# Malamute Puppy Problems



## Rach1802 (Apr 8, 2013)

Hi there,

Sorry if this is a topic already under discussion but I can't find it anywhere.

We already have two rabbits and an approximately 3 yr old rottie cross (possibly flat coat) male - Max. He can be fear aggressive and is hugely protective of me towards other dogs. He has regular behaviour therapy sessions and plays well with the therapist's dogs. He was attacked in the past so can be nervous of other dogs as they always want to 'go for him'. He never instigates, only retaliates and even then not all the time.

We decided he would be happier if we got another dog as it would help him socialise, build up his confidence and most importantly give him company to play with.

Despite my reservations about having a puppy, my partner fell in love with a malamute puppy bitch (approx. 13 weeks old) from the same rescue we got Max from. She had been dumped at a vets at about 10 weeks. After a lot of research into the breed we decided that she might be a good match for Max. The rescue asked us to come and look at her with him and things went well over several meets so we brought her home on Easter Monday.

Since then, things have been chaos. I expected normal puppy problems, jealousy and rabbit-chasing. What I did not expect was constant howling/whining/barking when she is in the crate, bloody minded wilfulness, determined food stealing, snapping at visitors and painful biting. I have had a puppy before as well as other rescue dogs before and I have never seen anything like her! We are trying to be 'firm but fair' with her (the Caesar dominance thing is probably not a good idea here) but she just doesn't listen. 

Additionally, Max has become possessive of his toys (growls when she tries to take them - which I tell her off for anyway) and seems to thing she is his new plaything. He has never been nasty towards her and can be endlessly patient when she is rolling around nipping EVERYTHING but he does try to bounce all 42kg of himself at her.

I'd just like some advice about how they can learn to get along, how we can deal with her constant noise and some reassurance that everything will be ok! I don't want to have to return her as she's already been through so much and I think she can be happy with us.

Thanks!


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

Hi there,

Sorry if this is a topic already under discussion but I can't find it anywhere.

We already have two rabbits and an approximately 3 yr old rottie cross (possibly flat coat) male - Max. He can be fear aggressive and is hugely protective of me towards other dogs. He has regular behaviour therapy sessions and plays well with the therapist's dogs. He was attacked in the past so can be nervous of other dogs as they always want to 'go for him'. He never instigates, only retaliates and even then not all the time.

We decided he would be happier if we got another dog as it would help him socialise, build up his confidence and most importantly give him company to play with.

*Im sorry but if you already have a dog who is very nervous of other dogs why would you think that getting another would help? You should really have sorted this problem first before thinking of getting another. *

Despite my reservations about having a puppy, my partner fell in love with a malamute puppy bitch (approx. 13 weeks old) from the same rescue we got Max from. She had been dumped at a vets at about 10 weeks. After a lot of research into the breed we decided that she might be a good match for Max. The rescue asked us to come and look at her with him and things went well over several meets so we brought her home on Easter Monday.

Since then, things have been chaos. I expected normal puppy problems, jealousy and rabbit-chasing. What I did not expect was constant howling/whining/barking when she is in the crate, bloody minded wilfulness, determined food stealing, snapping at visitors and painful biting. I have had a puppy before as well as other rescue dogs before and I have never seen anything like her! We are trying to be 'firm but fair' with her (the Caesar dominance thing is probably not a good idea here) but she just doesn't listen.

*Malamutes are not the easiest breed to have, and are not an average pet dog. The behaviours you are talking about are very normal of this breed. Have you introduced the crate properly or just put her in? The behaviours she is displaying is trying to tell you that she is not happy one bit! Do you provide mental stimulation ? What do you do when she does these behaviours? You need to get hold of a behaviourist asap IMO as this behaviour will escalate if not dealt with. *

Additionally, Max has become possessive of his toys (growls when she tries to take them - which I tell her off for anyway) and seems to thing she is his new plaything. He has never been nasty towards her and can be endlessly patient when she is rolling around nipping EVERYTHING but he does try to bounce all 42kg of himself at her.

*Max is fearful of other dogs, so of course hes going to be possesive of his toys because hes worried shes going to take them! Again this needs to be worked on or things could turn nasty. *

I'd just like some advice about how they can learn to get along, how we can deal with her constant noise and some reassurance that everything will be ok! I don't want to have to return her as she's already been through so much and I think she can be happy with us.

Thanks!

*I really think getting another dog was a bad idea, especially this breed. Getting another dog when you knew that it could potentially cause Max alot of stress and anxiety seems very silly. I think you need to research into Mals alot more and maybe speak to people who have them. I could give you alot more info but i do think you need practical help ASAP or this will turn nasty. *


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## Rach1802 (Apr 8, 2013)

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying about Max, or perhaps I am not describing it accurately. He loves other dogs and always wants to play. He is very bouncy and does lots of play bows. They, however, very rarely feel the same. He is what many describe as a 'victim dog' - other dogs are aggressive towards him. Most of the time he ignores them but he sometimes reacts, especially if it is just me walking him. He has ongoing therapy and socialisation for this, as I have said.

We thought he would be happy with another dog because it gives him a canine companion, which he obviously seems to want. He is not anxious or stressed by her, just too enthusiastic and boisterous. He chooses to lie next to her and often instigates play. He also puts up with her nipping him, which she does a lot.

We didn't just put her in, we introduced it with food, treats, etc and short stays in there. We mainly use it so Max doesn't play too rough with her and she has a safe place to sleep and call her own.

I am not sure there is an 'average' breed of dog, to be honest and they are all driven by individual needs.

We have a therapy visit scheduled for next week, I just wanted to gather as much information and advice as I could in the meantime.

Please do not assume I am ignorant - I have had dogs for many years, our family always has, my dad was a dog handler, I do my research and will always, always work hard to make my animals happy and safe.


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## Rach1802 (Apr 8, 2013)

Oops, I also forgot to add that Max lived with other dogs before we had him and was fine, and that our behaviourist said that she thought he would be happier with a canine companion.

Also, we play with Lupa regularly and we're training her too, so she should be pretty stimulated. Unfortunately she seems to be teething which doesn't help as she just wants to chew sticks or clothing, not learn how to sit or lie down!

When she is noisy in the crate we ignore it until it gets unbearable (we have neighbours to think about), then shake a can with pennies if saying 'no' or 'quiet' doesn't work. I'm not keen on the penny can, which is an idea we got from looking online at people with similar problems. I think it's a bit harsh but she doesn't respond to 'no' and I don't want to spray her with water.

Anyway, thanks for your opinion.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

it sounds as tho she & Max are doing fine; he's tolerant, despite her mouthy pup-behavior.
She'll lose her puppy-license for allowable misbehavior starting around 12 to 16-WO, & he will begin
to expect nicer manners from her, but that's a good thing: other dogs will not be indefinitely forgiving.

for her human interactions, i'd see DUNBAR for his advice on teaching a soft mouth; take advantage of 
her natural ages-R-stages behavior, & teach her that humans are fragile, easily-injured creatures.
That means U ALLOW mouth contact, but over time REDUCE the pressure to let the puppy learn to be 
consciously delicate when her teeth touch ppl.

Raising a Puppy | Dog Star Daily

i'd get the FREE download of the dual book, *Before...* & *After U Get Ur Puppy* - 
it's loaded with safe, practical advice, particularly teaching bite-inhibition.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

the other thing i'd teach her is to play TUG enthusiastically, but with a default to drop the tuggee 
as soon as Ur arm goes deadweight; all that takes is persistence, don't TELL her anything, just hang 
the entire wt of Ur arm off her jaw, & look away; be bored & boring.  She'll drop it, THEN U happily 
& very *promptly* offer the toy to continue the game! :thumbsup: she learns "drop" means the game goes on; 
don't use any verbal at all, just go deadwt, wait her out, she lets it fall, OFFER the toy to play some more.

Once she is promptly dropping the tuggee virtually before U go entirely deadwt, almost reading Ur mind, 
then U can label the action for her, saying "drop" *as she lets go - * not before. Again, let the label 
become solidly attached before U attempt to ever use it as a cue! --- if she fails to respond to the cue
alone [verbal], help her out & go deadwt again, only adding the label once she is 'dropping' the tug-toy, 
ideally -as- she is actually letting go of it.

practice some more with 'drop' as a label only, for at least 2 or 3 tug-sessions over a day or 3 days, 
then try the cue again & see if she's grasped the concept; verbal is much harder for dogs than visual, 
postural cues, environmental signals, etc. Support her till she gets the idea.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Malamutes do need very early socialisation and training from day one, they also wont do long boring repetitive training sessions, but are usually happy to work for rewards. Its best to do 2/3 10/15 minute training sessions a day mixed with a bit of play to break it up. praising and rewarding when they get it right. Try adversive methods on them and they will likely balk at it even more and dig their heels in. At this age as young as she is they will see what they can get away with. I wouldnt use a rattle can either as it can make a lot of them noise phobic. If they dont like something they will let you know they dont and being a primitive independant breed, Ive found the best method is to convince them that being co-operative is more rewarding then balking. They do need firm but fair training. 

I personally think you need to go back to basics again with the crate, Just leaving it open and getting her running in and out chasing toys and treats at first. Then hide smelly treats in the corners and under the edges of the bed to encourage her to investigate it more again not shutting it yet. Next step usually if to see if you can get them to settle in there with door open, giving her something like a stuffed kong, or safe type chew. If you can get her to settle then just walk up no fuss and push the door too, but return with equally no fuss, before she gets stressed of vocal and open it again. Then build the time up a bit at a time with it just pushed too, and then when shes settled in there, finally bolt it shut. I would keep Kongs and special chews and give them for going and being in the crate only. Best time to get her to go in there is after exercise when they have gotten rid of excess energy are tired and more likely to settle. Its best when you start to crate train them to have the crate where you spend most of your time too at first, as they often tend to be happier in there inititally when you are close by, once they have learned to relax and settle in there then you can move it.

Malamutes can be mouthy and nip, they also tend to play really rough, especially with their own or other breeds who play rough. I would let her play but if it starts to escalate and it gets too wild, then call a halt to it separate them and get them to calm down before reintroducing them again.

The more you acknowledge the snapping and nipping the worse she is going to be, saying no, down repeatedly, pushing them away, looking at them making eye contact are all forms of acknowledgement and rewarding it, If she snaps at visitors, or nips you, then you need to give her nothing in the way of any rewards. I would work on getting her to sit calmly and waiting for anything she wants from you or that you give her, so she has to work for it.
By working on all the basic commands and rewarding her when she does as asked, so that you can use them for overal control should help.

I would also seriously think about getting her to a training class as well, for socialisation and early training with distractions ans other dogs, so that you can work on focus on you and commands.

As regards to food, toys long lasting treats, attention, etc, I would closely supervise and not leave them laying about as they can be triggers to start problems at least initially. She is just a pup at the moment and being a female and a pup your older boy, mmay be making a lot of allowances, Mals or a lot of them can be feisty especially with their own sex, but its not unheard of for some to be feisty with opposite sexes too, and if they do take umbridge then they dont usually take any prisoners.

You really do need to get on top of the problems and start training asap, as they age otherwise if they are not trained and things nipped in the bud by adolsecence then you can have a real problem. The training needs to be ongoing too, as often the worst age especially if you havent laid foundations is towards end of the first year and through the second year. By the start of year three if the works put in and they are more mature then they start to get easier.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Hi and welcome to the mad world of Mals. 

I don't know where you researched the breed but in doing so you should have read that they are food stealers, not one man dogs unless you're carrying a sandwich, stubborn, difficult to train, destructive when bored, moult like you never thought possible and although not barkers their howling and 'wooing can be deafening. The biting and nipping is probably just normal puppy behaviour but because they are big pups it becomes more concerning. Flynn was a terrible 'mouther' and still 'holding' my arm at six months or so when id be harnessing him. I tried many things but what eventually worked was popping my thumb in his mouth as he tried to bite and momentarily holding his tongue down, just two/three seconds. Not harshly and not saying a word i just did it and let go. He really didn't like that and as he went to 'mouth' me he watched my hand, immediately letting go if i put a hand to his mouth. It worked within two weeks and completely ended this behaviour, which is not desirable in the breed as they are not known to be biters. Your girl is young and will grow out of it but my boy was huge at six months and i couldn't let him get away with taking my wrist in his mouth because even though it wasn't aggression as such it did hurt at times.

As Mals can be dog anti social it seems she wasn't exactly a good choice as a companion for a nervous dog and even at her young age I would think she's pretty big too, possibly making your dog even more nervous. 

In your research there should also have been mention of how difficult they can be in the first two/three years of their lives - a reason so many end up in rescue because people fall in love with the look then realise what a handful they've taken on. Such a shame as they are wonderful dogs once you understand what makes them tick. 

Great advice already given and for some peace of mind you may like to join the Facebook groups - Alaskan Malamute Owners and Malamute Matters. Not only are there loads of people on there who've found exactly what you have after taking on a Mal but there are some wonderful dogs on those groups which will let you see how well behaved they really are - as long as you raise them properly. Lots of funny stories and pics that will help keep you sane in these early months when you realise you're not alone and need a sense of humour with this breed as well as commitment. 

Your girl has had a tough time anyway just by being in rescue at such a young age and she'll need lots of time and patience to settle her in. Many Mals on the groups live with other breeds of dogs and as you can see mine do too so its workable with time. Crating her and confining her is probably stressful due to her being in kennels and I have never crated mine, when pups I used a baby gate on the kitchen so as I didn't need to close the door and make them feel shut off from the rest of the house. I still have baby gates up for when I go out to separate them and also because my bitch is aggressive to my other dogs - some just are but it's not the norm as you'd see if you joined the groups. 

They are a bit of a trial at first but once settled they can be lovely dogs. Personally I wouldn't want to be without one, which is common once you've owned one. 'Once bitten, forever smitten' as the saying goes. 
Good luck.


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## Rach1802 (Apr 8, 2013)

Thanks so much for your advice everyone, I really appreciate it.

Malmum, I researched everywhere I could - mostly online and in books, although we do know a husky/mal cross that we meet regularly and he is lovely. He plays with other dogs of the same sex and goes off-lead. Oddly, he is not fussed about people at all.

Honestly, I never wanted any type of sled dog because of how much exercise they need and the idea that they would chase the rabbits. I wasn't sure we could give one the life it deserved as I think they are generally happier working and that's not something they can do with us. However, my partner did very much want one and fell in love with Lupa instantly, and was thrilled when the kennel phoned us about her. We discussed in depth what she would need from us and whether she would make Max happy. At no point did we think she was going to be easy but we are willing to put in the work. We have also agreed that it would be unfair to keep her unless he agrees to run with her regularly when she is older. From what I understand she can't really be off-lead so running seems the best option to burn off her energy and keep her entertained. We have a lot of places to go round us so it shouldn't be too repetitive.

Unfortunately things are complicated by the fact that she was behind in her vaccinations due to being abandoned, so she's only just had her second one today at 14 weeks and can't go out for another 10 days. She is missing out on vital socialisation and has started growling at strangers and other dogs - as noticed today in the vets. I think puppy classes are a must for this little one. I'm pretty much ticking off the days til the 19th.

Also, Max has managed to rip one of his claws down to the vein, so encouraging them to play more is out at the moment. Typical! I do need to bite the bullet and let them get on with it though. She weighs 14.3kg already, I think they will be ok together but I need to be braver.

I was aware that they can be a bit rubbish with other dogs but, perhaps naively, I thought having her from a puppy would help with that. She does seem very fond of Max already and gets grumpy if they are separated, such as when he goes out for walks. He is also very sweet with her, even if he does squash her a bit when they play.

I was aware of the 2-3 yr old 'calm down' stage and that was one of the reasons I thought she would make a good companion for Max. His other 'half' is almost definitely flat coated retriever and he'll probably never grow up. He is still a big puppy himself really.

Sled Dog Hotel, I will go back to the beginning with the crate as suggested, just because she is such a clever little monkey and so food-obsessed (which I expected, just not on her level!). We're not used to that so we need to puppy-proof a little more before we let her 'loose'. She is super clever, which again I expected, but Max has been so calm and well-behaved indoors that we just need time to re-adjust.

leashedForLife, I thought it was a bad idea to encourage tug games with strong-willed dogs? She does seem to love them but we stopped because we thought it encouraged her to resist all the time and goodness knows we don't need that now.

Thanks so much for your help again. Hopefully I will be able to update you with positive progress!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Stick with her Rach and eventually you'll have a lovely dog I'm sure. I've asked on those groups about joining and all you have to do is request to be accepted. They really are lovely to see how well behaved and sweet Mals can actually be.

In fairness to Mals, you have one of the laziest sled dogs around - as I type at 1.00pm mine haven't even woken up yet, lol and won't until I start getting leads out - I'm late today but they never bug. They are a very laid back breed after they mature, mine get one walk each of 1 1/2 hours roughly because I take three dogs out separately and it's a mission fitting all the walks in. I have no help in walking so just do the best I can and they are quite happy and contented. They will get evening walks soon because the days are longer as I don't go out after dark now due to attempted dog thefts in the area. 

In summer it's early morning walks and late evening due to heat as they don't do well in hot weather and can overheat quickly, they like nothing more than lying next to a trickling hose on the patio's on warm summer days - if we ever have any, lol. 

Since she's your first Mal be careful with small objects and socks etc. Obstruction is the number one killer of Mals and they swallow things you wouldn't think possible. Listen to me - ha ha - mine have swallowed a squeaky cow, ball, cat toy, sock and a bandage  when youngsters and I'm very very lucky I didn't lose one as they all vomited the objects up. I know of two Mals who died after swallowing a sock, surgery couldn't save them so be very careful and no toys smaller than tennis ball size, that includes any that can be squashed and slip down their throat.

Another thing with Mals is bloat, they are a breed prone to it so no exercise for a couple of hours before of after feeding. Here's a link for you to read:
Bloat in Dogs

Sorry for the lecture but it's very important you know certain things to keep your girl safe. I wasn't even aware mine had swallowed anything till they brought it up - that's how people lose them, because they don't see them swallow things and by the time they get to the operating theatre it can be too late. 

ETA - Must see pics you know, lol! ;-)


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## Rach1802 (Apr 8, 2013)

If I could work out how to post pics I would! I think I've attached some but I'm not sure.

Please don't apologise for lecturing - I really do welcome any advice. Just not condemnation or judgement, lol!

I'm very aware of bloat because of Max's make up - I believe both rotties and flat coats are prone to it. We feed either well before or well after exercise and I make sure Lupa is 'resting' in her crate after so she knows that she should be calm after meals. She eats so fast I'm especially paranoid. Adding kibble has slowed her down a bit (she is/was on Nature Diet pate stuff from the kennels) but it may call for an anti-gulp bowl.

I've also noticed the object stealing - so far I've retrieved a curtain hook, a bandage roll, a sock and several shoes. Items she's gotten the better of me with (to my knowledge!) are kitchen roll and tissues. They're paper fibre so should digest easily but I am keeping a close eye on her for any discomfort or retching. I'm a bit of an anti-clutter freak so this is my perfect excuse to demand that everything is tidy and clutter-free! I've also rejected part of a puppy toy pack because it was a ball about golf-ball sized. How silly to even include it!

Max is SO lazy too - I was brought up to get up and take the dogs out before anything else but if I try that at 6 he is seriously unimpressed. He prefers my partner's home working pattern of get up, potter about doing emails, drink coffee, potter, eat breakfast, walk dog at 9ish, work. He goes out for about 90 mins every day split into 2 walks and longer at weekends.

We will be very careful in the summer. I don't think any of our household - me, my partner, the bunnies or Max - like the heat so she won't be on her own in the garden with a hose! 

I have asked to join both groups and posted in Malamute Matters already. Thanks for the tip, they have really cheered me up no end. I am so grateful to you all for your help and I'm safe in the knowledge that lots of people have been through the same thing!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rach1802 said:


> ... she was behind in her vax [being abandoned], so she's only just had her 2nd... today at 14-wks
> &* can't go out for another 10 days. She is missing out on vital socialisation & has started
> growling at strangers and other dogs - as noticed today in the vets.*
> ...
> ...


Yikes.

i'd have her out & about EVERY DAY, she's not an infant in danger of dying from various microbes;
she's a big, husky girl with vanishingly-tiny risk of getting sick, & *massive risk* of becoming an asocial bugger! 

please see the sticky on puppy socialization risks & read DVM Anderson's open letter re vax, pups, 
& the absolute need to socialize intensively; she's already MISSED her primary-socialization period,
which ended at 3-MO / 12-WO, so she's actually in B-mod now, not standard pup-socialization. 

any risk of viruses, etc, is incredibly small - a bout of diarrhea is very unlikely to kill her, 
while a major antipathy to other dogs [besides Max] & nonfamily humans could cause enormous problems 
for her entire lifespan. I'd get her out & meeting everyone i could, as happily as possible, immediately!

JMO, but i think putting it off for another 10-days is excessive caution, & potentially disastrous. 
Pups of 5-WO are at extreme risk of dying if they get Parvo; 75% will die, even with excellent vet-care.
HOWEVER, by 8-WO, decent home-nursing will get over 75% of Parvo-infected pups thru it.

She's well past the age where Parvo is a seriously lethal threat... she needs to get out & mingle,
& in her case, it's pretty urgent, i think.



Rach1802 said:


> leashedForLife,
> I thought it was a bad idea to encourage tug games with strong-willed dogs?
> She does seem to love them but we stopped 'cuz we thought it encouraged her to resist
> all the time, & goodness knows we don't need that now.


by teaching her a default to drop the tuggee, U have control of the game - & U're actually teaching both
self-control, & co-operation. :yesnod: Pretty cool, eh?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Watch her with fabric kitchen rolls and tissues, Certain kitchen rolls like the bounty/now called plenty doesnt digest and comes out as it went in, if they eat enough of it it can cause blockages. A lot of Malamutes including mine when younger would eat, socks, gloves fabric, kitchen roll if he could, and ended up being rushed to the vet a few times for an injection to make him vomit them up before they left the stomach. My Mal/sibe mix would rip them up if she could but had the sense not to eat them unlike him. Its deffinately a Mal thing or quite common in a lot of them, I even heard of an adult who swallowed a whole tea towel in one go.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Love the photos - she's gorgeous, & Max looks like a sweet hunk. :001_wub:


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## labealtaine (Apr 1, 2013)

Hello.

This is my first post, but wow - I joined this forum for advice on pretty much the same issues. 

I got a male mal pup at 13 wks. His previous owners hadn't vaccinated him either, and he's behind on his socialisation too.

I'm finding the mouthing tough to deal with, but what seems to have helped more than anything else is the time he's spent with another (very 'alpha') dog. Every time they have a few minutes to chase around, Bruce (my mal) comes out of it better-behaved - as though he gets a crash course in humility.

I was at my wit's end with the nipping, but I've started basically copying what the other dog does - ignoring him up to a point and only responding when he gets too bad (the same trick that Malmum mentioned). Hopefully over time I can soften his mouth, and phase it out altogether.

He's good with his crate - he learned in about two days that once he sees me cooking if he goes and sits in it like a good boy he might get a treat - but he does still have an issue if I'm not right there in front of him. He seems OK if I go out (no complaints from the neighbours - and they would complain!) but if he knows I'm in the house (in the shower, for instance) and he can't get to me he raises hell.

Obviously I'm not taking a dog into the shower - I love him to bits but there are limits - so I'd be very interested to hear any advice on how to deal with this habit. 

Good luck with your girl!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Ha ha labealtaine, you have a boy and they are right mummy's boys from the two I have here. In fact that's what I love about them, Flynn sleeps right next to my bed every night, legs up the side of it, while Kali is happy to sleep away from me. I moved my bed round and forgot to move 'his rug' next to it - had to get up in the night because he couldn't settle, once he had his rug next to my bed he slept like a babe. 
Think the only thing you can do is give him something that will occupy him while you're in the shower, a stuffed kong would be ideal, maybe make it his dinner at the same time. Pop it once stuffed in the freezer. If it's frozen with wet food or raw (whatever you feed) it will last him longer and he will eventually like you having a shower - very food orientated these Mals as you probably know. 

So glad you have joined MM Rach, I haven't been on fb yet today but will pop over now and see if I can find you  you'll know me by the howling Moot avatar and the constant waffling about Flynn, lol.

Love the pics, she is beautiful and Max is a dream, the look on his face speaks volumes, lol! 

Found you, lol! ;-)


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

labealtaine said:


> I got a male Mal @ 13-WO. His previous owners hadn't vaxed him... & he's behind on his socialisation, too.


Don't fret over the vax; he's past the danger of dying from Parvo, & k9-distemper is also 
less-dangerous once they're out of the nest. *i'd focus on socialization, as he's PAST his critical age
already - he's in secondary-socialization, as primary ends @ 12-wks.*

Mals aren't social-butterflies, & males are worse than Fs for dog-dog issues.
Lots of free play with highly dog-social dogs of both sexes & all ages will help enormously - they need 
to be puppy-tolerant, but not indulge him or ignore flagrant rudeness.

If he were mine, i'd also consider desex @ 6-MO, to have him neutered before the testosterone-flood 
at 7 to 9-MO, when he will secrete *5 to 7 times* the level of testosterone found in the blood 
of an intact-M over 18-MO! That peak magnifies every M-hormone driven undesirable behavior, of which 
there are plenty.   Anything he practices as behavior will be learned, which means desex 
AFTER he rehearses posturing at other Ms, hard-stares, up on his toes with his tail jacked-up, etc, 
won't remove the learned behaviors - they can be reduced with more B-mod, but they've been learnt.


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## Rach1802 (Apr 8, 2013)

Thanks, I chose the most flattering pictures I could find, lol! Max is very handsome and so sweet (other than his reactive issues) and he is SUCH a mummy's boy. I'm hoping Lupa will be a daddy's boy so they don't get so jealous when attention is doled out. So, all the time... 

I really want to socialise her as much as I can but I'm being one of those over-protective mums I normally hate! I would never forgive myself if something happened. Both the vet and kennels said no touching the floor until 10 days from now but I don't want her to end up aggressive. Aargh! I'm also not sure any puppy classes will accept her if she's only just had vaccies and I'd really like to start her socialising with babies to start with as she's probably scared of grown up dogs. The dog she growled at in the vets was a Dachshund .

Labealtaine, Lupa is the same with the crate - if we've put her in because her and Max were getting rough or she needs to rest and I go out of sight then she goes mad. I think when I go out of the house she howls for a while but she's quiet by the time I get in. Thankfully the neighbours think she's adorable. Little do they know...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rach1802 said:


> I really want to socialise her as much as I can but I'm being one of those over-protective mums
> I normally hate! I'd never forgive myself if something happened. Both the vet and kennels said no touching
> the floor until 10 days from now, but I don't want her to end up aggressive. Aargh!
> 
> ...


it's up to U - however, U might print out the open-letter from DVM Anderson found here 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...pups-dogs-vs-risk-contagion-cost-benefit.html

& share it with Ur vet - sadly, Dr Anderson recently died, but he was literally willing to discuss the issue
with other vets who had concerns, as he was so convinced it was crucial for a dog's proper development.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Rach1802 said:


> I really want to socialise her as much as I can but I'm being one of those over-protective mums I normally hate! I would never forgive myself if something happened.


Be careful - be very careful  I was EXACTLY the same with Flynn as a pup, it only took two Airedale's to have a pop at him and I started avoiding dogs a bit. That combined with his two hip replacements which put a hold to his socialisation didn't help. So now I have a 63kgs dog who is dog reactive and a complete handful if he wants to be.

If you're worried about her socialising around dogs you don't know, take her to group training classes. I took Flynn last year and was amazed that he's not actually dog aggressive but reacts through fear - which unfortunately I have passed on to him.  He could walk past a group of 18 dogs and not react - but then I didn't either, which makes all the difference.

You may find some owners on Malamute Matters who will walk with you, unfortunately there aren't any round here.


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## Rach1802 (Apr 8, 2013)

Thank you, I will give it a really good read. It's difficult to make decisions like this when you only want the best for them. I'm also looking into classes and will see if they'll let her in. 

Thanks again everyone for your help, we're already making progress and we're so much happier.


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## labealtaine (Apr 1, 2013)

It's so good to know I'm not the only one!

He does love his Kong, but gets the biscuits out in about a minute flat. I'll try him with the frozen one.

The training class I was going to take him to won't take them without the vaccination cert, but the trainer offers a private visit for pups that aren't 'allowed out' yet - usually they're younger than this of course, but as it's 1:1 she can tailor it to our requirements. Maybe you could find something like this to get Lupa's training underway before they'll let her into classes?

I'm relieved to hear people saying that getting him out and about probably isn't too risky. His original owners had been taking him out so he's accustomed to getting two daily walks - the thought of taking a boisterous pup, already nearly the size of a Labrador, and denying him his walks was NOT one I relished.

Now, if I could just get housetraining licked I'd feel like I was getting somewhere!


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## labealtaine (Apr 1, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> This is exactly what I want to happen. Playing with the farm dog (a GSD/Collie cross, who is a beautifully behaved dog but takes NO rubbish from him) really makes such a huge difference. In ten minutes you can literally see him going from cocky pup to submissive. That dog is one of the few who'll be bigger than him for a good while yet, too so he's a valuable resource!
> 
> Re: neutering, I'm glad you said this - my vet surgery neuter at 9 months by default 'unless there's a reason to do it earlier' but it had occurred to me that it might be better to halt the adolescent rush before it began. I'll mention it to them when I take him in for his next jab.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Housetraining varies with all of them, even if you do it the same way. Marty took ages and still had accidents at six months, Kali wasn't as bad and Flynn was one of my pups who we started training from two and a half weeks old. As soon as they finished on mums nips we'd take them and place them on a pad and say 'busy' they all learned really quickly to use their pads, so Flynn was never a problem. Thankfully! 

Kali hated 'toileting' her pups - can't say I blame her, we used to have to do it with damp cotton wool balls, lol!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

labealtaine said:


> He does love his Kong, but gets the biscuits out in about a minute flat.
> I'll try him with the frozen one.


Does he eat kibble? If so, stuffing is easy - 
Put his measured dry-meal in a zip-top bag, add 1/3 that volume of WATER, zip it & pop it in the frig.
Let it stand to absorb the water; it will soften, but the kibble will hold its shape.

Then add 1/4 the volume in tidbits: 
grated [low-fat, low-salt] cheese, grated carrot, sweet-potato bits, canned or pouch tuna, mackerel, etc.
Mix, stuff, & freeze [or weld].

If he eats canned or fresh-frig premade foods, same idea: mix in added attractions, 
stuff & freeze [or weld with low-fat grated Mozz].

Cork the stuffed Kong with a vegie-plug if U like; a carrot, a peeled Broccoli stem...


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I'm not a fan of neutering labealtaine despite all mine being done due to a multi dog household but would never have it done before maturity - in a Mal around two years old. I had Flynn done at 16months and he got even more dog reactive. Also there is concern in many fields about interfering with growth plates, remember that gonads contain hormones for many things and not just sexual. Testosterone is a confidence booster and although people think its an aggressive hormone taking it away, especially too soon, can lead to nervousness and insecurity. 

I have had many dogs in over thirty years, all entire until the ones I have now and I have never had a humper, scent marker, aggressive or nervous dog - no problem with dog aggression either. Many on here have entire males who live together in perfect harmony so its not a neutering issue, its just the individual dog as all are different. 

Of my six I have one with hypothyroidism and one with Cushings disease which is said to be more prevalent in neutered dogs, I honestly had never heard of these diseases before and though it could be co incidence I'm not sure it is. ALL of my boys are dog reactive and I often wonder if when you take the sexual interest out of a dog they then become less tolerant towards others because they have nothing to 'gain' from being friendly. My boys are not all Mals and I don't walk two of them so it can't be me who's having an effect on them. Three of the boys can be nervous of silly things now and then, even such things as high winds - that's where the lack of confidence comes in, where testosterone may have been beneficial. 

I would allow maturity and bone development before neutering and see if it was really necessary to have it done. All show dogs are entire and you don't see them reacting to dogs or nervous in the ring, nor do they scent mark and try to hump everything in sight. My own personal opinion is neutering at present is in vogue due to the rise in rescue dogs but your dog won't run off and mate with the neighbours dog no more than it will roam - if you look after it properly. Rescues are full because people intentionally breed dogs and breed them far too much, not because of dogs who are entire and in good owners hands. My previous dogs never mated - ever - and the only reason I had a litter with this lot was because I'd left them in someone's care who failed to tell me they'd had an encounter, a slip mating that he thought wouldn't take as he believed they had to tie and he'd caught them in time. So at seven weeks gestation I found out Kali was pregnant but NONE of my pups are in rescue and all owners remain in touch. 

A knee jerk reaction from me was to neuter all and I've regretted it ever since because I feel I've ruined my dogs, however coincidental it may be. Weight control is an issue and with Mals they gain weight fast and are known to need less food than many other breeds their size, Kali became more aggressive towards my other dogs and two have lifelong illnesses. Of course it may not be neutering that's to blame but as I never had these issues with past dogs I wish I'd never had it done and wouldn't do it in the future, as there's really no need not with males anyway.

I know many people with Mals and hardly any are neutered yet they are not throwing out litters left right and centre. If you really do want to neuter at least let him grow properly first, these hormones are important and thats why people are given replacement therapy if they have to have surgery - they are not just for reproduction. Once done there's no turning back but it can always be done later in life.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i've said this before, & no doubt i'll say it many times over - as a trainer, i find desex to be a simple, 
safe, effective procedure to reduce dog / human conflicts over behavior.

Literally until i joined PF-uk & had been here for a year or more, I NEVER HEARD ANYONE claim that 
desex ruins dogs' joints, trashes their skeletal proportions, destroys male dogs' temperaments by 
turning them into cringing Nancy-boys, & causes cancer, acne, & the heartbreak of psoriasis... 
among other things.  I thought it was ludicrous then, the first time i heard it, & i still do. 

i've been training other ppl's dogs since i was 18-YO, have over 30-years of experience, & have yet to see 
any of these horror-story predictions come true - Even when we desexed semi-feral dogs, THEY DIDN'T 
become 'even more frightened' - they still needed B-mod, but they were no worse than before, & they did 
get better, become adoptable, & were placed in pet-homes [not as project-pets in a trainer's home].

So my experience is quite different from MalMum's - i've had intact dogs [M & F], i've had desexed Ms & Fs,
i've worked with dogs of both sexes intact or neutered, *including* pediatric desex [before puberty] -
when shelters or rescues desex pups & kittens before they are allowed to be adopted by families, & desex 
may be done as early as 7-WO in VA in order to allow an adoption... & they were fine. Such young animals
literally stay with their dam & sibs as a unit until the litter is 49-DO [in VA] or 56-DO [elsewhere], then 
as each pup or kit has a valid, approved adoption-applicant, they're desexed & placed with their new owners.

A pubertal desex was already standard in the 1960s, so it's hardly radical or new practice; where are the 
millions upon millions of dogs with terrible problems due to desex? In New England, desex rates are close 
to 90% & the shelters are 'importing' pups & kittens from overflowing shelters in the South & West - 
mostly rural, jammed with pups & kittens from intact, often free-roaming pets.  Yet now i'm in 
New England, i'm not seeing dogs who are ridiculously tall out of proportion to their size, have any more 
joint-issues than dogs in the southeast where desex is less than 50%, & i'm not seeing Ms who cringe, 
bolt when they hear thunder, panic when a truck rolls by, & so on.

It's weird that i've never heard this claim stateside, that desex causes M-dogs to become total wimps;
i *have* heard the claim that desex causes various terrible health-issues for Ms, but only from breeders,
& only when they were loudly protesting mandatory-desex ordinances, meant to reduce euthanasias
at local shelters.

IME thus far - neither is true. Besides, WHY are F-dogs safe from the complete nervous-Nellie effect 
when they're spayed, & why are F-dogs not ludicrously tall & willowy, full of joint problems, etc, post-spay?...
no-one can seem to tell me why Ms are victims, & Fs are immune. 


Malmum said:


> If you really do want to neuter at least let him grow properly first, these hormones are important
> & that's why people are given replacement therapy if they [are desexed by surgery] -
> they are not just for reproduction.


actually, the reasons that humans get hormone-replacement vary wildly - 
for women who are post-menopausal, HRT is now pretty rare; it has too doggone many side-FX.
It used to be common *during* menopause to prevent or stop the symptoms: hot flashes, interrupted 
sleep, racing-heart events, & such transient but sometimes miserable effects, but MDs have largely 
stopped HRT for ordinary menopause, as the health-risks were too great to justify it.

For WOMEN under-50 who have ovariohysterectomies, HRT keeps their 2ndary sex characters: breasts,
body-hair pattern, F-pitched voice, etc. Once they reach 45 to 48-YO, they taper off the dosage - 
which wasn't all that big to begin with.

MEN get hormone-replacement or any of the various erectile-dysfunction drugs for any of a hundred 
or more reasons, the most-common: he's aging & doesn't want his libido to wane. Men tie much of their 
own self-image into being "ready & randy", "bad boys", "potent" & so on.
There's also the post-divorce older man who wants to attract & hold a younger trophy-wife, 
the older worker who wants to look & act younger to keep his job... lots of variations.

Dogs [& their owners] simply don't have those rationalizations. 
If a male-owner is especially reluctant to desex his seriously-problematic M-dog, i'll suggest that he
buy his dog Neuticles & keep the "look" without actual testes. :laugh: So far, none have installed the fakes.


Malmum said:


> Once done there's no turning back but [*desex*] *can always be done later in life.*


yes - but learned testosterone-driven behaviors aren't magically erased, when the M-dog is desexed 
'later in life' - if he's 2-YO & has been posturing at other M-dogs since he was 6-MO, getting him neutered 
isn't going to change his behavior; he's been doing it for 18-mos, after all.


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## Rach1802 (Apr 8, 2013)

I think I'll side-step the desex issue before I get on my high horse but I will say that Lupa will be spayed once she's had her first season. Mostly, if any accidents were to happen I know I'd never be able to give away puppies and I'd end up being a crazy dog lady.

Labealtaine - I know what you mean about the toilet training! We're getting on quite well but there are still daily accidents on the doormat (the opposite door to the one she goes out of) and my partner is getting a bit frustrated. He works from home so he has to deal with most of it. I think a lot of it is that he insists on getting dressed, putting shoes on, etc before taking her out whereas I'll just run outside in my pants and bare feet if I think she really has to go.

Maybe I already am the crazy dog lady...


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

From what I gather neutering is not a fix for behavioural problems at all. I was advised by a behaviourist to get Flynn neutered at 16 months due to his dog reactiveness - it has made no difference whatsoever - unfortunately - and he wasn't posturing at male dogs then but he does now! Behaviours cannot always be put down to hormones, there are genetics and upbringing to take into consideration too. Nature and nurture in other words.

As for health issues, I don't make the claims it's scientific and medical people who do.

Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay/Neuter in Dogs

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf

Plus a study of Golden Retrievers completed in the US - based on factual findings and not fiction.

PLOS ONE: Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers

Whilst I have read on all of the Cushings disease websites that the disease is more prevalent in neutered dogs and I am now reading Hypothyroidism is too. I wonder then if any of my other dogs will have what Britches and Marty have!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay/Neuter in Dogs


Just to take *one* example of her list of supposed "negative health-FX" - 
_increased risk of recessed vulva, vag. dermatitis, 
& vaginitis, especially for F-dogs spayed before puberty -_

to refresh the reader's mind, pre-puberty includes *pediatric desex* from 7-WO [in VA] to approx 16-WO / 4-MO;
*pubertal desex*, the traditional 6-MO period, includes approx 20-WO/ 5-MO thru 30-WO / 7.5-MO.

Australian shelters did a highly-specific retrospective of pediatric desex, *looking* for precisely 
these issues, & did not find any increase in risk. The stats simply don't support the allegation.
The resulting paper was read at the Aus. annual vet-nursing national conference, a few years ago;
i posted a link & quoted the paper extensively in a past thread on PF-uk.

i could reply to each of the other items on the list, but shan't bother. 
________________________________

the link below is to Zink's much-referenced paper on early-S/N -
which BTW isn't *pubertal AKA 6-MO* - it's the shelter- or rescue-version, where pups are desexed 
before placement, sometime between 7 to 8-wks & 4-MO.


Malmum said:


> http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf


i've already posted Howe's highly-detailed rebuttal, which goes point by point over Zink's paper:



> _Rebuttal to "Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete"
> Lisa M. Howe, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS_
> 
> [excerpt, as always, read the entire article]
> ...


LINK to the downloadable doc: http://www.sheltermedicine.com/documents/Zink rebuttal.doc

______________________________________



Malmum said:


> *Emphasis added - *
> 
> Plus a study of Golden Retrievers completed in the US - *based on factual findings and not fiction.*
> 
> PLOS ONE: Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers


are U then claiming that the Australian annual veterinary-nursing conference faked their data?

or that Howe has altered the statistics or data from the referenced citations?

or just that *i'm lying* about the number of serious health-issues i've personally seen that resulted 
from desex BEFORE 2-YO, over the past 30-odd years? 
[which number would be, to reiterate, Zero - in my personal-pets, relatives' pets, clients' dogs, 
neighbors' dogs, casual passerby i chat with on the street, at adoption events, _____ .]


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## Rach1802 (Apr 8, 2013)

Any more help you guys might be able to offer with regards to the biting would be greatly appreciated. Ignoring her doesn't work (she starts biting Max instead), firmly saying no doesn't work, shouting no doesn't work and depressing her tongue or manipulating the bite itself in any way doesn't work - she just clamps down. We try our best to ignore her, do a bit of simple obedience with both of them then put her in 'timeout' in the crate for a few minutes, but as soon as she's out she starts biting again.

We put it down to 'normal' puppy biting (though we've never had a puppy that bites at all before) but now she seems to be really spiteful about it. If her and Max are both getting a fuss, she bites him. If we tell her 'no' for any reason, she bites us. Today my partner told her to stop chasing the rabbits and she didn't listen at all, despite having done so before, and was running just out of reach so he couldn't get her. Max ended up pinning her so my partner could get her (no pain, just a paw holding her) and when he came over she bit him hard enough to draw blood. Max saw and went mad, pinning her again. Again, not hurting her, just trying to tell her not to bite us. She constantly snarled and snapped at him and bit my partner several more times, which Max did not like at all. My partner had to separate them about 5 times. He then did a bit of obedience like siting, etc and then put her in timeout in her crate. Where she howled and cried. 

She is just not listening to anything we tell her. I know we haven't had her long (2 weeks today) but I just would have expected a little bit of progress by now. We're getting frustrated and both our tempers are starting to fray, especially with each other.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rach1802 said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> Any more help [re] the biting would be greatly appreciated.
> Ignoring her doesn't work (she starts biting Max instead),
> ...


remind me - *who recommended ANY of those emphasized items*, on this thread? 

Dogs don't speak English or any other human-language; NO doesn't mean sh*t, shouted or spoken.

Grabbing her mouth is a huge no-no; she will learn to hate human-hands, & is likely to BITE THE VET
or vet-tech or groomer or neighbor, or anybody else whose hand comes close to her head or neck. 

Did U download the 2 FREE books on DogStar Daily website?
Free downloads | Dog Star Daily
if not, why not?

_'Before U Get Ur Puppy'_ & _'After U Get Ur Puppy'_ are free, have great, *safe* info, 
& a huge load of how to teach a soft mouth - no asinine suggestions to clamp the muzzle closed, 
grab the dog's tongue, or any other bassackwards B-S.

i'd suggest U download & read it - cover to cover. Ya can't beat free - & it's trustworthy. :thumbsup:


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## Rach1802 (Apr 8, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> remind me - *who recommended ANY of those emphasized items*, on this thread?
> 
> Forgive me - I didn't realise I was only allowed to gather my information from this thread...  These methods have all been recommended at various point in the COMPREHENSIVE research I have undertaken. We have also tried the 'ouch' approach recommended by Dunbar. Guess what? Didn't work - hence the other options.
> 
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rach1802 said:


> Forgive me - I didn't realise I was only allowed to gather my information from this thread...


who said U can't get info elsewhere? Not i - however, U do have to bear in mind which sources.

if U get advice from the neighbor 2-doors down, or a pet-shop employee, or a relative, it may be good, 
or it might be worthless - or worse yet, damaging. U have to parse good from bad - holding the dog's 
muzzle or tongue is especially bad advice. Lots of frustrated pups bite HARDER when they wrench 
their muzzle free, or snap & snatch their head back like striking snakes if they fear their tongue might
be painfully grabbed & held.

Tongues are very sensitive - try holding Ur own between thumb & forefinger, tight-enuf that U can't 
get it free - how does it feel? Not nice, i'd say. [Clean hands, of course.  ]


Rach1802 said:


> These methods [were] recommended at various points in the COMPREHENSIVE research I've undertaken.


there will be ppl who recommend that U knee the dog in the chest, tread on the dog's toes, 
grab their forefeet & squeeze them till the dog yelps, & other painful punishment to stop 
"jumping up" --- does that make them good options?


Rach1802 said:


> *'No' should mean something to ALL dogs* - primarily for their safety.


*No* is very vague & generalized, which makes it difficult for dogs to learn; dogs are not good 
at generalizations, they're context-specific, & NO is used for Don't jump, Don't bark, Don't Don't Don't.

teaching a dog OFF is much easier; it's a specific action, can be used to mean paws off anything, 
& is much easier to generalize, as it has a specific context: "don't touch that".


Rach1802 said:


> She [jumps] up to hot electric hobs & I'm not taking the time to *gently explain to her*
> why that is not a good idea, or *bribe her away with a treat*.


why would i suggest or expect that U lecture her on any subject? Since dogs don't speak human,
it would be utterly incomprehensible to the dog. I do talk to dogs just to talk, to help relax them, 
to visit or share an emotion, but i don't expect to convey info - just feeling.

BRIBING the dog with a treat? Never.
Here's a training scenario: a cup of tidbits on the stove, i'm cooking something savory on the 
back burner [where the dog can't reach, but can smell it], & the dog, as expected, jumps up.
TOSS a tidbit, say "off" as the dog instantly decamps to pursue the treat; lather, rinse, repeat... 
easy, the dog gets it, the label is quickly converted to a cue.
What's not to like?


Rach1802 said:


> I'm reading it now... it's hard to find time for 150 pages when you've got a puppy to care for )


if U read only the parts on teaching a soft mouth, it's far-fewer pages. 
pages 79 to 100 cover bite-inhibition - 21 pages, including illustrations.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

KikoPup AKA Emily Larlham is a very safe source - she won't tell U to grab, pinch, poke, pin, 
roll, fold, spindle or accordion-pleat Ur dog.  She's a good teacher, too, & has 3 dog-helpers:
a Chi, a BC, & a wire-coated terrierrrist-X.

Dog Training Videos: How to train your puppy not to bite - YouTube

Capturing Calmness- how to train calmness in dogs- dog training - YouTube

Capturing Calmness 2- clicker dog training - YouTube


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