# Breeding within the Family



## emajhall (Apr 21, 2008)

I have become aware of some breeders breeding brother and sister, father and daughter etc and was wondering whether firstly this is something which is generally acceptable. I understand it can improve the lines but i also thought this causes birth defects etc so i was confused?


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## rottiesloveragdolls (Nov 2, 2007)

emajhall said:


> I have become aware of some breeders breeding brother and sister, father and daughter etc and was wondering whether firstly this is something which is generally acceptable. I understand it can improve the lines but i also thought this causes birth defects etc so i was confused?


I would not breed with them being so close, as agree to possible defects in the kittens,


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## Rraa (Apr 15, 2008)

I would not do this.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I would definitely not do it purposefully either, its just asking for trouble. Most breeders 'line breed' ie double up on a particular cat in a pedigree, to cement a particular good point/type in the offspring, but even that should be done with care as you have to be completely sure that the line you are doubling up on is free from any genetic anomalies - which is almost an impossible thing to ascertain as you could have recessive nasties hidden being passed unseen from generation to generation just waiting to be doubled up on.

 Sorry 'Soap Box Alert' 

If close family members are deliberately bred the chances of getting problems is enhanced greatly. I have seen breeders do it and proclaim their lines are fine because they had no birth defects or dead kittens, but there is no way of telling at that point, even at 14 weeks when they leave home, what inherent weaknesses you have bred into those kittens, cancers, heart problems, kidney or liver problems, all these things could come out later in life and cause not only suffering for the cat, but heartache for their family. Its illegal for people to marry close relatives for a reason.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

In my last litter my cats dad was the stud cats grandad.
I lost one kitten at 2 days with a cleft palate. I felt awfull for the kitten that suffered, especially knowing it could have been avoided.
Definatly a lesson learnt the hard way!


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## emajhall (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm being stupid here but what is the difference then when people line breed?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Line breeding means breeding cats that share common ancestors but are not closely related. Its still inbreeding to an extent, just a lesser evil but should still be done with care. If you line breed with one generation ideally you should outcross completely for the next.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

There is no differenceits something thats always been done with dogs and cats,i cant understand it either!especially when breeders look down at un registered breeders and claim they could be breeding close kin!its something that works for some but not for others.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I have done both father-daughter and brother-sister without any problems. I agree you need to be careful.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

I am trying to avoid it completely.


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

clare7577 said:


> There is no differenceits something thats always been done with dogs and cats,i cant understand it either!especially when breeders look down at un registered breeders and claim they could be breeding close kin!its something that works for some but not for others.


I agree with you Clare-you don't get it


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## may (Nov 2, 2007)

lizward said:


> I have done both father-daughter and brother-sister without any problems. I agree you need to be careful.


I feel this is to close, just mho


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## Rraa (Apr 15, 2008)

may said:


> I feel this is to close, just mho


mmmmm - my humble opinion too ....


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

I wouldn't do it.


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## Sarnajes (Mar 30, 2008)

I wouldn't do it, too risky.


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## SavannahKitten (Mar 9, 2008)

With new breeds you have to inbreed to a certain extent otherwise the lines will go nowhere and the features will never become locked in. And yes, there's a cost to doing that. But that's how all pedigree breeds started!

But I wouldn't inbreed a full brother and sister if I could help it.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

except there are sometimes accidents like mother son matings or something, must happen.


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## Saynamore (Feb 28, 2008)

clare7577 said:


> Im not the one posting in with defects,stillborns,deaths and health problems....


Right thanks Clare for reminding me that I have just lost a full litter, stillborn due to trying line breeding, just what I needed that! It is the first time I have tried it and the last, but certainly didnt need reminding of my loss 

I would have thought posting our problems as above would be good advice to other users, not something to be used as amunition against other breeders!


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## emajhall (Apr 21, 2008)

I know breeders who have bred brother and sister and produced stunning litters with no problems whatsoever and then there are defects and still births when breeders haven't inbred so it could just be bad luck that this happened to you and nothing to do with the inbreeding. Just a thought.


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## catmad (May 1, 2008)

Hi all, im new to this forum, i breed/show Persians..

I personally dont have a problem about line breeding, but its imperative that its done properly and a lot of research had to be done.

I think a lot of it for many is fear of the unknown, i too thought that it was a definite no no when i first started breeding 8 years ago, but after looking into it in-depth, talking to other breeders and talking to my vets i was then convinced it was a route that i wanted to go down.

Nature does it all the time in the wild, packs of Lions, wolves ect...we cant compare it to humans as thats not realistic as we have genetically different makeup.

There is actually more risk to kittens from defects by out crossing than there is to line breeding as at least with line breeding you know what kittens genetically you will be producing. But never would you put brother to sister that is and should never be done, mother to son and daughter to father is fine as one side of the matting will be an outcross.

If done properly you will not get deformed kittens, cleft pallets etc can appear to a totally outcross matting and wouldnt be down to line breeding.

Again its not something to go into lightly and be prepared to look deeply into it, but the benefits can be outstanding.


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## Saynamore (Feb 28, 2008)

Hellooooooooo, its great to see another Persian breeder on here o you have a prefix? Would be great to see some pics of your furries  What colours do you breed? C.x.


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Hello catmad-ya need to be hereWelcome along and yes pics of your furrylot would be great


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

I totally agree with Catmad.

There is no more risk with close breeding than with outcrossing and probably far less providing that you know your lines well.
Its also a good way of testing your lines.


Outcrosses are more of a gamble because you could be introducing some new defect into your lines, unfortunately not all breeders out there are 100% honest when selling cats for breeding.

I dont know why inbreeding is still regarded as a bit of a taboo subject, its a natural thing for cats in the wild to do and they certainly havent bred themselves extinct because of it.


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## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*Hi Catmad, welcome to you*


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I agree you can have problems by out crossing to the unknown, every untried mating is a risk. Inbreeding may well give you short term gains if you know your lines inside out and have been breeding with those lines for 30 odd years and been diligent about removing problems from them during that time, but how many people are truly in that position nowadays.

If you start off with a purchased queen take her to an outside stud then mate the off spring of that mating together, or back to a parent, even if you have discussed the lines with the parents respective breeders there is no way you can say you can say you know those lines, even 5 years down the line, you would not be a position to say that.

A brother sister mating may well yield a large litter of kittens with no birth defects, still borns, underweight struggling kittens with the bonus of a couple of show stoppers thrown in, but to my mind the proof that the mating has worked can only be ascertained once the litter reaches their dotage. If that seemingly healthy litter are all dead by 5 years old even after a glittering show career, then that is not a successful mating.

Probably in the wild a certain amount of inbreeding does take place, but any weak offspring dies, its not nurtured through his/her problems and sold on for breeding taking with all his/her inherited problems with him/her into the future. I have seen that done time and time again.

 Hi btw


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Saikou said:


> I agree you can have problems by out crossing to the unknown, every untried mating is a risk. Inbreeding may well give you short term gains if you know your lines inside out and have been breeding with those lines for 30 odd years and been diligent about removing problems from them during that time, but how many people are truly in that position nowadays.
> 
> If you start off with a purchased queen take her to an outside stud then mate the off spring of that mating together, or back to a parent, even if you have discussed the lines with the parents respective breeders there is no way you can say you can say you know those lines, even 5 years down the line, you would not be a position to say that.
> 
> ...


Well put Kim!


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## Schimmel (May 17, 2008)

Well as this topic has been brought back to life, I'll now add my tuppence worth (when don't I lol) so here goes...

Our Kamora is the product of a mother/son mating. Her sire is Ashanti, her dam is Sambuca. Sambuca is Ashanti's mum. It's something that I personally make no apologies for whether people like it or not. I proved the strength of the line, with regards to one aspect, and I got a better pattern that I wanted. On the downside, the eyes became more deepset but I am already sorting that out with the future husband I have planned for Kamora. But a word of warning is that in order to line breed/inbreed you MUST know your lines back to front and know exactly what health issues are in them. If you don't know the lines, or if you have no idea of health history going back as far as you can possibly go, then do not line breed or inbreed. 

Rather than go into it fully as and I am tired tonight, on my web site I have a Kitten FAQ page which anyone can read and it's full of the sort of questions our kitten families ask us. This question is one of them and I've covered it on my site as follows: 

Do you mate cats who are related to each other?
Sometimes yes......................what you need to realise is that if you have cats from "problem free" lines, then by doing line breeding, or inbreeding, what you are effectively doing is doubling up on the good points. For example, a mating between a half brother x half sister, who both have reasonable eye colour, may end up producing cats with stunning eye colour. I am not, nor have I ever been, against line breeding. Provided that a breeder knows the lines behind their cats, knows the possible problems, avoids breeding any 2 related cats that have even the slightest inkling of a problem, then yes, line breeding and inbreeding can be a very good thing and can do an awful lot for the breed. I have never hidden the fact that we do line breeding and inbreeding because quite frankly, I've been working with these lines for a little while now and there are definitely times when I can see that close matings are going to make a huge difference with regards to improving on any possible faults and when I feel that certain close matings are safe, I will do them. I am fully against breeders who do line breeding or inbreeding of cats with known problems in the lines. To me, that is barbaric and the effect this has on kitten families is awful, but more importantly, imagine the effect this has on a litter of deformed or stillborn babies. No queen, and no baby should ever be put through that solely for the sake of producing a Gr Ch. 

I would like to think that ANY breeder who plans to do inbreeding or line breeding would not just go off what they have produced in the past, or go off the own cat family in their home, but I would like to think they also spoke to OTHER breeders who were involved in the lines behind their cats and do research first. 

By the same token..........I do not home kittens for breeding, all my kittens are homed to pet or pet/show homes only. The children in the mother/son mating I did were all petted out bar Kamora who we kept. So IF I find there are problems in 5 years time as a result from this mating, I know that it has not been contributed to further by me having sold kittens from that mating for breeding. So if a problem occurs, it stops with me, it's that simple.


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

I agree with you on certain points you have raised and there are arguments to be had on both sides.
I like to line breed my cats, other breeders I am friends with have also line bred their cats and they still have some of the resulting offspring 14-18 years down the line as proof. One of them has been breeding for approx 30 years so they should be qualified enough by now to be able to pass on their opinion on this type of breeding. As I said previously noboby should attempt to breed this way without researching their lines thoroughly first.
I do not sell my cats for breeding regardless of whether they are line bred or outcrossed as I prefer them to go as pets.

I also know of other breeders with a firm belief in outcrossing all the time that have ended up with one or two little 'unexpected surprises' in their litters.

At the end of the day it is up to each breeder to determine the best way forward for their cats.


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

Okay, I have a bit of a question on this...
How did we get certian breeds in the first place? Did it not use a fair amount of imbreeding to find the particular characterisitcs?

Secondly, I have an opinion (he he).
Imbreeding (by accident) does not normally cause a problem, particularly with brother and sister relationship. Fathers and daughters is less favourable (for want of a better word).
Repeated Imbreeding on purpose, can cause weaknesses and defects within the off-spring. As well as heightening good characteristics, you will also be heightening weaknesses.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

_


I wouldn't do it because I don't have the experience or knowlege. But those that do then why not?


_


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## catmad (May 1, 2008)

Hi,
Line breeding i feel can and is a very good thing, take for example one of my queen (Persian) she is due her kittens next week and i want to keep a kitten back from her to put back to her dad "why" because her dad is a Du Mont and there are very few of his kittens left in this country, plus Fina is an extream ultra face yet i never have to wipe her eyes, they dont run, she doesnt snort ect.. so i want to try and acheve this in future kittens, which will benifit kittens health wise, and i will get better results from line breeding than out crossing to lines which i dont know.

I feel that line breeding should be done, but i do agree with others only if you know your lines, i have'nt been line breeding long but work closely with a breeder that has done for 20+ years and 80% of my cats are from her lines, infact one of my other maiden girls is pregnant to her half-brother (my stud) so both me and their breeder are excited to see what they produce.

If you are thinking of doing it talk to breeders that do, im sure they would be only too happy to share there experiences.

PS, sorry no pics of my babys, cant get the site to load them up, will try again later....


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## Saynamore (Feb 28, 2008)

Sounds an excellent mating to me, bet you get some stunning results there. I thought I had researched my lines thoroughly when I tried it but apparently not enough when I lost the full litter  Good luck with you upcoming litter. C.x.


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## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*Chrissy, have you lost the little boy too!!?*


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I have only been breeding since 2002, and have researched my lines as far as I am able, but would never inbreed by design, because having done that research I know enough to know just how much I don't know if that makes sense. If you have been working 20 - 30 years with breeding lines known to you, then maybe the gamble is less, but I have seen too many relatively new breeders pronouncing that they know their lines, sorry but that is impossible. It takes a strong character to admit and deal with a potential problem which may mean neutering a cat kept for breeding. Too often heart problems, deformities, cancers are passed off as "one offs" which to my mind is as good as sweeping them under the carpet, and what about the seemingly innocuous problems that occur - in siamese severe gum problems, digestive weaknesses including food allergies. 

This is an extreme example but I can think of one litter bred, not as close as mother/son, brother/sister etc, but very "line bred" for want of a better description. The result was 8 seemingly healthy babies, all thrived, all went to new homes - as successful litter? Three did go for breeding, several were shown relatively successfully. By their third birthday only one remained alive! Even if none had gone for breeding, thats 7 lots of heartache handed out to kitten buyers who put their trust in that breeder. No kitten has a guarantee of reaching old age, no one can predict Mother Nature, but if that kitten is the result of designed inbreeding doesn't the breeder have to take some responsibility.

As far as I can see, at the end of the day, inbreeding or line breeding done in an established breed is only really done to cement a "look" of cat. It is a quick way of adding or improving on type alone, it is not adding or improving on genetic health or improving the gene pool for that breed - just my opinion.


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

I lost an entire litter of four within three days to a queen mated to my completely unrelated stud. At the second attempt she produced one stillborn kitten with the same stud, there were no repeat matings after that and at the time I did not have another stud available to mate her with.

The same stud has been mated with another of my queens from a similar line and they have consistently produced very large and healthy kittens between them. I have kept a female from each litter and none have ever had any health issues whatsoever, the only time they see a vet is for their boosters.

In some breeds there is not a large gene pool to pick and choose your lines from and any new lines brought in are usually at closed stud. Others have experimented and introduced a different colour into their lines in the belief that they are improving the breed when it has had the opposite effect. Many good old lines have been spoilt by this.
Its not for me Im afraid, Im a purist and only breed from solid silver lines.


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## Saynamore (Feb 28, 2008)

Selk67U2 said:


> *Chrissy, have you lost the little boy too!!?*


No Selks, lol, I was talking about my litter earlier this year, which was half brother to half sister. Little boy is a right chubba bubba


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## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*Oh, phew, thats ok then

Shame about your other litter. I don't really know a lot about line breeding as yet, still learning that one. The Norwegian breeders I know don't do close matings,(father to daughter, brother to sister ect) but say grandfather to grand daughter or similar is done sometimes.
I would'nt attempt any of it though unless I really knew what I was doing.

Hope the little lad continues to thrive, bless him. Have you thought of a name for him yet ? *


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## Saynamore (Feb 28, 2008)

I did last night but I had had a few glasses of wine  what do you think about Saynamore Victor Victorious? I think it sounds a bit silly now in the light of day


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## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*Haha, I like that*


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## Schimmel (May 17, 2008)

Saynamore said:


> I did last night but I had had a few glasses of wine  what do you think about Saynamore Victor Victorious? I think it sounds a bit silly now in the light of day


Nothing wrong with that name at all


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

This is the line of my Maine Coon's dam Boo Boo Bear Featherfoot, F, MCO n 09, 2004-03-18, DK/UK

Boo Boo Bear Featherfoot

note the inbreeding

The database is not only for Maine Coons but most breeds of cats


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