# Rescue dog problems. LONG!



## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

I'm currently fostering a 2-3 year old mongrel, with a view to adopting him.

His behaviour is getting worse the longer he's with us and it's absolutely doing my head in. He's such a lovely dog and I don't want to make his problems worse by handing him back in to the rescue but at this rate I don't know if I can wait until someone else wants to adopt him and I really don't think I'm up to training him myself 

He's understandably got separation anxiety which I thought I could deal with but he's shown absolutely zero progress since we bought him home on Tuesday (I know this isn't a long time but surely there should be _some_ improvement?). If anything he's got worse as he will no longer settle at night unless he's in our room - he spent his first few nights in the living room with no problems then refused to settle so we decided we'd start with his basket in our room and inch it out every night until he was ok being in a different room.
He also stayed in his basket until we got up the first few mornings. Now he wakes us up barking and getting on the bed at 7am. He follows me from room to room and I've tried closing doors behind me, gradually building up to longer periods of time etc, but there is literally no improvement. Does it just take more time than this?

He's showing increasingly more interest in my mice and gerbils which he was totally disinterested in when we got him. Obviously I have to put my other animals first and I can't risk their safety. His interest in itself isn't a huge problem but he's a big dog and can easily get to their cages. There is no putting them out of his reach.

Today I took him for a walk and he had two fights. The first the other owner insisted it was his dogs fault so I let him off lead again. The second fight he literally had another dog around it's neck shaking it from side to side. I dragged him off and pushed the other dog away but when I accidentally let go of his collar he went for another round. Luckily none of the dogs were hurt so perhaps it sounded worse than it was but it was an absolutely horrible experience. I'm not sure if he did start these fights or not because he has been fine with every other dog we've seen.

which leads me to the fact that he's not at full strength at the moment as quite underweight, when he's got all his strength I think he may simply be too strong for me (i'm 4ft 11 and not very strong).

Now tonight he's repeatedly getting on the sofa with me. At first he was getting down when I told him to so I either fussed him or gave him a treat when he went back to his bed. then he started repeatedly jumping up so I had to pick him up and put him back on his bed. He's _finally_ staying in his own bed after over an hour of me persisting but I was near tears. 
Nope, now he's got off his bed and settled right next to my side of the sofa.
as I finish writing this he's got back on the sofa with me and I've put him back on his bed again.

He doesn't know any commands, not even sit, so I don't think he's ever been trained.....or perhaps his last owners tried and he didn't respond to training.

He's booked in to be neutered (I had him early as he was doing so badly in kennels) on Monday so I'm hoping this will have a positive effect but how much should I be expecting?

I have depression and part of getting a dog is because it gets me out of the house and I've always been significantly happier with a dog in the household. My partner works a lot and I really want the company.....but I think one of my gerbils is dying and with all this today I just feel exhausted and like giving up on it all.

Any advice on what else I could try or opinions on what I should do with regards to returning him to the rescue would be greatly appreciated. I just feel at such a loss and I really have no idea on how long it will take him to settle or how long it generally takes to see a change in behaviour.

If you've read all of that I thank you so so much.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

There is a long sticky on here about separation anxiety which you would do well to read in detail. If you haven't worked it out, a sticky is one of the first posts you will come across on the Dog Training part of the forum. I have no experience of this, sorry.

He is not going to sit, or anything else, until someone has taught him what the word means. Hold a tasy treat over his nose, keep bringing it upwards slowly until he sits as as soon as he does say the word "sit". They have to sit if their nose goes up far enough because they can't do anything else.

If he has had no training, you should begin either training him yourself, or taking him to classes, or getting a _qualified_ behaviourist in to help. Ask about qualifications, don't just take their word for it.

Tuesday is what, four days ago? You really do have to give him time to settle. He has been in rescue, he is trying to enjoy this new home, but he is anxious that it will be snatched away. When you leave the room, he does not think you are coming back, so he makes sure he doesn't let you out of his sight.

Now tonight, getting up on the sofa with you. Don't you have fireworks going on? You might not be able to hear them, but I bet he can. If you really don't want him on the furniture, just try sitting on the floor with him for a bit, just until the fireworks go away. We all hope that won't be too long.

You really can't give up on him yet. He has been traumatised and needs constant reassurance until he feels more secure.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sorry, I thought you said you were new. Forget what I said about stickies; I am sure you already know that.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Hi BattleKat,

Dogs with deep-rooted issues will need a lot of work. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to see no improvement in 4/5 days, he still needs to learn to trust you, which can take a long time (it can be months if not longer for some dogs). The neutering doesn't usually have a significant effect on the dogs behaviour and if it does I think it can take up to 6 months to manifest itself. Do you not want him on the sofa? You have to lay the ground rules from day one and follow them through. Where did you get him from? Our local rescue has sofas for the dogs in their kennels so I think ours thought that's just where he went  We didn't mind as we allow him on the sofa but it can cause some problems in their new homes. I'm really sorry about your gerbil  Would it be possible to build shelves for them or put them in another room, somewhere he couldn't access them?

Personally I wouldn't let him off lead again. I don't know what others would suggest about muzzling? You could build his confidence up by learning him a few basic commands, there's a factsheet on the Dogs Trust website on how to do this:

Dogs Trust - Factsheets and Downloads

I think it's more likely that his owners didn't bother training him than him not responding, most dogs I've come across will at the very least learn 'sit' for a tasty bit of chicken or cheese.

It can be really difficult dealing with depression and looking after a dog that needs a lot of training etc. You need to remember to take time out for yourself when it's getting too much  If this little guy is too much for you to cope with (and there's nothing wrong with that at all!) then speak to the rescue, you need a dog that suits you and he also needs to be matched to an owner with the right tools to train him (no reflection on you whatsoever!). When we first got our dog we were at our wits end, he had so many issues and it caused so much pressure. However, when he started displaying signs of progress after working with him over the months, we now wouldn't be without him. He's still a 'work in progress' but they do learn and become more comfortable with you as time goes by  It's still really new for both of you and it could get better over the weeks, you could see how he gets on? But please don't feel pressured in to keeping him...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Shibby, I think that's rather bizarre to have sofas for the dogs at a rescue! I like the idea myself, but so many people do not want dogs on the furniture, I can see it causes no end of problems. Do they ask prospective owners if they mind the dogs on the sofa?

I certainly wouldn't let this dog offlead just yet anyway. He is not used to you and may not come back. You really shouldn't let an adult dog offlead until you have had him at least four to six weeks, and done some recall training with him.

If you put all your energies into training and rehabilitating this dog, it may help with your own health problems, give you something to focus on.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Shibby, I think that's rather bizarre to have sofas for the dogs at a rescue! I like the idea myself, but so many people do not want dogs on the furniture, I can see it causes no end of problems. Do they ask prospective owners if they mind the dogs on the sofa?
> 
> I certainly wouldn't let this dog offlead just yet anyway. He is not used to you and may not come back. You really shouldn't let an adult dog offlead until you have had him at least four to six weeks, and done some recall training with him.
> 
> If you put all your energies into training and rehabilitating this dog, it may help with your own health problems, give you something to focus on.


Yes, it's at my local rescue. The dogs have their kennels with a sofa in, some have picture frames (if I'm remembering correctly) kind of like little living rooms! I like the idea but the first thing I thought is that all the dogs with sofas will think they can just hop on in their new home. There's a chat about laying the ground-rules from day one i.e. no sofa, don't let them for the weekend then say no, just say no from day one and don't do a grand door and show them rooms they won't be allowed in, what's the point hehe (very true!). We were also told of people who got rescues, let them off lead in the park in the first week and they've been run over because they bolted off and the owner had no recall  Very sad. We started with the beach first as it's enclosed and a fair bit away from traffic.

I completely agree it can help with giving something to focus on, but if you get in to a 'funk' (for want of a better term) and have a dog with a lot of needs, it can be especially hard to deal with...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

You have a beach? I am so jealous! I want to take my two to a beach, but the nearest one is two hours away and I don't know if that will be too much for them. They are not used to going farther than Huntingdon (about 25 miles) in the car.


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

The one thing he does have is very good recall, and he was only off the lead in enclosed spaces so there wasn't any way he was going to get away from me, but I think I agree that I shouldn't let him off the lead again. 

I've read the sticky but had no idea how long these things are supposed to take. If he'd stayed the same I'd have felt ok but he just seemed to be getting worse and I felt like it was my fault because I don't know what I'm doing (even though I've done tonnes of reading and do know what I'm supposed to do)

there weren't any fireworks when he started getting up on the sofa, but there are now and he's settled in his basket since my OH got home. 

I think I just felt pressured because the rescue said they'd really like an answer by monday - but he's not even being neutered until monday. I think the fact they ideally wanted an answer by then was making me feel like he should be settled and I should know by then.

Thanks for the responses guys, it's really made me feel a lot better. I think I'm going to tell them I need some more time to see how he progresses because at the moment he's too much for me but I don't want to give up on him. 

thanks so much.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Arw yes, they adore the beach, we're taking them tomorrow as it's supposed to be sunny. It's about 3 miles away but by the time we've picked up the pup, dropped him off etc. it's about 20 miles


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I think it is very unreasonable of the shelter to expect you to decide and this dog to fit in in a week! Goodness sakes, it takes that long for a young puppy to feel at home.

You tell them you need more time, and spend it trying to work with him. It could be a particular breed of dog that he doesn't like. I have heard there are some dogs like that. I know 75% of the spaniels we meet will yelp just when they see my two. They don't even have to be close to them.

But I wouldn't let him off near other dogs until you are sure of him. He may have been attacked or something; rescue centres don't have all the answers about any dog, do they? They only know what the owners have told them.

I am sure you will be able to help this doggie and he will help you. Take care.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

The important thing to remember is that this dog is NOT being naughty. Not that you think it but it is so important to keep telling yourself this! I still have to repeat it when my boys do silly things that we as humans would consitute as 'naughty' !! This is why 'humanising' dogs can be such a bad thing. 

Anyway......

The first couple of days for a new dog in a new home is very scary, stressful and confusing, amongst another things. So his personality will not be 'true' as he is still trying to understand everything. It seems to be worse for rescues. Especially as this poor lad didn't settle in the kennels. This signals he is extremely confused generally. Its is so common with kenneled rescues.

First things first, basic training will do wonders for the dog and yourself. Training (positive reinforcement) will help install a confidence in him and generally make him more secure as he will learn his boundries and therefore will feel less stressed and confused. If he were mine i would definately concentrate on doing it at home and in the garden, then very gradually bring in distractions to the training. Eventually, training classes would benefit but maybe once he happy and on the way to being basically trained.

Training really can change a dog. They get bonding time, they get mental stimulation, they get to 'do things right' and this makes them feel happy etc etc But remember once you start training to always end with something he can do right so he ends on a high note and never over do it. I do roughly 10 min sessions several times a day to keep interest.

How many walks does he get a day? And for how long? Exercise will really help, as will mental stimulation. A lot of people forget this very important factor. Which is where training comes in.......but also throwing some of his meals outside in the garden! Its sounds strange but i can not rate it highly enough! It keeps their brains active and encourages them to use it! They need to use their instinct to forage and really can tire them out!

It really is baby steps! Small steps lead to big changes! 

Oh and i have not just posted this as advice. I went throught the same thing with my Springer Spaniel. I rescued him December 2008 (albeit privately) and he knew nothing but his name pretty much! A working type and not exercised enough etc He lapped up training, physical and mental.

Taking Ben on was a serious wake call. I found such deep patience i never knew i had! I found a lot of things, and yes it was frustrating and sometimes i felt like giving up and crying! But the rewards have been ten fold. Seeing my boy so happy and loving life is just the MOST amazing feeling :thumbup:

P.S. Sorry for the looong post!  I didn't realise it was so long until i read it back


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

BattleKat said:


> The one thing he does have is very good recall, and he was only off the lead in enclosed spaces so there wasn't any way he was going to get away from me, but I think I agree that I shouldn't let him off the lead again.
> 
> I've read the sticky but had no idea how long these things are supposed to take. If he'd stayed the same I'd have felt ok but he just seemed to be getting worse and I felt like it was my fault because I don't know what I'm doing (even though I've done tonnes of reading and do know what I'm supposed to do)
> 
> ...


You really shouldn't feel pressurised in to making such an important decision. I'm not sure how this rescue works but I'm sure they'd be willing to give you more time with him on a foster-basis? It's good for him to be in a home and out of kennels.

If you start the 'positive training', you *will* see an improvement. It's up and down, we're currently training our dog and new(ish) pup, we have good days and bad days but it's all to be expected, the good days make up for the not so good ones!  They all learn at different speeds like we do so please don't be put off by him appearing to have taken a few steps backwards. You could try doing some of the basic commands over the weekend, it might give you both a confidence boost.

Take care x


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

I've been trying basic commands since we got him, but i don't really know where to start - every other dog I've had has at least known "sit" "lie down" and "off" when it's come to me. 
He will go to his basket if I say "basket" while crouching next to it and patting it, and has done dozens of times but he doesn't seem to recognise what the word actually means yet.
same with "off", he will get off the sofa when I point at the floor or pat the floor, but other times he just seems to bury himself in to the sofa - perhaps that means he knows what I want and just doesn't want to do it?
If he's on the bed he won't get off no matter what I do. I have to pick him up and take him off - but I'm worried he'll see that as good attention.
I will try the sit method recommended earlier, does anyone have any suggestions for "stay"? I think that will be an important one with us. 

Half the time he leaves the treats I give him, he's quite underweight and I think he's only got so much space in his belly.

I can't take him in the garden at the moment because he goes ballistic at the rabbits and the chickens - another thing I'm going to have to work on. he was fine with the chickens & bunnies at the rescue :frown:

Today I literally ended up shutting myself in my bedroom and crying, I just think it's just too much for me to take on by myself. I can't get to the only training classes around and can't afford the one on one sessions. :frown:


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

It's not unusual for a dog to not know any commands but they are keen to learn (especially for treats). Have you tried using a clicker? It's very useful for reinforcing behaviours, like whenever he's in his bed you could click and reward so he learns it's a 'good place to be'. Have you tried saying 'bed'? Bit random but I've heard it used more than 'basket' so he could be familiar with that one?

He could be chancing his arm on the sofa but he might genuinely not know what you want and is unsure what you're asking of him. What treats are you using? It's good to have a variety, we use all sorts (hot dogs, apples, primula, corned beef, ham, chicken, sardines etc). Can you keep the bedroom off limits?

If you go on that Dogs Trust link I posted (Dogs Trust - Factsheets and Downloads) and download the PDF for basic commands it will tell you how to do "sit, down, come, stay and walking on lead'. There's other factsheets on the website e.g. socialisation, housetraining. Do have a look as it's a really useful resource, I recommend it all the time 

He's probably just overwhelmed at the moment. It's a shame you can't get to the training classes, would the rescue not be willing to work with you on this? The big ones usually do...


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

thanks for the link, think I somehow missed it before. 

the rescue is a reasonably small local one but is miles away. I only live in a small town so there's not really anything here.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

BattleKat said:


> thanks for the link, think I somehow missed it before.
> 
> the rescue is a reasonably small local one but is miles away. I only live in a small town so there's not really anything here.


Ahh right. I find it helpful reading about other people's experiences, it gives me some perspective on things. Have you read through the forums about other people's experiences with foster dogs? I remember this one recently, I hope no one minds me posting:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/130130-hug-please.html
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/130301-foster-dog-full-story.html


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

The dog has obviously got some big problems the most of which seems insecurity which is understandable. I think you said that he wasnt doing well in kennels by which I think you may mean he was suffering kennel stress which is why you have fostered him in possible view of adoption? It is early days at the moment he is obviously following you about because hes probably stressed out to the maximum bewildered and afraid of being left and as I said he wouldnt have had time to settle in yet its very early days.

The first thing you need to honestly ask yourself is can you cope. Are you in a position to see it through and do the long haul that this dog will need to get him adjusted. You have to do whats right for you and the dog. This isnt a critisism or any judgement on you. I notice you said you were suffering from depression that in itself is an uphill battle at times I know for the sake of your health and wellbeing alone you need to make sure that your not taking on too much. Im thinking of you and the dog. Hes already insecure if he starts to get settled and the longer hes there with you the harder its going to be for him to hav e to readjust yet again and harder on you to let him go if it comes to it. If the answer if yes you can do it and commit then ok go ahead but only you can answer that its your decision.

I wouldnt let him off the lead yet its too early days. You need to build a bond first. For now keep him on the lead. As regards to treats for training few dogs can resist things like sausage cheese hotdogs etc so you can try very tiny pieces of these to train him. Does he like toys if so you can use toys as a reward too. Hes 2 to 3 years old looks like hes never had any training and with an older dog it usually always takes longer than a puppy so if progress is slow im not surprised. If your not sure how to begin training is there someone at the rescue who can just show you how to go about it just the basics of teaching sit down etc. Your not going to be able to teach the lot all at once anyway but if theres someone there who can actually demonstrate how to teach each one then you have a start. Also have you got a local library they might have some basic training books in there you can borrow and that will cost you nothing. If you have a pets at home near you they do training books and you can look through them before you buy and that will cost you very little.

As regards to the separation anxiety you need to start leaving him initially for a few minutes at a time. If you buy a dog control gate you could try leaving him in the kitchen without actually shutting the door so he doesnt feel isolated. Put hes bed in there and maybe some toys and chews and maybe a stuffed frozen kong. Take him in there close the gate and just walk away. Try if you can to return when hes quiet and settled and let him out again without saying anything. Just do it for a few minutes each time for the first day or two several times a day while your there and if and as he copes build up the time over a period. By leaving him his special things keep them just for when he is left he should make the association of something nice when you leave. He should also slowly realise that you going away always means that you return. Hope these few suggestions might be of help.


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

I think the seperation anxiety is the biggest problem. I have to work 3 days a week from 9-4 and I can pop up every couple of hours to make sure he's ok but that's it. 

I've just emailed the rescue to ask what they think is best, as he's going up for his neutering on Monday and I thought it might be best if they pick him up from that rather than him coming back here. Like you said, the longer he's here the worse it's going to be for him when he leaves.

I don't think I'm cut out for quite so much. It's only five days in and I've been in tears most of the day (although the dying gerbil, partner having no days off for 2 weeks and PMS hasn't helped ). 

I feel awful, it's so hard knowing what's best for him.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Working is going to be a problem thats true sorry didnt realise you worked. Does the rescue by any chance know any of his history that might give any clues? Having said that he may be a stray and even if he was brought in by the owners they dont always tell the truth. It is worth a try if we find anything about him it might give some better ideas how to go about things.

Have you actually gone out and left him for any length of time. You could just try what I suggested if you want to tomorrow and just go upstairs for a bit say in the morning and then you can hear what hes doing. If throughout the day you actually try it a few times. He probably will cry or bark but at least that way you will be able to tell how long for and if he does settle after a time.

As I said the bottom line is how much you think you can cope with. Whatever you do I know it will be the right thing for you and him.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

BattleKat said:


> I don't think I'm cut out for quite so much. It's only five days in and I've been in tears most of the day (although the dying gerbil, partner having no days off for 2 weeks and PMS hasn't helped ).
> 
> I feel awful, it's so hard knowing what's best for him.


It is very soon and a lot of people feel like they have bitten off more than they can chew but it's kind of like the initial shock of it all. If you genuinely think it's a little more than you anticipated, even considering it's only early days and his behaviour isn't going to be great (I cried a good deal over the first few weeks when we got our dog), then maybe it is worth considering asking the rescue to collect him on Monday. Separation anxiety is a common issue and can be worked with, just as he can be taught commands to build his confidence and learn his boundaries as to where he can and cannot go in the home. Did you want a dog who needed training or a dog with relatively few issues?


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

I've been to work Wednesday and Friday and when I came home (aprx. every 2 hours) he'd emptied the bins and burst open bags of gerbil and mouse food and spread them over the floor. The mess doesn't bother me and I know that he could be a lot worse but that combined with him following me around the house and going absolutely mental when I get home means I'm sure he has separation anxiety and must be quite stressed when I leave.

He does have plenty of his own things to play with but usually when I get home they haven't been moved. I bought him one of those treat balls and a kong and he only gets those when I go out (sort of a plus side to me going out and something to do) but he ignores them.

He doesn't bark or whine and I'm in a flat so I can't go upstairs and see how long that persists for.

This morning he's also started digging at the bottom of doors if I close them behind me which he wasn't doing before. On the other hand he has let me walk out of a room without getting up this morning which is massive progress.

I wanted a dog with relatively few issues I suppose, I was expecting some separation anxiety and training but we were planning on a smaller dog that simply can't get up on the bed, I'd be able to easily lift off the sofa, wouldn't be able to jump the 3ft rabbit fence and wouldn't be able to get to the gerbils so that's a whole bunch of issues solved.
A dog that's ok with others was a must because we're planning to leave him with my mum and her dog if we have long days out - he did actually seem fine with charlie for what it's worth.

I've not heard back from the rescue but I really don't want to do this over the phone because I know I'll end up blubbering and not getting proper words out 

He was found as a stray but we're fairly sure he was beaten as he was absolutely terrified of men (particularly my OH) for the first day or two.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Our dog follows me everywhere, even in to the loo! But he doesn't have separation anxiety, he's just a shadow. We him have the run of the flat and recorded him once, he spends most of his time curled up on our bed  which we don't mind. When you leave to go out do you just ignore him? Unfortunately some dogs won't entertain Kongs. Has he ever had one before? If not you could let him have a try whilst you're in and encourage him to play with it? What breed is he (sorry if you've already mentioned)? We've had small dogs (JRT size) who can clear 6ft fences! It's good to hear he gets on well with Charlie so far, it can be a little rocky the first few weeks/months of getting to know each other. We're in the thick of it with our dog and puppy at the moment, the pup lives at my mums but they go on walks together to the beach/parks etc. 

It sounds like he's had a meagre start to life, the poor little guy. I hope you can get some support from the rescue, whatever your decision may be...


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

To be honest considering his history the fact that he was kenneled and had kennel stress came to you which has only been what 5 days give or take and for two of them you have been at work I would say all things considered its not that bad if you put it into perspective. 

The rabbit and gerbil food can be removed and so can the bin. Incidently my one whos 12half now who came at 15mths did the same with bins she also managed to get a bag of rabbit food and do the same thing. If his started to scratch at the bottom of doors maybe the idea of a dog control gate on the kitchen so he doesnt feel shut off and isolated might solve that one. Think you said he doesnt bark and whine? well that in itself is a big result if Ive got that bit right. You said you could see a result today when you walked out the room and left him so thats a bit of positive progress in the right direction.

If you can carry on popping back every couple of hours and on the whole he wasnt really that bad before considering he had only just got there really. That might continue to work. Dont forget the more he adjusts to you and your routine the more secure he should get. I think it night be an idea if you can take him out for a long or a long as you can walk before you leave for work. A tired dog whos been exercised is more likely to settle and rest whilst your out. If when you pop back you can spend even 5 mins just to have a little game with him that might help.

Possibly you might be able to find solutions and make it work with maybe the above and perhaps a few of the other suggestions I and others have made. Hopefully others will be able to suggest things too. There are experienced behaviourists and trainers on here much better than I am at this so hopefully they might pick up the thread and offer solutions.

Having said all this however, bottom line. How do you feel? Can you cope. Given work and any other problems you may have can you commit. Its how you feel thats got to be the decider. Ill leave it with you.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think the rescue are asking too much of you to decide within a week if you want to keep him, I mean it can take a few months for a dog to settle especially as he's from a shelter. Also after only a few days I think you are taking a big risk letting him off lead, regardless of his recall as his dog aggression is a worry.
My 57kgs Flynn is fearful aggressive of dogs and if your lil guy started on him (Flynns always on lead) he would definitely come off worse and you don't want that.

I think you're are wonderful taking on a rescue and am sure in time he will repay you but don't let him take over as you have yourself to look after too. Take each day at a time and don't expect miracles, you both need to learn about each other and after only a few days it's too soon to expect any real bond just yet.

Get him learning about you and your rules, i've just posted this on another thread but it's worth a read. 
Nothing in Life is Free


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

COAPE - Centre of Applied Pet Ethology


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

Thanks guys, I've felt much better today. I think yesterday was a mixture of things putting pressure on me and I really couldn't cope with it all at once.

I've done a lot of reading on separation anxiety (even before we got him) and everything I've seen basically says that leaving the house for extended times is going to undo any work you've done and obviously that left me feeling a bit like it was pointless trying, but on reflection I have seen a change in him and I'm sure that it will just take time.

If they push me to make a decision then the decision will be that I can't keep him but otherwise I'm just going to see how things develop 

I definitely will keep him on the lead now (and did after the second fight) until I'm sure he's ok.....
He'd just been absolutely fine with so many other dogs that when the first dog owner said it was definitely his dog that started it that I thought it would be fine to let him off again. The second owner also didn't seem surprised at all and when I asked if her dog was usually ok with other dogs she said "well you know how it is, sometimes two dogs just don't like each other" she also said "well that will teach him a lesson, won't it" which I gather she means teach him the lesson not to start on bigger dogs.
He also took an awful lot of provocation from charlie who was following him around, licking him and nibbling him and he didn't react at all, just moved away from him. 
So I do think it was more him being defensive than starting any fights. Both times he was just wagging his tail and acting normally until the fight started - no warnings signs what so ever (my old dog was dog aggressive so I'm well acquainted with the signs). 

I'm feeling much much better about the whole thing today so thanks for all the support.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

It's good to hear how you're getting on! And it sounds very positive. I really hope it works out for you all. I find it's hard to read dogs sometimes, (they can be very subtle) even though I've read up on body language etc. Our dog was attacked once and the two dogs that attacked him were off lead, they ran up to him, sniffed normally for a bit and then suddenly one attacked him and the other started  Two fights in one walk must have been unsettling for your little guy. I hope his neutering op goes well tomorrow! Hopefully the rescue will be less demanding with their time-frames...


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Read this thread with interest, pleased u r feeling better about things today 

I rescued my Rotty boy when he was 8mths, he had no training and had been stressed in kennels, didn't really know much about his history, and oh boy we had a roller coaster ride with him, it took a few months 4 him 2 really settle, I done some basic training in the garden then took him 2 obedience classes when I felt comfortable around him adn we haqd developed some bonding.

I used 2 sit and cry and wonder wot the heck i'd taken on, once he got his paws under the table so 2 speak, he used to spring between the 2 sofas, run round like a nutta, bite his lead whilst walking and jump atme, he was huge at 8mths as well, empty bins, ignore me and commands, it just seemed 2 be a haze of 2 steps forward 3 back, he is now 3.5 years, and u know wot is the best thing about rescuing a dog is when they come through the other end and all your hard work has paid off, he is such a dream dog 2 have around and he showed me the way, (although it didn't feel like it at the time),  dogs r the best medicine for mental illness, I know from experience, if u feel up 2 it then stick at it as it's so rewarding once they settle, good luck with whatever u decide 2 do  xx


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just had a thought that I missed before but picked up on your new post. If I remenber correctly the 2nd fight was just after the first when you let him off again? The owner of the 1st dog said it was his dogs fault so it doesnt look like yours started it but was more goaded into defending himself by the other dog. If so and it was that soon after he would have probably been in defence mode when he encountered the 2nd dog who by all accounts as to what his owner said sounds like he was pretty unpredictable too. If I have got all this correct it looks like your dog actually might not have started all the agression it seems more like he was just defending himself against the other two. Added to that he doesnt seem to have shown any aggresion apart from this and the fact that he was good with your mums dog? Looks like you might not have to worry about him actually being agressive as far as starting fights goes. Just make sure however you keep him on the lead until you assess him and know him that much bit better. The rescue should have temprement tested him to a degree? ask if they did and how they found him with other dogs.

Also if I understand correctly You have taken him on the grounds of a foster as he was not doing well in kennels with a possible view of maybe adopting permanently. If this is correct the rescue has no right to pressure into an answer after 5 days. If you feel maybe you are beginning to sort things out and you might be able to keep him then just tell them that but you need more time to make sure its the right thing for you and the right home for him. I take it theres no other people interested in him at the moment? If so and hes just going to go back to the kennel which his not happy in anyway by all accounts I dont see what harm its going to do if he stays with you a bit longer. Some dogs go into foster for weeks before they find their permanent homes. I take it you havent got hold of the rescue yet? If so and you think it might be worth a try why dont you have a think over all everyones on heres discussed with you and how you personally feel and discuss it with your OH and see how you feel in the morning.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi. I just wanted to give u my support. As a volunteer at my localrescue, people like yourself are angels and give these dogs a chance. 

I have 4 rescue dogs. 2 were street dogs from Greece. They came with so many problems. The few months were awful. For the first time in my life I genuinely felt depressed. So to actually medically suffer from it, must be awful. It took these 2 four months until they would come into the living room with us, as they were so scared. I toyed with the idea of returning them, but I couldn't bare the thought of letting them down (or failing lol), but that in itself puts pressure on yourself. 

Dogs r so sensitive and live by their senses. He will without a doubt be picking up on your anxiety. You have been given lots of good advice already. But the main thing is to RELAX and try to take a more "don't care" attitude. 

Keep things simple. If your worried about your small pets, put them in a room where the dog can't get them. 

Neutering will help calm him down. But ultimately your calm, don't care attitude will have the biggest effect. 

You talk about training. For the next week think about teaching him to sit. If it takes a month, then it takes a month. Then move to the next command. U don't need a training class - take the pressure off! 

The separation anxiety is hard to deal with and there r many things to try. Spending time in kennels can make a dog very clingy. Be harder about it. Cryin in your room is sending out the message u r weak. He will pick up on this and want to be with u. Ignore him more, fuss him when he is doing something good. Defo not when he's anxious/crying/over excited etc. 

If it doesn't work out, then u can foster a less demanding dog. Some dogs r very hard work. And I believe sometimes the dogs will is stronger that the owner. Hence why it is difficult to manage them. 

So relax, remember it took my guys six months! Be strong and stick to your guns. 

X


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

I just got an email back from the kennels to say they will pick him up from his neutering so I've phoned them to say I've had a bit of time to think about it and will try him for another week and see how things go. 

The lady said that's great, no pressure to make a decision at this point. 
She thinks the only reason the other girl said ideally I'd decide in a week is because they've had another dog in foster care and the fosterer has been putting people off seeing the dog for over a month but hasn't said he wants to keep the dog - this was actually the dog that I really wanted to meet in the first place. 

I think by next week he'll have had a much better chance to settle in and if I do decide he has to go he will be somewhat recovered from his op rather than going through it all in kennels. 

Tbh I don't think he's the dog for me but I don't want to see him back in kennels so will do my best to look after him until he finds someone to adopt him.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Its better for him to recover in a home rather than in kennels especially as he was stressed inn kennels. It will also give you a further chance to decide what is best without any pressure. One thing I forgot that might help is a DAP Diffuser or collar. The mum produces a pheromone to calm and reassure her pups. The DAP dog appeasing pheromone products emit an artificial version of this pheromone. I have been using it for the fireworks. Its also very good for dogs and puppies in new homes and situations. Vets sell them but usualy more expensive than on line. Vet-Medic - the same medicines as your vet at consistently low prices. Order line 0800 387348 if you think it might be worth considering. If you pay extra couple of quid for 1st class you can have them next day. Good luck let us now how your doing and what you decide.


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

tbh I didn't know if it was worth spending the money on the DAP stuff since I've heard really mixed reviews with some people claiming it's a miracle cure and others saying they saw no difference. 
We also had a severe plumbing problem since we got him which has not only added to my stress but cost us quite a bit so I don't really have £20 to spend on something that might not work for a dog we're probably not keeping - I know that sounds awful 

Thanks for the suggestion though, I can't tell you how much I appreciate this.


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## costelloe (Nov 2, 2010)

Hi, 

I'm new to these forums, and I've come across your post because you're directly next in the line from me, and everyone on here has been so supportive of me, I really want to be able to give something back. 

The dog I'm tackling with at the moment is similar to yours in the respect that he's an old rescue it seems to have no concept of training, and no concept of obedience, the only difference is that mine is attacking me instead of other dogs!

Until this new dog I've never had an issue with rescues/aggressive/specific need dogs.. and so from the things you've said, I honestly think that realistic, down to earth training can really help you. 

The dog I just got had NO training, not even sit. Because of its' anger issues I've been advised to do 10-15 minutes of treat training a day. Its had sucj a positive effect. 

What I did was sit with both dogs ( I already had a dog) and say "SIT" whilst moving a treat over the dogs head. It looks up and is more comfy for it to sit down. When it sits.. say Good boy and give the treat. It might not do it the first time.. my new resuce is a basset, the worlds most stubbron animal, and 3 years old, it may still bite me, but he sat after two days doing that for 15 minutes. So when he's being a **** I can go back to that trick and reward him.

Then I did paw, same technique, I kept saying paw hoping it would guess like my original puppy did, I gave techniques to help, e.g picking up his foot, tapping his foot, whilst saying paw. Eventually it will move it's paw, even if it's just slightly, and then even if it's a tiny movement reward the dog massively.

Don't do more than 10-15 minutes it can be stressful for them after a while but it will teach obedience and maybe help the park situations. Plus it gives you a great way to bond with dog in a positive way!

I'd keep it on a really long lead so it feels free on walks, and you feel happy and its a nice occasion for you both until he's come into so much contacts with other dogs that you can trust him. I know alot of people on here have become desensatised to pet dogs and how people want to treat a pet because they are so used to having dogs that are perfectly, obedient. I only want a pet, so please only do what I've said if you have the dog for a pet, and not if you want a well trained, follows your ankle dog!

I'm just your average Joe!

(female average joe lol)


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

Just a little update:

He's getting worse at night at in the mornings, running around like a loon and whining. If he gets in to our room he leaps all over the bed (and me - which is rather painful)
But....He sat and stayed while I took 6 whole steps backwards today! And he's let me go in to other rooms without following me.
He's also got the idea of what his toys are for which is great because he can entertain himself.

I think I can cope now until someone else adopts him - which I don't think will be long because he's absolutely stunning and, despite a very trying start, a lovely dog.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

Arw, he's absolutely gorgeous isn't he?! I did post a message asking for a picture but thought 'how inconsiderate, he's just had an operation!'  He's lovely though. His progress sounds good, you're doing a great job BattleKat! Glad you've decided to keep him until he's fostered, get him used to home life and what not...


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

well last night he managed to get in to my gerbil cage, I found them both underneath a cupboard thismorning and one of them was all matted and wet and had clearly been played with. 
he'd also trashed all my boyfriends paperwork, broken in to a box of expensive ceramics and knocked all my paints and things off the dining table.
so that's another room he has to be shut out of while I'm out.

I phoned the rescue to ask if they had another foster home he could go to as it's not fair on him to be in such a small space all day and I was quite upset by their attitude and tone with me. I explained what had happened (I've been keeping them informed of how things are going and how hard I'm finding it) and she said "hang on a minute" then had this conversation with someone else there
"pup has to come back"
"why?"
"he's eaten a gerbil"
"what's her problem? It's not like he can do it again."

I've struggled through this whole thing, I've really done the best I can for him and they were talking as if I was some idiot who was giving a dog back because it had peed on the floor or chewed a cushion or something. 
It's not even that I was concerned with the state he leaves the flat in every night, I'm concerned for his welfare and the welfare of my other animals. 

I was just trying to do something nice and get a dog out of the kennels and I was being spoken to like I was total scum, I know it sounds silly but I really am upset.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Im not surprised your upset there was no cause to speak to you like that. If thats how they speak to people who sincerely want to help its not actually going to encourage people to offer help. As I said originally when you first posted bottom line is can you and for how long can you cope. If you cant and you only took him as a foster and not a permanent adoption then your not breeching anything you arranged with them in the first place. If I understand you correctly there was only a possibility of you making it permanent if the foster worked out. If you cant keep him then lets hope they can find another foster home.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

BattleKat said:


> well last night he managed to get in to my gerbil cage, I found them both underneath a cupboard thismorning and one of them was all matted and wet and had clearly been played with.
> he'd also trashed all my boyfriends paperwork, broken in to a box of expensive ceramics and knocked all my paints and things off the dining table.
> so that's another room he has to be shut out of while I'm out.
> 
> ...


THAT (bold) is the most callous thing I have ever heard from a rescue centre of all places! It sounds like the sort of sick joke you sometimes get from second rate comedians, and I expect that is where she got it. I presume you care about your gerbils as much as any other pet. I would be complaining to the managers if I were you.


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

Thanks, but it's a family run thing. Becky was the lovely girl that I've mostly dealt with and it's her fiance's family that owns it so I'd probably be complaining to the womans parents 

I think I'm going to phone tomorrow and speak to Becky about returning him ASAP. She's been really nice about the whole thing. 
I don't think I will be fostering any more dogs for them after this and almost certainly not adopting from them either. 

He's so lovely that I don't think he will be back in the kennels for long and he's been barking all day after being shut out of the living room which means my boss is complaining at me as well as you can hear it in work.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I think it best if you don't try to take on any foster dogs or rescues until you have got yourself sorted out. I have never had a rescued dog, but I can imagine it is one hell of a strain, especially if you are at work.


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I think it best if you don't try to take on any foster dogs or rescues until you have got yourself sorted out. I have never had a rescued dog, but I can imagine it is one hell of a strain, especially if you are at work.


I've got a troubled past lol, my problems are a long term thing and have always been worse when I don't have a dog in the house. If I waited until I was sorted out I'd never have a dog! :blushing: 
I understand some people may disagree and say I shouldn't have a dog but I care for all my animals well and it benefits me in a big way having something make me leave the house for long walks and having something to interact with when my partner's at work.
I only work 3 days a week at the moment so that isn't a huge issue.

I honestly think this dog is just such a strain just because he's so big - he can knock me over, get on to the dining table, get on the kitchen worktops, get in to the gerbil cage, etc etc.... If we had something half the size I think I'd find it a lot more manageable, there would be a lot less worry.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Why don't you go to the breed rescues? They have a much clearer idea of the dog's history, and can assess the situation more accurately. It doesn't sound to me like this particular rescue is that bothered about where they send the dog, so long as it is out of their way. Sorry to be blunt, but after the comment about your poor gerbil, it is the way I feel.

Look up some breeds, find out all about them, and contact the breed rescue. I think you might get a better result.


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

I've just got home from taking the dog back to the kennels. 

Becky was really lovely, told me I'd really helped them by giving them a better idea of what he's like so they are more likely to find him the right home, said she was really pleased I managed to push through for the last few days and that if I wanted to foster again then she would help me choose a dog that had been in the kennels long enough to get more of an idea of it's personality.

I'm in two minds about this rescue, Becky is absolutely lovely and really wants the best for the dogs and appreciates any help they can get but the others I've dealt with were just unpleasant. 

In the last couple of days pup had got worse again, barking when I left the house and guarding me when people came over. He'd also started getting a lot more rough in his play and biting me (playfully but it still hurt). 

Just wanted to say thanks again for all the support and to let you guys know how this turned out. When he finds a home I may post back to update you with the happy ending


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> I think it best if you don't try to take on any foster dogs or rescues until you have got yourself sorted out. I have never had a rescued dog, but I can imagine it is one hell of a strain, especially if you are at work.


Just wanted to point out that there are many dogs in rescue who are not particuarly challenging. Some dogs are there because their owners have got ill, or because of financial problems.

Clearly this dog was not paired with the right person, but I hope people are not put off fostering.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Just wanted to point out that there are many dogs in rescue who are not particuarly challenging. Some dogs are there because their owners have got ill, or because of financial problems.
> 
> Clearly this dog was not paired with the right person, but I hope people are not put off fostering.


I am sure people will not be put off. I wouldn't want to do it, because I would not want to give it up. If I ever did have a rescue dog, it would have to be for keeps.


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## BattleKat (Oct 26, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Just wanted to point out that there are many dogs in rescue who are not particuarly challenging. Some dogs are there because their owners have got ill, or because of financial problems.
> 
> Clearly this dog was not paired with the right person, but I hope people are not put off fostering.


Just wanted to say that, even as the person who has had this rather upsetting experience, I wouldn't want anyone to be put off either.

In fact, after a few days to really think about things and a chat with the nice woman at the rescue I've decided I probably will foster again if my landlord agrees. 
I just need to make my flat more dog-proof in case I end up with another destructo-dog!

I agree that there are tonnes of lovely dogs in rescues. Most aren't given up because of behavioural problems, they're given up because people aren't prepared to (or have become unable to) really look after their animals.


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## shibby (Oct 3, 2010)

BattleKat said:


> I've just got home from taking the dog back to the kennels.
> 
> Becky was really lovely, told me I'd really helped them by giving them a better idea of what he's like so they are more likely to find him the right home, said she was really pleased I managed to push through for the last few days and that if I wanted to foster again then she would help me choose a dog that had been in the kennels long enough to get more of an idea of it's personality.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the update!  If you don't feel comfortable with this rescue it might be worth checking out some others. I'd love to foster but don't have the space or time at the moment. Apart from our (rescue) dog's nervous disposition, he is a fantastic dog, he naturally heels, drops, sits, stays etc. and learns tricks within minutes. We didn't have to do much with him on basic commands but are learning him some tricks for his repertoire. I'm glad this hasn't put you off! I hope he finds a forever home soon, I'd love to hear how he gets on! xx


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