# Maybe a familiar story but...



## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

As the title says this maybe a familair story to many of you, but its new to me. When i was younger (long time ago now) we allways had cats as pets and i was brought up with allways at least one and usually more cats in the house. Well, recent,y my wife and i decided to get a kitten and we started looking around, we ventually got a persian/maine coon mixed male kitten off a lady in Bradford. He was allways a bit thin, but the vet didnt seem overly worried when he had his innoculations. Well a few days ago he was looking not so well and i thpugh he had worms, he got worse and we took him to the vets. The next day he died of what the vet said was probably a virus caught off his mother, im asuming it was feline leukemia although the vet didnt test to see what it was. Well the cat was bough off a cat 'breeder' who at the time was selling 8 kittens, presumably all of which would be diseased. 

Well, oliver as he was called was honestly the nicest cat i have ever lived with, not an ounce of aggresion and liked nothing more than sitting on or next to his humans and was absoultely 100% trusting of us, he never ran away when we picked him up and never ever got grumpy or grouchy and loved following us all round the house, just a lovely cat all round and he is well missed. 

What i am disgusted at is that a 'breeder' can be breeding of diseased cats. What i would like to know is who, if anybody, this can be reported to?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> As the title says this maybe a familair story to many of you, but its new to me. When i was younger (long time ago now) we allways had cats as pets and i was brought up with allways at least one and usually more cats in the house. Well, recent,y my wife and i decided to get a kitten and we started looking around, we ventually got a persian/maine coon mixed male kitten off a lady in Bradford. He was allways a bit thin, but the vet didnt seem overly worried when he had his innoculations. Well a few days ago he was looking not so well and i thpugh he had worms, he got worse and we took him to the vets. The next day he died of what the vet said was probably a virus caught off his mother, im asuming it was feline leukemia although the vet didnt test to see what it was. Well the cat was bough off a cat 'breeder' who at the time was selling 8 kittens, presumably all of which would be diseased.
> 
> Well, oliver as he was called was honestly the nicest cat i have ever lived with, not an ounce of aggresion and liked nothing more than sitting on or next to his humans and was absoultely 100% trusting of us, he never ran away when we picked him up and never ever got grumpy or grouchy and loved following us all round the house, just a lovely cat all round and he is well missed.
> 
> What i am disgusted at is that a 'breeder' can be breeding of diseased cats. What i would like to know is who, if anybody, this can be reported to?


you could try the rspca.... but....... don't hold your breath.

I know you call this person a "breeder" but really they are not a proper breeder as the kitten you bought was a cross, which means they don't belong to any proper registration body.... so you can't expect these type of breeders to uphold any kind of standards. In fact I hate even calling them breeders, they are nothing more than people who put 2 fertile cats together and hope to sell the kittens as soon as they can for as much money as they can.


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## Pardalis (Jan 15, 2011)

MarkA said:


> As the title says this maybe a familair story to many of you, but its new to me. When i was younger (long time ago now) we allways had cats as pets and i was brought up with allways at least one and usually more cats in the house. Well, recent,y my wife and i decided to get a kitten and we started looking around, we ventually got a persian/maine coon mixed male kitten off a lady in Bradford. He was allways a bit thin, but the vet didnt seem overly worried when he had his innoculations. Well a few days ago he was looking not so well and i thpugh he had worms, he got worse and we took him to the vets. The next day he died of what the vet said was probably a virus caught off his mother, im asuming it was feline leukemia although the vet didnt test to see what it was. Well the cat was bough off a cat 'breeder' who at the time was selling 8 kittens, presumably all of which would be diseased.
> 
> Well, oliver as he was called was honestly the nicest cat i have ever lived with, not an ounce of aggresion and liked nothing more than sitting on or next to his humans and was absoultely 100% trusting of us, he never ran away when we picked him up and never ever got grumpy or grouchy and loved following us all round the house, just a lovely cat all round and he is well missed.
> 
> What i am disgusted at is that a 'breeder' can be breeding of diseased cats. What i would like to know is who, if anybody, this can be reported to?


Really sorry that you lost your kitten. He sounds like he was a darling and of course it's not his fault that someone who didn't really care brought him up.

I would go back to the breeder - I have no idea whether the law would bring you any recourse. I would try anyway. Hope you find a new kitty

P


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Pardalis said:


> Really sorry that you lost your kitten. He sounds like he was a darling and of course it's not his fault that someone who didn't really care brought him up.
> 
> I would go back to the breeder - I have no idea whether the law would bring you any recourse. I would try anyway. Hope you find a new kitty
> 
> P


I obviously don't know MarkA's whole story.... but generally speaking this kind of all too common story could be avoided completely if only kitten buyers would do their homework BEFORE they handed over money for kittens. Often ALL the warning signs are there if people woulld just learn beforehand what to look for and what to avoid. There are backyardbreeders and proper responsible ethical breeders and the gap between the two types is massive. If the kitten buying public just learned this, and stopped buying from dodgy backyardbreeders then the hideous tales like MarkA's wouldn't be half as common as they are.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Actually i think breeders should be licensed and all breeding cats certified disease free in advance by a vet as a prerequisite of obtaining and keeping a breeding license. That way it is actually feasible for a 'once in a lifetime' kitten buyer to have some degree of trust in the breeder. 

It seems unreasonable to expect a one off buyer to spot a dodgy breeder, even if the signs are blatantly obvious to more experienced people. In fact we visited what we now know by reputation is a much more responsible breeder and the setup was really very similar.

I'm not personally a massive fan of many pure cat breeds as i regard them as genetically weak and in some cases disfigured by inbreeding, so the necessity of having show winners and full pedigrees is not for me a priority. Although, In fact our new kitten is a pedigree, as my wife wanted, likely complete with some of the weaknesses expected of the breed.

I think some simple licensing laws should be the way to go.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> I think some simple licensing laws should be the way to go.


oh it sure would definitely help a lot ... but it's simply not about to happen amytime soon (anytime in my lifetime I would hazard a bet at).

The UK simply isn't that far forward (or that interested in) legislation for cats.

I don't know if it is unreasonable (in this day and age of savvy consumers) to expect prospective owners to do some simple homework before purchasing a kitten. OK I know about kittens, but I know jackshit about cars, so when I buy a 2nd hand car, I either take a car-knowledgeable friend along, or I pay for a check & a report from a reputable garage.

I can understand you might prefer cross breeds to pure peds but getting a cross breed does not mean you dont get the genetic problems that go with *both* breeds!! And it also does mean that you are *far* more likely to be dealing with unscrupulous breeders.

IMO I can safely buy either a pedigree Persian or a pedigree Maine Coon and know with as much certainty as medical science allows at this moment that they are free from genetic problems.

I can never do this with a cross breed as I have NEVER met a single breeder (backyard breeder) of crosses who do all the appropriate health testing. So I think you would be more likely, on many fronts, to encounter a problem with a cross of these two breeds than you would be with either a good MC or a good Persian from reputable breeders.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

oh and another thing you would have to consider with a licensing system...

*how do we define breeders?*

what if my 6 month old unneutered moggy accidentally gets out, gets pregnant and has litter of kittens, am I a breeder or not?

and also don't forget... there are already registration bodies in the UK like GCCF and TICA, and they do hold their members to some kind of standards. But so many people still go to backyardbreeders to buy, mainly because less questions are asked, less demands or restrictions are placed on buyers, and prices are cheaper.

IMO No amount of forced licensing systems will remove backyardbreeders as long as Joe Public still hands over cash to dodgy byb breeders. Where there is a market, and where money can be earned, the dodgy or backyard or unlicensed breeders (if that happened) would still churn out kittens.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

MarkA said:


> *Actually i think breeders should be licensed and all breeding cats certified disease free in advance by a vet as a prerequisite of obtaining and keeping a breeding license. That way it is actually feasible for a 'once in a lifetime' kitten buyer to have some degree of trust in the breeder. *
> 
> *
> It seems unreasonable to expect a one off buyer to spot a dodgy breeder, even if the signs are blatantly obvious to more experienced people.* In fact we visited what we now know by reputation is a much more responsible breeder and the setup was really very similar.
> ...


Reputable breeders are registered with governing body. BYB/moggie 'breeders' are not, and it was your choice to purchase a kitten from such a breeder  Whilst it is very sad your kitten died, I can't help thinking what more did you expect? You buy from a back yard breeder, unvacc'd kitten, I'm kind of bewildered about what your expectations are?

I wasn't an experienced 'buyer' when I purchased my first kitten (pedigree, I don't do backyard breeders), yet I did my research into the breed and the breeders first.

I simply cannot see how licensing can apply to people who breed moggies  Who can police this??


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

What you don't say, Mark, is how long you had had the kitten when it died - obviously you had it long enough to have the vaccinations, that has to be at least three weeks. That seriously limits the number of possibilities as far as a virus is concerned. It's a pity you didn't ask the vet which virus it was, though I would imaginbe it would be impossible to say for sure without testing anyway.

For any chance of any comeback, you'd need to be able to prove to the satisfaction of a County Court that the cat acquired this virus at the breeders place, that's your difficulty.

As for the rest, I agree with the others who have posted so far. It is true that moggies have hybrid vigour but this does not at all mean that any moggy you could buy is more healthy than any pedigree. When you start dealing with the sort of breeders who are deliberately producing "designer crossbreeds" as a cash crop, you are getting into dangerous territory.

Liz


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

> Actually i think breeders should be licensed and all breeding cats certified disease free in advance by a vet as a prerequisite of obtaining and keeping a breeding license.


Hi Mark,

I am sorry for your loss, the loss of any Pet is not easy.

There are many Reputable breeders and Rescue centres who like you would welcome a licensed approach to breeding, the trouble is it would be incredibly hard to Police and enforce and it would be incredibly expensive to run. which leaves the question where do the costs for this come from the Tax Payer, those that do not have Pets might be opposed to this, especially with Tax rising.

The other alternative would be to charge for licenses, but many feel this would just encourage more back yard breeding pratices.And it would be unlikely to raise enough to run such a practice, which would leave it relying on charitable donations.

However you have a choice, and people like you can make the change, either go to a reputable breeder, who follows standards outlined by a Governing body, has the Kittens health checked by a Vet prior to going to their new homes and has their Kittens Vaccinated,whos Breeding Cats are screened for genetic faults and disease.
Or go to a Rescue Centre for one of the many Healthy Rescue Cats and Kittens they have in their Care.

If people like yourself say no I am not going to buy a kitten that is so young, not vaccinated,not health checked, then this would force the Bad breeders to do one of two things give up, or take breeding a little more serious and start doing health checks etc, as if they didnt they would not sell their kittens.

Hopefully if you decide to purchase another after you have got over this loss, you will make the change, tell as many people as you can of your bad experience, and hopefully a percentage of them will take it on board, and not buy from Back yard breeders:thumbup::thumbup:


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

lizward said:


> What you don't say, Mark, is how long you had had the kitten when it died - obviously you had it long enough to have the vaccinations, that has to be at least three weeks. That seriously limits the number of possibilities as far as a virus is concerned. It's a pity you didn't ask the vet which virus it was, though I would imaginbe it would be impossible to say for sure without testing anyway.
> 
> For any chance of any comeback, you'd need to be able to prove to the satisfaction of a County Court that the cat acquired this virus at the breeders place, that's your difficulty.
> 
> ...


Liz,

The kitten was vaccinated, but thats irrelevant in this case as the virus was most likely passed directly from the mother cat, which was presumably acting as a carrier, so vaccinations would be useless in any case.

What we should have insisted on was a check for feline aids and leukemia.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> Reputable breeders are registered with governing body. BYB/moggie 'breeders' are not, and it was your choice to purchase a kitten from such a breeder  Whilst it is very sad your kitten died, I can't help thinking what more did you expect? You buy from a back yard breeder, unvacc'd kitten, I'm kind of bewildered about what your expectations are?
> 
> I wasn't an experienced 'buyer' when I purchased my first kitten (pedigree, I don't do backyard breeders), yet I did my research into the breed and the breeders first.
> 
> I simply cannot see how licensing can apply to people who breed moggies  Who can police this??


The breeder we bought off was essentially selling pedigree persians, we saw all of the cats. The cross we bought was a one off. It was vaccinated.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> Liz,
> 
> The kitten was vaccinated, but thats irrelevant in this case as *the virus was most likely passed directly from the mother cat*, which was presumably acting as a carrier, so vaccinations would be useless in any case.
> 
> What we should have insisted on was a check for feline aids and leukemia.


but you don't actually _*know*_ that, and I think that's what Liz was saying. You don't know what killed him, let alone how he contracted that virus (if it even was a virus). If he had been post mortemed or tested prior to death and the actual virus had been determined, then one can begin to speculate where and how it was picked up. But I don't see how you can just assume it was something he picked up from his mother. I know you are saying that because your vet said it to you... but without tests, surely it's all specualtion.

I think we realised the kitten was vaccinated, I think the confusion arose with: was the kitten vaccinated after you brought him home or did he have both sets of vaccs at the "breeders" home?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> The breeder we bought off was essentially selling pedigree persians, we saw all of the cats. The cross we bought was a one off. It was vaccinated.


Many backyard breeders of fashionable cross breeds say this.... truth is.... no reputable breeder would work this way. Which is not to say that every breeder who sells registered kittens is ethical, no, not by a long shot - which is why everyone is saying "home work" and research prior to buying is needed. I just wouldn't take their word for it that this was a one off litter. I had a look on google last night and saw Persian/Maine Coon crosses were going for £385-£400 in the Bradford area.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2011)

Hello, I am sorry for your loss and your bad experiance. 

I cant suggest anything really other than if their other cats are GCCF registered giving them a ring and letting them know as it may prevent any more kittens being sold with this illness. (Though I am not sure how the Gccf works).

Though its the last thing you think of at the time a full examination of the kittens body should have really been done that way you have proof that the breeder was at fault.

When looking for a healthy kitten always go for kittens from health tested parents (make sure you see the results) and from fully GCCF registered breeders. Accidents happen but most good breeders will ensure that doesnt happen or if it does treat it with the same pride as if it was a fully breed litter.

I find google is a useful tool when you have a breeders name, pop it in google and see what it throws up.

Again I am sorry for your loss.


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

so sorry to hear about your new baby. how old was he and how long had you had him?
i would have thought they only way you were probably going to find out what had happened was to have had a pm. that way you may have something go take back to the breeder with.
i wouldnt hold your breath with regards to the rspca though.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MarkA said:


> Liz,
> 
> The kitten was vaccinated, but thats irrelevant in this case as the virus was most likely passed directly from the mother cat, which was presumably acting as a carrier, so vaccinations would be useless in any case.
> 
> What we should have insisted on was a check for feline aids and leukemia.


Yes, but I was wondering about the incubation period. Your first post said the vet wasn't worried when the kitten had its vaccinations - I assumed this meant you took him for his vaccinations, but now you seem to be saying that the breeder did that. So how long did you have him before he became ill?

What did your vet say the virus was and what tests were done?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> I had a look on google last night and saw Persian/Maine Coon crosses were going for £385-£400 in the Bradford area.


I always find myself wondering who on earth pays these prices for cross breeds. Still, if that's what the breeder is getting, the odds of it being a one-off are reduced somewhat, I would think. Could be a nice little money-spinner.

Liz


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

MarkA said:


> The breeder we bought off was essentially selling pedigree persians, we saw all of the cats. The cross we bought was a one off. It was vaccinated.


That's like being able to buy a pair of Clarks shoes from the Christian Louboutin shop 

Does a reputable 'breeder' sell crosses


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Tje said:


> Many backyard breeders of fashionable cross breeds say this.... truth is.... no reputable breeder would work this way. Which is not to say that every breeder who sells registered kittens is ethical, no, not by a long shot - which is why everyone is saying "home work" and research prior to buying is needed. I just wouldn't take their word for it that this was a one off litter. I had a look on google last night and saw Persian/Maine Coon crosses were going for £385-£400 in the Bradford area.


my god you can get aped for that!? i wonder if they were even pedigree themselves, i bet they werent pkd/hcm tested either 



dougal22 said:


> That's like being able to buy a pair of Clarks shoes from the Christian Louboutin shop
> 
> Does a reputable 'breeder' sell crosses


if its part of a out cross program yes they do, and they are regged aswell health tested vacs when leaving etc.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> my god you can get aped for that!? i wonder if they were even pedigree themselves, i bet they werent pkd/hcm tested either
> 
> *if its part of a out cross program yes they do, and they are regged aswell health tested vacs when leaving etc.*




But does this sounds like an outcross programme


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

dougal22 said:


> [/B]
> 
> But does this sounds like an outcross programme


no lol, i was just saying that some breeders so have outcrosses


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

dougal22 said:


> But does this sounds like an outcross programme


no, it sounds more like someone who has made a massive mistake by buying impulsively while poorly informed, and is now looking to place the blame elsewhere. And of course this "breeder" is wrong, that goes without saying, but it's as par for the course as buying a 2nd hand car from Dellboy and being surprised when it breaks down just outside the forecourt.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

I'm sorry you think this about placing blame rather than trying to do something about the situation, however little. If all the responsible cat folks did something about it, then something could be done about the situation. As you say, the responsible breeders are allready doing the testing so it wouldnt involve more expense for them.

If the BVA were on board they could easily help publicise a voluntary registration scheme to buy from accredited breeders. 

Where'as as at the moment you have to look in the 'locked draw in the basement with a sign on it saying beware of the leopard' before you find anything usefull.

I came on here to see if there was anything that could be done about the general situation but mostly found apathy and finger wagging, mixed in with a few sensible replies (thanks for those).

If you think i'm looking for someone to blame, then that says more about your mentality than it does mine!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

MarkA said:


> I'm sorry you think this about placing blame rather than trying to do something about the situation, however little. If all the responsible cat folks did something about it, then something could be done about the situation. As you say, the responsible breeders are allready doing the testing so it wouldnt involve more expense for them.
> 
> If the BVA were on board they could easily help publicise a voluntary registration scheme to buy from accredited breeders.
> 
> ...


1. no GOOD breeder sells a kitten at 8weeks.
2. why buy a kitten at 8weeks? from someone who calls themselves a 'breeder'? 
3. did you have post mortem done to see how the kitten died?

isnt the BVA for dogs? Tell you what alot of shocking breeders are 'accredited' dog breeders, i wouldnt join the scheme unless they sorted it out.


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

MarkA said:


> I'm sorry you think this about placing blame rather than trying to do something about the situation, however little. If all the responsible cat folks did something about it, then something could be done about the situation. As you say, the responsible breeders are allready doing the testing so it wouldnt involve more expense for them.
> 
> If the BVA were on board they could easily help publicise a voluntary registration scheme to buy from accredited breeders.
> 
> Where'as as at the moment you have to look in the 'locked draw in the basement with a sign on it saying beware of the leopard' before you find anything usefull.


Hi Marc,
I'm sorry to hear about your kitten. I can understand how upsetting that would have been.

However, I don't think the BVA would willingly publicise the breeding of non-pedigree cats, whether or not the breeders are accredited. Their focus is on minimising moggie breeding, particularly in light of the UK rescue situation.

There are already organisations for accredited breeders (including Tica and the GCCF) which the average cat buyer can easily access via google. These organisations have codes of conduct and members can be suspended/fined if the codes are not followed.

With regards to the breeder of your kitten, I'm afraid there is probably nothing you can do without evidence of a post mortem. It's your word against theirs. Sorry


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> If all the responsible cat folks did something about it, then something could be done about the situation. As you say, the responsible breeders are allready doing the testing so it wouldnt involve more expense for them.


Responsible breeders are ALREADY doing something about it, you didn't buy from a responsible breeder though, you bought from a Dellboy of the cat world.



MarkA said:


> If the BVA were on board they could easily help publicise a voluntary registration scheme to buy from accredited breeders.


It's already been explained to you that there are already registration bodies. As long as people like you want to buy fashionable cross breeds and hand over good money for those crosses, bad breeding practices will remain.



MarkA said:


> Where as at the moment you have to look in the 'locked draw in the basement with a sign on it saying beware of the leopard' before you find anything usefull.


No you don't. It's not anymore difficult for novice cat buyer to buy a decent cat than it is for me to buy a 2nd hand car. It's not THAT difficult to find a good breeder and a decent kitten, a post on this forum BEFORE purchase and a handful of replies would have armed you with more than enough knowledge to have enabled you to make a far more informed purchase.



MarkA said:


> I came on here to see if there was anything that could be done about the general situation but mostly found apathy and finger wagging, mixed in with a few sensible replies (thanks for those).


It's hard to give sensible replies to someone who won't accept the reality of the situation and their role in it. You just want us to agree with you, you want us to back this harebrained BVA scheme you have thought up, you want us to accept you are a total innocent in this situation. You don't want to here realistic points of view.



MarkA said:


> If you think i'm looking for someone to blame, then that says more about your mentality than it does mine!


You're the one with the problem, and you're the one with the reluctance to accept your own role in it, not me. If I got to my local market and I buy a "top brand designer" perfume for the knockdown price of 15 quid or I got to dellboy and buy a "one careful old lady owner" second hand Volkswagen Polo.... I can either accept the reality of the situation and be a more aware consumer in the future, or I can bemoan bootleg perfume sellers and dodgy secondhand car salesmen on internet forums. All the moaning in the world is not going to change the situation. There are dodgy sellers of everything, when we buy from them, we take our chances. You bought from one and suffered the consequences.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> 1. no GOOD breeder sells a kitten at 8weeks.
> 2. why buy a kitten at 8weeks? from someone who calls themselves a 'breeder'?
> 3. did you have post mortem done to see how the kitten died?
> 
> isnt the BVA for dogs? Tell you what alot of shocking breeders are 'accredited' dog breeders, i wouldnt join the scheme unless they sorted it out.


Who mentioned 8 weeks?


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Dozymoo said:


> Hi Marc,
> I'm sorry to hear about your kitten. I can understand how upsetting that would have been.
> 
> However, I don't think the BVA would willingly publicise the breeding of non-pedigree cats, whether or not the breeders are accredited. Their focus is on minimising moggie breeding, particularly in light of the UK rescue situation.
> ...


Im not saying they should publicise the breeding of non- pedigree cats. But an independant registry of approved breeders, regardless of type, would surely be a positive? Im not really interested in pursuing this person to get the money back, ive written that off and its not cost effective to spend time trying to reclaim it.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> Responsible breeders are ALREADY doing something about it, you didn't buy from a responsible breeder though, you bought from a Dellboy of the cat world.
> 
> It's already been explained to you that there are already registration bodies. As long as people like you want to buy fashionable cross breeds and hand over good money for those crosses, bad breeding practices will remain.
> 
> ...


What a load of arrogant nonsense. I dont have a problem recognising that buying from this breeder was a bad decision, it happens, I got over that and moved on, you clearly havent. Rather thanH moaning im trying to find out what is being done in this area. Clearly what you doing, which appears to be nothing, isn't working and your happy to be complacent about it.

I dont think a registration scheme should in the hands of a cat club.

Im actively involved in parrot conservation and breeding, and similar issues arise their which is why is partly why i'm interested in what is being done and can be done here.

If you dont like my scheme suggest a better one and lets have an adult discussion about it.

It simply isnt working to say 'i'm a good breeder and everyone should do their homework and buy off me', which seems to be your attitude.

Im actually quite appalled at the apathy, thats not moaning, its genuine surprise given the much more constructive discussions that go on in other areas of conservation i'm involved with.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> Clearly what you doing, which appears to be nothing, isn't working and your happy to be complacent about it.


Ohhhh I do a lot for animal welfare sweetie, more than most!



MarkA said:


> I dont think a registration scheme should in the hands of a cat club.


ok, but come up with a semi-workable and half-sensible alternative. I can't see any (responsible) body in the cat world jumping to sign up to any scheme that would legitimise in any way the breeding of moggie crosses.



MarkA said:


> If you dont like my scheme suggest a better one and lets have an adult discussion about it.


lol, come up with a scheme that isn't harebrained and I will happily discuss it.



MarkA said:


> It simply isnt working to say 'i'm a good breeder and everyone should do their homework and buy off me', which seems to be your attitude.


I'm *not* a breeder and never have been. I *am* an aware consumer.



MarkA said:


> Im actually quite appalled at the apathy, thsts not moaning, its genuine surprise given the much more constructive discussions that go on in other areas of conservation i'm involved with.


maybe it has to do with the fact that you are not coming up with anything constructive or sensible. You are the one who doesn't want a pedigree, you are the one who wants to legitimise irresponsible moggy cross breeding, do you want me to be enthusiastic about that? seriously?


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

MarkA said:


> What i am disgusted at is that a 'breeder' can be breeding of diseased cats. What i would like to know is who, if anybody, this can be reported to?





MarkA said:


> What a load of arrogant nonsense. I dont have a problem recognising that buying from this breeder was a bad decision, it happens, I got over that and moved on.


Do not think ya have moved on going by your first post


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> Ohhhh I do a lot for animal welfare sweetie, more than most!
> 
> ok, but come up with a semi-workable and half-sensible alternative. I can't see any (responsible) body in the cat world jumping to sign up to any scheme that would legitimise in any way the breeding of moggie crosses.
> 
> ...


Why dont you suggest a scheme instead of sniping, clearly your the expert and if you cant think of a good scheme then who can?

Now your just putting words in my mouth, i never said i didnt want a pedigree or that we should legitimise irresponsible moggy cross breeding.

Personally, i dont see anything wrong with responsible cross breeding. Equally I think some pedigree breeding is irresponsible, especially when it involves back crossing mothers with sons and fathers with daughters, which is basically what you have to do to win shows with certain breeds.

I agree most pedigree registered breeders are behaving responsibly, but that needs to be applied in some way to all breeders.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

MarkA said:


> As the title says this maybe a familair story to many of you, but its new to me. When i was younger (long time ago now) we allways had cats as pets and i was brought up with allways at least one and usually more cats in the house. Well, recent,y my wife and i decided to get a kitten and we started looking around, we ventually got a persian/maine coon mixed male kitten off a lady in Bradford. He was allways a bit thin, but the vet didnt seem overly worried when he had his innoculations. Well a few days ago he was looking not so well and i thpugh he had worms, he got worse and we took him to the vets. The next day he died of what the vet said was probably a virus caught off his mother, im asuming it was feline leukemia although the vet didnt test to see what it was. Well the cat was bough off a cat 'breeder' who at the time was selling 8 kittens, presumably all of which would be diseased.
> 
> Well, oliver as he was called was honestly the nicest cat i have ever lived with, not an ounce of aggresion and liked nothing more than sitting on or next to his humans and was absoultely 100% trusting of us, he never ran away when we picked him up and never ever got grumpy or grouchy and loved following us all round the house, just a lovely cat all round and he is well missed.
> 
> What i am disgusted at is that a 'breeder' can be breeding of diseased cats. What i would like to know is who, if anybody, this can be reported to?


did you have a post mortem done to see why he died, they cost around £40-50 to do.

no good breeder breeds a maine coon to a persian, was the persian PKD negative? and was the maine coon HCM negative? if not he could have died of either of those thinsg aswell.

this person is NOT a 'breeder' they are a person who had 2 cats who made/let them mate.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

MarkA said:


> Personally, *i dont see anything wrong with* *responsible cross breeding.* Equally I think some pedigree breeding is irresponsible, especially when it involves back crossing mothers with sons and fathers with daughters, which is basically what you have to do to win shows with certain breeds.
> 
> .


please show me a responsible cross breeder? most are like the women you bought from.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

There are responsible cross-breeders, they are the ones using crosses to devlop a new breed. The Asian group was developed in this way.

Mark, I wish you would answer the questions about the virus and the vaccinations.

Liz


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lizward said:


> There are responsible cross-breeders, they are the ones using crosses to devlop a new breed. The Asian group was developed in this way.
> 
> Mark, I wish you would answer the questions about the virus and the vaccinations.
> 
> Liz


yes but thats a reason and they are health tested and going torwards a actual Aim... not just crossing 2 cat stogether like the OP bought


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I wouldn't be happy with the vet saying "probably a virus passed on from the mother" tbh. I wouldn't rest until I had a post-mortem or testing done. Armed with that information, one can at least try to make a proper case against the "breeder".


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> Why dont you suggest a scheme instead of sniping, clearly your the expert and if you cant think of a good scheme then who can?


I am not sniping. I am merely disagreeing with you. I am not an expert. I am just a fan of logic and of rational thought processes. Both of which are missing from your arguement.

And why do *I* have to suggest a scheme? Youre the one who wants the scheme!!

Why cant I just stick by what I said in the beginning, buying from good GCCF or TICA registered breeders, doing homework in advance of purchase so buyers know what to avoid and what to look for? It works for countless people. And if people dont want to do all the homework in advance (I certainly dont want to learn how an engine works just so I can buy a reliable second hand car) then ask a cat-savvy friend/family member/colleague/acquaintance to help you. Or come on to a forum like this and ask what one should look for in an ethical and responsible breeder PRIOR to buying a kitten.



MarkA said:


> Now your just putting words in my mouth, i never said i didnt want a pedigree or that we should legitimise irresponsible moggy cross breeding


well you said this 


MarkA said:


> I'm not personally a massive fan of many pure cat breeds as i regard them as genetically weak and in some cases disfigured by inbreeding


That didnt sound to me like you were a fan of pedigrees. Many of us went on to explain the holes in your logic, thinking that a Maine Coon/Persian cross would be healthier. But you somehow managed to avoid addressing those points, in much the same way you have avoided addressing the points that its pure speculation this kitten died from a virus she caught from her mother. And you havent even answered the questions about how long you had the kitten and when the vaccs were done.



MarkA said:


> Personally, i dont see anything wrong with responsible cross breeding.


neither do I, in theory. But the key word is *responsible*. The problem arises because no one (or hardly anyone) ever breeds the type of cross breed you bought in a responsible fashion. The same is true of mating two moggies. I have zero issues with this as long as all the standards are upheld, and they never are. People who breed moggies (or for that matter Persian/Main Coon crosses) basically just chuck a fertile male and fertile female together, thats not responsible breeding. The only responsible breeding of crosses are done by breeders in outcross programs. Not just a breeder chuckin two cats together to geta fashionable mix.



MarkA said:


> Equally I think some pedigree breeding is irresponsible, especially when it involves back crossing mothers with sons and fathers with daughters, which is basically what you have to do to win shows with certain breeds.


Oh, do please elaborate, I would love to learn more about this. I dont show or breed, have never shown. I do like to visit shows though!



MarkA said:


> I agree most pedigree registered breeders are behaving responsibly, but that needs to be applied in some way to all breeders.


yes but how? You wont even answer the most simple questions people have posed. Like define a breeder? Who is going to police this scheme? Where is the money coming for this scheme.? And whatever scheme was introduced how are you going to stop backyard breeders just doing their own thing and sticking their middle finger up to rules and regulations?

Having a discussion like this is as pointless as saying people who steel cars should have their hands chopped off, or people who are cruel to animals should face a firing squad. It might make us feel better to talk this way, but it is never going to happen. We can discuss this, sure by all means, but we have to stay within the realms of reality.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

koekemakranka said:


> I wouldn't be happy with the vet saying "probably a virus passed on from the mother" tbh. I wouldn't rest until I had a post-mortem or testing done. Armed with that information, one can at least try to make a proper case against the "breeder".


not just you, no court or official governing body or RSPCA type of body could or would (or even should) ever take action based on something as flimsly as "it was probably a virus passed down from the mother".


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA, would this by any chance happen to be your Oliver? Also Bradford, also Maine Coon/Persian cross, and of course the kitten's name is the same? Just wondering!

_*Persian X Maine Coon* Pedigree (*Oliver*) avail for rehoming. 
£400 in Bradford 
Cost: £ 400 no offers
Location: *Bradford*( TAKE ME HOME )

Adorable Oliver is avail for rehoming Stunning Choc & Black Boy very pretty and fluffy. Will have very long hair when older.

Full Pedigree Main Coon X Persian, mum silver shaded Persian, dad Choc Persian. Make Beautiful Cats.

Both can be viewed. PKD Neg, Excellent pedigree. Dad Papers, mum no papers. He will not be reg. He is 8wks old, ready to go.

He is very fluffy and will need lots of grooming in his life time.

He is a proper doll, very fluffy, and already little character. He will leave with 4wks insurance kitten pack veted with vet receipt, copy of generation.

Taking a non refundable deposit of £100 to secure, can reserve till xmas. Please Enquire, no time wasters.

(Oliver Choc & Black) Beautiful Teddybear. Must go to indoor pet home only._


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

koekemakranka said:


> I wouldn't be happy with the vet saying "probably a virus passed on from the mother" tbh. I wouldn't rest until I had a post-mortem or testing done. Armed with that information, one can at least try to make a proper case against the "breeder".


Completely agree. We live and learn.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Tje said:


> MarkA, would this by any chance happen to be your Oliver? Also Bradford, also Maine Coon/Persian cross, and of course the kitten's name is the same? Just wondering!
> 
> _*Persian X Maine Coon* Pedigree (*Oliver*) avail for rehoming.
> £400 in Bradford
> ...


OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!! go miss marples!! think this thread has turned a corner!!!

is it just me or do the bits in bold make no sense?? his parents are both persian but his a maine coon cross persian?? of course he isnt regged his a moggie!!!

£400????????????? thats MORE than i ask for my pedigree health tested kittens!!!



MarkA said:


> Completely agree. We live and learn.


for god sake am i invisable???????????? DID YOU HAVE A POST MORTEM TO SEE HOW THE KITTEN DIED???


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> is it just me or do the bits in bold make no sense??


mum silver shaded Persian, dad Chocolate Persian made zero sense to me either as where would the Maine Coon cross come into the mix??? Unless the moggy mother is one half MC???? NO idea. None if it makes much sense.

the health testing. Well a friend of a friend of mine was looking to buy a cross breed, and I had hammered on to them to make sure the kitten came from health tested parents they called me to assure me it did, that it had 5 different health tests, lol, and theyd left a deposit  but when I asked them if they saw actual vet proof of this testing, they admitted they hadnt, they had just taken the breeders word for it. When I called the breeder it turns out the mother was a young pedigree Persian (never been tested at all) and the father they had no idea what it was, lol. But since they were asking a good old price for the kittens, they just said they were tested to make it sound more legitmate. So few people buying cross breeds even ask about testing, let alone ask for proof of testing.

And if mum has no papers, well she is not a silver shaded Persian, or any Persian for that matter, she is at most a nice looking moggy.

But hey at £ 400 a kitten that would be a nice little money spinner (no vaccs or microchip or registration costs for the breeder either, not to mention getting rid of them 5 weeks earlier would drastically cut down on the breeders expenses)


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2011)

Tje said:


> MarkA, would this by any chance happen to be your Oliver? Also Bradford, also Maine Coon/Persian cross, and of course the kitten's name is the same? Just wondering!
> 
> _*Persian X Maine Coon* Pedigree (*Oliver*) avail for rehoming.
> £400 in Bradford
> ...


Oh dear.

£400 for a cross?

How can it be a cross if both parents are the same breed? Also mum wasnt registered which could mean that she herself was a cross of some sort or was not on the active register.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> MarkA, would this by any chance happen to be your Oliver? Also Bradford, also Maine Coon/Persian cross, and of course the kitten's name is the same? Just wondering!
> 
> _*Persian X Maine Coon* Pedigree (*Oliver*) avail for rehoming.
> £400 in Bradford
> ...


It's probably the same seller, i saw a current add yesterday, which has now been removed, with similar wording but different photo to our cat.

When I saw it yesterday my first thought was it must be a front for a kitten factory, as the photo was of a small kitten and the female couldnt have possibly had another litter in that time. But of course its all conjecture. Also of course when I tried to call, there was no answer.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I would ask what sort of idiot pays this sort of money for such a kitten, but in this thread it might sound rude.

I know some extremely reputable breeders who have full pedigree kittens with all vaccinations and all papers for less than this. But of course they don't have "persian" or "maine coon" in the title. 

Maybe next time I have an Asian litter (all vaccs, all papers, lucky if I get £250), I should advertise them as "Persian cross" - after all, 3/16 chinchilla is a persian cross isn't it 

Liz


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2011)

MarkA said:


> It's probably the same seller, i saw a current add yesterday, which has now been removed, with similar wording but different photo to our cat.
> 
> When I saw it yesterday my first thought was it must be a front for a kitten factory, as the photo was of a small kitten and the female couldnt have possibly had another litter in that time. But of course its all conjecture. Also of course when I tried to call, there was no answer.


Did the breeder give you a sales contract (if so that may have her number, email address, mobile number on it)

How far from you is the breeder? As if I had bought a cat and it died I would hot footing it over to their house to let them know and want to see PROOF of all health tests and what the mum and dad really are.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!! go miss marples!! think this thread has turned a corner!!!
> 
> is it just me or do the bits in bold make no sense?? his parents are both persian but his a maine coon cross persian?? of course he isnt regged his a moggie!!!
> 
> ...


Sorry, thought that was obvious from the 'live and learn'.

At the time post mortem wasnt the first thing on my mind the corpse was cremated the next day.

I realise you cant do anything with a balance of probabilities guess at the cause of death, but realistically i dont think it would get very far anyhow. More interested to avoid it in the future.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

[QUOTE

Oh, do please elaborate, I would love to learn more about this. I dont show or breed, have never shown. I do like to visit shows though! 
[/QUOTE]

Its common practice in all animal breeding to lock in certain characteristics and remove others, end result is less genetic variability, and more recessive characteristics ( good or bad) coming to forefront. Or put another way a reduction in the alleles. Hence you go from moggy to pedigree by reducing the genetic variability.

Is it case that western pedigrees inc. persians and maine coons are descended from the western european gene pool. Asian breeds have a more distant origin, is that right?


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> Did the breeder give you a sales contract (if so that may have her number, email address, mobile number on it)
> 
> How far from you is the breeder? As if I had bought a cat and it died I would hot footing it over to their house to let them know and want to see PROOF of all health tests and what the mum and dad really are.


It's about 170 miles round trip.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> I realise you cant do anything with a balance of probabilities guess at the cause of death,


The problem is though, its your personal interpretation of the probable cause of death being down to the mother passing a virus on to the kitten. We cant even hazard a guess as we dont know the basics like

	how old was the kitten when he died
	how long had he been with you
	when was he vaccinated
	did the kitten definitely have both sets of vaccinations 3 weeks apart, not just one set of vaacs
	did the breeder have other cats in her home (and around the kittens) or just the mother cat
	did the breeder have any other litters of kittens at the time you bought Oliver. Older or younger litters
	do you have other cats in your home
	how long after the kitten came to you before he become sick
were you present at this vet check when the vet said his lack of weight size wasnt an issue, or are you just taking the breeders word for this

I do THINK however that you are wrong (or certainly "not necessarily right" ) just to assume this was a virus passed down from the mother. It would aslo help if we knew what symptoms the kitten displayed prior to his death and how long it took from the onset of his symptoms to his death. BUT..... it's not going to change anything and anything anybody says, is always going to be pure guesswork. But.... knowing the possible causes of death in a more accurate fashion than you do right now... well it might help you avoid certain circumstances in the future.



MarkA said:


> More interested to avoid it in the future.


To avoid in the future:

	Buy from a reputable GCCF or TICA or FIFe registered breeder
	Ask on this forum how to spot a reputable breeder and what to definitely avoid
	Phone breed associations for the names of breeders in your area with kittens
	Do some research into the breed (or ask on this forum) to find out if there are health (or behavior) issues associated with that breed
	Insist on seeing proof of the health testing
	Insist on seeing both mother and father cat
	Check both of them have pleasant characters 
	Go to cat shows and get to know breeders, ask them questions, look at their cats, see their willingness (or lack there of) to interact with you
	Never buy a kitten from any breeder who is advertising the sale of kittens at 8 weeks old, even if they do end up keeping the kitten longer because it didnt sell on time, no decent breeder would ever rehome kittens at 8 weeks old as they are not even vaccinated at that age
	Do some basic checks on the kittens when you view them (clean eyes, clean bums, no swollen bellies, no fleas or ear mites, are they alert and playful and sociable enough, theyre not fearful or scared of people, they will interact with you in a normal kitten fashion

This just a rough list off the top of my head. If you want help on how to avoid this in the future then it is certainly a starting place, but there is nothing to beat personal recommendations and asking on here a question like I am looking for y-breed kitten, in the X area, can someone give me recommendations of good breeders well you could do a heck of a lot worse. There are some very good and knowledgable breeders on this foum who could go a long way to sterring you in the right direction, or at the very least assure you wont go in the wrong direction. Ask around in your friends/family/colleagues/aquaintances if anyone knows of good breeders within the breed you choose.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> Its *common practice in all animal breeding to lock in certain characteristics and remove others*, end result is less genetic variability, and more recessive characteristics ( good or bad) coming to forefront. Or put another way a reduction in the alleles. Hence you go from moggy to pedigree by reducing the genetic variability.
> 
> Is it case that western pedigrees inc. persians and maine coons are descended from the western european gene pool. Asian breeds have a more distant origin, is that right?


I have no idea if that is right... genetics aint my strong point.

I know the bit in bold... but it was more this bit that you said earlier that I was questioning



MarkA said:


> I think some pedigree breeding is irresponsible, especially when it involves back crossing mothers with sons and fathers with daughters, which is basically what you have to do to win shows with certain breeds


How common is it in the cat world to mate mother to son or father to daughter? I genuinely have NO knowledge of this. I am totally unaware of this close breeding. Could you elaborate on this bit specifically please. Does this mean all these "best in shows" and supreme and grand champions I see at every show are all the product of terribly close incest?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> How common is it in the cat world to mate mother to son or father to daughter?


Much less common these days. With GCCF, all progeny from such matings have to go on the non-active register unless there is a specific reason for it which has to be cleared by the GCCF executive as I recall. FIFe have a similar rule I believe.

I know you and I don't agree often Tje, but I too wish the OP would just answer some of the many questions he has been asked!

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I know you and I don't agree often Tje, but I too wish the OP would just answer some of the many questions he has been asked!
> 
> Liz


yep - if the poster is serious about learning from this and avoiding it happening in the future then he would do well to keep a very open mind and realise that vets sometimes just say what they think we want to hear at moments of great stress and sadness. Surely the more the OP knows about possible cause of death... well the better armed he is to ensure it doesn't happen again.

and thanks for explanation on the mother/son father/daughter breedings... I would have been horrified to think this was common place. And very relieving to hear that that the kittens born out of any such mating would have to be registered on the non-active.... however... that does beg the question... why do it at all?


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> The problem is though, its your personal interpretation of the probable cause of death being down to the mother passing a virus on to the kitten. We cant even hazard a guess as we dont know the basics like
> 
> 	how old was the kitten when he died
> 	how long had he been with you
> ...


The kitten was just over 4 months when he died and we got him at 13 weeks. He supposedly had his first vaccination before we got him but as a precaution the recommended starting again which we did.

The breeder had other cats around. At least two males that we saw and the 'mother'.

There were other kittens of a similar age.

We didn't have any other cats and Oliver never left our house (except to go to the vet)

Yes, I was present when the kitten was weighed and the vet said his weight was within normal boundaries.

He got noticeably sick the week before he died.

The vets opinion was it was unlikely to be a developmental disease (I understand PkD is normally a late developing disease for example) and that 'most likely' it was a viral infection from the mother cat. That also seems most likely to me as I understand viral transmission through sharing drinking bowls etc, although possible, is uncommon. Presumably it's most likely passed before birth or during birth while there is blood around? The vet seemed to think all the cats in the litter would have a strong chance of being infected.

The symptoms were enlarged stomach, anaemia, slightly raised temperature, cant remember if she said the white blood cell count was elevated or not.

Although he had grown a bit his weight had remained the same, which meant he got very thin.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

im totally lost on in thread now with the op answers ut: ive no idea what/why/who/where he is trying to say? or why the thread was created? :crazy:


r.e. the mom/son/daughter matings are not common at all anymore, I think you cant reg them anymore can you? 

reffering to the 'lock in' a certain 'trait' it can also 'lock in' the undesired traits aswell, so its only really done by experieinced breeders, and i dont know if they do it anymore? some might do.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> and thanks for explanation on the mother/son father/daughter breedings... I would have been horrified to think this was common place. And very relieving to hear that that the kittens born out of any such mating would have to be registered on the non-active.... however... that does beg the question... why do it at all?


It's generally done to increase the chances of getting a particular feature. E.g. Son looks like Mother, interbreed them and there's a much higher chance the offspring will look like both of them, effectively it reduces the number of alleles and possible permutations in the mix, and therefore more likely that the offspring will conform to a Breed standard.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

MarkA said:


> T
> The vets opinion was it was unlikely to be a developmental disease (I understand PkD is normally a late developing disease for example) and that 'most likely' it was a viral infection from the mother cat. That also seems most likely to me as I understand viral transmission through sharing drinking bowls etc, although possible, is uncommon. Presumably it's most likely passed before birth or during birth while there is blood around? The vet seemed to think all the cats in the litter would have a strong chance of being infected.
> 
> The symptoms were enlarged stomach, anaemia, slightly raised temperature, cant remember if she said the white blood cell count was elevated or not.
> ...


surely if mum passed on this illness he would have died earlier? not after injection (why only 1 that sounds odd?) and at 4 months old? or would it take a while for a 'virus' to devlop?

enlarge stomach and you said he had worms, could he have died from that anybody at 4 months old?

have you contacted them to tell them? what did they say?

for anyone ready kittens should be wormed from 3/4weeks of age
i do mine at 3,6,9 &12weeks with panacur paste and worm mum at the same time.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> It's generally done to increase the chances of getting a particular feature. E.g. Son looks like Mother, interbreed them and there's a much higher chance the offspring will look like both of them, effectively it reduces the number of alleles and possible permutations in the mix, and therefore more likely that the offspring will conform to a Breed standard.


Liz already stated that IF this close incest does happen (which it hardly ever does anymore) then the progeny of such a mating would have to be placed on the non-active register .... so there would be no offspring? So I am still missing the "why" ?

I am going to phone a vet nurse friend and ask about your kitten.... to me personally, the symptoms you describe are quite vague and quite common and cover a host of possible viral and bacterial infections... these need not be passed down mother to kitten. They can be contrated from other kittens or cats, or even from the environment they grow up in or from us (i.e: my kittens have a x-virus, you come to visit me, you take the virus back home with you on your hands/clothes/shoes).


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> surely if mum passed on this illness he would have died earlier? not after injection (why only 1 that sounds odd?) and at 4 months old? or would it take a while for a 'virus' to devlop?
> 
> enlarge stomach and you said he had worms, could he have died from that anybody at 4 months old?
> 
> ...


Why would he die earlier? All viruses have their own incubation period which can vary widely anyhow, dont understand your logic here.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> Liz already stated that IF this close incest does happen (which it hardly ever does anymore) then the progeny of such a mating would have to be placed on the non-active register .... so there would be no offspring? So I am still missing the "why" ?
> 
> I am going to phone a vet nurse friend and ask about your kitten.... to me personally, the symptoms you describe are quite vague and quite common and cover a host of possible viral and bacterial infections... these need not be passed down mother to kitten. They can be contrated from other kittens or cats, or even from the environment they grow up in or from us (i.e: my kittens have a x-virus, you come to visit me, you take the virus back home with you on your hands/clothes/shoes).


Fair enough thought you were asking why anyone would do it in the first place. In any event most pedigrees have been originally produced using these soughts of methods.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> im totally lost on in thread now with the op answers ut: ive no idea what/why/who/where he is trying to say? or why the thread was created? :crazy:
> 
> r.e. the mom/son/daughter matings are not common at all anymore, I think you cant reg them anymore can you?
> 
> reffering to the 'lock in' a certain 'trait' it can also 'lock in' the undesired traits aswell, so its only really done by experieinced breeders, and i dont know if they do it anymore? some might do.


Simply answering a question at that point...


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> surely if mum passed on this illness he would have died earlier? not after injection (why only 1 that sounds odd?) and at 4 months old? or would it take a while for a 'virus' to devlop?
> 
> enlarge stomach and you said he had worms, could he have died from that anybody at 4 months old?
> 
> ...


No, i said i originally thought he might have worms due to the symptoms, but clearlt it wasnt worms or i think the vet might just have spotted that.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> Liz already stated that IF this close incest does happen (which it hardly ever does anymore) then the progeny of such a mating would have to be placed on the non-active register .... so there would be no offspring? So I am still missing the "why" ?
> 
> I am going to phone a vet nurse friend and ask about your kitten.... to me personally, the symptoms you describe are quite vague and quite common and cover a host of possible viral and bacterial infections... these need not be passed down mother to kitten. They can be contrated from other kittens or cats, or even from the environment they grow up in or from us (i.e: my kittens have a x-virus, you come to visit me, you take the virus back home with you on your hands/clothes/shoes).


Given nobody i know has cats at the moment, it was most likely caught before coming here. That is clearly the most probable cause and i agree with the vet.

Dont see the point of this.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Tje said:


> Liz already stated that IF this close incest does happen (which it hardly ever does anymore) then the progeny of such a mating would have to be placed on the non-active register .... so there would be no offspring? So I am still missing the "why" ?
> 
> I am going to phone a vet nurse friend and ask about your kitten.... to me personally, *the symptoms you describe are quite vague and quite common and cover a host of possible viral and bacterial infections... these need not be passed down mother to kitten*. They can be contrated from other kittens or cats, or even from the environment they grow up in or from us (i.e: my kittens have a x-virus, you come to visit me, you take the virus back home with you on your hands/clothes/shoes).


just what i was thinking/trying to say!

let us know what your friend says.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

MarkA said:


> Given nobody i know has cats at the moment, it was most likely caught before coming here. That is clearly the most probable cause and i agree with the vet.
> 
> Dont see the point of this.


what was caught? you dont know how the poor kitten died so you cant say things like this, the vet was only guessing, it could have been anything!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> Given nobody i know has cats at the moment, it was most likely caught before coming here. That is clearly the most probable cause and i agree with the vet.
> 
> Dont see the point of this.


If you don't see the point of this, feel free to pull out at anytime you like. I'm not the one with a dead kitten. I'm not the one wanting to make sure I buy a healthy kitten next time.

Some breeders "set ups" are FAR more likely to be a breeding ground for viral and bacterial infections than others.

Best of luck finding a healthy kitten next time. You will have more chance of acheiving this goal by listening and learning and stopping assuming you have all the answers, frankly, you really don't.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2011)

I dont understand why you travelled so far and spent so much when you could go to a great breeder for that price.:confused1:

Everyone on the thread are just trying to help and I guess are partly angry because bad breeders would have no market if people stopped buying from them all together.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> what was caught? you dont know how the poor kitten died so you cant say things like this, the vet was only guessing, it could have been anything!


So how is asking someone unfamiliar with the cat and the case going to tell us anything more concrete?


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> I dont understand why you travelled so far and spent so much when you could go to a great breeder for that price.:confused1:
> 
> Everyone on the thread are just trying to help and I guess are partly angry because bad breeders would have no market if people stopped buying from them all together.


We simply didn't find anything locally, that we liked.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> Everyone on the thread are just trying to help and I guess are partly angry because bad breeders would have no market if people stopped buying from them all together.


I appreciate that people are trying to help, and im sorry i cant spend more time explaining clearly, on the other hand some people are posting replies ( not you) without actually reading what was written properly...


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> If you don't see the point of this, feel free to pull out at anytime you like. I'm not the one with a dead kitten. I'm not the one wanting to make sure I buy a healthy kitten next time.
> 
> Some breeders "set ups" are FAR more likely to be a breeding ground for viral and bacterial infections than others.
> 
> Best of luck finding a healthy kitten next time. You will have more chance of acheiving this goal by listening and learning and stopping assuming you have all the answers, frankly, you really don't.


I appreciate that you trying to help, but unless your friend has some kind of esp i cant see how they are going to add anything meangingfull to what the vet who actually had the cat in her care for a period of time said at the time.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

MarkA said:


> Given nobody i know has cats at the moment, it was most likely caught before coming here. That is clearly the most probable cause and i agree with the vet.
> 
> Dont see the point of this.


what are you trying to acheive by posting this here?


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

So going back to my original point...

I take there are no initiatives taking place to generally improve the situation, and everybody is basically ok with the status quo or doesnt think anything better can realistically be done (generally not this case specifically)?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

MarkA said:


> So going back to my original point...
> 
> I take there are no initiatives taking place to generally improve the situation, and everybody is basically ok with the status quo or doesnt think anything better can realistically be done (generally not this case specifically)?


improve What situation? whose ok with what?


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> what are you trying to acheive by posting this here?


is the thread really that hard to follow?


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> improve What situation? whose ok with what?


The situation of cats being bred allready diseased, come on keep up. That was the whole point of the thread, i wanted to learn if there is anything being done, for example with dogs at least its much more widely publicised about puppy farms and is in the publics conscience to a much greater extent than it is with cats.

The overwhelming response here is, basically what can be done is done and theres nothing more to do, or is that wrong?

Yeah i get it that poeple should educate themselves but we don't all have unlimited time to spend browsing the intermet, so i doubt thats going to work for an awfull lot of people.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

The GCCF is working hard on breeding policies and a genetic register but they can only discipline breeders who hold a GCCF prefix and register their kittens with them and even then they can only suspend the breeder from being able to register the kittens with them. They are unable to stop people breeding badly and they cannot do anythigng about back yard breeders who do not register their kittens with them.

The only way that will stop is if kitten buyers do their research and refuse to buy from back yard breeders and therefore there is no longer a market for this sort of breeder ....... it's a vicious circle.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> I appreciate that you trying to help, but unless your friend has some kind of esp i cant see how they are going to add anything meangingfull to what the vet who actually had the cat in her care for a period of time said at the time.


oh you stubborn stubborn man, what I got was a list of many possible viral and bacterial infections that the kitten could have contracted, to prove to you it did not have to be a viral infection he contracted from his mother. The vet didn't tell you anything meaningful -- the vet gave you a polite platitude that they give out willy nilly. By learning a little bit about viral and bacterial infections that occur in kittens, and how they are contracted, you could avoid it happening to you again (as you are obviously quite clueless about cats, I stupidly though that would be of assistance to you). But you know it all already, so it is indeed pointless trying to help you in any way. You have all the answers, so I maintain what I said earlier, you only came on here looking for shoulder pats about your dead kitten, to hear it was absolutely not your fault, and to hear hopefully of a body you could report the "breeder" to, when you don't even know what the kitten died of!

And before you go about criticizing other people for answering before they read your posts properly, you really should take a look at your own responses and the amount of direct questions you managed to continually avoid answering and other things you replied to without reading properly what had been said previously! People in glass houses... stone... shouldn't throw!!


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

MarkA said:


> The situation of cats being bred allready diseased, come on keep up.


But are they being bred diseased? You're just assuming that because your kitten has died. You didn't have a post mortem which would have been proof of disease or not, so the situation of diseased cats as you quote above is irrelevant without proof.

TB - I agree with you. This thread is pointless.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> Yeah i get it that poeple should educate themselves but we don't all have unlimited time to spend browsing the intermet.


I have never browsed the internet for tips on buying a 2nd hand car. I am just savvy enough to know to take someone a little bit "car knowledgeable" along with me, as I have no trouble accepting that I don't know it all, you seem to have a lot of trouble accepting you are pretty clueless about cats. You decided to buy a fashionable cross breed from an extremely dodgy breeder.... all the signs were there (I have located a load of her adds, current and past, and she is as dodgy as they come!!) and you were naive enough to hand over a lot of cash for a "pig in a poke" kitten. The time you have spent on the inernet AFTER this kittens death, if you spent half that amount of time and effort BEFORE you bought the kitten you could avoided this happening.

Not all kittens are born diseased and not all kittens contract killer diseases after their birth, not by a long shot !! The fact your bought from a very dodgy breeder just made the chances of this happening SO much higher than they would have been had you bought from a registered and ethical breeder. And had you bought from an ethical and registered breeder you would have had some form of recourse. You didn't, so you don't.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> oh you stubborn stubborn man, what I got was a list of many possible viral and bacterial infections that the kitten could have contracted, to prove to you it did not have to be a viral infection he contracted from his mother. The vet didn't tell you anything meaningful -- the vet gave you a polite platitude that they give out willy nilly. By learning a little bit about viral and bacterial infections that occur in kittens, and how they are contracted, you could avoid it happening to you again (as you are obviously quite clueless about cats, I stupidly though that would be of assistance to you). But you know it all already, so it is indeed pointless trying to help you in any way. You have all the answers, so I maintain what I said earlier, you only came on here looking for shoulder pats about your dead kitten, to hear it was absolutely not your fault, and to hear hopefully of a body you could report the "breeder" to, when you don't even know what the kitten died of!
> 
> And before you go about criticizing other people for answering before they read your posts properly, you really should take a look at your own responses and the amount of direct questions you managed to continually avoid answering and other things you replied to without reading properly what had been said previously! People in glass houses... stone... shouldn't throw!!


Your answering a question that i never asked in the first place, if i avoided answering meaningless questions its because thats not what i was asking about.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Mark,

I have been following this thread from the beginning, and I still stand by my advice, in the first page.



> However you have a choice, and people like you can make the change, either go to a reputable breeder, who follows standards outlined by a Governing body, has the Kittens health checked by a Vet prior to going to their new homes and has their Kittens Vaccinated,whos Breeding Cats are screened for genetic faults and disease.
> Or go to a Rescue Centre for one of the many Healthy Rescue Cats and Kittens they have in their Care.


If people like yourself insist on Vet checked kittens etc it would eliminate the issue, instead of blindly rushing in and purchasing, without researching or doing their homework properly, its takes two to make this equation work, both sides are at fault, the breeder's ethics and the purchaser's ethics for buying un-prepared.

Now everyone will agree that there are people out there that will be dishonest regardless of what the consequences are whether it is a dodgy motor, a fake dvd etc etc All they care about is money,not the welfare of you or what they sell.

And no matter what happens in terms of legislation, people will always try to find a loophole around these things, as to them it effects one thing there ability to make easy money from unsuspecting people.

Its your choice to buy from these people, if you buy a car you ask for an Mot certificate, why should it be any different for a Cat ask for an Mot certificate i.e a Vet check, make sure they have been vaccinated etc.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> But are they being bred diseased? You're just assuming that because your kitten has died. You didn't have a post mortem which would have been proof of disease or not, so the situation of diseased cats as you quote above is irrelevant without proof.
> 
> TB - I agree with you. This thread is pointless.


I agree, i dont know what the kitten died off. But the original question i asked was a general one, so are you saying there is no problem with diseased cats?


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

tellingtails said:


> Mark,
> 
> I have been following this thread from the beginning, and I still stand by my advice, in the first page.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with what your saying and i'll have to live and learn this time. Just a pity the whole thing couldnt be better regulated in some way. There are similar problems in other areas, although i guess for cats it's potentially much worse due to the shear numbers.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

MarkA said:


> *The situation of cats being bred allready diseased, come on keep up. *That was the whole point of the thread, i wanted to learn if there is anything being done, for example with dogs at least its much more widely publicised about puppy farms and is in the publics conscience to a much greater extent than it is with cats.
> 
> The overwhelming response here is, basically what can be done is done and theres nothing more to do, or is that wrong?
> 
> Yeah i *get it that poeple should educate themselves but we don't all have unlimited time to spend browsing the intermet*, so i doubt thats going to work for an awfull lot of people.


well the only cats i see being bred ill are back yard breeders, or people who dont health test and none are registered, so unless you want to police it what do you want to be done.

BReeding is regulated but you bought a cross moggy!!!!!!!!!!!!! i dont see how you dont get what everyone else sees.

if YOU cant take the time to look up and research a breed, then thats your problem. endless hours? a quick hour search will bring up alot of things, and im pretty sure that you have been on here all day replyin you could have looked all this up!



Soupie said:


> The only way that will stop is if kitten buyers do their research and refuse to buy from back yard breeders and therefore there is no longer a market for this sort of breeder ....... it's a vicious circle.


:thumbup: :thumbup: yippee some sense!



dougal22 said:


> But are they being bred diseased? You're just assuming that because your kitten has died. You didn't have a post mortem which would have been proof of disease or not, so the situation of diseased cats as you quote above is irrelevant without proof.
> 
> TB - I agree with you. This thread is pointless.


thats what i keep saying, plus you dont know if the other siblings are ill. this thread is based upon you thining that mum gave it a virus?? thats hearsaY!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> Your answering a question that i never asked in the first place, if i avoided answering meaningless questions its because thats not what i was asking about.


Sorry but did I imagine that you

a) refused to believe this kitens death could be down to anything apart from a viral infection contacted from the mother, and
b) that you asked for help to avoid this happening in the future.

No, I didnt imagine either. You stated both!

You got responses to both these things YOU asked about.

Youre just getting pissy and throwing your toys out of the pram because youre not hearing what you want to hear.

What is it you wanted us to do all jump on board with your harebrained "breeder regulation" scheme and tell you how brilliant it was?


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2011)

I would like to point out that the kitten could have died of all most anything. As I used to work in a vets I have seen this first hand.

In my breed for example (shetland sheepdog) the breed is known to have weakness's against certain drugs such as flea treatments and I have known a handful die of flea treatment, which couldnt be the breeders fault.

Its just one of those things.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

MarkA said:


> I agree, i dont know what the kitten died off. But the original question i asked was a general one, *so are you saying there is no problem with diseased cats?*




No, that is not what I'm saying at all. How did you arrive at that conclusion? It appears you read and twist things to how you want to interpret them.

You were the one who had a kitten die. You were the one who chose not to have a PM.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

MarkA said:


> I completely agree with what your saying and i'll have to live and learn this time. Just a pity the whole thing couldnt be better regulated in some way. There are similar problems in other areas, although i guess for cats it's potentially much worse due to the shear numbers.


But regulated by who, and who makes the rules, and who sets the standards, and what one person thinks is a minimum standard another might think it is below average.

Do you allow everything, I.e crossbreeding or just Pedigrees.

How do you enforce such a program, who sets the penalties.

How do you finance the program.

If you brought in a breeder licence, you still would not eliminate people breeding without one, nor would you eliminate people purchasing from them because they are cheaper or they felt sorry etc etc.

Our Government had Dog ownership licences, and they could not even Police that, and that is a simple process you have a dog, you need a licence, but the amount of dogs and the cost of the licence never created enough revenue to sustain such a policy, and people just went sod it, I am not getting one, so they abolished it.

So how in your view can you achieve the impossible you must have some idea of how you would correct the problem, you are asking us our thoughts but where are your thoughts, how would you solve this problem, its ok saying it should be regulated, but how would you achieve, some of the problems I have outlined.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> Sorry but did I imagine that you
> 
> a) refused to believe this kitens death could be down to anything apart from a viral infection contacted from the mother, and
> b) that you asked for help to avoid this happening in the future.
> ...


Not at all, i wanted to know if there are any initiatives underway that could be supported somehow. Instead the thread went off allong an agenda not of my choosing on a wild goose chase of looking for alternative causes of death when its practically irrelevant to my original question of what inititives are there.

When the answer came back as none, not even some kind of publicity campaign of the most basic nature, then im not sorry for exploring possibilities but apparently i'm the only one and everybody else just accepts the status quo.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Sorry but this is a perfect example of what a mess this country is in when it comes to taking responsibility.

The responsibility for buying a healthy kitten from an ethical breeder is not that of any establishment or club or governing body or law enforcing office. It is that of the kitten buyer. 

I mean, no one even buys a washing machine without checking Which & looking at online reviews & seeing which one is most cost effective whilst being most effecting with the washing load. Why would buying a cat that should live until they are 15 years old be any different?!

Bad breeders shouldn't be selling or breeding kittens that are in a poor state of health but it has been going on for years & there is little to nothing to stop them except one thing: do your research & don't buy from them!!!!

For £400 you could get a genuinely health tested, purebred, superbly socialised, underfoot, lively, gorgeous kitten! You could get one for less than that, too, if the price tag is the issue.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> Sorry but this is a perfect example of what a mess this country is in when it comes to taking responsibility.
> 
> The responsibility for buying a healthy kitten from an ethical breeder is not that of any establishment or club or governing body or law enforcing office. It is that of the kitten buyer.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:

true people put more effort into looking up cars and fridges than they do a life that could hopfully be with you for 10+ plus


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> Instead the thread went off allong an agenda not of my choosing on a wild goose chase of looking for alternative causes of death when its practically irrelevant to my original question of what inititives are there.


that only happened because *you* wrongly insisted (without an ounce of proof or logic) that the kitten died from a virus contratced from its mother. And *you* asked how you could prevent it happening in the future, well quite simply, having a kittle bit of knowledge or common cat viruses and bacterial infections and how they are contracted would most likely have prevented you buying from this dodgy "breeder" in the first place.



MarkA said:


> apparently i'm the only one and everybody else just accepts the status quo.


ehhh excuse me, but you're the one with the dead "pig in a poke" kitten, not any of the rest of us! Other people manage to buy perfectly healthy kittens with ease. You are the one with the issue, not the rest of us. And just for the record, the issue you do have (or did have) was very easily preventable.



messyhearts said:


> Sorry but this is a perfect example of what a mess this country is in when it comes to taking responsibility.
> 
> The responsibility for buying a healthy kitten from an ethical breeder is not that of any establishment or club or governing body or law enforcing office. It is that of the kitten buyer.


hear hear !! You are right, the UK is getting increasing worse with this "pass the buck" culture as displayed perfectly by the OP. It's high time that people started taking responsibility for their own actions and stopped trying to push us further down the route of the "nanny state" where everything is decided for us. Because the OP has stuffed up, he wants a "moggy breeder regulation scheme" introduced to protect him from himself. Sad, lol.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

tellingtails said:


> But regulated by who, and who makes the rules, and who sets the standards, and what one person thinks is a minimum standard another might think it is below average.
> 
> Do you allow everything, I.e crossbreeding or just Pedigrees.
> 
> ...


Well i certainly dont have the answers,

However it seems to me that problems with cat breeders just isnt publicised in any way, certainly not the same way it is with dogs. I've never owned a dog im my life but still am very aware of the situation with puppy farms, but with cats, zippo. I naively assumed the same problems did not exist, and i dont normally count myself as uneducated or illinformed, but in this case certainly yes.

You would probably have to make the public more aware then maybe introduce some kind of voluntary registration scheme, that at least the public once aware, can choose to go to a breeder who is known to have had the cats tested etc.

I dont know if the main cat societies insist on disease testing before registration, i assume not? I can also see a problem that their main focus is breed standards and there is more than one society and they are mostly interested in pedigreed cats.

I'm not sure it would need neccesarily be expensive, anyway its just a thought was hoping it would generate some ideas, i just hate the idea of doing nothing now ive read about the problem and, possibly, experienced it.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> that only happened because *you* wrongly insisted (without an ounce of proof or logic) that the kitten died from a virus contratced from its mother. And *you* asked how you could prevent it happening in the future, well quite simply, having a kittle bit of knowledge or common cat viruses and bacterial infections and how they are contracted would most likely have prevented you buying from this dodgy "breeder" in the first place.
> 
> ehhh excuse me, but you're the one with the dead "pig in a poke" kitten, not any of the rest of us! Other people manage to buy perfectly healthy kittens with ease. You are the one with the issue, not the rest of us. And just for the record, the issue you do have (or did have) was very easily preventable.
> 
> hear hear !! You are right, the UK is getting increasing worse with this "pass the buck" culture as displayed perfectly by the OP. It's high time that people started taking responsibility for their own actions and stopped trying to push us further down the route of the "nanny state" where everything is decided for us. Because the OP has stuffed up, he wants a "moggy breeder regulation scheme" introduced to protect him from himself. Sad, lol.


And this is a perfect example of why things will never change... People will allways stuff themselves up while the smug ones sit back and point fingers and say we cant do anything.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

MarkA said:


> And this is a perfect example of why things will never change... People will allways stuff themselves up while the smug ones sit back and point fingers and say we cant do anything.


Things will never change because people still buy these kittens & fuel the problem.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> I'm not sure it would need neccesarily be expensive, anyway its just a thought was hoping it would generate some ideas, i just hate the idea of doing nothing now ive read about the problem and, possibly, experienced it.


well why don't you do it... you take the initative and make this issue puclic, after all, like you say, it won't be expensive for you to do so....  ..... and I am sure you won't mind at all when the next person totally disrgards prior research and claims total ignorance of your efforts and publicity when they come on to tell us about their dead kitten from a dodgy backyard breeder.

The information is out there and very easy to find. But by all means reinvent the wheel at your own expense and effort. I am sure we will offer you full moral support. :thumbsup:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> And this is a perfect example of why things will never change... People will allways stuff themselves up while the smug ones sit back and point fingers and say we cant do anything.


no... lol... I am not the one with the dead kitten, you are, remember?

I also don't buy "pig in the poke" cars either, not because I have a city and guilds car mechanic diploma, heck no, because I am savvy enough to know my own limitations and ask for help from people who are car savvy.

If I just went out and bought a car off of Dellboy and it broke down outside the forcourt, I really wouldn't be posting on internet forums demanding new legislation to protect me from myself. I would just admit I screwed up and would learn from my mistake and move on. Something you are obviously having massive difficulties doing!

:lol:


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> well why don't you do it... you take the initative and make this issue puclic, after all, like you say, it won't be expensive for you to do so....  ..... and I am sure you won't mind at all when the next person totally disrgards prior research and claims total ignorance of your efforts and publicity when they come on to tell us about their dead kitten from a dodgy backyard breeder.
> 
> The information is out there and very easy to find. But by all means reinvent the wheel at your own expense and effort. I am sure we will offer you full moral support. :thumbsup:


So if youve done all these things before, why not say so clearly several pages ago and make a suggestion as to how people can help? It would have saved a lot of typing. Yeah i get the self education bit but according to this thread its not working.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

MarkA said:


> Well i certainly dont have the answers,
> 
> However it seems to me that problems with cat breeders just isnt publicised in any way, certainly not the same way it is with dogs. I've never owned a dog im my life but still am very aware of the situation with puppy farms, but with cats, zippo. I naively assumed the same problems did not exist, and i dont normally count myself as uneducated or illinformed, but in this case certainly yes.
> 
> ...


The majority of people do research prior to buying, and just about every Cat info site, breed organisation or Governing body supply's info on the Pitfalls in buying a Kitten and also makes everyone aware of what to look for and what to ask.

They also give advice on breed specifics etc.

The information is available, it is not hidden, there are bad elements of everything in life, but if you choose to overlook them, you must be willing to accept the consequences of such an action.

for future reference,

Choosing a Reputable Cat Breeder - Questions to Ask a Cat Breeder


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

messyhearts said:


> Things will never change because people still buy these kittens & fuel the problem.


Hence youve accepted the status quo.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MarkA said:


> So if youve done all these things before, why not say so clearly several pages ago and make a suggestion as to how people can help? It would have saved a lot of typing. Yeah i get the self education bit but according to this thread its not working.


it's not working for YOU as you're the one with a now dead "pig in the poke" kitten. The only evidence on this thread of current measures not working is you.



MarkA said:


> Hence youve accepted the status quo.


Messy hasn't accepted any status quo, she just knows how to buy a healthy kitten and doesn't need an idiots guide to kitten buying foisted upon her, you're the one with the problem buying kittens, remember? I bet you any money Messy also doesn't support a national "how to wipe your ar$e" media awareness campaign, and that's probably because she knows how to do that herself too.

You really do seem to keep forgetting... you are the one with the issue. Not the rest of us.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

tellingtails said:


> The information is available, it is not hidden, there are bad elements of everything in life, but if you choose to overlook them, you must be willing to accept the consequences of such an action.
> 
> for future reference,
> 
> Choosing a Reputable Cat Breeder - Questions to Ask a Cat Breeder


that's a nice easy to read and undertsand list TT, it will be helpful for a lot of people. :thumbsup:
Tried to rep you but I have to spread me love around some more. 
(as long as they don't tell my husband, lol)


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Tje said:


> it's not working for YOU as you're the one with a now dead "pig in the poke" kitten. The only evidence on this thread of current measures not working is you.
> 
> Messy hasn't accepted any status quo, she just knows how to buy a healthy kitten and doesn't need an idiots guide to kitten buying foisted upon her, you're the one with the problem buying kittens, remember? I bet you any money Messy also doesn't support a national "how to wipe your ar$e" media awareness campaign, and that's probably because she knows how to do that herself too.
> 
> You really do seem to keep forgetting... you are the one with the issue. Not the rest of us.


Which is why I was here trying to find a way to help or make amends... Anyway next time use a reputable breeder, I got it...


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Tje said:


> that's a nice easy to read and undertsand list TT, it will be helpful for a lot of people. :thumbsup:
> Tried to rep you but I have to spread me love around some more.
> (as long as they don't tell my husband, lol)


:lol::lol::lol: :thumbup::thumbup:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> and thanks for explanation on the mother/son father/daughter breedings... I would have been horrified to think this was common place. And very relieving to hear that that the kittens born out of any such mating would have to be registered on the non-active.... however... that does beg the question... why do it at all?


Well, the argument would be that you do it to fix type. I suspect that lack of immediate availability of an alternative stud has rather more to do with it though. Given a screaming queen and the option of sticking her in a pen with your own stud or getting blood tests done, paying a stud fee, spending a lot of money on petrol, and then maybe having no option to sell kittens on the active anyway because the stud owner has severe restrictions, I guess it's hardly surprising that the owner chooses to stick her in a pen with the available boy. It's one of the many side effects of breeders making it difficult for other breeders to obtain stud cats (in my opinion, of course)

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MarkA said:


> The symptoms were enlarged stomach, anaemia, slightly raised temperature, cant remember if she said the white blood cell count was elevated or not.


Ah! Are we talking about wet FIP here?

Liz


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

MarkA said:


> Hence youve accepted the status quo.





Tje said:


> it's not working for YOU as you're the one with a now dead "pig in the poke" kitten. The only evidence on this thread of current measures not working is you.
> 
> Messy hasn't accepted any status quo, she just knows how to buy a healthy kitten and doesn't need an idiots guide to kitten buying foisted upon her, you're the one with the problem buying kittens, remember? I bet you any money Messy also doesn't support a national "how to wipe your ar$e" media awareness campaign, and that's probably because she knows how to do that herself too.
> 
> You really do seem to keep forgetting... you are the one with the issue. Not the rest of us.


Very true. I did my research beforehand & have three very healthy & happy cats. If they weren't healthy, then it isn't my fault as there was no gun to my head when I bought them - I could have walked away.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well, the argument would be that you do it to fix type. I suspect that lack of immediate availability of an alternative stud has rather more to do with it though. Given a screaming queen and the option of sticking her in a pen with your own stud or getting blood tests done, paying a stud fee, spending a lot of money on petrol, and then maybe having no option to sell kittens on the active anyway because the stud owner has severe restrictions, I guess it's hardly surprising that the owner chooses to stick her in a pen with the available boy. It's one of the many side effects of breeders making it difficult for other breeders to obtain stud cats (in my opinion, of course)
> 
> Liz


I still dont get it, the to fix type bit. Why would I want to fix the type of a kitten if I couldnt even register that kitten on the active register? What purpose would fixing the type serve if I could never breed from it?

This bit I do get, just dont (at all) like!!!! I cannot believe that breeders would mate mother to son (or father to daughter) just to shut up a calling queen or to save on stud fees and the inconvenience of going to a stud. Surely there are terrible health implications for the kittens born out of such a pairing? Do breeders fudge the paperwork when they breed in this way or does the kitten buyer get a pedigree that states fathers name and grandfathers name as the same cat. Oh geez, this is making me feel ill.

I don't think the OP will be able to answer the FIP question as there was no biopsy done post mortem.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> I still dont get it, the to fix type bit. Why would I want to fix the type of a kitten if I couldnt even register that kitten on the active register? What purpose would fixing the type serve if I could never breed from it?


It is only very recently (within a year, I think) that the rule has been introduced. I have a two year old stud boy from such a mating (I did not breed him myself)



> Surely there are terrible health implications for the kittens born out of such a pairing?


What concerns me far more is the hidden inbreeding. I am thinking of a breeder with a less common breed, where the _least_ closely related stud in the whole coutnry was her own queen's grandfather. Or one of my breeds, where the _average_ mating is equivalent to mating half-siblings, if you trace the lines back to foundation.



> Do breeders fudge the paperwork when they breed in this way or does the kitten buyer get a pedigree that states fathers name and grandfathers name as the same cat.


No fudging as far as I know. Of course anything is possible: unless you have DNA testing on all kittens, linked to a microchip number on both parents, how can you ever _prove_ who the parents are?

Liz


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Following on from Liz's point about 'hidden' inbreeding, I know of several breeders who are line breeding but don't appear to have a clue they are doing it as they just haven't researched enough? The matings of father/daughter and mother son ruling re kittens on active came in last year.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Reading the symptoms it could have been FIP, or FIP in combination with FeLV, it seems FeLV increases the probability of the existing corona viruses mutating and causing FIP. Could also be something else entirely of course.

If it was FIP without FeLV, then more to do with probabilities than diseased cat breeding presumably?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Dear Mark.

I am sorry to hear of your loss, I truly am 

Unfortunately, as hard as it is to hear you've only yourself to blame for; 1. Not knowing what he died of, so you couldn't possibly say if it's the breeder fault or even yours (you could have stepped in some cat poo outside from a cat with a number of illnesses). 2. If it was down to the breeder, you didn't research enough to prevent this happening.

Unfortunately the only way this will stop happening to folks like you is if folks like you stop buying from irresponsible breeders.

I do know that when people buy their first kitten they don't necessarily think about the importance of health first. Ideally this would not be the case. But unless you're part of a community that is aware of health problems in cats and kittens then you would have no reason to be concerned.

On that basis I have a suggestion. Instead of concentrating on figuring out a way to have all breeders regulated like you suggest ... why not instead try to raise public awareness on the importance of kitten health before they buy?

You could contact a national paper and see if they would be prepared to do a story about it. Full of facts and why it's important to do research to avoid heartbreak. Or you could even contact the likes of This Morning, who often do slots about dogs during adoption drives. They could well be interested.

Public awareness is probably the only way to change things. Try going down that route instead  I'd be (and I'm sure other here) happy to help you do this! I've been trying to get the CP to sit up and take notice on rescue issues (which doesn't seem to be working ), so I'd welcome a slight divert. It's all linked after all.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Hi Aurelia,

What your saying makes a lot of sense about publicising the possible problems.

Certainly last time i lived in a house with cats was probably ~30 years ago, and at that time none of them ever got any of the diseases that i'm now reading about, at least they all lived a long life. Even the feral cats that i tamed and brought into the house were seemingly disease free. Which makes the current loss even more of a shock I guess.


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## MarkA (Jan 23, 2011)

Soupie said:


> Following on from Liz's point about 'hidden' inbreeding, I know of several breeders who are line breeding but don't appear to have a clue they are doing it as they just haven't researched enough? The matings of father/daughter and mother son ruling re kittens on active came in last year.


Whats the effect on their health, with parrots inbreeding is responsible for them dropping out of the sky with a heart attack.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> I've been trying to get the CP to sit up and take notice on rescue issues (which doesn't seem to be working )


O, I'm truly sorry to hear that 

Liz


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