# The Great Puggle Debate



## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

I've read some good/some bad info on puggles (pug x beagle)

Just wondered if anyone owns a puggle, what are they like as a family pet and what's the general view on puggles?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> I've read some good/some bad info on puggles (pug x beagle)
> 
> Just wondered if anyone owns a puggle, what are they like as a family pet and what's the general view on puggles?


Do not know the puggle But my view is its a mongrel end of


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

I dont realy agree on breeding designer dogs.
Why not go get a pedigree pug or beagle?


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## Rosikus (Aug 10, 2008)

And it begins again lol.

If you think the dog will suit your lifestyle and really like it, go for it. It's no-one elses business to tell you what to do or think, and if they comment on it take no notice! It's your life!


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)




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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Rosikus said:


> And it begins again lol.
> 
> If you think the dog will suit your lifestyle and really like it, go for it. It's no-one elses business to tell you what to do or think, and if they comment on it take no notice! It's your life!


My View is not telling someone what to do or think and I commented because it was posted as whats the general view. So thats my view


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## Rosikus (Aug 10, 2008)

Lol sorry, I didn't say you were telling her what to do course not! But I was just reminding her not to be influenced too much by what other people think because at the end of the day it's her life and her decision.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

I know nothing about them as it's not a breed as such,it's a crossbreed with a fancy name,probably a high price tag to match with few or no health tests carried out!


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

i just googled puggle, What a very lovely looking dog, very cute follow your heart if you dont buy one someone else will they are hear now so they need a loving home.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Rosikus said:


> Lol sorry, I didn't say you were telling her what to do course not! But I was just reminding her not to be influenced too much by what other people think because at the end of the day it's her life and her decision.


No Probs although I cannot understand Why post for a general view if you do not want to know what other people think as on a forum unfortunately there will be Good and Bad Opinions


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> I've read some good/some bad info on puggles (pug x beagle)
> 
> Just wondered if anyone owns a puggle, what are they like as a family pet and what's the general view on puggles?


Never heard of or seen the puggle x breed before. I just googled them... they are very sweet. But that shouldn't really be ones main priority when purchasing a dog imo.


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

About a month ago I had never even heard of a puggle.. 

I was looking at pugs and just stumbled across the puggle and thought it was a lovely looking dog.. After looking at Puggle Love UK which is a site all about puggles (never would have guessed) I totally fell in love with them.. They are beautiful dogs.. 

I was put off pugs because I read they suffer with breathing problems..

Whats all the fuss about crossbreads, are they bad pets, do they have lots of health problems ect...

I don't really get why people are so against them? Can someone explain?

I am looking to buy a puggle, so I really do want to know the goods and bads of this dog..


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> About a month ago I had never even heard of a puggle..
> 
> I was looking at pugs and just stumbled across the puggle and thought it was a lovely looking dog.. After looking at Puggle Love UK which is a site all about puggles (never would have guessed) I totally fell in love with them.. They are beautiful dogs..
> 
> ...


what people are agianst is this...is say you cross a pug(for instants) with say a beagle,you need to know what health problems a pug has,and what health problems beagles have...because when you crossbreed them you are likely to have pups with health issues from both sides...i hope this explains.


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

Ah right ok, yeah, that makes sense, is it possible that by crossbreeding you might be able to put right some of the known health problems..

Eg, the pugs squashed face causes them to have eye problems and breathing problems and they are snore, loudly!

By crossing them with a beagle they have a less squashed face? Could this solve this problem ect..


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> Ah right ok, yeah, that makes sense, is it possible that by crossbreeding you might be able to put right some of the known health problems..
> 
> Eg, the pugs squashed face causes them to have eye problems and breathing problems and they are snore, loudly!
> 
> By crossing them with a beagle they have a less squashed face? Could this solve this problem ect..


i see where your coming from there,but as i've never bred dogs i can only assume that it would take a long time to breed out the bad traits..i'm sure other members with much more knowledge will explain better.


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

Ok, thanks Janice


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> Ok, thanks Janice


your very welcome.sorry i could'nt give you more advice


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

Personally I have nothing against the dogs,I have a major problem with those Breeders,breeding crossbreeds,sticking a high price on them and selling them with no health tests.

Some health problems are hereditary so will be passed on to the off spring regardless,this is why good breeders test for known conditions within there chosen breed,so they can breed the best two dogs,free from Hereditary conditions.
Another consideration is not all pups will be the same,they will take on different characteristics and traits,be completely different from one another in looks and personality.

We also have a major rescue crisis in the UK,with dogs been put on the PTS lists,because they don't have a secure rescue place,or a home.One dog is PTS every 80 minutes in the UK - These dogs didn't ask to be born either,we live in a very overpopuated dog world,so why deliberatly breed crossbreeds ?


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

Yeah thats very true..


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

Rosikus said:


> And it begins again lol.
> 
> If you think the dog will suit your lifestyle and really like it, go for it. It's no-one elses business to tell you what to do or think, and if they comment on it take no notice! It's your life!


My word you're some 'stroppy' young woman
The question was "What's the general view on Puggles" and that is what poeple are answering.
Calm down, nobody is going to say anything bad about Toby
Mary
x


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

lol yeah it's true, I did ask for the good and bad points... And I'm totally open to hear both sides of the story.. I wouldn't be bothered by people who just say "ooh its a crossbreed, its a mongrel" blah blah..

Thats simply a fact, I know that already.. So thats in one ear and out the other..

I'm guessing nobody actually owns a puggle and can tell me what they are like as a family pet..


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

I know a girl who bred a litter of "puggles" she was selling them for a small fortune. Yes they look cute but God knows what health conditions they face in the future.. 

But why do we bother trying to educate people because people will never listen.. and will not take any advice from established breeders who do best by their dogs and are clearly knowlegable re health issues.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Okay You probably have read all the good points about Puggles on the Puggle Forum you mentioned so here is an interesting Link from a Pug Breeder re Puggles
http://www.pugs.org/Puggles.htm


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

bee112 said:


> I know a girl who bred a litter of "puggles" she was selling them for a small fortune. Yes they look cute but God knows what health conditions they face in the future..
> 
> But why do we bother trying to educate people because people will never listen.. and will not take any advice from established breeders who do best by their dogs and are clearly knowlegable re health issues.


Well the difference is, I will listen, I do want to know what I'll be taking on by buying a puggle, health issues, their behaviour, mantainance (sp), what they are like with children and other animals..

The reason I even started looking at puggles were because I was massively put off buying a Pug because it seemed to have a list of health issues.. And thats a pedigree dog... All dogs seem to have their own health issues whether they are mongrels or pedigrees...

I already have maggie, a blue staffordshire bull terrier, so I'm worried how they will get on..


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> lol yeah it's true, I did ask for the good and bad points... And I'm totally open to hear both sides of the story.. I wouldn't be bothered by people who just say "ooh its a crossbreed, its a mongrel" blah blah..
> 
> Thats simply a fact, I know that already.. So thats in one ear and out the other..
> 
> I'm guessing nobody actually owns a puggle and can tell me what they are like as a family pet..


Any dog would be a great family dog if brought up and socialised properly


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> Well the difference is, I will listen, I do want to know what I'll be taking on by buying a puggle, health issues, their behaviour, mantainance (sp), what they are like with children and other animals..
> 
> The reason I even started looking at puggles were because I was massively put off buying a Pug because it seemed to have a list of health issues.. And thats a pedigree dog... All dogs seem to have their own health issues whether they are mongrels or pedigrees...
> 
> I already have maggie, a blue staffordshire bull terrier, so I'm worried how they will get on..


right, well the Beagles have alot of health issues also, so your best bet is to research all these healthe issues and if you really do want a puggle then ask to see proof from the breeder that the pups parent are health tested.

Otherwise you risk having a pup taking on health problems from both sides and that could cost you hell of alot of money in vets bills down the line.. it's just worth you doing alot of research


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

bee112 said:


> Any dog would be a great family dog if brought up and socialised properly


Totally agree!


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

bee112 said:


> right, well the Beagles have alot of health issues also, so your best bet is to research all these healthe issues and if you really do want a puggle then ask to see proof from the breeder that the pups parent are health tested.
> 
> Otherwise you risk having a pup taking on health problems from both sides and that could cost you hell of alot of money in vets bills down the line.. it's just worth you doing alot of research


Yeah, I've just been reading about beagles... about the health test, is this something they should provide?


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> lol yeah it's true, I did ask for the good and bad points... And I'm totally open to hear both sides of the story.. I wouldn't be bothered by people who just say "ooh its a crossbreed, its a mongrel" blah blah..
> 
> Thats simply a fact, I know that already.. So thats in one ear and out the other..
> 
> I'm guessing nobody actually owns a puggle and can tell me what they are like as a family pet..


No one can tell you what any dog is like as a family pet, because no matter what the breed is, the health and temperament of the parents and the nurturing environment they were raised and socialised in is critical to what your cute pup will grow into. When you go to an established breeder who will be able to tell you about their breed and introduce you to members of your future pups family you will have a better idea of what kind of 'family pet' you are getting. Choosing one because you think the picture is cute is going to give you no information at all.


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

clueless said:


> Okay You probably have read all the good points about Puggles on the Puggle Forum you mentioned so here is an interesting Link from a Pug Breeder re Puggles
> http://www.pugs.org/Puggles.htm


oops missed your post, i'll look at that now, thank you...


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

clueless said:


> Okay You probably have read all the good points about Puggles on the Puggle Forum you mentioned so here is an interesting Link from a Pug Breeder re Puggles
> http://www.pugs.org/Puggles.htm


Well I think that link covered about everything, it was excellent
Mary
x


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## Kaz65 (Sep 7, 2008)

I don't know anything about this breed.

My only problem I have it the price they charge for a crossbreed don't get me wrong when i decided to have another dog I wasn't bothered if it was Pedigree or not as to me a dog is a dog and will give you as much love as you give them. But when I looked at prices of crossbreeds I decided I might as well go for a pedigree as I found they was so expensive.

Only advice I can give you is maybe ring your local vets and ask them they may have treated one and know a bit about them so could give you their advice on the breed before you buy.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

Good link Clueless! 

It is VERY, VERY unlikely that you'll find a Puggle with health tested parents. If you do, it is more often than not because the breeder is breeding purebreeds and KC registering them, and then breeding the bitch every other 'in between' season to make crossbreeds. 

Yes, some pedigree breeds do have health problems. The good breeders will health test and do their absolute utmost to rule out any health problems. Of course, there are no guarantees, but your chances of getting an unhealthy pedigree dog from a responsible breeder are much, much less than if you buy a crosbreed from two unhealth tested parents. You could end up with all the health problem of a pug and a beagle combined! 

What traits are you hoping to find in a dog? If you like Pugs, but are worried about health problems, I don't see how a pug crossed with a beagle, a very different breed, is going to meet your needs?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Here you go I been googling and was quite shocked to see the statement below from A UK Website re Puggles

"Do you own or know of a Puggle seeking a new home? Sadly, becuase Puggles are fashionable dogs, they may become unwanted when owners lose interest. Here at pugglelove.co.uk we obviously don't condone this, however, in this situation we are keen to help the dog in question."
A Fashionable dog!!!!!!!In other words a passing phase Jeez


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

I especially like the bit of the 'Puggle Love' site that let you know what celbrities have them. Because that would affect your decision, wouldn't it? 

Also, one of the breeders mentioned on their site looks rather like a puppy farmer to me, despite the fact they claim to have carried out health tests!


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

Thanks for all the info, its deffo made me think twice.. Should I dare to tell you how much the puppy was that we were going to buy... We have a deposit on her but are now in two minds...


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> Thanks for all the info, its deffo made me think twice.. Should I dare to tell you how much the puppy was that we were going to buy... We have a deposit on her but are now in two minds...


How much?
I bet i wont be shocked


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## MissG (Apr 18, 2008)

I don't like how people keep creating these breeds out of thin air - usually for cosmetic reasons. Although most will argue about labra-doodles not shedding etc bla bla bla.

There are far too many dogs sat in kennels ac across the country - but people who only care about what they see - and what other people think of them - insist on having designer dogs.

I would never own a labradoodle, or a cockerpoo, or a puggle or any other for that matter.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

I had loads to say but the link from Clueless covers everything. 



MissG said:


> I would never own a labradoodle, or a cockerpoo, or a puggle or any other for that matter.


I would but only from a rescue, I'm sure they make great pets but I wouldn't splash out stupid money for one for it to be riddled with health problems, not to mention line the greedy breeders pockets!


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

MissG said:


> I don't like how people keep creating these breeds out of thin air - usually for cosmetic reasons. Although most will argue about labra-doodles not shedding etc bla bla bla.
> 
> There are far too many dogs sat in kennels ac across the country - but people who only care about what they see - and what other people think of them - insist on having designer dogs.
> 
> I would never own a labradoodle, or a cockerpoo, or a puggle or any other for that matter.


I agree with you but while people are prepared to pay and buy these dogs the designer dog problem will get far worse


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

AJ said:


> I had loads to say but the link from Clueless covers everything.
> 
> I would but only from a rescue, I'm sure they make great pets but I wouldn't splash out stupid money for one for it to be riddled with health problems, not to mention line the greedy breeders pockets!


yeh I would definately have one from a rescue, but would refuse to hand money over to somebody who exploits their pets for money


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## helz (May 24, 2008)

Okay, this is a genuine question.

A ped was bred to get its characteristics in the begining.
If a Puggle is bred the same way, whats the difference?


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Rosikus said:


> And it begins again lol.
> 
> If you think the dog will suit your lifestyle and really like it, go for it. It's no-one elses business to tell you what to do or think, and if they comment on it take no notice! It's your life!


The member asked for advice this is what a public forum is all about we all have different opions!!!


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

In answer to my question, we called up a few 'breeders' taken from the puggle love website and were quoted roughly £1000 everytime, one said she had a waiting list as long as her arm so she wanted £500 up front.. No way!

I found a lady in Wales who has some pups and she seemed very concerned as to where the pups were going, she asked loads of questions and sent us a book about puggles.. She's not a breeder as such, I'm pretty sure she isn't doing it for money ect..

She sent us updated pics of the puggles and only wanted a £50 deposit to secure the puppy.. So we did put a deposit down..

But since then my other half has been tourmented (sp) about having a puggle, people were saying he'd look 'gay' walking a puggle (their words - not mine!!) its a girls dog blah blah, its all rubbish and I don't care what anyone says..

I'm just concerned about all these health issues and what the dog will be like with our other dog and our baby...


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

One thing I did notice is that the way puggles can look REALLY varies, some are big, some are small, some look more like a pug and some look more like a beagle and others looked like a staff!

I did think it looks like geneticly modified testing gone wrong.. Its a little distrurbing...


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

oops pic didnt work... lol


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> In answer to my question, we called up a few 'breeders' taken from the puggle love website and were quoted roughly £1000 everytime, one said she had a waiting list as long as her arm so she wanted £500 up front.. No way!
> 
> I found a lady in Wales who has some pups and she seemed very concerned as to where the pups were going, she asked loads of questions and sent us a book about puggles.. She's not a breeder as such, I'm pretty sure she isn't doing it for money ect..
> 
> ...


£1000 is alot of money for a cross.
Its your desicion what to do but im glad to see you are doing your reserch
My oh hates walking my cavies and prefears walking my staffie but they do get used to it i send him with a cavie in one hand a staffie in the other lol and tel him have fun on his walk lol


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## Sophiex (Jul 27, 2008)

Not directly related but I saw a chihuaha on epupz for £2500!!!


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Sophiex said:


> Not directly related but I saw a chihuaha on epupz for £2500!!!


What was so special about it?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> What was so special about it?


pmsl.the price?


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## Sophiex (Jul 27, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> What was so special about it?


Nothing (in my opinion) to justify spending that amount of money.

"Stunning pure white chihuahua girl.Smooth coat.Perfect SHORT MUZZLE,Very confident,clever and pretty little girl.Loves children and other dogs.Small and dainty in size.Parents can be seen and are KC reg.She is KC registred but will only home as a pet only,as she is to tiny for breeding.fantastic pedigree.Very loving and sweet,ready now.Viewing is highly reccomended.No time wasters or withheld numbers.Please call if you have any questions as i can not always get to reply to emails on time.Thanku."


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

I would be concerned about the health problems that appear in both breeds plus beagles can be a handful, I have a 3/4 Northern Inuit x Husky she is 10 months old now, she was out of a litter of 10 and is the only one that resembles a husky, she is built like a husky and has husky traits, I love her to bits but if i had been told the truth about her from her previous owner i wouldn't own her now, she would have gone to someone who had experience of huskys.
I know i've gone off topic a bit but my point is there is no guarentee (sp) on what your pup will end up like it may be more like a beagle but with a pug attitude or personality or the other way round.
I would be very careful with so called breeds like this and would personally go to a rescue centre and give them a donation of a grand and get a dog off them atleast they will put the money to good use and you will have a dog that needed a home  x


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Sophiex said:


> Nothing (in my opinion) to justify spending that amount of money.
> 
> "Stunning pure white chihuahua girl.Smooth coat.Perfect SHORT MUZZLE,Very confident,clever and pretty little girl.Loves children and other dogs.Small and dainty in size.Parents can be seen and are KC reg.She is KC registred but will only home as a pet only,as she is to tiny for breeding.fantastic pedigree.Very loving and sweet,ready now.Viewing is highly reccomended.No time wasters or withheld numbers.Please call if you have any questions as i can not always get to reply to emails on time.Thanku."


Well does not sound that special to me does mention any health tests either
but i bet some one will buy it


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## Sophiex (Jul 27, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> Well does not sound that special to me does mention any health tests either
> but i bet some one will buy it


Mhmm! People with too much money and too little sense.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I think the main problem is the demand of this dogs. What doesnt sell will not be produced...whats sells good will be higher in price.

I find there is a massive lack of people beeing educated about dogs! 

We had people coming up to maya saying " OH, i have never seen a gsd that colour" heh  ( so didnt i )

The breeders take simply advantage of the situation. But mostly its the buyers to blame i find imo. 

So many people dont even know there are health test needed in dogs because they simply dont know better!


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> I've read some good/some bad info on puggles (pug x beagle)
> 
> Just wondered if anyone owns a puggle, what are they like as a family pet and what's the general view on puggles?


I don't own a puggle or peag so i can't comment on what they are like as a family pet.
I guess any breed or cross breed can be a good family pet if it is trained & socialised well.
My own personal view on crossing dogs & giving them a daft name for the purpose of luring the gullible, fashion conscious & naive into paying over the odds for what is really a cross breed & not a fashion accessory will be saved & kept to my self for a little while longer any hows...

I love these threads...


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

Thanks for all the input everyone... I'll let you know if I end up with a puggle or not!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> In answer to my question, we called up a few 'breeders' taken from the puggle love website and were quoted roughly £1000 everytime, one said she had a waiting list as long as her arm so she wanted £500 up front.. No way!
> 
> I found a lady in Wales who has some pups and she seemed very concerned as to where the pups were going, she asked loads of questions and sent us a book about puggles.. She's not a breeder as such, I'm pretty sure she isn't doing it for money ect..
> 
> ...


I am glad you are seriously looking into this up to the minute fashion accessory. I applaud you by doing that and as I said what I posted was my general view on them. At the end of the day its up to you what you get as a Family pet but £1000 OMG Money grabbing Plonkers imo


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

lol yeah money grabbing plonkers indeed!


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

I'm not getting a puggle! lol I've decided!


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## Sophiex (Jul 27, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> I'm not getting a puggle! lol I've decided!


Have you thought of any other breed you might consider?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

how about a poodle?


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## Rosikus (Aug 10, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> The member asked for advice this is what a public forum is all about we all have different opions!!!


I didn't say not to give advice, I said it's her choice after all.


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

MissG said:


> I don't like how people keep creating these breeds out of thin air - usually for cosmetic reasons. Although most will argue about labra-doodles not shedding etc bla bla bla.
> 
> .


I think the LD was originally bred in Australia to get around the problem of blind people who were allergic/asthmatic with the usual labrador guide dog. Not really a cosmetic one, just a solution to a problem affecting many people. Its not their fault the 'breed' has been highjacked.

Ive just posted my mums exerienceof LDs on another thread, nice dog but after watching her experiences over the last 9mths i wouldnt touch the breed with a bargepole.


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## Sophiex (Jul 27, 2008)

MelanieW34 said:


> I think the LD was originally bred in Australia to get around the problem of blind people who were allergic/asthmatic with the usual labrador guide dog. Not really a cosmetic one, just a solution to a problem affecting many people. Its not their fault the 'breed' has been highjacked.
> 
> Ive just posted my mums exerienceof LDs on another thread, nice dog but after watching her experiences over the last 9mths i wouldnt touch the breed with a bargepole.


Yes, you're correct. However, a lot of them are not hypo-allergenic which is why so many end up in rescue.


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> What was so special about it?


Reminds me of the sketch on Harry Enfield where the bloke runs the 'art gallery' full of stuff from skips that he charges the clueless upper classes thousands for...his shop is called 'I saw you Coming''


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

Sophiex said:


> Yes, you're correct. However, a lot of them are not hypo-allergenic which is why so many end up in rescue.


Absoultely...my mums non shedding dog has more hair around the house than he does on him!!!


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> I've read some good/some bad info on puggles (pug x beagle)
> 
> Just wondered if anyone owns a puggle, what are they like as a family pet and what's the general view on puggles?


Not read all of this thread but my questions are thus:

1. What does a Puggle look like
2. And what is the purpose of crossing beagle with a pug?

You see I am trying to understand this crossbreeding malarky. Now I now labradoodles were originally bred to be assistant dogs for peeps with allergies.

So why the puggle?


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

Going back to 'Puggles' I was browsing through some Puggle sites and came across a ROUGH haired puppy. Now how does that come about
I tried to cut and paste the photo but it wouldn't work.:
Mary
x


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## Rosikus (Aug 10, 2008)

There's ya puggle.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

Rosikus said:


> There's ya puggle.


Thanks for asking question no 1


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## Rosikus (Aug 10, 2008)

I think it's the answer to number two too!  Because they're cute as hell.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

Rosikus said:


> There's ya puggle.


Would've been easier to just say UGLY!!!!


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## Rosikus (Aug 10, 2008)

It's not ugly! :O


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Rosikus said:


> There's ya puggle.


arr it is cute


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

It is cute I have to agree. But there is absolutely no guarantee that all PUGGLES will look like the pup in the pic is there?


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

Rosikus said:


> Because they're cute as hell.





cavrooney said:


> arr it is cute


Did you see that? You two agreed! Awwww!


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

Awww He is a peach!!! How cute!!! Can see why people are easily swayed!


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> It is cute I have to agree. But there is absolutely no guarantee that all PUGGLES will look like the pup in the pic is there?


yep i agree with that

but that one is a little cutie


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## Rosikus (Aug 10, 2008)

AJ said:


> Did you see that? You two agreed! Awwww!


Lol Alan. I'm sure there are a few things we agree on. Just not designer dogs! 

But anywho, I don't know why they're bred and I'm not sure I agree with it. Labradoodles at least had a purpose when people started breeding them.


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## Rosikus (Aug 10, 2008)

Some of them aren't as cute....

_Image Removed due to complaint regarding copyright ownership_

LOL


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## Louisa K (Sep 30, 2008)

He is very sweet, but if you look on the pugglelove.co.uk website all puggles look different.. Thats another thing that put me off, I might end up with a pug sized cute looking dog or a dog thats the size of a staff with a squashed face...

very random!


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

Rosikus said:


> Some of them aren't as cute....
> 
> _Image Removed due to complaint regarding copyright ownership_
> 
> LOL


See i like him even more!!!


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## missyme (May 28, 2008)

Sophiex said:


> Not directly related but I saw a chihuaha on epupz for £2500!!!


yeah i saw chiuhauha's at that price when i was looking for harley but i didnt pay anywhere near that for him


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

MelanieW34 said:


> See i like him even more!!!


i think you want one


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

Not my cup of tea.


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)




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## cav (May 23, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> Not my cup of tea.


pmsl....do you like cavs be honest i dont mind


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> i think you want one


I do

Actually I want a cross between Toby and a Puggle....?Doodlepuggle?...sounds like A WWII bomb!


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

MelanieW34 said:


>


eeewthat one dont look good


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> pmsl....do you like cavs be honest i dont mind


Yes I do. I think they are sweet natured and pretty wee dogs.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

MelanieW34 said:


> I do
> 
> Actually I want a cross between Toby and a Puggle....?Doodlepuggle?...sounds like A WWII bomb!


pmsl year sure a great name


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

Rosikus said:


> There's ya puggle.


Thats not like the one I saw, it was rough coated just cant understand where the rough bit came from.
Mary
x


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

I might cross Lily with a cavalier what do u reckon? Golden Cavs for the Chavs PMSL


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> Yes I do. I think they are sweet natured and pretty wee dogs.


Yep they are
What about staffies ?
What breed are you havin next?


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

marlynaveve said:


> Thats not like the one I saw, it was rough coated just cant understand where the rough bit came from.
> Mary
> x


this is the thing with crosses they can turn out nothing like you expect


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## Rosikus (Aug 10, 2008)

Toby x Puggle would look horrendous  There has to be some limits!


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## ToddyxxMillie (Sep 22, 2008)

i think they are very cute. if you like them them go for it. just cause its not pedigree it doesnt mean it not a good dog. at the end of the day a dog is a dog theres too much talk on just because they are not pedigree they are not a great dog. so what if its a mongrel. designer dogs are coming out now and no ones going stop it.


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

This is the rough coated Puggle I found, now I know some of you are going to say AHHHH he's cute, but he cant be a Pug and Beagle cross not with that coat
So someone is telling 'porkies'
Mary
x


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

marlynaveve said:


> This is the rough coated Puggle I found, now I know some of you are going to say AHHHH he's cute, but he cant be a Pug and Beagle cross not with that coat
> So someone is telling 'porkies'
> Mary
> x


yep he is rough haired yep i also think he is not a true pug ,beagle cross naughty naughty


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> Yep they are
> What about staffies ?
> What breed are you havin next?


I do like staffies lol

I like most dogs really.

Depending when and what my circumstances are but my next breed will either be a retired greyhound or a spaniel.


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## MelanieW34 (Sep 28, 2008)

marlynaveve said:


> This is the rough coated Puggle I found, now I know some of you are going to say AHHHH he's cute, but he cant be a Pug and Beagle cross not with that coat
> So someone is telling 'porkies'
> Mary
> x


he looks a bit border terrier ish to me.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Louisa K said:


> I'm not getting a puggle! lol I've decided!


You Go Girl. As I said you looked into the breed not like some people who just see a cute pup pic and automatically buy.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

ToddyxxMillie said:


> i think they are very cute. if you like them them go for it. just cause its not pedigree it doesnt mean it not a good dog. at the end of the day a dog is a dog theres too much talk on just because they are not pedigree they are not a great dog. so what if its a mongrel. designer dogs are coming out now and no ones going stop it.


But people can stop it by education!!!! imo Most of these Designer Breeders are only in it for the money, so no sale -no Money


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

marlynaveve said:


> This is the rough coated Puggle I found, now I know some of you are going to say AHHHH he's cute, but he cant be a Pug and Beagle cross not with that coat
> So someone is telling 'porkies'
> Mary
> x


Haha Telling Porkies or Selling Porkies LOL


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

If one wanted to get a Puggle then that's upto them (or any other type of x breed). But, we all know that 2 different breeds of pedigree dogs mixed together can mean more health issues. All breeds have their own health issues. So when buying both a full pedigree or a x breed, you really should make sure all the right health tests have been done... but like Jackson said, probably most x breed breeders don't even bother doing health tests.

For £1000 you can get a pure bred Pug.

I personally wouldn't buy a x breed. I think they charge way too much for non health tested pups/parents. I could probably go and buy a pure bred dog with health tests for less money.

But, if I was looking to rescue a dog, I certainly would rescue a cross breed.



ToddyxxMillie said:


> i think they are very cute. if you like them them go for it. just cause its not pedigree it doesnt mean it not a good dog. at the end of the day a dog is a dog theres too much talk on just because they are not pedigree they are not a great dog. so what if its a mongrel. designer dogs are coming out now and no ones going stop it.


Yes, they are very cute. Like I said before, I really don't think people should just get a dog/certain type of dog because they look "cute". There's a hell of a lot involved when taking on a dog. It's not all about sitting there looking at it and how sweet it is and telling everyone what a sweet puppy you have got, it's bl**dy hard work! After all the stress that can come with training pups etc, you'll probably forget how cute the damn thing is after a while lol.

I don't think people are saying because it's not a pure pedigree dog that it isn't a good dog, what they are trying to say is these x breeds are never health tested. So they have 2 different parents, who are known for their own health issues. So they could end up with health issues from both sides. If that happens, it's ALOT to take on... and can cause alot of hurt and cost alot in vet bills.

I doubt people are thinking eww cross breeds are bad/horrid dogs, it's nothing like that. It's the breeders who I think we are "annoyed" with, because of their irresponsible behaviour when breeding these cross breeds. Because most of the time it's for the money.


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

Kay2008 said:


> I doubt people are thinking eww cross breeds are bad/horrid dogs, it's nothing like that. It's the breeders who I think we are "annoyed" with, because of their irresponsible behaviour when breeding these cross breeds. Because most of the time it's for the money.


That is exactly right. Please dont think poeple on here are against the dogs, we all love dogs. Its the lack of ethics behind the breeding we are up in arms about. 
Mary
x


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

marlynaveve said:


> That is exactly right. Please dont think poeple on here are against the dogs, we all love dogs. Its the lack of ethics behind the breeding we are up in arms about.
> Mary
> x


Totally agree Mary 100%


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

ToddyxxMillie said:


> i think they are very cute. if you like them them go for it. just cause its not pedigree it doesnt mean it not a good dog. at the end of the day a dog is a dog theres too much talk on just because they are not pedigree they are not a great dog. so what if its a mongrel. designer dogs are coming out now and no ones going stop it.


I haven't seen one post that says because they are not pedigree they're not a great dog, if you actually read the thread most be say the opposite actually. I have one pedigree and two crossbreeds, they are all great dogs. I fail to see how anyone can take offence to threads like this, read them in the context they are meant instead of reading more than is there.


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

What gets me is the fact alot of these cross breeds cost more than health tested pedigree breeds.. There are soo many crossbreeds sitting in rescue centres aswell


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

bee112 said:


> What gets me is the fact alot of these cross breeds cost more than health tested pedigree breeds.. There are soo many crossbreeds sitting in rescue centres aswell


But there are also a lot of pedigrees in rescue centres as well.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> But there are also a lot of pedigrees in rescue centres as well.


agreed there is, but wats the main breed in rescue??? and why???

ill tell u, half of them being the staffy, becoz alot of people was ( and still are ) breeding the poor souls for easy money,...just like these desiger breeds, now look where its got the staffy 

soon we will be ova run wiv designers breeds in rescue, coz people are getting sniff of how easy it is to sell them, just like the staffy was...now look at the staffy, they are in rescues all over the place....mark my words, give in time, u will be able to pick up a puggle, labradoodle, etc from rescue, well, u can now.

it will be ova run wiv em, mark my words.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> agreed there is, but wats the main breed in rescue??? and why???
> 
> ill tell u, half of them being the staffy, becoz alot of people was ( and still are ) breeding the poor souls for easy money,...just like these desiger breeds, now look where its got the staffy
> 
> ...


Loadsa labradoodles already in rescue Loe - there is labradoodle rescue and they are over run with em. They can be all big and bouncy and peeps cant control em.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> Loadsa labradoodles already in rescue Loe - there is labradoodle rescue and they are over run with em. They can be all big and bouncy and peeps cant control em.


Awww bless them  its such ashame aint it....but its just gonna continue and get worse...wiv alot more designer breeds along side them.

All becoz of MONEY.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> Loadsa labradoodles already in rescue Loe - there is labradoodle rescue and they are over run with em. They can be all big and bouncy and peeps cant control em.


i wonder if these labradoodles need clipping like poodles.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

They have there own Rescue and are in URGENT need of fosterers,transporters and homecheckers I think it's dreadful because the "breed" is fairly new.So people are taking them on without doing research.This is s true with many breeds.

Also found this from the same site,
The Allergy Myth l Labradoodle Rescue UK

Allergy Friendly?

So you have allergies or asthma and would like a dog that wont make you ill? You know that some dogs, like poodles, are described as hypoallergenic (low allergy), and you have seen an advert for labradoodle puppies saying that they are allergy friendly and suitable for people with allergies. Maybe this would be the right dog for you?

The answer, unfortunately, is that the advert, in most cases, is simply wrong.

Due to the variations in coat of the labradoodle, from wiry through to fleece, it is very hard to predict what sort of coat that cute fluffy pup will ultimately end up with. There are massive variations within a litter, and also, the coat will vary dependant on whether the pup is a first cross (F1) or a 2nd or 3rd cross (F2-3)

No dog is allergy friendly; any dog can cause an allergic reaction, although for the most common allergy to dog hair, a non-shedding breed, such as a poodle is a much safer choice than breeds that shed their coats. A labradoodle may not shed much (like a poodle), or he may shed a great deal (like a Labrador); its a dangerous lottery and the severely allergic should, in the most part, stay away.


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Also found this from the same site,
> The Allergy Myth l Labradoodle Rescue UK[




According to this link there are no dogs looking for homes at the moment, dont know how old the site is though
Mary
x


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

marlynaveve said:


> According to this link there are no dogs looking for homes at the moment, dont know how old the site is though


I don't think they list the dogs needing homes on the website: 



Labradoodle Rescue UK said:


> We will not be showcasing dogs or providing details of dogs in the care of Rescue on site.


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## marlynaveve (Aug 13, 2008)

AJ said:


> I don't think they list the dogs needing homes on the website:


I was refering to the page on thier site 'Dogs Requiring Special Homes' my mistake, I thought they were meaning dogs in rescue, sorry.
Mary
x


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

cavrooney said:


> eeewthat one dont look good


Poor beggar just passed his/her sell by date. It catches up with us all at some time 

Got to admit they are cute pups but I haven't seen an ugly pup irrespective of breed.

I can't really join in on this because I don't understand enough about breeding. I wouldn't choose a puggle, £1,000 puts me off, I doubt I would pay that for a pedigree but I am not sure of today's prices.

Sue


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## JasperCarrot (Apr 22, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> i wonder if these labradoodles need clipping like poodles.


Happy Endings l Labradoodle Rescue UK

Just Looked On There ^

Gosh They Really Do Look Soo Different Dog To Dog Dont They !!

So Im Guessing Some Need Clipping And Some Dont ? 
( Like The Dog Called Bruno Wouldnt Need To Be Clipped But Then Elsie Would ? )


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Never heard of or seen a Puggle before reading this yesterday, had a look at some pictures and thought the chunky ones reminded me of a young Dogue. Bizarrely, I met one last night at my training class. It was a lot rangier than the ones in the photos and nothing like my baby Dogue.


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## Rox (Apr 10, 2009)

Sorry for posting on a old topic.

Just thought i would add a view from a puggle owner.

We spent along time research which dog to get and went with a puggle. I wanted a larger dog, where as my wife wanted a small one, so we compromised. I really like the beagle, however after researching it they were allot of work for us. We did like pugs but were put off by the really squashed face and breathing problems. We came across the puggle and researched, including what they look like from puppies to adult, you can tell which ones will be more pug when a pup (which we didn't want). Another note is they like there food so can be overfeed and they look really ugly then.

Now we have her, we have no regrets; she is a really great dog. The cross breeding as removed a number of health problems, mainly the breathing.

The puggles personality also is very affectionate and very intelligent. They can be very energetic (beagle side) but also very cuddly(pug side). They are ideal around children, our 2 year old nephew plays for ages with her (and quite rough at times) with no problems. Very "people" dogs to

Training wise we have been amazed how good she is, very good at the toilet training and tricks. At 12 weeks she could already do sit, down, stay, paw and speak, this is down to their intelligence (beagle side I think)

The downside is they are rare in the uk and unfortunately, like all dogs there are some bad breeders out there, some try to use Jack Russels or small Irish pack Beagles (larger). So be very careful. As they're rare they can be expensive, they have been around for a long time but have just become popular, or "designer". On the other hand when you look at other breeds they can cost more. They have come down by as much as £800 in the last couple of years and I'm sure as they get more popular they will continue to. In the US they are about £350 now. I do understand that is "only a cross" but at the end of the day you will have the dog for 15 odd years (hopefully!), so its worth getting the one you want.

I would recommend Puggles-r-us , they are test them for any problems, they main one to look for is the eyes (from the pug side).They are true puggles. The breader is really helpful and good to deal with if you wanted to ring for advise (after you buy one to)

Now, when researching them, we read allot of comments and spoke to actual owners and its was very hard to find a bad word about them. As someone posted, if you train and look after a dog, they will turn out well whatever the breed.

As for the cross\pedigree debate, without trying to offend anyone I believe there is a bigger problem with keep breeding dogs to find the perfect dog. There is the demand for puggles.

As with all dogs though, make sure your ready for looking after a dog before getting one of these guys.

Hope this helps!


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Louisa K said:


> I've read some good/some bad info on puggles (pug x beagle)
> 
> Just wondered if anyone owns a puggle, what are they like as a family pet and what's the general view on puggles?


Am I the only person who doesn't think they are cute?

I know someone who owns 2, and they're the weirdest looking dogs I've ever seen! It's like someones put a Pugs face on a Beagles body! Bizzare. :scared:


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Rox said:


> Sorry for posting on a old topic.
> 
> Just thought i would add a view from a puggle owner.
> 
> ...


I am pleased that you are happy with your Puggle. As I said on thisd thread earlier I do not particularly like them as I have not seen any 2 the same


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## Rox (Apr 10, 2009)

clueless said:


> I am pleased that you are happy with your Puggle. As I said on thisd thread earlier I do not particularly like them as I have not seen any 2 the same


fair enough, if we all had the same taste we would all have the same dog!

That did go through i minds, it take about 3 or 4 generations to establish the breed really, don't quote me on that though.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Rox said:


> fair enough, if we all had the same taste we would all have the same dog!
> 
> That did go through i minds, it take about 3 or 4 generations to establish the breed really, don't quote me on that though.


They have been breeding Puggles I believe in the USA for quite a few years now so you would think a type would have been established


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I'm not one for all these fancy cross breeds but I seriously LOVE pugles, I love beagless also and don't much like pugs but puggles I have to say I would defitnly have one. That is ONLY from a rescue, I would not buy one personally but if I saw one needing a home i'd have it in a heartbeat


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Forgive me but I'm not actually jumping for joy about these breeders,they are licensed by the LA which means they breed an awful lot of litter's.

This was taken from there website regarding new puppies,
They will be vet checked , insured , microchipped ,and have a *14 day warranty,*why different prices for different coloured pups,do they cost more to rear ?

Any breeder worth their salt charges price on the quality of the litter produced,not because of their colour,or they are rare,any breeder that does this would be best avoided in my opinion.
Sorry this sets alarm bells ringing for me.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Am I the only person who doesn't think they are cute?


No you're not.

With all these deliberate crossbreeds, I see the original breed and think what a disaster it is.

As my breed is the labrador, I cannot look at a labradoodle without seeing the labrador there and thinking what a terrible thing to do to a labrador which is already a wonderful breed. So sad - to me it's a travesty.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

After a little digging these breeders breed wait for it.......

Labradoodles,Cockerpoo's,Goldendoodles,Puggles,Cocker Spaniels,Labradors,Beagles......

7 Different breeds,Mmmmmm,the mind boggles.....seems they are cashing in on the crossbreeds,not in it for the money,my a**e there not!


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

And stud dog's they have,

4 Labs standing at stud,
3 Cocker Spaniels,
1 Poodle,
1 Westie,
1 Golden Retriever,

So In total 10 dogs at stud.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Dundee said:


> No you're not.
> 
> With all these deliberate crossbreeds, I see the original dog and think what a disaster it is.
> 
> As my breed is the labrador, I cannot look at a labradoodle without seeing the labrador there and thinking what a terrible thing to do to a labrador which is already a wonderful breed. So sad - to me it's a travesty.


I couldnt agree more!!
I love beagles, they are perfect in their own way...why mix them up with pugs???? :cursing:


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Oblada said:


> I couldnt agree more!!
> I love beagles, they are perfect in their own way...why mix them up with pugs???? :cursing:


Simple answer MONEY,these breeders are charging £1200 per pup


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Had a look at the pics on the testimonials section of the "Puggles r us" and really cant say I like it..really just a pug face on a beagle's body  replace it with a beagle's face and its instantly SO MUCH BETTER lol


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Simple answer MONEY,these breeders are charging £1200 per pup


  

What I don't understand is why anyone would cross a dog prone to breathing difficulties with a dog that likes to run and run and run.  Genetics doesn't work by producing only the best aspects of parents, it can also produce the worst. How many people have been fooled into thinking their labradoodle is non shedding. How long is it before the general public wake up to the spurious claims these designer cross breed breeders make.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Forgive me but I'm not actually jumping for joy about these breeders,they are licensed by the LA which means they breed an awful lot of litter's.
> 
> This was taken from there website regarding new puppies,
> They will be vet checked , insured , microchipped ,and have a *14 day warranty,*why different prices for different coloured pups,do they cost more to rear ?
> ...


absolutely agree with you Sal! x


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Dundee said:


> What I don't understand is why anyone would cross a dog prone to breathing difficulties with a dog that likes to run and run and run.  Genetics doesn't work by producing only the best aspects of parents, it can also produce the worst. How many people have been fooled into thinking their labradoodle is non shedding. How long is it before the general public wake up to the spurious claims these designer cross breed breeders make.


Exactly,which tells me that these Breeders don't actually have a clue about basic genetics.
Yes they may be show people whose dogs are Hip Scored and alike,however I'm not actually sure I would class these breeder's as responsible,testing in my opinion is only a small part of been responsible and churning out litter after litter,claiming they don't have any hidden faults and with a 14 day warrenty sets alarm bells going for me,also the amount of dogs they actually own,stud and breed from,this is more like a puppy factory/mill in my opinion.


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

The breeders live not far froom me and do not have a good reputation. 

Three of their breeding (not puggles, but 2 Beagles and a Labradoodle) lived near by - and if that is representative of the quality of their dogs I would not touch them. 

I would not trust any breeder that had a silly name for their website like Puggles-r-us......it just shows they are a commercial enterprise


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Oblada said:


> I couldnt agree more!!
> I love beagles, they are perfect in their own way...why mix them up with pugs???? :cursing:


Exactly how I feel about it (I own a beagle).

I look at the huge difference between the two breeds and it makes me shudder to think of crossing them.

A beagle is a working dog bred to scent above anything, they are high drive dogs and of very different build and structure to a pug (different size wise too).

A pug is the complete opposite - can you imagine a dog with a pug muzzle, but with a beagle's urge and natural instinct to scent? How confused would that poor bloody dog be?!? Not to mention the huge structural differences between each breed and the health problems that can occur because of these structure differences.

I am 110% completely against designer dog breeding and intentional crossbreeding, it kills me to see beagle crosses advertised and the main selling point being that crossing them makes them less prone to scenting, easier to manage etc. How can anyone guarantee what genetics each pup will have? And if you don't want a dog that scents, is a bit of a challenge training wise, is a typical stubborn hound - why would you even consider a beagle cross?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Can I ask, are most of these so called designer breeds first generation crosses?

Are they from people who own a Beagle and a Pug or a Labrador and a Poodle and calling the puppies Puggles and Labradoodles?

If so that is not a breeder, that is not a breed development program or anything apart from a money making scam breeding essentially mongrels.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Can I ask, are most of these so called designer breeds first generation crosses?
> 
> Are they from poeple who own a Beagle and a Pug or a Labrador and a Poodle and calling the puppies Puggles and Labradoodles?
> 
> If so that is not a breeder, that is not a breed development program or anything apart from a money making scam breeding essentially mongrels.


Yep.

We have some puppy farmers here who breed what they like to call second and third generation crosses, but they are just breeding crossbreed to crossbreed without any thought to type and no long term breeding plan.

Even the "labradoodle" breeding standard leaves room for any coat type, colour, size, shape etc. Bred since the 70s and they still can't breed with any predictability.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

smeagle said:


> Yep.
> 
> We have some puppy farmers here who breed what they like to call second and third generation crosses, but they are just breeding crossbreed to crossbreed without any thought to type and no long term breeding plan.
> 
> Even the "labradoodle" breeding standard leaves room for any coat type, colour, size, shape etc. Bred since the 70s and they still can't breed with any predictability.


Think you maybe wrong there,sorry to correct you their are many good labradoodle breeder's in this Country also.
Just to point out as well not all PUPPY FARMER'S breed cross breeds.
I actually own Labradoodles and Goldendoodles.
I did not pay a vast amount for mine.
Some people do pay alot of money for this breed but that is fine too,they are more expensive as the good breeder's do all the health tests etc.
Many pedigree dogs can also cost a vast amount of money too.
But if you do your research as with any breed of dog there are good breeder's out there.
Good breeder'a nd bad breeder's in both pedigree and non pedigree dog world.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Think you maybe wrong there,sorry to correct you their are many good labradoodle breeder's in this Country also.
> Just to point out as well not all PUPPY FARMER'S breed cross breeds.
> I actually own Labradoodles and Goldendoodles.
> I did not pay a vast amount for mine.
> ...


I didn't say all crossbreeders are puppy farmers. Or that puppy farmers only breed crossbreeds 

I said there are puppy farmers here who claim to be breeding past first generation crosses.

There are many reasons why I prefer purebred dogs over crossbreeds, namely that I know what kind of dog will suit my lifestyle and for that reason, I like purebreds for their predictability. I like researching to find a breed suited to me and knowing what I am getting in type, size, conformation, temperament, coat type, drive etc. You don't get that with crossbreeds which is why they are not for me.

I don't really care what dogs you own - just as I'm sure you don't care what dogs I own  I don't agree with intentional crossbreeding and I hate seeing my breeds ruined by people who don't care about them, be that backyard breeders breeding unregistered "purebreds", dodgy registered breeders or people who use them in crossbreeding.

I've thoroughly read the "labradoodle" breed standard and it allows for any size, coat type, colour, build etc. You can argue all you like, but the fact is that even after thirty odd years they are still not breeding to type. Some people may not mind getting a dog that is essentially a genetic lottery, but it's not my cup of tea.


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## Rox (Apr 10, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> This was taken from there website regarding new puppies,
> They will be vet checked , insured , microchipped ,and have a *14 day warranty,*why different prices for different coloured pups,do they cost more to rear ?
> 
> Any breeder worth their salt charges price on the quality of the litter produced,not because of their colour,or they are rare,any breeder that does this would be best avoided in my opinion.
> Sorry this sets alarm bells ringing for me.


the couloured ones are the 2nd gen, hence why they they must be coming down in price.

My point of the post was to give a view of what a puggle is actualy like from experiance, not just coming up with theorys.

We did alot of research into puppy farms etc and are very much against it. I've seen this place and would recommend it if you want a decent puggle. They care alot for the breed and are against people just breeding them for the sake of it, there has been alot of thought put into it.

I don't really like the label "designer" but thats more of a media term, they call them designer because people want them. I think thats were alot of the hate comes from for these breeds. At the end of the day, everyone has a dessginer dog in one form, they are all cross breeds and bred for a purpose.

didn't want to offend anyone, just thought i would talk from experiance rather than a quick "google"


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## Linny Buffy & Spike (Feb 3, 2009)

Louisa K said:


> I've read some good/some bad info on puggles (pug x beagle)
> 
> Just wondered if anyone owns a puggle, what are they like as a family pet and what's the general view on puggles?


Hi,

We have a great little Puggle named Baz at our local park. He's a terrific little guy, and he won quite a few ribbons in agility. He loves playing fetch, and is very social - he runs around the dog park making sure he says hi to everyone! He doesn't seem to have any of the breathing difficulties that some pugs have, either.

There are quite a few Puggle forums, clubs and message boards, particularly in the US, so if you Google them you'll probably get more information from people who are actually familiar with Puggles. Unfortunately most people here would never have even met one 

Best wishes,
Linny


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Rox said:


> At the end of the day, everyone has a dessginer dog in one form, they are all cross breeds and bred for a purpose.


I don't mean to offend, just a curious question, but what purpose does the Puggle have?


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Linny said:


> Unfortunately most people here would never have even met one


I've met a few... and they did have breathing problems, as their face was just like a Pugs? As someone said, I don't think there's a set look for the dog is there? They're all different?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

He he, I havent read all this thread but I have to say if you want a puggle get a puggle! Just take usual puppy buying precautions, so healthy pups, and meet as many members of the pups family as possible to give you an idea as to temperament.
Both breeds are fun, beagles deaf ear and occassional stubborness seem to be the only temperament flaws of both breeds and crossing can reduce the physical flaws of the pug. I also like the fact that puggles closely resemble what pugs looked like a hundred or so years ago before they were ruined.
Get one and post lots of pics please!!


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Rox said:


> the couloured ones are the 2nd gen, hence why they they must be coming down in price.
> 
> My point of the post was to give a view of what a puggle is actualy like from experiance, not just coming up with theorys.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting your experience,I am sure you love your dog and it was your choice to choose the breeder you did.
However as I previously stated,alarm bells would have been ringing for me,this kennel is licensed by the LA which means nothing to me as Puppy Farmers are also licensed by the LA,they have alot of dogs at stud, and seem to be breeding an awful lot of pups and as for the warrenty ?!? They are selling a puppy,a live animal not a flamin appliance! :incazzato:

Sorry not a breeder I would choose.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Rox said:


> At the end of the day, everyone has a dessginer dog in one form, they are all cross breeds and bred for a purpose.


What purpose does a Puggle have?

And no, the breeds I own certainly aren't crossbreeds. I certainly wouldn't call a breed that has been recognised for hundreds of years a crossbreed. One of my breeds is actually one of 14 Ancient breeds who evolved naturally and was further developed in later centuries as a working breed.



Linny said:


> Hi,
> 
> Unfortunately most people here would never have even met one


Unfortunately I have met pug/beagle crosses, as well as a variety of other designer mutts. The pug/beagle crosses I have come into contact with have been hyper active, with breathing issues, and much more than their owner bargained for.


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## Rox (Apr 10, 2009)

RoseForTheDead said:


> I don't mean to offend, just a curious question, but what purpose does the Puggle have?


basicly, if you go back further, pug were bred to be conpanion dogs (cuddly etc) and beagles to be hunters (energetic). A very experianced breeder of both breeds thought the temproment of qualitys of both breeds would make the perfect family pet. I would have to agree with


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Thanks for posting your experience,I am sure you love your dog and it was your choice to choose the breeder you did.
> However as I previously stated,alarm bells would have been ringing for me,this kennel is licensed by the LA which means nothing to me as Puppy Farmers are also licensed by the LA,they have alot of dogs at stud, and seem to be breeding an awful lot of pups and as for the warrenty ?!? They are selling a puppy,a live animal not a flamin appliance! :incazzato:


LOL sallyanne - I can't even think of an appliance that only comes with a 14 day guarantee!! Unbelievable. Both my purebred dogs came with lifetime support and health guarantees from their breeders. I would expect no less!



catz4m8z said:


> He he, I havent read all this thread but I have to say if you want a puggle get a puggle! Just take usual puppy buying precautions, so healthy pups, and meet as many members of the pups family as possible to give you an idea as to temperament.
> Both breeds are fun, beagles deaf ear and occassional stubborness seem to be the only temperament flaws of both breeds and crossing can reduce the physical flaws of the pug. I also like the fact that puggles closely resemble what pugs looked like a hundred or so years ago before they were ruined.
> Get one and post lots of pics please!!


You can't 'get an idea of temperament' with a crossbreed. It could take on either characteristics of its parent breeds, which means that a "puggle" can and still does have the facial construction of a pug.

Not to mention the health problems like joint issues that you run into when you cross two breeds of completely different size and structure.

I'm sure pug owners would be incredibly offended by your comment that their breed is "ruined". I know quite a few pugs, including breeders, who own happy, healthy and absolutely lovely little pugs. I know of one who is an obedience and agility champion too.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Rox said:


> basicly, if you go back further, pug were bred to be conpanion dogs (cuddly etc) and beagles to be hunters (energetic). A very experianced breeder of both breeds thought the temproment of qualitys of both breeds would make the perfect family pet. I would have to agree with


They can't be that experienced if they think that crossing the two breeds would be the right thing to do!

Why would you cross a dog who is bred to be a companion lap dog with a high energy, high drive working breed? The mind boggles.


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## Rox (Apr 10, 2009)

smeagle said:


> Unfortunately I have met pug/beagle crosses, as well as a variety of other designer mutts. The pug/beagle crosses I have come into contact with have been hyper active, with breathing issues, and much more than their owner bargained for.


Intresting, never spoken to a owner of a true puggle or spoken to a vet who has come accross one with breathing problems. However it goes to show you need to go to a good breeder.

Would agree they do have energy, but not hard to handle like a beagle could be to a unexperianced owner. I think the puggles enery is a great plus! again goes back to what you like :smile5:


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Rox said:


> basicly, if you go back further, pug were bred to be conpanion dogs (cuddly etc) and beagles to be hunters (energetic). A very experianced breeder of both breeds thought the temproment of qualitys of both breeds would make the perfect family pet. I would have to agree with


I disagree,a responsible ethical breeder would not cross two very different breeds.
What about the faults of both breeds,do they not enter into it,do pups only take on the plus points of each breed ?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

smeagle said:


> I didn't say all crossbreeders are puppy farmers. Or that puppy farmers only breed crossbreeds
> 
> I said there are puppy farmers here who claim to be breeding past first generation crosses.
> 
> ...


I bet you have read alot about labradoodles?
I know a few people who have done there research into them,but still are very uneducated about the breed.
Every breed starts somewhere so give them a chance as well.
What dogs have you got ?
Didn't they start somewhere.
Many breeders of all dogs are still trying to get breeds in tip top shape,and it will continue thats why you breed dogs.
Yes there are backyard breeders out there and puppy farmers but not all have crossbreeds,many types of dog breeds i do believe.
I know many Standard Poodle owners who take back hander's to breed Labradoodles then go on other forums and slate them.
Take the money and run.:001_tt2:
I do not think thats right either.
You might as well just leave the cross breed dogs alone as they are here to stay.
No matter what silly names people give them.


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## Rox (Apr 10, 2009)

smeagle said:


> They can't be that experienced if they think that crossing the two breeds would be the right thing to do!
> 
> Why would you cross a dog who is bred to be a companion lap dog with a high energy, high drive working breed? The mind boggles.


To get the best of both breeds, it works :wink:

why would you keep breeding a dog to get the perfect one to show? without the personality


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Rox said:


> Intresting, never spoken to a owner of a true puggle or spoken to a vet who has come accross one with breathing problems. However it goes to show you need to go to a good breeder.
> 
> Would agree they do have energy, but not hard to handle like a beagle could be to a unexperianced owner. I think the puggles enery is a great plus! again goes back to what you like :smile5:


I love the energy my beagle has, it is what makes her such a great dog!

How could a breed be able to predict what type of facial or muzzle structure their pups have? If pugs have problems, and they are breeding from pugs, how can they possibly prevent the pups from carrying the same issues? I mean, they can't control genetics, right?

It is the same with the often touted difficult to handle aspect of a beagle. If a beagle is hard to handle (for example, stubborn, which I believe pugs are too) what is to stop pups from having the same temperament or drive? It's not like you can pick and chose which genetic traits you want the pups to have. Crossbreeding is a genetic lottery.

ETA: And what is a "true" Puggle?


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Rox said:


> To get the best of both breeds, it works :wink:
> 
> why would you keep breeding a dog to get the perfect one to show? without the personality


LOL, Sorry Rox, have crossbreeders found a magical way to control genetics?

What makes you think all purebred dogs are bred for showing and showing only? My beagle came from a registered breeder who shows her dogs, she has been breeding for thirty years. She breeds for health, temperament and conformation - it is about a combination of traits, as you are breeding to a breed standard - that is what makes purebred predictable.

My beagle has tons of personality and more, thank you  She is everything a beagle should be, to quote the breed standard, she is a merry little hound  And it just so happens that she has great conformation and pedigree papers too.


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## Rox (Apr 10, 2009)

smeagle said:


> I love the energy my beagle has, it is what makes her such a great dog!
> 
> How could a breed be able to predict what type of facial or muzzle structure their pups have? If pugs have problems, and they are breeding from pugs, how can they possibly prevent the pups from carrying the same issues? I mean, they can't control genetics, right?
> 
> ...


well i'm no expert in genetics, however every puggle owner i've spoken to and read, they all have the same traits. It must work, they have been doing it in the US for over 25 years now. I totaly agree they can look slightly different but thats what makes them unique, all humans don't look alike!

I totaly understand how it upset some people, epecialy breeders themselfs, my point is the pug/beagle cross isn't a bad one.


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## Rox (Apr 10, 2009)

smeagle said:


> My beagle has tons of personality and more, thank you  She is everything a beagle should be, to quote the breed standard, she is a merry little hound  And it just so happens that she has great conformation and pedigree papers too.


totaly agree more i really wanted one myself.

you got to start somewhere though


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

smeagle said:


> I love the energy my beagle has, it is what makes her such a great dog!
> 
> How could a breed be able to predict what type of facial or muzzle structure their pups have? If pugs have problems, and they are breeding from pugs, how can they possibly prevent the pups from carrying the same issues? I mean, they can't control genetics, right?
> 
> ...


I agree that crossbreeding is a lottery,you simply don't know what traits,positives and negatives these pups will take on.
And yes they will take on negatives too,we can't control genetics and until such a litter is produced and bred true to type over many generations you simply can't say they will take the temprement of the Sire and health from Dam,that is absolutely pants!


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Rox said:


> well i'm no expert in genetics, however every puggle owner i've spoken to and read, they all have the same traits. It must work, they have been doing it in the US for over 25 years now. I totaly agree they can look slightly different but thats what makes them unique, all humans don't look alike!
> 
> I totaly understand how it upset some people, epecialy breeders themselfs, my point is the pug/beagle cross isn't a bad one.


How can they all have the same traits if they look different? I have met a few and not one of them looked the same, or had the same drive, temperament, structure etc.

My point is that I hate seeing my breed ruined by people who don't give a crap about them  Breeders of beagles breed them for the love and the betterment of the breed. Ask any beagle breeder - they will tell you that you can't get a better dog! Of course, they are biased, and will turn potential puppy buyers away if they feel a beagle won't suit them. They would never dream of crossing beags with something else to make it "better" - they are what they are and they love them for it!

Why can't we just leave our breeds the way they are? If I didn't like certain traits about a breed, I wouldn't get one, and I certainly wouldn't dream of buying a cross between it and another breed... what if the very traits I didn't like ended up in my puppy? You cannot control genetics, which is why crossbreeding is a genetic gamble. I wouldn't gamble on a cross on the notion that I will magically get the best of both breeds as you have no way of knowing if that is what you will actually end up with.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Its the same old thing again on this thread.
Some Pedigree peeps not liking crossbreeds.
I get the same with Poodle Breeder's about our Labradoodles.
Think its because they are worried about their breed's.
Which is fine,but i think there is room enough in this large world for all.
Just as long as everything is done correctly with breeding whats the problem?
Their have been crossbreed dogs since the year dot.
Ok they have not had all the silly names but i bet the Puggle was about then?
Same as the Labradoodle.
Most people buy the dogs they want and like.
By the way i am a crossbreed is their room for me in this world.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> A very experianced breeder of both breeds thought the temproment of qualitys of both breeds would make the perfect family pet


or thought they might make a packet more like 



> have crossbreeders found a magical way to control genetics?


That's it...smeagle you're a genius..... It's a question I have pondered long and hard over.... How do designer cross breeders manage to control what genes from their different breeds are reproduced in order to substantiate the claims they make? Short of having a laboratory of genetic engineers at their disposal, which would cost such huge sums that even with their current extortionate price tags they would never cover the cost, I've not been able to come up with an answer.

But you have..  they use magic


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

I don't mind designer breeds but pugs are pretty sick dogs from what I can gather and theres no guarantee that the beagle is going to cancel out the bad genes and you could end up with the worst of both breeds.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Rox said:


> I totaly understand how it upset some people, epecialy breeders themselfs, my point is the pug/beagle cross isn't a bad one.


That's your opinion,the pug is known to have back problems so we mate with a taller dog,increasing the risk of spinal problems,beacuse of construction problems,i.e short legs but larger body etc.....

Good responsible breeders will never justify a good reason to be breeding two very different breeds,
Pug breeders are not happy about the indiscriminate breeding of them nor are Beagle Breeders.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

All dogs were cross somewhere down the line years back.
If you want a pure breed get a wolf.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

I know that they're all mixes but they were generally bred for a purpose puggles have no discernible function that I can gather.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Its the same old thing again on this thread.
> Some Pedigree peeps not liking crossbreeds.
> I get the same with Poodle Breeder's about our Labradoodles.
> Think its because they are worried about their breed's.
> ...


Damn right I am worried about my breed!

I am incredibly worried about what careless breeders are doing to it. I worry about backyard breeders, dodgy registered breeders and crossbreeders who want to change the dogs we love so much for no reason beyond "we'll magically eliminate the things people hate about this breed!" or "the puppies will be really cute" or because they can make a quick buck out of crossing them with something else.

And worse of all, they sell them on to people who believe they have bought dogs that are some superior to their parent breeds, that they are better, or less prone to "undesirable" traits scenting or stubbornness. It's that magic again 

For the record - why on earth would anyone want a beagle who didn't want to scent? Or who wasn't a typical, stubborn hound? If they were after a dog who didn't have those traits then they better start looking at other breeds, because it is those very traits that I LOVE about beagles and that makes them... well, beagles!

BTW - I own a crossbreed dog. She has various health issues, but I love her, and I think she is wonderful. Would I buy one again though? No, they aren't for me, and neither are the people who breed them.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Colsy said:


> All dogs were cross somewhere down the line years back.
> If you want a pure breed get a wolf.


Yes they were but alot more though went into it back then,now it's a case of throw two dogs together,create a silly name and hey presto,a rare breed with only the postive traits of both dogs appearing, and making the breeder a small fortune, How fantastic!

Lets hope that they don't suffer the same fate as many other breeds do and that they don't suffer the anguish of going through a very overstretched rescue system when they don't turn out as they were supposed to,or have undesirable traits.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Colsy said:


> All dogs were cross somewhere down the line years back.
> If you want a pure breed get a wolf.


LOL - did you see my previous post that addressed this very issue?

One of my breeds is one of 14 Ancient breeders that evolved naturally, and were further developed down the track to suit a specific working purpose.

My other breed - Beagles - might have been crossed with a couple of other working scent hounds, initially, but I would hardly call a breed that has been recognised and working for hundreds of years a crossbreed.

The developement of the purebred we have today was nothing like the intentional designer mutt crossbreeding that is so prolific at the moment.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Same as I said they crossed good gundogs to make a better one, good herding dogs to make better ones etc. Some of the crosses today were the same labradoodles good working dogs that don't shed, sprockers combining the best of the breeds to make a good gun dog. Picking two random breeds and throwing them together I'm not big on especially if you're talking about such sick breeds like pugs. But if they're all health tested with a responsible breeder and the mix is going to be reasonably healthy I don't mind


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Genetically, most breeds are miles apart, even if you just look at size, you have mismatch to start off with in Puggles.

Many traits are polygenetic, they have been selected for for years, in breeds. By mating to another breed you are unravelling those selected traits. It is therefore very difficult or almost impossible to gain some sort of breed identity or uniformity, as you are getting a huge mix of all the traits. Even in one litter all dogs could potentially look different and grow up into hugely different looking dogs. Add to that the quite odd looking often sub standard "pedigree" dogs used often by BYB to make these crosses, then it is essentially a mess.
If, of course there was some sort of control then you could have a proper breed standard and those that fell out with it would be removed from breeding and eventually you would get a "proper" breed.

Many working dogs evolved into breeds as the work dictated the dogs they needed. No point in having a very short legged collie who couldn't run all day, or a long legged Jack Russell who couldn't get down a rabbit hole, or a 30Kg lap dog.

These new "breeds", appear in the main to have little restraint. They are on to a "winner" because *all* puppies are cute and most dogs are fantastic pets, no matter what their breeding.

The whole point of having a pedigree dog is to have uniformity so that you know almost exactly what it will grow into, with these new "cross -breeds" you can never be certain at all.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> All dogs were cross somewhere down the line years back.
> If you want a pure breed get a wolf.


The point is that breeds were developed with a function in mind and a clear aim of what they wanted to end up with and reasons why. They weren't simply put together because it was thought it would make a nice mix for a pet



> I know that they're all mixes but they were generally bred for a purpose puggles have no discernible function that I can gather.


There isn't one except to be a pet in our fashion consious, 'must have something different' society.

I find it interesting that those dogs that are deliberately bred for a geniune reason, ie lab/golden for blind/assistance, lurchers etc. are not amongst the popular designer breeds bred as pets.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Because a celebrity hasn't got one maybe. Lurchers are the sighthound/collie mixes right? Bred for speed and intelligence I have no problems with that juts throwing random breeds together isn't a good idea.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Nicky09 said:


> Because a celebrity hasn't got one maybe. Lurchers are the sighthound/collie mixes right? Bred for speed and intelligence I have no problems with that juts throwing random breeds together isn't a good idea.


Throwing pugs and beagles together is about as random as you can get, IMO!


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## Linny Buffy & Spike (Feb 3, 2009)

Dundee said:


> The point is that breeds were developed with a function in mind and a clear aim of what they wanted to end up with and reasons why. They weren't simply put together because it was thought it would make a nice mix for a pet


Maybe they should be. After all, the majority of dogs today end up as just that - pets.

I work in rescue, and we see a lot of working dogs relinquished because they are temperamentally unsuited to life in the suburban back yard. We very seldom see the dogs that are purpose-bred as pets (ie Puggles, Cockapoos etc) ending up in shelters.

Best wishes,
Linny


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Linny said:


> Maybe they should be. After all, the majority of dogs today end up as just that - pets.
> 
> I work in rescue, and we see a lot of working dogs relinquished because they are temperamentally unsuited to life in the suburban back yard. We very seldom see the dogs that are purpose-bred as pets (ie Puggles, Cockapoos etc) ending up in shelters.
> 
> ...


You do post quite a few DDs available for rescue on your crossbreed forum though, Linny!

The majority of dogs in shelters ARE crossbreeds, they may not be the cute fluffies you prefer to deal with, but that's not to say they weren't bred solely for the pet market. What else would crossbreeds be bred for? Not that many are bred for working purposes, let's be honest, the majority are slapped together to breed pets.

I don't really understand your point about purebreds - most are kept as pets, first and foremost, even those who compete in dog sports like showing, or ones who are bred from. The point is that they were originally bred to fulfill a purpose, and that is what the breed standard was developed around and why they have the traits they have today. It is that breed standard and those traits that help us, the pet buyers, chose what breed is best suited to our lifestyle.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think a lot of dogs end up in rescue, apart from those where personal circumstances dictate, because 
a) the owner liked the look rather than researching the breed
or
b) the breeder liked the money rather than breeding a stable pet.

I am sure once these dogs hit the streets in any numbers they will end up in rescue as well.


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

Nicky09 said:


> Because a celebrity hasn't got one maybe. Lurchers are the sighthound/collie mixes right? Bred for speed and intelligence I have no problems with that juts throwing random breeds together isn't a good idea.


Lurcher - Crossbred Sighthound. *
Between a Greyhound, Whippet, Deerhound or a Saluki AND a Terrier (usually a Bedlington or a Border) or a border Collie or a Staffordshire Bull Terrier.
*


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I think a lot of dogs end up in rescue, apart from those where personal circumstances dictate, because
> a) the owner liked the look rather than researching the breed
> or
> b) the breeder liked the money rather than breeding a stable pet.
> ...


I think it is largely because people don't chose the right dog for their lifestyle. It is up to breeders to properly screen their puppy buyers, and it is up to breeders to be responsible for what they bred by taking back any pup of theirs that needs rehoming.

If breeders screened their puppy buyers carefully they would be able to weed out the ones who are not the right fit for their dogs. They should take the lead from the ethical pedigree breeders who also have contracts puppy buyers sign that stipulate that, if at any time in the dog's life, it needs to be rehomed, it MUST come back to the breeder - not the pound or a rescue group.

We'd have a lot less dogs in shelters if breeders were responsible for what they bred and screened their puppy buyers properly.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> We'd have a lot less dogs in shelters if breeders were responsible for what they bred and screened their puppy buyers properly.


Very true. 
Though, some buyers despite signing contracts will not contact the breeder when they need to rehome, the breeder finds out through third parties.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Very true.
> Though, some buyers despite signing contracts will not contact the breeder when they need to rehome, the breeder finds out through third parties.


Yes it's very unfortunate when that happens, although many breeders I know keep in contact with their puppy buyers.

But that is why I believe it should be mandatory that breeders contact details be listed on the dog's microchips, as well as their owners. That way, if they are handed into rescue or pounds the breeders are easily contactable.


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## Linny Buffy & Spike (Feb 3, 2009)

smeagle said:


> You do post quite a few DDs available for rescue on your crossbreed forum though, Linny!
> 
> The majority of dogs in shelters ARE crossbreeds, they may not be the cute fluffies you prefer to deal with, but that's not to say they weren't bred solely for the pet market. What else would crossbreeds be bred for? Not that many are bred for working purposes, let's be honest, the majority are slapped together to breed pets.
> 
> I don't really understand your point about purebreds - most are kept as pets, first and foremost, even those who compete in dog sports like showing, or ones who are bred from. The point is that they were originally bred to fulfill a purpose, and that is what the breed standard was developed around and why they have the traits they have today. It is that breed standard and those traits that help us, the pet buyers, chose what breed is best suited to our lifestyle.


We rehome maybe one or two "Designer Dogs" dogs a month, Smeagle, and that's for the whole of Australia. Many of those are being rehomed because their owners are going into retirement homes etc, and other people-related reasons - nothing to do with the dogs themselves, nor with their temperament.

Most of the crossbreds that do end up in shelters are not "Designer Dogs", ie purpose-bred crossbreeds. The ones we see are mainly cattle dog, terrier or bull breed crosses, usually from accidental matings, and from people who either can't be bothered getting their dogs desexed, or think it's "unnatural" or "unmanly", but then don't want to waste their precious time finding homes for the pups.

The vast majority of people today don't work their dogs. Their dog's sole function is to be simply a friend and companion - ie a pet. That's probably one of the most important "jobs" a dog can do. I think there's is a very good argument to be made for people who want a dog as a pet to choose one that is primarily bred for that very purpose. There are many vets, geneticists, and others working in animal welfare who agree.

Best wishes,
Linny


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Linny said:


> We rehome maybe one or two "Designer Dogs" dogs a month, Smeagle, and that's for the whole of Australia. Many of those are being rehomed because their owners are going into retirement homes etc, and other people-related reasons - nothing to do with the dogs themselves, nor with their temperament.
> 
> The majority of crossbreds that do end up in shelters are not "Designer Dogs", ie purpose-bred crossbreeds. The ones we see are mainly cattle dog, terrier or bull breed crosses, usually from accidental matings, and from people who either can't be bothered getting their dogs desexed, or think it's "unnatural" or "unmanly", but then don't want to waste their precious time finding homes for the pups.
> 
> ...


So your opinion is that purebred dogs aren't bred as pets? Do people who breed or show their dogs, or work them or compete in dog sports, not consider their dogs pets, too? :confused5:

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say all or most of the 1000s of crossbreeds in shelters were from accidental matings. Is it really that unbelievable that backyards breeders purposely breed crossbreeds, for a variety of reasons?

ETA: I will have to tell my two purebred dogs to get working, they thought after all these years that they were pets... PMSL.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

i think a big concern is that so many are now being bred pretty soon there will be an epidemic in rescues, as is the case for most really popular breeds.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

I think there is some confusion over the term "designer dog". It is often used as a derogatory term to mean either A) a purposely 'designed' dog created from mating two different breeds or B) a 'designer' dog as in 'designer' jeans, expensive, fashionable, the _in thing_.

I find it strange that all crossbreeds/mongrels are lumped under the term "designer dog" when arguing a negative case against them. To me, not so long ago the pure bred Chihuahua was the latest designer dog, seen peeking out from Paris Hilton's _designer_ handbag. Some of us simply own mongrels because we choose to, not because we like to have them as a fashion accessory.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i think a big concern is that so many are now being bred pretty soon there will be an epidemic in rescues, as is the case for most really popular breeds.


They already are, Noushka. The vast majority of dogs in rescues and pounds are crossbreeds.



louise5031 said:


> I find it strange that all crossbreeds/mongrels are lumped under the term "designer dog" when arguing a negative case against them. To me, not so long ago the pure bred Chihuahua was the latest designer dog, seen peeking out from Paris Hilton's _designer_ handbag. Some of us simply own mongrels because we choose to, not because we like to have them as a fashion accessory.


LOL Louise - purebreds, the original designer dogs 

I have no problem if people chose to own a crossbreed. If I wanted one I'd pop down to the local pound and get an adult that I felt best suited me.


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## Linny Buffy & Spike (Feb 3, 2009)

smeagle said:


> So your opinion is that purebred dogs aren't bred as pets? Do people who breed or show their dogs, or work them or compete in dog sports, not consider their dogs pets, too? :confused5:


Not at all. You seemed to be saying that dogs bred as pets have no purpose. What I am saying is that the job of being "just a pet" is equally (and perhaps more) important as being bred to hunt, or to herd, or to race etc.

Best wishes,
Linny


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## Linny Buffy & Spike (Feb 3, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i think a big concern is that so many are now being bred pretty soon there will be an epidemic in rescues, as is the case for most really popular breeds.


Good point, Noushka. There aren't that many Puggles, Cockapoos etc turning up in shelters yet, but if their popularity continues to increase, and more puppy mills jump on the bandwagon, it won't be long before there will be. Exactly the same thing has happened with popular purebreds in the past.

Best wishes,
Linny


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Linny said:


> Not at all. You seemed to be saying that dogs bred as pets have no purpose. What I am saying is that the job of being "just a pet" is equally (and perhaps more) important as being bred to hunt, or to herd, or to race etc.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Linny


I don't understand breeding dogs 'just because'. I also don't understand what you are inferring by this comment:



> I think there's is a very good argument to be made for people who want a dog as a pet to choose one that is primarily bred for that very purpose.


So because purebred dogs were developed for a specific purpose they aren't pets? Or we need to breed crossbreeds because they fill a gap that purebred can't fill?

Purebred dogs were developed for a purpose, and that purpose is what has led to the character and traits that make up the breed standard, the reason they still breed predictably even centuries later. Today, there are many reasons why purebred dogs continue to be bred, quite a few are still bred primarily for working ability. Many are bred for a combination of traits, and I don't know a single breed where breeders breed without aiming for the dog to be a suitable pet for the right person.

That's the great thing about purebred dogs, they fill a variety of purposes and tasks, including making great pets


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Linny said:


> Good point, Noushka. There aren't that many Puggles, Cockapoos etc turning up in shelters yet, but if their popularity continues to increase, and more puppy mills jump on the bandwagon, it won't be long before there will be. Exactly the same thing has happened with popular purebreds in the past.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Linny


yes this is the problem, as it is for my own breed as they too become more popular


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## Linny Buffy & Spike (Feb 3, 2009)

smeagle said:


> I don't understand breeding dogs 'just because'. I also don't understand what you are inferring by this comment:
> 
> So because purebred dogs were developed for a specific purpose they aren't pets? Or we need to breed crossbreeds because they fill a gap that purebred can't fill?
> 
> ...


I think we are perhaps talking at cross-purposes. By all means, working dogs can make great pets. I've owned and loved them myself.

What I am saying is that people who want a dog as "just a pet" should be able to choose a dog that is bred to be "just a pet". Being a friend and companion is every bit as important, and they don't necessarily have to have some additional "job" or "higher purpose" to give them a reason to exist 

Best wishes,
Linny


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Linny said:


> I think we are perhaps talking at cross-purposes. By all means, working dogs can make great pets. I've owned and loved them myself.
> 
> What I am saying is that dogs that people that want a dog as "just a pet" should be able to choose a dog that is bred to be "just a pet". Being a pet is just as important, and they don't necessarily have to have some additional "job" or "higher purpose" to give them a reason to exist


Neither of my current dogs were bred as working dogs - my Siberian's breeders do recreational sledding but it's just another type of dog sport. The same way that I run my beagle at lurecoursing, it tests her original purpose, but it does not make her a working dog. Unless you consider dogs who compete in sports like the ones mentioned above or shows, obedience etc working dogs?

Both of my dogs were bought as pets. I did not buy my beagle with the intention of competing in obedience (and how many people would chose a beagle for this purpose, lol) but here we are, looking a trialling later in the year.

Purebred dogs are bred to be pet dogs, they just so happen to be bred for other purposes too.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

I just keeping asking myself Why they are all different.
The first step in creating a new breed involves a definite vision of what the breed will look like and the writing of a breed standard to describe it. For example, what characteristics must a Yorkie-Poo have in order for it to be considered a Yorkie-Poo? What is a Puggle or a Labradoodle supposed to look and act like? To date, no breeders of these &#8220;new&#8221; breeds have even taken that first step. Yes The Labradoodle has a Standard seemingly but it is so wide that it could actually describe a few Breeds.
There has been no agreement among breeders even as to what a Puggle is supposed to be other than a cross between a Beagle and a Pug. After years of mixing these breeds, no two Puggles look anything alike imo; neither are any Yorkiepoos or Labradoodles similar to one another. There has not been any serious effort at all to create a distinct breed that the KC would recognize after all the years since these Designer Dogs arrived


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Linny said:


> We rehome maybe one or two "Designer Dogs" dogs a month, Smeagle, and that's for the whole of Australia. Many of those are being rehomed because their owners are going into retirement homes etc, and other people-related reasons - nothing to do with the dogs themselves, nor with their temperament.
> 
> Most of the crossbreds that do end up in shelters are not "Designer Dogs", ie purpose-bred crossbreeds. The ones we see are mainly cattle dog, terrier or bull breed crosses, usually from accidental matings, and from people who either can't be bothered getting their dogs desexed, or think it's "unnatural" or "unmanly", but then don't want to waste their precious time finding homes for the pups.
> 
> ...


This is from 2007 so IMO thinks will be a lot worse now
AdelaideNow... Designer dog breeding disaster


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Great post and link Clueless.


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## Linny Buffy & Spike (Feb 3, 2009)

clueless said:


> I just keeping asking myself Why they are all different.
> The first step in creating a new breed involves a definite vision of what the breed will look like and the writing of a breed standard to describe it. For example, what characteristics must a Yorkie-Poo have in order for it to be considered a Yorkie-Poo? What is a Puggle or a Labradoodle supposed to look and act like? To date, no breeders of these "new" breeds have even taken that first step. Yes The Labradoodle has a Standard seemingly but it is so wide that it could actually describe a few Breeds.
> There has been no agreement among breeders even as to what a Puggle is supposed to be other than a cross between a Beagle and a Pug. After years of mixing these breeds, no two Puggles look anything alike imo; neither are any Yorkiepoos or Labradoodles similar to one another. There has not been any serious effort at all to create a distinct breed that the KC would recognize after all the years since these Designer Dogs arrived


I'm not that big fan of creating new "breeds" myself, Clueless. But if you have your heart set on it, by all means go for it. I'll just stick to my crossbreeds, thanks 

Best wishes,
Linny


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Linny said:


> I'm not that big fan of creating new "breeds" myself, Clueless. But if you have your heart set on it, by all means go for it. I'll just stick to my crossbreeds, thanks
> 
> Best wishes,
> Linny


Nah no Thanks Linny I will stick to improving my Purebreed Cresteds


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Everyones opinions are so different, I'd probably say 50% like these oodle, uggle etc breeds (and I've found usually because they own one, so they feel the need to defend it...) and the other 50% don't like them...

There's so many issues on health and why _make_ cross breeds when there's hundreds of accidental crosses in rescue centres... and so on...

No one will ever agree. :tongue:


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

RoseForTheDead said:


> Everyones opinions are so different, I'd probably say 50% like these oodle, uggle etc breeds (and I've found usually because they own one, so they feel the need to defend it...) and the other 50% don't like them...
> 
> There's so many issues on health and why _make_ cross breeds when there's hundreds of accidental crosses in rescue centres... and so on...
> 
> No one will ever agree. :tongue:


Very true Rose for the Dead But it makes the 21 pages make interesting reading after a nightshift LOL


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

RoseForTheDead said:


> There's so many issues on health and why _make_ cross breeds when there's hundreds of accidental crosses in rescue centres


I dont own a designer dog myself, but i do think the whole "why intentially cross when there are lots in rescues" is a bit redundant as the same could be said for pure breed dogs....
Some breeds are far and few between in rescues, but not JRT's, Patterdales terriers, staffies, rotties, DDB's, Labs.......

Just my two pence worth :001_cool:

edit: i know you werent saying that rose, and was using an example...but i see it said alot


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## Guinevere13 (Mar 31, 2008)

I have found, looking at pictures of Labradoodles and actual dogs, that there are similarities in the breed. They have three types of coat, (straight, curly and wool) and those with the same coats do look very similar but all share the same loving, mischievious temperament. 

I have owned pedigree dogs in the past, as well as mongrels. None of them were used for the purpose they were originally bred for, they were all family pets. I researched for a long time before we got a Labradoodle and I did so because of the temperament. The fact that I did not know what it would look like when it grew up was not a problem as long as it fitted in with our family, which, I might add, she has. She is a huge hound with an even bigger heart and a lovely woolly coat. An excellent example of her breed.

I am not trying to convince anyone who is against cross breeds that they are the best thing since sliced bread as I know they do not want to be convinced, merely giving my experience of owning a wonderful dog whatever breed she is.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Savahl said:


> I dont own a designer dog myself, but i do think the whole "why intentially cross when there are lots in rescues" is a bit redundant as the same could be said for pure breed dogs....
> Some breeds are far and few between in rescues, but not JRT's, Patterdales terriers, staffies, rotties, DDB's, Labs.......


I agree, good post.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Yes i defend my breed just as all of you would defend yours.
My dogs are not designer dogs,mutts or mongrels they are my pets.
I may not like a few breeds of dogs but i am never offensive to anyone.
As i have said before don't like it don't buy it.
But your all never going to give up are you how many threads on this forum have been about the so called designer dogs.
Its very hurtful and there is no need for any of it.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Colsy said:


> But your all never going to give up are you how many threads on this forum have been about the so called designer dogs.


I think for as long as irresponsable people breed these dogs, and give them a silly name and price tag, _just_ to make money - and people buy them, then there will always be issues with it.

Of course I'm not tarring people with the same brush as BYB's... there are some responsable people who do check the health of the dog, and the home means more than the cash, but sadly it seems with these dogs it's just quick cash.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I don't think anyone is against the dogs themselves.

The rationale for breeding them is under question, the health reasons are against doing it and the people who churn them out as they are "fashionable" are definitely questionable. 

People always take things so personally, it is not a personal vendetta against owners, it is the bigger picture that needs looking at.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I don't think anyone is against the dogs themselves.
> 
> The rationale for breeding them is under question, the health reasons are against doing it and the people who churn them out as they are "fashionable" are definitely questionable.
> 
> People always take things so personally, it is not a personal vendetta against owners, it is the bigger picture that needs looking at.


Agreed. Good post


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

So take Elmo then he has no paperwork etc,nothing no health tests.
Should he have been pts?
Yes you class him a designer breed.
I rescued him at a price after he had 3 homes at 20 weeks.
What should i have done with him.
Not bought him ?
I agree there are some bad breeders and this is true with pedigree dogs also.
Good and bad with everything.
Some pedigree dogs have a high price tag as well.
Remember they all were crossed a some stage in their lives.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> So take Elmo then he has no paperwork etc,nothing no health tests.
> Should he have been pts?


Good heavens, whose suggested he should have been pts?



> Remember they all were crossed a some stage in their lives.


I wrote this on another thread, but it applies equally here. Comparing the current trend for breeding crosses and giving them a made up name has absolutely nothing in common with a different breeding being introduced to another during the development of that breed. And yet is seems to be the one thing that people go on about.... all breeds were cross breeds once............

The thoughtful introduction of another breed to introduce certain traits that were considered beneficial to produce a dog better at doing what was required is very different from the current trend in producing these designer crosses.

I'm not sure why people keep saying that all dogs were crossed once as if it justifies the current trend for designer dogs. The two types of breeding are are incomparable.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Its like being on the KKK of the dog world here sometimes.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Colsy said:


> Its like being on the KKK of the dog world here sometimes.


*Colsy let it go over your head.they say ignorance is bliss and there are a lot of ingnorant people out there.*


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *they say ignorance is bliss and there are a lot of ingnorant people out there.*


Ain't that the truth!


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Personnally I think it is important that people are aware of the dangers associated with cross-breeding and I dont feel people here are being abusive. 

SOme of the breeders here feel naturally quite strongly about this issue and may express a strong opinion but I do think it is important as there are some health issues involved in cross breeding as well as a lot of misconceptions (for instance most cross breeds are far from being settled into breeds - by definition! - and therefore one cannot speak about a standard as such and thus cannot advise a prospective owner about temperament, allergies, shedding etc it is important to be aware of it!). 
There are also reasonable worries that a lot of cross-breeders are in it for the money. When breeds were being developped ethical breeders did not sell the first few generations of pups until the breed was "safe" and settled...

Just like when someone mentions breeding, breeders here come trooping reminding about health test lol it may seem a bit pushy at times but I think it is important and I for one have learnt a lot regarding breeding!!

I dont think anyone is criticising anyone's dog and most of us would take a cross if it needed a home. noone would comment on the particular dog of a particular owner!

I love every (or most  dogs I meet but I disagree with the cross-breeding trend. It wont stop me from finding labradoodles and the like around here adorable and love seeing them play with my boy 

The "fire" is directed at the cross-breeders not "cross-owners".
I for one bought a SBT without being entirely sure about the health tests done or not on the parents... Now I know better and I will be careful in the future and will test my dog IF i was to consider breeding...
education is the key..

oki im rambling now!

xx


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Good heavens, whose suggested he should have been pts?
> 
> I wrote this on another thread, but it applies equally here. Comparing the current trend for breeding crosses and giving them a made up name has absolutely nothing in common with a different breeding being introduced to another during the development of that breed. And yet is seems to be the one thing that people go on about.... all breeds were cross breeds once............
> 
> ...


But at the time the breeders in question were "experimenting" it was exactly the same process as your pereception of cross breeding now... with one big exception; when your "pure breed" was being designed, the designers did not have the benefit of current hip / eye tests, let alone the DNA testing a lot of breeders of cross breeds now use.

So the development of whatever your breed is was bit of luck, some rather ill founded science (eugenics) and a lot of mistakes along the way.

So you are right in a way; the breeding you class as "development" ( which I assume you agree with as it's your breed and therefore must be right) was a bit of pot luck... the cross breeding currently taking place at least has some scientific basis:

- the exception; there are some unethical breeders who do none of this.. that applies to dogs with pieces of paper and those without.

Unless you are saying all dogs on the KC list are ethically correct in all ways (including their history) ?

Sorry ... edited to add:

1. "made up name"....... all names are made up.... someone once made up the name for your breed.

2. "And yet is seems to be the one thing that people go on about.... all breeds were cross breeds once............" yet you do not in anyway refute that position.

3. "Thoughtful introduction" - eugenics... thoughtful? hazardous, without base evidence, a vague experiement.... your evidence being what?


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> But at the time the breeders in question were "experimenting" it was exactly the same process as your pereception of cross breeding now... with one big exception; when your "pure breed" was being designed, the designers did not have the benefit of current hip / eye tests, let alone the DNA testing a lot of breeders of cross breeds now use.
> 
> So the development of whatever your breed is was bit of luck, some rather ill founded science (eugenics) and a lot of mistakes along the way.
> 
> ...


I understand what your saying and can see both sides of the debate / arguement.
Back then when breeds were been developed a breed standard was already in place,dogs which were close to this were bred from,this carried on from generation to generation when the dogs were breeding true to type,this unfortunatly does not happen today,there is no breed standard,nothing to breed to,no consistancy etc......

We always revert back to the all dogs were once crossed,yes they were,but it was done with alot more thought and consideration than today.

As I stated on a different thread I have no problems with any dog,big or small,crossbreed or pedigree,what I detest is irresponsible breeding this is of all dogs,purebred and crossbreed.

This is why we have rescue crisis,this why so many dogs are awaiting there forever homes in rescue's and worse on death row....Why,because the byb's and Pf's clicked that there was money to be made from breeding,look at my breed,how many SBT's are suffering,how many in rescue,this is the price these individual dogs pay for a breeds popularity.

This is reality,will this happen to these newly formed dogs,breeds ?
Your damn right it will!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I have never seen so many hypocrites as i've seen on here.How many have said "oh how cute" or " ah how lovely" your pup is, and then to turn tables and start putting in their 2 penniesworth about crossbreeds..
Well for all those that don't like, or don't agree with crossbreeds why bother saying anything?You will never understand from the other persons point of view.*


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I have never seen so many hypocrites as i've seen on here.How many have said "oh how cute" or " ah how lovely" your pup is, and then to turn tables and start putting in their 2 penniesworth about crossbreeds..
> Well for all those that don't like, or don't agree with crossbreeds why bother saying anything?You will never understand from the other persons point of view.*


I understand where you're coming from, but if a forum only heared one side of the story - and people just sat back and didn't post - it wouldn't be much of a forum? I thought that's what it was about, debating things. Obviously as long as nothing gets out of hand.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

RoseForTheDead said:


> I understand where you're coming from, but if a forum only heared one side of the story - and people just sat back and didn't post - it wouldn't be much of a forum? I thought that's what it was about, debating things. Obviously as long as nothing gets out of hand.


*I agree a debate is good, but some people will never agree, let alone agree to disagree.*


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## Rox (Apr 10, 2009)

The point of my original post was to inform anyone who is looking at getting a puggle what they are like. If you need more info, go onto the forums of puggle.org or one of the facebook pages.

I don't think we will all totaly agree on crossbreeds.

The main points to note though with all dogs is to:

Do your research and make sure the dog your looking at matches your lifestyle and you have the time etc to care for it

Get your dog from a good breeder


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I agree a debate is good, but some people will never agree, let alone agree to disagree.*


It can get out of hand sometimes, with going in circles etc.

I guess this debate is just another in forum life that no one will ever agree on lol.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> This is why we have rescue crisis,this why so many dogs are awaiting there forever homes in rescue's and worse on death row....Why,because the byb's and Pf's clicked that there was money to be made from breeding,look at my breed,how many SBT's are suffering,how many in rescue,this is the price these individual dogs pay for a breeds popularity.
> 
> This is reality,will this happen to these newly formed dogs,breeds ?
> Your damn right it will!


This is the big picture, this is the reality, it is not really about cute puppies or lovely friendly pets. *All* puppies are cute. It would be a hard person to say otherwise
No-one has any gripe with the ones already here. Most people on this forum are dog lovers.

It is about a trade and a fashion for breeding dogs by BYB and the like purely for money, by any underhand marketing scheme and ploy available. All of which is lapped up by a gullible public who once they see a puppy go all ga-ga.
It is not about producing a certain type of dog, nor making a new "proper" breed, nor thinking about the health or the welfare of the dog nor what malformations/diseases it will inherit, but purely about filthy lucre.

I cannot understand how anyone could defend such practises.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

But its not just cross breeds is it?
Back yard breeder's every where.
Puppy farmer's every where.
Even some pedigree folk cut corners,so do non pedigree.
So why does it just keep boiling down to designer dogs.
Oh boy wish my dogs were designer dogs by the way.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> But at the time the breeders in question were "experimenting" it was exactly the same process as your pereception of cross breeding now...





> So the development of whatever your breed is was bit of luck, some rather ill founded science (eugenics) and a lot of mistakes along the way.


That's my point - it was NOT a bit like that.... if only people who make these claims would actually do their research.  Anyone really interested (rather than just wanting to make an argument) should go and read about some of the modern 'breeds' that have been developed. Plummer Terriers, Lucas Terriers - even Bruce Cattanach's bobtail boxers. These modern breeds were bred for a specific purpose there was something to aim for and thus had a benchmark for their success. All original breeds would have come from selective breeding for a particular trait. Later breeds were derived from crossing those first breeds. However, certainly in modern times, meticulous records were kept. This is important not just in the development of a breed, but for if/when any future health problems appear, because they will. They also put a lot of money into developing these breeds. What they did not do was breed them as a commercial undertaking at £500 to £1000 for a crossbreed!

Any attempt at creating a breed is full of blind alleys. Failures, where the resultant dogs just do not gel. Anyone can stick too breeds together but that will not make a breed.

To accuse these breeders of using pot luck is ignorant in the extreme. Bruce Cattenach was a mammalian geneticist. While some may be health tested, none of these cross breeds are being developed using science


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Dundee said:


> That's my point - it was NOT a bit like that.... if only people who make these claims would actually do their research.  Anyone really interested (rather than just wanting to make an argument) should go and read about some of the modern 'breeds' that have been developed. Plummer Terriers, Lucas Terriers - even Bruce Cattanach's bobtail boxers. These modern breeds were bred for a specific purpose there was something to aim for and thus had a benchmark for their success. All original breeds would have come from selective breeding for a particular trait. Later breeds were derived from crossing those first breeds. However, certainly in modern times, meticulous records were kept. This is important not just in the development of a breed, but for if/when any future health problems appear, because they will. They also put a lot of money into developing these breeds. What they did not do was breed them as a commercial undertaking at £500 to £1000 for a crossbreed!
> 
> Any attempt at creating a breed is full of blind alleys. Failures, where the resultant dogs just do not gel. Anyone can stick too breeds together but that will not make a breed.
> 
> To accuse these breeders of using pot luck is ignorant in the extreme. Bruce Cattenach was a mammalian geneticist. While some may be health tested, none of these cross breeds are being developed using science


Nice thought but your theory does not add up - "records were kept".. so? That's not science based breeding that's research.. experimenting. Nothing wrong with research but just stop trying to pretend that your so called research (which is nothing of the sort) has some foundation.

"These people" did research on their argument, you are just using the KC's unfounded excuses to preach purity when their is nothing of the sort.

I am interested, I'm interested in fact - something which your arguments seem to lack.

Beautiful dogs.... but what purpose were they bred for? It appears simply for showing... so what was the importance of the development this breed over another?


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

theres cross breeds allover and to me they are just as lovley as anyother dog and dont carry any higher risk of health problem then a pedigree. can we just try and help the OP they wanted to know what a pug x beagle (puggle) is like as a pet.


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## Rox (Apr 10, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> theres cross breeds allover and to me they are just as lovley as anyother dog and dont carry any higher risk of health problem then a pedigree. can we just try and help the OP they wanted to know what a pug x beagle (puggle) is like as a pet.


spot on :thumbup:


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

If i was the person asking i would do my research else where.
Try googling the breed.
I have had a few people coming to me lately stating they are even to scared to say they have a crossbreed and to post on here.
So they just look now.
So come on this ain't right or fair is it.
We have had the whole debate about designer dogs now.
I am sure the pedigree owners have had the same after that tv programme,but i was not on this forum at the time.
Even if i was i would not have joined in.
Animals deserve alot more and at the end of the day yes i have designer dogs and yes i love them.
There will always be cross breeds and also be fashions victims in dogs look at the dalmations,huskies and many more all became popular after films.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Maybe the thread should just be closed - so it doesn't cause anymore arguments and upsetment... as said lots of times, no one will ever agree - each to their own opinions etc.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Nice thought but your theory does not add up - "records were kept".. so? That's not science based breeding that's research.. experimenting. Nothing wrong with research but just stop trying to pretend that your so called research (which is nothing of the sort) has some foundation.
> 
> "These people" did research on their argument, you are just using the KC's unfounded excuses to preach purity when their is nothing of the sort.
> 
> ...


It's not a theory, neither have I referred to anything regarding the KC. Nor has it anything to do with showing.... And what are you talking about when you refer to lovely dogs that were bred purely for showing???? Which breed is that... I know of no breed of dog bred purely for showing! Your comments make no sense.



> Nothing wrong with research but just stop trying to pretend that your so called research (which is nothing of the sort) has some foundation


There's no need to be insulting - it is not my research, so called or otherwise. I am simply suggesting those that make such sweeping statements actually do a bit of research and get their facts right before making such statements.

TBH, you are now showing your ignorance so it's not worth debating with someone who may sound like they know what they are talking about, but judging by what they are saying clearly don't.  If you really want to know, some of Brian Plummer's work is available on the net, as is Bruce Cattanach's so you won't even have to buy any of their writings, then you will see exactly what goes into creating a new breed. It bears no resemblence to the breeding of these popular cross breeds. Oh, and just for the record. None of these breeds are KC registered so have no idea why you bring them into the argument.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I feel that this discussion just got meatier with Dundee and Elmo discussing something and and then we get the "lovely dogs" and then the "poor me" and "I'm feeling got at" post by Colsy and the thread will probably get closed.

No wonder it all starts again another day.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sorry Dundee but to infer that I'm stupid just so you don't have to debate anyting is a little crass.

Bruce's crossbreeds (Corgi crossed Boxer to dodge the anti dock legislation) are KC registered... and after only four generations!!! That would make some Labradoodle KC gold card holders .... Bruce's dog line is bred for showing..

... unless you can tell me what work a Corgi cross Boxer does... I also understand Bruce judges dog shows? No critcism just please don't hold up things like this as having some higher purpose. These are dog breeders, bredding dogs, selling them and showing them.

Unfortunately the conversation won't get "meaty" lauren because Dundee will just say :

1. His/ her research is better than mine (whatever that may be)
2. I clearly don't know what I'm talking about and won't buy the book so don't even deserve the benefit of their superior intellect.

I wasn't being insulting Dundee but your post comes across as "this is the truth.. there is no other truth and if you don't agree with my truth then you are stupid or badly researched"....


Sorry - edited again:

You refer me to two authors that you obviously support. I could refer to ones I support. Bruce put a lot of work into getting round the tail docking ban by crossing a corgi with a boxer... does this have a higher purpose than crossing a labrador with a poodle to get a non-allergenic dog?

The research and mass of DNA work that went into the foundation of ASDs (the Australian version of the Labradoodle) is also published... why is this less worthy than the genetics you support?


But then, I'm simply trying to give an impression that I know what I'm talking about wheras you are clearly an expert?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

I am sorry Dundee you should do your research too.
Not all cross breed breeders are bad.
I know many that do do everything possible to get the best litter possible.
Health tests some even cover gentics.
As i have said before there is good and bad in every form of breeding.
Some can even do all the health tests possible KC reg as well and still have an unhealthy dog.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I feel that this discussion just got meatier with Dundee and Elmo discussing something and and then we get the "lovely dogs" and then the "poor me" and "I'm feeling got at" post by Colsy and the thread will probably get closed.
> 
> No wonder it all starts again another day.


Dont start on me love..
I have had enough of the abuse on this forum.
Go and play BINGO....
Elmo is my Husband by the way...


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Sorry Dundee but to infer that I'm stupid just so you don't have to debate anyting is a little crass.


No it just means that I don't feel like wasting time on posts to people who throw insults around. Your latest post does indicate that you have more to offer that could lead to an interesting debate. You make incorrect assumptions about who and what I support. I thought of writing a longer post, but quite frankly, it's late and I'm not sure it's worth the bother.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Quite correct. I'm not worth the bother.....

..... and I don't throw insults around; they are carefully crafted


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## Linny Buffy & Spike (Feb 3, 2009)

Dundee said:


> .............even Bruce Cattanach's bobtail boxers. These modern breeds were bred for a specific purpose there was something to aim for and thus had a benchmark for their success. All original breeds would have come from selective breeding for a particular trait. Later breeds were derived from crossing those first breeds. However, certainly in modern times, meticulous records were kept. This is important not just in the development of a breed, but for if/when any future health problems appear, because they will. They also put a lot of money into developing these breeds. What they did not do was breed them as a commercial undertaking at £500 to £1000 for a crossbreed!
> 
> Any attempt at creating a breed is full of blind alleys. Failures, where the resultant dogs just do not gel. Anyone can stick too breeds together but that will not make a breed.
> 
> To accuse these breeders of using pot luck is ignorant in the extreme. Bruce Cattenach was a mammalian geneticist. While some may be health tested, none of these cross breeds are being developed using science


I completely agree with you about outcrossing to produce healthier dogs. The work that's being done with Dalmatians and some other breeds is admirable.

However, "bobtail boxers" are a whole different ballgame. They weren't aiming to produce a healthier dog: just a dog with a shorter tail. Unfortunately, to do that they had to introduce even more health problems.

The gene that was introduced from Pembroke corgis for a bobtail is dominant. That means that dogs only need a single bobtail gene (let's call it B) along with a normal longtail gene (let's call it b) to have a bobtail. So longtail boxers will be bb, and bobtails will be Bb. So far so good.

However, the bobtail gene also brings along with it the so-called "lethal gene". If you cross two bobtail boxers (ie Bb with Bb), those pups who pick up two copies of the bobtail gene (ie those that are BB) never develop properly. They die, either early, during embryonic development, or later, in foetal stages. The puppies are usually reabsorbed in the uterus before they come to term, and are never born alive, but is that really something that's desirable?

And if that wasn't enough, there's another problem. The gene pool of bobtail boxers is very, very tiny. All of these dogs (every one) is a recent descendant of the single Pembroke Corgi who was used to introduce the bobtail gene in the first place, back in 1991. This means that if two dogs from bobtail lines are bred together, the chance of a deleterious recessive gene emerging is very high indeed. And the more times you do it, the greater the risk becomes.

Even the originator himself (Cattanach) said dogs from bobtails lines should not be bred with each other, because of the dangers inherent in introducing recessive problems. In his own words, "we have everything to lose and nothing to gain" by crossing them. And that goes for ALL the dogs from bobtail lines, regardless of whether or not the dog itself is bb (ie longtailed) or Bb (bobtailed). How does anyone realistically propose to police this restriction, now that the bobtail gene has been released into the general boxer population?

I think boxers already have enough to deal with (aortic stenosis, cardiomyopathy, tumors, lymphoma etc). Why risk introducing even more health problems into the breed, just for the sake of a shorter tail?

I believe the time, effort and resources that have been put in to creating the "bobtail boxer" would have been far better expended trying to eliminate the health problems that already exist in the breed.

Best wishes,
Linny


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

I agree with you. I mentioned Bruce Cattenach in response to Elmo's comment that breeds were developed by luck and they had no knowledge of science - Bruce Cattenach was a geneticist!


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Yes i defend my breed just as all of you would defend yours.
> My dogs are not designer dogs,mutts or mongrels they are my pets.
> I may not like a few breeds of dogs but i am never offensive to anyone.
> As i have said before don't like it don't buy it.
> ...


Because you are looking at the argument as if people are attacking you and your dogs. I don't have a problem with the individual dogs, there are many lovely crossbreeds out there - I own one myself!

Try to see the bigger picture, it is not about YOUR dogs. And BTW - please stop referring to designer dogs like they are a breed. They are no more a breed than the staffy x down at the local pound. Crossbreed owners and breeders constantly referring to their dogs like they are purebred is one of the reasons we have so many problems with the general public being misinformed about crossbreeds!



lauren001 said:


> I don't think anyone is against the dogs themselves.
> 
> The rationale for breeding them is under question, the health reasons are against doing it and the people who churn them out as they are "fashionable" are definitely questionable.
> 
> People always take things so personally, it is not a personal vendetta against owners, it is the bigger picture that needs looking at.


Exactly, well said Lauren.



JANICE199 said:


> *I have never seen so many hypocrites as i've seen on here.How many have said "oh how cute" or " ah how lovely" your pup is, and then to turn tables and start putting in their 2 penniesworth about crossbreeds..
> Well for all those that don't like, or don't agree with crossbreeds why bother saying anything?You will never understand from the other persons point of view.*


Oh dear, now this (and the KKK comment) is just being hysterical.

So because I disagree with intentional crossbreeding, I can't think a crossbreed dog is lovely? I think my crossbred dog is pretty special. My friend owns a schnauzer/poodle cross, he's a great little dog! Doesn't mean that I think his breeder was ethical or that I support buying them from any where other than rescue.


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## PetArtist (Apr 9, 2009)

Somone mentioned the dangers of crossbreeding, what about the dangers of pedigree breeding? Genetic load, the presence of lethal equivalents in all individuals, genetic bottlenecks, closed gene pools, gene pool fragmentation, and genetic drift, all attributable to inbreeding which is the very escence of pedigree breeding. Crossbreeding is a genetic lottery someone said, at least there's a chance of winning the lottery, there's no hope at all for some pedigree breeds because they are now so inbred.

Having said that, Pug & Beagle, WTF!?! Whoever thought of that combination of breeds needs a brain scan asap!


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2009)

PetArtist said:


> Somone mentioned the dangers of crossbreeding, what about the dangers of pedigree breeding? Genetic load, the presence of lethal equivalents in all individuals, genetic bottlenecks, closed gene pools, gene pool fragmentation, and genetic drift, all attributable to inbreeding which is the very escence of pedigree breeding. Crossbreeding is a genetic lottery someone said, at least there's a chance of winning the lottery, there's no hope at all for some pedigree breeds because they are now so inbred.


Oh come on now. Let me put it for you this way:

You have two pedigree dogs, a lab and a poodle.

As you have so kindly worded above, they are all horribly inbred and riddled with health problems. There is no "chance of winning the lottery" because they are so poorly bred.

You cross these two dogs to make "labradoodle" - and suddenly you have "the chance to win the lottery".

How so?

If pedigree dogs are so unhealthy, as you said above, how can crossbreeds magically be healthy and free of genetic disease? Their parents were purebred, weren't they? Don't throw the hybrid vigour argument out there either, because it exists in purebreds, all it means is breeding two unrelated dogs, they can still be the same breed. If you are are breeding from unhealthy dogs than how can the pups magically be healthy or free of genetic disease?

Pedigree dogs are a known quantity. You cannot say the same for crossbreeds, if you are breeding unregistered dogs, you have no idea what genetic nasties might pop up and you can't research your dogs lines to ensure you are breeding with their perfect genetic match. We hear all the time about all these unhealthy pedigree dogs, well I'd like to see them in the quantity that they are talked about. I certainly don't find them at dogs shows, or at various dog sports, or in the kennels of the breeders I know. And any breeder intentionally and knowingly breeding unhealthy dogs is shunned amongst their peers.

Crossbreeds are bred by crossing two purebred dogs. It is simple logic and basic genetics that if the parents are riddled with health problems, the likelihood of the puppies having the same issues is very high.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *I have never seen so many hypocrites as i've seen on here.How many have said "oh how cute" or " ah how lovely" your pup is, and then to turn tables and start putting in their 2 penniesworth about crossbreeds..
> Well for all those that don't like, or don't agree with crossbreeds why bother saying anything?You will never understand from the other persons point of view.*


Dah How many times the dogs are cute ITS the Breeders of these Crosses that Ethical Breeders are and some members are against. I get so fed up with Me,mbers becoming Paranoid for no reason imo.


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## Linny Buffy & Spike (Feb 3, 2009)

smeagle said:


> Oh come on now. Let me put it for you this way:
> 
> You have two pedigree dogs, a lab and a poodle.
> 
> ...


But responsible and ethical people breeding crossbreds don't breed together dogs "riddled with health problems", any more than responsible purebred breeders do. They choose healthy dogs from healthy lines, then test them to further minimise the risk of genetic defects.

Nobody here is promoting simply slapping together any two dogs and hoping for the best, regardless of whether the dogs are the same breed or not. Sure, with a crossbred you have a somewhat lesser chance of getting a dog with an inherited defect, but it's still a lottery, and who wants to take that kind of chance with a companion that will be with you for life.

I think it's important to encourage new owners to choose responsible and ethical breeders, and that's regardless of whether they choose a purebred of a crossbred dog.

Best wishes
Linny


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2009)

Linny said:


> But responsible and ethical people breeding crossbreds don't breed together dogs "riddled with health problems", any more than responsible purebred breeders do. They choose healthy dogs from healthy lines, then test them to further minimise the risk of genetic defects.
> 
> Nobody here is promoting simply slapping together any two dogs and hoping for the best, regardless of whether the dogs are the same breed or not. Sure, with a crossbred you have a somewhat lesser chance of getting a dog with an inherited defect, but it's still a lottery, and who wants to take that kind of chance with a companion that will be with you for life.


Linny, I was responding to Petartist's comment that, essentially, at least you have a chance with crossbreeds whereas you have zero chance with getting a healthy a purebred.

The logic is incredibly flawed, if all purebred dogs are so unhealthy then there is no way crossing two of them will eliminate health problems or decrease the likelihood of health problems. If you are breeding two dogs with health issues then it is simply logic that the pups have a high chance of having them too!

I don't see how crossbreeding magically means you will get a healthier dog. And what about the problems you get when you breed together two dogs that are completely unrelated in terms of structure, size difference etc? I have seen quite a few popular designer crosses with structural issues, because the original breeds are just not compatible. Look at the difference in pugs and beagles, you cannot tell me they make a good combination - the size difference is considerable, as is the different skull construction and body structure. Joint problems just waiting to happen when you cross those two breeds!

And I would be very concerned about pedigree breeders who sell their dogs to people so they can crossbreed them. Not a single ethical breeder I know would do something so dramatically detrimental to their breed.


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## PetArtist (Apr 9, 2009)

PetArtist said:


> ...there's no hope at all for* some* pedigree breeds because they are now so inbred.





smeagle said:


> As you have so kindly worded above, they are all horribly inbred and riddled with health problems. There is no "chance of winning the lottery" because they are so poorly bred.


I think you've put words in my mouth there. 


smeagle said:


> How so?


Genetic diversity, mainly.


smeagle said:


> If pedigree dogs are so unhealthy, as you said above, how can crossbreeds magically be healthy and free of genetic disease?


I never mentioned magic. *Controlled* crossbreeding/outcrossing will reduce the incidence of genetic disease found in today's pedigree breeds but it's basic genetics not magic.


smeagle said:


> Their parents were purebred, weren't they? Don't throw the hybrid vigour argument out there either, because it exists in purebreds, all it means is breeding two unrelated dogs, they can still be the same breed. If you are are breeding from unhealthy dogs than how can the pups magically be healthy or free of genetic disease?


Again, not magic. All breeds originate from a certain number of founder breeds, a fact I'm sure you're aware of. Breeding in a closed gene pool (the majority of pedigree breeds are part of *strictly* closed gene pools) means they can only remain the same or get more inbred, the situation can not and will not improve and inbreeding is a major cause of genetic disease, simples.

Heterosis is strongest in first crosses because they are far less related than two distantly related dogs of the same breed, so if you want a healthy pet dog, of all the options available, your best bet is a well bred first cross.


smeagle said:


> Pedigree dogs are a known quantity. You cannot say the same for crossbreeds, if you are breeding unregistered dogs, you have no idea what genetic nasties might pop up and you can't research your dogs lines to ensure you are breeding with their perfect genetic match.


Agreed to an extent, but genetic principals show us that by crossing less related or unrelated breeds "genetic nasties" are less likely to emerge than when pure breeding.


smeagle said:


> We hear all the time about all these unhealthy pedigree dogs, well I'd like to see them in the quantity that they are talked about. I certainly don't find them at dogs shows, or at various dog sports, or in the kennels of the breeders I know. And any breeder intentionally and knowingly breeding unhealthy dogs is shunned amongst their peers.


Statistics prove that point, your anecdotal evidence to the contary does not disprove the statistics.


smeagle said:


> Crossbreeds are bred by crossing two purebred dogs. It is simple logic and basic genetics that if the parents are riddled with health problems, the likelihood of the puppies having the same issues is very high.


No, basic genetics tell us that if pedigree parents are riddled with health problems the offspring will be less likely to be affected than if the parents were of the same breed because the majority of genetic diseases are recessive. Unless both the parents suffer or are carriers of the same genetic diseases or the genetic dieases are dominant (again caused by inbreeding) the offspring will not be affected. Basic common sense tells us not to breed them in the first place anyway, assuming anyone cross breeding would use sub-standard dogs is a common flaw in the anti-crossbreeding arguement.

By the same token, breeding two pedigree parents riddled with health problems of the same breed is far more likely to result in offspring riddled with health problems.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2009)

PetArtist said:


> I think you've put words in my mouth there.


Ok then... which breeds are you talking about then? Just so we know which ones it is impossible to buy a healthy dog in.



> I never mentioned magic. *Controlled* crossbreeding/outcrossing will reduce the incidence of genetic disease found in today's pedigree breeds but it's basic genetics not magic.
> 
> Again, not magic. All breeds originate from a certain number of founder breeds, a fact I'm sure you're aware of. Breeding in a closed gene pool (the majority of pedigree breeds are part of *strictly* closed gene pools) means they can only remain the same or get more inbred, the situation can not and will not improve and inbreeding is a major cause of genetic disease, simples.


Mmmm just like line breeding allows breeders to set specific traits, if there are no problems in the lines, what is the issue?



> Heterosis is strongest in first crosses because they are far less related than two distantly related dogs of the same breed, so if you want a healthy pet dog, of all the options available, your best bet is a well bred first cross.


What a load of rubbish. I guess the two pedigree dogs I have here that are from breeds that have minimal health problems are just flukes right?

So you're saying it is impossible to get a healthy, well bred purebred dog? We should all just go out and buy crossbreeds, a complete unknown quantity, dogs which we have no idea what traits they will grow up to have, because you can't get a healthy purebred?

In your eyes, what is the difference between buying a pedigree dog from good, healthy lines and a crossbreed? One of my dogs came from a breeder who has been breeding the breed for 30 odd years, her lines are incredibly healthy and long lived... crossbreeding her dogs is not going to make them any healthier than they already are. I know, shocking isn't it - there are healthy pedigree dogs out there :O



> Statistics prove that point, your anecdotal evidence to the contary does not disprove the statistics.


Please, point me to the direction of the statistics that prove pedigree dog breeds, bred by ethical breeders and from health tested breeding stock, are riddled with health problems.



> By the same token, breeding two pedigree parents riddled with health problems of the same breed is far more likely to result in offspring riddled with health problems.


Of course.... which is why good pedigree breeders health test and only breed dogs that will make the best genetic match.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

closed for moderating


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