# Dodgy breeder?



## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

Hope I'm allowed to put this on here. I won't mention any names. 
There is a breeder who is consistently breeding litter after litter from her girls. I wondered at first if it was maybe just because one of her girls called so much it was best for her to have a couple of litters close together and then be spayed but this is not the case. 
This latest girl is due any day. She had a litter of 6 earlier this year and must have been put to stud again when her babies were 8/9 weeks old. They seem to have 2-3 litters from their girls in a very short time, each time overlapping with having kittens from the last litter still with them while being pregnant with the next. Then the girls are sold on on the active register, often saying they are pregnant by her active reg stud boy. 
I understand that a letter from the vet can be sent if breeding is considered to be on the best interest of the girl but what I don't understand is how come they are able to do this multiple times with multiple girls when all the kittens are sold as gccf registered. I feel so sorry for them


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## aria2013 (Feb 23, 2014)

Poor cats :-(


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Gccf I think allow 3 litters in 24 months, so if she has 3 litters in the first year I wonder what happens next year when she wants to register.

Personally I feel it takes a while to get the queen back into top health after a litter so I only have one litter per year from each queen.

There are ways of taking queens out of season so having so many litters close together saying its for the queens health I personally find that as just a lame excuse.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I don't know much about GCCF rules but if a queen is allowed 3 litters in 24 months and then this breeder sells the queens on in kitten, then they are just using their cats as cash machines and nothing more but probably not going against rules etc....probably immoral though and I feel sorry for the cats.


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## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

She seems to sell the girls on after using them for breeding for a year. 
Poor girls


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Fife days max of 3 litters in 2 years with an additional condition of max 2 in one year. 

I agree that there are ways to space litters. Accidents can happen once but not more and sold on active, pregnant, is a bit ...:/ that is one of my biggest fear when it comes to my kittens


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The real issue here to me is selling on when pregnant, and selling when she is pregnant by their active stud boy. This allows the new owner to register any kitten active. She probably doesn't provide any mentoring either, should the new owner require it.

I won't take issue with how many litters / kittens - I've heard of queens who are on their 3rd call since kittening by 8-9 weeks, and these queens seem to lose more condition by calling than by being pregnant while feeding a litter. In my view one knows one's own queens. A 'registered BYB' isn't going to let the queen getting run down stop her.

This sort of thing has brought up before (including by you), and I remember in one of those threads I commented that I couldn't find anything specific in the rules & regs for GCCF restricting how many litters / kittens could be registered in a specific period of time.


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## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

I have posted about this before but with now knowing all her cats are being bred back to back with no time in between litters and then being sold on, often pregnant again it just made me sad. 
Somebody said that the gccf recommends at least 17 weeks between litters so if its only a recommendation and not a rule there's nothing that can be done. I did wonder if they'd be bothered if someone was constantly going against their recommendations but mainly my post is just a frustrated rant!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Back-to-back might be the best thing for them. No-one can make a judgement about that without seeing the cats.

However selling on pregnant is absolutely wrong in my view.

And correct, it is merely a recommendation with the GCCF, and I couldn't even find a reference to 17 weeks when I tried to find it so if someone has a link to the recommendation on the GCCF web site that would be interesting.


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi there,

Why not give the GCCF a call and discuss this with them, informally or formally - am sure they will be able to advise directly and give precise detail on what their recommendations are in regard to responsible breeding practices and which situations would deem further action such as involvement of the Disciplinary Committee say on welfare grounds?


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## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

I've been searching and can't find anything about minimum time between litters or 3 litters in a 2 year period. I git my prefix approval pack today with lots of information sheets and booklets and there's nothing about it in there either. I am sure I've heard from others there is a minimum time between litters. I'm going to email them and ask


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Time flies said:


> I've been searching and can't find anything about minimum time between litters or 3 litters in a 2 year period. I git my prefix approval pack today with lots of information sheets and booklets and there's nothing about it in there either. I am sure I've heard from others there is a minimum time between litters. I'm going to email them and ask


Unless the 'others' can provide a link to a GCCF document, they are wrong and there is nothing beyond a recomendation which was all I could fine.

The Kennel Club does have rules, so does Fife (another cat registry) so maybe that is confusing the 'others'.

BTW Lola never lost weight with her first litter (6), and looks great with her second litter (6) which are 3 1/2 weeks old. They were born just over 10 months after her first litter. She doesn't call much (only every 6 weeks) otherwise it would have been 9 months after.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Time flies said:


> I've been searching and can't find anything about minimum time between litters or 3 litters in a 2 year period. I git my prefix approval pack today with lots of information sheets and booklets and there's nothing about it in there either. I am sure I've heard from others there is a minimum time between litters. I'm going to email them and ask


I got my Prefix back today too yay yay yay ... I have read 3 in a two year period

I only breed my girls once a year , but if I had to bred 6 months after thier last litter due to condition and health I would ..


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

As OrientalSlave says, there is no rule in this regard. I'm not even sure there's a recommendation. There isn't a 'one size fits all' which is why it's impossible to apply rules. 

It's hard to believe that, when you see breeders back-back mating their queens, that it's for the health/benefit of the cats - sometimes, with certain queens, yes... when it's most or all their girls then it's clearly an exercise in churning out kittens for sale. It's even worse when you see pregnant queens advertised for sale and I know that the latter is something GCCF, at the least, take a very dim of view of.


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## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

I asked if they had any recommendations/rules regarding number of litters as I'd heard not more than 3 litters in a two year period and a minimum of 17 weeks between litters a number of times but couldn't find any information about this and was told that this is the general advice they give out however it can vary from breed to breed and cat to cat so would be best to ask breed club.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Cosmills said:


> I got my Prefix back today too yay yay yay ... *I have read 3 in a two year period *
> I only breed my girls once a year , but if I had to bred 6 months after thier last litter due to condition and health I would ..


Where, please?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I've had litters 10 months apart which means the girl was mated eight months after she gave birth. Admittedly this was followed by a fifteen month gap. It's just how the girl called. I've never really understood how a breeder can guarantee one litter in a year every year.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Exactly. You need to work with what your queens need.

The 3 litters in 2 years works out as 17 weeks between kittening and the next mating, but you're right, it's only a recommendation and not a rule.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Where, please?


Somewhere , I have it in my breeding note from 2 years ago... So got it from somewhere on the GCCF site . Think it was regarding registering litters . As I have it writes on my BSH reg policies

Loads of ppl have said the same so I know am not dreaming it


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Several people have said this but so far no one has provided where the gccf rules say this.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

will not purposely breed any female more than three times in two years in line with GCCF recommendation..

It was originally on the code of ethics


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Cosmills said:


> will not purposely breed any female more than three times in two years in line with GCCF recommendation..


Sounds familiar to me. My first Siamese was such a strong caller I had to be aware of that rule...lol


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

There's nothing like that in the current code of ethics:
http://www.gccfcats.org/pdf/ethics.pdf

Nor in the extended Breeder Scheme version:
http://www.breederscheme.gccfcats.org/documents/BS_COE_booklet.pdf


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> There's nothing like that in the current code of ethics:
> http://www.gccfcats.org/pdf/ethics.pdf
> 
> Nor in the extended Breeder Scheme version:
> http://www.breederscheme.gccfcats.org/documents/BS_COE_booklet.pdf


When was it last updated


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Cosmills said:


> When was it last updated


Sorry not the faintest idea and neither document has any sort of date on.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If 3 litters in two years is listed then it's a return of an old recommendation which was dropped. They do keep changing the wording and at one point it became a much more general term about the queen's health. I don't believe in tightening any recommendation or rule on this matter though you would be going some to have more than 3 litters in the timeframe. In reality it only encourages the less scrupulous to attribute 'oops' litters to another queen and mis-register the kittens.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

GCCF Rules (which includes any written recommendations) from 2008 with amendments up to date are published online and it contains no rule or recommendation as to frequency of litters within a set time period.

The Breeding Policy was published in 2010 and again contains no such wording.

Whether it contained such a recommendation prior to 2008 I don't know.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Having just spoken to someone on the GCCF Board of Directors and has (and still does) sat on most of the various GCCF committees at one time or another, they've said this was never a written rule/recommendation. What apparently happened/happens is that the registrars alert the office manager to anything untoward in this regard when processing registrations.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> Having just spoken to someone on the GCCF Board of Directors and has (and still does) sat on most of the various GCCF committees at one time or another, they've said this was never a written rule/recommendation. What apparently happened/happens is that the registrars alert the office manager to anything untoward in this regard when processing registrations.


Thank you for clarifying the situation.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Must say that I thought at one time there was a laid down rule or recommendation for this. I'm wondering now if it was just word of mouth between breeders... I mean one of those situations where someone "knows" something and tells it to another who tells it to yet someone else and all of a sudden it becomes fact


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Must say that I thought at one time there was a laid down rule or recommendation for this. I'm wondering now if it was just word of mouth between breeders...


I'm pretty sure it was a rule at one time, at least when I was breeding in the 80's and 90's.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> I'm pretty sure it was a rule at one time, at least when I was breeding in the 80's and 90's.


I really thought so too. Though I've been breeding since the early 80's the person I spoke to this morning has a level of involvement with GCCF far greater than mine has ever been (and probably a better memory too)... but I'm still not completely convinced she's correct!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> Must say that I thought at one time there was a laid down rule or recommendation for this. I'm wondering now if it was just word of mouth between breeders... I mean one of those situations where someone "knows" something and tells it to another who tells it to yet someone else and all of a sudden it becomes fact


I think you are right, and also there might be some confusion between KC and GCCF rules.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Well for me too have it written down it has to be something I have read when researching breeding/breed. 

I have spoken to 5 breeders today, and all have said the same self thing... 

Well where ever its come from its come from somewhere


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Well where ever its come from its come from somewhere


I do have a memory of it being quoted as gospel back in the 80s but I've never seen proper documentation. These sort of things do perpetuate through word of mouth and with alarming speed now we have the wonders of the internet. People do claim all sorts of things even on this forum and when pushed for a source give decidedly dubious websites. Within a very short time complete myths can become 'fact'


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Cosmills said:


> Well for me too have it written down it has to be something I have read when researching breeding/breed.
> 
> I have spoken to 5 breeders today, and all have said the same self thing...
> 
> Well where ever its come from its come from somewhere


It has but it's wrong so no point in chewing the bone. Surely you'd much rather spend time gazing at all your kittens?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> <snip>
> These sort of things do perpetuate through word of mouth and with alarming speed now we have the wonders of the internet.
> <snip>


Just about every single 'warning' post I've seen of FB has been an urban myth.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> It has but it's wrong so no point in chewing the bone. Surely you'd much rather spend time gazing at all your kittens?


Your right, not that I spent alot of time on it, just a pasting convo with the breeders that rang this morning ... Am not totally sad in the head lol


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Thinking back on it, I'm almost certain now that I was told this by a breeder friend. I've gone over the documents I was sent with my prefix (4 or 5 years ago now) and can't see it anywhere in there, so I think you're all right in that it perpetuates through word of mouth.


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