# Questionnaire for all you breeders!



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I know similar threads have been done before, but i thought this would be interesting.

I have put together a list of questions, based on the real costs of breeding and would really appreciate it if you could take the time to answer the questions, that would then give us an average.

Please when you answer assume its the first litter for the queen and that you are needing to buy all your equipment from scratch. I realise that many of you will reuse a kittening box for example, or reuse the vet bed etc... but for a first time breeder these are the costs they would more than likely have to cover.

so....


all health tests combined - including associated vet fees
stud fee - including travel
If using your own stud, cost of his health tests and his outside pen
kittening box
bedding
scans
costs of pre-mate snap tests/vet visits
food up to kittening
food for litter and mum
kittening kit (nutridrops, lactol etc etc)
potential cost of an emergency section (should it be needed)
worming & flea treatment for queen and kits until they leave home
registration for litter and kittens
average number of kittens in a litter of your breed
cost of kitten related sundries (cleaning stuff, bowls, toys, playpens etc)
kitten vaccinations
loss of income if taking time off work
typical kitten vet related costs (health checks, minor illness' etc)
telephone bill from calling stud owner/vets/buyers/mentor etc
 any misc costs not covered above


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

These are the questions we all try to avoid answering most of the time but I will give it some thought for you. Will take a day or so to work it all out. I can tell you that a c-section in working hours is IRO £600 at my vets but I think that included scanning. I have heard some real horror stories for out of hours prices, especially if the owner has to traipse to one of those 24 hour places. The cheaper chains don't do their own out of hours cover.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

interesting post BBM.

My friend who breeds NFCs keeps very detailed spreadsheets with all these figures (and more)... and it makes frightening reading. 

She has seperate spreadsheets for the one-off costs like outdoor enclosures for her studs, heating for the outdoor runs, kittening box, kittening pen etc... although even those aren't genuinely one-off as things need to be renewed, upgraded or repaired. 

I think she has had 8 or 9 litters in about the space of 4 years, and she is nowhere near breaking even, and that's despite having at least 6 big litters. 

If one thing has shocked me with fostering (and of course many of the things breeders have to pay for, luckily don't count for us foster mums) it is the sheer cost of everything. And many things we generally don't even take into consideration cost a heck of a lot of money too.... The wear and tear on your home and furnishings for instance, or the extra heating to keep a queen and her litter warm, or the extra dailys loads of washing and drying that having kittens entails.


----------



## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

My friend used to breed MC's years ago, no idea on costs but lets just say she was'nt in it for the money & just as well.


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I realise that these are the things most breeders would rather not think about! 

Of course though, thats the entire reason i posted the thread.... I thought it would be a bit of an eye opener (if anyone is brave enough to fill it in ), for the new and wannabe breeders.

Ive lost count of the times people have said to me (and remember i'm not a breeder) about how much money breeders must make... but they forget all the costs involved in setting up, the extra costs whilst raising a litter... and whilst some of the costs can be considered investments (e.g. stud housing or kittening box) which will be reused, many of them will be repeated for each subsequent litter too.

I was hoping that with a few replies the thread could prove useful in pointing out the REAL costs of setting youself up as a breeder... the true cost to the pocket of doing things properly.

I havent asked the sale price of kittens, as tbh i think thats fairly irrelevant and can be found easily on many threads here along with a quick google search.

What i cant find anywhere though, is a complete list of what it really costs to be a good breeder. We all mention the costs to people thinking of breeding, but there isnt a list written down anywhere to refer them to.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The wear and tear on your home and furnishings for instance, or the extra heating to keep a queen and her litter warm, or the extra dailys loads of washing and drying that having kittens entails.


Those are the things which are going to be difficult for me to quantify. It's not just the wear and tear, ten years ago I bought a Miele washing machine which cost significantly more than other brands. I believe it's been well worth the outlay but I probably wouldn't have considered it but for my hobby and the knowledge that certain household items take a real bashing.


----------



## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

I'll be brave and have a think about my costs today - I'll post my results up tomorrow. But PLEASE DONT SHOW MY HUBBY!!

I wonder if the speakers of the "wow you must make a packet" comments will eat their words!!?


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

havoc said:


> Those are the things which are going to be difficult for me to quantify. It's not just the wear and tear, ten years ago I bought a Miele washing machine which cost significantly more than other brands. I believe it's been well worth the outlay but I probably wouldn't have considered it but for my hobby and the knowledge that certain household items take a real bashing.


I bought a Miele washing machine and tumble dryer for the same reason, I was going through 'normal' brand washing machines and tumble dryers faster than any of my friends and family (most of whom have children). I've also got a far more expensive flooring than I would have if I was kitten/foster cat free. I wouldn't know where to start trying to quantify these "housey" expenses though. I also don't have any carpets (or even rugs) for the simple reason they were getting ruined at alarming rates, and I am not sure if that's the same in the UK but here hard floorings cost a lot more than carpets. I also don't have any wallpaper anywhere... so if I move house I need a plasterer to smooth all the walls ready for painting (definitely not cheap!).

Maybe because I generally get all vet expenses paid by the shleter, as well as dry food, kitten replacement milk etc is also paid by the shelter... maybe I notice these "housey" costs more than others.

Interesting question this... it's really making me think!

Oh and another big expense I have just thought of... flea prevention! The spray I use twice yearly in my home costs 20 euro a bottle.... I use about 3 bottles of that per year. Then you have the monthly spot-on treatments ... 3 pippets cost me around 18 euro and I need 24 of those in a year. A bottle of frontline spray costs me around 30 euros. Just for my own two cats and my home... I guess at the very least flea prevention costs me in the region of 220 euros per year (and I only have 2 indoor adult cats). Then of course 30 euro per bottle for frontline spray for the fosters. Oh.... and I had to upgrade to (two) sturdy bagless vaccum cleaners (from normal cheaper ones _with_ bags) also because of "flea prevention". And the very fact we are probably in the monority of two person households who feel the need to own two vacuum cleaners. But I simply got sick fed up of trailing vaccum cleaners up and down stairs.... we do tend to vacuum a LOT more than most 2 person households.


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Its slightly harder for me to answer your exact questions as I run my breeding program as part of my business.

I have invested heavily in all aspects of my business, my catteries and grooming parlour,office have set me back over £8000.

My grooming equipment approx £5000,breeding stock studs and queens approx £8500 I have spent, I have also kept some from previous litters in all my full stock is insured for £14000 pound.

I have insurance costs for animal boarding,breeding, veterinary care,liabilty insurance,insurance to cover accidental injuries resulting from grooming,microchipping liabilty insurance, increased car insurance for transportation of animals used in terms of a business, all in all it costs approx £1100 per year.

I spend approx £80.00 per week on foods and litter, flea prevention and worming costs approx £30.00 per month but that depends on litters size etc if I have any at the time etc.

I have had other equipment costs which are an ongoing thing like bedding,beds,scratchposts,littertrays,bowls they all need replacing from time to time.Over use,damage etc

I have product replacement costs, for the grooming salon,shampoos,ear cleaners etc and they are replaced as and when but my holding stock is valued at £1500

There are other costs involved website hosting,phone charges,water.

It is vastly worth it though,I used to be a very successful chef, I worked 90 -100 hours a week and to say it was extremely stressful is an understatement.

Now I spend my days the complete opposite, I work at my own pace, I groom cats which is very relaxing,play with kittens (my favourite part of my day) and I get to meet all sorts of different pet owners.

Yes it is still hard work,but it is a different kind of hard work. It is exremely rewarding both spiritually and financially.

I know not all breeding is of financial benefit,and it is the last reason anyone should get into breeding.
But anyone getting into breeding properly should know you are going to spend a vast amount of cash,and it is hard to get a good return on your investment simply from breeding,you tend to put in alot more than you get back in terms of breeding.
I run a successful business and breeding only makes up a percentage of it, if I only breed cats and did not run the services I do grooming,boarding,microchipping etc I would still have to be a chef breeding cats as a hobby, as Imo it it hard to make a living from breeding alone.


----------



## Slave2Many (May 7, 2010)

I really have no idea how much things cost individually, we have 3 queens, 2 studs and 3 neuters and we pay out things as a hobby rather than a business (although it might help to run it as part of being self employed).

For 1 cat it roughly works out to be:
Queen @ £1000
Food @ £150
Litter @ £100
Bedding @ £40
Birthing Box @ £60
Cat Furniture @ £120
Annual vaccination @ £35
Worming @ £24
Insurance @ £108
Misc @ £100 (toys, heating if outside etc).

At or just after 1 year, add outside stud fee of £450 unless a stud is bought.
Blood test @ £45
HCM test @ £450

Do bare in mind that the above is all before the first litter and there is no guarantee that the queen will be able to produce anything.

If kittens are sold at £300 - £600 pedigree, you would minus 3 months worth of food per kitten (our costs are increased because we prefer kittens to eat fresh cooked chicken along with dry food from about 6 weeks), the stud fee divided between the litter, different training litter for sensitive bums, double worming (9 & 12 weeks), vaccinations, kitten starter packs (depending on breeder) and heating if the weather is a bit nippy (heating the room they are kept in of course), registration with a governing body...... I am sure there is something I have missed out on...... you would have to produce 6 per litter average. Oh, we have now included chipping and neutering in the price of the kitten.

The above figures do not include anti-biotics for when things go wrong. A bit of litter in an eye can cause an infection which will need drops or ointment, a cattery could pick up a bacteria called Group G Strep which can kill kittens prior to or just after birth. We have also had the added pain where we have entered a show with the adults only to have a queen birth the night before and we have had to stay home which loses money.

To break even or at least produce enough kittens to equal 50% of the outgoings would be a dream come true. That is what makes it a hobby rather than a business.

One thing we are doing now is kitten swapping with other breeders. No money is exchanged, which keeps costs down but it does enable breeders to improve their lines and help eachother. This only works if both breeders have what eachother wants........

Anyone who makes money from breeding is either looking at a proper business or is cutting corners somehow.

We have been through a rough patch because one of our queens had 2 kittens who survived and then on the last kitten, prolapsed and had to have an emergency spay. So unless I sell her only girl as a breeding queen, I have lost money on that queens only litter and because her mum is now a neuter, there is no 'trying again'....... oh, how I love irony.......

Do keep in mind that sometimes you can be left with kittens after they should have gone at 13 weeks, breeders don't just stop providing for their needs and this costs more. Often breeders have to reduce the price of the 'older' kitten, making that kitten (who often has nothing wrong with it) a loss. I've had a kitten neutered and booster vaccinated leave here at 18 months old and sold for £150!!!

This breeding lark aint easy but is no more a waste of money than golf in my eyes and I feel I get more out of it in terms of enjoyment. Chasing a ball around a field for a day in the pouring rain is not MY idea of fun :lol:


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I will do mine later, it will only show Aug/Sept bills. It's not good and I will hav to hide it, possibly.


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Okay, let me see.

Male cat, run, heating, lighting, etc around £400

HCM dna testing X 3 = £80
TICA Reg £50
New girl buy ££££
New Girl register - £11
Charlie registration £20.50 (extra as i phone in and paid via credit card)

Okay vet bills.

1 euthenasia (sp) plus pay bit off vet bill - £65.00.
Vaccs - £80 x 1 but I have another six now. Bill back up to £129.32 - paid off £65.00 - leaving 64.32.

Another Vet - early neutering £75 + consultation an examination £31.08.

Adult Cats boosters = 3 x £40 = £120 - Paid

Girl + kittens unwell = Metacam injection, snyulox and pro-kalin + vet consultation = + some more food £138.

Pets at Home = Natures Menu x 4 or 5 boxes = £22.40
Felix x 48 = £20
felix x 48 = 20
25l ltr anti bac £8.99
RC Kitten - 14.99

Seapets Natures menu x 4 = £29

Zooplus £11.45
Zooplus £45.00

Royal Canin £60.00 x 2 bags dry

Mutley & Mog, I can only find one invoice but have ordered more so they must be hidden (safe). £31.66

Anglian Meat products - £22.00

More litter .....I don't count that usually but around £10 per week, one girl is on a diet of raw mince just now, £5.15 per pound and 3 chicken breasts yesterday were also £5.00

Vet bedding - £22
Fluffy covers £6.00 from Lidl x 5 = £35
Heat Pads £22.00
Vet meds, oh gosh spot on x 6 ???????? (lost)
panacaur paste (lost)

Prokalin from Lloyds £16.99
Baby talc £1.00

Pollock - £3.49 per pack x 4 - one per week.
RC Kitten feeding pack ? unsure how much that is.
Climber - just a little one £39.95

That's all I can think of right now but there is a bit more.

That's only with one kitten, I dread to think about costs of rest of them. 

forgot dopram v - nutridrops!
and lots of balls!!!!!!!!


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

thanks very much ladies!


----------



## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

What is the baby talc for? Im sure I read that I could use it on Louie & it stops tats but


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Dally Banjo said:


> What is the baby talc for? Im sure I read that I could use it on Louie & it stops tats but


Its for their white fluffly chest fluff and when you have to wash them (covered in poo) it helps dry quicker AND it smells lovely!!


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Ive never used it on celeste but i do use it on my persian when she is in full coat.


dust it through clean dry coat and then brush brush brush to remove it

it takes out excess oils and fluffs out the coat lovely.


----------



## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Oh yes l-Lysiene for all - and also yeast another £25.


----------



## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Milly22 said:


> Its for their white fluffly chest fluff and when you have to wash them (covered in poo) it helps dry quicker AND it smells lovely!!





billyboysmammy said:


> Ive never used it on celeste but i do use it on my persian when she is in full coat.
> 
> dust it through clean dry coat and then brush brush brush to remove it
> 
> it takes out excess oils and fluffs out the coat lovely.


:thumbup: thanks peeps LOUIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE :lol:


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

all health tests combined - including associated vet fees
stud fee - including travel
registration for litter and kittens
costs of pre-mate snap tests/vet visits

All the above was dealt with by my mentor in exchange for pick of the litter, so I'm not sure of the total cost on those. I'm sure I'll find out next year!

.

kittening box = *£20*
bedding *£20 (towels this year, but going to buy materials to make vet type beds for next year)*
 Cat litter & extra trays = *£190*
food up to kittening = *£100*
food for litter and mum = *£120*
kittening kit (nutridrops, lactol etc etc) = *£50*
worming & flea treatment for queen and kits until they leave home = *£55*

average number of kittens in a litter of your breed =* 4*
cost of kitten related sundries (cleaning stuff, bowls, toys, playpens etc) = *£150- £200* 
kitten vaccinations = *£52 x 4=£208*
loss of income if taking time off work = *£200*
typical kitten vet related costs (health checks, minor illness' etc) = *£125*
telephone bill from calling stud owner/vets/buyers/mentor etc = *£20*

Total = £1258 - £1308  and next year I have all the test to fork out for *sweats like mad*.


----------



## Slave2Many (May 7, 2010)

Hi Everyone,

I'd like to point out that vets are like every other business out there - they are out to get your custom.....

I am shocked at how much some of you are paying for vaccinations and neuterings/spays. :scared:

I am paying £27 for boosters (minus leukemia vacc coz my breed is indoor only) and only £34 per kitten for full vaccinations.

A neuter is £37 and spay is £45 and my vets will do this from 16 weeks.

Go back to your vets and tell them that you are a breeder of x amount of cats and you always send your kitten owners to them (ie: ask for a discount for loyalty) and if that doesn't work, tell them that you have found another vet that undercuts them by at least £5 per treatment and you are thinking of moving. (£5 doesn't seem a lot but that is a £30 saving for a litter of 6 kittens which is a 10kg bag of RC food!)

I'm not very well at the moment and I have small children so it is sometimes difficult to get to the vets. Mine pick up the cats for me or do a home visit to do mulitiple vaccinations for a small callout charge as long as it is within normal 7am-7pm hours.

I really hate that we can only get HCM tests via scan - I'd love to onl pay £80 for a blood test :


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Ok here's mine. A few introductory notes:

1. This is my best estimate, it is slightly complicated by the fact that I don't actually buy the cat stuff, let alone the breeding cat stuff, on a separate card. I am debating over doing so, that way one could easily keep very accurate records. My estimate for dry food in particular is slightly complicated by the fact that I feed hedgehogs. I do this by filling a bowl of food outside, this food can be eaten by hedgehogs, outdoor cats, and poor Nelson the one-eyed visitor who seems to have become a permanent fixture (which is a pain because he is an entire male and impossible to catch).

2. I have my own studs and therefore do not have any expenses relating to stud visits or blood tests (any blood tests done because a girl is coming in from outside would be more than covered by the stud fee). I am assuming that I would have my stud cats as neutered pets if I was not breeding. I have ignored the cost of building the runs because those runs should last for a very long time. I can try to estimate further based on those if people want me to. However since the main point of all this is probably to put people off letting their girls out to get pregnant, anything related to studs is not really relevant - it costs nothing to let your girl out!

With those caveats, here we go:

My food bill per DAY: RC £1, cans £1, pouches £3 = £5. This covers (as of right now) 8 adults, 3 nursing mums, 5 older kittens and 7 x 5 week olds. I am assuming that pregnant and nursing mums eat on average double the usual amount and do so for 15 weeks (less earlier, more later), and that kittens eat on average 1/2 the usual amount between 4 and 13 weeks (obviously, far less earlier and more later). If this is a reasonable assumption, I am feeding the equivalent of 22 adults. This calculates at about 23p per day per cat. This means that nursing mums cost 23p per day more to feed and each kitten costs (on average) 12p per day to feed. Extra food costs for Mum are £24.15 per litter, food costs for kittens £7.56 each. Assuming 4 kittens in the litter, the total food costs are IRO £14 per kitten. Obviously the moggy breeder letting kittens go at 8 weeks would save substantially on this.

Litter £5 per week in total but not all the cats use it, some go outside always, some go out but come in to use the trays, and many always use it because they are not allowed out The £5 a week probably covers about 10 cats ie. 50p per cat per week. Assuming kittens use as much as an adult for 9 weeks, and queens use double for 15 weeks, the total cost per kitten is £4.50 and the extra cost per queen is £7.50 - divide this by four kittens and you have £1.88, making a total cost per kitten of £6.38. This, of course, is another area where your average moggy breeder would save a small amount since the vast majority of moggies would be allowed out.

vaccs + chip £80 per kitten (would not be done by moggy breeders). My expenses on this are higher than most because I have everyone microchipped and do vaccinations for everything, FeLV and Chlamydia included. This is by far the biggest expense and I hope to cut it down a bit soon by doing my own microchipping (going on a course in two weeks). For the standard vaccines only, I would be paying £30 per kitten.

Registry approx £9 per kitten (again would not be done by moggy breeders)

I make that a total of around £110 per kitten - but if I used only standard vaccines that would fall to around £60 per kitten.

*It is necessary to shout loud and clear that these costs only apply if nothing goes wrong. Three times I have ended up with a vet bill in the region of £800 - for a litter of four, that puts an extra £200 onto the cost of raising a kitten. For a pedigree breeder of a lower cost breed that wipes out the profit. For a moggy breeder, it puts them into a loss making situation. And of course those vet fees remain the same even if the entire litter dies.*

Liz


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

thank you xx


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Im going to have a stab at this but Im finding it difficult to quantify so I dont know how accurate it will end up. All the costs Ive given are basic and assuming everything goes hunky-dorey, i.e. no illness in stud/queen/kittens. I dont even like to think about additional costs that you always seem to forget to include.

Purchase of queen £475
+ fuel there and back, twice, to god knows where  conservatively, £80
+ cost of all cat-related stuff  bed, litter trays, carrying basket, scratching post, etc  conservatively, £150

1. health tests  almost impossible to answer. If I assume Im a total novice, didnt do my homework on lines/reputable breeders before purchase and only discovered afterwards that I should be checking for certain things in my breed then, conservatively, £300 for HCM scan with cardiac specialist (there is no DNA test in my breed) and PKD test.
2. stud fee - £200
+ fuel to and fro (hopefully only once) - £30 if youre lucky
3. If using own stud  if I include initial cost of stud £500-the skys the limit.
His health tests  yearly HCM scan £275. One-off PKD £25. Yearly routine FeLV/FIV test £65. The truly frightening costs  outside pen - £800. Heater, light, electrics, cost of electrician to install, yearly maintenance for stud house, yearly food bill for stud, booster vacs, bedding, beds  it probably runs into a four figure sum and I couldnt even begin to add it all up.
4. Kittening box  free; use a cardboard box and chuck it away afterwards because money is now tight.
5. bedding  if youre on a budget (and by now you will be, because youre skint), buy blankets from a charity shop - £10. 
6. I personally dont have my cats scanned
7. Pre-mating tests - £65
8. Not sure if this is from purchase of queen as kitten or just food for duration of pregnancy. Assume just for duration of pregnancy; £1 per day = £65 for duration of pregnancy
9. Food for litter and mum up to 13 weeks  going to have to guess this as Ive never added it up  at a conservative guess (feeding something very basic) , i.e. queen for 13 weeks @ £1 day = £91. 4 x kittens @ 50p/day each for 8 weeks = £112. 50p a day who am I kidding?
10. Kittening kit  £40
11. Emergency c-section if needed  averaging out those Ive paid for - £300 if within surgery hours. £600 out of hours.
12. worming & flea treatment, queen and 4 kittens - £40
13. registration  4 kittens, £45
14. Four
15. Remembering Im now on the poverty line, I buy only the basics - £50
16. £32 per kitten = £128
17. Cant really quantify this. Anything from £0 (if queen obliges and delivers when Ive booked holiday) up to £300 for cancelled work shifts if she hasnt. Alternatively, you could include your whole yearly income if youre sacked, as I was, for throwing too many sickies at work because you need to be at home to oversee delivery/hand feed for 4 weeks when a queen has no milk. If you want to breed cats and have an actual career at the same time  forget it.
18. Minor illness in kittens, say dietary upset - £80
19. Phone bill  no idea! £30?

Im not even going to add that up, its horrendous  And thats without unexpected vet bills unless youre extremely fortunate. Yearly, ongoing costs for: wear and tear on furniture, fuel back and forth to vets, heating bills, cleaning products the list is endless. And I wonder why I walk round in rags, cut my own hair, drive a knackered old car and havent taken a holiday since 1993.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm now reading everyone's else's input avidly lol... trying to see how my costs compare and where I might be able to save a few pennies  There are some things I wouldn't skimp on - quality of food, for instance. Conversely, I don't particularly mind (nor the do cats) the look of my old, but still very serviceable, tatty Vetbed - so long as it's clean, that's all that matters IMHO.

Liz, what cat litter do you use? I'm currently using wood pellet for my 6 cats @ £9/bag. I use 1.5 bags/week, so that's £13.50/week = £54/month.. and way more than that when we have kittens.

I use wood pellet mainly because of disposal problems (long drive to a tip where they actually take soiled/bagged cat litter) - i.e. I flush what I scoop and only bag up for disposal when I tip the whole lot out and replace. I'm now wondering if wood pellet works out quite expensive....


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

A couple of big expenses that I notice two breeding friends of mine incur, but aren't mentioned here… are:

*showing* and the *bringing of kittens to their new homes *(or vetting the homes of new owners).

Mind you I am not sure all breeders do both of these things. But for those that do, they are (I think) massive expenses.

Showing is tough one to quantify (especially since I have never shown a cat in my life, lol). But just to get a rough ball park figure… say they show one of their studs and two others of their cats or kittens at each show… registration alone costs €100 per show. Say they enter 8 shows a year on average, that's *€800 on show fees per year*. Petrol money to get to the shows, again, hard to quantify… but say an average round trip of 4 hours (or 400km) per show. That's almost 3,500 km on an annual basis. Do I even dare hazard a guess what the petrol cost would be?? I guess…. about another *€800 per year for petrol* just for showing (I could be WAY out with that guestimate, working out fuel costs has never been a strong point of mine). And I dare say there are loads more costs incurred while showing that I don't even know of (curtains for the pens, blankets and beds for showing, sturdy rolling travel crates spacious enough for litter tray and or food for the long journeys, perspex sheeting for the show cages, the odd hotel night when travelling to further away shows, are just the ones I can think of off hand).

I just emailed my friend and asked her (roughly) what it cost in petrol when she brought her last litter of 4 kittens to their new homes. She reckoned around €200 (that's another £170, or to put it another way *£42.50 per kitten*, just to give the house a once over!).


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tje... most definitely! I didn't include the cost of showing which, as you've outlined, is astronomical. I suppose it could be argued that it isn't strictly necessary to show your cats. All I can say though is that showing and gaining yourself a good reputation amongst other breeders goes a long way to helping generate kitten enquiries. Advertising kittens these days needn't (and usually doesn't) cost a penny but it certainly helps to keep breeders' expenses down if kittens are reserved and go off to their new homes at 13 weeks... rather than eating you out of house and home if you still have them at 4/5 months old 

I'm sounding rather businesslike here - only because the the thread is about breeders' costs - but it's not my intention to remove the emotional aspects of breeding which, for me, are huge.

Nine times out of ten, kittens are collected by their new owners from my home but yes, just this weekend I'll be spending aorund £30 on fuel to save someone a small part of a (second) several hundred mile round trip to collect a kitten. That won't be added to the kitten's purchase price... and thinking back over the last 12 months this will be my third trip for the same reason.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

You can't count showing as part of breeding expenses, unless perhaps you have a very popular breed where the pet price is vastly less than the price of a show cat. In that case, if you have top show cats, you would need to keep proving the fact, but that would surely be offset by the vast increase in the cost of your kittens. I have in mind a Burmese breeder who was known to charge £1000 for an active register boy, back in the early 90s when the average price for an active register girl was about £150. She could only do that because she had a high reputation on the show bench.

Liz


----------



## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

I wouldn't count showing as part of the fees as it is a hobby I would do breeding or not & most kitten buyers simply do not care!


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

But surely if you show and have prize winning breed examples, it effects the price of your cats? They will become sought after, and maybe the breeder has spent a lot of money developing their breed to achieve this show winning example? It's part of the cycle isn't it? If you choose to go down that route anyway.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> I'm now reading everyone's else's input avidly lol... trying to see how my costs compare and where I might be able to save a few pennies  There are some things I wouldn't skimp on - quality of food, for instance. Conversely, I don't particularly mind (nor the do cats) the look of my old, but still very serviceable, tatty Vetbed - so long as it's clean, that's all that matters IMHO.
> 
> Liz, what cat litter do you use? I'm currently using wood pellet for my 6 cats @ £9/bag. I use 1.5 bags/week, so that's £13.50/week = £54/month.. and way more than that when we have kittens.
> 
> I use wood pellet mainly because of disposal problems (long drive to a tip where they actually take soiled/bagged cat litter) - i.e. I flush what I scoop and only bag up for disposal when I tip the whole lot out and replace. * I'm now wondering if wood pellet works out quite expensive....*


Well I can tell you that the switch from wood pellets to Cat's Best Clumping (and totally flushable I might add) has been not only great for preventing smells, but also the price. I went from spending £120ish a month to £14 -£28 (only more if the bags/trays didn't quite stay fresh for the full 4 weeks) roughly  If only it were safe to use during those first few weeks of training!


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> You can't count showing as part of breeding expenses, unless perhaps you have a very popular breed where the pet price is vastly less than the price of a show cat. In that case, if you have top show cats, you would need to keep proving the fact, but that would surely be offset by the vast increase in the cost of your kittens. I have in mind a Burmese breeder who was known to charge £1000 for an active register boy, back in the early 90s when the average price for an active register girl was about £150. She could only do that because she had a high reputation on the show bench.
> 
> Liz


Well as I don't breed and don't show, I am certainly not in a position to contradict you…. but I when I ask breeders why they show they all give reasons that imply showing benefits their overall success as a breeder. The say things like it helps them get publicity for their stud services and can allow them to up their price when they have a stud with a good pedigree, it helps having kittens (kitten sales) coming from mothers and fathers with good pedigrees, you get to meet (and in many respects vet) potential new owners at shows and also helps kitten sales, you get to meet new breeders and can swap kittens intended for breeding instead of going to the expense of buying. But of course I do agree that you don't HAVE to show to be able to breed… but there would be no breeds and no breed standards and no regulations if people didn't show. Would I not be right in saying that all the top breeders show their cats (or at least show some of their cats?)

Regards the vastly inflated price for cats on the active register… I am told that that is very much a British problem, it's not such a big deal on the continent. And I think there must be a lot of truth to this as one new breeder here on the forum could just not get a boy for love nor money on the active register (within her breed) in the UK, yet managed to get plenty of offers from breeders in Holland and Germany. The UKs natural sea borders act in a way to help breeders who want to price new breeders and new blood and new competition out of the market. Years ago when I bought my BSH female and male when they were both kittens… I was considering breeding at that time, there was NO difference in price. All the breeder asked (insisted upon) was that I allow her (or another reputable experienced breeder) to coach and mentor me if I went ahead with breeding, which I didn't anyway as it all seemed (and still seems) too costly and too much responsibility for me.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> But surely if you show and have prize winning breed examples, it effects the price of your cats? They will become sought after, and maybe the breeder has spent a lot of money developing their breed to achieve this show winning example? It's part of the cycle isn't it? If you choose to go down that route anyway.


that was my thinking too. If I compare my two current girls... they both come from good breeders, one shows one doesn't. The breeder who does show.. her kittens go for a good 200- 250 more than the one who doesn't show.

And as much as I agree showing is just another aspect of the big hobby called BREEDING.... surely it must do some financial good at the end of the day. I see all these breeders at shows and hear all their stories of getting up at 3am and getting back home at 10pm... all the money it costs them... surely it MUST reep some financial rewards. :scared:

me... I'll just keep going looking at shows, lol.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> But surely if you show and have prize winning breed examples, it effects the price of your cats? They will become sought after, and maybe the breeder has spent a lot of money developing their breed to achieve this show winning example? It's part of the cycle isn't it? If you choose to go down that route anyway.


Depends on the breed. It seems to make a huge difference to the price of Bengals for example, but for Asians (my main breed) - a low priced and little known breed - it seems to make no difference at all.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> I see all these breeders at shows and hear all their stories of getting up at 3am and getting back home at 10pm... all the money it costs them... surely it MUST reep some financial rewards..


No, we do it for the titles. Honestly!

Liz


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I personally don't (and wouldn't) count the cost of showing within my cat costs, if you see what I mean. The whole thing is a hobby and, showing aside, I don't think there are many hobbies where you have a hope - albeit a vain one most of the time! - of recouping a percentage of what you spend on that hobby. Not bloody likely given by what I worked out for this thread this morning 

If you're one of those breeders with a 'high' reputation and, as a result, charge a big premium for your kittens... well, fine, that's up to the individual and if people are willing to pay those prices who am I to criticise?

For the sake only of illustrating what I do personally, I'll have to blow my own trumpet which I rarely, if ever, do. I've been breeding/showing for a very long time. I've had a lot of success show/breeding wise though it was a long time coming, fraught with problems, setbacks and disappointments. I receive a huge number of enquiries for kittens both for pet and show/breeding; more than I could ever hope to meet because I don't have many litters per year. But I don't charge any more for a top quality kitten with really promising show potential than I do for a pet. They all cost me the same to raise and I value a smashing pet home over most show/breeding homes. I've also never forgotten (heck, I'm reminded on a daily basis) how expensive a hobby it is and how heartbreaking (and bank balance busting) it can be when things go wrong - so I simply do not like to charge people the earth.

It's just a hobby and the only thing I'd ever pat myself on the back for is all the hard work I've put into it for so many years; though it's more a labour of love than work. I could earn fives times as much working at McD's


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tje, sorry, that made giggle  I think there are probably some breeders as I mentioned above who put a very high premium on their kittens as a result of their show success.. so yeah, I'm sure that for some people show wins equates with financial gain.

But honestly, for the bog-standard breeder/exhibitor like myself show wins are totally meaningless in a financial sense - other than it's a massively expensive day out and you come home with a pile of rosettes that gather dust somewhere and a nice warm fuzzy feeling because your cat won... or a disgruntled one if your cat didn't win that last you all the way to the following Tuesday


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

I guess at the end of the day then if a breeder can get more money for kittens that come from parents with titles, or higher stud fees then the extra money that it costs the breeder to get those titles (the extra money spent showing) is the reason why those kittens from titled parents cost more than a kitten from parents with no titles. 

I suppose its a bit like a pair of jeans designer label or high street chain shop. Different prices different quality of goods. 

Though gawd only knows I hate comparing a cat to a pair of jeans. Lol.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Tje, sorry, that made giggle  I think there are probably some breeders as I mentioned above who put a very high premium on their kittens as a result of their show success.. so yeah, I'm sure that for some people show wins equates with financial gain.
> 
> But honestly, for the bog-standard breeder/exhibitor like myself show wins are totally meaningless in a financial sense - other than it's a massively expensive day out and you come home with a pile of rosettes that gather dust somewhere and a nice warm fuzzy feeling because your cat won... or a disgruntled one if your cat didn't win that last you all the way to the following Tuesday


see thats what I don't get.... lol. 

Don't get me wrong... I love wandering around the shows, having a coffee and a blether and buying bits and pieces at the stands... but I cannot for the life of me work out why I would want to get up 4 hour earlier, get home 4 hours later, be ten times more knackered than I already am after a day at a show .... and not acheive anything. lol.

I'm all for hobbies... but give me one that starts at 8pm on a Tuesday night and gets me back home by 10pm at the latest, lol. And don't think I am paying a hundered quid to enter that hibby either, lol.

and don't get me started on how I would flip if a judge dared tell me my cats tail was too bent or its ears weren't far apart enough or it's expression was too open (whatever the heck that even means!!!!!).... I swear that particular judges ears would be on seperate sides of the English channel if I was showing, lol. (ok, so I don't take too well to criticism of my cats beauty, heheehe).


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I guess so. I've never thought of it in that way - that some breeders might try to offset some/all of their showing expenses against selling their kittens for higher prices. Me, I've never thought to do that and I don't have a brain capable of the maths anyway 

For me, the benefits of showing and any successes gained along the way.. I think the biggest benefit (aside from simply enjoying my day out in the company of friends) has been that it generates a lot of enquiries for me which means that I be picky - in the nicest possible way - about the homes my kittens go to.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

pmsl! (sorry, I dunno how to do the quote thing). And you think I don't wonder why too!? It's madness. Get up in the middle of the night, walk round a freezing (or boiling hot) hall all day knackering my poor old body, eat floppy microwaved chips from the cafe, get home after dark feeling like something long since dead and not recover until the middle of next week. And pay for all that lol ! Probably why I've only done it twice in the last 4 years - quite honestly I just have the energy, will, money or inclination. And really, on a serious note, showing isn't what it used to be (I know, I sound old, but I am relatively speaking)... the entries, numercially speaking, are tiny. Probably because so many people are equally fed up with the distinct lack of 'glamour' on the day for so much expense


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Aurelia, saw your post just before I popped out so I've bought some Cats Best  With the wood chip I tend bin the whole trayful every second day, by which time it's usually impossible to get the wet/sawdust'y stuff out and it's stinking.. though must admit I don't put a lot in the tray initially because I know it's all going to get chucked pretty quickly. So, a little experiment in half the trays to see which bag lasts the longest


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm sure you wont look back  I certainly wont, and am not looking forward to the expense of woodchip litter for next years litter :lol:


----------



## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

lizward said:


> No, we do it for the titles. Honestly!
> 
> Liz


Exactly! I WISH they gave money as rewards. :lol:

Within my breed, the only difference in prices I have seen is that a very well titled stud is often closer to £150 whilst the lesser titled are £100 but I have seen many well titled cats with the same stud fees as cats without any title as not every breeder prices based on show success. I also am not aware of a higher fee for kittens from "famous" catteries either - seems to be a consensus to keep to the same fees across the board for kittens (£400 for a Birman kitten) with _some _catteries charging extra for show potential or breeding potential. Show success itself does not = more money for a kitten. I do it because I enjoy it & I will continue to do it when breeding to help & support my lines as they develop in terms of the breed standard.

I also, whilst we are on the subject, do not understand why the fee someone pays for a queen is relevant. If there is a difference in price between a non-active and an active queen then that should be quoted, surely, as I know my cats are pets first & foremost & I would have them regardless of breeding!!


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

its a bit late so I wont write the breakdown of everything but:

we have spent £2875 and thats in the past 3 months for my current 3 litters.
(not including buying the queens that would be £2200 for the 3 on top of these costs) 

Its going up & up and nothing coming back in so its very scary reading!
I really would love to break even...not likely looking at our breakdown of costs outgoings just seem to rise!!

I dont like reading my outgoings *burried head in sand again* 

Edit: I have someone view a kitten this week who said 'OH this is my dream 'job' (sitting in a room with the kittens) I might give up work to do it!' 

She never got a kitten from me!


----------



## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

Shamelessly copied from Wikipedia ...

"A hobby is an activity or interest that is undertaken for pleasure or relaxation, typically done during one's leisure time."

I class myself as a hobby breeder - after researching thoroughly before starting my hobby, I fully understood that I wouldn't be making money. In every hobby, you expect to have to invest in equipment and spend time perfecting your chosen hobby. I breed because I enjoy the responsibility, I enjoy having kittens running and playing in my house for 13 weeks then finding them brilliant homes, I enjoy meeting new people and showing off my cats! I love the excitement and drama of the delivery and I love the bond that this gives me with my girls - I would never expect to do this AND get paid for it! 

My other hobby is horse riding - I have 2 horses in which I have invested £6000 (purchase price), on top of this I pay £60 per week in stable and grazing costs, £50 per month in hay and feed, £80 every 6 weeks to have them shod and approx £100 per year in wormers for them. I'll not go into vet costs in too much because This is offset by insurance which costs around £700 per year. I pay £20 per week for lessons and around £200 in entry fees for competing. 

Both hobbies give me an enormous amount of pleasure but I wouldn't expect someone else to pay for my pleasure (hubby excluded ). But then I'm sure if Hubby knew how much I cost to keep each month ... he may well look for a cheaper hobby himself!!!!


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> I have someone view a kitten this week who said 'OH this is my dream 'job' (sitting in a room with the kittens) I might give up work to do it!'
> 
> She never got a kitten from me!


O I'd just have told her a couple of horror stories related to vet bills, that usually sorts them out 

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

sootisox said:


> I pay £20 per week for lessons and around £200 in entry fees for competing.


What, per week??!! :lol:


----------



## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

I routinely show prospective buyers my "cat facilities" ie stud pen, cat runs etc, thinking that if they saw what was involved in cat breeding and the potential costs of equipment alone - it may put them off attempting to breed and becomming a BYB. It worked for a while I thought ... Until I got one numpty stating "blimey - you must make a fair bit of profit to be able to afford something like this!!"

ummm NO "something like this" is precisely the reason there's no profit in breeding!! 

I now concentrate on explaining to the viewers that all girls spray and yell all night when calling - and my stud boy explains that to them himself his his very own "doesn't my run smell delicious", manly way .


----------



## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

lizward said:


> What, per week??!! :lol:


Nooooo - £20 lessons per week and around £200 entry fees per year lol (my bad!). I forgot to add bedding costs to the first post too. £14 per week in the summer and at least £28 per week through winter. Oh, travel to and from the yard and to shows is pretty damn expensive too!

Cat breeding actually sounds fairly reasonable cost wise compared to horses!! I feel so much better now about the cats! *putsheadbackinsand*


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tell me about it, I had horses myself at one time. I miss them sometimes 

Liz


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lizward said:


> O I'd just have told her a couple of horror stories related to vet bills, that usually sorts them out
> 
> Liz


Oh I do!! I have my 'speech' ready!! I dont mind if they have a genuine interest in breeding and we can talk but people do just see lovely kittens running about. Not the kitten who faded at birth  the weeks I spent feeding them every 2 hours or the trip to the vets at 2am with a £115 consult fee or the fees for health tests and stud fees and the food...the food injections at £50 a pop! lol! I could go on but I think you understand lol!



sootisox said:


> I routinely show prospective buyers my "cat facilities" ie stud pen, cat runs etc, thinking that if they saw what was involved in cat breeding and the potential costs of equipment alone - it may put them off attempting to breed and becomming a BYB. It worked for a while I thought ... Until I got one numpty stating "blimey - you must make a fair bit of profit to be able to afford something like this!!"
> 
> ummm NO "something like this" is precisely the reason there's no profit in breeding!!
> 
> I now concentrate on explaining to the viewers that all girls spray and yell all night when calling - and my stud boy explains that to them himself his his very own "doesn't my run smell delicious", manly way .


Oh dont! I had someone say 'you must make a fortune!' After I reduced my kittens by £150 as no one was buying! Yeah Im rolling in it! Thats why after 2 years of moving in we still havent decorated...kittens come first sorry boyf!



lizward said:


> Tell me about it, I had horses myself at one time. I miss them sometimes
> 
> Liz


I miss horses used to ride I loved it have always been horse obbsessed I wonder if people who love horses/dogs/cats/everything else always go onto breed......?


----------



## Slave2Many (May 7, 2010)

In my eyes, I see showing my cats as a way to educate visitors to the show about the breeds, how they differ and most importantly to make sure that I am on track for breeding the right standards.

I would personally hate to be breeding away, only to find that the trait I have got is totally wrong - the only way I know that I am breeding the best of the best is by goin to a show and getting a few judges to say 'yeah, lovely sized ears, coat, body shape and profile' Even if my cats aren't being finalled (TICA), I at least know how they compare to what else is out there.

It also helps as a breeder to see what others are breeding, some help me to find my next best cat and also which cats to stay well away from......

I have never had a sale from a show, although with the local show we are having here in November, I hope that it will help with exposure, although this is not my main reason for going......


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> Oh dont! I had someone say 'you must make a fortune!' After I reduced my kittens by £150 as no one was buying! Yeah Im rolling in it! Thats why after 2 years of moving in we still havent decorated...kittens come first sorry boyf!


I can beat that - 9 years and counting 

Liz


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> I miss horses used to ride I loved it have always been horse obbsessed I wonder if people who love horses/dogs/cats/everything else always go onto breed......?


It's been almost 10 years now since I last owned a horse.... but it hasn't brought me closer to breeding. Although I don't breed and never have.... I think because I foster shelter kittens, I have a fairly good understanding of how financially draining it all is, and that's my main reason for not breeding (that and the heartbreak factor that goes with it some of the time).

Besides, I kinda like the idea that I can say to the shelter between these two dates I am going on holiday... and it's their problem, lol, not mine. Besides I know if I was breeding I either wouldn't have the money to go on holiday or I would have kittens due, or kittens to rear, or a calling queen which my cat sitter would object to.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> Besides I know if I was breeding I either wouldn't have the money to go on holiday or I would have kittens due, or kittens to rear, or a calling queen which my cat sitter would object to.


My last holiday was in 1995 - unless you count an OU summer school in 2007.

Liz


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> My last holiday was in 1995 - unless you count an OU summer school in 2007.
> 
> Liz


oh dear.... see... that's why I am slefish enough to know that come the last week of January, any rescue (probaly not kittens at that time of year) that I do have.... I can just drive them from my house to the shelter or another foster home and go off cheerily on holiday. My friend who breeds... they eventually got around to thinking about a holiday and getting the money together. Around the time they were booking, one of the quuens needed a c-section (weekend or night time rates) .... then she couldn't feed the kittens afterwards ... so with the c-sections costs and the umpteen tubs of kitten replacement milk... that came to just above 1000 euros and their holiday plans were shelved... yet again.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'd promised to answer this post and hadn't done yet because I was trying to work it out. The costs that most posters have listed are the easily quantifiable ones whereas I wanted to get the true extra costs which we all try to ignore. I can't! 

I have a litter at the moment and the heating is on. I might have the heating on for a couple of hours in the evening or light a fire in the living room if I didn't have kittens. I honestly can't tell you how much the difference is going to cost. I can't for the life of me work out how much extra soap powder, electricity and water I'm using to wash kitten bedding, how much more it costs to have lights/radio/tv on through the nights when there is a weaker baby to watch over, how much more my phone bill is going to be through ringing people back because I've missed their call etc etc etc. 

Yesterday we had visitors and they stayed for ever. By the time they left, the cats had been seen to and the dog walked I was exhausted, gave in and sent out for takeaway. It was money I wouldn't have spent if I didn't have kittens and it won't be the last time even with this litter. Do I count in the coffee they drank, the biscuits they ate? I don't begrudge it at all but these ARE all extra costs directly associated with breeding a litter of kittens.


----------

