# genetics help



## SloanMahria (Jan 13, 2012)

I have been wracking my brain trying to understand genetics and I just can't figure it out. I was hoping that some of you genetics experts out there could help me firgure out what colors and markings Lily's kittens might have. Also I don't know if you can tell but I am interested in the texture and length of the fur. I will start with some pics and background info on both cats.
Lily







You can't tell very well from the picture but lily has a long haired white stomach and the rest of her is short haired. She also has a little brown on her bottom. She is very petite for her age. Her mom was a lynx point ragdoll. I think her dad was a long haired black cat. Lily's brothers were long haired and black. 
Kiki







Kiki is an ocicat mix. He is quite large with a rusty colored stomach. He has a short soft coat. I know nothing about his parents because we rescued him from our garage at 4 weeks old. I hope this is enough info. If you need any information that I left out feel free to ask.
Thanks in advance.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm afraid it's almost impossible to accurately tell from colour and pattern alone what you're going to get. The reason we can all make predictions about pure-breds is that we know what's gone into their backgrounds regarding colours and patterns etc. Recessives can be carried without being visible on the coat, but can, under the right circumstances, be visible in the kittens. I'm afraid it's just a case of wait and see.

This is part of the reason that we all advised you not to deliberately breed your moggies. The rescue bits aside, mogs can carry genes for disease and poor health etc that may not affect the adult but may manifest in the kitten. Just as we can't predict the colour without knowing more about the parentage, we can't predict the health without knowing this too, as there's only so many things that can be tested for, and it's only a drop in the ocean as to what they could get.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I dont beleive her her parent was a lynx ragdoll, just my opinion, and she is ashort hair so both parents were also Not long hair, 2 long hairs Cant propduce a short hair cat. so both are tabby, all the kittens will be tabby, maybe with a bit of white lik mum. ocicats dont hold the CP gene from what I know, soo all solid tabbie short haired moggies 

You say your girl is small? so Id be saving for complications, you should never ever breed a small cat, that is small for the breed, these cats are always neutered do to problem with births as males are always bigger, which = big kittens, you said that there are only 2-3kittens? Even more worry-some as they will be bigger, you need to bewith her 24/7 now, sleep with her aswell so you can spot problems, kittenc getting stuck, she may not be able to push them out, even bigger girls can have problems with larger boys, so smaller girls its even worse for.

Hope you keep & neuter them, remember that mum cant be neutered until 13weeks of age until the kittens are weaned, and the boy has to be kept AWAY from her & the kittens 24/7 and only allowed to meet supervised from 8-12weeks of age as long as his neutered.


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## SloanMahria (Jan 13, 2012)

Thank you all for your help. I meant to say her mom is a lynx point ragdoll mix her mom was medium haired. Very beautiful though. She is not that small just smaller than kiki who weighs about 9 pounds. When I took lily to the vet she weighed 6 pounds. I knew it wasn't going to be exact I was just curious. I have not left her alone. My husband and his sister are there with her when im not home. She always has someone. I have done a lot of research and have set away quite a bit of money for an emergency fund. I also have a friend who is a vet that is going to assist me with the birth if needed. All kittens will be spayed and nuetured before leaving at 13 weeks. But I do plan on keeping at least one. The vet said I should be expecting kittens anytime within the next 3 weeks.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

based on bog standard moggy genetics (and I did tell you this on your previous posts) - tabby with or with out white, and possibly (but less likely as they are both tabby parents) black with or without white. Nothing different is likely. All shorthaired.


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## SloanMahria (Jan 13, 2012)

I totally forgot that you told me that spid thanks for telling me that again.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

And 6lbs is small ........

I have neutered my girl who is only a fraction heavier as she is too petite for breeding....


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

6lb??  you are having a laugh? my kittens weigh that at 4-5months old  my good god, I thought my girl at 10lb was to small for her litter so I left her another 2 months!!! 6lb nd that is her at 6weeks pregnant???

just to add that your boy isnt a ocicat mix either if you rescued him at 4weeks old and know nothing about his parents, which just makes it worse knowing nothing about his heritage


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## SloanMahria (Jan 13, 2012)

That was what the vet said he was likely mixed with. I guess I've never had a large cat because I always thought kiki was huge. I've always had cats that were a bit small. Maybe I heard her wrong it was quite loud because a dog was howling next door. I asked the vet if she was concerned about her size and she said no. What is a good size for a cat. I am gonna weigh her again when I get home. Now I am even more terrified then before. I was thinking of getting her spayed when she became pregnant but when I finally got into the vet she said it was to late.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

SloanMahria said:


> That was what the vet said he was likely mixed with. I guess I've never had a large cat because I always thought kiki was huge. I've always had cats that were a bit small. Maybe I heard her wrong it was quite loud because a dog was howling next door. I asked the vet if she was concerned about her size and she said no. What is a good size for a cat. I am gonna weigh her again when I get home. Now I am even more terrified then before. I was thinking of getting her spayed when she became pregnant but when I finally got into the vet she said it was to late.


well 1. vets dont know anything (WELL SOME MIGHT DO) about breeding or cat breeds, one said my moggie was a Siamese  anyway, he is a classic tabby moggie, there arent alot of ocicat breeders in the UK and Id be blowed if any of those who spend 5grand importing and neutering kittens before they go (as most do - small gene pool) if a 4week old kitten would end up in your garage, so his a moggie, and at 9lb he is actually quite small for a boy, mine weigh from 12-16lb.

2. she can be neutered now, up until the day before the birth if you wanted, so its never ever too late for them to do this, a breeding cat has to be of good size, its not always about the weight (some can be all muscle/stocky) but your looking at more than 6lb, considering 4-5month od kittens normally weigh this!! a 12month of cat shouldnt weigh 6lb if used for breeding!!

honestly you said you researched and did every health test under the sun??? Im so disappointed I really am reading this, I do everything for my cats and then I get stupid emails asking to use my boy at stud, then reading about people either letting cats out to breed them or breeding them at home with no idea, Its getting me down it really is, I do everything to such a high standard that it gives me stress bumps!

I wouldnt do it any other way as perfection is my pride and doing things properly, I just couldnt go below 100% on anything especially when it comes to lives, your cat will be having 2-3 lives that YOU created and are responsible for, does that not mean anything to anyone anymore?? :nonod:


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## SloanMahria (Jan 13, 2012)

After thinking about it I felt so stupid for wanting to breed her but by the time I decided against it it was to late and I am going to have to live with whatever happens to her and the babies. I have not slept well at all since her pregnancy has been confirmed that is why I took her for the ultra sound because I was hoping she wasn't pregnant but she is so I have to deal with that. I live in michigan in the united states and I have called a bunch of vets and all of them said they don't spay after the 3rd week. So I am just trying to be positive about the situation and all I can do is help her through it in any way I can and pray that everything goes well. At least I know if things go well the kittens won't have any inherited health problems.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

SloanMahria said:


> That was what the vet said he was likely mixed with. I guess I've never had a large cat because I always thought kiki was huge. I've always had cats that were a bit small. Maybe I heard her wrong it was quite loud because a dog was howling next door. I asked the vet if she was concerned about her size and she said no. What is a good size for a cat. I am gonna weigh her again when I get home. Now I am even more terrified then before. I was thinking of getting her spayed when she became pregnant but when I finally got into the vet she said it was to late.


Most vets in the UK know nothing about pedigree cat breeds and it wouldn't surprise me if it was the same in the US, plus most vets like to please so if a client is pushing to find out what breed their moggie is they will oblige...

Hopefully the boy has been neutered. If not get him done PDQ.

BTW I agree with the possible colours - tabby with or without white, maybe black with or without white.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I hadn't noticed the weight bit - my Minnii, who is *dangerously thin* because of her HCM, is 6.6lbs. Lifting her is like lifting a feather compared to my breeding queen Coda, who is nearly double her weight and still growing at 9 months. I am quite concerned that at 6 weeks pregnant your girl is less than my poorly girl. Please feed her some premium foods and try to get a bit more weight on her so she is able to have the energy to birth them and feed them too - hand rearing is a hard bit of work. Please make sure you have your vets on standby.

I agree with TB too - both your cats are bog standard moggies - your boy is no more ocicat than tiger. Have you got homes lined up? Breeding can be great fun and exciting but it can have real downers too and unfortunately you have not set out along the right path. DO have her spayed after this pregnancy and I pray nothing goes wrong.

Which health tests did you have done, HCM? PKD? PRA? GM1, GM2? to name a very few - the trouble is when you don't know the exact breed of your cat you can't possibly test for ALL the known diseases - it would cost hundreds and hundreds - and they need to be genetic tests etc. Even with these tests you still can't guarantee a kitten will be perfectly healthy as there are many conditions we don't have the tests for yet. I hope they are healthy, but the vets doing a quick once over isn't a health test. Did they swab their mouth for genetic tests and did they do snap tests for FIP, feline aids etc?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

It's a bit unfair to compare the weight of a moggie with what sounds like a large and slow-maturing pedigree breed. 6 pounds is small but not tiny in the moggie world, but I agree the cat should be on high-quality food from now until her kittens leave her. Her condition is far more important in my view than her weight. 

Certainly quite a few Oriental / Siamese breeders have found the size of the queen a poor indicator of breeding ability - was speaking to one the other day whose small dainty girl successfully delivered a large litter, and whose chunky large girl had to have a section and was neutered. In other words external size isn't an indicator of internal size, or mothering ability.

HOWEVER as with humans, breeding an immature queen isn't good for her, and condition before conception matters.


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## SloanMahria (Jan 13, 2012)

My male was neutered shorty after their mating. She is on high quality dry kitten food mixed with shredded chicken. I have her on the dry because she refuses to eat the wet, I have tried every brand and she won't touch the stuff, she never has. I know she is not underfed because I free feed her. I can't force her to eat more than she wants to. Also she is not skinny she is just small. She is short and has small paws and is just a petite little thing. As for the kittens I do have homes lined up. I may decide to keep them depending how large the litter is. She will be fixed as soon as she is able. The vet said probably once the kittens are weaned. As for the testing they did do a swab and some blood work. I just told the vet to test her for anything that could harm her or the kittens. I know for sure that she had a feline lukemia test as well as the feline aids test. There were also many more but the paperwork is in a safe in storage so I cannot tell you exactly which ones. I am just hoping everything goes well. I am beating myself up over the whole situation and I will not stop until she delivers so I hope I don't have to long of a wait. Thank you all very much for the advice and your concern. You are all amazing people.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

SloanMahria said:


> My male was neutered shorty after their mating. She is on high quality dry kitten food mixed with shredded chicken. I have her on the dry because she refuses to eat the wet, I have tried every brand and she won't touch the stuff, she never has. I know she is not underfed because I free feed her. I can't force her to eat more than she wants to. Also she is not skinny she is just small. She is short and has small paws and is just a petite little thing. As for the kittens I do have homes lined up. I may decide to keep them depending how large the litter is. She will be fixed as soon as she is able. The vet said probably once the kittens are weaned. As for the testing they did do a swab and some blood work. I just told the vet to test her for anything that could harm her or the kittens. I know for sure that she had a feline lukemia test as well as the feline aids test. There were also many more but the paperwork is in a safe in storage so I cannot tell you exactly which ones. I am just hoping everything goes well. I am beating myself up over the whole situation and I will not stop until she delivers so I hope I don't have to long of a wait. Thank you all very much for the advice and your concern. You are all amazing people.


the kittens will still suckle and wont be weaned till 12weeks of age, sometimes later so she cant be neutered until 13weeks min


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

Ok so not an ideal situation but you do seem to care. 
Wishing you all the best


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Hopefully it'll all go well for you and mum. Can you feel them kicking yet? you can usually start to feel tiny movements at 5 weeks, and then really viggorous ones around 6.5 to 7 weeks.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sounds like you are looking after her well. Did you know when they mated? Kittens are due on or about 65 days after the first mating, though my friend's Siamese is still holding on at 70 days!

Has she been wormed and had flea control? There are products for both that are safe for pregnant and lactating queens.

BTW when I kept one of the kittens my first cat had, she would have nothing to do with him once her favourite was away! The shutters were firmly down on the milk bar and he was quite confused about what was going on. Thankfullly his uncle still loved him.


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## SloanMahria (Jan 13, 2012)

I caught them mating on Jan. 13th so I counted her due date to be the 16th of march but the vet said its likely that she actually conceived before the time I saw them mating because she has never seen a cat mate the way kiki did. He had her pinned down on her back in stead of the normal way. Has anyone seen a cat do that before. When I took her to the vet for the ultra sound she got her ears cleaned and the vet gave us a topical medication called revolution that treats worms fleas and earmites. Yeah I can feel them/move and see them it feels like there is butterflies in her tummy.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I have actually seen that! on youtube, someone videod 2 cats on their roof mating like that  

sometimes my girls roll over on their backs, but this is to get away from the stud and kick at him with their legs, girls I find are alot like the wild cats, they play hard to get as if you day 'are you worthy?' 

So they hiss/spit/growl/smack fur flys everywhere, sometimes pinning the boy up against the wall! But its all the rountine, after a while as he persists SLOWLY!! and patiently waits, she will start to relax and think 'he might be a worthy mate, his still here'  so she will roll about showing off, maybe letting him smell her bits/ wash her, then paddled her back lags facing away from him and he will 'test' her by putting one paw over her back to see how she reacts, my boy also makes LOTS of noise, he chrips, and makes a odd high pitch sound! lol Then he will sit and watch then go for it once they are ready!

Of course their are times when the girl is still in the 'showing off mood' and will hiss him off, and he retreats, to watch and wait again!! 

But anyway!! You count from 2days from the first mating, to give the sperm time to reach the egg, for the bith dat, they can go from day 63-70, but 'average' is day 65


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

spid said:


> based on bog standard moggy genetics (and I did tell you this on your previous posts) - tabby with or with out white, and possibly (but less likely as they are both tabby parents) black with or without white. Nothing different is likely. All shorthaired.


But 2 shorthairs can produce longhairs, as my moggies did when I was a kid!  So there could be some longhairs in there, if both parents carry 1 longhair gene


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

can't be bothered anymore


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## SloanMahria (Jan 13, 2012)

Maybe I caught them right after the deed was done. The vet said the kitten she saw looked like it was big enough to be born so she said it could be anytime within the next 3 weeks. I really hope that she conceived earlier than I thought I hate waiting. That would be awesome if lily had a longhaired one. I hope she has one tabby girl and a black boy. I really hope she has at least one girl. Everyone says that males are cuddlier than females but I don't believe that because I have had tons of males and none of them liked to cuddle. Every female I have had always wants to cuddle especially lily. I just want them to come so I don't have to wonder if she is gonna be okay.


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## Kenyania (Feb 23, 2012)

Good luck with everything! We adopted a prgnant stray six years ago. She still lives with us and is absolutely tiny. She was smaller than your cat when she gave birth. It went completely fine, but I'm not saying yours will. We kept one of her sons, he's twice her size and about three times her weight. He's the complete opposite of her.


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

spid said:


> Gosh if we go into the realms of 'could' when talking about recessive genes we'd be here for ages working it all out. The realms of probability of both of them carrying a long haired gene AND both passing one each to a kitten mean it's very unlikely. They could also both produce chocolate, blues, colourpoints etc IF they both carry the genes but it's very unlikely.


It's not that unlikely! I had a black shorthaired moggy, and a tabby and white shorthaired moggy, when I was growing up. They became the parents of 2 litters before we neutered them, and that included 4 longhairs and 6 shorthairs. Of those, 3 were blue coloured as both parents must've had the dilute gene! We had (in total) 4 tabbies (3 with white), 3 blacks (2 with white) and 3 blues (2 with white and 1 blue tabby!!) 
I wouldn't breed moggies now but in the past, we didn't realise how many stray cats we could be creating!  We kept 2 of the kittens (a fluffy tabby and white, and a shorthaired black and white) and CPL homed the rest. Wish we could've kept them all, though!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Chocolate & colourpoint are unlikely - very - but I agree, black, blue (tabby or self) & LH can all crop up from tabby x tabby moggie matings.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_Good luck, i do hope all goes smoothly for mum and kittens, keep us posted._


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## SloanMahria (Jan 13, 2012)

Thank you all for your comments. Lily seems to be doing well. I anm a little worried though she is more hyper and crazy pregnant than she was before she got pregnant. Is this normal? She is running around the house like a maniac with her tail all fluffed out. I read somwhere that the kittens moving makes them want to play but that seems odd to me. I just set up another kittening box today and she reall seems to like it. I am also going to get the rest of my supplies today. I am so afraid I am not going to be able to tell when she is in labor so I was thinking about taking her temp but I didn't know if that would be to stressful on her. I think im just paranoid.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Have a look at the video of my Rosie in my Still Waiting thread  She went to day 69, still running around and playing as normal.
If you stay with Lily 24/7 you will know when she starts labour. I spent a week before Rosie was due sleeping in the spare/kitten room with her - I'm still there now to keep an eye on the kittens in the night


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## SloanMahria (Jan 13, 2012)

Okay I feel a little better now. I just think its funny that she never acted like that before. Her birthing boxes are in my room because it is the quietest room in the house so I will be with her.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I took my girl's temperature because I was so paranoid, but most breeders don't do this at all. you need to have a very good relathinship with your cat to do it safely though, so please be wary.


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

carly87 said:


> I took my girl's temperature because I was so paranoid, but most breeders don't do this at all. you need to have a very good relathinship with your cat to do it safely though, so please be wary.


You can now get a microchip fitted which will take the cat's temperature when it's scanned! 
Jumpy's got one as he screams the place down when the vet takes his temp...


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## SloanMahria (Jan 13, 2012)

Yeah I don't think im gonna chance it ill just watch for the signs. as for the chip that is really cool I have never heard of it.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

yes its a mirco-chip in the UK, but dont take her to the vets for a microchip is too stressful, and dont take her temp, your know when she is giving birth, you have to stay with her 24/7 so it wont be hard to miss  

r.e. the colours Yes its possible, but its rare, hence whhy 99% og moggies are ginger/black/black&white/tortie/tabby/etc/etc


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