# Puppy Biting...The usual stuff just is not working.



## momok (Oct 19, 2011)

About 3 weeks ago we brought home a GSD, he is now 11 weeks old and doing very well on most of his obedience training, he can sit, lay, shake, stay, hasn't had even one accident in his crate...he's a smart pup. However, I cannot seem to get him to stop biting me. Its not so bad with the rest of the family, but I am his primary caretaker and I get all the teeth...all the time. Things I have tried: loud yelping sounds, taps on the nose, time out, and more recently a spray bottle. The outcome? He just bites harder and harder with each correction, and if I turn around to ignore him he just sinks into the back of my knee, calf, basically wherever he can. Today was day 2 with the spray bottle, and he actually started growling while he was clamping down, with more pressure with every "no!". I could use any bit of help here. Thanks!


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

You can read this: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/45772-help-nipping-pup.html. And stop using spry bottle as you can see it doesn't work and makes things only worst. Now your dog starts to show aggression because of it.


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## momok (Oct 19, 2011)

yeah, ive read that thread and tried everything on it, but it seems like after 2 days of doing any of the recommended techniques he starts to get more intense in his biting. I mean, its comforting to know that other people have gone through similar stubbornness with their pups, but I just cant find the right method for him. I will say this though, along with the spraying the last few days i also have been spending time intermittently throughout the day to do simple commands with him, "no bite" being one of them, and he always releases his grip on me and calmly sits down to receive his treat, so I know he knows what this means, but if get caught treatless, he just keeps at it even with a firm "no bite" command. Maybe im just expecting too much for his age, but boy do those teeth hurt.


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## momok (Oct 19, 2011)

also, I just took him to the dog park for the first time over the weekend and he seemed to really mellow out after, ie, no biting.. I don't know if he just got the right amount of energy out that day or something, but I feel like that's something i should make more frequent of an activity.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

My vet told me to do as he mother does...every time the teeth went too close i yelped really loud because that's what mummy does....and just shoved a teddy in her mouth...it doesn't last long they grow out of it really quick one you find what works for your dog and stick to it every time. He'll want to bite down because of his teeth and he'll also want to play...another method is to stand up straight and turn your back...and only give fuss when he's not doing it...if he starts just do it again, you might end up dizzy but it works....Victoria stillwell....love her


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

Thinking back I can't remember what worked for Zimba, it just eased over time. I know yelping certainly didn't work, he just got more excited. I used to try to have a toy always handy to swop for my leg, arm, bum etc.

He's only 11 weeks, so I think it's pretty normal. It will lessen with time.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> yeah, ive read that thread and tried everything on it, but it seems like after 2 days of doing any of the recommended techniques he starts to get more intense in his biting.


You've hit the nail on the head - he keeps going through an extinction burst!

It works a bit like this... puppy play bites (normal behaviour). This gets a reaction (any reaction - good or bad - can reinforce this behaviour) so he does it more. He learns biting works (it gets attention).
Suddenly biting doesn't seem to work.... pup thinks "why the hell not?" so he tries harder... still no response.... tries harder still.... Yes!! See, it does work (when you give in)

To give you a comparison - what do you do if the TV remote doesn't work first time? Push the bittons harder of course!! the fact that as an intelligent human being you know full well this is pointless, that the batteries need changing etc, is beside the point - your first instinctive reaction is to simply "try harder". Your pup is doing the same thing - and he doesn't have that level of logic to give him an alternative...

I suggest you pick a method and stick to it - for more than 2 days if necessary (shouldn't take much longer though).

Forget all the "corrections" (spray, hitting, etc) these will almost certainly make things worse. ANY attention is likely to reinforce the behaviour, unless your corrections are so severe that they cause pain and fear (which will also make things far worse).

The best option is to ignore the pup when he bites. I don't mean ignore the biting - I mean totally 100% ignore the pup when he does it. Stand up, fold your arms and look away. No speaking, no touching, no eye contact. Nothing. Like he doesn't exist. If he is persistent, walk away. Leave the room and shut the door behind you.
You don't need to stay out long - just don't go back in while he's still fussing. If you go back in and he tries immediately to bite, go straight back out. Repeat.

The important thing is total consistency. NEVER give him attention for biting. Biting must mean that all play, all attention, all good things cease immediately. Yes, as you have noticed his initial response will be to try harder - but this phase is normal and doesn't last. After a few desperate attempts he will get the idea.

Hope that makes sense. Good luck.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Colette said:


> You've hit the nail on the head - he keeps going through an extinction burst!
> 
> It works a bit like this... puppy play bites (normal behaviour). This gets a reaction (any reaction - good or bad - can reinforce this behaviour) so he does it more. He learns biting works (it gets attention).
> Suddenly biting doesn't seem to work.... pup thinks "why the hell not?" so he tries harder... still no response.... tries harder still.... Yes!! See, it does work (when you give in)
> ...


GREAT advice...it works for all negative behaviour too


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2011)

Colette said:


> The best option is to ignore the pup when he bites. I don't mean ignore the biting - I mean totally 100% ignore the pup when he does it. Stand up, fold your arms and look away. No speaking, no touching, no eye contact. Nothing. Like he doesn't exist. If he is persistent, walk away. Leave the room and shut the door behind you.


This is exactly what I did too and it worked really well and really quickly. I would stare purposefully at the ceiling. Worked for attention seeking behaviour like barking etc too.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

When Dougie was a pup tried all the usuals the same as you have (not the spray or tapping nose though) but it didn't work. We made sure there were no toys in the hall and all the doors were shut so when he bit, without saying anything popped him in the hall alone and shut the door & left him for a few minutes. Cured it within a few days


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## dimah (Jul 13, 2011)

Sometimes for us ignoring him doesn't work (tries to nip whatever he can reach to get back our attention) so either putting him out the room or leaving him the room ourselves has really helped. 

He's caught on pretty quickly since then although he still nips occasionally when he's most excited, but there was a definite huge improvement after a week of consistently removing him from the room when he mouthed/nipped. Have to say if we ever were to try a spray bottle or tapping his nose would only make him more excited (and probably not in the happy way), I really wouldn't recommend that method for anyone.


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## momok (Oct 19, 2011)

Yeah, and I hate having to do it which is why i kind of flip flop on the corrections. I start to feel bad and let him chew my sweatshirt if I wont give him my fingers...he's just so cute its hard to deny him the little things in life haha. but it seems that when hes good and tired from fetch or chasing me outside, he doesn't seem as interested in the biting. Our house is an open concept house so it sucks because other than the backyard, which provides ample fun, there is only his crate that i can put him in, as a substitute to putting him/myself in a separate room. is this okay to do? I have heard that crating for punishment isnt the way to go, and i dislike doing it to him, but sometimes he gets to riled up that even if i stand up and walk away from him, he just bites me in the ass...now thats no fun.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I much prefer to teach a completely different replacement behaviour. Ignoring is fine for management, but I want to teach a dog early on to control their emotions, or more precisely, when they get the silly puppy urge to offer X behaviour rather than Y (biting!). 

The replacement behaviour could be anything from calmly standing or sitting in front of you, going to a bed or mat, nose-targeting something etc. It needs to be reinforced a lot so the behaviour becomes 'default' if you will. 

So, say you want to teach a simple 'sit' default. Teach the behaviour normally, going from food luring, to hand signal, to verbal cue until he is responding correctly a lot of the time (80%). Then, hold out a treat or a favourite toy, and wait. Hopefully, at some point, he'll sit, by which you can reward loads. Keep doing this, until he is offering you this all the time, whenever you have something he wants. Increase this to using the sit for everything possible: going out the door, coming to you, for meal etc., etc. until it becomes second nature to him. 

You can then start upping the bar: put him in a sit, and practise increasingly excitable behaviours around him. So you can ask him to sit, walk away, come back, reward. Jog away, reward. Run away, reward. Flail your hands around him, reward etc., etc. Slowly increase the things you do. At any point if he becomes over-excited, put him back in the sit, and tone it down a little, rewarding often (every couple of seconds) to teach him that it is more beneficial to stay in the sit. 

This sounds over-complicated I'm sure, but it will teach him that, no matter what's going on, if he goes into a sit, he'll be rewarded. At the moment, he things nipping you is the key to getting your attention (as it probably was with his littermates) but by teaching a default cue like a sit and then practising games like the above for a few 15 minute sessions each day, he'll learn to channel the excitement into something more acceptable, and something more rewarding for him. It won't happen over night, but I think this really instills good manners into a pup and allows him to control himself a little more.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

momok said:


> Yeah, and I hate having to do it which is why i kind of flip flop on the corrections. I start to feel bad and let him chew my sweatshirt if I wont give him my fingers...he's just so cute its hard to deny him the little things in life haha. but it seems that when hes good and tired from fetch or chasing me outside, he doesn't seem as interested in the biting. Our house is an open concept house so it sucks because other than the backyard, which provides ample fun, there is only his crate that i can put him in, as a substitute to putting him/myself in a separate room. is this okay to do? I have heard that crating for punishment isnt the way to go, and i dislike doing it to him, but sometimes he gets to riled up that even if i stand up and walk away from him, he just bites me in the ass...now thats no fun.


As well as my post above, I would keep a light drag line on him in the house, or at times he usually gets crazy, so you can put him out of the room (no shouting or verbal punishing, just calmly putting him out).

One key is obviously to increase his stimulation: try clicker training, search and retrieve games, or more indepth trick training to keep pushing his stimulation levels.

Don't use the crate for punishment, this needs to be a place he loves being in, not dreads going to. Also, other forms of punishment such as nose taps, or spray bottles, seem good in logic, but not in learning theory. They could either make him more excited as you are reinforcing the behaviour by giving him some kind of attention, or scare him. Many people end of punishing too harshly, and the dog loses trust, which could cause additional problems down the line. Think of the way you'd like to be taught something- it's much better to train a dog what you want him to do (e.g. sit, bed, lie down, relax) on cue than tell him not to do something, as once he realises that he gets rewarded for doing more human-acceptable behaviours, he'll offer them more often. If he just gets punished, he won't know what to do instead.


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## momok (Oct 19, 2011)

Thanks so much for all of your responses. Rottiefan, I am not at all confused, I know exactly what you're talking about! He knows his sit/lay/stay's very well, and for a couple of weeks hes been sitting and pawing (shake) for everything, he's so diligent when I have treats in my hand, doesn't get too excited. NEVER bites my hand when he knows theres treats involved. But i know where you're going with the default idea, its actually something I have been incorporating without realizing it was an actual, usable method haha. I have been petting him around his face, which is where he usually starts to bite, with a treat nearby, and he will immediately stop mouthing my hand when i say no bite or if he stays focused on the treat. i guess it takes a little while to do it this way, but thank you so much for validating something i was just hoping would work. I will definitely start increasing my excitement behavior when i am working on sitting/staying with him. Thanks so much!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i'd also suggest that U go to DogStarDaily website, 
*download* the 2 FREE books, _'Before U Get Ur Puppy'_ & _'After U Get Ur Puppy'_, 
read them cover to cover, & apply the methods as described.

they are excellent for teaching a soft-mouth [bite inhibition] & for socialization, 
as well as the other puppy-lessons [chew-toys, housetraining, crate training]. :thumbup:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

momok said:


> About 3 weeks ago we brought home a GSD, he is now 11 weeks old and doing very well on most of his obedience training, he can sit, lay, shake, stay, hasn't had even one accident in his crate...he's a smart pup. However, I cannot seem to get him to stop biting me. Its not so bad with the rest of the family, but I am his primary caretaker and I get all the teeth...all the time. Things I have tried: loud yelping sounds, taps on the nose, time out, and more recently a spray bottle. The outcome? He just bites harder and harder with each correction, and if I turn around to ignore him he just sinks into the back of my knee, calf, basically wherever he can. Today was day 2 with the spray bottle, and he actually started growling while he was clamping down, with more pressure with every "no!". I could use any bit of help here. Thanks!


Do you play or interact with him different to the rest of the family? Do you ever rough house and play games down with him on the floor? If you do that may be part of your problem. Pups bite bark chase and mount and wrestle in the litter if you are playing rough house games it could be why he is doing it to you and not the family, much like he would a sibling in the litter. If you are I would switch to structured calmer games, Like getting him to retrieve a ball and drop it, and sit and wait for it to be thrown again. Do training sessions with him instead. Wild games can make them hyper, once a pup is hyper and over excited they can go over the top and it can make them mouth and bite more. So try a few day of calmer structured games and training with him, to see if it makes a difference. Reward him and give him attention for the calm behaviour and doing as his told.



momok said:


> yeah, ive read that thread and tried everything on it, but it seems like after 2 days of doing any of the recommended techniques he starts to get more intense in his biting. I mean, its comforting to know that other people have gone through similar stubbornness with their pups, but I just cant find the right method for him. I will say this though, along with the spraying the last few days i also have been spending time intermittently throughout the day to do simple commands with him, "no bite" being one of them, and he always releases his grip on me and calmly sits down to receive his treat, so I know he knows what this means, but if get caught treatless, he just keeps at it even with a firm "no bite" command. Maybe im just expecting too much for his age, but boy do those teeth hurt.


Consistency and following through with the exercise is key with any training whatever it is.
If he goes to bite, have a ragger or toy or a chew, waggle the chew or toy at him, and if he starts to bite and play with the ragger then praise him for doing so. He mouths or bites you instead fold your arm turn your back and as you doing so say OFF. Totally ignore him, leave the room if you have to. when you return, ignore him totally no eye contact talking nothing. Only when he has stayed calm praise and give him attention or resume the game with the ragger. Mouthing or biting you stop it again and leave and repeat the whole process again and aagain if need be. He onlt gets attention when calm, Mouthing and biting gets him ignored and stay ignoring him until your sure. Too soon he will hype up again.
If he still persists, normally I would say put him in another room, let him calm down, let him out and ignore him, and only when he still continues to be calm then call him to you get him to sit and give him attention of resume a game.



momok said:


> also, I just took him to the dog park for the first time over the weekend and he seemed to really mellow out after, ie, no biting.. I don't know if he just got the right amount of energy out that day or something, but I feel like that's something i should make more frequent of an activity.


A bored under exercised young dog, will have excess energy, get hyper and do unwanted behaviour. I would deffinately look at how much exercise your giving him. He needs regular set walks each and every day. How much exercise is he getting every day regularly. If its sadly lacking in time and frequency that could be a big part of your problem. The difference at the weekend makes me suspicious that he may be lacking in exercise.



momok said:


> Yeah, and I hate having to do it which is why i kind of flip flop on the corrections. I start to feel bad and let him chew my sweatshirt if I wont give him my fingers...he's just so cute its hard to deny him the little things in life haha. but it seems that when hes good and tired from fetch or chasing me outside, he doesn't seem as interested in the biting. Our house is an open concept house so it sucks because other than the backyard, which provides ample fun, there is only his crate that i can put him in, as a substitute to putting him/myself in a separate room. is this okay to do? I have heard that crating for punishment isnt the way to go, and i dislike doing it to him, but sometimes he gets to riled up that even if i stand up and walk away from him, he just bites me in the ass...now thats no fun.


You cant Flop out, unless he has the same things regularly asked of him and is given boundaries, or only given boundaries sometimes and allowed to do something a few hours later or the next day its no good. He wont know what his meant to be doing and what he isnt. You cant say hes biting you then give him your fingers of sweatshirt to chew. You have a big powerful dog, or he will be soon, if you dont give him some leadership in the form of traning and teaching him whats right and wrong, he will never learn.

Have just noticed his age 11 weeks. Regarding the exercise general rule of thumb for a large bread for on lead walking on harder surfaces is 5mins per month of life, so he should not be doing more then a couple of 15 minute sessions a day of this type. He still needs to go out for regular exercise though, so as said if its lacking these couple of regular walks can make a difference.


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## momok (Oct 19, 2011)

Sled dog, thanks so much for reading my posts, I find your insights very helpful! I do indeed have a different relationship with him, I romp around with him when he gets bored and wants to play. I think you are spot on with the calmer games, I guess I just thought that he needed to get out the energy playing, but I can see that "mental" games, like doing commands for 10-15 mins also gets him calm, i guess its just a different way to get out that energy. 

As for ignoring him, it does seem to work at times when he gets bored of chewing on my legs. I feel like i need to always wear my toughest denim around him, if i have sweat pants on he will keep chewing and there's no way to get them out of his mouth other than to use my hands to detach his teeth. he usually lets me do this without biting down harder...he just doesnt ever open his mouth to make the process any quicker haha. 

As for the amount of exercise he gets; he hates walks. well, he hates the start of our walk, then once we get a little ways away from he house he seems happy to be out. So generally I give 15 mins of wake up time around the house, then we go for a 30 min walk. He gets home and sleeps for a while, I usually do a little fetch inside the house, or let him chase around a piece of ice which he loves to do, this is probably 4-5 hours after the walk and is preceeded or followed by some 'training time', just re-establishing basic commands..all together, another 45 mins. Then right before bed time for him he gets another walk outside, a shorter 15 min walk. I think this is a good amount of exercise, but I guess I can't be 100% certain. Any ideas if I should amp it up or keep it as is? To note, days that I can get him to do the entire 45 min walk, he is much much calmer and less bitey the rest of the day. ...today was a great day with him. I thank all of you for the suggestions and assurance that this is all normal behavior! Sometimes the frustration just exacerbates the situation, but I could get used to more days like this. 

Leadership...this is definitely something I need to work on. 

Again, thank you so much for your time and thoughtful advice.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

momok said:


> Sled dog, thanks so much for reading my posts, I find your insights very helpful! I do indeed have a different relationship with him, I romp around with him when he gets bored and wants to play. I think you are spot on with the calmer games, I guess I just thought that he needed to get out the energy playing, but I can see that "mental" games, like doing commands for 10-15 mins also gets him calm, i guess its just a different way to get out that energy.
> 
> As for ignoring him, it does seem to work at times when he gets bored of chewing on my legs. I feel like i need to always wear my toughest denim around him, if i have sweat pants on he will keep chewing and there's no way to get them out of his mouth other than to use my hands to detach his teeth. he usually lets me do this without biting down harder...he just doesnt ever open his mouth to make the process any quicker haha.
> 
> ...


You need to watch the length of high impact exercise, large dogs grow really rapidly the growth plates at the end of the bones can be damaged easily. Also GSDs can be known for skeletal problems, So right nutrition and not overexercising rapidly growing bones can help to prevent problems. Try to stick to the 5min per month rule whilst he is rapidly growing for on lead high impact surfaces.

Kongs are good for wind down activities and getting them to amuse themselves. Dog & Cat Toys & Dog Treats - Pet Toys, Dog Chew Toys | KONG Company see section how to Kong it gives you ideas for fllings. Treat Balls and toys are d
good too, you fill them with Kibble and set them to distribute pieces here and there as they nose them about and play. Heres just one of the types available Buster Cube - Home
Most Dogs seem to like stag Bars which are natural and long lasting
Pure Dog | Stagbar antler dog chews | natural dog treats | organic dog snacks | hypoallergenic dog chews | long-lasting dog chews | teeth cleaning dog chews | low fat dog treats. Maybe getting some of these will help with the chewing. Chewing is a great de-stresser for dogs, and of course when his teething he will need stuff to chew. Sometimes if there is a lack of chewies at teething time the mouthing and nipping gets even worse for the duration.

I see what your saying about the chewing on your trackies, thing is though you trying to to pull them back with his mouth clamped around a big chumk of them is just turning it into an even bigger game of tug, You and your trackie bottoms are just becoming a giant tug toy Same with the chewing on the sleeves. Pulling them back turns it into tug of war. Your of course trying to get them back but to him its just a game to join in even more and hang on too.

other things you can do with him to use his brain, is sniffing games. If you use high value treats that pong a bit, like liver based stuff and even bits of hotdog, strong cheese, you can hide bits about the place for him to sniff out and find, if you have any old plastic flower pots you can can make a game of it in the garden and hide smelly treats under them to see if he can find them.
If you give him bursts of activity, be it training, walk, scent game whatever, then give him a wind down activity inbetween he should be a lot better. Pups usually have bursts of activity wear themselves out and then periods of rest.
Some wont quit either even when they need to rest, that can cause bad nippy growly behaviour too in an overtired pup. So His wind done periods inbetween are just as important as his activity. I think if you do the alternate activity/wind down periods and try a few days with the more structured training/play and his regularly spaced walks too, Im betting you will see some improvement in a few days. Good thing might be to teach him the leave command too.

Have you thought about taking him to a traning class? It would certainly be good for him to socialise with other people and dogs in a controlled environment. You would learn things too on a weekly basis which you can then practice at home on his home sessions. More importantly you would have the hands on back up of a trainer for any quirks or probs along the way.
GSDs or some can be quite suspicious of people and guarding by nature, so socilisation and training is very important. Best time is now, while they are more receptive and eager to please. Not forgetting too he is going to grown into a big lump What seems endearing and funny now wont be when hes around 40Kgs. If you want to consider training classes Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK
E-Mail [email protected] Tel: 01285 810811 will put you in contact with Association of pet Dog trainers. They only use Kind,fair and effective methods.
All members have to be assessed abide by a code of practice and keep their education up to date with traning methods. So contacting them should find you a decent class in your area.


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## momok (Oct 19, 2011)

I have thought of classes, but I am here in the US, and I guess all the places I was looking into were asking for pups no younger than 12 weeks, which he is soon approaching, but I am also thinking of doggie daycare for once a week or so. This will give him a nice way to socialize with new people, new situations and of course, new puppies! I must say, he is doing much better today as well, I think that I need to be more patient and realize when he is wound up and take him for a walk or in the front yard for a bit, which he loves because he knows that I _have_ to be with him, which is not the case for the fenced in backyard. Thank you so much for that information about his bones! Never would have crossed my mind! When we go on walks he alternates between walking on the grassy side and the sidewalk, just today we went for an off leash walk and he did brilliantly. He is so damn smart!...now if he would only remember how delicate my skin is!

PS. any tips on a puppy like him meeting my cat? Kitty is an old man now and he is horribly shy and scared of everything, even the doorbell. He has sniffed at the pup while he slept, and for the past two days we have had them meet, but mickey, my cat, just freezes up and doesnt try to defend himself against the puppys nips (I only let one nip happen, on the ear, and only because i thought he was going in for a lick).

So far, I know to only have them meet while the puppy is in downtime mode and not full of energy, and also to have some treats handy so he can have something positive to focus on while he is interacting with the cat. He seems to be very happy to have another furry resident living with him, but I am more nervous for my cat. I want him to not spend his entire life hiding upstairs because hes afraid.

Anyone else ever deal with this? Just wondering if its time that the cat needs, or if I should have them meet more often?

Quick cat background...when we moved into a new house, it took him a year to explore the upstairs part. He doesn't ever come out from under the bed when we have guests over, and he doesn't even approach me (who he has lived with for 12 years) when I come back home from college for at least 4 days.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

momok said:


> I have thought of classes, but I am here in the US, and I guess all the places I was looking into were asking for pups no younger than 12 weeks, which he is soon approaching, but I am also thinking of doggie daycare for once a week or so. This will give him a nice way to socialize with new people, new situations and of course, new puppies! I must say, he is doing much better today as well, I think that I need to be more patient and realize when he is wound up and take him for a walk or in the front yard for a bit, which he loves because he knows that I _have_ to be with him, which is not the case for the fenced in backyard. Thank you so much for that information about his bones! Never would have crossed my mind! When we go on walks he alternates between walking on the grassy side and the sidewalk, just today we went for an off leash walk and he did brilliantly. He is so damn smart!...now if he would only remember how delicate my skin is!
> 
> PS. any tips on a puppy like him meeting my cat? Kitty is an old man now and he is horribly shy and scared of everything, even the doorbell. He has sniffed at the pup while he slept, and for the past two days we have had them meet, but mickey, my cat, just freezes up and doesnt try to defend himself against the puppys nips (I only let one nip happen, on the ear, and only because i thought he was going in for a lick).
> 
> ...


One good thing is the cat doesnt seem to have run. Thats when the trouble usually really starts the cat takes off which makes it more interesting and the prey/chase drive kicks in so the dog wants to chase more. The cat then becomes more scared and vicious circle.

Dont suppose you have crate trained pup? Thats often a good way, crate train the pup first so he is happy and relaxed in his crate, and after as you quite rightly said got rid of excess energy. You then bring/allow the cat to come into the room. The dog obviously cant get to the cat and the cats usually realise the og cant get to them. You then do short introductions that way, not long enough for the pup to get hyped or the cat to get stressed, call a halt before then, praise the dog and treat for remaining calm too. You just build up the amount of time "they are together" in this way. Next step would be to have the dog on lead and get them used to being in the same vacinity without the crate, again build up the time until neither are particularly concerned. Obviously the dogs on lead so can be kept at a distance still and as they both relax you can allow the dog still on lead nearer access. Not the quickest method as you have to do it at their pace but it usually works, especially if the cats not already been chased by the dog. If you dont intend to crate train pup, which is completely fine maybe you could try stage two with the lead and keeping him well away from cat at first. remember to give hm lots of treats for being calm and not focusing on the cat. In fact you can use treats or his favourite toy actually as a distraction in the early meetings.
Worth a try anyway.


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## momok (Oct 19, 2011)

He is crate trained, he just doesnt like going into it much unless its bedtime, and he goes into it fine then and doesn't make a fuss. I have done a "meet" with them in this way, him inside the crate, the cat with me right outside of it. The cat does run away when i stop petting him, but i hold onto the dogs collar and he doesnt really chase him which is strange because he cant help chase my legs when i walk haha, but he hasnt mastered the stairs so the cat always goes up there and knows thats a safe place. Interestingly, the cat will just run up the stairs and watch the dog from the top step and the dog just watched the cat from the bottom, just observing which i guess is great because hes not freaking the cat out. i think based on your response, which i am grateful for, thank you! they seem to be doing okay with each other. I will keep the treat thing in mind, because the first time i had them meet without a crate, i had a treat in my hand and the dog was more focused on that than on the cat which is fantastic, however today i didnt grab a treat first and he was getting very riled up with seeing the cat. My cat can't even stand me petting him too much unless of course he wants to be petted, so i guess i cant expect too much love for an excited puppy!


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## edidasa (May 7, 2011)

SOUNDS LIKE A NICE PUP.

Why the hell are you correcting him for biting..... these dogs are bred for this behaviour... either way, puppies are puppies, and you shouldn't be correcting them or you'll end up with a dog that is messed up.

1. Redirect redirect redirect - teach him to bite tugs, leather rags, cloths, and MOVE THEM ABOUT. You stand still!!!

2. Don't react to his biting. Stand still!!! Dogs don't bite inanimate objects.

3. The final final option is to physically correct him. However, you SHOULD be having A LOT of redirection already.

Stop yelping, you are encouraging him. Bite = reaction, bite = reaction, bite = fun for me!!!!

Sounds like a nice puppy, don't ruin him by confusing him.



momok said:


> About 3 weeks ago we brought home a GSD, he is now 11 weeks old and doing very well on most of his obedience training, he can sit, lay, shake, stay, hasn't had even one accident in his crate...he's a smart pup. However, I cannot seem to get him to stop biting me. Its not so bad with the rest of the family, but I am his primary caretaker and I get all the teeth...all the time. Things I have tried: loud yelping sounds, taps on the nose, time out, and more recently a spray bottle. The outcome? He just bites harder and harder with each correction, and if I turn around to ignore him he just sinks into the back of my knee, calf, basically wherever he can. Today was day 2 with the spray bottle, and he actually started growling while he was clamping down, with more pressure with every "no!". I could use any bit of help here. Thanks!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

momok said:


> He is crate trained, he just doesnt like going into it much unless its bedtime, and he goes into it fine then and doesn't make a fuss. I have done a "meet" with them in this way, him inside the crate, the cat with me right outside of it. The cat does run away when i stop petting him, but i hold onto the dogs collar and he doesnt really chase him which is strange because he cant help chase my legs when i walk haha, but he hasnt mastered the stairs so the cat always goes up there and knows thats a safe place. Interestingly, the cat will just run up the stairs and watch the dog from the top step and the dog just watched the cat from the bottom, just observing which i guess is great because hes not freaking the cat out. i think based on your response, which i am grateful for, thank you! they seem to be doing okay with each other. I will keep the treat thing in mind, because the first time i had them meet without a crate, i had a treat in my hand and the dog was more focused on that than on the cat which is fantastic, however today i didnt grab a treat first and he was getting very riled up with seeing the cat. My cat can't even stand me petting him too much unless of course he wants to be petted, so i guess i cant expect too much love for an excited puppy!


Just keep trying them with shortish safe meetings, with a bit of time and patience it could well pay off. Obviously goes without saying, dont leave them anywhere unsupervised just in case. A lot of pups have got damaged eyes from cats they have chased into positions they cant escape from.Might be an idea to do some evening meeting once pups settled and happy and content in his crate, if he goes in there then happily and its part of his routine, use it to your advantage for introducing the cat.

Its fortunate in two ways that pups not got the hang of the stairs yet, not just for the cats sake. Going up and down stairs can have an impact on the fast growing bones too. So I would discourage it for two reasons the cats space/safety and pups joints. It might even be an idea to fit a dog control gate, fits like ababy gate but higher an more robust. Ive a feeling you can even get them with a cat flap in it, if the cats used to cat flaps.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Re the cat, have you looked here?

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/cat_dog_introduction.pdf

Re the biting have you looke here?

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/teachingbiteinhibition.pdf

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/biteinhibitionfuzzyterm.pdf

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Insights into Puppy Mouthing

The Bite Stops Here by Dr Ian Dunbar


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Only thing that works with mine is shouting like you are about to die- NOT yelping in a high pitched voice as this just equals excitement, seriously meaning it ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH- seriously wounded/scarey voice- expression on face like the world is about to end (dogs read our faces too) and then walking out of the room and timeout for 5 mins.


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

With any dog, the nipping and biting needs to be sorted straight away or it could get out of hand.

The most effective way to stop a puppy from biting you is to put your hand in further and keep it there until he decides that he doesn't like it anymore and spits you out. If he's biting something other than your hand then you can grab hold of his jaw, putting your thumb under the tongue and first two fingers under his chin and holding it firm enough so he can't just pull away, hold it until he stops biting down and tell him NO. Not many people feel comfortable doing this but you should ask yourself if you would be comfortable with a full grown GSD clamped onto your arm 

Back this up with the Gentle command. Offer a treat but get him to sit or lay down first, this will put you in a position of authority, then go to give the treat saying the word gentle, if he snaps for it, then say NO and move it so he can't take it (don't yank your hand back cos he'll think it's a game) you may need to repeat this a few times at first but only give him the treat when he is really gentle.

As with any dog, you will need everyone in the family to do these things too so that he knows it's not just you that he's not allowed to bite.


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## momok (Oct 19, 2011)

Thank you everyone for the comments! 

1. The cat and him will never ever be alone together mostly because we always have an eye on the pup, if i can't see or hear him, he most likely is getting into some trouble, so im always watching, also, the cat is a mastermind at hiding so i am not too worried. I think they will grow accustomed to each other in due time. Crate meetings for the future tho. Thanks for that tip. 

2. I knew people were going to get on me for correcting his biting. This is my defense; I weakly used the spray bottle because I have absolutely no balls and hated to think what he would think of me if i did, so i would only use it when he had my fingers in a death grip and was pulling my hand with his teeth, which f--ing kills, so he needs to know to not do it. I am not trying to 'ruin' this dog, i am trying to teach him to not use him mouth for attention. My hands and arms are scarred up already, and there is no way this will be acceptable behavior when he is 90lbs. Also, I should mention, he was starting this growling business before I ever used the bottle. He gets riled up then he gets pissed that I want it to stop. 

I have noticed a huge decrease in his mouthing/biting, i have mostly used ignoring him (at the mercy of my calves and behind) and giving him treats when he resists the urge to mouth when i am petting him, as well giving him treats when he listens to the 'no bite' command. 

Maybe I am wrong on this, maybe not, but I do believe that at times you must be firm. This goes for children, puppies, whatever...I don't think it would be fair to him to let him bite because he is bred for that purpose, because in many states there are no 'second chance' laws, this could mean a death sentence for my dog if I write off his biting as a hereditary norm. 

Again, thank you all for your advice. I'm very glad I came across this forum, I have read many other help forums about biting but it never seemed to click. With the explanations from some of you, and the advice from all, it has made this training period a lot less stressful, thank you!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

momok said:


> Thank you everyone for the comments!
> 
> 1. The cat and him will never ever be alone together mostly because we always have an eye on the pup, if i can't see or hear him, he most likely is getting into some trouble, so im always watching, also, the cat is a mastermind at hiding so i am not too worried. I think they will grow accustomed to each other in due time. Crate meetings for the future tho. Thanks for that tip.
> 
> ...


Personally If you are getting somewhere now I wouldnt change the methods again just carry on being consistent if you have noticed a decrease in the biting and he is an all round happier dog and so are you and you are getting somewhere. I would forget all the Mr Macho stuff. Recent info on here using the Mr Macho methods, have been to not back down and take food off a dog, that was already growling and protecting a pigs ear. Or giving food and taking it back to train a pup. Funilly enough there was a dog training section on a programme on the BBC with a trainer dealing with a dog with food aggression in the same sort of way. It caused an outcry from all the major Animal charities and a lot of prominent trainers in the UK. The training feature on this particular programme was then axed. Far too late for a few dogs, whos owners had copied and used this method, Ones kid had got bitten and the dog was put down, and another dog just narrowly escaped the same fate, after being goaded into giving a bite. IMO telling people to use confrontational methods without even being able to see of assess a dog on the internet or anywhere else is both dangerous and irresponsible. A lot of methods these trainers are using such as Prong collars and E-collars are against the advice of all the major animal and welfare charities in the UK, and also against dog training organisations like COAPE and APDT. In fact in wales using things like E-Collars is agains the law. Kind but firm fair methods can and do work, they may take longer then instantly zapping a dog with an electric shock and other Heavy duty punishment methods, but once learned using these methods the teachings stay with the dog. On occasion the more adversive methods look like they work and work quickly, but only often just suppress the behaviour for a time, so it re-surfaces or another unwanted behaviour forms instead.

You need to teach a dog with leadership in the way of firm but fair kind training, making it clear what is acceptable and whats not. So at the end of the day you have a well behaved dog but also a family pet. You dont want a guard dog or a personal security dog I take it. So just stick to what your doing. I sense some of the newer comments have upset you ignore them if they have. Sounds like your doing a good job now and getting somewhere.
Keep us posted how you are doing.


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## momok (Oct 19, 2011)

Sled dog, you are the best


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

momok said:


> Sled dog, you are the best


Dont worry just keep up what your doing as I said, if you have seen an improvement in the dog, then the dogs telling you that you are doing OK.
Just be consistent put in the time, make sure he is exercised every day, that you do several bonding and training sessions, and basically any behaviour you dont want and thats not acceptable, then he gets ignored or put him out if needs be. He doesnt get any attention, treats etc. unless he is doing as you ask,or for calm good behaviour. Make sure he has a good supply of Kongs,chews,treat balls that I mentioned to chew on and destress and use in his wind down between activity time. When he is calm and sitting happily chewing make sure he gets praised then too. Too often we forget when dogs are actually being good and calm and relaxed that its something we should be praising them for. Once he has got a good structure and routine, and knows whats required of him, and what he cant get away with Im sure he will be fine. Laying foundations now is really important, because they can go through a teenage stage around 6/7months onwards, where even saintly ones before can go a bit off track, so the more you can teach him now and get him on track the better. I would look for a training class though still. One that uses firm fair kind reward based methods. That way you will actually have hands on support too and help with training that you can practice at home through the week.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

momok said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> As for ignoring him, it does seem to work at times when he gets bored of chewing on my legs.
> I feel like i need to always wear my toughest denim around him, if i [wear] sweat pants, *he'll keep chewing
> ...


i'd lay $10 that if U stand STILL & park a pea-sized tidbit of Provolone or Mozzarella under his nose, his teeth 
will immediately release those pants - AND WHEN HE DOES, *give him the tidbit - After all, he LET GO, right?* 
following that by asking him to "sit" with a palm-up hand signal gets an alternative behavior, which is 
immediately rewarded by another tidbit; now he's looking at U, he's calm, & he's paying attention.

try it & see.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

shazalhasa said:


> * emphasis added - *
> 
> The *most effective way to stop a puppy from biting... is to put your hand in further & keep it there,
> until he decides that he doesn't like it anymore & spits you out. *


i would discourage this as a method VERY strongly. :thumbdown:

A - 
U've just taught the pup that hands approaching his mouth are bad.

B - 
U've just taught the pup that JAWS on hands or other body-parts are OK - 
he just has to 'let go' *before* he's verbally scolded, physically punished, etc.

C - 
now U have a pup who snaps like a Collie & instantly lets go - *Congratulations!* 
he's going to slash people instead of bruising & puncturing them. 


shazalhasa said:


> * emphasis added - *
> 
> If [he bites] something other than your hand, then... *grab ...his jaw, put your thumb under his tongue
> & first two fingers under his chin; hold it firmly*... so he can't just pull away, ...*until he stops biting down*
> & tell him NO.


this is the worst advice i've seen on PF-uk in at least a month.

the vet, the groomer, the vet-tech, the dog-walker, & ANYONE who ever must handle this dog will curse U.

* he now firmly believes that human-hands *hurt* - he cannot allow them to get close to his head, 
he must defend himself before they get a chance to grab him.

* dental or oral exams; GIVING MEDS; eye-exams; ear treatment or ear-cleaning; collars on or off; 
CLIPPING ON A LEASH; catching the dog if he's gone astray... are now dangerous propositions, depending 
on who U are, how well the dog knows U, & just how good U are at reading a dog's emotional state / intentions.

* here's a thought: CAP THIS BAD LESSON by teaching him that 'growls are punished'. 
now U have a dog who will not even warn, but who deeply distrusts or fears human-hands anywhere north 
of his shoulders or chest.

Odds are excellent that someone, sometime, will be sent to the E-R for stitches after casually trying to rub his ears, 
pet his head, hold his collar, etc - & the person *who gave this advice is the person who should IMO be sued, 
for the injuries resulting, for the behavioral damage to the dog, & for the loss of their companion - 
as the odds are also excellent that this dog will be dead, soon thereafter.*

i hope the OP has more common-sense than to even attempt this once - let alone USE IT to _"train"_. 
i will state categorically that this is nothing short of abuse, & will end in a bad outcome - having seen the results 
many times, i am very sure of this statement.


shazalhasa said:


> * emphasis added - *
> 
> *Not many people feel comfortable doing this but... ask yourself if you'd be comfy with a full-grown GSD
> clamped on your arm*


this is not an EITHER / OR outcome. :nonod: It's a strawman argument.

U can effectively teach a pup bite-inhibition [a soft mouth] *without* grabbing his tongue, 
pinching his lower palate between thumb & fingers as above, or any other painful, scary, intrusive 
or uncomfortable handling on Ur part.

it's not only UN-necessary; it's actually counter-productive: it results in much-worse behaviors, like ducking 
whenever someone reaches for the collar or the dog's head or face or ears, or worse yet, SNAPPING 
at any stranger who attempts to touch the collar, ear, neck, mouth, face, etc.

that a dog who's been given these bad-lessons _*lets their owner or family members*_ touch her/him 
does not at all mean that same dog will tolerate the vet, a groomer, a good Samaritan trying to catch the dog, etc, 
doing precisely the same thing; dogs may suffer the familiar person doing something they dislike intensely, 
but punish anyone they don't know well who attempts the same maneuver.



shazalhasa said:


> * emphasis added - *
> 
> As with any dog, you'll need *everyone in the family to do these things...* so that he knows
> it's not just you that he's not allowed to bite.


oh, GREAT - U want the 5-YO to grab the dog's mouth by shoving a thumb under his tongue, & painfully 
squeezing the mucous membranes of his lower jaw as if he was trapped by a pair of pliers?! :mad2:

_Children are not adults; they cannot imitate adult co-ordination, strength, or grasp, 
their hands are smaller & weaker, THEY are smaller & weaker & clumsier - they cannot & SHOULD NOT 
ever be told to punish, 'correct', manhandle or coerce a dog of any size, or for that matter, no child 
should ever PUNISH or force or manhandle or coerce *any pet*, no matter what the species._ :nono:


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

This is the method that I've used on all of my dogs and none of them are afraid of my hands going near their mouths, they have all been shown and have no issues with strangers (judges) examining their mouths either.

Nowhere in my post did I once suggest to hurt the dog, holding firmly is not the same as holding it harshly and/or causing pain.

When I was using another forum someone suggested that the owners of a pyrenean mountain dog who was a bit tasty should just turn their back on the dog when it tried to bite. They did this and the dog jumped up and bit them on the back... is that really the kind of advice you expect me to agree with ??????????? It's stupid and dangerous !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had trained my OH's pyrenean using the exact methods described on my post and he went from fluffy crocodile forever snapping at us and the other dogs to a beautiful docile gentle giant in just a few short weeks. When taking treats from our hands he would use just his lips and tongue which was great for us but even better for him was the time he was choking on a piece of cellophane wrapper that he'd picked up from somewhere. I had to pretty much dive down his throat to pull it out, now bear in mind that this was a 10 month old giant breed dog with teeth an inch long. I was able to open his mouth, put my face right upto... almost in his mouth to see what he was choking on and then pull it out, so my devilish and cruel methods probably helped save his life.

So the next time you get on your soap box and start dishing out the red dots, perhaps you ought to consider whether you know what the *&$% you are talking about :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

shazalhasa said:


> Nowhere in my post did I once suggest to hurt the dog, *holding firmly* is not the same
> as holding it harshly and/or causing pain.


ask Ur spouse [or any other adult: dentist, doctor, a nurse, etc] to FIRMLY hold their thumb 
*under Ur tongue* using their fingers *under Ur jaw* firmly-enuf so that U cannot spit it out, 
pull away, turn aside, etc.

IOW they *Hold Ur jaw from below & lower-palate under Ur tongue* so firmly that U cannot 
escape, avoid, or resist. *then come back, & assure all of us that it was PAINLESS.*

mucus-membranes heal very quickly, but they are also very delicate & heavily enervated - 
meaning LOTS OF NERVES & loads of small blood-vessels. If cut they bleed a lot; they bruise easily. 
they are SENSITIVE areas.


shazalhasa said:


> I had trained my OH's Pyrenean using the exact methods described on my post... he went from fluffy crocodile,
> forever snapping at us & the other dogs, to a beautiful docile gentle giant in just a few short weeks.


Pyrenees are not "known" for being *snapping crocodiles* of any sort whatever. 
BCs, Aussies, GSDs, BSDs of all 4 varieties, terrierrrists & their mimics [minPins, Chis, etc] 
are all among the truly-notorious 'snappers' who can be almost nonstop biting maniacs as pups. 
obviously, working-line herding breeds are particularly notorious; so are the truly-insane border-patrol BSD-Mals 
& Dutchies who are so popular in bite-sports.

what U can get away with in a Pyr - a more-tolerant & less working-lines LGB than, say, an Anatolian or Kuvasz, 
let alone the primitive Kangal or Ovtcharka-types - *is not necessarily what U can get away with* 
in any of those gator-jawed snappers, who frequently bloody their handlers even before they are 3-MO, 
by puncturing them with their needle milk-teeth.


shazalhasa said:


> ...the next time you get on your soap box and start dishing out the red dots, perhaps you ought to consider
> whether you know what the *&$% you are talking about :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:


after over 30-years working with dogs, i've seen the results of THAT SPECIFIC ADVICE many times over.

i have seen it in dogs that i met as 9-MO monsters who snapped every time anyone reached for a collar. 
i've seen it AT THE VET'S - when a short-sighted, impatient, stoopid vet-tech DID THAT TO A NERVOUS PUP, 
in his first vet-visit [idiot woman!], & that somewhat-shy Aussie became a confirmed biter by 6-MO. 
he very nearly lost his life, & was luckily taken in by rescue when the owner gave him up to the city-shelter.

i have seen what i described: ducking, cringing, flinching, freezing, snapping, & full-on BITES - 
as a direct consequence of grabbing jaws, tongues, & / or muzzles on a normal, mouthy puppy of many breeds.

for that precise reason, i very strongly advocate that *no one* use such methods to "teach a pup NOT to bite", 
as they are far more-likely to teach that pup TO BITE with force, if not now later, as a teen or adult dog, 
OR IF THEY DON'T BITE, to evade handling or avoid strangers who reach for them, resist exams, 
panic when someone tries to treat an ear, etc.

i make no apologies; what U describe is a success with one dog, of a fairly tolerant breed - Giants are not 
typically reactive as a group; & this cannot be broadly applied to 'any breed of dog', let alone to those breeds 
which, like terrierrists, are extremely thin-skinned, highly reactive, & memorably snappy.

safety is my paramount concern: for the pup, for the family, their community, the vet, & so on. 
the dog's very LIFE may be at stake; teaching a pup to trust human handling is an absolute imperative, IMO & IME.

dogs who cannot be safely handled, treated when hurt or ill, caught when running stray, etc, live short lives. 
HANDLING is a mandatory life-skill. Teaching pups that handling is scary, uncomfortable or needlessly 
long-drawn & confining, are all counter-productive tactics. Short, happy, co-operative sessions, 
with frequent breaks & frequent small treats for compliance, are my strongly-advocated suggestion.

U of course are free to do anything U please with Ur pups or dogs. 
the consequences are entirely outside anyone else's control. :001_smile: Good luck!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> IOW they Hold Ur jaw from below & lower-palate under Ur tongue so firmly that U cannot
> escape, avoid, or resist. then come back, & assure all of us that it was PAINLESS.


Guess who was stupid enough to try it? 

OOOUUUCH! Yes it hurts and it's still throbbing now.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> originally posted by *LeashedForLife* -
> 
> IOW they Hold Ur jaw from below & lower-palate under Ur tongue so firmly that U cannot
> escape, avoid, or resist. Then come back, & assure all of us that it was PAINLESS.





Elles said:


> Guess who was stupid enough to try it?
> OOOUUUCH! Yes, it hurts - and it's still throbbing now.


as i said: 
mucus-membranes are delicate, with loads of blood-vessels & LOTS of nerves. 
the tongue, inner-lips, gums, inner-cheeks, throat, etc, are thin-skinned, moist, easily injured areas - 
the body MONITORS them carefully, to protect the tissues from burning, cuts, infection, & other injuries.

all those nerves are in part, because of the very-dense blood-vessels thru-out the mucus membranes. 
early notice that the area is being hurt lets the animal react immediately, before more damage is done. 
it minimizes bleeding / burns: the animal STOPS whatever is causing pain, & the injury is not made worse.

it's also why a minor error by our dentist when we're in the chair gets a big reaction from the patient: 
a little bump, a small poke, a cold draft, HURTS out of all proportion to the size of the injury.

I always try to be very conscious of the dog's feelings while handling, ESPECIALLY pups - 
I don't frustrate a puppy by lengthy grooming, nor 10-minutes or more of restraint, etc. 
I also avoid soap in eyes & ears when bathing, & i don't poke sensitive areas or pull hair! I try to be thoughtful. 
it pays off enormously when the dog MUST be handled, groomed, treated for an injury, dosed with meds, 
have a cut cleaned, & so on.


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## madonna (Jun 28, 2010)

hi mine is 13 weeks now had him since 7 im trying all the things screaming when he nips shutting him out , giving him toys etc, but worryingly now when i tell him to stop or get off the sofa he barks and bites ,like hes annoyed or frustrated ,this worrys me as hes a dalmatian and will get big ..is this normal puppy behaviour as his nips hurt ,he also bites my son although i watch him all the time ,he s just so quick ..how many walks should he be having a day ,is it down to exercise .really want to get on top of this before he gewts too big .


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