# Inherited dog, worried about behaviour around toddler



## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Hi folks,

I'm new to this forum and I'm hoping I can get a little bit of advice from some more experienced dog owners. Sorry if this post goes on a bit, and please let me know if there's something else I need to do before I can post this here...

The situation is this:

We've inherited my mum's old dog - a Jack Russel cross calls Daisy. Mum passed away a few years ago and my stepfather has been her (Daisy's) sole provider ever since. He's now having to travel a lot more and wanted Daisy to have a more stable environment and asked if we could take her and at least then she stays in the family. We were happy to, as Daisy has always been a lovely little dog when we've visited.

She's now living with us - there's me, my wife, our 6yo son and 15 month old daughter and all of a sudden she's started behaving aggressively towards our daughter. There was an incident in the first couple of days where our daughter "hit" Daisy on the head (she got excited and flailed her arms) and we moved daughter and gave Daisy a bit of a fuss.

Since then, there's been a couple of incidents where Daisy has growled (and snapped once) at daughter when she's gotten too close - each time, Daisy was on the couch and daughter was on the floor. Then there was a time when they were both on our bed and Daisy growled.

Each time this has happened, we have reinforced the growl and moved daughter away from her, hoping that she would never feel the need to escalate the warning, but today she's been actively seeking out daughter in order to be aggressive, or at least that's how it appears. She's been following daughter around and when daughter turns around to face her, Daisy has gone for her. She's even gone from one end of the room to the other to confront our daughter and we're getting really worried now. This also only seems to happen in the lounge at home. Anywhere else and Daisy doesn't pay our daughter any attention.

Daisy is around seven years old and has always had a good, gentle temperament. Could that one little incident have caused all this aggression? Considering the situation in which Daisy has come to live with us (and the fact we have been thinking of getting a dog for quite some time), we don't want to just give up on it if we can help it but obviously the safety of our daughter has to come first here.

This is a bit beyond our training abilities, so I'm really hoping someone might have some advice to offer, or do we need to be thinking about getting rid of Daisy?

I'm at work at the moment and have had this info about today from my wife at home, so I'll try and post more details and answers to any questions later on from home.

Any advice greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.

J


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

This really isn't the sort of thing that can be advised on over the internet. You need a reputable behaviourist to come in and see exactly what is going on. In the meantime you need to keep daughter and dog separate for their own safety.

Which area are you in? People on here can often recommend a good behaviourist rather than you stumbling across one of the awful ones out there.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks, I had a feeling that might be the case. I'm in Cambridgeshire.

UPDATE: My wife has just called again and it seems the situation has escalated somewhat. While my wife was hoovering, our daughter was following her. Daisy came through, probably to investigate the noise or something and went for our daughter. What Daisy did was the same as when two dogs fight - lots of barking, snarling and body movement. I don't know how else to describe it I'm afraid. Our daughter was knocked over and there was lots of crying, but she wasn't bitten.

We're really concerned about what's going to happen next, so it's looking like we're going to have to return Daisy to my stepfather. As much as we want to keep her and work on this, Daughter's safety is priority and I just don't think we can risk another episode.


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## Mumtomaddog (Sep 17, 2013)

Bumping this up in the hope that someone can recommend a good behaviourist in your area, as Sarah Said.

Definitely keep daughter and dog apart, and hopefully someone can give you a bit more advice in the meantime but you really do need to get someone in to help out and see whats going on.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

Try Cath Schofield at Wuff dog training. She's a very good behaviourist/trainer and based in Cambridge.

Puppy and Dog Training in Cambridge and Colchester


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

No reputable behaviourist (and by that I mean someone with the relevant qualifications which are universally recognised, rather than someone who entitles themselves regardless) will see a dog without a vet referral.

So you need to go to your vet first to rule out any underlying medical conditions.

They should refer you to the relevant professional who will usually belong to one of three bodies

APBC, COAPE, UKRCB

Cambridgeshire | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers

Members - UKRCB


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

Yes - Cath is qualified and a member of COAPE.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Could your dad take the dog back until you can have the dog assessed?


You need to limit where the dog can go in the house so that your daughter remains safe. 

To me it seems quite urgent that they are kept separate.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

OP I think you are right to return Daisy to your Stepdad, you have a young child and an older dog that probably is not used to sharing a home with tots. Alternatively you need to get baby gates to separate them until you can get extra guidance


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

I also agree send the dog back to your stepdad this could be an bad accident waiting to happen and if the dog does really bite your little girl you will always blame yourself.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

jmc160 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> I'm new to this forum and I'm hoping I can get a little bit of advice from some more experienced dog owners. Sorry if this post goes on a bit, and please let me know if there's something else I need to do before I can post this here...
> 
> ...


Often the problem with toddlers is that they are unsteady on their feet, and because of it can be clumsy and can fall on or near dogs startling them, they also do things like get excited, squeal and vocalise suddenly, and their movements can be unpredictable sudden and very clumsy. They can also want to interact with dogs and worry at them. All these things can be unnerving to a dog making them stressed and anxious, especially one that isn't used to a young toddler.

Its quite possible because of this, that she may have started being wary and unsure about your daughter anyway, and the episode with the hitting her on the head likely hasn't helped. If a dog is uncomfortable and anxious then they can be more reactive.

Growling is a way of telling you they are not comfortable with a situation, if pushed they may show teeth, or air snap, not to make contact but they are warnings, and with a toddler thats more unpredictable in what they are going to do and unco-ordinated its often possible for them to get caught by a tooth, even if the dog intended to just air snap.

If the dog is uncomfortable and anxious around your daughter, then if pushed it can escalate even more.

Apart from telling you to take precautions, like ensuring your daughter isn't left unsupervised or when your attention is elsewhere on something you are doing, so you can prevent close contact and keep space between them, and giving the dog her own space, where she can get peace if she needs it and separate them when you are not close by put preventative management in place. The only advice that we can really give and the best one is to get in a Behaviourist, who will assess the dog professionally and the situation, and if they think its do-able give you advice on further management and re-training.
You need to do something quickly, as it is escalating quite rapidly from what you say.

Try CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers you should find behaviourists in your area on there or its its one good organisation anyway. Speak to a few find someone with proven experience and success in these situations.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

jmc160 said:


> Thanks, I had a feeling that might be the case. I'm in Cambridgeshire.
> 
> UPDATE: My wife has just called again and it seems the situation has escalated somewhat. While my wife was hoovering, our daughter was following her. Daisy came through, probably to investigate the noise or something and went for our daughter. What Daisy did was the same as when two dogs fight - lots of barking, snarling and body movement. I don't know how else to describe it I'm afraid. Our daughter was knocked over and there was lots of crying, but she wasn't bitten.
> 
> We're really concerned about what's going to happen next, so it's looking like we're going to have to return Daisy to my stepfather. As much as we want to keep her and work on this, Daughter's safety is priority and I just don't think we can risk another episode.


If its now not just a cause of the dog reacting when your daughter invades her immediate space, or when your daughter approaches her, and the dog is actively seeking your daughter out then it is escalating. In which case I would ensure they are kept apart for safetys sake while you decide what you are going to do ie return her to your stepfather or get a behaviourist in.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks very much everyone for all the responses and for the links on where to go for help on this. I'll check them out as soon as I can (which will be VERY soon).

To those asking if my dad can take her back, unfortunately that's not an option. His residential situation has changed and he's no longer able to keep a dog. I have discussed with him what's going on and he has said that even if that wasn't the case, re-homing would be better as he doesn't want to end up in a situation where he can't see any of his grandkids because of the dog.

I'm waiting for a call back from Wood Green to discuss the ins and outs of rehoming, but they have said that in normal circumstances it can take anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of months for them to be able to take her in. I'm hoping there's something that can be done though due to the nature of the situation, but if I haven't heard from them by the time I leave work then I will be picking up some baby gates etc. on my way home so we can properly separate the two.

We explained to our son what was happening last night, and he was distraught with the idea of Daisy ending up at the shelter for re-homing. It's been very upsetting for all involved as Daisy has been in the family for a long time now and has never acted like this before. She's also never lived full time with a toddler (she was a rescue puppy when my parents got her though) so we really don't understand what could be happening.

Looks like I'll be making some calls and checking some links now. Thanks again for all the advice and replies. It's been a huge help in an upsetting couple of days.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

UPDATE: 

I just got off the phone with the shelter about 30 minutes ago and we have an appointment to take Daisy into the intake centre on the 22nd. That gives us just over a week left with her, so I'm going to put up some baby gates, maybe try and get a dog crate (is this a good idea?), research as much as possible, see if we can get onto a behaviourist and hopefully we'll be able to give this one last attempt.

What's interesting is that when I called my wife to update her on this, she said that Daisy has been completely different today. She hasn't shown any signs of aggression, not so much as a curled lip, and rather than seeking our daughter out like she did yesterday, has been actively avoiding her, As soon as our daughter has gone anywhere even remotely close to her (always under very close supervision from my wife), Daisy has just looked away and walked away from her. Granted my wife has done no housework today and has been exclusively keeping a very close eye on things, but it's a stark contrast from yesterday when it didn't seem to matter whether my wife was watching or not.

I really don't get it :/ It's like she's a different dog. Or am I being naive?


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

You never know, the dog could improve as the toddler gets older, but at 15 months she's got a lot of growing up to do before she gets to an age where she's steady on her feet. Problem is she doesn't have any concept of danger or what an animal is. You could try and keep the dog/child separate and see how it goes - just takes careful management. If you have to do house work, use a play pen for the child so the dog can come and go as she wants but the child is protected. I think a behavourist could help, I wouldn't immediately get rid of the dog yet.
I can understand why she's nervous of the toddler, she's never lived with one apart from the odd visit so she's going to find it strange and stressful.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

jmc160 said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> I just got off the phone with the shelter about 30 minutes ago and we have an appointment to take Daisy into the intake centre on the 22nd. That gives us just over a week left with her, so I'm going to put up some baby gates, maybe try and get a dog crate (is this a good idea?), research as much as possible, see if we can get onto a behaviourist and hopefully we'll be able to give this one last attempt.


Baby gates will likely be a saving grace, you can confine the dog without isolating them completely which shutting them in with a sold door can do.
That way at least they can get used to being about each other and seeing each other, without chance of mishap when you cant watch them. Little hands and feet can be stuck through gates though and so can small muzzles containing teeth, so you will have to watch your daughter still. To make it seem less like a punishment and make a good association with being contained you could give the dog a chew or Kong, but again dogs can resource guard food and high value items, so its vital your kids cant get access or put hands etc through the gate when shes got anything like this.

A crate can be an even better idea, as that way they can be in the same room but again beware of fingers and hands being poked into the crate. If the dog at 7 years old has never been in a crate though, you will have to introduce and train her to the crate to see it and accept it as a place of security and relaxation, you cant just put them in and shut them in, some can really freak out and you will never get them to accept it as a den and place of relaxation.


> What's interesting is that when I called my wife to update her on this, she said that Daisy has been completely different today. She hasn't shown any signs of aggression, not so much as a curled lip, and rather than seeking our daughter out like she did yesterday, has been actively avoiding her, As soon as our daughter has gone anywhere even remotely close to her (always under very close supervision from my wife), Daisy has just looked away and walked away from her. Granted my wife has done no housework today and has been exclusively keeping a very close eye on things, but it's a stark contrast from yesterday when it didn't seem to matter whether my wife was watching or not.
> 
> I really don't get it :/ It's like she's a different dog. Or am I being naive?


No don't think your being nieve, dogs deal with situations and things they don't like or are uncomfortable with in two ways. Either growl, show teeth and airsnap to warn and get what they don't like to back off, or the other way is avoidance and/or using other body language. Threatening behaviour is often making direct eye contact and keeping it You often see one dog doing it to another eyeballing the other, averting eye contact and slowly turning their heads away and walking off and avoiding is another way. It sounds if anything that's she is unnerved and unsure or anxious about your daughter.
Just because she is doing this today though, don't relax your guard, the dog may be trying a lower key approach but if you daughter toddles after her, trys to stroke her or by accident falls or catches her again in an exciteable moment like before, it could cause her to snap. Sometimes even air snaps in warning although not meant to make contact with a clumsy unpredictable not always co-ordinated toddler they can get caught by a tooth.

Just exercise caution and close supervision and management at the moment
and don't set either up for failure. What you can do, if the dog does show calm behaviour around her or just walks off and ignores her, is lots of praise for the dog and even a treat or two. To reinforce the behaviour, if you can get her just to be calm and stay in the same room, lots of praise and a treat for that too.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Forgot to mention if the dog does avert her gaze and walks off, ensure that your toddler doesn't go after her and continues to bug her, let the dog have her space.

Would add that its just as important to teach and in fact train kids how to act and behave around dogs, with a 15 month old its not something you can do as easy as it is with your six year old son though.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Have just thought on another possible solution. How big is the dog I notice you say she is a JRT cross. You can get dog control gates which fit like a baby gate but are just taller and more robust, but what you can also get is dog control gates with cat flaps in them. If the dog is small enough to get through, then that may be a solution, especially as today she seems to be wanting to be averting eye contact, ignoring and walking away from your daughter when she doesn't want any contact or her own space.

If she is small enough and you could train her to use one, then she could go through and take herself off elsewhere and your daughter cant follow her. Its still no substitute for supervision when together, in fact no dog however patient should be left with an unpredictable toddler anyway, but it may offer a solution and work with the dogs instincts if she wants to avoid and get away.

The gates are really meant for cat and dog households where they need space and so the cat can get away and the dog cant chase, but it could work. Some people with dogs small enough use cat flaps for access to the garden so it may work. I think that you may be able to get ones with just a space in the bottom for the cat to go through too.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Personally, though it may be unpopular, I would rehome this dog.

She has already shown real aggression towards your daughter, even actually seeking her out.
For me, the dog would be rehomed at the first sign of aggression, your children must come first.

While your saying daisy is now avoiding your daughter, if she is actively avoiding her she is not comfortable in her presence. 
I don't think its fair on the dog to keep her in an environment where she is anxious and constantly trying to get away from a child that makes her feel uncomfortable.

I personally think the situation is an accident waiting to happen and if it did you would never forgive yourself.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Sparkle22 said:


> Personally, though it may be unpopular, I would rehome this dog.
> 
> She has already shown real aggression towards your daughter, even actually seeking her out.
> For me, the dog would be rehomed at the first sign of aggression, your children must come first.
> ...


I'm inclined to agree. Dog would probably prefer to be in a household where there are no full time young children.

When my mum died her westie went to live with my cousin whose daughter was 10, rather than me as my son was approaching 2. The dog was extremely happy there and I didn't have to stress with the constant worry of "where's the dog?", son accidentally hurting the dog when playing, etc.

Westie had never shown aggression, but liked a quiet life as she was getting on.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks very much folks, I really appreciate all feedback on this.

I bought some baby gates on the way home and they're now installed, so regardless of the decision we have that safety net for the next 7 days until the appointment comes around.

I have absolutely no intention of putting either of my kids at any kind of risk, and I do agree with the last two posters. But I keep thinking we've only had her a month, and a small part of me feels like we're just giving up at the first sign of trouble (albeit a honking big sign). I know it's a little irrational given the circumstances.

All I'm thinking now is we've got her for the next 7 days, so we may as well take that time to seek out some professional help and do some more research. If nothing else comes of it, we'll at least have learned something.

I should just point out that I'm committed at this stage to keeping that appointment and giving her up, I'm probably guilting myself into holding on to that little slither of hope that it'll all work out. If I don't at least look into what I've said above, then I'll feel even worse about it once she's gone.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

jmc160 said:


> Thanks very much folks, I really appreciate all feedback on this.
> 
> I bought some baby gates on the way home and they're now installed, so regardless of the decision we have that safety net for the next 7 days until the appointment comes around.
> 
> ...


I get your guilt - it's a horrible decision to have to make. But, don't forget that she isn't actually your dog and you are trying to sort out a problem on someone else's behalf. You have tried - sometimes it doesn't work out.

You obviously want to put your kids first - absolutely the right thing to do IMO. And, as I say, the dog will probably be happier once they have settled.

Don't beat yourself up


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

jmc160 said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> I just got off the phone with the shelter about 30 minutes ago and we have an appointment to take Daisy into the intake centre on the 22nd. That gives us just over a week left with her, so I'm going to put up some baby gates, maybe try and get a dog crate (is this a good idea?), research as much as possible, see if we can get onto a behaviourist and hopefully we'll be able to give this one last attempt.
> 
> ...


You are in an unenviable position. On the one hand, your young daughter's safety outranks all other considerations. On the other hand....well, little Daisy already lost one owner and now her new home is in peril.

For what it's worth - from what you described I can't help feeling that if Daisy really WANTED to bite, she would have done so by now. Dogs are lighteningly fast and precise with their jaws - if she meant to bite her, she could have.

So to me, it sounds like she is chastising your daughter like an adult dog would reprimand a puppy when it gets annoying. Which isn't desirable , nor acceptable but NOT aggressive.What Daisy doesn't know yet - and how could she, since she didn't grow up with children - your daughter, regardless of how young, uncoordinated and small she is, outranks her. By miles. In terms of importance within the family.

If you - and more importantly, your wife - are willing and commited to give it a little longer, installing dog gates really are a must. For one, it ensures the safety of your child when temporarily unsupervised. But, just as importantly, it reinforces the message that children have a different position to Daisy in this household. Every time you lead or carry your child through the gate and tell Daisy to stay on the other side will impart that message.

The other option is to get a soft muzzle for Daisy and see how you get on with that.

Obviously, all depends on whether your wife is prepared to give it a go. If she says "look, I feel for the dog, but I simply can't deal with the constant worry and risk" you have to respect that. And hopefully find a suitable home without young children. Although I fear that Daisy is pretty doomed if she gets rehomed with the label "aggressive with children". Who would take on a dog like that? Too much liability.

As I said, a really unenviable position to be in. For all parties. Hope you find a great solution for everyone.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> For what it's worth - from what you described I can't help feeling that if Daisy really WANTED to bite, she would have done so by now. Dogs are lighteningly fast and precise with their jaws - if she meant to bite her, she could have.
> 
> So to me, it sounds like she is chastising your daughter like an adult dog would reprimand a puppy when it gets annoying. Which isn't desirable , nor acceptable but NOT aggressive.What Daisy doesn't know yet - and how could she, since she didn't grow up with children - your daughter, regardless of how young, uncoordinated and small she is, outranks her. By miles. In terms of importance within the family.


This is a good point, I agree.


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## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

'So to me, it sounds like she is chastising your daughter like an adult dog would reprimand a puppy when it gets annoying. Which isn't desirable , nor acceptable but NOT aggressive.What Daisy doesn't know yet - and how could she, since she didn't grow up with children - your daughter, regardless of how young, uncoordinated and small she is, outranks her. By miles. In terms of importance within the family.'

I don't agree at all.
The op said that daisy growled when the child approached her. 
Then, she followed the daughter and got aggressive when the child turned around. 

That does not sound to me like reprimanding an irritating minor. 
If daisy had been lying down and the child had laid on top of her or tried to take a toy away or poked her or something I might be inclined to agree but I have never heard of a dog following a puppy around with the sole intention of confronting or attacking it. 

I think, that it sounds more like bullying, or that she is scared of her or territorial aggression given that it only happens in the lounge.

Either way, I do not believe this dog is comfortable around nor safe with young children and feel she would be much happier and more secure in a calm child free home.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Got to agree with sparkle we cant see her of course and the situations, and can only go by the OPs posts, but I would say the most likely cause is that the dog is stressed nervous and anxious, has never lived with a toddler and a toddler and the way they act move and vocalise and be unpredictable about it, can be unnerving to a dog.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Hi folks,

Well, I just got off the phone with a local behaviourist (thanks for the links) and I'm fairly confident I understand the situation better now.

Based on the information I sent her in an email (basically everything I've told you here), Daisy is stressed and scared. Our options are to give her up and let her have a quiet life, or to try and make her more comfortable here and work with a behaviourist to associate our daughter with good things rather than bad as she is currently. She said that nothing Daisy has done so far is a sign of aggression as such, but is simply trying to get this thing she's scared of to go away.

Daisy has seemed to be much more comfortable today with the gates separating her from our daughter with the exception of a low growl at one point when our daughter got close to the gate.

Wife just got back from the shops so I'm going to relay the info to her and we'll make our final decision to giver her up or try the behaviourist.

Thanks everyone for the feedback, it's been very helpful to hear all your opinions. Please keep them coming if there's anything else you feel you need to say on this


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Hi can i just say that you and your wife deserve so much praise for what you are both doing for this dog, a very BIG HUG sent to you both , so many people would have "got rid of this dog so quickly , i really applaud you both, whatever the outcome is you have both tried so hard to sort everything out , i so wish more people were like you both xxxx


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

jmc160 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Well, I just got off the phone with a local behaviourist (thanks for the links) and I'm fairly confident I understand the situation better now.
> 
> ...


At least now you have another professional opinion, which should help with making an informed decision whatever way you decide to go.

As you still have best part of a week anyway as the exisiting appointment is the earliest the re-homing centre can see you, the only suggestion I can make maybe if you are still unsure which way to go, is if the behaviourist can see you and the dog in situ and make an actual proper assessment then maybe thats the best option.
If she sees her and the interaction and has a proper face to face conversation with you after the evaluation then at least you will know whatever that assessment is and what she/he advises will deffinately be the best thing to do without doubt.
That way too if it does come down to it that re-homing is the best and safest option you will know too that you did everything possible and its the right one.
Never an easy option if it does have to come to that, but at least you will know you did all you could.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

balwen said:


> This reply is probably too late - but for the future - should you ever get another dog--YOU DO NOT ALLOW IT ON THE SOFA - YOU HAVE ELEVATED ITS POSITION - DOGS BELONG ON THE FLOOR- ALSO YOU DO NOT REMOVE THE CHILD - YOU REMOVE THE DOG- AGAIN YOU GAVE THE DOG STATUS IT DIDNT DESERVE- BY REMOVING THE CHILD YOU TOLD YOUR DOG THAT THE CHILD WAS A LOWER MEMBER OF THE GROUP.


I would respectfully disagree. The points you have made appear based on dominance theory which has been pretty much debunked by modern dog training and behaviourist theory. Dogs are not setting out to take over the world, or your house. Some may step in if they perceive a lack of leadership in their environment, and try to establish rules that work for them. But this is different from trying to dominate and have the highest "status". I know many households who allow their dogs on sofas, or to sit on their laps, but the difference is they have trained them to happily then get down when asked.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

balwen said:


> This reply is probably too late - but for the future - should you ever get another dog--YOU DO NOT ALLOW IT ON THE SOFA - YOU HAVE ELEVATED ITS POSITION - DOGS BELONG ON THE FLOOR- ALSO YOU DO NOT REMOVE THE CHILD - YOU REMOVE THE DOG- AGAIN YOU GAVE THE DOG STATUS IT DIDNT DESERVE- BY REMOVING THE CHILD YOU TOLD YOUR DOG THAT THE CHILD WAS A LOWER MEMBER OF THE GROUP.


Hi,

first of all I want to thank you for taking the time to reply, but with the greatest of respect, please turn off your caps lock. I respond best to calm and coherent discussion 

Second, my concern with what you suggest is that I don't want to create a situation where Daisy feels like she's being punished for growling. That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen and the last thing I want is for her to feel like she is unable to give out a warning when she is not happy with the situation. Removing our daughter when Daisy growls follows the lines of everything I've researched on this matter. Not once did I see any suggestion to remove the dog instead.

Daisy doesn't seem to be showing any signs of being territorial, and is quite happy with others sitting on the couch, even our daughter (which doesn't happen at the moment unless I'm sat between them). She's also absolutely fine if our daughter is sat on my lap.

I'm just taking a break from building a den for Daisy as I want to see how she is once she has somewhere she can hide away if she needs to, so I'd better get back to it now. Hoping to have it finished before the end of the day..


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Yes, Balwen, the caps lock in the message suggests an online version of shouting which is not necessary, not that I agreed with much of what you said anyway.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Well for over 20 years my dogs that i have had have sat on the sofa, all have been well adjusted dogs, i love sitting on the sofa with my dogs , i have even been known to sit in my chair with a Lurcher on my lap,,,:biggrin5::biggrin5::biggrin5::biggrin5:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

hazel pritchard said:


> Well for over 20 years my dogs that i have had have sat on the sofa, all have been well adjusted dogs, i love sitting on the sofa with my dogs , i have even been known to sit in my chair with a Lurcher on my lap,,,:biggrin5::biggrin5::biggrin5::biggrin5:


Same here they sit on sofas, eat before we do, and heavens forbid even have the odd cuddle on the bed, and haven't managed world domination yet


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

flippin disgraceful. lettin kids on sofas.....


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> flippin disgraceful. lettin kids on sofas.....


Awwwww! Fab photo!


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Oh no i broke the rules ,,,:biggrin5:


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> flippin disgraceful. lettin kids on sofas.....


Absolutely - and you should keep them wellapart - that kiddie might give the dog worms! :tongue:


----------



## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Oh no! 


And now she's taking the piss here


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

hazel pritchard said:


> Oh no i broke the rules ,,,:biggrin5:


Tut, tut - you are beyond redemption . . .


----------



## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

We are having to buy a bigger sofa so me, OH and Daisy can all fit on it at the same time! What does that say about the hierarchy in our house!!!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Fluffster said:


> We are having to buy a bigger sofa so me, OH and Daisy can all fit on it at the same time! What does that say about the hierarchy in our house!!!


We did and Im still squashed up one end some of the time with this lot hogging most of it.


----------



## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I guess all these pictures will show the OP that dogs on sofas are ok , but with a young child in the house and a dog that has some issues its always best to watch what is going on very closely,


----------



## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

hazel pritchard said:


> I guess all these pictures will show the OP that dogs on sofas are ok , but with a young child in the house and a dog that has some issues its always best to watch what is going on very closely,


Indeed, and we're not taking any chances. Daisy seems to have been a lot more relaxed with the separation created by the gates. She also seems to be OK if I'm supervising. Last night (under VERY close supervision), I let Daisy in the lounge while our daughter was there and she didn't even react. They happily walked past each other in the hallway and Daisy didn't even seem to acknowledge our daughter's existence. there was a little bit of lip curling when Daisy was on the couch and our daughter approached at a run.

Hopefully I'll have the den finished tonight and we'll see how she takes to it.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jmc160 said:


> We've inherited my mum's JRT-x, Daisy. Mum passed away a few years ago & my stepfather has been Daisy's
> sole carer, ever since. He [now travels more & wants] Daisy to have a more stable environment - he asked
> if we could take her, so she stays in the family. We were happy to, as Daisy has always been a lovely little dog
> when we've visited.
> ...





jmc160 said:


> ... I'm in Cambridgeshire.
> 
> UPDATE: ...
> While my wife was hoovering, our daughter [followed] her. Daisy came in, probly to investigate the noise or something,
> ...





Mumtomaddog said:


> ... Definitely keep daughter & dog apart... hopefully someone can give you a bit more advice in the meantime
> but you really do need to get someone in to help out and see what's going on.





Picklelily said:


> ...
> You need to *limit where the dog can go in the house* so that your daughter remains safe.
> ...


this is the first & most-obvious need:
*children & dogs are never loose together, & giving the dog free roam of the household is too much.*

The dog's never lived with a child, let alone an emotional, wobbly, loud, demanding, unpredictable toddler.
It's going to take time to get accustomed, & more time for the child to grow-up & become empathic to a dog's
feelings. Kids poke, tease, chase, intrude, take things, scream when frustrated, & lack manners - toddlers 
are worse than older kids, & have no empathy for other's feelings - privacy, ownership, pain of others,
are all alien concepts.


DoodlesRule said:


> IMO you're right to *return Daisy* to your Stepdad, you've a young child & an older dog that probably
> is not used to sharing a home with tots. Alternatively... get baby gates to separate them until you can get
> extra guidance.





Bobbie said:


> ...*send the dog back* to your stepdad...





Sled dog hotel said:


> ...toddlers... are unsteady on their feet, &... can be clumsy... fall on or near dogs, startling them, they also
> do things like get excited, squeal & vocalise suddenly, & their movements can be unpredictable, sudden &
> very clumsy. They... also want to interact with dogs & [follow or harass] them [relentlessly]. All these things
> can be unnerving... & make [dogs] stressed & anxious, especially one who's unused to a young toddler.
> ...





Sled dog hotel said:


> If... the dog... is actively seeking your daughter out, then it's escalating. ...I'd ensure they're kept apart
> for safety's sake while you decide what [U'll] do - i.e, return her to your stepfather or get a behaviourist in.





jmc160 said:


> ...
> 
> To those [who'd send] her back, unfortunately that's not an option. Dad's residential situation has changed
> & he [cannot] keep a dog. I've discussed... what's going on, & he said even if [he could have a dog],
> ...





jmc160 said:


> ... we have an appt [at] the intake centre on the 22nd... just over a week... I'll put up some baby gates, maybe try
> & get a dog crate (is this a good idea?), research... see if we can get onto a behaviourist & hopefully we'll be able
> to give this one last attempt.
> 
> ...





Sled dog hotel said:


> Baby gates will likely be a saving grace, you can confine the dog without isolating them completely, which
> shutting them in with a sold door can do.
> ...they... get used to being about... & seeing each other, without chance of mishap when you can't watch them.
> Little hands & feet can be stuck thru gates, though, & so can small muzzles containing teeth, so you'll
> ...


Click! :thumbup:


Sled dog hotel said:


> ...if the dog does avert her gaze & walks off, ensure your toddler doesn't go after her & continue to bug her,
> let the dog have her space.
> 
> ...it's just as important to teach... kids how to act & behave around dogs, [but] with a 15-MO it's not... as easy
> as it is with your 6-YO son, though.





Sled dog hotel said:


> How big is the dog... you say she's a JRT cross.
> ...dog control gates... fit like a baby gate but are taller & more robust... you can also get dog control gates
> with cat flaps in them. If the dog is small enough [to fit a cat-flap], that may be a solution... ignoring & walking
> away from your daughter when she doesn't want any contact or [to get
> ...





Sparkle22 said:


> Personally... I'd rehome this dog.
> 
> She's... shown real aggro toward your daughter... actually seeking her out.
> For me, the dog would be rehomed
> ...


"Re-homing at the first sign of aggro" could mean re-homing a dog who is in physical pain, among other
possible reasonable causes; also there are such things as justified bites, & kids who tease or hurt
a dog, even unintentionally, ignorantly, or accidentally, may trigger bites that the child can't explain.

that's why adult supervision as a WITNESS is so critical. If the kid does something rude or hurtful,
the adult can intervene - hopefully before the dog's patience snaps.


Lurcherlad said:


> ...[this] dog would probably prefer to be in a household [with] no full time young children.
> 
> When my mum died her Westie went to... my cousin [&] 10-YO daughter, vs me, as my son was approaching 2-YO.
> The dog was extremely happy there & I didn't... stress [over] the constant worry of "where's the dog?",
> ...


Every dog who's never lived with kids gives them the hairy eyeball, IME - until they learn that kids
can be fun, as well as noisy, clumsy, startling, reactive, etc.

Perhaps we should ban anyone with children under the age of reason, having dogs?... :huh:
I doubt that would go over well! :devil:


jmc160 said:


> I bought some baby gates on the way home & they're now installed... we have that safety net for the next
> 7 days until the appt...
> 
> I have absolutely no intention of putting either of my kids at any kind of risk, ...but I keep thinking we've only
> ...


it's not irrational at all - 
& i'd look at the APDT-uk website, & speak to a Cambridge area trainer who works with adult dogs.
The cost for a trainer is likely to be significantly less than a behaviorist, & doesn't need a vet-Rx.


Lurcherlad said:


> ...it's a horrible decision to have to make. But... *she's not actually your dog* & you're [sorting] a problem
> on someone else's behalf. You've tried - sometimes it doesn't work out.
> 
> You obviously want to put your kids first... the right thing to do IMO. And... the dog will probably be happier
> once [she's] settled.


Excuse me - she IS their dog; they agreed to adopt her, & she's lived with them for about a month.

The aggro only began a few days ago - it's a recent issue, not something that began day-1, or even week-1.

Also IMO they haven't "tried" - the dog wasn't given space to grow accustomed to the children,
but dumped into shared space & expected to cope, immediately. That's a bit unrealistic. Any trainer would
have recommended dog-gates or baby-gates for both species' comfort & safety, before the dog even
arrived.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> ...OTOH, your young daughter's safety outranks all other considerations.
> OTOH, Daisy's already lost one owner, & now her new home is in peril.
> 
> FWIW... *if Daisy really WANTED to bite, she'd have done so... Dogs are lightning-fast & precise with their jaws -
> ...


I agree that if Daisy really intended to bite, the person would have been bitten. Dogs are fast,
accurate, & extremely-aware of their teeth and bite-pressure.

I strongly disagree that any of this has diddly to do with "hierarchy"; dogs don't have fixed ranks vis-a-vis
other dogs or humans, & there's no pair-bond to found a pack in domestic dogs. Any pack is an extended family,
which begins with a monogamous breeding pair - conspicuously missing in dog behavior. Dogs are sluts - 
they breed with any available partner. Male-dogs have zero attachment to any possible progeny;
they lose interest in the bitch as soon as she stops allowing males to mount.

Despite CM/DW's repeated statements that children as young as babes in arms can become "pack leaders",
it's pure manure; human adults own all the resources, & as dominance is about ACCESS to & CONTROL of
resources, we don't as humans need to do anything to 'become' dominant; we hold all the cards.

Children of any age should never be told to 'dominate' a dog; the risk of serious injury with bites is very
significant, & adults would do well to model polite handling & good Mgmt so that kids don't imitate such actions
as nonchalantly *taking the dog's bowl away as s/he is eating!...*  which the kid might do, 
if they've seen Mom or Dad do it. :nonod:

Also, a "soft muzzle" AKA groomer's tube is actually a dangerous tool; it CLOSES the dog's mouth,
which means s/he cannot pant effectively & can dangerously over-heat. Dogs' body-temp is adjusted
via their ability to evaporate water from their tongues, primarily, & somewhat from their throat - 
*limiting the airway* in any way is potentially dangerous to the dog, & adds physical stress to any
emotional stressors - which is obviously not helpful, in fact it's counter-productive.

Soft / fabric / groomers' muzzles / tube muzzles / mesh muzzles also leave the INCISORS uncovered;
the dog can bite with those front teeth, they just can't use the full depth of the mouth & all 42 teeth.

If the trainer who's consulted thinks a muzzle might be a good safety precaution, it would be a BOX
muzzle - not a tube, not elastic mesh, nothing that impedes the flow of air or prevents the dog drinking
from a plunge-bucket, immersing the whole box-muzzle to drink "inside" it.

Box muzzles can be vinyl-coated wire with a leather sling to suspend it over the nose [my favorite],
bendable sturdy plastic, or rigid leather - DON't buy leather muzzles that are merely perforated! Holes punched into
a solid-leather cone do NOT provide a sufficient airway for any dog, even under cool temps. Leather straps can
very rarely be made sufficiently rigid to be effective muzzles for long - they get saggy & collapse.


jmc160 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> ...Just [spoke to] a local behaviourist... & I'm fairly confident I understand the situation better now.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't give up yet, & i would contact an APDT-uk trainer local to U. :thumbup:


Sled dog hotel said:


> ...you still have best part of a week... the existing appt is the earliest the re-homing centre can see you,
> the only suggestion I'd make [is] if you're still unsure... [can a] behaviourist [or trainer] see you
> & the dog in situ & make an actual proper assessment -- that may be the best option.
> 
> ...


CLICK! :thumbup:


jmc160 said:


> ...I don't want to create a situation where Daisy feels she's being punished for growling. That sounds like
> a disaster... the last thing I want is for Daisy to feel she's unable to [warn] when she's unhappy with the situation.
> Removing our daughter when Daisy growls follows the lines of everything I've researched... Not once
> did I see any suggestion to remove the dog, instead.
> ...


Yay! :yesnod:


hazel pritchard said:


> ...for over 20 years, my dogs ...have sat on the sofa, all have been well adjusted dogs, i love sitting on the sofa
> with my dogs , i've been known to sit in my chair with a Lurcher on my lap. :biggrin5: :biggrin5: :biggrin5: :biggrin5:


Yup. :thumbsup:


Sled dog hotel said:


> Same here -- [my dogs] sit on sofas, eat before we do, & heaven forbid even have the odd cuddle on the bed,
> & they haven't managed world domination, yet.


:yesnod: My experience, too, plus that of family, friends, fellow trainers, clients, etc.
.
.


----------



## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

Leashedforlife, sure, a dog COULD bite out of pain.
But daisy didn't!!!!!

She showed aggression because she isn't comfortable around kids, you say if she wanted to bite she would have.
How many dogs bite straightaway?
She keeps giving warnings and acting aggressively and following the child around because she is uncomfortable and anxious and eventually, in my opinion, will probably snap at this child for real.
What then?
I would bet that daisy would end up being put down. 

I can't believe that some people here seem to be prioritizing a dog over a child's safety 

I feel it is very irresponsible to keep a dog that clearly doesn't like children.
It is very unsafe for the child and unfair on the child as they won't enjoy the same bond that other children do. Instead of having a friend to grow up with they have a creature they have to stay away from because if they don't it acts aggressively towards them.

I also feel its irresponsible to keep a dog that clearly doesn't like children because the dog is being forced to live in an environment that makes it scared and anxious and forces it to act aggressively when it probably doesn't want to.
How can that ever be in the best interests of the dog?!?!?! 

Daisy, IMO, needs a calm, quiet, child free home, I for one hope the op does rehome her.
She would be a LOT happier.


----------



## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Despite CM/DW's repeated statements that children as young as babes in arms can become "pack leaders",
> it's pure manure; human adults own all the resources, & as dominance is about ACCESS to & CONTROL of
> resources, we don't as humans need to do anything to 'become' dominant; we hold all the cards.
> 
> .


Sorry, I'm gonna be thick now - who are CM and DW?


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

jmc160 said:


> Sorry, I'm gonna be thick now - who are CM and DW?


Cesar Millan aka the Dog whisperer.


----------



## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Cesar Millan aka the Dog whisperer.


Ah, right. Yeah, I watched a couple of episodes of that show over the weekend. It made me very uncomfortable. So I turned it off again.


----------



## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Sorry, a little off-topic but while I'm thinking about it, I've just had the forms through from the behaviourist (hoping to get her out on Friday) and there's a bit on there about breed.

Now, we know she's a JRT cross, but we have absolutely no idea what she's crossed with! I've attached a picture of her below. Anyone have any opinions on this? Recognise any other breeds in there?


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

jmc160 said:


> Sorry, a little off-topic but while I'm thinking about it, I've just had the forms through from the behaviourist (hoping to get her out on Friday) and there's a bit on there about breed.
> 
> Now, we know she's a JRT cross, but we have absolutely no idea what she's crossed with! I've attached a picture of her below. Anyone have any opinions on this? Recognise any other breeds in there?


To be honest there is nothing that jumps out particularly at all apart from JRT. I wouldn't worry to much, just put JRT cross on the form that should be fine.


----------



## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> To be honest there is nothing that jumps out particularly at all apart from JRT. I wouldn't worry to much, just put JRT cross on the form that should be fine.


Had a feeling that would be the case, I'm really interested to find out though. It's gonna bug me...


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

jmc160 said:


> Had a feeling that would be the case, I'm really interested to find out though. It's gonna bug me...


Possibly someone else might have some other ideas. Some crosses you can can get a possible idea and there is something in the crosses that stand out and shout at you but with her I personally cant see anything specific.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jmc160 said:


> ...we know she's a JRT cross, but we've absolutely no idea what she's crossed with!


if U want educated guesses, we need a side-on photo taken At The Level of The Dog - not looking up or down
at her, but seen from approx the level of her shoulder-blade.

Her head should be in profile, her tail in a fairly characteristic position [not under her belly, not vertical...],
her legs in a neutral self-stacking pose that's comfortable, not exaggerated.

Other than her wiry, broken coat [which isn't JRT standard-issue], given the minimal info from the pose
[belly-down in long grass, in 3/4 profile from a 30-degree downlooking angle?...] i can't *see* anything. 

Standing on a table, bench, etc, with a solid surface behind the dog [not lots of visual clutter] is best. :yesnod:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sparkle22 said:


> I can't believe that some ppl... seem to be prioritizing a dog over a child's safety.


Excuse me? -- How? :blink:

If the CHILD & the DOG aren't in the same space when they're not directly supervised,
how would i be carelessly risking this child's safety?

Baby-gates or dog-gates are a very safe tool for giving both dog & child separate spaces.

Would U prefer that we simply declare this dog is an obvious & irredeemable danger to children, hopeless,
& permanently ban her from all contact, even after any B-Mod? That seems both excessive & premature;
she's lived *loose* in the house for a month, & the problem only arose in the past 3 days [the 15th
to the 18th] --- now that the gates are installed, there's considerably less hazard to both dog & kid.

Labeling a dog as "unsafe around children" literally makes her / him unadoptable in many shelters;
they won't risk the potential liability, so it's a death-sentence. Should we just euthanize her immediately? 
Why not - let's just kill her, it's certainly the simplest & fastest answer. Once she's dead, there's no risk - 
Right? :thumbdown:

Personally, my vote is to give her a chance, DO some B-Mod, supervise all the time when the dog
is in the same space as the child, LEASH the dog whenever the child is liable to run [in the garden,
when excited, during play, etc], & otherwise predict & manage possibly dangerous situations before
they occur.

an *airline-approved shipping crate* is also a good option. A dog who's crated behind a gate
is entirely out of the reach of small hands, & can also be out of sight from prying eyes.

a wire "show crate" is IME a useless & even counter-productive item; the shallow trays which crack 
or rust & bend & splatter, the too-open visual exposure of wire walls & roof, being pinned down in the open 
[which is very stressful] compared to the sense of privacy & security afforded by a solid roof overhead, 
mostly-solid walls, & ONE door open to the gaze of others, provided by a shipping-kennel.

A shipping-crate is perfect for the dog's meals, child-safe naps, a place to gnaw a bone or eat a pig's ear
without worrying about who might come by... it's the gold standard for transporting a pet; it's a perfect
home-away-from-home when U reach the hotel / friend's or relative's home / vacation cabin, etc.


----------



## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Excuse me? -- How? :blink:
> 
> If the CHILD & the DOG aren't in the same space when they're not directly supervised,
> how would i be carelessly risking this child's safety?
> ...


Just the fact that so many are talking about training, gates etc.
I don't understand it.
We are all familiar with the horror stories where children have been severely injured, killed even by dogs.
Including little dogs, it's not a 'big dog' or 'bull breed' problem.

I love animals, but a child always comes first and I just can't understand why anyone would even contemplate keeping an animal that has behaved in this way.

It's bad for all parties IMO.

My point, aside from the safety issue, is that it isn't fair on this dog to keep her in an environment she doesn't like, sure you can keep her behind a gate and get a behaviourist in but realistically, she is never going to be trustworthy around children is she? 
Is she ever REALLY going to like or even feel comfortable around them?
Do the op and his family really want to be watching this dog 24/7, putting her behind a gate all the time or having on a lead whenever their daughter is about because that is what they are going to have to do.

I don't think it's very fair on their daughter either, when I see my son playing with our dog, them snuggling up together, him training her etc it's lovely.
I think it's so sad that this little girl won't be able to have any kind of real bond with this animal.

Re homing her isn't, I don't think, a death sentence. 
There is a rescue near me that has dogs labelled as unsuitable for children; they are still alive!
Plenty of rescues have dogs that can't be homed with kids. 
She isn't savage or attacked anyone, she just doesn't feel comfortable around children.
I don't see why it's such a big issue, I don't see why she wouldn't get rehomed personally.

But at the end of the day, it's up to the op what he decides is best.
Whenever you have a dog that is aggressive towards children, my opinion will always be rehome to them because I think the child comes first. Not everyone will share that opinion, wish the op all the best anyway.


----------



## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> if U want educated guesses, we need a side-on photo taken At The Level of The Dog - not looking up or down
> at her, but seen from approx the level of her shoulder-blade.
> 
> Her head should be in profile, her tail in a fairly characteristic position [not under her belly, not vertical...],
> ...


Hmmm, based on how she is normally when we ask her to stay still, that might be easier said than done 

I'll give it a go at some point and start a new thread for that one, maybe offer a prize or something 

Thanks anyway!


----------



## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks folks,

Based on how she has been behaving since we put the gates up (to us she seems a lot more relaxed), we've made a decision to cancel the intake appointment at Wood Green **FOR NOW** and we've made an appointment to have the behaviourist I spoke to come in and assess the situation fully.

Let me make it clear - I have absolutely no intention of keeping Daisy if there is any risk to either of my kids (or anyone else), or if we're reading it wrong and Daisy is still not happy. We'll make the decision once and for all once we've seen the behaviourist and she's given us her opinion on Daisy's behaviour and what, if anything, could be done about it. The main reason we're still doing this is that she is a special dog to us, the kids love her and we just want to exhaust all avenues for our own peace of mind, so it doesn't feel like we're giving up at the first hurdle. If everything works out well, then that's a huge bonus. If not, then we can (reluctantly) give her up knowing that we've tried everything.

One of the concerns we had was that dealing with the gates and managing the separation would be stressful for us and Daisy wouldn't be happy with it. But we've found that it's actually made things less stressful for everyone - Daisy included, hopefully. We'll get a professional opinion on that on Friday.

We've registered with the local vet and Daisy has had a health check today, and received the all-clear from the vet, so we now have the referral that the behaviourist needs.

I've finished the first phase of Daisy's den - the walls are up and she seems quite happy to go in and settle. She has hidden a squeaky toy and a rawhide thingy in there and rearranged the bedding a bit too. I'll give her a day or two to get used to it, then I'll make the roof and get that on and see how that goes.


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Glad that things seem a lot more settled and it also sounds like she will take to her own little Den where she can have peace and quite and her own space.
So far at least all seems to be moving in a positive direction and as you say seems to be making a much more stress free environment for everyone.

Hoping the behaviourist will agree too and there is a way forward. Whatever happens at least no one can say you haven't tried and done all you can to make it work. Keep us updated.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sparkle22 said:


> ...
> I think it's so sad that this little girl *won't be able to have* any kind of real bond with this animal.
> ...


Huh?

Apparently, for U all behavior is cast in concrete, unchanging & forever. 

*Behavior modification* is the process of changing behavior by changing the underlying emotions - 
in this case, from anxiety & fear, to happy confidence that "kids predict Good Things", & "The Grown-Ups
will keep me safe".

Dogs who are worried by the noise, sudden movement, & unpredictable behavior of children
need time to grow accustomed, & happy associations with the presence of children. Believe it or not,
dogs don't *automatically* "love" kids, especially shrieking, crying, throw-things, fall-down toddlers. :blush2:

Once the dog's opinion of kids as 'scary' is changed, there's no reason Daisy & the little girl won't become
good, lifelong friends.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jmc160 said:


> ...based on how she is... when we ask her to stay still, that might be easier said than done


Piffle - it's simple. :yesnod:

Park her on a picnic table, in front of a privacy fence or a wall.
Use a *lure* to get her side-on to the camera.

A turkey-baster with the end packed with half-&-half Neufchatel cheese and peanut-butter, well-mixed,
is a simple, *lickable* treat to keep her looking straight ahead.

Take the bulb off, warm the crm-Chz / P.B. blend in the microwave, load it into the open end with
a long-handled iced-tea spoon, pushing it down as far as U can reach.

Put the bulb back on, squeeze lightly to extrude the goody. Offer to the dog. COVER THE TIP
with a sandwich-baggie, & wrap a rubber-band aorund it so that it won't slip off.

When U have finished with the photos, squeeze out as much of the goop as possible; take off the bulb
when U run out of air, put it back on, squeeze some more out... finally, soak the baster [bulb off]
in warm water with liquid dish-soap, & scrub the majority out with a bottle-brush. Rinse well with
hot water, dry, put the CLEAN bulb back on. [The bulb never gets goop in it! :thumbsup: ]

Let us know when U get a good shot? :wink5:


----------



## Sparkle22 (Oct 26, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Huh?
> 
> Apparently, for U all behavior is cast in concrete, unchanging & forever.
> 
> ...


Well, yeah. For me it is really.
People's personalities and deep seated fears and insecurities rarely truly change, the saying leopards don't change their spots comes to mind.
I personally think it's the same with animals.

I do understand what behaviour modification is thank you, I just feel it's too risky when a dog has showed aggression and fear towards a child before to keep it with children.

Like if my dog was dog aggressive, if a behaviourist worked with her and she then seemed fine I personally still would not take the risk. She would always be muzzled and on lead. Is that extreme? Maybe, but I don't like to take any risks, that's just me.

Let's hope your right, obviously it would be nice if they could be friends. 
I am always willing to be proved wrong.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sparkle22 said:


> ...For me, [behavior *is* cast in concrete], really.
> People's personalities & deep-seated fears and insecurities rarely truly change; the saying that,
> "leopards don't change their spots", comes to mind. I personally think it's the same with animals.
> 
> ...


That ppl rarely change behavior may or may not be true; as one example, men who are unfaithful rarely
become monogamous, but that's because our Western-Euro society admires infidelity in men, by & large.
It's criticized publicly in moral tones, but smiled at in private conversations.
However, dogs - luckily - aren't humans; moreover, many ppl DO successfully change behavior,
including what seem to be quintessential personality traits.

I was profiled as a 'loner' in high-school, a hangover from my arrival in 2nd grade from a city-school
in a rural, country elementary-school. My 8th-grade classmates "told" everyone who & what i was;
that i lived a half-hour drive away from the school & couldn't participate in after-school activities, only 
underlined my presumed "snooty" persona - both my parents worked, i had to use the bus to get home,
& that meant no after-school participation.
Thankfully, college meant a chance to be myself, since none of my former classmates were there to paint
my portrait or put me in a box; i had a completely different experience, since activities were accessible,
i had no pre-existing pattern imposed on me, & i could finally become myself.

Extremely-shy ppl aren't likely to become "life of the party" folks, but they can become more social,
less anxious, & enjoy meeting new ppl or engaging in new activities; they're not doomed to a dry, tiny,
narrow, self-involved life of timidity & embarrassment. Nor do extreme-extroverts HAVE TO BE loud,
intrusive, bossy, rude, oblivious of others' wishes, & so on - they can learn tact.

Luckily, dogs' behavior IME & that of many fellow-trainers, is very plastic; dogs are much-more flexible
than ppl, an event that would have a human in therapy or on psych-meds for years on end, can become
a distant memory for most dogs, with a few weeks to a few months of decent B-Mod, even by the owner.

IOW, a well-intentioned, truly committed owner can do their own B-Mod with a badly-damaged dog, & get 
excellent results, if they use a good DIY-manual [such as _'Click to Calm'_ or _'Control UnLeashed'_], plus some 
on-line support or phone-support or e-mail help, for any sticky bits they encounter.

Several dog-owners who adopted dogs that already-had or later developed serious dog- or human-aggro,
did their own B-Mod when i lived in VA, using one to 3 meetings with me, some e-mail or phone support,
AND _'Click to Calm'_. Some i only met twice - for an initial eval, & later by design or chance, after their dogs 
had markedly improved -- often i met them post-B-Mod on the bike-path, to observe their dogs' reactions 
to passersby, human & canine. They - and their dogs - did brilliantly.

Those dog-owners simply couldn't afford 6 to 8-weeks of weekly or bi-weekly appts; the budget just
wasn't able to stretch that far. But they DID have *time*, & they DID have a strong *committment*
to their adopted dogs - & they worked thru it, with wonderful results.

That doesn't mean i'd turn their dogs loose in a dog-park with random dogs; but i don't recommend that
for the majority of adult-dogs, particularly of specific types [herding, guarding, LGBs, terrierrrists].
But those dogs were well-behaved, polite, easily directed, & certainly no longer aggressive or reactive - 
which U could not have said about them, before. They came a long way. :thumbup:
.
.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Hi folks,

So, the behaviourist came out to see us earlier this afternoon and it was a very interesting conversation. She's given us lots of information about why Daisy is behaving certain ways, and where we have been going wrong in our own behaviour that could have contributed to the situation.

Obviously she can't make the final decision for us, but she's given us some exercises to work on and see how it goes for the next 3-4 days, and after that we will make our decision. She has assured us that we should see what we need to see in that time to make our decision.

She made no bones about the fact that Daisy is not an aggressive dog, but she is wary of our daughter and feels threatened by her. What follows may or may not help to improve the situation, and is an extremely cut down version of what was said..

She mentioned that Daisy is seeing the couch as high value and is essentially guarding it, so we need to apply that value to her den instead and positively train her not to go on the couch from now on, which we're working on.

She also said the den is perfect as it is and we should probably not bother with a roof at this stage - the walls are high enough that Daisy should feel safe in it and we should reinforce this as her safe haven using treats and chewy things.

I went out and bought her a couple of filled bones and a knuckle bone today, which hopefully we can use to increase the value of her den but so far she's only really been in there to retrieve it and take it somewhere else. So far she's favouring under the dining room table (which is in one end of our lounge). I'm going to have to try and find a way to get her to keep such items in her den. Not sure how I'm going to do that at this stage...

She's also given us lots of information on what we can do to make daily activities and walks more fulfilling for Daisy.

So the next few days are going to be mostly filled with clicks and treats while we give this a go. Our decision will come at some point near the end of next week once we've seen how this goes.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Sparkle22 said:


> Well, yeah. For me it is really.
> People's personalities and deep seated fears and insecurities rarely truly change, the saying leopards don't change their spots comes to mind.
> I personally think it's the same with animals.
> 
> ...


Surely just owning a dog is a risk - ANY dog. It has teeth and is an animal, making it unpredictable should it feel the need. No matter how good a dog is its still able act out of character and surprise us, sometimes even a medical condition unknown to us like hypothyroidism could prompt a reaction we have not seen in our dog before. Everytime I remove my dogs food bowl while he's eating to add something I forgot is a risk, just because he's always accepted it in the past he's an animal and can't think rationally but its a risk I have often taken with no effects, doesn't mean to say one day he won't like me doing it though.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Glad that the Behaviourist seemed to help, and has give you some training to do, everything crossed that it works out for you and Daisy. The fact that you had already seem some improvements prior to the behaviourist coming is something. Please keep us updated whoe its going.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Surely just owning a dog is a risk - ANY dog. [S/he] has teeth and is an animal...


Yup. I tell clients frequently, *"Any animal with a mouth, can bite."* 
Teeth aren't mandatory.

Ppl can be bitten very-badly by turtles & birds [beaks], lizards [short peg-teeth], horses [flat teeth, powerful 
jaws], snakes [thin pointy teeth hooked toward the throat], & even fish - who may have peg or pointy teeth, 
or even beaks.

Scaring the h*** out of an animal can result in justified bites; so can painful handling, which is sometimes
necessary - a vet or vet-tech DOES need to examine limbs for fractures, to figure out what body-parts need
to be X-rayed. No matter how tolerant or friendly any animal is, injuries, being startled, presence of food
or other triggers [infant offspring, anyone?... ] can cause bites, which are often justified: we deserve them.

Many ppl have the utterly wrong-headed fixation that THEIR dog should never, ever bite.
I have news for them - that's like expecting a human being to go thru an entire lifetime, & never, 
ever swear, exclaim a bad-word when in severe pain, or rant when stuck in traffic. It's unreasonable.
It's ludicrous. Animals, just like ppl, have feelings, get frustrated, angry, scared, cranky, or sick.
And when they ARE - they don't "act like themselves". Irritability can trigger bites.
.
.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> Yup. I tell clients frequently, *"Any animal with a mouth, can bite."*
> Teeth aren't mandatory.
> 
> Ppl can be bitten very-badly by turtles & birds [beaks], lizards [short peg-teeth], horses [flat teeth, powerful
> ...


When Kobi was a pup and young adolescent he had terrible stress/anxiety/fear issues and was afraid of just about anything outside, even blowing plastic bags and wind in the trees, and would panic try to break free and as he couldn't on lead would re-direct and jump up and nip causing bruises and even catch skin and cause the odd bleeding scratch if I wasn't quick enough. Took a good while using desensitisation and behaviour modification but it worked and he stopped doing it.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

You sound like a kind caring man who has every ones best interests at heart and will do whatever needs to be done.

I wish you well.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jmc160 said:


> She made no bones about the fact that Daisy is not an aggressive dog, but she is wary of our daughter
> & feels threatened by her. What follows may or may not help to improve the situation, and is an extremely
> cut-down version of what was said.
> 
> ...


I'd teach her 'up' & 'off' re the couch - 
& i'd reward both behaviors, using a lure to get her up, deliver it when she gets up there, & lure again
to get her onto the floor, again delivering the goody as soon as her feet touch the floor.
A sweeping arm-signal can become "off", & patting the sofa [or chair, hassock, bed, steps, ...]
can become "up".

Now, once she's fluent, she can be readily CUED off the furniture, & INVITED to get up. When she hops up
without being invited, don't fuss - just ask her "off", & reward. A toy flung to chase is another good pay-off - 
it doesn't always have to be food, but food is always the best first-choice / early teaching tool, because it's
easy to deliver very quickly, tiny pieces that go down without chewing, & it's reliably "happy" associations.

As for making her den a wonderful place with long-lasting, high-value items, she needs a DOOR - 
toss the goody in, when she enters, CLOSE the door & leave her to it. :yesnod: When she exits,
offer a small treat to get her to drop the item, she comes out to get it, CLOSE the door behind her,
& wait till she leaves the room to remove her busywork-item; freeze filled-bones in between uses,
so the filling stays fresh, & bacteria don't breed explosively. Microwave the frozen item on 30% power
for 2-minutes, to thaw it for use - use a paper-towel under it to catch any dirty water, WIPE the turntable 
[the glass plate lining the microwave] with a sanitizing wipe, OR wash it briefly with dish-detergent 
& warm water, before using it for human-food.

[No-one should put food *directly* on the turntable, just in case of bacteria, but some folks will, 
no matter how often they are warned it's a bad idea - the *bottoms* of plates, bowls, etc, are rarely 'clean', 
they sit in sinks & on counters & shelves, tabletops, etc, that aren't "clean enuf to eat from", 
& then they carry the microbes with them.]
.
.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks!

The clicker training officially started tonight (the behaviourist recommended we read a particular book before starting and I just finished it today), and so far it's looking good!

Daisy seems to be taking to it, so far she's figured out that if she sits, she gets a click and a treat. Next I'll try and get her to lie down and might try a bit of box play, then we'll move onto the couch/den stuff. I imagine we'll get at least two more sessions in tonight then my wife will do some during the day while I'm at work throughout the week, and I'll carry on in the evenings.

I'll work on a door for the den as soon as I can, probably have to wait til the weekend though. We have added a couple more blankets and some cushions off the couch in the hopes of making it a bit more comfortable/familiar. It certainly seems to be helping.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

It's so refreshing to read this thread. 

No hysteria, no anger, no negative reactions to suggestions offered. You are so obviously trying your hardest and whatever you decide in the end I really admire you and your family for this. 

Clicker training is brilliant - it will occupy her mind and give her something positive to focus on as well as being an excellent training tool. Teddy loves our clicker training sessions - he gets all excited when he sees me with the treat bag clipped on and clicker in hand! 

I wish you well and look forward to updates!


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

HOLY C**P THIS IS FUN!!

I'm starting to wish I'd have known about clicker training when I was a kid (last time I had a dog).

Two rather short sessions tonight, no longer than 5-6 minutes each, and she's already figured out sitting and lying down gets a click! I think I'm gonna have to try another couple of sessions tonight and see what else we can do  Or maybe I'll just reinforce what we've already done. 

I may be getting a little over excited...


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

jmc160 said:


> HOLY C**P THIS IS FUN!!
> 
> I'm starting to wish I'd have known about clicker training when I was a kid (last time I had a dog).
> 
> ...


Oh well done, if your enjoying it all the better as it will transfer to her too, 
more importantly she seems to be enjoying it too and catching on really quickly.


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

I have no advice to add, you already have an abundance of excellent advice.
But I just wanted to add how refreshing it was to read this thread!! You are doing all you can for this little dog that has been thrown into uncertain territory, and doing your best to help her realise it's not all that scary. This could so easily of been one of those "free to good home" adverts, but you weren't willing to give up so easily...bravo! I don't believe Daisy is beyond redemption or that she is a child hating dog, I think she is anxious and a little stressed at the sudden appearance of a wobbly, noisy, clumsy human. But that's understandable, we sometimes forget that dogs don't come prepared to accept all things and that a lot of things need to be taught to them....and that is exactly what you seem to be willing to do. Of course if there was a continued danger to your kids they should always come first, and nothing but strictly supervised contact should be allowed, but the baby gates help massively with that? As will her safe place, if she feels she has somewhere to go to be safe, she will feel less need to chase or scare away the thing that is scaring her......I'm rambling now  ha ha just well done you...daisy is a lucky girl and I have fingers and paws crossed for you at my mad house


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jmc160 said:


> HOLY C**P, THIS IS FUN!!
> I... wish I'd known about clicker training when I was a kid (last time I had a dog).


for a FREE week-long series of beginner lessons in Clicker-training, sign up at Canis Clicker Academy - 
Clicker training

All it requires is a first name, & a valid e-address. They don't spam, nor sell / share / trade their addresses;
U won't be bombarded with sales offers & ads, it's ONE lesson each day, via a link sent by e-mail.

Even for experienced clicker-trainers, this course is a terrific brush-up for skills. They teach terrific
basic skills that are helpful to anyone, even with years of practice, to improve timing, eye / hand 
co-ordination, & splitting goal behaviors into manageable steps that make the dog successful.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks! I've signed up for the email and I'll have a look at the first lesson when I get home 

We've slowed things down a bit at home, Daisy got the idea of click = treat really quickly and not too long after was sitting on command. Down on command has taken a little bit longer so I've gone back a few steps to try and boost her confidence on it and she's starting to get it now. I think next we'll be doing up and off the couch, and we'll follow that with reinforcing "come" which she tends to do when she wants to at the minute (she always comes back, but not always straight away when we ask her to).

I tried her on "101 things to do with a box" from the book last night and she seemed a little unsure of herself, so there's still a way to go, but we're seeing improvements so we're sticking with it 

I've also signed up to Big Walkies which was recommended by the behaviourist and our son is really excited about it. We'll go along to that first chance we get.

My job for today now payday has been, is to look at some alternative toys for Daisy. She's quickly losing interest in her ball (even on walks), so I'll see what else there is on the way home from work today and pick up some options.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Hi folks,

It's been a while since I posted here, so probably time for an update...

In a nutshell, we've made the decision to keep Daisy, at least for now. 

We've spent the last couple of weeks reading books on clicker training (Clicker Training by Karen Pryor and Click to Calm by Emma Parsons) and we've spent s lot of time working on training Daisy. It's going really well so far, and we've reached a point now where we have started training her off the couch and also working on encouraging her into her den. These two particular ones are taking a little more time than any of the others we've done so far, but she's showing a lot of progress so we're sticking with it.

Daisy has really taken to the clicker training, and already we seem to be moving in the right direction with her behaviour. This has been the major contributing factor to our decision to keep her. Rehoming isn't 100% off the table yet, we've got a long way to go before that happens, and the extra gates will be staying in place for the foreseeable future, but things are looking up so far. The progress that we've made with Daisy in such a short time has given us the confidence that the right decision, at least for now, is to stick with it.

We've already informed the behaviourist of our decision and she's going to get a report to us, and to our vet, as soon as she's able. She's also asked us to check in with her every couple of weeks to see how things are going, and to keep a diary of the training and anything that happens between Daisy and our daughter that shows Daisy is feeling threatened. Her fee includes 6 months phone and email support which I thing is going to be very helpful.

I'd just like to say thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread with advice, opinions or just general feedback. It's always a big help for me to see the opinions from both sides, and all of you have been a big help to my wife and I in making this decision. I'll definitely be making use of these forums going forwards, and hopefully at some point I can reciprocate and offer advice or opinions of my own. I'll work out a way to keep posted our progress if anyone is interested in hearing it.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Great news that things seem to be moving in the right direction, and hoping that with continued training and the ongoing support of the behaviourist you will solve the problem completely and be able to keep her.

Well done for putting all the training and effort in too and working so hard, so many dogs are not as lucky as Daisy and are rehomed without a second thought, so its a refreshing to hear a positive story for a change.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jmc160 said:


> ... I'll work out a way to keep [the forum] posted on our progress, if anyone is interested in hearing it.


yes, please! :thumbup1:

As U're already using a marker, why re-invent the wheel? Join *Levels-training* & use Sue's on-line log - 
Training Level ONE

OR the original: Training Levels (originals)

It's free, & fabulous - there's a Yahoo! group, too - 
Yahoo Groups

here's the on-line TRACKER - 
Training Levels Tracker - Welcome to Training Levels Tracker!

How is "Canis Clicker Academy"'s free home-study course?


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Hi, first off you have a gorgeous little dog there. I cant pretend that I know what you should do - and my story is a bit different, but it might be interesting for you.

Bertie came to us 18 months ago as a rescue. He had been a stray so we knew nothing about his history but Blue Cross assessed him with our teenage kids and were happy for us to bring him home. It soon became apparent that Bertie has a tendency to be very scared in certain situations - and can then become aggressive.

We had some really horrible moments early on (he bit my friends teenage son) - and I even rang Blue Cross to ask them to take him back. Without going into all the details we decided to keep him and we learned to manage it. We now know what situations might trigger aggression (he is terrified of anyone crying for example). With training we have improved things massively but he will never be 100% reliable in certain situations.

He is never let loose with any kids except our own. He stays on lead when visitors are around, or he is crated, or he goes to visit my parents. Our kids are old enough to know that if they cry or scream in front of Bertie he might get scared and react. We have 2 dog-gates which are absolutely essential for us. He has never actually tried to bite anyone after that first week that we brought him home but I know he has a lower threshold for aggression than some other dogs. This is not perfect but we all love the dog and he has the best life anyone could give him. As the kids get older things get easier.

I know this is a world away from your situation because my kids are 13 and 15. But if you decide to re-home people do take on aggressive dogs and make it work. Similarly if you make the decision to keep Daisy its amazing how well you can manage it once you really get to know the dog. I can read Bertie so well now and take him out of potentially difficult situations long before it becomes a problem.

People say to me "oh but what if you have grand-kids and still have the dog" etc etc, well we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

Like I say I dont have the answers but I do wish you all the best of luck.


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## freckles (May 8, 2008)

Lovely to read that someone is doing something to give the dog a chance, 

good luck :thumbup1: and I hope it all works out for you all


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Fluffster said:


> We are having to buy a bigger sofa so me, OH and Daisy can all fit on it at the same time! What does that say about the hierarchy in our house!!!


That it is JUST RIGHT!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Janey D said:


> Hi, first off you have a gorgeous little dog there. I cant pretend that I know what you should do - and my story is a bit different, but it might be interesting for you.
> 
> Bertie came to us 18 months ago as a rescue. He had been a stray so we knew nothing about his history but Blue Cross assessed him with our teenage kids and were happy for us to bring him home. It soon became apparent that Bertie has a tendency to be very scared in certain situations - and can then become aggressive.
> 
> ...


Poor boy - looks like he has been in an abusive home, where children and animals (and maybe wife) has been beaten, and he associates crying with violence and pain.

I'm so pleased that you were prepared to work so hard with him. As you say - cross your bridges when you come to them - who knows - a baby's cry might bring out the protective instinct in him, rather than an aggressive one. Or you may have to pop him out when your future grandchildren come round. I'm sure you'll find a good solution anyway.


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## ackerleynelson (Feb 14, 2013)

According to me, you should send the dog back to your stepdad. It would be better for you both.....!!


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

ackerleynelson said:


> According to me, you should send the dog back to your stepdad. It would be better for you both.....!!


OK. I'll bite. Why?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

staffgirl said:


> OK. I'll bite. Why?


Look at the signature link, should think the biggest agenda is that tbh. Boosting business.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Look at the signature link, should think the biggest agenda is that tbh. Boosting business.


Ah. I see. Not sure I'll be flying over to New York to get my dogs groomed!


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> yes, please! :thumbup1:
> 
> As U're already using a marker, why re-invent the wheel? Join *Levels-training* & use Sue's on-line log -
> Training Level ONE
> ...


Thanks for the links!  I'll be having a look at those soon. I've had a play with the tracker and I don't think it's quite going to work for our needs, so I've set up a OneNote notebook and shared it with the wife and we're going to try that as a journal for a while. We've both got Surface tablets and Windows Phones, and our PCs are Windows so we can access and update this pretty much anywhere and it's a familiar interface.

We haven't had much time to look at the Canis training yet, I have the lessons set aside and I'll be looking at them as soon as I can, but for now we're concentrating on training Daisy off the couch, and getting her used to going into her den when she needs to. These are proving a little more difficult than the previous things we've done, but she's getting there slowly but surely.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jmc160 said:


> We haven't had much time to look at the Canis training yet, I have the lessons set aside & I'll [look] at them
> as soon as I can, but for now we're concentrating on training Daisy off the couch, and getting her used to
> going into her den when she needs to.


Suggestion:
*print each lesson as hard-copy - * so that U don't lose access before U get to do them! 

don't skip any, either; practicing eye / hand co-ordination seems boring, but it's important.
Clicking accurately is a mechanical skill, before it's a training-skill.


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## sazzle (Sep 10, 2011)

Although I can appreciate it must have been very stressful at times for you all. I just wanted to say what a lovely post this has been to read through. 

Daisy is very cute and you should be so proud for helping her out and giving it a go.:thumbup1:

I hope with all my heart that things improve constantly and that it all comes out in the wash as they say. 

Totally agree with Janey D too, you do learn to read your dog. Mine isnt without issues but I can read him early enough to prevent any reactions 99% of the time. 

Fingers crossed for you all here.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Happy new year, folks!! Time for an update,. methinks...

Unfortunately, we're not as far ahead as we'd like to be at this stage. There have been unforeseen circumstances we've had to deal with (one of these being without hot water or central heating from Christmas eve until earlier today, so that's been a fun one to manage!) but we have made _some_ progress at least:

Outside training is gong (mostly) well. Daisy will happily walk on a loose lead most of the time, although she makes a lot of noise in certain places. My wife thinks she maybe is remembering seeing a cat or something there on a previous day or something. We've taught her to come when called and she's picked it up easily. As long as there isn't something to chase, that is. We have some large country parks locally and she loves to run off into the undergrowth and hedges chasing after God only knows what. When this happens, no amount of recalling does any good. She does come back eventually, ears and forehead covered in blood and rather excitable, but obviously we still have some work to do. (I should point out that the blood is her own - she has never actually caught her "prey", she tends to barrel through large thickets and thorny hedges and tends to cut her ears and head a bit. It doesn't seem to bother her.

We bought her a new bed in the Amazon Boxing Day lightning deals thing, a really furry soft one, which she loves. She'll now choose this over the couch with very little encouragement. In fact she's sleeping in it as I type this! I'm going to get another one for the bedroom so I can have my share of the mattress back 

I've looked at some other threads in this forum, in particular the sticky on body language, and it's been a huge help. My wife and I now have a much better understanding of what we need to look for, and are confident we can start re-associating our daughter positively.
We've started doing this in the last couple of days, letting Daisy into the lounge (but keeping her off the couch) while our daughter is playing in there. I click and treat Daisy while she's calm and relaxed, especially when Erin gets closer or walks past her, and take her outside to play in the garden for a few minutes if she starts to get uncomfortable or stressed. All this is done under strict supervision and only when both my wife and I are there.

One thing I'm having a little trouble with though, is she shows no interest on any of her toys anymore. When out for a walk, I'll throw the stick for her and she'll turn her head to see where it went, then just turn back and give me a "down" and wait there for a treat. I'm starting to worry she's not getting enough exercise because she's not running. Anyone experienced this before?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Sounds like you've come along way with her , very satisfying isn't it ? You know what you've got to work on, so that's all good. 

I'm no expert, so can't really advise . 
We rescued a 9 y.o dachshund in January last year, our first dog, she's come on amazingly but has a definite streak of Daxie wilfulness !


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

SusieRainbow said:


> Sounds like you've come along way with her , very satisfying isn't it ? You know what you've got to work on, so that's all good.


Yup, it's extremely rewarding when you find something that works  The new bed has made such a difference that we've just ordered another two - one identical to this one for the bedroom and one of the same material and feel but slightly bigger and a different shape to go in his den under the stairs.

It's amazing how much even a little knowledge can change things. I've got a lot more research to do, but the information I have now compared to the day we received Daisy has made a huge difference :thumbup:


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

jmc160 said:


> Unfortunately, we're not as far ahead as we'd like to be at this stage.


you are kidding, right? It sounds like you've come a really long way in being able to understand and effectively manage her behaviour positively so that she's much less stressed and your daughter is at much less risk as you can see when Daisy needs a time out to relax so she's not getting to the stage where she used to feel that she had to lash out.

Well done, it must have taken a lot of hard work and research on your part to get as far as you have in a relatively sort space of time. :thumbup:


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

speug said:


> you are kidding, right? It sounds like you've come a really long way in being able to understand and effectively manage her behaviour positively so that she's much less stressed and your daughter is at much less risk as you can see when Daisy needs a time out to relax so she's not getting to the stage where she used to feel that she had to lash out.
> 
> Well done, it must have taken a lot of hard work and research on your part to get as far as you have in a relatively sort space of time. :thumbup:


Don't get me wrong, I'm extremely pleased with the progress so far and it's great that we're getting somewhere now, I should probably have worded that better  What I meant was due to the other things we've had to deal with, we haven't been able to start the indoor conditioning where our daughter is concerned as soon as we'd have liked to. But o the other hand, I'm glad to have had the extra research time. It's been invaluable for getting to where we are now


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## sazzle (Sep 10, 2011)

So happy to hear you have made some progress.

Keep up the good work.:thumbup:

Please keep posting with updates, its a great story.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

sazzle said:


> So happy to hear you have made some progress.
> 
> Keep up the good work.:thumbup:
> 
> Please keep posting with updates, its a great story.


Ditto! So pleased to hear things are still going well!  xx


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Hi folks,

Well, it's high time for another update, and sadly it's not good news this time.

Things have escalated over the past couple of weeks. Daisy has been growling again and yesterday was the worst of it. My wife was getting some housework done and had Daisy and our daughter separated. Every time our daughter came to a point where Daisy could see her (not even getting close, just in view), Daisy would growl, snarl, bare her teeth, all the things we really didn't want to see. Daisy even managed to wrestle her way through the gate and came rushing into where my wife and daughter were. Nothing happened and Daisy wasn't showing aggression at that point, but it was worrying nonetheless. My wife managed to stop Daisy, hold her in place for a moment and then picked our daughter up and took her away from the situation.

This seems to be a recurring thing now. It's not usually the level of aggression we saw that time, but the fact Daisy is now consistently growling at the mere sight of our daughter is a big worry. It's also gotten to a point where as long as our daughter is awake and in the house, Daisy is constantly very alert and will not settle. Even if the two of them are on completely different floors and separated by multiple gates. And if she sees our daughter, the growling starts.

We've been following the advice of the behaviourist and have been consistent with the clicker training, and we thought we were making progress in all the right places. We even bought some special treats for our daughter to give to Daisy to start re-associating her.

Daisy is now spending more and more time shut out of whichever room the rest of the family is in. She's not getting the level of interaction or socialisation she deserves and is used to. We've decided it's just not fair to keep her in this situation, where she's only able to spend time with us on walks or when the kids are in bed at night, and the last thing we want is for our daughter to get hurt and as a result, for Daisy to be left with no chance of a better life.

So, it's with heavy hearts that we've decided the best option now is re-homing. I'll be calling Wood Green tomorrow morning to make the arrangements. Hopefully they'll be able to find her a home without young children where she can have the run of the place and finally relax and live happily.

I probably won't be around on this forum much after this, as I don't think we'll be getting another dog, at least until our daughter is a few years older. We're all very upset about the situation, and about the decision we've had to make, and I don't think any of us will want to take the chance of going through it again any time soon. Plus for me it would feel too much like trying to replace Daisy and I don't want to do that. She was my mum's dog and as such she's very special to us. It's heart breaking to have to do this now.

I'd like to take this opportunity to tell everyone on here how grateful I am for all of your advice, support and opinions. It's been a big help while we've been trying to figure out how best to deal with the situation and your posts gave us the resources and the confidence to try keeping Daisy and learn how to train her so we could hopefully manage this situation and get through it. It's very sad that it hasn't worked out as we'd hoped, but we couldn't have gotten as far as we had without the help of this thread. You're all awesome and I thank you.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

No-one could have done more, you're perfectly right not to risk your daughter's safety and I'm sure your mum would agree. 
Thinking about you all.


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## sazzle (Sep 10, 2011)

What an awful shame that things didnt work out for you all. 

You have done all you could to make this work. A big hand to you for giving it a go. You have probably made Daisy a far better dog too with all the training that you have put in. I truly wish you and your family all the best and I hope Daisy finds her perfect family and leads a happy life too.


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## Dogpsycho (Aug 18, 2013)

I would recommend you have a look at David Ryan's excellent book "Dogs that Bite & Fight" in order to (a) see what was going on and (b) avoid the same in the future.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

I'd just like to echo what some others have already said in that you have tried very hard to make the best out of and work with a difficult situation that you inherited. I really respect you for all that you have done. And of course you have to make decisions about what's best and safe for your family. Wishing you all the very best and an appropriate new home for Daisy.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the words of encouragement.

The rehoming centre called me back today and arrangements have been made. We have an appointment where we will sign her over to them and they'll start the processes they need to go through.

It's really hit me today, I've been an absolute wreck. Especially after talking to my son about it and explaining that Daisy will need to go away. He's distraught, understandably.

I hate the idea of Daisy being stuck in kennels until such time that someone might claim her. And when they do, will give her the care and attention that she deserves?

The behaviourist we've been working with has suggested that we try to rehome her privately as spending time in kennels is going to be detrimental to Daisy. I've started with a post in the rehoming section of this site and I'm trying to think of where else I can get the word out.

If anyone here might be interested, or knows someone who might take her, I'd love to hear from you


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jmc160 said:


> ...
> 
> The rehoming centre called me back today & *arrangements have been made.
> We have an appt... we'll sign her over to them & they'll start the process...*
> ...


Seriously?...

- U have a dog with major aggression issues.

- U have a *rehoming center* willing to take her in, possibly? / probably? do B-Mod,
& find her a new home.

- Most rehoming centers require the adopter to BRING THE DOG BACK if they cannot keep
the dog for whatever reason - death in the family, bankruptcy, problem behaviors, whatever.
That's LIFE INSURANCE FOR DOGS.

_Meanwhile... U want us to agree that YOU will be more successful at finding 
a new home for this dog, with whom U can't live any longer, & U can surely 
find someone who will not only cope better, but will keep her for her lifetime.

U want us to believe that only YOU can choose an adopter who's responsible, kind, & can be
relied upon to keep this dog for life, care for her well, & manage her for everyone's safety.

Did i sum that up accurately? :blink: Did i miss anything?

WHAT IF the adopters don't "want her" in another 6-mos, a year, 3-years, whatever?
Then what?

WHY is being in a kennel the kiss of death?
For that matter, why not place her via a rescue that FOSTERS dogs in home situations?

*allow me to state categorically & for the record that i think re-homing her 
YOURSELVES is a disastrous idea - U have no CONTRACT that's legally binding, 
U lack the RESOURCES of a registered rescue or shelter, U can't INVESTIGATE 
prospective adopters as they can, & U can't GUARANTEE U'll be there in the 
future, if things go pear-shaped.

Please, please, please don't do this; 
give her to the re-homing center, & let them do what they do best: 
find her a home, & offer a refuge for life, if she needs it later.*_


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

Well, that escalated quickly! I'n not sure where to start with this, but I'll give it a go...



> - U have a dog with major aggression issues.


 I don't think this is the case. She's not aggressive, she just can't cope livng with small children. That may manifest itself as "aggression", but from what we've been told this isn't the case. I can only go by what we've learned from the behaviourist on this matter, as I kind of have to assume that she knows more than me on these matters.



> - U have a rehoming center willing to take her in, possibly? / probably? do B-Mod,
> & find her a new home.


Yes, that's correct. The appointment is in three week's time and hopefully they'll be able to take her in at that time.



> - Most rehoming centers require the adopter to BRING THE DOG BACK if they cannot keep
> the dog for whatever reason - death in the family, bankruptcy, problem behaviors, whatever.


 I wasn't aware rehoming centres had such policies. It's not something that's been advertised to me previously and I didn't think to ask. I've spoken to the rehoming centre again this morning to see if this is something they do, and *it's not a requirement*, but the adopters do "*have the option*". This doesn't sound any different to us "*having the option*" to take her there in the first place.



> Meanwhile... U want us to agree that YOU will be more successful at finding
> a new home for this dog, with whom U can't live any longer, & U can surely
> find someone who will not only cope better, but will keep her for her lifetime.


 I don't "want you to agree" to anything. Certain people on this thread asked me to keep them updated so that's what I'm doing. My updating this thread and generally posting on this forum has been very useful throughout this time and usually, when I post an update, people (including you on many occasions) have replied with invaluable resources, advice and information. Even now, I find that my previous post, although it's made you somewhat... passionate on the subject, has once again given me some new, important information that I need to consider. The internet a wonderful thing, isn't it? 

I don't think I'd be more successful at rehoming Daisy than the rehoming centre, but the option was suggested to me by a professional that we hired when we started having these issues and, again, as someone who I believe has more knowledge than me on these subjects, I'll certainly look into it. Although when you put it in the context that you have, it doesn't sound like such a good idea after all.



> U want us to believe that only YOU can choose an adopter who's responsible, kind, & can be
> relied upon to keep this dog for life, care for her well, & manage her for everyone's safety.


 This is entirely untrue and a little harsh if I may say so. I don't consider myself to be the be-all and end-all where Daisy is concerned. If I thought that only I would know and could do what's best for Daisy, then I wouldn't be giving her up in the first place. I'm just exploring options. It's what I do when I'm faced with a difficult decision.



> Did i sum that up accurately?


No, I don't think you did. Although you have brought up some very good points that I hadn't thought about properly.



> WHAT IF the adopters don't "want her" in another 6-mos, a year, 3-years, whatever?
> Then what?


 Surely this could happen in any situation? Whether she's rehomed privately or via a centre?



> WHY is being in a kennel the kiss of death?


 I don't really know. It was something the behaviourist said in her last email to me. These were the words she used: _"and if you can avoid Daisy having to be kennelled it would be better."_

Daisy is a social dog and I'll admit I don't like the idea of her spending the vast majority of her days locked in a kennel surrounded by other dogs (in other kennels) that she doesn't know and may not take too well to. Even at our house when she's merely the other side of a gate from us, she doesn't seem very happy. If this is what I have to do, then it's what I'll do, but I make no apologies for feeling bad about it.



> allow me to state categorically & for the record that i think re-homing her
> YOURSELVES is a disastrous idea - U have no CONTRACT that's legally binding,
> U lack the RESOURCES of a registered rescue or shelter, U can't INVESTIGATE
> prospective adopters as they can, & U can't GUARANTEE U'll be there in the
> ...


 This is obviously something you feel very strongly about and I'm grateful you took the time to write your feelings on this. You've helped to put some things into context and you've brought to light some issues that I hadn't previously considered properly. Someone on my other thread (in the rehoming section) has linked to a Jack Russell rehoming charity that puts their dogs into foster homes instead of kennels. I'm going to investigate this one today.



> dear demented dingleberries...


Was this really necessary?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I am so sorry that things have not worked out.

No-one can say that you have not given it your best shot to make it work with Daisy.

The bottom line is that your daughter is safe and Daisy finds a new, more suitable home.

Your home is simply not suitable for Daisy.

Please do continue with the rehoming centre. I am sure they will make her stay as comfortable as possible, and hopefully she will be snapped up by a loving home very soon. It is likely, that once she is away from your daughter she will relax anyway 

Private rehoming is fraught with problems and uncertainty and I think would be a nightmare for you to manage. The rehoming centre will be best suited to finding the ideal home for Daisy and also assessing any new owners.

I think the majority of people who have been following this thread would commend you for your commitment and effort.

Take care x


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> Seriously?...
> 
> - U have a dog with major aggression issues.
> 
> ...


I don't think this dog has major aggression issues at all, she's just unhappy around very young children.

I thought your post was way over the top and the "dear demented dingleberries" was cruel and unnecessary.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

It sounds to me from this thread that you are doing the best you possibly can for Daisy and certainly don't deserve any criticism.

I can totally appreciate not wanting her to be kennelled. I can see the potential for making an anxious dog more troubled, which I imagine is what the behaviouralist was concerned about. My pup has some nervous aggression and I could invisage it deteriorating if he was kennelled for a significant period.

Having said that the concern with private rehoming especially over the internet is that it could be difficult for you to vet the home and be confident she is getting the input she needs. And it sounds like she really does need a home where the new owners go in with their eyes open and are prepared to work with her. A series of moves because well intentioned people have taken her in but then given her up might not be any better for her than a period in kennels. There was a thread recently where someone rehomed their dog and it turned out the people they rehomed to had misrepresented themselves and situation was very different to what they anticipated.

The breed specific rescue and foster home sounds a good solution. Otherwise is it worth speaking to your vet? I know ours have been involved in rehomings, although I don't know in what situation or how they go about it. I'm sure they would do it responsibly though, so probably wouldn't hurt to ask.

Good luck


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jmc160 said:


> ...
> Things have escalated over the past couple of weeks.
> 
> Daisy has been growling again, & yesterday was the worst of it. My wife was getting some housework done,
> ...


That isn't *"aggression"?*

If growling every time she sees the child isn't what U'd call aggro, what in heaven's name would
U term it?

Return Clauses & adoption contracts:
Here in the USA, virtually EVERY municipal & private shelter has legally-binding contracts which every
adopter must sign, agreeing to *return the pet* they adopt, if for any reason they cannot keep that pet.

WHY doesn't matter; a health crisis, bankruptcy, a sudden move, bereavement, eviction,
job-loss, problem behavior by the pet, problem-behavior by a human [the animal is being tormented
by a neighbor's child; a family-member is neglecting or actively abusing the adoptee; whatever]
THE ADOPTER MUST return the pet, if or when the adoption fails - no matter when that may occur, for the
life of that pet, they are legally required to return the animal to the shelter.

The vast majority of private rescues in the USA also use mandatory adoption-contracts, that require adopters
to *return the pet* if for any reason they cannot keep that pet, for the animal's natural lifespan.

I don't understand why UK-shelters & UK-rescues don't have legally binding adoption contracts. 
The shelter or rescue has a vested interest in the welfare of the animals they have fostered & placed.
As far as i'm concerned, PLACING an animal is only step-1; KEEPING that animal in that home is the
ongoing massive task, for the animal's remaining lifetime.

That means most shelters & rescues in the USA provide some form of ongoing support to adopters,
either in-house help via phone or training classes or training / B-Mod consults by shelter staff, or *referrals*
to other local, hopefully ethical & humane, OUTside trainers, who agree to help adopters coping with some
problem behavior.

The *Dogs' Trust* offers behavior help post-adoption - are they an exception to the rule, in the UK?
Does the RSPCA offer behavior help to adopters? Do they have RETURN clauses in adoption contracts?
I don't know - but IMO & IME, they *should*.

I regard any shelter or rescue that re-homes an animal WITHOUT a "return" clause, or WITHOUT a contract
that's legally binding, reviewed by a lawyer, as unethical & slipshod. I wouldn't adopt from them, i won't
refer any potential adopters to them, i won't suggest them as a source to any family or individual who's looking
for an adoptable pet.

I can't fathom why UK-shelters or UK-rescues WOULD NOT have return-clauses. :blink: It's illogical.
Here in the USA, the biggest obstacle to a return-clause is the mobility of the popn, as an adopter who moves
from NYC to San Diego isn't going to drive or fly the pet back to NYC when they decide they don't want the pet
anymore; OTOH, adopters who DEFY return-clauses & re-home adopted pets in the shelter's / rescue's locale, 
have been successfully taken to court, & the pets were repossessed by the adopting agency after the court 
ruled in their favor.

The UK doesn't have the handy rationale of claiming that the animal is "out of reach" - unless the adopter has
moved out of the country & taken their pet along, which would seem to make giving-up the animal a lot less
likely, as emigration isn't cheap, & moving one's pet isn't cheap, either.

All in all, a dearth of return-clauses in the UK is very strange. I don't understand it at all.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sweety said:


> I thought... "*dear demented dingleberries*" was cruel & unnecessary.


it's a nonsense phrase - no different than _"Sweet suffering saints"_ or _"my stars & garters!"_

It's got zip to do with 'being cruel' - i don't understand where that came from.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

jmc160 said:


> Someone on my other thread (in the rehoming section) has linked to a Jack Russell rehoming charity
> that puts their dogs into foster homes instead of kennels. I'm going to investigate this one today.


:thumbup: :thumbup1: :thumbup: :thumbup1: :thumbup: :thumbup1:

Please do check into them - but be sure they have a RETURN CLAUSE in their contract, should the adoption fail 
for any reason, or in case the dog becomes homeless in the future [death of the adopter, etc].


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Daisy is now listed as _"available soon..."_ on JRT Rescue-UK's website:

Jack Russell Terrier Rescue UK - Dogs Looking For Forever Homes Jack Russell's & Other Small Dog's


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> That isn't *"aggression"?*
> 
> If growling every time she sees the child isn't what U'd call aggro, what in heaven's name would
> U term it?
> ...


Seems like the US has things a lot more in order where it comes to the welfare of a re-homed dog and since you told me about it, it makes a lot of sense that this is how things should be done. It's a shame we don't seem to have it in the UK and it would be a major advantage if we did, for the peace of mind of those owners who are forced to give up their beloved pets.

I didn't check into the RSPCA, and I have reasons for this but it's not something I'm willing to discuss on a public forum.

As for Dogs' Trust, I'd pretty much forgotten about them so again, I haven't checked into their policies. I may have a look on their web site though and see if they mention anything (purely because I'm curious to see if they have a clause like this or not...)

Needless to say, more charities and re-homing centres should probably have these same clauses and I have no idea why they don't.. The only reason I can think of would be potentially "lack of resources" or something. Seeing as how busy Wood Green is, I can see it being potentially difficult for them to take a dog back at very short notice.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup1: :thumbup: :thumbup1: :thumbup: :thumbup1:
> 
> Please do check into them - but be sure they have a RETURN CLAUSE in their contract, should the adoption fail
> for any reason, or in case the dog becomes homeless in the future [death of the adopter, etc].


I checked into them, and thanks to the information you provided in your earlier reply, I was able to ask them if they have any policies on returns. They confirmed that they *DO *have a requirement in the contract that if the new owners can't keep the dog for any reason, then it goes back to them and they will start the process again.

They also seem to do more checks than others I've been in touch with. There is a requirement that the new owner doesn't have children (good news for us), is financially capable of taking on a dog, and has previous experience of owning and managing a Jack Russell or similar terrier breed.

They've said they'll be able to take her by the end of this week.

So, once again, thank you for the valuable information


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Daisy is now listed as _"available soon..."_ on JRT Rescue-UK's website:
> 
> Jack Russell Terrier Rescue UK - Dogs Looking For Forever Homes Jack Russell's & Other Small Dog's


Yup, we confirmed it over the phone yesterday 

I hadn't checked their website since the call so I wasn't aware she was already on there, but I'm glad to see they're already putting the information out there. I'll be cancelling my appointment with Wood Green as soon as they open today. I couldn't get through to them yesterday unfortunately.


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

good to hear you've managing to get her sorted through a breed rescue - they're usually a lot better than general rescues at being able to match dogs with particular requirements to the right adopters as they know the breed so well. Hopefully it won't be long before she finds herself in a new home without a scary small person worrying her all the time.

Sorry that you weren't able to work through her issues and keep her as part of your family, but you really tried and it wasn't working for her so it would be cruel to keep her increasingly isolated and stressed as she couldn't cope with closer proximity to your daughter and rehoming does sound like the best for all of you.


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## jmc160 (Nov 13, 2013)

FINAL UPDATE:

I'm happy to say Daisy has been adopted and now has a permanent home again.

Jack Russell Terrier Rescue UK - Daisy

I've been told she was a pleasure to have in the foster home and her new owners are very happy to have her. We were all very sorry to see her go, but I'm glad she has a home where she can now relax, have the run of the place and be happy without worrying about toddlers.

Thanks again everybody who commented on this thread, whether it was to offer advice, support, opinions or simply to tell me I was being stupid


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

So glad she has got a home ,and WELL DONE to you for taking so much care in finding her a home and not just giving her to anyone, , xx


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

So glad to hear that she has found a lovely new home where she will be more relaxed and happy.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

A happy ending. Best all round.


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