# Cesar Millan- Episodes and trainning



## Skyelacey (Jan 23, 2010)

Hi there well i have watched a few of his episodes and from what i see he is a great trainner and understands the dogs fantastically.

I was wondering if anyone knows a way to watch full length episodes online like on an iplayer? As i don't have sky just now as am moving today and have to wait 30days cooling off before i can get it. I've tried national channel but all i get is an advert of a dog driving a car lol.

Also has anyone tried his methods on their dog/s and what method did you use? Did it work?

Please no haters there are enough threads for you to post on about that, thanks.

Skye

P.s Diesel is doing terrifically he can now sit, stay, paw (when i say other one he gives his other paw) lay down and knows, pee and bed as well he's so clever and just a joy


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Do you have adobe flash ?
If you do this might work:
Watch Dog Whisperer Online | Streaming Full Length Episodes | Video Clips | Fancast.
I've never really used any of his techniques - haven't needed to lol .
I know someone who has six dogs and one kept beating the other up lol - she told him to 'lie flat' once she split them up, like the position CM 'pins' them down in, except she didn't touch him. Within a week he had completely stopped attacking the other dog hmy:. After four years of doing it non stop, with is something of an achievement lol. Aww that's so good, how old is Diesel? Nicole x


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## Skyelacey (Jan 23, 2010)

He's 9weeks 3days old  he learnt sit and paw at 7 weeks lol, taught him lay down last week. It takes me 5 minutes to teach each trick he so fast at learning. lol Thanks for the link i'll take a look


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Most of the theory he bases his stuff on has since been disproven. This is a really good article that explains:

The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan

As far as I'm concerned a lot of what he does it basically bullying the dog. And he sees dominance problems EVERYWHERE even when it has nothing to do with the problem.

These are some of his episodes that make me LOL the hardest:

YouTube - Is this dog dominant - the puppy eats food off the table that's been left unsupervised. Dominant? Of course not. It just sees an opportunity. 
YouTube - Dog Dominant to Light? The dog is dominant to LIGHT? REALLY?

Then a quick poll: which technique for handling a dog that doesn't want to be groomed do you think is a) safer for the handler, b) safer for the dog, c) more likely to result in long-term easier and more pleasant handling ?

Technique 1: YouTube - Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog
Technique 2: YouTube - Dog Aggressive for Toenail Trim | AskDrYin.com


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Skyelacey said:


> He's 9weeks 3days old  he learnt sit and paw at 7 weeks lol, taught him lay down last week. It takes me 5 minutes to teach each trick he so fast at learning. lol Thanks for the link i'll take a look


Oh wow that's brilliant ! Smart little guy lol - what breed is he? x


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

ArwenLune said:


> Most of the theory he bases his stuff on has since been disproven. This is a really good article that explains:
> 
> The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan
> 
> ...


Dominant to light LOL LOL LOL!

The bloke really is a tool :biggrin:


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## Skyelacey (Jan 23, 2010)

yeah he is fuzz, he's a great dane x rhodesian ridgeback. 

Thats for the info and the links about why not to use the techniques, i will take a look and make a decision based on what i read from both good and bad sides. Thanks,.

Skye


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## Skyelacey (Jan 23, 2010)

Just watched the clip on light dominant dog and thats a little mental. The dogs only playing lol. Like i said though i'll have a look and decide based on that. 

Skye


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

If you want any other options to make your choice, take a look at these too:

It's Me or the Dog - Episode Guide - Channel 4

You can watch all the episodes here frmo about the last 7 series I think it is.

The newer ones seem to be better. If you watch the earlier ones and the later ones, you will see that this trainer updates her training methods throughout with the new information/studies etc that become available so that she is always up to date.

CMs methods are not really for training pups though anyway to be honest...

In answer to your question, I have never used his methods on my dogs - and just to note, all his episodes do state NOT TO TRY THIS AT HOME for a reason...so please take note of that.

just remember to make sure you and your pup have fun training together, whatever you decide.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

well for me personally, im on the fence with this subject. i think cesar himself and how he trains HIS dogs in HIS home are great. i know that his dogs are happy, healthy, and loved 
BUT, to put the techniques he uses, into the hands of people who cannot or do not use them PROPERLY, well that just doesnt sit right with me.
as ive said before, i dont think a prong collar is necesarrily a bad thing. its not a torture device, it wasnt invented by some sicko, its just a TOOL. and when used properly, this tool will not harm your dog physically nor mentally.
but, does the general dog owner know how to use these tools properly? i feel...not really. and thats how good dogs get hurt, and good hearted people like cm, get the blame.
i liken it to the use of narcotics in humans. when used improperly, these TOOLS (yes they are a tool) can hurt, but under proper care? the patient and everyone around them is for the better.
but throw the oxycodone into the general public and you will wind up with sick and damaged people everywhere due to improper use of a tool that was created to help people get well in the first place.

the atomic bomb, in the early stages of the atomic discoveries, were not meant to take human lives. it was put into the wrong hands.

get my drift?

all said though, i dont think cm gets enough credit for his heart and his work that he has put into dogs throughout his life. he HAS studied how dogs behave in a group, and by studying how ANY animal behaves in groups, you will learn how they communicate to one another.
that is what has been his work, and trying to teach the language of dogs to humans, in order for there to be better bond and closer relationships, i think is commendable.
whether he is doing what he does the "right way" or not, the fact that he is just DOING it i think it is admirable, absolutely.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Dominant to light LOL LOL LOL!
> 
> The bloke really is a tool :biggrin:


Yeah, that was pretty stupid even by Millan's standards.

I recall an episode with Virginia Madsen in which a dog gets taken out of a crate into the back yard. The dog urinates on a bush and Cesar tells us that the dog is *'dominant to the environment"*


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

kello82 said:


> he HAS studied how dogs behave in a group, and by studying how ANY animal behaves in groups, you will learn how they communicate to one another.
> that is what has been his work, and trying to teach the language of dogs to humans, in order for there to be better bond and closer relationships, i think is commendable.
> whether he is doing what he does the "right way" or not, the fact that he is just DOING it i think it is admirable, absolutely.


I could give any joker on the street a couple of books and a few DVDs and if they studied them, they would possess far more knowledge about dogs abd training than Millan ever will.

Not only is Millan ignorant, but it seems that he actively avoids knowledge. There is nothing commendable about active, self imposed stupidity.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> If you want any other options to make your choice, take a look at these too:
> 
> It's Me or the Dog - Episode Guide - Channel 4
> 
> ...


I think I caught one of these episodes a couple of days ago, very good too I was really impressed xx

UPDATE...Just checked on 4OD what it was and yup...it's me or the dog, I totally recomend this programme....Victoria Stillwell doesn't shout, isn't violant and has helped tame the most untrained of dog and I really do recomend the programme...even if you just have a look at both of the programmes and then make your mind up, believe me you'll be surprised at the difference.
Clare xx


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

kello82 said:


> as ive said before, i dont think a prong collar is necesarrily a bad thing. its not a torture device, it wasnt invented by some sicko, its just a TOOL. and when used properly, this tool will not harm your dog physically nor mentally.
> but, does the general dog owner know how to use these tools properly? I feel...not really. and thats how good dogs get hurt, and good hearted people like cm, get the blame.


The thing is, this may have been true 40 years ago yes...when we didn't know what we know today about the newer, more effective and KINDER methods. These newer methods have better results even and less potential to cause bad reactions...so WHY would anyone promote the use of these archaic 'tools'? They are just not necessary.

If CM was doing what he does WITHOUT promoting it for MONEY, (yes money - he doesnt do everything out the goodness of his heart)...then it wouldnt be so much of a problem. Let him get on with it, do what he does...however, he has been put on TV like some kind of role model. This is dangerous - this is why so many people malign him. Are there positives to him? - Well he has raised awareness about the role needed in a pets life of exercise and love etc, he has rescued animals from being put down (but many of his programmes are NOT last chance dogs, as CM supporters would have everyone believe)...but *these things are not new or unique to him*!!!

Every dog trainer says these things! To pick another TV trainer, Victoria Stillwell says these things about needing exercise etc AND she doesnt use ridiculous outdated methods. In fact if you watch her TV series from the early to the newer ones, you can see she updates her knowledge and methods, as new learning becomes available. This is why I am against CM - as corinthian said, its as if he doesnt WANT to learn, he doesnt want to increase his knowledge and understand more about helping dogs?? In this day and age you have to move with the times or you get left behind - unfortunately he seems to have resurfaced like a throw back to some dark age!


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> The thing is, this may have been true 40 years ago yes...when we didn't know what we know today about the newer, more effective and KINDER methods. These newer methods have better results even and less potential to cause bad reactions...so WHY would anyone promote the use of these archaic 'tools'? They are just not necessary.
> 
> If CM was doing what he does WITHOUT promoting it for MONEY, (yes money - he doesnt do everything out the goodness of his heart)...then it wouldnt be so much of a problem. Let him get on with it, do what he does...however, he has been put on TV like some kind of role model. This is dangerous - this is why so many people malign him. Are there positives to him? - Well he has raised awareness about the role needed in a pets life of exercise and love etc, he has rescued animals from being put down (but many of his programmes are NOT last chance dogs, as CM supporters would have everyone believe)...but *these things are not new or unique to him*!!!
> 
> Every dog trainer says these things! To pick another TV trainer, Victoria Stillwell says these things about needing exercise etc AND she doesnt use ridiculous outdated methods. In fact if you watch her TV series from the early to the newer ones, you can see she updates her knowledge and methods, as new learning becomes available. This is why I am against CM - as corinthian said, its as if he doesnt WANT to learn, he doesnt want to increase his knowledge and understand more about helping dogs?? In this day and age you have to move with the times or you get left behind - unfortunately he seems to have resurfaced like a throw back to some dark age!


Agreed..I look at it like this...

CM.....old fasioned methods...belittling, bullying and humilation = scared dog

VS.....updating knowledge wlling to learn calm approach trainsthe owner as welas the dog = well trained dog

I make my decision based on the above...however...not everyon will agree wih me..each to their own but it's worth lookng at every option before deciding

Clare xx


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

I really dont know tbh - i am no expert, but what i have always found odd - is when he is overpowering the dog, the dog is screaming, and he says things like....its not hurting him/her....this is what we want....it is just noise....me being no expert - even i can tell that is bull. And if he done that to my dogs, i would beat the living daylights out of him lol.
I tend not to listen to so called experts, and just listen to my dogs  
(Although i do like victoria stillwell, i ahve got some good tips from her)

Having said that, his claims that he rehabiltates dogs, that would have been destroyed.......also all those dogs in his pack, and he has complete control over them?? and they seem happy and balanced?? he must be doing something right??


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## Chesben (Mar 4, 2009)

Sorry haven't read through all the replies thoroughly - at work and trying to do this quickly! But I would like to add that I don't agree with alot of stuff CM does but I watched an episode this week where he was working with a terribly shy and terrified dog in a shelter and he worked great with this dog. No bullying or forcing the dog to do anything and the change in the dog was unbelievable. Great to see at the end with the new family and playing with the family's other dog as it wouldn't interact with any dogs previously


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Chesben said:


> Sorry haven't read through all the replies thoroughly - at work and trying to do this quickly! But I would like to add that I don't agree with alot of stuff CM does but I watched an episode this week where he was working with a terribly shy and terrified dog in a shelter and he worked great with this dog. No bullying or forcing the dog to do anything and the change in the dog was unbelievable. Great to see at the end with the new family and playing with the family's other dog as it wouldn't interact with any dogs previously


I saw that one too, that was a dog that was in a lab, and was terrified of humans, as the only ever interaction he had with humans caused him pain - the lady rescued him from the shleter as they were going to pts - he was terrifed, and ceaser really helped him learn to trust. no bullying, just calmness.....


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

CM is NOT a dog trainer.

VS IS a dog trainer.

So is Ian Dunbar. *YouTube - DogStarDaily's Channel*

Nuff said.:001_cool:

Oh and I don't *hate* him. I just know the difference between a celebrity dog subduer and a proper trainer is all.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I agree with Caroline and Katie. 

The dog-whisperer is a tv programme. It's entertainment and that's all it is! He doesn't "train" the dogs in my eyes- he bullies them.

The reality is that Cesar Millan is a showman. He preaches all of this hokery pokery stuff about "dominance" and needing to have the right "energy" and your dog's problems are solved! As if!

I actually think the guy's heart is in the right place- he does actually want to help the dogs but the way he goes about it and the methods he uses are so old they are practically medieval.



lemmsy said:


> His methods are cruel and incredibly dangerous.
> He painfully misdiagnoses dogs- with him they are "dominant" and once he has used his hideous methods on them (jabbing, grabbing, kicking, shocking, prong collars, checking, hitting,strangling, alpha rolling, pinning and thoroughly intimidating) to the point where the dogs are either in a hysterical state where they react to very low level triggers or misdirect aggression or they totally shut down and show every appeasement signal in the book (which he naturally ignores or is unable to identify); he then classes them as "calm submissive!"
> 
> Disgraceful


This grave misinterpretation of dogs' bodylanguage is what he uses to justify his own hideous methods.

The fact of the matter is that in dog training, there are generally no quick fixes and what is needed is hard work and consistency. It's about educating yourself, making the effort to understand your dog, using positive reinforcement/kind methods with patience and consistency so that your dog learns to trust you and learns how you WANT them to behave rather than how you don't! It's all about building a relationship with your dog where the dog trusts your guidance, looks to you for it and for fun, positive experiences. It's about properly stimulating, exercising and meeting your dog's needs. No one single factor can give you a perfectly trained, balanced dog- you need to put the effort in on all accounts.

I think the phrase that we normally teach our children "Treat others how you would like to be treated yourself", can teach us something too.
I know if I were a dog (humour me here!  ) I would much rather be trained in a positive manner rather using CM style prophecies (although on reflection, as a dog I probably wouldn't consider this anyway, being a dog and all that- but anyway- you can see where I'm coming from!! )


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> I agree with Caroline and Katie.
> 
> The dog-whisperer is a tv programme. It's entertainment and that's all it is! He doesn't "train" the dogs in my eyes- he bullies them.
> 
> ...


BARK...WOOF WOOF....Grrrr...yelp....raf raf....oh my don't you type well with paws......oopsi sorry you said IF you where a dog 
I really do agree with you here...it takes a calm aproach, one step at a time instead of overloading the poor dog with information nd tone of voice, dogs aren't english they're canine and theyrespond to tones and hand gesturs much better tan shouting and bullying, you yell t a dog, they bark back....
I'm not against CM I just dont agree with his training methods, the only eason he didn't use his usual training methods with the said Lab is because te poor thing was terrified already...
Of now...
Bark Bark everyone :smile5: xx


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

anybody got any reasons as to why CM dogs are so well behaved. They look happy, healthy and my no means look anyway scared of him.

TBH im on the fence with all dog trainers, we only see what they want us to see on the TV. Until I actually see any of them first hand I cant make my mind up. Most see CM as a bully, this is what is portrayed on TV 'I have seen episodes where he has sat on the floor with scared dogs for hours gaining their trust we never get to see what happens behind the scenes, same as Victoria? 'its me or the dog' we only see all the good points not what happens before and after.

'I saw an episode the other day 'its me or the dog' the dog was very agressive to strangers coming in the home but fine outside offlead' she distracted the dog with food 'fine' but it growled at someone coming in and she said good boy come here then and gave him a treat


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

cutekiaro1 said:


> anybody got any reasons as to why CM dogs are so well behaved. They look happy, healthy and my no means look anyway scared of him.


because they wouldnt show u any different as that wouldnt be really promoting his show, would it :wink:

Also he has got people taking care of his dogs always there if any fights break out...


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> anybody got any reasons as to why CM dogs are so well behaved. They look happy, healthy and my no means look anyway scared of him.


Probably because they live in a pack, are handled by staff rather than him and pretty much manage themselves.

Ive asked this question before, and no one has ever answered me, if CM isnt a trainer, and he isnt a behaviourist, then what is he?


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

How did she explain this approach? Sounds like she was counter conditioning.

This is a good explanation:
YouTube - Jack Russell Terrier (JRT) Aggression When Blowing in Face | AskDrYin.com
YouTube - Dog Aggressive for Toenail Trim | AskDrYin.com

A really basic reason why I don't like CMs programs is that no matter how many times they say DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME people will do so anyway (what use is a dog training show if you can't follow the examples, anyway?) and bring their dogs and themselves into danger.
If they follow the examples of a positive trainer like Victoria Stillwell, they might not always get it exactly right, but at least they won't be taking huge risks to their and their dog's health either.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

cutekiaro1 said:


> anybody got any reasons as to why CM dogs are so well behaved. They look happy, healthy and my no means look anyway scared of him.


I'm not so sure about that myself. In one episode I watched for instance when he was taking visitors around his compound, one of his dogs- a pitbull mix type dog ran directly away from him and hid behind a tree, cowering, panting and licking it's lips (calming signal).

There are countless other examples but that one for me was very poignant.

The dog was absolutely terrified


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

ArwenLune said:


> A really basic reason why I don't like CMs programs is that no matter how many times they say DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME people will do so anyway (what use is a dog training show if you can't follow the examples, anyway?) and bring their dogs and themselves into danger.
> 
> If they follow the examples of a positive trainer like Victoria Stillwell, they might not always get it exactly right, but at least they won't be taking huge risks to their and their dog's health either.


completely agree! thats kind of what i was trying to say in my earlier post, which got a bit long!!


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Ive asked this question before, and no one has ever answered me, if CM isnt a trainer, and he isnt a behaviourist, then what is he?


well...a number of things spring to mind...I dont know the answer but my guess:

a canine enthusiast who wants to do good but isn't really qualified to be giving out advice to millions of the unsuspecting public?? 

CM says himself that he trains the 'people' not the dogs...so by his own admission he is not a dog trainer.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> How did she explain this approach? Sounds like she was counter conditioning.


Was that a reply to what I said about Victoria? :huh:
if so I was trying to find the episode on youtube but cant remember the dogs name, if anybody saw it it was a white/brown patch American Bulldog? (I think) the husband was away and he got it to look after his wife!
Ill keep looking


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> Was that a reply to what I said about Victoria? :huh:
> if so I was trying to find the episode on youtube but cant remember the dogs name, if anybody saw it it was a white/brown patch American Bulldog? (I think) the husband was away and he got it to look after his wife!
> Ill keep looking


Was it this one?

YouTube - It's Me or the Dog


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Was it this one?
> 
> YouTube - It's Me or the Dog


yep thats the one how come you found it so easily lol


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

the bit I was talking about was 12m 40sec where he growls and she clicks and treats  surely thats rewarding him for bad behaviour?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> yep thats the one how come you found it so easily lol


My amazing Googling skills


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Just watching that one again now. It was filmed very locally to me, in fact the stooge dogs in the park were provided by a training class I used to go to. And my nearest PAH is on there too.


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## Skyelacey (Jan 23, 2010)

Obviously some people can't read or thought they'd force their opinion onto people who didn't want or ask for it. 

I'm going to look into different methods and go from their,

Thanks.
Skye


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Skyelacey said:


> Obviously some people can't read or thought they'd force their opinion onto people who didn't want or ask for it.
> 
> I'm going to look into different methods and go from their,
> 
> ...


well actually, if you look on the first page of your thread i thought i did give you some good advice - in your absence people have been discussing the theme and it is what is called a 'debate' - that's what generally happens on forums im afraid, so dont take it personally.

also if you read through, the different peoples comments are from a range of people who are pro and against CM, so it gives you a good idea of why people are for and against him and so will hopefully give you some more info to base your decision on.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

Skyelacey said:


> Obviously some people can't read or thought they'd force their opinion onto people who didn't want or ask for it.
> 
> I'm going to look into different methods and go from their,
> 
> ...


Oh dear we may have gone a bit off the subject but you have to realise that everybody has different opinions on the best way to train dogs, some people take hints from different trainers and put them together to best suite themselves. If you read this whole thread you will see that everybody has given their own opinion and most have been contradicted by others who also put their opinion forward. Nobody is wrong its just what best suits every individual.

Please dont take it so personal you asked and you got


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## Skyelacey (Jan 23, 2010)

I appreciate that people have different opinions and such, and i appreciate the helpful advice that some people have offered.

Thanks for everyones contributions to the thread.
Think i'll leave it at that.

Skye x


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> well actually, if you look on the first page of your thread i thought i did give you some good advice - in your absence people have been discussing the theme and it is what is called a 'debate' - that's what generally happens on forums im afraid, so dont take it personally.
> 
> also if you read through, the different peoples comments are from a range of people who are pro and against CM, so it gives you a good idea of why people are for and against him and so will hopefully give you some more info to base your decision on.


also if you read through, the different peoples comments are from a range of people who are pro and against CM

And middle of the road peeps. I still have no clue what i am on about lol:laugh::crazy:


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

GillyR said:


> katiefranke said:
> 
> 
> > also if you read through, the different peoples comments are from a range of people who are pro and against CM
> ...


:lol: yeah that too, you know what I mean - a wide range of people...even the crazies!


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

haha funny how things get hot in here so quick! 

we all love dogs, we all want the best for them, and we are individuals who can have opinions and assesments of our own. 
we wouldnt even BE here talking about this if we didnt love our dogs, so lets remember the common thread that we all share ok?


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

Corinthian said:


> I could give any joker on the street a couple of books and a few DVDs and if they studied them, they would possess far more knowledge about dogs abd training than Millan ever will.


yeah, i do see your point. anyone can claim to be an expert i guess.

IMO though, a few books and movies cannot replace a lifetime of living/working with and observing first hand.

like i said, just my opin.


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## TobyK9 (Feb 5, 2010)

I absolutley love Cesar Millan 

I love watching The dog whisperer,

but I don't follow his methods 

I became one of the converted, I still think he is great because he is a dog lover and he rescues dogs and he protects them and works with him in his own way. Some say he uses shock collars but he uses vibration collars :huh:

I follow Victoria Stillwell :001_tt1: :001_tt1:and I think she trains dogs or something? 

lol, no, seriously, I think her methods are a mix of Cesars (mainly in new series, I've noticed a change) and positive reward, but works well, I've gone for the positive reward and such like, works well for me, and I get to watch Vicky on TV haha!!!


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

yah tobyk ive noticed a change too. i actually never saw an older epi for quite some time that i was watching and when i finally saw one i was like whoa.....hes different.
it seemed in the older ones he was more of charge in with guns blazing! but now i get the feeling that he takes his time and works methodically.
and ive noticed he does more proactive work rather than just "taming the beast" like he did in the past.


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## TobyK9 (Feb 5, 2010)

cesar speaks of and approaches the situation far differently, without a doubt, in one new episode he used a vibration collar and my God, did he make sure everyone knew it was a vibration collar and not a shock collar., It's almost as if the antis who can't bare him to be succesful have had an influence.

Anyway, not that I care, not getting involved in that one lol

EDIT; I just wanted to declare my love for Vicky :001_tt1:


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

see??! were all just human. he makes mistakes and misjudgements like all of us, and then later regrets and tries to make it right.
why dont we hate surgeons?? they hurt plenty of people in their quest to help.....

any time you try and fix something youre going to run the risk of breaking it. its a fact of life. whether it be cars, people, or dogs, humans will make mistakes and cause pain. 
CM is no worse of a human than any of us.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Surgeons are not on TV and do not need a disclaimer.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

true, theyre not on tv. but disclaimer? for sure. its about 858204 pages long and they expect you to read it all the morning of :huh:


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## TobyK9 (Feb 5, 2010)

kello82 said:


> CM is no worse of a human than any of us.


absolutley, I still stand by what I said that I love watching his programme and I think he's a great person,

I've always believed that there are 4 influences here on training...

UK - US

Male - Female

Example, CM is US, (ok, he's from SM, but hey) and my fancy woman is UK

2 very very different methods and thinking, and what happens? most UK owners hate CM but find positive reward methods by VS acceptable.

you're never in a million years going to get me to put an example for m/f, but you know what I'm saying about the differences.

Anyway, that's from my observations, enough said lol,

all have their opinions and I've seen this CM one done loads of times, at the end of the day, the people that hate him will still hate him, the people that like him, will still like him. It'll never change and I don't think reason even comes into it anymore.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

kello82 said:


> IMO though, a few books and movies cannot replace a lifetime of living/working with and observing first hand.


Maybe not with others, with Millan yes.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

TobyK9 said:


> cesar speaks of and approaches the situation far differently, without a doubt, in one new episode he used a vibration collar and my God, did he make sure everyone knew it was a vibration collar and not a shock collar., It's almost as if the antis who can't bare him to be succesful have had an influence.


Are the new episodes airing on UK's Sky? From what I've seen Millan has not changed what he's doing, but he is selling it slightly differently. The producers seem to be aware of the criticism and on several occasions Millan has said things that seem to be specifically aimed at them. But then he goes on to jab or pin or force the dog in some manner. So the changes, afaic, are superficial.


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## TobyK9 (Feb 5, 2010)

Corinthian said:


> Are the new episodes airing on UK's Sky? From what I've seen Millan has not changed what he's doing, but he is selling it slightly differently. The producers seem to be aware of the criticism and on several occasions Millan has said things that seem to be specifically aimed at them. But then he goes on to jab or pin or force the dog in some manner. So the changes, afaic, are superficial.


lol, yes, and you don't need to tell me, I was just being diplomatic, back over to you guys....have fun, I just follow my lover vicky :001_tt1:


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

TobyK9 said:


> absolutley, I still stand by what I said that I love watching his programme and I think he's a great person,
> 
> I've always believed that there are 4 influences here on training...
> 
> ...


yes i definitly agree with you here, cultural differences DEF come into play.

ever see the show "taboo" on natgeo? it is truly amazing, it shows the practices and ways of life of other cultures that just seem SO horrible, even abusive, to western societies like ours. yet to them, it is the norm.
no one is right or wrong, its just a manner of each culture living the way it needs to in order to function. its hard not to make judgments about societies that put their 6 year old children to work in mines, i mean it just seems so inhumane to us.
like i said, no right or wrong either way. just people trying to make it in this world.

and like you said, the UK's general preference differs from the US and to add to that, CM grew up in mexico!! so it just adds another layer of cultural way of life on top.
out on the ranches in mexico, im sure no one is worried about political correctness, you know?? their dogs need to be physically and emotionally healthy and if making that happen takes some rough handling, well so be it, its their way of life.

its like getting a vaccine. it sucks, it hurts, but it must be done for the health of you and your family. and when kids scream and cry and have a tantrum at the doctor?? they arent hurt physically/emotionally, its all better in 10 minutes, right? i think a lot of the "crying" from dogs on the show is just doggies tantrums, cause theyre getting a metaphorical vaccine and they dont understand that it will help them and they arent getting their way!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Probably because they live in a pack, are handled by staff rather than him and pretty much manage themselves.
> 
> Ive asked this question before, and no one has ever answered me, if CM isnt a trainer, and he isnt a behaviourist, then what is he?


*The answer to your question which I have said on here many times is,Cesar rehabilatates (sp) dogs.He has stated many times he does NOT train dogs..If all the people slagging him actualy watched the guy then they would know this.*


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I watch It's Me or the Dog and The Dog Whisperer. No offence to her, but Victoria wouldn't get anywhere with a lot of dogs I know . I like how Cesar deals with dog on dog aggression. Dogs to pin other dogs down. I've watched it in my own house with my own eyes. Some dogs are dominant over other dogs. I've never seen Cesar hurt a dog - if you heard Harley when the back door shuts on him, you'd think he was in severe pain - he's not he just doesn't like it lol! Positive reinforcement is great for training dogs i think - praise, toys, treats. CM has spent his whole life with dogs . He clearly loves dogs very much, and doesn't say that every single dog is dominant lmao. His own dogs are fantastic and that doesn't just come from anywhere . Nicole x


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## riffraffdeefer (Jul 11, 2008)

In my opinion cesar milan is the best dog trainer in the world.
He isnt a bully he snappes a dog out of what they are doing like a domiant dog would bite a lower member.
If you want to watch something funny watch 'Its me or the dog'
Cesar rarely uses food to teach a dog victoria uses treats for everthing.
What dog isnt going to do something for some cooked chicken!
I would like to see her train some of the dogs cesar trains in 1 day!
and she is surposed to be a top dog trainer.
Also remember he deals with far more agressive dogs that what we have over here if you watch the epoisode with the 2 female pitbulls you will no what I mean.
He doesn't TRAIN dogs anyway he reablitates them!
I have always looked up to cesar milan and always will should read his books they are amazing.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i just cant think of one good reason why someone would choose methods which hurt the dog, scare the dog, force the dog into things instead of kind methods and treat training.... 

But maybe there are those who see their dogs as companions and those who see their dogs as some sort of competition and want to rule their dog rather than guide it ... 

Why would someone choose forcefull methods to kind methods which are more effective and longer lasting? 

Is it the effort needing to be put in? Is it the time aspect? What is it? I really would like to know...

But also there are alot of people out there thinking in a way like "the dog has to listen to me because im the boss" ... and dont want their dog listen to them because the dog wants to and gets something as a reward... its a human ego issue i suspect. :huh:


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Wheee, here we go again. CMs style of 'training' is NOT in any way alike to a vaccination. Once you go in for the alpha bullshit, you have to reinforce ALL the time that you're on top of the pile.

Here's an essay by someone who used to use similar methods (virtually ever dog trainer who started over 15 years ago did) 
The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan

And this is a repost that will no doubt be completely ignored by the devoted followers...



> imagine you have an office job. It's not particularly unpleasant, but it's not what you'd do for fun.
> 
> Situation 1:
> You are not paid or rewarded for your work, but you are threatened by your boss with bodily harm to make you go and do your work.
> ...


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*it never ceases to amaze me how its never mentioned about how many dogs Cesar has saved.I guess its easyier to find fault..How about the good work he has done for the dogs in puppy farms,or the lost dogs after hurricane catrina? Oh and daddy and daddy junior look so bullied.NOT.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *it never ceases to amaze me how its never mentioned about how many dogs Cesar has saved.I guess its easyier to find fault..How about the good work he has done for the dogs in puppy farms,or the lost dogs after hurricane catrina? Oh and daddy and daddy junior look so bullied.NOT.*


he might have done some good things and yeah, he does give the pitbulls a good image BUT that is not a justification to use those methods on dogs when there are kinder and more effective methods out there.

And he deals mostly with normal house dogs with normal problems and makes them out to be some sort of monsters needing to be pinned etc... are they being saved? From what? Being pts because one dislikes tissues? Or one refuses to take a tablet forced in his face?

The real red zone dogs that being shown saved on tv but do we know for sure what happens to them now and where they are??? Are they really saved?
And what about those dogs who might have developed issues cause of his methods which caused more problems (biting the owner etc) which might have been pts or rehomed because of him? They dont count?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> he might have done some good things and yeah, he does give the pitbulls a good image BUT that is not a justification to use those methods on dogs when there are kinder and more effective methods out there.
> 
> And he deals mostly with normal house dogs with normal problems and makes them out to be some sort of monsters needing to be pinned etc... are they being saved? From what? Being pts because one dislikes tissues? Or one refuses to take a tablet forced in his face?
> 
> ...


*lol Natik you and i will never agree on this subject.As i've stated before what you and others see and interprete(sp) as cruel i dont see..You yourself in this post are asking questions ie. the ones i've high lighted.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> *lol Natik you and i will never agree on this subject.As i've stated before what you and others see and interprete(sp) as cruel i dont see..You yourself in this post are asking questions ie. the ones i've high lighted.*


Thats why i comment on his "reha" methods and the possible consequences i experienced in the real life , rather than what he might have saved or not.

People state he rehabilitated so many dogs and he saved them from being pts... how do they know? There aint any follow ups like a year later or so ...


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## Skyelacey (Jan 23, 2010)

Thanks again for all your comments good and bad. It's been quite interesting reading through everything and what other teachers there are 

Skye x


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## riffraffdeefer (Jul 11, 2008)

Natik said:


> i just cant think of one good reason why someone would choose methods which hurt the dog, scare the dog, force the dog into things instead of kind methods and treat training....
> 
> But maybe there are those who see their dogs as companions and those who see their dogs as some sort of competition and want to rule their dog rather than guide it ...
> 
> ...


Cesar never hurts the dogs he reabilitates!
Treat training doesn't always work, If 2 dogs want to kill eachover in what way is a treat going to solve this?
I have 4 dogs 2 male staffys a male rottweiler and a female irish staff.
I have never used 'TREATS' to train them.
You don't need treats to train a dog the dog is doing wat you say for the food not for you!
Everybody has there own opinion but iv never done it and all mine can go off lead at parks woods etc get on fine with dogs all 4 of them together!
Also 2 of the males arnt even neutered! 
I have learnt all my basic methods from watching cesar milan and i dont think I'v done too bad its actually quite nice when you call your dog back and they don't expect a treat!
They just do it out of love and respect.
thanks


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## riffraffdeefer (Jul 11, 2008)

CEASAR MILAN IS A LEGEND!
AND for all you haters could we keep 40 dogs under control????
He can't be that bad.
Long live cesar!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> Thats why i comment on his "reha" methods and the possible consequences i experienced in the real life , rather than what he might have saved or not.
> 
> People state he rehabilitated so many dogs and he saved them from being pts... how do they know? There aint any follow ups like a year later or so ...


*Ah now i will ask you,why would you not believe the dogs live a good life,but you "seem" to assume they end up being worse off.*


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Because his methods suppress unwanted behaviour, and suppressing behaviour means that the urge/motivation for the behaviour is not gone, just not expressed. Which means it's likely to resurface at some point, either the same behaviour or another expression of it. 

Remember the dog that chased the cat and got 'treated' with a shock collar? Do you think that is a problem forever solved? The motivation is still there, but fear of pain holds back the behaviour. And living beings have a tendency to suddenly and unpredictably overcome such fears.

Say, you love chocolate. I put a bowl of chocolates on the table, but correct you every time you want to get a chocolate. I might verbally correct you, and if that doesn't help, smack your hand. 
Are you going to leave that chocolate alone forever? Or will you find a way to sneak some anyway, either when my attention is elsewhere or because you tell me to **** off with my stupid corrections and hand smacking? The desire (for chocolate) is not gone just because I forbid you to express the behaviour (of having a choccie)!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ArwenLune said:


> Because his methods suppress unwanted behaviour, and suppressing behaviour means that the urge/motivation for the behaviour is not gone, just not expressed. Which means it's likely to resurface at some point, either the same behaviour or another expression of it.
> 
> Remember the dog that chased the cat and got 'treated' with a shock collar? Do you think that is a problem forever solved? The motivation is still there, but fear of pain holds back the behaviour. And living beings have a tendency to suddenly and unpredictably overcome such fears.


*But you don't know that for a fact,you state yourself " it will "probably".*


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> Because his methods suppress unwanted behaviour, and suppressing behaviour means that the urge/motivation for the behaviour is not gone, just not expressed. Which means it's likely to resurface at some point, either the same behaviour or another expression of it.


I quite agree. It also reminds me, lol, of that episode of South Park where Cartman's mom decides to call on the help of CM in order to sort out her son. She soon realises that the fix only works as long as CM is there, as soon as he leaves everything reverts back to how it was before! Hardly scientific, I know, but thought provoking nevertheless. Oddly enough you can no longer view that episode at South Park Studios UK and Ireland -. Now, I wonder why?


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *But you don't know that for a fact,you state yourself " it will "probably".*


Don't you think the risk is enough, especially with dangerous behaviour, to search for methods that change the motivation, not just suppress the behaviour?

Those methods exist, they are friendlier for the dog AND safer for the handler, AND are much more likely to have good, lasting results.

What could possibly be the reason not to use those, instead?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ArwenLune said:


> Don't you think the risk is enough, especially with dangerous behaviour, to search for methods that change the motivation, not just suppress the behaviour?
> 
> Those methods exist, they are friendlier for the dog AND safer for the handler, AND are much more likely to have good, lasting results.
> 
> What could possibly be the reason not to use those, instead?


*Its down to personal choice,plain and simple.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Its down to personal choice,plain and simple.*


i agree its personal choice, but why would someone want take the risk when there are methods which work effectively and kind and havent those risks attached to them?


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Its down to personal choice,plain and simple.*


Which is why I don't think I could ever associate with someone who actively chose CMs methods over kinder ones.

Why would a compassionate person choose them?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

There's none so blind as the gullible who have never actually studied either canine behaviour or indeed, different methods of dog training much less learned how a dog learns and why different problems occur.  All hail the mighty Cesar who has alpha rolled, shocked and jabbed his way into peoples hearts and minds of those who do not know, or indeed want to know any better. 

I learned the rough methods of training dogs from Barbara Woodhouse programmes and books ('Cesars way' before he ever even coined the phrase) 36 years ago and luckily I have evolved my way of training since then, preferring to use my brain to learn better ways of dealing with dogs instead of fawning over the latest celeb like people do now.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> If you want any other options to make your choice, take a look at these too:
> 
> It's Me or the Dog - Episode Guide - Channel 4
> 
> ...


I would also recommend this. I dont know much about CM, but Ive heard his methods are questionable. Victoria Stilwell's methods are sound and usually based on kindness.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *The answer to your question which I have said on here many times is,Cesar rehabilatates (sp) dogs.He has stated many times he does NOT train dogs..If all the people slagging him actualy watched the guy then they would know this.*


*Millan can claim to sprinkle fairy dust on dogs, it still would not be true. He works with dogs and tries to change their behavior - this means he trains (badly) dogs*


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *it never ceases to amaze me how its never mentioned about how many dogs Cesar has saved.I guess its easyier to find fault..How about the good work he has done for the dogs in puppy farms,or the lost dogs after hurricane catrina? Oh and daddy and daddy junior look so bullied.NOT.*


*Most of us can discuss a single issue without muddling it up with irrelevant points. As you see from the thread title "Cesar Millan- Episodes and training", you want to start one called "Cesar Millan - Charity" that's fine, I may even have one or two good things to say about him. It still makes him a lousy trainer.

Millan's work in with Katrina make doesn't him a good trainer any more than Pamela Anderson's work with animals makes her a good actress.

And since you bring it up, I've seen a few episode where the real fallback of Millan's methods show up on Daddy and Junior. Yes, they are bullied.*


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

i prefer VS to CM.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Oxford English Dictionary:
*train*
 verb 1 teach (a person or animal) a particular skill or type of behaviour through regular practice and instruction. 2 be taught in such a way.​
*rehabilitate*
 verb 1 restore to health or normal life by* training* and therapy after imprisonment, addiction, or illness.​
*trainer*
 noun 1 a person who trains people or animals.​
AskOxford: Free online dictionary resources from Oxford University Press


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

riffraffdeefer said:


> AND for all you haters could we keep 40 dogs under control????


Large groups like that are self organizing. Millan is not doing anything. It's so easy to impress people when they don't know what's really going on.

Difference between Millan's fans and Millan's detractors: His detractors have looked beyond the act. His fan's even when we point it out, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm honestly not being sarcastic or anything here lol - but can someone show me a case where Cesar has been took things too far, verging on cruelty? I haven't seen all of his episodes and i'm starting to doubt him a bit lol. I just would like to see it with my own eyes really. I don't think so many people could not like his techniques without reason ..


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

I can't find a link for the video with Shadow, where he kicks the dog to provoke a reaction, then basically pulls it off the ground with a choking collar until it stops fighting (for its life!) because it can't get any air. Oh, and then he still claims the dog is dominant... Perhaps someone else has the link to that handy.

One of the things about the program is that the voiceover and his explanation can sound very convincing, while they sometimes have nothing to do with what's actually happening.

Have a good read about calming signals - Turid Rugaas is a well-known expert on this. Calming Signals Community

Now when you watch an episode of the DW, *turn off the sound* and really look at the dogs that Millan claims are dominant. A lot of the time, they are showing calming signs left, right and centre, which he consistently ignores (or doesn't see? I guess they don't fit with his world-view so they don't exist to him..)


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

ArwenLune said:


> I can't find a link for the video with Shadow, where he kicks the dog to provoke a reaction, then basically pulls it off the ground with a choking collar until it stops fighting (for its life!) because it can't get any air. Oh, and then he still claims the dog is dominant... Perhaps someone else has the link to that handy.
> 
> One of the things about the program is that the voiceover and his explanation can sound very convincing, while they sometimes have nothing to do with what's actually happening.
> 
> ...


Thank you . I'm gony read that the now - i just feel a bit uncomfortable the more i read about him on here.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Thought this might be interesting as well:

If You're Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be Too, Says Veterinary Study


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Ive asked this question before, and no one has ever answered me, if CM isnt a trainer, and he isnt a behaviourist, then what is he?


* a former illegal alien 
* a man who grew-up in rural Mexico, with an approx 9th-grade education 
* an odd-jobs teenager, who was hired by 2 groomers to sweep the shop 
* they discovered he was *more muscular, more confrontational, and more intimidating to dogs who struggled during grooming - so Guess Who* got to do the difficult dogs?

he became a *handler* by handling dogs under severe stress - he did not become a TRAINER by TEACHing dogs to perform apropos behaviors, but a *handler* by *arguing* with dogs who were not co-operating, in a stressful situation.

if all U have is a hammer - everything looks like a nail. 

he began working on his own, outside the shop, and one of his first-clients staked him to an ESL-tutor because his English was so poor, she could not understand him - he owes a tremendous debt of gratitude to her, and to the other wealthy clients who referred him, promoted and hired him.

then (this being Los Angeles, after all...) he hired an agent - 
who supposedly came-up with the DW-label, and when Cesar promoted himself to Natl-Geo using promo-materiel this man had created (and was hired for a 30-min, non-Prime slot), his former agent sued CM (i think it included theft of intellectual property, failure to pay his commission, and other contractual violations). 
the lawsuit was settled out of court.

the TERM ____-whisperer, BTW, has been around for centuries - and has zero to do with confrontation, dominance, etc. :nonod: very sad, that.

with Natl-Geo as a promotional backer, he has become a one-man industry, and a millionaire.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> ...It also reminds me :lol: of that episode of South Park where Cartman's mom decides to call on the help of CM... to sort out her son. She soon realises that the fix only works as long as CM is there, as soon as he leaves everything reverts back to how it was before! Hardly scientific, I know, but thought provoking nevertheless. Oddly enough you can no longer view that episode at South Park Studios UK and Ireland -. Now, I wonder why?


i dunno why, but heres a source -  its from Season 10, the episode is *Tsst!* 
South Park Episode Player

this search splits it into chapters - South Park Studios UK and Ireland -

theres also http://tinyurl.com/ybtecd5

and http://tinyurl.com/y9z79ub 
enjoy, :thumbup: 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> I saw an episode the other day (of) *its me or the dog* - the dog was very agressive to strangers coming in the home but fine outside (when) off-lead. (Victoria Stilwell) distracted the dog with food, 'fine', but (the dog) *growled at someone coming in(to) the house* and she said *good boy! come here, then...* and gave him a treat


hey, kiaro! :--) 
* i cannot watch the clip - Sky-4 does not allow it to play in the USA.*
if this is the episode that i am thinking of... 
_the dog was a white American Bulldog, the owners were a young couple, he was in the Armed Forces, and she liked having the dog around as *protection* when alone. _

unfortunately, neither hubby nor wife had a clue about socializing guarding breeds, and this dog was terrified of strangers; 
outside, when off-leash, he could evade + escape them; INside, he felt trapped, and acted-out aggressively, as this had worked 
very well for him. (intimidated + threatened strangers or non-family left... Dog was happy. )

*DS/CC is a classical B-Mod technique*, and it uses Pavlov when counter-conditioning a formerly Bad-Thing (scary or aversive or arousing or confrontational trigger), to make that trigger into a Good-Thing - thus altering the behavior, by changing the emotional association. 
*Pavlov is non-contingent - * we are simply making the clear association, if A then B... 
if strangers, then food; very stark, very very simple. E-Z to grasp. 
*the dog does NOTHING to earn pleasurable things; they are presented Beside the trigger, to alter the emotional response.*

also, the dog needs sufficient *distance* to feel comfortable, and learn the new association - to change the emotional tag. 
dogs, just like ppl, cannot learn under intense high-stress - which is where *flooding* fails; as well as being emotionally overwhelming, flooding is a lousy way to attempt to teach any new-behavior.  (CM is notorious for flooding.)

cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> CMs methods suppress unwanted behaviour, and suppressing behaviour means that the urge/motivation for the behaviour is not gone, just not expressed... it's likely to resurface at some point, either the same behaviour or another expression of it.
> ...[snip]...
> Say, you love chocolate. I put a bowl of chocolates on the table, but... every time you want to get a chocolate... I might verbally correct you, and if that doesn't help, smack your hand.
> *Are you going to leave that chocolate alone forever?* Or will you find a way to sneak some anyway, either when my attention is elsewhere or because you tell me to **** off with my stupid corrections and hand smacking? The desire (for chocolate) is not gone just because I forbid you to express the behaviour (of having a choccie)!


rep for that! :lol: i am a choc-addict... No way U could make me stop eating chocs!


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## tafwoc (Nov 12, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> Say, you love chocolate. I put a bowl of chocolates on the table, but correct you every time you want to get a chocolate. I might verbally correct you, and if that doesn't help, smack your hand.
> Are you going to leave that chocolate alone forever? Or will you find a way to sneak some anyway, either when my attention is elsewhere or because you tell me to **** off with my stupid corrections and hand smacking? The desire (for chocolate) is not gone just because I forbid you to express the behaviour (of having a choccie)!


I love chocolate, but i think this would work on me! im not talking about dogs now, i need someone to do this to me! So i stop eating all the damn chocolate


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> rep for that! :lol: i am a choc-addict... No way U could make me stop eating chocs!


Hmmmmmm. An electric shock collar?

Bet that would stop you.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

tafwoc said:


> I love chocolate, but i think this would work on me! im not talking about dogs now, i need someone to do this to me! So i stop eating all the damn chocolate


But it wouldn't make you stop WANTING chocolate. In fact, I'd bet you'd become a bit obsessed with it. One day, when the aversive pressure is gone, you'll go for it anyway. And probably gorge yourself.

If there was something super nice (and immediate) that you'd be given every time you went past the chocolate bowl and ignored it, I'd bet that after a while you would think about the chocolate a whole lot less, and maybe even stop being interested in it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Hmmmmmm. An electric shock collar?
> Bet that would stop you (eating chocs).


only if i was wearing the collar :lol: or someone was there to push the button... or i could not escape surveillance to slip into a shop, and consume my ill-gotten goods in the ladies-room, and wash my hands to eliminate the evidence...  or order chocs over the Net to be delivered in a box marked BOOKS :lol: or hire someone to buy chocs for me, and keep them at THEIR house...  and i eat them there, or they meet me with the contraband... etc.

 there are many things i will give-up, temporarily or even permanently - Not chocolate!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Corinthian said:


> Large groups like that are self organizing. Millan is not doing anything. It's so easy to impress people when they don't know what's really going on.
> 
> Difference between Millan's fans and Millan's detractors: His detractors have looked beyond the act. His fan's even when we point it out, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain


Absolutely. I recall going on several large, sponsered dog walks (when I was able to walk long distance!) and once we got to areas where it was *safe* to allow off lead running, we would set loose all the dogs, some of which were known dog aggressive (so they were muzzled out of common sense and safety) and they all got along fine with no fights or aggression, because we kept walking and any dogs who did start quarrelling found themselves interrupted by my first collie, Jasper who always appointed himself as 'Sergeant Dogge' and would simply put himself between the arguing dogs very calmly and get them to sniff the ground and wander off with him instead.  Turid Rugaas learned about dog behaviour from observing dogs communicating with each other - so did I and then I learned more from learning from her experiences! 

Sadly I concur with your latter statement also Corinthian but then again, we who have actually gone out into our communities and helped people with 'red', 'blue' and 'yellow' zone dogs etc for one, two or three decades know diddlysquat compared to tv celebrity fans do we? Obviously had it wrong all this time. Ah well. 



leashedForLife said:


> * a former illegal alien
> * a man who grew-up in rural Mexico, with an approx 9th-grade education
> * an odd-jobs teenager, who was hired by 2 groomers to sweep the shop
> * they discovered he was *more muscular, more confrontational, and more intimidating to dogs who struggled during grooming - so Guess Who* got to do the difficult dogs?
> ...


No no no Terry! He has magical qualities and a unique gift that our many years of studying and working with many problem dogs including the human and/or dog aggressive ones cannot compare with! We are wrong Terry. We should have been manhandling, dragging and stringing up dogs into submission all of these years not trying to educate ourselves into actually learning how dogs learn and the real reasons why they do what they do etc! :nonod: We got it all wrong my friend. :blush:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> No no no Terry! He has *magical qualities* and a *unique gift* that our many years of studying and working with many problem dogs including the human and/or dog aggressive ones cannot compare with!


:lol: :thumbup: :lol: mute with laughter, tears rolling down... :lol: :001_tt2:



CarolineH said:


> We are wrong Terry. We should have been manhandling, dragging and stringing-up dogs into submission
> all of these years... not trying to educate ourselves into actually learning how dogs learn and the real reasons
> why they do what they do etc! :nonod: We got it all wrong my friend. :blush:


~ whew...~ :laugh: well then, i spoze i am just as wrong as McConnell, Rugas, Geller, Dunbar, Miller, White, and all their kin.  thats fine, 
i am in good company, we can all be wrong-headed and happy together. :thumbsup:

no worries, mate...  we is ALL wrong... :huh: but the dogs are happy, and they do learn, and they do improve... 
we gotta be doing *some*thing right. 

cheers, and thanks for the laughs! :thumbup: 
--- terry


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Two of the many interesting, brilliant posts by Kevin Myers over at dogloversdigest.com: here and here


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> there are many things i will give-up, temporarily or even permanently - Not chocolate!


Give me half an hour away from your owners, a shock collar, a decent set of teeth, some good lawyers, and I can guarantee not only will you never eat chocolate again, but you will wet yourself the moment you smell it....


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

lol i dont think he has a magical gift....im not that crazy 

i think he approached a problem from a different angle and thats what i appreciate.
does that mean i have a an ego problem? oh right....im on this forum looking for ways to abuse animals!! THAT MUST BE IT?!
as ive said before DUH we all deeply care for our dogs or else we wouldnt be here on this forum!!!!!

so i dont see where questioning someones devotion to their pets comes into play here.

so.....that said, i do enjoy talking about thios subject with you lot because it IS controversial which makes for a great discussion and debate. 

but PLEASE can we not question eachother's integrity when it comes to owning a pet?!?! is it impossible to be civil??

lets remove the sterotypes that we have... the "pros" are NOT a bunch of brainless, blind, magic believing, pet abusers. and the "antis" are NOT a load of jealous haters!!

we are just people, who love our pets and want to care for them the best we can, and we have different opinions and ways of interpreting a controversial program.

its not a huge deal. were adults, lets act like it and remember that we are here becuase we freakin love dogs!!

ok.

resume......


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Oh well once gain i see this thread has gone into the gutter.Before people voice their childish thoughts they should take a step back and look at their own actions.*


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> Oh well once gain i see this thread has gone into the gutter.Before people voice their childish thoughts they should take a step back and look at their own actions.


Janice, Luke 6:42


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Corinthian said:


> Janice, Luke 6:42


*lol was that aimed at me?*


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i dunno why, but heres a source -  its from Season 10, the episode is *Tsst!*
> South Park Episode Player
> 
> this search splits it into chapters - South Park Studios UK and Ireland -
> ...


Thanks, Terry! Unfortunately the South Park links still lead to this message: _Due to pre-existing contractual obligations, we are unable to show this episode at this time. _ Looks like CM's legal thugs have been at it again!

Let's see, National Geographic have removed many DW clips from their website, a lot of the pertinent YouTube links to the DW have also been taken down; now it seems that anything with the slightest hint of critical commentary is going to suffer the same fate. It kind of makes you wonder if this guy's got something to hide?!

Never mind though, I made up for all that by watching this! Cesar Millan: Marriage Counselor, Ep. 1 (RAGE) - Video


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> Thanks, Terry! Unfortunately the South Park links still lead to this message: _Due to pre-existing contractual obligations, we are unable to show this episode at this time. _ Looks like CM's legal thugs have been at it again!
> 
> Let's see, National Geographic have removed many DW clips from their website, a lot of the pertinent YouTube links to the DW have also been taken down; now it seems that anything with the slightest hint of critical commentary is going to suffer the same fate. It kind of makes you wonder if this guy's got something to hide?!


It's defensive dominant behaviour isn't it?  Removing all clips that have incurred criticism from experts and non-experts alike means that the latter and former are all lying and that it never happened.


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I'm honestly not being sarcastic or anything here lol - but can someone show me a case where Cesar has been took things too far, verging on cruelty? I haven't seen all of his episodes and i'm starting to doubt him a bit lol. I just would like to see it with my own eyes really. I don't think so many people could not like his techniques without reason ..


Many of the links to video clips which display CMs unadulterated cruelty have been removed from YouTube, etc.

Here are a couple which have survived:

CM strangling a dog: http://tinyurl.com/ylnq4mk Youll need to have QuickTime installed to be able to view this.

CMs approach to aggression: YouTube - Imprisoned Dog

Both of these clips are very distressing. But if you do watch them make sure that you have the volume turned down, that way you avoid the emotionally persuasive use of dramatic music, as well as CMs facile narration. If you can bring yourself to watch them again, turn the volume up and listen to how youre being manipulated.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Inkdog said:


> Never mind though, I made up for all that by watching this! Cesar Millan: Marriage Counselor, Ep. 1 (RAGE) - Video


Haha. Sadly, considering that some people are talking about applying his techniques to raising their children, not all *that* far-fetched..


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> ...the South Park links still lead to this message: _Due to pre-existing contractual obligations, we are unable to show this episode at this time. _ Looks like CM's legal thugs have been at it again!
> ...Natl-Geo have removed many DW-clips from their website, (many) pertinent YouTube links to the DW have also been taken down; now it seems that anything with the slightest hint of critical commentary is going to suffer the same fate. It kind of makes you wonder if this guy's got something to hide?!


 WoW, inky!  
then it must be geographic - as i can still watch any of em.

i could not use the link to Its-Me-Or-The-Dog, posted yesterday (with the fear-aggro dog indoors/ fine off-leash outdoors) 
cuz Sky-4 said that i am not allowed. :nonod: but that is copyright stuff - not (as this seems to be) a temporary censorship.

very disappointing, and yeah - 
if somebody feels *"Tsst!*, U-Tube, et al are so threatening, thats an indicator to me; dogs who are confident do not react to non-threats. *dogs who are anxious get defensive over all sorts of non-threats, agitating themselves + snarling over...*_ nothing at all..._

another defensive-display, eh? disappointed, 
--- terry


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

When you get regional restrictions like that. Look up 'youtube proxies"
You'll get sites like this
https://www.zbypass.info/

be careful though, I would never used them for anything that needed a password or to download stuff.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> It's defensive dominant behaviour isn't it?  Removing all clips that have incurred criticism from experts and non-experts alike means that the latter and former are all lying and that it never happened.


 i dunno about dominant, caro -  but defensive? 
fer sure...

it reminds me of some eejits younger than myself who *believe* that the Nazi holocaust never really happened - all those stories of intellectuals spirited away? theft, wholesale murder, brutal oppression? weird notions of racial-purity...

(hoarse whisper) its all just a gigantic conspiracy. 
_yeah, sure, whatever U say..._ :huh:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i have seen the cesar millan episode on south park....

tssst tssst tssst dominant tssst tssst tssst aggressive dominant tsst tssst lol

The most truthfull comment in it was "thank u cesar, i lost my best friend today"


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i dunno about dominant, caro -  but defensive?
> fer sure...
> 
> it reminds me of some eejits younger than myself who *believe* that the Nazi holocaust never really happened - all those stories of intellectuals spirited away? theft, wholesale murder, brutal oppression? weird notions of racial-purity...
> ...


Dinosaurs and prehistoric man never existed either according to some either and evolution is a 'big lie'.  There is still a *Flat Earth Society* as well with an active membership! 

So people being taken in by flashy promotion of a celebrity 'trainer' despite his lack of knowledge in basic canine behaviour and archaic methods is nothing I suppose?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I'm honestly not being sarcastic or anything here lol - but can someone show me a case where Cesar has been took things too far, verging on cruelty? I haven't seen all of his episodes and i'm starting to doubt him a bit lol. I just would like to see it with my own eyes really. I don't think so many people could not like his techniques without reason ..


Hi. It's not that there r so many people who are anti CM, it is just people who do like him can't be bothered getting into slanging matches about it. There have been loads and loads of posts on cm and they all end up the same way. Now days we stay out of it. The reason he gets such a reaction is because he is so successful.

Some may be critical of where he came from. Personally I don't give a damm that he came from a poor farm in Mexico. He was not fortunate enough to go to university and get himself a posh education. Instead he observed dogs all his life, in rural locations, as packs. Bit of snobbery if u ask me.

If he was cruel then he would not be so successful. Unless he has this gift of brain washing the majority of the population. Do u really think he would be allowed to promote in the uk if his methods were cruel? Of course not!

Don't be led into thinking that he is a cruel person who believes allsohs problems are because of dominance, because it's nit true. U won't find any of the anti camp posting episodes where he has used treats or only positive methods on dogs. Why? Because they would rather focus on what they perceive as negative.

Every dog is different and there r many ways to train a dog. Dogs r physical with each other, I don't have a problem with being physical with them. - if done in the right way!

As the owner of 3 problematic rescue dogs, his methods have been a huge help in their rehabilitation.

Please don't think that the forum is full if people who think he is cruel, it's just most of us don't bother posting anymore.

Finally, u will have seen he has a pack of between 30-40 dogs which he successfully manages, with few problems. You don't achieve this by chance. He understands dogs and packs and this is why he has success. The anti CM camp will have u believing it is his staff who manage this. Firstly, they learn off of him and implement his methods. Secondly, before he became famous he began with a pack of 12 rottweilers. Luck again I suppose

the proof is in the pudding and this is why people don't like him


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> If he was cruel then he would not be so successful. Unless he has this gift of brain washing the majority of the population. Do u really think he would be allowed to promote in the uk if his methods were cruel? Of course not!


A quick search brings up a huge list of organisations that have spoken out against his methods. Please read this list and consider, really think about - the many thousand vets, canine behaviourists, animal welfare professionals, and other members of these organisations with their MANY collective years of study, training and experience. If these people ALL say 'hey, we shouldn't be doing this, there are better ways' - how can you dismiss that?


The Blue Cross
The Dogs Trust
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals - needs no explanation. It's in the name. 
The World Society for the Protection of Animals- the world's largest alliance of humane societies and animal protection organisations, representing over 1000 member societies in more than 150 countries.


British Veterinary Association
British Small Animal Veterinary Association (BSAVA)
The Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour (ASAB) - the leading professional society in the United Kingdom for the study of animal behaviour.
The Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC)
The Kennel Club - the largest organisation in the UK dedicated to dog improving dog health, training and welfare.
The UK Registry of Canine Behaviourists

The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB)
American Humane (the oldest US organization protecting children and animals)
Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers (CCPDT)
The Australian Veterinary Association (AVA)
Various European and National animal welfare organisations

All these organisations have united to put out a statement - find it here.

Welfare in Dog Training

No, he's not been forbidden to do his thing - it often takes a while for regulations to catch up with developments, if they ever will. That doesn't mean that it's automatically okay.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> No, he's not been forbidden to do his thing - it often takes a while for regulations to catch up with developments, if they ever will. That doesn't mean that it's automatically okay.


His 'way' is not so much 'cruelty' as it is a method borne out of ignorance of true canine behaviour. I don't *hate* him. How could I? I don't know him and he is not a terrorist, mass murderer or evil criminal so what reason do I have to hate him?  I don't like his methods but I dare say the man himself is quite charming. :huh: I just do not respect his opinions as they are based on flawed and inadequate knowledge. If he woke up and smelled the coffee, updating his methods and evolving his knowledge then I would respect him for that. But up until now he just carries on hiding behind his management team and posing for the cameras as the best thing to happen to dogs since dog food!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> His 'way' is not so much 'cruelty' as it is a method borne out of ignorance of true canine behaviour. I don't *hate* him. How could I? I don't know him and he is not a terrorist, mass murderer or evil criminal so what reason do I have to hate him?  I don't like his methods but I dare say the man himself is quite charming. :huh: I just do not respect his opinions as they are based on flawed and inadequate knowledge. If he woke up and smelled the coffee, updating his methods and evolving his knowledge then I would respect him for that. But up until now he just carries on hiding behind his management team and posing for the cameras as the best thing to happen to dogs since dog food!


Exactly. I actually think it's a crying shame that he uses the methods he does because he IS charismatic and I truly believe that if he caught up and actually learned about dog behaviour he could be a brilliant trainer. His reactions to dogs are very quick and I suspect his timing with a clicker would be great. He could do SO much good if he wasn't coming from a position of ignorance.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Where did I mention hate? And I agree it's ignorance (though IMO deliberate ignorance) though some of his actions certainly are cruel. 

I have the utmost respect for people like Dr Sophia Yin, who freely admits she used to approach dog training like this, and then discovered better and friendlier methods. If Millan stood up and 'I've updated my knowledge, there are better ways' and changed his methods, I'd be the first to stand up and applaud him. Sadly I think it's unlikely. 

And I don't give a rat's arse about where he's from or how he grew up. However, if you are going to say 'veterinatian behaviourists (with their - what, 10, 12 years? of thorough study) are wrong' then you had better be publishing your own scientific research on what you are basing that conclusion on.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

ArwenLune said:


> Where did I mention hate? And I agree it's ignorance (though IMO deliberate ignorance) though some of his actions certainly are cruel.
> 
> I have the utmost respect for people like Dr Sophia Yin, who freely admits she used to approach dog training like this, and then discovered better and friendlier methods. If Millan stood up and 'I've updated my knowledge, there are better ways' and changed his methods, I'd be the first to stand up and applaud him. Sadly I think it's unlikely.
> 
> And I don't give a rat's arse about where he's from or how he grew up. However, if you are going to say 'veterinatian behaviourists (with their - what, 10, 12 years? of thorough study) are wrong' then you had better be publishing your own scientific research on what you are basing that conclusion on.


Yep, agree with that too.

I've yet to hear a CM fan answer the question "Where are the proper, peer-reviewed studies that support CMs methods, if you can't find any why do you think that is, and why do you STILL insist CM knows better than people who have spent years PROVING that kinder methods work as well as, or better than his? And if it's "only" as well as, WHY would anyone choose harsher methods?"

They can spout on about having the right to choose methods, but they can't/won't ever answer why a compassionate person would not choose kind methods.

Baffling.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*For me this picture of Cesar with daddy says all i need to know.Doen't seem like his methods have had ANY bad side effects on daddy or any of his other dogs.Now how many years has he had daddy? *


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *For me this picture of Cesar with daddy says all i need to know.Doen't seem like his methods have had ANY bad side effects on daddy or any of his other dogs.Now how many years has he had daddy? *


Really? ALL you need to know about someone's knowledge and ability to train dogs humanely can be gleaned by a nicely-posed photo?

Oh dear....


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Really? ALL you need to know about someone's knowledge and ability to train dogs humanely can be gleaned by a nicely-posed photo?
> 
> Oh dear....


haha once again i will say, Cesar does not train dogs.I thought something nice to say would make a change.


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> If he was cruel then he would not be so successful.


I dunno, it worked for _Big Brother_!



> Don't be led into thinking that he is a cruel person who believes allsohs problems are because of dominance, because it's nit true. U won't find any of the anti camp posting episodes where he has used treats or only positive methods on dogs. Why? Because they would rather focus on what they perceive as negative.


Of course you won't find any of the anti-camp posting examples of CM using positive methods: few of us would object to those particular episodes! BUT if CM, or any other dog handler for that matter, displayed even ONE act of cruelty it would surely be too much to tolerate? And CM has _repeatedly _abused some of the animals in his care. I for one cant see any problem in drawing attention to that fact.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

It's a sweet picture.  But it still does not prove that his methods work long term nor that they are excusable in these enlightened times.

Proper trainers and behaviourists rehabilitate dogs using their brains, not their brawn. CM is no doubt a nice person, but he is misguided in his thinking and needs to do a lot more learning if he is to ever be accepted by his peers in the dog world.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> It's a sweet picture.  But it still does not prove that his methods work long term nor that they are excusable in these enlightened times.
> 
> Proper trainers and behaviourists rehabilitate dogs using their brains, not their brawn. CM is no doubt a nice person, but he is misguided in his thinking and needs to do a lot more learning if he is to ever be accepted by his peers in the dog world.


*How long does someone need? he had daddy for years.*


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Having Daddy does not qualify him as a dog expert in the dog worlds eyes. If that were so then I have also had the same 'problem' dogs for years so where's my gong?


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

Another picture:


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Without in any way wanting to declare or compare CM to a dictator, mass murder or other horrific person (and without wanting to Godwinate this topic) -_ loving a dog and being loved back by it says absolutely nothing about your qualities as a person_. Some really horrible people loved their dogs and had their dog's unwavering devotion - Hitler being one of them. Dogs don't make moral judgements about if you're a good or a bad person - isn't that part of the appeal?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


CarolineH said:



Having Daddy does not qualify him as a dog expert in the dog worlds eyes. If that were so then I have also had the same 'problem' dogs for years so where's my gong?

Click to expand...

I too have had dogs for years and i have never had to use anyones ways other than my own to train them.I showed the picture because the subject had been raised about the long term effect his methods would have on a dog.



Inkdog said:



Another picture:









Click to expand...

 what are you trying to say? that the dog is being hurt?*


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

What always amazing me about the Cesar Millan debate is that some of the People who are Anti Millan are so rude and unable to except people do things different in life and believe in different things. Just because some member like Millan doesnt make them worse dog owners or people tbh

Having pets is the same as having children we are entitled to bring them up as we see fit ...... we all use different methods and people shouldnt be made to feel bad for the path they chose. After all we are all different


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Not wishing to appear rude but if parents were pinning their children down to the floor, jabbing them in their necks, stringing them up on chains and putting shock collars on them then there would, quite rightly, be a public outcry and condemnation of it and such parents (there are sadly those who do go OTT on chastisement and control) would be brought before the courts and charged with abuse!

The same should go for pet owners, trainers, behaviourists and self styled dog whisperers who abuse dogs in such a fashion surely?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Not wishing to appear rude but if parents were pinning their children down to the floor, jabbing them in their necks, stringing them up on chains and putting shock collars on them then there would, quite rightly, be a public outcry and condemnation of it and such parents (there are sadly those who do go OTT on chastisement and control) would be brought before the courts and charged with abuse!
> 
> The same should go for pet owners, trainers, behaviourists and self styled dog whisperers who abuse dogs in such a fashion surely?


*Ah now going by what others have said to me in the past,you can't compare raising kids the same as raising a dog..Mind you, i do wonder why those very same people say their dogs are like their children to them..I have no idea why so many threads on Cesar Milan keep being made,time and time again their are those for him and those against.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

ClaireLouise said:


> What always amazing me about the Cesar Millan debate is that some of the People who are Anti Millan are so rude and unable to except people do things different in life and believe in different things. Just because some member like Millan doesnt make them worse dog owners or people tbh
> 
> Having pets is the same as having children we are entitled to bring them up as we see fit ...... we all use different methods and people shouldnt be made to feel bad for the path they chose. After all we are all different


i agree, people can like cesar millan, doesnt say anything about them. But its not about liking or hating him, its about his methods of dealing with dogs.

There are plenty different methods to raise kids too, sure. But just because there are different ways, doesnt mean they are all good and acceptable. 
There are methods which can cause the child to become shy and scared for instance and there are methods the child will actually enjoy and have fun learning something. And if someone chooses to take the risk of causing the child more problems in the future by their methods i think its only responsible to let them know that and irresponsible to accept that its their choice and they can do what they wish and because they _believe_ they are right.

Funnily never anyone answers the question why someone would choose a method which is most lilky to have only a short term fix and can cause more issues on top of that and endanger the people involved to methods which are kind and longer lasting without those dangers attached to them 

And because someone has a choice aint really the answer to that im afraid... :huh:


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I've said it before and yup...I will say it again.....bringing a dog up is very similar to bringing a child up....they need love care..and afection....disciplin....food warmth shelter etc etc....respect is a big one imo...time....pacience .....understanding.....given all of these things in any order lol....and done in a way to suit the dogs indervidual needs ....the dog isn't that hard to train.....well mine havent been anyway...xx

ps...I use one training method.....MINE lol....xx


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


Natik said:



i agree, people can like cesar millan, doesnt say anything about them. But its not about liking or hating him, its about his methods of dealing with dogs.

There are plenty different methods to raise kids too, sure. But just because there are different ways, doesnt mean they are all good and acceptable. 
There are methods which can cause the child to become shy and scared for instance and there are methods the child will actually enjoy and have fun learning something. And if someone chooses to take the risk of causing the child more problems in the future by their methods i think its only responsible to let them know that and irresponsible to accept that its their choice and they can do what they wish and because they believe they are right.

Funnily never anyone answers the question why someone would choose a method which is most lilky to have only a short term fix and can cause more issues on top of that and endanger the people involved to methods which are kind and longer lasting without those dangers attached to them 

And because someone has a choice aint really the answer to that im afraid... :huh:

Click to expand...


I thought i answerd this to you before,and it is down to personal choice.That is what life is all about.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> 
> I thought i answerd this to you before,and it is down to personal choice.That is what life is all about.*[/COLOR]


thats not an answer janice and u know that  but says it all if people cant answer a simple question....


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> 
> I thought i answerd this to you before,and it is down to personal choice.That is what life is all about.*[/COLOR]


Yes. But why would you deliberately choose a method that is less kind than another method if the kinder method works as well, or better?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Yes. But why would you deliberately choose a method that is less kind than another method if the kinder method works as well, or better?


*I haven't used his methods as i've said before.But i PERSONALY do not see his methods as being cruel.*


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

Natik said:


> i agree, people can like cesar millan, doesnt say anything about them. But its not about liking or hating him, its about his methods of dealing with dogs.
> 
> There are plenty different methods to raise kids too, sure. But just because there are different ways, doesnt mean they are all good and acceptable.
> There are methods which can cause the child to become shy and scared for instance and there are methods the child will actually enjoy and have fun learning something. And if someone chooses to take the risk of causing the child more problems in the future by their methods i think its only responsible to let them know that and irresponsible to accept that its their choice and they can do what they wish and because they _believe_ they are right.
> ...


Becuse, as in life, some people just like to be seen as the boss. It makes them feel better about themselves and more in control to 'discipline' their dogs and boss them about. 

No more or less than being about people who are on a power trip, no need for analysis, you get some people who say black is blue and it's not really worth trying to engage or change their mind. Their mind's made up that their way is correct and it makes no difference what scientifc studies you quote, or what's going on with the dog emotionally when they're carrying out these actions, nor whether the success rates are good or not. Some can call it pig headedness, some might call it ignorance, they always know better than qualified trainers and behaviourists, so what are you suppposed to do?  :wink:

Well I suppose you do what I do thesedays, concentrate on what you're doing in your own life, allow the Milan court case to go through, point people to DEFRA guidelines on owning dogs called 'Code of Practice for the welfare of dogs', and warn them that if they carry out behaviour modifications that don't follow the DEFRA guidelines that they could be liable to be charged with animal cruelty by the RSPCA or the police. Simples. 

For information the DEFRA pdf is here

http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/cruelty/documents/cop-dogs.pdf



> All dogs should be trained to behave well, ideally
> from a very young age. Only use positive rewardbased
> training. Avoid harsh, potentially painful or
> frightening training methods.


It's a waiting game, he and his trainers of his ethos'll get banned eventually, (and in the UK trainers are being asked to sign up to the CAWC code of practice, in the first instance, regulation will come later but it will come! ) until then I'd say positive reinforcement in our own lives and those around us will do more good than wasting our breaths on ignoramuses. :wink:


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, kiaro! :--)
> * i cannot watch the clip - Sky-4 does not allow it to play in the USA.*
> if this is the episode that i am thinking of...
> _the dog was a white American Bulldog, the owners were a young couple, he was in the Armed Forces, and she liked having the dog around as *protection* when alone. _
> ...


I still dont get why she was rewarding bad behaviour, whenever anyone on here posts a thread about an agressive dog people always say never reward bad behaviour, ignore the dog, walk away, turn your back etc. She didnt it growled at the person entering the house and she said good boy have a treat  sounds a bit wrong to me (rewarding bad behaviour) I dont really like her THB. JMO


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> It's a waiting game, he and his trainers of his ethos'll get banned eventually, (and in the UK trainers are being asked to sign up to the CAWC code of practice, in the first instance, regulation will come later but it will come! ) until then I'd say positive reinforcement in our own lives and those around us will do more good than wasting our breaths on ignoramuses. :wink:


Wise words.  I hope that you are right and yes, we all have better things to do than waste our breath (and energy!) but that doesn't stop us from getting involved because we care so much about dogs and their welfare. Saying CM is great and that his methods are not cruel, that it is fine to pin dogs down forcibly, to poke, jab and choke them into submission cannot be allowed to slip by unchallenged though as a lot of newcomers read these threads so they should see both sides of the argument IMHO. Then they can at least make an informed decision on which path to follow with their own dogs. But I will never sit back and let anyone tell me that the rest of the dog behaviour and welfare world are all wrong and that there is nothing wrong with dog handlers of this ilk. Said my bit now so someone else can have a go.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> I still dont get why she was rewarding bad behaviour, whenever anyone on here posts a thread about an agressive dog people always say never reward bad behaviour, ignore the dog, walk away, turn your back etc. She didnt it growled at the person entering the house and she said good boy have a treat  sounds a bit wrong to me (rewarding bad behaviour) I dont really like her THB. JMO


It's all in the timing? To get a dog to associate the sight of a visitor with treats!  I have seen the programme not long ago as I watched it online. If she had jabbed the dog in the neck for growling, she would have not only taught it that a visitor appearing meant punishment but would have also risked being attacked herself.hmy: You do not punish growls, but by associating the appearance of the thing a dog dislikes with treats, you are onto a winner. That dog was not the easiest to work with. What would you have done?


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> It's all in the timing? To get a dog to associate the sight of a visitor with treats!  I have seen the programme not long ago as I watched it online. If she had jabbed the dog in the neck for growling, she would have not only taught it that a visitor appearing meant punishment but would have also risked being attacked herself.hmy: You do not punish growls, but by associating the appearance of the thing a dog dislikes with treats, you are onto a winner. That dog was not the easiest to work with. What would you have done?


Yes, I think the best illustration of that sort of counter-conditioning is the Dr Yin video clip of her with the JRT (I think it was) who hated its face being blown in.

You could also, if you aren't familiar with the concept, think that she was rewarding the dog for reacting to being blown at; when in fact, she is pairing a treat with the thing that the dog hates, so that the once-hated thing becomes a predictor of GOOD things, and consequently not hated any more.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Yes, I think the best illustration of that sort of counter-conditioning is the Dr Yin video clip of her with the JRT (I think it was) who hated its face being blown in.
> 
> You could also, if you aren't familiar with the concept, think that she was rewarding the dog for reacting to being blown at; when in fact, she is pairing a treat with the thing that the dog hates, so that the once-hated thing becomes a predictor of GOOD things, and consequently not hated any more.


Yes, this was the clip. Simple technique that anyone could use if they thought about it. Preview of Low Stress Handling, by Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS We are just too quick to punish what we see as bad behaviour that's the trouble.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I haven't used his methods as i've said before.But i PERSONALY do not see his methods as being cruel.*


OK. Humour me here.

I don't have problems with my dogs. IF any problems did arise, I would not use CMs methods. I can say with confidence that if, hypothetically, my dogs developed any issues at all, I would use positive, reward based methods.

Now, imagine for a moment that one of your dogs develops a problem. It's not too much of a stretch of the imagination.

Let's imagine that YOUR methods didn't work and you were forced to choose between CMs methods, or kind, positive, reward based methods.

Which would you choose?

By the way, "I don't have any problems with my dogs" is not an answer. We are talking hypothetically.


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Wise words.  I hope that you are right and yes, we all have better things to do than waste our breath (and energy!) but that doesn't stop us from getting involved because we care so much about dogs and their welfare. Saying CM is great and that his methods are not cruel, that it is fine to pin dogs down forcibly, to poke, jab and choke them into submission cannot be allowed to slip by unchallenged though as a lot of newcomers read these threads so they should see both sides of the argument IMHO. Then they can at least make an informed decision on which path to follow with their own dogs. But I will never sit back and let anyone tell me that the rest of the dog behaviour and welfare world are all wrong and that there is nothing wrong with dog handlers of this ilk. Said my bit now so someone else can have a go.


I just mean there's a difference between saying your piece and quoting facts and getting so wound up by it that you look as bad as the Milan worshippers, it gets a bit evangelical and I admit, it can feel like you're banging your head on a brick wall trying to get through to some!

All you can do is present information to people, it's up to them to decide to use it or not. 

I'm really confused by Janice199, is she a troll? She doesn't use his methods, so what ones does she use, and why doesn't she use his methods if she's a fan and can't see anything cruel in them?


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

I believe I remember from an earlier topic that Janice199 mainly thinks Millan is sexy.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


Colliepoodle said:



OK. Humour me here.

I don't have problems with my dogs. IF any problems did arise, I would not use CMs methods. I can say with confidence that if, hypothetically, my dogs developed any issues at all, I would use positive, reward based methods.

Now, imagine for a moment that one of your dogs develops a problem. It's not too much of a stretch of the imagination.

Let's imagine that YOUR methods didn't work and you were forced to choose between CMs methods, or kind, positive, reward based methods.

Which would you choose?

By the way, "I don't have any problems with my dogs" is not an answer. We are talking hypothetically.

Click to expand...

Sorry but i'm not out to humour anyone.



London Dogwalker said:



I just mean there's a difference between saying your piece and quoting facts and getting so wound up by it that you look as bad as the Milan worshippers, it gets a bit evangelical and I admit, it can feel like you're banging your head on a brick wall trying to get through to some!

All you can do is present information to people, it's up to them to decide to use it or not. 

I'm really confused by Janice199, is she a troll? She doesn't use his methods, so what ones does she use, and why doesn't she use his methods if she's a fan and can't see anything cruel in them?

Click to expand...

I don't use his methods as i've no need to...am i a troll just because i don't change my way of thinking to please everyone else?



ArwenLune said:



I believe I remember from an earlier topic that Janice199 mainly thinks Millan is sexy.

Click to expand...

I have joked yes i find him sexy,but if people can't undestand a joke i'm sorry thats not my problem.*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> I don't have problems with my dogs. IF any problems did arise, I would not use CMs methods. I can say with confidence that if, hypothetically, my dogs developed any issues at all, I would use positive, reward based methods.
> 
> Now, imagine for a moment that one of your dogs develops a problem. It's not too much of a stretch of the imagination.
> 
> ...


Could u answer this janice... i am really interested what method u would choose


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> Could u answer this janice... i am really interested what method u would choose


*Because i don't disagree with Cesars methods i'd probably try his 1st, please note i did say probably.*


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> I don't use his methods as i've no need to...am i a troll just because i don't change my way of thinking to please everyone else?
> *


No I said you're a troll because you're not adding anything of use to the discussion, you're saying nothing of any substance, just that you don't find his methods cruel but you don't use them because you don't need to, and that it's down to personal choice, which doesn't really answer anything. Can't you see what a contradiction it is saying it? 

What is his methodology in your eyes? And how do they differ to 'your methods'


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

London Dogwalker said:


> No I said you're a troll because you're not adding anything of use to the discussion, you're saying nothing of any substance, just that you don't find his methods cruel but you don't use them because you don't need to, and that it's down to personal choice, which doesn't really answer anything. Can't you see what a contradiction it is saying it?
> 
> What is his methodology in your eyes? And how do they differ to 'your methods'


Let me assure you Janice is not a troll - sorry to butt in but Jan is one of our long term members on here and deserves a bit of respect.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Interesting article on why we choose different methods here - *The Appliance of Dog Science*


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> No I said you're a troll because you're not adding anything of use to the discussion, you're saying nothing of any substance, just that you don't find his methods cruel but you don't use them because you don't need to, and that it's down to personal choice, which doesn't really answer anything. Can't you see what a contradiction it is saying it?
> 
> What is his methodology in your eyes? And how do they differ to 'your methods'


And thats just your opinion not fact....... Janice HAS made interesting points in this discusssion. Janice has stood by what she believes in. What she is saying is right its PERSONAL CHOICE! people should not be belittled for what they believe in.


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Let me assure you Janice is not a troll - sorry to butt in but Jan is one of our long term members on here and deserves a bit of respect.


You can have trolling opinions and be a long standing member, it makes no difference if you're just trying to wind people up with your opinions. 

Not quite sure what you mean by respect, I respect everyone equally, just cos someone's turned up yesterday or has been posting for years makes no odds to me, doesn't make their opinon any more or less valid. 



ClaireLouise said:


> And thats just your opinion not fact....... Janice HAS made interesting points in this discusssion. Janice has stood by what she believes in. What she is saying is right its PERSONAL CHOICE! people should not be belittled for what they believe in.


Is this not a discussion forum where people discuss their opinions? *genuinely confused*


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> Is this not a discussion forum where people discuss their opinions? *genuinely confused*


Yeah it is but that doesnt mean what you say is right nor does it mean anyone who doesnt share the same beliefs as you is a troll


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> Yeah it is but that doesnt mean what you say is right nor does it mean anyone who doesnt share the same beliefs as you is a troll


Try reading my posts again, and you'll see that wasn't why I asked if they were a troll.

No need for the  either, didn't do it to you did I?


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

London Dogwalker said:


> Try reading my posts again, and you'll see that wasn't why I asked if they were a troll.
> 
> No need for the  either, didn't do it to you did I?


LOL a bit touchy arent you? its only a smiley.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

London Dogwalker said:


> You can have trolling opinions and be a long standing member, it makes no difference if you're just trying to wind people up with your opinions.
> 
> So let me get this right - u think Jan may have been a troll because of her opinions on Ceasar Milan??? - Jan doesnt wind people up she has her beliefs and sticks to them - surely there is nothing wrong in that?


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> So let me get this right - u think Jan may have been a troll because of her opinions on Ceasar Milan??? - Jan doesnt wind people up she has her beliefs and sticks to them - surely there is nothing wrong in that?


, ....................................well ya would think that wouldnt you?

Nothing wrong at all imo


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Because i don't disagree with Cesars methods i'd probably try his 1st, please note i did say probably.*


1) Why would you choose his methods, if kinder methods work as well/better?

2) Why the defensive "please note I did say probably"?

I have no problem saying I would always choose kinder methods.


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

Let's try to keep this thread on topic! It's an important discussion and we won't get anywhere if we start mud slinging! 

Caroline's link put me in mind of another interesting read: Do Not Try Dog Whispering at Home | Ahimsa Dog Training, Seattle | Dog and Puppy Tips from Seattle |


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Interesting article on why we choose different methods here - *The Appliance of Dog Science*


that was interesting to read....


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

ClaireLouise said:


> LOL a bit touchy arent you? its only a smiley.


Yeh and a rude one. Rolling your eyes at someone is pretty rude, either online or IRL.



suzy93074 said:


> So let me get this right - u think Jan may have been a troll because of her opinions on Ceasar Milan??? - Jan doesnt wind people up she has her beliefs and sticks to them - surely there is nothing wrong in that?


No I_ asked _if she was a troll (big diff!) because I found her opinions contradictary, whats wrong with asking people to clarify their views?


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

I have to say that very little of what you wrote is accurate.


goodvic2 said:


> The reason he gets such a reaction is because he is so successful.


If you mean successful, media wise, then I agree. This makes him most harmful. If you mean successful in training, then no.



> Instead he observed dogs all his life, in rural locations, as packs.


He didn't observed packs. And his experience means very little if he doesn't have the intelligence to interpret it. Besides, autodidacts tend to be failures because of our brain's built in bias. He never had a mentor challenge his assumptions. Any one familiar with confirmation bias, will recognize it in his books and speech.

COAPE - Centre of Applied Pet Ethology



> If he was cruel then he would not be so successful.


Michael Vick ring a bell?



> Unless he has this gift of brain washing the majority of the population.


Actually people are ignorant and lazy. He's found a nice meme that appeals to the public and he's charming likeable saleman.



> Do u really think he would be allowed to promote in the uk if his methods were cruel?


His methods could be cruel but no illegal, in which case there is nothing to stop him. I don't think he is evil, just ignorant.



> As the owner of 3 problematic rescue dogs, his methods have been a huge help in their rehabilitation.


I never believe this from Millan's fans. They have a terrible track record when it comes to reading dog signals.


> Finally, u will have seen he has a pack of between 30-40 dogs which he successfully manages, with few problems.


As I have already mentioned, large groups are self organizing. The dump dogs from the link above are self organizing. Caroline's example was another case of self organization.



> You don't achieve this by chance. He understands dogs and packs and this is why he has success.


He didn't achieve anything.


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> For me this picture of Cesar with daddy says all i need to know.Doen't seem like his methods have had ANY bad side effects on daddy or any of his other dogs.Now how many years has he had daddy?


*You are right. Nothing wrong here*


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Corinthian said:


> *You are right. Nothing wrong here*


Oooh Very Good Point!


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Having Daddy does not qualify him as a dog expert in the dog worlds eyes. If that were so then I have also had the same 'problem' dogs for years so where's my gong?


 I don't recall which female comedian was making fun of men and how some claim to be experts on everything just because they had seen it or done it once.

She said "*Just because I have a vagina, it doesn't make me a gynaecologist*"
:blush:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Corinthian said:


> I don't recall which female comedian was making fun of men and how some claim to be experts on everything just because they had seen it or done it once.
> 
> She said "*Just because I have a vagina, it doesn't make me a gynaecologist*"
> :blush:


ROFLMAO!! :lol::lol::lol:

True though!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

London Dogwalker said:


> Yeh and a rude one. Rolling your eyes at someone is pretty rude, either online or IRL.
> 
> No I_ asked _if she was a troll (big diff!) because I found her opinions contradictary, whats wrong with asking people to clarify their views?


*Forget the dog training and get some people skills first please.I have shown respect to others when i reply and i do expect the same.I have had no end of chats on here about Cesar and no doubt this wont be my last.Please read my posts again and explain where i contradict myself.*


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

i have to admit, i dont see those two photos as equivalent.
i feel that cm has more respect for dogs (or gf's for that matter) than CB. though, we dont know much about that couples situation, so i dont feel too assertive in my judgements of EITHER of them.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

London Dogwalker, Janice does not mean any malice by joining in so I think you may have misunderstood? She simply fancies CM which is not a crime in itself though I do worry for her, lol!  She is always polite despite her views being different to ours and is not what I would class as a troll by a long shot. :nonod: So our views may differ? That's fine and of no detriment to this thread on the whole anyway as I see it.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> 1) Why would you choose his methods, if kinder methods work as well/better?
> 
> 2) Why the defensive "please note I did say probably"?
> 
> I have no problem saying I would always choose kinder methods.


Could you answer those questions please Janice?  Thanks


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

kello82 said:


> i have to admit, i dont see those two photos as equivalent.
> i feel that cm has more respect for dogs (or gf's for that matter)


Janice wrote:"*For me this picture of Cesar with daddy says all i need to know.*" A myopic opinion and I illustrated that with the Rhianna/Brown photo.

I suspect your opinion of MIllan regarding women would change had you seen his Leadership DVD. He suggests women are weak, emotional and not natural leaders.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> Could you answer those questions please Janice? Thanks


*Ok i'll try and say this once again,I thats me, do not find his methods cruel.thats the 1st question answerd again...as for the 2nd question read all my replies and you will see its like talking to myself.*


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Corinthian said:


> Janice wrote:"*For me this picture of Cesar with daddy says all i need to know.*" A myopic opinion and I illustrated that with the Rhianna/Brown photo.
> 
> I suspect your opinion of MIllan regarding women would change had you seen his Leadership DVD. He suggests women are weak, emotional and not natural leaders.


Hmmm, second thoughts - I would LOVE to meet him! :devil: I do so like men like that. They are fun to wind up and take the mick out of!


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Corinthian said:


> I suspect your opinion of MIllan regarding women would change had you seen his Leadership DVD. He suggests women are weak, emotional and not natural leaders.


Yuh, sexism galore.

So he's saying we're less physically strong (as if that's even relevant if you're a good trainer) so more likely to search for non strength-based options, more compassionate and less likely to go with alpha posturing as a 'solution'.

What he says is only a disadvantage from his uber macho alpha posturing point of view. For the rest of us, it's sooner an an asset when you're working with animals than a problem...


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

Corinthian said:


> Janice wrote:"*For me this picture of Cesar with daddy says all i need to know.*" A myopic opinion and I illustrated that with the Rhianna/Brown photo.
> 
> I suspect your opinion of MIllan regarding women would change had you seen his Leadership DVD. He suggests women are weak, emotional and not natural leaders.


hwo can you be so sure that it is HER opinion that is myopic and not your own?

yeah if he said that, thats kinda dumb. i suppose in the primal days though, women were not natural leaders. whether that has anything to do with training, thats definitly up for argument


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

kello82 said:


> hwo can you be so sure that it is HER opinion that is myopic and not your own?
> 
> yeah if he said that, thats kinda dumb. i suppose in the primal days though, women were not natural leaders. whether that has anything to do with training, thats definitly up for argument


It's myopic because you cannot tell, from one posed photo, what someone is like as a trainer.

It's rather like seeing a picture of Harold Shipman with a live patient and saying "I shall choose him as my GP - this picture tells me all I need to know".


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

kello82 said:


> hwo can you be so sure that it is HER opinion that is myopic and not your own?


Difficulty with reading comprehension? She thinks that a picture tells her *ALL SHE NEEDS TO KNOW*. That if you don't think that's myopic, there is little I can do to help you.

My opinion is based on multiple reliable sources, a concilience of evidence and almost 100 years of animal behavior studies. I was going to post of a certain infamous moustached man looking kindly at a baby, but I decided not to Godwin the thread. So, if you think that a picture tells all you need to know, the picture of Rhianna/Brown is there to prove you wrong.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> [snip]... The reason he gets such a reaction is because he is so successful. [snip]...
> If he was cruel then he would not be so successful. Unless he has this gift of brain washing the majority of the population. *Do u really think he would be allowed to promote in the uk if his methods were cruel?* Of course not!


 hey, vic! :--) 
the reason his TV-show was condemned by the AHA - which oversees the animal-wrangling on every film-set in the USA, that uses animals OR children in the film - was because _ he is so successful?_ 
the AHA, Dodman DVM of Cummings Behavioral Clinic, and many others, _*asked Natl Geo NOT to air the show, before it had been broadcast.*_ 
they had been sent rush-clips, and were very upset by them.

just how *successful* would he have been then - without a nationwide pipeline into the living-rooms of the USA? 
do ya think he;d be coming to the UK as the *wizard trainer from LA*?

was his training-philosophy of *dominate* and his repeated invocation of *pack-theory* the reason that AVSAB - the national Vet-society of behaviorists - published a statement on DOMINANCE in dog-training? and PUNISHMENT (a-k-a aversives) in dog-training? 
or was it _because they - the national-organization - were 'jealous of his success'?_ 
is the original ASPCA, founded by Bergh in NYC, _'jealous'_ of Cesar? 
*or worried about what people are doing to their pets, in his name, and using his methods, as demonstrated on his TV-show?* 
i think its the latter, myself. 


> Finally, u will have seen he has a pack of between 30-40 dogs which he successfully manages, with few problems. [snip]...


actually, at his original south-LA location he was being *paid to board approx 60 dogs, all of whom had serious problem-behaviors. * no B-mod was done on the dogs - they were given *approx 7 hours every day, of aerobic exercise - * which can be found in his first book, cesars way. 
$15 per day per dog, times 60 dogs, = ? per month.

he sent the organizations - rescues and a few private shelters - *notice to remove all of the dogs by Jan 1, at the end of October - 60 days notice to move dogs with serious aggression issues, who had not been rehabbed, only boarded - just before the holiday period of Thanksgiving + Xmas.* so he could go look for his new property - a good chunk of the money to buy it, having come from those shoestring 501-c-3 non-profits, by boarding their problem-children. 
"daddys pack" is a memory - those dogs were scattered to the 4 winds.

finally... 
When 'Dog Whisperer' can't help - Los Angeles Times 


> *bold* added -
> EXCERPT - from Diane Krieger:
> _Cesar's efforts were *a brilliant success -- until he left our house.* For one day, Cotton was the dog I'd always dreamed he could be. Calm and submissive, deferring to the pack leader. Unfortunately, the pack leader was Cesar_


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> It's myopic because you cannot tell, from one posed photo, what someone is like as a trainer.
> 
> It's rather like seeing a picture of Harold Shipman with a live patient and saying "I shall choose him as my GP - this picture tells me all I need to know".





Corinthian said:


> Difficulty with reading comprehension? She thinks that a picture tells her *ALL SHE NEEDS TO KNOW*. That if you don't think that's myopic, there is little I can do to help you.
> 
> My opinion is based on multiple reliable sources, a concilience of evidence and almost 100 years of animal behavior studies. I was going to post of a certain infamous moustached man looking kindly at a baby, but I decided not to Godwin the thread. So, if you think that a picture tells all you need to know, the picture of Rhianna/Brown is there to prove you wrong.


*Talk about take things out of context.Had it not been said that what possible long term bad effects could his methods have?*


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> actually, at his original south-LA location he was being *paid to board approx 60 dogs, all of whom had serious problem-behaviors. * no B-mod was done on the dogs - they were given *approx 7 hours every day, of aerobic exercise - * which can be found in his first book, cesars way.
> $15 per day per dog, times 60 dogs, = ? per month.
> 
> he sent the organizations - rescues and a few private shelters - *notice to remove all of the dogs by Jan 1, at the end of October - 60 days notice to move dogs with serious aggression issues, who had not been rehabbed, only boarded - just before the holiday period of Thanksgiving + Xmas.* so he could go look for his new property - a good chunk of the money to buy it, having come from those shoestring 501-c-3 non-profits, by boarding their problem-children.
> ...


That's what I heard a while ago as well. Things do not seem to be as they first appear then. Hmmm. Always pays to look a little deeper than the polished veneer doesn't it?

That link was very informative. Cottons' owner seems to have tried everything. Drastic action in the end but I suppose it saves dogs lives, especially dogs who are loved by their owners regardless of their faults as many are.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I have no idea why so many threads on Cesar Milan keep being made... their (there) are those for him and those against.*


because, *janice - the hazard to pet-owners of assuming he must be right, and the hazard to their *dogs* of those pet-owners attempting his techniques (despite a flimsy disclaimer) has not ceased. 
it is an on-going and very real problem, especially for those of us who work with dogs who HAVE problem-behaviors... 
or who work in shelters + rescues.

more dogs are developing =worse= problems, 
after some well-intentioned but poorly instructed person attempts to FIX the dog - and succeeds only in worsening the problem... 
at which point, they choose among a few options - 
rehome the dog themselves, 
seek someone to help (a trainer, CAAB, vet-behaviorist), 
or surrender the dog to a shelter or private-rescue... 
and then some months later... they get another pup / dog and begin the entire sequence again, from START.

this is not good for the person - who wants a dog as a companion; 
its not good for the dogs, who are misunderstood + mis-handled, and often then abandoned; 
and its REALLY bad for the shelters and rescues, who receive dogs who are more-likely to bite, defensively. 
and quite a few have been * Punished! * for growling - so they do not growl; they freeze for a moment, 
and Wham! they bite.

i do not like seeing fearful dogs who have been made fearful; its depressing. 
however, i like being threatened by a dog who has been TAUGHT to be un-trusting even less.  :nonod: 
thats why i continue to try to get the word out: 
*Cesars methods are not recommended, by the ASPCA, AVMA, AVSAB, ASPCA, and other humane + professional organizations. *


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Hmmm, second thoughts - I would LOVE to meet him! :devil: I do so like men like that. They are fun to wind up and take the mick out of!


 Cesar came within a hair - a superfine, delicate infants hair - of losing his wife + children, early on. he was forced to modify *some* of his machismo attitudes + behaviors, and also modify *some* of his paternalistic beliefs about who does what, who is ALLOWED to do what, who may make decisions, and so on - but he has not IMO morphed into a New-Age marriage-counselors role-model of a modern man, supportive of womens rights, etc.

the _women are weak and emotional_ thing snuck into the dialogue of his Dog-Whisperer episodes more than once. 
 remind me of just how EMOTIONAL + INEFFECTIVE women are sometime, while i watch *men* yank their dogs about, 
hit them when frustrated, and scream epithets at the dogs rapidly diminishing rear-view, as *their* dog gallops off after the waterfowl at a local park... 
amazingly enuf, more women (among pet-owners) in my direct experience make better trainers, than the many men i have dealt with, over the years. 
Why? 
from my observations, women are less-likely to take it out on the dog, when they get frustrated. 
i advance this only as a hypothesis - i have not made a deliberate study of anyones clients but my own.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

That's certainly my observation in horse trainers and owners. Men are much more likely to reach for a strength/power based method to get what they want. If you asked me to make a top 10 of the best trainers I know, the first man is at #7..


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> That's certainly my observation in horse trainers and owners. Men are much more likely to reach for a strength/power based method to get what they want.


this is also sadly true of my experience of USA-riders - 
if U have a horse who is a bit uncertain going over jumps, or who panics when faced by flapping leaves on a windy day, or who wants to push ahead on the trail and cannot BEAR to have another horses butt in front of them...

U do not want to put a man on that horse. :huh: why? because if the horse is uncertain now, or a bit Bolshy now, 
AFTER the male-rider has done with them, the uncertain horse will now be terrified, and the Bolshy-horse will be a revolutionary.

men seem to have little time or patience to get into the animals mind-frame and empathize with their fears or frustrations - 
they just want the horse to *goddammit Do as yer told, ya daft lummox!*  (thump!) 
and thats supposed to be an end of it. :nonod: but as animals are emotional creatures, _* U will by Gawd...*_ is not only INeffective, it is damaging. 
the old *Do it - or else...*  seems to come much-more readily to men, as a kneejerk response. 
and horses being ruled by their fears, once their trust is gone they are one of 2 things: 
certain that U will hurt them, or get them into scary situations (untrustworthy #1) 
or certain that U will force them, and that they must resist U (untrustworthy #2).

neither version is a helpful concept of humans... and dogs can have the same cardboard-cutouts idea of humans, 
as Frightening (run away!) or as Punishing/Forceful (resist to the bitter end). 
it is not helpful to be domineering IME - 
it only gets in the way of resolving the actual problem, :thumbsup: and then having some fun! :001_tt1:

cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Ian Dunbar: disciplining dogs


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Ian Dunbar: disciplining dogs


This is a downloadable file and it is safe to do so according to my pc and McAfee folks.  (Some people might not have realised Terry.  )


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## maui's mum (Feb 22, 2010)

ok i might get lynched on here firstly i would like to say i will not get draged in to any arguments about training methods every one has there own way of doing things wether following a celebrity or another trainer from a book or their local club i agree with some of cesar's methods though not all and i do not agree with just relying on reward based training as the be all and end all, i am going to see cesar next week in london with my dog sitter as we think we would find it intresting to get a more direct view of his opinion i will say that i only used just reward based method only with my dog for a couple of weeks to try and get her out of grabbing the lead when she gets over excited(as a local "dog trainer" that i asked to visit for a second oppinion sugested i stoped using disapline and corection with rewards and just used rewards) and it just made her worse as she took it in to her head that grabbing the lead ment being given a treat so i went back to the methods my dad taught me pure and undiluted with things i had picked up from other trainers which is to watch the dog for her cues as to when she is going to grab the lead and give her a correction before just before she grabs it and after a week she had stoped with me though it took about three weeks longer to get her to stop it with my dog sitter who has her if im at or in hospital and my cousin who walks her if im on bed rest for somthing as being a bullmastiff cross english bull terrier she is very much a one handler breed and with them grabbing the lead wasn't play as it was with me it was a case of get off i want my own handler not any one else and a bit of why aren't you on wheels why are you on your feet yes i am in a wheelchair and she walks pefectly well with my chair she just gets a bit wary of people walking her on their feet but she is fine on the odd occasion i use my walking frame. she also sits me up in the mornings as i am unable to do this without help and picks up things like my gloves and keys or mobile phone if i drop them. any way back to cesar i have to say he is better with pitbulls and other bull breeds than a lot of other trainers from what i have seen which not knowing him is all i can base my views on as the one eppisode as you all seem to love her i will say this the one eppisode the rich english woman from its me or the dog usa tries with a pitbull it looked like she just gave a tempory fix all bull breeds are notoriusly stubborn working breeds and it needs long term intensive work to train them which is probably why cesar tends to take them back to his center instead of leaving them with the owner ad to that as working breeds they need a couple of miles a day minimum for exercise or you just end up with a nurotic dog where as a grayhound only needs 20 min once or twice a day and will happily spend the rest of the day on the sofa


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Morgan Spector, in his book Clicker Training for Obedience, p. 42


> _The need for compulsion arises from trainer error. _


discussing the above quote:
____________________________________________

In my own experience as a trainer, I generalize this (compulsion) to mean "punishment" (positive, and even 
negative-punishment, too, much of the time)... this latter statement is my opinion, and my current position 
on use of P+ in training dogs.
--- cathy toft;
agility-trainer, Collie-rescue, UC-Davis staff

years ago, Ted Turner, a Sea-World senior-trainer at the time, once told Ken McCort 
_'dog-trainers use aversives because they can'._ He also said _'that condition does not make it ethical'._ 
(IOW, that its possible does not make it right.)

that statement of Turners touched a nerve in Ken McCort; he said,
_'I quit relying on aversives (with) dogs in 1991. I was a good compulsion trainer... I got results. 
Now I feel that *the way I get results is as important as the results* themselves.'_

McCort has trained many individual wild animals, of many species; he said that it is impossible to train a wild-animal, 
even a human-habituated captive, with punishment -- hard-wired survival reflexes of fear (in response to pain or threat) 
immediately kick-in, and these are enormously difficult to reduce, let alone remove, once aroused. all learning ceases.

i am heartened to note, all 4 of these trainers were once accustomed to use aversives; all 4 have since essentially 
(like myself) abjured them, as we have learned better; pos-R is efficient, kinder to the animal/student, 
and is surely a lot more enjoyable to dish-out!

i have to hope that other punishment-oriented handlers will try pos-R, discover as many have that it is potent and joyful, 
and change - becoming just as powerful promotors of pos-R as they once were of punishment + aversives.

wouldn;t it be great if Cesar decided that a $1 clicker was an improvement over a 49-cent nylon-braid kennel-noose?
if the millions of fans who think he can do no wrong, were shown an even-better training tool?

thinking positively,
---- terry


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

Corinthian said:


> Difficulty with reading comprehension? She thinks that a picture tells her *ALL SHE NEEDS TO KNOW*. That if you don't think that's myopic, there is little I can do to help you.
> 
> My opinion is based on multiple reliable sources, a concilience of evidence and almost 100 years of animal behavior studies. I was going to post of a certain infamous moustached man looking kindly at a baby, but I decided not to Godwin the thread. So, if you think that a picture tells all you need to know, the picture of Rhianna/Brown is there to prove you wrong.


wow THANK YOU for criticizing my intelligence, it really made my day! i think i will savor this post forever.....

if you dont take things so unbelievably literally, you would realize that statements like that can be a FIGURE OF SPEECH. judging by janice's affinity for the DW, i would assume she has seen many an episode of the show. so no, she is NOT judging him solely on that photo, she has plenty of other evidenciary support (in her opin at least) to draw such a conclusion.

based on that, i would assume that her statement expresses her affection and high regard for CM. in this case it is not about the words she says, its how she says them.

Difficulty with reading between the lines?


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> It's myopic because you cannot tell, from one posed photo, what someone is like as a trainer.
> 
> It's rather like seeing a picture of Harold Shipman with a live patient and saying "I shall choose him as my GP - this picture tells me all I need to know".


thanks for explaining collie, i appreciate it


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

this summary is from March 2007 - 
___________________________________________ 
for those of U unaware of Cesar's legal hassles,
he was the target of 2 lawsuits back in Aug/Sept '06;
he sent NOTICES to at least 3 L.A. shelters, and several small rescues, 
just before Hallowe'en, informing them that *'all' of the over-80 dogs 
had to be 'picked up' by Dec. 15th, and removed from the property. *
(he'd been paid $15/dog/day boarding fee to house and 'work with'
some of their worst-dogs, who have very serious aggro, RG or other
behavioral issues.)

Cesar made no suggs as to what should be done with the dogs;
he DID say he planned to shut-down his SE-L.A. 'Dog Psych Center',
and is looking for a new location outside the city...
with room for pools, a trail-system, multiple pack-pens, etc.

the general consensus:
shutting down the k9-psych-centre was a cost-cutting measure to help
cover his legal bills, after a Dobe was severely injured WHILE TIED TO 
A TREADMILL WEARING A CHOKE-CHAIN (the dog fell, de-gloving both 
hindlegs, trapped in the mechanism, and had severe neck-injuries).

he was also sued by his former-agent, who attested that the video CM 
shopped to Natl. Geo was his product, and that 'the Dog Whisperer' 
was his (the agent's); he's suing for royalties / unpaid wages, etc.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

yeah i remember hearing about the new place, its a big place way out in the open. i kinda wondered why.

do they know for sure who was the one WITH that poor dobie? it couldve just been some a-hole who worked at the center that forgot to take the chain off.
personally, i dont believe that he would be careless like that, but mistakes do happen i suppose  
means nothing to the sufferers though 

huh are you sure it wasnt a lab? i just looked it up and there was a lab named Gator, it was the Suarez case.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> the general consensus:
> shutting down the k9-psych-centre was a cost-cutting measure to help
> cover his legal bills, after a Dobe was severely injured WHILE TIED TO
> A TREADMILL WEARING A CHOKE-CHAIN (the dog fell, de-gloving both
> ...


This is what his adoring public do not want to know about though. They will make all sorts of excuses for him and whether or not he was at the psych center when the Dobe was injured, it was after all HIS responsibility as owner of the place to ensure that staff were fully trained and that safety procedures were in place. No way would I send one of my dogs to such a place and I doubt that any caring owner with a grain of sense would either! Seems to me that he is just providing for the publics need for 'quick fix' which is why people like him so much. :huh:


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

i dont make excuses for ANYONE. i state my thoughts opinions and beliefs, and i was thinking about whether or not it was him or some a-hole kid who was hungover.

and yes, it is his responsibility and he messed up in this case.

but to me, a err in judgment of character makes you human. leaving a choke chain on a dog on a treadmill makes you a dumbass.
theres your difference.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

kello82 said:


> but to me, a err in judgment of character makes you human. leaving a choke chain on a dog on a treadmill makes you a dumbass.
> theres your difference.


Yep as does hauling a dog up and hanging it there by a choke chain until it's tongue turns blue or physically restraining and jabbing a dog so much that it bites you or collapses flat out in fear and asphyxiation and that is no exaggeration.  http://c1.libsyn.com/media/729/05198_11_Working-with-a-W_006.m4v?nvb=20100223151434&nva=20100224152434&t=0248f3b1da2dbc23d4479

I have never ever been bitten in the line of dog training or behaviour rehab and I have been into it a lot longer than CM and had some scarey dogs to work with in my time. I think he must have specially reinforced arms as he is bitten so much I do not know how his skin can take it!  Not a good example to set anyone, least of all on TV.


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

right ive been through and deleting some post when was closed 

so keep it on topic and nice NO BEING RUDE or i'll close all millan threads


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Thanks Carol.

Ok so where were we?


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

we are back into a nice respectful friendly debate, thats where we are


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

American Humane and Cesar Millan convene a dog training symposium - Steve Dale's Pet World 


> sosorry said:
> _When we in the trenches have to try to explain to a client why the tenets that Cesar and National Geographic Channel... support, are not good science, we have to present a dissertation.
> And even if we *do* manage to present that dissertation - we are still left with the most sinister fallout of the twentieth century  *if its on TV, it must be true.*
> *We have allowed ignorant television producers, ignorant marketing gurus, and others to send good solid empirically based humane behavior modification back into the Dark Ages. *_
> ...


i can only agree - hopefully this will lead to change, but i would not bet the farm on it; CM/DW + Natl-Geo have made gobs of money, selling instant-fixes of suppression, exhaustion, and force-thru-flooding. 
why change the nice, appealingly simplistic formula, that got them all that moolah? 

drama sells - 
lets face it, no-one watches SURVIVOR to learn how to live off the land in that particular place;  they watch to see anger, passion, bitter arguments, public humiliation, envy, and other emotional disasters. :thumbdown: which is why i don;t watch it... (shrug) mental hygiene is important.  i may have to use a public toilet, but i am not forced to read the graffiti on the walls.


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## Skyelacey (Jan 23, 2010)

It's interesting reading everyones different opinions on the topic not only on cesar millan but dog trainning in general. 

As is evident there are several differnt opinions and they vary widely. 

Thanks Crol for cleaning up the thread and keeping everyone in check, lol.

Skye xx


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

you know what i would like to see? 

i think it would be neat to poll the oinions about cm, totally UNbiased one way or the other, and have this poll be completely dicussion free. 
i am curious to see what peoples opinions are and who feels which way, cause i have a feeling that many dont participate because of the frustration that sometimes happens through these threads.

without fear of criticism or having to have a defnense.....i wonder what the outcome wtih be.

my view of this forum is that there are more members who do not agree with his methods, but who knows, it coiuld be equally split? or there could be even more positive training advocates than appear to be now!

i am curious....


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Kello there is a thread somewhere I think with a poll on how many people agree and disagree with CMs methods  I'm not great with the search system though so someone else will hopefully find it lol


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Kello there is a thread somewhere I think with a poll on how many people agree and disagree with CMs methods  I'm not great with the search system though so someone else will hopefully find it lol


The poll:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/14622-cesar-millan-love-him-hate-him-you-decide.html


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

We really ought to have a poll on his method Vs positive method? I don't 'hate' him as such, I just dislike what he promotes. To me there is a difference. If we made one and then told the mods, they could close the thread for us but would the poll still work though?


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> The poll:
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/14622-cesar-millan-love-him-hate-him-you-decide.html


Thanks! Shame more people didn't vote.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

I agree I would prefer a poll about methods, not about people. That one is a year and a half old, so it seems logical to start a new one?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

a poll would be real interesting .... on his methods vs kind methods but not on him as a person, as i for instance dont hate him and dont love him either :huh:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Ok, the shadow vid was removed by all sources - surprise surprise - i wonder why 
Anyway i found it again :wink: and put it in into this interesting comparison as the vid link on the original site was gone too :wink: (dont be suprised when the link wont work anytime soon probably  )

I watched it and im disgusted to see that cesar even *pulls the dog up by a PRONG COLLAR *at the beginning. Dogs react to pain so i dont blame the dog for what its doing. _He triggered the reaction in first place by checking the dog back with the prong collar!_
For those who dont know what a prong collar is








source Google Image Result for http://yovia.com/blogs/dogtraining101/files/2010/01/dog_prong_collar-730056.jpg

*'Red zone' dogs, compare Cesar Millan to poitive methods by a behaviourist *

Many people often comment that Cesar Millans more extream methods are OK because they are saving the lives of real OTT red zone dogs that would otherwise be put to sleep.
Most people do not realise that most behaviourists will deal with these type of dogs on a regular basis. In the main these methods are not shown on TV as they do not seem as flashy, the dogs are kept calm - not as interesting for TV as a 'out of control' dog, a man v's dog struggle and then a 'calm, fixed' dog turning up as if by some kind of magic.
So I am puting up a couple of similar examples for you to see the difference

YouTube - APBC member Mat Ward working with a problem dog.

This first clip shows a positive way to do things.
At the start the dog is very stressed and giving out mixed signals to the dog. Sure its tail is wagging but look in its eyes, look at its face. This is a common problem with people with fearful dogs. This dog is stress panting, it does not know how to behaive with the other dog being there and has learnt the best way to cope is to bark and be scary because that makes the other dog go away (either the other dog is taken away or it is dragged away - either way it dosent have to interact with the other dog)
At this point the trainers are not training the dog, they are assesing the situation. The dog is not in a position to learn anything much, it is just reacting.
Like all flashy TV shows this is now cut as the dog is taught some better ways to behaive.
Training a dog at a great enough distance from the trigger (the other dog in this case) so the dog can be calm. It learns that nice things happen when the other dog is about and that the handler is not going to force it to interact with the other dog.
At the end of the clip you can see from the dogs body language that it is relaxed and happy, it is able to focus on the handler and is enjoying working with them. It is aware of the other dog being there but now the other dog being there is just a signal that nice things - like work and treats - are gonna happen, the other dog is no threat.
That dog is calm, happy and safe.

Now lets see how Cesar deals with a dog like that. (for some strange reason Nat Geo takes these clips down often - strange that - so it is working now but if it is gone when you try to watch then let me know and I will try and find one that is up)
*This is the shadow video!*
YouTube - Shadow turns blue
(the part talked about starts at roughly 2.50 mins in the vid)

At the start the dog is walking fairly close to the collie although it dosent look v happy it is not showing agression and there are plenty of chances for CM to reward the dog. But of course CM does not reward a dog for good behaviour he prefers to force it do the wrong thing so he can punish it and show it who is the boss.
So he keeps bringing the dogs closer together until the dog looks at the collie
Note there is STILL no agression here yet
But that is enough for CM. He kicks the dog and at the same time tightens the lead

Now people argue about the force of the kick, whether this is a 'foot tap' or a 'kick'
Have you ever been focused on something and not realised a friend is behind you until they tap you on the shoulder? Sometimes you whip round heart racing, you really jump
When you see it is a friend you calm down say 'what a fright you gave me' and have a laugh
But in Shadows case it isnt a friend behind him, its CM, who at the same time is tighting the lead up and cutting off the dogs air

Of course the dog will fight back, and it shows what a really good dog that is that it dosent do some real harm to CM. It could have if it had wanted to.

Now there is a battle, it ends when the dog gives up - whether it has run out of air or if it just gives up I do not know.
But what has it learnt here??
Strange dog is about, it is still scary, but this man is even more scary

The slideshow http://s59.photobucket.com/albums/g315/k18sst/shadow/?start=all shows where CM goes from here
He muzzles the dog and surrounds it with strange dogs
If you look at the dog you can see it is NOT happy, it is NOT calm and submissive it is stressed and scared.
Now what do you think will happen when it sees another dog when CM is not holding the lead?? Do you think that the owners are going to be able to fight him like that to show that they are more scary than the other dogs??

Taken from
Ben Mcfuzzylugs crafty bits and dog agility: 'Red zone' dogs, compare Cesar Millan to poitive methods by a behaviourist


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Great post Natik, I can never watch the full video it's too distressing


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

I'll never forget first watching the episode featuring Shadow (Season 4, Episode 18) it made me feel sick to my stomach. I posted a link to it earlier, but that was only an excerpt; well done for finding the whole piece, Natik. I'd definitely recommend that people watch this with the sound turned down, that way you can focus on what is really happening as opposed to being misled by CM's take on things. Turn the volume up again and you'll hear these notable quotes: 'A dominant reaction using his mouth' as a terrified dog is given no option but to react; 'He now wants to relax' as Shadow is forced to completely _shut down_.

I'm staggered that anyone could watch this and still think CM's methods are acceptable.

Excellent post, Natik.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

sequeena said:


> Thanks! Shame more people didn't vote.


yeah ths what im sayin! if we do a poll without disscussion of preference, then maybe more people will vote if they know that they wont be caught up in debate?


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

kello82 said:


> yeah ths what im sayin! if we do a poll without disscussion of preference, then maybe more people will vote if they know that they wont be caught up in debate?


Never going to happen 

I don't think a closed thread would allow you to vote.

btw people can vote and be anonymous so there's no reason why they shouldn't vote. They don't have to comment.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

i have to say, i see the dog react first.

i jsut watched that section 502873058231 times over and it goes:
shot of other dog and person
back to shadow w/cm
shadow semi-lunges in response to the other dog
cesar "kicks/taps" (whichever you prefer)
shadow doesnt respond
cesar tugs leash to tighten prong
shadow jumps cm and bites leash
battle to stop shadow from jumping ensues
shadow sits
cm changes the leash into a regular slip

thats what i see.

if you look really closely, shadows front legs are off the ground before cms foot even touches him. whether you like cm or not, i think we can all agree that he has quick reflexes, yes?
his foot is there ALMOST at the same time. but i see it, not quite.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

sequeena said:


> Never going to happen
> 
> I don't think a closed thread would allow you to vote.
> 
> btw people can vote and be anonymous so there's no reason why they shouldn't vote. They don't have to comment.


ooooo, huh well theres that.
yeah, yup yall are right then!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Never going to happen


Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - Poll on CMs methods + tools, as shown on the Dog-Whisperer TV-show



> ...people can vote and be anonymous... They don't have to comment.


sorry -  the one i posted is not anonymous.
--- terry


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - Poll on CMs methods + tools, as shown on the Dog-Whisperer TV-show
> 
> sorry -  the one i posted is not anonymous.
> --- terry


LOL that's ok  I think you can ask the mods to put in a poll if you want it to be anonymous. I don't mind saying what I think but as we all know other people won't for fear of what will be said.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Hello All

Just watched the shadow link - what can i say, awful.

I have no sound on my computer, think that is the best way to watch it. As you can not hear him talk......and just see the dogs actions.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

GillyR said:


> I have no sound on my computer, think that is the best way to watch it. As you can not hear him talk......and just see the dogs actions.


I think so too - the voiceover can often be very suggestive. (talented writer-voice actor combo - should go into advertising!) I noticed that sometimes unless I was very consciously considering the words and observing the dog, most of it sounded quite believable!


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

If i put my hands around my dogs throat and squeezed so hard her tongue turned blue, and she collapsed on the floor, i would be an abuser......

Barbaric - i have seen similar on fur farms in china!! 

It makes me wonder what they did edit before showing.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Years ago i thought barbra woodhouse was cruel....he really takes the choke collar to another level.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

GillyR said:


> If i put my hands around my dogs throat and squeezed so hard her tongue turned blue, and she collapsed on the floor, i would be an abuser......


I don't know if you are into horses, but there is a certain training regime called Rollkur. It involves schooling the horse with its neck bent with nose very close to the chest for long periods... and various footage of that shows horses with their tongues going blue from lack of oxygen.

Proponents say it exercises the horse and gets its muscles ready and toned for dressage. But it has been banned now in most countries... it is clearly beyond the pale as regards animal welfare.

ANYONE anywhere in the world who forces any animal to the degree that its tongue turns blue for whatever reason, chokes it of oxygen or forces it to submit to that level is wrong.


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

kello82 said:


> i have to say, i see the dog react first.


I find it interesting that you should focus on the kick as being the key issue in this episode, as opposed to considering CM's on-going bullying and overbearingly aggressive response to the dog's problems throughout the clip. Most dog trainers I know would never be ignorant enough to even consider meeting aggression with aggression; whether its a tap or a 'kick' really doesnt matter  any well informed dog trainer would know that using either would be a recipe for disaster.

It's even more interesting that you might consider CM's kick to be an appropriate response to the dog's initial reaction. Maybe Im wrong, but thats what you seem to be suggesting in the above quote.

I'm sorry to say that as far as I'm concerned a kick is a kick regardless of whether the dog moved first or not. When I'm evaluating a dog handler's résumé, a quick kick reflex isn't something I'd consider as being a positive attribute!

You see the dog react first? Well, ignoring for the moment the fact that the dog is forced to react throughout the episode, I have no problem with your observation; we are after all talking about a dog with some serious issues. But the real conversation here should be about how CM _responds _to and _deals with _those issues and in my opinion he handles things very, very badly.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I don't know if you are into horses, but there is a certain training regime called Rollkur. It involves schooling the horse with its neck bent with nose very close to the chest for long periods... and various footage of that shows horses with their tongues going blue from lack of oxygen.
> 
> Proponents say it exercises the horse and gets its muscles ready and toned for dressage. But it has been banned now in most countries... it is clearly beyond the pale as regards animal welfare.
> 
> ANYONE anywhere in the world who forces any animal to the degree that its tongue turns blue for whatever reason, chokes it of oxygen or forces it to submit to that level is wrong.


No i didnt know that - thank god it is banned - such cruelty makes me retch.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> I don't know if you are into horses, but there is a certain training regime called Rollkur. It involves schooling the horse with its neck bent with nose very close to the chest for long periods... and various footage of that shows horses with their tongues going blue from lack of oxygen.


Oh god, don't get me started on rollkur, I could rant for days.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

Inkdog said:


> I find it interesting that you should focus on the kick as being the key issue in this episode, as opposed to considering CM's on-going bullying and overbearingly aggressive response to the dog's problems throughout the clip. Most dog trainers I know would never be ignorant enough to even consider meeting aggression with aggression; whether its a tap or a 'kick' really doesnt matter  any well informed dog trainer would know that using either would be a recipe for disaster.
> 
> It's even more interesting that you might consider CM's kick to be an appropriate response to the dog's initial reaction. Maybe Im wrong, but thats what you seem to be suggesting in the above quote.
> 
> ...


hey im not really focusing on one thing inparticular at all, and am in no way making judgments about his methods in general

i was responding to the poster (dont remember who posted it, sorry) who interpreted it cm was instigating the dog to get a reacting from him.

i just eanted to say my piece that i see the dog begin to react aggreessivly before cm does anything at all in this ONE particular instance of the clip.

and no, i was not commenting at all on whether or not the correction in question was appropriate, i was merely describing those few seconds of the clip as i saw them happen.
what i think of the method is a differnt story all together, and is opinion. my post, was purely factual. 
except for that i watched it 20852358 times, it was not that many, but it was alot 

i shouldve quoted the specific part i was reffering to, my apologies for being unclear.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> I'm sorry to say that as far as I'm concerned a kick is a kick regardless of whether the dog moved first or not. *When I'm evaluating a dog handler's résumé, a quick kick reflex isn't something I'd consider as being a positive attribute! *


hey, inky! :--) 
thank DoG, i was not drinking my coffee - amid a serious post, this caught me unprepared, and i laughed out-loud :laugh: even tho oddly-enuf, i would be very upset in real-life if someone had a kneejerk reaction to tap, kick, whatever a reactive dog... 
as whatever else it did, *it would Not improve the dogs behavior or emotional mindset.* 
nonetheless - the sudden image of U reading a resume', and reacting with a jolt to that sentence, 
really tickled me! 



> ...we are after all talking about a dog with some serious issues. But the real conversation here should be about how CM _responds _to and _deals with _those issues and in my opinion he handles things very, very badly.


i definitely agree - 
however *bad* we feel the dogs behavior is, our own response must be thoughtful. 
i cannot improve aggro by adding aggro of my own - that only makes things worse. 
if the dog is willing to escalate indefinitely - *and there are those, they may be few, but they exist...* 
then what would i do?! * the FIRST rule of diplomacy is never, ever escalate. *

in a genuine emergency, we may be forced by circumstances to escalate - 
* but emergencies + crises are not training -* training is planned; accidents *happen*. 
training is not an accidental event.  
cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

kello82 said:


> ...im not really focusing on one thing in particular at all, and am in no way making judgments about his methods in general [snip]... i was not commenting... on whether or not the correction in question was appropriate, i was merely describing those few seconds of the clip as i saw them happen.


hey, kello! :--) 
i did not get the impression that U were justifying or defending - 
merely trying to describe events, which as we all know, happen in an eye-blink.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

you got it L4L, exactly as you said it!

it does happen so quickly, esp that part of the clip. makes it very easy to be up for debate doesnt it??


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

kello82 said:


> i just eanted to say my piece that i see the dog begin to react aggreessivly before cm does anything at all in this ONE particular instance of the clip.


Do remember as well that CM also works with the dog alone without the owners of cameras prior to filming.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I really like this article for a simple insight into a more acceptable (and plausible) alternative: Trainers with Jackhammers need not apply


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tripod said:


> ...insight into a more acceptable (and plausible) alternative: Trainers with Jackhammers need not apply


YAY - :thumbup: love it! :001_tt1: especially This part -


> Cultural fog has us groping inside the animal for what we need to break - its dominance, jealousy, or hormones - when we should be *looking in the environment for the purpose behavior serves.* (then) we can train the animal to achieve that purpose (with) an appropriate alternative behavior or teach new skills for new outcomes.
> 
> ...Noah's Ark isn't just a celebration of diversity. It's also... likeness - in this case, how animals learn. The bottom line is, behavior isn't like cement, so trainers with jackhammers need not apply.
> 
> ...


excellent summary, and a very good Q - 
right up there with, *What would U rather have the pup / dog / aardvark Do? *
thanks for the link, i will be sharing that one.  
cheers, 
--- terry


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