# Siamese kittens



## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

Hi everyone! I am new to this forum. I live in Alberta, Canada and am a cat-a-holic! I have 6 cats, they are my pampered babies. For the last two years I have been doing cat rescue (mainly local farm cats) and have successfully rehomed around 100 kittens. I foster a lot out and pay the expenses for them while in foster care. I have a large, insulated cat house and will be getting another one in a couple months. I use an oil heater and it keeps it very comfy for them - they have their own kitty paradise!

About a month ago I bought a couple Siamese kittens. Alaska is my seal point male and Keira is the lilac point female. When they are mature I plan to breed them. I have done plenty of research, particularly on Siamese and I understand they can be fertile quite early! So in another couple months I will have have to move one of them to the new house so there are no "accidents". They will always have company as my other kitties are all fixed. 

I have attached a few pictures of my little darlings. I hope to be able to gain some advice and knowledge from this forum, particularly once I actually start breeding them. I am also very fortunate to have an awesome vet to work with and one I have a good rapport with.

I am going to spend some time doing some more browsing on the forum - looks like there is a wealth if information here!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Welcome to PF and to your adorable kittens  They look as if they are the older style of Siamese which we don't see so much in the UK. My own are something between that style and the more modern, extreme with wider placed ears.
I don't know the registration processes in Canada but assume your two are registered for breeding. Siamese can indeed mature early - one of my girls started calling at 4 1/2 months  An adult male will need at least three queens to keep him happy throughout the year so you may have to think about bringing in girls from outside. If you do you will need to be sure that they are free from disease, especially FeLV and FIV - in the UK a snap test is usually required 24 hours before queens go to stud.
Good luck with your breeding programme :thumbup1:


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't want to come across negative but where did you buy these kittens from?

They are absolutely, utterly gorgeous :001_wub:
But I am not convinced they are pure Siamese.
Their coat for a start looks quite plush for Siamese? 

Do you have their family trees? What registry are they with?
Also, what is your purpose for breeding?
Because if it's for conformation it can be difficult to get a real feel of their quality until they mature a bit.
As adults, they might not complement each other.


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

Sparkle22 said:


> I don't want to come across negative but where did you buy these kittens from?
> 
> They are absolutely, utterly gorgeous :001_wub:
> But I am not convinced they are pure Siamese.
> ...


I think being in a colder climate might have a lot to do with their thicker coats and they look like pure Siamese to me, the old apple head style.

Gorgeous kitties


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

Thank-you! Yes, they are very precious - very sweet personalities too. No, I actually don't have papers - I would definitely like to get into registered breeding at some point though. These ones were sold to me without papers, however I did see the parents. 

Yes, they are pure - they definitely have a heavier coat right now it being winter. It gets crazy cold here, so it is good the heater keeps their house warm!


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

That's true, I didn't consider that. The temperature will affect the points also.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

If all goes well I would like to add another female or two, but I want to make sure everything is going well and there are no problems that I can't handle. There shouldn't be, but I want to go slow so if I absolutely needed to I could just get them fixed. I just don't want to be in over my head since I am just starting out.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Azura said:


> Thank-you! Yes, they are very precious - very sweet personalities too. No, I actually don't have papers - I would definitely like to get into registered breeding at some point though. These ones were sold to me without papers, however I did see the parents.
> 
> Yes, they are pure - they definitely have a heavier coat right now it being winter. It gets crazy cold here, so it is good the heater keeps their house warm!


If your going to do breeding 'the right way' you will definitely need papers.
Don't underestimate the importance of papers, for a start, it allows you to research the family and avoid breeding in cosmetic or physical faults and diseases.
Faults can skip generations, just because the grandparents look like excellent examples, that doesn't mean their grandkittens will! 
It also ensures you don't accidently breed related cats.
Additionally, a high quality Tom or Queen owner will insist on papers, without them, you can only breed to other unregistered cats which isn't advisable. 
Papers are also useful for buyers, lots of prospective buyers will insist on them.

They will need health testing also, don't rely on a vet check.
All pedigree breeds have a number of genetic conditions that they may not show symptoms of but can pass onto their kittens, they must be screened for these diseases.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Azura said:


> Thank-you! Yes, they are very precious - very sweet personalities too. No, I actually don't have papers - I would definitely like to get into registered breeding at some point though. These ones were sold to me without papers, however I did see the parents.
> 
> Yes, they are pure - they definitely have a heavier coat right now it being winter. It gets crazy cold here, so it is good the heater keeps their house warm!


In the UK this type of breeding is very much frowned on and no one with registered queens would go to an unregistered stud - and vice versa, a stud owner would not take in an unregistered queen.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

And to answer Sparkle's question - I am breeding for pet kittens, not so much for confirmation. I plan to screen each and every buyer carefully as I have gotten good at doing. I want the little ones to only go to the best of homes. I plan to keep the kittens till at least 9-10 weeks, but I have read longer is preferred so I will probably keep them longer so they have the best start possible.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Pet kittens should still be from papered parents so that you avoid breeding related cats.
They must be screened also for genetic disease.
This is expensive. 
The kittens should be staying until 12 weeks old.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

Yes, you all make very good points. I don't think every cat bred necessarily has to be show quality however, and I certainly do not plan to "pump out kittens" for profit. That is just wrong. My cats get vet care, a raw and canned diet and plenty of pampering. I only want the best for them.

I plan to breed these cats sensibly and I definitely would want to retire Keira as early as is necessary for her health and well being.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

12 weeks makes sense - I have heard some keep them till 16 weeks and I think that can be a little excessive.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Sorry, but this "I am not breeding for show quality" mentality is quite same as the "I only want a pet kitten of a certain breed, so I don't need the papers" pet buyer mentality. Not a fan. How do you know you are breeding from healthy, unrelated parents? It's not okay to breed from unregistered cats.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Azura said:


> Yes, you all make very good points. I don't think every cat bred necessarily has to be show quality however, and I certainly do not plan to "pump out kittens" for profit. That is just wrong. My cats get vet care, a raw and canned diet and plenty of pampering. I only want the best for them.
> 
> I plan to breed these cats sensibly and I definitely would want to retire Keira as early as is necessary for her health and well being.


With respect, without papers you cannot breed sensibly.

Without papers, you wont know if the cat you breed your cat to is actually it's sibling - that could cause serious problems for the resultant kittens.

Without papers, you won't know if one of the cats has a relative somewhere in their history with a problem that cannot be screened for, epilepsy for example. 
If they do, you could produce kittens that will go on to be epileptic or whatever other problems are in the line.

Without papers, you cannot research the breeders of the relatives and get a feel for the temperaments of their cats.
Temperament is partly environmental and partly genetic.
Siamese are prone to certain behavioural problems, like wool sucking which sounds benign but can actually be really serious.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Azura said:


> Yes, you all make very good points. I don't think every cat bred necessarily has to be show quality however, and I certainly do not plan to "pump out kittens" for profit. That is just wrong. My cats get vet care, a raw and canned diet and plenty of pampering. I only want the best for them.
> 
> I plan to breed these cats sensibly and I definitely would want to retire Keira as early as is necessary for her health and well being.


Not all kittens from any mating will be show quality and the majority of kitten buyers are not interested in showing but that doesn't mean that a breeder shouldn't be doing all within their power to produce kittens of the best standard as they can.
And Sparkles is right - without the proper paperwork you can't know if your cats are related to any others you might buy. You can't even know their relationship to each other especially if they came from the same breeder. That's why breeding without the proper registration papers is frowned on here - I doubt that it's any different in other countries.
I would be the last to want to deter anyone who wanted to breed - we all have to start somewhere but that somewhere should be the best place possible ... properly registered, health checked cats with the help of their breeder as a mentor


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

I do see the point of registered breeding, and I would like to do that at some point definitely. I do know these two are not related, as I saw the parents - so certainly not siblings! The breeders of Alaska had both the mother and father on site. I am going to make sure I know what I need to get done to ensure their health before breeding for sure. I am glad to have a good vet to work with especially for this. I trust 
that he knows what he is doing and have not had bad experiences there at all.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

And yes, they definitely came from completely different breeders! Definitely no inbreeding there.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

What you saw were four Siamese cats.
Without papers you don't know that they are the parents. 

What colour were Alaskas parents and what colour were Kiera's parents?
you would be amazed the lengths some deceitful people go to. 

How can you be sure that Alaska or Kiera's fathers have never been used at stud by other breeders?

How can you be sure that none of the kittens ever produced by Alaskas parents or Kiera's parents have been bred by others?
I would imagine that your kittens are not the result of single lone litter. 

Without DNA testing them, you actually only have the word of the people you bought them from that they do not share any close relatives.

Your vet won't be able to do the necessary tests.
Your Siamese will need to be tested for progressive retinal atrophy (pra), unless your vet happens to be a registered opthamologist, he can't do this for you. 
Your cats will need to be screened for other diseases too, PRA is just one disease that Siamese are prone to.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Azura said:


> And yes, they definitely came from completely different breeders! Definitely no inbreeding there.


You actually don't know how closely related they are without their correct pedigrees. Although they are from different breeders, their cats might be more closely related than you think. I got back at least 8 generations to find out how inbred the kittens from a mating will be. With Lola it is not obvious from the 4-generation pedigree of her kittens that her father is also her grandfather. If you have a kitten with that sort of pedigree she MUST go to an outcross, not a related male.

I don't understand why you want to start breeding with unregistered cats producing unregistered kittens - it's as much work, time & cost as breeding kittens you can register.

I am also dubious about those kitten's coats - they look far, far too long. At first I thought they were Balinese, the semi-longhair version. They shouldn't be living anywhere cold enough to make their coats long (as in they should be in heated accommodation).



> I don't think every cat bred necessarily has to be show quality however, and I certainly do not plan to "pump out kittens" for profit. That is just wrong. My cats get vet care, a raw and canned diet and plenty of pampering. I only want the best for them.


If you manage to produce a litter that are all show quality you will be very, very lucky. And if you breed well - kittens go at 12+, vaccinated, wormed & neutered - you will only make a small profit with a big trouble-free litter.

I feel you should neuter these two and start over with one registered for breeding female, and take her to someone else's stud. If you use the boy as a stud you will not be able to use him with any of his daughters plus you will have to have a decent stud house for him, and be able to provide him with enough 'work' to keep him happy. Keeping a stud isn't for the faint-hearted and certainly isn't for the novice which is what you are.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sparkle22 said:


> <snip>
> Your Siamese will need to be tested for progressive retinal atrophy (pra), unless your vet happens to be a registered opthamologist, he can't do this for you.
> Your cats will need to be screened for other diseases too, PRA is just one disease that Siamese are prone to.


PRA is the only disease Siamese in the UK are tested for, it's the only disease Langford suggest Siamese are tested for, and it's easily done by taking a check swab and posting it off to Langford. They will accept swabs from most of the world.

I strongly recommend you test both kittens if you do continue to breed them.

Care to suggest what other diseases Siamese are prone to, that is diseases which can be tested for?


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

Thank-you for the information, I really appreciate it! I have done reading on PRA - I will have to continue reading on other genetic tests that are wise to get done on them. 

And you are right - I don't have absolute proof of parentage. However, Alaska came from an older couple who had two Siamese cats they bred occasionally as a hobby. The mum was seal point and the dad a chocolate point. Keira's mom was blue point, not sure about her dad. 

In the parentage I agree I take a certain amount of risk, but after talking to the breeders and finding out the info I did I feel it is very small risk.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Azura said:


> Thank-you for the information, I really appreciate it! I have done reading on PRA - I will have to continue reading on other genetic tests that are wise to get done on them.
> 
> And you are right - I don't have absolute proof of parentage. However, Alaska came from an older couple who had two Siamese cats they bred occasionally as a hobby. The mum was seal point and the dad a chocolate point. Keira's mom was blue point, not sure about her dad.
> 
> In the parentage I agree I take a certain amount of risk, but after talking to the breeders and finding out the info I did I feel it is very small risk.


Why? Why breed from cats of unknown (as in no pedigree) parentage when it's just as little (or much) hard work breeding from registered cats? If the cost of buying registered breeding cats is an issue then I imagine the cost of a C-section would be. If no-one is willing to sell you cats that are registered for breeding there is probably a good reason.

Yes these are cute kittens, but ALL kittens are cute.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

I do already have stud quarters for him that he will be moving into later. I also have a large penned run so he can get into the fresh air as well. I also may try harness training him. One of my other kitties is harness trained and it works awesome! 

The strange thing is I have read that plenty of breeders line breed and sometimes inbreed. And I am talking registered ones too. That I don't understand - especially purposely breeding close relatives.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

No, money is not a problem. I have found breeders are reluctant or completely unwilling to sell to a novice. And they always require showing, which I am not super interested in doing. I think quality, healthy, well adjusted cats can be bred without showing. I would be interested in getting into registered breeding, but not quite at this point. 

All my cats get proper vet care and I do not skimp on their well being. Just their raw/canned diet costs me plenty. I used to feed dry food but have become quite disillusioned. I love my cats, and no I am not perfect, but will continue to do everything possible to ensure they live long, healthy, happy lives.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> PRA is the only disease Siamese in the UK are tested for, it's the only disease Langford suggest Siamese are tested for, and it's easily done by taking a check swab and posting it off to Langford. They will accept swabs from most of the world.
> 
> I strongly recommend you test both kittens if you do continue to breed them.
> 
> Care to suggest what other diseases Siamese are prone to, that is diseases which can be tested for?


Just because a breed club or laboratory currently list one disease that doesn't mean they shouldn't be screened for other ailments if a test for them exists. 
Just look at all the breed clubs for dogs who suggest a tiny amount of recommended tests when the breed is prone to many more that can be tested for.

I am pretty sure a test for Gangliosis exists, I don't know if there would be any way of checking for heart disease or asthma, a scan maybe?


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Azura said:


> No, money is not a problem. I have found breeders are reluctant or completely unwilling to sell to a novice. And they always require showing, which I am not super interested in doing. I think quality, healthy, well adjusted cats can be bred without showing. I would be interested in getting into registered breeding, but not quite at this point.
> 
> All my cats get proper vet care and I do not skimp on their well being. Just their raw/canned diet costs me plenty. I used to feed dry food but have become quite disillusioned. I love my cats, and no I am not perfect, but will continue to do everything possible to ensure they live long, healthy, happy lives.


They will be even more unlikely to sell to you in the future if they get wind of the fact that you've been breeding unregistered cats.

And if you inadvertently produce kittens with debilitating problems because you haven't been able to study the pedigree properly and have made a bit of a boo boo then you aren't really taking too much care of their wellbeing are you?


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

Like I said, I will make sure they are proved healthy before breeding. I am not just randomly throwing cats together for "cute babies". All of my other cats are fixed and were all rescues. Any future cats will always be fixed unless they are gotten with the specific purpose of breeding.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Azura said:


> Like I said, I will make sure they are proved healthy before breeding. I am not just randomly throwing cats together for "cute babies". All of my other cats are fixed and were all rescues. Any future cats will always be fixed unless they are gotten with the specific purpose of breeding.


Well, I think it's safe to say you have been provided with all the information you need in bright, flashing, neon lights as to why it such a terrible idea.

Without the knowledge of bloodlines, eventually you will inadvertently breed closely related cats together then who knows what will happen. 
There are diseases in this breed that are very serious, some can be tested for, some not, but if you knew the pedigrees you could study and find out about any hereditary diseases in there.

Why you couldn't have bought a nice cat from you liked then got another, registered for breeding off the same breeder I do not know.

Shame.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sparkle22 said:


> Just because a breed club or laboratory currently list one disease that doesn't mean they shouldn't be screened for other ailments if a test for them exists.
> Just look at all the breed clubs for dogs who suggest a tiny amount of recommended tests when the breed is prone to many more that can be tested for.
> 
> I am pretty sure a test for Gangliosis exists, I don't know if there would be any way of checking for heart disease or asthma, a scan maybe?


Langford are the people for feline gene tests in the UK and they have a commercial interest in more gene testing. There are two sorts of gangliadosis, gm2 in Burmese which there is a test for and gm1 which they don't have a test for. Uc Davies do but list it for korats not Siamese.

Heart disease isn't an especial issue in Siamese unlike ragdolls, Maine coons and a number of other breeds, and a cat with any asthma symptoms should not be bred from. Its not possible to tell now if a healthy cat (or human) will develop asthma in the future. As with humans removing exposure to smoke and reducing exposure to fragrances & other common triggers (room freshners, strongly scented cleaning materials, perfume, dusty cat litter etc.) reduces the likelihood of a cat developing asthma.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

Yah, overall the Siamese seems to be a fairly healthy breed. I know people who breed Persians and Ragdolls and heart disease is an important test for them. I think part of the problem is some of these cats have been so highly bred and sometimes bred for a flat face for instance like the Persians which can lead to breathing problems. 

It seems sometimes your average barn cat running around outside is healthier than some of the highly bred pedigree cats!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Azura said:


> I have found breeders are reluctant or completely unwilling to sell to a novice.


If you go slowly, start by showing a neuter you learn all about the breed standards and make friends with other breeders, find a mentor which is very important, and showing also opens doors for when you do begin breeding. You'll develop an eye for the type of stud to choose to best compliment your girl instead of just putting 2 cats together.
I really can't understand why anyone would want to be a BYB



Azura said:


> It seems sometimes your average barn cat running around outside is healthier than some of the highly bred pedigree cats!


It only seems that way because no one monitors or keeps any records of moggies, everything a pedigree can have also shows up in moggies.



Azura said:


> I am not just randomly throwing cats together for "cute babies".


Then what are you breeding for? As they're not registered you're not breeding to improve the next generation, to breed your next show cat or a show cat for someone else.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Azura said:


> <snip>
> I am not just randomly throwing cats together for "cute babies".
> <snip>


Since you don't have pedigrees you can be sure of or these kittens I can't see how your plan is anything but random.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

With breeding, disregarding whether you want to breed show/breeding quality kittens or not, I don't see how it is not important to know the lines you are working with. I have spent hours and hours studying pedigree lines, how certain lines go together and how the kittens develop. However novice I am, I have also done my part in showing enough to not feel the need to go with the look that is now praised in my specific breed at the show ring, because I know how I want to contribute to the breed and what I want to achieve and it is not a show winner type. So I take it that you love your breed and your cats, therefore disregarding the fact that you are not looking to breed "show quality" kittens, you still have your reasons why to breed and know how you want to contribute to the breed, no? 

In this case, breeding unregistered cats as a way to "start" as a breeder is honestly not the way to go. Without knowing the lines you will not be able to contribute to the breed in any way, in fact you might achieve the opposite, besides probably ruining your reputation and chances of any pedigree breeder ever selling you a breeding kitten. Trust me - breeding world is small, things get around quickly. 

As for no one wanting to sell you a registered breeding kitten as a novice - you do not neccessarily need to start showing your cats (if you don't like that), all it takes is maybe visiting a few shows and getting to know the breeders, adding them on FB, etc, anything but the awful e-mail conversations where they cannot get the proper feeling about you.


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

From being a member of this forum for several years I have learned so much.

I'd listen to the reputable breeders on here giving you advice.

If you do want to breed, make sure you get cats that have a proper pedigree, so you know their history, and make sure you know for sure they are healthy.

There are so many kittens in this world, don't bring more in unless you are looking for truly better the breed and produce healthy, great examples. 

I'm sure you mean very well and your kittens are just beautiful, but without papers and a definite history your kittens, however well cared for may carry genetic disadvantages and really I think we should either rescue, or buy from very well breed cats from reputable breeders x


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Polski said:


> I think being in a colder climate might have a lot to do with their thicker coats and they look like pure Siamese to me, the old apple head style.
> 
> Gorgeous kitties


The climate outside might be cold but I imagine these kittens live in a nice warm house...


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

Azura said:


> I have found breeders are reluctant or completely unwilling to sell to a novice.





Sparkle22 said:


> They will be even more unlikely to sell to you in the future if they get wind of the fact that you've been breeding unregistered cats.


I am not at all trying to play devil's advocate or ruffle any sensitive feathers here, but isn't this a bit of a Catch-22. If a novice can't get a breeder to sell to them, then how *does* one get started at breeding properly? It seems like every time someone comes on here, either half-baked or completely informed, it doesn't matter. The majority shouts them down because they can find a flaw in their breeding plan. I really don't recall there being a lot of support for any new breeders who have shared their plans on here.

I'm always left wondering how does anyone get started at all, since good breeders are made, not born? I guess it would make for an interesting thread, especially if some of the better respected newer breeders weighed in on how you did it yourselves.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

dagny0823 said:


> I am not at all trying to play devil's advocate or ruffle any sensitive feathers here, but isn't this a bit of a Catch-22. If a novice can't get a breeder to sell to them, then how *does* one get started at breeding properly? It seems like every time someone comes on here, either half-baked or completely informed, it doesn't matter. The majority shouts them down because they can find a flaw in their breeding plan. I really don't recall there being a lot of support for any new breeders who have shared their plans on here.
> 
> I'm always left wondering how does anyone get started at all, since good breeders are made, not born? I guess it would make for an interesting thread, especially if some of the better respected newer breeders weighed in on how you did it yourselves.


I think your meant to start with one show neuter or a pet if you can't find a breeder who will sell straight off, then when the breeder trusts you more you buy a second for breeding?
But yes, it is very disappointing and frustrating when it seems no one is willing to give you a chance.

The only problem I have, well actually two, is that without papers you can't find out about certain hereditary problems or whether you are inadvertently breeding relations which can cause big problems and the fact that I am not convinced the cats in question are pure Siamese to begin with.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

I think what a lot of people don't realize is that not all Siamese look the same. The modern, sleek, super short coat is quite common and people think that is "the look" that indicates if they are pure or not. Definitely not true! The kittens I have are the Traditional apple head type. If you take a look at www.laramicattery.com under "adopted kittens" you will see that they look like my kittens. And those ones are obviously pure - registered and everything.

I personally prefer the Traditional look, and that is what I am aiming to reproduce. While I agree with health tests even that can go too far I think in some cases. Seriously, if people were required to go through the hoops some animal breeders do, not many people would be having kids! Not that every person should necessarily reproduce, but that is still their choice.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Differing styles isn't an excuse for a cat not to have papers and be registered.

There are breeders who prefer the 'traditional' look, which is why they worked hard to get TICA to allow them to be shown and awarded titles. They didn't simply breed unpapered pets.

Do you honestly not see the type and coat difference between the kittens pictured and the link in the last post?


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Azura said:


> I think what a lot of people don't realize is that not all Siamese look the same. The modern, sleek, super short coat is quite common and people think that is "the look" that indicates if they are pure or not. Definitely not true! The kittens I have are the Traditional apple head type. If you take a look at Larami Cattery under "adopted kittens" you will see that they look like my kittens. And those ones are obviously pure - registered and everything.
> 
> I personally prefer the Traditional look, and that is what I am aiming to reproduce. While I agree with health tests even that can go too far I think in some cases. Seriously, if people were required to go through the hoops some animal breeders do, not many people would be having kids! Not that every person should necessarily reproduce, but that is still their choice.


My dad is an ex Siamese cat breeder so I know a fair bit about the breed, I don't profess to be an 'expert', far from it, but in my honest opinion, your cats are either not pure Siamese or poorly bred Siamese. 
I am well aware of the old style/classic Siamese. 
I prefer them also to the more extreme type that is winning in the show ring.

The coat on your cats, in my opinion, is too long and plush. 
I have never seen a Siamese kitten with that kind of coat. 
Like OrientalSlave, my first thought also was Balinese. 
Without papers, neither of us can say with any certainty what they are, regardless of if you have seen the parents or not.
Did you see the papers of the parents?
If not, they are 'colour pointed domestic shorthairs' technically.

I am also in two minds about their face/head shape but happy to be corrected. 
I have seen genuine classic Siamese with that head and face shape but the wedge shape characteristic to the breed doesn't seem to be particularly defined, even in (good quality) old style cats I have seen the face has usually still had a wedge shaped head, just not as extreme.

Also, health testing is done for one purpose - for the benefit of the cats and their offspring.
No such thing as too far when looking out for the health of your cats in my opinion.

Edited to add - a Google reveals that 'traditional apple head' and 'traditional old style/classic' are somewhat blurred and interchangeable with some breeders taking Traditional applehead to mean a cat, that to me looks like a colour pointed british shorthair; quite stocky, very rounded face, heavy boned and some believing traditional applehead to what I always thought, a less extreme cat, still svelte with a wedge face and normally placed ears.

Your cats certainly don't conform to the first type of Applehead in my opinion. 
Which type of applehead are you aiming to produce?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Your kittens look to have completely different coats - much longer. Their coats are also rather shady, looks like they will get dark very young. If you want to breed traditional style Siamese that is fine but it would be a lot easier if you started with genuine traditional style Siamese instead of a pair of approximate look alike.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The following might be of interest - note Julia's comment that they were pet quality kittens even back in 1971:

Palantir Cats - the first litter


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Photos of a number of Siamese including pannaduloa blazer, red point who won the supreme in 1986.

Red Point & Tortie Point Siamese

Zachary Apollo won in 1982:

http://www.siamese-cat-breeder.co.uk/siamese-cats/siamese-cat-picture-gallery/


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> The following might be of interest - note Julia's comment that they were pet quality kittens even back in 1971:
> 
> Palantir Cats - the first litter


ooh thanks, love a bit of meezer history  Julia was an smacking breeder, did so much for the breed with her crossing this and that.

Interesting that back then you could show and even breed unregistered cats!


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I've been following this thread with interest, for no other reason than that I am really interested in the Siamese breed.
My first impression of the photos at the beginning was that these kittens are not Siamese nor do they look anything like a Siamese.
Happy to be proved wrong. Still reading


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

moggie14 said:


> I've been following this thread with interest, for no other reason than that I am really interested in the Siamese breed.
> My first impression of the photos at the beginning was that these kittens are not Siamese nor do they look anything like a Siamese.
> Happy to be proved wrong. Still reading


Since apparently they are not registered there isn't any proof that they are Siamese.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I have never ever seen Siamese that look like those...


Also you bought a male and female... You will need to keep the separated as he could mate her too young, he may also start spraying and pooing in your house for girls, 1 girl will probably not be enough for him...

Totally pointless from my point of view, just do it properly, most kittens in litters go to pet homes, you can only keep so many, but they are bred with a purpose and planning and health in mind, not just cute kittys churning out as pets, you also cant sell them as Siamese as that isn't true they have no papers, they are domestic or moggies.

You don't need to show to be a good breeder, having standards and doing it properly is a good enough start!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

MollyMilo said:


> ooh thanks, love a bit of meezer history  Julia was an smacking breeder, did so much for the breed with her crossing this and that.
> 
> Interesting that back then you could show and even breed unregistered cats!


She was fortunate to be breeding when some interesting programs were running, but these were well-thought out programs which had a clear aim in mind, not just random outcrosses. There were some unexpected results but that's the nature of experiments.

She also looks to have had at least one 'oops' litter and did test matings to investigate the behaviour of the Burmese / Siamese / Recessive white gene variants, and to clear some of her cats of being overstamped 'may carry longhair'. Thankfully we can simply send a check swab off these days.

Siamese are no longer an accepted outcross for Devon Rex but their legacy lives on in the Sirex (pointed Devon Rex) and those with darker points - Tonkinese colouring.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

Taylorbaby said:


> I have never ever seen Siamese that look like those...
> 
> Also you bought a male and female... You will need to keep the separated as he could mate her too young, he may also start spraying and pooing in your house for girls, 1 girl will probably not be enough for him...
> 
> ...


You probably haven't, but there are lots of Siamese in my area that look exactly like them. Registered ones too!

And of course I will be separating them - I stated earlier in this thread that I am getting another cat house and within a month or two will be separating them. Not much danger of them mating at 2 1/2 months!! I am prepared for spraying - my cat house in made out of insulated metal panels.

If people ask if they are purebreds, I will tell them I believe they are and the breeders said they are, but do not have the papers to prove it. Most people in our area are looking for a beautiful, well raised and socialized, healthy, happy kitten. Their first concern isn't always the papers.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Just out of interest, do you have any photographs of the parents? 

Or their pedigree names if you saw papers for them, I know the kittens don't have papers but their parents might have done?


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

I have a picture of the mother of Alaska. I didn't see papers, no. I do have their phone numbers though, so I may ask if I could get more information on that. I'll attach Alaska's mother's picture.


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

They are very sweet colour point Moggies. It is false advertising to sell them as Siamese without papers although many back yard breeders do. 

Rescues are full of Moggies needing good homes, you are just adding to the problem by not doing it properly. I don't believe you can't get hold of a breeding registered queen if your dad was a Siamese breeder. It's not that difficult or impossible although you may have to put some work in. 

What you are doing is immoral in my opinion.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Lunabuma said:


> They are very sweet colour point Moggies. It is false advertising to sell them as Siamese without papers although many back yard breeders do.
> 
> Rescues are full of Moggies needing good homes, you are just adding to the problem by not doing it properly. I don't believe you can't get hold of a breeding registered queen if your dad was a Siamese breeder. It's not that difficult or impossible although you may have to put some work in.
> 
> What you are doing is immoral in my opinion.


I think you have confused me with the OP!
My dad was a siamese breeder, but unless I have missed a post, I don't think the OP's dad was.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

It isn't my dad who was the breeder - that was Sparkle's. And of course we are both entitled to our own opinions. I respect yours. I have worked out an planned this out carefully. I also would not be against spaying and neutering them if this does not work out. I also have no intention of lying to people - I will let them know I cannot prove they are pure breds. I won't be forging papers or something stupid!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

This is about Julia and nothing about Canadian Siamese kittens. Sorry. The cinnamon lines were shunned because of the overstampings 'may carry longhair' (from the sorrel abyssinian used to investigate 'red' abys) and the 'may carry recessive white' (from Maureen Silson's desire to investigate recessive whites.) 

When Julia acquired Red Fred, she wanted to remove the longhair overstamping from her cats and she offered him to others to do the same. Then she concentrated on promoting the Angoras (now called Oriental Longhairs) because she preferred to blaze a trail and leave others to work on type.

She encouraged breeders to mate their orientals to remove the recessive white overstamping which is easy to do but there are still cats overstamped. Some have not been cleared but some should have had the overstamping removed but apparently the GCCF office has no clue about it. (If she were still here, she would soon sort them out!)


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

Sparkle22 said:


> I think you have confused me with the OP!
> My dad was a siamese breeder, but unless I have missed a post, I don't think the OP's dad was.


Oopsiedoo!


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Alaska's mother is very beautiful, no doubt about that.

I still feel that the coat is wrong, however, putting that aside, a bigger concern for me that I was thinking about last night, is Alaska has very obviously thick, rather long hair.

This is not typical for a Siamese.
Although a long coated variant of Siamese (Balinese) does exist, the gene for short coat is dominant to long coat.
Long coated Siamese kittens are rarely thrown because of this, in order to have long hair both parents must either carry the gene for it or one needs to actually be longhair themself.
Any breeding cats that throw longcoats would be removed from a breeding programme by the overwhelming majority of Siamese breeders. 

I find it concerning that both of your kittens are exhibiting the same coat type, I actually wonder, if the father of Alaska or Kiera has been used at stud by other backyard breeders without your knowledge.
If so, it is plausible that your cats are half siblings.

I also wonder, if the parents of Alaska and / or Kiera have produced kittens before.
If so, I wonder if a breeder bought one of those kittens to add to their breeding programme and either Alaska or Kiera was one of the results. 

As you are adamant on breeding them, I would actually suggest DNA testing them first as I find it odd that two kittens from different parents would both have the same coat type so untypical of the breed.


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

Azura said:


> It isn't my dad who was the breeder - that was Sparkle's. And of course we are both entitled to our own opinions. I respect yours. I have worked out an planned this out carefully. I also would not be against spaying and neutering them if this does not work out. I also have no intention of lying to people - I will let them know I cannot prove they are pure breds. I won't be forging papers or something stupid!


How can you have worked this out and planned it carefully, it's totally random. 

How much are you going to sell these moggies for? Are you expecting to make money?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Alaska's mother is definitely not a longhair but she does have a shaggy coat. I am afraid thicker coats do appear even on show Siamese lines and should be penalised but sometimes breeders (and judges) have different priorities. Sometimes in this country, they are attempting to breed cats whose ears grow out of their neck rather than their head.

If Azura is happy breeding pet cats that look like hers, a shaggy coat is not a problem and can look beautiful. The only worthwhile DNA test would be for PRA. There could be any number of anomalies in the kittens but we have to recognise that these things happen in pedigree cats as well. However careful you are you can never be sure that you will not have problems.

(By the way, to breed a longhair cat both parents must pass on a longhair gene to the offspring.)


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

That is a great suggestion - thank-you! I will ask my vet about the DNA testing when they get older. As far as pricing, I don't know for sure yet. I'm sure it will somewhat depend what the expenses end up being and what the majority sell them for - unregistered I mean. I do not want to charge too low as I have found at least with rescues that people are much more willing to care for them when they have to pay.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

QOTN said:


> Alaska's mother is definitely not a longhair but she does have a shaggy coat. I am afraid thicker coats do appear even on show Siamese lines and should be penalised but sometimes breeders (and judges) have different priorities. Sometimes in this country, they are attempting to breed cats whose ears grow out of their neck rather than their head.
> 
> If Azura is happy breeding pet cats that look like hers, a shaggy coat is not a problem and can look beautiful. The only worthwhile DNA test would be for PRA. There could be any number of anomalies in the kittens but we have to recognise that these things happen in pedigree cats as well. However careful you are you can never be sure that you will not have problems.
> 
> (By the way, to breed a longhair cat both parents must pass on a longhair gene to the offspring.)


I am suggesting DNA because although a thicker coat may crop up, I do not believe it to be a regular occurance and do find it concerning that both kittens would express it and both be from unpapered parents. 
A DNA test, if positive would tell you that they are indeed related and therefore you can avoid causing serious problems by inbreeding.
If it's negative, then great!

P.S. I am aware that both cats must pass the gene which is why I said that both must either carry the gene or one must actually express the gene. I didn't make it clear however that the other parent would indeed need to carry otherwise the shorthair gene would just cancel out the longhair gene from the long haired cat.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Azura said:


> That is a great suggestion - thank-you! I will ask my vet about the DNA testing when they get older. As far as pricing, I don't know for sure yet. I'm sure it will somewhat depend what the expenses end up being and what the majority sell them for - unregistered I mean. I do not want to charge too low as I have found at least with rescues that people are much more willing to care for them when they have to pay.


I can assure you now, that if you are hoping for a profit, your unlikely to get one.
It's more of a hobby.

To put it in perspective, if you are doing to this properly, you are going to have to shell out for the DNA PRA test, I would advise a DNA test for parentage as well, veterinary exams for both breeding cats, vaccinations, wormer, flea treatment and early neutering for the kittens, 13 weeks worth of food and cat litter, equipment in case it goes wrong - feeding bottles, heat pads, kitten replacer milk, feeding tubes, syringes and spare cash in case it goes wrong for the queen and she needs a c section.
Bare in mind, that in the UK at least, insurance will not cover anything breeding related so if something goes wrong your on your own.

In the UK a unregistered kitten typically goes for £300 or less.

I would also greatly disagree that people who pay more are likely to be better owners. 
I don't think you can judge a caring owner based on their wages.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

Absolutely I don't judge them just on what they can pay! But I have had people want rescue kittens brought directly to their door, with lots of supplies, spayed, vaccinated, dewormed and FREE! I get that a lot. So sometimes people who pay for kittens are more willing to spend money on their care.

And yes, if I did ever make any money it would go right back into the cats.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Azura said:


> Most people in our area are looking for a beautiful, well raised and socialized, healthy, happy kitten. Their first concern isn't always the papers.


byb's do thrive on people not doing their research on getting a 'pure bred' cat.

Regarding price, you really couldn't charge more than rescues do for their moggies which barely covers the cost of neuter, microchip, vaccination and vet check. 
Though I highly doubt you'll be advertising these kittens as moggies.

There's no need to wait for any DNA testing, UC Davis in the USA is the lab I use for my cats, and kittens can be tested pretty much from birth.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

Well, I disagree on pricing - most people will pay for Siamese kittens, and they don't always or often even want papers. No I won't advertise them as moggies - it is a disparaging term in my opinion for cats that can be just as wonderful if not more so than purebreds. However, I will let people know I don't have proof the parents are pure and will not be forging papers as some do. 

I already have people that would like kittens from the litter when they are born and they are very responsible people.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

But they aren't siamese.
Even if they did look like genuine Siamese, without prove of lineage, they are colourpoint domestic shorthairs. Or Moggies.

It isn't often I agree with SpottyCats but they are spot on, pardon the pun, in in this instance.
If you look at this entirely honestly, taking the fact that you have already paid for the cats and the fact that you have always wanted to breed and have everything planned out away, ask yourself if it really is ethical to breed, and then to charge a higher price for a litter of kittens that you don't have proof are purebred, so whether you like it or not are classed as Moggies, or domestic shorthairs if you dislike that term.

Hundreds, if not thousands are produced like them every year, I would have thought that if you were involved in rescue you would know just how many cats and kittens find themselves homeless, and how many, sadly, are euthanised for lack of homes.

I can't understand why you would want to do this.
You say you want to get into registered breeding, when these cats are mated, word will get round that you producing and selling unregistered cats, you will then find it absolutely impossible to get into registered breeding as no good breeder will touch you, word will get around.

Just because a cat looks like a purebred, it doesn't mean they are.
I think my kitten looks identical to a Tuxedo pattern American Shorthair, would that make it okay to breed her and sell her kittens as 'American shorthairs - no papers'? 
No.
Because I have no proof of her pedigree, she might be American shorthair, but it is far far FAR more likely that she is just your run of the mill, good ol' black and white mixed breed moggy.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Azura said:


> Well, I disagree on pricing - most people will pay for Siamese kittens, and they don't always or often even want papers. No I won't advertise them as moggies - it is a disparaging term in my opinion for cats that can be just as wonderful if not more so than purebreds. However, I will let people know I don't have proof the parents are pure and will not be forging papers as some do.


I don't agree with you breeding these cats. But this takes the biscuit 
You really should not advertise these cats as Siamese. Because they are not.
Yes people will pay good money for a pedigree Siamese kitten. And quite rightly will expect documentary evidence of their pedigree to justify the price paid.
Your kittens look absolutely nothing like a Siamese and I'd be surprised if anyone would fork out in excess of £100 per kitten which would leave you hugely out of pocket. 
Aside from the money it just seems morally wrong to me


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I think that we have all said enough that the OP would have changed her mind had there be any possibility she would. And of course she will advertise the kittens as Siamese. I just don't understand your logic, Azura. I can in a way understand BYB - if you go into breeding for the profit, then of course BYB is the way to go (no health tests, no shows, no registry membership, no vet charges), however horrible it is. But you seem like a reasonable person, you speak about health tests and say how much you love and care for your kittens etc, you want good homes for them, I really am just very confused why not start proper breeding?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

HeartofClass said:


> I think that we have all said enough that the OP would have changed her mind had there be any possibility she would. And of course she will advertise the kittens as Siamese. I just don't understand your logic, Azura. I can in a way understand BYB - if you go into breeding for the profit, then of course BYB is the way to go (no health tests, no shows, no registry membership, no vet charges), however horrible it is. But you seem like a reasonable person, you speak about health tests and say how much you love and care for your kittens etc, you want good homes for them, *I really am just very confused why not start proper breeding?*


That is also my question, WHY not do it properly...? Doesn't make any sense, unless money is the object of the reason, no papers/byb don't do anything with their kittens, they just bred and sell and earn ££. Genuine breeders that do EVERYTHING possible properly, don't even break even, but that's the point, its classed a 'hobby', hobbies cost money, bringing a life into the world is more than just buying 2 cats and putting them together


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

How old are the kittens in these photos?


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

I think the op's kittens are what we call Thai cats in the uk

Meow - Siamese Kittens Michigan


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The GCCF Thai cats are lilac & blue-pointed Korats.


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## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> Zachary Apollo won in 1982:
> 
> http://www.siamese-cat-breeder.co.uk/siamese-cats/siamese-cat-picture-gallery/


Oh wow... was just reading this thread (thinking it may have kitten pics..) and then saw this link.

Never knew our tonks great great granddad Zachery Apollo was a siamese. I mean I knew they had Siamese in there pedigrees - but I'd never been able to track down Zachery Apollo before (and the breed numbers on the pedigree hadn't meant anything to me!)  What a stunner - thank you!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

He was beautiful. Any cats with a 24 or 32 breed number are Siamese.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

MollyMilo said:


> I think the op's kittens are what we call Thai cats in the uk


TICA has the Thai breed....if the cats are registered of course.


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

Yes, that website you linked to is definitely the type of kittens I have. Not the modern type, but the old style which is my personal favorite.  Oh, and they are 10 and 12 weeks respectively.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

The TICA thais are old style siamese so are registered as siamese with GCCF as long as their pedigrees conform to the GCCF Siamese registration policy although the BAC has suggested the possibility of applying for a name change so they can be shown with GCCF. This is not really relevant to the current cats since they are in Canada and do not have pedigrees.

The Old Style Siamese cat club has some fascinating photos on their website. Historic Photograph Archive | Old Style Siamese Club


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

As you can also see on that website that some of the cats have longer hair like my kittens. That does not mean they are not purebred.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Azura said:


> As you can also see on that website that some of the cats have longer hair like my kittens. That does not mean they are not purebred.


On this forum, any cat without a pedigree is a moggie. Changes depending where on the Internet you find yourself.

On the website yes, I see the long hair on the kittens and then when the are adults seems to shorten.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Psygon said:


> Never knew our tonks great great granddad Zachery Apollo was a siamese.


I knew Sup Gr Ch Zachary Apollo very well, and his owner. When I was breeding Orientals I used one of his sons, and one of his grandsons, for stud on my girls. I also used to board my cats with Doreen when I went away, as she wasn't too far from me when I lived in Central London.

Apollo almost lost his life at one point in his stud career. A Blue Point Siamese queen had come in to stud, and attacked him, badly injuring his penis. Vets' opinions were divided - some said PTS, one even suggested amputation, although that had a 50/50 chance of success.

Even before the days of the internet, the news spread like wildfire and one breeder in the USA contacted Doreen, suggesting using Hypercal ointment on it. So, with nothing to lose, Doreen applied the ointment every few hours night & day for several weeks. It healed so fast the vets were worried about adhesions!

So Apollo lived, and even went on to sire a couple more litters to very experienced and gentle girls, although he found it difficult as his todger had healed slightly crookedly. But he always refused Siamese girls, especially Blue Points!


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## Azura (Dec 18, 2014)

MollyMilo said:


> On this forum, any cat without a pedigree is a moggie. Changes depending where on the Internet you find yourself.
> 
> On the website yes, I see the long hair on the kittens and then when the are adults seems to shorten.


Well, I doubt my kittens care what they are called! And it certainly doesn't make them any less wonderful or quality animals. I am very happy with them, and I am looking forward to seeing how they mature as they get older. It is scary how fast they grow - to bad kittens can't stay little for longer!


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2014)

It's not a 'moggy' just because it doesn't have papers and as for 'on this site' it is are you speaking for every single person on here because you are certainly not speaking for me.

Mum to a Bengal with papers!


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2014)

Oh and Azura, I take my hat off to you for being so patient with some of the comments on here.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

I concur with the above. I think you've been very patient and your kittens are beautiful. 

I paid £100 each for my two babies from someone who would be classed a BYB by a lot of these guys. mum's a bengal, dad's a somali. They are the most beautiful, well socialised, affectionate cats and in my head I thank the woman I got them from on a daily basis. She loves her cats and gave me my two, who I love also.

Well done on your rescue work by the way


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Bengalmum said:


> It's not a 'moggy' just because it doesn't have papers and as for 'on this site' it is are you speaking for every single person on here because you are certainly not speaking for me.
> 
> Mum to a Bengal with papers!


No, that came across wrong. I am in the if it looks like a breed it is side of things! It annoys me to distraction when someone posts in here says what breed is my cat and they get told nothing but moggy.

I think the op's kittens,that are gorgeous by the way are siamese!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

A cat with two siamese genes can be called a siamese. If the parents of both these kittens were all pointed cats, they are more 'pure' bred than many registered siamese show cats. ( The waters are muddied slightly by all the colourpoint breeds that have been developed from siamese but they tend to show completely different conformation from old style siamese.) When a recessive gene is expressed as in these kittens, any dominant colour genes in the background of the cat are no longer present. 

Registration policies are fairly arbritary and subject to change (as is the Standard of Points) and people can choose not to register their kittens. Even those which are definitely pedigree are not always registered nowadays.

I think the assumption here is that unregistered cats are bred by back yard breeders. This may or may not be true and it is exactly the same with registered cats. I know of some appalling breeders who always register their kittens.

However, a siamese is only a pedigree cat if it has a pedigree.


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