# Dutch Gag



## RachJeremy

Hi, my horse is currently ridden in a plain eggbutt snaffle. However asking him to accept the contact and round into an outline is a heck of a workout and he does become quite heavy on the hands. I've tried a lungee bungee training aid, both during lunge work and ridden, but he does resist it. And seeing as he needs muscle on his back, i need to work him properly, granted he will accept the contact and work in an outline, but like said, it's hard work. 
To top it off, he's very strong sometimes out hacking or once you start canter work in the school, and several times i've had no brakes and no means of stopping no matter what i do, and have to resort in sharply turning circles, which i don't like doing, before he broncs off. He's never actually managed to get me off, and i'm not worried about that, i'm just worried about it becoming a habit. 

Once we get more daylight i am going to start riding down to a local school and ride in there to try and get him working properly, as at the moment he only gets ridden 2-3 times a week, and only hacking due to the fact when we ride we aren't allowed to hire the school (not allowed before 12pm or after 4pm, and not allowed on weekends either). So he's not doing much. And he's very fresh and does try to take off a lot when we get to bridleways. 

I was thinking of investing in a dutch gag, as by the looks of the bit, it works on poll pressure? I'm guessing anyway, i'm no expert on bits, but i know it's a bit stronger because of that leverage. I'm soft with my hands anyway, i'm not a 'yank and pull' sort of person when i ride, i like to keep a good contact that isn't tight and often ride Boycie on a lose contact out hacking when he's behaving. But i was wondering if the dutch gag because of the way it works would help in getting Boycie to work in an outline more than the snaffle, as he does know how to work in an outline, but due to not being asked to work in one for about 6 years, he now evades it and tries not to work, when really it is for his benefit. I have had lessons on him and had instructors suggest getting a bit which could help, seeing as most of my riding which is asking him to come onto the bit, which i normally ride like and i usually get an outline unless the horse doesn't know what i'm asking, then it might take a while... With Boycie he fights it, and we want him to work in it and be relaxed in it as well, as sometimes when you ask, he tightens up and becomes tense if you pick up too much contact.

Any thoughts? Would it be a good idea to invest in a dutch gag? I have ridden with them before and on several different horses, so it's not like i don't know what i'm buying. I used to work with horses and i know how to ride, ask for outlines ect. But i'm asking for help seeing as my horse evades it so much...
I'm also aware he should work in one for too long, but asking him to hold that contact even for 5 minutes or less, is very challenging. And he can do it.


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## smokeybear

I am assuming you have had an equine dentist out first to rule out any issues with his mouth before considering a change?


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## RachJeremy

smokeybear said:


> I am assuming you have had an equine dentist out first to rule out any issues with his mouth before considering a change?


Yer, he had his teeth checked about 3 months ago. Has one out every 6 months for his teeth. And we've checked everything, he has vet checks often too, so not his back. The vet agrees with what we're doing and what we plan on doing with him. But trust me, we wouldn't be working him if anything was wrong, and if something was wrong we'd know. I'm not a completely stupid horse owner that people point fingers at and assume the worst. Which i'm guessing you did by the fact you put a question mark at the end and actually didn't answer my main question about whether my horse might work better in a dutch gag or any other bit you can suggest might help with him starting to carry himself as most of the time the snaffle just isn't strong enough to hold him, so a stronger bit could be a start? I'm asking advice from people who might know more than i do. If it was my choice, he'd be working in an outline in his current bit, and not be so strong willed and evading working in an outline, however this isn't the case.

But like said in my post. I have worked with horses for 3+ years, not including my time spent at college studying equine and management. These years have not been wasted, and believe me, if i suspected he was in pain, which i know my horse, i know when he's in pain and at any given point he is or has been in pain the vet is called immediately. As we are responsible owners, we care about the horse and his welfare. However part of his welfare is to be ridden properly and be happy at the same time. However he is avoiding work.

It might just be he needs more work in the school so that it becomes boring and he starts listening. However it could be he just needs a different bit for schooling... But that's my question really.

I've known horses to be schooled in snaffles but hacked out in gags, and even the other way around because they're stronger in the school or need more control when being worked.

So answers are much appreciated. 

(please also note, none of what i've said above was meant in a rude nature, it's the just way i am and defending myself from getting the abuse i often get in this forum and the reason i've left many times is because of that abuse. I feel if i explain myself more people might just understand. But none of what i said was meant in a nasty, rude or aggressive nature)


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## Lurcherlad

As you say he has been checked over and his teeth are sound, etc. the only thing I would add is this:

I used to ride my mare in a mullen mouthed Pelham with double reins. That way, I rode almost entirely on the top rein which I understood gave her a mild bit and she would soften and accept happily.

Out hacking it gave me the added option of the bottom rein if she got the wind up her tail on a canter or gallop. Obviously, this still has to be used with gentle hands  

This bit comes in a variety of mouthpieces, metal, rubber - a variety of length of side bars, kerb chains, etc. so offers a very wide set of options within the bit.

I found that this bit gave me the confidence of keeping safe out on hacks and the upshot of that was that I rode better with much less tension, etc.

I certainly believe that a stronger bit, in the right hands, can be kinder than a softer bit in harsh hands.

Of course, there is no substitute for some quality teaching IME


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## smokeybear

Well I have been riding some time, ie over 40 years and got my BHS Stage 3 blah blah blah to put my view into context.

Personally if I would use a Dutch Gag, you can of course increase/decrease the severity by movin the reins up and down, there are some horses I would not ride in a snaffle and TBH I do not find snaffles that kind in many cases as they are often ill fitting, the wroing type and result in other issues.

HTH


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## RachJeremy

Lurcherlad said:


> As you say he has been checked over and his teeth are sound, etc. the only thing I would add is this:
> 
> I used to ride my mare in a mullen mouthed Pelham with double reins. That way, I rode almost entirely on the top rein which I understood gave her a mild bit and she would soften and accept happily.
> 
> Out hacking it gave me the added option of the bottom rein if she got the wind up her tail on a canter or gallop. Obviously, this still has to be used with gentle hands
> 
> This bit comes in a variety of mouthpieces, metal, rubber - a variety of length of side bars, kerb chains, etc. so offers a very wide set of options within the bit.
> 
> I found that this bit gave me the confidence of keeping safe out on hacks and the upshot of that was that I rode better with much less tension, etc.
> 
> I certainly believe that a stronger bit, in the right hands, can be kinder than a softer bit in harsh hands.
> 
> Of course, there is no substitute for some quality teaching IME


I do agree with your last statement. I'm sure he will learn how to hold himself, it just seems like such hard work and i keep seeing people ride in the Dutch Gag, or bubble gag as they call it and the horse picks up an outline easily and i've heard he might go better in one... But i'm not 100% sure... i'm tempted to try him properly in one. But i need to buy one first.


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## RachJeremy

smokeybear said:


> Well I have been riding some time, ie over 40 years and got my BHS Stage 3 blah blah blah to put my view into context.
> 
> Personally if I would use a Dutch Gag, you can of course increase/decrease the severity by movin the reins up and down, there are some horses I would not ride in a snaffle and TBH I do not find snaffles that kind in many cases as they are often ill fitting, the wroing type and result in other issues.
> 
> HTH


Exactly, a snaffle can be just as bad. No bit is really without problems. I know the thinner the bar of the bit (if that makes sense?) the more chance it will hurt the mouth on the horse, the thicker the kinder it is. 
I don't want my horse to get a sore mouth, but i'm not rough with my hands, so i'm not too worried about riding in a stronger bit. As i'd try and make it comfortable for him too. If i found it causing him discomfort i would stop.


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## Elles

What those guys say. :thumbup1:

I ride all 3 of my horses in a hard rubber pelham with an elastic curb and two reins, but I train with a lady called Heather Moffett (Enlightened Equitation) who taught me how to use the pelham as a remedial bit, starting with work on my seat, getting on for 20 years ago now. Heather's work wouldn't be considered traditional/normal. 2 of my horses are fine in a snaffle bit too, but one only likes the stability and mouthpiece of his pelham. 

Not all horses find a thick mouthpiece kind, as it can be too much for their mouth and is uncomfortable for them.

Personally I wouldn't use a gag for schooling, as I can't really see any reason for it. If he is lacking muscle he could be taking off due to losing balance. A bit like us running down a hill and getting faster, but if he doesn't like his particular snaffle and fights it, it could be worth looking into different mouthpieces even if you don't change to a leverage or curb bit. 

Good luck!


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## Rafa

If I were you, I would invest my money in some lessons with a reputable teacher, rather than in a new bit.

I know you say you have worked with horses for 3 years, but you are still relatively inexperienced and I think lessons would be more beneficial to you and your horse than would be a new bit.


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## RachJeremy

Sweety said:


> If I were you, I would invest my money in some lessons with a reputable teacher, rather than in a new bit.
> 
> I know you say you have worked with horses for 3 years, but you are still relatively inexperienced and I think lessons would be more beneficial to you and your horse than would be a new bit.


I get lessons. At the moment i don't as we can't use the school. But i still get lessons, as obviously you never stop learning. But i wouldn't say i'm "inexperienced" as even though i lack years on some people, i still spent near 2 years teaching people to ride. I have taught my OH to ride and even the instructor who teaches me said i've taught him well. Bear it in mind, i have been around horses since i was 4 years old. I'm now 22. That's a long time really and i've helped with many horses with ridden work. I'm just stumped when it comes to my own and trying to make a decision about which bit he'll work best in. Nothing to do with my riding really, i just feel he might work a bit better in a different bit. 
But i've had several lessons on my horse, from two different instructors, both of which have even suggested looking into various bits to see if he'll work better in them.


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## Rafa

I understand, but I have owned horses for thirty years now and have taught people to ride, but that is different than teaching someone how to get the best from their own horse.

You say you can't get him to take up a contact? The problem may well be nothing to do with his bit. By considering a Dutch Gag, is that because you think it will make him drop his head?


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## Rafa

Sorry, I just meant to say as well, a Dutch Gag is a very, very severe bit and used wrongly, can cause damage to the poll.

I understand what you say that you're not 'heavy handed', but those bits really need to be used by the very experienced.


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## Wiz201

I can imagine how horses find certain mouthpieces and bits better than others, some cobs actually go better in pelhams than snaffles due to their head shapes. You could even try a bitless bridle, see if he relaxes with no bit in his mouth? I rode a welsh cob with one on and she was lovely to ride.


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## smokeybear

And let us not forget that some bitless bridles are EXTREMELY severe.


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## Wiz201

Depends which type you get though


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## smokeybear

Wiz201 said:


> Depends which type you get though


That is why I qualified my answer with the word SOME.


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## Rafa

I can't help wondering.

The OP says her horse is inclined to start 'broncing' when asked for canter. I assume she means he begins bucking.

If he were mine, I would have his back checked for a start and also have a professional make sure his saddle isn't causing pressure.

It just worries me sometimes that a bit with a 'harsher' action is sometimes the easiest resort, but can often make the problem worse.


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## smokeybear

Totally agree but when the OP posted War and Peace explaining their huge amount of knowledge and experience I took a short cut too..................


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## Rafa

:wink: I know exactly what you mean.


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## RachJeremy

Sweety said:


> I can't help wondering.
> 
> The OP says her horse is inclined to start 'broncing' when asked for canter. I assume she means he begins bucking.
> 
> If he were mine, I would have his back checked for a start and also have a professional make sure his saddle isn't causing pressure.
> 
> It just worries me sometimes that a bit with a 'harsher' action is sometimes the easiest resort, but can often make the problem worse.


He's had his back checked... He's fine, we get the vet out every 6 months for his teeth and a general check up. As we're responsible owners. 
And as for saying a gag is severe. I've ridden in them. The horse kept with Boycie is ridden in one and i've ridden him numerous times. And a young horse i helped ride for a friend was ridden in one. So i have ridden with them before. The only type i don't have much experience with is a pelham and double bridles, as i've only really ridden in one once when i was at college and my friend let me ride his show cob in it to help me with the college work.

I understand you're worried about my lack of experience. But i have had people suggest different bits, the vet has checked him over, he's merely fresh and full of beans when it comes to bucking, much like many horses in winter and due to the fact we have no school and i can't use the school down the road because by the time i get there its too dark or in use by the liveries there, so i have to hack out, and can only really do it once a week due to work. And my friend hacks him out too, but that's twice a week he gets worked. And that's not much for him, this is why he gets excited when we ask for canter, as he's excited and broncing/bucking to show that excitement. As he likes working, he enjoys it.

Trust me. I know people here like to give people a bashing for asking for opinions and whether it's a good idea... For all i know i'll buy the bit and it won't make a difference or he won't like it. If thats the case, i won't ride in it and will get rid of it. I was just asking if the dutch gag due to the style of the bit does help to make the horse round it's head and neck more than a snaffle, when trying to encourage them to round their heads. 
Again, i have ridden many horses and known many people to change bits in order to get their horse working better. I know i can ride a horse in an outline as i always ask for an outline and work out the best way to ask each horse for the outline. However i feel for Boycie the saffle isn't really asking him to do anything, as it doesn't have poll pressure as much as a dutch gag surely due to the shape and rings of the bit.

I'm not trying to abuse my horse... Like said in above posts, i'm trying to build his muscle up, and i have a feeling he'd work better in a dutch gag. 
Note - I would be asking my friend whom i've mentioned above, but he's sadly dead... So i've come here. He would give me the advice i'm looking for, and he wouldn't call me inexperienced and tell me i didn't know what i was doing. He would tell me to try it and see. But again, i'm not asking whether i should try it or not. I'm asking whether the dutch gag does work the way i'm thinking it does. As it has more leverage and in the right hands, can it work the way i'm wanting it to, to try and get the horse to work on the bit, rather than ignoring it.

Anyway.. I think i'm going to go and speak to my instructor again about it. And mention the idea, she'll probably agree to give it go. Like i said, i am not heavy with my hands, otherwise the other horses i'd of ridden in one may have thrown me or had sore mouths. And despite the fact someone who doesn't even know me thinks i have hardly any experience i'm not going to let that knock me down in trying to better my horse. He may not like this bit, but on the other hand, he may work better in it. Only trying it out will tell.

At least i'm willing to go out and buy a bit to fit him, rather than borrowing the bit off the horse who lives on the yard's bit, which is too small... Like MANY other people would do.. I'm willing to spend my money and buy something that will better him. But again this won't be happening till summer when we access the school more. And when he's in proper work. And when i have an instructor back out to give me more lessons on him.

Right. Walking away from this topic now before i get told off for this too!

Just to add on, not to make this a competition, just because i'm 22 and am young compared to most of you, doesn't mean i lack experience on any of you... Granted many of you probably do know more than me. However i don't know you, and you don't know me... I'm not slating your knowledge, yet your slating mine? I know people younger than me myself who have plenty of experience. Just because i'm young, doesn't mean i don't know anything. And that is what i find rude about the equine world. I've been around horses for 18 years... Yer ok, that's not 30 or 40. But i've spent years learning about them ad caring for them. I've worked within the industry from RDA work to competition/hunting horses. I've been in sole charge of all of these horses. One point i was left for the sole care of 38 horses on a yard. Do you really think my bosses would have let me work for them if i lacked experience? No they wouldn't. And not fragile competition horses. I accept the fact i am still learning every day when it comes to horses, you never stop learning. However i find it horrible that people like me get slated and told they know nothing because of their age... When i know enough. I know how to look after a horse, i know the anatomy, i know the muscles. How to check lameness, how to take off a shoe, barefoot trimming, clipping, plaiting up and grooming for shows. Tack anatomy, how to fit both saddles and bridles to any horse properly. I've dealth with horses that would sooner rear up and kick me in the face with no problems. I've know basic skills when it comes to lameness or cuts. I know when i need a vet or not, i know to get my own horse checked out as often as i can. And the vet is called the second we think something is wrong with him. I've won dressage shows and have plenty of rossettes and even had judges compliment my handling of difficult horses. I've been thrown off and never ever blamed the horse, i fall because of rider error. 
I understand you all think i know jack compared to all of you... And yer you probably do know a bit more than me experience wise. But that does NOT mean that i am in-experienced and don't know what i'm doing... Just because i'm young and asking a question.

I think from now on i won't ask questions here. As whenever i do, even if i've proved that i'm doing everything right and back myself up and defend myself i get seen as the 'bad guy' in everything. I get told off for standing my ground and coming back with that i've had my horses teeth and back checked, i've ridden in dutch gags. I've said i won't ride in a pelham or bitless because i lack experience with both bits/bridles. And if my horse doesn't like the dutch gag or it doesn't work or anything he won't continue being worked in it... I won't let my horse suffer. But insisting i don't know what i'm doing isn't exactly fair? As none of you know me as a person, none of you know where i've worked and whom for.

You cannot judge people just because of their age. That's not fair and it's rude. I don't judge any of you. And i haven't insulted any of you. And i'm sure at some point you have wanted to ask questions, and you've asked online or asked someone for help on something... And i bet if you did and someone told you what you have all told me when you know what you've done and you know your own experiences and your own horse, you'd be a bit annoyed or upset. I've taken all this on the chin, i'm a little fed up of people who are older than me, insisting i don't know what i'm doing. And why? Because of my age... None of you have said anything about "try it and see". You don't know me, you don't know my horse. For all you guys know i could be a famous rider... I'm not, but i'm just saying. Unless you know me personally you have no reason to tell me i lack experience. And if instructors who've taught me in person are saying i should try him in a different bit to see if it helps, surely that should tell you i know enough. I've researched into various bits and the Dutch Gag seems to look like it would help. I will NOT ride him in a bit i am unfamiliar with myself. Which surely should tell you as well that i'm aware i don't know everything, i know what i need to learn still and i'm not one of them people who kit my horse out with something i don't know how to ride in. I see people everyday riding horses in stronger bits, grackles, breastplates with martingales. The horse is smothered in leather and metal and forced into it's frame... I am not doing that. My horse is ridden in a cavesson noseband, his saddle has no attachments like the martingale.

And i know i'm going to get battered for saying what i've said above. But i was asking a simple question and even after defending myself and coming back on these comments saying i'm inexperienced, and people making little jokes about me and my "huge" experience... Erm i never said i knew everything did i? I'm just saying i am not inexperienced with horses as people are trying to say.

I'm 22... Not stupid... Thanks!


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## RachJeremy

Wiz201 said:


> I can imagine how horses find certain mouthpieces and bits better than others, some cobs actually go better in pelhams than snaffles due to their head shapes. You could even try a bitless bridle, see if he relaxes with no bit in his mouth? I rode a welsh cob with one on and she was lovely to ride.


I wouldn't want to ride him in a pelham, or a double bridle or whatever, just mainly because i have rarely ridden in them. And i wouldn't mind getting more lessons to ride in doubles on a horse that doesn't mind it and is worked in one often, rather than getting one for mine and have him have a mental breakdown because he's gone from a simple snaffle to a pelham. 
I'm looking into bits i have used and know how they fit and how they ride in, as then i know i'm not doing anything stupid. I've ridden in dutch gags, so thats why i'm wondering about them. As i know they're severe, but in the right hands their fine, and i've ridden many horses in them and not had a problem.

And for bitless, its something i have never ridden in, so something i wouldn't want to try on him. I have ridden him to and from the field in the headcollar and around the school with just a headcollar on, but that's completely different.


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## Rafa

I've read back through this thread and I really can't see anywhere that you've been "told off".

You did ask for advice, and you have had advice.

To answer your question, yes, a Dutch Gag puts pressure on the poll and the theory is that it will make a horse with a high head carriage drop it's head. With some horses though, it has the reverse effect and the horse will raise or throw it's head up to try and evade the action over the poll.

I appreciate that you say you're very experienced, have ridden many horses and know how to ask a horse for "an outline". You will know then that for any horse to go in a correct and relaxed outline, the movement has to come from behind.

This is why I suggested you invest your money in lessons, rather than an expensive bit which may be a waste of money, and even make the problem worse.


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## Elles

Simply put a gag bit is designed to raise the head, mainly by acting on the corners of the mouth, a curb bit is designed to lower the head, by acting in the curb groove. 

A curb bit such as the pelham correctly adjusted does not apply poll pressure, although this is a common misconception. Some horses appear to come onto the bit, or into an outline when ridden in a gag snaffle, or more severe bit than they were previously ridden in, as they pop behind the bit trying to avoid the pressure. It doesn't usually stop them from getting strong and galloping off if they're so inclined, though it might be effective for a short while until they learn to evade it and carry on as before.

If the rider changes herself as well as the bit, this can sometimes be very effective. 

If you want a horse to build weak back muscle, it's better to learn exercises in hand from a good physio or groundwork trainer and learn how to ask the horse to tilt his pelvis, engage his hindquarters, step under his centre of gravity and lift and swing his back. Starting with short periods of exercises, interspersed with many opportunities to stretch and relax, before introducing exercises under saddle, including lateral exercises, circles and reinback to balance and straighten the horse. Having visited your own physio of some kind to address your own crookedness and asymmetries. Polework is also good for building back muscle, as is hillwork. Reinback up hills is particularly effective, but shouldn't be asked of a weak, unfit horse and the rider or handler should be careful to ensure the horse is being asked to work correctly without bad tension that can cause strains.

Saddle fit is extremely important. An ill fitting or uncomfortable saddle, can also cause what appear to be problems with the bit, or schooling issues, such as bucking into canter, taking off, throwing the head. etc.

Being ridden twice a week isn't usually enough to muscle, strengthen and fitten a horse.

You are quite right, there would be no point in putting your horse in a pelham without first learning how to introduce and use one, as it could make things worse. 

So the simple answer to your question is in the first sentence, but with horses there are rarely simple answers to simple questions.


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## RachJeremy

Sweety said:


> I've read back through this thread and I really can't see anywhere that you've been "told off".
> 
> You did ask for advice, and you have had advice.
> 
> To answer your question, yes, a Dutch Gag puts pressure on the poll and the theory is that it will make a horse with a high head carriage drop it's head. With some horses though, it has the reverse effect and the horse will raise or throw it's head up to try and evade the action over the poll.
> 
> I appreciate that you say you're very experienced, have ridden many horses and know how to ask a horse for "an outline". You will know then that for any horse to go in a correct and relaxed outline, the movement has to come from behind.
> 
> This is why I suggested you invest your money in lessons, rather than an expensive bit which may be a waste of money, and even make the problem worse.


Yet you failed to give me that advise from the start? 
And i backed up myself saying i get lessons. I have an instructor come out often. My friend was teaching me before he died and now i have another instructor. The only reason i'm not having lessons at the moment is due to the fact i cannot ride because whenever i go to book a lesson the school is taken by liveries on the yard which has the school. So since i'm not a livery there, i have no choice but to walk away from the yard if the school is in use. So i'm not going to call out my instructor when i have no guarentee of getting the school for the later times in the evening i'm there. The school is not floodlit, so we need daylight. And due to work, i'm rarely on the yard in the daylight to ride. And we're not allowed to use the school on weekends. So i'm waiting till we get daylight to get more lessons...

But seeing as i don't know how my horse will work in the bit, i don't see why i'm getting responses to not try it? As you say, some horses will drop their heads and some won't. I'm aware he needs to engage his hind quarters, but again i don't feel he's working properly in his snaffle. Which is why i wanted to try another bit which i know about and have ridden in before. And like i've said, if the bit doesn't work how i'm hoping it will or if the horse doesn't settle well in it, then i won't keep riding him in it.

But you seem to keep standing by the 'fact' you think i'm inexperienced and need more lessons. When i've explained already i get lessons. But due to the weather and daylight, i can't at the moment.


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## RachJeremy

Elles said:


> Simply put a gag bit is designed to raise the head, mainly by acting on the corners of the mouth, a curb bit is designed to lower the head, by acting in the curb groove.
> 
> A curb bit such as the pelham correctly adjusted does not apply poll pressure, although this is a common misconception. Some horses appear to come onto the bit, or into an outline when ridden in a gag snaffle, or more severe bit than they were previously ridden in, as they pop behind the bit trying to avoid the pressure. It doesn't usually stop them from getting strong and galloping off if they're so inclined, though it might be effective for a short while until they learn to evade it and carry on as before.
> 
> If the rider changes herself as well as the bit, this can sometimes be very effective.
> 
> If you want a horse to build weak back muscle, it's better to learn exercises in hand from a good physio or groundwork trainer and learn how to ask the horse to tilt his pelvis, engage his hindquarters, step under his centre of gravity and lift and swing his back. Starting with short periods of exercises, interspersed with many opportunities to stretch and relax, before introducing exercises under saddle, including lateral exercises, circles and reinback to balance and straighten the horse. Having visited your own physio of some kind to address your own crookedness and asymmetries. Polework is also good for building back muscle, as is hillwork. Reinback up hills is particularly effective, but shouldn't be asked of a weak, unfit horse and the rider or handler should be careful to ensure the horse is being asked to work correctly without bad tension that can cause strains.
> 
> Saddle fit is extremely important. An ill fitting or uncomfortable saddle, can also cause what appear to be problems with the bit, or schooling issues, such as bucking into canter, taking off, throwing the head. etc.
> 
> Being ridden twice a week isn't usually enough to muscle, strengthen and fitten a horse.
> 
> You are quite right, there would be no point in putting your horse in a pelham without first learning how to introduce and use one, as it could make things worse.
> 
> So the simple answer to your question is in the first sentence, but with horses there are rarely simple answers to simple questions.


See this is helpful! And it's not really telling me i'm inexperienced! But this is the things i want to hear. As i'm happy to try and arrange for someone to come out and have a poke and prod of my horse. Luckily when i was at my old yard we had a physio out to look at one of the young horses who was a handful to ride. And she showed us a handful of simple exercises to do before ad after work to help with stretching the muscles ect. So i might start doing them too.

But i agree, ridden twice a week isn't enough to build muscle up. Which is why i'm not rushing out to buy a bit asap for him. I'm waiting till we get into more light and he's in more work again. So for now he'll stay in his snaffle.

But i know a school near me who might help out with teaching me to ride in a pelham. But i kinda need to be careful with spending, so getting two sets of lesson isn't exactly easy. So we shall see what the summer brings.

I might even ask around to see if i can borrow a bit off someone who has my horse's size. And try him out before i buy one if i can... Although i'm not too keen on second hand stuff like that.

Hmm. Thank you! We shall see what happens when it gets more daylight.


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## Rafa

You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that particular bit is right or wrong for your horse, what I am saying is that there isn't any bit that will alone, get your horse taking up a good contact and going in a nice outline.

What is needed is for you to put in the work, under experienced supervision, to correct faults in the way either he is going or in the messages you're giving him.

I understand what you say, that you have limited access to the ménage and may be able to do more with him in the Spring.

You have had some excellent advice from Elles in her post. I would read through it carefully if I were you.


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## Rafa

Cross posted.


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## Hanwombat

Your horse should work more into an outline once it engages more with the hindquarters and pushes from behind from than the front. Perhaps you should take some lessons from a good instructor who can teach you exercises to help your horse to engage more.

I always had the trouble with mine than she was croup high ever so slightly so meant she was more on the forehand.


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## Rafa

rachjeremy said:


> he's had his back checked... He's fine, we get the vet out every 6 months for his teeth and a general check up. As we're responsible owners.
> And as for saying a gag is severe. I've ridden in them. The horse kept with boycie is ridden in one and i've ridden him numerous times. And a young horse i helped ride for a friend was ridden in one. So i have ridden with them before. The only type i don't have much experience with is a pelham and double bridles, as i've only really ridden in one once when i was at college and my friend let me ride his show cob in it to help me with the college work.
> 
> I understand you're worried about my lack of experience. But i have had people suggest different bits, the vet has checked him over, he's merely fresh and full of beans when it comes to bucking, much like many horses in winter and due to the fact we have no school and i can't use the school down the road because by the time i get there its too dark or in use by the liveries there, so i have to hack out, and can only really do it once a week due to work. And my friend hacks him out too, but that's twice a week he gets worked. And that's not much for him, this is why he gets excited when we ask for canter, as he's excited and broncing/bucking to show that excitement. As he likes working, he enjoys it.
> 
> Trust me. I know people here like to give people a bashing for asking for opinions and whether it's a good idea... For all i know i'll buy the bit and it won't make a difference or he won't like it. If thats the case, i won't ride in it and will get rid of it. I was just asking if the dutch gag due to the style of the bit does help to make the horse round it's head and neck more than a snaffle, when trying to encourage them to round their heads.
> Again, i have ridden many horses and known many people to change bits in order to get their horse working better. I know i can ride a horse in an outline as i always ask for an outline and work out the best way to ask each horse for the outline. However i feel for boycie the saffle isn't really asking him to do anything, as it doesn't have poll pressure as much as a dutch gag surely due to the shape and rings of the bit.
> 
> I'm not trying to abuse my horse... Like said in above posts, i'm trying to build his muscle up, and i have a feeling he'd work better in a dutch gag.
> Note - i would be asking my friend whom i've mentioned above, but he's sadly dead... So i've come here. He would give me the advice i'm looking for, and he wouldn't call me inexperienced and tell me i didn't know what i was doing. He would tell me to try it and see. But again, i'm not asking whether i should try it or not. I'm asking whether the dutch gag does work the way i'm thinking it does. As it has more leverage and in the right hands, can it work the way i'm wanting it to, to try and get the horse to work on the bit, rather than ignoring it.
> 
> Anyway.. I think i'm going to go and speak to my instructor again about it. And mention the idea, she'll probably agree to give it go. Like i said, i am not heavy with my hands, otherwise the other horses i'd of ridden in one may have thrown me or had sore mouths. And despite the fact someone who doesn't even know me thinks i have hardly any experience i'm not going to let that knock me down in trying to better my horse. He may not like this bit, but on the other hand, he may work better in it. Only trying it out will tell.
> 
> At least i'm willing to go out and buy a bit to fit him, rather than borrowing the bit off the horse who lives on the yard's bit, which is too small... Like many other people would do.. I'm willing to spend my money and buy something that will better him. But again this won't be happening till summer when we access the school more. And when he's in proper work. And when i have an instructor back out to give me more lessons on him.
> 
> Right. Walking away from this topic now before i get told off for this too!
> 
> Just to add on, not to make this a competition, just because i'm 22 and am young compared to most of you, doesn't mean i lack experience on any of you... Granted many of you probably do know more than me. However i don't know you, and you don't know me... I'm not slating your knowledge, yet your slating mine? I know people younger than me myself who have plenty of experience. Just because i'm young, doesn't mean i don't know anything. And that is what i find rude about the equine world. I've been around horses for 18 years... Yer ok, that's not 30 or 40. But i've spent years learning about them ad caring for them. I've worked within the industry from rda work to competition/hunting horses. I've been in sole charge of all of these horses. One point i was left for the sole care of 38 horses on a yard. Do you really think my bosses would have let me work for them if i lacked experience? No they wouldn't. And not fragile competition horses. I accept the fact i am still learning every day when it comes to horses, you never stop learning. However i find it horrible that people like me get slated and told they know nothing because of their age... When i know enough. I know how to look after a horse, i know the anatomy, i know the muscles. How to check lameness, how to take off a shoe, barefoot trimming, clipping, plaiting up and grooming for shows. Tack anatomy, how to fit both saddles and bridles to any horse properly. I've dealth with horses that would sooner rear up and kick me in the face with no problems. I've know basic skills when it comes to lameness or cuts. I know when i need a vet or not, i know to get my own horse checked out as often as i can. And the vet is called the second we think something is wrong with him. I've won dressage shows and have plenty of rossettes and even had judges compliment my handling of difficult horses. I've been thrown off and never ever blamed the horse, i fall because of rider error.
> I understand you all think i know jack compared to all of you... And yer you probably do know a bit more than me experience wise. But that does not mean that i am in-experienced and don't know what i'm doing... Just because i'm young and asking a question.
> 
> I think from now on i won't ask questions here. As whenever i do, even if i've proved that i'm doing everything right and back myself up and defend myself i get seen as the 'bad guy' in everything. I get told off for standing my ground and coming back with that i've had my horses teeth and back checked, i've ridden in dutch gags. I've said i won't ride in a pelham or bitless because i lack experience with both bits/bridles. And if my horse doesn't like the dutch gag or it doesn't work or anything he won't continue being worked in it... I won't let my horse suffer. But insisting i don't know what i'm doing isn't exactly fair? As none of you know me as a person, none of you know where i've worked and whom for.
> 
> You cannot judge people just because of their age. That's not fair and it's rude. I don't judge any of you. And i haven't insulted any of you. And i'm sure at some point you have wanted to ask questions, and you've asked online or asked someone for help on something... And i bet if you did and someone told you what you have all told me when you know what you've done and you know your own experiences and your own horse, you'd be a bit annoyed or upset. I've taken all this on the chin, i'm a little fed up of people who are older than me, insisting i don't know what i'm doing. And why? Because of my age... None of you have said anything about "try it and see". You don't know me, you don't know my horse. For all you guys know i could be a famous rider... I'm not, but i'm just saying. Unless you know me personally you have no reason to tell me i lack experience. And if instructors who've taught me in person are saying i should try him in a different bit to see if it helps, surely that should tell you i know enough. I've researched into various bits and the dutch gag seems to look like it would help. I will not ride him in a bit i am unfamiliar with myself. Which surely should tell you as well that i'm aware i don't know everything, i know what i need to learn still and i'm not one of them people who kit my horse out with something i don't know how to ride in. I see people everyday riding horses in stronger bits, grackles, breastplates with martingales. The horse is smothered in leather and metal and forced into it's frame... I am not doing that. My horse is ridden in a cavesson noseband, his saddle has no attachments like the martingale.
> 
> And i know i'm going to get battered for saying what i've said above. But i was asking a simple question and even after defending myself and coming back on these comments saying i'm inexperienced, and people making little jokes about me and my "huge" experience... Erm i never said i knew everything did i? I'm just saying i am not inexperienced with horses as people are trying to say.
> 
> I'm 22... Not stupid... Thanks!


Phew ..........!!!:


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## DrBear

From personal use of the dutch gag, I would advise to stay away, not because it's a horrid bit but because it can be really easy to misuse even if you know what you're doing - it can happen even if you don't realise. Personally I use medium shanked pelhams on double reins. This way I have a choice between having breaks/asking for more through the back (curb rein) and keeping a general good contact on, what is effectively, the hanging cheek (snaffle) part of the bit. Happy Mouth Straightbars are a nicer fit to the mouth, you've probably heard this argument time over time with various horse-types, but the jointed bits and links can often pinch at the tongue and cause discomfort to the roof of the mouth (which often occurs with an over use of a jointed snaffle). Both my heavies and previous warmbloods have loved being ridden in a pelham, my snotty fat pony went from a bolting mess when you asked for more through the bit (used in a bradoon before hand with previous owner) to a straight cut mover within weeks of changing the bit.
In regards to your lad it'll give you the extra breaks so you won't have to keep resorting to circles, and at least then you can actually have a chance at half halting and getting him working into the bit. If you can, also try long reining him to get bit principles established. Even if for just 20 mins in the evenings it'll do him the world of good.

Have a go with both bits and see how your lad goes in each, but like I said, I can't recommend the pelham enough just for the sheer fact that you have so much choice to the pressure levels you can apply and the clarity of the instructions the bit provides, whereas with the gag that's not a specific option when only ridden in with one rein (unless you go for the four "hoop" dutch where double reins can be used).


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## Lurcherlad

You may be able to hire bits to try out, locally.


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