# want a Cavalier X breed puppy - better health issues?



## wowee (Apr 30, 2012)

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, I hope I'll meet lots of new friends.

We recently had to have Flora put to sleep. She was 14 years old, a beautiful, gentle quiet pure-bred Cavalier spaniel. We miss her dreadfully, as does our other dog, a 7 year old spaniel (we believe Cavalier crossed with king charles spaniel, we rescued her when she was 2 years old, so her exact blood line is uncertain), who is pretty down in the dumps.

So we're thinking about getting her someone else to play with.

While we are HUGE Cavalier fans in this house, I'm nervous about buying a pure bred cavvie these days, the genetic problems seem to be soo severe. Flora lived for 6 years with her heart condition, which we managed with drugs (and that wasn't what ended her life), but I would rather try to avoid that again, and the brain problems which seem to afflict many of the pups would definately not be something I would want to risk.

However, my husband is eager to find a Cavvie cross breed - hoping we would get cavvie temperament. There seem to be a few Cavvie/Shiz tzu crosses about (my ideal would be Cavvie/Westie cross, I grew up with a westie, he was lovely, but finding a pup would be difficult I guess).

Anyway, does getting a cross breed like this stand a good chance of moving away from the genetic problems which tend to get bred into the pedigree, or could it be that you would get a pup which inherits the problems of both breeds?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Not necessarily. A cross breed could inherit the worst of both sides and this includes health problems. Also most people who breed x breeds don't health test so your puppy would be more likely to develop health problems.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I'm so sorry for the loss of Flora, my mother-in-law's cavvie was about the same age when she passed & had also had heart trouble for some years too.
Sadly, getting a cross breed does not mean the dog will be healthier, they may or may not inherit problems from both parents- it's a bit of a lottery
Also worth bearing in mind is that cavaliers crossed with other breeds are very popular money makers for backyard breeders & puppy farmers, so please be careful when looking at crossbreeds. There are some crossbreed breeders (though still very few) that health test the parents.
I believe there's a lady who is campaigning to make the cavalier a healthier breed, although I can't remember her name or what her website was called, hopefully someone will be along who can help a bit more.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

the issue with cross breeding is it is *not* a marvellous 'cure-all' regarding the breed health issues - it actually widens the scope to include potential health issues from two breeds

the problem is - in theory cross breeding or back breeding can remove health issues or greatly reduce them if done correctly

However the crosses you mentioned would never be considered by a serious 'back breeder' as it would not be working towards taking the cavvie back to a point in it's breed history where the 'common' health issues don't exist

Because these crosses aren't in existence to help the breed then it's fairly unlikely that their breeders will be using top quality of _either_ breed as the parents and therefore you're almost _more_ likely to have the genetic health issues of one breed or the other

I have heard of a couple breeders that had litters of cav x tibetan spaniels and cav x cocker to try improve their lines but it's only hearsay and I don't know for sure that they were doing the fully health tests or even if it happened 

maybe look into a well bred example of the breed you want or have a look at what cross/mix breed pups are in rescue as that way you're at least providing a fab home to a dog already in the world rather than supporting a breeder that is not really trying to improve health at all

if you *can* find a cross breeder that can show you proof that both parents are fully health _tested_ (not health checked that's totally different and does not prove they are free of genetic faults)

good luck and I hope you find the perfect pooch for your family  and welcome to the forum


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## EllesBelles (May 14, 2010)

I know exactly how you feel - we lost our two to genetic issues, too.

Unfortunately, cross-breeds are just as likely to suffer. There is such wide spread conditions that most cavaliers seem to be carriers, and those who are crossed with other breeds are very likely to be infected. Lets be honest, if you had a perfectly healthy female, why wouldn't you mate it with a good male and try to further the breed? The last thing you'd think of would be to mate with a different breed entirely.

When we lost our two, I got very close to the cavalier rescue. I now regularly take on dogs who are very ill, whose owners couldn't cope with them. A great many crosses come through too - we had considered getting one, in the hope of capturing that great cavalier spirit, but we have decided not too.

If you have your heart set on a cavalier, you could consider importing one, or buying one from health-tested parents (although this is no guarantee). If you simply couldn't go through it again, I'd opt for another breed, such as Westies or something else you love. 

I'm hoping that the KC and breed clubs will step in soon - but to be honest, they seem to be happier trying to brush it under the carpet :sad:

There are members here with healthy cavs - I'm so envious when I see their pictures! - but the sad fact is that most are not. Introducing another breed just hugely increases the risks of problems - I'd either go pedigree, with very fine health-tested parents, and good insurance, or import. So far we have decided to (sadly) opt for another breed.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Although in theory you would think a cross breed more likely to be healthier and genetic problems free that isnt always the case. There are several modes of inheritance for genetic problems and disorders. Some are sex linked, some are dominant and some recessive. The most common examples although there are others is.

Autosomal Dominant - with this time you only need one copy of the rouge gene
to inherit so only one parent needs to have it to pass on and infect the pups.

Autosomal Recessive - 2 copies of the rouge gene are needed, one from mum and one from dad, the parents dont even have to be affected themsleves they can be carriers, they will never get the problems themselves but they can pass it on to the pups.

So for certain problems even though they are crosses, If only one copy is needed only one parent needs to have it and it can be passed on to the pups.

If its a disease or probblem that is in the same breed and both parents have it or are even both carriers then again the pups can inherit. It does get more involved still but just for explanation/to give you an idea.

The only way to be safe is that even though you may be getting a cross to check which each parent breed may have in the way of genetic problems and find a breeder who health tests for those problems. To help you further this website should explain about the various breed health problems. It also has lots of good general advice and links too when searching for a breeder/pup.
Dog Breed Health

As you have also mentioned specifically Cavalier king Charles/crosses another really must site is Cavalier Matters for pet folk, adice for potential and exisiting owners
Cavalier Matters - Simple Advice for Potential & Existing Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Owners


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> I'm so sorry for the loss of Flora, my mother-in-law's cavvie was about the same age when she passed & had also had heart trouble for some years too.
> Sadly, getting a cross breed does not mean the dog will be healthier, they may or may not inherit problems from both parents- it's a bit of a lottery
> Also worth bearing in mind is that cavaliers crossed with other breeds are very popular money makers for backyard breeders & puppy farmers, so please be careful when looking at crossbreeds. There are some crossbreed breeders (though still very few) that health test the parents.
> I believe there's a lady who is campaigning to make the cavalier a healthier breed, although I can't remember her name or what her website was called, hopefully someone will be along who can help a bit more.


I think you probably mean Carol Fowler who recently won a Ceva Award for Animal Welfare for her work.


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

It might sound obvious but could you stretch out to another breed? 
Maybe go back to the drawing board, KC has a lot of specific breed health information. 
It isn't always the rule but if a dog has been breed to perform a job with little intervention then the best dog at performing not the best looking is often chosen. This is not always the case but it can be a good place to start looking. 

Unfortunatly there isn't a way of knowing but if you pick a breed with a long average life span that can often be a useful indicator of health. 
One of the things we used to pick out which dogs we didn't want was life span. It is no guarantee but I picked a dog with an average lifespan of 12-14 that is considered hardy with few health problems. 
Shih tzu's have a long average lifespan as do Tibetan Spaniels, could you research another breed? 
Potentially a good breeder would be more sure of potential health problems so it might be worth talking with the breed club?


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

I have 4 cavs, had 3 more that are no longer with us  I love them so much but feel that my next breed (after my cavs have all gone-so not for a while yet hopefully) will be something else as I have watched 3 with heart problems gradually get worse and worse and feel I cant go through it again. My daughter has a cav x pug and although he is lovely and funny he is completely hyper!! I couldnt cope with him, so I will need to look at something else. I do sympathise with you though, it will take a lot to get a breed to compare with beautiful cavs!
Sorry for your recent loss, good age though. xx


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

I am a LONG time spaniel fan, with a penchant for Cockers and Cavaliers. Tibetan Spaniels are extremely rare here (Canada is almost as large as all of Europe and we have ~10 Tibbie litters born yearly).

I have lately (three months) had the privilege of keeping a gorgeous and still youthful Tibbie for a friend who will be in hospital a long time.

I have to say that I am smitten. He is just slightly less biddable than the Cavaliers that I have had experience with, but still has been smarter so easier to train and loves a game of fetch. This guy is even good off lead but you can't count on that with either breed. He is just as affectionate but not insistent on lap sitting (he sits at my feet or by my side). He is typical in that he is approachable for strangers - although aloof to them, unlike the Cavaliers who are flirts with the world, but that trait is neither here nor there to me.

Anyway, that is the direction that I will be looking from here on forward specifically with thought toward health issues, so I thought I'd mention my experience.

If would also consider a Cavalier cross from someone outcrossing for the breed . . . but anyone doing that currently is not announcing as they'd be quickly black-listed by the pure-blood brigade at the top and find it impossible to bring quality stock in. 

I find it odd that in some breeds this thinking is so entrenched, while in others, like the Tibetan Spaniel, we can have native stock (unknown pedigree) brought in with less fear-mongering.

A well selected mate from another breed with good heart health history would pose less threat to the health of the Cavalier breed than a well selected Cavalier mate, but fear mongers make it out that they would pose great risk. It is such nonsense.

CC


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

I think you need to take a rather more scientific approach to this.

There are a lot of people who go "OMG! A CROSSBREED, HOW AWFUL! NEVER, NEVER!" which is neither useful when considering a dog's health nor helpful to your situation. Equally there are the "CROSS-BREEDING SOLVES ALL HEALTH ISSUES!" brigade who are equally asinine.

I'd check the Cavalier website for a list of health problems associated with the breed. decide which ones I really didn't want and list them. A bit more research into that condition in dogs will give you an idea whether there is any testing for the problem in breeding stock and whether the condition is dominant, recessive or polygenetic.

If there are tests make sure the parents are tested and clear. If there are no tests it becomes a bit harder. If the condition is dominant, it's obvious. If it's recessive a cross-breed becomes a good look. Make sure the cross is to a breed *clear of that condition*. It's not just Cavs that have genetic horrors.

Now, check the cross for any horrors not in the cav. breed. Again make sure no recessive problems match.

Polygenetic problems are much harder to exclude. Again you're looking for a cross that does NOT have the problem.

With all the care in the world things can still go wrong. Spontaneous mutations happen, not often but they happen.

Never cross cross-breeds when you're using the cross to stop expression of a faulty recessive.

So if you're picking a cav cross; pick one with the cav. parent showing no dominant faults and recessives that are NOT present in the other parent. Also make sure the other parent has no dodgy dominants.

I think if you are careful with your cross you could end up with a very healthy little dog. Be VERY careful of the breeder. There are wonderful, ethical breeders of pedigrees and cross-breeds..........then there are the OTHERS!

Good luck.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

How sad that so many who have loved a breed for many years but now feel unable to have another because of the health issues. Surely the breeders/breed clubs need to take action now before cavaliers disappear simply because no one wants to own them anymore.

A work colleague has a cav x bichon, I know they have had a lot of issues with dodgy tum but that could be poor feeding he was on Bakers (thats what breeder had him on). 

IMO you need to do as much research into a cross as you would a pedigree, Simplistically if you have two pedigrees with health issues but of different breeds I would imagine by crossing them the result would be puppies with a selection of their parents health problems.


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## cavmad (Jan 27, 2009)

As my name says i love cavs but i cant justify getting another cav pup until the health problems are sorted which probable wont be in my dog owning time.Pups as young as 4month are now having symtoms of SM/CM so those poor dogs are going to have a shortern live in pain.I would be very careful about getting a x bred as these can still have the heart problems. I have a cav x that i was given because the rest of the litter had died they did a post mortom on the last dead pup and it had small deformed kidneys and something wrong with its heart. We dont really know who the dad was but the Shih Tzus lived in the next pen (i know it was from a BYB but i used to go and get the x breeders to foster until they found forever homes) he is 5yrs this sept and touch wood nothing wrong except a lack of brain he is naughty stubbon but very loving he has a long coat which i clip off twice a year so i can cope









Monty


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

cavmad said:


> As my name says i love cavs but i cant justify getting another cav pup until the health problems are sorted which probable wont be in my dog owning time.Pups as young as 4month are now having symtoms of SM/CM so those poor dogs are going to have a shortern live in pain.I would be very careful about getting a x bred as these can still have the heart problems. I have a cav x that i was given because the rest of the litter had died they did a post mortom on the last dead pup and it had small deformed kidneys and something wrong with its heart. We dont really know who the dad was but the Shih Tzus lived in the next pen (i know it was from a BYB but i used to go and get the x breeders to foster until they found forever homes) he is 5yrs this sept and touch wood nothing wrong except a lack of brain he is naughty stubbon but very loving he has a long coat which i clip off twice a year so i can cope
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My he is super gorgeous


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