# Who's side are you on? Dog on a leash or free roaming dog?



## DOGPERSON (Nov 28, 2011)

Hi,

Recently I met a client that I had to re check my dog ideas about.

They have an eight year old big black lab cross beast that a few years ago apparently decided it liked people but would try and eat dogs. The owners say they come 'from the country' and have tried all standard training techniques. They have it under good control in the house with many standard commands.

But because of the aggression, I need to walk the dog separately and watch out for any dog that comes up to it in an off lead area. Now here is my dilemma. If you dont introduce this dog to other dogs, it will never become social again. This is not my job for now, but this is what I think the owners some times do.

The real question I have is that the owners say that other owners are bad when they let (cant recall) their dogs away from her restrained dog in the park. She yells out that her dog is aggressive, and if another dog gets bitten its basically the other people's fault because they dont have total recall on their dogs.

Now typically I come from the opposing view, because I have a VERY social dog (I am a dog walker and he gets lots of walks) but he has only just recently started being more wary of going up to every dog. If he got bitten by someone who had a dog on lead (no muzzle) then I would not be very happy.

What do the people of this forum think?


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

We have strict leash laws in the Netherlands and the law states that if your dog is off lead and gets into a fight with an on lead dog you and your dog will be blamed because in effect you did not have proper control..
It is up to the owner of the off leash dog to keep their dog under control not on lead dogs..
( this is not my opinion it is the way the law works here)

After being bitten a couple of times by off lead dogs Oscar can seem quite DA if approached while he is on lead..

What one person calls social another views as a bloody menace I hate being bounced on and knocked into by great bouncy dogs getting my three all knotted up and knocking Oscar over( hes not strong in the rear end)..Then they shout hes only playing :mad5:


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## DOGPERSON (Nov 28, 2011)

Hi Dorrit, thanks for your answer and some very valid points.

I have a spoodle, and usually if he goes up to someone its because they have treats or they have called him. I can usually call my guy back if it appears the other person doesnt want to be greeted by a dog.

But in our dog parks, I notice fortunately that they are full of social people and social dogs. It would be great if everyone was a qualified dog trainer, but not everyone has the skills for 100% recall.

I am not sure that taking an obviously dangerous dog to the park and saying to everyone LOOK OUT! Is really a responsible thing to do, even if they are covered by the law. 

In an off lead park (there are so few of them), I expect to be jumped on by small to medium dogs a little, its just the big or dirty ones that concern me. I try and give and take and realize the park is there for the dogs, the owners should really come second and if you don't like dogs or dogs jumping, then maybe you are in the wrong park, or is that just me? Yes there are exceptions and some very obnoxious dogs and owners, but I thought I would just put this question out there.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I can only go on what I do with mine but as you now, everyone has different views on this. Fizz is a friendly but nervous dog who spent the first year of her life with some prick who allowed her to be harmed by other dogs as a result she can be temperamental with other dogs depending on what they are like around her, she is fine with my other dogs but say we're in the park ad a male dog tries mounting her or even showing interest in it, she will snap at them, I know she does this so i usually manage on control with my voice...i just say 'fizz nicely' until i ask the owner to remove the dog...usually other owners are happy to do so,,,i keep fizz on her lead and other owners tend to respect this to be honest....if there's another dog who just wont stop jumping on her i will muzzel her till we're out the way...but this i feel is a little unfair on her because putting an already nervous dog who's already on a lead in a muzzel puts her at a disadvantage in her eyes....and we've seen that before too...she was muzzeld and someones dog ran over to her and pinned her down by the neck...she had absolutely no way of either defending herself or getting free untill i pulled the other dog off, this took her back months. It's a difficult call really, i try and eep my eyes and ears pen and avoid any potential difficulties coming our way, it's not a dogs fault that they get over excited, especially if it's in training....but then it's not fizz's fault that she is nervy of other dogs at times either....it comes down to consideration of both owners i think. If I've explained and they still let their dogs jump all over her though it does pee me off because that's not just inconsiderate to my dog but to theirs too.
Edit just to say....all this said...fizz does still get off lead time...I just have to be more careful as to where and when


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

When Im at the common which is a huge off lead area I wear old clothes expect to get dirty (cos I love to play as much as the dogs) and in 15 yrs Ive never seen a fight even though dogs of all types meet up there..

It in the smaller parks where dogs are not allowed off lead and some people ignore it thats the problem..
Trying to hold three dogs whilst getting bounced on by a loose one or sometimes charged by a snapping aggressive one isnt funny..

If people obay the rules then theres no problems ..I had a lovely relationship with a dog owner I never met..Our dogs hated the sight of each other for some reason but if he saw me he would stand behind a parked car until I passed or visa versa ..if he came to the park while I was there he would walk in the same direction as me never catching up so the dogs never had to meet..again I would do the same for him...We waved and nodded to each other for years but never spoke..
It was just a nice considerate relationship..It can be done even if the dogs dont get on!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

DOGPERSON said:


> Hi Dorrit, thanks for your answer and some very valid points.
> 
> I have a spoodle, and usually if he goes up to someone its because they have treats or they have called him. I can usually call my guy back if it appears the other person doesnt want to be greeted by a dog.
> 
> ...


Not sure why, but it does irk me a little when people accept being jumped on by small and medium dogs as OK or expected, but not large ones.....it shouldn't really be acceptable for any dog to jump on a person it doesn't know surely (although of course it does happen)? I know big dogs can cause more damage / fright / knock you over but I do get fed up of coming home filthy as _some_ smaller dogs' owners think it is cute whereas they would not be happy if Kilo jumped on them. Seems akin to those who let smaller dogs snap at others as it is funny and 'they can't do any damage' but have a tirade when a big dog does the same.


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## equi (Dec 19, 2011)

I think everyone should HAVE to have their dog on a retractable lead, so they can roam but still be pulled in and controlled.


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## 912142 (Mar 28, 2011)

equi said:


> I think everyone should HAVE to have their dog on a retractable lead, so they can roam but still be pulled in and controlled.


A retractable lead is of no use for a giant breed and can be dangerous.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

A retractable lead would be ok for Penny although not something I'd like to use because she likes running and playing free from a lead, waste of money for Fizz as she only walks by my side anyway and useless for tex. I also use gencons for my pooches and i find they don't work well with retractables. I will not stop allowing my dogs to have off lead walks unless the laws change and i have no choice and even then it's questionable because in my opinion dogs need off led walks to meet all exercises requirements


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## IndyGoJones (Dec 31, 2011)

Maybe its unfair to generalise here, but I've noticed (certainly around this area) that the people who walk their dogs off-lead (or on-lead) in off-lead areas tend to be responsible dog owners. 

Sadly I've encountered a lot of abused dogs during my times volunteering at the local shelter who are agoraphobic because they've never been taken for proper walks. We've not let Indy off the lead in busy places, but he's got great re-call for a pup. 

I guess it all just comes down to personal preference (about being jumped on) and compromise by considerate owners. Being jumped on isn't ideal, especially if it isn't invited but I guess even the most well trained dogs get excited sometimes.


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## equi (Dec 19, 2011)

If you cant control your dog on a retrac then you should have it on a short leash. Yes i would rather have all dogs running around free, but everyone is so paranoid now and if a dog touches their dog its a law suit. better to avoid that in my view. i live in the middle of nowhere and i have only let my dog off lead a handful of times, mostly cause i am always scared she will run into the next yard and be eaten alive by the 6, yes..six.. german shepards, but i have never let her off lead in a public place out of respect for people and thier perceived fears of SBTs


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## beris (Aug 30, 2010)

It depends where I am whether my dog is on lead or off lead.Areas I know, I walk on the beach, forest, country park off lead,, if I am in an area I'm not sure about, or new area, my dog stays on lead until I have weighed the area up and if it is safe for her to be off lead. Of course I take into account if dogs are allowed off lead.
The first thing I teach my dogs is recall.
I don't like dogs jumping up on me, it annoys me to go out with clean 'doggy clothes' and have to change into more clean 'clean doggy' clothes when get home if only having a nice lazy walking day.

It is illegal to have a dog out of control in a public or private place.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

An off lead dog should not approach an on lead dog and neither should it jump up strange people. Obviously there are going to be mistakes and accidents but I cant see how anyone could consider it was ok.
Why should a dog that needs to be on a lead for whatever reason be limited in where it can walk because of other dogs owners bad manners.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I keep my dog either on a short lead or a flexi lead. He's not aggressive or anything, its just i can't trust his recall. He meets lots of dogs, which I don't mind. Most dogs have good manners and will approach calmly and will greet calmly, and then walk on. However, I have met a few dogs that charge at us and jump all over us. This is not acceptable in my book, even if its a small dog. 

If I was consulting the black lab in your original post, I would suggest they had the dog on a short lead and muzzled. Although its not their fault if other dogs charge over to them, its not the other dog's fault its going to get bitten, its the owner's fault. If a dog gets bitten, it can scare them for life, and can cause them to become aggressive, so to avoid this happening to other dogs, I would have that dog on a short lead and muzzled.

The only time the dog should be on a flexi lead (never off lead) is on a deserted beach or a deserted field, and reeled back in and muzzled if a dog is seen.

For socialisation, the dog should see a behaviourist. I don't believe in using the general public's dogs to train your own, as its unpredictable way of socialising. With a behaviourist, they can control the situation, with the general public, you have no idea of the true nature of other dogs and what the situation could result in.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I`m not taking sides. 
Just train your flippin` dog, tell her. 
It`s simply an excuse for an incompetent trainer. 
And for people who never let their poor animal run jump or swim because they`re terrified to let it off the bit of string...
just train your dog...
runs away and hides.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

well i'm not bothered if others let the dog off their lead but with alfie he is on a longline recall training lead.

it gives me peace of mind as i always know where he is and he hasnt got distracted or something and wont come back. my aunts dog was trained to perfection heel work and everything at 10 years old one day got spooked and run off into a road and runover and that is something that has stuck with me. no matter how well trained there are always different circumstances that you cannot allow for.

also 3 different policemen plus vets and just passersby have told us that because of the way alfie looks he could be a target for dog napping and to keep hold of him.it is getting weird actually as many just say what a lovely dog and then oh someone might try and steal him! the instances are rising so i would be better safe than sorry.


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## equi (Dec 19, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I`m not taking sides.
> Just train your flippin` dog, tell her.
> It`s simply an excuse for an incompetent trainer.
> And for people who never let their poor animal run jump or swim because they`re terrified to let it off the bit of string...
> ...


You can train your dog from birth to death but some dogs just wont recall


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

My dogs are fine when they're out, they have an excellent recall and are obedient, but, I still put them on a lead when other dogs are approaching, whether they are on the lead or not. 

I cannot abide being jumped on by any size dog - hate it, that's bad manners, irrespective of whether I have a bag of treats or not, it's not nice.

I did once have an incident when Flint was put on his lead and told to sit, along with my other two, and this wayward little terrier races up, teeth on display gnashing, goes up to Fletcher and sniffs, fine; goes up to Floyd and sniffs, fine; goes up to Flint and sniffs - not fine! : He took objection to this little dog squirming underneath him and Flint then grumbled and muttered at him. The terrier's owner, a lady we have encountered previously, is still 3 fields away, with no control whatsoever. Had Flint decided he really didn't like this dog, he could have been mince-meat. So, if you can't get your dog to recall, don't let him off, but it really isn't usually that difficult if you put a bit of effort in.

She still walks her dog off lead and we still see her three fields away from her dog. He avoids us now thank God.

Sorry, rabbled on a bit.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

equi said:


> If you cant control your dog on a retrac then you should have it on a short leash. Yes i would rather have all dogs running around free, but everyone is so paranoid now and if a dog touches their dog its a law suit. better to avoid that in my view. i live in the middle of nowhere and i have only let my dog off lead a handful of times, mostly cause i am always scared she will run into the next yard and be eaten alive by the 6, yes..six.. german shepards, but i have never let her off lead in a public place out of respect for people and thier perceived fears of SBTs


I dont know what part of the world you are in but certainly here if a dog attacks another dog theres certainly no law suit.

Mine are always off lead and when i got my very first springer thats what i wanted for him and the 2 i have now, if i see someone with an off lead dog suddenly put theirs on a lead, depending on the situation i make sure mine come to my side and walk there till we are clear of the leashed dog or i put mine in the lead, i think its common courtesy to repect the other owner and dog, i try and assume their dog is not friendly and they are protecting my dog.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

equi said:


> You can train your dog from birth to death but some dogs just wont recall


Maybe odd ones but most just have owners that can't motivate them to recall


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Having spent the last 8 years trying to prevent other dogs approaching my very dog aggressive, leashed and muzzled dog I am sick to death of people who think it's just fine for their dog to approach any dog it chooses simply because its friendly. Not only did it put both their dog and my dog in danger (a muzzle does NOT prevent injury) but it also undid months of hard work every time it happened. 

Nor was I happy with those whose dogs charged up to my sick and infirm collie, knocked him down and trampled all over him in supposed play. Neither was he and yet somehow it was always him that was to blame when he growled or snapped at the offending dog.

As for flexi leashes, I hate the things with a passion and would love to see them banned. I used a long line for my aggressive dog where it was appropriate.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

DOGPERSON said:


> Hi,
> 
> Recently I met a client that I had to re check my dog ideas about.
> 
> ...


If a dog runs up to an on lead dog and gets bitten then the human who's dog ran up to the dog on a lead would be at fault. Just because a dog is friendly and wants to play it doesn't mean it has the right to go up and harass every dog on the park. Someone with a DA dog has as much right to walk unhindered around the park as someone who's dog likes to socialise.

IMO friendly dogs who have no recall and do exactly as they please are as much of a menace as an off lead aggressive dog.

If you're going to be walking a DA dog it is a good idea to come up with a strategy of how you are going to control the situation when an off lead approaches. Using a pet corrector or gravel bottle will deter the majority of marauding dogs.

By walking this new clients dog maybe you'll start to see off lead dogs from a different perspective.

I do let my own dogs off lead and their recall is excellent so I do not allow them to approach other dogs that are unknown to us without first checking with the owner


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Nor was I happy with those whose dogs charged up to my sick and infirm collie, knocked him down and trampled all over him in supposed play.


yes this is also true for me.

we had a 13 year old rough collie, very gentle and he had cancer and was weakening. he was just on a stroll when the neighbours boisterous staff came over offlead and knocked him off his feet.

when we complained she said oh hes just friendly, however it makes the poor on lead elderly dog have a terrible accident.

alfie my pup now is quite friendly and boisterous and we are training him but we do not allow him to approach until the owners of other dogs have said come over and it is always on a long lead too.


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## troublestrouble (Oct 19, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Not sure why, but it does irk me a little when people accept being jumped on by small and medium dogs as OK or expected, but not large ones.....it shouldn't really be acceptable for any dog to jump on a person it doesn't know surely (although of course it does happen)? I know big dogs can cause more damage / fright / knock you over but I do get fed up of coming home filthy as _some_ smaller dogs' owners think it is cute whereas they would not be happy if Kilo jumped on them. Seems akin to those who let smaller dogs snap at others as it is funny and 'they can't do any damage' but have a tirade when a big dog does the same.


i completely agree with you on this one! theres a lot small dogs can get away with which big dogs cant, apparently. i get some nasty looks if Trouble pulls on the lead on the way to the common but i rarely see a small dog who doesn't pull but because they are small and the owner can just pull them over no one bats an eye lid.

on the subject of the thread... everywhere we go is off lead walking and theres lots of dogs, sometimes 40+ all playing together and running around and theres hardly ever a scupple but if we walk past a dog on the lead i can only presume that the dog might be on the lead because they are not dog friendly and call Trouble away. as far as i'm concerned if Trouble goes over to a dog on the lead and got hurt it is Trouble's fault. I'm not a big fan of mussels and if a dog is aggressive they shouldnt have to be kept away completely, if the owner feels in enough control to walk with the dog on the lead then i am happy to give the dog a wide birth just in case. afterall a lot fo aggression is supposed to come from fear isnt it and having Trouble going up to say hello when she is off the lead and they are on it could be quite a scary moment.

when walking to and from the common Trouble is always on the lead and there are some staffs who are walked ON THE MAIN ROADS off the lead and they have attacked her a couple of times now so she is not so good on the lead with smaller dogs and i can see from her body language that it is because she is scared.

whoever said that all dogs should be on a retractable lead all the time clearly doesnt have a gsd or a boxer or all the other many breeds who would take all day of walking to tire them out if they were always on a lead, its only by trouble running round like a mad thing that she will sleep a little through the day and i can have some peace

oooops, i have ranted, rant over


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> yes this is also true for me.
> 
> we had a 13 year old rough collie, very gentle and he had cancer and was weakening. he was just on a stroll when the neighbours boisterous staff came over offlead and knocked him off his feet.
> 
> when we complained she said oh hes just friendly, however it makes the poor on lead elderly dog have a terrible accident.


Used to make me really, really angry. Especially when the other owner reacted as though he were vicious when he informed their rude dog that that was not acceptable behaviour. He never hurt another dog but man could he roar when he wanted to.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

troublestrouble said:


> i if we walk past a dog on the lead i can only presume that the dog might be on the lead because they are not dog friendly and call Trouble away. as far as i'm concerned if Trouble goes over to a dog on the lead and got hurt it is Trouble's fault. I'm not a big fan of mussels and if a dog is aggressive they shouldnt have to be kept away completely, if the owner feels in enough control to walk with the dog on the lead then i am happy to give the dog a wide birth just in case. afterall a lot fo aggression is supposed to come from fear isnt it and having Trouble going up to say hello when she is off the lead and they are on it could be quite a scary moment.


If only more people thought this way.


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

I think that off lead exercise is an important part of exercising and socialising a dog and I think people should have a right to let their dogs off their lead, however I think if your dog is off the lead it must be under control and you must be able to recall it.

The are also, lots of dogs, that for a verity of reasons are kept on the lead, and I think that these dog owners should have the right to walk their dogs without them being harassed by other dogs.

Having said that, if your dog is so aggressive and reactive that it will attack another dog without warning I dont think its enough to simply say, my dog is on a lead and the other dog came over so its their fault that my dog attacked. Its an unfortunate fact that a lot of dog owners cannot control their dogs and if you have a dog that is so aggressive that it will attack another dog for coming close then I strongly believe that your dog should be muzzled.


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## Ingrid25 (Oct 1, 2011)

depends where you are-
if you are walking along a road, obviously lead
but if it's at a billabong/lake/dam or at a park with not many dogs etc off lead definantly i think they dont get much excersice without some offlead time.

but saying this, my old dog archie was tramatised my something/someone so he bit alot when unknown people came past, so he was usually on leash unless we were all by ourselfs


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> And for people who never let their poor animal run jump or swim because they`re terrified to let it off the bit of string...
> just train your dog...


for small-medium sized dogs, a decent sized flexi lead or long line can allow dogs to run, jump and swim. for larger dogs, long lines can also allow the dog to run and jump and play.

I don't see the big thing about dogs having to be off lead. yes, all dogs should have some freedom, whether thats off lead or on a flexi lead or long line, not just on a short lead all the time. But a flexi lead or long line can provide as much exercise as off lead for certain dogs IMO. Ollie gets as tired out on a flexi lead as he did when he was off lead, so I don't see the point in risking his life having him off lead, when he doesn't get any additional benefit from it.

If a dog is aggressive, it should be kept on a short lead and should have a behaviourist assess and help treat the problem, not just allowed to continue attacking other dogs, or not having some freedom.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> for small-medium sized dogs, a decent sized flexi lead or long line can allow dogs to run, jump and swim. for larger dogs, long lines can also allow the dog to run and jump and play.
> 
> I don't see the big thing about dogs having to be off lead. yes, all dogs should have some freedom, whether thats off lead or on a flexi lead or long line, not just on a short lead all the time. But a flexi lead or long line can provide as much exercise as off lead for certain dogs IMO. Ollie gets as tired out on a flexi lead as he did when he was off lead, so I don't see the point in risking his life having him off lead, when he doesn't get any additional benefit from it.
> 
> If a dog is aggressive, it should be kept on a short lead and should have a behaviourist assess and help treat the problem, not just allowed to continue attacking other dogs, or not having some freedom.


this is very true, alfie can run like usain bolt on a lone line and we know where he is and have control of him too.

also i think some are forgetting that they can run and leap and bound around in a garden where there is more safety and no other dogs to harm or get harmed by. i know some do not have one but others do and dogs can have exercise in gardens too!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I dont go legging it up to strangers, hugging them, jumping on them, kissing them because it is bad manners. I expect my dog to have similar manners (not that he is off as long line)


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

For some dogs a long line is the only freedom they can have. I couldn't risk letting Rupert off except for in very select areas, not with how intent he was on chasing and killing other animals. 

However, he could not run on a long line the way he did when loose, it simply didn't give him the space to do so. My preference would always be for a dog to be off leash where possible.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

Tummels been offlead since the day we got him at 10 weeks old, his recall has been the bain of my life but he's got a very good recall now at 18 months and will recall when other dogs are around.

I believe dogs should be offlead, i understand there are pro's and con's but theres risks in everything we do nowadays...not even 10 years ago dogs were offlead, allowed to interact with one another and nobody was to blame if the dogs didn't get along....I hate flexi leads with a passion and having such a large dog i will never use them, i have no issues with long lines but i do feel if the dog recalls fine then why bother with them? Everywhere we go i make sure i know it's safe for Tummel to be off, if i see a dog onlead Tummel is put onlead, if it's offlead and the owner looks calm then Tummel stays offlead too so he can say hello.

Tummels been hurt by dogs on and offlead(both him and the other dogs), i don't blame the dogs and rarely blame the owners(twice Tummels been bitten by dogs on flexi leads and i do blame the owners as they could have prevented it, Tummel was on his lead both times) as dogs don't always get along.

I think it's upto the owners but if the dog is friendly and sociable with good recall theres no reason for them to be on a lead all the time.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> this is very true, alfie can run like usain bolt on a lone line and we know where he is and have control of him too.


exactly. if Ollie starts running, I run with him so the flexi lead isn't restricting him. He gets as much running and fun on his flexi lead as he did off lead. I personally wouldn't want my dog to be off lead, but that's my opinion. I don't mind other dogs being off lead as long as they are well behaved.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

> not even 10 years ago dogs were offlead, allowed to interact with one another and nobody was to blame if the dogs didn't get along


Yeah, there were a couple of dogs my collie didn't get along with. We avoided each other where possible, leashed the dogs if we had to pass each other on the field and just accepted that they didn't like each other.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> exactly. if Ollie starts running, I run with him so the flexi lead isn't restricting him. He gets as much running and fun on his flexi lead as he did off lead. I personally wouldn't want my dog to be off lead, but that's my opinion. I don't mind other dogs being off lead as long as they are well behaved.


My running pace was Ruperts trotting pace so this wouldn't have worked for us. Just out of curiosity, can I ask why you don't want your dog off leash? Not judging, just genuinely curious as practically everyone I know wants to be able to let their dog off leash.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

equi said:


> I think everyone should HAVE to have their dog on a retractable lead, so they can roam but still be pulled in and controlled.


Sounds like a recipe for disaster all tangled up (and for lots of other reasons) and I KNOW I couldn't hold Kilo if he tried to bolt when he was at the end of the flexi; wouldn't be able to hold the big clunky handle!! I also know that he could be at the end in a flash and the exercise compared to free running is hugely lessened.

I do think this debate (that we have time and again on here so I am too lazy to write exactly what I think today!) boils down to common sense and most importantly having the courtesy to consider the wishes and needs of others. It is up to owners to be responsible and use their common sense and pick their walking areas according to what they wish to do or achieve on a particular day.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> My running pace was Ruperts trotting pace so this wouldn't have worked for us. Just out of curiosity, can I ask why you don't want your dog off leash? Not judging, just genuinely curious as practically everyone I know wants to be able to let their dog off leash.


Absolutely; I run with Kilo as we both love it; I am huffing and puffing and he is just trotting along - no way does it equate to his running pace!


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Kind of along the lines of this thread, we had a bit of an odd incident on this morning's walk...

There was a huge mastiff type dog running (I thought) loose with no owner in sight. In turns out she was there but right at the other end of the dog park and she was not fussed at all at what her dog was doing  Luckily he was very friendly (good job really, I've seen smaller donkeys) but I admit my stomach lurched a little when he came bounding over to us barking his head off. Alfie was not happy, his tail went between his legs and he shot right back to me  so I decided best to turn around and go the other way. Well, he only followed us didn't he? I kept turning back in the direction of the owner and she was just stood watching him  I got a bit annoyed in the end and shouted back "will you call your dog please as he's following us" and she called him once, which he ignored  and did nothing else to stop him following us.

Eventually he did turn around and go back in the direction of his owner but I found the whole thing a bit weird. I'm used to watching Alfie constantly, checking what he's up to and who he's approaching etc.... I can't imagine just standing there, a good 200ft away, letting him carry on with himself, doing his own thing  and especially if he was trotting off with someone else!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> My running pace was Ruperts trotting pace so this wouldn't have worked for us. Just out of curiosity, can I ask why you don't want your dog off leash? Not judging, just genuinely curious as practically everyone I know wants to be able to let their dog off leash.


hi i know this wasnt directed to me but i like to keep alfie on the recall lead. my reasons for wanting my dog on a lead are to prevent accident, injury, loss and theft of the dog. also there are a lot of irresponsible owners who let their dogs off who are aggressive towards others and i dont want him to be in an accident because i would never forgive myself.

he is allowed off at the park we go to where there is a large secure enclosure and he goes in there with his doggy friends who we know and trust.

i wonder why ballybee you let a 10 week old pup off the lead with bad recall? is this just not a little dangerous because you wanted him offlead?


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

I don't trust spud off the lead, if Im out with him he is either on a long line or a regular short lead. He has a strong prey drive and is very single minded, if he thinks something is running from him he goes in to chase mode and wants to chase it down and kill it. Once he is in chase mode he will ignore everything apart from his prey, he has no concept of personal danger, will force his way through barbed wire fences, will run out in to the road, will smash his way through gates. He doesnt care he just must get to whatever he is chasing.



equi said:


> I think everyone should HAVE to have their dog on a retractable lead, so they can roam but still be pulled in and controlled.


I would never have Spud on a flexi lead, I think flexi leads are fine for smaller dogs, or dogs that are calmer but for a dog like the Spudster I feel much happier if he is on a short lead or a long line.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> hi i know this wasnt directed to me but i like to keep alfie on the recall lead. my reasons for wanting my dog on a lead are to prevent accident, injury, loss and theft of the dog. also there are a lot of irresponsible owners who let their dogs off who are aggressive towards others and i dont want him to be in an accident because i would never forgive myself.
> 
> he is allowed off at the park we go to where there is a large secure enclosure and he goes in there with his doggy friends who we know and trust.
> 
> *i wonder why ballybee you let a 10 week old pup off the lead with bad recall? is this just not a little dangerous because you wanted him offlead*?


Not ballybee obviously  but wanted to comment on this as I did exactly the same with Alfie. He was off lead from his very first walk at the dog park we go to, for various reasons. 1. I wanted my dog to able to enjoy off-lead exercise as I don't personally think they get the same level of exercise on a training line or flexi-line. 2. I knew there was a much better chance of him not straying too far as a small puppy. 3. I feel the best way to work on recall is to actually practise it. 4. I knew the longer I left it the harder it would be (for me) to let him off. It was nerve-wracking those first few times but I've never regretted it and would do exactly the same again.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't have a problem with off lead dogs but my dogd with the exception of Lily stay on their flexi leads. They are allowed off lead in secure areas but the main place I have to walk them has a main road at one end and a duel carriage way at the other end and being sight hounds they can get to the other end a darn site quicker than me. They are happy on the flexi's and know just how far from me they can go and run in circles round me.

The problem I do have with loose dogs is when their owners let them approach my on lead dogs they are sociable and play with other dogs they love to play with a springer we meet who has impectable mannersd he sits and waits until you call him or his owner gives him permission to aproach the on lead dog. We also meet a boxee who is aggressive towards some dogs but loves mine he is always on a lead she tends to walk him later in the evening to avoid other off lead dogs that run straight up tp him.

If I have Lily running loose I always recall her when we see other dogs as I don't want her to just approch any dog I don't know untill I know who they are and that they are friendly.


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## Barkie (Aug 22, 2011)

DOGPERSON said:


> Hi,
> 
> Recently I met a client that I had to re check my dog ideas about.
> 
> ...


I agree if the dog doesn't meet other dogs it won't learn to be more trusting of other dogs again and sociable but there's a better chance of success under controlled circumstances by only introducing it to friendly, well mannered dogs who are under control. Her dog must be under her control also so I think if your client can't arrange with owners of such dogs to help she needs to arrange with a behaviourist to help her dog change it's behaviour.

'In the country' here at least, there is more space but fewer dogs but a recall is still as essential here as in a town due to farm traffic, livestock and dogs in training who may bolt if frightened. It is less easy to regularly doggy socialise your dog in remoter, smaller places. It may be your client's dog has *never* adequately learned how to be sociable to other dogs in which case someone will have to teach it.

Although I'll offer help my dog isn't being walked to serve as a means of teaching someone else's dog to be dog friendly or exercise their dog. I know that sounds hard but while I was training my dog a thoughtless woman didn't have a recall, hers got hyper, I called mine away but she got bitten and I got bitten while she was hiding between my legs. I work hard to make my dogs recall reliably, to be calm approaching strange dogs and to do so with my permission or leave them alone. To have my work undone and dogs progress halted and set back by a nasty experience is galling.

I would prefer if you were walking your clients aggressive dog to keep it under control and if my dog is under my control then nobody gets upset or inconvenienced.

I'd also like it very much if you don't allow your very social dog to just approach mine without asking me first or me being able to ask you so that I can give my dog permission to play with yours or as part of her training to wait a few seconds at heel first. I can't tell from a distance if your dog is sociable and that you can recall it also when it's time for us to end their playtime.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Coffee said:


> Not ballybee obviously  but wanted to comment on this as I did exactly the same with Alfie. He was off lead from his very first walk at the dog park we go to, for various reasons. 1. I wanted my dog to able to enjoy off-lead exercise as I don't personally think they get the same level of exercise on a training line or flexi-line. 2. I knew there was a much better chance of him not straying too far as a small puppy. 3. I feel the best way to work on recall is to actually practise it. 4. I knew the longer I left it the harder it would be (for me) to let him off. It was nerve-wracking those first few times but I've never regretted it and would do exactly the same again.


I also let Kilo off from day one - he absolutely stuck to my side. We walked in places where it was rare to encounter many (if any) dogs most of the time and I just played and played with him and fed loads of tasty food whenever he offered any sort of voluntary check in with me which I still do (I had to take him to busier places after his walk on a lead to interact with other dogs for socialisation). He still doesn't range very far from me and I still reward voluntary check ins and carry a favourite toy.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Coffee said:


> Not ballybee obviously  but wanted to comment on this as I did exactly the same with Alfie. He was off lead from his very first walk at the dog park we go to, for various reasons. 1. I wanted my dog to able to enjoy off-lead exercise as I don't personally think they get the same level of exercise on a training line or flexi-line. 2. I knew there was a much better chance of him not straying too far as a small puppy. 3. I feel the best way to work on recall is to actually practise it. 4. I knew the longer I left it the harder it would be (for me) to let him off. It was nerve-wracking those first few times but I've never regretted it and would do exactly the same again.


aw thats nice, i suppose it depends on the dog, my alfie was the fastest and bravest puppy ive ever seen, so he would drag with the long line and try to herd, in the garden before he could go out to walk the speed of his herding drive was something else so with him there would be no way he would just stay by us!!

also when he was tiny an aggressive offlead dog, where he shouldnt of been offlead in our park, wouldnt leave him alone and it was reassuring to have him lead on so i knew he wouldnt run away or anything, he is a live wire of a dog and unpredictable!

his recall is very good with or without the longlead and he enjoys himself too.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

DOGPERSON said:


> Hi Dorrit, thanks for your answer and some very valid points.
> 
> I have a spoodle, and usually if he goes up to someone its because they have treats or they have called him. I can usually call my guy back if it appears the other person doesnt want to be greeted by a dog.
> 
> ...





Coffee said:


> Not ballybee obviously  but wanted to comment on this as I did exactly the same with Alfie. He was off lead from his very first walk at the dog park we go to, for various reasons. 1. I wanted my dog to able to enjoy off-lead exercise as I don't personally think they get the same level of exercise on a training line or flexi-line. 2. I knew there was a much better chance of him not straying too far as a small puppy. 3. I feel the best way to work on recall is to actually practise it. 4. I knew the longer I left it the harder it would be (for me) to let him off. It was nerve-wracking those first few times but I've never regretted it and would do exactly the same again.


Neither of my dogs are particular good about staying away from on lead dogs, which is why I take them to a dedicated off lead play area, which is signposted as such. If in there, I do not expect to see dogs on lead and it is not the usual thing. Most people have the sense to either let their dogs off or stick to the on lead dog walks, of which there are many.

So, knowing there are going to be on lead dogs about, I would not take them there. Simple. I am just glad I have somewhere else to take them where they can have a run about.

Flexi leads are extremely dangerous, for both dog and the owner. Did you not see the thread the other day about a little dog run over by a car whilst on a flexi lead?

As already said, they are useless for a giant breed and can cause all sorts of damage.

I always let mine off as puppies. They stay with their owner usually, and get to learn to follow along. It doesn't always last, but it is good to start off that way.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> My running pace was Ruperts trotting pace so this wouldn't have worked for us. Just out of curiosity, can I ask why you don't want your dog off leash? Not judging, just genuinely curious as practically everyone I know wants to be able to let their dog off leash.


I don't want my dog to be off lead because I feel that his recall isn't good enough sometimes, although most of the time, it is fantastic, but that 5% when it isn't good enough, I don't want to risk him running off. I also feel that I can control dog greetings a lot better when he's on a lead, and also he's a bad scavenger and I can usually get whatever is in his mouth out before he's swallowed it, which would be impossible off lead.

I know some people do not like flexis, but flexis, as with any tool, can be used correctly and safely, but can also be misused. I read about the dog that got run over whilst it was on a flexi. I would never recommend walking a dog on a flexi by a road, locked or unlocked. However in open spaces, flexis are great leads, and are IMO safer than long lines. I found long lines got easily tangled around people and dogs, whereas a flexi can be reeled in short quickly and doesn't tangle. I also wouldn't recommend the use of a string flexi. The tape flexis are safer.

As said before, I have no problem with off lead, well behaved dogs.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I never let Dillon run free in the park as I don't trust his recall. So that is the only time I use a Flexi lead, he weighs 40 kilos and I can control him on it as he never strays far from me and I lock it when I see another dog, if there are a few dogs around I put his normal lead back on.

My problem is when people can see he is on a lead which is red so it can be seen, "why oh why" do they let their small yappy dogs run up to him and start jumping and barking at him and think it funny, I do try to get them to call their dog back but they rarely do. 

Well one day it wont be funny, as Dillon is likely to put his paw on him/her and flatten it.

In that case it is their fault not mine.


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## troublestrouble (Oct 19, 2011)

Coffee said:


> Not ballybee obviously  but wanted to comment on this as I did exactly the same with Alfie. He was off lead from his very first walk at the dog park we go to, for various reasons. 1. I wanted my dog to able to enjoy off-lead exercise as I don't personally think they get the same level of exercise on a training line or flexi-line. 2. I knew there was a much better chance of him not straying too far as a small puppy. 3. I feel the best way to work on recall is to actually practise it. 4. I knew the longer I left it the harder it would be (for me) to let him off. It was nerve-wracking those first few times but I've never regretted it and would do exactly the same again.


wouldn't have it any other way.

someone persuaded me to let Trouble off the lead within our first weeka nd she was so scared of the outside world that she stayed glued to me and it's always been that way, i've never had a problem with her recall and i think letting her off so early was a big part of it. Stark had her first walk yesterday and her second walk today and as soon as we got in the parka and i thought she was focused (within 5 mins) she was off the lead and when she wonders off i call her back and make encouraging noises until she comes back to me and then she gets a biscuit-Trouble gets one too but that's cause she's beautiful hehe. we've done barely no recall in the house for one reason and another so it was a do or die situation really knowing that i'm sure if push came to shove i can outrun a 12 week gsd but she's been fine and is enjoying exploring the big wide world and all its many people and dogs 

i am a bit surprised how many people keep their dogs on some sort of lead, it's certainly an interesting and eye opening thread


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

troublestrouble said:


> wouldn't have it any other way.
> 
> someone persuaded me to let Trouble off the lead within our first weeka nd she was so scared of the outside world that she stayed glued to me and it's always been that way, i've never had a problem with her recall and i think letting her off so early was a big part of it. Stark had her first walk yesterday and her second walk today and as soon as we got in the parka and i thought she was focused (within 5 mins) she was off the lead and when she wonders off i call her back and make encouraging noises until she comes back to me and then she gets a biscuit-Trouble gets one too but that's cause she's beautiful hehe. we've done barely no recall in the house for one reason and another so it was a do or die situation really knowing that i'm sure if push came to shove i can outrun a 12 week gsd but she's been fine and is enjoying exploring the big wide world and all its many people and dogs
> 
> i am a bit surprised how many people keep their dogs on some sort of lead, it's certainly an interesting and eye opening thread


it is really nice when you can and have the confidence, i have yet to find anyone who can outrun alfie, im sure he would beat a greyhound since he was 10 weeks old, very fast and determined so thats no option for us.
better safe then sorry i feel is why many keep them on a lead.

as i said in a safe enclosure with the dogs he knows then fine as i can always collect him if he decides not to come back which he does s he has good recall, but where there is a possibility he could get lost or wonder away, never!


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2012)

DOGPERSON said:


> In an off lead park (there are so few of them), I expect to be jumped on by small to medium dogs a little, its just the big or dirty ones that concern me. I try and give and take and realize the park is there for the dogs, the owners should really come second and *if you don't like dogs or dogs jumping, then maybe you are in the wrong park,* or is that just me?


I love dogs, but do not care to be jumped on by them dont care what size they are. Ive had my legs torn up wearing shorts around ill-mannered little dogs jumping and pawing and scratching all over me. Never mind the dirt! And Im certainly not going to appreciate your dog jumping on my child. Manners are manners, regardless of your dogs size.



metaldog said:


> IMO friendly dogs who have no recall and do exactly as they please are as much of a menace as an off lead aggressive dog.


 I couldnt agree more. Nicely put.



ClaireandDaisy said:


> And for people who never let their poor animal run jump or swim because they`re terrified to let it off the bit of string...
> just train your dog...


 Maybe that poor animal is a recently rescued basket case who the owners are trying to rehabilitate in to some sense of normalcy. Who needs to get out of the house but whos not safe yet off lead.
Maybe that poor animal is an elderly dog who still very much enjoys his outings but has poor sight or poor hearing and isnt safe to be off lead.
Maybe that poor animal was born with sensory impairments and isnt safe being off-lead.
Maybe that poor animal is still rehabilitating from orthopedic surgery and needs plenty of leashed activity, but isnt ready to be allowed off leash exercise yet.

There are plenty of reasons people want their dogs on a lead that have nothing to do with not training the dog. I dont think its too much to ask for others to respect your space and not assume youre incompetent if your dog is leashed.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I love dogs, but do not care to be jumped on by them dont care what size they are. Ive had my legs torn up wearing shorts around ill-mannered little dogs jumping and pawing and scratching all over me. Never mind the dirt! And Im certainly not going to appreciate your dog jumping on my child. Manners are manners, regardless of your dogs size.
> 
> I couldnt agree more. Nicely put.
> 
> ...


While I agree with everything you have said in your final paragraph, I also know people who have never attempted to let their dogs off lead in case they run off. That is wrong to me; if you don't know how to teach a recall or don't trust yourself, get someone who does.

I know someone with a 9 year old cocker spaniel who has never once been off lead, because she is scared he will run off.

We used to have a dog who would take off for the day if he once got a chance, but it wasn't as though we didn't try.


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

DOGPERSON said:


> The real question I have is that the owners say that other owners are bad when they let (cant recall) their dogs away from her restrained dog in the park. She yells out that her dog is aggressive, and if another dog gets bitten its basically the other people's fault because they dont have total recall on their dogs.


I agree with the above mentality, although I wouldn't condemn other owners with poor recall as 'bad' I equally wouldn't take any blame if their dog ran up to my on lead dog and got snapped at.

To me, it's common sense to not let your off lead dog approach an on lead dog without the owner explicitly saying it is alright, and that's the rule I follow when my dogs are off lead.

Dog reactive and aggressive dogs need exercise as much as any other dog, and hiding them away from places where other dogs frequent would only make the problem worse because they wouldn't be getting any exposure. If you let your dog off lead you need to be able to recall them reliably, no matter what the distraction is, be it a on lead dog, a road, a horse etc etc.


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## geminili (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi I am new to this forum and joined specifically because of this thread. 

I take my 8 month old labradoodle to the local downs, this is a massive open fields with public bridle way etc. Lots of dog walkers with their dog off lead. There are no specific rule whether dog should be off lead or on lead other than areas where sheep graze and there are notices to say dog should be on lead. I avoid these areas. 

I have been taking my dog to puppy social since he was 12 weeks old after all vaccination. I have been told from trainer to allow my pup off lead since young as it is not fair to keep a dog on lead. For a pup I have to say his recall is not too bad, but obviously he is a very playful and inquisitive pup. He follows my general direction when we out walking on the open fields. 

My pup approached an on lead aggressive dog with no muzzle (this dog was bigger than my dog and if it was to have escaped, I think my pup would have been in a very dangerous place, the owner warned me he is not dog friendly, I tried recalling but was unable to so I went to put my dog on the leash to walk away. The owner of the aggressive dog was struggling to hold her dog. My dog wasnt jumping but wanted to sniff this other dog. I felt the other owners tension made the situation worst. I got told off that if I couldnt control my dog it should be on a leash.

What are your thoughts on this situation?

Also, if my dog got attacked by this dog, would it be my fault? 

I obviously feel that I should allow my dog off lead....

Many thanks.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Funny how different we all are  My biggest regret with Rupert is that he could so rarely be off leash to enjoy a good run and root around in the undergrowth without the restrictions of a long line.



> are IMO safer than long lines. I found long lines got easily tangled around people and dogs, whereas a flexi can be reeled in short quickly and doesn't tangle


I actually found the opposite. I could stop my dog and reel him in much more easily on a long line than I could on a flexi. And that handle! It's so uncomfortable for me to hold. I never had the long line get wrapped around anyone yet have been wrapped up in several peoples flexis, it all depends on the user with both. Having seen so many flexis break on people, usually the locking mechanism, I don't trust them one bit. I used one in the garden for a while but the locking mechanism died very quickly. Each to their own though


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> While I agree with everything you have said in your final paragraph, I also know people who have never attempted to let their dogs off lead in case they run off. That is wrong to me; if you don't know how to teach a recall or don't trust yourself, get someone who does.
> 
> I know someone with a 9 year old cocker spaniel who has never once been off lead, because she is scared he will run off.
> 
> We used to have a dog who would take off for the day if he once got a chance, but it wasn't as though we didn't try.


billy my last collie never went off lead.

he wasn't very doglike, we would take him to the park and he would stare at us as if to say and now what? it was just the dog he was, he thought he was more a human than a dog. its not that we were bad owners to him the previous dogs went running all around the park as does alfie now on a long lead but billy just wasnt for it, he preferred the sofa anyday to a walk or the park and other dogs he was bemused by, he looked at us like oh look at the dog!

he would play fetch once or twice with us then give up, he just wasn't doglike in anyway but he was the sweetest and happy dog and lived to 14 for a rough thats pretty good going!

how alfie enjoys himself makes me really happy but it wasnt for billy, he didnt care for it no matter how we tried to take him out so noone can say it was cruel as it wasn't what he wanted.

i think you dont know until you have owned the dog what suits them best. just because your dog can be offlead from young doesnt mean others can.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

geminili said:


> H
> My pup approached an on lead aggressive dog with no muzzle (this dog was bigger than my dog and if it was to have escaped, I think my pup would have been in a very dangerous place, the owner warned me he is not dog friendly, I tried recalling but was unable to so I went to put my dog on the leash to walk away. The owner of the aggressive dog was struggling to hold her dog. My dog wasnt jumping but wanted to sniff this other dog. I felt the other owners tension made the situation worst. I got told off that if I couldnt control my dog it should be on a leash.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this situation?
> ...


If you see an on leash dog then imo it is common courtesy to keep your dog away from it until you've asked whether it's ok for yours to approach, if that requires a leash then use one. I never got nasty with those who actually tried to get their dog but it would still be a HUGE set back for my dog and extremely frustrating. I muzzled my dog but it would not have prevented him from attacking your dog and possibly injuring it.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I choose to walk my dogs in less populated areas and try to avoid other dog walkers, especially ones whom I have observed dont have the proper level of control. I've learned to avoid anybody I hear shouting at their dogs. If i'm in the woods and hear somebody yelling "get here Fido" then I quickly make a sharp exit because it usually spells trouble.

I dont have an aggressive dog but he's a little like me - grumpy and just wants to be left alone. A quick hello is ok but neither of us want prolonged greetings with our own kind! If I chose to take him on a very busy park with lots of dogs running round then I would expect to come across some sticky situations and wouldnt really expect other dogs to keep away. However, I do expect owners to keep their dogs away when we are walking on acres of land and it's blatantly obvious (to anybody with half an eye) that I dont want to interact.

Apart from the fact that, if another dog comes bounding over it's going to get a telling off (whether my dogs are on or off lead), other owners dont seem to appreciate that it takes a good deal of control to keep 3 dogs walking nicely with me without getting distracted and their dog running up trying to sniff bums or initiate play isnt helping my training and is downright rude. Leads get tangled (which then results in one of my dogs feeling trapped so he lashes out), I get pulled about whilst my dogs are trying to deal with the newcomer and it just causes chaos.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

geminili said:


> Hi I am new to this forum and joined specifically because of this thread.
> 
> I take my 8 month old labradoodle to the local downs, this is a massive open fields with public bridle way etc. Lots of dog walkers with their dog off lead. There are no specific rule whether dog should be off lead or on lead other than areas where sheep graze and there are notices to say dog should be on lead. I avoid these areas.
> 
> ...


I think it would be absolutely your fault if your dog approached an on lead dog and was attacked. It just is not fair on the owner of the on lead dog to allow your dog to do this.

At the same time I hate to see dogs that are on lead instead of running around enjoying themselves. If you have not yet got a good enough recall to call your dog back from another dog I think you have to be extra vigilant and get him back to you before he spots the other dog then you can pop him on the lead till you are past them. Can you teach him to drop on command. It is often easier to stop the dog rather than get it back to you.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

geminili said:


> Hi I am new to this forum and joined specifically because of this thread.
> 
> I take my 8 month old labradoodle to the local downs, this is a massive open fields with public bridle way etc. Lots of dog walkers with their dog off lead. There are no specific rule whether dog should be off lead or on lead other than areas where sheep graze and there are notices to say dog should be on lead. I avoid these areas.
> 
> ...


Aggressive or not, an on lead dog will feel intimidated when an off lead dog comes up too close because they can't get away from them. This is why I like to keep mine in a strictly off lead area.

The problem with training classes is that they do not relate to outside. Has your "trainer" done anything about teaching you to recall your dog from others? I think in your situation, you should have him on a long line so that you can at least step on it if he starts toward an on lead dog. And as Blitz said, you need to be vigilant and spot the on lead dog before he does.

All the Labradoodles I have so far met want to play with everything, so it won't be easy!



emmaviolet said:


> billy my last collie never went off lead.
> 
> he wasn't very doglike, we would take him to the park and he would stare at us as if to say and now what? it was just the dog he was, he thought he was more a human than a dog. its not that we were bad owners to him the previous dogs went running all around the park as does alfie now on a long lead but billy just wasnt for it, he preferred the sofa anyday to a walk or the park and other dogs he was bemused by, he looked at us like oh look at the dog!
> 
> ...




I didn't say they could, but I think one should at least try.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I didn't say they could, but I think one should at least try.


yes but if the dog is lost then it is too late.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

geminili said:


> Hi I am new to this forum and joined specifically because of this thread.
> 
> I take my 8 month old labradoodle to the local downs, this is a massive open fields with public bridle way etc. Lots of dog walkers with their dog off lead. There are no specific rule whether dog should be off lead or on lead other than areas where sheep graze and there are notices to say dog should be on lead. I avoid these areas.
> 
> ...


And what about if your dog has interfered with an injured or recovering on lead dog?
Yes accidents happen when you have a young dog. 
Every dog owner excepts that *but* it is something that should be avoided at all costs.

I had a incident yesterday where my old dog was upset about something and some people let there young off lead dog come and basically bomb him, upsetting him even more


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## geminili (Jan 1, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Aggressive or not, an on lead dog will feel intimidated when an off lead dog comes up too close because they can't get away from them. This is why I like to keep mine in a strictly off lead area.
> 
> The problem with training classes is that they do not relate to outside. Has your "trainer" done anything about teaching you to recall your dog from others? I think in your situation, you should have him on a long line so that you can at least step on it if he starts toward an on lead dog. And as Blitz said, you need to be vigilant and spot the on lead dog before he does.
> 
> ...


Yes he does want to play with everything! He can't seem to tell if the other dogs wants to play or not. I am hoping he will grow out of it. I think I will invest in this long lead for walks until his recall is much more realiable. And only let him off lead sometimes.

The trainer I took him to, just said dogs are inquisitive so to recall, run the other way, make sound or crouch down.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

geminili said:


> Hi I am new to this forum and joined specifically because of this thread.
> 
> I take my 8 month old labradoodle to the local downs, this is a massive open fields with public bridle way etc. Lots of dog walkers with their dog off lead. There are no specific rule whether dog should be off lead or on lead other than areas where sheep graze and there are notices to say dog should be on lead. I avoid these areas.
> 
> ...


Yep, it is not your fault. The other dog should have been muzzled as the owners know that it is not good with dogs. In my opinion people shouldn't be allowed to walk an aggressive dog in areas where they know they will encounter off lead dogs.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

dandogman said:


> Yep, it is not your fault. The other dog should have been muzzled as the owners know that it is not good with dogs. In my opinion people shouldn't be allowed to walk an aggressive dog in areas where they know they will encounter off lead dogs.


This attitude really worries me.
What if it had been an elderly woman with a very nervous dog?
Is that still ok for her to be mobbed by another dog, however friendly?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

rona said:


> This attitude really worries me.
> What if it had been an elderly woman with a very nervous dog?
> Is that still ok for her to be mobbed by another dog, however friendly?


If the dog owner knows the dog is aggressive then it shouldnt be walked where there are alot of off lead dogs. I think its just common courtesy. The nice dog was only sniffing the other dog, not 'mobbing' it!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> exactly. if Ollie starts running, I run with him so the flexi lead isn't restricting him. He gets as much running and fun on his flexi lead as he did off lead. I personally wouldn't want my dog to be off lead, but that's my opinion. I don't mind other dogs being off lead as long as they are well behaved.


Do you think a dog would be well exercised enough if the owner wasn't able to run, for instance a disabled or elderly person?


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## geminili (Jan 1, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Aggressive or not, an on lead dog will feel intimidated when an off lead dog comes up too close because they can't get away from them. This is why I like to keep mine in a strictly off lead area.
> 
> The problem with training classes is that they do not relate to outside. Has your "trainer" done anything about teaching you to recall your dog from others? I think in your situation, you should have him on a long line so that you can at least step on it if he starts toward an on lead dog. And as Blitz said, you need to be vigilant and spot the on lead dog before he does.
> 
> ...


I think I will invest in a long line until his recall his more reliable. Yes my dog just wants to play! I like his playfulness, but also looking forward to when he grows out of it and be more calm. He will be getting neutered in a few months time also.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> Do you think a dog would be well exercised enough if the owner wasn't able to run, for instance a disabled or elderly person?


maybe people are forgetting that others have gardens where they can have a good run too.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

dandogman said:


> If the dog owner knows the dog is aggressive then it shouldnt be walked where there are alot of off lead dogs. I think its just common courtesy. The nice dog was only sniffing the other dog, not 'mobbing' it!


yes, i do think any dog that has aggressive tenancies should prob be muzzled and things put in place where they try to avoid some.

the other day walking around a corner on his lead a dog came around and went for alfie, the woman said oh he dont like other dogs, so does that excuse the dog from anything as he doesnt like others.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

dandogman said:


> If the dog owner knows the dog is aggressive then it shouldnt be walked where there are alot of off lead dogs. I think its just common courtesy. The nice dog was only sniffing the other dog, not 'mobbing' it!



I gave you another scenario to consider.
Yes silly to walk an aggressive dog where others are walked without a muzzle, bit still doesn't make it acceptable to say that it was the other person completely at fault


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

rona said:


> I gave you another scenario to consider.
> Yes silly to walk an aggressive dog where others are walked without a muzzle, bit still doesn't make it acceptable to say that it was the other person completely at fault


Not really because if it was a nice dog on the other end then nothing would have happened. The other scenario doesnt matter, this thread isnt about that.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

dandogman said:


> Yep, it is not your fault. The other dog should have been muzzled as the owners know that it is not good with dogs. In my opinion people shouldn't be allowed to walk an aggressive dog in areas where they know they will encounter off lead dogs.


So where would you suggest aggressive dogs are walked? You know, since people don't bother with leash laws. I had off leash dogs approach mine at least once a week on the streets. Plus he got nothing out of street walks, not the exercise he needed or the mental stimulation. I had him muzzled and leashed by the way.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Bob is muzzled when out as he is reactive depending on the behaviour of the dog (if they ignore him, he ignores them but he gets upset by dogs running at him or barking & lungeing), & he is leashed for approaching strange dogs & I expect the same courtesy for us. It's very stressful for him & myself when an offlead dog that has no recall starts jumping all over him & the owner inevitably doesn't like his reaction


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## BumbleFluff (Jul 23, 2011)

I havent let Blue off lead yet, as her recall isnt great. Sometimes she'll stay right by me and come when called. But if theres another dog or someone walking by, she wants to run over to say hello. Im currently training her to be calmer and wait until shes allowed to greet. I know i should let her offlead soon, but she gets plenty of freedom on her longline (i drop the lead so shes got the freedom of running, but i can stand on the lead of needed) her 'down, wait' is getting better and better each day through training, im just waiting for the right time to trust her enough to let her off. Im hoping im being responsible and sensible enough by doing this.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> So where would you suggest aggressive dogs are walked? You know, since people don't bother with leash laws. I had off leash dogs approach mine at least once a week on the streets. Plus he got nothing out of street walks, not the exercise he needed or the mental stimulation. I had him muzzled and leashed by the way.


They should be walked around the streets or in a park/field as long as he is muzzled.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

There's a man near me walks his unmuzzled, on-lead DA staff along a narrow towpath where there are always off-lead dogs. It seems to me he's only making for a more stressful situation for his own dog and a dangerous one for everyone elses. I leash up and get my dogs to the side of the path when I see him coming but there's not much room even then. Anyone not having top class recall would be in a right mess. Technically it would be the fault of the off-lead dog if anything kicked off, but the DA dog shouldn't have been there in the first place, or should be muzzled.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

dandogman said:


> Not really because if it was a nice dog on the other end then nothing would have happened. The other scenario doesnt matter, this thread isnt about that.


Surely this was a discussion about the right and wrongs on both sides?
The question was in the title


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## Set_Nights (Sep 13, 2010)

I haven't read the whole thread but if an offlead dog gets bitten by an onlead, agressive dog I think it is entirely the fault of the offlead dog's owner. It doesn't matter how sociable YOUR dog is, you should not be letting your dog go up and greet strange dogs that are on lead. If YOU can't control your dog to stop it running off to greet everything it sees then you should be keeping your dog on a lead! Simple! The dog could be on a lead because it is very ill/fragile and could get damaged by your dog saying hello, it could have severe anxiety and get terrified by your dog and have a set back in its progress... or it could be agressive. You don't know the reason when your friendly dog is charging over to them so it is never acceptable and it is your own fault if your dog gets bitten... or a big kick by the owner of the on lead dog trying to protect its own!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> There's a man near me walks his unmuzzled, on-lead DA staff along a narrow towpath where there are always off-lead dogs. It seems to me he's only making for a more stressful situation for his own dog and a dangerous one for everyone elses. I leash up and get my dogs to the side of the path when I see him coming but there's not much room even then. Anyone not having top class recall would be in a right mess. Technically it would be the fault of the off-lead dog if anything kicked off, but the DA dog shouldn't have been there in the first place, or should be muzzled.


I dont think that man should be allowed to walk his dog there, just my opinion.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

dandogman said:


> They should be walked around the streets or in a park/field as long as he is muzzled.


But should still be put under stress by others untrained dogs because they are "friendly"?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

rona said:


> But should still be put under stress by others untrained dogs because they are "friendly"?


A friendly dog doesnt hurt anyone by being friendly.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

dandogman said:


> A friendly dog doesnt hurt anyone by being friendly.


I know for a fact that you are wrong, having had a dog go through a cruciate operation and all the recovery and care that entails


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## Mrs White (Jul 18, 2011)

All my boys and girls are controlled 100%, all the time because I am a considerate person 

Two of mine are ALWAYS on the lead because they are a liablity with wild-life here, so I run/hike/cycle with them for anything from 5-20 miles daily. 

I expect (no, DEMAND) the same absolute control from all other dog owners. Being uncontrolled is unacceptable for me, irregardless of size, temperament or star-sign of the other dog

Funnily enough, it's my two supposedly dangerous breeds that are off-lead constantly as they never stray more than 5 metres from my side and have no interest in other dogs or people. I just wish other people would control their fothermuckin' dogs:mad5:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

dandogman said:


> They should be walked around the streets or in a park/field as long as he is muzzled.


But this doesn't stop other dogs approaching and causing a problem. Nor does it stop another dog being hurt. Or the stress that a dog approaching him caused.

A dog being friendly may not have physically hurt Rupert but psychologically it did a hell of a lot of damage. And friendly dogs certainly hurt my collie when they knocked him down and trampled him.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

dandogman said:


> A friendly dog doesnt hurt anyone by being friendly.


Of course it does.

What about a friendly dog running over to small children on the park, who may be extremely scared. If it starts to jump on them in a playful manner, their parents may think their kids are in danger if they are not up to speed with canine body language.

What about a young, bouncy but large, friendly dog jumping all over an elderly or frail dog? This could cause physical hurt. Or causing mental and emotional stress to a dog that finds it difficult to cope with dogs approaching?

You're statement is both narrow minded and untrue and you sound like just the kind of person who I avoid like the plague.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

No recall = onlead

Shorty has recall but definetly not reliable with her selective hearing lol, so she is always onlead.

*A friendly dog doesnt hurt anyone by being friendly. *

^^ sorry but utter crap. Shorty is the friendliest dog you will ever meet but even with her onlead Ive seen other dogs terrified of her and tangle themselves attempting to get away from her despite being 10ft+ away, I dread to think how much of a panic the other dog would be in if Shorty got right in their face! 
I have also had "friendly" dogs bouncing around me attempting to get to Shorty and almost knocking me over in the process, considering I carry my 6mth old in a sling when i walk the dog its very dangerous


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

dandogman said:


> Not really because if it was a nice dog on the other end then nothing would have happened. The other scenario doesnt matter, this thread isnt about that.


Ok what about my dog who can be fearful of 'enthusiastic' approaches from strange dogs ( she was attacked and injured). Now she isn't agressive doesn't snap but either freezes or trembles in fear. Their approaches when I am unable to block them set back her rehabilitation. Is that ok? Should I walk her where she will never encounter other dogs for the rest of her days?

There are polite approaches and polite sniffing. Too few owners of rude "nice" dogs understand this.

A few months ago Tinker and i were approached at some speed by 2 " nice friendly" labs. A rude approach, Tinker's body language was clear to me ( hunched tail tucked under and stepping behind me) and i'm not fluent in dog. They then proceeded to sniff her so thoroughly that on actually lifted her rear legs off the ground with his snout to give her foofoo a detailed sniffing.(she's 15kg!) I suppose that was fine because they were 'nice and friendly' I'm sure if Tink had snapped you would label her a 'nasty agressive dog'

The owners unable to recall had do the walk of shame and collect them. A moment of embarassment. For a few weeks after Tink was nervous of walking down that path and was hypervigilant.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

dandogman said:


> A friendly dog doesnt hurt anyone by being friendly.


Pretty sure they can!


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## Set_Nights (Sep 13, 2010)

dandogman said:


> A friendly dog doesnt hurt anyone by being friendly.


Oh, you know this for a fact do you?

I remember being very distressed when my (very dog friendly!) dog was put at a very high risk of ripping a heap of stitches out after surgery because some numpty wouldn't control their "friendly" dog and call it away from my on lead dog when it was very clear that we were anxiously trying to get it away from our dog. Normally my dog would have loved the attention but she was put at real risk of harm because the other owner obviously thought it was ok for their dog to charge up to any dog it wanted just because it was friendly .


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

BumbleFluff said:


> I havent let Blue off lead yet, as her recall isnt great. Sometimes she'll stay right by me and come when called. But if theres another dog or someone walking by, she wants to run over to say hello. Im currently training her to be calmer and wait until shes allowed to greet. I know i should let her offlead soon, but she gets plenty of freedom on her longline (i drop the lead so shes got the freedom of running, but i can stand on the lead of needed) her 'down, wait' is getting better and better each day through training, im just waiting for the right time to trust her enough to let her off. Im hoping im being responsible and sensible enough by doing this.


to me this is perfect as the recall isnt completely in place and the dog gets the run anyway.

we do the same with alfies longline too, let it trail and then you have the security of stopping them when required. i think this is the most responsible thing to do for your girl, they don't have to be released off of these leads too quickly as they have alot of freedom with them.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

dandogman said:


> I dont think that man should be allowed to walk his dog there, just my opinion.


I think he shouldn't be allowed to be so stupid as to walk there, but free country and all...


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2012)

dandogman said:


> A friendly dog doesnt hurt anyone by being friendly.


Define friendly. I find many dog owners dont know the difference between a polite, friendly, dog and an obnoxious ill-mannered one.

Running up to another dog and shoving your sniffing face in to theirs is not friendly behavior in the dog world. Its rude, pushy behavior that in the dog world warrants a warning and/or a correction even from the most stable and tolerant of dogs.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I`m not taking sides.
> Just train your flippin` dog, tell her.
> It`s simply an excuse for an incompetent trainer.
> And for people who never let their poor animal run jump or swim because they`re terrified to let it off the bit of string...
> ...


This^^:thumbup1:


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

geminili said:


> Hi I am new to this forum and joined specifically because of this thread.
> 
> I take my 8 month old labradoodle to the local downs, this is a massive open fields with public bridle way etc. Lots of dog walkers with their dog off lead. There are no specific rule whether dog should be off lead or on lead other than areas where sheep graze and there are notices to say dog should be on lead. I avoid these areas.
> 
> ...


Without wanting to sound too harsh, I would say yes that was your fault. 
The aggressive/nervous dog was under control on a lead, and the owner warned you her dog did not want to be approached. Your dog was off lead and not under control as he ignored your recall, and approached anyway.
Kiva is 7 months old and I know her recall varies between 0 and 70% when there are other dogs around  and I also know that she is still under the impression that ALL dogs should enjoy playing as much as she does, therefore unless I know the owner/dog she goes on lead as soon as I spot another dog, wether they are on or off lead. Until she has a few more manners and self control that's the way it will be  
I am not trying to sound like I'm the perfect dog owner, I know im not and slip ups happen, but I do know that in the above quoted situation I would be holding myself responsible not the other owner. 
As an example, where I walk kiva most days it is a very popular field with dog walkers, and it has it's regulars lol the other day we were walking along with a gentleman and his 2 dogs (bailey an adult Springer, and Phoebe a 4 month old cocker) now we regularly meet these dogs, and walk along with them. The gentleman throws the ball the Springer chases the ball, kiva chases the Springer! Ha ha anyway there was another dog across the other side of the field and 'usually' if kiva is already playing with a friend she doesn't feel the need to go say hi to any in the distance, this time though she felt the urge to and went running over to say hi! There were 2 dogs one on lead and one off, I tried recalling her she ignored me so I swiftly followed her, and when I got there I apologised to the other owner who luckily was another regular and accepted my apology with good grace. Kiva then got put on her lead and stayed there for the rest of her walk.
On the other hand, while on the same field another day we were playing 'chase the frisbee, but then leave it for your human to retrieve'  when I spotted a lab we have not encountered at the other side of the field so I recalled kiva and put her on lead, 10 seconds later the lab was hurtling across the field with it's owner chasing it screaming 'no! Stop! Come here! For God's sake dog!' Etc etc.....I could see it was a young dog so stood still while he came and said hi. They sniffed, bowed, ran round in a few circles etc.... Then the owner got there and said 'oh he's only 10 months he does what he likes' to which I replied 'mine is 7 months and sometimes does the same' she grabs the labs collar walks 20 foot away and let's the dog back off, so it comes bounding back! She comes gets it, and i walk in the opposite direction. She let's go of the lab after 30 seconds or so and as we have gone the opposite direction it goes bounding up to another dog instead! Now I know first hand that this dog had no bad intentions and just wants to play but he had NO manners or self control, and his owner had 0 control over him but didn't even try to gain any! 
I know I have waffled on, sorry. But my point is that although I know my dog means no harm, I don't see that that gives her any right to be off lead and approaching any dog she likes. Nervous/aggressive dogs still deserve to be walked, and unless it is a *clearly marked, and designated* off lead area, then all dogs, whatever their temperament have just as much right to be there as each other, as long as they are under control. And if your dog cannot ignore a dog that is on lead, or any that you don't want them to, then it's not under control. I hope some of that made sense :shocked:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

He Just Wants To Say Hi!
http://www.nesr.info/images-english-shepherd/He-just-wants-to-say-hi.pdf

And this one I can certainly relate to!
My Dog is Friendly! A Public Service Announcement


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> for small-medium sized dogs, a decent sized flexi lead or long line can allow dogs to run, jump and swim. for larger dogs, long lines can also allow the dog to run and jump and play.
> 
> I don't see the big thing about dogs having to be off lead. yes, all dogs should have some freedom, whether thats off lead or on a flexi lead or long line, not just on a short lead all the time. But a flexi lead or long line can provide as much exercise as off lead for certain dogs IMO. Ollie gets as tired out on a flexi lead as he did when he was off lead, so I don't see the point in risking his life having him off lead, when he doesn't get any additional benefit from it.
> 
> If a dog is aggressive, it should be kept on a short lead and should have a behaviourist assess and help treat the problem, not just allowed to continue attacking other dogs, or not having some freedom.


I think you are kidding yourself if you believe a flexi lead gives your dog all the freedom it needs, Evie has to stay on one for some of her walks, but not all, because of sheep, I know she never gets as much out of these walks. Dogs have a right to some freedom. I'm shocked at the amount of dogs that never go off


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## Barryjparsons (Nov 27, 2011)

Surely if your dog is off lead in a common area once you see another dog (on lead or off) your dog goes back on lead until you have a discussion with its owner about the possibility of letting them off lead again? Both owners should do the same. End of story. 

If you can't teach recall, teach sit & stay. 

I wish someone would invent a flexi for large dogs with a clutch or something like abs. If they built it into the handle you could squeeze it slowing the dog but not dead stopping. Which would prevent injury to the dog and the owner being pulled off their feet.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

kat&molly said:


> I think you are kidding yourself if you believe a flexi lead gives your dog all the freedom it needs, Evie has to stay on one for some of her walks, but not all, because of sheep, I know she never gets as much out of these walks. Dogs have a right to some freedom. I'm shocked at the amount of dogs that never go off


well, you don't know my dog. I KNOW he gets as much exercise on his flexi as he would off lead, because he has been off lead before, and he doesn't get any additional benefit from it.

Some dogs won't though. But I'm saying, personally, my dog, gets as much exercise on a flexi as he would off lead and I'm not going to change my opinion of that. I don't just stroll along with a flexi in one hand, I run with him, play chase with him, let him play with other dogs, let him paddle in rivers and streams, everything he can do off lead.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> I think you are kidding yourself if you believe a flexi lead gives your dog all the freedom it needs, Evie has to stay on one for some of her walks, but not all, because of sheep, I know she never gets as much out of these walks. Dogs have a right to some freedom. I'm shocked at the amount of dogs that never go off


My neighbour has a springer who is now 6 and has never been off a flexi lead, simply because he couldnt be bothered to teach it recall. It's totally friendly but he said he runs up to other dogs so he never lets him off. Twice a day they go round the same cow field, maybe taking a trip to the shop on the way back - no more than a mile at best on each walk. He marvels at me because I take my dogs in the car and think nothing of driving an hour each way to make sure they have a good run, thats just unthinkable to him.

I know a small walk is better than no walk but for a springer who is designed to spend hours on end, day after day hunting through harsh cover, a 15 min walk on a flexi just isnt enough IMO.

For the breeds I own, I would never relegate them to a life on lead as I truly believe, in order to be fully satisfied, they need to burn off some serious energy by running about. My HPR runs for the sheer love of it, you can see the enjoyment in his face. He was bounding through the heather at distances of up to 200m away yesterday fully engrossed in doing what his genes were telling him to do. He could never get that kind of satisfaction from being kept on a lead.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

dandogman said:


> Not really because if it was a nice dog on the other end then nothing would have happened. The other scenario doesnt matter, this thread isnt about that.


Sorry, but you are talking rubbish, especially when referring to a large, off lead dog. Mine will go up to say hello to the friendliest on lead dog, but they will terrify it because it cannot get away and they tower above it. So the on lead dog will snap. Usually if that happens, mine will come back to me as they neither of them like confrontation, but it could so easily go the other way.



dandogman said:


> A friendly dog doesnt hurt anyone by being friendly.


It does if it treads on them or, as already said, goes up to an injured or nervous dog. Some people spend many months trying to socialise a nervous dog, then these friendly off lead dogs come along, just wanting to say hello, and scares the life out of him, putting all that socialising back months.



Leanne77 said:


> My neighbour has a springer who is now 6 and has never been off a flexi lead, simply because he couldnt be bothered to teach it recall. It's totally friendly but he said he runs up to other dogs so he never lets him off. Twice a day they go round the same cow field, maybe taking a trip to the shop on the way back - no more than a mile at best on each walk. He marvels at me because I take my dogs in the car and think nothing of driving an hour each way to make sure they have a good run, thats just unthinkable to him.
> 
> I know a small walk is better than no walk but for a springer who is designed to spend hours on end, day after day hunting through harsh cover, a 15 min walk on a flexi just isnt enough IMO.
> 
> For the breeds I own, I would never relegate them to a life on lead as I truly believe, in order to be fully satisfied, they need to burn off some serious energy by running about. My HPR runs for the sheer love of it, you can see the enjoyment in his face. He was bounding through the heather at distances of up to 200m away yesterday fully engrossed in doing what his genes were telling him to do. He could never get that kind of satisfaction from being kept on a lead.


I am with you. I cannot let Diva off on the local heath, as I do not trust her not to run away and I know she will go up to every dog she sees. So I drive half an hour to the off lead dog park.

It is not her fault, she has never seen anything other than other show newfies before. She looks quite astonished if another dog snaps at her! But I won't take chances with her or the safety of other dogs.

We can't do it as often as we would like, but if you are not prepared to put yourself out you should not have a dog and you certainly should not have a high energy dog.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

A Springer on a flexi:frown2:
Apart from A-B , getting to walks, my Springer has never had an on lead walk-to deprive her of that would be cruel. IMO
My other 3 are rescues and I've worked hard to get to where I am with them. Evies a Teckel[working bred Daxie] I'll think she may always be a work in progress kind of dog, and some sites suggest they are never off lead, but I do what I can and her little face when shes free running just brings me so much joy. Its a huge part of owning a dog.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> this is very true, alfie can run like usain bolt on a lone line and we know where he is and have control of him too.
> 
> also i think some are forgetting that they can run and leap and bound around in a garden where there is more safety and no other dogs to harm or get harmed by. i know some do not have one but others do and dogs can have exercise in gardens too!


sorry, but I cannot see how on earth a dog can get the same exercise on lead as off. My dogs are small dogs - one just under and one just over 7kgs. They are out on the farm and with the horses for approx 2 hours every day. We have a huge wild garden that they run around in like mad things. They get up to 3 miles fast road work when the weather is good enough to drive the ponies - sometimes even more. Yet they still need off lead walks and they race around and sniff everything and behave totally differently than they would on a flexi lead or long lead (which one of them has had to be on when she went through a bad stage of recall and is still on sometimes.
No way would either of them cope if all their exercise was on a flexi.



emmaviolet said:


> hi i know this wasnt directed to me but i like to keep alfie on the recall lead. my reasons for wanting my dog on a lead are to prevent accident, injury, loss and theft of the dog. also there are a lot of irresponsible owners who let their dogs off who are aggressive towards others and i dont want him to be in an accident because i would never forgive myself.
> 
> he is allowed off at the park we go to where there is a large secure enclosure and he goes in there with his doggy friends who we know and trust.
> 
> i wonder why ballybee you let a 10 week old pup off the lead with bad recall? is this just not a little dangerous because you wanted him offlead?


I take it you dont have children - or do you restrict them in the same way, just in case.

No 10 week puppy has a bad recall. If you let them off from that age they absorb their recall training and dont have to be 'trained' as such.



dandogman said:


> Yep, it is not your fault. The other dog should have been muzzled as the owners know that it is not good with dogs. In my opinion people shouldn't be allowed to walk an aggressive dog in areas where they know they will encounter off lead dogs.


How selfish is that. Why should the on lead dog be restricted where it can be walked because someone else cant be bothered to train their dog.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

he's not on a flexi lead but a longline recall lead, it is over 20 metres long, i know i always have him.

alfies recall wasnt bad at that age, he came, but he could run so fast that he might have not heard us or got himself into trouble, it is very young to just let them off and see, at that age alfie would just have run mad and tried to herd the dogs. i dont restrain him but he has to be under control. if he had gone up to an older dog and herded him i dont think they would have been amused. 

also there are reasons, i cant let him forage in the woods for instance as he has a weak immune system for tummy bugs, at 11 months old he has had 2 major ones, giardia and camplylobactor as advised by vets, dont let him pick up anything as he could catch another one.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Everyone who says dogs should be off lead, I don't think should judge. How do you know that some dogs (eg mine) get the same exercise on a flexi as off lead? You don't know these dogs. If you feel your own dog wouldn't get the same exercise, that is fine as some dogs need more exercise than others. However some dogs do absolutely fine on flexis and get the same amount of exercise on a flexi as off lead. And I'm not kidding myself for thinking that, because I have seen the evidence for myself with my own dog. 

My dog hasn't been off lead for well over a year, always on a flexi or on a short lead, and he certainly isn't hyper, or bouncing off the walls, or charging around on his lead, like some people would probably expect. He's calm, and usually is asleep all day. This says to me he's getting enough exercise.


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

I stopped walking in a few popular dog areas, because i got fed up of dogs harassing my 2 on lead dogs and the owners either miles away or calling them but too lazy to retrieve their dog when it failed, far too many seemed to have little control of their dogs for my liking. I've had the same issues with Hattie when she's been muzzled, its bright red so can be seen from a distance.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> maybe people are forgetting that others have gardens where they can have a good run too.


It would have to be an enormous garden for most dogs to really stretch out and run though...



dandogman said:


> Yep, it is not your fault. The other dog should have been muzzled as the owners know that it is not good with dogs. In my opinion people shouldn't be allowed to walk an aggressive dog in areas where they know they will encounter off lead dogs.





dandogman said:


> A friendly dog doesnt hurt anyone by being friendly.


But the onlead dog doesn't have to be aggressive for hurt to be caused.

I was out running with Kilo a few months ago. He is on a harness attached to my waist belt by a two metre line. We were running along and two huge rotts came bounding at us out of the woods - I could tell their intentions were friendly but Kilo gets a bit freaked out by being approached like this and can try to run away. Their owners were trying to recall them but they weren't having any of it. I stopped as I thought the chase was probably even more exciting. They reached us and bounded all over Kilo who couldn't escape; his head went down, tail tucked and he was spinning in circles and trying to hide between my knees. He then tried to bolt, pulling me over.

I stood up and the dogs carried on leaping all over us. Their owners had got to us by now and were chasing their dogs about, I couldn't reach Kilo's harness to release him which I would have liked to have done and he tried to bolt again, wrapping his line around me and causing me some nice burns / bruising.

The rotts were then caught and the owners very apologetic which I did accept with good grace. They went on their way and I was left bruised, filthy and embarrassed and, worse still, Kilo was left shaking and looking around wildly. We were nearly at the car so I walked back.

That probably sounds funny to most folk but at the time it was quite distressing. Those dogs were friendly and so is Kilo but hurt was still caused.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Leanne77 said:


> My HPR runs for the sheer love of it, you can see the enjoyment in his face. He was bounding through the heather at distances of up to 200m away yesterday fully engrossed in doing what his genes were telling him to do. He could never get that kind of satisfaction from being kept on a lead.


This is what bothered me about having to keep Rupert on a long line so much. He simply didn't get the same enjoyment out of it as he did being off leash and able to run, explore and do his own thing.


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## Mrs White (Jul 18, 2011)

Owing to the surfeit of uncontrolled dogs here I have no choice but to keep my Malamute and Lurcher constantly on leads as I don't want them "interacting" with the owner-less GSD's, Pits, Dogos etc. that litter the streets. 

I keep mine on a lead to prevent the carnage that would ensue if the undisciplined, uncouth (if dogs can be such a thing) street dogs were to bug them; so, today for example, I took them out attached to my bike, up a mountain (45 hell-for-leather mins of climbing the mountain and 15 mins free-wheeling back down). They won't move much except to eat until our two-hour hike tomorrow morning; so I've got to say that it is possible to give dogs sufficient exercise whilst on a lead, although admittedly, it's a royal pain in the arse because, like most folk, I'd rather be lying on a sofa eating crisps and drinking beer; however, when i rescued 'em it was, and continues to be, a serious undertaking for me, so it's just one of those things intrinsic to being a good owner IMO.

ETA All of my dogs get an hour or so of rough-housing a day between themselves in addition to their runs and hikes and swims. Visitors to my house think there is a daily fight-to-the-death scenario because my Dogo girl and Mal boy spend a couple of 30 mins periods a day going mental: wrestling, jumping, pinning each other etc which tires them more than our structured exercising does. Obviously, if I only had one dog there wouldn't be this option for them and their exercise demands, behaviour etc. would be very different


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Dogless said:


> It would have to be an enormous garden for most dogs to really stretch out and run though...
> 
> But the dog onlead dog doesn't have to be aggressive for hurt to be caused.
> 
> ...


That doesn't sound at all funny to me. I couldn't have mustered any good grace in those circumstances, would have given them a right gobful!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> That doesn't sound at all funny to me. I couldn't have mustered any good grace in those circumstances, would have given them a right gobful!


The female owner of the rotts was shrieking and freaked out so she was a bit shaken ....the man was laughing initially but then apologised when he saw how distressed Kilo was getting. I was quite frightened too and sore to be honest.


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

Just gonna pop in...

By law, if an off lead dog is bitten by an on lead dog, then it's the off lead dogs' owners fault. The dog that's off lead should be under control, and if it's not, then why is it off lead?

I agree with that completely...Which is why my dogs are never allowed to charge up to leashed dogs. I put my dogs back on lead when I see people walking with a leashed dog. It's polite, and means everybody is safe. 

I don't have aggressive dogs, and I get extremely annoyed when people let their dogs charge up to me and mine.

Just MHO.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Everyone who says dogs should be off lead, I don't think should judge. How do you know that some dogs (eg mine) get the same exercise on a flexi as off lead? You don't know these dogs. If you feel your own dog wouldn't get the same exercise, that is fine as some dogs need more exercise than others. However some dogs do absolutely fine on flexis and get the same amount of exercise on a flexi as off lead. And I'm not kidding myself for thinking that, because I have seen the evidence for myself with my own dog.
> 
> My dog hasn't been off lead for well over a year, always on a flexi or on a short lead, and he certainly isn't hyper, or bouncing off the walls, or charging around on his lead, like some people would probably expect. He's calm, and usually is asleep all day. This says to me he's getting enough exercise.


I do agree with this actually. Personally for me and my dog it's off-lead all the way :biggrin: but as for others, well 1. not my dog so not my concern and 2. it's not really any of my business how others choose to walk their dogs; as long as it's not causing upset/concern etc... to me and my dog.

Each to their own I say.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Mrs White said:


> Owing to the surfeit of uncontrolled dogs here I have no choice but to keep my Malamute and Lurcher constantly on leads as I don't want them "interacting" with the owner-less GSD's, Pits, Dogos etc. that litter the streets.
> 
> I keep mine on a lead to prevent the carnage that would ensue if the undisciplined, uncouth (if dogs can be such a thing) street dogs were to bug them; so, today for example, I took them out attached to my bike, up a mountain (45 hell-for-leather mins of climbing the mountain and 15 mins free-wheeling back down). They won't move much except to eat until our two-hour hike tomorrow morning; so I've got to say that it is possible to give dogs sufficient exercise whilst on a lead, although admittedly, it's a royal pain in the arse because, like most folk, I'd rather be lying on a sofa eating crisps and drinking beer; however, when i rescued 'em it was, and continues to be, a serious undertaking for me, so it's just one of those things intrinsic to being a good owner IMO.
> 
> ETA All of my dogs get an hour or so of rough-housing a day between themselves in addition to their runs and hikes and swims. Visitors to my house think there is a daily fight-to-the-death scenario because my Dogo girl and Mal boy spend a couple of 30 mins periods a day going mental: wrestling, jumping, pinning each other etc which tires them more than our structured exercising does. Obviously, if I only had one dog there wouldn't be this option for them and their exercise demands, behaviour etc. would be very different


yes, many keep their dogs on the lead to prevent any harm coming to their dog.

it is all well and good to say take the risk and let them run free but if alfie was to be attacked i would never forgive myself and then he would be messed up mentally for life. he is very trusting of all dogs and so is never weary of any so he would go up to one and it may attack him. it is responsible for some dogs to be on a lead.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Dogless said:


> It would have to be an enormous garden for most dogs to really stretch out and run though...
> 
> But the onlead dog doesn't have to be aggressive for hurt to be caused.
> 
> ...


Definitely doesn't sound funny to me at all, sounds pretty horrible actually  Kilo's not a small dog, you could have been really hurt by him pulling you over (accidentally of course, I didn't mean to sound like I was 'blaming' your lovely boy)


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

I think that the ideal position, is for a dog to get off lead exercise. I think owners should put a reasonable amount of effort to train their dogs to recall and be off the lead safely. II think its very hard to give a dog the same amount of exercise and fun on a lead as it would get off lead. 

However in some cases, no matter how much training you put in some dogs are never going to trustworthy off the lead. I think in these cases a responsible owner has to decide that their dog is not trust worthy. They either have to limit off lead time to safe areas or cut it out all together. This may not be the ideal thing to do, but I think in some cases its the mature thing to do. 

I think people saying that all dogs should be off the lead, or its just a matter of training, and that its cruel to keep a dog on a lead all the time isnt helpful, particularly when they have no idea about your dog.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Coffee said:


> Definitely doesn't sound funny to me at all, sounds pretty horrible actually  Kilo's not a small dog, you could have been really hurt by him pulling you over (accidentally of course, I didn't mean to sound like I was 'blaming' your lovely boy)


It was; didn't think you were 'blaming' him at all....he just acted on his instinct which is often to bolt when approached like this! However feel free to blame him for 'pheasantgate' where I was face down in some stinking slimy mud!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Spud the Bull Terrier said:


> I think people saying that all dogs should be off the lead, or its just a matter of training, and that its cruel to keep a dog on a lead all the time isnt helpful, particularly when they have no idea about your dog.


my thoughts exactly!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

As far as ime concererned with the exception of certain breeds and circumstances there is no reason to have a dog that cant be of lead, in most circumstances its the owner and not the dog i had 2 young springers together at one time and some hair raising experiences when teaching recall and if ide have given into my nerves i wouldnt have had and still have springers that love and enjoy off lead every day,every walk of their live, a lot is owners in-securities, thank god for my nerves of steel because my dogs benefit from that everyday.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> he's not on a flexi lead but a longline recall lead, it is over 20 metres long, i know i always have him.
> 
> alfies recall wasnt bad at that age, he came, but he could run so fast that he might have not heard us or got himself into trouble, it is very young to just let them off and see, at that age alfie would just have run mad and tried to herd the dogs. i dont restrain him but he has to be under control. if he had gone up to an older dog and herded him i dont think they would have been amused.
> 
> also there are reasons, i cant let him forage in the woods for instance as he has a weak immune system for tummy bugs, at 11 months old he has had 2 major ones, giardia and camplylobactor as advised by vets, dont let him pick up anything as he could catch another one.


But that is a different situation, isn't it? You have him on a lead of some sort, because you have to be extremely careful of what he picks up. Another reason why people should not tell other people what to do with their dogs.



Spud the Bull Terrier said:


> I think that the ideal position, is for a dog to get off lead exercise. I think owners should put a reasonable amount of effort to train their dogs to recall and be off the lead safely. II think its very hard to give a dog the same amount of exercise and fun on a lead as it would get off lead.
> 
> However in some cases, no matter how much training you put in some dogs are never going to trustworthy off the lead. I think in these cases a responsible owner has to decide that their dog is not trust worthy. They either have to limit off lead time to safe areas or cut it out all together. This may not be the ideal thing to do, but I think in some cases it's the mature thing to do.
> 
> I think people saying that all dogs should be off the lead, or its just a matter of training, and that its cruel to keep a dog on a lead all the time isn't helpful, particularly when they have no idea about your dog.


I agree. Having had a goldie and two newfies who were fine off lead, and a mongrel who took off for the rest of the day and now a newfie who I am pretty sure would do the same, it is a question of knowing your own dog. I would never presume to tell anyone else what to do, but I do think that a dog should be tried off lead.

Dogless' experience has reminded me of why I hate flexi leads. I used to have one on Ferdie when he was a very large puppy. We were walking past the house two doors away and the Mrs was outside. Ferdie, being friendly, went to say hello. I realised at once that she was frightened, but by that time she had turned her back on him and of course he follow round to her front. I told her to keep still, but she seemed to think I was talking to the dog, and she kept turning round. The result, of course, was one very tangled up neighbour.

I eventually had to hold Ferdie's collar, unclip the lead to unravel it, and clip it back on. Could have been nasty given the weight of the dog. The lock was of no use with him.


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## Mrs White (Jul 18, 2011)

Spud the Bull Terrier said:


> I think that the ideal position, is for a dog to get off lead exercise. I think owners should put a reasonable amount of effort to train their dogs to recall and be off the lead safely. II think its very hard to give a dog the same amount of exercise and fun on a lead as it would get off lead.
> 
> However in some cases, no matter how much training you put in some dogs are never going to trustworthy off the lead. I think in these cases a responsible owner has to decide that their dog is not trust worthy. They either have to limit off lead time to safe areas or cut it out all together. This may not be the ideal thing to do, but I think in some cases its the mature thing to do.
> 
> I think people saying that all dogs should be off the lead, or its just a matter of training, and that its cruel to keep a dog on a lead all the time isnt helpful, particularly when they have no idea about your dog.


:thumbup1:

I have two that run or walk right at my heels and never run off: my BT and my Dogo girl, so whether they are on or off-lead they get exactly the same exercise. I think they consider themselves my protectors and are freakishly vigilant. So a blanket statement (like all generalizations) about dogs not getting enough exercise if they're on the lead isn't always accurate.


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

I don't use flexi leads on big dogs. I walk two Lurchers, both on flexi's. I had a huge fright the other week, because Marlow, the Lab/Sighthound mix, leapt toward a cat. I heard a _ping_ and the lead unravelled! Nearly died on the spot. He'd pulled hard enough to unlock the lead, but not enough to break the lead. Lucky, because we were by a main road, and he doesn't have a name-tag or a good recall!

I did broach the subject with his owner, and from now on I'll be taking along a real lead.

That's why I don't like flexi leads for big dogs. I've been so careful not to let something like that happen. It happened anyway. It was just luck that he hadn't broken it.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Flexi-leads on big dogs make me shudder. There's a lovely old man at our local dog park who walks his adult male Dalmatian on one (and he is a BIG boy... a little too big actually, but that's another thread for another day ) and it always worries me when I see them. The dog pulls like a train too and the whole situation is just an accident waiting to happen I fear


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

Coffee said:


> Flexi-leads on big dogs make me shudder. There's a lovely old man at our local dog park who walks his adult male Dalmatian on one (and he is a BIG boy... a little too big actually, but that's another thread for another day ) and it always worries me when I see them. The dog pulls like a train too and the whole situation is just an accident waiting to happen I fear


Oh dear.  I've seen similar things...I once saw a little girl, no older than 10, being pulled toward a road by a large Boxer, in a harness, on an extending lead! I did go over and ask where her parents were and if she was alright. Really worrying to see that sort of thing.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Dogless' experience has reminded me of why I hate flexi leads. I used to have one on Ferdie when he was a very large puppy. We were walking past the house two doors away and the Mrs was outside. Ferdie, being friendly, went to say hello. I realised at once that she was frightened, but by that time she had turned her back on him and of course he follow round to her front. I told her to keep still, but she seemed to think I was talking to the dog, and she kept turning round. The result, of course, was one very tangled up neighbour.
> 
> I eventually had to hold Ferdie's collar, unclip the lead to unravel it, and clip it back on. Could have been nasty given the weight of the dog. The lock was of no use with him.


Just to clarify that Kilo wasn't being run on a flexi (I hate them having been tangled too many times by people walking dogs on them) but a shock absorbent line for running....however, the tangling effect was the same! BUT I don't let him roam on it; he usually just 'works' when we are running and doesn't go off sniffing or trying to meet dogs. It does have a handle near his harness for close control which I always use to pass people or dogs, I just didn't want to initially restrict him too much in case he felt vulnerable - then when it became clear that it was all going wrong I couldn't reach his harness as he was fighting so hard to run away or hide.

Our main drama when running is usually dogs running up that want to play as I can get pulled around something awful if they are persistent and Kilo then wants to play too!


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Doberma'am said:


> Oh dear.  I've seen similar things...I once saw a little girl, no older than 10, being pulled toward a road by a large Boxer, in a harness, on an extending lead! I did go over and ask where her parents were and if she was alright. Really worrying to see that sort of thing.


God, that's even worse


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Coffee said:


> Flexi-leads on big dogs make me shudder. There's a lovely old man at our local dog park who walks his adult male Dalmatian on one (and he is a BIG boy... a little too big actually, but that's another thread for another day ) and it always worries me when I see them. The dog pulls like a train too and the whole situation is just an accident waiting to happen I fear


Flexi leads make me sudder full stop, i cant see the reason for them tbh if a dog cant be srusted off lead them keep them on a short lead or in open spaces a long leash i see in most cases an idle way of exercising a dog that should be trained off lead.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Doberma'am said:


> I don't use flexi leads on big dogs. I walk two Lurchers, both on flexi's. I had a huge fright the other week, because Marlow, the Lab/Sighthound mix, leapt toward a cat. I heard a _ping_ and the lead unravelled! Nearly died on the spot. He'd pulled hard enough to unlock the lead, but not enough to break the lead. Lucky, because we were by a main road, and he doesn't have a name-tag or a good recall!
> 
> I did broach the subject with his owner, and from now on I'll be taking along a real lead.
> 
> That's why I don't like flexi leads for big dogs. I've been so careful not to let something like that happen. It happened anyway. It was just luck that he hadn't broken it.


I used to use a flexi on Ferdie when he was going through his hump everything that moves stage. He used to like to grab it in his teeth and play pullies, but one day he chewed right through it and I had to walk him home holding on to his collar. Didn't half hurt my back!


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> Flexi leads make me sudder full stop, i cant see the reason for them tbh if a dog cant be srusted off lead them keep them on a short lead or in open spaces a long leash i see in most cases an idle way of exercising a dog that should be trained off lead.


I use a rope flexi for my JRT. I use a harness, as well. I can send her down rabbit holes, and be able to get her out safely. If I'm not able to reel her out, I know how long the flexi lead is, so I can dig open wherever she's stuck to get her.  Which has happened before, BTW. I don't doubt she went down without a lead, she could be stuck, or get lost, and I'd have no idea where she is.

But that's the only reason I use one. She's an older girl now, so we usually just get the chicken-killer rodents from the garden now a days. :cornut:


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I used to use a flexi on Ferdie when he was going through his hump everything that moves stage. He used to like to grab it in his teeth and play pullies, but one day he chewed right through it and I had to walk him home holding on to his collar. Didn't half hurt my back!


Been there, done that. My back aches just thinking about it. I dropped the lead somewhere. Kay was only a puppy, so I was able to carry her home...But she was never a very small puppy.  I have her to thank for my biceps. :thumbup1:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> yes, many keep their dogs on the lead to prevent any harm coming to their dog.
> 
> it is all well and good to say take the risk and let them run free but if alfie was to be attacked i would never forgive myself and then he would be messed up mentally for life. he is very trusting of all dogs and so is never weary of any so he would go up to one and it may attack him. it is responsible for some dogs to be on a lead.


But like children we cant shield our dogs from everything, ive had springers for just over 13yrs and a cocker in that time and i think for this breed and many more its very important for them to be off lead and its only during the last 4 weeks that i have had 1 attacked which would have happened even if she had been on lead, so if i had thought safety first i would have had 3 springers and a cocker on lead and never knowing the pleasures of free running which whatever anyone says is the most important things in their life and for this breed, yes might be a bit hairaising at times but cannot for one minute except that recall is not possible, its the owners insecurities or failure in training and to me thats a shame.


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> But like children we cant shield our dogs from everything, ive had springers for just over 13yrs and a cocker in that time and i think for this breed and many more its very important for them to be off lead and its only during the last 4 weeks that i have had 1 attacked which would have happened even if she had been on lead, so if i had thought safety first i would have had 3 springers and a cocker on lead and never knowing the pleasures of free running which whatever anyone says is the most important things in their life and for this breed, yes might be a bit hairaising at times but cannot for one minute except that recall is not possible, its the owners insecurities or failure in training and to me thats a shame.


Off lead is safer...If your dog si attacked, it's better to let the dog off the lead to fend for itself. However, I do everything in my power to keep my dogs safe. No matter how stupid. 

My little JRT was attacked multiple times as a puppy, and only once was she injured, because me, being the brave/stupid person I am, put myself in between my leashed dog, who was a bit schitzo anyway (would have bolted for the way home, given the chance!). Weirdly, she wasn't mentally damaged by any of those experiences. She's fine with other dogs. it's just people she's terrified of! She doesn't crap on strangers anymore, so it's all good. :thumbup1: 

However...If you dog ISN'T being attacked, I believe firmly in leashing your dog before anything can happen. usually, the person with the off lead dog will get the message and leash theirs.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> well, you don't know my dog. I KNOW he gets as much exercise on his flexi as he would off lead, because he has been off lead before, and he doesn't get any additional benefit from it.
> 
> Some dogs won't though. But I'm saying, personally, my dog, gets as much exercise on a flexi as he would off lead and I'm not going to change my opinion of that. I don't just stroll along with a flexi in one hand, I run with him, play chase with him, let him play with other dogs, let him paddle in rivers and streams, everything he can do off lead.


Wow, your dog must be the exception to the rule then If he does the same on lead as he does off lead I don't understand why hes restricted.
I haven't singled you outof all the other owners but I do take take issue that it isn't a big thing for a dog to run free- it is.
We all have recall problems at one time or another, its how we deal with them that counts.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> But like children we cant shield our dogs from everything, ive had springers for just over 13yrs and a cocker in that time and i think for this breed and many more its very important for them to be off lead and its only during the last 4 weeks that i have had 1 attacked which would have happened even if she had been on lead, so if i had thought safety first i would have had 3 springers and a cocker on lead and never knowing the pleasures of free running which whatever anyone says is the most important things in their life and for this breed, yes might be a bit hairaising at times but cannot for one minute except that recall is not possible, its the owners insecurities or failure in training and to me thats a shame.


well he does do free running in the garden and in the park enclosure, where he is allowed to run anywhere with the recall lead on. i just have to be near him incase he goes to pick anything up etc.


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

Surely both owners have to take some responsibility?

If *person A *owns a dog that they know full well is DA, and will bite or attack, then they should *muzzle *their dog. It's not good enough to simply argue that _'all other dogs off lead should have perfect recall and never approach my dog_'!!! *We live in the real world and dogs DO run up to other dogs - whether they should or not!*

Equally, if * person B * knows full well that they have little or no recall with their dog, then *THEIR* dog should *NOT *be off leash but on a Flexi. That way they are protecting their dog from possible harm, resulting from running up to another dog that is DA.

My dog has 98% recall but the 2% puts him at risk. Thus he is only totally off leash at one particular park, where the same people tend to go all the time.

When we go anywhere else, he is on a Flexi. No, it's not ideal for a big Lab to be on a Flexi but after my brother's Lab got mauled terribly after he ran up to an OFF LEASH dog, I prefer to err on the side of caution....


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

TabithaJ said:


> My dog has 98% recall but the 2% puts him at risk. Thus he is only totally off leash at one particular park, where the same people tend to go all the time.
> 
> When we go anywhere else, he is on a Flexi. No, it's not ideal for a big Lab to be on a Flexi but after my brother's Lab got mauled terribly after he ran up to an OFF LEASH dog, I prefer to err on the side of caution....


this to me is responsible ownership and not just thinking the dog will be better off offlead and doing it anywhere and all the time. accidents do happen and its best to err on the side of caution for whats beat for our dogs.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

kat&molly said:


> Wow, your dog must be the exception to the rule then If he does the same on lead as he does off lead I don't understand why hes restricted.
> I haven't singled you outof all the other owners but I do take take issue that it isn't a big thing for a dog to run free- it is.
> We all have recall problems at one time or another, its how we deal with them that counts.


I agre with you with the exception of my youngest i swear molly was born trained :biggrin:but my 2 boys needed work and work was i was prepared to put in and ignore my,omg he will go and never come back that actually isnt a spaniels way their way is before trained to take off leaving us owners with our heart in our mouths but to came back its their nature. 
I can only speak for spaniels as it all ive ever known really and i do not believe they are truely happy without been off lead as far anyone that says they can do the same on a flexi or long lead i cannot believe that for one minute, omg when i think of 13 yrs keeping up with mine ide be 6ft underit aint possible.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> well he does do free running in the garden and in the park enclosure, where he is allowed to run anywhere with the recall lead on. i just have to be near him incase he goes to pick anything up etc.


Free running in a garden isn't the same, my friend is very lucky to have 18 acres for her dogs to tear around in all day. They still need walks off site for the different smells.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> well he does do free running in the garden and in the park enclosure, where he is allowed to run anywhere with the recall lead on. i just have to be near him incase he goes to pick anything up etc.


Oh i remember that picking anything up i sight especially with my 2nd springer my eldest now, so i taught "leave it" if he was out of sight or at a distance where i couldnt see, god knows what he ate.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Oh i remember that picking anything up i sight especially with my 2nd springer my eldest now, so i taught "leave it" if he was out of sight or at a distance where i couldnt see, god knows what he ate.


yes and with him having caught giardia and camphlobactor in 9 months i think ill stick by him.

18 acres is enough for free runnimg not many parks are bigger! he cant get into other things for the tummy reason!


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## geminili (Jan 1, 2012)

haeveymolly said:


> Oh i remember that picking anything up i sight especially with my 2nd springer my eldest now, so i taught "leave it" if he was out of sight or at a distance where i couldnt see, god knows what he ate.


Hmm I say my dog leaves things (manure, bottles) 98% if the time, I wonder leave it command will work on greeting other dogs....


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Doberma'am said:


> Off lead is safer...If your dog si attacked, it's better to let the dog off the lead to fend for itself. However, I do everything in my power to keep my dogs safe. No matter how stupid.
> 
> My little JRT was attacked multiple times as a puppy, and only once was she injured, because me, being the brave/stupid person I am, put myself in between my leashed dog, who was a bit schitzo anyway (would have bolted for the way home, given the chance!). Weirdly, she wasn't mentally damaged by any of those experiences. She's fine with other dogs. it's just people she's terrified of! She doesn't crap on strangers anymore, so it's all good. :thumbup1:
> 
> However...If you dog ISN'T being attacked, I believe firmly in leashing your dog before anything can happen. usually, the person with the off lead dog will get the message and leash theirs.


Yep i agree safety from an un-known dog is paramount and as i said in an earlier post if mine are off lead and someone leashes their dog i see that as a signal of caution and will leash mine or make them walk by my side, id ever mine was attacked while on leash which is very rare i would let them free as i know, well one is run off and the other would stand her ground for all of one second and then run for it,


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I know a few people who muzzle their dogs when off leash because of their scavenging. That would be my choice if that was the only reason they had to be on leash.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> I know a few people who muzzle their dogs when off leash because of their scavenging. That would be my choice if that was the only reason they had to be on leash.


I know a few that do that too; seems sensible!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

geminili said:


> Hmm I say my dog leaves things (manure, bottles) 98% if the time, I wonder leave it command will work on greeting other dogs....


Mmmmm not so sure leave other dogs is another issue much harder, they are soooo exciting, we got there but that was the toughest my first springer just loved manure to eat and to roll in he arrived home many times a total disgrace....... smelly coat and the breath........ yuk!!!!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I know a few that do that too; seems sensible!


I've heard people say it's cruel and spoils the dogs walk but it doesn't stop them running, sniffing and doing doggy things. Rupe preferred to be off leash and muzzled to on leash and unmuzzled, it was far more fun.


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

RE FLEXI LEADS

Having read quite a few negative remarks about these can I just note:

*Yes, it is lunacy to ever walk any dog on a Flexi near roads and traffic! *I never do this -* not even if the Flexi is in the 'locked' position.
*
That said, for me a Flexi, when used in parks/fields etc is fabulous.

I tried using a long line and harness for months on end. It was an utter nightmare. The line kept getting wrapped around other dogs, and people's legs - to the point where it was dangerous. When it got wrapped around a young child's foot, I vowed never to use it again.

Also with the long line, I could never actually stop Dex from taking off at speed, because he's so strong.

With the right sized Flexi, though, I have none of these problems. I use one that is 8 metres, all tape, and I don't let him get to the end of the tape. I find the Flexi really helpful for reinforcing commands including recall and also 'stay'.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2012)

Just another story...

Two days ago I was walking Kenzie at one of the off lead parks near us which we go to quite often as there are always lots of dogs around to play with. We hadn't been there more than 2 minutes when a mini-schnauzer came racing over.

Kenzie doesn't like it when dogs charge at her anyway, but this schnauzer then started jumping on Kenzie and trying to bite her on the back  It was definitely not play! Kenzie was obviously quite upset by this so I picked her up - something I don't do unless absolutely necessary - so the lady could get control of her dog. 

Eventually she got her dog and moved off a little distance and Kenzie and I tried to carry on with our walk, but this schnauzer came straight over TWICE MORE in the same aggressive way. I gave her the benefit of the doubt the first time but couldn't believe that she let it happen three times and I had to actually ask her to put her dog on a lead!

Luckily she wasn't hurt but she was a bit shaken up, and she still gets a bit nervous when she sees a schnauzer (there are lots around here).

Just a pointless story!!!


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

TabithaJ said:


> Surely both owners have to take some responsibility?
> 
> If *person A *owns a dog that they know full well is DA, and will bite or attack, then they should *muzzle *their dog. It's not good enough to simply argue that _'all other dogs off lead should have perfect recall and never approach my dog_'!!! *We live in the real world and dogs DO run up to other dogs - whether they should or not!*
> 
> Equally, if * person B * knows full well that they have little or no recall with their dog, then *THEIR* dog should *NOT *be off leash but on a Flexi. That way they are protecting their dog from possible harm, resulting from running up to another dog that is DA.


But Dog A doesn't need to be aggressive. Maybe he doesn't like playful dogs, or doesn't like being charged at, or maybe he's fearful? Maybe he's an older dog, who doesn't like bouncy young dogs in his face? A dog doesn't need to be aggressive, to bite. He just needs not to like something.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Doberma'am said:


> But Dog A doesn't need to be aggressive. Maybe he doesn't like playful dogs, or doesn't like being charged at, or maybe he's fearful? Maybe he's an older dog, who doesn't like bouncy young dogs in his face? A dog doesn't need to be aggressive, to bite. He just needs not to like something.


I think it depends what you class as a bite to be honest. My collie would have a right old go when knocked down and trampled but it was all noise and slobber. Rupert on the other hand would have caused serious damage to a dog simply for approaching him. I don't feel Shadow should have been muzzled although many other owners did but I certainly feel Rupert needed to be.


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

Doberma'am said:


> But Dog A doesn't need to be aggressive. Maybe he doesn't like playful dogs, or doesn't like being charged at, or maybe he's fearful? Maybe he's an older dog, who doesn't like bouncy young dogs in his face? A dog doesn't need to be aggressive, to bite. He just needs not to like something.


Sure, that is true. I was addressing a specific scenario.

And yes, in an ideal world, of course all dogs would have wonderful recall.

But in the real world, some owners don't bother to work on it and some dogs are harder than others to achieve a good recall with.

Also, those of us that are working ON recall need to work on it IN our local parks  If I take Dex to a local park to practise recall, and if one out of ten recalls fails and he goes trotting over to greet another dog, then I don't feel great about it BUT I have to practise the recall at some point around off leash dogs.....


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

Sarah, a bite, for me, is where the dog draws blood. 

(Not related to your post) Dogs shouldn't be muzzled for being fearful, nor should they be muzzled for not liking something. If they were to be aggressive, it's a different story. But generally, a dog that doesn't like something will walk away from it if able. Leashed dogs that are being charged by off lead dogs can't get away unless their owner lets the lead go. The only thing the dog can do then, is to warn, when that's ignored, snap, when that fails, bite.

But even muzzled, harnessed and geared up dogs are treated as average dogs by the general public sometimes. When I had Jack, I had him on a nylon and basket muzzle, car harness for the handle, reflective jacket and Gentle leader. He was fear aggressive toward people and dogs, attacking first and thinking later. So many times, people let their dogs run up to me, and then complain dthat my dog scared their dog. 

I think it was those experiences that made me realise how rude just letting your dog see others as she pleases really was. Even if your dog is friendly, that guys dog might not be. You need to think of other people, as well as yourself, and other peoples dogs, as well as your own. It's your responsibility to keep your dog safe from others and others safe from your dog.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

See a bite to some is anything where the dog so much as looks funny at their dog 

Rupert was terrified of other dogs and I did my utmost to prevent them getting close enough that he felt he had to react but occasionally one would get past me. He wore a muzzle because he would go straight for multiple, uninhibited bites, no real warning between him stiffening up and him biting like that. Had he just been the sort to nip in warning I wouldn't have muzzled him. I did hope him being muzzled would make people at least try to keep their dogs away but it didn't.

I never allowed my last two to just run up to other dogs if I could help it but it's only since getting Rupe that I've realised just how awful it can be from the point of view of the other dog and their owner.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

kat&molly said:


> I think you are kidding yourself if you believe a flexi lead gives your dog all the freedom it needs, Evie has to stay on one for some of her walks, but not all, because of sheep, I know she never gets as much out of these walks. Dogs have a right to some freedom. I'm shocked at the amount of dogs that never go off


My dog has NEVER been offlead. ever.
I work my ar$e off with a small baby ensuring she gets the exercise she needs, can you say the same?

She is rig trained, we do weight training in the winter months, she is walked 4-6 miles a day and we continually play games in the house. She is a working breed and worked hard, a little different from alot of ignorant idiots who stand in the park messing about on their mobiles while their dog runs amok offlead for half an hour before being chased down and put back on their lead.

Which dog is more stimulated mentally and physically?
RESPONSIBLE dog owners ensure their dogs needs are met, it simply means putting in more work with an onlead dog to ensure this and most cant hack it


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Starlite said:


> My dog has NEVER been offlead. ever.
> I work my ar$e off with a small baby ensuring she gets the exercise she needs, can you say the same?
> 
> She is rig trained, we do weight training in the winter months, she is walked 4-6 miles a day and we continually play games in the house. She is a working breed and worked hard, a little different from alot of ignorant idiots who stand in the park messing about on their mobiles while their dog runs amok offlead for half an hour before being chased down and put back on their lead.
> ...


Ahem, you have a Mal , they are a different kettle of fish altogether. There are people on this forum with 'breeds' that should be off but they never have been even from pups I dont have 'dog parks' or a mobile, and hopefully my dogs get enough exercise and stimulation , I'd be failing them as a dog owner otherwise.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> Ahem, you have a Mal , they are a different kettle of fish altogether. There are people on this forum with 'breeds' that should be off but they never have been even from pups I dont have 'dog parks' or a mobile, and hopefully my dogs get enough exercise and stimulation , I'd be failing them as a dog owner otherwise.


What like Seven Pets who set up agility equipment in her garden to keep her dog active, entertained and stimulated?


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

rona said:


> What like Seven Pets who set up agility equipment in her garden to keep her dog active, entertained and stimulated?


Do you seriously think agility in the garden is better than a dog getting free running:frown2:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> Do you seriously think agility in the garden is better than a dog getting free running:frown2:


Yes if it is a the safest option.
It uses muscles, brain and agility. A walk around park every day probably does far less.
He looks really hard done by doesn't he
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-photo-galleries/197995-ollies-agility-training-cute-poses.html

You cannot possible know the effort she has put in and the stress she put herself under to come up with this very good compromise


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> What like Seven Pets who set up agility equipment in her garden to keep her dog active, entertained and stimulated?


I dont think thats enough for a spaniel tbh, jumping over obs is nothing compared with running over fields, sniffing in and out of hedgerows i would still feel like ide failed my spaniels in some way, ime not saying cockers are easy and they certainly give you a few scares but they get there with patience and bit of umph


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

Er. I do all sorts with my dogs, but off lead exercise, or at least running, is the only thing that stops them from bouncing off the walls.  I prefer cycling with them, because then it's like I'm running with them, and it's just more fun.

But without off lead exercise, mine would kill themselves on various hosuehold objects.  Not sure what that says about me, as an owner. I believe dogs should have a run a day, plus any extras. Just my opinion. :cornut:

If you can do it without a lot of physical exercise on the dogs part, then I applaud you! :thumbup1:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> Yes if it is a the safest option.
> It uses muscles, brain and agility. A walk around park every day probably does far less.
> He looks really hard done by doesn't he
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-photo-galleries/197995-ollies-agility-training-cute-poses.html
> ...


but the same effort could see a dog enjoying free running and doing what dogs do naturally rather some manufactured substitute, agility to me is an extra not a dogs way of life.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> I dont think thats enough for a spaniel tbh, jumping over obs is nothing compared with running over fields, sniffing in and out of hedgerows i would still feel like ide failed my spaniels in some way, ime not saying cockers are easy and they certainly give you a few scares but they get there with patience and bit of umph


He is a show breed spaniel and also gets long walks a day.
Far more active life than many other spaniels bred to the show life.
You really can't compare your working types to an out and out show bred springer. They are a different breed.
Obviously you'll get the odd one with the intense instinct but in general I think it is now very muted in show bred spaniels


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## Zoojie (Aug 4, 2011)

Personally I don't like flexi leads, being on the bad end of being tangled in them when I was younger by my mums springer spaniel! 

I don't think there is a wrong or right answer to the 'should dogs be kept on lead at all times' argument, as it's all dog, situation and owner specific. 

HOWEVER I think that the argument that dogs should be able to be recalled away from other dogs, people or other potential dangers is a MUST. 

I also agree with Starlite's side note that people in the park ignoring their dogs in favour of their mobile phone, iPod, (or in one bizarre case, a book) and having their dogs running up to whomever they please, is unacceptable. If you are here to walk your dog, pay attention.

I let Loki off the lead in the local country park. His recall is improving, he has been on a long line for a lot of his teenage phase, and I now pay careful attention to my surroundings to be able to reinforce that behaviour, recall him before the distraction is too close, and put him on the lead. Then, with owners permission, I let him greet on the lead (as practice) and then off the lead for a play. 

It also means I put him on the lead around blind corners, and other 'key' distractions. 

I don't see why people can't do me the same courtesy and have control of their dogs until they are sure I am not a) training, or b) Loki isn't going to attack their dog. The park I go to hasn't got onlead/offlead area restrictions, so while giving him offlead time, I do stick to playing it safe, as I would expect others to.

It's the ones who have zero control, and zero WILL to control their dogs that wind me up most! 2 steps forward, 1 step back in training due to some people I meet on walks!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> but the same effort could see a dog enjoying free running and doing what dogs do naturally rather some manufactured substitute, agility to me is an extra not a dogs way of life.


I couldn't do it with Alfie.
I have to be very choosy where I walk him off lead.
I'm lucky however to have a few safe areas to choose.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

rona said:


> Yes if it is a the safest option.
> It uses muscles, brain and agility. A walk around park every day probably does far less.
> He looks really hard done by doesn't he
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-photo-galleries/197995-ollies-agility-training-cute-poses.html
> ...


I do know actually, I've read loads of threads on Ollie, I think SP has done well this past year, but it was she who claimed letting a dog off lead 'isn't a big thing' and a flexi is as good as a free run.
Agility is good but its not the same as all those different smells and new experiences.
I think too many people accept a bad recall, stick a dog on a long line and thats it for the rest of the dogs life. I'm no trainer , I never will be but if I have recall then I'm happy and so are my dogs.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> He is a show breed spaniel and also gets long walks a day.
> Far more active life than many other spaniels bred to the show life.
> You really can't compare your working types to an out and out show bred springer. They are a different breed.
> Obviously you'll get the odd one with the intense instinct but in general I think it is now very muted in show bred spaniels


In the research i did exercise wise a show springer and a working springer has the same needs, the only difference is a working springer could not be shown but a show springer can be trained for field trials, they actually have the same needs. If a show cocker can do agility then it has the stamina and energy of a working, the difference is free running gives a dog whatever the breed something very different to a garden jumping obs or been kept on a leash. A dog with good to reasonable recall can be achieved with lots of get up and go from the owner along with patience and understanding of the breed with the exception of some breeds but certainly with a spaniel.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> I do know actually, I've read loads of threads on Ollie, I think SP has done well this past year, but it was she who claimed letting a dog off lead 'isn't a big thing' and a flexi is as good as a free run.
> Agility is good but its not the same as all those different smells and new experiences.
> I think too many people accept a bad recall, stick a dog on a long line and thats it for the rest of the dogs life. I'm no trainer , I never will be but if I have recall then I'm happy and so are my dogs.


You don't think she may be still beating herself up over it and trying to get peace of mind by hoping for others in the same boat?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> In the research i did exercise wise a show springer and a working springer has the same needs, the only difference is a working springer could not be shown but a show springer can be trained for field trials, they actually have the same needs. If a show cocker can do agility then it has the stamina and energy of a working, the difference is free running gives a dog whatever the breed something very different to a garden jumping obs or been kept on a leash. A dog with good to reasonable recall can be achieved with lots of get up and go from the owner along with patience and understanding of the breed with the exception of some breeds but certainly with a spaniel.


There's a thing called drive, that's the difference normally between a FT winner and an also run,
I think this applies to the difference in types


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## Suek (Apr 1, 2008)

Some dogs are kept on leads for reasons other than aggression (I think it was Sarah1983 that said she avoided dogs on leads because they maybe aggressive, pls correct me if I'm wrong - I've had a couple of vino's)

They could be on lead because they are rescues and not been trained to recall yet, but still need to go out :thumbup1:

I was out once with my dog who was on a lead and a couple of old ladies were walking their small terrier and it jumped up on a child, the child was absolutely terrified, her mother had to pick her up she was so distressed, but did the old buggers go and apologise? did they hell - they thought it was funny 'oh he wont hurt you' they laughed,

Makes me so angry when us responsible owners put ours on leads, I always put my two on leads when I see people or dogs approaching it is one of my bugbears that others dont - rant over 

off for more vino :thumbup1:


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

we have 6 dogs one of which a bullmastiff is dog aggressive she is fine if introduced to dogs properly but not if they just come bounding up to her so we never let her off the lead 
i really hate it when off lead dogs come running up to my dog as i am then strugling with a frothing at the mouth 8 stone bullmastiff who want a piece of their ass 
they ( the off lead dog will say) say oh my dog is ok - well mine isnt and she is on a lead and if you cant control your dog dont let it off the bloody lead 
on the other hand some off lead dogs and owners are great there dogs walk up slowly to my dog and there is not a problem 

our puppies we take them out on a lead then when we get to a open space i swop to the retractable lead so that they can have a run around for a bit but if i see other dogs or people i do bring them back in


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents into the debate.

Excuse me if I am just repeating what has been said as I havent read through every single reply.

In my opinion, like another member has said, it all depends on the environment. I know if I take my 2 down the park outside my house we WILL run into dogs, BUT as I know 99% of the owners and dogs (even though the majority have no re-call but are friendly, its okay for me) I know which dogs to avoid and which they can go over and sniff etc.

Yes, I agree dogs should have re-call to obviously be re-called away from on-lead dogs, although as responsible owners, we should always treat other unknown people as idiots until we know their ok(not calling anyone here an idiot, but you get my drift) because we have all encountered the odd idiot (or 10) down the park whose dog has no recall and the owner doesnt give a hoot.

Depending on how reactive/DA/stressed your dog gets around other dogs, I think you really need to think long and hard about the pros and cons of taking your dog down the local off lead park. I 100% agree dogs have to be given a chance (oh boy dont I know it!) and I'm fortunate enough in the respect that my dogs arent DA but Charlie can be very dog reactive which can lead to DA and Dottie is a nervous, unconfident dog, but their not TOO bad that I can not walk them amongst other dogs (on flexi) and try and build them up, plus physically, at 10kgs each, I can also control them easier too.

I think if the dog is REALLY bad then you have to (and believe me I do it every day) plan out your walks and think about what you may encounter. I avoid walking down alley ways, places heavily populated with kids (when walking Dottie) you HAVE to weigh up the pros and cons. I've done it before and thought "Aaah, I'll be alright, I can walk here..." and then I've encountered something or another dog that may have undone mine and Dotties past 3 good walks. 

I agree DA/re-active dogs need to get interaction, but it seems a dog training class is more ideal as you get a professional on hand and its under a controlled environment to help build up your dogs confidence slowly. I think going the extra mile and perhaps driving/walking your dog in perhaps say a bigger field with less dogs, would be good too.

Sorry I am rambling and going off topic kinda, but I think a good solid re-call is crucial if your dog is off lead, for everyone's safety. I've had the bouncy little puppy come jumping up all over Dotties face whilst shes been on her flexi and the owner cant get them back, but at the same time I've been the ass (long time back!) who couldnt re-call their dogs and come running over saying "Sorry! Sorry!" when that isnt good enough. 

May I just point out incase any of you were wondering, having 2 high energy dogs, I do walk Dottie and Charlie (seperatley) to a local quarry about 15 minute walk away, where they can have a good off-lead run and sniff and really pelt about for the best part of an hour, great place hidden away where I can stand and watch the entrance/exit and call them back if I need to. I think Dottie would go stir crazy kept on a lead, BUT I keep telling myself, its not forever, its only temporary until she's a confident dog.

I hope one day to walk my 2, together, confidently in parks and dog parks without having to worry about them or other peoples/dogs safety but until then, I'll keep my 2 on a flexi lead down the dog park and plan each walk out like a military operation until I can!


xxx


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> There's a thing called drive, that's the difference normally between a FT winner and an also run,
> I think this applies to the difference in types


Ime sure if working springers and mine are all from ftch and ftw can run around free and have good recall then a lower energy show cocker can, i know that SP has actually said before that he will not be let of lead because of his poor recall and he makes her nervous, well so did mine, more times than i care to think about but this has to be put aside for the welfare of the dog, thats my opinion and nothing will change that ime a big believer that a dog should be off lead if the only problem is down to recall training.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

rona said:


> You don't think she may be still beating herself up over it and trying to get peace of mind by hoping for others in the same boat?


Its about giving our dogs a good live and fullfilling their needs.
SP started a thread about getting 1-1 training to sort recall , then the next one says Ollie will never be off lead I am not picking on her at all just her comments I didn't agree with.


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## cravensmum (Jun 28, 2010)

I have been trying to keep out of this thread,but as we seem to be on the subject of Ollie,SP did a thread last week I think,where they had been on a country walk and there was a beautiful photo of Ollie sitting offlead,I was so pleased,but then she said that she had unclipped him just to take the photo and then clipped him back on again as soon as the photo was taken.

That did not look like a dog who was about to run away at any time,and I should know.

We all know the work that SP has put in and it seems to be working,I for one would love to see photos of Ollie running free.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Ime sure if working springers and mine are all from ftch and ftw can run around free and have good recall then a lower energy show cocker can, i know that SP has actually said before that he will not be let of lead because of his poor recall and he makes her nervous, well so did mine, more times than i care to think about but this has to be put aside for the welfare of the dog, thats my opinion and nothing will change that ime a big believer that a dog should be off lead if the only problem is down to recall training.





kat&molly said:


> Its about giving our dogs a good live and fullfilling their needs.
> SP started a thread about getting 1-1 training to sort recall , then the next one says Ollie will never be off lead I am not picking on her at all just her comments I didn't agree with.





cravensmum said:


> I have been trying to keep out of this thread,but as we seem to be on the subject of Ollie,SP did a thread last week I think,where they had been on a country walk and there was a beautiful photo of Ollie sitting offlead,I was so pleased,but then she said that she had unclipped him just to take the photo and then clipped him back on again as soon as the photo was taken.
> 
> That did not look like a dog who was about to run away at any time,and I should know.
> 
> We all know the work that SP has put in and it seems to be working,I for one would love to see photos of Ollie running free.


Do you know how many dogs end up on dog lost because "dogs need to be let off lead"

I know two recently


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Suek said:


> Some dogs are kept on leads for reasons other than aggression (I think it was Sarah1983 that said she avoided dogs on leads because they maybe aggressive, pls correct me if I'm wrong - I've had a couple of vino's)


No, I owned an aggressive dog who was kept on leash (unless in a secure area) and muzzled in public  I did say I think it's common courtesy to ask before letting your dog approach a leashed dog though, there may well be a good reason the dog is on leash. It could be aggressive, recovering from surgery, sick, nervous, infirm or in training. Or just have no recall.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

cravensmum said:


> I have been trying to keep out of this thread,but as we seem to be on the subject of Ollie,SP did a thread last week I think,where they had been on a country walk and there was a beautiful photo of Ollie sitting offlead,I was so pleased,but then she said that she had unclipped him just to take the photo and then clipped him back on again as soon as the photo was taken.
> 
> That did not look like a dog who was about to run away at any time,and I should know.
> 
> We all know the work that SP has put in and it seems to be working,I for one would love to see photos of Ollie running free.


Cravensmum, I was going to dedicate a thread to you. If I had a big fat award it would be winging its way to you.
After what those boys put you through, you stayed calm and very cool
To let those boys off, scenthounds, no less took great courage


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I couldn't actually cope with Oscar if I coudn't let him off lead! He pulls so much on the lead!  BUT we worked on the recall and were lucky to have a very people focussed and not very dog focussed pup. I can walk him off-lead near livestock and he will focus on me if asked and I have sausage at the ready.

I suspect Hugo is going to be a bit more of a challenge in this department, he's not quite as people soppy as Oscar is.

He lives for diving through the undergrowth at top speed, not something he could do on a long line as he would just get completely tangled. For me it is SO important for dogs to have free-running and have chance to just be dogs. I do however set aside those husky/mal type breeds who aren't supposed to go off lead at all but for them I think they should be working and it troubles me that many people have them but don't actually work them. But that's a whole other thread.

For smaller breeds of dog a play in a large garden may be enough off-lead exercise but for larger breeds I think they need a good free run regularly if not everyday.


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## retepwaker (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm a believer that a dog can reed your mind and that of other dogs and you need to keep this in mind when approaching a stranger be it man or best


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## cravensmum (Jun 28, 2010)

rona said:


> Do you know how many dogs end up on dog lost because "dogs need to be let off lead"
> 
> I know two recently


And thats why I was trying to keep out of this thread.:nono:

I'm talking about Ollie,who thanks to SP's hard work seems a well behaved dog with excellent recall.

I couldn't unclip my dogs leads on a walk and get them to stay & sit while I took a posed photo,I too will put in the hard work and hopefully I will be a able to one day,but SP can now.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Wow..i have not read all of the posts ..just picked out 10-20 or so...i actually feel like a **** owner now  

mavis will never ever be off lead...i would love to see her run..but it will never happen...

chester is allowed off lead..but only in places i know there is no risk to him... and this will continue ...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I will say that imo it's not a lot of fun having a dog you can't let off leash and can't even take to nice walking areas. Rupert often did not get the physical exercise he could have done with due to his aggression towards other dogs and his having learned to kill other animals before I got him. I even had to have him on a long line in the garden! I did a lot of training with him, played a lot of games with him and gave him what on leash exercise I could. He was happy, he had a good quality of life and I don't think I failed him despite him spending most of his outside time on a leash.

Given the choice I would have a dog off leash wherever I considered it safe but for some dogs there are very, very few areas that are safe enough.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

cravensmum said:


> And thats why I was trying to keep out of this thread.:nono:
> 
> I'm talking about Ollie,who thanks to SP's hard work seems a well behaved dog with excellent recall.
> 
> I couldn't unclip my dogs leads on a walk and get them to stay & sit while I took a posed photo,I too will put in the hard work and hopefully I will be a able to one day,but SP can now.


The difference is you pick and choose the best places and one or the other sometimes gets let off.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

Havnt read any replys but no i do not think that someone with a dog agressive dog should muzzle there dogs that are on lead under control because they are on lead because other dog owners cannot control there supper friendly off lead dogs that want too go running up too others they dont have there dogs under control. just my oppinon


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> Do you know how many dogs end up on dog lost because "dogs need to be let off lead"
> 
> I know two recently


I dont no, but i do know theres a lot of dogs that do get off leashes out of gardens and because have never been taught recall thats where they end up. My eldest dog can actually open my gate and the only time he opens the gate is when ime coming out of the door he opens it then waits for his lead, he could go at any time of the day, but his needs are fulfilled and if ever he did go out i would only have to shout him, and hes one of those dogs with an owner that believes dogs needs to be off lead.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

cravensmum said:


> And thats why I was trying to keep out of this thread.:nono:
> 
> I'm talking about Ollie,who thanks to SP's hard work seems a well behaved dog with excellent recall.
> 
> I couldn't unclip my dogs leads on a walk and get them to stay & sit while I took a posed photo,I too will put in the hard work and hopefully I will be a able to one day,but SP can now.


You would think that with Alfie too!!!
He doesn't look at sheep, cows, horses, kids and rarely bothers with other dogs.
He worked for 3 years before he hurt his leg, not perfectly but we were never kicked off 
He can skitter after pheasants an rabbits, ignores Squirrels all together *but* put a deer in front of him and sometimes, just sometimes he can't resist the chase.
Me personally, particularly how he is now, am not willing to take the risk.
It only takes once to lose your dog and only one car, railway line or sheep farmer to end your dogs life


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

well, Ollie seems to have taken over this thread.  

Thank you Rona for putting my point across so brilliantly. You are exactly right about Ollie's circumstances.  

Cravensmum - I hugely congraulate you on being able to let your hounds off lead. But although Ollie was off lead for the photo, I wouldn't risk him being off lead for the whole walk. His stay is pretty good, especially when I have treats in my hand from behind the camera. 

Haeveymolly & kat&molly - I don't get the problem with Ollie being on a flexi. You say agility isn't good enough, he needs to get new smells and new experiences. Well, he goes for a long walk (on his flexi) to fields and woods every day, and I'm constantly finding new places to take him, so I'm hardly sitting on my backside, not getting him to investigate new smells and experiences. On walks, I let him run, jump over logs, jump and run down streams, paddle in lakes and rivers, greet and play with dogs, greet other people (if they wish to), run and hop around in long grass. I really don't see the huge issue here. 

He's only on a lead because sometimes (usually once on a walk), he'll get a scent of something (probably a fox, an inseason bitch or a rabbit) and he'll follow it and no amount of calling, treats or toys would get him to lift his head off the ground. Being on a flexi means he's safe (he's not going to go running onto roads following a scent), but I also follow him and run with him so that he tracks the scent (ie using his nose to do what he would do off lead, just he's safe from running off). I'm not idely walking behind him, I'm actively walking him and encouraging him to use his nose to track and sniff things out.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> I couldn't actually cope with Oscar if I coudn't let him off lead! He pulls so much on the lead!  BUT we worked on the recall and were lucky to have a very people focussed and not very dog focussed pup. I can walk him off-lead near livestock and he will focus on me if asked and I have sausage at the ready.
> 
> I suspect Hugo is going to be a bit more of a challenge in this department, he's not quite as people soppy as Oscar is.
> 
> ...


Yes i can walk mine through livestock and i worked on this when we had a very scaru encounter with a horse one day and i was determined, NEVER again.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Pupcakes said:


> Depending on how reactive/DA/stressed your dog gets around other dogs, I think you really need to think long and hard about the pros and cons of taking your dog down the local off lead park. .


I haven't been to my local park in 16 months! Around here there are 2500acres of MOD land, most of which is open to the public. There are limited areas to park.... and that is where i encounter the majority of issues. I can avoid everyone i choose to on my walk (this has on one occasion seen me crawling through tightly packed trees!Tink thought this was a hoot:skep. It's near the parking areas all the issues occur. I regularly find my heart in my mouth watching dogs leap out of cars off lead at the side of, what are quite busy, roads. Charging over to us as we attempt to mind our own busness at the end of our walk.



Pupcakes said:


> I agree DA/re-active dogs need to get interaction, but it seems a dog training class is more ideal as you get a professional on hand and its under a controlled environment to help build up your dogs confidence slowly.


Mine isn't agressive, she's not overly nervous, she is simply scared of being charged at. As for Classes! I have classes coming out of my ears. She attends 6 classes a month of 3 different types, She goes on 2 social walks run by a behaviourist per month, along with countless " what you doing tuesday" ad hoc walks with friendly polite dogs.... is there more i can do?


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Can't believe this thread is still going  So I'm going to add my pennies worth.

Why do I have to pick a side? 

Dogs with good recall off lead - dogs without on lead - Simple 

My 2 have about 90-95% recall - I make a risk assesment and decide if it's safe to let them off.

To me it's only polite to recall an off lead dog from an on lead dog, a dog can be onlead for many different reasons and even the healthiest and most dog friendly dog can react when a rambuncious dog bounces on them whilst they are restricted on a lead.

I think it can also depend on where you live, I'm lucky I can walk miles from the road so if Lilly bolts after a bird she's not going to run into a road.(she always returns once she realised she's not going to catch it  If she didn't I would keep her on lead).
If I'm walking her in my local fields then I keep her on a flexi as the risk is to high for her to bolt into the road IMO.

I'm lucky I'm not in a Town or City, my local park isn't filled with numpty dog owners, badly trained dogs or surrounded by busy roads. If I was then my dogs would probably be on lead.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> well, Ollie seems to have taken over this thread.
> 
> Thank you Rona for putting my point across so brilliantly. You are exactly right about Ollie's circumstances.
> 
> ...


That aside, can i ask why you found it really important at one time, important enough that you were doubting yourself as been the right owner a long time agobecause recall with ollie was failing if doing what you are doing now is just as good as having a dog off lead with good re-call, ime not having a go at you but i am a bit confused.


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## cravensmum (Jun 28, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> well, Ollie seems to have taken over this thread.
> 
> Cravensmum - I hugely congraulate you on being able to let your hounds off lead. But although Ollie was off lead for the photo, I wouldn't risk him being off lead for the whole walk. His stay is pretty good, especially when I have treats in my hand from behind the camera.
> 
> He's only on a lead because sometimes (usually once on a walk), he'll get a scent of something (probably a fox, an inseason bitch or a rabbit) and he'll follow it and no amount of calling, treats or toys would get him to lift his head off the ground. Being on a flexi means he's safe (he's not going to go running onto roads following a scent), but I also follow him and run with him so that he tracks the scent (ie using his nose to do what he would do off lead, just he's safe from running off). I'm not idely walking behind him, I'm actively walking him and encouraging him to use his nose to track and sniff things out.


But I can only let my hounds off in certain places,2 places infact,the rest of the time mine are on a longline or lead,so I can see both sides of the argument,what does upset me is seeing dogs that can be offlead that aren't.

Obviously we live in different parts of the country and the places I do let mine off are free from roads or railways,the same might not be the case for you.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> That aside, can i ask why you found it really important at one time, important enough that you were doubting yourself as been the right owner a long time agobecause recall with ollie was failing if doing what you are doing now is just as good as having a dog off lead with good re-call, ime not having a go at you but i am a bit confused.


are you talking about when Ollie was young and I was looking to rehome him? 

If so, then firstly, recall wasn't the only issue. He was a difficult puppy and I did struggle, and rehoming seemed the only option for him as I felt like I was a terrible owner. And secondly, because I was getting so stressed about getting recall right because i was always told you can't have a dog on lead, people were telling me it was cruel to have him on lead, so I felt if I rehomed him to someone who could teach him, then he would be happier.

But I got past that and corrected a lot of his issues from back then. I've stopped stressing about recall, and its much better now. I'd say his recall is about 90-95% (that 5-10% being his scent-tracking on walks), but I still can't let him off. I'm a stronger person now and I stand by my beliefs of this.

Anyway, now that I've told you about how I walk him in the previous post, do you still think he's deprived?


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## alyssa_liss (May 4, 2009)

just want to add my 2p to the thread. 

Max use to be off lead most of the time. If we were playing ball etc he wasnt bothered by other dogs. however if we were walking i know he would approch other dogs if they got within a close range of us. because of this i made sure he was put on lead if i ever saw other dogs on lead. 

BUT he has been attacked at least 3 times by dogs . not to the extent of blood (my OH got bit but not Max) also we have found out he has HD.

since all this he has become abit temperental with dogs. 
he can be fine and friendly most of the time but then other times he has snapped if the dogs approach to quick or go near his bad hip . or if its a husky(husky attacked him and bit my OH)

because of this he has been walked onlead unless its in an empty field. but when he is off lead i am always on edge just incase a dog appears and he attacked it, i would never forgive myself. he hasnt actually drawn blood but has pinned down my friends beagle before now 

well this week we have got him a flexi tape lead. all i can say is it is sooo much better now we have that. 

like today for example . we have been to castleton. he was on his normal lead on the road, but as soon as we got into the farms/fields he was on his flexi mooching about sniffing waiting for us to catch up. he was herding sheep as we walked through the field (hes a border collie). being a sniffer dog following smells . eating sheep poo . going in the river and best of all i wasnt on edge looking for dogs all the time.
When we saw a dog i put his normal lead on (i still cant trust the flexi for 100% strength just incase) a choc lab came upto him and was ignoring his owner . max was extremly good with him  and the owner came and collected his dog. 

took him of his normal and back on his flexi and off we went again. 

you should have seen the state of us though . covered in mud , soaking wet. gail force sidewards wind and rain lol. 

we actually ended up meeting the 2 choc labs again about 1hr later they both came up to us and you could see max was good but wasnt impressed with 2 of them approaching him at once. i was trying to distact the other dogs , to avoid a situation. he was very good though and even started play bowing and wanting to follow them :biggrin::thumbup1:.

also the flexi was good because it was soooo slippy in the mud that he most defonatly would have pulled one of us over on the normal lead.

he will still get time offlead when appropriate , we go offroading 4x4 alot so we are often in the middle of nowhere. but a flexi lead is a great tool in the right situations. today our walk was about 4 miles (cant go too far because of his hip) but because he was on his flexi he got more excersise than if it was a normal onlead walk.

i would never use it on the road though and i wouldnt like to use one on a big dog really. max is 18kg and like i say i wouldnt trust it not to snap the lock if he really wanted to. its a 25kg lead though btw.


We do try and avoid dogs if possible but he does need to socialise but because people let dogs wander upto us it does annoy me incase anything was to happen.



EDIT THAT WAS mORE LIKE 50P NOT 2P LOL


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

ahhh...it would be brill. to have the great dog with the well trained owner...but, it just isn't going to happen..


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> are you talking about when Ollie was young and I was looking to rehome him?
> 
> If so, then firstly, recall wasn't the only issue. He was a difficult puppy and I did struggle, and rehoming seemed the only option for him as I felt like I was a terrible owner. And secondly, because I was getting so stressed about getting recall right because i was always told you can't have a dog on lead, people were telling me it was cruel to have him on lead, so I felt if I rehomed him to someone who could teach him, then he would be happier.
> 
> ...


Ime sorry but yes i do.
I do not have the perfect dogs, well molly is but icant take credit for that altogether, but when i see them out running free or chasing the ball with as many as 7 or 8 dogs i really thank myself very lucky to have them and i feel they are also really lucky as well and to me this is the life all dogs should have, unless aggressive or a breed that is truely impossible to train to be off lead.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Ime sorry but yes i do.
> I do not have the perfect dogs, well molly is but icant take credit for that altogether, but when i see them out running free or chasing the ball with as many as 7 or 8 dogs i really thank myself very lucky to have them and i feel they are also really lucky as well and to me this is the life all dogs should have, unless aggressive or a breed that is truely impossible to train to be off lead.


Oh the perfect world.
How we all wish we lived there


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Ime sorry but yes i do.
> I do not have the perfect dogs, well molly is but icant take credit for that altogether, but when i see them out running free or chasing the ball with as many as 7 or 8 dogs i really thank myself very lucky to have them and i feel they are also really lucky as well and to me this is the life all dogs should have, unless aggressive or a breed that is truely impossible to train to be off lead.


well, its something we are never going to agree on. but I feel very lucky to have Ollie and I look in Ollie's eyes and I think (and hope ) that he feels the same back.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> A friendly dog doesnt hurt anyone by being friendly.


There is 'friendly' and 'friendly'.

I see far more rude friendly dogs than I do polite ones and the owners don't know the difference. They seem to think that because their dog isn't being aggressive they are being friendly. NOT SO. They may not be being aggressive but they can be extremely rude. 

If an offlead dog runs up to an onlead dog and is attacked it is the fault of the off lead owner. End of story. Regardless of personal opinion, legally, an onlead dog is considered under control, an off lead dog is not.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> Oh the perfect world.
> How we all wish we lived there


Its as perfect as i think i would ever get and i truely believe without any exceptional circumstances of its done from a very early age it can be as perfect as any pet owner could hope/wish to get, ime no trainer, you should see mine pull on the lead my OH says they look a disgrace ive failed there big time but off lead was always a biggy with me having spaniels and i wanted them to be as perfect as i possible could.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Its as perfect as i think i would ever get and i truely believe without any exceptional circumstances of its done from a very early age it can be as perfect as any pet owner could hope/wish to get, ime no trainer, you should see mine pull on the lead my OH says they look a disgrace ive failed there big time but off lead was always a biggy with me having spaniels and i wanted them to be as perfect as i possible could.


Well you see, mine is almost perfect on his short lead,  did well there I did, just failed somewhere on recall


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

i havent read the whole thread yet so not sure where its at!

But i have 3 on lead dogs, and 1 offlead

My siberians are runners, no amount of recall training will overcome their preydrive and their desire to run, its not that we havent tried to train them at all, we have emergency recall on all of them in case they were to get out or they were to slip their collar etc, but i would not rely on it on a day to day basis. Lack of reliable recall is a breed trait, every husky organisation in the world advises that they are leashed unless in a safe & secure area, and by that they mean a dog park or tennis court with proper 6ft + fences. 

They do get to go to the dog park a couple of times a month to run about and play with friends, but the rest of the time they are on lead. They are not missing out, i work them in harness which IMO is better and more stimulating/rewarding than just running around a field.

My staff x does go offlead, but I have trained him to recall to a whistle, which has gone really well, so far his recall rate to the whistle is 100%. Yes I would still let him off if it wasn't, but only because he doesnt go mad for other dogs, and stays fairly close so I can grab and leash him before we get to the other dog.

As for other dogs running up to my onlead ones, I dont mind too much with the girls, they are fine with all dogs and would just play! But Grey can be a little reactive with some dogs, for that reason I dont really walk him anywhere that i expect to find a lot of offlead dogs, or i go to those areas after dark. On the streets I will put myself between him and the dog and guage his reaction as we get closer and if he seems comfortable I will ask the other owner if they can meet.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> Well you see, mine is almost perfect on his short lead,  did well there I did, just failed somewhere on recall


Harveys 11 now, so i think if he was going to get there he would have done by now the only thing now at his age he walks lovely on his way home.................no credit to me there just old age, ime at the moment teaching him recall to the whistle and i was amazed how many hand signals we use without thinking so he looks at the signals, but when hes not looking at me he needs the whistle but then he cant aways hear that ime sure its just about gone totaly. i think it was you a while ago that suggested clapping ime not sure, well that worked really well till his hearing has just about gone altogether now.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

When mine is off leash he just runs in a circle and comes back to heel. He gets more exercise on a flexi lead. I also prefer it as he has been attacked by an off leash dog and nipped a few times and I've been able to 'reel' him in quickly. I dread to think what would have happened if he was off lead. I don't mind off leash dogs near mine, but I wish people wouldn't let ones that aren't friendly near him.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> In the research i did exercise wise a show springer and a working springer has the same needs, the only difference is a working springer could not be shown but a show springer can be trained for field trials, they actually have the same needs. If a show cocker can do agility then it has the stamina and energy of a working, the difference is free running gives a dog whatever the breed something very different to a garden jumping obs or been kept on a leash. A dog with good to reasonable recall can be achieved with lots of get up and go from the owner along with patience and understanding of the breed with the exception of some breeds but certainly with a spaniel.


I don't know where you did your research, but I'm not sure I would agree with their needs being the same. Very similar in the same way most dogs' needs are, but there is a difference between the show and working. Firstly, I doubt a show spaniel would ever get anywhere near good enough to trial   (but should run to the hills after saying that ). After a certain amount, the amount of exercise a dog needs is rather dependant on their fitness. Typically, what a working bred dog needs far more than their show counterparts is mental stimulation - a 'job' to do. If not given these, they will simply find something to do which may or may not be what the owner wants. They are mentally much more alert and this is probably the biggest different (apart from physical appearance).


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I haven't read the whole thread, but notice how many say a dog should be allowed offlead exercise. Exercise is important but whether it is onlead or offlead, is not important. That is down to individual dogs, situations and circumstances.


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

Rocco...Surely a dog needs to be able to run? It's what they're meant to do. ALL dogs are meant to run, even those with squished up faces.

While some people do physical sports with dogs, I haven't seen it mentioned much in this thread. By "Physical sports", I mean cycling, or sledding...Agility clubs are great, but agility in the garden is a bit like a game of fetch in the garden. The sniffing and experiencing of new sounds, sights and smells are also important to a dog. 

I stopped posting here, because I'm not sure if the people who can't let their dogs off lead actually give them physical exercise, or if they just walk them, and I don't want to offend anyone.

I'm fine with keeping dogs on lead, assuming they actually get to run around, outside of the gardens, seeing things, hearing things and smelling things.

Kay is on lead most of the time. I take her up the field three times a day with my other dogs to run. She gets the exercise she needs from these trips. However, I also take her for a small cycle around the block, maybe twice a week. When she's fully grown, we'll be going once a day.

If I'm unable to let her off lead ever again, then we'll be going for a long bike ride a few times a day, because I strongly believe dogs need that type of physical exercise. Obviously, with cycling or rollerblading, you have to be careful being the constant pounding your dog will be doing on the concrete can cause problems. Use your common sense and cycling with your dog is perfectly fine. :thumbup1:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Doberma'am said:


> Rocco...Surely a dog needs to be able to run? It's what they're meant to do. ALL dogs are meant to run, even those with squished up faces.
> 
> While some people do physical sports with dogs, I haven't seen it mentioned much in this thread. By "Physical sports", I mean cycling, or sledding...Agility clubs are great, but agility in the garden is a bit like a game of fetch in the garden. The sniffing and experiencing of new sounds, sights and smells are also important to a dog.
> 
> ...


My dog hasn't really run since he was 7 years old and he injured his leg, this was 3 years ago.
He is one of the fittest dogs of his age that my vet and hydro lady see.
Time spent walking as far as he is able coupled with the occasional hydro session has seen him keep a good level of fitness.
Yes his muscles aren't huge and bulging, but even with all his troubles he can still swim farther than many dogs half his age. 
So on lead can work


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

you should never cycle on the pavement, very bad for both pads and joints!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Doberma'am said:


> Rocco...Surely a dog needs to be able to run? It's what they're meant to do. ALL dogs are meant to run, even those with squished up faces.
> 
> While some people do physical sports with dogs, I haven't seen it mentioned much in this thread. By "Physical sports", I mean cycling, or sledding...Agility clubs are great, but agility in the garden is a bit like a game of fetch in the garden. The sniffing and experiencing of new sounds, sights and smells are also important to a dog.
> 
> ...


the only way mavis would run is back home...

chance is she would be knocked over by a car..attacked by a dog..etc....i am not willing to take the risk....

saying that she does get exercise..up in the fells climbing hills....

its really bugging me...granted i have had numerous bottles of wine..it is new years day....but jesus because i dont let my dog off lead does not mean i am a bad owner...because thats how i am being made feel...just to add that this last paragraph is not directly aimed at you Doberma'am


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

rona said:


> My dog hasn't really run since he was 7 years old and he injured his leg, this was 3 years ago.
> He is one of the fittest dogs of his age that my vet and hydro lady see.
> Time spent walking as far as he is able coupled with the occasional hydro session has seen him keep a good level of fitness.
> Yes his muscles aren't huge and bulging, but even with all his troubles he can still swim farther than many dogs half his age.
> So on lead can work


But swimming is better for dogs than running. If I could afford it annually, my dogs would go to a dog pool somewhere.

sid&kira...Not gonna go there.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

When in a suitable area my dogs are off lead. But when we encounter other dogs, other than friends, regardless of the other dog being on lead or not, mine are recalled and put on a lead, for their safety and IMO for the sake of good manners.

On the point about jumping up, my dogs are not allowed to jump up on me or any one else, I appreciate the same in return regardless of the dogs size.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Doberma'am said:


> But swimming is better for dogs than running. If I could afford it annually, my dogs would go to a dog pool somewhere.
> 
> sid&kira...Not gonna go there.


I'm sure that many on lead dogs are swum, maybe in ponds and rivers but still exercise.
I can't afford much so it's not just that that keeps him going. A lot of a dogs life is stimulation though don't you think? It's not always about who goes how far and how fast with their dog.
Someone could go 6 miles a day every day and off lead, but if it's the same place day in day out, the dog would probably get less stimulation and in some cases less exercise than a dog that did two 1 mile walks that were varied

Need to add, we do the 6 miles and it's varied!!!


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

I don't even think my dogs get any mental stimulation. I don't play hide and seek games, I don't do mind games, I don't take them to strange places regularly. Dunno what kind of owner that makes me, but as far as I'm concerned, if your dogs are happy, your mistakes weren't that bad! :cornut:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Doberma'am said:


> I don't even think my dogs get any mental stimulation. I don't play hide and seek games, I don't do mind games, I don't take them to strange places regularly. Dunno what kind of owner that makes me, but as far as I'm concerned, if your dogs are happy, your mistakes weren't that bad! :cornut:


Stimulation doesn't necessarily have to be a forced thing.


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## cravensmum (Jun 28, 2010)

I'm sure mine prefer an hour offlead than the 2/3 hours they get on a longline.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

cravensmum said:


> I'm sure mine prefer an hour offlead than the 2/3 hours they get on a longline.


So would mine but it's not essential. Preferable yes


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

On that (good) note, I'm going to withdraw from this conversation. It's only half eleven, and I'm kinda tired already.  :thumbup1:


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

if your dogs are happy...to me that makes you a good owner xx perhaps not the perfect owner....but christ...its a start 

i am lucky to get mavis out the front door sometimes  when she is up in the fells on lead she feels safe...let that lead go and she would turn round and try and get home

think i should go to bed ....lol..

anyway i wish i had a brilliant dog...with no issues..hopefully with chester i may...but mavis nah..its hard enough trying to get her out the front door for a walk..... never mind let her off lead....:lol: but she is happy when in our home and to me thats what counts


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I do think it's a shame that some dogs aren't allowed to go up to other dogs at all, in a kind of relaxed here we are just passing each other on the fell way, because of the percieved danger of the strange dog being aggressive. Dogs need contact with their own species I think. I also think that the feelings and perception of the owner can often drive a dog's reaction.

My smooth collie (RIP) would, occasionally, be dog aggressive - well, dog-reactive as she didn't draw blood, just fur occasionally. It was fear based aggression as most of these things are and she was actually much better off-lead when she could run and control the situation herself then on-lead when she felt trapped. The thing that strikes me now is that she never, or very very rarely, "pinned" another dog when she was with me. But most "attacks" happened with Mum, who was afraid of other dogs (thus feeding Molli's fear) and Dad, who didn't let her off lead because he couldn't cope with her 95% recall. Whereas I was a teenager who loved other dogs and didn't consider consequences of the 5% non-recalls and we had some wonderful walks with actually very few scrapes (she did run up a fire escape at the nursing home in the park once though, after a cat, the cat came off the roof and she followed - 10ft drop completely un-hurt, madness).

She didn't approach on-lead dogs though and was only once DA when off-lead but that was an on-lead JRT attched to a small child (a toddler in fact) who had no control over the dog who was jumping all over Molli (Mother was following some 200m behind todler and dog!). For whatever reason she didn't do her usual run away on that occasion she pinned the JRT where it was - result hysterical mother of small child and a visit from the police.

In some ways we were lucky that the scrapes we did get into weren't too bad. In other ways we were sensible - she was always on lead near roads and livestock. And as she got older and more crotchety we avoided the local park and busiest dog walks with her, as anyone sensible with a reactive DA dog must surely do?

I don't know what the moral of the story is. I think something along the lines of being a bit braver with some dogs is actually worth it. For all the bad times there were 100 plus happy moments watching her run and be a dog and I wouldn't change it, I wouldn't want to have avoided the scary moments in exchange for missing out on watching her loving running - she used to do these huge sweeping circular runs through the trees, she could have done that on any kind of lead.

Some dogs probably don't need it, some breeds are probably more sedate and wouldn't run unless prevoked. Some dogs are actually aggressive aggressive and have to be contained, some dogs will possibly never have a solid enough recall due to breed characteristics or history. But some dogs will just run for the joy of it and through training and management it is worth endevouring to ensure that can happen.

I don't know. I do think anyone who uses a pet forum is more than likely doing their very best for the well being of their dogs so I wouldn't judge anyone on here as a bad owner. But sometimes people are afraid to change the way they do things because it is an admission that things haven't been done perfectly in the past.

I do know that I will be doing my utmost to ensure Hugo can go offlead as reliably as Oscar can, even though I'm 90% sure that it will be a lot more difficult with him and we'll have to do some serious livestock work cos of the collie in him.

Bah! What a ramble.

PS I will always recall and do a sit stay for an onlead dog to pass us un-harrased, if people chose to keep there dog on a lead then I assume they don't want it interacting with mydog. I may not agree with that choice as in I might not have made that choice myself (depending on the reason) but I will always respect it.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

Have been reading with interest, thought I'd reply after much debating with myself.

Excuse any typos I'm on my phone and it is late.

3 out of my 4 dogs are well socialised, excellent of lead, have brilliant recall. 

Sammy, my german shepard, however is another matter.

He will bark, growl at other dogs. 1eve got him to calm down on his barking and that has taken a very long time. we allow him offlead on my friends bit of land when we can, every other time he's on lead, for his sake, and more importantly for others. 

I would hate for him to be offlead and attack another dog which quite honestly I believe he would. 

But I always thought it was deemed bad manners to let an offlead dog approach an on lead dog unless the onleads dog owner has said it was ok.

I would avoid areas where we couldn't meet offlead dogs but, come to where I live, and you will soon realise its practically impossible unless you just kept to walking the streets. So for someone to say well dogs that can't be offlead shouldn't go where offleads dogs are is quite laughable, my back garden backs onto a field if I leave my gate open I get dogs in my garden. You might as well tell me its best to have a dog cause of that theory, he should never be out, but I'd find insulting. 

My dogs are not allowed to approach on lead dogs unless I have the owners say so, I do not expect any dog little or large to jump up at me, mine don't do so I pretty much expect the same. 

Mine have several walks throughout the day, visit friends and families homes, are quite frankly spoilt by them and have endless fuss, I wish sammy could be like the other 3 but he's not, he's a more hard work and our walks aren't always enjoyable if he decides he's having a bad day, but you know what he's happy, healthy and that is all that matters to me, as are the other 3.


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## Zoej82 (Apr 19, 2011)

When we first got Ripley last year it took us a long time to decide to let her off the lead..being a rescue we needed to get to know what she was like with other dogs etc. she is very very energetic and her desire to be off
Lead when out walking anywhere that isn't a road is HUGE... She actually sits as if to say I'm being good I'd like to be Offlead now. She just loves to run and there is not a chance that a walk on lead would compare ... If she needs to be on lead for any amount of time she will regularly sit and look at you to try and get let off..... Her recall is pretty good. I'd say about 90% 

She in true staffy fashion can get very bulldozer like and I am very aware not to let her go bolting over to people with dogs she very much wants to play. But is too full on ... Most of the time we Will be able to call her and leash her in time. But there are the occasions where we've not spotted people in time. I Always instantly make an effort to get her back to me. 

I know it's annoying to have a dog come bolting over I don't like it. I do get annoyed when I have purposely put Ripley on the lead to stop her bolting over to their dog and them they just let their dog come
Trotting over. Rips doesn't get really agressive when on lead
But she will do a warning snap in the air if they pester. And I actually feel its her right to be able to tell the other dog to back off if they are making themselves a real nuisance i'm not Going to tell her off for this as all it will do is make her less
Likely to warn and more likely to actually
Attack. Just as is if she goes up to another dog which is
Onlead and is bitten that would be very much my fault and hers. And I would take all responsibility for it.

What makes me angry is people who are blasé about there dogs pestering other dogs. I have had two occasions that have left me in absolute dismay.

The first one was when we had not long had Ripley and she was always on lead. This womans dog was making a real pest of itself to Ripley. And it was clear from her body language she didn't like it. The woman was quite a distance from us. 

A. We hadn't had Ripley long and was still learning her responses
B. we didn't know this dog

The woman's little boy eventually got close to us and was trying to get their dog.
When the woman got close we asked her to call him away explaining rips was a rescue and we hadn't had her long.

Her response was oh it's ok he friendly !!!

That's all well as good but I the mean time we
Could clearly see Ripley was not happy taol between her legs ears back and was getting fed up of several minutes of this dog sniffing round her whilst she was confined by the lead. She eventually gave
Him a warning snap. To which the lady responded if you have a vicious dog you should not take her to a public place!!!!

Not ONCE did she call her dog ... The mind boggles


The second and scariest was two huuuge dogs . I'm not sure what they were were walking towards us in the distance as we turned a corner . that generally would not be a problem to me but they came
Charging towards us barking which generally I take as an uh oh

They got to us we had managed to put our dogs on the lead ( I was with my mother in law and her border collie boy) weCalled to the lady who was again a fair way away to call them back by this time one of these dogs had started growling ..... Called Out again to the owner to call them away and said they are growling ... The woman called out its ok they're not growling at the dogs they are growling at you !!!!! Shocking absolutely shocking ... Still at no point did she call them or lead them.

Sorry for the long tome


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## FluffyCannibal (Jan 2, 2012)

I think dogs should be kept on leads when in public. Once, I was walking my dad's dog Jack (with a lead on) down a narrow footpath, when a man walking a dog with no lead came the other way. The other dog sniffed around Jack, who growled at it to back off, which it did, but only for a few seconds. When it came back for more, Jack bit it. That dog shouldn't have been injured, and wouldn't have been if it had been on a lead.

Also, around a year ago my dad accidentally ran over a dog that was being walked with no lead on (the dog was fine). Another example of a dog becoming injured unnecessarily because it doesn't have a lead.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

FluffyCannibal said:


> I think dogs should be kept on leads when in public. Once, I was walking my dad's dog Jack (with a lead on) down a narrow footpath, when a man walking a dog with no lead came the other way. The other dog sniffed around Jack, who growled at it to back off, which it did, but only for a few seconds. When it came back for more, Jack bit it. That dog shouldn't have been injured, and wouldn't have been if it had been on a lead.
> 
> Also, around a year ago my dad accidentally ran over a dog that was being walked with no lead on (the dog was fine). Another example of a dog becoming injured unnecessarily because it doesn't have a lead.


Or because it wasn't trained


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I don't know where you did your research, but I'm not sure I would agree with their needs being the same. Very similar in the same way most dogs' needs are, but there is a difference between the show and working. Firstly, I doubt a show spaniel would ever get anywhere near good enough to trial   (but should run to the hills after saying that ). After a certain amount, the amount of exercise a dog needs is rather dependant on their fitness. Typically, what a working bred dog needs far more than their show counterparts is mental stimulation - a 'job' to do. If not given these, they will simply find something to do which may or may not be what the owner wants. They are mentally much more alert and this is probably the biggest different (apart from physical appearance).


A show cocker with the appropriate training can work, their needs to flush ect like a working bred cocker is the same, so a show bred cockers needs has to be met too just as a working. The difference is a working bred cocker would/could choose a comfy bed when the weathers cold and wet whereas the working much like the springer will be out here pounding the fields


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> My smooth collie (RIP) would, occasionally, be dog aggressive - well, dog-reactive as she didn't draw blood, just fur occasionally. It was fear based aggression as most of these things are and she was actually much better off-lead when she could run and control the situation herself then on-lead when she felt trapped. The thing that strikes me now is that she never, or very very rarely, "pinned" another dog when she was with me. But most "attacks" happened with Mum, who was afraid of other dogs (thus feeding Molli's fear) and Dad, who didn't let her off lead because he couldn't cope with her 95% recall. Whereas I was a teenager who loved other dogs and didn't consider consequences of the 5% non-recalls and we had some wonderful walks with actually very few scrapes (she did run up a fire escape at the nursing home in the park once though, after a cat, the cat came off the roof and she followed - 10ft drop completely un-hurt, madness).
> 
> She didn't approach on-lead dogs though and was only once DA when off-lead but that was an on-lead JRT attched to a small child (a toddler in fact) who had no control over the dog who was jumping all over Molli (Mother was following some 200m behind todler and dog!). For whatever reason she didn't do her usual run away on that occasion she pinned the JRT where it was - result hysterical mother of small child and a visit from the police.
> 
> In some ways we were lucky that the scrapes we did get into weren't too bad. In other ways we were sensible - she was always on lead near roads and livestock. And as she got older and more crotchety we avoided the local park and busiest dog walks with her, as anyone sensible with a reactive DA dog must surely do?


im sorry but letting a dog aggresive dog offlead because you wanted him to have an offlead walk is to me irresponsible, ok for your dog who can control the situation but what about the others, even if he didn't draw blood, attacking another dog is not acceptable and the poor ones he did would prob have problems of their own after that!

and the poor jrt he really went after, i mean you say it so casually but if your dog was knowingly attacking dogs then he should not have been left to his own devices.

this example is why some of us like a dog to be on a lead, so dogs like this dont casually attack them!


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Simple - any aggression and the dog should never be walked off-lead in my opinion. And if you think socialisation could help your own dog, then muzzle them so the other people's dogs aren't at risk of being bitten. But keep them on a lead. Its ridiculous to put other people's pets at risk of being traumatised or injured just because your dog has problems!

I think far too many people ignore the signs that state a dog should be on a lead - so if there are signs then there should be no off-lead play. OR, if you insists on ignoring the rules your dog should recall 100% of the time - no exceptions. 

If it's an off-lead area (the aggression rule stated earlier still applies in my opinion) then dogs should be allowed to be off-lead and play. BUT, off-lead dog owners should still be considerate to those who walk their dogs on a lead in these areas (perhaps they live nearby and its the only green area they can walk to?) - on the flip side, owners who walk in these areas with a dog on a lead shouldn't get too annoyed by off-lead dogs running by...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> im sorry but letting a dog aggresive dog offlead because you wanted him to have an offlead walk is to me irresponsible, ok for your dog who can control the situation but what about the others, even if he didn't draw blood, attacking another dog is not acceptable and the poor ones he did would prob have problems of their own after that!
> 
> and the poor jrt he really went after, i mean you say it so casually but if your dog was knowingly attacking dogs then he should not have been left to his own devices.
> 
> this example is why some of us like a dog to be on a lead, so dogs like this dont casually attack them!


Just because a dog is aggressive on leash doesn't mean it's aggressive off leash. And if a reactive dog doesn't approach other dogs, has a good recall and is generally under control then why shouldn't it be off leash? From what Werehorse said her dog wasn't going off attacking other dogs and was generally not aggressive off leash anyway, she ran away from situations she didn't like.

As for the JRT, my collie would have done the same thing had his more polite warnings to stop jumping on him been ignored. He wouldn't have hurt it but he would have looked and sounded as though he was killing it.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Helbo said:


> Simple - any aggression and the dog should never be walked off-lead in my opinion..


But again, what counts as aggression? There are people who believe a dog who so much as growls should be put to sleep! And what about dogs who are aggressive while leashed but perfectly fine while off leash? What if a dog is friendly with most dogs but has one dog it really, really doesn't like and would fight with?

I really don't think it's as black and white as if a dog shows any aggression it should never be off leash.


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## choclabwoody (Dec 23, 2011)

Hi Folks
I would like mine (Labrador) off the lead most of the times as he has more energy than me. I mean off the lead when possible in a field, woods or any open space for him to run around freely.

Whilst staying in Wales, I go on a regular route that is 4Km long or even further and most of it is safe for the dog to be off the lead. Whilst I walk 4Km, Woody will do much more than this by running back and forwards.

This is OK here in Wales but when I go back home shortly, he'll have to be on the lead more as there will be more people and other animals/pets about where I live. He does have a problem when greeting people as he always jumps up to get attention and normally pulls me with him.

He's my first dog so I'm learning as well but whilst I'm out and he is off the lead and someone approaches with or without a dog I normally try (he doesn't always come back due to him being excited meeting other people or dogs) and get him back to me so that I can put the lead back on. Normally shouting biscuit gets his attention and he comes running back.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> But again, what counts as aggression? There are people who believe a dog who so much as growls should be put to sleep! And what about dogs who are aggressive while leashed but perfectly fine while off leash? What if a dog is friendly with most dogs but has one dog it really, really doesn't like and would fight with?
> 
> I really don't think it's as black and white as if a dog shows any aggression it should never be off leash.


Ok - my definition of aggression - anything a standard dog owner wouldn't want happening to their dog, and a I mean a standard owner with a standard dog (i.e., no socialisation issues) - no wusses 

In my opinion this is a dog biting to pull fur, draw blood, pinning down (and theres definitely a difference between play wrestling and aggressive pinning)...etc.

It is black and white for me. If your dog has ever traumatised or hurt another dog then it should never be out of your control, and should be walked on a lead.

Even when Charlie was a puppy and still learning to play and socialise, he never hurt or upset another dog when let off-lead to play. I still walk him on lead most of the time for safety, but he is let off to play. If he had hurt another dog - depending on how it happened - I'd have to restrict his activities accordingly.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Just because a dog is aggressive on leash doesn't mean it's aggressive off leash. And if a reactive dog doesn't approach other dogs, has a good recall and is generally under control then why shouldn't it be off leash? From what Werehorse said her dog wasn't going off attacking other dogs and was generally not aggressive off leash anyway, she ran away from situations she didn't like.
> 
> As for the JRT, my collie would have done the same thing had his more polite warnings to stop jumping on him been ignored. He wouldn't have hurt it but he would have looked and sounded as though he was killing it.


she said the dog pinned others down and didnt draw much blood but fur, that to me is attacking others.

there are dogs let off lead who would be scared by this and traumatised, if a dog acts like this often it should not be unrestrained as it is given free run to do it to as many dogs as it likes. also if you can class anything your dog does as an attack then it is aggresive and should be on a lead reguradless of if you want him on one or not.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Helbo said:


> It is black and white for me. If your dog has ever traumatised or hurt another dog then it should never be out of your control, and should be walked on a lead.


Well neither Shadow or Wolf were aggressive. Wolf once bit a dog in the face when it ran up behind him and bit him on the rump. Shadow and his puppyhood playmate seriously fell out at around 18 months, fought and there was blood drawn on both sides. I don't feel either dog needed to be kept leashed for the rest of their lives.

Shadow would "attack" a rude dog that was pestering him and didn't respond to his growls, bared teeth, snaps etc but never drew blood, pulled out fur or anything like that. It was all noise, big toothy displays and slobber. The owner of the rude dog generally didn't see it that way however.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Sarah1983 said what I needed to say. And before you start having a pop I was a teenager and it was all at least 10 years ago. Molli was never aggressive off lead or unprovoked for that matter, she was more hyper-reactive to rude dogs than out and out aggressive.

Never mind the "poor JRT" it was out of control, in her face and she didn't injure it, just pinned it with a lot of noise and teeth. I mentioned it simply because it was the ONLY time she pinned a dog while OFF-LEAD. She was a better, calmer dog OFF-LEAD. She wasn't perfect (and this is the key to my point, if I have one) but being off-lead kept her stress levels down and made her a less reactive dog.

But if we had been frightened to let her off because she sometimes chased a squirrel out of sight, (or a cat off a rooftop!) or because she wasn't 100% trustworthy with other dogs on lead she would have been a more difficult dog to manage and had less quality of life.

Of course some dogs are actually dangerous to let off lead, of course some dogs are actually aggressive or have zero recall, of course they should not be let off where they could range onto a road within their usual ranging distance. But I do think MOST dogs would benefit from time off lead.

I just think you can be too paranoid. Obviously others think being paranoid is responsible dog ownership.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> she said the dog pinned others down and didnt draw much blood but fur, that to me is attacking others.
> 
> there are dogs let off lead who would be scared by this and traumatised, if a dog acts like this often it should not be unrestrained as it is given free run to do it to as many dogs as it likes. also if you can class anything your dog does as an attack then it is aggresive and should be on a lead reguradless of if you want him on one or not.


So if my dog was off leash, minding his own business and another dog came over, kept pestering him and jumping on him despite repeatedly being told (politely) to pack it in and my dog eventually roared at it and gave an inhibited bite (which usually ended with the offending dog on its back but not physically forced there or pinned there) then it's my dog who should be kept leashed? I disagree.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I have to say I find it quite amusing that someone who was arguing so strongly that dogs shouldn't be contained in a crate when all they are really going to get up to is sleep anyway, is now here vermently arguing that dogs should all be contained when all they will be wanting to do is run!

Also, just to be clear to those who clearly don't read long posts. Molli NEVER went up to an on-lead dog and attacked it while she was off-lead. She would fight back if she was on-lead being bounced in the face by and out of control off-lead or on-lead dog. Letting her off-lead made the situation better not worse.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> He Just Wants To Say Hi!
> http://www.nesr.info/images-english-shepherd/He-just-wants-to-say-hi.pdf
> 
> And this one I can certainly relate to!
> My Dog is Friendly! A Public Service Announcement


I'm sorry to drag a quote from way back when but i have to say the first link in your post is a must read for everyone who's "friendly" dog receives less than a warm welcome. So much so i think i might print out a few copies to keep in my dog walking bag and distribute them to the owners of obnoxious, rude 'friendly' dogs we have the misfortune to encounter!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> I have to say I find it quite amusing that someone who was arguing so strongly that dogs shouldn't be contained in a crate when all they are really going to get up to is sleep anyway, is now here vermently arguing that dogs should all be contained when all they will be wanting to do is run!


ha that is so funny as i was just going to say the same thing!

many who say the dogs have to always be off lead to have quality for life leaving the dogs in crates and cages for up to 8 hours a day wile at work! so freedom walking but cages in doors! also it is the natural thing to do in walking offlead but not so natural a steel cage!

alfie is free to run in a secure enclosure with dogs he know so he is not attacked by out of control dogs or lost!


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Well neither Shadow or Wolf were aggressive. Wolf once bit a dog in the face when it ran up behind him and bit him on the rump. Shadow and his puppyhood playmate seriously fell out at around 18 months, fought and there was blood drawn on both sides. I don't feel either dog needed to be kept leashed for the rest of their lives.


If you read my whole post - I did say 'depending on how it happened' when I was saying whether or not to restrict a dogs activities. Honestly, theres no need to be so pedantic, we all know what I mean when I say if your dog has hurt or traumatised another dog...no matter what extraneous circumstances, you can usually decide whether other dogs need to be protected from your own.

In both of your stories I'd say the dog was protecting himself. But if your dog started the fight at 18 months old then thats a different matter...


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

i can understand though that a dog caged all day will prob need alot more stimulation on a walk then one who has a free day full of things to do.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> alfie is free to run in a secure enclosure with dogs he know so he is not attacked by out of control dogs or lost!


Just wondering since you seem to be saying you keep your dog leashed so he can't be attacked. Do you think a leash will stop your dog being attacked by an out of control dog? Or even help at all if the dog is serious about hurting your dog?

My Rupert was on leash when another dog tried to kill him. Had he been a smaller dog it would very likely have succeeded.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

But again you haven't actually grasped the full situation...

A crate is always something that my dogs will graduate from when they have proved themselves trustworthy. From what you are saying Alfie will never graduate from your longline even if he has proved himself trustworthy.

Oscar had 15 months of his life where we used a crate and now he has free run of the house while we are out and sleeps on the bed at night.

Collies need free running as much as possible, they are just one of those breeds in my opinion and experience. I think it's a shame that yours doesn't get it because of your paranoia. Not just for a relative short period of time, but for his whole life. Nice.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Jeez.... there is no right or wrong way to own a dog. Just opinions. If someone wishes to keep their dog on a lead for its entire life who are you to judge them? It is their decision, so long as the dog is well exercised and looked after then who cares what everyone else is doing?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Helbo said:


> In both of your stories I'd say the dog was protecting himself. But if your dog started the fight at 18 months old then thats a different matter...


We don't know who started it, just that one moment they were fine and the next they weren't. Both were fine with other dogs but hated each other for the rest of their lives. Neither was kept leashed unless we had to pass each other and even if we had known who and what had caused the fight I don't feel either should have been stuck on leash for life because of it.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

I don't want to get into any arguments about little details, so I'm going to leave after I've said...

Owners need to be realistic about whether their dogs need to be under their control at all times or not. Dogs should not be offlead in an on lead area. In an offlead area you shouldn't put others at risk. 

How many stories do we see on here of people walking their dog on a lead and an offload dog just runs up and starts to bite them?! I myself have had to protect Charlie from such events. And these dogs clearly should be kept on a lead, and usually muzzled too, but their owners aren't realistic about their own dogs and this is irresponsible of them. 

:thumbup1: See ya xx


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

with a leash i can pull him away at least, we had an experience when one dog was attacked and run away petrified, thankfully he was found near his home but he could have been run over or stolen. at least with a lead he is always with us

alfie does have free running on the longline lead, you can walk/run with him on it and he gets tonnes of fun and pleasure and he runs flat out and pretends to heard too.

he loves the running but it is not the same amount required for a border collie, just some is needed not as much as possible.

i trust my dog it is others i do not.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Helbo said:


> I don't want to get into any arguments about little details, so I'm going to leave after I've said...
> 
> Owners need to be realistic about whether their dogs need to be under their control at all times or not.
> 
> :thumbup1: See ya xx


I think all dogs should be under control at all times, but that doesn't necessarily mean on lead and being on lead doesn't necessarily mean they are under control


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

hawksport said:


> I think all dogs should be under control at all times, but that doesn't necessarily mean on lead and being on lead doesn't necessarily mean they are under control


Couldn't resist - but this really is the last time 

Just want to say I agree. Dogs should be under control at all times, and control can be achieved several ways.

But, being on a short standard lead means you can restrain your dog so they cannot get near another dog and hurt them if thats what you need to do to stop others from being at risk.

I want to clear up I'm not against dogs being off-lead in off-lead areas when they are under control and well-behaved. But owners do need to be more realistic about whether their dog should be walked off-lead or not.

Right - I'm really off - not reading any more of this thread


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> with a leash i can pull him away at least, we had an experience when one dog was attacked and run away petrified, thankfully he was found near his home but he could have been run over or stolen. at least with a lead he is always with us
> 
> alfie does have free running on the longline lead, you can walk/run with him on it and he gets tonnes of fun and pleasure and he runs flat out and pretends to heard too.
> 
> ...


Dogs cant run flat out on a lead. You also said he was as fast as a Greyhound, you must be very fit:laugh:


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> Dogs cant run flat out on a lead. You also said he was as fast as a Greyhound, you must be very fit:laugh:


yes he does run flat out and i am actually extremely fit, but he does run flat out, its not a close lead its a very long recall lead and i'm sure i know what my dog does better then anyone else.

i see him run flat out without it and on it and there is no difference.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> So if my dog was off leash, minding his own business and another dog came over, kept pestering him and jumping on him despite repeatedly being told (politely) to pack it in and my dog eventually roared at it and gave an inhibited bite (which usually ended with the offending dog on its back but not physically forced there or pinned there) then it's my dog who should be kept leashed? I disagree.


I can see where you are coming from, when i think of harvey my eldest springer now he has been an amazing dog in so many ways and still is, he has and still does play with any dogs will allow any other dog into his garden, that house with no second thought, but he is 11 now and very fit very active but lately when playing with much younger dogs he does now seem to keep out of their way and leave our younger one to it if they jump at him or run around him quickly he will bark and have a grumble at them, he did this to someone 6 month old lab and they owner looked a bit put out, until i explained he was old and think his back end must be a little sore, and she then realised that that no harvey wasnt nasty or a threat. But someone seeing this could see him as a little aggressive, which is no way true and no way would i ever stop his off lead walks, there are different degrees of agressivness and i do think the word aggressive is used too conveniently/un-nesessarily.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I don't know where you did your research, but I'm not sure I would agree with their needs being the same. Very similar in the same way most dogs' needs are, but there is a difference between the show and working. Firstly, I doubt a show spaniel would ever get anywhere near good enough to trial   (but should run to the hills after saying that ). After a certain amount, the amount of exercise a dog needs is rather dependant on their fitness. Typically, what a working bred dog needs far more than their show counterparts is mental stimulation - a 'job' to do. If not given these, they will simply find something to do which may or may not be what the owner wants. They are mentally much more alert and this is probably the biggest different (apart from physical appearance).


How very sad that show dogs of the same breed are so different. But I understood there were plenty of gundogs that were shown too and some dual champions so not quite sure where you are getting your info from.

Every springer I have ever known has needed a lot of stimulation and a lot of exercise. Never seen a difference in types.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Blitz said:


> How very sad that show dogs of the same breed are so different. But I understood there were plenty of gundogs that were shown too and some dual champions so not quite sure where you are getting your info from.
> 
> Every springer I have ever known has needed a lot of stimulation and a lot of exercise. Never seen a difference in types.


Ive been disagreed with but no they arnt so different. There are also in the cocker and springer show and working, our cocker was as far as we could go back pure working thats why he looked very different to many cockers, ive met loads of cocker and springers from working especially cockers that have very distunctive features of the show breed.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> yes he does run flat out and i am actually extremely fit, but he does run flat out, its not a close lead its a very long recall lead and i'm sure i know what my dog does better then anyone else.
> 
> i see him run flat out without it and on it and there is no difference.


this is what Ollie does too. I can just about keep up with Ollie when he's flat out, but he does get flat out running on his flexi lead because I run to keep up with him. i don't restrict his running at all, so I don't know why people assume this of people who have their dogs on lead.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> yes he does run flat out and i am actually extremely fit, but he does run flat out, its not a close lead its a very long recall lead and i'm sure i know what my dog does better then anyone else.
> 
> i see him run flat out without it and on it and there is no difference.


Well I couldn't keep up with mine at full pelt.I'm not unfit either.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> Well I couldn't keep up with mine at full pelt.I'm not unfit either.


well on a longline you dont have to be just next to them and they can go around you or back the other way.

he isnt deprived of anything being on it and i have control and peace of mind too.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

kat&molly said:


> Well I couldn't keep up with mine at full pelt.I'm not unfit either.


Ha Ha i was just thinking that myself, especially molly my god. and when i think of harvey in his younger days i could never ever have kept up neither could i have run on the same terrain has they can. Running with a dog and i cant be full pelt is an alternative but not the same.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I can run 100m in 14 seconds and 5km in just over 20 minutes (probably less at my fitest but I never raced one then) but I couldn't have kept up with my smooth collie at full pelt, nor with the spaniel (especially not through the undergrowth and I'm an orienteer and fell-runner so used to running on the rough stuff). Not repeatedly as often as they go full pelt out an off lead walk anyway. So you guys must be serious athletes.

Why don'tyou just get your dogs into a game of fetch and give them chance to really run without *really* being out of control.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> Why don'tyou just get your dogs into a game of fetch and give them chance to really run without *really* being out of control.


I wonder how many dogs in this world only get that!
Down to the playing field, chuck a few balls and back home.
Dog exhausted but bored witless


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I'm not saying that's all they should get but something like that build into a longer on-long line walk would at least satisfy the need for them to run flat out a bit. At least with a collie. Spaniels need to "work" in the undergrowth in my opinion.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

kat&molly said:


> Well I couldn't keep up with mine at full pelt.I'm not unfit either.





haeveymolly said:


> Ha Ha i was just thinking that myself, especially molly my god. and when i think of harvey in his younger days i could never ever have kept up neither could i have run on the same terrain has they can. Running with a dog and i cant be full pelt is an alternative but not the same.


I take pride in my fitness like Werehorse and can run some pretty respectable times (sad to most folk I know) and, having seen Kilo run truly flat out I am absolutely certain I couldn't keep up :. My best effort is a trot for Kilo and he rarely stretches out to full speed even with other dogs; having seen him accelerate as fast as possible and be 100m away in what seems like the blink of an eye I am fairly confident that not even Usain Bolt could manage to keep up. That is also how I KNOW that, for my particular dog, he needs free running and mucking about in the garden does not constitute exercise.

I am careful where I let him off and remain aware of my surroundings although I make an effort to make as many of his walks as possible offlead - if he has been onlead then I take him to the field and he gets and hour or so offlead as well. Yesterday we went on a lovely walk where all dogs bar Kilo were offlead as we were on a path that was packed with cyclists and runners. He is much better at ignoring them than he was after a lot of work but I will never let him off in such a place in case he chases and also as it can be fairly daunting to come across large offlead dogs whilst out running. Loads of people yesterday were saying it was a shame he couldn't go off - the same folk who were finding their own dogs chasing cyclist and runners hilarious .


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> I'm not saying that's all they should get but something like that build into a longer on-long line walk would at least satisfy the need for them to run flat out a bit. At least with a collie. Spaniels need to "work" in the undergrowth in my opinion.


im sorry but you have no idea of the amount of exercise he has, just because he walks on a lead does not mean he never runs full out!

he plays fetch, in the garden which by the way is huge, he runs full out.
i take him to the park where he plays with other dogs and enjoys himself and runs full out just on a longline recall lead.

he also has walks too, i dont want him to forage as he has caught 2 major stomach bugs and we was advised about letting him do that.

if you have never seen him, how do you know that he never goes full out?

my dogs lacks nothing and runs full out, believe me.


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## barbinabox (Nov 23, 2011)

geminili said:


> Hi I am new to this forum and joined specifically because of this thread.
> 
> My pup approached an on lead aggressive dog with no muzzle (this dog was bigger than my dog and if it was to have escaped, I think my pup would have been in a very dangerous place, the owner warned me he is not dog friendly, I tried recalling but was unable to so I went to put my dog on the leash to walk away. The owner of the aggressive dog was struggling to hold her dog. My dog wasnt jumping but wanted to sniff this other dog. I felt the other owners tension made the situation worst. I got told off that if I couldnt control my dog it should be on a leash.
> 
> Many thanks.


I joined this forum for a similar reason. I have always had a dog in my life and never had any problem with recall until last September. I took on a young retriever that had been rehomed twice already and I strongly suspect it was because of his poor recall. I set about teaching him and taking him to training classes. One day I was pleased with our walk, 50 minutes behaving well off-leash, when he end of our walk my dog approached a woman with 2 large dogs on leads and would not come back to me. She was so verbally aggressive towards me for not being in control of my dog that I was absolutely astonished, especially as the dogs had not actually come into contact. 
I have to wonder in this particular case at least, who instigates the aggression? Who was more out of control?
How will I ever be able to teach my dog recall if he is not allowed ever to fail?


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I take pride in my fitness like Werehorse and can run some pretty respectable times (sad to most folk I know) and, having seen Kilo run truly flat out I am absolutely certain I couldn't keep up :. My best effort is a trot for Kilo and he rarely stretches out to full speed even with other dogs; having seen him accelerate as fast as possible and be 100m away in what seems like the blink of an eye I am fairly confident that not even Usain Bolt could manage to keep up. That is also how I KNOW that, for my particular dog, he needs free running and mucking about in the garden does not constitute exercise.
> 
> I am careful where I let him off and remain aware of my surroundings although I make an effort to make as many of his walks as possible offlead - if he has been onlead then I take him to the field and he gets and hour or so offlead as well. Yesterday we went on a lovely walk where all dogs bar Kilo were offlead as we were on a path that was packed with cyclists and runners. He is much better at ignoring them than he was after a lot of work but I will never let him off in such a place in case he chases and also as it can be fairly daunting to come across large offlead dogs whilst out running. Loads of people yesterday were saying it was a shame he couldn't go off - the same folk who were finding their own dogs chasing cyclist and runners hilarious .


I couldn't even keep up with Evie
In my defense she is fast


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

kat&molly said:


> I couldn't even keep up with Evie
> In my defense she is fast


It is a rare human that could keep up with any fit and healthy dog with the exception of certain breeds!!


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> im sorry but you have no idea of the amount of exercise he has, just because he walks on a lead does not mean he never runs full out!
> 
> he plays fetch, in the garden which by the way is huge, he runs full out.
> i take him to the park where he plays with other dogs and enjoys himself and runs full out just on a longline recall lead.
> ...


Learn to read.

I didn't say your dog lacked anything. I said I couldn't keep up with my dog running full out (and was expressing surprise that other people thought they could keep up with theirs) and I suggested playing fetch as a way to allow a dog offlead, flat out running. If you already do that then I'm not talking to you am I?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogless said:


> It is a rare human that could keep up with any fit and healthy dog with the exception of certain breeds!!


Couldn't keep up with my old cripple when a couple of deer broke in front of him this morning :yikes:
Luckily it was over a nice flat field and he just did a 75 meter dash


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

I hate the times that Evie has to stay on a longlead-because I know for a fact that she doesn't get so much out of these walks. It doesn't matter how much I interact with her she would prefer to be tearing through the undergrowth with the others.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Dogless said:


> It is a rare human that could keep up with any fit and healthy dog with the exception of certain breeds!!


We have some rare humans on here


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

rona said:


> Couldn't keep up with my old cripple when a couple of deer broke in front of him this morning :yikes:
> Luckily it was over a nice flat field and he just did a 75 meter dash


I always feel a sense of awe when I watch a dog sprint...amazing creatures!!


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

barbinabox said:


> I joined this forum for a similar reason. I have always had a dog in my life and never had any problem with recall until last September. I took on a young retriever that had been rehomed twice already and I strongly suspect it was because of his poor recall. I set about teaching him and taking him to training classes. One day I was pleased with our walk, 50 minutes behaving well off-leash, when he end of our walk my dog approached a woman with 2 large dogs on leads and would not come back to me. She was so verbally aggressive towards me for not being in control of my dog that I was absolutely astonished, especially as the dogs had not actually come into contact.
> I have to wonder in this particular case at least, who instigates the aggression? Who was more out of control?
> How will I ever be able to teach my dog recall if he is not allowed ever to fail?


I do not mean to in anyway agree with any human aggression however Would it possible to set up something with people and dogs you know? maybe even friends you have made through class?

While as i say i don't condone or practise human agression in these situations, You did not know why these dogs were on lead, it's not fair to assume aggression there are many reasons why dogs can be 'DINOS' dogs in need of space.

I remember Tinks on lead walks after her spay... feck they were hell. She was well full of energy and wanting to play.... her stitches however were not. I may well have assertively requested they control their dog, if someone's dog came over and encouraged her further risking her ripping her stitches and spilling her entrails on the ground.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

You know what? Life's too short for this!

I've stated my opinion, tried to make some kind of point about not being too controlling by telling the tale of my childhood dog, been accused of being an irresponsible dog owner because people can't actually read (only pick out certain words).

I think anyone who keeps their dog leashed because of their own paranoia needs to take a long hard look at themselves. There are genuine reasons for leashing a dog all the time but there are also plenty of non-valid reasons. I'm not saying they are bad owners, they are probably very good, at least very concerned owners. But every dog wil appreciate time off-lead and it is worth working towards that.

MOST dogs could be safely let off with enough training and in the right situations. SOME dogs can't and deserve to be un-harrassed by off-lead dogs. I think that second point, at least, we all agree on.

I'm not a perfect owner, not by a long chalk, but that doesn't mean I can't express an opinion about dog on or off leads in general. I feel a bit bad for getting personal but it happens when people start getting personal with me, I'm afraid. And if you are going to claim to be able to keep up with a collie running full pelt, even on a 20 m long line, expect to be called on it for the nonsense it is.

I take comfort in the fact that most dogs I meet out and about are off-lead and perfectly well-behaved with it. At least opinions expressed on this thread are not representative of the condition of the entire dog-owning population, at least not in my neck of the woods.

So I'm bowing out. There's no winning when people are prepared to delude themselves to the point of ludicrousness.

Now, where's that ignore button?


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

In my opinion, if your dog doesnt come back 98% of the time then you shouldnt have him off lead in public. It is dangerous for the dog, the owner, children, livestock and passersby, no matter how friendly your dog is.

One of my dogs was attacked by an off-lead border terrier and the damage to his stomach was pretty bad. Luckily it didnt affect his temperament at all and is still very friendly towards other dogs.

Even though my dobe is great, I put him on a lead in areas with lots of children and people as I think a large dog running about can be a little worrying for some people, and I wouldnt want him to risk accidently knocking someone over. 

I think dogs need time off lead; however owners need to choose appropriate times and places. I dont think the UK is massively dog friendly, in that I still sometimes get dirty looks for having my dogs off lead in off-lead areas of woodland! Even though they're not bothering anyone.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> How will I ever be able to teach my dog recall if he is not allowed ever to fail?


No one gets it 100% obedience to start with, but remember each time a dog 'fails' it is learning that behaviour so best not to put your dog in a situation where failure is likely.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Ok, seriously... where IS the ignore button??


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> Ok, seriously... where IS the ignore button??


Click on the name of the person you wish to ignore.
Under their name on their profile page is a "user lists" tab. Click on that and "add to ignore list" is there


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> there are different degrees of agressivness and i do think the word aggressive is used too conveniently/un-nesessarily.


As do I. There seems to be a lot of pressure these days to have a dog who tolerates absolutely anything without so much as a grumble. Not very realistic or fair to the dogs. There is a hell of a difference between a dog like my Shadow or your Harvey and a dog who really is aggressive.

For what it's worth I don't really care whether people choose to keep their dogs on leash or not, as long as their dog isn't causing me problems it's their choice. I would never restrict mine to a leash if it could be avoided but each to their own.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> No one gets it 100% obedience to start with, but remember each time a dog 'fails' it is learning that behaviour so best not to put your dog in a situation where failure is likely.


mmmm ime not sure about that theory tbh when i was teaching recall many times i could just tell when i shouted mine whether they were going to repond to me or not so rather than allowing them to ignore me by keep shouting his name i used to turn and walk away,when he did come i would fuss and treat, when he came first time the fuss was always very different, consistency, accepting there will be off days and these off days didnt in any way teach mine bad behaviour.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> As do I. There seems to be a lot of pressure these days to have a dog who tolerates absolutely anything without so much as a grumble. Not very realistic or fair to the dogs. There is a hell of a difference between a dog like my Shadow or your Harvey and a dog who really is aggressive.
> 
> For what it's worth I don't really care whether people choose to keep their dogs on leash or not, as long as their dog isn't causing me problems it's their choice. I would never restrict mine to a leash if it could be avoided but each to their own.


Agree there is a difference, in the 11yrs of harveys life we have never,ever seen him bare his teeth or really growl, he just isnt that type of dog and my god he had something to put up with when molly arrived so just because he grumbles and barks at a dog now for knocking him over or knocking him out of the way when there is some obvious soreness there, no way would anyone dare when we are out even assume he is aggressive:mad5: haha no one ever has and all the regular walkers where i go all know harvey and know the score, they even joke about harvey been the top brass and what harvey says goes. He much prefers to stand every so often and check all are present and correct as there can be 7 or 8 dogs up there at a time, he thinks hes responsible for keeping them together and making sure they all behave, hes sooo funny............ and gorg


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> mmmm ime not sure about that theory tbh when i was teaching recall many times i could just tell when i shouted mine whether they were going to repond to me or not so rather than allowing them to ignore me by keep shouting his name i used to turn and walk away,when he did come i would fuss and treat, when he came first time the fuss was always very different, consistency, accepting there will be off days and these off days didnt in any way teach mine bad behaviour.


That's exactly what I'm saying! If you know your dog is likely to ignore you then there is no point in recalling because all you are teaching is to ignore the recall.


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

For me, it is very important to be able to let a dog off lead. I would never own a breed like a husky, that I know I would not be able to let off lead. However, if I did end up with a dog who could not be let off lead for whatever reason, I am sure we would find ways around it - long line, enclosed spaces etc).

My Bella loves running (crazy circles, figure 8s etc). She is only 7kg but bl**dy fast! She would not be able to do this on lead. I am lucky because she does have good recall and I give her 2 off lead walks a day... but if she didn't have good recall, despite my training efforts, I can think of certain ways around it. We have friends with a massive garden and a dog of their own who Bella adores and they play beautifully together. Bella always has a great tome when we visit and comes back exhausted and happy. 
I could also rent tennis courts (enclosed) and arrange to go with friends who have dogs so she could run around there.

The above would not substitute her off lead walks, but I still think she could have a good quality of life.

So basically I like being able to let my dog off lead and she gets a huge amount of pleasure, exercise, stimulation and socialisation from this. But I do not have a problem with dogs being kept off lead provided they are given a good quality of life!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't see what people's problem is. *I know my dog*, I know his abilities, I know when he's running flat out (and I can keep up with him). I provide him with plenty of new experiences and smells (which is all he's really interested in). He gets a long walk every day, where he can run in and out of long grass or in bushes and between trees (just like an off lead dog would). I play fetch with him (my garden is very long) so he runs flat out then. I do agility with him so he also using his muscles for jumping and running and doing tight circles etc. I also do mental stimulation with him, such as obedience, trick training etc.

My dog gets far more than some dogs out there, and I'm still made to feel like a bad owner. The only difference between on flexi and off lead (for Ollie) is that he's attached to me. He still gets to do the same things as he would off lead, he still gets to experience the same things as he would off lead.

Why is there such bad feeling about this?


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

I think it just boils down to people being rather close minded and unimaginative when it comes to what constitutes a good life for a dog. Im been given grief over the fact that my dogs dont have a fence to keep them safe. (We live on 20 acres that borders 500 acres of unused land that we have full access too.) Somehow the fact that my dogs are unfenced when theyre outside makes me irresponsible. Never mind that they all have rock-solid recall and never leave my sight. 

I know city dogs who get more activity, stimulation and interaction with their humans than many suburban dogs left forgotten in the large back yard, or farm dogs that are little more than pasture ornaments. Its all relative. Whether or not the dog goes off leash is no litmus test of good ownership or how good a life a dog has.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I don't see what people's problem is. *I know my dog*, I know his abilities, I know when he's running flat out (and I can keep up with him). I provide him with plenty of new experiences and smells (which is all he's really interested in). He gets a long walk every day, where he can run in and out of long grass or in bushes and between trees (just like an off lead dog would). I play fetch with him (my garden is very long) so he runs flat out then. I do agility with him so he also using his muscles for jumping and running and doing tight circles etc. I also do mental stimulation with him, such as obedience, trick training etc.
> 
> My dog gets far more than some dogs out there, and I'm still made to feel like a bad owner. The only difference between on flexi and off lead (for Ollie) is that he's attached to me. He still gets to do the same things as he would off lead, he still gets to experience the same things as he would off lead.
> 
> Why is there such bad feeling about this?


exactly, dogs who are on leads can run flat out on long leads and off in their gardens and have a bloody good life too. i'd rather alfie not be injured or lost and be on a long lead then otherwise which i think is responsible.

only we know how much exercise and fun our own dogs have and sometimes we are being told otherwise.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

also i dont like the fact that some on here who say our dogs do not have a good quality of life without offlead walks feel a dog has a great quality of life left home alone all day in a cage with no interaction or stimulation it just seems like the two polar opposites. 

I just dont think you can truly believe the two things go hand in hand.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

> also i dont like the fact that some on here who say our dogs do not have a good quality of life without offlead walks feel a dog has a great quality of life left home alone all day in a cage with no interaction or stimulation it just seems like the two polar opposites.


I'd like to know who said that because I haven't seen anyone say anything that even suggests it. However, a dog who's left for several hours a day can certainly have a better quality of life than a dog who has someone home all day every day. Depends on the owner and what they actually do with the dog.

I don't believe a dog can't have a good quality of life on leash, it would just be my preference to let my dog off wherever possible. Blanket statements not working goes both ways * Your *dog may be able to run flat out on a long line, *mine* couldn't. Nor could I have possibly kept up with him if he had. He behaved differently off leash too, he got a lot more out of off leash walks than on leash ones.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> exactly, dogs who are on leads can run flat out on long leads and off in their gardens and have a bloody good life too. i'd rather alfie not be injured or lost and be on a long lead then otherwise which i think is responsible.
> 
> only we know how much exercise and fun our own dogs have and sometimes we are being told otherwise.


What breed are you thinking of when you say they can run flat out on a lead?


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I have personally found Millie behaves very different on a lead to off lead - especially a flexi (which I use daily for a morning walk around the village before work) as the flexi continuously puts slight pressure on she knows she is on a lead and behaves accordingly - She would never attempt to run whilst attached to a flexi.

Personally I would never dream of keeping Millie on a lead because she has a safe recall and I judge the places where I let her off. But that's my personal opinion based on my confidence in not only myself but also Millie. 

BUT if you have made the conscious decision to keep a dog on lead forever more for whatever reason it cannot be a substitute for a good recall. You need to ensure your dog still has excellent recall incase they slip a collar / escape / clip fails on long line or something goes wrong. Whilst a solid recall is rewarding a solid recall is also a life saver :thumbup1:

As for being able to keep up with a dog at full pelt all I can think is some peoples dogs must have short legs or not be fast runners! As a puppy my hubby could keep up with Millie but no way now especially when having a 'Millie Moment' lol she is a black and tan blur!. If she wanted to b***er off then she could - We would never catch up with her lol


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

by the way, when I say i can keep up with Ollie when hes running full pelt, I don't mean running alongside him (that would be him trotting). I usually start the run when Ollie's about 8 metres behind me (the full length of his flexi), and then call him and run and he then has 16 metres of flexi (whilst I'm running too, say I run 10 metres in the time it takes for him to run both lengths of the flexi, he's run 26 metres), and he is running full pelt at this point. By the time he gets to the end of the flexi in front of me, he's run a long way and I still try to keep up with him, which works for a little while and then I slow him down.

For most of the walk, he canters around me, running from spot to spot sniffing. He ends the walk worn out and panting, even in winter.

Whatever way you look at it, it's still allowing them to run full pelt. And also as we play fetch in the garden, he's doing runs then too.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Still can't find the darn ignore feature. Or perhaps I should grow some kind of selective "only read things how I want to read them" internal ignore button that some members clearly have.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Doberma'am said:


> I don't use flexi leads on big dogs. I walk two Lurchers, both on flexi's. I had a huge fright the other week, because Marlow, the Lab/Sighthound mix, leapt toward a cat. I heard a _ping_ and the lead unravelled! Nearly died on the spot. He'd pulled hard enough to unlock the lead, but not enough to break the lead. Lucky, because we were by a main road, and he doesn't have a name-tag or a good recall!
> 
> I did broach the subject with his owner, and from now on I'll be taking along a real lead.
> 
> That's why I don't like flexi leads for big dogs. I've been so careful not to let something like that happen. It happened anyway. It was just luck that he hadn't broken it.


I'd refuse to walk any dog without a name tag. The law requires one.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

kat&molly said:


> Do you seriously think agility in the garden is better than a dog getting free running:frown2:


Certainly can be for a dog that loves doing agility. The mental work for the dog in following the directions is part of the exercise. I know Kite prefers agility to playing ball on the beach.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

All this dog running at full pelt while on a lead sounds absolutely ludicrous to me, what happens when the dog who is running at full pelt runs out of lead


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> All this dog running at full pelt while on a lead sounds absolutely ludicrous to me, what happens when the dog who is running at full pelt runs out of lead


you either catch them up or you teach them a command to slow down (for Ollie, its whoa, and he slows right down). He certainly doesn't get a jolt when he reaches the end of the lead.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> Still can't find the darn ignore feature. Or perhaps I should grow some kind of selective "only read things how I want to read them" internal ignore button that some members clearly have.


Did you see my instructions on page 28?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

It must be so difficult and tiring running with them(but then you are younger than me) but to have to watch and judge just how fast they are running and judge when to slow them down. Ive certainly got the easy life.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> Certainly can be for a dog that loves doing agility. The mental work for the dog in following the directions is part of the exercise. I know Kite prefers agility to playing ball on the beach.


I know a lot of dogs enjoy agility and mental exercises- you know your dog has a preference, some of these dogs here dont have that.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Coffee said:


> Did you see my instructions on page 28?


Yes, but am clearly a numpty and still can't work it out... can't find the "Lists tab"?

ETA - no! Got it now. Fabulous.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

I`m in the offlead camp,the only times fudge is on lead is near roads,around children or bikes or if other dogs are onlead.
He panics when he`s away from me for too long.
He loves to chase his football and chase seagulls,he couldnt do that on lead.
I guess i was lucky,i never really had issues with recall,he was a bit of nightmare when he was a puppy,running up to other dogs,but now he`s happy to have a quick sniff,maybe a play then walk away.
I hated it when he was lead walk only after his leg ops,his face when he was allowed offlead for the 1st time was a picture.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Helbo said:


> Simple - any aggression and the dog should never be walked off-lead in my opinion. And if you think socialisation could help your own dog, then muzzle them so the other people's dogs aren't at risk of being bitten. But keep them on a lead. Its ridiculous to put other people's pets at risk of being traumatised or injured just because your dog has problems!
> 
> I think far too many people ignore the signs that state a dog should be on a lead - so if there are signs then there should be no off-lead play. OR, if you insists on ignoring the rules your dog should recall 100% of the time - no exceptions.
> 
> If it's an off-lead area (the aggression rule stated earlier still applies in my opinion) then dogs should be allowed to be off-lead and play. BUT, off-lead dog owners should still be considerate to those who walk their dogs on a lead in these areas (perhaps they live nearby and its the only green area they can walk to?) - on the flip side, owners who walk in these areas with a dog on a lead shouldn't get too annoyed by off-lead dogs running by...


Balanced and sensible comments


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

No one here is saying anyone is a bad owner- some of these posts are quite bizarre though:skep:
In my experience, for what its worth, a dog that you have from pup is so much easier, you are that dogs world and you take advantage of that and build from it. To teach recall with an adult is more difficult. It requires a lot more work.
There will always be exceptions, but IMO thats all they should be not the norm.
Speaking as someone who has 3 dogs free running every day and another one who cant sometimes I KNOW who prefers what and I wont kid myself otherwise


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> Yes, but am clearly a numpty and still can't work it out... can't find the "Lists tab"?
> 
> ETA - no! Got it now. Fabulous.


Oh give it up as a bad job and join back in the debate  your imput is as good as anyone elses.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> Still can't find the darn ignore feature. Or perhaps I should grow some kind of selective "only read things how I want to read them" internal ignore button that some members clearly have.


Click on the persons name, go to their profile and just under their name look for the bit that says "user lists" and there's an "add to ignore list" option there.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Dogless said:


> It is a rare human that could keep up with any fit and healthy dog with the exception of certain breeds!!


Easier if the dog's got short legs like a cocker though. You can't compare running speeds of ridgebacks, smooth collies or springers and say they can't be running flat out, with a smaller, short-legged dog that just can't cover the ground the same way.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Click on the persons name, go to their profile and just under their name look for the bit that says "user lists" and there's an "add to ignore list" option there.


I found it thank you. I shall now live in blissful ignorance.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> Easier if the dog's got short legs like a cocker though. You can't compare running speeds of ridgebacks, smooth collies or springers and say they can't be running flat out, with a smaller, short-legged dog that just can't cover the ground the same way.


 i could never have kept up with my cocker, he would be full pelt, zig-zagging with his nose to the ground, my god hed have had anyone ar*e over t**  my springers..............well i cant imagine.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> Easier if the dog's got short legs like a cocker though. You can't compare running speeds of ridgebacks, smooth collies or springers and say they can't be running flat out, with a smaller, short-legged dog that just can't cover the ground the same way.


Absolutely - I am always just in awe of nearly all dogs running flat out and know most of them can outrun most humans. I wasn't actually getting at any of the posters on here, more just thinking aloud - wasn't aimed at anyone. I did actually say in a later post that I know that I couldn't provide the flat out exercise needed on lead, with me running or in a garden for my particular dog. I couldn't imagine being able to keep up with many breeds at all TBH!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> I found it thank you. I shall now live in blissful ignorance.


Unless of course people quote whoever you have on ignore.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> Easier if the dog's got short legs like a cocker though. You can't compare running speeds of ridgebacks, smooth collies or springers and say they can't be running flat out, with a smaller, short-legged dog that just can't cover the ground the same way.


I've got a Teckel, they dont come much shorter than that-I cant keep up with her and its not because I'm unfit.
Would you like to race her








Perhaps thats the difference - these dogs aren't fit


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

I have been following this thread and haven't replied but i thought i'd clear something up.

Yes, my 10 week old puppy was offlead from day 1(we got him at 10.5 weeks old fully vaccinated), i had access to 2 totally secure fields on the farm, the smaller one was great for training and the other was much bigger and we used that for exercise and distance recalls. I also had the farm road to train LLW and more recalls and in Pittenweem i had the farm paths which were very high sided, the skate park and a very enclosed beach area.

Tummel did lose his recall when his hormones kicked in but his recall is very good now and i weigh up each place i take him before letting him offlead(no matter if we've been there before).


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Unless of course people quote whoever you have on ignore.


True, but that probably means they are disagreeing with them so I can just like the post.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

ballybee said:


> I have been following this thread and haven't replied but i thought i'd clear something up.
> 
> Yes, my 10 week old puppy was offlead from day 1(we got him at 10.5 weeks old fully vaccinated), i had access to 2 totally secure fields on the farm, the smaller one was great for training and the other was much bigger and we used that for exercise and distance recalls. I also had the farm road to train LLW and more recalls and in Pittenweem i had the farm paths which were very high sided, the skate park and a very enclosed beach area.
> 
> Tummel did lose his recall when his hormones kicked in but his recall is very good now and i weigh up each place i take him before letting him offlead(no matter if we've been there before).


This is the key to most successful recall, off lead from day 1 thats what we have done with all of ours and we have never had any problems, he ammount of people ive spoke to with pups who have said we are waiting till he/she's a bit older yes and sometimes its too late, not too late for then to ne taught recall but too late for recall to be taught much easier. i always say catch them while they are naturaly wanting to stay close and i dont think you can go far wrong.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> I've got a Teckel, they dont come much shorter than that-I cant keep up with her and its not because I'm unfit.
> Would you like to race her
> 
> 
> ...


She has legs! A Teckel is a Dachshund isn't it? Or is Google lying to me again?


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Yes she is a Daxie, working bred with a bit of Terrier thrown in to the mix!!
Them legs may be shorter than mine but they're faster.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> Yes she is a Daxie, working bred with a bit of Terrier thrown in to the mix!!
> Them legs may be shorter than mine but they're faster.


Pfft, they're _long_ legs compared to the Daxies I know. A friend showed me a pic of the one she's looking at buying and her chest is barely off the ground. Your girl is lovely though.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Pfft, they're _long_ legs compared to the Daxies I know. A friend showed me a pic of the one she's looking at buying and her chest is barely off the ground. Your girl is lovely though.


I worry about her back, but I hope shes sturdier because of those legs, she seems to be. Fingers crossed.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Our two collies are walked largely offlead, unless of course, we are road-walking them.

Scout has always had good recall, Mira's is good too, she tends to stick with Scout, so if he comes back, so does she.

They are both very good at coming away from other dogs when asked. If we see onlead dogs, (which is rare), we call them in to heel until we've passed them, or until the owner has signalled it's ok to say hello.

My husband runs puppy training classes and says he hasn't yet come across a pup that can't be trained to recall. Obviously there are difficult ones but every dog has something that will motivate him!

I do understand peoples' reservations about dogs being offlead, but in a secure situation, I don't see a problem. Especially with a breed like ours, not sure how we'd exercise our BC's without letting them off! Scout loves going for a run with my husband, but he also loves his clowning around freetime too!


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## JenJen22 (Sep 29, 2011)

I haven't read all of the thread but wanted to say that for my dog off the lead exercise is vital he is a working dog after all. 
If we see a leashed dog in the parks I use his ball as a distraction rather than putting him on leash as he is then 100% focused on me and goes nowhere near other dogs leashed or otherwise. He is leashed on roads etc. 
Clearly everyone has their own opinion about how they exercise their dog but I'd feel it unfair to have Austin on sthg like a long line for exercise. 
I do respect other dog owners who have their dogs leashed and that's why I distract Aus as I would know the other dog is leashed for a reason but I would feel it my fault if I let my dog approach a leashed dog that snapped although this has never happened to us.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> I worry about her back, but I hope shes sturdier because of those legs, she seems to be. Fingers crossed.


She doesn't look as long backed as the ones I've seen. Could be the angle of the picture though.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

JenJen22 said:


> If we see a leashed dog in the parks I use his ball as a distraction rather than putting him on leash as he is then 100% focused on me and goes nowhere near other dogs leashed or otherwise. He is leashed on roads etc.
> Clearly everyone has their own opinion about how they exercise their dog but I'd feel it unfair to have Austin on sthg like a long line for exercise.


Same with ours! Playing ball or frisbee with us is a great distraction, you need to make sure they know you are more fun than that dog way over there, then they don't feel the need to run over!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> All this dog running at full pelt while on a lead sounds absolutely ludicrous to me, what happens when the dog who is running at full pelt runs out of lead





SEVEN_PETS said:


> you either catch them up or you teach them a command to slow down (for Ollie, its whoa, and he slows right down). He certainly doesn't get a jolt when he reaches the end of the lead.


If you can run fast enough to catch up with your dog when it's running at full pelt I can't see why there's a problem letting it off lead. Couldn't you just go and catch hm if he didn't recall?


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

haeveymolly said:


> This is the key to most successful recall, off lead from day 1 thats what we have done with all of ours and we have never had any problems, he ammount of people ive spoke to with pups who have said we are waiting till he/she's a bit older yes and sometimes its too late, not too late for then to ne taught recall but too late for recall to be taught much easier. i always say catch them while they are naturaly wanting to stay close and i dont think you can go far wrong.


This was one of the best pieces of advice I was given when Kenzie was a pup. It was incredibly scary to let her off but her recall has generally been excellent (except for a brief teenage period) which I fully attribute to her being off lead at 12 weeks old.

Kenzie doesn't need a huge amount of exercise and probably could get enough on-lead, but her sheer joy at running freely, and the enjoyment of walking her off lead, is well worth the hard work training recall IMO


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## geminili (Jan 1, 2012)

McKenzie said:


> This was one of the best pieces of advice I was given when Kenzie was a pup. It was incredibly scary to let her off but her recall has generally been excellent (except for a brief teenage period) which I fully attribute to her being off lead at 12 weeks old.
> 
> Kenzie doesn't need a huge amount of exercise and probably could get enough on-lead, but her sheer joy at running freely, and the enjoyment of walking her off lead, is well worth the hard work training recall IMO


I posted a query regarding this..likewise I have been told to let my pup off lead as soon as I can. He is 8 months now and indeed he does stick close however, he does wonder off when he sees another dog. If its far enough and i encourage him to walk on he does. Few days ago he went up to an on lead aggressive dog, I was warned by the owner and I got shouted at because his recall is not 100% and I guess something bad could have happened. This was the first time that I have encountered this situation and now I do get a bit nervous when I take him out off leash. I'm going to buy a long line and work on the recall and also looking forward for him to growing out his pup/ teenage years....although I have to say I do love his bounciness.


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## geminili (Jan 1, 2012)

I posted a query regarding this..likewise I have been told to let my pup off lead as soon as I can. He is 8 months now and indeed he does stick close however, he does wonder off when he sees another dog. If its far enough and i encourage him to walk on he does. Few days ago he went up to an on lead aggressive dog, I was warned by the owner and I got shouted at because his recall is not 100% and I guess something bad could have happened. This was the first time that I have encountered this situation and now I do get a bit nervous when I take him out off leash. I'm going to buy a long line and work on the recall and also looking forward for him to growing out his pup/ teenage years....although I have to say I do love his bounciness.


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## Obzocky (Jan 1, 2012)

Having read through this thread all I can respond with is what several others have said:

I'm on the side of whoever knows their dog, the environment they have to exercise them in and their confidence in their ability to keep their dog safe on/off lead.

Emily has an excellent recall, she's one of the best in her obedience class both in the hall and on the field. _Except_ for when she spots something that could be taken for prey (and most likely is prey). She's kept on a lunge rope (20m) and honestly, given than 97% of the time that's adequate for what she does (wander around aimlessly or give a half hearted attempt at running when I jog). The 3% is divided between times she doesn't want to go for a walk at all (rain, wind, snow) and times where she's spotted something and shan't stop chasing until she loses/catches it.

If I catch on that she's spied something _before_ she gives chase, she'll come back. If I take my eye off her and she's in pursuit it's game over. I *know* my limits, I also know that until I can get a reasonable recall during the chase it is unwise to walk her off lead, especially in a area full of livestock.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Oow I envy people who can let their dogs off lead because we have never done it with the Mals due to their high prey drive and being renowned for bad recall. Doesn't matter where you are if a fox or squirrel comes into sight they have instant human blindness/deafness and it's a risk I wouldn't take. Wish I could take these guys to parks though and people would realise that some on lead dogs don't like off lead dogs. Mals are not particularly dog friendly so the boys can't go over my local park. Kali does and she has never gone for another dog but the fur along the whole of her back goes razor sharp and with her deep growl dogs know to back off. The boys may be less inclined with the subtle warnings though so I don't take the chance.

I love seeing groups of dogs playing but unfortunately I chose a breed that are not very social. I do wish folk understood that on lead dogs may need space though cos then I'd be able to let the boys enjoy what their dogs do!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

hmmm.

My two cents.

From the dogs perspective, there is nothing better than being let of the lead to have a good roam about...they love it and it is no doubt good for them.

However, from a NEW owners perspective, I worry about him running off and not returning, or approaching another dog and either mounting it or worse still injuring it.

Then, quite often we see very young children out in areas where we walk the dog, i wouldn't want my over exuberant dog scaring them so much that they ended up with a fear of dogs, this kind of happened to me.

Certainly in residential areas the dog needs to be kept on a lead, in my opinion.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Malmum said:


> Oow I envy people who can let their dogs off lead because we have never done it with the Mals due to their high prey drive and being renowned for bad recall. Doesn't matter where you are if a fox or squirrel comes into sight they have instant human blindness/deafness and it's a risk I wouldn't take. Wish I could take these guys to parks though and people would realise that some on lead dogs don't like off lead dogs. Mals are not particularly dog friendly so the boys can't go over my local park. Kali does and she has never gone for another dog but the fur along the whole of her back goes razor sharp and with her deep growl dogs know to back off. The boys may be less inclined with the subtle warnings though so I don't take the chance.
> 
> I love seeing groups of dogs playing but unfortunately I chose a breed that are not very social. I do wish folk understood that on lead dogs may need space though cos then I'd be able to let the boys enjoy what their dogs do!


Totally sympathise with this....

My two Greek Rescues are anti-social, so we have to avoid off lead dogs. We can't walk in parks, and I'm even wary through woods.

People who have these "friendly" dogs just don't understand. And to be honest they have little knowledge about dog behaviour, because they don;'t need to.

I think all dogs should be on a lead in a public place, with the exception of designated "off lead" places.

We live in a society which is irresponsible and does what it likes. Therefore you cannot rely on the general public to be sensible...


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

dandogman said:


> A friendly dog doesnt hurt anyone by being friendly.


Be interested in what dogs you have had past and present and their back grounds.

Only a person who has not had to deal with a nervous or frightened dog would say such a thing....


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I think all dogs should be on a lead in a public place, with the exception of designated "off lead" places.
> 
> We live in a society which is irresponsible and does what it likes. Therefore you cannot rely on the general public to be sensible...


So those that are responsible and keep their off lead dogs under control should be punished for those that don't?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Everyone who says dogs should be off lead, I don't think should judge. How do you know that some dogs (eg mine) get the same exercise on a flexi as off lead? You don't know these dogs. If you feel your own dog wouldn't get the same exercise, that is fine as some dogs need more exercise than others. However some dogs do absolutely fine on flexis and get the same amount of exercise on a flexi as off lead. And I'm not kidding myself for thinking that, because I have seen the evidence for myself with my own dog.
> 
> My dog hasn't been off lead for well over a year, always on a flexi or on a short lead, and he certainly isn't hyper, or bouncing off the walls, or charging around on his lead, like some people would probably expect. He's calm, and usually is asleep all day. This says to me he's getting enough exercise.


I think people have trouble understanding why your breed of dog would be confined to a lead...

Springers are high energy, inquisitive dogs who massively benefit from being off a lead so they can use their nose the way they were meant to.

You also don't help yourself by saying that his recall is 95% good.

I think the vast majority of owners in your situation (from how you have described it) would have him off lead.

If your dog was prono to DA or had other issues, then it would be understandable. But he doesn't and so people find it hard to understand....


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

hawksport said:


> So those that are responsible and keep their off lead dogs under control should be punished for those that don't?


I know it sounds harsh. But I am sick to death of stupid owners. Sensible owners are a rariety. So if it means I can walk my on lead dogs without fear of off lead dogs approaching, then yes.

Why should my walks be restricted?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

i too believe that dogs should be on lead unless it is an offlead area. this way it is easier to keep all dogs, both fearful and not safe.

dogs who show aggression towards others should always be under control, regardless of if the owner thinks they want the dog offlead. this is unsafe and just narrow minded to let an aggressive dog offlead.

i think that people who say that dogs are lacking because they are not left offlead are being too judgemental and only the owners of the dog knows what is best for them. dogs can have plenty of fun on a longlead and there is always the safety element to it too.

about letting a young pup offlead, many have said one that young is fine as they stay next to you, well having had alfie, the most overconfident dog from that age i would say its not true for everyone. the first time at a park he just went running to the extent of his longlead without a glance back at me!

i think its best to go case by case and not generalise and say every dog should be roaming free as it is not the way for every dog and owner out there.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> I know it sounds harsh. But I am sick to death of stupid owners. Sensible owners are a rariety. So if it means I can walk my on lead dogs without fear of off lead dogs approaching, then yes.
> 
> Why should my walks be restricted?


Why should other dogs walks be restricted? Believe me, I've been there with the on leash dog and off leash dogs approaching but no way do I want all dogs kept on leash. I avoided popular off leash areas in normal hours since I didn't believe other dogs walks should be restricted just coz mine was a nasty bugger.

The ones that made me angry were the ones with off leash dogs on the streets or in areas where dogs were supposed to be leashed.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> i too believe that dogs should be on lead unless it is an offlead area. this way it is easier to keep all dogs, both fearful and not safe.


I have only once seen a designated off leash area and that was on a military camp. Open areas, woods, parks etc I assume are off leash areas unless it specifically says otherwise. People tend to let their dogs off in places like that and knowing that I avoided them with my aggressive dog. I just wish they'd had the courtesy to leash their "friendly" dogs on the streets and on leash areas.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I have only once seen a designated off leash area and that was on a military camp. Open areas, woods, parks etc I assume are off leash areas unless it specifically says otherwise. People tend to let their dogs off in places like that and knowing that I avoided them with my aggressive dog. I just wish they'd had the courtesy to leash their "friendly" dogs on the streets and on leash areas.


here its quite good where i live as the park i go to is a leash one and then there is a secure enclosure which is the offlead part.

it's good so like for you with your dog you could have the huge field and everything for your dog to play with onlead and there are not meant to be any offlead dogs and then the enclosure is where others can let them off.

the problem is is that some people will not abide the rules and you have their dog bounding over offlead, even though the rules are onlead.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I know it sounds harsh. But I am sick to death of stupid owners. Sensible owners are a rariety. So if it means I can walk my on lead dogs without fear of off lead dogs approaching, then yes.
> 
> Why should my walks be restricted?


There are lots of people sick to death of irresponsible Staffy owners and in some areas well behaved ones are a rarity. 
Deed not lead


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I don't use my local park, I generally go to MOD land and other countryside areas. I'd love to see greater understanding and adherence to the country code.

The following taken from Natural England's website.

"Keep dogs under close control

The countryside is a great place to exercise dogs, but it's every owner's duty to make sure their dog is not a danger or nuisance to farm animals, wildlife or *other people*.
■
You do not have to put your dog on a lead on public paths, as long as it is under close control. But as a general rule, keep your dog on a lead if you cannot rely on its obedience."

I see far too many dogs that are neither close or under any sort of control. I have to say particularly at weekends and school holidays.

So back to the title question of this thread...... Dog on a leash or free roaming.....I'm going for a 3rd option..... Dog under close control whether that be on or off lead.

bold added


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> here its quite good where i live as the park i go to is a leash one and then there is a secure enclosure which is the offlead part.
> 
> it's good so like for you with your dog you could have the huge field and everything for your dog to play with onlead and there are not meant to be any offlead dogs and then the enclosure is where others can let them off.
> 
> the problem is is that some people will not abide the rules and you have their dog bounding over offlead, even though the rules are onlead.


Yeah, that's the sort of thing that really makes me angry. In Ireland we had a field with a sign saying dogs must be kept leashed and literally just across the road was the off leash one. Would have been perfect for us if people had followed the rules. But they didn't, there were often dogs off leash on the on leash field and of course if they ran up to my dog and he kicked off I was the one at fault


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> i too believe that dogs should be on lead unless it is an offlead area. this way it is easier to keep all dogs, both fearful and not safe.
> 
> about letting a young pup offlead, many have said one that young is fine as they stay next to you, well having had alfie, the most overconfident dog from that age i would say its not true for everyone. the first time at a park he just went running to the extent of his longlead without a glance back at me!
> 
> i think its best to go case by case and not generalise and say every dog should be roaming free as it is not the way for every dog and owner out there.


Why on earth should a well trained dog be on the lead. Why should it be assumed that unless there is a big sign up saying your dog may be off the lead then it should be on the lead. Took about nannying!

Of course your pup ran to the end of its lead - all pups do that. They take their confidence from you down the lead. Let it off and it might still range about a bit but it wont clear off. You call it, you tap the ground, you look inviting and puppy comes back and has had its first recall lesson.
Keep it on the lead at that crucial time when it will come back and you have made life very difficult to ever get a good recall.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Yeah, that's the sort of thing that really makes me angry. In Ireland we had a field with a sign saying dogs must be kept leashed and literally just across the road was the off leash one. Would have been perfect for us if people had followed the rules. But they didn't, there were often dogs off leash on the on leash field and of course if they ran up to my dog and he kicked off I was the one at fault


yes and the attitude from people when you tell them this is an onlead park! some just say they wont put them on a lead but luckily there is a warden at the park who tells them to do it!

its not fair, people dont see it as ruining others walks or ability to have a good play.

if your dog was on his lead it isn't his fault.
alfie is not aggressive but very friendly and will go to any dog so its safer for everyone if he is onlead and the you can ask as you approach is the dog ok with others. it saves fights breaking out.

if only people would follow the rules and then everyones dog can have a fair game.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> yes and the attitude from people when you tell them this is an onlead park! some just say they wont put them on a lead but luckily there is a warden at the park who tells them to do it!
> 
> its not fair, people dont see it as ruining others walks or ability to have a good play.
> 
> ...


If I saw a sign up saying dogs were to be on lead I would assume dogs were not welcome and I would not be running around the place with my dog, I would be elsewhere.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> yes and the attitude from people when you tell them this is an onlead park! some just say they wont put them on a lead but luckily there is a warden at the park who tells them to do it!
> 
> its not fair, people dont see it as ruining others walks or ability to have a good play.
> 
> ...


If the dog is ok with others what do you do then?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Why on earth should a well trained dog be on the lead. Why should it be assumed that unless there is a big sign up saying your dog may be off the lead then it should be on the lead. Took about nannying!
> 
> Of course your pup ran to the end of its lead - all pups do that. They take their confidence from you down the lead. Let it off and it might still range about a bit but it wont clear off. You call it, you tap the ground, you look inviting and puppy comes back and has had its first recall lesson.
> Keep it on the lead at that crucial time when it will come back and you have made life very difficult to ever get a good recall.


he does recall and comes back to his name called or a whistle, he is actually very good at it, he is just a very brave dog and does not need to be near me at all times, also when he sees other dogs he is clear off and no recall at all will turn him away, for this reason he is on a longline lead.

not all dogs are the same, some can be distracted when running over, alfie cannot yet, we try all the time with recall and treats and distractions like his ball but when he wants to go and meet another dog nothing can bring him back.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

hawksport said:


> If the dog is ok with others what do you do then?


well he plays with the them, they usually smell each other and have a bit of a play. what most dogs do. dogs dont have to be offlead to interact with others all the time.

he goes in the enclosure with the other dogs he knows and play fetch etc.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> well he plays with the them, they usually smell each other and have a bit of a play. what most dogs do. dogs dont have to be offlead to interact with others all the time.
> 
> he goes in the enclosure with the other dogs he knows and play fetch etc.


Whenever I've seen on lead dogs playing the owners seem to spend most of their time trying to untangle them



emmaviolet said:


> not all dogs are the same, some can be distracted when running over, alfie cannot yet,


So why do you want those that can be recalled from distractions to be on lead?


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## Maistaff (Dec 27, 2009)

I really hate other people's dogs coming up to mine whilst they are on a lead - drives me insane as i find it very rude. 

I have my dogs off lead but when i see another dog then they go straight back on as i do not wish for them to interact with other dogs as i do not know these other dogs and i don't know their owners so therefore i do not trust and would rather be safe than sorry.

All too often i find owners are disrespectful to dog walkers with dogs on a lead as they have no idea why these dogs are on a lead. I have a friend with a rescue dog that she is working very hard with as he has some behavioural issues. For every step forward in progress she makes with him she can always count on someone with an off lead dog to undo all the hard work she has done as it comes bouncing over to hers all out of control.

My own young dog mirrors a lot of dogs and if a dog approaches her all on its toes, hackles up and not so friendly then she reacts to it. What makes it worse is the comment he/she only wants to play .

IMO i am all for dogs being off lead but i feel its only respectful for owners to put their dogs on a lead unless the first ask the owners of the other dog if interaction is allowed


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Whenever I've seen on lead dogs playing the owners seem to spend most of their time trying to untangle them
> 
> So why do you want those that can be recalled from distractions to be on lead?


because like others have said it is respectful.

how many people do you hear saying they are perfectly trained and then they wont come back.

there is never perfection anyway, a dog is always capable of being distracted no matter how well trained it is.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> because like others have said it is respectful.
> 
> how many people do you hear saying they are perfectly trained and then they wont come back.
> 
> there is never perfection anyway, a dog is always capable of being distracted no matter how well trained it is.


Isn't it respectful enough to not let an off lead dog approach another dog?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

My boys don't have the pleasure of going to nice parks or woods because off lead dogs tend to run up to my dogs while owners just carry on walking, this I find when out with Kali. Because of this Flynn and Marty are mainly street walked with occasional trips to public foot paths along farm fields. 

I am definitely of the opinion that if street walking and someone let's an off lead dog come up to my boys then they will have to deal with how they react. It's illegal to walk dogs in the street off lead round here and as I restrict the boys from parks I can't do more than I do already. Off lead street walking really annoys me but some people are a law unto themselves and the rest of us and our well behaved on lead dogs can go to hell as far as they're concerned as long as their dogs have everything! 

Remember that the kind of irresponsible folk I am talking about are not the kind who go on forums like this and many on here encounter such people on a regular basis judging by some of the threads we read!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

hawksport said:


> Isn't it respectful enough to not let an off lead dog approach another dog?


yes but how often does that happen, how many offlead dogs do approach onlead dogs everyday?

i dont mind dogs being offlead but i think it should be in certain areas.
everyday on the streets dogs are just running up to everyone all the time and you have no idea if they are friendly or aggressive or reactive. it puts owners who are trying to control their aggressive dogs in bad situations.

if there was rules as to when and where they could be off it could be a start to maybe fewer attacks and less frightened dogs and owners.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> yes but how often does that happen, how many offlead dogs do approach onlead dogs everyday?
> 
> i dont mind dogs being offlead but i think it should be in certain areas.
> everyday on the streets dogs are just running up to everyone all the time and you have no idea if they are friendly or aggressive or reactive. it puts owners who are trying to control their aggressive dogs in bad situations.
> ...


But I'm talking about dogs that are under control not dogs whose owners think they might be able to control them


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

I would much rather keep my friendly, well-trained dog on a lead where there are other dogs to avoid accidents or by my side off-lead. The pros of keeping the dog on the lead in uncertain situations and making the effort to socialise and stimulate the dog in other ways as well, outweigh the cons of having dogs roaming up to each other unsupervised, IMO. I've seen too many accidents! It only takes a little extra effort to socialise your dog in controlled circumstances, I think. If you would like your dogs to meet, ask permission first, it avoids many troubles!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Sarah1983 said:


> Why should other dogs walks be restricted? Believe me, I've been there with the on leash dog and off leash dogs approaching but no way do I want all dogs kept on leash. I avoided popular off leash areas in normal hours since I didn't believe other dogs walks should be restricted just coz mine was a nasty bugger.
> 
> The ones that made me angry were the ones with off leash dogs on the streets or in areas where dogs were supposed to be leashed.


Nobody is saying your dog can;t go off lead, but in designated areas it would be easier to manage...


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> yes but how often does that happen, how many offlead dogs do approach onlead dogs everyday?
> 
> i dont mind dogs being offlead but i think it should be in certain areas.
> everyday on the streets dogs are just running up to everyone all the time and you have no idea if they are friendly or aggressive or reactive. it puts owners who are trying to control their aggressive dogs in bad situations.
> ...


I think examples of this happening on the streets are a complete new can of worms.

All dogs should be on a lead whilst on streets ie near roads - It is the law so there are rules on this. But sadly not everyone will abide - If they did we woudnt need prisons 

Im getting the impression that areas obviously differ from each others.

Personally where I walk 90% of dogs are off lead. I try as much as I can to ensure I speak to an owner prior to the dogs playing but its not always possible (There dog running to Millie not the other way round :thumbup1. There are a few people I have noticed locally who have dogs they walk on lead 100% per cent of the time- If they enter the playing field il wander away from their direction, not because Millie will run off to greet their dogs but because I dont want them having to worry about Millie as they dont know her and I cant help but think they are leashed for a reason.

In the whole grand scheme of things its all about common sense - Not everyone has it but with beady eyes and confidence in yourself and your dog stressfree off lead walks are possible in the same fields / area as people walking dogs on leads.

Also I always try to be understanding of people with young dogs who bound over to 'play' ive been there, done that and got the apologetic t shirt a few times when Millie was younger!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

hawksport said:


> There are lots of people sick to death of irresponsible Staffy owners and in some areas well behaved ones are a rarity.
> Deed not lead


What on earth have staffies got to do with this debate???


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Blitz said:


> Why on earth should a well trained dog be on the lead. Why should it be assumed that unless there is a big sign up saying your dog may be off the lead then it should be on the lead. Took about nannying!
> 
> Of course your pup ran to the end of its lead - all pups do that. They take their confidence from you down the lead. Let it off and it might still range about a bit but it wont clear off. You call it, you tap the ground, you look inviting and puppy comes back and has had its first recall lesson.
> Keep it on the lead at that crucial time when it will come back and you have made life very difficult to ever get a good recall.


You sound as if you come from an era (no offence meant at all) whereby dogs were dogs and people were responsible.

Times have changed as has society, for the worse I believe.

If all owners had your degree of sensibility, and the general public in fact, then the country would be in a better place.

But they are not. And yes, it sounds extreme to have to "nanny" people like this. But the majority of people need it these days. Getting a dog is done on a whim, there is little training and we live in a culture of not taking responsibility. This makes for crap ownership.

So I for one would like to see far more regulations around dog control/ownership....


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> yes but how often does that happen, how many offlead dogs do approach onlead dogs everyday?
> 
> i dont mind dogs being offlead but i think it should be in certain areas.
> everyday on the streets dogs are just running up to everyone all the time and you have no idea if they are friendly or aggressive or reactive. it puts owners who are trying to control their aggressive dogs in bad situations.
> ...


While I agree with your overall statements, I cannot understand why an obedient dog should not be off lead.
Why should someone who has taught their dog manners in this human world they live in, be penalised for other idiots?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I personally think dogs who are trained well and are well behaved should be allowed off lead (except alongside roads). I have no problem with well behaved off lead dogs and have tons of good experiences with them. There are a few who let their dogs charge at other people and dogs and jump all over us, but I wouldn't say all dogs had to be on leads, because in my view, the badly behaved dogs are a minority.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> So I for one would like to see far more regulations around dog control/ownership....


Which would only be followed by those who are already responsible owners and therefore wouldn't make the blindest bit of difference at all.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> *yes but how often does that happen, how many offlead dogs do approach onlead dogs everyday?*
> i dont mind dogs being offlead but i think it should be in certain areas.
> everyday on the streets dogs are just running up to everyone all the time and you have no idea if they are friendly or aggressive or reactive. it puts owners who are trying to control their aggressive dogs in bad situations.
> 
> if there was rules as to when and where they could be off it could be a start to maybe fewer attacks and less frightened dogs and owners.


quite often i've found. youd be amazed at how many people let there dogs run up to sam while hes barking and growling and im struggling with him and they look and continue walking like they have no care in the world until i shout (more of a scream tbh) at them get your dog.

i let sammy of the elad once as there was no one about, so i thought, a guy had his two dogs one of which was a beautiful dobermann, sammy ran straight towards the poor dobe who was not best pleased. i was mortified. i couldnt apologise enough to the owner, who thankfully was understanding.

i don't care if dogs are onlead/offlead aslong as their happy and safe and the owners has some control whether it be a longline, lead, or just recall.


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Which would only be followed by those who are already responsible owners and therefore wouldn't make the blindest bit of difference at all.


Precisely, we dont need more legislation which restricts the responsible owner. For a change what we need in this country is well thought out legislation that rather then penalising everyone for the acts of the few, frees the responsible owner to enjoy their dog as they see fit, while coming down hard on the irresponsible.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Yeah, that's the sort of thing that really makes me angry. In Ireland we had a field with a sign saying dogs must be kept leashed and literally just across the road was the off leash one. Would have been perfect for us if people had followed the rules. But they didn't, there were often dogs off leash on the on leash field and of course if they ran up to my dog and he kicked off I was the one at fault


As you know, I'm now in the same place - the amount of people who use the onlead field for their offlead dogs is huge. Makes no sense as the offlead fields are secure (if the last people have bothered to close the gate at the top :mad5 as opposed to opening directly onto a road and much larger. All I can think is that the offlead fields are horrendously swampy at present meaning that I rarely meet anyone at all on there - they are all to selfish to get wet boots so they spoil the walks of people with dogs that need to be onlead instead .


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> yes but how often does that happen, how many offlead dogs do approach onlead dogs everyday?
> 
> i dont mind dogs being offlead but i think it should be in certain areas.
> everyday on the streets dogs are just running up to everyone all the time and you have no idea if they are friendly or aggressive or reactive. it puts owners who are trying to control their aggressive dogs in bad situations.
> ...


There are rules about when and where a dog can be off the lead The Road Traffic Act 1988 states that it is an offence to have a dog on a designated road without it being held on a lead. Local authorities may have similar bye-laws covering public areas.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogless said:


> As you know, I'm now in the same place - the amount of people who use the onlead field for their offlead dogs is huge. Makes no sense as the onlead fields are secure (if the last people have bothered to close the gate at the top :mad5 as opposed to opening directly onto a road and much larger. All I can think is that the offlead fields are horrendously swampy at present meaning that I rarely meet anyone at all on there - they are all to selfish to get wet boots so they spoil the walks of people with dogs that need to be onlead instead .


Yup, we used to take Rupert to the off leash field late at night because it was secure. At least as far as we could tell anyway. I gave up taking him to the on leash field because of so many people using it with off leash dogs. I know what you mean about the swampiness of the off leash field, I nearly lost a trainer multiple times on there last winter :lol:


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I think people have trouble understanding why your breed of dog would be confined to a lead...
> 
> Springers are high energy, inquisitive dogs who massively benefit from being off a lead so they can use their nose the way they were meant to.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I know your comments were not aimed at me, but just to note, that like the person they are aimed at, I have a very energetic and totally friendly dog. His recall is 98%.

But he is on a Flexi lead in all places bar one particular park.

Why? Because that 2% puts him at risk as he will go racing over to other dogs, some of which may be unfriendly/nervous/fearful etc.

Also because he will go racing over to on lead dogs and as so many people here have rightly noted, that's unfair on them.

So I totally empathise with the person to whom your remarks were addressed 

My dog still gets plenty of exercise and lots of fun off lead play at one specific park where he has a large group of dog mates


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spud the Bull Terrier said:


> Precisely, we dont need more legislation which restricts the responsible owner. For a change what we need in this country is well thought out legislation that rather then penalising everyone for the acts of the few, frees the responsible owner to enjoy their dog as they see fit, while coming down hard on the irresponsible.


I do think we now have legislation in place to deal with nearly all problems relating to dogs. Even dog on dog, but until it is marshaled more by employing more dog wardens and the police are willing to prosecute, nothing will come of all these laws made by politicians sitting on their bums in offices and not having a clue how it will be managed  
In the financial climate that we have, I fear we will just have to put up with the idiots and try and educate as many others as possible


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

TabithaJ said:


> Sorry, I know your comments were not aimed at me, but just to note, that like the person they are aimed at, I have a very energetic and totally friendly dog. His recall is 98%.
> 
> But he is on a Flexi lead in all places bar one particular park.
> 
> ...


and this to me means you are a responsible owner, not putting your dog or others in situations you cant control.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rona said:


> I do think we now have legislation in place to deal with nearly all problems relating to dogs. Even dog on dog, but until it is marshaled more by employing more dog wardens and the police are willing to prosecute, nothing will come of all these laws made by politicians sitting on their bums in offices and not having a clue how it will be managed
> In the financial climate that we have, I fear we will just have to put up with the idiots and try and educate as many others as possible


Exactly. Bit pointless making yet more laws that aren't enforced imo.


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## rottiemum (Apr 12, 2011)

Whew!!! Just read the whole thing...my eyes are pretty glazed over now...lol

So, to reply to the very first post:

Yes, I believe it is the fault of the off-lead dog's owner if they can't recall their dog and it gets bitten by the on-lead dog because it's run up to it.

Most people have their dogs on-lead for very good reasons, most of which have already been covered here (such as nervousness, aggression, old, infirm, etc.) - mine happens to be dog-reactive, meaning that she will react badly if the other dog seems like its going to attack or growls, etc. She will react in kind. 
I don't like when people let their off-lead dog run up to her when she is on-lead (varied reactions from her depending on the other dog's behaviour); it is rude.
She does get off-lead time and plenty of exercise - I won't get into the whole debate on that! 

If she's off-lead and I see another dog (on or off the lead) I will clip her lead back on (unless it is one of a very few that I know she is fine with - and we know the owners are fine with them playing). It's just the polite thing to do (especially as she is very big and it is scary having a large dog running and jumping at you) 

Also, the OP states _*Now typically I come from the opposing view, because I have a VERY social dog (I am a dog walker and he gets lots of walks) but he has only just recently started being more wary of going up to every dog. If he got bitten by someone who had a dog on lead (no muzzle) then I would not be very happy.*_
IMO, as a dog walker you should be more aware of the fact it is your responsibility if your dog gets bitten by an on-lead dog. You don't say how your VERY social dog greets others, but it sounds as though he's not being very polite, and you should recall him when you see an on-lead dog.

Sorry if I started rambling...


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

We now have a couple of parks with strict on lead rules in our area and the beach where the rules change with the season but there is one huge area of the beach that can be used all yr round for the dogs so thankfully we dog walkers do have a choice, I really don't know what I'd do if the laws changed and we weren't allowed to let dogs off leads anywhere which is something our council threatnd at one point, actually I do know, I would probably ignore it....a place near the beach was declared to be a dog walking area last year and a few weeks ago I got there to find the gate had been blocked off by 2 huge blocks of concrete ...so myself and another couple of the regular walkers found a gap in the fencing to get through, apparently they had closed it off because of the people who don't pick up their dogs poo....I do so I assumed the rules didn't apply to me


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

My dogs are both very sociable and like to play, so if a dog is on lead, smaller than Harvey or off lead but walking very quietly or closely to its owner, I pop both mine, or sometimes just harvey back on the least till we are past.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> What on earth have staffies got to do with this debate???


I just find it odd that someone who is against BSL and believes in deed not breed would support legislation that punishes dogs that do behave for the deeds of those that don't


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

hawksport said:


> I just find it odd that someone who is against BSL and believes in deed not breed would support legislation that punishes dogs that do behave for the deeds of those that don't


Having areas for dogs which are specifically for "off lead" dogs is not punishing anyone.

It's not the dogs who are the problem, it is the owners. And because people can't be responsible, then I think steps need to be taken.

I also disagree with off lead dogs in parks where small children are running around. Again, for people on the forum it isnt a problem, because they are responsible. But the amount of idiots I see allowing their dog to do what it wants is staggering.

For myself and many other people, it would be a relief to know that people would only have thier dogs off lead in designated areas. I would then be able to be able to walk anywhere within reason. As it is I have to be careful where I walk...

Is that fair??


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> Having areas for dogs which are specifically for "off lead" dogs is not punishing anyone.
> 
> It's not the dogs who are the problem, it is the owners. And because people can't be responsible, then I think steps need to be taken.
> 
> ...


Again, these irresponsible people would still let their dogs off leash so it would make absolutely no difference. The on leash dog area near me in Ireland was, and still is according to Dogless, frequented by off leash dogs despite the fact the off leash area is literally across the road. The park near my mum has a rule that dogs must be on leash. Take a guess at how many actually are.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Spud the Bull Terrier said:


> Precisely, we dont need more legislation which restricts the responsible owner. For a change what we need in this country is well thought out legislation that rather then penalising everyone for the acts of the few, frees the responsible owner to enjoy their dog as they see fit, while coming down hard on the irresponsible.


Thats the thing its the irresponsible that need regulating, youve no idea the ammount of obstacles that are put in your way when you report an aggressive dog with a clearly irresponsible owner.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> Thats the thing its the irresponsible that need regulating, youve no idea the ammount of obstacles that are put in your way when you report an aggressive dog with a clearly irresponsible owner.


This is true. It's like nobody wants to know. Well, not unless a child is seriously injured or killed anyway.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Out of curiosity, do most people walk in busy, built up areas and public parks?

Despite being almost completely deaf, i walk Alfie offlead 90% of the time. We can go weeks without running into other dog walkers or people in general, and i see it as a calculated risk.

What are on lead places, and off lead places?


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Out of curiosity, do most people walk in busy, built up areas and public parks?
> 
> Despite being almost completely deaf, i walk Alfie offlead 90% of the time. We can go weeks without running into other dog walkers or people in general, and i see it as a calculated risk.
> 
> What are on lead places, and off lead places?


I cut through parks / recreation grounds but only to get to remote fields / Barton hills.

If im in a very lazy mood then its a game of fetch and meander around the playing field but to be honest I prefer quiet walks with just me / Millie  There are so many fields / footpaths where I live theres no need to walk in areas where your constantly surrounded by other dogs :thumbup1:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> This is true. It's like nobody wants to know. Well, not unless a child is seriously injured or killed anyway.


That was my parting shot to the police 2 days ago........it could be a child next.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Out of curiosity, do most people walk in busy, built up areas and public parks?
> 
> Despite being almost completely deaf, i walk Alfie offlead 90% of the time. We can go weeks without running into other dog walkers or people in general, and i see it as a calculated risk.
> 
> What are on lead places, and off lead places?


Ime lucky where we walk 99% of the time the walker i see are all people and dog we know, other than idiot the other week,i still walk harvey off lead all the time and hes deaf, it actually amazed me just how many hand signals ive made over the years without realising it, i am training him to the whistle at the moment, hes got it but really he is so deaf if hes too far away he cant hear that now. so just rely on him looking up and seeing the signals, he charges off but not out of sight and hes not long before hes back


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Milliepoochie said:


> I cut through parks / recreation grounds but only to get to remote fields / Barton hills.
> 
> If im in a very lazy mood then its a game of fetch and meander around the playing field but to be honest I prefer quiet walks with just me / Millie  There are so many fields / footpaths where I live theres no need to walk in areas where your constantly surrounded by other dogs :thumbup1:


Im lucky like you, and live just minutes walk away from miles and miles of countryside, with just the odd village and road to contend with. Also lucky that Alfie is such a well behaved boy in regards to pretty much everything.

I do feel sorry sometimes for people who live in more densely population areas where is impossible to walk without running into other dog owners. I don't think my nerves could cope with that, and i do think id probably have mine on lead for the vast majority of the time if i did. There is always that worry other wise.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Im lucky like you, and live just minutes walk away from miles and miles of countryside, with just the odd village and road to contend with. Also lucky that Alfie is such a well behaved boy in regards to pretty much everything.
> 
> I do feel sorry sometimes for people who live in more densely population areas where is impossible to walk without running into other dog owners. I don't think my nerves could cope with that, and i do think id probably have mine on lead for the vast majority of the time if i did. There is always that worry other wise.


I really miss living where we used to for the ease of isolated walks - we could go on those daily and feel like the only people in the world ; here, although rural, I have to travel (only 15 - 20 mins or so) if I want to find one of those. There isn't much public access to land over here at all which is a shame and which I really, really miss (although I understand why!!) and where there is access it is usually where walkers, cyclists, runners and dog walkers congregate.

So....it has helped for socialisation purposes which is good; but I still seek out those isolated walks as they are what I am used to and enjoy the most.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Out of curiosity, do most people walk in busy, built up areas and public parks?


Mostly built up areas for me. Now I'm lucky enough to live near some really nice walking areas and am hoping I'll be able to make use of some of them with my next dog. No way I was going to risk taking a dog aggressive dog to them, it would have been asking for trouble.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Breaks my heart that Flynn and Marts can't go to the beautiful park just over the road and enjoy all the pleasures of the scent fest, ducks and woods  On the plus side though the Mals have made many human friends and they are firm favourites with the locals round here, so at least i know I'm not likely to get complaints about them and since Flynns ops and new lease of life I have made friends with people who I had never spoken to in 26 years of living here 
Amazing how a well behaved dog can gain it's owner respect and friendship from people you would not have thought cared.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Out of curiosity, do most people walk in busy, built up areas and public parks?
> 
> Despite being almost completely deaf, i walk Alfie offlead 90% of the time. We can go weeks without running into other dog walkers or people in general, and i see it as a calculated risk.
> 
> What are on lead places, and off lead places?


I try to go to quiet places. But if I think it's going to be busy then I'll walk them round the streets.

I'd love to find a walk where I'd b unlikely to see anyone z


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## cravensmum (Jun 28, 2010)

When mine are offlead we go to quiet places,where they may meet no other dogs or one or two,and those are off lead.

When they are on lead we go to places where there are usually lots of dogs,which both mine love,but as their recall is not 100% round other dogs they stay on a longline or lead,occassionally getting off to play with playful dogs.

Unless we are walking the streets  we very rarely meet on lead dogs where we go round here.

There is only one dog that we have met that is unfriendly,a Patterdale,that we all avoid. and he is kept on a lead.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

When I read some posts on this forum about the bad experiences with off lead dogs I'm glad in a way that I street walk the boys :thumbup1: in seven years of walking I have had not one bad experience and people have always been friendly and fussed the boys, not one negative comment in all that time. 

Perhaps I should count my blessings because the boys don't know they're missing lovely park walks, they get excited just to be going out regardless of whether it's in the street or somewhere nicer. 

At the end of the day there will always be selfish people who couldn't care less if their dog is being a pain to someone else so I'd rather steer clear of the likes of them and just enjoy my walks and chat to non doggy folk along the route - it's what we've always done and met lots of nice folk that way! 

Perhaps they're not missing out at all, I mean at least they have wonderful people skills which I suppose with the DDA is a good thing for their safety and if they did have a scrap with a dog it would be far better than them being aggressive to a person!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Malmum said:


> When I read some posts on this forum about the bad experiences with off lead dogs I'm glad in a way that I street walk the boys :thumbup1: in seven years of walking I have had not one bad experience and people have always been friendly and fussed the boys, not one negative comment in all that time.
> 
> Perhaps I should count my blessings because the boys don't know they're missing lovely park walks, they get excited just to be going out regardless of whether it's in the street or somewhere nicer.
> 
> ...


well that sounds lovely, dogs like what they are used to and being fussed over all the time can hardly be a bad thing!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Malmum said:


> When I read some posts on this forum about the bad experiences with off lead dogs I'm glad in a way that I street walk the boys :thumbup1: in seven years of walking I have had not one bad experience and people have always been friendly and fussed the boys, not one negative comment in all that time.


While I had at least one bad experience a week with off leash dogs while street walking. It's what made me give up walking Rupert at all except for really late at night, really early in the morning or in horrendous weather conditions. Guess it depends on the area


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> While I had at least one bad experience a week with off leash dogs while street walking. It's what made me give up walking Rupert at all except for really late at night, really early in the morning or in horrendous weather conditions. Guess it depends on the area


thats such a shame, those who cannot control the dog ruining it for others.

i do know of a rough collie breeder who had the dog at the park and a larger breed dog jumped on his back and broke it and killed him, just a dog jumping on another caused this, the dog was not under control and for this a dog looses his life!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Out of curiosity, do most people walk in busy, built up areas and public parks?
> 
> Despite being almost completely deaf, i walk Alfie offlead 90% of the time. We can go weeks without running into other dog walkers or people in general, and i see it as a calculated risk.
> 
> What are on lead places, and off lead places?


I try to a couple of times a week. You can't practice recalls from distractions if there are no distractions


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## Mrs White (Jul 18, 2011)

I feel so jealous of you lot with your civilized places to go with your dogs (whether that be on- or off-lead)

Here, even at midnight, I have to be super-vigilant and on edge, just to make sure nothing awful happens:mad5:

As I have written in previous posts, we have to contend with up to 60 roamers in the village where we live; everything from 2 lb'ers (toy Pinschers, I think) up to gigantic Spanish Mastiffs and we simply cannot allow our dogs to socialize because, well, when the other dogs are powerful Rotts, Pits, GSDs etc (and there's no bloody owner to be seen:frown2, there is no way we can allow them to mix. Consequently, our dogs aren't too keen on other dogs. 

Anyway, last night I decided to take my Mal/Husky for a midnight stroll and within 5 seconds we bumped into our neighbour who had her Yorky/Chi cross (all 3 lbs of it) in her arms. Upon seeing my wolf-sized dog straining at the lead she decides it's a good idea to drop it on the ground so it can run up and attempt to nip my dog's face. FFS:mad5: I drag him away, cursing the ignorant so-and-so...then we start ambling along nicely when we see a couple driving into their big property about 300 yards up the road. Their GSD (which has a rich history of biting people and animals) happens to be outside, sniffing about, and they very considerately lock their gates, leaving this big beast outside...right in our path

I pick a huge rock up and brace myself for the worst...but fortunately the dog doesn't do anything (unlike on a handful of occasions I have been told about by people I know)...and on and on I could go with at least 5 horrible anecdotes a day.

The truth is, having dogs round here is such hard work(at least for us lot who go about it properly). Some days I just can't contemplate getting them out, but then I think to myself it's the poor dogs who'll suffer, but even getting them up into the mountains doesn't guarantee a nice time nowadays because some folk go up there and let them off-lead, without any control whatsoever. 

I think this is why I have zero tolerance for off-lead dogs running amok; almost 6 years of suffering with such thoughtless, inconsiderate w*nkers has really diminished my understanding for anyone not controlling their dogs because so many of the feckers have made my life an absolute misery:mad5:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> thats such a shame, those who cannot control the dog ruining it for others.
> 
> i do know of a rough collie breeder who had the dog at the park and a larger breed dog jumped on his back and broke it and killed him, just a dog jumping on another caused this, the dog was not under control and for this a dog looses his life!


This is the sort of thing I'd _really_ worry about with a small dog or puppy. I've seen a Rottie kill a Peke in the same way but in that case the dogs were good friends and played together regularly, the Rottie ran over the Peke and broke his back. It certainly made me wary of Rupert and his paws around his small friends! I suppose it could happen to any size dog in reality though, a heavy dog jumping on their back at the wrong angle and snap, broken back.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

DOGPERSON said:


> Hi,
> 
> Recently I met a client that I had to re check my dog ideas about.
> 
> ...


I haven't read the whole thread.. But my opinion on this..

If I have my dog on the lead.. under control and you let your unleashed dog get in my dogs face even though I have advised my dog is dog aggressive.. And then My dog grabs your unleashed dog.. then Im afraid.. thats not my fault I have done what is needed in my power to prevent my dog from having ago at other dogs.. My dog is under control on its lead no free roaming naffing other people off by bugging them and there dogs..

Pet hate whilst out walking.. Is people who think that it is just ok to let there dogs go and sniff what or who ever.. 
There are dogs out there who are on leads because of bad recall dog aggression etc.. there are dogs that maybe extremely nervous of other dogs due to previous experience.. Why should you get annoyed with me when My dog is leashed and under better control than your own!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> This is the sort of thing I'd _really_ worry about with a small dog or puppy. I've seen a Rottie kill a Peke in the same way but in that case the dogs were good friends and played together regularly, the Rottie ran over the Peke and broke his back. It certainly made me wary of Rupert and his paws around his small friends! I suppose it could happen to any size dog in reality though, a heavy dog jumping on their back at the wrong angle and snap, broken back.


yes, id never ever heard of that until then so now im a bit weary of dogs bigger then alfie and keeping him under control as he is very playful and can get boisterous too, just a little incident and a dog can loose its life so quickly.


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## DOGPERSON (Nov 28, 2011)

equi said:


> I think everyone should HAVE to have their dog on a retractable lead, so they can roam but still be pulled in and controlled.


This is potentially the most absurd comment I have read in these forums. Dog socialization and dog health is all about allowing dogs to roam unhindered - and yes for owners to have some measure of recall. For them to sniff, test their order in the pack, roll in smells, you know animal instinct things.

Most cities have very few off lead dog parks, and to restrict any dog to a lead of any kind in these is very bad for the dogs. The owners should be more controlled than the dogs, but seriously, if you are in an off lead park, and have old clothes on, and a jumping dog is not trying to maul you to death, perhaps off lead parks are not for you?


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## DOGPERSON (Nov 28, 2011)

momentofmadness said:


> I haven't read the whole thread.. But my opinion on this..
> 
> If I have my dog on the lead.. under control and you let your unleashed dog get in my dogs face even though I have advised my dog is dog aggressive.. And then My dog grabs your unleashed dog.. then Im afraid.. thats not my fault I have done what is needed in my power to prevent my dog from having ago at other dogs.. My dog is under control on its lead no free roaming naffing other people off by bugging them and there dogs..
> 
> ...


I completely disagree, which is the right of free speech yes? You dont have your dog under control, by putting a lead on it. It sounds like you are restraining an aggressive dog in an off lead area and not putting a muzzle on it. You may as well be walking a lion and telling people its their fault if they get too close. A dog that is highly aggressive should be trained first to overcome their issues, then slowly trialed with muzzle on in off lead parks.

"people who think that it is just ok to let there dogs go and sniff what or who ever" yes its called off lead for a reason. This is the only area dogs get to be natural and not restrained by human buildings, meal times and all other unnatural things we subject dogs to. Non aggressive dogs naturally sniff things, this is how they get information about the world. Social dogs are not obsessive nor do they present a threat to other people or dogs.

I dont want to ban leashed dogs, but the leashed owners all seemed to absolve themselves of all responsibly and have this 'better than you' attitude when in reality they don't have the skill or effort to get their dog trained and rehabilitated. Blaming a social dog and dog owner is the biggest cop out ever.

I love all dogs, but seriously, let a dog be a dog or get out of the park.


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## Mici (Nov 13, 2011)

I think that if your dog doesn't have a good recall than it shoudn't be let off leash around other dogs. Either that or you can't blame the owner of a leashed dog that bites the intruder...When your dog gets bitten a couple of times I am sure he wont approach strange dogs anymore. But if he gets aggressive because of that he too will have to be leashed so ...

Why should a leashed dog who might be on a lead because it just had an operation or whatever other reason have to accept other peoples dogs jumping up one them?!

I let my dog off leash but I leash him if I see a onlead dog approaching - just out of respect for the other owner and their dog. If it happened that my dog should disobey me and run towards an onlead dog (before I have the time to put him on lead) and got bitten than the only one to blame in that situation would be me...
I am all for offlead dogs, they need exercise, but they also need control! I find that often people of friendly dogs are the worst when it comes to respecting other people and dogs. I don't care how friendly your dog is, it must also know how to behave.

I used to meet a very large and friendly black dog that came running towards me in full speed and has knocked me over a copule of times and my dog too. But once my dog had enough and he rolled him over and held him down by the neck (there was no blood as the dog immediately rolled over) - and low and behold - this dog never comes running to us again in full speed and now my dog even plays with him sometimes...

It is similar to when two people meet - it wouldn't be polite or acceptable if someone was pushing you around or jumping on you...Just like we have to learn respect, so do dogs...


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## DOGPERSON (Nov 28, 2011)

I think that if your dog doesn't have a good recall than it shoudn't be let off leash around other dogs. Really? Then I guess that goes for the 99% of people who own dogs, or arent dog trainers. I have reasonably good recall, but not 100% . I walk dogs for a living and I try and keep my pack together, but if they want to sniff or say hello to another dog, and i dont think it is a threat, I dont try and stop them.

If a dog is on a lead and looking menacing, most dogs understand not to approach. If they dont, then they are *learning*.

*you can't blame the owner of a leashed dog that bites the intruder yes you can, and in some councils your dog will be put down.* *

HAVING A DANGEROUS DOG, ON A LEAD ANYWHERE, THAT BITES A PERSON OR A DOG, IS DANGEROUS.* Seriously owners, get over yourself, get off your horse and listen to yourself. Yes its not guns that kill, its people. Its not dogs that bite, its stupid irresponsible owners who think simply putting a leash on an aggressive dog is doing their bit.

but I leash him if I see a onlead dog approaching Do you also pick your dog up and speak in a baby voice? Surely you have amazing 100% recall skills so you dont need to leash your dog.

This argument is absurd because you are talking about extremes in all cases. If my dog has had an operation where he cant pull stitches, I WOULD NOT TAKE HIM ON LEAD TO AN OFF LEAD DOG PARK and tempt him into wanting to play.

It seems that a lot of disciplinarians in here hate dogs having freedom. It is these right wing people who make other people give up taking their dogs to parks, and leave their dogs to rot in the back yard. *If you have had an incident with a big black dog running at you. Take it out with the dog or owner. Go to therapy or take a chill pill. *I am not after having aggressive jumping dogs off lead either. However leashed dogs are leashed for a reason, they are the problem, and the owners need to take genuine responsibility for their dog.

99% of dog problems are traced to lack of exercise and socialisation. This new utopia right wing on-lead owners are suggestion (dogs on lead at all times, or putting your dog on lead as soon as you approach another dog on lead, or anything else extremely restrictive, cumbersome and discussed by people who do not know dogs etc is ludicrous.

I dislike dogs that are aggressive on lead or off lead. But the majority of good dogs, should not be restricted because there are a minority of owners with aggressive dogs on lead that people have not bothered to rehabilitate.


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

I thought I'd 'dip into' this thread for a steer on what is appropriate for my lab pup Boo. To date, I have been taking her to places where we hardly ever meet other dogs (she meets other friends' dogs regularly in home-gardens) and allowing her to 75% of the walk off-leash. Her recall is good except when meeting other dogs at close range/no notice. She is friendly & submissive but still a boisterous pup wanting to play with any other dog. But from what I have read on this thread, I am now terrified that she will inevitably come across some rampaging canine beast and get attacked (through my own or another owner's fault) and end up (at the very least) permanently traumatised:crying::crying::crying: There is such a split of opnion on this subject that I am none the wiser  so, next time we go for a walk...

*she *is definitely staying in the car :sneaky2:


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

DOGPERSON said:


> I think that if your dog doesn't have a good recall than it shoudn't be let off leash around other dogs. Really? Then I guess that goes for the 99% of people who own dogs, or arent dog trainers. I have reasonably good recall, but not 100% . I walk dogs for a living and I try and keep my pack together, but if they want to sniff or say hello to another dog, and i dont think it is a threat, I dont try and stop them.
> 
> If a dog is on a lead and looking menacing, most dogs understand not to approach. If they dont, then they are *learning*.
> 
> ...


I'm really tired, im not sure if i've took this whole post the wrong way but

'However leashed dogs are leashed for a reason, they are the problem, and the owners need to take genuine responsibility for their dog.'

My sheps leashed for a reason, hes dog aggressive. I take full responsibility for ALL my dogs, the responsible thing regarding my shep is keeping him on lead. I would be a stupid and irresponsible owner if i let him of.

'stupid irresponsible owners who think simply putting a leash on an aggressive dog is doing their bit. '

Ok i've spoken to and see a behaviourist, attempted socialization walks listened to god knows how many pieces of advice, tried many different training techniques and you know what. me and my boy are happier when he's onlead and we go to places other dogs aren't and he can be on his longline. and thats all that matters to me, that HES happy.

3 out of 4 of my dogs i let offlead. I don't think it should matter if dogs are offlead/onlead, aslong as the individual dog and owner are happy and NOONE should try and make anyone feel bad for doing what they believe is right noone is getting hurt so what does it matter?

And just so you know i don't let any of mine sniff another dog or go up to one unless i've asked the owner first. Manners and all that.

It seems that a lot of disciplinarians in here hate dogs having freedom. It is these right wing people who make other people give up taking their dogs to parks, and leave their dogs to rot in the back yard.. seriously? noone is against dogs having freedom, aslong as their owners are responsible. sadly many of us have met a few that aren't thats ended up in nasty situations.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

It is difficult.

I avoid off-lead areas at peak times but I do go through a couple. Tess is off-lead, she has a good recall and walks well at heel off-lead so I can call her back and keep her under control. She's a friendly little dog with people and other dogs and looks cute and woolly so people generally like her.

Rex is a s*d with other dogs. He is always on lead and he is obedient. If a dog runs at him I can stop him biting usually with a voice command but by raising his nose with his black-dog halter if I have to. So far voice command has been enough. It's a pain saying "Please call your dog away." to other owners who generally can't control their dogs at all. They usually have to come and get their dog. They are usually very indignant and even more so when I point out that their dog is supposed to be under control even off-lead.

I could muzzle Rex, I suppose. He's muzzled when he works at the Dog Obedience Club off-lead. Seems unnecessary on-lead. He is also well capable of scaring/hurting a dog while wearing it and it means he can't wear his halter.

My pet HATE is off-lead dogs in anywhere but the off-lead park. In off-lead parks I'm alert and looking for trouble. Elsewhere I'm less vigilant and dogs can rush up when I don't see them. That's dangerous


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

If my dog is leashed, you should recall/leash yours. My dog will try to kill yours so if you have no control, I am without sympathy. Mine is very aggressive (seeing a behaviourist). I think it's stupid to allow your dog up to an on lead dog, many of whom are wary when leashed.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

When we are out and about in an area where we meet very few dogs, Terence is offlead and his recall is pretty good. I can usually call him away from most things (95% of the time, I'd say).
When we are in a park, he is on a longline. He loves other dogs and playing and will run towards them, if they are close enough for him to notice them. I don't see how it could possibly be acceptable for me to let Terence run riot in the park because "he is friendly". The general understanding is: If your dog is on a leash, you don't want other dogs to come and say hello. So, if you can't control your dog and call it away, that is YOUR problem not the problem of the owner with the onlead dog.

I am pretty sick and tired of people who have no regard for the other people in the park, who let their dog run around pestering other people and dogs and then get put out if their dog has been put in his place. :mad5:


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

DOGPERSON said:


> I walk dogs for a living and I try and keep my pack together, but if they want to sniff or say hello to another dog, and i dont think it is a threat, I dont try and stop them.


Do you look at the body language of the other dog to see if they are comfortable with your "pack" coming over to sniff? An unknown group of dogs coming over to a single dog can be intimidating and can be perceived as a threat!

If the dog they are approaching begins to circle away to try to avoid them can you/do you recall them then?

The reason i ask is because I have a dog who will simply circle away to avoid dogs if she feels uncomfortable, but has been chased and pinned down at which point she screams like she is being killed and releases her anal glands.

So I put her on the lead when I see groups of dogs to prevent this happening.

And before I'm accused of being over protective and making her nervous.
It was as a result of this attack she is this way.


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## Mici (Nov 13, 2011)

If a dog is on a lead and looking menacing, most dogs understand not to approach. If they don't, then they are *learning*.

So than you shouldn't worry about your dog getting bitten if he approaches an onlead dog and gets bitten. He will just learn to avoid them in the future 

*"you can't blame the owner of a leashed dog that bites the intruder" yes you can, and in some councils your dog will be put down.* *

If someone hurt me and I hit him back I should be punished?

Do you also pick your dog up and speak in a baby voice? Surely you have amazing 100% recall skills so you don't need to leash your dog.

It would be a little hard to do that as he weighs almost as much as I do. And yes, I have a 99,9% recall. And as said - if he should disobey me and got bitten it would be MY fault!

I WOULD NOT TAKE HIM ON LEAD TO AN OFF LEAD DOG PARK and tempt him into wanting to play.

Now where in the first post (I didn't read the whole thread) did you mention it was an offlead area of the park? We don't have such park areas where I live...

I don't blame the offlead dog - I sad my dog is offlead too! And I don't really have a problem with that black dog anymore, he just needed to learn some respect.

I don't like keeping dogs on lead either - that is why I train them to be obedient. And I have a breed that has a very bad reputation around here and is admittably harder to control than your average Golden retriever or GSD...I hate offlead dogs that are not in control as it is because of them that a lot of places don't allow dogs anymore!

Your dog should know how to behave on or off lead and yes, not everything is purfect and there will still occasionally be some problems...

Sorry, quoting didn't work properly but I am sure you will figure out what are my answers*


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I have several walks I like to go on. Sometimes we see loads of people, sometimes we see next to none. 

My dogs are offleash if it is safe to do so and only in the areas we walk. Benjie is muzzled due to his under-socialisation. But all my dogs have recall. Benjie is the strongest - he needs to be. Sadie's is almost perfect. And Louie is starting to get there (with the recalling before you've said hello to the dog) The places we walk - we can turn a corner and bump into anyone. I am vigilant in watching and I listen out more than I should - I've had to be due to Benjie. With Louie I have had to learn to relax and with Sadie - I can go a whole walk without having to speak to her - she's that easy. 

I always put my dogs back on leash when I see another dog - if I see it offlead I call out "Are they Ok?" I do trust most people but I trust my dogs better, I know that if a dog starts getting iffy, mine will move away (I tend to only take Benjie places where I know there won't be many dogs so he can have a good offlead run). 

But my general rule - mine onleash if we see another dog. Call out - if the dog is said to be friendly I let mine off, if not, wait until the dog has gone past then let mine off. It is common courtesy and I would expect the same back - however I have found I won't get that these days from most people.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

DOGPERSON said:


> I think that if your dog doesn't have a good recall than it shoudn't be let off leash around other dogs. Really? Then I guess that goes for the 99% of people who own dogs, or arent dog trainers. I have reasonably good recall, but not 100% . I walk dogs for a living and I try and keep my pack together, but if they want to sniff or say hello to another dog, and i dont think it is a threat, I dont try and stop them.


There used to be a dog walker where I walked from time to time who had a large number of dogs offlead - all friendly - but I (and most other walkers) used to avoid them when I could as they used to all come over together to sniff Kilo / say hello. He used to be fine with a quick sniff but used to get intimidated when they started to try and play etc as two of the dogs were very 'full on' and quite bullying. The dog walker couldn't call them all away and he used to hide between my knees from the more forceful pack members or run away, but used to get chased. One memorable morning, he got chased and ran into the woods with the dog walker chuckling away. Because he ran blindly he got confused and distressed and didn't know where he was. It took me ages to calm him down. I don't mind one or two dogs approaching at all, but a whole pack can be very intimidating.

Also, this experience with a friendly lab was not a good one: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/214118-those-who-say-friendly-dogs-can-do-no-harm.html and possibly led to the behaviour in the next link below.

I am lucky as Kilo will usually do nothing but play with or sometimes ignore any dog that approaches, which is still a pain if he is onlead and I am doing some training with him, but some approaching dogs do stress him out when they approach too fast and rudely. Another problem that I am working on caused by friendly dogs just approaching us when offlead or onlead - the owners of the other dogs get very annoyed with me indeed: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/219123-very-specific-problem.html

I am all for him playing and socialising - I like nothing better than seeing him tearing about with another dog / dogs and when we meet other dogs out and about it is nice to let them interact - but I do like to have some control over the interaction too.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Dogless said:


> There used to be a dog walker where I walked from time to time who had a large number of dogs offlead - all friendly - but I (and most other walkers) used to avoid them when I could as they used to all come over together to sniff Kilo / say hello. He used to be fine with a quick sniff but used to get intimidated when they started to try and play etc as two of the dogs were very 'full on' and quite bullying. The dog walker couldn't call them all away and he used to hide between my knees from the more forceful pack members or run away, but used to get chased. One memorable morning, he got chased and ran into the woods with the dog walker chuckling away. Because he ran blindly he got confused and distressed and didn't know where he was. It took me ages to calm him down. I don't mind one or two dogs approaching at all, but a whole pack can be very intimidating.
> 
> Also, this experience with a friendly lab was not a good one: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/214118-those-who-say-friendly-dogs-can-do-no-harm.html and possibly led to the behaviour in the next link below.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this!
People seem to think it's somehow weird if I don't appreciate their dog pouncing all over Terence. Now, Terence would do the exact same but I DON'T LET HIM. I think it's rude and potentially dangerous. I don't understand how blase some people are about their dog's behaviour. :frown2:


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## rottie (Jan 1, 2012)

DOGPERSON said:


> However leashed dogs are leashed for a reason, they are the problem, and the owners need to take genuine responsibility for their dog.


Yes, there is a reason...for example we are on a power-walk and I don't want to be disturb by uncontrolled off lead dogs. Or a want to train him to ignore other dogs for dog shows. Anyway, your "friendly dog" is disturbing and ruins our walk or training.

If he is off lead I'm happy if dogs came to play.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> I completely agree with this!
> People seem to think it's somehow weird if I don't appreciate their dog pouncing all over Terence. Now, Terence would do the exact same but I DON'T LET HIM. I think it's rude and potentially dangerous. I don't understand how blase some people are about their dog's behaviour. :frown2:


I do love meeting dogs as I said (we met and walked with two nice friendly dogs yesterday). One I had met before, so the woman and I just waved at each other and let the dogs approach each other - which took an age as they are both very cautious dogs . The other one I put him on the lead, they did the same, we both asked if they were OK offlead and then let them off. Just seems like courtesy.

I have of course made plenty of mistakes and Kilo has approached dogs when I don't want him to. But I have always apologised to the owner and ensured as best as I can that it won't happen again. There is a lady in a park that I go to who has a staffy who is very friendly, but the owner is terrified of other dogs. When a dog runs up to her dog (he is always onlead) she screams and bursts into tears and gets away as fast as she can.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

rottie said:


> Yes, there is a reason...for example we are on a power-walk and I don't want to be disturb by uncontrolled off lead dogs. Or a want to train him to ignore other dogs for dog shows. Anyway, your "friendly dog" is disturbing and ruins our walk or training.
> 
> If he is off lead I'm happy if dogs came to play.


I hate getting chased and tangled if I'm out running. Not only are we disturbed, but it can be dangerous too.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I do love meeting dogs as I said (we met and walked with two nice friendly dogs yesterday). One I had met before, so the woman and I just waved at each other and let the dogs approach each other - which took an age as they are both very cautious dogs . The other one I put him on the lead, they did the same, we both asked if they were OK offlead and then let them off. Just seems like courtesy.
> 
> I have of course made plenty of mistakes and Kilo has approached dogs when I don't want him to. But I have always apologised to the owner and ensured as best as I can that it won't happen again. There is a lady in a park that I go to who has a staffy who is very friendly, but the owner is terrified of other dogs. When a dog runs up to her dog (he is always onlead) she screams and bursts into tears and gets away as fast as she can.


Oh, we love meeting other dogs, too. But I equally like just going off on my own without having to fend off multiple over-friendly pooches.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't walk in off leash set areas because there's none here but even if there was I probarley wouldn't.

If your dog comes running up to mine while she's on lead and offers up awful dog manners like trying to hump her or throwing themselves at her to get her to play and she snaps it's YOUR fault.

My dog had issues when I adopted her and though hard work i've got her to accept most dogs but when IDIOTS like YOU who think it's okay to let your dog come over while she's on lead is what sets her back. How can I train my dog when Idiots owners allow their ill trained dogs to pester mine.

By law i'm in the right because I have A) issued you a warning my dog is not okay to approach and B) mine was under control on lead where as yours was not.

If you take a dog that has issues to an offlead park then yes, that may not be so smart but in places where there is an option of both, give some damn respect for other people who want to walk their dogs without being pestered.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottie said:


> Yes, there is a reason...for example we are on a power-walk and I don't want to be disturb by uncontrolled off lead dogs. Or a want to train him to ignore other dogs for dog shows. Anyway, your "friendly dog" is disturbing and ruins our walk or training.
> 
> If he is off lead I'm happy if dogs came to play.


i feel exactly the same! theres nothing more annoying when we are running our huskies in harness than some out of control dog bounding over and distracting them, and it usually ends up getting the lines all tangled up.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

IMO....

A dog that is off-lead, that runs over to other people or dogs because the owner can't or won't recal it, is by definition "out of control".

Not only is this unfair to people walking their dogs on lead for aggression reasons, it is also unfair to those trying to train, or run (as other posters have explained), and to dogs who may be fearful or even owners who may be fearful.

And by law for a dog to be deemed "dangerously out of control" it only needs to scare someone - it doesn't have to be aggressive. 

I'm sorry but your dog has no right to approach people if they don't want him to.

A dog that is on a lead is quite obviously under control. It can not possibly approach, harass, frighten or attack any other dog or person - unless they come to it.

And why on earth should you suggest that people with dogs on lead should walk elsewhere just becuase YOU can't / won't control your dog??? 
Should on-lead dogs be restricted to pounding the streets? Should they not be allowed to visit nice places where they can wak on soft ground, sniff, etc? And their owners - should they be forced to walk the dreary streets rather than enjoying the countryside or parks?

Sorry to be blunt but it sounds like someone failing to take responsibility for their own dog then blaming everyone else.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

With Freddie I always try to walk him quiet areas, he's always on his lead, he's muzzled, & he has a bright red lead (working with the theory of a red ribbon in tails of horses that kick ).
If a dog runs over to him (which they quite often do, despite me trying to block him and moving well into the side of the path) and he lunges/growls/whatever, in my eyes it's totally the other owners problem. 

If I went running up to a stranger and jumped on them/knocked them over/etc, I think the other person would be well within their rights to slap me and I'm pretty sure no one on this planet would defend my actions.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

I love seeing a dog roaming free; however, I do like to think that anyone who does let their dog go can get them back just as quickly as they let them go.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

astro2011 said:


> I love seeing a dog roaming free; however, I do like to think that anyone who does let their dog go can get them back just as quickly as they let them go.


Unfortunately, round here, no.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> Unfortunately, round here, no.


Its pretty much the same here, but I tend to not mind too much at the moment as trying to get Astro used to these situations. Later on when he is bigger I'll be having words lol.


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## Helbo (Sep 15, 2010)

Whose side am I on? Both

I think its fine to walk your dog offlead IF you are able to keep them under control. By this I mean not only being able to recall them back to you, but having the good manners and common sense to not let your dog greet another dog or person without permission. For their sake. For your protection. 

But walking your dog on a lead isn't much different. Again you need to have control of your dog and should still ask whether they can greet people or dogs.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I think the OP of this thread is in a slightly different position to the majority on this forum.
I'm not sure but I believe there may be more restriction on dog owners in Australia,. certainly in some areas anyway. 
The off lead areas are probably just that, the off lead areas....... most other areas the dogs would have to be on lead.

In this scenario, I think even I would be upset about an unfriendly dog being bought into the few areas where your dog could romp freely. 

I'm not sure about this so anyone in Australia please tell us how it is over there


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> I think the OP of this thread is in a slightly different position to the majority on this forum.
> I'm not sure but I believe there may be more restriction on dog owners in Australia,. certainly in some areas anyway.
> The off lead areas are probably just that, the off lead areas....... most other areas the dogs would have to be on lead.
> 
> ...


Ohh i didn't know the OP was in Australia.


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## genie04 (Mar 4, 2012)

If we are simply discussing dog walking etiquette I am definately on the side of keeping your dog on a lead if you cannot fully control it. This is especially so if you have an aggressive dog (for whatever reason that might be).

I own a nervous aggressive rescue dog, who was not socialised as a puppy. She is also a collie - and in this breed the combination of instincts often tend to further complicate such behavioural issues and can be difficult for the average owner to deal with.

However, I am also a dog trainer, so I have spent alot of time de-sensitizing her and socialising her to tolerate other dogs. This has taken me a great deal of time and patience through clicker training mainly. She is exceptionally well trained in the style of competition obedience, heelwork to music etc and through hard work she will now walk past other dogs either on or off leash calmly...the problems come when other people let their dogs rush in. Only the other day my dogs were on lead and a lady let her border terrier run UNDERNEATH my dog snarling and snapping (and it was not in play !!) Apart from anything else I almost went sprawling over it!!

What has often set me back in the past are other loose dogs, friendly or not, who have come steam rollering in, body barging and often barking, snapping and growling. This takes my dog well over her threshold and hampers my efforts.

Other people on the other hand, will keep their dogs walking at heel and often I stop and chat while their dog calmly waits and does not intefere with my collie...this is excellent training for her and the sort of good experience she needs in which to gain confidence and learn. This sort of encounter involves good dog managment and training practices as well as good manners on the part of owners and dogs !

I regard anything other than this as simply as bad manners. I do not let my dog go up to any dogs that are on lead. If a loose dog bit my dog while on the lead I would be extremely annoyed. It is bad enough when people leave their snapping dogs to bounce round me and my dogs (on lead) while they saunter off and ignore the situation ! These things happen from time to time, of course, but I encounter it on a daily basis...people just don't seem to bother interacting with their dogs while out walking.

Remember that the Dangerous Dogs Act requires all dog owners to keep their dog under proper control in public places and your dog does not need to bite someone for a court case to ensue. Someone only needs to _feel threatened by its behaviour._

This does not apply to dog to dog bites, however I do believe there would be some avenue of recompense should an off-lead dog bite my dog on the lead.

My dogs get plenty of off-lead, free running, but I only allow them to run with other dogs if the other owners are amenable; though my collie definately cannot do this, ever.

I have now started using a soft muzzle with my collie while walking on lead, not because I don't have enough control over her ( as I say, my problem really is with other people !), but this signals to other people to please keep their distance. It seems to have had an impact on other walkers so far and more importantly for me and my dog, this keeps my collie below her reactive threshold and in a less stressed state, which is my overall aim.

Do also bear in mind some dogs will not ever overcome aggression, particulalry where nervousness is at the root. Some dogs it is ingrained into the genetic make up and not just because of external things such as lack of socialisation. Often it is a combination of the two and in varying degrees and dependent on the breed/breeding of the dog in question. With alot of people it is about a management technique of keeping the dog stress free and out of harms way, but this cannot be acheived if people have no regard for others.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

The *vast* majority of Australians live in cities.

I live in Melbourne and all dogs are required to be on-lead except in designated off-lead areas. I've no direct knowledge of other cities but I'd bet it's the same. I've NEVER seen a loose dog in Sydney, Adelaide or Perth. Alice Springs and some of the outback places have packs of loose dogs.

The rules are enforced by the various local councils with varying degrees of efficiency. Ours is tough. Council by-laws officers photograph off-lead dogs and fine the owners. Repeat offenders (those photos) are heavily fined.

Dogs are not allowed in shops or on public transport unless they are guide dogs or similar.

Country dogs are either pets and in the house/fenced yard or they are working dogs, kept on chains.


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## DOGPERSON (Nov 28, 2011)

Perhaps I have been approaching this all wrong?

Lets see if I cant get everyone off side. Or at least to think for a moment.

You see I come from sunny Australia where many people are generally upbeat. We tend not to walk violent aggressive dogs on lead in off lead dog parks, because we are smart enough to know that we are looking for trouble if we do so. We dont wallow in a lot of self righteous story about the owner's rights as opposed to the dogs rights.

*There are so few off lead dog parks around here, that there is NO problem for people who must have their dogs on lead to walk elsewhere. *Very rarely do I see on-lead or off lead dogs cause problems in my park. If the owner has to get all upset every time a social dog approaches their dog, then wouldnt they be more comfortable taking away the problem (their dog).

You see in Australia, we respect other people but we are also easy going. Most of our dogs are social, because they are walked young (critical 3 - 5 mth period) or taken to training if they have a socialization issue. Owners dont want to risk paying the vet bill when their aggressive beast bites another dog in the park. See we think of other people and dogs, not just our right to walk a nasty dog on-lead and offend everyone else (the other 99% of dogs off lead).

No doubt you will also be aware that for many borderline social issue dogs, putting them on lead makes them want to protect you, or the restriction turns them aggressive. A dog I had to gather because it wanted to hunt rather than walk in the pack got vicious today towards a much larger dog. Off lead it does not show any specific aggression, but in this case leashing it could have gotten itself killed. As soon as I got to a less bushy area, I took him off lead again, and no more aggression was shown.

*Off lead walks are vital for a dogs health for a massive amount of reasons.* I cant believe that people in here are seriously suggesting that its just an owner's choice. that it makes no difference?!?! I get a lot of great information in here, in particular about raw diet plans, but it would appear that basic dog understanding and the desire to be right about on-lead walking in off lead parks, with an aggressive dog, is definitely one that a lot of people have no dog behavior idea about.

I guess we will have to just agree to be divided on this matter. I will just keep walking my dogs off lead, and recall them if I sense another dog is an issue on lead or the owner's tell me.* If your dog is aggressive on-lead or off lead, keep seeing trainers until you get one who knows what they are doing.* it is no excuse to restrict the rights of good social dogs, IN OFF LEAD parks.


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## rottie (Jan 1, 2012)

In this situation I have to agree with you. On an off lead park everybody should let their dogs off lead or at least not to be annoyed that dogs will approach 

And an aggressive dog shouldn't be without a muzzle in a off lead park and it should be for rehabilitation, not walking. An owner with an aggressive dog can go for walks elsewhere.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I think you misinderstand that most us were talking fom a UK point of view. where designated off lead parks are rare, because in the majority of places, parks and countryside the legislation simply states under close control and the choice of, on or off lead is left to the owner. 

Of course in a country/area where dogs are required to be onlead in all, but designated dog parks, it would be a ridiculous and irresponsible to bring a DA into such an area.

I'm truly thankful we have the freedom to walk our dogs offlead in some of the most beautiful and varied countryside in the world which allows them to run and sniff, but with this freedom comes responsibility, to have control over our dogs and for our walks to have no negative impact on other users with or without dogs, the wildlife, livestock or the environment itself. This means it is necessary to sometimes put your dog back on lead.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

There's a LOT to be said for the Pommy system. 

You can take dogs on public transport for a start. Some of my poor old patients struggle to get their dogs and cats to vets' clinics. They no longer drive, they can't always walk to the clinic, they can't use public transport and they struggle to get a taxi driver to take the animal (they don't have to). the only solution is an expensive home visit by the vet or families willing to transport them.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Just dipping into this thread here and just read the last few pages...

Like moonviolet has said, I don't think many people realised you were talking about specific off-lead dog parks.

Here in the UK, dog specific parks are very few and far between (I've only heard of two!).

I would be the first to agree with you that in a specific off-lead dog park you'd have to be pretty daft to take an on-lead dog aggressive dog there then have a go at anyone who's dog was off-lead!!


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## DOGPERSON (Nov 28, 2011)

yes, it got quite heated for a while in here.

in Australia (Melbourne specifically) I am lucky to live in the inner west, were they have a few off lead areas. Not a vast amount, but one large, high fenced bush land kind of place.

I took offence to comments in here, because I have come across people with very unsociable dogs both on lead and off, and even those on lead seem to get very upset if my very social dogs just want to be social with their dog. Note, their dogs are not muzzled and are not outwardly aggressive until a dog gets close/ lets call that sneaky aggressive.

I have also seen other dog walkers lift their knee rapidly to hurt approaching dogs on purpose rather than just protecting themselves. they seem to get joy out of watching dogs not in their pack yelp. Sure it will 'protect' that one person, but it can also damage a dogs feeling towards many other people, maybe having it get fearful of all approaching people and maybe wanting to bite someone for its own protection if a person approaches it. 

This is why I advocate off lead parks for social dogs and wonder why people with aggressive dogs on lead can claim such moral victories that all other dogs should have 100% recall etc. But is seems this argument is circular rather than any misunderstanding. Each to their own.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

OP You didn't answer my questions back on page 41 and I forgot to ask how many dogs are you walking at a time?

ETA: What i think you fail to see is if your group of dogs go over to a lone dog by force of numbers they can be intimidating and can make a perfectly well socialised dog feel unsure, is it ok if your "pack" come over to my dog and cause her to tuck her tail and submissively wee on it? Can you see that you could actually cause problems in other dogs?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

another point about off lead dogs with poor recall is what if they bother an old or infirm dog? 12 months ago one of my huskies injured her spine in a rough game with the others, one of them jumped on her back!...so now even when a playful looking dog comes over i get really anxious incase they jump all over her, Luna doesnt help she will try to instigate play, shes so out going and Loves other dogs, but i have to be careful with her now, just as i do at home , i certainly dont want her suffering like that again, so i'd be livid if an uncontrolled dog injured her back again...im not talking about dogs in dog parks here,i wouldnt even venture to a dogpark with an infirm dog.


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## em007 (Sep 29, 2009)

Not read all the comments but here's my input..
In an ideal world i would like to trust my dog a hundred percent with recall but even though most of the time she's really good there is always that one time... but why should my nice friendly dog most of the time have to stay on a lead because some idiot imo has a unfriendly dog that they've decided to walk in an open place like park... on the other hand if i was in a less public place then i feel it would be my fault if i didn't put her on a lead x there is like an unspoken rule here where if its very early morning or quite late in the evening a you see a dog on a lead then you know that dogs going to be not friendly so my dog defo goes on lead.. if u want to try and socialize your unfriendly dog in open area then i feel any responsible dog owner would have the dog muzzled aswell ...


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Started to read the whole thread but there's just too many posts and I don't have the time to read them all right now, what's up with all the flexi lead hate?


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

DOGPERSON said:


> I have also seen other dog walkers lift their knee rapidly to hurt approaching dogs on purpose rather than just protecting themselves. they seem to get joy out of watching dogs not in their pack yelp. Sure it will 'protect' that one person, but it can also damage a dogs feeling towards many other people, maybe having it get fearful of all approaching people and maybe wanting to bite someone for its own protection if a person approaches it.


I'm confused - do you let your dog(s) run up to random strangers? In my opinion people shouldn't have to protect themselves against strange dogs getting that close to them.

If your dog is close enough to someone that they can hurt them by just lifting their knee rapidly then your dog is close enough to them that they can feel threatened by your dog and have every right to protect themselves in that way.

I would have thought that even in a specified dog park you would still be expected to be in some control of your dog? and if not then should you really be letting them off lead and letting them risk getting hurt by annoying the wrong person?


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

HeartofClass said:


> Started to read the whole thread but there's just too many posts and I don't have the time to read them all right now, what's up with all the flexi lead hate?


No one?  Hate to be annoying but I'm gonna be buying a new lead this weekend and am still deciding, I've been suggested a flexi by multiple dog owners though so I'm kinda perlexed at the moment.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

HeartofClass said:


> No one?  Hate to be annoying but I'm gonna be buying a new lead this weekend and am still deciding, I've been suggested a flexi by multiple dog owners though so I'm kinda perlexed at the moment.


Why don't you start a new thread so that you get some answers? There are probably a few already if you search too .


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Why don't you start a new thread so that you get some answers? There are probably a few already if you search too .


Yeah I might, just thought I'd ask since I've noticed some strong anti-flexi opi ions on the first three pages or so, but no one explained it much


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

recently in the past few months we have been letting our 2 7 month old ddbs off lead practising there recall for both of them 
i have been really surprised they are both very good at coming back stopping and waiting ect 
To practice doing it dh and i stand opposite each other ( but quite away apart ) and practiced getting them both to run back and forth to us giving them treats each time so that they know coming back means a nice treat 

yesterday at the beach we had the more stuborn of the two out for a beach walk and she was doing fine untill she saw another dog my heart sank as this 40kilo puppy hurled it across the beach like Seb bloody Coe doing the 100 meters to this other dog not listening to me calling her back This was teh first time she had seem a dog when doing recall 

But amazingly she stopped dead about 10 foot from the dog and then walked up very nice and polite to have a sniff at the other dog with no problems 

by that time i had got over where she was to apologies to the other owner but she was very nice and said that is normally her apologising to other dog owners for the exact same thing 
this friendly approach and words from another dog walker gave me a lot more confidence in my dog in that she knows how to approach a dog properly when off lead 

with our other 2 bigger ddb we take them to a field where we have a perfect clear sight of whats around us and let them off lead but only so that we can let them run back and forth between us as we do with the pups but thats the only time they are off lead they are two big and powerfull to just amble around with us 10foot behind them chatting 

when we are walking them on lead if a dog of lead approaches them properly
ie quietly and stops and haves a sniff at them, they dont have a problem but if a dog comes running up to them without stopping they will attempt to snap and growl at them 
we keep them on the lead 99percent of the time because they would do an awfull lot of damage if not 
that why with our puppies we have been trying it from an early age


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

we had the exact thing today we were walking our 3 ddb 2 of which are 11stone plus and one is a puppy 8months 
all the dogs were on lead walking just fine and had walked past several off lead dogs and on lead dogs with no problems and then this little jack russel came rushing up to the older two full of excitement

to be fair the owner did call him back as soon as he saw our monsters on the path but it was to late and the dog took no notice at all and kept running around our dogs 
Our dogs started snapping and growling at the jr luckily dh is pretty strong and the dogs do listen to him when he tells them to stop

but in the end i had to grab the dog and hold on to him untill his owner arrived , just to make sure that my dogs dont get an early dinner 
he said that his dog keeps getting bullied by others but im not surprised as he dont know how to act around other dogs



RockRomantic said:


> quite often i've found. youd be amazed at how many people let there dogs run up to sam while hes barking and growling and im struggling with him and they look and continue walking like they have no care in the world until i shout (more of a scream tbh) at them get your dog.
> 
> i let sammy of the elad once as there was no one about, so i thought, a guy had his two dogs one of which was a beautiful dobermann, sammy ran straight towards the poor dobe who was not best pleased. i was mortified. i couldnt apologise enough to the owner, who thankfully was understanding.
> 
> i don't care if dogs are onlead/offlead aslong as their happy and safe and the owners has some control whether it be a longline, lead, or just recall.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

Oh, I just realized I haven't even discussed what this thread is actually about yet. 

Well, here's my two cents. Up until 2004, any dog that was found more than 40m away from his owner/200m away from his house/regardless of the distance chasing away wildlife, could legally be shot. And trust me, these things happened a lot. My country is filled with nature and woods. Many hunters would kill any dog that they happened to see off lead without hesitation, and if you were to walk your dogs close to a hunting area on lead, it'd be common to ran into a hunter who'd threaten to kill your dog if you wouldn't leave immediately, it'd also be common to find the tires of your car ripped if you left it somewhere close. Not all hunters were like that at all, but those who were did and said so many disgusting things it put a bad name to all hunters. 

Since 2004, it is illegal to kill dog under any circumstances, even if it's chasing deer. It's also against the law for your dog to be unleashed on any areas available for the public. Considering there no (off lead) dog parks exist here, that basically means the only place you can have your dog unleashed is on your own private land.

That said, hunters still kill dogs. Not nearly as often as before, but it happens, and it usually ends up in the news. Sometimes it's impossible to find out which hunter did it, and other times hunters are surprised they're not allowed to kill dogs anymore. People still walk their dogs and let them off lead in woody areas, as people don't bother enough to actually report someone. When people actually do report someone for it, in most cases it's because an owner allows his unneutered dog to roam around when bitches are in heat, since he/she can't deal with his yowling. 

That said, my personal opinion is, if you can control your dog, if you are able to (in the very most cases) recall him and prevent him from running up to strangers and their dogs, it's fine with me to have him off lead. Of course accidents will happen but as long as it's not on a regular basis, it's fine with me. I would gladly have my dog off lead but I simply cannot trust his recall.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

HeartofClass said:


> No one?  Hate to be annoying but I'm gonna be buying a new lead this weekend and am still deciding, I've been suggested a flexi by multiple dog owners though so I'm kinda perlexed at the moment.


I haven't read the thread, but to answer your question, flexi-leads are all very well in the right place. I used to use one all the time on my old mongrel because he would be gone for the rest of the day if he once got off his lead. But they should not be used near roads, even if locked, those locks cannot be 100% trusted especially with a large dog. People have ended up in the road because of flexi leads or the dog has.

Also if you are going to use one, be sure it is attached to a harness of some kind, not a collar. If the dog decides to run and come to the end of the flexi it could seriously damage his neck.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I haven't read the thread, but to answer your question, flexi-leads are all very well in the right place. I used to use one all the time on my old mongrel because he would be gone for the rest of the day if he once got off his lead. But they should not be used near roads, even if locked, those locks cannot be 100% trusted especially with a large dog. People have ended up in the road because of flexi leads or the dog has.
> 
> Also if you are going to use one, be sure it is attached to a harness of some kind, not a collar. If the dog decides to run and come to the end of the flexi it could seriously damage his neck.


I've always used a flexi (since he can't be trusted off lead) and in his almost 8 years of life of pulling like a train and trying to run up to strangers with all his power, my 40kg retriever has never managed to break a flexi lock. He's also never attempted to run on the road. We don't use a harness since all different kinds I could find were made of materials not appropriate for him as he has a VERY strong smell and they'd start to stink vile after two days or so.

But I completely understand your point, and better be safe than sorry, right?  It's a good thing I live just by the forest so we rarely ever walk elsewhere, nothing better than a long walk in the woods


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

HeartofClass said:


> I've always used a flexi (since he can't be trusted off lead) and in his almost 8 years of life of pulling like a train and trying to run up to strangers with all his power, my 40kg retriever has never managed to break a flexi lock. He's also never attempted to run on the road. We don't use a harness since all different kinds I could find were made of materials not appropriate for him as he has a VERY strong smell and they'd start to stink vile after two days or so.
> 
> But I completely understand your point, and better be safe than sorry, right?  It's a good thing I live just by the forest so we rarely ever walk elsewhere, nothing better than a long walk in the woods


Trouble is people can be stupid with them. Just the other week I nearly ran over a little dog who just came out from behind a hedge on the end of a flexi lead. As I said, always used one with Leo, as he was a first class escape artist, and I used one with Joshua on the heath when he was a puppy to stop him running too much.

I used to use one with Ferdie when I couldn't let him off lead till he was fixed, because he humped everything in sight, but I would change it for a normal lead before we got to the road as he could easily unlock it.

I think they are fine when used sensibly if you need them, but never along the pavement.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

As to initial question...as the dog op walks is truly ready to attack other dogs..i willput a muzzle onhim in areas that dogs are plenty...
I found out that often muzzle stops their "appetite" for other dogs...you would not want that big dog get his teeth on some small pup who just been friendly?

But I do not agree with big bouncy things falling atop of poor Scrip who just hates it, possibly his broken paw hurts!

lots of peeps here let their bulldogs and french bulls loose..they "just play"..but Scrip is really scared of them...and if they jump he snaps!!
yesterday I had to let him go to catch young Fbull bitch..her owner..young girl could not control the dog..scrip was getting squashed and was trying to bite!


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