# What makes a breeder a breeder - Discussion



## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Followed on from a thread but thought it could do with its own thread so the other thread could go back to what that one was about.

What is a breeder? Is it a person that breeds 1 litter or a person that breeds every year, 2 years, few years and so on.

Do you agree with only breeding to keep a pup back? If not please state why not.

Thought we could do with a bit of a discussion so please dont turn it into a slanging match. Just wanted to see everyones views.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

For me, a breeder is anyone who produces a litter of puppies.

I dont think you *have* to keep a puppy back, but I dont think you should breed unless you plan to keep a puppy back. I dont believe in breeding purely to supply a pet market, there are more than enough mongrels AND purebreds in rescue to do that. I have had a couple of litters where we ended up not keeping anything back, or running a pup on then letting it go at a few months old cos it didnt turn out. But the intention is always to keep one with my litters :thumbup:


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Yep - a breeder is *anyone* who breeds a litter -


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

anyone who breeds, ive only bred 1 litter in 10 yrs but now i am a breeder.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

As above - anyone who breeds a litter - irrespective of how the litter was conceived (i.e. planned / not planned) or what health tests have been done.

I would also breed with the intention of keeping back - but I am at the stage now whereby if a pup isn't what I need - then I may not keep - not been in that situation yet as have a dog from each litter I've bred - but yep in principle.

My two main showdogs have come from litters where the breeder has opted not to keep for all sorts of reasons - and as a novice in the ring, this makes me eternally grateful


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

There are good breeders and there are bad breeders !
In my book someone like Noushka (who I know as it happens) Would NOT be a breeder in my book! As she says ONE litter in ten year!
Done correctly!! and keeping ALL bar one pup!
But if you wanna call that a breeder then that would be the type of breeder who I would want to buy from!
Problem is breeders (or those that are passinate about their dogs to that extent ) are very thin on the ground!


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Hi anyone who breeds even 1 litter i think


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

A breeder is anyone that breeds a litter whether intentionally or by accident.

In 10 years I have bred 4 litters and have always kept at least one pup out of that litter. I may run a pup on and if it doesn't make the grade in the ring I have let them go as pets. I have 3 dogs here that I bred they are from the last 2 litters. The pups I ran on from the first two litters all went to super pet homes as 1 drew back a testicle and didn't drop it again and the other 2 were shown but were not really show dogs.

I will be mating Freyja in the next week and again plan to keep a pup just don't tell OH:arf:


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

I am a novice to dogs, but had the choice from two litters, one was a home with an accidental mating of his two springers, I know technically he had a litter, but you could tell by their whole manner he just wanted the puppies gone asap and the bitch was off to the vets to be done! I would not call something like that a breeder, personally cos i think it is derogatory to those that are 'breeders' with care and planning, not purely disposing of a mishap.

The second bred litters to keep one of the working dogs to run on either for himself or to sell to the titled landowners as fully trained, he I would call a breeder and had health checks and I would happily buy from again.

Before i knew anything at all about dogs, i thought the term breeder was purely given to people who bred litters to sell, I didnt realise the feelings that there were about breeding to continue your lines for working or showing.:closedeyes:


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Rolosmum said:


> Before i knew anything at all about dogs, i thought the term breeder was purely given to people who bred litters to sell, I didnt realise the feelings that there were about breeding to continue your lines for working or showing.:closedeyes:


that is along the lines of how I think!
If we were talking horses they would be called dealers!
Selling for financial gain! Dealers


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Jess2308 said:


> For me, a breeder is anyone who produces a litter of puppies.
> 
> I dont think you *have* to keep a puppy back, but I dont think you should breed unless you plan to keep a puppy back. I dont believe in breeding purely to supply a pet market, there are more than enough mongrels AND purebreds in rescue to do that. I have had a couple of litters where we ended up not keeping anything back, or running a pup on then letting it go at a few months old cos it didnt turn out. But the intention is always to keep one with my litters :thumbup:


I think that sums my feelings up (I am not a breeder by the way).

If people are breeding from their dogs (or any other animal) with no genuine intention of keeping one themselves, then it begs the question, why ARE they breeding? The conclusion can surely only be that they are doing it in the hope of making some cash 

Not a good enough reason to breed in my opinion. I am sure there could be lot's of other reasons bandied about, but probably more often than not excuses, rather than genuine and justifiable reasoning?

Just my thoughts ...


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I think that sums my feelings up (I am not a breeder by the way).
> 
> If people are breeding from their dogs (or any other animal) with no genuine intention of keeping one themselves, then it begs the question, why ARE they breeding? The conclusion can surely only be that they are doing it in the hope of making some cash
> 
> ...


so does that go with my theory then! calling em dealers?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> so does that go with my theory then! calling em dealers?


I'm not sure "dealers" is a word I'd use  I kind of see dealers as people who buy dogs in from breeders and sell them on!

A breeder (in my thoughts) is anyone who, well breeds a litter deliberately and routinely from their dog/s. Obviously, there are good breeders and bad breeders (and every shade in-between!)


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I'm not sure "dealers" is a word I'd use  I kind of see dealers as people who buy dogs in from breeders and sell them on!
> 
> A breeder (in my thoughts) is anyone who, well breeds a litter deliberately and routinely from their dog/s. Obviously, there are good breeders and bad breeders (and every shade in-between!)[/QUOTE)
> 
> Think I can go along with you reckoning!


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> For me, a breeder is anyone who produces a litter of puppies.
> 
> I dont think you *have* to keep a puppy back, but I dont think you should breed unless you plan to keep a puppy back. I dont believe in breeding purely to supply a pet market, there are more than enough mongrels AND purebreds in rescue to do that. I have had a couple of litters where we ended up not keeping anything back, or running a pup on then letting it go at a few months old cos it didnt turn out. But the intention is always to keep one with my litters :thumbup:


totally agree, repped ya


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> There are good breeders and there are bad breeders !
> In my book someone like Noushka (who I know as it happens) Would NOT be a breeder in my book! As she says ONE litter in ten year!
> Done correctly!! and keeping ALL bar one pup!
> But if you wanna call that a breeder then that would be the type of breeder who I would want to buy from!
> Problem is breeders (or those that are passinate about their dogs to that extent ) are very thin on the ground!


aw thank you Sue but i disagree, technically i am a breeder, i am the reason those pups were born... imo even if someone has a one off 'accidental' litter it is their fault not the dogs...if they allow the pregnancy to continue then they are also breeders( i'd call them an irresponsible breeder or a byb myself lol) it dosent matter that the litter is unplanned they cant pass off the fact that they are responsible for those puppies being born...they 'bred' them no one else.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

I just feel the term BREEDER used for ALL does not seem right somehow!
BUT a question my ickle friend! seeing as you bred your litter and then WOULD have kept all of them! does that make you a FAILED breeder!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I just feel the term BREEDER used for ALL does not seem right somehow!
> BUT a question my ickle friend! seeing as you bred your litter and then WOULD have kept all of them! does that make you a FAILED breeder!


hehe yes i failed miserably and now im knee deep in huskies:lol::lol:

still am one tho


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> that is along the lines of how I think!
> If we were talking horses they would be called dealers!
> Selling for financial gain! Dealers


Dealers are those that almost 'act as a middle man' - they don't breed the pups themselves - but buy in to sell on - it is actually a very clear definition in dog breeding / sale laws.

If they breed a litter, they are surely a breeder? Just as if a woman has a child, it is a mother - it matters not whether they are a good, bad or indifferent as a parent (well it does matter but hopefully you get my drift), they are still a mother. I can remember my daughter telling her 'real' father that his role didn't made him a dad - and no it doesn't - but biologically it does make him her father.

===============================

I don't think it is unreasonable to say someone 'used' to breed, but doesn't any more - but at the point of breeding - they were a breeder.


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Followed on from a thread but thought it could do with its own thread so the other thread could go back to what that one was about.
> 
> What is a breeder? Is it a person that breeds 1 litter or a person that breeds every year, 2 years, few years and so on.
> 
> ...


I would class a breeder as someone who intentionally puts two dogs together whether it be via an outside stud dog or their own in order to produce a litter.

If someone had one litter but it wasn't intentional and decided to go ahead with the pregnancy and whelping then I wouldn't class them as a breeder especially if it only happened just the one time and the dog or bitch was neutered afterwards.

I do and I don't agree with only breeding to keep a pup back... the intention should be there but if something happened or changed, ie if the chosen pup didn't turn out as expected and was later rehomed or if there were no suitable pups in a litter (for show or breeding) then I wouldn't hold it against someone if they decided not to keep anything back... but yes the intention should be there.

---------------------------------------------------------
There is one thing that I really don't like about the term 'breeder' and that is simply that it's too general a term and covers all types of breeder


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

It's all a bit pedantic I know  

I would not call someone who even deliberately breeds one litter a breeder. I know someone who carefully bred two litters ten years or so past, then spayed their bitch and never bred anything again. I don't look at her and consider her a "dog breeder." All her dogs (3) are neutered now and she has no intention of breeding again. I would have said she was a dog breeder at the time she was actually breeding from her bitch though!

It's like me saying I am a Registered Nurse, when actually I am no longer in the nursing profession :001_unsure:


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## kayz (Jan 18, 2009)

I'm not a breeder and doubt I ever will be. But I think anyone who has a dog(or any other animal) that has a litter is a breeder. Planned or unplanned. If it was unplanned then there are options to not continue with the pregnancy.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Why do breeders, good ones, intend to always keep one pup from the litter?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

NicoleW said:


> Why do breeders, good ones, intend to always keep one pup from the litter?


Usually to continue their breeding line, to show or both. This is in contrast to people who breed form their animals solely with the attention to sell the lot.

I think it's all about looking at the breeders motivation.

A good breeder should breed to improve health, temperament, type within their breed.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

If I was ever to breed Duke, I'd definately keep one pup, maybe two, three or all of them! He has such a fantastic temperament. 

I don't think I could sell any puppies, I'd just keep them all! When it gets to about 32 dogs I think I'd probably stop...


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I agree, anyone who breeds a litter is a breeder. That makes me a breeder even if it not was intentional, I still helped Maya raise 10 pups into the world and have still taken back any pup that for whatever reason had to find a new home.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

ayone who breeds even one litter is a breeder, accidental or intentional doesnt make any difference, if u bred a litter in the past then u WERE a breeder and when u currently or continuely are breeding a litter then u ARE a breeder.

Then there is the category of responsible/ethical/good breeder or irresponsible/unethical/bad/greedy/naive breeder.

And a litter should only be bred with the intention of keeping a pup, otherwise u only breed to supply demand and with it often have monetary gain.


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

Only having one litter or 10 litters it still makes you a breeder

I will only breed if i'm going to keep a pup back

I would take back any pup if the owner needs me too at any time


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Anyone who has a litter accidental or planned is a breeder regardless of the amount of litters.


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## JohnMorris (Oct 15, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Followed on from a thread but thought it could do with its own thread so the other thread could go back to what that one was about.
> 
> What is a breeder? Is it a person that breeds 1 litter or a person that breeds every year, 2 years, few years and so on.Do you agree with only breeding to keep a pup back? If not please state why not.
> 
> Thought we could do with a bit of a discussion so please dont turn it into a slanging match. Just wanted to see everyones views.


From the Local Authority point of view a breeder is anyone who breeds even 1 litter although obviously we don't as yet get involved until they regularly breed. I have still to continue reading this thread and see what else had been posted but wanted to post this while I remembered.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

I think anyone who breeds if it be 1 accident or 100 planned they are breeders.

When I breed Alaska I will be keeping a pup back, I plan to keep a blue merle bitch back if she has one but if she doesnt I will keep one of the others back. 

The only way I would breed and not keep one back is if something drastic happened (while Alaska was pregnant) to myself or my partner and we didnt have the time to train it at that point. However then I would give the puppy I wanted to my mother in law to look after until we were ready as shes a big influance to me.


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## Callia (Jan 14, 2009)

I think anyone that is breeding their dogs is a breeder but not sure how you could call anyone a breeder that only had one litter years ago 

I have a HUGE issue with anyone that breeds a litter just to sell and they should be called puppy mills not breeders. In my breed I have seen litters advertised before they are born and pick of litters available  It really is just done by people that are only interested in money. IMO you should never breed a litter unless you are looking to keep something yourself. There are obviously times when the litter arrives and they are the wrong sex for you to be able to keep one but to advertise them all for sale before they are even born and even take deposits is just disgusting


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Anyone that breeds a litter is a breeder, I dont see how they can be called anything else to be honest, Callia, have you thought that those breeders that are advertising before the pups are born "could" be trying to get a good waiting list together and giving themselves a little time to get to know the people before the pups leave them? although I must say I dont actually adertise, but I do let it be known that I will be having a litter in the future if people wish to try to get onto my waiting lists, and thats before the MATING has taken place, do you feel that is disgusting?

Mo


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## Callia (Jan 14, 2009)

moboyd said:


> Anyone that breeds a litter is a breeder, I dont see how they can be called anything else to be honest, Callia, have you thought that those breeders that are advertising before the pups are born "could" be trying to get a good waiting list together and giving themselves a little time to get to know the people before the pups leave them? although I must say I dont actually adertise, but I do let it be known that I will be having a litter in the future if people wish to try to get onto my waiting lists, and thats before the MATING has taken place, do you feel that is disgusting?
> 
> Mo


No, I do not think that saying you have a litter due or even planned and trying to get a waiting list together from nice families before the puppies arrive is a bad thing. In fact its very sensible for people to be able to see the adult dogs, etc before the temptation of puppies arrives BUT, these litters are actually advertised for sale and deposits are accepted via paypal for pick of litter dogs, 2nd pick of dogs, then onto the bitches right the way through 
If pick of dogs and bitches are being reserved before they are born then there can only be one reason for breeding them in the first place !!!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I do know people who breed and don't always keep a pup back, but they do keep enough of their breeding lines to continue their plans for the future. They also abide by more stringent guidelines than the ABS stipulates, so it's not always black and white, I wouldn't term these as puppy farmers, but if they kept a pup back from every litter I'd term them as hoarders.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Maybe it's just me? I'd never put a deposit down a puppy not even born, or on one a couple of weeks old. Okay I may miss out on that elusive "perfect puppy" but I want to see how my pup looks at several weeks old and have some idea of personality 

Personally I think it's one thing registering an interest, quite another to pay a deposit on an unborn pup! To be honest, it sickens me to see tiny puppies, only days old having pics put up on dog sites. It SCREAMS backyard breeder  *Yuck*


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Breeders often breed dogs for commercial gain.
I think because this is a Pet forum the people on here are primarily pet people, they are people who think of the dog and its welfare before most things, even themselves sometimes.
I do not think that all breeders are like that and I do not necessarily mean BYBs and puppy farmers.
Although it is very commendable to breed to keep a pup, what happens when the pups are all dreadful? Surely the aim is to keep a "good" pup for further breeding or showing. I feel sometimes that this "keeping a pup" may do breeds no favours at all. I also feel in order to truly breed well there needs to be lots of breeding going on, so that only the best of the best gets to breed and that leads to better dogs, whether that is best of the best health wise or for showing or having good temperaments or any other desirable trait. I feel sometimes breeders keep a pup because they feel guilty about breeding a litter and keeping a pup justifies that, where in a perfect world they would be selling all as pets and moving on to the next litter to look for a better pup. 
However saying all that, with the number of dogs in rescue anything that reduces the number of litters being bred is no bad thing.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I wouldn't term these as puppy farmers, but if they kept a pup back from every litter I'd term them as hoarders.


I have to agree. A friend of mine is a top breeder in my breed and she breeds 3 times a year, 1 she keeps back from 1 litter and the others go off to other breeders to help their lines.
I dont agree with the amount she breeds but they always have homes with other breeders.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> Surely the aim is to keep a "good" pup for further breeding or showing. I feel sometimes that this "keeping a pup" may do breeds no favours at all.


I think it's about the genuine intention to keep a pup that will improve their line that is relevant. It's obviously in no ones favour, least of all the breed, to keep and breed from "poor quality" dogs. It's about the motivation behind the desire to breed ...

That's how I view it


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Breeders often breed dogs for commercial gain.
> I feel sometimes breeders keep a pup because they feel guilty about breeding a litter and keeping a pup justifies that, where in a perfect world they would be selling all as pets and moving on to the next litter to look for a better pup.
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I have to agree. A friend of mine is a top breeder in my breed and she breeds 3 times a year, 1 she keeps back from 1 litter and the others go off to other breeders to help their lines.
> I dont agree with the amount she breeds but they always have homes with other breeders.


And the other issue is, at least these are proven dogs, most likely health tested. If your friend didn't breed three litters, someone else who's breeding plan involves bunging two dogs together, perhaps of the same breed, will step into the breach for the demand for pups. It's a big grey area, and sometimes very difficult to come to a conclusion about the integrity of individual breeders.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And the other issue is, at least these are proven dogs, most likely health tested. If your friend didn't breed three litters, someone else who's breeding plan involves bunging two dogs together, perhaps of the same breed, will step into the breach for the demand for pups. It's a big grey area, and sometimes very difficult to come to a conclusion about the integrity of individual breeders.


My friend does every health test apart from DNA. However she hip and eye tests all her dogs. Alaska's breeder got a pup from her last year.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

dexter said:


> as for commercial gain........................... why does that always keep cropping up?


It keeps popping up because to many that is what breeding is about, we can fluff it up as being all about hobbies and good intentions and no profit litters but at the very core is commercial interest, selling pups. If it was purely a hobby then people would not be charging £500+ a pup, they would be giving them away.

People spend huge amounts of cash on *real* hobbies, skiing trips, fishing trips, golf membership, sporting or other hobby type gear, football season tickets, trips abroad to watch games or to visit sights of interest, the theatre, the opera, they buy sailing dinghies, cars etc. they do not expect any money back. They definitely do not expect to make a profit. 
It is only animal breeders that demand recompense for their "hobby". only animal breeders that need money to fund their hobby, to show, to continue lines, to buy new dogs etc. That is why animal breeding is "commercial".


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> If it was purely a hobby then people would not be charging £500+ a pup, they would be giving them away.


We are not on about a jumper we are on about a living creature! You cant just give them away....Most people wont vet the new home of their golf clubs would they? So should breeders not vet homes either because its a hobby?

£500 - Health tests for mum.
£40 - Kc REG of 4 pups.
£200 stud fee.
£50 - travel fee.
£50 - flea, worming stuff.
I have done the calculations of when I breed and it will be £100 in food just for mum and pups (never mind Kai, scorcher and charlie). 
Its going to be for the average of 4 pups £200 for the eye tests of the pups.
Not to mention the vaccinations and microchips which I will to be paying for.
£150 whelping box.
£100 heating pads.
£30 on plastic covers for ALL hte carpets.
Oh and if mum needs a c-section thats more money.

Most people buy some golf clubs for a one off fee, infact then sell them on to others...so yeah. Golf clubs dont cost money to feed and certainly dont risk being abused at its new home.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Yes, I am sure you will spend a lot of money, but the point I am making is that so does a hobby person on their hobby. Not all will sell their golf clubs and there is no refund on golf club membership or golf trips away, if we continue the golf example. 
Yes, no breeder would want to not vet owners or give their pups away, but to say there is no commercial interest is wrong as the pups will be sold *for money*.

If I make clothing and tell you that I have spent £500 making 6 dresses and will sell them for £450, does that mean I am not commercial? NO it doesn't, it just means I am not very good at business. If I sold them for £1000 then that is fine I am still in a commercial business, whether I make profit or not. It is the selling that makes it commercial.
If I spend £500 making 6 dresses then give them away to friends or to charity then that is a hobby, no selling has taken place.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I would not expect a breeder to give puppies away, but I do find it all a bit money grabbing when they expect people who simply want a pet quality pedigree puppy to love, to cover their "expenses" 

I have before seen breeders state that they have paid hundreds to use their chosen stud dog, fair enough, their choice, but it's wrong to then try and pass that fee on (by adding it to their long list of expenses) when selling the pups on that don't make the grade and basically that they do not want ...

For many breeders (not all, so generalising) it seems to be all about making money or at least not being out of pocket, rather than anything else.

Lauren001, does make a very valid point about hobbies. How many of us have a hobby that doesn't cost us anything and never leaves us out of pocket :confused1: Yet when it comes to breeding dogs (and cats etc) many breeders seem to think it to be their right to break even ...

I say again, I am not suggesting pups should be given away, but I do think it's unfair for breeders to expect buyers to cover all the costs of their hobby. When they do, well then that is when, regardless of what they say, it appears their hobby is actually more of a business to them :001_unsure:


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I have before seen breeders state that they have paid hundreds to use their chosen stud dog, fair enough, their choice, but it's wrong to then try and pass that fee on (by adding it to their long list of expenses) when selling the pups on that don't make the grade and basically that they do not want ...


In my breed we have limited tri male stud dogs...
I had to pick between 3, lucky the one that suits my bitch is also the closest otherwise it would be 15 hours in the car. The one I picked is also the cheapest even though he has CCs and JW.

The cost of the stud dog is my choice after all I have Kai here that would be free to use but not right for Alaska for 2 reasons, 1) he has never been used before. 2) he needs to be fully health tested and until hes been shown I will not be using him.

Now the cost of the pups in my breed dont include stud fee's but I have told them as a cost because well who ever thinks you can make money from breeding is very poorly educated.



Amethyst said:


> Yet when it comes to breeding dogs (and cats etc) many breeders seem to think it to be their right to break even ...


I dont want to break even...I dont want to give them away because that attracts the wrong homes and not only that but gives me a poor name in my breed. 
I am not bothered if I end up £5000 out of pocket however I cant say I have improved my line if I:

1) went to a poor stud dog (a woman in the next town to me offered me to use her boy even though hes WAY to tall, not health tested and very far from breed standard).

2) skimped on things like food, vaccinations, chipping and kc reg.

3) sold them for nothing or £100 to idiots that are going to cross breed htem or abuse them.

Now that would be as far from the reason I want to breed as possible. I wouldnt be improving the line but adding more unwanted dogs by allowing them to poor quaility homes.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> well who ever thinks you can make money from breeding is very poorly educated.
> .


well, and there was me thinking i was quite well educated 

People who claim there aint no money to be made from breeding aint too honest and i would question why they feel the need to lie.

Obviously the very first litter will cost more than any following ones, and u will struggle to break even if things go wrong with certain breeds. But looking at the prices at some breeds the profit is quite high if nothing goes wrong.


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## Callia (Jan 14, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> I think it's about the genuine intention to keep a pup that will improve their line that is relevant. It's obviously in no ones favour, least of all the breed, to keep and breed from "poor quality" dogs. It's about the motivation behind the desire to breed ...
> 
> That's how I view it


Exactly :thumbup:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sorry shetland lover, not sure what you are saying in your post, probably just me a bit tired today 

I can appreciate a breeder wanting the best stud, best care for dam and pups, health testing etc. What I am trying to say that these things, just like initial cost of whelping beds, heat lamps etc should not be totted up in an attempt to justify the cost of puppies. (Don't particularly mean you, it's often done.)

Again, I think Lauren has a REAL point about those breeders who claim they breed simply as a hobby, yet do not want or maybe even expect to be out of pocket. She gives some good examples too. It seems breeding is a hobby that sometimes you make money out of a litter, sometimes you don't? 

Ultimately, whatever anyone says, the market regulates puppy prices, simple supply and demand or that's my thoughts  

The breeder (however you define them) has little really to do with it...

I dont know about Shetland Sheepdogs but I do know in some breeds, the Breed Club advises would be owners of what to "expect" to pay for pet pup from Club member. Though I know from personal experience Club members still try it on


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natik said:


> well, and there was me thinking i was quite well educated
> 
> People who claim there aint no money to be made from breeding aint too honest and i would question why they feel the need to lie.
> 
> Obviously the very first litter will cost more than any following ones, and u will struggle to break even if things go wrong with certain breeds. But looking at the prices at some breeds the profit is quite high if nothing goes wrong.


Depends if you intend to take more than one litter out of a bitch. It's difficult to make generalisations about breeding, it's easy when it's obvious, no health tests, churning out litters etc, but there is that big grey area in the middle. And if you took all the true costs of breeding, and what's involved, time, heating, washing, extra food, etc, those who don't breed very often probably will never break even, although there will be points where they are 'cash rich', they will spend more throughout the life time of their dogs than they will ever make from their dogs. And of course it's all different for different breeds, costs of health testing, litter sizes, price of pups etc, etc.


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

was meaning to quote


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Depends if you intend to take more than one litter out of a bitch. It's difficult to make generalisations about breeding, it's easy when it's obvious, no health tests, churning out litters etc, but there is that big grey area in the middle. And if you took all the true costs of breeding, and what's involved, time, heating, washing, extra food, etc, those who don't breed very often probably will never break even, although there will be points where they are 'cash rich', they will spend more throughout the life time of their dogs than they will ever make from their dogs. And of course it's all different for different breeds, costs of health testing, litter sizes, price of pups etc, etc.


I agree....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Depends if you intend to take more than one litter out of a bitch. It's difficult to make generalisations about breeding, it's easy when it's obvious, no health tests, churning out litters etc, but there is that big grey area in the middle. And if you took all the true costs of breeding, and what's involved, time, heating, washing, extra food, etc, those who don't breed very often probably will never break even, although there will be points where they are 'cash rich', they will spend more throughout the life time of their dogs than they will ever make from their dogs. And of course it's all different for different breeds, costs of health testing, litter sizes, price of pups etc, etc.


well, i counted my costs if i ever going to breed and nothing goes wrong i end up with a profit. And i intend to breed responsibly.

But then there are those who count costs in such as the bitches keeping costs for her whole lifetime, her purchase price etc etc.... if someone includes those costs than they definitly see breeding as a business and not a "hobby"


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Natik said:


> well, and there was me thinking i was quite well educated
> 
> People who claim there aint no money to be made from breeding aint too honest and i would question why they feel the need to lie.
> 
> Obviously the very first litter will cost more than any following ones, and u will struggle to break even if things go wrong with certain breeds. But looking at the prices at some breeds the profit is quite high if nothing goes wrong.


Okay here's my costs.... (and you may also check this thread too http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/102597-cost-breeding-2.html).

Lets say Alaska had 4 puppies. The average charge for a sheltie is between £650, £700. So lets say she had two girls the girls beign £700 and 2 boys being £650.

I would be keeping a bitch back. So for the sale of the 3 pups = £2000

Now my costs. (if my bitch doesnt need a c-section and all goes well)
Stud dog = £200
CEA DNA = £100
Hip score (including BVA fee's and travel) = £140
Eye test = £50
Travel to and from = £50
Scan for pregnancy = £70
Whelping box = £150.
Heating pads = £70
Food (hard food) = £100
Lactol = £200
Supplements = £50
Vet check up for pups and mum = £50
Plastic for carpets = £40
KC reg = £48
Puppy pen = £100
Toys and Beds for pups = £50
Worming and flea teatment = £50.
Vaccination = £80
Pedigree's = £30
Puppy packs = £70 (which includes toys, foods, suppliments,brush and how to train your pup guide)
Eye test for pups = £200
Vet check for pups before they leave =£40
Chipping = £40

Total of = £1,978

Thats if there is no problems with mum or ANY pups. 
If there was jack on a further £400 for c-section and overnight stay.

So if I have the "perfect" litter then I may make a profit of £22


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Shetlandlover

im not saying breeding is cheap but u can make a profit, in some breeds more than others, even if u breed responsibly.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Natik said:


> Shetlandlover
> 
> im not saying breeding is cheap but u can make a profit, in some breeds more than others, even if u breed responsibly.


In my breed you cant. Over 40% of Sheltie litters are singleton pups even though the average is 4. Alaska was 1 of 4 but the stud dog is 1 of 2.

The eye tests are every year too. Then I will have ot go through ALL the health tests again with Kai and the pup I keep back.


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

In my breed the average litter size is 1 to 3 .... and £800 for stud and keeping one pup back, i lost money... but i didn't do it for the money


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Natik said:


> well, i counted my costs if i ever going to breed and nothing goes wrong i end up with a profit. And i intend to breed responsibly.
> 
> But then there are those who count costs in such as the bitches keeping costs for her whole lifetime, her purchase price etc etc.... if someone includes those costs than they definitly see breeding as a business and not a "hobby"


I think that's a bit too general, people who count the true costs of breeding don't necessarily have it as a business :confused1:

Breeding isn't always a hobby, sometimes it's more of a vocation.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> In my breed you cant. Over 40% of Sheltie litters are singleton pups even though the average is 4. Alaska was 1 of 4 but the stud dog is 1 of 2.
> 
> The eye tests are every year too. Then I will have ot go through ALL the health tests again with Kai and the pup I keep back.


but u can with alot of other breeds, with some more with others less. 
I counted my expenses and i came up with a profit of around £600 included a c section and bred responsibly.

But then i would never include the cost of sleeping with my bitch downstair, or her purchase price or showing (cause thats a choice and MY hobby) etc


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

archielee said:


> but i didn't do it for the money


Exactly but people seem to think breeders breed for money. Infact GOOD breeders spend more and if they did make (in my case £22) it would go straight back into the dogs.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Okay here's my costs.... (and you may also check this thread too http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/102597-cost-breeding-2.html).
> 
> Lets say Alaska had 4 puppies. The average charge for a sheltie is between £650, £700. So lets say she had two girls the girls beign £700 and 2 boys being £650.
> 
> ...


and all the hidden bits like your heating bill your phone calls (on my last litter my phone bill was huge double infact) people forget all this ive had to replace so many things when the little tinkers leave


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Exactly but people seem to think breeders breed for money. Infact GOOD breeders spend more and if they did make (in my case £22) it would go straight back into the dogs.


Exactly, but you get breeders that don't care about the bitch and puppies
thats when they make a lot of money out of it


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

cav said:


> and all the hidden bits like your heating bill your phone calls (on my last litter my phone bill was huge double infact) people forget all this ive had to replace so many things when the little tinkers leave


Exactly...I have already got some money aside incase next christmas they get to the carpet.

Heating bill is another thing but I didnt want to include that and be told I am a bussiness.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

if you have 1 litter your a breeder ive also had litters that i did not keep a pup back


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

archielee said:


> Exactly, but you get breeders that don't care about the bitch and puppies
> thats when they make a lot of money out of it


Heres a byb's costs. 4 pups both same price as what I would charge.

Food (probs poor quality like wagg) £30
Kc = £48

Haha, I mean lets be honest most bad breeders wont use a stud they will either cross or buy their own. Its so easy to be cheap but that doesnt make you a good breeder.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Natik said:


> well, and there was me thinking i was quite well educated
> 
> *People who claim there aint no money to be made from breeding aint too honest and i would question why they feel the need to lie.
> *
> Obviously the very first litter will cost more than any following ones, and u will struggle to break even if things go wrong with certain breeds. But looking at the prices at some breeds the profit is quite high if nothing goes wrong.


I agree, if there was no money in it at all then why are the free-Ads full of dogs, some from well established breeders too, why would breeders pay for website presence, news paper ads and advertising in magazines? So breeders breed litter after litter for years, losing hundreds of pounds every time, pull the other one!

If dog breeding wasn't a business, then you could ask another breeder for stud service and they would let you have it for a nominal fee or even for free, as how much does it really cost to keep a stud dog?



> if they did make (in my case £22) it would go straight back into the dogs.


I think that is also an example of the flawed reasoning of breeders, a profit is a profit whether you spend it on the dogs or a manicure or a trip to the Bahamas.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Exactly...I have already got some money aside incase next christmas they get to the carpet.
> 
> Heating bill is another thing but I didnt want to include that and be told I am a bussiness.


I had a dog give birth on my bed once so yep i had to get a new one:scared:
yes i always have money put away as you will need it to cover all the costs-the only way to make loads ££££s is by cutting corners


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> I think that is also an example of the flawed reasoning of breeders, a profit is a profit whether you spend it on the dogs or a manicure or a trip to the Bahamas.


Is it really though? As Cav said I didnt include heating costs and electric bills from keeping the pups warm constantly. Seen as I rarely have the heating on in my house anyway I would see a deffinate difference in cost.

And if something was wrong with mum or pups then there would be no profit at all.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> So if I have the "perfect" litter then I may make a profit of £22


Plus you have a vaccinated, vet checked, wormed and micro-chipped bitch pup for yourself worth £700 ...

Not saying this is *wrong*, but in effect you are using your hobby to fund your hobby I guess. Or rather your puppy sales are funding your hobby, if that makes sense?

Some people will paint as a hobby and sell their paintings, or knit and sell on etsy, others will breed puppies. I guess the breeding of dogs is the one where there is the most potential to both make ... and lose money!

Certainly if you breed again, your costs may not be so significant as you will already have pens, heat pats, whelping box. I doubt you will need to do health tests on dam again either? Have just seen eye test is yearly in another post!

Anyway, thank you for your input, you sound as though your pups will be well raised


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Certainly if you breed again, your costs may not be so significant as you will already have pens, heat pats, whelping box. I doubt you will need to do health tests on dam again either?
> 
> Anyway, thank you for your input, you sound as though your pups will be well raised




We have to eye test Dam and sire every year.

Yes maybe the following time I will be lucky but the more you breed a bitch the more chance there is something will go wrong.

Its purely false to think that just because you breed you make money or do it to make money.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

archielee said:


> Exactly, but you get breeders that don't care about the bitch and puppies
> thats when they make a lot of money out of it


excuse me, i care for my bitch but still it doesnt change the fact that i would end up with a profit, and its alot of money imo
But im not going to lie about it and hide it from people and pretend that i just broke even if i would breed.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

alot of breeders are unemployed also, cause they spend alot of their time with the dogs and puppies, i wonder how they cover all those expenses if there are such losses to be made.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> We have to eye test Dam and sire every year.
> 
> Yes maybe the following time I will be lucky but the more you breed a bitch the more chance there is something will go wrong.
> 
> Its purely false to think that just because you breed you make money or do it to make money.


I realised about eye test 

But I am right, you did not include the fact that in the scnenario you gave, that although you might only make £22 profit, you would also have a bitch pup "worth" £700? Hope I didn't misread that!


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I realised about eye test
> 
> But I am right, you did not include the fact that in the scnenario you gave, that although you might only make £22 profit, you would also have a bitch pup "worth" £700? Hope I didn't misread that!


In reality not really...because if I didnt keep a pup back I would go to another breeder to get a bitch also spending £700. As I want my line to start from two bitches though prefaired to be from Alaska.

If I didnt breed I wouldnt need another bitch nor would I need to health test or spend any of that money.


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## susieborder (Jul 23, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> We are not on about a jumper we are on about a living creature! You cant just give them away....Most people wont vet the new home of their golf clubs would they? So should breeders not vet homes either because its a hobby?
> 
> £500 - Health tests for mum.
> £40 - Kc REG of 4 pups.
> ...


Do you offset all the above on the end of year tax return or just some, eg, whelping box, heated pads, plastic covers, surely these things are reusable?


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> excuse me, i care for my bitch but still it doesnt change the fact that i would end up with a profit, and its alot of money imo
> But im not going to lie about it and hide it from people and pretend that i just broke even if i would breed.


I was not talking about you Natik


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Natik said:


> alot of breeders are unemployed also, cause they spend alot of their time with the dogs and puppies, i wonder how they cover all those expenses if there are such losses to be made.


That a dig at me love? 

And yes I dont work but it isnt because I spend all my time with the dogs its because I am a full time carer for my OH (who has autism and M.E) and mum (Who has pnuemonia, thrombosis and diabetes).

God if only I could sit on my arse all day with the dogs...that would be bliss. Instead I make sure the house doesnt burn down, and have to help my mother inject herself and not bleed to death.

Lucky my dad is "loaning" me the money for breeding but he wants the money back from the sales of the puppies.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

susieborder said:


> Do you offset all the above on the end of year tax return or just some, eg, whelping box, heated pads, plastic covers, surely these things are reusable?


Whelping box is adviced not to be re-used. Same for plastic covers.

Have you ever smelt a whelping box after birth? 

I wont be re-using whelping boxes because of risk of infection even bleched down its best to get a new one. Plastic covers are the same.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> That a dig at me love?
> 
> .


i dont know u and dont know nothing about u.
Just making a point in general 
Wasnt even meant in a bad way lol


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Natik said:


> i dont know u and dont know nothing about.
> Just making a point in general


Fair enough. :arf:

I agree some breeders dont work however every breeder I know works Apart from 1 that makes a living off breeding so much so they have a big house in 30 achers of land.

However they do have 77 dogs and have 3 litters at a time. They also sell them un-endorsed, without a puppy back, un-vaccinated and un-micro chipped. They also dont use whelping boxes but re-use crates.


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Fair enough. :arf:
> 
> I agree some breeders dont work however every breeder in my breed i know of works. Apart from 1 that makes a living off breeding so much so they have a big house in 30 achers of land.
> 
> However they do have 77 dogs and have 3 litters at a time. They also sell them un-endorsed, without a puppy back, un-vaccinated and un-micro chipped. They also dont use whelping boxes but re-use crates.


I would be carefull what you say about breeders on a open forum hun
i am not being funny, but i would hate it coming back to you  saying thinks about them


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

archielee said:


> I would be carefull what you say about breeders on a open forum hun
> i am not being funny, but i would hate it coming back to you  saying thinks about them


Dont worry there are alot of breeders out there that do that so It could be any one of them. 
Then again look at most byb's they dont have any costs really. :|

Archielee, have you ever come across breeders sending hteir bitch to another breeder to give birth? I didnt know people did that until amonth ago.


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Dont worry there are alot of breeders out there that do that so It could be any one of them.
> Then again look at most byb's they dont have any costs really. :|
> 
> Archielee, have you ever come across breeders sending hteir bitch to another breeder to give birth? I didnt know people did that until amonth ago.


Oh ok


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> In reality not really...because if I didnt keep a pup back I would go to another breeder to get a bitch also spending £700. As I want my line to start from two bitches though prefaired to be from Alaska.
> 
> If I didnt breed I wouldnt need another bitch nor would I need to health test or spend any of that money.


But ultimately, you will have a hopeful bitch pup from Alaska, funded from the sale of the rest of her litter. Whichever way you look at it the puppy you keep has to be seen as part of the "profit" from your litter. The fact that you would choose to spend the same amount on another puppy (if you chose not to keep any) really doesn't come into it. If you look at things logically 

Sell all the pups and that takes you to £722 profit. Whether you choose to spend it on another Sheltie pup, a holiday or bank it. It's still a profit you have made on your litter.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I have no doubt Shetlandlover's pups will be well raised but I still do not think she appreciates the core of commercialness that is in dog breeding.

She is coming out with this and that expense but that means so little, because it is mostly funded by the product of the mating, which are the pups. 
The pups *will be sold*, hence makes this a commercial venture.

If I sell biscuits, does the public care a damn whether I have incurred this or that cost, no, because I have set myself up as a trader and all that matters is the final quality and price of the biscuits.
Dog breeders are traders, whether they spend £300 or £3000 on dog treats or heating or lighting or dog coats or fancy collars or every health test under the sun. 
The pups are a saleable item to be traded for a price and dog breeding is therefore a commercial venture.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> It keeps popping up because to many that is what breeding is about, we can fluff it up as being all about hobbies and good intentions and no profit litters but at the very core is commercial interest, selling pups. If it was purely a hobby then people would not be charging £500+ a pup, they would be giving them away.
> 
> People spend huge amounts of cash on *real* hobbies, skiing trips, fishing trips, golf membership, sporting or other hobby type gear, football season tickets, trips abroad to watch games or to visit sights of interest, the theatre, the opera, they buy sailing dinghies, cars etc. they do not expect any money back. They definitely do not expect to make a profit.
> It is only animal breeders that demand recompense for their "hobby". only animal breeders that need money to fund their hobby, to show, to continue lines, to buy new dogs etc. That is why animal breeding is "commercial".


if only lmao............ one litter in 5 years . funds a showing hobby , lol if only ...................


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

I've not had a litter of pups but I had a litter of hamsters not long ago. I guess that makes me a breeder. People ask how much I made. I can honestly say I didn't make a penny. I had to buy a new cage that was big enough for 12 hamsters, food, fresh veg, bedding, vet bills for health checks and petrol for going to the vet. I hated the thought of making a profit so I asked the new owners just to give a donation and I would buy a pile of stuff to donate to a rescue centre for Christmas. The going price for a hamster is probaly £5 but they all gave me £10 so I got alot of stuff. Sent them pictures of what I'd bought to donate. They all thought it was a really nice thing to do and I get updates of my babies all the time! 

If I was to have a litter of pups I'd of course ask the set price for my breed but I can't see me wanting to keep the profit.. I'd probaly end up giving it to a rescue because I just don't like the thought of making profit from animals 

I know of some breeders who don't work as such but they have lots of dogs, run kennels/caterys and grooming salons so thats how they make their money.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I have no doubt Shetlandlover's pups will be well raised but I still do not think she appreciates the core of commercialness that is in dog breeding.
> 
> She is coming out with this and that expense but that means so little, because it is mostly funded by the product of the mating, which are the pups.
> The pups *will be sold*, hence makes this a commercial venture.
> ...


If you're talking about commercial breeders, your figures would be accurate. However, any breeder who has the future of the breed and their lines as priority (ie a RESPONSIBLE breeder) will be proving their breeding dogs in either showing or working before having pups.

Now, I cant speak for working costs, but I know that we spent well over £10000 on showing last year (including entries fees, petrol, equipment etc etc), offset that against the "profit" from the one litter of puppies we've had, which will end up being about £1000 as we were lucky and had no complications with this litter. So you can see that breeding doesnt actually come near to covering costs unless you are breeding an awful lot of litters.

ETA: Also every penny of "profit" we make from breeding the dogs is immediately put back into their care and showing, we dont actually use any of that money for ourselves. We have to work to have spends


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## miti999 (Mar 19, 2009)

> I dont think you have to keep a puppy back, but I dont think you should breed unless you plan to keep a puppy back. I dont believe in breeding purely to supply a pet market, there are more than enough mongrels AND purebreds in rescue to do that. I have had a couple of litters where we ended up not keeping anything back, or running a pup on then letting it go at a few months old cos it didnt turn out. But the intention is always to keep one with my litters


I would love to raise a litter of puppies!

I'm not interested in any money I may or may not make out of them.

I don't show either but if my bitch is good enough I would love her to have a litter.

Yes if you want a dog, your local rescue is a good place to start.

But not everyone wants a dog from the rescue which in the main seem to be staffs, greyhounds, lurchers etc.

So I am saying, what's wrong with someone such as myself taking my bitch to the stud and fingers crossed raising a litter of puppies (the hobby breeder)?

I know the risks and yes I would have to think hard about whether I was prepared to take the risk - but what a wonderful experience it would be if all goes well.

Where's that book Tanya?


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

miti999 said:


> I would love to raise a litter of puppies!
> 
> I'm not interested in any money I may or may not make out of them.
> 
> ...


Because there are more than enough dogs out there available from breeders who have shown/worked their dogs to _know_ that they are good enough quality, have health tested them and are producing quality puppies consistently.

I have bought from "hobby" breeders as, in the most recent incidence, we knew more about the breed than the breeder :lol: and could see that he had produced a very nice quality pup suitable for the show ring. He had health tested and was keeping a pup back for himself (the reason he had the litter) so he wasnt doing it for a bit of cash like many do, but its still not ideal.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wow, moved on! I've never seen an ad from what I'd term as a reputable breeder in the free ads, there's a VAST difference between an established breeder, and someone who breeds ethically.

And NONE of the breeders that I know that I would describe as ethical are unemployed, all have jobs, although a couple are retired now, they still breed to carry on their lines and either work or compete with their dogs in some way.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> If you're talking about commercial breeders, your figures would be accurate. However, any breeder who has the future of the breed and their lines as priority (ie a RESPONSIBLE breeder) will be proving their breeding dogs in either showing or working before having pups.
> 
> Now, I cant speak for working costs, but I know that we spent well over £10000 on showing last year (including entries fees, petrol, equipment etc etc), offset that against the "profit" from the one litter of puppies we've had, which will end up being about £1000 as we were lucky and had no complications with this litter. So you can see that breeding doesnt actually come near to covering costs unless you are breeding an awful lot of litters.
> 
> ETA: Also every penny of "profit" we make from breeding the dogs is immediately put back into their care and showing, we dont actually use any of that money for ourselves. We have to work to have spends


I am amazed at how many bleat on about showing costs, about ploughing money back into dogs. How many more times do I need to say it. All that is immaterial. No-one cares about how much or how little you spend on your dogs, the point is that money changes hands FOR THE PUPS, which makes it a commercial venture whether you are ethical or not or whether you have 1 dog, 6 dogs or sixty.

I am amazed also at the language on here re breeding we have "offsetting", "costs", "profit", "margins", "expenses", "purchase price" break even". 
All good "hobby" words, NOT.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I am amazed at how many bleat on about showing costs, about ploughing money back into dogs. How many more times do I need to say it. All that is immaterial. No-one cares about how much or how little you spend on your dogs, the point is that money changes hands FOR THE PUPS, which makes it a commercial venture whether you are ethical or not or whether you have 1 dog, 6 dogs or sixty.
> 
> I am amazed also at the language on here re breeding we have "offsetting", "costs", "profit", "margins", "expenses", "purchase price" break even".
> All good "hobby" words, NOT.


I'm sorry but there is a VAST difference between a puppy farmer who bungs any number of dogs together to make a profit and does b*gga all to ensure their dogs are good examples or proven in any respect, to someone who shows, competes or works their dogs, spending great amounts of time and money and breeds good examples of a breed.


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

If you think breeding etc isn't really a hobby then do you think it would be right to give dogs from great lines etc away for free? Imagine the sorts of people that would be after them. Even good people would come forward who can't really afford a dog.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry but there is a VAST difference between a puppy farmer who bungs any number of dogs together to make a profit and does b*gga all to ensure their dogs are good examples or proven in any respect, to someone who shows, competes or works their dogs, spending great amounts of time and money and breeds good examples of a breed.


Oh please......, we are all aware of what makes a good breeder, we get it every day. 
However ALL breeders are engaged in a commercial venture as they are *selling pups*, whether they make a profit or not is immaterial, whether they attend shows or working dog trials or not, whether they are ethical or not.
Commerce is the buying and selling of goods. As soon as they put a price on the pup and accept the money into their hot little hands they have entered the commercial world. We can gloss it over, but the pups as soon as they are given a value and money is accepted for them, are "goods" pure and simple.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Oh please......, we are all aware of what makes a good breeder, we get it every day.
> However ALL breeders are engaged in a commercial venture as they are *selling pups*, whether they make a profit or not is immaterial, whether they attend shows or working dog trials or not, whether they are ethical or not.
> Commerce is the buying and selling of goods. As soon as they put a price on the pup and accept the money into their hot little hands they have entered the commercial world. We can gloss it over, but the pups as soon as they are given a value and money is accepted for them, are "goods" pure and simple.


Yes, pups are sold, but you're very naieve if you feel a commercial venture shouldn't include costs incurred in the promotion of those goods. Call it what ever you like, a business, hobby, vocation, but some people put a lot more thought, effort, money, and time (which equates to money in a very real sense if you have to stop working to look after pups) - but you're saying they can't include these costs which are more considerable, than those of a puppy farmer. Oh please


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

What surprises me here is the fact that people that see themselves as breeders (planning to keep a pup to continue their lines etc), seem to want anyone who has a litter whether accidental or a one off to try and make a bit of money, quite likes their pet and sees it as an easy way to get another etc, to me this denegrates their role as responsible compared to the accidental one off litters, and I would not be wanting those people called breeders. They then moan about these 'breeders' giving the proper breeders a bad name, so why push to call them it.

I use a similar thing in that i am a childminder, fully registered with ofsted etc and take a pride in my job and commitment, there are other people that provide childcare on the quiet for money, and call themselves childminders, the 'real' childminders do not like this because of the work time and effort we put into our profession, so we want them known as something else, recognising our effort and their lack of it, rather than them being known the same as us and us moaning about them.

To me breeders would be better protecting the term for those that are ethical and letting the others be unnamed, byb or pf etc, rather than using for any litter bred for whatever reason.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

The term 'breeder' applies to anyone who has brought a litter into this world, regardless of whether intentional or accidental, for good or bad, for love or profit ro any other reason. It simply acknowledges the person who owns a bitch and has made the decision and is responsible for a litter being born.



> It's all a bit pedantic I know
> 
> I would not call someone who even deliberately breeds one litter a breeder. I know someone who carefully bred two litters ten years or so past, then spayed their bitch and never bred anything again. I don't look at her and consider her a "dog breeder."


Just to be pedantic  she was the 'breeder' of those two litters? If not, who was? She may not breed now and therefore, not an active breeder, but she was a breeder and if the pups from that litter are still around is the breeder of those pups.



> to me this denegrates their role as responsible compared to the accidental one off litters, and I would not be wanting those people called breeders.


But being a breeder is not an accolade to be looked up to so therefore it cannot be denigrated. There are good breeders, bad breeders and everything in between. The term does not reflect the quality of the breeder or the reasons for breeding. It is simply the term used to refer to the person responsible for bringing a litter of pups into the world.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> To me breeders would be better protecting the term for those that are ethical and letting the others be unnamed, byb or pf etc, rather than using for any litter bred for whatever reason.


I can't see that being possible as there are so many different kinds of breeders and so many different reasons for breeding. As I said in my previous post, it is a term used to indicate who is responsible for the litter being born. It obviously doesn't apply to non-registered dogs, but if you register a litter the name of the breeder is required. It matters not, whether they have bred one litter or ten, whether it was intentional or accidental. They are still the breeder.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> I am amazed also at the language on here re breeding we have "offsetting", "costs", "profit", "margins", "expenses", "purchase price" break even".
> All good "hobby" words, NOT.


I have never ever said I was a hobby breeder because I am not...my dogs are not my hobby they are part of me. I dont know what word to use but I dont class it as a hobby or a job. I want to do it because I want to better the line and help produce health pups for people looking for a dog in my breed.

Costs is a word used for pretty much everything. For example my OH's brother is a wanna be pro golfer...went out bought some clubs cost £3000 he says to me "Those clubs cost me way to much when I started out no one told me of these costs I thought clubs were cheap".

Or how many parents make the passing comment of how much children cost? :lol::lol:

My OH's brother sells his golf clubs on once he has finnished with them, like he did with his skates and like his dad did with his collectors train set.

If I and other breeders wanted to we could skimp on the good food and vaccinations, whelping boxes, hell even save £40+ on kc reg but we dont. We are happy to spend and if people bred for profit is that why most of the good breeders on here would be prepaired to keep a whole litter if no good homes came up? Doesnt sound like a group of people who are in it for money.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes, pups are sold, but you're very naieve if you feel a commercial venture shouldn't include costs incurred in the promotion of those goods. Call it what ever you like, a business, hobby, vocation, but some people put a lot more thought, effort, money, and time (which equates to money in a very real sense if you have to stop working to look after pups) - but you're saying they can't include these costs which are more considerable, than those of a puppy farmer. Oh please


No-one says they cannot include costs in business, but to deny that breeding is a business, by making the excuse of costs and the lack of profit is not correct.
If I make clothes and spend every last penny I make or get for my clothes, on new machinery for my factory I cannot then say I have a hobby because I have made nothing for myself, which is what in effect breeders are saying
Whether I have a sweat shop or a legitimate business, I still do not have a hobby, as I make and sell clothes, just as breeders produce and sell pups.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I have never ever said I was a hobby breeder because I am not...my dogs are not my hobby they are part of me. I dont know what word to use but I dont class it as a hobby or a job. I want to do it because I want to better the line and help produce health pups for people looking for a dog in my breed.
> 
> If I and other breeders wanted......


In the interests of explanation and nothing meant in it.... your are NOT a breeder. You may hope to be one day, and you may be planning to be, but you have not yet brought a litter into this world so you are not yet a breeder.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> In the interests of explanation and nothing meant in it.... your are NOT a breeder. You may hope to be one day, and you may be planning to be, but you have not yet brought a litter into this world so you are not yet a breeder.


Very true...

Okay I hope to be a breeder in teh near future but I will not be classing myself as a hobby breeder.

I have brought litters into the world but they werent mine.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> No-one says they cannot include costs in business, but to deny that breeding is a business, by making the excuse of costs and the lack of profit is not correct.
> If I make clothes and spend every last penny I make or get for my clothes, on new machinery for my factory I cannot then say I have a hobby because I have made nothing for myself, which is what in effect breeders are saying
> Whether I have a sweat shop or a legitimate business, I still do not have a hobby, as I make and sell clothes, just as breeders produce and sell pups.


Ok, so if you admit it's a 'business' and that all associated costs should be included, it's very easy to show responsible breeders run at a substantial loss. They may have times where they are cash rich, but they pay out more over the long term. Just because an ethical breeder may sell a litter of pups and have some money to hand at that point in time, does not make it a profitable business, of any kind.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Okay I hope to be a breeder in teh near future but I will not be classing myself as a hobby breeder.


Sorry, I wasn't trying to correct you - just using it to illustrate a point


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Very true...
> 
> Okay I hope to be a breeder in teh near future but I will not be classing myself as a hobby breeder.
> 
> I have brought litters into the world but they werent mine.


Why not? I will be, there's nothing wrong unless your interpretation of a hobby breeder is something a bit more dubious than mine?


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok, so if you admit it's a 'business' and that all associated costs should be included, it's very easy to show responsible breeders run at a substantial loss. They may have times where they are cash rich, but they pay out more over the long term. Just because an ethical breeder may sell a litter of pups and have some money to hand at that point in time, does not make it a profitable business, of any kind.


Wow good post......Rep coming your way.

Just to point out if its a business then surely the cost of getting the bitch in the first place, the cost of owning the bitch, the insurance and so on would be included too? Not to mention the breeders hours of watching mum and pups to make sure nothing goes wrong?

In "business" terms any breeder would be far more out of pocket.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Why not? I will be, there's nothing wrong unless your interpretation of a hobby breeder is something a bit more dubious than mine?


As I said I dont see my dogs as a hobby but a part of me....I dont know what I can say it as...I dont mind being refaired to as a hobby breeder but its not a hobby its my way of life.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Sorry, I wasn't trying to correct you - just using it to illustrate a point


No problem my love. :arf:

I have helped bring 39 litters into the world...(thats dogs and cats not small animals) just they have never been mine. I get the blood and icky bits and the owner gets the hugs and puppy dog eyes.


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Anyone who has a litter is a breeder in my eyes.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> For me, a breeder is anyone who produces a litter of puppies.
> 
> I dont think you *have* to keep a puppy back, but I dont think you should breed unless you plan to keep a puppy back. I dont believe in breeding purely to supply a pet market, there are more than enough mongrels AND purebreds in rescue to do that. I have had a couple of litters where we ended up not keeping anything back, or running a pup on then letting it go at a few months old cos it didnt turn out. But the intention is always to keep one with my litters :thumbup:


Totally agree! Although its a shame most prats can class them selves as breeders.. You get breeders and then you get BREEDERS - A fine line there is to!
So far mum will have made a £850 loss with our current litter. we shall not be keeping the puppy from the litter due to the complications that occured - not the sort of pup we would want to add back to a breeding programme, he has a wonderful pet home waiting.. we bred with the aim of keeping a pup, and the stud owner having one to. The stud owner will now take cash instead of a pup and the fee is more than the price of the pup.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> As I said I dont see my dogs as a hobby but a part of me....I dont know what I can say it as...I dont mind being refaired to as a hobby breeder but its not a hobby its my way of life.


Not meant as an insult in any way, my view of a hobby breeder, is someone who doesn't necessarily need to breed, perhaps they're getting into breeding for the first time, but they could just as well buy in dogs for now, rather than breed their own. But then, we all have to start somewhere, and it's the intent behind each breeder that makes them different, unfortunately, there's no such thing as an integrity monitor :lol:


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I am amazed at how many bleat on about showing costs, about ploughing money back into dogs. How many more times do I need to say it. All that is immaterial. No-one cares about how much or how little you spend on your dogs, the point is that money changes hands FOR THE PUPS, which makes it a commercial venture whether you are ethical or not or whether you have 1 dog, 6 dogs or sixty.
> 
> I am amazed also at the language on here re breeding we have "offsetting", "costs", "profit", "margins", "expenses", "purchase price" break even".
> All good "hobby" words, NOT.


What a wonderful attitude you have  Very rude person.

I used the word "profit" as you were talking about breeding as a business (which im sure none of us on here do it as) so i was trying to put it in terms you'd understand, i thought the quotation marks would go some way to explaining that, but clearly not.

But as S_L said, in your analogy of breeding as a business then my "offsetting" of the show costs is something that we take into consideration in the "business" of dog showing.

But I think we're all wasting our time arguing with you, you certainly seem like one of those high and mighty know it alls who will argue black is white because you *KNOW* it is


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I am amazed at how many bleat on about showing costs, about ploughing money back into dogs. How many more times do I need to say it. All that is immaterial. No-one cares about how much or how little you spend on your dogs, the point is that money changes hands FOR THE PUPS, which makes it a commercial venture whether you are ethical or not or whether you have 1 dog, 6 dogs or sixty.
> 
> I am amazed also at the language on here re breeding we have "offsetting", "costs", "profit", "margins", "expenses", "purchase price" break even".
> All good "hobby" words, NOT.


The showing costs count - you are promoting your lines and your dogs! 
Yes money changes hands, and some breeders make a profit on some litters and loss on others - your point is? Should they feel bad that the pups they so ethically brought up, and found 5star homes were sold and money changed hands? Breeding is not a business until you are breeding for a LIVING - LIVING of puppy sales money - something no ethical breeder I know is like!! btw are you anti showing?


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not meant as an insult in any way, my view of a hobby breeder, is someone who doesn't necessarily need to breed, perhaps they're getting into breeding for the first time, but they could just as well buy in dogs for now, rather than breed their own. But then, we all have to start somewhere, and it's the intent behind each breeder that makes them different, unfortunately, there's no such thing as an integrity monitor :lol:


I'm not a normal person...If I am honest with you I am 21 years old this month and I have never been to a night club I dont really drink and have never smoked or done drugs. All I ever wanted to do was help animals and breed shelties, I grew up with a friend who had both shelties and rough collies. I wanted a pug first off but the health issues put me off.

My friends ditched me long ago because I refused to try their latest drug and go on their next bender because I would much rather remember the night than end up alsleep on a park bench somewhere.

Anyway I was lucky we found a breeder that knew our intentions from day 1 and although she was unhappy at first as we lived close together and she initally intended to keep Alaska back for herself shes since been a star.

We have a great line and sadly the line had issues when the lady who started it passed away. Since then the line has had very few litters and are trying to get it to what it used to be. The stud is a great dog and has been used to Alaska's sister with great results which gives hope to the line.

I would much rather have my own line going than just keep going out buying them, me and Alaska's breeder are working closesly with 2 other breeders who got the line passed to them after the lady died.

Most 20 year olds have drinking or going away as their thing. Mines my dogs.
There are very few breeders in shelties that do ALL the health tests..I am going to pride myself as being one of the few.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Plus you have a vaccinated, vet checked, wormed and micro-chipped bitch pup for yourself worth £700 ...
> 
> Not saying this is *wrong*, but in effect you are using your hobby to fund your hobby I guess. Or rather your puppy sales are funding your hobby, if that makes sense?


I wish - on my last litter - I made a loss of around £1K - take my own puppy into consideration and I STILL made a loss of around £500 - ah - but I did get my own pup microchipped for free thanks to my vets discount on doing the whole litter.

Fund my hobby - that's a d*mn joke if ever I heard one.

An open show entry for 3 or 4 dogs - c£25 - plus travel

A CH show entry for 2 or 3 dogs - c£100 - plus travel.

Gundog training - £25 a session.

I probably do around 20 CH shows a year and around 30 open shows - you do the sums if you think the 'breeding profits' fund the hobby 

In addition, we have

Insurance
Vaccinations 
Food

I can make more working in two weeks than the total sale of a litter - anyone who thinks then that breeding a litter on that basis is done for profit is seriously deluded.

I have already covered all the costs I have to lay out when breeding - the price of a pup is set before you even mate the bitch - and remains the same whether you have 1 or 10 pups, whether you have a C-Section or a normal birth.

I've sold 16 pup in FOUR years - that's roughly equal to what I earn in about 6 weeks so yes - I do it for the money  get a grip - I can only assume Maths wasn't high on the agenda of anyone who can produce a profit from producing litters in a breed that needs considerable number of health tests beforehand and does everything properly.

Why do we do it? to improve lines - to see our dogs succeed in working and show - because many of us live, breath, eat and sleep our dogs - not just for showing - but 365 24x7.

It's been my passion since before I could walk - and I waited over 40 years to follow my passion for myself - the first time in my life I've had a hobby for me - so I make no apologies if that's how I want to spend MY money - but please don't make assumptions about something you clearly have very little knowledge about - i.e. breeding responsibly and the associated costs.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Give up Swarthy most that have that opinion have never been apart of breeding themselves!  says it all as far as im concerned against them with years of first hand experience!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Give up Swarthy most that have that opinion have never been apart of breeding themselves!  says it all as far as im concerned against them with years of first hand experience!


i agree. not worth wasting our time on muppets i'm off to LKA tomorrow to enjoy my hobby NOT funded by puppy sales.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I am amazed at how many bleat on about showing costs, about ploughing money back into dogs. How many more times do I need to say it. All that is immaterial. No-one cares about how much or how little you spend on your dogs, the point is that money changes hands FOR THE PUPS, which makes it a commercial venture whether you are ethical or not or whether you have 1 dog, 6 dogs or sixty.
> 
> I am amazed also at the language on here re breeding we have "offsetting", "costs", "profit", "margins", "expenses", "purchase price" break even".
> All good "hobby" words, NOT.


anything to do with breeding AMAZES you ...................judging by the number of threads you hijack .


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

dexter said:


> i agree. not worth wasting our time on muppets i'm off to LKA tomorrow to enjoy my hobby NOT funded by puppy sales.


Oooh - good luck - I missed the closing date


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

swarthy said:


> Oooh - good luck - I missed the closing date


thanks. never been to LKA ever lol i always avoid winter long distance shows.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

dexter said:


> i agree. not worth wasting our time on muppets i'm off to LKA tomorrow to enjoy my hobby NOT funded by puppy sales.


Have a brilliant time, I like the venue! Best of luck!  couldnt make it this year!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

dexter said:


> thanks. never been to LKA ever lol i always avoid winter long distance shows.


I take it it's a free entry, with a refund on travelling expenses for you to be going


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I take it it's a free entry, with a refund on travelling expenses for you to be going


 :lol: :lol:

A friend and I did a Scottish show last year - with entry and travel costs - - between us - it cost around £400 WITHOUT accommodation.

We left home at 11pm - did the show and drove home, getting back around 1am the following day - dead glamorous profit making hobby LMAO :lol:

And for what exactly? a piece of card, and if you are lucky a judge's write up - and a rosette if you are even luckier :lol:

My dad - god rest his soul - was adamant I was certifiable - and probably right - but I LOVE it - and more importantly, so do the dogs


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

swarthy said:


> :lol: :lol:
> 
> A friend and I did a Scottish show last year - with entry and travel costs - - between us - it cost around £400 WITHOUT accommodation.
> 
> ...


I hope you're not in it for the profit then, otherwise it just proves your Dad right!! Bless him


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I hope you're not in it for the profit then, otherwise it just proves your Dad right!! Bless him


Lol - the previous year - we did two scottish shows in a month both with overnight accommodation - total cost around £1200 between us - it's terrifying when you actually say it


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Lol - the previous year - we did two scottish shows in a month both with overnight accommodation - total cost around £1200 between us - it's terrifying when you actually say it


where the heck did you stay! I did many shows at the SECC and staying on site at the crown plaza or the city inn cost nowhere near that!


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Showing your dog is not necessary to breeding, so IMO the costs of showing don't come into it. Yes it a good breeder will show their dogs as widely as possible ect, but they don't have to do it. People do make money from breeding, maybe not everytime they breed or maybe not in certain breeds but the majority of people will, I don't think thats what matters, what matters to me is what happens to that money. If it goes on a two week holiday in the sun or a fancy new kitchen then that says alot about the breeder imo. If it goes towards importing a new dog into the country, therefore bringing in new lines and widening the gene pool ect or if it goes on building better kennels or ect (in other words if it goes back into the dog or the breed) then that's the kind of people I want to be buying a puppy from. What makes a breeder a breeder is breeding a litter, i thought that much was ovbious. It's what makes a good breeder and a bad breeder that matters in my opinion. x


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Showing your dog is not necessary to breeding, so IMO the costs of showing don't come into it. Yes it a good breeder will show their dogs as widely as possible ect, but they don't have to do it. People do make money from breeding, maybe not everytime they breed or maybe not in certain breeds but the majority of people will, I don't think thats what matters, what matters to me is what happens to that money. If it goes on a two week holiday in the sun or a fancy new kitchen then that says alot about the breeder imo. If it goes towards importing a new dog into the country, therefore bringing in new lines and widening the gene pool ect or if it goes on building better kennels or ect (in other words if it goes back into the dog or the breed) then that's the kind of people I want to be buying a puppy from. What makes a breeder a breeder is breeding a litter, i thought that much was ovbious. It's what makes a good breeder and a bad breeder that matters in my opinion. x


Do you know what?
I agree with you 200%
I don't think that there will EVER be a breeder on this earth that will convince me that they don't make no money out of it! Unless that is they are as Daft as Noush and keep the whole damb litter!

edited to add! let me just rephrase that and say ! the MAJORITY of breeders and assuming that the delivery is straight forward!


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Showing your dog is not necessary to breeding, so IMO the costs of showing don't come into it. Yes it a good breeder will show their dogs as widely as possible ect, but they don't have to do it. People do make money from breeding, maybe not everytime they breed or maybe not in certain breeds but the majority of people will, I don't think thats what matters, what matters to me is what happens to that money. If it goes on a two week holiday in the sun or a fancy new kitchen then that says alot about the breeder imo. If it goes towards importing a new dog into the country, therefore bringing in new lines and widening the gene pool ect or if it goes on building better kennels or ect (in other words if it goes back into the dog or the breed) then that's the kind of people I want to be buying a puppy from. What makes a breeder a breeder is breeding a litter, i thought that much was ovbious. It's what makes a good breeder and a bad breeder that matters in my opinion. x


So you think its ok to breed from any old dog regardless of whether it has been proven of good enough quality to contribute to the gene pool? Wonderful 

Any breeder with any sense will make sure to have their dogs assessed as thoroughly as possible (be it showing OR working) before ever contemplating taking a litter from them. How can you know if your dogs are any good without getting a professional outside opinion of them?

ETA: I think you will find that it is only really the show/working people who will import new dogs into the country to improve their lines and the gene pool as a whole. Without these breeders most of the breeds we have around today would have died out completely.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Jess2308 said:


> So you think its ok to breed from any old dog regardless of whether it has been proven of good enough quality to contribute to the gene pool? Wonderful
> 
> Any breeder with any sense will make sure to have their dogs assessed as thoroughly as possible (be it showing OR working) before ever contemplating taking a litter from them. How can you know if your dogs are any good without getting a professional outside opinion of them?
> 
> ETA: I think you will find that it is only really the show/working people who will import new dogs into the country to improve their lines and the gene pool as a whole. Without these breeders most of the breeds we have around today would have died out completely.


where did they say any old dog! I read it that the show expenditure should not be deducted from the gross profit!


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Jess2308 said:


> So you think its ok to breed from any old dog regardless of whether it has been proven of good enough quality to contribute to the gene pool? Wonderful
> 
> Any breeder with any sense will make sure to have their dogs assessed as thoroughly as possible (be it showing OR working) before ever contemplating taking a litter from them. How can you know if your dogs are any good without getting a professional outside opinion of them?


No i clearly don't - i show my dogs . & i'm not the only one who says that you don't have to trudge up and down to championship shows all over the country to breed, therefore the costs aren't included - i can give you a few top breeders who i've had similar conversations with . it seperates the good breeders from the bad breeders, but it isn't a necessity to breed.

ETA: Yes I know that about importing .


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> where did they say any old dog! I read it that the show expenditure should not be deducted from the gross profit!


:lol: There's no gross profit to deduct the showing costs from :lol:

Someone said "puppy sales" fund the hobby - the hobbies are breeding and showing - puppy sales fund NEITHER 

I am really struggling to understand which part of significant losses some people don't understand.

I don't mind - and I am not complaining - what does irritate the hell out of me is people who know SFA about breeding assuming that they know more than the people actually doing it


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> where the heck did you stay! I did many shows at the SECC and staying on site at the crown plaza or the city inn cost nowhere near that!


the costs were for TWO trips including entry frees, travels costs and hotel costs for two people - it's a cool 1,000 mile round trip - and staying onsite at SKC would have cost considerably more than the hotel we did stay at.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

swarthy said:


> :lol: There's no gross profit to deduct the showing costs from :lol:
> 
> Someone said "puppy sales" fund the hobby - the hobbies are breeding and showing - puppy sales fund NEITHER
> 
> ...


So if a newfoundland breeder has 14 puppies and all the puppies sell for £1500 each your saying there will be no profit made? Even with all the health tests, imported father, best food possible, vet checked and microchipped, there will be a profit made.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Do you know what?
> I agree with you 200%
> I don't think that there will EVER be a breeder on this earth that will convince me that they don't make no money out of it! Unless that is they are as Daft as Noush and keep the whole damb litter!
> 
> edited to add! let me just rephrase that and say ! the MAJORITY of breeders and assuming that the delivery is straight forward!


I had a singleton and made no money but i dont care

THE FORUM WINDS ME UP TO THE MAX -GOOD BREEDERS GET SHOT DOWN AND BYB GET A PAT ON THE BACK-yep this is why i dont post half as much!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

swarthy said:


> :lol: There's no gross profit to deduct the showing costs from :lol:
> 
> Someone said "puppy sales" fund the hobby - the hobbies are breeding and showing - puppy sales fund NEITHER
> 
> ...


I might know eff all about breeding! but one thing I do know about is profit and loss!
Breeder has litter!
Expenditure to produce litter £2,500
Income from sale of Puppies £3,600 (6 pups & £600)
equals nett profit of £1,100!

opps! I used the wrong word! should have said NETT instead of GROSS!
There is money to be made at breeding! END of! thats why so many do it!
And the cost of showing is a hobby and should not be deducted from it! MY VIEW my standard!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

cav said:


> I had a singleton and made no money but i dont care
> 
> THE FORUM WINDS ME UP TO THE MAX -GOOD BREEDERS GET SHOT DOWN AND BYB GET A PAT ON THE BACK-yep this is why i dont post half as much!


Hey Cav!
You know me better then that! A lady I well respect have has TWO singleton litters and is WAY WAY out of pocket!

And I aint shooting down the good breeders! Just pointing out that there are many breeders that do make a profit and a healthy one at that!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Do you know what?
> I agree with you 200%
> I don't think that there will EVER be a breeder on this earth that will convince me that they don't make no money out of it! Unless that is they are as Daft as Noush and keep the whole damb litter!
> 
> edited to add! let me just rephrase that and say ! the MAJORITY of breeders and assuming that the delivery is straight forward!


Yep - thanks DT - publically call me a liar - it's very much appreciated - NOT.

I have no reason to lie - if I made money out of breeding I would happily admit it - but I don't - but of course you know best - you've bred loads of litters and made lots of profit and similar have loads of friends holidaying off the back of their litters - and all I can say if the best of luck to them - because I haven't - and am unable to do it when everything goes swimmingly.

Please DO ask them what corners they are cutting - maybe I could take some tips.

I buy my dogs from the money I earn in my NON DOG Business - a business I spent over 12 years at University in order to get to where I am - while holding down three jobs and keeping a daughter in private school while a single parent.

I pay for the health tests out of the money I EARN in my non dog related business - similarly the stud fees - my show entries - insurance - food - toys, bones. treats, fuel

I walk around in clothes that are donkeys years old and shoes with holes in them - because my dogs always have, and always will come first - I don't go out - I don't have a social life - I don't have holidays - my dogs, my work and my family ARE my life - my work pays for the other two.

Your comments are offensive, ignorant and unfounded - DD was right - it's a waste of time - breed a few litters PROPERLY - raise them PROPERLY - feed them PROPERLY - heat them PROPERLY and then tell us how much profit you made. Some breeds MIGHT make a profit - mine isn't one of them - and good luck to them - if they are going to be damned if they do or don't - then they may as well make hay while the sun shines.

======================

I've shown the sums - I've shown what I spend and I've shown the income from selling my pups - if you are stupid enough that you can't do the sums and realise the result is negative - then it doesn't say much for yours or anyone else's maths skills.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

No one is damning anyone, especially not the good breeders. Just because someone makes a profit from breeding, doesn't make them a bad breeder or mean anyone is slating them. It just means they make a profit - its what they do with that profit that matters to me. Seriously, can't believe how touchy people (on both sides!) are getting over this. Fair enough not everyone makes a profit, but alot of people do both good and bad breeders.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Yep - thanks DT - publically call me a liar - it's very much appreciated - NOT.
> 
> I have no reason to lie - if I made money out of breeding I would happily admit it - but I don't - but of course you know best - you've bred loads of litters and made lots of profit and similar have loads of friends holidaying off the back of their litters - and all I can say if the best of luck to them - because I haven't - and am unable to do it when everything goes swimmingly.
> 
> ...


And I can assure you! I might act stupid! but thats for me to know and you to find out!


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> That a dig at me love?
> 
> And yes I dont work but it isnt because I spend all my time with the dogs its because I am a full time carer for my OH (who has autism and M.E) and mum (Who has pnuemonia, thrombosis and diabetes).
> 
> ...


I agree with all of whats been said on the thread to varying degrees but if you breed you can make a profit, you should make a profit if you do it correctly, not, not make a profit as you should be planning and centreing around ploughing money back in to the breeding you are doing, even if this is finacial savings for the dogs you have, they will need vet care at other times outside of being pregnant, they will need all your love and devotion and the best life you can give all through thier lives.

Some litters will make a loss some a profit but id imagine overall breeding should as said if done correctly with a clear plan, maximise a profit no matter if its small or generous. Sounds very cold and business like but entering in to breeding needs a clear educated plan so that all dogs/pups can be cared for throughout the whole of thier lives

Shetlandlover i quoted this post as your dad is obviously hopeing you make a profit and you are planning so, for him to get his money back, not anything wrong in this but breeders have to honest and say thier is a profit to be made as ugly a word as this may be in this area.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I might know eff all about breeding! but one thing I do know about is profit and loss!
> Breeder has litter!
> Expenditure to produce litter £2,500
> Income from sale of Puppies £3,600 (6 pups & £600)
> ...


Expenditure to get my bitch in whelp for my last litter - over £2000 - food for around 10 weeks at £100 a week (and YES - that is how much I spend - as my bitch and then the pups have good quality food - plus Lactol, daily whole cooked chickens, rice pudding, fish, beef).

Winter litter 8 x weeks of heating on 24x7 - pretty much 24x7 x 90 degree washes of bedding - each day I am not working loses me over half the price of a single pup sold.

Registration / microchippng / worming - another few hundred pounds.

My vets bills alone - no C-Section hit over £1,000

5 pups sold x £550 = £2,750 - do you REALLY need a calculator to work it out?

Yep - I do it for the money  I give up


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hey Cav!
> You know me better then that! A lady I well respect have has TWO singleton litters and is WAY WAY out of pocket!
> 
> And I aint shooting down the good breeders! Just pointing out that there are many breeders that do make a profit and a healthy one at that!


dt i was just trying point out that things dont always go to plan and you can lose money as well in breeding.

what money i do make (if any)on breeding always goes back into the dogs-we aint all bad guys


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

cav said:


> dt i was just trying point out that things dont always go to plan and you can lose money as well in breeding.
> 
> what money i do make (if any)on breeding always goes back into the dogs-we aint all bad guys


I know that Cav! and I know that some of you don't make a vast profit! but there are many that do! epecially those who are breeding the more sought after breeds.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

mitch4 said:


> I agree with all of whats been said on the thread to varying degrees but if you breed you can make a profit, you should make a profit if you do it correctly, not, not make a profit as you should be planning and centreing around ploughing money back in to the breeding you are doing, even if this is finacial savings for the dogs you have, they will need vet care at other times outside of being pregnant, they will need all your love and devotion and the best life you can give all through thier lives.
> 
> Some litters will make a loss some a profit but id imagine overall breeding should as said if done correctly with a clear plan, maximise a profit no matter if its small or generous. Sounds very cold and business like but entering in to breeding needs a clear educated plan so that all dogs/pups can be cared for throughout the whole of thier lives
> 
> Shetlandlover i quoted this post as your dad is obviously hopeing you make a profit and you are planning so, for him to get his money back, not anything wrong in this but breeders have to honest and say thier is a profit to be made as ugly a word as this may be in this area.


If everything goes smoothly I should be able to pay dad for any c-section or any emergancy funds with the sale of a pup but in no way is that a profit because I have spent the money in the first place on the pregnancy/birth/pups.

A profit is money left over...that I will not have. If you check out a few pages back you will see WITHOUT heating costs, electric bills, un-healthy pups, problems with mum I will make a £22 profit..yes. But £22 wont be a profit if a pup gets sick or mum needs a c-section. My dad is LOANING me the money meaning the money is being spent then repaid. It would be a profit if I hadnt already spent it lets say on a c-section.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Expenditure to get my bitch in whelp for my last litter - over £2000 - food for around 10 weeks at £100 a week (and YES - that is how much I spend - as my bitch and then the pups have good quality food - plus Lactol, daily whole cooked chickens, rice pudding, fish, beef).
> 
> Winter litter 8 x weeks of heating on 24x7 - pretty much 24x7 x 90 degree washes of bedding - each day I am not working loses me over half the price of a single pup sold.
> 
> ...


Seriously, I think you've made your point, you don't make any money. Even if you did, that doesn't mean you do it for the money - no one on this thread is saying that. Some people, me included are saying that alot of people do make a profit from breeding, it doesn't make it a bad thing and ovbiously when done properly the profit is less but alot of people make a profit. You ovbiously don't, but others do. I don't know why everyone is getting so worked up about it.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Expenditure to get my bitch in whelp for my last litter - over £2000 - food for around 10 weeks at £100 a week (and YES - that is how much I spend - as my bitch and then the pups have good quality food - plus Lactol, daily whole cooked chickens, rice pudding, fish, beef).
> 
> Winter litter 8 x weeks of heating on 24x7 - pretty much 24x7 x 90 degree washes of bedding - each day I am not working loses me over half the price of a single pup sold.
> 
> ...


Do you know! I always had the upmost repect for you! you were one that I always considered did it properly!

Can I just ask you to look at another breed and tell me then that there is no money to be made!

And you never replied to my posts earlier! specifically regarding DD! what exactly did you mean here?


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Seriously, I think you've made your point, you don't make any money. Even if you did, that doesn't mean you do it for the money - no one on this thread is saying that. Some people, me included are saying that alot of people do make a profit from breeding, it doesn't make it a bad thing and ovbiously when done properly the profit is less but alot of people make a profit. You ovbiously don't, but others do. I don't know why everyone is getting so worked up about it.


Thank You! that is exactly! and ONLY what I have been saying!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

From the calculations I did before in MY breed I would have a *profit* of £22 if everything comes to the penny. Highly doubt that though.

If I saw a profit being made on my part I would be happy to say, however currently I cant see me making money from a litter. Maybe in a few years I will know/feel differently?

I know Alaska's breeder has a deal with the vets were she gets money off worming, microchipping and vaccinating pups. So maybe then?

But if Alaska takes the stud she will be having a litter in December so I will be having the heating on ALL the time which currently I dont do. So I am guessing there is a hefty cost there.

I am all for making a bit of money if it means I can spend more on the animals but as it stands in the forseable (however thats spelt) I wont be making a profit..I am happy with that because as I said I am not doing it for money.

If I sell to another breeder I wont even be charging the usual price it will be cheaper because thats how it works.

Also I believe what she ment by DD is this post she made before:



> Give up Swarthy most that have that opinion have never been apart of breeding themselves! says it all as far as im concerned against them with years of first hand experience!


Which I agree with.

2 years ago if someone had said breeding dogs didnt pay of money wise I would have laughed because I have seen the price of some dogs but when you break it down and look at the costs really it does prove that MOST breeders dont make money if doing it correctly.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I am all for making a bit of money if it means I can spend more on the animals but as it stands in the forseable (however thats spelt) I wont be making a profit..I am happy with that because as I said I am not doing it for money.
> 
> If I sell to another breeder I wont even be charging the usual price it will be cheaper because thats how it works.
> 
> Also I believe what she ment by DD is this post she made before:


If you have to rely on making £22 to spend more on you animals I would forget it!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> If you have to rely on making £22 to spend more on you animals I would forget it!


No I was making a statement.

If I made a substanial profit then I would say yes I would/do make a profit as hell if I bought everything I wanted for the animals then the house would be crammed full.

£700 profit would pay for some vet fee's towards any future litters and so on but as I said with my calculations £22 would be my profit since that word has become so important in this thread.

I have more than enough money to look after my dogs (£150 a month for Scorchers medication, £80 insurance for the dogs and cats, £90 a month dog food, toys and vet checks.). And a few years ago went without food to feed my dogs. I have a failsafe so I can do what needs to be done when the time comes and that money is ONLY spent on the dogs.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Huge, pretty amazing breeders in both of my breeds have told me that unless something goes wrong or it's a small litter there will be a profit made. Even a pretty huge name in the judging world has told me this too. Fair enough some people on here don't make a profit for whatever reason, but many do. I'm really at a loss to see why some people are getting so defensive.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Huge, pretty amazing breeders in both of my breeds have told me that unless something goes wrong or it's a small litter there will be a profit made. Even a pretty huge name in the judging world has told me this too. Fair enough some people on here don't make a profit for whatever reason, but many do. I'm really at a loss to see why some people are getting so defensive.


I think that its because they pay out alot of money and get nothing (moneywise) in return so for then someone to come on and make statement like the one that started all this upsets them because they could skrimp back and get money that way but decide not to.

You can view my calculated costs on the other page which doesnt include excess heating, electric and c-sections/sick pups/sick mum.

Define small litters? My average is 4. However its very common to have singleton pups and litters of 2.

Big dogs or dogs that sell for a excess amount like pugs (£1500), st bernards (£1600) and so on I agree there is more than likely a profit made there, although big breed breeders spend much more on anastectic, food and medication ebcause their dogs are so big.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> No I was making a statement.
> 
> If I made a substanial profit then I would say yes I would/do make a profit as hell if I bought everything I wanted for the animals then the house would be crammed full.
> 
> ...


I had vet bills totally over £11k for my four year old , and money certainly does not come into it here! it was merely wanting to breed my own show pup!

The dampers were put on it by the OH saying he did not want another pup!
Did have her hip scored but have put the idea on the back boiler!

Did have a discussion with the breeder of my bitch, and sorry! but I cannot fail to see how she did not make a profit!

She owns both the sire and the dam (Brought in the Sire from a good breeder)

The dam (my dogs mother) has had two litter one of 10 pups the other of eleven. she had lost one pup! they were both straight forward deliveries!

The first litter (that my girl was from) 9 pups sold for £650 each (that was the litter that lost one) the second litter 11 pups were sold for £725 each!

now if there is not a profit there I will eat my knickers!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Huge, pretty amazing breeders in both of my breeds have told me that unless something goes wrong or it's a small litter there will be a profit made. Even a pretty huge name in the judging world has told me this too. Fair enough some people on here don't make a profit for whatever reason, but many do. I'm really at a loss to see why some people are getting so defensive.


Beyond me too!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I had vet bills totally over £11k for my four year old , and money certainly does not come into it here! it was merely wanting to breed my own show pup!
> 
> The dampers were put on it by the OH saying he did not want another pup!
> Did have her hip scored but have put the idea on the back boiler!
> ...


I agree in some breeds/some breeders make a profit however as far as I can see in mine..you dont.

I dont own the sire that will sire my pups, yes I could save money by using Kai but I dont want to do it on the cheap. And as said on the other page wont be using Kai until hes been proven in the ring.

My breed has small litters average of 4 rarely more.
So no profit in it for me...

Bigger breeds have bigger litters so yes chances are there are some breeders out there that do make money.

However you cant geralise (however that spelt...that looks like a dirty word so not spelt right) saying "breeders make a profit" because that isnt the case with alot of breeders.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I think that its because they pay out alot of money and get nothing (moneywise) in return so for then someone to come on and make statement like the one that started all this upsets them because they could skrimp back and get money that way but decide not to.
> 
> You can view my calculated costs on the other page which doesnt include excess heating, electric and c-sections/sick pups/sick mum.
> 
> ...


That's completely understandable, but theres been unfairness and plain rudeness on both sides of the debate tonight lols. Not by you, in my eyes though . You cant tar anyone with the same brush when it comes to breeding i think. You can't say there will never be a profit made and you can't say there will always be a profit made. It's like the example i made - newfie litter of 12, £1500 a pup, normal birth ect - even with the best there will be a profit made lols! Same breeder once had a singleton pup and kept it - no profit made at all lols, infact she lost money as she had to pay a stud fee . It's not black and white, and no one on here (no matter how much experience they have) can say it is. x


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> That's completely understandable, but theres been unfairness and plain rudeness on both sides of the debate tonight lols. Not by you, in my eyes though . You cant tar anyone with the same brush when it comes to breeding i think. You can't say there will never be a profit made and you can't say there will always be a profit made. It's like the example i made - newfie litter of 12, £1500 a pup, normal birth ect - even with the best there will be a profit made lols! Same breeder once had a singleton pup and kept it - no profit made at all lols, infact she lost money as she had to pay a stud fee . It's not black and white, and no one on here (no matter how much experience they have) can say it is. x


I agree with you completely there. With my breed unless you own a large amount you will rarely see a profit. I know breeders who own 20-30 dogs and even 70 and breed multiple litters every year...there is no doubt in my mind they make money.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> That's completely understandable, but theres been unfairness and plain rudeness on both sides of the debate tonight lols. Not by you, in my eyes though . You cant tar anyone with the same brush when it comes to breeding i think. You can't say there will never be a profit made and you can't say there will always be a profit made. It's like the example i made - newfie litter of 12, £1500 a pup, normal birth ect - even with the best there will be a profit made lols! Same breeder once had a singleton pup and kept it - no profit made at all lols, infact she lost money as she had to pay a stud fee . It's not black and white, and no one on here (no matter how much experience they have) can say it is. x


I was niether being unfair nor rude! but any respect I had for certain people went right outta the window tonight!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I was niether being unfair nor rude! but any respect I had for certain people went right outta the window tonight!


Not me though DT.....after everything we have been through. :lol::arf:


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I was niether being unfair nor rude! but any respect I had for certain people went right outta the window tonight!


Nah I don't mean you either lols! There was only about 2 or 3 people that were just very high on their horse lols :lol:


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Nah I don't mean you either lols! There was only about 2 or 3 people that were just very high on their horse lols :lol:


Yep! I know! mine is 17hh by the way! so I shal be looking down at em tomorrow


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Yep! I know! mine is 17hh by the way! so I shal be looking down at em tomorrow


i don't have a horse ! i have a newfie though does he count :lol: ? x


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> i don't have a horse ! i have a newfie though does he count :lol: ? x


8hh max! so you'll be looking up!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> However you cant geralise (however that spelt...that looks like a dirty word so not spelt right) saying "breeders make a profit" because that isnt the case with alot of breeders.


u also cant generelise saying that .....


shetlandlover said:


> who ever thinks you can make money from breeding is very poorly educated.
> .


where in fact alot of breeders do make a profit


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

I am off to bed now.....completely missed watching the misfits 

Have fun on your real horse DT and have fun on your newfie Fuzz.:thumbup:


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> 8hh max! so you'll be looking up!


I have two and a half (13weeks old) do you think they would mind if i bundled them on top of each other :lol: x


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Natik said:


> u also cant generelise saying that .....
> 
> where in fact alot of breeders do make a profit


I think the problem is Natik that certainly during my time on pet forums we have NEVER had a breeder come on and say they have made XXXX amount of money for a litter! They all seem to be intent on telling us how much it costs, how much hard work it it and how much worry it brings with it! 
And woe betide them that try and prove otherwise!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think the problem is Natik that certainly during my time on pet forums we have NEVER had a breeder come on and say they have made XXXX amount of money for a litter! They all seem to be intent on telling us how much it costs, how much hard work it it and how much worry it brings with it!
> And woe betide them that try and prove otherwise!


i remember one breeder being upfront about making profit, an ethical one as well, but that was a long time ago. 
I dont understand why its such a taboo subject and people will scream from the roof tops if they make a loss but keep quite if there is a profit. 
I rather just be honest


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Originally Posted by shetlandlover 
who ever thinks you can make money from breeding is very poorly educated.

Really! is that right? you stand by that do you? I am poorly educated! I have filed that little gem away for futher reference! expect no mercy!!
DT
.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Natik said:


> i remember one breeder being upfront about making profit, an ethical one as well, but that was a long time ago.
> I dont understand why its such a taboo subject and people will scream from the roof tops if they make a loss but keep quite if there is a profit.
> I rather just be honest


Me neither Natik! OK! there are those that don't make so much as others and I guess when there are complications that some do lose, but all in all there is a profit to be made!

but one think that confues me why do some take into account the feeding , insurance and upkeep of the bitch?


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Anyway Natik! seems you are uneducated! or poorly educated! and I am bloody fuming to be told that by a twenty one year old!


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

lol well im uneducated too  never mind id rather be honest :thumbup:


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

mitch4 said:


> lol well im uneducated too  never mind id rather be honest :thumbup:


Well I am too if the truth be known! but the glooves are off now!


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

:eek6::lol::lol::lol:

what you say is true


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

mitch4 said:


> :eek6::lol::lol::lol:
> 
> what you say is true


what that I am poorly educated?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Me neither Natik! OK! there are those that don't make so much as others and I guess when there are complications that some do lose, but all in all there is a profit to be made!
> 
> but one think that confues me why do some take into account the feeding , insurance and upkeep of the bitch?


the profit differs and there are cases were loss is made but i agree, in average there is some sort of profit to be made.

The other part is something that confuses me too lol


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> I think the problem is Natik that certainly during my time on pet forums we have NEVER had a breeder come on and say they have made XXXX amount of money for a litter! They all seem to be intent on telling us how much it costs, how much hard work it it and how much worry it brings with it!


Ok - I breed and after deductions I made £2,500 on my last litter - this amount is I think a fair reward for the time and effort spent in raising the litter and for the quality of what I produce - it's a total nonsense to compare dog breeding with golfing , football, painting or other hobbies - I can't think that Tiger Woods has ever had to sit up night and day with a set of golf clubs or that David Beckhams football boots have ever trashed his kitchen - these are all 'stand alone ' hobbies that have negligible impact on your home life - breeding a litter of pups takes over the breeders life in a way that no mere hobby ever would ! my hobby is not breeding but showing and agility -I breed only when I want a new pup with which to continue my hobbies and always to the highest possible standards and I produce quality dogs - why shoudl this not be reflected in their price ?

P.S....the 'profit' of £2,500 does not take into account the cost of importing the pups mum at £3,000 !!


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Woman in my street breeds lhasa apsos has dam and sire also bitch from last litter none are vacanated she also studs out male had 3 litters 1 at each season money maker  £500 per pup


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Do you know! I always had the upmost repect for you! you were one that I always considered did it properly!
> 
> Can I just ask you to look at another breed and tell me then that there is no money to be made!
> 
> And you never replied to my posts earlier! specifically regarding DD! what exactly did you mean here?


If you look at my posts, I did say I am sure there are some breeds that make money.

IF I had taken a third litter from my eldest girl, and everything had gone swimmingly - with a litter of 8, I would have made a profit - because all her health tests were paid for, I had the whelping kit so would have needed only new bedding - she's such a tart and so consitent - I wouldn't have needed to spend around £200 in pre-mate testng - and I would have used my own dog - who physically is a good match for her - so ignoring the not insignificant costs associated with buying him in and health testing - yes, I would have made a profit.

Over my three litters I have made a significant loss - by individual litters - I made enough out of my second one to buy a new Dyson (which I couldn't declare so STILL had to pay tax) - after my first litter I had to buy a new washing machine and tumble dryer - out of my own pocket.

Overall in my plans and intentions for breeding I am currently thousands out of pocket - that's nothing to do with insurance or showing which I pay - and if the non-dog business is quiet - I don't show - simple as - but because one dog I couldn't breed from after paying everything out - the other I chose not to and gave away to a more suitable, non-show home who neutered him.

The total investment in those two dogs, removing any of the day to day costs I have to pay for them as my pets for the remaining 5/6 to days a week, and all the show costs - was well in excess of £2K - those are costs the tax man never sees or considers.

My first years tax return where I bred, I had more back than the cost of a pup - so if I did make a profit, it was from the tax-man.

What is very interesting - is I know of a number of people who have been 'grassed' to the IR by people who think they do know it all - and in all instances they have ended up being OWED money


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

swarthy said:


> If you look at my posts, I did say I am sure there are some breeds that make money.
> 
> IF I had taken a third litter from my eldest girl, and everything had gone swimmingly - with a litter of 8, I would have made a profit - because all her health tests were paid for, I had the whelping kit so would have needed only new bedding - she's such a tart and so consitent - I wouldn't have needed to spend around £200 in pre-mate testng - and I would have used my own dog - who physically is a good match for her - so ignoring the not insignificant costs associated with buying him in and health testing - yes, I would have made a profit.
> 
> ...


My final say to you Swarthy, I think I have gotton to know (as much as anyone can on a forum) The likes of yourself, Sleeping lionL, Cav, DD and a few more! And it don't take a genius to work out the chaf from the wheat! (NOpe Shetland yo Don't neeid no fanci education fo that! ) And maybe it is the dogs that some of you guys breed and your ethics that stump the profits so to speak for you guys!

But take a look at some of the rarer breeds, and some of the prices charged! as long as I have a hole in my jacksy NO ONE will convince me that there are not breeders out there, many etical that do make money!

A fine example would be a lady in the south of England! a couple of years ago was selling BLUE weims and offering stud services! Those pups if I remember right were advertised at either a £1000 or £1500 (and there was no show costs there to be taken into account as they cannot be shown in the UK) the member nfp will maybe remember better that I, Now weimys are capable of larger litters! Nine maybe average, now that adds up to a lot of money on my calculater! (and for those thinking of a blue - dont bother! they are not a recognized colour in the UK).

What I guess I am saying is, much is to do with demand exceeding supply! Folk want summat different and will pay top dollar for it! and those breeders that jumps on them bandwagons to feed that demand make money - of that I have no doubt!

And you are still one of those that I have much respect of Swarthy!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I take it it's a free entry, with a refund on travelling expenses for you to be going


:lol:
:lol::lol:
....................


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Have a brilliant time, I like the venue! Best of luck!  couldnt make it this year!


ta xx thats a shame. got the credit card ready lol


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> My final say to you Swarthy, I think I have gotton to know (as much as anyone can on a forum) The likes of yourself, Sleeping lionL, Cav, DD and a few more! And it don't take a genius to work out the chaf from the wheat! (NOpe Shetland yo Don't neeid no fanci education fo that! ) And maybe it is the dogs that some of you guys breed and your ethics that stump the profits so to speak for you guys!
> 
> But take a look at some of the rarer breeds, and some of the prices charged! as long as I have a hole in my jacksy NO ONE will convince me that there are not breeders out there, many etical that do make money!
> 
> ...


Calm down hun, it sounds like you're about to burst a blood vessel 

I'm more than happy to talk about any costs as a would be breeder. I've paid out for hip scores and elbow grades, one bva current clear eye cert, CNM test, and will also pay for another bva eye cert and a PRA test, although I'll be doing that via the cbp route as it's cheaper - Tau is cbp but her sire's results aren't on the KC database, so to make sure the pups status is listed on their KC paperwork, I need to test.

So, what's that so far? I haven't got the receipts to hand, but certainly over £500. I have to buy in whelping kit, as I haven't got one yet. The stud dog is one that competed at the IGL Retriever Championships this year, his fees are not inconsiderable, and I have to travel quite a way to get there. I will premate Tau because although she appears to be text book with her seasons and flirtiness :scared: I want to be certain, as this will be her only litter (should I go ahead). I'm keeping two pups back, and hoping to get another person to run on a pup for me, with a view to competition/working, I've already got one such home lined up. So, four pups will (hopefully) be taken out of the equation, should she have four pups.

I'm really thinking as a business venture, it isn't exactly profitable right about now. As a vocation, or hobby, it wouldn't even pay for itself. And that's before I even add in the true costs you should associate with any business, purchase prices, feeding, kennels, bedding, and all the associated accoutrements of dogs, after all, if I didn't have dogs to breed from, I wouldn't need to buy these things.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> What I guess I am saying is, much is to do with demand exceeding supply! Folk want summat different and will pay top dollar for it! and those breeders that jumps on them bandwagons to feed that demand make money - of that I have no doubt!


Absolutely -and I *have *acknowledged that - I can remember my OH seeing an advert for DDB and asking me exactly why we chose to own, show and breed Labs (until he saw one and then changed his mind - 7 of those in our house might not be so practical :lol

There are some on here very scathing and generalistic about ALL breeders.

Assuming absolutely no costs - we once did a calculation of the hourly rate for raising an average sized litter of Labs and selling at an average price - bearing in mind the time commitment required, and forgetting any time commitment associated with going to the stud dog etc - the hourly rate came in at around £2 an hour - even if you had a breeder who didn't do night shfts (maybe I am too cautious - mine aren't left until the last pup is gone and they are well past 8 weeks) then it still comes in around £4 an hour.

That's without the heartache, the mess, the worry etc - the devastation of nurturing a weak pup only to have it die screaming in your arms - so IF there are breeders doing it properly and making a profit, good luck to them.



DoubleTrouble said:


> And you are still one of those that I have much respect of Swarthy!


Thank you


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

Well as you all know I have just had a litter. I am going to be totally honest with you and I did make a profit, the cost of 2 puppies is the profit I made. Rosie had 8 puppies ( I am not including my hours of attention they have all had just the hours of work i have lost through staying home), I feel in my heart of hearts I did everything I could for these puppies and Rosie. The stud dog was the best I could find to compliment Rosie both dogs have been health tested, Rosie had many vet check up during her pregnancy that she probably didn't need , kennel club breeders insurance, the puppies had everything they needed heat mat, £200 worth of vet bed washed at 90 degrees every day to ensure no bacteria stayed on the bed, heating on full blast for the last 2 months, fencing so ensure safety in the garden, indoor puppy pen, I have not worked for 2 months, they have had dew claws removed, kennel club registration a few small additional vet checks, Rosie needed antibiotics, I could sit here all day listing all the things I spent money on but it does cost a huge amount of money. I was very prepared to be out of pocket, and I did not do this to make money. I gave my friend a puppy which I could have easily sold but a good home is far more important to me than the money. To be honest as I have previously written taking the money for these little bundles was one of the hardest parts of the whole process. So why did I not give these puppies away for free you may ask. Mainly to prevent any undesirable owners to come along because they are cheap, I think my puppies were worth every penny they have been reared with so much love and care and the cost of a pup is immeasurable when they become a member of the family. So I have been honest an whatever your response I know I can hold my head up and say i did the best for the pups and Rosie and yes I did not need to spend as much as I did on them, but for my own peace of mind and for the sake of the puppies/Rosie I was happy to do so. I hope all this waffle makes sense but I am sure you get what i am trying to say OH buy the way as much as I could do with a lovely new kitchen most of the profit went on a nice new coat for Rosie, also new beds for each of my dogs, a meal out to thank my family for their support and lots of new toys for Rosie. I will never be able to begin to repay Rosie for her loyalty and being such a fantastic mum, producing some great quality pups, and letting me in on the most wonderful experience of raising a litter with her but I will be spoiling her rotten for ever.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

vizzy24 said:


> Well as you all know I have just had a litter. I am going to be totally honest with you and I did make a profit, the cost of 2 puppies is the profit I made. Rosie had 8 puppies ( I am not including my hours of attention they have all had just the hours of work i have lost through staying home), I feel in my heart of hearts I did everything I could for these puppies and Rosie. The stud dog was the best I could find to compliment Rosie both dogs have been health tested, Rosie had many vet check up during her pregnancy that she probably didn't need , kennel club breeders insurance, the puppies had everything they needed heat mat, £200 worth of vet bed washed at 90 degrees every day to ensure no bacteria stayed on the bed, heating on full blast for the last 2 months, fencing so ensure safety in the garden, indoor puppy pen, I have not worked for 2 months, they have had dew claws removed, kennel club registration a few small additional vet checks, Rosie needed antibiotics, I could sit here all day listing all the things I spent money on but it does cost a huge amount of money. I was very prepared to be out of pocket, and I did not do this to make money. I gave my friend a puppy which I could have easily sold but a good home is far more important to me than the money. To be honest as I have previously written taking the money for these little bundles was one of the hardest parts of the whole process. So why did I not give these puppies away for free you may ask. Mainly to prevent any undesirable owners to come along because they are cheap, I think my puppies were worth every penny they have been reared with so much love and care and the cost of a pup is immeasurable when they become a member of the family. So I have been honest an whatever your response I know I can hold my head up and say i did the best for the pups and Rosie and yes I did not need to spend as much as I did on them, but for my own peace of mind and for the sake of the puppies/Rosie I was happy to do so. I hope all this waffle makes sense but I am sure you get what i am trying to say OH buy the way as much as I could do with a lovely new kitchen most of the profit went on a nice new coat for Rosie, also new beds for each of my dogs, a meal out to thank my family for their support and lots of new toys for Rosie. I will never be able to begin to repay Rosie for her loyalty and being such a fantastic mum, producing some great quality pups, and letting me in on the most wonderful experience of raising a litter with her but I will be spoiling her rotten for ever.


I don't think there is a single soul on here that would doubt that not only did you do the best you could! you by far exceeded what many do!

Thank you for telling your experience as it was! and the way you have calculated the profit would have been exactly the way I would have!
DT

ps Bet you are missing them pupsters!


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I don't think there is a single soul on here that would doubt that not only did you do the best you could! you by far exceeded what many do!
> 
> Thank you for telling your experience as it was! and the way you have calculated the profit would have been exactly the way I would have!
> DT
> ...


Thanks dt and yes like mad


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

My last litter i would have made some profit if i sold the full litter but i wanted keep one back.(on the litter i did have a emergancy vet bills-so yep extra)

Some do make money ive never said they dont but i also know to make £££s you need to cut corners.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

cav said:


> My last litter i would have made some profit if i sold the full litter but i wanted keep one back.(on the litter i did have a emergancy vet bills-so yep extra)
> 
> Some do make money ive never said they dont but i also know to make £££s you need to cut corners.


Check my other thread Cav! - re some litters being advertised at the mo!
That is if you have time mate!


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Check my other thread Cav! - re some litters being advertised at the mo!
> That is if you have time mate!


where is this thread dt


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

cav said:


> where is this thread dt


here ya go Cav! it were french bulldogs I searched! as they are pretty hot at the moment it seems!

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/136385-so-these-breeders-making-any-money-then.html


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Check my other thread Cav! - re some litters being advertised at the mo!
> That is if you have time mate!


Without knowing anything about the breed or what is required to produce a litter - no-one can give an informed answer - but ostensibly - yes, they probably are - the price of a single pup is only slightly less than that generated from the sale of my first and third litters!

Those sorts prices for a pup are nothing short of outrageous IMHO and I would struggle to see how they could be justified. Having said that - they may well have paid a similar amount for their bitch, and the stud dog and MAY have health tested - we simply don't know - so while on the face of it - yes a profit seems likely - the truth is - we don't have the facts to confirm that assumption.

i don't think anyone has argued that SOME breeds will generate a profit relatively consistently - although of course this is far from all breeds as has been suggested by some posting on here.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think the problem is Natik that certainly during my time on pet forums we have NEVER had a breeder come on and say they have made XXXX amount of money for a litter! They all seem to be intent on telling us how much it costs, how much hard work it it and how much worry it brings with it!
> And woe betide them that try and prove otherwise!


Well thats not true at all is it 

Infact, i believe on this very thread I was happy to say that I had made some money on my current litter as we had a large litter (for the breed) and had no complications. However, you and others with your mindset seem to automatically assume that we as the breeders will use that "profit" to fund new cars/holidays etc etc  When infact, that small amount of money made will be used on the dogs - health testing, showing etc etc. We actually have a seperate "dog bank account" set up where the money goes in (and we both put money in monthly from WORKING otherwise it would be constantly overdrawn!) and that is used only on the dogs.

I could make a lot of money out of dog breeding and I know people do. But those are called PUPPY FARMERS. If those of us on here decided not to health test, not to care for our mum and pups correctly and not to show our dogs to make sure we're only breeding the best AND had about 5 times as many litters a year then yeah, we'd probably made a significant "profit". Its being compared to people who treat their animals like that that has got people so defensive 

BTW, you're more likely to make money out of a popular stud than breeding your bitch, so maybe the other breeders mentioned previously were referring to that. We imported a dog, that cost us well into 5 figures all in. Now, we could make that back in just a couple of month if we bumped his stud fee up and took up all the requests for using him (well over 50 now). However, as we imported him to HELP the breed, not hinder it, we have put a blanket no on using him until we are satisfied he has proven himself in the ring and until we have a litter from him to make sure all is ok and he doesnt produce any undesirable problems. But I know of some people who charge a stud fee of £1000+. If they get 5 bitches visit the dog a month (usually they have more...) it doesnt take a genius to work out they are making a HUGE profit with very little outgoing, and even better, the tax man doesnt seem to care


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> However, you and others with your mindset seem to automatically assume that we as the breeders will use that "profit" to fund new cars/holidays etc etc  :


i havent read anything like that on this thread, have i missed it?
Or are u assuming that others assume things??? lol


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> i havent read anything like that on this thread, have i missed it?
> Or are u assuming that others assume things??? lol


On this forum in general there is an attitude amongst many that breeders only breed to make money. It crops up in many threads, including this one.

ETA: I see that there has been an entire thread made to discuss this very subject now! If that doesnt back up my point I dont know what does :lol:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> On this forum in general there is an attitude amongst many that breeders only breed to make money. It crops up in many threads, including this one.


well, u didnt generelize, u picked out a member of whom i havent read such a thing on this thread, unless i missed it, so thats not a nice accusation.

U actually generelize by using the term breeders, while others dont using the term "some" for instance in their sentences.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> well, u didnt generelize, u picked out a member of whom i havent read such a thing on this thread, unless i missed it, so thats not a nice accusation.
> 
> U actually generelize by using the term breeders, while others dont using the term "some" for instance in their sentences.


Well, your post is not a very nice accusation at all either! Especially as you're way off the mark :lol: Its pretty clear that the majority of my post is not directed at the person I quoted, especially as I go on to discuss things mentioned by other posters previously and about things the quote doesnt talk about.

Stop trying to pick a fight. You have a habit of turning any thread into an argument dont you


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jess2308 said:


> Well, your post is not a very nice accusation at all either! Especially as you're way off the mark :lol: Its pretty clear that the majority of my post is not directed at the person I quoted, especially as I go on to discuss things mentioned by other posters previously and about things the quote doesnt talk about.
> 
> Stop trying to pick a fight. You have a habit of turning any thread into an argument dont you


but u still made accusation accusing a certain member by using this term



Jess2308 said:


> However, you and others :


And bt u wont succeed winding me up anymore with ur silly comments :lol: :001_tt2:


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> but u still made accusation accusing a certain member by using this term
> 
> And bt u wont succeed winding me up anymore with ur silly comments :lol: :001_tt2:


I dont even understand that post so wont bother commenting on it. Stop trying to goad me.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

u made an assumption that a certain member assumes that breeders use the profit to fund cars and holidays which i just pointed out i havent read in any of the posts, cant make it any clearer


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Ok...


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Showing your dog is not necessary to breeding,


not its not but if it is if your aim to breed better examples of the breed/dam and sire - then it certainly should be. EVERY good breeder should be proving their dogs in one or more areas, let that be showing, working ect!



cav said:


> I had a singleton and made no money but i dont care
> 
> THE FORUM WINDS ME UP TO THE MAX -GOOD BREEDERS GET SHOT DOWN AND BYB GET A PAT ON THE BACK-yep this is why i dont post half as much!


The very same here.. we lost 5 out of 6 pups to FP - the vet didnt have hope for the wee man - but he is still fighting 5weeks later! massive of vet bills later, we will have made a loss...so what? we are happy to admit we have and no doubt will again make a profit on a litter - shame its not enough to buy a new house, have a wee hoilday though huh? 



swarthy said:


> Your comments are offensive, ignorant and unfounded - DD was right - it's a waste of time - breed a few litters PROPERLY - raise them PROPERLY - feed them PROPERLY - heat them PROPERLY and then tell us how much profit you made. Some breeds MIGHT make a profit - mine isn't one of them - and good luck to them - if they are going to be damned if they do or don't - then they may as well make hay while the sun shines.


To right - really isnt worth the time of day - most wont change their minds!



DoubleTrouble said:


> Do you know! I always had the upmost repect for you! you were one that I always considered did it properly!
> 
> Can I just ask you to look at another breed and tell me then that there is no money to be made!
> 
> And you never replied to my posts earlier! specifically regarding DD! what exactly did you mean here?


She meant where I commented earlier saying the people with such opinions - have never been involved in breeding, so a waste of time trying to tell them different to what they already believe!



Natik said:


> i remember one breeder being upfront about making profit, an ethical one as well, but that was a long time ago.
> I dont understand why its such a taboo subject and people will scream from the roof tops if they make a loss but keep quite if there is a profit.
> I rather just be honest


I to remember one breeder well a few actually!



DoubleTrouble said:


> Originally Posted by shetlandlover
> who ever thinks you can make money from breeding is very poorly educated.
> 
> Really! is that right? you stand by that do you? I am poorly educated! I have filed that little gem away for futher reference! expect no mercy!!
> ...


Breeders do make profit, not on every litter and there is NO way of telling what litter you will make a loss and gain on til the very end! The very first few litters a breeder will have in my experience and opinion will be where they make the most loss!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Natik said:


> Who's BT:scared::scared:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Who's BT:scared::scared:


:lol: btw i meant :lol: my little fingers cant catch up with my thoughts :scared:


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I don't know if that was aimed at me? Because I said that it's what the profit is spent on that matters? I thought I made it pretty clear that a good breeder will spend the money on importing new lines ect and that the money will go back in to the dogs/breed in one way or another. A bad breeder will spend the money on a holiday in the sun ect. I severly doubt there is any bad breeders on this forum. I apologize if you thought I was accusing you of that Jess2308 - I can assure you, I wasn't. 

Someone else said (sorry not good at multi quoting) that you have to cut corners to make money from breeding. This is untrue imo. You can do everything to the highest possible standard and still make money - there may be no extra medical expenses, it may be a large litter, or it may be a large/giant breed dog or a dog that sells for more money. I'm talking about some of the best breeders in the country (if anyone wants their names, they can pm me) and I would love to see anyone try and question their breeding ethics ect. They agree that in some litters there will be a profit made and in others they will lose quite a bit of money. Like I said before, it's not black and white at all. Just because someone makes a profit on a litter, doesn't mean they bred simply for that profit - only byb and puppy farmers breed simply for profit. A good breeder will be breeding to further their lines, keep a puppy ect. Although I also don't think that a breeder has to keep a puppy from every single litter they produce, especially if they have show/working homes lined up for the most promising puppies. x


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> But take a look at some of the rarer breeds, and some of the prices charged! as long as I have a hole in my jacksy NO ONE will convince me that there are not breeders out there, many etical that do make money!


I would say my breed is a 'rarer' breed and its the BYBs that are charging silly prices for them, and them way up high in the showing world! not your avarge breeder that does it right! we have one pup to sell from this litter - and he will be going for less money than we owe the stud owner! we really will have made not one penny...and been out of pocket by over £850.. that loss is not including the food for the dam and the pup, not including money to transport a foster bitch over for her milk, not including the pups vaccinations as he hasnt had them yet.. That loss pretty much comes straight from vet fees of treating 6 pups and a dam out of hours for the first visit, and then for the follow up checks, for putting to sleep pup number 5, for taking the wee pups when passed and having a quick look to see what could have caused it and to pay the stud owner.. and the loss doesnt also include the health tests of bitch.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Devil Dogz - I know this, I show my dogs regularly at Championship shows up and down the country, not because we intend to breed but because we enjoy it. Although it tends to be a mark of a good breeder, it isn't necessary to breed. Therefore, in my opinion, the costs of showing and working should not be deducted from profits made. Although I know how expensive it is lols - living in Scotland it tends to be more expensive for us in terms of petrol money and accomodation lols :lol: x


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> To right - really isnt worth the time of day - most wont change their minds!
> 
> She meant where I commented earlier saying the people with such opinions - have never been involved in breeding, so a waste of time trying to tell them different to what they already believe!
> 
> ...


So is someone saying then that someone who has not had their own litter then cannot have either an opinion or a view? Because if they are does that same person think then that a twenty one year old who just so happens to agree with em who also ain't bred can have a view!
Is this what someone is saying? because if they are they talking bullsh*t!

I ain't been hid under a rock these years I've spent on earth! have been involved with plenty of breeders as it happens!! Some ethical some not so, some making buckets loads some not! Why the man sat by my side now as I type his family between em have perhaps bred more dogs (and other animals too) then some'breeders' on here have hot dinners! Allbeit not in my view ethically! and that is why I have note to do with certain members ofthat side of the family!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Devil Dogz - I know this, I show my dogs regularly at Championship shows up and down the country, not because we intend to breed but because we enjoy it. Although it tends to be a mark of a good breeder, it isn't necessary to breed. Therefore, in my opinion, the costs of showing and working should not be deducted from profits made. Although I know how expensive it is lols - living in Scotland it tends to be more expensive for us in terms of petrol money and accomodation lols :lol: x


I see what your saying its just not how I see it - showing for us is part of breeding, as we expect to prove our dogs in the showing ring as a good example before breeding on from them - One of our closest friends in the breed lives in scotland, I know just how much she spends on attending a show, bless her.. But thats what we do..I enjoy showing my dogs and promoting my mums lines while at it!


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I don't know if that was aimed at me? Because I said that it's what the profit is spent on that matters? I thought I made it pretty clear that a good breeder will spend the money on importing new lines ect and that the money will go back in to the dogs/breed in one way or another. A bad breeder will spend the money on a holiday in the sun ect. I severly doubt there is any bad breeders on this forum. I apologize if you thought I was accusing you of that Jess2308 - I can assure you, I wasn't.
> 
> Someone else said (sorry not good at multi quoting) that you have to cut corners to make money from breeding. This is untrue imo. You can do everything to the highest possible standard and still make money - there may be no extra medical expenses, it may be a large litter, or it may be a large/giant breed dog or a dog that sells for more money. I'm talking about some of the best breeders in the country (if anyone wants their names, they can pm me) and I would love to see anyone try and question their breeding ethics ect. They agree that in some litters there will be a profit made and in others they will lose quite a bit of money. Like I said before, it's not black and white at all. Just because someone makes a profit on a litter, doesn't mean they bred simply for that profit - only byb and puppy farmers breed simply for profit. A good breeder will be breeding to further their lines, keep a puppy ect. Although I also don't think that a breeder has to keep a puppy from every single litter they produce, especially if they have show/working homes lined up for the most promising puppies. x


Thats exactly what I have been saying :thumbup:

We were lucky and made a bit of money this litter. We had a labrador litter a few years ago and mum had c-section, we lost the only bitch that we had planned to keep so ended up keeping a dog, it was a small litter so we only had two to sell at £500 and one of those required surgery as it had a hole in its diaphragm so we had the surgery done and gave it away to friends. That left us with £500 "profit" from selling the one puppy, and about £3000 "expenditure" for the litter in vets bills and stuff. So its easy to see how profit from one litter will be eaten up by a litter that doesnt go to plan 

I dont think any breeders on here are saying that there is never a profit in breeding, just that its not why it should be done and anyone who is passionate about their breed puts all the "profits" back into their dog. I dont like how on this forum some people seem to group puppy farmers and good breeders in the same little category and just assume we all have the same motivation for breeding. Maybe i read the posts wrong and misunderstand the intention, but certainly on discussing certain threads with other breeders im not the only one on here who feels like we almost have to apologise for breeding our dogs, despite the fact we do it the RIGHT way.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I see what your saying its just not how I see it - showing for us is part of breeding, as we expect to prove our dogs in the showing ring as a good example before breeding on from them - One of our closest friends in the breed lives in scotland, I know just how much she spends on attending a show, bless her.. But thats what we do..I enjoy showing my dogs and promoting my mums lines while at it!


And what a lovely lady she is too!  (heck I miss her)! But maybe another way to look at it is that breeding can fund the hobby! don't take that the wrong way! it weren't meant tobe insulting!


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I see what your saying its just not how I see it - showing for us is part of breeding, as we expect to prove our dogs in the showing ring as a good example before breeding on from them - One of our closest friends in the breed lives in scotland, I know just how much she spends on attending a show, bless her.. But thats what we do..I enjoy showing my dogs and promoting my mums lines while at it!


Just a differing of opinion lols - I too though do agree that to be a good breeder you have to be breeding the good exmapls of the breed and the only way to determine that is by going to dog shows regularly . The worst ones are places like Bath and Bournemouth - horrible journey lols :lol:. Although when SKC and Border Union ect come it makes us appreciate them alot more :thumbup: x


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> And what a lovely lady she is too!  (heck I miss her)! But maybe another way to look at it is that breeding can fund the hobby! don't take that the wrong way! it weren't meant tobe insulting!


Why would I take it the wrong way..I agree it sure does, I have said a number of times on this forum from day one which was nearly 2 year ago that any money we make goes in a bank account for the dogs alone - that will also pay for shows when needed.


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## JohnMorris (Oct 15, 2010)

Oh dear not again? Why do we keep going through these contraversial threads and playing pingpong? Makes my neck hurt. Are people getting stressed about Christmas and releasing it on here?


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Really! is that right? you stand by that do you? I am poorly educated! I have filed that little gem away for futher reference! expect no mercy!!
> DT


It was made because of comments like these.



> It is only animal breeders that demand recompense for their "hobby". only animal breeders that need money to fund their hobby, to show, to continue lines, to buy new dogs etc. That is why animal breeding is "commercial





> if there was no money in it at all then why are the free-Ads full of dogs, some from well established breeders too, why would breeders pay for website presence, news paper ads and advertising in magazines?


I am still not sure if I used the right words....as I wanted to put poorly informed but my brain works only during the day (told you I am blonde).



DoubleTrouble said:


> Anyway Natik! seems you are uneducated! or poorly educated! and I am bloody fuming to be told that by a twenty one year old!


Now this bit upset me. What does my age have to do with it? So because I am 21 I know SFA about breeding and money? When I know members on here 1,2,3 sometimes even 6 years younger than me.

Its shocking really just how little respect the show world gives you if you are young too.

So my gran who is 80 this year knows more about dog breeding than me?, No. Because she has never even seen a dog give birth.

How about Scott's granddad hes 93....nope.

Age has NOTHING to do with it.

And the poorly educated comment was ment not as a insult it was a observation because as DT we have both agree'd that *yes some people do make money from breeding* however it would be wrong to asume that ALL do and All dont.

I was reading my book that I bought yesterday last night after I came off here and noticed something said on one of the pages. Here's what it said:



> Many boarding kennel owners come into the business from the show world and may find they have extra money from puppy sales. However much depends on the breed which is their particular interest. If you breed 5 litters or more a year you will need a breeding licence. Puppy rearing if done properly , is a very time consuming occupation and is also very expensive. Profits are made only by cutting costs in every possible way. - page 143 - "Running your own boarding kennels" David Cavill (the founder of the animal care college).


Now DT I am sorry if it sounded like I was being rude I wasnt, the comment was made as a general comment I never ment to upset you or anyone else. I guess like the one you made about my age?

I guess it was a poor choice of words on my part too.

I agree with some of what you have said so far that depending on breed yes some breeders do make a profit.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Although I also don't think that a breeder has to keep a puppy from every single litter they produce, especially if they have show/working homes lined up for the most promising puppies. x


And I will be eternally grateful to two breeders who took this approach with their litters - giving me three of my four main show dogs - while I continue to develop my own lines.

I have kept from all three of my litters - three living here, and one in joint ownership in France - but going forward I will have to be more critical and make decisions based on the improvement of my lines and the show potential (not SH CH - but holding their own in the ring) - because otherwise you can quickly become over-run -

All my dogs bar one who don't show / breed have stayed here - and that is because a) I adore them b) I am too soft c) One has many qualities I need to retain in my lines - I broke my heart when I let my boy go - but knew I was doing the right thing for HIM - thankfully - my other non-show dogs like the peace and quiet and don't mind being left behind and are clearly happy with their lives  my boy wasn't - and now he is - if that's wrong (as I know some don't approve of rehoming) then I make no apologies.

My dogs will *always* come first whether they can be shown and bred from or not.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

JohnMorris said:


> Oh dear not again? Why do we keep going through these contraversial threads and playing pingpong? Makes my neck hurt. Are people getting stressed about Christmas and releasing it on here?


You wanna borrow my earplugs?:thumbup::thumbup:


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

This thread started off as a discussion about what makes a breeder a breeder and before it got to the end of page 5 was already starting to turn into a totally different issue... money ! 

Yes some litters will bring with them a small profit, some will bring a loss but at the end of the day, what difference does it really make :confused1: There are some who have posted on here to protest about breeding shouldn't be seen as a commercial venture and then later on post about how much is spent compared to how much is brought back from the litter... comes across as very businesslike to me  

Perhaps this thread would have been better off as a poll and the "business" side of it another thread altogether


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

swarthy said:


> And I will be eternally grateful to two breeders who took this approach with their litters - giving me three of my four main show dogs - while I continue to develop my own lines.
> 
> I have kept from all three of my litters - three living here, and one in joint ownership in France - but going forward I will have to be more critical and make decisions based on the improvement of my lines and the show potential (not SH CH - but holding their own in the ring) - because otherwise you can quickly become over-run -
> 
> ...


Same with us, Blue was Suzanne's pick of the boys and we will be eternally grateful for getting him, no matter how well he has does in the ring. We only have one dog that we don't show now, seeing as my brother took Harley when he got his own place and it's lucky for us that he will happily be doggy sitted by my brother when we go to dog shows and when theres fun shows on we take him there to give him a wee day out too :thumbup:. I think you done the right thing with your boy and done what was best for him - you could've just kept him and ignored the fact he was unhappy at times to make yourself feel better, but instead you put him first . I know someone who done this - the dog now lives with her postman lols :lol: x


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Its shocking really just how little respect the show world gives you if you are young too.


I couldnt have been more welcomed in to my breed and the showing world by all different degrees of breeders at my little age! I have had some great comments and support from others that show.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I couldnt have been more welcomed in to my breed and the showing world by all different degrees of breeders at my little age! I have had some great comments and support from others that show.


Same, i'm 17 and i'm the one who handles the boys. The encouragement and support I get from people is really great, but I think that does vary depending on the breed. x


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I couldnt have been more welcomed in to my breed and the showing world by all different degrees of breeders at my little age! I have had some great comments and support from others that show.


Hey DD.
I remember doing some work at blackpool dog show and saw ALOT of younger people in your breed..I was rather shocked at how young they where...then you look over to the ring with my breed in it and they are all over 50.

I think the youngest shower in our breed is 29 and she does it because her aunt shows 3 dogs in the same show so she needs the extra hands.

Alaska's breeder met me at the last show and it was great but it was only after she introduced me to everyone they where nice.

I met a lovely girl at blackpool dog show she was only 18 showing your breed. Her dog was camera shy though.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Hey DD.
> I remember doing some work at blackpool dog show and saw ALOT of younger people in your breed..I was rather shocked at how young they where...then you look over to the ring with my breed in it and they are all over 50.
> 
> I think the youngest shower in our breed is 29 and she does it because her aunt shows 3 dogs in the same show so she needs the extra hands.


Alot in cresteds are older, but some use handlers. I show mums dogs, I also know a few that show for their parents, grandparents. I think its nice to get in young - I will still be involved 50 years down the line. Most are older, but alot of the older breeders have given up and some handed dogs down.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Alot in cresteds are older, but some use handlers. I show mums dogs, I also know a few that show for their parents, grandparents. I think its nie to get in young - I will still be involved 50 years down the line. Most are older, but alot of the older breeders have given up and some handed dogs down.


Alaska's breeder has asked if I can help her at the next show but I dont know.  I know the dog she wants me to work along side shes fantastic but I dont want to **** it up for her.

At least if I mess up showing one of my own thats okay...:lol:

Do you think it could be the fact I have face piercings as well? :lol:


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## JohnMorris (Oct 15, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> You wanna borrow my earplugs?:thumbup::thumbup:


No but I feel like jacking in this forum at times with all the bickering!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I couldnt have been more welcomed in to my breed and the showing world by all different degrees of breeders at my little age! I have had some great comments and support from others that show.


The junior handlers I have seem are given much encouragement!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Alaska's breeder has asked if I can help her at the next show but I dont know.  I know the dog she wants me to work along side shes fantastic but I dont want to **** it up for her.
> 
> At least if I mess up showing one of my own thats okay...:lol:
> 
> Do you think it could be the fact I have face piercings as well? :lol:


I have showed for others, and its nerve wracking.. But just as much fun - I do love a challange and wish I could get into a few more breeds handling wise!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

JohnMorris said:


> No but I feel like jacking in this forum at times with all the bickering!


Erm! this is not bickering! it is a mere difference of opinion! You experience the same in real life surely!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> The junior handlers I have seem are given much encouragement!


Yes they are its nice to see - I never did Junior Handling. My first ever show (apart from charity events) was the Chinese Crested Club Champ show  went right in at the deep end, and have to admit to never doing an open show in my life!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yes they are its nice to see - I never did Junior Handling. My first ever show (apart from charity events) was the Chinese Crested Club Champ show  went right in at the deep end, and have to admit to never doing an open show in my life!


Out of interest DD do you have to be under 16 years of age to be a junior handler?


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Never done junior handling either and didn't go to an open show - first show was Blackpool champ show lols! Don't regret it either, i prefer the breed classes x


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I have showed for others, and its nerve wracking.. But just as much fun - I do love a challange and wish I could get into a few more breeds handling wise!


Do you not worry that you will mess up? Kai has his first show in May, If I mess up its my dog...I think Alaska's breeder would rip my head off if I fell or something.

Actually the nicest person in my breed is a guy that shows his sheltie, hes in a wheel chair and hes fantastic really is. Watching him show that dog is like magic. I first met him at Blackpool dog show then I bumped into him at the sheltie show in October. He's such a nice guy and his dog is beautiful...I have pictures of that dog and everytime I look at them a light up!! Stunning.

Kai currently dislike's standing on the table and launches himself off, he used to be fine....knowing my lucky he will leap off and chin the judge. :lol:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Out of interest DD do you have to be under 16 years of age to be a junior handler?


Dunno for sure lol..But I think you finish Junior Handling at 16 then go into adult Handling.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> - I will still be involved 50 years down the line. Most are older, but alot of the older breeders have given up and some handed dogs down.


OMG! I am:scared::scared::scared: imagining DD in fifty years time:scared::scared::scared:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Do you not worry that you will mess up? Kai has his first show in May, If I mess up its my dog...I think Alaska's breeder would rip my head off if I fell or something.
> 
> Actually the nicest person in my breed is a guy that shows his sheltie, hes in a wheel chair and hes fantastic really is. Watching him show that dog is like magic. I first met him at Blackpool dog show then I bumped into him at the sheltie show in October. He's such a nice guy and his dog is beautiful...I have pictures of that dog and everytime I look at them a light up!! Stunning.
> 
> Kai currently dislike's standing on the table and launches himself off, he used to be fine....knowing my lucky he will leap off and chin the judge. :lol:


Yeah I worry I will mess up - but its a challange I like it. I have to have a little faith in myself! lol and they must to ask me!


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

I am a breeder of 'humans' lol! Certainly not made a profit - infact a massive loss!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> OMG! I am:scared::scared::scared: imagining DD in fifty years time:scared::scared::scared:


I'll have took over mums affix by then haha! Hopefully doing her proud :thumbup:


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yeah I worry I will mess up - but its a challange I like it. I have to have a little faith in myself! lol and they must to ask me!


Im going to have to get over it.... Just dont want to fall on the dog and crush it to death or something...I dont have much luck. First time I took Alaska into the ring she thought the judge was the most interesting thing in the whole world and barked and wagged at her the whole time. Which she had never done before.....

Then I booked her into show in October but she came into season, the next show lands on her next season too. :frown:


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Im going to have to get over it.... Just dont want to fall on the dog and crush it to death or something...I dont have much luck. First time I took Alaska into the ring she thought the judge was the most interesting thing in the whole world and barked and wagged at her the whole time. Which she had never done before.....
> 
> Then I booked her into show in October but she came into season, the next show lands on her next season too. :frown:


I'll swap you can show my newfies and malamute and i'll show your shelties  :lol:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

The two hairless kids im entering for crufts will HOPEFULLY just be out of season if they come in when expected!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I'll swap you can show my newfies and malamute and i'll show your shelties  :lol:


Sure... :thumbup:

I am better with big dogs...less likely for me to fall on them. Haha.

I grew up with bigger dogs....boxers, rotties and gsd's.

Small dogs I am worried I will break them although Alaska's like rubber seriously. Last night she took off over the sofa and kept jumping over it until she tired herself out.:lol:


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> The two hairless kids im entering for crufts will HOPEFULLY just be out of season if they come in when expected!


Actually funny you say that, in Octobers show my OH got talking to a lady who brought 3 in season bitches because she thought it was good for them...then stuck her crate between two dog crates. They werent even being shown. 
The dogs over that half were going mad.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I'll have took over mums affix by then haha! Hopefully doing her proud :thumbup:


A hard act to follow DD


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Sure... :thumbup:
> 
> I am better with big dogs...less likely for me to fall on them. Haha.
> 
> ...


Lols :lol: I've always wanted to show a little dog to see the difference ! I've practised with the chiauauas (sp) in ringcraft and it's so strange lols! I kept checking to see if they were still on the leash lols :lol: x


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Lols :lol: I've always wanted to show a little dog to see the difference ! I've practised with the chiauauas (sp) in ringcraft and it's so strange lols! I kept checking to see if they were still on the leash lols :lol: x


Huh! you can show mine! you sure wouldn't have that problem


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Lols :lol: I've always wanted to show a little dog to see the difference ! I've practised with the chiauauas (sp) in ringcraft and it's so strange lols! I kept checking to see if they were still on the leash lols :lol: x


You can show mine... everyone needs a ickle hairless dog at the end of the lead!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> A hard act to follow DD


hehe indeed!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> You can show mine... everyone needs a ickle hairless dog at the end of the lead!


Wot if milly mistook it for an oven ready chicken DD! :scared::scared::scared: I would be very scared!


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## JohnMorris (Oct 15, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Erm! this is not bickering! it is a mere difference of opinion! You experience the same in real life surely!


True! In which case rthen has there ever been a case where someone has backed down and changed their opinion to match?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Wot if milly mistook it for an oven ready chicken DD! :scared::scared::scared: I would be very scared!


Dont underestimate the breed missy! They is hard ickle dogs in a boootiful naked body!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

JohnMorris said:


> True! In which case rthen has there ever been a case where someone has backed down and changed their opinion to match?


I think often what happens with many of these threads in the end JM is that many of us! me for one cease to take them seriously seriously when they have gone on so long and try to lighten the atmosphere!

Several of these breeders on this thread I have known for a fair amount of time and think I have them sussed ! (you may only think I have been here a short time - but don't let that fool ya) They ain't bad breeders but are passinate about their dogs! Just a shame the same cannot be said for all!
lol
DT


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Dont underestimate the breed missy! They is hard ickle dogs in a boootiful naked body!


Do they turn blue in the cold DD?


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> You can show mine... everyone needs a ickle hairless dog at the end of the lead!


Ahhh! You can have the newfies and the mallie for the day then :lol: I do warn you though, they are slighlty more furry than your lot


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Do they turn blue in the cold DD?


haha no ours are hard to the weather - dont like wearing coats. Good job I dont agree with dressing dogs as dolls lol - You forget they were bred to work on ships in all weathers 



Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Ahhh! You can have the newfies and the mallie for the day then :lol: I do warn you though, they are slighlty more furry than your lot


YAY - newfies one of my all time fav breeds.. I bet they are haha.. The we have a Spinone, his hair sticks to everything! :eek6:


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Kai currently dislike's standing on the table and launches himself off, he used to be fine....knowing my lucky he will leap off and chin the judge. :lol:


I had this problem with Rusty, he hated the table and would crouch right down. I didn't have my own table at home in the beginning, we used to use the coffee table with a non slip sheet over it but to help him get over his fears I used to practise on my wonky wobbly ironing board  Have to say it really did the trick, he now keeps very still on the table and doesn't mind being gone over at all


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Out of interest DD do you have to be under 16 years of age to be a junior handler?


Yep - between 6 and 16 years  my friends daughter is not two yet, and they have a heck of a job stopping her trying to get in the ring sometimes :lol:

Although not really a youngster myself (as I got the family stuff out of the way first) - I've received invaluable guidance and input from many of my older peers in the showring and breeding.

I have always found younger people coming into the showring are treated very well - they are the exhibitors and breeders of the future - and if all of us don't nurture them, while learning from the older exhibitors, the future of show world will not be in a happy place.


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> what that I am poorly educated?


 Noooooo that you can make a profit on some litters that you have


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

If you want a breed that isn't really encouraging in general to new people/young handlers then get a poodle 

People that show them are probaly in their 30s mainly. Luckily most the people in Scotland that show them are friendly and always offering me help. They invite me to their grooming salons, their houses to stay over and stuff but as soon as you go to England for shows it's so cliquey. I wasn't really accepted because Blu wasn't very good at behaving in the ring but once I got him over it people would come up and say they couldn't believe the difference. The big names in the breed have noticed it aswell but it's a shame they don't come up and say it to my face instead they tell other people  But that's showing for you :lol:


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