# pediatric S/N or pediatric desex



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i am beginning this thread b/c someone on the *against spaying + neutering* thread the other day remarked that they would like to see some discussion of age + desex. 
so i am going to look for medical articles re pediatric desex, or S/N of pups and kittens, typically done by shelters and rescues before young pets are released for adoption.

Early Spay/neuter

this link has articles by 2 vets in the body, 
* ESP - Early Sterilization Program, By Dr. Dick Rosebrock - his experiences of pre-pubertal desex;

* EARLY NEUTERING OF THE DOG AND CAT, 
by W PRESTON STUBBS, Gainesville, Fla; KATHARINE R. SALMERI, Red Bank, NJ; and MARK S. BLOOMBERG, Gainesville, Fla
Early neutering of the dog and cat by Stubbs, Salmeri and Bloomberg. 
1995. In: Bonagura (ed), Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy, XII, 
WB Saunders & Co., Phila., pp.1037-1040.

the 2nd is a chapter from a vet-textbook.

there are also approx a dozen links to articles at the bottom, supplied by *chromadane*.

NOTE from article #1 - 


> *bold + underline added - *
> 
> _ On a personal note, I heartily endorse this program also. I have been actively participating in ESP since 1984
> and have performed ESP on approximately 1000 animals. We have not noted any negative results, in fact,
> ...


*

so... this vet breeds Irish Wolfhounds + offers pediatric-desex on every pup, without any added co$t to the buyer. 
9 pups of 25 total in 2 litters were ped-desex, and at 28-MO + 18-MO their owners have reported no problems.*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*PEDIATRIC SPAYING & NEUTERING 
by James Snyder, DVM; 
Diplomate of the American College of Theriogenology 
(Veterinary Reproduction)* 
Pediatric Spaying



> from June 24, 2002 -
> 
> _ Conventionally the age of spay (ovariohysterectomy) or neuter (orchidectomy) in dogs and cats is six months or older.
> Unfortunately, good intentions of reducing the pet population with neuter procedures has met with less than satisfactory
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

from the Columbus Dog-Connection page on pedspayneuter.htm - 


> *bold added - *
> 
> _Statement from the American Veterinary Medical Association (AMVA)
> 
> ...


so at least a few 'early-adopters' were doing pediatric S/N in 1950 - 60-years ago.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

from *Columbus Dog-Connection* of Columbus, Ohio - an all-breed 501-c-3 non-profit breed rescue - 
Early Spay & Neuter

selected quote from *tracy land, DVM* - 
re former-standard age for desex, current-standard, and what's pediatric 


> *bold added - *
> 
> _*Pediatric spay/neuter is now* considered *prior to four months*, with the *standard age moving rapidly from six months to four*._


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

here is a woefully ignorant and misinformed owner - :nonod: 
with a very sad story of 2 dogs who had/have serious health issues: 
Best Age to Neuter or Spay | Cesar Millan



> *bold added - *
> 
> _ Wed, 01/27/2010 - 2:59pm  pamelad
> neutering a male pup
> ...


this owner is blaming desex for the 1st dog's lymphoma - which is not a rare cancer, and is often very aggressive - 
the dog was desexed at 12-MO so there is NO connection between pediatric S/N and his dog whatever.

i am not sure exactly what he is *connecting* with his new Lab-pup + the cataracts, but surgery is very, 
very successful at restoring sight by removing cataracts - even to dogs who were born with them. 
so i am confused by the statement that the dog **will be** completely blind in 6 to 9-mos; surely in half a year, 
U could save or get the $$ to remove the cataracts? fund-raise? sell something?

blaming cancer on desex is a very shaky conclusion - 
many cancers come along with AGE, and desex keeps dogs alive longer - which means they grow older, 
and the risk of cancer grows with each year they age.

do U want an intact-dog who dies young and cancer-free - 
or a desexed dog who lives a long-life, and develops cancer?

there are also breeds in which cancer is MUCH more common and strikes young - 
Rotts for just one example; Goldens, for another.

no research-study has yet followed ped-S/N dogs vs pubertal-desex dogs for a long enuf time to tease-out cancer odds 
associated with the different ages at desex - AND they would have to weight the cancer-odds in various breeds; 
personally, i would not include cancer-prone breeds at all [those who often develop cancers under 4-YO] 
as they would massively confuse the data, and muddy any real statistical differences in risk, pediatric vs pubertal.

i hope we get some more long-term studies with good data - soon. 
clear differentials of risk are of huge benefit for decision-making. :thumbup1:

cheers, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colorado State Univ; 
Last updated on April 23, 2004; Author: R. Bowen
email to [email protected]

Early Sterilization in Dogs and Cats * - bold* added -


> _ Early Sterilization in Dogs and Cats -
> From the standpoint of effectively controlling pet populations, the best time for sterilizing dogs and cats
> is prior to puberty, which eliminates any possibility of the animal producing offspring.
> Animal shelters and humane organizations which adopt young animals have long had policies that call
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

this is the entire article - 
Other Health Considerations



> _Rebuttal to Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete
> 
> *Lisa M. Howe, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS*
> Associate Professor, Small Animal Surgery Co-Chief
> ...


to be CONTINUED in Pt-II


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

here is the rest of the article, With the Refs - 


> _ Other Health Considerations
> 
> Dr. Zink mentions other health considerations that should be considered when deciding whether the canine athlete should undergo gonadectomy at, or before, 6 months of age. Dr. Zink states: A number of studies have shown that there is an increase in the incidence of female urinary incontinence in dogs spayed early, and gives one reference for this (Stocklin-Gautschi, 2001). Indeed, there have been several studies that have demonstrated an increased incidence of urinary incontinence in dogs spayed early, as well as a study that demonstrated a much higher incidence of urinary incontinence (20.1%) in bitches spayed after the first estrus, as compared to those spayed before the first estrus (Arnold, 1992). In fact, in the reference (Stocklin-Gautschi, 2001) that Dr. Zink quotes, the authors go on to interpret the findings of their study in relation to similarly performed studies, and then state in the discussion: A comparison of the present results with those of Arnold, et al. (1992) indicates that the risk of urinary incontinence is lower in early spayed bitches than in bitches spayed after the first oestrus, but that the clinical signs of the affected animals are significantly more pronounced. The authors continue and state: However, assuming that most incontinent bitches respond well to medication, this factor is of minor importance. This relative disadvantage of early spaying is negligible when compared with the benefits, such as lower incidence of urinary incontinence and the protection against mammary tumours. On the other hand, the recent study of 1842 dogs by Spain, et al., demonstrated that there was an increased incidence of urinary incontince in female dogs, with the risk being greatest in females gonadectomized before 3 months of age, compared with those gonadectomized at, or after, 3 months of age (Spain, 2004). Based upon their findings, Spain concludes: Because urinary incontinence was greater among puppies gonadectomized before 3 months of age and incontinence can be a lifelong condition requiring ongoing treatment, it is reasonable to conclude that female dogs should not be gonadectomized until at least 3 to 4 months of age. The authors continue: This may be particularly prudent for a shelter that does not have an excess of puppies and is focused on reducing medical and behavioral conditions that could lead to relinquishment of adolescent and adult dogs. Conversely, for shelters with excess puppies, the advantages of gonadectomy of all dogs before adoption may outweigh the risk of urinary incontinence.
> 
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
I am reviving this old thread because so many Qs have come up recently about pediatric desex, AKA juvenile or "early" desex, generally defined as before 4-MO in pups & kittens.
.
I'm not sure why so many ppl have a knee-jerk reaction that this is barbaric; castrating livestock is often done in the field or barn, with no anaesthetic, minimal asepsis, & as early as possible, preferably when the calf / colt / pig / ram lamb, etc, is only days-old.
It's done early *because* they bleed less, there are fewer nerves / less *EDIT: post-op *pain, the incision is smaller as there's minimal development, & so on. Waiting "till they're older" only means more genital development, more bleeding, more pain, & more risk. 
In the case of horses, some folks put off gelding till the colt is a yearling or older, in order to get more muscle & bone before he's gelded - BUT they must weigh the increased risk of blood loss, the greater pain, etc, & at that age, it must be done by a vet, even if it's an open field-surgery in cool weather.
.
Pediatric desex of pups & kittens is done by vets, *with anaesthesia*, sterile conditions, & so on - just like S/N on older animals, but with less risk & faster healing.
.
EDITED To Add "post-op" - @evel-lin 
.
.
.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

But, why would it be necessary to neuter an eight week old pup?

Given that the majority of bitches don't have their first season until the age of six months or older and that most male dogs aren't capable of mating until around 6/9 months, why can't it wait until the dog/bitch is older?


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2017)

I understand why shelters feel the need to neuter young puppies, I still don't agree with it. I understand the need, the lack of personnel to track their adoptees and follow them through sexual maturity and make sure they're not bred from. But there is no question that there are health implications with neutering so early. 

Sex hormones aren't just related to sex. They're related to normal growth and development.
I have no issue with spaying and neutering however it is convenient for the owner. But I'm also all for education so the owner is making an educated choice. 
And frankly, if the owner makes a different choice than one you would, guess what L4L? That's their prerogative. Not your dog, not your choice. Get over it. 

It's also a false equivalence to bring livestock in to the argument. 
For one, meat animals are being used for, well, meat. They're not going to live out a natural life, and if they grow awkwardly or don't form correctly it's not that much of an issue. 

With horses, no one "spays" mares. So there is no equivalence there. Mares are allowed to keep their ovaries and uterus and have two heats a year etc. 
With male horses, especially those kept as performance animals, it is well known that gelding them early is detrimental in many ways.


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## evel-lin (Jul 1, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> .there are fewer nerves / less pain


that reminds me of the circumcision excuses given as a reason to do it to infants that are barely days old. I'm not convinced that nerves are less developed at that age in humans or animals. I think it's just easy to pin them down when they fight back


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Oh god I feel like I have stepped back in time same convo same death by c & p same hard to read and understand narrative. Same reactions. It will never be acceptable to me, it will never be recommended by me and no amount of biased information will ever convince me other wise. I just hope UK vets keep saying no.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Sweety:

But, *why would it be necessary to neuter an eight week old pup?*

/QUOTE
.
.
presumably, U actually read my last comment, above?  Pediatric desex was done in shelters & rescues because irresponsible a$$wipes can't be bothered to S/N later, or at all. OK?
The compliance rate with a S/N clause in an adoption contract across the U-S averages just 40%. That leaves over half of all pets adopted, intact - which is more than enuf to drown shelters & rescues in their adoptees kids, grandkids, & great-great-great-grandkids, for decades. They had to shut-off the running tap.
.
fast-forward to today, & pediatric AKA juvenile desex [pre-pubertal] is done not only by shelters, as it has been for over 30-years, but also by breeders - so that pups or kittens they don't want to breed, are reproductively sterile before they leave the breeder's possession.
Also, simply because it's safer, faster, shorter GA period, faster healing, less *internal* scarring [adhesions, etc], & a better outcome - they have fewer complications, including infections, incision opening, tears, etc.
.
It's done by necessity by shelters & rescues, & by *choice* by breeders - because it's safer, it's better for the pup or kitten, & it's DONE. They heal fast, & they won't be siring or whelping any litters.
.
.
_______________________

Quote, Sweety:

Given that the majority of bitches don't have their first season until the age of six months or older and that *most male dogs aren't capable of mating until around 6/9 months*, why can't it wait until the dog/ bitch is older?

/QUOTE
.
.
I think U mean males aren't FERTILE till about 6-mos; they can mount & even penetrate another dog, before 6-MO, assuming the other dog holds still or doesn't fight them.
.
Do U remember the 4-MO male pup in Dog Breeding sub-forum, who bred his mum?... here on PF-uk, he was nicknamed 'Romeo' or some nonsense as a result.
As a rule, males must be 6-MO to have active, fertile sperm - but not always. // Plus, as above, extra safety, faster healing, etc, etc -
AND reproductively sterile, no option to breed the pet post-adoption / post-purchase.
.
.
.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

The references used are old...the post itself is old.

To critically look at neutering/spaying early I would want the most upto date information...

Most vets that I come across...in the practice I attend as they are usually trainee or straight out of vets college have always gone from 6months- after the first season as recommended for spaying as this is what they have been taught...but even the 6 month gate way which was becoming more popular about say 7 years ago...some vets were a bit meh with it due to simply biology and no one actually knowing a season, and my bitches so far till now have always been small breeds.

Neutering of dogs always depends on how savvy most vets are about males and fear...but I would say most I have come across never have been over zealous either, they understand about the 'look' of neutered boys but there will be no doubt those who don't get the connection with fear and behaviour and castration completely. Never been rail roaded, but my males have been castrated due to rescue policy but in my own time, and vets have been happy with that...but then in a multidog house hold of dogs and bitches I haven't been asking advice about puppies or whelping so I suppose it depends on the person...a 'friend' multi dog household always has accidental litters and no sooner a single dog is castrated...there are plenty mate. If neutering was earlier it wouldn't make a difference.


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## evel-lin (Jul 1, 2010)

@leashedForLife you stated castrating livestock is sometimes done at a young age without anaesthetic because the nerves are less developed. I am challenging that assumption that nerves are less developed in a full term newborn compared to an adult animal. I see no reason why that would be the case. Whether the surgery is done with or without anaesthesia there is still going to be post operative pain.

Your posts are very difficult to understand at times with the way you write them so perhaps your original explaination wasn't as clear as you meant it to be. Clearly it is a subject you feel passionate about but I don't feel calling someone "stoopid" because they disagree with you is a mature response


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

It really won't catch on here. I think if anything movement especially in the last few decades has been swaying towards keeping male dogs entire where possible and spaying bitches when they are fully mature (around 2 years of age for large breed dogs). In parts of Europe they don't spay or neuter at all unless medically necessary.

I suspect in this country where most dogs lives are pretty tightly regulated, genuine 'accidental' litters are not that common. I've had various entire bitches over the years and never been followed by horny male dogs or had them turn up on my doorstep and mine get walked almost as normal (extreme care when ovulating) when in season. 

I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of litters out there are purpose bred by people looking to make a quick buck.

If I were a breeder there is no friggin way I'd put puppies of that age through an elective op.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2017)

So this is going to be another one of those "agree with me or I'll roll my eyes and stomp my feet" threads?
Okie dokie then...


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, evel-lin:
> 
> that reminds me of the circumcision excuses given as a reason to do it to infants that are barely days old.
> I'm not convinced that *nerves are less developed at that age* in humans or animals. I think it's just *easy to pin them down when they fight back*
> ...


You know, I have respect for anyone who has strong beliefs and is passionate about them, but this is becoming ridiculous.

You're beginning to sound like a fanatic. How many times will you repeat yourself until it becomes obvious that others have their own views?

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but this constant repetition is becoming very wearing.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Ketamine is an extremely useful drug when used appropriately. There are fears of it being banned worldwide and the veterinary profession (at least in the UK) is fighting to keep it in veterinary use.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

You just cannot compare dogs with farmed livestock. I cannot read the OPs posts, never have been able to so can only go by what others are saying but it is ridiculous to make that comparison. A dog is a pet that is going to live for over 12 years and needs the hormones to grow properly. I have nothing against spaying small bitches at 6 months but why would you castrate so young and why would you neuter any dog at 8 weeks. Horses are seldom castrated until a year old and often left much later so that they mature first. Castrated horses, cattle and sheep have longer legs and less developed necks and bodies than entires. It does not seem to be detrimental to horse's growth but they are definitely a different shape and have a different temperament. Why would you want to put a pup through surgery at such a young age. Females of other species are left entire anyway and calves and lambs are usually rubber ringed but a pup does not even have descended testicles at such a young age and bitches will often have very under developed vulvas which will not develop well if they are spayed so young.


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## Aahlly (Sep 12, 2014)

I don't agree and never will with early neutering. I'm super iffy about unnecessary surgeries and neutering at 8 weeks old is, in my opinion, completely unnecessary. You're not giving the dog any time to mature particularly in regards to large breeds. I can see a stark difference with the dogs that I know personally between the ones neutered early and the ones neutered later. This is by no means evidence as we're talking about a comparatively small sample, but in my experience the dogs neutered young have had less muscle development, lankier and less mentally mature. We all want our dogs to be the best they can be so why not facilitate that by allowing them to fully grow into themselves before making the decision on wether to neuter or not. Lets not forget that it is entirely possible to own unaltered dogs and still produce zero puppies. The responsibility lies in management of the dogs not just neutering. Roxy was not neutered until five years old when she was experiencing false pregnancies and generally not in 100% health and the vet advised it. And yet, Roxy has never produced puppies. Lola is almost three years old and, as yet, is not neutered and will never have a litter of puppies because I would not allow that to happen. Owning unaltered dogs doesn't directly result in pregnancy.

@leashedForLife I respect the passion you have for this topic but you seem to be on some kind of crusade of conversion and honestly, it's not going to fly for a lot of people. There is a lot of recent research suggesting later neutering as more beneficial for development and I have never come across a vet who advocated neutering of such young dogs. Again, only speaking from personal experience but I see no evidence before me that this is advised. My own vet respects my decisions regarding neutering, or not neutering, my animals and I trust my vet and his up to date knowledge and experience.

Did you mention cats in another thread, or this one? I can't remember but they're not comparable. I have had the full range of neutering ages with my four cats. One was a paediatric neuter. One was left until 18 months old, another a year and another nine months. They're all house cats who had exactly zero chance of reproducing under my watch (I run a tight ship) I left them as long as I could bear, again to avoid unnecessary surgery and stress. Cats display a range of behaviours when left entire that are impossible to live with as I discovered. My eldest male cat is the one who was left until 18 months and although we were lucky and he never sprayed, his urine stank like a locker room when he got to this age and I couldn't anymore. However, he is very muscly and has the tom cat ear set. I'm only saying all this to make the point that 1) they're not comparable with dogs and 2) it's down to owner preference and choice at the end of the day and owning entire animals does not automatically make one irresponsible or stupid.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, evel-lin:

...you stated castrating livestock is *sometimes done at a young age without anaesthetic* because the nerves are less developed. 
I am challenging that assumption that nerves are less developed in a full term newborn compared to an adult animal. I see no reason why that would be the case. Whether the surgery is done with or without anaesthesia there is still going to be post operative pain.

/QUOTE
.
I did not claim there is "no post-op pain". I said there is *LESS post-op pain*, which is easily observed in patients. 
Post-op patients will be more or less active, have more or less appetite, will move freely or guardedly; they complain vocally [whine, groan, etc] or pant in distress when pain is severe, will look anxious if in more pain / appear calm if they're in minimal pain, pupils of the eyes enlarge slightly if pain is heavy, & so on.
.
Young kittens & pups go right back to normal activities in literally 2 hours post-desex; they eat as hungrily, play as madly, their faces are relaxed, they do not hunch over their tummies & lurk, don't avoid their littermates, don't guard their abdomens or butts; they romp, explore, & are - as usual - either moving at 40-mph, or sleeping deeply.
.
As for the "less developed" bit, that's precisely what i was told by my profs in Animal Science - 
i took Dairy Production, Beef Production, & Sheep production. We observed castrations done on a 2-wk old ram lamb, & on a 4-day old bull calf. The lamb in particular protested being *restrained *far-more than he did the actual op, which took approx 10-seconds per testis. He tried to kick & wriggle while held with his spine leaning against the prof's chest, but his hind legs were simply held folded into him with a hand wrapped round each lower leg, & his forelegs hung down in front of his chest, unrestrained.
In a few seconds - maybe 30, as the prof talked to us over his head - he relaxed & stopped wriggling altogether, raised his head, & began looking around at the class; his ears were forward, he blatted sociably, but he was not distressed, he was curious. // The prof reached across the lamb's torso & held one hind leg, extended upward, used his free hand to slit the near side of the scrotum, used that thumb to pop the testis out, pulled firmly to stretch the ligament & blood vessels... all this time the lamb is calm, no vocal protests, no struggles except a foreleg wagging a bit as the man shifts his weight -- he pinched the blood vessel with his thumbnail, the testis inside his closed palm, held the pressure, then reached over briefly with the other hand to grab the ligament & blood vessels below the testis, PULLED with the hand that had the thumbnail firmly on them, they snapped like rubber-bands & recoiled inside the open scrotum.
He repeated the process on the other side, switching hands - still with the lamb's back against his chest - leaned forward, set the lamb down on all 4s, & he trotted off to rejoin the group standing about 10-ft away from us, in the pen.
The lamb lost maybe a teaspoon of blood, at most. The scrotum was dripping small drops, slowly, as he trotted off. He showed absolutely no distress.
.
In comparison:
my sire was pigheadedly determined to dock all our lambs, & wanted to use an elastrator to castrate them. // He made the mistake of doing both at the same time; the elastic band tightly around the lamb's tail HURT, & it also made getting to their feet a struggle. I don't know why - i am simply telling U what i observed. The ram lambs would repeatedly try to get to their feet [horses get up fore 1st, then rear; sheep rise butt 1st, then fore], & fall back down.
2 of our ram lambs *herniated *struggling to get to their feet, within 24-hours of being banded on tail & scrotum.  Both had to be euthanized, as we couldn't afford to fix the abdominal wall.
I finally convinced Johnny to *stop* docking, & to sell our ram-lambs as live lambs at Easter - no more castration, & the buyers slaughtered them - or took them to a butcher to be slaughtered, professionally. // All our lambs kept their tails, we had no more issues with struggles to rise, & no need to castrate, as we did not keep our young rams. Result! 
.
here's a paddock castration & docking, 1 ram & 1 ewe, twin lambs -




The owner uses elastrator bands to capture both testes, & to dock the tails - essentially, they drop off from localized necrosis. // Action starts at 4-mins & is done by 6-mins, but WATCH the lambs until 7-mins 30-secs - they repeatedly fall over, walk hunched, tiptoe on their rears & lean on their forelegs, lie down & blaat to mama, etc. They are not happy nor comfortable; it takes *10 days to 2-weeks* for the tail & / or testes to fall off. That's a long time to be uncomfortable. 
.
for contrast, a surgical castration of adult goats, sedated -




they're knocked out, slit 1 side, emasculator is used to crush blood vessels & ligament, cut, toss; slit other side, expel testis, pull, emasculator, cut, toss; goat #2 is black, & the vet uses forceps to clamp-off the blood vessels instead of the emasculator, but it's the same sequence.
Neither animal is conscious at the end of the procedure - in ruminants, that's risky, they can bloat as they don't burp while unconscious.
.
.
Back to livestock production at Penn State...
When another prof did the calf, he didn't try to hold the animal up nor turn him over; even a newborn calf weighs 100# or more. The calf stood tied to a fence-post with a halter on, the prof swabbed one side of the scrotum from behind, the calf kicked at his own belly as if a fly walked on him, the prof reached between his rear legs to hold the cleaned side of the scrotum & squeezed the testis toward the 'bottom', used the other hand to slit the skin, the testis popped out like a peeled grape, he tugged downward, crushed the blood vessel with his thumbnail, "stripped" the nail toward the calf's body to push the blood upward, tore the blood vessel & ligament between both hands, they snapped into the body cavity, the calf shook his head & stamped, he swabbed the other side, repeated the slit / pop / pinch / pull, & the calf was led off.
Again, no bawling, no fuss, no anaesthesia, no sedation. // Open incision to let it drain & heal on its own; he DID spray the wound with Blu-Kote, a spray to both keep it clean & discourage flies. The calf appeared more bothered by the hiss & chill of the spray, than he was by the scalpel cutting him.
.
.
here's a barn castration of a calf -




.
he's only 10 to 14-days old, & Dad doesn't do the job well; the testes aren't fully descended, & he lets the left one repeatedly slide up the cord. He actually slices between a 1/4-inch & a 1/2-inch of the scrotum clean off with a single-edge new razor; that's to ensure the incision stays open to heal cleanly, vs a thin slit that can close too soon & trap fluid or infection inside.
He cuts at 1-min 10-secs, & despite his fumbles, testis # 1 is out at 2-mins 10-secs, & testis #2 at 2-mins 25-secs - all done. The calf is lying on his side, he never bawls & does not kick or struggle. [He does move his lower hind leg slightly at 2-mins 5-secs - that's the only time he shifts, even his belly doesn't tighten.]
.
Here's a field castration of a horse - 




.
he's no baby, he looks to be 3 or 4-YO; he's sedated by injection before the clip starts, he goes down at 55-secs, a towel goes over his head to protect his blinkless eyes from the sun, his upper hind-leg is tied off to a neck-rope to prevent him kicking or rising, a woman scrubs his scrotum for 2-minutes with sanitizer from a S/S bucket.
The vet has his tools in another bucket of sanitizer; the camera moves from butt-on POV to belly-on, he cuts the scrotum at 3-mins 45-secs, pulls the testis down @ 4-mins 30-secs, crushes the ligament & blood vessels with the emasculator at 4-mins 45-secs, holds the pressure for 10-secs, removes the testis, cuts the other side, testis out, emasculator @ 5:55, all done at 6-mins.
From 3-mins 45-secs to 6-mins is the actual op: 2 cuts. Holding the pressure on the emasculator to crush the blood-vessel actually takes longer than removing the testis.
. 
.
QUOTE, evel-lin:

... I don't feel calling someone "stoopid" because they disagree with you is a mature response.

/QUOTE
.
.
corection, Evel 
i did not call -*you*- "stoopid" --- 
i said claiming a vet would "*pin down a non-human patient*" with no anaesthesia, just brute force, & then attempt to use a scalpel on that patient, is stoopid. // It wouldn't be merely awkward, it would be bl**dy dangerous; for the vet trying to use a sharp on a struggling animal, & for the nonhuman patient, too.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Aahlly

I don't agree and never will with early neutering. ... *neutering at 8 weeks old is*, in my opinion, completely *unnecessary*.

/QUOTE
.
@Aahlly ,
If U're a shelter employee or rescue staff in the U-S, pups & kittens are desexed _Before_ they leave with adopters.
I've already explained that even with a S/N clause that states clearly U will be *fined & may pay court costs, *plus the pet may be *repossessed* by the shelter or rescue, compliance in the USA averages 40%. That low compliance is the reason it's necessary.

Also, over 900 vet practices in the UK offer early-desex specifically for kittens. They - like U-S shelters & vets - are trying to shut-off the constant flow of unwanted kittens to shelters to be either placed, or in the U-S, killed if they're not adopted.
2.7-million homeless pets are euthanized every year across the U-S. Those are over 2-million reasons to S/N pets who aren't breeding candidates.
.
.
.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Ketamine is an extremely useful drug when used appropriately. There are fears of it being banned worldwide and the veterinary profession (at least in the UK) is fighting to keep it in veterinary use.


Is this reference to paraphrasing her but 'how poor and old fashioned this drug is, and that patients can feel everything' which seems to raise its ugly head on every single pro neuter at early as possible thread!

If so thank you for your input.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2017)

Make up your mind @leashedForLife
First you give have a hissy fit over a legitimate comment about it being easier to restrain young animals, insisting that they're not restrained,


evel-lin said:


> that reminds me of the circumcision excuses given as a reason to do it to infants that are barely days old. I'm not convinced that nerves are less developed at that age in humans or animals. I think it's just easy to pin them down when they fight back





leashedForLife said:


> Evel,
> U are successfully p*ssing me off; whether that's intentional or accidental, i don't know & won't hypothesize.
> *NOBODY "PINS THEM DOWN"*, & alleging that a vet would restrain an animal with brute force in order to use a scalpel on them is pretty dam*ed stoopid - to say nothing of unethical.


Then you talk about how they're restrained along with videos showing animals being, yup, restrained. 


leashedForLife said:


> The lamb in particular protested being *restrained *far-more than he did the actual op, which took approx 10-seconds per testis. He tried to kick & wriggle while held with his spine leaning against the prof's chest, but his hind legs were simply held folded into him with a hand wrapped round each lower leg, & his forelegs hung down in front of his chest, unrestrained.


So @evel-lin did indeed make a valid comment about it being easier to hold down younger animals, which you have now nicely substantiated for her.

And finally, we're talking DOGS here, animals who are going to be companions for hopefully the length of their natural lives, not livestock who will have entirely different standards for wellness and purpose.

I know you won't comment on any of this though because you have me on ignore. As you will probably do to everyone else on this thread who disagrees with your pediatric spay/neuter crusade. Because why hear any opposing views right? Anyone who disagrees with you is just stoopid, and doesn't have anything worthwhile to say huh?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Make up your mind @leashedForLife
> First you give have a hissy fit over a legitimate comment about it being easier to restrain young animals, insisting that they're not restrained,
> 
> Then you talk about how they're restrained along with videos showing animals being, yup, restrained.
> ...


There is still no validity to what is being said...

No up-to-date date..

As ceiling kitty mentioned ketamine...i searched it...its either a wonder drug or mainly old fashioned and the animal feels pain..writing what suits...

Dragging an old thread from 2010 where no one commented...obviously they were just as sick then as now with the pro early neuter.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Why cant you just use the quote button properly :Inpain


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

BlueJay said:


> Why cant you just use the quote button properly :Inpain


Its not as special otherwise! Its an importance thing...I presume!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

lullabydream said:


> As ceiling kitty mentioned ketamine...i searched it...its either a wonder drug or mainly old fashioned and the animal feels pain..writing what suits...


Wouldn't use it on its own, always in combination with something.

Ironically, one of the most common uses is in early neutering of kittens - it's an important part of the Kitten Quad Protocol as recommended by Cats Protection, RSPCA etc.










Personally I think it's a useful drug that plays a valuable role in veterinary medicine and I'd happily use it in appropriate combinations in my own cat if it was necessary.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Wouldn't use it on its own, always in combination with something.
> 
> Ironically, one of the most common uses is in early neutering of kittens - it's an important part of the Kitten Quad Protocol as recommended by Cats Protection, RSPCA etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you because my search here just lead to L4L saying what I repeated here...which again I don't understand her relevance or switching between its the medicine of satan or the best thing ever...all I can guess is if you blind people with science use words, drug names people are not always familiar with, take so called references it can make your point valid to many who may not be academically minded...all I see is skewed data and scare mongering


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
@Ceiling Kitty ,
i'm guessing the "it" that U "wouldn't use alone" is ketamine? 
.
Looking at the poster, i see the 4-drug combo with dosages for each - is that injectable the sole anaesthetic during pediatric desex of kittens in the UK, or is that the induction sedative that's injected, & they are intubated with gas anaesthetic, once sedated?
The many mobile S/N clinics that i'm familiar with, run by non-profits & often funded by grants, use an injection to sedate, typically a narcotic, then intubate & use Isofluorane gas during surgery. // The pets they S/N may be owned dogs, cats, pups, or kits, or are free-roaming - abandoned former-pets, or born feral.
.
The vets in the U-S that i despise for their use of Ketamine use it solo - inject, operate, done.  As the patient can *feel* everything but can't react to it - they are paralyzed - it's an extreme stress. Adult cats have died during surgeries with Ketamine-only.

Ketamine is also used in the U-S loaded into an air-gun dart to knock-out grizzlies who are caught in paw-hold snares for scientific research [body condition, age (remove 1 small pre-molar), sex, Fs preg or barren, hair-tuft for DNA, etc], or it's used to knock-out problem grizzlies caught in pipe-traps to either relocate them away from human homes or garbage, or to euthanize them, if repeat offenders have already been relocated & they return to the area of their crimes. 

Some states use bear-dogs & nasty projectiles to condition the bears to avoid human-homes & garbage - the dogs chase & bark, the dog handlers fire bang-grenades, shout, & sometimes fire rubber-bullets. The dogs-&-noise protocol is extremely successful; bears exposed to it very very rarely become garbage scavengers, nor do they break into unoccupied homes & hibernate inside... but the conditioning protocol & paying wages to the dog-team is expensive, the 'trap, transport & collar' option is cheap, altho it dumps bears in areas that they do not know with no 'mental map' of seasonal food sources, & it increases bear : bear conflicts by dumping a stranger in occupied territory.
Sadly, simply shooting offending bears is cheapest of all. 
.
.
.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Ketamine is an NMDA-anatgonist and is a dissociative. Analgesia is a property of such agents. Consequently, ketamine does have analgesic effects and is in fact used (with increasing frequency in some circles) as a sole agent in analgesic constant rate infusions - in anaesthetised patients undergoing painful procedures or in hospitalised patients with severe pain.

I agree it should not be used as a sole anaesthetic agent, however.

In the kittens being anaesthetised using the QUAD protocol, I do not intubate males for routine castration. I personally do intubate the females - some choose not to with this drug combination - but would place them on oxygen only. Occasionally there is a need for inhalant anaesthetic as well, but usually not as the procedures are short and the injectable combination is sufficient. The alpha-2 agonist (medetomidine) is reversed with atipamezole after the procedure is complete.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
thanks for that, @Ceiling Kitty -
the dissociative aspects are one of the reasons it's controversial when used on grizzlies, especially -- wildlife biologists worry that giving an aggressive or human-habituated, scavenging 800# to 1400# grizz the rough equivalent of a dose of angel-dust isn't an intelligent idea. 
.
Ketamine is also used on black bears, but less commonly, & nuisance or threatening black bears are readily shot, as the species is widespread & well-established. Grizzlies' status as either threatened or endangered in the Lower-48 makes killing them outright a bad choice.
.
.
.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2017)

And now we've gone from pediatric spay/neuter to grizzlies....

I will say though, I'd rather the spay/neuter debate be on here, on a separate thread, than infused in to every single training and behavior thread, every breeding thread, every indoor/outdoor cat thread, every possible place it remotely comes up (or even not). 

I don't have any issue promoting spay neuter for the vast majority of the pet owning population. It is a valid way to reduce the unwanted pet population, no doubt. 

What I object to is an insistence that one way is the sole and only correct way of doing things and that anyone who doesn't do things that way is ___ (insert derogatory of your choice). 
I also strongly object to fear mongering and incorrect/outdated information being presented with that fear mongering.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, evel-lin:
> 
> ...you stated castrating livestock is *sometimes done at a young age without anaesthetic* because the nerves are less developed.
> I am challenging that assumption that nerves are less developed in a full term newborn compared to an adult animal. I see no reason why that would be the case. Whether the surgery is done with or without anaesthesia there is still going to be post operative pain.
> ...


Right, my one year old female was right back to normal. So I'm not sure how this is proof of anything. She actually had to be restrained leashed to go outside and separated from the other dogs so she didn't injure herself at the incision *because she was right back to normal* which is a dog that runs around in circles and plays rough with the others.

There is no proof they feel less pain. Do they supposedly not have developed pain receptors at 8 weeks? Newborn humans do, if dogs are like sheep they must be like people.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, SpicyBulldog;

...my one year old female [EDIT: post-spay] was right back to normal... I'm not sure how this is proof of anything.
She actually had to be restrained leashed to go outside and separated from the other dogs so she didn't injure herself at the incision *because she was right back to normal* - which is a dog that runs around in circles and plays rough with the others.

There is no proof they feel less pain. Do they supposedly not have developed pain receptors at 8 weeks? Newborn humans do, if dogs are like sheep they must be like people.

/QUOTE
.
.
Spicy,
U have a sample-size of 1. Ur dog acted no different than her usual daft self. That's not statistically significant. However...
.
we can improve it, by adding more data points: survey other owners, whose bitches were also spayed at 12-MO, & ask how they behaved.
Among those other dogs, I can predict - because i knew owners who related anecdotes to me, re their own F dogs post-OHE - we'll find a certain number who were markedly less active than normal, moved slowly, spent more time lying down than standing up or sitting, got up slowly or even vocalized when they stood from lying down [yelped, whined, etc], required pain medication, refused to go outside except to void bladder or bowels, would not climb stairs, etc.
.
In fact, there are anecdotes of precisely this on PF-uk, because i've read them in the past 8-years plus - but the search function on this website is so lousy, the odds of finding them are very poor.
.
Some older pups & even adult dogs - M & F - are utterly heedless of pain. Pitbulls, in case U were unaware, are exceptionally stoic.
That does bias Ur account of her complete indifference to her spay surgery during recovery. // And of course, there will also be individual dogs & even breeds who are notorious for being complete wimps.
.
My 1st therapy-pet was one such - Beau was a Dachs x Basset who resembled his sleek-faced mother, not his droopy-eyed, melted face sire - which was a dam* good thing, as he would have needed his eyes checked after every run thru a grassy field for seeds, dirt, & other debris. 
When he was 10-WO, i took him to the vet for his puppy-vax -- I'd adopted him 3 days earlier, at 9.5-wks, & already i knew he was a vocal wuss. The vet examined him, pronounced him healthy, & slipped a small-gauge needle under the skin of his scruff. *He cried for over 5-minutes. *Not joking - it started with a loud, deep yelp, which made both of us jump, then became a series of high-pitched diminishing yips, then morphed into ow-ow-ow-ow sounds, almost howling, & finally long, loud whines... that eventually - thank God! - stopped.
His initial reaction was so loud, i couldn't hear the vet beside me speaking - she was apologizing, but i knew perfectly well SHE HAD NOT HURT HIM in a meaningful way; he was just a delicate little 15# blossom, who had zero pain tolerance. 
The vet was very embarrassed, she kept saying she'd never had a reaction like that before - & i absolutely believed her, he was ridiculous. I knew just how excessive his sensitivity was, because 2 days before, i'd accidentally tread on his toe - not fully, just began to, FELT his toe under my foot, & immediately backed off. He screamed as if i was killing him.  I was barefoot, so no shoe, no heavy pointy heel, just my own toes overlapping his as he wandered back & forth across the entire width of the sidewalk heedlessly.
I had to pick him up AND CARRY HIM - he wouldn't walk.  He wasn't limping - he was lying on his back, yi-yi-yi-yi-ing.  Naturally, it happened on College Avenue in downtown State College, PA. :Hilarious
Even lying on his back in my arms, he continued to, _Ay!... Ay!... Ay!..,_ as i walked down the street.
.
My next dog was my Akita bitch - who once hiked over a mile in deep snow, after slicing her paw-pad open on broken glass - without limping, slowing, or in any way exhibiting any pain whatever - snooping, trotting, walking, all normal. I looked down our backtrail, SAW THE BLOOD, & freaked out - what the H*** is bleeding?!?! -
I picked up 3 paws to find the cut, which was ugly but no permanent damage, & *then... *she limped. I wanted to throttle her.  I had to carry her all the way back to the car over my shoulders, with one set of paws to each side, held by my hands. Dam* pigheaded bitch, LOL. She was about 7-mos old at the time, & no lightweight!
Talk about stoic - even when she was bleeding out, during her last platelet crisis - after over 2-years of constant treatment, repeated crises, & short respites -- she looked so good, the vet asked me if i was *sure* i wanted to euthanize her. 
.
.
.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

SpicyBulldog said:


> Right, my one year old female was right back to normal. So I'm not sure how this is proof of anything. She actually had to be restrained leashed to go outside and separated from the other dogs so she didn't injure herself at the incision *because she was right back to normal* which is a dog that runs around in circles and plays rough with the others.
> 
> There is no proof they feel less pain. Do they supposedly not have developed pain receptors at 8 weeks? Newborn humans do, if dogs are like sheep they must be like people.


I'm not sure of the literature in dogs, but there is published evidence that young kittens act less painful after neutering than older cats:
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1098612X13503651


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Ummm....I wasn't going to comment in this thread because this argument has been done to death.
I did have to point out that I find it funny when people use nothing but anecdotal evidence to back up an argument!

Especially when it is used straight after the "well your experience doesn't matter because blah...blah...blah, but my experience is much better!!!"



FWIW I am pro neuter for the most part...I will never search for a vet that would do pediatric neutering in dogs. Nor would I advise it unless someone can produce scientific, peer reviewed studies showing the pro's and cons..
Until that day, this thread is just an opinion, which is fine...but an opinion does not a fact make!


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> Especially when it is used straight after the "well your experience doesn't matter because blah...blah...blah, but my experience is much better!!!"


"I take your anecdotal evidence and I raise you my uncle's neighbor's goat anecdotal evidence!" :Hilarious:Hilarious

It's really very simple. 
Sex hormones play an important role in growth and development. There is ample, peer reviewed, scientific evidence that growth plates are slower to close in animals neutered before puberty. We know this.

What effect those slower to close growth plates have on the individual animal is debatable sure, but there is indeed an effect on the development of the animal when you neuter before the animal is done growing.

Owners have to decide for themselves how they want to weigh those effects. No one has the one, correct answer because no one has the same dog, the same circumstances, or the same capabilities of dealing with intact animals. Hence - to each their own.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, StormyThai:

Ummm....I wasn't going to comment in this thread because this argument has been done to death.
I did have to point out that I find it funny when people use nothing but anecdotal evidence to back up an argument!

Especially when it is used straight after the "well your experience doesn't matter because blah...blah...blah, but *my experience is much better*!!!"
...

/QUOTE
.
.
Stormy,
i did not claim "my experience is *much better*".  Far from it - i pointed out that 2 of my own dogs, both of whom i had from pups, were radically different in terms of pain tolerance & pain thresholds.
Beau was such a wimp, he'd shriek like a steam whistle over minor discomforts; Moon was so bl**dy stoic, she was a danger to herself. It should be obvious that pain tolerance in individuals varies widely; also, Spicy's female is of a breed famous for stoicsm.
.
.
here's an early-neuter / kitten thread:
_"...kittens are 12 weeks old... all males so was easier..._
_Kittens haven't noticed anything missing, still running riot, my nerves are now back to normal and people was right, so much easier on kittens, not drowsy, in fact no side affects have been seen. "_
@catcoonz - snippets from 3 posts: OP, #5, #12
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/my-first-en-experience.322121/#post-1063154420
.
_"...they'll be just fine  I pick mine up an hour later full of beans, the girls have 1 stitch, the boys of course nothing."_
@spotty cats
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/my-first-en-experience.322121/#post-1063148930
.
_"Been doing [EN] for 3 years now I think? At 10 weeks... all the new owners are so happy they don't have to go through it themselves, they recover so quick, I would only buy a kitten from a EN breeder now if I wanted another!"_
@Taylorbaby
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/my-first-en-experience.322121/#post-1063154180
.
_"I remember when my mums cats (then kittens) were done it was like... nothing had happened"_
@Cheryl89
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/my-first-en-experience.322121/#post-1063155591
.
.
.
these owners simply assume pain-meds will be needed, post-OHE or even post-neuter:
.
_...paying £55.91 each ... £10 is *pain relief*."_
_@_LostGirl
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dog-neutering-costs.146935/#post-2192223

_"Had both mine done through Dogs' Trust ... *paid extra £8 - for pain relief."*_
*@*huskylover37
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dog-neutering-costs.146935/#post-2192341

_"...[cost] did not include any *pain meds*, ... as he was not given any  did include the follow up visit..."_
@sunshine80
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dog-neutering-costs.146935/#post-2192644

_"We also didn't get any pain meds, which really surprised me, as Braighe was very obviously uncomfortable. I thought it would just be *routine to give them*."_
@Braighe
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dog-neutering-costs.146935/#post-2192695
.
_"...I paid £70 to adopt Maya and my orginal spay quote was £169 :scared: but when I [got] Rusty, the cost was £110 *with pain meds.*"_
@SpringerHusky,
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dog-neutering-costs.146935/#post-2192720
.
_"[cost] was £250. The joys of living in the south... it did include *pain meds*, the pre op check..."_
@GoldenShadow
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dog-neutering-costs.146935/page-2#post-2194135
.
_"males cost £175, females £250 - includes *pain meds*, buster collar, & stitches out..."_
@shirleystarr
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dog-neutering-costs.146935/page-2#post-1063020637
.
_"She got... a jab for long lasting *pain relief* & antibiotics all included..."_
@Tamiyamumma
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/spay-over-now-doing-the-maths.304043/#post-1062887955
.
_"I think post hysterectomy I would appreciate a few days of* pain relief* personally.
Cats are very very adept at hiding pain, but a spay is still major surgery..."_
@Tamberlane
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/course-of-metacam-after-spaying.386934/#post-1063982403
.
_"I would give [Metacam] to a cat showing any signs of pain but not otherwise... it's pretty obvious when *pain meds* wear off and a cat needs another dose."_
@havoc
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/course-of-metacam-after-spaying.386934/#post-1063982417
.
If any of these members are still with us, perhaps they would kindly offer their dogs' or cats' ages at the time of S/N & their observations of pain or lack of it? 
.
Meanwhile, i'll post surveys in both Cat Chat & Dog Chat -
asking PF-uk members to please let us know re their own pets, what age they were S/N, & whether or not their pet needed pain-meds or showed pain, if so on a 1 to 10 scale how severe in the 1st 48-hours, & how many days apparent pain lasted, or what behavior they saw to indicate the presence or absence of pain.

Data always helps.  The search-function on PF-uk is not much help, unfortunately.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, StormyThai:

... Nor would I advise [pediatric S/N] unless someone can produce *scientific, peer reviewed studies showing the pro's and cons*..
Until that day, this thread is just an opinion, which is fine...but an opinion does not a fact make!

/QUOTE
.
.
@StormyThai -
it's now very apparent U did not read any of the included articles at the links - as they are almost ALL *scientific, peer reviewed studies* on pediatric desex - safety, outcome, complication rates, etc, etc.
.
U cannot complain that this thread is "nothing but opinion" when in fact, I've very clearly included not just a few, but multiple sources of peer-reviewed, journal published, data-driven studies. :Meh That U won't bother to read them is not my fault.
.
.
.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Peer review from years ago...medicine changes so rapidly...

Certain drugs for humans have been so called lifesavers...till the true horrors have emerged...

Science is fluid not static


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

The links don't work on this thread but if they are the same ones that you have posted on any other thread that involved neutering then I have read them...nothing in them convinces me that pediatric neutering is without risks.
I repeat - I get why *some *shelters in the states will elect this type of OP BUT I do not (and probably never will) agree with pediatric neutering as a rule.

It is ridiculous to ignore the fact that the testicles and the ovaries secrete steroid hormones that help you grow and develop...ergo, you remove them before growth and development has finished, you risk impacting both!


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> Spicy,
> U have a sample-size of 1. Ur dog acted no different than her usual daft self. That's not statistically significant. However...


A sample size of one? Hardly, I've had far more than one dog as a dog lover and enthusiast. I've had multiple dogs spayed / neutered from 6 months of age to 12 years of age (mainly spayed, leaving males intact most of the time) and this was without them being in any type of apparent extreme pain. How they behaved varied, of course.
Others owners? Why yes I know other owners too, which have spay and neuter dogs. Some act different/in pain, some are back to normal when picked up. I think this goes for any surgery.



> we can improve it, by adding more data points: survey other owners, whose bitches were also spayed at 12-MO, & ask how they behaved.
> Among those other dogs, I can predict - because i knew owners who related anecdotes to me, re their own F dogs post-OHE - we'll find a certain number who were markedly less active than normal, moved slowly, spent more time lying down than standing up or sitting, got up slowly or even vocalized when they stood from lying down [yelped, whined, etc], required pain medication, refused to go outside except to void bladder or bowels, would not climb stairs, etc.


I never said that all older dogs will be right back to normal. So not sure your point. I stated my experience, since you seem to believe pups don't have the same developed pain receptors as adults, so they will be "right back to normal". Implying that for adults waiting to s/n will be more painful and harder on them. You statements have been more blanket statement on adults being s/n. Not that it matters in the end of the day because it is a personal choice of when or if to s/n. Your fanatical campaign isn't changing any minds.



> In fact, there are anecdotes of precisely this on PF-uk, because i've read them in the past 8-years plus - but the search function on this website is so lousy, the odds of finding them are very poor.


I've not tried the search button, but can't see how it wouldn't work like any other. Perhaps it is an operator error, like using the quote button or typing coherent post.



> Some older pups & even adult dogs - M & F - are utterly heedless of pain. Pitbulls, in case U were unaware, are exceptionally stoic.


I am very aware of Pits being a stoic breed, but who said anything about Pit Bulls (it is two words, not a compound word)? You brought them in the topic, not myself.
You can tell when a Pit is in pain as well, walking different, breathing heavily in sleep (my vet told me this, which she learned at a pain clinic - when a dog has a high pain tolerance and you're unsure of them being in pain or not heavy breathing and restless sleep), they don't want you to touch the painful area showing discomfort by moving the affected area from you or quickly looking at where you have touched.



> .
> Stormy,
> i did not claim "my experience is *much better*".  Far from it - i pointed out that 2 of my own dogs, both of whom i had from pups, were radically different in terms of pain tolerance & pain thresholds.
> Beau was such a wimp, he'd shriek like a steam whistle over minor discomforts; Moon was so bl**dy stoic, she was a danger to herself. It should be obvious that pain tolerance in individuals varies widely; also, *Spicy's female is of a breed famous for stoicsm.*


Really? She was a mixed breed, so how can this be deduced?


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Young or old...if a female is spayed. The operation is the same.

We as owners should be aware that what basically they have had is a 'full hysterectomy' in humans terms. Whether our dogs are right back to normal when home on the first day or third day, it is our duty to keep them calm... Its still a major surgery at the end of the day.

As I guess we are not talking laparoscopy spay, and the nearest place to do this spay to me will only perform the operation on dogs I think they said 12-25kg which I presume is down to equipment.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, SpicyBulldog

...
Really? She was a mixed breed, so how can this be deduced?

/QUOTE
.
.
Where did U list her breed or breeds, please?
.
.
.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, SpicyBulldog
> 
> Really? She was a mixed breed, so how can this be deduced?
> 
> ...


Exactly. Can you show me since you said she was a stoic breed?


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

Is this why you have opened up 2 threads for cats and dogs about their experiences with spaying /neutering so you can fuel this tidal wave of neutering and spaying?

I try not to reply to any of @leashedForLife comments as they are so darn hard to read and it is just a tyrade of information, a lot of which is either contradictory or not relevant to the situation


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

AlexPed2393 said:


> Is this why you have opened up 2 threads for cats and dogs about their experiences with spaying /neutering so you can fuel this tidal wave of neutering and spaying?
> 
> I try not to reply to any of @leashedForLife comments as they are so darn hard to read and it is just a tyrade of information, a lot of which is either contradictory or not relevant to the situation


This I think is most peoples bug bear...this obsession with extremely early neutering...

There has actually been posts prior when she doesn't quite get the concept that we do have a rehoming crisis but we don't have packs of feral dogs wandering around as she thinks..

Old data is old data..cats are very different to dogs in every sense of the word.

However its good that people like you understand this about these posts too.


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

It's all very subjective regarding neutering/spaying in dogs with breed size, time of first season, male or female, temperament etc etc and I completely understand why rescues early neuter if they are giving pups away at an early age as they cannot guarantee they won't be prevented from mating down the line.

With cats I never knew about early spaying until coming onto here but after reading up on it it makes more sense to do so


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2017)

SpicyBulldog said:


> I've not tried the search button, but can't see how it wouldn't work like any other. Perhaps it is an operator error, like using the quote button or typing coherent post.


Search button works fine for me *shrug*
As does the quote function....

Hey, look, I just did a forum search for every time L4L has complained about the search function on this forum. 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/search/7900096/?q=search+function&o=date&c[user][0]=29929
Only 42 times in case anyone is wondering....


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Most people will agree to have bitches spayed, and usually after at least a first season simply due to the risk of pyo being to scary...and some bitches have hellish seasons, phantom pregnancies etc. So basically a mature bitch..

Neutering males is a minefield but research is swaying on the unless medically need too, or the odd behaviour may lessen. However, forget it if its to save pinning over bitches in season my dog Jovi never quite got over that one, castrated at 18 months as adviced by the rescue, sex mad for females till the day he died at 16! Although not all male dogs have the urge, or dog shows would be a nightmare!

Just do what is right for your dog/s, there is no specific right or wrong.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Search button works fine for me *shrug*
> As does the quote function....
> 
> Hey, look, I just did a forum search for every time L4L has complained about the search function on this forum.
> ...


Only 42 times...

How many times had early neutering been mentioned on threads not about neutering? Or would that be hours of searching?

Or bad conformation? That's another gem!


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

AlexPed2393 said:


> Is this why you have opened up 2 threads for cats and dogs about their experiences with spaying /neutering so you can fuel this tidal wave of neutering and spaying?
> 
> I try not to reply to any of @leashedForLife comments as they are so darn hard to read and it is just a tyrade of information, a lot of which is either contradictory or not relevant to the situation


I've noticed that. Big walls of text that don't have to do with the topic or are overkill.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Search button works fine for me *shrug*
> As does the quote function....
> 
> Hey, look, I just did a forum search for every time L4L has complained about the search function on this forum.
> ...


But the search button is so lousy!


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2017)

lullabydream said:


> Only 42 times...
> 
> How many times had early neutering been mentioned on threads not about neutering? Or would that be hours of searching?
> 
> Or bad conformation? That's another gem!


Well a quick search narrowed down to the training and behavior forum only (dogs), of when L4L has mentioned the word "neuter" or a form of that word is only 69 times  
http://www.petforums.co.uk/search/7900200/?q=neuter&o=date&c[node]=11+105&c[user][0]=29929

Search function still working pretty well


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Well a quick search narrowed down to the training and behavior forum only (dogs), of when L4L has mentioned the word "neuter" or a form of that word is only 69 times
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/search/7900200/?q=neuter&o=date&c[node]=11+105&c[user][0]=29929
> 
> Search function still working pretty well


Wonder how many of them have just brought their beautiful puppy home, and are asking for advise say on crate training and straightaway faced with neuter.

I would not mind..everyone is welcome but she knows this is a UK based forum and its like talking to a brick wall..

However Quesi, it does amuse me in the wrong way, or it would be too stressful being here!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, SpicyBulldog:

Exactly. Can you show me since you said she was a stoic breed?

/QUOTE
.
.
I thought U spoke of a different APBT than the one U wish to breed.  So what's the mystery mix?
.
.
.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, SpicyBulldog:
> 
> Exactly. Can you show me since you said she was a stoic breed?
> 
> ...


You jumped to a conclusion that fit your agenda.

Mom was a Lab, her coat was longer at parts than a lab though, black with white on chest and feet, about a 40 lbs dog. Doesn't really matter what she was too me.

ETA: The last I had spayed was a 10 year old Pit Bull and when I picked her up she was her good old self as well. Wagging her tail and while body, think she was happy to see me of course. Back home she got on just fine, I had to keep her calm going out and off thr porch to potty because I'm paranoid about females pulling stitches. The main thing I hate about major surgeries is worrying stitches and infection, because dogs are so resilient and active animals.


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## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Spicy,
> U have a sample-size of 1. Ur dog acted no different than her usual daft self. That's not statistically significant..


Your first post mentions a sample size of 9 dogs who were all of the same breed (probably closely related), and only mentions how there were 'no complications' reported by the owners within 3 years. That's also not statistically significant.
One of your other posts also makes fun of someone who was ignorant about neutering their Labrador/Boxer at 12 months old. One person's ignorance is not, and never will be, representative of a larger group. That's also pretty insignificant.



leashedForLife said:


> it's now very apparent U did not read any of the included articles at the links - as they are almost ALL *scientific, peer reviewed studies* on pediatric desex - safety, outcome, complication rates, etc, etc..


None of which have been published within the last 10 years, as far as I can see. Many haven't even been published within the last 20 years. One of the less ancient ones (which is specifically designed to highlight all benefits of pediatric neutering and does not offer a balanced insight) is a compilation of results from various papers... one of which were published in the 60s.



leashedForLife said:


> *NOBODY "PINS THEM DOWN"*, & alleging that a vet would restrain an animal with brute force in order to use a scalpel on them is pretty dam*ed stoopid - to say nothing of unethical.




A relative of mine worked in cat and kitten rescue many decades ago, and the cats were often given a local anaesthetic and sedative during neutering. She had been asked to restrain cats several times during operations. No idea if this was just one dodgy practice, but it has happened in the past.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
@elmthesofties ,
if no study is permitted to be "older" than X, what's the limit of freshness for U? - When do they expire? 
I'll find all fresh ones, if U insist that studies done more than 10-years ago are "too old", but Einstein's theories are all older than i am, & they are still in use, considered valid, & not being discarded for new models.
Let me know if i must find studies only since 2007. 
.
.
.
QUOTE, elmthesofties:

...
A relative of mine worked in cat and kitten rescue *many decades ago*, and the cats were often given *a local anaesthetic and sedative during neutering*. 
She had been asked to restrain cats several times during operations. No idea if this was just one dodgy practice, but it has happened *in the past.*

/QUOTE
.
many decades ago, my maternal grandfather bred & hunted hounds - cross-legged AKA bench-legged Beagles, pocket Beagles, Harriers, & so on. He carried *& used *a braided dog-whip - sold as such, labeled as such, no one raised an eyebrow. They resembled quirts for horses, but were supple, not stiff flexible wands.
Nowadays, anyone seen whipping their dogs would be up on abuse charges.
Times change - *no one *i've ever heard of or seen "pins" a dog or cat for S/N, even in field operations on feral animals, they sedate them - they're not using gas, they often use injectables, but they are knocked out.
.
.
.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Bejesus...medicine can't change but how we treat animals do...

Many academic courses will not except references less than 10 years old...for god sake especially medicine as its ever evolving and rightly so...

I know am lucky to be on ignore...but those with academic brain knows this...apart from L4L..

Einstein classic...of how not to understand how you understand a reference.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'll just speak up briefly in defence of veterinary literature.

Sometimes there genuinely aren't any newer papers. One of the things we have to struggle with when practising evidence-based veterinary medicine is a dearth of papers, especially in comparison to the human medical fields.

There often just isn't the funding available for what is a smaller market than human medicine, and it can be hard to get good case numbers as well.

If you look through a lot of veterinary literature you'll also find that many clinical studies are based on woefully small numbers of animals. It's not unusual to see papers published with findings based on fewer than 30 or 40 patients. A 'large' study in veterinary terms would involve a few thousand patients; in human medicine it would be tens of thousands.

Veterinary literature can be very limited and sometimes frustratingly so; sometimes the recently published research with large case numbers we look for just doesn't exist and we have to look at older or smaller studies, while of course acknowledging their limitations.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I will here point out that the "safety" studies for the surgery itself, plus the retrospective outcome surveys for infection rates, death rates, etc, among animals S/N in U-S shelter popns, include hundreds, & in toto, thousands of desex surgeries - as they collected the stats *after *they'd been done.
.
The rate of deaths per 1K patients is lower in pediatric S/N vs 6-MO desex; pubertal / traditional S/N is, in turn, higher risk than pediatric, & lower risk than post-puberty or adult S/N.
Please recognize that i am speaking only of surgical risks & immediate, short-term outcomes: complications which include deaths during surgery, post-op infections of surgical incisions or internally, reactions to the drugs used or gases used, organ injuries [liver, kidney], & so on.
Each of those is lowest in pediatric desex, higher in pubertal desex, & higher yet in post-pubertal or adult S/N - according to the statistics.
.
Additionally, kittens or pups under 12-WO bleed less, are under GA for shorter times, have less scarring internally [fewer adhesions, etc], heal faster, & rebound from the surgery faster than older kittens & pups. For rescues & shelters, those are huge advantages, as the young ones need much less aftercare & can be available for adoption in a day or 2 after their S/N. They're bright as buttons, eating, playing, & ready to go. 
.
.
.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I'll just speak up briefly in defence of veterinary literature.
> 
> Sometimes there genuinely aren't any newer papers. One of the things we have to struggle with when practising evidence-based veterinary medicine is a dearth of papers, especially in comparison to the human medical fields.
> 
> ...


The problem is that some seem to ignore the limitations...as a vet can I ask for your honest opinion about pediatric neutering of dogs? Is it something that you would be happy to preform?

I know pediatric neutering in cats is more popular but I'd prefer to stick to dogs for now


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

This is out of my depth tbh, I class myself as a responsible pet owner (I own more than a dog) however whilst I do not use and abuse my pets for monitory purposes there are a lot of people who do and I can understand breeders and rescues wanting to protect their animals before sending the off to their new homes. Signed paperwork is not a deterrent for these people, breeding from a non-active registered animal - okay the pups aren't KC registered doesn't stop them from being sold in fact these pups are more of a catch because they tend to be a bit cheaper.

If I am honest I fell for that 12 years ago - SBT were around £450.00 my lad was advertised no paperwork hence £350.00 brought up in a family home, sounded perfect tbh spent over £1000 in vet fees before he was a year old, we were told by the vet that his mother should never had been bred from and that Duke should never be bred from. Not a problem, no intention of breeding . This type of breeding needs stopping. Duke's mother was dying, she was 2 years old and had had previous litters, I was naive at the time.

The difficulty is how to prevent indiscriminate breeding by these people - even with a contract what happens in the event of complications after neuter ie death or behavioural changes ie aggression. Breeders are leaving themselves open to being sued forcing people to do something that has had devastating consequences (this is seems to be the trend these days).

If an owner chooses to have their dog neutered then it should be done at the appropriate stage/age in the development of the animal involved and if neutered earlier for appropriate reasons - I don't agree with routinely neutering at an early age.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> The problem is that some seem to ignore the limitations...as a vet can I ask for your honest opinion about pediatric neutering of dogs? Is it something that you would be happy to preform?
> 
> I know pediatric neutering in cats is more popular but I'd prefer to stick to dogs for now


My personal view is that it is appropriate in some rescue situations, but I wouldn't personally recommend it in owned dogs.


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## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> if no study is permitted to be "older" than X, what's the limit of freshness for U? - When do they expire?
> I'll find all fresh ones, if U insist that studies done more than 10-years ago are "too old", but Einstein's theories are all older than i am, & they are still in use, considered valid, & not being discarded for new models.
> Let me know if i must find studies only since 2007.



Maths and physics do not change. Once you have established something in those fields, it will stay relevant forever. Biology is not like that yet. Each observation is limited by the equipment and knowledge of the time. I'm not saying to ignore older studies, just to accept what they say with a pinch of salt. You're treating them as though they're unquestionably correct, they will always be correct, and your opinion is therefore correct. That's not the case with any paper on medicine, let alone ones published 40 years ago.




leashedForLife said:


> .many decades ago, my maternal grandfather bred & hunted hounds - cross-legged AKA bench-legged Beagles, pocket Beagles, Harriers, & so on. He carried *& used *a braided dog-whip - sold as such, labeled as such, no one raised an eyebrow. They resembled quirts for horses, but were supple, not stiff flexible wands.
> Nowadays, anyone seen whipping their dogs would be up on abuse charges.
> Times change - *no one *i've ever heard of or seen "pins" a dog or cat for S/N, even in field operations on feral animals, they sedate them - they're not using gas, they often use injectables, but they are knocked out.


I was simply making the point that it's something that has been practiced. You later seemed to imply that it's impossible to pin down a cat during a neuter, which was the point I was trying to address.
I did get muddled up when I wrote 'many decades ago', after changing it from 'many years' to 'decades' without removing the extra word. It was probably about 30 years ago that this happened, so within the timeline of some of the studies you referenced.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> I will here point out that the "safety" studies for the surgery itself, plus the retrospective outcome surveys for infection rates, death rates, etc, among animals S/N in U-S shelter popns, include hundreds, & in toto, thousands of desex surgeries - as they collected the stats *after *they'd been done.
> .
> ...


Neuter surgeries (on males or females) are by and large a very safe surgery anyway though. 
It's not like hoards of dogs and cats are dying from s/n surgeries. We've been doing it long enough to know how to do these surgeries incredibly safely. 
Hell, tons of shelters in the US do pregnant and in-heat spays as well and the dogs do just fine.

IOW, there is not this huge need to try and make s/n surgeries safer by doing them on very young puppies. 
And even if there were this need, does the added "safety" of a younger neuter surgery outweigh the risk of allowing a body to grow without the regulating influence of the sex hormones? I don't think it does.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Older dogs that are spayed or neutered are often done because they have a problem, so it's probably not entirely comparable. 

If rescues want to s/n very young pups and kittens it's probably policy to make sure there's no breeding once they're rehomed. Up to them. I doubt they researched the best time to get it done, just want it sorted before the pup or kitten leave the premises.

For the rest of us we can afford to research when is likely the best time for our particular dog, if at all. Early castration has a very obvious effect on horses (and humans), not something I'd want to inflict on a dog, unless absolutely necessary. The actual op itself is less important than future health implications and with laparoscopic spay, even spaying a bitch is less uncomfortable than it was. Just make sure there's no accidental litters, it's not difficult.

Why someone on the internet wants uk residents to s/n their pups at a few weeks old confuses me.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Elles:

Older dogs that are spayed or neutered are often done because they have a problem, so it's probably not entirely comparable.

*If rescues want to s/n very young pups and kittens, it's probably policy to make sure there's no breeding once they're rehomed*. Up to them. I doubt they researched the best time to get it done, just want it sorted before the pup or kitten leave the premises.

/QUOTE
.
eek! - sorry, ETA i just saw that i failed to reply on this 1st clause, sorry.
Yes, that is precisely why they do pediatric desex - they can't hold a pup or kitten for months to do a pubertal desex, that would be ridiculously expensive, plus it's bad for the pet.
S/he is not getting one to one attn in a shelter or group foster, which they would get in a pet home - so getting them into an adoptive home is time-critical, for socialization, habituation, & housetraining, among other things.

.
.
QUOTE, Elles:

Why someone on the internet wants UK residents to s/n their pups at a few weeks old confuses me. 

/QUOTE
.
.
I'm not "forcing" pediatric desex on UK pet-owners, good grief! - only pointing out that it's been done for decades in the U-S starting in 1972 in some municipal shelters, became SOP for virtually all shelters & rescues between 1985 & 1990, & we have loads of studies on safety.
.
For shelters & rescues, pediatric desex is an obvious Godsend, allowing kittens & pups to be adopted young, but never produce progeny to return to a shelter - thus reducing the constant pressure of intake.
For *breeders* especially of cats, pediatric desex is becoming the standard - unless they have a truly quality kitten or a kitten being sold as a breeding prospect, even in the UK, many are opting to desex before sale, or before delivery.
.
For breeders, another distinct advantage is that pups or kittens with heritable problems can be desexed before puberty, then sold as pets, *& the breeder can be certain they will never be bred. *It doesn't matter what the heritable issue might be - once S/N, they won't pass it on.
.
.
.


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

sskmick said:


> This is out of my depth tbh, I class myself as a responsible pet owner (I own more than a dog) however whilst I do not use and abuse my pets for monitory purposes there are a lot of people who do and I can understand breeders and rescues wanting to protect their animals before sending the off to their new homes. Signed paperwork is not a deterrent for these people, breeding from a non-active registered animal - okay the pups aren't KC registered doesn't stop them from being sold in fact these pups are more of a catch because they tend to be a bit cheaper.
> 
> If I am honest I fell for that 12 years ago - SBT were around £450.00 my lad was advertised no paperwork hence £350.00 brought up in a family home, sounded perfect tbh spent over £1000 in vet fees before he was a year old, we were told by the vet that his mother should never had been bred from and that Duke should never be bred from. Not a problem, no intention of breeding . This type of breeding needs stopping. Duke's mother was dying, she was 2 years old and had had previous litters, I was naive at the time.
> 
> ...


DITTO all above
Spaying before an animal has had a season, IMHO, is akin to giving a girl a hysterectomy before she has had a period !
(I hope that doesn't offend anyone)


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> became SOP for virtually all shelters & rescues between 1985 & 1990,





leashedForLife said:


> For *breeders* especially of cats, pediatric desex is becoming the standard


Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true. 
NO, pediatric s/n is not standard operating procedure in virtually all shelters and rescues. Most definitely not most rescues, not any that I work with. 
Yes, any decent shelter or rescue will s/n an ADULT before rehoming, and many are forced due to lack of man power to do some pediatric s/n, but it's not as ubiquitous as you make it out to be.

As for breeders, I have NEVER heard of a dog breeder who has their puppies s/n before they go to their new home. Not once, never. 
If the breeder is in any way responsible, they will make sure to educate the owner on the importance of s/n at the appropriate time. 
If the breeder isn't responsible, they don't give a flying flamingo about s/n and most certainly aren't going to spend the extra cash on having the puppies s/n before going to their new homes. It's just not something that is done.

I would love to see just ONE example of a dog breeder who routinely s/n their pups before they go to their new homes.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

The problem is that when discussing this topic, we are actually not so much debating the pro's and cons of extremely early neutering, as how to stop irresponsible breeders from breeding ...and actually that is a totally different subject. 

The imposing of pediatric neutering is akin to the imposing of on-lead only parks ....a sledgehammer attempt to control bad owners at the expense of the dog (and at the expense of responsible owners).

In both cases I can see the reasoning behind the move ....but it doesn't mean I agree with it. 

To me, time would be far better spent looking at ways to curb bad breeders and those that 'puppy farm' bitches and abuse their dogs with poor breeding practices. 

Neutering a dog is always going to be a finely balanced act - for hormones effect growth, maturity and behaviour. And eventually health. To send an animal out without hormones before the hormones have done their job .....and in many cases even after the dog is fully grown ....does effect the way that dog matures and in turn how they behave. In my opinion we should not impose it lightly without considering all alternatives.

J


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, @Jamesgoeswalkies:

...
The *imposing of pediatric neutering* is akin to the imposing of on-lead only parks ...

/QUOTE
.
.
pardon me, James, but who is *"imposing" *early desex in the UK? :blink: 
To the best of my knowledge, E-N in the U.K. is an opt-in choice by cat breeders, & is, yes, *encouraged *the Cat Protection League & other feline non-profits, shelters, & humane organizations.
But encouraging a practice isn't shoving it down ppl's throats - it's optional, not mandatory.
.
.
The U-S still has a massive pet-overpopn problem; we kill fewer than we used to, but wholesale slaughter of unwanted surplus pets, year in & year out, is a huge waste - of animal's lives, of healthy young creatures, of money & resources & time.
Most states of the 48 mainland do now require all shelters & registered non-profit rescues to S/N any animal before s/he leaves their possession - i think that's a reasonable requiement, given that we still kill close to 3,000,000,000 'surplus' pets per year - most of them, cats. 
.
.
.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> Most states of the 48 mainland do now require all shelters & registered non-profit rescues to S/N any animal before s/he leaves their possession


Do you have links to back this up please?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> For breeders, another distinct advantage is that pups or kittens with heritable problems can be desexed before puberty, then sold as pets, *& the breeder can be certain they will never be bred. *It doesn't matter what the heritable issue might be - once S/N, they won't pass it on.
> .
> .
> .


That doesn't make sense to me. How would the breeder know the pups had a heritable disease unless it was so bad as to affect them? If so, should they neuter the pups and sell them on? If so who on Earth would buy them? Why did they breed the parents in the first place? I wouldn't want someone who breeds dogs deciding whether my potential pup is neutered or not. None of their business, they're the ones breeding unneutered dogs (that have a heritable disease).

Sounds like a very rare scenario to me though, it's been hard enough to get breeders to microchip, getting them to neuter as standard would be impossible without a change in the law. The law shouldn't decide which dogs are bred and which aren't in that way, else we'd likely be fine breeding extreme flat faced disabled dogs in registered puppy farms, but imprisoned for home breeding a healthy working mongrel for agility and gene pools would evaporate until they've dried up.

Rescues neutering abandoned pups and kittens (and those born in rescue) before rehoming un the US is understandable and although it may cause problems for the dog later in life, I don't think it should put people off adopting, even if they wouldn't choose it themselves. I presume the rescues get the adopters to pay for it before they take the pup. I doubt rescues can afford to keep pups for very long and pups are easier to rehome, so they don't have the luxury of waiting and don't want to risk more breeding.

Those zeros make our unwanted pet problem appear to be a very small drop in the ocean. :Wideyed


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> pardon me, James, but who is *"imposing" *early desex in the UK? :
> .


In the Uk it is not a practised procedure as far as I know...even within the dog shelters ( I know nothing of cats). However, by making the procedure 'acceptable' , it is then in danger of becoming common practice and I would not wish to see that happen. At the moment the 'common practice' is to neuter males at 6 months of age and I know a number of new puppy owners who have felt that this procedure is 'imposed' upon them by the general fact that it is expected. It is only afterwards that some learn that their particular dog may have been better left intact (either because breed growth or behaviour). I do not believe there should ever be a one size fits all practice. I am not against neutering or spaying.

J


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> It is ridiculous to ignore the fact that the testicles and the ovaries secrete steroid hormones that help you grow and develop...ergo, you remove them before growth and development has finished, you risk impacting both!


I totally agree with StormyThai! This is so important to understand, as e.g. molosser breeds develope really slow, and are considered mature at the age of 3 or 4 years old. Neuter them earlier and you risk their development. How irresponsible to recommed neutering for all dogs at that, or any age. We had Zas neutered, when she was about 6 for health reasons, and Oz will never be neutered.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

The only thing I'm going to bother to add to this is my own comparatively miniscule experience of surgery. 
Bitches spayed pre-first oestrus cycle definitely (and unsurprisingly) have smaller ovaries and uterine horns. Everything is less vascular. 

Bitches that have had multiple seasons and those who have whelped have much larger and more vascular reproductive systems and it does seem to be a longer operation for that reason alone. 

I've seen puppies act like they're having a bad time after spaying and I've seen mature bitches that were clearly approaching a season once opened up act like bugger all happened. 
I've seen everything in between.

I don't feel that recovery time or post operative pain is relevent to age. 

I'm absolutely pro neutering however I have no issues with animals remaining entire when in sensible hands. 

I prefer to see bitches neutered once mature as I have seen some disgusting pyometras however this is my personal opinion only. 
I prefer not to see dogs castrated earlier than one year irrespective of breed because I've seen too many nervous aggressive/fearful/immature acting males that were neutered young. Again
My opinion and experience only. Take it or leave it.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> In the Uk it is not a practised procedure as far as I know...even within the dog shelters ( *I know nothing of cats*).


Common in cats, especially in rescue situations, and actively encouraged by all the major charities (RSPCA, Cats Protection, International Cat Care etc).


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Elles:

That doesn't make sense to me. How would the breeder know the pups had a heritable disease unless it was so bad as to affect them? If so, should they neuter the pups and sell them on? If so, who on Earth would buy them? 
...

/QUOTE
.
.
The pup can have entropion, stenotic nares, or any of dozens of other *visible* problems - which are all heritable.
Screw tail? Kinked tail? Cross eyes? Wall eyes? - all heritable, none horrifying; they don't ruin the animal's life. That doesn't mean U want them bred, to produce progeny who are either showing the same fault, or passing it along.
.
Additionally, selling a pet with a "limited registration" is not enuf to keep many pet-owners from breeding.
If instead they are desexed *and* have a limited registration, there's no possibility of breeding.
.
Cat breeders are more & more likely to do pediatric desex. // Dog breeders who do early-neuter are mostly doing it to prevent breeding of animals sold as pets, who aren't breeding quality - or to prevent passing on cosmetic issues, such as mismarks, which may be petty, but U don't want or need them in the gene pool.
.
A Lab with a white locket on her or his chest? A breed with Irish pattern & a "broken" white collar? A Pyr without double dews? All cosmetic, none desirable.
.
.
.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I probably should leave this thread, because I do find things such as stenotic nares and screw tail as horrifying and ruining the animals' lives. Their parents shouldn't be bred and I'd be neutering the breeders. If this kind of thing is an excuse for neutering puppies who are only a few weeks old, it's another part of human monstrosity that I want nothing to do with. Stenotic nares aren't always obvious until the dog is older anyway and plenty of breeders are more than happy to breed adult dogs who suffer them. Disgusting reasons for early neuter imo.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I guess as both mine and @ouesi questions have been ignored I guess either we are both now on ignore or L4L just can't back up the statements


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> I guess as both mine and @ouesi questions have been ignored I guess either we are both now on ignore or L4L just can't back up the statements


I think you get put on ignore when you hold valid points against what she says, and she can't stand it...
I got put on ignore when she tore strips of a pic of Eevee saying she had bad conformation, should get her insured etc typical condescending when I just shared a point and click pic...when in reality the pic was blurry because she was bloody moving on my lumpy un made bed...and she doesn't have bad joints owning Stan whose confirmation is terrible and a great thorough vet I would know...so told her...been ignored ever since..

So take it as a compliment you speak sense, she can't mould you and you obviously make valid points! Probably cant back up points because she's contradicting herself again and again!


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> I think you get put on ignore when you hold valid points against what she says, and she can't stand it...
> I got put on ignore when she tore strips of a pic of Eevee saying she had bad conformation, should get her insured etc typical condescending when I just shared a point and click pic...when in reality the pic was blurry because she was bloody moving on my lumpy un made bed...and she doesn't have bad joints owning Stan whose confirmation is terrible and a great thorough vet I would know...so told her...been ignored ever since..
> 
> So take it as a compliment you speak sense, she can't mould you and you obviously make valid points! Probably cant back up points because she's contradicting herself again and again!


she gets a lot of replies even though so many of us seem to be on ignore. Why don't we all ignore her then there would not have to be long brightly coloured posts of rubbish clogging up our screens. I am assuming i am on ignore or I would not say this as I would not want to hurt her feelings too much.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Elles:

...
Stenotic nares aren't always obvious until the dog is older, anyway...

/QUOTE
.
.
I briefly worked at a pet-shop that sold pups - they cannot be shipped legally before 8-WO, as shippers must comply with the Federal laws regulating agriculture [pets are classed as livestock]. The shop manager *claimed* she bought pups from local breeders, knew her breeders, & had seen their facilities - she lied like a rug. 
After i was hired [...*3* interviews?!?? - for a minimum-wage retail job?!?!?...], i saw the paperwork for the pups - each in an individual manila envelope, behind the check-out counter so customers couldn't help themselves. // We're in Virginia - the pups came from Arkansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois, etc. Bunchers - who are middlemen, buying from wholesale breeders. 
Pet-shops that buy from bunchers do *not* buy locally - they don't want puppy-buyers dropping by to see Mom-dog & Dad-dog, nor seeing what sort of care the breeding dogs are given, or the conditions pups are reared under.
.
During my short time there, quite a few brachy-breed pups came thru - more than half had stenotic nares, *seen by *the tame vet, who was on a monthly retainer to inspect the pups on arrival, & each time, it was noted on their paperwork as a pre-existing condition, along with dirty ears, diarrhea, puppy pyoderma, or any other concern whatever.
None of the buyers were the least bit concerned about it. Pug, Boxer, English Bulldog, CKCS, even a Rott pup with slot nostrils.  In every case, the stenosis was easily seen - & these pups were shipped at 56-days age, as they have a limited "shelf life" & should be sold ASAP.
.
.
.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Blitz said:


> she gets a lot of replies even though so many of us seem to be on ignore. Why don't we all ignore her then there would not have to be long brightly coloured posts of rubbish clogging up our screens. I am assuming i am on ignore or I would not say this as I would not want to hurt her feelings too much.


I don't even think I was that rude in my reply to get ignored...especially as she basically said I was a terrible owner...even got a pm before I had seen the reply it was that bad!

Your post has made me smile...feel sorry for Elles...who is making valid points but of course they mean nothing because she knows better!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, elmthesofties:

...
I was simply making the point that [*pinning an animal sans anaesthesia*] something that has been practiced. You later seemed to imply that *it's impossible to pin down a cat [who is not anaesthetized] during a neuter*, which was the point I was trying to address.
...

/QUOTE
.
.
licensed feline vet Ceiling Kitty also pointed out that she did not grok how anyone could stitch a cat who was wide-awake, during a S/ N procedure.
.
personally, i can't fathom how anyone could make a safe incision, let alone remove internal organs in an OHE or testes during a neuter, & even more, i can't even imagine how in DoG's name U'd place or knot stitches - internally or externally - on a patient who's awake, & not paralyzed by medication.
Ketamine can paralyze an animal for surgery - but U didn't mention that, & i wouldn't suggest it as a single drug for anaesthesia [tho some do use it that way].
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Jamesgoeswalkies

In the UK, [pediatric desex] is not a practised procedure as far as I know... even within the dog shelters ( I know nothing of cats). 
...

/QUOTE
.
.
over 900 vet-practices in the UK specifically offer pediatric neutering - specifically for kittens, but quite possibly some will S/N pups as well.
They're searchable on a national database, set up by a feline welfare organization. 
.
.
.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

I work at a veterinary practice and we don't offer pediatric desex.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

Blitz said:


> Why don't we all ignore her then there would not have to be long brightly coloured posts of rubbish clogging up our screens.


Doesn't work. She has two threads going that I know of where she is the only one posting on them!


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Doesn't work. She has two threads going that I know of where she is the only one posting on them!


I quite liked the meme one that she did...till she made her own up...it just wasn't funny then...but it did just seem 'her thread'.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

https://www.bva.co.uk/News-campaigns-and-policy/Policy/Companion-animals/Neutering/

The bva take on it. They talk of 900 vet practices that offer early neuter for cats, especially ferals, and by early neuter they say up to 4 months old. They say the jury's out on dogs and don't recommend it.

Disgusting puppy farms and dealers are a separate thing altogether. If they start neutering their 6 week old puppies, they'd be giving them even less chance of survival poor little things. I saw that one puppy farmer was jailed recently for selling sick puppies. Not for nearly long enough, but it's a start.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2017)

lullabydream said:


> I quite liked the meme one that she did...till she made her own up...it just wasn't funny then...but it did just seem 'her thread'.


Oh, forgot about that one. Make that at least 3 threads...


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## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> licensed feline vet Ceiling Kitty also pointed out that she did not grok how anyone could stitch a cat who was wide-awake, during a S/ N procedure.
> .
> personally, i can't fathom how anyone could make a safe incision, let alone remove internal organs in an OHE or testes during a neuter, & even more, i can't even imagine how in DoG's name U'd place or knot stitches - internally or externally - on a patient who's awake, & not paralyzed by medication.
> Ketamine can paralyze an animal for surgery - but U didn't mention that, & i wouldn't suggest it as a single drug for anaesthesia [tho some do use it that way]


As far as I know, the cats would be given something similar to premeds so they'd be calmer and a bit out of it, but not fully anaesthetised. I could speculate as to why they did it, but the truth is I don't know.
I'm not condoning it, by any means.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
LeashedForLife said:

Most states of the 48 mainland do now require all shelters & registered non-profit rescues to S/N any animal before s/he leaves their possession

@StormyThai said:
Do you have links to back this up please?
.
.
well, Stormy, i won't search 48 individual states' regulations.  Here's what comes up in a search - 
specifically, "state+laws+mandate+shelter+pets+be+neutered"
.
*Mandatory spay/neuter laws - American Veterinary Medical Association*
https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/sr-spay-neuter-laws.aspx
_While a number of states have proposed mandatory spay/neuter laws, there are ... of euthanizations conducted in Los Angeles' animal shelters every year._


*State Spay and Neuter Laws | Animal Legal & Historical Center*
https://www.animallaw.info/intro/state-spay-and-neuter-laws
_A *majority of states have implemented mandatory spay and neuter laws *to address the ... Releasing agencies (animal shelters, control agencies, etc.) ..._


*Detailed Discussion of State Spay and Neuter Laws | Animal Legal ...*
https://www.animallaw.info/article/detailed-discussion-state-spay-and-neuter-laws
_Detailed Discussion of State Spay and Neuter Laws. Share | ... Pursuant to the sterilization statutes, *animal shelters, animal control agencies and humane *..... 35 Oklahoma and Pennsylvania mandate that the sterilization agreement must be in ...
.

*[PDF] Pet Sterilization in State and Local Law*_
https://www.acc-d.org/docs/default-source/5th-symposium/press_handouts.pdf
_State. 
Definition of Sterilization. 
Sterilization Requirements for Adoption. 
Licensing ... 
*Dogs and cats must be "spayed or neutered" before adoption.* (Cal Food &...
.
.
._


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

They used to restrain male cats for castration by putting them face down into a boot. Barbaric and rightly outlawed now.

You wouldn't be able to neuter a female without anaesthesia. 

In any case, it's against UK law (Animal Welfare Act 2006 and Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007)) to perform surgical procedures without adequate anaesthesia.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Ceiling Kitty:

They used to restrain male cats by putting them *face down, into a boot*. Barbaric and rightly outlawed now.
...

/QUOTE
.
.
Good God!  I'm so glad i never encountered that, nor heard of it, til now. :Jawdrop In-cred-i-bull.
.
.
.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

A quick google reveals...

The states in the US that have early neuter laws dogs and cats must be neutered before 4 months of age..i think I noted 2...

Anyhow people refer to them as slaughterhouse states because it has done absolutely nothing to control dog and cat populations and statistics showed that in fact euthanisia went up at shelters hence the name 'slaughthouse states'

Obviously uproar opposed to the early neutering before the bill passed.

There is a very good article to explain why the laws are useless, and should not have been brought in, in the first place by a chap in San Diego who adopted a cat on a shelters special deal..don't get me wrong he knows nothing about the implications of health of it, but does give a valid point and helps those who have read L4L replies a balanced view on what is being preached.

I thought everyone would be fed up on links, but honestly 2 seconds on google and you are away.

One last thing...breeders of dogs and cats are exempt from the law of neutering, so that would mean they are not responsible for their puppies /kittens either.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> I think you get put on ignore when you hold valid points against what she says, and she can't stand it..


It's called 'The Gospel According To LeashedForLife' and, not unlike the Bible, you're not supposed to add anything to it or subtract anything from it.
Those who are sacrilegious enough to do so, will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (put on ignore) for all eternity.

I've been down here for quite some years now...come on in the water's just fine.:Smug

However, S/N giant breeds as early as this member suggests, is a wholly destructive and dangerous crusade.

I'm appalled, shocked even, that @petforum allows such harmful information to be posted on their site.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Zaros said:


> It's called 'The Gospel According To LeashedForLife' and, not unlike the Bible, you're not supposed to add anything to it or subtract anything from it.
> Those who are sacrilegious enough to do so, will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (put on ignore) for all eternity.
> 
> I've been down here for quite some years now...come on in the water's just fine.:Smug
> ...


You missed the harmful information about breeding as you were poorly...totally off topic as the norm...but by her reckoning you should never breed a boxer because it might get acne! The shameful horror of a dog getting acne...go neuter quick!...However the post got removed as it was nothing more than breed bashing..

I wholeheartedly agree with both counts..i prefer the ignore status, and the spay and neuter. Not anti spay neuter, but not at a ridiculously early age, and its all very dependant on your dog breed and temperament in the males, and giant breeds that would be horrendous early neutering, I wouldn't wish it on my toy breeds either.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> *You missed the harmful information about breeding* as you were poorly...totally off topic as the norm...*but by her reckoning you should never breed a boxer because it might get acne! *The shameful horror of a dog getting acne...go neuter quick!...However the post got removed as it was nothing more than breed bashing..


Obviously a breed bashing post because, as far as I'm aware, Danes, Dobies and Rotties are also prone to acne which, I believe, is a temporary condition much like that in humans. Unless they pick at the sites of irritation of course.

However, here's a medical fact that cannot be ignored. (But will be)

Oscar was diagnosed with chronic HD in 2009. The surgeon who intended to perform the surgery asked us one question prior to the procedure. 'Is he neutered?' 
The veterinarian surgeon claimed the operation would have been a pointless exercise if he had been so.
Oscar then went on to have the replacement replaced in 2014 after he outgrew the original and, according to the same surgeon, stated none of this would have been possible if Oscar had been castrated at an early age.



Zaros said:


> *(2010)* Blood, sweat and many tears later, the enclosed picture is of Oscar, and was taken exactly 8 weeks after his Hip Replacement Surgery. This picture represents his first official free walk.


Today, a dog with balls!


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Aw


Zaros said:


> Obviously a breed bashing post because, as far as I'm aware, Danes, Dobies and Rotties are also prone to acne which, I believe, is a temporary condition much like that in humans. Unless they pick at the sites of irritation of course.
> 
> However, here's a medical fact that cannot be ignored. (But will be)
> 
> ...


I remember or the prayers we said for Oscar before his second op, and there are concerns over neutering both males and females and joint problems, ligaments and the like...

Yes acne is common..but its not as if it would potentially put you off breeding..people who research know their breeds, know dogs are dogs and anything can happen but minor ailments are nothing...but you know there is a list...with hundreds of what apparently should be tested for in breeds...obviously more an awareness so as a toy breed owner I am aware reverse sneezing is common...it doesn't need a test to tell me, its not life threatening, and I know how to help my dogs. That's all I need to know...have an awareness..so am.not a bundle of nerves or a hypochondriac where my vets are saying 'Its her on the phone again...how shall we get rid of her this time, its not a medical emergency and not really anything unless...this happens'...whilst someone truly has an emergency is trying to get through!


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

I must admit I'm totally baffled as to why anyone would join a discussion board where they are guaranteed to encounter others with different opinions & views (that's what discussion is right?) & then feel the need to use the ignore feature! It's a total contradiction.

If someone can't deal with sometimes heated debates & people disagreeing with their views then perhaps they should be asking a question.. should I really be here?

To me hitting the ignore button negates the whole point of joining a forum such as this.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Thank you for those links... (at least I'm not on ignore then )...none back up pediatric neutering. And as breeders are exempt any proof that just one breeder neuters before they leave for new homes would be awesome and would help bring credibility to some of your statements. 
After all you did say breeders are starting to take pediatric neutering as standard...now we are not talking cats here because pediatric neutering is a viable op for cats. We are talking dogs...so please just one breeder to back up your claim would be fab


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, StormyThai:

... please just one breeder to back up your claim would be fab 

/QUOTE
.
.
@StormyThai ,
just one breeder, eh? ... Somehow i very much doubt that would suffice. 
.
for the general reader,
This thread has NOTHING to do with selling pet-owners in the UK on S/N for every single pup & kit in the country.
.
It was begun quite some time ago - see the date on the OP - in response to the many *knee-jerk comments about pediatric desex* *by **shelters & rescues** in the United States *- feel free to take a trip on the Wayback Machine, & see some of the posts from 2009 & 2010, lambasting me personally for thinking it apropos to "rip organs out of babies", to paraphrase, & also insisting that pediatric desex IS NOT SAFE.
There were posts that claimed pups & kittens would die under anaesthesia, that males would be unable to urinate properly & hence develop chronic UTIs because their urethra would be too small, that females would have endless bouts of vaginitis because of underdeveloped vulvas, & on & on. All of which have been studied, & no, it doesn't happen.
At the time, i posted position papers from the Am Vet-Med Assoc, the veterinary-professional association of the USA, explaining that it is considered a very safe procedure. Nobody paid attention, then; it seems nothing has changed, in 7 years.
.
@StormyThai ,
there was a vet who also bred Irish Wolfhounds; he offered his puppy-buyers pediatric desex of their pups before they picked them up, & the vast majority said, yes. The S/N was included in the purchase price of the pup, & he did the surgeries himself. He wrote an open letter about it, which was posted on a website - Chromadanes - & also on a pet-S/N website full of information for the general public, Columbia something-or-other.
This being the 'Net, Chromadanes - the breeder of Great Danes - still exists, but the website has been completely redesigned & has no educational or info pages, only links.
I posted the vet's open letter multiple times on PF-uk, copy-pasted, back in 2009 or '10 - maybe the cr*p search-function will spit it out; more likely, it won't. If i find it, i'll copy-paste it again on this thread.
.
.
And once again, to the General Reader - 
the point was this thread was not shoving early-neuter down anyone's throat. This was supposed to be an *informational* thread, to halt the endless claims that pediatric desex is cruel, MORE painful than pubertal desex, dangerous, needless, etc. As the U-S still kills 2.7 million homeless pets annually, it's needed - AND, per multiple studies, it's safe.
.
I will cheerfully post the AVMA position paper on S/N one more time, in my next comment.
What UK pet-owners do or what UK breeders do is their decision, individually; i'm offering information. What U do with it is Ur own choice. 
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
QUOTE, *bold* in the original:
.
*Pediatric Spay/Neuter Of Dogs And Cats*
The AVMA supports the concept of pediatric spay/neuter in dogs and cats in an effort to reduce the number of unwanted animals of these species. Just as for other veterinary medical and surgical procedures, veterinarians should use their best professional judgment based on the current scientific literature in deciding at what age spay/neuter should be performed on individual animals. The decision should be made by the animal's owner in consultation with a veterinarian after discussing associated risks and benefits.
===================================
.
.
source,
https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Pages/Pediatric-Spay-Neuter-Dogs-And-Cats.aspx
.
.
.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

So no.
You don't have proof to back up the statement that pediatric neutering is becoming standard amongst dog breeders.
Thank you, that's all you needed to say because your anecdotal experience doesn't prove anything I'm afraid.


----------



## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> there was a vet who also bred Irish Wolfhounds; he offered his puppy-buyers pediatric desex of their pups before they picked them up, & the vast majority said, yes.


If this is referring to your opening post, 9 out of 25 is not a vast majority.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, StormyThai:

So no.
You don't have proof to back up the statement that pediatric neutering is becoming standard amongst dog breeders.
Thank you, that's all you needed to say because your anecdotal experience doesn't prove anything I'm afraid.

/QUOTE
.
.
I did not say it's becoming "standard" - as in, done on *every* or *most* litters - by MOST BREEDERS. "Standard" means the majority - IOW over half, at minimum - do it automatically. If i did indeed write that, i'll go back & edit my comment, & happily credit U specifically. 
.
It is, however, becoming *more common *among breeders, especially among cat-breeders. // Dog breeders face much-more market competition in the U-S from pet shops that sell purebred pups from industrial scale puppy-mills. Price-points are a serious problem - ignorant puppy-buyers will cheerfully fork over twice what they'd pay for a well-bred pup from parents tested free of heritable issues, because they can see the puppy in the window & are told a lot of bullsh!t by the sales person.
Impulse buys are common - thoughtful purchases, not so much.  Recouping the added cost of S/N in the purchase price of a puppy is awkward, to say the least. That's why it's often done only when the pup has an obvious visible fault, individually.
In kittens, whole litters are S/N when the breeder offers 'early neutering' a-k-a pediatric desex.
.
@StormyThai - U did ask for ONE breeder, of dogs. That info, on ONE breeder of Danes, was already posted to PF-uk previously. If i find it, i'll re-post it. 
.
.
.


----------



## Guest (Apr 23, 2017)

Yet again, I'm not having any issues with the search function. Literally two clicks, search terms wolfhound (not a breed that commonly comes up, thus a good search term) and pediatric, posted by member leashedforlife.

Here is one of your posts about that Irish Wolfhound vet:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/just-had-my-ass-chewed-off-on-fb.181052/page-6#post-1061294429

And here is the article itself:
http://rockymtnlabradoodles.com/newsite/wp-content/uploads/Early-Spay_neuter.pdf

Note the article is about the safety of the procedure, not the long term effects. And in the article itself the vet admits early s/n does affect growth.

Though we have now successfully found ONE breeder who offers pediatric s/n. More that I though there were  Granted this is like 2 decades ago. Wonder if this guy is still doing it?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, elmthesofties:

If this is referring to your opening post, 9 out of 25 is not a vast majority.

/QUOTE
.
.
thanks for actually reading the quoted excerpt, ElmTS - but actually, yes, vast majority of his puppy-buyers.
.
the final paragraph of that excerpt, QUOTE, *bold *added, CAPS in the original:
.
_"...in our last two litters, *100% of the buyers* to whom we offered this procedure were thrilled to accept. It saved them money and the emotional trauma of having their pet undergo an elective procedure AFTER they had become attached to it. _
_We strongly recommend that breeders consider this option and discuss it with your own veterinarian."_
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Dr Rosebrock has retired from vet-practice - this was all i could find via Google:
.
*Dick Rosebrock | LinkedIn*
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dick-rosebrock-8634916b
Mariposa, California - ‎veterinarian - ‎Animal Care Service
View Dick Rosebrock's professional profile on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is the world's largest business network, helping professionals like Dick Rosebrock discover ...


*The Tustin News from Tustin, California · Page 17 - Newspapers.com*
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/112196781/
May 16, 1974 - 
... Call GORDON SMITH 832-5639 Richard Rosebrock, D.V.M. ANNOUNCES HE IS ASSUMING THE PRACTICE OF Harlan M. Stanton, D.V.M. ...


*Animal Care Center Mariposa, CA 95338*
www.animalcarecentermariposa.com/
The owners, Dr. Dick and Lynne Rosebrock, are very experienced animal care professionals. Dr.Rosebrock is retired after more than 38 years in private ...


*Donors - Donations - The Irish Wolfhound Foundation*
https://www.iwfoundation.org/donations.html
.. Mari E Thomas IMO: Robert Elzer DVM, PhD; Stacey & Preston Thompson; Jean .... Rocky Mountain Irish Wolfhound Assoc;* Dr Dick *& Lynne *Rosebrock*; Mary ...

*[PDF]KM_654e-20170112083236 - Mariposa County*
www.mariposacounty.org/DocumentCenter/View/54075
_Recommend resolution authorizing Chairman to sign contract with *Richard Rosebrock, DVM*, for veterinarian services for Fiscal year 1994 - 1995. The attached ..._


*[PDF]2001-064 - Mariposa County*
www.mariposacounty.org/DocumentCenter/View/41057
...from *Dr. Richard Rosebrock* which he has made to the facility. It was presented ... Rosebrock the true cost will be in the area of $15,000. ... R.W. Rosebrock, D.V.M..


*About Feral TNR - Catnip Society*
catnipsociety.org/feraltnr.html
Ellie McQuarrie- tireless transporter, phone central and so much more. Eileen Bissmeyer DVM- spays and neuters. *Richard Rosebrock DVM - spays and neuters.
*
*Picture 2PO12C4N4 « Northern California Irish Wolfhound Club | Go ...*
nciwc.org/?dn=nciwc.org&pid=2PO12C4N4&paged=4
Nov 17, 2013 - 
Breeder: Lynne Rosebrock & Dick Rosebrock. (Bobby Ott Jr .... Breeder: Lynne & Dick Rosebrock. ..... JUDGE JOHN FITZPATRICK, DVM.


*[DOC]premium list - Northern California Irish Wolfhound Club*
nciwc.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/nciwc-specialty-fun-match-2013.doc
JUDGE JOHN FITZPATRICK, DVM ... Karen Corriea Carol Gabriel Lynne Rosebrock. Joan Trifeletti Karen Watson ... Photographer: *Dick Rosebrock*. Announcer: ...
.
.
maybe someone would like to contact Dr Rosebrok via FaceHack? - i've avoided it since approx Nov-2012, the nonstop attempts to monetize my data & mine my personal details drove me nutz.
.
.
.


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## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> thanks for actually reading the quoted excerpt, ElmTS - but actually, yes, vast majority of his puppy-buyers.
> .
> the final paragraph of that excerpt, QUOTE, *bold *added, CAPS in the original:
> .
> ...


The quote specifically states that in the last litter, it was 7 out of 16, and in the litter before, it was 2 out of 9. So to state that 100% of those offered the procedure also accepted in those same two litters also implies that either a.) this person is a bad liar or b.) they only offer it less than half the time. Why would you only heartily endorse something when they believe it's not often appropriate? Or am I missing something? I'm not totally sure that the majority of homes are into showing.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2017)

So because I'm bored, and I don't have the same issues searching on google and PF that others seem to have, I did some digging:

First I looked up that Irish Wolfhound breeder who L4L cited as the one breeder who does pediatric s/n on their puppies before homing them.
That would be Dr. Rick Rosebrock. Who it seems is still breeding Wolfies, though zero mention of pediatric s/n anywhere on his current website:
http://www.carroyirishwolfhounds.net/index.html (ctrl "F" is your friend if you don't want to read the whole site).

However, it does seem he is an active member in good standing of the Irish Wolfhound Club of America. 
The IWCA states quite clearly on their general heath page the following:
*Spay and Neuter*
Several studies have shown a correlation between early spay/neuter and cancers in large and giant breed dogs. Anecdotally, IWs who are neutered at the "usual" age of 6 months grow up to be taller and leaner than their intact littermates. The topic is complex; research it thoroughly and discuss it with your breeder and veterinarian before deciding if and when to spay or neuter your Wolfhound. An excellent article with references to many peer-reviewed studies can be found here on the Veterinary Information Network website.
https://www.iwclubofamerica.org/generalhealth

Oh, that link they refer you to? That's this article:
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=27205
Which is actually a very excellent, unbiased article that presents the current research and allows the reader to decide for themselves what is appropriate for them.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> That info, on ONE breeder of Danes, was already posted to PF-uk previously. If i find it, i'll re-post it.


I've found it. Reposted it. It was Irish Wolfhounds, not danes.

Damn... I kind of hate L4L has me on ignore since it kind of messes up the whole discussion. 
Hey, can someone who she doesn't have on ignore just C/P the info in my post #117 see if Leashed has any response to it?


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## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

"So because I'm bored, and I don't have the same issues searching on google and PF that others seem to have, I did some digging:

First I looked up that Irish Wolfhound breeder who L4L cited as the one breeder who does pediatric s/n on their puppies before homing them.
That would be Dr. Rick Rosebrock. Who it seems is still breeding Wolfies, though zero mention of pediatric s/n anywhere on his current website:
http://www.carroyirishwolfhounds.net/index.html (ctrl "F" is your friend if you don't want to read the whole site).

However, it does seem he is an active member in good standing of the Irish Wolfhound Club of America.
The IWCA states quite clearly on their general heath page the following:
*Spay and Neuter*
Several studies have shown a correlation between early spay/neuter and cancers in large and giant breed dogs. Anecdotally, IWs who are neutered at the "usual" age of 6 months grow up to be taller and leaner than their intact littermates. The topic is complex; research it thoroughly and discuss it with your breeder and veterinarian before deciding if and when to spay or neuter your Wolfhound. An excellent article with references to many peer-reviewed studies can be found here on the Veterinary Information Network website.
https://www.iwclubofamerica.org/generalhealth

Oh, that link they refer you to? That's this article:
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=27205
Which is actually a very excellent, unbiased article that presents the current research and allows the reader to decide for themselves what is appropriate for them."

edit: Post is by ouesi, I didn't quote it so that anyone who can't view the original can quote this instead.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Yet again, I'm not having any issues with the search function. Literally two clicks, search terms wolfhound (not a breed that commonly comes up, thus a good search term) and pediatric, posted by member leashedforlife.
> 
> Here is one of your posts about that Irish Wolfhound vet:
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/just-had-my-ass-chewed-off-on-fb.181052/page-6#post-1061294429
> ...





ouesi said:


> So because I'm bored, and I don't have the same issues searching on google and PF that others seem to have, I did some digging:
> 
> First I looked up that Irish Wolfhound breeder who L4L cited as the one breeder who does pediatric s/n on their puppies before homing them.
> That would be Dr. Rick Rosebrock. Who it seems is still breeding Wolfies, though zero mention of pediatric s/n anywhere on his current website:
> ...


As you have @ouesi on ignore (or at least it seems that way), what do you think of this post @leashedForLife ?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Opps didn't realise it had already been done...oh well it won't hurt to have it up twice


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

There is statistics to show the 'slaughtethouse' states early spay neutering hasn't stopped what is happening in rescue centres...
Too many in shelters and more euthanised...

Stats were easy to find...L4L likes stats so that dismisses her argument it helps the rescue crisis...it doesn't at all from the stats its making it worse.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Late to the party and nothing really to add to the general discussion, but regarding breeders spaying/neutering before the pups leave the Australian Labradoodle community in the UK spay/neuter their pups before leaving for their new homes.

Example of one such breeder here - http://www.manorborn-australian-labradoodles.com/labradoodle-puppies-ready-now-c2286

And slightly off topic but their prices are excessive "_Our Puppies are from £1395 Depending on colour, and individual Puppy_"_  _so what's more they charge extra for 'rare' colours 

It's certainly not common in the vast majority of breeders however.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Puppy buyers often do their uttermost to avoid complying with a S/N clause in their buying contract -
asking "is this legal?", "can the breeder REALLY repossess my puppy?", & so on.
So delaying desex often means it doesn't get done, at all - as the buyer, despite signing a contract, has zero intention to follow thru, whether that's supposed to be at puberty, after puberty, or in young adulthood.
.
.
*Puppies - enforceability of spay/neuter contract - Straight Dope ...*
boards.straightdope.com › ... › Main › In My Humble Opinion (IMHO)
Mar 21, 2008 - 33 posts - ‎17 authors
Puppies - enforceability of spay/neuter contract In My Humble Opinion (IMHO) ... _We recently bought a purebred golden retriever pup, and ..._

*How to buy a pure breed dog without a spay/neuter contract - Quora*
https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-buy-a-pure-breed-dog-without-a-spay-neuter-contract
_I have to ask, why do you want to buy a purebred dog without a spay-neuter contract? *There are breeders who will sell you a dog without a spay-neuter contract: ...*_
_._
_._
As mentioned above, there *are* breeders who will sell intact pups with no clause that states the buyer will neuter the pup [both sexes] at some specified future time, so why someone would deliberately choose a breeder who DOES include a S/N clause, & then sign the contract despite knowing full well, they won't actually desex that pup, i can't understand.
It's not as if there are a dearth of breeders - no matter where U live in the USA, there are BYBs everywhere who gladly sell intact, don't require S/N... & also offer no health testing on their parent dogs, no behavioral help with their own get, & no returns nor warrantees, if something catastrophic happens later.
U may or may not get what U pay for - as quite a few of these profit-minded folks charge more than ethical breeders with health-tested sires & dams, who will take back a dog of their breeding, or who contribute the price of a puppy to the national breed-rescue with every litter they produce.
.
.
.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> Puppy buyers often do their uttermost to avoid complying with a S/N clause in their buying contract -
> asking "is this legal?", "can the breeder REALLY repossess my puppy?", & so on.
> ...


I dont suppose you will see this but I would imagine that there are very very few breeders that would put that clause in the contract and , even though I would want to spay a bitch, there is no way I would sign a contract. If I buy a dog it is mine and nice though it is to have an interested breeder that you can keep in contact with no way would I expect them to have any rights whatsoever over the pup once I had paid for it and taken it away.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> Puppy buyers often do their uttermost to avoid complying with a S/N clause in their buying contract -


"Often"? What does "often" mean? That you found a post or two with puppy buyers asking if they have to neuter their pet?

The reality is, in the US, the vast majority of pet dogs are neutered because education about the importance of neutering in controlling the pet overpopulation crisis has been so effective. 
Also because so many towns and municipalities have mandatory spay/neuter requirements. Or you simply end up paying far more to license an intact dog than a neutered one. 
In basic English, spay/neuter for dogs is common practice in the US and you are far more likely to find neutered dogs in pet homes than intact ones.

Which means there is no real pressing need for breeders to ensure the puppies they sell get fixed. It tends to happen anyway as most Americans are already getting their dogs fixed.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
just in case anyone needs a printable form for their upcoming litter,
.
*Article: Spay or Neuter Agreement - PuppyDogWeb*
https://puppydogweb.com/articles/spay.htm
Spay or Neuter Agreement. 
Click Here to Download a Printable Version. Check with the laws of your state before you set up an agreement.


*Pet Adoption Contract - Printable Contracts*
https://www.printablecontracts.com/Pet_Adoption_Contract.php
Pet Adoption Contract. ... Create your own printable contract - FREE! ... the cost of initial immunization, deworming, neutering/spaying and pest prevention.


*Printable Forms - Partners for Animal Welfare Society, Inc.*
www.pawshancock.org/info/display?PageID=6248
Printable Forms. 
Adoption Application · Adoption Agreement · Adopter Foster Agreement -- "_*Adopters who are taking a pet that is not yet spayed or neutered must ...*_
.
.
there! - now U can make it any age U like.  U're welcome.
.
.
.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2017)

Did you actually understand what was being said about the dangers of having a dog neutered too early before he/she has reached full maturity and for some dogs even after that? Or what was said about neutering even be necessary in many cases? It is sad that none of the information so many of us posted got through to you.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> I did not say it's becoming "standard" - as in, done on *every* or *most* litters - by MOST BREEDERS. "Standard" means the majority - IOW over half, at minimum - do it automatically.


Do YOU read what you post?


leashedForLife said:


> For *breeders* especially of cats, pediatric desex is becoming the standard


And ONE breeder who used to do it (and appears to no longer be doing pediatric neutering), does not = "standard" under any definition....


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, MrsZee:

Did you actually understand what was being said about the dangers of having a dog neutered too early before he/she has reached full maturity and for some dogs even after that? Or what was said about neutering even be necessary in many cases? It is sad that none of the information so many of us posted got through to you.

/QUOTE
.
.
@MrsZee ,
I'm not discussing "how early is too early" - i simply posted info about the *safety of pediatric S/N, *as performed on literally millions of shelter pets & pets re-homed by rescue.
Pediatric S/N is now quite commonly done on *kittens *in the UK, & as in studies in the U-S & Australia, they bleed less, are under GA for a shorter time, have fewer complications of all sorts from infections to post-op pain, & heal much faster.
.
If U want to discuss the horrors of neutering infants, U'll have to take it up with someone else.  I now live in an area of the U-S where over 75% of all dogs & cats are desexed, & in metro-Boston, that figure becomes an average of 90% spayed or neutered.
The dogs i see on the sidewalks, subway, buses, in public parks, etc, are coping amazingly well with their deprived reproductively-sterile status; behaviorally, the dogs i see with problems are overwhelmingly those who arrived as young adults from out-of-state, brought to Mass by the many rescue organizations *who pick them from high-kill, overcrowded shelters* & "import" them to MA to be adopted. 
They're extremely recognizable - most are hound-mixes.  U don't see many Plott hounds, or Coonhounds, etc, in New England.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
from the ASPCA, the original 'local' Society for the Prevention of Animal Cruelty in NYC -
source,
http://aspcapro.org/resource/spayne...efits-and-best-practices-pediatric-spayneuter
.
.
QUOTE,
*Benefits and Best Practices of Pediatric Spay / Neuter*
_Broadly speaking, pediatric neutering refers to the surgical sterilization of both male and female dogs & cats under the traditional age of 6 months. It's been the subject of ongoing debate among veterinarians over the years, with the greatest concern usually reserved for surgeries performed on puppies and kittens who are 6 - 8 weeks of age or under 2 pounds._

_Research, however, reveals the many benefits of pediatric spay / neuter and lays many of the fears to rest. Keep reading for a comprehensive overview and explanation of best practices by the ASPCA's Dr. Lila Miller, DVM, Vice President of Shelter Medicine._

*Benefits of Pediatric Spay / Neuter*

_Veterinarians who are familiar with the surgery and anesthesia agree that pediatric surgery is *much less physiologically stressful* for younger patients..
_
_Animals should be *fasted for only 2 - 4 hours* in order to prevent them from developing hypoglycemia, & this can be an advantage for clients who may forget to withhold food for several hours prior to surgery. (Many surgeons still recommend an overnight fast for adult dogs, although this practice is also falling out of favor.)
_
_Animals are *awake & ambulatory usually within an hour* of completion of the surgery, so they can be fed a small meal and then sent home the same day, avoiding an overnight stay in the hospital.
_
_Experienced veterinarians report that the surgery is *faster, easier, and less stressful on both patient and surgeon*.
_
_There are *fewer perioperative complications* associated with pediatric neutering. 
_
_Spaying a female *before her first estrus* has a strong protective effect against development of mammary gland neoplasia later in life.
_
_Pediatric surgery is l*ess expensive* because of the use of fewer materials, and because less staff time is needed for surgery and pre- and post-operative prep and monitoring. 
_
_ If the procedure is performed or scheduled when the last vaccination is given at 3 to 4 months of age, the veterinarian does not have to worry about the client forgetting to return, or shopping around and going elsewhere for the surgery. It can be included as part of a kitten/ puppy care package of vaccinations, deworming, & neutering. 
The unintentional *delay in neutering* *pets* *is often responsible for* *the production of accidental litters*, that end up at shelters.
_
_Embracing the concept of "one health" that promotes the link between animal and human health and welfare requires veterinary participation in solving community problems. Studies have shown that *intact animals are much more likely to be relinquished* to shelters than neutered ones._
_Pediatric neutering is an essential component of a comprehensive community *strategy to end the euthanasia of unwanted companion animals* in the United States.
_
_The best strategy includes education about responsible pet ownership, increased efforts to improve adoptions, counseling to keep animals with behavior problems in their homes, & the *prevention of births of unwanted animals*. Surgical sterilization is one part of the solution that only veterinarians can provide.

_


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

elmthesofties said:


> "So because I'm bored, and I don't have the same issues searching on google and PF that others seem to have, I did some digging:
> 
> First I looked up that Irish Wolfhound breeder who L4L cited as the one breeder who does pediatric s/n on their puppies before homing them.
> That would be Dr. Rick Rosebrock. Who it seems is still breeding Wolfies, though zero mention of pediatric s/n anywhere on his current website:
> ...


Still no answer?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
breed rescue via Petfinder -
https://www.petfinder.com/animal-sh...ing-a-pet-adoption-organization/breed-rescue/
.
.
there are currently 8,499 adoptable dogs, all breeds or mixes, within 100 miles -
https://www.petfinder.com/pet-search?location=Massachusetts&animal=dog&breed=&distance=100
.
.
8,370 adoptable cats within 100 miles, many in Connecticut, not MA -
https://www.petfinder.com/pet-search?location=Massachusetts&animal=cat&breed=&distance=100
.
.
& moving South, where the problem of pet-overpopn is far worse - choosing random cities:
.
1,416 dogs available within 100 miles of N'Awlins
https://www.petfinder.com/pet-searc...breed=&filtersUpdated=true&distance=100&name=
.
.
Atlanta, GA -
5,477 available dogs within 100 miles:
https://www.petfinder.com/pet-searc...reed=&filtersUpdated=false&distance=100&name=
.
.
& West, where again things are much worse than New England -
Indianapolis, Indiana -
3,123 available dogs within 100 miles:
https://www.petfinder.com/pet-searc...reed=&filtersUpdated=false&distance=100&name=
.
.
Tuscon, Arizona -
2,655 available dogs within 100 miles:
https://www.petfinder.com/pet-searc...reed=&filtersUpdated=false&distance=100&name=
.
.
These are the lucky ones - they are listed, most are photographed & described, they have ppl working to find them homes, they have volunteers willing to transport them including volunteer pilots willing to *fly pets to adoptive homes, at no cost or minimal cost*.
There are still many pets in rural shelters & even municipal shelters in large urban areas, who are not listed, have no picture posted, & won't be adopted before their time runs out.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, StormyThai:

Still no answer?

_________________________

@StormyThai ,
what exactly do U want? - i posted his Facebook page & other findable info, I don't have his home phone number. 
Maybe contact him via the IW breed club.
.
.
.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I've been watching this from the sidelines a bit, as coincidentally I'm actually in the middle of a literature review for early neutering in cats. It only skims over the canine literature but if I can find the time I'll try and delve deeper into the dog side of things too.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Not in the uk. Cats can become pregnant at 4-6 months. Early or paediatric neuter in a kitten could be considered to be 8-12 weeks and that isn't common outside of rescues. Nor is 4 months. One vet practice who recommends 4 months for neuter say only 15% of clients take it up. The rest are 6 months plus. It does sound as though 4 months is cool for cats, though not the best time for dogs. I don't have cats. 

Shelter/rescues have different priorities. 

I'm not sure where this thread is going. Ok, tiny kittens and puppies might appear not to suffer at the time and heal quickly (the same can be said of older animals if they're healthy) and shelters are well advised to make certain their animals cannot be bred from when rehoming. The rest is debateable and should be up to the individual, their circumstances, their animal and their vet. 

Not neutered does not equal puppies. Not neutered before 6 months does not equal puppies. The sole reason it's done early by rescues is to prevent puppies. Preventing more puppies in a rescue centre is a priority. Responsible pet owners can prevent unwanted puppies by using doors and making sure intact male dogs can't get to intact, in season female dogs. They have the luxury of weighing up pros and cons. Rescues may not.

In the uk horses are gelded by a vet with an anaesthetic too. Anything else is illegal I believe.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, StormyThai:
> 
> Still no answer?
> 
> ...


A) What is so difficult about quoting people correctly? Seriously, why can you not use the quote function properly? (And why does it bug me so much that you wont?)
B) Your ONE example of a dog breeder who does pediatric neuters on their puppies before they go to their new homes, appears to no longer do it. Why do you think that might be? Could it possibly be that the new information about the benefits of allowing a dog - especially a giant breed dog, to fully develop before neutering has influenced their policies? You know, like, new information presents itself, you look at it, digest it, and if needed alter your stance? 
C) I linked the guy's website which was very easy to find. What's your point?



Elles said:


> I'm not sure where this thread is going.


You and me both. It's an exercise in moving goal posts. First it's reviving a 7 year old thread that NO ONE replied to, then the argument that since we castrate livestock in the field when they're young, it's okay to do for pets, then it's becoming standard practice, no that's not what I said, it's something else. Then spay neuter contracts aren't enforceable, now let's link spay neuter contracts for no one who asked for them, now shelter info links, and I don't know what else.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> from the ASPCA, the original 'local' Society for the Prevention of Animal Cruelty in NYC -
> source,
> ...


I cant believe I read this but what absolute baloney.

So one reason for neutering baby puppies is because the owner does not need to fast them for so long so less likely to forget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can also be sent home the same day - erm, that is normal with any age of dog.

If it is done at the same time as vaccination the client is less likely to forget or go to a different practice

The other reasons are pretty stupid but those 3 are outstandingly stupid.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Honestly not sure why anyone engages in these debates about this. L4L melts brains posting reams of coloured font which most people no longer attempt to read, people counter, L4L ignores we get more font more references L4L stance doesn't change those debating the other side don't change their thinking. It's like Groundhog Day!

"The *definition of insanity* is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> what exactly do U want? - i posted his Facebook page & other findable info, I don't have his home phone number.
> Maybe contact him via the IW breed club.
> .
> .
> .


A) What is so difficult about quoting people correctly? Seriously, why can you not use the quote function properly? (And why does it bug me so much that you wont?)
B) Your ONE example of a dog breeder who does pediatric neuters on their puppies before they go to their new homes, appears to no longer do it. Why do you think that might be? Could it possibly be that the new information about the benefits of allowing a dog - especially a giant breed dog, to fully develop before neutering has influenced their policies? You know, like, new information presents itself, you look at it, digest it, and if needed alter your stance? 
C) I linked the guy's website which was very easy to find. What's your point?

-posted by Ouesi


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2017)

Blitz said:


> I cant believe I read this but what absolute baloney.
> 
> So one reason for neutering baby puppies is because the owner does not need to fast them for so long so less likely to forget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Can also be sent home the same day - erm, that is normal with any age of dog.
> ...


Avoiding an overnight stay is ludicrous too. Never had any of mine need an overnight stay for a spay or castration.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I did post this update re the vet / IW breeder who offered free ped-S/N with his pups.
.
.
leashedForLife said:
.
_Dr Rosebrock has retired from vet-practice..._
.
.
As to whether or not he still breeds IWs & sells pups, shows, etc, deponent knoweth not. 
.
.
.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> As to whether or not he still breeds IWs & sells pups, shows, etc, deponent knoweth not.


YES YOU DO KNOW because multiple people have posted for you the link to his CURRENT website where he no longer advocates pediatric spay and neuter!!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
The American Humane Assoc are the nice folks who monitor film, theatre, & other performances that feature animals or children, & they append their Seal of Approval to movies, etc, that 'harm no animal / child in the making of this...'
This is their review of pediatric desex, safety, findings, etc. AHA includes a yet-another citation for the facts i'd previously posted - a vet-surgical textbook. 
.
.
*Juvenile Spay/Neuter - American Humane*
https://www.americanhumane.org/fact-sheet/juvenile-spayneuter/

============ pasted copy below ================

Aug 25, 2016 - 
'We cannot kill our way out of pet overpopulation. Spay & neuter - it's the only way.'
~~~~~~~ W. Marvin Mackie, DVM, pioneer of juvenile S/N & creator of the QuickSpay® technique

_American Humane supports the practice of juvenile spay/neuter and the establishment of high-quality, high-volume, low-cost spay/neuter clinics that ensure the accessibility and affordability of spay/neuter services for all pet owners across the country._

*WHEN IS IT SAFE TO SPAY OR NEUTER MY PET?*
_Generally, it is safe to spay or neuter most kittens and puppies at 8 weeks of age. However, be sure to check with your veterinarian and have your pet evaluated before scheduling spay or neuter surgery._

*ISN'T IT MORE DANGEROUS TO PERFORM SURGERY ON A YOUNG KITTEN OR PUPPY?*
_No. In fact, *the risk of surgical complications is much lower for kittens & puppies* than for mature pets:_


_The reproductive organs of juvenile cats and dogs are *much less vascular* than those of adult animals, which allows for an easier, *faster surgical procedure* & reduces the risk of excessive bleeding during and after surgery._
_Faster surgery equates to *less time under anesthesia*, thus reducing the anesthetic risks._
_Anesthetic risks are further reduced because *juvenile animals metabolize anesthesia more rapidly* & recover from its effects more quickly than adult animals._
_The tissues of juvenile animals are more resilient, resulting in *faster healing & less post-operative pain* and stress._
_(Source: _
_Small Animal Surgery Textbook, 3rd Edition, 2007. Theresa Welch Fossum, DVM, MS, PhD, Dipl ACVS)_

*WON'T MY FEMALE PET BE HEALTHIER IF I ALLOW HER TO HAVE ONE LITTER, OR GO THROUGH ONE HEAT CYCLE?*
_No. In fact, the opposite is true. 
*If spayed before their first heat cycle, the risk of mammary cancer in female dogs and cats is virtually eliminated*. If allowed to go through even just one heat cycle, the risk of developing mammary cancer later in life greatly increases._

*DON'T I HAVE UNTIL AT LEAST 8 OR 9 MONTHS OF AGE BEFORE MY FEMALE PET COMES INTO HEAT?*
_No. 
While 8 to 9 months is most typical for large-breed dogs, the fact is that cats & *small-breed dogs often come into heat as early as 5 months of age*. SPAY/USA, which operates over 1,000 high-volume spay/neuter clinics across the country, found that *9% of 5-month-old female cats were either pregnant or in heat at the time they were presented for spaying.*_

*WON'T MY MALE PET BE HEALTHIER IF I ALLOW HIM TO "MATURE" BEFORE NEUTERING HIM?*
_No. There are no health benefits in allowing a male dog to reach sexual maturity before neutering. And waiting can result in undesirable behaviors that can sometime be irreversible._
_Sexually mature male dogs and cats typically urine mark their territory. Once this behavior becomes routine for the animal, it can sometimes be impossible to break, even if the animal is then neutered._
_The same is true of aggressive behaviors in sexually mature males. It is much better to prevent these behaviors from developing by neutering your dog or cat at a young age."_
_=========================_


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> There are no health benefits in allowing a male dog to reach sexual maturity before neutering.


That's a lie.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

All this quoting of 'sources', articles, studies & the like which are ALL very one sided & biased does come across very PETA like if you ask me.

This quote in particular - "'We cannot kill our way out of pet overpopulation. Spay & neuter - it’s the only way" is very AR type propaganda. If it's the only way, are they suggesting they would like to see an end to all animal breeding?
How do they suppose you can police every dog/cat being spayed/neutered? What about the BYB's and the like who are unlikely to conform to any legislation saying otherwise?

It's just ridiculous.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
U wanted another breeder who does pre-purchase S/N on their pups, @StormyThai - here ya go. 
.
source:
http://www.ohiolabradoodles.com/ESN.htm - breeder, Melorich Labradoodles
.
======== pasted copy below ============

Why Does My Puppy Arrive Already Neutered?

...there are some obvious advantages to choosing to desex an animal earlier rather than later. These include the following:








People do not have to wait 5-7 months to desex their pets. The procedure can be over and done with earlier.







Dogs neutered very early will not attain sexual maturity and will therefore be unable to sire any pups of their own. This role in canine population control is why most shelters choose to neuter early.







It makes it possible for young pups (6-16 weeks old) to be sold by breeders and pet-shops already desexed. This again helps to reduce the incidence of irresponsible breeding - dogs sold already desexed cannot reproduce.







For owners who choose to get their pets microchipped during anesthesia, there is no inconvenient wait of 5-7 months before this can be done.







Some of the behavioral problems and concerns commonly associated with entire male animals may be prevented altogether if the pup is desexed well before achieving sexual maturity (e.g. cocking the leg to urinate).







From a veterinary anesthesia and surgery perspective, the duration of surgery and anesthesia is much shorter for a smaller, younger animal than it is for a fully grown, mature animal. I take about 3-7 minutes to neuter a male pup of about 9 weeks of age compared to about 10-15 minutes for an older animal.







The post-anaesthetic recovery time is quicker and there is less bleeding associated with an early spay or neuter procedure.















From a veterinary business perspective, the shorter duration of surgery and anesthesia time is good for business. More early age neuters can be performed in a day than mature dog neuters and less anaesthetic gas is used on each individual, thereby saving the practice money per procedure.







Routine, across-the-board, early spay and neuter by shelters avoids the need for a sterilization contract to be signed between the shelter and the prospective pet owner. A sterilization contract is a legal document signed by people who adopt young, non-desexed puppies and kittens, which declares that they will return to the shelter to have that dog or cat desexed when it has reached the recommended sterilization age of 5-7 months. The problem with these sterilization contracts is that, very often, people do not obey them (particularly if the animal seems to be "purebred"); they are rarely enforced by law and, consequently, the adopted animal is left undersexed and able to breed and the cycle of pet reproduction and dumped litters continues.

=================
.
.
.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> All this quoting of 'sources', articles, studies & the like which are ALL very one sided & biased does come across very PETA like if you ask me.
> 
> This quote in particular - "'We cannot kill our way out of pet overpopulation. Spay & neuter - it's the only way" is very AR type propaganda. If it's the only way, are they suggesting they would like to see an end to all animal breeding?
> How do they suppose you can police every dog/cat being spayed/neutered? What about the BYB's and the like who are unlikely to conform to any legislation saying otherwise?
> ...


It doesn't work...in the states where early neutering is enforced...rescue centres still flooded and euthanasia rose each year...because getting people to spay and neuter pets isn't the main problem with why rescue centres struggle...
Same problems as here were stated...too rigid for adoptions, price charged for adoption, and most of the problem there was feral dogs over population too...and various other reasons..

There was a great quote in one article..where someone must know it correctly, which really is what Ouesi has been saying responsible owners will spay neuter and not breed for profit...the quote was something along the lines of
Those who are responsible don't need laws to follow...


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Can someone tell me why L4L keeps quoting kittens/cats...not many dispute the cat/kitten thing, although maybe not as early as 8 weeks but no one is disputing and I am sure we are in DOG chat!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
@Dogloverlou ,
"pet overpopulation" specifically refers to the nonstop euthanasia of homeless, unwanted, surplus - CHOOSE OR INSERT THE ADJECTIVE U PREFER - pets, across the USA.
It's not about responsible pet-owners who buy a dog or cat intended for breeding, or buy a well-bred pet directly from a breeder - that's a small part of the U-S market, less than 1 in 4. Most pet dogs are bought from BYBs or small-scale puppy-millers, bought via a classified ad, or adopted from a shelter or rescue.
.
U-S shelters used to kill 15,000,000 per year - that rate held for over 10 years, without falling. Then for a long while, we stalled at 3 to 5-million per year. Finally, we are currently killing 2,700,000 dogs & cats each year in the USA, in public & private shelters.
.
2.7M is a helluva lot better than 3 to 5M, which is also a massive improvement over 15M per year. However, everyone i've asked would prefer that *no* healthy or treatable, behaviorally normal or rehabilitatable pets, be euthanized out of hand.
If we don't shoot them - still done in some rural shelters - gas them with CO2, smother them in vacuum chambers, or overdose them with barbiturates, what would U suggest we do with them?
I don't think the UK would gladly open their doors to 2.7 million pets emigrating from the USA. :Meh
.
Avoiding the unplanned or "surprise" or deliberate _"one litter, for the kids"_ , or on-purpose breedings that have multiple leftover pups, means either every dog owner magically becomes a *responsible *owner, which is frankly a fantasy, or preventing pregnancies by curtailing fertility. // It worked very well in New England - which now has the joyful problem of importing kittens & puppies from other states, to be adopted by local families. :Happy Yay!
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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

This is relevant to what me and Zaros was speaking about earlier in this thread...
Might be relevant to Meezey, Labradrk and RPH...apologises if I am wrong when on the other thread discussing crutiate problems...

Article 2012...and more like it...but has references what's been shown and opposing revised reviews..brief to the point...might be more upto date info but am damned if am wasting my time googling forever...

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/January-2012/Is-Early-Neutering-Hurting-Pets/


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I think most of us would agree with this list of "red flags for bad breeders", from a BMD fans website -
http://www.bmdcnv.org/puppy/BadBreederRedFlags.pdf
.
.
an info page on ethical breeding, from a breed of Ridgebacks -
https://www.maijanirrs.com/responsible-breeders

Quote, *bold *added for emphasis:

_"Many reputable breeders make a distinction between 'show-potential' & 'pet-quality' or 'companion' puppies, & price the dogs appropriately - show-potential puppies being approximately 30 - 50% higher than companion puppies... _
_Show-potential means that the dog has *no obvious faults* that would make it difficult or impossible for the dog to achieve an AKC championship. The most common faults are a *defective ridge* (too short, less than or more than two crowns), *excessive white*, or other *color faults*. Other faults that might be present are a *kinked tail* or *imperfect bite*. Faults of this sort are *usually cosmetic rather than functional* and do not affect the health of the dog. Remember that the breeder is making a decision that a puppy is 'show potential' at a very young age, usually seven or eight weeks of age._
_It takes a fair amount of experience to make these kinds of predictions with any confidence, which is a compelling reason to buy from a breeder who either has considerable experience in the breed, or who has a network of breeder friends who can serve as consultants."_

Any of those faults are also heritable - & by S/N of the pups before sale, the breeder could ensure that those flawed pups would not grow up to produce either less-than-standard Rhodies, or indeed any progeny, crossbred, accidental, or other. Missing premolars are a recurring problem in multiple breeds.
There are multiple other cosmetic or petty issues that are, nonetheless, not wanted in a purebred dog - all of them heritable.
.
.
.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Wow. How awful. Risk the dog suffering health problems brought about by early neuter and reduce the gene pool even further, because a dog has a purely cosmetic 'difference' that doesn't suit the showing fraternity. :Wideyed

As for the reasons in an earlier post, suggesting that a dog cocking his leg is a behavioural problem and vets should promote early neuter because they can do more dogs and make more money. Words fail.

Early paediatric neuter of puppies has the potential, is even likely, to cause health issues when the dog is older, as evidenced by numerous links in this thread. Understandable rescues taking the risk, but the show fraternity doing it because a pup has too many white hairs and they're frightened someone will breed them is disgusting and would make them far from reputable as a breeder in my book.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2017)

I'm sitting here reflecting on how surreal it is to try to have any sort of reasonable conversation with someone who, well, isn't reasonable. Then I realized what an excellent example this is of the techniques used by pseudoscience and outright craziness like flat earthers.

Things like:
- Take a true fact and present it as a legitimate reason why your premise is true, and stick your fingers in your ears and sing "lalalalala I can't hear you" to any other relevant true facts that don't support your argument.
Ex: very young puppies have less vascular gonads because they are undeveloped at that stage - (true), therefore pediatric spay/neuter is better for the dog than waiting for sexual maturity.

- Bombard the reader with legitimate sounding links and articles that may or may not have anything to do with the topic at hand.

- Oversimplify complex topics

- False equivalences (livestock are all early neutered).

- Move goal posts. Often. 

- Purple font, always use purple font

(Okay, I made that last one up. Sorry. Not sorry.)


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## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

I think it's interesting that you mention red flags for bad breeders at this precise moment. The breeder you _just_ mentioned who carries out paediatric neutering on their Labradoodles mentions how it makes them better dogs because they view you more as a 'pack leader', they worry about their puppies going to puppy farms if they're not neutered, and the bullet points were generally a bit rubbish. They were either circular, business focused, talk about convenience, or mention neutering as though it's the only option for population control... which doesn't strike me as good enough for a permanent procedure with lifelong implications. I don't know about you, but those points all raise red flags for me.

Going to try and duck out of this discussion from now, it's pretty clear we're not going to see eye to eye.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2017)

Regarding pet overpopulation in the US, it is a complex, multi-faceted issue that needs to be addressed from multiple angles. Yes, getting owners to spay/neuter is an important part of tackling this issue, but it's not as important a piece as some agendas (PeTA/HSUS) would have you believe. In Norway for example, neutering is not commonplace at all, and there is not this huge issue with unwanted pets. What do they know that the US doesn't?

We can't even get a handle on puppy mills, not quite sure how we're supposed to get those puppy mills to neuter the pups before they ship 'em off to be sold...

Education though has worked tremendously well. Decades ago no one batted an eye at getting a dog from a pet shop, now you'd have to be living under a rock to not know that's not how to get a dog. The same has happened with neutering. Just vets alone are doing a fabulous job educating owners on the importance of avoiding accidental litters and that bitches don't need to have "just one litter" etc. But there are also excellent PSAs out there educating owners on not breeding indiscriminately. Education works. And, as many of us on here already know, it's very possible to keep an intact animal and not ever have a litter. 

Personally I will always have bitches spayed. I have seen too many gross pyos to ever risk keeping a bitch intact. I might be convinced to do an OSS, but will probably continue to opt for a regular spay once the bitch has reached maturity.

Dogs, I don't really care either way. I grew up in a time/place where everyone kept males intact and never saw any major issues from it. That said, as an adult, I have seen countless male dogs neutered in shelter/rescue situations and it's by and large a non-issue surgery both physically and behaviorally. It doesn't make jerk dogs nice, and it doesn't make nice dogs jerks. It just gets rid of the testicles.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I see the ridgeback breeder doesn't advocate neutering the dogs before they home them, but rather say that the perfectly healthy pups who wouldn't do well showing would go on to do other jobs such as agility. My bad, I didn't read the link and assumed the breeder was neutering 8 week old pups because they weren't perfect show dogs, something I couldn't agree with.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, elmthesofties:

I think it's interesting that you mention red flags for bad breeders at this precise moment. The breeder you _just_ mentioned who carries out paediatric neutering on their Labradoodles mentions how *it makes them better dogs because they view you more as a 'pack leader'...*

/QUOTE
.
.
ElmTS,
are U *at all* familiar with me, or my views on training & B-mod? --- IOW, have U ever "met" me virtually on PF-uk, *outside *of this particular thread? :Meh
.
please do look at what i've posted over the past 9-years or so, about "pack leader" bullsh!t & other DogWrassler claptrap. That the author of the "red flag" list also included her own or praps others' silly parroting of CM/DW rubbish does *not* *mean* *i agree with it* - since, if i did, don't U think i'd have QUOTED THAT, TOO?!
.
i'm disgusted with this assumption that of COURSE, if i quote *one part* of the entire website, i absolutely MUST agree with every word written on it - particularly as i'd never seen that website before in my life, & came across it today while looking for something else.
.
Now, as i'm the only person replying to multiple other people who are not merely disagreeing with the facts i've posted from multiple sources, many of them medical / veterinary, but now on top of a group of ppl chewing me out, i have @elmthesofties implying that i'm one of those 'ard-handed ar$ewipes who jerk dogs about with a double-handed grip on the leash, use prong & choke collars, shock them into abject appeasement or outright learned helplessness, & throttle disobedient dogs by stringing them up off the ground...
i'll be taking a break. 
I'd suggest U might get to know me better, @elmthesofties , by reading the many posts on "Behavior & Training" sub-forum - & making fewer unwarranted assumptions.
.
.
.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, elmthesofties:
> 
> I think it's interesting that you mention red flags for bad breeders at this precise moment. The breeder you _just_ mentioned who carries out paediatric neutering on their Labradoodles mentions how *it makes them better dogs because they view you more as a 'pack leader'...*
> 
> ...


Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's not the impression I got from @elmthesofties post whatsoever..

As I understood it, the point they were making was that their opinions on early spay/neuter are pretty much null and void since they're still stuck in the dark ages with their pack leader rubbish. If they can't be arsed to keep up with the times on dominance theory, they're not going to be up to date with their early spay/neutering opinions either.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

That's how I saw it too. If they are the kind of people who follow the pack leader/cm rubbish, it invalidates anything else they have to say about dogs. We wouldn't give them the time of day.

I wouldn't think for one second that you aren't anything other than kind to dogs and want the best for them. 

I can still understand why rescues in the USA want to be 100% certain that dogs they rehome don't breed and hence neuter early so they can rehome and make more space. It's probably harder in the USA to keep tabs on puppies they rehome given the size of the usa and that microchipping isn't compulsory there like it is here. They have to make the best they can out of a bad job with the information they have available. At least the caring, reputable ones anyway.

If early neuter can be avoided though, clearly from the numerous links it would be better for the dogs' long term health to wait and in some cases not neuter at all, so long as unwanted puppies can be avoided. It's a shame when irresponsible, neglectful owners impact on the rest of us and the dog population as a whole.


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## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

Nettles said:


> Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's not the impression I got from @elmthesofties post whatsoever..
> 
> As I understood it, the point they were making was that their opinions on early spay/neuter are pretty much null and void since they're still stuck in the dark ages with their pack leader rubbish. If they can't be arsed to keep up with the times on dominance theory, they're not going to be up to date with their early spay/neutering opinions either.


Said I was going to duck out, but just to clear it up, this was what I was trying to say.
I know very well that LFL is against dominance theory because I have read their posts. (I lurk much more than I post.. I have read a lot of LFL's comments and agree with them a lot of the time) That's exactly why I mentioned it. No offence was intended.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sometimes I wonder what it's like to live in a world where only the "facts" that matter are the ones that match your (general you) opinion...all other "facts" are dismissed or just plain ignored because God forbid you question your own beliefs!

I don't wonder for long because my brain just won't let me ignore, it constantly ask questions even if that means throwing my hands up realising that my original thoughts may be wrong!

Meh...I'm just going to wait until @Ceiling Kitty gets around to letting us know about her thoughts once she has had time to read the literature...I am very interested in any thoughts she may have on the subject


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> A) What is so difficult about quoting people correctly? Seriously, why can you not use the quote function properly? (And why does it bug me so much that you wont?)
> B) Your ONE example of a dog breeder who does pediatric neuters on their puppies before they go to their new homes, appears to no longer do it. Why do you think that might be? Could it possibly be that the new information about the benefits of allowing a dog - especially a giant breed dog, to fully develop before neutering has influenced their policies? You know, like, new information presents itself, you look at it, digest it, and if needed alter your stance?
> C) I linked the guy's website which was very easy to find. What's your point?
> 
> -posted by Ouesi


It is not exactly new information. When I started working at a vets and doing my training in the early 70s the policy was to wait till a dog was about 18 months and mature before considering castration and to wait till after the first season to spay a bitch. This 6 month stuff is very modern!


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> i'm disgusted with this assumption that of COURSE, if i quote *one part* of the entire website, i absolutely MUST agree with every word written on it - particularly as i'd never seen that website before in my life, & came across it today while looking for something else.
> .
> Now, as i'm the only person replying to multiple other people who are not merely disagreeing with the facts i've posted from multiple sources, many of them medical / veterinary, but now on top of a group of ppl chewing me out, i have @elmthesofties implying that i'm one of those 'ard-handed ar$ewipes who jerk dogs about with a double-handed grip on the leash, use prong & choke collars, shock them into abject appeasement or outright learned helplessness, & throttle disobedient dogs by stringing them up off the ground...


Oh, add "victimization" to the list of pseudoscience techniques.

Nothing in elmofthesofties's post suggested you agreed with pack leader theories, and most certainly nothing anywhere on this thread has suggested you use prong, choke, and shock collars - where did that even come from?! Elm was simply pointing out that someone who promotes pack leader theories in order to support pediatric spay neuter might not be as up to date as they think.

So, let's recap. So far you've gone off on @evel-lin about restraining young animals. Said you never said they have to be restrained (you did).
Then you go off on @SpicyBulldog saying he has a stoic breed (he never mentioned the breed). 
Repeatedly claimed pediatric desex is becoming the standard for breeders (it's not), then took issue with @StormyThai claiming you never said standard (you did). 
Let's see, you've also chided several members repeatedly for not reading your posts and links properly, bitched about the search function on PF and now not only are you the victim of character assassination (you're not), but you claim people on this thread are disagreeing with FACTS?! Good grief. 
Playing chess with a pigeon anyone? *sigh*


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh I do like that phrase @ouesi & it does seem to be particularly relevant to this thread.
Having just read the posts here it is actually quite amusing how many people seem to be on an ignore list ...... maybe just for having a difference of opinion & being able to argue their points in a balanced , sensible & clear manner


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

Threads like this are the reason I don't have an ignore list, it's bloody brilliant!! :Hilarious


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2017)

Blitz said:


> It is not exactly new information. When I started working at a vets and doing my training in the early 70s the policy was to wait till a dog was about 18 months and mature before considering castration and to wait till after the first season to spay a bitch. This 6 month stuff is very modern!


Yes, I meant new information for that particular breeder. Granted I don't know what their reasoning was.

But yes, it's not new information. People have known forever (certainly in the horse world) that early castration affects growth.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> 
> *WON'T MY MALE PET BE HEALTHIER IF I ALLOW HIM TO "MATURE" BEFORE NEUTERING HIM?*
> _No. There are no health benefits in allowing a male dog to reach sexual maturity before neutering. And waiting can result in undesirable behaviors that can sometime be irreversible. __Sexually mature male dogs and cats typically urine mark their territory. Once this behavior becomes routine for the animal, it can sometimes be impossible to break, even if the animal is then neutered._
> ...


_There are no health benefits in allowing a male dog to reach sexual maturity before neutering. Apart from these, "minor issues" .

Your dog's reproductive hormones help his bones and joints develop properly. If you remove those hormones too early, they don't have enough time to complete their valuable work._

*Early neutering causes the leg bones to grow unevenly.* This leaves your dog more vulnerable to hip dysplasia and torn ligaments.
*Early neutering makes a dog four times as likely to get bone cancer,* a deadly cancer that mostly occurs in large and giant dogs.
_http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/health/articles/neutering-male-dog.html_

Also why do you think you should neuter a dog because of behavioural issues like marking it´s territory? Since when that has become an issue? Do you really expect a dog behave like a human and forget all about his most natural behaviour? That is both mad and cruel IMO. Also aggressive behaviour has nothing to do with neutering, did you know that in most cases there is a medical reason for a dog to behave aggressively (= the dog is in pain). So neutering a dog too early could actually cause aggressive behavior, as the dog wouldn´t develope properly.

Please, don´t promote these dangerous practises, as it may actually cause serious problems. And I am not totally against neutering, it can be useful as long as it is done responsibly.

This conversation is starting to remind me of our first introduction thread in PF, where you told us that our breed should be forbidden, that we are irresponsible dog owners and that you are the expert of Caucasians/Sarplaninacs and all molosser breeds as well. I remember going through every single link and statement you posted, and found out that they were either wrong or you misunderstood them. It went on for weeks, until there were no more new links about C/O and Sarplaninacs. This time, please, do yourself and your cause a favour and simply say that sometimes neutering can be beneficial, but sometimes it can be harmful.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

MrsZee said:


> _There are no health benefits in allowing a male dog to reach sexual maturity before neutering. Apart from these, "minor issues" .
> 
> Your dog's reproductive hormones help his bones and joints develop properly. If you remove those hormones too early, they don't have enough time to complete their valuable work._
> 
> ...


It doesn't surprise me there was little understanding about your own breed, these posts here show..
Evidence in the US shows ridiculously early neutering has helped rescues...but in L4L head it has...a good scholar should always see both sides of the arguments, but apparently with little understanding what references she posts...and a blatant lack of listening or changing her ideals to fit with what she thinks we should think, which constantly changes is ridiculous.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2017)

At this point I'm really not even sure what L4L's agenda is on this thread (and all the others where she brings up early neutering).

I will say the obvious. That in any conversation about neutering, you have to take in to account several factors, including if the dog is owned or not. There is not one, single, correct answer for all dogs.

This is from the JAVMA in 2013. The author does a great job presenting the pros and cons of neutering and early neutering. It is an excellent, unbiased, fact-based article. 
From the article, and from a very pro-spay/neuter veterinarian:
_"Given the amount of knowledge on the health effects of spaying and castrating, Dr. Bushby believes the decision to neuter a cat or dog should be based, in part, on the animal's ownership status. "My position on shelter animals is there is no reason to change anything. We should still be promoting spay-neuter, and we should still be promoting early-age spay-neuter because of the population dynamics involved," he said.

Before neutering an owned animal, a veterinarian should take into account the pet's breed and its genetic predisposition to particular diseases, Dr. Bushby said. "When you're talking about the individual owned animal, if you're dealing with a breed that is known to be predisposed to osteosarcoma, then you probably need to have that sit-down conversation with the owner *so the owner can make a more informed decision*," he suggested."_

I highlighted the last part because this is what is missing from the apparent agenda of this thread. In order for owners to make an informed decision, we have to present all the information. Not just what suits our personal agenda. It borders on unethical to leave out important information about the cons of neutering when talking to an owner about getting their dog neutered.


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## evel-lin (Jul 1, 2010)

ouesi said:


> At this point I'm really not even sure what L4L's agenda is on this thread (and all the others where she brings up early neutering).
> 
> I will say the obvious. That in any conversation about neutering, you have to take in to account several factors, including if the dog is owned or not. There is not one, single, correct answer for all dogs.
> 
> ...


Yes, this is what's important (highlighted in purple as I know @ouesi loves it so much


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2017)

evel-lin said:


> Yes, this is what's important (highlighted in purple as I know @ouesi loves it so much


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MrsZee said:


> ..Blah..blah..blah..blah.............Last edited by LeashedForLife


*DO YOU HONESTLY THINK I GIVE A RODENT'S RECTUM WHAT YOU THINK?*


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Then you go off on @SpicyBulldog saying he has a stoic breed (he never mentioned the breed).
> Repeatedly claimed pediatric desex is becoming the standard for breeders (it's not), then took issue with @StormyThai claiming you never said standard (you did).


Even so it's not really a relevant point to health concerns, which is the point they are missing. It's great to have less worry about bleeding or complications or a so called quicker recovery but that is another topic completely. It ignores the negative health implications of early S/N. I think having growth issues and health problems is a bigger concern than being "right back to normal".


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> _There are no health benefits in allowing a male dog to reach sexual maturity before neutering. Apart from these, "minor issues" .
> 
> Your dog's reproductive hormones help his bones and joints develop properly. If you remove those hormones too early, they don't have enough time to complete their valuable work._
> 
> ...


This doesn't surprise me at all with their post on Cane Corso. Believing certain breeds are terrible,uncontrollable demon dogs....really.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

SpicyBulldog said:


> This doesn't surprise me at all with their post on Cane Corso. Believing certain breeds are terrible,uncontrollable demon dogs....really.


Don't forget the Ludacris reasoning behind them being demon dogs...you know they can't help children in school to read...not all dogs can, here in the UK some dogs fail to be PAT dogs, and guide dogs but that doesn't make them demon dogs!

Some people have a stereotypical fear of akitas and don't see them as pet dogs...but L4L owned one of those...certain dogs I do understand aren't for the typical average owner, but to be highly critically of people like Zaros and Mrs Zee who have a great set up for their dogs...well that's just wrong.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> Don't forget the Ludacris reasoning behind them being demon dogs...you know they can't help children in school to read...not all dogs can, here in the UK some dogs fail to be PAT dogs, and guide dogs but that doesn't make them demon dogs!
> 
> Some people have a stereotypical fear of akitas and don't see them as pet dogs...but L4L owned one of those...certain dogs I do understand aren't for the typical average owner,* but to be highly critical of people like Zaros and Mrs Zee who have a great set up for their dogs...well that's just wrong*.


There's room enough for two...and still more. 

Trouble is MrsZee has put her foot down. 

Now that's just wrong too. :Meh

The one key ingredient to keeping these dogs happy and contented is space. Lots of it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MrsZee said,
*...
Early neutering causes the leg bones to grow unevenly.* This leaves your dog more vulnerable to hip dysplasia and torn ligaments.
...
______________________
.
.
MrsZee,
pre-pubertal desex [S/N before 6-MO] does not cause "uneven growth" of the dog's leg bones. The long bones of *intact **male** dogs *stop lengthening at around 5-MO, when the initial surge of androgens in the lead-up to puberty shut-down the cartilaginous growth plate, calcifying it permanently.
I will be happy to append links that specifically address this allegation, if U wish?...
.
In pups whose testes are removed, the expected androgen surge does not occur - the growth plate remains active a bit longer, but growth is slower. *Growth is not "uneven" because all 4 legs continue to grow*; it has also been suggested by some specialists that the slower growth, producing as it does denser bone, may be advantageous, but so far as i know, no one has yet funded a research study to confirm this - it remains merely a hunch.
.
For FEMALE dogs, long-bone growth has different starts & stops; the "androgen surge" never happens, so they don't use that mechanism.
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Acquired urinary incontinence in F dogs post-spay:
.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1748-5827.1998.tb03709.x/abstract
.
.
QUOTE,
_"*Abstract*_
_A five-year cohort study was conducted on bitches chosen by a sample of 233 randomly selected practising veterinary surgeons in the UK, to estimate the incidence of acquired urinary incontinence (AUI) in neutered and entire animals, and to investigate possible risk factors associated with neutering practices.

Information was collected using questionnaires, & data on 809 bitches, of which 22 developed AUI, were obtained. The estimated incidence rates in neutered vs entire animals were 0·0174 and 0·0022 per animal-year, respectively (95% confidence intervals: 0·0110, 0·0275 and 0·0009, 0·0058, respectively). 
The relative risk, neutered vs entire, was 7·8 (95% confidence interval: 2·6, 31·5). 
The attributable proportion exposed & population attributable proportion were 87·1 % and 63·1 % (95 % confidence intervals: 61·9 %, 95·6 %, and 28·3 %, 88·5 %, respectively).

An increased risk, significant at the conventional 5 % level, was not demonstrated in animals neutered before, vs after, first heat (relative risk: 3·9, 95 % confidence interval: 0·8, 10·4), although the result was significant at the 10 % level.
Removal of the cervix was not shown to be a risk factor in neutered dogs."
.
.
._


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Bone growth is uneven, not legs. In a none sciency way, some bones stop at 8 months for example, it will be all of those particular bones in all 4 legs, some however stop at 12-14 months. Early neuter causes the 14 month bones to continue growing beyond 14 months, so there will be an imbalance in relation to each other, i.e. The leg bone connected to the knee bone, the knee bone connected to the thigh bone, dem bones. So the thigh bone may have stopped growing, but the lower leg bones grow beyond what they should and affect the angles. That the bones grow longer, though less dense still means they may be heavier than they should be in relation. Prepubescent neuter of dogs has been suspected in a greater occurrence of cruciate ligament rupture.

It has also been demonstrated that early neuter causes thinner, less dense bones, not thicker bones, also narrower chests and narrower heads in dogs. In horses early gelding causes taller horses that are also less bulky. Stallions develop more outwards and less upwards than geldings.

There is no reason to prefer prepubescent neuter of dogs. I can agree that rescues may feel it necessary to neuter early, but I think that insisting that it's better for the dogs is misleading. There is no proof of that, but there is plenty to the contrary. If someone wants their very young pup spayed or neutered very early that is up to them, but I think you're fighting a lost cause trying to persuade the rest of us. For every link there is a counter link and for every interpretation of what is read there, there is a contrary interpretation. The huge majority of research and links demonstrate that very early neuter of dogs may be in the human's interest, but it is rarely in the dogs'.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> MrsZee,
> pre-pubertal desex [S/N before 6-MO] does not cause...........................
> .


Giants! Giants! For phuq sake! Cutting the balls off a giant before six months of age is not just lunacy but also subjecting the poor animal to the likelihood of an early death sentence, considering many Giant breeds take up to four years to mature. 
Your continual habit of asserting what you think you know over what others do know by research experience, and profession, is not just frustrating but wholly phuqin dangerous.
If, for example, we had done as many people appear to do via Internet pet forums, and asked for advice regarding all future aspects of our new pup and foolishly trusted and adhered to yours, Oscar would now be dead.
That would have been a direct result of our stupidity and /or naivety and your complete and utter ignorance.
That is not our opinion, that is the conclusion of a professional Finnish veterinarian surgeon who, incidentally studied and learned his trade in America, perfected it back home and saved Oscar's life TWICE!

I know you cannot read my posts, but others certainly can, and if it only serves to make one person sit up and take notice, that's one dog that hasn't gone to the knackers yard before its time.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
The author of this paper did her original research in 1993, for 2 organizations in the UK - Feline Advisory Bureau (FAB) & Cats Protection League (CPL).
She has since updated it, & it includes a reference bibliography.
.
http://messybeast.com/earlyneuter2.htm
.
QUOTE, emphasis added in *bold -*

_"In both the USA and UK, shelter workers often feel they home kittens only to see the offspring of those kittens brought into to the shelter a few months later because people failed to abide by neutering agreements. Owners may even insist the shelter takes the kittens because the mother had been obtained from that shelter. 
Occasionally, shelters unknowingly adopted out apparently pre-pubescent cats that were in the early stages of pregnancy. Some females were already pregnant when presented for spaying, & some owners and vets are unwilling to abort the kittens. Lowering the neutering age would prevent these scenarios.

Six telephone surveys in the USA found an average of 85% of owned cats were neutered, but *20% of the owners had allowed female cats to produce 1 or more litters before spaying* (Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals surveys, conducted by the Dorr Research Corporation of Boston).

In the USA, the National Council on Pet Population Study and Policy (NCPPSP) was created in 1993. It includes various veterinary and non-veterinary organizations (including the Cat Fanciers Association). The NCPPSP carried out epidemiological studies into pet overpopulation:

1. The National Household Survey B to characterize the population of dog and cat owners and the acquisition, ownership, and disposition (disposal) of these pets
2. The Regional Shelter Survey B to characterize the dogs and cats entering shelters, the population of people relinquishing them, and the reasons for relinquishment
3. The Shelter Statistics Study B, which is ongoing, to update a list of all shelters and pounds in the USA and collect statistics of the number of animals entering these facilities and their disposition

Greater purchase price of the pet was associated with decreased risk of relinquishment. 
The majority of relinquished cats in the USA were between 5 months and 3 years of age and 35% had been owned for less than a year.

Survey results from 1100 shelters in 1994, and 1041 in 1995, showed that approximately 64% of the animals taken to a shelter were destroyed, 10% were reclaimed by the original owner, & 24% were adopted. This covered 4.1 million cats and dogs in 1994, & 3.7 million in 1995, but this accounts for only *one fifth to one quarter of shelters in the USA.*
In the UK, euthanasia rates are less due to the country's no-kill philosophy.
...
Early spay/neuter has been performed on 2 - 3 month old pets prior to the 1950s in the USA. Early sterilisation is normal in farm livestock (W Marvin Mackie, DVM, Animal Birth Control, San Pedro, California). 
In the UK, castration of male kittens under 6 months was common *until the time anaesthesia became compulsory, rather than advisory*. The limitations of available anaesthetics meant many vets felt it safer to wait until the cats were adult.

In the UK, one vet reported having practised early neutering since 1971 with no detrimental effects. Another neutered over 600 kittens aged between 8 and 20 weeks in 1988 - 89, & again reported no adverse effects.
During the 1990s, when I first looked into this topic to present it to the FAB and CPL, veterinary associations in the UK appeared unwilling to accept information from early neutering studies performed in the US. One veterinarian told me that "kittens should only undergo major operations (he considered neutering to be a major operation) in life or death situations".

In 1987, Leo L Lieberman, DVM presented his study "A Case for Neutering Pups and Kittens at Two Months of Age", based on information from the few US vets & shelters that routinely neutered pups & kittens aged 3 to 5 months & at 8 to 12 weeks. This was negatively received at the time. as the conventional wisdom was neuter at or after 6 months. Some even considered it inhumane or barbaric.

Early neutering, as part of neuter-before-adoption, is becoming the norm in the US. The American Veterinary Medical Association in its "Position on Early-Age (Prepubertal) Spay/ Neuter of Dogs and Cats", approved by its Executive Board in April, 1999, supported neutering between 8 to 16 weeks old to help reduce the number of unwanted cats and dogs. As with all procedures, the surgery date would depend on the animal's physical condition.

In Britain, while there are still reservations about early neutering, vets are become more open-minded about neutering kittens at 8 - 12 weeks old, particularly if the kittens are feral and being returned to their colony.

Where did the mythical 6 month mark for spaying and castration come from? 
It was partly based on the older barbiturate anaesthetics being less safe than modern anaesthetics; a barrier to performing any kind of surgery on kittens or immature cats. In that case, surely cats should have been assessed for anaesthesia based on their size and weight?
The magical date of 6 months seems to have come from dogs. It was believed bitches should have one season before spaying, & this fallacy may have been extended to cats. With few feline specialist vets, cats were treated as though they were small dogs.

Modern anaesthetic drugs, & better training of veterinary staff, have made surgery much safer for very young or very old animals. Any surgical procedure, on an animal of any age or size, carries a degree of risk. It is unsafe to neuter sickly kittens because of infection / stress. There will always be a few cats, of any age, at high risk from surgery, but they are outnumbered by current euthanasia rates due to feline overpopulation.
The vet that told me that kittens should only undergo surgery in life or death situations had lost sight of the fact that *overpopulation & rates of euthanasia of healthy cats has made this a life or death situation, particularly for young ferals.*

In an article in DVM Magazine, Dr. Johnny Hoskins, DVM, PhD, ACVIM, author of Veterinary Pediatrics, addressed the legitimate list of concerns. He found no evidence in the literature to support claims that early-age sterilization increased risk. He stated that the advantages far out-weighed the risks."
.
.
._


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Just as a factual tidbit, there are over 4,700 shelters in the USA.
2.7 million euthanasias per year is too many - IMO.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
for more statistics on pet-overpopn in the USA, please see 
https://www.aspca.org/animal-homelessness/shelter-intake-and-surrender/pet-statistics
.
The entire page is stats - homeless pet numbers, euths, where ppl acquire pets, why they relinquish or abandon them, etc.
.
.
.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

Early neuter doubles risk of hip dysplasia

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/new-study-neuter-risk-hip-dysplasia-dogs/


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
Article Citation:
C. Victor Spain, Janet M. Scarlett, & Siobhan M. Cully (_2002_) 
When to Neuter Dogs & Cats: A Survey of New York State Veterinarians' Practices & Beliefs. 
Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association; September/October 2002 iss.; Vol. 38, No. 5; pp. 482 - 488.

*doi:* http://dx.doi.org/10.5326/0380482

Theriogenology
*When to Neuter Dogs & Cats: A Survey of New York State Veterinarians' Practices & Beliefs*
C. Victor Spain, DVM, Janet M. Scarlett, DVM, PhD, & Siobhan M. Cully

Practicing veterinarians in small-animal or mixed-animal practice in New York state were surveyed about their beliefs & practices regarding the age at which dogs & cats should be neutered, & their attitudes toward early neutering (at 4 months of age or younger).
The majority of veterinarians routinely recommended neutering for all client animals (70.6%), & supported the routine neutering of shelter animals before adoption (90.3%).

More veterinarians in this study reported at least one perceived benefit (91.3%) for early neutering than reported at least one perceived risk (84.4%). 
Veterinarians with early-neutering experience were less-likely to believe that the procedure was associated with one or more risks.

Copyright 2002, The American Animal Hospital Association
.
.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

This study on neutering and immune disorders
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5146839/


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## SpicyBulldog (Jun 30, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> This study on neutering and immune disorders
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5146839/


This is the one I was talking about. The risk are real.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SpicyBulldog said,

_Early neuter doubles risk of hip dysplasia_
__________________________
.
.
...And other studies found that HD in dogs desexed before 6-MO was less severe, often easily managed by keeping the dog lean, or with some pain medication - surgery was often not necessary. [see the reference bibliography on "Rebuttal to k9 Athlete / early neuter" for the citation.]
.
U do not say what specific risk it spozedly "doubles" - 2 x 0.002% is, yes, doubled, but it's still extremely small.
With over *40% of U-S dogs obese*, IMO that's far-more of a threat to their long-term joint health than at what age they're desexed.
.
Plus, 40% of a dog's potential for HD is genetic - but how many buyers search for breeders who provide proof that sire & dam were scored?
[Let alone use something better than OFA's extreme extension single-pose.]
.
*60% *of a pup's risk of HD is environment & development - how many buyers raise their pups on slick flooring with poor traction, because it's _*"easy to clean"*_?
How many overfeed their pup, so they can brag on her or his weight... as if fat pups are automatically healthy pups? :Meh I've seen both for 40-years, now.
.
.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Less severe HD in a dog that wouldn't suffer HD at all is still worse. If leaving the dog a little longer would reduce the risk, then it's worth it imo. 

I would say you've pretty much proven that the actual procedure is no more risky in very young pups, but tbh that seems about it. Rescues and the careless are possibly better off taking their dogs in earlier, but the rest of us can take potential long term effects and risks into consideration and not just about neutering them, and imo as responsible pet owners, we should be able to. 

The thread is quite informative in that respect I think.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> *60% *of a pup's risk of HD is environment & development


You still haven't substantiated where that 60% comes from.


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## Guest (May 12, 2017)

:Arghh:Banghead:Arghh:Banghead:Arghh:Banghead:Arghh:Banghead:Arghh:Banghead

I thought this thread had died a merciful death!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Burrowzig said,

_You still haven't substantiated where that 60% [of the risk of hip-dysplasia, being *environmental *or *developmental*] *comes from*._
______________________
.
.
Ziggy, don't be obtuse, please.  
I posted THE * STUDY that specific ratio came from, years ago, right here on PF-uk.
Researchers concluded that *40% of the risk of HD *is genetic; that means *over one-half *depends on how the pup is reared.
.
Both parents can be screened & score excellent, but the buyer of their pup can wreck their dog's hips by overfeeding, overloading, substrates with poor traction [slips, falls, etc], forced exercise, & so on.
.
I'm sure U can think of other added risks? 
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2004.224.380
*Long-term risks and benefits of early-age gonadectomy in dogs*
C. Victor Spain, DVM, PhD; Janet M.Scarlett, DVM, PhD; Katherine A. Houpt, VMD, PhD, DACVB
.
.
Quote:
_*Conclusions and Clinical Relevance - *_
_Because early-age gonadectomy appears to offer more benefits than risks for male dogs, animal shelters can safely gonadectomize male dogs at a young age, & veterinary practitioners should consider recommending routine gonadectomy for client-owned male dogs before the traditional age of 6 to 8 months._
_For female dogs, however, increased risk of urinary incontinence suggests that delaying gonadectomy until at least 3 months of age may be beneficial. _
_( J Am Vet Med Assoc 2004; iss 224: pgs 380 - 387)_
.
.
OTOH - 
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/11787155
Quote,
.
*Abstract*
_It is still controversial whether a bitch should be spayed before or after the first oestrus. It would be desirable to spay bitches at an age that would minimize the side effects of neutering. With regard to the risk of mammary tumours, early spaying must be recommended because the incidence of tumours is reduced considerably. _

_The aim of the present study was to determine whether *early spaying* also reduces the risk of urinary incontinence. The owners of 206 bitches, spayed before their first oestrus & for at least 3 years, were questioned on the occurrence of urinary incontinence as a result of spaying. _
_At the time of the enquiry, the average age of the bitches was 6.5 years, & the *average age at the time of spay was 7.1 months*. _
_Urinary incontinence after spaying occurred in 9.7% of bitches. This incidence is approximately *half that of spaying after the first oestrus.* _

_Urinary incontinence affected 12.5% of females of large body weight (> 20 kg body weight) & 5.1% of females of small body weight (< 20 kg body weight)._
_The surgical procedure (OE vs OHE) had no influence on incidence, or on the period between spaying & development of incontinence. _
_Urinary incontinence occurred on average at 2 years & 10 months post-spay, & occurred daily, while animals were awake or during sleep. However, compared with late spaying the clinical signs of urinary incontinence were more distinct after early spaying._
.
.
Another German study found that F pups spayed before 12-WO were less-likely to have urinary incontinence than F pups spayed at the traditional 6-MO, pubertal age.
.
Having worked with literally hundreds of pediatric-desex pups, M & F, during the 12-years i lived in VA, i saw vanishingly few [*ETA: *F dogs of any age, spayed before 14-WO] who had any problems with urinary incontinence THAT WERE NOT* the temporary effect of a U.T.I.*
*.*
*.*
*.*


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## Guest (May 12, 2017)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2004.224.380
> *Long-term risks and benefits of early-age gonadectomy in dogs*
> C. Victor Spain, DVM, PhD; Janet M.Scarlett, DVM, PhD; Katherine A. Houpt, VMD, PhD, DACVB
> ...


Do you read the studies you post?
From your link above:
"Among male and female dogs with early-age gonadectomy, *hip dysplasia,* noise phobias, and sexual behaviors were *increased*," (Emphasis mine.)

There is a lot of information out there about the effects of neutering. Why not just present the information and let owners decide for themselves what is the best risk/benefit for their individual situation. 
I don't know why this has to be so contentious!


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

The Spain papers are some of the most definitive in this subject.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*Ceiling Kitty* said,

_The Spain papers are some of the most definitive in this subject._
_________________________
.
.
...Except that they're not "pediatric desex" - as average age at time of spay was 7.1-mos, unfortunately.
They were pre-estrous, but not done between 8-WO & 12-WO, which strictly speaking, is pediatric. 
.
The authors in that study refer to "early", but that's only in the sense of "before 1st-estrus".
.
.
.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Burrowzig said,
> 
> _You still haven't substantiated where that 60% [of the risk of hip-dysplasia, being *environmental *or *developmental*] *comes from*._
> ______________________
> ...


I'm not being obtuse. You've posted extracts from more than one study - which one is it? 
Not really convinced anyway. The hypothesis fails to explain the disparity in HD incidence between breeds with conformation so similar it's difficult to tell them apart by eye - thinking of Border Collies (HD fairly common) and Welsh Sheepdogs (HD very rare). The rearing of working dogs from the 2 breeds should be so similar that the environmental causes could be dismissed.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Burrowzig said,

_I'm not being obtuse. You've posted extracts from more than one study - which one is it? _
...
_____________________
.
.
Ermm. I joined PF-uk in 2009. :Meh Would U want to guesstimate how many links to research studies, from peer-reviewed journals, i've posted, to date?
.
The specific study i just referred to [60% env / develop, 40% genes, total 100% of influence re risk of hip-dysplasia in any individual dog] *is * not * on * this * thread.*
It's somewhere in the many, many prior threads where HD / heredity / pre-breeding needed screens, etc, have been discussed. 
.
I'm sure that brilliant search-box will find it easily. 
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I went to Google Scholar & searched "hip dysplasia + dog + genetic influence".  Here's page 1:
.
*[PDF] Effects of limited food consumption on the incidence of hip dysplasia in growing dogs*
RD Kealy, SE Olsson, KL Monti, DF Lawler… - JOURNAL-AMERICAN …, 1992 - icbblog.org
*...* INTAKE *Dysplastic* N = 7 Nondysplastic N = 18 l l Borderline N =1 *Dysplastic* N = 5 *...* and
environmental factors,28 it is suggested that the conformation of the *dog* be the *...* one hand, breeders
and veterinarians have been at- tempting to eliminate *hip* *dysplasia* *genetically* by mass *...*
Cited by 182 Related articles All 5 versions Cite Save

*Hip dysplasia in dogs*
W Brass - Journal of small animal practice, 1989 - Wiley Online Library
*...* Americuri Kennel Gazette 52, 25-26 SCHNELLE, GB (1954) Congenital *dysplasia* of the *hip*
(canine *...* LVST, G., GEARY, J. c. & SHEFFEY, €3. E. (1973) Development of *Hip* *...* Sections in the
book include +istory, *problems* and current status; characterisation of growth; variability *...*
Cited by 76 Related articles All 3 versions Cite Save

*Estimates of genetic parameters for hip and elbow dysplasia in Finnish Rottweilers.*
K Mäki, AE Liinamo, M Ojala - Journal of animal science, 2000 - dl.sciencesocieties.org
*...* have at least some degree of arthritis in their joints even without being actually *dysplastic*. *...* The
*effect* of the litter was quite small for both *dysplasias* (Table 6). The litter *...* Due to the positive *genetic*
correlation, selection against *hip* *dysplasia* also decreases the prevalence of *...*
Cited by 79 Related articles All 6 versions Cite Save

[PDF] nih.gov
*The pathogenesis and diagnosis of canine hip dysplasia: a review.*
CL Fries, AM Remedios - The Canadian Veterinary Journal, 1995 - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
*...* access showed rapid growth and weight gain that cor- related with the severity of *hip* *dysplasia*
at 2 y *...* of what these *dogs* ate in 15 min significantly reduced body weight, decreased *hip* laxity,
and reduced by 38% the incidenceof animals classified as *dysplastic* according to *...*
Cited by 86 Related articles All 6 versions Cite Save


K Chase, DF Lawler, FR Adler… - … of Medical *Genetics *…, 2004 - Wiley Online Library
*...* high proportion of larger *dogs* (>20 kg) are afflicted with the disorder, canine *hip* *dysplasia* may
serve *...* FH2524 or lack of laxity in the left allow the detection of left *hip* variation associated *...* Teaching
a new *dog* old tricks: Identifying quantitative trait loci [in *dogs*] using lessons from *...*
Cited by 94 Related articles All 11 versions Cite Save

*Complex segregation analysis of canine hip dysplasia in German shepherd dogs*
V Janutta, H Hamann, O Distl - Journal of Heredity, 2006 - Am *Genetic *Assoc
*...* which ranges from CHD A, for normal hips, to CHD E, for severely *dysplastic* *hip* joints *...* settings
have been shown to reduce the phenotypical incidence of canine *hip* *dysplasia* (Kealy et *...* CHD
status, as was the common strategy in the German Shepherd *Dog* Breeding Association *...*
Cited by 49 Related articles All 14 versions Cite Save

[PDF] icbblog.org
*Diagnosis, genetic control and preventive management of canine hip dysplasia: a review*
MMD Ginja, AM Silvestre, JM Gonzalo-Orden… - The Veterinary …, 2010 - Elsevier
*...* week-old female Estrela mountain *dog* puppy, which later developed severe *hip* *dysplasia*,
demonstrating obvious *...* and uses five grades (one normal, one borderline and three *dysplastic*)
(Ginja et *...* Dorsolateral ultrasonographic image of the left *hip* joint of an 8-week-old Estrela *...*
Cited by 61 Related articles All 13 versions Cite Save

*An indication of major genes affecting hip and elbow dysplasia in four Finnish dog populations*
K Mäki, LLG Janss, AF Groen, AE Liinamo, M Ojala - Heredity, 2004 - nature.com
*...* growth. Each of these *dysplasias* can cause arthritis and/or severely deformed joints,
disabling the *dog*. *...* process. Major *genes* that may affect *hip* and elbow *dysplasia*
in these *dog* populations would repay further study. The *...*
Cited by 63 Related articles All 8 versions Cite Save

*Breeding values and genetic trend for hip dysplasia in the Norwegian Golden Retriever population*
F Lingaas, G Klemetsdal - … of Animal Breeding and *Genetics*, 1990 - Wiley Online Library
*...* Breeding values for *hip* *dysplasia* should, however, routineously be estimated and
presented for *dog* owners and breeders. In this way, *dog* owners can be aware of the
differences between *dogs*, and thereby *influence* on the selection. *...*
Cited by 38 Related articles All 3 versions Cite Save

*Breed susceptibility for developmental orthopedic diseases in dogs*
E LaFond, GJ Breur, CC Austin - Journal of the American …, 2002 - Am Animal Hosp Assoc
*...* Developmental and congenital *problems* of the ante-brachium and adjacent joints. *...* *Genetics* of
canine *hip* *dysplasia*.J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997;210:1474-1479 *...* *Effect* of dam and sire qualitative
*hip* conformation scores on progeny *hip* conformation.J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000;217 *...*
Cited by 174 Related articles All 7 versions Cite Save

.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Similar search, "environmental influence" -
.
*Complex segregation analysis of canine hip dysplasia in German shepherd dogs*
V Janutta, H Hamann, O Distl - Journal of Heredity, 2006 - Am Genetic Assoc
*...* from CHD A, for normal hips, to CHD E, for severely *dysplastic* *hip* joints. *...* *environmental* settings
have been shown to reduce the phenotypical incidence of *canine* *hip* *dysplasia* (Kealy et al. *...* status,
as was the common strategy in the German Shepherd *Dog* Breeding Association *...*
Cited by 49 Related articles All 14 versions Cite Save

*Breed susceptibility for developmental orthopedic diseases in dogs*
E LaFond, GJ Breur, CC Austin - Journal of the American …, 2002 - Am Animal Hosp Assoc
*...* Elbow incongruity and developmental elbow diseases in the *dog*: part IJ Am Anim *...* Analysis of
*environmental* and genetic *influences* on the frequency of *hip* *dysplasia* in German *...* Epidemiologic
observations of *canine* elbow disease (emphasis on *dysplasia*).J Am Anim Hosp *...*
Cited by 174 Related articles All 7 versions Cite Save

*The pathogenesis and diagnosis of canine hip dysplasia: a review.*
CL Fries, AM Remedios - The Canadian Veterinary Journal, 1995 - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
*...* joints in an imma- ture *dog* are more lax than in a mature *dog* (29 *...* factors (5,8). Variations in
dietaryprotein and carbohydrate levels do not affect the development of *hip* *dysplasia* *...* There is
no difference in plasmaamino acid concentrations between normaland *dysplastic* *dogs* (36 *...*
Cited by 86 Related articles All 6 versions Cite Save

*Analysis of environmentally-conditioned and genetic influences on the frequency of hip joint dysplasia in German Shepherd dogs*
O Distl, W Grussler, J Schwarz… - Zentralblatt fur …, 1991 - europepmc.org
Abstract The importance of *environmental *and genetic *influences *on the frequency of *hip *
*dysplasia *was studied in 10,595 German shepherd *dogs*. Systematic effects were analysed 
using mixed linear and mixed nonlinear threshold models. Following effects were regarded 
Cited by 15 Related articles All 3 versions Cite Save More

*Estimates of genetic parameters for hip and elbow dysplasia in Finnish Rottweilers.*
K Mäki, AE Liinamo, M Ojala - Journal of animal science, 2000 - dl.sciencesocieties.org
*...* The estimate of her- itability for *hip* *dysplasia* in this study is, however, of the same magnitude
as in the PennHIP studies. Litter Effect. The effect of the litter was quite small for both *dysplasias*
(Table 6). The litter effect accounted for 4% of the total variation in *hip* joints and 6 *...*
Cited by 79 Related articles All 6 versions Cite Save

*Hip dysplasia in dogs*
W Brass - Journal of small animal practice, 1989 - Wiley Online Library
*...* Hoeh- nheimer Kynolgische Diskussions-Tagung LAWSON, DD (1968) *Hip* *Dysplasia* in the
*Dog*. Veterinary Record 75, 655-656 HEDHAMMAR. *...* MW (1977) A Genetic Study of *Canine* *Hip*
*Dysplasia*. American Journal of Veterinary Research 38, 241-244 *Dysplasia* in *dogs*. *...*
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*Incidence, risk factors, and heritability estimates of hind limb lameness caused by hip dysplasia in a birth cohort of boxers*
MAE van Hagen, BJ Ducro, J Broek… - American journal of …, 2005 - Am Vet Med Assoc
*...* has been recognized as a constant fea- ture of CHD,28,29 appears to have a hereditary basis
in that the progeny of *dogs* without CHD had less laxity than did those from *dysplastic*
parents.29 *...* Hereditary bone and joint diseases in the *dog*. *...* 6. Brass W. *Hip* *dysplasia* in *dogs*. *...*
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*Evaluation of risk factors for degenerative joint disease associated with hip dysplasia in German Shepherd Dogs, Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, and …*
GK Smith, PD Mayhew, AS Kapatkin… - Journal of the …, 2001 - Am Vet Med Assoc
*...* Juvenile pubic sym- physiodesis on *dysplastic* puppies: 34 cases (abstr), in Proceedings *...* and
the development of a clinical stress-radi- ographic method for quantitating *hip* joint laxity in the
*dog*. *...* Effects of limited food consumption on the incidence of *hip* *dysplasia* in growing *dogs* *...*
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*Bayesian analysis of heritability of canine hip dysplasia in German Shepherd Dogs*
H Hamann, T Kirchhoff, O Distl - Journal of Animal Breeding …, 2003 - Wiley Online Library
*...* generally accepted that the coxofemoral joints can be classified as normal or *dysplastic* to various *...*
With the exception of the fixed factor of the sex of the *dog*, all fixed *...* Table 6. Estimates of variances
and covariances of random effects for *canine* *hip* *dysplasia* in German Shepherd *...*
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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> don't be obtuse.




Obtuse: Stupid, unintelligent. Lacking sharpness of intellect. Annoyingly or emotionally insensitive. Not quick to perceive nor careful in thought. Slow to understand....

There are times when I wonder if you're being deliberately obtuse.:Hilarious


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Zaros said:


> Obtuse: Stupid, unintelligent. Lacking sharpness of intellect. Annoyingly or emotionally insensitive. Not quick to perceive nor careful in thought. Slow to understand....
> 
> There are times when I wonder if you're being deliberately obtuse.:Hilarious


Was that in reference to Spanish studies...which don't fit her criteria so lets ignore them..or the fact she's not supporting what she says from google scholar but must think she is by linking the references?...


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

If you're talking about the Spain work, it's not Spanish but the lead author is called Spain! Sorry for any confusion.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

But even in the suoies that suggest the 'benefitts' outweigh the risks it seems that those 'benefits' are more for that of the owner rather than the dog..... maybe owners should be educated more & have more thought reagrding training rather than ineterferring with their dogs development simply for an easier life.

I was going to post some links but Ithink i am still on ignore so it would be pointless ....& even if I did L4L obviously has some odd campaign in promoting removal of dogs bits & bobs early regardless! :Arghh


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> Was that in reference to Spanish studies...which don't fit her criteria so lets ignore them..or the fact she's not supporting what she says from google scholar but must think she is by linking the references?...


Speaking imprecisely or to a certain extent, not exactly, but more or less.

Better pop you on ignore before you confuse me even more.



Cleo38 said:


> I was going to post some links but I think* I am *still* on ignore * so it would be pointless ....& even if I did L4L obviously has some odd campaign in promoting removal of dogs bits & bobs early regardless! :Arghh


Me too.:Smug

But doesn't it ever make you wonder the precise number of others this member actually has on their ignore list?

We could make a guessing game out of it and the one who's closest to the correct answer wins a new collar and leash. ￼
PetForums will just have to be the adjudicator because I'm sure they'll have that precise figure stored somewhere on their database.:Writing


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Ceiling Kitty said,

_If you're talking about *the Spain work*, it's not Spanish but the lead author is called Spain! *Sorry for any confusion.*_ 
___________________________________
.
.
No confusion on my part, CK.  That paper would be _'Spain, et al' - _so yes, i knew which U meant.
.
.
.
*lullabydream *said,

_'... in reference to *Spanish studies*... which *don't fit her criteria, *so let's ignore *them*...'
_____________________
.
A, it's not "them", LB - it's a single study, which i cited, & provided a link, if U'd like to read the abstract or fork out for the full copy.
B, What "criteria" would those be?  Seeing as i cited it, *and *quoted their conclusion, that's hardly _"ignoring"_.
.
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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> You still haven't substantiated where that 60% comes from.


You were asked this...you have yet to provide proof of this *on this thread*.
As you are the one that quoted the figure and you say you posted the article to prove the statement, the onus is on you to back up the claim.

Personally I think LFL would make a fab politician


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Zaros said:


> the precise number of others this member actually has on their ignore list


He/she promised me last year that I was on his/her ignore list as well...didn't realise it was such an exclusive club. There must only be about ten people who aren't on the list! I think Cousin Bubba is too. Do you spoze so?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Calvine said:


> He/she promised me last year that I was on his/her ignore list as well...didn't realise it was such an exclusive club. There must only be about ten people who aren't on the list! I think Cousin Bubba is too. Do you spoze so?


Im not!

Im not sure if i should be pleased or not.

Kinda feel like ive failed in some way.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*StormyThai* said,

_You were asked this...you have yet to provide proof of this *on this thread*.
As you are the one that quoted the figure and you say you posted the article to prove the statement, the onus is on you to back up the claim._

_Personally I think LFL *would make a fab politician*_ 
___________________________
.
.
Let me see if i grasp this correctly, Stormy:
ANYTHING THAT I FIND IN ANY STUDY, AT ANY TIME, i must be able to cite at any time i refer to it, in the future? - Is that the gist of Ur statement?
.
Do U require that of *every member* of PF-uk?
That no-one make any statement that they cannot cite a study to support? :Hilarious If so, i'm delighted! - let me know where that elusive study is, that supports the long-running belief among PF-uk *UK members*, that any shy, timid, or anxious male dog *will become much-worse *if he is neutered.
.
I await results with considerable anticipation. 
.
.
.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Calvine said:


> He/she promised me last year that I was on his/her ignore list as well...didn't realise it was such an exclusive club. *There must only be about ten people who aren't on the list! I think Cousin Bubba is too. Do you spoze so*?


Indubitably! In fact, in all probability, poor cuz Bubs has been treated rather like the queen's cousin, the late Katherine Bowes-Lyon...

Placed on ignore for decades.....


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

OK you win...I give up!
Give me a shout when you are willing to have an actual discussion, instead of throwing your toys around because people have asked you to back up a scientific statement with factual evidence.

In the mean time I will carry on reading any new research that comes my way...I may change my stance with up to date factual evidence in front of me...but it won't be changed by someone that instead of answering simple question they try to belittle and skirt around the issue!


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## Guest (May 13, 2017)

Nonnie said:


> Kinda feel like ive failed in some way.


You have :Happy

I think the ignore list is so extensive at this point she might as well just be having a conversation with herself LOL


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> You have :Happy
> 
> I think the ignore list is so extensive at this point she might as well just be having a conversation with herself LOL


I dunno if I'm impressed or worried that I have escaped the list so far


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## Guest (May 13, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> I dunno if I'm impressed or worried that I have escaped the list so far


 I wouldn't worry, you'll be on there soon enough


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

I don't think I'm on ignore but then her posting style, the link after link after link & that bloody Lilac text means I can't read enough to want to comment much.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I really think this has gone on for long enough. @leashedForLife has made her points about early spay/neutering and those who disagree have done so. I can see no need for further debate which is nothing but irrelevant comments.
Thread closed :Locktopic:Locktopic


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