# Toilet Training a 5 week old staffy pup



## patches_mum

Hi
we bought a puppy last week for the first time, have never purchased a puppy before. it was advertised as 6 weeks old but after purchasing & taking him home we were told he was probably only 4 weeks old. we couldnt take him back as the owner had too many and wasnt allowed any more pets on his property plus we didnt want to cos we had fallen in love with him at first sight. he is a great pup, knows he needs to go outside for a pee but just cant seem to hold it in long enough to get to the door. _Any suggestions?_ I have bought some toilet training pads & spray atrractant but he simply pees right next to it on the uncovered floor. sometimes he is too lazy to get up to go to the door so he just pees where he is lying. _Any suggestions?_ I have read threads & people have said that he should go back to the mum, but this is not an option. Does anyone have any suggestions? I actually dont know much at all about puppies etc. I read a thread this morning about if he hasnt had his vac. shots then he shouldnt be outside, well over the last week that we have had him, we spend everday outside and down the park. He is great on a lead too. So the only prob I have at the moment is his peeing everywhere, every5 mins....please help.


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## LostGirl

He should be with mum and i think he should be on puppy milk still 

he shouldnt be at the park at all, he could pick up all sorts of nasty things which could cause him a great amount of pain and even kill him 

As for the toilet training to be honest i dont theres a massive amount you can do except take him out in to the garden every 5-10mins as he will be unable to hold his bladder at all at this age as hes way to young. He isnt lazy he just doesnt realise untill its coming out that he needs to go


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## charmedlassie88

He shouldn't be from his mum before at least 8 weeks! I'm totally shocked at this thread. 
You cannot expect a 5 week puppy to be toilet trained within a couple of days. It can take months! 

You just have to keep with it. As for taking him out before any of his vaccs, thats just crazy!! You're just asking for health problems.


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## patches_mum

OMG......I thought I was subscribing to a forum of people who were going to be HELPFUL!!! not judgemental.

If charmedlassie88 had actually read my post you would have seen that this is my first puppy so Im really SHOCKED!! at your response to my thread. I was asking for help not your own personal opinion about what I was asking.

And if both charmedlassie88 & Daynna had read the post properly, I already know the puppy should be with the mum but that is no longer an option.

If you are going to add to this thread, please be helpful with your suggestions.

P.S -what does puppy milk have to do with him peeing????? I have puppy food which the pet shop gave me which is apparently the best thing to give him.


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## sequeena

5 weeks old and outside?! :yikes: That really isn't acceptable!! He won't have the same immune system as an 8 week old pup who has been with its mum for protection. Even a pup at 8 weeks who has been with its mum shouldn't be out and about especially in a park where they can pick up anything 

Right now you are not going to be able to housetrain him outside. He is simply too young to understand as the mum usually shows them what to do.

I'm all for socialisation but you really cannot chance his safety by taking him out. I'm afraid you are unlikely to find a vet who will vaccinate before 8 weeks so it's a case of letting him only go in your garden (if you know no strange dogs go in there).


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## Akai-Chan

It;s obvious this is your first puppy as you obviously know NOTHING! If you had done even a modicum of research you would know that puppies shouldn;t be away from their mum until at least 8 weeks, if not 10 or 12. You should also know that you shouldn;t be taking him outside until he has had his jabs and they have taken efect (12 weeks) otherwise you are risking your puppys health and possibly life.

If being with the mum is no longer an option why did you get him in the first place?



Peace
Akai-Chan


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## sequeena

Akai-Chan said:


> It;s obvious this is your first puppy as you obviously know NOTHING! If you had done even a modicum of research you would know that puppies shouldn;t be away from their mum until at least 8 weeks, if not 10 or 12. You should also know that you shouldn;t be taking him outside until he has had his jabs and they have taken efect (12 weeks) otherwise you are risking your puppys health and possibly life.
> 
> If being with the mum is no longer an option why did you get him in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> Peace
> Akai-Chan


To be fair hun the OP didn't know the pup was only 4 weeks. It's not uncommon for dogs to leave their mum at 6 weeks. It's not ideal but it does happen and it's better than leaving the mum at 4 weeks!!

Me thinks the breeder got f***** off with the pups and sold them on ASAP!


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## wooliewoo

Has the pup seen a vet as they would be able to give a better guess at age or do you know for sure pup is only 5 weeks. They will be able to advice over worming etc as this should be done 2 weekly at this age.

My pups at 6 weeks were just about going to toilet on paper and now at 12 weeks they go on paper in puppy pen but when out in house they go to back door to go out


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## Akai-Chan

sequeena said:


> To be fair hun the OP didn't know the pup was only 4 weeks. It's not uncommon for dogs to leave their mum at 6 weeks. It's not ideal but it does happen and it's better than leaving the mum at 4 weeks!!
> 
> Me thinks the breeder got f***** off with the pups and sold them on ASAP!


True but still, I consider even 6 weeks too young. Puppies need milk from their mums for immunity until they have their vaccs and also to help them grow.

@the OP - You cannot expect a 5 weeks old pup to hold it's b;ladder for more than 10-15 minutes at this age (at best). it;s just something you're going to have to deal with until he is older.

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## muse08

Thats terrible,Who ever you bought this pup from should be reported to the RSPCA,pups shouldnt leave their siblings and mother until at least 7 weeks old.Is the pup eating solid food?If it is eating some solid food make sure your feeding it at least four/five times a day and get some lactol(puppy milk) and give some of that as well.

Please dont take your pup out i public places until it has had both its vaccinations at 8 and 12 weeks old.
You also need to get drontal wormer(liquid) this should be done every two weeks until its 12 weeks old.
There is no way you can expect a 5 week old puppy to be clean/toilet trained either.I would advise you to get a puppy pen and use your puppy pads in there for a week or two until its old enough to start the toilet training process properly.


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## KarenHSmith

That's a shame, that he might have been taken away from his mother abit earlier. Just keep giving him alot of care, and foods etc. Keep him warm. 

Definately don't let him near parks - he needs his parvo jab first, incase he catches something he won't be able to fight it. 

Just keep indoors, with lots of love. You can get a special formulated milk - sometimes in a powder form for puppies

As for puppy training, make sure you take him straight outside when he wakes up - puppies always sleep alot and they need to be taken out in between the sleeps.


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## Nonnie

May i suggest you do the following:

Buy the Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey.

Book in with a vet ASAP to discuss vaccinations, worming and flea treatment. He will most likely have internal parasites. I strongly doubt the "breeders" have bothered to worm him.

Find some local training classes for support as he grows up. As a first time owner, and especially with an SBT, you will need guidance.

I wouldnt rely on a petshop giving decent advice in regards to nutrition. What have they sold you? How often are you feeding him?

I wouldnt worry to much about the toilet training right now. Its far more important at this age to get his feeding and general health in order first.

EDIT: as stated, do NOT take him outside until his vaccinations are complete. You are potentially risking his life, and parvo virus is rampant right now. Its a horrible and painful way for them to die.


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## patches_mum

Okay....
for clarity - I didnt actually purchase the puppy, my husband brought it home one night for our daughter. He had no idea of what the age was except of what the owner said.
The next day I took it to the pet store to get some food, advice, collar etc. The trainer at the pet store said he was only 4-5weeks old at the very most. So Im assuming if he was younger then today he would only be 5 weeks old, they weighed him at 1.5kg. I got worming tablets etc. The trainer at the pet shop didnt say anything about keeping him inside except to keep him away from pets until he got his shots, so forgive my ignorance but until this morning I have been given limited advice.


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## babycham2002

Nonnie said:


> May i suggest you do the following:
> 
> Buy the Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey.
> 
> Book in with a vet ASAP to discuss vaccinations, worming and flea treatment. He will most likely have internal parasites. I strongly doubt the "breeders" have bothered to worm him.
> 
> Find some local training classes for support as he grows up. As a first time owner, and especially with an SBT, you will need guidance.
> 
> I wouldnt rely on a petshop giving decent advice in regards to nutrition. What have they sold you? How often are you feeding him?
> 
> I wouldnt worry to much about the toilet training right now. Its far more important at this age to get his feeding and general health in order first.
> 
> EDIT: as stated, do NOT take him outside until his vaccinations are complete. You are potentially risking his life, and parvo virus is rampant right now. Its a horrible and painful way for them to die.


I had just come back into this thread after checking the title of the Gwen Bailey book. As I was going to recommend it.
Above advice - Perfect. Puppy classes are super fun as well as being good for your pup.


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## deb53

O my goodness...

Yes, as has been said your pup should not be away from his Mum but as he is then we can only advise and then it is down to you if you wish to take any of the suggestions.

Firstly, please do not take your pup out of your premises until he is fully vaccinated. A young pups immune system has not been built up and especially because yours has been taken away from mum so young ( he would have been getting anti-bodies from mums milk) so extra special care must be taken. Also to be walking a tiny young pup of that age will do his bones harm.

Regarding the house training... He is not going to have ANY control of his bladder/bowels at this young age and it is going to be by chance that he goes outside. But you can start to encourage him by taking him outside as soon as he wakes, after he feeds/drinks, and during play. Praise is essential.
You will also need to get up to him to let him out at night too.

Yes a pup is like a new born baby and you need time, patience and a lot of love.

Also worming..I doubt if coming from the type of home he has come from he would have been wormed properly (if at all) so a good wormer from your vets is essential....not off the shelf ones.

I really hope he gets on well but as has been said he should be with his mum at present and you have a long hard task ahead of you.

This is why reading and research is essential before lining these peoples pockets with money


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## muse08

[QUOTE/.
P.S -what does puppy milk have to do with him peeing????? I have puppy food which the pet shop gave me which is apparently the best thing to give him.[/QUOTE]

people have mentioned giving milk because they might think that if you are unaware/oblivious to the fact that a 4/5 week old pup cannot possibly be expected to become house trained straight away that you might not know about the nutritional requirements of a five week old pup either.Guess their offering advice for the sake of the pup.


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## Nonnie

patches_mum said:


> Okay....
> for clarity - I didnt actually purchase the puppy, my husband brought it home one night for our daughter. He had no idea of what the age was except of what the owner said.
> The next day I took it to the pet store to get some food, advice, collar etc. The trainer at the pet store said he was only 4-5weeks old at the very most. So Im assuming if he was younger then today he would only be 5 weeks old, they weighed him at 1.5kg. I got worming tablets etc. The trainer at the pet shop didnt say anything about keeping him inside except to keep him away from pets until he got his shots, so forgive my ignorance but until this morning I have been given limited advice.


Pet shop wormers are next to useless. Some ( Bob Martins) can even kill animals.

You will have to get the decent stuff from the vets.


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## Guest

patches_mum said:


> Okay....
> for clarity - I didnt actually purchase the puppy, my husband brought it home one night for our daughter. He had no idea of what the age was except of what the owner said.
> The next day I took it to the pet store to get some food, advice, collar etc. The trainer at the pet store said he was only 4-5weeks old at the very most. So Im assuming if he was younger then today he would only be 5 weeks old, they weighed him at 1.5kg. I got worming tablets etc. The trainer at the pet shop didnt say anything about keeping him inside except to keep him away from pets until he got his shots, so forgive my ignorance but until this morning I have been given limited advice.


Well done you for logging on here for advice
When everyone has got over the shock, you will actually find most of this lot very helpful 
Sorry for the reaction that you have received, but some off what you have told us is quite shocking to experienced dog owners 
I hope you continue to ask for help here


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## LostGirl

patches_mum said:


> OMG......I thought I was subscribing to a forum of people who were going to be HELPFUL!!! not judgemental.
> 
> If charmedlassie88 had actually read my post you would have seen that this is my first puppy so Im really SHOCKED!! at your response to my thread. I was asking for help not your own personal opinion about what I was asking.
> 
> And if both charmedlassie88 & Daynna had read the post properly, I already know the puppy should be with the mum but that is no longer an option.
> 
> If you are going to add to this thread, please be helpful with your suggestions.
> 
> P.S -what does puppy milk have to do with him peeing????? I have puppy food which the pet shop gave me which is apparently the best thing to give him.


were was i judgemental ut: how can you get help without a personal opinion? people help with thier knowlegde so dont get your knickers in a twist there was no attack or anything on you.

Please read up on parvo, so me saying dont take him to the park is a HELPFUL suggestion unless you really want to risk his life which as you said you love him already you dont want that.

First dogs are hard work and its a learn curve, you make alot of mistakes but you do learn from them. Puppy foods brilliant (unless its bakers) but he'll need more and it moistened down for him aswell.

You should also report the breeder i know they might not do anything but its not only cruel to sell a pup so young but they also lied to you about the puppies age.

I wouldnt want to give the pup back either you grow attached within hours of getting them i know that if anyone had tried to get me to return one of mine they wouldve been told to sod off, and the fact i dont think id trust them either if they lied about age e.t.c 

and like i said him peeing is down to his age, my pup was 14weeks before he could hold for a good while, but i good tip for cleaning up the wee his washing powder or white vinger they take out the smell so he wont keep going back to that spot thinking thats his loo


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## sequeena

patches_mum said:


> Okay....
> for clarity - I didnt actually purchase the puppy, my husband brought it home one night for our daughter. He had no idea of what the age was except of what the owner said.
> The next day I took it to the pet store to get some food, advice, collar etc. The trainer at the pet store said he was only 4-5weeks old at the very most. So Im assuming if he was younger then today he would only be 5 weeks old, they weighed him at 1.5kg. I got worming tablets etc. The trainer at the pet shop didnt say anything about keeping him inside except to keep him away from pets until he got his shots, so forgive my ignorance but until this morning I have been given limited advice.


Please take your pup to the vet as the people in pet shops know bugger all usually! I have a 12 weeks old pup who I thought was 8 weeks and was told by the vet she was 10 weeks old. I thought she was a bit too big! (she's a mastiff).

There are a lot of diseases your pup needs to be vaccinated against - parvo, distemper and kennel cough being only a few. You really need to be careful right now as his immune system is probably very weak.

I'm sorry for the way most of us reacted but you have to understand this is very worrying for us. Please stick around


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## ninja

sorry have only skimmed through this thread so if i repeat others please excuse me :blushing:,

we all know that this pup is to young to be from its mother but what has happened has happened and we cant change that,


you should get some goats milk for him which you can get from most supermarkets,

also you should only be taking him out in your own garden (presuming you have your own) so that he cant pick up any nastys from other dogs, 


am now gonna read the thread properly


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## Guest

Well, I hope she comes back.


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## james1

patches_mum said:


> OMG......I thought I was subscribing to a forum of people who were going to be HELPFUL!!! not judgemental.
> 
> If charmedlassie88 had actually read my post you would have seen that this is my first puppy so Im really SHOCKED!! at your response to my thread. I was asking for help not your own personal opinion about what I was asking.
> 
> And if both charmedlassie88 & Daynna had read the post properly, I already know the puppy should be with the mum but that is no longer an option.
> 
> If you are going to add to this thread, please be helpful with your suggestions.
> 
> P.S -what does puppy milk have to do with him peeing????? I have puppy food which the pet shop gave me which is apparently the best thing to give him.


peaches - you got 2 replies and then youve reacted like someones said the worlds going to end. (see above). Ive not read the rest of the posts - but this is a complete over reaction. 
Again, 5 weeks old the pup shouldnt be with you.

EDIT: just to give something constructive - toilet training will take a good couple of months at least to really set in. Toilet training isnt your first priority here - your priority is the security of your pup, warmth and proper nutrition. Any one of these just mentioned if not done correctly can severely affect the development of the pup from behaviour to general health. Constructive advice not criticism. Very best of luck it will feel like years by the time hes 3 months old so be very - super patient.


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## PennyH

Welcome to the forum.
Please stick with it, as you will get helpful advice.
People are sometimes a bit quick off the mark to judge, but you obviously care about your pup or you wouldn't have taken the time to have a look on here for some advice.
As others have already said, try and get a vet appointment for Monday if you can and definitely only carry your puppy when you are out - don't let it on the ground at all, because without the vaccinations he could pick up all sorts of horrible diseases that could kill very quickly.
At his (her?) young age, you should be feeding 4 - 5 meals a day and your vet can advise you on the best food to give, as well as puppy milk.
A pup of this age is just like a tiny baby and will have no control over his wee or poo just yet! He will learn though if you are patient and don't tell him off - just gently encourage him when he does it in the right place and especially if you also reward him with food for doing it in the right place, he will soon learn.
Good luck and hope you can post a picture soon so we can all have a look at your new little bundle of fun!!


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## ninja

rona said:


> Well, I hope she comes back.


me to, but to be honest i dont blame her if she doesnt


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## k8t

Hi

There are some mixed messages on this thread, so I just wanted to clarify a couple of things for you, as if you have limited experience of owning a puppy, you will probably be getting a little bit confused.

I have unfortunately had to rear many puppies taken away from mum too early, or mum being unable to care for puppies, or owners just not realising puppies should be with mum until 7 - 8 weeks old and it is, I am afraid to say, hard work!!! (especially if you have 8 to feed, top and tail, every two hours!).

Firstly, I would say take the puppy to your vet, don't rely on Pet Shop advice, good as it is for older dogs, you need to accurately age your puppy and sort out a proper worming regime. Puppies are automatically born with worms, (it is triggered in their mums when they whelp (have babies) and automatically passed to the puppies). From how your obtained your puppy, I wouldn't think either mum or pups were wormed. Like a previous poster says you need a puppy wormer for very young puppies, every two weeks and then monthly, longer - depending on the brand, for the rest of their lives.

Secondly, if your puppy is eating puppy food without problems, he may be slightly older than you think. If he is younger and having trouble eating, he may still need to have milk. Please don't give cows milk, it isn't easy for dogs to digest. Ask the vet, or go to the petshop and buy some lactol, this is a milk powder that you can make up and either feed in a bowl on its own, or add to dried puppy food to make it soft - like porridge, to help him eat it and get him onto normal food. You can also try dried food, as the puppy will start to chew on it (and play with it!) Avoid tinned puppy food at this stage, it is high in salt and water and may cause an upset tummy, at the least runny (toothpaste type) poos!!! 

Thirdly, make sure your puppy has a safe area, preferably enclosed, as his den, just as he would with his mum, ideallyn put in it a cardboard box on its side. Put a soft clean towel, or blanket in with him (have several pieces as you can wash them easily and replace as needed. Put newspaper under the bedding to absorb any puddles he may make, when he doesn't make it out of the bed! There is a special bedding you can buy called Vet Bed, which has a backing that draws moisture away from the top and is ideal for puppies, but it isn't cheap.

Have some more newspaper just outside your box, a few inches from the bed itself as, chances are the people who had his mum would have used newspaper.

Unfortunately, a puppy who has been taken away from his mum to early, may not have learned to be clean however, around 3 - 4 weeks puppies will naturally try and leave the sleeping area to toilet. This improves with time too, but you have a long road ahead until you have a toilet trained puppy! 

As you have found out, puppies have tiny immature bladders with weak muscles and as soon as they move, they need to pee or poo, as they get stronger, they are able to walk away from their bed and pee, but if you watch a litter of puppies, it literally is only a few paces away, hence putting the newspaper a few paces away (gradually over the next few weeks, you move this a little further and further until it is near the door. When your puppy pees on the paper tell him good boy and give a little stroke, if he pees on the bedding just change it, say nothing. You may be changing the bedding four or five times a day or more initially, which is why a large bath towel cut into several pieces is ideal. If he pees on the paper, don't clear it straight away, leave it for a scent. If he poos, pick the poo up with some kitchen roll, but leave a little residue on the paper. Puppies usually go to the same place each time and this is a good marker for him.

If you do take your puppy into rooms with carpets, bear in mind he may need to toilet every 30 mins or less and immediately on waking, so watch him well, it is a good idea to keep the puppy in a washable area for the first week or two!

The advice about taking him out to public places is right, there is far too much risk to put a puppy on the ground anywhere where other dogs may have been that you do not know have been vaccinated. Puppies can get some nasy things the main ones are Distemper, Hepatitus, Leptospirosus and Parvovirus. All these are contained in a vaccine of which your puppy will have two, several weeks apart. Your vet will advise you when these need to be done and may do them slightly earlier, at 8 weeks, as it is unlikely the mum was vaccinated and therefore the puppy won't have benefited from her antibodies, which are again passed on from mum and will last a few weeks in her puppies.

However, what is really important at this stage and up until 16 weeks is that your puppy is well socialised (meets people and friendly dogs) and habituated (hears noises and experiences environments). There has been done a lot of research to show that if puppies do not have positive experiences during this period, they may grow up to be fearful of things around them. 

You are probably now wondering how this can be done if he can't be put down!!! 

If you have a garden that is enclosed and not visited by any dogs whom you do not know their history, then you can put your puppy down here. In fact research with assistance dog charities has shown that puppies benefit greatly from being able to explore their surroundings in this way. I always made sure our orphaned puppies had different textures to experience too, cardboard, paper, foil, grass, concrete, sand etc., You can also introduce friendly dogs, which you know have been vaccinated during this time, but don't scare your puppy, bad experiences as well as good ones, will have a long term affect on how your puppy grows up. 

If your puppy is kept in the kitchen, it will experience sounds around it, i.e. washing machine, TV, general noise. Get people coming in to fuss your puppy too, young people, old people, people with beards, hats etc. etc. Children too with supervision. 

You can also carry your puppy out into the world, let him hear the road, the cars and people in the street (but don't put him down on the pavement until two weeks after his second jab).

There are some people on these boards that say a puppy shouldn't go out atall, but this is not accurate, Again, research in the 1960's with Guide Dogs, concluded that the benefits of controlled exposure far outweighs the negatives, and makes for a balanced well adjusted adult dog.

When your puppy is 8-9 weeks old, put a soft collar on him, they will scratch like mad at it first, so put it on for short periods, i.e. when playing, eating etc., until he gets used to it and practice in the house and garden with a light puppy lead, using food under his nose to encourage him to walk forward, if he sits or pulls back, let him, don't pull or drag him, just encourage him forward again and praise with the food and your voice.

I am a bit confused that you say your puppy is good on the lead already and this would make me think that perhaps he is older than you think, as this is a skill that puppies only usually master in the 9-11 week period.

The book 'Pefect Puppy' is exactly what you need and will tell you most of this anyway, only much more stylish than me!!! Ask your vet about any puppy classes they may run for puppies who have started their vaccinations, very often the nurses will hold 'puppy parties', which allows your puppy to meet other dogs of the same age and interact safely with someone watching who knows what they are doing. It is also an opportunity for you to meet other people in the same boat.

Best of luck, owning a puppy is a joy and a priveledge, it is hard work and sometimes you will pull your hair out, but when you are sitting on the sofa with a tiny puppy and its milky breath curled up on your lap, it is one of the best things in the world!

Kate


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## james1

just to say - you could ask locally for a bitch to suppliment his milk with. Royal Cannin also do a good puppy milk which would be worth buying for a week or two. Raw mince is also good if you ever read these


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## lorilu

<deleted comment about the offensive post that revived this one year old thread>

Hope the puppy in question managed okay. I too was shocked that someone was concerned about house training such a young puppy, and had brought the baby to a public area.

The lesson here would be, *if you are going to adopt a puppy, do some research first, to be prepared as to what to expect.*

I would have thought _anyone_ would know that an infant puppy is not ready to be house trained. But, clearly that is not so.


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## canuckjill

removed offending post and the one with the quote


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## ddb

wot a brill post from k8t................u mite want to read up on breeding puppys as this will give u an idea on wot u should be doing over feeding etc as its about that age when u start weaning from mothers milk to solids


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## Karlm1006

LostGirl said:


> were was i judgemental ut: how can you get help without a personal opinion? people help with thier knowlegde so dont get your knickers in a twist there was no attack or anything on you.
> 
> Please read up on parvo, so me saying dont take him to the park is a HELPFUL suggestion unless you really want to risk his life which as you said you love him already you dont want that.
> 
> First dogs are hard work and its a learn curve, you make alot of mistakes but you do learn from them. Puppy foods brilliant (unless its bakers) but he'll need more and it moistened down for him aswell.
> 
> You should also report the breeder i know they might not do anything but its not only cruel to sell a pup so young but they also lied to you about the puppies age.
> 
> I wouldnt want to give the pup back either you grow attached within hours of getting them i know that if anyone had tried to get me to return one of mine they wouldve been told to sod off, and the fact i dont think id trust them either if they lied about age e.t.c
> 
> and like i said him peeing is down to his age, my pup was 14weeks before he could hold for a good while, but i good tip for cleaning up the wee his washing powder or white vinger they take out the smell so he wont keep going back to that spot thinking thats his loo


Alot of ignorant people on here ive been in the same boat my pup now 7 weeks ive had for 3 days goes to the back door and crys for a wee were his training pad is on the back of the door in the coal house best thing we found is when he woke from his sleep is put him on his mat and he would wee if he messes pick him up dont shout and put him on mat for a few mins so he or she knows it dose work remember to reward when he dose hope this helps


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## Guest

This is an old thread started in 2009.


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