# Tried a new headcollar today...



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Just thought I'd post this in case it's of interest to others with very reactive dogs.

Although Dex is so much better, he goes beserk if we see a cat or a horse. I find the Dogmatic fab *but* Dex slips between two sizes.

So today I tried a Gencon headcollar - as opposed to the Gencon All In One. I used the latter for a while and it was fab but the all in one part (the lead) was just too flimsy for such a strong dog.

The Gencon headcollar works in exactly the same way but you attach your own lead. Worked a treat - Dex walked beautifully and we even ran into a cat and I was able to remain totally in control :thumbup:

*Because it does tighten a bit if the dog pulls/lunges I don't recommend this headcollar for dogs that are pulling and lunging a lot.*

However, if like me you have a very strong, big dog that walks nicely most of the time, and you need that bit of extra help on occasion, then this headcollar gets a good rating from me.

In case you're wondering what it looks like when on: it really looks just like a Gentle Leader, as it's just two loops. But it attaches at the side - not under the dog's jaw.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Ha ha, you sound like me, I've tried all sorts of collars, harness's, head collars and 'all in one's' - in fact just sent them off to Bosnia for rescue dogs.

I can't remember what one it was, either gentle leader or gencon but Marty backed out of it and legged it up the road. It's not the pulling forward that worries me, it's the backing out when there isn't the tension and it's looser. That was a scare so I stick with the dogmatic and halti link attached to the harness's now - just in case.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Ha ha, you sound like me, I've tried all sorts of collars, harness's, head collars and 'all in one's' - in fact just sent them off to Bosnia for rescue dogs.
> 
> I can't remember what one it was, either gentle leader or gencon but Marty backed out of it and legged it up the road. It's not the pulling forward that worries me, it's the backing out when there isn't the tension and it's looser. That was a scare so I stick with the dogmatic and halti link attached to the harness's now - just in case.


LOL yep I reckon I've now tried every headcollar in the UK bar two  I've put together a bag of old headcollars and normal collars and am giving it to a contact at a local rescue. I never thought of sending it to rescues abroad - what a good idea!

When we're in busy areas I attach the other end of the double ended lead to Dex's collar, for extra security.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

A friend on FB Mal group has just got a Mal from Bosnia, treated real bad he was but has settled in like you wouldn't believe with his bitch Mal and male Chow. He's only six months old and is so cute. The guy asked if anyone had any leads or collars as they use string out there because no one donates to the rescue - they treat dogs so badly it's hard to read some of the posts.He got loads of stuff and packed it all in the car when he went to collect his boy. The rescue left a message of thanks once they got it all back home. The things they do to dogs in other countries is unbelievable, we think it's bad here but out there they are torturous and no one gives a damn!


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

I dunno about the gencon really, as I'm sure that with a reactive and strong breed of dog it could really really hurt the dog. It only takes one lunge to hurt it I assume. On another note I wish the Dogmatic did a 2L sizing for awkward lurcher heads.
Also I thought you never used to like these? :lol:


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> I dunno about the gencon really, as I'm sure that with a reactive and strong breed of dog it could really really hurt the dog. It only takes one lunge to hurt it I assume. On another note I wish the Dogmatic did a 2L sizing for awkward lurcher heads.
> Also I thought you never used to like these? :lol:


Quite a while back I posted about my change of mind on the Gencon - if you care to check the threads I've started you'll see it )

The Gencon shouldn't hurt a dog because it attaches at the side and not beneath the jaw like many other headcollars - so there is no turning sideways of the dog's head.

I use it to **stop** Dex from occasionally lunging when we encounter one of his 'big' triggers.


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Quite a while back I posted about my change of mind on the Gencon - if you care to check the threads I've started you'll see it )
> 
> The Gencon shouldn't hurt a dog because it attaches at the side and not beneath the jaw like many other headcollars - so there is no turning sideways of the dog's head.
> 
> I use it to **stop** Dex from occasionally lunging when we encounter one of his 'big' triggers.


But how do you use it to **stop** him? From what I have seen of the Gencon brand is that it is like a slip lead with a nose loop with unlimited tightening. That would hurt the dog if they lunged wouldn't it? Or cause a bad association?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> But how do you use it to **stop** him? From what I have seen of the Gencon brand is that it is like a slip lead with a nose loop with unlimited tightening. That would hurt the dog if they lunged wouldn't it? Or cause a bad association?


No, not 'unlimited' tightening.

It does tighten a bit.

I use it to stop the lunges by holding the lead closer to the dog when we encounter a trigger. This effectively stops the lunges.

By combining 'watch me' and using a Gencon, I have managed to reduce the lunges by 95%. This represents more of an improvement than I ever thought possible, frankly.

It's made a huge difference to our walks.


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> No, not 'unlimited' tightening.
> 
> It does tighten a bit.
> 
> ...


Its good that its helped but I don't understand how it is better than a headcollar that leads under the chin? Surely you could hold the lead closer in that situation too? The only thing that stops the tightening is the dogs face itself and I think it must dig in and surely the loop around the neck tightens like a slip lead? If a dog was to pull into that wouldn't it start to cough?
But I can tell that whatever I say is not gonna mean a thing so I shall let you get on with it.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> Its good that its helped but I don't understand how it is better than a headcollar that leads under the chin? Surely you could hold the lead closer in that situation too? The only thing that stops the tightening is the dogs face itself and I think it must dig in and surely the loop around the neck tightens like a slip lead? If a dog was to pull into that wouldn't it start to cough?
> B*ut I can tell that whatever I say is not gonna mean a thing so I shall let you get on with it*.


But why should your points mean anything when my dog is happy to wear the Gencon and when it works and he walks beautifully in it 98% of the time...?

Sorry, I genuinely don't understand why you think I would reconsider using this headcollar. I've tried virtually every headcollar available in the UK. Wouldn't you agree that I am the best judge of what works for my dog - not you...?


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Remember just because something appears to *work* doesn't mean it isn't *unpleasant* for the dog.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> Remember just because something appears to *work* doesn't mean it isn't *unpleasant* for the dog.


LOL LOL fortunately I have a very vocal dog and when I've tried to use headcollars in the past that he didn't like, he barked and backed away when I went to put them on.

That's one of the reasons I've tried so many - I wanted to fine one that he was happy to wear.

There is also the fact that I have to use what works best, because we live near a farm with a riding school attached. On two occasions Dex has managed to jerk the lead from my hand and charge the horses - it was horrendous. So I have to use something that ensures this CANNOT happen.

The Gencon headcollar, combined with a double ended Ezy-dog lead, is a very, very robust combination. I recommend it to other owners of big, strong, reactive dogs. Which brings us right back to my reason for starting this thread in the first place...


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> LOL LOL fortunately I have a very vocal dog and when I've tried to use headcollars in the past that he didn't like, he barked and backed away when I went to put them on.
> 
> That's one of the reasons I've tried so many - I wanted to fine one that he was happy to wear.
> 
> ...


Have you tried *prolonged* desensitisation training for all of these headcollars? As well as to things he reacts to? The watch me command is good in some situations, but it doesn't always help the dog face the problem.
Have you tried BAT training?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> Have you tried *prolonged* desensitisation training for all of these headcollars? As well as to things he reacts to? The watch me command is good in some situations, but it doesn't always help the dog face the problem.
> Have you tried BAT training?


Well, the 'watch me' has worked for us, because whereas before Dex would lunge countless times, every time he saw something 'odd', now he hardly ever lunges because he looks at me instead when he's unsure/scared.

He's walking really nicely, so I'm not about to change anything right now.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Unless the Gencon fastens directly behind the head it will apply a twist or sideways pull on the neck. Combined with the tightening - don't like the idea of them at all. Given how strong you say Dexter is I would worry about the amount of force he could put into a lunge and into his neck as a result.

Also if he can pull the lead from your hand that easily I wouldn't go anywhere with him without him actually attached to your waist - you might have to grab a passing lamp-post though by the sounds of him. 

Have you read Control Unleashed?


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

I was just about to ask the same. Using various headcollars might give more control but have you tried any methods other than watch. Watch essentially is management. Headcollars i dont knock but they are a management tool too. I would want to densitise my dog to the things which send him potty. I am trying. I know my dog is not as big and strong as Dex but still try alongside the managing stress.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Werehorse said:


> Unless the Gencon fastens directly behind the head it will apply a twist or sideways pull on the neck. Combined with the tightening - don't like the idea of them at all. Given how strong you say Dexter is I would worry about the amount of force he could put into a lunge and into his neck as a result.
> 
> Also if he can pull the lead from your hand that easily I wouldn't go anywhere with him without him actually attached to your waist - you might have to grab a passing lamp-post though by the sounds of him.
> 
> Have you read Control Unleashed?


The Gencon does not apply any twist or sideways pull on the neck.

To use a waist attachment would make no sense as I would have less control and could be pulled over. The two incidents with the horses happened because I wasn't using a sufficiently strong lead in one case, and in the other he had no headcollar on.

I totally appreciate that some of you may not like the Gencon. That's fine - just don't use it


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) | Official site for BAT: dog-friendly training for reactivity (aggression, fear, frustration) by Grisha Stewart, MA

^May be very helpful to you and Dex. It has helped me, I have a very strong lurch (weighs the same as Dex) who used to be and still is to an extent quite frightened of alot of things. This combined with a chin leading headcollar helped massively.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

GingerRogers said:


> I was just about to ask the same. Using various headcollars might give more control but have you tried any methods other than watch. Watch essentially is management. Headcollars i dont knock but they are a management tool too. I would want to densitise my dog to the things which send him potty. I am trying. I know my dog is not as big and strong as Dex but still try alongside the managing stress.


Yes I have managed to desensitise Dex to many things e.g high viz clothing.

I don't really mind if 'watch me' is 'management' - I now have a dog who is calm in the face of things which previously threw him into a frenzy of nerves.

If such a big improvement is '*management'* then that's fine by me!


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Yes I have managed to desensitise Dex to many things e.g high viz clothing.
> 
> I don't really mind if 'watch me' is 'management' - I now have a dog who is calm in the face of things which previously threw him into a frenzy of nerves.
> 
> If such a big improvement is '*management'* then that's fine by me!


Well if you've desensitised him to High Vis clothing, that just **PROVES** that you can move past the 'Watch me' Command.

Good luck with it.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> Well if you've desensitised him to High Vis clothing, that just **PROVES** that you can move past the 'Watch me' Command.
> 
> Good luck with it.


Thank you and also for the link. I have in fact been looking at BAT for a while but the results with 'watch me' have been so good lately I haven't added anything new to the mix....watch this space though 

Just realised what the time is 

'Night all


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## Guest (May 16, 2013)

Sorry, I can't resist 
I just find it funny that on one thread you were rather concerned about how one would *know* for sure that taping natural ears wasn't uncomfortable to the dog, yet on this thread, you're very sure that a head halter that seems to me like it has unlimited slip is not uncomfortable to your dog. 

I'm not a fan of head halters period, don't like 'em - JMO. I think a lot of dogs find them far more unpleasant than we would care to admit (the fact that they need so much desensitization should be a clue), and I think there is serious injury potential with them especially when used in ignorance. 

That said, I have no issue with folks making an educated decision to use one on their own dog. I don't want to be told how I can and can't manage/train my dog, I don't imagine others do either. 

All I would say to you OBYL is to read up on BAT for sure, and definitely look in to impulse control exercises like in "Control Unleashed", long-term that's probably going to be your best bet.


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

Must admit, don't think there is one solution for all.... I have tried most (and sent a bag to the local rescue). For my monster we have gone back to the gentle leader, it fits and he has never backed out of it or got his paw caught in it 

Now, I always put it on him BUT I only attach the lead when he is pulling I.e. for prey. Most of the time the lead is on his harness or collar, but it does give me the control when needed.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Sorry, I can't resist
> I just find it funny that on one thread you were rather concerned about how one would *know* for sure that taping natural ears wasn't uncomfortable to the dog, yet on this thread, you're very sure that a head halter that seems to me like it has unlimited slip is not uncomfortable to your dog.
> 
> I'm not a fan of head halters period, don't like 'em - JMO. I think a lot of dogs find them far more unpleasant than we would care to admit (the fact that they need so much desensitization should be a clue), and I think there is serious injury potential with them especially when used in ignorance.
> ...


To clarify:

As I already stated, there is no _'unlimited'_ tightening with this headcollar. Nor _'unlimited slip'_. Not quite sure where this notion has come from - certainly *not *something I have stated nor witnessed with the Gencon.

Also, *what* 'desensitisation' to the headcollar? Dex didn't seem to need any!* I put it on, we went out the door, and had a lovely walk with Dex walking beautifully beside me *EXCEPT when we met a cat which was when the Gencon allowed me to remain in control and keep him calmer.

The desensitisation that I've done was to high viz, as I mentioned, plus several other things.

*Now that being said, as my original post stated I think - because the Gencon does tighten a bit I would not recommend it for dogs that pull or lunge a lot.*

Re your analogy to using glue on dogs' ears:

A headcollar is - _*for some of us*_ - a necessary tool in order to continue training our dogs and remain in control and then reward for calmer behaviour.

Gluing ears is NOT *necessary* for ANY DOG.

It is something that some people do because they want their dog's ears to look a certain way.

Hardly a valid comparison.

Thank you for the advice re impulse control and yes I totally agree - I'm doing as much of this as I can


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

What a bizarre thread this turned into. OP is stating her dog is 110% better the the techniques/tools she has employed and all folk can say is "you dont wanna do it like that you wanna do it like this" odd.

If watch me works (to get dogs focus on you- is that not what we all want???????), and Dex no longer goes batshit at other dogs/hi viz etc then it works- perfect- if it aint broke dont fix it!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

lexiedhb said:


> what a bizarre thread this turned into. Op is stating her dog is 110% better the the techniques/tools she has employed and all folk can say is "you dont wanna do it like that you wanna do it like this" odd.
> 
> If watch me works (to get dogs focus on you- is that not what we all want???????), and dex no longer goes batshit at other dogs/hi viz etc then it works- perfect- if it aint broke dont fix it!


*Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I think what people have pointed out what you so regularly describe as a panacea _solution_ " watch me" is simply a management technique. there are methods that *may* with some work mean you no longer have to manage and encountering these things could no longer be an issue for you or Dex.

Of course it's up to you I think it's very nice of people to want to help as it seems on an almost daily basis we are hearing how strong and reactive Dex is.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> I think what people have pointed out what you so regularly describe as a panacea _solution_ " watch me" is simply a management technique. there are methods that *may* with some work mean you no longer have to manage and encountering these things could no longer be an issue for you or Dex.
> 
> Of course it's up to you I think it's very nice of people to want to help as it seems on an almost daily basis we are hearing how strong and reactive Dex is.


If you read my posts I have thanked - and meant it - people for their help and advice, including both LURCHER OWNER and OUESI.

Also, please do show me where I describe 'watch me' as a 'panacea' - all I have **ever** said is that it has worked well for *my *dog.

Finally - really, I post about Dex being reactive on an *'almost daily basis*'??? LOL LOL I'd love to see these 'almost daily' posts! Goodness - perhaps Dex has been using the computer and posting about himself without me realising  

Your post seems to imply that I'm somehow ungrateful for the advice offered. In fact nothing could be further from the truth!

I very often PM people to thank them for any advice or leave a 'visitor' message on their page. In this particular thread, I do rather feel as though a simple post about a tool I find helpful has turned into an analysis of how I walk my dog, though...

Regardless, I appreciate people recommending 'Control Unleashed' and will be sure to order it.


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

OBAYL you get top marks for diplomacy and tolerance from me! :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

planete said:


> OBAYL you get top marks for diplomacy and tolerance from me! :thumbsup::thumbsup:


LOL thank you


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

I was recommended the Gencon by another ES owner at a breed show a few weeks ago - I'll definitely be checking it out, I think! Thanks for the rec, OBYL - I figure if it works for you, who cares what anyone else thinks? We feed the dreaded Royal Canin after all, and Henry looks fabulous for it.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I think it depends how solid the *'watch me' *is and whether or not your girl will eventually relax.
> 
> *Dex is extremely reactive *and so for the last two years I avoided group dog walks and fun days etc. But once the *'watch me' *really was solid, I felt more confident and a few months back, we went on our first 'event'
> 
> ...





Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Headcollars - as with all equipment - must be fitted correctly in order to be comfortable for the dog. I too hate to see dogs wearing badly fitting headcollars and I don't understand how any owner remains unaware of this.
> 
> Harnesses are great but they don't work for all dogs and all problems, alas  I tried about five different ones with Dex and none gave me sufficient control when he got spooked and kicked off. * With a 35kg, highly reactive dog*, I have to use a headcollar - but I make sure that the slipline over the nose sits sufficiently low down not to ride up into his eyes.





Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I've been there - *Dex goes beserk at the sight of a horse* and on two occasions he's managed to jerk the lead from my hand and go racing after horses from a nearby farm.
> 
> Luckily the horses were well trained and just stood there calmly while Dex danced around them barking
> 
> I think all you can do is try and avoid letting him off lead anywhere there might be horses. Also work hard on the recall like me





Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Out of interest, how do you find the K9 Bridle? It's virtually the only headcollar I've never tried
> 
> Did you try a Dogmatic? If you take care to get the right size I do think this headcollar is superb.
> 
> ...





Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I really empathise with you, as *I have a reactive Lab *and on occasion he has been spooked and run at people, barking. Like you, I always apologise profusely and usually folk are fine.
> 
> However, I can also appreciate that if someone is out for a nice run/jog then it may be a real pain to have a dog suddenly charging at them - especially if that person is maybe already a bit wary of dogs...?
> 
> I think that, like me, you are going to have to work really really hard on getting a solid recall or a *'watch me' *





Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Is she food motivated?
> 
> If yes, then I would instigate a 'nothing in life is free' training programme. i.e. to get treats or food, your girl MUST first obey a command. It can be a 'sit' or a *'watch me' *or a recall but she MUST obey you first.
> 
> ...


well there's a few from the last couple of weeks alone.

If a headcollar is properly introduced and the dog desensitised the tantrums you describe simplpy shouldn't happen.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> well there's a few from the last couple of weeks alone.
> 
> If a headcollar is properly introduced and the dog desensitised the tantrums you describe simplpy shouldn't happen.


WOW. You have nothing better to do with your time than actually go hunting for any mentions I make of my dog being reactive????? Crikey. You need a hobby!

*The last post of mine you quote wasn't even about my own dog!*

What exactly is your problem? I put up what I thought was a positive thread, hoping it might help someone else, and THIS is your response???!

Get a life.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Thats good its working for you thats the main thing.

Personally I wouldn't use it as it's effectively like a slip lead round the neck from what I have seen of them , theres nothing stopping it to continue from tightening so in my mind you might as well put a choke chain on. Even more so on a dog who is reactive.

One thing as it sounds like you've tried quite a few head collars have you considered a front clip harness?

I know people who battled with head collars for years then tried the Tellington T Touch harness and now wouldn't touch a head collar with a barge pole.

Official Tellington TTouch Training Harness Designed by Sarah Fisher | xtradog.com


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> WOW. You have nothing better to do with your time than actually go hunting for any mentions I make of my dog being reactive????? Crikey. You need a hobby!
> 
> *The last post of mine you quote wasn't even about my own dog!*
> 
> ...


I know it wasn't about your dog thats why i marked it differently I thought terrible to advise ramming a headcollar on a dog and then ignore it till is shut down.

You asked me to prove that you were regularly saying Dex is strong and reactive... I simply spent 5 minutes doing what you asked.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> *WOW. You have nothing better to do with your time than actually go hunting for any mentions I make of my dog being reactive????? *Crikey. You need a hobby!
> 
> *The last post of mine you quote wasn't even about my own dog!*
> 
> ...


 TBF it doesn't take much actually, and you did say:

_LOL LOL I'd love to see these 'almost daily' posts! Goodness - perhaps Dex has been using the computer and posting about himself without me realising_

But that is not the point, the point is a few people have tried to give you some assistance so you no longer have to *rely* on a head collar and a watch me command but you choose to take offence, of course by all means use what works for you  but why get upset at people trying to help you move forward.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Thats good its working for you thats the main thing.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't use it as it's effectively like a slip lead round the neck from what I have seen of them , theres nothing stopping it to continue from tightening so in my mind you might as well put a choke chain on. Even more so on a dog who is reactive.
> 
> ...


Cheers for that link 

I did try a front clip harness and it helped a bit but not much. However, I have been looking at the xtradog one myself - in an ideal world I would much rather use a harness IF I could still have the control necessary when Dex is spooked.

I can see why you and one or two others are likening the Gencon to a sliplead but just to say it really doesn't tighten and keep tightening - it tightens a bit and then stops.

However, I will look again at the harness you've linked to. Cheers


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> I know it wasn't about your dog thats why i marked it differently I thought terrible to advise ramming a headcollar on a dog and then ignore it till is shut down.
> 
> You asked me to prove that you were regularly saying Dex is strong and reactive... I simply spent 5 minutes doing what you asked.


You stated that I posted about Dex being reactive on an 'almost daily' basis.* I do not and your comments have no relevance to this thread nor my original post. *

Nor did I ever advise 'ramming' a headcollar onto a dog!

Stop twisting my words.

The reality is that sometimes dogs do have tantrums - just like sometimes they refuse to eat and some folk say 'oh they're being fussy - leave the food down, when they're hungry they'll eat'.

Ultimately the owner has to decide the safest option for walking their dog.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

GingerRogers said:


> TBF it doesn't take much actually, and you did say:
> 
> _LOL LOL I'd love to see these 'almost daily' posts! Goodness - perhaps Dex has been using the computer and posting about himself without me realising_
> 
> But that is not the point, the point is a few people have tried to give you some assistance so you no longer have to *rely* on a head collar and a watch me command but you choose to take offence, of course by all means use what works for you  but why get upset at people trying to help you move forward.


But if a 'watch me' is working so well for my dog, why on earth would I change it right now???

I am genuinely confused as to WHY I would suddenly change something that has resulted in such better, calmer walks 

And I have not taken offence - I only took offence when MOONVIOLET decided she had nothing better to do with her time than start hunting down my posts - what business is it of hers how often I mention my dog? I mention him a lot less than some other folk on this site mention theirs.

I do the best I can with the skillset I have and the tools I have. If I was a more skilled, experienced dog owner than yes, I'd love to be able to walk Dex on a harness for instance. But the reality is that right now, the best I can do is use 'watch me' and a headcollar - that doesn't mean it will always be these things but for now, they are working well.

I have thanked people who have kindly posted links - where is that 'taking offence'???


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Cheers for that link
> 
> I did try a front clip harness and it helped a bit but not much. However, I have been looking at the xtradog one myself - in an ideal world I would much rather use a harness IF I could still have the control necessary when Dex is spooked.
> 
> ...


I have never used one so can't comment on personally experience but I have seen them being used - as theres no 'stopper' other than the dogs neck I cant really understand how it can not tighten.

But we will always disagree on that - Its just not something I would use point blank.

But considering you say you've tried near on every head collar in the UK I think that suggests somewhat that the method might not be working long term.

I don't know where you are in the country but Xtra dog had stall at All About Dog Shows - would give you a chance to try a harness on etc before buying.

Maybe email the Tellington T Touch people for advice on sizing as im sure they will help get the correct fit and advise on the Tellington T Touch method.

Im sure theres even Tellington T Touch courses to.

I have noticed you do describe Dex quite often as 'Big' and 'Strong'  and I wonder if sometimes a head collar had become a safety blanket sometimes as in because Dex can be a handful but I guess what I am trying to say is try to be open to different ideas.  I know every dog is different but my sister spent 2-3 years walking her dog completely on a head collar - a dog who possibly would attack certain types of dog out of fear if given the chance. Since she has been using the Tellington T Touch stuff her dog is literally a different dog and soooo much more relaxed not in a head collar.

Hope that taken in the light its meant to be taken in


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> But if a 'watch me' is working so well for my dog, why on earth would I change it right now???
> 
> I am genuinely confused as to WHY I would suddenly change something that has resulted in such better, calmer walks
> 
> ...


No one said you have to change anything, right here, right now, just suggested that there were ways in which you could change things in the future if you so wished. And it comes form people who have all been in your shoes with reactive dogs for one reason or another.

You do seem to be getting upset, a little .

And no one expects you not to mention your dog, thats what we are all here for  the relevant bit was how often you mention how reactive he is, if he is that reactive we were just trying point that you can move past his reactivity.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> I have never used one so can't comment on personally experience but I have seen them being used - as theres no 'stopper' other than the dogs neck I cant really understand how it can not tighten.
> 
> But we will always disagree on that - Its just not something I would use point blank.
> 
> ...


I know what you are saying and I appreciate it 

I am very open to other ideas and I often look rather enviously and wistfully at folk walking their dogs on harnesses!

My reason for trying so many heacollars was in a bid to fine one that Dex was comfortable in. The irony is, the Gencon is the one HE seems most happy in, in terms of happily sitting for me and putting his head through it etc and never, ever trying to rub it off when on walks.

Also there is a kind of 'stopper' on the Gencon headcollar - there is a big clip which determines how loose or tight the head part is. So one can fix it quite loosely and I do.

Now, that being said, I *do* take on board what a few kind people on here are saying and I'm going to look again at the harness you linked to. I've tried five harnesses over the past two years and none of them gave me enough control but I've never tried this one so who knows.....!

I do agree that a more experienced owner, or a good trainer, could probably have resolved Dex's reactivity by now and be walking him on a lead and half check collar. I looked into getting help from a trainer a few months back - it was someone who is meant to be really superb but the price was HORRIFIC. If I could afford it I would love to do it though.

I'm going to email the Tellington Touch folk though - that's a grand idea - cheers MILLIEPOOCHIE


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I do the best I can with the skillset I have and the tools I have. If I was a more skilled, experienced dog owner than yes, I'd love to be able to walk Dex on a harness for instance. But the reality is that right now, the best I can do is use 'watch me' and a headcollar - that doesn't mean it will always be these things but for now, they are working well.


Hear hear. Can't say fairer than that. I find your posts and feedback about headcollars really useful as I've been wrestling with some similar issues to you.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

staffgirl said:


> Hear hear. Can't say fairer than that. I find your posts and feedback about headcollars really useful as I've been wrestling with some similar issues to you.


Thank you 

In an ideal world, I'm guessing none of us would use headcollars - but the reality is I know I can't control my own dog without one - *yet.* Not if we see a horse or a cat.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Just want to say that I think it is fair enough to comment on a thread about a piece of equipment you feel is harmful even if the original poster is saying it has worked for them. I feel that the Gencon is a potentially harmful piece of equipment and I'm afraid that, for the sake of others reading, I decided that expressing my differing opinion on it would be of value. Open forum after all.

If someone came and started bigging up and electric shock collar (for example) I would feel the same. Most people on this forum aren't shy about stating that they disagree with something that they feel is harmful to animal welfare.

I feel that the original post and one afterward has mis-represented the action of the Gencon. There is a strong tightening action in this headcollar and there is a sideways action on the neck and head - it won't twist the head round as much as under the chin headcollars but it does pull sideways where the spine meets the skull. It is not something I would want a strong dog lunging into.

I feel that if a dog is lunging out of fear and reactivity then a headcollar which causes discomfort is only going to heighten that fear and reactivity in future, as a further negative association (pain/discomfort) is built into the encounter. In my opinion, not good news for anybody. However I can understand wanting control NOW rather than when it has been trained in and I don't know what the answer to that is - other than working really hard to avoid going over threshold while desensitising. I can understand wanting a safety net. BUT I really, really strongly dislike the Gencon and how it acts and I think it is fair enough that myself and others on this thread have expressed that.

I hope other people reading this thread as well as the original poster herself will take on-board a little of the reasons for the differing opinions expressed here.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Now, that being said, I *do* take on board what a few kind people on here are saying and I'm going to look again at the harness you linked to. I've tried five harnesses over the past two years and none of them gave me enough control but I've never tried this one so who knows.....!


To be fair, OBYL has taken on board what people have been saying.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Werehorse said:


> Just want to say that I think it is fair enough to comment on a thread about a piece of equipment you feel is harmful even if the original poster is saying it has worked for them. I feel that the Gencon is a potentially harmful piece of equipment and I'm afraid that, for the sake of others reading, I decided that expressing my differing opinion on it would be of value. Open forum after all.
> 
> If someone came and started bigging up and electric shock collar (for example) I would feel the same. Most people on this forum aren't shy about stating that they disagree with something that they feel is harmful to animal welfare.
> 
> ...


I have no issue at all with differing views.

I genuinely, genuinely cannot see any sideways action of the dog's head when using the Gencon. I agree that it DOES tighten - I have it on quite loosely so that even when it tightens, it's comparable maybe to a half check collar's action, if that.

With regard to making the reactivity worse - all I can tell you is that the very opposite has happened wth Dex. Now, of course I have to have a serious think about whether this is because *any* tightening is still too much - as some are suggesting. I am taking on board what has been suggested. But again: NO sideways action of the head that I personally can see!

I know there are others on this site that also use a Gencon and it would be great if they could also post, so that maybe those reading can see it's *not* just me insisting that there's no sideways jerking OR 'unlimited tightening' 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only two headcollars with NO tightening action are:
Dogmatic
Dogalter (Kumfi headcollar, designed by George Grayson).


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I know my dogs don't like their dogmatics by the way they rub their faces along the ground when out to try to get them off and I'm well aware they are supposed to be a temporary measure. The truth is, if I didn't make them wear them I doubt they'd go out at all because having tried a collar I find them far too strong on the neck and even more so in a harness for me to hold onto. So for everyone's safety - my dogs, the public, other people's dogs and mine they have no choice but to wear one.

In fact seeing what Dr Jean Dodds (World specialist in Endocrine disorders) has said about dogs pulling on a collar and possibly damaging their thyroid gland (on going research as I type) I think the dogmatic is far safer, all be it a little too close for my liking but not actually in contact with the gland, for a strong, pulling breed like a Mal than a collar. As she says, prong, choke chains and slip leads should be a thing of the past - worth thinking about for Mr Millan next time he uses a slip lead to yank a dog along with.  They are much less likely to pull in a head collar and if they do it's a temporary thing. Harness's would be far better but the Mals can pull like they're working and as they are not working dogs have never learned the difference between when to pull and when not - and I have had no success in teaching them either if a rabbit comes into sight.

There are certain tools I wouldn't use, slip lead for example or some of the head collars but at the end of the day you have to use what works for you and what is safe for everyone concerned. In an ideal world we would all have our dogs walking perfectly but some don't have that 'knack' and that's when a tool has to come into consideration.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I have no issue at all with differing views.
> 
> I genuinely, genuinely cannot see any sideways action of the dog's head when using the Gencon. I agree that it DOES tighten - I have it on quite loosely so that even when it tightens, it's comparable maybe to a half check collar's action, if that.
> 
> ...


I was given a Gencon headcollar and an all in one and it does have unlimited tightening from what I can work out looking at it. It only stops tightening when it is so tight around the head that it cannot go any further, there is no adjustment available to stop it tightening at a certain point at all. I do remember you insistently making the same point in a headcollar thread a while back as we agreed on the issue.

Just because you have it on loosely, like a slip lead worn loosely around the neck, doesn't mean that it can't tighten just as much as one worn more tightly all the time.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Dogless said:


> I was given a Gencon headcollar and an all in one and it does have unlimited tightening from what I can work out looking at it. It only stops tightening when it is so tight around the head that it cannot go any further, there is no adjustment available to stop it tightening at a certain point at all. I do remember you insistently making the same point in a headcollar thread a while back as we agreed on the issue.
> 
> Just because you have it on loosely, like a slip lead worn loosely around the neck, doesn't mean that it can't tighten just as much as one worn more tightly all the time.


I did indeed voice that criticism a while back of the Gencon All In One.

You are right.

That was when I was using it at a time when Dex was pulling and lunging a lot and so it was tightening repeatedly. I wasn't happy with it - I stopped using it.

I have found that with the Gencon headcollar (as opposed to the All In One) that the big clip determines how tight or loose it seems to get. Also as Dex no longer pulls and hardly ever lunges, the tightening aspect hasn't been a problem.

He does much happier in the Gencon than other headcollars - it's hard to escape this fact...


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I did indeed voice that criticism a while back of the Gencon All In One.
> 
> You are right.
> 
> ...


Yes, if Dex doesn't pull or lunge then it doesn't actually matter what you use as it isn't needed which is good. I just picked up from that post that just because Dex no longer reacts doesn't mean the Gencon itself doesn't have unlimited tightening potential (the stopper on both affect how loose it can become, the dog affects how tight) - I just think for folk with still very reactive dogs who may be reading that that point needs to be made. The device does have unlimited tightening potential, so perhaps if someone has a very reactive dog it's not the answer until that reactivity is mostly sorted. Up to the individual what they use of course, but at least being aware of the mechanism of action they can make an informed decision on what's best for the stage their dog is at.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Yes, if Dex doesn't pull or lunge then it doesn't actually matter what you use as it isn't needed which is good. I just picked up from that post that just because Dex no longer reacts doesn't mean the Gencon itself doesn't have unlimited tightening potential (the stopper on both affect how loose it can become, the dog affects how tight) - I just think for folk with still very reactive dogs that that point needs to be made. The device does have unlimited tightening potential, so perhaps if someone has a very reactive dog it's not the answer until that reactivity is mostly sorted.


I agree, I think in my original post in this thread I may have stated that I would never use a Gencon on a dog that was pulling or lunging a lot...

I agree with you on this.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I was given a Gencon headcollar and an all in one and it does have unlimited tightening from what I can work out looking at it. It only stops tightening when it is so tight around the head that it cannot go any further, there is no adjustment available to stop it tightening at a certain point at all. I do remember you insistently making the same point in a headcollar thread a while back as we agreed on the issue.
> 
> Just because you have it on loosely, like a slip lead worn loosely around the neck, doesn't mean that it can't tighten just as much as one worn more tightly all the time.


Ditto - in fact im sure the one I saw had a stopper like on a normal slip lead which stops it from slipping to loose but doesn't stop it from going to tight.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I was given a Gencon headcollar and an all in one and it does have unlimited tightening from what I can work out looking at it. It only stops tightening when it is so tight around the head that it cannot go any further, there is no adjustment available to stop it tightening at a certain point at all


I also found this with the gencon headcollar. I did try it on my dog but he completely panicked as soon as it tightened, so I went back to using a gentle leader which was not ideal but at least he accepted it.

Ideally he would always walk on a nice loose lead but that is still work in progress so for more exciting walks I use a dogalter.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Dimwit said:


> I also found this with the gencon headcollar. I did try it on my dog but he completely panicked as soon as it tightened, so I went back to using a gentle leader which was not ideal but at least he accepted it.
> 
> Ideally he would always walk on a nice loose lead but that is still work in progress so for more exciting walks I use a *dogalter.*


How do you find the Dogalter, if you don't mind me asking?

I think that it is one of only two headcollars that do not tighten, the other being the Dogmatic.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Not at all. So far it is working pretty well, my dog seems happier in his than any of the others I have tried and he does walk nicely in it. It is also adjustable enough that I can get it to fit him which is the main problem I have had. I think pets at home do their own version of it as well.

It is really difficult though as I do think that different styles suit different dogs, but the trial and error can get pretty expensive!


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> How do you find the Dogalter, if you don't mind me asking?
> 
> I think that it is one of only two headcollars that do not tighten, the other being the Dogmatic.


Pets at home one's don't tighten (These are actually pretty good! Might rub though, did on mine) and the gentle leader doesn't seem to.(Just tested it actually, it shouldn't do but I guess if the adjuster clasp under the chin were to unclip then yeah it could)

Is Dex still highly reactive? Do you get dragged by him considering his weight?
Or has he considerably improve? Is he still really bad with cats and horses? 
Because if he still is then I still really really think you should reconsider the Gencon.

I have used many many many headcollars and harnesses so I do understand what you're going through.

I have used:
Pets at Home Control Headcollar (Very good but did rub)
Dogmatics (Very good and Zand will put his nose through it for walkies)
Gentle leader (Good, he excepted it well, but it did rub and twist about his fizzhog) 
Martingale headcollar (Fleece lined so no rubbing but brings the nose down via tightening at the back, may have contributed to recent negative reactions to other dogs)
Halti (Awful hated the way it shut his mouth, he would act very 'down' with it on, uncomfortable body language and it rubbed!)
Canny Collar (Good for all of ten minutes till he learnt how to flick his head out of it) 
Gencon all in one (Tightened to the point of squealing from my dog, on when he tried to run on ahead, not even a lunge, and it left a mark around his nose)
Snootloop (Same at the halti)
Kumfi headcollar (Good basic headcollar sadly rubbed fur off his nose)
Mikki headcollar (Alright but seemed a bit flimsy and chewable)

Harnesses: 
Mekuti (Very good, when used properly)
Xtradog (Sadly this kept twisting around his body, the fleece bunched, SOO dissapointed and he backed out of it) 
Chest Plate harness (Got out of it) 
Step in harness (Backed out of it)
Sporn harness (It rubbed the fur off his armpits and made him cough)


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> Pets at home one's don't tighten (These are actually pretty good! Might rub though, did on mine) and the gentle leader doesn't seem to.(Just tested it actually, it shouldn't do but I guess if the adjuster clasp under the chin were to unclip then yeah it could)
> 
> Is Dex still highly reactive? Do you get dragged by him considering his weight?
> Or has he considerably improve? Is he still really bad with cats and horses?
> ...


I've tried all the headcollars that I've bolded in your list. Also tried five different harnesses including one with a front attachment.

I tried the Sporn - didn't help at all.

Between us we must have spent a small fortune on all these headcollars and harnesses 

I wish Dex didn't slip between two sizes in the Dogmatic 

Might try the Dogalter as I gather it doesn't tighten and can be adjusted quite closely.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

I feel bad for the hassle OBAYL has gotten in this thread.
If you've never owned a large, strong, reactive dog, it might be easy to sit in judgement over those who do.

Dresden is over 40kilos of pure muscle, he's boisterous and he can sometimes be reactive (though far, far less than he used to be). He is not as difficult as Dex, but we did have a lot of issues walking him. Still do sometimes, but he is improving rapidly now he's maturing. 
BUT.....what Im saying is that I know a little how OBAYL feels, and the relief when you have a dog like this and you find something that allows you to walk it without being riddled with anxiety, fear, stress and paranoia.

I was actually against head collars originally, I just didn't like the idea of them because I was stubborn and considered them to be 'admitting defeat' and taking the easy option. I was judgemental of those I saw with them, snootily saying 'why don't they just train that dog to behave on a normal lead and collar?!'
Then Dresden hit adolescence, and my tune changed pretty quick.
It was a nightmare every time he had to go out on a lead walk. He would bark loudly at any passing dog, he'd get over excited and leap up and nip me, even latch on a few times and rip my clothes and leave bruises.
Im a big girl and no lightweight, but if he really wanted to kick off, even I struggled to control him.
I tried absolutely everything I was advised to avoid having to use a head collar, because prior to adolesence, I'd always been able to walk him normally on just a flat collar and lead.

In the end, I relented and got a dogmatic. 
I didn't even have to desensitise him to it extensively. Just on and off a few times with lots of chicken to praise, and out we went. He took to it from day one, and we were actually once more able to enjoy walks, meaning I could focus on training not just constantly worrying about who or what was coming up on the walk that might set him off.

I was able to take Dresden on the lovely, long walks we always used to do, as opposed to having to cut them short and come home in tears.

I used the head collar for about 4 months. 
Now, we rarely use it at all, and Dresden is a changed dog. He is not really reactive any more, he walks nice, and we haven't had any jumping, nipping or going loopy on lead.

Now.....I challenge someone to tell me that using a head collar was wrong. 
If I'd not, I would have been physically unable to take Dresden out some days. Not of any benefit to him at all, and very disheartening to me.
A losing situation for both of us.
But with it, our enjoyable walks returned. He was happier, I was happier, he had no objections to the head collar, and it gave me the control I needed if I should need it, allowing me to relax more and focus on training him in those 'trigger' situations rather than becoming a ball of nerves worrying that he was about to kick off.

And it worked, because we don't have those problems any more. We now go out on just a martingale and lead, 95% of the time.

I have not used any head collar but the dogmatic, didn't need to, so haven't experienced the one OBAYL is talking about, but Im sure we'd agree that we all know our own dogs?
We all know if they are enjoying something, hating something, or merely tolerating something, don't we? My dog certainly lets me know if he doesn't like something. And he lets me know when he's overjoyed.
Im sure OBAYL knows her dog better than any of us, and Im sure she wouldn't use something that she thought was dangerous or that Dex disliked or feared.

Sometimes people have to realise that some dogs....most dogs actually.....will never be 'perfect', no matter how much work is done on some issues. Sometimes, after you've tried and tried, 'managing' a situation is all you can hope for. 
If it is a head collar, or a dog not being walked because of their behaviour, I'd much rather see a head collar! If a head collar gives an owner that bit of freedom to focus more on training while out on walks and less on scanning the horizon for triggers or scooting into allys to avoid other dogs, I'd rather see the head collar.

Ultimately, I think they should in an ideal world be 'training tools' to work through a behaviour or phase, rather than a permanent fixture.
BUT....I also appreciate that we don't live in an ideal world, and some dogs can only ever be 'managed'.

I managed to sort Dresden, but there was a time when I honestly didn't think I ever would, and was wondering if he would have to just be 'managed' rather than 'fixed'. I was lucky.

I dunno, Im just saying its very hard to understand how it is if you haven't owned a large, strong dog with issues about lots of every day things.
If you have a relatively calm dog who walks well on the lead, it can be hard to truly appreciate how desperate you feel when you can't just pick up a lead and go out for a nice walk, but have to plan ahead, plan a specific route where you will be less likely to see triggers, load your pockets with tools, treats, spare leads, all sorts of things just to get out of the door, and then you never know whether you'll be coming home in tears again anyway.

If this headcollar caused the dog pain or fear I would not support it, and Im sure OBAYL wouldn't either  But from what she has said, it seems Dex is indifferent to it?

It may not be ideal to some, but if it allows her to walk her dog and enjoy doing it, this has a trickle down effect to the dog, who will also enjoy it more, and probably get more, and longer, and more varied walks as a result.

I don't know. People will probably give me crap for this, but I just sympathise with the OP a bit, have experienced some of what she goes through with her dog with my own, and know how life changing it is when you find something that _works_, that allows you to have a walk with your dog like everyone else has, and that your dog doesn't appear to mind. Perhaps those of us with easier dogs kinda take it for granted a bit, and don't really know what we would try if the OPs dog was handed to us tomorrow?


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Not to be rude, but all of us who have constructively criticised or given advice all have reactive dogs to some degree. Some of us have larger sized one's who can scale 6ft fencing standing start, some of us have smaller scruffier fluffier dogs who are verbally reactive, others have hugemungous dogs who are like dogzilla's it seems, some us of who have reactive dogs who can be terrified of things.

*We are trying to help.*


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Shadowrat said:


> I feel bad for the hassle OBAYL has gotten in this thread.
> If you've never owned a large, strong, reactive dog, it might be easy to sit in judgement over those who do.
> 
> Dresden is over 40kilos of pure muscle, he's boisterous and he can sometimes be reactive (though far, far less than he used to be). He is not as difficult as Dex, but we did have a lot of issues walking him. Still do sometimes, but he is improving rapidly now he's maturing.
> ...


Thank you so much SHADOWRAT 

I remember some of your posts and how much I could empathise. I am so glad that Dresden is back to being a lovely, calmer boy and that the Dogmatic helped. I used one for ages and in fact only stopped using that brand because Dex slipped between two sizes.

Perhaps when people read that my dog is 'reactive' it doesn't convey accurately that he will go over threshold in the blink of an eye. Hence the need for a headcollar.

And as you so rightly say, I would NEVER EVER use anything that Dex seemed to object to - ironically he is happier to have the Gencon put on than any other headcollar!

Well done for all your hard work with Dresden


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Shadowrat said:


> I feel bad for the hassle OBAYL has gotten in this thread.
> If you've never owned a large, strong, reactive dog, it might be easy to sit in judgement over those who do.
> 
> Dresden is over 40kilos of pure muscle, he's boisterous and he can sometimes be reactive (though far, far less than he used to be). He is not as difficult as Dex, but we did have a lot of issues walking him. Still do sometimes, but he is improving rapidly now he's maturing.
> ...


I have nothing against head collars - have used one myself but no dog is born easy and most those with 'easy' dogs have had experience of those not so easy times 

Maybe quite a few people commenting have also come home from walks in tears?

Maybe they have had an adult sized dog which doesn't know how to react to situations.

Everyone has been on a journey with their dog - even the 'easier' and not large ones


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

WOW I never dreamed when I started this thread that we would get to 7 pages - I remember thinking that I probably wouldn't even get any responses!


One thing I think we can all agree on: PF folk are passionate about dogs, what we use on our dogs, helping others with their dogs, and in fact everything to do with dogs


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Glad you have found something that works with Dex and he has improved all round so much. As they say sometimes if it aint broke dont try to fix it. If it works for you and your dog and your both happy then fine.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> no dog is born easy and most those with 'easy' dogs have had experience of those not so easy times
> 
> Maybe quite a few people commenting have also come home from walks in tears?
> 
> ...


I realise this. I also know no dog is born easy, but they're all individuals, and some are arguably easier than others. Just like children, just like any species really. And if your dog is big and strong enough to physically yank you over with some force if it wanted to, it does put it all into a slightly different ball park than someone who's dog weighs 8 kilos.
Not saying 8 kilo dogs can't have big issues too and be difficult, of course. But I don't think its the same thing.

There are things my dog has zero issues with, but someone else's dog might. And vice versa. 
But still, I do often find the dog world quite......I don't know what the right word is......holier than thou? Sometimes. Not necessarily talking about here, but in general since I've been actively involved with dogs, I've noticed it on a lot of occasions all over the net, and in real life.

I just do think, and honestly will always think, that dog ownership is one of those 'don't judge me until you've walked a mile in my shoes' type things.....or more 'don't judge me until you've tried to walk a mile with my dog!'

At least we're not talking about someone using a prong or electric collar on their dog here, as I read routinely occurring in the USA on some dobe forums I go to, and no-one bats an eyelid, even recommend them for pup as young as 6 months, to fix issues as minor as pulling or not walking perfectly to heel 
After reading all that stuff for so many months, I can't find it in myself to be all that dramatic about a head collar that, and this is the most important thing, _doesn't bother the dog_.
Of course we could debate whether it does or doesn't bother the dog all night, but the best person to recognise if it does is the owner, surely?

As the OP owns a dog who is reactive and goes over threshold in the blink of an eye, Im guessing they might even be better than average at reading their dog's body language and anticipating how they're feeling about something.

But again, I've not used one of these head collars, or seen one in action.


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Shadowrat said:


> I just do think, and honestly will always think, that dog ownership is one of those 'don't judge me until you've walked a mile in my shoes' type things.....or more 'don't judge me until you've tried to walk a mile with my dog!'


Funny you should say that 

I don't like being judged either which is why I try to be very careful to convey that despite how *I* may feel about a tool or method, I don't judge others for the choices they make with their own dogs.

TBH, I also find it rather "judge-ey" to say "you don't know what it's like to have ____ type of dog." Maybe the reason I make the recommendations I do is because I *do* have experience with this type of dog. I have two giant breed dogs and an 80 pound very strong and athletic mutt-dog. Two of our three dogs came to us with behavior issues. In fact, in over 4 decades of owning dogs, most large breed rescues, it's possible that I may know a thing or two about dealing with a powerful dog who is reactive.

It may also very well be that because I do have the experience I do, I tend to oversimplify and forget what it feels like to not know if what you're doing is working or not. But FWIW, I do try to be understanding.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

ouesi said:


> In fact, in over 4 decades of owning dogs, most large breed rescues, it's possible that I may know a thing or two about dealing with a powerful dog who is reactive.
> 
> But FWIW, I do try to be understanding.


You know, heres an example:
I have 16 years experience working with rats. I've got 8 years experience working with exclusively rescue rats, mostly with behavioural problems.
I know a thing or two about rats. I am confident to advise people on behavioural issues in that species, because I've been through most of the 'main' issues they throw at you time and time again. I've owned about 200 rats in my life, all different.

BUT......despite my huge experience, despite how many individuals I've owned personally, despite how many times I've dealt with the same behavioural problems, I never for a second assume that I know everything OR that I've got a behavioural problem 'cracked' and know how to solve it every time from then on out.
More accurately, I never assume for a second that one method works for all individuals. 
And if someone calls me up and says they've tried this, and this, and they seem to have done everything thats been advised but not gotten anywhere, I don't instantly leap to the conclusion that they MUST just be inexperienced morons who are doing things the wrong way because they SHOULD have sorted it by now.
No. I assume that those methods just didn't click with that specific individual animal, and we might have to look outside the box with this one.

Just because I have tons of experience and knowledge, it doesn't mean for a second that I think I know how every individual rat's head is wired, or that I can judge how that animal should be managed until I've met it and personally gotten to know it. Some of them don't respond as they 'should', some of them have had too many or too severe negative experiences to respond to things the way we would expect, some are just (for wont of a better phase) mentally glitchy and you can't fix them.

The point of this?
Experience is great. Having owned a lot of individuals of a certain species is great. 
And those two combined will probably put you in a good position to sort out, or at least have a rough idea how to start sorting out, a lot of issues that might pop up.
But it does not mean that you know everything. It does not mean that just because you had an animal of the same breed with a similar problem that you managed to fix, that all others of should be dealt with the exact same way and with the exact same success rates. It is not 'my way or the highway' and nor is it 'this worked for my dog who is similar, therefore, there is no reason it won't work for this other dog!'

Im sure you do know how to deal with a powerful dog who is reactive. That doesn't mean you know how to deal with ALL powerful dogs who are reactive. It doesn't mean the method/s you used will automatically work for the next dog along, even if that dog has the same problem.

You are entitled to your opinion on the head collar, or anything else. 
But what I do find a bit irritating in some dog discussions is this holier than thou 'I have had tons more experience than you, this worked for my dogs, there is no reason it can't work for yours, if its not working then you're doing it wrong of course, and you're doing it wrong because you're not as good as me'.

Thats the vibe I get sometimes. Sorry. Not from you per se, but from a lot of dog people. 
OBAYL has always suggested to me that she is someone who:
A. works hard with their dog
B. takes responsibility with their dog
c. Takes precautions to lessen their dog's reactions
D. Researches a lot to find new methods that might help.
E. loves their dog.
F. has actually made progress.

Given this, I don't really understand why people are so.....snippy and dismissive? Fair enough, dislike the product, don't use it on your dog if you don't want to, but we're not talking about a prong collar or a shock collar or someone beating their dog, or someone who hasn't bothered training or trying any other methods and has gone straight for the easiest fix they can find; we're talking about someone who has worked hard and tried lots of methods and is now trying a new training aid which has given good results without upsetting or bothering the dog.

I suppose I just don't get why people are objecting to something that the dog doesn't seem bothered by? 
If he did, I'd of course join the protests. But the OP has said he isn't, and people are just assuming they must know the dog better than its owner........


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

Okay, well tonight is obviously going to be one of those nights where I post one thing and something entirely different comes across. 

Shadowrat, none of what you're countering with is even remotely what I said or meant. Not even close. 
I know everything?
I know how to deal with all reactive dogs?
Same methods with every dog?
My way or the highway?
Holier than thou?
Snippy and dismissive?
I don't see how you got any of that from anything I have said on this thread.
I never even voiced any objection to OBYL using a gencon.

I have posted exactly twice in this thread. Both times explicitly saying it is up to each owner the decisions they make with their own dog in their own unique situation. 

I just had a rough thread of being very harshly and unfairly judged for something I haven't even done to my dogs and I was sharing that I wholly understand how OBYL must feel. 
That none of us like to feel like we are being judged. NONE of us.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Shadowrat, none of what you're countering with is even remotely what I said or meant. Not even close.
> I know everything?
> I know how to deal with all reactive dogs?
> Same methods with every dog?
> ...


No, you may not have voiced any harsh objections, but others have. 
I quoted your post initially as it what you said about how you've owned large reactive dogs yourself was relevant to what I said about no matter how much experience we have, we still don't know everything or every individual animal.

The rest of the post was more generally directed at those who have been unnecessarily negative about the gencon, not you, I guess I should have stated that.

But no, people don't like to be judged by people who don't know us or our dogs, particularly when they have tried so hard and gone above and beyond. 
I think one thing we can all agree on is that we love our dogs, otherwise we wouldn't be here at all.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

Shadowrat said:


> No, you may not have voiced any harsh objections, but others have.


 *May* not have? I *did* not.
You know, in the other thread my use of the word "vermin" offended you, and even though I meant no offense by it at all, I acknowledged it and apologized to you. I see you don't find me deserving of the same courtesy for whatever reason.

Do you even realize how incredibly dismissive you are to everything I post? 
First you say "Im just saying its very hard to understand how it is if you haven't owned a large, strong dog with issues about lots of every day things."
I reply that actually I do know what it's like.
Your response? A great long post about how experience isn't everything.

Forgive me if that leaves me scratching my head a bit.

And with that, I wish OBYL well with Dex and leave you all to have fun solving the problems of the world.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

ouesi said:


> *May* not have? I *did* not.
> You know, in the other thread my use of the word "vermin" offended you, and even though I meant no offense by it at all, I acknowledged it and apologized to you. I see you don't find me deserving of the same courtesy for whatever reason.


No, I just think you're being over sensitive tonight because you got a bit narked at the ear taping thread, and are taking everything to heart.

Oh, and sorry if my posts are too long for you: I respect people enough to go into detail when conversing on a public forum, I think people deserve some effort, don't you? If you didn't want to read it, you could have just skipped it. But I'll be happy to limit my responses to one or two lines for you in future if you'd find that easier?

I think we've both got our wires crossed a bit here, to be honest, so I'll leave you all to it.....


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Shadowrat said:


> No, you may not have voiced any harsh objections, but others have.
> I quoted your post initially as it what you said about how you've owned large reactive dogs yourself was relevant to what I said about no matter how much experience we have, we still don't know everything or every individual animal.
> 
> The rest of the post was more generally directed at those who have been unnecessarily negative about the gencon, not you, I guess I should have stated that.
> ...


Those who have been unnecessarily 'negative' about the Gencon I believe have raised genuine concerns.

This is a public forum and this thread could be accessed by anyone googling 'Gencon' - People reading the Gencon website/ considering buying this product may not realise how this product works and the implications it could have. (Its not like there website advertises it has unlimited tightening)

I for one cant read a report on how super amazing a product is without raising awareness of this- If it makes one person reading it with a very reactive strong dog rethink options and look into a front clip harness then great.

If people dont like to be judged then Pet Forums/ internet forums arnt really for them lol.

People will give opinions and well most people wont know anymore about them or there dog than what they say online.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

In fairness, I do think *SHADOWRAT* has picked up on a few things that nobody has and that I didn't express well myself.

e.g. that my dog seems perfectly happy in the Gencon - *when I go to put it on he willingly sits and lowers his head to go through the two loops. Now compare this to his response to the Dogmatic - he backs up and barks at me* 

Also I should have stressed that the minute we meet a 'trigger' we do a 'watch me' so the headcollar doesn't always even have to tighten at all.

I think - and hope! - I said in my very first post that I would NOT recommend the Gencon to ANY owner whose dog is constantly pulling and lunging - *precisely because of the concerns that some folk have raised here.*

However, with a dog that is now walking nicely but that on occasion goes over threshold with a vengeance - yes, the Gencon can work really well.

*MILLIEPOOCHIE's* link was very helpful though and I am looking into that harness - maybe I can get one and practise using it in a safe place e.g park so that if I don't have enough control, at least there will be no repeat of the incident whereby I ended up face down on the floor and my dog out in the road 

*OUESI* I have great respect for your experience and I know you have very big strong dogs - all I can say is I wish I had your skills and hopefully in time I will improve as a dog owner/handler!

I have seen the Gencon being recommended on at least one Agility site, would be interesting to know what their response to this thread would be.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Just checked the start of this thread and yep - I did indeed state I don't recommend the Gencon for dogs that pull and lunge a lot.

I've now put it in bold.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I think some confusion might arise from the way you describe Dex as behaving on other threads - From what you have said about his reactivity and his strength, and how that has come across on various threads, I would think of him as exactly kind of dog that you state you wouldn't put in a Gencon. That doesn't mean he _is_ that kind of dog but that is certainly how it has come across to me. I feel a little that because you have found it works for you, you have kind of softened the idea of how it works inside your own head, if that makes sense, so you can justify your own usage of it. Not a criticism as such just something to be aware of, people do it a lot with all kind of gadgets and I do it myself as well. 

And all people have done is talked about its action, honestly, and offered a bit of advice on how to move on from it and from relying on "watch me" which although it is training the dog a different way of coping with a situation isn't mecessarily tackling to root of the anxiety. To be fair I think you have taken that on board. 

Some people disagree with the use of gadgets, some of just specifically the Gencon. Personally I think gadgets have a place in management when used correctly but people should not delude themselves as to how they work (it will cause discomfort, that is how it works) or that they are training the dog with it, rather than just managing. I've used a headcollar myself, this isn't a case of holier than thou, I wouldn't be above going back to a headcollar if I felt it was going to help me out a bit - but I don't like them, and I don't like how the Gencon in particular works.

Regards Dex's reactions, to me - if it was one of mine - running backwards and barking would be excitement about getting out for a walk and head down while having the head collar put on would be a dog that was uncomfortable with having the head collar on. But they are all different aren't they?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Werehorse said:


> I think some confusion might arise from the way you describe Dex as behaving on other threads - From what you have said about his reactivity and his strength, and how that has come across on various threads, I would think of him as exactly kind of dog that you state you wouldn't put in a Gencon. That doesn't mean he _is_ that kind of dog but that is certainly how it has come across to me. I feel a little that because you have found it works for you, you have kind of softened the idea of how it works inside your own head, if that makes sense, so you can justify your own usage of it. Not a criticism as such just something to be aware of, people do it a lot with all kind of gadgets and I do it myself as well.
> 
> And all people have done is talked about its action, honestly, and offered a bit of advice on how to move on from it and from relying on "watch me" which although it is training the dog a different way of coping with a situation isn't mecessarily tackling to root of the anxiety. To be fair I think you have taken that on board.
> 
> ...


Interesting point WEREHORSE. I think I'd agree except that when he backs off he tries to avoid the headcollar too. But I DO take on board your points.

Re the management v training issue: not sure I can even separate the two. The headcollar allows me *to* train - I could never have stopped the lunges via 'watch me' without a headcollar. Never in a million years.

I do take on board what you mean about getting to the root of the problem - I only wish I could do this. I'm just not skilled enough and when I looked at some superb positive trainers in my area, the cost was simply prohibitive for me at this time.

Also, do you agree that some behaviours can become habits? I think with my dog some of the lunging etc had become habits and the headcollar has allowed me to interrupt this habit.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Interesting point WEREHORSE. I think I'd agree except that when he backs off he tries to avoid the headcollar too. But I DO take on board your points.
> 
> Re the management v training issue: not sure I can even separate the two. The headcollar allows me *to* train - I could never have stopped the lunges via 'watch me' without a headcollar. Never in a million years.
> 
> ...


Yes the headcollar has helped you stop the behaviour when he has gone over threshold.

Yes Dogs repeat behaviours that work for them, thats why training works too  If we don't like the behaviour they are offering lets help them find on that works for both of us.

You come across as a person able and willing to learn and improve things for yourself and Dex with a bit of a flair for the dramatic. Exploring the things below could really help some good videos for both can be found on youtube is you are a more visual learning.

The LAT game from Leslie McDevitts "Control Unleashed" is a great counter conditioning game.

Grisha Stewart BAT training is also excellent.

If Dex is finding the gencon tightening aversive you may inadvertantly be heightening his negative association with the trigger.

Noone wants to get at you. I was confused by your frequent contradictory posts. Dex being both described as much improved and highly reactive in close succession. If someone call my bluff i will research and show evidence for my point.

I wish you both every success at moving forward.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

I think when it comes down to it we all know our dogs a lot better than anyone else and if we find an aid they are happy with, then that's our call. People would look at how Rupert responds when I put a headcollar on him and say he hates it. He puts his head down level with his shoulders and shuts his eyes. But in actual fact he does that with all collars and harnesses and anything that goes over his head. He's had sore ears a lot of his life and is now just used to pulling that face when anything goes over his head.

When you think about it all headcollars are negative enforcers. Dog pulls/goes to far/lunges and a pressure or tightening is exerted. So there we go, we are mostly all for positive reinforcement on here yet many of us use headcollars that are the complete opposite. But I don't think any of us have a lifelong ambition to put all of our dogs into a headcollar, we are attempting to improve things unlike a lot of owners. Rupert is in one at the moment but I only ever have the intention of using it as a stop gap until he is on more level ground with other dogs on leads. Its mostly because of other people's awful control of their dogs that I need to put Rupert back in one.

I don't think headcollars are a long term solution, I think they are aids and like anything (slip leads, flat collars) can be abused in the wrong hands. I'm certainly not disillusioned in what headcollars are and I think every dog owner needs to be aware that everything, if used incorrectly or not suited to their dog, could potentially do serious harm. And that does include flat collars as well as slip leads and flexi leads. Some good links have been provided re BAT training etc which I think often work well alongside aids like headcollars. It does concern me how often they are painted as 'solutions' not aids, which is what they really are.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

Shadowrat said:


> No, I just think you're being over sensitive tonight because you got a bit narked at the ear taping thread, and are taking everything to heart.
> 
> Oh, and sorry if my posts are too long for you: I respect people enough to go into detail when conversing on a public forum, I think people deserve some effort, don't you? If you didn't want to read it, you could have just skipped it. But I'll be happy to limit my responses to one or two lines for you in future if you'd find that easier?
> 
> I think we've both got our wires crossed a bit here, to be honest, so I'll leave you all to it.....


I don't know what narked means but if it means upset, duh! Of course I'm upset! I was told I was selfish and didn't love my dogs among many other accusations.

But yet again with the double standards.

It's okay for OBYL to get upset (when BTW no one has accused her of anything, and folks on this thread have been very kind and understanding if you ask me), but it's not okay for me to get upset?

Moving on....

OBYL, if a headcollar is what you want to use, then use it. You don't have to defend, explain, or justify your choices to anyone but yourself and your dog.

Others are going to have opinions about gencons that are just as valid as your choice to use it, and on a public forum it seem to me that it is appropriate to voice them.

I absolutely thing that indeed some of your dog's behavior has become a habit. This does make it harder to modify, but still very much doable. 
Have you read "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt? What about "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons? One is geared towards competition dogs and the other aggressive dogs, don't let that fool you. The exercises in both books would be hugely beneficial to a dog like Dex.

For example the "watch me" that you do, if you could switch that from a cued behavior to a default behavior I think just that would make a world of difference. Basically you make it so that the distraction - what sets Dex off - becomes the *cue* for him to look to you. Instead of you saying "watch me", he does it automatically as a response to seeing something he finds arousing.

Impulse control is a funny thing. It HAS to be dog-directed, otherwise you're not teaching impulse control. You're training, sure, but you're not teaching the dog to control himself. 
If you look at most of your training with Dex, your focus has been on YOU controlling him. The secret that nobody will tell you, is that he will ALWAYS be stronger, faster, more aware of his surroundings than you. Always. You can go through every training device out there, but in the end if he wants to pull/lunge/react through the device, he will.
This is why teaching a dog like Dex to SELF regulate is so imperative. He has to learn to control himself, not always rely on you to tell him what to do or hold him back. 
I think more than anything, his reliance on you to do this for him has become a habit.

So, how you go about changing things from you controlling Dex to Dex controlling himself is going to depend on what works for both you as a handler and Dex as an individual. Those two books I mentioned, give you tons of options to try. Generally you're going to need a combination of exercises.
Also, as already suggested, look in to Grisha Stewart's BAT. She has two websites as well as a group on FB full of lovely people who are very knowledgeable and helpful. Functionalrewards.com and ahimsadogtraining.com


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I don't know what narked means but if it means upset, duh! Of course I'm upset! I was told I was selfish and didn't love my dogs among many other accusations.
> 
> But yet again with the double standards.
> 
> It's okay for OBYL to get upset (when BTW no one has accused her of anything, and folks on this thread have been very kind and understanding if you ask me), but it's not okay for me to get upset?


Im not saying its not ok for you to be upset. I see why you would be. Hey, I've been there before: I used to have free roaming cats, and the stick I got from a lot of cat people, calling me an owner who 'didn't care', or was irresponsible, or making all kinds of wild accusations when they didn't know me or my cat was laughable, yes, even accusing me of not caring about them as much as everyone else. So I do know what its like to feel 'ganged up on', good god do I know! 
I wasn't saying it was wrong for you to feel stressy over that thread, I just said that it might be why you were taking this one more to heart that perhaps necessary. We all do it :closedeyes:
I'll also point out that I never called you selfish or ever said you didn't love your dogs, on that thread or any other.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> Yes the headcollar has helped you stop the behaviour when he has gone over threshold.
> 
> Yes Dogs repeat behaviours that work for them, thats why training works too  If we don't like the behaviour they are offering lets help them find on that works for both of us.
> 
> ...


I can assure you I have never intentionally been _'dramatic'_

And I have certainly *NEVER* tried to '_call your bluff'_

I'm sorry if some of my posts have seemed contradictory to some of you. Dex is both intensely reactive - AND much improved. i.e. he now looks at me instead of going beserk at *most* the things which used to scare him.
I don't know how else to describe his behaviour other than to say: much improved, but still goes over threshold super fast with certain triggers.

I *do* take on board the very valid point that a headcollar which tightens *may* aggravate a response. That said, according to this logic, nobody should be using a Halti or a Gentle Leader 

I do appreciate that everyone on this thread means well, though again I think possibly only SHADOWRAT gets the point that I know my dog well and would NEVER EVER use anything that he seemed unhappy in. I stopped using other headcollars precisely for this reason.

So......I am investigating the harness that MILLIEPOOCHIE kindly linked to with a view to using it in a safe space such as the park.... And again* I GENUINELY DO APPRECIATE that people here are passionate about dogs and about helping fellow dog owners! *

I'm also planning to order the Dogalter later today. That doesn't tighten either


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

I've just ordered a dogalter headcollar too in my on-going quest to find one that works for both me and my dog. Would be interested to hear how you get on with it too.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I *do* take on board the very valid point that a headcollar which tightens *may* aggravate a response. That said, *according to this logic, nobody should be using a Halti or a Gentle Leader*


You won't be getting any argument from me on that point.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Deep breaths......

Its taken a long time to form this response without making you feel even more got at than you already seem to (or rather how other people seem to see it, you are actually taking the advice on the chin). I am not sure I have managed it so apologies now if you take it the wrong way. It really isnt meant to seem critical.

I also appreciate that although I do have a very reactive dog the issues are not as inherently dangerous to me being as she is only 7kg .

However I have had, since joining this forum, some amazing and excellent advice, which has resulted in me learning all about force free training and dog body language and stress levels and all manner of things I was ignorant to before. It make me very sad to think I might never have come across this knowledge, not every one in real life agrees with it, most think I am a bit soft .

My first day on PF I was pulled up by a longstanding member on the methods I was using, although not nice to be criticised by someone so strongly, it gave me the jolt I needed and opened my eyes. And at the end of the day I would rather be judged by someone I will never meet than have those I know whispering behind my back (although sadly they probably are, saying things like why is she so soft with that dog it needs pinning to the floor)

One of the first threads I started was about headcollars actually http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/264253-tried-head-collar-training-class-advice-please.html and how I was going to try one, I gave up on it quite quickly by the way as it didnt have the desired calming effect I had been promised, quite the opposite  despite trying desensitising her to it after that initial class.

One of those people who has given me unending support and advice is moonviolet believe it or not, I think that all she and some of us others are trying to say is that Dex is reacting to things, these things are stressing him, and in turn you, and its upsetting to think there are ways you could work through this and hopefully reduce some of this stress. All the behaviour training books and methods that have been suggested will help you enormously. In addition Turid Rugaas books are spot on http://www.amazon.co.uk/Turid-Rugaas/e/B001JOTYTO especially Calming Signals and the Barking one, Suzanne Clothier, quoted in ouesi's sig  has some great articles and advice on the net.

It is a big shame you cant manage even one session with a trainer. As that was what gave me the confidence to utilise all the ridiculous  ideas suggested through my reading . My initial lesson was only £40 for an assessment and £30 for a training session.

I do hope you can take some good from this, carry on using the gencon by all means but aim for that harness  :thumbsup:.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

If he goes overboard suddenly and unexpectedly do you not worry about the jerk he must get from hitting the end of whatever leash he has at force? That's what put me off using a headcollar with Spencer, I could just see him lunging suddenly and coz I wasn't expecting it all the force would be taken on the headcollar rather than the harness and that he'd end up badly hurt. I would think that to be a valid concern regardless of whether or not the headcollar tightens or whether the leash attaches at the side or under the chin. 

I've been there with a powerful, reactive, in some situations downright aggressive dog and I have to say Control Unleashed helped me with Rupert a hell of a lot. 

If you want to use a harness have you looked into the ones with the front ring? Lots of people seem to have had success with them.


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

Actually, probably a bit of a silly question and someone else may have already asked this but have you thought about going to see a behaviourist or trainer at all? I had a consultation with a behaviourist and I have to say, having someone who has qualifications in behaviour and a part of APDT can really help guide you into knowing what to do in a certain situations, and they can help you when it comes to reading body language in your dog.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I feel for you OBYL it seems you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't!

I don't think you're contradicting yourself when you say something works and in another post Dex lunges, that's what happens in reality. As I've already said I've tried all different collars, head collars and harness's and just when I think we've cracked it I'm almost on the floor again, lol. 

I have some great walks with Flynn but after five years with him I don't ever kid myself I've cracked it anymore because he's shown me a different side so many times. I just appreciate when things go well and if they don't put it down to 'one of those days'. I don't think Flynn will ever be consistently good in my hands tbh, I'm just as changeable emotion wise as him and we feed off each other. Three different behaviourists have told me I need to relax with him and his reactions to certain things are because of me and its very hard trying to change the kind of person you are to incorporate a dogs behaviour. I'm a natural stress head, always have been and it just so happens that Flynns reactions to dogs stems from fear - so they all said. He and I can both get fearful in certain situations, its not something I can control in myself so it doesn't help him either. I just appreciate the good and pass off the bad as best I can, although he rarely plays up at all now because we simply don't see other dogs - not a good way to help him overcome his fears or mine but an easy option. 

I've tried the Halti non pull harness as has my daughter with Marty and it was even worse than walking them on a collar, their chests are built for pulling (as in weight pull) and they couldn't care less about comfort. If they want to take off after a rabbit they don't care about the dogmatic either but they are far easier to handle in one. Reactive dogs can be so difficult to deal with and at training last year the behaviourist said using the LAT technique with a dog like Flynn would hype him all the more, as apparently did my voice. Behaviourists are great at showing what we do wrong and how to fix it but its hard carrying it through. Having a loose lead and being relaxed while passing dogs really did work in classes but when you're on your own and you know that that loose lead can easily allow the dog more strength if it does lunge, its a risky business. 

The dogmatic works for me 99.9% of the time because he doesn't pull and if Dex doesn't pull on what you're using now there's no worry about it getting too tight. Prepare yourself for it working now but not later on though because these little darlings have a way of deflating us. 

With me I think new tools work initially because I expect them to but once I see it fail I begin to doubt it and my worry is back again. I'm told self confidence is the key and now we don't see dogs I can manage it. Goodness knows how we'd be seeing other dogs now though because we haven't seen any in months and although people on a Mal forum want us to join them in group walks, saying once together even their reactive Mals don't play up with their own breed, I'm still finding excuses not to go. 

Good luck and I hope what you're using is a success for Dex. :thumbsup:


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

*RE TRAINERS*

I have already had two trainers.

The first trainer came twice and cost a fortune. Turned out he was an avid CM fan.

The second trainer was a lot better and we met with her for *almost seven months on a weekly basis.* At that time, Dex was still very young and so excitable I could hardly walk him. She helped me a lot but though she was great, she was very 'old school' so it became a bit of a 'leash correction' situation. Hence we got to a certain point and no further - but she did help.

So for those of you urging me to 'try' a trainer/behaviourist, as I've stated, the few that I would have faith in, that come on personal recommendation, are very expensive and I'm just not in a position to do that right now. I do have a 'trainer' fund though that I'm regularly topping up so it's not something I'm dismissing, not at all.

*However - If anyone does know of someone seriously good in the Middlesex area then by all means, if you'd kindly PM me their name that would be much appreciated.*

I think where a trainer would be fab would perhaps be in helping me desensitise Dex to the 'big' triggers - horses and cats and motorbikes.

*GINGERROGERS* - I don't think anyone could claim I've been unreceptive to all the advice given here  Some of MOONVIOLET'S remarks were very personal and totally uncalled for. Let's leave it there, shall we 

*MALMUM *- thank you. I read your posts with great interest as I know how incredibly strong Malamutes can be 

*STAFFGIRL *- great, let's definitely compare notes on the Dogalter  Am hoping mine will arrive by Tuesday.

*SARAH *- yep, have tried a harness with a front ring, didn't help *but* MILLIEPOOCHIE has kindly linked to a different one, I'd actually considered it before a while back, am looking at it again now.

* ]BY THE WAY - Dex says to tell you all his ears are positively burning *


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## Guest (May 18, 2013)

Local Dog Trainers in Middlesex UK

^ APDT trainers in Middlesex, give a couple a buzz, ask about their stance on dominance, lead corrections ect before they come so you know not to waste your time.

Edit: Sorry didn't see the PM bit till now! Will keep this here though for other PF'ers.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> Local Dog Trainers in Middlesex UK
> 
> ^ APDT trainers in Middlesex, give a couple a buzz, ask about their stance on dominance, lead corrections ect before they come so you know not to waste your time.
> 
> Edit: Sorry didn't see the PM bit till now! Will keep this here though for other PF'ers.


Many thanks 

There's one on there who might cover my area and I'm going to contact him on Monday, watch this space......!


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## Guest (May 19, 2013)

Malmum said:


> Prepare yourself for it working now but not later on though because these little darlings have a way of deflating us.
> 
> With me I think new tools work initially because I expect them to but once I see it fail I begin to doubt it and my worry is back again.


Hi Malmum, I wanted to address this both for you and OBYL and anyone else who struggles to control a big dog.

The biggest reason these tools initially work and then seem to stop working is because of a phenomenon called a "punishment callous". Don't be offended by the term, it simply refers to a type of habituation where the dog basically gets used to the tool. It's just like owners who tell their puppies "no, no, no, no, no" 100 times a day and then wonder why pretty soon the pup completely ignores the "no". 
Compulsion trainers are very familiar with punishment callous and the savvier ones make sure to train in such a way where punishment is used very sparingly because they *know* the dog will eventually get used to it and it will lose it's power to motivate.

Basically, ALL management tools will eventually stop "working" for all but the most sensitive of dogs. And generally those big oafs of ours aren't very sensitive. 
And like I already said, regardless of the management tool, if a dog the size of Dex decides he wants to lunge and take off, if he *really* wants to, he's going to.

I love Suzanne Clothier's take on the whole equipment thing:


> I pointed out that any time she became aware of her dog's strength & weight, it was a clear signal that the connection was broken, that no training was going on, that she was simply restraining him. When the connection is clear & strong, there's no sensation of physically fighting or restraining the dog. Regardless of any being's size, cooperation weighs nothing.
> 
> Anytime you're aware how strong another being is, how much they weigh, it's probably because they are working against you and not with you. (Unless you are deliberately asking the dog to pull as you might in tracking, agitation work, tug games, or if they sit/lay on top of you, or having to restrain them for a veterinary procedure, etc). Anytime you think, "Heavens, this dog is so strong!" it's probably time to back up and find a way to reconnect.
> 
> A lot of so called "training" equipment is actually "restraining" equipment, and allows the handler to physically hang on to and direct the dog. My goal as an instructor is to develop the connection so that the lead/collar simply becomes a safety device, a backup net if you will for any mistakes that may be made (especially in places where there's no room for a mistake to be made safely), a nod to local leash laws, and sometimes, a way to deliver soft signals of guidance. Training is not about the equipment - it's about the connection, the relationship, the cooperation.


From her article here: How Much Does Your Dog&#039;s Cooperation Weigh? | Suzanne Clothier


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Hi Malmum, I wanted to address this both for you and OBYL and anyone else who struggles to control a big dog.
> 
> The biggest reason these tools initially work and then seem to stop working is because of a phenomenon called a "punishment callous". Don't be offended by the term, it simply refers to a type of habituation where the dog basically gets used to the tool. It's just like owners who tell their puppies "no, no, no, no, no" 100 times a day and then wonder why pretty soon the pup completely ignores the "no".
> Compulsion trainers are very familiar with punishment callous and the savvier ones make sure to train in such a way where punishment is used very sparingly because they *know* the dog will eventually get used to it and it will lose it's power to motivate.
> ...


Fortunately I haven't actually had this, the headcollars remain very helpful.

Just to update everyone who kindly posted: we returned to using the *Dogmatic *today. We stopped using it because the size that Dex is comfortable in is too big - so I've paired it with a half check collar and a double ended lead (I always use this lead) and today he walked really well on it. Not a single lunge as every time he was worried by anything he looked at me, bless him.

I really relate to a lot of what MALMUM says and I think inevitably, one can become tense with reactive dogs - which of course only aggravates the dog's problems!


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## Guest (May 19, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Hi Malmum, I wanted to address this both for you and OBYL and anyone else who struggles to control a big dog.
> 
> The biggest reason these tools initially work and then seem to stop working is because of a phenomenon called a "punishment callous". Don't be offended by the term, it simply refers to a type of habituation where the dog basically gets used to the tool. It's just like owners who tell their puppies "no, no, no, no, no" 100 times a day and then wonder why pretty soon the pup completely ignores the "no".
> Compulsion trainers are very familiar with punishment callous and the savvier ones make sure to train in such a way where punishment is used very sparingly because they *know* the dog will eventually get used to it and it will lose it's power to motivate.
> ...


I would give you more rep for this but PF won't let me for this lol.

I prefer to see headcollar and what not as safety nets, that little bit of back up when you need it. It may not stop a lunge when a lunge is really really wanted but like Suzanne says it helps me keep hold of the lead. :lol:


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## Guest (May 19, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Fortunately I haven't actually had this, the headcollars remain very helpful.
> 
> Just to update everyone who kindly posted: we returned to using the *Dogmatic *today. We stopped using it because the size that Dex is comfortable in is too big - so I've paired it with a half check collar and a double ended lead (I always use this lead) and today he walked really well on it. Not a single lunge as every time he was worried by anything he looked at me, bless him.
> 
> I really relate to a lot of what MALMUM says and I think inevitably, one can become tense with reactive dogs - which of course only aggravates the dog's problems!


The point isn't that 'headcollars aren't effective after a while' (Although this may be true for some dogs) the point is that when you use a headcollar, you may become too reliant on the headcollar and only see the headcollar as THE only way to train your dog. The idea is that, whether you intend to use a headcollar/harness as equipment or not, the *MOST important thing is the connection between you and your dog and whether your actual training is effective regardless of equipment.*

But I may be wrong, Ouesi be free to correct me.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

The reason that things like head collars dont often continue to work past the initial stages I believe anyway, is that people expect them to be the be all and end all of the problem and the total fix. They are really only at the end of the day an aid
to be used along with other behaviour modification and training. 

I used one on Kobi when younger as he had re-directed fear agression from outside stimuli, and would as he couldnt take flight jump up and nip like crazy, ending up with bruised arms and legs and anything else in range and he also managed to demolish a couple of jackets too. But be using the head collar to keep control when he had what was practically a panic attack, and also doing behaviour modification and training together with densensitisation along with the use of the head collar, eventually he didnt need one at all and still doesnt to this day.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> The point isn't that 'headcollars aren't effective after a while' (Although this may be true for some dogs) the point is that when you use a headcollar, you may become too reliant on the headcollar and only see the headcollar as THE only way to train your dog. The idea is that, whether you intend to use a headcollar/harness as equipment or not, the *MOST important thing is the connection between you and your dog and whether your actual training is effective regardless of equipment.*
> 
> But I may be wrong, Ouesi be free to correct me.


I agree and I've never, ever thought that a headcollar was the only way to address a dog's problems.

I'd have to say - sorry I know this is probably getting boring! - that it's the 'watch me' that for us, has made the biggest difference.

The point I've tried to make is that it was partly the headcollar which *enabled* me to train the 'watch me'.


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## Guest (May 19, 2013)

LurcherOwner said:


> The point isn't that 'headcollars aren't effective after a while' (Although this may be true for some dogs) the point is that when you use a headcollar, you may become too reliant on the headcollar and only see the headcollar as THE only way to train your dog. The idea is that, whether you intend to use a headcollar/harness as equipment or not, the *MOST important thing is the connection between you and your dog and whether your actual training is effective regardless of equipment.*
> 
> But I may be wrong, Ouesi be free to correct me.


Yes, that was my point 
It's not about "how can I control my dog" but "how can I connect with my dog."

I think a lot of people equate dog training (and child training for that matter) with controlling the trainee. I don't see it that way (not saying I'm "right" just saying that's not how I see it). 
Rather training is about the relationship, the connection. The dog chooses to engage with you over every other potential reinforcer. Susan Garrett calls it "be the cookie"


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> *Well, the 'watch me' has worked for us, because whereas before Dex would lunge countless times, every time he saw something 'odd', now he hardly ever lunges because he looks at me instead when he's unsure/scared.*
> 
> He's walking really nicely, so I'm not about to change anything right now.


This is exactly what I was trying to say, by retraining with the watch me which in dex case is successful he now automatically looks to you when unsure instead of focusing on the stimulus and reacting in most cases. So I assume from this the Head collar isnt brought into play very much at all and now used as just an extra precaution in case that added bit of control is needed. So you are not depending on it as the fix at all. Which is IMO the correct way to use it as an aid whilst retraining or an extra precaution until you have overcome the problem entirely. Which is exactly what I did with Kobi. So as far as I can see your not misusing it at all.


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## Guest (May 19, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I'd have to say - sorry I know this is probably getting boring! - that it's the 'watch me' that for us, has made the biggest difference.


Did you read what I wrote about turning the watch me in to a default cue? I think that step would take you even further.



Sled dog hotel said:


> So as far as I can see your not misusing it at all.


I don't get the feeling anyone thinks she's misusing any tool, just trying to help her get to where she doesn't need the restraining tools at all


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

LurcherOwner said:


> The point isn't that 'headcollars aren't effective after a while' (Although this may be true for some dogs) the point is that when you use a headcollar, you may become too reliant on the headcollar and only see the headcollar as THE only way to train your dog. The idea is that, whether you intend to use a headcollar/harness as equipment or not, the *MOST important thing is the connection between you and your dog and whether your actual training is effective regardless of equipment.*
> 
> But I may be wrong, Ouesi be free to correct me.


But that is exactly what OBAYL has been doing, Dex was a reactive nightmare initially, Now with teaching an alternative behaviour in OBAYLS case the watch me, which has worked so well Dex now automatically looks at OBAYL to check in instead of focusing on the stimulus and reacting, the dog has obviously got a connection with OBAYL. OK there may still be the odd stimulus and he is still a work in progress in a few areas, so the use of the Head collar still isnt a bad thing while he deals with the last of the problems.

Theres nothing wrong with a head collar anyway, if the dogs habituated, and trained to it and its fitted and used properly. In fact it was a CAPBT, APDT dog behaviourist and trainer that introduced the use of one for Kobis problem,
although I did buy one before I had in fact decided not to use it as I knew that if used incorrectly it could exacerbate the problem. Then when I went to the behaviourist she introduced one anyway, only a different type where you could adjust both the nose strap and the collar strap for a more perfect comfortable fit. Where as I had purchased although not used as said a Halti, that you can ony adjust the neck strap to fit perfectly.


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## Guest (May 19, 2013)

I did not say at any point that OBAYL specifically relied on only on her headcollar did I? I have said that it is good that she has achieved what she has so far with the 'watch me'. But wouldn't it be nice to have a dog that would not bug out when it looked at its trigger? All I was saying was relaying what Ouesi said in a different way because at the time I wasn't entirely sure OBAYL had gotten it, which is fine.

This thread is going in complete circles. This is the *last* time I am commenting now. We have given opinion and help, and I hope that we hear soon about how Dex's problems are being slowly overcome in other ways then not letting him look at the thing that is freaking him out.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Yes, that was my point
> It's not about "how can I control my dog" but "how can I connect with my dog."
> 
> I think a lot of people equate dog training (and child training for that matter) with controlling the trainee. I don't see it that way (not saying I'm "right" just saying that's not how I see it).
> Rather training is about the relationship, the connection. The dog chooses to engage with you over every other potential reinforcer. Susan Garrett calls it "be the cookie"


The second trainer that we had, the one that did help me, put it in a way I loved. She told me: 'It's not a question of one of you being the boss. This is about getting you and Dex working as a partnership.'

That always stayed with me.

*THANKS SLED DOG HOTEL *


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## Guest (May 19, 2013)

LurcherOwner said:


> I did not say at any point that OBAYL specifically relied on only on her headcollar did I? I have said that it is good that she has achieved what she has so far with the 'watch me'. *But wouldn't it be nice to have a dog that would not bug out when it looked at its trigger?* All I was saying was relaying what Ouesi said in a different way because at the time I wasn't entirely sure OBAYL had gotten it, which is fine.
> 
> This thread is going in complete circles. This is the *last* time I am commenting now. We have given opinion and help, and I hope that we hear soon about how Dex's problems are being slowly overcome in other ways then not letting him look at the thing that is freaking him out.


To the bolded - exactly. It's not about making sure the dog never gets over aroused. It's about the dog learning to SELF regulate to where he gets aroused and is able to de-escalate himself. Self-control - the dog controls himself vs. the owner controlling the dog with a verbal cue or a physical tool.

I too feel like this is going around in circles. It's frustrating because no one wants to see someone struggling - this is all offered in a spirit of helpfulness, not criticism or judgement.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> I have never used one so can't comment on personally experience but I have seen them being used - as theres no 'stopper' other than the dogs neck I cant really understand how it can not tighten.
> 
> But we will always disagree on that - Its just not something I would use point blank.
> 
> ...


I need to look into this  I do have a book on TT. I find it amazing that just touching a dog can help certain problems.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Pupcakes said:


> I need to look into this  I do have a book on TT. I find it amazing that just touching a dog can help certain problems.


You might find these interesting.

Sarah Fisher from TTouch UK introduces TTouch - YouTube

Tellington TTouch - Sarah Fisher - Discover Dogs - YouTube


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ouesi said:


> To the bolded - exactly. It's not about making sure the dog never gets over aroused. It's about the dog learning to SELF regulate to where he gets aroused and is able to de-escalate himself. Self-control - the dog controls himself vs. the owner controlling the dog with a verbal cue or a physical tool.
> 
> I too feel like this is going around in circles. It's frustrating because no one wants to see someone struggling - this is all offered in a spirit of helpfulness, not criticism or judgement.


But in time with progress surely thats what happens anyway. If a dog is over aroused and freaking out at various triggers in Kobis case it was literally anything and everything. You cant begin to even get them to self regulate not initally they are often incapable or some are.
They are so anxious/stressed/fearful and off their heads in some cases they often wont respond to anything else anyway even treats in a lot of cases. So by inititally keeping them under threshold and becoming more and more relaxed in general, you can then begin to introduce the stimulus be it sights sounds or situations gradually at a speed they can cope with later.

The owners got to be able to control the situation and threshold initially and for awhile surely as the dog cant control and de-esclate himself at least at first. If anything they will just escalate more and more when at their worst.
Kobi did, its not until he was in a better place by initially being kept under threshold that I could even begin to de sensitise him/ de-escalate call it what you will and have self control as it just didnt exist he had none at all originally when he couldnt cope.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> You might find these interesting.
> 
> Sarah Fisher from TTouch UK introduces TTouch - YouTube
> 
> Tellington TTouch - Sarah Fisher - Discover Dogs - YouTube


Thank you SDH!


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## Guest (May 20, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> But in time with progress surely thats what happens anyway.


With lower drive dogs, it may. But since it hasn't happened yet with Dex, and his owner would like for it to, why not specifically train for it and get there sooner rather than later? 
I'm not one to leave something like my dog learning to calm himself down up to chance. From where I'm standing, reactive dogs don't look like they're having much fun, and their owners sure don't look like they are. If I can speed the process up, for the benefit of both dog and owner, I will. 
OBYL has said on several occasions that she would love to not have to use a head collar at all, I'm just trying to help her get there.



Sled dog hotel said:


> If a dog is over aroused and freaking out at various triggers in Kobis case it was literally anything and everything. You cant begin to even get them to self regulate not initally they are often incapable or some are.
> They are so anxious/stressed/fearful and off their heads in some cases they often wont respond to anything else anyway even treats in a lot of cases. So by inititally keeping them under threshold and becoming more and more relaxed in general, you can then begin to introduce the stimulus be it sights sounds or situations gradually at a speed they can cope with later.
> 
> The owners got to be able to control the situation and threshold initially and for awhile surely as the dog cant control and de-esclate himself at least at first. If anything they will just escalate more and more when at their worst.
> Kobi did, its not until he was in a better place by initially being kept under threshold that I could even begin to de sensitise him/ de-escalate call it what you will and have self control as it just didnt exist he had none at all originally when he couldnt cope.


I'm not talking about putting a dog over threshold, I even said that in my post. I'm not talking about desensitization and counter conditioning, though of course both would be part of a b-mod program. 
If I'm reading OBYL's posts correctly, she has already done the DS/CC work successfully. She *can* control Dex and keep him under threshold.

What I'm understanding is that she wants to go to the next level and I'm offering her ideas that will help her to achieve that.

I'm talking about a dog who is presented with a trigger, who is *not* given a cue, and who chooses *on his own* to engage with the handler instead.
The trigger now becomes a cue for the dog to reorient to the handler.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ouesi said:


> With lower drive dogs, it may. But since it hasn't happened yet with Dex, and his owner would like for it to,* why not specifically train for it and get there sooner rather than later?
> I'm not one to leave something like my dog learning to calm himself down up to chance.* From where I'm standing, reactive dogs don't look like they're having much fun, and their owners sure don't look like they are. * If I can speed the process up, for the benefit of both dog and owner, I will.*
> OBYL has said on several occasions that she would love to not have to use a head collar at all, I'm just trying to help her get there.


Here in lies the problem though, with some dogs its not a matter of getting there sooner then later. Some it has to be later as if you try other things before they are ready it may not work and even make them revert. At the end of the day you can only work at one speed and thats the dogs and what he/she is capable of at that given time, and what the problems are and the reasons for the behaviour in the first place. No ones suggesting to leave the dog to calm hiself down or leave it up to chance. Without some form of training they wont learn to cope and not react. Its horses for courses though, just because you did it one way, doesnt mean thats the right way for all dogs. Which is the problem with a lot of trainers who use the one size fits all approach and the same methods all the time. You have to work with the individual and what method works for them and constantly come up with other ways to tackle the problem and retrain for that individual and the problem in question if the latter doesnt work, which to all intense and purposes from what OBAYL says it has worked on Dex.

From what I gather from OBAYLS post Dex is able in a high percentage of cases to cope and will defer to her in a lot of situations that he didnt before.
There is though certain situations still where he will still react. So he is still a work in progess, so it may well be better to carry on at the moment and solve the last of the problems before actually testing his abilities further with other methods that given time will work better then.

Maybe it hasnt worked completely yet with Dex in all situations as he is still a work in progress. 95% of the time which I think OBAYL mentioned isnt a bad batting average from where he started, so its not a fact of it isnt working because he wouldnt have made that amount of progress in the first place.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Just doing a bit of snooping looking at TTouch and Sarah Fisher runs a practice 15minutes away from me! I bought her book a long time ago but will be ringing up either today or tomorrow to see if I can book an appointment! Looks very interesting. Is this something you may try OBAYL? Has anyone on here tried it?

xxx


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Pupcakes said:


> Just doing a bit of snooping looking at TTouch and Sarah Fisher runs a practice 15minutes away from me! I bought her book a long time ago but will be ringing up either today or tomorrow to see if I can book an appointment! Looks very interesting. Is this something you may try OBAYL? Has anyone on here tried it?
> 
> xxx


Thats great news that you have a practice so close!! Although not officially trained I use the techniques what Ive picked up on Kobi and he loves it. He will move around to what bits he wants done too if Im working on one part. I use it because he has lameness probs here and there which we never could get to the bottom of, so he has tightness in the shoulders area when he has a flare up which was inititally the main reason, but his nibs has also decided he just likes it now Trouble is Nanuq also decided she wants a go too, and will come and position herself to get some as well now. So from that I take it, its something they really do find enjoyable and relaxing in general.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Thats great news that you have a practice so close!! Although not officially trained I use the techniques what Ive picked up on Kobi and he loves it. He will move around to what bits he wants done too if Im working on one part. I use it because he has lameness probs here and there which we never could get to the bottom of, so he has tightness in the shoulders area when he has a flare up which was inititally the main reason, but his nibs has also decided he just likes it now Trouble is Nanuq also decided she wants a go too, and will come and position herself to get some as well now. So from that I take it, its something they really do find enjoyable and relaxing in general.


Thanks SDH! Im so glad you can help Kobi, like you said, there must be something in it that they enjoy if not they wouldnt all be queuing up for more! Im very interested in how it helps reactive/aggressive dogs, Ive tried massage before with The Terrors and Charlie loves it cause hes an attention lover, Dottie was a bit so-so about it!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Pupcakes said:


> Just doing a bit of snooping looking at TTouch and Sarah Fisher runs a practice 15minutes away from me! I bought her book a long time ago but will be ringing up either today or tomorrow to see if I can book an appointment! Looks very interesting. Is this something you may try OBAYL? Has anyone on here tried it?
> 
> xxx


I did a day's workshop with Kilo when he was about 6 months old, I very much enjoyed it .


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

*

Thanks SLED DOG HOTEL and OUESI!*

We're at a point now where Dex is just starting to not need to 'watch me' for a few triggers. He looks at whatever is worrying him, and then just carries on walking rather than looking at me - I'm assuming this is progress?

It's only happening a little bit but I'm hoping it's a sign of the next stage of improvement.

*OUESI *not sure if I'm understanding your suggestions for moving to the next step?

Thanks everyone 

PUPCAKES: yes, I'm reading up about TT too


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> *
> 
> Thanks SLED DOG HOTEL and OUESI!*
> 
> ...


If he can actually look at triggers now that previously he reacted too without even needing the watch me etc and doesnt react and walks on by himself then I would say thats progress. I found personally thats what happened with Kobi the reactiveness stopped and the things that bothered him before and that would previously set him off ceased, bit by bit it got less and less to the point where even major things, he didnt even blink at or react too.


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## Guest (May 20, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Here in lies the problem though, with some dogs its not a matter of getting there sooner then later. Some it has to be later as if you try other things before they are ready it may not work and even make them revert.Impulse control can be taught at any age, any stage. Relationships can be forged at any age, any stage. It's not an either or, it's a both. At the end of the day you can only work at one speed and thats the dogs and what he/she is capable of at that given time, and what the problems are and the reasons for the behaviour in the first place. No ones suggesting to leave the dog to calm hiself down or leave it up to chance. Without some form of training they wont learn to cope and not react. Which is why I suggested training.Its horses for courses though, just because you did it one way, doesnt mean thats the right way for all dogs. I did not suggest *one* way. I suggested *several* differnt options. I suggested *several* different books with *several* different exercises and combinations there of. I also very explicitly said "it all depends on what works best for that dog and handler combination."Which is the problem with a lot of trainers who use the one size fits all approach and the same methods all the time.Aww... what a cute little dig. Very mature of you SDH  You have to work with the individual and what method works for them and constantly come up with other ways to tackle the problem and retrain for that individual and the problem in question if the latter doesnt work, which to all intense and purposes from what OBAYL says it has worked on Dex.Hrm... sounds like the same thing I said in this post about 4 pages ago
> 
> 
> ouesi said:
> ...


Please point to me where I said anything wasn't working?

I don't know why folks are being so combative every time someone else suggests an altrenative to the status quo of manage and desensitize.

I'm simply sharing what I know about adding in impulse control, engagement, and relationship building to a protocol of management and desensitization.

I'm not suggesting anything dangerous or harmful, I'm just throwing ideas out there. 
Is that not what forums are for? An exchange of ideas? Sharing of experiences?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Pupcakes said:


> Thanks SDH! Im so glad you can help Kobi, like you said, there must be something in it that they enjoy if not they wouldnt all be queuing up for more! Im very interested in how it helps reactive/aggressive dogs, Ive tried massage before with The Terrors and Charlie loves it cause hes an attention lover, Dottie was a bit so-so about it!


Anything that can help them relax and is a stress buster cant be a bad thing.
Usually the more relaxed and de stressed a dog is the less likely they are going to react to things.

What the behaviourist told me and makes complete sense, if that if you think of a dogs stress levels on a scale of 1/10 and his reactive level really starts when he gets to say a 6, up to that he is calmer more relaxed and can cope better, once he gets to the 6 and his stress levels rise more and more still he can cope with less and less, so his reaction time will be quicker and more severe when he does go off on one.

If you therefore have a dog that goes out already at a 3/4 on the scale, then he is going to react quicker and more severely then a dog who starts off at a 1/2 on the scale.

Hope Ive explained this properly?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> If he can actually look at triggers now that previously he reacted too without even needing the watch me etc and doesnt react and walks on by himself then I would say thats progress. I found personally thats what happened with Kobi the reactiveness stopped and the things that bothered him before and that would previously set him off ceased, bit by bit it got less and less to the point where even major things, he didnt even blink at or react too.


Thanks SDH 

With major triggers, did Kobi go quickly over threshold?

I suspect that's the bit I'll need help with, with Dex, from a trainer. I don't think I'll be able to get him over his fear of horses, for instance.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Please point to me where I said anything wasn't working?
> 
> I don't know why folks are being so combative every time someone else suggests an altrenative to the status quo of manage and desensitize.
> 
> ...


Oh wind your neck in. Wasnt having a dig at your or anyone else. Just talking generally about some trainers which is absolutely true. Flaming eck maybe you should take your own advice about looking at a trigger and being able to be self limiting in your reactions.

Thats what Im doing sharing experiences of what worked with an extremely reactive dog and other similar experiences which have worked with other dogs. Where did I say you were wrong I was just trying to discuss my thoughts about some of your comments in a proper adult discussion.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Thanks SDH
> 
> With major triggers, did Kobi go quickly over threshold?
> 
> I suspect that's the bit I'll need help with, with Dex, from a trainer. I don't think I'll be able to get him over his fear of horses, for instance.


Kobi used to appear absolutely fine one minute and then absolutely go off his head, and re-direct when he couldnt exercise flight. Once he went over threshold that was it. He would continue to do it until I got him home again.If over things happenened that upset him on the way, even once he appeared to have calmed down enough. Once his threshold was busted that was it.
Have you ever seen the clip of storm the Malamute with Cesar Millain. (not the way CM dealt with it) how the dog was that was Kobi.

cesar millan.Alaskan Malamute-1

There you go, if you havent seen it thats exactly what Kobi Did and how he reacted.

And you thought Dex was bad

As said not for how the way it was tackled by CM because thats not what I did just so you can see how bad he was. He is fine now but it took a lot of work and a long time. In fact its an example of how not to tackle it.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Kobi used to appear absolutely fine one minute and then absolutely go off his head, and re-direct when he couldnt exercise flight. Once he went over threshold that was it. He would continue to do it until I got him home again.If over things happenened that upset him on the way, even once he appeared to have calmed down enough. Once his threshold was busted that was it.
> Have you ever seen the clip of storm the Malamute with Cesar Millain. (not the way CM dealt with it) how the dog was that was Kobi.
> 
> cesar millan.Alaskan Malamute-1
> ...


Crikey. I do recognise the leaping and intensity, that's what Dex does. BUT thank goodness there is none of the mouthing or nipping. And I know how strong Malamutes are. You must have worked really hard with Kobi to overcome that


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I did a day's workshop with Kilo when he was about 6 months old, I very much enjoyed it .


What benefits did you see George if you dont mind me asking? And do you still use it with the boys? I need a bloody massage too after a long walk!

xxx


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Anything that can help them relax and is a stress buster cant be a bad thing.
> Usually the more relaxed and de stressed a dog is the less likely they are going to react to things.
> 
> What the behaviourist told me and makes complete sense, if that if you think of a dogs stress levels on a scale of 1/10 and his reactive level really starts when he gets to say a 6, up to that he is calmer more relaxed and can cope better, once he gets to the 6 and his stress levels rise more and more still he can cope with less and less, so his reaction time will be quicker and more severe when he does go off on one.
> ...


Yeah that makes sense thank you SDH! xxx


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Pupcakes said:


> What benefits did you see George if you dont mind me asking? And do you still use it with the boys? I need a bloody massage too after a long walk!
> 
> xxx


The touches are calming but I especially liked the groundwork, very good for gangly, rapidly - growing pups.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Anything that can help them relax and is a stress buster cant be a bad thing.
> Usually the more relaxed and de stressed a dog is the less likely they are going to react to things.
> 
> What the behaviourist told me and makes complete sense, if that if you think of a dogs stress levels on a scale of 1/10 and his reactive level really starts when he gets to say a 6, up to that he is calmer more relaxed and can cope better, once he gets to the 6 and his stress levels rise more and more still he can cope with less and less, so his reaction time will be quicker and more severe when he does go off on one.
> ...


That is what i have found to be the absolute key. Sometimes depending where you live that reduction in stress and maintaining it can be the biggest effort.
Keeping ninja calmer overall which sounded really boring in theory has actually resulted in a dog who is far less reactive and actually the more she has relaxed the more her character has come through.

Sorry realise that has nothing to do with headcollars


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> I know it wasn't about your dog thats why i marked it differently *I thought terrible to advise ramming a headcollar on a dog and then ignore it till is shut down.*
> 
> You asked me to prove that you were regularly saying Dex is strong and reactive... I simply spent 5 minutes doing what you asked.


In fact, I never said anything like what you claim - I simply remarked that **sometimes** one has to ignore a dog's tantrum.

And I was reminded of this post of yours today; I've been re-reading 'The Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson and as it happens, she mentions headcollars.

Since you felt it necessary to totally twist my words from another thread (see above in bold italics), I thought in fairness I'd just quote Jean Donaldson:

She starts by praising headcollars and outlining both the advantages and disadvantages. Then she says:

'The adjustment period is over quickly if the owner handles the first few experiences properly. *This means not giving in and removing the halter if the dog throws a tantrum.'*

Hmmm....perhaps you should contact Jean Donaldson and explain how 'terrible' her advice is.....?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

There's a hell of a difference between a tantrum and a dog genuinely distressed about something. And Jean Donaldsons way of introducing a head collar means that there should be no tantrums in the first place to be fair.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> There's a hell of a difference between a tantrum and a dog genuinely distressed about something. And Jean Donaldsons way of introducing a head collar means that there should be no tantrums in the first place to be fair.


Er, well she clearly thinks there may be - she actually states to not pay heed to 'tantrums'.

Quite apart from which, I was badly misquoted, my words twisted totally.

All I actually said was to 'ignore a tantrum', among many other things.

Nobody likes to have their words twisted and I have every right to call someone out when they do it.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Isn't it about time to let this go?


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I had previously quoted your exact words on this thread... the words you have quoted are clearly my own. This drama is becoming somewhat tiresome.


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## Guest (May 23, 2013)

*Let This Thread DIE!*


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> I had previously quoted your exact words on this thread... the words you have quoted are clearly my own. This drama is becoming somewhat tiresome.


LOL LOL - so when you blatantly twist my words to make out I've given 'terrible' advice, that's fine.

When I simply counter your post, that becomes a 'drama'?

Whatever you say 

If it's that 'tiresome', you don't have to read this thread nor post on it.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> *Let This Thread DIE!*


If someone twists my words that badly, I'm going to counter it.

If people are fed up with this thread they don't have to keep reading it.


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## Guest (May 23, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> If someone twists my words that badly, I'm going to counter it.
> 
> If people are fed up with this thread they don't have to keep reading it.


*Yeah? And you don't have to keep posting either. You have a problem with a member go via PM or something. *


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> *Yeah? And you don't have to keep posting either. You have a problem with a member go via PM or something. *


Really no need to 'shout' - if you can't be civil don't post.

I have no issue with anyone - simply don't like my words being twisted.

Why shouldn't I keep posting? I'm not the one complaining that the thread needs to 'die'.


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## Guest (May 23, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Really no need to 'shout' - if you can't be civil don't post.
> 
> I have no issue with anyone - simply don't like my words being twisted.
> 
> Why shouldn't I keep posting? I'm not the one complaining that the thread needs to 'die'.


Why? Because you say the same damn things over and over and over. You ignore genuine advice only to listen to those who have similar problems to you.
You insist that Dex automatically looks at you while in the same thread say he goes insane at his triggers. That's why!!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Er, well she clearly thinks there may be - she actually states to not pay heed to 'tantrums'.


Quite likely because mistakes happen and there is always a chance you'll accidentally push the dog beyond what it can accept. And because sometimes dogs have a tantrum simply at being thwarted in something. Spen had them about not going to the field we pass on the way back home from the woods. And yeah, they get ignored and we work on impulse control.

But so many people just shove a headcollar on a dog and ignore the distress it causes and would quite likely simply pass that off as a "tantrum" when it's anything but.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> Why? Because you say the same damn things over and over and over. You ignore genuine advice only to listen to those who have similar problems to you.
> You insist that Dex automatically looks at you while in the same thread say he goes insane at his triggers. That's why!!


Er - where have I 'ignored genuine advice'?

And even IF I do at some point, what business is that of yours - do YOU follow every bit of advice you get???

I've followed advice - ordered a front attaching harness and contacted a trainer. So much for 'ignoring'!

You are getting really rude and quite hostile - what business is it of yours if I keep posting? Since when did you get to decide when I can and can't post 

If you don't like a thread - ignore it. Really quite simple.

As for your misunderstanding of what is happening with Dex - I haven't even mentioned him again so what the hell is your problem?

And to correct you: yes he automatically looks at me except for the big triggers: horses and cats.

Again, not rocket science to understand that.

Getting tired of your unwarranted criticisms. If my posts irritate you SO much, don't read 'em!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

LurcherOwner said:


> Why? Because you say the same damn things over and over and over.* You ignore genuine advice only to listen to those who have similar problems to you.*
> You insist that Dex automatically looks at you while in the same thread say he goes insane at his triggers. That's why!!


I sure hope that isnt a pop at me. Because I dont have the problems now, hence the reason for the advice that I happened to give.


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## Guest (May 23, 2013)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I sure hope that isnt a pop at me. Because I dont have the problems now, hence the reason for the advice that I happened to give.


No it is not a pop.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Ohhh wait could be a pop at me- I have a big lump of reactive dog also called Dex - omg and have used headcollars!!!! Someone shoot me right now this instant! 

Come on folks keep it pleasant!


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

What on earth happened in this thread yesterday 



Lexiedhb said:


> Ohhh wait could be a pop at me- I have a big lump of reactive dog also called Dex - omg and have used headcollars!!!! Someone shoot me right now this instant!
> 
> Come on folks keep it pleasant!


I think the majority of respondants were most definately not having a pop at those who use headcollars.

Alot of those who responded have first hand experience of using them themselves. :thumbup1:


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Milliepoochie said:


> What on earth happened in this thread yesterday
> 
> I think the majority of respondants were most definately not having a pop at those who use headcollars.
> 
> Alot of those who responded have first hand experience of using them themselves. :thumbup1:


I wasnt talking about the majority, most advice has been fabby. Yes folk have had first hand experience using them- just not with OBAYL's dog. I've used them, I no longer do, but that is with MY dog, and his reasons. Cant say i would not use them in the future.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Simply for accuracy this is a video of Jean Donaldson introducing a gentle leader.

Jean Donaldson gets conditioned emotional response while fitting Gentle Leader - YouTube

Doesn't look like she's just putting on a headcollar that's a good fit and ignoring tantrums to me.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> Simply for accuracy this is a video of Jean Donaldson introducing a gentle leader.
> 
> Jean Donaldson gets conditioned emotional response while fitting Gentle Leader - YouTube
> 
> Doesn't look like she's just putting on a headcollar that's a good fit and ignoring tantrums to me.


I quoted from her directly, from her own book The Culture Clash. Please, don't take my word for it - if you have the book, you can see for yourself.

My issue with you is that you unfairly twisted my words.

LOL interesting how I got really 'screamed' at for still posting on this thread but hey, when you post, that's all good....

RE THE LINK

- just to note, she is using her own dog in this clip, so hardly surprising there are no tantrums. That said, I agree it's a good example, a great example, of how to help a dog get used to a headcollar.


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## Guest (May 24, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I quoted from her directly, from her own book The Culture Clash. Please, don't take my word for it - if you have the book, you can see for yourself.
> 
> My issue with you is that you unfairly twisted my words.
> 
> ...


The Culture Clash is fifteen years old, there probably wasn't any damage studies done on headcollars then. But yes, it is a good desensitisation video.
Well you DID bring back the thread only to have a pop at someone yourself, that may be why I wished for the thread to die again at that moment.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I've found the bit in the culture clash you are refering to, OBAYL. Having read it I would say that I strongly disagree with Jean Donaldson on that one. She says they work without employing pain. I think they do, at least any with any tightening aspect do. The book was written 15 years ago and I think the knowledge displayed of the actual effects of headcollars is out of date. Personally. It would be interesting to see if her opinion has changed. It is also interesting that part of the reason she likes them is because they make the dog "look cute". :001_huh:

She's Jean Donaldson, not the Pope and or God, and the Culture Clash (while it is a very important and pivotal work in dog training literature) is not the bible. I use the religious analogy with tongue firmly in cheek here. 

Interestingly she also says at the end of the book a one line, no discussion of advantages/disadvantages etc to spey or neuter your dog. Something else with which I have to disagree with her on. And something else that is a point of view that is increasingly out of date.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Slightly to the side- what do folk think of headcollars on horses then?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> - just to note, she is using her own dog in this clip, so hardly surprising there are no tantrums. That said, I agree it's a good example, a great example, of how to help a dog get used to a headcollar.


I'd hesitate to call the reaction a lot of dogs have tantrums to be honest because from what I've seen of dogs in headcollars it's more like real discomfort.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

The horse's neck is a hell of a lot stronger than a dogs - compared to the strength that can be exerted by a human handler. Plus _most_ people use flat headcollars that don't tighten. There's a whole load of issues to be explored in the way we handle and train horses but essentially it is a whole different kettle of fish to the way we hande and train dogs - the difference in size and temperament alone means that comparing the two has minimal value.

Put it this way, even with a headcollar, if my horse decides she's off and all respect for any training goes completely out of the window - that's it I'm screwed. Fortunately 99.9% of the time the training that has been put into her holds sway! Amazingly this seems to be true for 99% of horses.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> The horse's neck is a hell of a lot stronger than a dogs - compared to the strength that can be exerted by a human handler. Plus _most_ people use flat headcollars that don't tighten. There's a whole load of issues to be explored in the way we handle and train horses but essentially it is a whole different kettle of fish to the way we hande and train dogs - the difference in size and temperament alone means that comparing the two has minimal value.
> 
> Put it this way, even with a headcollar, if my horse decides she's off and all respect for any training goes completely out of the window - that's it I'm screwed. Fortunately 99.9% of the time the training that has been put into her holds sway! Amazingly this seems to be true for 99% of horses.


All very true. Folk do tend to tie horses to things tho that are stronger than them- some without a breakable tether, even with one dependent on circumstance a horse "could" injure itself.

As for tantrums- I took ages with my do desensitising to a headcollar- gentle leader it was so no tightening action- and he tantrumed- he was not in pain- he just point blank refused to move- removing the headcollar at this point would have meant one thing and one thing only- he learnt "I refuse to move, this thing gets removed"

My dog was always quite happy to walk in his headcollar, it only failed us when he was reacting.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Slightly to the side- what do folk think of headcollars on horses then?


I know next to nothing about horses so can't really say. I do know they don't seem to sit right below the horses eyes though. And would assume that horses are trained to walk on them since I would think that even with a headcollar on a horse is far, far stronger than a human. Unlike with dogs where it's often used as a way of physically overpowering them.

I'm not totally anti headcollar with dogs, I think in some cases they're fine, in other cases they're cruel because even if they don't inflict physical pain they're clearly causing the dog distress.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> The Culture Clash is fifteen years old, there probably wasn't any damage studies done on headcollars then. But yes, it is a good desensitisation video.
> Well you DID bring back the thread only to have a pop at someone yourself, that may be why I wished for the thread to die again at that moment.


*sigh*

No, I did not 'have a pop'.

I merely countered the twisting of my words.

I think I acknowledged how old the book was when I first mentioned it....?

It's pretty simple: if you dislike a thread so much, just ignore it!

Ah well.... at least you've stopped 'shouting'....


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Werehorse said:


> I've found the bit in the culture clash you are refering to, OBAYL. Having read it I would say that I strongly disagree with Jean Donaldson on that one. She says they work without employing pain. I think they do, at least any with any tightening aspect do. The book was written 15 years ago and I think the knowledge displayed of the actual effects of headcollars is out of date. Personally. It would be interesting to see if her opinion has changed. It is also interesting that part of the reason she likes them is because they make the dog "look cute". :001_huh:
> 
> She's Jean Donaldson, not the Pope and or God, and the Culture Clash (while it is a very important and pivotal work in dog training literature) is not the bible. I use the religious analogy with tongue firmly in cheek here.
> 
> Interestingly she also says at the end of the book a one line, no discussion of advantages/disadvantages etc to spey or neuter your dog. Something else with which I have to disagree with her on. And something else that is a point of view that is increasingly out of date.


You make some interesting points WEREHORSE. I agree with you, I was a bit surprised when she says the headcollars 'look cute'


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## Guest (May 24, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> *sigh*
> 
> No, I did not 'have a pop'.
> 
> ...


Oh come on, you must *KNOW* how hard this is to do. 
I'm thinking about the kind of threads where someone is really really excited about their new cross-breed puppy that they have gotten....


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Perhaps there is one thing we can all agree on:

We all adore our dogs and none of us would ever, ever use something on them that caused them pain or discomfort or distress.

e.g yes I use headcollars, but the second I try one and Dex makes it clear he's not happy with it, the headcollar comes off and is never used again. i.e. leather dogmatic.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> Oh come on, you must *KNOW* how hard this is to do.
> I'm thinking about the kind of threads where someone is really really excited about their new cross-breed puppy that they have gotten....


 

You're not seriously trying to drag a whole other forum into this thread???

Yes - I bang on about health tests for *BOTH* crossbreeds and purebreeds. So sue me.

It's becoming painfully clear, to me and to various others who have contacted me, that you seem to have an axe to grind. Perhaps you could just put me on 'ignore' since it's evident my posts aggravate you. At any rate, many of your comments have no place in this thread.

Put me on ignore - I'll be most happy to return the favour.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

I've just read this thread and am genuinely confused OBAYL. Are people only meant to reply if they agree with you?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

kat&molly said:


> I've just read this thread and am genuinely confused OBAYL. Are people only meant to reply if they agree with you?


Er, I genuinely thanked and responded to people who gave advice - and also acted on it, as I have stated.

Where on earth is that me only wanting to discuss things with people who agree with me???

The only times I have objected are where one or two folk are making personal remarks and misquoting me.

It's ironic - only a few days ago I PM'd LURCHEROWNER to thank them for taking the time to offer advice on this thread. Blinking wish I hadn't bothered now 

Interesting, you don't have any issues with people 'screaming' but feel fine to unjustly criticise me when I've actually TAKEN the advice offered!!!


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## Guest (May 24, 2013)

I too disagree with Jean Donaldson on head collars. I've also seen her use them, and sorry, but what she's doing is clearly aversive to the dog. We all have blindspots and I think this is one of hers. Or has been in the past at least.



Lexiedhb said:


> Slightly to the side- what do folk think of headcollars on horses then?


Horses are built a lot differently than dogs, but even so, I was always taught to be extremely careful with babies who's necks had not fully developed yet.
And horses do get neck injuries and worse from having their head restrained. I've witnessed some pretty gruesome accidents in my time...



Werehorse said:


> Put it this way, even with a headcollar, if my horse decides she's off and all respect for any training goes completely out of the window - that's it I'm screwed. Fortunately 99.9% of the time the training that has been put into her holds sway! Amazingly this seems to be true for 99% of horses.


LOL, too true. Plenty of us have gone "pasture skiing" 
And that's the thing. Equipment can only get you so far. Training gets you much further. If my dane girl decides she's going after prey, there is no equipment I know of that can stop her. However, my voice calling her name can.


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## sbonnett76 (Apr 6, 2010)

I've not gone through the 16 odd pages of comments, but before I replied I did re-read OP's first post and I might be missing something here, but I thought that she was just passing on her positive experience!

I have a reactivate rottie and we've tried a few headcollars out there. Not all, but after a few we gave the Gencon a go and I can honestly say that it's the only one that has worked for us. There's no stress around it, she shoves her face into it when it's walk time and the control it gives allows calm and serenity rather than stress and anguish. 

We swear by the watch command. It's been a Godsend to us. 

Everyone has different ways of dealing with their dogs and we all have to do what's best for our beloved pooches. It doesn't mean that any of us are right or wrong. As it goes, we've learnt that actually we're not going to "cure" Roxy of her incessantly high prey drive around small dogs, but we can manage it thanks to very tasty treats, watch, the Gencon and lots of very high pitched cheery sounding tones!


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