# The great Gender debate



## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Did anyone watch The Horizon program tonight about whether there is a difference between male and female brains?

The male presenter was researching whether it's genetic and the female one whether environment had a bigger affect.

They did tests where they dressed a young baby in opposite clothes ie a boy in pink and told the person in test with them it was a baby girl so of course the person offered her dolls to play with, they also found parents of male babies (even very young) expected them to be able to crawl better than the parents of female babies. There was an adjustable slope the parents adjusted to what incline they felt their baby boy or girl could manage to crawl down, all the parents of the boys set it at a much steeper incline than the parents of the baby girls.

But most interesting was they visited a safari park and laid out some cars/trucks and dolls for the barbary apes that had never seen 'human toys' or being influenced by gender advertising etc and the males all showed more interest in the cars/trucks and the females in the dolls!

I remember being a tomboy when I was young and much preferring to hang out with the boys playing cowboys and indians, riding bikes then stuck inside playing with a barbie doll and my parents 'tolerating it' until I reached a certain age where then I was expected to grow up because I was 'becoming a young woman', but made me think of how its more acceptable for a girl to be a 'tomboy' than it is for a boy to dress like a girl or want to play with girly toys.

Do we do it with our dogs as much as kids? Our Sasha was a chunky staffy and cos my dad walked her most and wouldn't have wanted to walk her in a load of pink accessories they kept her accessories quite 'gender-neutral' though she did have a pink bed and teddy in the house! (bought by my younger sister who has always been a very 'girly' girl) Had Sasha lived at my sisters house and been her dog no doubt everything would have been pink..lol! Though to be honest I reckon Sasha would have been a tomboy if she'd have been human cos she wasn't that interested in her 'girly' teddy and preferred a game of football!  

Would a small cute long haired breed (eg say a Maltese) that may look more feminine be more likely to be dressed in more girly colours and clothes, more 'cute' pink toys than say a large black female dog such as a rottweiler? ..or more short stocky breeds... basset hounds, bulldogs etc? ...just wondering if the gender bias extends to dogs? ..or whether we do it more with some breeds/types of dogs more than others?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Yes , very interesting programme. I don't think it proved much though .


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I don't think I'm gender biased with dogs, but I know I'm size biased even though I don't mean to be.

Phoebe and I play quite rough, we wrestle and play fight etc.. with my families yorkies though (all boys) I play cutesy games like peek a boo with a soft toy or rolling a ball gently along the floor. I just can't imagine myself lying on the floor wrestling with them in case I break them :Nailbiting


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I didn't see it but I just watched the monkey clip online - hmm. I don't believe there is any real evidence that there is a difference between the brains of men and women. That is the sort of thinking that was used as a basis for female oppression - our delicate lady brains after all could not be fully trusted and weren't up to too much strain. We were supposed to like cooking and babies and leave the doctoring and the engineering and the law-making and the voting to men.
Most gender stereotypes are dependent on country and culture so cannot be innate. Remember that in the 19th century pink was a 'boy's colour' (coming from red which is seen as a strong colour) and blue was all delicate and for girls. It's meaningless, let kids be kids and wear what they like and play with whatever toys they like.
I was quite 'tomboyish' as a child - but still liked Polly Pocket and My Little Pony - and as an adult woman I am fairly gender non-conforming (hate that term). In other words I'm a human being with likes and dislikes same as anyone, and I happen to have been born with female biology. That is what makes me a woman, nothing more nothing less.

I don't feel the need to deck my GSD bitch in pink so everyone can see she's a girl, I think that's silly.She is a _dog_. Likewise my mutt boy doesn't have to prove his masculinity with a camo print collar. But maybe there is some unconscious difference in how I treat them, who knows. With children I can see how it might be hard to resist due to socialisation and societal pressure.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I saw a programme once, quite a long time ago that actually measured brain activity and it proved that certain parts of the brain are more developed/active in females and others parts in male brains as a rule. However, when they measured the brain activity of males who had chosen in a caring profession, they found that the activity levels differed from average males.

It also showed that females are more likely to be able to multitask, but I can't remember how they had come to that conclusion


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I would expect there to be natural differences in most cases purely from a survival point of view, etc. Before we became "civilised" the males would hunt for food and the females looked after the offspring, so I guess nature steered us towards a certain direction. Not much point the other way round then as the babies would have starved cos the males didn't have mammory glands! 

If you're out in the woods hunting wild boar it pays to concentrate on one thing, but if you have a baby on the hip or toddlers running around whilst you tend the fire back at the camp you need to keep an eye on more than one thing.

Obviously, those boundaries/responsibilities are no longer restricted to either sex for the most part.

Had I been the higher wage earner it's likely my OH could have been a house husband just from a practical point of view. Not something I personally would have wanted though as I naturally wanted to be a full time mum - but the choice was there.

I was a bit of a tomboy when I was younger and probably still am as I live in jeans and am pretty handy with a power tool! 

My DS once wore a pink tutu at playgroup, but has ended up a "standard" heterosexual male (I think ) and Jack has a camo fleece and a pink teddy!

I'm all for letting kids choose their own toys, etc. but suspect forcing them to be brought up gender neutral could be just as detrimental to their natural development.


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

The apes probs chose the trucks coz the dolls looked like young apes, the caring of which is in their world a female thing. They should have chosen a different type of girl toy.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

picaresque said:


> I didn't see it but I just watched the monkey clip online - hmm. I don't believe there is any real evidence that there is a difference between the brains of men and women. That is the sort of thinking that was used as a basis for female oppression - our delicate lady brains after all could not be fully trusted and weren't up to too much strain. We were supposed to like cooking and babies and leave the doctoring and the engineering and the law-making and the voting to men.
> Most gender stereotypes are dependent on country and culture so cannot be innate. Remember that in the 19th century pink was a 'boy's colour' (coming from red which is seen as a strong colour) and blue was all delicate and for girls. It's meaningless, let kids be kids and wear what they like and play with whatever toys they like.
> I was quite 'tomboyish' as a child - but still liked Polly Pocket and My Little Pony - and as an adult woman I am fairly gender non-conforming (hate that term). In other words I'm a human being with likes and dislikes same as anyone, and *I happen to have been born with female biology. That is what makes me a woman, nothing more nothing less.*
> 
> I don't feel the need to deck my GSD bitch in pink so everyone can see she's a girl, I think that's silly.She is a _dog_. Likewise my mutt boy doesn't have to prove his masculinity with a camo print collar. But maybe there is some unconscious difference in how I treat them, who knows. With children I can see how it might be hard to resist due to socialisation and societal pressure.


you see I agree that this is what makes a woman a woman and a man a man, so what happens in the cases of Transvestites and Transexuals? There was an article in the papers once about a man who had a baby.. it was infact a woman who wanted to be a man, technically she still had the female reproductive system otherwise she couldn't possibly have had the baby. I can't remember whether she had the full op after the baby was born or not, but continued to live as a man. Then there was the issue of Transexuals being able to use the public toilets of the gender they feel they are. It would be interesting to see what their testosterone levels are and if their brains are different to the average male/female? Maybe the gay male has more female hormones? If this is true then it must be something they are born with rather than them simply choosing they want to be with or be the opposite sex, as was once believed...but if its hormonal can it be reversed by changing the balance of hormones artificially (ie by hormone medication or injections) from a young age?. I believe they undergo hormone treatment to 'change sex' so why can't it be used the other way? ..eg as a parent your young child was telling you he was gay or wanted to be a girl, why not give them more testosterone, to help them 'grow out' of it so their male brain becomes more male as they mature?

I think I've seen a TV advert for children that want to be the opposite sec called transgender kids or something! This is not a decision they should be making so young so is something 'biologically wrong' with them? Are their hormones at the wrong levels already at that age and that's what's affecting their brain development or was the hormone levels already 'wrong' from birth?

On the program a man who studied Autism was saying the people who were autistic who did the visual spatial tests where faster than the 'average male' and had been subjected to higher levels of testosterone in the womb. He believes Autism to be an extreme end of the male brain or something??? Is 'the way we are' determined before we're even born?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Uh oh, can see this turning nasty. 

I get what you are saying, that in a "normal" situation males and females are programmed a certain way, to behave as their physical gender determines, and mate with members of the opposite gender to reproduce. It could very well be that hormone imbalance is responsible for deviations from the norm. Sadly, anyone who views this scientifically, or tries to propose possible solutions is regarded as homophobic. Other variations from the norm for which treatments are proposed are hailed as scientific breakthroughs, yet any sexual variation is somehow treated as normal, and any suggestion of " treatment " is met with howls of outrage. 
For those who are happy with their lifestyle I'm not suggesting ripping them away from their loved ones, but for those unhappy or unsure of their sexuality, why shouldn't options/solutions be explored without people taking offence at the very idea and throwing around accusations of homophobia. A doctor who treats other illnesses is regarded with respect, yet anyone who dares suggest homosexuality, at least in some cases, could have a treatable root cause, is regarded as a social pariah. 

( And run...)


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Catharinem said:


> Uh oh, can see this turning nasty.
> 
> I get what you are saying, that in a "normal" situation males and females are programmed a certain way, to behave as their physical gender determines, and mate with members of the opposite gender to reproduce. It could very well be that hormone imbalance is responsible for deviations from the norm. Sadly, anyone who views this scientifically, or tries to propose possible solutions is regarded as homophobic. Other variations from the norm for which treatments are proposed are hailed as scientific breakthroughs, yet any sexual variation is somehow treated as normal, and any suggestion of " treatment " is met with howls of outrage.
> For those who are happy with their lifestyle I'm not suggesting ripping them away from their loved ones, but for those unhappy or unsure of their sexuality, why shouldn't options/solutions be explored without people taking offence at the very idea and throwing around accusations of homophobia. A doctor who treats other illnesses is regarded with respect, yet anyone who dares suggest homosexuality, at least in some cases, could have a treatable root cause, is regarded as a social pariah.
> ...


lol! .. yes exactly..purely from a scientific viewpoint!.. functioning of the brain etc. They did show differences in how the brains work on the program and how connections were made. The male brains seem to show connections from front to back of the brain within the same hemisphere. The female brain showed connections going across from one side of the brain to the other? Is that why females are meant to be better at multi-tasking for example? and males tend to be very focused on one thing?

Autism was mentioned too and there are alot more autistic males than females. In the case of the autistic females is it due to too much testosterone in the womb? and at what point is the amount of hormone going to cause the female to be more like a man or prefer to be male or to be autistic instead? ..does it depend on other features being present for example actual brain damage in the case of Autism? (many also have severe learning difficulties or may have physical/sensory disabilities too). The gifted autistic brain is very single minded eg The blind Autistic guy who is a music genius, think he was dubbed the 'human ipod' and can play anything after hearing it once, the artist guy who drew london skyscape after seeing it once from an helicopter, just a couple I've seen on TV in the past before and shown to be the very extreme of the male brain. ..could being able to monitor or change the level of hormones a baby is subjected in the womb prevent things like Autism?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

It would be interesting to know why there is too much testosterone occurring during pregnancy. Is it something outside of the womb causing this to happen? Something to do with modern living? Or something that was always happening but we are just more aware of autism and transgender people. I wonder if early humans had this happening to them.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

I found this a rather interesting read http://www.theplaidzebra.com/science-finally-supports-that-we-are-all-born-as-blank-slates-and-gender-is-merely-a-construct/
As someone who identifies as at least non-binary, I was highly aware of the gender moulding from my family growing up. Constantly being told I shouldn't do that, that's not for me, all because of the sex I was born as. A lot of people forget as well that your sex is between your legs, your gender however, is in your head.

And for those who still view homosexuality and transgenderism as some kind of illness or abnormality that must be righted - why?

Just because society today dictates that men born with this set of genitalia must look and behave like this, and woman born with that set of genitalia must look and behave like that, doesn't meant that anything between those two ends of the spectrum needs 'fixing'.

Those who make jokes about leaving a comment you know to be inflammatory and running off before it all kicks off - you _know_ why it gets such a strong reaction and yet you say it anyway instead of questioning those beliefs you hold. I do not need to be healed or cured or fixed. I do not fit the gender binary and guess what - not all humans are supposed to! There are not just XX and XY chromosomes! We were just taught that in science class because it was simpler in black and white than going into the grey area of gender.

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

And for those wondering why we're seeing more and more of these 'cases' emerging? People are freer than ever. For the most part, in recent generations we have been able to express ourselves truly, whereas 4 or 5 decades ago, a teenager simply couldn't come out as gay or trans to their parents; they'd likely be beaten and stuffed promptly back into the closet and told not to ever think such thoughts ever again or else. I know plenty of folks still going through that with their families at the moment but on the whole, we are much more free to express ourselves and explore our identities in ways no other generation has. LGBT folk have always been around, but often had to live in hiding or be exiled from the family home. Same for a lot of autistic people and those with mental disabilities - they often never left the house, the family feared shame and ridicule. That's why you never saw or heard of 'so many' before.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Argent said:


> I found this a rather interesting read http://www.theplaidzebra.com/science-finally-supports-that-we-are-all-born-as-blank-slates-and-gender-is-merely-a-construct/
> As someone who identifies as at least non-binary, I was highly aware of the gender moulding from my family growing up. Constantly being told I shouldn't do that, that's not for me, all because of the sex I was born as. A lot of people forget as well that your sex is between your legs, your gender however, is in your head.
> 
> And for those who still view homosexuality and transgenderism as some kind of illness or abnormality that must be righted - why?
> ...


Hmm, seems I'm not the intolerant one here. As I said, for those happy with themselves, in loving relationships, that's fine. For those confused or searching a reason for their sexuality, there are various possibilities as to how they reached where they are now. Hormones and pheromones are hugely important in sexuality and attraction to others, in humans as well as other species. To deny their influence and call scientific observations " beliefs", helps nobody. Ditto the fact that to reproduce naturally with your mate requires one of each gender. Not sure why fact is considered unspeakable, and those who do dare speak about it are labelled. If I said people of African origin tended to have darker skin that people from the Norse countries would that make me racist? 
I appreciate historically LBGT people have been unable to express themselves freely, but a scientific interest in how sexuality is formed is not the same as saying LBGT people should be imprisoned or worse. I'm sorry if your family wasn't supportive of you, but don't treat those with enquiring minds as the social pariahs LBGT were in the past.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Catharinem said:


> Hmm, seems I'm not the intolerant one here. As I said, for those happy with themselves, in loving relationships, that's fine. For those confused or searching a reason for their sexuality, there are various possibilities as to how they reached where they are now. Hormones and pheromones are hugely important in sexuality and attraction to others, in humans as well as other species. To deny their influence and call scientific observations " beliefs", helps nobody.
> I appreciate historically LBGT people have been unable to express themselves freely, but a scientific interest in how sexuality is formed is not the same as saying LBGT people should be imprisoned or worse. I'm sorry if your family wasn't supportive of you, but don't treat those with enquiring minds as the social pariahs LBGT were in the past.


A scientific interest in how sexuality is formed is one thing (one which I am rather interested in myself) but to channel that into somehow 'curing' homosexuality or transgenderism is where I draw the line between scientific discovery, and bigotry. Learning more about how hormones and pheromones affect the human body is absolutely amazing in the context of making transgender and non-binary folk feel comfortable in the bodies they were born with, but can you see where I am uncomfortable with the idea of it being used to 'cure' or 'fix' someone who doesn't fit societal norms?
I don't understand how I can be called the intolerant one when I'm the one who sees LGBT people as just that - people, not some illness or imbalance to be medically adjusted into a nice neat little pink or blue box.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> ...just wondering if the gender bias extends to dogs? ..


Of course it does. We are totally encouraged to buy pink and pretty for our female dogs and hunky camouflage collars for our males.  The only thing is, it makes not the slightest bit of difference to our dogs as it would appear man is the only animal who is obsessed by gender contraints. Gender is a societal construct. We make it up. If you are a female child who loves to climb trees you are a tom*boy.* If you are a male child who doesn't love climbing trees you are a sissy. What nonsense. How patronising. A child is a child.

And sexuality of course is something completely different.

Of course hormones play a part in who we are ... I have only ever studied the effect of hormones on animals. Including In utero .... and yes, hormones shape body frame, musculature and the way we tackle life. Animals just accept that it';s the way life is. Only man is obsessed with finding answers to what he considers a flaw in construct.

J


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I can remember reading something a while back that femals puppies can be influenced by the testosterone if she is surrounded by male puppies in the uterine horn. Don't know if this has been descounted by now


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

Phoenix Rising said:


> you see I agree that this is what makes a woman a woman and a man a man, so what happens in the cases of Transvestites and Transexuals? There was an article in the papers once about a man who had a baby.. it was infact a woman who wanted to be a man, technically she still had the female reproductive system otherwise she couldn't possibly have had the baby. I can't remember whether she had the full op after the baby was born or not, but continued to live as a man. Then there was the issue of Transexuals being able to use the public toilets of the gender they feel they are. It would be interesting to see what their testosterone levels are and if their brains are different to the average male/female? Maybe the gay male has more female hormones? If this is true then it must be something they are born with rather than them simply choosing they want to be with or be the opposite sex, as was once believed...but if its hormonal can it be reversed by changing the balance of hormones artificially (ie by hormone medication or injections) from a young age?. I believe they undergo hormone treatment to 'change sex' so why can't it be used the other way? ..eg as a parent your young child was telling you he was gay or wanted to be a girl, why not give them more testosterone, to help them 'grow out' of it so their male brain becomes more male as they mature?
> 
> I think I've seen a TV advert for children that want to be the opposite sec called transgender kids or something! This is not a decision they should be making so young so is something 'biologically wrong' with them? Are their hormones at the wrong levels already at that age and that's what's affecting their brain development or was the hormone levels already 'wrong' from birth?
> 
> On the program a man who studied Autism was saying the people who were autistic who did the visual spatial tests where faster than the 'average male' and had been subjected to higher levels of testosterone in the womb. He believes Autism to be an extreme end of the male brain or something??? Is 'the way we are' determined before we're even born?


Nobody really knows why people are transgender or gay or whatever- they just are. Maybe it's to do with brain structure, hormone levels or whatever. 
I've done a bit of reading on it and there are several theories, biological and environmental. I personally believe it is is biological. There have been a few studies which say that trans women brains are like that of cis women and vice versa. Apparently there are differences between gay and straight males and lesbian and straight women brains, but I haven't really looked into it.

And btw, you don't just walk in and tell your doctor you're transgender and they give you hormone treatment. You have to go through a lot of therapy first.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Siskin said:


> I can remember reading something a while back that femals puppies can be influenced by the testosterone if she is surrounded by male puppies in the uterine horn. Don't know if this has been descounted by now


There are many studies on this with animals all showing influence to a lesser or greater degree....but the influence of Testosterone doesn't explain everything which tends to point to the fact that it's a lot more complex.

If I wanted to impose a gender construct on my dogs, to be honest I would see them all as gender fluid. People frequently call my female dogs 'he' (especially the stronger, pushy Cavalier and my Black Lab) and my male dog I have at the moment is often called 'she' (slightly anxious, very pretty, submissive Cocker Spaniel) which of course is gender sterotyping.

Luckily none of them care.

J


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Phoenix Rising said:


> you see I agree that this is what makes a woman a woman and a man a man, so what happens in the cases of Transvestites and Transexuals? There was an article in the papers once about a man who had a baby.. it was infact a woman who wanted to be a man, technically she still had the female reproductive system otherwise she couldn't possibly have had the baby. I can't remember whether she had the full op after the baby was born or not, but continued to live as a man. Then there was the issue of Transexuals being able to use the public toilets of the gender they feel they are. It would be interesting to see what their testosterone levels are and if their brains are different to the average male/female? Maybe the gay male has more female hormones? If this is true then it must be something they are born with rather than them simply choosing they want to be with or be the opposite sex, as was once believed...but if its hormonal can it be reversed by changing the balance of hormones artificially (ie by hormone medication or injections) from a young age?. I believe they undergo hormone treatment to 'change sex' so why can't it be used the other way? ..eg as a parent your young child was telling you he was gay or wanted to be a girl, why not give them more testosterone, to help them 'grow out' of it so their male brain becomes more male as they mature?
> 
> I think I've seen a TV advert for children that want to be the opposite sec called transgender kids or something! This is not a decision they should be making so young so is something 'biologically wrong' with them? Are their hormones at the wrong levels already at that age and that's what's affecting their brain development or was the hormone levels already 'wrong' from birth?
> 
> On the program a man who studied Autism was saying the people who were autistic who did the visual spatial tests where faster than the 'average male' and had been subjected to higher levels of testosterone in the womb. He believes Autism to be an extreme end of the male brain or something??? Is 'the way we are' determined before we're even born?


The simple fact is men can't have babies. It is a biological impossibility. It's one thing for people to respect someone's gender identity, use their chosen pronouns out of politeness etc and another altogether to have to collude in a mass delusion and pretend that female penises are a thing or that men can give birth.
Re: toilets - certain spaces are segregated by sex (not gender) for safety. I wouldn't sign that petition going around last year to have a pre-op (this fact wasn't widely reported in the media) transwoman put in a female prison. I understand that safety was an issue in a men's prison. Ok. There needs to be some solution for trans prisoners. But what about the safety of the women locked up with a violent criminal still in possession of their penis? No one cares.

I watched that programme on Channel 4 last night, Kids on the Edge: Gender Clinic. These kids need understanding and should be allowed to explore their identity, and the bullying and abuse they receive is not acceptable. However I am very concerned to see young children turned down the path of puberty blockers and hormones at such a young age. Most gender questioning children desist as they grow up but if they are medicalised before they get to that stage what damage has been done to their bodies? The full extent of it we just don't know yet and we are essentially experimenting. On children. We do know that prolonged use of cross sex hormones causes infertility. And there was poor Ash last night, eight years old iirc and biologically male, believing they could have a womb transplant and give birth one day. It is not fair to delude children like that. I'm prepared now to be called a bigot.


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

picaresque said:


> The simple fact is men can't have babies. It is a biological impossibility. It's one thing for people to respect someone's gender identity, use their chosen pronouns out of politeness etc and another altogether to have to collude in a mass delusion and pretend that female penises are a thing or that men can give birth.
> Re: toilets - certain spaces are segregated by sex (not gender) for safety. I wouldn't sign that petition going around last year to have a pre-op (this fact wasn't widely reported in the media) transwoman put in a female prison. I understand that safety was an issue in a men's prison. Ok. There needs to be some solution for trans prisoners. But what about the safety of the women locked up with a violent criminal still in possession of their penis? No one cares.
> 
> I watched that programme on Channel 4 last night, Kids on the Edge: Gender Clinic. These kids need understanding and should be allowed to explore their identity, and the bullying and abuse they receive is not acceptable. However I am very concerned to see young children turned down the path of puberty blockers and hormones at such a young age. Most gender questioning children desist as they grow up but if they are medicalised before they get to that stage what damage has been done to their bodies? The full extent of it we just don't know yet and we are essentially experimenting. On children. We do know that prolonged use of cross sex hormones causes infertility. And there was poor Ash last night, eight years old iirc and biologically male, believing they could have a womb transplant and give birth one day. It is not fair to delude children like that. I'm prepared now to be called a bigot.


Children are not given cross sex hormones. I kind of agree with you in regards to puberty blockers but it is a double edged sword. Going through puberty of the gender you believe you are not, would be incredibly difficult and traumatising for a child who genuinely believes they are the opposite gender.

About prisoners, I think they should be put in the prison that matches their genitalia. So a transwoman who has had an operation should be in a female prison and vice versa. For pre op transgender people, it would probably be safest to put them in an area of the prison away from others, which isn't really fair, but I'm not sure what the solution would be!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

picaresque said:


> The simple fact is men can't have babies. It is a biological impossibility. It's one thing for people to respect someone's gender identity, use their chosen pronouns out of politeness etc and another altogether to have to collude in a mass delusion and pretend that female penises are a thing or that men can give birth.
> Re: toilets - certain spaces are segregated by sex (not gender) for safety. I wouldn't sign that petition going around last year to have a pre-op (this fact wasn't widely reported in the media) transwoman put in a female prison. I understand that safety was an issue in a men's prison. Ok. There needs to be some solution for trans prisoners. But what about the safety of the women locked up with a violent criminal still in possession of their penis? No one cares.
> 
> I watched that programme on Channel 4 last night, Kids on the Edge: Gender Clinic. These kids need understanding and should be allowed to explore their identity, and the bullying and abuse they receive is not acceptable. However I am very concerned to see young children turned down the path of puberty blockers and hormones at such a young age. Most gender questioning children desist as they grow up but if they are medicalised before they get to that stage what damage has been done to their bodies? The full extent of it we just don't know yet and we are essentially experimenting. On children. We do know that prolonged use of cross sex hormones causes infertility. And there was poor Ash last night, eight years old iirc and biologically male, believing they could have a womb transplant and give birth one day. It is not fair to delude children like that. I'm prepared now to be called a bigot.


To a large extent I agree with you, I do believe children need to be supported and understood if questioning their gender when younger and also allowed to grow up and at least start puberty before any major treatment is started. 
I believe that many children go through a period of wanting to be the opposite gender, I was very much a tomboy and wanted to have a boys name and look like a boy, but when I began to approach puberty I began to change again and preferred being female. I didn't go all girly and start dressing in pink, but boys stopped being playmates and became an entirely different kind of mate. Still very tomboyish, no frills for me, but definitely female.
But imagine if my parents took this childhood wish more seriously and some form of treatment had been given to me? I could have perhaps ended up a very confused adult.
It's easy for a little girl to want to be and act like a boy during a childhood, wearing trousers and being called a tomboy is socially acceptable, but a little boy wanting to wear dresses is more often or not laughed at and called names. Very sad.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

> These kids need understanding and should be allowed to explore their identity, *and the bullying and abuse they receive is not acceptable. *


But it exists and is in fact covertly supported by our societal gender construct. We are brought up to believe that boys behave like this and girls behave like this. And equally, boys must look like this and girls like this. And if you don't ....you must have a problem. You don't fit in. Jeez how would my dogs feel if we were as judgemental with them lol I'd have a Cavalier in therapy. Luckily as I said, dogs don't care about how you should look or behave.

I do agree that it is totally unnecessary for children to be pressurised into 'choosing' and for them to be offered treatment ....absolutely. But the issue doesn't begin with the result (i don't fit in) but with the forced binary criteria (Boy v Girl).

J


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

When I worked in a nursery school, one of the mums requested that the teachers and nursery assistants kept an eye on her son and made sure he wasn't playing with any of the "girls toys" as she thought he was already "too effeminate" and didn't want him "to turn gay"

I can only imagine how unhappy that little boy must have felt when at 3/4yrs old, he wasn't allowed to be himself


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Siskin said:


> To a large extent I agree with you, I do believe children need to be supported and understood if questioning their gender when younger and also allowed to grow up and at least start puberty before any major treatment is started.
> I believe that many children go through a period of wanting to be the opposite gender, *I was very much a tomboy and wanted to have a boys name and look like a boy, but when I began to approach puberty I began to change again and preferred being female. I didn't go all girly and start dressing in pink, but boys stopped being playmates and became an entirely different kind of mate. Still very tomboyish, no frills for me, but definitely female.
> But imagine if my parents took this childhood wish more seriously and some form of treatment had been given to me? I could have perhaps ended up a very confused adult.*
> It's easy for a little girl to want to be and act like a boy during a childhood, wearing trousers and being called a tomboy is socially acceptable, but a little boy wanting to wear dresses is more often or not laughed at and called names. Very sad.


I agree with this (bolded) completely I was going to put something similar myself. I was also a tomboy and have myself a more boyish nickname , but when I reached about 13 I was told it was time I grew up as my body was changing. I wasn't allowed the boys bike I wanted, I could have a bike but it would be appropriate for a girl. Of course I was mad at first but once the hormones started kicking in, I found myself making more female friends and leaving the male friends behind (and of course becoming more interested in them as boyfriends!) I too am glad my parents never took my early desire to be a boy seriously as I grew out of it. If parent's are starting treatments on kids before they've had chance to fully develop then how they are getting chance to 'grow out of it'?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Did you want to be a boy or did you just want to be allowed to do what boys do?


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Agree with @Siskin and @Phoenix Rising . I was a tomboy well into my teens (never have become a very girly girl, but do occasionally wear a skirt now!) and was also not interested in boys as early as all the other girls in my class. Because of this, I was told by an adult that I was a lesbian. In those days, kids my age didn't know what that meant, so I looked it up and it really messed with my mind. The thought of kissing boys was 'yuk' but the thought of kissing girls was even more 'yuk'. I'm sure the adult responsible thought they were being helpful, but it caused me a huge amount of stress. Funny thing is that she probably thought she was being terribly open-minded, but she was actually as closed-minded as they come...because she couldn't accept that a young girl who hated to wear skirts and liked playing cowboys and Indians and building forts could possibly grow into a straight woman!


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Jonescat said:


> Did you want to be a boy or did you just want to be allowed to do what boys do?


Me?... I guess I just wanted to do the same as my brothers as I had two older than me. I wanted a Grifter bike but my parents said it was a boys bike and I was getting too old to be pretending to be a boy! ..it wasn't that I was pretending to be a boy I just really liked that bike cos someone near us had one of the posh 'super grifters' that came in silver and gold and just really wanted one too!

By the time my youngest sister was noticing stuff like that I had hit my teens and most of my friends were girls and we were getting into putting on make up and doing hair and stuff and she always wanted to join in. I'm sure siblings influence us and it maybe that a girl with only brothers is more tomboyish and a boy growing up with mostly female household may have more opportunity to explore that side of him. (if his sisters dressed him up etc for fun)

Its interesting what someone put about a female puppy being influenced if all the other puppies around her were male? I never thought of that applying to dogs too!


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

I think there is some useful stuff to be learned from this public improvement information film.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Jonescat said:


> Did you want to be a boy or did you just want to be allowed to do what boys do?


I was allowed to do pretty much what I wanted to do as a child, mum was glad I was out of the house all day and not underfoot and bothering her, so I played boys games and did what they did as much as I wanted.

Actually what really bothered me happened when I was in my teens at school and we had to choose which options to take for CSE's. What I wanted to do, amongst other things, was technical drawing which only the boys were allowed to do. I was so angry when I was told I was not allowed and had to choose between cooking and needlework, neither of which I was bothered about. As it was I had to have special dispensation to allow me to do geography, biology and Art. But that's another kind of gender issue altogether.
I think it was falling in love with Paul McCartney at 13 that made me stop behaving like a boy


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Jonescat said:


> Did you want to be a boy or did you just want to be allowed to do what boys do?


I wonder if kids always know the difference? I used to say 'I wish I was a boy' but I don't think I had any desire to be a boy physically - it was just that I preferred boys toys and games to girls ones, boys weren't expected to be 'ladylike' and they didn't have to wear skirts and long hair that got in the way of climbing trees, or spend time dressing up in silly clothes or playing with dolls! Boys just seemed to have more fun. I think it was the freedom they had that I wanted, not to be like them biologically. But because that freedom seemed inseparable from their sex, I wanted to be a boy.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Siskin said:


> I was allowed to do pretty much what I wanted to do as a child, mum was glad I was out of the house all day and not underfoot and bothering her, so I played boys games and did what they did as much as I wanted.
> 
> Actually what really bothered me happened when I was in my teens at school and we had to choose which options to take for CSE's. What I wanted to do, amongst other things, was technical drawing which only the boys were allowed to do. I was so angry when I was told I was not allowed and had to choose between cooking and needlework, neither of which I was bothered about. As it was I had to have special dispensation to allow me to do geography, biology and Art. But that's another kind of gender issue altogether.
> I think it was falling in love with Paul McCartney at 13 that made me stop behaving like a boy


We had this at our secondary school in the first 2 years girls and boys took stuff like metalwork, woodwork, cookery etc.. In the third year metalwork, and woodwork etc were removed for girls. PE was also done separately and girls had hockey, trampolining, gymnastics. netball, rounders... we weren't allowed to do football, basketball, rugby, cricket with the boys and they had circuit training instead of gymnastics.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> But it exists and is in fact covertly supported by our societal gender construct. We are brought up to believe that boys behave like this and girls behave like this. And equally, boys must look like this and girls like this. And if you don't ....you must have a problem. You don't fit in. Jeez how would my dogs feel if we were as judgemental with them lol I'd have a Cavalier in therapy. Luckily as I said, dogs don't care about how you should look or behave.
> 
> I do agree that it is totally unnecessary for children to be pressurised into 'choosing' and for them to be offered treatment ....absolutely. But the issue doesn't begin with the result (i don't fit in) but with the forced binary criteria (Boy v Girl).
> 
> J


Well binary sex is the reality. But absolutely boys should be able to do 'girl' things and girls should be able to do 'boy' things, without prejudice. I just don't think that a boy who likes barbies and makeup therefore must be a girl.
There is some doublethink going on (I don't mean you or this thread) where we're told to break free of gender, not put people in boxes but what's really happening is gender stereotypes are being reinforced by saying (for example) that men who like women's clothing are actually women. Eddie Izzard used to say 'They're not women's clothes, they're mine'. Unfortunately he's now done a u turn and reckons he has 'girl genes' and 'boy genes'. The girl genes presumably the ones responsible for his fondness for makeup


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Nettles said:


> When I worked in a nursery school, one of the mums requested that the teachers and nursery assistants kept an eye on her son and made sure he wasn't playing with any of the "girls toys" as she thought he was already "too effeminate" and didn't want him "to turn gay"
> 
> I can only imagine how unhappy that little boy must have felt when at 3/4yrs old, he wasn't allowed to be himself


This is really sad, poor kid.


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

rona said:


> I saw a programme once, quite a long time ago that actually measured brain activity and it proved that certain parts of the brain are more developed/active in females and others parts in male brains as a rule. However, when they measured the brain activity of males who had chosen in a caring profession, they found that the activity levels differed from average males.
> 
> It also showed that females are more likely to be able to multitask, but I can't remember how they had come to that conclusion


This is the nature vs nurture thing. All this happens, but is it because of they different ways males and female have been brought up. Have their brains been trained to respond that way?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Autism was mentioned too *and there are alot more autistic males than females.* In the case of the autistic females is it due to too much testosterone in the womb? and at what point is the amount of hormone going to cause the female to be more like a man or prefer to be male or to be autistic instead? ..does it depend on other features being present for example actual brain damage in the case of Autism? (many also have severe learning difficulties or may have physical/sensory disabilities too). The gifted autistic brain is very single minded eg The blind Autistic guy who is a music genius, think he was dubbed the 'human ipod' and can play anything after hearing it once, the artist guy who drew london skyscape after seeing it once from an helicopter, just a couple I've seen on TV in the past before and shown to be the very extreme of the male brain. ..could being able to monitor or change the level of hormones a baby is subjected in the womb prevent things like Autism?


This is actually not the case - it is likely that as many females as males have a form of autistic spectrum condition (ASC) but males are far more likely to be formally diagnosed. And further, white, middle class males are more likely to be diagnosed than for instance black working class males. The reasons behind this are complex but there is an idea that because teenage females are thought to be more emotionally mature than their male counterparts they can find strategies to cope better with the difficulties having an ASC can present. A diagnosis is therefore not required or requested.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

bearcub said:


> This is actually not the case - it is likely that as many females as males have a form of autistic spectrum condition (ASC) but males are far more likely to be formally diagnosed. And further, white, middle class males are more likely to be diagnosed than for instance black working class males. The reasons behind this are complex but there is an idea that because teenage females are thought to be more emotionally mature than their male counterparts they can find strategies to cope better with the difficulties having an ASC can present. A diagnosis is therefore not required or requested.


I thought it was 3 males to every 1 female or something like that?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I thought it was 3 males to every 1 female or something like that?


Yes you are quite right; there will be approximately three diagnosed males to every one diagnosed female. However as stated above, diagnosis is not necessarily indicative of prevalence.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

bearcub said:


> This is actually not the case - it is likely that as many females as males have a form of autistic spectrum condition (ASC) but males are far more likely to be formally diagnosed. And further, white, middle class males are more likely to be diagnosed than for instance black working class males. The reasons behind this are complex but there is an idea that because teenage females are thought to be more emotionally mature than their male counterparts they can find strategies to cope better with the difficulties having an ASC can present. A diagnosis is therefore not required or requested.


Do you know what research this is based on? I've volunteered and worked with young people on the autistic spectrum for 20 years and one of my friends is a highly regarded expert in this area - she maintains that there are more boys than girls with autism, and although I do not have her expertise, I regularly spot children who I believe have ASD - and the vast majority of them are male. I know a number of people with ASD, both male and female, who have great coping strategies to the point where most people don't realise they are autistic, but anyone who has spent a lot of time around people with autism would know they are. So I'm not sure the gender imbalance my friend and I are seeing is due to the girls having better coping strategies. And this would still not explain why the boys don't 'catch up' with the girls later on in life.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

CuddleMonster said:


> Do you know what research this is based on? I've volunteered and worked with young people on the autistic spectrum for 20 years and one of my friends is a highly regarded expert in this area - she maintains that there are more boys than girls with autism, and although I do not have her expertise, I regularly spot children who I believe have ASD - and the vast majority of them are male. I know a number of people with ASD, both male and female, who have great coping strategies to the point where most people don't realise they are autistic, but anyone who has spent a lot of time around people with autism would know they are. So I'm not sure the gender imbalance my friend and I are seeing is due to the girls having better coping strategies. And this would still not explain why the boys don't 'catch up' with the girls later on in life.


This is research that a team of psychiatrists and psychologists at the Trust I work for has undertaken. However this website gives a general overview: http://www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/gender.aspx


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Cant say Ive ever heard or seen it written as ASC, it is widely known and recognised the world over as ASD
disorder - disruption to regular bodily structure and function. 
condition -an abnormal state of health that interferes with normal or regular feelings of wellbeing.

ergo
my sons autism is a disorder
however
his diabetes is a condition

I too would like to know what you have based your hypothesis on
so
named and authenticated research please


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

I'm going to give my experience of childhood and puberty for contrast to what others have added;

I was born female, raised female. In my early years I liked singing and music, dressing up, baking with Nan and watching and playing Power Rangers. I had a microscope, rock samples and toy dinosaurs alongside my ponies and teddy bears, got a blue bike and even a scalextric set one Christmas. My interests were varied and my parents never stopped me liking what I liked. However, when I reached say, 9 or 10, I carried on doing what I was doing, running and playing topless in shorts in the summer with my boy cousins with a paddling pool in the yard, when I was stopped and told "girls don't do that - cover up" by an aunt. My world came crashing down. What the hell was wrong with my body, which as far as I could see, looked just like my cousins' in the torso at least. What was it about me, about being a girl that was so disgusting that I had to cover up? I was so ashamed and I didn't know why! I was a tomboy through and through, and until the adults started making a fuss, I was perfectly happy just being myself.

Then puberty hit and I was horrified. Every time something changed or grew, it hurt and looked awful and I hated it. It wasn't what I wanted to become. I'd stare at myself in the mirror, crying in horror, thinking there was something wrong with me. I kept it to myself, after all, who could possibly understand? When I started secondary school, I was sent to a 'good church school' ...all girls...I didn't want to go, but my parents insisted this was the best school I could go to. So, leaving behind all of my mixed primary school friends, I felt like I was thrown to the lions.

Those 6 years I spent there were tough. I was trying to find myself whilst trapped inside a system that permitted you only look a certain way within a very narrow set of criteria. I became depressed, withdrawn, defensive, secretive and angry, I self-harmed, spent so many nights screaming crying into my pillow. I still hated my changing body, I didn't fit in with anyone enough to have any sort of meaningful friendship, and I couldn't wait to get out.

When I hit college, I was incredibly insecure and shy. I did my best at my studies and found people were so much more expressive here, I could experiment and be safe. And my role model came in the form of an actor, who I thought I admired and had a crush on, when in fact, I wanted to _be_ him. I mirrored his haircut, his fashion sense, his mannerisms, and suddenly I was happy, I felt comfortable and confident and that is when it hit me that perhaps I was never meant to be strictly female.

I started to get into cosplay (i.e making costumes of anime/cartoon characters and going to conventions) and nearly every costume I made was for a male character. I felt like 'me', and people were finally seeing me as I wanted them to, and it bled into my real life, I had my hair cut shorter and wore baggy hoodies etc, and got the warmest feeling when I 'passed' in pubic.
I didn't know hormones were a thing, and that was ten years ago! I've been thinking hard about it for the best part of four years rather seriously as I know it's a huge step and I'd have to come out to my parents. Part of me thinks I've done so well hiding it this long, why do I need to go through with it at all, but there's always that little dark blot of unhappiness that spreads every now and then, reminding me that nobody sees me as I really am, not really. I can stamp it down and ignore it for so long, but no doubt a bout of depression will come around again and I'll wish I'd been put on a GIC waiting list sooner. I would love to not have to wear a binder, to have a deeper voice and be regarded the way I feel inside, but I can only go ahead with it when I finally feel safe to do so, and now is not that time.

As a side note, when entering a gendered public bathroom, I can guarantee you the most scared person in there is the trans person.

Trans people are just people, not perverts. It's not a fetish, it's their identity! It's not make-believe, it's their IDENTITY. It's not a delusion - it's their *identity.*


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

@Argent 
you deserve 10 million likes and an infinity of reps [if we still had them]


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Thank you Argent, that must have taken a lot of courage to write that and post onto a public forum.

It has helped me to understand how hard it must be to exist in a world where you are supposed to conform


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

bearcub said:


> This is research that a team of psychiatrists and psychologists at the Trust I work for has undertaken. However this website gives a general overview: http://www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/gender.aspx


This overview looks at various theories for the gender imbalance in diagnosis - it doesn't actually say that a disproportionate number of autistic boys are diagnosed compared to autistic girls.

I actually wonder if the gender imbalance isn't even bigger than we think it is - society still expects girls to be more quiet, well-behaved and socially adept than it does boys. I know a couple of girls who were diagnosed as high-functioning Asperger's in their early teens after their parents were concerned by 'problems' that I doubt they would even have noticed in sons!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Cant say Ive ever heard or seen it written as ASC, it is widely known and recognised the world over as ASD
> disorder - disruption to regular bodily structure and function.
> condition -an abnormal state of health that interferes with normal or regular feelings of wellbeing.
> 
> ...


We use 'ASC' rather than 'ASD' in our Trust as it is regarded by clinicians as more neutral. My understanding although fairly basic as I do not work exclusively within the ASC service is the diagnostic manuals will be updated in the near future to provide clearer direction because (as you have highlighted) there appears to be confusion amongst clinicians between the appropriate use of disorder and condition.

To make it clear this is not MY hypothesis; I am no position to make one(!). I have provided a link that outlines this school of thinking and if you are genuinely interested I would be happy to give you the contact details for my Trust's Research & Development dept via pm.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I saw this today on Twitter, relevant to the whole pink/blue discussion

http://genderedinnovations.stanford.edu/case-studies/games.html#tabs-2

'Parents' attitudes also reinforce stereotypes. For example, the designers of KidCom, a communication game made specifically for girls age 7-12 in the Netherlands, found that girls did not like pink but they designed the device in a pinkish color anyway because this best satisfied the (paying) parents' expectations (Sørensen et al., 2011).'

Argent, that was an incredibly eloquent and thought provoking post.



Argent said:


> As a side note, when entering a gendered public bathroom, I can guarantee you the most scared person in there is the trans person.


How can you know this?



Argent said:


> Trans people are just people, not perverts. It's not a fetish, it's their identity! It's not make-believe, it's their IDENTITY. It's not a delusion - it's their *identity.*


I respect that. However gender identity is a belief system that shouldn't be enforced on anyone. Lesbians are right now being called bigots because they don't want to sleep with male bodied people - how is that right or progressive?
Don't forget Rachel Dolezal had her identity too.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

picaresque said:


> I saw this today on Twitter, relevant to the whole pink/blue discussion
> 
> http://genderedinnovations.stanford.edu/case-studies/games.html#tabs-2
> 
> ...


Interesting read I used to play video games with my brothers on the early Nintendo's and Sega's. I found as i got older I preferred the Nintendo characters than the more realistic one's as games got more involved. Though I also liked games such as Final Fantasy 7 (with cartoonised characters) but not the later one's which were much more realistic, more fighting and the worlds were too big and involved and of course I didn't have as much time to play either being at college by then or starting work etc.

I didn't play games for years but when I did get another console it was Wii for the Wii fit game and use it for exercise and workouts when I couldn't be bothered to go to the gym. Other than that or playing group/party games when friends come over it doesn't get used.

I noticed the latest games for playstation and X Box are mainly all include fighting, cars, football & war games and there are few games I (as a female) would play on those consoles. Anyone else remember when Playstation did a pink version? ..and there was more games like crash bandicoot, spryro the dragon, super bubble pop (or whatever they called it) Mama's Kitchen...you get the idea! There seems very few of those types of games for PS4 and the latest X box now, though Nintendo still do more cutesy games for their consoles, which is not surprising really as Mario/Super Mario World is probably their biggest and most famous franchise and the Japanese seems to like the cartoon and manga characters. Be interesting to know if there was a more equal number of male and female players in Japan compared to other countries as the games like Karaoke, cooking games, Mario and other games with cutesy characters and stuff seem to be more popular over there?


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

picaresque said:


> Argent, that was an incredibly eloquent and thought provoking post.
> 
> Argent said: ↑
> As a side note, when entering a gendered public bathroom, I can guarantee you the most scared person in there is the trans person.
> ...


I can verify what argent said, Having lived alongside a woman who is a mf transitioning, she is *ALWAYS* scared, as are most of the trangender people ive had the pleasure to meet and socialise with, the last thing any want is to be challenged, all they want is to go about their business as mr or mrs average

and of course Lesbians arent drawn to male bodied individuals, the fact they identify themselves as Lesbian means they* are* attracted to women *not* men.

Please everyone also remember there is a vast difference between transgenderism and transexualism, at the very basic level [and there are multiples of them] transexuals are about the sexual feeling and arousal given by the thrill of wearing womens clothes i [women can always get away with wearing mens, its accepted in society] whereas transgenderism is a deep hormonal identification of the person, whether it be mf or fm, from and even before birth, very much akin to being gay or lesbian

edit because i left a whole word out


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

picaresque said:


> Argent, that was an incredibly eloquent and thought provoking post.
> 
> Argent said: ↑
> 
> ...


did you actually read @Argent 's post, I think you can easily see how they know


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bearcub said:


> We use 'ASC' rather than 'ASD' in our Trust as it is regarded by clinicians as more neutral. My understanding although fairly basic as I do not work exclusively within the ASC service is the diagnostic manuals will be updated in the near future to provide clearer direction because (as you have highlighted) there appears to be confusion amongst clinicians between the appropriate use of disorder and condition.
> 
> To make it clear this is not MY hypothesis; I am no position to make one(!). I have provided a link that outlines this school of thinking and if you are genuinely interested I would be happy to give you the contact details for my Trust's Research & Development dept via pm.


Sorry but Autism is a DISORDER of the brain, a disruption of its normal function [hate that word]

his feelings of regular wellbeing [like everyones] is just that, his, you or I my not agree with him feeling this way, but if he is happy then, in his world, he is happy

Autism is not a condition, it cannot be 'fixed', medicated or anything else to make a person on the spectrum neurotypical
and
having asked my son that very question, he has always said he wouldnt want it anyway, his autism is part of him as much as his green eyes and his 6ft8" height
He wouldnt feel Adam without it


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Sorry but Autism is a DISORDER of the brain, a disruption of its normal function [hate that word]
> 
> his feelings of regular wellbeing [like everyones] is just that, his, you or I my not agree with him feeling this way, but if he is happy then, in his world, he is happy
> 
> ...


I have given you an explanation which you have disagreed with. There's no need to disagree further as I clearly have no control over how some organisations name their autism services or refer to autism as.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> and of course Lesbians arent drawn to male bodied individuals, the fact they identify themselves as Lesbian means they* are* attracted to women *not* men.


But this is happening - lesbians who aren't attracted to transwomen are being hounded as bigots.



mrs phas said:


> Please everyone also remember there is a vast difference between transgenderism and transexualism, at the very basic level [and there are multiples of them] transexuals are about the sexual feeling and arousal given by the thrill of wearing womens clothes i [women can always get away with wearing mens, its accepted in society] whereas transgenderism is a deep hormonal identification of the person, whether it be mf or fm, from and even before birth, very much akin to being gay or lesbian


This is not my understanding. Transsexuality and transgenderism are essentially the same thing, maybe with some ideological differences. Transvestism is a desire to wear clothes traditionally of the opposite sex, sometimes there is a sexual element to this. Autogynephilia is a motivator for some MTT individuals, this is where they are sexually aroused by the idea of having a female body and being validated as a woman. The problem comes where their wish to be validated clashes with the rights of another oppressed group - women. Women in public bathrooms and changing rooms, yes, also prisons, hospital wards and psychiatric units, refuges for victims of rape and domestic violence. Male to female transpeople commit crimes at the same rate as other men. This is becoming a problem where their crimes (inc. violent crimes) are reported and documented as being committed by women. Here is a very recent example from the US
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/11/17/triple-murder-of-lesbian-couple-california/

and another in the UK
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/22/champion-fell-runner-lauren-jeska-admits-attempted

Google Stephonknee Wolscht. This person, a father of seven, now identifies as a six year old girl. In that case let's open up the kindergarten classes.



mrs phas said:


> did you actually read @Argent 's post, I think you can easily see how they know


I see how they know their own experience. I don't see how they can speak for everyone, trans or not. Transpeople might be scared of (male) violence in public toilets. Why is it inconceivable that women might be afraid of encountering male bodied people in the ladies?

I know what some of you must be thinking now - 'god what a nasty bigoted woman'. I am not transphobic, I fully support their right to be free from violence and discrimination and to have the same human rights as anyone. A few years ago I would have blindly agree with the phrase 'transwomen are women' - even if deep down I knew this wasn't true. Until I realised the lengths to which women were being erased and our rights being thrown under the bus for this more fashionable cause.
We can't even define our own bodies any longer









I know I am not the only one who is aware that the emperor is stark bollock naked here.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

> for this more fashionable cause.


I'm not sure what is fashionable about it? Crossing gender boundaries has been around as long as the human race has .....as i said before it's quite natural in animals. My dogs are lucky because they have never heard of the label transgender...they are given a biological sex at birth and then they just express the way they feel without judgement. They are also fluid sexually, too ...but thats another debate!

As for safety in toilets/changing rooms, that's a crime issue not a gender issue.

J


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I'm not sure what is fashionable about it? Crossing gender boundaries has been around as long as the human race has .....as i said before it's quite natural in animals. My dogs are lucky because they have never heard of the label transgender...they are given a biological sex at birth and then they just express the way they feel without judgement. *They are also fluid sexually*, too ...but thats another debate!
> 
> As for safety in toilets/changing rooms, that's a crime issue not a gender issue.
> 
> J


Are you saying dogs can be gay too?

With regard to toilets, I'm sorry but I would not want to go into a ladies toilets knowing a man was in there, regardless of whether *he thought *he was female or not, if he has the male anatomy he is male! .Public toilets are separate for a reason!

There are perverts out there who would and could take advantage of this situation and go into ladies toilets dressed as a female just to get in, not because they believe they are female, just to use it as a way in to then try and rape other women or to get close to young girls...which could then have consequences for the trans communities especially with today's vigilante mentality, they could find themselves being hunted down incase they would do the same - even if they had never had such thoughts.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Are you saying dogs can be gay too?


I believe a study once showed that sheep can be gay and even show same-sex partner preference even when a ram is presented.

Animals the world over practice homosexuality ....and my own dogs over the years have been no exception. Full on too!  Whether this makes them exclusively gay or whether they just love to experiment I have no idea.

J


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Are you saying dogs can be gay too?
> 
> With regard to toilets, I'm sorry but I would not want to go into a ladies toilets knowing a man was in there, regardless of whether *he thought *he was female or not, if he has the male anatomy he is male! .Public toilets are separate for a reason!
> 
> There are perverts out there who would and could take advantage of this situation and go into ladies toilets dressed as a female just to get in, not because they believe they are female, just to use it as a way in to then try and rape other women or to get close to young girls...which could then have consequences for the trans communities especially with today's vigilante mentality, they could find themselves being hunted down incase they would do the same - even if they had never had such thoughts.


There are perverts out there who would try and take advantage of the situation, but I can assure you those perverts will be there regardless of which bathroom a trans person uses. I really don't understand your two paragraphs kind of argue one another. The first shows transphobia in that you refuse to call a trans woman by her correct pronouns and that you deny the fact that gender is separate from sex, then in your second paragraph go on to separate perverts from trans people and point out how damaging perverts are to the trans community, ruining their repuation within the general public and possibly causing people to point the finger at them (i.e. what you did in the first paragraph)

You clearly understand the implications a few disgusing pervs have on the safety and inclusion of trans women but still insist that penis owners are packing a dangerous weapon in their pants, which could be construed that you think all men and penis-owners are dangerous.

You can't say "not all men are dangerous though, only perverts" and lump trans women in with the perverts then say "oh but these pervs are bad for the trans community too" which is it?

Also, generally speaking, you wouldn't know if there was a trans woman in the toilets unless you're the one trying to look at others' gentials through the bathroom stalls. If you were, I think that would make you the pervert.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm sorry, I'm genuinely not understanding this argument about toilets and perverts.

"A male pervert could dress as a woman just to get into the female toilets" 

If a pervert is going to put on women's clothes to gain access to female bathrooms, then it could happen whether trans women are permitted to use female bathrooms or not. I have never once had a bouncer stand at the doors of a female public bathroom demanding I prove I have lady parts before I can enter.. so how would anyone know?


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Argent said:


> There are perverts out there who would try and take advantage of the situation, but I can assure you those perverts will be there regardless of which bathroom a trans person uses. I really don't understand your two paragraphs kind of argue one another. The first shows transphobia in that you refuse to call a trans woman by her correct pronouns and that you deny the fact that gender is separate from sex, then in your second paragraph go on to separate perverts from trans people and point out how damaging perverts are to the trans community, ruining their repuation within the general public and possibly causing people to point the finger at them (i.e. what you did in the first paragraph)
> 
> You clearly understand the implications a few disgusing pervs have on the safety and inclusion of trans women but still insist that penis owners are packing a dangerous weapon in their pants, which could be construed that you think all men and penis-owners are dangerous.
> 
> ...


I disagree I have seen some 'women' who are clearly men dressed in womens clothes! .and it is obvious without having to look any further, in the same way you can sometimes just tell by looking at a male that he is gay because of features/mannerisms etc. I don't hang out with any gay people as there just aren't any in my immediate circle of family/friends but when we had a new guy at work I could tell straight away, as could most of the staff!..and we were right!

Usually a 'pervert' is a male who likes to spy on women without them knowing or assault or abuse them in some fashion. They are usually men who are obsessed with getting their way with whichever woman they choose to prey on. Some may go to more extraordinary lengths to achieve this (such as dressing up to get into a woman only environment in order to stalk someone) So of course perverts are more dangerous to women, than a man who is not, or would not dream of doing such things!

Women who could have suffered abuse in the past from males should be safe in a public toilet. From their point of view I'm sure they do see the male penis as a weapon regardless of how the man is dressed (if they know it's definitely a man) and wonder why a man had gone to such lengths to get into a woman's toilets/changing rooms! I know females who feel safer with gay males because they know they aren't sexually attracted to them and so they are 'safe'. Once someone has assaulted you and forced you into something you did not want to do then it takes a while before you feel 'safe' around any man when it's just the two of you.

A trans man can still be attracted to women, some are married with kids and dress up in private for many years before 'coming out'. If they've had the full operation and have full female body and features I probably wouldn't realise straightaway and would see 'her' as a female, but some people you can just tell its just a man (anatomically male) dressed in a woman's clothing, if I dressed in my dads clothes or my brothers I would still be female underneath and would look like a woman dressed as a man.. though I can't imagine dressing as a man and trying to convince myself and everyone around me I was one, as I don't want to be (despite being a 'tomboy' as a child). Most people grow out of it given chance, so there must be something in the brains of those that don't. A different level of hormones from a young age would explain this and why their brains then developed differently, so they never feel they are in the right body.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2016)

Nettles said:


> I'm sorry, I'm genuinely not understanding this argument about toilets and perverts.
> 
> "A male pervert could dress as a woman just to get into the female toilets"
> 
> If a pervert is going to put on women's clothes to gain access to female bathrooms, then it could happen whether trans women are permitted to use female bathrooms or not. I have never once had a bouncer stand at the doors of a female public bathroom demanding I prove I have lady parts before I can enter.. so how would anyone know?


I don't either.

Nor do I understand why all of a sudden this becomes a problem when transgender people ask for equal treatment. 
All these supposed upright citizens worried about their daughters going in to a bathroom where there might be a penis, but they've never worried about their sons going in to a bathroom where there are penises?

As the mother of a son, I can assure you, when my son was too old to accompany me in to the female public restrooms but awfully young still to go in to the male restrooms by himself, I was the creepy woman standing outside the bathroom asking "are you okay honey" and making sure my presence was well known.

I really despise the underlying narrative that the people you have to watch out for are the ones outside of the "norm" when history has taught us, those who fit in the best are the ones to watch out for the most.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> If they've had the full operation and have full female body and features I probably wouldn't realise straightaway and would see 'her' as a female, but some people you can just tell its just a man (anatomically male) dressed in a woman's clothing, if I dressed in my dads clothes or my brothers I would still be female underneath and would look like a woman dressed as a man.. though I can't imagine dressing as a man and trying to convince myself and everyone around me I was one, as I don't want to be (despite being a 'tomboy' as a child). Most people grow out of it given chance, so there must be something in the brains of those that don't. A different level of hormones from a young age would explain this and why their brains then developed differently, so they never feel they are in the right body.


believe me, my trans friend will still look like a 'man' in woman's clothing whether she has the full on op or not
at this present time she looks like a man with long hair and generous boobs in woman's clothing
she refuses to wear a wig, so, despite having long well cut and coloured hair, she has a bald spot and a widows peak, medication can do nothing to reanimate dead hair follicles, just prevent it progressing

Also what about those who refer to themselves as andro, gender queer,questioning, asexual, intersex, pansexual gender variant, pangender, two spirited etc
where do they fit into anyones bigoted minds? the few who have shown their 'fear of the unknown' on this thread really have no idea how big a number world wide the issue affects [I refuse to believe anyone here is a bigot, just not understanding of the true depth of the issues]

oh and just to point out, a mf trans-person, whether they still have their penis or not, is the LEAST likely person to want to attack your precious mother, sister, daughter
they, unlike the Donald Trump-a -likes of this word want to be them, not grab them, they aspire to be, theyre not hunters or predators
look up statistics on how many trans-persons are killed every year JUST because of their transgenderism


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Are you saying dogs can be gay too?
> .


and dolphins inc killer whales and chimpanzees/bonobos and penguins and giraffes and sealions and snails and bats and so on and so forth

Although it would be more correct to state that they exhibit and manifest, in a sexual way, same sex attraction and behaviour, rather than use human labels, as animals dont tend to segregate the way humans do


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Check out Ruffs (the birds). They have four genders, dictated by genes. 
There are all sorts of variations in nature, and a great many people that don't know the difference between usual and normal. 

And as a side note, if everyone is scared of the behaviour of men in public toilets, how about individual cubicles in a universal facility, rather than public urinals, and then there will be no doubt about intent if you do see a penis.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I was thinking about this thread earlier while I nipped into some public loos to fill phoebes water bowl..

If I was to walk into a public toilet and see ANY genitals being flashed around, I'd find it inappropriate.
I then asked my OH how many times he's seen another mans penis in a public bathroom. His reply was "Never! We don't unzip at the door and helicopter towards the urinals you know!!"
So if someone is intentionally flashing their genitals to you in a public bathroom then there's something wrong. It makes no difference what gender they are!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Nettles said:


> I then asked my OH how many times he's seen another mans penis in a public bathroom. His reply was "Never! We don't unzip at the door and helicopter towards the urinals you know!!"!


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious

i do wonder how people who are so 'penis phobic' would cope on the continent where no one bats an eyelid at sharing public loos with either sex, in the middle of some town/village square, or using what used to be known as turkish toilets, although i bet thats viewed as an un-pc term these days


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

There is a difference between ACTUAL risk and PERCEIVED risk. A woman may actually not be at any risk at all from a person who is physically male but identifies as female, but that may not stop her feeling anything from mild anxiety through to terror when she encounters this person in a public toilet and there is no one else around.

Most women are automatically more wary if they encounter a man while walking late at night or in an isolated place than they would be if they encountered a woman in the same situation. If they have previously been the victims of violence or abuse, they are likely to be more than wary. Society understands their anxiety in these situations, even if it may be unwarranted, yet they are not allowed to feel the same anxiety encountering a man in a ladies toilet when they may be the only two people there?!!

That's the problem with all these easy statements about 'no discrimination'. You always discriminate against someone. It's just down to which type of discrimination you think is least harmful or does the most good.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

There was me thinking that all you did in a public toilet was to go to the toilet...who knew women across the world were checking to make sure that the other person in the toilet was female or not 

I could not care any less which gender someone wants to be referred too, heck, I have a friend that prefers to be completely gender neutral (so we use they and them rather than he/she)...unless that person wants to share a toilet cubicle then it's fine by me 

I find this thread a little offensive if I'm honest.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious
> 
> i do wonder how people who are so 'penis phobic' would cope on the continent where no one bats an eyelid at sharing public loos with either sex, in the middle of some town/village square, or using what used to be known as turkish toilets, although i bet thats viewed as an un-pc term these days


I had to google Turkish toilet! I'd have sooooo much more of an issue squatting over a hole in the ground than I would sharing a bathroom with someone who may or may not have different genitals to me


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Nettles said:


> I had to google Turkish toilet! I'd have sooooo much more of an issue squatting over a hole in the ground than I would sharing a bathroom with someone who may or may not have different genitals to me


They had these in France when I was over there a few years ago (about 20 years now  ), I walked in, spotted the hole with straining handles so turned around again and held it in till I got back to the hotel :Hilarious


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> There was me thinking that all you did in a public toilet was to go to the toilet...who knew women across the world were checking to make sure that the other person in the toilet was female or not
> 
> I could not care any less which gender someone wants to be referred too, heck, I have a friend that prefers to be completely gender neutral (so we use they and them rather than he/she)...unless that person wants to share a toilet cubicle then it's fine by me
> 
> I find this thread a little offensive if I'm honest.


This is just a group of people sharing their thoughts and views based on their different experiences.Why is it offensive? And who is it offensive to?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

CuddleMonster said:


> There is a difference between ACTUAL risk and PERCEIVED risk. A woman may actually not be at any risk at all from a person who is physically male but identifies as female, but that may not stop her feeling anything from mild anxiety through to terror when she encounters this person in a public toilet and there is no one else around.
> 
> Most women are automatically more wary if they encounter a man while walking late at night or in an isolated place than they would be if they encountered a woman in the same situation. If they have previously been the victims of violence or abuse, they are likely to be more than wary. Society understands their anxiety in these situations, even if it may be unwarranted, yet they are not allowed to feel the same anxiety encountering a man in a ladies toilet when they may be the only two people there?!!
> 
> That's the problem with all these easy statements about 'no discrimination'. You always discriminate against someone. It's just down to which type of discrimination you think is least harmful or does the most good.


I'm still not getting this. I live my entire life worrying about "perceived risks" but I don't expect the world to revolve around me and my perceived fears. If a man is attacked by another man and now perceives all men in public bathrooms to be a risk, can he expect to be given a bathroom all to himself then?
Why are public toilets even the issue and where do we draw the line? Surely a female with a fear of being attacked by all males would feel the same encountering a male in any quiet place? Just as an example, a bus stop in a quiet area. So do we not allow trans people to use bus stops in quiet areas next?
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I really don't understand the "risks" people are perceiving.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> They had these in France when I was over there a few years ago (about 20 years now  ), I walked in, spotted the hole with straining handles so turned around again and held it in till I got back to the hotel :Hilarious


I don't blame you! How are you supposed to aim a piddle? And another thing.. are you meant to strip from the waist down coz in pretty sure I'd pee on my jeans if I didn't.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Nettles said:


> I'm still not getting this. I live my entire life worrying about "perceived risks" but I don't expect the world to revolve around me and my perceived fears. If a man is attacked by another man and now perceives all men in public bathrooms to be a risk, can he expect to be given a bathroom all to himself then?
> Why are public toilets even the issue and where do we draw the line? Surely a female with a fear of being attacked by all males would feel the same encountering a male in any quiet place? Just as an example, a bus stop in a quiet area. So do we not allow trans people to use bus stops in quiet areas next?
> I'm not trying to be argumentative, I really don't understand the "risks" people are perceiving.


do you not realise that anyone who is different is actually a pervert in disguise, according to certain members of the public?

I bet many people on this thread have shared a public bathroom, showers, swimming pool etc with a transgender person of either sex
and actually
the law says that people should be accepted and treated as the gender they correspond with
ergo screaming cos their was a mf or fm person in the toilets, swimming pool, showers, blah blah blah, when, what they are doing is actually nothing out of the ordinary, is actually a criminal offence, it comes under hate crime
we dont live in Carolina yet


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> do you not realise that everyone that is different is actually a pervert in disguise, according to certain members of the public?
> 
> I bet many people on this thread have shared a public bathroom, showers, swimming pool etc with a transgender person of either sex
> and actually
> ...


It's sad that the word "pervert" was even brought into the conversation in the first place.

In my eyes, saying someone feels at risk because of gender is no different than saying someone feels at risk because of race, religion, sexual preference, hair colour etc..

When I was a child, I was sexually assaulted by a bald man. I don't think every bald man is a pervert. I certainly don't expect bald men to be refused entry to any room I'm in. It's my issue to deal with, not the innocent bald mans.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> look up statistics on how many trans-persons are killed every year JUST because of their transgenderism


Do you know how many women are murdered every day, by men, because they are female? I think a big issue here is male violence. Transwomen fear male violence in men's bathrooms so women are the ones who have to move over, instead of dealing with the problem at hand. A female rape victim may well fear a 6' 2 built like a rugby player transwoman coming into the public toilet, changing room, whatever. But she just has to suck it up, right? A third unisex/gender neutral option is one solution but then that doesn't validate a person's genderfeels. 
I don't know if I have the hwyl to get into the rest of this right now, but I think everyone needs to remember the distinction between sex and gender.

Btw, do you think the African American community's reaction to Rachel Dolezal was reasonable? If so, why? Why is her identity not valid? Could it be that identity doesn't always correspond with reality? How do you define 'black' anyway? Or 'woman', or 'man'?


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

The discussion was about how male and female brains are scientifically different. Whether it was something you were born with (different hormone levels found in the womb) or whether your environment played a part. (girls in pink/boys in blue etc)

This was the program, found it on Vimeo so don't know if this has country restrictions like Youtube.






Brain scans showed a clear difference between a typical male and typical female and then through tests what area's they were best in. It also showed that too much or an hormone in the womb can cause things like Autism. Which is said to be the extreme male personality.

so if too much of an hormone can change the way the brain develops is it responsible for people being gay or feeling they were born in the wrong bodies? There must be a 'right or perfect level' of an hormone within a body so we have males who are happy to be in a male body and females who are happy with their female body as 'the norm' ..so if a male body has too much female hormones and this results in a child who thinks they want to be female then why can't they be given more male hormone to reverse this? ... it was a simple scientific question? .. if they can use hormones to physically change their sex such as more female hormones to produce breasts then why can't they be given male hormones earlier to treat this so they don't spend their life unhappy in their body unless they can afford to go through a sex change? ...or it more than just a different level of hormones, will their early life experience also influence whether they mentally feel they are male or female too? ..would it make a difference whether they were given 'gender neutral' toys and clothes or dressed in traditional girl or boys clothes and given traditional girls and boys toys? Is it just a mental illness caused by how they were treated in childhood? ..or is there an actual physical difference in how their brains work as a result of the different levels of hormones from birth?

Why did wild apes that have never seen 'human toys' go for the typical boys and girls toys? but yet as others have said on here other animals in the wild also engage in behaviours with same sex animals of the same type as them?

Watch the video or google 'Horizon: is your brain male or female' to see if you can watch a clip in your country? (if outside UK) It may still be on BBC iPlayer to watch.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Ok, lets put it this way...

Why does someone that has been born in the wrong body need to be "fixed" so that they fit in with society?
Why do homosexuals need "fixing"?
What is such a big deal about a man wanting to dress in what society deems as women's clothes but a woman is allowed to wear male clothes?
Why does it matter what toys a child plays with? Or apes for that matter?

Just why does this all matter?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Argent said:


> I'm going to give my experience of childhood and puberty for contrast to what others have added;
> 
> I was born female, raised female. In my early years I liked singing and music, dressing up, baking with Nan and watching and playing Power Rangers. I had a microscope, rock samples and toy dinosaurs alongside my ponies and teddy bears, got a blue bike and even a scalextric set one Christmas. My interests were varied and my parents never stopped me liking what I liked. However, when I reached say, 9 or 10, I carried on doing what I was doing, running and playing topless in shorts in the summer with my boy cousins with a paddling pool in the yard, when I was stopped and told "girls don't do that - cover up" by an aunt. My world came crashing down. What the hell was wrong with my body, which as far as I could see, looked just like my cousins' in the torso at least. What was it about me, about being a girl that was so disgusting that I had to cover up? I was so ashamed and I didn't know why! I was a tomboy through and through, and until the adults started making a fuss, I was perfectly happy just being myself.
> 
> ...


@Argent, I've read your posts on this thread, and really wish we still had the rep system. The courage you have posting what you have on this thread, leaves me speechless.

It's interesting that some people dismiss the gender identity crisis amongst kids as a fad, and expect children to"grow out of it" when puberty hit, because my experience is the exact opposite. I was born a girl, raised a girl, played with Barbie and dolls. But I'd watch Thunderbirds (it's still a guilty secret now and I'm in my 30's  ), Dexter's Lab and Power Rangers over Power Puff Girls and My little Pony. Playing out never appealed to me because I didn't identify with either the girls, or the boys.

It was actually in puberty that I became more "male", although that seems wrong, too. More gender neutral, then. I've never been interested in shopping, fashion, make-up, or shoes. Talking about what's happening in the soaps sends me to sleep, but then, so does football (all sports, really) I'm not a "girly-girl", and never really have been, but I'm not as "far along the spectrum" of being, or considering myself as trans, so imagine my relief when I came across a video and blog about gender neutrality, in the middle of the night, and I started to read more into it. Finally, I understood why I am like I am. Physically, I look like a woman, and I'm fine with that, but my mind doesn't conform with the female gender stereotype.

I said in a thread in dog chat that I'm fine with labels like "daughter" "sister" "niece" etc being applied in reference to myself, but that's probably because I grew up with them, but someone in the street tells their child to"watch the lady/watch the lady and her dogs" and I have to fight the urge to look over my shoulder for someone matching that description.

Even my name/the spelling of my name, is unintentionally (on my mum's part) gender neutral. Traditionally it's a boy's name/surname, but now more commonly used as a girl's name. However, many of my elderly clients have remarked that the way I spell my name, is the "boy's spelling". I already liked my name because I have a purely evil streak and read with amusement the numerous and inventive ways that it is spelt  , so learning that it's traditionally the boys spelling, just propelled my own opinion of my name from "nice name" to "awesome".

Someone mentioned environment, and how a girl brought up with older brothers is "more likely to be a tomboy" and vice versa. IME, that's a bit too simplistic.

I have a [female] cousin, who, at the time, was the youngest of 2 girls. Now the middle of 3. Her wider environment offered a mix of girls and boys, in terms of family/home, and obviously, school. She probably had an equal number of female and male cousins, but was much closer to my brother than, it seemed, any of the rest of us. Out and out tomboy growing up, in the way I never was. Now a mother of 1 and pregnant with her 2nd.

My nephew, on the other hand, has had a childhood very heavy in female company - most of his mum's friends have daughters, the only "cousin" he really sees (actually mine and his dad's cousin) is a girl, his mum's brother has girls (not that he really sees them), he has 2 sisters and a high proportion of the street in which he lives, is populated by girls. He's very effeminate, but to the best of my knowledge, has never said that he identifies as a girl.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Ok, lets put it this way...
> 
> Why does someone that has been born in the wrong body need to be "fixed" so that they fit in with society?
> Why do homosexuals need "fixing"?
> ...


Because many people are ignorant or fear anything that is different to them and therefore the difference needs "fixed"

I wonder how many people who differ from what society perceives as "the norm" want to be "fixed"

My niece is gay. She's happy with who she is. A friend of the family is FM trans. He's happy with who he is. Neither of them need "fixing" and neither want to be either. They are who they are. Unique, wonderful people.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2016)

Phoenix Rising said:


> so if too much of an hormone can change the way the brain develops is it responsible for people being gay or feeling they were born in the wrong bodies? There must be a 'right or perfect level' of an hormone within a body


Well, first, it's much more complex than just hormone levels. There is so much more that goes in to brain development than the presence of hormones. Genetic and environmental factors shape all sorts of things.

Two, why would you (or anyone) want to make sure everyone is "normal". 
Think of it this way. There are certain hormones that affect growth. Would you want to alter those hormones so that everyone grows to a similar heights. I mean, you wouldn't want anyone to grow too tall, that's an inconvenience after all, they might bump their head on doorways, or not have enough leg room in average sized vehicles. And of course being too short is undesirable as well, always having to use a step stool and ask for people to reach things for you... If everyone were the same, or at least more similar heights, they would fit in to society better and face fewer hardships wouldn't they?

It sounds silly when we talk about height doesn't it?

Why is it any different when we talk about autism, or homosexuality? Why do we want everyone to be "normal"? Why is that even desirable? Some of the best minds are autistic, and some of the best abilities to see things "normal" people don't come from autistic minds. Why would we want to eliminate that?
Why not learn from those who see things through a different lens, who experience the world differently than most instead of trying to normalize them?

Yes, of course it's harder to travel through life as one outside of societal norms, but perhaps it's not the person that needs changing, but society.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

reps galore for that @ouesi


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> There was me thinking that all you did in a public toilet was to go to the toilet...who knew women across the world were checking to make sure that the other person in the toilet was female or not
> 
> I could not care any less which gender someone wants to be referred too, heck, I have a friend that prefers to be completely gender neutral (so we use they and them rather than he/she)...unless that person wants to share a toilet cubicle then it's fine by me
> 
> I find this thread a little offensive if I'm honest.


Just because you don't agree with me, you don't need to deliberately twist what I am saying. Of course women don't go round checking that everyone else in the loo is female - but unless you stare at the ground all the time, it is hard not to notice if the people around you are male or female.

@Nettles of course I am not suggesting that transgender people be prevented from using bus stops! There is a huge difference between encountering a man in an open space by a road, where there will be other cars, people etc coming by, and encountering one in an enclosed, windowless space, with only one exit and possibly no one else within earshot. Not to mention that in a loo, you will be taking half your clothes off behind a flimsy cubicle door that will probably either have an inadequate lock or none at all, so will probably be feeling more vulnerable than you would at a bus stop! I appreciate how uncomfortable/scared a transgender person who identifies as female but who is born male must feel using a men's toilet. What I find so hypocritical is that their anxieties and fears are regarded as totally understandable, but any woman who dares to feel anxious or fearful at the thought of sharing a public loo with a man has her fears dismissed and is moreover, treated as a hateful person for not being 'accepting' toward the transgender person.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2016)

CuddleMonster said:


> What I find so hypocritical is that their anxieties and fears are regarded as totally understandable, but any woman who dares to feel anxious or fearful at the thought of sharing a public loo with a man has her fears dismissed and is moreover, treated as a hateful person for not being 'accepting' toward the transgender person.


But it wouldn't be a "man" in a female restroom, it would be a transgender person that you likely wouldn't even know was a transgender person. I guarantee you have already shared restrooms with "men" and never knew it.

And let's face it, the underlying narrative here is that the transgender person in a female restroom is there to attack women. 
What are the actual odds of a woman being attacked in a restroom by a transgender person? Has this ever even actually happened? 'Cause I've never heard of a single case, and I'm pretty sure it would be shouted from the rooftops by certain folks had it ever happened.

The reality is women are indeed often attacked, by MEN. Not transgender men or women, but by those so called "normal" men who fit in to the neat categories our society creates for them.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> But it wouldn't be a "man" in a female restroom, it would be a transgender person that you likely wouldn't even know was a transgender person. I guarantee you have already shared restrooms with "men" and never knew it.
> 
> And let's face it, the underlying narrative here is that the transgender person in a female restroom is there to attack women.
> What are the actual odds of a woman being attacked in a restroom by a transgender person? Has this ever even actually happened? 'Cause I've never heard of a single case, and I'm pretty sure it would be shouted from the rooftops by certain folks had it ever happened.
> ...


I have already experienced this and yes, I did know the person was biologically a man, and yes, I did find it very unnerving and frightening. NOT because the person was transgender, but because I was in a small, enclosed space that I was expecting to be female only with someone who was biologically male. Of course I am unlikely to be attacked by a person in this situation. I am also unlikely to be attacked by a man I meet walking my dog in the local woods. But that doesn't mean I don't feel wary in both situations, and relieved when they are over without any problem arising. I know the majority of people are kind and decent and won't harm me - but I also know there are a small minority who are not safe to be around, and you can't tell just by looking at someone, how 'safe' they are. So yes, I will always be unnerved by meeting a 'man' in a ladies' loo! Obviously, if you can't tell the lady using the restroom was born male, it wouldn't be unnerving, but in that case, the whole "is it right or not" debate wouldn't arise, because no one would even know it was happening!


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2016)

CuddleMonster said:


> I have already experienced this and yes, I did know the person was biologically a man,


Okay, I have to ask, how did you know. 
Perhaps I lead a sheltered life, but in all my years of using public restrooms I have never seen anyone's genitalia. So unless the person whipped a penis out with the stall door open, I'm not sure how you knew they were a man....


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

CuddleMonster said:


> I will always be unnerved by meeting a 'man' in a ladies' loo!


Agreed. I feel very odd when the cleaner is male and I bump into him.
I knew and was friends for some year with a transgender male/female. I still wouldn't have liked to have met him/her in certain circumstances. It might not be politically correct or exceptable in this day and age, but it's how I feel, that's feel not think...............


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Okay, I have to ask, how did you know.
> Perhaps I lead a sheltered life, but in all my years of using public restrooms I have never seen anyone's genitalia. So unless the person whipped a penis out with the stall door open, I'm not sure how you knew they were a man....


Just because a man dresses up in women's clothes, would you really need to see his bits to know he was a man? Adams apple, bone structure, face...it was really obvious this person wasn't born female. People don't always change to look like the gender they identify as. I knew someone years ago who switched from being 'Mike' to 'Carol' but still just looked like 'Mike' wearing a dress. And anyone sharing a loo with her would have known at first glance that she wasn't born 'Carol'.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

CuddleMonster said:


> I have already experienced this and yes, I did know the person was biologically a man, and yes, I did find it very unnerving and frightening. NOT because the person was transgender, but because I was in a small, enclosed space that I was expecting to be female only with someone who was biologically male. Of course I am unlikely to be attacked by a person in this situation. I am also unlikely to be attacked by a man I meet walking my dog in the local woods. But that doesn't mean I don't feel wary in both situations, and relieved when they are over without any problem arising. I know the majority of people are kind and decent and won't harm me - but I also know there are a small minority who are not safe to be around, and you can't tell just by looking at someone, how 'safe' they are. So yes, I will always be unnerved by meeting a 'man' in a ladies' loo! Obviously, if you can't tell the lady using the restroom was born male, it wouldn't be unnerving, but in that case, the whole "is it right or not" debate wouldn't arise, because no one would even know it was happening!


So you honestly think that a transgender person would go through three + years of counseling, 2+years of seeing a psychiatrist,BEFORE even gettin reffered to a gender reassignment clinic, where they may have to wait for 18-24 months for an appointment, maybe travelling hundreds of miles each time as theyre not in abundance, then have to show how commited they are by wearing the appropriate clothes for their gender 24/7, having to 'come out' to their work colleagues, family, friends and maybe losing many of those, go through ridicule and bullying, take many differing tablets to overcome their birth gender, maybe have to move away from the town they were born in, undergo a 20 hr reconstruction operation, adams apple shave, facial feminisation etc

just to wait to get in your knickers, in the loo? do you not realise rape and sexual predatory is about control and nothing to do with sexual gratification? theyre about 'putting women down' not glorifying them and aspiring to be them
what do you suggest? knicker check at the bathroom door, before entry allowed? make sure its not a 'cock in a frock' [cant put what fm are called as its very nasty]

Im out of this thread now


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> So you honestly think that a transgender person would go through three + years of counseling, 2+years of seeing a psychiatrist,BEFORE even gettin reffered to a gender reassignment clinic, where they may have to wait for 18-24 months for an appointment, maybe travelling hundreds of miles each time as theyre not in abundance, then have to show how commited they are by wearing the appropriate clothes for their gender 24/7, having to 'come out' to their work colleagues, family, friends and maybe losing many of those, go through ridicule and bullying, take many differing tablets to overcome their birth gender, maybe have to move away from the town they were born in, undergo a 20 hr reconstruction operation, adams apple shave, facial feminisation etc
> 
> just to wait to get in your knickers, in the loo? do you not realise rape and sexual predatory is about control and nothing to do with sexual gratification? theyre about 'putting women down' not glorifying them and aspiring to be them
> what do you suggest? knicker check at the bathroom door, before entry allowed? make sure its not a 'cock in a frock' [cant put what fm are called as its very nasty]
> ...


That's not what has been said.
Also, a transgender person has to wear the clothes and live as the chosen sex for quite a while before any treatment starts


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2016)

CuddleMonster said:


> Just because a man dresses up in women's clothes, would you really need to see his bits to know he was a man? Adams apple, bone structure, face...it was really obvious this person wasn't born female. People don't always change to look like the gender they identify as. I knew someone years ago who switched from being 'Mike' to 'Carol' but still just looked like 'Mike' wearing a dress. And anyone sharing a loo with her would have known at first glance that she wasn't born 'Carol'.


Has it ever occurred to you that your assumptions could be wrong?
I know women who identify as women who have facial hair, or are balding, and yes, an adam's apple, or what looks like one. People are diverse, not every woman looks like a woman, not everyone has the means to be able to "hide" those things about them that make them look like the "wrong" gender. Or perhaps they don't want to. So again, unless you saw a penis, you don't know. You assumed.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

mrs phas said:


> So you honestly think that a transgender person would go through three + years of counseling, 2+years of seeing a psychiatrist,BEFORE even gettin reffered to a gender reassignment clinic, where they may have to wait for 18-24 months for an appointment, maybe travelling hundreds of miles each time as theyre not in abundance, then have to show how commited they are by wearing the appropriate clothes for their gender 24/7, having to 'come out' to their work colleagues, family, friends and maybe losing many of those, go through ridicule and bullying, take many differing tablets to overcome their birth gender, maybe have to move away from the town they were born in, undergo a 20 hr reconstruction operation, adams apple shave, facial feminisation etc
> 
> just to wait to get in your knickers, in the loo? do you not realise rape and sexual predatory is about control and nothing to do with sexual gratification? theyre about 'putting women down' not glorifying them and aspiring to be them
> what do you suggest? knicker check at the bathroom door, before entry allowed? make sure its not a 'cock in a frock' [cant put what fm are called as its very nasty]
> ...


No, of course not - I am just saying that as a woman who has been on the receiving end of male abuse in the past, my gut reaction to seeing a 'man' in a ladies' loo is one of pure panic. It's a shame that those who are bending over backwards to provide support to transgender people can't also provide a little understanding to other people too. I've already said that I don't think every transgender person I meet is going to attack me, any more than I think every man I meet is going to attack me. But we can't all have perfect control over our emotions.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

rona said:


> That's not what has been said.
> Also, a transgender person has to wear the clothes and live as the chosen sex for quite a while before any treatment starts


Really think, having lived with, and supported, a transgendered woman transitioning, for the last 4 yrs, I know what is what

sorry to be back
but 
my friend has just reminded me that today is transgender remembrance day
the day that transgenderpeople from all over the world are remembered for what they did in war, ALL war
no one was afraid for them to join up and fight were they

now i really am out


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2016)

CuddleMonster said:


> No, of course not - I am just saying that as a woman who has been on the receiving end of male abuse in the past, my gut reaction to seeing a 'man' in a ladies' loo is one of pure panic. It's a shame that those who are bending over backwards to provide support to transgender people can't also provide a little understanding to other people too. I've already said that I don't think every transgender person I meet is going to attack me, any more than I think every man I meet is going to attack me. But we can't all have perfect control over our emotions.


Okay, I for one do have empathy for your situation. Yes, it is scary to see what you think is a man in a place you would not expect to see one. I get that.

The argument though, is that your fears (or mine, or anyone's) don't get to dictate how others should behave. Especially not when they are not likely to happen. 
That's not dismissing your fears or discomfort, it's simply saying your feelings don't get to matter *more* than legitimate needs of others.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Really think, having lived with, and supported, a transgendered woman transitioning, for the last 4 yrs, I know what is what


Then you should know that not all are treated the same


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

CuddleMonster said:


> Just because a man dresses up in women's clothes,


But we aren't talking about men 'dressing up in women's clothes' are we? I thought we were talking about transexuals. Or are Female to Male transexuals just women dressed up in mens clothes?

I doubt that any of this is news to those who are transitioning ........

When we were younger, my wife and I never missed Brighton Pride ....what a party ..... now theres a place to meet all genders lol

J


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Why are people quoting out of context? Is it just to make their own point?


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

rona said:


> Why are people quoting out of context?


If you are talking about me then I am sorry but it isn't out of context ....the general consensus from those who are concerned, is about meeting 'men' in the Ladies.

I'm sure I've met a few FTMs in the Gents ...but to be honest I never really look.

J


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## quagga (Jun 11, 2014)

I've been trying to ignore this thread because I find it upsetting but I really just cannot abide reading some of the things written on this day in particular: Transgender Day of Remembrance.

I'm gay (and I don't need to be 'fixed', thanks) and have trans friends, and the humiliation and abuse that they experience on a daily basis in unbelievable, from having school kids call them a t****y, being beaten up, and having people spit in their faces.

Spending time in gay bars and clubs also means using gender-neutral toilets and I can honestly say that I feel completely comfortable in these situations (as do my trans brothers and sisters). To be perfectly frank, if someone wanted to assault you (sexually or otherwise), whether the picture on the toilet door is wearing a skirt or not isn't going to make much difference.

Watching your friends fight for their right to exist is beyond exhausting and I don't have the energy to address the points raised on this thread, all I can do is remind you that 40% of trans people have attempted suicide. Not considered, ATTEMPTED.

[CONTENT WARNING] this is a list of all recorded murders of trans people this year https://tdor.info/


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

CuddleMonster said:


> @Nettles of course I am not suggesting that transgender people be prevented from using bus stops! There is a huge difference between encountering a man in an open space by a road, where there will be other cars, people etc coming by, and encountering one in an enclosed, windowless space, with only one exit and possibly no one else within earshot. Not to mention that in a loo, you will be taking half your clothes off behind a flimsy cubicle door that will probably either have an inadequate lock or none at all, so will probably be feeling more vulnerable than you would at a bus stop! I appreciate how uncomfortable/scared a transgender person who identifies as female but who is born male must feel using a men's toilet. What I find so hypocritical is that their anxieties and fears are regarded as totally understandable, but any woman who dares to feel anxious or fearful at the thought of sharing a public loo with a man has her fears dismissed and is moreover, treated as a hateful person for not being 'accepting' toward the transgender person.


How is it in any way hypocritical to think every human being is entitled to be treated with respect?

We're talking about two innocent people here. One who PERCEIVES a threat from the other. Why does the person who identifies with the same gender they were assigned at birth have any more rights than the other? They don't! Both should be equally entitled to use a public bathroom without prejudice, but the transgender person is not getting that luxury.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Transgenderism is a complicated issue, and one I cannot pretend to understand as I cannot comprehend how it feels to be in the wrong body... I dont even know if Cis-gendered people are really suited to discuss it as it is absolutely out of our depth of understanding IMHO. I have MtF friends, and have previously had MtF colleagues.

I cannot lie, I shared a changing room with an early stage MtF lady and felt uncomfortable ... Mainly because I knew her as a straight male, and now I had to change and shower with her in a womans space, but that was more my hangup than hers... I don't even like changing in front of Cis-women. I didn't feel unsafe, or threatened, just uncomfortable. But I would never have insisted she didn't use the space, I was safer in there with her than she was in the male changing rooms (toilets i dont see the concern, we have cubicles...)

Its all very confusing to be fair, and a delicate subject


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Ok, lets put it this way...
> 
> Why does someone that has been born in the wrong body need to be "fixed" so that they fit in with society?
> 
> ...


Now can someone answer my question - how do you define woman?


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Men - "I must hurt any feminine person I share a bathroom with"
Society - "Only natural"
Women - "Bit scared of these males"
Society - "Bigot"


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

picaresque said:


> Now can someone answer my question - how do you define woman?


This, in essence, is the question.

As people like me dont suffer with the gender issue, Im not sure I can answer this.

As a feminist, I could argue that "femininity" is a social construct - I am a woman, I have the anatomy of a woman, I feel every part a woman, however I do not express many traits of femininity. Transgender women are often more "girly" than me; are they displaying a male perspective of what they believe a woman is (IME high heels, skirts, makeup, well presented etc) - having spoken to TW I know this isn't really the case; some are more feminine, others feel they need to present the way society accepts in order to "pass" as without these things they feel they look too much like a man (especially until hormones really kick in and change facial structure and body shape) - one lady I know has certainly become less flamboyent as her transition goes along. She doesnt often wear much makeup, or skirts. She is simply trying to meet the social expectation of being female, does that mean she is endorsing it? Or does it mean she has to endorse it in order to feel safe (TW are at huge risk of abuse)

Are my psyche and my body somehow tied, is that why I feel okay having boobs and hips, and TM (FtM) find this a distressing aspect of their body? If this is the case, how much of being a gender really social construct? I dont really fit into the societal concept of female embodiment other than my physical appearance... I dont wear makeup, wear heels or skirts, I am not maternal or keen on "home-making" - I work a male dominated job, my partner does the "home" stuff like cook and clean... I do the DIY. However, I am happy in myself to present as a woman, be referred to as female, identify as a woman and it doesnt bother me - is this just an indication that my psyche and physical being are aligned seeing as I have never fit the social construct?

Without knowing how it "feels" to not be in the body my mind identifies with, I really dont know how to appreciate the Tranwoman, or transmens plight,

Its all very philisophical here and never going to lead to an answer for me I guess until science provides one!


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

grumpy goby said:


> This, in essence, is the question.
> 
> As people like me dont suffer with the gender issue, Im not sure I can answer this.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response, you make some good points. 
Personally I don't feel like a woman. I just am. I don't feel like a man either, how could I even now what that feels like? That is where I struggle with the whole thing. I don't identify as 'cis' either for that matter. 
I don't doubt that some people feel gender dysphoria and if living as the opposite sex eases that then that is fine by me. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water though.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

picaresque said:


> Now can someone answer my question - how do you define woman?


That is the point and was the the point of the show - which is what this thread was originally about not Transgenderism in particular. Scientifically speaking a woman is someone who was born as a baby girl with female anatomy, and a boy with male anatomy. They can tell you now, before a baby is born whether it's a boy or girl. .. I remember seeing a TV program in which a man had gone into a store that sells baby items to get some booties the first thing the lady behind the counter says 'Do you want pink for a girl or blue for a boy, or don't you know what it is yet?' In the story, the man didn't know so she suggested white or lemon instead... I realise this was just a TV program but it happens in real life. we are influenced before a baby is even born and know what it is going to be to choose pink for a girl and blue for a boy.

My own mum after discovering my eldest brother was having a baby boy knitted him a blue cardigan, and a white one and matching booties when they had a girl next it was pink one, in fact the first thing she said was 'well you can use the white one again for her, I'll just knit her a pink one'. .... I'm sure my mum didn't mean anything nasty in this comment but the fact is she was also bought up with 'this is suitable for girls and this is suitable for boys' mentality and the clothes and toys she choose for them (and us as kids) reflect the beliefs she was brought up with.

and that was the topic of the show.. are our brains female (or male) because we were born that way or because we were influenced by the environment we grew up in? - being told dolls were for girls, cars and action men for boys. I'm sure I remember a thread before talking about colours of dog clothes and how some people regarded some colours 'gender-neutral' whilst most wouldn't dress their male dog in pink! .. we do it without thinking even with our pets! Even those house's with play tunnels for small furries can be bought in pink or blue, dog crates, no doubt cat toys too.

The fact is differences were shown in the brain's of males and females and hormone levels are of course different in both, is one a result of the other (ie hormone levels from birth affecting how the brain develops) or is our brain's development determined by the sex our body is? ..or can it changed/influenced by the way we are then brought up once born?

They mentioned in some cultures the differences were not as much but they didn't say which cultures they were, which would have been interesting.

incidentally, we went past a junior football club on Saturday (its near a car park to a out of town supermarket near us) and every single child playing was male! There were more girls in the supermarket too with their mums than boys (unless it was a very young baby) I took note. Maybe just cos the football club was so near that the dads and son's were dropped off there and the mums took the girls shopping cos they found it boring watching football! We were in the toy aisle too so could get presents for my own nieces and nephews. My mum wanted Lego for 2 of them (in different families).. strangely whilst Lego is an acceptable toy for both boys and girls... my nephew got a Lego Creater helicopter and niece a Disney Princess one! ..both were *what they had asked for! *


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

oh and I just remembered another conversation I once overheard in a toy shop that shows how young we are influenced.. I was in a shopping centre picking up some stuff and had gone in ELC to pick up something for my SIL There was a young mother in there with a baby boy about 2 ish and a girl (about 4 ish). The baby boy toddled off towards two of those baby walker type toys that come in different colours. he went towards the pink one. the little girl immediately said 'that's the girls one' and tried to take it off him, the mum intervened telling her to leave him alone as he'd start screaming and crying. the little girl replied 'but* he's playing with the wrong one*'... the mother told her it didn't matter cos he was just a baby and didn't understand yet and sent her off to find what it was she wanted for xmas! ... so even by 4 yrs old, kids have a strong sense of what is appropriate for boys and what's for girls!


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

This kind of socialisation starts very young, pretty much from birth. It's much more insidious than pink or blue. Girls are coddled more, told to stay clean and tidy and sit still, and, crucially, _be nice. _We're raised from infancy to not hurt anyone's feelings - maybe this is why @grumpy goby (hope you don't mind me using you as an example, and sorry for returning to that subject) in a previous post admits feeling uncomfortable in the presence of a newly transitioning male co-worker in the work locker room, but is quick to say that it is her problem, as if she has no right to feel this way.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Okay, I have to ask, how did you know.
> Perhaps I lead a sheltered life, but in all my years of using public restrooms I have never seen anyone's genitalia. So unless the person whipped a penis out with the stall door open, I'm not sure how you knew they were a man....


I've seen a number of trans women who are very obviously so.

Sadly, for some, it can be very difficult to disguise their 6'+, muscular frame, Adam's apple and huge hands.

I would imagine that if all public toilets were individual, self contained, and not isolated it would be better for all. I suspect that trans people could feel just as vulnerable in a public loo as described by cuddlemonster.

I'm not keen on using them myself regardless of who is in there - it could be anyone intent on trouble - muggers, druggies, etc.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

CuddleMonster said:


> No, of course not - I am just saying that as a woman who has been on the receiving end of male abuse in the past, my gut reaction to seeing a 'man' in a ladies' loo is one of pure panic. It's a shame that those who are bending over backwards to provide support to transgender people can't also provide a little understanding to other people too. I've already said that I don't think every transgender person I meet is going to attack me, any more than I think every man I meet is going to attack me. But we can't all have perfect control over our emotions.


I'm not sure either how we are supposed to know that the person who looks like a man dressed in women's clothing who has entered the Ladies' toilets, is a trans woman?

I would make that assumption, and probably pay them no more attention than anyone else in there, but I've never been attacked by a man. I can't imagine what that does to someone tbh.

Whilst I recognise and accept that trans people deserve to be accepted and to feel safe in our society, I also recognise that everyone else deserves the same consideration.

However, anyone who feels vulnerable because of a passed traumatic event in their life doesn't seem to be worthy (by some) of that understanding and are labeled "phobic"


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Phoenix Rising said:


> incidentally, we went past a junior football club on Saturday (its near a car park to a out of town supermarket near us) and every single child playing was male!


Most likely reason for this is the girls aren't allowed in boys football leagues...Given the chance I bet most girls would happily kick a football around rather than be dragged shopping IME


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

On a side note, regarding identifying trans women and those who recognise them as men and not TW, I think it was H&M that recently did a beautifully inclusive 'all women' advert, and hordes of people complained about the trans person included. Only, the individual they were complaining about was in fact a cis woman, a top athelete. They didn't spot the trans woman at all...


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Most likely reason for this is the girls aren't allowed in boys football leagues...Given the chance I bet most girls would happily kick a football around rather than be dragged shopping IME


They can play together up to a certain age:

Quote
*change to the age limit at which boys and girls can play football in the same teams has been unanimously voted in by The FA.*

The resolution to increase the mixed football age limit from U15s to U16s was approved on Wednesday by The FA shareholders at their AGM after The FA Board, FA Executive and FA Council agreed the proposal.

The change will come into effect for the forthcoming 2014-15 season and will enable The FA to conduct further research into mixed football at this older age group.

Kelly Simmons, FA Director of National Game and Women's Football, said: "This is really great news and we are delighted that The FA shareholders fully supported the rule change to enable boys and girls to play in the same teams if they wish to do so up to the U16 age group
Unquote

However, the reality is that past a certain age their physicality and strength (even skill) are very different, in general.

The Ladies' first team in our club are very unlikely to be able compete against the boy's under 14's A team, for example.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Reading @grumpy goby's post I found myself nodding quite a lot, especially over how you are and dress and still identify strongly as female, pretty much like myself although I don't do DIY if I can help it.
Yes I'm more of the homemaker, but only on my terms. Don't like or enjoy cooking, it's a chore and a boring one at that, have a huge tendency to ignore housework for as long as possible often to the extent of OH doing it in desperation, would much rather be out in the garden or walking the dog. Don't wear skirts and only have one in the wardrobe which hasn't been worn for years, no make up, hairstyle simple and short and so on. Interestingly I have thought on occasions that @grumpy goby was a male poster, so that's an interesting one

Years ago we lived next door to a couple who were teachers, he was a head teacher. He told us one occasion that he felt that boys and girls needed to be taught separately in classes as their requirements were different. He felt that lessons these days had become too orientated towards girls strengths, that of writing neatly and expressively, reading books that were more thoughtful rather then full of daring do and cars. He had no problem with mixed sex schools, just that some lessons should separate the sexes.
Then later, the senior school my children went to, decided as an experiment to split the boys from the girls for English subjects to see how this reflected in end of year exams. Previously the boys had lagged behind and had been disruptive in lessons and the exam results for the boys had been poor compared to the girls (in general). After the experiment where boys and girls had been given English lessons more tailored to their needs, the exam result became less polarised as the boys caught up with girls and the boys enjoyed the lessons more and wereless disruptive.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Argent said:


> On a side note, regarding identifying trans women and those who recognise them as men and not TW, I think it was H&M that recently did a beautifully inclusive 'all women' advert, and hordes of people complained about the trans person included. Only, the individual they were complaining about was in fact a cis woman, a top athelete. They didn't spot the trans woman at all...


what's a 'cis woman'?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

picaresque said:


> Men - "I must hurt any feminine person I share a bathroom with"
> Society - "Only natural"
> Women - "Bit scared of these males"
> Society - "Bigot"


Not once on this thread has anyone said or even implied ANY of this!

First of all, you're quoting all men as though they all have an urge to hurt any feminine person. That is not only incorrect, but also extremely offensive to any innocent man.

Secondly, society doesn't think it's "only natural" for any man to hurt any woman. I've no idea where you plucked that idea from but it's incorrect.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Nettles said:


> Not once on this thread has anyone said or even implied ANY of this!
> 
> First of all, you're quoting all men as though they all have an urge to hurt any feminine person. That is not only incorrect, but also extremely offensive to any innocent man.
> 
> Secondly, society doesn't think it's "only natural" for any man to hurt any woman. I've no idea where you plucked that idea from but it's incorrect.


The point is certain places are segregated by sex _for a reason_. Or shall we just give that idea up and have unisex prisons? What is it transwomen have to fear anyway, if it's not the potential for male violence? They fear being beaten up, right? It's ok to imply all men are a potential danger then, is it? But not if women want to defend their private spaces.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> Sadly, for some, it can be very difficult to disguise their 6'+, muscular frame, Adam's apple and huge hands.


See that could also be assumptions again. I'm speaking now of my own personal experience. I am unusually tall for a woman, I have very large hands that look manly from years of physical labor in horse barns, when I was younger and thinner I also had a very muscular frame, I am what I fondly call, "good peasant stock". Solid, and built to work. 
When I was younger I can't tell you how many times I was called "sir" wearing jeans and a t-shirt, or especially in the winter when my hair was in a hat and the heavy winter clothes were pretty much unisex.
Not that it should matter, but I am biologically a woman, and I identify as a woman.

Regarding the conversation about early socialization, as the mom of boy/girl twins, I can tell you that it does not matter what color you dress the baby in or what toys they play with, infants destined to be boys will become boys, infants destined to be girls will become girls.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

picaresque said:


> But not if women want to defend their private spaces.


See this is what I really don't get...I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just can't wrap my head around it!
It's not like Transgenders are asking to share a cubicle with another woman, so they can still toilet in private. All they want is to live their life in peace as the gender that they feel most comfortable with.
Why is that such a big deal?


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Phoenix Rising said:


> what's a 'cis woman'?


Cisgendered - when your sex and gender align from birth


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> See this is what I really don't get...I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just can't wrap my head around it!
> It's not like Transgenders are asking to share a cubicle with another woman, so they can still toilet in private. All they want is to live their life in peace as the gender that they feel most comfortable with.
> Why is that such a big deal?


It's not, to an extent. Its not like I'm necessarily against trans people using their preferred bathroom (except this about much more than bathrooms) - but there is a limit. I don't accept that gender identity trumps biological reality. Live and let live, until it starts impacting on the rights of other people. Like the rights of female prisoners not to be housed with a 'woman' who is capable of getting them pregnant.

As for kids destined to be boys or girls no matter what, that's something that happens at conception.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

picaresque said:


> The point is certain places are segregated by sex _for a reason_. Or shall we just give that idea up and have unisex prisons? What is it transwomen have to fear anyway, if it's not the potential for male violence? They fear being beaten up, right? It's ok to imply all men are a potential danger then, is it? But not if women want to defend their private spaces.


Again, nowhere in this thread has anyone said all men are a potential danger to women or transgender women. Not all men are a potential danger FULL STOP! I find it extremely offensive to have all the men in my life, who I love and trust, be lumped into the same category as the vile human being who sexually assaulted me.

I'm now done with this thread.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

NAMALT. I know. Some men though. Again, if not this, what is it transwomen have to fear, that they are unable to use men's facilities? They claim they are unsafe. Why?


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

This thread has been educational though not on topic with what the program was originally about. I think Argent's post was very interesting, I think we are often brought up to think anything that's 'not the norm' is scary or due to the person undergoing some horrific or sad experience. (eg a woman without kids is because she can't have them not because she doesn't want them) 

Example of this..when I went on a hen night for friends wedding earlier this year, another guest mentioned to me that another woman there was 'Asexual' ..I'd never heard of this! Apparently she didn't enjoy any intimate contact from either male or female. She'd also had her breasts removed because she didn't like them when they grew and will only have female dogs that have been spayed really young so they have no large visible nipples. .. now I have to admit my first thought was 'crikey something really horrific must have happened to her, for her to end up like that!' 

After watching that Horizon program and seeing the discussion on here regarding people's feelings about whether they are male or female I'm now thinking . maybe she wasn't subjected to an horrific experience, maybe she has just always felt like this because it's the way she is? ..and the scientific part of me (that looks for a logical explanation for everything) is wondering whether it's a result of not enough hormones to give her a sexual desire? .or some other medical reason.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2016)

picaresque said:


> As for kids destined to be boys or girls no matter what, that's something that happens at conception.


That's a very simplistic view of gender and doesn't really line up with reality.
Yes, technically an embryo with two X chromosomes is going to be female, and an embryo with an X and a Y chromosome is going to be male. But in practice, it doesn't always work out that way. Some babies with two X chromosomes end up developing a penis instead of a clitoris, or some babies with an X and a Y chromosome don't end up developing a penis at all, or some don't until puberty. And then of course there are those who develop both male and female genitals. There are those who develop normally for their gender but don't feel like that gender in their psyche. There are all sorts of things that affect gender identity outside of the biology and in addition to the biology.

It still happens with hermaphrodites that parents and doctors choose for the child what gender that child will be before the child ever has a say in it.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Again I was referring to biological sex, not gender. Gender is a societal construct. Intersex conditions are a different kettle of fish altogether. It's a rare anomaly. Sometimes babies are born with one or both legs missing, it doesn't change the fact that humans are bipeds.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

picaresque said:


> what is it transwomen have to fear, that they are unable to use men's facilities?


OK, it's not that a MtF person fears using a male bathroom as such (well apart from the abuse they can receive due to being ignorant twats). It is a case that they identify as a female in all aspects of their life so they shouldn't be made to feel that they have to use male bathrooms.
They aren't male, no matter how far along the trans journey they are...in their mind, they are female.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Is this a woman?
http://www.daniellemuscato.com

This is what prioritising self-identification above all results in. I refuse to grit my teeth and lie and say Danielle Muscato is a woman. ****. That.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

No one is asking you to say Danielle is a woman :/
I'm not sure why you have to call her anything tbh? She is someone that is starting her journey from what I read so not sure why she has been bought into the convo.

It doesn't matter to me that he now wants to be a she, why should it?


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Do you think Rachel Dolezal is black?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

picaresque said:


> Is this a woman?
> http://www.daniellemuscato.com
> 
> This is what prioritising self-identification above all results in. I refuse to grit my teeth and lie and say Danielle Muscato is a woman. ****. That.


I find it difficult to understand how this person just 'is' a woman. Maybe because I see a person with the physical features of a man and my brain automatically assumes man. I don't think that's wrong. I don't think society should be expected not to jump to those kind of assumptions.

This quote below is the kind of thing I find massively difficult to understand. I have never and will never been anti feminist or bigoted. I cannot accept this person with his penis, testicles, facial hair, deep voice and lifelong experience of being treated as a man by society, as anything other than a man. Further to this if it is Danielle Muscato's right to identify himself as a woman, isn't it my right, as a woman, to identify myself as something completely separate to him/her?


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

A man is telling us how to do feminism. And it's applauded because he says he's a woman.
A person can be so open minded that their brain falls out.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2016)

picaresque said:


> Is this a woman?
> http://www.daniellemuscato.com
> 
> This is what prioritising self-identification above all results in. I refuse to grit my teeth and lie and say Danielle Muscato is a woman. ****. That.


Wow. Why such anger? Does it matter to you what this person calls herself?


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Sadly such views don't surprise me, I have met people who want gay people to use different bathrooms.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

@ouesi I am angry. Why aren't you?
Can you not see the damage this is causing to women and women's rights?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

picaresque said:


> And it's applauded because he says he's a woman.


Who is applauding her?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

picaresque said:


> Is this a woman?
> http://www.daniellemuscato.com
> 
> This is what prioritising self-identification above all results in. I refuse to grit my teeth and lie and say Danielle Muscato is a woman. ****. That.


Whilst I appreciate some people feel in the wrong body, and want hormones /surgery to make their body more like they feel is "right", it's ridiculous to expect everyone else to play along and pretend they also see a woman in this photo. See how many of you agree with the statement " the photo below shows a bitch".


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Vanessa131 said:


> Sadly such views don't surprise me, I have met people who want gay people to use different bathrooms.


Maybe because they don't feel comfortable getting changed etc around people who may have a sexual interest in them?


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Well, I'd never heard of Danielle Muscato so following the link here I have reading up about her. Very interesting. She's actually just starting on her journey ...thus the beard ....so she does say expect a lot of changes in the coming years ......I've just read her coming out blog. But if that makes some people feel uncomfortable I have to accept that although I can't see it.

However let's not forget April Ashley. 
http://www.april-ashley.com

As for dogs with balls.....well they don't have to conform to gender so who knows how that dogs feels or how he expresses himself. He is lucky, he can just be himself and no one judges.

J


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2016)

picaresque said:


> @ouesi I am angry. Why aren't you?
> Can you not see the damage this is causing to women and women's rights?


Damage to women and women's rights? How?
Women's rights are human rights, and anything that humanizes people and gives equal rights is good for everyone.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I can understand why a mtf presenting outwardly as a female would use a Ladies loo.

I don't understand why a mtf presenting outwardly as a male would.

There are cubicles in both toilets.

My male OH occasionally uses the cubicle in the Gents so nobody would know what's in his trousers. They wouldn't bat an eyelid at him. 

I wonder which toilet Ms Muscato will use whilst clearly presenting outwardly as male?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Double posted


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Transgenderism doesnt bother me, some of their attitudes do. Eddie Izzard came under some fire by the community as he conflated his transvestitism with transgenderism claiming that he had "both girl genes and boy genes" resulting in him being...well him. Some people took huge offence to this statement, because he still identifies as a man with an extended wardrobe.. but that line of thinking seems as exclusionary as the TERF (trans exclusionary radical Fem) outlook... How can one claim to have the right to identify as the gender they want but then limit it to strictly MtF or FtM in the strictly conservative constructs of what M and F are; but nothing in between?

IMO the "shell" doesnt matter. The only point that I do "kind of" agree with re @picaresque is the part about being raised and treated as a male making a difference.

I was born a girl. I was raised a girl. I was encouraged to do girl things and people dispaired at my preference to jeans, bikes, cars, science project toys and 100% male friends. I rebelled against the system somewhat by wanting to do and be who I am. Did being a girl make it harder for me to do what I do now? I dont know - its been a difficult thing at work where people are less likely to pay attention to my technical opinion but as I am older (32), people dont see me as a young girl anymore its less of a struggle. When I was early 20s I actually had people ignore me at work, and look at the man I stood next to whilst I explained what the fault on the machine was, how i fixed it and that the bloke was just there to apply a compliance sticker (he was actually a painter) - they would still continue to address him and talk to him rather than me (the engineer). It damaged my confidence at work, and possibly slowed my progress. I didnt find my feet and confidence until my late 20s really... a lot later than my male counterparts - although possibly made me more stubborn and driven.
Arguably, TW have had the opportunities and attitudes growing up as a boy - possibly hindering their creative sides? Possibly giving them an advantage in "hard" subjects like maths and science which are still considered as boy subjects (something i hear constantly from girls in schools as I was doing STEM ambassador tours) but at the same time I imagine they feel oppressed for not being able to express themselves growing up because of how society see masculinity, in the same way tomboys like me struggle with societal expectations of fememinity - I cannot know as I was not born a boy so dont know what pressures that puts down, in the same one someone born a boy cannot know how what pressures societys puts on girls, even if you transition later in life.

My Trans friends complain that they are now fearful walking the streets alone at night, this is something *all* women feel - we check our friends are home safe, our male friends check we are home safe. We are told to stay in groups, not get in unbooked taxis - we don't consider this unusual... its something we have been told since the day we stepped out the door without dad. Im not sure TW really always understand that their fear is not unique in that sense. It is probably more akin to homophobic attacks if they do not "pass" as women, or if they are dating and not honest about their transition. (Violence is never acceptable, but I do feel a person has a choice to know if their potential date doesnt have your preferred genitalia... its true lesbians come under fire for not wanting to date pre-op TW)

Sadly, discussion on the issue is mostly stunted. Go on twitter and try. If you suggest anything around the idea that transwomen have benefitted from a male-centric society then you will be shut down, probably called a TERF and probably dog piled for being a bigot... we are not "allowed" an honest public opinion. Not all TW are like this, i have little experiance of TM, but its certainly a difficult discussion point.

I guess Im rambling somewhat, its a complicated issue and one I have contemplated often mainly due to my contact with TW at work and in life, and I do find it difficult to put my thoughts onto paper.
I dont mind sharing a toilet block, cubicles protect our decency. I have shared changing rooms although rather akwardly for all concerned. Transgenderism doesnt bother me, what bothers me is the stunted conversation around it these days because god forbid your opinion doesn't align with the hyper liberalism of twitter (and im as left as you like!). Discussions like this are vital to understanding, and free thought. They are often shut down with labelling people bigots.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

I don't know what being a woman is supposed to 'feel' like; what I do know is I have experienced thousands of things as a direct result of being biologically female or looking feminine. This is the same as all the biologically female people I know. These experiences have helped shaped me into the person I am. In my opinion, this is more valid than 'feeling' like a woman. 

This is why people who wish to transition NEED to live according to the way society defines a woman for a period of time. Men who identify as women but dont acknowledge that this is a vital stage of the transition process are trivialising and undermining what is to be a 1) a woman and 2) a transgendered woman. Why should we, as women, accept this? Because a man tells us to?!


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Damage to women and women's rights? How?
> Women's rights are human rights, and anything that humanizes people and gives equal rights is good for everyone.


I have tried to explain over the course of this thread how self-identification can have a negative impact on women. If you don't see it you don't see it.
If Ms Muscato became homeless, would they go to a men's or a women's shelter? If Ms Muscato was convicted of a crime should they be in a male or a female prison? This _matters_.
The current stance is that no transition, hormones, surgery, nada is necessary. All that's needed is for a person to say they are the opposite gender and that's that.


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

I was going to keep quiet but here we go

I am transmale (born female). I have lived as male for 3 years. I can guarantee if you saw me you would not know I was biologically female unless I told you.

For those who say that bathrooms should be used according to your biological sex because you would be worried if you saw a man in a women toilet, I can guarantee you wouldn't feel any safer seeing me. I have a deep voice, facial hair etc and look completely male. But you wouldn't want me using the male bathroom because of my genitalia.
Or is that okay because I'm not a trans woman?

And saying gay people shouldn't use bathrooms is the most ridiculous thing I have heard. I am not attracted to every woman I meet, why would a gay man be attracted to every man he sees or vice Versa?

Oh and a rapist isn't going to be stopped by the words "female" on the door


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

@grumpy goby I'm surprised it took so long for TERF to make an appearance :Bag


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Sorry for staggered replies, am posting on my phone which is a massive ovary ache.



StormyThai said:


> Who is applauding her?


Frankly, anyone who takes at face value this person's claim to be a woman. 
I don't know how many really believe it, deep down, but trans ideology has backed them into a corner.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

picaresque said:


> @grumpy goby I'm surprised it took so long for TERF to make an appearance :Bag


I was careful not to use it as a slur :Bag:Bag:Bag:Bag:Bag

I keep quiet on twitter as even though I think I'm pretty liberal in my views, my thoughts on societal impact would probably get me labelled and dogpiled as a TERF


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Canine K9 said:


> I was going to keep quiet but here we go
> 
> I am transmale (born female). I have lived as male for 3 years. I can guarantee if you saw me you would not know I was biologically female unless I told you.
> 
> ...


You should be using the male bathroom as you appear to be male. You have lived as a male and as you have stated, people would not know you were biologically female. I don't think your genetalia is of consequence unless your are attempting to use a urinal?! A trans woman who appears to be a female should be using the female bathroom. A trans woman or man who appears to be that of their biological gender should use the toilet of their biological gender. This is common sense, surely?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> I was careful not to use it as a slur :Bag:Bag:Bag:Bag:Bag
> 
> I keep quiet on twitter as even though I think I'm pretty liberal in my views, my thoughts on societal impact would probably get me labelled and dogpiled as a TERF


Had to go and look that one up.

It's getting so confusing with all the different acronyms, not sure if I'm coming or going (so to speak)


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Apparently the E no longer stands for Exclusionary but Exterminatory. Because questioning any of this is Literal Murder.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Canine K9 said:


> I was going to keep quiet but here we go
> 
> I am transmale (born female). I have lived as male for 3 years. I can guarantee if you saw me you would not know I was biologically female unless I told you.
> 
> ...


If someone is ftm and uses the male toilets (presumably a cubicle pre surgery?) then nobody would be any the wiser.

Likewise, mtf and uses a female toilet (all cubicles anyway).

In both cases, this will surely only go unnoticed if both parties pass as their trans gender?

The issue seems to arise when trans people look like their previous gender.

I'm not saying that's right or fair, but surely it is understandable?

Unisex, individual, self-contained cubicles in an open area would solve that issue.

It would also solve the problem of dads not having changing tables in the Gents for their babies/toddlers, kids past a certain age using one or other toilet with a parent/strangers of the opposite sex or getting to the age of toileting in private/alone themselves.

Not to mention the fact that there are nearly always queues in the Ladies'!


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

picaresque said:


> Apparently the E no longer stands for Exclusionary but Exterminatory. Because questioning any of this is Literal Murder.


 When did this happen? I twitter retired when I moved away.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> If someone is ftm and uses the male toilets (presumably a cubicle pre surgery?) then nobody would be any the wiser.
> 
> Likewise, mtf and uses a female toilet (all cubicles anyway).
> 
> ...


Then there is disabled facilities required by law in toilet blocks.

In the future there could be separate toilets for everyone in nice neat row, but I bet there would still be a queue at the female ones


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Siskin said:


> Then there is disabled facilities required by law in toilet blocks.
> 
> In the future there could be separate toilets for everyone in nice neat row, but I bet there would still be a queue at the female ones


But apart from restrictions on who uses the disabled ones which are often key operated, for good reason, all other toilets would be undesignated - available to all no matter what "bits" they have or how they dress.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

grumpy goby said:


> When did this happen? I twitter retired when I moved away.


Think it was a while ago. I can't keep up. Quite possibly the RF now stands for Repugnant Females.


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

bearcub said:


> You should be using the male bathroom as you appear to be male. You have lived as a male and as you have stated, people would not know you were biologically female. I don't think your genetalia is of consequence unless your are attempting to use a urinal?! A trans woman who appears to be a female should be using the female bathroom. A trans woman or man who appears to be that of their biological gender should use the toilet of their biological gender. This is common sense, surely?





Lurcherlad said:


> If someone is ftm and uses the male toilets (presumably a cubicle pre surgery?) then nobody would be any the wiser.
> 
> Likewise, mtf and uses a female toilet (all cubicles anyway).
> 
> ...


I agree with you both, however, I have read a lot (not just on here) that no trans woman should use the female bathroom because she has a penis- regardless of how well she passes. Like the Bathroom Bill in North Carolina that was going to be passed, said that people should use the bathroom that corresponds with their biological sex. Regardless of how well you pass. That would mean transmen would have to use the female bathroom, which I can't imagine women who are afraid of "men" in the female toilets, feeling any better about.

The main problem people seem to have about transpeople using their preferred bathroom, is the idea that transwomen only do so to sexually assault women. 
As it's not really fair to say you can only use the bathroom that corresponds with your gender, if you "pass", you would have to say that people should use the bathroom that matches their sex. Which isn't going to make anyone feel safer.

The only real solution would be the option of a unisex toilet.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> But apart from restrictions on who uses the disabled ones which are often key operated, for good reason, all other toilets would be undesignated - available to all no matter what "bits" they have or how they dress.


But just one man can't keep the loo drip free, I dread to think of dozens using a loo before me :Vomit


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rona said:


> But just one man can't keep the loo drip free, I dread to think of dozens using a loo before me :Vomit


I can't say I've found women to be any cleaner tbh


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> I can't say I've found women to be any cleaner tbh


Having spent around 6 years in a facilities and hard services management role, i can confirm... universally womens toilets are less gross than mens :Angelic

Also, its surprising how people react to a person CLEARLY the wrong gender in their bathroom if they think they are there for work. We always try to lock off toilet blocks we are working in - If I am in there looking at something (usually cos we are looking to upgrade, demolish, improve the facilities, or there is an ongoing problem due to design) - men will ignore the sign, whip it out and start using a urinal with me RIGHT THERE. Conversely, my plumbers report back that women are very rarely deterred by their presence (if they have bypassed the "engineers at work" sign) either... One of my guys came to my one day that a woman in one of our government offices, with a very posh accent and well presented, came in a declared loudly "Im sorry young man, but i really have to sh*t! and took herself off to a stall with him in the room)

So why people then get uptight about the theoretical chance of sharing a bathroom with a TW or TM is strange to me


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

rona said:


> But just one man can't keep the loo drip free, I dread to think of dozens using a loo before me :Vomit


Our toilets at work are individual but assigned to each gender and if there is someone in the female toilet, I sometimes use the males'. I have to say I never encounter any issues that I wouldn't encounter in female toilets i.e. the occasional floater, other things not flushed away, smells, drips... toilets are horrible no matter who is using them. I can't say I even notice or acknowledge the other users. I'm just in and out. However if the male toilets at work were multiple cubicles I would never use them out of consideration for male users who would not expect a woman to be in a male only space.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

It would probably help if we as society got over the fact that every single person wees and poos (and some women bleed) and 99.99999% of people in the toilet are there to quickly deal with their bodily issue and then get on with their day.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Actually, separate changing rooms/loos leading off a public space is probably the best way forward for everyone. No one has to worry about which one to use and no one has to worry about who else is in there because it's one person per unit.

I wouldn't be happy using an open changing room with a MTF person present, but I wouldn't be happy using one with a lot of women present either - I once worked in a place that had a communal ladies loo/changing room, and used to find it very unnerving when I had to share it with my lesbian line manager, who was prone to commenting loudly on which bits of her female staff members she did/didn't find attractive...


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> As for dogs with balls.....well they don't have to conform to gender so who knows how that dogs feels or how he expresses himself. He is lucky, he can just be himself and no one judges.
> 
> J


True. But then if I say It see a dog and not a bitch nobody says my mental description of a bitch is not only inaccurately narrow, but anti bitch and bigoted.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Well, I'd never heard of Danielle Muscato so following the link here I have reading up about her. Very interesting. She's actually just starting on her journey ...thus the beard ....so she does say expect a lot of changes in the coming years ......I've just read her coming out blog. But if that makes some people feel uncomfortable I have to accept that although I can't see it.
> 
> However let's not forget April Ashley.
> http://www.april-ashley.com
> ...


If she is the woman in those pics I wouldn't realise she had previously been a male if she came into same toilets as me. However the Dave/Danielle person is NOT a woman they look nothing like one and said they still have male anatomy and would be horrified to see him going into the ladies. I just wouldn't use them. To me, technically he's no where near a woman until he's gone through the surgery and looks like a woman as well as having female anatomy. If he wants to be a woman why hasn't he shaved his beard, started hormones already to look more feminine. It's like me going into work tomorrow in a tight dress accentuating my boobs and hips and declaring I'm a man! .. but with no intention of even attempting to look like one! ..political correctness gone mad!


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

'Don't you oppress me'


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Phoenix Rising said:


> If she is the woman in those pics I wouldn't realise she had previously been a male if she came into same toilets as me. However the Dave/Danielle person is NOT a woman they look nothing like one and said they still have male anatomy and would be horrified to see him going into the ladies. I just wouldn't use them. To me, technically he's no where near a woman until he's gone through the surgery and looks like a woman as well as having female anatomy. If he wants to be a woman why hasn't he shaved his beard, started hormones already to look more feminine. It's like me going into work tomorrow in a tight dress accentuating my boobs and hips and declaring I'm a man! .. but with no intention of even attempting to look like one! ..political correctness gone mad!


Not all TW (not sure about TM) hav full surgery as its expensive and invasive (obviously). The hormone replacement however does a huge amount before going under the knife... moods, face shape, body shape, hair , behaviour all change under the hormone treatment. Often TW also have laser treatment for unwanted hair growth.... it's not always as clear cut as female anatomy. I have seen some beautiful women, who happen to have a penis. (I believe it also changes and loses some or all function through hormone treatment?)


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

grumpy goby said:


> Not all TW (not sure about TM) hav full surgery as its expensive and invasive (obviously). The hormone replacement however does a huge amount before going under the knife... moods, face shape, body shape, hair , behaviour all change under the hormone treatment. Often TW also have laser treatment for unwanted hair growth.... it's not always as clear cut as female anatomy. I have seen some beautiful women, who happen to have a penis. (I believe it also changes and loses some or all function through hormone treatment?)


I get that surgery is expensive but they usually shave, grow their hair or attempt to dress up very feminine if they are serious. He looks like a man who suddenly decided to announce he's a woman one day to see what people will say! The April Ashley person looks very like a woman I don't know whether they've undergone surgery or not But I wouldn't at first glance immediately see a man in drag.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

picaresque said:


> 'Don't you oppress me'


Hah! Actually laughed out loud, thanks I needed that this morning.

" Why don't we agree that he can't actually have babies, but that he has the right to have babies?":Facepalm


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

picaresque said:


> 'Don't you oppress me'


Brilliant. Although I'm supposed to be working from home today and now I want to watch the whole film


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Catharinem said:


> Hah! Actually laughed out loud, thanks I needed that this morning.
> 
> " Why don't we agree that he can't actually have babies, but that he has the right to have babies?":Facepalm


"I want to be a woman... it's my right as a man". Just about sums it up.


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