# Kennel Club press release following the death of Jade Anderson



## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Couldn't see it it anywhere so thought I'd post it for anyone interested.

Jade Anderson death highlights urgent need for change in Dangerous Dog law says Kennel Club - The Kennel Club



> Following the tragic death of schoolgirl, Jade Anderson, the Kennel Club urges the government to change fatally flawed dangerous dogs legislation.
> 
> Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary, said: We are truly saddened to hear about the death of Jade Anderson and our thoughts and deepest condolences go to her family.
> 
> ...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Dog lovers and experienced dog owners have been saying the same ever since they brought the stupid law in, but nothing is done about it. They would rather appease the non dog owning public, who have made up their minds that it is breed specific.

If what we are reading is true and this girl had food in the house, especially since she was alone in a house which was not hers, it is easily done.

When my daughter stayed with me when the children were little, I had my golden retriever, the most placid dog you could wish to meet, and she brought her English Mastiff, another nice natured placid dog. Then my grandson came wandering in with a chocolate biscuit in his hand and the two dogs flew at each other.

Had I not been there to separate them and whisk him out of the way, he could easily have been seriously hurt. You just never know what dogs are likely to do, especially where food is involved.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Tragic, tragic case. I can't begin to imagine how this girl suffered before she finally died.

However, this statement in particular caught my attention;

*"Breed specific legislation is also having the unintended consequence of turning banned breeds into status symbols, so that they are taken on by the wrong people who train them for the purposes of fighting or aggression."*

When will they learn that the attached irony to banning something is that it only makes that thing much more sought after.


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## LouLatch (Jul 2, 2012)

I totally agree with this. 

Any breed of dog can be dangerous. Its the people who let their dogs become out of control who ruin the whole perseption on owning a dog and on dogs as a species.

Its these idiots that the law needs to focus on!

I dont expect we will ever know the full story of what happened to that poor girl, tis so sad.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

and i am pleased as many will be to see the kc strongly advise children be supervised by responsible adults when around dogs. not needing to define exactly what age they consider a child i add. 

this poor girl was not a member of the family of the dogs

was alone from reports even by son of the owner news with the dogs

she had no chance. 


and delighted the kc urge more government laws too.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I think all dogs can be unpredictable, but I would like to meet any of the banned breeds and I still think a few more should be added list.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I think all dogs can be unpredictable, but I would like to meet any of the banned breeds and I still think a few more should be added list.


If you visit the US you can meet lots of American pit bull terriers. They are popular family dogs and are referred to as one of the nanny dogs. It is because they look tough that the deficient among us who need a phallic symbol have ruined their reputation in this country.

I have seen a few in Cambridge, all well behaved. I won't say they were lovely because I am not attracted to bull breeds, but they were a darned sighter gentler looking than some I have seen. Looks mean absolutely nothing.


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## clayton1985 (Jan 17, 2013)

Happy Paws said:


> I think all dogs can be unpredictable, but I would like to meet any of the banned breeds and I still think a few more should be added list.


I have personally met an apbt and can say i felt totally at ease round it, the owner was with me the whole time and it genuinely was one of the friendliest dogs iv ever met but it had a responsible owner. It was muzzled even though it need not of been.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> I think all dogs can be unpredictable, but I would like to meet any of the banned breeds and I still think a few more should be added list.


We have two american bulldogs which are restricted breeds in many areas, certainly here in Germany. Our vets love them as they are so soppy.

Can you show me any evidence that banning breeds actually achieves anything? All studies done on the subject that I am aware of actually point out the opposite. Banning breeds doesn't work, no matter how many breeds you put on the list. Making owners responsible for there dogs is another matter and is an approach Italy went down when it acknowledged the fact Breed Specific Legislation (BSL) doesn't work, it's simply a marketing gimmick to soothe public perception that the problem is being handled.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> I think all dogs can be unpredictable, but I would like to meet any of the banned breeds and I still think a few more should be added list.


I'm curious.... exactly which breeds would you like to ban? Which breeds would you like to stop perfectly normal, responsible dog owners from having? And why? On what grounds?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

All breeds are covered under the dangerous dogs act though


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Colette said:


> I'm curious.... exactly which breeds would you like to ban? Which breeds would you like to stop perfectly normal, responsible dog owners from having? And why? On what grounds?


Going by previous misinformed posts by Happy Paws [sorry HP they really wind me up!!] anything that looks 'scary' or vaguely bull breed-esque - It just shows a completely lack of knowledge imo - ban all dogs or none - ANY dog can hurt small children - more education is needed - not more misinformed laws based on nothing but misconceptions and idiocy


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

I was reading a bit more about this story and a couple of things struck me as interesting.

The dogs were confined to the kitchen and the two girls had gone to a neighbours to ask to warm the pies. Why didn't the warm them at home? Either they didn't have equipment to or the dogs were too dangerous.

The owner of the dogs had also (according to this particular story) said she was scared of the dogs as well.

They were never walked.

A few things struck me

Why would you keep dogs in your house that you are scared of?

Were they more dangerous because they weren't walked?

Were they not walked because they were hard to control?

Also I was wondering how well they were fed...maybe they weren't very well cared for and genuinely hungry...I mean, logically, feeding dogs that you are frightened of cant be an easy task


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Pixieandbow said:


> I was reading a bit more about this story and a couple of things struck me as interesting.
> 
> The dogs were confined to the kitchen and the two girls had gone to a neighbours to ask to warm the pies. Why didn't the warm them at home? Either they didn't have equipment to or the dogs were too dangerous.
> 
> ...


The mind really does boggle doesn't it 

Having one dog you never walk - okay - common enough - but to keep adding and adding more dogs you don't walk and to boot are SCARED of it insanity


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

the point the kennel club makes is one made often that banning anything makes it more attractive out of defiance and macho image lovers so the wrong kind of owners...who go underground...

the bans certainly put a stop to the pitbull imports and it is like many breeds on near deathrow extinction list now...one cant say it didint reduce the risks of deaths however as logically the less there were the less available to attack anyone in too public a place combined with those following the laws to wear muzzled if in public risk again reduced. just statistics.

so humans try things find they fail and try something else ... now the more strict controls on having registers for all dogs seen in public is back to licensing type contols...that will COST MORE to enforce than the banned breeds laws of course ! now i do think COST of any measures is an issue and on COST grounds meaning TAX PAYERS MONEY of non dog owners as well as dog owners i think the dangerous dogs act was the most cost effective.

who is going to pay ? in money and lives is a good question when considering measures ! in germany dog licenses are very expensive i heard. good thing ! those not paying them no doubt hide their dogs ! less likely to be out in public fields so much.

deterents and money to me are the only way...Changing attitudes of humans who like macho images of aggressive dogs is a more difficult thing althoug gladiators ceased ! yes humans used to fight lions and each other to death for sport and that did change eventually ! attitudes to human life and even animal lives in sport figting changed !!! over centuries of course !

faster effects are obtained by COSTS of CONTROLS versus RISKS to lives and injuries evaluated. doing nothing is not an option the public we all do not accept living with the risk of being eaten by wild lions loose on streets anymore than we accept dogs off leads much anymore nowadays in public. PERCEPTION of RISK and acceptant of injuries and deaths mean more controls and more costs. so REPORT THE MUPPETS when the laws come in to have formal checks on outta control dogs ! REDUCE THE COSTS ! make them pay ! something like that appeals to me yes. at the same time as ? reducing the risk ! putting the FEAR of fines prison even into peoples minds ! 

in the MEANTIME freedom of not having these expensive controls to the rest of the dogowner population is going to be lost....more yellings at and laws about dogs on leads bannings in public places to come...more COSTS of dog licensees schooling etc to come if laws for that come in...As always the minorities cost the majorities money...just a question of how much money as well as how much risk we as a society are prepared to accept.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

To be honest, they can barely crackdown on people not paying a tv licence in the UK- how would they enforce it


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Julesky said:


> To be honest, they can barely crackdown on people not paying a tv licence in the UK- how would they enforce it


They just wouldn't bother - costs too much money

If they actually threw money at this problem it could be solved somewhat but really whats the priority in this economy - not dogs that's for sure


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

And not to sound so callous but more people are probably killed by being trampled by cows every year than there are killed by dog attacks so I don't see why there's a huge huge fuss about it


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

We could of course ban all those breeds that have been responsible for human fatalities - the pit bull, rottweiler, german shepherd... 

AND the labrador, border collie, siberian husky, dachshund, chow chow, golden retriever cross, aussie shepherd cross, old english sheepdog cross, alaskan malamute, weimeraner, boxer, saint bernard, newfoundland, great dane, chesapeake bay retriever, west highland white terrier, coonhound, jack russell, pomeranian, a variety of unknown mixed breeds, and last but by no means least - the BRIARD!

ALL of these have killed people.

Still think we should ban "dangerous" breeds of dog?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

There does need to be tighter laws regarding all dogs IMO, it's not acceptable the way things are at present and owners need the book thrown at them for not taking proper care. What laws I have no idea, will just wait and see what they come up with - probably some kind of shite as they usually do but at least now owners are getting some stick.

I don't know how people can live with having a dog and never taking it out - it cuts me up if I don't take mine out for a day, I feel so guilty and even when Flynn used to frighten the life out of me with his reactiveness I still forced myself to take him out. I just tried to avoid all dogs, lived in fear at times we'd see one - in fact I made him worse, so I was later told!

There's a lovely huge Mal up the road, he hasn't been out since last November and that was just around the block  you know when he's being walked because he woo's and woo's, bless him and he's such a well behaved lovely boy. He lives with ten cats (breeds them) and loves kids and I feel so sad for him because he so loves it when he goes out! 

I wonder why people even have a dog if they can't be @rsed to walk it and with a breed like a Mal I find it disgusting since they are bred to work. I feel guilty that mine don't work but I think it'd kill me to get on a rig, lol! At least they always go out though!

Those dog must have been a time bomb waiting to go off if they never got any exercise - awful!


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

<<barely track down tc licenses..>> comment reply

yes that is my point also in a way meaning COST it will COST to go do CHECKS ON MUPPET DOG OWNERS !

the posts before this were saying what aweful reported conditons the outta control dogs were kept in. suggestions reasonable reading and seeing the small yard for them to have legal limits on numbers of dogs in a given space to live in

almost rspca animal cruelty type law checks !

and tHOSE COST MONEY ! but it puts FEAR into minds and NEIGHBOURS in this case would have a reasont to REPORT the muppets if they knew such checks could be made on people and action taken

not easy animal cruelty still happens in spite of rscpa inspectors chasing people but the fines i read recently are bringing in funds !!!

in fact the rspca got a blasting recently for putting down dogs and spending money on pursuing cases legally of animal cruelty instead with funds...but again there they cant do anyting right hey ! they are just trying to reduce suffereing and yes millions of animals are put down due to abandon and no those even caught doing that or torturing them are not prosectured there is not enough money to do all that is needed it is such a big probmen

and i dare suggest here these dogs are almost if not in the cruelty to animals league ! DO NOT TAKE THAT AS A DEFENSE OF THEM PLEASE PLEASE THINKING I EXCUSE THE DEATH OR THINK THEY DID NOT DESERVE TO BE PUT DOWN BEING OUTTA CONTROL LIKE THAT ! but no one should be allowed to keep dogs in such numbers in such conditions ! yes so i am for checks and laws to punish such owners and stop dogs ending up in these homes....

but it costs...And so laws are needed and fines to fund them as well as tax payers money to save the KIDS and the dogs but i put them last careful as we must not forget that kids life is worth more than all the dogs and i make no apologies for that statement !!! all to me and many is evaluation...and i evaluate jade and others like her lives higher than the dogs whatever the number.

sinking ship expression used to say...women and children first...and i think they got that the wrong way round it should be children first. however. i must stop getting into too much analysis of words i am better at numbers.

what encouraged me is that i read the neighbours all said the dogs were a barking mad aggressive bunch and disliked having them nearby had run ins with them...now once there are laws for reporting and fining people for keeping animals like that in bad conditions and the fines and prison sentences on private property laws missing and to be brought in the deterent attempt is in place. sigh. neighbours could report such people and by doing so prevent the risk of similar tragedies better. we dont have the perfect answer to this problem like many because it is about attitudes of what the majority would call reasonable not being in a free society the values and attitudes of minorities of course. and so we try one thing after another until attitudes and the laws eventually get somewhere near the desired by majority goals.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Malmum said:


> There does need to be tighter laws regarding all dogs IMO, it's not acceptable the way things are at present and owners need the book thrown at them for not taking proper care. What laws I have no idea, will just wait and see what they come up with - probably some kind of shite as they usually do but at least now owners are getting some stick.
> 
> I don't know how people can live with having a dog and never taking it out - it cuts me up if I don't take mine out for a day, I feel so guilty and even when Flynn used to frighten the life out of me with his reactiveness I still forced myself to take him out. I just tried to avoid all dogs, lived in fear at times we'd see one - in fact I made him worse, so I was later told!
> 
> ...


Goodness me  I totally agree!


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

Not convinced by the timing of this press release.

I'm not sure it's possible or desirable to legislate for stupid. 

A "how many dogs allowed by landlords" policy would be the easiest, cheapest, most affective way to go. 

You could try making Good citizenship bronze a requirement for tenants?

You'd have thought if the dogs were making the sort of noise suggested a noise abatement order may have been effective.


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> I think all dogs can be unpredictable, but I would like to meet any of the banned breeds and I still think a few more should be added list.


We have a Pit Bull in our agility class.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> If you visit the US you can meet lots of American pit bull terriers. They are popular family dogs and are referred to as one of the nanny dogs. It is because they look tough that the deficient among us who need a phallic symbol have ruined their reputation in this country.
> 
> I have seen a few in Cambridge, all well behaved. I won't say they were lovely because I am not attracted to bull breeds, but they were a darned sighter gentler looking than some I have seen. Looks mean absolutely nothing.


I'm not sure they always have particularly good reputation in the US. We had a friend from the US visit and she asked if we had Pit Bulls here, when I said they were banned she said words to the effect of 'good, they cause so much trouble, wish they were banned where I live'.

I'm not saying she's right in her perception, just that I don't think it's just here they have the reputation they do.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Polimba said:


> I'm not sure they always have particularly good reputation in the US. We had a friend from the US visit and she asked if we had Pit Bulls here, when I said they were banned she said words to the effect of 'good, they cause so much trouble, wish they were banned where I live'.
> 
> I'm not saying she's right in her perception, just that I don't think it's just here they have the reputation they do.


They have exactly the same undeserved reputation that staffordshires do in the UK - overbred - over popular and therefore over represented in attacks


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## blossom21 (Oct 29, 2012)

From an account in the paper today, the owner didnt walk or exercise these dogs,but she wasnt slow off the mark in breeding and selling them


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> the point the kennel club makes is one made often that banning anything makes it more attractive out of defiance and macho image lovers so the wrong kind of owners...who go underground...
> 
> the bans certainly put a stop to the pitbull imports and it is like many breeds on near deathrow extinction list now...one cant say it didint reduce the risks of deaths however as logically the less there were the less available to attack anyone in too public a place combined with those following the laws to wear muzzled if in public risk again reduced. just statistics.
> 
> ...


It's still easy to bring banned breeds in. They illustrated that on a documentary a few years back.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Judging from information in the media and on her facebook page the lady didn't feed the dogs a very good diet (wag), didn't really walk them, admitted her bull mastiff disliked children but kept it anyway, bred and gave the pups to anyone willing to pay and the list goes on.

Such an unethical owner, its only a matter of time before dogs kept in these conditions snap. Maybe a pie was just too good to resist considering what they are usually fed on.

A garden/yard is no place for 4 adult dogs to get daily enrichment. Walks and human interaction is needed. 

The 5th dog was a Shihtzu I am not aware if it's yet been destroyed or not but if it doesn't they should not return it to the owner. 

It did occur to me that the girls didn't use their own kitchen to heat up pies, wonder if the dogs are the reason why they decided to use a neighbors house. 

Apparently a dog called Buddy was the most covered in blood (I think Buddy's the white bull mastiff mix) but I guess no one will ever know but I certainly think the owner should hold some responsibility for what happened. She knew at least 1 of these dogs was aggressive yet ignored it and now a young girl has lost her chance at her life.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> I think all dogs can be unpredictable, but I would like to meet any of the banned breeds and I still think a few more should be added list.


Out of curiosity, what others breeds do you think should be banned?



Kicksforkills said:


> We have a Pit Bull in our agility class.


If you live in the UK, you really don't  Unless, of course, it is doing it's agility training muzzled and on a lead.

An owner who likes to consider their Staffie cross as one maybe - but the vast majority of people (myself included) wouldn't know a true Pitbull if it bit them on the bum!


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Overcrowded, high drive dogs with no exercise potentially being an accident waiting to happen I certainly won't argue with but now Wagg is to blame?  'Budget kibble makes dogs kill!!!111!' I knew when I saw the picture that shows some of the dogs with a sack of the stuff in the background that that some would pick up on it. Dog food snobbery taken to the extreme.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> They have exactly the same undeserved reputation that staffordshires do in the UK - overbred - over popular and therefore over represented in attacks


That is what the Pit is likely to become if made legal here though. I have no problem with the breed, as long as it is in the hands of experienced and responsible owners.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2013)

Sosha said:


> Not convinced by the timing of this press release.
> 
> I'm not sure it's possible or desirable to legislate for stupid.
> 
> ...


Was the property rented then?

I'm actually quite annoyed at your post, do you think that people who live in rented accommodation are the only people with problem dogs? What about those that own their own home - their dogs are model citizens?


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

I have in the past had to use Wagg donated from well meaning family members when thing have been really tight financially with no access or funds for their usual food, only for short periods of time but I do think it has a massive impact on behaviour. 
I don't agree that the dog would attack because it was so hungry it couldn't control itself but something in certain foods does seem to send some dogs up the wall even when they are walked regularly and trained so heaven knows what it is like with dogs with no self control training. 
Some dogs like newfiesmum said can be really unpredictable around food regardless of how well they were brought up and temprement. 
a good article with some good common sense statements.

Girl killed by dogs: almost any breed can kill. But good nurture can beat dangerous nature - Telegraph Blogs


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

dandogman said:


> That is what the Pit is likely to become if made legal here though. I have no problem with the breed, as long as it is in the hands of experienced and responsible owners.


I don't think you quite really grasp the whole BSL or dangerous breeds thing - as demonstrated here many times before - breed DOES NOT MATTER - if it's not pitbulls it's rotties or mastiffs or malamutes or any other breed who looks a certain way - it's about OWNERS not any breed AT ALL


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Kicksforkills said:


> We have a Pit Bull in our agility class.


Surely not, the instructor would not want to condone a law breaker would they.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

erinn said:


> Was the property rented then?
> 
> *I'm actually quite annoyed at your post,* do you think that people who live in rented accommodation are the only people with problem dogs? What about those that own their own home - their dogs are model citizens?


You and me both!!! Completely silly suggestion imo - what does a bronze certificate equate to in the real world  Not much if you ask me - My dog could pass it if I wanted her to but that doesn't mean she's in any way reliable or non-aggressive


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

dandogman said:


> That is what the Pit is likely to become if made legal here though. I have no problem with the breed, as long as it is in the hands of experienced and responsible owners.


Maybe they will, maybe they won't. They already suffer a lot of what you mentioned already. If their illegality is removed, that might also remove their cache. There is a definite welfare issue with the overbreeding of sbt, given their huge numbers in rescue and the abuse so often seen. But there is also a huge welfare issue with Pitbull type dogs. Whether they are purebred or a crssbred dog unfortunate to meet the criteria for type, they can still end up incarcerated for months or years pending court cases and dogs deemed type that end up in rescue are PTS irrespective of temperament.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Surely not, the instructor would not want to condone a law breaker would they.


It's not breaking the law to have a pitbull - they just have to adhere to certain regulations is all - I know of a handful up north who adhere to their responsibilities due to owning one


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Howl said:


> I have in the past had to use Wagg donated from well meaning family members when thing have been really tight financially with no access or funds for their usual food, only for short periods of time but I do think it has a massive impact on behaviour.
> I don't agree that the dog would attack because it was so hungry it couldn't control itself but something in certain foods does seem to send some dogs up the wall even when they are walked regularly and trained so heaven knows what it is like with dogs with no self control training.
> [/url]


I can only speak from my experience of feeding it (boo, hiss etc) - while it didn't agree with my boy's tum (which is why I'd not buy it again), I didn't see any behavioural changes in either of my dogs. It would depend on the individual of course but I really find it laughable that cheap food is being touted as to why these dogs mauled a teenage girl to death. Wagg's main ingredient is wheat, not crystal meth.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I may be wrong but I read a statistic in a Daily Fail article and we know they over egg things that 7 people (5 of which are children) have been killed in dog attacks in the last 6 years.

Now I aren't taking anything away from the poor people that have lost their lives but what about the number of children and people in the last 6 years killed in road traffic accidents.....or in wars, or been trampled by cows or by falling coconuts.

I aren't saying that nothing should be done but realistically we want to share our lives with big powerful animals and accidents and incidents are always going to happen, whether that be dogs, cow, horses or other human beings!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I don't think you quite really grasp the whole BSL or dangerous breeds thing - as demonstrated here many times before - breed DOES NOT MATTER - if it's not pitbulls it's rotties or mastiffs or malamutes or any other breed who looks a certain way - it's about OWNERS not any breed AT ALL


Yes, but no doubt it is the dog that suffers, so unless some kind of counter piece of legislation comes in to punish owners, then I think Pits are better off banned.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

picaresque said:


> I can only speak from my experience of feeding it (boo, hiss etc) - while it didn't agree with my boy's tum (which is why I'd not buy it again), I didn't see any behavioural changes in either of my dogs. It would depend on the individual of course but I really find it laughable that cheap food is being touted as to why these dogs mauled a teenage girl to death. Wagg's main ingredient is wheat, not crystal meth.


I agree.

I fed Wagg for a bit, and the only 'problem' I had was the colour of the poo! my dog was still in good condition and was perfectly friendly!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2013)

LexiLou2 said:


> I may be wrong but I read a statistic in a Daily Fail article and we know they over egg things that 7 people (5 of which are children) have been killed in dog attacks in the last 6 years.
> 
> Now I aren't taking anything away from the poor people that have lost their lives but what about the number of children and people in the last 6 years killed in road traffic accidents.....or in wars, or been trampled by cows or by falling coconuts.
> 
> I aren't saying that nothing should be done but realistically we want to share our lives with big powerful animals and accidents and incidents are always going to happen, whether that be dogs, cow, horses or other human beings!


it is 7 people

john paul massey in 2009 - 4 years old.

andrew walker in 2009 - 21 years old.

jaden mack in 2009 - 3 months old.

archie lee-hirst in 2007 - 1 year old.

ellie lawrenson in 2007 - 5 years old.

cadey-lee deacon in 2006 - 5 months old.

and now poor jade.

i'd like to see owners to be made responsible and charged , i can't condemn the dogs , they are dogs - dogs often owned by complete and utter imbeciles who shouldn't be in charge of a goldfish , never mind a dog.
legislation don't work - time to make owners accountable.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

LexiLou2 said:


> I may be wrong but I read a statistic in a Daily Fail article and we know they over egg things that 7 people (5 of which are children) have been killed in dog attacks in the last 6 years.
> 
> Now I aren't taking anything away from the poor people that have lost their lives but what about the number of children and people in the last 6 years killed in road traffic accidents.....or in wars, or been trampled by cows or by falling coconuts.
> 
> I aren't saying that nothing should be done but realistically we want to share our lives with big powerful animals and accidents and incidents are always going to happen, whether that be dogs, cow, horses or other human beings!


This is what I always think. Clearly for the people involved each of these 7 incidents is more than you could ever have imagined or feared, but objectively... It's such a small number. According to a quick google search, in 2011, 11 people died in the bath tub. That means we are considerably more likely to die while in the bath, than we are from a dog attack.

Again, I don't want to take away from the victims or their families, but objectively, 7 in 6 years is such a small number. If anything, I'm surprised it's not used by the 'pro dog' corner to point out that ONLY 7 people have died in that time.


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

picaresque said:


> I can only speak from my experience of feeding it (boo, hiss etc) - while it didn't agree with my boy's tum (which is why I'd not buy it again), I didn't see any behavioural changes in either of my dogs. It would depend on the individual of course but I really find it laughable that cheap food is being touted as to why these dogs mauled a teenage girl to death. Wagg's main ingredient is wheat, not crystal meth.


I don't think it is all dogs but I do notice a dramatic difference in one of my dogs. Obviously all dogs don't react to it or it would be banned but I noticed behaviour, not aggressive behaviour but mouthy behaviour reemerging and trying to wind up other dogs. Like I said probably a combination of factors but I wondered if it did play a part in the same way some additives seem to have a dramatic impact on some people. I have seen people with when working in special needs become very aggresive with high levels of sugar in their diet. Obviously sugar doesn't make everyone behave in this way but diet does impact on behaviour and it seems to be more dramatic in some individuals so why not some dogs? Especially if those dogs have no access to burning off energy and have high stressors like fear aggression. 
Many people try and find human explainations but dogs sometimes only need one trigger point for things to get out of control.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nagini said:


> it is 7 people
> 
> john paul massey in 2009 - 4 years old.
> 
> ...


Notice any patterns here - because everytime I look at things to do with dog deaths I certainly do - the VAST majority are young children - if irresponsible people stopped leaving their dogs unattended with children the figures for deaths would go down by almost 100%

I looked up stats on dog deaths in the US last year and say out of 30 [not exact figures] most of those were young kids left unattended with a family dog


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Apparently 150 people are killed a year by falling coconuts, on average 2 people a year are trampled to death by cows, 2900 people are killed by hippos annually in Africa and 130 people (in the US) are killed by deer who cause fatal car accidents.

This sounds very morbid, but I find facts like this interesting.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Howl said:


> I don't think it is all dogs but I do notice a dramatic difference in one of my dogs. Obviously all dogs don't react to it or it would be banned but I noticed behaviour, not aggressive behaviour but mouthy behaviour reemerging and trying to wind up other dogs. Like I said probably a combination of factors but I wondered if it did play a part in the same way some additives seem to have a dramatic impact on some people. I have seen people with when working in special needs become very aggresive with high levels of sugar in their diet. Obviously sugar doesn't make everyone behave in this way but diet does impact on behaviour and it seems to be more dramatic in some individuals so why not some dogs? Especially if those dogs have no access to burning off energy and have high stressors like fear aggression.
> Many people try and find human explainations but dogs sometimes only need one trigger point for things to get out of control.


Fair points. But I really think bog standard supermarket dog food (which is fed to millions of dogs) is the least of the issues. Can't imagine that the same dogs, having been socialised (or not) just the same and cooped up with no exercise might have been ok if they'd just been fed on a mid range food like JWB.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

LexiLou2 said:


> Apparently 150 people are killed a year by falling coconuts, on average 2 people a year are trampled to death by cows, 2900 people are killed by hippos annually in Africa and 130 people (in the US) are killed by deer who cause fatal car accidents.
> 
> This sounds very morbid, but I find facts like this interesting.


And in the UK a child is murdered by their parents on average every 10 days. That's always been the statistic that sickens me the most.


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> Notice any patterns here - because everytime I look at things to do with dog deaths I certainly do - the VAST majority are young children - if irresponsible people stopped leaving their dogs unattended with children the figures for deaths would go down by almost 100%
> 
> I looked up stats on dog deaths in the US last year and say out of 30 [not exact figures] most of those were young kids left unattended with a family dog


And I often also wonder what the children were doing at the time. Sometimes it can be nothing but I wonder how many are a final straw incident where the child is behaving in a cruel way. You see so many dogs where you wonder how the dog stays so patient given the owner behaviour. Considering how many dogs are in very difficult homes it is amazing how patient they are in comparison to humans.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Snoringbear said:


> And in the UK a child is murdered by their parents on average every 10 days. That's always been the statistic that sickens me the most.


The 'an incident of domestic violence is reported once per minute' gets me every time


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

picaresque said:


> Wagg's main ingredient is wheat, not crystal meth.


http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/_resources/resources/factsheets09/factsheetbehaviouralproblems11.pdf may be an interesting read.. Specifically..


> Food and issues around eating At the most basic level what your dog eats, how often your dog eats and where your dog eats are really important to him. If your dog is a picky eater, or bolts his food in a few gulps, this can be a sign that something isn't quite right. Many behaviour problems can be aggravated by the type of food a dog is given, because this affects the serotonin levels (the 'feel - good' chemical) within his brain and serotonin is very much implicated in depression and aggression. How often and when your dog is fed is also a major factor, since some dogs, like us, can suffer from low blood sugar and this condition makes it very difficult for dogs to stay calm, when faced with a stressful situation.


Or how about Snarling dogs may merely be depressed - Telegraph which basically says the same. Guess what food ingredient is known to suppress serotonin levels... that couldn't be types of cereal could it?

It may seem snobbery to some, it may not effect the majority of dogs but food is something which could possibly be a contributing factor. To flip it to humans, many children are fine with artificial flavorings etc, for others it sets off hyperactivity etc. I personally don't think, if someone has an aggressive dog, food should be ignored as a possible thing to change.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Guess what food ingredient is known to suppress serotonin levels... that couldn't be types of cereal could it?


Has it?

I'm not denying that diet can have an impact on behaviour btw. Just think it's beyond silly how a bag of Wagg is being seized on as a major cause of a fatal dog attack.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> They just wouldn't bother - costs too much money
> 
> If they actually threw money at this problem it could be solved somewhat but really whats the priority in this economy - *not dogs that's for sure*


Not when they can spend £60million on a football ground, certainly, Got to get your priorities right.



Sosha said:


> Not convinced by the timing of this press release.
> 
> I'm not sure it's possible or desirable to legislate for stupid.
> 
> ...


Just where do you get off assuming that dangerous dogs are only owned by tenants, not important homeowners who can have as many dogs as they like. Considering how difficult it is to rent with dogs, it is far more likely that the majority are homeowners.



Kicksforkills said:


> We have a Pit Bull in our agility class.


Sorry but I find that highly unlikely.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> The 'an incident of domestic violence is reported once per minute' gets me every time


Me too, humans are by far the biggest danger to other humans


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Interesting link too from telegraph today that says the most aggressive dog breed is a dascshund whereas your pit bulls and rotties below average.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

picaresque said:


> Overcrowded, high drive dogs with no exercise potentially being an accident waiting to happen I certainly won't argue with but now Wagg is to blame?  'Budget kibble makes dogs kill!!!111!' I knew when I saw the picture that shows some of the dogs with a sack of the stuff in the background that that some would pick up on it. *Dog food snobbery taken to the extreme.*


Really?

These dogs mauled a girl over a pie.....do you really think they were given a sufficient diet?

I have used Wagg in the past and know from experience that dogs thrive better on better quality foods. Good alternative cheap foods such as skinners and CSJ's are very similar in price.

Food isn't the only reason these dogs did what they did, I didn't say that at all. However for them to react the way they did over food means there's something very wrong.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Anyone saying you have to have done something to a dog to make it attack you, you really don't. I was bitten by a dog for doing nothing at all but standing talking to someone over a fence. The dog just walked past and bit me, absolutely no reason or provocation whatsoever. So they can and will bite for no reason at all. Though I suppose some will try and make out that it was my fault for daring to be stood on a public road.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Nagini said:


> it is 7 people
> 
> john paul massey in 2009 - 4 years old.
> 
> ...


How correct is that list ? Did a baby boy not die earlier this year from a jack Russell bite 

Concidering how many children and dogs that must be left in each others company daily , it's a managed risk I'll continue to take !


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2013)

Pointermum said:


> How correct is that list ? Did a baby boy not die earlier this year from a jack Russell bite
> 
> Concidering how many children and dogs that must be left in each others company daily , it's a managed risk I'll continue to take !


it's very correct , all the information on each child/person is available on google.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Colette said:


> I'm curious.... exactly which breeds would you like to ban? Which breeds would you like to stop perfectly normal, responsible dog owners from having? And why? On what grounds?


Those chihuahua's look bloodthirsty to me.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Pixieandbow said:


> I was reading a bit more about this story and a couple of things struck me as interesting.
> 
> The dogs were confined to the kitchen and the two girls had gone to a neighbours to ask to warm the pies. Why didn't the warm them at home? Either they didn't have equipment to or the dogs were too dangerous.
> 
> ...


I live three miles from where this happened and know the houses in that area are tiny. I don't know how she managed to fit five dogs into the house. It's no wonder they were aggressive, they must have been stir crazy.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2013)

Pointermum said:


> How correct is that list ? Did a baby boy not die earlier this year from a jack Russell bite
> 
> Concidering how many children and dogs that must be left in each others company daily , it's a managed risk I'll continue to take !


john paul massey Boy, four, dies after dog attack in Liverpool | UK news | guardian.co.uk

andrew walker BBC NEWS | England | Lancashire | Dog owner's shock at man's death

jaden mack BBC News - Dangerous dog mauling 'latest in line'

archie lee-hirst BBC NEWS | England | West Yorkshire | Dog death baby was 'little angel'

ellie lawrenson BBC NEWS | England | Merseyside | Girl killed by pit bull terrier

cadey-lee deacon Baby's family tell of devastation at dog attack | UK news | guardian.co.uk

and also poor jade , who we are all very aware of

i have also found other children that have died , which for some reason weren't given as much publicity.

eta - just found another  
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...l-by-American-Bulldog-in-horrific-attack.html


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Really?
> 
> These dogs mauled a girl over a pie.....do you really think they were given a sufficient diet?
> 
> ...


Nobody knows exactly why the dogs attacked. Quite likely it had something to do with the pie but I fail to see how that must mean they were poorly fed. Any dog would be very interested in a hot meat pie. My (well fed) dogs certainly would be, however I'm pretty confident they wouldn't kill me for one...

ETA: Agree with your middle paragraph. I actually don't rate Wagg at all, but at the same time I don't think it'll make a dog crazy/dangerous.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

erinn said:


> Was the property rented then?
> 
> I'm actually quite annoyed at your post, do you think that people who live in rented accommodation are the only people with problem dogs? What about those that own their own home - their dogs are model citizens?


I'm not supporting the post on which you have commented, just answering your question, yes, in this case, quite possibly because that area does have a lot if council property but not having seen the actual house, I can't be certain.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

picaresque said:


> Nobody knows exactly why the dogs attacked. Quite likely it had something to do with the pie but I fail to see how that must mean they were poorly fed. Any dog would be very interested in a hot meat pie. My (well fed) dogs certainly would be, however I'm pretty confident they wouldn't kill me for one...
> 
> ETA: Agree with your middle paragraph. I actually don't rate Wagg at all, but at the same time I don't think it'll make a dog crazy/dangerous.


My dog liked warm or cold cat poo.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> My dog liked warm or cold cat poo.


Oh yeah, it's a doggie delicacy


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2013)

picaresque said:


> Nobody knows exactly why the dogs attacked. Quite likely it had something to do with the pie but I fail to see how that must mean they were poorly fed. Any dog would be very interested in a hot meat pie. My (well fed) dogs certainly would be, however I'm pretty confident they wouldn't kill me for one...
> 
> ETA: Agree with your middle paragraph. I actually don't rate Wagg at all, but at the same time I don't think it'll make a dog crazy/dangerous.


i'd say it was nothing to do with either. more than likely a mix of badly bred , under socialized , poorly trained dogs.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

picaresque said:


> Oh yeah, it's a doggie delicacy


She has to be pulled away from the litter trays. Sometimes, she can barely wait for them to finish. We try and scoop the tray before she gets to it.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> Anyone saying you have to have done something to a dog to make it attack you, you really don't. I was bitten by a dog for doing nothing at all but standing talking to someone over a fence. The dog just walked past and bit me, absolutely no reason or provocation whatsoever. So they can and will bite for no reason at all. Though I suppose some will try and make out that it was my fault for daring to be stood on a public road.


Sorry you got bit. I'd disagree that dogs that dogs do not bite without reason or provocation. All behaviour is based on a reaction to a stimulus. For a dog to bite it requires a reason. They just don't do it for no reason. I've been bitten a few times and I can with hindsight see the reasons, although that doesn't make it acceptable and your instance does mirror some of mine.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

blossom21 said:


> From an account in the paper today, the owner didnt walk or exercise these dogs,but she wasnt slow off the mark in breeding and selling them


And boasting that they were would be fiesty and aggressive on her facebook ads when selling the puppies!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Howl said:


> *And I often also wonder what the children were doing at the time. Sometimes it can be nothing but I wonder how many are a final straw incident where the child is behaving in a cruel way. *You see so many dogs where you wonder how the dog stays so patient given the owner behaviour. Considering how many dogs are in very difficult homes it is amazing how patient they are in comparison to humans.


I disagree. A bite, a few bites, but not a frenzied attack.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Sorry you got bit. I'd disagree that dogs that dogs do not bite without reason or provocation. All behaviour is based on a reaction to a stimulus. For a dog to bite it requires a reason. They just don't do it for no reason. I've been bitten a few times and I can with hindsight see the reasons, although that doesn't make it acceptable and your instance does mirror some of mine.


I honestly have no idea why it bit me. It literally walked past and sunk its teeth into me. You know if someone walked by you randomly and stabbed you for no apparent reason, and you'd done nothing but simply be stood there at the time? It basically was like that. By god it hurt too, I can't even begin to imagine how terrified that poor girl was being attacked by five, it was bad enough with one. I had blood pouring down my leg, screaming in pain, couldn't stop shaking and was treated for severe shock at the hospital. What the poor girl must have went through doesn't bare thinking about.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

We don't know all the details and never will as the only person involved is now deceased but it only takes a fight to break out and Jade to be caught in the middle of it for a fatality to occur. 

Lets face it, it seems the dogs had sod all else to enjoy in their lives and food was probably the one thing they actually got pleasure from - well that and the occasional sexual act. 

This woman needs horse whipping IMO and I hope she is utterly distraught with what she's helped cause, my heart goes out to Jades family. As for the dogs, they're probably better off dead than the way she was keeping them - selfish, ignorant woman and they were supposed to be her 'babies' yeah right!


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

The law on this is ridiculous. If I stabbed someone in my house in self defense that would be manslaughter...after all if it was self defense it wasn't pre-meditated...but I would still have stabbed someone. But I could knowingly keep dangerous dogs (possibly made more dangerous because of the way I treated them) and that's ok???

When will the campaigning start for a 'jade's law' that would make this manslaughter too


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nagini said:


> john paul massey Boy, four, dies after dog attack in Liverpool | UK news | guardian.co.uk
> 
> andrew walker BBC NEWS | England | Lancashire | Dog owner's shock at man's death
> 
> ...


Don't see the case where there were I think 7 dogs in the house that attacked the elderly friend/owner/feeder [only detail I recall is DDB were involved I think] That wasn't long ago

And the other case of 3 dogs turning on owner - but nobody cared about that because I believe a labrador was involved


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Really?
> 
> These dogs mauled a girl over a pie.....do you really think they were given a sufficient diet?
> 
> ...


What a ridiculous comment. So your dog jumps up in excitement at the smell of a meat pie and it means you have not been feeding them a sufficient diet  I really do despair sometimes.

No one was there, it is a tragedy. Taken the breeds and size of the dogs and the way they appear to have been kept it may have been an accident waiting to happen but it is totally stupid to make up reasons that excuse the dogs.

I am sure there has been many more deaths that google found. After all they would only find the well publicised ones and there will be plenty that were not got hold of by the press, to say nothing of the serious and not so serious attacks.
If someone sticks a knife in you it is a knife attack and the person is punished, whether they just nick you, put you in hospital with serious injuries or kill you.

Does it matter how dog attack deaths compare with other deaths. Each one is horrendous and for each one that does happen there are probably a huge number that are waiting to happen.
Surely no thinking person can really believe nothing should be done to try and get on top of it.
Just think, if something serious was done about it it might end up with less dog on dog attacks too and that should please all you lot that moan about nasty dogs around you all the time.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Blitz said:


> What a ridiculous comment. So your dog jumps up in excitement at the smell of a meat pie and it means you have not been feeding them a sufficient diet  I really do despair sometimes.
> 
> No one was there, it is a tragedy. Taken the breeds and size of the dogs and the way they appear to have been kept it may have been an accident waiting to happen but it is totally stupid to make up reasons that excuse the dogs.
> 
> ...


I think it really is an over reaction to say 'we must get on top of dog deaths' - there are about 2 or 3 per year out of how many dogs in this country 

There are far more deadly things out there that nobody seems to get up in arms about - probably because people don't seem to have romantic ideas about how placid cars should be or how tolerant a shark ideally is - In reality dogs are a completely different species to us that are repeatedly misused and misunderstood - and people seem to blame the dogs for this - ridiculous

I totally agree with you about the whole diet affair though - Kes gets fresh raw meat daily but it didn't stop her jumping up a few weeks ago when I had a squirrel in my hand


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> Anyone saying you have to have done something to a dog to make it attack you, you really don't. I was bitten by a dog for doing nothing at all but standing talking to someone over a fence. The dog just walked past and bit me, absolutely no reason or provocation whatsoever. So they can and will bite for no reason at all. Though I suppose some will try and make out that it was my fault for daring to be stood on a public road.


The dog had a reason. You may not know what that reason was, perhaps a sudden movement or he didn't like the sound of your laugh, but he had a reason.



Sacremist said:


> Those chihuahua's look bloodthirsty to me.


Every chihuaha I have ever met has been bloodthirsty! But they are only little and they don't look dangerous, so let's leave them alone.



Blitz said:


> What a ridiculous comment. So your dog jumps up in excitement at the smell of a meat pie and it means you have not been feeding them a sufficient diet  I really do despair sometimes.
> 
> No one was there, it is a tragedy. Taken the breeds and size of the dogs and the way they appear to have been kept it may have been an accident waiting to happen but it is totally stupid to make up reasons that excuse the dogs.
> 
> ...


You are quite right, but the answer is not in prosecution and dog licences. To my mind the answer lies in a properly run animal police force, who will take action at all reported animal neglect, not just making sure they have food, water and shelter.

If these dogs had been reported to the RSPCA for never being walked, for being overbred and kept in a small kitchen, they would have said nothing they can do. This is the result.

Had we a properly regulated animal force who could and would do something, we would not have so many numpties with pound signs in their eyes keeping dogs and not treating them properly.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

picaresque said:


> Overcrowded, high drive dogs with no exercise potentially being an accident waiting to happen I certainly won't argue with but now Wagg is to blame?  'Budget kibble makes dogs kill!!!111!' I knew when I saw the picture that shows some of the dogs with a sack of the stuff in the background that that some would pick up on it. Dog food snobbery taken to the extreme.


Could not agree more.

My last dog Billy was on budget food and there was not an aggressive bone in his body. He never touched anyone with his teeth or turned his noseup.

How silly to blame food. How many dogs eat chappie through bad tummies yet are not attacking people or dogs?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

enviroment, lack of socialisation and lack of excercise more likely to play a part than cheap food imo. Dogs need daily excercise. Mine are out at 7.30 a.m. don't know i have them all day . they're contented hounds.


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

They say they don't know the specifics of the incident so shut up and stop speculating until you do. They just wind people up and lot of innocent dogs and their owners will be condemned.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

foxiesummer said:


> They say they don't know the specifics of the incident so shut up and stop speculating until you do. They just wind people up and lot of inncocent dogs and their owners will be condemned.


I don't think telling people to "shut up" is productive, really. Every one is entitled to their opinion on the incident, and if people read the views of experienced dog owners, it may make them avoid the same mistakes.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> Anyone saying you have to have done something to a dog to make it attack you, you really don't. I was bitten by a dog for doing nothing at all but standing talking to someone over a fence. The dog just walked past and bit me, absolutely no reason or provocation whatsoever. So they can and will bite for no reason at all. *Though I suppose some will try and make out that it was my fault for daring to be stood on a public road.*


No. It's not about it being your fault, but the dog still will have had a reason. There is a reason for everything. Cause and effect. Just because you cannot see the reason does not mean it was not there. It may have been that the dog felt threatened by how you were standing, it may have been that the dog had had a bad past experience of people that look like you, it may have been that the dog was under socialised and petrified of everybody. We don't know, but we do know, due to the laws of cause and effect, there was a reason. This is not the same as blaming the person that was bitten.



Wobbles said:


> I honestly have no idea why it bit me. It literally walked past and sunk its teeth into me. *You know if someone walked by you randomly and stabbed you for no apparent reason, and you'd done nothing but simply be stood there at the time? *It basically was like that.


If this happened, there would also be a reason for it! It would be that that person was unhinged, it could be that they wanted your purse etc etc but there would still be a reason, even if it wasn't one that most people could relate to.


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

Alice Childress said:


> No. It's not about it being your fault, but the dog still will have had a reason. There is a reason for everything. Cause and effect. Just because you cannot see the reason does not mean it was not there. It may have been that the dog felt threatened by how you were standing, it may have been that the dog had had a bad past experience of people that look like you, it may have been that the dog was under socialised and petrified of everybody. We don't know, but we do know, due to the laws of cause and effect, there was a reason. This is not the same as blaming the person that was bitten.
> 
> If this happened, there would also be a reason for it! It would be that that person was unhinged, it could be that they wanted your purse etc etc but there would still be a reason, even if it wasn't one that most people could relate to.


I was bitten on the back of my leg by a dog. I was unlocking the gate to our allotment and this collie bit me for no reason. Didnt even look or speak to it prior to the incident. I told the police but agreed to it not being pts as long as it was kept under control. Weeks later it bit a child and was pts. As it was a collie it probs though I was a sheep.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

foxiesummer said:


> I was bitten on the back of my leg by a dog. I was unlocking the gate to our allotment and this collie bit me for no reason. Didnt even look or speak to it prior to the incident. I told the police but agreed to it not being pts as long as it was kept under control. Weeks later it bit a child and was pts. As it was a collie it probs though I was a sheep.


I would guess that was exactly it, and why the child was bitten too. 
The dog died merely for being a collie with inbred collie instincts and behaviours...


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

lauren001 said:


> I would guess that was exactly it, and why the child was bitten too.
> The dog died merely for being a collie with inbred collie instincts and behaviours...


I would suggest the dog was pts as it was not kept under control


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

foxiesummer said:


> I was bitten on the back of my leg by a dog. *I was unlocking the gate to our allotment and this collie bit me for no reason.* Didnt even look or speak to it prior to the incident. I told the police but agreed to it not being pts as long as it was kept under control. Weeks later it bit a child and was pts. As it was a collie it probs though I was a sheep.


No reason that YOU could see!! The whole universe is subject to the laws of cause and effect, dogs are no different.

Again, the collie may now have been properly socialised, the collie may have had a bad experience with someone the same gender/race as yourself. You may not have directly done anything to the dog, but there was a reason.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> Could not agree more.
> 
> My last dog Billy was on budget food and there was not an aggressive bone in his body. He never touched anyone with his teeth or turned his noseup.


You'll notice nobody has only blamed food With the stress already due to so many factors it may have been an additional nudge however. As previously stated I think it's a major mistake to ignore diet when it comes to problems with behavior.

If you want more anecdotal evidence going with only levels of carbohydrates... (we'll ignore artificial additives, types of grain with whatever other contaminants they have etc)

High carb diets and behavior by Liz Palika
http://www.caninetrainingessentials.com/images/Diet.pdf and I'll quote just one section..


> As many as 1.5 million dogs per year are put to sleep, removed from their home or sent to an animal shelter because of destructive behavior, separation anxiety, unexplainable fears/aggression/timidity, difficulty focusing on tasks, nuisance barking, housesoiling, personality problems, and compulsive behaviors such as chewing, circling or obsessive grooming. As a dogtrainer, many of my clients come to me with the same problems. As I asses the contributing factors to these behaviors, diet continually plays a large role


Should be noted, not talking simply "budget" food here.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sorry if this is veering off topic a bit but has anyone seen the USA programme 'Pitbulls & Parolees'?

It's very moving. It features a woman and her daughters who run a rescue for Pitbulls, and she has many men working there who have just come out of prison.

The dogs are adorable - really lovable. I've been in tears several times, watching them find new homes, and the way the parolees bond with some of the dogs.


RE the tragic death of Jade: I really hope the owner of the dogs is held responsible.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> I think it really is an over reaction to say 'we must get on top of dog deaths' - there are about 2 or 3 per year out of how many dogs in this country
> 
> There are far more deadly things out there that nobody seems to get up in arms about - probably because people don't seem to have romantic ideas about how placid cars should be or how tolerant a shark ideally is - In reality dogs are a completely different species to us that are repeatedly misused and misunderstood - and people seem to blame the dogs for this - ridiculous
> 
> I totally agree with you about the whole diet affair though - Kes gets fresh raw meat daily but it didn't stop her jumping up a few weeks ago when I had a squirrel in my hand


It is not deaths caused by dogs that need to be got on top of - it is the whole culture of having dogs that are not safe to be around. The handful of deaths are tragic but are a by product of the way that dogs are bred and kept - and this is what needs to be got on top of. Too many dogs are antisocial.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Goblin said:


> You'll notice nobody has only blamed food With the stress already due to so many factors it may have been an additional nudge however. As previously stated I think it's a major mistake to ignore diet when it comes to problems with behavior.
> 
> If you want more anecdotal evidence going with only levels of carbohydrates... (we'll ignore artificial additives, types of grain with whatever other contaminants they have etc)
> 
> ...


I just don't really believe that's in any way part of the blame.

The quote you shared, all of those dogs the reason is not clear or proven and is as much as one woman's guess as to why they are rehomed with these issues. TBH I see a lot of dogs fed a good balanced diet who still have some of those issues too.

I know it's not simply budget food, however my dog was on a food that was comparable in bad quality to wag. Had none of the issues and wasn't trained by any means, just lived side by side with us and there was never any issues.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Blitz said:


> It is not deaths caused by dogs that need to be got on top of - it is the whole culture of having dogs that are not safe to be around. The handful of deaths are tragic but are a by product of the way that dogs are bred and kept - and this is what needs to be got on top of. Too many dogs are antisocial.


Agreed.
I think too much is being put on the death and people are saying it's only a handful, there are thousands hospitalised each year because of bites and attacks that do not result in deaths, let alone dog on dog attacks.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Blitz said:


> What a ridiculous comment. So your dog jumps up in excitement at the smell of a meat pie and it means you have not been feeding them a sufficient diet  I really do despair sometimes.


No, but if your dog kills for a meat pie then I don't believe they are fed on a sufficient diet. My dogs would beg for a pie but they certainly wouldn't attack/kill me or anyone else for one.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> No, but if your dog kills for a meat pie then I don't believe they are fed on a sufficient diet. My dogs would beg for a pie but they certainly wouldn't attack/kill me or anyone else for one.


I really don't believe they killed for a meat pie TBH!


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> No, but if your dog kills for a meat pie then I don't believe they are fed on a sufficient diet. My dogs would beg for a pie but they certainly wouldn't attack/kill me or anyone else for one.


I am a self proclaimed food snob - but even I am perplexed by just HOW the fact the dogs were Wagg supposedly contributed to those dogs killing that dear girl. ut:


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Nagini said:


> it's very correct , all the information on each child/person is available on google.


I'm saying i think there is at least one missing that i know of in the last few months.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

When dogs get this far gone, it's rarely because of ONE single reason. It's a compounding combination of factors. A recipe if you will.
Start with a dog of any breed, toss in a some iffy genetics, add some poor or no socialization, mix in some poor or no training, blend with frustration and stress, add in more dogs with the same ingredients, top with neglectful, irresponsible owners and ta da! You have your finished product - a dog who maims or kills. 

TBH, as often as this recipe is mixed up you would think we'd have a lot more tragic incidents than we do. But we don't. Which to me is a testament to the true nature of dogs.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

SixStar said:


> I am a self proclaimed food snob - but even I am perplexed by just HOW the fact the dogs were Wagg supposedly contributed to those dogs killing that dear girl. ut:


http://www.caninetrainingessentials.com/images/Diet.pdf

How Your Dog's Behavior is Linked to Nutrition



> The diet you select for your dog may affect not only his health but also his behavior. A clear link exists between a well-balanced, biologically appropriate diet and improved behavior. The right balance of good-quality nutrition can decrease your dogs levels of stress, helping him be calmer and more relaxed. By providing the proper nutrition his body needs, your dog will have less of a tendency to exhibit unwanted behaviors.





> *A dog on a poor diet *may be underweight or overweight, have a dry brittle coat, dental problems or foul breath.
> *Poor nutrition* may stress the dogs body. A stressed dog does not digest foods well and can have intestinal problems like gas and diarrhea. He may also exhibit signs of separation anxiety or even pain.
> Some dogs cannot digest high levels of incomplete proteins and thus dont get the necessary amino acids they need to thrive. A dog deprived of high-quality protein or other nutrients may exhibit a number of unwanted behaviors, including:
> Counter-surfingstealing food from a counter or tabletop
> ...


And finally, like I said the food wont be the only reason the dogs attacked but mixed with the poor walking ect it's a recipe for disaster.



> There is no direct link between dog food and aggression in dogs. Its probably not possible to point to one particular dog food and say that you shouldnt feed it because it will make your dog more aggressive. *However, feeding a dog a generally poor diet can be a contributing factor in aggression.*
> 
> *There are studies which have suggested that feeding a dog poor quality foods can contribute to aggression.* Preservatives and sugar in dog food may be linked to hyperactive behavior which may increase the possibility of aggression. Artificial coloring in some foods have been linked to aggression, hyperactivity, timidity, learning difficulties and other behavioral problems. Insufficient cholesterol in the diet may also be a contributing factor in some dogs since it is needed for proper brain function. Poor diet can also contribute to allergies which can, in turn, increase a likelihood of aggression if the dog is in any kind of physical distress.


It's my opinion that mixed with the lack of dog activities (walking, mental stimulation ect) the pie was just too tempting. There's a big difference between a dog begging for food and resorting to aggression to get the food.

Do you believe she would have been killed if she hadn't had food in her hand?


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

ouesi said:


> When dogs get this far gone, it's rarely because of ONE single reason. It's a compounding combination of factors. A recipe if you will.
> Start with a dog of any breed, toss in a some iffy genetics, add some poor or no socialization, mix in some poor or no training, blend with frustration and stress, add in more dogs with the same ingredients, top with neglectful, irresponsible owners and ta da! You have your finished product - a dog who maims or kills.
> 
> TBH, as often as this recipe is mixed up you would think we'd have a lot more tragic incidents than we do. But we don't. * Which to me is a testament to the true nature of dogs.[/*QUOTE]
> ...


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

dandogman said:


> All breeds are covered under the dangerous dogs act though


Should be, agreed but it is a grey area. The police are not interested unless the dog is a banned breed or breed type ie having characteristis of a banned breed.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> http://www.caninetrainingessentials.com/images/Diet.pdf
> 
> How Your Dog's Behavior is Linked to Nutrition
> 
> ...


If we're being nit picky then, you feed yours Royal Canin don't you? It contains the same cariogenic additives and chemicals that are found in Wagg - what do your dogs behave like? 

I am not saying for one minute that nutrition does not play a part in dogs behaviour - I firmly believe it does. But to say the dogs killed the girl because they wanted the pie because they were fed Wagg is just plain stupid, and it would be laughable if not in such tragic circumstances.

No one knows the truth of what happened apart from that poor girl. Was the meat pie a factor? Possibly. Do I think they mauled her purely to get the pie? No. Maybe one of them went to get the pie - jumping up at her - she panicked as the vast majority of people would if a large dog jumped at them - and maybe she pushed the dog down, getting the dog and the others riled up in the process, it does not take a lot for things to get out of control, pack mentality sets in etc.

If the dogs were underwalked, undersocalised etc (I actually haven't read an awful lot about the story so don't know anything other than the bare essentials, not read much about the dogs themselves) and fed food with chemical additives then yes, those were maybe contributing factors in the case - but I don't know, _you_ don't know. It's cringe worthy reading you say it was because of Wagg. How do we know this anyway? Is it just because there is a sack in the bag of one of the pictures?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Just read a post on Facebook about a couple who got a BM puppy last weekend. Apparently, thanks to media scaremongering, they received a torrent of abuse for owning a dangerous dog from others in their village and ended up returning the puppy to the breeder. Same breeder is having an older dog returned for similar reasons.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Snoringbear said:


> Just read a post on Facebook about a couple who got a BM puppy last weekend. Apparently, thanks to media scaremongering, they received a torrent of abuse for owning a dangerous dog from others in their village and ended up returning the puppy to the breeder. Same breeder is having an older dog returned for similar reasons.


Honestly- this says more to me about those owners than the people giving the 'abuse'.

Yeah we all have a moan about idiots who judge bullies on looks and media scaremongering but I feel as much as I don't agree I would never give up my pet, but instead would try my best to make them the best example of their 'type' i could.

People love to portray them as 'strong-willed dogs' well I'm afraid if people think that's true they need a strong minded owner.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> No reason that YOU could see!! The whole universe is subject to the laws of cause and effect, dogs are no different.
> 
> Again, the collie may now have been properly socialised, the collie may have had a bad experience with someone the same gender/race as yourself. You may not have directly done anything to the dog, but there was a reason.


Or it could simply have been a dog with a nasty agressive temperament?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

i think it's ridiculous food is being blamed , lets blame the dogs , lets blame food they are fed on , lets blame the meat pie!! 

lots of dogs are fed inadequate diets , yet they don't go out and kill people!

blame the owner , blame the environment they were kept in because at the end of the day that IS what it boils down to.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Or it could simply have been a dog with a nasty agressive temperament?


I am a firm believer in the line of thought that dogs _always_ bite for a reason - the reason may not always be clear, but it's always there.

Not long after we adopted Blue he bit my husband - badly, the bite needed glue and twelve stitches - it appeared to be completely unprovoked - my husband walked past Blue and he jumped from the laying down position to bite his hand. My husband did not touch Blue, go to touch him, knowingly spook him or anything like that. Six years down the line we are still not sure what the reason for the bite was - and of course, we never will do - but I'm sure as anything that there was one, we just don't know what is was.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Nagini said:


> i think it's ridiculous food is being blamed , lets blame the dogs , lets blame food they are fed on , lets blame the meat pie!!
> 
> lots of dogs are fed inadequate diets , yet they don't go out and kill people!
> 
> blame the owner , blame the environment they were kept in because at the end of the day that IS what it boils down to.


Bang on.

Millions of dogs around the walk are fed the cheap coloured foods, have no or few walks and receive little or no socialisation. They're not all mauling the nearest person with food!


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

SixStar said:


> If we're being nit picky then, you feed yours Royal Canin don't you? It contains the same cariogenic additives and chemicals that are found in Wagg - what do your dogs behave like?


I never said it was just down to wagg, please read my original post.



shetlandlover said:


> Judging from information in the media and on her facebook page the *lady didn't feed the dogs a very good diet (wag), didn't really walk them, admitted her bull mastiff disliked children but kept it anyway, bred and gave the pups to anyone willing to pay and the list goes on.*
> 
> Such an unethical owner, its only a matter of time before dogs kept in these conditions snap. Maybe a pie was just too good to resist considering what they are usually fed on.
> 
> ...


Re; Wagg vs Royal canin. I know RC is not the best food on the market and yes my 3 Shelties are fed on it however there's quite a difference in the level of additives in each.

When Scorcher went through her hate food phase we used Wagg as it was what she was fed on before she came to me, when on Wagg she was constantly hungry, she needed to eat twice as much than she did of the better foods.

When I changed her onto RC her apatite was much better, she was content after eating which she never was after Wagg.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Julesky said:


> Honestly- this says more to me about those owners than the people giving the 'abuse'.
> 
> Yeah we all have a moan about idiots who judge bullies on looks and media scaremongering but I feel as much as I don't agree I would never give up my pet, but instead would try my best to make them the best example of their 'type' i could.
> 
> People love to portray them as 'strong-willed dogs' well I'm afraid if people think that's true they need a strong minded owner.


Given what I read, the puppy wouldn't have a hope in that environment. Being completely shunned would make socialisation a nightmare. In this instance the pup could have a better life elsewhere. I do agree with everything you've said though.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I never said it was just down to wagg, please read my original post.
> 
> Re; Wagg vs Royal canin. I know RC is not the best food on the market and yes my 3 Shelties are fed on it however there's quite a difference in the level of additives in each.
> 
> ...


Royal Canin is the best food on the market as far as my dogs are concerned. Everything else, except Chappie, gives them the squelchies.

I would imagine the girl had a meat pie, the dogs went for each other because there was food about and the girl got in the way. Simple really, but still the dogs' owner is to blame. No one else.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I never said it was just down to wagg, please read my original post.
> 
> Re; Wagg vs Royal canin. I know RC is not the best food on the market and yes my 3 Shelties are fed on it however there's quite a difference in the level of additives in each.
> 
> ...


Wagg v Royal Canin is a debate for another day.

We do not know any facts - we do not know what the dogs were fed, how much or how little they were walked, what kind of conditions they were kept it. Facebook and the media are hardly renown for being reliable sources of information 

There has been no word from the horses mouth so to speak - the owner - everything is just speculation, hearsay and rumours - very sad considering, at the end of the day, a young girl has lost her life.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Snoringbear said:


> Given what I read, the puppy wouldn't have a hope in that environment. Being completely shunned would make socialisation a nightmare. In this instance the pup could have a better life elsewhere. I do agree with everything you've said though.


True, true.. but I'm always careful with what i read- you never know the owners may just have changed their mind based on their own opinion changing of the breed- which again is up to them- but easy to point the finger at the 'baying hounds' if they were too ashamed to admit it.

Sad to say I saw the owners facebook page in this particular tragedy and very sad to say many of her friends have bull breed dogs they repeatedly say they don't trust or don't like or are scared of.

Your original post probably only reflects a small percentage of dogs that will probably have been affected.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Or it could simply have been a dog with a nasty agressive temperament?


And why would a dog have a 'simply nasty aggressive temperament'?? (Not that I believe that any dog is 'simply nasty', but hey, lets go with that for the moment). It will be either nurture or nature... Either one, still counts as a reason! There is an explanation and cause for all behaviour. Be it, dodgy breeding, iffy genetic tendencies, poor socialisation, or a threatened dog. These are all reasons.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

shetlandlover said:


> I never said it was just down to wagg, please read my original post.
> 
> Re; Wagg vs Royal canin. I know RC is not the best food on the market and yes my 3 Shelties are fed on it however there's quite a difference in the level of additives in each.
> 
> ...


think a lot of people are missing the point - 5 bull breeds all kept within the same environment, together for christs sake , all highly reactive dogs when placed in an environment in which they live together , where were the crates , gates , safety measures to keep these dogs apart when the owner couldn't be present ? looks like both the mastiffs were males - theres a golden rule there , never keep dogs of that breed that are the same sex because you can expect to have fireworks , it's been well publicised that the one bull mastiff were an aggressive dog that was castrated in the hope he could be calmed down but when you've got 3-4 other bull breeds bouncing off the walls due to many factors , it was never destined to work really - those dogs didn't really have a chance because they were failed on so many levels by their owner which sadly leaves a family grieving for their daughter.
this so easily could have been prevented , had the owner just had a clue about what she had in her home.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> And why would a dog have a 'simply nasty aggressive temperament'?? (Not that I believe that any dog is 'simply nasty', but hey, lets go with that for the moment). It will be either nurture or nature... Either one, still counts as a reason! There is an explanation and cause for all behaviour. Be it, dodgy breeding, iffy genetic tendencies, poor socialisation, or a threatened dog. These are all reasons.


Good breeders breed for temperament don't they? If no dog had an iffy temperament then it would not be necessary to have to consider temperament


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Good breeders breed for temperament don't they? If no dog had an iffy temperament then it would not be necessary to have to consider temperament


Um... Yes. I covered that in my post. If a dog with a genetic tendency towards aggression due to bad breeding, ends up with an iffy temperament, then... _that_ is still a_ reason_ for the dog biting! Did you read my post? I said that nature, as in genetics, could be a reason, but that it still a reason.

I personally find calling any dog 'simply nasty' pretty unpleasant, we clearly see things differently on this subject though.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Nagini said:


> think a lot of people are missing the point - 5 bull breeds all kept within the same environment, together for christs sake , all highly reactive dogs when placed in an environment in which they live together , *where were the crates , gates , safety measures to keep these dogs apart when the owner couldn't be present ?* looks like both the mastiffs were males - theres a golden rule there , never keep dogs of that breed that are the same sex because you can expect to have fireworks , it's been well publicised that the one bull mastiff were an aggressive dog that was castrated in the hope he could be calmed down but when you've got 3-4 other bull breeds bouncing off the walls due to many factors , it was never destined to work really - those dogs didn't really have a chance because they were failed on so many levels by their owner which sadly leaves a family grieving for their daughter.
> this so easily could have been prevented , had the owner just had a clue about what she had in her home.


This for crying out loud! How can you have a dog who you KNOW is aggressive and not crate him when you're not home?! KNOWING that a child is coming in and out as well? That blows my mind! It's not a breed issue, it's plain common sense!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> Um... Yes. I covered that in my post. If a dog with a genetic tendency towards aggression due to bad breeding, ends up with an iffy temperament, then... _that_ is still a_ reason_ for the dog biting! Did you read my post? I said that nature, as in genetics, could be a reason, but that it still a reason.
> 
> I personally find calling any dog 'simply nasty' pretty unpleasant, we clearly see things differently on this subject though.


It might be a reason but you sound like you are backpeddling now.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I believe a dog can just be nasty. If people can then dogs can.

All dogs are different and have different personalities even with the exact same breeding and upbringing. I do believe some can just have a very bad attitude.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

i've actually just read on facebook , that the owners son has admitted IT WAS all down to how the dogs were raised and reared , speaks volumes.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> Um... Yes. I covered that in my post. If a dog with a genetic tendency towards aggression due to bad breeding, ends up with an iffy temperament, then... _that_ is still a_ reason_ for the dog biting! Did you read my post? I said that nature, as in genetics, could be a reason, but that it still a reason.
> 
> I personally find calling any dog 'simply nasty' pretty unpleasant, we clearly see things differently on this subject though.


Sorry but I just think you are being unrealistic, why is it unpleasant - all dogs are not cutesy bundles of fluff you get boisterous ones, timid ones, nervous ones etc all within even the same litter but you don't want to accept that you can get aggressive dogs simply because thats their nature.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

It never ceases to amaze me how we can accept that human beings can be born with mental health issues that leads them to commit horrendous crimes like those committed by serial killers, who often show a tendency towards psychosis as children when they begin by killing animals, and yet some animal lovers find it impossible to accept that some animals may not all be as sweet and fluffy as we want them to be. Yes, more often than not it probably is down to bad owners but that does not mean there are no exceptions to that rule. Admittedly the number of animals that are an exception to the rule is probably quite small but I refuse to believe it is not possible under any circumstances. To think otherwise is just being naive.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Why can't a dog just be born with a screw loose or attitude problems? If its always the owner to blame, how come no one says its always the parents to blame when someone murders someone? Parents are responsible for bringing up their kids, but no one says its their fault when said kid goes and stabs/shoots someone. 

Yes all dogs can bite and attack, but not to the same degree of damage. If my toy poodle attacked me, one hard kick would stop him in his tracks. If a bull mastiff attacked it wouldn't be the same story. I wonder if the girl knew the dogs were in the house or not? I don't know many people who would voluntarily go into a house with 5 dogs like that alone. They don't exactly look approachable or like cute fluffy lapdogs. Even if I knew them, I'd never have gone near them on their own.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Alice Childress said:


> Um... Yes. I covered that in my post. If a dog with a genetic tendency towards aggression due to bad breeding, ends up with an iffy temperament, then... _that_ is still a_ reason_ for the dog biting! Did you read my post? I said that nature, as in genetics, could be a reason, but that it still a reason.
> 
> I personally find calling any dog 'simply nasty' pretty unpleasant, we clearly see things differently on this subject though.


this wasn't just a bite though was it , a young girl is dead because of a mauling.
i've said it before and i'll say it again , it's generally accepted when you have multiple bull breeds you put measures in place for the safety of the dogs and people on your property.
it's well known there doesn't have to be a genetic problem as to why bull breeds get themselves into situations , many are known to be dog to dog aggressive - put 5 bull breeds dogs into the mix , that have had little or no socialization , forced into a situation in which they all live together anyone with an ounce of sense ought to be expecting things to go off with a bang!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Nagini said:


> i've actually just read on facebook , that the owners son has admitted IT WAS all down to how the dogs were raised and reared , speaks volumes.


It does. Can't see the media taking that on board though unfortunately. Do you have links to their comment? Can't find anything.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Snoringbear said:


> It does. Can't see the media taking that on board though unfortunately. Do you have links to their comment? Can't find anything.


i'll PM you the link as it links directly to his profile which i don't want to publicize really being as he's had little to do with her for a while now , again speaks volumes don't it


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

*laws are missing to PROSECUTE even THESE IRRESPONSIBLE OWNERS in this tragic case right now. *

and in the RAGE felt by us people generally about a tragic death...we look for REASONS...but also ACTIONS NEEDED. for prevention and punishment...

MORE CONTROLS as suggested by some here even if some manage to escape them and EDUCATION about DIET, EXERCISE, EDUCATION, TRAINING of dogs like taking driving tests for cars are USEFUL to reduce the large number of bites other than death ending ones that occur that are not reported much or we would have a page a day in newspapers on it...of DOGS and HUMANS !!! 
well that is a TALL ORDER hey ! and COSTLY ! and will miss out some ! i hold my hand up and say thinking i am a reasonable dog owner of course of powerful jawed dogs that even reading trying to educate myself AS IS STILL NEEDED by ME there are so many theories and little time and mistakes are human made that it is not easy. I will NOT therefore BLAME OWNERS for all the dog bad behaviours always when the dogs could be just bonkers or disobedient suddenly even if trained but yes I hold the OWNER RESPONSIBLE and the OWNER should PAY for the consequences of that ! and laws are missing as people here excuse me those i dont quote i havent managed that techi thing yet well...laws are missing to PROSECUTE even THESE IRRESPONSIBLE OWNERS in this tragic case right now.

*QUOTES I SELECTED...not all but just trying as it is good to read them all as i try to...*

*excuse the length of post...at the bottom i copy relevant to this on another thread post i did...useful reading i suggest there too...*

.........................

<<I really don't believe they killed for a meat pie TBH!>>

some peoples opinion, we are all looking and giving REASONS for the attack based on known facts given !

just ONE of MANY POSSIBLe errr REASONS ! nothing is every without a REASON dogs are not SPECIAL in that ! humans always have a REASON for stealing killing starting wars etc ! finding the REASON does not EXCUSE the human or the dog. no. but that seems to be the implication when this expression is used...dogs dont kill or attack for no reason...well yes there ARE reasons that cannot be blamed on the owner or breeder sometimes ! the dog could be MAD ! sick ! just have a bad caractere ! is that NOT possible ? do NO dogs have bad caracters at all ? um well we are making an assumption then not based on any FACTS that can be proven in reality ! we dont know if some dogs have sudden psychological reactions out of the ordinary to things because we dont know even the minds of HUMANS well enough to know that for sure ! something SNAPS in humans sometimes ! they kill maim out of what is it called...MAD DOG SYNDROME ? no the expression is...MOMENTARY INSANITY ! so how come we know animals cant suffer from this mental problem also ?

<<There are far more deadly things out there that nobody seems to get up in arms about - probably because people don't seem to have romantic ideas about how placid cars should be or how tolerant a shark ideally is - In reality dogs are a completely different species to us that are repeatedly misused and misunderstood - and people seem to blame the dogs for this - ridiculous>>

<<The dog had a reason. You may not know what that reason was, perhaps a sudden movement or he didn't like the sound of your laugh, but he had a reason
To my mind the answer lies in a properly run animal police force, who will take action at all reported animal neglect, not just making sure they have food, water and shelter.>>

<<Concidering how many children and dogs that must be left in each others company daily , it's a managed risk I'll continue to take ! >>

fine for you in your view ! not in line with kc policy advised in this case and i suggest dangerous to suggest as a general policy for all dog owners...if we make such statements i think we should add if they are relevant for OTHER people too ? or are we saying let everyone decide for themselves...which is actually what is happening right now with no controls on such irresponsible owners....

<<I live three miles from where this happened and know the houses in that area are tiny. I don't know how she managed to fit five dogs into the house. It's no wonder they were aggressive, they must have been stir crazy.
Nobody knows exactly why the dogs attacked. Quite likely it had something to do with the pie>>

crazy dogs mentioned ! well maybe they were mentallly ill ! another possible REASON ! or the PIE ! we are all looking for the REASONS possible...there are many ! all could have contributed in my view in fact ! there are in fact SO MANY REASONS valid suggested here that were strong CONTRIBUTING FACTORS that it is horrifying ! and how to deal with just SOME of them is a good thing to consider ! and take actions for ...
....

<<I looked up stats on dog deaths in the US last year and say out of 30 [not exact figures] most of those were young kids left unattended with a family dog>>

quite right ...so children are most at risk and the KC general policy of adivisng supervision of dogs in presence of kids is excellent.

<<food is something which could possibly be a contributing factor>>

quite possibly although i did also laugh at the food snob comments made on this point ...we need some humour...and EDUCATION in high quality food for humans or dogs is an issue in our ummm fastfood love rubbish food world...fat is the newest human cause of deaths in the world for the first time in history it is said nowadays...and reaction foood or whatever excuse me the term techie is for it also...

<<Now I aren't taking anything away from the poor people that have lost their lives but what about the number of children and people in the last 6 years killed in road traffic accidents.....or in wars, or been trampled by cows or by falling coconuts.>>

see my fuller comment below cars are seen as essential tools of our lives but not dogs. so we accept but put in controls over cars to prevent deaths and are more outraged at dog caused fewer deaths because dogs are not cars under similar controls even as to owning them. and a human life taken by a dog is not acceptable to most people indeed any people i go so far as to say.

<<I have no problem with the breed, as long as it is in the hands of experienced and responsible owners.>>

that is a PERSONAL view not all share. all are entitled to views of their own, and Defining and CONTROLLING therefore what you or authorities call responsible owners is needed. this statement stops before saying HOW responsible owners are going to be defined or controlled i suggest.

<<I'm actually quite annoyed at your post, do you think that people who live in rented accommodation are the only people with problem dogs? What about those that own their own home - their dogs are model citizens?>>

sigh oh dear dislike of stereotyping the type of irresponsible owners of such dogs....the poster did not state all people living in rented are unreasonable people so need controls over in order to own a dog...the main point was CONTROLS over people owning dogs are needed...landlords being able or possible to do checks or controls is just saying who should be part of the process...in this case of Jade the accomodation is i and others believe rented so in the mind of the suggestion...

<<Some dogs like newfiesmum said can be really unpredictable around food regardless of how well they were brought up and temprement. >>

very true statement even if a generalisation ! some training fails ! or fails just occasionally...

i find it irritating that anyone other than those i admire of course with PERFECTLY TRAINED NEVER PUT A FOOT OUTTA Line dogs say training and passing a diploma in something guarantees the dog will never bite or do the taught unacceptable behaviour at all.

If we dont accept ALL dogs or animals can be occasionally unpredictable well that is to me PETER PAN syndrome. that does NOT mean i dont agree training helps reduce the risks greatly !

<<it's about OWNERS not any breed AT ALL>>

err no i disagree. it is about DOGS !

here i see a jumping to defend a specific breed of dog rather than DOGS generally i add. DOGS killed a child, the OWNERS have to be held as responsible under laws that dont yet exist to punish them and deter other such owners in the future.

If the dogs had a reason known only to them for killing this child we cant say that for sure. dogs dont talk our language do not explain to us THEIR reasons for doing anything. We humans INTERPRET their behaviour and allocate REASONS to them that the dogs have not agreed to or made obvious not being able to talk in human language.

I dont think that is an unreasonable statement by me, i refuse to accept even the highest qualified dog expert could say with certainty why a dog did anything like this. Just as no more able to make conclusions doctor could give absolute but near enough better reasons for humans that kill on the spur of the moment. Everyone has a REASON for such an action but it is easier with humans to find the actual reasons out. 
................

Response fuller of my views reacting to comments read here...

*NUMBERS OF DEATHS PER YEAR BY DOGS argument...1 per year lets say less than 10 then...*

per year is not many agreed caused by dogs... if using that to evaluate the cost and work to do controls that are likely to miss the one that does it next time...or justify the reason for publicity and outrage expressed...

no controls on tv licenses or car docs means more people taking risks...

more people die for sure as someone pointed out in car accidents...err excuse me but that is why controls exist ! lol !

the COST of DOG controls is going to cost DOG OWNERS of REASONABLE people more to own dogs, and miss those who avoid car docs tv licenses and dog licenses of course !

but back to the fact only one person per year gets killed by a dog but massive outcries...*people dont accept even one death from a dog....they accept better many more deaths from car accidents as part of life risks but demand that dogs a non essential tool to own be safer and a DEATH of a CHILD as is usually the case is the horror therefore that justifiably angers the public us everyone reasonable
we with dogs even not dog owners are thinkiing of this tragic event for sure and the owners of the breeds of the dogs that killed even more so of course....
dont know what to say except agree with any laws to try and control preventing this happen again and if fines can help pay for the costs of all these controls and people report known cases that are risks then uh oh owners of these breeds that did the attacks are going to be checked up on accused even if their dogs BARK at anyone for sure but SOME of the EXTREME bad owner cases will be reported as well so that is a price to pay to get at least SOME nutters away from owning dogs generally for sure.*

*MORE CONTROLS as suggested by some here even if some manage to escape them and EDUCATION about DIET, EXERCISE, EDUCATION, TRAINING of dogs like taking driving tests for cars are USEFUL to reduce the large number of bites other than death ending ones that occur that are not reported much or we would have a page a day in newspapers on it...*

*SUPERVISION OF DOGS AROUND OTHER PEOPLE especially kids...*

accepting that if we encourage OTHERS besides ourselves to leave children or even adults not owners of the dogs alone with our dogs whatever the breed, they can be at risk. the Kennel Club has advised a policy of generalisation saying children should be supervised around dogs.

*Looking for REASONS is part of our need to find them*...And *all reasons given could be contributory factors* and we are all guessing even with full facts known here of many many details as to WHAT THE REAL REASON OR REASONS were...and hey i say *ONLY THE DOGS knew that ! it is not about having MORE details known it is about THE DOGS CANT TALK *never talked and *we humans just make assumptions based on OUR knowledge and experiences without being able to say we know what goes on for sure in the minds of dogs generally *when things like that happen or these dogs ! if any of our beloved never been nasty dogs suddenly did something like this...we would all look for REASONS ! to say what set it off, but we would never know for sure.

*MORE CONTROLS *as suggested by some here even if some manage to escape them and *EDUCATION about DIET, EXERCISE, EDUCATION, TRAINING of dogs like taking driving tests for cars are USEFUL to reduce the large number of bites other than death ending ones that occur that are not reported much or we would have a page a day in newspapers on it...of DOGS and HUMANS !!! *

well that is a TALL ORDER hey ! and COSTLY ! and will miss out some ! *i hold my hand up and say thinking i am a reasonable dog owner of course of powerful jawed dogs that even reading trying to educate myself AS IS STILL NEEDED by ME there are so many theories and little time and mistakes are human made that it is not easy. I will NOT therefore BLAME OWNERS for all the dog bad behaviours always when the dogs could be just bonkers or disobedient suddenly even if trained but yes I hold the OWNER RESPONSIBLE and the OWNER should PAY for the consequences of that ! and laws are missing as people here excuse me those i dont quote i havent managed that techi thing yet well...laws are missing to PROSECUTE even THESE IRRESPONSIBLE OWNERS in this tragic case right now. *

.................................................ANOTHER THREAD but interesting to share here too...it is the same issue as being talked about here which here is more focused on the JADE tragedy but the other is general and relevant here...SMOKEY BEAR kicked off on a good post too there...mental probs...and i added some views i share relevant here not excusing the owners or the dogs but saying it could be a CONTRIBUTORY REASON the dogs like humans did harm to others...and the owners should pay of course...dogs dont have wallets...or minds like us...

*Re: Dangerous dogs or dangerous owners? *

the catchphrases i am thinking about...

there no dangerous dogs just dangerous owners

or there are no bad dogs just bad owners

occasionally if not proven the case adding instead of the word owners ...breeders...

well it sounds good, moves blame totally from the dog to the owner...or breeder...implies nothing else is in the caracter of the dog meaning willfullness or just nervy or agressive behaviour part of the dogs nature is to blame for anything the dog does that is by humans considered bad...

a DOG does not unless we can read its mind think like a human...we BEST GUESS its mental state from our interpreation of its behavoiur

and i suggest that even the CONCEPT OF DEATH is different to a DOG tha a HUMAN ! we do not know if a dog understands what DEATH is as we do or not ! i am thinking of how children take time to understand this death concept and many times i think of my dogs as children with minds of a child for say tings like not understanding the dangers of crossing the road...running off after a cat accross a road...things like that...

now the to me and most reasonable people reading the unfortunate failures of GREAT efforts made in education of a dog the um what was it...ouf...i am not good with names...some ah yes SHAR PEI dog...well nothing could be done the OWNER from just reading how she or he writes seems to me very balanced caring not off the wall in tone and logic used...not highly emotive...i am judging her or him yes or trying to ...to be able to say or think well from what i understand the owner did MORE than what certainly I with any of my dogs everthing was done to train this dog well...and nor does the breeder behaviour or selection of the dog pup sold seem the issue here...

so ? this case and a couple of other to me reasonable accounts of dogs just attacking for NO GOOD REASON a child held walking with its mother holding her hand....

oh and DO not use another catchphrase often used to EXCUSE or EXPLAIN dogs to us bad behaviour by saying...DOGS DONT ATTACK FOR NO REASON as if humans wild animals organisations start wars steal things or kill people for NO REASONS....every living thing has a REASON for doing it but that does not EXCUSE it in the MORAL JUDGEMENT system of humans !

so ....other than the possibility or EXCUSE for a dog of MENTAL ILLNESS which is a genetic thing but NOT a BREEDERS FAULT i dare to stress as it can be NATURAL ACCIDENT as it is in humans...unless anyone thinks dogs cant have mental problems...
so MENTAL ILLNESS is an unsaid additional reason i say to not accept the slogan of THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS ONLY BAD OWNERS !!! it is putting BLAME on the OWNERS where it is NOT the owners fault obviously if the dog is mental !!!

so...the FINAL option other than mental illness to dispute blaming owners or breeeders is that THE DOG IS BAD in our human judgement terms for behaviour that cannot be achieved in the dog by education or training !

the dog JUST DOES NOT RESPOND to training and KEEPS Doing the unacceptable BAD behaviour in human eyes due to its nature !

and of COURSE the DOG will have its REASONS for this BAD BEHAVIOUR but that does not excuse it in our human world !

strong willed may be a term to describe or classify such a dog in this last case maybe ??? TOO STRONG WILLED a dog ???? with resistance to training so great that it is unmanageable in our human acceptable behaviour expectations of it ?

Dog may just have personalities that are DIFFICULT and UNACCEPTABLE in our human world ?? not due to BAD TRAINING OF BAD OWNERS or BAD BREEDING OF BAD BREEDERS or MENTAL ?

because i suggest that there are 2 OTHER POSSIBILITIES to the generalisation that THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS JUST BAD OWNERS !!!

the OTHER POSSIBILITIES are MENTAL DOGS or just OVER WILLFUL DOGS ! that just will not in any reasonable way behave to our required expectations of them !

I dont know if a dog understands death ! if it knows at what point in its biting it is just harming or at the point of killing anything !

this to me is of interest as i cannot attribute HUMAN MORAL VALUES to the mind of a dog who does not understand DEATH as I do....does not understand GOOD AND BAD as i do ! and does not understand IMPULSE BEHAVIOUR is NEVER ACCEPTABLE in some behaviour to us humans who do not stop it walking around on its own will generally for much of the time but expect the dog to understand that NO TO GET THAT PIE YOU MAY NOT PLAYBITE OR USE YOUR TEETH to get at it ! to be able to know the dog will NEVER take such a DECISION we would have to be certain the dog had NEVER EVER USED ITS TEETH on a human ever ! and tested that many times to be even fairly confident !

and i am making a terrible assumption even in that statement myself ! that a dog is going to understand that even if starving hungry it must not do what its instinct or mind or reasoning of a dog tells it to do which is use its teeth to get what it wants ! and understand the damage even death it is causing to do so is wrong !

to know the mind of a dog who does not communicate in our language is not possible.

*EDUCATION for those that can get it...TRAINING...CONTROLS....and punishments as deterents hoped for. and accepting we cant explain a dogs mind or reasons very well even if we have some ideas and evidence from experiences ...we do not know what is in their minds. they are not the same species as us. they do not talk our language.*


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

That is a beast of a reply there FJ- and too much for my procrastinating eyes to read- i may as well be reading a journal paper 
(which is what i absolutely should be doing!)


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Nagini said:


> think a lot of people are missing the point - 5 bull breeds all kept within the same environment, together for christs sake , all highly reactive dogs when placed in an environment in which they live together , where were the crates , gates , safety measures to keep these dogs apart when the owner couldn't be present ? looks like both the mastiffs were males - theres a golden rule there , never keep dogs of that breed that are the same sex because you can expect to have fireworks , it's been well publicised that the one bull mastiff were an aggressive dog that was castrated in the hope he could be calmed down but when you've got 3-4 other bull breeds bouncing off the walls due to many factors , it was never destined to work really - those dogs didn't really have a chance because they were failed on so many levels by their owner which sadly leaves a family grieving for their daughter.
> this so easily could have been prevented , had the owner just had a clue about what she had in her home.


I think that many owners are just not aware of what they have in their home and base their decisions on "I want" rather than think through the practicalities and reality of owning one powerful dog, without other powerful dogs in a pack, all living in the confined space of the average home.

Dogs are in the main pretty domesticated, they fit in to our lifestyles and they do the right thing.
Sometimes it is down to good training and sometimes it just ends up that way.
The most useless person as regards training, can end up with a lovely "well trained" dog. 
I think there is an assumption by many, that they can train dogs, that the dog acts in a certain way, because they are so good at training it. 
I think that assumption leads to some amassing numerous dogs, because they are so "experienced" and so good at owning and training the dogs.

They forget that training is a two way street and that the dog has to give its permission to play along with the training game. 
Most dogs will happily trade their autonomy for attention, food and treats, most dogs play "the game" well and everyone is happy.

However a pack of dogs, will always be dynamic and less controllable, as opposed to a lone dog in a "human" pack. The constituents of the human pack are controllable, we can tell Dad Jamie to not shout at the dog, Auntie Kayleigh to stop giving the dog treats and little Sam to leave the dog alone and stop winding it up.

It needs good dog skills, to realise that Buster is being bullied big time by Bigboy, he is not fond of Fido, he feels jealous of Susie, and is about to snap mentally, as he is at the end of his tether. At a cursory glance, all are fine to the owner, as all wag their tails when it is food time, or they all have a good time down the park.
It needs an understanding of the dynamics of the pack to see, where it is going, how happy or unhappy its members truly are, and what indeed the pack itself may be capable of, if the boat is rocked.

The big problem with powerful dogs, is that when they snap or when they decide to go with a pack mentality down a bad route , their size and strength renders them invincible to the average dog owner (without a gun).
So whilst it cannot be said that the breed per se is at fault, what IS the big issue is that those big or muscular or strong dogs, cannot just be picked up and thrown out of the way by any human, if they do get out of control. 
With strong dogs, we have to rely on tapping into the dog's psyche to try and make them listen to us, but when their blood is up, then anyone is going to have a hard, if not impossible task, to get through to an excited, aggressive, scared, out-of-control dog.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I read somewhere the other day (sorry, can't remember where) that the white AmBull spent most of the time crated due to his aggression, this in itself would surely be enough to send a dog with temperament issues completely nuts?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> I read somewhere the other day (sorry, can't remember where) that the white AmBull spent most of the time crated due to his aggression, this in itself would surely be enough to send a dog with temperament issues completely nuts?


you know i am amazed things lasted as long as they did really with a male bullmastiff and male ambull in the home , both great dogs in the right hands , with the right knowledge , definitely not a mix of male dogs you'd willingly have living together. was all just an accident waiting to happen really.
what i can't understand for the life of me is , why were all those dogs loose if she knew and admitted there were problems with them.
it's all very sad , i really feel for jade and her parents.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

simplysardonic said:


> I read somewhere the other day (sorry, can't remember where) that the white AmBull spent most of the time crated due to his aggression, this in itself would surely be enough to send a dog with temperament issues completely nuts?


Jade Anderson's friends 'lived in fear' of killer dogs - Telegraph


> Chloe Dewett, 12, a friend of Jade's who lives near the house where the attack took place in Atherston, Greater Manchester, said: "If you walked down the alley next to the house, you walked on the far side, away from the fence, because they were always jumping up and barking.
> "The white one was vicious. I was told not to scream or shout whenever I went into the house.
> "I wouldn't go into the kitchen where it was kept. I knew the dogs were vicious but I didn't know they were capable of that. The white one was never allowed out of its cage."


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Nagini said:


> you know i am amazed things lasted as long as they did really with a male bullmastiff and male ambull in the home , both great dogs in the right hands , with the right knowledge , definitely not a mix of male dogs you'd willingly have living together. was all just an accident waiting to happen really.
> what i can't understand for the life of me is , why were all those dogs loose if she knew and admitted there were problems with them.
> it's all very sad , i really feel for jade and her parents.


Indeed.
All the more she wrote on her facebook that the Ambull wasn't good with dogs and bullied her male staff (but in a , 'what is he like!' kinda way not in a - i should get this behaviour sorted kinda way)


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Oh definitely some dogs are just born wired wrong. Attentive, observant breeders will even notice something not quite right about the dog as a pup.

Heck, back in the day dogs were culled for all sorts of reasons, not just being born the wrong color. Dogs with the wrong temperament for the job were simply shot. Nobody had time to deal with b-mod and management. 
We frown on culling now, but I don't know that the complete opposite attitude of save everything no matter what is all that helpful in the long run either.

And I agree that temperament issues most definitely have a genetic component. 

However...
Too often I see "wired wrong" or "temperament issues" used as an excuse for "I picked the wrong dog for me from the wrong breeder and now the dog has to pay with his life for my ignorant and rash decision."

So I see why people hesitate to put all the blame on genetics.

Our Lunar is a good example of what I'm trying to say...
Lunar was found as a feral dog who had been snacking on the local goats and sheep and deer in order to stay alive. When he was finally caught, he was 40 pounds underweight, had some weird respiratory/eye/nose infection thing going on, was heartworm positive, had been shot at least twice, had messed up skin on his elbows and chest suggesting he had at some point been confined to a hard surface, his teeth were broken and worn suggesting perhaps chained or enclosed where he was trying to escape. He was a mess...

The shelter behaviorist assessed him, he was nog only a food guarder, but he figured out quickly who the assess a hand was attached to and went straight for the source. He was deemed un-adoptable.

Today, Lunar is a perfectly safe, loving, gentle family pet who passed his therapy dog testing with flying colors. He has fabulous dog skills, he loves everyone he meets, and everyone who meets him adores him. He is really a super dog. 

Genetically, he is not "wired wrong" but he does have a typical guardian breed temperament where if you push him enough, he will push back, and thanks to poor handling, he also knows quite well that he's bigger and stronger and will win. I shudder to think what would have become of him with a "show 'em who's boss" type trainer. Lunar doesn't suffer fools gladly.
Yet put him in the right environment with the right handling, and he is a lamb.

Sometimes nature is nothing more than a seed that nurture either nurtures and grows or allows to remain dormant forever.

Sometimes nature is what is called "wired wrong" and you do end up with a dog who has something fundamentally wrong with their wiring and no amount of nurture will change that. I think the dogs who fall in to this last category are rare. They do exist, but not nearly as common as some would have you think. If you're having behavior issues with every other dog you raise, I think it's safe to say it's a nurture problem, not a nature one.


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## Skandi (May 4, 2012)

Devils advocate time. If you truely wanted to ban "dangerous" dogs then I think size would be the only "fair" way to pick which breeds to determine as dangerous, any dog could attack and do damage, but certain breeds, toy ones etc are going to find it much harder than other bigger animals to do serious harm.

Now to my own opinion. I don't honestly call that girl a child, she is a young adult at that age and quite possibly pretty much fully grown, I seriously doubt her age had anything to do with it and that an adult wouldn have faired anybetter, I have left my dog in my house with strangers (to her not to me) I wouldn't think twice about doing it, she's also been out on walks with complete strangers, it is in my opinion all down to the socialisation and training, and also the individual dogs temperment just like with humans.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

lauren001 said:


> Jade Anderson's friends 'lived in fear' of killer dogs - Telegraph


see , i don't really ''buy'' all these reports , people saying this , folks saying that.

if they knew the dogs were dangerous , why were no reports made?

Dog Attack: 'No Warnings' Before Jade Killed


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Skandi said:


> Devils advocate time. If you truely wanted to ban "dangerous" dogs then I think size would be the only "fair" way to pick which breeds to determine as dangerous, any dog could attack and do damage, but certain breeds,* toy ones etc are going to find it much harder than other bigger animals to do serious harm*.
> 
> Now to my own opinion. I don't honestly call that girl a child, she is a young adult at that age and quite possibly pretty much fully grown, I seriously doubt her age had anything to do with it and that an adult wouldn have faired anybetter, I have left my dog in my house with strangers (to her not to me) I wouldn't think twice about doing it, she's also been out on walks with complete strangers, it is in my opinion all down to the socialisation and training, and also the individual dogs temperment just like with humans.


Devil's advocate right back at ye ... any dog with teeth can kill a newborn


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Skandi said:


> Now to my own opinion. I don't honestly call that girl a child, she is a young adult at that age and quite possibly pretty much fully grown, I seriously doubt her age had anything to do with it and that an adult wouldn have faired anybetter, I have left my dog in my house with strangers (to her not to me) I wouldn't think twice about doing it, she's also been out on walks with complete strangers, it is in my opinion all down to the socialisation and training, and also the individual dogs temperment just like with humans.


she was a child , in the eyes of the law she was a child and someone elses baby. at 14 your still not capable of making ''grown up'' decisions.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Excellent post Lauren001.

Its not breed bashing to acknowledge that some breeds are not really suitable for ordinary family homes or novice hands if you like. My dog is friendly, placid and fairly well trained but I do not kid myself that I could successfully handle a dog that needed more specialised training or handling because of its specific breed traits. I would be equally useless at assessing pack dynamics as would the majority of people I know.

I think the general view is that blanket dog licencing would be fairly ineffective but would some sort of owner licencing work if you wanted to have a more demanding breed. In an ideal world breeders should be assessing owners to see if they are suitable but as there is no restriction on who can breed then we know it doesn't happen that way.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

The white one is only about 1 and a bit years old.

Theres' pictures of it on her facebook as a puppy in January 2012, why would you keep vicious dogs when you have children? Why would you keep these types of dogs with no mental/physical stimulation?

Clearly the owner had very little idea what she was doing, just so worrying that she's likely to get away with something she should be punished for. The dogs have paid the price for her poor ownership and she gets to walk away and start over again with a good chance she will get more dogs.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Nagini said:


> she was a child , in the eyes of the law she was a child and someone elses baby. at 14 your still not capable of making ''grown up'' decisions.


Completely agree, in my eyes my 2 oldest sons are still my babies, despite being strapping 6 footers aged 15 & 16 now, I still have the dogs secured away if they're in the house alone.

As for visiting children, not when I'm out & that's not just because of the dogs but the fact that they can barely be trusted to leave the small animals (rats, rabbits & cats) alone when I'm there, they're definitely not coming in when I'm not!


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Nagini said:


> see , i don't really ''buy'' all these reports , people saying this , folks saying that.
> 
> if they knew the dogs were dangerous , why were no reports made?
> 
> Dog Attack: 'No Warnings' Before Jade Killed


I agree, as a child and young adult I was also "scared" of some dogs too, and thinking back it was probably justified in that they barked and they did frighten me, but probably unjustified to think they would have actually harmed me.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

JULESKY THANK YOU ! i get lost in my own rambles ! lol !!!!

too much information...was i dare add when active in the human work world a comment made to me when sending out yes USEFUL INFORMATON but in OVERDOSE to those poor in those cases forced to read it all people that received the stuff !!!

lol !!!! here you can CHOOSE to read or not ! IMAGINE what a HORROR it would have been to be involved with me in WORK with such long communiquees hey !!!!

oh dear humour and laughter but laughing at myself i stress not lauging at anything about this tragedy the subject of this thread.ENJOY ! my RAMBLE ! an ORDER in USA STYLE !


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## bluesupero (Oct 3, 2012)

Skandi said:


> Devils advocate time. If you truely wanted to ban "dangerous" dogs then I think size would be the only "fair" way to pick which breeds to determine as dangerous, any dog could attack and do damage, but certain breeds, toy ones etc are going to find it much harder than other bigger animals to do serious harm.
> 
> Now to my own opinion. I don't honestly call that girl a child, she is a young adult at that age and quite possibly pretty much fully grown, I seriously doubt her age had anything to do with it and that an adult wouldn have faired anybetter, I have left my dog in my house with strangers (to her not to me) I wouldn't think twice about doing it, she's also been out on walks with complete strangers, it is in my opinion all down to the socialisation and training, and also the individual dogs temperment just like with humans.


I Don't know about the size thing?
My nephew had to have 2 skin grafts and was in hospital for a week after an attack by a Jack russell in the park when he was 3. He was in his buggy eating a lolly and the thing just flew in his face, but the real damage was to his leg. He is 16 now and lives with me and Reilly has helped him get over his mortal fear of dogs....


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I can see how these dog attacks happen when I hear what I heard this morning on the radio,they were discussing this latest attack and a woman phoned in she had 4 bull breeds (but would not really matter what breed)she was irate that people should even say they shouldn't be left with children and said her 17 month old child throws the dogs food when he is eating and she happily leaves them alone together as she 100% trusts her dogs,I really wonder if she is going to be the next dog owner we hear about having her child attacked,and yes afraid once again the media would be saying Staffordshire Bull Terriers.I personally think the owner of the latest attack should not be allowed to own any dogs as they were obviously kept confined with no exercise which would be enough to drive them stir crazy and now a young girl has paid with her life and also the dogs.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> The white one is only about 1 and a bit years old.
> 
> Theres' pictures of it on her facebook as a puppy in January 2012, why would you keep vicious dogs when you have children? Why would you keep these types of dogs with no mental/physical stimulation?
> 
> Clearly the owner had very little idea what she was doing, just so worrying that she's likely to get away with something she should be punished for. The dogs have paid the price for her poor ownership and she gets to walk away and start over again with a good chance she will get more dogs.


Many people just think a dog is a dog is a dog though don't they and just go for the look that appeals without any idea about specific traits. She probably had no idea it was a bad idea to have the two males - as it appears she was breeding dogs too she must have in season females which would make them even more hyped


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> I think the general view is that blanket dog licencing would be fairly ineffective but would some sort of owner licencing work if you wanted to have a more demanding breed. In an ideal world breeders should be assessing owners to see if they are suitable but as there is no restriction on who can breed then we know it doesn't happen that way.


i think it's time breed specific legislation was thrown out , it's a useless piece of legislation and in the past few years only one dog i think to my knowledge that killed someone , was a banned breed.
it's really time to start chasing the owners of these dogs , have them up on manslaughter charges , anything , something that see's them behind bars for a few years , you know if this started to happen i think you'd see people standing up and actually taking some notice.
as it stands this woman won't be punished , she should be , but won't just because the law at this present time does not cover attacks on private property , it really boils down to being a ''people'' problem and not a ''dog breed'' problem''


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> JULESKY THANK YOU ! i get lost in my own rambles ! lol !!!!
> 
> too much information...was i dare add when active in the human work world a comment made to me when sending out yes USEFUL INFORMATON but in OVERDOSE to those poor in those cases forced to read it all people that received the stuff !!!
> 
> ...


Hee, glad you didn't take offence- i find in general, unless you start a thread you can make more impact (more people reading) short, concise replies (not saying i always manage that, love a good rant myself!- must be the scientist in me that tries my best to be succinct!)


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

I am going to get flamed for this but oh well, on another forum (I can provide a link to those interested) there was a discussion that the American Bulldog doesn't look like one but actually looks more like another breed.....

The ladies dog.

























Dogo Argentino.

















American Bulldog

















I've picked "white"/mostly white Am bull pics.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

I don't know how you can be flamed for a 'suggestion'

But as long as people understand the term 'suggestion'

I am quite sure in a case as sever as this experts will decide what breed the dog is, not the internet jury.

BUT when a dog is bought off a part time BYB who doesn't really understand what a lineage is let alone a breed specific- it's anyone's guess really.

suggestion should be replaced with discussion ETA: brain is on holiday mode


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Sorry if I'm being dense, but what would it matter if the dog in question is an AmBull or Dogo?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

shetlandlover said:


> I am going to get flamed for this but oh well, on another forum (I can provide a link to those interested) there was a discussion that the American Bulldog doesn't look like one but actually looks more like another breed.....


the dog is an american bulldog , appears to be from the johnson line.

white johnson american bulldog - Google Search


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> It does. Can't see the media taking that on board though unfortunately. Do you have links to their comment? Can't find anything.


It was in the Independent.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

>>Originally Posted by Skandi 

Now to my own opinion. I don't honestly call that girl a child, she is a young adult at that age and quite possibly pretty much fully grown, I seriously doubt her age had anything to do with it and that an adult wouldn have faired anybetter, I have left my dog in my house with strangers (to her not to me) I wouldn't think twice about doing it, she's also been out on walks with complete strangers, it is in my opinion all down to the socialisation and training, and also the individual dogs temperment just like with humans.>>

what you have done with YOUR dog with strangers adults or kids not getting pedantic about age numbers is your choice and policy.

you are free to make that decision.

for sure many dogs left with people have never bitten them

but you do not go on to say if your policy is suitable for others...you just give as a possible reason not adding even the word POSSIBLE i note...that it is ALL down to the socialisation and training....

missing out of whom ? the dogs or owners ? or both ?

and then you add on...and also the individual dogs temperment just like with humans....

well ? what is the POLICY you advise then in this specific case?

let me try and follow your argument logically applying it to Jade...she should have known better ? ummm...her age had NOTHING to do with it ? ummmm...now as i understand it a 14 year old is not able to make decisions like even stay out at night after certain hours .... cannot buy alcohol...is considered not MATURE enough for that....and certainly not well read as some adults might be about CAREFUL WITH FOOD AROUND DOGS education...her age had NOTHING to do with it you say !

well i see quite a few ABSOLUTE statements here ! you are a very CONFIDENT of your views person indeed to make sweeping generalisations like this ! 

an adult would not have fared any better you say...well they have GREATER CHOICES available to them i suggest ! the neighbours of these people did not go near the dogs and were warned not to ! but NOT THIS GIRL hey ! who at HER AGE could not make better decision to not go near them !

it is ALL down to socialisation and training..you say...

without saying OF WHOM ??? the dogs ? the owners ? both ? or JADE ? now i like being SPECIFIC and try to be if i make a strong generalisation that is the ENTIRE REASON for anything !

i dont see that in your comment quoted. so i dismiss it unusually for me to do of a post as incorrect TOTALLY for SPECIFIC REASONS GIVEN HERE as i have written i have given to make my view on it. 

ps your statement...SHE IS A YOUNG ADULT AT THAT AGE....is i add TOTALLY INCORRECT under the definition of um i dont know the GB word for MAJORITAIRE meaning um!! ADULT LEGALLY !
yes let us get PEDANTIC about what the definition of a YOUNG ADULT is here...to do Jade justice...and satisfy my PEDANTIC needs...what is the age of a new legal term to me YOUNG ADULT ???? 14 ??? that was her age...

now provide me please with substantiating evidence under the law of that definition and age number 14 ???

I understand to provide MY understanding of the definiation of an ADULT under the LAW for buying alcohol greater than 14 ! correct me if i am wrong ! and to vote it is i believe 18 ?


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Sorry if I'm being dense, but what would it matter if the dog in question is an AmBull or Dogo?


If I remember correctly Dogo's are illegal in the UK.



Nagini said:


> the dog is an american bulldog , appears to be from the johnson line.
> 
> white johnson american bulldog - Google Search


See to me I don't see a close resemblance like I do with the Dogo. However it could just be because the dogs poorly bred.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> I think the general view is that blanket dog licencing would be fairly ineffective but would some sort of owner licencing work if you wanted to have a more demanding breed. In an ideal world breeders should be assessing owners to see if they are suitable but as there is no restriction on who can breed then we know it doesn't happen that way.


Dog licensing does NOTHING we have it in Northern Ireland and it serves no purpose what so ever and again the responsible owners get one, those that are responsible don't the ONLY time it is ever checked is if your dog does something wrong.

So we will still have BSL???? It doesn't work, most responsible breeder WILL NOT place dogs in home that are not suitable to own the breed.

Why should I have to pay for a license for wanting a Rottweiler or a GSD, when Joe Blogs down the road has a nasty dog that's not " a more demanding breed?"

Also please quantify what is considered a "more demanding breed"?

This should NOT be about breeds, it's been proven not to work ALL owners should be made to be responsible for their dogs not matter what the breed.

Because you can bet my Rott's and GSD's will be better mannered & better trained than most breeds that aren't "more demanding" because I'm a responsible owner.... It can NOT be be about breeds..


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

shetlandlover said:


> If I remember correctly Dogo's are illegal in the UK.
> 
> See to me I don't see a close resemblance like I do with the Dogo. However it could just be because the dogs poorly bred.


Like i said, in their efforts to pursue a conviction i'm preety sure high ranking experts would have been called in to decide on the breed of these dogs in this case.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

shetlandlover said:


> See to me I don't see a close resemblance like I do with the Dogo. However it could just be because the dogs poorly bred.


the dog simply could be a mish mash of certain lines , painter , hines , scott , johnson , all american bulldog strains , i see no resemblance whatsoever to a dogo , think folks are reading into things that just aren't there.
had the dog been an illegal breed , she'd have been charged for owning one , she hasn't.


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

SixStar said:


> Out of curiosity, what others breeds do you think should be banned?
> 
> If you live in the UK, you really don't  Unless, of course, it is doing it's agility training muzzled and on a lead.
> 
> An owner who likes to consider their Staffie cross as one maybe - but the vast majority of people (myself included) wouldn't know a true Pitbull if it bit them on the bum!


I live in England and the owner said its a pit bull from day one. She's not the type to think her crossbreed is a pure.

EDIT; He looks very much like this;

http://www.shortywood.com/pitfacts.htm

Also, I think there are certain ways you can own a banned breed. Like licenses.

I can pat him on the head fine.

Didn't want to start anything was just saying.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

<<ouesi quote comment...Oh definitely some dogs are just born wired wrong. >>

regarding suggestions some dogs have caractere problems that training or owners or breeders cannot be blamed for even if owners are legally responsible for the ACTS of those dogs...

good to see others have this view too ....

and i dont know but i think ouesi is one of those canine experts in training...dunno...but good to see no ABSOLUTISM view is given on the REASON for this attack by dogs is given....even if an ABSOLUTE view is given on the view some dogs are just born wired wrong. NOT SAYING ALL dogs but yes SOME

to not be ABSOLUTELY SURE of a view of dogs ! lol !! good one.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Sacremist said:


> It was in the Independent.


Thanks. I'll have a look.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> I am going to get flamed for this but oh well, on another forum (I can provide a link to those interested) there was a discussion that the American Bulldog doesn't look like one but actually looks more like another breed.....
> 
> The ladies dog.
> 
> ...


The dog in the top pic looks like a puppy. All legs, chest not dropped and the head hasn't cracked. The adult dogs at the bottom look like different types of Ambull, though hard to see squinting at my phone. Bottom one looks Johnson, the one above Scott's. different build and bite.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Kicksforkills said:


> I live in England and the owner said its a pit bull from day one. She's not the type to think her crossbreed is a pure.
> 
> EDIT; He looks very much like this;
> 
> ...


They owner may _say_ it's a Pitbull, but despite what the media will have you believe, there are very few true Pitbulls in this country. Lots of crosses, staffie mixes, pitbull ''types'' etc maybe, but not true American Pitbull Terriers.

Yes, they can be legally owned under some circumstances - which was why I asked if it is muzzled and on a lead whilst doing the agility? Because it is is a legally owned Pitbull, then it would have to be by law. 

The person who owns this dog, and claiming it to be a Pitbull, is a fool of the highest order, and runs a very high and very real risk of her dog being seized and destroyed without reason.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

What a terrifying looking dog! That poor girl would have had no chance with that dog alone, looking at the build of it, I'd guess a bodybuilder couldn't stop it. That is not a family pet, that's a dog bred for trouble, probably to make the owner look tough.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> What a terrifying looking dog! That poor girl would have had no chance with that dog alone, looking at the build of it, I'd guess a bodybuilder couldn't stop it. That is not a family pet, that's a dog bred for trouble, probably to make the owner look tough.


What dog are you looking at?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> What dog are you looking at?


Well none look like one I'd want to walk past, but the very top one. It's bloody terrifying!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Well none look like one I'd want to walk past, but the very top one. It's bloody terrifying!


It's a white Dog? How on earth can that be terrifying?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Well none look like one I'd want to walk past, but the very top one. It's bloody terrifying!


Are you being serious? You find that dog terrifying? 
Is it the size, the color, the expression? I don't get it? He looks like a dog to me...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Kicksforkills said:


> I live in England and the owner said its a pit bull from day one. She's not the type to think her crossbreed is a pure.
> 
> EDIT; He looks very much like this;
> 
> ...


If the owner states that it was a pitbull then she is asking to have her dog taken away. I don't think there is a dog licence of any description, but you can get an exemption to own a pitbull provided it is muzzled and on lead in public.

I doubt an agility class though would allow one, their insurance would be invalid if they did.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Are you being serious? You find that dog terrifying?
> Is it the size, the color, the expression? I don't get it? He looks like a dog to me...


Considering the 3rd picture is of a pup???


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> What a terrifying looking dog! That poor girl would have had no chance with that dog alone, looking at the build of it, I'd guess a bodybuilder couldn't stop it. That is not a family pet, that's a dog bred for trouble, probably to make the owner look tough.


there is nothing frightening about an american bulldog. 
it's ''some'' owners you need to be running for the hills from.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> If the owner states that it was a pitbull then she is asking to have her dog taken away. I don't think there is a dog licence of any description, but you can get an exemption to own a pitbull provided it is muzzled and on lead in public.
> 
> I doubt an agility class though would allow one, their insurance would be invalid if they did.


They also generally end up with a HUGE tattoo on their stomach that would be hard to miss.............


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

'Wobbles' might be a bit 'wobbly' and frighten easily or be worried about getting knocked over by a dog... might not be so bad if he/she were 'weebles'


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> What a terrifying looking dog! That poor girl would have had no chance with that dog alone, looking at the build of it, I'd guess a bodybuilder couldn't stop it. That is not a family pet, that's a dog bred for trouble, probably to make the owner look tough.


Now who is condemning a dog breed because of its looks? If you are referring to the white dog, I find it very unattractive, but I would no way say it is terrifying or even scary. How can you be afraid of a photograph of a dog?

With all due respect, you sound just like the numpties who passed the breed specific legislation in the first place - the dog looks scary so it must be dangerous.


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

He doesn't wear a muzzle and is off lead when it's his turn obviously. 

I'll ask the woman again next time I see her.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Serious question Wobbles, do you find this dog terrifying?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> That is not a family pet, that's a dog bred for trouble, probably to make the owner look tough.


See comments like this really scare me...............................

They ARE family pets and a lot of them make good family pets. The reason they don't is their owners...

Dog bred for trouble, I means seriously wtf??? Opp's there me being that tattoo'd criminal for having Rottweilers...

If "animal lovers" have though and reactions like this, god help dogs.....


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Are you being serious? You find that dog terrifying?
> Is it the size, the color, the expression? I don't get it? He looks like a dog to me...


It just looks very frightening and unapproachable. Not many dogs scare me but put it this way, if I was in the park and I saw it, I'd run as far away as possible - fast!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> It just looks very frightening and unapproachable. Not many dogs scare me but put it this way, if I was in the park and I saw it, I'd run as far away as possible - fast!


Really... I'm sure.... Well no harm to you, I think you need to go and get some education about behaving around dogs..................


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> It just looks very frightening and unapproachable. Not many dogs scare me but put it this way, if I was in the park and I saw it, I'd run as far away as possible - fast!


....which could possibly lead to a chase and bite incident.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> It just looks very frightening and unapproachable. Not many dogs scare me but put it this way, if I was in the park and I saw it, I'd run as far away as possible - fast!


If you run from any dog, it will chase you. That is because it thinks you want to play, so then you can tell everyone you were attacked by a pitbull. Surely you know that much about dogs?

If that is a pitbull, it is definitely the same breed as the one I saw loose in Cambridge a couple of weeks ago. I tried to catch him to see if he had an id tag, but he wasn't having any.

Bad enough people would risk having him taken away and pts for no good reason, without letting run loose even if he has escaped. He was quite a young dog as well.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> If I remember correctly Dogo's are illegal in the UK.
> 
> See to me I don't see a close resemblance like I do with the Dogo. However it could just be because the dogs poorly bred.


I'm no expert but I can certainly see the resmeblance to the Dogo more than the AmBull in those photos you posted. It's the shape of the head especially...


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> What a terrifying looking dog! That poor girl would have had no chance with that dog alone, looking at the build of it, I'd guess a bodybuilder couldn't stop it. That is not a family pet, that's a dog bred for trouble, probably to make the owner look tough.


If your scared of an Ambull puppy, don't come round to my house and meet my dogs. You'll probably have a heart attack.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> If your scared of an Ambull puppy, don't come round to my house and meet my dogs. You'll probably have a heart attack.


Indeed! I wonder what they'd think of my boy Blue :blushing:


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Coffee said:


> *I'm no expert* but I can certainly see the resmeblance to the Dogo more than the AmBull in those photos you posted. It's the shape of the head especially...


Precisely why the police never asked you in on the investigation 

or me or indeed any of us for that matter!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Serious question Wobbles, do you find this dog terrifying?


No, he looks nice and approachable. If I saw it out and about and it seemed friendly I would stop and pet/fuss it.

And I know running will make a dog chase, I meant if I was going in to the park at one gate, and saw that white dog in there, I would turn around and leave. There is no way I could stay in there with it. Not everyone likes every dog and ones like that frighten me, so seeing as the dog would sense that, I wouldn't hang around near by.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> It just looks very frightening and unapproachable. Not many dogs scare me but put it this way, if I was in the park and I saw it, I'd run as far away as possible - fast!


Why thank you very much- I'll let Kes the am bull x know how terrifying she is  Might I suggest RUNNING away from a dog is a very idiotic thing to do as well 

Unless of course you can outrun one :lol:


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Precisely why the police never asked you in on the investigation
> 
> or me or indeed any of us for that matter!


Worryingly, most police officers wouldn't know a Dogo from a Dalmatian.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Coffee said:


> I'm no expert but I can certainly see the resmeblance to the Dogo more than the AmBull in those photos you posted. It's the shape of the head especially...


Dogos have black noses. The dog in question doesn't. The Dogo posted is also a puppy like said owners Ambull so difficult to make a comparison between adolescent dogs and their breed standard. In any event, dogos are so rare here, there's only one on the exemption list, it's highly unlikely that a random dog owner would have one.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Coffee said:


> Worryingly, most police officers wouldn't know a Dogo from a Dalmatian.


Absolutely true- but this case is so severe and looking for a prosecution I am pretty certain they will have had to have sourced experts to confirm the dog's breeds.

Not googled pictures or asked dog owner opinion (and i'm not saying that's what you're saying)

A child died- every avenue will have been explored here, I do not doubt that


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Coffee said:


> Worryingly, most police officers wouldn't know a Dogo from a Dalmatian.


i'm sure they would.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Snoringbear said:


> Dogos have black noses. The dog in question doesn't. The Dogo posted is also a puppy like said owners Ambull so difficult to make a comparison between adolescent dogs and their breed standard. In any event, dogos are so rare here, there's only one on the exemption list, it's highly unlikely that a random dog owner would have one.


IIRC when the DDA came out there weren't even ANY dogo's in the country


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> No, he looks nice and approachable. If I saw it out and about and it seemed friendly I would stop and pet/fuss it.


What's the difference? One is black, one is white? Both have similar expressions, behaving similarly, I don't see how you can say one is terrifying and one is not unless you're basing it all on color/appearance. And you know what they say about not judging a book by it's cover and all that...

The reason I ask is try to understand how you come to these conclusions about dogs and their owners based on photos alone.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> No, he looks nice and approachable. If I saw it out and about and it seemed friendly I would stop and pet/fuss it.
> 
> And I know running will make a dog chase, I meant if I was going in to the park at one gate, and saw that white dog in there, I would turn around and leave. There is no way I could stay in there with it. Not everyone likes every dog and ones like that frighten me, so seeing as the dog would sense that, I wouldn't hang around near by.


There's being frighten of a dog and there's being frankly irrational.


Wobbles said:


> What a terrifying looking dog! That poor girl would have had no chance with that dog alone, looking at the build of it, I'd guess a bodybuilder couldn't stop it. That is not a family pet, that's a dog bred for trouble, probably to make the owner look tough.


Why would you make stupid sweeping statements like this? 
What wouldn't a bodybuilder stop? Why is it not a family pet? Why do you think the owner got it to make them look tough?

It's ok to be frightened of a dog but it's really not ok to make judgement like this, which is what BSL is all about... It really does anger me when people say really ill though out sweeping comments................


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Nagini said:


> i'm sure they would.


I'll ask one now.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> IIRC when the DDA came out there weren't even ANY dogo's in the country


Correct. There were none, or filas either. There was one tosa which is mentioned in the hansard documents for the discussions in parliament leading to the DDA.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Snoringbear said:


> Correct. There were none, or filas either. There was one tosa which is mentioned in the hansard documents for the discussions in parliament leading to the DDA.


Having never met or seen a tosa I have to conclude that that one must have posed a SIGNIFICANT risk to the general public if they included it just to ban one individual :lol:

Honestly - the law is an ass


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Snoringbear said:


> I'll ask one now.


i can understand dogo's being confused with other breeds , but a dally - no way the breed has got to be one of the most instantly recognizable breeds of all time.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Julesky said:


> Absolutely true- but this case is so severe and looking for a prosecution *I am pretty certain they will have had to have sourced experts to confirm the dog's breeds.*
> 
> Not googled pictures or asked dog owner opinion (and i'm not saying that's what you're saying)
> 
> A child died- every avenue will have been explored here, I do not doubt that


I really hope you're right there.

Just wondering... *if* by any slim chance any of the 4 dogs did turn out to be illegal breeds would the owner then be able to be prosecuted? But proecuted for what exactly? Just for owning the dog(s)?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Coffee said:


> I really hope you're right there.
> 
> Just wondering... *if* by any slim chance any of the 4 dogs did turn out to be illegal breeds would the owner then be able to be prosecuted? But proecuted for what exactly? Just for owning the dog(s)?


she'd have been charged with owning an illegal breed under the DDA. just like this fella last year.
http://www.thisisgrimsby.co.uk/VIDE...tory-17222946-detail/story.html#axzz2OwYVxclv


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Nagini said:


> i can understand dogo's being confused with other breeds , but a dally - no way the breed has got to be one of the most instantly recognizable breeds of all time.


:lol:

I was being sarcastic when I said Dalmatian... just because of being breeds beginning with a 'D' 

I shall re-phrase. Looking at those photos that were posted a few pages back I would say that the _average_ PC would have trouble telling a Dogo and an Ambull apart.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> What's the difference? One is black, one is white? Both have similar expressions, behaving similarly, I don't see how you can say one is terrifying and one is not unless you're basing it all on color/appearance. And you know what they say about not judging a book by it's cover and all that...
> 
> The reason I ask is try to understand how you come to these conclusions about dogs and their owners based on photos alone.


Look, I can understand that this being a dog forum people think everybody loves every dog, but what about those who simply are terrified of certain breeds? Why is it so offensive that someone can be so scared of certain dogs? I'm terrified of snakes too but I'm sure the reptile owners wouldn't be annoyed. If I'm afraid of something I'm hardly going to want to be near it am I? And if I'm afraid of something based on its appearance, like bugs say, surely its not difficult to see why anything that resembled it would also frighten me?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Coffee said:


> :lol:
> 
> I was being sarcastic when I said Dalmatian... just because of being breeds beginning with a 'D'
> 
> I shall re-phrase. Looking at those photos that were posted a few pages back I would say that the _average_ PC would have trouble telling a Dogo and an Ambull apart.


i think anyone that were savvy with am bulls would easily be able to tell them apart.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Nagini said:


> i can understand dogo's being confused with other breeds , but a dally - no way the breed has got to be one of the most instantly recognizable breeds of all time.


Given the popularity of dalmatians in both life and film I'd find it quite amazing if anyone couldn't identify one unless they've been living in a cave


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Coffee said:


> :lol:
> 
> I was being sarcastic when I said Dalmatian... just because of being breeds beginning with a 'D'
> 
> I shall re-phrase. Looking at those photos that were posted a few pages back I would say that the _average_ PC would have trouble telling a Dogo and an Ambull apart.


Yes, I mean, a Dalmatian is very easy to spot!  sorry!

I think the vast majority of committed dog enthusiasts would struggle to tell a Dogo and an American Bulldog apart - some look incredibly similar - so I would say the average policeman has no chance. My son (a PC) certainly wouldn't be able to, and he is very much into dogs.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Look, I can understand that this being a dog forum people think everybody loves every dog, but what about those who simply are terrified of certain breeds? Why is it so offensive that someone can be so scared of certain dogs? I'm terrified of snakes too but I'm sure the reptile owners wouldn't be annoyed. If I'm afraid of something I'm hardly going to want to be near it am I? And if I'm afraid of something based on its appearance, like bugs say, surely its not difficult to see why anything that resembled it would also frighten me?





Meezey said:


> There's being frighten of a dog and there's being frankly irrational.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just to quote myself again.....


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I don't believe the dog that killed the little girl is a Dogo, however I'm guilty of it crossing my mind that it did look very much like one, though I find the Dogos more appealing looking. It's not outside the realms of possibility that someone, somewhere is breeding dogs of that 'type' like is done with pit bull types. If this is the case, at least this woman would face prosecution, as it now increasingly looks like she won't. I can't imagine how Jade's family must feel about the fact that this may never happen 

I do find this particular dog just looks somehow 'wrong' but it's possibly more to do with knowing he killed a child coupled with the derelict looking background of the picture. Everything about the dog's background has set him up to fail 

And finally Wobbles, please, if you're just going to make sweeping generalisations about status dogs & the reason some people own them, just remember that the only dog attack victim I've ever seen was bitten by a border collie, the same breed you own.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Look, I can understand that this being a dog forum people think everybody loves every dog, but what about those who simply are terrified of certain breeds? Why is it so offensive that someone can be so scared of certain dogs? I'm terrified of snakes too but I'm sure the reptile owners wouldn't be annoyed. If I'm afraid of something I'm hardly going to want to be near it am I?


I am actually very understanding of people who are terrified of dogs. If you'll notice, my posts have been completely neutral question asking, not accusatory or judgmental. I really am trying to understand - which, FWIW, it hard to do when you don't really answer the question and just get defensive instead.

I don't mean to speak for others, but I don't think the issue is you being scared of dogs, or a dog. 
It's saying things like that the girl stood no chance alone with a dog like that (based on looks), that a dog like that is not a family pet, that a dog like that is bred for trouble, that anyone who owns a dog like that is just trying to look tough.

Just as you don't want to be judged for being scared of a dog, it stands to reason that people who responsibly own dogs who terrify you don't want to be judged either.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> Look, I can understand that this being a dog forum people think everybody loves every dog, but what about those who simply are terrified of certain breeds? Why is it so offensive that someone can be so scared of certain dogs? *I'm terrified of snakes too but I'm sure the reptile owners wouldn't be annoyed.* If I'm afraid of something I'm hardly going to want to be near it am I? And if I'm afraid of something based on its appearance, like bugs say, surely its not difficult to see why anything that resembled it would also frighten me?


That's because you don't go in the reptile forum every few days telling everyone 'I hate snakes, snakes are scary, people only own snakes to make them look hard'......


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Look, I can understand that this being a dog forum people think everybody loves every dog, but what about those who simply are terrified of certain breeds? Why is it so offensive that someone can be so scared of certain dogs? I'm terrified of snakes too but I'm sure the reptile owners wouldn't be annoyed. If I'm afraid of something I'm hardly going to want to be near it am I? And if I'm afraid of something based on its appearance, like bugs say, surely its not difficult to see why anything that resembled it would also frighten me?


Be afraid all you like- but because you are afraid of something doesn't mean it should be banned.

I'm not offended by your fear. I could be offended by your ignorance that is expressed as an attitude based on your fear.

But I don't care enough for your opinion to be offended.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> Having never met or seen a tosa I have to conclude that that one must have posed a SIGNIFICANT risk to the general public if they included it just to ban one individual :lol:
> 
> Honestly - the law is an ass


Pitbulls and tosas were banned originally, dogos and filas were added later. I
think breeds that had no population here were added out of easy political correctness.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> I'm terrified of snakes too but I'm sure the reptile owners wouldn't be annoyed. If I'm afraid of something I'm hardly going to want to be near it am I?


actually i do get annoyed , as most people that state this have probably never been near one , or anything remotely dangerous


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Snoringbear said:


> Pitbulls and tosas were banned originally, dogos and filas were added later. I
> think breeds that had no population here were added out of easy political correctness.


Ill thought out knee jerk reaction...

Only good for toilet paper IMHO.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> IIRC when the DDA came out there weren't even ANY dogo's in the country


And only one Tosa Inu. They are the only one of the DDA breeds which I find slightly appealing and that is more because of their size than anything else.



Wobbles said:


> Look, I can understand that this being a dog forum people think everybody loves every dog, but what about those who simply are terrified of certain breeds? Why is it so offensive that someone can be so scared of certain dogs? I'm terrified of snakes too but I'm sure the reptile owners wouldn't be annoyed. If I'm afraid of something I'm hardly going to want to be near it am I? And if I'm afraid of something based on its appearance, like bugs say, surely its not difficult to see why anything that resembled it would also frighten me?


But snakes are a different species, aren't they? I don't know how you can be terrified of the white dog but find the black one friendly looking, when they are the same breed.



simplysardonic said:


> I don't believe the dog that killed the little girl is a Dogo, however I'm guilty of it crossing my mind that it did look very much like one, though I find the Dogos more appealing looking. It's not outside the realms of possibility that someone, somewhere is breeding dogs of that 'type' like is done with pit bull types. If this is the case, at least this woman would face prosecution, as it now increasingly looks like she won't. I can't imagine how Jade's family must feel about the fact that this may never happen
> 
> I do find this particular dog just looks somehow 'wrong' but it's possibly more to do with knowing he killed a child coupled with the derelict looking background of the picture. Everything about the dog's background has set him up to fail
> 
> And finally Wobbles, please, if you're just going to make sweeping generalisations about status dogs & the reason some people own them, just remember that the only dog attack victim I've ever seen was bitten by a border collie, the same breed you own.


The only dog who has ever bitten me was a westie, right in the face, and it turned out later than poor little fella had an ear infection. As said, there is always a reason.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> I don't believe the dog that killed the little girl is a Dogo, however I'm guilty of it crossing my mind that it did look very much like one, though I find the Dogos more appealing looking. It's not outside the realms of possibility that someone, somewhere is breeding dogs of that 'type' like is done with pit bull types. If this is the case, at least this woman would face prosecution, as it now increasingly looks like she won't. I can't imagine how Jade's family must feel about the fact that this may never happen
> 
> I do find this particular dog just looks somehow 'wrong' but it's possibly more to do with knowing he killed a child coupled with the derelict looking background of the picture. Everything about the dog's background has set him up to fail
> 
> And finally Wobbles, please, if you're just going to make sweeping generalisations about status dogs & the reason some people own them, just remember that the only dog attack victim I've ever seen was bitten by a border collie, the same breed you own.


I worked in a Unit with 100's of Military Dogs ( Mali's, Rotts, GSD's, Labs, Spaniels etc) , and the only dog that ever bit me was a Border Collie and it was a sniffer dog.. Well I did take a bit of straw out of it's mouth


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> Look, I can understand that this being a dog forum people think everybody loves every dog, but what about those who simply are terrified of certain breeds? Why is it so offensive that someone can be so scared of certain dogs? I'm terrified of snakes too but I'm sure the reptile owners wouldn't be annoyed. If I'm afraid of something I'm hardly going to want to be near it am I? And if I'm afraid of something based on its appearance, like bugs say, surely its not difficult to see why anything that resembled it would also frighten me?


If your scared of things however irrational that's fine. I'm terrified of heights. Tried rock climbing and ended up a shaking blubbering wreck after climbing ten feet. While you might be scared of dogs who look a certain way, you really shouldn't make stereotypical generalisations like the one you made below.

"That is not a family pet, that's a dog bred for trouble, probably to make the owner look tough."


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> KC
> We wonder how many more tragedies must take place before the government admits that the breed specific legislation in the Dangerous Dogs Act is fatally flawed, wasting limited police resources on seizing dogs of a particular breed, rather than focusing on dogs of any breed that are out of control. Recent incidents have involved many different breeds, showing that any dog can be dangerous in the wrong hands.


Is this not the crux of the matter?

It is a ludicrous law. 
It is just as ludicrous as saying "you with the squint teeth, the shifty look and the big muscles look like a murderer" and "you with the blue eyes, blond hair, athletic build and general good looks, look like you are a nice person". 
We will jail one and marry the other.
OR 
People with scummy fathers and mothers need locking up, and those who have "proper" parents are squeaky clean... it may follow in some cases, but no-one should or could put any money on it. 
Why this became law for dogs, I have no idea.

As for taking nice pets away from their loving owners because they look "bad" is totally nonsensical, tragic and unnecessary. What good does that do?

What is needed is education re dogs, re what they are capable of, what owners are capable of looking after, and more education as to what sort of dog is suitable for the household it finds itself in.
Too many fall in love with the looks of *"the dog" *or the kudos of owning *"the dog"* and don't know enough about what *"the dog"* is really about.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't know how you can be terrified of the white dog but find the black one friendly looking, when they are the same breed.


Just to clarify, the black dog isn't an AmBull or a Dogo D), he's a side-of-the-road-special, a mutt. He's actually bigger (taller) than an AmBull, but not quite as wide.
I was just trying to find a picture of a similar looking dog in a similar stance but that was a different breed to see if it's a breed issue, a color issue, a behavior issue or what.

This dog does scare people unintentionally just because of his "look". He is a big, black, muscular dog, and he can look rather intense.









I try to be understanding, I make sure I give people who are clearly afraid a wide berth, I make sure he is always under control, and we also put a lot of work in together to educate. This dog is the one who often goes to schools and helps educate kids about dogs.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Meezey said:


> It's a white Dog? How on earth can that be terrifying?


OI OI OI !!!! NOW WHO IS BEING RACIST NOW LOL ???? suggesting by that statement of GENERALISATION that WHITE DOGS dont make people afraid like ? BLACK DOGS !!! ???

like...MY BLACK DOGS ???? !!!! LOL !!!

i loved catching this comment ! because ? yes there ARE perceptions out there as to what looks FEARFUL ! and having myself BIG BLACK DOGS i can say CHILDREN in particular have a more FEARFUL reaction to them on the whole...

now i dont yell at kids saying you IDIOTS for that fear i do try and let them stroke my black dogs but sometimes they are just too fearful and it cant be done...i try...but i regret it for my dogs and the kids of course

ooh lala meazy...caught you on this one ..am so pleased i admit not annoyed i enjoy humour that i am off out with my FEARFUL HUGE BIG JAWED BLACK DOGS ! this cheered me up a bit in this still on my and others mind depressing accident waiting to happen. not feeling as bad of course as Jade familly of course who must be going through all kinds of accusations and pain in their minds even more so.

ps part of the FEAR factor of another variety of my breed used as deterents like some dogs are by police etc the MALINOIS has in fact a BIG BLACK MASK on its face that yes does help create more fear in people. BLACK IS more fearful i agree but still an unpleasant for BLACK DOGS judgement...and i dont mind accepting that and hope kids grow up out of their natural yes fear of that colour generally but especially in dogs

ppss i dont know why i like black dogs myself i add...i like i think the contrast on snow sun and green grass and like black dresses...maybe i am a depressive hey ! i didnt get black because they are more fearful looking dogs i also add to other people


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

I think Meezey meant it's a white dog, not it's a WHITE dog. Much like you would say a short haired dogs or fluffy dog or big dog or small dog. Not as a judgement but as a descriptor.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I think Meezey meant it's a white dog, not it's a WHITE dog. Much like you would say a short haired dogs or fluffy dog or big dog or small dog. Not as a judgement but as a descriptor.


yep I did


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> OI OI OI !!!! NOW WHO IS BEING RACIST NOW LOL ???? suggesting by that statement of GENERALISATION that WHITE DOGS dont make people afraid like ? BLACK DOGS !!! ???
> 
> like...MY BLACK DOGS ???? !!!! LOL !!!
> 
> ...


Strange, little children think my huge black dogs are there for them to cuddle, like teddy bears.

The fact that the dog in the picture is white has nothing to do with it; it was a case of it is just an ordinary white dog, why be scared?


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

I thought Feja was making a joke of it.......? Seems to be lots of taking what appears to be humour literally on this thread....or maybe I'm misreading


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

myshkin said:


> I thought Feja was making a joke of it.......? Seems to be lots of taking what appears to be humour literally on this thread....or maybe I'm misreading


Yes, I took her words as a joke too. Another example of misreading, I think, different perceptions colouring actual meanings.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Nagini said:


> there is nothing frightening about an american bulldog.
> it's ''some'' owners you need to be running for the hills from.


Very probably true, I have no idea as never met one in the flesh, don't know anyone who owns one its semi rural where I live and you don't really see anything other than run of the mill popular breeds (mine is probably the most unusual dog you would come across around here).

But if you happen to live in an area where there were a lot - surely your comment is exactly the issue for anyone who simply finds the look intimidating (dogs generally not specifically American Bulldogs) you have no idea what type of numpty is at the other end of the lead


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> If your scared of things however irrational that's fine. I'm terrified of heights. Tried rock climbing and ended up a shaking blubbering wreck after climbing ten feet. While you might be scared of dogs who look a certain way, you really shouldn't make stereotypical generalisations like the one you made below.
> 
> "That is not a family pet, that's a dog bred for trouble, probably to make the owner look tough."


Isn't that what a status dog is though? A dog bred to look and act a certain way to make the idiot owner look a real hard case? Not bred to be an amenable pet, because that's not what that type of owner wants. And certain breeds do look more aggressive/intimidating than others, which is specifically what the owner wants. I've never seen a tough yob with a poodle.



ouesi said:


> Just to clarify, the black dog isn't an AmBull or a Dogo D), he's a side-of-the-road-special, a mutt. He's actually bigger (taller) than an AmBull, but not quite as wide.
> I was just trying to find a picture of a similar looking dog in a similar stance but that was a different breed to see if it's a breed issue, a color issue, a behavior issue or what.
> 
> This dog does scare people unintentionally just because of his "look". He is a big, black, muscular dog, and he can look rather intense.
> ...


It's not the colour or size of the white dog, its the type, which is why the black dog wouldn't bother me. Neither would the one in the above pic. Colour and size of any dog does not bother me, but I honestly admit apart from a genuine bulldog, all the bull breeds frighten me, SBT's being at the very top of the list. Sorry if that upsets anyone here, but I really am scared of them. I've been out with my dog up in the woods, on the way home I saw someone with a SBT (not a nice one either). Luckily my Dad was with me, otherwise hand on heart I would have turned around and gone right the way around the wood, there is no way I could have gone past that dog.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

My aunty won't enter the house to visit my mum or Nan because she is scared of the bichon frise in residence. Maybe we should ban bichons because they're clearly terrifying monsters not family pets! Seriously I have no problem with anyone being scared of anything, but that's no excuse to make prejudice judgements about others who like them or to vilify them or try to get them banned.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Isn't that what a status dog is though? A dog bred to look and act a certain way to make the idiot owner look a real hard case? Not bred to be an amenable pet, because that's not what that type of owner wants. And certain breeds do look more aggressive/intimidating than others, which is specifically what the owner wants. I've never seen a tough yob with a poodle.
> 
> It's not the colour or size of the white dog, its the type, which is why the black dog wouldn't bother me. Neither would the one in the above pic. Colour and size of any dog does not bother me, but I honestly admit apart from a genuine bulldog, all the bull breeds frighten me, SBT's being at the very top of the list. Sorry if that upsets anyone here, but I really am scared of them. I've been out with my dog up in the woods, on the way home I saw someone with a SBT (not a nice one either). Luckily my Dad was with me, otherwise hand on heart I would have turned around and gone right the way around the wood, there is no way I could have gone past that dog.


I don't think you have the faintest idea what you're talking about - most of these breeds you are ignorantly slandering were bred to be amazing companions and to be extremely tolerant and loving towards humans - morseso than many other breeds - it has nothing to do with 'being hard' - however I think you'll find those dogs with high thresholds for pain like bullies make great family pets because of that trait - whereas a dog who is more easily annoyed or less tolerant is not your ideal family pet - Or indeed if you actually knew the history of many of these breeds which you obviously do not in the slightest you might realise how wrong you are - Bulldogs and others like it have saved countless human lives - are excellent protectors against cattle and angry livestock etc and for this purpose they are brilliant

In essence - you're talking out of your ass


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Colette said:


> My aunty won't enter the house to visit my mum or Nan because she is scared of the bichon frise in residence. Maybe we should ban bichons because they're clearly terrifying monsters not family pets! Seriously I have no problem with anyone being scared of anything, but that's no excuse to make prejudice judgements about others who like them or to vilify them or try to get them banned.


Indeed - I don't have an issue with someone thinking my Kes looks a bit scary but making comments about how she couldn't possibly be a family pet and saying I have her 'to look hard' is not just offensive but it's quite frankly idiotic and shows a distinct lack of knowledge


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Isn't that what a status dog is though? A dog bred to look and act a certain way to make the idiot owner look a real hard case? Not bred to be an amenable pet, because that's not what that type of owner wants. And certain breeds do look more aggressive/intimidating than others, which is specifically what the owner wants. I've never seen a tough yob with a poodle.


Your logic is convoluted at best.
I know a huge number of bull breed owners and not a one went out looking for a dog bred to act mean and look mean. They just happen to like bull breeds.
Do you also think that everyone with a tattoo has spent time in jail or got drunk to do it?



Wobbles said:


> It's not the colour or size of the white dog, its the type, which is why the black dog wouldn't bother me. Neither would the one in the above pic. Colour and size of any dog does not bother me, but I honestly admit apart from a genuine bulldog, all the bull breeds frighten me, SBT's being at the very top of the list. Sorry if that upsets anyone here, but I really am scared of them. I've been out with my dog up in the woods, on the way home I saw someone with a SBT (not a nice one either). Luckily my Dad was with me, otherwise hand on heart I would have turned around and gone right the way around the wood, there is no way I could have gone past that dog.


LOL. We did a pet DNA test on that dog and he's mostly boxer - a BULL breed.

I get being scared of a look, but why the need to add in hateful comments like that these dogs aren't fit to be family pets. You know I could make a pretty convincing argument that collies aren't meant to be family pets, they're meant to be out in a field herding sheep.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)




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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I actually had a similar discussion with a colleague about rottweilers. He's a tall, well built black guy and I'm an average white girl. He could walk down the street with a kitten on a lead and nobody would mess with him. I'd be lucky to look hard if I went out with a lion! Yet we both love the same breed, not because they look scary (neither of us think they do) but because of their amazing, loyal, affectionate, temperaments, the fact they can walk all day and do great in any training sphere, yet are low maintenance for grooming etc. But of course, we obviously want them as a penis extension so shouldn't be allowed them just to pacify Sun readers!? 

Permission to say 'whatever!'


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Isn't that what a status dog is though? A dog bred to look and act a certain way to make the i*diot owner* look* a real hard case*? Not bred to be an amenable pet, because that's not what that type of owner wants. And certain breeds do look more aggressive/intimidating than others, which is *specifically what the owner* wants. I've never seen a *tough yob* with a poodle.


Seriously it not often I get annoyed with people on forums but OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are SERIOUSLY missing the point aren't you just to make it clear to you, that it's NOT about the breed I'll highlight the areas in your post where the problem really lies and it's not with the f'in breed of the DOG!

And you know what Wobbles Standard Poodles were used as Guard Dogs...

Again you may be scared of the "type" but don't tar them all with the same brush.

I have Rottweilers do you think I got them to look hard and as a status symbol??????

Also Wobble define what you think is aggressive? Rottweilers supposedly "look" aggressive but guess what they are breed NOT to be aggressive!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

If you could all see the number of grannies around my way with staffies, you would be amazed. I am sure they didn't want them to look hard, more that one of them practically runs the local staffie rescue and has persuaded all her friends to foster or adopt them.

I see lots of staffies and other bull breeds in my travels and I know of only one who is not nice, and he is owned by a woman who also has a yellow lab that is totally out of control. I think that just about says it all really.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Perhaps Wobbles isn't old enough to know who this is but well - pretty tough guy


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

This is my status dog


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Your logic is convoluted at best.
> I know a huge number of bull breed owners and not a one went out looking for a dog bred to act mean and look mean. They just happen to like bull breeds.
> Do you also think that everyone with a tattoo has spent time in jail or got drunk to do it?
> 
> ...


You might not, but a lot do. How many people would be comfortable walking past a gang of youths with a bull terrier type dog on the end of a chain? I wonder why these youths haven't got a poodle on the end of a flexi? Could it because it wouldn't give the image they want?

I didn't say these dogs, i said that dog,meaning the one in the picture, the owner's dog. I wouldn't say a dog that tore a 14 yr old to pieces was fit to be a family pet at all.

And yes I know collies aren't meant to be family pets, I actually agree with you. The difference is, I don't get angry if someone says they don't like/are afraid of collies, I accept some just don't like them.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> You might not, but a lot do. How many people would be comfortable walking past a gang of youths with a bull terrier type dog on the end of a chain? I wonder why these youths haven't got a poodle on the end of a flexi? Could it because it wouldn't give the image they want?
> 
> I meant that white dog which belonged to the owner. I wouldn't say a dog that tore a 14 yr old to pieces was fit to be a family pet at all.
> 
> And yes I know collies aren't meant to be family pets, I actually agree with you. The difference is, I don't get angry if someone says they don't like/are afraid of collies, I accept some just don't like them.


What part of it's the OWNER not the breed don't you understand?

Again your missing the point it's not your fear that people are taking issue with it's the comments you make..............

You can't blame the breed, it's the OWNERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Personally Wobbles i think you're a wind -up merchant not worthy of response- or a child who doesn't know any better and doesn't want to know any other way.

The irony of one of your posts on another person's wall saying how' small minded the forum is and how people never want to see another point of view'
is absolutely not lost on me. You are either a simpleton or a troll to not see that irony either

Either way this is my last direct reply to you- I have no more troll feed left in the bag.

fare thee well!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I get being scared of a look, but why the need to add in hateful comments like that these dogs aren't fit to be family pets. You know I could make a pretty convincing argument that collies aren't meant to be family pets, they're meant to be out in a field herding sheep.


I don't know what the situation is on your side of the Atlantic ouesi, but there are definitely a lot of BCs & their crosses in rescue here, the internet ad pages are also full of them, people get them as cute fluffy puppies then realise as they mature they need to have something to do, be it herding, agility, whatever, not just sat at home & maybe getting a 10 minute walk here & there


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> Yes, I took her words as a joke too. Another example of misreading, I think, different perceptions *colouring* actual meanings.


Ooh, I like what you did there! 



ouesi said:


> .
> 
> I get being scared of a look, but why the need to add in hateful comments like that these dogs aren't fit to be family pets. *You know I could make a pretty convincing argument that collies aren't meant to be family pets, they're meant to be out in a field herding sheep*.


Arguably one of the most difficult breeds to keep as a pet!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> You might not, but a lot do.


um and I really hope this wasn't directed at the tattoo's bit in Ouesi


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Isn't that what a status dog is though? A dog bred to look and act a certain way to make the idiot owner look a real hard case? Not bred to be an amenable pet, because that's not what that type of owner wants. And certain breeds do look more aggressive/intimidating than others, which is specifically what the owner wants.


think that's insulting , really.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Ok I am saying nothing more...

If Wobble's thoughts are indicative of what a so called " dog lover" thinks, then god f'ing help dogs.

I really don't know if I should laugh at it all, or cry for future of dogs... because either way it's bloody scary......................


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Before everyone gangs up on Wobbles and it ends up in the usual ban for anyone who does not adore bull breeds, why not find out what formed the perception he/she has? We don't know where they live it could be a valid view from their own experience or it could be based on the media we don't know.

Personally I don't have a view unless I know a particular breed, the only bull breeds I have met are Staffies and I am neutral - simply because half I know are adorable the other half are a serious threat to other dogs


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

You won't see a yob with a poodle? Give it time! One of the many dog books I read some years back got the stats from a vet surgery in a US state that banned pit bulls. As pit bull registrations dropped registrations of rotties and other 'macho' breeds increased. If you ban one scary breed the yobs will just move onto the next. It used to be German shepherds and dobermanns, then pits, now it includes various mastiffs, akitas, even ridgebacks that have a bad rap. Ban them and the idiots will pick a new breed. Will you care when they get to collies and poodles???


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Colette said:


> You won't see a yob with a poodle? Give it time! One of the many dog books I read some years back got the stats from a vet surgery in a US state that banned pit bulls. As pit bull registrations dropped registrations of rotties and other 'macho' breeds increased. If you ban one scary breed the yobs will just move onto the next. It used to be German shepherds and dobermanns, then pits, now it includes various mastiffs, akitas, even ridgebacks that have a bad rap. Ban them and the idiots will pick a new breed. Will you care when they get to collies and poodles???


Nevermind recent history - back in the day Newfies would kill children quite regularly  Nothing to do with breed - but bad owners have existed throughout history


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> Before everyone gangs up on Wobbles and it ends up in the usual ban for anyone who does not adore bull breeds, why not find out what formed the perception he/she has? We don't know where they live it could be a valid view from their own experience or it could be based on the media we don't know.
> 
> Personally I don't have a view unless I know a particular breed, the only bull breeds I have met are Staffies and I am neutral - simply because half I know are adorable the other half are a serious threat to other dogs


no ganging up from me. but being as wobbles is sitting at the PC maybe it would be an idea to obtain a general history on the dogs she really doesn't like. as most of them , american bulldogs , staffordshire BT's are generally known to be historically good with people and children just not other dogs - so whatever her fears are they are unfounded.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> Before everyone *gangs up* on Wobbles and it ends up in the usual ban for anyone who does not* adore *bull breeds, why not find out what formed the perception he/she has? We don't know where they live it could be a valid view from their own experience or it could be based on the media we don't know.
> 
> Personally I don't have a view unless I know a particular breed, the only bull breeds I have met are Staffies and I am neutral - simply because half I know are adorable the other half are a serious threat to other dogs


People expressing their own opinion are hardly 'ganging up' this is an internet forum everyone has the right to their piece including wobbles.

adore- really? Come on- how unhelpful is this. There's a difference in breed prefernce, likes and dislikes and abject slating.

If wobbles want to justify their fear then fine, if she doesn't then fine.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> Before everyone gangs up on Wobbles and it ends up in the usual ban for anyone who does not adore bull breeds, why not find out what formed the perception he/she has? We don't know where they live it could be a valid view from their own experience or it could be based on the media we don't know.
> 
> Personally I don't have a view unless I know a particular breed, the only bull breeds I have met are Staffies and I am neutral - simply because half I know are adorable the other half are a serious threat to other dogs


Ummmmmmmmm I don't even own a bull breed.............

I also don't think this is just about Bull breeds....

Wobbles comments are insulting to bull breed owners and to anyone who has a what did you call them " more demanding" breed of dog....

Sweeping comments and generalizing about people and certain breeds don't help things..

BTW you never did say what you consider a " more demanding" breed?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Before everyone gangs up on Wobbles and it ends up in the *usual ban for anyone who does not adore bull breeds*, why not find out what formed the perception he/she has? We don't know where they live it could be a valid view from their own experience or it could be based on the media we don't know.
> 
> Personally I don't have a view unless I know a particular breed, the only bull breeds I have met are Staffies and I am neutral - simply because half I know are adorable the other half are a serious threat to other dogs


Is that what happens on here? Oh my god, that is insane! So what happens if you get someone who doesn't like labs? Or spaniels? Or corgis? Or chihuahuas? Or Dalmatians? Or poodles? Or beagles? Or westies? Or alsatians? Or small dogs? Or big dogs? Or short haired ones? Or long haired ones? Do they also get torn apart on here?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Perhpaps Wobbles should educate herself

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/publications/230603563_Pit Bull Placebo.pdf


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Colette said:


> You won't see a yob with a poodle? Give it time! One of the many dog books I read some years back got the stats from a vet surgery in a US state that banned pit bulls. As pit bull registrations dropped registrations of rotties and other 'macho' breeds increased. If you ban one scary breed the yobs will just move onto the next. It used to be German shepherds and dobermanns, then pits, now it includes various mastiffs, akitas, even ridgebacks that have a bad rap. Ban them and the idiots will pick a new breed. Will you care when they get to collies and poodles???


akita's now they are interesting ones
these dogs were often left with babies in japan while their mothers worked the fields


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Is that what happens on here? Oh my god, that is insane! So what happens if you get someone who doesn't like labs? Or spaniels? Or corgis? Or chihuahuas? Or Dalmatians? Or poodles? Or beagles? Or westies? Or alsatians? Or small dogs? Or big dogs? Or short haired ones? Or long haired ones? Do they also get torn apart on here?


I wouldn't know - I've never seen someone silly enough to suggest certain breeds are only owned by certain owners or not suitable to be family pets :lol:

Until today that is


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> I meant that white dog which belonged to the owner. I wouldn't say a dog that tore a 14 yr old to pieces was fit to be a family pet at all.


But that's not even close to what you first said!
I very specifically asked you what you found terrifying about that dog, and you never once mentioned that it had anything to do with the fact that he killed a child. You said it was the "look", the "type". Nothing to do with what the dog has been charged with, everything to do with what the dog looks like. 
Your own words:


Wobbles said:


> *It's not the colour or size of the white dog, its the type,* which is why the black dog wouldn't bother me. Neither would the one in the above pic. Colour and size of any dog does not bother me, but I honestly admit apart from a genuine bulldog, *all the bull breeds frighten me,* SBT's being at the very top of the list.


Note you said ALL of the bull breeds frighten you. Now you're trying to say this dog is frightening because of what he did. Make up your mind!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I wouldn't know - I've never seen someone silly enough to suggest certain breeds are only owned by certain owners or not suitable to be family pets :lol:
> 
> Until today that is


But certain breeds are owned by certain people? Who pick them deliberately for unsavourable traits? Not everyone perhaps, but a lot.

That dog killed someone, there is no way its fit to be a family pet.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> But certain breeds are owned by certain people? Who pick them deliberately for unsavourable traits? Not everyone perhaps, but a lot.
> 
> That dog killed someone, there is no way its fit to be a family pet.


You really are too ignorant for me to have discourse with - perhaps in a few years time

I'm outta here - you're too annoying to bother with


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> But certain breeds are owned by certain people? Who pick them deliberately for unsavourable traits? Not everyone perhaps, but a lot.


You really really are doing yourself NO favours here...........

What are "insavourable" (sic) traits? In these so called breeds?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> But that's not even close to what you first said!
> I very specifically asked you what you found terrifying about that dog, and you never once mentioned that it had anything to do with the fact that he killed a child. You said it was the "look", the "type". Nothing to do with what the dog has been charged with, everything to do with what the dog looks like.
> Your own words:
> 
> Note you said ALL of the bull breeds frighten you. Now you're trying to say this dog is frightening because of what he did. Make up your mind!


The bull breeds do frighten me. Someone posted what I said about that white dog that it shouldn't be a family pet, and took it to mean all of them and I didn't. I mean that specific dog that has killed someone.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> *But certain breeds are owned by certain people? Who pick them deliberately for unsavourable traits?* Not everyone perhaps, but a lot.


really , what draws you to that conclusion? i pick a dog breed because i like them and happen to think they will fit in with my lifestyle it has nothing at all to do with the way a dog looks.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

meh and I said I was shutting up..... :cursing:


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Unless it's wagg!!  JOKE!!!!!!


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> I don't know what the situation is on your side of the Atlantic ouesi, but there are definitely a lot of BCs & their crosses in rescue here, the internet ad pages are also full of them, people get them as cute fluffy puppies then realise as they mature they need to have something to do, be it herding, agility, whatever, not just sat at home & maybe getting a 10 minute walk here & there


Oh it's the same here. They also get nippy pretty easily too. I just used collies as an example because wobbles owns a collie that as far as I can tell is a family pet. It's certainly not out herding sheep from what I gather of wobbles' posts asking for help in training and behavior 



DoodlesRule said:


> Before everyone gangs up on Wobbles and it ends up in the usual ban for anyone who does not adore bull breeds, *why not find out what formed the perception he/she has? * We don't know where they live it could be a valid view from their own experience or it could be based on the media we don't know.
> 
> Personally I don't have a view unless I know a particular breed, the only bull breeds I have met are Staffies and I am neutral - simply because half I know are adorable the other half are a serious threat to other dogs


Um... have you not been reading my posts?? I'm doing exactly that - trying to understand where wobbles is coming from. I even said so directly to wobbles.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Meezey said:


> You really really are doing yourself NO favours here...........
> 
> What are "insavourable" (sic) traits? In these so called breeds?


How about aggression towards people? Aggression towards other dogs/animals? Things that can be used for dog fights perhaps? Or for making sure others give you a wide berth when your up to no good? That sort of thing.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> *How about aggression towards people? *Aggression towards other dogs/animals? Things that can be used for dog fights perhaps? Or for making sure others give you a wide berth when your up to no good? That sort of thing.


theres not a dog breed i know of that has ever been bred to be aggressive towards people , not even the pit bull - the clue is in the name ''pit bull''......


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> How about aggression towards people? Aggression towards other dogs/animals? Things that can be used for dog fights perhaps? Or for making sure others give you a wide berth when your up to no good? That sort of thing.


Just ................
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Any dog can be aggressive towards people ut:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> How about aggression towards people? Aggression towards other dogs/animals? Things that can be used for dog fights perhaps? Or for making sure others give you a wide berth when your up to no good? That sort of thing.


I don't know of any breed bred to be people aggressive defo not pitbull, in fact I'd go as far to say they have been bred to be NOT people aggressive.

Any dog can be dog/animal aggressive.

and again you go an make the last comment

"Or for making sure others give you a wide berth when your up to no good?"

Seriously and you don't understand why people are getting slightly worked up.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

My poodle x has torn my Bulldogs ear in 3 places, not horrifically, but enough to bleed a lot and most definitely scar. Bradley didn't fight back. 

A Bichon Frise bit Bradley on the face so hard that it drew blood. Bradley didn't fight back, instead he hid behind me.

A Labrador lunged and pinned Bradley to the floor, mouth dangerously close to his neck, snarling at him. Bradley didn't react, he stood up and tried to run home.

He was bred for health and personality. He is a loving, sweet boy, and is trained with respect and positivity. Negative behaviour is not accepted.
I am most certainly not after a status dog, nor am I a 'chav', no one in my family is. We are the responsible MAJORITY.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I don't know of any breed bred to be people aggressive defo not pitbull, in fact I'd go as far to say they have been bred to be NOT people aggressive.


that is exactly right , they weren't bred to be people aggressive , this was classed as an undesirable trait and pits that possessed that trait were often culled to avoid passing on such a trait.
people needed to be able to pull the dogs apart in the pit and often stood/stand in the pit - which of course you wouldn't be able to do if the dogs were aggressive towards people.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Any dog can be dog/animal aggressive.


Of course, but some breeds are more so than others - some even say as much in their breed standard! I must admit I do sometimes wonder why people who live in high dog population areas want a breed that is intolerant of other dogs!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> Is that what happens on here? Oh my god, that is insane! So what happens if you get someone who doesn't like labs? Or spaniels? Or corgis? Or chihuahuas? Or Dalmatians? Or poodles? Or beagles? Or westies? Or alsatians? Or small dogs? Or big dogs? Or short haired ones? Or long haired ones? Do they also get torn apart on here?


Oh do grow up & stop being a drama llama, you insulted people with your comments, expect much fallout



Wobbles said:


> But certain breeds are owned by certain people? Who pick them deliberately for *unsavourable* traits? Not everyone perhaps, but a lot.
> 
> That dog killed someone, there is no way its fit to be a family pet.


Please, if you're going to use long words, at least Google them to see if they actually exist



Wobbles said:


> How about aggression towards people? Aggression towards other dogs/animals? Things that can be used for dog fights perhaps? Or for making sure others give you a wide berth when your up to no good? That sort of thing.


OK, so these owners of so called status dogs only have them so they can scare people away while they're up to dubious deeds now. I can see your logic, I take my rescue status dog with me when I go for quiet country walks & perhaps indulge in a bit of wildlife watching, that's well dodgy innit.....


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I wonder how many of us have been thanked by bull breed owners for staying to pet their dogs or allowing our non bull breeds to play with them? I've met so many 'scary' breed dogs but only 1 da rottie and 1 da staff. All the rest, dozens if not more, have been great with people and other dogs. And they were owned by perfectly normal, loving, responsible people who do not want to be avoided, look hard or whatever. Equally I know several dogs who have been attacked by Labradors, and every person I know who has been bitten was bitten by a jack Russell or a yorkie. We've had cockers, labs and yorkies have a go at our bichons, yet solo and tilly both played fine with various mastiffs and bull breeds. Hell solo's girlfriend is the most adorable American bulldog I've ever met!!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> My poodle x has torn my Bulldogs ear in 3 places, not horrifically, but enough to bleed a lot and most definitely scar. Bradley didn't fight back.
> 
> A Bichon Frise bit Bradley on the face so hard that it drew blood. Bradley didn't fight back, instead he hid behind me.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, you just want a pet bulldog. Therefore you don't want a "status dog". The clue is in the name, if you want a status dog , you want something that makes an impact on your image. In the same way as if you want a handbag dog, you want it to look like Paris Hilton. That isn't the same as someone who just happens to like chihuuahuua's and toy dogs. There's a difference.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> The bull breeds do frighten me. Someone posted what I said about that white dog that it shouldn't be a family pet, and took it to mean all of them and I didn't. I mean that specific dog that has killed someone.


Okay, I think you need to go back and re-read your posts in this thread because if all you meant was that bull breeds scare you, then that is not at all what is coming across in print. What is coming across is sounding pretty hateful and bigoted. If that's not how you mean to portray yourself, you may want to consider posting more clearly.



Wobbles said:


> How about aggression towards people? Aggression towards other dogs/animals? Things that can be used for dog fights perhaps? Or for making sure others give you a wide berth when your up to no good? That sort of thing.


Wobbles, bull breeds are descended from the bullenbeissers, an ancient breed used by butchers to help keep bulls in line on their way to market. Not a herding dog, but a catch dog. Owners of good bull dogs arranged bull baiting matches to show off their dog's skills. This cruel sport was eventually outlawed (in the 1800's) and soon replaced with pit sports where dogs were put in a pit to see how many rats they could catch or put in a pit to fight each other. (Note the theme of banning one cruel practice just leads to another cruel practice being invented to replace the first.) 
In order to create better pit dogs, the bull baiters were mixed with the ratting terriers to create the pit+bull+terrier. See?

When the brits came to the new world they brought their dogs with them, and in the US pit bull terriers were used as all purpose dogs on the family farm. They could be herding cattle one moment, pulling a cart the next, or babysitting the kids. They were still fought, and as fighters were specifically selected to be hugely tolerant of handling even when in pain (they were stitched up, patched up after fights without anesthesia), even under high arousal conditions (they were also handled IN the pit in the middle of a match and were expected to NEVER redirect on to the human, as often opposing dogmen had to handle each other's dogs). Dogs who redirected on to humans were not tolerated.

As for aggression towards other animals, you do know that breeds like sighthounds are notorious for killing small furry things that run right? Like the neighbor's cat? TONS of breeds are specifically bred to want to kill other animals. Doesn't make them unsuitable as pets.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Blimey domestic cats are savage killers of other animals but no one is trying to ban them or suggesting their owners want to look hard.

I didn't hit the 'like' button by accident, I think wobbles has recovered. Yes some people choose certain breeds for their macho image, others choose toy breeds for that image. But there's a reason many people view Chihuahuas as ankle biters - exactly the same reason bull breeds are seen as monsters. Bad owners!!


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

Colette said:


> Blimey domestic cats are savage killers of other animals but no one is trying to ban them or suggesting their owners want to look hard.
> 
> I didn't hit the 'like' button by accident, I think wobbles has recovered. Yes some people choose certain breeds for their macho image, others choose toy breeds for that image. But there's a reason many people view Chihuahuas as ankle biters - exactly the same reason bull breeds are seen as monsters. Bad owners!!


Hmm...there are a lot of people who think cats should be contained and not allowed to roam and that roaming cats should be confiscated...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Fair enough, you just want a pet bulldog. Therefore you don't want a "status dog". The clue is in the name, if you want a status dog , you want something that makes an impact on your image. In the same way as if you want a handbag dog, you want it to look like Paris Hilton. That isn't the same as someone who just happens to like chihuuahuua's and toy dogs. There's a difference.


Very true and responsible owners don't get dogs to impact their image nor do they need them too.

The difference is, which most of us have been saying all along, it's the owner not the breed who is at fault..


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm quite wary of a number of dogs, most are bull breeds, but not all and I'm wary for my dog's sake, not mine.

The only reason I haven't had a problem with the GSD x Great Danes on the yard is because I avoid them when I have Elles with me, she knows she's not allowed anywhere near them and they are either respectful or scared of me, as I only have to look at them for them to move away. One has killed sheep, chickens and attacked more than one dog, including a cocker spaniel pup who needed £300 worth of veterinary treatment afterwards and was lucky to survive. On that occasion it had hidden bones and was resource guarding, the owner of the pup didn't know and innocently walked past with her pup.

If someone saw them though, they'd think they were a bull breed cross as they do look very much like mastiff crosses not what they are. Their father, the GSD, was aggressive to dogs and people and even bit a child.

Today, in Cheltenham I think it was, someone was crossing the road at a pedestrian crossing with their dog, when they heard someone behind them say 'watch this'. Next thing a bull breed (they said pit bull, but unlikely) slammed into their dog and tried to attack it. The bull breed had a nylon muzzle on (the type vets use) and a flexi lead. According to witnesses, the owner and his mates appeared to be drunk and deliberately set the dog onto the innocent dog, releasing the flexi lead lock. A passer by tried to stop them and 2 passers by offered to go to the police with the innocent dog owner to report them, but what for? The dog was muzzled on a lead. 

That is the kind of person and dog that would really frighten me, more for my dog's sake than mine.

I used to baby sit for people who had a bull mastiff. The dog used to jump up at their patio doors having hysterics. Eventually it was put down when it managed to get into the house and kill someone else's dog. They couldn't get it off and broke broom handles on it trying to. These people were dealers who had the dog as protection and wanted it to be aggressive, but like the owner in the article were actually frightened of him themselves.

This is what scares me. What law prevents, or could prevent aggressive idiocy and drunken stupidity?

I like the idea that someone else forwarded, that the dog's owner is prosecuted just as they would be for using a knife or a gun. Make the owners responsible for damage caused by their dog. We all need to ensure that our dogs cause no harm and be willing to accept the consequences if they do I think. If my dog badly hurt someone, I'd expect to be locked up. 

Considering how many dogs there are and how many careless, abusive or inexperienced owners, it's amazing how few attacks there actually are. Dogs are pretty wonderful animals really, whatever their breed. :001_wub:


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> How about aggression towards people? Aggression towards other dogs/animals? Things that can be used for dog fights perhaps? Or for making sure others give you a wide berth when your up to no good? That sort of thing.





ouesi said:


> Okay, I think you need to go back and re-read your posts in this thread because if all you meant was that bull breeds scare you, then that is not at all what is coming across in print. What is coming across is sounding pretty hateful and bigoted. If that's not how you mean to portray yourself, you may want to consider posting more clearly.
> 
> Wobbles, bull breeds are descended from the bullenbeissers, an ancient breed used by butchers to help keep bulls in line on their way to market. Not a herding dog, but a catch dog. Owners of good bull dogs arranged bull baiting matches to show off their dog's skills. This cruel sport was eventually outlawed (in the 1800's) and soon replaced with pit sports where dogs were put in a pit to see how many rats they could catch or put in a pit to fight each other. (Note the theme of banning one cruel practice just leads to another cruel practice being invented to replace the first.)
> In order to create better pit dogs, the bull baiters were mixed with the ratting terriers to create the pit+bull+terrier. See?
> ...


I'm not allowed to give you any more rep for a while  so I am posting a public display of appreciation instead.

Brilliant informed post (the polar opposite to some of the ignorant nonsense that I've read on this thread).


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Alice Childress said:


> I'm not allowed to give you any more rep for a while  so I am posting a public display of appreciation instead.
> 
> Brilliant informed post (the polar opposite to some of the ignorant nonsense that I've read on this thread).


Wanted to Rep to but couldn't, great post  Ouesi


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

People scare me more than any dog out there and because of people I'm scared for some of our wonderful breeds :'(

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion."


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

LOL thanks for the love :blushing:

I'm trying to go by the "ignorance can be educated" part of Aristophanes' famous quote:

Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

I apologise if this has already been mentioned but I was very upset to see some of the comments on the BBC news report on their website in response to all of this. 

So many ignorant comments. People suggesting _all_ dogs of all breeds should be muzzled at all times when outside their home!

I couldn't read them all as the negative and anti-bull breed comments far outweighed any sensible responses.


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

I don't think any breeds should be banned imo certain people should be banned from owning certain breeds. The only people I see with these types of dogs who have a bad reputation are young adults (even though i'm young myself) and whilst some are lovely dogs others are worse. My friends brother use to own a pit x staffy and he was the most aggressive dog i have ever met and he basically wanted him for some sort of ego boost or to make people fear him? This dog was 3 years old and had already had 7 different owners because they couldn't handle him or because they were worried they would get caught with him as he was illegal and he ended up handing him over to somebody else too! so what, that's like 9 homes? maybe even more now?. That's what i see with these types of dogs most of them are not in loving homes or looked after properly or they have no sense of security so they end up becoming aggressive and i'm not saying EVERY single person who owns one of these breeds is like that because i'm sure there's hundreds of these breeds who are just like any good natured dog you'll meet. Everyone is saying that a bull breed is just like any other dog and many dogs bite etc etc whilst i do agree but if you look at the facts, the facts are that these types of breeds have been basically the only dogs in the media for attacking kids or adults and it has made people terrified of them. My mother is terrified of staffies & Akitas, she wont go near one and that's because of the rep they have. 

I think if you want to own these types of breeds their should be an age limit or a licence you have to have or maybe you should be made to take your dog to training classes to show you are a responsible owner, I don't know how they would even make anyone comply to the rules because even though pitbulls are illegal i know people who own them or pitbull X's. I don't know but something needs to be done about irresponsible owners!!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Royoyo said:


> Everyone is saying that a bull breed is just like any other dog and many dogs bite etc etc whilst i do agree but if you look at the facts, the facts are that these types of breeds have been basically the only dogs in the media for attacking kids or adults and it has made people terrified of them. My mother is terrified of staffies & Akitas, she wont go near one and that's because of the rep they have.


It is not fact. These "types" of breed are not the on't ones who have attacked children and adults...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Quite apt what's just come up in my FB newsfeed:


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Meezey said:


> It is not fact. These "types" of breed are not the on't ones who have attacked children and adults...


He's completely right - they're only breeds IN THE MEDIA that seem to attack children  :lol: Are people so transparent that they don't realise the agenda here


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

Meezey said:


> It is not fact. These "types" of breed are not the on't ones who have attacked children and adults...


So what types of dogs are the ones who attacked children and adults? what dogs do you see a lot of in the paper or in the media surrounding attacks? what type of dogs were the ones who killed that girl? I'm just stating my opinion, am i not allowed one? I'm not saying these breeds are bad, if you read my post you would see I'm all for these types of dogs if they have responsible owners.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> He's completely right - they're only breeds IN THE MEDIA that seem to attack children  :lol: Are people so transparent that they don't realise the agenda here


Doh didn't read that MEDIA bit.. Course we all know the that's the oracle of all truth and knowledge........ my bad :blushing:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Royoyo said:


> So what types of dogs are the ones who attacked children and adults? what dogs do you see a lot of in the paper or in the media surrounding attacks? what type of dogs were the ones who killed that girl? I'm just stating my opinion, am i not allowed one? I'm not saying these breeds are bad, if you read my post you would see I'm all for these types of dogs if they have responsible owners.


Where did I say you weren't allowed an opinion, you might have noticed this thread has been going on alllllllllllllllllllllllllllll day  with lots of different opinions


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Royoyo said:


> Everyone is saying that a bull breed is just like any other dog and many dogs bite etc etc whilst i do agree but if you look at *the facts, the facts are that these types of breeds have been basically the only dogs in the media for attacking kids or adults a*nd it has made people terrified of them. My mother is terrified of staffies & Akitas, she wont go near one and that's because of the rep they have.


Yes, but what you are referring to is media propaganda. Your mother is scared of those dogs because of their reputation yes, but their reputation is inaccurate and unfair and scaremongering by the media. Other dogs attack. Those stories do not make an interesting a read though.

Don't believe everything you read in the newspaper.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Royoyo said:


> So what types of dogs are the ones who attacked children and adults? what dogs do you see a lot of in the paper or in the media surrounding attacks? what type of dogs were the ones who killed that girl? I'm just stating my opinion, am i not allowed one? I'm not saying these breeds are bad, if you read my post you would see I'm all for these types of dogs if they have responsible owners.


Do you get all your information from The Daily Mail then  Pretty sure if you open your eyes and look around you'll find most breeds of dogs are represented in dog attacks - with springer spaniels and daschunds being one of the most likely culprits - didn't realise they were bullies!!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> He's completely right - they're only breeds IN THE MEDIA that seem to attack children  :lol: Are people so transparent that they don't realise the agenda here


A lab bites a child, it's lucky if it reaches the local paper, a bull breed/Rottie/Akita/Dobe/GSD bites a child & you can practically hear the scraping of cutlery against crockery from my house as the popular media dine out on it. They live for those stories.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Airedale: Anne Beth Grotzky, 87, died from complications of surgery for a broken hip suffered on July 27, 2010 when an Airedale kept by Dale Eggers, 65, knocked her down. 

Australian shepherd mix: Involved with golden retriever mix in July 26, 2008 fatal attack on Lorraine

Dachshund: Julia Beck, 87, of Fort Wayne, died 5/15/05

Chihuahua: Dog on retractable leash leaped up and bit the lip of a six-year-old who was riding past on a bicycle

East Highland terrier: Victim, age 75, died of heart attack.

Poodle: Very strange 2002 case involved prescription drug use possibly affecting dog as well as victim.

West Highland terrier: Rose Kazarian, 75, suffered a fatal heart attack after a bite by a leashed West Highland Terrier



Oh no - all bullies!!!11


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

I can't be bothered to read this thread anymore.. Nor any other on the subject

I have had bull terriers all my life( note the name bull terrier as that is a breed it is not a general term for bull breeds ) ..my very first dog was a bull terrier , I was an inexperienced owner and non of my dogs have ever shown any aggression to people..one did to other dogs, he suffered from hepaticencephalopathy.

.I am not a Chav ..I am a 5ft 2 inch ,working , married mother of one 

And I so fear for the future of bull breeds ..some of the things I read from uneducated people about 'these types of dogs ' really make me so sad


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## tia maria (Sep 16, 2012)

Haven't yet read all the pages of this post, but wanted to echo DEED NOT BREED

We have had a few dogs in the 38 yrs we have been married. The one we have now is a Staff/Lurcher cross and she is noticeably more muscly than any of our previous dogs
She makes me laugh. I never had any trouble giving all our other dogs tablets, but Tia clamps her jaws shut and makes it nearly impossible
I know she could inflict severe injury BUT she is a loving people lover


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

> A recent study carried out on 6,000 dogs and their owners found out 33 of the most aggressive dogs, and also those which have good temperaments. The study involved collecting data from two different groups. The first group consisted of 11 different breeds and the second was an online survey mainly involving owners, including 33 breeds. The conclusions from both groups were similar. It looked at the different types of aggression such as towards other dogs, towards strangers and towards owners. Some of the results were surprising, below are the top ten most aggressive breed:
> 
> 1 Dachshunds
> 2.Chihuahua
> ...


Dangerous Dog Breeds | Dog Bite Claims

Can we stop with the propoganda now please - kthx!!


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> Do you get all your information from The Daily Mail then  Pretty sure if you open your eyes and look around you'll find most breeds of dogs are represented in dog attacks - with springer spaniels and daschunds being one of the most likely culprits - didn't realise they were bullies!!


No I don't actually but basically most of the population of the United Kingdom do, obviously excluding yourself... My eyes are open, I never said bull breeds are the only breeds that attack people, I'm saying they are ALWAYS in the media for attacking people and that makes people scared of these types of dogs, so they should have more responsible owners or laws for people who want to own these types of dogs. So maybe you should open your eyes a bit, you're opinion isn't correct neither is mine. There's no need to be rude to people for having an opinion, I wasn't rude to you. Maybe get out more? have a good day


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Royoyo said:


> No I don't actually but basically most of the population of the United Kingdom do, obviously excluding yourself... My eyes are open, I never said bull breeds are the only breeds that attack people, I'm saying they are ALWAYS in the media for attacking people and that makes people scared of these types of dogs, so they should have more responsible owners or laws for people who want to own these types of dogs. So maybe you should open your eyes a bit, you're opinion isn't correct neither is mine. *There's no need to be rude* to people for having an opinion, I wasn't rude to you. *Maybe get out more?* have a good day


:lol: Oh the irony

Perhaps get out more and stop reading red tops


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Airedale: Anne Beth Grotzky, 87, died from complications of surgery for a broken hip suffered on July 27, 2010 when an Airedale kept by Dale Eggers, 65, knocked her down.
> 
> Australian shepherd mix: Involved with golden retriever mix in July 26, 2008 fatal attack on Lorraine
> 
> ...


With all due respesct, all but one of those have died of shock/heart attack as an effect of a dog attack, not been ripped apart directly by the dog! So you can't really say any of those above are dangerous, more unfortunate.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Ummmmmmmmm I don't even own a bull breed.............
> 
> I also don't think this is just about Bull breeds....
> 
> ...


Agree totally its not just about Bull breeds at all. But I don't understand why owners are so defensive, so insulted?

Comments have been posted about Collies - there hasn't been lots of outrage from Collie owners has there? I've got a cross breed, by all accounts I am a drip with more money than sense and only have my dog because someone famous has one. I know thats not me so don't need to defend either myself or my dog.

My perception of demanding is simply that, mine! But basically if it can be a danger to others (and I mean generally as acknowledged in breed details as yes all dogs can do if in the wrong hands). So if you want specifics from me than a dog you need to take extra steps to ensure they are super socialised with other dogs as they have a tendency for dog agression, or a guarding breed for example where you have to take extra steps to ensure they accept people they don't know.

Personally, I also probably wouldn't go for a scent hound because it takes extra effort I'm lazy, but a dog bannering off is not the same as one that could cause harm to other dogs or people.

If I came on here and said I am thinking of getting my first ever dog and like xyz - there will be replies saying that is not a good choice for a first dog, novice, they need special handling so there are certain dogs that are not suitable for various reasons


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> With all due respesct, all but one of those have died of shock/heart attack as an effect of a dog attack, not been ripped apart directly by the dog! So you can't really say any of those above are dangerous, more unfortunate.


All but one - I see maths isn't your strong point


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I am sat in my office singing Public Enemy's "Don't believe the hype"


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Oh, on this side of the pond, definitely the media tends to report on pitbull attacks much more than others.
Or even better, even when the dog who attacked wasn't even a pitbull, they'll just add in a spin that makes it look like it was.

This is the actual dog who killed the poor baby in question (never mind how the HELL do you sleep through your child being mauled to death).
Authorities: Dog kills, dismembers SC 2-month-old : News : CarolinaLive.com

Yet THIS is how the story travelled through the media. 
Cops: Family Dog Kills, Dismembers 2-Month-Old Boy « CBS Charlotte

Notice anything about the photos? And we wonder why people think the only dogs who kill babies are dreaded bull breeds?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> With all due respesct, all but one of those have died of shock/heart attack as an effect of a dog attack, not been ripped apart directly by the dog! So you can't really say any of those above are dangerous, more unfortunate.


One of the things I was always told about treating dog bites, IS the number shock is the killer..............

I don't even know why I'm bothering I honestly don't..............


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Meezey said:


> One of the things I was always told about treating dog bites, IS the number shock is the killer..............
> 
> *I don't even know why I'm bothering* I honestly don't..............


When someone sees 'fatal attack' and also 'attack on six year old' and comes up with that equalling 1 I really don't


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> With all due respesct, all but one of those have died of shock/heart attack as an effect of a dog attack, not been ripped apart directly by the dog! So you can't really say any of those above are dangerous, more unfortunate.


8 day old baby killed by Jack Russell Nov 23rd 2012.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Oh, on this side of the pond, definitely the media tends to report on pitbull attacks much more than others.
> Or even better, even when the dog who attacked wasn't even a pitbull, they'll just add in a spin that makes it look like it was.
> 
> This is the actual dog who killed the poor baby in question (never mind how the HELL do you sleep through your child being mauled to death).
> ...


Doesn't surprise me - the media is full of idiots with agendas - couple that with people who don't question and you have mass hysteria

Not finished 'The Pitbull Placebo' as it's very very long but it's all so true re: the media deciding what breeds are good and bad and the populace jumping on it regardless of what is actually happening


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> With all due respesct, all but one of those have died of shock/heart attack as an effect of a dog attack, not been ripped apart directly by the dog! So you can't really say any of those above are dangerous, more unfortunate.


Labrador mix kills 2 month old baby April 22nd 2012


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Comments have been posted about Collies - there hasn't been lots of outrage from Collie owners has there?


As a collie owner, no, but I don't really care what people think about collies. No-one is calling for collies to be banned, muzzled, made illegal to own and dogs put to sleep for looking like collies. 

I think much of the outrage and strong opinion could be down to fear. People fearing that their much loved, well behaved, soft as a brush dog could fall foul of the law, just because of the way they look and their perceived potential for harm.

I admitted, I can be afraid of some bull breed dogs and what their owners may cause them to do. I shouldn't be, I shouldn't need to be.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Meezey said:


> 8 day old baby killed by Jack Russell Nov 23rd 2012.


Must have been on drugs or had a heart attack


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> With all due respesct, all but one of those have died of shock/heart attack as an effect of a dog attack, not been ripped apart directly by the dog! So you can't really say any of those above are dangerous, more unfortunate.


I see you've conveniently ignored my post about the history - the NON human aggressive history - of pitbulls, but you may want to check out the two links I posted - same story, retriever mix ripped a poor toddler's leg off  

And the media used a stock photo of a pitbull to run with the story....


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I see you've conveniently ignored my post about the history - the NON human aggressive history - of pitbulls, but you may want to check out the two links I posted - same story, retriever mix ripped a poor toddler's leg off
> 
> And the media used a stock photo of a pitbull to run with the story....


On our side of the pond we have lovely snarling pictures of staffies in every journalists 'go to' box even when it's a JRT or lab involved :lol: The media don't change - they just write in different countries


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

It's kind of frightening to read similar comments on here, a place for _dog_ lovers (of all breeds, or so I thought) to the ignorant, prejudiced comments on the BBC news website. 

If _dog_ lovers can be so bloomin' prejudiced and believe what they read in the papers then no wonder the public who don't love dogs in general and feel a certain animosity in general towards anyone who owns a _dog_ what chance and hope is there for a sensible way forward.......... 

I have italicised the word _dog_ as I feel there are just '_dogs_ in this world. And I am a _dog_ lover - and proud to be one! 

As _dog_ lovers we really, really, really need to be standing firmly together and side by side to protect our beloved dogs and their freedoms. As the freedoms and rights of every breed of _dog_ is being challenged by the Public - go read the BBC website.....


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Hanlou said:


> It's kind of frightening to read similar comments on here, a place for _dog_ lovers (of all breeds, or so I thought) to the ignorant, prejudiced comments on the BBC news website.
> 
> If _dog_ lovers can be so bloomin' prejudiced and believe what they read in the papers then no wonder the public who don't love dogs in general and feel a certain animosity in general towards anyone who owns a _dog_ what chance and hope is there for a sensible way forward..........
> 
> ...


BRAVO! Tragic isn't it. Do not hate or fear what you don't understand !


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Phoolf, can I ask how much genuine anti bull breed sentiment have you come across personally, out in the real world? I only ask because I have actually ever encountered anti crossbreed talk, on well here actually. 

The only peson I have come across who was aware of any detrimental comment or even the rescue situation with staffies is one person - she has a pedigree whippet and shows.

Most folk I know simply view individual dogs/owners as a problem rather than breeds as a whole


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I refer to my earlier post about breeds responsible for human fatalities, breeds inc terriers, retrievers, hounds, toy breeds etc have killed people. Banning bullies will achieve NOTHING!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> Phoolf, can I ask how much genuine anti bull breed sentiment have you come across personally, out in the real world? I only ask because I have actually ever encountered anti crossbreed talk, on well here actually.
> 
> The only peson I have come across who was aware of any detrimental comment or even the rescue situation with staffies is one person - she has a pedigree whippet and shows.
> 
> Most folk I know simply view individual dogs/owners as a problem rather than breeds as a whole


If by anti-bull breed sentiment you mean people screaming and crossing the road or pulling their dogs away from mine like she's a monster then lots 

ETA I'll concede perhaps some owners have genuine reasons for fearing for their dogs - perhaps because their dogs are actually fearful etc but many just see her and assume the worst even if under control or not even near them


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> Phoolf, can I ask how much genuine anti bull breed sentiment have you come across personally, out in the real world? I only ask because I have actually ever encountered anti crossbreed talk, on well here actually.
> 
> The only peson I have come across who was aware of any detrimental comment or even the rescue situation with staffies is one person - she has a pedigree whippet and shows.
> 
> Most folk I know simply view individual dogs/owners as a problem rather than breeds as a whole


Go and read the BBC website Sky New Website and see for yourself


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Hanlou said:


> I apologise if this has already been mentioned but I was very upset to see some of the comments on the BBC news report on their website in response to all of this.
> 
> So many ignorant comments. People suggesting _all_ dogs of all breeds should be muzzled at all times when outside their home!
> 
> I couldn't read them all as the negative and anti-bull breed comments far outweighed any sensible responses.


excuse me i havent figured how to include another quote saying...SOME PEOPLE SHOULD BE BANNED FROM OWNING CERTAIN BREEDS....

I just came in from a nice walk and encounter with 2 huge beaucerons male and female a bit like rotts i add a Fr breed...man had always been nervous about my to him trusting no worries letting my belgians loose around them when small pup and now when adults...said one bite from those and my then pup and even now adult half the weight and size female in particular and that would be curtains...

no probs ever, not then not now after many months never met...a couple of growls and posturing then all happy no interuption to my talking to chap...

the comment i like the MOST read recently here is the one that says CONSIDERING THE POWER AND CAPACITY of dogs it is TO DOGS CREDIT that not more terrible accidents happen with such bad living and training etc conditions...

and why do i like that most ?

BECAUSE LOOKING AT THE ummmm DOGFIGHTING ??? between HUMANS here on various to me lacking breed even recognition of many breeds of dogs....i think it HILARIOUS !!! hilarious !!! DOGS GET ON BETTER than us humans for SURE ! thank goodness they are not jumping at each others throats for offenses in semantics or misunderstandings hey !!!

HILARIOUS !

the DOWNSIDE is the ALL DOGS ON MUZZLES IN PUBLIC RISK to ALL dogs due to ANGER at this death for DOGS !!! the DEATH of JADE is something that HAS to have steps taken to try and punish and avoid risks in the future ..or those banging on about what breeds are getting bad names will drag the ENTIRE dogworld into measures like BANS and MUZZLES for sure !

IT IS A BLACK DAY FOR DOGS !!!! 
IN MY DARKEST BLACKEST MOMENTS I LOOK AT MY BLACK DOGS AND THINK THERE IS SOMETHING BLACK THAT IS BEAUTIFUL IN THIS DARK BLACK WORLD OF OURS ! in the dark seeking for light and understanding i do not let the black thoughts submerge me...IT IS NOT ALL BLACK ! ...let me not SINK INTO THE DARKNESS and lash out in anger but find a way to the light !

NOT JUST A BLACK DAY FOR JADE ! and do not think i am making fun of JADE but yes i am playing with words DARING in this play on words to say YES PERCEPTIONS OF BLACK can be an issue ! for some ! and YES therefore PERCEPTION of BREEDS that i admit i have VERY little knowledge of myself CAN BE AN ISSUE ! in fact ARE an issue ! PERCEPTIONS ! so CHANGE THOSE if possible ! but not by DOGFIGHTS between humans ! this is LAUGHABLE ! so i dare laugh at ALL Of us for this.

the SOLUTION may be BAN PEOPLE HAVING DOGS OUT IN PUBLIC one day even in the future ! hmy:

*CERTAInly i advocate BANNING SOME PEOPLE from having DOGS at all and LICENSES and CHECKS on dog owners ! and EDUCATION compulsory training of DOGOWNERS AND DOGS !*

excuse my maybe too long ramble but to excuse some of us here and even the outraged public out there especially non dog owners with DRASTIC views worse than those expressed even here i say EMOTIONS ARE HIGH ! so accept the fallout ! and i end joking dangerously that I ENJOY READING THE DOGFIGHT HERE between humans !!! HILARIOUS ! 

there is always hope...light at the end of the dark tunnel...for others like JADE to try for...


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> Phoolf, can I ask how much genuine anti bull breed sentiment have you come across personally, out in the real world? I only ask because I have actually ever encountered anti crossbreed talk, on well here actually.
> 
> The only peson I have come across who was aware of any detrimental comment or even the rescue situation with staffies is one person - she has a pedigree whippet and shows.
> 
> Most folk I know simply view individual dogs/owners as a problem rather than breeds as a whole


I know this question wasn't directed at me but i have a rescue staff x- and i will tell you right now that I have had a lot of comment:

from the neds in the street asking if he's 'hard as f*ck' or is that a pit bull
to the posh residents where i stay remarking on what a risky scenario i have put myself in taking on one of these dogs
don't play tug with 'your kind of dog'
don't let him play with other dogs
to other dog owners who always keep one eye on him

i have tried to book him into kennels- all has been fine until i said staff x- then wham- no we don't take dangerous dogs- KENNELS? I'm paying you to look after my dog on his own, not to mix with any others (not that he's DA and he's certainly not HA.- later I heard from a friend who owns spaniels and knows the kennel owner (we walk our dogs together sometimes) that she had queried this in defence of my dog with this woman- who said---- oh if she had only just said he was retriever cross we would have taken him

So there you go- aye, here's my retriever cross (with a blatant staffy face)- and i get painted as an irresponsible dog owner who should have to lie- I don't think so.

P.s i don't think my posts are defensive of the breed, i don't even own the breed, i never sought out the breed. We went to get a dog and Bruno picked us-

But i will not stand back and see such ridiculous statements and misinformation fly about on a dog forum.It's not about bulls, it's not about breed it's about prejudice.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Also- see the kennel woman, i volunteered with them for 2 years when i was wee for hands on experience- i was going to surprise her 16 years later- when i booked my dog in and turned up- never revealled who i was as i was so disgusted by her.

And when i worked there there was a chocolate lab in that literally spent the whole time growling and snarling at everyone and only the man was allowed to 'handle' it.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Go and read the BBC website Sky New Website and see for yourself


But thats no different than on well here a pet forum, not real life only a small percentage of the population will go on and post on such sites



Phoolf said:


> If by anti-bull breed sentiment you mean people screaming and crossing the road or pulling their dogs away from mine like she's a monster then lots
> 
> ETA I'll concede perhaps some owners have genuine reasons for fearing for their dogs - perhaps because their dogs are actually fearful etc but many just see her and assume the worst even if under control or not even near them


I have never had any one even say anything negative but a number have admitedly crossed the road or when in the fields have put their dogs on leads and gone the other way - I think for no other reason than because Dougie is big. He isn't a barker or growler and just trots along when on lead. but then I haven't asked - might be ignorance is bliss and they actually avoid us because they hate cross breeds?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> But thats no different than on well here a pet forum, not real life only a small percentage of the population will go on and post on such sites
> 
> I have never had any one even say anything negative but a number have admitedly crossed the road or when in the fields have put their dogs on leads and gone the other way - I think for no other reason than because Dougie is big. He isn't a barker or growler and just trots along when on lead. but then I haven't asked - might be ignorance is bliss and they actually avoid us because they hate cross breeds?


Sadly [or not sadly really] I can't account for how people behave - I've never felt the need to cross a road or be scared of any dog regardless of breed - size or any other factor - I've certainly never met any kind of crossbreed bashing IRL - I think that sort of thing is strictly just within 'doggy' circles or from those in the pedigree dog world


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> But thats no different than on well here a pet forum, not real life only a small percentage of the population will go on and post on such sites


88 pages of comments one Sky and counting...

I don't even have a bull breed, but get people crossing the road all the time, get people pulling their children closer to them with the "stay away from those devil dogs" comments, most small dog owners pick up their dogs when they see me coming.. It's lovely experience let me tell you 

The fact that Bull type breeds tend to not even make it out of pounds after their 7 days are up should give you an idea of "anti bull breed sentiment" out there, the fact the RSPC, KC and so forth feel the need to comment on it, the fact that so called dog lovers show their "anti bull breed sentiment" kinda shows it too.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't even have a dog yet and I have come across anti breed comments in the 'real world'! 

"Oh you want a dog? Just don't get one of those nasty staffy ones"

Someone that overheard me and a woman discussing dogs in rescue jumped in with "but it's hardly a surprise people don't want a rescue when they are full of staffies", I asked her what she meant, to which she said "well, you just couldn't trust one of them with children could you?".

Another woman telling me about her daughters dog "she's a staffy, but she's nothing like a normal staffy!! She's really lovely and so sweet". I replied with "yes, that sounds like how a staffy should be", "no, normally staffies are very dangerous, I mean hey have those locked jaws".

Sitting a bus stop and a woman with two staffie crosses walk by... once she's passed the women waiting next to me says "god, I hate those dogs". I said "oh, I really like dogs", to which she said "oh I like dogs, just not ones like that, horrible things".

I could go on! I have had the 'staffies have a lock jaw' conversation with more people than I care to remember. They never believe me when I say it's a myth.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Sadly [or not sadly really] I can't account for how people behave - I've never felt the need to cross a road or be scared of any dog regardless of breed - size or any other factor - I've certainly never met any kind of crossbreed bashing IRL - I think that sort of thing is strictly just within 'doggy' circles or from those in the pedigree dog world


Thats what I am trying to say in a round about sort of way lol  Is the Staffie bashing just in doggy circles/pedigree world or a genuine issue in the real world? Where I live Staffie prejudice is no more real than any crossbreed issues ie it doesn't happen, individual Staffies then yes - one has seriously hurt numerous dogs and is given a wide berth by all local dog walkers but then thats the same for a rottie with the same problem, and an airdale - here the 3 particular dogs are seen as an issue not those 3 breeds


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I think a lot of people want the BSL to be in place, they want " more challenging" breeds to covered by it and stricter rules put in place because it leaves their dogs alone... The scary thing about it is, they don't realize their breed/cross breed could be next..............

Because with people like this about:
"Utter tosh. It's not just the owners. It's the dogs as well. If owners were the only problem, dogs wouldn't bark, smell, poop or carry disease. But they do. Dog owners are people that can't construct decent relationships with people so they buy something they can dominate and which doesn't require emotional effort


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Hanlou said:


> I apologise if this has already been mentioned but I was very upset to see some of the comments on the BBC news report on their website in response to all of this.
> 
> So many ignorant comments. People suggesting _all_ dogs of all breeds should be muzzled at all times when outside their home!
> 
> I couldn't read them all as the negative and anti-bull breed comments far outweighed any sensible responses.


I'm afraid those comments on websites after this sort of incident make me so mad I just have to say something. I read one the other day where the woman said that her dog had been in a fight with another dog and now she was afraid that because he had had a taste of blood, he would have to be muzzled. Silly cow should not be allowed to own a dog.

The rubbish some people spout is beyond me, it really is.



Royoyo said:


> I don't think any breeds should be banned imo certain people should be banned from owning certain breeds. The only people I see with these types of dogs who have a bad reputation are young adults (even though i'm young myself) and whilst some are lovely dogs others are worse. My friends brother use to own a pit x staffy and he was the most aggressive dog i have ever met and he basically wanted him for some sort of ego boost or to make people fear him? This dog was 3 years old and had already had 7 different owners because they couldn't handle him or because they were worried they would get caught with him as he was illegal and he ended up handing him over to somebody else too! so what, that's like 9 homes? maybe even more now?. That's what i see with these types of dogs most of them are not in loving homes or looked after properly or they have no sense of security so they end up becoming aggressive and i'm not saying EVERY single person who owns one of these breeds is like that because i'm sure there's hundreds of these breeds who are just like any good natured dog you'll meet. Everyone is saying that a bull breed is just like any other dog and many dogs bite etc etc whilst i do agree but if you look at the facts, the facts are that these types of breeds have been basically the only dogs in the media for attacking kids or adults and it has made people terrified of them. My mother is terrified of staffies & Akitas, she wont go near one and that's because of the rep they have.
> 
> I think if you want to own these types of breeds their should be an age limit or a licence you have to have or maybe you should be made to take your dog to training classes to show you are a responsible owner, I don't know how they would even make anyone comply to the rules because even though pitbulls are illegal i know people who own them or pitbull X's. I don't know but something needs to be done about irresponsible owners!!


My mother was terrified of German Shepherds because the newspapers wrote that they were crossed with wolves when they first came to this country. Another misconception produced by the media. The media have no interest in attacks by any other sort of breed, only bull breeds. That is why they don't get reported.

And what are "these types of breeds"? By your reasoning, there should be restrictions on owning giant breeds like mine simply because of their size. I have had the odd ignorant person tell me they are too big for me to handle, as they walk along next to me as good as gold.

And livestock guarding dogs are becoming more popular. They may not look hard, but they can certainly be classed as a dangerous dog in the wrong hands. Oh, but wait, any dog is dangerous in the wrong hands.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I've encountered prejudice a lot with the 2 older dogs- comments that they should be 'put down before they turn' or 'those dogs are nasty breeds'  

Admittedly, Bob is always muzzled when out, as he's DA & can be funny with some men, but he's infinitely better than he was when he came to live with us. Ironically his former 'owner' wanted a status dog but couldn't cope with him & 2 young children. Why I don't know, he's an absolute gem in the house, rarely barks, has never chewed, is attentive & obedient & as long as he's had his daily mooch & a few games of fetch is happy to just sleep, snore & quietly fart the rest of the day away until his bowl gets filled.

Also been offered money & the use of eligible 'bitchez' for Bob by lurky young neds in hoodies. The disappointment when I tell them his balls were nipped off long ago is palpable


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I think a lot of people want the BSL to be in place, they want " more challenging" breeds to covered by it and stricter rules put in place because it leaves their dogs alone... The scary thing about it is, they don't realize their breed/cross breed could be next..............
> 
> Because with people like this about:
> *"Utter tosh. It's not just the owners. It's the dogs as well. If owners were the only problem, dogs wouldn't bark, smell, poop or carry disease. But they do. Dog owners are people that can't construct decent relationships with people so they buy something they can dominate and which doesn't require emotional effort*


What a load of old manure. IMO, the ones who have relationship problems are usually the people who have no empathy for animals, my dad's a good case to point, he's a dog hater & somewhat of a cold fish emotionally.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

What Causes Fatal Dog Attacks & How Can We Prevent Death by Dogs?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> All but one - I see maths isn't your strong point


 no it isn't, but aside from that, my point is the same. Those deaths barring one or two have been caused by the actions of a dog, not actually by the dog itself. If someone leapt out at a person, went 'boo' in their face and said person dropped down dead of a heart attack as a result of shock, its not the same at all as someone shooting someone dead. One is a deliberate act of harm, the other a tragic and possibly rare case which was not intended to harm. So you can't say that a dog which caused someone to fall off a bike under a truck is as dangerous as the dog which has turned and ripped someone to pieces. And personally I wouldn't count a jack Russell or chihuahua killing a baby as valid either, in all fairness it doesn't take much to kill a baby, plenty of animals could. A pug dog or cat or even a rabbit could accidentally smother one by lying on it, again a tragic accident not due to a vicious act by a dog.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> no it isn't, but aside from that, my point is the same. Those deaths barring one or two have been caused by the actions of a dog, not actually by the dog itself. If someone leapt out at a person, went 'boo' in their face and said person dropped down dead of a heart attack as a result of shock, its not the same at all as someone shooting someone dead. One is a deliberate act of harm, the other a tragic and possibly rare case which was not intended to harm. So you can't say that a dog which caused someone to fall off a bike under a truck is as dangerous as the dog which has turned and ripped someone to pieces. And personally I wouldn't count a jack Russell or chihuahua killing a baby as valid either, in all fairness it doesn't take much to kill a baby, plenty of animals could. A pug dog or cat or even a rabbit could accidentally smother one by lying on it, again a tragic accident not due to a vicious act by a dog.


 

I really don't understand your thinking , I really don't !! So a jack Russell that kills a baby doesn't count ?? A baby is different to a 14 year old ??


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Wobbles ... Do you think before you post ?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> I really don't understand your thinking , I really don't !! So a jack Russell that kills a baby doesn't count ?? A baby is different to a 14 year old ??


Don't even try & understand it Julie, some people will never get it, they say ignorance is bliss, so Wobbles must be in a state of permanent ecstasy


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Goodnight Pet Owners Community


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> I really don't understand your thinking , I really don't !! So a jack Russell that kills a baby doesn't count ?? A baby is different to a 14 year old ??


Of course it's different, it would take a hell of a lot more effort to kill a 14 yr old that could punch and kick back than a baby.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> no it isn't, but aside from that, my point is the same. Those deaths barring one or two have been caused by the actions of a dog, not actually by the dog itself. If someone leapt out at a person, went 'boo' in their face and said person dropped down dead of a heart attack as a result of shock, its not the same at all as someone shooting someone dead. One is a deliberate act of harm, the other a tragic and possibly rare case which was not intended to harm. So you can't say that a dog which caused someone to fall off a bike under a truck is as dangerous as the dog which has turned and ripped someone to pieces. And personally I wouldn't count a jack Russell or chihuahua killing a baby as valid either, in all fairness it doesn't take much to kill a baby, plenty of animals could. A pug dog or cat or even a rabbit could accidentally smother one by lying on it, again a tragic accident not due to a vicious act by a dog.


Wobble you really do begger belief! You astound me with your utter ignorance and down right stupid comments!!! This Jack Russell crushed the babies skull, the lab tore a babies legs off, but thats ok because plenty of animals could kill a baby! Seriously what is wrong with you! I'm shocked and disgusted at your utter disregard!


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Of course it's different, it would take a hell of a lot more effort to kill a 14 yr old that could punch and kick back than a baby.


to be fair that poor girl wouldn't have been much of an effort for one large powerful dog (taking bull breeds out of the equation for just one second) had a dog been determined enough , never mind 5. so your point about the baby is a moot point , really.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Wobble you really do begger belief! You astound me with your utter ignorance and down right stupid comments!!! This Jack Russell crushed the babies skull, the lab tore a babies legs off, but thats ok because plenty of animals could kill a baby! Seriously what is wrong with you! I'm shocked and disgusted at your utter disregard!


And those two dogs were obviously not safe and hopefully removed. But I was going off the assumption that any dog could be dangerous, ie a pug could be dangerous and kill a baby just by sitting on it. Technically the dog would have killed it, but not because it was dangerous, unlike ones who rip people apart.

People saying its always the owners, well if a person can be bad through and through, why can't anything else? Some people no matter how much kindness you show turn out unsociable and aggressive, so surely if a person can then so can a dog? Why is it always the owners of a killer dog that are at fault for not bringing it up properly, yet its never the parents of a murderer's fault for not doing the same? You can't be with a dog 24/7, it should be stable and trustworthy enough to leave alone for a while.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> People saying its always the owners, well if a person can be bad through and through, why can't anything else? Some people no matter how much kindness you show turn out unsociable and aggressive, so surely if a person can then so can a dog? Why is it always the owners of a killer dog that are at fault for not bringing it up properly, yet its never the parents of a murderer's fault for not doing the same? You can't be with a dog 24/7, it should be stable and trustworthy enough to leave alone for a while.


I've already addressed this on this thread and I don't feel like re-typing it.

Yes, of course dogs can be born wired wrong.
Yes, of course genetics play a role.

However, in this specific case, a woman had dogs, at least one of which she herself knew was aggressive, and did not take proper precautions. Knowing she had people in and out of the house the dog should have been crated or in a separate room behind a full door, not a gate whenever she was not home. Simple closing of a door could have prevented the whole tragedy.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> And those two dogs were obviously not safe and hopefully removed. But I was going off the assumption that any dog could be dangerous, ie a pug could be dangerous and kill a baby just by sitting on it. Technically the dog would have killed it, but not because it was dangerous, unlike ones who rip people apart.
> 
> People saying its always the owners, well if a person can be bad through and through, why can't anything else? Some people no matter how much kindness you show turn out unsociable and aggressive, so surely if a person can then so can a dog? Why is it always the owners of a killer dog that are at fault for not bringing it up properly, yet its never the parents of a murderer's fault for not doing the same? You can't be with a dog 24/7, it should be stable and trustworthy enough to leave alone for a while.


Wobble I have nothing further to say to you, you change your tack and story more often than a bloody stripper gets naked, you obviously have no logic or coherent thoughts about the subject, one minute it's the dog, then the breed now it just what ever you care to randomly throw out there! Yes bad breeding bad owners! And don't be so bloody childish humans are capable of logical thinking and know right from wrong! There fact you try to compare murderers to dogs says it all!! Not a thing more to say you've proved my point!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> And those two dogs were obviously not safe and hopefully removed. But I was going off the assumption that any dog could be dangerous, ie a pug could be dangerous and kill a baby just by sitting on it. Technically the dog would have killed it, but not because it was dangerous, unlike ones who rip people apart.


So small dogs would be more likely to just inadvertently sit on a baby & kill it, rather than intentionally rip it to pieces? Last time I checked all dogs have teeth & all dogs have the potential to bite, even the little ones



Wobbles said:


> People saying its always the owners, well if a person can be bad through and through, why can't anything else? Some people no matter how much kindness you show turn out unsociable and aggressive, so surely if a person can then so can a dog?* Why is it always the owners of a killer dog that are at fault for not bringing it up properly*, yet its never the parents of a murderer's fault for not doing the same? .


Because the vast majority of times it _is_ the fault of the owner, either they've bought a poorly bred dog from a backyard breeder or they've just been a rubbish owner in general, this particular woman in question was apparently both of these things. Dogs in that environment don't stand a chance.



Wobbles said:


> You can't be with a dog 24/7, it should be stable and trustworthy enough to leave alone for a while


& if left alone, dogs should be in a safe, secure environment, somewhere that is inaccessible to unsupervised children, especially as this dog was known by the owner to be unsuitable to be around children. Clearly these dogs weren't, or a child wouldn't have had access to them while the owner was out.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> And those two dogs were obviously not safe and hopefully removed. But I was going off the assumption that any dog could be dangerous, ie a pug could be dangerous and kill a baby just by sitting on it. Technically the dog would have killed it, but not because it was dangerous, unlike ones who rip people apart.
> 
> People saying its always the owners, well if a person can be bad through and through, why can't anything else? Some people no matter how much kindness you show turn out unsociable and aggressive, so surely if a person can then so can a dog? Why is it always the owners of a killer dog that are at fault for not bringing it up properly, yet its never the parents of a murderer's fault for not doing the same? You can't be with a dog 24/7, it should be stable and trustworthy enough to leave alone for a while.


You know something wobbles...I worry for you! ,I really do !


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Why is it always the owners of a killer dog that are at fault for not bringing it up properly, yet its never the parents of a murderer's fault for not doing the same? You can't be with a dog 24/7, it should be stable and trustworthy enough to leave alone for a while.


dogs aren't programmed like people.

some folks just have dysfunctional brains , not dysfunctional families.

some dogs just have dysfunctional owners


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> I think all dogs can be unpredictable, but I would like to meet any of the banned breeds and I still think a few more should be added list.


And how would you feel if the Briard was added to that list?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Tigerneko said:


> And how would you feel if the Briard was added to that list?


Why the hell would a briard be added? Never ever heard of one of those attacking/killing someone. Nothing wrong with the size of the dog, its the damage its likely to cause. And dogs bred to fight are going to do a sight more damage than anything else, no matter what anyone says, a toy poodle could not inflict the same injuries as a bull terrier.

And to anyone out there who feels persecuted for having a certain type of dog, that's what happens when you take on something with stigma and reputation. If I bought a rough collie I'd expect comment like "that's just like Lassie", "does he fetch help" "does he do amazing tricks" "is he super smart", because that is what the breed is known for from the media. So if you have a breed that is notoriously in the media for killing little kids and attacking people you can hardly be surprised or upset at the negative comments on it.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> *Why the hell would a briard be added? Never ever heard of one of those attacking/killing someone.* Nothing wrong with the size of the dog, its the damage its likely to cause. And dogs bred to fight are going to do a sight more damage than anything else, no matter what anyone says, a toy poodle could not inflict the same injuries as a bull terrier.


actually a briard attacked and killed an 8 year old child few years ago.

so while we are debating , we might as well have a blanket ban on all dogs as i don't think there is actually a breed out there that *hasn't* killed somebody.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

*YAAAAAAAAWWWWWWNNNNNNN*

Forgot it was the holidays- they really let the kids stay up late these days


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Why the hell would a briard be added? Never ever heard of one of those attacking/killing someone. Nothing wrong with the size of the dog, its the damage its likely to cause. And dogs bred to fight are going to do a sight more damage than anything else, no matter what anyone says, a toy poodle could not inflict the same injuries as a bull terrier.
> 
> And to anyone out there who feels persecuted for having a certain type of dog, that's what happens when you take on something with stigma and reputation. If I bought a rough collie I'd expect comment like "that's just like Lassie", "does he fetch help" "does he do amazing tricks" "is he super smart", because that is what the breed is known for from the media. *So if you have a breed that is notoriously in the media for killing little kids and attacking people you can hardly be surprised or upset at the negative comments on it.*


Dude, by that logic I should get the Daily Mail to run a story on you that's 90% fabrication and speculation and tell you "hey, don't be upset, you should expect it if you choose to act like an imbecile on a public forum."


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Why the hell would a briard be added? Never ever heard of one of those attacking/killing someone.


Briards must have similar drive to American bulldogs - they're both used for Schutzhund...if they were no good at bitework, they wouldn't be used.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> And to anyone out there who feels persecuted for having a certain type of dog, that's what happens when you take on something with stigma and reputation.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

It's definitely not always the owners fault, we've seen on here a couple of examples of good owners trying everything with their bull breed but eventually having to resort to pts as nothing worked. I had a Staff (one of many) twenty years ago whose behaviour just could not be fixed. Behaviourists, training, chemical castration then neutering but nothing changed him. Had him from a pup I had bought from a decent breeder and his siblings were fine but he had serious issues. Was it my fault as his owner? I doubt it because I've had no other dog like him and all treated the same. Eventually after two years I had him pts on vets advice who had helped me work with him. 

Although its not always the owners fault on this very sad occasion I think its safe to say it was. How anyone could expect to own multiple dogs and never even take them out for exercise is beyond me. The pent up energy any dog will have if treated like that must be immense, its no wonder they had aggression issues. 
I believe it was four of her dogs that caused the damage, the fifth being a Shih Tzu that was in another room. I just hope she is banned from keeping any more dogs now because she obviously didn't see danger when it was staring her in the face!


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

It is a very tragic event, that a young girl loses her life through the sheer stupidy and ignorance of a woman who owns 5 dogs and clearly knows nothing about keeping dogs, because according to the media, she admits the bull terrier was aggressive and didn't like children, so why the hell didn't she do something about his aggressiveness, before this awful event.

*Taken from a report:-*Animal psychologist Roger Mugford, who founded the UK-based Training and Behaviour Centre, which works with problem dogs, echoes that view.

"Everything is down to the owner," he told CNN. "Owners know if their dog is a hazard or is not friendly."

In a home with several dogs, the animals could be expected to behave as a group in a territorial way, he said. "So a stranger going into a home with five dogs would be seen as a threat, someone to be challenged or even attacked."

Once one dog attacks, the others are likely to join in, and self-defense becomes almost impossible, he added.

It&#146;s not the breed involved, but how the animal has been trained that counts, although bigger dogs can inflict more harm if they become aggressive.

"It's a fallacy that one breed is more dangerous than another," he said. "Everyone has prejudices ... but the willingness to bite is probably the same, on average, in a bichon frise as in a Great Dane."

Mugford recommends that owners take action as soon as they spot any warning signs -- by going to a dog trainer or qualified behaviorist, asking a veterinarian for advice or investing in a muzzle.

"If you have a big dog, or several big dogs, it's pretty obvious that you must take it very seriously indeed," he said. "Assume that the worst can or might happen."

The laws in Britain are sufficient to protect people if they are enforced, he said. "But more than anything, we need common sense -- punishment after the act is not the solution, we need behavior that anticipates problems."

Pit bull issue
The debate over dangerous dogs is also heated in the United States, where the Humane Society has been campaigning against a Maryland Court of Appeals ruling in August that pit bull terriers are "inherently dangerous."
Under the ruling, dog owners and their landlords are responsible for any injuries caused by pit bulls.

The Humane Society says it's wrong to discriminate by breed.
"Singling out a particular breed or type of dog has repeatedly been proven to be ineffective at curbing dog bites because breed alone is not predictive of whether a dog may pose a danger," its website says.

"A dog's propensity to bite is a product of several factors primarily under the owner's control, including early socialization, whether the dog is spayed or neutered and whether the dog is isolated or chained."


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Malmum said:


> It's definitely not always the owners fault, we've seen on here a couple of examples of good owners trying everything with their bull breed but eventually having to resort to pts as nothing worked. I had a Staff (one of many) twenty years ago whose behaviour just could not be fixed. Behaviourists, training, chemical castration then neutering but nothing changed him. Had him from a pup I had bought from a decent breeder and his siblings were fine but he had serious issues. Was it my fault as his owner? I doubt it because I've had no other dog like him and all treated the same. Eventually after two years I had him pts on vets advice who had helped me work with him.
> 
> Although its not always the owners fault on this very sad occasion I think its safe to say it was. How anyone could expect to own multiple dogs and never even take them out for exercise is beyond me. The pent up energy any dog will have if treated like that must be immense, its no wonder they had aggression issues.
> I believe *it was four of her dogs that caused the damage, the fifth being a Shih Tzu* that was in another room. I just hope she is banned from keeping any more dogs now because she obviously didn't see danger when it was staring her in the face!


Funny how despite pack mentality, the little shih tzu which is a companion dog, didn't join in with the _fighting breeds_ isn't it?


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Funny how despite pack mentality, the little shih tzu which is a companion dog, didn't join in with the _fighting breeds_ isn't it?


It was in another room - if you'd highlighted the next few words, maybe you'd have noticed that?


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

mummyschnauzer said:


> It is a very tragic event, that a young girl loses her life through the sheer stupidy and ignorance of a woman who owns 5 dogs and clearly knows nothing about keeping dogs, because according to the media, she admits the bull terrier was aggressive and didn't like children, so why the hell didn't she do something about his aggressiveness, before this awful event.


3 of the dogs were said to be aggressive , not really surprising when you take into consideration the breeds involved and the situation they were forced into living in , many , many moons ago when i embarked on my ''english mastiff'' journey , i were told , never to keep two males together , i were told the same about bullmastiffs - that advice still stands should you ever approach someone knowledgeable with those breeds , i know folks with multiple american bulldogs that cannot be kept together for the same reasons crates are in place and dogs are switched on a regular basis for stimulation - it isn't a way i'd personally choose to live but i do understand and do ''get'' why people do.

seems like the 3 aggressive dogs were lumped together and it was expected they'd all live together and get along , this wasn't a knowledgeable person with these breeds , it was an owner quite frankly who couldn't care less , unless you had £200 to part with , aside from the bullmastiff , i'd say the ambull and the staffs (which they were known to be) were nothing more than a money making venture , owned by someone with no standards , couldn't give a fig about her dogs , or what they were producing , definitely someone displaying all the signs of a backyard breeder , boasting about how ''funny'' her dogs could be - yet breeds them anywayut: sounds like an upstanding member of the community don't she?:cursing:


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Funny how despite pack mentality, the little shih tzu which is a companion dog, didn't join in with the _fighting breeds_ isn't it?


what ''fighting'' breeds would they be then? do entertain me , i could do with a laugh.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

OMG Wobbles... 

Maybe just, in as few words as possible, just tell us what your point is.

Because right now the only thing you are succeeding in getting across is that you are totally clueless with no intention of remedying that state.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

For what it's worth the only dog to ever bite me hard enough to draw blood or leave a scar was a Pekingese, so being a companion dog means not a lot to me.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Nagini said:


> 3 of the dogs were said to be aggressive , not really surprising when you take into consideration the breeds involved and the situation they were forced into living in , many , many moons ago when i embarked on my ''english mastiff'' journey , i were told , never to keep two males together , i were told the same about bullmastiffs - that advice still stands should you ever approach someone knowledgeable with those breeds , i know folks with multiple american bulldogs that cannot be kept together for the same reasons crates are in place and dogs are switched on a regular basis for stimulation - it isn't a way i'd personally choose to live but i do understand and do ''get'' why people do.
> 
> seems like the 3 aggressive dogs were lumped together and it was expected they'd all live together and get along , this wasn't a knowledgeable person with these breeds , it was an owner quite frankly who couldn't care less , unless you had £200 to part with , aside from the bullmastiff , i'd say the ambull and the staffs (which they were known to be) were nothing more than a money making venture , owned by someone with no standards , couldn't give a fig about her dogs , or what they were producing , definitely someone displaying all the signs of a backyard breeder , boasting about how ''funny'' her dogs could be - yet breeds them anywayut: sounds like an upstanding member of the community don't she?:cursing:


Would you not find it worrying that these breeds are so unstable you have to crate them apart from each other? I know I would as would many many others. Since when is that sort of behaviour acceptable or normal? I knew a woman with a Alsatian, this dog was so awful she couldn't pass someone on the road with it. If she saw you, she had to go back as as far as possible and around a corner trying to shield the dog's eyes. She couldn't enjoy her walk like a normal owner because she always had to be on the lookout that god forbid another human was walking along, and that if there was, that her out of control charge didn't pull free and attack. That to me is not an enjoyable pet dog, that is hard work and stressful in the extreme. The point of a pet dog is to bring joy and happiness to its owner, so why oh why would someone willingly want something that constantly sets your nerves on edge and that you can never relax around? What "enjoyment" is there in something like that?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Will someone tell the unstable lady there is no such breed as an Alsatian or is this a new fighting breed, status breed, breed bred to be people aggressive, breed bred to be dog/animal aggressive? ut:


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Will someone tell the unstable lady there is no such breed as an Alsatian or is this a new fighting breed, status breed, breed bred to be people aggressive, breed bred to be dog/animal aggressive? ut:


What? Course there's such a breed as an Alsatian, ain't you ever heard of Rin Tin Tin? And coppers use them too as police dogs.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> Would you not find it worrying that these breeds are so unstable you have to crate them apart from each other?


It's got nothing to do with the breeds.... people often don't recommend keeping same sex pairs of most breeds of dog - a LOT of dogs are same sex aggressive no matter what breed they are, especially if they are entire or stud dogs used for breeding. Or brought up in a negative environment or actively encouraged to be aggressive, as it sounds very much like those dogs were.

Same sex aggression is a general animal thing, it doesn't mean the animal is 'unstable', just that it is acting upon its instincts.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

My dog was nearly attacked by a greyhound today - his owner told me he's massively dog aggressive, I'd imagine it is very stressful... But I'm not sure what the relevance is?


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Would you not find it worrying that these breeds are so unstable you have to crate them apart from each other? I know I would as would many many others. Since when is that sort of behaviour acceptable or normal? *I knew a woman with a Alsatian, this dog was so awful she couldn't pass someone on the road with it. If she saw you, she had to go back as as far as possible and around a corner trying to shield the dog's eyes. She couldn't enjoy her walk like a normal owner because she always had to be on the lookout that god forbid another human was walking along, and that if there was, that her out of control charge didn't pull free and attack.* That to me is not an enjoyable pet dog, that is hard work and stressful in the extreme. The point of a pet dog is to bring joy and happiness to its owner, so why oh why would someone willingly want something that constantly sets your nerves on edge and that you can never relax around? What "enjoyment" is there in something like that?


Thank god you didn't adopt my cute fluffy griff in my profile pic :laugh: Maybe if that women had treat trained she might have helped the dogs aggression issues rather than aggravating it further. 
Not all dogs come as cute puppies with a bow on  but that does mean they can't become loving family pets. Sad a little bit of training puts people off and that people think a cutesy puppy is the only way to go. 
Sadly this is why there are so many dogs in shelters.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Would you not find it worrying that these breeds are so unstable you have to crate them apart from each other? I know I would as would many many others. Since when is that sort of behaviour acceptable or normal? I knew a woman with a Alsatian, this dog was so awful she couldn't pass someone on the road with it. If she saw you, she had to go back as as far as possible and around a corner trying to shield the dog's eyes. She couldn't enjoy her walk like a normal owner because she always had to be on the lookout that god forbid another human was walking along, and that if there was, that her out of control charge didn't pull free and attack. That to me is not an enjoyable pet dog, that is hard work and stressful in the extreme. The point of a pet dog is to bring joy and happiness to its owner, so why oh why would someone willingly want something that constantly sets your nerves on edge and that you can never relax around? What "enjoyment" is there in something like that?


because they are breeds that don't mix well together , it's accepted and considered perfectly normal , it's even written within some breeds , breed standards they don't get along with other dogs - dog to dog aggression and people aggression don't go hand in hand - a dog could attack and kill another dog , yet can still love and be perfectly safe around people - why do you find this so hard to grasp or understand?
people on here keep dogs like this and manage them perfectly well , i don't see their nerves on edge and their dogs are still a joy to them , loved and well cared for.
i don't find it worrying at all because it's a genetic trait that some breeds just have , it doesn't make a dog a people killer.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Nagini said:


> because they are breeds that don't mix well together , it's accepted and considered perfectly normal , it's even written within some breeds , breed standards they don't get along with other dogs - dog to dog aggression and people aggression don't go hand in hand - a dog could attack and kill another dog , yet can still love and be perfectly safe around people - why do you find this so hard to grasp or understand?
> people on here keep dogs like this and manage them perfectly well , i don't see their nerves on edge and their dogs are still a joy to them , loved and well cared for.
> i don't find it worrying at all because it's a genetic trait that some breeds just have , it doesn't make a dog a people killer.


Well I think I'd be pretty on edge and fed up if I had to backtrack 100 yards down the road to hide around a corner when someone was coming because my dog was a nut job and not safe. Sure the walks would be a real relaxing barrel of laughs. The dog pulling is bad enough to completely ruin your walk. And I'm still bemused by someone who hasn't heard of an Alsatian, how could you not have? Like saying you don't know what a labradoror or Dalmatian is.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> Well I think I'd be pretty on edge and fed up if I had to backtrack 100 yards down the road to hide around a corner when someone was coming because my dog was a nut job and not safe. Sure the walks would be a real relaxing barrel of laughs. The dog pulling is bad enough to completely ruin your walk. And I'm still bemused by someone who hasn't heard of an Alsatian, how could you not have? Like saying you don't know what a labradoror or Dalmatian is.


I think there's only one unsafe nut job around here ut: ut: ut:


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Well I think I'd be pretty on edge and fed up if I had to backtrack 100 yards down the road to hide around a corner when someone was coming because my dog was a nut job and not safe. Sure the walks would be a real relaxing barrel of laughs. The dog pulling is bad enough to completely ruin your walk. And I'm still bemused by someone who hasn't heard of an Alsatian, how could you not have? Like saying you don't know what a labradoror or Dalmatian is.


Everyone who goes on WYWO thread stop right now :laugh: our dogs are all unsafe nut jobs and we are wasting our time because our furry friends are too stressful and might ruin a walk. 
Heck while we are at it might as well forget about addicts, offender and anyone with a mental health issues because they are all lost causes. 
Sack everyone who works in rehab and all behaviourists we're all wasting our time.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> a dog could attack and kill another dog , yet can still love and be perfectly safe around people


Why is that okay?

Please don't deliberately breed and/or create dog killing dogs either.

As I said earlier in the thread, I do get concerned sometimes, not for myself, for my dog.  I'm quite surprised that in this thread some people appear to think it's okay if a dog is dog aggressive, so long as he doesn't attack people. No wonder people are concerned about some breeds if people say a breed trait is to attack other dogs. 

Reading Ouesi's post about how pit bulls have to be gentle with people so that they can pulled out of the pit when they're fighting without redirecting isn't actually very reassuring at all. 

How do I know if a dog with DA as a breed trait isn't about to kill or maim my dog, or my daughter's little Min Pin who wouldn't stand a chance?

Tbh this thread is making it sound as though many more dogs should be muzzled and leashed before they pile in and kill each other, or be killed, or accidentally bite someone trying to stop them. 

Sorry, but trying to reassure me that your dog's okay, he won't bite me just my dog, doesn't help. ut:

Fortunately, I know enough different dogs of all kinds of breeds that are absolutely fine with my dog and my daughter's min pin to not really believe that every dog we meet is hell bent on destruction or to want all dogs leashed and muzzled. I just apply normal precautions when meeting and greeting, but honestly.. 

My dog's skin is as important to me as my own.


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

Tigerneko said:


> I think there's only one unsafe nut job around here ut: ut: ut:


I really can't believe people are personally attacking people for stating their opinion on a breed of dog!, I think your comment is pretty rude. To be honest a human life is much more precious than a dogs life, if a dog is aggressive or a certain breed of dog are deemed aggressive then so be it. I don't see what all the fuss is about to be honest, no one has said staffies are going to be made illegal or whatever and if they do bring in laws to own certain types of dogs then so be it! if you love them that much then i'm sure all the people here wont have a problem with sticking within them laws. This thread is getting ridiculous.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> What? Course there's such a breed as an Alsatian, ain't you ever heard of Rin Tin Tin? And coppers use them too as police dogs.


They call them German shepherds now... have done for, oh, about forty years. In the UK that is. Elsewhere they have _always_ been known as German shepherds.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Some breeds are dog anti social and need socialising much more than others when young, its called a breed trait just as a high prey drive is. When you own a dog with that potential its your responsibility to keep OTHER DOGS SAFE around yours. The trouble is if you deny that breed trait you are asking for trouble and being damned inconsiderate to other dogs. Mals can be dog anti social as can Dobes, even read recently that Danes have been known to be too, so this potential - no matter how small - has to be heeded and not denied. I have yet to see a Dobe round here being walked off lead in the street and to my knowledge there are three that I see, in my street there are two other Mals, always on lead. In fact all the dogs in my street are walked on lead bar one - the Staffy that attacked Flynn and its still walked off lead. Again another example if owner incompetence and ignorance. 

Breed traits are one thing, its managing them that matters and if a law is passed where ALL dogs have to be walked on lead I for one will be ecstatic and hopefully all of our dogs will be safer. Just because a dog won't attack a person is no justification for it attacking a dog - what kind of reasoning makes that acceptable? 

Personally I'd like to see dogs that don't attack either and if there's a slightest risk it may then it should be muzzled or at the very least on a SECURE collar and lead. 

I saw a guy today with his Staffie muzzled and on a lead and thought what a refreshing sight to see a responsible owner who accepts his dogs issues and deals with them accordingly.


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## Pixieandbow (Feb 27, 2013)

Malmum said:


> Some breeds are dog anti social and need socialising much more than others when young, its called a breed trait just as a high prey drive is. When you own a dog with that potential its your responsibility to keep OTHER DOGS SAFE around yours. The trouble is if you deny that breed trait you are asking for trouble and being damned inconsiderate to other dogs. Mals can be dog anti social as can Dobes, even read recently that Danes have been known to be too, so this potential - no matter how small - has to be heeded and not denied. I have yet to see a Dobe round here being walked off lead in the street and to my knowledge there are three that I see, in my street there are two other Mals, always on lead. In fact all the dogs in my street are walked on lead bar one - the Staffy that attacked Flynn and its still walked off lead. Again another example if owner incompetence and ignorance.
> 
> Breed traits are one thing, its managing them that matters and if a law is passed where ALL dogs have to be walked on lead I for one will be ecstatic and hopefully all of our dogs will be safer. Just because a dog won't attack a person is no justification for it attacking a dog - what kind of reasoning makes that acceptable?
> 
> ...


This is why my grey is walked muzzled and on a lead. He has shown no sign of being dog aggressive BUT if he wasn't muzzled and a little furry dog ran up to him and he went for it HE would be blamed (not the person who allowed their little furry thing to run up to a dog who spent his whole life being trained to chase small furry things AND was bred for this). So in order to protect other dogs who belong to possibly irresponsible (or ignorant of the dangers) owners my dog is muzzled.

Unfortunately the downside of this is that people assume he's aggressive to anything and everything. He really isn't, he's a lovely gentle boy


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> Would you not find it worrying that these breeds are so unstable you have to crate them apart from each other? I know I would as would many many others. Since when is that sort of behaviour acceptable or normal? I knew a woman with a Alsatian, this dog was so awful she couldn't pass someone on the road with it. If she saw you, she had to go back as as far as possible and around a corner trying to shield the dog's eyes. She couldn't enjoy her walk like a normal owner because she always had to be on the lookout that god forbid another human was walking along, and that if there was, that her out of control charge didn't pull free and attack. That to me is not an enjoyable pet dog, that is hard work and stressful in the extreme. The point of a pet dog is to bring joy and happiness to its owner, so why oh why would someone willingly want something that constantly sets your nerves on edge and that you can never relax around? What "enjoyment" is there in something like that?


There are many, many species where males cannot be kept together, not just dogs, nor certain breeds of dogs. Stallions spring to mind and even male rabbits will fight if kept together unneutered. There are many dog walkers and dog sitters who refuse to take entire dogs for that very reason.

Some breeds are more prone to same sex aggression than others, which is a fact people should know when they acquire that particular breed. I know of someone who has four entire bull mastiffs who all spend most of their time in crates because she is not strong enough to walk them and they will fight if left together. She won't have them neutered because she wants to show them. In my opinion, if we had a proper animal police force, there to protect animals, those dogs would not be allowed to suffer for her hobby.



Wobbles said:


> What? Course there's such a breed as an Alsatian, ain't you ever heard of Rin Tin Tin? And coppers use them too as police dogs.


Alsatians are now called German Shepherds, which is their proper name and enthusiasts do not like the name Alsatian. Some people still use it though, though not usually people who own one.



Wobbles said:


> Well I think I'd be pretty on edge and fed up if I had to backtrack 100 yards down the road to hide around a corner when someone was coming because my dog was a nut job and not safe. Sure the walks would be a real relaxing barrel of laughs. The dog pulling is bad enough to completely ruin your walk. And I'm still bemused by someone who hasn't heard of an Alsatian, how could you not have? Like saying you don't know what a labradoror or Dalmatian is.


If this poor dog had been trained properly then it would not have been like this in the first place. Possibly it once took a dislike to one dog and lunged at it, so the woman went the other way thereafter instead of working on the problem. The result of that is that the dog expects trouble; owner is nervouse so dog is nervous and attacks first. I once came across a woman with a labrador who approached me and Ferdie then said she would go back the other way. I persuaded her that there was absolutely no need and all she would do was make her dog nervous. Of course the dogs were fine.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> What Causes Fatal Dog Attacks & How Can We Prevent Death by Dogs?


FANATASTIC article ! by a canine expert also i noted...ADVISING PRESENCE OF OWNERS where dogs are concerned for OTHERS SAFETY needs ! as the KC recommends ! and i see a love of refuting that advice by SOME people here saying they are happy to leave their dogs safely alone with kids to ! LOL ! just takes a GENERAL trying to PROTECT GENERALLY official statement to be made that restricts yes the freedom of choice that in reality exists for some people to OPPOSE it with FACTS and STATISTICS to support their anti view on that recommendation !

that to me i am going to DARE as i rarely can be bothered or feel justified even to do...BASH THOSE THAT TAKE THE OPPOSITE LINE on this point ! STOP SAYING MY DOGS OTHERS DOGS ARE FINE ALONE WITH STRANGERS KIDS ESPECIALLY just because YOUR nice dogs have been to date ! THAT IS VERY UNHELPFUL and gives DOG OWNERS A BAD IMAGE !

sod it but here we see rants about people having BAD IMAGES given to beloved specified breeds...And yet it seems perfectly ok to give DOG OWNERS a BAD IMAGE in GENERAL by saying IT IS OK TO NOT FOLLOW SENSIBLE KC ADVICE ABOUT SUPERVISION OF DOGS WITH KIDS !

just LOOK at that statement RANT of mine yes ! i am FURIOUS when on THIS POINT ALONE used as an example PEOPLE HERE THAT SHOULD KNOW BETTER ABOUT IMAGE OF DOG OWNERS OPPOSE SENSIBLE GENERAL VIEWS ADVICE OF KC NOTHING EVEN TO DO WITH LAWS TO ENFORCE THAT ADVICE !

no WONDER we end up with OFFICIAL LAWS hey ! when ADVICE like that cant be accepted by DOG OWNERS THEMSELVES !

and repeatedly said what i and others and the KC advise is due to yes BLATANT EVIDENCe that ABSENCE OF OWNERS of dogs is the lost LIKELY reason or circumstance that DOG KILLS or ATTACK in ! he gave excellent examples ! of SEVERE cases not just the 500 000 a year total in say Fr country stats which SOME would say could be used to say THE MAJORITY of dog attacks do NOT occur if facts of all were known when owners of dogs are absent in ! i suggest the presence of owners in the majority bite cases stat given were present to avoid FURTHER serious damage and JADE would very likely be alive HAD THE OWNER ADULT BEEN PRESENT when she was attacked !

I end my RANT yes....TRYING TO PROTECT KIDS AND EVEN DOGS IN GENERAL from STUPID ATTITUDES like this one ! and STUPID is to me a GENTLE term i use ! i and others more emotional than me could find STRONGER words to describe such attitudes or even people !

End of My rant. EDUCATION he said additionally in that article...well i do add to sigh adddress the owners of breeds i admit i dont know much about called here new to me term BULL BREEDS i would not recognise if i saw them i admit...i only know the word PITBULL that seem varied in looks from what their owners told me they were...I ADD that if you think you can EDUCATE the public with PREJUDICES yes that seem to exist out there i am surprised to read examples of here but interesting ....then ok, EDUCATE and sHOW examples in SCHOOLS by visits with the dogs SOMETHING yes ! but DO NOT EXPECT the entire public to not have PREJUDICES or even the majority of NON DOG OWNERS ! they dont have TIME or INTEREST enough as obviously dog owners like us have to do that. THERE ARE HUGE NUMBERS OF NON DOG OWNERS OUT THERE !

ps i let my dogs OFF LEAD last NIGHT in the DARK yes to avoid people reporting an ILLEGAL here activity with a ROTT TYPE BREEDS also loose i add ! no fights took place but i am not suggesting that what I do is what is the LAW here or argue against it because it prevents OTHER people with dogs that DO follow the law out of fear of punishment to avoid more bites or fear generally of dogs in people out there ! he told me that a man aggressed him verbally recenly for having his dogs off leads yes ! so we GO OUT IN THE DARK ! that is what it has come to for GENERAL DOG OWNERS ! i add we were were in a field no one nearby at all except some circus animals....no my dogs didnt rush off to chase them i can control them for that but MANY CANT and i am not CERTAIN they would NEVER run after them but hey I WOULD BE IN SERIOUS FINANCIAL DIFFICULTIES and even in PRISON if they did ! so i take that risk and try EDUCATION of my dogs as best my AMATEUR SELF can !

ppss out of FEAR anyone could REPORT me i add THAT LAND FIELD IS PRIVATE PROPERTY ! NOT A PUBLIC PARK ! or yes we would have been BREAKING THE LAW but it is unfenced.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Would you not find it worrying that these breeds are so unstable you have to crate them apart from each other? I know I would as would many many others. Since when is that sort of behaviour acceptable or normal? I knew a woman with a Alsatian, this dog was so awful she couldn't pass someone on the road with it. If she saw you, she had to go back as as far as possible and around a corner trying to shield the dog's eyes. She couldn't enjoy her walk like a normal owner because she always had to be on the lookout that god forbid another human was walking along, and that if there was, that her out of control charge didn't pull free and attack. That to me is not an enjoyable pet dog, that is hard work and stressful in the extreme. The point of a pet dog is to bring joy and happiness to its owner, so why oh why would someone willingly want something that constantly sets your nerves on edge and that you can never relax around? What "enjoyment" is there in something like that?


There are owners on here who keep dogs under one roof that do not get on with each other. It is there choice to do so. They manage the situation by systems by which the dogs are not put in together.Is this stressful for them- probably very much so. Is it up to them to do so. very much so.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> OMG Wobbles...
> 
> Maybe just, in as few words as possible, just tell us what your point is.


Troll comes to mind.

When it comes down to it studies have shown their "fighting breeds" are no more aggressive than any other dog breed. Studies and experience have demonstrated time and again breed bans don't work yet apparently they are still the miracle answer.. go figure. I do wonder if they can back their points up with actual facts.

Then there's you should believe media.. well according to certain media Kim Jong-il (North Korean deceased leader) shot, on his first try at golf, 11 holes-in-one on a normal 18-hole golf course. We should never question media and what they tell us


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> People saying its always the owners, *well if a person can be bad through and through, why can't anything else?* Some people no matter how much kindness you show turn out unsociable and aggressive, so surely if a person can then so can a dog? Why is it always the owners of a killer dog that are at fault for not bringing it up properly, yet its never the parents of a murderer's fault for not doing the same? You can't be with a dog 24/7, it should be stable and trustworthy enough to leave alone for a while.


I have yet to full catch up with last nights events on this thread, but could not read anymore until I had replied to this!

People are not 'bad through and through' anymore than dogs are. I don't even know where to begin to explain what is wrong with this sentence... I suppose to start with, define 'bad'?? Because philosophers for many many years have attempted to define definitively 'good' and 'bad', and have failed. Nobody agrees on what these words mean. They are a subjective term. So, before we even get to the science of human beings, this sentence is inaccurate.

Secondly, have you heard of the little debate referred to as 'nurture or nature'? (in other words, the debate concerning the cause of how humans being who they are, nature meaning our genes, nurture our environment?). Extremely intelligent people have discussed, researched, and considered this question. Long ago, some thought it was all in the genes, while others thought we were born blank slates. However, this debate lost it's fuel somewhat with advancements in science, when it became painfully clear that, as Matt Ridely puts it, it is neither one nor the other, but _nature via nurture_ - meaning that both our genes and our environment interact with one and other so intrinsically that it is impossible to separate the two.

Hence, you comment that people are 'born bad through and through' is inaccurate on all levels.

Just as it is with dogs.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Will someone tell the unstable lady there is no such breed as an Alsatian or is this a new fighting breed, status breed, breed bred to be people aggressive, breed bred to be dog/animal aggressive? ut:


And that a Bull Terrier is a breed of dog on its own..the type I have!!! Staffordshire bull terrier is a breed, American bulldog is a breed..!!.....* off to bang head on wall again *


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Here if anyone is interested is the list of DOGS ON DANGEROUS LIST category of France...relevant as i read some here are saying the lists of GB may be added to...not that i admit knowing even that list i say !

*CATEGORY 1

ATTACK DOGS.*

law is CASTRATION/STERILISATION OF ALL SUCH BREEDS.

LICENCE AND TRAINING DIPLOMA for owners. REGISTRATION WITH LOCAL COUNCIL. RABIES VACCIN OBLIGATORY. ON LEAD AND MUZZLED in public at all times. and a few other bans.

LENGTH of the lead matters even, short to not get specific sigh.

NO BREEDING ALLOWED.

American Staffordshire Terrier mongrel
Staffordshire Terrier mongrel
Tosa mongrel
Mastiff or so called Boerbull mongrel

MONGRELS ! yes APPEARANCE matters...MONGRELS OF THAT BREED !

dare i say HOW RACIST ??? LOL

*CATEGORY 2.

DEFENSE DOGS*

law is LICENCE AND TRAINING DIPLOMA for owners. REGISTRATION WITH LOCAL COUNCIL. RABIES VACCIN OBLIGATORY. ON LEAD AND MUZZLED in public at all times.

Rottweiler
American Staffordshire Terrier
Staffordshire Terrier
Tosa

PEDIGREES of those breeds

....................

I add, to add more SEVERE laws for MONGRELS in case people think only PEDIGREE dogs are affected hey !

ANY MONGREL looking dog crossbred of the breeds in category 2 is considered CATEGORY 1 so mongrels will be STERILISED CASTRATED and subject to what is generally regarded in these cases as a PITBULL

............

so when i meet those saying their dog is a PITBULL it is according to the definition of that under French law which means it could be a MONGREL ROTT not just a BOERBULL whatever that is...i dont know the breeds to recognise them i add ! being IGNORANT so not about to kick off at anyone in the streets to yell at them ! maybe i should take more interest ! but i didnt so far !

Some IGNORANT even in the local council here people of the breeds even ended up with ME having a PERMIT TO HOLD DANGEROUS BREED dog ! yes ! i went in there IGNORANT after buying a pup BELGIAN SHEPHERD after reading BELGIUM was thinking of making that breed CATEGORY due to problems with its image and accidents with that breed...and I ENDED UP PAYING FOR A COURSE TO GET A DIPLOMA due to yes IGNORANCe even of those getting the money for such licences ! lol !!! do share that laugh ! 

did i go back in there to EDUCATE them ? YES ! i take my dogs in there regularly ! they even stroke them but they DIDNT KNOW when i first went in there looking at my pup what she was ! i didnt yell at them no...didnt say they were idiots or anyting even after it cost me to get a dangerous dog diploma ! and Belgian Shepherds do have a bad IMAGE with enough numbers of people for BELGIUM to have been discussing putting them in a category !


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Elles said:


> Why is that okay?
> 
> Please don't deliberately breed and/or create dog killing dogs either.
> 
> ...


HILARIOUS ! 

i agree totally ! saying there are breeds that are ok around people but not other dogs is NOT very reassuring !!! hilarious !

i am enjoying the reads...


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Elles said:


> Reading Ouesi's post about how pit bulls have to be gentle with people so that they can pulled out of the pit when they're fighting without redirecting isn't actually very reassuring at all.
> 
> How do I know if a dog with DA as a breed trait isn't about to kill or maim my dog, or my daughter's little Min Pin who wouldn't stand a chance?
> 
> ...


I don't want to speak for Ouesi, but that is not how I read the post, nor similar posts, at all. That was only said in response to the inaccurate statement that 'these "fighting" dogs are aggressive towards humans'. If somebody says that, then pointing out that, unlike Labs, or jack russels etc etc, these "fighting" dogs are actually inherently less likely to bite a human because of what they were breed for, is a perfectly reasonable point, and not the same as saying 'therefore they'll only bite your dog so that's ok'. The fact that they were once breed for this purpose does not mean that they will automatically be dog aggressive. The dogs originally bred from, were also _trained_ to be fighting dogs. You can take any dog and train it to do this. If you do not train a dog in this way, and you socialise and treate them well, there is absolutely no reason to assume that that dog will become dog aggressive.

What a dog is bred for is not the be all and end all. However, IF someone is going to start saying 'but they are fighting dogs so aggressive to humans  ', it's absolutely fair enough to say 'Umm, well actually, if we are going to go with your line of 'what they were bred for', then, the opposite of that is actually true'.

Nobody is saying that, don't worry, they won't attack you, they'll only attack your dog.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> And those two dogs were obviously not safe and hopefully removed. But I was going off the assumption that any dog could be dangerous, ie a pug could be dangerous and kill a baby just by sitting on it. Technically the dog would have killed it, but not because it was dangerous, unlike ones who rip people apart.
> 
> People saying its always the owners, well if a person can be bad through and through, why can't anything else? Some people no matter how much kindness you show turn out unsociable and aggressive, so surely if a person can then so can a dog? Why is it always the owners of a killer dog that are at fault for not bringing it up properly, yet its never the parents of a murderer's fault for not doing the same? You can't be with a dog 24/7, it should be stable and trustworthy enough to leave alone for a while.


NO TO DOGS BEING ALONE WITH KIDS ! i am not agreeing and feel that statement above saying dogs should be able to be left alone... alone interpreting that as with kids or strangers...saying dogs should be able to be left alone meaning i think with strangers or anyone particular needs contradicting strongly...

the KC has just issues its ADVICE

NO DOGS ALONE WITH KIDS without getting pedantic

i repeat that if some people have nice dogs whatever the breed and feel that advice is not a good GENERAL advise for most people then they take risks...with their own kids as they please no LAW exists currently to make that advice even remotely enforceable...But to NOT take RISKS with OTHER peoples kids to me and reading canine experts views that dogs will act differently more easily with strangers than their owners or family members is SENSIBLE and desirable.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Nagini said:


> actually a briard attacked and killed an 8 year old child few years ago.
> 
> so while we are debating , we might as well have a blanket ban on all dogs as i don't think there is actually a breed out there that *hasn't* killed somebody.


YES UNFORTUNATELY THAT IS WHAT IT MAY COME TO !

ALL dogs get a BAD IMAGE when things like this happen !

the breed specific defenders miss this point and claim only THEIR breeds get negative fallout from such events...no i agree that people increase their fears of DOGS GENERALLY due to such events


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Alice Childress said:


> I don't want to speak for Ouesi, but that is not how I read the post, nor similar posts, at all. That was only said in response to the inaccurate statement that 'these "fighting" dogs are aggressive towards humans'. If somebody says that, then pointing out that, unlike Labs, or jack russels etc etc, these "fighting" dogs are actually inherently less likely to bite a human because of what they were breed for, is a perfectly reasonable point, and not the same as saying 'therefore they'll only bite your dog so that's ok'. The fact that they were once breed for this purpose does not mean that they will automatically be dog aggressive. The dogs originally bred from, were also _trained_ to be fighting dogs. You can take any dog and train it to do this. If you do not train a dog in this way, and you socialise and treate them well, there is absolutely no reason to assume that that dog will become dog aggressive.
> 
> What a dog is bred for is not the be all and end all. However, IF someone is going to start saying 'but they are fighting dogs so aggressive to humans  ', it's absolutely fair enough to say 'Umm, well actually, if we are going to go with your line of 'what they were bred for', then, the opposite of that is actually true'.
> 
> Nobody is saying that, don't worry, they won't attack you, they'll only attack your dog.


reading the NATURE NURTURE reasonings given here where it is agreed it is not one or the other but both....

one cannot discount totally therefore logically the breed purpose being nature...and one cannot disagree that nurture can reduce the nature aspects

so where does that leave dogs selectively bred to be fight dogs ? and those with mention of being to put it mildly not too strongly of course in breed standards...not VERY good with other dogs ? meaning interpreting BAD often with other dogs ??? ok lets not exagerate NOT VERY GOOD with other dogs GENERALISATION made for SOME BREEDS of dogs...

this is not i stress MY opinion on any breed at all, nor am i naming breeds with such wording in their official dogworld standards....i dont know them...

but to give my VIEW i am thinking reading all this now that IF i read in a DOG BREED STANDARD words like that i need to TAKE MORE CARE with my dog of that breed around other dogs...and if i OWN ANOTHER BREED i NEED TO KNOW and RECOGNISE such breeds to try and avoid contact between my dog and that dog until i know that the NURTURE work has been effective !

ouf ! sigh ! that is complex to me i must admit ! i dont know even what the name of such breeds are or WHAT THE DOGS Look like ! well maybe a few...but not all of them...and i have other things on my mind walking the streets than ...WHAT IS THE BREED OF THAT DOG ?

ps i think one possible solution is BREED FOR CARACTER ! whatever the breed ! and TRAIN dogs and pass diplomas to even be allowed out on the streets with ANY DOG AT ALL...oh ja TRAIN OWNERS of COURSE ! both dogs and owners of dogs.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Royoyo said:


> I really can't believe people are personally attacking people for stating their opinion on a breed of dog!, I think your comment is pretty rude. To be honest a human life is much more precious than a dogs life, if a dog is aggressive or a certain breed of dog are deemed aggressive then so be it. I don't see what all the fuss is about to be honest, no one has said staffies are going to be made illegal or whatever and if they do bring in laws to own certain types of dogs then so be it! if you love them that much then i'm sure all the people here wont have a problem with sticking within them laws. This thread is getting ridiculous.


but that IS the fear here of named by press in the case of this attack on Jade and other such dog owners on this forum and elsewhere...

the fear is that YES dog breeds will end up on lists of dangerous dogs be subject to greater CONTROLS

so people are very SENSITIVE about that and try to explain their dogs are NOT dangerous and even the BREED

and EDUCATING us and others is needed for sure...

and I am in that category with my breed of dog ! A RISK OF BEING ON THE DANGEROUS DOG LIST in the very COUNTRY ORIGIN of my breed the Belgian shepherd !

has not come to that YET may not !

I signed petition AGAINST the DANGEROUS DOGS List in GB in fact i add

I dont CARE about SPECIFIC BREEDS myself i add i am convinced enough that ALL DOGS GET A BAD NAME when things like this tragically happpen and am for ALL CONTROLS not costing too much and fines to be added to to stop having one day muzzles on all dogs laws

and i am ANGRY that MONGRELS in the laws are so severely targeted by the laws in FR i add ...just LOOKING like a mongrel of the listed dangerous breeds is CATEGORY 1 top list ! the PEDIGREES get less severe CATEGORY 2 classification !

now that last statement is NOT i stress defending MONGRELS as dogs that should not have controls over like ALL dogs should have i add ! but yes i find it DISGRACEFUL and anti mongrels for to me NO GOOD REASON ! and snobbery of the PEDIGREE DOG CLUB people no doubt made that possible protecting THEIR PEDIGREES but not mongrels !

ps the only bits that i get angry about here to restate is when we as dog owners do NOT take seriously enough and sign up to the KC ADVICE SAYING NO DOGS ALONE WITH KIDS statement finding EXCUSES REASONS to suggest that advice is wrong ! HUMANS LIVES are at stake here ! QED JADE ! quad est demonstratum ! i know some latin not being totally uneducated but NOT a DOG EXPERT no !...and THUS IT IS PROVEN is what quad est demonstratum means...explaining...not thinking ALL know latin. what is proven ? JADE had a far greater chance of being alive if the dog owner had been there. an older ADULT. she was alone.

ppss why am i so defensive of mongrels ? i dont own one ! i dont know...just seems unfair...and maybe because I AM A MONGREL HUMAN so empathise with mongrels getting a rough ride in life often from the PEDIGREES yes.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> Isn't that what a status dog is though? A dog bred to look and act a certain way to make the idiot owner look a real hard case? Not bred to be an amenable pet, because that's not what that type of owner wants. And certain breeds do look more aggressive/intimidating than others, which is specifically what the owner wants. I've never seen a tough yob with


Contemporary dogs used for status weren't specifically bred for that purpose, they were bred to look that way to perform a function. They are simply chosen by people who wish to use them for the wrong reason, as we've developed a fear culture based on perceived reputation driven by the media and public hysteria. In 19th century America the dogs of choice with the worst reputation were bloodhounds and Newfoundlands.

What are you're conclusions about this dog?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Contemporary dogs used for status weren't specifically bred for that purpose, they were bred to look that way to perform a function. They are simply chosen by people who wish to use them for the wrong reason, as we've developed a fear culture based on perceived reputation driven by the media and public hysteria. In 19th century America the dogs of choice with the worst reputation were bloodhounds and Newfoundlands.
> 
> What are you're conclusions about this dog?


Apart from the fact that the look doesn't appeal to me, I would be wary of it. Why? Cos its a very big, solid, heavy dog, that probably weighs more than I do. There's someone around here got two, their not very nice, can't go near them and the owner can't leave them off lead in the park.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> Apart from the fact that the look doesn't appeal to me, I would be wary of it. Why? Cos its a very big, solid, heavy dog, that probably weighs more than I do.


What about this one then?










He, too, is a very big, solid, heavy dog who probably weighs more than you.

Are your feelings the same?

Or different, because the dog is fluffy and not snub nosed?


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

What are you're conclusions about this dog?







[/QUOTE]

It's ugly but i'm no beauty queen either.I'm sure its owner loves him/her very much.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> Apart from the fact that the look doesn't appeal to me, I would be wary of it. Why? Cos its a very big, solid, heavy dog, that probably weighs more than I do. There's someone around here got two, their not very nice, can't go near them and the owner can't leave them off lead in the park.


Looks cute and huggable to me. I posted that in response to your comments on the Ambull puppy I quoted before I read the following 17 pages, so probably irrelevant now.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> Contemporary dogs used for status weren't specifically bred for that purpose, they were bred to look that way to perform a function. They are simply chosen by people who wish to use them for the wrong reason, as we've developed a fear culture based on perceived reputation driven by the media and public hysteria. In 19th century America the dogs of choice with the worst reputation were bloodhounds and Newfoundlands.
> 
> What are you're conclusions about this dog?


SO EXCITED AT SEEING A DOG BREED I KNOW I HAVENT READ MORE BUT SAY I KNOW ! I KNOW !! JAJA THIS IS A DOGUE DE BORDEAUX !!! A MOLOSSE CATEGORY DOG AS WE SAY IN FRANCE !!!! I KNOW THIS DOG !!!! I HAVE SEEN THEM IN DOGSHOWS JA !!!

ooh ! A DOGUE DE BORDEAUX ! old French breed ! i see it here on a GB forum ! excuse me i will shut up now... and read on !


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I think all dogs can be unpredictable, but I would like to meet any of the banned breeds and I still think a few more should be added list.


Which breeds should be added in your opinion and why? Kilo and Rudi are obviously not on the UK banned breeds list and are fine to run free and interact within the UK. Once I cross the border (as I have done) into ROI they are on the 'Restricted Breeds' list - law states that they would have to be on strong leads or chains of no more than 2m in length, securely muzzled and walked by someone of over 16 years of age capable of controlling them.

This is the list of restricted breeds; they all have a very different heritage but do you agree that they should all be on there?

• American Pit Bull Terrier
• Bull Mastiff
• Doberman Pinscher
• English Bull Terrier
• German Shepherd ( Alsatian)
• Japanese Akita
• Japanese Tosa
• Rhodesian Ridgeback
• Rottweiler
• Staffordshire Bull Terrier
• Ban dog


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> Apart from the fact that the look doesn't appeal to me, I would be wary of it. Why? Cos its a very big, solid, heavy dog, that probably weighs more than I do. There's someone around here got two, their not very nice, can't go near them and the owner can't leave them off lead in the park.


My Ferdie is 12 stone (80 kg), three stone heavier than me. He is big and strong and very, very stubborn, but would you be scared of him? I doubt it.



FEJA JUODAS said:


> SO EXCITED AT SEEING A DOG BREED I KNOW I HAVENT READ MORE BUT SAY I KNOW ! I KNOW !! JAJA THIS IS A DOGUE DE BORDEAUX !!! A MOLOSSE CATEGORY DOG AS WE SAY IN FRANCE !!!! I KNOW THIS DOG !!!! I HAVE SEEN THEM IN DOGSHOWS JA !!!
> 
> ooh ! A DOGUE DE BORDEAUX ! old French breed ! i see it here on a GB forum ! excuse me i will shut up now... and read on !


The Dogue de Bordeaux is very popular in the UK. I see lots of them on my travels and they all play nicely with mine. On my website I have a video of my two playing with two Dogues.


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## j4nfr4n (Mar 10, 2013)

a neighbour of ours has a D de B and you can't a more laid back dog if you tried i wish my two a springer spaniel and a rough collie were as laid back


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Scary dog


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Absolutely terrifying - who'd want em!!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Firedog said:


> What are you're conclusions about this dog?


It's ugly but i'm no beauty queen either.I'm sure its owner loves him/her very much.[/QUOTE]

They're certainly not to everyone's taste. I did pass the message on to her and she decided to rip up all her Crufts rosettes in protest.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> SO EXCITED AT SEEING A DOG BREED I KNOW I HAVENT READ MORE BUT SAY I KNOW ! I KNOW !! JAJA THIS IS A DOGUE DE BORDEAUX !!! A MOLOSSE CATEGORY DOG AS WE SAY IN FRANCE !!!! I KNOW THIS DOG !!!! I HAVE SEEN THEM IN DOGSHOWS JA !!!
> 
> ooh ! A DOGUE DE BORDEAUX ! old French breed ! i see it here on a GB forum ! excuse me i will shut up now... and read on !


I own, show and judge them. Been abroad with them but not to France. There are a lot of good dogs in the UK, but there's also quite a lot of them, far less good breeders.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

SixStar said:


> What about this one then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not as fearful of him,but I still wouldn't approach him either on my own. Surely that is common sense? You wouldn't go up to a lion like you would a tabby, so why would you wander up to a strange big dog?



Snoringbear said:


> *Looks cute and huggable to me*. I posted that in response to your comments on the Ambull puppy I quoted before I read the following 17 pages, so probably irrelevant now.


That is your opinion of it. You asked for mine. We're not all the same, I think my dog looks cute and fluffy, you might think it looks frightening and horrible. That's fine, it's your opinion. Mine's fine too, as its my opinion, there are no right and wrong answers.



Dogless said:


> Which breeds should be added in your opinion and why? Kilo and Rudi are obviously not on the UK banned breeds list and are fine to run free and interact within the UK. Once I cross the border (as I have done) into ROI they are on the 'Restricted Breeds' list - law states that they would have to be on strong leads or chains of no more than 2m in length, securely muzzled and walked by someone of over 16 years of age capable of controlling them.
> 
> This is the list of restricted breeds; they all have a very different heritage but do you agree that they should all be on there?
> 
> ...


Asides from the G.S/Alsatian, I'm afraid I do. Time and time again its the same breeds that are on the news. And its the same dog aggressive breeds too. As someone else said, saying a dog is dog aggressive is not comforting at all! If my dog was being attacked, I wouldn't think properly not to try and pry it apart, and then I'd most likely get bitten or the attacking dog would turn its attention on me instead. Saying a dog is dog aggressive but it's ok as it won't attack people is not good enough! I want to be safe to walk around, but equally I want my dog to be as well. Knowing the dog in the park won't bite me but will tear my dog to shreds is not appeasing or makes the dog less of a threat in the slightest.Again, that is my personal opinion, plenty won't agree (at least on here) but you can't slate someone for having an opinion on something.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Elles said:


> Why is that okay?
> 
> Please don't deliberately breed and/or create dog killing dogs either.
> 
> ...


Elles, I do understand your concern, and frankly, in many ways I share it. Too many people end up with breeds they have no business owning. They have no clue how to train and manage them, they have some fairy world idea of what the breed is like, and they end up euthanizing a dog for basically living up to his breed standard. It's hugely frustrating.

And I'm not just talking bull breeds here. I'm talking everything from goldens to hounds to collies to giant breeds. Ugh, the number of people in great danes alone who have this idea that danes are giant labs, and then end up completely befuddled at the dog who shows prey drive and guarding instincts and think the dog is somehow defective. No, the dog is EXACTLY what you signed up for. A dog bred to hunt live game and guard estates. Not retrieve already dead ducks. There is going to be a pretty significant difference in what you select for in temperament between those two! It doesn't make danes "dangerous" dogs and labs "safe" dogs, it just means you have to be prepared for guarding instincts in a dane where with a lab that's not really a concern.

So, temperament-wise, yes, bull breeds were selected for tenacity, tons of prey drive, and in the case of the super popular APBT, biddability. If an APBT *thinks* you want him to be aggressive, he will be, because they really live to please. 
They're not bred for aggression per-se, as one breeder explained it to me, the well-bred APBT are basically adrenaline junkies. They're the dog version of the human who goes sky diving and rock climbing and is a MMA fighter or corporate take over big-wig. Not because they're aggressive, but because they live for the rush of the challenge.

AFAIK you simply can't breed for a specific type of aggression anyway (like HA or DA), just as you can't breed a dog who has prey drive for only rabbits. Those sighthounds are going to chase squirrels and the neighbor's cat too. They have prey drive, not rabbit aggression  And for many dogs with prey drive that also translates to other dogs.

I'm not saying this to say that "hey it's okay he just sees your dog as prey, not you." I'm saying this to say that a) the traits bull breeds have are not unique to bull breeds, many breeds have the same traits without the stigma, and b) to educate folks so that we can indeed better manage and train our dogs.

People may think *I* am the antisocial one, but I just don't trust other owners to know how to manage their dogs. My dogs will not interact with dogs they don't know period. I don't know you or your dogs? My dogs will not be interacting. I don't care what the breed. I see another dog coming, I will shoo it away. That doesn't work, I will up the ante, but no, your loose dog is not coming up to mine for a sniff I don't care how much you shout "he's friendly" at me. 
My dogs know the drill, they have never been allowed to interact with strange dogs and as far as I can tell they have no interest in interacting with them either. If they were feral they wouldn't be running up to every dog they see saying "Oh HAI! Look! A friend!!" No, they would ignore each other!

I don't know that I necessarily want to see more dogs leashed and muzzled, but I would like to see more dogs controlled. I'd much rather see an off leash dog who ignores other dogs than an on leash dog who's freaking out barking and squawking because OMG he saw another dog!!



Wobbles said:


> Would you not find it worrying that these breeds are so unstable you have to crate them apart from each other?


In the case of the dogs who killed poor Jade Anderson, yes, I find a lot about how they were bred and managed very worrying. However, just because a dog has to be crated when you're not around for the safety of your other pets, doesn't make him "unstable". 
Our oldest passed in January and in his twilight years we kept him separated from the other dogs whenever we were not home. Not because any of the dogs are unstable, but because he didn't move as well as them, and I didn't want him to get run over by a herd of giant dogs. I also have a dog who has exhibited predatory drift before, and if our old dog had hurt himself and yelped, it might trigger my predatory drift guy. Basically, common sense, risk assessment, and knowing your dogs.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Which breeds should be added in your opinion and why? Kilo and Rudi are obviously not on the UK banned breeds list and are fine to run free and interact within the UK. Once I cross the border (as I have done) into ROI they are on the 'Restricted Breeds' list - law states that they would have to be on strong leads or chains of no more than 2m in length, securely muzzled and walked by someone of over 16 years of age capable of controlling them.
> 
> This is the list of restricted breeds; they all have a very different heritage but do you agree that they should all be on there?
> 
> ...


I AM IN SHOCK !

had not seen this list or not paid it attention before if i had !

this is the GB list of so called DANGEROUS DOGS subject to i dunno what special restrictions ? !!!

oh my goodness ! spontaneous initial reaction is SHOCK it is so long and longer than in FRANCE who if they saw this list might add some to their list i provided here !

nothing said about MONGRELS ? Fr is very harsh on mongrels looking like the list dogs...

oh ! the ALSATION is on there ! um oh german shepherd...

hmy:

i read the regs...leads...Specified lengths...not MUZZLEs i note...FRANCE has MUZZLES for their list dogs in rules...yes GB muzzles too...excuse me...and yes same for kids not adults maybe different ages in Fr i think 18, no criminal records and pay license fee to council and have diploma of course on dogs.

well well well...with i think about 400 dogbreeds officially around we could certainly add some if popular dogs hey ! meaning the authorities...

now why is the list different to France or other countries ? must be based on numbers of dogs of that kind there evaluatted logically...those that hit the fan in serious cases...just thinking aloud...

dont see any of those lovely to me akitas much in france...oh yes i have but in DOGSHOWS only but i add with FR laws on NO dogs off leads in public thats why i go to dogshows ! never SEE dogs much on the streets !

there is a BANNEd list too in GB ? !!! ah that must be the PITBULL ...GB bans imports of those i think...or is it a TOTAL ban ? well France doesnt ban it totally just insists on CASTRATION AND STERILISATION in addition to other regs to write eventually the breed off of course.

sigh...not that the DEFINITION of a pitbull is of course the same as in France i add...MONGRELS of the dangerous dogs list can be pitbulls according to Fr law.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> It's ugly but i'm no beauty queen either.I'm sure its owner loves him/her very much.


They're certainly not to everyone's taste. I did pass the message on to her and she decided to rip up all her Crufts rosettes in protest. [/QUOTE]

Well i'm no beauty queen but it seems she is,lol.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> I'm not as fearful of him,but I still wouldn't approach him either on my own. Surely that is common sense? You wouldn't go up to a lion like you would a tabby, so why would you wander up to a strange big dog?
> 
> Asides from the G.S/Alsatian, I'm afraid I do. Time and time again its the same breeds that are on the news. And its the same dog aggressive breeds too. As someone else said, saying a dog is dog aggressive is not comforting at all! If my dog was being attacked, I wouldn't think properly not to try and pry it apart, and then I'd most likely get bitten or the attacking dog would turn its attention on me instead. Saying a dog is dog aggressive but it's ok as it won't attack people is not good enough! I want to be safe to walk around, but equally I want my dog to be as well. Knowing the dog in the park won't bite me but will tear my dog to shreds is not appeasing or makes the dog less of a threat in the slightest.Again, that is my personal opinion, plenty won't agree (at least on here) but you can't slate someone for having an opinion on something.


I wasn't suggest you approach him on your own - I was just wondering what your misconceptions were based on, and that confirms it's purely appearance  Ozzy is nearly 80 kg, and incredibly muscular and powerful - same as the DDB Snoringbear posted - both are capable of the same, but Ozzy is fluffy with softer features.

Why do you think German Shepherds shouldn't be on the list? I've certainly heard in the past of GSDs attacking people, but can't say I've heard of any Ridgeback attacks. 

I've known many, many snappy collies - plenty of DA ones too - should they be on the list? And a JRT killed a newborn baby not so long ago, what about those? My aggressive dog is a Westie, how about them? My Newfie, Neo and Berner are all incredibly large and powerful - surely they should be on there too? My Greyhound would kill anything small and fluffy - surely they're a danger?


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Absolutely terrifying - who'd want em!!


ME FIRST ! CHOW CHOW !!! yes i had one !!!then ? ouf pic not in view think nerdy feja owner....um....BLOODHOUND ! jaja ! but i PASS on the last one...looks a BIT like? ouf what is the name of it ? ouf?? ah yes

BOUVIER DE FLANDRES ??? huge dogs ! seen in dogshows and read about in stories in my childhood forget the name of the book


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

After a bad foster experience with a staffy I would never own or foster one again, however as a child we had a staffy who was wonderful. 

I never found English Bull Terriers attractive, infact the same of the head was quite off putting however way back when I had my first ever visit to crufts I met some English Bull Terriers at Discover dogs and they were amazing, by far the friendliest dogs at DD that day. I do have a soft spot for them now!

Although I don't find many bull breeds attractive, I certainly see the appeal for other people. Many have fantastic temperaments however you have to remember various things shape a dog...

Good pedigree of sound minded dogs.
Good owner who doesn't abuse nor let the dog get away with everything.
Good daily amount of walking and mental stimulation.
Correct socializing and love.

Sadly chavs and idiots have ruined bull breeds reputation when its not the breed but the owner.

I have a major puppy love for Bulldogs! Love them.

I don't think you can say as a blanket rule that you're scared of bull breeds because well, it was only a couple of years back I was attacked by two Boxers (a breed I'd been raised with and believed was very sound in temperament) yet these two dogs had been poorly raised and turned because of that. 

Shelties used to be known for being very vicious, careful breeding and selecting mentally sound dogs helped breed it out but many innocent looking breeds can be terrors. 

A smaller dog may not cause as much damage but the intention is very much the same. It doesn't have to be a bull breed to attack people/other dogs.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> That is your opinion of it. You asked for mine. We're not all the same, I think my dog looks cute and fluffy, you might think it looks frightening and horrible. That's fine, it's your opinion. Mine's fine too, as its my opinion, there are no right and wrong answers.


Not really opinion, more fact. She's one of my dogs. She may not be everyone's cup of tea in the looks and cute stakes, but certainly huggable and approachable. At Crufts last month, she quite enjoyed sitting in front of spectators being stroked and cuddled in the ring whilst waiting her turn with the judge.

I originally posted her picture as you'd made claims regarding the breed, ownership and breeding of another dog and was curious to see whether you'd apply the same stereotypes to me.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> ME FIRST ! CHOW CHOW !!! yes i had one !!!then ? ouf pic not in view think nerdy feja owner....um....BLOODHOUND ! jaja ! but i PASS on the last one...looks a BIT like? ouf what is the name of it ? ouf?? ah yes
> 
> BOUVIER DE FLANDRES ??? huge dogs ! seen in dogshows and read about in stories in my childhood forget the name of the book


The last one is a russian black terrier - used for guarding and protection  Scary eh


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> I'm not as fearful of him,but I still wouldn't approach him either on my own. Surely that is common sense? You wouldn't go up to a lion like you would a tabby, so why would you wander up to a strange big dog?
> 
> That is your opinion of it. You asked for mine. We're not all the same, I think my dog looks cute and fluffy, you might think it looks frightening and horrible. That's fine, it's your opinion. Mine's fine too, as its my opinion, there are no right and wrong answers.
> 
> Asides from the G.S/Alsatian, I'm afraid I do. Time and time again its the same breeds that are on the news. And its the same dog aggressive breeds too. As someone else said, saying a dog is dog aggressive is not comforting at all! If my dog was being attacked, I wouldn't think properly not to try and pry it apart, and then I'd most likely get bitten or the attacking dog would turn its attention on me instead. Saying a dog is dog aggressive but it's ok as it won't attack people is not good enough! I want to be safe to walk around, but equally I want my dog to be as well. Knowing the dog in the park won't bite me but will tear my dog to shreds is not appeasing or makes the dog less of a threat in the slightest.Again, that is my personal opinion, plenty won't agree (at least on here) but you can't slate someone for having an opinion on something.


WELL THANK YOU WOBBLES ! if it hadnt been for your upsetting people I WOULD HAVE MISSED GREAT PICTURES OF DOGS seen now due to your comments !!! there is always a positive in things hey !!! 

but to the serious point... of WHAT DOGS ARE FEARFUL PER SE ! excuse me PER SE means IN THEMSELVES in LATIN...sniff sniff !!!

well it certainly is a matter of PERCEPTION and those views are personal

some of those dogs....oh and i think the PUPPY BLACK DOG pic i did nto IDENTIFY in my excitement at treating this now like a NAME THE DOG competion is i THINK a puppy TERRE NEUVE ??? um what is that in GB lingo...um....NEWFOUNDLAND ? human saving water dogs ? dunno pass on that one...

as BLACK is the colour, football is the game...no BLUE of course...COLOUR is a PERCEPTION with BLACK dogs and the bigger the dog the bigger the impression AS A GENERAL RULE i suggest

sigh

now i MUST be BRIEF not ramble ...what is my point ????? um...that PERCEPTION of a dog or anything as frightening does not make it a dangerous dog...generalisation...meaning COLOUR or slobber chops or grumpy face with frowns type things...but people DO make assumtions often like that

does not make their fear reasonable however of course...BLACK DOGS for example are not necessarily dangerous...some are ! but BLACK is not the REAL issue...daring to use my PROBLEM with dog perception as an example

ps my aggressive to me dogs are forcing me to leave this interesting forum to TAKE THEM OUT again...joking...they just SOBBER CHOPPED me preventing me seeing even the screen !!! LOL !!! i HATE that !


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

I think the status dog works something like this:
Status dogs:










Not status dogs:


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Scary dog


No



Phoolf said:


> Absolutely terrifying - who'd want em!!


No, no and no. There is nothing wrong or scary with any of those to me. I am not afraid of dogs - except a certain few. I love dogs - exept a certain few. I a dog groomer, but there are one or two breeds I would point blank refuse to do. See a pattern? It's not the size/colour/hairstyle of the dog that I'm afraid of its the _breed_. You could show me a pic of every breed in the KC breed standard guidebook, it would only be a few, I'd say I was afraid of. Several I don't like much, such as hairless breeds, but only one or two that I'm genuinely frightened of.



SixStar said:


> I wasn't suggesting you approach him on your own - I was just wondering what your misconceptions were based on, and that confirms it's purely appearance  Ozzy is nearly 80 kg, and incredibly muscular and powerful - same as the DDB Snoringbear posted - both are capable of the same, but Ozzy is fluffy with softer features.
> 
> Why do you think German Shepherds shouldn't be on the list? I've certainly heard in the past of GSDs attacking people, but can't say I've heard of any Ridgeback attacks.
> 
> I've known many, many snappy collies - plenty of DA ones too - should they be on the list? And a JRT killed a newborn baby not so long ago, what about those? My aggressive dog is a Westie, how about them? My Newfie, Neo and Berner are all incredibly large and powerful - surely they should be on there too? My Greyhound would kill anything small and fluffy - surely they're a danger?


Difference is though, I've never heard of a Bernese maiming someone, or. Westie tearing apart another dog out on a walk. If they did, it would be a freak occur nice, with the breeds on that list its the norm. Let me put it this way, several years ago, people didn't carry knifes and stab each other to death very often. If you read about it/ saw it on tv, you were shocked at it, because it was shocking and horrifying something like that could happen. Nowadays, when you open the paper or hear on the news that someone's been stabbed to death, the reaction would be something like, "oh dear not another one, when will people learn and something be done about it? Ah well, lets see what the weather will be like tomorrow then" in other words, it happens so frequently now, it doesn't shock you as your practically immune to it, the victim is just another statistic. When someone being killed by a dog/dogs, which are the same breeds over and over again, makes you have that type of reaction, because its such a regular occurrence , something is wrong somewhere.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I think the status dog works something like this:
> Status dogs:
> 
> 
> ...


If that's the difference give me a status dog every day - I like dogs who have fun


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Last night I was watching True Crime with Aphrodite Jones.

It just happened to be about a dog mauling of the innocent Diane Whipple in 2001.

Diane was heading into her apartment when she was set upon by her neighbors two Perro de Presa Canario's. She was attacked in the hall way, the dogs were owned by Marjorie Knoller and her husband Robert Noel, both attorneys. Marjorie was holding the dogs leads at the time after taking them onto the roof for a wee. The dogs decided to attack and she couldn't hold them anymore.

The dogs had previously killed a Belgian Shepherd dog and had lunged at various other people previously. Including Diane Whipple just 2 weeks before her death.
The dogs had even bitten off their owner Robert Noel's fingers months before the attack but the owners refused to do anything about their clearly aggressive dogs and living in a small apartment with only the roof as a garden was bound to end in disaster.

Diane was so badly mauled that she had her throat almost ripped out. She had all her close (including her underwear) ripped off in the attack leaving her naked and dying on the floor trying to crawl for help. Marjorie (the dogs owner) decided instead of helping Diane she got the dogs into her apartment and didn't even bother to ring for help for Diane. Luckily another neighbor herd the incident but was too scared to venture into the hall as she had experienced the dogs aggressive behavior before. She called 911.

When police arrived she was alive but barely. She died shortly after.

It turned out when the case went to court the dogs were actually bred by a criminal white supremacy gang for "guarding" drugs ect. The dogs were given to the couple as a gift (how attorney's get involved with bad people like that is just weird) the couple decided to adopt the leader of the dog breeding scheme who was in prison so they could have more access to him to discuss the route of the business ect. In turn these two helped breed vicious dogs that had poor temperaments.

The dogs were both put to sleep, the male was killed straight away as he was the main attacker and a year later the courts ruled for the female dog to be put to sleep.

Anyway...

The owners were found guilty of 2nd Degree murder (for Marjorie) and Manslaughter for Robert.

*It proves how they are bred makes a difference.*
It's not about the breed but the people the dogs exposed to/


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> Asides from the G.S/Alsatian, I'm afraid I do. Time and time again its the same breeds that are on the news. And its the same dog aggressive breeds too. As someone else said, saying a dog is dog aggressive is not comforting at all! If my dog was being attacked, I wouldn't think properly not to try and pry it apart, and then I'd most likely get bitten or the attacking dog would turn its attention on me instead. Saying a dog is dog aggressive but it's ok as it won't attack people is not good enough! I want to be safe to walk around, but equally I want my dog to be as well. Knowing the dog in the park won't bite me but will tear my dog to shreds is not appeasing or makes the dog less of a threat in the slightest.Again, that is my personal opinion, plenty won't agree (at least on here) but you can't slate someone for having an opinion on something.


I have never said that any of the above was OK  and the actual question was to Happy Paws....what reasons though do you have for each breed on the list being on it to the exclusion of others?



FEJA JUODAS said:


> I AM IN SHOCK !
> 
> had not seen this list or not paid it attention before if i had !
> 
> ...


I am sorry - the list is actually those named breeds and their crosses - so mongrels are on there. It is the Republic of Ireland's list of Restricted (rather than banned) breeds - sorry for any confusion!



Phoolf said:


> The last one is a russian black terrier - used for guarding and protection  Scary eh


My cousin has one, plus a RR....she must be well 'ard .


----------



## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

This has all made for some interesting reading.

I wonder if the poster/s that are still arguing that certain breeds are inherently dangerous actually looked at the links provided. The ones that provided facts about the 'bitiest' dog breeds rather than media led misconceptions about 'dangerous dogs'. It doesn't read as if they have.

I've not been an owner very long but I've already been thanked twice by other owners for allowing my smallish dog to play with their staffie crosses. Apparently it really is fairly common for people to scoop up their dogs and scurry off in the other direction when faced with dogs that have a certain look to them. 

I think it's a shame when anything or anyone is judged solely by appearance and, on a practical note, it's going to make it a whole lot harder for owners of these breeds to give them the socialisation they need. If everyone buys into the propaganda that these are aggressive, anti-social dogs and so won't let them be around people and other dogs then it runs the risk of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> No
> 
> No, no and no. There is nothing wrong or scary with any of those to me. I am not afraid of dogs - except a certain few. I love dogs - exept a certain few. I a dog groomer, but there are one or two breeds I would point blank refuse to do. See a pattern? *It's not the size/colour/hairstyle of the dog that I'm afraid* of its the _breed_. You could show me a pic of every breed in the KC breed standard guidebook, it would only be a few, I'd say I was afraid of. Several I don't like much, such as hairless breeds, but only one or two that I'm genuinely frightened of.
> 
> Difference is though, I've never heard of a Bernese maiming someone, or. Westie tearing apart another dog out on a walk. If they did, it would be a freak occur nice, with the breeds on that list its the norm. Let me put it this way, several years ago, people didn't carry knifes and stab each other to death very often. If you read about it/ saw it on tv, you were shocked at it, because it was shocking and horrifying something like that could happen. Nowadays, when you open the paper or hear on the news that someone's been stabbed to death, the reaction would be something like, "oh dear not another one, when will people learn and something be done about it? Ah well, lets see what the weather will be like tomorrow then" in other words, it happens so frequently now, it doesn't shock you as your practically immune to it, the victim is just another statistic. When someone being killed by a dog/dogs, which are the same breeds over and over again, makes you have that type of reaction, because its such a regular occurrence , something is wrong somewhere.


Yes - yes it is - you are being so ignorant

Chow chows - St Bernards - Bloodhound and Russian Black Terriers have killed countless people over the years - but it's okay because they're fluffy :lol: Honestly - your prejudice is astounding


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Dogless said:


> I have never said that any of the above was OK  and the actual question was to Happy Paws....what reasons though do you have for each breed on the list being on it to the exclusion of others?
> 
> I am sorry - the list is actually those named breeds and their crosses - so mongrels are on there. It is the Republic of Ireland's list of Restricted (rather than banned) breeds - sorry for any confusion!
> 
> My cousin has one, plus a RR....she must be well 'ard .


Your cousin is obviously asking for trouble with such vicious dogs!


----------



## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> I a dog groomer, but there are one or two breeds I would point blank refuse to do.


Your prejudice and ignorance astounds me.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> I a dog groomer, but there are one or two breeds I would point blank refuse to do.


Wow, rather worrying someone in the dog profession could actually be so ignorant. Incredibly glad I do not use groomers if some are like you! What breeds do you refuse to do? Have you ever had a bad experience with them, or do they just ''look scary''?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I think the status dog works something like this:
> Status dogs:
> 
> 
> ...


Or status dog....










And not....


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> No, no and no. There is nothing wrong or scary with any of those to me. I am not afraid of dogs - except a certain few. I love dogs - exept a certain few. I a dog groomer, but there are one or two breeds I would point blank refuse to do. See a pattern? It's not the size/colour/hairstyle of the dog that I'm afraid of its the _breed_.


This is the definition of breedism. Applied to humans it's called racism. Same thought process. Kind of fascinating to see it so blatantly first hand like this. Sad, but fascinating.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> No
> 
> No, no and no. There is nothing wrong or scary with any of those to me. I am not afraid of dogs - except a certain few. I love dogs - exept a certain few. I a dog groomer, but there are one or two breeds I would point blank refuse to do. See a pattern? It's not the size/colour/hairstyle of the dog that I'm afraid of its the _breed_. You could show me a pic of every breed in the KC breed standard guidebook, it would only be a few, I'd say I was afraid of. Several I don't like much, such as hairless breeds, but only one or two that I'm genuinely frightened of.
> 
> Difference is though, I've never heard of a Bernese maiming someone, or. Westie tearing apart another dog out on a walk. If they did, it would be a freak occur nice, *with the breeds on that list its the norm.* Let me put it this way, several years ago, people didn't carry knifes and stab each other to death very often. If you read about it/ saw it on tv, you were shocked at it, because it was shocking and horrifying something like that could happen. Nowadays, when you open the paper or hear on the news that someone's been stabbed to death, the reaction would be something like, "oh dear not another one, when will people learn and something be done about it? Ah well, lets see what the weather will be like tomorrow then" in other words, it happens so frequently now, it doesn't shock you as your practically immune to it, the victim is just another statistic. When someone being killed by a dog/dogs, which are the same breeds over and over again, makes you have that type of reaction, because its such a regular occurrence , something is wrong somewhere.


Really? The norm? Quite honestly that is total rubbish!



Mulish said:


> This has all made for some interesting reading.
> 
> I wonder if the poster/s that are still arguing that certain breeds are inherently dangerous actually looked at the links provided. The ones that provided facts about the 'bitiest' dog breeds rather than media led misconceptions about 'dangerous dogs'. It doesn't read as if they have.
> 
> ...


It is very hard, socialisation with both Kilo and Rudi was easy when they were very small. It becomes increasingly difficult as they grow .


----------



## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Dogless said:


> This is the list of restricted breeds; they all have a very different heritage but do you agree that they should all be on there?
> 
>  American Pit Bull Terrier
>  Bull Mastiff
> ...





Wobbles said:


> Asides from the G.S/Alsatian, I'm afraid I do. Time and time again its the same breeds that are on the news. And its the same dog aggressive breeds too. As someone else said, saying a dog is dog aggressive is not comforting at all! If my dog was being attacked, I wouldn't think properly not to try and pry it apart, and then I'd most likely get bitten or the attacking dog would turn its attention on me instead. Saying a dog is dog aggressive but it's ok as it won't attack people is not good enough! I want to be safe to walk around, but equally I want my dog to be as well. Knowing the dog in the park won't bite me but will tear my dog to shreds is not appeasing or makes the dog less of a threat in the slightest.Again, that is my personal opinion, plenty won't agree (at least on here) but you can't slate someone for having an opinion on something.


But they're all bred for such different things... What's the difference between a GSD and a Rottweiler? their original purpose isn't that different. Working with sheep or cows isn't exactly a completely different skill set. Rottweilers can be prone to same sex aggression, but it isn't accepted, it's just something to be aware of if you have one and make sure that you do your best to prevent it, plenty of early socialization and keep them at training classes until well into maturity - from what I've read that's the same for GSDs. They're used for similar sports and working roles...

Why are GSDs ok, and not Rottweilers?


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, do you find this dog scary, she's about the size of a collie, maybe a little bigger?









What about this one? He's considerably bigger.









And this one? Average GSD size, smaller than doggy number 2 though.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> ...Difference is though, I've never heard of a Bernese maiming someone, or. Westie tearing apart another dog out on a walk. *If they did, it would be a freak occur nice, with the breeds on that list its the norm.*..


*Do you have any facts to back that up?*

Just because you've not heard of it doesn't mean it's not happened. Nor does it make a non bull breed DA or HA that's caused harm a freak occurrence.

Funnily enough, I know of a Stafford that was being walked down the road, on a lead, by it's responsible owner not so long ago when an off lead Westie came flying out of someone's drive and latched onto the Staffie's ear. The poor Stafford was screaming and didn't know what to do, it just stood there while the westie continued to rag at it's ear. Now in that incident the Westie didn't tear apart the Staffie but it tore a part of it's ear off!

The local paper didn't want to know but if it had've been the other way round then I wouldn't mind betting the headline would've read something along the lines of 'Vicious staffy mauls gentle family pet'


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> No
> 
> No, no and no. There is nothing wrong or scary with any of those to me. I am not afraid of dogs - except a certain few. I love dogs - exept a certain few. I a dog groomer, but there are one or two breeds I would point blank refuse to do. See a pattern? It's not the size/colour/hairstyle of the dog that I'm afraid of its the _breed_. You could show me a pic of every breed in the KC breed standard guidebook, it would only be a few, I'd say I was afraid of. Several I don't like much, such as hairless breeds, but only one or two that I'm genuinely frightened of.
> 
> Difference is though, I've never heard of a Bernese maiming someone, or. Westie tearing apart another dog out on a walk. If they did, it would be a freak occur nice, with the breeds on that list its the norm. Let me put it this way, several years ago, people didn't carry knifes and stab each other to death very often. If you read about it/ saw it on tv, you were shocked at it, because it was shocking and horrifying something like that could happen. Nowadays, when you open the paper or hear on the news that someone's been stabbed to death, the reaction would be something like, "oh dear not another one, when will people learn and something be done about it? Ah well, lets see what the weather will be like tomorrow then" in other words, it happens so frequently now, it doesn't shock you as your practically immune to it, the victim is just another statistic. When someone being killed by a dog/dogs, which are the same breeds over and over again, makes you have that type of reaction, because its such a regular occurrence , something is wrong somewhere.


Given the nature of your recent posts I'm having real difficulty in deciding whether your a complete idiot or a troll. On one side I find it incredibly un unfathomable that someone can be so naive and uneducated and on the other can see that a troll would pursue that to get a rise. Just can't make my mind up.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> Given the nature of your recent posts I'm having real difficulty in deciding whether your a complete idiot or a troll. On one side I find it incredibly un unfathomable that someone can be so naive and uneducated and on the other can see that a troll would pursue that to get a rise. *Just can't make my mind up*.


Neither can I, snoringbear, & heaven knows I've tried

ETA: And not just on this thread either!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> What are you're conclusions about this dog?


That it would break down doors, raid my fridge, drink all my booze and wreck my house 

Is this dog scary?









How about this one?









One of them would bite under the right circumstances.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> Time and time again its the same breeds that are on the news


Yet other dogs attack/bite but are not in the media as it doesn't sell papers as well. Posted before but in case you haven't seen it..






So true but I expect you also believe Kim Jong-il really did shoot 11 holes-in-one when playing golf for the first time and media always report only the truth and provide a balanced viewpoint to whatever they do.

A court in Germany asked why Tosa Inu's where on the BSL list and German Shepherd Dogs (GSD) weren't. Answer from the government expert went along the lines, it's expected for a GSD to bite on occasion and the public accepts this. Judges commented on the fact no dog attack has been recorded by a Tosa Inu (in fact only 1 or 2 were in the state in question) and they continued by saying maybe it's a german right of passage to be bitten by a GSD which is why they are not on the list. Once again it shows how it's only perception, not facts which is the basis for BSL.

I've said I have 2 american bulldogs. I also have an old english bulldog. If I am wary of any dog in our pack however it's Benny, a Hovawart. He's the dog I will never take on the school run, to wait outside the school, to be potentially greeted by the kids as they come out and to be made a fuss of. It's also interesting that at the vets, Benny is the one who the vets are careful of and not simply as he is blind.



Dogless said:


> Once I cross the border (as I have done) into ROI they are on the 'Restricted Breeds' list - law states that they would have to be on strong leads or chains of no more than 2m in length, securely muzzled and walked by someone of over 16 years of age capable of controlling them.


Same as in Germany but it's worse in some ways. Different states have different laws and regulations. Our last rescued American Bulldog came from Frankfurt. It was listed and identified by the vet as a cross and we suspect this was probably to avoid the complications it would have caused, including insurance costs (all dogs have to be insured here). Here in Lower Saxony we have no problems with them being a listed breed and insurance costs are the same as any other dog. Yet another example of why BSL doesn't work, if a vet can't determine a breed correctly, if by mistake or otherwise. Then again still waiting for Wobbles to come up with any study or anything based in proven facts to support their viewpoint.

Finally yet another picture of a breed frequently banned which I have posted before but worth repeating:


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Sarah1983 said:


> That it would break down doors, raid my fridge, drink all my booze and wreck my house
> 
> Is this dog scary?
> 
> ...


Will definitely wreck your house, seen that one already.


----------



## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

SixStar said:


> Wow, rather worrying someone in the dog profession could actually be so ignorant. Incredibly glad I do not use groomers if some are like you! What breeds do you refuse to do? Have you ever had a bad experience with them, or do they just ''look scary''?


Their not obviously, but I'm sure people who are afraid of certain breeds would refuse to get up so close them a well! I'm terrified of sbt's, I believe dogs can sense fear, therefore I don't think it would be very safe for either the dog or myself to try and groom it. It's far safer and easier to simply say I won't do that particular breed.



simplysardonic said:


> Just out of curiosity, do you find this dog scary, she's about the size of a collie, maybe a little bigger?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are they your dogs SS? Their really gorgeous. Admittedly I do like the top and bottom ones more, but only as my preference is long haired or fluffy dogs compared to short/smooth ones.


----------



## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> ...*Difference is though, I've never heard of a Bernese maiming someone, or. Westie tearing apart another dog out on a walk. If they did, it would be a freak occur nice, with the breeds on that list its the norm. *Let me put it this way, several years ago, people didn't carry knifes and stab each other to death very often. If you read about it/ saw it on tv, you were shocked at it, because it was shocking and horrifying something like that could happen. Nowadays, when you open the paper or hear on the news that someone's been stabbed to death, the reaction would be something like, "oh dear not another one, when will people learn and something be done about it? Ah well, lets see what the weather will be like tomorrow then" in other words, it happens so frequently now, it doesn't shock you as your practically immune to it, the victim is just another statistic. When someone being killed by a dog/dogs, which are the same breeds over and over again, makes you have that type of reaction, because its such a regular occurrence , *something is wrong somewhere*.


Well I can't speak for where you live but I can assure you that dogs tearing other dogs apart is most definitely NOT the norm where I am! And we have staffies and mastiffs and rotties and everything around here.

Violent crime shocks me every time and I don't see the victims as just another statistic, if you do then I can tell you what that something is that's wrong, it's that you have a lack of compassion and empathy. You don't have to be incapacitated by grief to be upset that something bad has happened but you shouldn't just be able to shrug it off like it's normal, either.

ETA I feel a bit like I'm picking on this poster when I meant a general 'you' rather than Wobbles in particular.


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## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

Dogless said:


> It is very hard, socialisation with both Kilo and Rudi was easy when they were very small. It becomes increasingly difficult as they grow .


I'm sorry . If you lived closer and your boys didn't mind an overly friendly muppet dog bouncing around with them I'd be more than happy to socialise with yours.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

I'll take the no response to my question to mean 'no' then shall I Wobbles?


----------



## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Galadriel17 said:


> I'll take the no response to my question to mean 'no' then shall I Wobbles?


Sorry, what question was that? There's so many posts its hard to keep track.


----------



## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Ok, so i know of a dog that is large and weighs around 30kg and could be fully capable of causing harm if they wanted to, would you be scared of such dog?


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

What is there to be afraid of??


----------



## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Difference is though, I've never heard of a Bernese maiming someone, or. Westie tearing apart another dog out on a walk. If they did, it would be a freak occur nice, with the breeds on that list its the norm.


Actually dogs killing other dogs IS a freak occurrence, with dogs killing people being even more rare. Your dog is far more likely to get killed by a car or by a HUMAN than by another dog. But the news doesn't report about every dog struck by a car does it? It's BECAUSE it is a freak occurrence that the media reports on it.
Children get killed by their own parents at an alarming rate but you don't see that plastered all over the news. Child killed by a dog? Oh, that never happens, so the news covers it like crazy.



Wobbles said:


> Let me put it this way, several years ago, people didn't carry knifes and stab each other to death very often. If you read about it/ saw it on tv, you were shocked at it, because it was shocking and horrifying something like that could happen. Nowadays, when you open the paper or hear on the news that someone's been stabbed to death, the reaction would be something like, "oh dear not another one, when will people learn and something be done about it? Ah well, lets see what the weather will be like tomorrow then" in other words, it happens so frequently now, it doesn't shock you as your practically immune to it, the victim is just another statistic. When someone being killed by a dog/dogs, which are the same breeds over and over again, makes you have that type of reaction, because its such a regular occurrence , something is wrong somewhere.


You are very confused, really. People are no more violent today than they were before. If anything we are LESS violent. Nobody is being drawn and quartered in the streets and we no longer attend public hangings in most civilized nations. Read your history books  
You are being confused by what is reported and what is actually happening. Remember, news media is a business like anything else. They are out to sell stories. And child dying of anaphylaxis after a bee sting or eating a peanut doesn't sell as well as child mauled by pitbull. If you were to look up actual unbiased statistics, you'd see that children are far more likely to die from eating a peanut or being stung by a bee than by the fangs of a dog. Maybe we should ban peanuts and kill all the bees? And parents, ban parents - especially male ones. Statistically they kill more children than peanuts, bees, and dogs.

See what I mean? It doesn't do anyone any good, nor does it keep anyone safe if we run around like chicken little shouting that the sky is falling.
I really think you should try to educate yourself on what is really happening out there....


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> Their not obviously, but I'm sure people who are afraid of certain breeds would refuse to get up so close them a well! I'm terrified of sbt's, I believe dogs can sense fear, therefore I don't think it would be very safe for either the dog or myself to try and groom it. It's far safer and easier to simply say I won't do that


Dog grooming probably wasn't the best choice of career then. I imagine your employer is thrilled by turning customers away as you won't go near their dogs.


----------



## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

MrRustyRead said:


> Ok, so i know of a dog that is large and weighs around 30kg and could be fully capable of causing harm if they wanted to, would you be scared of such dog?


It would depend on what type of dog it was. A lab can weigh about that much, but I'm not afraid of them.


----------



## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> ... Admittedly I do like the top and bottom ones more, but only as my preference is long haired or fluffy dogs compared to short/smooth ones.


Is it because, as a groomer, you'll get more money working on them? 

Except, you'd also got more money for bigger dogs so maybe it's not a finance driven fear after all.

(I'm being facetious, in case the smilies don't give it away)


----------



## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Dog grooming probably wasn't the best choice of career then. I imagine your employer is thrilled by turning customers away as you won't go near their dogs.


I work for myself and as its only one or two breeds I'm scared of, ones that generally wouldn't need grooming as such, there's no problem.


----------



## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> It would depend on what type of dog it was. A lab can weigh about that much, but I'm not afraid of them.


shouldnt matter on its type, the same sized dog can do the same sized damage


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> Their not obviously, but I'm sure people who are afraid of certain breeds would refuse to get up so close them a well! I'm terrified of sbt's, I believe dogs can sense fear, therefore I don't think it would be very safe for either the dog or myself to try and groom it. It's far safer and easier to simply say I won't do that particular breed.
> 
> Are they your dogs SS? Their really gorgeous. Admittedly I do like the top and bottom ones more, but only as my preference is long haired or fluffy dogs compared to short/smooth ones.


Yeah, they're my dogs. More people approach Rogue (top) out & about than the other 2, but she's definitely the one who is the least people oriented (probably due to her street dog heritage), people think shes cute & fluffy so must be Ok, but she really isn't comfortable with strangers shoving their hands at her.

Our Bob (the big lad) goes nuts for people he knows, but is wary of some male strangers & is dog aggressive (though much better than he was). I muzzle him when we're out.

Trix loves everyone & everything & is a real family oriented dog. She got attacked by a lab but is still great with other dogs. Her only real issue is she barks at the slightest noise & is almost impossible to shut up


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> I work for myself and as its only one or two breeds I'm scared of, ones that generally wouldn't need grooming as such, there's no problem.


More than one given your posts on the thread.

If you work for yourself good luck. Just don't bother going on Dragon's Den. I think wanting to groom dogs whilst being scared of others will be a bit of a non-starter.


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> More than one given your posts on the thread.
> 
> If you work for yourself good luck. Just don't bother going on Dragon's Den. I think wanting to groom dogs whilst being scared of others will be a bit of a non-starter.


You couldn't make it up really could you? A dog groomer scared of dogs... ut:


----------



## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Mulish said:


> Is it because, as a groomer, you'll get more money working on them?
> 
> Except, you'd also got more money for bigger dogs so maybe it's not a finance driven fear after all.
> 
> (I'm being facetious, in case the smilies don't give it away)


 No, good thought, but no. I just like fluffy dogs dogs more. If someone offered me a chihuahua, it would be a long haired one I'd want, not a smooth. Same with a rough and smooth collie. The breed I want next is a Pom, tiny and super fluffy. My next choice would be a sheltie or a LH chihuahua.



MrRustyRead said:


> shouldnt matter on its type, the same sized dog can do the same sized damage


Maybe, but the size doesn't scare me, the breed does. So unless you can say what your 30kg dog is I can't tell you if I'd be afraid of it or not.


----------



## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> I work for myself and as its only one or two breeds I'm scared of, ones that generally wouldn't need grooming as such, there's no problem.


i'll probably be needing the services of a dog groomer with my next breed , best avoid you then hadn't i? wouldn't want my dog traumatized because the breed is a ''hated'' one.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> Sorry, what question was that? There's so many posts its hard to keep track.


The question I asked at the bottom of page 43.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> No, good thought, but no. I just like fluffy dogs dogs more. If someone offered me a chihuahua, it would be a long haired one I'd want, not a smooth. Same with a rough and smooth collie. The breed I want next is a Pom, tiny and super fluffy. My next choice would be a sheltie or a LH chihuahua.
> 
> Maybe, but the size doesn't scare me, the breed does. So unless you can say what your 30kg dog is I can't tell you if I'd be afraid of it or not.


Surprised you want a Pom given their history as child killers, but if they're cute and fluffy they must be safe.

Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog - Los Angeles Times
http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/2001/pomeranian.html


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Maybe, but the size doesn't scare me, the breed does. So unless you can say what your 30kg dog is I can't tell you if I'd be afraid of it or not.


Have you ever considered trying to educate yourself on what body language clues to look for in a dog that would alert you to potential aggressive behavior?

Like, instead of simply avoiding dogs based on appearance, you could avoid dogs based on behavior - and be much safer in the long run because of this knowledge.

For that matter, have you read any of the informative posts on this thread and taken any of it in? Have you attempted to learn anything from this thread? Has anything at all sunk in or are we just dealing with a narrow minded bigot with no intention of listening to reason?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

SixStar said:


> You couldn't make it up really could you? A dog groomer scared of dogs... ut:


I'm NOT afraid of dogs. I LOVE dogs. I wouldn't have gone to be a dog groomer if I was afraid of dogs. I am afraid of one or two breeds, namely the bull terrier, that does NOT mean I'm afraid of dog's in general!



Nagini said:


> i'll probably be needing the services of a dog groomer with my next breed , best avoid you then hadn't i? wouldn't want my dog traumatized because the breed is a ''hated'' one.


That depends on what breed it is


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> I'm NOT afraid of dogs. I LOVE dogs. I wouldn't have gone to be a dog groomer if I was afraid of dogs. I am afraid of one or two breeds, namely the bull terrier, that does NOT mean I'm afraid of dog's in general!
> 
> That depends on what breed it is


You said you were scared of Staffordshire bull terriers a few times. Bull Terriers are a different breed. ?????

You're not afraid of dogs but are scared of some dogs? That's priceless.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> I'm NOT afraid of dogs. I LOVE dogs. I wouldn't have gone to be a dog groomer if I was afraid of dogs. I am afraid of one or two breeds, namely the bull terrier, that does NOT mean I'm afraid of dog's in general!
> 
> That depends on what breed it is


But you're scared of Staffies too, and now the Bull Terrier? You didn't like Snoringbears DDB, nor the white dog involved in the attack, an American Bulldog? You said my Newfoundland isn't _as_ scary and you sure as hell won't like my lad Blue who is a Neo Mastiff cross weighing in at 70 kg, and you've said you couldn't say if you were scared of a 30 kg without knowing the breed - a 30 kg isn't going to be a staffie or a bullie, nor any of the other breeds I've just mentioned? So that's another one you're scared of?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Galadriel17 said:


> The question I asked at the bottom of page 43.


Sorry, I missed it. I would go off the fact that its always the same breeds that are in these incidents, so yes to most people it would be the norm. If the front page read ' dog attacks/kills person - guess the breed' I'm fairly sure most people's instant thought would be bull terrier/ status dog, not a papillon or a poodle.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> Maybe, but the size doesn't scare me, the breed does. So unless you can say what your 30kg dog is I can't tell you if I'd be afraid of it or not.


thats the point just because you like the look of them doesnt mean to say they are friendly


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Galadriel17 said:


> *Do you have any facts to back that up?*
> 
> Just because you've not heard of it doesn't mean it's not happened. Nor does it make a non bull breed DA or HA that's caused harm a freak occurrence.
> 
> ...





Galadriel17 said:


> I'll take the no response to my question to mean 'no' then shall I Wobbles?





Wobbles said:


> Sorry, what question was that? There's so many posts its hard to keep track.





Galadriel17 said:


> The question I asked at the bottom of page 43.


So it is a 'no' then?


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> I'm NOT afraid of dogs. I LOVE dogs. I wouldn't have gone to be a dog groomer if I was afraid of dogs. I am afraid of one or two breeds, namely the bull terrier, that does NOT mean I'm afraid of dog's in general!


take a look at these vicious breeds.

[youtube_browser]d2aOY7V69xI[/youtube_browser]

[youtube_browser]G7s5NxyogfI[/youtube_browser]

[youtube_browser]IM7jhBqscLM[/youtube_browser]


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

I'm still curious about why GSDs are ok and Rottweilers aren't as well...


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> You said you were scared of Staffordshire bull terriers a few times. Bull Terriers are a different breed. ?????
> 
> You're not afraid of dogs but are scared of some dogs? That's priceless.


Nobody likes every breed, just like nobody likes every person. You can be more scared of some breeds than others, what about if someone liked all breeds but were afraid of jack Russell's? They wouldnt be afraid of dogs in general but are of one breed.



SixStar said:


> But you're scared of Staffies too, and now the Bull Terrier? You didn't like Snoringbears DDB, nor the white dog involved in the attack, an American Bulldog? You said my Newfoundland isn't _as_ scary and you sure as hell won't like my lad Blue who is a Neo Mastiff cross weighing in at 70 kg, and you've said you couldn't say if you were scared of a 30 kg without knowing the breed - a 30 kg isn't going to be a staffie or a bullie, nor any of the other breeds I've just mentioned? So that's another one you're scared of?


No,no,no. I wouldn't be afraid of those, just wouldn't approach them on my own. Something that is common sense I believe. Bull terriers I _am_ afraid of, and wouldn't even go near if there was an owner with it. That is one or two breeds not loads like you've put.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

tabulahrasa said:


> I'm still curious about why GSDs are ok and Rottweilers aren't as well...


We've established fluffy dogs are ok  They can be the same size and strength as their non-fluffy friends, but as long as they've got lots of fur they're not scary


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> Really?
> 
> *These dogs mauled a girl over a pie.....do you really think they were given a sufficient diet?
> *
> ...


I haven't read through all the thread so don't know what's been said since this, but Lucky is fed on what I believe to be the best diet for her and she would go crazy for a crumb of toast, never mind a pie.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Bull terriers I _am_ afraid of, and wouldn't even go near if there was an owner with it. That is one or two breeds not loads like you've put.


I'm just going to ask the same thing again...


ouesi said:


> Have you ever considered trying to educate yourself on what body language clues to look for in a dog that would alert you to potential aggressive behavior?
> 
> Like, instead of simply avoiding dogs based on appearance, you could avoid dogs based on behavior - and be much safer in the long run because of this knowledge.
> 
> For that matter, have you read any of the informative posts on this thread and taken any of it in? Have you attempted to learn anything from this thread? Has anything at all sunk in or are we just dealing with a narrow minded bigot with no intention of listening to reason?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Galadriel17 said:


> So it is a 'no' then?


No, answered on bottom of last page, either 46 or 47.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

SixStar said:


> We've established fluffy dogs are ok  They can be the same size and strength as their non-fluffy friends, but as long as they've got lots of fur they're not scary


Maybe the fur hides all the big scary teef?


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## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Sorry, I missed it. I would go off the fact that its always the same breeds that are in these incidents, so yes to most people it would be the norm. If the front page read ' dog attacks/kills person - guess the breed' I'm fairly sure most people's instant thought would be bull terrier/ status dog, not a papillon or a poodle.


But that's perception, not fact. It is NOT fact that it's always the same breeds in 'these' attacks. There have been numerous posts throughout this thread showing that it's not fact. It doesn't matter what 'most people' might guess, it would still be a guess, or 10 guesses, or 1000 guesses and not a fact.

You can be afraid of any dog you like for any reason you like but you cannot say something is an objective fact when it isn't and then expect people to just accept it. Opinions aren't the same as facts, either.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

tabulahrasa said:


> I'm still curious about why GSDs are ok and Rottweilers aren't as well...


I never said Rottweilers weren't I met a nice one the other day in for grooming. I'm not afraid of them, never said anything about them either, at least I don't think..this threads so long I can't remember poroperly.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> Nobody likes every breed, just like nobody likes every person. You can be more scared of some breeds than others, what about if someone liked all breeds but were afraid of jack Russell's? They wouldnt be afraid of dogs in general but are of one breed.
> 
> No,no,no. I wouldn't be afraid of those, just wouldn't approach them on my own. Something that is common sense I believe. Bull terriers I _am_ afraid of, and wouldn't even go near if there was an owner with it. That is one or two breeds not loads like you've put.


What crap. In fact the whole tirade of drivel spewing from your mouth is like a tsunami of sewage. I like every breed. Certainly not scared of any. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

If you're scared of breeds you don't like dogs as a whole. Period. If you wish to stigmatise certain breeds you not a dog lover. You're a dog owner.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> I never said Rottweilers weren't I met a nice one the other day in for grooming. I'm not afraid of them, never said anything about them either, at least I don't think..this threads so long I can't remember poroperly.


So your not afraid of Rottweilers despite them having killed children, but you fear Bull Terriers which haven't.

Makes great sense.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> What crap. In fact the whole tirade of drivel spewing from your mouth is like a tsunami of sewage. I like every breed. Certainly not scared of any. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.
> 
> If you're scared of breeds you don't like dogs as a whole. Period. If you wish to stigmatise certain breeds you not a dog lover. You're a dog owner.


I doubt anyone likes every single dog breed going for one reason or another. What about people who only like big dogs, not tiny little yappy ones? Or the other way around, likes the tiny yappers but not big dogs?


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> No,no,no. I wouldn't be afraid of those, just wouldn't approach them on my own. Something that is common sense I believe. Bull terriers I _am_ afraid of, and wouldn't even go near if there was an owner with it. That is one or two breeds not loads like you've put.


It'd be incredibly foolish of you to approach any unknown dog on your dog? 

So it's Bull Terriers and not Staffordshire Bull Terriers? Or both? But what about the American Bulldog? You exclaimed that Buddy, the white dog in the attack ''was terrifying''? (your words)

So you'd be terrified by Buddy...










But not by Blue?










Just honestly trying to understand your logic here


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Nobody likes every breed, just like nobody likes every person. You can be more scared of some breeds than others, what about if someone liked all breeds but were afraid of jack Russell's? They wouldnt be afraid of dogs in general but are of one breed.


i love all breeds , there are some i wouldn't own because my situation wouldn't be right for them , yet i still admire those dogs from afar. 
you know i'd have loved at some point to have had a collie , yet i recognize i don't have enough time in the day to devote to stimulating one and keeping one happy , ever considered that some of the breeds you don't like are because of folks POOR choices in what they felt they could manage at the time?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

SixStar said:


> It'd be incredibly foolish of you to approach any unknown dog on your dog?
> 
> So it's Bull Terriers and not Staffordshire Bull Terriers? Or both? But what about the American Bulldog? You exclaimed that Buddy, the white dog in the attack ''was terrifying''? (your words)
> 
> ...


Is blue a Neapolitan mastiff? If he is he looks much better than the ones with all them awful wrinkles (which in that pic it doesn't look like he has). Way better. And healthier too.

Yes I'd be pretty afraid of the white dog, would not at all feel comfortable going into a garden if he came down the drive. Don't think I would of Blue though, I don't know, some things just make you feel uneasy and some don't.

Bull terriers, by which I mean stafforshire's, pitbulls, and to a lesser extent the proper English ones. The English ones I'm not half as afraid of.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> I doubt anyone likes every single dog breed going for one reason or another. What about people who only like big dogs, not tiny little yappy ones? Or the other way around, likes the tiny yappers but not big dogs?


Already answered that. Pleas read posts before commenting.

In any event, there is a huge difference between like and fear and hate.

The difference here is that I might not like the appearance of a dog for aesthetic reasons, but it doesn't mean I fear or hate them. This simple fact seems to escape you.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> Nobody likes every breed, just like nobody likes every person. You can be more scared of some breeds than others, what about if someone liked all breeds but were afraid of jack Russell's? They wouldnt be afraid of dogs in general but are of one breed.
> u


A breed not being your sort of dog, or even being irrationally scared of a specific type, is fine. However, to spout venomous propaganda against certain breeds and make ignorant, inaccurate comments about how dangerous and aggressive these breeds are, and then act as those they are fact, is not Ok.

To start with, you don't even seem to know which breeds you are talking about. You keep changing the breed you are referring to without apparent awareness. This alone demonstrates your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Secondly, you are talking as though it is proven fact that bull breeds attack people/dogs/anything that moves. Lets make this clear. THIS IS NOT FACT. There is no evidence to support this.

Thirdly, do you understand that by supporting the suggestion of banning more breeds, innocent dogs will be taken from their family, irrelevant of actual breed as long as they fit a 'type', locked up in kennels, and eventually murdered. How can anyone that claims to be a dog lover, support something like that.

Fourthly, banning breeds DOES NOT WORK. Again, you talk as though it is a fact that by banning breeds suddenly dog attacks with stop. There is NO EVIDENCE for this, and yet plenty of evidence demonstrating that banning breeds does not work.

I could go on.

I suggest you go and research into the subject properly and fully before you make such sweeping, potentially dangerous statements.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think its human nature to be wary of certain breeds though. Personally Im abit wary of most large breeds, probably more so 'status dogs'. I dont mean I run screaming from the room or think they will go for my throat, just that unknown large dogs have more potential to hurt you then small dogs, and 'status' dogs usually have bigger, stronger mouths which also gives them greater potential to hurt you!!
As a dog lover my wariness stems from a lack of trust in other owners rather then the dogs themselves though!! There seem to be so many people out there who dont train their dogs properly that it makes you cautious.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> I never said Rottweilers weren't I met a nice one the other day in for grooming. I'm not afraid of them, never said anything about them either, at least I don't think..this threads so long I can't remember poroperly.


Of the list of breeds that ROI subject to stricter control rules - the only one that you said shouldn't be on there was GSDs.


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## Linden_Tree (Jan 6, 2011)

Why do people care so much about Wobbles opinion? This entire thread seems to now be revolving around her and her pig ignorant opinion and attitude.

I'm surprised so many can't see her for the lying troll she is to be honest.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> Is blue a Neapolitan mastiff? If he is he looks much better than the ones with all them awful wrinkles (which in that pic it doesn't look like he has). Way better. And healthier too.
> 
> Yes I'd be pretty afraid of the white dog, would not at all feel comfortable going into a garden if he came down the drive. Don't think I would of Blue though, I don't know, some things just make you feel uneasy and some don't.
> 
> Bull terriers, by which I mean stafforshire's, pitbulls, and to a lesser extent the proper English ones. The English ones I'm not half as afraid of.


Lol, they're all English. The English affix for Bull Terrier is not part of their pedigree name and generally used by people who don't know what they're talking about.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Snoringbear said:


> Given the nature of your recent posts I'm having real difficulty in deciding whether your a complete idiot or a troll. On one side I find it incredibly un unfathomable that someone can be so naive and uneducated and on the other can see that a troll would pursue that to get a rise. Just can't make my mind up.


I think neither - she's just a silly child - and I suppose this level of ignorance is 'the norm' as she would say


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> Is blue a Neapolitan mastiff? If he is he looks much better than the ones with all them awful wrinkles (which in that pic it doesn't look like he has). Way better. And healthier too.
> 
> Yes I'd be pretty afraid of the white dog, would not at all feel comfortable going into a garden if he came down the drive. Don't think I would of Blue though, I don't know, some things just make you feel uneasy and some don't.
> 
> Bull terriers, by which I mean stafforshire's, pitbulls, and to a lesser extent the proper English ones. The English ones I'm not half as afraid of.


Yes, Blue is a Neapolitan (cross). He is 70 kg and 30'' to the withers - Buddy is probably half his weight and a good few inches shorter. Both have similar features - big head with strong, thick set features. However, of course, my lad is blue in colour, whereas Buddy is white.

Honestly can not see how you can be afraid of one and not the other 

So you mean bull breeds, and not bull terriers? Because a Bull Terrier is an actual breed, and completely separate from staffies and pitbulls.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Linden_Tree said:


> Why do people care so much about Wobbles opinion? This entire thread seems to now be revolving around her and her pig ignorant opinion and attitude.
> 
> I'm surprised so many can't see her for the lying troll she is to be honest.


I'm always curious as to why people think certain breeds are inherently more dangerous than other ones.

If it's a size thing I can kind of understand it - I understand that people could be slightly nervous of large dogs in general, or of large dogs if they have small ones, but I always wonder what people who are only scared of certain breeds base their opinion on.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Linden_Tree said:


> Why do people care so much about Wobbles opinion? This entire thread seems to now be revolving around her and her pig ignorant opinion and attitude.
> 
> I'm surprised so many can't see her for the lying troll she is to be honest.


1) Morbid curiosity. Kind of a "wow you really do think like that?" 
2) Lurkers. Sadly, wobbles is not alone. Just read the comments on FB and the Daily Mail. I figure even if Wobbles doesn't read the informative posts, others might and might actually take it in and learn something.
3) Optimism. Hoping that something someone says might click.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

tabulahrasa said:


> but I always wonder what people who are only scared of certain breeds base their opinion on.


depends how you look at it I suppose... Some people look at a Staffie and see a big smile, others see a gigantic gapping maw surrounded by sharp teef!!


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> No, answered on bottom of last page, either 46 or 47.


Sorry, I missed your response.



Wobbles said:


> Sorry, I missed it. I would go off the fact that its always the same breeds that are in these incidents, so yes to most people it would be the norm. If the front page read ' dog attacks/kills person - guess the breed' I'm fairly sure most people's instant thought would be bull terrier/ status dog, not a papillon or a poodle.


So still a 'no' 

I'm asking if you have any facts (actual evidence based facts, not what you think) to base your statement on, the one where you said that it's the norm for the American Pit Bull Terrier, the Bull Mastiff, the Doberman Pinscher, the English Bull Terrier, the German Shepherd, the Japanese Akita, the Japanese Tosa, the Rhodesian Ridgeback, the Rottweiler and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier to kill and maim people and dogs yet it's 'a freak occurrence' for any other breed to do so.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Already answered that. Pleas read posts before commenting.
> 
> In any event, there is a huge difference between like and fear and hate.
> 
> The difference here is that I might not like the appearance of a dog for aesthetic reasons, but it doesn't mean I fear or hate them. This simple fact seems to escape you.


Well I don't know about you, but being chased by a pack of 6 at 12 yrs old _really_ doesn't do much to make you like them very much.



tabulahrasa said:


> Of the list of breeds that ROI subject to stricter control rules - the only one that you said shouldn't be on there was GSDs.


I missed the Rottweiler being listed.



Linden_Tree said:


> Why do people care so much about Wobbles opinion? This entire thread seems to now be revolving around her and her pig ignorant opinion and attitude.
> 
> I'm surprised so many can't see her for the lying troll she is to be honest.


Excuse me, I am not lying and not a troll. Why is it when someone on here has a different opinion to the rest their automatically a troll? Can't understand someone else's viewpoint so its easier to just label them a troll I suppose.



Snoringbear said:


> Lol, they're all English. The English affix for Bull Terrier is not part of their pedigree name and generally used by people who don't know what they're talking about.


You know the ones I mean, the English bull terrier, with a big egg shaped head.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> I think neither - she's just a silly child - and I suppose this level of ignorance is 'the norm' as she would say


A third option i hadn't considered.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Snoringbear said:


> A third option i hadn't considered.


I've said some silly things in my youth - so I'll let that pass - but I was always encouraged by my lovely parents not to be closed minded and pig ignorant so that to me is unforgivable


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> A third option i hadn't considered.


Dunno, 25's a bit old to be called a child......


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Galadriel17 said:


> Sorry, I missed your response.
> 
> So still a 'no'
> 
> I'm asking if you have any facts (actual evidence based facts, not what you think) to base your statement on, the one where you said that it's the norm for the American Pit Bull Terrier, the Bull Mastiff, the Doberman Pinscher, the English Bull Terrier, the German Shepherd, the Japanese Akita, the Japanese Tosa, the Rhodesian Ridgeback, the Rottweiler and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier to kill and maim people and dogs yet it's 'a freak occurrence' for any other breed to do so.


I'm pretty sure a toy poodle maiming someone to death would be a freak occurrence. Sure others would think so too.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Wobbles there is nothing wrong with not liking certain breeds or fearing them. By all means avoid them.

But you're doing so much more - you are spouting unfounded, inaccurate, offensive nonsense. You make claims that some breeds are inherently dangerous, more likely to kill people etc based on nothing more than your personal prejudices. You have also managed to insult all the owners and lovers of those breeds, suggesting they only want them to look hard, to intimidate etc.

Disliking or fearing is fine, spreading malicious lies about dogs and their owners is not!!


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> I'm pretty sure a toy poodle maiming someone to death would be a freak occurrence. Sure others would think so too.


I think it's a freak occurrence for _any_ dog to maul someone to death...

Think of how many dogs there are in the UK, what about 9 million? That's 9 million dogs living and interacting with people every every single day - and how often do we get a fatal dog attack? Once or twice a year, if that?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> Well I don't know about you, but being chased by a pack of 6 at 12 yrs old _really_ doesn't do much to make you like them very much.
> 
> I missed the Rottweiler being listed.
> 
> ...


I was attacked, not chased, as I actually was bitten by a black Labrador around the same age. Then a few months later bitten by another on exactly the same place on my thigh. Intelligently, I didn't develop an irrational fear of Labradors and then go on to propagate my belief across Internet forums, regardless of far more experienced and educated people telling me I was completely wrong.

From your last comment, I can see you're referring to Bull Terriers. I did explain in the post you quoted that the addition of the affix English that you inexplicably added was completely wrong, but I guess things need a while to sink in.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> Well I don't know about you, but being chased by a pack of 6 at 12 yrs old _really_ doesn't do much to make you like them very much.


See this is where I'm not understanding your mentality - and I'm trying to.

Every single dog person I know was bitten as a child. Many also bitten again as adults. 
I was bitten as a child by a fox terrier, my dog torn to shreds by two dobermans, my sister bitten by the same dobermans, my mom had to have reconstructive surgery on her hand after being badly bitten by a great pyr. Yet I don't fear a single one of these breeds. In fact dobies are one of my favorite breeds. Instead of fearing the breed, I chalked it up to individual dog.

So I do wonder what makes someone go from fearing the individual to fearing the entire breed?

So I'm going to ask, AGAIN:



ouesi said:


> Have you ever considered trying to educate yourself on what body language clues to look for in a dog that would alert you to potential aggressive behavior?
> 
> Like, instead of simply avoiding dogs based on appearance, you could avoid dogs based on behavior - and be much safer in the long run because of this knowledge.
> 
> For that matter, have you read any of the informative posts on this thread and taken any of it in? Have you attempted to learn anything from this thread? Has anything at all sunk in or are we just dealing with a narrow minded bigot with no intention of listening to reason?


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> I'm pretty sure a toy poodle maiming someone to death would be a freak occurrence. Sure others would think so too.


I'm sure, given the total number of dogs in homes, that any death caused by dogs is a freak occurence, especially with how dreadfully & violently some so called 'owners' treat their dogs. Also taking into account how many videos are posted on Youtube of laughing parents filming their toddlers tormenting their dogs, while completely ignoring the subtle signs of stress the dogs are displaying.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Wobbles would you be scared of this dog?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> Dunno, 25's a bit old to be called a child......


25  Someone that old who lives with their parents and yet she has the same logic as a teenager - truly fascinating


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> I'm pretty sure a toy poodle maiming someone to death would be a freak occurrence. Sure others would think so too.


Whether you or others think so or not is irrelevant. I wanted you to provide facts to back up your statement but I'm obviously wasting my time as you don't appear to know what a fact it. Not to mention that you won't be able to find any evidence to back up your bigoted views.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Wobbles would you be scared of this dog?


yeah she'd be scared of him ''coz iz a staff right''


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Galadriel17 said:


> Whether you or others think so or not is irrelevant. I wanted you to provide facts to back up your statement but I'm obviously wasting my time as you don't appear to know what a fact it. Not to mention that you won't be able to find any evidence to back up your bigoted views.


theres no evidence to back up her claims because she couldn't even tell you what half the dogs she don't like were bred for - other than explaining them away as ''fighting breeds''..


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> See this is where I'm not understanding your mentality - and I'm trying to.
> 
> Every single dog person I know was bitten as a child. Many also bitten again as adults.
> I was bitten as a child by a fox terrier, my dog torn to shreds by two dobermans, my sister bitten by the same dobermans, my mom had to have reconstructive surgery on her hand after being badly bitten by a great pyr. Yet I don't fear a single one of these breeds. In fact dobies are one of my favorite breeds. Instead of fearing the breed, I chalked it up to individual dog.
> ...


I know what behaviour to look out for in dogs. I also know that nothing that anyone says will ever convince me that sbt's are nice dogs. I do not like them, I'm very very afraid of them and I wouldn't go near one. I'd pick up my dog If I saw one coming or cross the road. If your terrified of something, your terrified of it, so you stay away. I can't believe people here think you have to like every single dog breed to be a dog lover, or that its wrong and impossible to be afraid of certain breeds. I've wasted enough of my Saturday on this, I'm off to somewhere with more sense, like the shed to clean my hamsters out, then walk the dog. Most people on here are physically incapable of seeing somebody else's viewpoint and opinions. Find someone else to rip into, hey that's ironic isn't it? The owners of the dogs that tear into others physically, do exactly the same themselves metaphorically.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> I'm off to somewhere with more sense, like the shed to clean my hamsters out, then walk the dog.


Most sensible thing you've ever said! Bye!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

:lol: Idiot child

25 my eye - I was 25 once on the internet too


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> I know what behaviour to look out for in dogs. I also know that nothing that anyone says will ever convince me that sbt's are nice dogs. I do not like them, I'm very very afraid of them and I wouldn't go near one. I'd pick up my dog If I saw one coming or cross the road. If your terrified of something, your terrified of it, so you stay away. I can't believe people here think you have to like every single dog breed to be a dog lover, or that its wrong and impossible to be afraid of certain breeds. I've wasted enough of my Saturday on this, I'm off to somewhere with more sense, like the shed to clean my hamsters out, then walk the dog. Most people on here are physically incapable of seeing somebody else's viewpoint and opinions. Find someone else to rip into, hey that's ironic isn't it? The owners of the dogs that tear into others physically, do exactly the same themselves metaphorically. Maybe dogs really do take after their owners afterall.


Well, there ya go....


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## Beth17 (Jun 5, 2012)

What a very strange and misguided view of the world. Going by Wobbles logic should my Boxers should be banned as well cause they have short hair, strong jaws, weigh over 30kg and just one can easily pin me down; I have no chance if they both decide to sit on me ut:

Oh and Sam is white so he must be extra scary


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Wobbles said:


> I know what behaviour to look out for in dogs. I also know that nothing that anyone says will ever convince me that sbt's are nice dogs. I do not like them, I'm very very afraid of them and I wouldn't go near one. I'd pick up my dog If I saw one coming or cross the road. If your terrified of something, your terrified of it, so you stay away. I can't believe people here think you have to like every single dog breed to be a dog lover, or that its wrong and impossible to be afraid of certain breeds. I've wasted enough of my Saturday on this, I'm off to somewhere with more sense, like the shed to clean my hamsters out, then walk the dog. Most people on here are physically incapable of seeing somebody else's viewpoint and opinions. Find someone else to rip into, hey that's ironic isn't it? The owners of the dogs that tear into others physically, do exactly the same themselves metaphorically.


different viewpoints have been put across and not in an aggressive way at all , you've posted all sorts of accusations , claims , without posting any fact apart from your own viewpoint , without realizing the dangerous ignorance you yourself have posted...maybe theres right in the saying ''ignorance is bliss'' because you really do seem to live in your own little bubble , which sure isn't healthy.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Beth17 said:


> What a very strange and misguided view of the world. Going by Wobbles logic should my Boxers should be banned as well cause they have short hair, strong jaws, weigh over 30kg and just one can easily pin me down; I have no chance if they both decide to sit on me ut:
> 
> Oh and Sam is white so he must be extra scary


IN MY OPINION there's a faulty gene in the white colouring which makes dogs extra vicious and aggressive!!!1

No links or owt mind - but it must be true because I think so


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

ouesi said:


> So I do wonder what makes someone go from fearing the individual to fearing the entire breed?


wow, is it really so hard to believe that if someone had a traumatic and painful experience at a young age that they might grow to fear the thing that caused it??
Maybe this person has developed a phobia againest certain dog breeds. I agree it wouldnt be rational to fear one type of dog over another but then again phobias arent rational are they?
IMO nowt as scary as a pack of rabid forumites on a rampage......those suckers will tear you to shreds!!
:lol:


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> IN MY OPINION there's a faulty gene in the white colouring which makes dogs extra vicious and aggressive!!!1
> 
> No links or owt mind - but it must be true because I think so


i feel the same about black dogs too , makes their teeth look bigger!!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> wow, is it really so hard to believe that if someone had a traumatic and painful experience at a young age that they might grow to fear the thing that caused it??
> Maybe this person has developed a phobia againest certain dog breeds. I agree it wouldnt be rational to fear one type of dog over another but then again phobias arent rational are they?
> IMO nowt as scary as a pack of rabid forumites on a rampage......those suckers will tear you to shreds!!
> :lol:


There's quite a difference between irrational fear and then making statements about how nobody should own them or people who own them are a certain way - one is just plain irrational and understandable and one is just small mindedness


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nagini said:


> i feel the same about black dogs too , makes their teeth look bigger!!


Like these fearsome beasts 










What's scarier to a teenager - black one with white teeth or one who is almost all white - who's to say!!!

Hard to believe but no animals were injured during or after the taking of that picture - not even a scratch - I suppose my status dog is faulty


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

tabulahrasa said:


> I'm still curious about why GSDs are ok and Rottweilers aren't as well...


Yup and same for RRs too .



catz4m8z said:


> wow, *is it really so hard to believe that if someone had a traumatic and painful experience at a young age that they might grow to fear the thing that caused it??
> Maybe this person has developed a phobia againest certain dog breeds. I agree it wouldnt be rational to fear one type of dog over another but then again phobias arent rational are they?*
> IMO nowt as scary as a pack of rabid forumites on a rampage......those suckers will tear you to shreds!!
> :lol:


This I can understand absolutely and sympathise with - but stating it's 'the norm' for all the breeds on the 'restricted' list that I posted to kill and maim is plain ridiculous . It would be nice to have evidence to support what is being put forward as absolute fact.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Yup and same for RRs too .
> 
> This I can understand absolutely and sympathise with - but stating it's 'the norm' for all the breeds on the 'restricted' list that I posted to kill and maim is plain ridiculous . It would be nice to have evidence to support what is being put forward as absolute fact.


I find it's hard to find evidence when none exists :001_tt2:


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Wobbles said:


> I know what behaviour to look out for in dogs. I also know that nothing that anyone says will ever convince me that sbt's are nice dogs. I do not like them, I'm very very afraid of them and I wouldn't go near one. I'd pick up my dog If I saw one coming or cross the road. If your terrified of something, your terrified of it, so you stay away. I can't believe people here think you have to like every single dog breed to be a dog lover, or that its wrong and impossible to be afraid of certain breeds. I've wasted enough of my Saturday on this, I'm off to somewhere with more sense, like the shed to clean my hamsters out, then walk the dog. Most people on here are physically incapable of seeing somebody else's viewpoint and opinions. Find someone else to rip into, hey that's ironic isn't it? The owners of the dogs that tear into others physically, do exactly the same themselves metaphorically.


If you genuinely knew how to look at behaviour in dogs then there would be no need to have a phobia regarding some dogs. If you're convinced in your opinion of sbt's and belive that no one can change that, then please do not pursue any career regarding them as you're not fit to do that. In fact if you think your opinions are right then please provide us all with the details of your dog grooming business so we can pass them on to like minded dog owners. I'm fairly sure they will avoid you like the plague. You haven't wasted just your Saturday, but everyone else's here. Enjoy your hamsters, there probably a lot more suitable for you, just try not to get scared by the white ones. Your last sentence is the most pathetic crap I've read in a long time.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Snoringbear said:


> If you genuinely knew how to look at behaviour in dogs then there would be no need to have a phobia regarding some dogs. If you're convinced in your opinion of sbt's and belive that no one can change that, then please do not pursue any career regarding them as you're not fit to do that. In fact if you think your opinions are right then please provide us all with the details of your dog grooming business so we can pass them on to like minded dog owners. I'm fairly sure they will avoid you like the plague. You haven't wasted just your Saturday, but everyone else's here. Enjoy your hamsters, there probably a lot more suitable for you, just try not to get scared by the white ones. Your last sentence is the most pathetic crap I've read in a long time.


Oh lordy I can't rep you again


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Snoringbear said:


> Enjoy your hamsters, there probably a lot more suitable for you, just try not to get scared by the white ones. Your last sentence is the most pathetic crap I've read in a long time.


hamsters really are vicious beasts wobbles wants to be careful locking herself in the shed with them


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## Beth17 (Jun 5, 2012)

Nagini said:


> hamsters really are vicious beasts wobbles wants to be careful locking herself in the shed with them


I'm actually far more wary handling a hamster than I am a big dog  Now hamster teeth I am scared of.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

Beth17 said:


> I'm actually far more wary handling a hamster than I am a big dog  Now hamster teeth I am scared of.


me too , i had one bite me once and it's bottom teeth somehow went straight down my thumb nail , was horrid and the pain was excruciating


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SixStar said:


> Wow, rather worrying someone in the dog profession could actually be so ignorant. Incredibly glad I do not use groomers if some are like you! What breeds do you refuse to do? Have you ever had a bad experience with them, or do they just ''look scary''?


I would estimate that half the dog population are in fact bull breeds, so a groomer would really not get much of a reputation by refusing to do them. Thankfully, most are short haired and probably don't often visit a groomer. I would hate the poor dog to get a complex by being handled by someone who is jumpy around them.



Phoolf said:


> IN MY OPINION there's a faulty gene in the white colouring which makes dogs extra vicious and aggressive!!!1
> 
> No links or owt mind - but it must be true because I think so


I was always under the impression, until I knew better, that white GSDs were vicious. It is another misconception, old wives' tale.

I must confess that I am not a lover of bull breeds but I am not afraid of them, far from it. As long as a dog is friendly, if he wants a fuss I am happy to oblige. I just think it is very sad that the ill informed newspapers have given a bad name to these perfectly normal dogs.

All dogs have their traits and it is up to the owner to learn those traits and work with them, no matter what the breed.


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

What has always boggled me is that the hunting breeds and terriers are breed to do a job, hunt and often kill/injure other animals. 
The breeds purpose seems to pale into insignificance until people start making excuses for disliking bull breeds. 
Even if a dog was breed just to kill other dogs surely it would need the same management I have of my bassets around wildlife? 
I would take a wild guess and say at some time or another half of the breeds we see in here have ancestors breed to kill something be it rat, rabbit, fox, deer etc. 
Some pastoral dogs like collies have been known to go rogue and killed livestock. Many other dog breeds are considered "sheep worriers". The simple solution being they are never let off lead around sheep. I find DA dogs worrying when they are not controlled properly but no more or less than any other breed with an instinct to kill any other animal. My lot get very worked up when they catch a scent or see an animal they like but it doesn't mean they can't also function as a family pet. 

My main concern is that dogs who are DA sometimes live in areas where they come into contact with off lead uncontrolled dogs often owned by idiots. I do think in these situations muzzles are necessary in the same way leads are necessary for many dogs in farmland. I wish there were areas to walk my dog offlead without worrying about sheep, foxes etc but sadly wishing doesn't make it so.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> wow, is it really so hard to believe that if someone had a traumatic and painful experience at a young age that they might grow to fear the thing that caused it??


Did you read my post you quoted here? 


ouesi said:


> See this is where I'm not understanding your mentality - and I'm trying to.
> 
> Every single dog person I know was bitten as a child. Many also bitten again as adults.
> I was bitten as a child by a fox terrier, my dog torn to shreds by two dobermans, my sister bitten by the same dobermans, my mom had to have reconstructive surgery on her hand after being badly bitten by a great pyr. Yet I don't fear a single one of these breeds. In fact dobies are one of my favorite breeds. Instead of fearing the breed, I chalked it up to individual dog.
> ...


I'm sorry but I don't get where you see me not believing wobbles or attacking her, unless telling someone you're trying to understand and questioning them is considered an attack? 


catz4m8z said:


> Maybe this person has developed a phobia againest certain dog breeds. I agree it wouldnt be rational to fear one type of dog over another but then again phobias arent rational are they?
> IMO nowt as scary as a pack of rabid forumites on a rampage......those suckers will tear you to shreds!!
> :lol:


Yes, which is why I ASKED straight from the horse's mouth if you will, what Wobbles found so terrifying about the white dog. Again, not seeing how asking someone questions and seeking to understand their point of view is an attack.

Personally I don't really care if someone is breedist or not. Not much I can do about it, nor is it really any of my business what someone else believes or how they think. 
However, if you're going to take your breedist attitude and try to enact laws that are going to affect ME directly, then yes, I'm going to now become involved with you. Make sense?


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> Is blue a Neapolitan mastiff? If he is he looks much better than the ones with all them awful wrinkles (which in that pic it doesn't look like he has). Way better. And healthier too.
> 
> Yes I'd be pretty afraid of the white dog, would not at all feel comfortable going into a garden if he came down the drive. Don't think I would of Blue though, I don't know, some things just make you feel uneasy and some don't.
> 
> Bull terriers, by which I mean stafforshire's, pitbulls, and to a lesser extent the proper English ones. The English ones I'm not half as afraid of.


Wobbles for crying out loud..my dog in my sig is a bull terrier ..that's a breed in itself..nothing else it is a bull terrier..not an English bull terrier ..A BULL TERRIER..when you mention bull terrier I take it you are talking about my fav. Breed of dog ..

Your driving me round the bend you really are !!!!


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> I know what behaviour to look out for in dogs.* I also know that nothing that anyone says will ever convince me that sbt's are nice dogs.*





Wobbles said:


> Most people on here are physically incapable of seeing somebody else's viewpoint and opinions.


Oh the irony.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

> Wobbles said:
> 
> 
> > Bull terriers, by which I mean stafforshire's, pitbulls, and to a lesser extent the proper English ones. The English ones I'm not half as afraid of.
> ...


Is it wrong that at this point I'm just giggling (slightly hysterically) at the ignorance and absolutely zero attempt to remedy it?

Let me google that for you


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

> Wobbles said:
> 
> 
> > I know what behaviour to look out for in dogs. I also know that nothing that anyone says will ever convince me that sbt's are nice dogs.
> ...


Alice FTW LOL


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> I know what behaviour to look out for in dogs. I also know that nothing that anyone says will ever convince me that sbt's are nice dogs. I do not like them, I'm very very afraid of them and I wouldn't go near one. I'd pick up my dog If I saw one coming or cross the road. If your terrified of something, your terrified of it, so you stay away. I can't believe people here think you have to like every single dog breed to be a dog lover, or that its wrong and impossible to be afraid of certain breeds. I've wasted enough of my Saturday on this, I'm off to somewhere with more sense, like the shed to clean my hamsters out, then walk the dog. Most people on here are physically incapable of seeing somebody else's viewpoint and opinions. * Find someone else to rip into, hey that's ironic isn't it? The owners of the dogs that tear into others physically, do exactly the same themselves metaphorically*.


Last edited today: reason offensive remark removed- really? Cause there's one right there highlighted.

I didn't flag any commment - didn't think i needed to.

Having a civilised debate about an issue and a comparison made to a tragic death is utterly disgusting. Shame on you Wobbles for comparing this debate to a terrible death and to be honest moderator- i know you guys work hard and toe a line but you've edited that comment and found that statement fit to stay in?

Maybe i missed something?


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

WOBBLES HAS TROWN A WOBBLER ! THREAD SHOULD BE CALLED WOBBLERS HERE !!! lol !!! she has sparked inspired so many here ! 

Why is it i think jealously that SOME people get ALL THE ATTENTION ? my DOGS do compete for MY attention i do add...so maybe we are not so different to dogs hey !!! lol !!! 

wow took me AGES to read the stuff since my outing to see the LAMAS and CAMELS in the field with my dogs...Who appeared slightly FEARFUL of such LARGE STRANGE animals i insisted on stroking growling a bit even !

now i did some nice pictures of that but am not putting them here as evidence that VISUAL PERCEPTION affects even my DOGS when faced with fearsome looking beasts for the first time as last night and now ! 

it takes TIME and EFFORT to CHANGE THEIR PERCEPTIONS !!!

oh dear they were NOT ON LEADS ! lol ! under my control nevertheless.

sigh. i suggest this thread has wandered into a BREED DISCUSSION a SINGLE point only of the KC STATEMENT title of this thread...being pedantic..and suggest another thread be started asking ARE THERE DANGEROUS BREEDS around ? INFORMATION VIEWS AND FACTS HERE PLEASE !

off i go cant find camera lead to get photos of the camels lamas and my dogs for i hope ANOTHER THREAD to post to !!! 

ps WHY is my bitch more interested in EATING LAMA DUNG than the LAMA ? she is supposed to be a SHEEPDOG ! launch irresistebly towards any movoing animal ! LOL !

ps emotions get heated...this is an emotive thread subject and many here and elsewhere are throwing wobblers...and we lash out in pain. when offended hurt. i see it that way.

i am trying to find something to laugh about. nothing in the death of JAde is laughable for sure. it is very very depressing. 
giving HUMAN is it called ANTHROPOMORPHISM ? to my dogs behaviour with camels and lamas just now...and using STEREOTYPE GENERALISATIONS ...FALCON being MALE ...SEXIST HEY ! STRUTTED LIKE A PEACOCK tail up facing the perceived by him BIGGER than him possible BULLIES and threat to me and growled a little then came tail wagging back looking at me for APPROVAL ! my SIMPERING GIRLY FEMALE Feja sat down sniffily staring at this herd of smellies and then TUCKED in like a GOURMET to their dung and was quite happy to then stand at my side thinking what a POOH smelling bunch of ******s those are ! I want to go back to the CAR it is RAINING and my fur is getting wet !

sigh. just trying to say STEREOTYPING is fun sometimes and not correct i dont know my dogs minds and just for fun anthropomorphised here to make a point.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Did you read my post you quoted here?
> 
> I'm sorry but I don't get where you see me not believing wobbles or attacking her, unless telling someone you're trying to understand and questioning them is considered an attack?
> Yes, which is why I ASKED straight from the horse's mouth if you will, what Wobbles found so terrifying about the white dog. Again, not seeing how asking someone questions and seeking to understand their point of view is an attack.
> ...


Make sense? erm....not really!
I was merely asking a question which you interpreted to mean I thought you were personally attacking someone. I was just playing devils advocate as I hate to see anybody ganged up on wether in person or on line. I find it odd how the thread has become about the opinions of one person and wether you find them misguided, wrong or uninformed I dont think they are doing it to be a troll or malicious. 
I wasnt singling you out just using your quote as an example....sorry, I would feel the same if everybody had jumped on a bully owner en masse and told them everything they thought was wrong!!


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> Make sense? erm....not really!
> I was merely asking a question which you interpreted to mean I thought you were personally attacking someone. I was just playing devils advocate as I hate to see anybody ganged up on wether in person or on line. I find it odd how the thread has become about the opinions of one person and wether you find them misguided, wrong or uninformed I dont think they are doing it to be a troll or malicious.
> I wasnt singling you out just using your quote as an example....sorry, I would feel the same if everybody had jumped on a bully owner en masse and told them everything they thought was wrong!!


Well, when you quote me it does kind of follow that you're responding to me....  

In any case, the thread has become about the opinions of Wobbles because sadly Wobbles is not alone in her opinions and her opinions from what I can tell are born in ignorance.

I'm not going to sit by and say nothing when someone is scaremongering and spreading misinformation. Because that's exactly how misinformation becomes 'fact' for many. Kind of like locking jaws and brains that get squeezed by too small skulls.

Fear breeds hate and hate is never good. "Nothing is to be feared, only understood" (Marie Curie). If I can help Wobbles and people who think like her UNDERSTAND certain breeds then I also believe I can help abate the fear and in turn the hate.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

This thread is ridiculous 
I expect it of the non dog-owning general public but honestly, I don't think you should own a dog if you really believe that certain breeds are more likely to attack you than others, it's not really a sign of someone who knows the first thing about dogs, is it.
Such a shame there's always one who needs to come on these threads spouting about dangerous and aggressive breeds, it's hard to have sympathy for anyone who has a phobia of certain breeds - you either like dogs or not.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

tiatortilla said:


> This thread is ridiculous
> I expect it of the non dog-owning general public but honestly, I don't think you should own a dog if you really believe that certain breeds are more likely to attack you than others, it's not really a sign of someone who knows the first thing about dogs, is it.
> Such a shame there's always one who needs to come on these threads spouting about dangerous and aggressive breeds, it's hard to have sympathy for anyone who has a phobia of certain breeds - you either like dogs or not.


It's hard to have sympathy with someone who seems to have a pattern to their threads on many topics- not just this one!!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> sigh. i suggest this thread has wandered into a BREED DISCUSSION a SINGLE point only of the KC STATEMENT title of this thread...being pedantic..and suggest another thread be started asking ARE THERE DANGEROUS BREEDS around ? INFORMATION VIEWS AND FACTS HERE PLEASE !


Tend to agree and let's face it, we all agree what has happened to Jade is a tragedy and something where effective steps need to be taken to reduce the chances of it happening again. I do not think you'll ever prevent the possibility unless you ban dogs.

We do have to balance things though. Prejudice against breeds, especially when it doesn't help the situation anyway only causes more harm and distress. I remember Woman dies from rottweiler bite after she refused to report her beloved pet | Metro News and the feeling that without the perception of specific dangerous breeds another life would not have been lost. Where people push this prejudice they do need to back up their argument.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

tiatortilla said:


> *This thread is ridiculous *I expect it of the non dog-owning general public but honestly, I don't think you should own a dog if you really believe that certain breeds are more likely to attack you than others, it's not really a sign of someone who knows the first thing about dogs, is it.
> Such a shame there's always one who needs to come on these threads spouting about dangerous and aggressive breeds, it's hard to have sympathy for anyone who has a phobia of certain breeds - you either like dogs or not.


I completely agree with your bold, highlighted statement (albeit not the rest).

I have no idea why the other post on this girl's death / mauling was removed, but can see no point in this thread now.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

tiatortilla said:


> This thread is ridiculous
> I expect it of the non dog-owning general public but honestly, I don't think you should own a dog if you really believe that certain breeds are more likely to attack you than others, it's not really a sign of someone who knows the first thing about dogs, is it.
> Such a shame there's always one who needs to come on these threads spouting about dangerous and aggressive breeds, *it's hard to have sympathy for anyone who has a phobia of certain breeds - you either like dogs or not.*


A genuine phobia I have plenty of sympathy for; many people have a phobia about certain breeds or size of dog. Made up 'facts' being spouted I do not.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Julesky said:


> It's hard to have sympathy with someone who seems to have a pattern to their threads on many topics- not just this one!!


What's that, just disagree with everyone for some attention? Lol.. 

On a serious note though, I grew up being scared of big dogs and if you can teach a 10 y/o that there's no reason to be more scared of big dogs that little dogs, you can teach a fully grown adult that a SBT won't bite them just because it's a SBT.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

ouesi said:


> In any case, the thread has become about the opinions of Wobbles because sadly Wobbles is not alone in her opinions


LOL. I think you'll find that on this thread, she is!!

Besides most people have a certain amount of prejudice or at least an opinion on various breeds and its daft to say that if you dont love all dogs equally then you dont love dogs. Its not like I expect everyone else to love my yappy little rat on a string as much as I do, I dont even expect them not to have preformed notions about them....


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Dogless said:


> A genuine phobia I have plenty of sympathy for; many people have a phobia about certain breeds or size of dog. Made up 'facts' being spouted I do not.


Sorry it should have been in quotation marks, I don't believe it's a phobia - I think that word is thrown around far too easily.
As I said in my above post too - I think if you can reason with a terrified child about dogs then you can reason with an adult who is scared because of misguided beliefs.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> LOL. I think you'll find that on this thread, she is!!


Yes but when I read the comments after the articles I realize that she is not at all alone 



catz4m8z said:


> Besides most people have a certain amount of prejudice or at least an opinion on various breeds and its daft to say that if you dont love all dogs equally then you dont love dogs. Its not like I expect everyone else to love my yappy little rat on a string as much as I do, I dont even expect them not to have preformed notions about them....


Opinion and prejudice are not the same thing. 
If people were to start lobbying to ban yappy little rats on a string just because they don't like them, and spouting made up statistics and creating myths to justify their prejudice, I'm pretty sure you might have something to say about it


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> LOL. I think you'll find that on this thread, she is!!
> 
> *Besides most people have a certain amount of prejudice or at least an opinion on various breeds and its daft to say that if you dont love all dogs equally then you dont love dogs. Its not like I expect everyone else to love my yappy little rat on a string as much as I do, I dont even expect them not to have preformed notions about them....[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I doubt someone so ingrained in their hatred would even want to be educated but this email is a fantastic well written article. 
What Causes Fatal Dog Attacks & How Can We Prevent Death by Dogs?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> People may think *I* am the antisocial one, but I just don't trust other owners to know how to manage their dogs. My dogs will not interact with dogs they don't know period. I don't know you or your dogs? My dogs will not be interacting. I don't care what the breed. I see another dog coming, I will shoo it away. That doesn't work, I will up the ante, but no, your loose dog is not coming up to mine for a sniff I don't care how much you shout "he's friendly" at me.
> My dogs know the drill, they have never been allowed to interact with strange dogs and as far as I can tell they have no interest in interacting with them either.


Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but just wanted to respond to this.

Hear Hear!

My dog and I are exactly the same. 

I think a reason the press and the scaremongering is successful is because of the 'will it happen to me' mentality of most of us humans, including those who don't like dogs at all.

When we read that a jack russel, labrador, chi etc has attacked and killed, we feel safe in the knowledge that we as adult humans would be able to fight the dog off if it attacked us, so we pass it by with maybe some sympathy for the attacked child and parents, or maybe even feeling self satisfied that it wouldn't happen to us, we wouldn't leave our child with the grandparent and their jack russell, so easily avoided.

When we read that a strong, bull breed dog with (hypothetical) locking jaws has attacked and killed, we feel vulnerable and if we don't like dogs, (or maybe if we don't like those type of dogs) we might feel that some kind of ban or control on those dogs in particular, or all dogs in general is warranted.

Me, I don't want my dog attacked by a hamster let alone another dog and the possible consequences from that, so I don't care if the dog is a chi or a great dane, I don't want it going for my dog. So if someone has a dog they can't recall, or know is likely to attack, then a responsible owner will work on the recall and keep their dog leashed and I promise to keep my dog well away from yours and not be a trigger.

I think controls on specific breeds, or an 'all dogs must be leashed and muzzled when out in public' types of rules, supposedly to prevent humans being savaged by dogs are equally ridiculous.

Most of the incidents would still have occurred anyway, as most of them were in the dogs' home when the owners weren't present, as the very good article pointed out and nothing to do with dangerous dogs being walked in public. It would seem the poor dogs in the Jade case weren't walked in public or otherwise.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

tabulahrasa said:


> but I always wonder what people who are only scared of certain breeds base their opinion on.


Previous experience in my case. Dobes worry me. I'm not absolutely terrified of them, wouldn't run screaming or anything like that but due to quite a few bad experiences with them as a child I'm definitely wary of them. Staffies worry me when I have my dog with me. Again down to multiple bad experiences. Shih Tzu type dogs I'm also wary of because of the sheer number of nasty ones I've met.

And while I know damn well that not all Dobes are psycho dogs just waiting for their chance to rip someone apart, not all Shih Tzus are nasty snappy little things and not all Staffies want to tear other dogs apart that knowledge doesn't override my actual experiences with the breeds. That said, I would happily let Spen play with a Staffie who was friendly and I have made friends with a couple of lovely Dobes, I do try not to let my experiences turn me against dogs I don't even know.

That isn't meant to offend anyone. I do not hate any breed of dog and certainly don't wish to see any breed wiped out or banned or believe any breed is inherently bad. It's just that personal experience with certain ones has left me warier of them than others.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Slightly off topic but it's something I've seen written on this thread a lot, do MOST people really dislike some breeds?
I'm really surprised by that, as an all round lover of dogs I genuinely can't think of an entire breed that I dislike, just seems odd to me.
There's ones I wouldn't own obviously but Idk, I wouldn't say that it's the norm for someone to dislike an entire breed from my experience.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

tiatortilla said:


> Slightly off topic but it's something I've seen written on this thread a lot, do MOST people really dislike some breeds?
> I'm really surprised by that, as an all round lover of dogs I genuinely can't think of an entire breed that I dislike, just seems odd to me.
> There's ones I wouldn't own obviously but Idk, I wouldn't say that it's the norm for someone to dislike an entire breed from my experience.


Think there's been a thread on this before but maybe a new one if i'm wrong? I think most stated individual preferences but didn't necessarily hate any


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

tiatortilla said:


> Slightly off topic but it's something I've seen written on this thread a lot, do MOST people really dislike some breeds?
> I'm really surprised by that, as an all round lover of dogs I genuinely can't think of an entire breed that I dislike, just seems odd to me.
> There's ones I wouldn't own obviously but Idk, I wouldn't say that it's the norm for someone to dislike an entire breed from my experience.


Like Sarah, I don't dislike entire breeds, but am wary of some from past experiences. More than willing to judge an individual of that breed on it's own merit, but am just more cautious. I have had people saying that they are afraid of my dogs, have never met a nice one etc. That is OK by me too as long as they are rational and polite.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Julesky said:


> I doubt very highly this person would say such a thing in the real world and if so they they need a long hard look in the mirror because that kind of confrontational remark smacks more of their aggression than anyone elses.


I doubt the situation would even come up in real life because it would be one person arguing againest 20 others who all held the opposing view! I would hope that the 20 would realiese they had won by numbers and just walk off!
I also doubt that any Daily Mail style rants or knee jerk reactions will result in any more breeds being banned. It seems to me that opinion is being swayed more in favour of stricter dog controls in general.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Like Sarah, I don't dislike entire breeds, but am wary of some from past experiences. More than willing to judge an individual of that breed on it's own merit, but am just more cautious. I have had people saying that they are afraid of my dogs, have never met a nice one etc. That is OK by me too as long as they are rational and polite.


That's fine and makes sense though, I meant more like, without reason? Idk just a few posts made it sound like that was normal.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> I doubt the situation would even come up in real life because it would be one person arguing againest 20 others who all held the opposing view! I would hope that the 20 would realiese they had won by numbers and just walk off!
> I also doubt that any Daily Mail style rants or knee jerk reactions will result in any more breeds being banned. It seems to me that opinion is being swayed more in favour of stricter dog controls in general.


Aye- but on a forum you address a group- you miss my point.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Like Sarah, I don't dislike entire breeds, but am wary of some from past experiences. More than willing to judge an individual of that breed on it's own merit, but am just more cautious. I have had people saying that they are afraid of my dogs, have never met a nice one etc. That is OK by me too as long as they are rational and polite.


I agree with Sarah and your comments- no specifics from me but i defo have been wary of plenty of dogs based on their body language with mine- and so i defo have watched for them when out!


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Meezey said:


> I doubt someone so ingrained in their hatred would even want to be educated but this email is a fantastic well written article.
> What Causes Fatal Dog Attacks & How Can We Prevent Death by Dogs?


dogs owner was not present at the time of the fatal attack

SUPERB ARTICLE i repeat here again....

AND THE KENNEL CLUB STATEMENT ADDRESSED THIS AND SAID KIDS TO BE SUPERVISED BY ADULTS WHEN WITH DOGS !

sigh

we need REMINDERS for sure ! we learn LIKE OUR DOGS from REPEATED LESSONS AND EXPERIENCES !

ok tonight i go back to ? THE CAMELS AND LAMAS to repeat the experience of smelling them and not fearing them to my dogs who seemed a LITTLE afraid or wary of them yes...not KNOWING for SURE what was on their minds.


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

I think any breed in certain circumstances could be aggressive, but whether they are capable of killing a child or adult I really don't know. I dont particularly like certain breeds, but thats from my own past frightening experiences, it wouldnt stop me from greeting them so long as they are with responsible adults, but it would be another question if I met an unfriendly yobbo and his dog , swaggering about with his dog off lead, sending out vibes that both he and his dog are not to be messed with. 

Today I met a 2 year old Cocker Spaniel called Lilly, and she clearly had not be socialised or trained, because the first thing she did on meeting Alfie my 4 year old Schnauzer and myself was to growl at him aggressively, when her owner told her off she curled her lip up to the owner, and then proceeded to then attack a female dog that happened to come along, so to my mind this is an aggressive dog, that needs taking to training classes pronto, as she is an accident waiting to happen. My Grandfather always had Cockers, but they were always obedient and not aggressive at all.

Some facts I read in the paper that shocked me were that last year 210,000 people were attacked by dogs. Jade is the 9th person to be killed by a dangerous dog since 2005. 

From 2016 every dog will have to be identified by a chip, but how can this new law stop aggressive dogs from attacking people. 

Would it not be more appropriate for owners to attend training classes and achieve a certificate at the end of the course, (something like us passing a driving test, ) wouldnt this go a longer way to achieve the aims that the Government are seeking, than imposing laws for breeders to implant chips, in all puppies they breed which will achieve no purpose at all. As most responsible owners ensure this happens when they buy a puppy in anycase.

I think it is devastating for any Mother to lose a child but under these circumstances it most be horrific, and for it to be caused by MANS BEST FRIEND, is very, very sad indeed. 

Some people, somewhere are doing something wrong, and isnt it up to all of us as responsible DOG OWNERS, to try and get it sorted before it all gets out of hand.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Julesky said:


> I agree with Sarah and your comments- no specifics from me but i defo have been wary of plenty of dogs based on their body language with mine- and so i defo have watched for them when out!


I've definitely been wary of individual dogs before. I've never had any particularly bad experiences with any dogs but I can't imagine that I'd then be wary of the whole breed if I did rather than just that dog. We'll see I guess!
I'm just thinking out loud, you can all ignore this


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

mummyschnauzer said:


> Some people, somewhere are doing something wrong, and isnt it up to all of us as responsible DOG OWNERS, to try and get it sorted before it all gets out of hand.


responsible dog owners have tried to drum into people for years that some breeds really aren't suitable for some families/households. thing is , people do exactly what they want to do , you can't stop them - there's so many , many things that could be done but who and where are the funds coming from to enforce these things? responsible dog owners in general can't be responsible for the way others choose to rear/train/raise their dogs , we can only advise which usually falls on deaf ears as it has always done.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

tiatortilla said:


> I've definitely been wary of individual dogs before. I've never had any particularly bad experiences with any dogs but I can't imagine that I'd then be wary of the whole breed if I did rather than just that dog. We'll see I guess!
> I'm just thinking out loud, you can all ignore this


It's not a conscious decision to be wary of a breed  I think it's actually a perfectly natural response to be wary of something you've had more bad experiences than good with. I don't have a mindless hatred of any of the breeds I've had multiple bad experiences with but while I know that the individuals I've met aren't the norm those personal experiences carry more weight with me than what any number of posts on the internet can. Purely because they're my personal experiences. If that makes any sense. I know what I mean but it may well be as clear as mud to others lol.


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

^ No, no I didn't mean it to sound like it wasn't a sensible reaction! As I said to Dogless I think it makes sense, but I just don't know if I personally would have that reaction - I think logic would take over for me.
Just as an example when I was scared of dogs as a kid, there was a GSD and a Rottie on my street that both went insane when you walked past and I was terrified of both, but when I got over being scared of dogs, I wasn't scared of either breed.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> It's not a conscious decision to be wary of a breed  I think it's actually a perfectly natural response to be wary of something you've had more bad experiences than good with. I don't have a mindless hatred of any of the breeds I've had multiple bad experiences with but while I know that the individuals I've met aren't the norm those personal experiences carry more weight with me than what any number of posts on the internet can. Purely because they're my personal experiences. If that makes any sense. I know what I mean but it may well be as clear as mud to others lol.


Totally get it. I do.

I think all too often the reason the dog or breed has been an issue is overlooked. In the wrong hands and dog can be ruined/mismanaged (pre birth with crap breeding as well as post birth).

It's people who refuse to accept that the issue is way deeper than just a breed/dog that grind my gears!

(not assuming or inferring you do- just my response to your post  )


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

We all know any dog can do damage and any dog can show a different side in certain situations. I know I am never afraid of a dog when it has an owner with it but I have to admit a lone dog would make me uneasy - whatever breed, unless it was a small dog because I have two feet and one would be used to get it off.

I saw a side to Flynn only a couple of days ago with next doors window cleaner, although he doesn't react to the man he does react to his ladder  I usually fetch him in but thought I would stay with him and see if he could be calm - since this guy has been calling once a month for nearly five years. He was okay with the guy talking over the fence while up his ladder but when he got down and all Flynn could see was a moving ladder going past the fence he went a little crazy. His ears were back, his body arched and his tail right between his legs, he was jumping back and forward at the fence (6 ft) and you could easily see how nervous he was. He didn't actually touch the fence but I have no doubt if he were that afraid of something with no barrier in between he would attack - through fear more than anything else. It was quite scary really as Flynn is generally a laid back guy who doesn't spook easily but this was too much for him.

I put a slip lead on him and stayed there because I wanted him to see there was nothing to be afraid of and he calmed down but now I will make sure he's not in the garden when this guy is around - if only because I wonder what could happen if this guy were to somehow end up over my fence, or Flynn were to lunge and somehow break the fence. Both highly unlikely but that was a Flynn I didn't know existed!

If I left him outside to intimidate a man who is just going about his daily business I would be an irresponsible owner and no one should feel threatened by your dog, unless of course they are trying to steal it which after that day I doubt Flynn would allow anyone to do. 

My point is - even a dog you think you know inside out is an animal and could at any time act out of character so should always be supervised around people, kids even more so.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Julesky said:


> Totally get it. I do.
> 
> I think all too often the reason the dog or breed has been an issue is overlooked. In the wrong hands and dog can be ruined/mismanaged (pre birth with crap breeding as well as post birth).
> 
> ...


Ditto to the grinding gears


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## Wyrekin (Sep 10, 2012)

I'm wary of all breeds. I've only been badly bitten by two dogs one was a bull mastiff who decided having let me in his room he actually didn't want me there and he made sure he got hold of me, the other was my own terrier x which was quite recent...

I used to be very handsy with dogs but experience has taught me most don't actually like this, certainly from strangers. I work in rescue kennels and I probably come across as quite stand offish because unless the dog gives me very clear signals it wants a stroke I will not touch it also I will not approach it unless I really have to, I'd rather it came to me. I'm like this with all new dogs in, visiting dogs and even my friends dogs. I build a bond gradually allowing the dogs to make the decisions to a certain extent. 

I am more wary of bull mastiffs, I can't help the fact my heart rate speeds up and my stomach flips when I encounter one because the experience I went through was truly terrifying. My head is telling me to not be so stupid but my body has generally gone in to flight mode. For this reason I avoid them until I am more comfortable and confident with that particular individual, which doesn't normally take long. This isn't because I don't like them but because my body will give off signals to the dog that say I am nervous. The dog will pick up on this and is likely to respond with unsure behaviour since it doesn't know why or what I am afraid of. I deliberately don't put the dog in the situation of dealing with a nervous person because it's not fair to them and I am more likely to get a negative response from a them. 

I do not think they should be banned because of this or any other breed for that matter. My experience was unfortunate but the dog actually showed remarkable control, if it hadn't I wouldn't be here now. I actually think the experience gave me a fresh outlook on dogs and has made me pay more attention to body language than before; I'm not, however, advocating that everyone should go out and get themselves bitten


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## mollydog07 (May 26, 2012)

I apologised to the owner of an akita that i see reguarly on my walks with my girls.i put mine both on leash when i see her approach,her boy is never offlead.she said he wouldnt have a problem with my two as their girls,but he would with males.i still wouldnt take the chance.its the power of certain breeds that make me wary.maybe different if i personally knew and trusted the dog.i mean if a poodle is approaching offlead i wouldnt hook mine up,i sorta felt guilty that i,m contributing to a fear of a breed.hence apology.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

tiatortilla said:


> ^ No, no I didn't mean it to sound like it wasn't a sensible reaction! As I said to Dogless I think it makes sense, but I just don't know if I personally would have that reaction - I think logic would take over for me.
> Just as an example when I was scared of dogs as a kid, there was a GSD and a Rottie on my street that both went insane when you walked past and I was terrified of both, but when I got over being scared of dogs, I wasn't scared of either breed.


I think maybe it's the number of bad experiences compared to good experiences that's done it for me. I've not met many Dobes but 5 of the ones I have met were dog and human aggressive. Another was what I can only describe as insane. He is the only dog I have been truly afraid of and he was actually put to sleep because of how unpredictable he was. Rupert had a Dobe friend who was really sweet though. Same sort of thing with Staffies. I've met a hell of a lot of them and all but 2 were dog aggressive. Logically I know not all Dobes or Stafies are going to be that way but personal experience does override that logic for me. Initially anyway.

As I say, I don't hate any breed, don't want to see any banned or anything like that and I can overcome that initial "oh god" moment and look at the individual dog rather than just the breed. Nor do I think those dogs behaved the way they do simply because of their breed.


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

Nagini said:


> responsible dog owners have tried to drum into people for years that some breeds really aren't suitable for some families/households. thing is , people do exactly what they want to do , you can't stop them - there's so many , many things that could be done but who and where are the funds coming from to enforce these things? responsible dog owners in general can't be responsible for the way others choose to rear/train/raise their dogs , we can only advise which usually falls on deaf ears as it has always done.


Maybe writing or e-mailing our Counsellors, and voicing our concerns as responsible dog owner's would be of some benefit, if enough people write in, surely they cannot ignore all of us, I lost a child through illness, and that was bad enough but to lose a child by the aggressiveness of dog/dogs, that would be mind boggling. It could have been any one of our children, no point in saying it cannot happen, because it has, albeit to someone else's child.

Laws have to change to protect our children, life is a very precious thing.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

mummyschnauzer said:


> Maybe writing or e-mailing our Counsellors, and voicing our concerns as responsible dog owner's would be of some benefit, if enough people write in, surely they cannot ignore all of us, I lost a child through illness, and that was bad enough but to lose a child by the *aggressiveness of dog/dogs*, that would be mind boggling. It could have been any one of our children, no point in saying it cannot happen, because it has, albeit to someone else's child.
> 
> Laws have to change to protect our children, life is a very precious thing.


lots of people have already done this regarding BSL , including myself. many folks including myself weren't listened to although emails were read and acknowledged with the usual drivvel.
i certainly won't write in to anyone voicing my concerns regarding certain breeds , that could potentially kick off a catastrophic chain of events while all this is still fresh in the news , i refuse to be party to that.

it's not the dogs anyone needs to target. it's the lack of responsible ownership - and anyone is going to have one hell of a job policing this with an estimated 10 million dogs in the UK.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

mummyschnauzer said:


> Would it not be more appropriate for owners to attend training classes and achieve a certificate at the end of the course, (something like us passing a driving test, ) wouldn't this go a longer way to achieve the aims that the Government are seeking, than imposing laws for breeders to implant chips, in all puppies they breed which will achieve no purpose at all. As most responsible owners ensure this happens when they buy a puppy in anycase.


It's all a matter of effective regulations which can and will be enforced. The main trouble you have is those people most likely to have out of control dogs are ones which would potentially avoid any regulation. How many people are driving about without any car insurance, despite laws saying it is a requirement? How much more complicated would it be to try to enforce dog training? How could you ensure trainers actually only pass dogs "up to scratch" and what happens to dogs/owners who don't pass?

The only way forward in my mind is to push the idea and make sure it's integrated into society that people need to be responsible. Not only for their own actions but when dog owners that they are responsible for the actions of their dogs. BSL by the way does the opposite, providing scapegoats and diverting attention from the real problem. Italy and Holland have both repealed their BSL legislation as it didn't work, Holland having a variation of the "type" BSL currently used by the UK. Don't know what the alternative is now in Holland is but in Italy they are working closely with vets who can add dogs to a "dangerous dogs list". These dogs are required to be muzzled in public no matter what breed. All dogs are required to be on a leash in urban areas and a muzzle must be carried, not necessarily worn by the dog. Doesn't unfortunately help in cases like poor Jade's but making owners aware of their responsibility no matter where their dogs are is essential. Only by doing this do I feel progress can be made. There's no magic fix as far as I can see.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Royoyo said:


> I think your comment is pretty rude.


My comment is a mild fairy tale compared to some on this thread


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

tiatortilla said:


> ^ No, no I didn't mean it to sound like it wasn't a sensible reaction! As I said to Dogless I think it makes sense, but I just don't know if I personally would have that reaction - *I think logic would take over for me.*
> Just as an example when I was scared of dogs as a kid, there was a GSD and a Rottie on my street that both went insane when you walked past and I was terrified of both, but when I got over being scared of dogs, I wasn't scared of either breed.


I'm perfectly capable of employing logic, please don't insult me by assuming that I'm some daft woman who reacts with hysteria to any bad experience.

My wariness of one breed (very different from fear) in particular is perfectly logical and legitimate having never had a positive experience with the breed when with a dog. Whether it be my dogs causing the reactions they get, whether I've been unlucky or whether a combination of both I don't know, but logic dictates to me that I avoid that breed when with my dogs but not without UNLESS something in the body language of either party gives me reason to believe all is fine.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

Oh dear. I really don't know where to start with this. Or even if I should reply, but for what it's worth, here's my thoughts...

This is my foster dog, Toby.










He bears more than a passing resemblance to a certain dog that's been in the news the last couple of days. But Toby is ace, we've spent a good few hours over the past few days sitting in a Morrison's raising money for the dog rescue that "saved" him.














































And honestly, if we treat him well and do the right thing with him, and he's well trained an socialised, he's not going to "turn". But I'm pretty sure I could easily make him an nasty pasty. And he is a bull breed. And white.

All that said, my other half doesn't like bull breeds at all, but really, when he's actually spent time with one (neither of us really have much experience - I don't have any friends who own any) even he understands that he's just a normal puppy.

All dogs have breed specific tendencies, all can be badly bred/reared/treated and this will manifest itself in a number of ways - and also all dogs have personalities too, and there are bad apples (not a good way to put it, but I've had a glass of wine) - and there are some dogs which aren't necessarily suited to urban family life (I'm thinking large European flock guardians here).

But I do think, that little Toby's life isn't yet mapped out - but he's full of potential to be an amazing dog as long as the humans get it right!!

Being scared of stuff I can understand, being uneducated about certain things I can understand to some extent, I think some of these breeds mentioned you need to meet in real life to see what they're really like - but blaming behaviour on a colour? I don't really get that - surely nobody believes hair colour affects personality?!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I think I might be just a teeny tiny bit in love with Toby xxx


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## Mrs White (Jul 18, 2011)

Toby reminds me of a certain Mrs White, when she was a nipper...then she matured into this brute of a lass


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

missnaomi said:


> Oh dear. I really don't know where to start with this. Or even if I should reply, but for what it's worth, here's my thoughts...
> 
> This is my foster dog, Toby.
> 
> ...


So that's Rosie, Ringo Dingo AND Toby I gotta steal  need a bigger car...

ETA I think it's great what you guys are doing by not only fostering dogs, but also educating people on all types of dogs by allowing them to meet Toby and judge the dog for themselves in the flesh. I hope in light of recent events, Toby made at least one person re-think any pre judgements (is that even a word? I've had a cider after a hard shift ) they had on bull breeds and may just give them a second chance.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2013)

For those of you who have FB, this is Apollo, the deaf pit bull. He is one lucky boy, he was adopted by a fabulous woman who does everything from Schutzhund with him to nose work to therapy dogs. He is a truly amazing dog :001_wub:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.535554526470629.142701.328022450557172&type=1

And this is Nina, another awesome pit bull. She too is a rescue, she does Schutzhund, therapy dogs, and whatever else you need her to do. Cool, cool dog...

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.99452271896.78223.708266896&type=3


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## tiatortilla (Oct 1, 2012)

Dogless said:


> I'm perfectly capable of employing logic, please don't insult me by assuming that I'm some daft woman who reacts with hysteria to any bad experience.
> 
> My wariness of one breed (very different from fear) in particular is perfectly logical and legitimate having never had a positive experience with the breed when with a dog. Whether it be my dogs causing the reactions they get, whether I've been unlucky or whether a combination of both I don't know, but logic dictates to me that I avoid that breed when with my dogs but not without UNLESS something in the body language of either party gives me reason to believe all is fine.


I'm not quite sure how to respond to this  I thought I'd spoken to you enough on here so that you'd know that I didn't think that at all and I also thought I'd made it quite clear I wasn't trying to insult anyone so I'm not quite sure what warranted that response...
As to the second part, I already said that I thought that was a logical response (once to you, and once to Sarah), I just don't know if I'd feel that way myself, as I have no problem with any of the breeds I've had negative experiences of - that's all I'm saying, I didn't realise my feeling that way would infer that I have a problem with anyone who feels differently.

Just to be clear, seeing as it seems to be my use of the word logic that has offended you, I meant that I think I'd continue to base my opinions on factual evidence rather than anecdotal (in your case, your own experience) evidence. It *really* wasn't supposed to be insulting though.
Editing again, as I still don't think it's coming across right, I don't mean to say that one way of thinking is any more or less valid than the other, but people do have different ways of thinking and I'm fairly sure mine is different to yours in this instance.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

tiatortilla said:


> I'm not quite sure how to respond to this  I thought I'd spoken to you enough on here so that you'd know that I didn't think that at all and I also thought I'd made it quite clear I wasn't trying to insult anyone so I'm not quite sure what warranted that response...
> As to the second part, I already said that I thought that was a logical response (once to you, and once to Sarah), I just don't know if I'd feel that way myself, as I have no problem with any of the breeds I've had negative experiences of - that's all I'm saying, I didn't realise my feeling that way would infer that I have a problem with anyone who feels differently.
> 
> Just to be clear, seeing as it seems to be my use of the word logic that has offended you, I meant that I think I'd continue to base my opinions on factual evidence rather than anecdotal (in your case, your own experience) evidence. It *really* wasn't supposed to be insulting though.
> Editing again, as I still don't think it's coming across right, I don't mean to say that one way of thinking is any more or less valid than the other, but people do have different ways of thinking and I'm fairly sure mine is different to yours in this instance.


Possibly it was all in the wording - it was saying that you understood my reaction but that "logic would take over for you" that I found fairly insulting - it suggests that my response is far from logical. I am guessing that our opinions do differ  but I'd say that my evidence was subjective rather than anecdotal. That was my point - I haven't listened to other folk saying that a breed is bad and telling me all sorts of stories, I have gained the evidence from my own experience. This experience is what I form my opinions upon.

As a red car driver, if someone told me that blue car drivers were awful and you were sure to have a crash if you went near them, as it had happened to friends of friends of theirs a few times and I then went on to avoid blue cars I'd say that I was responding to anecdotal evidence. If I had had a crash or near miss with a blue car 100% of the time that I had been out driving in my red car and then avoided them until I actually saw one being driven carefully I'd say that I was acting based upon subjective evidence - my own experience. By your reasoning you could say that if you were driving the red car "logic would take over" and dictate that you would totally disregard the fact that you had had an incident 100% of the time with blue car drivers. To me that isn't logical at all, defensive driving is - that's why our opinions differ I think, I'd rather 'drive defensively' when walking my dogs in this case rather than chance things with the one particular breed. That doesn't mean that either of us is 'right', just that our ideas of what is logical is different.

You say that you have no hard feelings towards the breeds you've had negative experiences of which is great - I have no hard feelings towards those who have bitten me and also bitten / attacked Kilo drawing blood as _one - offs_ at all. I have no hard feelings actually towards the one breed in particular that I am thinking of, wish them no harm at all and am sure they can be wonderful in the right hands, I just choose to be wary as our bad experiences with them haven't been one -offs.

Hope that makes some sense? I'm having trouble explaining what I have been trying to get at all along.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

> Another example of misreading, I think, different perceptions colouring actual meanings.





> Myshkin said:-
> 
> Ooh, I like what you did there!


you see it sometimes then?


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Meezey said:


> I think I might be just a teeny tiny bit in love with Toby xxx


Me too! Look at that little face! And those floppy ears! And that speckled nose!!! :blushing:


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Dogless said:


> question aimed at you so needed to quote you somehow ha


*Stupid question alert*
what does NOI stand for? ha


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

MrRustyRead said:


> *Stupid question alert*
> what does NOI stand for? ha


No idea how you got my name on that quote . No idea what NOI stands for .

Do you mean NI or ROI? Northern Ireland / Republic of Ireland if so!


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Dogless said:


> No idea how you got my name on that quote . No idea what NOI stands for .
> 
> Do you mean NI or ROI? Northern Ireland / Republic of Ireland if so!


oh i couldnt find the post i was talking about so put what i did there so you knew i was aiming the question at you.

yes! ROI! dont have a clue where i got NOI from ha i think i need to go back to bed ha


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

missnaomi said:


> Oh dear. I really don't know where to start with this. Or even if I should reply, but for what it's worth, here's my thoughts...
> 
> This is my foster dog, Toby.
> 
> ...


HEAR HEAR ! COLOUR does NOT affect personality ! but i DARE inform here that even in the EXPERT DOGWORLD of my breed the BELGIAN SHEPHERD for example it was argued in the past that certain colours of dogs meant they were more STUPID ! ja ! and today BLACK is a word associated with negative things and kids in particular are afraid of the dark and black dogs more than white ones.

I MUST NOT RAMBLE ! i have been told and agree...but seeing more heated exchanges of rudeness offenses taken here on this HOT SUBJECT i must add...

the KENNEL CLUB statement....the topic of this threat...not only stated NO DOGS WITHOUT SUPERVISION around kids...but also it was AGAINST the BREED BAN laws due to those very laws making such breeds attractive to nutter owners...

whether the breeds are or are NOT as PERCEIVED the truth in such a KC statement is very wise.

however, there is a ban on GUNS in the UK ...unlike the USA...if we consider a dog is like a gun a POTENTIAL death risk.

sigh. it is not easy.

oh dam it i will add my ramble...but put my MAIN wished for points above in case people get bored by a long post...

..................;

but a WAR kicked off when comments made by not just wobbles but a few others suggesting in different strengths of words that SOME BREEDS were in their view MORE of a problem risk than others and they didnt LIKE the breeds AND found them UGLY or words like that!!!

HILARIOUS ! that was an accident waiting to happen in my view ! meaning ? make a criticism of something cherished by someone else and you are going to get into hot water ! attacking back with attacks on the person making the view was bound to happen !

HILARIOUS ! excuse me i did write that in there and am SURE it offended some that i found it funny even as to them it was a serious matter ! but i was laughing at the DOGFIGHT as i called it between humans ! lol !!! which is far less serious due to being WORDS online than a physical one...even though STICKS AND STONES CAN BREAK MY BONES BUT WORDS WILL NEVER HURT me slogan is not actually true we all can still feel PAIN at words said even if hit so many times we like myself have become immune to a large extent some might even say INSENSITIVE to personal attacks. that can make us HARD people with no sympathy for others in fact. only our own. being selfish. as we all are sometimes.

the one comment i recall liking the most tfor making me laugh here was someone said a dog owner on a dog forum criticising other peoples dogs was going to be blasted and attacked for that just as anyone criticising SNAKE REPTILES owners on a reptile forum would be for suggesting reptile owners were nutters !!

HILARIOUS ! maybe i should go on the REPTILE FORUM and say...whoever owns a SNAKE is a NUTTER ! lol !!! well ? there is a view of that out there ! is it unreasonable to put it on a reptile forum ? if trying to disuade people from owning them ? a matter of opinion i say to that ... not being interested enough in reptiles i am not going to launch into that i add just to annoy them...so long as their PYTHONS dont crawl up my bath pipes one day to find some tasty human flesh hey ! THEN i might have something albeit a bit LATE to say on a REPTILE FORUM yes !!! hilarious !

excuse my ramble i am only trying as an insensitive maybe person to find something amusing in this tragedy. not the tragedy i add. Our and others reactions and need to get it off our chests. because it hurts yes. 
__________________

I AM AGAINST BANS ON BREED SPECIFICS I END SAYING AS I AGREE THE KC STATEMENT THAT IT ENDS UP ATTRACTING IDIOT MUPPET MACHO MEANING SEXIST MALE UNREASONABLE OWNERS OF ANY DOG !

and in favour of PERMITS LICENSES TO OWN ANY DOG ! some people should not even own CARS out there ! passed tests and are NUTTERS ! but thank goodness there are some controls over them out there ! and MORE CONTROLS are needed on MUPPET HUMANS out there owning ANY DOG AT ALL

ps LOVELY PICS OF LOVELY DOG ! it is WHITE ! not BLACK AS NIGHT LIKE MINE ! who make kids more fearful ! due to PERCEPTION i add


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I have heard it said that the colour in some breeds does make a difference, the chocolate lab is said to be much harder to train (i know a very docile one) tho, and cocker rage was found in the solid colours most commonly black. I dont know if there is anything in this at all.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

i dont know that depth of genetics in dogs or people...i have read white in dogs can be linked to physical issues like deafness...that bluemerle in some breeds linked to physical diseases...But not anything about MENTAL capactities of dogs or people due to colour...as i stated that view was held many years ago in my breed without evidence to suppport it just opinions then...

i know therefore of colours as those examples i stated being linked to physical health issues but of no colour being linked to MENTAL or CARACTER issue based on colour alone. the fact that choc labs are generlised as to difficult to train may be due to selection only within their gene pool limited and so inheriting caracters of a limited selection of dogs...rather than the colour gene itself being the issue for behaviour issues.

so my view on caracter is more that pedigree dogs restricting their selection for breeding in a small pool of dogs who have caracter issues or traits just happens therefore to give the colour variety of that dog a reputation rather than it being the colour gene itself affecting the caracter.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Interesting take on a story from the US, & IMO a fine example of breedist propaganda:

Article in the Daily Mail yesterday:
Dog eats boys finger, dad shoots dog and then retrieves finger while ambulance arrives | Mail Online

The photo from the article:









Article in International Business Times today:
Wolf-Mix Dog Shot Dead After Biting Off Florida Boy's Finger - IBTimes UK

Description of the dog from the article:


> The dead dog was called Sassy - a Malamute-wolf cross-breed.



___________________________________________________________​


haeveymolly said:


> I have heard it said that the colour in some breeds does make a difference, the chocolate lab is said to be much harder to train (i know a very docile one) tho, and cocker rage was found in the solid colours most commonly black. I dont know if there is anything in this at all.


In rats it's believed that the non-agouti gene makes them more docile, a couple of studies were done into it:
Experimental Evidence: Coat Color and Temperament in Rats

In my own personal experience, I have only had 2 rats in 20 years that I can really describe as 'aggressive'- Snape & Ailis, both of these contradict the studies as they were black (non-agouti gene) 

Other experiments into coat colour were observed by accident in Belyaev's experimental breeding programme of foxes bred for fur, it was discovered that selecting for docility brought about changes in coat colour & patterns in just a few generations.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Frankly I think most people have preconceived notions to certain breeds and to a certain extent prejudices too. Ive heard alot of people defend 'devil dogs' by saying that its small/fluffy/toy/terrier types that they have found to be more aggressive and the larger dogs are much calmer (which is of course a prejudice!).
Esp if you are walking your own dog you will be making judgements about other dogs and some of those judgements will be based on breed characteristics. For example if your dog will enjoy 'boxing' with a Boxer or extreme chase with a Greyhound. Also if the breed might get too excited with your small dog or likely to try and dominant your big dog. 
Its just a matter of tempering your prejudice with common sense. I can remember one woman warning me about an aggressive Staff in the park once who attacked her terrier and that I should stay away as it would eat my lot. I watched her dog prance up to mine and attempt to mount them, paw at them and chase them around in an attempt to dominant them and made an educated guess about what had happened! Sure enough when I met the Staff he was a lovely polite boy who obviously didnt appreciate bad manners!
I am still wary of Staffs though, even though Ive met many and not seen a bad one yet.Its just I have very breakable dogs and they are built like tanks!!


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> In rats it's believed that the non-agouti gene makes them more docile, a couple of studies were done into it:
> Experimental Evidence: Coat Color and Temperament in Rats
> 
> In my own personal experience, I have only had 2 rats in 20 years that I can really describe as 'aggressive'- Snape & Ailis, both of these contradict the studies as they were black (non-agouti gene)


Oh my, what a load of rubbish... The most aggressive rat I've had here was a PEW and a black, in fact I have never been bitten by an agouti as of yet 

I would say that the issue they had was with temperament genetics, not coat colour


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> I am still wary of Staffs though, even though Ive met many and not seen a bad one yet.Its just I have very breakable dogs and they are built like tanks!!


I think that's very different though... I don't let Brock near tiny dogs for the flip side of that, he's a huge bouncy puppy who thinks leaning on someone/something is a way of showing affection and refuses to have it that waving a giant paw around isn't everyone's preferred game.

That's nothing to do with perceived aggression or breed traits, just practicality about size difference.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> Interesting take on a story from the US, & IMO a fine example of breedist propaganda:
> 
> Article in the Daily Mail yesterday:
> Dog eats boys finger, dad shoots dog and then retrieves finger while ambulance arrives | Mail Online
> ...


Certainly the solid colour in cockers was linked with mental issues (cocker rage) I do believe that the rytex lines in springers have more white in their coats and are more nervous, in mollys case its true about the nervousness but she doesnt show signs of aggression due to her been nervy, some might i dont know.


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## MelissaF12 (Apr 4, 2013)

oh dear! I just signed up to this hoping to find a forum on SBT's and this young girl who was tragically killed! 

I take offence at the statement that all SBT's owners are the same! I have a full breed and a cross. Lucky is a full staff and has just got out her puppy stage and Daisy is the SBTxJRT and is WHITE! She has never once been 'vicious' towards anyone! and by previous posts she should be because she is white! THE BIGGEST PILE OF DOGGY DO-DO I'VE EVER HEARD BY THE WAY! On the other hand, Lucky, the full Staff was just six months old when we rescued her from an appallingly dirty house! She was put up on gumtree cheaply because the owners could no longer have her, her mother and father were picking on her and they wanted to get rid of her ASAP! I was researching for A-levels and found her and rang my mother instantly, after my lessons she picked me up and we went to look at her. SOMETHING WE NEVER DO! We wanted to get to know her before we moved her to ours, but when we got there and saw how she was living - in the kitchen, only getting the humans leftovers and having to fight with her mother and father, who were obviously a lot stronger than she was! We gave them the money and took her home straight away! She threw up in the car all the way home - she was petrified! all that was coming out of her system was human food! she took a shinning to my boyfriend! they've been inseparable ever since! we got her May 2011! We took her to puppy classes, and she learnt everything VERY quickly.. She soon learnt that she would get food from us, even though for the first few months my boyfriend Phil had to hand feed her because she would turn her nose up at dog food, believing human food was the only thing she would eat! She would try and attack us when we had food, not viciously but would try and bite at our hands to drop the plate (or whatever) we would take her for walks daily - she was so excited - I'm not sure whether she knew what one was, she was excited at the prospect but would get really anxious when out (until ballie was thrown then she would look like a normal dog) she would try and go for your face if it was near you! - later we found out that this was probably because the owners would tease all three dogs by putting food in their mouths after they would have to fight for the leftovers!
A few months down the line, with her behaviour improving dramatically and coaxing this 'bad' dog out of her - she became very ill - she'd gotten mange - she wouldn't touch her food and she was looking gravely ill - we were horrified for her and when I had took her for a walk, a man had chased her back to me in the woods calling her a mangy mutt and using all sorts of cursing words at her! I could see the horror in her eyes, and I was horrified too, the way this man behaved was just horrific! My boyfriend had to begin feeding her by hand again and after having daily baths with special shampoo she began to get better..
Some of the behaviour - the jumping up at you, is still there but apart from that she is a lovely dog - now when you put your face towards hers she will lick you instead of biting like she used to.. she will sit with me, on my lap during the day, and if me and my boyfriend lay on the bed, she'll lay in between us to stop us from being close to one another - I think she believes he is her boyfriend!

NOW TELL ME THAT THIS BREED OF DOG IS A 'NASTY' BREED!!!
I'll admit she wasn't the best behaved dog when we first got her, but now she is a completely different dog - JUST GOES TO SHOW, ITS THE OWNER, NOT THE DOG!!

I find it completely disgusting that the media are considering SBT as 'dangerous' dogs! its absolute dogpoo! They should stop incriminating the dog and start incriminating the OWNER! I believe there should be some permit/test or something to be able to own a dog! The amount of people that intentionally harm animals is frustrating! I remember as a child - my granddad rescued a dog that was tied to the back of a car and was dragged down the road by a person (if that's what you'd like to call the disgusting thing) all because it pee'd on the carpet - although the 'thing' didn't let it out for the whole day! Some people are just damn sick - if there was some sort of permit/test around that you'd have to have/do before you could have a dog - it would stop people like this having animals and would probably stop these animals from attacking children!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I can't believe this thread is still running; it's been discussed to death. LOL!


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## Mark Walden (Mar 31, 2013)

MelissaF12 said:


> I find it completely disgusting that the media are considering SBT as 'dangerous' dogs! its absolute dogpoo! They should stop incriminating the dog and start incriminating the OWNER! I believe their should be some permit/test or something to be able to own a dog! The amount of people that intentionally harm animals is frustrating! I remember as a child - my granddad rescued a dog that was tied to the back of a car and was dragged down the road by a person (if that's what you'd like to call the disgusting thing) all because it pee'd on the carpet - although the 'thing' didn't let it out for the whole day! Some people are just damn sick - if there was some sort of permit/test around that you'd have to have/do before you could have a dog - it would stop people like this having animals and would probably stop these animals from attacking children!


I think generally as a whole, most dog owners would agree with you.

Sadly the papers go very little detail about the details that cased this horrific case to happen. It's easy for them to label breeds as 'dangerous' and from their point of view, it makes a good story. I've been reading the papers and they all almost share the same view, it's the breed thats the problem. We all know that is *not* the case... Thats why I pay very little attention to the news and especially the papers. Whenever a case like this happens all I think is 'here we go again'.

They touch up on legislation and to an extent they are quite right pointing out at how flawed dog legislation is at the moment, and right now it's going through very big changes.

People tend to forget that owning a dog is such a commitment. Not only are you responsible for caring the dog, you are financially, morally and *LEGALLY* too.

We can't exactly put handcuffs on a dog and arrest them, can we? The only thing the authorities can do is take the dog into the garden and shoot it. Tragic.

When I got involved in rescue I dealt with people from all kinds of social backgrounds. I had people going up to me having NO idea how to feed, walk, treat an animal. The country is full of these people and sadly, as always, the dog always pays the price.


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## MelissaF12 (Apr 4, 2013)

Mark Walden said:


> I think generally as a whole, most dog owners would agree with you.
> 
> Sadly the papers go very little detail about the details that cased this horrific case to happen. It's easy for them to label breeds as 'dangerous' and from their point of view, it makes a good story. I've been reading the papers and they all almost share the same view, it's the breed thats the problem. We all know that is *not* the case... Thats why I pay very little attention to the news and especially the papers. Whenever a case like this happens all I think is 'here we go again'.
> 
> ...


HERE HERE!!
finally someone who makes sense!! I'm sorry, I've had numerous conversations with people, especially with recent events in the news! I had someone say to me the other day - "I hope your gonna have your dog put down, as they are such a 'dangerous' breed, if you don't and she attacks you, it will be your fault" - I'll admit, I had a few choice words to say back!
I was gobsmacked at this - truly! I mean, I've done a hell of a lot of work to get Lucky to ditch the behaviour she was taught so early on in her life! 
When I've talked to people about it recently, they look at me horrified that I am in the dogs corner when arguing about it - and even more horrified when I say that I have one myself - been looking on the internet recently and saint bernards are on the list for having caused more deaths before SBT and yet when my boyfriend says that's what he has got everyone is like 'aww' - he is also a lovely dog - but its the misconception that the media shows the idiots that believe everything the media says and swears by it!! It really does make me angry!

the media are just so frustrating when they bring out stories like this - its always the dogs that have the stereotype of being on a 'chavs' arm to - its never the 'nice dogs' the ones that have the stereotype of a 'nice person' owning is it? like for example the saint bernard and dalmation! its just a disgrace! I love saint bernards and dalmations too but it would just be nice to see another dog being in the media for once instead of the SBT and see how they would handle them attacking someone - it would be interesting to know whether they would class them as being a 'dangerous dog' as well and whether they need to be banned or whether they are a dog that just got dealt the nasty owner!

I'm sorry for the rant! this just really boils my blood!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think SBT's are in the media more often just because of the sheer numbers of them about, add to that some of the idiotic owners who have them (have one down my street) and there's bound to be a backlash against them. When a breed is overbred like the SBT is now you can be pretty certain they are not all bred by decent, responsible breeders. 

Was at the vets two days ago and a couple came in with a litter of four to have their check ups and I just thought 'why did they breed them when there are so many in rescue?' Such a shame that they are so exploited and very often mistreated too.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Mark Walden said:


> Sadly the papers go very little detail about the details that cased this horrific case to happen. It's easy for them to label breeds as 'dangerous' and from their point of view, it makes a good story.
> I've been reading the papers and they all almost share the same view, it's the breed thats the problem. We all know that is *not* the case... Thats why I pay very little attention to the papers
> 
> As always, the dog pays the price.


It's about time the media stopped focusing on the breed or the dog at the centre of the problem for that matter and held the owner accountable for its behaviour.

Media mentality only serves to fuel the anti dog brigade mentality and together they just bang the drum more loudly until either human interest wanes or the next unfortunate and tragic incident arises.

The media spread gossip, rumour and heresay because they know real truth is hard to come by and if they were bound by an oath to print only truth then unemployment figures would no doubt soar from the sheer numbers of out of work reporters.

Not for the want of sounding hypocritical but when Zara and Oscar caught the man who entered our house without invitation, not a shining moment for them or a proud moment for us, the locals had a field day and a seemingly real purpose for their crusade.

Rumour spread like wildfire across a dry heath and the many different versions, accounts and beliefs of what actually transpired that fateful day touched on everything but that quaint little detail known as truth.

With specific regard to the above instance it had been asked, 'Were we accountable?

I say not for the actions of another!

A quote from a conversation I was not a party to;

_"There should be a law preventing people from owning multiple dogs because they can't possibly control several animals all at once.
When pack mentality rears its ugly head there is nothing anyone can do to save themselves or another from being seriously injured, disfigured or even killed." _

It has to be considered then that when one dog commits an indiscretion through no fault of its own, all dogs and all dog owners are thrust under the same microscope.

In this respect there really is no discrimination.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

MelissaF12 said:


> HERE HERE!!
> finally someone who makes sense!! I'm sorry, I've had numerous conversations with people, especially with recent events in the news! I had someone say to me the other day - "I hope your gonna have your dog put down, as they are such a 'dangerous' breed, if you don't and she attacks you, it will be your fault" - I'll admit, I had a few choice words to say back!
> I was gobsmacked at this - truly! I mean, I've done a hell of a lot of work to get Lucky to ditch the behaviour she was taught so early on in her life!
> When I've talked to people about it recently, they look at me horrified that I am in the dogs corner when arguing about it - and even more horrified when I say that I have one myself - been looking on the internet recently and saint bernards are on the list for having caused more deaths before SBT and yet when my boyfriend says that's what he has got everyone is like 'aww' - he is also a lovely dog - but its the misconception that the media shows the idiots that believe everything the media says and swears by it!! It really does make me angry!
> ...


i just correct your FIRST WORDS..

English is not my first language i add but...it is not HERE HERE but HEAR HEAR ! ??? not so ???

maybe you know that and are just so hot and boiled up with emotions like a ummm latin ? lol !!!  that as you admit you are in RANT mode ! 

.........just one other point...many have made valid sense comment on this tragic case...not just one person...

.............and the media gave not ALL details no that would include statements they could have made like ? THESE BREEDS OF DOGS ARE DANGEROUS ! i dont recall reading that ???? they gave enough details i and others found to find SOME possible reasons for the attack...like ? DOGS ALONE WITHOUT OWNER ...many dogs...dogs in RAVING STATE even when POLICE arrived...MEAT PIE of GIRL NOT PART OF FAMILLY...

i cease. not ranting...and i am sure you know how to spell HEAR HEAR but were just EMOTIONAL


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> I can't believe this thread is still running; it's been discussed to death. LOL!


 how can a thread be closed ? well never mind but i think unless something NEW can be said it is just sounding like a record that gets stuck repeating itself ja !

same points same views seems to have wandered even into a BREED DEFENSE THREAD rather than KENNEL CLUB STATEMENT discussion to me ! no one seems to MENTION KC or QUOTE KC even in the last postings ? did i miss those references ?



the Kennel Club of GB has made along statement following the death of Jade. TRAGIC death of jade i add to STRESS and not miss that out as we can do in our overexcitement to make our points...

I agree with the KC statement made being opinionated about not having a specific banned breed legislation but IN FAVOUR OF URGING MORE STRICT CONTROL over kids alone with dogs as Jade unfortunately was. Those were the KC implied words at the end of the article that to me were the MOST USEFUL ADVICE AND MOST IMPORTANT POINT that can be followed to avoid or lessen the RISK to other kids in the future.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> how can a thread be closed ? well never mind but i think unless something NEW can be said it is just sounding like a record that gets stuck repeating itself ja !
> 
> same points same views *seems to have wandered even into a BREED DEFENSE THREAD* rather than KENNEL CLUB STATEMENT discussion to me ! no one seems to MENTION KC or QUOTE KC even in the last postings ? did i miss those references ?
> 
> ...


And there's me thinking it has wandered into a "correct other people's spelling" thread, which is incredibly rude.

Now I will show you how a thread can get closed.


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