# Advice Please On Registration Papers



## Tracey W (Jan 25, 2015)

This is my first post on here and I am looking for a bit of information.
My daughter bought me a gorgeous Ragdoll, a breed I have always wanted from a breeder in the Borders (we are from Central Scotland). The home she came from was very clean and the cats were well cared for. The lady was in constant touch with my daughter from when she requested a kitten, throughout the weaning process she sent photos and my daughter travelled down twice before we got her. 
She had a choice of 2 litters from Seal Point or Blue Point, the seal point were from registered parents and the Blues were only the dad has papers (although there is no doubt about the female being Ragdoll). My kitten is a Blue Point, but no papers.

Can anyone advise me if there is any way I could register her? I have her Dads details but not her mums. She is 12 months old now and hasn't been neutered yet as I would love to have one litter from her, but not sure how to go about finding a stud if she doesn't have papers.

Any advise would be great, thanks


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Welcome to PF 
You need to get back to the breeder on this but if your kitten's mother didn't have papers your own kitten can't be registered. It was wrong of the breeder to breed from the queen if she wasn't registered. You should never breed from an unregistered cat even if you could find someone with a stud willing to take them.
There are so many reasons why females aren't all suitable to be bred from and one of the main ones with ragdolls is the hcm gene. If your cat's parents weren't tested - which I would doubt that they were - then you could be risking potential disaster with an hereditary heart problem 
Please get your girl spayed and do not even consider breeding from her. The chances are that you will not be able to register her


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

lymorelynn said:


> Welcome to PF
> You need to get back to the breeder on this but if your kitten's mother didn't have papers your own kitten can't be registered. It was wrong of the breeder to breed from the queen if she wasn't registered. You should never breed from an unregistered cat even if you could find someone with a stud willing to take them.
> There are so many reasons why females aren't all suitable to be bred from and one of the main ones with ragdolls is the hcm gene. If your cat's parents weren't tested - which I would doubt that they were - then you could be risking potential disaster with an hereditary heart problem
> Please get your girl spayed and do not even consider breeding from her. The chances are that you will not be able to register her


Hopefully lyn the op is taking your super advise


----------



## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

Is it possible to test the kitten for hcm now though?


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

MightyMouse88 said:


> Is it possible to test the kitten for hcm now though?


Yes but there is still the problem of registration and hcm is not the only reason a queen might not be suitable


----------



## Tracey W (Jan 25, 2015)

Thank you for your reply, both parents were tested as are the others, and she did show paperwork on vaccinations and health records of both parents. I really have no problem with the breeder, she had the kitten vaccinated, wormed etc. My daughter chose from this litter purely for the markings and the look of the mother. I have no doubt she is a genuine person. I understand that there are the BYB who are only interested in making money and have no interest in anything else.

I appreciate your comments and thank you for the reply


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

If you are happy with the breeder then do get in touch and see if there is any possibility of registering your girl.
I would still advise against breeding just for the sake of having a single litter - breeding can be wonderful but it can also be heartbreaking. I would hate for you and your cat to go through the sadness of losing kittens or having to have a c.section. Admittedly these things are not common but having had the experience of both last year please understand my concern


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Find out from the breeder what the reason for not registering was.

If it happens to be that one of the parents wernt registered,then as nice as the breeder was its a massive no no in the breeding world.

There is usually a good reason why cats are registered non active (not for breeding),which could be for reasons such as a genetic fault or possibly the cat wasnt up to breed standard.

This kind of breeding for me would sound alarm bells as i say its just not how good breeders work,we dont cut corners and we do it right.We dont let kittens leave until 13 weeks of age. 

But i do recommend you ask this breeder her reasons 1st.

As you have been advised please spay your girl and end this cycle of breeding from unregistered cats.


----------



## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Without papers you will never know whether a stud you would want to breed your Ragdoll with is related to her. I would also imagine that a stud owner willing to accept a girl without papers has $$ in their mind rather than anything else.

Does this breeder know you want to breed? If you were looking for a breeding female, then why not buy on active, a girl with papers? I honestly do not see all that much wrong with wanting to breed "just one litter", however one litter or not, you have to take the same responsibilites as a good breeder would otherwise: taking the time to properly get to know all there is to know about the process of heat, pregnancy and birth, knowing the risks, breeding only from registered, active and healthy cats (with proof of medical tests), neutering, vaccinating, deworming etc the kittens, choosing the kitten owners carefully and then neutering your own cat after the first litter as well. There is a lot involved.


----------



## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Well am sorry to say you have put money in the pocket of a BYB 

Like that others have said unregistered cats shouldn't be bred from for many reasons 

Without the full paperwork your cat is just a moggy, am sorry to say as you cannot prove the parentage of unregistered cats 

Please spay her and let her live as a much loved pet and leave breeding to the breeders that do it properly


----------



## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

Tracey W said:


> Thank you for your reply, both parents were tested as are the others, and she did show paperwork on vaccinations and health records of both parents. I really have no problem with the breeder, she had the kitten vaccinated, wormed etc. My daughter chose from this litter purely for the markings and the look of the mother. I have no doubt she is a genuine person. I understand that there are the BYB who are only interested in making money and have no interest in anything else.
> 
> I appreciate your comments and thank you for the reply


I know it's talked about a lot; register pedigree breeding versus 'back yard breeders' (whose practices I know are sometimes defintley not in the best interests of the mumma cat or her kittens; but I also think there *can* be a middle ground. I don't see it as black and white.

I think if you take certain (very important) steps and do a lot of research into potential problems, as well as going about finding a suitable mate (also tested) I do think it's possible to breed responsibly - registered or not. Yes, there are too many people who breed willy nilly; who just open the back door and let their cat (persian, rag doll, or other breed of cat) out the back door to mate with any old thing, and thn charge a lot of money for the resulting kittens (sold as Persians, rag dolls, or a particular breed), to unsuspecting buyers - BUT it doesn't do sound like you are looking to do that.

(And becasue your cat / any resulting kittens would NOt be able to be registered, it wojldbe unethical to adverise them implying they are 'purebreds'; and you would need to be prepared to charge less for them because of that.)

if your cat has been tested for the genetic issues associated with her breed; if you are prepared to test for any other potential issues, diseases, or genetic defects (wouod cost a lot of money but is important); if you seek to find a suitable mate for her - ie, another cat also tested); and do a lot of research into any other potential problems with her having a litter (ie - her temperament; her size), and weren't at it to make a buck (ie not advertising them as being registered, or officially recognised as 'purebreds'); I really don't see the problem in your plan.

I would take it one step further though, and make sure you *desex all kittens* BEFORE you re-home them. Becasue if every one of those owners also wanted 'just one litter', then you would be simply adding to the over-population of cats (purebred /half bred or not).

In other words, ,to do it all properly, it will end up costing you a lot of money that you WONT be able to re-coup when it comes time to rehome thm.

I would also find a vet who is supportive of you, and it sounds like the breeder you got yr kitten off might be a good source of information / good breeder- although I would do yr research into ths, to be SURE.

Long story short, I personally think it is possible to breed responsibly even if your cat isn't (technically) a 'purebred'. While it could be argued there isn't the same 'market' for 'moggies' - if your cat is even half ragdoll, you will be very easily able to find homes for the kittens

(And perhaps add to your breeding ethics - if you don't find suitable homes, you are prepared to keep any unsold / unhomed kittens)


----------



## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

HeartofClass said:


> Without papers you will never know whether a stud you would want to breed your Ragdoll with is related to her. I would also imagine that a stud owner willing to accept a girl without papers has $$ in their mind rather than anything else.
> 
> Does this breeder know you want to breed? If you were looking for a breeding female, then why not buy on active, a girl with papers? I honestly do not see all that much wrong with wanting to breed "just one litter", however one litter or not, you have to take the same responsibilites as a good breeder would otherwise: taking the time to properly get to know all there is to know about the process of heat, pregnancy and birth, knowing the risks, breeding only from registered, active and healthy cats (with proof of medical tests), neutering, vaccinating, deworming etc the kittens, choosing the kitten owners carefully and then neutering your own cat after the first litter as well. There is a lot involved.


That was a much simpler way of saying eveyrthng I was trying to 

I know some of us will never agree on this - but I do *NOT* think you can lump all 'not registered kittens being sold' as BYBs. it IS possible to breed RESPOSNBILY - yes, with a LOT of work and a LOT of expense (that the owner ends up very out of pocket), but it's not all 'let yur cat out the back door and make a lot of money'.

If the OP was to follow the same health checks and testing and did the research into it all - when the only difference is the kittens aren't registeed, how is it any different to breeders with kittens who are registered?

(And yes I mean all the same tests - it would cost a lot but I bet it's possible to check if the potential mate is related)


----------



## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

Cosmills said:


> Well am sorry to say you have put money in the pocket of a BYB


Ok, playing 'Devils advocate' here - but couldn't the same be said of any breeder who sells kittens unneutured? You can have a contract, but how can it be truly enforced? Person buys a registeed 'not active' kitten from a reputable breeder, and signs the 'desex contract' but then moves / or just simply doesn't get the kitten desexed, and then has a litter from that kitten (as in let it out the door to mate anything and then sell the kittens as 'crosses' - how is that original breeder any different from what the OP here is wanting to do (ie have a litter, and has tested the parents / kittens)???

It has to be more ethical for desexing prior to rehoming? Whether or not the kittens being sold are registeed or not. I think it's 'worse' to sell kittens unneutured even if they are registered, than to rehome 'crosses' that have been desexed prior to going to new homes.

I think 'ethics' goes a long way beyond simply selling a kitten with papers.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MightyMouse88 said:


> That was a much simpler way of saying eveyrthng I was trying to
> 
> I know some of us will never agree on this - but I do *NOT* think you can lump all 'not registered kittens being sold' as BYBs. it IS possible to breed RESPOSNBILY - yes, with a LOT of work and a LOT of expense (that the owner ends up very out of pocket), but it's not all 'let yur cat out the back door and make a lot of money'.
> 
> ...


I definitely feel that they will fall into the byb lable,and heres why.

If someone is going to breed from unregistered cats then for me they are already cutting corners.If there willing to cut one corner whats to stop them cutting another?..testing and such.

The resulting kittens will sell for much less so there is not a chance they will ever cover their costs of breeding even if they were willing to do all relevant testing on their queens like you have said you will make a loss,even ethical breeders find it hard to break even.

The only people who ever make money from breeding are people who cut all corners sell un vaccinated,feed the cats on cheap sh!te,and sell the kittens at 8 weeks old unregistered.

What are they doing for the breed by breeding from unregistered cats? How do they know that they are breeding good breed standard cats when they wont have a clue what the breed standard should be from never showing their cats due to them been unregistered.

There are already so many people breeding enough kittens who are doing it all right.So many good raggy breeders have already given up cause they cant keep up from all the people who try to dabble with breeding them,often under cutting them,see the average kitten buyer sees a cheap kitten and thinks 'OH BARGAIN' then later down the line once the kitten is in and out of the vets and the bills mount up,they realise if they had gone with the good breeder who charged a little more to cover the costs of testing all their breeding stock then they would actually have been better off.

Sorry i am rambling now but no i can never ever agree that breeding from unregistered cats can be ok,you have to set a standard and aim high so will probably  have to agree to disagree on this on im afraid.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MightyMouse88 said:


> Ok, playing 'Devils advocate' here - but couldn't the same be said of any breeder who sells kittens unneutured? You can have a contract, but how can it be truly enforced? Person buys a registeed 'not active' kitten from a reputable breeder, and signs the 'desex contract' but then moves / or just simply doesn't get the kitten desexed, and then has a litter from that kitten (as in let it out the door to mate anything and then sell the kittens as 'crosses' - how is that original breeder any different from what the OP here is wanting to do (ie have a litter, and has tested the parents / kittens)???
> 
> It has to be more ethical for desexing prior to rehoming? Whether or not the kittens being sold are registeed or not. I think it's 'worse' to sell kittens unneutured even if they are registered, than to rehome 'crosses' that have been desexed prior to going to new homes.
> 
> I think 'ethics' goes a long way beyond simply selling a kitten with papers.


The problem with that is many vets are not in with times yet,many will not EN kittens or we would be lapping that option up.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cosmills said:


> Well am sorry to say you have put money in the pocket of a BYB
> 
> Like that others have said unregistered cats shouldn't be bred from for many reasons
> 
> ...


You know the saying there are BREEDERS and then there are breeders.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

MightyMouse88 said:


> Ok, playing 'Devils advocate' here - but couldn't the same be said of any breeder who sells kittens unneutured? You can have a contract, but how can it be truly enforced? Person buys a registeed 'not active' kitten from a reputable breeder, and signs the 'desex contract' but then moves / or just simply doesn't get the kitten desexed, and then has a litter from that kitten (as in let it out the door to mate anything and then sell the kittens as 'crosses' - how is that original breeder any different from what the OP here is wanting to do (ie have a litter, and has tested the parents / kittens)???
> 
> It has to be more ethical for desexing prior to rehoming? Whether or not the kittens being sold are registeed or not. I think it's 'worse' to sell kittens unneutured even if they are registered, than to rehome 'crosses' that have been desexed prior to going to new homes.
> 
> I think 'ethics' goes a long way beyond simply selling a kitten with papers.


I don't think I'm quite following what you're saying. Many breeders do not have a vet who will early neuter kittens nor do they have a practice within reasonable travelling distance who will do so. Are you saying you think that a breeder (who does not early neuter) who sells a kitten and has their trust broken is as bad a byb?


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I don't think I'm quite following what you're saying. Many breeders do not have a vet who will early neuter kittens nor do they have a practice within reasonable travelling distance who will do so. Are you saying you think that a breeder (who does not early neuter) who sells a kitten and has their trust broken is as bad a byb?


Exactly .. its not that we dont want to EN we do absolutely do its a case of vets needing to get in with the times,it will eventually im sure but until then we cant be classed as bad as the next byb imho.


----------



## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> The problem with that is many vets are not in with times yet,many will not EN kittens or we would be lapping that option up.


Then it is up to the breeder to make sure that said kitten is fixed .. I recently got a six month old kitten back because the new owner decline to spay within the set contact .. Yes it took balls to do but no one would get away with not desexing my kittens . I will travel the country to make sure they are

My vet will not EN until 5 months and I don't trust the one that does some 80 miles away ..


----------



## Tracey W (Jan 25, 2015)

WOW I didn't think that asking for advice would lead to this :bored:

I would like to thank you all for your replies, but I would also like to say that I am by no means after 'a quick buck' and I would like to think that I am a responsible animal lover who has always looked after my pets like part of the family, each of them have been insured and were registered with my vet.

As I said earlier my daughter bought me my Ragdoll as a gift as I have always loved the breed, and I was recovering from surgery and this was her way of cheering me up (and it certainly did  ) I had no idea she had contacted the breeder herself and dealt with her even drove down and chose the kitten. Even so I was thrilled she had done this, and I wasn't concerned about papers as she will be my pet and companion, I did ask and was happy with the reply.
If I was buying a Ragdoll myself, yes I would look into breeders, but she was a very unexpected, welcome gift. I would like to point out that not every breeder is trustworthy or ethical and after speaking to this breeder and seeing her adorable cats and living conditions, also their medical/vets cards I have no reason to think she is anything but genuine.
My cat is and always will be a house cat, she has been fully checked and microchipped and was complimented by my vet on her conformation and looks which I don't believe he would say just for the sake of it.

Again thank you for your replies


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Tracey W said:


> WOW I didn't think that asking for advice would lead to this :bored:
> 
> I would like to thank you all for your replies, but I would also like to say that I am by no means after 'a quick buck' and I would like to think that I am a responsible animal lover who has always looked after my pets like part of the family, each of them have been insured and were registered with my vet.
> 
> ...


Can i just say that cause you have seen her vets cards doesnt mean she is from tested stock,these are seperate to your standard health check ups with the vet.And i believe that ragdoll breeders have to routinely test there cats for hcm and i think its costs around £500 a year,but this is not my breed so i could be corrected.

Dont take the comments to heart we are just trying to point you in a right direction.

Unregistered breeding is very much frowned upon in the breeding world you will find.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

MightyMouse88 said:


> Ok, playing 'Devils advocate' here - but couldn't the same be said of any breeder who sells kittens unneutured?


Here and probably NZ, yes breeders who don't EN are frowned upon. The UK is very behind other countries, but there are still breeders over there who have early neutered for years.


----------



## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

^It is the same here. I was surprised to find out on this forum that it is not general practice in the UK. I have been told by numerous breeders from the USA as well as a vet who did training there that it is a standard practice in the USA, with kittens being operated as small as 300g (don't quote me on that last part). Maybe that's why mightymouse88 is saying this, I do remember them being from the US? We have to take into account that this is a UK based forum and early neutering is not yet general practice in most vet practices there.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Also a lot of excuses, not wanting to drive a little further, or find a vet who is up on current procedures.
Think MM is in NZ


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> Also a lot of excuses, not wanting to drive a little further, or find a vet who is up on current procedures.
> Think MM is in NZ


And yes mm is from nz

Not entirely fair. My en vets for example won't accept clients from Edinburgh, about an hours drive.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I for one am not going to put my kittens through for example an hours drive to and a hours drive back from a vet thats willing to EN.Its a massive stress on them as it is for the op alone.

If you are one of those people that would have to travel far and wide then it also means having to spend the day out waiting for vets to give you your kittens back.Its not practical at all.

Im more than willing to EN my kittens but until my local vets or a vets in or around my area get up with the times i wont be EN-ing.

What makes this more frustrating is the fact that my local vets *WILL* EN ferals.

Some people should be less judgemental all of the time and try to realise that cause its common in your area to EN doesnt mean its that easy elsewhere in the world.

Some do manage to find a vet here yes,but i can honestly say that within my breed i dont know of a single breeder who is EN-ing their kittens are we all making excuses?


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I travel over an hour to my chosen vet, doesn't bother the little ones at all. And it doesn't take an entire day to neuter, they're ready to leave an hour or so later then come right home bouncing around.
I know breeders that travel 4 hours from the country to get their kittens done, and again their kittens are not bothered.

If vets will neuter ferals then breeders need to get on them to neuter others.

Seems to be a big BYB issue with BSH in the UK, that alone would make me do whatever it took to ensure none of my kittens ended up in that situation. We've seen a number of threads on here that contracts do not work.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> I travel over an hour to my chosen vet, doesn't bother the little ones at all. And it doesn't take an entire day to neuter, they're ready to leave an hour or so later then come right home bouncing around.
> I know breeders that travel 4 hours from the country to get their kittens done, and again their kittens are not bothered.
> 
> If vets will neuter ferals then breeders need to get on them to neuter others.
> ...


Alot of BSH breeders do want to EN and we are talking with the vets i do think its something that will catch on its just a matter of time.

The usual thing you get here when you call up surrounding vets is ''no,we dont neuter under 6 months of age'' point blank answer.

I did actually manage to speak with a young guy at my vets and he used to work for cats protection something or another and he used to EN the ferals at a very young age,so he was quite confident and happy to help me,they thing was his manager had to ok it and again i was met at a dead end,but what he had said to me was he was happy to EN any kitten over 1kg,all my bubs are that by 9 weeks of age.This year i will keep pushing them.

Again, a 2 hour round trip with the prospect of having to wait around likely for up to 4 hours is not at all practical.(again nor am i willing to put my kittens through that) i am happy enough for now that i choose my kitten buyers with enough care to not have to worry to much about a byb getting their hands on my kittens.Or maybe iv just been lucky upto now.

The contracts might not be worth the paper they are written on,the average kitten buyer are likely unaware of this,i think this is something you can use to your advantage.


----------



## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I thought there was no term practical when it comes do breeding, you do what's best for the kittens no matter what. Honestly I think it is much more stressful for kittens at the actual vet visit rather than the drive, which they often spend sleeping and kittens need to get used to carrier bags & being driven in cars any way, it's part of the socializing process. I have seen how young adults (up to one year) endure neutering and how kittens under three months do, honestly it'such an easy procecdure with the young ones and they are recovered in a second, I would always chose EN for my kittens no matter how impractical for me it'd be.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Another thing that actually really helps believe it or not is fb, keeping in touch with fellow breeders has been a super way of weeding out the byb's.


It proved to be quite successful,and iv seen a few folk been caught out when trying to wrongfully get their hands on a cat for breeding,some folk dont realise how small the breeding world is. Not much goes un noticed put it that way.

You do have to get a bit smart with these people.Google is super useful.I caught a few buyers out last year.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

HeartofClass said:


> I thought there was no term practical when it comes do breeding, you do what's best for the kittens no matter what. Honestly I think it is much more stressful for kittens at the actual vet visit rather than the drive, which they often spend sleeping and kittens need to get used to carrier bags & being driven in cars any way, it's part of the socializing process. I have seen how young adults (up to one year) endure neutering and how kittens under three months do, honestly it'such an easy procecdure with the young ones and they are recovered in a second, I would always chose EN for my kittens no matter how impractical for me it'd be.


Yes your making a fair point.

Still for me i do not like the idea of putting kittens through a long journey after such an op.I personally dont even like having to go to stud due to the stress on the cat.

For me for now i am happy with how i do things and i know my kittens go to good homes.

Things will catch on i am sure.


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

All very helpful but can we not turn the OP's thread into an early neuter debate please?


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

BYBs understand contracts are unenforceable (at least in the UK) and not having papers obviously doesn't stop them.

Coming back to the OP's question:

If she can be registered with the GCCF (which is the main registry in the UK( she should have come with the necessary paperwork. I suspect however that at least one of her parents are not registered, so she can't be. It seems you know the breeder, maybe you could ring her to double-check?

Yes a litter of kittens can be cute, but we are awash with kittens and bringing more moggies (which is what they will be given mum is unregistered) into the world doesn't make sense. Also as the OP is now aware HCM is a problem in Ragdolls, so breeding them is more complicated and expensive than many other breeds.

Best advice is to neuter her ASAP. The longer she is unneutered the greater her risk of breast cancer, and while she is entire pyometra (infection of the uterus) is always a possibility.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> BYBs understand contracts are unenforceable (at least in the UK) and not having papers obviously doesn't stop them.
> 
> Coming back to the OP's question:
> 
> ...


Another thought too,it is highly unlikely that they will find a registered stud,where the owner is willing to accept them into stud,and anyone who will accept will be unregistered studs themselves,now this is not a good idea who knows who they have accepted into stud before hand and if they have any nasties such as Chlamydia,which if your cat caught would likely result in the queen aborting her kittens and such.

Its not as simple as just sticking two cats together theres much more to it than that.

This has already been mentioned but you also wouldnt know who your cat was related to,you could be mating brother to sister for all you know.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

In answer to the OP's question - of course you can register your cat. You can register any cat with the GCCF. She will be registered as 'no breed recognised' just like any other cat without provable, registered parentage.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> In answer to the OP's question - of course you can register your cat. You can register any cat with the GCCF. She will be registered as 'no breed recognised' just like any other cat without provable, registered parentage.


So no point to doing it beyond lining their pockets.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Totally confused as to how registration would help to 'line pockets'. It would do exactly the opposite as it would be paper proof that any kittens are not pedigree Ragdolls and cannot be sold as such.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Surely it's the other way round? If a kitten is a pedigree it's registered as such.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

And if this owner chooses to register their cat it will be registered as no breed recognised as would any kittens from it. How does registering a non ped help in lining pockets?


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The GCCF's pockets.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't think they'll be having a massive Christmas party on the price of a registration


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

They could if all the half-pedigree kittens born every year were registered.


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

I hope the op takes the advice on board. They genuinely seemed to care for their cat.

Shame they were red repped though.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I was astonished at the red rep. Still think the rep part of PF causes more problems than its worth. Its the only forum I use which has 'rep', the rest work perfectly well without it.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Shame they were red repped though.


It is a shame, it's shameful that somebody can't come on this forum and ask a simple question without the hypocritical, holier than thou brigade jumping on them.


----------



## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

we love bsh's said:


> I for one am not going to put my kittens through for example an hours drive to and a hours drive back from a vet thats willing to EN.Its a massive stress on them as it is for the op alone.
> 
> If you are one of those people that would have to travel far and wide then it also means having to spend the day out waiting for vets to give you your kittens back.Its not practical at all.
> 
> ...


the stress of deriving that far and a day away etc - id say that is NOTHING compared to the stress of one of a breeder's kittens ending up in a BYB situation.

just saying.

you - as in any one of us - make decisions all the time as to how far the ethics or morals will top - what is vitally important to you / me / anyone is NOT as important to another person.

you might find it abhorrent the OP wants to consider letting her cat have a litter of kittens; whereas someone else will find it as abhorrent you don't travel to have your cats desexed prior to being rehomed.

I'm not (necessarily) saying you're wrong by the way - just pointing out the obvious - we ALL have DIFFERENT priorities and ALL have DIFFERENT ideas as to wheat is 'best' for our cats/ other cats


----------



## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> And yes mm is from nz
> 
> Not entirely fair. My en vets for example won't accept clients from Edinburgh, about an hours drive.


you must have done your homework because that is not info i shared publicly.

i feel flattered I'm that 'interesting' enough to have someone else google and research such things


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Don't flatter yourself. Someone else worked it out. Its still a mystery to me that you refuse to put it in your profile.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

MightyMouse88 said:


> you must have done your homework because that is not info i shared publicly.
> 
> i feel flattered I'm that 'interesting' enough to have someone else google and research such things


It's in another thread....


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> the stress of deriving that far and a day away etc - id say that is NOTHING compared to the stress of one of a breeder's kittens ending up in a BYB situation.


What exactly is a BYB situation?


----------



## Worzel (Jan 21, 2014)

Why was this new forum member red repped?


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Worzel said:


> Why was this new forum member red repped?


Rep - red or green - is up to any member to give how the wish. Discussing the reason is against forum rules

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


----------



## Worzel (Jan 21, 2014)

Unfair. No wonder people don't post. Too many bullies on here. Nobody stands up to them makes them just as bad.


----------



## MightyMouse88 (Aug 20, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> I was astonished at the red rep. Still think the rep part of PF causes more problems than its worth. Its the only forum I use which has 'rep', the rest work perfectly well without it.


agree - its very high-schoolish and doesn't serve any real purpose.

(and i don't 'refuse' to put my location on my profile - i just haven't put anything on my profile and don't see the need to)


----------



## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

MightyMouse88 said:


> agree - its very high-schoolish and doesn't serve any real purpose.


Didn't go to a High School as such, but there were some older children who took their Prefect status much too far. Deborah Meaden was one of them. Yes, her.... the same one.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

I am new to the world of researching breeds and breeders. I eventual goal is to have one of the tree forest breeds. The more I read and research the more paranoid I become (I exaggerate; I am not being flippant to make the point) about the whole process and wonder to what extent breeders can be trusted. On the subject (under discussion) Registration, this is surely wide open to abuse; there is, as I understand it, no physical inspection of the kittens or the cattery.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Where do you live? If in the UK, once you get the right name for the breed(s) you are interested in, there are probably people here who can point you in the right direction. BTW there is no such thing as a 'tree forest breed'. I don't know where you got that from!


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

Haha! Thank you for spotting my typo;"tree" rather than "three!"
Namely: The wonderful Norwegian, Siberian and, considered of similar type, the Maine Coone. 

I have been researching the breeders that are listed with the various breed clubs but even here I notice that a serious code infringement by a breeder was treated very lightly by the breed club.
Even so, while no guarantee, I feel that club registered breeders are the way to go.


----------



## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

brendan Donegan said:


> Haha! Thank you for spotting my typo;"tree" rather than "three!"
> Namely: The wonderful Norwegian, Siberian and, considered of similar type, the Maine Coone.
> 
> I have been researching the breeders that are listed with the various breed clubs but even here I notice that a serious code infringement by a breeder was treated very lightly by the breed club.
> Even so, while no guarantee, I feel that club registered breeders are the way to go.


Yes, registered breeders are definitely the way to go - and ones that ensure ALL health tests for the breed have been done

However, personal recommendation is definitely the way to go rather than solely relying on websites

There are many on here who have NFC and MC so sure you'll get some suggestions of great breeders


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

I discovered this forum only this morning.

Thank you for that Lilylass; friendly, informative and totally lacking sarcasm and very timely in that the first response to my first post had thinking this is not the forum for me; a bit too catty. 

I notice some references to neutering age in this thread. Surely, intuitively, neutering a kitten to soon would have a negative effect on their development, particularly those large breeds which take three to five years to reach full size. There has been some research in this regard but the jury is still out- it is simply not a profitable area for research funds.

My preference would be to give kitty at least until sexual maturity before neutering. I will not adopt a kitten who has been early neutered. Once I feel confidant in a breeder, and find my kitten, it will be for me to win the breeders confidence regarding a Kitten Contract and my responsibility to organise neutering at the appropriate time as I did with my little dog. I respect the vets and nurses at my local practice all of whom espouse similar views regarding the appropriate age for neutering.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

Typo Warning: for" to" soon please read "too" soon.....


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

brendan Donegan said:


> Haha! Thank you for spotting my typo;"tree" rather than "three!"
> Namely: The wonderful Norwegian, Siberian and, considered of similar type, the Maine Coone.
> 
> I have been researching the breeders that are listed with the various breed clubs but even here I notice that a *serious code infringement* by a breeder was treated very lightly by the breed club.
> Even so, while no guarantee, I feel that club registered breeders are the way to go.


I am intrigued by the term 'serious code infringement.' It is not in common use within the GCCF. What was the offence? It has to be said that a club has no disciplinary powers except to expel members for breaking club rules but that is a very extended process if the member objects. (The club is, however, obliged to suspend any member found guilty of misconduct by the GCCF.)


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

As far as neutering is concerned, your breeder will have the final say. I hope you would not be intending to break any of the conditions of a contract. In any case, neutering before sexual maturity is the best way to prevent behavioural problems which can be lifelong once they start.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

spotty cats said:


> Here and probably NZ, yes breeders who don't EN are frowned upon. The UK is very behind other countries, but there are stil breeders over there who have early neutered for years.


"The UK is behind other countries" because it takes a human approach to EN. Just because something is done or has become custom or is fashionable or up to date does not make it right.
The demand for kittens seems to be great enough for breeders to choose adopters who they trust to fulfill their obligations under the kitten contract.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

QOTN said:


> I am intrigued by the term 'serious code infringement.' It is not in common use within the GCCF. What was the offence? It has to be said that a club has no disciplinary powers except to expel members for breaking club rules but that is a very extended process if the member objects. (The club is, however, obliged to suspend any member found guilty of misconduct by the GCCF.)


Just Google "Poor Barnaby Kitten"

With regard to my intriguing usage "serious code infringement" this clearly diverted attention from the actual point of my post which was that 
even confining ones search to Breed Club breeders is not a 100% guarantee. 
.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

QOTN said:


> As far as neutering is concerned, your breeder will have the final say. I hope you would not be intending to break any of the conditions of a contract. In any case, neutering before sexual maturity is the best way to prevent behavioural problems which can be lifelong once they start.


Thank you QOTN. I may be in error when I refer to the Kitten contract. What I mean is that I will happily contract to have my kitty neutered within a agreed period and will not attempt to


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

brendan Donegan said:


> Typo Warning: for" to" soon please read "too" soon.....


Hi Brendan , welcome to the forum.
There is an edit function for correcting spellings and typos, at the bottom right of the post.
I hope you will stick around , sorry you've found some responses 'catty' , but of course ,you are in the 'cat' section.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

breed from kitty.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

There is an edit function for correcting spellings and typos, at the bottom right of the post.
I hope you will stick around , sorry you've found some responses 'catty' , but of course ,you are in the 'cat' section.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Susie.

I like the look of your menagerie.


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

brendan Donegan said:


> There is an edit function for correcting spellings and typos, at the bottom right of the post.
> I hope you will stick around , sorry you've found some responses 'catty' , but of course ,you are in the 'cat' section.


Thank you Susie.

I like the look of your menagerie.[/QUOTE]


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

SusieRainbow said:


> Thank you Susie.
> 
> I like the look of your menagerie.


[/QUOTE]
It's like a pet 'rest home'!


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

brendan Donegan said:


> Just Google "Poor Barnaby Kitten"
> With regard to my intriguing usage "serious code infringement" this clearly diverted attention from the actual point of my post which was that
> even confining ones search to Breed Club breeders is not a 100% guarantee.
> .


I have now googled 'Poor Barnaby Kitty' and there was no breed club mentioned. There was a report supposedly from a GCCF disciplinary hearing but I can find no record of it. If there was a judgement against the breeder in question, as I said before, a club has to suspend that member.

I agree this is all rather a red herring. It is far better to choose a breeder from recommendations. I should probably not say this but there are plenty of breeders I would not personally recommend even though they belong to our own club. Breeders vary considerably even within the required parameters of the GCCF and this may be fortunate since there have been many prospective owners I refused when I was breeding. These things work two ways you see.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

brendan Donegan said:


> "The UK is behind other countries" because it takes a human approach to EN.


I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Do you think it's cruel to early neuter? From everything I've read it is fine. There is a risk to every operation and I've heard nothing to say that EN is more dangerous than at any other age.
Allowing a kitten to reach sexual maturity before neutering is a risk in itself - there are so many things that can occur such as spraying, aggression, escaping and mating etc.
Genuinely interested why you are so against it?


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

QOTN said:


> I have now googled 'Poor Barnaby Kitty' and there was no breed club mentioned. There was a report supposedly from a GCCF disciplinary hearing but I can find no record of it. If there was a judgement against the breeder in question, as I said before, a club has to suspend that member.
> 
> I agree this is all rather a red herring. It is far better to choose a breeder from recommendations. I should probably not say this but there are plenty of breeders I would not personally recommend even though they belong to our own club. Breeders vary considerably even within the required parameters of the GCCF and this may be fortunate since there have been many prospective owners I refused when I was breeding. These things work two ways you see.


The Club in question is the Siberian Forest Cat Club who continue to list the offending breeder.
I am not sure why you use the word "supposedly" or where the red herring comes in because this all began when you questioned my choice of words when I was expressing the fear that even breed club membership is not a 100% guarantee of breeder integrity. You clearly support that view when you say that there are many breeders within your own club which you would not recommend. Thank you for your frankness in that regard.

Never was caveat emptor more appropriate.


----------



## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

brendan Donegan said:


> I am new to the world of researching breeds and breeders. I eventual goal is to have one of the tree forest breeds. The more I read and research the more paranoid I become (I exaggerate; I am not being flippant to make the point) about the whole process and wonder to what extent breeders can be trusted.


What a strange post on an old thread. I am confused as to your post and subsequent posts - is it a question / advice you are looking for or some other agenda.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

If it is Siberian Forest kittens you are looking for, my friends brother has two. Happy to ask who the breeder was if that would help you. They are gorgeous cats for sure :Cat


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

My kittens are neutered before they leave me, and as per the GCCF guidelines they are at least 13 weeks old when they go.

They have all got over being neutered wonderfully well (both boys & girls), far better than the two breeding girls I have had spayed.

There is very little good research on early neutering, but what there is doesn't find the long-term outcome to be any worse than neutering at the normal age, which is still pre-pubertal. The article points out that in human medicine paediatric patients generally do better than adults for an equivalent operation.

I did google what you suggested, what I found seemed to have nothing to do with early neutering.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

moggie14 said:


> I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Do you think it's cruel to early neuter? From everything I've read it is fine. There is a risk to every operation and I've heard nothing to say that EN is more dangerous than at any other age.
> Allowing a kitten to reach sexual maturity before neutering is a risk in itself - there are so many things that can occur such as spraying, aggression, escaping and mating etc.
> Genuinely interested why you are so against it?


Hi Moggie,

Firstly, somewhere in the EN part of the thread is wrote "human" when I meant "humane"

Thank you for your response. My concern is less for the risks associated with the clinical procedure, but rather for the impact on kitty's development. You are not alone in expressing concern for the perceived problems of unneutered cats, the list seems endless and therefore begs the question how do breeders cope with their screwed up and crazy studs and queens - the questions is both rhetorical and facetious - forgive me but you get point.

But to finally answer your question I can only quote from my own post : "Surely, intuitively, neutering a kitten to soon would have a negative effect on their development, particularly those large breeds which take three to five years to reach full size. There has been some research in this regard but the jury is still out- it is simply not a profitable area for research funds. "

That really sums up why I am against it. Also, and I am not 100% sure, but in photographs breeding/show cats seem to have larger heads than EN pets of the same breed. There is not enough conclusive evidence to support either opinion, so I err on the side of my gut feelings, and I will, if I find a breeder who trusts me to do the right thing, risk the downsides which you describe.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I understand your feelings. However if your kittens are for pet only, it wouldn't really matter if they didn't grow quite as large as the breed ideal? I do think that if you are after a specific pedigree you may be limiting your options of available breeders by ruling out those that EN.
Of course it is your choice entirely! My offer of asking my friend about the breeder of Siberian Forests is open and would love to hear how you get on.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> My kittens are neutered before they leave me, and as per the GCCF guidelines they are at least 13 weeks old when they go.
> 
> They have all got over being neutered wonderfully well (both boys & girls), far better than the two breeding girls I have had spayed.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your views. I just can help feeling that the augments for EN are most forcefully argued by those who have a vested interest. Of course, vested interests are what the world is run on but transparency would be nice. There must be a formula to allow those who wish to neuter later whilst protecting the breeders interests. I would be happy to put couple of thousand pounds in escrow pending proof from my vet that the neutering had been done.

It is about fifteen years since our two Heinz moggies passed. They were kept in until sexual maturity and then neutered. They were very healthy and well balanced and long lived.

By the way, you are quite correct; the Barnaby case had nothing to do with EN and was not mentioned in that context but rather in a post concerning the integrity of breed club listed breeders.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

brendan Donegan said:


> My preference would be to give kitty at least until sexual maturity before neutering. I will not adopt a kitten who has been early neutered. Once I feel confidant in a breeder, and find my kitten, it will be for me to win the breeders confidence regarding a Kitten Contract and my responsibility to organise neutering at the appropriate time


Hmmm -so you'd be happier to risk future mamary cancer in a female you don't intend to breed from in order to wait until sexual maturity even though all available evidence says spaying before that point just about eliminates the risk. What are the benefits of waiting so long which outweigh the risks?


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

[,QUOTE="moggie14, post: 1064741010, member: 1391412"]If it is Siberian Forest kittens you are looking for, my friends brother has two. Happy to ask who the breeder was if that would help you. They are gorgeous cats for sure :Cat[/QUOTE]

Hi Moggie 14
Thank you. I would be delighted to know from which breeder they came and how they turned out.


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

In your research @brendan Donegan have you visited any cat shows? They are a good place to see the type of cat you are looking for - the conformation as well as the breed - and you can chat to breeders about their policies on early neutering. You can talk to owners who aren't breeders and that may help in narrowing down your search for a 'good' breeder. Word of mouth is often the best way.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

brendan Donegan said:


> Also, and I am not 100% sure, but in photographs breeding/show cats seem to have larger heads than EN pets of the same breed.


From any litter there are kittens of varying type, varying 'quality' according to the breed standard. Could it possibly be the case that knowledgeable breeders keep/swap the best for showing and breeding so that's what you see on the bench? Could there there be the tiniest chance that whether a cat is neutered or not has absolutely nothing to do with it and the breeder's eye for the good show cat has?


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

brendan Donegan said:


> Thank you for your views. I just can help feeling that the augments for EN are most forcefully argued by those who have a vested interest. Of course, vested interests are what the world is run on but transparency would be nice.
> <snip>.


What are my vested interests? People who buy my kittens know exactly what they are getting - a kitten that is at least 13 weeks old, that is vaccinated, wormed, neutered, chipped & registered which unless they plan breeding is surely what they want? If anyone talked to me about a kitten for breeding I'd take their case on it's merits, but so far no-one has.

Remember, the long-term outcome of EN is the same as that of any pre-pubertal neutering, and 6 months is still pre-pubertal for most kittens. Allowing a kitten to reach sexual maturity before neutering has it's risks including the one pointed out above, and it's a practical proposition unless all kittens in the house are the same sex.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

_Also, and I am not 100% sure, but in photographs breeding/show cats seem to have larger heads than EN pets of the same breed._

In some breeds entire males gradually develop a large head & jowls, the jowls tend to go away after neutering. But does it matter if a pet has a large or a small head?


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

havoc said:


> Hmmm -so you'd be happier to risk future mamary cancer in a female you don't intend to breed from in order to wait until sexual maturity even though all available evidence says spaying before that point just about eliminates the risk. What are the benefits of waiting so long which outweigh the risks?


Well, I am sensing expert opinion here so perhaps you can quote the stats on the base risk and the increased risk of cancer if EN is not performed.
Then, it might be useful to compare that risk with the risks associated with those diseases which are inherent in many pedigree breeds EN or not.

"All the available evidence" does not support EN. I totally understand the breeders business motivation for EN but let there be transparency and not scare mongering and guilt trips. I quote : "Hmmm -so you'd be happier to risk future mammary cancer in a female you don't intend to breed from in order to wait until sexual maturity"

Anyway, my eventual adoption will be for a boy acquired from an honest breeder of quality who will be confidant (backed up with financial guarantees) that I will do what is right by six months or first spray which ever comes first.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The study I mentioned:

http://cfa.org/Owners/CatCare/SpayNeuter/EarlySpayNeuter.aspx


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sigh... Google will find the answers to your questions about statistics, for example:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1+2120&aid=220


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

It always makes me laugh when I see people worrying about the eventual size of EN kittens. I look at Aelfred and ask myself just how much bigger they want him to be!


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

brendan Donegan said:


> Well, I am sensing expert opinion here


I don't reckon 4+ decades of breeding make me an expert at all. Interested, passionate, informed (hopefully), dedicated - all of those but expert? I have a long way to go before I'd dare to claim such a thing


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

lymorelynn said:


> In your research @brendan Donegan have you visited any cat shows? They are a good place to see the type of cat you are looking for - the conformation as well as the breed - and you can chat to breeders about their policies on early neutering. You can talk to owners who aren't breeders and that may help in narrowing down your search for a 'good' breeder. Word of mouth is often the best way.


Thank you. I have tickets for my first cat show at Leatherhead, Surrey, this weekend. I have read elsewhere that one should avoid engaging the breeders at shows because they have little time to spare and that a business card should suffice. Sounds very reasonable advice. However, if I see any thumb twiddling I will dive in.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

havoc said:


> I don't reckon 4+ decades of breeding make me an expert at all. Interested, passionate, informed (hopefully) - all of those but expert? I have a long way to go before I'd dare to claim such a thing


Ah! Methinks you doth protest too much.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

brendan Donegan said:


> The Club in question is the Siberian Forest Cat Club who continue to list the offending breeder.I am not sure why you use the word "supposedly" or where the red herring comes in because this all began when you questioned my choice of words when I was expressing the fear that even breed club membership is not a 100% guarantee of breeder integrity. You clearly support that view when you say that there are many breeders within your own club which you would not recommend. Thank you for your frankness in that regard. Never was caveat emptor more appropriate.


When I first read your reply I was quite shocked because I always hope I express myself clearly but I see from your subsequent posts that I am not alone and perhaps you are wilfully misunderstanding what we are saying.

I used the word 'supposedly' since I could not find the hearing listed by GCCF nor the outcome. I say this is a red herring since nobody would rely on any breeder listing alone wherever it was posted. Of course breed club membership is no guarantee of anything. I am not sure why you think it would be. It will give you avenues to explore, nothing more than that.

You misunderstood my comment concerning the breeders in my own club. They will all be adhering to the GCCF requirements and you could, should you have been looking for a kitten of that particular breed, have been confident in visiting them to see their set-up. I simply said I would not necessarily list them all as my recommendations. I was trying to point out that people have varying ideas as to minimum requirements, which is lucky, since I am thinking that, from your posts so far, my recommended breeders would not have been able to provide you with one of their precious kittens.

I think you have an odd idea of cat shows if you think breeders and owners will not be happy to talk about their chosen breed and show you their cats. I agree that is by far the best way to become familiar with a breed.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

Jonescat said:


> It always makes me laugh when I see people worrying about the eventual size of EN kittens. I look at Aelfred and ask myself just how much bigger they want him to be!


Well it is encouraging to know that "people" worry and not just me. But I was speaking of head size and I meant that relative to the body -proportions not absolute size of the cat.
Breeders, in their own words, (and I don't doubt it) spend years dedicated to producing those wonderful and beautiful champions. Yet I hear it expressed that the pet owner should not be concerned if kitty deviates from the wonderful standard which lead to us falling for the bread in the first place. I will on lookout at my first show this weekend for an early neutered (not just neutered but EN) champion.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

QOTN said:


> When I first read your reply I was quite shocked because I always hope I express myself clearly but I see from your subsequent posts that I am not alone and perhaps you are wilfully misunderstanding what we are saying.
> 
> I used the word 'supposedly' since I could not find the hearing listed by GCCF nor the outcome. I say this is a red herring since nobody would rely on any breeder listing alone wherever it was posted. Of course breed club membership is no guarantee of anything. I am not sure why you think it would be. It will give you avenues to explore, nothing more than that.
> 
> ...


I am am simply, and without implying any criticism of the breeders, quoting what I have read on the subject and which makes perfect sense to me : "The breeders are working to tight schedules at the shows so look at the cats take a card and follow up with the breeder late.

"........................from your posts so far, my recommended breeders would not have been able to provide you with one of their precious kittens." Why would that be please?


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

brendan Donegan said:


> I totally understand the breeders business motivation for EN


If you really believe you understand it as a business motivation you aren't going to find the breeder you want. No reputable breeder who does EN is going to engage in the sort of negotiation you envisage with a potential pet buyer. It's the sort of thing which will cause instant suspicion and have you fall at the first hurdle. There are kitten farmers who will nod their heads at your theories and sell to you - and you'll take it as proof you're right. Everybody happy then.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

havoc said:


> If you really believe you understand it as a business motivation you aren't going to find the breeder you want. No reputable breeder who does EN is going to engage in the sort of negotiation you envisage with a potential pet buyer. It's the sort of thing which will cause instant suspicion and have you fall at the first hurdle. There are kitten farmers who will nod their heads at your theories and sell to you - and you'll take it as proof you're right. Everybody happy then.


Wow!


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Brendon, I have bred an EN champion who championed at only 10 months old in an alter ring against some of the strongest competition this country has seen in years. He finaled against cats who were not only champions but supreme grand champions, regional winners (meaning they finished in the top 25 cats in Western Europe), international winners (who finished in the top 25 cats in the whole world) and lifetime achievers (who did both) over more than 1 season, i.e, their quality was good enough that they could achieve these high places more than once).


I am planning to be at the show in Leatherhead, and can asure you that despite being an owner, a breeder and a stall holder at that show, I am never averse to talking to members of the public despite my busy schedule. I might take them to the ring with me, or interrupt our conversation a few times to deal with customers or begin prepping the cats for the ring, but never have I refused to talk to anyone. If you do come across a breeder who doesn't want to chat, they're not the type I'd buy off in any case.

Whilst many breeders still do not EN, and many of those are good, do have a care, as many are also less than good.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

brendan Donegan said:


> I am am simply, and without implying any criticism of the breeders, quoting what I have read on the subject and which makes perfect sense to me : "The breeders are working to tight schedules at the shows so look at the cats take a card and follow up with the breeder late.
> "........................from your posts so far, my recommended breeders would not have been able to provide you with one of their precious kittens." Why would that be please?


I see you are going to a show at Leatherhead so that is not a GCCF show. I cannot comment on the shows run by other registries. Perhaps the exhibitors do have a tight schedule. If you waylaid an exhibitor outside a GCCF show venue at 8am or earlier when they had just joined the vetting-in queue, you might have a lukewarm reception. The public is not allowed into the show hall until 12.30 at the earliest but the afternoon should provide plenty of opportunity to talk to exhibitors although it is not a good idea to accost somebody whose precious cat has just been taken up for the Best in Show line-up. They have other things on their mind at that moment. Just be sensitive to timing!

To be perfectly blunt, you do not come across as the sort of person I would have favoured as one of my kitten owners when I was breeding. You seem to think you know more than breeders which is never a good start, you imply the majority are beyond the pale when most are not like the worst and you have unsupportable ideas about neutering. More cats lose their homes because of 'inappropriate' behaviour than any other reason. I cannot imagine why anybody would be even contemplating such a risk. Please bear in mind that many breeders have to endure conditions in their own houses that they would not consider acceptable for their kitten owners.

Edit to note that other registries are apparently very similar to GCCF after all.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

QOTN said:


> I see you are going to a show at Leatherhead so that is not a GCCF show. I cannot comment on the shows run by other registries. Perhaps the exhibitors do have a tight schedule. If you waylaid an exhibitor outside a GCCF show venue at 8am or earlier when they had just joined the vetting-in queue, you might have a lukewarm reception. The public is not allowed into the show hall until 12.30 at the earliest but the afternoon should provide plenty of opportunity to talk to exhibitors although it is not a good idea to accost somebody whose precious cat has just been taken up for the Best in Show line-up. They have other things on their mind at that moment. Just be sensitive to timing!
> 
> To be perfectly blunt, you do not come across as the sort of person I would have favoured as one of my kitten owners when I was breeding. You seem to think you know more than breeders which is never a good start, you imply the majority are beyond the pale when most are not like the worst and you have unsupportable ideas about neutering. More cats lose their homes because of 'inappropriate' behaviour than any other reason. I cannot imagine why anybody would be even contemplating such a risk. Please bear in mind that many breeders have to endure conditions in their own houses that they would not consider acceptable for their kitten owners.
> 
> Edit to note that other registries are apparently very similar to GCCF after all.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

Well. I joined this forum to seek help and assistance through what, based on a great deal of reading and research was beginning to look like a mine field. And now I am accused of being a know all by QOTN. I have been on the receiving end of consternation because I quoted advice from a respected breed expert's book that one should not seek to chat up busy breeders at cat shows - simply take a card. Not my opinion but simply throwing it out there for clarification. 
Anyway, it has been an interesting experience.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

You have painted a scenario you believe you will be able to engineer whereas I have simply stated what I know to be the likely response from any reputable breeder. Anyone suggesting they want to leave neutering until sexual maturity is the biggest red flag a potential buyer can wave at a breeder. I don't go to the trouble of posting it out of malice - it's very helpful advice.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

brendan Donegan said:


> Well it is encouraging to know that "people" worry and not just me. But I was speaking of head size and I meant that relative to the body -proportions not absolute size of the cat.
> Breeders, in their own words, (and I don't doubt it) spend years dedicated to producing those wonderful and beautiful champions. Yet I hear it expressed that the pet owner should not be concerned if kitty deviates from the wonderful standard which lead to us falling for the bread in the first place. I will on lookout at my first show this weekend for an early neutered (not just neutered but EN) champion.


Most kittens DO 'deviate from the wonderful standard' - most kittens simply aren't show quality in one way or another, sometimes in several ways.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

havoc said:


> You have painted a scenario you believe you will be able to engineer whereas I have simply stated what I know to be the likely response from any reputable breeder. Anyone suggesting they want to leave neutering until sexual maturity is the biggest red flag a potential buyer can wave at a breeder. I don't go to the trouble of posting it out of malice - it's very helpful advice.


Thank you but where is the advice bit? You are simply confirming that I will not achieve what my gut tells me is right. I am not trying to "engineer a scenario". My working life and its success hinged so often on my integrity.

If I can't be trusted by a reputable cat breeder to keep my word and not use by boy kitty as a stud but will have him neutered, then Batersea here I come. However, I don't accept your prophecy that my endevours are doomed.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Most kittens DO 'deviate from the wonderful standard' - most kittens simply aren't show quality in one way or another, sometimes in several ways.


Understood and thank you. Apparently, the breeders' expertise allow them to identify who's who and what's what. Will they explain the shortcoming of the kittens to their clients?


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

You'll like as not find a breeder who doesn't EN. You won't find one who does prepared to leave a boy entire for you because of the reasons you put forward. Wanting a boy left entire will make reputable breeders very wary of you. You believe you have good reason for wanting what you want. So far on this forum there's over a century of breeding experience is telling you otherwise - but you're still right


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

havoc said:


> You'll like as not find a breeder who doesn't EN. You won't find one who does prepared to leave a boy entire for you because of the reasons you put forward. Wanting a boy left entire will make reputable breeders very wary of you. You believe you have good reason for wanting what you want. So far on this forum there's over a century of breeding experience is telling you otherwise - but you're still right


This forum really bring out the nice side in people. Instead of the sarcasm - "but you're still right [/QUOTE]" why not use your share of the hundred years of experience to explain why "Wanting a boy left entire will make reputable breeders very wary of you." And what, in this context does wary mean? Suspicious but open to reason and vetting (unfortunate choice of words


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

I should correct the above and apologise to those who are nice on this forum. You know who you are.


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

brendan Donegan said:


> . Will they explain the shortcoming of the kittens to their clients?


In my experience yes they will. A lot depends on the relationship you have built with them though and I wouldn't expect them to do it until they were happy that they understood what you were looking for.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

Jonescat said:


> In my experience yes they will. A lot depends on the relationship you have built with them though and I wouldn't expect them to do it until they were happy that they understood what you were looking for.


Thank you Jones cat.
That makes total sense. I need to choose a couple of breeders to visit and, depending upon how it goes, hopefully build a relationship leading to an eventual adoption. If you or your friends are able to recommend Maine Coon and/Siberian Forest breeders, I would be much obliged.

I like your pictures, particularly the avatar for obvious reasons.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

brendan Donegan said:


> I should correct the above and apologise to those who are nice on this forum. You know who you are.


Perhaps you think we are not 'nice' because we hold the welfare of all cats and particularly our own bred cats to be the top priority.

As far as 'shortcomings' are concerned, please bear in mind that a Standard of Points is simply a description of the 'perfect' cat of a particular breed. As you know, perfection does not exist so *all* cats will fall short of this ideal probably in several areas. This in no way makes them unfit to be a loved pet. No reputable breeder will *guarantee* any of their cats will win at shows since so many things can change as a cat matures. A breeder can only estimate a kitten's potential.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Your conviction that it's a 'business' decision to neuter makes it almost impossible to explain. There is a certain amount of protectionism but not in the way you think. That pedigree certificate holds my name, my reputation, my years of striving for excellence, not only in type but in temperament and health. My name, my reputation gets carried forward by anyone who breeds on from my lines, it's there on the pedigrees of future litters bred by others. There's no way I would risk that to a stranger who quotes a bit of internet 'research' at me. 

What it boils down to is that as breeders we've heard it all before. If we EN it's because we believe it does no harm, a decision we'll have reached from attending seminars, reading papers written by experts in feline medicine, keeping in touch with our kitten buyers and watching our kittens grow. Therefore, in our minds, there can't be a good and honest reason why a buyer would be against it. That may not be wrapped up all nice but it is honest. It is what will go through the mind of any breeder you approach.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

QOTN said:


> Perhaps you think we are not 'nice' because we hold the welfare of all cats and particularly our own bred cats to be the top priority.
> 
> As far as 'shortcomings' are concerned, please bear in mind that a Standard of Points is simply a description of the 'perfect' cat of a particular breed. As you know, perfection does not exist so *all* cats will fall short of this ideal probably in several areas. This in no way makes them unfit to be a loved pet. No reputable breeder will *guarantee* any of their cats will win at shows since so many things can change as a cat matures. A breeder can only estimate a kitten's potential.


[/QUOTE]Perhaps you think we are not 'nice' because we hold the welfare of all cats and particularly our own bred cats to be the top priority. How could you possibly think that I might think that?


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

havoc said:


> Your conviction that it's a 'business' decision to neuter makes it almost impossible to explain. There is a certain amount of protectionism but not in the way you think. That pedigree certificate holds my name, my reputation, my years of striving for excellence, not only in type but in temperament and health. My name, my reputation gets carried forward by anyone who breeds on from my lines, it's there on the pedigrees of future litters bred by others. There's no way I would risk that to a stranger who quotes a bit of internet 'research' at me.
> 
> What it boils down to is that as breeders we've heard it all before. If we EN it's because we believe it does no harm, a decision we'll have reached from attending seminars, reading papers written by experts in feline medicine, keeping in touch with our kitten buyers and watching our kittens grow. Therefore, in our minds, there can't be a good and honest reason why a buyer would be against it. That may not be wrapped up all nice but it is honest. It is what will go through the mind of any breeder you approach.


I think I have already expressed my understanding and sympathy for your fears around an neutered cat falling into the wrong crooked hands. What b****** belief is that you cannot envisage a situation where you could satisfy your self of the bona fides of the buyer. Could it be that as you have a queue for your EN kittens, it is hardly worth going to the trouble of checking out the likes of me. Now that is a credible and understandable reason and nothing to be ashamed of.

Great name by the way. May I paraphrase " Cry havoc and let slip the cats of war "


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

brendan Donegan said:


> Could it be that as you have a queue for your EN kittens


Actually I did - I stopped breeding last year so no longer applicable though the kitten enquiries continue and I pass them on to other breeders. I could pick and choose my buyers, maybe I should say I could pick and choose easily as any breeder I know would turn down anyone they weren't happy about. They'd rather hold onto a kitten and wait for the right home. Don't think there's a one feels the slightest bit ashamed in taking such care about placements.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

havoc said:


> Actually I did - I stopped breeding last year so no longer applicable though the kitten enquiries continue and I pass them on to other breeders. I could pick and choose my buyers, maybe I should say I could pick and choose easily as any breeder I know would turn down anyone they weren't happy about. They'd rather hold onto a kitten and wait for the right home. Don't think there's a one feels the slightest bit ashamed in taking such care about placements.[/QUOT


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

brendan Donegan said:


> What buggers belief is that you cannot envisage a situation where you could satisfy your self of the bona fides of the buyer


It only b******* your belief because you believe there's a good reason not to neuter before maturity. By definition any breeder who does EN doesn't share your belief so your motives are automatically suspect. There are all sorts of things buyers will ask of breeders - one example is asking for kittens not to be vaccinated because the enquirer wants to use homeopathic nosodes instead. Such a request usually arises because they've read something against vaccination on the internet. I firmly believe the health of my kittens was better protected by conventional vaccination - there's no way I'd change my protocol however much a prospective buyer believed they knew better


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

And neither should you feel ashamed; it is up to you how you and your fellow breeders run your operations.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

havoc said:


> It only buggers your belief because you believe there's a good reason not to neuter before maturity. By definition any breeder who does EN doesn't share your belief so your motives are automatically suspect. There are all sorts of things buyers will ask of breeders - one example is asking for kittens not to be vaccinated because the enquirer wants to use homeopathic nosodes instead. Such a request usually arises because they've read something against vaccination on the internet. I firmly believe the health of my kittens was better protected by conventional vaccination - there's no way I'd change my protocol however much a prospective buyer believed they knew better


 The only issue that, as I explained clearly, which buggers belief is that it is apparently impossible to check the bona fides of a potential adopter who would like to wait a little while before neutering. Please do not misquote the sense of what I am say and the spirit in which it is said.

You have expressed your views strongly (I understand that totally and don't need a lecture on "Why I expressed my views strongly") You have a hectoring style and are dismissive of the views of others. I have yet to commence my visits to breeders butam optimistic that I will meet more kindly, rational and reasonable folk. I would not like to believe that you are representative of breeders at large.

I will not be responding to anymore of your posts so you have the floor Herr H.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

This is all becoming a bit unreal for me. Brendan Donegan seems to think he can be confrontational at the least and downright rude in some of these posts but feels justified in criticising others' responses which have all tried to demonstrate points of view in a reasonable manner and we are castigated for not being 'nice' or kind or rational or reasonable. Dear oh dear. We never see ourselves as others see us Brendan. I don't swear in print so I will just say it beggars belief!


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

QOTN said:


> This is all becoming a bit unreal for me. Brendan Donegan seems to think he can be confrontational at the least and downright rude in some of these posts but feels justified in criticising others' responses which have all tried to demonstrate points of view in a reasonable manner and we are castigated for not being 'nice' or kind or rational or reasonable. Dear oh dear. We never see ourselves as others see us Brendan. I don't swear in print so I will just say it beggars belief!


'Beggars belief 'is the correct term I believe, I'm not keen on the other version myself !


----------



## Bilai (Jun 3, 2015)

SusieRainbow said:


> 'Beggars belief 'is the correct term I believe, I'm not keen on the other version myself !


I've been thinking this for several posts!


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I did think of using quotation marks or even (sic). The one thing I didn't feel I should do is misquote the original as the author would probably object


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I've edited the offending words.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

QOTN said:


> Brendan Donegan seems to think he can be confrontational at the least


It is decidedly odd to come on forum loaded with experienced breeders and make such comments with so little background knowledge.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

SusieRainbow said:


> 'Beggars belief 'is the correct term I believe, I'm not keen on the other version myself !


I quite agree; I was wrong to use this word. I apologise to those I have offended by its use.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

brendan Donegan said:


> The only issue that, as I explained clearly, which buggers belief is that it is apparently impossible to check the bona fides of a potential adopter who would like to wait a little while before neutering.
> <snip>.


So what do you suggest?


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> So what do you suggest?


Thank you for taking an interest in this discussion OrientalSlave. However, I think it has run its course. Thank you to all those who took the time to share their opinions on the matter. I will, if I may, leave it at that.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@brendan Donegan - I am sorry I am coming very late to this thread, and perhaps too late for my comments to be useful. But I must say I am puzzled by your comment that 'all the available evidence does not support EN'

My perspective in commenting is that of someone working in Cat Rescue. Many Rescues are now moving towards EN before homing their kittens. I have read a number of expert reports on EN including the excellent report from International Cat Care, which was presented at their recent conference in Birmingham in Oct 2016.

None of the reports I have read have indicated "the jury is out" on the use of EN. What the reports say, is that _*so far *(_my emphasis) there is no evidence that EN does any harm to the kitten or affects their long term development. The studies that have been done evidently show the effects of EN are no different long term, to the effects of neutering at the point of (or just prior to) sexual maturity.

I would be very suprised if a highly reputable cat welfare organisation such as International Cat Care would approve or promote the practice of EN if there was any evidence that it could be harmful. Or even the suspicion that it might adversely affect the kitten's development. If you (Brendan Donegan) have any such evidence to quote I would be pleased to read it.

Once Rescues all start to adopt EN as a matter of policy it wouuld be unlikely they will make a special exception for a potential adopter who wants to adopt an unneutered kitten no matter what
reason the potential adopter gives.

All our potential adopters are carefully vetted and we have always had signed contracts with adopters agreeing to neuter their kittens by a specfied date. In spite of that adopters continue to let us down by not keeping to the agreement.

Reasons for failure to comply include the following : the owner was ill, someone in the family was ill, the owner was on away on holiday, the kitten was indoor only but someone left the door open and kitty got out and became pregnant, or simply the owner was busy and forgot to get the kitten neutered. These may be valid reasons in the eyes of the adopter for failure to comply, but the fact remains that for whatever reason the agreement was broken, and as far as Rescues are concerned it is simply not a state of affairs that is acceptable.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Unfortunately the breeder of my friends brothers kittens has retired. However this breeder of Siberians was suggested as an alternative but I do not endorse them as they are unknown to me. Not sure if it's any help at all 
http://www.siberian-kittens.co.uk/siberian/about.html


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

moggie14 said:


> Unfortunately the breeder of my friends brothers kittens has retired. However this breeder of Siberians was suggested as an alternative but I do not endorse them as they are unknown to me. Not sure if it's any help at all
> http://www.siberian-kittens.co.uk/siberian/about.html


Thank you very much Moggie 14.


----------



## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

brendan Donegan said:


> Thank you. I have tickets for my first cat show at Leatherhead, Surrey, this weekend. I have read elsewhere that one should avoid engaging the breeders at shows because they have little time to spare and that a business card should suffice. Sounds very reasonable advice. However, if I see any thumb twiddling I will dive in.


Hi, I have my Norwegian Forest Cat neuter at London Cats, come and say hi. I will have a Skye paw patrol blanket on our pen. Skye and my other Forest cat were both early neutered. TICA shows can be a bit chaotic but breeders do chat, just expect us to dash calling cat coming through if our numbers are called for the ring.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

Excellent. I look forward to meeting you and Skye at the show.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

lillytheunicorn said:


> Hi, I have my Norwegian Forest Cat neuter at London Cats, come and say hi. I will have a Skye paw patrol blanket on our pen. Skye and my other Forest cat were both early neutered. TICA shows can be a bit chaotic but breeders do chat, just expect us to dash calling cat coming through if our numbers are called for the ring.


I could not have enjoyed the show more. It was a pleasure to meet you, Ali &Gethin and of course the cats. I was so pleasantly surprised to find the breeders and show cat owners so open to chat and, like you and Ali, ready to introduce their cats. One soon got the sense of when was a good time to approach and when to stand back. All in all, a splendid day.


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

brendan Donegan said:


> Thank you very much Moggie 14.





moggie14 said:


> Unfortunately the breeder of my friends brothers kittens has retired. However this breeder of Siberians was suggested as an alternative but I do not endorse them as they are unknown to me. Not sure if it's any help at all
> http://www.siberian-kittens.co.uk/siberian/about.html


Hi I attended my first cat show today, marvelous, and I met the lady who runs the cattery of which you gave me the website address . So, thanks again.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

brendan Donegan said:


> Hi I attended my first cat show today, marvelous, and I met the lady who runs the cattery of which you gave me the website address . So, thanks again.


Ah that's great news! Please let us know how you get on! x


----------



## brendan Donegan (Jan 2, 2017)

moggie14 said:


> Ah that's great news! Please let us know how you get on! x


Thank you, I will.


----------



## Furfection (Jun 11, 2018)

QOTN said:


> I have now googled 'Poor Barnaby Kitty' and there was no breed club mentioned. There was a report supposedly from a GCCF disciplinary hearing but I can find no record of it. If there was a judgement against the breeder in question, as I said before, a club has to suspend that member.
> 
> I agree this is all rather a red herring. It is far better to choose a breeder from recommendations. I should probably not say this but there are plenty of breeders I would not personally recommend even though they belong to our own club. Breeders vary considerably even within the required parameters of the GCCF and this may be fortunate since there have been many prospective owners I refused when I was breeding. These things work two ways you see.


Has anybody managed to find any information on this beyond what is publicly accessible via Google?
Anybody please post here, or pm in the strictest of confidence.
I've kind of got a feel for what the situation was, but actually finding "chapter and verse" has been harder than I imagined.
Thanks all.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The previous reply is 2 years old


----------



## Furfection (Jun 11, 2018)

I know. Another poster brought the topic up today with me.
So I was wondering who might be able to help.

Also there are few Siberian breeders in Britain, especially the colourpoint variant.
Quite a number of "mystery breeders" ie potential BYBs. So its all the more interesting to get info on the higher profile registered breeders. Especially by PM if anyone doesn't wish to post publicly.


----------

