# What can you do when a breeder refuses to pay the stud fee for your dog



## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

A local breeder of a variety of dogs close to us, used our stud dog, the bitch had eleven puppies, but he is refusing to pay the stud fee.
Anyone else had problems with him, I have since found out he just breeds and breeds without any regard for any of his bitches, wish I knew that first, would never have let him use our dog.
David Marr and husband Adam
Wraggland house.
Near Boston
Lincolnshire
Refusing to answer their phones, landline has been cut off,they hide in the bathroom when you go round there, I supposed they are used to people after them for money.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

did you not ask for health test results / pedigree / registration before the mating and the stud fee once mated?

With cats you pay once the mating has taken place and you pick your cat up.
Although some ask for money when you drop your cat off, but I don't use those studs.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Well those pups are facing a very uncertain future aren't they - never mind the stud fee! Why on earth would you just stud out your precious dog to any old Tom, Dick or Harry? 
Hate to say it but serves you right and it seems your main concern is not getting paid, never mind the entire lives of all those pups you helped to produce. Frigging sickening really!!!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> did you not ask for health test results / pedigree / registration before the mating and the stud fee once mated?
> 
> With cats you pay once the mating has taken place and you pick your cat up.
> Although some ask for money when you drop your cat off, but I don't use those studs.


Yep i dont take any money from stud services unless iv witnessed matings and usually i take photo proof.Then they pay upon collection.I get a good idea who they are too as i see the documents they bring such as heath tests,vacs card,registratin and pedigree ect.


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

Yes we saw all the paperwork, he said he would give my son 2 puppies as he is wishing to have one of his dogs sons and my sons best friend was having the other, so no money was not involved originaly, the dog has only ever covered 2 bitches.But now no puppies have been given, then he should pay the stud fee

I will ignore malmum comments, very rude.As I said would never of let him cover her if I had known


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

welshterrier12 said:


> Yes we saw all the paperwork, he said he would give my son 2 puppies as he is wishing to have one of his dogs sons and my sons best friend was having the other, so no money was not involved originaly, the dog has only ever covered 2 bitches.But now no puppies have been given, then he should pay the stud fee
> 
> I will ignore malmum comments, very rude.As I said would never of let him cover her if I had known


Did you draw up a contract with a solicitor? If not you just have a 'promise' and he can basically just not do it...You should have researched/asked about. Does he show?

Is 2 pups normal for a stud fee?? That type of thing isn't don't with cats, seems a bit high?


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

The dog has many field trial championships, and is getting on a bit, my son has had him since he was 9 years old so thought it would be nice to have another one to follow on from his life long best friend.
He was a friend of a friend so no did not check him out, him and his husband seemed nice enough, they brought the bitch to out farm as my son would not allow his dog to go somewhere he did not know.
I think we had a lucky escape, by way of keeping him here, as I have now had several pms about this guy.
BAD NEWS


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

welshterrier12 said:


> Yes we saw all the paperwork, he said he would give my son 2 puppies as he is wishing to have one of his dogs sons and my sons best friend was having the other, so no money was not involved originaly, the dog has only ever covered 2 bitches.But now no puppies have been given, then he should pay the stud fee
> 
> I will ignore malmum comments, very rude.As I said would never of let him cover her if I had known


What paperwork did you see? What contract did you have? Did you sign the registration papers or were they registered online?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

welshterrier12 said:


> The dog has many field trial championships, and is getting on a bit, my son has had him since he was 9 years old so thought it would be nice to have another one to follow on from his life long best friend.
> He was a friend of a friend so no did not check him out, him and his husband seemed nice enough, they brought the bitch to out farm as my son would not allow his dog to go somewhere he did not know.
> I think we had a lucky escape, by way of keeping him here, as I have now had several pms about this guy.
> BAD NEWS


For a start, most working bred dogs have reams of FTCH in their pedigree, it is pretty standard. Does your dog have any awards? Was he health tested before being used at stud?


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

Yes he has and yes he was, does this make a difference to someone not keeping to thier end of the bargain then. We bought him from a shooting kennels up in Dumfrishire


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

Have not been able to see the pups, found out they had arrived from a local farmer, David Marr did not let us know they had arrived.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

welshterrier12 said:


> Yes he has and yes he was, does this make a difference to someone not keeping to thier end of the bargain then. We bought him from a shooting kennels up in Dumfrishire


_If_ he has working awards, you must be involved in the gundog world so I'm surprised at your naivety regards allowing him to be used at stud. I'm with Malmum - I think you have brought this on yourself. Of course, they were wrong not to keep to their end of the bargain, but unknown stud dogs who's owners don't know what they are doing only tend to attract irresponsible breeders. The fact that you did not do any research on this breeder and the bitch he wanted mated rather makes you as irresponsible and culpable as the stud dog owner. Sounds like a puppy farmer if he breeds lots of breeds has lots of litters. A little research should have shown this _before_ you agreed to him mating your dog.


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

By which way does what awards he has make any difference, not everyone who shows or works dogs breeds them all the time, as I have said this was only the second time, I find your comments very harsh, how does this become our fault when you trust someone.
When you google him he comes up as a fox terrier breeder, nothing bad comes up.Who would you ask beforehand, kennel club will not discuss anything, thier comments are we work on trust.


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

Since posting this, I have now had contact from several people that have had bad experiences with him and his husband.Should of asked on here first maybe.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

welshterrier12 said:


> By which way does what awards he has make any difference, not everyone who shows or works dogs breeds them all the time, as I have said this was only the second time, I find your comments very harsh, how does this become our fault when you trust someone.
> When you google him he comes up as a fox terrier breeder, nothing bad comes up.Who would you ask beforehand, kennel club will not discuss anything, thier comments are we work on trust.


Of course the kennel club will not discuss things - they are a registry. However, the responsibility of your dog and these puppies being born lies with *you*.

Any decent breeder of working dogs will be interested in the awards YOUR dog has won, not how much red he has in his pedigree. Most working dogs have very red pedigrees - doesn't make the good enough quality to be used as stud dogs that is why what HE has achieved is the important factor. So, you won't attract any decent breeder without having proven your dog. You will, however, attract the irresponsible kind of breeder that you have done.

My comments may seem harsh, but I deplore irresponsible breeding and that includes irresponsible stud work.


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

The dog has been proven as a good working dog, and his last litter of pups produced 2 very good working trial dogs.He was interested in this of course.So how does this make us irresponsible. All the pups would have gone to good working , shooting families as all were spoken for by shooting collegues of my son, until he did the dirty.
If nothing bad shows up about a breeder anywhere, how is one supposed to know?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

really instead of studding your boy, what health tests does your breed need? You could have just bought a puppy, would have been easier, remember that offspring are a mix of parents plus upbringing, often nothing like their parents, just happen to have their dna! 

Ahhhhhh ok its just clicked, you let him your dog at stud and a get a puppy for free? Ah I guess that's why I see so many adverts saying no stud fee but want pick of litter, went right over my head!!


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

I have not said anything about red in his pedigree as you put it.
Just that he had won lots of ftc


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> really instead of studding your boy, what health tests does your breed need? You could have just bought a puppy, would have been easier, remember that offspring are a mix of parents plus upbringing, often nothing like their parents, just happen to have their dna!
> 
> Ahhhhhh ok its just clicked, *you let him your dog at stud and a get a puppy for free?* Ah I guess that's why I see so many adverts saying no stud fee but want pick of litter, went right over my head!!


The thing that doesn't add up for me is WHY would you want a puppy from a litter by a bitch that you know nothing about? It just doesn't happen like that unless except in irresponsible breeding.


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

Yes, as he has been such a good best friend for our son, he wanted one of his sons to start training up later on for when his retired. He trained him himself form the age of 9 and has done very well with him.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> The thing that doesn't add up for me is WHY would you want a puppy from a litter by a bitch that you know nothing about? It just doesn't happen like that unless except in irresponsible breeding.


Oh god yes! Didn't even think of that! 



welshterrier12 said:


> Yes, as he has been such a good best friend for our son, he wanted one of his sons to start training up later on for when his retired. He trained him himself form the age of 9 and has done very well with him.


Why didn't you go and buy a puppy from health tested registered good lines?


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

When have I quoted that I knew nothing about the bitch?
We have seen her work, seen her pedigree, where she comes from e.t.c


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

Think you have all got a bit of track, she has good bloodlines so does our dog.
Both are working gundogs, both proven, both health tested.
What is wrong with wanting a pup from your own dog?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> where she comes from e.t.c


So why is this all such a surprise to you?



welshterrier12 said:


> Think you have all got a bit of track, she has good bloodlines so does our dog.
> Both are working gundogs, both proven, both health tested.
> *What is wrong with wanting a pup from your own dog*?


Nothing if it's done responsibly but clearly you didn't and now you have pups having been born into this world , bred by a puppy farmer/byb who could go anywhere and you are responsible for bringing them into the world. And all you seem concerned about is your stud fee. Short of taking him to court, and if you don't have a contract it will be his word against yours, you're unlikely to get your stud fee.


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

Pardon me.
I did everything responsibly.Our choice to think we could have a pup from our own dog.
I couldn't give a s*** about the money,I am not interested in the money,I was looking for some advice as to the best way to make such a crook and clearly a puppy farmer pay for what he has done and will continue to do.
But with attitudes like yours is probably why no one has mentioned it before as they would get shot down and blamed for someone elses misdoings. Maybe if you were not so critical of people and helped a bit more with thier dilemas then people would be more willing to post these problems rather than just pm .
Never have come across such rudeness on a forum.

So glad acd people aren't like this and yes we have one red one blue, they are working dogs, sheep,pigs,goats and cattle, and yes they do work all day, live in the house, don't bite people,live with 5 other dogs quite happily and sleep with us.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

welshterrier12 said:


> Pardon me.
> I did everything responsibly.Our choice to think we could have a pup from our own dog.
> I couldn't give a s*** about the money,I am not interested in the money,I was looking for some advice as to the best way to make such a crook and clearly a puppy farmer pay for what he has done and will continue to do.
> But with attitudes like yours is probably why no one has mentioned it before as they would get shot down and blamed for someone elses misdoings. Maybe if you were not so critical of people and helped a bit more with thier dilemas then people would be more willing to post these problems rather than just pm .
> ...


If you'd gone about this responsibly you wouldn't be in this mess!

You may want to make the 'crook' pay, but I would be careful about naming on the forum - don't know if the mods have seen but they may well remove the details - it could be construed as libel/defamation of character.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

welshterrier12 said:


> I will ignore malmum comments, very rude.As I said would never of let him cover her if I had known


Feel free to ignore, your prerogative but not your prerogative to ignore where the pups end up and since relationships have gone t!ts up you're not likely to know who they go to or what happens to any of them, that later on are not wanted and it does happen. What you could and at least should have done is researched this person thoroughly BEFORE studding you boy, that's just a normal thing for a breeder to do - that and checking health tests for both parents.

You now know this person is a back hard breeder - doesn't care about his own dogs let alone where the pups end up  If you find yourself approached like this in the future try to think of ALL of the pups lives and not just two you can get for family and friends. Poor puppies!


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

As I:mad2: have now said several times,we checked the health tests.
again we could not find anything bad about him anywhere, it is only since joining this forum I have discovered I am not the first one


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

welshterrier12 said:


> Pardon me.
> I did everything responsibly.Our choice to think we could have a pup from our own dog.
> I couldn't give a s*** about the money,I am not interested in the money,I was looking for some advice* as to the best way to make such a crook and clearly a puppy farmer pay for what he has done* and will continue to do.
> But with attitudes like yours is probably why no one has mentioned it before as they would get shot down and blamed for someone elses misdoings. Maybe if you were not so critical of people and helped a bit more with thier dilemas then people would be more willing to post these problems rather than just pm .
> ...


It may be frustrating, but the simple fact is that it isn't too difficult to find out someone who's a bad breeder. Health testing alone isn't proof of a good breeder, nor whether the bitch (or dog) has a *good* pedigree. You allowed your dog to be used and are now calling him a crook because you didn't get your money, or the pups; call me cynical, but if you'd got your money or the pups, would he still be an ok breeder in your mind? Because from your description of the number of breeds in your original post and that you had then found out he simply breeds and breeds and breeds, it doesn't seem you had done as much research as you could perhaps have done. That's not harsh, that's simply truthful, it seems you had already found out yourself they had a poor reputation.

Sorry, but I think you'll either have to bite the bullet and consult your solicitor, or count it as a hard lesson learned and ensure you don't allow your dog to be used again, without doing a lot of research. Different dog circles operate in different ways, the gundog world for the most part, doesn't do as many health tests (as yet) as the show world - of course that depends on the breed - and dogs are perceived much more as a working member of the family, not *just* a pet, in some ways more important and yet the emphasis in the show world is much more as a part of the family (generally speaking). BUT there's good and bad across the board, hence the need for lots of research before breeding if you care about the outcome of any matings your dog(s) are involved with.


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## miti999 (Mar 19, 2009)

For those of you that do stud out, is that the end of the arrangement? Do you actively take a part in what happens next to bitch, care of puppies etc? 

Or is the stud service just that? 

After you've approved the bitch and money has changed hands, does your involvement as stud owner end there? 

What's the protocol?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Not read the whole thread but surely the dogs cannot be registered until and unless you have signed that you used your dog on their bitch.

Most people do not do this until and unless they have received the money.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Not read the whole thread but surely the dogs cannot be registered until and unless you have signed that you used your dog on their bitch.
> 
> Most people do not do this until and unless they have received the money.


was just thinking the exact same thing myself,im guessing this person was never interested in the parerwork side of things from the start and was going to sell the pups pedigree but no papers/kc. If me though i would have expected payment before the guy left with his bitch,your paying for a stud service which the dog provided so money should have been given then surly,unless it works different in the dog world.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

miti999 said:


> For those of you that do stud out, is that the end of the arrangement? Do you actively take a part in what happens next to bitch, care of puppies etc?
> 
> Or is the stud service just that?
> 
> ...


For most stud dog owners they provide the service and want to hear if/when pups are born and are healthy, but their involvement really ends there.



smokeybear said:


> Not read the whole thread but surely the dogs cannot be registered until and unless you have signed that you used your dog on their bitch.
> 
> Most people do not do this until and unless they have received the money.


I thought it was the other way round, that the owner of the dog objects or writes to say their dog wasn't used?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> > Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
> > Not read the whole thread but surely the dogs cannot be registered until and unless you have signed that you used your dog on their bitch.
> >
> > Most people do not do this until and unless they have received the money.
> ...


Depends how the litter are registered. If paperwork is sent in it needs to be signed by the stud owner to say mating has taken place. If done online, then the stud owner gets sent a letter saying that the registration has been applied for and if they have any objections or the mating hasn't taken place to contact them.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Depends how the litter are registered. If paperwork is sent in it needs to be signed by the stud owner to say mating has taken place. If done online, then the stud owner gets sent a letter saying that the registration has been applied for and if they have any objections or the mating hasn't taken place to contact them.


The problem with registering online and the stud owner getting a letter is I once recieved the papers for pups before the letter arrived asking if my dog had been used as a stud. I owned the stud dog and our family owned the bitch so they still sent a letter but the registration papers arrived 2 days before the stud letter.

If they are planning to register the pups get in touch with the KC and explain the situation to them you never know they may be able to help. If the registration is to be done online you could always get in touch with the bitch owner and tell him if the stud fee isn't paid you will contest that the dog was used as a stud.

On the odd times I have allowed my dogs to be used as a stud I have always recieved payment at the time of the mating. I alwasy say I want to see the pups when they reach a certain age and if there is a pup I like then I would return the stud fee and take the pup. I would never not take the money and just say I want a pup as there may not be a pup I like.


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## welshterrier12 (Aug 30, 2013)

Oh I will object to kc reg and I will do everything in my power to see the pups are homed to nice homes.My sons friends at young farmers are now all clubbing together to go one by one to buy them, as, if he has no kc registration, not worth much are they? We can then home them, it will be well worth it.As all would go to loving farm homes.

Never would I trust a breeder again with waiting for a pup, I would do as you advise get payment then if there was a pup I liked buy it.

Nothing anywhere showed up bad about him.Now we know different.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

welshterrier12 said:


> Since posting this, I have now had contact from several people that have had bad experiences with him and his husband.Should of asked on here first maybe.


We all learn from our mistakes...the thing is, if you are straightforward and honest yourself, you expect other people to have similar standards. I have a stable-yard and try to be decent in my dealings, keep the prices down, etc etc. You cannot believe what a load of devious, backstabbing liveries I constantly attract! Basically, you can't assume that anyone is decent...sad to hear your story.


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## something ridiculous (Mar 9, 2013)

I'm confused. You say that you have not yet been given the 2 pups that you were promised, but then mention about buying one and making sure they go to good homes. How old are they? Are they old enough to go to new homes, as you wouldn't get your pups until this point.


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