# Disagreement with vet over feeding



## teepee1972 (Sep 9, 2015)

Hey all

I recently changed my elderly dogs main feed from this

http://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-reviews/0206/vets-kitchen-senior

to this

http://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-reviews/0981/platinum-adult-iberico-and-greens

she loves it and it is much easier on her teeth.

However i went to the vets with her today and mentioned she has some arthritis, aside from anti inflammatories he wanted to put her on a prescription diet'...

Now i always trust the experts, but ive been looking at the ingredients and....wow, lots of corn, 'by products' soybean etc, it doesnt sound very good stuff?

I am unsure what to do, do you use prescription diets? and am i missing something?

thanks.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

teepee1972 said:


> Hey all
> 
> I recently changed my elderly dogs main feed from this
> 
> ...


Not all vets have nutritional expertise and some might be influenced by the sales talk and information provided by food manufacturers.

My vet suggested I change my cats diet to a Hills specialist diet after he had a kidney stone but he has IBS and couldn't tolerate some of the ingredients.

Can you find out what particular attributes the recommended food has and see if these same attributes are present in other foods with no / fewer grains etc. The food index sticky might help. Did the vet say in particular why your current food was unsuitable?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Just say NO to "Prescription" diets. You are absolutely right, the ingredients are horrendous and the quality is terrible.

Vets get kickbacks from selling "prescription" diets. These foods contain no medicine, the word "prescription" is a marketing scam only.

Feed your dog a good quality food avoiding corn and other grains especially, There are good supplements out there for mild arthritis, and anti-inflammatory meds for dogs in severe pain.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

@lorilu You know my views on nutrition, and I'm not a fan of prescription diets, but I still don't know where these commissions on selling prescription food come from.  In the UK at least, it doesn't happen.

@teepee1972 Some dogs seem to do well with joint supplements, such as glucosamine, salmon oil or green-lipped mussels. I'm not a nutritionist, but AFAIK the prescription diets for joint health such as Hills j/d contain such things anyway.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm sure it does. You have Hills and Purina and Royal Canin? They offer incentives, you know, sell a certain amount and get a free TV, sell a certain amount and get a this or that. I'm sure it happens over there too. If you or your clinic do not participate, that's lovely. but it happens.

Granted, the below link is a couple of years old. But it continues to happen I am positive of it. They are probably just a bit more careful about it now. Making sure these kinds of promotions are not viewable by the general public. These companies have no ethics. And while I have no problem with vets making a living, I have a huge problem with vets pushing these horrible poor quality crap foods.

http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/is-this-ethical


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## Tamberlane (Jul 8, 2014)

I have never seen commission for pet food in the way you describe happen in any practice I have ever worked or seen practice as a student in....in ireland,the uk or australia... It appears to be a very popular urban myth though.

Selling the food through the vets will make the business more money...as it is another sale on the bottom line.vets are a business after all...but the individual vets recommending the food will not make anything.

Standard fare from hills or royal canin are used as they are a safe recommendation for most dogs. Its a balanced complete food. Has it the most natural ingredients in the world. Nope. Is it complete food and nutritionally balanced.yes.
But as a basic food its a recommendation. If you work in a hospital that sells a complete balanced food chances are you will recommend it when asked over other brands that you dont sell. Why would they not? Its entirely up to owners to decide if they chose to follow a recommendation or not. Vets are a business....I dont know why anyone is surprised by this time and time again. I also do not think its as bad as food as people make it out to be. Many dogs thrive on these diets....they are still a step up from the likes of Bakers or chum tins.

The prescription diets themselves are different to normal foods. Im taking about the true prescription food here though not the standard fare.
They are recommended for medical conditions-as they are either specially formulated -for kidney stones/liver issues/gastro issue etc or have additives J/d-additional glucosamine/chondroitin etc. It is often more convenient for people to use a prescription food in the face of a medical crisis or to manage dogs with specific conditions. Managing some of these conditions on a home cooked diet can be extremely difficult and time consuming. In many cases its not possible to manage the diet at home as effectively as these foods can. The likes of Z/d is not recreate able at home...
They will not suit every dog and every condition esp if more than one condition is involved.. But as a general rule they are safe and can be very useful in managing diseases.

I work within in a large pet shop now.The vets only sells medical prescription foods with a prescription for that product from ourselves or another vet.
The petshop sell dozens of brands of foods.From grainfree to preprepared raw to cheap as chips complete own brand. 
The petstore does have weeks where they have commission and prizes for getting stock out on certain foods! Something going out of date in the next few months-flag that food and get it off the shelves. In order to motivate their people to sell it they have a competition...
The most expensive brands are heavily recommended....as its a business and selling an expensive food makes more money....but they have a food for every finance level as its good business.

When someone asks me to recommend a food I recommend a complete dog food that their dog will eat. 
Mention that you tend to get better quality ingredients-higher animal protein levels and less filler if you pay for them.Point out dogs are colour blind so no great reason to have coloured food so thats for your benefit not the dogs. But as long as it says complete its just a matter of finding a brand the dog thrives on.

Buyer beware and do your own research. The pet food industry is a business to.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

lorilu said:


> I'm sure it does. *You have Hills and Purina and Royal Canin? They offer incentives, you know, sell a certain amount and get a free TV, sell a certain amount and get a this or that. I'm sure it happens over there too.* If you or your clinic do not participate, that's lovely. but it happens.
> 
> Granted, the below link is a couple of years old. But it continues to happen I am positive of it. They are probably just a bit more careful about it now. Making sure these kinds of promotions are not viewable by the general public. These companies have no ethics. And while I have no problem with vets making a living, I have a huge problem with vets pushing these horrible poor quality crap foods.
> 
> http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/is-this-ethical


My practice got a free pen once? Although to be honest, I think that one might have accidentally been left behind rather than being a reward for any sales figures...


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

lorilu said:


> I'm sure it does. You have Hills and Purina and Royal Canin? They offer incentives, you know, sell a certain amount and get a free TV, sell a certain amount and get a this or that. I'm sure it happens over there too. If you or your clinic do not participate, that's lovely. but it happens.
> 
> Granted, the below link is a couple of years old. But it continues to happen I am positive of it. They are probably just a bit more careful about it now. Making sure these kinds of promotions are not viewable by the general public. These companies have no ethics. And while I have no problem with vets making a living, I have a huge problem with vets pushing these horrible poor quality crap foods.
> 
> http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/is-this-ethical


Really lorilu, in the UK it doesn't happen. You might get crappy free gifts like pens or mugs if you stop by their stand at BSAVA Congress, or if you have a visit from a rep. They might bring you lunch if they're coming in for a meeting, as do many reps in many industries I'm sure.

But regular commissions for selling the food? TVs? Never been in a practice yet that gets this stuff, even the die-hard Hills or Royal Canin practices, and I've worked in dozens of practices in different parts of the country. I have a pretty good knowledge of the veterinary profession in the UK.

I suppose it's worth pointing out that other suppliers (Orijen, Nature's Menu etc) who sell raw or grain-free food also 'bribe' vets with pens, mugs and lunch. I think it's more of a business thing and less of a specific prescription diet thing.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Little P said:


> My practice got a free pen once? Although to be honest, I think that one might have accidentally been left behind rather than being a reward for any sales figures...


We got some of those plastic can lids for tinned food once. Actually I think they were probably meant for us to give to clients, but one or two may possibly be sitting in my kitchen drawer right now...


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

lorilu said:


> I'm sure it does. You have Hills and Purina and Royal Canin? They offer incentives, you know, sell a certain amount and get a free TV, sell a certain amount and get a this or that. I'm sure it happens over there too. If you or your clinic do not participate, that's lovely. but it happens.


No it doesn't. At least not in the UK, and if you have absolute proof then you need to report both the practice and the company as this is an offence under the Bribery and Corruption Act.
I am not involved in the veterinary industry, but I work for a pharmaceutical company and we have to have mandatory training in this.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Interesting link. It doesn't sit well with me that practices should get any reward for selling anything, but I do note that this is a promotion to help a practice improve its waiting room rather than rewarding individuals. I don't like it at all, but I won't pretend such things don't go on in almost every trade.


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## teepee1972 (Sep 9, 2015)

Thanks for the responses all, i have her on joint force anyway http://www.viovet.co.uk/Joint_Force_for_Dogs/c23775/

but given that she is way way past the life expectancy of most dogs i will admit i am unsure if they help.

As to the general discussion of dogs nutrition, it can be very confusing, ive read both the 'dogs are wolves' argument for a high meat diet, 
and the 'dogs have evolved to eat farm products' argument. Ive also read that 'old dogs should have lower protein for their kidneys' and read that
'old dogs need more protein to keep muscle mass'!!! So it can be hard to do the right thing

I think ill call and ask for more info, thanks again. I know im coming across as neurotic! but although she is a happy dog she is fairly frail now so i tend to monitor everything (the only treats she gets nowadays is a green tripe treat in the morning and a tin of sardines once a week)


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I feel your pain, unfortunately everyone has an "agenda" and the food fascists out there often make completely unsubstantiated statements to forward their own arguments. 

Unfortunately the vast majority dishing out advice on canine nutrition have no industry recognised qualifications in the dietary department and have subjective not objective views.

There is for example absolutely no scientific evidence to underpin the recommendation that dogs should be only eat a grain free diet (unless of course an individual specimen has an allergy or intolerance). 

Many people just regurgitate the myths spouted by others

I find it quite amusing that many are very keen on stating that vets do not get specific training on nutrition (other than that provided by PFMA and the like) as proof they have no idea what they are talking about when they themselves have none!

Go figure!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> I'm sure it does. You have Hills and Purina and Royal Canin? They offer incentives, you know, sell a certain amount and get a free TV, sell a certain amount and get a this or that. I'm sure it happens over there too. If you or your clinic do not participate, that's lovely. but it happens.
> 
> Granted, the below link is a couple of years old. But it continues to happen I am positive of it. They are probably just a bit more careful about it now. Making sure these kinds of promotions are not viewable by the general public. These companies have no ethics. And while I have no problem with vets making a living, I have a huge problem with vets pushing these horrible poor quality crap foods.
> 
> http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/is-this-ethical


Lots of people are positive that there is a God, that does not make it a fact. 

Readers are reminded of the need to critically evaluate sources of knowledge relating to canine management and request posters who make such allegations to demonstrate their competency in assessing canine nutritional needs. Comment is free, but facts are sacred (C P Scott)


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Have you considered using a joint supplement?
Mobile Bones is very good and some people have found it works as well as some vet meds.
It helps my OAP cat and sorted Heidi's on/ off limp a couple of years ago.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

teepee1972 said:


> Thanks for the responses all, i have her on joint force anyway http://www.viovet.co.uk/Joint_Force_for_Dogs/c23775/
> 
> but given that she is way way past the life expectancy of most dogs i will admit i am unsure if they help.
> 
> ...


Trust your instincts. The "prescription" food is over priced crap. You don't need a degree to read a list of ingredients. And in the USA the ingredients have to be listed in detail. So we know what's in that crap. I also know, from experience, what that stuff can do to an animal's digestion. Feed your dog a good species appropriate diet. Use the anti-inflammatory pain meds the doc prescribed when needed and use joint supplements that contain glucosamine.

Raw organic apple cider vinegar is also excellent for arthritis, and good for your dog's digestion besides.

Massage can help, too.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Trust your instincts. The "prescription" food is over priced crap. You don't need a degree to read a list of ingredients. And in the USA the ingredients have to be listed in detail. So we know what's in that crap. I also know, from experience, what that stuff can do to an animal's digestion. Feed your dog a good species appropriate diet. Use the anti-inflammatory pain meds the doc prescribed when needed and use joint supplements that contain glucosamine.
> 
> Raw organic apple cider vinegar is also excellent for arthritis, and good for your dog's digestion besides.
> 
> Massage can help, too.


Dog food labelling is the same in the UK,

So we know what is in it, who defines what is "crap" is of course down to the individual user.

There are strict laws in the UK about what can and cannot be put in dog food

There is little scientific evidence to indicate that glucosamine (or any other chondroprotective agent) is any more or less effective than a placebo and of course it does not suit all dogs.

The same is true re Apple Cider Vinegar.

Of course individuals may have anecdotal evidence that it works for their own specific dog. 

Peanuts can be fatal to some people, does not make them crap however. A useful analogy to remember I think.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Fortunately more and more people are beginning to be concerned about the quality of pet food, and open to learning. Not everyone though. But the ones who are willing to learn are the ones whose pets, (and by extension their owners,) benefit. 

Raw, organic apple cider vinegar is beneficial for many things. Arthritis and digestion are only two of them. I have a pet whose digestion was destroyed by a "prescription" diet. It's been a long road, and she probably will never fully recover. But AVC (raw, organic, with the mother), has been instrumental in her progress. I take the ACV myself for what once was crippling arthritis. It has changed my life. : )


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## teepee1972 (Sep 9, 2015)

@lurilu

Im using joint force which is similar in content, to be honest i am not sure whether its snake oil medicine or helpful- i obsessively read the human trials regarding it, and there seem to be mixed results (and of course humans arent dogs).

She still goes crazy when its walk time, she just gets very quickly tired now, and if shes been sleeping a long time she struggles to get up.

At 17 i guess its to be expected, its hard to see them get frail when you have had them from a puppy though


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I think that Vet's Kitchen food contains joint supplements anyway and the senior food is low protein.

If your dog is doing ok on the VK food, and you are happy with it then ignore the vet and please yourself.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> Peanuts can be fatal to some people, does not make them crap however.


I think they are when they're salted and roasted. I like them raw with the skin on.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Fortunately more and more people are beginning to be concerned about the quality of pet food, and open to learning. Not everyone though. But the ones who are willing to learn are the ones whose pets, (and by extension their owners,) benefit.
> 
> Raw, organic apple cider vinegar is beneficial for many things. Arthritis and digestion are only two of them. I have a pet whose digestion was destroyed by a "prescription" diet. It's been a long road, and she probably will never fully recover. But AVC (raw, organic, with the mother), has been instrumental in her progress. I take the ACV myself for what once was crippling arthritis. It has changed my life. : )


I think many of us have been concerned about the quality of food regardless of the species for which it is intended for some considerable time.

Those of us who are willing to learn go to those with the relevant knowledge rather than self styled experts.

I am thrilled that AVC has been a miracle for both you and your dog, but that does not make it a cure all for all dogs....................


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Peanuts can be fatal to some people, does not make them crap however. A useful analogy to remember I think.


That's because they have a severe sensitivity to peanuts that will result in anaphylactic shock. Nothing to do with the nutritional value of peanuts. Not sure that is a good analogy for cheap inappropriate ingredients in dog food.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Mesotes said:


> That's because they have a severe sensitisation to peanuts that will result in anaphylactic shock. Nothing to do with the nutritional value of peanuts.


Really? Good heavens who knew......................................... ?????????????????????

If someone makes an assertion that dog food is full of crap, they need to say a) define "crap" in this contect and b) what nutritional value they do not possess....................... seems that has not occurred in this thread yet, despite all the "positives" and wild baseless allegations etc.

Perhaps you could enlighten us?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> Dog food labelling is the same in the UK,
> 
> So we know what is in it, who defines what is "crap" is of course down to the individual user.
> 
> ...


I'm sure I have seen you recommend Yumove Advance though which has been clinically proven after 2.5 years of clinical trials undertaken by the RVC

http://www.lintbells.com/products/yumove-advance


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I'm sure I have seen you recommend Yumove Advance though which has been clinically proven after 2.5 years of clinical trials undertaken by the RVC
> 
> http://www.lintbells.com/products/yumove-advance


I have recommended it, as I said there is LITTLE scientific evidence, not NO scientific evidence.  And this study was restricted to one particular product in a range, not the whole gamut of chondroprotective agents that exist on the market.

HTH


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Really? Good heavens who knew......................................... ?????????????????????
> 
> If someone makes an assertion that dog food is full of crap, they need to say a) define "crap" in this contect and b) what nutritional value they do not possess....................... seems that has not occurred in this thread yet, despite all the "positives" and wild baseless allegations etc.
> 
> Perhaps you could enlighten us?


To what exactly? Ingredients like ethoxyquin, propylene glycol, corn syrup, and 'by product'? Whatever the "science" (ie bought and paid for my the dog food manufacturers) say, I am not feeding that to my dog. But what do I know, I am just a humble raw feeder with a healthy, thriving dog.


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## petl0v3r (Jul 4, 2013)

Do your research, and feed your dog.. off what you think is best for her!

I prefer to feed my boy a high quality meet content diet! 
Forthglade Natural Lifestage Grain Free, I know they do a senior version for older dogs also! 
http://www.forthglade.com/natural-l...turkey-with-butternut-squash-vegetables-395g/

Contains:

Contains Glucosamine & Chrondroitin & Salmon Oil..
Good for joints etc.. I believe.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Mesotes said:


> To what exactly? Ingredients like ethoxyquin, propylene glycol, corn syrup, and 'by product'? Whatever the "science" (ie bought and paid for my the dog food manufacturers) say, I am not feeding that to my dog. But what do I know, I am just a humble raw feeder with a healthy, thriving dog.


Nothing wrong with a by product  There are plenty of owners with healthy, thriving dogs that are fed commercial dog foods, and not all dogs fed raw are thriving or healthy.

This is the problem when individuals take subjective not objective views and want to pretend that one method is ipso facto better than another.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Nothing wrong with a by product  There are plenty of owners with healthy, thriving dogs that are fed commercial dog foods, and not all dogs fed raw are thriving or healthy.
> 
> This is the problem when individuals take subjective not objective views and want to pretend that one method is ipso facto better than another.


Depends what's in the "by product", it could be pretty much any meat, chicken, lamb, beef, fish, turkey and so on. However, "by product" are the internal remains of an animal, not including the muscle meat, and this will include diseased tissues, organs and tumours. Call me subjective, but I am not feeding my dog diseased tissue, and call me delusional for wanting to feed real food, as opposed to highly processed, manufactured dried food.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Mesotes said:


> Depends what's in the "by product", it could be pretty much any meat, chicken, lamb, beef, fish, turkey and so on. However, "by product" are the internal remains of an animal, not including the muscle meat, and this will include diseased tissues, organs and tumours. Call me subjective, but I am not feeding my dog diseased tissue, and call me delusional for wanting to feed real food, as opposed to highly processed, manufactured dried food.


I am not sure where you get the idea that a) internal organs are of any less dietary value to dogs than muscle meat, that is a new one on me and b) that by products also consist of diseased tissues, organs and tumours. In the UK that is certainly not the case. I would suggest you educated yourself on the statutory legislation surrounding the manufacture and production of dog food in this country.

There is no guarantee that feeding raw does not include such diseased meat or tumours and of course ready made raw food produeced commerically is processed.

I WANT my dogs to consume heart, liver and other organs, they are valuable sources of nutrients including vitamins.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

My dog also eats heart, liver and other organ meats, but he eats fresh (or frozen) organ meat from healthy pastured animals, not from industrial feed-lot, diseased animals. So yes, I am sure he isn't eating tumours or diseased tissue. I know where his food comes from, as I know where my food comes from also. But given the choice I would feed my dog commercial raw over dried food any day. You may choose differently.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

From what I understand, a diet high in animal protein is beneficial for older dogs, unless they cannot process too much protein for whatever reason. I do not buy into these prescription diets as the quality of them is generally too poor for me to consider since I feed grain and chicken free due to intolerances.

I give my dogs green lipped mussel tablets daily for their joints and it seems to help with one of my dogs in particular. On the occasions I run out and do not buy any straight away, he reverts back to toe touching on a hind leg.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Mesotes said:


> However, "by product" are the internal remains of an animal, not including the muscle meat, and this will include diseased tissues, organs and tumours.


That's not quite the definition of ABPs (animal by-products). Muscle meat frequently ends up as a class 3 ABP if it's of no commercial value (eg if it's bruised). It doesn't mean it's unsafe to eat.

Under UK law, pet food manufacturers are prohibited from using class 1 or 2 ABPs, which are those that contain diseased tissue, SRM or carcases of animals that have been treated with medications.

As a rule, all material entering commercial pet food legally has been passed as fit for human consumption.

Source: DEFRA/AHPA


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> That's not quite the definition of ABPs (animal by-products). Muscle meat frequently ends up as a class 3 ABP if it's of no commercial value (eg if it's bruised). It doesn't mean it's unsafe to eat.
> 
> Under UK law, pet food manufacturers are prohibited from using class 1 or 2 ABPs, which are those that contain diseased tissue, SRM or carcases of animals that have been treated with medications.
> 
> ...


Precisely!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> *Lots of people are positive that there is a God, that does not make it a fact.*
> 
> Readers are reminded of the need to critically evaluate sources of knowledge relating to canine management and request posters who make such allegations to demonstrate their competency in assessing canine nutritional needs. Comment is free, but facts are sacred (C P Scott)


Might I remind everyone that it doesn't make it a fiction, either


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

lorilu said:


> I'm sure it does. You have Hills and Purina and Royal Canin? They offer incentives, you know, sell a certain amount and get a free TV, sell a certain amount and get a this or that. I'm sure it happens over there too. If you or your clinic do not participate, that's lovely. but it happens.
> 
> Granted, the below link is a couple of years old. But it continues to happen I am positive of it. They are probably just a bit more careful about it now. Making sure these kinds of promotions are not viewable by the general public. These companies have no ethics. And while I have no problem with vets making a living, I have a huge problem with vets pushing these horrible poor quality crap foods.
> 
> http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/is-this-ethical


My vet has treated my dogs for over thirty years and he is also a very close friend.

I asked him once if he got 'backhanders' from Hills or any of the other Companies and he said "I wish".

The Vet Practice make a small profit on these foods as the Retailer, but lavish gifts, no.

Do you actually have any proof that this goes on?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Mesotes said:


> Depends what's in the "by product", it could be pretty much any meat, chicken, lamb, beef, fish, turkey and so on. However, "by product" are the internal remains of an animal, not including the muscle meat, and this will include diseased tissues, organs and tumours. Call me subjective, but I am not feeding my dog diseased tissue, and call me delusional for wanting to feed real food, as opposed to highly processed, manufactured dried food.


If a dog killed a rabbit, it wouldn't eat the prime cuts and leave the rest.

How on Earth do wolves survive?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sweety said:


> If a dog killed a rabbit, it wouldn't eat the prime cuts and leave the rest.
> 
> How on Earth do wolves survive?


God and think of all the dogs fed on road kill..... And humans for that matter!! 

P.s meant human eating road kill not dogs being fed humans....


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Nothing like a bit of road kill.

I always like that FB cartoon which has a picture of someone telling another that their dog is fed on organic meat and drinks only mineral water whilst in the background the dog is chowing down on a pile of excrement...........................


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Meezey said:


> God and think of all the dogs fed on road kill..... And humans for that matter!!
> 
> P.s meant human repeating road kill not dogs being fed humans....


LOL. Exactly. I wouldn't say no to a dead pheasant picked up off the road and neither would Rosie!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Nothing like a bit of road kill.
> 
> I always like that FB cartoon which has a picture of someone telling another that their dog is fed on organic meat and drinks only mineral water whilst in the background the dog is chowing down on a pile of excrement...........................


Laughed at that. I had to listen to a row once between my neighbours. The Wife feeds their dog a vegetarian diet and bottled water and the Husband had given it a piece of Kentucky Fried Chicken! 

I listened until my patience ran out and said to the woman "for God's sake love, this is the dog that eats crap in the woods".


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Meezey said:


> God and think of all the dogs fed on road kill..... And humans for that matter!!
> 
> *P.s meant human eating road kill not dogs being fed humans.*...


Spoilsport . . .


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Sweety said:


> If a dog killed a rabbit, it wouldn't eat the prime cuts and leave the rest.
> 
> How on Earth do wolves survive?


Not by eating kibble. The rabbit is fresh, not cooked or rendered at high temperatures until it becomes nothing like the original, so that synthetic nutrients have to be added back to make it in the least bit nutritious. There is nothing wrong with eating the whole animal, fur and all, what is not so good is eating highly, processed diseased meat.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Mesotes said:


> Not by eating kibble. The rabbit is fresh, not cooked or rendered at high temperatures until it becomes nothing like the original, so that synthetic nutrients have to be added back to make it in the least bit nutritious. There is nothing wrong with eating the whole animal, fur and all, what is not so good is eating highly, processed diseased meat.


I may have missed it, but I haven't seen anyone arguing that. I don't get the impression that anyone here is anti-raw feeding, just taking issue with some of the incorrect information posted.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Mesotes said:


> Not by eating kibble. The rabbit is fresh, not cooked or rendered at high temperatures until it becomes nothing like the original, so that synthetic nutrients have to be added back to make it in the least bit nutritious. There is nothing wrong with eating the whole animal, fur and all, what is not so good is eating highly, processed diseased meat.


fortunately in the UK, we are a little more evolved, we do not put diseased meat in commercial dog food.

Go figure.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> fortunately in the UK, we are a little more evolved, we do not put diseased meat in commercial dog food.
> 
> Go figure.


Diseased meat is one thing, but even non-diseased animal parts, cooked and rendered at high heat with synthetic nutrients added back doesn't do it for me either. I am happy to spend the money and time on feeding raw. Your mileage may vary.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Mesotes said:


> Not by eating kibble. The rabbit is fresh, not cooked or rendered at high temperatures until it becomes nothing like the original, so that synthetic nutrients have to be added back to make it in the least bit nutritious. There is nothing wrong with eating the whole animal, fur and all, what is not so good is eating highly, processed diseased meat.


Don't think anyone is arguing that fact, but raw feeding isn't the only way to feed nor is it the best way to feed for some dogs or owners! Food snobbery gets right up my nose.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Hopefully she will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think when Sweety said this:



Sweety said:


> If a dog killed a rabbit, it wouldn't eat the prime cuts and leave the rest.
> 
> How on Earth do wolves survive?


She was responding to this:

*Mesotes*: _Depends what's in the "by product", it could be pretty much any meat, chicken, lamb, beef, fish, turkey and so on. However, "by product" are the internal remains of an animal, not including the muscle meat, and this will include diseased tissues, organs and tumours. Call me subjective, but I am not feeding my dog diseased tissue, and call me delusional for wanting to feed real food, as opposed to highly processed, manufactured dried food._

I can only assume this came across wrong, but Mesotes' appeasers to be suggesting that organs are bad whereas muscle meat is good. I read it as Sweety asking whether dogs would only eat the muscle on the rabbit, while leaving the organs.

Of course, we all know that they don't. But I feel that the point was lost somewhat in the confusion...

Edit: sorry, I completely messed up the quotes there.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Don't think anyone is arguing that fact, but raw feeding isn't the only way to feed nor is it the best way to feed for some dogs or owners! Food snobbery gets right up my nose.


I feed my dog what I think is best, as I am sure kibble feeders do. If you think raw feeders like me are snobs and we get up your nose, that's your issue.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Shoshannah said:


> I can only assume this came across wrong, but Mesotes' appeared to be suggesting that organs are bad whereas muscle meat is good. I read it as Sweety asking whether dogs would only eat the muscle on the rabbit, while leaving the organs.
> 
> Of course, we all know that they don't. But I feel that the point was lost somewhat in the confusion...


If you read my other posts you will see I feed my dog raw organ meat as part of his diet. I won't feed my dog, highly processed food, organ meat or muscle meat. But that is just my preference. In the same way, I don't eat dried, highly processed food.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Mesotes said:


> I feed my dog what I think is best, as I am sure kibble feeders do. If you think raw feeders like me are snobs and we get up your nose, that's your issue.


I suppose most people feed their pets what they think is best for their circumstances.

Not all raw feeders are as prescriptive as you come across.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Mesotes said:


> I feed my dog what I think is best, as I am sure kibble feeders do. If you think raw feeders like me are snobs and we get up your nose, that's your issue.


It's not the fact that someone feeds raw which tends to be the issue.

It's the fact that often, those who feed raw, treat those who don't as though they're selling their dog short or even poisoning it.

You do come across that way.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Mesotes said:


> If you read my other posts you will see I feed my dog raw organ meat as part of his diet. I won't feed my dog, highly processed food, organ meat or muscle meat. But that is just my preference. In the same way, I don't eat dried, highly processed food.


That's entirely fair enough. I think those who choose to feed their pets prescription diets are equally free to do so.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Shoshannah said:


> Hopefully she will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think when Sweety said this:
> 
> She was responding to this:
> 
> ...


You're spot on Shoshannah.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Sweety said:


> It's not the fact that someone feeds raw which tends to be the issue.
> 
> It's the fact that often, those who feed raw, treat those who don't as though they're selling their dog short or even poisoning it.
> 
> You do come across that way.


Sorry you feel that way, I am only expressing my feelings on dried food. If someone is secure in what they feed their dog/s then what I think shouldn't matter one bit.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Mesotes said:


> I feed my dog what I think is best, as I am sure kibble feeders do. If you think raw feeders like me are snobs and we get up your nose, that's your issue.


No I don't think raw feeders are snobs, not at all but I do find it very annoying when they lord it over others about what they feed! Kibble isn't evil nor is raw the best way to feed!


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Shoshannah said:


> That's entirely fair enough. I think those who choose to feed their pets prescription diets are equally free to do so.


Definitely.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

The fact remains, there are still plenty of dogs and cats out there who live very long lives having eaten junk like Felix or Caesar their whole lives!


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Meezey said:


> No I don't think raw feeders are snobs, not at all but I do find it very annoying when they lord it over others about what they fed! Kibble isn't evil nor is raw the best way to feed!


But why would anyone care what I think? Why let a raw-feeder lord it over you, if you are happy with your choice?


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Shoshannah said:


> The fact remains, there are still plenty of dogs and cats out there who live very long lives having eaten junk like Felix or Caesar their whole lives!


I am sure, but I am happy not to have to pick up their poo!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Mesotes said:


> But why would anyone care what I think? Why let a raw-feeder lord it over you, if you are happy with your choice?


I don't care, just stating the fact it isn't always the best way to feed for all dogs, and just because you feed your dog "prime cuts" of meat doesn't make your dog any fitted or healthier than those who chose to feed kibble...


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Mesotes said:


> Diseased meat is one thing, but even non-diseased animal parts, cooked and rendered at high heat with synthetic nutrients added back doesn't do it for me either. I am happy to spend the money and time on feeding raw. Your mileage may vary.


I have been feeding raw for 15 years.............. 

I am just not a food fascist.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Meezey said:


> I don't care, just stating the fact it isn't always the best way to feed for all dogs, and just because you feed your dog "prime cuts" of meat doesn't make your dog any fitted or healthier than those who chose to feed kibble...


My dog doesn't eat 'prime cuts' I would be bankrupt if he lived on sirloin, but I do believe he is generally healthier than kibble fed dogs, no itching, no allergies, never an ear infection, clean teeth, etc. But that is just my opinion, which you are free to disregard as nonsense.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Surely not all kibbles are created equal. IMO there's a world of difference between this:

Freshly Prepared Duck (14%), Sweet Potato, Dried Duck (11%), Freshly Prepared Salmon (9%), Dried Herring (8%), Dried Salmon (7%), Freshly Prepared White Fish* (7%), Freshly Prepared Lamb (7%), Dried Rabbit(7%), Tapioca, Chick Pea, Duck Fat (4%), Freshly Prepared Venison (3%), Salmon Oil (2%), Duck Gravy (1%), Tomato Pomace, Minerals, Vitamins, Glucosamine (0.01%), Methylsulfonylmethane ( 0.01%), Chondroitin Sulphate (0.01%), Dried Apple, Carrot Flakes, Lovage Powder, Seaweed Meal, Dried Cranberry, Aniseed, Fenugreek, Camomile Powder, Burdock Root Powder, Peppermint, Dandelion Herb, thyme, marjoram, oregano, parsley, sage


And this:

Cereals, Meat and animal derivatives (8%* in the hoops ), Derivatives of vegetable origin, Vegetable protein extracts, Oils and fats, Minerals, Vegetables (discs : 0.6 % dried vegetables, equivalent to 4% vegetables), Yeasts.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> I have been feeding raw for 15 years..............
> 
> I am just not a food fascist.


Rep.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Shoshannah said:


> Surely not all kibbles are created equal. IMO there's a world of difference between this:
> 
> Freshly Prepared Duck (14%), Sweet Potato, Dried Duck (11%), Freshly Prepared Salmon (9%), Dried Herring (8%), Dried Salmon (7%), Freshly Prepared White Fish* (7%), Freshly Prepared Lamb (7%), Dried Rabbit(7%), Tapioca, Chick Pea, Duck Fat (4%), Freshly Prepared Venison (3%), Salmon Oil (2%), Duck Gravy (1%), Tomato Pomace, Minerals, Vitamins, Glucosamine (0.01%), Methylsulfonylmethane ( 0.01%), Chondroitin Sulphate (0.01%), Dried Apple, Carrot Flakes, Lovage Powder, Seaweed Meal, Dried Cranberry, Aniseed, Fenugreek, Camomile Powder, Burdock Root Powder, Peppermint, Dandelion Herb, thyme, marjoram, oregano, parsley, sage
> 
> ...


Absolutely there is a huge difference in kibble brands. But both are cooked and I prefer to feed raw.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Mesotes said:


> My dog doesn't eat 'prime cuts' I would be bankrupt if he lived on sirloin, but I do believe he is generally healthier than kibble fed dogs, no itching, no allergies, never an ear infection, clean teeth, etc. But that is just my opinion, which you are free to disregard as nonsense.


How do you know he is?

I know plenty of dogs who are raw fed who still have allergies? Raw feeding doesn't stop or lessen environmental allergies! Raw fed dogs also get ear infections, you just might have a dog not prone to either so it has no relationship to diet?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I once met someone who pronounced kibble as 'keeble'. It made me laugh, I must admit. 'I give him half a bowl of keebles in the morning...'


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Meezey said:


> How do you know he is?
> 
> I know plenty of dogs who are raw fed who still have allergies? Raw feeding doesn't stop or lessen environmental allergies! Raw fed dogs also get ear infections, you just might have a dog not prone to either so it has no relationship to diet?


How do I know? How do I know my kids are healthy? Because they have strong immune systems. I know raw fed dogs get ear infections, allergies. There is more to it than raw feeding.

ETA: The fact that neither my dog nor my kids (who are teens) have ever required a sick visit to the vet (or doctor) is a big clue to me.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Mesotes said:


> How do I know? How do I know my kids are healthy? Because they have strong immune systems. I know raw fed dogs get ear infections, allergies. There is more to it than raw feeding.


Then why use it as a reason that he hasn't got any of these ailments?
A compromised immune system isn't just down to feeding?
How do you know he is healthier than kibble fed dogs?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Mesotes said:


> How do I know? How do I know my kids are healthy? Because they have strong immune systems. I know raw fed dogs get ear infections, allergies. There is more to it than raw feeding.
> 
> ETA: The fact that neither my dog nor my kids (who are teens) have ever required a sick visit to the vet (or doctor) is a big clue to me.


Oh dear, a reminder that correlation does not = causation.....................


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Mesotes said:


> My dog doesn't eat 'prime cuts' I would be bankrupt if he lived on sirloin, but I do believe he is generally healthier than kibble fed dogs, no itching, no allergies, never an ear infection, clean teeth, etc. But that is just my opinion, which you are free to disregard as nonsense.


Raw feeder of 40 years.

List of ailments between my current four dogs include diabetes, allergies, arthritis, dry eye, acid reflux and (currently un-diagnosed but strongly suspected) cushings disease. Go figure!

I _personally _think raw is the best diet for _my dogs_ too - but it doesn't automatically make them any healthier than kibble fed dogs. Nine times out of ten, it's luck of the draw.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Then why use it as a reason that he hasn't got any of these ailments?
> 
> How do you know he is healthier than kibble fed dogs?


Because he has never been ill? The only issue he has had is one bout of diarrhea from eating deer poo, cleared up with colloidal silver in two days, and on two occasions he ate a sock which took a couple of days for him to pass, during which time if wasn't feeling too great. Other than that his has always been in perfect health.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Mesotes said:


> ETA: The fact that neither my dog nor my kids (who are teens) have ever required a sick visit to the vet (or doctor) is a big clue to me.


My 13 year old GSD never required Vet treatment until he had to be PTS, he was fed kibble for most of his life and at a few point pretty low quality stuff! Never an allergy or ear infection in his life, all his teeth still in great nick at the time he passed, fit as a fiddle till DM ended his life, if he'd been fed raw the outcome would still have been the same!


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Oh dear, a reminder that correlation does not = causation.....................


Not in this case.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Meezey said:


> My 13 year old GSD never required Vet treatment until he had to be PTS, he was fed kibble for most of his life and at a few point pretty low quality stuff! Never an allergy or ear infection in his life, all his teeth still in great nick at the time he passed, fit as a fiddle till DM ended his life, if he'd been fed raw the outcome would still have been the same!


Gosh @Meezey he did well for a GSD! They seem to get everything going, poor loves.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Oddly have a 3 year old raw fed Rottweiler who had had allergies from a few months old, he was weaned on raw!


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Meezey said:


> My 13 year old GSD never required Vet treatment until he had to be PTS, he was fed kibble for most of his life and at a few point pretty low quality stuff! Never an allergy or ear infection in his life, all his teeth still in great nick at the time he passed, fit as a fiddle till DM ended his life, if he'd been fed raw the outcome would still have been the same!


That' is awesome. There are other things I avoid with both the dog and the kids, so raw-feeding is certainly not the only reason they are healthier than most, IMO.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> Gosh @Meezey he did well for a GSD! They seem to get everything going, poor loves.


He did, fantastic boy, other than always managing to cut his pads he never had a days illness! He was just wonderful.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Meezey said:


> My 13 year old GSD never required Vet treatment until he had to be PTS, he was fed kibble for most of his life and at a few point pretty low quality stuff! Never an allergy or ear infection in his life, all his teeth still in great nick at the time he passed, fit as a fiddle till DM ended his life, if he'd been fed raw the outcome would still have been the same!


Aw fab. My son has a GSD who must be knocking on for somewhere around 14 now, rescue so not 100% sure. She's fed a prescription diet ... !!!!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Also had a raw fed boy who was diagnosed with Diabetes insipudus at 18 months!!! Very rare more so in such a young dog.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

SixStar said:


> Aw fab. My son has a GSD who must be knocking on for somewhere around 14 now, rescue so not 100% sure. She's fed a prescription diet ... !!!!


 14  God love her  just wonderful.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I've never had conjunctivitis. I think it's because I eat so many flapjacks. I have a friend who gets conjunctivitis all the time but she virtually never eats flapjacks. I would suggest flapjacks to maintain ocular health.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Sorry, I'm being facetious.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

So anyway point I'm trying to make is I fed raw, but I still wouldn't rubbish kibble nor would I try to even inadvertently make people feel they were not feeding their dog right or the best diet for their dog if they don't fed raw.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> I've never had conjunctivitis. I think it's because I eat so many flapjacks. I have a friend who gets conjunctivitis all the time but she virtually never eats flapjacks. I would suggest flapjacks to maintain ocular health.


I don't like them  they give me wind!!!!!


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Meezey said:


> So anyway point I'm trying to make is I fed raw, but I still wouldn't rubbish kibble nor would I try to even inadvertently make people feel they were not feeding their dog right or the best diet for their dog if they don't fed raw.


Absolutely.

I've looked at commercial dog foods inside out and upside down - and made an informed choice that a raw diet is definitely the way to go for _my_ dogs - but by no means is it for everyone, and those who feed raw are certainly not superior to those who don't.

Much rather see a dog fed a commercial diet than an ill-thought out raw one - which is increasingly popular since raw became the ''in thing''.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Meezey said:


> So anyway point I'm trying to make is I fed raw, but I still wouldn't rubbish kibble nor would I try to even inadvertently make people feel they were not feeding their dog right or the best diet for their dog if they don't fed raw.


:Cat

The point I'M trying to make is that not all 'evidence' is created equal, and that we should aim to critically appraise the source, reliability and limitations of any evidence we present to support our arguments.

Next?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Meezey said:


> I don't like them  they give me wind!!!!!


Well, it's that or deadly eye necrosis - your choice! :Hilarious


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Sweety said:


> My vet has treated my dogs for over thirty years and he is also a very close friend.
> 
> I asked him once if he got 'backhanders' from Hills or any of the other Companies and he said "I wish".
> 
> ...


I already posted a link from Purina



Sweety said:


> If a dog killed a rabbit, it wouldn't eat the prime cuts and leave the rest.
> 
> How on Earth do wolves survive?





Meezey said:


> God and think of all the dogs fed on road kill..... And humans for that matter!!
> 
> P.s meant human eating road kill not dogs being fed humans....


A dog eating road kill and consumers spending money for something that is supposedly good for their pets are two entirely different things. Road kill is not going to be full of all the other awful things added to commercial pet foods.

I see the thread has gone on a few more pages which I don't have time to read now. I stand by my opinion. those so called "Prescription" diets made by Hills, Royal Canin and Purina are full of junk. Corn, other grains cellulose, to name only three things. They are not medicine, the word "Prescription" is a marketing handle.

I don't have a problems with vets making a profit. I DO have a problem vets pushing these foods, because it is garbage.

Some of the posts I've glanced at..oh the innocence of people who want to trust their vet and pet food manufacturers. The information is out there if you want it. I trust my vet...as far as biannual check ups, and diagnosis if something terrible goes wrong. I wouldn't trust a word she says about diet though.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Mesotes said:


> *It's the fact that often, those who feed raw, treat those who don't as though they're selling their dog short or even poisoning it.*


The pet food equivalent of breast-feeding advocates, then - some of them are rabid!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

@lostbear, somehow I don't think Mesotes said that!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lorilu said:


> I already posted a link from Purina
> 
> A dog eating road kill and consumers spending money for something that is supposedly good for their pets are two entirely different things. Road kill is not going to be full of all the other awful things added to commercial pet foods.
> 
> ...


That's great for you! What are your qualification in nutrition?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

@Mesotes a lot of the people on this thread feed raw, we are just trying to make the point its not always the best option for every dog and that plenty of dogs do perfectly well on kibble and some don't necessarily do well on raw. Its all about finding what is best for your dog and not being inflexible. My two pointers get a mixture of raw, cooked, and a mixer that contains (shock horror) rice. One of them was recently diagnosed with an anal gland abscess - the vets face was a picture when I very indignantly told her that was not possible as he is fed raw  I was only joking by the way. My boys have lovely clean white teeth but Indie rottie who is fed completely on raw including bones/carcass has manky teeth and she is only 3.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2015)

Mesotes said:


> Because he has never been ill? The only issue he has had is one bout of diarrhea from eating deer poo, cleared up with colloidal silver in two days, and on two occasions he ate a sock which took a couple of days for him to pass, during which time if wasn't feeling too great. Other than that his has always been in perfect health.


My kibble fed dogs also eat dead disgustingness they find in the woods, and plenty of deer and rabbit poop. None of it makes them sick. Maybe if you fed kibble your dog wouldn't get sick from eating deer poop


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I have to say, for all its faults, I've seen a few sick dogs and cats (who turn down every food you can throw at them) decide they want to chow down on a bit of a/d.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Shoshannah said:


> I have to say, for all its faults, I've seen a few sick dogs and cats (who turn down every food you can throw at them) decide they want to chow down on a bit of a/d.


My cat wouldn't be here without it.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> I already posted a link from Purina
> 
> A dog eating road kill and consumers spending money for something that is supposedly good for their pets are two entirely different things. Road kill is not going to be full of all the other awful things added to commercial pet foods.
> 
> ...


Well as long as you clearly state your views are your OPINIONS and not actual FACTS, nobody will take issue with this.

Facts are facts (until proved otherwise) 

Corn is not junk.
Grain is not junk
Cellulose is not junk

If they were junk (and my definitiion of it in this context would be something of little or no nutritional value) they would not be permitted in commercial dog food in the UK.

Neither is it garbage (although a lot of dogs spend a great deal of time enjoying garbage ie toilet water, poo of various kinds and look pretty good on it)

It is only garbage IN YOUR OPINION.

As you are not a canine nutritionist your views on food have as much weight with many of us as those of your vet have with you. 

IE I would not trust a word you said about diet as you do not have any credibility on the subject.


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Mesotes said:


> There are other things I avoid with both the dog and the kids, so raw-feeding is certainly not the only reason they are healthier than most, IMO.


Your kids are raw-fed too? I do hope you worm them regularly...


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Mesotes said:


> But why would anyone care what I think? Why let a raw-feeder lord it over you, if you are happy with your choice?


Well actually, you're not lording it over us.

We aren't hung up on what we're feeding our dogs. It seems to be you who is becoming a little hysterical.

Feed your dog what you want. None of us really care, but don't try and suggest that we have it all wrong.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Well as long as you clearly state your views are your OPINIONS and not actual FACTS, nobody will take issue with this.
> 
> Facts are facts (until proved otherwise)
> 
> ...


Corn is junk, when you are talking about carnivores. It's actually not all that great for people either. Other grains, also inappropriate. Cellulose is SAWDUST, and is indeed junk when added to pet food or human food.

Of course you wouldn't trust me, you prefer to keep yourself in ignorance about reality when it comes to pet food. To actually pay attention to the things I say, or investigate them, you might have to admit you have been mistaken. I know, I was at that point once a long long time ago. Denial is a powerful emotion.

But don't assume that everyone thinks like you. Plenty want to learn. Plenty more would want to, if they only knew there was something to learn. That's why people like me, who care about these issues, post in these threads and subject ourselves to people like you. : ) It all has to start somewhere.

Some day you might open your eyes. Or maybe not. To each his own.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Mesotes said:


> Because he has never been ill? The only issue he has had is one bout of diarrhea from eating deer poo, cleared up with colloidal silver in two days, and on two occasions he ate a sock which took a couple of days for him to pass, during which time if wasn't feeling too great. Other than that his has always been in perfect health.


My younger dog has never had a single illness or ailment in her life. I honestly don't think she's ever even had a bout of diarrhoea or vomiting. She has only ever had routine health checks and vaccinations. She was 9 years old yesterday. She was the result of an accidental mating, parents not hip/eye/elbow scored, no DNA tests, no background, just a random dog from a "free puppies" sign outside a farm.

Lifelong Royal Canin eater :Shamefullyembarrased

My older dog has had a few problems lately. Hypothyroidism, heart murmur and arthritis. He's really showing his age now. Actually, these things started happening around the time I took him off of his prescription diet. Following your logic of correlation and causation, maybe I should put him back on Royal Canin post haste!


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## teepee1972 (Sep 9, 2015)

I think the difficulty for people who want to do the best for their dog is there are so many conflicting opinions and claims on just about every topic, from the nutritional value of grains, to the pros and cons of a high protein diet. Personally i do prefer named meats however rather than 'animal derivatives' simply because i have no idea what the heck is in there.

This is either the 1st or 2nd best selling uk dogfood... how many would feed their pet on this?


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## teepee1972 (Sep 9, 2015)

Gosh a lot of comments to read

Firstly i think the thread has shown the problems an average pet owner faces when choosing what to feed...so many differing opinions!

I have read so many 'expert' opinions on everything from the digestibility of grain, to ideal protein intake dependent on activity, and there seems to be little consensus.

My personal opinion is that dogs have evolved to eat some grains, as a result of living with humans for so long- so they are not obligate carnivores the way cats are, but i dont think they are as well adapted as say humans are.

As for 'by products' in feed, i can believe there are regulations sure, but i personally prefer to have named ingredients (such as chicken, turkey etc) so i know what im feeding my dog.

Not sure anecdotal evidence helps, we all know someone who smoked 60 a day and lived to 90, but there is little doubt smoking is bad for you.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Cellulose is SAWDUST, and is indeed junk when added to pet food or human food.


http://www.scienceclarified.com/Ca-Ch/Cellulose.html
"Since it is made by all plants, it is probably the most abundant organic compound on Earth."
"For humans, cellulose is also a major source of needed fiber in our diet"

"Despite the fact that humans (and many other animals) cannot digest cellulose (meaning that their digestive systems cannot break it down into its basic constituents), cellulose is nonetheless a very important part of the healthy human diet. This is because it forms a major part of the dietary fiber that we know is important for proper digestion. Since we cannot break cellulose down and it passes through our systems basically unchanged, it acts as what we call bulk or roughage that helps the movements of our intestines. Among mammals, only those that are ruminants (cudchewing animals like cows and horses) can process cellulose. This is because they have special bacteria and microorganisms in their digestive tracts that do it for them. They are then able to absorb the broken-down cellulose and use its sugar as a food source. Fungi are also able to break down cellulose into sugar that they can absorb, and they play a major role in the decomposition (rotting) of wood and other plant material."

http://nutrition.about.com/od/basicnutritionecourse/a/carbos_two.htm

"Cellulose is an insoluble dietary fiber and may also be used as a functional fiber. Cellulose are long straight chains of glucose molecules and are found as the central component in cell walls of plants.

The bacteria in your intestinal tract cannot ferment cellulose well either, so the primary function of cellulose is to increase stool bulk and decrease the time it takes for the fecal material to pass through the colon. Foods that contain large amounts of cellulose include bran, legumes, nuts, peas, roots, cabbage and apple skins".


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Corn is junk, when you are talking about carnivores. It's actually not all that great for people either. Other grains, also inappropriate. Cellulose is SAWDUST, and is indeed junk when added to pet food or human food.
> 
> Of course you wouldn't trust me, you prefer to keep yourself in ignorance about reality when it comes to pet food. To actually pay attention to the things I say, or investigate them, you might have to admit you have been mistaken. I know, I was at that point once a long long time ago. Denial is a powerful emotion.
> 
> ...


YOU say corn is junk, plenty of qualified canine nutritionists disagree with you.
Grains are entirely appropriate for dogs according to many scientists
Cellulose MAY be sawdust indeed, but in the context of dog food it is plant material, entirely appropriate for dogs (and people).

This sort of hysterical, unededucated scare mongering only undermines your credibilty as an advisor on canine nutrition as it demonstrates your lack of knowledge and training in this field.

I am not sure where you got the idea that I do not want to learn?

Would that be because I have deigned to challenge some of your more preposterous assertions?

I have spent the last 60 years of my life learning about lots of things and, more recently, over the last 20 years educating myself and researching canine nutrition from those who have some credentials in this area

Currently in my personal library are the following books on nutrition et al

Caroline Griffith The Best Dog Diet Ever
Christine Zink Dog Health and Nutrition for Dummies
Ian Billinghurst Give Your Dog a Bone
Ian Billinghurst Grow Your Pups with Bone
Ian Billinghurst The Barf Diet
Jocelynn Jacobs Performance Dog Nutrition
Kymythy Schulze Natural Nutrition for Cats and Dogs
Lew Olson Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs
Linda P Case Dog Food Logic
Lowell Ackermann Canine Nutrition
Steve Brown Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet
Sue Johnson Switching to Raw
Tom Lonsdale Raw Meaty Bones
Tom Lonsdale Work Wonders
Val Strong The Dog's Dinner
Black Blacks Veterinary Dictionary
Caroline Ingraham Applied Zoopharmacognosy Canines
Jan Allegretti & Katy Sommers The Complete Holistic Dog Book
Richard Pitcairn Dr Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health in Cats and Dogs
Trevor Turner Veterinary Notes for Dog Owners
Wendy Volhard & Kerry Brown The Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog
Gregory L Tilford & Mary Wulff Tilford All you ever wanted to know about Herbs for Pets
Juliette de Bairacli Levy The Complete Herbal Handbook for the dog and cat
Mary Boughton Herbal Medicine for Dogs

I subscribe to

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/
https://www.b-naturals.com/index.php?main_page=newsletters
http://www.dogaware.com/index.html

to name but a few

I have also attended seminars in canine nutrition delivered by

*M*arge Chandler DVM, MS, MACVSc, DACVN, DACVIM, DECVIM-CA, MRCVS
Dr John Lowe BSc., PhD., CBiol., MSB., RNutr
Nick Thompson BSc (Hons) Path Sci BVM& S, VetMFHom, MRCVS
Dr Jacqueline Boyd
_Christine Zink, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Professor Christopher Day 
Dr Mark Elliott MRCVS Vet MF Hom
Vicky Payne BVetMed MRCVS, 
Caroline Ingraham_

_to name but a few.

You may have noticed that some of the above are (shock horror) vets, many of whom advocate raw feeding, in fact there is a list in the UK where you can locate Raw Feeding Vets

http://www.rawfoodvets.com/vets

They all have something in common, they all have the relevant skills, knowledge, ability, training and experiences to speak with some authority and indeed SCIENCE about canine nutrition and health

I TRUST science, _

I am dedicated to ensuring that people obtain the facts and science regarding canine nurtition (including the information that in some areas the words " we don't know" apply) which is why, people like me, who care about these issues, post in these threads and subject ourselves to people like you. : ) It all has to start somewhere. Some day you might open your eyes. Or maybe not. To each his own

If your prefer to keep yourself in ignorance about reality when it comes to pet food and fail to cite the sources of your allegations, fail to actually pay attention to the things that scientists say, or investigate them, you might have to admit you are mistaken.. Denial is a powerful emotion.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

lorilu said:


> Corn is junk, when you are talking about carnivores. It's actually not all that great for people either. Other grains, also inappropriate. Cellulose is SAWDUST, and is indeed junk when added to pet food or human food.


If you genuinely care about people educating themselves about nutrition, I feel it's worth pointing out that some of your statments are just not helpful to that end. What you're doing is the opposite of education. You are confusing the issue by stating your own opinions as facts.

For people like me, who know very little about canine nutrition and who like to come to this forum to learn from others who are more knowledgeable, it is sometimes very difficult to weed out the opinions and find the real, factual information. It's one thing to say 'I believe' or 'in my opinion', but to state something like 'corn is junk' or cellulose is junk' without any kind of reasoning or back up just comes across as meaningless.

You're obviously passionate about this subject, and I do agree with some of your points. I have disagreed with vets about food myself, and I turned down prescription food once (for a diabetic cat) in favour of something else. But I always try to make those kinds of decisions based on facts.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

You people just go ahead and stay in your little bubble. : ) You want to feed your carnivorous pets corn and cellulose, have at it. Enjoy the giant poops, puking and ultimate vet bills too.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2015)

lorilu said:


> You people just go ahead and stay in your little bubble. : ) You want to feed your carnivorous pets corn and cellulose, have at it. Enjoy the giant poops, puking and ultimate vet bills too.


LOL so basically unless people agree with your opinions on feeding their dogs, they're going to make their dogs sick, they're stuck in a bubble and refusing to learn?

I feed my dogs according to what works best for me and them. Sometimes that's kibble, sometimes that's home cooked, sometimes that's raw. Sometimes I drop the ball and there is no dog food in the house and they eat oatmeal and a raw egg for dinner. So far they're still alive and from what I can tell healthier than a lot of dogs who suffer with all sorts of issues. 
My kids share their popcorn and corn chips with the dogs, I guess I'll go tell them that if the dogs die it's their fault for giving them corn


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> You people just go ahead and stay in your little bubble. : ) You want to feed your carnivorous pets corn and cellulose, have at it. Enjoy the giant poops, puking and ultimate vet bills too.


O dear there is really no need to throw your teddy out of the pram because nobody will play with you. 

I note that the science to back up your claims is conspicuous by its absence.

Science is always moving on and some of us move with it.

I think you will find that raw feeding and giant poops, puking and ultimate vet bills are not mutually exclusive. 

This immature response surely only demonstrates that you are guilty of the ignorance you accuse others of?

My mind is open (although not vacant) if you can provide meaningful scientific evidence (ie a study involving more than one dog with a control group) to support your "arguments".


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

ouesi said:


> LOL so basically unless people agree with your opinions on feeding their dogs, they're going to make their dogs sick, they're stuck in a bubble and refusing to learn?
> 
> I feed my dogs according to what works best for me and them. Sometimes that's kibble, sometimes that's home cooked, sometimes that's raw. Sometimes I drop the ball and there is no dog food in the house and they eat oatmeal and a raw egg for dinner. So far they're still alive and from what I can tell healthier than a lot of dogs who suffer with all sorts of issues.
> My kids share their popcorn and corn chips with the dogs, I guess I'll go tell them that if the dogs die it's their fault for giving them corn


If someone posts numerous links to prove they are "educated" and still insists that corn and cellulose are appropriate to feed a dog...what else can I conclude than they want to live in a bubble where everything is "fine"?

It's not opinion, it's fact that dogs were designed by nature to eat a certain type of diet. "Vet" diets do not, in any way, resemble an appropriate diet for dogs. Dog gets sick from eating a crappy cheap bagged food all it's life. Vet says dog has "pancreatitis" or diabetes or some other disease quite possibly brought on by the dog being "fine" on this awful food all his life. Vet then puts the dog on another food, equally crappy but much much more expensive because it has the word "prescription" in the name, and the dog struggles on for a few more months or years. This, in my opinion, is malpractice. Or conflict of interest. Whichever way you want to look at it.

As for the original topic of this thread: Dog is 17 years old, struggling with arthritis, been on a decent diet all his life because the owner pays attention to things like that. Vet wants to put dog on a "Prescription" food that will most likely mess up his digestion for what ever (hopefully long) time the dog has left. Dog will feel like crap in the gut _and_ in his joints. Keeps him going back to the vet doesn't it? If not for check ups, for more of this miracle food that does no good at all for the dog. Why didn't vet recommend supplements instead? Why didn't the vet give advice of safe exercise, massage, things the owner can do to make dog more comfortable, other than feeding corn and cellulose with "joint supplements" baked right in?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> If someone posts numerous links to prove they are "educated" and still insists that corn and cellulose are appropriate to feed a dog...what else can I conclude than they want to live in a bubble where everything is "fine"?
> 
> It's not opinion, it's fact that dogs were designed by nature to eat a certain type of diet. "Vet" diets do not, in any way, resemble an appropriate diet for dogs. Dog gets sick from eating a crappy cheap bagged food all it's life. Vet says dog has "pancreatitis" or diabetes or some other disease quite possibly brought on by the dog being "fine" on this awful food all his life. Vet then puts the dog on another food, equally crappy but much much more expensive because it has the word "prescription" in the name, and the dog struggles on for a few more months or years. This, in my opinion, is malpractice. Or conflict of interest. Whichever way you want to look at it.
> 
> As for the original topic of this thread: Dog is 17 years old, struggling with arthritis, been on a decent diet all his life because the owner pays attention to things like that. Vet wants to put dog on a "Prescription" food that will most likely mess up his digestion for what ever (hopefully long) time the dog has left. Dog will feel like crap in the gut _and_ in his joints. Keeps him going back to the vet doesn't it? If not for check ups, for more of this miracle food that does no good at all for the dog. Why didn't vet recommend supplements instead? Why didn't the vet give advice of safe exercise, massage, things the owner can do to make dog more comfortable, other than feeding corn and cellulose with "joint supplements" baked right in?


If someone who posts numerous outlandish statements to prove that they are "educated" without providing sufficient scientific evidence for their allegations what else can one conclude then they want to live in a bubble where everything they believe is true?

You keep stating your opinions, where are the facts?

A lot of animals were designed to consume a particular diet and they evolved to eat different ones, as dogs have.

Dogs have been eating grains since they first became domesticated thousands of years ago as their first role was as human waste digestors. 

Read the science.

I wonder how many vets all around the world have been sued for malpractice or struck off due to (according to you) prescribing treatment in order to increase business?


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2015)

lorilu said:


> If someone posts numerous links to prove they are "educated" and still insists that corn and cellulose are appropriate to feed a dog...what else can I conclude than they want to live in a bubble where everything is "fine"?


IDK, I personally can conclude a whole lot of different things from that. And not one of them is that the person lives in a bubble. 
Like I said, my dogs eat popcorn and corn chips, try telling them those aren't appropriate foods to feed a dog 
And the truth is, in some cases grains are appropriate to feed dogs. Not all dogs do well on raw, not all dogs do well on grain free foods, so you feed what is appropriate for your individual dog.
I'm lucky to have dogs with iron guts who can eat just about anything and be just fine. Not everyone is equally lucky and I hate seeing dogs subjected to a diet that is inappropriate for that individual but the owner sticks to it because of food nazis that tell them the *only* thing they should be feeding their dog is XYZ.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> If someone who posts numerous outlandish statements to prove that they are "educated" without providing sufficient scientific evidence for their allegations what else can one conclude then they want to live in a bubble where everything they believe is true?
> 
> You keep stating your opinions, where are the facts?
> 
> ...


Who do you think funds all this "science" you think is so wonderful that it tells you cellulose and corn are appropriate foods for dogs? Think about that why don't you. Who has the money for this kind of "science and research"?. Pet food manufacturers, that's who. LOL



ouesi said:


> IDK, I personally can conclude a whole lot of different things from that. And not one of them is that the person lives in a bubble.
> Like I said, my dogs eat popcorn and corn chips, try telling them those aren't appropriate foods to feed a dog
> And the truth is, in some cases grains are appropriate to feed dogs. Not all dogs do well on raw, not all dogs do well on grain free foods, so you feed what is appropriate for your individual dog.
> I'm lucky to have dogs with iron guts who can eat just about anything and be just fine. Not everyone is equally lucky and I hate seeing dogs subjected to a diet that is inappropriate for that individual but the owner sticks to it because of food nazis that tell them the *only* thing they should be feeding their dog is XYZ.


I have not ever said anything about what someone "should" feed their dog. Only what they "should not" feed. A piece of, or even a child's sized fistful of, popcorn given to a dog on occasion is not the same thing as feeding a dog a hugely inappropriate diet meal after meal, day after day, year after year. Let's keep some perspective here.

I too have a pet with an "iron gut". Actually I often joke that she has the digestion of a goat (oh the irony!) But that doesn't mean I am going to feed her what a goat eats, just because she is "fine" when she steals and eats a paper towel soaked in grease, or a half a loaf of whole wheat bread, with no apparent negative effects.

No, I feed her as close as I can (within my own limits) to what NATURE designed her to eat, not what the SCIENCE of pet food paid researches tell me to feed her.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Who do you think funds all this "science" you think is so wonderful that it tells you cellulose and corn are appropriate foods for dogs? Think about that why don't you. Who has the money for this kind of "science and research"?. Pet food manufacturers, that's who. LOL
> 
> I have not ever said anything about what someone "should" feed their dog. Only what they "should not" feed. A piece of, or even a child's sized fistful of, popcorn given to a dog on occasion is not the same thing as feeding a dog a hugely inappropriate diet meal after meal, day after day, year after year. Let's keep some perspective here.
> 
> ...


Here we go again, I do not have to THINK who funds the research I KNOW who has funded much of the research I get my information from and a lot of it is independent but even if it is funded by the food manufacturers (which much is) they still have to adhere to the normal regulations about reporting etc.

A simple but obviously not well known fact.................


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## teepee1972 (Sep 9, 2015)

The one thing i will say about raw feeding, i am sure it can work and dogs can thrive on it.

But i think it can also be dangerous - when an owner does not know what he/she is doing (i dont mean anyone here)

That would be my main deterrent, i would not be confident i was dealing with the risk of parasites appropriately or that
the food was providing all the required vitamins and minerals.

But each to their own of course 

The truth is that most pet owners probably feed whatever is in the supermarkets?. Which is pedigree and bakers in the UK.

Whilst i can believe dogs can handle grains (but they should not be the main nutrient in my opinion) i personally would not
feed my dog bakers for instance as i dont like the unnamed derivatives and dont want to trust regulations 

I also dont understand the need to colour the food brightly when im pretty sure dogs have limited ability to distinguish between colours


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

teepee1972 said:


> The one thing i will say about raw feeding, i am sure it can work and dogs can thrive on it.
> 
> But i think it can also be dangerous - when an owner does not know what he/she is doing (i dont mean anyone here)
> 
> ...


There is a great deal of information now on how many self styled experts are not providing the correct nutrients for their dogs as well as AAFCO and FEDIEF revising their previous nutrition guidelines.

I am not sure why you would not trust regulations? Perhaps we should have a totally unregulated pet food industry?

There is no NEED to colour food brightly for dogs, only for owners, the same way food is coloured for us to make it look more appetising.

The point is that there is plenty of choice out there for dogs and owners, more every day, and for people who are on limited incomes they can be assured that commerical pet food meets these regulations (which in the UK are stricter than a lot of people actually believe) and thus their dogs RER (resting energy requirements).

A little more thought is often needed re performance animals of course


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## teepee1972 (Sep 9, 2015)

"I am not sure why you would not trust regulations? Perhaps we should have a totally unregulated pet food industry?"

No thats not what im saying, it is my belief that companies are geared to make the maximum profit (understandable)

and therefore if i see 'animal derivatives' in the ingredient list, my instinct tells me it is the cheapest ingredient they could source whilst staying within the law.
They might even change the ingredients regularly depending on what is mostly cheaply available at the time...i dont know.

If a product says 'salmon 70%' - then of course i still dont know the quality of the fish used, but- i do know which is used and the quantity.
Hence i would rather have properly named ingredients than place my trust that quality ingredients are being used due to regulations.

Its just a personal preference of course, and funnily enough i was discussing cat food with a friend not long ago, she feeds it applaws - and considers go-cat, whiskers etc as practically poison, yet- we dont see cats dropping dead everywhere.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2015)

lorilu said:


> I have not ever said anything about what someone "should" feed their dog. Only what they "should not" feed. A piece of, or even a child's sized fistful of, popcorn given to a dog on occasion is not the same thing as feeding a dog a hugely inappropriate diet meal after meal, day after day, year after year. Let's keep some perspective here.
> 
> I too have a pet with an "iron gut". Actually I often joke that she has the digestion of a goat (oh the irony!) But that doesn't mean I am going to feed her what a goat eats, just because she is "fine" when she steals and eats a paper towel soaked in grease, or a half a loaf of whole wheat bread, with no apparent negative effects.
> 
> No, I feed her as close as I can (within my own limits) to what NATURE designed her to eat, not what the SCIENCE of pet food paid researches tell me to feed her.


Yes, definitely some perspective is needed...
Nature has designed our dogs to do many things that we don't allow of them. Nature also kills dogs who are not vaccinated against rabies and parvo, Nature starves dogs who don't know how to scavenge and hunt and nature kills dogs who can't properly digest scavenged foods and who need a special diet to survive. Science saves those dogs.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I'd rather have a food that suits my dog


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## Tamberlane (Jul 8, 2014)

lorilu said:


> If someone posts numerous links to prove they are "educated" and still insists that corn and cellulose are appropriate to feed a dog...what else can I conclude than they want to live in a bubble where everything is "fine"?
> 
> It's not opinion, it's fact that dogs were designed by nature to eat a certain type of diet. "Vet" diets do not, in any way, resemble an appropriate diet for dogs. Dog gets sick from eating a crappy cheap bagged food all it's life. Vet says dog has "pancreatitis" or diabetes or some other disease quite possibly brought on by the dog being "fine" on this awful food all his life. Vet then puts the dog on another food, equally crappy but much much more expensive because it has the word "prescription" in the name, and the dog struggles on for a few more months or years. This, in my opinion, is malpractice. Or conflict of interest. Whichever way you want to look at it.
> 
> As for the original topic of this thread: Dog is 17 years old, struggling with arthritis, been on a decent diet all his life because the owner pays attention to things like that. Vet wants to put dog on a "Prescription" food that will most likely mess up his digestion for what ever (hopefully long) time the dog has left. Dog will feel like crap in the gut _and_ in his joints. Keeps him going back to the vet doesn't it? If not for check ups, for more of this miracle food that does no good at all for the dog. Why didn't vet recommend supplements instead? Why didn't the vet give advice of safe exercise, massage, things the owner can do to make dog more comfortable, other than feeding corn and cellulose with "joint supplements" baked right in?


Yup I went to collage for 5 years to learn to poision dogs and make my boss more money alright.
I spent all that time as a teenager studying and seeing practice in my spare time so I could go into practice and fleece people for money and harm dogs so we can keep making lots and lots of money.....really...i mean really???and people wonder why vets burn out and get compassion fatigue.

Some of your other points made good sense....but statements like the above make it very difficult to take you seriously.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

I fed my usually raw fed dogs chicken soup yesterday. And they share a slice of toast every morning. Definitely not houlier-than-thou raw feeders over here!


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

lorilu said:


> No, I feed her as close as I can (within my own limits) to what NATURE designed her to eat, not what the SCIENCE of pet food paid researches tell me to feed her.


You do realise dogs are omnivores, not obligate carnivores like cats, right?

And if you're feeding your dog vegetables along with their premium, pathogen-annihilating meat diet, I suggest you go Google "cellulose".


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> YOU say corn is junk, plenty of qualified canine nutritionists disagree with you.
> Grains are entirely appropriate for dogs according to many scientists
> Cellulose MAY be sawdust indeed, but in the context of dog food it is plant material, entirely appropriate for dogs (and people).
> 
> ...


Stoppit, Smokey! . . .

. . . you are making me love you . . .


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> My kids share their popcorn and corn chips with the dogs,* I guess I'll go tell them that if the dogs die it's their fault for giving them corn*


Guilt! The gift that keeps on giving . . .


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

lostbear said:


> Stoppit, Smokey! . . .
> 
> . . . you are making me love you . . .


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

rona said:


>


The words you never thought you'd read . . . :Jawdrop


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

lorilu said:


> "Vet" diets do not, in any way, resemble an appropriate diet for dogs. Dog gets sick from eating a crappy cheap bagged food all it's life. Vet says dog has "pancreatitis" or diabetes or some other disease quite possibly brought on by the dog being "fine" on this awful food all his life. Vet then puts the dog on another food, equally crappy but much much more expensive because it has the word "prescription" in the name, and the dog struggles on for a few more months or years. This, in my opinion, is malpractice. Or conflict of interest. Whichever way you want to look at it.


Wow. Completely missed this little gem amongst the rest of the hysterical scaremongering. Do you know anything at all about nutrition or medicine?

As for vets deliberately perpetuating pets' illnesses to squeeze even more money out of their clients...well how on earth else are they going to pay off the incredible debts from 5-6 years at vet school? Or at least pay for that second home in the Cotswolds...they need to put that spare Royal Canin television somewhere!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

shamykebab said:


> Wow. Completely missed this little gem amongst the rest of the hysterical scaremongering. Do you know anything at all about nutrition or medicine?
> 
> As for vets deliberately perpetuating pets' illnesses to squeeze even more money out of their clients...well how on earth else are they going to pay off the incredible debts from 5-6 years at vet school? Or at least pay for that second home in the Cotswolds...they need to put that spare Royal Canin television somewhere!


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

Sorry, entirely tongue in cheek!


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

lorilu said:


> If someone posts numerous links to prove they are "educated" and still insists that corn and cellulose are appropriate to feed a dog...what else can I conclude than they want to live in a bubble where everything is "fine"?
> 
> It's not opinion, it's fact that dogs were designed by nature to eat a certain type of diet. "Vet" diets do not, in any way, resemble an appropriate diet for dogs. Dog gets sick from eating a crappy cheap bagged food all it's life. Vet says dog has "pancreatitis" or diabetes or some other disease quite possibly brought on by the dog being "fine" on this awful food all his life. Vet then puts the dog on another food, equally crappy but much much more expensive because it has the word "prescription" in the name, and the dog struggles on for a few more months or years. This, in my opinion, is malpractice. Or conflict of interest. Whichever way you want to look at it.
> 
> As for the original topic of this thread: Dog is 17 years old, struggling with arthritis, been on a decent diet all his life because the owner pays attention to things like that. Vet wants to put dog on a "Prescription" food that will most likely mess up his digestion for what ever (hopefully long) time the dog has left. Dog will feel like crap in the gut _and_ in his joints. Keeps him going back to the vet doesn't it? If not for check ups, for more of this miracle food that does no good at all for the dog. Why didn't vet recommend supplements instead? Why didn't the vet give advice of safe exercise, massage, things the owner can do to make dog more comfortable, other than feeding corn and cellulose with "joint supplements" baked right in?




Do you smoke cannabis? The level of paranoia is incredible!


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2015)

teepee1972 said:


> At 17 i guess its to be expected, its hard to see them get frail when you have had them from a puppy though


Teepee, I was going to say that for our elderly dane daily supplementation of powdered MSM helped keep him in great shape. He was a great dane so I was actually using a horse supplement, but I know you can get it for dogs as well. Just sprinkled it on his food. It definitely made a difference for him.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> Well as long as you clearly state your views are your OPINIONS and not actual FACTS, nobody will take issue with this.
> 
> Facts are facts (until proved otherwise)
> 
> ...


Late to the party but I have to comment on the above.

Most of the grains used in pet food are refined, processed, milled (call it what you like) & this removes almost everything that is good from that grain... the bran (fibre) & germ are lost along with many vitamins. What is left is flour. The reason for this is that coarsely ground whole grains spoil far too quickly to be of any use in the pet food industry who buy very much in bulk, the stripped flour will last for months. The issue is that in refining the grain it has been changed from a complex to pretty much a simple carb, very easily digested & producing a "sugar surge" instead of the steady release a whole grain would provide.

I agree with smokeybear that dogs have "evolved" to be able to assimilate properly prepared carbs but this is where I have a major problem with some foods & I'll use the old favourite Bakers complete to illustrate... I'll bet they use refined flour 
Protein 21.0%
Fat content 10.0%
Crude ash 8.0%
Crude fibres 2.5%
Carbohydrates 47.0%

So almost half of the food is carbs being fed to an animal that requires absolutely NO carbs in it's diet at all if fed enough animal protein/fats.
Carbs are processed into only one thing, glucose which if not used is then stored as fat. It has no real nutritional value whatsoever, just calories. There are no limits or requirements on carbs in dog food as long as everything else is legal.
That's not to say that carbs (grains) aren't useful, they can be a good source of energy but to say they are not a cheap filler when used to excess is untrue... that's exactly what they are!

Just a couple of other points...

I worked for several years as an analyst for a well known pet food manufacturer & I can say that...
Tumours or diseased tissue were not added to pet food.
That manufacturers do indeed buy the cheapest available ingredients so, unless stated, you have no idea what you are buying.
That manufacturers work to the minimum they can get away with while complying with the law.


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## teepee1972 (Sep 9, 2015)

Good post blackadder, pretty much what my own instincts told me, which is why i only like to buy products with clearly named ingredients and a named meat source first (and even there some companies confuse the matter)

@ouesi we have her on supplements right now (joint force) which contain MSM, we have been considering synoquin (glocosamine, msm, chrondontin and dexahan) but as far as i can tell dexahan is just krill oil so im not sure it will help.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

teepee1972 said:


> Good post blackadder, pretty much what my own instincts told me, which is why i only like to buy products with clearly named ingredients and a named meat source first (and even there some companies confuse the matter)
> 
> @ouesi we have her on supplements right now (joint force) which contain MSM, we have been considering synoquin (glocosamine, msm, chrondontin and dexahan) but as far as i can tell dexahan is just krill oil so im not sure it will help.


Krill oil is an excellent anti-inflammatory, it probably will help and certainly can't hurt. (Krill is also part of my own effective anti-inflammatory regimen along with the (raw organic) ACV.)

There are other treatments too of course, cold laser therapy is one option, as are adequan injections. One other thought is swim therapy, to get her exercise and build muscle with minimal stress on her joints.


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

When our dog had pancreatitis, our vet recommended Chappie but as its important to us that our pets have as best a food as we can provide and we didn't feel this was one of the better brands, we went with others. She's still here seven years later. I don't see that your vet should be offended just because you don't take their advice on nutrition. Go with your own instincts otherwise you won't be happy and possibly neither will your dog.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

And let’s not forget, just because a vet recommends something, doesn’t mean they’re saying you *have* to do it.
Our vet recommended puppy food to put weight on one of our rescues, I told her we were feeding X brand and adding calories with add ons, she was perfectly fine with that.
I’ve had vets recommend a certain medication, I ask if X will work too, sometimes they say sure, other times they’ll explain further their reason for recommending this particular brand of medication. It’s really okay to have a conversation with your vet and develop that relationship where they understand that you are interested and you are willing to educate yourself. 
Most of the clients they see just don’t care and want someone else to do the thinking for them when it comes to their pet’s health, so vets are used to short and sweet and this will do. My vet knows me by now and always offers several options and explains them and listens to my questions and suggestions too.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

ouesi said:


> And let's not forget, just because a vet recommends something, doesn't mean they're saying you *have* to do it.
> Our vet recommended puppy food to put weight on one of our rescues, I told her we were feeding X brand and adding calories with add ons, she was perfectly fine with that.
> I've had vets recommend a certain medication, I ask if X will work too, sometimes they say sure, other times they'll explain further their reason for recommending this particular brand of medication. It's really okay to have a conversation with your vet and develop that relationship where they understand that you are interested and you are willing to educate yourself.
> Most of the clients they see just don't care and want someone else to do the thinking for them when it comes to their pet's health, so vets are used to short and sweet and this will do. My vet knows me by now and always offers several options and explains them and listens to my questions and suggestions too.


I have a very good relationship with my vet. I can discuss and ask for advice on anything related to my dogs and he'll come up with options and suggestions. Recently Georgina developed a limp in one of her front legs and I asked him if there was any alternative to Rimadyl, which when she'd been prescribed it on a previous occasion had made her hyperactive (and nearly drove me crazy)! He was very understanding and gave her something different (can't remember what it was) which did the job just as well and didn't drive either her or me scatty! The other thing I really appreciate is that knowing Georgina goes into meltdown the moment she gets into the waiting room, he'll often send one of the vet techs to help me calm her down.And even though Gwylim's not needed to be seen by him yet, he's been introduced to and petted by all the staff Now that to me is personal service. .


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

BlackadderUK said:


> Late to the party but I have to comment on the above.
> 
> Most of the grains used in pet food are refined, processed, milled (call it what you like) & this removes almost everything that is good from that grain... the bran (fibre) & germ are lost along with many vitamins. What is left is flour. The reason for this is that coarsely ground whole grains spoil far too quickly to be of any use in the pet food industry who buy very much in bulk, the stripped flour will last for months. The issue is that in refining the grain it has been changed from a complex to pretty much a simple carb, very easily digested & producing a "sugar surge" instead of the steady release a whole grain would provide.
> 
> ...


Thanks and we have to remember that commercial dog food really came about by people wanting to know what to do (and make money out of) the by products produced after processing foods/nutrients for human food.

There are a variety of foods which suit all pockets, not everyone can afford not only to feed premium foods but also are not in a position to buy in bulk, have it delivered or get to large pet food stores.

Anything "in excess" is potentially detrimental including oxygen and water.

We must not forget that for centuries sheepdogs did a full day's work (and slept outside) fed only on porridge! (Not that I am saying that is the optimum diet for any dog)


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03949370.2015.1076526


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03949370.2015.1076526


I don't see what this link adds to the discussion??


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

shamykebab said:


> You do realise dogs are omnivores, not obligate carnivores like cats, right?


Depends what you mean by omnivore. Hippos, Cows and deer can just as easily be considered omnivores if you take it literally. Deer are known to eat birds. Youtube has a video of a cow chasing and eating a chicken. Hippos can have canabilistic tendencies. Everyone still prefers to label them as herbivores, partly as marketing food to the general public has never been a driving force.

When talking about dogs, I prefer hypercarnivore.. primarily meat eater as omnivore is too vague to be anything meaningful. In addition, certain breeds are also known to not always be able to manufacture enough taurine, like cats which is why some foods now also add additional taurine.

I suppose I could link in Iams with https://www.iams.com/pet-health/dog-life-stages/understanding-animal-based-proteins-in-dog-foods .. I think the interesting line is:


> So although dogs may be classified as omnivores, they are best fed as carnivores.


The other thing to consider is pet food is processed. Processing actually makes digestion easier and allows nutrients to be digested when they otherwise wouldn't be. Give my dogs raw carrots, I'll get carrot chunks out the other end. Give them pureed or even cooked carrots and you will not notice.


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