# I intend to breed my Great Danes, but...



## SpWaMC

...one of the newer additions to my pack (a goofy, 12-week old girl named Elsa) has me a bit concerned because of her coat coloration. She's predominantly white.

I personally can't tell if she's simply a very white-factored piebald or a very white-factored Harlequin (and, therefore, Merle). Is there really any definitive way to figure this out without genetic testing?

The first picture shows her face (NOTE: She has brown eyes.)
The second picture shows her only solid mark.
The third picture shows one of her two or three small (perhaps, half an inch in diameter) areas where there is a tuft of black fur beneath her white fur.


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## Guest

Id say piebald but it would take genetic testing to be sure, which you should do anyway IMHO.

Danes should also have their hips, eyes, hearts and thyroid tested before being considered for breeding. Hips should be done after the dog is 24 months old, so you have plenty of time to figure out the color genetics of your 12 week old girl. 

May I ask why you want to breed your dogs? Do you have a purpose in mind? Something to bring to the breed?


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## SpWaMC

ouesi said:


> Id say piebald but it would take genetic testing to be sure, which you should do anyway IMHO.


I may as well, I've been doing my research on both Merle/Harlequin and Piebald patterns for some time now... but the information gleaned from genetic write-ups and such doesn't actually help you in any way when trying to tell the two apart in person. Especially considering that if you type in "Harlequin Great Dane" or "Piebald Great Dane" into google, you'll find everything from solid black to solid white listed under both.



ouesi said:


> Danes should also have their hips, eyes, hearts and thyroid tested before being considered for breeding. Hips should be done after the dog is 24 months old, so you have plenty of time to figure out the color genetics of your 12 week old girl.


Yep. The dog comes from healthy parents and is papered, so I'm optimistic about her health. The only reason I've got her is because her previous family, good friends of mine, picked her up and then one of them lost their jobs. They were going to hand her back over to the breeder, but I told them I'd take her so that at least they could still see her now and again. ::



ouesi said:


> May I ask why you want to breed your dogs? Do you have a purpose in mind? Something to bring to the breed?


I have a purpose in mind, yes, but it isn't one that breeders typically look favorably upon: the formulation of a new breed from four existing breeds.


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## Guest

Does the breeder know you have the pup and intend to breed her? You might want to check if the first owners had a contract with the breeder. 

Even if a pup comes from health tested parents (ideally from a long line of health tested ancestry), the responsible thing to do is to health test the actual dogs you intend to breed.

Creating a new breed means several breedings. Thats a lot of puppies to add to a pet population that is already at crisis proportions. I dont know that I could justify that...


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## SpWaMC

ouesi said:


> Does the breeder know you have the pup and intend to breed her? You might want to check if the first owners had a contract with the breeder.


They got her with full breeding rights, yes.



ouesi said:


> Even if a pup comes from health tested parents (ideally from a long line of health tested ancestry), the responsible thing to do is to health test the actual dogs you intend to breed.


Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I was curious, though, if there was any method of distinguishing between white-factored Harlequin (Merle) and white-factored Piebald.

Edit: As for the other thing you said, it's important to note the fact that it's not really a "pet population", as it's widely understood that the majority of strays in the U.S. are born without human knowledge or assistance. These are truly "wild dogs". The easiest way to not be a part of this problem is to ensure all the dogs you place in homes, as pets, are spayed and neutered -- which I would do.


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## dandogman

You should probably remove any pictures which feature a pinch collar in the background before you get abuse.


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## ClaireandDaisy

I am really hoping this is a School Holiday post.


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## newfiesmum

dandogman said:


> You should probably remove any pictures which feature a pinch collar in the background before you get abuse.


I wouldn't call it abuse, just advice. OP I hope you do not intend to use that instrument on your puppy, or any other dog for that matter.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab

Sorry but I'm afraid you are wrong on one count: a lot of the stray dogs were born because their owners decided on a whim to mate two 'cute' dogs and then sell the 'cute' puppies.

And irrespective of how they became strays, the end result is the same: the rescues and shelters are crammed, and healthy dogs are being killed on a regular basis purely through lack of available homes.

Now, taking all that into account, if you still wish to breed then of course that is your call. At least if you are going to hip score and heart and eye test BOTH dam and sire, you'll be doing more than many breeders.

As for creating a 'new breed' - would you mind my asking what the purpose of this is? Surely we have enough beautiful breeds? 

As a breeder, you cannot ever guarantee that none of your dogs will end up in rescue. It's simply not possible to give this guarantee. Potential owners can lie, can be good liars, or later they can sell the dog on or be embarrassed to admit they can't cope and end up placing the dog in rescue without telling you.

As for the prong collar - please tell me you don't use that to walk your Danes?


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## Wiz201

A new breed? You're just breeding a Great Dane at the end of the day despite the colour?


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## Guest

SpWaMC said:


> Edit: As for the other thing you said, it's important to note the fact that it's not really a "pet population", as it's widely understood that the majority of strays in the U.S. are born without human knowledge or assistance. These are truly "wild dogs". The easiest way to not be a part of this problem is to ensure all the dogs you place in homes, as pets, are spayed and neutered -- which I would do.


I kind of figured you were in the US. So am I 

Its important to note that the above is wholly untrue.

There IS a massive dog overpopulation crisis. In this county ALONE 12,000 dogs were turned in to the local shelter in the last year. Yes, my zeros are correct, twelve thousand. That is ONE shelter, in ONE small southern county (not even statewide). There are not 12,000 homes available for these dogs. That means euthanasia for the ones who dont find a home in 5 days (yep, 5 days is all they get).

Since youre in the US, I also know the very low probability that your piebald girl came from a good breeder. A reputable breeder generally doesnt sign off breeding rights until the dog reaches maturity and the breeder can assess the after he/she is fully developed. 
A reputable breeder doesnt just let their dog go to the friend of the first owner without their knowledge or consent, without thoroughly checking out the next home and making sure the puppy is the right match for that home too.
And no reputable dane breeder wants their line associated with deliberately creating mixed breeds. The dane world is teeny-tiny small in the US and word gets around. Is this an AKC registered dog? UKC?

Please spay your girl and enjoy her as a pet. We already have so many wonderful breeds of dog, surely you can find your needs in a dog met with all the other breeds and lines of those breeds out there. No need to create a new breed and all the additional puppies that would create in the process....


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## Lurcherlad

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I am really hoping this is a School Holiday post.


Hmm, me too 

Too many hints, for me


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## Tails and Trails

Lurcherlad said:


> Hmm, me too
> 
> Too many hints, for me


well, he does say in his third post he is from america, so not too sure what hints you are referring to there ???

ousie is on the right track, the way the guy writes his post he does sound like it is something he has given genuine thought to


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## Tails and Trails

ouesi said:


> I kind of figured you were in the US. So am I
> 
> Its important to note that the above is wholly untrue.
> 
> There IS a massive dog overpopulation crisis. In this county ALONE 12,000 dogs were turned in to the local shelter in the last year. Yes, my zeros are correct, twelve thousand. That is ONE shelter, in ONE small southern county (not even statewide). There are not 12,000 homes available for these dogs. That means euthanasia for the ones who dont find a home in 5 days (yep, 5 days is all they get).
> 
> Since youre in the US, I also know the very low probability that your piebald girl came from a good breeder. A reputable breeder generally doesnt sign off breeding rights until the dog reaches maturity and the breeder can assess the after he/she is fully developed.
> A reputable breeder doesnt just let their dog go to the friend of the first owner without their knowledge or consent, without thoroughly checking out the next home and making sure the puppy is the right match for that home too.
> And no reputable dane breeder wants their line associated with deliberately creating mixed breeds. The dane world is teeny-tiny small in the US and word gets around. Is this an AKC registered dog? UKC?
> 
> Please spay your girl and enjoy her as a pet. We already have so many wonderful breeds of dog, surely you can find your needs in a dog met with all the other breeds and lines of those breeds out there. No need to create a new breed and all the additional puppies that would create in the process....


Brilliant post

I dont know how anyone could _not_ take any notice of all of this


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## Guest

Just to add, it is not at all accurate that "the majority of strays in the U.S. are born without human knowledge or assistance. Not at all. 

The majority of dogs who end up in shelters come from dogs who were either intentionally bred or who were deliberately allowed to get pregnant by allowing intact dogs to wander, not be supervised, basically not kept from reproducing through ignorance or apathy.

The subsequent puppies are then pawned to the first person whos check cashes (or often simply given away), the new owners are not offered any support or guidance in how to raise and care for the new dog, and when the dog gets to be too much or in any way an inconvenience he/she is either dumped at a shelter or taken out to the country and dumped. That wild dog population comes from pet dogs. Between predation, motor vehicle injuries, disease, exposure, starvation, etc., wild/feral dogs dont tend to live long enough to sustain a real population. Some do breed, but the majority of the population is sustained by dogs being dumped or allowed to wander.


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## Rafa

SpWaMC said:


> They got her with full breeding rights, yes.
> 
> Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I was curious, though, if there was any method of distinguishing between white-factored Harlequin (Merle) and white-factored Piebald.
> 
> Edit: As for the other thing you said, it's important to note the fact that it's not really a "pet population", as it's widely understood that the majority of strays in the U.S. are born without human knowledge or assistance. These are truly "wild dogs". The easiest way to not be a part of this problem is to ensure all the dogs you place in homes, as pets, are spayed and neutered -- which I would do.


How would you "ensure" that any pups you breed and sell to pet homes are neutered?


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## Lurcherlad

Tails and Trails said:


> well, he does say in his third post he is from america, so not too sure what hints you are referring to there ???
> 
> ousie is on the right track, the way the guy writes his post he does sound like it is something he has given genuine thought to


Then I'll leave it to the experts


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## Sleeping_Lion

From a breeders perspective, I'd be spitting nails if someone had passed on a pup that was then going to be used in what is really an experiment. However altruistic your aims are, breeding dogs is putting them through a huge risk, there are enough people who allow their dogs to develop new breeds at random, without people adding more to the problem. I'm really not sure how you think you may be improving *anything* by bunging four breeds together? There is absolutely no way you can know you will end up with anything that will breed to any kind of type, truly baffling!


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## Westy

You cannot produce a new breed on your own. You need a large team of people with the same aim because you need to run on whole litters to see how each puppy matures, looking for both the health and type that you are trying to produce. You pick the ones that are nearest to your aim after they are about 2 years old and health tested. You need to keep 3-4 seperate lines going to allow for diversity before you can begin to breed back in to establish a type.

From the way that you word your comments and aims, you have little understanding of what is involved in breeding quality, healthy dogs let alone establishing a new breed.  If you were to stand a chance, you would spend years researching each breed involved and not just starting with one that you have happened to 'acquired' and then one of a non standard colour which is loaded with problems.

PLEASE have this poor girl speyed and leave breeding to those who know what they're doing.


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## Happy Paws2

dandogman said:


> You should probably remove any pictures which feature a pinch collar in the background before you get abuse.


I'm just hope we have a TROLL, who is trying to wind us up, rather than think someone would use one of those hideous things of torture.


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## Guest

Um... guys? The prong isnt even ON a dog. 

One issue at a time eh?

Piebald Danes are a non-showable color and therefore should not be sold on full registration to begin with. Part of the reason they are a non showable color is because they increase the incidence of deafness in harlequin litters. So in addition to all the other ethical issues of breeding mutts with a dog that the breeder may or may not know has changed hands, you also have the ethical issue of breeding a color that is associated with sensory deficits. 

Considering that the whole thing is a major clusterfluck already, the prong doesnt even register on the radar. Its like worrying about a hangnail on an arm broken in 3 places.


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## newfiesmum

ouesi said:


> Um... guys? The prong isnt even ON a dog.
> 
> One issue at a time eh?
> 
> Piebald Danes are a non-showable color and therefore should not be sold on full registration to begin with. Part of the reason they are a non showable color is because they increase the incidence of deafness in harlequin litters. So in addition to all the other ethical issues of breeding mutts with a dog that the breeder may or may not know has changed hands, you also have the ethical issue of breeding a color that is associated with sensory deficits.
> 
> Considering that the whole thing is a major clusterfluck already, the prong doesnt even register on the radar. Its like worrying about a hangnail on an arm broken in 3 places.


Can't agree with that. The fact that the poster owns it, and is obviously not bothered about having it in the photograph and letting everyone know they own it, means they have every intention of using it. And can see no reason why they shouldn't. I hear what you are saying about the colours and everything, but let's not discount the prong collar issue.


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## Guest

SpWaMC said:


> They got her with full breeding rights, yes.


That doesnt answer the question. Does the breeder know YOU have the pup now and intend to breed her? Does the breeder know your breeding goals - to create a new breed, meaning the pup that bears this breeders line will be bred with a non dane?



newfiesmum said:


> Can't agree with that. The fact that the poster owns it, and is obviously not bothered about having it in the photograph and letting everyone know they own it, means they have every intention of using it. And can see no reason why they shouldn't. I hear what you are saying about the colours and everything, but let's not discount the prong collar issue.


Im not discounting the prong, just prioritizing my concerns. Im a tad more worried about adding to the pet overpopulation crisis, especially with dogs who may end up with sensory impairments, than I am about a prong thats not being used.

Prongs are everywhere in the US, for all we know its a friends dogs collar and has nothing to do with the pup. Hell this time last year you would have seen me at a booth with about a dozen prong collars as part of a trade in program I participated in where owners could trade in their prongs and choke collars for a front clip harness and a short training session.


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## Tails and Trails

newfiesmum said:


> Can't agree with that. The fact that the poster owns it, and is obviously not bothered about having it in the photograph and letting everyone know they own it, means they have every intention of using it. And can see no reason why they shouldn't. I hear what you are saying about the colours and everything, but let's not discount the prong collar issue.


Completely second that 
one issue doesn't invalidate the other
both can be priority - I see no problem with mentioning it 
Probability would dictate a prong collar laying next to a dog is for said dog

and I'm 20 years working in rescue and the anti breeding philosophy that has been mentioned in this context is what Ilive and breath


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## newfiesmum

ouesi said:


> That doesnt answer the question. Does the breeder know YOU have the pup now and intend to breed her? Does the breeder know your breeding goals - to create a new breed, meaning the pup that bears this breeders line will be bred with a non dane?
> 
> Im not discounting the prong, just prioritizing my concerns. Im a tad more worried about adding to the pet overpopulation crisis, especially with dogs who may end up with sensory impairments, than I am about a prong thats not being used.
> 
> Prongs are everywhere in the US, for all we know its a friends dogs collar and has nothing to do with the pup. Hell this time last year you would have seen me at a booth with about a dozen prong collars as part of a trade in program I participated in where owners could trade in their prongs and choke collars for a front clip harness and a short training session.


Well done. But we don't see them often in the UK, and they do tend to be an affront when we do.


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## Guest

Tails and Trails said:


> and I'm 20 years working in rescue and the anti breeding philosophy that has been mentioned in this context is what Ilive and breath


Im not anti breeding, Im anti irresponsible breeding. 
We desperately need more good, responsible, ethical breeders. Their dogs dont end up in unsuitable homes, in rescues, and pounds with temperament or health issues.

In fact it is often the responsible breeders who work WITH breed rescues to foster and work with dogs of their breed that do end up homeless. I have all the respect in the world for the work responsible breeders do. They are not the problem. If anything, their practices are very much part of the solution. Take responsibility for every life you create.


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## Tails and Trails

ouesi said:


> Im not anti breeding, Im anti irresponsible breeding.
> We desperately need more good, responsible, ethical breeders. Their dogs dont end up in unsuitable homes, in rescues, and pounds with temperament or health issues.
> 
> In fact it is often the responsible breeders who work WITH breed rescues to foster and work with dogs of their breed that do end up homeless. I have all the respect in the world for the work responsible breeders do. They are not the problem. If anything, their practices are very much part of the solution. Take responsibility for every life you create.


Agreed

Hence the wording of my sentence you have quoted


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## lostbear

SpWaMC said:


> I may as well, I've been doing my research on both Merle/Harlequin and Piebald patterns for some time now... but the information gleaned from genetic write-ups and such doesn't actually help you in any way when trying to tell the two apart in person. Especially considering that if you type in "Harlequin Great Dane" or "Piebald Great Dane" into google, you'll find everything from solid black to solid white listed under both.
> 
> Yep. The dog comes from healthy parents and is papered, so I'm optimistic about her health. The only reason I've got her is because her previous family, good friends of mine, picked her up and then one of them lost their jobs. They were going to hand her back over to the breeder, but I told them I'd take her so that at least they could still see her now and again. ::
> 
> *I have a purpose in mind, yes, but it isn't one that breeders typically look favorably upon: the formulation of a new breed from four existing breeds.*


Never mind getting the dogs tested - *you* want your head examined!


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## lostbear

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I am really hoping this is a School Holiday post.


Me an' all.


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## SpWaMC

dandogman said:


> You should probably remove any pictures which feature a pinch collar in the background before you get abuse.


It's not mine, it belongs to brother... who has a spayed Doberman. I don't imagine that you'd make very much headyway using that thing on a Dane, they don't really respond to that type of stimulus. Not to mention on a puppy.



newfiesmum said:


> I wouldn't call it abuse, just advice. OP I hope you do not intend to use that instrument on your puppy, or any other dog for that matter.


I don't, because a dog that shies away from even something as nonchalant as a pat on the head isn't even remotely desirable to me. I use a clicker and crumbled treats.



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Sorry but I'm afraid you are wrong on one count: a lot of the stray dogs were born because their owners decided on a whim to mate two 'cute' dogs and then sell the 'cute' puppies.


I don't deny that an unacceptable number of strays are unwanted pets. Yet, I also don't ignore the fact that nearly every numerical study into stray dogs lists "wild dogs", that is dogs that were born without human intervention or intention, as being responsible for 50-80% or more of the strays.



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> And irrespective of how they became strays, the end result is the same: the rescues and shelters are crammed, and healthy dogs are being killed on a regular basis purely through lack of available homes.
> 
> Now, taking all that into account, if you still wish to breed then of course that is your call. At least if you are going to hip score and heart and eye test BOTH dam and sire, you'll be doing more than many breeders.


I do intend up fully checking these dogs, and/or breeding them with other breeder's likewise tested animals. The purpose of this thread was simply to discern if an easy method for discerning Piebald from Harlequin in Great Danes, because I imagine I'll be seeing it spring up in my dogs to some extent and I don't really even want to mess around with Merle's at all.



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> As for creating a 'new breed' - would you mind my asking what the purpose of this is? Surely we have enough beautiful breeds?


The purpose is two-fold:

1) A dog that more closely resembles what many call "proto-dog".
2) A dog that, while achieving this appearance, also has a practical working ability or two (i.e. unlike Northern Inuits or so-called Utonagan).

I would define Northern Inuits and other "designer breeds" as being entirely without purpose; in fact, many of their breeders explicitly state as much. I'd see this rectified by emphasizing that a dogs working ability is of equal importance to their physical appearance.



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> As a breeder, you cannot ever guarantee that none of your dogs will end up in rescue. It's simply not possible to give this guarantee. Potential owners can lie, can be good liars, or later they can sell the dog on or be embarrassed to admit they can't cope and end up placing the dog in rescue without telling you.


Yes, but if we assumed that the average dog whelps 8 pups and lives 10 years... a set of two un-spayed/un-neutered dogs would exponentially increase the stray population by 80 before they themselves passed on -- this not counting each of their offspring's 80. A single pairing like this could branch out into thousands of dogs in just a decade.

By spaying/neutering any dog sold as a pet, you're adding a negligible amount of risk to the overarching issue.



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> As for the prong collar - please tell me you don't use that to walk your Danes?


I don't use it to do anything with my Danes. The breed generally doesn't respond well to harshness of any kind, I've found.



Westy said:


> You cannot produce a new breed on your own. You need a large team of people with the same aim because you need to run on whole litters to see how each puppy matures, looking for both the health and type that you are trying to produce. You pick the ones that are nearest to your aim after they are about 2 years old and health tested. You need to keep 3-4 seperate lines going to allow for diversity before you can begin to breed back in to establish a type.


I'm currently setting aside a couple thousand dollars, per month, after all essential expenses have already been paid. I intend upon maintaining numerous lines and giving those few away which are clearly not in keeping with my conceptualization from the onset (i.e. they're solid black from birth, which isn't something I'm breeding for).



Westy said:


> From the way that you word your comments and aims, you have little understanding of what is involved in breeding quality, healthy dogs let alone establishing a new breed.


Not sure how you discerned this from any of my comments. It's an enormous leap to assume that lack of experience with a breed (in this case, Danes) translates to lack of knowledge or experience with all breeds.



Westy said:


> If you were to stand a chance, you would spend years researching each breed involved and not just starting with one that you have happened to 'acquired' and then one of a non standard colour which is loaded with problems.


She isn't my first dog, nor even my first Dane, but she is my first with white in her coat. Hence the thread topic.



ouesi said:


> That doesn't answer the question. Does the breeder know YOU have the pup now and intend to breed her? Does the breeder know your breeding goals - to create a new breed, meaning the pup that bears this breeder's line will be bred with a non dane?


No, but the contract between the other parties is really little more than a bill of sale with some cosmetic information included for verification purposes; the dog came with the health information of both her parents, and one of her grandparents, as well as the few things she was able to have seen to herself (shots, deworming, etc.). The only thing that was implicitly stated was that the breeder could re-claim ownership of the dog if it was found to have been "abused, neglected or in any way mistreated".

You also asked earlier if she was AKC or UKC. She isn't, however I deemed that the health information that I was supplied with was ample enough to warrant her inclusion in my larger breed-plan.

Then only kink, when compared against my other Great Dane who's coat is solid ("blue"), was her potentially burdensome Piebald or Harlequin patterning. I knew of their potential dangers, with the latter being arguably worse, and wanted to figure out a way to discern between the two. 'Tis all.

Edit: It's worth noting that, yes, the dog most certainly came from someone who wouldn't soon be named a reputable breeder; however, the documentation of her health and paternal/maternal forebearers, however minimal if might be compared to many breeders who have countless generations of information available, suggests that it also wasn't a puppy mill.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab

> *By spaying/neutering any dog sold as a pet, you're adding a negligible amount of risk to the overarching issue.*


Apologies if I'm misunderstanding you.

Do you mean that you will be neutering the pups that you sell?

I don't understand how you would be able to, as surely they would be too young to neuter when they go to their new homes...?

Again, I may just be misunderstanding.


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## SpWaMC

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Apologies if I'm misunderstanding you.
> 
> Do you mean that you will be neutering the pups that you sell?
> 
> I don't understand how you would be able to, as surely they would be too young to neuter when they go to their new homes...?
> 
> Again, I may just be misunderstanding.


It's often part of the contract that the dog will need to be spayed/neutered at a specified time, either at their expense or mine; failure to fulfill this would be a breach of the agreement and I'd be within legal rights to re-claim ownership of the dog.

And unless I'm working in cohorts with another breeder, virtually all of the dogs not participating in my own lines will be sold as pets (i.e. requiring spaying/neutering). I'm also pro-early fixing, if anybody is keen upon giving me grief for that as well. :blush:


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## Guest

SpWaMC said:


> I don't deny that an unacceptable number of strays are unwanted pets. Yet, I also don't ignore the fact that *nearly every numerical study into stray dogs lists "wild dogs", that is dogs that were born without human intervention or intention, as being responsible for 50-80% or more of the strays.*


What numerical studies are these? And what reputable, peer reviewed scientific study refers to feral or pariah dogs as wild dogs?



SpWaMC said:


> I do intend up fully checking these dogs, and/or breeding them with other breeder's likewise tested animals. The purpose of this thread was simply to discern if an easy method for discerning Piebald from Harlequin in Great Danes, because I imagine I'll be seeing it spring up in my dogs to some extent and I don't really even want to mess around with Merle's at all.


The phenotype is easy to discern. Piebald is any dog of any breed that has 50% or more of white. Simple. The piebald gene and the merle gene are not mutually exclusive either. Color genetics is above my pay grade, but all the confusion youre having is easily explained in a basic understanding of color genetics.
This is a great site that explains color genetics in danes. Its also a good site to read up on ethical breeding practices.
Chroma-Linx



SpWaMC said:


> The purpose is two-fold:
> 
> 1) A dog that more closely resembles what many call "proto-dog".
> 2) A dog that, while achieving this appearance, also has a practical working ability or two (i.e. unlike Northern Inuits or so-called Utonagan).
> 
> I would define Northern Inuits and other "designer breeds" as being entirely without purpose; in fact, many of their breeders explicitly state as much. I'd see this rectified by emphasizing that a dogs working ability is of equal importance to their physical appearance.


Why would you use a dog with exaggerated size like a dane to create a proto dog? And how can you be breeding for practical working ability when the dog youre choosing as foundation stock is one who you just happened to end up with, from a questionable breeder, with no clue as to what kind of conformation or future working ability this dog will have or carries in her ancestry? Do you understand the role of conformation and temperament in working ability? What kind of work are you talking about anyway?



SpWaMC said:


> By spaying/neutering any dog sold as a pet, you're adding a negligible amount of risk to the overarching issue.


So youre going to spay and neuter a giant breed dog at 8 weeks right before going to the new owner? Do you know the implications of early spay/neuter in giant breed dogs?



SpWaMC said:


> I'm currently setting aside a couple thousand dollars, per month, after all essential expenses have already been paid. I intend upon maintaining numerous lines and giving those few away which are clearly not in keeping with my conceptualization from the onset (i.e. they're solid black from birth, which isn't something I'm breeding for).


If your other dog is a blue youre going to end up with a lot of black dogs. Might want to *really* read that chromadane site  And not sure how color even ties in to creating a proto dog with working ability. Color doesnt matter there - especially not a color like black that isnt associated with sensory defects. (BTW, blues are associated with a lot of skin problems, just FYI.)



SpWaMC said:


> No, but the contract between the other parties is really little more than a bill of sale with some cosmetic information included for verification purposes; the dog came with the health information of both her parents, and one of her grandparents, as well as the few things she was able to have seen to herself (shots, deworming, etc.). The only thing that was implicitly stated was that the breeder could re-claim ownership of the dog if it was found to have been "abused, neglected or in any way mistreated".


So youre not planning on contacting this breeder and letting them know at the very least, that the puppy has changed hands? 
This worries me tremendously that youre thinking about breeding - wouldnt YOU want to know if one of your puppies changed hands? That tells me a lot about your priorities, ethics and just plain old human decency.



SpWaMC said:


> You also asked earlier if she was AKC or UKC. She isn't, however I deemed that the health information that I was supplied with was ample enough to warrant her inclusion in my larger breed-plan.
> 
> Then only kink, when compared against my other Great Dane who's coat is solid ("blue"), was her potentially burdensome Piebald or Harlequin patterning. I knew of their potential dangers, with the latter being arguably worse, and wanted to figure out a way to discern between the two. 'Tis all.
> 
> Edit: It's worth noting that, yes, the dog most certainly came from someone who wouldn't soon be named a reputable breeder; however, the documentation of her health and paternal/maternal forebearers, however minimal if might be compared to many breeders who have countless generations of information available, suggests that it also wasn't a puppy mill.


What kind of health information could an un-registered pup have? Are the parents registered? Do they have PennHip scores? CHIC numbers? Anything other than a once-over at the vet?
And what kind of standard for a *foundation* dog is it to say not from a puppy mill? Seriously? Youre wanting to create a new breed and youre starting with a dog thats genetically a notch above puppy mill standard? Jesus.... You dont get it at all.....

PLEASE spay and neuter your dogs, spend the next 10 to 15 years studying dogs, temperament, structure and its relation to function, breed histories, genetics, pedigrees.... Find a mentor, help raise several litters. THEN, if you still think you need to create a new breed, youll at least have a decent knowledge base to not make a total mess of it.


----------



## newfiesmum

So you use the prong on your brother? Probably best. I have no idea what the breed of dog has to do with the collar. It wouldn't matter what breed it was, those things should be banned. Unless, of course, you are using it on your brother.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I tell you what, I'll save you the trouble. If you go to anywhere in Europe where they've allowed dogs to procreate randomly for many generations, you will pick up something resembling a 'prototype' dog easily, in fact contact Romanian Rescues, they probably have any number that are generations on from your initial breeding plans. Or, since you've pointed out there are wild dogs producing the vast majority of strays in your own county, get one of those, they're more likely to resemble the *type* of dog you want to breed towards.


----------



## lostbear

SpWaMC said:


> *
> 
> Yes, but if we assumed that the average dog whelps 8 pups *and lives 10 years... a set of two un-spayed/un-neutered dogs would exponentially increase the stray population by 80 before they themselves passed on -- this not counting each of their offspring's 80. A single pairing like this could branch out into thousands of dogs in just a decade.
> 
> My daughter has a dane. He was from a litter of 16. His mother has recently produced her second litter - 16 again, though she lost one during whelping).


----------



## lostbear

*


SpWaMC said:



It's often part of the contract that the dog will need to be spayed/neutered at a specified time,

Click to expand...

*


SpWaMC said:


> either at their expense or mine; failure to fulfill this would be a breach of the agreement and I'd be within legal rights to re-claim ownership of the dog.
> 
> And unless I'm working in cohorts with another breeder, virtually all of the dogs not participating in my own lines will be sold as pets (i.e. requiring spaying/neutering). I'm also pro-early fixing, if anybody is keen upon giving me grief for that as well. :blush:


I wonder if it was part of the original contract applying to this pup that the breeder should have right of first refusal if the buyer had to part with the dog?

If it wasn't, you're not necessarily getting a dog that has been carefully and thoughtfully bred anyway, and yet you intend to use her to produce a race of 'proto-dogs' of a specific colour? What 'working' characteristics are you aiming for? Something that will help you achieve world domination. or another equally sensible aim?

If you are pro "early fixing", why not spay your bitch? And get yourself done at the same time - we really don't need your DNA in the gene pool. Your parents must have been splashing about in the shallow end when they produced you and your prong-collar brother. Please promise me that they aren't planning any additions to their family.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lostbear said:


> *
> 
> I wonder if it was part of the original contract applying to this pup that the breeder should have right of first refusal if the buyer had to part with the dog?
> 
> If it wasn't, you're not necessarily getting a dog that has been carefully and thoughtfully bred anyway, and yet you intend to use her to produce a race of 'proto-dogs' of a specific colour? What 'working' characteristics are you aiming for? Something that will help you achieve world domination. or another equally sensible aim?
> 
> If you are pro "early fixing", why not spay your bitch? And get yourself done at the same time - we really don't need your DNA in the gene pool. Your parents must have been splashing about in the shallow end when they produced you and your prong-collar brother. Please promise me that they aren't planning any additions to their family.*


*

Darn it, you've given away my breeding plans for the dogs, *sigh* will have to think again, I wonder if anyone's breeding dogs for intergalactic domination.....hmmmmm.....*


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

Even if you put it in a contract, you will *not* be able to enforce early neutering once the dogs live with their new owners. What are you going to do, visit every single one of them and check they've been done 

And how on earth can you support 'early neutering' for a giant breed  This makes NO sense - you will be likely causing a whole lot of physical and temperament problems by doing this.

No owner who knows anything about giant breeds will agree to neuter a Dane early. That means you will end up with owners of your pups who either don't know or really don't care about the welfare of the dogs that much. Is that what you want?

I'm really starting to wonder if your posts are a 'wind up'. Praying that they are.


----------



## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Darn it, you've given away my breeding plans for the dogs, *sigh* will have to think again, I wonder if anyone's breeding dogs for intergalactic domination.....hmmmmm.....


I KNEW you were up to something! You had been too quiet and well-behaved lately not to have an ulterior motive . . .

Regarding your intergalactic domination ambitions, I have a breeding trio of star pooches (bought them off a space trader - Boba Fett - you may know him - he had procured them from a breeder on Sirius) which have both x-ray laser vision and subsonic barks. Their glow-in-the-dark pink fur means that they aren't much use as guard dogs, because any burglar worth his salt can see them gleaming a mile away. And you can't wear black velvet anywhere near them, what with the magnetic force field and the static cling and stuff.

However, as an unholy army of the night, you can't do much better - and I am assured that the dog carries a merle gene (lime green) that has popped up with pleasing regularity in the litters. One of the bitches has tangerine points, which I understand is a major fault, but if you aren't intending to show them . . .

Anyhow, let me know if you're interested and I'll pop them into an envelope for you. (Did I mention they stood 2 cm at the shoulder?). Don't let them chew anything - their venom eats through walls.


----------



## PennyGSD

SpWaMC said:


> I don't deny that an unacceptable number of strays are unwanted pets. Yet, I also don't ignore the fact that nearly every numerical study into stray dogs lists "wild dogs", that is dogs that were born without human intervention or intention, as being responsible for 50-80% or more of the strays.


I might be missing something obvious here, but how on earth do they know?

I've sat my two ex-Romanian rescues down a number of times, but despite using the most tempting of treats, and my most beguiling tone they simply won't tell me either

a) who their parents were
b) where they lived prior to ending up in the pound as strays
and
c) how old they are.

And I must repeat something I saw on Facebook recently. Somebody had a t-shirt printed up which said something like

'You're going to breed from your dogs? I wasn't aware there was a shortage?"


----------



## SpWaMC

lostbear said:


> I wonder if it was part of the original contract applying to this pup that the breeder should have right of first refusal if the buyer had to part with the dog?


The only bit in the entire contract, which as I said is really only a bill of sale, that even mentions a specific right maintained by the breeder is the right to reclaim the puppy if neglect or abuse is reported and/or witnessed.



lostbear said:


> If it wasn't, you're not necessarily getting a dog that has been carefully and thoughtfully bred anyway, and yet you intend to use her to produce a race of 'proto-dogs' of a specific colour? What 'working' characteristics are you aiming for?


I've already spoken to the first point; to the second, the only requisite is that they're not solid blacks; to the third, "protection" and "trainability".

A proto-dog would look something like a wolf, albeit with notable differences, yet all of the breeds bred for this look currently have little to no working capability.



lostbear said:


> If you are pro "early fixing", why not spay your bitch? And get yourself done at the same time - we really don't need your DNA in the gene pool. Your parents must have been splashing about in the shallow end when they produced you and your prong-collar brother. Please promise me that they aren't planning any additions to their family.


This bit of your post illustrates why, even if they would've been otherwise inclined, people often simply ignore most animal legislation that would be beneficial to everybody (especially the animals): they simply cannot stand the attitude and arrogance that many well-meaning individuals have.



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Even if you put it in a contract, you will *not* be able to enforce early neutering once the dogs live with their new owners. What are you going to do, visit every single one of them and check they've been done


It's as if people believe we live in a world without mandates already.If you don't fax me a copy of the vet summary, indicating neuter/spay treatment, I come calling. It's as simple as that.



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> And how on earth can you support 'early neutering' for a giant breed  This makes NO sense - you will be likely causing a whole lot of physical and temperament problems by doing this.


It is _possible_, and considered by most veterinarians to be unproven, that your dog might develop cancer or have a diminutive size because of their early neutering... it's almost certain that they will be better-mannered and more-alert because of their neutering.

The risk is worth the reward, here, as they say.



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> No owner who knows anything about giant breeds will agree to neuter a Dane early. That means you will end up with owners of your pups who either don't know or really don't care about the welfare of the dogs that much. Is that what you want?


I could probably find a few dozen Great Dane breeders, in my state alone, which spay/neuter theirs dogs BEFORE they're sold... at exactly the weaning age. So, again, this is just arrogant "I'm a pet person, I'm a better person" talk -- which is to say, you're blowing smoke.[/quote]


----------



## Guest

SpWaMC said:


> The only bit in the entire contract, which as I said is really only a bill of sale, that even mentions a specific right maintained by the breeder is the right to reclaim the puppy if neglect or abuse is reported and/or witnessed.


So youre not going to do the decent thing and let the breeder know the pup changed hands and that you plan on breeding her? I dont care what the contract says, just plain old decency....



SpWaMC said:


> I've already spoken to the first point; to the second, the only requisite is that they're not solid blacks; to the third, "protection" and "trainability".
> 
> A proto-dog would look something like a wolf, albeit with notable differences, yet all of the breeds bred for this look currently have little to no working capability.


There are already numerous dogs that look like a wolf, are not black, and offer protection and trainability.

And if you want a dog who looks like a wolf, why are you starting with a dane?!
Last time I looked at a dane (have one sitting next to me in fact) they dont look a thing like a wolf from their size, structure, single coat, floppy ears, square muzzle etc. etc. Thats a LOT of phenotype to breed away from when there are already so many breeds that already have the look of a wolf?



SpWaMC said:


> It is _possible_, and considered by most veterinarians to be unproven, that your dog might develop cancer or have a diminutive size because of their early neutering... it's almost certain that they will be better-mannered and more-alert because of their neutering.


Oh your posts just get better and better LOL.
Early neutering causes LARGER size, not diminutive size. And it certainly doesnt make dogs more alert 



SpWaMC said:


> I could probably find a few dozen Great Dane breeders, in my state alone, which spay/neuter theirs dogs BEFORE they're sold... at exactly the weaning age. So, again, this is just arrogant "I'm a pet person, I'm a better person" talk -- which is to say, you're blowing smoke.


[/QUOTE]A *dozen* great dane breeders in your state who neuter at weaning age? Bullspit. PLEASE provide me with links that prove me wrong. I cant wait


----------



## Wiz201

SpWaMC said:


> It's as if people believe we live in a world without mandates already.If you don't fax me a copy of the vet summary, indicating neuter/spay treatment, I come calling. It's as simple as that..


I don't agree with that personally, I'll never choose a breeder that came chasing for that.


----------



## Rafa

I've read some fanciful, high faluting nonsense in my time, but this lot just about takes the biscuit.

If you're aiming to produce a breed with a wolf like appearance, why are you starting off by mating your Dane Dog to a Dane Bitch? 

And, I would love to know which breed you're going to introduce into the mix next in your quest to produce this Wolf like creature.

Some people breed Wolf Hybrids, so haven't you a hell of a long way to go to get anywhere close to that and how many puppies are you going to produce in the process?

Can you guarantee good, permanent homes for all these crossbreeds you're going to be churning out?


----------



## lostbear

SpWaMC said:


> The only bit in the entire contract, which as I said is really only a bill of sale, that even mentions a specific right maintained by the breeder is the right to reclaim the puppy if neglect or abuse is reported and/or witnessed.
> 
> Personally, I regard what you are intending to do as abusive.
> 
> I've already spoken to the first point; to the second, the only requisite is that they're not solid blacks; to the third, "protection" and "trainability".
> 
> Ah - of course! There are so few breeds of dog available which already meet these two criteria
> 
> *A proto-dog would look something like a wolf, albeit with notable differences, *
> 
> Like - say - a german shepherd. Or a husky. Or a malamute.
> 
> *yet all of the breeds bred for this look currently have little to no working capability.*
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - honestly! It's the way you tell 'em!
> 
> This bit of your post illustrates why, even if they would've been otherwise inclined, people often simply ignore most animal legislation that would be beneficial to everybody (especially the animals): they simply cannot stand the attitude and arrogance that many well-meaning individuals have.
> 
> And other people can't stand the attitude and the arrogance some uninformed would-be breeders of "new" dogs have.
> 
> It's as if people believe we live in a world without mandates already.*If you don't fax me a copy of the vet summary, indicating neuter/spay treatment, I come calling. It's as simple as that.*
> 
> "Simple". Yes - I see how "simple" could apply to you.
> 
> It is _possible_, and considered by most veterinarians to be unproven, that your dog might develop cancer or *have a diminutive size because of their early neutering*... it's almost certain that they will be better-mannered and more-alert because of their neutering.
> 
> I have never heard this - on the contrary, most neutered animals tend to grow larger.
> 
> *The risk is worth the reward, here, as they say.*
> 
> The dogs' risk, your reward.
> 
> *I could probably find a few dozen Great Dane breeders, in my state alone, which spay/neuter theirs dogs BEFORE they're sold... at exactly the weaning age.*
> 
> If that is so (and I seriously doubt it), then I can probably also point to a few dozen Great Dane breeders, in your state alone, whose puppies end up with horrendously malformed long bones, and/or legs which are grossly out of proportion to the body. In a breed like this, the bones must be given the opportunity to develop before the pup is neutered. Those legs are going to be carrying a LOT of weight.
> 
> So, again, this is just arrogant "I'm a pet person, I'm a better person" talk -- which is to say, you're blowing smoke.


[/QUOTE]

You think I'm arrogant - I think you are. I may come across as arrogant because I get pushed to the limits of my patience by people too blinkered to accept that what they are doing would be laughable except that there are going to be a lot of innocent animals who will end up suffering.

You supposedly intend to create a new breed from four existing ones - we know that one is a dane ( a famously wolf-like breed), what are the others?

So you have A x B = AB
and C x D = CD

Then you cross AB x CD = ABCD ("protodog")

So in these initial stages alone, you have *at least * 3 litters of (you reckon 8 puppies, I think maybe 16 - let's split the difference and call it 12 per litter). So already you have produced 36 puppies. But you will need more than that because you want to make sure that you breed out any undesirable traits and characteristics - and maybe you will need to have A x C or B x D matings (or indeed, any of the 6 available crosses that could take place). And then you need to get your "protodogs" to breed true - how many generations do you think that is going to take?

And all the way through this you are churning out (there is no other term for it) litter after litter of cross-bred puppies that you claim you will be able to ensure good, responsible homes for.

It's people like you that get idiots a bad name. . .


----------



## Nicky10

No dogs that look like wolves with any working ability shall we tell that to all those huskies and malamutes and crosses of such that are pulling sleds in the arctic. I'm sure they'll be very interested. Or the elkhound still bred and used for it's original purpose in it's native Norway. Or all the gsds working as police and army dogs or as herders which look a lot more like wolves than most danes.


----------



## lilythepink

OP, if you have to come on a pet forum asking what colour the puppy you got is, do you really think you are experienced enough to breed?

Great Danes are very difficult to rehome once they are abandonned, not many people have the room or the experience to deal with such a large dog that may or may not have issues.

Why would you want to breed a new breed of dog? Aren't there enough to choose from already?

Have you any idea how much it would cost to rear a Great Dane litter?

I am not anti breeding cos if people didn't breed, none of us would have dogs...but going about it this way just smacks of it being an easy way to make money.


----------



## Guest

Nicky10 said:


> No dogs that look like wolves with any working ability shall we tell that to all those huskies and malamutes and crosses of such that are pulling sleds in the arctic. I'm sure they'll be very interested. Or the elkhound still bred and used for it's original purpose in it's native Norway. Or all the gsds working as police and army dogs or as herders which look a lot more like wolves than most danes.


I know... the whole thing gets more and more ludicrous. From the fact that there arent any working breeds out there that look like wolves, to using danes to create a wolf-like dog, to the dozens of dane breeders in one state alone who neuter before the puppy before sale.... I dont even know where to start.

Im really hoping this is a wind-up or at least just a very ignorant person who will read the posts and come to their senses and realize what a bad idea this all is.


----------



## Rafa

I must really be missing something, but not a word of it makes any sense to me.

Why, if you wanted to breed a dog with a Wolf like appearance, would you make your Foundation Bitch a Great Dane and have to produce many generations to breed out the Dane influence and appearance?

It would be like me saying "Oh, I want to create a new breed with a bear like appearance, so I'm going to mate two Jack Russells".

At some point, I imagine, she would have to cross in Husky or Malamute to get the Wolf like appearance and, as these are already established breeds, wouldn't she just be producing bog standard crossbreeds?


----------



## lostbear

lilythepink said:


> OP, *if you have to come on a pet forum asking what colour the puppy you got is, do you really think you are experienced enough to breed?*
> 
> Great Danes are very difficult to rehome once they are abandonned, not many people have the room or the experience to deal with such a large dog that may or may not have issues.
> 
> Why would you want to breed a new breed of dog? Aren't there enough to choose from already?
> 
> Have you any idea how much it would cost to rear a Great Dane litter?
> 
> I am not anti breeding cos if people didn't breed, none of us would have dogs...but going about it this way just smacks of it being an easy way to make money.


EXACTLY! You have encapsulated the entire argument.


----------



## LinznMilly

SpWaMC said:


> *A proto-dog would look something like a wolf, albeit with notable differences, yet all of the breeds bred for this look currently have little to no working capability.*


How about a head-start. I'll send Max over - he's been mistaken for a wolf many times By 6-10y/o kids: :w00t:


Can't you just feel the wolfish qualities oozing out of him? 

I'll even throw Milly in for free! Might as well start by crossing a "wolf" with a "fox" :thumbup:

Oh ... wait ... :001_unsure: ... He's 10 ... and neutered... So's Milly.

Never mind. 



SpWaMC said:


> It's as if people believe we live in a world without mandates already.If you don't fax me a copy of the vet summary, indicating neuter/spay treatment, I come calling. It's as simple as that.


Threatening perspective puppy buyers, huh? That's a nice sales technique. :yesnod: I'm sure you won't have any problems selling you're badly-bred mongrel misfits to decent homes with that attitude. :thumbup: 

Sorry, but I'm in a silly mood and I can't take this thread seriously.

I'll get me coat. :crazy:


----------



## Rafa

LinznMilly said:


> How about a head-start. I'll send Max over - he's been mistaken for a wolf many times By 6-10y/o kids: :w00t:
> 
> 
> Can't you just feel the wolfish qualities oozing out of him?
> 
> I'll even throw Milly in for free! Might as well start by crossing a "wolf" with a "fox" :thumbup:
> 
> Oh ... wait ... :001_unsure: ... He's 10 ... and neutered... So's Milly.
> 
> Never mind.
> 
> Threatening perspective puppy buyers, huh? That's a nice sales technique. :yesnod: I'm sure you won't have any problems selling you're badly-bred mongrel misfits to decent homes with that attitude. :thumbup:
> 
> Sorry, but I'm in a silly mood and I can't take this thread seriously.
> 
> I'll get me coat. :crazy:


And when she "Goes Calling", what is she going to do when she finds these adults to be still entire, impound them and bring them home with her?

Wonder how they will fit into her breeding programme?


----------



## simplysardonic

SpWaMC said:


> A proto-dog would look something like a wolf, albeit with notable differences, yet all of the breeds bred for this look currently have little to no working capability.


Because there's not enough 'wolfy' looking dogs already being churned out already 

I would have thought 'looks like a wolf' is fairly low on the list of prerequisites for a good working dog, unless it's auditioning for a part in 'Game of Thrones'.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lostbear said:


> I KNEW you were up to something! You had been too quiet and well-behaved lately not to have an ulterior motive . . .
> 
> Regarding your intergalactic domination ambitions, I have a breeding trio of star pooches (bought them off a space trader - Boba Fett - you may know him - he had procured them from a breeder on Sirius) which have both x-ray laser vision and subsonic barks. Their glow-in-the-dark pink fur means that they aren't much use as guard dogs, because any burglar worth his salt can see them gleaming a mile away. And you can't wear black velvet anywhere near them, what with the magnetic force field and the static cling and stuff.
> 
> However, as an unholy army of the night, you can't do much better - and I am assured that the dog carries a merle gene (lime green) that has popped up with pleasing regularity in the litters. One of the bitches has tangerine points, which I understand is a major fault, but if you aren't intending to show them . . .
> 
> Anyhow, let me know if you're interested and I'll pop them into an envelope for you. (Did I mention they stood 2 cm at the shoulder?). Don't let them chew anything - their venom eats through walls.


I'm sorry, but the possibility of tangerine points is a no no for me, wouldn't match the decor I'm afraid. I've already had to rehome my battle cat as he reverted to the cringer colours (those with childhoods from the 80's will understand that reference).

====================================================

So, you want to breed a prototype dog, ie something that looks like a *natural* dog, ie the brown thing, or is it the wolfalike, and your starting point is a great dane you just happen to have acquired. Hmmmmmm, that's like me saying I want to breed a chihuahua from my Labradors, and you wonder why your posts aren't being taken seriously.


----------



## SpWaMC

ouesi said:


> So youre not going to do the decent thing and let the breeder know the pup changed hands and that you plan on breeding her? I dont care what the contract says, just plain old decency....


I may once the puppy is old enough for me to actually start considering options, which for me is their second or third season depending upon their maturity.

I might even decide that the struggle against her genetics (i.e. depending on if she's legitimately Piebald or Harlequin/Merle) isn't worth the expended effort to breed out.



ouesi said:


> There are already numerous dogs that look like a wolf, are not black, and offer protection and trainability.


Perhaps you could name a few? Keeping in mind that the resemblance should extend beyond coat and coloration into size and shape.

So this would exclude the following breeds:

*Alaskan Malamute*
*Siberian Husky*
*"Alaskan Husky"* | Although, this isn't necessarily a real or recognized breed.
*German Shepherds*
*Northern Inuits* | Though sometimes these are close to what has been conceptualized as a "proto-dog", they're not bred implicitly for certain traits which would be pivotal to the breed standard (namely their size, but also structurally).



ouesi said:


> And if you want a dog who looks like a wolf, why are you starting with a dane?!


Their size, firstly.
Their structure, secondly. (They're square-shaped.)
Their temperment, thirdly.



ouesi said:


> Last time I looked at a dane (have one sitting next to me in fact) they dont look a thing like a wolf from their size, structure, single coat, floppy ears, square muzzle etc. etc.


Their size is similar, if you're measuring at the withers.
Their structure is similar only in that they're both quite squared.
Their coat, muzzle and ears are indeed dissimilar.



ouesi said:


> Thats a LOT of phenotype to breed away from when there are already so many breeds that already have the look of a wolf?


Perhaps. In theory, however, it will result in a more true-to-form "proto-dog" than any of the existing designer breeds of "wolf-like dogs".



ouesi said:


> Early neutering causes LARGER size, not diminutive size. And it certainly doesnt make dogs more alert


That's correct, consider my statement retracted. Nonetheless, the general sentiment stands -- _potential_ characteristics are a risk many are willing to take to maintain a few _certain_ characteristics.

[/QUOTE]A *dozen* great dane breeders in your state who neuter at weaning age? Bullspit. PLEASE provide me with links that prove me wrong. I cant wait [/QUOTE]

I'll compile as big a list as I can, after I respond to some of these other posters.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

SpWaMC said:


> It is _possible_, and considered by most veterinarians to be unproven, that your dog might develop cancer or have a diminutive size because of their early neutering... *it's almost certain that they will be better-mannered and more-alert because of their neutering.*
> 
> The risk is worth the reward, here, as they say.
> 
> I could probably find a few dozen Great Dane breeders, in my state alone, which spay/neuter theirs dogs BEFORE they're sold... at exactly the weaning age. *So, again, this is just arrogant "I'm a pet person, I'm a better person" talk -- which is to say, you're blowing smoke*.


[/QUOTE]

lol lol You're the one who thinks he/she has the skills to create an entirely new breed - yet I'm 'arrogant'?  You should be a comedian. You really should.

Oh, and the fact that there exist Dane breeders who would neuter so early does not make it right - it simply proves that there are some awfully UNethical breeders out there.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

SpWaMC said:


> I may once the puppy is old enough for me to actually start considering options, which for me is their second or third season depending upon their maturity.
> 
> I might even decide that the struggle against her genetics (i.e. depending on if she's legitimately Piebald or Harlequin/Merle) isn't worth the expended effort to breed out.
> 
> Perhaps you could name a few? Keeping in mind that the resemblance should extend beyond coat and coloration into size and shape.
> 
> So this would exclude the following breeds:
> 
> *Alaskan Malamute*
> *Siberian Husky*
> *"Alaskan Husky"* | Although, this isn't necessarily a real or recognized breed.
> *German Shepherds*
> *Northern Inuits* | Though sometimes these are close to what has been conceptualized as a "proto-dog", they're not bred implicitly for certain traits which would be pivotal to the breed standard (namely their size, but also structurally).
> 
> Their size, firstly.
> Their structure, secondly. (They're square-shaped.)
> Their temperment, thirdly.
> 
> Their size is similar, if you're measuring at the withers.
> Their structure is similar only in that they're both quite squared.
> Their coat, muzzle and ears are indeed dissimilar.
> 
> Perhaps. In theory, however, it will result in a more true-to-form "proto-dog" than any of the existing designer breeds of "wolf-like dogs".
> 
> That's correct, consider my statement retracted. Nonetheless, the general sentiment stands -- _potential_ characteristics are a risk many are willing to take to maintain a few _certain_ characteristics.


A *dozen* great dane breeders in your state who neuter at weaning age? Bullspit. PLEASE provide me with links that prove me wrong. I cant wait [/QUOTE]

I'll compile as big a list as I can, after I respond to some of these other posters.[/QUOTE]

And the puppy was free?

Giant breed, short lived, and a few health issues, including those related to coat colour, why on earth start a breeding programme based on making a *new* breed on a dane pup?


----------



## Nicky10

Grey wolves are the largest wolf species and, yes according to wiki, they are
The gray wolf or grey wolf (Canis lupus) is a canid native to the wilderness and remote areas of North America, Eurasia, and North Africa. It is the largest member of its family, with males averaging 43&#8211;45 kg (95&#8211;99 lb), and females 36&#8211;38.5 kg (79&#8211;85 lb).

To me that's more malamute than dane sized.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

You really don't seem to know much about neutering. Without the testosterone as they mature, a dog can struggle with 'fear periods' and you could end up with a group of very nervy, fearful dogs on your hands.

You speak of risks and rewards - it's the risks to the DOGS that we are all worried about. You are not a dog lover, that comes across loud and clear.

And your sheer ignorance is eclipsed only by your arrogance. God help any dogs you do breed.


----------



## Guest

SpWaMC just a few points and some questions that you dont have to answer, but I hope you at least consider.

1. Not telling the puppys breeder that the puppy has changed hands is just plain uncool. You hope to be a breeder, imagine how you would feel if this were your pup. Do the decent thing and tell the breeder. They may not care, but at least they will know where their puppy ended up.

2. If it turns out that you dont intend to breed this puppy because of her coloration, what do you intend to do with her? If she is no use to you as breeding stock what will become of her?

3. What exactly do you think a wolf looks like? And a great dane?
Do you understand the intricacies of structure and how it relates to function? Square refers only to the length of the body in relation to the length of the legs. Has absolutely nothing to do with the angles of the legs, the position of the individual joints, the length of the individual bones, and how all of those pieces work together for different function. A wolf may be a square canid like a dane, but ones structure is geared far more towards endurance and efficiency of movement while the others is geared towards explosive power. 

A BYB dane however is likely to have completely unsuitable structure for any kind of work let alone long-term soundness. Ditto for temperament. 

4. Protection and trainability. What kind of protection are you talking about? Guarding people, property, livestock? Or actual personal protection where the dog is willing to confront and battle an intruder?
Trainability is largely dependent on drive. The odds of a BYB dane having any kind of useable drive are slim to none. Thats not something you can hope will show up somewhere down the line. You cant create a drivey breed from an undrivey dog.


----------



## Rafa

You know Great Dane breeders who neuter their pups at exactly the weaning age?

Is that when weaning beings? When I was breeding, I used to start weaning at three weeks old.

Are you proposing taking this litter of tiny pups, barely had chance to get their eyes open, to your vet and asking him to neuter the lot?

I'd be horrified at any vet who even agreed to do it and I know what my Vet would have to say faced with such a proposition.

I want to be honest now. I don't think you could care less about your dogs, what you're proposing to do with them or what will happen to the pups you're planning to produce.

I think you're so pumped with your own ridiculous ideas and so controlled by your ego, you've lost touch with reality.

From what I've read, you don't love dogs, you use them.

Do you think your little Great Dane pup wants to become the basis of your ill conceived experiment? Certainly not, this is what YOU want to do and you'll quite happily use your dogs to do it.

Shame on you.


----------



## SpWaMC

lostbear said:


> You supposedly intend to create a new breed from four existing ones - we know that one is a dane ( a famously wolf-like breed), what are the others?


I wrote out a detail post, nearly finished it, went to eat and when I came back somebody had closed it. So now you get the short version of this post.

Siberian Husky
Alaskan Malamute
German Shepherd.

There will be others breeds bred in, at 1/16th ratios, but the above are the primary breeds.



lostbear said:


> So you have A x B = AB
> and C x D = CD
> 
> Then you cross AB x CD = ABCD ("protodog")
> 
> So in these initial stages alone, you have *at least * 3 litters of (you reckon 8 puppies, I think maybe 16 - let's split the difference and call it 12 per litter). So already you have produced 36 puppies. But you will need more than that because you want to make sure that you breed out any undesirable traits and characteristics - and maybe you will need to have A x C or B x D matings (or indeed, any of the 6 available crosses that could take place). And then you need to get your "protodogs" to breed true - how many generations do you think that is going to take?


I expect it will take four generations for the fundamental structure to begin taking shape, and then probably another three to get to a point of "breeding true". So seven generations, if not more, per line.



lostbear said:


> And all the way through this you are churning out (there is no other term for it) litter after litter of cross-bred puppies that you claim you will be able to ensure good, responsible homes for.
> 
> It's people like you that get idiots a bad name. . .


I could financially support around 20 dogs myself, give or take a few, indefinitely. Those that can't be placed will remain with me (albeit, spayed/neutered)... and they'll have 40 acres of Pacific Northwest fields, forests and rivers to explore.



Nicky10 said:


> No dogs that look like wolves with any working ability shall we tell that to all those huskies and malamutes and crosses of such that are pulling sleds in the arctic. I'm sure they'll be very interested. Or the elkhound still bred and used for it's original purpose in it's native Norway. Or all the gsds working as police and army dogs or as herders which look a lot more like wolves than most danes.


http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/736x/ef/b1/5f/efb15f4d3f87ae3201c5890f41fc37b6.jpg

There goes Husky, as well as Malamute.

The Norwegian Elkhound is, comparatively, quite a bit smaller than even other large dogs.

A GSD, without any crossing, is pretty much dissimilar to wolves in every conceivable way. Especially ears and coloration.



lilythepink said:


> OP, if you have to come on a pet forum asking what colour the puppy you got is, do you really think you are experienced enough to breed?


I didn't ask anything about it's color.

I asked if there was a way to discern between Piebald (a coat pattern) and Harlequin (a coat pattern), in a dog that has clearly inherited an extreme whitening from one of the two, without the use of genetic tests. It was purely for future reference.



lilythepink said:


> Great Danes are very difficult to rehome once they are abandonned, not many people have the room or the experience to deal with such a large dog that may or may not have issues.


Yes.



lilythepink said:


> Why would you want to breed a new breed of dog? Aren't there enough to choose from already?


None that would currently satisfy my criterion.



lilythepink said:


> Have you any idea how much it would cost to rear a Great Dane litter?


A decent chunk of money, to be sure.



Nicky10 said:


> It is the largest member of its family, with males averaging 4345 kg (9599 lb), and females 3638.5 kg (7985 lb).
> 
> To me that's more malamute than dane sized.


Yep, but the dogs that would most easily be bred together to achieve a wolf-like appearance are smaller and lighter. So off-set this you'd need those breeds to become larger (namely, taller).


----------



## Rafa

I still would like to know why, if you're aiming to breed 'Wolf Like' dogs, you aim to begin by breeding a litter of purebred Great Danes?

Wouldn't be anything to do with the money would it?

Also, I did ask what breeds you aim to bring into this breeding to produce the Wolf Like characteristics?


----------



## simplysardonic

I'm afraid none of the 'aims' of your breeding plans seem to make any sense to me  but maybe I'm just being obtuse because whenever I hear the word 'wolf' when applied to domestic dogs I think it's a marketing ploy.

What is your ultimate goal? 

Why do you want to add to the already saturated wolf-a-like market?

Why do you want to create a 'new' working type dog when there are already hundreds of breeds & landraces worldwide out there that fill every conceivable niche already?

What do you plan to do with all the 'rejects' from this breeding programme? Bearing in mind that while they might not be up to speed for working, they may still be too much for the 'average' pet home.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

I hope this may be helpful for anyone confused by this thread.

Wolf:









Great Dane:


----------



## SpWaMC

ouesi said:


> SpWaMC just a few points and some questions that you dont have to answer, but I hope you at least consider.


I'll certainly consider them.



ouesi said:


> 1. Not telling the puppys breeder that the puppy has changed hands is just plain uncool. You hope to be a breeder, imagine how you would feel if this were your pup. Do the decent thing and tell the breeder. They may not care, but at least they will know where their puppy ended up.


I agree and it's likely that they won't care at all. In earlier posts I only meant to emphasize that there are no contractual obligations regarding the puppy, and therefore no legal mechanism barring me from utilizing her as foundation stock.



ouesi said:


> 2. If it turns out that you dont intend to breed this puppy because of her coloration, what do you intend to do with her? If she is no use to you as breeding stock what will become of her?


As of this point, she's still considered to be a future breeding stock Dame. If that were to change due to health issues (she's going in this Tues. for another checkup), she'd probably stick around here for some additional training and then I'd find her a home elsewhere.



ouesi said:


> 3. What exactly do you think a wolf looks like? And a great dane?
> Do you understand the intricacies of structure and how it relates to function? Square refers only to the length of the body in relation to the length of the legs. Has absolutely nothing to do with the angles of the legs, the position of the individual joints, the length of the individual bones, and how all of those pieces work together for different function. A wolf may be a square canid like a dane, but ones structure is geared far more towards endurance and efficiency of movement while the others is geared towards explosive power.


This is why I'll need to be highly scrupulous with regards to the resultant crosses; it's not enough that the dog appears correctly, if it doesn't function correctly. If it were, I'd just go buy a handful of Northern Inuits and let them prance around my fields without rhyme or reason.



ouesi said:


> A BYB dane however is likely to have completely unsuitable structure for any kind of work let alone long-term soundness. Ditto for temperament.


It stands to reason that her breeder was somewhere between a backyard breeder and a respectable, AKC breeder. They had medical records on some of her parentage, even if it's slightly limited in scope. That's better than puppies you might purchase off something like Craigslist or... ebay?



ouesi said:


> 4. Protection and trainability. What kind of protection are you talking about? Guarding people, property, livestock? Or actual personal protection where the dog is willing to confront and battle an intruder?


A homestead guardian, primarily. A few similar breeds with similar personalities to those I'm trying to cultivate include the Doberman Pinschers and Boerboels, both of which will likely be studded into my lines at 1/16th ratios at some point.



ouesi said:


> Trainability is largely dependent on drive. The odds of a BYB dane having any kind of useable drive are slim to none. Thats not something you can hope will show up somewhere down the line. You cant create a drivey breed from an undrivey dog.


True.


----------



## Nicky10

It can take more than 7 generations look at the history of breeds that are more recently developed, there are pedigrees for most of the silken windhounds and details on what it took for other breeds. Take a look at the project to produce korthal's griffons
History of The Korthals Griffon

And he was starting with breeds that actually looked like what he wanted to produce. There are already plenty of homestead and flock guardians who can do the job just as well.


----------



## Guest

Shoshannah said:


> I hope this may be helpful for anyone confused by this thread.
> 
> Wolf:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great Dane:


Ah! Now it all makes sense :crazy:


----------



## Rafa

A Doberman? How does that look anything like a wolf?

You know what I find remarkable?

You just happened to own a Dane dog and were given a Dane bitch pup and suddenly, as if by magic, you've realised that this Breed is the ideal foundation for your Wolf Alike breed.

How fortuitous!


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Sweety said:


> A Doberman? How does that look anything like a wolf?


Got four legs and two ears, don't it?


----------



## Rafa

Shoshannah said:


> I hope this may be helpful for anyone confused by this thread.
> 
> Wolf:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great Dane:


That really made me laugh. I'm so glad you've cleared up that particular little bit of confusion for us. x


----------



## Rafa

Shoshannah said:


> Got four legs and two ears, don't it?


Oh yeah and, it can produce puppies. Mustn't forget that. x


----------



## simplysardonic

SpWaMC said:


> *A homestead guardian, primarily.* A few similar breeds with similar personalities to those I'm trying to cultivate include the Doberman Pinschers and Boerboels, both of which will likely be studded into my lines at 1/16th ratios at some point.


But _why_ does it need to look like a wolf?

Or is it a cunning plot to confuse the neighbourhood wolves? A 'wolf' in wolf's clothing to infiltrate them from the inside :glare:


----------



## Guest

If youre not a lawyer or a politician by trade, you should be. Youre very good at evasive and plain old non-answers that sound like you know what youre talking about. (Operative wording: sound like)

Okay. You still havent said that youre going to tell the breeder what youre doing. Reason #547 why I will never breed - sell a dog, dog changes hands ends up as breeding stock for a new breed or if not adopted out to a third home all of which without my knowledge. Arent people grand? 


SpWaMC said:


> It stands to reason that her breeder was somewhere between a backyard breeder and a respectable, AKC breeder. They had medical records on some of her parentage, even if it's slightly limited in scope. That's better than puppies you might purchase off something like Craigslist or... ebay?


Medical records or published health testing results. A rabies certificate on file is not the same thing as a PennHip score published and easily searchable by pedigree. You do understand the difference yes?
Again, youre starting out with crap yet youre hoping to produce stardust. Im afraid it doesnt work that way.



SpWaMC said:


> This is why I'll need to be highly scrupulous with regards to the resultant crosses; it's not enough that the dog appears correctly, if it doesn't function correctly.


Heres a crazy idea. How bout you get a dog with proper structure and function by STARTING OUT WITH a dog with proper structure and function. Oh, thats right. No halfway decent breeder who has an inkling of a clue about proper structure and function would let you touch their dogs with a ten foot pole knowing what you intend to do with them.



SpWaMC said:


> A homestead guardian, primarily. A few similar breeds with similar personalities to those I'm trying to cultivate include the Doberman Pinschers and Boerboels, both of which will likely be studded into my lines at 1/16th ratios at some point.


Mmmm... and what kind of market or even need do you think there is for a homestead guardian in the US? LGD already fill a huge role there for most ranchers/farmers. Many of the LGD also double as protection dogs. And they look like wolves. Well, at least more like wolves than a great dane or Doberman....


----------



## simplysardonic

ouesi said:


> *And they look like wolves*. Well, at least more like wolves than a great dane or Doberman....


But just not wolfy _enough_ darn it!

Plus saying 'Sarplainninac' or 'Caucasian Sheepdog' (sp?) possibly wouldn't be as glamorous & mystical as saying 'wolf-dog'....


----------



## Rafa

ouesi said:


> If youre not a lawyer or a politician by trade, you should be. Youre very good at evasive and plain old non-answers that sound like you know what youre talking about. (Operative wording: sound like)
> 
> Okay. You still havent said that youre going to tell the breeder what youre doing. Reason #547 why I will never breed - sell a dog, dog changes hands ends up as breeding stock for a new breed or if not adopted out to a third home all of which without my knowledge. Arent people grand?
> Medical records or published health testing results. A rabies certificate on file is not the same thing as a PennHip score published and easily searchable by pedigree. You do understand the difference yes?
> Again, youre starting out with crap yet youre hoping to produce stardust. Im afraid it doesnt work that way.
> 
> Heres a crazy idea. How bout you get a dog with proper structure and function by STARTING OUT WITH a dog with proper structure and function. Oh, thats right. No halfway decent breeder who has an inkling of a clue about proper structure and function would let you touch their dogs with a ten foot pole knowing what you intend to do with them.
> 
> Mmmm... and what kind of market or even need do you think there is for a homestead guardian in the US? LGD already fill a huge role there for most ranchers/farmers. Many of the LGD also double as protection dogs. And they look like wolves. Well, at least more like wolves than a great dane or Doberman....


Yes, but are they square? Apparently, squareness is a major priority here.


----------



## Guest

simplysardonic said:


> But just not wolfy _enough_ darn it!
> 
> Plus saying 'Sarplainninac' or 'Caucasian Sheepdog' (sp?) possibly wouldn't be as glamorous & mystical as saying 'wolf-dog'....


Well that and people dont tend to randomly end up with cast off ovcharkas and such...


----------



## Nicky10

Square and looks like a wolf 









Of course they're not giant because all wolves are dane sized :crazy: but you can always breed for the size.


----------



## Guest

Okay so if Im understanding correctly, OP is going to create a dog breed for homestead guarding that is square in structure, looks like a wolf, and is trainable. And theyre going to achieve this from a combination of dane, GSD, malamute, and sibe. Maybe with a little dobe and boerboel thrown in for good measure.

Theyre going to neuter all pups not meant for breeding, find them homes (because we all know what a massive market there is out there for mutely mixes of guardian and northern breed messes), and keep the rest on 40 acres of idyllic woods and streams. No worries about the dobie, GSD and dane tendencies to *need* to be with their humans Im sure. 

Yeah... I dont see any problem with this plan.... Sounds legit.




Said no person with any iota of dog knowledge or reasoning skills...




Heres my suggestion to SpWaMC:
Abandon all plans for breeding anything. 
Spend the next 10 to 15 years learning everything you can get your hands on about dogs. Go to form and function lectures, go to training seminars, volunteer at your local rescue, offer to walk the shelter dogs and assist with fostering a litter of side-of-the-road-special puppies. Put miles in to experience and learning. Then, after 15 years, if you still want to breed, find a mentor and spend the next 5 to 10 years working closely with your mentor. And if you still feel the need at that point to create a breed that looks like a wolf, guards like a boerboel and trains like a GSD, go back to step one. Because you still dont get it.


----------



## Rafa

Nicky10 said:


> Square and looks like a wolf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they're not giant because all wolves are dane sized :crazy: but you can always breed for the size.


Fantastic!

All of this has given me a real yen to breed Tazmanian Devil lookalikes.

Of course, I'm not going to do the obvious and begin with a couple of Devils. Oh no, I'm going to go all round the houses and breed about ten generations till I get something that tears round at breakneck speed, making vicious noises.

I'm going to start with my Jack Russell bitch and take it from there.

She's square you see, so everything will work out.


----------



## babycham2002

What's an LGD please?


----------



## Nicky10

babycham2002 said:


> What's an LGD please?


Breed bred to live out with the flocks pyr mountain dog, komondor, sarplanniacs etc.


----------



## Guest

Nicky10 said:


> Square and looks like a wolf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they're not giant because all wolves are dane sized :crazy: but you can always breed for the size.


You know, and just for shits and giggles, compare the rear end of a norwegian Elkhound (or even a malamute) to the rear end of a timber wolf. There is absolutely no comparison. One has an entirely different structure than the other, and - shocker - different function. Hell, check out the shoulder layback on the three different dogs. Again, totally no comparison. You cant breed a dog with the bone structure of a malamute and have it magically turn in to the bone structure of a timber wolf in 5 generations. Youre just going to end up with a structural mess. Argh!


----------



## BessieDog

If this person lives with their brother, and someone 'turned off the computer' so lost the post - methinks this is a school kid with dreams they know nothing about. I think Simply Sardonic hit the nail on the head a few pages back. Someone's been watching too much 'Game of Thrones'.


----------



## BlueJay

Wow.
Wow to this whole thread...



SpWaMC said:


> As of this point, she's still considered to be a future breeding stock Dame. If that were to change due to health issues (she's going in this Tues. for another checkup)


I am impressed of how your regular vet can check for future health problems and generic issues at such a young age 



> she'd probably stick around here for some additional training and *then I'd find her a home elsewhere. *


Probably do the best thing for the poor little love and find her a proper pet home _now_, instead of pawning her off when you decide she isn't of use to you anymore.....

A dog you got (for free?) from a subpar breeder. Definitely a good idea to breed from her! 
You know... instead of researching and lines properly and getting a quality pup accordingly (hey, then you'd probably know more about the colour genetics, right?!)


----------



## Meezey

So what is this wolfydaneyhuskymalamutecubist dog being bred to do or did I miss that? What job? And why does it need to look like a wolf to do this job? Are they being bred for extras in the 3 little pigs, Little Red Ridinghood or American Werewolf films?


----------



## Guest

babycham2002 said:


> What's an LGD please?


Livestock guardian dog. From established breeds like great pyrenees to lesser known breeds like anatolians, to landraces like central asian shepherds etc. TONS of breeds fall under this category, all very excellent at the job of guarding livestock of all kinds from all sorts of predators including wolves and even cougars. Many will dual purpose as property and people guardians as well. OP would do well to research these breeds.


----------



## Nicky10

Timber wolves alongside a human 









Not grey wolves but the only ones I could find were of dead wolves. Hardly massive animals


----------



## Nicky10

Sweety said:


> Fantastic!
> 
> All of this has given me a real yen to breed Tazmanian Devil lookalikes.
> 
> Of course, I'm not going to do the obvious and begin with a couple of Devils. Oh no, I'm going to go all round the houses and breed about ten generations till I get something that tears round at breakneck speed, making vicious noises.
> 
> I'm going to start with my Jack Russell bitch and take it from there.
> 
> She's square you see, so everything will work out.


Just keep breeding jrts together and don't give them anything to do you'll soon have something that bounces off the walls and makes a lot of noise :tongue_smilie:. Although the real tasmanian devils are adorable, the pouch might be a bit tricky to breed in


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Is there such a thing as lycanthropy by proxy?


----------



## Firedog

I think really go for something different and try and breed a triangular shaped dog.


----------



## Guest

Meezey said:


> So what is this wolfydaneyhuskymalamutecubist dog being bred to do or did I miss that? What job? And why does it need to look like a wolf to do this job? Are they being bred for extras in the 3 little pigs, Little Red Ridinghood or American Werewolf films?





SpWaMC said:


> A homestead guardian, primarily. A few similar breeds with similar personalities to those I'm trying to cultivate include the Doberman Pinschers and Boerboels, both of which will likely be studded into my lines at 1/16th ratios at some point.


Why they need to look like a wolf and be square I couldnt tell you.


----------



## lostbear

Shoshannah said:


> I hope this may be helpful for anyone confused by this thread.
> 
> Wolf:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great Dane:


Aaaah! Now I see . . .


----------



## Rafa

Meezey said:


> So what is this wolfydaneyhuskymalamutecubist dog being bred to do or did I miss that? What job? And why does it need to look like a wolf to do this job? Are they being bred for extras in the 3 little pigs, Little Red Ridinghood or American Werewolf films?


Oh, I think I can answer that for you. (Smiles modestly).

It's probably being bred as a guarding breed to protect the OP from the screeching mob of outraged folk who have bought her sickly, bred from iffy parents, churned out by the dozen pups, who have all been neutered at three weeks old.

She's going to need all the help she can get.


----------



## Rafa

Nicky10 said:


> Just keep breeding jrts together and don't give them anything to do you'll soon have something that bounces off the walls and makes a lot of noise :tongue_smilie:. Although the real tasmanian devils are adorable, the pouch might be a bit tricky to breed in


Oh, don't worry about the pouch.

I'll just introduce Doberman into the mix. Apparently, that's the key to it all.


----------



## Nicky10

Just a thought but this person does know that danes and dobermanns naturally have floppy ears right? :001_unsure: Might be a problem with the whole wolfy thing.


----------



## Jenna500

Nicky10 said:


> Just keep breeding jrts together and don't give them anything to do you'll soon have something that bounces off the walls and makes a lot of noise :tongue_smilie:


I can give you a head start there, I've got one of those, she's a jrt x collie. You can have her for your breeding programme if you like - she's been to the vet and he says she's healthy ...


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

Firedog said:


> I think really go for something different and try and breed a triangular shaped dog.


Just repped you for that, hilarious


----------



## Firedog

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Just repped you for that, hilarious


Thank you.


----------



## Rafa

Jenna500 said:


> I can give you a head start there, I've got one of those, she's a jrt x collie. You can have her for your breeding programme if you like - she's been to the vet and he says she's healthy ...


Yeah, but is she square?


----------



## Guest

Have to say if it werent for the sad undercurrent of whats going to happen to this poor pup and the potential other puppies, this thread is hilariously entertaining.


----------



## Rafa

Nicky10 said:


> Just a thought but this person does know that danes and dobermanns naturally have floppy ears right? :001_unsure: Might be a problem with the whole wolfy thing.


But have you learned nothing from the wonderfully knowledgeable OP?

She said in an earlier posts that GSDs are not similar to wolves, mainly because of the ears.


----------



## lostbear

Meezey said:


> So what is this wolfydaneyhuskymalamutecubist dog being bred to do or did I miss that? What job? And why does it need to look like a wolf to do this job? Are they being bred for extras in the 3 little pigs, Little Red Ridinghood or American Werewolf films?


Stop picking on the OP! I am converted - their common sense, deep knowledge of canid-related matters (genetics, squarism, blackness etc) and their obvious concern for their puppies has impressed me no end.

I am really keen to purchase one of their new 'protodogs' as it sounds ideal for my own breeding programme. I am working on teacup great danes, (square, obviously) and any colour except not-black. They will be shaken, not stirred.

I have achieved a degree of success by crossing great danes (for greatdaneness) with harvest mice (for itsybistyteenyweenyness). I introduced 1/16th pygmy chimpanzee (for an affinity with teacups), a Rubik's cube (for cubicalness), and 1/32nd great white shark (I wanted something that would be fun to play with at the beach). I have had some limited success. The first generation crosses had the size, but unfortunately, many of them escaped down a crack in the floorboards and can be heard swinging round on spiders' webs - they are also a bugger if you need a wee during the night, because they tend to lurk around the toilet bowl and leap up and bite your bum. I re-crossed some of them to their great dane parent, and achieved a dog that could slobber so effectively that it could swim in its own drool. It is now generation 3, and my greatest success has been achieving not not-black. They are all black, probably from all of the gunk they roll in underneath the house.


----------



## Nicky10

Sweety said:


> But have you learned nothing from the wonderfully knowledgeable OP?
> 
> She said in an earlier posts that GSDs are not similar to wolves, mainly because of the ears.


Ah yes of course I forgot wolves don't have erect ears :crazy:. I thought that was just something domestication had done to dogs.


----------



## lostbear

Shoshannah said:


> Is there such a thing as lycanthropy by proxy?


There is now!


----------



## Jenna500

Sweety said:


> Yeah, but is she square?


No she's triangular, she's only got three legs ...


----------



## Firedog

I think the triangle idea is not bad actually. Can you image, three legs, one on each corner, imagine the time you would save on nail cutting and less paw prints on the floor.


----------



## lostbear

Jenna500 said:


> No she's triangular, she's only got three legs ...


Stoppit! I laughed so much I wet myself!


----------



## Nicky10

:thumbdown: I can't believe you want to breed illuminati dogs, after all you'd be creating a pyramid dog or something close to it. Do you want them to take over the world?


----------



## Guest

lostbear said:


> Stoppit! I laughed so much I wet myself!


Serves you right. im still wiping off my keyboard from your last post.


----------



## Firedog

Nicky10 said:


> :thumbdown: I can't believe you want to breed illuminati dogs, after all you'd be creating a pyramid dog or something close to it. Do you want them to take over the world?


Why not, pigeons are nearly there with their shifty beady eyes.


----------



## Guest

Nicky10 said:


> :thumbdown: I can't believe you want to breed illuminati dogs, after all you'd be creating a pyramid dog or something close to it. Do you want them to take over the world?


Can you breed for tripodness or would you have to introduce leg docking? Or would that be cropping? Is that ethical?


----------



## Nicky10

ouesi said:


> Can you breed for tripodness or would you have to introduce leg docking? Or would that be cropping? Is that ethical?


Clearly all you have to do is breed a tripod and it will all work out.



Firedog said:


> Why not, pigeons are nearly there with their shifty beady eyes.


No that's the ravens, have you never seen that one that can do like 7 puzzles in a sequence even when they put them out of order?


----------



## lostbear

Firedog said:


> I think the triangle idea is not bad actually. Can you image, three legs, one on each corner, imagine the time you would save on nail cutting and less paw prints on the floor.


So is the single leg at the front, directly below the chin and in the centre of the chest, or at the back, directly under the tail?

If at the back, how do the males lift their leg? Are they ergonomically designed to perform handstands (paw stands) whilst urinating, or do they keep falling over?

Perhaps the OP could suggest a breed of - er, something - that could be introduced into the genetic broth so that they can spray - spitting cobra, perhaps, but with the fangs at the back?


----------



## Rafa

lostbear said:


> Stop picking on the OP! I am converted - their common sense, deep knowledge of canid-related matters (genetics, squarism, blackness etc) and their obvious concern for their puppies has impressed me no end.
> 
> I am really keen to purchase one of their new 'protodogs' as it sounds ideal for my own breeding programme. I am working on teacup great danes, (square, obviously) and any colour except not-black. They will be shaken, not stirred.
> 
> I have achieved a degree of success by crossing great danes (for greatdaneness) with harvest mice (for itsybistyteenyweenyness). I introduced 1/16th pygmy chimpanzee (for an affinity with teacups), a Rubik's cube (for cubicalness), and 1/32nd great white shark (I wanted something that would be fun to play with at the beach). I have had some limited success. The first generation crosses had the size, but unfortunately, many of them escaped down a crack in the floorboards and can be heard swinging round on spiders' webs - they are also a bugger if you need a wee during the night, because they tend to lurk around the toilet bowl and leap up and bite your bum. I re-crossed some of them to their great dane parent, and achieved a dog that could slobber so effectively that it could swim in its own drool. It is now generation 3, and my greatest success has been achieving not not-black. They are all black, probably from all of the gunk they roll in underneath the house.


Hallelujah Sister!!

You've converted me to the doctrine of squarism too. The OP is surely the new Messiah in the World of dog breeding.

I'm loving the sound of your breeding programme too, but can I be picky? I'm not keen on the Chimpanzee in the mix. You do know they eat their own poop, don't you?


----------



## Jenna500

ouesi said:


> Can you breed for tripodness or would you have to introduce leg docking? Or would that be cropping? Is that ethical?


You could breed loads until you got a dog with one slightly shorter leg, and then continue to breed that leg shorter in subsequent generations. With lots of inbreeding you could do it in about 20 generations or so. Especially with your superior breeding knowledge


----------



## Firedog

The ravens where on Inside an Animals Mind with Chris Packham.....amazing.


----------



## lostbear

Firedog said:


> Why not, pigeons are nearly there with their shifty beady eyes.


They _have_ got shifty, beady eyes, haven't they. And there is something very sinister about the way they - STARE. Just - STARE.


----------



## Rafa

Jenna500 said:


> No she's triangular, she's only got three legs ...


Oh don't worry about that.

I'll just breed for a fourth leg. Good Heavens, I may even breed for a fifth leg!!

Just imagine how fast that dog could run. Put the racing greyhounds to shame, especially if it was square.


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> They _have_ got shifty, beady eyes, haven't they. And there is something very sinister about the way they - STARE. Just - STARE.


Terrifying is what they are .

If we're breeding fantasy animals I always wanted a griffin.

body, tail, and back legs of a lion; the head and wings of an eagle; and an eagle's talons as its front feet. 
Should be easy enough to produce. Maybe I should start with a few moggies.


----------



## Rafa

lostbear said:


> So is the single leg at the front, directly below the chin and in the centre of the chest, or at the back, directly under the tail?
> 
> If at the back, how do the males lift their leg? Are they ergonomically designed to perform handstands (paw stands) whilst urinating, or do they keep falling over?
> 
> Perhaps the OP could suggest a breed of - er, something - that could be introduced into the genetic broth so that they can spray - spitting cobra, perhaps, but with the fangs at the back?


I believe the single leg is situated in the side, so that the dog can swipe the legs from under other dogs, Ben Hur style.

You're welcome.

Perhaps the OP could confirm this for us though?


----------



## lostbear

Sweety said:


> Hallelujah Sister!!
> 
> You've converted me to the doctrine of squarism too. The OP is surely the new Messiah in the World of dog breeding.
> 
> I'm loving the sound of your breeding programme too, but can I be picky? I'm not keen on the Chimpanzee in the mix. *You do know they eat their own poop, don't you*?


I do now - I can tolerate that, it's the throwing it at you when you try to housetrain them that gets me! No - the chimpanzees were a mistake, I admit it.

If only I had had the intelligence and foresight of the OP, I would have chosen something equally friendly and with a similar passion for teacups. A dobermann, perhaps. Or a bishop. They drink a lot of tea, I believe. And sherry - they drink a lot of sherry.

(Lightbulb moment :idea::idea::idea:- a 'sherryglass' great dane! Now _there_ is an unexplored market !)


----------



## Meezey

Not sure anyone has told OP that someone has beat them too it  Tamaskan Dog....

Yay so job done, now you can just rehome the poor pup and I hope she gets a owner who sees her as a pet to love rather than a brood bitch....


----------



## Meezey

Teacup great dane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Nicky10

Meezey said:


> Teacup great dane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Well there are mini saint bernards, they're a complete mutt that maybe has a tiny amount of saint in them but it's the thought that counts


----------



## SpWaMC

Sweety said:


> I still would like to know why, if you're aiming to breed 'Wolf Like' dogs, you aim to begin by breeding a litter of purebred Great Danes?


I have two female Great Danes. They'll be paired with non-Great Danes. You didn't read the first page correctly, I'm afraid.



Sweety said:


> Wouldn't be anything to do with the money would it?


If I was just going to mill out puppies, why waste time and money on having them cleared by vets? Doesn't add up.



Nicky10 said:


> It can take more than 7 generations look at the history of breeds that are more recently developed, there are pedigrees for most of the silken windhounds and details on what it took for other breeds. Take a look at the project to produce korthal's griffons
> History of The Korthals Griffon


Indeed. It does stand to reason, however, that it'd take him quite a lot of breeding to achieve his goal; that being a dog which had virtually every favorable hunting instinct imaginable.

If my goal was to breed in the best traits of every breed mentioned, then I expect it'd take quite some time.



Nicky10 said:


> And he was starting with breeds that actually looked like what he wanted to produce. There are already plenty of homestead and flock guardians who can do the job just as well.


To my understanding, and I know some breeders disagree, it's easier to manipulate the exterior visage of a breed than it is the interior. This mans work is actually fairly ample evidence of this; as you said his foundation stock already resembled what the breed would eventually look like, yet it still took 600+ dogs to selectively alter their inherent characteristics.



Sweety said:


> A Doberman? How does that look anything like a wolf?


It doesn't. The appearance of the dog is least among my concerns; if you simply threw a few of the northern breeds into a field and only ever interacted with them to feed and water them, you'd come back and find that their mix-and-matched pups would quite resemble wolves (albeit, smaller).

It's breeding the correct personality which will require careful observation.



Sweety said:


> You know what I find remarkable?
> 
> You just happened to own a Dane dog and were given a Dane bitch pup and suddenly, as if by magic, you've realised that this Breed is the ideal foundation for your Wolf Alike breed.
> 
> How fortuitous!


I jotted out the specifics of this breed years ago, but I put it on the backburner as it was then the height of the recession (2008-2009). I've spent the time since then maintaining my business and now it's safe to say I'll be capable of maintaining this program.

I purchased the other Great Dane, who is now 11 months old, as a puppy as well. It's not really a spur-of-the-moment thing and in a year or so I'll start looking for adequate studs for her (the older dog, not the puppy).



ouesi said:


> Okay. You still haven't said that you're going to tell the breeder what you're doing. Reason #547 why I will never breed - sell a dog, dog changes hands ends up as breeding stock for a new breed or if not adopted out to a third home all of which without my knowledge. Aren't people grand?


I agreed with your initial pointer/question; it would, indeed, be nice to be told if ownership of one of my pups was changing and what the intent of that third party was. I'll tell you what, I'll get the breeders contact information from the previous owners and inform her tomorrow.



ouesi said:


> Medical records or published health testing results. A rabies certificate on file is not the same thing as a PennHip score published and easily searchable by pedigree. You do understand the difference yes?


I do, and her parents weren't hip-scored to my knowledge. The grandparent that there is medical files for died at 11 of bloat. As I said, thus far, she's still to be included... but I won't use her if there is something that could have far-reaching consequences.

She's going in for a check-up on Tues. and she'll be PennHIP scored in a few weeks/months.



Nicky10 said:


> Square and looks like a wolf


It certainly doesn't resemble a wolf. It might be mistaken for a wolf-dog, perhaps, but only by people who have no clue what they're looking at.



BlueJay said:


> I am impressed of how your regular vet can check for future health problems and generic issues at such a young age
> 
> Who said anything of the sort. I'm going in to make sure she is _currently_ still healthy.
> 
> 
> 
> BlueJay said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know... instead of researching and lines properly and getting a quality pup accordingly (hey, then you'd probably know more about the colour genetics, right?!)
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the theoretical genetics fine. The fact that half of you keep talking about color, as opposed to pattern, suggest that many of you didn't even read the initial post.
> 
> 
> 
> Nicky10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a thought but this person does know that danes and dobermanns naturally have floppy ears right? :001_unsure: Might be a problem with the whole wolfy thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are pictures of the puppy, with uncropped ears, attached to the first post.
> 
> Edit: It's also unlikely that the 6.25% of the genetics which come from either Dane or Doberman will overpower the genetic disposition of the other three (GSD, Siberian Huskies and Malamutes) for having upright ears.
> 
> I just skipped over pages 12-13, too much tom-foolery going on to waste time sifting through it. Let me know if anything worth responding to was mentioned.
Click to expand...


----------



## Nicky10

But he was using hprs, dogs that already carried out the work he wanted in his breeding programme. They looked the same because that's the right build for the job. He wasn't taking dogs that looked different and did different jobs and expecting them to turn out the way he wanted.


----------



## lostbear

Meezey said:


> Not sure anyone has told OP that someone has beat them too it  *Tamaskan Dog....*
> 
> Yay so job done, now you can just rehome the poor pup and I hope she gets a owner who sees her as a pet to love rather than a brood bitch....


Had to look this up - my word, it IS wolfy-looking - but sadly, not very square. In fact it looks really 'with-it' - positively 'hip' in fact.

Perhaps if they put a bit of doberman into the mix . . . that would certainly improve the ears.


----------



## Rafa

Oh, so you have two bitches you're going to breed from?

I'm going to ask you for the third time. To what breed of dog are you planning to mate them?

As for tomfoolery, it depends what your definition of that is.

I think you do need to read those posts .......... there is a vein of good sense running through them.


----------



## Meezey

lostbear said:


> Had to look this up - my word, it IS wolfy-looking - but sadly, not very square. In fact it looks really 'with-it' - positively 'hip' in fact.
> 
> Perhaps if they put a bit of doberman into the mix . . . that would certainly improve the ears.


Shame really as seemingly it excels at obedience, agility and work trails.... High drive too!!


----------



## Rafa

lostbear said:


> I do now - I can tolerate that, it's the throwing it at you when you try to housetrain them that gets me! No - the chimpanzees were a mistake, I admit it.
> 
> If only I had had the intelligence and foresight of the OP, I would have chosen something equally friendly and with a similar passion for teacups. A dobermann, perhaps. Or a bishop. They drink a lot of tea, I believe. And sherry - they drink a lot of sherry.
> 
> (Lightbulb moment :idea::idea::idea:- a 'sherryglass' great dane! Now _there_ is an unexplored market !)


Nope. Sorry to rain on your parade, but you're missing a fundamental 'must' here.

The protodog MUST be square. There is no room for movement there.

A sherry glass narrows in the middle, so any Sherryglass Great Dane would have to have a defined waist.

It just doesn't fit the bill.


----------



## Meezey

SpWaMC said:


> I purchased the other Great Dane, who is now 11 months old, as a puppy as well. It's not really a spur-of-the-moment thing and in a year or so I'll start looking for adequate studs for her (the older dog, not the puppy).
> 
> I agreed with your initial pointer/question; it would, indeed, be nice to be told if ownership of one of my pups was changing and what the intent of that third party was. I'll tell you what, I'll get the breeders contact information from the previous owners and inform her tomorrow.
> 
> I do, and her parents weren't hip-scored to my knowledge. The grandparent that there is medical files for died at 11 of bloat. As I said, thus far, she's still to be included... but I won't use her if there is something that could have far-reaching consequences.
> 
> She's going in for a check-up on Tues. and she'll be PennHIP scored in a few weeks/months.
> 
> .


Any respectable breeder with health tested studs wouldn't let them near your bitches, so highly unethical all round!


----------



## lostbear

SpWaMC said:


> .
> 
> I just skipped over pages 12-13, *too much tom-foolery going on to waste time sifting through it. Let me know if anything worth responding to was mentioned.*


Can you do the same regarding your own posts - i.e., let us know if anything worth responding to is mentioned?

Believe you me, there is nothing that has been posted here that is more ridiculous than your suggested breeding project.

I hope you are a troll, because if not, you are not only a fool but you are a dangerous fool.

(Now that's a thought - introduce 1/8th troll, and you will save on the cost of a kennel because the dog will happily live under the nearest bridge . . . )


----------



## lostbear

Sweety said:


> Nope. Sorry to rain on your parade, but you're missing a fundamental 'must' here.
> 
> The protodog MUST be square. There is no room for movement there.
> 
> A sherry glass narrows in the middle, so any Sherryglass Great Dane would have to have a defined waist.
> 
> It just doesn't fit the bill.


Ah well, back to the drawing board - that is square.


----------



## Guest

SpWaMC said:


> If my goal was to breed in the best traits of every breed mentioned, then I expect it'd take quite some time.


Ya think? 
Doesnt this clue you in to something? Anything?



SpWaMC said:


> I agreed with your initial pointer/question; it would, indeed, be nice to be told if ownership of one of my pups was changing and what the intent of that third party was. I'll tell you what, I'll get the breeders contact information from the previous owners and inform her tomorrow.


Aw... youd do that for little ol me? How selfless of you! 



SpWaMC said:


> I do, and her parents weren't hip-scored to my knowledge. The grandparent that there is medical files for died at 11 of bloat. As I said, thus far, she's still to be included... but I won't use her if there is something that could have far-reaching consequences.
> 
> She's going in for a check-up on Tues. and she'll be PennHIP scored in a few weeks/months.


And there it is. Totally blowing smoke up our asses. Youre going to get a puppy less than 6 months old hip scored eh? Okay then. I have some oceanfront property in Colorado for sale....


----------



## Rafa

lostbear said:


> Can you do the same regarding your own posts - i.e., let us know if anything worth responding to is mentioned?
> 
> Believe you me, there is nothing that has been posted here that is more ridiculous than your suggested breeding project.
> 
> I hope you are a troll, because if not, you are not only a fool but you are a dangerous fool.
> 
> (Now that's a thought - introduce 1/8th troll, and you will save on the cost of a kennel because the dog will happily live under the nearest bridge . . . )


And it will eat Billy Goats.

Think of the saving not having to buy kibble.

It's all making sense to me now.

Does anyone else hear a digging sound when reading the OP's posts? Like someone with a shovel who just doesn't know when to stop?

She's sounding more and more ridiculous with everything she comes out with.


----------



## Rafa

ouesi said:


> Ya think?
> Doesnt this clue you in to something? Anything?
> 
> Aw... youd do that for little ol me? How selfless of you!
> 
> And there it is. Totally blowing smoke up our asses. Youre going to get a puppy less than 6 months old hip scored eh? Okay then. I have some oceanfront property in Colorado for sale....


Oh, I'm so tempted by your Oceanfront Property, but I'm currently in escrow on a sprawling mansion in Monte Carlo ........... 

Shame.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

If as you say the grandfather died of bloat, then that is worrying, as I understand one big indicator of whether any given dog has a high bloat risk is whether any of its relatives experienced it...


This thread has me both laughing and weeping. Laughing, because it's brought out the superb wit of so many folk, and weeping at the thought of the OP's poor, poor dogs...


----------



## Nicky10

I have no issues with people wanting to create a new breed if they know what they're getting themselves into and are doing it right. This person doesn't seem to have a clue


----------



## SpWaMC

ouesi said:


> Ya think?
> Doesn't this clue you in to something? Anything?


Not especially. I'm not going to breed for the traits of every breed used.



ouesi said:


> And there it is. Totally blowing smoke up our asses. You're going to get a puppy less than 6 months old hip scored eh?


"PennHIP incorporates a new method for evaluating the integrity of the canine hip. It is accurate in puppies as young as 16 weeks of age. It has great potential to lower the frequency of CHD when used as a selection criterion."

Source: PennHIP Home

It's worth noting, to whomever suggested Tamaskan Dogs, that they're rated by their own registry as follows:

Trainability, 6/10
Watch Dog, 4/10
Guard Dog, 2/10

Not to mention they're not really a breed, even by loose standards. Their foundation stock was a bunch of mixes, who weren't uniformly mixed, and their distinct lines include drastically different compositions. It be like me breeding one Dane with a St. Bernard and the other Dane with a Chihuahua and calling all of the resulting pups part of the same breed. Nonsense.


----------



## Rafa

SpWaMC said:


> Not especially. I'm not going to breed for the traits of every breed used.
> 
> "PennHIP incorporates a new method for evaluating the integrity of the canine hip. It is accurate in puppies as young as 16 weeks of age. It has great potential to lower the frequency of CHD when used as a selection criterion."
> 
> Source: PennHIP Home


Have you ever heard the saying 'Know your Audience'?

Nobody here is impressed by your spiel and that is not because we're anti breeding. There are some very knowledgeable and reputable breeders on this forum. You are not one of them.

For Heaven's sake, stop talking and start listening. What you're planning is madness.

For the fourth time .......... What breed are you planning to use on your bitches?

Your reluctance to answer tells me you don't know.

Talk about empty vessels making most sound.

If you're not breeding for the traits of every breed you use, why are you planning to use those breeds?

You're talking nonsense and everyone can see it apart from you.


----------



## shadowmare

SpWaMC said:


> Perhaps you could name a few? Keeping in mind that the resemblance should extend beyond coat and coloration into size and shape.


Czechoslovakian Wolfdog :001_rolleyes:


----------



## Guest

SpWaMC said:


> Not especially. I'm not going to breed for the traits of every breed used.
> 
> "PennHIP incorporates a new method for evaluating the integrity of the canine hip. It is accurate in puppies as young as 16 weeks of age. It has great potential to lower the frequency of CHD when used as a selection criterion."
> 
> Source: PennHIP Home


Yep you can get prelims as early as 16 weeks. But youre talking a GIANT breed. I mean if you want to put your 16 week old under GA, send in the X-rays, only to have to repeat the process at 24 months, I suppose thats your prerogative....



SpWaMC said:


> It's worth noting, to whomever suggested Tamaskan Dogs, that they're rated by their own registry as follows:
> 
> Trainability, 6/10
> Watch Dog, 4/10
> Guard Dog, 2/10
> 
> Not to mention they're not really a breed, even by loose standards. Their foundation stock was a bunch of mixes, who weren't uniformly mixed, and their distinct lines include drastically different compositions. It be like me breeding one Dane with a St. Bernard and the other Dane with a Chihuahua and calling all of the resulting pups part of the same breed. Nonsense.


Oh I know, TOTALLY different than what youre suggesting. No comparison at all.... Not like youre taking some random, questionable pedigree dog and using it at your foundation stock or anything. Of randomly mixing totally unrelated dogs... No.. totally different.


----------



## Meezey

SpWaMC said:


> Not especially. I'm not going to breed for the traits of every breed used.
> 
> "PennHIP incorporates a new method for evaluating the integrity of the canine hip. It is accurate in puppies as young as 16 weeks of age. It has great potential to lower the frequency of CHD when used as a selection criterion."
> 
> Source: PennHIP Home
> 
> It's worth noting, to whomever suggested Tamaskan Dogs, that they're rated by their own registry as follows:
> 
> Trainability, 6/10
> Watch Dog, 4/10
> Guard Dog, 2/10
> 
> Not to mention they're not really a breed, even by loose standards. Their foundation stock was a bunch of mixes, who weren't uniformly mixed, and their distinct lines include drastically different compositions. It be like me breeding one Dane with a St. Bernard and the other Dane with a Chihuahua and calling all of the resulting pups part of the same breed. Nonsense.


Yet they have been recognised by the American Rare breeds Association and the Kennel Club USA............ And the US club say they are highly trainable!! 
According to the TDR standard "The Tamaskan Dog is friendly and affectionate. He should not appear aggressive or overly reserved towards people or other dogs. His high intelligence and eagerness to please make him versatile in his uses as a working dog and loyal companion...

Hmmmmm their idea is nonsense you say........


----------



## SpWaMC

Sweety said:


> There are some very knowledgeable and reputable breeders on this forum.


I don't doubt it, yet I'm not seeking their blessings or their approvals. This thread posed a very basic question, which was only half-answer by a single person -- everything else is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.



Sweety said:


> For the fourth time .......... What breed are you planning to use on your bitches?


Alaskan Malamutes.


----------



## SpWaMC

ouesi said:


> Yep you can get prelims as early as 16 weeks. But youre talking a GIANT breed. I mean if you want to put your 16 week old under GA, send in the X-rays, only to have to repeat the process at 24 months, I suppose thats your prerogative....


It is my prerogative, indeed. I'll use the information to better gauge if she'll be a part of the foundation stock.



ouesi said:


> Oh I know, TOTALLY different than what youre suggesting. No comparison at all.... Not like youre taking some random, questionable pedigree dog and using it at your foundation stock or anything. Of randomly mixing totally unrelated dogs... No.. totally different.


The difference is, they're taking something that might be half-Siberian Husky, half-German Shepherd and calling it the same breed as something that is quarter-Husky, quarter-Malamute, half-Greenland Dog.

Ideally, all of my dogs will be equally split as far as breed-composition goes.


----------



## SpWaMC

Meezey said:


> According to the TDR standard "The Tamaskan Dog is friendly and affectionate. He should not appear aggressive or overly reserved towards people or other dogs. His high intelligence and eagerness to please make him versatile in his uses as a working dog and loyal companion...
> 
> Hmmmmm their idea is nonsense you say........


Wonderful. Now sojourn back to that webpage and find the summary of their temperment, where is states, "Tamaskan tend to be extremely friendly and do well with adults and children of all ages. *This leads them to not making a good guard dog* unless licking someone to death is the idea you have for protection."


----------



## Meezey

SpWaMC said:


> It is my prerogative, indeed. I'll use the information to better gauge if she'll be a part of the foundation stock.
> 
> The difference is, they're taking something that might be half-Siberian Husky, half-German Shepherd and calling it the same breed as something that is quarter-Husky, quarter-Malamute, half-Greenland Dog.
> 
> Ideally, all of my dogs will be equally split as far as breed-composition goes.


It is a recognised breed, hence they are breeding to a standard they no longer use crosses no longer F1.. So again they have a standard they are recognised


----------



## Guest

SpWaMC said:


> I don't doubt it, yet I'm not seeking their blessings or their approvals. This thread posed a very basic question, which was only half-answer by a single person -- everything else is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.


Fully answered:



> SpWaMC said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...one of the newer additions to my pack (a goofy, 12-week old girl named Elsa) has me a bit concerned because of her coat coloration. She's predominantly white.
> 
> I personally can't tell if she's simply a very white-factored piebald or a very white-factored Harlequin (and, therefore, Merle). *Is there really any definitive way to figure this out without genetic testing?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ouesi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Id say piebald but it would take genetic testing to be sure, which you should do anyway IMHO.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ouesi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The phenotype is easy to discern. Piebald is any dog of any breed that has 50% or more of white. Simple. The piebald gene and the merle gene are not mutually exclusive either. Color genetics is above my pay grade, but all the confusion youre having is easily explained in a basic understanding of color genetics.
> This is a great site that explains color genetics in danes. Its also a good site to read up on ethical breeding practices.
> Chroma-Linx
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Everything else is very relevant to a general discussion on breeding and creating new breeds. An area in which we could all stand to continue our education. Some of us more than others....


----------



## Meezey

SpWaMC said:


> Wonderful. Now sojourn back to that webpage and find the summary of their temperment, where is states, "Tamaskan tend to be extremely friendly and do well with adults and children of all ages. *This leads them to not making a good guard dog* unless licking someone to death is the idea you have for protection."


Well see sorted I think people such as yourself shouldn't be allowed guardian breed in any shape or form the Danes included, so the above breed is ideal, only protection needed is you from yourself and those dogs from you!


----------



## SpWaMC

Meezey said:


> It is a recognised breed, hence they are breeding to a standard they no longer use crosses no longer F1.. So again they have a standard they are recognised


If they're not withholding vast amounts of information, then there are currently only ten registered F2's and five registered F3's.



WeedySeaDragon said:


> You do realise that genetics just don't work like that, right?
> 
> They might be the same with regards to what breeds they have at which points in their ancestry but with such a random mess of breeds in there you'll be ending up with vastly different puppies even within the same litter depending on which genes they inherit from which parents.


That's why with each pairing, you select for things you're looking for. I didn't mean to suggest that because a dog was 50% Dane, 50% [Insert Breed] that all of their progeny would look identical. You simply select those who harbor traits you're looking for and re-home the rest.



ouesi said:


> Fully answered


The question was is there a way to discern between Piebald and Harlequin without genetics testing. You stated that they weren't mutually exclusive to each other; great, but didn't answer my question.

I understand that it's possible for a dog to be both Piebald and Harlequin, I was trying to figure out if there was a way to tell, point-blank, just by looking at them which of the two they were or weren't. It appears not.


----------



## Guest

SpWaMC said:


> The question was is there a way to discern between Piebald and Harlequin without genetics testing. You stated that they weren't mutually exclusive to each other; great, but didn't answer my question.
> 
> I understand that it's possible for a dog to be both Piebald and Harlequin, I was trying to figure out if there was a way to tell, point-blank, just by looking at them which of the two they were or weren't. It appears not.


I did answer. Piebald means that the dog is 50% white or more.
Merle (all Harlequins are merles) is always expressed and all merle dogs will have a patch of merle somewhere.
You can have both merle and piebald coloring on the same dog.

For the third time, read the chromadane site, all this information and then some is on there.


----------



## Nicky10

A properly trained protection dog isn't the one that goes mad at everyone who walks past, that's just a liability waiting to happen. They're extensively trained and socialised and under control. After all what good is a weapon, for want of a better word ideally you'd never use one to take someone down, if you can't control it.

I wouldn't be messing with merle genes unless I was sure the other dog didn't have it. Double merles are just horrific


----------



## Katherna

Meezey said:


> Teacup great dane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Found one :biggrin5:


----------



## Meezey

What previous experience do you have with working breeds? You are developing a new guardian breed what is wrong with the 100's of breeds out there already? What does a look have to do with a dogs ability to work I wonder why people think it's perfectly okay to use dogs anyway they chose with no regard for their long term welfare or health it sickens me how selfish some people are!!


----------



## Meezey

Katherna said:


> Found one :biggrin5:


Brilliant


----------



## Guest

Meezey said:


> What previous experience do you have with working breeds? You are developing a new guardian breed *what is wrong with the 100's of breeds out there already?* What does a look have to do with a dogs ability to work I wonder why people think it's perfectly okay to use dogs anyway they chose with no regard for their long term welfare or health it sickens me how selfish some people are!!


Or all the LGD breeds out there?


----------



## Guest

The bottom line is, if you want to start a new breed, you have to start with a foundation of superior genetics. No breeder who has spent a lifetime developing a line of healthy, temperamentally sound, superbly functional dogs is going to let someone like the OP near their stock with a 10 foot pole. Which means people like the OP either have to spend years working on building those relationships and some credibility within their chosen breeds, or they have to start from scratch with whatever dogs they get their hands on.

But when you start with whatever dogs you can get your hands on, youre doomed from the first pairing. If you dont have the genetic material to begin with, its not going to magically appear out of the ether with subsequent matings. You can add sugar and milk to dog poop all day long, in whatever different combinations you like, but youre still not going to turn the dog poop in to chocolate. Same idea with the OP wanting to start a new line of dogs with some random piebald dog from a local BYB.


----------



## SpWaMC

Meezey said:


> What previous experience do you have with working breeds?


I've lived around them my whole life, as far as whelping them... not much; my neighbors bred their farmdogs twice when I was young, which I was present for.



Meezey said:


> You are developing a new guardian breed what is wrong with the 100's of breeds out there already?


There isn't anything wrong with them; I simply have no interest in breeding and propagating dogs which I don't find tasteful.



Meezey said:


> I wonder why people think it's perfectly okay to use dogs anyway they chose with no regard for their long term welfare or health it sickens me how selfish some people are!!


It's interesting because this same argument has been aimed at breeders, generally. Your disapproval is based upon falsities; a common one being that "breeding pure" is actually beneficial to the long-term health of the dogs.


----------



## Nicky10

I was wondering when the denouncing of purebreds while breeding to standardise a breed, aka breeding pure, would happen.


----------



## Meezey

SpWaMC said:


> I've lived around them my whole life, as far as whelping them... not much; my neighbors bred their farmdogs twice when I was young, which I was present for.
> 
> There isn't anything wrong with them; I simply have no interest in breeding and propagating dogs which I don't find tasteful.
> 
> It's interesting because this same argument has been aimed at breeders, generally. Your disapproval is based upon falsities; a common one being that "breeding pure" is actually beneficial to the long-term health of the dogs.


Never aimed that argument at any ethical breeder in my life! For the second time today cross breeders are NOT healthier than pedigrees, are you planning to heart, eye, hip, thyroid test your Dane and use only heart, eye, hip scored and tested Malamutes both having been temperament tested ( you will be hard pushed to find a breeder who's invested in his stud to allow it to be used on a bitch from a byb now owned by a byb) so you risk pups inheriting all or some issues from one or both parents given the health of the other breeds you plan to use, lot of health tests there!! You strike me as someone who wouldn't care less that they could produce pups in to life long suffering considering this poor girls start.

So no you don't have personal hands on experience!!!!


----------



## lorilu

After reading through this entire thread this is another question that has been asked a few times that the OP has not answered. 

What is going to happen to all those dogs that are ..for want of a better word...by-products of this "program". Based on the plans of the OP, it seems there will be hundreds. It makes me sick to think of all those dogs. Gawd I hate puppy mills. Loathe them.

There's been a video going around of someone videoing a young woman throwing a bucket of new live puppies, one by one, into an icy river. Perhaps that is what our brilliant budding geneticist is planning.


----------



## SpWaMC

Nicky10 said:


> I was wondering when the denouncing of purebreds while breeding to standardise a breed, aka breeding pure, would happen.


I'm not denouncing them. I'm just informing you that telling somebody you're only interest is the health and wellness of dogs, generally, and then to turn around and support strict breeding is very hypocritical -- because, oftentimes, a purebred dog isn't as healthy as it could've been if they'd crossed it.

This is not the same thing as saying that all mixed breeds are healthier than all pure breeds, it'd still require informed breeding.



lorilu said:


> After reading through this entire thread this is another question that has been asked a few times that the OP has not answered.
> 
> What is going to happen to all those dogs that are ..for want of a better word...by-products of this "program". Based on the plans of the OP, it seems there will be hundreds. It makes me sick to think of all those dogs. Gawd I hate puppy mills. Loathe them.
> 
> There's been a video going around of someone videoing a young woman throwing a bucket of new live puppies, one by one, into an icy river. Perhaps that is what our brilliant budding geneticist is planning.


I did answer it, directly. So it would seem you didn't read quite as much as you've claimed. :001_rolleyes:


----------



## Nicky10

While there are a few breeds that can possibly only be fixed by crossbreeding, the norwegian lundehund comes to mind almost all of the breed has digestive system problems, most purebreds are healthy. There are some breeds that are a wreck and outcrossing could possibly help peke to tibetan spaniel maybe, but they're the minority. Crossing a lab to a gsd isn't going to help either breeds hips or for a more ridiculous cross cavalier to boxer to help improve heart issues.


----------



## Guest

SpWaMC said:


> I'm not denouncing them. I'm just informing you that telling somebody you're only interest is the health and wellness of dogs, generally, and then to turn around and support strict breeding is very hypocritical -- because, oftentimes, a purebred dog isn't as healthy as it could've been if they'd crossed it.


Lets not forget that ETHICAL breeding is not just about producing healthy dogs. Its also about being responsible for the lives you create.


----------



## shadowmare

Can I just ask why you're using two bitches with dodgy genetics as a base for your breeding program? Surely if you are seriously thinking to kick start this program of creating the ultimate wolf-dog you would use dogs from the best kennel with the best lines? :confused1: I mean... If I will ever start breeding I would look for my first breeding bitch from good responsible and very experienced breeders.


----------



## lorilu

SpWaMC said:


> I did answer it, directly. So it would seem you didn't read quite as much as you've claimed. :001_rolleyes:


Since I missed it, why not answer it again, please. What are you going to do with hundreds of unwanted puppies?


----------



## lostbear

SpWaMC said:


> Not especially. I'm not going to breed for the traits of every breed used.
> 
> "PennHIP incorporates a new method for evaluating the integrity of the canine hip. It is accurate in puppies as young as 16 weeks of age. It has great potential to lower the frequency of CHD when used as a selection criterion."
> 
> Source: PennHIP Home
> 
> It's worth noting, to whomever suggested Tamaskan Dogs, that they're rated by their own registry as follows:
> 
> Trainability, 6/10
> Watch Dog, 4/10
> Guard Dog, 2/10
> *
> Not to mention they're not really a breed, even by loose standards.*
> 
> Oh! The irony!
> 
> Their foundation stock was* a bunch of mixes, who weren't uniformly mixed, and their distinct lines include drastically different compositions.*
> 
> That choking sound is me stuffing a pillow into my mouth . . .
> 
> 
> It be like me breeding one Dane with a St. Bernard and the other Dane with a Chihuahua and calling all of the resulting pups part of the same breed. *Nonsense.*


You said it yourself.


----------



## lostbear

SpWaMC said:


> Wonderful. Now sojourn back to that webpage and find the summary of their temperment, where is states, "Tamaskan tend to be extremely friendly and do well with adults and children of all ages. *This leads them to not making a good guard dog* unless licking someone to death is the idea you have for protection."


Can they bark? If they get excited and bark, they will act as guards.

Criteria for guard dogs seem to be different here in the UK. We like a dog that makes a lot of noise - doesn't even have to look intimidating most of the time - for our guarding breeds. What we want is for any intruder to realise that he has "set the dog off" and that the whole house will be awake, if only to "shut the bloody dog up". Intruder then leaves toot sweet.

In the US (forgive me if I am wrong) you seem to want a dog which will silently stalk and attack an intruder, tearing him limb from limb and leaving his eviscerated corpse on the doorstep as a warning to others. You'll not get a great dane to do this.

May I suggest a honey badger/wolverine cross?


----------



## lostbear

SpWaMC said:


> That's why with each pairing, you select for things you're looking for. I didn't mean to suggest that because a dog was 50% Dane, 50% [Insert Breed] that all of their progeny would look identical.* You simply select those who harbor traits you're looking for *and re-home the rest.
> 
> You do know that any animal can "harbour traits" that are not visually apparent, don't you? And that those can appear without warning umpteen generations down the line? This is why breeding true to type is such a complicated affair,
> 
> And not all traits, desirable or undesirable, are physical ones. You do not know what you are breeding in. A characteristic which remains recessive within a breed might become horribly dominant when you start mucking about with them. Not all crossbreeds are healthy, as regards either physical health or temperament, and you are talking about dogs with the capacity to kill someone if they have a mind to.
> 
> The question was is there a way to discern between Piebald and Harlequin without genetics testing. You stated that they weren't mutually exclusive to each other; great, but didn't answer my question.
> 
> I understand that it's possible for a dog to be both Piebald and Harlequin, I was trying to figure out if there was a way to tell, point-blank, just by looking at them which of the two they were or weren't. *It appears not.*


And there is your answer.


----------



## lostbear

Katherna said:


> Found one :biggrin5:


@rses! And it is both triangular (when sitting) and square! Beaten to my dream!!!

Never mind - the sherry-glass dane will be my great achievement - my gift to the world. If it means re-designing sherry classes to accommodate a square dog, then so be it.

Now, you must excuse me - I must send my flying monkeys out to collect a variety of glassware for my sherry glass breeding programme, and when I have achieved that, I will take the danes from there.

Fly, my pretties! Fly!


----------



## lostbear

ouesi said:


> The bottom line is, if you want to start a new breed, you have to start with a foundation of superior genetics. No breeder who has spent a lifetime developing a line of healthy, temperamentally sound, superbly functional dogs is going to let someone like the OP near their stock with a 10 foot pole. Which means people like the OP either have to spend years working on building those relationships and some credibility within their chosen breeds, or they have to start from scratch with whatever dogs they get their hands on.
> 
> But when you start with whatever dogs you can get your hands on, youre doomed from the first pairing. If you dont have the genetic material to begin with, its not going to magically appear out of the ether with subsequent matings. *You can add sugar and milk to dog poop all day long, in whatever different combinations you like, but youre still not going to turn the dog poop in to chocolate.* Same idea with the OP wanting to start a new line of dogs with some random piebald dog from a local BYB.


Oh - that was a waste of time, then.


----------



## lostbear

Nicky10 said:


> I was wondering when the denouncing of purebreds while breeding to standardise a breed, aka breeding pure, would happen.


I am going to leap at this opportunity to invoke "Godwin's Law" and mention Hitler and his dog, Blondi, before anyone beats me to it!


----------



## lostbear

SpWaMC said:


> I'm not denouncing them. I'm just informing you that telling somebody you're only interest is the health and wellness of dogs, generally, and then to turn around and support strict breeding is very hypocritical -- because, oftentimes, a purebred dog isn't as healthy as it could've been if they'd crossed it.
> 
> This is not the same thing as saying that all mixed breeds are healthier than all pure breeds, it'd still require informed breeding.
> 
> *I did answer it, directly.* So it would seem you didn't read quite as much as you've claimed. :001_rolleyes:


From your answer, you are going to sell them on (making dawn raids on their new homes to ensure that they have been neutered, and seizing them if they have not) or allow them to roam the vast pastures of your property, presumably killing their own food (e.g. deer, coyotes, delivery men) because you said you can afford to feed 20 or so, but the others will apparently have to fend for themselves in these idyllic dog-Eden conditions. I hope that you are neutering them at weaning age, too, as even if you do, you are going to end up with a pack of killer - er, _things_ - living in an uncontrolled and feral state.


----------



## lostbear

ouesi said:


> Lets not forget that ETHICAL breeding is not just about producing healthy dogs. Its also about being responsible for the lives you create.


Hear, hear!


----------



## lostbear

shadowmare said:


> Can I just ask why you're using two bitches with dodgy genetics as a base for your breeding program? Surely if you are seriously thinking to kick start this program of creating the ultimate wolf-dog you would use dogs from the best kennel with the best lines? :confused1: I mean... If I will ever start breeding I would look for my first breeding bitch from good responsible and very experienced breeders.


Look - OP knows what she is doing.


----------



## Pupcakes

ouesi said:


> You can add sugar and milk to dog poop all day long, in whatever different combinations you like, but youre still not going to turn the dog poop in to chocolate.


Oh great! _*NOW*_ you tell me!

LOL!


----------



## SusieRainbow

Katherna said:


> Found one :biggrin5:


A non-moulting, hypo-allergenic , square(ish) one - you'd get thousands for them !


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

lorilu said:


> Since I missed it, why not answer it again, please. What are you going to do with hundreds of unwanted puppies?


The OP has said she/he will '*just rehome the rest'.*

Yeah, really the attitude of an ethical and caring breeder........NOT.

LOSTBEAR:

Just tried to rep you again but system won't let me, but your posts have me almost crying with laughter x


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Nicky10 said:


> :thumbdown: I can't believe you want to breed illuminati dogs, after all you'd be creating a pyramid dog or something close to it. Do you want them to take over the world?


Shhhhhhhh!!! That's MY breeding plan, only now I've actually expanded my plans, due to someone else (lostbear, ehem) mentioning world domination, so I'm now heading towards intergalactic domination. Albeit slowly as I'm sort of scuppering my plans by only breeding on from fully health tested pedigree dogs of good quality, if only I could lower my standards!



SpWaMC said:


> I have two female Great Danes. They'll be paired with non-Great Danes. You didn't read the first page correctly, I'm afraid.
> 
> If I was just going to mill out puppies, why waste time and money on having them cleared by vets? Doesn't add up.
> 
> Indeed. It does stand to reason, however, that it'd take him quite a lot of breeding to achieve his goal; that being a dog which had virtually every favorable hunting instinct imaginable.
> 
> If my goal was to breed in the best traits of every breed mentioned, then I expect it'd take quite some time.
> 
> To my understanding, and I know some breeders disagree, it's easier to manipulate the exterior visage of a breed than it is the interior. This mans work is actually fairly ample evidence of this; as you said his foundation stock already resembled what the breed would eventually look like, yet it still took 600+ dogs to selectively alter their inherent characteristics.
> 
> It doesn't. The appearance of the dog is least among my concerns; if you simply threw a few of the northern breeds into a field and only ever interacted with them to feed and water them, you'd come back and find that their mix-and-matched pups would quite resemble wolves (albeit, smaller).
> 
> It's breeding the correct personality which will require careful observation.
> 
> I jotted out the specifics of this breed years ago, but I put it on the backburner as it was then the height of the recession (2008-2009). I've spent the time since then maintaining my business and now it's safe to say I'll be capable of maintaining this program.
> 
> I purchased the other Great Dane, who is now 11 months old, as a puppy as well. It's not really a spur-of-the-moment thing and in a year or so I'll start looking for adequate studs for her (the older dog, not the puppy).
> 
> I agreed with your initial pointer/question; it would, indeed, be nice to be told if ownership of one of my pups was changing and what the intent of that third party was. I'll tell you what, I'll get the breeders contact information from the previous owners and inform her tomorrow.
> 
> I do, and her parents weren't hip-scored to my knowledge. The grandparent that there is medical files for died at 11 of bloat. As I said, thus far, she's still to be included... but I won't use her if there is something that could have far-reaching consequences.
> 
> She's going in for a check-up on Tues. and she'll be PennHIP scored in a few weeks/months.
> 
> It certainly doesn't resemble a wolf. It might be mistaken for a wolf-dog, perhaps, but only by people who have no clue what they're looking at.
> 
> Who said anything of the sort. I'm going in to make sure she is _currently_ still healthy.
> 
> I understand the theoretical genetics fine. The fact that half of you keep talking about color, as opposed to pattern, suggest that many of you didn't even read the initial post.
> 
> There are pictures of the puppy, with uncropped ears, attached to the first post.
> 
> Edit: It's also unlikely that the 6.25% of the genetics which come from either Dane or Doberman will overpower the genetic disposition of the other three (GSD, Siberian Huskies and Malamutes) for having upright ears.
> 
> I just skipped over pages 12-13, too much tom-foolery going on to waste time sifting through it. Let me know if anything worth responding to was mentioned.
> 
> I've lived around them my whole life, as far as whelping them... not much; my neighbors bred their farmdogs twice when I was young, which I was present for.
> 
> There isn't anything wrong with them; I simply have no interest in breeding and propagating dogs which I don't find tasteful.
> 
> It's interesting because this same argument has been aimed at breeders, generally. Your disapproval is based upon falsities; a common one being that "breeding pure" is actually beneficial to the long-term health of the dogs.





SpWaMC said:


> I'm not denouncing them. I'm just informing you that telling somebody you're only interest is the health and wellness of dogs, generally, and then to turn around and support strict breeding is very hypocritical -- because, oftentimes, a purebred dog isn't as healthy as it could've been if they'd crossed it.
> 
> This is not the same thing as saying that all mixed breeds are healthier than all pure breeds, it'd still require informed breeding.
> 
> I did answer it, directly. So it would seem you didn't read quite as much as you've claimed. :001_rolleyes:


Oh, there we go, someone already has!!

So what a waste of time it is, breeding on from dogs that we know a full history for, and they have excellent temperament and health! I'll tell that to my bitch with a full set of perfect health test results, since she's obviously not worthwhile breeding on from, and is probably not square enough. I'll also tell her daughter, who is two, and I will do actual real health tests for rather than a quick check up at the vet, before I possibly breed on from her, using a stud dog with actual known heritage, producing good quality, healthy pups, and he's also had some of those real health tests, you know, the ones that cost lots of money.

I really hope this is a kid with nothing better to do than attempt a wind up on a forum, but I sadly think they believe their own shite.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

Waaaay ahead of y'all.


I am already working on plans to populate another planet with square shaped, piebald proto-dogs that will look remarkably like Great Danes BUT they will behave more like wolves


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Waaaay ahead of y'all.
> 
> I am already working on plans to populate another planet with square shaped, piebald proto-dogs that will look remarkably like Great Danes BUT they will behave more like wolves


Uhuh, you do know square shaped is so passe, personally, I'm going for dodecahedron 

Edited to add, in the OP's case, that would be Doh-decahedron.


----------



## lorilu

lostbear said:


> <snip>
> In the US (forgive me if I am wrong) you seem to want a dog which will silently stalk and attack an intruder, tearing him limb from limb and leaving his eviscerated corpse on the doorstep as a warning to others. You'll not get a great dane to do this.
> 
> May I suggest a honey badger/wolverine cross?


Oh dear please don't assume that this person represents the attitude of the USA...in anything. 


Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> The OP has said she/he will '*just rehome the rest'.*
> 
> Yeah, really the attitude of an ethical and caring breeder........NOT.


Oh yes, I remember seeing that now. I wanted a bit more detail. Rehome them where? Unethical pet shops is my guess.


----------



## Guest

SpWaMC said:


> I'm not denouncing them. I'm just informing you that telling somebody you're only interest is the health and wellness of dogs, generally, and then to turn around and support strict breeding is very hypocritical -- because, oftentimes, a purebred dog isn't as healthy as it could've been if they'd crossed it.


Speaking of being hypocritical, do you realize the hypocrisy (and contradictions) in your own statements in this thread?



SpWaMC said:


> It's interesting because this same argument has been aimed at breeders, generally. Your disapproval is based upon falsities; a common one being that "breeding pure" is actually beneficial to the long-term health of the dogs.





SpWaMC said:


> The difference is, they're taking something that might be half-Siberian Husky, half-German Shepherd and calling it the same breed as something that is quarter-Husky, quarter-Malamute, half-Greenland Dog.
> 
> Ideally, all of my dogs will be equally split as far as breed-composition goes.





SpWaMC said:


> That's why with each pairing, you select for things you're looking for. I didn't mean to suggest that because a dog was 50% Dane, 50% [Insert Breed] that all of their progeny would look identical. You simply select those who harbor traits you're looking for and re-home the rest.


And BTW...


SpWaMC said:


> I've lived around them my whole life, as far as whelping them... not much; my neighbors bred their farmdogs twice when I was young, which I was present for.


Total ignorance. Ive been around cars my whole life, doesnt mean I know how they work or that Im capable of building one. 
And a kid being present for a whelping or two means youre prepared to breed and whelp your own litter(s)?!


----------



## tabulahrasa

SpWaMC said:


> Not especially. I'm not going to breed for the traits of every breed used.
> 
> "*PennHIP incorporates a new method for evaluating the integrity of the canine hip. It is accurate in puppies as young as 16 weeks of age. It has great potential to lower the frequency of CHD when used as a selection criterion.*"
> 
> Source: PennHIP Home
> 
> It's worth noting, to whomever suggested Tamaskan Dogs, that they're rated by their own registry as follows:
> 
> Trainability, 6/10
> Watch Dog, 4/10
> Guard Dog, 2/10
> 
> Not to mention they're not really a breed, even by loose standards. Their foundation stock was a bunch of mixes, who weren't uniformly mixed, and their distinct lines include drastically different compositions. It be like me breeding one Dane with a St. Bernard and the other Dane with a Chihuahua and calling all of the resulting pups part of the same breed. Nonsense.


What on earth is the point of that?

I've got x-rays of my Rottie's hips at 16 weeks (so a heck of a lot smaller than a great dane) and they're mostly of fuzzy growth plates...all the two vets at my practice and the orthopedic specialist could say about them was that there was nothing obviously wrong with them yet.

Even at 13 months (his x-rays were looking for issues for a reason not to hip score them) you could see a better shape, but still a fair amount of just growth plates and scope for things to change for the worse.

Why put a puppy through a GA for a rough guess that's about as useful as an experienced vet manipulating her legs a bit and watching her move?

I'm not even touching the rest of the thread as I think it's been pretty well covered by others - but putting a puppy through a GA for no good reason just seems cruel.


----------



## simplysardonic

SpWaMC said:


> I don't doubt it, yet I'm not seeking their blessings or their approvals. This thread posed a very basic question, which was only half-answer by a single person -- everything else is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Alaskan Malamutes.


The obvious choice, used as guarding breeds the world over 



SpWaMC said:


> There isn't anything wrong with them; I simply have no interest in breeding and propagating dogs which I don't find tasteful.


Tasteful? :sosp:

As in 'knows their Liberty from their Happy Shopper' tasteful, or 'matches the decor' tasteful?


----------



## Rafa

Hello OP.

Just to sum up then, you're planning to breed mongrels from a bitch which came to you by chance, bred by a backyard breeder.

What do you think that makes you?

I've tried to be impressed by all the statistics and facts you've been spouting, but as I suspect that you've Googled most of it, I'm struggling to take any of it seriously.

Why didn't you mention at the outset that a neighbour of yours once bred a couple of litters?

I mean, that throws a whole different light on things - NOT. Don't be so foolish or arrogant as to believe that makes you experienced on any level.

Bottom line, you're going to mate an Alaskan Malamute to a Great Dane and produce a litter of crossbreed pups.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I'm just wondering if it's coincidence the OP's name spells Spam WC?


----------



## newfiesmum

simplysardonic said:


> The obvious choice, used as guarding breeds the world over
> 
> Tasteful? :sosp:
> 
> As in 'knows their Liberty from their Happy Shopper' tasteful, or 'matches the decor' tasteful?


I wanted to rep you for that, but the system won't let me for some weird reason. I think the alusion might be lost on an American though. Perhaps, substitute Liberty with Bloomingdales and Happy Shopper with Seven Eleven?


----------



## simplysardonic

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm just wondering if it's coincidence the OP's name spells Spam WC?


You noticed it too :eek6: somehow it adds to the Pythonesque undertones of the entire thread


----------



## Rafa

I like Spam.

If you fry it with some tomatoes and put it on a butty with lots of butter, it's really good.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Sweety said:


> I like Spam.
> 
> If you fry it with some tomatoes and put it on a butty with lots of butter, it's really good.


I like Spam fried and served with bubble and squeak with tomato sauce


----------



## Tails and Trails

I always have to wonder at the God complex of people that want to create new breeds


----------



## Rafa

Happy Paws said:


> I like Spam fried and served with bubble and squeak with tomato sauce


Yum. Wonder if my corner shop's open?  x


----------



## Wolfsbane

I found this topic trough a google search and wanted to respond to some parts about the Tamaskan. Hope that's ok :smile5:
I'm a Tamaskan owner from the Netherlands.



SpWaMC said:


> Not to mention they're not really a breed, even by loose standards. Their foundation stock was a bunch of mixes, who weren't uniformly mixed, and their distinct lines include drastically different compositions. It be like me breeding one Dane with a St. Bernard and the other Dane with a Chihuahua and calling all of the resulting pups part of the same breed. Nonsense.


The Tamaskan doesn't breed true to type yet, and indeed our foundation stock exists out of all kinds of breeds/mixes. We need to start somewhere, and currently we are still working on building a large, genetically diverse and healthy, base.



Meezey said:


> Yet they have been recognised by the American Rare breeds Association and the Kennel Club USA............ And the US club say they are highly trainable!!
> According to the TDR standard "The Tamaskan Dog is friendly and affectionate. He should not appear aggressive or overly reserved towards people or other dogs. His high intelligence and eagerness to please make him versatile in his uses as a working dog and loyal companion...
> 
> Hmmmmm their idea is nonsense you say........


The Tamaskan has indeed recently been accepted by ARBA. I wouldn't say they are as trainable as some breeds, they lack some 'will-to-please' (typical for shepherds for example), but most are highly food motivated and will do well with basic obedience training and several working activities/sports (like agilty, tracking, sledding).



SpWaMC said:


> The difference is, they're taking something that might be half-Siberian Husky, half-German Shepherd and calling it the same breed as something that is quarter-Husky, quarter-Malamute, half-Greenland Dog.
> 
> Ideally, all of my dogs will be equally split as far as breed-composition goes.


Indeed we do, because to us it doesn't matter as much of which dogs were used as foundation stock (and in what percentages), as long as the 'end-result' is the same. If the dogs fit the Tamaskan breed standard in terms of looks, temperament and health then what does it matter if Poodle or Siberian Husky was used 20 years ago??



SpWaMC said:


> Wonderful. Now sojourn back to that webpage and find the summary of their temperment, where is states, "Tamaskan tend to be extremely friendly and do well with adults and children of all ages. *This leads them to not making a good guard dog* unless licking someone to death is the idea you have for protection."


To be honest I think it would be a bad idea to have a wolfy looking dog bred/trained as guard dog. It's not like there isn't any stigma already :nonod:



Meezey said:


> It is a recognised breed, hence they are breeding to a standard they no longer use crosses no longer F1.. So again they have a standard they are recognised


We do have a standard yes, and we are recognized by ARBA. However our stud books are still open, so we do still crossbreed. This is necessary, our genetic base is just not big enough to keep the breed going for years to come. We do not want to make the same mistakes dozen of other breeds have made in the past...



SpWaMC said:


> If they're not withholding vast amounts of information, then there are currently only ten registered F2's and five registered F3's.


Where did you get that idea? There's at least 150 registered F2 dogs, and more then 50 F3.



lostbear said:


> Can they bark? If they get excited and bark, they will act as guards.


Some will bark, but many won't. So if you really want a guard dog, a Chihuahua would be a better choice 
My girl Tamaskan hardly ever barks, she's a very quit dog. Occasionally she will 'woo-woo' but not much. My Staffy will bark, if someone's at the door she will bark. But my Tamaskan will just look at her and think 'what's the fuzz? chill out' lol


----------



## simplysardonic

Wolfsbane said:


> I found this topic trough a google search and wanted to respond to some parts about the Tamaskan. Hope that's ok :smile5:
> I'm a Tamaskan owner from the Netherlands.
> 
> The Tamaskan doesn't breed true to type yet, and indeed our foundation stock exists out of all kinds of breeds/mixes. We need to start somewhere, and currently we are still working on building a large, genetically diverse and healthy, base.
> 
> The Tamaskan has indeed recently been accepted by ARBA. I wouldn't say they are as trainable as some breeds, they lack some 'will-to-please' (typical for shepherds for example), but most are highly food motivated and will do well with basic obedience training and several working activities/sports (like agilty, tracking, sledding).
> 
> Indeed we do, because to us it doesn't matter as much of which dogs were used as foundation stock (and in what percentages), as long as the 'end-result' is the same. If the dogs fit the Tamaskan breed standard in terms of looks, temperament and health then what does it matter if Poodle or Siberian Husky was used 20 years ago??
> 
> To be honest I think it would be a bad idea to have a wolfy looking dog bred/trained as guard dog. It's not like there isn't any stigma already :nonod:
> 
> We do have a standard yes, and we are recognized by ARBA. However our stud books are still open, so we do still crossbreed. This is necessary, our genetic base is just not big enough to keep the breed going for years to come. We do not want to make the same mistakes dozen of other breeds have made in the past...
> 
> Where did you get that idea? There's at least 150 registered F2 dogs, and more then 50 F3.
> 
> Some will bark, but many won't. So if you really want a guard dog, a Chihuahua would be a better choice
> My girl Tamaskan hardly ever barks, she's a very quit dog. Occasionally she will 'woo-woo' but not much. My Staffy will bark, if someone's at the door she will bark. But my Tamaskan will just look at her and think 'what's the fuzz? chill out' lol


Welcome to the forum, & thanks for the informative first post


----------



## Meezey

Wolfsbane said:


> I found this topic trough a google search and wanted to respond to some parts about the Tamaskan. Hope that's ok :smile5:
> I'm a Tamaskan owner from the Netherlands.
> 
> The Tamaskan doesn't breed true to type yet, and indeed our foundation stock exists out of all kinds of breeds/mixes. We need to start somewhere, and currently we are still working on building a large, genetically diverse and healthy, base.
> 
> The Tamaskan has indeed recently been accepted by ARBA. I wouldn't say they are as trainable as some breeds, they lack some 'will-to-please' (typical for shepherds for example), but most are highly food motivated and will do well with basic obedience training and several working activities/sports (like agilty, tracking, sledding).
> 
> Indeed we do, because to us it doesn't matter as much of which dogs were used as foundation stock (and in what percentages), as long as the 'end-result' is the same. If the dogs fit the Tamaskan breed standard in terms of looks, temperament and health then what does it matter if Poodle or Siberian Husky was used 20 years ago??
> 
> To be honest I think it would be a bad idea to have a wolfy looking dog bred/trained as guard dog. It's not like there isn't any stigma already :nonod:
> 
> We do have a standard yes, and we are recognized by ARBA. However our stud books are still open, so we do still crossbreed. This is necessary, our genetic base is just not big enough to keep the breed going for years to come. We do not want to make the same mistakes dozen of other breeds have made in the past...
> 
> Where did you get that idea? There's at least 150 registered F2 dogs, and more then 50 F3.
> 
> Some will bark, but many won't. So if you really want a guard dog, a Chihuahua would be a better choice
> My girl Tamaskan hardly ever barks, she's a very quit dog. Occasionally she will 'woo-woo' but not much. My Staffy will bark, if someone's at the door she will bark. But my Tamaskan will just look at her and think 'what's the fuzz? chill out' lol


Thank you for taking the time to clarify things  and welcome.


----------



## Rafa

Tails and Trails said:


> I always have to wonder at the God complex of people that want to create new breeds


Oh well, apparently, the OP is so important that no existing breed in the World "Fits her Criterion".

Quite what her criterion is, she hasn't said.

The only way she's going to ever get a dog good enough for her is to breed it herself.

Heaven only knows what'll happen should she ever decide to have a baby. :yikes:


----------



## Guest

Welcome to the forum Wolfsbane 


You know... This actually could be an interesting discussion about so many topics: Genetics, studying pedigrees, the role of temperament, structure and function, breeding ethics, breed purpose, genetic health testing and it's role in breeding... So many things to further our knowledge on.


----------



## simplysardonic

ouesi said:


> Welcome to the forum Wolfsbane
> 
> You know... This actually could be an interesting discussion about so many topics: Genetics, studying pedigrees, the role of temperament, structure and function, breeding ethics, breed purpose, genetic health testing and it's role in breeding... So many things to further our knowledge on.


Very true, I love seeing mature discussions on these subjects  we learn all our lives


----------



## AlexArt

Haven't read all the replies but I did snort my tea over my computer at the majority of the OP's posts!! It would be like me taking 2 zebras and trying to create thoroughbred race horses without the health issues over say 20 generations! But with a dog you don't just have 1 offspring a year you've got at least 10 fallouts from this stupid 'experiment' aka how can I make money out of my rescue dogs!!

If you were even remotely to be taken seriously why on earth would you start with 2 unhealtested black and wite short coated giant dogs which are old by the time they are 6 and have numerous health issues, plus every dane I've ever met has been a total slobbery dopey bimbo and you're wanting to breed a huge wolf look alike dog that guards and has a prey drive from that foundation??????!!!!  - Are you totally for real or a troll as I suspect??

I've been lucky enough to meet a few wolves face to face at various zoos in the past and I have to say they are way smaller than even my ovcharka and very gangly rangy things with very shy temperaments - why would you want to breed a dog that looks like that but with prey drive?? - a status thing me thinks? - oh and the people who want to own all your random mongrels you produce from this are going to be queuing up just like they are at the millions of over flowing rescue centres!! That 40 acres of yours is going to be full of random mutts within a year let alone have the space for years of breeding! - I hope this job of yours involves making millions every year to fund this!

I had a rescue utanogan x with a bullmastiff/DDB mix, he was yellow, short coated and had prey drive just like his 11 litter mates but unlike both parents, the breeder found she couldn't find homes for any of them so they ended up in rescue. He was totally neurotic and got a brain tumour at 6 so was pts - can you imagine producing tons of dogs potentially like that? I have 6ft fences as mine would have killed livestock if he did ever get out, he tried to kill my elderly goat who he'd grown up with, he was supposed to be a guard dog but was happy to see everyone! So just shows you even crossing a guarding breed type with something that looks like a wolf but predominantly shepherd/mal mix you end up with something totally unpredictable looks and temperament wise - none of that litter would be suitable to breed from so what would you do with a litter like that??!! You'll end up with such a bad reputation and I'd say a bunch of law suits from new owners of your randoms with huuuge vet bills!!
For anyone dumb enough to even think of doing what this idiot is pretending to do then please use this as a perfect example of how NOT to breed dogs of any breed!!! As for the OP I think we need to stop feeding the troll!!!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Just wanted to say, Welcome to the forum Wolfsbane


----------



## Bijou

you want a square wolfy looking dog that's highly trainable and a natural guard ? .....here you go 










Yep the Belgian Shepherd is already out there fulfilling EXACTLY the role you are aiming for and bizarrely without a sniff of a Great Dane in it's background .......heck they even come in a choice of coat colours and types !!!










Have to admit though this post has been just HILARIOUS !!!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

ouesi said:


> Welcome to the forum Wolfsbane
> 
> You know... This actually could be an interesting discussion about so many topics: Genetics, studying pedigrees, the role of temperament, structure and function, breeding ethics, breed purpose, genetic health testing and it's role in breeding... So many things to further our knowledge on.


You forgot geometric shapes


----------



## lostbear

simplysardonic said:


> You noticed it too :eek6: somehow it adds to the Pythonesque undertones of the entire thread


Omigawd waddid I miss? She's breeding pythons into the mix now?!

Quick - someone - summon the Spanish Inquisition - she won't expect that!


----------



## Rafa

But how do you breed square Pythons?

Perhaps you force them to live inside small cubes when they're supposed to be growing, so they end up forced into a permanent square shape.

You know how they used to force Chinese baby girls to wear tight bandages so that their feet never grew?


----------



## Nicky10

Easy just get a ball python and breed it into a square :yesnod:.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lostbear said:


> Omigawd waddid I miss? She's breeding pythons into the mix now?!
> 
> Quick - someone - summon the Spanish Inquisition - she won't expect that!


Except you've just given it away!

*sigh* anyone got a big cushion to shove in LB's mouth? First of all my world domination plans given away, now this!


----------



## Rafa

Bijou said:


> you want a square wolfy looking dog that's highly trainable and a natural guard ? .....here you go
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep the Belgian Shepherd is already out there fulfilling EXACTLY the role you are aiming for and bizarrely without a sniff of a Great Dane in it's background .......heck they even come in a choice of coat colours and types !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have to admit though this post has been just HILARIOUS !!!!


Oh yes, very nice, and I did have a Groenendael girl for years and she was lovely.

HOWEVER, let's not forget that this Square, Wolfish, part bred Great Dane, Alaskan Malamute with a dash of Doberman has to be willing to stalk the Tesco delivery driver and tear him limb from limb before he even has chance to get your Cornflakes and Kingsmill Loaf to your door.

Don't think a Belgian Shepherd would do that.

Back to the drawing board. If only we had the OP around to guide us.


----------



## lostbear

AlexArt said:


> *every dane I've ever met has been a total slobbery dopey bimbo *and you're wanting to breed a huge wolf look alike dog that guards and has a prey drive from that foundation??????!!!!  - Are you totally for real or a troll as I suspect??
> Yep! That's our Loki to a tee.
> 
> I had a rescue* utanogan* x with a bullmastiff/DDB mix, he was yellow,
> At first glance I thought that said orang-utan
> 
> short coated and had prey drive just like his 11 litter mates but unlike both parents, the breeder found she couldn't find homes for any of them so they ended up in rescue. He was totally neurotic and got a brain tumour at 6 so was pts - can you imagine producing tons of dogs potentially like that?
> 
> This is tragic - this poor dog was lucky to get someone who cared for him in his short life - many of his siblings probably ended up dumped
> 
> *As for the OP I think we need to stop feeding the troll!!!*


You're right - they're hardly an endangered species.


----------



## Badactis

The majority of replies to this thread have thus far been cringeworthy.

Here
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/334038-breeding-money.html

Here
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9369-necessary-health-tests-before-breeding.html

Here
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9237-thinking-about-breeding-your-bitch.html

And here
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9236-thinking-about-offering-your-dog-stud.html

Say exactly what countless members of this forum have preached in this thread. Why waste your time? everything you're saying has been stickied and is impossible to miss when entering this category. What makes me laugh is that you actually think you're doing something good or noble by acting so pretentiously cautious and nosey because someone you don't know wants to do something you don't personally agree with. We're not just over populated with dogs, we are with children. And cows. Yet you don't go after parents and farmers for wanting to bring more into the world when both are affecting us 10 x worse than stray and/or dead dogs are.

Orphanages are government funded, the RSPCA for example is not. You are in no way financially or physically affected by the RSPCA and/or other non profit animal shelters being over crowded. Yet you sit there in the comfort of your own home arguing and demeaning other people you've never met, know nothing about and lets be honest, frankly DON'T CARE about based on the minute piece of information you are presented with like you have some sort of authority over them.

I'd like to think anyone considering creating a dog breed, or better yet anyone requiring help in their quest to creating a dog breed would have at least read the facts that are so clearly presented to them as soon as they chose this category to post in. So my question to you, the members of petforums is why do you bother? Because lets be honest, its irrelevant wether or not they know or even care about a significant amount of dogs in need of rehoming. All we can do is present the facts to them, like we so clearly have done in the links above and hope they make the right decision. This, in my opinion seems like a more logical thing to do than 20 something pages of circle jerking one another explaining the same thing over and over again.

Its pathetic, and anyone who wastes their time continuing this tiring trend is pathetic all the same. I Love dogs, and its terrible to see such a huge population of them homeless or in shelters. But this isn't the solution, not by a long shot.

If you want to make a difference, volunteer at a shelter. Donate to a charity, or just shut the hell up - this decision amounts to the same as 20 something pages of the same thing thats already clearly pinned does.

But hey thats just my opinion. I wont be replying to any responses good or bad because I no longer wish to continue this tediousness any longer. And no, I don't agree with needlessly breeding dogs. If I could put a stop to it believe me I would, but this isn't the solution.


----------



## lostbear

Sweety said:


> But how do you breed square Pythons?
> 
> Perhaps you force them to live inside small cubes when they're supposed to be growing, so they end up forced into a permanent square shape.
> 
> *You know how they used to force Chinese baby girls to wear tight bandages so that their feet never grew*?


Could the OP have been forced to wear a very tight hat?


----------



## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Except you've just given it away!
> 
> *sigh* anyone got a big cushion to shove in LB's mouth? First of all my world domination plans given away, now this!


Oh! (*looks shamefaced and kicks the ground in am embarrassed fashion*) Sorry. . . :sad:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lostbear said:


> Oh! (*looks shamefaced and kicks the ground in am embarrassed fashion*) Sorry. . . :sad:


It's alright you looking all shamefaced and that, but what about my world domination plans with my dodecahedron dogs?

Still searching for a cushion, and I will put all the stuffing at one end!


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

Badactis said:


> The majority of replies to this thread have thus far been cringeworthy.
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/334038-breeding-money.html
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9369-necessary-health-tests-before-breeding.html
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9237-thinking-about-breeding-your-bitch.html
> 
> And here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9236-thinking-about-offering-your-dog-stud.html
> 
> Say exactly what countless members of this forum have preached in this thread. Why waste your time? everything you're saying has been stickied and is impossible to miss when entering this category. What makes me laugh is that you actually think you're doing something good or noble by acting so pretentiously cautious and nosey because someone you don't know wants to do something you don't personally agree with. We're not just over populated with dogs, we are with children. And cows. Yet you don't go after parents and farmers for wanting to bring more into the world when both are affecting us 10 x worse than stray and/or dead dogs are.
> 
> Orphanages are government funded, the RSPCA for example is not. You are in no way financially or physically affected by the RSPCA and/or other non profit animal shelters being over crowded. Yet you sit there in the comfort of your own home arguing and demeaning other people you've never met, know nothing about and lets be honest, frankly DON'T CARE about based on the minute piece of information you are presented with like you have some sort of authority over them.
> 
> I'd like to think anyone considering creating a dog breed, or better yet anyone requiring help in their quest to creating a dog breed would have at least read the facts that are so clearly presented to them as soon as they chose this category to post in. So my question to you, the members of petforums is why do you bother? Because lets be honest, its irrelevant wether or not they know or even care about a significant amount of dogs in need of rehoming. All we can do is present the facts to them, like we so clearly have done in the links above and hope they make the right decision. This, in my opinion seems like a more logical thing to do than 20 something pages of circle jerking one another explaining the same thing over and over again.
> 
> Its pathetic, and anyone who wastes their time continuing this tiring trend is pathetic all the same. I Love dogs, and its terrible to see such a huge population of them homeless or in shelters. But this isn't the solution, not by a long shot.
> 
> If you want to make *a difference, volunteer at a shelter. Donate to a charity, or just shut the hell up -* this decision amounts to the same as 20 something pages of the same thing thats already clearly pinned does.
> 
> But hey thats just my opinion. I wont be replying to any responses good or bad because I no longer wish to continue this tediousness any longer. And no, I don't agree with needlessly breeding dogs. If I could put a stop to it believe me I would, but this isn't the solution.


Er, I do and so do many others here. I foster Romanian dogs that have just been rescued and brought to the UK. And my own dog was a rescue.

That aside, you are it seems missing the point, namely that our responses are not just for the original poster but also for any loon out there that is considering such a frankly mad breeding project.

Oh, and it's not just that we 'personally disagree' with these breeding plans. It's that beneath all the sarcasm etc, we are all desperately worried about the dogs that are going to suffer as a result of this person's lack of ethics and common sense.

If you don't like the thread, then it's really simple: don't *read* it.


----------



## lostbear

Badactis said:


> The majority of replies to this thread have thus far been cringeworthy.
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/334038-breeding-money.html
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9369-necessary-health-tests-before-breeding.html
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9237-thinking-about-breeding-your-bitch.html
> 
> And here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9236-thinking-about-offering-your-dog-stud.html
> 
> Say exactly what countless members of this forum have preached in this thread. Why waste your time? everything you're saying has been stickied and is impossible to miss when entering this category. What makes me laugh is that you actually think you're doing something good or noble by acting so pretentiously cautious and nosey because someone you don't know wants to do something you don't personally agree with. We're not just over populated with dogs, we are with children. And cows. Yet you don't go after parents and farmers for wanting to bring more into the world when both are affecting us 10 x worse than stray and/or dead dogs are.
> 
> Orphanages are government funded, the RSPCA for example is not. You are in no way financially or physically affected by the RSPCA and/or other non profit animal shelters being over crowded. Yet you sit there in the comfort of your own home arguing and demeaning other people you've never met, know nothing about and lets be honest, frankly DON'T CARE about based on the minute piece of information you are presented with like you have some sort of authority over them.
> 
> I'd like to think anyone considering creating a dog breed, or better yet anyone requiring help in their quest to creating a dog breed would have at least read the facts that are so clearly presented to them as soon as they chose this category to post in. So my question to you, the members of petforums is why do you bother? Because lets be honest, its irrelevant wether or not they know or even care about a significant amount of dogs in need of rehoming. All we can do is present the facts to them, like we so clearly have done in the links above and hope they make the right decision. This, in my opinion seems like a more logical thing to do than 20 something pages of circle jerking one another explaining the same thing over and over again.
> 
> Its pathetic, and anyone who wastes their time continuing this tiring trend is pathetic all the same. I Love dogs, and its terrible to see such a huge population of them homeless or in shelters. But this isn't the solution, not by a long shot.
> 
> If you want to make a difference, volunteer at a shelter. Donate to a charity, or just shut the hell up - this decision amounts to the same as 20 something pages of the same thing thats already clearly pinned does.
> 
> But hey thats just my opinion. I wont be replying to any responses good or bad because I no longer wish to continue this tediousness any longer. And no, I don't agree with needlessly breeding dogs. If I could put a stop to it believe me I would, but this isn't the solution.


Time of the month is it, dear?


----------



## Rafa

Badactis said:


> The majority of replies to this thread have thus far been cringeworthy.
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/334038-breeding-money.html
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9369-necessary-health-tests-before-breeding.html
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9237-thinking-about-breeding-your-bitch.html
> 
> And here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9236-thinking-about-offering-your-dog-stud.html
> 
> Say exactly what countless members of this forum have preached in this thread. Why waste your time? everything you're saying has been stickied and is impossible to miss when entering this category. What makes me laugh is that you actually think you're doing something good or noble by acting so pretentiously cautious and nosey because someone you don't know wants to do something you don't personally agree with. We're not just over populated with dogs, we are with children. And cows. Yet you don't go after parents and farmers for wanting to bring more into the world when both are affecting us 10 x worse than stray and/or dead dogs are.
> 
> Orphanages are government funded, the RSPCA for example is not. You are in no way financially or physically affected by the RSPCA and/or other non profit animal shelters being over crowded. Yet you sit there in the comfort of your own home arguing and demeaning other people you've never met, know nothing about and lets be honest, frankly DON'T CARE about based on the minute piece of information you are presented with like you have some sort of authority over them.
> 
> I'd like to think anyone considering creating a dog breed, or better yet anyone requiring help in their quest to creating a dog breed would have at least read the facts that are so clearly presented to them as soon as they chose this category to post in. So my question to you, the members of petforums is why do you bother? Because lets be honest, its irrelevant wether or not they know or even care about a significant amount of dogs in need of rehoming. All we can do is present the facts to them, like we so clearly have done in the links above and hope they make the right decision. This, in my opinion seems like a more logical thing to do than 20 something pages of circle jerking one another explaining the same thing over and over again.
> 
> Its pathetic, and anyone who wastes their time continuing this tiring trend is pathetic all the same. I Love dogs, and its terrible to see such a huge population of them homeless or in shelters. But this isn't the solution, not by a long shot.
> 
> If you want to make a difference, volunteer at a shelter. Donate to a charity, or just shut the hell up - this decision amounts to the same as 20 something pages of the same thing thats already clearly pinned does.
> 
> But hey thats just my opinion. I wont be replying to any responses good or bad because I no longer wish to continue this tediousness any longer. And no, I don't agree with needlessly breeding dogs. If I could put a stop to it believe me I would, but this isn't the solution.


I do donate each month to three animal charities.

Shut the Hell up? No ....... I won't be doing that.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Badactis said:


> The majority of replies to this thread have thus far been cringeworthy.
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/334038-breeding-money.html
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9369-necessary-health-tests-before-breeding.html
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9237-thinking-about-breeding-your-bitch.html
> 
> And here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9236-thinking-about-offering-your-dog-stud.html
> 
> Say exactly what countless members of this forum have preached in this thread. Why waste your time? everything you're saying has been stickied and is impossible to miss when entering this category. What makes me laugh is that you actually think you're doing something good or noble by acting so pretentiously cautious and nosey because someone you don't know wants to do something you don't personally agree with. We're not just over populated with dogs, we are with children. And cows. Yet you don't go after parents and farmers for wanting to bring more into the world when both are affecting us 10 x worse than stray and/or dead dogs are.
> 
> Orphanages are government funded, the RSPCA for example is not. You are in no way financially or physically affected by the RSPCA and/or other non profit animal shelters being over crowded. Yet you sit there in the comfort of your own home arguing and demeaning other people you've never met, know nothing about and lets be honest, frankly DON'T CARE about based on the minute piece of information you are presented with like you have some sort of authority over them.
> 
> I'd like to think anyone considering creating a dog breed, or better yet anyone requiring help in their quest to creating a dog breed would have at least read the facts that are so clearly presented to them as soon as they chose this category to post in. So my question to you, the members of petforums is why do you bother? Because lets be honest, its irrelevant wether or not they know or even care about a significant amount of dogs in need of rehoming. All we can do is present the facts to them, like we so clearly have done in the links above and hope they make the right decision. This, in my opinion seems like a more logical thing to do than 20 something pages of circle jerking one another explaining the same thing over and over again.
> 
> Its pathetic, and anyone who wastes their time continuing this tiring trend is pathetic all the same. I Love dogs, and its terrible to see such a huge population of them homeless or in shelters. But this isn't the solution, not by a long shot.
> 
> If you want to make a difference, volunteer at a shelter. Donate to a charity, or just shut the hell up - this decision amounts to the same as 20 something pages of the same thing thats already clearly pinned does.
> 
> But hey thats just my opinion. I wont be replying to any responses good or bad because I no longer wish to continue this tediousness any longer. And no, I don't agree with needlessly breeding dogs. If I could put a stop to it believe me I would, but this isn't the solution.


I've rescued dogs in the past, both old dogs, given literally weeks to live, and also donate to dog charities. The day I stop posting *common* sense about dogs, is the day I don't deserve to own them, and I really don't care if anyone dislikes me for that. I don't post about dogs to gain popularity, I am honest, blunt, sometimes sarcastic, but I care about the dogs.

Thanks for linking to a sticky I started though


----------



## simplysardonic

Badactis said:


> The majority of replies to this thread have thus far been cringeworthy.
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/334038-breeding-money.html
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9369-necessary-health-tests-before-breeding.html
> 
> Here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9237-thinking-about-breeding-your-bitch.html
> 
> And here
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/9236-thinking-about-offering-your-dog-stud.html
> 
> Say exactly what countless members of this forum have preached in this thread. Why waste your time? everything you're saying has been stickied and is impossible to miss when entering this category. What makes me laugh is that you actually think you're doing something good or noble by acting so pretentiously cautious and nosey because someone you don't know wants to do something you don't personally agree with. We're not just over populated with dogs, we are with children. And cows. Yet you don't go after parents and farmers for wanting to bring more into the world when both are affecting us 10 x worse than stray and/or dead dogs are.
> 
> Orphanages are government funded, the RSPCA for example is not. You are in no way financially or physically affected by the RSPCA and/or other non profit animal shelters being over crowded. Yet you sit there in the comfort of your own home arguing and demeaning other people you've never met, know nothing about and lets be honest, frankly DON'T CARE about based on the minute piece of information you are presented with like you have some sort of authority over them.
> 
> I'd like to think anyone considering creating a dog breed, or better yet anyone requiring help in their quest to creating a dog breed would have at least read the facts that are so clearly presented to them as soon as they chose this category to post in. So my question to you, the members of petforums is why do you bother? Because lets be honest, its irrelevant wether or not they know or even care about a significant amount of dogs in need of rehoming. All we can do is present the facts to them, like we so clearly have done in the links above and hope they make the right decision. This, in my opinion seems like a more logical thing to do than 20 something pages of circle jerking one another explaining the same thing over and over again.
> 
> Its pathetic, and anyone who wastes their time continuing this tiring trend is pathetic all the same. I Love dogs, and its terrible to see such a huge population of them homeless or in shelters. But this isn't the solution, not by a long shot.
> 
> *If you want to make a difference, volunteer at a shelter. Donate to a charity*, or just shut the hell up - this decision amounts to the same as 20 something pages of the same thing thats already clearly pinned does.
> 
> But hey thats just my opinion. I wont be replying to any responses good or bad because I no longer wish to continue this tediousness any longer. And no, I don't agree with needlessly breeding dogs. If I could put a stop to it believe me I would, but this isn't the solution.


Already doing so thanks- volunteer as a dog walker, donate to several rescues & share my life with 3 rescue dogs.

I'm assuming you do the same, or possibly even more, or you wouldn't post in such a patronising, presumptuous manner


----------



## Rafa

:


lostbear said:


> time of the month is it, dear?


lol!!!


----------



## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's alright you looking all shamefaced and that, but what about my world domination plans with my dodecahedron dogs?
> 
> Still searching for a cushion, and I will put all the stuffing at one end!


That's it! Blame me! It's always my fault, isn't it?

If you didn't have so many nefarious plans for world domination, intergalactic supra planetary control, and becoming Boss of the Entire Known and Unknown Universe, not to mention wanting to get your hands on every Belgian chocolate in Europe (oh, yes - I know your true motivation!) then you would't have to worry about everybody finding out about them.

They would have guessed anyway when you posted your photos of your new squaroid tripedal proto-wolf-dane-cockerspaniel-dachshund hybrids on the forum (don't say you wouldn't because you WOULD! You so WOULD! You would be made up about them and you wouldn't be able to keep it to yourself - the only thing you can keep to yourself is CHOCOLATE - ho, yes - you're VERY good at keeping chocolate to yourself aren't you? Little chocochomper that you are!).

So, anyway, I've forgotten what I was ranting about so I'm just going to go on for a couple more lines and then just stop suddenly, as though too overcome with rage and despair to even type another word.

Then I'm going to get a biscuit. :001_tt2:

So there.


----------



## SpWaMC

ouesi said:


> Speaking of being hypocritical, do you realize the hypocrisy (and contradictions) in your own statements in this thread?


Not really. I understand that in breeding to *any* standard you are, most likely, not working towards betterment the health of _dogs_ generally -- but rather, you're working towards the betterment of your _breed_, generally. No matter how healthy you get your Shibu Inu, that doesn't affect Poodles at all.

The comments about this were regarding people spouting off that "crossing breeds" is the hallmark of a bad breeder; despite knowledge that the vast majority of existing breeds were created by doing just that. So, then, it's hypocritical to say that miscegenation is bad and that breeding for existing breeds is good.

A few people have even suggested other breeds, notably unrecognized breeds like Tamaskan or Northern Inuit, that I could purchase in lieu of fostering my own type -- despite that fact that these breeds were, by their own admission, the product of cross-breeding.



> And BTW...
> 
> Total ignorance. I've been around cars my whole life, doesn't mean I know how they work or that I'm capable of building one.
> And a kid being present for a whelping or two means you're prepared to breed and whelp your own litter(s)?!


He asked about my experience with working dogs, not my experience with dogs in general. The assumptive nature of many folks here is astounding.


----------



## Rafa

SpWaMC said:


> Not really. I understand that in breeding to *any* standard you are, most likely, not working towards betterment the health of _dogs_ generally -- but rather, you're working towards the betterment of your _breed_, generally.
> 
> The comments about this were regarding people spouting off that "crossing breeds" is the hallmark of a bad breeder; despite knowledge that the vast majority of existing breeds were created by doing just that. So, then, it's hypocritical to say that miscegenation is bad and that breeding for existing breeds is good.
> 
> A few people have even suggested other breeds, notably unrecognized breeds like Tamaskan or Northern Inuit, that I could purchase in lieu of fostering my own type -- despite that fact that these breeds were, by their own admission, the product of cross-breeding.
> 
> He asked about my experience with working dogs, not my experience with dogs in general. The assumptive nature of many folks here is astounding.


Yes and, apparently, you have little experience with working dogs. You may have grown up with them, it certainly doesn't mean you're qualified to breed them and create your own breed.

Such arrogance. I would really like to know how old you are, because you come across as extremely immature.

Can you REALLY still be trying to come across as a credible breeder of dogs? Someone who really knows what they're doing?

You're not .... You don't. People like you are one of the reasons our Shelters and Pounds are full of unwanted crossbreeds.


----------



## Rafa

And how on Earth can you be talking now about the betterment of your breed?

Your breed at the moment is a Great Dane. How are you bettering that particular breed by crossing it with Alaskan Malamutes and Dobermans?

That's not working towards the betterment of a Breed, it's mucking about with it to try and make it what you personally want.


----------



## SpWaMC

Sweety said:


> And how on Earth can you be talking now about the betterment of your breed?


I never once said anything about "my breed"; I said that anybody who says, with one breath, that they're primarily concerned with the health of *all dogs* and then turns around and claims that maintaining existing breeds is the best way to do this is clearly not very knowledgeable about genetics.

In any case, as was stated a page or so ago, it's not really the business of anybody here to tell me what I ought to expend my time and resources on; if I wanted to spend $15,000 a year developing an obese Chihuahua, that's my prerogative. It so happens that I don't want that, so be glad of that, I suppose. Or don't, not really my concern.

All this website has really shown me is that British folks are still, even after centuries of being belittled by every corner of the world since the U.S. decided you were useless, a pack of cheeky c***s.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

lostbear said:


> That's it! Blame me! It's always my fault, isn't it?
> 
> If you didn't have so many nefarious plans for world domination, intergalactic supra planetary control, and becoming Boss of the Entire Known and Unknown Universe, not to mention wanting to get your hands on every *Belgian chocolate* in Europe (oh, yes - I know your true motivation!) then you would't have to worry about everybody finding out about them.
> 
> They would have guessed anyway when you posted your photos of your new squaroid tripedal proto-wolf-dane-cockerspaniel-dachshund hybrids on the forum (don't say you wouldn't because you WOULD! You so WOULD! You would be made up about them and you wouldn't be able to keep it to yourself - the only thing you can keep to yourself is CHOCOLATE - ho, yes - you're VERY good at keeping chocolate to yourself aren't you? Little chocochomper that you are!).
> 
> So, anyway, I've forgotten what I was ranting about so I'm just going to go on for a couple more lines and then just stop suddenly, as though too overcome with rage and despair to even type another word.
> 
> Then I'm going to get a biscuit. :001_tt2:
> 
> So there.


Belgian Chocolate???

Is this a new type of Lab that SLEEPING LION has secretly been breeding?

Are their temperaments even sweeter than normal Labs?

And most crucially: how square are they.....? I think we need to be told


----------



## Nicky10

And enter the US superiority complex . Malamutes and great danes are built completely differently and bred for completely different roles. Crossing them isn't going to benefit anyone but your pocket maybe.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

SpWaMC said:


> I never once said anything about "my breed"; I said that anybody who says, with one breath, that they're primarily concerned with the health of *all dogs* and then turns around and claims that maintaining existing breeds is the best way to do this is clearly not very knowledgeable about genetics.
> 
> In any case, as was stated a page or so ago, it's not really the business of anybody here to tell me what I ought to expend my time and resources on; if I wanted to spend $15,000 a year developing an obese Chihuahua, that's my prerogative. It so happens that I don't want that, so be glad of that, I suppose. Or don't, not really my concern.
> 
> All this website has really shown me is that British folks are still, even after centuries of being belittled by every corner of the world since the U.S. decided you were useless, a pack of *cheeky c***s*.


lol lol You posted in an open forum.

You described breeding plans that would have ANY sane dog lover tearing their hair out with despair.

You were given advice but refused to take anything on board.

And now you're throwing a temper tantrum!

When does school start again, hmmm....?


----------



## SpWaMC

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> lol lol You posted in an open forum.
> 
> You described breeding plans that would have ANY sane dog lover tearing their hair out with despair.
> 
> You were given advice but refused to take anything on board.
> 
> And now you're throwing a temper tantrum!
> 
> When does school start again, hmmm....?


I'm not throwing anything; I asked a single question, pointedly, and out of fifteen responders only one of them attempted at a relevant answer.

To me, this says the majority of the people in this thread are exactly as I described them above. They're here to piss and moan about an idea they don't like.


----------



## Nicky10

I'm not British so do I get a free pass?


----------



## LinznMilly

SpWaMC said:


> I never once said anything about "my breed"; I said that anybody who says, with one breath, that they're primarily concerned with the health of *all dogs* and then turns around and claims that maintaining existing breeds is the best way to do this is clearly not very knowledgeable about genetics.
> 
> *In any case, as was stated a page or so ago, it's not really the business of anybody here to tell me what I ought to expend my time and resources on; if I wanted to spend $15,000 a year developing an obese Chihuahua, that's my prerogative. It so happens that I don't want that, so be glad of that, I suppose. Or don't, not really my concern.*
> All this website has really shown me is that British folks are still, even after centuries of being belittled by every corner of the world since the U.S. decided you were useless, a pack of cheeky c***s.


Not strictly true, that, is it? Animal cruelty is animal cruelty and it SHOULD be everybody's business.

FWIW, I don't think you are a child, but that's not a complement to you. I think you're a cold, hard business-person who is talking about proto dogs and "new breeds" as if they're the latest must-have in technology. Reality check here - we're talking about LIVES. A life is a life, whether it's human, dog or goldfish (and don't get me _started _on the f*** up we "humans" have done to ornamental fish in the name of arrogance and demand) and you are responsible for every LIFE you bring into this world - AND any that all of your mongrel dogs new owners decide to bring into the world. That is something you don't seem to grasp. But of course, all these mongrels will be going to loving, top-notch homes because if the owners don't produce evidence of neuter/spay treatment, you're going to raid their homes and "heroically" "rescue" every last one of your progeny. 

The dog that you intend to use as foundation stock for this brand new breed, is a girl from a BYB who you seem to have acquired for free, and see as a potential money-spinner. If she doesn't meet with your expectations, you're just going to sell her on again as if she's yesterday's news. To some extent, I hope you don't get the answer you want from these vet check-ups and that this poor girl goes off to find a nice new home with someone who actually appreciates her.

The scary thing is, to the uneducated, you sound know what you're talking about, but you don't. :nonod:


----------



## lostbear

SpWaMC said:


> The comments about this were regarding people spouting off that "crossing breeds" is the hallmark of a bad breeder; despite knowledge that *the vast majority of existing breeds were created by doing just that.*
> 
> By people who knew about their dogs and knew what they were doing
> 
> A few people have even suggested other breeds, notably unrecognized breeds like Tamaskan or Northern Inuit, that I could purchase in lieu of fostering my own type -- despite that fact that *these breeds were, by their own admission, the product of cross-breeding.*
> 
> By people who know about their dogs and know what they are doing





SpWaMC said:


> I never once said anything about "my breed"; I said that anybody who says, with one breath, that they're primarily concerned with the health of *all dogs* and then* turns around and claims that maintaining existing breeds is the best way to do this *is clearly not very knowledgeable about genetics.
> 
> Forgive me if I missed it - I didn't see anyone making this claim. I did see people who were very vocal (and rightly so) in the need for health testing, particularly where there is a known health issue in a breed - health issues often bred in by people like yourself, who are determined to do something stupid because that is their "right" - they've paid for the dog, they can do what they like to it.
> 
> Most posters on this forum are passionate about dogs - all dogs. They are not naive - they know that many breeds have been ruined by inbreeding for characteristics that have gone beyond being the functional requirements of the breed when it was developed, and become cruel and dangerous to the animal. They are working tirelessly to maintain and breed healthy dogs of their own, and to reduce health faults in "their" breed (because we can't have an in-depth knowledge, to the extent required for ethical breeding, of ALL breeds).
> 
> You appear to have little or no knowledge of genetics yourself, and yet you criticise people who know the subject inside-out and back to front. I don't pretend to understand genetics - but I know enough to be aware that it is far to complex for me to comprehend, and I wouldn't even try to mess with it to the extent that you are. I know enough to know that there are all sorts of recessive characteristics that can pop up unexpectedly, and horribly, when you least expect it/
> 
> In any case, as was stated a page or so ago,* it's not really the business of anybody here to tell me what I ought to expend my time and resources on*;
> 
> That depends - are you investing in beach front property in the Nevada desert? Knock yourself out. That is something stupid that affects inly you. Are you doing something stupid that affects other living creatures and will be contributing to the already tragically overflowing unwanted dog population? Don't expect support here.
> 
> * if I wanted to spend $15,000 a year developing an obese Chihuahua, that's my prerogative.*
> 
> And that is the trouble with people with your mindset - you do it because you can - not because it's a good thing to do. Animals aren't "things" - they are living, breathing, thinking, feeling creatures of God with a rich emotional life that we humans, as a race, rarely acknowledge. We have no right to mess about with them because we have the time and the money and apparently nothing better to do. They are abused everywhere in the world and have little legal protection. In some countries the people are so poor that they have nothing to give their animals. Here in Europe, and even more so in America, there is often a mindset that allows people to justify any idiocy or cruelty at all. "I can afford to do this - and it's my dog!" You are worse than a toddler in your reasoning. And because you aren't a toddler, there is little that can be done with you. You can'r be taught and you are unlikely to grow out of it.
> 
> *It so happens that I don't want that, so be glad of that,* I suppose. Or don't, not really my concern.
> 
> Please - don't do us any favours!
> 
> All this website has really shown me is that *British folks*
> 
> Your critics are legion - from every corner of the (square?) globe, not just the UK
> are still, even after centuries of being belittled by every corner of the world* since the U.S. decided you were useless,*
> 
> Since the US realised that they had a big enough and brutal enough civilian population to kill the Native Americans indiscriminately, and didn't need the British standing army for protection and to maintain rule of law any more. Cowards to the end, you continue to bully every other country wherever you can. It shames me that since Margaret Thatcher, our politicians have been up your backsides. (And I unreservedly apologise to all sensible Americans everywhere - I know you exist because I have actually met some of you. We don't always agree, but at least e can disagree like adults and from out points of knowledge, rather than stamping our feet and sticking our tongues out)
> 
> *a pack of cheeky c***s.*


We aim to please


----------



## Meezey

SpWaMC said:


> I never once said anything about "my breed"; I said that anybody who says, with one breath, that they're primarily concerned with the health of *all dogs* and then turns around and claims that maintaining existing breeds is the best way to do this is clearly not very knowledgeable about genetics.
> 
> In any case, as was stated a page or so ago, it's not really the business of anybody here to tell me what I ought to expend my time and resources on; if I wanted to spend $15,000 a year developing an obese Chihuahua, that's my prerogative. It so happens that I don't want that, so be glad of that, I suppose. Or don't, not really my concern.
> 
> All this website has really shown me is that British folks are still, even after centuries of being belittled by every corner of the world since the U.S. decided you were useless, a pack of cheeky c***s.


Tut tut tut can see marketing and getting backing for your new square wonder dog is going to be your strong point, knowing your audience not a strong suit either, I'm not British nor am I male! But sure doesn't everyone love a cheeky chappy you are unfortunately not winning there either! My dear there are people here who could teach you a lot about genetics, and understand it far better than you could even dream of  now let's to play the stereotypical American doesn't do your fellow countrymen and favours


----------



## lilythepink

I think we all got OP wrong. It was never his./her intention to breed anything....the name of the game here was to spout off and see just how fast they could get banned from a pet forum.


----------



## lostbear

lilythepink said:


> I think we all got OP wrong. It was never his./her intention to breed anything....the name of the game here was to spout off and see just how fast they could get banned from a pet forum.


How little they know us - we have taken down greater intellects than that without the need for banning. I am quite impressed with the OP - in fact I think it might be a little consortium - one with a keyboard, another with a dictionary to look up the big words (just think - we are teaching them the alphabet), another to invent spurious statistics, a fourth to get bags of doritos for everyone . . .


----------



## lilythepink

Time to bring out the anteaters....that'll fix em.lololol


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lostbear said:


> That's it! Blame me! It's always my fault, isn't it?
> 
> If you didn't have so many nefarious plans for world domination, intergalactic supra planetary control, and becoming Boss of the Entire Known and Unknown Universe, not to mention wanting to get your hands on every Belgian chocolate in Europe (oh, yes - I know your true motivation!) then you would't have to worry about everybody finding out about them.
> 
> They would have guessed anyway when you posted your photos of your new squaroid tripedal proto-wolf-dane-cockerspaniel-dachshund hybrids on the forum (don't say you wouldn't because you WOULD! You so WOULD! You would be made up about them and you wouldn't be able to keep it to yourself - the only thing you can keep to yourself is CHOCOLATE - ho, yes - you're VERY good at keeping chocolate to yourself aren't you? Little chocochomper that you are!).
> 
> So, anyway, I've forgotten what I was ranting about so I'm just going to go on for a couple more lines and then just stop suddenly, as though too overcome with rage and despair to even type another word.
> 
> Then I'm going to get a biscuit. :001_tt2:
> 
> So there.


Well you won't find a chocolate one in the cupboard 

You are so close to guessing my nefarious plans, just not quite there.......



SpWaMC said:


> I never once said anything about "my breed"; I said that anybody who says, with one breath, that they're primarily concerned with the health of *all dogs* and then turns around and claims that maintaining existing breeds is the best way to do this is clearly not very knowledgeable about genetics.
> 
> In any case, as was stated a page or so ago, it's not really the business of anybody here to tell me what I ought to expend my time and resources on; if I wanted to spend $15,000 a year developing an obese Chihuahua, that's my prerogative. It so happens that I don't want that, so be glad of that, I suppose. Or don't, not really my concern.
> 
> All this website has really shown me is that British folks are still, even after centuries of being belittled by every corner of the world since the U.S. decided you were useless, a pack of cheeky c***s.


I think you must be one of the most ignorant people I've ever seen post on here. This is a UK based forum, which, if you'd read a few posts, you may have noticed. It's also a forum whose members for the most part support ethical breeding, whether that's pedigrees or cross breeds, which again, if you'd read just a few posts before you went shooting your mouth off, you may have noticed. If you knew even the slightest thing about dog breeds, you'd know, for example, with flatcoats (one of my breeds) they were outcrossed back to Labradors after the second world war, to increase genetic diversity. The fact that many dogs have been used to gain desired *types* in registered pedigree breeds, means that there is a lot of shared ancestry across types, with a lot of common health problems, such as hereditary cataracts, heart murmurs, dysplasia - all of which, good breeders HEALTH TEST for, not a check up at the vet who will tell you your dog has a pulse and reproductive organs, so go for it. So how do you propose with your random mix of breeds, to prevent health problems in your not so new prototype breed? Or are you just gonna wing it?

So for all those people who do their best to breed towards a healthy breed type of dog, so that people know what they're going to get when they buy a puppy, and health test, we're wasting our time. We should just acquire an animal that has reproductive organs and throw a few random breeds into the mix, and *hope* for the best. Who cares what happens to the discarded pups along the way that aren't fit for breeding eh?



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Belgian Chocolate???
> 
> Is this a new type of Lab that SLEEPING LION has secretly been breeding?
> 
> Are their temperaments even sweeter than normal Labs?
> 
> And most crucially: how square are they.....? I think we need to be told


See, I told everyone that LB has a big mouth!! It is not Belgian chocolate, and it's not square


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

SpWaMC said:


> I'm not throwing anything; I asked a single question, pointedly, and out of fifteen responders only one of them attempted at a relevant answer.
> 
> To me, this says the majority of the people in this thread are exactly as I described them above. They're here to piss and moan about an idea they don't like.


Let's assume that sadly your insane breeding plan goes ahead. It's likely that someone on here would see it mentioned somewhere, or hear about it. Happily, I have taken screenshots of your less than polite responses as well as your stunning misunderstanding of the main issues, and I shall be happy to share those images with the world if and when your lunatic and vile plan becomes a reality.


----------



## lostbear

Nicky10 said:


> I'm not British so do I get a free pass?


Sorry, Babe - you are damned by association. :001_tt2:


----------



## lostbear

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Belgian Chocolate???
> 
> Is this a new type of Lab that SLEEPING LION has secretly been breeding?
> 
> Are their temperaments even sweeter than normal Labs?
> 
> And most crucially: how square are they.....? I think we need to be told











Not terribly square ATM - as you see, they are pretty squashy, but I'm sure that SL will be in contact with the OP for advice on how to breed in squareness (squarosity? squaritude? Whatever.) because one thing that I have been particularly impressed by is the OP's deep and thorough knowledge of canine genetics.

And I'm sure I speak for us all.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lostbear said:


> View attachment 137375
> 
> 
> Not terribly square ATM - as you see, they are pretty squashy, but I'm sure that SL will be in contact with the OP for advice on how to breed in squareness (squarosity? squaritude? Whatever.) because one thing that I have been particularly impressed by is the OP's deep and thorough knowledge of canine genetics.
> 
> And I'm sure I speak for us all.


You're barking up the wrong chocolate tree there LB, you may have inadvertently found out about my plans for world (possibly intergalactic) domination, but completely off side with the Belgian chocolate direction.

I have been inspired by the local fish mongers, no, not to make a random outcross to a pollock, not even tempted by the very nice looking sushimi tuna they have; but no, on their deli counter they have a new (and obviously rare) cheese with charcoal in, which they had sold out of and were awaiting an emergency delivery to replenish stocks. I mean, if they can sell out of charcoal cheese so quickly, imagine how quickly I could sell charcoal chocolates?

Still working on how to get the charcoal bit in there, not sure whether to try slow barbecuing them, or getting them to roll in/eat charcoal, or even charcoal cheese.......

As the cheeses are also sold in rounds, I will be going for a similar shape, none of these outdated geometric shapes with angles that take you forever to work out!


----------



## simplysardonic

SpWaMC said:


> I never once said anything about "my breed"; I said that anybody who says, with one breath, that they're primarily concerned with the health of *all dogs* and then turns around and claims that maintaining existing breeds is the best way to do this is clearly not very knowledgeable about genetics.
> 
> In any case, as was stated a page or so ago, it's not really the business of anybody here to tell me what I ought to expend my time and resources on; if I wanted to spend $15,000 a year developing an obese Chihuahua, that's my prerogative. It so happens that I don't want that, so be glad of that, I suppose. Or don't, not really my concern.
> 
> All this website has really shown me is that British folks are still, even after centuries of being belittled by every corner of the world since the U.S. decided you were useless, a pack of cheeky c***s.


I'm sure most of us on here can live with being branded a pack of cheeky, ummm........... cakes?

It's so amusing when people start to get personal because they are losing credence within a discussion, especially when it has the added charm of racist undertones :thumbup1:



lilythepink said:


> I think we all got OP wrong. It was never his./her intention to breed anything....the name of the game here was to spout off and see just how fast they could get banned from a pet forum.


If they are, they've failed, I've seen people banned before even getting a first post in


----------



## Tails and Trails

simplysardonic said:


> I'm sure most of us on here can live with being branded a pack of cheeky, ummm........... cakes?
> 
> It's so amusing when people start to get personal because they are losing credence within a discussion, especially when it has the added charm of racist undertones :thumbup1:
> 
> If they are, they've failed, I've seen people banned before even getting a first post in


if he is anglo saxon, its not racism

xenophobia, maybe

prejudice, yes

besides, he is wrong, every corner of the world thinks britain are cheeky c*nts ever since we tied ourselves to american coat-tails


----------



## simplysardonic

Tails and Trails said:


> if he is anglo saxon, its not racism
> 
> *xenophobia*, maybe
> 
> prejudice, yes
> 
> besides, he is wrong, every corner of the world thinks britain are cheeky c*nts ever since we tied ourselves to american coat-tails


That's the word I was looking for


----------



## newfiesmum

simplysardonic said:


> I'm sure most of us on here can live with being branded a pack of cheeky, ummm........... cakes?
> 
> It's so amusing when people start to get personal because they are losing credence within a discussion, especially when it has the added charm of racist undertones :thumbup1:
> 
> If they are, they've failed, I've seen people banned before even getting a first post in


I was tempted, then you suggested that was the intention so I thought I would refrain from giving her what she wanted!


----------



## SusieRainbow

Some people really have far too much time on their hands , don't they ! 
( meaning the OP, I've had a good chuckle reading some of the amazing witty responses !):lol:


----------



## mrs phas

this thread has been hilarious, thank you all for cheering me up
however
how did someone with the name spam see get past one page let alone warrant 25
and
please may I have a Direwolf too:ihih:


----------



## Colette

> You're barking up the wrong chocolate tree there


There's a chocolate tree now??? 
Where can I get me one of these? I don't care if its a square tree, or a cheeky **** British tree, so long as its a cholocate tree!


----------



## Guest

Well great... now I'm having a total identity crisis. 

I'm not British, but apparently I'm lumped in with the British because of my opinions. Does that make me a useless cheeky c*** or an arrogant American with a superiority complex? 


Maybe I'm just a square....


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

ouesi said:


> Well great... now I'm having a total identity crisis.
> 
> I'm not British, but apparently I'm lumped in with the British because of my opinions. Does that make me a useless cheeky c*** or an arrogant American with a superiority complex?
> 
> Maybe I'm just a square....


I've always thought of you as more pentagon shaped


----------



## Rafa

ouesi said:


> Well great... now I'm having a total identity crisis.
> 
> I'm not British, but apparently I'm lumped in with the British because of my opinions. Does that make me a useless cheeky c*** or an arrogant American with a superiority complex?
> 
> Maybe I'm just a square....


Don't be confused and please don't give a moment's worry to what you are.

It's simple you see. If you don't really like what you are, you can mate yourself to somebody with a wolfish appearance, (a good beard helps here), and produce a couple of kids who are squarish and wolf like.

You can move things on from there.

Any kids along the way that don't have the required looks can be turned loose on your sprawling acreage to fend for themselves.


----------



## lostbear

Sweety said:


> Don't be confused and please don't give a moment's worry to what you are.
> 
> It's simple you see. If you don't really like what you are, you can mate yourself to somebody with a wolfish appearance, (a good beard helps here), and *produce a couple of kids who are squarish and wolf like. *
> 
> You can move things on from there.
> 
> Any kids along the way that don't have the required looks can be turned loose on your sprawling acreage to fend for themselves.


Bear in mind that your daughters will require a NO-NO as a christening gift.


----------



## lostbear

ouesi said:


> Well great... now I'm having a total identity crisis.
> 
> I'm not British, but apparently I'm lumped in with the British because of my opinions. Does that make me a useless cheeky c*** or an arrogant American with a superiority complex?
> 
> *
> Maybe I'm just a square.... *


I've always envisioned you as a hexagon . . .


----------



## Guest

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've always thought of you as more pentagon shaped





lostbear said:


> I've always envisioned you as a hexagon . . .


I'm multifaceted


----------



## lilythepink

ouesi said:


> Well great... now I'm having a total identity crisis.
> 
> I'm not British, but apparently I'm lumped in with the British because of my opinions. Does that make me a useless cheeky c*** or an arrogant American with a superiority complex?
> 
> Maybe I'm just a square....


but are you a chocolate square?


----------



## lilythepink

lostbear said:


> Bear in mind that your daughters will require a NO-NO as a christening gift.


I can pay for a NO NO....can just about afford it.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

Sweety said:


> Don't be confused and please don't give a moment's worry to what you are.
> 
> It's simple you see. If you don't really like what you are, you can mate yourself to somebody with a wolfish appearance, (a good beard helps here), and produce a couple of kids who are squarish and wolf like.
> 
> You can move things on from there.
> 
> *Any kids along the way that don't have the required looks can be turned loose on your sprawling acreage to fend for themselve*s.


Hilarious 

The system won't let me rep you again, I tried!


----------



## Rafa

Ouesi, could I just remind you that if you do go ahead with that plan, (and Heaven knows, why wouldn't you), to have the relevant health tests first to be sure you're not carrying the gene for any undesirable condition?

(Rickets, Road Rage Syndrome and a tendency to Covet Your Neighbour's Ass spring to mind).

I hope you don't mind me mentioning it ........... I wouldn't want to come across as a Useless Cheeky C... or anything.


----------



## Guest

Sweety said:


> Don't be confused and please don't give a moment's worry to what you are.
> 
> It's simple you see. If you don't really like what you are, you can mate yourself to somebody with a wolfish appearance, (a good beard helps here), and produce a couple of kids who are squarish and wolf like.
> 
> You can move things on from there.
> 
> Any kids along the way that don't have the required looks can be turned loose on your sprawling acreage to fend for themselves.


You should know though, I do come from unproven stock, and have a sketchy pedigree... Some things got lost on the dam's side...


----------



## Guest

Sweety said:


> Ouesi, could I just remind you that if you do go ahead with that plan, (and Heaven knows, why wouldn't you), to have the relevant health tests first to be sure you're not carrying the gene for any undesirable condition?
> 
> (Rickets, Road Rage Syndrome and a tendency to Covet Your Neighbour's Ass spring to mind).
> 
> I hope you don't mind me mentioning it ........... I wouldn't want to come across as a Useless Cheeky C... or anything.


I did clear for rickets, but have terrible road rage, and ass coveting is through the roof. I hear you can work with those traits though. Something about being ass-driven? I hear it's kind of like ball drive. And then there's bloat. I do have a tendency to bloat...


----------



## bay20

i havnt read the whole of this thread yet but coming in at the end is like stepping into a room half way through a conversation and not knowing what people are talking about....hilarious. the posts have really been making me laugh...now time to find out whats really going on...*goes to page 1*


----------



## lostbear

ouesi said:


> I'm multifaceted


Same here - people often admire that about me. They don't used quite that expression - "two-faced" is what they usually say, but it's the same thing, isn't it?

Isn't it?


----------



## lostbear

bay20 said:


> i havnt read the whole of this thread yet but coming in at the end is like stepping into a room half way through a conversation and not knowing what people are talking about....hilarious. the posts have really been making me laugh...now time to find out whats really going on...*goes to page 1*


It has the added advantage of the conversation not suddenly stopping as everyone looks at you, and at each other, and then raising their eyebrows and sniggering. Happens to me a lot, that does, when I walk into a room.

Now that I'm getting a NO-NO, maybe it will happen a little less.


----------



## SusieRainbow

bay20 said:


> i havnt read the whole of this thread yet but coming in at the end is like stepping into a room half way through a conversation and not knowing what people are talking about....hilarious. the posts have really been making me laugh...now time to find out whats really going on...*goes to page 1*


I wpould strongly advise reading this thread with an empty bladder.


----------



## bay20

SusieRainbow said:


> I wpould strongly advise reading this thread with an empty bladder.


i was expecting talk of breeding great danes, health tests etc and got talk of No Nos, Chocolate trees, belgian chocolate labradors and people being called c**ts!  really have been laughing my a** off. cheered me right up. teach me to not start from the beginning lol


----------



## newfiesmum

lostbear said:


> Same here - people often admire that about me. They don't used quite that expression - "two-faced" is what they usually say, but it's the same thing, isn't it?
> 
> Isn't it?


Err.............................No:idea:


----------



## Nicky10

The original topic was so ridiculous that all the talk of square dogs made more sense . 

*walks off muttering about British imperialists making the world think we're the same* :001_tt2:.

Having seen a great dane alongside a husky today I honestly can't think of many breeds that look more different than each other. The dobermann didn't look terribly wolfy either.


----------



## Rafa

lostbear said:


> It has the added advantage of the conversation not suddenly stopping as everyone looks at you, and at each other, and then raising their eyebrows and sniggering. Happens to me a lot, that does, when I walk into a room.
> 
> Now that I'm getting a NO-NO, maybe it will happen a little less.


Oh No No, you are not getting a No-No.

You promised that NO-NO to Ouesi, didn't you? Yes Yes or No No?

Are you two faced or something? How is she supposed to keep her square, wolfish kids neatly shaven without that NO-NO?

(Especially when she's so very busy Coveting her Neighbour's Ass).


----------



## lostbear

SusieRainbow said:


> I wpould strongly advise reading this thread with an empty bladder.


Or a large bucket.


----------



## lostbear

Sweety said:


> Oh No No, you are not getting a No-No.
> 
> You promised that NO-NO to Ouesi, didn't you? Yes Yes or No No?
> *
> Are you two faced or something?* How is she supposed to keep her square, wolfish kids neatly shaven without that NO-NO?
> 
> (Especially when she's so very busy Coveting her Neighbour's Ass).


MULTI-FACETED!

I am multi-faceted.


----------



## lostbear

Nicky10 said:


> The original topic was so ridiculous that all the talk of square dogs made more sense .
> 
> *walks off muttering about *British imperialists* making the world think we're the same* :001_tt2:.
> 
> Having seen a great dane alongside a husky today I honestly can't think of many breeds that look more different than each other. The dobermann didn't look terribly wolfy either.


Stop whinging! We gave the world a delicious hard-surfaced, tooth-breaking tiny mint, without which no restaurant in Europe would be able to gracefully present a bill.


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> Stop whinging! We gave the world a delicious hard-surfaced, tooth-breaking tiny mint, without which no restaurant in Europe would be able to gracefully present a bill.


And you did popularise tea I suppose even if you turned into drug dealers to do it


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Release the ant eaters!!!

I think it's about time, probably.....


----------



## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Release the ant eaters!!!
> 
> I think it's about time, probably.....


You are right! We need out sticky-tongued beauties to restore order from the chaos of this thread. My only fear is that the OP (if s/he is still hanging around. and not sitting in a shed with a set-square and a chisel, knocking the edges off unsquared dobermans) would grab them for the protodog breeding programme. Their astonishing resemblance to wolves is legendary, and as guard animals they are without compare, being able to trip up an intruder from a distance of 50 yards and tie them up in their tongues before despatching them with their razor sharp claws, If OP breeds them with her danewolfmalamtedobermans (I suggest a 1/16th mix), s/he won't even have to worry about disposing of the bodies, and it will greatly reduce her pet food bill.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lostbear said:


> You are right! We need out sticky-tongued beauties to restore order from the chaos of this thread. My only fear is that the OP (if s/he is still hanging around. and not sitting in a shed with a set-square and a chisel, knocking the edges off unsquared dobermans) would grab them for the protodog breeding programme. Their astonishing resemblance to wolves is legendary, and as guard animals they are without compare, being able to trip up an intruder from a distance of 50 yards and tie them up in their tongues before despatching them with their razor sharp claws, If OP breeds them with her danewolfmalamtedobermans (I suggest a 1/16th mix), s/he won't even have to worry about disposing of the bodies, and it will greatly reduce her pet food bill.


Hmmmm, that is a concern, at a glance, they are obviously identical, although I'd rather face a pack of wolves than a single irate ant eater. Still, always nice to have one or two of them wandering around the place, as long as we keep them in a good mood, I'll donate my supply of recently *acquired* chocolate digestives to help keep harmony


----------



## lilythepink

I have to confess. I know the true identity of said OP. ...well, I remember his feet on here a few weeks back.


----------



## Colette

Nah, I see your puny anteater and raise you... A honeybadger!

Seriously, if the OP is after a well'ard guard dog a touch of honeybadger blood wouldn't go amiss. These guys will steal food from the mouths of deadly venomous snakes then eat the snake for dessert. Also good for reducing feeding costs.

They're pretty square too.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Colette said:


> Nah, I see your puny anteater and raise you... A honeybadger!
> 
> Seriously, if the OP is after a well'ard guard dog a touch of honeybadger blood wouldn't go amiss. These guys will steal food from the mouths of deadly venomous snakes then eat the snake for dessert. Also good for reducing feeding costs.
> 
> They're pretty square too.


Accurate apart from the square bit, they are trapezium shaped!!


----------



## lilythepink

Colette said:


> Nah, I see your puny anteater and raise you... A honeybadger!
> 
> Seriously, if the OP is after a well'ard guard dog a touch of honeybadger blood wouldn't go amiss. These guys will steal food from the mouths of deadly venomous snakes then eat the snake for dessert. Also good for reducing feeding costs.
> 
> They're pretty square too.


maybe, but to get real attitude you need a mini dachshund.


----------



## kodakkuki

lilythepink said:


> maybe, but to get real attitude you need a mini dachshund.


could always use my cat- she's got plenty going spare- so long as someone can lend her a uterus of course!!!!! then again, she changes shape- sometimes square, sometimes rectangular... other times she's cylinder shaped and really confuses me!!!!


----------



## Rafa

I very much like the idea of a honey badger/wolverine cross in this little mix. Vicious little feckers, both of them.


I am so still looking for vengeance on the Tesco Delivery Man.

I mean really, is it acceptable, when I've ordered Feminine Wipes, to bring me Furniture Wipes as a substitute?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Sweety said:


> I very much like the idea of a honey badger/wolverine cross in this little mix. Vicious little feckers, both of them.
> 
> I am so still looking for vengeance on the Tesco Delivery Man.
> 
> I mean really, is it acceptable, when I've ordered Feminine Wipes, to bring me Furniture Wipes as a substitute?


I suppose it depends on whether you think that pledge will give you the shine you were looking for!


----------



## Firedog

Sweety said:


> I very much like the idea of a honey badger/wolverine cross in this little mix. Vicious little feckers, both of them.
> 
> I am so still looking for vengeance on the Tesco Delivery Man.
> 
> I mean really, is it acceptable, when I've ordered Feminine Wipes, to bring me Furniture Wipes as a substitute?


I suppose that really depends on whether your downstairs needs cleaning.


----------



## Rafa

I was momentarily tempted to try them, just to see if they gave me that 'lemon fresh feeling', but decided not to risk it.


----------



## SusieRainbow

Sweety said:


> I very much like the idea of a honey badger/wolverine cross in this little mix. Vicious little feckers, both of them.
> 
> I am so still looking for vengeance on the Tesco Delivery Man.
> 
> I mean really, is it acceptable, when I've ordered Feminine Wipes, to bring me Furniture Wipes as a substitute?


If they were Mr Muscle I can understand your indignation !


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Sweety said:


> I was momentarily tempted to try them, just to see if they gave me that 'lemon fresh feeling', but decided not to risk it.


It depends on just how much dust has gathered, personally, I wouldn't be too proud, and just go for it.


----------



## Rafa

Oh yeah, but the worst bit was being forced to explain to the Delivery Man in detail why the things wouldn't do the job.

I could tell he thought I was being unreasonable.

I should have said "Oh really, well just slap your willy on the worktop whilst I spray it with furniture polish and see how you like it".

I didn't though, I'm far too refined for that.


----------



## Nicky10

No for true take on anything scariness you need a bird. Might I suggest a goose or possible a cassowary or maybe that rhea apparently wandering around england :001_unsure: with the added benefit of wings which makes anything so much cooler


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Sweety said:


> Oh yeah, but the worst bit was being forced to explain to the Delivery Man in detail why the things wouldn't do the job.
> 
> I could tell he thought I was being unreasonable.
> 
> I should have said "Oh really, well just slap your willy on the worktop whilst I spray it with furniture polish and see how you like it".
> 
> I didn't though, I'm far too refined for that.


You're far too *delicate*, you should have just said those things wouldn't buff your muff adequately! Although demanding he slap his *wooohooo* out on the work surface is a tad unhygienic!!


----------



## SusieRainbow

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You're far too *delicate*, you should have just said those things wouldn't buff your muff adequately! Although demanding he slap his *wooohooo* out on the work surface is a tad unhygienic!!


Maybe, but she has the furniture wipes to sanitise the area afterwards.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

SusieRainbow said:


> Maybe, but she has the furniature wipes to sanitise the area afterwards.


True, although I think I'd be a bit picky depending on the delivery driver.


----------



## Rafa

Nicky10 said:


> No for true take on anything scariness you need a bird. Might I suggest a goose or possible a cassowary or maybe that rhea apparently wandering around england :001_unsure: with the added benefit of wings which makes anything so much cooler


Or ....... Oooh, oooh, those skeletons that pop up out of the ground in Jason and the Argonauts. Those little beggars very nearly made me wet my pants.

I reckon a dozen of those popping up out of my drive would have made that Driver think twice about advancing on me, waving his packet of furniture wipes.


----------



## BessieDog

I'm really not quick enough to join in the repartee, but just wanted to let you all know I'm crying with laughter here!


----------



## lostbear

Sweety said:


> I very much like the idea of a honey badger/wolverine cross in this little mix. Vicious little feckers, both of them.
> 
> I am so still looking for vengeance on the Tesco Delivery Man.
> 
> *I mean really, is it acceptable, when I've ordered Feminine Wipes, to bring me Furniture Wipes as a substitute*?


*BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*

*Ahem*

Sorry. No. Not acceptable. (*stuffs hanky into mouth and staggers off, chortling*)


----------



## lostbear

Nicky10 said:


> No for true take on anything scariness you need a bird. Might I suggest a goose or possible a cassowary or maybe that rhea apparently wandering around england :001_unsure:* with the added benefit of wings which makes anything so much cooler*


Are we still on about the feminine wipes here?


----------



## bay20

I've been reading these out to my OH pi**ing myself laughing. Somehow it's not funny to someone else when you can't speak properly for laughing and they can't understand you


----------



## BessieDog

Furniture wipes could give a a Great Dane that extra shine?


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> Are we still on about the feminine wipes here?


:lol: Well if you want to risk putting a bird with sharp claws down there go right ahead.


----------



## Rafa

Well yes.

Are we ladies going to allow ourselves to be ordered by Tesco Delivery men to freshen ourselves with furniture wipes?

We do have rights you know. I heard on the grapevine that we're allowed to vote these days.

As far as the Tesco Man's willy is concerned, I also heard, (from a trusted source), that once you've seen one, you've seen them all.

Don't know whether that's true though. I may have to do some investigatory work, in the interests of Womankind, of course.


----------



## Guest

I :001_wub: this thread


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Sweety said:


> Well yes.
> 
> Are we ladies going to allow ourselves to be ordered by Tesco Delivery men to freshen ourselves with furniture wipes?
> 
> We do have rights you know. I heard on the grapevine that we're allowed to vote these days.
> 
> As far as the Tesco Man's willy is concerned, I also heard, (from a trusted source), that once you've seen one, you've seen them all.
> 
> Don't know whether that's true though. I may have to do some investigatory work, in the interests of Womankind, of course.


I hope, for the sake of science, that you will be comparing with other supermarket brands?


----------



## lilythepink

kodakkuki said:


> could always use my cat- she's got plenty going spare- so long as someone can lend her a uterus of course!!!!! then again, she changes shape- sometimes square, sometimes rectangular... other times she's cylinder shaped and really confuses me!!!!


your cat is a shape shifter............


----------



## lilythepink

Sweety said:


> Well yes.
> 
> Are we ladies going to allow ourselves to be ordered by Tesco Delivery men to freshen ourselves with furniture wipes?
> 
> We do have rights you know. I heard on the grapevine that we're allowed to vote these days.
> 
> As far as the Tesco Man's willy is concerned, I also heard, (from a trusted source), that once you've seen one, you've seen them all.
> 
> Don't know whether that's true though. I may have to do some investigatory work, in the interests of Womankind, of course.


furniture wipes.....wow, must get some. Do they deliver


----------



## lilythepink

Sweety said:


> Oh yeah, but the worst bit was being forced to explain to the Delivery Man in detail why the things wouldn't do the job.
> 
> I could tell he thought I was being unreasonable.
> 
> I should have said "Oh really, well just slap your willy on the worktop whilst I spray it with furniture polish and see how you like it".
> 
> I didn't though, I'm far too refined for that.


I am afraid if he had done that I would have been forced to get the iron out and iron him.


----------



## lilythepink

Nicky10 said:


> No for true take on anything scariness you need a bird. Might I suggest a goose or possible a cassowary or maybe that rhea apparently wandering around england :001_unsure: with the added benefit of wings which makes anything so much cooler


Like the idea of a cassowary....then we could eat it afterwards and plenty left for the dogs.

"Cassowary bird, can disembowel a man with one swipe of its claw...." doesn't say anything about disembowelling women and children though.:


----------



## lilythepink

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Accurate apart from the square bit, they are trapezium shaped!!


whats a trapezium(sp)? Is that something kids have for playing on in the garden?


----------



## lostbear

Nicky10 said:


> No for true take on anything scariness you need a bird. Might I suggest a goose or possible a cassowary or maybe that rhea apparently wandering around england :001_unsure: with the added benefit of wings which makes anything so much cooler


Just as a matter of interest, how did you explain to a strange man that furniture cleaners were not suitable to freshen up your lady parts?


----------



## lostbear

Sweety said:


> Or ....... Oooh, oooh, *those skeletons that pop up out of the ground in Jason and the Argonauts.* Those little beggars very nearly made me wet my pants.
> 
> I reckon a dozen of those popping up out of my drive would have made that Driver think twice about advancing on me, waving his packet of furniture wipes.


Those would be no good - the protodogs would just eat dem bones. (dem bones, dem bones, dem . . . dryyyyy bones, dem bo- )

Oh bugger - now that song it stick inme head!


----------



## lostbear

lilythepink said:


> Like the idea of a cassowary....then we could eat it afterwards and plenty left for the dogs.
> 
> "Cassowary bird, can disembowel a man with one swipe of its claw...." *doesn't say anything about disembowelling women and children though*.:


IT. WOULDN'T. DARE!!!

Us ladies can be quite terrifying, and when protecting our young . . .


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> Just as a matter of interest, how did you explain to a strange man that furniture cleaners were not suitable to freshen up your lady parts?


I think you quoted the wrong person


----------



## lostbear

Nicky10 said:


> I think you quoted the wrong person


Well spotted! Obviously I deliberately put that one in to see if anyone was really paying attention (*slinks off, humiliated*)


----------



## lostbear

lilythepink said:


> whats a trapezium(sp)? Is that something kids have for playing on in the garden?


CLose enough. It is a 4-sided geometrical figure with two opposite parallel sides and two opposite sides that veer away from each other, like Paris Hilton's legs.

So, depending on the age of your kids . . .


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Sweety said:


> Well yes.
> 
> Are we ladies going to allow ourselves to be ordered by Tesco Delivery men to freshen ourselves with furniture wipes?
> 
> We do have rights you know. I heard on the grapevine that we're allowed to vote these days.
> 
> *As far as the Tesco Man's willy is concerned, I also heard, (from a trusted source), that once you've seen one, you've seen them all.*
> 
> Don't know whether that's true though. I may have to do some investigatory work, in the interests of Womankind, of course.


I forgot to say, if you come across any square ones that would make for a very interesting scientific study! Square pegs and all that!!


----------



## lostbear

Sweety said:


> Oh yeah, but t*he worst bit was being forced to explain to the Delivery Man in detail why the things wouldn't do the job.
> *
> I could tell he thought I was being unreasonable.
> 
> I should have said "Oh really, well just slap your willy on the worktop whilst I spray it with furniture polish and see how you like it".
> 
> I didn't though, I'm far too refined for that.


THIS (above - cant work out how to do those useful little arrows so many people use) is what I should have quoted! Thank you, Quote Police, for saving me from myself (an awful job, but somebody has to)

Just as a matter of interest, how did you explain to a strange man that furniture cleaners were not suitable to freshen up your lady parts?
__________________


----------



## lilythepink

lostbear said:


> CLose enough. It is a 4-sided geometrical figure with two opposite parallel sides and two opposite sides that veer away from each other, like Paris Hilton's legs.
> 
> So, depending on the age of your kids . . .


lmao........not sure re geometrical....will have to find google to see what that means.


----------



## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I forgot to say, if you come across any square ones that would make for a very interesting scientific study! Square pegs and all that!!


Your quest for scientific truth is admirable. I salute you, as probably do deliverymen's willies the length and breadth of the land.

Hang on - this isn't anything to do with any secret plans, would it? I'd better zip my lip in case I let another rat out of the bag.


----------



## SusieRainbow

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I forgot to say, if you come across any square ones that would make for a very interesting scientific study! Square pegs and all that!!


I've heard that the square ones have all but disappeared since the out moding of the string vest ( REALLY showing my age here ! ) But as a former nurse I do know about these things.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lostbear said:


> Your quest for scientific truth is admirable. I salute you, as probably do deliverymen's willies the length and breadth of the land.
> 
> Hang on - this isn't anything to do with any secret plans, would it? I'd better zip my lip in case I let another rat out of the bag.


How did you find out about the rats??!!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

SusieRainbow said:


> I've heard that the square ones have all but disappeared since the out moding of the string vest ( REALLY showing my age here ! ) But *as a former nurse* I do know about these things.


Uhuh, that's what you're telling us, nudge, nudge, wink, wink


----------



## lilythepink

Sleeping_Lion said:


> How did you find out about the rats??!!


LB

sorry, SL.....she did it again.

can rats be part of the raw diet do you think?


----------



## kodakkuki

lostbear said:


> Your quest for scientific truth is admirable. I salute you, as probably do deliverymen's willies the length and breadth of the land.
> 
> Hang on - this isn't anything to do with any secret plans, would it? I'd better zip my lip in case I let *another rat out of the bag *.





Sleeping_Lion said:


> How did you find out about the rats??!!


oooh!!!! are you gonna be super sizing rats for us? i'll take 4 pony-rats please. (you could call the smaller ones in the litters shetlandrats rather than Teacups!)


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lilythepink said:


> LB
> 
> sorry, SL.....she did it again.
> 
> can rats be part of the raw diet do you think?


I know, I know, none of my nefarious plans are going to be *secret* for much longer! Rats are just that bit more biddable than ferrets, so fit my plans that much better, combine that with my ongoing scientific surveys, and I'll soon have an implanted rat in every delivery man (possibly woman) in the country!! Soon, I will have control over ALL your deliveries, mwahahahahaha

Oooh, sort of rambled on there a little bit .......


----------



## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> How did you find out about the rats??!!


I'd rather not say.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lostbear said:


> I'd rather not say.


That was YOU delivering that bag of rat food a week ago last Thursday?


----------



## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That was YOU delivering that bag of rat food a week ago last Thursday?


My lips are sealed. (Though they weren't then - that rat food is delicious!)


----------



## Nicky10

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That was YOU delivering that bag of rat food a week ago last Thursday?


You're not feeding them raw  after all they'll become dead bloodthirsty and vicious.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

lostbear said:


> My lips are sealed. (Though they weren't then - that rat food is delicious!)


Subject reference LB1329 successfully *implanted*, my plans are beginning to work! <insert evil cackle here> Well, one of them is, not so sure about the plans to use anteaters for a similar purpose, that wasn't quite so successful, interesting, but not as practical!


----------



## Nicky10

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Subject reference LB1329 successfully *implanted*, my plans are beginning to work! <insert evil cackle here> Well, one of them is, not so sure about the plans to use anteaters for a similar purpose, that wasn't quite so successful, interesting, but not as practical!


Well if that animal airport show is anything to go by, for even one of the smaller anteaters you need about 10 people, at least one riot shield and a guy clearly overacting the struggle to hold it down. So an army of the giant ones might do the trick.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Nicky10 said:


> Well if that animal airport show is anything to go by, for even one of the smaller anteaters you need about 10 people, at least one riot shield and a guy clearly overacting the struggle to hold it down. So an army of the giant ones might do the trick.


As I found out to my cost! I suspect pangolins may be more suitable, but haven't had chance to fully research the possibility yet......


----------



## LinznMilly

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I know, I know, none of my nefarious plans are going to be *secret* for much longer! Rats are just that bit more biddable than ferrets, so fit my plans that much better, combine that with my ongoing scientific *surveys, and I'll soon have an implanted rat in every delivery man (possibly woman) in the country*!! Soon, I will have control over ALL your deliveries, mwahahahahaha
> 
> Oooh, sort of rambled on there a little bit .......





Sleeping_Lion said:


> *Subject reference LB1329 successfully *implanted*, my plans are beginning to work*! <insert evil cackle here> Well, one of them is, not so sure about the plans to use anteaters for a similar purpose, that wasn't quite so successful, interesting, but not as practical!


Sounds painful


----------



## Nicky10

If we're going the armoured route might I suggest the epitome of a living tank









Granted you might need a tardis to find a few but I'm sure he's more manageable than an anteater.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Nicky10 said:


> If we're going the armoured route might I suggest the epitome of a living tank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Granted you might need a tardis to find a few but I'm sure he's more manageable than an anteater.


It's all very well suggesting armour plated animals for the insertion process, but it's the insertability that's the important factor, I'm pretty darned sure anyone would notice that creature in close proximity, even with the most advanced distraction techniques.

Funnily enough, LB didn't even need distracting, I glued a £1 coin to the floor and although she bent down and gave it a cursory inspection, she seemed to quite enjoy the experience, even held the *pose*, although I'd never insert more than one at a time, you'd be asking for trouble then over any of the food that makes it down that far.


----------



## Nicky10

You never know Houdini did manage to make an elephant disappear in front of a stadium full of people :001_huh:.

Perhaps something like a lungfish?


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Nicky10 said:


> You never know Houdini did manage to make an elephant disappear in front of a stadium full of people :001_huh:.
> 
> Perhaps something like a lungfish?


I had it on good authority it was the other way around, the elephant was most surprised when a whole stadium of people disappeared! He was looking forward to getting a few peanuts and friendly pats.

Unfortunately, unless the recipient of the implant is a tee-totaller, I've found that implanting fish can be a little risky. The last thing you want wriggling about in there is a drunken lung fish.


----------



## lilythepink

lostbear said:


> I'd rather not say.


I confess..I told her.


----------



## lilythepink

Nicky10 said:


> You never know Houdini did manage to make an elephant disappear in front of a stadium full of people :001_huh:.
> 
> Perhaps something like a lungfish?


Can you eat lungfish?


----------



## lilythepink

do fish actually live in lungs...implanted or not?


----------



## Nicky10

lilythepink said:


> do fish actually live in lungs...implanted or not?


No but there are quite a few that can breathe air, bettas/siamese fighting fish being the best well known.

Lungfish can live out of water for quite a while


----------



## simplysardonic

Nicky10 said:


> No but there are quite a few that can breathe air, *bettas/siamese fighting fish being the best well known.*
> 
> Lungfish can live out of water for quite a while


I didn't know this until the other day (I'm researching Bettas as my daughter would like one) but looking at them, they do have very similar features to the bigger lungfish 

ETA as in facial features!


----------



## Nicky10

simplysardonic said:


> I didn't know this until the other day (I'm researching Bettas as my daughter would like one) but looking at them, they do have very similar features to the bigger lungfish


Just don't put them in a tiny bowl apparently they're at their best in a planted tank with room to swim.

Bettas have a labyrinth organ and lungfish have something closer to amphibian lungs, I think.


----------



## lilythepink

simplysardonic said:


> I didn't know this until the other day (I'm researching Bettas as my daughter would like one) but looking at them, they do have very similar features to the bigger lungfish
> 
> ETA as in facial features!


I have a siamese fighting fish. Very posh he is, blues and purples but he is just the ordinary siamese, you can get some really fancy ones now.


----------



## simplysardonic

Nicky10 said:


> *Just don't put them in a tiny bowl* apparently they're at their best in a planted tank with room to swim.
> 
> Bettas have a labyrinth organ and lungfish have something closer to amphibian lungs, I think.


Goodness I'd never do that  bowls are one of my pet hates for any fish species!


----------



## Nicky10

simplysardonic said:


> Goodness I'd never do that  bowls are one of my pet hates for any fish species!


Because they can breathe air and there's a "fact" that they live in puddles, during the dry season only they normally live in flooded rice paddies, plenty of people do .

I've been considering one too I love the look of the show males


----------



## lilythepink

simplysardonic said:


> Goodness I'd never do that  bowls are one of my pet hates for any fish species!


I have a snail tank, loads of plastic plants and rocks and a couple of other bits and a couple of bottom feeders and then the siamese fighter. In a 190 juwel trigon.

I prefer real plants but we had nothing but trouble with real ones rotting and poisoning the water and the snails ate them.


----------



## simplysardonic

Nicky10 said:


> Because they can breathe air and there's a "fact" that they live in puddles, during the dry season only they normally live in flooded rice paddies, plenty of people do .
> 
> I've been considering one too I love the look of the show males


That's what my daughter wants, I've said she can have a single male in a planted tank, I don't feel confident enough to have one in a community tank, even with peaceful species.


----------



## LinznMilly

Nicky10 said:


> Because they can breathe air and there's a "fact" that they live in puddles, during the dry season only they normally live in flooded rice paddies, plenty of people do .
> 
> I've been considering one too I love the look of the show males





lilythepink said:


> I have a snail tank, loads of plastic plants and rocks and a couple of other bits and a couple of bottom feeders and then the siamese fighter. *In a 190 juwel trigon.*
> 
> I prefer real plants but we had nothing but trouble with real ones rotting and poisoning the water and the snails ate them.





simplysardonic said:


> That's what my daughter wants, I've said she can have a single male in a planted tank, I don't feel confident enough to have one in a community tank, even with peaceful species.


Shouldn't be surprised really, but just wanted you all to know it's really refreshing to see people who actually know what they're talking about RE SFF. I've had them, bred them, and recently rescued another veiltail male who was in the same tank with Gouramis,  but it's staggering how many will have them in a tiny bowl "because they live in puddles, don't they?"

SS, they should do fine in any sized heated/filtered tank - just like any other tropical fish, just so long as the current isn't crazy. Mine's in a 25gal tank with an Eheim Aquaball filter.

Cories, Bristlenosed plecs, other bottom feeders should be compatible. They're territorial - not sadistic  They'll flare/attack anything that fits the profile of another fighter/anabantid - ie, bright colours, long fins, etc.

Must dash, but if you want to know more about SFF, feel free to PM me


----------



## lostbear

How I love this forum. An innocent enquiry re: the coloration of a 12 week puppy, expands into an entire breeding programme for "protodogs", and via an anteater saga and plans for world domination, not to mention further breeding programmes of produce "sherry-glass" great danes and the world's first rideable rat, and incorporating industrial espionage, time-travel, and probably a few diplomatic incidents of the type you usually get when upsetting Americans and importing ankylosaurs, we have seamlessly got onto the subject of air-breathing fish and their largely-unrecognised passion for crown green bowls. And along the way we have managed to include muff-buffing, the sheer uselessness of delivery men, wolverines for fun and profit, and a healthy sprinkling of personal insult.

Only in England! No wonder I am so proud of out island race!

(Re: 'dropped coins' - many years ago I had am embarrassing situation in Marks and Spencers with a dropped coin.

I had been to the university library - my backpack was full of very heavy books - and I mean FULL. I could hardly lift it. I had gone to M and S to get a banana for my lunch, and as I was walking away from the till - there is was , on the floor - a POUND!

MyGod - a pound - a POUND!!! Hoping no-one saw it first, I sidled casually over, bent down and retrieved it and straightened up - except that I didn't straighten up. I couldn't. The weight of my backpack had me squashed down like - like a pangolin with a Very Heavy Thing on its back. Curled and crushed I could neither stand, sit, nor even fall over. Nor could I reach the straps to loosen and remove my rucksack. I had to whimper pathetically until two burly male staff members were summoned to link me under my arms and hoick me back onto my feet. They couldn't keep their laugh in (and nor could I or my audience of lunchtime shoppers). I was raised triumphantly clutching my pound.

The worst thing is - I would do it again if the opportunity arose. It was a POUND after all.)


----------



## BessieDog

simplysardonic said:


> Goodness I'd never do that  bowls are one of my pet hates for any fish species!


Goldfish bowls (the traditional ones) are banned in many countries. Unfortunately not here where you can still win a goldfish at fairs. Barbaric!


----------



## lostbear

BessieDog said:


> Goldfish bowls (the traditional ones) are banned in many countries. Unfortunately not here where you can still win a goldfish at fairs. Barbaric!


The worst thing I have ever seen was a craze a few years ago for 'mini-fish tanks' - they were a glass container - quite literally a 2" cube, containing a couple of bits of gravel, a tiny plastic plant and a single white cloud mountain minnow or neon tetra.

Can you imaging the stress for any fish, never mind one that lives in large shoals, in a situation like this? Terrible. I can't imagine many of them survived more than a day or two. Happily the fad didn't last long and the sodding things disappeared from market stalls almost overnight. I wonder if someone caused a loud embarrassing fuss in the Metrocentre (*looks at sky and whistles innocently*). I think the RSPCA and the papers might have got a letter as well.


----------



## Nicky10

BessieDog said:


> Goldfish bowls (the traditional ones) are banned in many countries. Unfortunately not here where you can still win a goldfish at fairs. Barbaric!


I actually took two of those home about a year ago, they for all they were likely terribly bred still swam better than most fancies. Bowls are horrific for most fish but especially those that get a foot long.


----------



## lilythepink

I have seen plenty siamese in aquarium shops in tiny little boxes of water without anything else in the tiny tank, all next to each other, all getting stressed up and trying to threaten each other.

I have even seen them for sale and offered by post. One of my daughters works for Post office, she rang me one morning to say they had a small package that leaked all over the floor. They opened it and inside were 7 individually wrapped SFF. Unbelievably, they were still alive.

each fish was in a small plastic bag filled with water.


----------



## Nicky10

lilythepink said:


> I have seen plenty siamese in aquarium shops in tiny little boxes of water without anything else in the tiny tank, all next to each other, all getting stressed up and trying to threaten each other.
> 
> I have even seen them for sale and offered by post. One of my daughters works for Post office, she rang me one morning to say they had a small package that leaked all over the floor. They opened it and inside were 7 individually wrapped SFF. Unbelievably, they were still alive.
> 
> each fish was in a small plastic bag filled with water.


I can understand it in shops, you can't really keep the males with many other fish and they're moved on quite fast hopefully to a proper tank so why would they set up hundreds of individual tanks for them. It's when the new owners see that as acceptable long term keeping it becomes a problem. Fish are shipped by post all the time in the US and as long as they're packaged properly they should be fine with overnight delivery. Unfortunately most people don't see fish as pets just some sort of decoration so whether it's bowls or those god awful jdm tanks for big fish where they cram as many fish into a tiny tank as they can and claim it's all good because they're overfiltered people just don't care the way they would with a furred creature.


----------



## simplysardonic

LinznMilly said:


> Shouldn't be surprised really, but just wanted you all to know it's really refreshing to see people who actually know what they're talking about RE SFF. I've had them, bred them, and recently rescued another veiltail male who was in the same tank with Gouramis,  but it's staggering how many will have them in a tiny bowl "because they live in puddles, don't they?"
> 
> SS, they should do fine in any sized heated/filtered tank - just like any other tropical fish, just so long as the current isn't crazy. Mine's in a 25gal tank with an Eheim Aquaball filter.
> 
> Cories, Bristlenosed plecs, other bottom feeders should be compatible. They're territorial - not sadistic  They'll flare/attack anything that fits the profile of another fighter/anabantid - ie, bright colours, long fins, etc.
> 
> Must dash, but if you want to know more about SFF, feel free to PM me


Thankyou


----------



## Taylorbaby

This thread cheered me up! 

Although it is sad what the OP is intending to do, there are many 'wolf look a like' breeds out there, without starting a new one with a great dane?!


----------



## Wiz201

Sorry left this thread for a while, but looking at the number of posts, I think the OP has left us.


----------



## Rafa

Wiz201 said:


> Sorry left this thread for a while, but looking at the number of posts, I think the OP has left us.


Really? I wonder why? 

We could not have been more supportive and congratulatory could we?

We could scarcely hide our admiration for her and her crackpot breeding plans.

Oh well, there's just no pleasing some people.


----------



## Emmastace

OK....I lost the will to read any more about page 3......but the thing I am struggling with is the pics.......cos I can't see a Great Dane puppy. I know I am no expert on the breed but that head isn't like any Dane I have ever seen.


----------



## Guest

Emmastace said:


> OK....I lost the will to read any more about page 3......but the thing I am struggling with is the pics.......cos I can't see a Great Dane puppy. I know I am no expert on the breed but that head isn't like any Dane I have ever seen.


Definitely have to read past p. 3 to get the proper effect 

The breed standard does call for danes to have a square head. :lol: :lol:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

ouesi said:


> Definitely have to read past p. 3 to get the proper effect
> 
> The breed standard does call for danes to have a square head. :lol: :lol:


Gawd, here we go with geometrical shapes *again*!!


----------



## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Gawd, here we go with geometrical shapes *again*!!


Just what have you got against geometry?

Algebra, now - that is worthy of contempt. And venn diagrams


----------



## Nicky10

Emmastace said:


> OK....I lost the will to read any more about page 3......but the thing I am struggling with is the pics.......cos I can't see a Great Dane puppy. I know I am no expert on the breed but that head isn't like any Dane I have ever seen.


Keep reading it starts actually making more sense after a while :lol:.


----------



## Katherna

Nicky10 said:


> If we're going the armoured route might I suggest the epitome of a living tank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Granted you might need a tardis to find a few but I'm sure he's more manageable than an anteater.


Could you breed me a teacup sized one? I'll pay you £2 for it and then breed it with -










It'll add the square shape to the breed.


----------



## Nicky10

Katherna said:


> Could you breed me a teacup sized one? I'll pay you £2 for it and then breed it with -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It'll add the square shape to the breed.


Here you go :thumbup1: 


Guaranteed to stay that size of course. Do let me know how the breeding programme goes.


----------



## Katherna

Nicky10 said:


> Here you go :thumbup1:
> 
> 
> Guaranteed to stay that size of course. Do let me know how the breeding programme goes.


It's going slowly, here's one of the first prototypes


----------



## Nicky10

I think we could really corner the market on this you know. Who wouldn't want a tiny dinosaur in their house :laugh:. You appear to have managed to turn him into a whole other species though, that looks like a stegasaurus

*desperately wants that baby anklysaur I posted*


----------



## Katherna

Nicky10 said:


> I think we could really corner the market on this you know. Who wouldn't want a tiny dinosaur in their house :laugh:. You appear to have managed to turn him into a whole other species though, that looks like a stegasaurus
> 
> *desperately wants that baby anklysaur I posted*


It was an F1 tbh and some looked more spiny than others, anyways the next set are better, the spines are smaller, theres squaredness involved and chocolate 










Now who wouldn't want one of those!


----------



## Nicky10

Everyone is going to want one. Maybe we could even outcross to those chocolate labs, make them good with children.


----------



## lostbear

Nicky10 said:


> Keep reading it starts actually making more sense after a while :lol:.


If it starts to make sense, then you really have to worry.


----------



## lostbear

Katherna said:


> Could you breed me a teacup sized one? *I'll pay you £2 for it* and then breed it with -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It'll add the square shape to the breed.


£2!!!!!!

That is sooooo tempting . . .


----------



## lostbear

Katherna said:


> It was an F1 tbh and some looked more spiny than others, anyways the next set are better, the spines are smaller, theres squaredness involved and chocolate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now who wouldn't want one of those!


Why are his test icicles on his tail? Or - perhaps it isn't a tail?


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> Why are his test icicles on his tail? Or - perhaps it isn't a tail?


He had a club on the end of his tail. I hope that's what they are :scared:. Those creationists convinced we hunted the dinosaurs to extinction always amuse me. The herbivores looked like him and triceratops and they had some of the top carnivores that ever lived like t-rex and they think we could have even made a dent in them

I did say more sense :lol:


----------



## Guest

"test icicles :lol: :lol:
Best autocorrect ever!!


----------



## Katherna

lostbear said:


> Why are his test icicles on his tail? Or - perhaps it isn't a tail?


It's so that the vet can find them easily if they need removing. :scared:


----------



## SusieRainbow

Now if we could chuck one of these into the mix - so teeny and so CUTE !!!!

BBC News - Spain: Endangered hamster-sized deer born in zoo


----------



## Nicky10

SusieRainbow said:


> Now if we could chuck one of these into the mix - so teeny and so CUTE !!!!
> 
> BBC News - Spain: Endangered hamster-sized deer born in zoo


:001_wub: I'm sure it's possible they might come out a bit spikey though


----------



## lostbear

Katherna said:


> It's so that the vet can find them easily if they need removing. :scared:


f course! How foolish of moi - in those bygone days there were no general anaesthetics (other than being hit on the head with a rock), and neutering an active dinosaur would be pretty difficult - so nature compensates by putting its ands in an accessible place. Amazing - nature is AMAZING!


----------



## Rafa

lostbear said:


> f course! How foolish of moi - in those bygone days there were no general anaesthetics (other than being hit on the head with a rock), and neutering an active dinosaur would be pretty difficult - so nature compensates by putting its ands in an accessible place. Amazing - nature is AMAZING!


I'm afraid I have to correct this statement.

The Test Icicles on the Dinosaur are on the end of the tail for a very particular reason.

The Pet Dinosaur can be a wilful little chap and teaching recall can be difficult. He can have a tendency to chase other creatures, in particular, his Nemesis, The Doyouthinkhesaurus.

In times of heedlessness, a quick stamp on the end of the tail is guaranteed to get your Dinosaur's attention and also, his eyes will water so much, he will be unable to focus on his intended prey.


----------



## Nicky10

Having spoken to the dinosaur in question she's rather offended you think she would be that stupid. Yes she, she accepts she's not the most feminine of creatures. After all she lives in a world with some of the top predators evolution ever created no female would have something so vulnerable. The males maybe which is why she needs the club to smack some sense into them.


----------



## Katherna

Here are some others from the litter :thumbsup:










There's definitely a doggy dino hybrid happening although no 2 are alike ... where do we go from here?


----------



## Nicky10

Hmm well you expect variation in the first few generations. We'll just have to work on it. At least they all seem to be herbivores except for the t rex glhybrids we night have to watch them


----------



## Katherna

The rex hybrids also have arms ... they might be useful for 'guarding' though? they're very fast if they grab something they shouldn't and with those arms they can get things like you wouldn't believe.
The herbivore ones are slower moving, with a tendency to eat anything that is green in colour.


----------



## Nicky10

Yes but there are several movies detailing exactly why trying to keep a t rex is slightly idiotic. I suppose we could try to tame them. The herbivores might be better guards, all that armour and they can just stomp over anyone who tried to break in.


----------



## Katherna

Nicky10 said:


> Yes but there are several movies detailing exactly why trying to keep a t rex is slightly idiotic. I suppose we could try to tame them. The herbivores might be better guards, all that armour and they can just stomp over anyone who tried to break in.


now with a few million years of breeding we may just get that wolfy dog ... maybe we could end up with one of these - they're a teacup size atm, but we could get them bigger I'm sure.


----------



## Rafa

Katherna said:


> Here are some others from the litter :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's definitely a doggy dino hybrid happening although no 2 are alike ... where do we go from here?


These are a nice litter. I'm getting an essence of terrierness from them, but let's be careful we don't lose the Squareness.

We must stay focused, or anything could happen.

I mean, Heaven forbid we should end up with something that looks ridiculous.


----------



## Katherna

Sweety - I've had to start at the 'teacup' size as I don't have 40 acres for them to roam on, figured we could breed the larger ones together and hopefully they'll get bigger or we could just throw in the great dane now and see what happens? what do you think? we can file down the edges and get the 'square' back again


----------



## Nicky10

I'm sure they don't need much room unless we're breeding something like a titanasaur . But teacup anything is always more appealing


----------



## Katherna

Nicky we can sell them at twice the price if we advertise them as 'teacup' don't forget. A teacup dogasaur - new dog breed :thumbsup:


----------



## Nicky10

And no health tests needed of course they're all natural so can't get sick :thumbsup:


----------



## Katherna

How much would we sell the vet checked dogasaurus for? (if we could get a vet to check them). And who would we sell them to?


----------



## Nicky10

I'm sure a reptile or bird vet could take a look if not we'll no one's going to check are they . I suppose we really should sell to good homes but as long as they're willing to pay they'll take good care of then right


----------



## Old Shep

Hey! Pit me down for one!

Oh, go on then. I'll take two. They'll be friends for each other.


----------



## Katherna

The possibilities are endless - shark x dog, turtle x, zebra x.
All teacup of course, rare colours too don't forget that one, and an amount of squarish tendencies.
we could make a fortune!


----------



## Nicky10

We have to sell some of them in at least pairs some are herd animals of course. Can't sell you a t rex and a anklysaurus though that wouldn't end well


----------



## Katherna

Old shep which type would you like? You will look after it won't you cos we don't want it back if it grows too big or destroys the house. you'll have to negotiate the price with Nicky.


----------



## Nicky10

Oh a shark x dinosaur that sounds good, teacup of course and guaranteed not to attack anyone


----------



## Old Shep

Oh, I promise I'll look after it! I will love them to bits and buy them lots of toys.

I'll pay whatever it costs,after al, I, getting such a rare breed! My friends will be green with envy when I walk down the street with them on their lovely new leads. 


Will you take them back if they misbehave, though?


----------



## Nicky10

Sorry we won't take them back but I can recommend a good trainer. Just don't try to force them to do anything you don't want them to we won't be held responsible for any injuries. 

Maybe £900 and we'll give you a discount for the second one of course.


----------



## Katherna

They're well behaved! Used to children, cats, livestock etc; well socialised, friendly .... what more do you want in a rare breed? you WILL be the envy of your friends, although might i suggest using a chain lead rather than a webbing one they tend to eat those.


----------



## Nicky10

We can't take them back for very good reason of course. Even these teacups need a lot of care you understand so to take on added dinosaurs would mean sacrificing their care I swear :aureola:


----------



## lostbear

Katherna said:


> Here are some others from the litter :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's definitely a doggy dino hybrid happening although no 2 are alike ... where do we go from here?


WOW!!!!!

Genetics gets more spooky by the minute!


----------



## lostbear

Sweety said:


> These are a nice litter. I'm getting an essence of terrierness from them, but *let's be careful we don't lose the Squareness.
> 
> We must stay focused, or anything could happen*.
> 
> I mean, Heaven forbid we should end up with something that looks ridiculous.


Good thinking - this is why I will never breed - I lose sight of the goal of universal cuboidness because I get overexcited when I see scaly darlings such as these.


----------



## Katherna

There is a small problem with the 'squareness' isn't there. Points, triangles, curves those are easy to get but the square isn't easy to get. Extra legs and eyes also seem to be coming through ... any ideas how to get the square dog back again?


----------



## astro2011

How do you even know your Great Dane is pure if it's not registered?


----------



## SpWaMC

Sweety said:


> Really? I wonder why?
> 
> We could not have been more supportive and congratulatory could we?
> 
> We could scarcely hide our admiration for her and her crackpot breeding plans.
> 
> Oh well, there's just no pleasing some people.


I'm still around. I simply don't care to respond to the dozens of pages of implicitly foolish responses.


----------



## lostbear

SpWaMC said:


> I'm still around. I simply don't care to respond to the dozens of pages of implicitly foolish responses.


Well, you started it!


----------



## lostbear

astro2011 said:


> How do you even know your Great Dane is pure if it's not registered?


At only a few months old she's still a virgin. Can't get much purer than that.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

So now we're talking about Virgin Square Great Danes?

Oh, I say....

Who wants to sort the ad for fb? I'll do it if you want!


----------



## lostbear

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> So now we're talking about Virgin Square Great Danes?
> 
> Oh, I say....
> 
> *Who wants to sort the ad for fb? I'll do it if you want!*


Go for it!

It sounds like it could justify a thread of its very own. Hahahahahaha:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel

Gosh you are a rowdy, unhelpful bunch.

All the OP wants is a square Danewolf. Surely, NOT an unreasonable breeding goal by any stretch of the imagination.

I want one, too. In fact, I'd like one where the squarishness is complimented by both gills and flippers....no, wait, I retract....not flippers - WINGS!

A square FLYING wolfdane. Tangerine stripes - or was it spots ?- and teacupishness an optional, not included in the price, extra. 

Should be a cinch to breed and I am signing up NOW for one. You snooze, ya lose. To whom may I send my cheque OP? Please ignore the closed-minded, puerile posse you encountered on here. Totally devoid of vision. Shocking people.


----------



## Guest

SpWaMC said:


> I'm still around. I simply don't care to respond to the dozens of pages of implicitly foolish responses.


Foolish responses? Pfft... you have no appreciation of wit, parody, and satire 

Not to mention, you were obviously paying enough attention to the thread to notice the post about you still being around and respond to it


----------



## lostbear

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Gosh you are a rowdy, unhelpful bunch.
> 
> *All the OP wants is a square Danewolf. Surely, NOT an unreasonable breeding goal by any stretch of the imagination.*
> You are right - I feel ashamed . . .
> 
> I want one, too. In fact, I'd like one where the squarishness is complimented by both gills and *flippers....no, wait, I retract....not flippers - WINGS!*
> What about wings that double as flippers, like wot penguins have? I'm sure that with a bit of selective breeding we could produce some with retractable pinions so that they could be used both underwater and in the air.
> The gills may be harder - we might have to slip a lungfish into the equation to enable both air- and waterbreathingness. This will increase the cuteosity, though, so will be worth the effort.
> 
> Just look at that smile - who could resist?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though someone may have beaten us to it - OP - is that you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A square FLYING wolfdane. Tangerine stripes - or was it spots ?- and teacupishness an optional, not included in the price, extra.
> 
> Should be a cinch to breed and I am signing up NOW for one. You snooze, ya lose. To whom may I send my cheque OP? Please ignore the closed-minded, puerile posse you encountered on here. Totally devoid of vision. Shocking people.


All monies come to me. Banker's order only, or gold - no cheques - been caught like that before!


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel

lostbear said:


> All monies come to me. Banker's order only, or gold - no cheques - been caught like that before!


Gold you want?

Regrettably, no can do. My usually vast reservoir of gold is temporarily depleted. Would home grown leeks and a pidgeon I lassoed in the garden earlier be an acceptable substitute?

Hold it - the pidgeon is OFF the table. What am I supposed to feed my impending square hybrid? A diet consisting exclusively of delivery men & elks is likely inappropriate and insufficient. Requires the odd supplementation via pideons and other assorted fowl, surely. Perhaps I even need the leeks? Pondering this, hmmm.....

How about just a hearty handshake and my undying love n'devotion for your breeding prowess?

Pretty please?

Either way, I am buoyed by the fact that you seemingly repent your prior narrow mindedness. Repent, o ye of little faith and lack of innovative breeding vision.


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> All monies come to me. Banker's order only, or gold - no cheques - been caught like that before!


I always wanted an axolotl :001_tt1:. Of course we could breed him in, after all don't dogs sort of have the same condition that keeps him in the juvenile form? That they retain cub characteristics? It shouldn't be too difficult to breed a dog that can live underwater.

Is it a school holiday in the US or something? That the op suddenly reappears to mock everyone


----------



## lostbear

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Gold you want?
> 
> Regrettably, no can do. My usually vast reservoir of gold is temporarily depleted. Would home grown leeks and *a pidgeon* I lassoed in the garden earlier be an acceptable substitute?
> Mmmm - pidgeon . . . depends on variety - feathered rat or wood?
> 
> Hold it - *the pidgeon is OFF the table. *
> They move like lightening, don't they - where is it now? Top of the curtains, I bet!
> 
> *What am I supposed to feed my impending square hybrid?* A diet consisting exclusively of delivery men & elks is likely inappropriate and insufficient.
> Chips. They like chips. And elks are highly nutritious. Be careful with delivery men. Too many can cause "Yodelvan tummy" - you wait all day for it to do a poo, and then the minute you pop out to the shops it delivers three at once and leaves them in the most awkward place.
> 
> Requires the odd supplementation via pideons and other assorted fowl, surely. Perhaps I even need the leeks? Pondering this, hmmm.....
> 
> *How about just a hearty handshake and my undying love n'devotion for your breeding prowess?*
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> 
> (*wipes tears of uncontrollable laughter from eyes*)
> 
> Honestly - it's the way you tell 'em.
> 
> *Pretty please?*
> no,
> 
> Either way, I am buoyed by the fact that you seemingly repent your prior narrow mindedness. Repent, o ye of little faith and lack of innovative breeding vision.





Nicky10 said:


> I always wanted an axolotl :001_tt1:. Of course we could breed him in, after all don't dogs sort of have the same condition that keeps him in the juvenile form? That they retain cub characteristics? It shouldn't be too difficult to breed a dog that can live underwater.
> 
> *Is it a school holiday in the US or something? *That the op suddenly reappears to mock everyone


Probably a day trip from the asylum - they'll be having a "Big Bucket o' Bird Bits" with supersize fries and a gallon of coke at some internet cafe place. I expect.


----------



## lilythepink

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> So now we're talking about Virgin Square Great Danes?
> 
> Oh, I say....
> 
> Who wants to sort the ad for fb? I'll do it if you want!


Oh my...command the highest prices for such a rare thing...we will all be wanting 1 or 2.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel

@ lostbear.

TOTALLY forgot to congratulate you. Remiss of me, forgive please.

I VERY much like where you are going with this: flipper-wings. Presumably yielding a sort of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang dog capable of becoming airborne AND suitable for underwater submarine use. Genius! Now we are talking.

Am I the ONLY one suddenly regretting spending so much time on this planet with non-square, non airworthy dogs? Snore inducing creatures if one fully explores the cornucopia of possible alternatives. They don't even have square eyes, the boring critters. Nuthin'. 

Deeeepressing.


----------



## Katherna

Finally managed a perfect 'teacup great dane'










also got a sort of dragon dog - it has wings!









dogasaurus









Also got this one as well ... dunno what to call it though ... an ECO dog?


----------



## Nicky10

Oh I like the look of that last one. If he's photosynthetic then think of the money you'd save on food bills :thumbup1:


----------



## lilythepink

I will take the proper great dane please


----------



## lilythepink

Just a thought....will this F1 hybrid will be of no use will it? what are the rules regarding hybrids being fertile?

Is there any other way we could make money apart from breeding from them?

What about circus attractions?....Barnum and son?


----------



## Rafa

I'll take one of the Great Danes please and a Wolf, if you have one in stock.

I'm going to produce all sorts of new breeds and sell them on my own website, which will be called Pups'R Us.

It's a very exciting time for me. I can't wait to get started.


----------



## Nicky10

lilythepink said:


> Just a thought....will this F1 hybrid will be of no use will it? what are the rules regarding hybrids being fertile?
> 
> Is there any other way we could make money apart from breeding from them?
> 
> What about circus attractions?....Barnum and son?


No don't be silly hybrid vigour will make sure it all works out :yesnod:.

Although a circus act may not be a bad idea. They're of course very trainable and would love it.


----------



## Katherna

If the 'eco' dog has the plant like properties we could trim it and plant up the trimmings and hopefully they'll grow - just add water!


----------



## lilythepink

Katherna said:


> If the 'eco' dog has the plant like properties we could trim it and plant up the trimmings and hopefully they'll grow - just add water!


fantastic.....why didn't I think of that.


----------



## Meezey

*snorts* just love that this thread is still running along this vein lol


----------



## Nicky10

Meezey said:


> *snorts* just love that this thread is still running along this vein lol


It's just so much more fun than the original topic. And it was the op dragged it back up again, I suspect a thing for humiliation


----------



## Rafa

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Gosh you are a rowdy, unhelpful bunch.
> 
> All the OP wants is a square Danewolf. Surely, NOT an unreasonable breeding goal by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> I want one, too. In fact, I'd like one where the squarishness is complimented by both gills and flippers....no, wait, I retract....not flippers - WINGS!
> 
> A square FLYING wolfdane. Tangerine stripes - or was it spots ?- and teacupishness an optional, not included in the price, extra.
> 
> Should be a cinch to breed and I am signing up NOW for one. You snooze, ya lose. To whom may I send my cheque OP? Please ignore the closed-minded, puerile posse you encountered on here. Totally devoid of vision. Shocking people.


I MUST have one of these too to add to me collection.

I will pay stupid amounts of money for such a thing. Oooh, oooh, no, I want two. I want to breed them and turn all the youngsters loose in my garden.

Just think of the warm glow all that tangerineness will create in the dark. I won't need solar lights.


----------



## lilythepink

Humiliation...is that the new name of the new breed?


----------



## Rafa

lostbear said:


> All monies come to me. Banker's order only, or gold - no cheques - been caught like that before!


That Lungfish ain't square.

How can you ever hope to become famous as an Accredited Breeder of the Pet Forums Protodog if you can't pay attention to such things?

I'm disappointed, I really am.


----------



## Nicky10

It seem there's already a mostly square fish and just think of the colour variation should we include him


----------



## Rafa

Nicky10 said:


> It seem there's already a mostly square fish and just think of the colour variation should we include him


It's an attractive fish alright, but does anyone else think it looks like Victoria Beckham, what with all that pouting?


----------



## lilythepink

Sweety said:


> That Lungfish ain't square.
> 
> How can you ever hope to become famous as an Accredited Breeder of the Pet Forums Protodog if you can't pay attention to such things?
> 
> I'm disappointed, I really am.


I want to be an accredited breeder.....but do I have to breed in order to be one?


----------



## Katherna

What about instead of a greatdane we use a st bernard and cross it with a bear? It's got squareness, furry, working and guarding ability and ... it still looks dog like


----------



## lilythepink

Katherna said:


> What about instead of a greatdane we use a st bernard and cross it with a bear? It's got squareness, furry, working and guarding ability and ... it still looks dog like


will it fit in a tea cup?


----------



## Katherna

lilythepink said:


> will it fit in a tea cup?


Depends how big your teacup is, lol.

Theres always these little chaps, almost fit in a teacup


----------



## lilythepink

Katherna said:


> Depends how big your teacup is, lol.
> 
> Theres always these little chaps, almost fit in a teacup


cuteness on 4 legs or what? do they bite?


----------



## Katherna

Only if you stick your hand in their mouths. they are really cute and also make a yappy woof sound.


----------



## Old Shep

Katherna said:


> What about instead of a greatdane we use a st bernard and cross it with a bear? It's got squareness, furry, working and guarding ability and ... it still looks dog like


Please excuse my great ignorance- and I may deeply regret asking this- but what is that? Is it real?


----------



## Old Shep

I regret it already!!

I can now see what it is!

And I am an idiot!!! 

Officially!!!


----------



## Rafa

Katherna said:


> What about instead of a greatdane we use a st bernard and cross it with a bear? It's got squareness, furry, working and guarding ability and ... it still looks dog like


Ooooh, yes!

Just look at all that tangerineness.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel

Katherna said:


> What about instead of a greatdane we use a st bernard and cross it with a bear? It's got squareness, furry, working and guarding ability and ... it still looks dog like


Squareness?

Nice try, Buster! Trying to pull a fast one, ey?

A blind bat could see that this is a decidedly UN-square, distinctly rectangle creature.

People blatantly try to scam you left, right and center these days. .....

Know that YOU will NOT be the lucky recipient of my substantial downpayment consisting of leeks and pidgeons.

I want a flying wolfdane, damnit! Square. WITH tangerine stripes. So away with your imposter hybrid....be gone, cheating beezlebub!


----------



## Rafa

lilythepink said:


> I want to be an accredited breeder.....but do I have to breed in order to be one?


Yeah, but don't worry about it.

We're not going to bother with health testing or other ethical practises.

We are looking to breed something square, Wolflike and able to take down Delivery Men.

They don't really need to be healthy, but they'll have hybrid vigour, so they'll be invincible.


----------



## Old Shep

Tangerineness. Oh yes!! 

I want a tangerine dog! It's the new merle!


----------



## Katherna

Old Shep said:


> Tangerineness. Oh yes!!
> 
> I want a tangerine dog! It's the new merle!


----------



## lostbear

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> @ lostbear.
> 
> TOTALLY forgot to congratulate you. Remiss of me, forgive please.
> 
> I VERY much like where you are going with this: flipper-wings. Presumably yielding a sort of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang dog capable of becoming airborne AND suitable for underwater submarine use. Genius! Now we are talking.
> *
> Am I the ONLY one suddenly regretting spending so much time on this planet with non-square, non airworthy dogs? *Snore inducing creatures if one fully explores the cornucopia of possible alternatives. They don't even have square eyes, the boring critters. Nuthin'.
> 
> Deeeepressing.


No - me too. I can't believe that we've never thought of this before - out of the mouths of babes etc. I think we got too involved with the anteaters, it pushed out attention away from the squaredog wing-gills project. Not any more! From now on it's square is the new black! (Oh - sorry - not black. OP pointed out that black was not desirable. Square is the new lime green with tangerine points!)


----------



## lostbear

Old Shep said:


> I regret it already!!
> 
> I can now see what it is!
> 
> *And I am an idiot!!! *
> 
> Officially!!!


Admitting it is the first and hardest step - believe me, I've been there.

There is a 12-step programme for recovery. You have already taken the first step. The next step is not doing stupid things. I still haven't mastered this, and I've been on the programme for over 55 years.


----------



## lostbear

Katherna said:


>


Get that in the breeding programme NOW!


----------



## Rafa

Old Shep said:


> I regret it already!!
> 
> I can now see what it is!
> 
> And I am an idiot!!!
> 
> Officially!!!


You're forgiven.

Do be more on your guard though. We wouldn't want the tone of this thread affected by somebody saying something silly.


----------



## lostbear

Sweety said:


> That Lungfish ain't square.
> 
> How can you ever hope to become famous as an Accredited Breeder of the Pet Forums Protodog if you can't pay attention to such things?
> 
> I'm disappointed, I really am.


Settle down, now! We only want its lung-gillness - we'll breed the oblongularity out with selective crosses


----------



## Rafa

Katherna said:


>


Now this looks really promising but, that amiable grin isn't very Wolfy, is it now?

And, where are the gills?


----------



## lostbear

Sweety said:


> Now this looks really promising but, that amiable grin isn't very Wolfy, is it now?
> 
> *And, where are the gills?*


Underneath. There is manta ray DNA in there somewhere - just look at the whippy tail.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel

Katherna said:


>


I can see that you are trying to redeem yourself after the whole unsavoury, unsquared bear-bernhard debacle from earlier.

Well done. Getting warmer! Me, I am loving the stripes.

Even though the less that is said about the STILL ongoing squarity issue, the better. How hard can it be?????


----------



## lostbear

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I can see that you are trying to redeem yourself after the whole unsavoury, unsquared bear-bernhard debacle from earlier.
> 
> Well done. Getting warmer! Me, I am loving the stripes.
> 
> Even though the less that is said about the STILL ongoing squarity issue, the better.* How hard can it be????*?


Absolutely! We're just nit trying!

EDIT: NOT trying, not nit trying - I must stop watching 'Allo, 'allo/


----------



## Rafa

lostbear said:


> Settle down, now! We only want its lung-gillness - we'll breed the oblongularity out with selective crosses


You're right, I DO need to calm down.

I've allowed myself to become ridiculously overexcited to the point that I hadn't even considered there could be hidden gills. What was I thinking?

When we do finalise our Pet Forums Prototype, should we apply for a Patent?

We don't want anybody jumping on the bandwagon and beating us to it with Cuboid/Wolf-a-Like/ Striped/ Tangerine/ Vicious/ Lunged/Delivery Man Aggressive pups.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel

Sweety said:


> You're right, I DO need to calm down.
> 
> I've allowed myself to become ridiculously overexcited to the point that I hadn't even considered there could be hidden gills. What was I thinking?
> 
> When we do finalise our Pet Forums Prototype, should we apply for a Patent?


Snort.

Too little, too late, Missy ! (insert diabolical wolfish grin of immense squarularity)

Did I not say " you snooze, you lose"?

(.......trots off clutching Patent)


----------



## cinnamontoast

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Gold you want?
> 
> Regrettably, no can do. My usually vast reservoir of gold is temporarily depleted. Would home grown leeks and a pidgeon I lassoed in the garden earlier be an acceptable substitute?
> 
> Hold it - the pidgeon is OFF the table. What am I supposed to feed my impending square hybrid? A diet consisting exclusively of delivery men & elks is likely inappropriate and insufficient. Requires the odd supplementation via pideons and other assorted fowl, surely. Perhaps I even need the leeks? Pondering this, hmmm.....
> 
> How about just a hearty handshake and my undying love n'devotion for your breeding prowess?
> 
> Pretty please?
> 
> Either way, I am buoyed by the fact that you seemingly repent your prior narrow mindedness. Repent, o ye of little faith and lack of innovative breeding vision.


I fear your ratios are way off, Hopeattheendofthetunnelwhyisyournamesoridiculouslylongandwithoutspacesomgthisisdoingmyflippingheadin. I am afraid square dogs may only have one pidgeon (sic, at least I was nearly sick last time I chopped ones for the dogs) per nth or they develop freakish wings and tangerine spots. Oh, wait, isn't that the point of breeding the greatdanewolfhybridloadofbollocksdog??


----------



## lilythepink

cinnamontoast said:


> I fear your ratios are way off, Hopeattheendofthetunnelwhyisyournamesoridiculouslylongandwithoutspacesomgthisisdoingmyflippingheadin. I am afraid square dogs may only have one pidgeon (sic, at least I was nearly sick last time I chopped ones for the dogs) per nth or they develop freakish wings and tangerine spots. Oh, wait, isn't that the point of breeding the greatdanewolfhybridloadofbollocksdog??


lololololololololololol


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

I'm afraid I'm already there with the 'bear-a-like' dog


----------



## lostbear

cinnamontoast said:


> I fear your ratios are way off, Hopeattheendofthetunnelwhyisyournamesoridiculouslylongandwithoutspacesomgthisisdoingmyflippingheadin. I am afraid square dogs may only have one pidgeon (sic, at least I was nearly sick last time I chopped ones for the dogs) per nth or they develop freakish wings and tangerine spots. Oh, wait, isn't that the point of breeding the greatdanewolfhybrid*loadofbollocksdog?? *


*
*
CT - that is inspired! It truly is!

To breed a dog with a load of ******** - each one carrying particular genetic material so that every litter can be "designer" with the aid of only a few elastic bands - that is genius, that is!

I doff my cap to you, or at least I will when I get it back off the cat.









(Why does cap-doffing sound like something you would indulge in in an Amsterdam back street? A bit like Muffin the mule.)


----------



## Rafa

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Snort.
> 
> Too little, too late, Missy ! (insert diabolical wolfish grin of immense squarularity)
> 
> Did I not say " you snooze, you lose"?
> 
> (.......trots off clutching Patent)


I snoozed! I DID and I blame myself.

Do you really have a diabolical, wolfish grin? We can't rule you out of our breeding programme, especially if you're square.

Nobody can be spared here, we must succeed at all costs.

I used to be normal ........... I SWEAR I did ........... I think I did .... :confused5:


----------



## cinnamontoast

lostbear said:


> [/B]
> CT - that is inspired! It truly is!
> 
> To breed a dog with a load of ******** - each one carrying particular genetic material so that every litter can be "designer" with the aid of only a few elastic bands - that is genius, that is!
> 
> I doff my cap to you, or at least I will when I get it back off the cat.
> 
> View attachment 138212
> 
> 
> (Why does cap-doffing sound like something you would indulge in in an Amsterdam back street? A bit like Muffin the mule.)


As long as we can DNA screen the pups afterwards in order to choose the right breeding for each potential owner. I would hate for the square dog to end up with a triangle type owner!


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

I just have to thank you guys for making me laugh out loud, this thread was soooo depressing to start with but it is now utterly HILARIOUS 

*Also:* can I be added to your waiting list?? I realise that it's going to be an incredibly long list, 'cause hey - who *WOULDN'T* want a virgin square Great Dane with a diabolically wolfish grin and multiple huge b*llocks???

What will your vetting process for potential owners be, by the way.....?


----------



## lostbear

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
> 
> I just have to thank you guys for making me laugh out loud, this thread was soooo depressing to start with but it is now utterly HILARIOUS
> 
> *Also:* can I be added to your waiting list?? I realise that it's going to be an incredibly long list, 'cause hey - who *WOULDN'T* want a virgin square Great Dane with a diabolically wolfish grin and multiple huge b*llocks???
> 
> *What will your vetting process for potential owners be, by the way.....?*


I'm going to suggest to my partners in cri - er, in _the carefully thought-out and in no way irresponsible breeding programme_ that we introduce a komodo dragon into the gene pool. (No splashing around in the shallow and for us! Our gene pool is so deep you need a bathysphere). This will make the dogs' bites poisonous.

We can then make our criterion "anyone who survives the initial visit to the litter" (and has wads of cash - these things won't come cheap, especially the "rare" colours e.g. lime green and tangerine) - and a couple of humming birds should add further brilliant jewel colours into the mix, as well as a tongue long enough to give you a welcome home kiss at the front door without the dog (is it still a dog?) having to lurch squarely off the sofa - smooth movement is quite difficult for cubes.


----------



## Nicky10

:nonod: Komodos are no good, they're not venomous in captivity and apparently if they were smaller they'd make some of the best reptile pets out there :001_unsure:. Far too tame for what we need, after all it has to be a guard dog.

Criteria for selling them hmm. Well obviously if you're willing to pay the price for them, you'll take good care of them. And you do promise to feed it and take it for walks yes?


----------



## lilythepink

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
> 
> I just have to thank you guys for making me laugh out loud, this thread was soooo depressing to start with but it is now utterly HILARIOUS
> 
> *Also:* can I be added to your waiting list?? I realise that it's going to be an incredibly long list, 'cause hey - who *WOULDN'T* want a virgin square Great Dane with a diabolically wolfish grin and multiple huge b*llocks???
> 
> What will your vetting process for potential owners be, by the way.....?


vetting process? do we have to have one?

maybe the first person to arrive with the prettiest bunch of flowers?


----------



## lilythepink

Nicky10 said:


> :nonod: Komodos are no good, they're not venomous in captivity and apparently if they were smaller they'd make some of the best reptile pets out there :001_unsure:. Far too tame for what we need, after all it has to be a guard dog.
> 
> Criteria for selling them hmm. Well obviously if you're willing to pay the price for them, you'll take good care of them. And you do promise to feed it and take it for walks yes?


walks? really?? why???


----------



## Nicky10

lilythepink said:


> walks? really?? why???


It is still a dog isn't it? It will need at least a walk around the block once a week for a bit of exercise.

If we're going for colour









Plus he hits things so hard he actually creates light when he does it :sosp:. No one's going to mess with that.


----------



## lilythepink

mantis shrimp?...oh wow....would love a puppy this colour. Do you think the colours would fade as the pup became adult? and would it have aggressive tendencies and bash people like the shrimp does?

Do you have to walk these shrimps?


----------



## Nicky10

lilythepink said:


> mantis shrimp?...oh wow....would love a puppy this colour. Do you think the colours would fade as the pup became adult? and would it have aggressive tendencies and bash people like the shrimp does?
> 
> Do you have to walk these shrimps?


Yes a peacock mantis shrimp. No that's an adult in full colours and we know that genetics works by us picking and choosing what we want to keep. They're not actually that aggressive, but if we crossed that kind of power and weaponry with something much more vicious we should have it. Plus he has the best eyesight of any animal in the world imagine the possibilities.

They tend to take themselves for walks by smashing their tanks :001_unsure:


----------



## lostbear

Nicky10 said:


> :nonod: Komodos are no good, *they're not venomous in captivity* and apparently if they were smaller they'd make some of the best reptile pets out there :001_unsure:. Far too tame for what we need, after all it has to be a guard dog.
> Aw - boarlox.
> Criteria for selling them hmm. Well obviously if you're willing to pay the price for them, you'll take good care of them. And you do promise to feed it and take it for walks yes?


Yeah - course they would. And obviously we'll sell them with endorsements as we don't want our carefully calculated breeding programme contaminated by a load of mongrels . . .


----------



## lostbear

lilythepink said:


> vetting process? do we have to have one?
> 
> *maybe the first person to arrive with the prettiest bunch of flowers?*


You are sooooo shallow.


----------



## lostbear

Nicky10 said:


> It is still a dog isn't it? It will need at least a walk around the block once a week for a bit of exercise.
> 
> If we're going for colour
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus he hits things so hard he actually creates light when he does it :sosp:. No one's going to mess with that.





lilythepink said:


> mantis shrimp?...oh wow....would love a puppy this colour. Do you think the colours would fade as the pup became adult? and would it have aggressive tendencies and bash people like the shrimp does?
> 
> Do you have to walk these shrimps?





Nicky10 said:


> Yes a peacock mantis shrimp. No that's an adult in full colours and we know that genetics works by us picking and choosing what we want to keep. They're not actually that aggressive, but if we crossed that kind of power and weaponry with something much more vicious we should have it. Plus he has the best eyesight of any animal in the world imagine the possibilities.
> *Squareness ladies - you're wandering away from squareness.
> ** Take themselves for walks*
> 
> [/B] by smashing their tanks :001_unsure:


Another selling point (*rubs hands gleefully*)


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> Yeah - course they would. And obviously we'll sell them with endorsements as we don't want our carefully calculated breeding programme contaminated by a load of mongrels . . .


The looks might work for the intimidation factor but just a bit too tame





Apparently they learn to recognise the handler and tame really easily with them and follow them around for food :huh:


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> Another selling point (*rubs hands gleefully*)


We can work on the squareness :yesnod:. Or just add on the claw and colours


----------



## lostbear

Nicky10 said:


> The looks might work for the intimidation factor but just a bit too tame
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Apparently they learn to recognise the handler and tame really easily with them and follow them around for food* :huh:


So you might as well have a bloke in the house?


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> So you might as well have a bloke in the house?


:lol: They're probably better housemates.


----------



## cinnamontoast

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
> 
> I just have to thank you guys for making me laugh out loud, this thread was soooo depressing to start with but it is now utterly HILARIOUS
> 
> *Also:* can I be added to your waiting list?? I realise that it's going to be an incredibly long list, 'cause hey - who *WOULDN'T* want a virgin square Great Dane with a diabolically wolfish grin and multiple huge b*llocks???
> 
> What will your vetting process for potential owners be, by the way.....?


I was thinking of a fairly simple vetting process: who has the most cash, basically. Is that wrong?

Not sure we'll need endorsements: let's face who, who the heck will have the first clue about breeding our amazing square dog/shrimp hybrids so we don't need to worry about that as it won't be obvious (no-one will have a _CLUE!!)_ and anyway, the F1 hybrids are the only ones that will be worth the money and we'll keep all of those and linebreed. :yesnod:


----------



## lilythepink

cinnamontoast said:


> I was thinking of a fairly simple vetting process: who has the most cash, basically. Is that wrong?
> 
> Not sure we'll need endorsements: let's face who, who the heck will have the first clue about breeding our amazing square dog/shrimp hybrids so we don't need to worry about that as it won't be obvious (no-one will have a _CLUE!!)_ and anyway, the F1 hybrids are the only ones that will be worth the money and we'll keep all of those and linebreed. :yesnod:


ah, you mean like keeping it all within the family?


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel

cinnamontoast said:


> I was thinking of a fairly simple vetting process: who has the most cash, basically. Is that wrong?


I was tempted to ignore you. I am in a deep and protracted huff since you mocked my poetic forum alias.

Yes, YOU whose name sounds like somethingdeliciousoneeats4breakfastsittingonahighhorseinyourpic!

I have reconsidered given your insightful proposal.

Spot on. The sole vetting process to consist of who has the most moolah. Akin to a Tom Cruise-esque "Show me the money" PPO suitability test. You clever pumpkin, you!

Given your ethos and invaluable contribution to the breed - would you accept a nomination to act as chairperson? Was going to nominate either LB or Sweety...but they lost focus. Aaaaall over the place with their breeding templates. Sigh..

Well?


----------



## lostbear

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I was tempted to ignore you. I am in a deep and protracted huff since you mocked my poetic forum alias.
> 
> Yes, YOU whose name sounds like somethingdeliciousoneeats4breakfastsittingonahighhorseinyourpic!
> 
> I have reconsidered given your insightful proposal.
> 
> Spot on. The sole vetting process to consist of who has the most moolah. Akin to a Tom Cruise-esque "Show me the money" PPO suitability test. You clever pumpkin, you!
> 
> Given your ethos and invaluable contribution to the breed - would you accept a nomination to act as chairperson? *Was going to nominate either LB or Sweety...but they lost focus.* Aaaaall over the place with their breeding templates. Sigh..
> 
> Well?


I did NOT lose focus! I was momentarily distracted, is all, and I'm sure the same applies to Sweetie.


----------



## Nicky10

lilythepink said:


> ah, you mean like keeping it all within the family?


Ah no inbreeding, incest just sounds too nasty it will put people off. We'll call it linebreeding, just sounds so much better :yesnod:


----------



## Old Shep

You are all missing a very important point.

Who's going to do the celebrity endorsement?

Got to be someone in the public eye, who loves dogs and is easily respected by potential new owners.

Can I suggest someone?


----------



## Nicky10

Old Shep said:


> You are all missing a very important point.
> 
> Who's going to do the celebrity endorsement?
> 
> Got to be someone in the public eye, who loves dogs and is easily respected by potential new owners.
> 
> Can I suggest someone?


We don't need someone respected just somebody who's photographed a lot and will carry around a cute baby until they get bored of it. May I suggest a popular socialite of some kind or maybe a wag.


----------



## Old Shep

I can't attach a picture, but I think this would be an excellent choice

Instagram


----------



## Nicky10

Old Shep said:


> I can't attach a picture, but I think this would be an excellent Instagram


Perfect :w00t: just look what Paris Hilton did for teacup dogs and she's basically the newest model.


----------



## Old Shep

Or this guy?

I believe he's very big in he dog world and very very popular.

He's also stinking rich!

https://www.facebook.com/cesar.millan


----------



## Nicky10

Old Shep said:


> Or this guy?
> 
> I believe he's very big in he dog world and very very popular.
> 
> He's also stinking rich!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/cesar.millan


Unfortunately we tried some of his methods early on. The alpha rolling ended in a hospital trip and they didn't even notice the tsst and yank on a choke chain. I don't think he would endorse our animals . It's a shame he's such an expert on dogs.


----------



## lostbear

Old Shep said:


> Or this guy?
> 
> I believe he's very big in he dog world and very very popular.
> 
> He's also stinking rich!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/cesar.millan


Never heard of 'im.


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> Never heard of 'im.


He's an expert on dog and wolf behaviour, he would be perfect to train our dogs. Maybe I didn't get the energy at the right level of calm-assertive . I tried the eating before them thing but the f1 hybrids with t-rex blood tried to charge the fence :001_unsure: I decided to just throw them the food instead.


----------



## lostbear

Nicky10 said:


> Unfortunately we tried some of his methods early on. The alpha rolling ended in a hospital trip and they didn't even notice the tsst and yank on a choke chain. I don't think he would endorse our animals . It's a shame he's such an expert on dogs.


Surprised the alpha roll didn't end in a morgue trip - these are highly-styung animals wot we are talking about here. They've got _nerves_. They do have a reputation as 'nanny dogs', but that's because they clip kids around the ear and send them to be without any supper. Or fingers.


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> Surprised the alpha roll didn't end in a morgue trip - these are highly-styung animals wot we are talking about here. They've got _nerves_. They do have a reputation as 'nanny dogs', but that's because they clip kids around the ear and send them to be without any supper. Or fingers.


Strangely it seems the methods he says don't work on dogs do :001_unsure:. They've responded really well to food training but I'm worried see because he says it means they won't respect us


----------



## Old Shep

I think, though that perhaps he has too much lizard in him to be able to be objective about this wonderful new, exciting breed.

I'm just gutted the cross with a Komodo dragons not going ahead. They are so sweet!


----------



## Nicky10

Old Shep said:


> I think, though that perhaps he has too much lizard in him to be able to be objective about this wonderful new, exciting breed.
> 
> I'm just gutted the cross with a Komodo dragons not going ahead. They are so sweet!


We could always breed them in and then give them rotting carcasses so they get the bacteria I suppose. But such a specialised diet will put off potential owners :001_unsure:


----------



## Old Shep

A little true story I just can't help sharing.

I used to work in Social Work and one of my workmates (with an extremely responsible job. Basically she oversaw the welfare of about 60 people with learning disabilities) was chatting with the psychology student. The conversation went something like this:

Workmate: what pets do you have?
Psychology student: I have a house rabbit. Susie is her name. She's a poppet. But I am looking after my mums collie this weekend and he's a bit excitable, and am a bit anxious about leaving them together in the flat
Workmate: oh yes! It would be terrible if they mated! The poor rabbit! It could have problems giving birth as collies are so much bigger than rabbits!


She was deadly serious. Even when we explained about cross species matings, she just didn't get it. Hysterical and a little sad too.


----------



## Nicky10

Old Shep said:


> A little true story I just can't help sharing.
> 
> I used to work in Social Work and one of my workmates (with an extremely responsible job. Basically she oversaw the welfare of about 60 people with learning disabilities) was chatting with the psychology student. The conversation went something like this:
> 
> Workmate: what pets do you have?
> Psychology student: I have a house rabbit. Susie is her name. She's a poppet. But I am looking after my mums collie this weekend and he's a bit excitable, and am a bit anxious about leaving them together in the flat
> Workmate: oh yes! It would be terrible if they mated! The poor rabbit! It could have problems giving birth as collies are so much bigger than rabbits!
> 
> She was deadly serious. Even when we explained about cross species matings, she just didn't get it. Hysterical and a little sad too.


Oh dear :lol: maybe she'd seen too many mules/zedonks/whatever other hybrids they've bred this week. Last I saw they were crossing bear species :sosp:


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel

lostbear said:


> I did NOT lose focus! I was momentarily distracted, is all, and I'm sure the same applies to Sweetie.


Pffffft!!!

The lady doth protest too much, methinks....

Get on with it!

I am dealing with an SOS situation here. My living room is full of hostage taken delivery men eating truckload of chips (which YOU, yes you, recommended as a staple diet ingredient), the elks are eating all my flowering clematis in the garden, and the lassoed pidgeons are whirring round the whole house.

If that doesn't make one a tad jittery and stressed I don't know what will.

The original OP has vanished and I am stuck with you unfocused folks. I could weep. WEEP!!!!!


----------



## Nicky10

Tip 1: get rid of the feathered monsters er pigeons and woe betide you if they're the fancy show type.

I sent one photo of them to Emma a year later and still every photo with birds in it was being sent hundreds of times and few others were going through. None of this showed up on either bill


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Pffffft!!!
> 
> The lady doth protest too much, methinks....
> 
> Get on with it!
> 
> I am dealing with an SOS situation here. *My living room is full of hostage taken delivery men eating truckload of chips* (which YOU, yes you, recommended as a staple diet ingredient), the elks are eating all my flowering clematis in the garden, and the lassoed pidgeons are whirring round the whole house.
> 
> If that doesn't make one a tad jittery and stressed I don't know what will.
> 
> The original OP has vanished and I am stuck with you unfocused folks. I could weep. WEEP!!!!!


There go my plans for world domination! I may have to recall my menagerie of implanted animals, I'm sure your passive hostages will soon become less satisfied with their surroundings, and demand boxes to juggle very shortly!


----------



## lostbear

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Pffffft!!!
> 
> The lady doth protest too much, methinks....
> 
> Get on with it!
> 
> I am dealing with an SOS situation here. *My living room is full of hostage taken delivery men *
> 
> Personally I wouldn't have started stealing delivery men until I had at least one litter to feed them to.
> *eating truckload of chips *
> 
> The chips were for our F1 hybrids. Duh!
> 
> *(which YOU, yes you*, recommended as a staple diet ingredient)
> 
> Don't blame me because you got over-excited
> , the elks are eating all my flowering clematis in the garden, and the lassoed pidgeons are whirring round the whole house.
> 
> If that doesn't make one a tad jittery and stressed I don't know what will.
> 
> The original OP has vanished and I am stuck with you unfocused folks. I could weep. WEEP!!!!!


Have a good cry. You'll feel better.

Here you are - blow your nose. Happier now?


----------



## lostbear

Old Shep said:


> I think, though that perhaps *he has too much lizard in him* to be able to be objective about this wonderful new, exciting breed.
> 
> I'm just gutted the cross with a Komodo dragons not going ahead. They are so sweet!


Or slug - there is a lot of slime-producing DNA in that man.


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> Or slug - there is a lot of slime-producing DNA in that man.


We could however get the number of his dentist :sosp:. It would help us sell them if their teeth were so white and sparkly


----------



## lostbear

Nicky10 said:


> Tip 1: get rid of the feathered monsters er pigeons and woe betide you if they're the fancy show type.
> 
> I sent one photo of them to Emma a year later and still every photo with birds in it was being sent hundreds of times and few others were going through. None of this showed up on *either bill*


By 'bill' do you mean the birds' mouths?


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There go my plans for world domination! I may have to recall my menagerie of implanted animals, I'm sure your passive hostages will soon become less satisfied with their surroundings, and demand boxes to juggle very shortly!


FYI, I am not talking to YOU anymore.

Cinnamontoast wasn't the only one who seriously ruffled my feathers today. You share the honour of both being on my hit list.

You seriously think I didn't notice your feeble attempts to infiltrate the prototype wolfdane gene pool with something UNSQUARE...and (gasp) CHOCOLATE-EY?????

Some will stoop so low, defies description.

I need to go lie down with a cool flannel.....


----------



## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There go my plans for world domination! I may have to recall my menagerie of implanted animals, I'm sure *your passive hostages will soon become less satisfied with their surroundings, and demand boxes to juggle very shortl*y!


Give them the ones marked "fragile". Those are their favourites.


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> By 'bill' do you mean the birds' mouths?


The phone bills :001_unsure: that was possibly the most sinister part of the whole thing. That and when they started sending my address back and forth over and over. We are NOT involving pigeons in this :crying:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> FYI, I am not talking to YOU anymore.
> 
> Cinnamontoast wasn't the only one who seriously ruffled my feathers today. You share the honour of both being on my hit list.
> 
> You seriously think I didn't notice your feeble attempts to infiltrate the prototype wolfdane gene pool with something UNSQUARE...and (gasp) CHOCOLATE-EY?????
> 
> Some will stoop so low, defies description.
> 
> I need to go lie down with a cool flannel.....


I assure you I want no part of your squarewolfadaneloadsabollockstangerineyflipperwingshrimp creations, I have my own nefarious plans


----------



## Nicky10

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I assure you I want no part of your squarewolfadaneloadsabollockstangerineyflipperwingshrimp creations, I have my own nefarious plans


I'm onto you :sosp: you're working with the illuminati. You even admitted it earlier :sosp:


----------



## lostbear

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> FYI, I am not talking to YOU anymore.
> 
> Cinnamontoast wasn't the only one who seriously ruffled my feathers today. You share the honour of both being on my hit list.
> 
> *You seriously think I didn't notice your feeble attempts to infiltrate the prototype wolfdane gene pool with something UNSQUARE...and (gasp) CHOCOLATE-EY????*?
> 
> Some will stoop so low, defies description.
> 
> I need to go lie down with a cool flannel.....


If they are chocolate-y, will there be another market opportunity in the cordon bleaugh food market? Worth looking into.

Breeding jellyfish into the mix will mean that we will have large litters (several millions) with which we could supply restaurants worldwide.

Plus - you know those adverts you see for multi-roasts - a woodlouse stuffed in a pygmy shrew stuffed in a naked mole rat, stuffed on a rock hyrax, stuffed in a pangolin, stuffed in a cassowary, stuffed in a water buffolo, stuffed in a hippopotamus, stuffed in an elephant, stuffed in a humpback whale etc etc etc? Well, we could provide all of this in _a single, easy to prepare and roast lump of corpse!_

Lidl, Iceland, Aldi - they would beat a path to our door.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Nicky10 said:


> I'm onto you :sosp: you're working with the illuminati. You even admitted it earlier :sosp:


I most certainly am not, most of the time it's pitch black here!


----------



## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I assure you I want no part of your squarewolfadaneloadsabollockstangerineyflipperwingshrimp creations, *I have my own nefarious plans*


Nothing new there then.


----------



## Nicky10

lostbear said:


> If they are chocolate-y, will there be another market opportunity in the cordon bleaugh food market? Worth looking into.
> 
> Breeding jellyfish into the mix will mean that we will have large litters (several millions) with which we could supply restaurants worldwide.
> 
> Plus - you know those adverts you see for multi-roasts - a woodlouse stuffed in a pygmy shrew stuffed in a naked mole rat, stuffed on a rock hyrax, stuffed in a pangolin, stuffed in a cassowary, stuffed in a water buffolo, stuffed in a hippopotamus, stuffed in an elephant, stuffed in a humpback whale etc etc etc? Well, we could provide all of this in _a single, easy to prepare and roast lump of corpse!_
> 
> Lidl, Iceland, Aldi - they would beat a path to our door.


No not jellyfish their cousins that just turn back into their baby form and age again. They're basically immortal and the people get a cute puppy all over again . As everyone knows keeping an old dog just isn't worth it and this way you won't have to :w00t:



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I most certainly am not, most of the time it's pitch black here!


That's just what an illuminatus would say :sosp:


----------



## Sleeping_Lion

Chuckle, no-one would even begin to guess at my goals to include prehensile tails, eight legs, eyes at both ends, and some helpfully placed pincers here and there. Not to mention the rare silver dapple effects I'm planning to achieve, possibly wings somewhere, but my ultimate aim, for an icosahedron *shape* heh, heh, heh.....

B*gga, did I type that out loud?!


----------



## Nicky10

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Chuckle, no-one would even begin to guess at my goals to include prehensile tails, eight legs, eyes at both ends, and some helpfully placed pincers here and there. Not to mention the rare silver dapple effects I'm planning to achieve, possibly wings somewhere, but my ultimate aim, for an icosahedron *shape* heh, heh, heh.....
> 
> B*gga, did I type that out loud?!


*Records everything, posts 10 page analysis on conspiracy site and goes back to constructing the perfect tinfoil hat*


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel

lostbear said:


> If they are chocolate-y, will there be another market opportunity in the cordon bleaugh food market? Worth looking into.
> 
> Breeding jellyfish into the mix will mean that we will have large litters (several millions) with which we could supply restaurants worldwide.
> 
> Plus - you know those adverts you see for multi-roasts - a woodlouse stuffed in a pygmy shrew stuffed in a naked mole rat, stuffed on a rock hyrax, stuffed in a pangolin, stuffed in a cassowary, stuffed in a water buffolo, stuffed in a hippopotamus, stuffed in an elephant, stuffed in a humpback whale etc etc etc? Well, we could provide all of this in _a single, easy to prepare and roast lump of corpse!_
> 
> Lidl, Iceland, Aldi - they would beat a path to our door.


No.

You lot are rubbish. Less focused than a litter of wriggling, overenthusiastic Labrador pups. Can't concentrate on vital breeding goals for a nanosecond.

I want the OP to come back.

The ONLY one with a cunning AND viable plan.

Buh-bye, must shoot some elks and delivery men. I might be some time....


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## cinnamontoast

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I was tempted to ignore you. I am in a deep and protracted huff since you mocked my poetic forum alias.
> 
> Yes, YOU whose name sounds like somethingdeliciousoneeats4breakfastsittingonahighhorseinyourpic!
> 
> I have reconsidered given your insightful proposal.
> 
> Spot on. The sole vetting process to consist of who has the most moolah. Akin to a Tom Cruise-esque "Show me the money" PPO suitability test. You clever pumpkin, you!
> 
> Given your ethos and invaluable contribution to the breed - would you accept a nomination to act as chairperson? Was going to nominate either LB or Sweety...but they lost focus. Aaaaall over the place with their breeding templates. Sigh..
> 
> Well?


Oh, go on then, personwhosenameisexcessiveandverylongandcrazy.



Old Shep said:


> I can't attach a picture, but I think this would be an excellent choice
> 
> Instagram


OMG, she's a useless baggage!



Sleeping_Lion said:


> There go my plans for world domination! I may have to recall my menagerie of implanted animals, I'm sure your passive hostages will soon become less satisfied with their surroundings, and demand boxes to juggle very shortly!


Hun, your plans for world domination have been foiled on numerous occasions. YOu are a worse baddie than Dr Evil. GIve it up, love! We need your breeding prowess, forget the world domination thing!


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## lostbear

cinnamontoast said:


> Oh, go on then, personwhosenameisexcessiveandverylongandcrazy.
> 
> OMG, she's a useless baggage!
> 
> *
> Hun, your plans for world domination have been foiled on numerous occasions. YOu are a worse baddie than Dr Evil. GIve it up, love! We need your breeding prowess, forget the world domination thing*!


CT is right, m'dear - and I've already told you to stop buying all your equipment from "Acme".


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## Sleeping_Lion

cinnamontoast said:


> Hun, your plans for world domination have been foiled on numerous occasions. YOu are a worse baddie than Dr Evil. GIve it up, love! We need your breeding prowess, forget the world domination thing!


Nagdammit!! I will sulk in the corner if I'm not allowed to dominate the world!!!

Oh go on then, although I think to achieve a real square, we're going to have to allow some outcrossing to rectangles, trapeziums and parallelograms. Otherwise we risk a genetic box-neck. It will mean countless *subjects* will need to be discarded, cough, I mean sold as unique within their own right, but what's a few more thousand unwanted, I mean sought after and rare animals in the world?


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## cinnamontoast

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Nagdammit!! I will sulk in the corner if I'm not allowed to dominate the world!!!
> 
> Oh go on then, although I think to achieve a real square, we're going to have to allow some outcrossing to rectangles, trapeziums and parallelograms. Otherwise we risk a genetic box-neck. It will mean countless *subjects* will need to be discarded, cough, I mean sold as unique within their own right, but what's a few more thousand unwanted, I mean sought after and rare animals in the world?


It's Ok, we can sell them as F1 hybrids and charge triple!! :ihih:


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## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Nagdammit!! I will sulk in the corner if I'm not allowed to dominate the world!!!
> 
> Oh go on then, although I think to achieve a real square, we're going to have to allow some outcrossing to rectangles, trapeziums and parallelograms. Otherwise we risk a genetic box-neck. It will mean countless *subjects* will need to be discarded, cough, I mean sold as unique within their own right, but what's a few more thousand unwanted, I mean sought after and rare animals in the world?





cinnamontoast said:


> It's Ok, we can sell them as F1 hybrids and charge triple!! :ihih:


And at least a couple of them - probably the ones with scales and/or gills - are likely to be hypoallergenic. Doubles your market (No - of course every individual animal doesn't need to be tested, silly. What are you like !

*chuckles affectionately*

As long as there's a bit of poodle in there _somewhere_ that will do it.)


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## Fluffster

53 pages!!!

Can anyone do me a Cliff Notes version? :lol:


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## Nicky10

Fluffster said:


> 53 pages!!!
> 
> Can anyone do me a Cliff Notes version? :lol:


Wouldn't do it justice. But after about page 11 it gets really amusing.


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## kodakkuki

Fluffster said:


> 53 pages!!!
> 
> Can anyone do me a Cliff Notes version? :lol:


erm? square hypoallergenic creatures with gills and or wings... but so far no one has found a way to combine all these vital traits into the one danewolf type animal!

but all this talk of squareness... have a square root! grind it up and feed it to them at birth maybe? get them to absorb some squareness that way?


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## Sleeping_Lion

kodakkuki said:


> erm? square hypoallergenic creatures with gills and or wings... but so far no one has found a way to combine all these vital traits into the one danewolf type animal!
> 
> but all this talk of squareness... have a square root! grind it up and feed it to them at birth maybe? get them to absorb some squareness that way?


That is blatantly a rectangular root!


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## lilythepink

lostbear said:


> And at least a couple of them - probably the ones with scales and/or gills - are likely to be hypoallergenic. Doubles your market (No - of course every individual animal doesn't need to be tested, silly. What are you like !
> 
> *chuckles affectionately*
> 
> As long as there's a bit of poodle in there _somewhere_ that will do it.)


well...can we not just say they are hypoallergenic and say stuff whatever somebody else says and tell them to sue us? then change our phone numkbers and deny everything


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## lilythepink

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That is blatantly a rectangular root!


The love of money is the ROOT of all evil


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## lilythepink

Nicky10 said:


> I'm onto you :sosp: you're working with the illuminati. You even admitted it earlier :sosp:


I saw the illuminati last year in Blackpool....lovely.


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## lilythepink

lostbear said:


> CT is right, m'dear - and I've already told you to stop buying all your equipment from "Acme".


Beep Beep......wily 1 coyote.lol


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## kodakkuki

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That is blatantly a rectangular root!


can't slip nothin' by ya can ye!?
it has good angles on it though- would stop those darned curves on non square dogs legs at least...
and imagine rectangular ears!?!?!?!


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## cinnamontoast

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That is blatantly a rectangular root!


So rectangular!! Blatantly so!!


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## Firedog

You lot are terrible. I was minding my own business tonight at ring craft trying to do some serious stuff when an owner and a Great Dane came in through the door. I spend the rest of the evening trying to check out its squareness.

Not only that we had a Pyrenean Mountain dog and I spent a lot of time wondering if this would work in to the square Dane/wolf dog thing.


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## lostbear

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That is blatantly a rectangular root!


Worse! It's a rhombus! Shame on you!

I don't know how you sleep at night . . .


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## lostbear

Firedog said:


> You lot are terrible. I was minding my own business tonight at ring craft trying to do some serious stuff when an owner and a Great Dane came in through the door. I spend the rest of the evening trying to check out its squareness.
> 
> Not only that we had a *Pyrenean Mountain dog *and I spent a lot of time wondering if this would work in to the square Dane/wolf dog thing.


Now if it was a Pythagorean mountain dog I'm sure we could have used it in the breeding programme.


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## Sleeping_Lion

lostbear said:


> Worse! It's a rhombus! Shame on you!
> 
> I don't know how you sleep at night . . .


I'd have gone for rectangular with recessive rhombus rather than the other way around


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