstairs bathroom I hated when we bought it has transpired to be my lifesaver.

My paternal grandmother was moved from a three bed house to an upstairs one bed flat and wasn't in the slightest bit phased by it - having said that a lot of 60/70/80 year olds simply won't be in a position to use stairs on a daily basis to access their homes, running a very real risk of becoming housebound if homed in such properties.

Having said that - they will unquestionably face similar problems if living in a "normal house" with an upstairs bathroom.

The old fashioned council houses would be strong enough to support aids such as a stair lift (assuming they could afford to get one fitted) - but the newer housing association properties with their timber frames and studded walls could quite easily start falling apart under such pressure.

========================

Please note - I am NOT in any way trivialising what's happened here, I fear it probably won't the last such tragic story of on-going government changes - many of which I agree have been handled in a ham-fisted way.

This government was placed in an almost impossible position when they took power - not unlike when Maggie was elected - trouble is - there's no "family silver" left to sell - the country is on its' uppers because of consecutive labour governments with their "spend, spend spend" policies.

I'm sure the "right to buy" policy didn't help matters - but the idea behind this was that private housing associations would take over the development of new housing which they did - and rapidly rescinded the "right to buy" for new tenants -

Unquestionably, the breakdown of the traditional family has contributed to the need for more housing, private and social - whilst elderly residents living in larger houses is preventing young families in particular from getting homes

Our family has been hard hit by the government changes despite both of us working - and I totally agree their approach to money saving will unquestionably hit some of the poorest in our society - but I also think we need to very clear that it isn't just those out of work who are struggling - there are households with two (or more) working residents who are living to work rather than working to live, regularly having to make decisions on whether they eat or pay bills.

It isn't the governments fault they've had to make stringent hard hitting cuts -it is their fault in many of the ways they've approached doing this - it's their advisors that tell them what to do - they don't personally make these decisions, they enforce recommendations.

I would also say, don't for one minute think, that if labour returned to power that they will dramatically change any of these unpopular decisions, because it is highly unlikely they would.

It's also worth thinking about what might happen in 4/8/10 years if Labour do get re-elected for one or more terms - once again the country will face the repercussions of the spend, spend, spend policies despite the country not having the money to spend in the first place.

Saving the banks might have seemed like a good idea at the time - but it all came out of the same almost bankrupt public purse - whilst the bank senior management and staff continue to share bonuses (effectively from the public purse) that could well support a lot of families for 12 months or more.

Then there are other "silly schemes" such as the £10 Christmas bonus for DLA recipients what is all that about?  I'm not saying it isn't needed or justified - what I am saying is it probably costs the government the same (or more) to administer this one off annual payment to all recipients, plus pensioners and possibly other groups who may receive it - there has to be more cost effective ways of administering it.

Sometimes they don't look from the right angles - Quangos and similar bodies are established to save money when all they do is add another layer of bureaucracy that has to be paid for.

Restructuring public health services costs money - replacing DLA with PIP will, I suspect, unquestionably cost more money than it saves - I would love to see the "payback" period on whoever came up with the idea - it wouldn't surprise me if it runs into negative figures.

DLA could be revised for lifetime awards without changing the whole system - fraud can be investigated by existing government employees - re-channel some of the exuberant overspending on private contract providers - the value of which would give the general public heart failure - into dealing with fraud - it keeps people in work whilst simultaneously reducing the significant financial burdens on government from ill thought out licenses to print money and fraudulent claimants.

Sorry - rant over - will crawl back into my hole now


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

My god all this talk of having to move house because its not practical to have a 3 bed home and 1 person rattling about in it, when theres families living in cramp conditions................its very sad but i think so many people are victims of how this country has, given, given and given more for so long, years ago people would have just been happy/grateful to have a roof over their heads, something that resembled a comfortable home and even more grateful that it was also paid for, now ime not saying i want the hard times of years and years ago back, but i think it would do a lot of people a lot of good to meet somewhere in the middle, even if it was just for a little while so they could see just how hard it could be because these that have it all as in rent paid, spare rooms ect act like little kids when their refused sweets out of the sweet shop.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Blood On The Tories&#039; Hands

" She could not work because of the debilitating auto-immune system condition myasthenia gravis. She required constant medication."

" The council hadnt yet been able to find her a home, but she had already packed up her belongings into cardboard boxes in anticipation of the day the bailiffs came knocking.

She spent her last days on Earth living in confusion and anguish. She didnt eat."


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> Blood On The Tories' Hands
> 
> " She could not work because of the debilitating auto-immune system condition myasthenia gravis. She required constant medication."
> 
> ...


I thought all disabled people were exempt?

IF she was in that situation she could have point blank refused to pay then her situation would have been assessed.

I think she had more underlying issues than just this 'bedroom tax' which has it happens is not a tax just a benefit cut.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> Blood On The Tories' Hands


Typical political point scoring rather than trying to fix things. A reprint of an article written by the Morning Star. Isn't the Morning Star a left-wing British daily tabloid newspaper financially supported by trade unions and activists? Just from the title it's obvious that balanced viewpoints or even accurate information are not the priority. I suppose the "Welfare News Service" link looks better and less biased than Morning Star version


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> I thought all disabled people were exempt?
> 
> IF she was in that situation she could have point blank refused to pay then her situation would have been assessed.
> 
> I think she had more underlying issues than just this 'bedroom tax' which has it happens is not a tax just a benefit cut.


*The thing is, people on the lowest incomes are being hit the hardest. As from this year, they are expected to fine more and more money from the little they have.
I know for a fact, some have gone through this winter with no heating at all. Which i find sickening. This is GB 2013, but we still see adverts for 3rd world countries.*


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *The thing is, people on the lowest incomes are being hit the hardest. As from this year, they are expected to fine more and more money from the little they have.
> I know for a fact, some have gone through this winter with no heating at all. Which i find sickening. This is GB 2013, but we still see adverts for 3rd world countries.*


Yes they are, but they can refuse to pay the benefit cut if they are that broke and their case will be assessed.

As for the third world countries thats the curupt governments that rule them, nothing to do with our governments.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

harley bear said:


> Yes they are, but they can refuse to pay the benefit cut if they are that broke and their case will be assessed.
> 
> As for the third world countries thats the curupt governments that rule them, nothing to do with our governments.


*Fact is, when peoples benefits get changed, it changes EVERYTHING. ie. Their housing benefits ect. So they have to start from scratch. All this is costing the government even more money.*


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

it says she couldnt afford to buy food, so why have 30 tins of custard in the cupboards, doctors told her she was too ill to work but she never registered herself disabled why not then she would be getting more money the council didnt offer her anything suitable, they offered her a bungalow,ideal for a disabled woman living alone but it was too far from a bus stop. Ime sorry but i think she is in a better position than a lot of people, the chance of a bungalow and the chance to up the money coming in, why was £20 such an issue, i dont know what disability benefit is but i would bet its more than £80 a month.

Theres only one person here i feel for and thats the poor lorry driver, the more i hear and read the article the more ime convinced its been blamed on the bedroom tax when there were other issues here.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> it says she couldnt afford to buy food, so why have 30 tins of custard in the cupboards, doctors told her she was too ill to work but she never registered herself disabled why not then she would be getting more money the council didnt offer her anything suitable, they offered her a bungalow,ideal for a disabled woman living alone but it was too far from a bus stop. Ime sorry but i think she is in a better position than a lot of people, the chance of a bungalow and the chance to up the money coming in, why was £20 such an issue, i dont know what disability benefit is but i would bet its more than £80 a month.
> 
> Theres only one person here i feel for and thats the poor lorry driver, the more i hear and read the article the more ime convinced its been blamed on the bedroom tax when there were other issues here.


*But that depends on which story you read. The fact that she had 30 tins of custard in her cupboards only say one thing to me, and that is, this poor woman bought what was cheap.
If people have NEVER been this hard up, believe you me, they haven't got a clue what it's like.*


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

harley bear said:


> *I thought all disabled people were exempt*?
> 
> IF she was in that situation she could have point blank refused to pay then her situation would have been assessed.
> 
> I think she had more underlying issues than just this 'bedroom tax' which has it happens is not a tax just a benefit cut.


No they are not - despite David Cameron saying publicy (PM question time) that anyone with a disabled child or someone who requires around the clock care being Exempt it is not true. Apparently exempt means they are not required to share a bedroom


----------



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *But that depends on which story you read. The fact that she had 30 tins of custard in her cupboards only say one thing to me, and that is, this poor woman bought what was cheap.
> If people have NEVER been this hard up, believe you me, they haven't got a clue what it's like.*


With all due respect... If you were THAT skint, you wouldn't be wasting money on buying 30 tins of custard, no matter if it was on offer or not.


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *But that depends on which story you read. The fact that she had 30 tins of custard in her cupboards only say one thing to me, and that is, this poor woman bought what was cheap.
> If people have NEVER been this hard up, believe you me, they haven't got a clue what it's like.*


It says to be she wasn't 100% in the right mind, beans are always cheaper than custard and more of a meal. She obviously was well in her mind and pointed the blame at the government as a get out cause IMO.

In the other articles it says she was offered accommodation.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Megan345 said:


> With all due respect... If you were THAT skint, you wouldn't be wasting money on buying 30 tins of custard, no matter if it was on offer or not.




That's exactly what I would buy if it was on offer cheap enough. Milk is almost a superfood and has many nutrients


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> That's exactly what I would buy if it was on offer cheap enough. Milk is almost a superfood and has many nutrients


I would have brought baked beans they are even cheaper, and perhaps better you to
She may have had a dairy intolerance


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *But that depends on which story you read. The fact that she had 30 tins of custard in her cupboards only say one thing to me, and that is, this poor woman bought what was cheap.
> If people have NEVER been this hard up, believe you me, they haven't got a clue what it's like.*


The story i have read is the link you put up in your original post, a good wholesome soup would be as cheap as custard.


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Does it really matter what she ate/didn't ate


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

cloversmum said:


> Does it really matter what she ate/didn't ate


It doesnt matter one bit, but the media seems to think so, maybe its to make the government sound even worse, the fact she could only afford to buy custard.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> It doesnt matter one bit, but the media seems to think so, maybe its to make the government sound even worse, the fact she could only afford to buy custard.


TBH HM I am getting a little sick or hearing the government get blamed for everything! Fact is we are in the sh*t BUT we do have it better then many countries
And personally my views are that if someone wants to take their own life then they cannot pin the blame on any one single factor BUT a combination yes, as Janice has said the straw that broke the camels back, but that back must have already been badly fractured to snap over twenty quid!


----------



## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *The thing is, people on the lowest incomes are being hit the hardest. As from this year, they are expected to fine more and more money from the little they have.
> I know for a fact, some have gone through this winter with no heating at all. Which i find sickening. This is GB 2013, but we still see adverts for 3rd world countries.*


Me too - my mum was one of them.

She doesn't have a mortgage because she scrimped and scraped over the last 5 years (since my step-dad died) to pay it off (her mortgage, and his mortgage)

They had been together for over 20 years but as they never married she didnt get his pension either. In fact all she got left were his debts, which are now charged on the house.

If she sells the house half the money has to go to his two sons (who never bothered with him when he was alive, came sniffing round at the funeral, and she hasnt heard a word from them since).

Oh, and she works full time, and will find out in the next 2 weeks whether or not she will be made redundant. She turned 60 in February, but wont get her state pension for another 3 years.

She sure as hell wont get any help from the government.

When I look at people like my mum, who has worked all her life (fitting in with us when we were at school) who have to sit there in the winter with no heating, it actually really p!sses me off to listen to people in their rent free homes moaning that they may have to contribute a little bit to their lifestyle from the money they get handed by the goverment!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

MCWillow said:


> Me too - my mum was one of them.
> 
> She doesn't have a mortgage because she scrimped and scraped over the last 5 years (since my step-dad died) to pay it off (her mortgage, and his mortgage)
> 
> ...


And me and my partner and one of those too!
And agree with EVERYTHING you say!
And other half (ok) does receive his pension, BUT he is still working FT and paying tax on EVERYTHING he earns too
We don't get a cent from the government (apart from the fuel allowance, and I sure as hell aint giving that up)


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

cloversmum said:


> Does it really matter what she ate/didn't ate


Not if you believe that there is no direct link between diet and behaviour.

Of course many people believe this is so, hence the campaign against Bakers for example.

Custard is hardly "brain food" is it?


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

a woman is dead, all people are talking about is the fact she had a lot of custard in her house


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

MCWillow said:


> Me too - my mum was one of them.
> 
> She doesn't have a mortgage because she scrimped and scraped over the last 5 years (since my step-dad died) to pay it off (her mortgage, and his mortgage)
> 
> ...


I can imagine, it must grate a bit, as i said on another post i made i think people have it too good for too long and now they feel the rugs been pulled from under them they are moaning, trouble is many have never been in the real world....................like working and paying their own way.

Good luck to your mum with her job.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

cloversmum said:


> a woman is dead, all people are talking about is the fact she had a lot of custard in her house


Exactly we are actually quoting what was said in the article about her death, they obviously thought it was relevant and would make it sound so much more tragic


----------



## mollydog07 (May 26, 2012)

Tonight in glasgow a 55yr old has launched himself of the 3rd floor of a swanky shopping centre...buchananan galleries in glasgow... god rest his soul.


----------



## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Usually papers report things like this to suit their own agenda, I don't suppose any of them are worried about having to find an extra £10 per week to cover a bedroom tax, no matter what their politics are.

However, I'm sure there was much more going on with this poor woman than losing some of her benefits because of the bedroom tax. 

For someone to take their life they must be deeply depressed, nobody in their 'right' mind commits suicide. The cause for her depression was probably a number of things, ill health probably was a big factor, chronic pain is really debilitating. Maybe her children leaving home and her having to fend for herself another. The latter is probably why she wrote that note to her son, though I cannot see what was in her mind I know what would have been in mine with regards to my children, I would be wanting to save them as much pain and guilt as possible. Perhaps that is why she blamed the government to try and save her son feeling guilty - I don't know of course how could I, but this is how I would be personally viewing things if suicide was on my mind and I still had the mind to write and post letters. Maybe both of her children leaving home at the same time tipped her over the edge, she was ill, who was going to look after her if her illness worsened? All this stuff would have been going around in my head.

Maybe the fact that she had custard in her larder was because she hated custard and it had accumulated over the years. If I was going to commit suicide I certainly wouldnt be going and doing a weeks shopping.

Whatever, all this is just speculation of course and it doesnt alter the fact that this poor woman was so depressed she felt she had to end her life. Whatever the reason, I'm sorry for her pain and despair, she must have felt desperately lonely and unloved. May her soul find peace.


----------



## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

thanks to the last poster. Mollydog,...(sorry i do type slow)

respect dosent cost anything, so im sure we can all afford that whatever our finanical position

remember that when posting about people who have passed away


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

So sad for whatever reason  my mother hoards peas, gawd knows why and she still has an active mind. 

RIP


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

The problem is that when the gap (between rich and poor) gets so extreme, everyone looks to blame something other than the system itself (regardless of the colour of government).

The system does not work as the few have to finance to support themselves in an overabundent lifestyle and they have that _because_ the poor remain poor. Wages are kept low so profits margins are high... the money didn't disappear, the rich still have it and people like this woman are simply the victims. In desperate times, many people have no hope, regardless of how we view their situation, they reach the point of despair.

Various groups blame various other groups, but always avoiding the actual problem (the system and the people who run it). The extreme right blame trades unions, immigrants, ethnic minorities, religious groups etc but none of these are the cause of the problem, they are simply easy to blame. The middle of the road people (labour voters typically) will blame similar groups but usually in less flamboyant terms, yet their party simply wants to run the same corrupt system in a different way.

After the last Europe wide depression of the 20s, politics lurched to the right and blame was apportioned to whatever groups the right could target; ethnic minorities, gypsies, homosexuals, immigrants etc etc ... the same is happening now but people are more risk averse, choosing to support "nicer" right wing parties... but the message is the same... the fault is not the system, the fault is not that of those who control the wealth, they're actually quite nice and we should give them the little money we have left to help (I mean, of course, the financial institutions and the land owning bourgeoisie we prop up through taxes and the money saved from sackings tens of thousands of public servants) the fault is that of Europe, Europe is rubbish and its their fault that we messed our country up. "Its all those immigrants see... and, well I'm not racist or anything, but they come over here and steal our jobs and claim benefits and use our health care and well, I know I get to do that when I'm in their country but, well, they shouldn't be able to do it here" etc etc.

So we should get out of Europe and limit immigration and then everything will be alright...... because we'll be able to manufacture... oh hang on, we don't manufacture anything... no, wait, we'll be able to sell our financial services... oh hang on, the bundesbank and euro exchanges will do that, and even the Nasdaq is bidding on that work... ah yes, the good old US of A will buy our stuff as an independent trading nation... oh, no, they want a deal with us only if we're part of Europe.

So, my view, the system is the problem and the people who vie to run it, whoever they are, will run it badly as they always have.... so we must change the system.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

my professor at uni would not go anywhere without bread ,cans of meat and termos full of cognac...he spent six or seven years in communist prison...


----------



## tinktinktinkerbell (Nov 15, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> Bedroom Tax victim commits suicide: Grandmother Stephanie Bottrill blames government in tragic note - Mirror Online
> 
> "Grandmother who had to pay extra £20 a week throws herself in front of motorway lorry."
> 
> ...


It will stop when the Tory scum get kicked out at the next general election


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> It will stop when the Tory scum get kicked out at the next general election


Doubt that, successive governments rarely back track on any unpopular measures


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

tashi said:


> So sad for whatever reason  my mother hoards peas, gawd knows why and she still has an active mind.
> 
> RIP


When going through my mum's flat when she died, I found a whole kitchen drawer filled to the brim with bisodol tablets. Obviously she thought she had serious indigestion, and she died from a stomach blockage, but would not visit a doctor. I know it is not the same thing, but why hoard anything like that?


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> When going through my mum's flat when she died, I found a whole kitchen drawer filled to the brim with bisodol tablets. Obviously she thought she had serious indigestion, and she died from a stomach blockage, but would not visit a doctor. I know it is not the same thing, but why hoard anything like that?


my nan is very much alive but is intstitutionalised, when we cleared out her annex we had 3 washing machines, 4 sofas, 4 kettles, boxes and boxes of light bulbs, clothes, as in we have 30 bin bags stored in the loft, mobile phones, televisions x as she is bipolar and dementic she would on a high spend her money, forget what she had bought go on a low, then repeat the pattern when high again x it is a classic symptom x

as I have said anything would have tipped her over the edge if that is where her mind was, it just happened to be this tax, tbf it could have been anything x

as for the evil Tory scum - what does everyone expect the welfare state is imploding as its supporting far to many that dont need it, for example my daughter is Type 1 diabetic, she receives £200 mth mid rate disability benefit - why? she is able to work (she does) she does not have a physical impediment, does not need support in the respect of care, all she needs is insulin to survive - she is 16!! been diabetic since 6, 10 years on this!, yes she should have free prescriptions and eye care/dental but thats it x oh!! and we refused to claim it to start with until a social care worker told us (cant repeat what was said) that we HAD to (in a nutshell!!) x


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> It will stop when the Tory scum get kicked out at the next general election


*except Labour wont repeal the HB reductions rules, and will then benefit by the "Tory scum" decisions....

remember you read it here first 
*


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> as for the evil Tory scum - what does everyone expect the welfare state is imploding as its supporting far to many that dont need it, for example my daughter is Type 1 diabetic, she receives £200 mth mid rate disability benefit - why? she is able to work (she does) she does not have a physical impediment, does not need support in the respect of care, all she needs is insulin to survive - she is 16!! been diabetic since 6, 10 years on this!, yes she should have free prescriptions and eye care/dental but thats it x oh!! and we refused to claim it to start with until a social care worker told us (cant repeat what was said) that we HAD to (in a nutshell!!) x


What would type 2 and a blocked artery get me?...

I read somewhere that both depression and dyslexia could qualify for a Mobility car...


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> It will stop when the Tory scum get kicked out at the next general election


Guess you are not prejudiced in the least


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Guess you are not prejudiced in the least


She hasnt long to wait for the "Bedroom tax" to be done away with has she though


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> She hasnt long to wait for the "Bedroom tax" to be done away with has she though


A lot of people would prefer more safety nets were put in place rather than it be abolished. The principle is right or do you think those on benefit should be able to live better than those who work?

It's also a case of things like this don't go away if the government changes. Poll tax is a great example.


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> What would type 2 and a blocked artery get me?...
> 
> I read somewhere that both depression and dyslexia could qualify for a Mobility car...


no idea - sorry x


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> What would type 2 and a blocked artery get me?...
> 
> *I read somewhere that both depression and dyslexia could qualify for a Mobility car...*


Sounds like something one might read in the daily mail...


----------



## x PIXIE x (Feb 9, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> I know for a fact, some have gone through this winter with no heating at all. Which i find sickening. This is GB 2013, but we still see adverts for 3rd world countries.*


Yeah my nan and grandad who worked bloody hard all their life... Paid their taxes... Paid their mortgage... Paid their council tax... Still pay all their rates and still can't afford 3 meals a day or to heat their home. In sure they'd be a darn site better off if they didn't have all the repairs and upkeep on their home at the age of 87 and could have everything given to them. Yet down the road you have a 27 year old baby making machine with 5 kids by different dads who's just paid for her holiday to Disneyland Paris isn't that nice. She managed to book it on her Apple Mac... Isn't it lovely when you read on Facebook how easy she has it when the rest of us are struggling to make ends meet despite having a full time job with a healthy wage??!! I live in my parents 3 bed house with 3 other adults. The dining room has been converted into a room for me as I can't afford to rent my own place... Trust me everyone is finding it hard. I don't blame the Tories I blame the people who made life too easy for those who can't be bothered to help themselves!


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> What would type 2 and a blocked artery get me?...
> 
> I read somewhere that both depression and dyslexia could qualify for a Mobility car...


You have to be on the highest rate of mobility DLA to qualify to swap that benefit in for a car. Since depression and dyslexia do not render you immobile to that extent and you would be lucky getting anything out of this private lot, don't hold your breath.



reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> my nan is very much alive but is intstitutionalised, when we cleared out her annex we had 3 washing machines, 4 sofas, 4 kettles, boxes and boxes of light bulbs, clothes, as in we have 30 bin bags stored in the loft, mobile phones, televisions x as she is bipolar and dementic she would on a high spend her money, forget what she had bought go on a low, then repeat the pattern when high again x it is a classic symptom x
> 
> as I have said anything would have tipped her over the edge if that is where her mind was, it just happened to be this tax, tbf it could have been anything x
> 
> as for the evil Tory scum - what does everyone expect the welfare state is imploding as its supporting far to many that dont need it, for example my daughter is Type 1 diabetic, she receives £200 mth mid rate disability benefit - why? she is able to work (she does) she does not have a physical impediment, does not need support in the respect of care, all she needs is insulin to survive - she is 16!! been diabetic since 6, 10 years on this!, yes she should have free prescriptions and eye care/dental but thats it x oh!! and we refused to claim it to start with until a social care worker told us (cant repeat what was said) that we HAD to (in a nutshell!!) x


My son cannot get the middle rate of care, even though he cannot find his own way about strange places, cannot take a bus without training to know which one it is, cannot read at all so don't know what he is buying, cannot use a cash machine, or a ticket machine, the list goes on..............................But someone who just needs to give herself injections every day which she is quite capable of doing, does get it. I am not getting at your daughter. A friend of mine who fosters told me that one of her foster kids gets the same for diabetes, she is 17 and can do it all herself.

That is definitely not right.


----------



## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> When going through my mum's flat when she died, I found a whole kitchen drawer filled to the brim with bisodol tablets. Obviously she thought she had serious indigestion, and she died from a stomach blockage, but would not visit a doctor. I know it is not the same thing, but why hoard anything like that?


It's hard to tell what goes on in another's mind -but I would presume in your mothers case as she had a stomach condition she was probably worried about running out of the Bisodol and stocked up just in case. It appears very logical to me.

When my mother died and we cleared her house, she had six pairs of, unopened towels, bedding still in its packets and a huge pile of various medicines for several medical conditions she had. She was old and old age, mental instability and forgetfulness can manifest itself by hoarding.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

x PIXIE x said:


> Yeah my nan and grandad who worked bloody hard all their life... Paid their taxes... Paid their mortgage... Paid their council tax... Still pay all their rates and still can't afford 3 meals a day or to heat their home. In sure they'd be a darn site better off if they didn't have all the repairs and upkeep on their home at the age of 87 and could have everything given to them. Yet down the road you have a 27 year old baby making machine with 5 kids by different dads who's just paid for her holiday to Disneyland Paris isn't that nice. She managed to book it on her Apple Mac... Isn't it lovely when you read on Facebook how easy she has it when the rest of us are struggling to make ends meet despite having a full time job with a healthy wage??!! I live in my parents 3 bed house with 3 other adults. The dining room has been converted into a room for me as I can't afford to rent my own place... Trust me everyone is finding it hard. I don't blame the Tories I blame the people who made life too easy for those who can't be bothered to help themselves!


*I do blame the tories, because since they have been in, they have been hell bent on hitting the most vulnerable.*


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> You have to be on the highest rate of mobility DLA to qualify to swap that benefit in for a car. Since depression and dyslexia do not render you immobile to that extent and you would be lucky getting anything out of this private lot, don't hold your breath.
> 
> My son cannot get the middle rate of care, even though he cannot find his own way about strange places, cannot take a bus without training to know which one it is, cannot read at all so don't know what he is buying, cannot use a cash machine, or a ticket machine, the list goes on..............................But someone who just needs to give herself injections every day which she is quite capable of doing, does get it. I am not getting at your daughter. A friend of mine who fosters told me that one of her foster kids gets the same for diabetes, she is 17 and can do it all herself.
> 
> That is definitely not right.


wholly agree with you 100% she should not get it x and someone who needs support should x which angers me too x


----------



## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I do blame the tories, because since they have been in, they have been hell bent on hitting the most vulnerable.*


I don't think they are deliberately targetting the most vulnerable intentionally. It's just that the cut backs they feel they have had to introduce hit the most vulnerable the hardest. I agree they could probably have thought things through much more carefully and considered the most vulnerable first though.

It seems to me whichever party that gets in power appears to have mental blocks about certain things, they cant see the wood for the trees so-to-speak and make some god awful mistakes and some really stupid decisions, the upshot being people get hurt in the process.


----------



## I love springers (Dec 3, 2010)

The only people who are benefiting from anything at the moment are people coming in from other EU countries...We have some next door..They don't have to worry about bedroom tax as there are that many living in one house its overcrowded...A lot of them don't pay council tax...They drive around in newer cars than me and my husband.. spend hours at a time stood outside the house on their mobile phones...Have all got designer gear ...None of them go to work well legally anyway and it's a joke..If the government had been tougher with immigration they wouldn't need to apply a bedroom tax and British people would be better off....I am sorry for going slightly of topic but me and OH work our socks off for them to swan around having a life of Reilly....It just gets me mad


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I love springers said:


> The only people who are benefiting from anything at the moment are people coming in from other EU countries...We have some next door..They don't have to worry about bedroom tax as there are that many living in one house its overcrowded...A lot of them don't pay council tax...They drive around in newer cars than me and my husband.. spend hours at a time stood outside the house on their mobile phones...Have all got designer gear ...None of them go to work well legally anyway and it's a joke..If the government had been tougher with immigration they wouldn't need to apply a bedroom tax and British people would be better off....I am sorry for going slightly of topic but me and OH work our socks off for them to swan around having a life of Reilly....It just gets me mad


Your gonna get called a racist now...(not by me BTW)


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

To get UK benefits should require the claimant be a UK resident with citizenship, a UK passport and English as their first language....

Australia lets no-one in without a visa, a work visa requires a skill and a job offer, anyone else gets put back on the plane


----------



## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

That poor ladys son,has been on the "thios morning " programme, he said they offered her some money to move,but then found faults with the house that they wanted to charge her for, typical, give with one hand take back with the other


----------



## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Foreigners can come in their thousands for all I care - but they should have a bonafide job to come to, and be self sufficient ie not able to claim benefits or services until they have paid into the system for at least say 7 years! 

We are paying out so much in benefits to those not entitled, and sadly hitting the pockets of those that are! Its just a joke!


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

the problem is EU members come legally...non-EU do not..
as to housing : In Gibraltar one needs to be a resident for 25 years to apply for council flat..still that law is often broken..by whom though?
not the claimants!!!


whoever may claim whatever but is up to Britain to say how long you need to live and work in UK to be able to ask for council housing or housing benefits???

many immigrants come , because in their own countries they would be on waiting lists for many, many years...

Prepare good laws, that reflect the current situation..and then stick to them!

Immigrants do not make laws in any country!!!


----------



## I love springers (Dec 3, 2010)

cheekyscrip said:


> the problem is EU members come legally...non-EU do not..
> as to housing : In Gibraltar one needs to be a resident for 25 years to apply for council flat..still that law is often broken..by whom though?
> not the claimants!!!
> 
> ...


Immigrants don't make laws.... but they say they come here for a better life but are turning the country into a ****hole when in fact most of them just come for the benefits...I have only had EU people renting next door since Christmas and due to all the stress they have caused me playing music till 4 in the morning when I am up for work at 6...slamming doors all hours of the night.. screaming...cars full of men turning up all the time and making me feel intimidated...I have had 2 stress induced Angina attacks....I have no time for people like that when they make no effort what so ever and have no consideration for other people...when my hard earn taxes are paying towards them

I am all for people having a better life but they need to make an effort....They should pay something in to get something out..


----------



## I love springers (Dec 3, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> Your gonna get called a racist now...(not by me BTW)


People can say what they like..when they have neighbours from hell and are scared to be in their own home like I am they may understand where I am coming from....


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I think its unfair to say all immigrants come here to claim benefits ....all who live near me all work very hard - in fact most of them have up to 3 jobs and work all hours of the day and night....the majority of benefit layabouts around me are British.....

YES there needs to be a cap on immigration at the moment I fully agree with that BUT the problems we are seeing are not down to just immigration! 

Its the system that has allowed many to come and take advantage - that is what needs changing - and until the government do that we wont see anything change - all we will see is cases like this where the vulnerable are targeted and then people blaming the immigrants .....blaming each other - hating each other and resentment and anger ....vicious circle .....


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Your gonna get called a racist now...(not by me BTW)


Only you would say something like that....I dont think the lady is racist for saying that ...she is talking about people who live next door not everyone


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

I love springers said:


> The only people who are benefiting from anything at the moment are people coming in from other EU countries...We have some next door..They don't have to worry about bedroom tax as there are that many living in one house its overcrowded...A lot of them don't pay council tax...They drive around in newer cars than me and my husband.. spend hours at a time stood outside the house on their mobile phones...Have all got designer gear ...None of them go to work well legally anyway and it's a joke..If the government had been tougher with immigration they wouldn't need to apply a bedroom tax and British people would be better off....I am sorry for going slightly of topic but me and OH work our socks off for them to swan around having a life of Reilly....It just gets me mad


*If you had watched the program " skint" the other night, most were acting just as you have described above. But they weren't immigrants.
So it's not just the immigrants who are benefiting.*


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *If you had watched the program " skint" the other night, most were acting just as you have described above. But they weren't immigrants.
> So it's not just the immigrants who are benefiting.*


I watched about 20 mins and then turned off - my god how embarrassing were they!!! - absolutely horrific


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I love springers said:


> Immigrants don't make laws.... but they say they come here for a better life but are turning the country into a ****hole when in fact most of them just come for the benefits...I have only had EU people renting next door since Christmas and due to all the stress they have caused me playing music till 4 in the morning when I am up for work at 6...slamming doors all hours of the night.. screaming...cars full of men turning up all the time and making feel feeling intimidated...I have had 2 stress induced Angina attacks....I have no time for people like that when they make no effort what so ever and have no consideration for other people...when my hard earn taxes are paying towards them
> 
> I am all for people having a better life but they need to make an effort....They should pay something in to get something out..


and I agree with you...just that countries which they come from cannot stop them...and if they have better chances for free house in UK?..it is obvious!!!

I know both sides of the equation - and unless it is clear that there are no freebies and I truly belive that native people (in any country!!!!)..should be first on the list..then if the laws attract benefit seekers..then they come???

Much better to change immigation laws than target those who come and hurt indiscriminately random victims?

Introduce visas and decide whom do you want and whom you do not?

and if it means going out of EU..consider what is better option...?


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> I think its unfair to say all immigrants come here to claim benefits ....all who live near me all work very hard - in fact most of them have up to 3 jobs and work all hours of the day and night....the majority of benefit layabouts around me are British.....
> 
> YES there needs to be a cap on immigration at the moment I fully agree with that BUT the problems we are seeing are not down to just immigration!
> 
> Its the system that has allowed many to come and take advantage - that is what needs changing - and until the government do that we wont see anything change - all we will see is cases like this where the vulnerable are targeted and then people blaming the immigrants .....blaming each other - hating each other and resentment and anger ....vicious circle .....


I have met an awful lot of immigrants through my job, all ladies stay at home mums, and nearly all them have husbands who are taxi drivers. Fair enough they work but why do they have housing association houses when the government at downsizing British people to make more houses? I think the reason is to save on housing benefit, nothing whatever to do with making more houses available. If not, they would also be looking at people paying their own rent for council houses, and people who don't use the house for much.

There is nothing racist about wanting our own people to be looked after first, but that is what has always stood in the way of common sense - the government being afraid of being called racist.


----------



## I love springers (Dec 3, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *If you had watched the program " skint" the other night, most were acting just as you have described above. But they weren't immigrants.
> So it's not just the immigrants who are benefiting.*[/QUOT
> 
> I didn't see the programme so maybe you could tell me who are benefiting other than immigrants
> ...


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

I love springers said:


> JANICE199 said:
> 
> 
> > *If you had watched the program " skint" the other night, most were acting just as you have described above. But they weren't immigrants.
> ...


----------



## I love springers (Dec 3, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> I love springers said:
> 
> 
> > *How about all those on the dole that have never worked and don't intend to?
> ...


----------



## x PIXIE x (Feb 9, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> I think its unfair to say all immigrants come here to claim benefits ....all who live near me all work very hard - in fact most of them have up to 3 jobs and work all hours of the day and night....the majority of benefit layabouts around me are British.....
> 
> YES there needs to be a cap on immigration at the moment I fully agree with that BUT the problems we are seeing are not down to just immigration!
> 
> Its the system that has allowed many to come and take advantage - that is what needs changing - and until the government do that we wont see anything change - all we will see is cases like this where the vulnerable are targeted and then people blaming the immigrants .....blaming each other - hating each other and resentment and anger ....vicious circle .....


I agree the biggest scroungers in my town are those who have grown up with parents on the scrounge. Many immigrants here work damn hard. I will admit though watching saints and scroungers yesterday that its those who come to this country just to chest the system that wind me up but they don't wind me up any more than joe blogs down the road doing the same thing.


----------



## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

I love springers said:


> I agree some people in this country are abusing the system....but they haven't passed through so many different countries to get here....and they don't *get provided with a car and all the other perks the eu get*....Maybe if they didn't get cars and the likes then there would be more money in the pot and the bedroom tax would never have needed be an issue.....I know the government is totally to blame for the mess in this country but each individual person has there own mind and behaves as they see fit..
> 
> I would only ever treat a person the way I would want to be treated myself...


No-one gets provided with a car on benefits....some claimants may choose to spend their disability allowance on a car, but EU migrants being provided with a car? Where did you get that idea?


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

myshkin said:


> I love springers said:
> 
> 
> > No-one gets provided with a car on benefits....some claimants may choose to spend their disability allowance on a car, but EU migrants being provided with a car? Where did you get that idea?
> ...


----------



## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> [
> 
> *That quote wasn't mine.*


That's weird.....how have I done that? 

ETA: flippin 'eck, what's going on? Now it's got me on the quote...

Sorted....don't know what I did there!


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> I have met an awful lot of immigrants through my job, all ladies stay at home mums, and nearly all them have husbands who are taxi drivers. Fair enough they work but why do they have housing association houses when the government at downsizing British people to make more houses? I think the reason is to save on housing benefit, nothing whatever to do with making more houses available. If not, they would also be looking at people paying their own rent for council houses, and people who don't use the house for much.
> 
> There is nothing racist about wanting our own people to be looked after first, but that is what has always stood in the way of common sense - the government being afraid of being called racist.


Yes but our own people as you put it do need to get their arses in gear too! at least there is one person working in the household - they are contributing in some way to our country - and thats my point the system is OPEN to abuse from ANYONE - thats the people who put the system in places fault not the people who abuse it - if people can get away with things then there will always be those that take the piss - whether you are black pink or bloody blue!!! colour has nothing to do with it - BUT there are many english people who sit there in their 3 bedroom house drinking 9% lager and smoking their bensons **** - who have never worked a day in their life have 5 kids and then moan about the polish family who live next door taking their jobs and their houses !!

As I have said a cap on immigration is needed at the moment - because they do need to sort this housing problem out BUT I think they need to look at the councils and how they allocate before punishing people


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

One thing which is very hard for immigrants to understand is why any country allows them in if it does not suit people of that country..and that country is a democracy where laws are made by representatives chosen by the native people?

I think British cannot understand that either

and why many who do not work have better lives than those who do and pay taxes????


----------



## click (Dec 23, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> and why many who do not work have better lives than those who do and pay taxes????


Then the taxes are too high. Earn £100 and buy baked beans,by the time they've had their cut they cost you £1 a tin.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

You know what gets my goat more than anything? You hear these sad stories like this and people who are fresh off the boat get carted round tesco by a key worker who tells them 'dont worry about the cost get exactly what you want!' :cursing: I had to bite my tongue earlier!


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> One thing which is very hard for immigrants to understand is why any country allows them in if it does not suit people of that country..and that country is a democracy where laws are made by representatives chosen by the native people?
> 
> I think British cannot understand that either
> 
> and why many who do not work have better lives than those who do and pay taxes????


Because the Government have put a system in place with too many loopholes that were supposed to be there for the needy but has ended up being a way of life - and the taxpayer/hardworkers dont get any reward at all - dont take a brain surgeon to see what the results would ultimately be!


----------



## click (Dec 23, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> dont take a brain surgeon to see what the results would ultimately be!


Which is why there are no brain surgeons as MPs.Just ex lawyers and the like that have no expertise of running a business let alone a country.

An old self made businessman millionaire friend of mine once told me. To be successful in running a business you need to allow 10% for theory and 90% for practice.When you get it the other way round you're in trouble.

MPs ideas and their legislations are all based on theory,look good on paper but no good in practice.(ie. the poll tax)


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

click said:


> Which is why there are no brain surgeons as MPs.Just ex lawyers and the like that have no expertise of running a business let alone a country.
> 
> An old self made businessman millionaire friend of mine once told me. To be successful in running a business you need to allow 10% for theory and 90% for practice.When you get it the other way round you're in trouble.
> 
> MPs ideas and their legislations are all based on theory,look good on paper but no good in practice.(ie. the poll tax)


Who is to change the law???? or the Mps???...


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

click said:


> Which is why there are no brain surgeons as MPs.Just ex lawyers and the like that have no expertise of running a business let alone a country.
> 
> An old self made businessman millionaire friend of mine once told me. To be successful in running a business you need to allow 10% for theory and 90% for practice.When you get it the other way round you're in trouble.
> 
> MPs ideas and their legislations are all based on theory,look good on paper but no good in practice.(ie. the poll tax)


100% Agree!!


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

so lets take this: housing benefits are paid by tax payers..who often cannot afford extra bedrooms..or even must share bedrooms?


So if government does not want to pay for extra bedrooms and says those who want them have to pay for them?...
Then that is bad too?
Then it is robbing the poor?
(though before you introduce the law make sure it is feasible..like there are smaller flats!)

There always be situations where any law may not fit..but be careful ..many laws are not that bad..just that there are far too many exceptions leaking ...


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I do blame the tories, because since they have been in, they have been hell bent on hitting the most vulnerable.*


who would you say are the most vulnerable?


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> who would you say are the most vulnerable?


*Those that have the least.*


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Those that have the least.*


So young couples that have young families, a mortgage, that work hard,dont have the luxuries that people on HB ect have, but are just on the borderline for any benefit help. They are the ones that if their mortgage went up £20 a week,now they would be in trouble.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

myshkin said:


> No-one gets provided with a car on benefits....some claimants may choose to spend their disability allowance on a car, but EU migrants being provided with a car? Where did you get that
> idea?


Well my son in law sold a car a few years ago it was purchased by an EU migrant, the buyer paid £50 deposit and I am 99% certain that the remainder was paid on a giro issued by the DHSS, I cannot check with 100% certainty as they are no longer together.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> So young couples that have young families, a mortgage, that work hard,dont have the luxuries that people on HB ect have, but are just on the borderline for any benefit help. They are the ones that if their mortgage went up £20 a week,now they would be in trouble.


And it happens every day, many that have been in a fixed term mortgage for two three or four years whatever and now those terms are ending the are finding their payments rising by a lot more then £20 a week!


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DT said:


> Well my son in law sold a car a few years ago it was purchased by an EU migrant, the buyer paid £50 deposit and I am 99% certain that the remainder was paid on a giro issued by the DHSS, I cannot check with 100% certainty as they are no longer together.


Yes i know someone whos son has a car lot and hes sold cars purchased by the DHSS, stinks dunt it.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DT said:


> And it happens every day, many that have been in a fixed term mortgage for two three or four years whatever and now those terms are ending the are finding their payments rising by a lot more then £20 a week!


yep and i wonder who will feel sorry for them and offer them a new home.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> yep and i wonder who will feel sorry for them and offer them a new home.


And wonder would the papers make a meal of it when and if they top themselves!


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Goblin said:


> The principle is right or do you think those on benefit should be able to live better than those who work?


But you do this by raising wages not cutting benefits.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I have some experience of some Polish migrants, they are nice folk, work hard, and do not cause trouble, I know some "locals" who dont know how to behave, i dont tar everyone with the same brush but some do themselvese no good at all, anyone causing trouble should be deported, 3 of my mates got drunk in Spain and got put on a plane to Gatwick with no luggage or documents and had to get 180 miles home with no money or transport, but guess what, next time they behaved!


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

jaycee05 said:


> That poor ladys son,has been on the "thios morning " programme, he said they offered her some money to move,but then found faults with the house that they wanted to charge her for, typical, give with one hand take back with the other


I assume you meant the woman was at fault for find faults?

The kid needs to be sectioned, end of


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

None of the people you're talking about are the problem... no one who comes here as a migrant is the problem, the few hundred or even thousands (or tens of thousands) pounds they are given pales in to insignificance when you look at the mega rich who move around hundreds of billions of pounds the same way the rest of us put 10p pieces in a jar.

All the time people keep pointlessly banging on about xenophobic crap, the people who are really the cause of the problems think its great... you ignore them.. you watch their wedding on TV or in Hello magazine and say "oh isn't that nice, they doing something for christian aid" all the time missing the point that the stock market folded, your pension collapsed, your job went abroad and your political parties suddenly represent no one, for the sole reason that those few people who control the wealth took it all home.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> But you do this by raising wages not cutting benefits.


Companies need to be competitive. Raise wages, inflation rockets (or companies close making people redundant) and everyone has less effective money.

If appropriate safety nets were in place you are not cutting benefits, simply making the best use of the housing available. Once again.. do you believe people on benefit have the right to have a higher standard of living than people working?


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Companies need to be competitive. Raise wages, inflation rockets (or companies close making people redundant) and everyone has less effective money.


Basic economics suggests this is not true. Inflation rises with excessive profit margins not with fair distribution. Companies can only compete in a market and the market is set up to benefit a few not many; therefore the fundamentals of the system are wrong, unless you are one of the few. Take a look at Mondragon and other collectives who keep wages high, full pension terms and great benefits for their workers whilst competing globally. The myth about fair wages creating inflation and redundancies is a myth perpetuated by those who run the markets (the people with the money) in order to maintain massive profit margins. Redistribution does not cause inflation; if it did then the quantitative easing would mean inflation in the UK would be in excess of 20%, but it isn't.

BTW... companies don't "need" to be anything as they don't "need" to be at all.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

MCWillow said:


> Me too - my mum was one of them.
> 
> She doesn't have a mortgage because she scrimped and scraped over the last 5 years (since my step-dad died) to pay it off (her mortgage, and his mortgage)
> 
> ...


My apologies, as this is going way O/T - but with the greatest respect, ALL that could have been sorted out by writing wills - being married does NOT give the surviving partner automatic rights to all their possessions unless a will is in place; I lost count of the number of times my mum had to produce the will after my dad died, and they'd been married for over 50 years with a simple black and white will in place.

Pensions and death in service benefits can be signed over to a partner - my OH did his years ago.

We are also just in the process of finalising our wills so everyone is 100% clear what our wishes are - including what happens with the dogs - it cost us less than £200 - and believe me - with each of us with a child of the same age, it's complicated to say the least.

If her name is on the mortgage - why does everything go to his sons? 

If your mum can prove she has contributed towards the property purchase and upkeep (which she must be able to if she is paying off the mortgage) - then she has a right to at least part of the remaining estate after all commitments etc have been settled.

Some banks mandate purchasers to have life insurance to cover the outstanding mortgage in the event that one party dies - otherwise - if they die intestate - it's as complicated for the banks as it is for everyone else.

I'm sorry for the position she finds herself in - and obviously you wouldn't wish the redundancy situation on anyone, whatever their age - but the fact they weren't married isn't at the root of the position she finds herself in with regards to her home.

==================================

With regards to the original article, which I've not fully read - I caught the gist from the news - I have to agree I can't see this being the sole factor for her killing herself - unfortunately, the media thrive on sensationalism  it would be something of a non event if lots of other reasons were reported as being contributory factors.

Once again - I am NOT trivialising what's happened - it's very tragic when someone believes that dying is their only way out and not something to be made light of. My cousin committed suicide a few years ago, and the devastation it left on his wife, children, mother, sblings and the wider family was terrible - worse still, in this instance, no-one ever found out why.

I also know, that having suffered from depression - twice severely - that there will always be a single trigger that becomes "the straw that broke the camels back" - quite often it will be a lot less trivial trigger than this story - but it is highly unlikely to be the sole contributory reason.

=========================

Someone else made reference to disability benefits - people no longer "register as disabled".

I can't say what's happened in the past - but anyone who believes these are an automatic right because someone is severely unwell / disabled - then you are very much mistaken.

The large majority of people applying for awards such as DLA / PIP / Incapacity Benefit etc really do have to fight for their entitlement - often having to go to appeal - very many don't have the energy or external support to work their way through the murky and complex appeals process - so without all the facts, probably best not to assume she hadn't already gone through this process and been rejected.

In addition to all the above - I think families on benefits fare a lot better financially (some more so than many low income families in work) than individuals with no dependents.

======================

There was a recent documentary on the issuing of incapacity benefit (for those unable to work -

DLA (to be replaced by PIP) is dependent on condition regardless of whether the claimant works or not) -

People were being declared fit to work if they could lift ONE arm above their head - another was on large doses of morphine throughout the day for back pain, which understandably sent him off to sleep fairly regularly - they told him he could easily undertake jobs such as working a supermarket till etc - can't see him being a great advert for good customer service

It's no big secret I suffer from chronic back problems and a number of other health issues; until now - I've been incredibly fortunate to work from home, with occasional travel - I hope and pray that because of the nature of the work I do - I'll be able to continue doing so - the fear of not working terrifies the living cr*p out of me and I just know there is no way I'd be capable of returning to work in an office 5 days a week.

I have an income protection scheme I've been paying through the nose for over 20+ years that MIGHT start if I am unable to work for 13 weeks - but until that situation arises, I've got no idea whether it would pay out or not - that lasts me until I'm just 55 - who knows what happens then.

I just pray I find a surgeon somewhere who can help.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> I have some experience of some Polish migrants, they are nice folk, work hard, and do not cause trouble, I know some "locals" who dont know how to behave, i dont tar everyone with the same brush but some do themselvese no good at all, anyone causing trouble should be deported, 3 of my mates got drunk in Spain and got put on a plane to Gatwick with no luggage or documents and had to get 180 miles home with no money or transport, but guess what, next time they behaved!


I have a friend that works for an employment agency and she says the polish are so hardworking, they will do jobs that many of our own wont do. All i can say is, say no to more immigrants and the jobs they come over and do, the ones on benefits should be "made" to do. All this talk of no jobs what they actually mean is no jobs they want to do or no jobs that pay as much as benefits.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

dont forget there are some hard working Brits too, albeit they may be a dying breed!

My other half says the pole he was working with was idle! *BUT*, he said that about some of the young brits too


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Basic economics suggests this is not true. Inflation rises with excessive profit margins not with fair distribution.


Wrong, ever heard the term "Wage Push Inflation". It's happened before. Unless productivity also increases which is what is likely to happen in China as this was a worry there. Increasing wages also does nothing for fair distribution.

Small companies employ the majority of people on a lower wage. Large corporations can probably absorb reduction in profits, the corner shop, the local pub, probably can't. So, raising wages supports the large corporations who can then dictate prices as there are no alternatives. You actually end up increasing the gap between rich and poor. You can highlight Mondragon and other collectives all you like, wages etc are competitive for their market as they want to keep personnel. People working for companies like this aren't the ones who work and have a standard of living below some of those on benefit.

Never did answer the core question did you.. do you believe people on benefit have the right to have a higher standard of living than people working?


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DT said:


> dont forget there are some hard working Brits too, albeit they may be a dying breed!
> 
> My other half says the pole he was working with was idle! *BUT*, he said that about some of the young brits too


I think theres the hardworking and idle anywhere really, i just think the jobs should be given to our own. Ime so lucky we have 2 sons that are hardworking but thats the way they have been brought up, my husband has never been out of work and always worked hard and so was his dad and his dad before him. Thats why i do think many and i know not all that are brought up with parents on benefits follow the "trend", this trend has to be broke somehow.

This has really gone off topic


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> I think theres the hardworking and idle anywhere really, i just think the jobs should be given to our own. D


That's exactly how I feel, AND those of ours who won't come off benefits for a minimum wage lose those benefits! all of em! END OF


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> I have a friend that works for an employment agency and she says the polish are so hardworking, they will do jobs that many of our own wont do. All i can say is, say no to more immigrants and the jobs they come over and do, the ones on benefits should be "made" to do. All this talk of no jobs what they actually mean is no jobs they want to do or no jobs that pay as much as benefits.


And you know what bugs the hell outta me HM, it is drummed into us all TO BUY BRITISH to support our farmers, and what do our farmers do???
OK some say, the brits wont work, they bloody would if I held the purse strings!


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Wrong, ever heard the term "Wage Push Inflation". It's happened before. Unless productivity also increases which is what is likely to happen in China as this was a worry there. Increasing wages also does nothing for fair distribution.
> 
> Small companies employ the majority of people on a lower wage. Large corporations can probably absorb reduction in profits, the corner shop, the local pub, probably can't. So, raising wages supports the large corporations who can then dictate prices as there are no alternatives. You actually end up increasing the gap between rich and poor. You can highlight Mondragon and other collectives all you like, wages etc are competitive for their market as they want to keep personnel. People working for companies like this aren't the ones who work and have a standard of living below some of those on benefit.
> 
> Never did answer the core question did you.. do you believe people on benefit have the right to have a higher standard of living than people working?


But you're argument is based on capitalism which the current situation proves doesn't work. I wish it were possible to win an argument by just saying "wrong", but it isn't. And you're right I can argue collectives all I want as they work and small company capitalism doesn't. You control wages and inflation by controlling production; this country does not control production it leaves it other people (the people who control the capital) so will never solve the problem. The situation you describe as a solution is actually the problem.

You didn't ask me a question, you just made a sarcastic comment at the bottom of your post... should people on benefits have a higher standard of living than those working? If the system you support generates unemployment (which capitalism has to in order to suppress wages to raise profit margins) then you should take a responsibility towards those people that your system puts out of work (deliberately).

Everyone should have a minimum standard of living; food and shelter, before anything can be considered. When your market system provides that very basic need, then we can discuss your question... at the moment, I don't accept the premise.

Edit to add. The wrongly named "wage push inflation" only exists because greedy employers who lose a little of their profits because of increasing wages, want to bump up margins (hence bumping up the prices of their products subsequently causing the inflation). It's traditional for them to do this out of greed and to do so by more than the actual wage increase. So paying fair wages does not cause the increase, greed causes the increase.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DT said:


> And you know what bugs the hell outta me HM, it is drummed into us all TO BUY BRITISH to support our farmers, and what do our farmers do???
> OK some say, the brits wont work, they bloody would if I held the purse strings!


exactly, they would if i had anything to do with it as well, this country has bred these idle buggers.Offer a job and if they dont take it stop their benefits, ive heard so many times, "its not worth it, i get more on benefits" well ide knock their benefits down to under the wage they had turned down, ide cure em!!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> , ide cure em!!


OR kill em!

My Dad used to say kill or cure


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Everyone should have a minimum standard of living; food and shelter, before anything can be considered. When your market system provides that very basic need, then we can discuss your question... at the moment, I don't accept the premise.


As you say, we aren't going to magically reform everything. I've never condoned capitalism but we have to work in the structure we have rather than imagine cloud cuckoo land. My question was not a sarcastic comment, it's the core of the point of discussion. Ignore those who work, people on benefits deserve it all seems to be your argument.

I would hope that safety nets can be placed in the policy to make sure people are supported. Then again I believe benefits should be a safety net to ensure that minimum standard of living for those who want to contribute or are unable to do so through no fault of their own. They should not a free pass no matter what and the safety net should be the minimal standard of living, food and shelter, not better than those who actively work.


----------



## tinktinktinkerbell (Nov 15, 2008)

So just let the disabled basically survive then


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> So just let the disabled basically survive then


There are *many* disabled people that can put the 'able' bodied to shame


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> So just let the *disabled *basically survive then


and many who are "labelled" disabled but are perfectly able, but thus receive the benefit, i.e. my daughter!!


----------



## tinktinktinkerbell (Nov 15, 2008)

DT said:


> There are *many* disabled people that can put the 'able' bodied to shame


Very true

But there are also those who will never work


----------



## tinktinktinkerbell (Nov 15, 2008)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> and many who are "labelled" disabled but are perfectly able, but thus receive the benefit, i.e. my daughter!!


If she doesn't need it why are you allowing her to claim it?


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> So just let the disabled basically survive then


If you want to put it that way then yes. We aren't talking simply about food and shelter after all but also amenities where necessary. However it should be remembered there are many disabled people contributing to society, working etc. Should their standard of living be worse because they work or should disabled people be encouraged to join society as an equal?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> Very true
> 
> But there are also those who will never work


And those that have no intensions of!

Shame we can't sort the wheat from the chaff


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> If she doesn't need it why are you allowing her to claim it?


she has type 1 diabetes.

edited to add I am talking about DLA as she does work, and works hard has a job and is 16!


----------



## tinktinktinkerbell (Nov 15, 2008)

DT said:


> And those that have no intensions of!
> 
> Shame we can't sort the wheat from the chaff


Indeed



reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> she has type 1 diabetes.
> 
> edited to add I am talking about DLA as she does work, and works hard has a job and is 16!


What does she get then?

You can claim DLA when working


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DT said:


> Shame we can't sort the wheat from the chaff


The problem is that the ones needing help haven't studied how to get the most out of the system. The one abusing the system know how to exploit it.


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> Indeed
> 
> What does she get then?
> 
> You can claim DLA when working


she gets mid rate - which is wrong as she does not need it to live her life, supplement her wage, help pay for care (may be later in life) x I cant go into details and mentioned earlier on this thread why we do claim, that this is where the system is wrong!! very wrong x


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> The problem is that the ones needing help haven't studied how to get the most out of the system. The one abusing the system know how to exploit it.


I will agree with that!


----------



## tinktinktinkerbell (Nov 15, 2008)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> she gets mid rate - which is wrong as she does not need it to live her life, supplement her wage, help pay for care (may be later in life) x I cant go into details and mentioned earlier on this thread why we do claim, that this is where the system is wrong!! very wrong x


So she does get DLA then


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> she has type 1 diabetes.
> 
> edited to add I am talking about DLA as she does work, and works hard has a job and is 16!


yup 


tinktinktinkerbell said:


> So she does get DLA then


yes - here are some sums

£205 pmth since the age of 6 till she passes ? wow and she has 3 other students at school who are type 1 and probably receive the same x


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Right!
Really gonna put the cat amongst the pigeons now
BUT! if you've got a tongue in your head, a telephone and can use a computer - then you can work!

opps! did I rattle a few cages


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Goblin said:


> rather than imagine cloud cuckoo land.


have you read the news and looked at the world lately?.... you're already there I'm afraid.


----------



## tinktinktinkerbell (Nov 15, 2008)

DT said:


> Right!
> Really gonna put the cat amongst the pigeons now
> BUT! if you've got a tongue in your head, a telephone and can use a computer - then you can work!
> 
> opps! did I rattle a few cages


How narrow minded, ignorant and wrong

But I think I've argued this with you before


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> How narrow minded, ignorant and wrong
> 
> But I think I've argued this with you before


You forgot realist


----------



## tinktinktinkerbell (Nov 15, 2008)

DT said:


> You forgot realist


Nope, I didn't


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

DT said:


> Right!
> Really gonna put the cat amongst the pigeons now
> BUT! if you've got a tongue in your head, a telephone and can use a computer - then you can work!
> 
> opps! did I rattle a few cages


both opinions both valid and both entitled to have x



tinktinktinkerbell said:


> How narrow minded, ignorant and wrong
> 
> But I think I've argued this with you before


but I know of plenty (personally) who hide behind the veil of depression - before you jump on me bear in mind I cared for my bipolar/dementic nan for 4 years so I *KNOW* what true mental health problems are x


----------



## tinktinktinkerbell (Nov 15, 2008)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> but I know of plenty (personally) who hide behind the veil of depression - before you jump on me bear in mind I cared for my bipolar/dementic nan for 4 years so I *KNOW* what true mental health problems are x


You may know that but you don't know how people are feeling


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

cant reply to you know who


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> You may know that but you don't know how people are feeling


and how do you know that?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> and how do you know that?


Coz she's speecil! silly!


----------



## tinktinktinkerbell (Nov 15, 2008)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> and how do you know that?


Erm maybe because you aren't in their head


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

DT said:


> Coz she's speecil! silly!


PMSL x spent 7 years as a care nurse - prior to working in education x what do I know !!! nuffink x


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> Erm maybe because you aren't in their head


and how do you know what I have suffered, just because I dont shout about it, does not mean I dont know x


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> PMSL x spent 7 years as a care nurse - prior to working in education x what do I know !!! nuffink x


You knew which end to put the pillow
I hope!!


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

DT said:


> You knew which end to put the pillow
> I hope!!


of course


----------



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> and how do you know what I have suffered, just because I dont shout about it, does not mean I dont know x


Very true - I sometimes feel that because people don't spread their private lives all over the Internet, their opinions are completely discounted when something like this comes up.

Not everyone likes to air their dirty laundry in public


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> of course


I'd like to learn how to 'lay 'people out'

There's a few I can think of i'd like to practise on!


----------



## Guest (May 15, 2013)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> How narrow minded, ignorant and wrong


Whys that?


----------



## tinktinktinkerbell (Nov 15, 2008)

reallyshouldnotwearjods said:


> and how do you know what I have suffered, just because I dont shout about it, does not mean I dont know x


I don't know what you've suffered but you don't know how others are feeling


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> I don't know what you've suffered but *you don't know* how others are feeling


how do *YOU* know?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> I don't know what you've suffered but you don't know how others are feeling


And you do?


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I had a good mate who was injured in a pit accident and confined to a wheelchair due to spinal injuries, he made concrete fence posts to sell (from moulds he made) became a competent cobbler, grew plants in poly tunnels and drove himself everywhere, when i see some who get out of cars in the "disabled" bays at Tesco i wonder how they qualify


----------



## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

tinktinktinkerbell said:


> You may know that but you don't know how people are feeling


I quite often _feel_ like I dont want to go to work to deal with same crap for the peanuts I get paid. Quite often I _feel_ really down about it and just want to pack it all in (my job that is).
Sometimes I come home from work and have a good cry because I have had such a crap day.

So what do feelings have to do with actually going to or doing some work?

If you can physically work then why not work?

Like DT said, if you can sit at a computer and talk on the phone you can work.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

> Motability is a Scheme in the United Kingdom that enables disabled people, their families and their carers to lease a new car, scooter or powered wheelchair, using their Government funded mobility allowance. Currently the Motability Scheme has* more than 600,000 customers*.


At the same time, taxi operators are being forced to buy "WAV" vehicles to run as taxi's - at double the cost (or more) of a saloon - to carry wheelchair passengers, some never get a wheelchair job....


----------



## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> I had a good mate who was injured in a pit accident and confined to a wheelchair due to spinal injuries, he made concrete fence posts to sell (from moulds he made) became a competent cobbler, grew plants in poly tunnels and drove himself everywhere, when i see some who get out of cars in the "disabled" bays at Tesco i wonder how they qualify


yup with you until this (used to work in Tesco's) - 
I was asked by a customer in a wheelchair to confront a man who just parked in a DB and walked into the store, so we waited then I approached the man and requested him not to use these bays as they were for the disabled - well he basically floored me when he lifted his top, showed me his colostomy tube and told me he had end stage bowl cancer, felt like a total Muppet - you never know, all I do know is those that are the quietest suffer the most IMHO x


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> I had a good mate who was injured in a pit accident and confined to a wheelchair due to spinal injuries, he made concrete fence posts to sell (from moulds he made) became a competent cobbler, grew plants in poly tunnels and drove himself everywhere, when i see some who get out of cars in the "disabled" bays at Tesco i wonder how they qualify


Hey! We have a soilder in our town who lost BOTH his legs in afganistan! He applied for a disabled badge for parking from the council and they REFUSED!!
their reason!!!!! He MIGHT get better! what did they expect ?? did they think he would grow a pair of legs???
Needless to say there was an uproar in the town and he got his badge, but that man does so so much for charity and other things now you don't even notice he has not legs!


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Ok think this is sorted if I have missed anything please let me know.

Keep this on track, no petty arguments, no goading and if you want to argue - DON'T !


----------



## click (Dec 23, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> I had a good mate who was injured in a pit accident and confined to a wheelchair due to spinal injuries, he made concrete fence posts to sell (from moulds he made) became a competent cobbler, grew plants in poly tunnels and drove himself everywhere, when i see some who get out of cars in the "disabled" bays at Tesco i wonder how they qualify


I don't doubt your word for a minute.But spinal injuries and making concrete posts? Have you ever worked in concrete? because I have.And I can't think of many occupations that is harder on the back than casting and humping concrete mouldings.
Far too heavy for anyone with a dodgy spine.Try lifting a paving slab.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I was just thinking. (and yes it did hurt  )


Two families have lived next door to each other for years had children there, who have now grown up, have always paid full rent all their working life, both are now on their own as they have now lost their either their husband/wife.

Now one has a small pension the other doesn't so gets benefit. So is it fair to let the one who doesn't claim benefit stay and the one on benefit pay more or move.????????????


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I was just thinking. (and yes it did hurt  )
> 
> Two families have lived next door to each other for years had children there, who have now grown up, have always paid full rent all their working life, both are now on their own as they have now lost their either their husband/wife.
> 
> Now one has a small pension the other doesn't so gets benefit. So is it fair to let the one who doesn't claim benefit stay and the one on benefit pay more or move.????????????


Yes, that's life !! Some people will always have more choices than others due to finances.

Why does everyone think about from that point of view, how about the mum who walked out on a abusive husband with her 2-3 children. The council have no houses to offer her, so they either place her in a one bed hostel , with a shared bathroom or a B&B where she has to walk the streets with the kids all day as their not allowed to stay in the room all day.....That is what does happen to a lot of people daily !


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> I was just thinking. (and yes it did hurt  )
> 
> Two families have lived next door to each other for years had children there, who have now grown up, have always paid full rent all their working life, both are now on their own as they have now lost their either their husband/wife.
> 
> Now one has a small pension the other doesn't so gets benefit. So is it fair to let the one who doesn't claim benefit stay and the one on benefit pay more or move.????????????


It doesn't affect anyone of retirement age so presumably both can stay where they are


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> Yes, that's life !! Some people will always have more choices than others due to finances.
> 
> Why does everyone think about from that point of view, how about the mum who walked out on a abusive husband with her 2-3 children. The council have no houses to offer her, so they either place her in a one bed hostel , with a shared bathroom or a B&B where she has to walk the streets with the kids all day as their not allowed to stay in the room all day.....That is what does happen to a lot of people daily !


But that would make sense if they were doing this to release houses for the more needy. They are not, they are doing it to either get more money or save more money, take your pick. They are not looking into the people who have a council house and don't live in it, because they have a second home somewhere else; they are not looking into the people who sublet on the quiet; and they are still giving social housing to people who don't even speak English.

Sort that out first, then they might get some support.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> It doesn't affect anyone of retirement age so presumably both can stay where they are


Yes you are right at the moment, but what about in the future!


----------



## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *In this day and age, NOBODY holds their destiny in their hands. The greedy selfish politicians have each and everyone of us by the short and curlies.*


What rubbish

The article says she had to lift carpet and mend a fence - she has a 23 year old son and a daughter, perhaps they could have done more to help their mother.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> Yes you are right at the moment, but what about in the future!


If anyone can see the future can they get me a few eurolottery jackpot winning lines please?

(big week if possible)


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Cookieandme said:


> What rubbish
> 
> The article says she had to lift carpet and mend a fence - she has a 23 year old son and a daughter, perhaps they could have done more to help their mother.


Forget this woman, what Janice199 has said is the government has taken our life out of our own hands. They want us to jump to what ever they say.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Cookieandme said:


> What rubbish
> 
> The article says she had to lift carpet and mend a fence - she has a 23 year old son and a daughter, perhaps they could have done more to help their mother.


*Rubbish it might be in your opinion, but i firmly believe we can no longer say, we hold our own destiny in our own hands. . The greedy selfish politicians have each and everyone of us by the short and curlies. They are robbing the poorest in our society.*


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> I was just thinking. (and yes it did hurt  )
> 
> Two families have lived next door to each other for years had children there, who have now grown up, have always paid full rent all their working life, both are now on their own as they have now lost their either their husband/wife.
> 
> Now one has a small pension the other doesn't so gets benefit. So is it fair to let the one who doesn't claim benefit stay and the one on benefit pay more or move.????????????


Totally and 100% yes

Cos thats life, we are NOT born equal, lifes a crock


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> but i firmly believe we can no longer say that we hold our own destiny in our own hands.


er, when did we ever?

destiny is a bit more than moaning about losing 14% of your HB cos you have a room you dont need.... whilst overlooking the other 86% of your rent and rates will still be paid


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> er, when did we ever?
> 
> destiny is a bit more than moaning about losing 14% of your HB cos you have a room you dont need.... whilst overlooking the other 86% of your rent and rates will still be paid


So if you lost 14% of your salary overnight and at the same time the amount of council tax you had to pay increased from £150 to £800 and there was absolutely nothing you could do to improve your situation you would be dancing in the streets ?


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> er, when did we ever?
> 
> destiny is a bit more than moaning about losing 14% of your HB cos you have a room you dont need.... whilst overlooking the other 86% of your rent and rates will still be paid


*14% of next to nothing is a lot.. As for moaning, it's more a case of speaking out. If nobody gave a damn, where would these poor people end up?*


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> So if you lost 14% of your salary overnight and at the same time the amount of council tax you had to pay increased from £150 to £800 and there was absolutely nothing you could do to improve your situation you would be dancing in the streets ?


I lose 8% of my salary every yr as commuting fees continue to rise and private companies do not follow. My 0.5% increase last yr didnt touch my 9% rail fare increase.
No-one other than Commuters care, we are just told not to work in London and suck it up. But the choice is basically work in lodnon or dont work.


----------



## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

5 afghaniston interpretators are being give a 5 year visa for them and their families ,and being found accommodation,must be empty houses somewhere then


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

jaycee05 said:


> 5 afghaniston interpretators are being give a 5 year visa for them and their families ,and being found accommodation,must be empty houses somewhere then


To be fair, they have been working on the front line alongside our soldiers. They put their lives on the line to assist OUR armed forces. It isnt like they have been handed it on a plate. They may not even recieve benefits, just being found accomodation which they may well pay for themselves.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

They are making out that this is not to cut costs, but to free up housing for families who need the houses with the extra rooms. I am not sure that I fall for that one. And if you have to move, then you should be OFFERED suitable alternative, you should not have to go out house-hunting. And removal costs are enormous...are those paid for the people wha have to move?


----------



## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Yes, i know and i agree they might deserve it, but what i was meaning was the goverment will find something for someone if they want to, but maybe not for others
I saw on TV yesterday that Barak Obama is giving 5% of his salary back to help the country, couldnt see David Cameron doing that


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Well I am crossing my fingers for my sister - there must be some in the benefits system who do try and help and thankfully she has managed to speak to one such lady. Sis had been granted the Discretionary Housing Payment, until July! The lady has overridden that and granted it for the full year, saying otherwise there is only 200k in the pot and if that is used up won't be able to help her.

Sis has also "bid" on a smaller house and is top of the list so its now dependant on the council agreeing to fund the adaptions for her handicapped daughter. Unfortunately they suspect the layout of the house means its not suitable for adapting but sister has said it doesn't bother her if downstairs is adapted for her daughter and they just use one of the bedrooms as a lounge. Hopefully they will agree and providing they also agree to release her from current tenancy (it was also adapted and because of that she is supposed to stay there for 10 years) then she can see a light at the end of the tunnel.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Well I am crossing my fingers for my sister - there must be some in the benefits system who do try and help and thankfully she has managed to speak to one such lady. Sis had been granted the Discretionary Housing Payment, until July! The lady has overridden that and granted it for the full year, saying otherwise there is only 200k in the pot and if that is used up won't be able to help her.
> 
> Sis has also "bid" on a smaller house and is top of the list so its now dependant on the council agreeing to fund the adaptions for her handicapped daughter. Unfortunately they suspect the layout of the house means its not suitable for adapting but sister has said it doesn't bother her if downstairs is adapted for her daughter and they just use one of the bedrooms as a lounge. Hopefully they will agree and providing they also agree to release her from current tenancy (it was also adapted and because of that she is supposed to stay there for 10 years) then she can see a light at the end of the tunnel.


I REALLY hope your sister gets sorted out!

They should have done this on an individual basis system and not a blanket benefit cut.


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

grumpy goby said:


> To be fair, they have been working on the front line alongside our soldiers. They put their lives on the line to assist OUR armed forces. It isnt like they have been handed it on a plate. They may not even recieve benefits, just being found accomodation which they may well pay for themselves.


Who are putting THEIR lives on the line to sort out their joke of a country.


----------



## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Good luck to your sister, hope she gets it sorted
RE;Afghans being rehoused in this country, i heard 5 this morning, now just read 600


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *14% of next to nothing is a lot.. As for moaning, it's more a case of speaking out. If nobody gave a damn, where would these poor people end up?*


Im all for speaking out!
but a waste of breathe really on a pet forum because its not going to make one ounce of difference!

The only way to speak out is at the ballot box
and those who don't just have to accept responsibility on how bad things are!

or I suppose on the other hand those that do have to share that blame for this bunch .


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

jaycee05 said:


> Good luck to your sister, hope she gets it sorted
> RE;Afghans being rehoused in this country, i heard 5 this morning, now just read 600


WTF is the point in our troops losing their lives to make their country safer if they are gonna come over anyway?! What a waste of lives!

Makes me so bloody angry!


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

harley bear said:


> Who are putting THEIR lives on the line to sort out their joke of a country.


The afghans didnt ask for them to go there did they....our government pushed ourselves on them. The bottom line is WE invaded them, and these people assisted them on the front line, put themselves in dangerous situations in order to aid our soldiers, and put their lives at risk to do so.

I have more respect for them, as they have actually done something for our armed forces, than nationals who make no effort yet get handed the world.

Also, these are skilled people - not unskilled workers. The chances are they will come over here, work, pay tax and pay rent like so many other people who migrate into the country.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> So if you lost 14% of your salary overnight and at the same time the amount of council tax you had to pay increased from £150 to £800 and there was absolutely nothing you could do to improve your situation you would be dancing in the streets ?


no, id stop whining and get on with it

i wouldnt top myself


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

harley bear said:


> WTF is the point in our troops losing their lives to make their country safer if they are gonna come over anyway?! What a waste of lives!
> 
> Makes me so bloody angry!


Not all afghans are being invited, just a few hundred who worked as translators

when we pull out they could become targets for hate

do you have any problem with Gurkha's being allowed to live here?


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> no, id stop whining and get on with it
> 
> i wouldnt top myself





Colliebarmy said:


> Not all afghans are being invited, just a few hundred who worked as translators
> 
> when we pull out they could become targets for hate
> 
> do you have any problem with Gurkha's being allowed to live here?


So you have more sympathy for foreigners than someone who is unfortunate enough to have to claim benefits it seems.

For info my sister has not "whined" once, after managing to care for her severely mentally and physically disabled daughter and 5 other children for 17 years whilst enduring extreme violence the likes of you could not begin to imagine from a deranged physcopath, the housing benefit situation is fairly low on her richter scale - its just a little hurdle to get through.


----------



## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> no, id stop whining and get on with it
> 
> i wouldnt top myself


Yeah cos you is hard  its very easy to say that sitting at a computer ....completely different in real life - there by the grace of god go I is a term that springs to mind - thank god not everyone thinks like you - who does not have an ounce of compassion,empathy or thought that others might - just might think differently to yourself  -

Not everyone copes the same - we are all made differently esp when it comes to dealing with a crisis - and just because someone deals with something in a way you would not does not mean they are wrong or a bad person - you just carry on living in your little goldfish bowl mate


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> Not all afghans are being invited, just a few hundred who worked as translators
> 
> when we pull out they could become targets for hate
> 
> do you have any problem with Gurkha's being allowed to live here?


We are in the middle of a housing crises...people are having money taken from then they dont have....the NHS is in a major state and is barely scraping by!

Let the bloody Americans have them, this is their war we were dragged into.

Its not just a couple of translators that will come over, it will be a family probably aunts uncles etc etc etc and they will have housing, benefits, nhs care the LOT!


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Lets look at it this way, for all those that feel sorry for people that have their rent paid and everything else that usually goes with the benefit yet have to find £20 more a week,ok that no doubt causes hardship to some people.

People who have a mortgage, how many time have we had an interest rise, mortgages rise,for most people a lot more than £20 a week, house prices drop, ok not actually money each week out of anyones pocket but never the less still monies lost.


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Lets look at it this way, for all those that feel sorry for people that have their rent paid and everything else that usually goes with the benefit yet have to find £20 more a week,ok that no doubt causes hardship to some people.
> 
> People who have a mortgage, how many time have we had an interest rise, mortgages rise,for most people a lot more than £20 a week, house prices drop, ok not actually money each week out of anyones pocket but never the less still monies lost.


Forgetting the extreme cases seen in the Press how much money do you think they get? People who have a mortgage factor in interest rises to ensure they can still afford it - even if they are daft enough not to consider this the lenders certainly do. So yes it might make things tighter but it can be found.

Workers also get paid at the same time and can budget. My sister gets carers allowance and something else so she is paid £50ish once a week and£30 something but thats only once a fortnight. Proper easy to budget on that!

Benefit claimaints still have to eat occasionally and also get the same bills as the rest of us


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Forgetting the extreme cases seen in the Press how much money do you think they get? People who have a mortgage factor in interest rises to ensure they can still afford it - even if they are daft enough not to consider this the lenders certainly do. So yes it might make things tighter but it can be found.
> 
> Workers also get paid at the same time and can budget. My sister gets carers allowance and something else so she is paid £50ish once a week and£30 something but thats only once a fortnight. Proper easy to budget on that!
> 
> Benefit claimaints still have to eat occasionally and also get the same bills as the rest of us


Not all people can afford interest rises, i know people a few years back that had to sell and downsize or the house would be repossesed. Ive had a wage freeze for 3 years now,so no your wrong when you say wages go up as interest goes up, thats how i read it anyway.

Theres also people with mortgages when started out affordable, yet have lost jobs, had to get less paid jobs or cuts in hours, they either struggle or down size.

people who rent and get hb not only get their rent paid but are assured that there are no nasty suprises around the corner, like hefty repair bills ect. In my opinion anyone that are renting on hb have had an easy ride and now things arnt as rosy they are complaining, you cant have it all ways.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Still no answer from all those moaning about the housing benefit reduction for under-utilized housing if they really think those on benefit automatically deserve a better, more secure, standard of living than those who work.


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Still no answer from all those moaning about the housing benefit reduction for under-utilized housing if they really think those on benefit automatically deserve a better, more secure, standard of living than those who work.


No I don't

Just there is no fairness in how it is being implemented


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> No I don't
> 
> Just there is no fairness in how it is being implemented


I fail to see what isnt fair tbh.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Benefit claimaints still have to eat occasionally and also get the same bills as the rest of us


Nope, not so, Benefit claimaints normally get their council tax (or the lions share of it ) paid!
We are on a low income BUT have to pay our own, all of it .


----------



## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

DT said:


> Im all for speaking out!
> but a waste of breathe really on a pet forum because its not going to make one ounce of difference!
> 
> The only way to speak out is at the ballot box
> ...


the ballot box is useless untill there is someone worth voting for.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

porps said:


> the ballot box is useless untill there is someone worth voting for.


BUT, my point is the opinion of many is that 'this lot' are to blame
Well, someone voted them in!
The only way to have averted that would have been to have voted for the opposing parties.
But hey hang on, problem would still have been here, albeit another party would have been to blame!


----------



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Isn't this whole bedroom 'tax' thing just bringing those who claim housing benefit while living in a council house into line with those who claim housing benefit while living in privately rented accommodation?

How is that even slightly unfair?


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> No I don't
> 
> Just there is no fairness in how it is being implemented


Your sister and her daughter should have been left alone. It makes no financial sense whatsoever to spend thousands adapting a house then turf the people out because they have an extra bedroom, and have to spend more thousands adapting another one.



DT said:


> BUT, my point is the opinion of many is that 'this lot' are to blame
> Well, someone voted them in!
> The only way to have averted that would have been to have voted for the opposing parties.
> But hey hang on, problem would still have been here, albeit another party would have been to blame!


Well, I for one did not want another term of Gordon Brown and the pseudo labour party, but if I had known that we were going to get the lib-dems, I would have stayed at home. Certainly the UKIP was not as popular in the last election as they are now; I know who to vote for next time.


----------



## click (Dec 23, 2011)

porps said:


> the ballot box is useless until there is someone worth voting for.




.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Your sister and her daughter should have been left alone. It makes no financial sense whatsoever to spend thousands adapting a house then turf the people out because they have an extra bedroom, and have to spend more thousands adapting another one.
> 
> Well, I for one did not want another term of Gordon Brown and the pseudo labour party, but if I had known that we were going to get the lib-dems, I would have stayed at home. Certainly the UKIP was not as popular in the last election as they are now; I know who to vote for next time.


Likewise, likewise and likewise again


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Still no answer from all those moaning about the housing benefit reduction for under-utilized housing if they really think those on benefit automatically deserve a better, more secure, standard of living than those who work.


*Who is saying they deserve a better, or secure standard of living? They have sweet F all to start with.*


----------



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Who is saying they deserve a better, ore secure standard of living? They have sweet F all to start with.*


Hardly. We will be claiming benefits between graduating and starting our (university degree related) jobs in August/September. We get almost all our rent paid, council tax benefit, and the remainder will be topped up by my wages from being self employed.

Council tax excepted - and we were exempt from that as students anyway, I don't know how much we'll have to pay on benefits - we'll be £24 up on our previous annual income. That's without OH claiming the JSA he would be 'entitled' to.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Who is saying they deserve a better, or secure standard of living? They have sweet F all to start with.*


Most people start with "F all" as you put it. They do things about it. Many who do work aren't able to live in houses with one spare room but you think those on benefits should retain them when there are possibly people who could utilize them better. You aren't pushing for benefits to be better targeting those who need them, only "it's not fair it's being cut" in general. Better targeting to help those who need it, well most people I know of could support that. General "not fair on those who are on benefits" I for one, cannot.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Most people start with "F all" as you put it. .


I quote and replied to the same post!
but it seems to have vanished!


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

DT said:


> I quote and replied to the same post!
> but it seems to have vanished!


Maybe your post had sweet f all to do with this thread!!


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Megan345 said:


> Isn't this whole bedroom 'tax' thing just bringing those who claim housing benefit while living in a council house into line with those who claim housing benefit while living in privately rented accommodation?
> 
> How is that even slightly unfair?


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Most people start with "F all" as you put it. They do things about it. Many who do work aren't able to live in houses with one spare room but you think those on benefits should retain them when there are possibly people who could utilize them better. You aren't pushing for benefits to be better targeting those who need them, only "it's not fair it's being cut" in general. Better targeting to help those who need it, well most people I know of could support that. General "not fair on those who are on benefits" I for one, cannot.


*When i see people on benefits having to resort to food banks, and also being asked for extra money towards an extra bedroom or council tax, then yes i will still say it is wrong.*


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

gorgeous said:


> Maybe your post had sweet f all to do with this thread!!


Opps I never thought of that!
I was merely commenting on the lanquage, or what the language incinerated 'should' there be children around!


----------



## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

DT said:


> Opps I never thought of that!
> I was merely commenting on the lanquage, or what the language incinerated 'should' there be children around!


Well my love hope thats cleared up any confusion for you!! Now lets get back on topic shall we?


----------



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *When i see people on benefits having to resort to food banks, and also being asked for extra money towards an extra bedroom or council tax, then yes i will still say it is wrong.*


This is the bit I don't get - perhaps they way it's being implemented isn't correct, but why is this not a sound proposition in general? It's just OH, the dogs and me in the house - I wouldn't expect an extra bedroom to be paid for for when his daughter comes to stay (or our parents, grandparents, etc). She doesn't live here, that would be ludicrous. We don't need more than one bedroom.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

There was a family on 'skint' the other night, 5 children and can someone confirm please that they were getting benefits totalling £1600 per month, and complaining that the benefits had been cut, they had a massive TV.

Sorry to go off track as I know this is about the bedroom tax, and I definitely DONT agree with that at all, but seems to be those that are more responsible with perhaps none or one child that are being targeted!
So what does that say?? keep churning out kids?:scared:


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *When i see people on benefits having to resort to food banks, and also being asked for extra money towards an extra bedroom or council tax, then yes i will still say it is wrong.*


What about the working people that are also resorting to food banks in these times...the ones around here have never been so busy...


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jon bda said:


> What about the working people that are also resorting to food banks in these times...the ones around here have never been so busy...


*lol i have said anything against them? FACT is this government is screwing the poor left right and centre.*


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

jon bda said:


> What about the working people that are also resorting to food banks in these times...the ones around here have never been so busy...


I think it has been mentioned that some working people have been hit far far worse then those on benefits due to the rising costs, and many have come out of fixed rate mortgages and these have risen alarmingly.

I know a family who have their house for sale because their mortgage has is costing a lot more but if they sell it they are in negative equity, they both work, and the girl was telling me the other day that the only way they can afford food is to buy it on their credit card, they have taken a zero interest credit card (for a year I guess) and they are hoping things improve in the next year!
What a blinking life eh?


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *lol i have said anything against them? FACT is this government is screwing the poor left right and centre.*


But why the sympathy purely for people claiming? As someones said above, it might not be getting enforced right but surely people moving out of a house that doesn't belong to them to make way for a bigger family or have to pay a little extra to stay where they are makes good sense?


----------



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

jon bda said:


> But why the sympathy purely for people claiming? As someones said above, it might not be getting enforced right but surely people moving out of a house that doesn't belong to them to make way for a bigger family or have to pay a little extra to stay where they are makes good sense?


I'd have thought so. I'd rather stay in our 2 bed than move to a 1 bed, so we pay a bit extra for it. If I didn't want to, we'd have to move or find better paying jobs for the next few months - tedious, but why on earth should the taxpayer pay for our lifestyle on the grounds of 'I don't want to move'?


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *When i see people on benefits having to resort to food banks, and also being asked for extra money towards an extra bedroom or council tax, then yes i will still say it is wrong.*


It's not the principle which is wrong though.. it's the lack of safety net. Quick example.. shouldn't need to pay if no smaller houses are available locally. Target things like that and you would probably get more support but you don't. For every one needing food banks how many claiming, live better than those who work.. Not that those who do will admit to it but they'll support you 100%.

Benefits should be a safety net, not a right to a comfortable living with a higher standard than many who work.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Lets give those people working in low paid jobs extra help, maybe just maybe it might make working for a living look a bit more attractive at the moment sitting waiting for their benefits looks more favourable and it has for a long time, far too long and now the government want a bit back all hell lets loose.

Why do ya think so many say "i cant afford to go to work", why do we hear "i cant get a job that pays as much as my benefits do"...then they tootle off down to the food bank, makes me sick to be honest.


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Your sister and her daughter should have been left alone. It makes no financial sense whatsoever to spend thousands adapting a house then turf the people out because they have an extra bedroom, and have to spend more thousands adapting another one.


Thank you, someone who seems to understand at last



Goblin said:


> Most people start with "F all" as you put it. They do things about it. Many who do work aren't able to live in houses with one spare room but you think those on benefits should retain them when there are possibly people who could utilize them better. *You aren't pushing for benefits to be better targeting those who need them,* only "it's not fair it's being cut" in general. Better targeting to help those who need it, well most people I know of could support that. General "not fair on those who are on benefits" I for one, cannot.


That is why I have participated in the thread to try and show those who should receive more help are in fact being hit even harder. My niece cannot walk, talk, feed herself she is 30 years old and my sister has looked after her night and day for all of those 30 years. She can't take in a lodger because of noise issues, she can't get a part time job because she cannot leave her daughter it would be the same as leaving a baby alone. Surely this is the type of case that the benefits system was actually meant for


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I have not said i don't feel for those working, on low wages ect. I feel for all those less fortunate than myself.*


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Lets give those people working in low paid jobs extra help, maybe just maybe it might make working for a living look a bit more attractive at the moment sitting waiting for their benefits looks more favourable and it has for a long time, far too long and now the government want a bit back all hell lets loose.
> 
> Why do ya think so many say "i cant afford to go to work", why do we hear "i cant get a job that pays as much as my benefits do"...then they tootle off down to the food bank, makes me sick to be honest.


Totally agree!

A family of 5 down the road, the guy is 'disabled' (bad foot) hes soon running down the shop for his **** and booze and on school runs etc etc etc....just before the new benefit changes came in he was suddenly not disabled and got himself a job..which lasted about 2 weeks! Just enough time to realise that they were better off sitting on their arses caiming all the benefits under the sun! :
And you know what makes me even more mad? Their kids look like they have just been pulled out of a rag bag and stink to high heaven! 

Why were on the subject of benefits and working people not getting as much as the people on benefits....it drives me up the wall that they get free school meals while if someone is working their arses off with say 2 kids in school they would have to pay an extra £80 per month to give their kids a hot meal!

We had a stint on benefits when OH lost his job and i have to say i found the cash to make sure my kids were fed at dinner times for very little a week... a packed lunch for a child doesnt cost a lot at all!

ETA I dont think the meals should be completely free but considerably cheaper than they are!


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

And that is still the major flaw in the housing benefit changes - it still encourages producing loads of children to fill up the bedrooms :skep: Someone on their own with a disabled dependant is penalised, someone with loads of children getting loads of benefits for all the kids is not penalised


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> And that is still the major flaw in the housing benefit changes - it still encourages producing loads of children to fill up the bedrooms :skep: Someone on their own with a disabled dependant is penalised, someone with loads of children getting loads of benefits for all the kids is not penalised


And that is the root of the problem


----------



## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> And that is still the major flaw in the housing benefit changes - it still encourages producing loads of children to fill up the bedrooms :skep: Someone on their own with a disabled dependant is penalised, someone with loads of children getting loads of benefits for all the kids is not penalised


Yep! I have had to sit in the school and listen to a woman who had a 'fumble' and ios now pregnant and she was totting us how much money she would get off the dad and the extra benefits she will be getting


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> And that is still the major flaw in the housing benefit changes - it still encourages producing loads of children to fill up the bedrooms :skep: Someone on their own with a disabled dependant is penalised, someone with loads of children getting loads of benefits for all the kids is not penalised


The over all cap on the amounts of benefits at 25k will help that situation, as the won't get paid more per child to keep having them  I know my sister who has 5 kids has a BIG shock coming her way when the roll it out across the country !


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Can someone explain a bit to me. Just out of curiosity and I don´t live in UK.
This does not affect people that own their own homes right? (that are paying for them with their money)
Are there so many people on housing benefits?


----------



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

merlin12 said:


> Can someone explain a bit to me. Just out of curiosity and I don´t live in UK.
> This does not affect people that own their own homes right? (that are paying for them with their money)
> Are there so many people on housing benefits?


It doesn't affect those in their own homes or those who rent from a private landlord, just those who rent council houses and housing association places.

I don't think there are as many on housing benefit as this thread might lead you to believe


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Megan345 said:


> It doesn't affect those in their own homes or those who rent from a private landlord, just those who rent council houses and housing association places.
> 
> I don't think there are as many on housing benefit as this thread might lead you to believe


Can people who are actually working still get housing benefit if on a low wage? I am not sure on that but a lot seem to think all recipients are low life scroungers


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

merlin12 said:


> Can someone explain a bit to me. Just out of curiosity and I don´t live in UK.
> This does not affect people that own their own homes right? (that are paying for them with their money)
> Are there so many people on housing benefits?


*No it doesn't affect those that own their own homes. But it will affect most unemployed or on benefits that are in council or housing association properties.
If you think of how many are out of work and claiming, you will get some idea of how many DO claim.*


----------



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

merlin12 said:


> Can someone explain a bit to me. Just out of curiosity and I don´t live in UK.
> This does not affect people that own their own homes right? (that are paying for them with their money)
> Are there so many people on housing benefits?


It doesn't affect those in their own homes or those who rent from a private landlord, just those who rent council houses and housing association places.

I don't think there are as many on housing benefit as this thread might lead you to believe


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

" At February 2013, the total number of people claiming Housing Benefit was 5.08 million, with 5.90 million claiming Council Tax Benefit."

DWP Statistical Summary


----------



## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> Can someone explain a bit to me. Just out of curiosity and I don´t live in UK.
> This does not affect people that own their own homes right? (that are paying for them with their money)
> Are there so many people on housing benefits?


No, this only affects people that rent their house from the council or any social housing landlord and are receiving benefits, which enables them to get their house rent free.

From April 2013, Housing Benefit will be restricted to only allow payments for one bedroom for each person or couple. If you have a spare bedroom you will be regarded as under-occupying the property and Housing Benefit will no longer pay for the additional room. This means that you will have to make up the shortfall from your own income.

If the rent for you property is £100, your benefit will be reduced by 14% for an unoccupied bedroom, for two unoccupied or more rooms it will be reduced my 25%.

Which means if a single person is occupying a three bedroom house they will lose 25% of their current housing benefit.

Taken from the Department for Work and Pensions statics: At February 2013, the total number of people claiming Housing Benefit was 5.08 million.

Hope this clarifies things for you - it is a very complicated and emotive subject.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Megan345 said:


> *It doesn't affect those in their own homes* or those who rent from a private landlord, just those who rent council houses and housing association places.


well it could, if a home owner was claiming CT benefits and not of pensionable age....


----------



## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

Could someone rent out the extra room? this seems to be causing a lot of problems for those on benefits from what I can see.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

merlin12 said:


> Could someone rent out the extra room? this seems to be causing a lot of problems for those on benefits from what I can see.


*I believe some councils and housing associations allow this, but not all.*


----------



## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

Yes they could rent out the extra room or rooms. I think this has been suggested to make up the shortfall.

They could also ask to be moved to smaller accommodation i.e a one bedroom flat, house or apartment, if there is such a thing for rent in that area.

@Colliebarmy, if you owned your own home you wouldnt be able to claim housing benefit, as you wouldnt need to. If you rent from a private landlord and are claiming and receiving housing benefit, I would imagine that the same rules apply as if you were renting from a housing association or the council, though I could be wrong about the latter.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

" Factsheet  Renting out your spare room

From April 2013 there will be new rules in Housing Benefit for working-age people living in social housing. Housing Benefit will no longer pay for bedrooms that they decide you do not need.

For some people, offering out a spare room to a lodger may be a sensible option. This would mean that Housing Benefit would no longer consider the room to be spare.

In addition to this, the first £20 of weekly income from a lodger is ignored and wont affect your benefits. If you receive more than £20 a week in rent, the extra cash is likely to affect your benefits - although overall you should still be better off. Your local authority or an advice organisation will be able to advise you on the effects additional income will have on your benefit."

*Taken from government website.*


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

harley bear said:


> Yep! I have had to sit in the school and listen to a woman who had a 'fumble' and ios now pregnant and she was totting us how much money she would get off the dad and the extra benefits she will be getting


QUIDS IN!!!!!!


----------



## click (Dec 23, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> " Factsheet  Renting out your spare room
> 
> From April 2013 there will be new rules in Housing Benefit for working-age people living in social housing. Housing Benefit will no longer pay for bedrooms that they decide you do not need.
> 
> ...


If you are a pensioner living on the state pension and getting a 25% single person discount on local taxes.On average two thirds of any rent charged will be snatched back in lost benefits.
Out of the remaining twenty odd quid you will have to lay out extra in house insurances,appliance safety certificates,and extra gas and electricity supply.Plus general wear and tear on furnishings etc.

For losing your privacy and space you would be lucky to finish up with a fiver extra in your pocket.

Your local council won't tell you how much extra your local taxes will be until the lodger actually moves in.

A complete waste of time even considering it.


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

I am a private tenant and with lanlord agreement have rented my spare room several times. It is a bit of a pain having to share but if its needed to survive then its a sensible option.

I don't see why council tenants on benefit should consider themselves over and above what many many private tenants and homeowners have to do in order to stay above water, if it means you are better off in the end

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


----------

