# When to trust recall off lead?



## sesmo (Mar 6, 2016)

Hi Everyone,

first time post although longish time lurker.

My pup is almost 6 months old. He's been a very well behaved puppy, passed his Kennel Club Puppy Good Ciitzen and is still going to training classes for Bronze etc. His recall in the classes has always been great- even coming away from his "best friend" there straight away. 

At the moment where we walk, there is no secure area for me to let him go off lead. He does get off lead playtime in my garden and at my parents garden. Recall has been a little iffy in those gardens, but I've put that down familiarity with those spaces (he does come back, but only after sniffing whatever he has to sniff). I have a long line and he's always been good coming back to me when out on walks on it. Where my partner lives there is a park so we tried a short (10ft) off lead recall there last night while armed with high value treats. He was perfect. 

Obviously I want to set him up for a win and not failure. After recalling perfectly last night, I don't want make too bigger jump to just letting him off lead and expecting the same kind recall after he's been playing and when there are distractions. How do I progress it and know when to trust him? 

Many thanks in advance

Sarah

PS- I've read many threads on here and learnt sooo much. I think every other question I've had has been answered in some form or other


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm one of the brigade that lets the pup off lead on the first trip out, after training recall at home. At that age they stick to you like glue and they build up a habit of doing that. My 2 young ones been perfect, and are only ever slow to come back if they've chased a rabbit or squirrel in the woods and have gone out of earshot. When that happens, I just wait and they soon re-appear. But they are collies. I don't think I'd do it the same way with say, a scent hound or terrier. 

The only thing you can do is suck it and see. Pick a quiet time, perhaps with a long trailing line that you can stand on the end of if need be (on a harness, not a collar), go loaded with treats and with a hungry dog. Bear in mind that at 6 months he will be going into adolescence soon. With 'teenage' dogs, more with males than females, they can test you out and all the training goes out of the window whilst the hormones rage. That's one of the reasons I like to build up a good habit of sticking with me before that. Another thing you can do (and should be doing anyway) is to be the most fun, interesting thing on the planet for your dog, so lots of games, training, fun.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Burrowzig said:


> Another thing you can do (and should be doing anyway) is to be the most fun, interesting thing on the planet for your dog, so lots of games, training, fun.


This. Invaluable piece of advice. I don't know how many times I have got Muttly's focus onto me from a dog, rabbit, deer, whatever by being a nutter lol. Surprisingly he would rather chase me than them


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> I'm one of the brigade that lets the pup off lead on the first trip out, after training recall at home. At that age they stick to you like glue and they build up a habit of doing that. My 2 young ones been perfect, and are only ever slow to come back if they've chased a rabbit or squirrel in the woods and have gone out of earshot. When that happens, I just wait and they soon re-appear. But they are collies. I don't think I'd do it the same way with say, a scent hound or terrier.
> 
> The only thing you can do is suck it and see. Pick a quiet time, perhaps with a long trailing line that you can stand on the end of if need be (on a harness, not a collar), go loaded with treats and with a hungry dog. Bear in mind that at 6 months he will be going into adolescence soon. With 'teenage' dogs, more with males than females, they can test you out and all the training goes out of the window whilst the hormones rage. That's one of the reasons I like to build up a good habit of sticking with me before that. Another thing you can do (and should be doing anyway) is to be the most fun, interesting thing on the planet for your dog, so lots of games, training, fun.


I agree with the letting the pup off cos they stick like glue, so long as they do and don't get to practise running up to other dogs to play and ignore the owner - as so many of them have done round my way! 

The have trained their dogs beautifully to ignore them completely and be a total pain in the neck to the rest of us!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

It's not so much about "trust" as any dog can blow recalls for a multitude of reasons, but knowing your dog and it's limitations, and as you quite rightly said trying not to set them up for failure (which can be much easier said than done sometimes).

As above I also let my puppies off the lead on walks from day 1 which you presumably have not done. I think you have the right idea with continuing what you are doing - a long line, starting in an area with a low level of distraction preferably at a distance (big, open parks where you have clear visibility and can create space are great for this), then slowly increasing the distance over time.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I'm another fan of off lead from walk 1 - we took Timber to the beach at a quiet time of day, and the unfamiliarity of it all kept him close by us. But just wanted to add that if you call your dog back only to put the lead on, he can associate the recall with end of fun time and become more difficult to call back.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

JoanneF said:


> I'm another fan of off lead from walk 1 - we took Timber to the beach at a quiet time of day, and the unfamiliarity of it all kept him close by us. But just wanted to add that if you call your dog back only to put the lead on, he can associate the recall with end of fun time and become more difficult to call back.


Good point. You should do recalls that involve tons of treats and then send them off again. That way they're perfectly happy to recall, as the majority of the time it involves something lovely for them


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## ZiggyB (Mar 5, 2016)

I also started off-lead from walk 1 with my pup while he was(and still is) clingy, then call him back and give him treats for it, or even just to look at me. The beach is great when it's quiet as there's less scent distractions than the woods and its big and open so you can keep him in sight.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2016)

Another one who lets puppies off lead from day one. 
A mean but effective trick is to "hide" from the puppy (get the other dogs to cooperate with hiding also) and the pup quickly develops a habit of making sure he's paying attention to where everyone is or he's going to get left! 

With older dogs who aren't quite as worried about being left, it's more about knowing your dog. For example, some dogs are going to have a hard time recalling off a good play session, but are fine recalling off a good smell. Others it's the exact opposite. So, know your dog and what his distractions are, and plan from there


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Another one who lets puppies off lead from day one.
> A mean but effective trick is to "hide" from the puppy (get the other dogs to cooperate with hiding also) and the pup quickly develops a habit of making sure he's paying attention to where everyone is or he's going to get left!
> 
> With older dogs who aren't quite as worried about being left, it's more about knowing your dog. For example, some dogs are going to have a hard time recalling off a good play session, but are fine recalling off a good smell. Others it's the exact opposite. So, know your dog and what his distractions are, and plan from there


I hadn't really cottoned onto recall from play or smell being different, but when I think about it, Isla is more lax recalling from a good smell then other dogs


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

That is a good point Ouesi.
Muttly totally ignored me on the beach while playing with a Spaniel! But last night, he recalled easily from running rabbits! So yeah each situation can be different.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

On our our route round a lake yesterday we kept meeting up with other people walking their dogs and Isla was very good about calling away from them apart from one occasion. When I looked back to check I realised why. If it's more then one dog she becomes slightly apprehensive and her strategy is to stand very still, drop her ears and look in another direction. The only bit moving is a madly wagging tail. When I looked back she was staring at me as if to say 'I will come, just let these two have a sniff first then it will be alright'.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2016)

Yes, distractions are different to each dog and what may be a distraction for one dog may not be for another. 
That's the whole point of proofing. Because to a dog recall looks different from each perspective. Come to me when nothing else interesting is happening is a much different scenario than come to me when there is a major party going on and you have to leave it to come to me. 

For some dogs smells trump a chase, for others play sessions with new dogs trump play sessions with known dogs. It's all different and you have to get to know your dog and where their recall is most likely to fail and then plan accordingly.
And of course train for each scenario. We went through a bout of Bates not wanting to recall away from one particular dog who belongs to a friend. The two of them would basically blow us owners off. And these are both dogs who have fairly high levels of training, but the two of them together was a major bog off situation. Fortunately that friend is a dog trainer, so we set up the training and worked through it. We still don't trust them off lead together as much as we would off lead by themselves.


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## sesmo (Mar 6, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the replies. His main distraction at the moment seems to be poop, preferably rabbit but horse and chicken are also favourites (yuck!). He's only a small dog weighing just over 3kgs now and is quite wary of larger dogs- his default when one has bounded up to him is to hide behind me. If I ever have another puppy (can't do it again for a while- if ever ) I'll make sure that he/she gets off lead walking from day 1.

I think I'll continue to build on the recall in perfect situations off lead and try longline recall when there are other dogs around and rabbits have been leaving him tasty little presents. Will make sure I have a pocket full of something tasty (roast chicken at the moment). I was flipping ecstactic last night when he recalled perfectly for the first time in the wild. He got a large handful of chicken for that one


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

sesmo said:


> His main distraction at the moment seems to be poop,





sesmo said:


> Will make sure I have a pocket full of something tasty


Oh dear - I hope that doesn't turn out to be your answer!!!


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

JoanneF said:


> Oh dear - I hope that doesn't turn out to be your answer!!!


:Hilarious Eww, that would be Muttly's dream come true


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## LoopyL (Jun 16, 2015)

I found with my boy (when he was in his 'teenage' stage & suffering from selective deafness) that recalling to a tasty treat (kabanos sausage only used for recall) at various times thru walk & putting lead on for last time at different places (so he didn't anticipate end of walk & refuse to recall) worked fairly well


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Burrowzig said:


> I'm one of the brigade that lets the pup off lead on the first trip out, after training recall at home. At that age they stick to you like glue and they build up a habit of doing that. My 2 young ones been perfect, and are only ever slow to come back if they've chased a rabbit or squirrel in the woods and have gone out of earshot. When that happens, I just wait and they soon re-appear. But they are collies. I don't think I'd do it the same way with say, a scent hound or terrier.
> 
> The only thing you can do is suck it and see. Pick a quiet time, perhaps with a long trailing line that you can stand on the end of if need be (on a harness, not a collar), go loaded with treats and with a hungry dog. Bear in mind that at 6 months he will be going into adolescence soon. With 'teenage' dogs, more with males than females, they can test you out and all the training goes out of the window whilst the hormones rage. That's one of the reasons I like to build up a good habit of sticking with me before that. Another thing you can do (and should be doing anyway) is to be the most fun, interesting thing on the planet for your dog, so lots of games, training, fun.


Agree with all of that. Maybe not the out of earshot - they have very good hearing. Ours is a collie too and a rescueu dog. But after just a few weeks of ownership we let him off lead. Made us anxious to begin with but he was fine.

A little tale. We'd had him a few months. I had six weeks where I was away for pretty much all of the time every day. My dear wife had to walk him when I wasn't there. One day she had no lead. It was in my coat pocket and I was on my way to hospital for the day. She walked anyway and he was fine.

And you are right about the squirrels. When ours spots one he will chase it from tree to tree. Until he learns to climb, and he is working on that, they are safe. We have learned to just stroll on. He'll find us. and come galloping up.


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## WillowT (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm not one who let off lead from day 1. That thought filled me with dread. We had a long line...... 100 foot. Then we could make decisions regarding distance. We also played monkey in the middle . So me and my husband would be armed with treats and we would both go a distance from each other then take it in turns to call willow then reward. We built up to being at opposite ends of a smallish field and just laid the long line on the ground. Willow has been going off lead now for 4-5 months. We have control over her up to 30 feet from us. So we say stop and sit and she obeys. She is 16 months old now.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Repeat. Sorry mods.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

I have one of each, Hector I was far too protective and scared to let off when he was a tiny pup, his recall isn't great but he does tend to stay within a close range as I think he got so used to being on flexi that he thinks he has to stay within a 8 metre radius, Hilde went off lead from day one and her recall is pretty good and responsive,they are both completely deaf in the garden though and often blank me in favour of rabbit poop, but I just found the whole letting a tiny pup off lead terrifying.

Do you have any secure walking areas or fields you can hire near you @sesmo to practise recall in.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

But a bit more. We walk a lot - miles a day. Usually off the lead. Mostly, we have parks that are _fairly _secure for dogs and popular with dog walkers. We do the meet and greet thing - both the four leg and the two leg species. We, and he, have got to know quite a few characters.

We met a couple this evening, very charming and polite, but their big four year old dog was on a lead and clearly wanted to have a run around with ours. It did for a bit on a very long lead but it made me feel a bit bad that his range was limited. Made it a bit unfair on the dogs in my opinion. Their dogs, their choice of course. I have commented on this before. Should you worry that your dog won't come back to you when you form a bond with them with love and affection? I dunno how it is for others.

Ours is a little over two years old now,and has the exuberance of youth. He'll forrage in the forrest, seek squirrels, and take tennis balls from others when he can. 
It used to concern us when he dropped of sight or followed another.
"Max, here!" is all it takes. And sometimes not even that.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> But a bit more. We walk a lot - miles a day. Usually off the lead. Mostly, we have parks that are _fairly _secure for dogs and popular with dog walkers. We do the meet and greet thing - both the four leg and the two leg species. We, and he, have got to know quite a few characters.
> 
> We met a couple this evening, very charming and polite, but their big four year old dog was on a lead and clearly wanted to have a run around with ours. It did for a bit on a very long lead but it made me feel a bit bad that his range was limited. Made it a bit unfair on the dogs in my opinion. Their dogs, their choice of course. I have commented on this before. Should you worry that your dog won't come back to you when you form a bond with them with love and affection? I dunno how it is for others.
> 
> ...


I personally don't care if people "feel bad" for my dogs being on lead when we're out for a walk. They are a breed who have notoriously bad recall and I have already had one die who was run over, so thank you, but I'm going to keep these ones alive. I also strongly believe that if a dog cannot be recalled off another dog, it should not be off lead.

I just want to clarify, are you saying that people with dogs with bad recall haven't formed a strong enough bond with them?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Besoeker said:


> But a bit more. We walk a lot - miles a day. Usually off the lead. Mostly, we have parks that are _fairly _secure for dogs and popular with dog walkers. We do the meet and greet thing - both the four leg and the two leg species. We, and he, have got to know quite a few characters.
> 
> We met a couple this evening, very charming and polite, but their big four year old dog was on a lead and clearly wanted to have a run around with ours. It did for a bit on a very long lead but it made me feel a bit bad that his range was limited. Made it a bit unfair on the dogs in my opinion. Their dogs, their choice of course. I have commented on this before. Should you worry that your dog won't come back to you when you form a bond with them with love and affection? I dunno how it is for others.
> 
> ...


Recall isn't just about "a bond and affection" imo. My last dog was kept on a leash at all times in public as if he caught sight of prey then everything else ceased to exist. His recall was excellent 99% of the time but there was no way I could take that risk. He was also dog aggressive. Not a good candidate for off lead time at all yet many thought I was unfair to keep him on lead in _fairly_ secure areas. Fairly secure was in no way good enough. I had an excellent bond with Rupert but there was no way it was going to overcome his instincts, particularly as he was well practiced in killing other animals before I even got him.

It would concern me my dog taking balls from others since that can very easily cause a fight. Even my mild mannered Lab won't stand for that and other dogs will object far more strenuously than he does.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> Recall isn't just about "a bond and affection" imo. My last dog was kept on a leash at all times in public as if he caught sight of prey then everything else ceased to exist. His recall was excellent 99% of the time but there was no way I could take that risk. He was also dog aggressive. Not a good candidate for off lead time at all yet many thought I was unfair to keep him on lead in _fairly_ secure areas. Fairly secure was in no way good enough. I had an excellent bond with Rupert but there was no way it was going to overcome his instincts, particularly as he was well practiced in killing other animals before I even got him.


Maybe we got lucky. And maybe he did too. It a lot of ways, he has been a year in the making. It takes patience and can be a lot of work but, what you put in you get back many times over.



Sarah1983 said:


> It would concern me my dog taking balls from others since that can very easily cause a fight. Even my mild mannered Lab won't stand for that and other dogs will object far more strenuously than he does.


Not so much _from _other dogs. If the owner throws it, ours is fast and can often retrieve it first. Did you miss my comment "when he can"? He doesn't keep it and there has never been any acrimony.

We have a neighbour with a beautiful border collie. He, the neighbour, has bad legs so uses a ball slinger to exercise her. She and ours are good friends and, although she is half his size, she bosses him around at times. Wimmin for you................


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> I personally don't care if people "feel bad" for my dogs being on lead when we're out for a walk. They are a breed who have notoriously bad recall and I have already had one die who was run over,


I seem to have hit a nerve here. 
So, a couple of points. 
We don't want ours to be run over and I'm sorry that yours was.
If we are likely to encounter traffic. which is not very much of the time where we go, he goes on the lead. He obeys the "wait" and "cross" commands but it still isn't a risk I would take.
If we want him on the lead "Max, lead!" is all it takes. He trots back and sits down. 
He is just a little over two years old and we got him from a rescue centre about a year ago. He was a very shy fellow and, as I said above, it has taken time and effort to get him to the obiedent and loving chap he now is. And confidence in your dog and that you are doing the right thing.



MiffyMoo said:


> so thank you, but I'm going to keep these ones alive. I also strongly believe that if a dog cannot be recalled off another dog, it should not be off lead.


Perhaps the more pertinent question is why they have bad recall. I don't believe it is breed related. It took us a few weeks and a lot of trust for us to let ours off the lead for the first time. Had he run off and not come back naturally, we would have been devastated. The couple we met hadn't tried it in their in four years of ownership. So how could they possibly know how their dog would react?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Besoeker said:


> Maybe we got lucky. And maybe he did too. It a lot of ways, he has been a year in the making. It takes patience and can be a lot of work but, what you put in you get back many times over.


Ah of course, those whose dogs aren't perfectly well behaved simply haven't put the work in. If only it were really that simple.



> Not so much _from _other dogs. If the owner throws it, ours is fast and can often retrieve it first. Did you miss my comment "when he can"? He doesn't keep it and there has never been any acrimony.
> 
> We have a neighbour with a beautiful border collie. He, the neighbour, has bad legs so uses a ball slinger to exercise her. She and ours are good friends and, although she is half his size, she bosses him around at times. Wimmin for you................


Hell of a difference between playing ball with a dog you know and letting your dog join in a random dogs game with its owner. You have no idea how that dog (or owner for that matter) is going to react to your dog joining in. And they have no idea whether your dog is going to attack their dog over its own ball. Or run off and destroy it.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> Ah of course, those whose dogs aren't perfectly well behaved simply haven't put the work in. If only it were really that simple.


I grew upwith dogs. A whole bunch of them. I had my own particular dog. He was, like my current dog, a gentle fellow. His brother, on the other hand, was as mean as a snake and bit me when I visited the family who had him. I've had similar experiences with other dogs. My cousin was a dog trainer in the RAF. He , if anyone should have known dogs and how to treat them. He got a dog that had not been well treated and it bit me. He turned it around. Nature/nurture?



MiffyMoo said:


> Hell of a difference between playing ball with a dog you know and letting your dog join in a random dogs game with its owner. You have no idea how that dog (or owner for that matter) is going to react to your dog joining in. And they have no idea whether your dog is going to attack their dog over its own ball. Or run off and destroy it.


I think if you watch a dog, the signals are all there.

I'm sorry if I've upset you.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

But not all dogs CAN be turned around. Some dogs there's not really anything to turn around, they just need a home that's actually got a clue or is more suited to their needs or a bit of training put in. Others have serious behavioural issues that you can spend thousands of pounds and countless hours working to resolve and still not have one of those lovely take anywhere love everyone can be off lead everywhere dogs. Some dogs just can't bounce back from things, others bounce back from horrendous abuse with seemingly no problems at all. Nature plays its part as well as nurture. No amount of work was going to turn my badly bred, unsocialised, neurotic wreck into a bomb proof, take anywhere, confident dog. He needed careful management to have a reasonably good quality of life. My badly bred, unsocialised but stable dog on the other hand has needed only basic training put in to be that confident, take anywhere dog.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

I note your points but I respectfully disagree.
Cesar Milan seems to make it work.
Yes, I do realise that we see the best bits edited for television. But some his advice has worked for me.
Max tends to mooch around the kitchen when he smells food being cooked and can get in the way.
"Move!" or a nudge with the knee moves him out of the way.

As I said, Max was a very nervous chap when we first got him. He didn't take kindly to any other dogs. That took a while to sort out. Letting him off the lead was a big step in th


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> I don't believe it is breed related.


If breed is irrelevant why don't farmers use bloodhounds to herd, and why don't hunters use whippets to retrieve? 
And before anyone goes searching google for a herding bloodhound and a retrieving whippet, yes of course there are always outliers in each breed, and every dog is an individual. But breed traits are real too, and it's more than a little silly to pretend they don't matter. 
There are individuals within each breed that will show traits to a greater or lesser extent, but if good recall is a deal breaker, there are certainly breeds to avoid....


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> Cesar Milan seems to make it work.


Oh... Never mind.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> Cesar Milan seems to make it work.





ouesi said:


> Oh... Never mind.


I do believe that Ceaser Milan is Pet Forums Hilter in reference to Godwins Law just swap Hilter and Nazism for CM and Dominance Theory


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2016)

MontyMaude said:


> I do believe that Ceaser Milan is Pet Forums Hilter in reference to Godwins Law just swap Hilter and Nazism for CM and Dominance Theory


I think you may be on to something - time for an amendment to Godwin's Law


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I think you may be on to something - time for an amendment to Godwin's Law


We could rename it as Holly's Law


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2016)

MontyMaude said:


> We could rename it as Holly's Law


"Like" but made me sad too


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Oh... Never mind.


Yeah, enough said really.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> Ah of course, those whose dogs aren't perfectly well behaved simply haven't put the work in. If only it were really that simple.
> 
> Hell of a difference between playing ball with a dog you know and letting your dog join in a random dogs game with its owner. You have no idea how that dog (or owner for that matter) is going to react to your dog joining in. And they have no idea whether your dog is going to attack their dog over its own ball. Or run off and destroy it.


I would be furious if a strange dog came racing in and stole my dogs' ball. That dog would also be in danger of getting a bl**dy good telling off by Dex


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Heard today that someone's on lead greyhound was attacked by an off lead husky on the playing field locally a couple of weeks ago. The greyhound was apparently quite badly hurt 

I avoid loose dogs like the plague, but I shall be extra vigilant now!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> Heard today that someone's on lead greyhound was attacked by an off lead husky on the playing field locally a couple of weeks ago. The greyhound was apparently quite badly hurt
> 
> I avoid loose dogs like the plague, but I shall be extra vigilant now!


Ditto. I just never know how my two will react to a badly behaved dog barging in, so I tend to go off piste if I can to avoid. A couple of days ago an off leash BC growled at mine when he went past on a relatively narrow path; that was all Dex needed to break his sit. Thankfully I had shortened the lead right up, but I could feel his growl reverberate all the way up through it


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> If breed is irrelevant why don't farmers use bloodhounds to herd, and why don't hunters use whippets to retrieve?


Of course breeds have different capabilities and aptitudes. It would be silly to ignore that.. A St Bernard, for example, wouldn't be as adept at flushing out badgers as a Dachshund.
But that wasn't the point under discussion.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> Ditto. I just never know how my two will react to a badly behaved dog barging in, so I tend to go off piste if I can to avoid. A couple of days ago an off leash BC growled at mine when he went past on a relatively narrow path; that was all Dex needed to break his sit. Thankfully I had shortened the lead right up, but I could feel his growl reverberate all the way up through it


So they *both *growled?


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> Of course breeds have different capabilities and aptitudes. It would be silly to ignore that.. A St Bernard, for example, wouldn't be as adept at flushing out badgers as a Dachshund.
> But that wasn't the point under discussion.


It was when you claimed that breed doesn't contribute to bad recall.


Besoeker said:


> Perhaps the more pertinent question is why they have bad recall. I don't believe it is breed related.


When a breed's default behavior is to run, coupled with handler independence, it's a whole different ball game than a breed who's been bred for centuries to be handler dependent and default to laying down and waiting for directions.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> I would be furious if a strange dog came racing in and stole my dogs' ball. That dog would also be in danger of getting a bl**dy good telling off by Dex


Mine doesn't race in anywhere. He is just faster than most others and gets to the ball first. And he doesn't keep it. It's a game for him.
And has never led to any acrimony. If you know anything about dogs, you can read their body language.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Besoeker said:


> Mine doesn't race in anywhere. He is just faster than most others and gets to the ball first. And he doesn't keep it. It's a game for him.
> And has never led to any acrimony. If you know anything about dogs, you can read their body language.


Quite frankly, I don't want to be reading the body language of random dogs who've come and interrupted our game. And no, I don't appreciate them coming "joining in", it's not my job to entertain random peoples dogs for them.

And that's coming from the owner of a toy thief by the way.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> Mine doesn't race in anywhere. He is just faster than most others and gets to the ball first. And he doesn't keep it. It's a game for him.
> And has never led to any acrimony. If you know anything about dogs, you can read their body language.


If you knew anything about good manners whilst walking your dog, you would know to keep it away from strange dog's toys. I am out with my dogs, not to amuse yours. There is also absolutely nothing you can do about dog body language when it only becomes evident once your dog is in the firing line


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> It was when you claimed that breed doesn't contribute to bad recall.
> 
> When a breed's default behavior is to run, coupled with handler independence, it's a whole different ball game than a breed who's been bred for centuries to be handler dependent and default to laying down and waiting for directions.


Any breed may run. I don't believe that my current dog or those I've had in the past have been specifically bred to be handler dependent.
I'm not by any means claiming to be an expert. Just puting forward how it has been in my experience and that's what my opinion is based on.

If you don't agree, that's fine.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> Quite frankly, I don't want to be reading the body language of random dogs who've come and interrupted our game. And no, I don't appreciate them coming "joining in", it's not my job to entertain random peoples dogs for them.
> 
> And that's coming from the owner of a toy thief by the way.


Snap


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## ZiggyB (Mar 5, 2016)

I had a feeling cm was going to be mentioned...not gonna find many supporters here! 

When walking off lead with my pup I know he has good recall as long as there is a certain distance between other dogs/people, if I see dogs approaching close I put him on the lead as you don't know how the other dog will react to an overexcited bouncy puppy. 

My friend has a rescue husky who had been terribly abused, this dog will never be able to come off lead as she's so frightened, but at home, in the garden, on walks, a there's such a difference in her it's lovely to see.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> Any breed may run. I don't believe that my current dog or those I've had in the past have been specifically bred to be handler dependent.
> I'm not by any means claiming to be an expert. Just puting forward how it has been in my experience and that's what my opinion is based on.
> 
> If you don't agree, that's fine.


Wait, what? You don't believe border collies were bred to be handler dependent? 
Do you know what handler dependent means?


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> Ihere is also absolutely nothing you can do about dog body language when it only becomes evident once your dog is in the firing line


In my experience, it becomes apparent long before it becomes conflict. Even the dog, maybe especially the dog, senses that. Ours blanks dogs an people he somehow sees as unfrieldly or hostile yet knows who to trust. I've heard others make the same point.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Wait, what? You don't believe border collies were bred to be handler dependent?


I don't. They, like other breeds, herd with or without a handler. But I await your lecture/words of wisdom on that too.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> In my experience, it becomes apparent long before it becomes conflict. Even the dog, maybe especially the dog, senses that. Ours blanks dogs an people he somehow sees as unfrieldly or hostile yet knows who to trust. I've heard others make the same point.


I would say mine can be perfectly friendly until confronted by a bully, which is exactly what your dog is if he's stealing other dogs balls. Yes, I heard, he's not stealing, he's just faster. That's just semantics though, it's not his ball and he's taking it. You, as a responsible owner ought to put a stop to that behaviour, not defend it as being the other dog's problem for not being as fast


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> I don't. They, like other breeds, herd with or without a handler. But I await your lecture/words of wisdom on that too.


Okay, I don't think you and I are talking the same language when it comes to terms like handler dependent.

Basically teaching a collie a recall vs. a northern breed like a sibe a recall is not the same thing. Yes, both can be taught, yes, both can be proofed, but breed traits mean that the result will not necessarily be the same. It might be if the sibe is not very sibe-ish, and the collie is not very collie-ish, and of course the trainer's skills come in to play, but both breeds living up to their traits, with equal training skills, you will end up with very different results.

This is why cowboys don't herd cattle with bloodhounds while riding clydesdales. Breed traits matter.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> I would say mine can be perfectly friendly until confronted by a bully, which is exactly what your dog is i


With respect, that's utter nonsence. He is very socialised and gets along with others very well.

You would be hard pressed to find a dog with a gentler nature.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e39/Besoeker/Max/Max and friends_zpsvk26jhvr.jpg


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Okay, I don't think you and I are talking the same language when it comes to terms like handler dependent.
> 
> Basically teaching a collie a recall vs. a northern breed like a sibe a recall is not the same thing. Yes, both can be taught, yes, both can be proofed, but breed traits mean that the result will not necessarily be the same. It might be if the sibe is not very sibe-ish, and the collie is not very collie-ish, and of course the trainer's skills come in to play, but both breeds living up to their traits, with equal training skills, you will end up with very different results.
> 
> This is why cowboys don't herd cattle with bloodhounds while riding clydesdales. Breed traits matter.


I already made that point.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Besoeker said:


> So they *both *growled?


What difference does that make?

Surely the fact that the on leash dog was placed in a sit by its owner was indication enough for the owner of the loose dog to recall their dog and leash it?

Then they can keep a respectable distance between the two as they passed?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> With respect, that's utter nonsence. He is very socialised and gets along with others very well.
> 
> You would be hard pressed to find a dog with a gentler nature.
> 
> http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e39/Besoeker/Max/Max and friends_zpsvk26jhvr.jpg


That doesn't stop him being a bully. I think it was @ouesi who posted an article about it, and it made very interesting reading. If a child kept on stealing your children's toys, would you class it a bully or not? Would you find it as endearing as you seem to find your dog's behaviour?


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> A little tale. We'd had him a few months. I had six weeks where I was away for pretty much all of the time every day. My dear wife had to walk him when I wasn't there. One day she had no lead. It was in my coat pocket and I was on my way to hospital for the day. She walked anyway and he was fine.





Besoeker said:


> I already made that point.


was that where you said breed doesn't matter, or where you said collies weren't bred to be handler dependent?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Besoeker said:


> I seem to have hit a nerve here.
> So, a couple of points.
> We don't want ours to be run over and I'm sorry that yours was.
> If we are likely to encounter traffic. which is not very much of the time where we go, he goes on the lead. He obeys the "wait" and "cross" commands but it still isn't a risk I would take.
> ...


Trained many sled dogs, scent hounds and sight hounds have you?


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

MontyMaude said:


> I do believe that Ceaser Milan is Pet Forums Hilter in reference to Godwins Law just swap Hilter and Nazism for CM and Dominance Theory


Dogwin's Law.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

labradrk said:


> As above I also let my puppies off the lead on walks from day 1 which you presumably have not done. I think you have the right idea with continuing what you are doing - a long line, starting in an area with a low level of distraction preferably at a distance (big, open parks where you have clear visibility and can create space are great for this), then slowly increasing the distance over time.


Yep, this is what I would do in the OP'S situation. Just keep doing what you're doing, OP. When you're getting reliable recalls on the line with distractions over and over then you might feel ready to go off lead.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> Trained many sled dogs, scent hounds and sight hounds have you?


No. But that word trained makes my point more eloquent that I did,


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

This has been a very interesting debate and I will just add my little bit.

In my opinion recall and off lead dog behaviour is very much breed related. My first dog was a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. They were bred hundreds of years ago to be lap dogs and stay close to their owners. My CKCS never had a minutes recall training in the 10 years we had him and I can't remember him being very far from me ever. If I shouted his name he would be at my side, no treat needed.

My latest dog is a working cocker spaniel, bred to do one thing only. Hunt. I work tirelessly on keeping her close. If I lose concentration or stop to talk to another dog owner and she spots a bird or rabbit, she can be 100 yards away in seconds. She is work in progress.

As for the ball stealing, I would avoid that at all costs. One day your dog is going to arrive at the ball the same time as it's owner and you have got yourself a potential volatile situation. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't. And if that situation turns into a fight, your dog could get hurt and potentially mentally scared for life.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

tomo13 said:


> As for the ball stealing, I would avoid that at all costs. One day your dog is going to arrive at the ball the same time as it's owner and you have got yourself a potential volatile situation. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't. And if that situation turns into a fight, your dog could get hurt and potentially mentally scared for life.


Yes, I suppose that's a possibility. But he is nom-confrontational preferring to stay away from hostility so I am not greatly concerned about it.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> Yes, I suppose that's a possibility. But he is nom-confrontational preferring to stay away from hostility so I am not greatly concerned about it.


Well that's just plain daft. 
The likely outcome of a confrontation over a ball is that your dog will get badly hurt whether he is non confrontational or not. The upset dog who owns the ball is not going to take into consideration that your dog is a nice old chap, he's just going to work on the instinct of 'that dogs got my ball and I don't like that' and go in for an attack. Do you really want your dog getting badly hurt on your conscience just because your 'not greatly concerned'


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

:Blackeye


Besoeker said:


> Yes, I suppose that's a possibility. But he is nom-confrontational preferring to stay away from hostility so I am not greatly concerned about it.


Oh, that's alright then, non confrontational dogs never get attacked by other dogs:Blackeye


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> Any breed may run. I don't believe that my current dog or those I've had in the past have been specifically bred to be handler dependent.
> I'm not by any means claiming to be an expert. Just puting forward how it has been in my experience and that's what my opinion is based on.
> 
> If you don't agree, that's fine.


Border Collies aren't bred to be Handler dependent?

Why then, are the majority of dogs in the Obedience Ring at Crufts every year, Border Collies?

Why not Jack Russell Terriers?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> Yes, I suppose that's a possibility. But he is nom-confrontational preferring to stay away from hostility so I am not greatly concerned about it.


Glad you're not concerned. You can just go on your merry way then, all unconcerned, whilst your dog makes a nuisance of himself.

If you were playing tennis with someone, and I kept stepping in and catching the ball, would you see that as cute, as you clearly do your dog's habit of nicking balls from other dogs?

Nothing worse than a Space Invader in the park, coming clattering in to grab a ball you have thrown for YOUR dog.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Besoeker said:


> Yes, I suppose that's a possibility. But he is nom-confrontational preferring to stay away from hostility so I am not greatly concerned about it.


I'm alright Jack, sod the rest of you....


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Siskin said:


> Well that's just plain daft.
> The likely outcome of a confrontation over a ball is that your dog will get badly hurt whether he is non confrontational or not. The upset dog who owns the ball is not going to take into consideration that your dog is a nice old chap, he's just going to work on the instinct of 'that dogs got my ball and I don't like that' and go in for an attack. Do you really want your dog getting badly hurt on your conscience just because your 'not greatly concerned'


If he is non-confrontational there is no great likelihood of a confrontation, is there?
What don't you get about that simple point?


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> I'm alright Jack, sod the rest of you....


My posts being twisted - yet again.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> Glad you're not concerned. You can just go on your merry way then, all unconcerned, whilst your dog makes a nuisance of himself


Another assumption that is simply not justified.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> If he is non-confrontational there is no great likelihood of a confrontation, is there?
> What don't you get about that simple point?


Are you being deliberately obtuse?

A dog that takes exception to yours stealing his ball is not going to care whether your dog is non confrontational, it will juat attack and possibly hurt your dog.

Why can't you understand that simple point.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> Border Collies aren't bred to be Handler dependent?
> 
> Why then, are the majority of dogs in the Obedience Ring at Crufts every year, Border Collies?


Perhaps they are more intelligent and easier to train?
I've heard that claimed. I don't know what validity that claim has.


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> If he is non-confrontational there is no great likelihood of a confrontation, is there?
> What don't you get about that simple point?


This has got to be a wind up, surely.

But if you really are that nieve to believe that the fact that your dog is non confrontational will make a jot of difference if a dog takes offence to your dog stealing its ball you are going to be in for a shock (and unfortunately your dog is too)
After reading a few posts of yours in this thread and others, I am beginning to question whether you actually own a dog. You certainly don't seem to know very much about them.
I know one thing though, when a dog does lose its rag and has a go at yours, you will blame the owner of that dog when in reality the fault will be 100% yours.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

I have to say if any dog came up and took a toy from Bear there would be serious serious trouble.

ETA - 100% agree with the above poster. My big lad is not usually confrontational but will, and has done in the past, put a dog he deems inappropriate in behaviour in its place. Bear is by no stretch of the imagination a small dog, weighing in at nearly 12 stone hence why he is kept on the lead until I determine if another dog is a suitable playmate or not.

For me, that is common courtesy. I can't second guess the other dogs behaviour, whether they'll want such a large dog playing with them or whether they're intimidated by his size. By keeping him on the lead and introducing properly I am ensuring the safety of all involved.

That to me is more important than being offlead.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Siskin said:


> Are you being deliberately obtuse?
> 
> A dog that takes exception to yours stealing his ball is not going to care whether your dog is non confrontational, it will juat attack and possibly hurt your dog.
> 
> Why can't you understand that simple point.


Not at all obtuse.
I am being very direct. If my dog, or any other, *avoids* confrontational situations it is quite unlikely that there will be a confrontation. And, like many other dogs, he senses hostility in other dogs - and people - and avoids them.

Anyway, on a lighter note, this little girl kept following Max and biting his tail. They are local and have met a few times. Quite often Max lies down and the little one trots over his back, on his head, and nudges his cheeks. It's something of a testament to his gentle temperament that he puts up with it and no fuss. He might even like it.










After a while, the owner scooped up the little one. It wasn't giving up. So ten out of ten for tenacity but not a lot for recall..........


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> I have to say if any dog came up and took a toy from Bear there would be serious serious trouble.


Mine doesn't take toys from other dogs. If someone is throwing a ball or a stick he can usually get there quicker. He does give it up.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

tomo13 said:


> After reading a few posts of yours in this thread and others, I am beginning to question whether you actually own a dog.


Only this one:










That was after we put the boot polish on him to give him a nice shiny image........


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Besoeker said:


> Mine doesn't take toys from other dogs. If someone is throwing a ball or a stick he can usually get there quicker. He does give it up.


It matters not if he gives them up (although that is more preferable than keeping the toy)...the fact you *allow* your dog to "get there quicker" means by definition *your dog took another dogs toy*

YOUR DOG SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO "GET THERE QUICKER" WHEN IT ISN'T HIS TOY!

I have bolded the important points to make sure it is clear enough...although my guess is you are after another thread locked


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

@StormyThai You beat me to it  That'll teach me to do some late night quick obedience work :Hilarious

It wouldn't wash with Bear I'm afraid, he'd still class it as taking a toy.

Am I right in reading (had a quick skim through the rest of the thread) that a poster on here doesn't believe in breed-specific traits?!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Pappychi said:


> @StormyThai You beat me to it  That'll teach me to do some late night quick obedience work :Hilarious
> 
> It wouldn't wash with Bear I'm afraid, he'd still class it as taking a toy.
> 
> Am I right in reading (had a quick skim through the rest of the thread) that a poster on here doesn't believe in breed-specific traits?!


In all honesty it wouldn't be my dog that you (general you of course) would have to worry about...me on the other hand


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> In all honesty it wouldn't be my dog that you (general you of course) would have to worry about...me on the other hand


Haha well usually it isn't Bear nor Lucky people have to worry about. It's me! I think they often make the mistake that someone so little cannot have a big mouth... :Muted :Nailbiting


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Besoeker said:


> Mine doesn't take toys from other dogs. If someone is throwing a ball or a stick he can usually get there quicker. He does give it up.


It doesn't matter if your dog is 'non-confrontational', because by taking another dogs toy he could unwittingly be *creating* confrontation if he takes it from the wrong dog. By which point it is too late.

But quite aside from that, if I am throwing a ball for my dog, what the heck makes you think it's ok for you to allow your dog to chase after our ball? Even if he gives it up easily, he has still ruined our game. Why should we have to put up with that? If your dog likes to chase balls you should flippin well bring your own and stop him from annoying other people!


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> It matters not if he gives them up (although that is more preferable than keeping the toy)...the fact you *allow* your dog to "get there quicker" means by definition *your dog took another dogs toy*
> 
> YOUR DOG SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO "GET THERE QUICKER" WHEN IT ISN'T HIS TOY!
> 
> I have bolded the important points to make sure it is clear enough...although my guess is you are after another thread locked


OK. You had your rant at me..


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

magpie said:


> It doesn't matter if your dog is 'non-confrontational', because by taking another dogs toy he could unwittingly be *creating* confrontation if he takes it from the wrong dog.


Perhaps you should read what my posts actually say before responding to them.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

It wasn't a rant. I was just emphasizing the points that your were oblivious too


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> It wasn't a rant. I was just emphasizing the points that your were oblivious too


More invalid assumptions about me...........


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Besoeker said:


> Perhaps you should read what my posts actually say before responding to them.


I did, you seem to think that just because your dog is non-confrontational that there will never be an issue with him chasing after another dogs ball, completely disregarding the fact that the other dog may well be quite happy to be confrontational when it's ball is pinched from under it's nose.

I notice you didn't bother to comment on my other point


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> More invalid assumptions about me...........


You don't exactly help yourself do you?


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2016)

@Besoeker two questions:
Are you trying to get this thread locked as well?

Do you think you have anything to learn when it comes to dogs?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Besoeker said:


> More invalid assumptions about me...........


No...I am reading what you are posting...unless you already know that allowing your dog to take another dogs ball isn't acceptable...if that is the case then that does not look favorably on you.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

My dog is non confrontational and does his best to avoid trouble, if another dog threatens him he walks away. Doesn't mean all the dogs we encounter let him though. There have been several times he's had to resort to teeth and muscle and many more times where I've had to step in and see off a dog looking for trouble.

And with my collie it wouldn't have mattered how "non confrontational" a dog was, if it took his ball there'd be hell to pay. Poor Spen just looks devastated if another dog gets to his toy first and won't give it up. Shadow on the other hand would take it back even if it meant a fight.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> No. But that word trained makes my point more eloquent that I did,


I saw this and just had to reply.

Do you honestly think a bit of training is going to outweigh often hundreds of years worth of instincts? Instincts that have been specifically bred into a breed so it can fulfil the job it was specifically bred to do? Do you think a borzoi is not going to chase a squirrel cause you said no? A westie isn't going to a kill a bunny because someone said no?

You can't train out instincts, you learnt to work with them.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

magpie said:


> I did, you seem to think that just because your dog is non-confrontational that there will never be an issue with him chasing after another dogs ball, completely disregarding the fact that the other dog may well be quite happy to be confrontational when it's ball is pinched from under it's nose.


Under its nose is yet another invalid and illogical assumption.
If Max gets there quicker it wouldn't be under the other dog's nose would it?
Happy and confrontational? Those seem to me to be mutually exclusive attributes.
And, just for the record, I did accept, several posts back, that confrontation was a possibility. So please don't claim that I said it would never be an issue.

A polite request. If you want to respond to my posts I welcome that. But respond to what I posted rather than what you think I posted.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> I saw this and just had to reply.
> 
> Do you honestly think a *bit of training* is going to outweigh often hundreds of years worth of instincts?


No I don't. I think it takes a lot more than a "bit of training" .


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> No I don't. I think it takes a lot more than a "bit of training" .


Okay, I'll bite.
How would you go about training prey drive out of a sighthound and teaching a recall?


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> No I don't. I think it takes a lot more than a "bit of training" .


You're dancing round the point by being pedantic with language.

I stand by what I previously said, you cannot out train instincts. You learn to work with them.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Besoeker said:


> Under its nose is yet another invalid and illogical assumption.
> If Max gets there quicker it wouldn't be under the other dog's nose would it?
> Happy and confrontational? Those seem to me to be mutually exclusive attributes.
> And, just for the record, I did accept, several posts back, that confrontation was a possibility. So please don't claim that I said it would never be an issue.
> ...


'Under it's nose' is just a phrase, I clearly didn't mean it literally. Although if both dogs are chasing the same ball there is a good chance they will be very close to one another. Picking at my choice of words is really very petty.

You said if a dog is non-confrontational and avoids confrontational situations then it is unlikely that there will be a confrontation. What I said is that by taking another dogs ball your dog is creating a confrontational situation. Then you claimed that I was reading your posts incorrectly.

And yet again you won't address the issue that you simply shouldn't be allowing your dog to chase other dogs balls.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Okay, I'll bite.
> How would you go about training prey drive out of a sighthound and teaching a recall?


 Or indeed how would he go about training his dog not to chase joggers, cyclists and park maintenance vehicles


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Or indeed how would he go about training his dog not to chase joggers, cyclists and park maintenance vehicles


Or, to not tear off in the park, and beat another dog to a ball thrown for it by it's owner?

He isn't training anything. He's said if his dog goes off after a squirrel, he just walks on and the dog will reappear at some point.

Lazy springs to mind.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Or indeed how would he go about training his dog not to chase joggers, cyclists and park maintenance vehicles


Funny how he goes strangely silent when I asked that huh?
It's okay... I wasn't holding my breath 

I almost feel bad for @Besoeker - almost.

It's like popping a pimple, you know you should just leave it alone and let it go away on it's own, you know messing with it is going to hurt, and will probably get far more bloated and irritated if you mess with it, but it's just sitting there annoying you and you just can't leave it alone...


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Okay, I'll bite.
> How would you go about training prey drive out of a sighthound and teaching a recall?


I've never had a sighthound so I'm not the right person to answer that question.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> Or, to not tear off in the park, and beat another dog to a ball thrown for it by it's owner?
> 
> He isn't training anything. He's said if his dog goes off after a squirrel, he just walks on and the dog will reappear at some point.
> 
> Lazy springs to mind.


Given that I walk between six and ten miles a day........


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

magpie said:


> 'Under it's nose' is just a phrase, I clearly didn't mean it literally. Although if both dogs are chasing the same ball there is a good chance they will be very close to one another. Picking at my choice of words is really very petty.
> 
> You said if a dog is non-confrontational and avoids confrontational situations then it is unlikely that there will be a confrontation. What I said is that by taking another dogs ball your dog is creating a confrontational situation. Then you claimed that I was reading your posts incorrectly.
> 
> And yet again you won't address the issue that you simply shouldn't be allowing your dog to chase other dogs balls.


OK. I shouldn't. Mea culpa.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Besoeker said:


> Given that I walk between six and ten miles a day........


Do you want a medal or something?
Many people walk that a day AND train their dog to not chase things..so I am not sure why walking that distance is relevant to your dog lacking training skills?

Not that I expect an actual coherent answer tho.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> Do you want a medal or something?
> Many people walk that a day AND train their dog to not chase things..so I am not sure why walking that distance is relevant to your dog lacking training skills?
> 
> Not that I expect an actual coherent answer tho.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> Do you want a medal or something?
> Many people walk that a day AND train their dog to not chase things..so I am not sure why walking that distance is relevant to your dog lacking training skills?
> 
> Not that I expect an actual coherent answer tho.


Why should you expect a response at all to a rude and irrelevant comment?

My point was in response to this in case you missed it:

"Lazy springs to mind."

Besoeker bashing seems to be a favoured topic here. No justification required.


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> Why should you expect a response at all to a rude and irrelevant comment?
> 
> My point was in response to this in case you missed it:
> 
> ...


Like I have already said, you are not helping yourself on here.
You obviously lack understanding of canine behaviour, which is not a problem in itself because many of us are not experts. BUT your reluctance to accept what is glaringly obvious (your dogs behaviour can, and will, cause problems) can come across as arrogant.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

tomo13 said:


> Like I have already said, you are not helping yourself on here.
> You obviously lack understanding of canine behaviour, which is not a problem in itself because many of us are not experts. BUT your reluctance to accept what is glaringly obvious (your dogs behaviour can, and will, cause problems) can come across as arrogant.


Yet more personal comments with no sound basis.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

So you can't say how to train a sighthound because you've never done it but you feel qualified to judge those who own them and other breeds/individuals who can be difficult to get a truly reliable recall with.


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> Yet more personal comments with no sound basis.


There are 6 pages of sound basis.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Besoeker said:


> Why should you expect a response at all to a rude and irrelevant comment?
> 
> My point was in response to this in case you missed it:
> 
> ...


Look when you joined the forum you were welcomed and your dog was admired. No one had a beef with you until you started posting comments that demonstrated your complete lack of understanding about why some dogs have to be kept on a lead. Again we all understand that unless you have experience of those issues you might not understand them nor even have given them much thought before which is fine but what isn't fine is when other people with more experience than you go to the trouble of explaining the reasons some dogs are on a lead or why it isn't appropriate for your dog to interact with them and you ignore it. Worse still you insist its all about training and take a holier than though attitude about how relaxed and under control your dog looks in the photographs you have picked out to post whereas mine (who is working on a line tracking) doesn't. Even when we take the time and effort to explain things like tracking to you we still get comments about straining on leads which again demonstrates your lack of understanding about tracking which again would be fine if you just said "Oh sorry, I didn't know that" but you keep on digging. This is made particularly hard to take by your comments about your own dog on another forum stating he chases cyclists, joggers and park maintenance trucks  and expressing your opinion that "If you can't let your dog run free, why bother having one". I hope you never have the misfortune to experience a bad injury to your dog that requires him to be walked for months on a short lead and avoid playing with other dogs but if you do I also hope the dog owners you meet are more understanding than you clearly are.


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## Caribou (Jan 27, 2016)

Ugh, don't feed the troll guys. They come back.

To bring the topic back to helping OP with recall, it's probably been said but I'll say it again - if you train in areas of gradually increasing distraction (starting in a low distraction area and slowly increasing it) you will build up the reliability of your pup's recall and your own confidence in making the decision to let him off lead. You *may *also eventually reach a level of distractions where you know he simply can't go off lead because, from experience, you will know he blows recall at that 'level'.

You'll then be able to make the judgement call wherever you go whether or not it's safe to leave him off. I know with my dog (he's a sight hound cross retriever) that in certain situations he'll be fine, in others, depending on the level and type of distractions I know I can't trust him to come back if I let him off lead, so I make a decision and deal with it. Perhaps one day when he's older he'll nail that as well (he's already 3, so I don't hold out much hope that I'll ever be able to let him off lead in a field of bunnies and expect a reliable recall - luckily we don't find too many fields full of bunnies :Joyful )


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Besoeker said:


> Besoeker bashing seems to be a favoured topic here. No justification required.


You can't expect to wander through life without being called out for stupid comments...forums are the same!
There is no bashing...there is only complete exasperation at the fact you are either intentionally ignoring relevant info, or are too stubborn and obtuse to see how *your* posts can antagonise people...the lazy comment wasn't in reference to the amount you walk, it was in reference to you not training your dog to not "get there first" with other dogs toys...

Your whole attitude here is the very reason I do not take my dog to busy areas...not because he isn't well trained (I have shown a video that proves this...you just show pictures that doesn't prove a thing)..but because people think it is their dogs god given right to do as they wish so long as "they" don't bite, it's all A-OK


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Caribou said:


> Ugh, don't feed the troll guys. They come back.)


Ah but there may be others reading who WILL take on board what's being said and maybe think twice about what they let their dog do or where they let them off lead


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Besoeker said:


> If he is non-confrontational there is no great likelihood of a confrontation, is there?
> What don't you get about that simple point?


But, you have no idea what the other dog do will do, which may change everything.

My lurcher is 100% friendly and submissive. If a loose dog approaches while on lead he will happily exchange a greeting. He would then prefer the other dog to go on his way. If it doesn't Jack's response would be submit. (I protect him from this, I might add).

This, I think prevents any escalation because the other dog never feels threatened and Jack's body language is all calming signals, etc.

Conversely, his BFF greyhound is scared of other dogs and although she might tolerate a VERY brief and obviously friendly approach from another dog she could very quickly feel overwhelmed and threatened, especially if the dog was very rude.

She would quite likely tell the dog in her own, no uncertain terms, to back off. If that dog did, then no harm done. However, if that dog took exception to her reaction then all hell could kick off.

Recently another fearful greyhound was badly injured by a loose husky. Perhaps that is exactly what happened there?

I wonder if the outcome would have been different if the husky had encountered my submissive, non confrontational lurcher?

Our own dog may not be confrontational, but the other dog might.


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## Caribou (Jan 27, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> Ah but there may be others reading who WILL take on board what's being said and maybe think twice about what they let their dog do or where they let them off lead


You're right, definitely  - I just think when it gets to 4 pages of troll-baiting then it's kinda not really helping anyone any longer and it's just giving him more opportunity to derail a thread. I don't believe anything anyone says is gonna help 'Visitor' learn. We should all pick our battles.


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

Back on topic for the op.

I'm a big fan of playing the reward lottery when it comes to recall.
I will vary my rewards on a successful recall. Sometimes I will reward a high value treat such as a piece of cocktail sausage or roast chicken. Occasionally I will reward several pieces. On rare occasions, when my dog recalls from a difficult situation, I reward a jackpot such as pouch of cat food. Other times I will reward nothing at all.
Dogs become hooked on coming back to you. It is addictive for them. 'What am I going to get? What am I going to get?'

Play ball games to keep your dog close and train. But make the training fun and rewarding.

Also change direction constantly, don't just walk in a predetermined route. If your dog runs past you, do a 180 and head off in the opposite direction. Keep them guessing.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

> Pappychi said:
> 
> 
> > Do you honestly think a bit of training is going to outweigh often hundreds of years worth of instincts?
> ...


I'm putting the whole exchange together to be very clear about what I'm responding to.
Click on the shaded box to see the whole quote.
Besoeker, if you are not qualified to say how to train a sighthound, you are not qualified to spout unfounded opinions on those who might not let theirs off leash.
Sometimes it's better to keep quiet instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt if you get my drift.

If you're going to say things like breed doesn't matter when it comes to recall, then be prepared to back that statement up with factual evidence and experience. You have neither, and you're being called on it. That's not bashing, that's just calling BS. Don't like it? Quit posting statements you can't back up. Pretty simple really.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> She would quite likely tell the dog in her own, no uncertain terms, to back off. If that dog did, then no harm done. However, if that dog took exception to her reaction then all hell could kick off.


This is Bates, he gives appropriate corrections with fair warning, but if the dog doesn't gracefully accept that correction, watch out.

If it were Breez, that's it, the other dog might as well keep the toy because she won't touch anything that has strange dog spit on it. So it wouldn't matter how quickly the dog gave the toy back, as far as Breez is concerned, it's contaminated and she won't touch it (can't say I blame her really).


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

My two are closely bonded and tend to work as a team. 

My Schnauzer would growl to let the dog know to back off. If it didn't then one of two things would happen, either my Schnauzer would bite him on the nose, or, more likely my Pei would step between him and the other dog to prevent further confrontation. If the dog still didn't take the hint, my Pei would turn to face the dog, before walking it off to a safe distance. 

I've seen this happen with both my present and previous Pei. They've done it quietly with the minimum of fuss but with a great deal of determination and a "don't mess with me" attitude!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Caribou said:


> You're right, definitely  - I just think when it gets to 4 pages of troll-baiting then it's kinda not really helping anyone any longer and it's just giving him more opportunity to derail a thread. I don't believe anything anyone says is gonna help 'Visitor' learn. We should all pick our battles.


I think it also depends on what your definition of a troll is. For me it isn't someone with an alternative view point, someone who demonstrates lack of understanding or ignorance. My understanding of a troll is someone who purposefully starts threads about contentious issues, taking the stand they know will cause a reaction just to get that reaction. I personally don't believe that to be the case with @Besoeker who has taken on a rescue dog he is obviously very proud of. I just think he has some misguided viewpoints and if by spending a bit of time explaining why we view those as misguided/wrong/dangerous we can at least make him think and perhaps change a little bit then I think its worth responding. I know years ago I was one of those people who thought all dogs should be off lead and allowed to play and sort things out for themselves, I learnt the hard way that I was wrong and changed plus I then had a very reactive rescue rottie which showed me a different view of the other end of the lead followed by caring for several post op orthopaedic cases needing long periods of lead only exercise. A lot of that was before I joined forums and if I had been exposed to threads like this and the other locked one back then I might have changed my views/behaviour sooner


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> This is Bates, he gives appropriate corrections with fair warning, but if the dog doesn't gracefully accept that correction, watch out.


well how confrontational 

I usually have to step in with Spen as he has to be pushed a hell of a lot to tell another dog to sod off in most cases and I don't think it's fair to let him be harassed while the other owner usually stands there laughing. When he does react he's appropriate but sometimes the other dog doesn't accept a "knock it off" and it escalates.


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## Caribou (Jan 27, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> [...] I just think he has some misguided viewpoints and if by spending a bit of time explaining why we view those as misguided/wrong/dangerous we can at least make him think and perhaps change a little bit then I think its worth responding.[...]


I support your attempts to educate and applaud your patience.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> well how confrontational
> 
> I usually have to step in with Spen as he has to be pushed a hell of a lot to tell another dog to sod off in most cases and I don't think it's fair to let him be harassed while the other owner usually stands there laughing. When he does react he's appropriate but sometimes the other dog doesn't accept a "knock it off" and it escalates.


He he 
No, he's not confrontational, he doesn't go out looking for problems, but I'm the first to admit that Bates can definitely be an ass'ole. He has precious little tolerance for rude dogs, and his fuse is short - there we go with breed traits again. He is very typical of his type in that he doesn't suffer fools. It is what it is.

However, as a responsible owner, I am fully aware of my dog's traits, and take those tendencies in to account when I decide what he is and is not allowed to do. And one of those things he's not allowed to do is interact with dogs we don't know.

I have absolutely zero need for him to interact with unknown dogs owned by people who's dog skills and control over their dogs is unknown to me. 
Bates is sociable, he has a group of "approved" dogs he gets to play with regularly, he has a ton of fun activities he gets to do, and we're always finding more fun things to do. Absolutely no reason to let him interact with dogs I don't know, and absolutely not worth the risk.

And you're absolutely right, it is 100% not fair for your dog to have to correct another dog at all, never mind continue to correct another dog because the owner is sitting there clueless. I'm not putting my dog in the position to have to correct any dog, and if my dog gets out of line, I step in, I don't leave it up to the other dog. 
(Within reason of course, in a multi dog home, they're going to have to learn to respect each others' signals, and you can't step in for every little thing. But that's with dogs they live with, not out and about.)


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Besoeker, if you are not qualified to say how to train a sighthound, you are not qualified to spout unfounded opinions on those who might not let theirs off leash.
> Sometimes it's better to keep quiet instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt if you get my drift.[/quote ]
> 
> Yet more personal opinion about me with no sound basis. It rather saddens me that a simple point about letting my dog off the lead has descended into this.
> ...


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Why are you quoting me yet again for something said by another member?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> Another assumption that is simply not justified.


You do realise you've actually resorted to contradicting yourself?

You said you're not concerned about your dog's behaviour. Your own words.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Why are you quoting me yet again for something said by another member?


Human error.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> You do realise you've actually resorted to contradicting yourself?
> 
> You said you're not concerned about your dog's behaviour. Your own words.


Care to quote exactly what I said in context?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Bosoeker ............ I really am glad that your dog is non-confrontational.

That will give you something to chat about with the Vet who stitches him up when he nicks a ball from the wrong dog.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> Bosoeker ............ I really am glad that your dog is non-confrontational.
> 
> That will give you something to chat about with the Vet who stitches him up when he nicks a ball from the wrong dog.


You have completely missed the point.
No problem.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

I could be wrong, but it seems the OP is feeling under attack and has got caught into a spiraling need to defend himself and probably speaking about things he never intended to discuss in the first place.
From that place it is difficult to be open to anything IME.
Seeds have been planted and maybe in future experiences they will be helpful.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> Another assumption that is simply not justified.


Here is where you said you DIDN'T say you're not concerned.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> Yes, I suppose that's a possibility. But he is nom-confrontational preferring to stay away from hostility so I am not greatly concerned about it.


And here is where you actually DID say you're not concerned.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> And here is where you actually DID say you're not concerned.


If you wish to quote me, that's fine.
But please quote what I actually posted.
Missing out words to make your point is just plain dishonest.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> If you wish to quote me, that's fine.
> But please quote what I actually posted.
> Missing out words to make your point is just plain dishonest.


I suggest you go back and re-read your own posts.

I have not missed out words, I've quoted exactly what you said.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> I suggest you go back and re-read your own posts.
> 
> I have not missed out words, I've quoted exactly what you said.


Might I kindly request that you look back at what I actually posted?


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

No, what you've gotten to know is herding breeds that does not automatically give you in-depth knowledge into other breed characteristics. Just because you know Collies intimately doesn't mean you'd be able to intimately understand LSG breeds for example .

Nor does it automatically grant you the superior knowledge to people who have lived with and own breeds which for whatever reason are not allowed off the lead.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> Agree with all of that. Maybe not the out of earshot - they have very good hearing. Ours is a collie too and a rescueu dog. But after just a few weeks of ownership we let him off lead. Made us anxious to begin with but he was fine.
> 
> A little tale. We'd had him a few months. I had six weeks where I was away for pretty much all of the time every day. My dear wife had to walk him when I wasn't there. One day she had no lead. It was in my coat pocket and I was on my way to hospital for the day. She walked anyway and he was fine.
> 
> And you are right about the squirrels. When ours spots one he will chase it from tree to tree. Until he learns to climb, and he is working on that, they are safe. We have learned to just stroll on. He'll find us. and come galloping up.


The last line of the above says it all for me.

If my Jack Russell spots a squirrel, she too will run from tree to tree. However, I don't just stroll on and assume she will come and find me when she's ready.

Whilst your dog is behaving that way, he's out of control and, when you stroll on, he's also out of your sight. That wouldn't do for me, that's why Rosie stays on a training line when there are squirrels around.


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> Yes, I suppose that's a possibility. But he is nom-confrontational preferring to stay away from hostility so I am not greatly concerned about it.


I'll quote you.

Have I missed anything out?


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Why are you quoting me yet again for something said by another member?


That was me he quoted, not you.

Let me try to recap because it's getting more than a little confusing....
@Besoeker made a claim, that breed traits don't matter when it comes to training recall. (He also said collies aren't bred to be handler dependent, but I'll leave that one aside for now.)

The breed traits comment (along with a couple others) led me to ask how he (besoeker) might go about training a Sighthound to come when called. 
He replied that he has not owned any sighthounds and is therefore not the one to answer that question.

If one does not have any experience training a Sighthound, then it stands to reason that one might not be in the best position to make claims about breed traits and how they might affect recall training.

Which led to my comment about lack of experience and not being able to back up claims. It's not a personal attack, it's simply stating facts.

So I will simply restate, that if you're going to make a claim about dogs, breeds, training, etc. on a dog forum, expect to have to back those claims up with factual evidence. Pretty straight forward really....


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> No, what you've gotten to know is herding breeds that does not automatically give you in-depth knowledge into other breed characteristics. Just because you know Collies intimately doesn't mean you'd be able to intimately understand LSG breeds for example .


Yet another invalid assumption.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> Yet another invalid assumption.


Isn't it a little pointless denying what you've said through this thread, when it's all sitting there for others to read?

Why are you describing everyone else's replies to you as "invalid assumptions"?

We are responding to what you have said ............. we're not assuming anything.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> Yet another invalid assumption.




You may have 'bucket loads' of experience with herding breeds but you don't have it with Life Stock Guardians, Sighthounds etc thus you cannot make assumptions that you would be able to 'train out' the core instincts of a breed.

Maybe instead of claiming things are 'invalid' you should listen to people who have more experience with these breeds than you. You might learn something


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

Okay, let's try this way:
@Besoeker how would you go about helping one of those poor dogs who are never allowed off leash? What tips would you give the owners to help them teach their dog well enough that the dog can go off leash? 
Or, what if you ended up with a rescue dog with iffy recall, what would you do to improve that recall?


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> I
> 
> We are responding to what you have said ............. we're not assuming anything.


You assumed that I have had experience with herding breeds and not others.
No big deal.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Okay, let's try this way:
> @Besoeker how would you go about helping one of those poor dogs who are never allowed off leash? What tips would you give the owners to help them teach their dog well enough that the dog can go off leash?
> Or, what if you ended up with a rescue dog with iffy recall, what would you do to improve that recall?


Bond.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Besoeker said:


> Bond.


Now there you go again. That is damn right insulting to those of us with rescue dogs who have put years of work into their recall training. You are implying we don't have a bond with our dog which is ignorant and nasty. A dog with a high prey drive has just that a high prey drive, it doesn't mean it hasn't bonded with its owner, just that its instincts sometimes take over. Perhaps it would help if you told us which breeds of dogs you have actually owned/trained in the past (other than collies) and why you have stated elsewhere that your dog chases cyclists and joggers if you have such a good bond with him.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> Bond.


That's your oh so helpful answer? Bond?
So if I'm struggling with recall, and I come to you for help, your answer to me is to bond? 
What if the dog and owner are already clearly bonded but the recall is still an issue? Now what?



Besoeker said:


> You maybe, just maybe, get to know a little about dogs.


If this is directed at me, then I would say I do know a little 
I most definitely still have a whole lot to learn though, but fortunately I love learning about dogs and dedicate a lot of my time and money to exactly that 
Perhaps someone with the extensive experience you claim to have should be running seminars and writing books to help others....


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> Bond.


You must be joking? Please tell me you're joking...

Are you, essentially, saying that the majority of dogs recall issues come down to a lack of bond with the owner? 

How awfully insulting.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> Bond.


And that, right there, is where your ignorance and devastating lack of knowledge shines through.

I've watched you talk in circles, dodge direct questions, misquote people and complain when people accurately quote you. You accuse people of bashing you when all they are trying to do is get a straight answer out of you.

I hope, for any dogs sake, that you never end up with a reactive dog or one who requires any form of hard work and training. Because your cluelessness will be to their detriment. They will suffer at your hand and under your "care".

The bond with my dogs is beyond judgement by you. How dare you imply that owners like me don't have a bond with our dogs! You are ignorant, plain and simple.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> You must be joking? Please tell me you're joking.


OK. I'm joking...............if that's what you want to believe.


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

:Facepalm !


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

This guy is a ignorant liar that hasn't got a clue about dogs. (In my opinion, of course)I tried to avoid being personal but I'm sorry, it had to be said.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> Bond.


You can't recall your own dog from squirrels.

Why don't you try bonding with him?

My JR bitch is very, very focused on me when we're walking. She isn't interested in other dogs, other people, birds, anything, heck, she isn't even interested in nicking balls from other dogs, but if she sees a squirrel, she's off, pretty much like your own dog.

What's your advice?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

And how do we acquire this fantastic bond that solves all recall issues? Seriously, I'd love to know since I can't get a reliable recall from other dogs within a certain range until Spen's said hello.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

tomo13 said:


> This guy is a ignorant liar that hasn't got a clue about dogs. (In my opinion, of course)I tried to avoid being personal but I'm sorry, it had to be said.


Your opinion is flawed.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> Your opinion is flawed.


Your knowledge is flawed.

Now care to reply to the many questions you've been asked?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Maybe, just maybe he means....... James Bond. You know, that chap who's a wonderful dog trainer who promotes ball stealing.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> You can't recall your own dog from squirrels.


I don't need to.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Kimmikins said:


> Your knowledge is flawed.


And yours is perfect. 
Have a nice day.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Siskin said:


> Maybe, just maybe he means....... James Bond. You know, that chap who's a wonderful dog trainer who promotes ball stealing.


Oh I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who was thinking it!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

magpie said:


> Oh I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who was thinking it!


Whey hey!

Great minds think alike.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> And yours is perfect.
> Have a nice day.


Now who's making assumptions 

Mine is far from perfect. I am learning new things every day; from reading up on topics, from talking to Fidgey's behaviourist, and I learn a lot from my dogs. They teach me something every day.

The difference between us, is that I acknowledge that I don't know everything. I seek advice and knowledge from everywhere I can. And I don't insult people, and do it with a holier than thou attitude.

Go forth and be ignorant. Go forth and remain convinced you're not in need of doing some serious homework. Just...go forth. Elsewhere.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> I don't need to.


But why? Isn't there any situation which may result in you _needing _to recall your dog from a squirrel?

Many a dog has died from chasing something into the path of a car or becoming stuck in a potentially dangerous situation.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

I suspect @Besoeker is bored. So he is playing with us.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Wow, if only I had know that I only had to get a bond with my dog to be able to recall him away from chasing deer...that would have saved me hours and hours of work on impulse control and recall training 

ETA: Just because I have been able to achieve this with my dog, in no way do I think that I could train all dogs of all breeds to do the same.


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## Caribou (Jan 27, 2016)

I am gonna get this to help me bond with Max...


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

JoanneF said:


> I suspect @Besoeker is bored. So he is playing with us.


Meh, I'm easily amused, I'll play along 

At this point it is kind of amusing, gotta admit.

To be fair, I am always working on my relationship with my dogs (bond). I don't think that's something that is ever "done", kind of like training. It's always a work in progress. So while I have a great relationship with my dogs, I'm not above thinking it doesn't need improving. There is always room for improvement.

However, there is so much more to a good recall than bond. It's a trained behavior, like any other. The dog needs to know that cue means come in all sorts of contexts and under all sorts of distractions. 
I wouldn't say a dog who runs to catch up to you if you walk off is recalling. To me that's not a recall. Recall is I call, you come, and you come right away, no dawdling, straight to me, stay with me. For some of us it also includes a sit and wait for further instruction. That's more than bond. That's training. 
Maybe my standards are just higher?


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Caribou said:


> I am gonna get this to help me bond with Max...


That should do it, a tub of glue, far better then all that training.


----------



## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Meh, I'm easily amused, I'll play along


It's like when you get one of these marketing/sales calls. If I have time on my hands I try to sell them my products. They get really confused! Oh, sorry; should this be in the cat (and mouse?) thread?


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Caribou said:


> I am gonna get this to help me bond with Max...


I might use to glue Bear's jaws together to stop the barking!

God this bonding is like the answer to all the training issues ever!


----------



## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

Working on our bond :Happy



























I do have other dogs, but I play favorites


----------



## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

Sorry, but your dog isn't off chasing squirrels so your argument is invalid 

(Great photos. The focus between you two is lovely to see)


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I do have other dogs, but I play favorites


How could you not? Bates is just awesome


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Bonding in the forest



no scents in this little picnic spot so Arthur is happy to cozy up to his Mum but have no doubt if he heard a pheasant or a duck and wasn't attached to my walking belt he would be gone after it in seconds.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh and bonding pics


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Bonding pictures with each of mine during/just before walkies!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> I don't need to.


Well, you heard it here first folks.

Apparently, we don't NEED to be able to recall our dogs when they're chasing small furries.

Why have I not seen the light?

Of course we don't need to either be able to recall them or control them. After all, if you just "stroll on", confident that your dog will come and find you sooner or later, why even give a damn what your dog is doing when you can't see it?

I think it's called 'The Art of Carefree Dog Ownership'.

What you do is take your dog to the park, let him go, confident in the knowledge that he's an amiable chap, let him steal balls thrown for other dogs and chase squirrels whilst you wander on, oblivious, then rock up on a forum and tell everyone else where they're going wrong because they do choose to be responsible or at least aware of what their dog is doing.

The bottom line is, my dog loves me, I have a bond with him and his coat is shiny so, it doesn't matter if he rackets round the park, making a colossal nuisance of himself, whilst I pretend he isn't with me.

I've learned a lot. The reason I keep Rosie on a longline in squirrel territory is not because I don't want her tearing round out of control, or, worse, running onto the main road, it's because I don't have a bond with her.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Perhaps it would help if you told us which breeds of dogs you have actually owned/trained in the past (other than collies) and why you have stated elsewhere that your dog chases cyclists and joggers if you have such a good bond with him.


@Besoeker you seemed to have overlooked the question again.


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> Bond.


GREAT NEWS! Seeing my surname's BOND and my son is James I obviously don't need to do a thing with my dogs! I shall now cancel all training classes and leave them to their own devices, confident in the knowledge we're all strongly BOND(ED)! What a relief!


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## Caribou (Jan 27, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Working on our bond :Happy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These images made me well up a little. His heart is in his eyes when he looks at you. What a lucky mommy you are!


----------



## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Pappychi said:


> But why? Isn't there any situation which may result in you _needing _to recall your dog from a squirrel?
> 
> Many a dog has died from chasing something into the path of a car or becoming stuck in a potentially dangerous situation.


If there is a risk of him being exposed to road traffic, he is on the lead. That's just common sense.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Kimmikins said:


> The difference between us, is that I acknowledge that I don't know everything.


That isn't a difference.
The beginning of understanding is the acknowledgement of ignorance.
We should all heed that. Yourself included.
.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Meow!


----------



## Guest (Apr 13, 2016)

Caribou said:


> These images made me well up a little. His heart is in his eyes when he looks at you. What a lucky mommy you are!


Aw... thank you 
Bates is a special dog, I didn't want/need another dog when he came along, but he was making a big nuisance of himself in his original rescue home, prey drive getting him in all sorts of trouble. He was either going to get shot, maimed, or his owners were going to PTS, so I took him on - on a trial basis. I joke sometimes that 7 years later, he's still here on a trial basis 
He's the typical "needs a job" dog, who is absolutely lovely to live with as long as his brain is entertained. So entertain his brain we did. He has multiple titles in rally, obedience, he's therapy dog certified, has done acting gigs, barn hunt, agility, demos, innumerable workshops and seminars, we currently do nosework... Whatever is going on, we sign up, and he's always game for anything, always gives 110%. 
But his most important job is being best friend in the world to my two children. He has such an amazing affinity with kids, truly enjoys them and seeks them out for company and entertainment. The (dare I say it?) bond he has with "his" kids is the real "aw" factor for me 



StormyThai said:


> How could you not? Bates is just awesome


I think so, but I'm slightly biased 
I think Breez is pretty awesome too though, my silly girl <3


----------



## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> To be fair, I am always working on my relationship with my dogs (bond). I don't think that's something that is ever "done", kind of like training. It's always a work in progress. So while I have a great relationship with my dogs, I'm not above thinking it doesn't need improving. There is always room for improvement.


Totally agree. A work in progress is spot on.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Kimmikins said:


> Now who's making assumptions
> 
> Mine is far from perfect. I am learning new things every day; from reading up on topics, from talking to Fidgey's behaviourist, and I learn a lot from my dogs. They teach me something every day.
> 
> ...


I think that nobody will ever know enough about this subject. Just think back a few years to when it was the widely held belief that we had to dominate etc., and I'm sure everyone thought that the top trainers knew everything. Then times moved on and new training styles evolved and it turns out, we will never know everything. The best we can do is to continue reading books, speaking to more knowledgeable people etc. and keep trying to increase our knowledge. I feel that we're letting our dogs down if we don't make some sort of effort to continue learning.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Wow, if only I had know that I only had to get a bond with my dog to be able to recall him away from chasing deer...that would have saved me hours and hours of work on impulse control and recall training
> 
> ETA: Just because I have been able to achieve this with my dog, in no way do I think that I could train all dogs of all breeds to do the same.


Bugger, I was going to ask you to pop over this weekend


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Working on our bond :Happy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh wow, you guys look fantastic!


----------



## Guest (Apr 13, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> Totally agree. A work in progress is spot on.


I know this goes without saying, but @Besoeker you're not fooling anyone. (Well, other than yourself.)
You can't make as many ignorant comments as you have and then try to sound like you know what you're talking about by latching on to a line here or there from other posters. If you knew training and relationships with dogs are a work in progress, you would have said so in the 50 or so posts you have made on this thread.

I originally thought you were not a troll as your original posts on this forum struck me as someone who is proud of their dog like many of us on here are. But your behavior on this thread is most definitely troll-like. You are not attempting to contribute, just antagonize. 
I know, I know, you're going to say I'm wrong, that I'm not responding to what you have posted, that I'm making incorrect assumptions, trust me your MO is quite clear by now.

If we let them, dogs have so much to teach us. One of the best things my dogs have taught me is humility. Some of us apparently have not gotten to that lesson quite yet 

The sad thing is, I know your dog and your relationship with him would benefit from you checking your ego long enough to take on even a tiny fraction of what has been said on here. I have a feeling that just won't happen though. Which is sad really.

@MiffyMoo is exactly right, we do let our dogs (and ourselves) down if we don't make an effort to continue learning...


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I know this goes without saying, but @Besoeker you're not fooling anyone. (Well, other than yourself.)
> You can't make as many ignorant comments as you have and then try to sound like you know what you're talking about by latching on to a line here or there from other posters. If you knew training and relationships with dogs are a work in progress, you would have said so in the 50 or so posts you have made on this thread.
> 
> I originally thought you were not a troll as your original posts on this forum struck me as someone who is proud of their dog like many of us on here are. But your behavior on this thread is most definitely troll-like. You are not attempting to contribute, just antagonize.
> ...


He hasn't said whether he does any training with his dog, but I know that my two are immeasurably happier when we do short bursts of intensive training, and it really has improved our relationship. No longer are they at home waiting to go out any more; I sometimes believe they get far more enjoyment out of being made to think than they do going out on a walk.


----------



## Guest (Apr 13, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> He hasn't said whether he does any training with his dog, but I know that my two are immeasurably happier when we do short bursts of intensive training, and it really has improved our relationship. No longer are they at home waiting to go out any more; I sometimes believe they get far more enjoyment out of being made to think than they do going out on a walk.


When Pigs Fly has been a hit I take it?


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> When Pigs Fly has been a hit I take it?


So obsessed. Going back and rereading it


----------



## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> I think that nobody will ever know enough about this subject. Just think back a few years to when it was the widely held belief that we had to dominate etc., and I'm sure everyone thought that the top trainers knew everything. Then times moved on and new training styles evolved and it turns out, we will never know everything. The best we can do is to continue reading books, speaking to more knowledgeable people etc. and keep trying to increase our knowledge. I feel that we're letting our dogs down if we don't make some sort of effort to continue learning.


Excellent post if I may say so.


----------



## Guest (Apr 13, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh wow, you guys look fantastic!


Thank you  Bates does a good job of making me look good, but he also does a great job of keeping me humble LOL!


----------



## Guest (Apr 13, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> @Besoeker you seemed to have overlooked the question again.


Yup. And again...
Many avoided questions - though no mystery as to why...

I hope you're not holding your breath


----------



## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> I know this goes without saying, but @Besoeker you're not fooling anyone. (Well, other than yourself.)
> You can't make as many ignorant comments as you have .


What exactly was ignorant about my comment?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

:Yawn:Yawn:Yawn round and round in circles we go. By the way you still haven't answered the question 

"Perhaps it would help if you told us which breeds of dogs you have actually owned/trained in the past (other than collies) and why you have stated elsewhere that your dog chases cyclists and joggers if you have such a good bond with him."


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Besoeker said:


> What exactly was ignorant about my comment?


If you actually read the posts (ironic considering you keep accusing others of not reading yours) then you will see that it has been explained over and over and over to you in two threads...how about you answer some of our questions instead?


----------



## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> If you actually read the posts (ironic considering you keep accusing others of not reading yours) then you will see that it has been explained over and over and over to you in two threads...how about you answer some of our questions instead?


OK. As has been decreed here, I am an uneducated, ignorant troll with no idea about how to properly get my corrent do to interact witj others. And I'm 111 years old and a liar. Obviously

Just happens that I got a very shy, abandoned dog from a rescue centre. 
He is now a healthy happy chappie. He interacts with other dogs and people. All the local children love him and he sits down to get their cuddles. And a treat if their parents allow it.

My abysmal ignorance seems to have worked reasonably well.

This the beast that, despite my woeful inadequacies, seems to interact fairly well with a new friend.










Sticky busniess but they shared it.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

OK got it...you're not here to actually take part in a discussion, you just want to sneer and take offence at people comment on the things you write.


It's great that you rescued a dog, you are not the only one to take on rescue dogs!


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2016)

Ah yes, well, the beauty of dogs is that they repeatedly end up happy, easy going, well-adjusted "good" dogs despite their owners not thanks to their owners.



Besoeker said:


> What exactly was ignorant about my comment?


It is ignorant to say that breed traits don't make a difference when it comes to teaching recall.
It is ignorant to say a loose leash means a dog is happy and relaxed and a tight leash means the dog is not well trained.
It is ignorant to allow your dog to take a toy intended for another dog.
It is ignorant to claim bond is all it take to train a dog. 
It is ignorant to cite Cesar Millan as an example of anything positive in dog training. 
It is ignorant to think dogs who don't get to go off leash are not as well exercised and mentally stimulated as those who do get to go off leash. 
Shall I go on?


----------



## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Ah yes, well, the beauty of dogs is that they repeatedly end up happy, easy going, well-adjusted "good" dogs despite their owners not thanks to their owners.
> 
> It is ignorant to say that breed traits don't make a difference when it comes to teaching recall.
> It is ignorant to say a loose leash means a dog is happy and relaxed and a tight leash means the dog is not well trained.
> ...


Do as you wish. Just be truthful.


----------



## Guest (Apr 13, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> Do as you wish. Just be truthful.


I shall and I am.


----------



## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> OK got it...you're not here to actually take part in a discussion, you just want to sneer and take offence at people comment on the things you write.
> 
> It's great that you rescued a dog, you are not the only one to take on rescue dogs!


I already made the point that I am not the only one who has none so and that we routinely meet others who have don so from that same rescue centre..
If you want to take a pop at me, no problem. But might I gently suggest that you check the facts first?


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)




----------



## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> I shall and I am.


I have a happy, healthy dog. Good looking too I might add. He gets all the medication and we keep a recors to he gets it on time. He goest to the groomer once a month. He gets regular flea and worm treatments.

We walk four or five times a day. We meet and greet. He delights in meeting Chai, the Alsation Tobias, Mokie....and lots of other., He interacts well. with children. and they just love him. to bits.

So what am I doing wrong? Why all the brickbats?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Besoeker said:


> OK. As has been decreed here, I am an uneducated, ignorant troll with no idea about how to properly get my corrent do to interact witj others. And I'm 111 years old and a liar. Obviously
> 
> Just happens that I got a very shy, abandoned dog from a rescue centre.
> He is now a healthy happy chappie. He interacts with other dogs and people. All the local children love him and he sits down to get their cuddles. And a treat if their parents allow it.
> ...


Congratulations. No one here is questioning that you have a lovely dog. You are the one who put your age down as 111 on your profile - the person who mentioned that on the other thread was quoting your profile that YOU made.

All 3 of my current dogs are rescues. Arthur the one you were rude about came to me in this state





I've already explained to you that he was living as a stray in Ireland having previously been a working gundog. He has high prey drive. For the first 6 months he was with us he was like a feral dog. He is loving and sweet in the house but outside completely obsessed with scenting. If I were to have him off lead like yours is in the photo his nose would be down and he would be gone in seconds. Playing with other dogs does not interest him. Please tell us how you would go about training him to recall as a behaviourist and specialist gundog trainer obviously know less than you. Oh and by the way you still haven't answered the question I have asked you about 5 times now.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Besoeker said:


> I have a happy, healthy dog. Good looking too I might add. He gets all the medication and we keep a recors to he gets it on time. He goest to the groomer once a month. He gets regular flea and worm treatments.
> 
> We walk four or five times a day. We meet and greet. He delights in meeting Chai, the *Alsation *Tobias, Mokie....and lots of other., He interacts well. with children. and they just love him. to bits.
> 
> So what am I doing wrong? Why all the brickbats?


 They are called German Shepherds not Alsations - that name was given to the breed during the war so as not to use the word German.

How many more times do we have to explain to you that its your attitude to other people - the holier than though dismissive attitude of anyone whose dog doesn't do what yours does which is a bit of a cheek really when you have openly stated elsewhere he chases joggers and cyclists and not forgetting park maintenance trucks. You seem to be totally unable to grasp or understand why some dogs cannot safely be let off the lead and totally unable to accept those dogs can and do still lead active stimulating lives. They may not be doing what your dog does but what your dog does isn't what all dogs need or want to be doing.


----------



## Guest (Apr 13, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> I have a happy, healthy dog. Good looking too I might add. He gets all the medication and we keep a recors to he gets it on time. He goest to the groomer once a month. He gets regular flea and worm treatments.
> 
> We walk four or five times a day. We meet and greet. He delights in meeting Chai, the Alsation Tobias, Mokie....and lots of other., He interacts well. with children. and they just love him. to bits.
> 
> So what am I doing wrong? Why all the brickbats?


My dog is better looking that yours. 
And I don't know what brickbats means.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

so when my 12yr old, onlead, arthritic dog, bites your off lead, out of your sight, dog, when it comes barrelling into her face and causes her pain,
Ill be the one at fault because your dog is such a gentleman?
Please dont be so arrogant as to say it wouldnt ever happen, because you _believe_ you know what goes on inside his head
hes a dog and at anytime may throw a recall or decide he doesnt like another dog, or wants to chase the same stick/ball as a dog who doesnt want to share, get scared by a noise, a reflection, something fluttering

As for having trained a rescue dog-well done you, but it doesnt make you unique, far from it in fact


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> I have a happy, healthy dog. Good looking too I might add. He gets all the medication and we keep a recors to he gets it on time. He goest to the groomer once a month. He gets regular flea and worm treatments.
> 
> We walk four or five times a day. We meet and greet. He delights in meeting Chai, the Alsation Tobias, Mokie....and lots of other., He interacts well. with children. and they just love him. to bits.
> 
> So what am I doing wrong? Why all the brickbats?


What the heck have flea and worm treatments got to do with anything?

I'll tell you what you're doing wrong. You're telling all of us that, in order to have a well trained dog, we need to have a bond with them, such as you have with yours.

In my opinion, any dog that tears off chasing squirrels shouldn't be left behind to get on with it, whilst his owner wanders off, leaving the dog to come and find him, and no dog should be allowed to barge up to other dogs, nicking their ball.

Whether you like it or you don't, your dog is not well trained, so why are you making derisive comments about those who do keep their dogs onlead and under control?

There's nothing clever about actually unleashing your dog, we can all do that, what's important is whether you can control your dog once he's loose, and you can't.

That doesn't make you superior to those of us who keep our dogs onlead when we know they're likely to blow their recall.


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

mrs phas said:


> so when my 12yr old, onlead, arthritic dog, bites your off lead, out of your sight, dog, when it comes barrelling into her face and causes her pain,
> Ill be the one at fault because your dog is such a gentleman?
> Please dont be so arrogant as to say it wouldnt ever happen, because you _believe_ you know what goes on inside his head
> hes a dog and at anytime may throw a recall or decide he doesnt like another dog, or wants to chase the same stick/ball as a dog who doesnt want to share, get scared by a noise, a reflection, something fluttering
> ...


Unless I've got it wrong when his dog decided he wanted to play with a less than keen on lead dog he got a telling off from the other dog.

Unfortunately instead of learning a lesson I believe the other dog was described as a 'vile beast' and his owner who rightly asked him to 'put his dog on an effing lead' was dismissed as a chav. He and Max couldn't be at fault as Max is friendly afterall...

Too many owners like this. I feel sorry for their dogs - they have no idea that they are letting their dogs be a complete nuisance. But you couldn't talk to them - they know best - so I just give them a wide berth. I just hope their dogs don't come to serious harm as a result of their owners irresponsibility.

Too many believe all dogs must be off lead regardless of training and shrug off what they get up to as just being a dog. No. They are being a nuisance. You are letting them be a nuisance. Either train them properly or keep them on a lead. I don't appreciate someone else's nuisance being a nuisance to me.

Have to say this is a massive bugbear of mine. Hence the spiel. :Banghead


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Besoeker said:


> So what am I doing wrong? Why all the brickbats?


Perhaps because you're doing nothing but judge those who weren't lucky enough to get a problem free dog. Or a dog with good bounce back. Or those using management to ensure their dog is not a danger to itself or others.


----------



## ZiggyB (Mar 5, 2016)

Well, I have been to our puppy training class this week, and with a mixture of my pup getting more confident and independent, and that I've been a tad lazy with the training over the hols, recall at the training is abysmal. Don't get me wrong, he's 'a very friendly dog', and 'is very sociable' and 'just wants to play' , and in such close proximity I have little to no recall control, so my trainer has put us forward for a recall course and hopefully by the end he will be fab. Luckily he is very young and sponge-like and so I think we may have a good chance of success


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

ZiggyB said:


> Well, I have been to our puppy training class this week, and with a mixture of my pup getting more confident and independent, and that I've been a tad lazy with the training over the hols, recall at the training is abysmal. Don't get me wrong, he's 'a very friendly dog', and 'is very sociable' and 'just wants to play' , and in such close proximity I have little to no recall control, so my trainer has put us forward for a recall course and hopefully by the end he will be fab. Luckily he is very young and sponge-like and so I think we may have a good chance of success


Sounds good. Can't believe you have a 'recall course'. Fancy. It reminds me how we are very very lacking in decent training opportunities in our area. Best I've been offered was basic obedience with a Barbara Woodhouse style trainer barking out of date methods in a community centre.

Her method largely being to shake the dog by the collar and haughtily announce, 'We do not do that here.'

I'm sure the recall course will work a treat.


----------



## ZiggyB (Mar 5, 2016)

Wee T said:


> Sounds good. Can't believe you have a 'recall course'. Fancy. It reminds me how we are very very lacking in decent training opportunities in our area. Best I've been offered was basic obedience with a Barbara Woodhouse style trainer barking out of date methods in a community centre.
> 
> Her method largely being to shake the dog by the collar and haughtily announce, 'We do not do that here.'
> 
> I'm sure the recall course will work a treat.


Ah thanks, it's good for me to learn by taking part, we are lucky. I don't think it's been available all that long, most trainers around here I think are the dominance/alpha sort, send your dog to them and they come back trained/broken after 6 weeks job :s


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

We go to 1 2 1 training which for me is great because we can concentrate on Georgina and Gwylim's weak points. Today for example we did recall, first with Georgina, then Gwylim and then both of them together!


----------



## ZiggyB (Mar 5, 2016)

Magyarmum said:


> We go to 1 2 1 training which for me is great because we can concentrate on Georgina and Gwylim's weak points. Today for example we did recall, first with Georgina, then Gwylim and then both of them together!


That's really good, mine offer this too, at the moment we're on the basics, but I may use this in the future.


----------



## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Siskin said:


> Meow!


Who knew dog chat could get quite so catty hey? 










I will leave Dean Winchester to give everyone a short synopsis of everyone's thoughts regarding this thread...


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Naaa...it's more


----------



## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> What the heck have flea and worm treatments got to do with anything?


A healthy and well cared for dog.


----------



## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> and no dog should be allowed to barge up to other dogs, nicking their ball.


If you want to respond to what I post respond to what I post. Not what you think I posted.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> But a bit more. We walk a lot - miles a day. Usually off the lead. Mostly, we have parks that are _fairly _secure for dogs and popular with dog walkers. We do the meet and greet thing - both the four leg and the two leg species. We, and he, have got to know quite a few characters.
> 
> We met a couple this evening, very charming and polite, but their big four year old dog was on a lead and clearly wanted to have a run around with ours. It did for a bit on a very long lead but it made me feel a bit bad that his range was limited. Made it a bit unfair on the dogs in my opinion. Their dogs, their choice of course. I have commented on this before. Should you worry that your dog won't come back to you when you form a bond with them with love and affection? I dunno how it is for others.
> 
> ...


This is what I "think" you posted.

Seriously, have you a short memory?

Your last line ends above with "and take tennis balls from others when he can".


----------



## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> This is what I "think" you posted.
> 
> Seriously, have you a short memory?
> 
> Your last line ends above with "and take tennis balls from others when he can".


Note the last three words.


----------



## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> A healthy and well cared for dog.


I don't doubt he is well cared for in that regard but I think you are underestimating the risks to him when you let him off lead when his training and recall isn't quite there yet.

If there is a chance he might approach a dog or a dog's ball without the owners say so, or a chance he will chase a jogger or cyclist, or rather worryingly circle dirt bikes, then you need to be protecting him by using a lead until you've worked more on those areas.

Please don't let him approach other dogs without owner permission or chase passersby. It really is putting him at risk - and that's not even getting into the harm that can be done to nervous dogs you might run into.

I know you don't fully appreciate reactive dogs which is fair enough but I wish you'd see that *your* dog is at risk if you allow him to approach or chase who and what he chooses. I'd be much more worried about that than fleas tbh.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Wee T said:


> I don't doubt he is well cared for in that regard but I think you are underestimating the risks to him when you let him off lead when his training and recall isn't quite there yet.
> 
> If there is a chance he might approach a dog or a dog's ball without the owners say so, or a chance he will chase a jogger or cyclist, or rather worryingly circle dirt bikes, then you need to be protecting him by using a lead until you've worked more on those areas.
> 
> ...


Your opinion is noted. 
Risk there is. And reward.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> Your opinion is noted.
> Risk there is. And reward.


No, no.

Reward for who? The owners of nervous or reactive dogs who may have put a lot of work into working with their dog's reactivity?

Believe me, I know, your Space Invader dog running after another dog's ball and trying to take it "when he can", in your own words, can set a reactive dog back by a mile.

Stop being so self-assured and cocky.

Your dog is out of control. You know nothing. Stop trying to be clever.


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> Your opinion is noted.
> Risk there is. And reward.


There's a much greater reward when you put the work in and reduce the risk rather than letting them off lead, hoping for the best. There's risk (taking a chance and having faith in your training) and then there's risk (sheer irresponsibility).

I truly hope your dog doesn't come a cropper. Or is allowed to harass others.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Wee T said:


> There's a much greater reward when you put the work in and reduce the risk rather than letting them off lead, hoping for the best. There's risk (taking a chance and having faith in your training) and then there's risk (sheer irresponsibility).
> 
> I truly *hope your dog doesn't come a cropper.* Or is allowed to harass others.


Unfortunately, these dogs usually do come a cropper and inevitably its the on the lead dogs fault . I've only ever had one serious, serious fight with any of my dogs, my old Old English Sheepdog Sam was slightly dog reactive so was always kept on a lead in public areas. This woman was walking a Bullmastiff (was well known in the area for being bloody ignorant with her dog!) who came bombing over out of nowhere whilst she shouted 'come here boy, come here!' from what seemed a mile away.

Well, all hell broke loose. It was one of the most awful things I've ever seen and the Bullmastiff came a cropper, 17 stitches I believe he had thanks to his owner lack of decent recall.

However, the psychological scars left on Sam were dreadful. He was really an absolute mess until the day we lost him.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I have suddenly remembered this...http://www.atlbanana.com/local-dog-owner-struggling-with-off-leash-addiction/

Can't think why this thread reminded me :Mooning


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

StormyThai said:


> I have suddenly remembered this...http://www.atlbanana.com/local-dog-owner-struggling-with-off-leash-addiction/
> 
> Can't think why this thread reminded me :Mooning


I like that, highly appropriate.


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## Kimmikins (Apr 9, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> I have suddenly remembered this...http://www.atlbanana.com/local-dog-owner-struggling-with-off-leash-addiction/
> 
> Can't think why this thread reminded me :Mooning


:Hilarious


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> I have suddenly remembered this...http://www.atlbanana.com/local-dog-owner-struggling-with-off-leash-addiction/
> 
> Can't think why this thread reminded me :Mooning





> We refer to this condition as Partially Recognized Irritating Canine Knowledge Syndrome.


sums it up nicely :Smuggrin


----------



## Guest (Apr 13, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> If you want to respond to what I post respond to what I post. Not what you think I posted.


I think you will find that on this forum, just as any other, you don't get to dictate how posters respond to you.
In case it is not clear to you, your actual posts are right here on the forum for all to read. So telling someone they're not responding to what you posted when it is clearly exactly what you posted just makes you look dumb.



Besoeker said:


> A healthy and well cared for dog.


Keeping your dog healthy and properly caring for them is a minimum requirement for ALL dog owners per the laws in your country as well as mine. The very minimal legal requirements of owning an animal is to give them adequate veterinary care and care for their needs. Not sure what meeting the minimum dog owner requirements proves in this discussion.



Besoeker said:


> I have a happy, healthy dog. Good looking too I might add. He gets all the medication and we keep a recors to he gets it on time. He goest to the groomer once a month. He gets regular flea and worm treatments.
> 
> We walk four or five times a day. We meet and greet. He delights in meeting Chai, the Alsation Tobias, Mokie....and lots of other., He interacts well. with children. and they just love him. to bits.
> 
> So what am I doing wrong? Why all the brickbats?


Not that I believe your question is genuine, but I have some time to respond, so I will.
The healthy part I've already covered.
That your dog is good looking I've also responded to by saying mine is better looking. Oh, was that catty? Yeah, that's exactly what you sound like in your posts. Perhaps a taste of your own medicine might open your eyes (or not... )
That you medicate your dog, hrm... I thought you just said he was healthy? If he's healthy, why does he need to be medicated?
He goes to the groomer once a month? Pfft... Okay... Mine have never set foot in a groomers. I take care of our their grooming needs myself and they enjoy the fuss and attention - it's all part of how bonded we are  :Mooning
Mine don't get regular flea and worm treatments because they don't get fleas and worms because I don't let them interact with any and every dog out there so they're not picking up diseases and parasites from untreated dogs. They do get heart worm prevention as any responsible owner around here would do. Again we're at the bare minimum requirements here...

So... what are you doing wrong? Well, I'm just going to be lazy and C/P what I told you earlier when you asked what was ignorant about your posts:

When you say that breed traits don't make a difference when it comes to teaching recall, you're wrong.
When you say a loose leash means a dog is happy and relaxed and a tight leash means the dog is not well trained, you're wrong.
When allow your dog to take a toy intended for another dog, you are in the wrong.
When you claim bond is all it take to train a dog, you are misguided and also wrong.
When you cite Cesar Millan as an example of anything positive in dog training, you are oh so very wrong.
When you think dogs who don't get to go off leash are not as well exercised and mentally stimulated as those who do get to go off leash, you are wrong.
Shall I go on?


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## Wee T (Dec 6, 2015)

Pappychi said:


> Unfortunately, these dogs usually do come a cropper and inevitably its the on the lead dogs fault . I've only ever had one serious, serious fight with any of my dogs, my old Old English Sheepdog Sam was slightly dog reactive so was always kept on a lead in public areas. This woman was walking a Bullmastiff (was well known in the area for being bloody ignorant with her dog!) who came bombing over out of nowhere whilst she shouted 'come here boy, come here!' from what seemed a mile away.
> 
> Well, all hell broke loose. It was one of the most awful things I've ever seen and the Bullmastiff came a cropper, 17 stitches I believe he had thanks to his owner lack of decent recall.
> 
> However, the psychological scars left on Sam were dreadful. He was really an absolute mess until the day we lost him.


That is awful. Some people just have no idea of potential damage their space invader can cause. Even the 'friendly' ones. Poor Sam. That should never have happened but I reckon it's not that uncommon.

And for a lot of these owners you could try and explain it - about space, fearfulness or reactivity - until you're blue in the face and they just won't get it.

I don't know whether its ignorance, sheer bullheadedness or this I'm alright, Jack attitude.

As far as they're concerned if their dog is 'friendly' there can't possibly be any problem with being off lead and anything that goes wrong will indeed be the other dogs fault.

As if friendliness was criteria enough. Gawd, if that were the case our girl wouldn't have a lead about her. And as it goes if she were off lead there would be no reactivity - she'd look like all those other friendly romping dogs.

Problem is I can't be sure she won't take it upon herself to 'play' with the wrong dog so for her sake and those around us she stays on a lead or line until we've worked on it and I'm sure she won't approach anyone or anything she shouldn't.

I'd sooner her be an on lead reactive dog that some people pity than an out of control a-hole. Even though its costing me a fortune in behaviourists. 

D'ya know what, I'm a mug. I should just let her off and when she starts accosting people just give em a wave and let them know that its quite alright 'She's friendly!!' :Wacky

Could buy some pretty shoes with the money I save. Ones that make me run fast to flee all the irate owners. :Nailbiting


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Still waiting for the answer @Besoeker

"Perhaps it would help if you told us which breeds of dogs you have actually owned/trained in the past (other than collies) and why you have stated elsewhere that your dog chases cyclists and joggers if you have such a good bond with him."


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Still waiting for the answer @Besoeker
> 
> "Perhaps it would help if you told us which breeds of dogs you have actually owned/trained in the past (other than collies) and why you have stated elsewhere that your dog chases cyclists and joggers if you have such a good bond with him."


LOL I'm just laughing now


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Deary, deary, deary me...........what a useless, ignorant, irresponsible, ill-educated dog owner I am.............
How could I have possibly wilfully allowed this risky and potentially lethal encounter to have taken place yesterday evening.:,,,,,,,,,










Oh yes, mine's the black and white one.......and no doubt you will all be immensely relieved to know that both survived unscathed to tell their tale......or is that tail.......


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> Deary, deary, deary me...........what a useless, ignorant, irresponsible, ill-educated dog owner I am.............
> How could I have possibly wilfully allowed this risky and potentially lethal encounter to have taken place yesterday evening.:,,,,,,,,,
> 
> 
> ...


They are both black and white!!!

But seriously, again you are completely dodging the issues here by posting an irrelevant photo of you dog having a sniff with a pup. It proves nothing.

You don't seem to post any pictures of your dog stealing another dogs ball or running off chasing squirrels, cyclists trucks etc.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

tomo13 said:


> They are both black and white!!!


How perceptive you are.......


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Posting one photo of your dog with another dog doesn't prove anything though...
Here are a couple of photos of my dog (the black one) OFFLEAD (since this is apparently so important) with other dogs.



















What you don't see is that 99.9% of the time he is on the lead when there are other dogs around and I never let him approach unknown dogs. The reason for this is that he is very reactive - we think because he is naturally anxious and also has back and joint problems and associates other dogs with pain because of the number of bad experiences he has had with idiots who let their "friendly" dogs come charging up to him. He makes it very clear to other dogs that he doesn't want to interact with him but the majority of "friendly" dogs we meet are rude and obnoxious and will try to bounce on him anyway.

When he was younger, and still allowed to play with tennis balls, my ball-obsessed dog would occasionally "beat" another dog to their ball. I was mortified when this happened, and so, if I could see another owner throwing a ball for their dog I would put his lead back on (he was mostly offlead in those days) and move away so we could play with our own ball without annoying other dogs and owners. Most of the people we met would do the same and those who didn't bother and let their dog "play" in this way were generally considered to be a nuisance and avoided by all...


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> How perceptive you are.......


How stupid you are.....

A picture of 2 black and white dogs and you say 'mine is the black and white one':Banghead:Banghead


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Still waiting for the answer @Besoeker
> 
> "Perhaps it would help if you told us which breeds of dogs you have actually owned/trained in the past (other than collies) and why you have stated elsewhere that your dog chases cyclists and joggers if you have such a good bond with him."


I think you'll be waiting until the next Millenium  I sincerely hope you're not holding your breath :Nailbiting

So to surmise the thoughts of the aforementioned poster - Breed traits do not matter so to all your northern breed, sighthound owners etc etc you just haven't put the effort in to train a decent recall.

To everyone else whose dog does not have a decent recall for whatever reason you need to bond with them.

Dogs should be allowed off the lead in the park to cause a nuisance of themselves whenever they please?

I feel like I've become one of the enlightened :Bookworm


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

tomo13 said:


> How stupid you are.....
> 
> A picture of 2 black and white dogs and you say 'mine is the black and white one':Banghead:Banghead


Obviously wasted on you.wasn't it.........but I'm the dim one.......


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Dimwit said:


> Posting one photo of your dog with another dog doesn't prove anything though...


Nothing to prove.
Why don't you lot get that.............


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> Nothing to prove.
> Why don't you lot get that.............


If you have nothing to prove, how come you are constantly posting photos trying to prove how marvellous your dog is?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

On lead, with no other dogs AND muzzled, shoot me.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> On lead, with no other dogs AND muzzled, shoot me.
> 
> View attachment 267724


He looks terribly miserable Sarah, look at that taut lead.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Besoeker said:


> Nothing to prove.
> Why don't you lot get that.............


So you won't answer questions posed to you, you say you have nothing to prove and come across as the all knowing and all seeing guru...so why are you here?


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

Siskin said:


> He looks terribly miserable Sarah, look at that taut lead.


Yep, i've never such a unhappy dog


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

tomo13 said:


> If you have nothing to prove, how come you are constantly posting photos trying to prove how marvellous your dog is?


I'm not.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> So you won't answer questions posed to you, you say you have nothing to prove and come across as the all knowing and all seeing guru...so why are you here?


How you interperet my posts is how you interperet my posts.
Perhaps you should just read the words without puting your slant on them.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> How you interperet my posts is how you interperet my posts.
> Perhaps you should just read the words without puting your slant on them.


The grown-up version of 'I know you are, I said you are, but what am I?' I'm amazed how you can make so many posts that say exactly nothing.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

McKenzie said:


> The grown-up version of 'I know you are, I said you are, but what am I?' I'm amazed how you can make so many posts that say exactly nothing.


Thank you for that most informative post.

Let me reciprocate:










at no charge.......


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Still waiting for the answer @Besoeker

"Perhaps it would help if you told us which breeds of dogs you have actually owned/trained in the past (other than collies) and why you have stated elsewhere that your dog chases cyclists and joggers if you have such a good bond with him."


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Besoeker said:


> Obviously wasted on you.wasn't it.........*but I'm the dim one*.......


Is the penny finally beginning to drop?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Besoeker said:


> How you interperet my posts is how you interperet my posts.
> Perhaps you should just read the words without puting your slant on them.


Not at all..you have the responsibility of the words you write. The members here can only go by what you write..if it is wrong then that is all on you my friend.

So I ask again, why are you here?

Do you want to learn from those that are more experienced and educated in all things dog or do you wish to just stir up trouble? Because so far your posts say it is the latter!
You can try to spin and twist that all you like so that you can play the victim, your posts are here in black and white for all too see.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

I have to say, I think it’s quite sad that some dog owners, who presumably must like dogs to some extent, can be so inconsiderate to other owners & their dogs. If your dog likes to chase balls then you take a ball with you on your walks, right? You don’t allow your dog to chase another dog’s ball because it’s rude and congratulations, you’ve just ruined someone else’s game. It’s not difficult really, is it??

If your dog likes to chase joggers, then you keep your dog on a lead around joggers until you train your dog not to chase. You don’t let him go at it and harass other people, it’s just common courtesy and prevents your dog from getting into trouble. Makes sense really, doesn’t it??

What I really don’t understand though is how someone can come onto a pet forum and state how their dog is ‘clearly’ happier and more relaxed than those ‘poor’ on lead dogs who are so obviously under exercised . And when people point out how incorrect those assumptions are, and explain how actually it’s very possible to give a dog plenty of exercise while on lead, and explain exactly why you shouldn’t let your dog chase after other dog’s toys... instead of taking that information on board the person starts baiting everyone into an argument!

I could take my dogs to the local parks & fields everyday and let them chase after anything they wanted. Heck, I could take them ten times a day, but I think I'd end up with two very bored, under stimulated dogs (which, thinking about it, would probably only encourage them to make their own fun and chase even more things!). 

It’s only from being on this forum really that I’ve learned about all the other activities I can do with my dogs, beyond the basic training like ‘sit’, ‘down’, 'stay' and recall . It’s a shame that some people are so stubborn that it’s more important for them to believe themselves to be right (even when they’re wrong!) than it is to learn something new and maybe, just maybe, improve on their relationship with their dog.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

McKenzie said:


> The grown-up version of 'I know you are, I said you are, but what am I?' I'm amazed how you can make so many posts that say exactly nothing.


If you don't care to read them, that's fine.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Well put @magpie, but be prepared for a very short smart alexy reply from @Besoeker who is still ignoring the question from RPH.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> you have the responsibility of the words you write.


*Responsibility* being the key word here. 
Besoeker is the only one responsible for what he has written on this thread and the other one. None of us wrote those words.
What started it all, 2 pages in:


Besoeker said:


> Should you worry that your dog won't come back to you when you form a bond with them with love and affection? I dunno how it is for others.





Besoeker said:


> It takes patience and can be a lot of work but, what you put in you get back many times over.





Besoeker said:


> Perhaps the more pertinent question is why they have bad recall. I don't believe it is breed related.


Saying that dogs who don't recall don't have as much bond with the owner as those who do is a hell of a statement. Claiming breed doesn't matter is a hell of a statement. 
If one is going to make such statements one should be expected to be able to back that shit up with factual evidence and/or some sort of relevant personal experience (not I've had dogs all my life. I've had a vagina my whole life, I'm no a gynecologist). 
Besoeker claims to have all this knowledge and experience with dogs (what with growing up on a working farm and all), yet can only supply photos of his dog off leash with other dogs. Yet deafeningly silent on the photos posted by other members and @rottiepointerhouse repeated question that he's just totally ignoring (along with my previous post).

So yeah, whatever... I think it's beyond clear at this point what's up. Nobody is fooled here. 
Have fun walking your dog @Besoeker glad you're on the other side of the pond where it's easy for me to avoid you


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Wee T said:


> Her method largely being to shake the dog by the collar and haughtily announce, 'We do not do that here.'


I'm sure the dog complied there an then, given she told him in perfect English....


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Pappychi said:


> Unfortunately, these dogs usually do come a cropper and inevitably its the on the lead dogs fault . I've only ever had one serious, serious fight with any of my dogs, my old Old English Sheepdog Sam was slightly dog reactive so was always kept on a lead in public areas. This woman was walking a Bullmastiff (was well known in the area for being bloody ignorant with her dog!) who came bombing over out of nowhere whilst she shouted 'come here boy, come here!' from what seemed a mile away.
> 
> Well, all hell broke loose. It was one of the most awful things I've ever seen and the Bullmastiff came a cropper, 17 stitches I believe he had thanks to his owner lack of decent recall.
> 
> However, the psychological scars left on Sam were dreadful. He was really an absolute mess until the day we lost him.


I'm so sorry, that's dreadful. Poor Sam, I can only imagine how that must have terrified him


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Wee T said:


> I don't know whether its ignorance, sheer bullheadedness or this I'm alright, Jack attitude.


When I had to ask a man to call his dog away from mine and he asked why, I explained that I was trying to keep mine under control, at which point he said "so the problem isn't with my dog, it's yours". Said dog was an intact male who trotted straight up to Dex and peed right in front of him. I almost dislocated both my shoulders trying to stop that lunge and, frankly, I don't blame Dex for being pissed off


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## Dog Walker Woman (Dec 6, 2013)

I also grew up on a working farm, where leads were rarely used but that experience is totally different to living in a different environment with lots of other dogs of different breeds, traffic, joggers etc !
How do YOU bond with Max ?
Other people amuse him with their dogs and tennis balls, he has fun playing with dogs, chasing bikes joggers and squirrels, and you send him to the groomers ( which IMO has spoiled his lovely tail and back end with no trousers, poor boy looked so embarrassed in the after groom pic)
So what do YOU actually DO with Max, to connect with him and build a bond ?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Pappychi said:


> So to surmise the thoughts of the aforementioned poster - Breed traits do not matter so to all your northern breed, sighthound owners etc etc you just haven't put the effort in to train a decent recall.


No silly, I can train them until I'm blue in the face, it's purely because my dogs don't love me enough that they don't come flying back the second I call


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> No silly, I can train them until I'm blue in the face, it's purely because my dogs don't love me enough that they don't come flying back the second I call


Georgina's excuse for not coming back when I call her is "Sajnalom anya, nem ertem angolul mert magyar vagyok" (sorry mum, I don't understand English 'cos I'm Hungarian)!


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Magyarmum said:


> Georgina's excuse for not coming back when I call her is "Sajnalom anya, nem ertem angolul mert magyar vagyok" (sorry mum, I don't understand English 'cos I'm Hungarian)!


:Hilarious


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> When I had to ask a man to call his dog away from mine and he asked why, I explained that I was trying to keep mine under control, at which point he said "so the problem isn't with my dog, it's yours". Said dog was an intact male who trotted straight up to Dex and peed right in front of him. I almost dislocated both my shoulders trying to stop that lunge and, frankly, I don't blame Dex for being pissed off


I was out with Spen a few weeks ago and had the pram with me. Some woman with a labradoodle let hers run up and run all around us trying to get Spen (who was on lead) to play. I'm then trying to stop 2 large dogs, one of which is attached to me by walking belt, from slamming into the pram and knocking it down. When she finally reaches me what does she say? "oh you've got your hands full there!" Well I f*cking wouldn't have if you'd keep your dog under control!


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> No silly, I can train them until I'm blue in the face, it's purely because my dogs don't love me enough that they don't come flying back the second I call


Ah I see. I'm gonna set up a doggy therapists. Come lay on the coach and we will talk through how your dogs don't love you enough to return to you.

It might be a bit pricier than a behaviourist but breed traits are not an issue. It's cause they can't feel the love!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2016)

Bates often gets called in to be the stooge dog in therapy dog testing and CGC testing where other dogs are tested for how they handle being around other dogs. Mainly, can they ignore them - a concepts a lot of owners just don't seem to get. No, your dog is not being tested on whether or not he is friendly to other dogs, he's being tested on whether or not he can ignore other dogs. A lot of "friendly" dogs fail because they can't leave the other dog alone.

Unfortunately some of these owners never quite understand why their 'friendly' dog failed, and instead of taking on board the suggestions from the testers, they just blame the test.

They think that because Bates didn't react to their dog shoving their face in his face (or up his butt) that it's somehow okay for their dog to behave that way. What they don't see are the very clear signals that my dog is giving that the space invader dog has about 5 seconds to get a clue or he will be given one.
They don't see me intervening with a happy "let's go" to Bates and moving him away and rewarding him for tolerating the rudeness.
They don't realize that Bates has innumerable 'spoons' and a quick treat and a moment with me he's perfectly fine. A dog with fewer spoons would end up dumping all sorts of stress hormones and be set back for days with that sort of interaction.

And how on earth has this thread gone on this long without Suzanne Clothier's wonderful "He Just Wants to Say HI"?
http://suzanneclothier.com/pdfs/He Just Wants To Say Hi.pdf


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> *
> Besoeker is the only one responsible for what he has written on this thread and the other one. None of us wrote those words.


And accept responsibility for what I wrote. But not for what was misquoted.
But no big deal.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2016)

Besoeker said:


> And accept responsibility for what I wrote. But not for what was misquoted.
> But no big deal.


Ha ha! That's just too awesome. The only one who has totally messed up quotes throughout this thread is you.

No one has misquoted you. If you hit the little arrow next to the username for the quote, it takes you straight to that post. It's incredibly easy to see the original post and if the quote has been changed or not.

No one has misquoted you. But go on, find another excuse, your efforts are highly entertaining


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

I must admit that this thread has carried me through the week in work.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I think the sad thing about this thread is the fact that this type of attitude walks amoungst us daily and is the reason many *responsible* dog walkers avoid nice public areas...so many that believe it is the job of the environment and others dogs to exercise their own...

What do I know, I need to bond more with my dog


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> No one has misquoted you. If you hit the little arrow next to the username for the quote, it takes you straight to that post. It's incredibly easy to see the original post and if the quote has been changed or not.


Yes, you'd think it would be idiot proof.
So we must have some clever idiots here.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> I think the sad thing about this thread is the fact that this type of attitude walks amoungst us daily and is the reason many *responsible* dog walkers avoid nice public areas...so many that believe it is the job of the environment and others dogs to exercise their own...
> 
> What do I know, I need to bond more with my dog


Except I would urge responsible dog owners with dogs who can handle it to try and get out there as much as possible, because what ends up happening is that more and more irresponsible/careless dog owners end up out in public and the public perception of dog owners gets skewed and we end up with few and fewer access places for our dogs.

We need to get out there as ambassadors for responsible dog ownership. Especially you guys in the UK where so far, you don't have the hugely restrictive leash laws and public access rules we have here.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

ouesi said:


> We need to get out there as ambassadors for responsible dog ownership. Especially you guys in the UK where so far, you don't have the hugely restrictive leash laws and public access rules we have here.


Totally agree.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Except I would urge responsible dog owners with dogs who can handle it to try and get out there as much as possible, because what ends up happening is that more and more irresponsible/careless dog owners end up out in public and the public perception of dog owners gets skewed and we end up with few and fewer access places for our dogs.
> 
> We need to get out there as ambassadors for responsible dog ownership. Especially you guys in the UK where so far, you don't have the hugely restrictive leash laws and public access rules we have here.


I think I'll stick to my lonely isolated spots away from the idiots. The water you can see in the distance is the pond in my thread on focus, we didn't meet a single person or dog in 2 hours.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Besoeker said:


> Totally agree.


But not those who let their dogs chase joggers/cyclists and park maintenance trucks or allow them to bother on lead dogs or steal their balls. That is not being a good ambassador.


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> But not those who let their dogs chase joggers/cyclists and park maintenance trucks or allow them to bother on lead dogs or steal their balls. That is not being a good ambassador.


Perhaps you should read what I posted rather than make up your own version of it.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Besoeker said:


> Perhaps you should read what I posted rather than make up your own version of it.


You keep saying this, but we all know what you posted, as it has been reposted every single time you say this.

I feel sad that you have come on here and wound everyone up so much, as you (we all) can learn so much from so many people on here; but your attitude very much points to the fact that you got cross when we didn't congratulate you for having an excellent relationship with your dog and immediately shut down. Pretty much like a dog actually, if you shout at it, it will shut down and then anything you try and train it won't have a hope in hell of getting through. I hope that, at some point, you can calm down, skim through the bits where we're cross with you and pick up some very useful tips. Your dog is beautiful and I'm sure that you want him to be as happy as possible. If increasing that happiness means unbending a little and accepting that some people on here do know infinitely more than you, then so be it.

If you want to know anything, just ask, people are more than happy to pass on their wisdom, but I suspect it may take time for people to trust you after your behaviour on the last two threads. I know it sounds like I'm lecturing you, but that isn't the intention; it's just incredibly frustrating and saddening to watch the course of events where your back is up and you refuse to take advice or back down. Maybe a little PF holiday is needed.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Besoeker said:


> Perhaps you should read what I posted rather than make up your own version of it.


Posted by you on another forum dated 5 April 2016.

Max is mostly off the lead except wher there is road traffic. I've met a few dog owners, and others, who don't like it that he is off the lead and express their view in no uncertain terms using words that they probably can't even spell.
Oops, that was a bit catty for a dog thread...........

*My main problem is that he has a tendancy to chase anything moving. It can be the park maintenance truck, cyclists, or joggers*. He is getting better and we are getting better at reading the signs.

and this on 4 April

I'm sure you are right. We walk a lot and come across lots of other dogs. *The most bothersome are those on leads and straining. If you can't let your dog run free, why bother having one?*
For whatever reason and it may be perceptions about breed as you have suggested, most take to Max despite him being a pretty big dog. Not quite like xxxx or xxx dog but still a bit of a beast. His body about 1.2 metres (4ft) end to end even excluding that long bushy appendage.. 
Maybe demeanor? He sees a bunch of kids, flops down on the grass, wags his tail, and lets them come to him

Perhaps you should try and remember what you have said before accusing people of making up their own version


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> You keep saying this, but we all know what you posted, as it has been reposted every single time you say this..


OK. Let's keep this simple.
Where did I post that I let him chase maintenace truck?
That's just *one *of the innacurate accusations you have made.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Besoeker said:


> OK. Let's keep this simple.
> Where did I post that I let him chase maintenace truck?
> That's just *one *of the innacurate accusations you have made.


See above

Here is the link to the thread just in case you have forgotten

http://www.politicsforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=46526&start=380


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> See above
> 
> Here is the link to the thread just in case you have forgotten
> 
> http://www.politicsforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=46526&start=380


Dis post that I let him chase the maintenance truck because that's what claimed.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think I'll stick to my lonely isolated spots away from the idiots. The water you can see in the distance is the pond in my thread on focus, we didn't meet a single person or dog in 2 hours.


That's my kind of walk. I agree with Ouesi, but with a reactive dog and so many local idiots, I tend to leap at the chance to walk alone.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Muttly said:


> That's my kind of walk. I agree with Ouesi, but with a reactive dog and so many local idiots, I tend to leap at the chance to walk alone.


I also agree with Ouesi and have the sort of dog who I can easily take out and about in public and is rarely a bother. But other people and their dogs make it so much of an effort when I've got Jack with me. Regardless of whether I have him in the pram or on my back there's always that risk someones dog is going to slam into us and he'll end up hurt. So I tend to stick to quieter walks where we don't really see that many people for the most part. Or road walks which aren't as much fun for any of us.

So yup, those friendly dogs who just want to play even have an adverse effect on those of us who own friendly dogs who like a meet and greet. For what it's worth, I don't actually mind the dogs who come up, have a sniff and move on, it's the ones who won't take no for an answer when it comes to playing.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2016)

So nothing like this then? 









I have to say, that was enough for me for a while. We do love our isolated walks but it's good to get out there sometimes too.... If for no other reason than to remind yourself why you avoid other dog walkers!


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> I also agree with Ouesi and have the sort of dog who I can easily take out and about in public and is rarely a bother. But other people and their dogs make it so much of an effort when I've got Jack with me. Regardless of whether I have him in the pram or on my back there's always that risk someones dog is going to slam into us and he'll end up hurt. So I tend to stick to quieter walks where we don't really see that many people for the most part. Or road walks which aren't as much fun for any of us.
> 
> So yup, those friendly dogs who just want to play even have an adverse effect on those of us who own friendly dogs who like a meet and greet. For what it's worth, I don't actually mind the dogs who come up, have a sniff and move on, it's the ones who won't take no for an answer when it comes to playing.


Exactly, I'm fed up of people forcing their friendly dogs on Muttly. I don't care if your dog is 'friendly and wants to play', we have the right to NOT meet you or your dog! Now sod off :Finger
Stupid woman last night, Muttly stops for a poo and woman and dog getting closer and closer. So I clear up and try to move on quickly, (Muttly on lead) this woman lets her dog bound over (even though she was going the opposite way to me and could see we were walking briskly away from her). Dogs comes and sniffs, Muttly lets out a loud growl near his ear, dog trotts off.
I look back after a min to make sure they have gone the other way and the woman is bent down cuddling her dog in an 'it's ok my precious baby' type of way. 

Just F*** off. Muttly told him too and he listened. End of. So yeah I like to walk alone.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Besoeker said:


> Deary, deary, deary me...........what a useless, ignorant, irresponsible, ill-educated dog owner I am.............
> How could I have possibly wilfully allowed this risky and potentially lethal encounter to have taken place yesterday evening.:,,,,,,,,,
> 
> 
> ...


Ahh, I wondered which one was yours. Thanks for the heads up that he's the black and white one ........... cleared that up nicely.

I do notice that your OFFLEAD dog is standing over an ONLEAD dog.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Posted by you on another forum dated 5 April 2016.
> 
> Max is mostly off the lead except wher there is road traffic. I've met a few dog owners, and others, who don't like it that he is off the lead and express their view in no uncertain terms using words that they probably can't even spell.
> Oops, that was a bit catty for a dog thread...........
> ...


I wonder if this dog is chasing things because he is not mentally fulfilled, walking miles is all well and good but all you're doing is exercising the body rather than the mind.

So he is chasing joggers and knicking balls in order to make his entertainment!:Wideyed

This thread has been very entertaining all day at work


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## Besoeker (Mar 28, 2016)

Sweety said:


> Ahh, I wondered which one was yours. Thanks for the heads up that he's the black and white one ........... cleared that up nicely.
> 
> I do notice that your OFFLEAD dog is standing over an ONLEAD dog.


Standing *beside*.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

This is how I always treat unknown dogs. Bear is placed back on his lunge line and placed in to a sit stay whilst the other dog passes. Easy for everyone involved.

You can see him giving the eye because he had spotted that the approaching dog was his girlfriend Willow the standard poodle. He was rewarded and then after I had spoken to willow's owner they were both let off for some fun together!

Like I said previously that to me is just being a responsible dog owner. I could let bear off and think he'll be fine because he isn't usually confrontational. However, I don't know if the dog we bump in to is reactive, dog aggressive, ill, old or just not wanting such a big dog near them. I don't like second guessing other people's animals, it isn't my place.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Wow, that was a mammoth read!


ouesi said:


> This is Bates, he gives appropriate corrections with fair warning, but if the dog doesn't gracefully accept that correction, watch out.
> 
> If it were Breez, that's it, the other dog might as well keep the toy because *she won't touch anything that has strange dog spit on it*. So it wouldn't matter how quickly the dog gave the toy back, as far as Breez is concerned, it's contaminated and she won't touch it (can't say I blame her really).


This amused me because Rogue is very precious about 'other dog spit' too- to the extent that drinking from water bowls in public places is a no-no for her.



MiffyMoo said:


> He hasn't said whether he does any training with his dog, but I know that my two are immeasurably happier when we do short bursts of intensive training, and it really has improved our relationship. No longer are they at home waiting to go out any more; I sometimes believe they get far more enjoyment out of being made to think than they do going out on a walk.


Rogue is the same, she loves her walks but in the last 6 months she has really started to enjoy our training sessions.

It's taken a lot of years but I think, maybe, just maybe, she has finally started to bond with me


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

simplysardonic said:


> It's taken a lot of years but I think, maybe, just maybe, she has finally started to bond with me


You should find her recall improving then


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

tomo13 said:


> You should find her recall improving then


That depends, she still appears to have a slightly stronger bond with bodies of water & anything that smells of fox poo


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

simplysardonic said:


> That depends, she still appears to have a slightly stronger bond with bodies of water & anything that smells of fox poo


When it comes to fox poo, I find running towards them, frantically waving my arms and wailing like a banshee works


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

simplysardonic said:


> Wow, that was a mammoth read!
> 
> This amused me because Rogue is very precious about 'other dog spit' too- to the extent that drinking from water bowls in public places is a no-no for her


Falcor goes even further, he wont even share water bowls with the other dogs in the house, his has to be upstairs and in a glass bowl, dontcha know


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

At least your dogs will drink out of their bowls. My pup has decided it is far more fun to paw the water out of the bowl and then try and drink it off the floor


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2016)

tomo13 said:


> At last your dogs will drink out of their bowls. My pup has decided it is far more fun to paw the water out of the bowl and then try and drink it off the floor


Sounds like you need to work on your bond, just saying'...


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2016)

simplysardonic said:


> This amused me because Rogue is very precious about 'other dog spit' too- to the extent that drinking from water bowls in public places is a no-no for her.


Yeah, Breez would never share a public dog bowl. 
She's so bad, she won't take treats from me if I have just fed another dog and my hand smells like the other dog. 
Now, I can put treats in my mouth and spit them to her and that's just fine, and she'll take a treat after Bates, but other dog contamination is a real thing. 
She's a total diva....


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Pappychi said:


> View attachment 267779
> 
> 
> This is how I always treat unknown dogs. Bear is placed back on his lunge line and placed in to a sit stay whilst the other dog passes. Easy for everyone involved.
> ...


Oh I love Bear!!! and so would Muttly!


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

tomo13 said:


> When it comes to fox poo, I find running towards them, frantically waving my arms and wailing like a banshee works


Yup, although sometimes if it's really good poo, he will scrabble as quickly as possible to get as much in his mouth as he can :Yuck


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> I was out with Spen a few weeks ago and had the pram with me. Some woman with a labradoodle let hers run up and run all around us trying to get Spen (who was on lead) to play. I'm then trying to stop 2 large dogs, one of which is attached to me by walking belt, from slamming into the pram and knocking it down. When she finally reaches me what does she say? "oh you've got your hands full there!"* Well I f*cking wouldn't have if you'd keep your dog under control!*


But there are no quotation marks around that! Really, the situation of people allowing their dogs to come charging over to other dogs (either on lead or off), invading their games, stealing their toys or just bouncing all over them, (after all, they "only want to play") is never going to improve unless their owners are told in no uncertain terms that it's not acceptable. Thinking *Well I f*cking wouldn't have if you'd keep your dog under control *isn't going to help. You have to SAY it, shout it. Once you get over the fear of speaking out, the walking away from confrontation, it's incredibly liberating and really quite enjoyable. I had a good barney yesterday with the owner of an out of control young lab who charged up to my lot who were happily playing ball with me. The dog ignored her attempts at recall, and I was clearly telling the dog to shove off. When she came over to collect it, I told her the dog should be wearing a collar and tag by law - her response was "but she's with me". I said "yeah? - it's been with me just now, and she should be on a lead as well, as you can't control her", she said "well yours are off lead"; I said "my dogs aren't going round charging up to people who don't want them around". I might have gone on to mention how seriously overweight her dog was for a young one, but she'd put on a slip lead and gone.
It was the 4th time we'd had strange dogs charging up in 2 days; and happened again on the same walk with a Viszla.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Burrowzig said:


> But there are no quotation marks around that! Really, the situation of people allowing their dogs to come charging over to other dogs (either on lead or off), invading their games, stealing their toys or just bouncing all over them, (after all, they "only want to play") is never going to improve unless their owners are told in no uncertain terms that it's not acceptable. Thinking Well I f*cking wouldn't have if you'd keep your dog under control isn't going to help. *You have to SAY it, shout it. Once you get over the fear of speaking out, the walking away from confrontation, it's incredibly liberating and really quite enjoyable.* I had a good barney yesterday with the owner of an out of control young lab who charged up to my lot who were happily playing ball with me. The dog ignored her attempts at recall, and I was clearly telling the dog to shove off. When she came over to collect it, I told her the dog should be wearing a collar and tag by law - her response was "but she's with me". I said "yeah? - it's been with me just now, and she should be on a lead as well, as you can't control her", she said "well yours are off lead"; I said "my dogs aren't going round charging up to people who don't want them around". I might have gone on to mention how seriously overweight her dog was for a young one, but she'd put on a slip lead and gone.
> It was the 4th time we'd had strange dogs charging up in 2 days; and happened again on the same walk with a Viszla.


The problem with this is that the people who are happy for their dogs to run around looking for other dogs to play with don't see this as a problem, but they do see your reactive dogs as a problem, so telling them that they're wrong goes in one ear and out the other, and generally leaves you fuming and them with another story on the rude lady in the park with the dogs who are so horrible and out of control that they have to be kept away from others.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> You have to SAY it, shout it


Last time I tried that I was physically assaulted (head butted and punched around the head)...
Whilst I agree with your sentiment I personally leave things like that to the braver


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

MiffyMoo said:


> The problem with this is that the people who are happy for their dogs to run around looking for other dogs to play with don't see this as a problem, but they do see your reactive dogs as a problem, so telling them that they're wrong goes in one ear and out the other, and generally leaves you fuming and them with another story on the rude lady in the park with the dogs who are so horrible and out of control that they have to be kept away from others.


I guess it works better with my dogs that will move back when told to, and stay.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Last time I tried that I was physically assaulted (head butted and punched around the head)...
> Whilst I agree with your sentiment I personally leave things like that to the braver


Are you a bloke? It's much rarer for women to be assaulted, or do the assaulting.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Last time I tried that I was physically assaulted (head butted and punched around the head)...
> Whilst I agree with your sentiment I personally leave things like that to the braver


 Oh my God, that's terrifying! That sort of thing is what will keep us seeking out quiet boltholes in the middle of nowhere. They may be a pain to get to, but at least we don't have to deal with people


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> But there are no quotation marks around that! Really, the situation of people allowing their dogs to come charging over to other dogs (either on lead or off), invading their games, stealing their toys or just bouncing all over them, (after all, they "only want to play") is never going to improve unless their owners are told in no uncertain terms that it's not acceptable. Thinking *Well I f*cking wouldn't have if you'd keep your dog under control *isn't going to help. You have to SAY it, shout it. Once you get over the fear of speaking out, the walking away from confrontation, it's incredibly liberating and really quite enjoyable. I had a good barney yesterday with the owner of an out of control young lab who charged up to my lot who were happily playing ball with me. The dog ignored her attempts at recall, and I was clearly telling the dog to shove off. When she came over to collect it, I told her the dog should be wearing a collar and tag by law - her response was "but she's with me". I said "yeah? - it's been with me just now, and she should be on a lead as well, as you can't control her", she said "well yours are off lead"; I said "my dogs aren't going round charging up to people who don't want them around". I might have gone on to mention how seriously overweight her dog was for a young one, but she'd put on a slip lead and gone.
> It was the 4th time we'd had strange dogs charging up in 2 days; and happened again on the same walk with a Viszla.


I actually have no problem with speaking out, pointless as it usually is. She went on to say that her dog runs up to all others and just wants to play. My response to that was "yeah, so does this one, that's why he's on a lead, so he can't make a nuisance out of himself." She just shrugged and went on her way.

It feels even more pointless when your own dog quite clearly just wants to play. In their eyes at least. They just think you're a miserable git denying your dog the pleasure of running around with theirs. Thing is, if he had been off lead Spen would likely have not wanted to play at all! He goes for the "fool around" option on lead, it's rare he'll play with a strange dog off lead, he just wants to say hello and move on.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> Are you a bloke? It's much rarer for women to be assaulted, or do the assaulting.


No, I am very much a woman and was assaulted by a man...although my sex is irrelevant tbh.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh my God, that's terrifying! That sort of thing is what will keep us seeking out quiet boltholes in the middle of nowhere. They may be a pain to get to, but at least we don't have to deal with people


It happened over 2 years ago now, I still don't go to the same field it happened in, and I also avoid walking at the time it happened...
It effected me more mentally than physically because luckily the bloke hit like a girl


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> No, I am very much a woman and was assaulted by a man...although my sex is irrelevant tbh.


I thought you were a woman (as am I). I hope he was done for it. Gender isn't irrelevant in terms of statistics and the likelihood of a physical response though. Men are much more likely to headbut other men than unknown women.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> It happened over 2 years ago now, I still don't go to the same field it happened in, and I also avoid walking at the time it happened...
> It effected me more mentally than physically because luckily the bloke hit like a girl


I can imagine. I'm sure it took monumental strength of will to even get yourself out of the house, let alone anywhere near to where it happened.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> I hope he was done for it.


As the only witness was a 10 year old boy that I didn't want to drag through the process (it was bad enough the poor boy had to see it) and apart from my jaw being pushed out of line I didn't have very many visible injuries the police didn't do much beyond take my statement 
What scared me most was that bloke knew how to hit a woman (if you know what I mean)...

But yeah, my point was that sometimes confronting these people isn't the best way


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2016)

Unfortunately speaking up often has the same effect (or lack there of) as we have seen on this thread. 
Last loose dog we encountered was a very young puppy, happily doing the rounds around the lake, stopping to say hi to each group of people. Never mind that this is a state park with leash laws, the puppy didn’t even have a collar on (required by law). 
I scooped him up and started walking around the lake with him in my arms asking each group who he belonged to. Nobody.
Was about to put him in the car and take him to the park office when two men walked by with fishing rods, pup started scrambling to get out of my arms. I asked if he was theirs, they said yes. Not even worried that I had him in my arms, for all they know about to take him as mine!
I tried to nicely tell them there is a leash law in the park (he’s fine, he’s just a puppy), that he doesn’t have a collar or tags on so we don’t know who he belongs to (he always comes back), so I just shrugged, handed over the puppy and went on my way.
In hindsight I shouldn’t have bothered asking around, I should have just taken the puppy straight to the park office and let them fine the owners. 

One of my friends is a park ranger, and apparently it’s very common for dogs to get lost.
One, people ignore leash laws and let their dogs off leash. Two, they think their dog with poor recall is going to magically have good recall in the big wide open spaces of a state or national park. When the dog doesn’t, and on top of that is disoriented in a new place, they get lost. Then the owners (often out of state) have to leave and the dog is still not back. So they leave contact information with the rangers in case the dog shows back up. Which isn’t often, especially not smaller dogs in predator territory  It’s insane....


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

ouesi said:


> One of my friends is a park ranger, and apparently it's very common for dogs to get lost.
> One, people ignore leash laws and let their dogs off leash. Two, they think their dog with poor recall is going to magically have good recall in the big wide open spaces of a state or national park. When the dog doesn't, and on top of that is disoriented in a new place, they get lost. Then the owners (often out of state) have to leave and the dog is still not back. So they leave contact information with the rangers in case the dog shows back up. Which isn't often, especially not smaller dogs in predator territory  It's insane....


That's heartbreaking. I often have romantic images of going hiking with my two, and somehow, not only do they not gallop off after the first leaf rustle, never to be seen again, but they also pose for award winning photos that shoot me to International fame and riches, which means that I can continue travelling the world with them, taking awesome photos.

Alas, mine are arseholes who would have me charging around the mountains, desperately shrieking their names. High possibility of none of us ever being seen again.


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## tomo13 (Oct 27, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> No, I am very much a woman and was assaulted by a man...although my sex is irrelevant tbh.


My wifes hairdresser was out walking her little dog when a staffy came out of nowhere and pinned it to the floor. When the owner did show up she let him know that she wasn't happy and he came over and spat in her face.
Even worse, it turned out he was an ex professional boxer who had boxed for GB in the Olympics. Unbelievable.


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## Pappychi (Aug 12, 2015)

Muttly said:


> Oh I love Bear!!! and so would Muttly!


Thank you very much! He's a wuss when it comes to little dogs, he just looks at me like

'Mum I don't wants to break it'.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> Last time I tried that I was physically assaulted (head butted and punched around the head)...
> Whilst I agree with your sentiment I personally leave things like that to the braver


Holy crap! this is exactly why I don't say anything. Back in the day I would give my 2 pennies worth, but now the world is such a horrible place.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Pappychi said:


> Thank you very much! He's a wuss when it comes to little dogs, he just looks at me like
> 
> 'Mum I don't wants to break it'.


Aww! Bless him! My parents large Golden was like that with him at first, but he showed her he's a tough little bugger, now she's not afraid to pin him down with her giant paw lol


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Besoeker said:


> OK. As has been decreed here, I am an uneducated, ignorant troll with no idea about how to properly get my corrent do to interact witj others. And I'm 111 years old and a liar. Obviously
> 
> Just happens that I got a very shy, abandoned dog from a rescue centre.
> He is now a healthy happy chappie. He interacts with other dogs and people. All the local children love him and he sits down to get their cuddles. And a treat if their parents allow it.
> ...


The bolded bit...I dont think that is the case at all, I just think you got extremely lucky with the dog that you ended up rescuing. I have a dog the same. She has required no training, she is just a naturally obedient dog that falls perfectly into line with everything. My dog is a border collie, abandoned at a kill pound and is also very shy and timid but I absolutely take no credit for this, all the credit lies with her and her nature. In fact, I often forget about her when dealing with my other dogs as I know she will just be behaving exactly as I require, without a word from me.

However, she doesnt chase joggers or cyclists and she doesnt join in other dogs games, despite her being totally ball obsessed. But anyway, could the laid back approach I take with her be applied to my other 2 dogs? It could, but there would be a hell of a fallout and probably 2 dead dogs on my conscience. My point is you appear to have a very blase approach to dog ownership, which clearly works to some extent with this dog (at the expense of other amenity users I will add) but it would never work with many, many other dogs.

I had never looked at this thread before today and I have sat here both shaking my head and laughing at the same time (anything that reaches more than 3 pages is always worth a look!) There sure was plenty to quote but I decided on this one as it appeared it was about the only one that got away.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm with Leanne. My rottie cross was the most obedient dog I've ever met, once he knew something he never refused to do it if asked, even to the point of lying down in water that was over his head when he did so (that wasn't intentional, I'd seen horses coming and automatically cued both dogs to lie down not realising Wolf was that lacking in common sense lol). I thought I was a fantastic dog owner, that this training lark was easy, that anyone whose dogs had issues was an idiot who didn't have a clue what they were doing. My collie was a reasonably well behaved dog too although nowhere near to the extent Wolf was.

Then I got Rupert. Humble pie wasn't in it.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Same here, this was my first dog, easy to train, stuck to us like glue, obedient, anti social with other dogs but kept away from themself and very healthy. We were lucky with our next one too - a rescue Old English Sheepdog and our first rottie but boy did we get some tricky ones after that  over 30 years and many dogs we ended up with Arthur pointer who is without doubt the biggest challenge of all of them. Rotties and GSDs no problem but pointers


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2016)

Oh, I was the world’s best dog trainer until the early 90’s when a little mutt puppy showed up in our lives. About 6 months in I cried uncle and realized I needed help. Showed up to a well known local trainer, and in the course of the consultation said mutt cocked his leg on my calf and peed a stream down my leg, perfectly highlighted on the light colored jeans I was wearing. Yeah...
He was soon followed by a malamute who used to shriek and wail at the mere sight of another dog and then wheel around and redirect bite on to whatever was closest, either me or our other dog. Literally traffic stopping behavior. Cars would pull over to see if I was okay. Thank god this was the days before camera phones. 

Those two alone taught me bucket loads for which I am forever grateful. 

A smooth sea never made a skilled sailor.


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