# Whelpi weight gain?



## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

So Poppy's pups are now 8 days old. I have been feeding every 2 hours with Whelpi but find that weight gain is very little. Roughly around 2-4 grams per day 

Vet has said most puppies fed artificial milk from birth have a very slow weight gain.

Just a bit concerned as they are 8 days old and on the whelpi it says to feed every 3 hours now, I'm not sure as to how much weight they should be putting on without mums milk.
Have any of you used this before and what was weight gain like?

Some have said to feed goats milk at 2 1/2 weeks?

Puppies are tiny! Largest weighs 158grams and smallest 124g.

Any advice is much appreciated  Thank you.


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## SharonM (Mar 2, 2010)

When I hand reared one of my litters I was feeding every 2 hours for the first couple of weeks, I swapped them over to goats milk at 3 weeks and never looked back, the weight just piled on once on the goats milk, I also weaned them very early so that did help.


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## thedogcabin (Jul 19, 2011)

I have 1 week old miniature dachshund pups who are feeding from mum (luckily) and they are putting on 25-45 grams a day, just to give you some idea. They were all around 200g at birth and now weigh 400-500g.

Keep going with the bottle feeding, you will get there. As long as they are gaining, however little, its much better than them losing. Do you feed until the pups are full or are you giving them a set amount. I would keep feeding every 2 hours for now.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> Puppies are tiny! Largest weighs 158grams and smallest 124g.


What breed are they? had to translate into "old money" - that's a weight range of 4.37 to 5.7 ounces.

If they were Lab pups I would be seriously worried (over three litters my pups have weighed between 12 and 21 ounces at birth)

I would expect them to double their birth weights - I have no idea whether this is the same in other breeds.

If you can give the breed - hopefully you will get some responses from breeders of the same . similar size breeds who can give you some advice.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

swarthy said:


> What breed are they? had to translate into "old money" - that's a weight range of 4.37 to 5.7 ounces.
> 
> If they were Lab pups I would be seriously worried (over three litters my pups have weighed between 12 and 21 ounces at birth)
> 
> ...


Like Swarthy I am not with the grams but in ounces that is TINY.....that would be on the small side for 8 day old Chi pups but I have never completely fed a litter....only given odd tube feeds to small or weak puppies that are not thriving.

Do you not have a Mentor who is experienced?

I really feel for you....Ive tube fed 2 hourly.....exhausting isnt the word. I hope you are getting a break and some support.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

French bulldogs Swarthy. Mum is very show typey and only weighs just over 10kg before puppies. The sire is quite small too he weighs about 12kg. 
Sorry I'm useless with ounces 

Yes have 2 mentors. Prefer the advice of one though as hes been breeding bulldogs for 12 years.

I had been feeding set amounts but now feeding them until they are full. Been doing this for the last 3 days. Pups seem much more contented this way.

It really is exhuasting. I'm napping between feeds and OH keeps an eye them then.

I had expected them to have doubled in weight but they haven't.

Chichi I have seen a 13 week old teacup chi. Tiny little thing! These pups are the size of that just now if that helps? Unless we seen an extremely small one


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

love our big babies said:


> Chichi I have seen a 13 week old teacup chi. Tiny little thing! These pups are the size of that just now if that helps? Unless we seen an extremely small one


Sorry, I know this was directed at chichi, but that's a bit of a 'how long is a price of string' statement... Teacups aren't a real thing, and everyone seems to have theirown option on how small a dog has to be to be 'teacup'. Some say my kuki is a mini and poppet a small standard, but there is no mini, and popps over the standard!
Honestly, I'd be worrying about their weights- do they seem to be developing normally?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chichi said:


> Like Swarthy I am not with the grams but in ounces that is TINY.....that would be on the small side for 8 day old Chi pups but I have never completely fed a litter....only given odd tube feeds to small or weak puppies that are not thriving.
> 
> Do you not have a Mentor who is experienced?
> 
> I really feel for you....Ive tube fed 2 hourly.....exhausting isnt the word. I hope you are getting a break and some support.





kodakkuki said:


> Sorry, I know this was directed at chichi, but that's a bit of a 'how long is a price of string' statement... Teacups aren't a real thing, and everyone seems to have theirown option on how small a dog has to be to be 'teacup'. Some say my kuki is a mini and poppet a small standard, but there is no mini, and popps over the standard!
> Honestly, I'd be worrying about their weights- do they seem to be developing normally?


Thanks guys - having Lab pups who would more than likely be ranging between 1.5 to 2 pounds at this stage (or possibly even more), I am well out of touch (30 years) with how this equates in smaller breeds - but the weights do seem very low.

==================================
I have clearly missed some posts along the line - what has happened to mum that she can't feed them?

What is your mentor saying about feeding these pups?

Have they suggested an alternative feed which might be richer and contain more calories for them but without upsetting their tums - this is something you *must* avoid at all costs.

Are you confident in the way you are feeding the pups? are you sure that none of the Whelpi has gone into their lungs (*this is not a criticism* - this can happen with normal size pups - it's not easy feeding such tiny babies.

Are the pups pooing and weeing OK - presumably with help from yourselves.

Are they quiet / loud - is mum with them at all - are they being kept warm when not being fed by you (i.e. do you have heatlamps over the whelping box - most days are quite bright and mild (even warm days like yesterday) - but the temperature drops dramatically overnight - I've just fed my gang and it is bl**dy freezing outside atm

As others have said forget about your 'teacup chi' - I'm not even going to ask how or why you came by this - but it's not a good example and possibly another worry if this pup weighs the same as your babies.

=======================

I know it isn't an exact science - but based on your breed being a third of the weight of a fully grown show Lab - I've calculated the weight range by dividing the top and bottom end of my most diverse litter.

At double their birthweights , Labs would weigh between 24 and 32 ounces - so a third of those weights would be between 8 and 10 ounces (227 to 283 grams) - if assumed proportionate growth with other breeds does folow through - (and it seems it might not if these weights would be light for a chi or yorkie at this stage) then yes - these pups are on the small side.

=====================================

is there anyone out there that has handfed a litter of a similar sized breed?

==============================

If mum is unable to feed them - have you tried seeing if you can get help from a foster mum?

That is nothing against your efforts - but you must be exhausted - it's hard enough when your litter is healthy and feeding well in the first couple of weeks in terms of staying alert to keep an eye on them and stop mum laying on them - never mind having to continually be feeding - blimey - by the time you have finished it will be time to start again.

There is a facebook group that does excellent work in bring pups together with foster mums - maybe someone there can help?-

Orphaned puppy group - Facebook


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

I know "teacups" are jus

t the runts? Only other way to describe it would be that they can fit in the palm of my hand. I don't have big hands lole
Yes they do seem to be developing ok. They are very quiet though hardly make any noise.

I am worried about their weights but vet says its because they are being fed atificial milk
I tried to find someone local to me with a litter but to no avail  most have quite large litters. Smallest one was 6.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> I know "teacups" are jus
> 
> t the runts? Only other way to describe it would be that they can fit in the palm of my hand. I don't have big hands lole
> Yes they do seem to be developing ok. They are very quiet though hardly make any noise.
> ...


Touch wood - I've not had to hand-raise a full litter - I have had to feed two pups one from each of my last litters - both pups sadly died - but the reason behind hand raising was because they weren't thriving in the same way as their litter-mtes.

With regards to them not crying - this does suggest if they are otherwise healthy that they are not hungry - so I wouldn't hold too much stead by that.

The only time my pups have ever been noisy is when they were hungry or when I wormed them on an empty stomach (not something I would do again!!!)

Please do look at that orphaned pups group I've posted the link to on FB - they have a much greater chance of being able to pair you with foster mums - all of whom seem to have done a super job - including in some instances, doubling up on mums litter and feeding them all.

ChiChi and kodakkuki - what is the earliest you could get away with starting to wean them? (obviously OP they would still need the milk) - but weaning (and personally I would be feeding each pup individually in your shoes) may well help in bringing their weights up somewhat.

But I aso think it might be better if you could find a foster mum for these babies, even if it is only for a week or two.


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Poppy didn't develop any milk despite trying everything we could. Even tried the pups suckling but after day 4 (me still feeding of course) was advised by my mentor to stop. 
Pups were born on day 60 by c-section after almost 2 days of her cervix being open and nothing happening. Pups had less movements and vet said it was best to take them out asap. Got a placenta for her to eat too. 
Poppy has shown no interest in them unfortunately  

Mentor suggested letting Juno see them to try and boost her instinct, but nothing. Juno cleaned them and lay with them and Poppy didn't react at all. The following day she mimicked what Juno was doing and seemed to be taking control, but as soon as we took Juno away she went right back to square one 

Mentor suggested goats milk at 2 1/2 weeks.

Pups have a heat mat and hot water bottle (meant to act as mum for warmth) they burrow under a blanket though and always feel warm. I have a sling thing too (mentor suggested it when we had a fading puppy) they are close to my heart so they can hear it and have my body heat too.
Over night I have the heating on a timer come on for an hour off for 2.
It's been freezing here and is all icy outside as well.

I have tube fed them but not confident in it so mentor showed how to use a small syringe and slow drops by getting them to suckle on a finger while dropping milk. Now though for the last few days I have used a bottle. Mainly because their suckling is so much stronger now and manage much better with it.
Haven't had any milk coming from the noses and they don't sound crackly.

Pooing and Peeing fine with my help. They aren't dehydrated either (I check everyday).

Thank you for the link Swarthy will be on that soon  Our vet and mentor had tried to find one local but nothing. 

They are very quick at feeding about an hour at most. I'm weighing them before and after feeds and keeping a record of it too. Mostly they are taking about 2-3 grams of milk in a feed (the biggest takes about 4g) but when feeding comes round again they have dropped back to the previous feeds weight 

Only time they make a noise is if one is suckling on another, feet mostly. It's like the pup is objecting to being suckled on! This is usually around feeding time though 



The chi thing, just to clear it up  Our friend was going to see one and asked us to come along as it is their first dog. Was about a month ago and they took our advice not to buy the pup. Whole different story as to why we advised this.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

swarthy said:


> .
> 
> ChiChi and kodakkuki - what is the earliest you could get away with starting to wean them? (obviously OP they would still need the milk) - but weaning (and personally I would be feeding each pup individually in your shoes) may well help in bringing their weights up somewhat.
> 
> But I aso think it might be better if you could find a foster mum for these babies, even if it is only for a week or two.


If I had to wean early, 2 1/2 is the absolute mimimum for yorklets, they are usually over 3 before they are toddling about ready to lap, and their eyes would be barely open- they don't even have all their teeth until over 6 weeks sometimes. But I have an early wean method worked out- involving a syringe, lactol and royal Canin mini babydog mousse- fed like pure lactol would be. It's a good protien and energy source to boost them up a bit.

Lobb- I'm getting my mum to hunt out the weight book for the last litter- I know they aren't the same breed, but hopefully it will shed some light in weight gains...

Chances are once they start in solids (well, glopp) they shoot up in size. As swarthy already said, a quiet puppy is normally a contented puppy- faders are so easy to spot  
Is Juno still looking out for them for poppy? 
Feeding until they are full is your best bet- then they might start gaining a little extra while still having enough to develop. 
Something tells me you'll be in need of a good hug with all that sleep deprivation (((hugs)))


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Poor girl  once again, the downside of breeding that people don't see until it is too late.

I really would go on that link - I know the lady who runs the group - they have done excellent work in finding foster mothers for pups - and personally, I really think your pups would benefit from it and give you some rest and peace of mind and the pups a much needed boost.

If they are quiet, unless there is something else going on, it does sound like they are not hungry. It's not unusual for the pups to suckle on each other either - usually the boys in the litter come off worst on that front 

My last litter, there was only one boy - as you can imagine - he was the centre of attention 

With regards to changing to goats milk at 2.5 weeks - I started weaning my last litter at 2 weeks because it was clear they were hungry - good job I did as mum stopped feeding completely at 4 weeks - she was dis-interested to start with - but fortunately, she did come around - she was an OK mum, - but she wouldn't clean bums 

I suggest it because once they get onto food - you really will start to notice a difference in their growth rates.

You can get puppy porridge - but I use whatever food I am feeding mum and intend to feed the pups (last litter Pro-Plan) - pour boiling water over it and leave it to stand and then mush it - I also add some Lactol for the first couple of days (if you are using whelpi - then add this instead)

Initially I go in the whelping box with the pups and they suck it off my hands and fingers - great fun  - they soon get used to the idea - then I start feeding them out of bowls - I do a combination of individual and group feeding - these pups could benefit from feeding individually once you have them used to the idea of "proper food".

I also use rice pudding which they get when they go to bed - and as they develop and mum starts moving away - we start adding the foods that mum was eating such as chicken (shredded over the food initially), mince, oily fish - and rice pudding - they absolutely love the rice and it can be good for upset tums.

The other thing I use occasionally on top of goats milk is natural yogurt which is also good for their tums.

You might find an overhead heat-lamp more cost effective than putting the heating on - - they were about £15 when I bought mine, with replacement bulbs around £5 - I did buy some extra bulbs but didn't need them.

Heat lamps for poultry and other animals | Standard Heat Lamp with Energy Saving Switch | Buy 10 pay for 9 !

Some people are reluctant to use them as they can make the whelping box too hot for mum - obviously not a problem you are going to have.

===================================

If you have a girl there who will go in and clean them - let her - if mum follows her - fabulous - just when they are doing this - don't take your eyes off them for a second - mothers can accidentally lay on, and crush pups when they are very young - but if they will help with stimulating for toileting etc - it takes a bit of the pressure of you.

ETA - I posted this before I saw kodakkukis post - thanks for clarifying


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Thank you Kodakkuki and Swarthy  very much appreciated. I have join that FB group now too. OH isn't too keen on taking the puppies to someone though, I will just have to work on him 

Yes Juno is still looking out for them, but I am only allowing this during feeding so as we can keep an eye on them. I feed and Juno cleans, it has made things easier. She cries when away from them and runs to them if they cry. I honestly think if she had milk she would feed them too! She keeps people away from them too. Poppy licks Juno after she has cleaned the puppies so don't know what that's about.

We have 1 boy and yes he gets the worst of it.  He's actually the smallest too.

Swarthy I feel like I live in the whelping pen already! 

Loads of tea and coffee have been helping with the sleep deprivation :laugh:
To be honest I actually enjoy every minute of it! It's became second nature to me feeding these little ones.

Having the fading puppy was so hard, mentor said it would be the hardest part, and was right. She never pinked up though, so it was expected. 
Don't know if this maybe played apart in Poppy not wanting them, as this puppy never went away from the others, always right in the middle of them all. I have read that a fading puppy will move away from the litter?

I did want to get a heat lamp to start with but like you have said, it can make mum hot and I didn't want to risk that. Could get one now though.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> Thank you Kodakkuki and Swarthy  very much appreciated. I have join that FB group now too. OH isn't too keen on taking the puppies to someone though, I will just have to work on him


You need to convince him that if a foster mother can be found - it is in the best interests of both the pups and you.

That's not to say you aren't doing a good job - it's obvious you are devoting every minute to them - just that a bitch's milk in the early days is the best option if they can get it.

Mums do tend to know when a pup is "different" - but you usually find they won't feed and often mum will "push them away" - so I wouldn't have thought this would make much difference to mum - if her instincts had kicked in - she may well have picked up on this herself.

I know with the two pups we lost - mum did what she had to do, we did try holding them on to suckle - but they just couldn't - so we bottle fed.

With Labs because of the size they are born and the speed they tend to gain weight - it becomes pretty obvious within a couple of days if a pup isn't thriving - so you sort of get an idea that there might be a problem 

Hope things work out for you and that the pups continue to thrive where-ever they happen to be

==================================

I do think the topic of this heading should be changed slightly and possibly even made a "sticky" as it is effectively a journey through hand-raising a litter (I don't think there is anything remotely like it) - it might also highlight options such as the FB page which some people may not know about.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

As always, Swarthy has given the best advice possible, so no need to go on there.

One thing I wouldn't happily advise.....syringe feeding.....been there......done that.....lost the litter....heartbreaking. If a weak or fading puppy doesn't take a bottle, then I tube and have had amazing results like this. Also have lost some pups tube feeding but to me......it's last chance saloon......so nothing to lose.

The "teacup" Chi puppy you saw must have been very sick to have been that size. A healthy size for a Chi pup born is 3-5 ounces roughly (have had 2 ouncers survive...some with the help of tube feeding to get them going). So if they double by first week, that puts them at 6 to 10 ounces......so to be that tiny as that pup was, something must have been seriously wrong....poor baby.

Your absolute best bet is to get a foster and though your body is probs running on adrenaline at the moment, trust me, you will crash and that is not going to help anybody. Your health equates in all this....so don't neglect yourself....that is so important!!!

On a side note, if you have another c-section in the future, rub the saved placenta over pups, so that Mum can clean them up and get as close to nature as possible.

For any lurking new breeders seeking info on C Sections.....your girl is not exactly the norm for C Section.....I have had two with my bitches and both had an abundance of milk within an hour or two of coming home.....(bottle fed until it properly came in) .......I trust your Vet gave Oxytocin. One of my girls took about 3 hours to turn into super Mum, the other, as soon as her eyes were open, she was cleaning those babies like mad......so C section is not always such a worry (except to your bank balance, lol).

You are doing a fantastic job with your litter but really try your hardest to talk OH into going down the foster route, if possible. It's best for the babies because although they seem content, they really are on the small side....bless them and take care of yourself x


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Just wondering how the babies are doing today. Hope all is going well x


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Been reading through this over the last couple of days. Big hugs to you l.o.b.b. Hope the pups are thriving and lovely to see how helpful Swarthy and ChiChi have been. Take care of pups and yourself. :001_wub:


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Hi folks sorry I've not posted a reply.
Pups seem to be doing good. Got some good advice on the FB group. Puppies are now having whelpi with goats milk instead of water. They are loving it. 
Smallest was sitting at 124g yesterday morning and is now at 146g! Sorry I know you don't use grams

I don 't know how to make this a sticky lol x


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

love our big babies said:


> Hi folks sorry I've not posted a reply.
> Pups seem to be doing good. Got some good advice on the FB group. Puppies are now having whelpi with goats milk instead of water. They are loving it.
> *Smallest was sitting at 124g yesterday morning and is now at 146g!* Sorry I know you don't use grams
> 
> I don 't know how to make this a sticky lol x


That is fantastic news  Hopefully they will continue in this way now, well done LOBB xx


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

FANTASTIC NEWS......thanks for taking time to update us.....I know how busy you must be atm x


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> Hi folks sorry I've not posted a reply.
> Pups seem to be doing good. Got some good advice on the FB group. Puppies are now having whelpi with goats milk instead of water. They are loving it.
> Smallest was sitting at 124g yesterday morning and is now at 146g! Sorry I know you don't use grams
> 
> I don 't know how to make this a sticky lol x


Wow - that's a big and positive jump - glad the FB group was useful - fingers crossed they continue going in the right direction and I really think one you start weaning them you will notice bigger positive leaps again 

There's 28g to one ounce - so pup has put on nearly an ounce in a day


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Yes all seems good so far  thank you so much for letting me know about the group, they gave been very helpful.
Will need to remember the ounces!
They have just had a feed and they have got longer and heads bigger. 
So I'm going for a sleep 
Will pop back on nearer the end of the week and let you know how they are doing.


Thank you Swarthy and Chichi  x


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

love our big babies said:


> Will need to remember the ounces!


aha - I just "cheat" and ask Google to do the full conversion for me  - it will find a site in seconds 

So glad the pups are starting to come on now - hope you enjoy your well deserved sleep


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

So an update on the babies! 
All doing so well now and since they are 2 weeks old today they also got their first worming! 
Smallest (little boy) weighed 4.6oz when I first posted and now today weighs 5.6oz! So pleased with him. His eyes started opening today too.
Biggest girl weighed 5.4oz and now weighs 6.7oz!

So here's a little photo of our boy whose come so far  dubbed Deuce 









And Poppy since I don't think I have posted a photo of mum on here before  She is 4 years old HC tested, patella tested, heart and breathing tested all clear  even though she has the silly look of a pug haha









Ps sorry they are so big!!


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## love our big babies (Jan 3, 2012)

Gosh been so long since I done an update on here!!
We lost the little male at 5.5 weeks  Hydrocephalus. Was too late when spotted due to the pups being so small in size. 
So we had 2 surviving puppies, both girls and doing great.
This is one (at 6 weeks and now)... She was 146g when born and is 6 months this month and now weighs 6.8kg!! So a huge difference and she is such a happy bouncy puppy


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