# ceasar millan



## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

seems some on here dont rate him as a trainer,ive always thought he was very good.i understand its tv,and not everything is as it seems,but i agree with his philosophys!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Nope, I don't rate him at all, it's kinda a touchy subject on here, the pro Cesar vs con Cesar debate, so would you like some popcorn? Sweet or savoury?
Would you like a tin hat with that?


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## Roobster2010 (Jan 17, 2011)

Well you're in the minority on here Albert, if you type Cesar Milan into search, you'll find umpteen done to death threads all about him.


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## Sheen and Eli (Mar 28, 2010)

Now I don't normally do this but ready today


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## Paganman (Jul 29, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> but i agree with his philosophys!


Fibba!

You are just missing your red blob and longing for it back.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Im sure he is a very nice person, he certainly comes across as one, and i do think he does care to a degree.

However, his methods are derived from ignorance, arrogance and a lack of education/knowledge as to how dogs work.

He highlights some important issues, yet tackles them in a dangerous manner.

I think his show has created more problem dogs than it has helped. You can tell people to not try stuff at home until you a blue in your face, but people still will. More so when they read a book(s) telling you exactly what to do in order to train/rehabilitate your dog.

Anyone who takes what he says, and what he does, as factually correct, needs a damn good smack with a reality stick.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

I think he is oks is some respects. I had watched him deal a pulling dog in one episode and used the same method on Maddie, who had pulled on walks since puppyhood despite trying everything I could think of. I did it CM's way and she was fine after just one walk, mind, it took me an hour-ish to walk a mile  and copltely co-incidentally, her food agression improved dramtically from that day on too.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

fraid i don`t rate him , whatever floats ya boat albert


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Im sure he is a very nice person, he certainly comes across as one, and i do think he does care to a degree.
> 
> However, his methods are derived from ignorance, arrogance and a lack of education/knowledge as to how dogs work.
> 
> ...


i think thats very unfair!


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## ldr (Apr 19, 2011)

I've got to admit, I know very little about him. I've watched a couple of episodes of his show and I think it looks like some of what he does is very dangerous (e.g. encouraging inexperienced dog owners to confront an aggressive pitbull and back it into a corner!). On the other hand, as Ceearott mentioned, his method for stopping a dog pulling on its lead didn't look particularly cruel or dangerous to me. 

So it seems to me that perhaps it's a case of being able to to look at his advice with a critical eye and recognise what is sensible/safe and what's not. If you're able to do that you might get some good tips from him, but if you take everything he says as gospel you're likely to get hurt and/or hurt your dog.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)




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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I've never watched his show, no telly, & haven't bothered to dig him up online, just the methods he uses makes me disinterested


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

Jasper's Bloke said:


>


your wasted on here,have you considered a carear in comedy on tv!


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

To be honest, a lot of his methods I do not agree with but I do see how they can work, equally I also believe they have to be done by a certain type of person experienced in handling dogs in the same manner CM does - he does it calmly which is sure if your dog were aggressive any old person would find it pretty hard to remain calm!

Someone can't just watch his show and decide one day they are going to tackle their dogs aggression towards whatever it may be and pin the dog with no training on how to properly do it, how to compose themselves ect. ect.

News flash is humans are not dogs, dogs know we are not dogs. 

CM's techniques are about using behaviours dogs in a pack would use on other members of the pack. Pack leader training and alpha roll is very controvertial.

Whatever the case - I'd always suggest Victoria Stilwell over CM - positive reward based training will always be safer and my own personal choice!

- FYI: my dog has been pinned by a trainer before - THIS WAS THE START OF ALL HER BEHAVIOURAL ISSUES!! :cursing:

ETA - of course CM's training isn't just about aggression; but I thought I'd focus on that area of his training, a lot of his other training methods do seem good to me and I do use myself eg. how he will feed, then again these methods are not unique to him and are used by many other trainers.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

My aunt adores CM but doesn't follow him very well. She has 2 dogs(one staffXgsd bitch and a male boxerXalano mastiff) the bitch is extremely DA and the dog is very reactive when she kicks off and will bite her. Both have no training at all and pull on the lead. They live in a 2 bedroom flat with a massive park not 5 minutes away.

These dogs get no exercise(out round the block of flats 3 time s a day for the loo) mental or physical(they fight over toys), are fed bakers and allowed to do what they want. The bitch is now so attention seeking she will nip people and jump on them(then nip if she's moved) and is getting much more aggressive(she's gone for Tummel even though she's know him since he was 4 months old). My aunt and her family come up with every excuse under the sun as to why they don't walk their dogs(the dogs only get a proper walk when they're in Pittenweem and i visit because i ask them if they want to come out with me and Tummel and even then it's only about an hour as they make excuses to turn back) and don't want to get help because the dogs are fine apparently :cursing:

There are some things CM says/does that i agree with and some things i don't. I think it's critical for dogs to be exercised(their dogs are 4 and 7 so not ancient) and boundaries to be constantly in place for the basis of a happy dog and these dogs have neither(my aunt won't buy a muzzle for the bitch, no idea why as it would mean they could be walked).


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> I think he is oks is some respects. I had watched him deal a pulling dog in one episode and used the same method on Maddie, who had pulled on walks since puppyhood despite trying everything I could think of. I did it CM's way and she was fine after just one walk, mind, it took me an hour-ish to walk a mile  and copltely co-incidentally, her food agression improved dramtically from that day on too.


What does he say then about pulling on the lead please?
I've never even seen him. The only thing I know about him is he has shiny teeth


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Cesar who? lol ...............I love the guy,and i don't mind being the odd one out as i can have him all to myself.*


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i think thats very unfair!


Why?

You asked what people thought, so i told you.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> What does he say then about pulling on the lead please?
> I've never even seen him. The only thing I know about him is he has shiny teeth


yar he`s a great walking advert for arm and hammer


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Why?
> 
> You asked what people thought, so i told you.


you did,iand im just telling you what i think of your opinion,not slagging you off for commenting!


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

kat&molly said:


> What does he say then about pulling on the lead please?
> I've never even seen him. The only thing I know about him is he has shiny teeth


I walked Maddie on the lead for a mile (longest mile in my life, lol) Ieverytime she pulled I stood still, giving her no contact at all, no checking on the lead or anything else, waited for her to stand or sit still then set off walking again and stopping again every time she pulled. Its really ahrd to give no contact and remain calm lol! But I did it and it worked! Maddie pulls afor about 2 mins when we first get out the door, then is fine and no longer pulls.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> you did,iand im just telling you what i think of your opinion,not slagging you off for commenting!


Im intrigued as to what you think is unfair though.

I don't think it is wise to put faith and belief in any show/book/dvd etc on any subject personally, without doing some research off of ones own back. Question everything i say.

Far too many believe 100% in what they read and see, which just screams ignorance to me.

No one person knows it all, no one person is 100% correct. Although there are a few members on this forum who think otherwise about themselves?


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> I walked Maddie on the lead for a mile (longest mile in my life, lol) Ieverytime she pulled I stood still, giving her no contact at all, no checking on the lead or anything else, waited for her to stand or sit still then set off walking again and stopping again every time she pulled. Its really ahrd to give no contact and remain calm lol! But I did it and it worked! Maddie pulls afor about 2 mins when we first get out the door, then is fine and no longer pulls.


i always stop,and go the other way!stops pulling very quickly.....just dont get to your destination very fast!


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> I walked Maddie on the lead for a mile (longest mile in my life, lol) Ieverytime she pulled I stood still, giving her no contact at all, no checking on the lead or anything else, waited for her to stand or sit still then set off walking again and stopping again every time she pulled. Its really ahrd to give no contact and remain calm lol! But I did it and it worked! Maddie pulls afor about 2 mins when we first get out the door, then is fine and no longer pulls.


hmmm i should try this with axl he pulls like a mare night mare that is


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> i always stop,and go the other way!stops pulling very quickly.....just dont get to your destination very fast!


Tried that didint work, lol!

I think it worked on Maddie as she is very much my girl and thrives on attention from me, so the fact she got none must have made her think, lol! She will pull for everyone else, but not for me PMSL!!!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

yawn 






cos this hasn`t been done before, yeah?


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Im intrigued as to what you think is unfair though.
> 
> I don't think it is wise to put faith and belief in any show/book/dvd etc on any subject personally, without doing some research off of ones own back. Question everything i say.
> 
> ...


i think you said something about people who follow his methods needing a slap!,most sensible people will take bits and bobs of advice that suits their dog!,ceasar millan says this himself.....a lot of what he says and does in my opinion is spot on!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Ceearott said:


> I walked Maddie on the lead for a mile (longest mile in my life, lol) Ieverytime she pulled I stood still, giving her no contact at all, no checking on the lead or anything else, waited for her to stand or sit still then set off walking again and stopping again every time she pulled. Its really ahrd to give no contact and remain calm lol! But I did it and it worked! Maddie pulls afor about 2 mins when we first get out the door, then is fine and no longer pulls.


I did this with Bob, only turned & went back in the other direction, makes a 1 mile walk last about 3 miles & the neighbours think I'm loopy but it worked:thumbup:


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> yawn
> 
> cos this hasn`t been done before, yeah?


some of us havnt been on the forum that long,so it might interest us!

if you dont like it,dont read it!!!!very simple for you really!


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> I walked Maddie on the lead for a mile (longest mile in my life, lol) Ieverytime she pulled I stood still, giving her no contact at all, no checking on the lead or anything else, waited for her to stand or sit still then set off walking again and stopping again every time she pulled. Its really ahrd to give no contact and remain calm lol! But I did it and it worked! Maddie pulls afor about 2 mins when we first get out the door, then is fine and no longer pulls.


I've tried that- for months it didn't work[could be me?].
She is a Springer though, its not an excuse but it is a reason:lol:


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> some of us havnt been on the forum that long,so it might interest us!
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/176486-why-cesar-millan-yesterdays-dog-trainer.html
> 
> enjoy.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i think you said something about people who follow his methods needing a slap!,most sensible people will take bits and bobs of advice that suits their dog!,ceasar millan says this himself.....a lot of what he says and does in my opinion is spot on!


Yes i did say that, and i do think that.

Far too many people take his opinion, and his method as fact, and that is ignorant and dangerous. The same as doing it with any trainer/behaviourist tbh.

People should only take on board bits and bobs, but people who know no better, won't do that. They take it as the only way, and the best way, purely because he is famous, and purely because people are so heavily influenced and led by the media, that they can't see beyond it.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

I'm afraid i'm another who isn't a fan of him and _most_ of his techniques.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I have had different dogs over the years,and long before i ever saw Cesar.And i've never had to get in a behaviourist or trainer,and all my dogs have been spot on with their behaviour with the exception of my Kai that i've got now.Recall doesn't exist in his book.But i can live with that.My point? Yes i'm a fan of Cesars but so far not had to follow his methods.*


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Where is the popcorn? This will be an interesting thread to watch. lol

Watching his show, I do think Caesar Milan is a little weird and creepy.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


>


Definitely needed. lmao!!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

DogLover1981 said:


> Where is the popcorn? This will be an interesting thread to watch. lol
> 
> Watching his show, I do think Caesar Milan is a little weird and creepy.


There's a double helping on page one


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> seems some on here dont rate him as a trainer,ive always thought he was very good.i understand its tv,and not everything is as it seems,but i agree with his philosophys!


LOL I just saw the topic Cesar Millan on here and thought which unlucky fella has started a thread supporting his ideas.

I got grilled, burnt, torched and bbq'd for doing so a few months back hahaha


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> LOL I just saw the topic Cesar Millan on here and thought which unlucky fella has started a thread supporting his ideas.
> 
> I got grilled, burnt, torched and bbq'd for doing so a few months back hahaha


Just as long as you weren't spit roasted.......


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> Just as long as you weren't spit roasted.......


I truly lol'd.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Just as long as you weren't spit roasted.......


pictures ????hmy:hmy:hmy:


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> albert 1970 said:
> 
> 
> > some of us havnt been on the forum that long,so it might interest us!
> ...


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> some of us havnt been on the forum that long,so it might interest us!


http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/187143-people-opinions-cm.html

Dog training and Behaviour part of the board. Last post on the thread was 2 days ago.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Just as long as you weren't spit roasted.......


omg i thought you said somethin else for a second! :lol:


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

kat&molly said:


> I've tried that- for months it didn't work[could be me?].
> She is a Springer though, its not an excuse but it is a reason:lol:


Not you, springers like to be in front (it's what they're bred for!) and they don't walk on leads. Fact. (At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it!)

I quite like CM: I thinkits the mispronunciations, the accent, the way he grits his teeth to speak cos the effort of speaking English is obviously huge!

I defy anyone to go on Mexican TV and speak decent Spanish! (except me, obviously)


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> your wasted on here,have you considered a carear in comedy on tv!


I was on TV as part of a comedy double act, this is me on the left


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Who's the Daddy?


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Why albert_1970? WHY?! You better be bringing the popcorn round to mine then!

xxx


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## DAVIDnCASS (Jul 19, 2011)

When people see or hear the word 'dominant' they think of over-powering with force or violence...this is not the case. If the dog gets everything it needs from you, on your terms, then you are always in control of the situation, therefore you take up the dominant position automatically.

They look to you for food, exercise and rules to live in YOUR home(no jumping up, no herding the kids, no food aggression, etc.)

I took this following quote from a site which is warning against Cesar's methods:

"Through a stroke of evolutionary luck, we are blessed with opposable thumbs, through which we have priority access and total control of everything that our dogs want, not to mention more sophisticated brains, which allow us to plan ahead.

By maintaining control everything the dog wants, including food, access and attention, and not giving them away for free or on demand, it is not necessary to get into power struggles with our dogs. We are already 'dominant'."

This to me is the very point that Cesar preaches, exercise, discipline and affection, in that order will get the results. The walk is exercise. Walking on a lead without pulling is discipline. Food is affection.

Before anyone roasts me for daring to defend the man, I have an open mind and will use all the tools and tricks and techniques available to me. I grew up in multiple dog household with working gun dogs and was taught to 'praise and reward' along with never giving in to a stubborn, head strong dog.

My Dad taught me to be calm and patient.

He never beat the dogs, never showed them aggression, but they knew he was in charge. They all ate together in the same room, they all walked on a lead without dragging us down the street and they never jumped up on visitors.

I now use those same methods and am the proud owner of 2 very happy, very loved dogs!

Dominance doesn't mean bullying them!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> ClaireandDaisy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes but the guy in that video is quite the joey.
> ...


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> i think you said something about people who follow his methods needing a slap!,most sensible people will take bits and bobs of advice that suits their dog!,ceasar millan says this himself.....a lot of what he says and does in my opinion is spot on!


ya right albert most on here no nowt just think they do


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## Paganman (Jul 29, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> some of us havnt been on the forum that long,so it might interest us!
> 
> if you dont like it,dont read it!!!!very simple for you really!


Your gagging for a red blob ain't ya


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Like I said on the other VERY recent thread about him, no one has actually known a dog he has worked with, so do not know what happened before or after the 30 min TV show.

Everyone has an idea surrounding what "training" is "right". For years the dominance theory held, then suddenly there was a new way, and most switched.

Personally I think it is all the same kinda thing really, just labelled differently. I mean you say the word "dominance" and most recoil in horror...... but what does it actually mean? I need my dog to realise I am his leader, what I say goes, sorry you do not get to choose, that is because I am human, and above my dog in the animal kingdom..... so am I not dominant over my dog? When dominance means I lead him, show him right from wrong, tell him what is acceptable and what is not, give him guidance?

As with everything in life you need to find methods that suit you and your particular dog, and stick to em


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

5rivers79 said:


> ClaireandDaisy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes but the guy in that video is quite the joey.
> ...


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

is this thread gonna turn to a blood bath yet  :smilewinkgrin:


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

axl said:


> is this thread gonna turn to a blood bath yet  :smilewinkgrin:


Yes, it could very well do so  it normally does


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> yawn
> 
> cos this hasn`t been done before, yeah?


*Yes it has been done before,but if you don't like the subject don't bother reading it.Some of us likje to read different peoples point of veiw,old and new members.*


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

i do like a good old fashioned debate you know


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## Honey Bee (Mar 29, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> I walked Maddie on the lead for a mile (longest mile in my life, lol) Ieverytime she pulled I stood still, giving her no contact at all, no checking on the lead or anything else, waited for her to stand or sit still then set off walking again and stopping again every time she pulled. Its really ahrd to give no contact and remain calm lol! But I did it and it worked! Maddie pulls afor about 2 mins when we first get out the door, then is fine and no longer pulls.


I read you had done this on another thread a few months ago and tried it with Honey, mainly in connection with her traffic phobia and it really worked because I stopped being tense and winding her up more. I still do it now if she gets stressed by something large or very noisy. Being calm and non reactive and not pulling them back is an excellent training method.

I didn't realise it had anything to do with Cesar Milan until now because I rarely watch his shows as I don't have Sky and you didn't say on the previous thread but knowing this I now have to admit that this part of his training does work. This is very interesting as I also have to do a bit of a climb down and admit that maybe not everything he does is bad.

Having said this I still do not agree with the vast majority of what he does like the dominance, kicking and alpha rolling. This is not dog whispering and because he uses these methods, along with certain types of collar that I find abhorant, I cannot call him one.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Yes it has been done before,but if you don't like the subject don't bother reading it.Some of us likje to read different peoples point of veiw,old and new members.*


Hostile or what? I`ll read what I want, dear, and say what I want. CM fans are so ... dogmatic. :smilewinkgrin:


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Fair enough then...
linky one: 
http://thehappiestdog.blogspot.com/2008/01/its-about-time-cesar-millan-is-wrong.htmlote:

quote: 
From the article (please do click the link and read the whole thing!)
Putting your dog in his place
Cesar's way: Dogs assume either a dominant or submissive role in their "pack." If he doesn't get off the couch when you ask him to, it's your dog's way of telling you that he's dominant and you're submissive.
Why he's way off: The notion of a rigid pack hierarchy with fixed roles between humans and dogs is largely a myth. Dogs are most likely to do what we humans ask when they clearly understand what we want - not as a sign of submission. Patricia McConnell explains: "So many issues - sitting on the couch, coming when called - have nothing to do with social status, any more than how you do on a math exam reflects your social status. A dog who doesn't sit when you ask him to sit - in most cases - simply doesn't understand what you want."
The truth: In groups of canines, roles among individual members are both fluid and give-and-take.

Treating fear with fear
Cesar's way: You can "cure" a dog's fear by overwhelming him with the very stimulus that terrifies him.
Why he's way off: Imagine treating a human's acrophobia by dangling him over the edge of a skyscraper. This technique, called "flooding," actually leads to further psychological trauma in the form of learned helplessness: An animal learns that resistance is futile - his spirit is broken and he ceases to assert himself.
Trish King, Director of the Animal Behavior & Training Department at the Marin Humane Society observes: "In some of his shows, Cesar tells the owner how 'calm and submissive' a dog is, when to me, the dog looks shut down and fearful."
The truth: It may take weeks or months for your dog to truly overcome deep-rooted fear - and setbacks along the way are to be expected.

Snapping the leash or rolling the dog
Cesar's way: Physical corrections - such as snapping a dog's leash or forcefully rolling him onto his back - are an effective way to garner good behavior.
Why he's way off: Physical corrections add to your dog's stress rather than offer instructive information. You may temporarily stun your dog into obedience in the short run, but in the long run, the use of physical force increases aggression and, ultimately, your behavioral problems.
"You can lead with force, like Saddam Hussein, or you can be a benevolent leader to your dog by choosing a style more like Gandhi," says Tamar Geller, trainer to Oprah Winfrey's dogs and author of The Loved Dog. "Your approach will determine the type of relationship you have - and whether your dog acts out of intimidation... or respect."
The truth: Rewarding for the behavior you do want, as opposed to punishing for any number of behaviors you don't want, clearly communicates to your dog what's expected and is far more likely to generate confident, appropriate behavior.
Posted by The Happiest Dog on the Block! at 10:51 AM


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

linky two
Why Cesar Millan The Dog Whisperers Approach Is Like Yelling At A Crying Baby « The Spirit Dog

Cesar Millan The Dog Whisperer, only knows how to dominate a dog.

I had originally planned never to criticize Cesar, regardless of how often he gets it wrong. Awhile ago I was asked by an advertising company who was handling his latest video release, to write a review about it. I was very generous with that review, even after I was shaking my head in disbelief after watching him chase yet another nervous dog around, this dog being a nervous German Shepherd in the owners back yard. My reason for this is, he has a rather large soap box to stand on and too many people follow his well meaning but inaccurate advice.

In the below National Geographic video link Mr. Millan, talks about how these types of dogs (aggressive dogs) put him on the map and that he loves working with them.

First off the dog in his video is not an aggressive dog, this is just another fear aggressive or nervous dog. And for him to continually describe this type of dog behavior as aggressive, not only shows how little he has learned in his years with animals. But can possibly be doing irreparable harm to the estimated lifespan of that dog, especially if the owners think they have an aggressive dog on their hands. Not to mention the fact that he constantly uses the wrong approach while training these aggressive dogs. For a truly aggressive dog, see this video : Aggressive Dog Bite Video

Quite frankly dogs that are truly aggressive are not only reasonably rare, they happen to be rather simple to deal with. Unlike their more nervous brothers and sisters who require a lot of love, patience and confidence building, such as the dog that you will see in his video.

Link to video

Dog Whisperer | Doggie Jekyll & Hyde | National Geographic Channel


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

and the best one...

BEYOND CESAR MILLAN - Home

If you read nothing else, read this site. 

Bringing together people who oppose cruel, violent or bullying methods of training or rehabilitating dogs; also those who question or challenge pack leadership, dominance theory, dog-as-wolf and other outdated ideas.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

C&D can I ask, having read your posts with interest, how would you stop a 27kg dog, 18 months ish, from jumping up, and biting your arms, causing serious bruising, as IMO ignoring this unwanted behaviour is NOT an option, people were being injured. Also hoe do you let a dog know the behaviour it is displaying is inappropriate if "no" or "ah ah" can not be used?

I am all for positive methods, and use them, just wonder how they work with the more challenging dogs, or for every single behaviour.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> C&D can I ask, having read your posts with interest, how would you stop a 27kg dog, 18 months ish, from jumping up, and biting your arms, causing serious bruising, as IMO ignoring this unwanted behaviour is NOT an option, people were being injured. Also hoe do you let a dog know the behaviour it is displaying is inappropriate if "no" or "ah ah" can not be used?
> 
> I am all for positive methods, and use them, just wonder how they work with the more challenging dogs, or for every single behaviour.


I would:

1) Work on impulse control, e.g. teaching a 'Place' or 'Go To Mat' cue, have the dog sit or preferably lie down, and you build up the distractions, e.g walking away from him, walking in a circle, jogging, running around him, throwing a ball etc. This, along with other games, teaches a dog to control his stress levels.

2) When the dog starts the behaviour, defuse the situation by removing him or you immediately. No fuss, no shouting, prodding or even a 'No', even just saying this can be a reinforcement for his behaviour. If it is really bad, keep a drag line on him.

The key is to be proactive and work to stop the behaviour occurring in the first place, not wait for it to happen THEN punish. This often just suppresses behaviour.

And this is what is bad about Cesar's training techniques, IMO. He deals with behaviours in isolation, not understanding the underlying issue. He is reactive instead of proactive.

His philosophies, well: 
Are dogs pack animals? Not really.

Does his techniques imitate those seen in the wild from canine mothers? No. Canines use more complex forms of communication that we can't even hope to be able to use, before they use physical communication on one another. Olfactory, visual, acoustic- THEN tactile.

Do canines compete for rank or status? No, unless put in an artificial, stressful situation, like wild animals in captivity.

Do canines form dominance relationships? Hardly. Their interactions are not based on dominance and submission, but deference, where mutual respect is key. The 'belly up' display is very rare in the wild- deferent positions of approaching with ears held back, low body carriage, lip licking, low wagging tail, then muzzle-licking the elder canid are how social relationships are maintained primarily. This is mutual respect, not one-sided; the elder canine is putting trust in the one showing deference by allowing it so close, underneath his/her neck- the deferent canine is in prime position to kill. hmy:

Does lead checking reduce frustration, 'snap the dog out of it', or suppress behaviours and builds stress physiologically? The latter. A study was carried out whereby most dogs with aggression issues were found to have neck injuries, and checking has been found to produce the exactly same neck injuries, indicating that aggression is often dealt with by checking, and doesn't 'go away'.

A small bit of research can demonstrate clearly what is the problem with Cesar's philosophies and methods.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> seems some on here dont rate him as a trainer,ive always thought he was very good.i understand its tv,and not everything is as it seems,but i agree with his philosophys!


Yep! understand he is doing very well in schools!

Teaching the kids albout dental decay and encouraging them to brush every day!


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> 5rivers79 said:
> 
> 
> > Don`t really get your point? The OP said there had been no recent discussion of CM. I pointed out a recent thread. Ergo.....
> ...


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Could someone point out where they saw Cesar work on the pulling problem? That method is exactly the opposite of what I thought he would do, to be honest. I would be expecting lead corrections when the dog went in front. 

I wonder if its new. I saw a video of him working to desensitise a dog the other day using food. That was surprising! 

He is changing...but just not quick enough


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Could someone point out where they saw Cesar work on the pulling problem? That method is exactly the opposite of what I thought he would do, to be honest. I would be expecting lead corrections when the dog went in front.
> 
> I wonder if its new. I saw a video of him working to desensitise a dog the other day using food. That was surprising!
> 
> He is changing...but just not quick enough


Ya know what! I saw summat about CM I liked too,  can't for the life ofme remember what it was!

 just remembered! it were his shirt!


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

i can honestly say ive learnt a lot watching cm...he really gets you thinking about energy you have and the dog.....top man imo!


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

I don't rate him, I much prefer to watch Victoria Stillwell. I am more for praise and reward good behaviour and ignore the bad.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> i can honestly say ive learnt a lot watching cm...he really gets you thinking about energy you have and the dog.....top man imo!


There are a few things he says that are good advice, e.g. staying calm in the face of danger. However, it just so happens he has often created the unnecessary danger in the first place 

Other things like keeping the lead loose- again, good advice. Tension on the lead releases stress eliciting hormones in the brain, makes a dog more frustrated and therefore more likely to cause a reaction. However, he puts this on the abstract and incorrect background of 'pack dynamics' or 'pack structure'.

So, he does have some good advice. But I would urge you to spend some time reading the other side of the argument too, the scientific side.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Agree with his staying calm and not reacting ourselves and the loose lead really works when I see another dog or a bike when out with Flynn  I have always thought he was good although some things I don't agree with - just as with any trainer. 

Over the past two months I have started using clicker training and positive reinforcement with Flynn and he is doing wonderfully  I still don't let him do what he wants when out like stopping and sniffing all the time and he doesn't go out if he is at all excited, though he has learned this well and never gets excited now but on the whole he is a very calm boy even when he see's another dog providing I am clicking and treating as we pass.

I think the clicker has been a wonderful tool and Flynn is very responsive to it that now I wouldn't use any other method.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> There are a few things he says that are good advice, e.g. staying calm in the face of danger. However, it just so happens he has often created the unnecessary danger in the first place
> 
> Other things like keeping the lead loose- again, good advice. Tension on the lead releases stress eliciting hormones in the brain, makes a dog more frustrated and therefore more likely to cause a reaction. However, he puts this on the abstract and incorrect background of 'pack dynamics' or 'pack structure'.
> 
> So, he does have some good advice. But I would urge you to spend some time reading the other side of the argument too, the scientific side.


youve posted some great stuff on this thread,very thought provoking!.i dont take everything he says or does as gospel,and the pack thing...im not sure about.......but the best thing he talks about,is our energy rubbing off on our dogs......that is priceless advice.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> youve posted some great stuff on this thread,very thought provoking!.i dont take everything he says or does as gospel,and the pack thing...im not sure about.......but the best thing he talks about,is our energy rubbing off on our dogs......that is priceless advice.


I have trouble with the word 'energy' to be honest, when it comes to dogs at least, because it's vague and there are other explanations.

A dog's nose is 1,000,000 times better than ours; they can pick up the slightest drop of sweat on our bodies. So, energy? Hmmm, not so sure. I see it as a dog's ability to be able to 'smell stress', which I think is far less mystical but just as amazing :smilewinkgrin:


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> I have trouble with the word 'energy' to be honest, when it comes to dogs at least, because it's vague and there are other explanations.
> 
> A dog's nose is 1,000,000 times better than ours; they can pick up the slightest drop of sweat on our bodies. So, energy? Hmmm, not so sure. I see it as a dog's ability to be able to 'smell stress', which I think is far less mystical but just as amazing :smilewinkgrin:[/QUOTE
> 
> disagree with you there,you may be right,but its not how i see it....im convinced dogs read our energy,and behave accordingly!


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I think my dog reads my thoughts.. Honestly.

Me: "I hope he doesn't poop tonight"

Duke: "RIGHT! That'll show her, I'm gonna sh!t all in her kitchen then eat it so my breath smells lovely for a morning kiss"

Me: "Aww he looks so lovely sleeping"

Duke: "Oh crap she's spotted me, I best go into the kitchen to do some counter surfing"


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Agree with the thought thing - mine seem to know what i'm going to do before i've said or started doing it. Flynn def knows when i'm going to take him out, no lead, no coat, not getting the treat bagI can be sitting in the arm chair just thinking about it and he seems to know what's going on. I say Flynn especially, as he and I are closer than I am with any of the other's.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Our bodies react in characteristic ways when we do repetitive activities- body language, scent, 'energy' if you must call it that. It's simply classical conditioning.

Dogs, after approximately 20,000 years of convergent evolution with humans can read our body language and other nuances excellently. 

So, again, I agree with the above, but see it as down to their abilities to see and smell things in fine detail, rather than a mystical energy, mind-reading ability. 

However, this in no way detracts from how amazing dogs are.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> seems some on here dont rate him as a trainer,ive always thought he was very good.i understand its tv,and not everything is as it seems,but i agree with his philosophys!


What philosophies? Bullying a dog into submission? Making a fearful dog almost pee himself as he gradually shuts down? Or the pack leader rubbish that has been discredited for decades?



albert 1970 said:


> i think thats very unfair!


I think what Nonnie said was very fair. The man has only one thing in his favour as far as I am concerned, and that is his telling people that dogs need to be walked. But that is hardly a new idea, is it?



pika said:


> To be honest, a lot of his methods I do not agree with but I do see how they can work, equally I also believe they have to be done by a certain type of person experienced in handling dogs in the same manner CM does - he does it calmly which is sure if your dog were aggressive any old person would find it pretty hard to remain calm!
> 
> Someone can't just watch his show and decide one day they are going to tackle their dogs aggression towards whatever it may be and pin the dog with no training on how to properly do it, how to compose themselves ect. ect.
> 
> ...


You are quite right - dogs know we are not dogs, they do not think of us as part of their pack and they do not live in heirarchical packs anyway. The person who came up with this gibberish years ago has stated many, many times that he was wrong, but no one is listening to that part.



Ceearott said:


> I walked Maddie on the lead for a mile (longest mile in my life, lol) Ieverytime she pulled I stood still, giving her no contact at all, no checking on the lead or anything else, waited for her to stand or sit still then set off walking again and stopping again every time she pulled. Its really ahrd to give no contact and remain calm lol! But I did it and it worked! Maddie pulls afor about 2 mins when we first get out the door, then is fine and no longer pulls.


But that is not Millan's method is it? It is, like anything good he says, copied from others. It is something I was taught to do with a pulling dog 20 years ago, before anyone had ever heard of Cesar Millan.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

I still agree with CMs philosophy on exercise, but not much else. I used to be a huge fan of the show, but as I became more educated about positive reinforcement and reward training, I found watching the show made me feel quite uncomfortable. 

[youtube_browser]RFCGtatpCwI[/youtube_browser]


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

Ok so I have seen a few threads on CM and have left them alone as they usually turn into a forum blood bath, with anyone supporting CM in anyway being hunted down by an angry mob and burned at the stake  

But I'm feeling brave so here goes, I have to admit to being somewhat of a fan *runs and hides*
However, before I get told off  I would never lay a finger on my puppy, nor would I force her to do anything she was was scared of doing. But I do think a lot of his advice makes perfect sense, for instance, one of his sayings is no touch, no talk, no eye contact, basically meaning when you (or anyone else) enters the room your dog is in ignore it, until it is calm and then give affection etc. And again the whole 'energy, body language' thing, it works for me I can see with my own eyes how kiva reacts to different people with different 'energy'.

Yes this is probably all common sense and has been said for many years but the fact that it is now widely available info to the masses because of some dude with shiny teeth on the tv, i think is a good thing. As i said, I am not in the habit of 'dominance' training my gsd, she is taught that if she does things I want her to do she gets treats, cuddles and lots of 'good girly' in a stupid squeaky voice! And I generally ignore or remove her or myself fron unwanted behaviour. But I do also use some of CM's theories, and for me they seem to work. please dont red blob me  ha ha


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> I still agree with CMs philosophy on exercise, but not much else. I used to be a huge fan of the show, but as I became more educated about positive reinforcement and reward training, I found watching the show made me feel quite uncomfortable.
> 
> [youtube_browser]RFCGtatpCwI[/youtube_browser]


How many episodes did the maker of that video have to go through to make that youtube clip? Wouldnt it be better to make a video on positive reinforcement??

That video is a waste of time.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> How many episodes did the make or that video have to go through to make that youtube clip? Wouldnt it be better to make a video on positive reinforcement??
> 
> That video is a waste of time.


Sorry I cannot answer your questions because I didn't make the video myself. I disagree that it is a waste of time, if it makes one person think twice about kicking their dog in a particularly painful and vulnerable part of it's body then I'm happy.

Have you ever been kicked in a kidney, or your liver or spleen? I have when doing full contact martial arts and it is extremely painful, not just at the initial time of the impact but for weeks afterwards. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy never mind my best friend, and I'd rather go through child birth again than that pain.

Why would you condone doing that to a dog?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> Sorry I cannot answer your questions because I didn't make the video myself. I disagree that it is a waste of time, if it makes one person think twice about kicking their dog in a particularly painful and vulnerable part of it's body then I'm happy.
> 
> Have you ever been kicked in a kidney, or your liver or spleen? I have when doing full contact martial arts and it is extremely painful, not just at the initial time of the impact but for weeks afterwards. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy never mind my best friend, and I'd rather go through child birth again than that pain.
> 
> Why would you condone doing that to a dog?


Yes iv been kicked, punched and knee'd during thai boxing. However i do not believe CM is using a front, side or roundhouse kick to these dogs with kicks designed to main that particular limb.

What he is doing is giving the dog a firm touch in order to snap them out of whatever they are focusing on. Iv tapped Samson in the exact same place with my finger when he is over excited and believe me i wouldnt do anythin to hurt him. The slightest of touches in that area snapped him out of his excitement and brought his attention to me when calling him would not.

Yeh i could have tried using a treat but at the time i wasnt carrying one with me.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Yes iv been kicked, punched and knee'd during thai boxing. However i do not believe CM is using a front, side or roundhouse kick to these dogs with kicks designed to main that particular limb.
> 
> What he is doing is giving the dog a firm touch in order to snap them out of whatever they are focusing on. Iv tapped Samson in the exact same place with my finger when he is over excited and believe me i wouldnt do anythin to hurt him. The slightest of touches in that area snapped him out of his excitement and brought his attention to me when calling him would not.
> 
> Yeh i could have tried using a treat but at the time i wasnt carrying one with me.


There is a difference between a tap and a kick, CM doesn't use a slightest touch he gives them a hard kick. Why would you condone kicking a dog? How would you feel if someone kicked Sammy?


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

i dont think CM is all bad, i use some of his training techniques and some i adapt if i dont quite agree with them. I also like victoria and her techniques but her voice does my head in


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

In that video, there is loads of evidence that those dogs are hurting after Millan's kicks. You have squeals, growls, and most of all, immediate body postures that show the dogs are anxious around him. I lose count of how many calming signals there are in that video towards Millan.

It's all suppression techniques, and the fact that he has to continuously apply them, shows that they do not 'work' like the are supposed to.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

The first dog in the video offers a great example of showing Millan calming signals after his 'touch'. Around 2 minutes 10, that clip and the next one show how easily this method can make a dog react (not 'calm and submissive' ). And the clip with the Great Danes show how useless the kicks can be.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Roobster2010 said:


> Well, if you type Cesar Milan into search, you'll find umpteen *done to death* threads all about him.


It's just a crying shame the man himself isn't!:wink:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I cannot understand people who say that they like him, they are a fan but "they wouldn't do that to their own dog". Either his "methods" are too violent to use or they are not and just because he throws in the odd bit of positive advice that he has heard somewhere, doesn't make him any less of an animal abuser.

I think it is an insult to all dog owners and all dogs everywhere that this bully is broadcast on tv for every inexperienced dog owner to follow, thus causing themselves and their dogs no end of problems.


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## mamf (Jun 26, 2011)

that kicking video is awful! When I was younger and not very experienced with dogs I bought a couple of his books, but they were stuffed with mysticism, which didn't go down very well with a Dr of chemistry in the house (OH) We also bought a positive training manual at the same time, three dogs later only one of those books ever really got used. 

I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion on the fella, but he could give 95% brilliant advice and I still wouldn't want to increase his revenue or success given that the other 5% is kick your dog!

It strikes me that there is little management of the dogs individual idiosyncrasies just a barrage of corrections. 

Just my opinion though.


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## Mrs White (Jul 18, 2011)

I read a book or two of his years ago and he just seemed to be wanting celebrity status to me; and his chosen route was dogs and his supposed innate ability with them. I got the feeling that if he wasn't going to become an Oprah-type off the back of his work with dogs, he'd get there another way. The dogs were merely a vehicle for him to attain fame.:cursing:

A woman here had watched his programme and was keen to put her 10 lb lap dog in a room with my DA Malamute to "tranquilize" my dog's aggressive tendencies, as she had learned this happens thanks to her dog's calming personality.hmy:

Having said that, he does lay it on thick about hours and hours of exercise and I like that message


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Mrs White said:


> Having said that, he does lay it on thick about hours and hours of exercise and I like that message


And having said that, he isn't really telling you anything more than someone with an ounce of common sense doesnt already know.

I've said this once before and I'll say it again; I'd like to see him behave this way with a Dog of similar breeding to ours.

He woudn't be kicking another dog because I doubt very much he'd have a leg to stand on!:wink:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Zaros said:


> And having said that, he isn't really telling you anything more than someone with an ounce of common sense doesnt already know.
> 
> I've said this once before and I'll say it again; I'd like to see him behave this way with a Dog of similar breeding to ours.
> 
> He woudn't be kicking another dog because I doubt very much he'd have a leg to stand on!:wink:


I like that! And oh, so true. Your Sars will not think he is the pack leader, but a predator who needs sorting!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

I didn't really have an opinion either way before (each to their own and all that), but I just watched the kicking video and I am absolutely appalled. Most of the time, he seems to be correcting behaviour that is perfectly normal and not aggressive in any way. If anything, he seems to make the situations worse.

Quite frankly, I don't care if those clips make up only a small percentage of what he does: routinely kicking your dog, just because you can and want to make yourself feel bigger is absolutely awful.

I hope the Dane took a good chunk out of him.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I have to laugh at this he kicks dogs,anyone would think he's sticking the boot in.:lol:*


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Has anyone tried kicking something (obvious not a dog) in the way CM does (mostly)- crossing one leg behind the other? VERY hard to kick something with any sort of force that way.... more of an OI stop fixating on that.

However sometimes it seems his timing is way off and all he is teaching is that when a dog is in sight I get kicked- not ideal.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Fair enough then...
> Treating fear with fear
> Why he's way off: Imagine treating a human's acrophobia by dangling him over the edge of a skyscraper. This technique, called "flooding," actually leads to further psychological trauma in the form of learned helplessness: An animal learns that resistance is futile - his spirit is broken and he ceases to assert himself.


Going back a few pages, but I beg to differ on that point. I have had 2 phobias and use the flooding method to overcome them both. One (believe it or not) was a fear of dogs, and at the time, it was a hair's breadth of developing into agrophobia (sp? fear of large, open spaces/outside). I overcame that one by _purposefully _ encountering dogs - first those who I knew wouldn't harm me, then later those that I was less sure about, somtimes with family support, sometimes without. I was just about getting over it when we started visiting kennels for our own dog, but was still nervous whenever Max growled or barked.

The other phobia is a fear of falling, especially down escalators/stairs on a double decker bus/in old castles. I don't fight this fear every day so it's persisted far longer than my dog phobia.

So the flooding method does work - at least for us.

Besides, how exactly would you cure a dog that's afraid of humans? Make sure they never encounter humans again? Or "flood" them by bringing them into the house/garden (even if you ignore them and let them do their own thing, surely you are still technically "flooding" them, just by being there). Over time the dog learns that you're not a threat and will come closer, but you're still there in the background - the dog cannot _totally _escape from you.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> Going back a few pages, but I beg to differ on that point. I have had 2 phobias and use the flooding method to overcome them both. One (believe it or not) was a fear of dogs, and at the time, it was a hair's breadth of developing into agrophobia (sp? fear of large, open spaces/outside). I overcame that one by _purposefully _ encountering dogs - first those who I knew wouldn't harm me, then later those that I was less sure about, somtimes with family support, sometimes without. I was just about getting over it when we started visiting kennels for our own dog, but was still nervous whenever Max growled or barked.
> 
> The other phobia is a fear of falling, especially down escalators/stairs on a double decker bus/in old castles. I don't fight this fear every day so it's persisted far longer than my dog phobia.
> 
> ...


There is a slight difference between what you are describing (which is a gradual introduction of something scary) and then diving in at the deep end and "dangling over the edge of a sky scraper". Your method seems sensible to reduce fear. The sky scraper way doesn't.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> There is a slight difference between what you are describing (which is a gradual introduction of something scary) and then diving in at the deep end and "dangling over the edge of a sky scraper". Your method seems sensible to reduce fear. The sky scraper way doesn't.


It's still the same thing with the same outcome - in order to get over a fear, you _have _to face it, whether you use the "gentle introduction" method or the skyscraper method. In the mind of a phobic, believe me, there's no difference at all. The scary thing is still within sight.

Another example. Milly had a fear of stairs for a while. Tough one because I live in an upstairs flat and she was toilet training at the time. She HAD to face her fear multiple times a day and if I couldn't get her through it, I simply could not have kept her. Luckily she's fine now. Surely that's "flooding" her, and it worked.

Anyway, back on topic, IMHO whether you call yourself pack leader or dog trainer/handler, you are still asserting control over the dog. Same outcome, different methods. I don't necessarily agree with all of CM's methods, but some do make sense to me. :smilewinkgrin:


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> It's still the same thing with the same outcome - in order to get over a fear, you _have _to face it, whether you use the "gentle introduction" method or the skyscraper method. In the mind of a phobic, believe me, there's no difference at all. The scary thing is still within sight.
> 
> Another example. Milly had a fear of stairs for a while. Tough one because I live in an upstairs flat and she was toilet training at the time. She HAD to face her fear multiple times a day and if I couldn't get her through it, I simply could not have kept her. Luckily she's fine now. Surely that's "flooding" her, and it worked.
> 
> Anyway, back on topic, IMHO whether you call yourself pack leader or dog trainer/handler, you are still asserting control over the dog. Same outcome, different methods.


I'd still say there is a massive difference between a gentle approach and the sledgehammer method. But maybe that's just splitting hairs.

As to controlling your dog: I don't want to control my dog because I've bullied him into submission but because we have a relationship of mutual respect. That is maybe the harder way in the beginning but much more fruitful in the end.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> Going back a few pages, but I beg to differ on that point. I have had 2 phobias and use the flooding method to overcome them both. One (believe it or not) was a fear of dogs, and at the time, it was a hair's breadth of developing into agrophobia (sp? fear of large, open spaces/outside). I overcame that one by _purposefully _ encountering dogs - first those who I knew wouldn't harm me, then later those that I was less sure about, somtimes with family support, sometimes without. I was just about getting over it when we started visiting kennels for our own dog, but was still nervous whenever Max growled or barked.
> 
> The other phobia is a fear of falling, especially down escalators/stairs on a double decker bus/in old castles. I don't fight this fear every day so it's persisted far longer than my dog phobia.
> 
> ...


We have also had this argument before. Facing your fears as a reasoning human being, who _wants_ to get over the fear, knows that the scary thing is going to end, and even knowing that you can stop it any time you like and you can reason that it is really nothing to be afraid of, is very far removed from forcing a dog into a scary situation. The dog does not know that it is an irrational fear, he does not know that it will end, he does not want to get over his fear, and he cannot back out if he wants to. Dogs are not humans in furry overcoats, and cannot expect to think the same as us.



LinznMilly said:


> It's still the same thing with the same outcome - in order to get over a fear, you _have _to face it, whether you use the "gentle introduction" method or the skyscraper method. In the mind of a phobic, believe me, there's no difference at all. The scary thing is still within sight.
> 
> Another example. Milly had a fear of stairs for a while. Tough one because I live in an upstairs flat and she was toilet training at the time. She HAD to face her fear multiple times a day and if I couldn't get her through it, I simply could not have kept her. Luckily she's fine now. Surely that's "flooding" her, and it worked.
> 
> Anyway, back on topic, IMHO whether you call yourself pack leader or dog trainer/handler, you are still asserting control over the dog. Same outcome, different methods. I don't necessarily agree with all of CM's methods, but some do make sense to me. :smilewinkgrin:


I have seen VS get a dog over his fear of stairs by simply taking a long time about it and putting high value treats on the stairs. She had him running up and down the stairs quite happily at the end, but of course there was no drama, no "look what I can do, aren't I clever?"



terencesmum said:


> I'd still say there is a massive difference between a gentle approach and the sledgehammer method. But maybe that's just splitting hairs.
> 
> As to controlling your dog: I don't want to control my dog because I've bullied him into submission but because we have a relationship of mutual respect. That is maybe the harder way in the beginning but much more fruitful in the end.


I agree. My dogs will do almost anything for me because they want to. I say almost anything, because they are not perfectly trained, but I want them to have character, not submit because they are afraid to do anything else.

I have seen this sadist start hitting a dog who was actually only curious about him. If you treated a dog the way he does, you would be charged with animal abuse and yet there he is, mug on the telly, making millions doing the same thing. And no, that is not jealousy. Anyone who is talented is entitled to make millions, but you may as well start televising bull fighting and calling it entertainment.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> We have also had this argument before. Facing your fears as a reasoning human being, who _wants_ to get over the fear, knows that the scary thing is going to end, and even knowing that you can stop it any time you like and you can reason that it is really nothing to be afraid of, is very far removed from forcing a dog into a scary situation. The dog does not know that it is an irrational fear, he does not know that it will end, he does not want to get over his fear, and he cannot back out if he wants to. Dogs are not humans in furry overcoats, and cannot expect to think the same as us.
> 
> I have seen VS get a dog over his fear of stairs by simply taking a long time about it and putting high value treats on the stairs. She had him running up and down the stairs quite happily at the end, but of course there was no drama, no "look what I can do, aren't I clever?"
> 
> ...


*I hardly think you can compare what Cesar does for does to bull fighting.He saves many dogs from being PTS where others have given up on them.He does a lot for the welfare of dogs.*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I hardly think you can compare what Cesar does for does to bull fighting.He saves many dogs from being PTS where others have given up on them.He does a lot for the welfare of dogs.*


I think it is a good comparison, Janice. It is all drama at the expense of the animals. I keep hearing about how he has saved dogs from being pts, but as far as I can see we only have the producers' word for it.

Yes, I know he did an awful lot for the refugee dogs of the New Orleans hurricane, and good for him, but that does not cancel out the rest of it.

I know someone who supposedly rescues animals, but I have realised over the years that she does it to make herself look important, not for the sake of the animals.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

In this and many other threads I see lots of people saying that although they don't agree with all of his methods, some of them do make sense. Is this such a surprise? A very large percentage of dog training/behaviour is just common sense, for example, he is often credited with extolling the benefits of regular exercise, exercise that uses up excess energy that would otherwise go into undesirable behaviours, exercise that usually involves socialisation with other dogs, with people and the environment and so on. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if you don't provide a release such as this then you are going to run into problems.

Yes a lot of what he says makes sense, but there is still the fact that even with these pearls of common sense, his explanation and reasoning for them is still wrong. A dog does not barge past you to get out the door first because they want to control and dominate you, or because they feel that they have to be the leader, he barges past because he is more excited about going out than he is thinking about sitting nicely.

This is a TV programme, nothing more, if you want sit on the sofa and be entertained then go ahead and watch it. If you want to train a dog however then look elsewhere.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

im not a great fan of his kick method...however id call it more of a nudge than a kick!....also people have to remember hes going to out of control dogs,that maybe would be pts without his intervention.

also after the rows about certain breeds living together,he has loads of pitbulls living together in harmony......he knows his stuff!!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> im not a great fan of his kick method...however id call it more of a nudge than a kick!....also people have to remember hes going to out of control dogs,that maybe would be pts without his intervention.
> 
> also after the rows about certain breeds living together,he has loads of pitbulls living together in harmony......*he knows his stuff!!![/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> We have also had this argument before. Facing your fears as a reasoning human being, who _wants_ to get over the fear, knows that the scary thing is going to end, and even knowing that you can stop it any time you like and you can reason that it is really nothing to be afraid of, is very far removed from forcing a dog into a scary situation. The dog does not know that it is an irrational fear, he does not know that it will end, he does not want to get over his fear, and he cannot back out if he wants to. Dogs are not humans in furry overcoats, and cannot expect to think the same as us.


Sorry, but phobics are beyond rational though. You don't rationalise when you're panicking and even as a "reasoning" human being, it still takes a _heck _of a lot of courage to stand there and face the fear stimulus when every fibre in your body is screaming at you to run, faster than humanely possible, in the opposite direction.

And please point out, _where_, exactly, I have suggested that dogs ARE humans in furry coats?!



> I have seen VS get a dog over his fear of stairs by simply taking a long time about it and putting high value treats on the stairs. She had him running up and down the stairs quite happily at the end, but of course there was no drama, no "look what I can do, aren't I clever?"


I also used treats to help Milly get over her fear, but she was still "flooded" by the fear stimulus, multiple times every day.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> Sorry, but phobics are beyond rational though. You don't rationalise when you're panicking and even as a "reasoning" human being, it still takes a _heck _of a lot of courage to stand there and face the fear stimulus when every fibre in your body is screaming at you to run, faster than humanely possible, in the opposite direction.
> 
> And please point out, _where_, exactly, I have suggested that dogs ARE humans in furry coats?!
> 
> I also used treats to help Milly get over her fear, but she was still "flooded" by the fear stimulus, multiple times every day.


I don't mean to sound patronising, but I think you are a bit confused with the terminology. "Flooding", as can be seen from the word, means that you expose whoever to their fear in its worst form. Very crudely, you confront someone with the biggest, meanest, blackest spider you can find rather than a tiny, little one you can barely see.

What you have been doing with your dog is not flooding, as by the very nature of the term, you haven't "flooded" your dog with a scary stimulus.

Just thought, I'd clear that up.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> I don't mean to sound patronising, but I think you are a bit confused with the terminology. "Flooding", as can be seen from the word, means that you expose whoever to their fear in its worst form. Very crudely, you confront someone with the biggest, meanest, blackest spider you can find rather than a tiny, little one you can barely see.
> 
> What you have been doing with your dog is not flooding, as by the very nature of the term, you haven't "flooded" your dog with a scary stimulus.
> 
> Just thought, I'd clear that up.


You most definately are patronising. I know what it means.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

metaldog said:


> There is a difference between a tap and a kick, CM doesn't use a slightest touch he gives them a hard kick. Why would you condone kicking a dog? How would you feel if someone kicked Sammy?


If someone kicked Sammy they wouldnt have use of that leg anymore. I still think its more of touch then a full blown kick.

Anyway how do you embed ur youtube links like that? When i copy and paste the url all that happens is the title gets posted here


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> You most definately are patronising. I know what it means.


We might just have to agree to disagree on what you want to call the technique. Great, that your dog is no longer scared, whatever name you want to give the technique.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> Sorry, but phobics are beyond rational though. You don't rationalise when you're panicking and even as a "reasoning" human being, it still takes a _heck _of a lot of courage to stand there and face the fear stimulus when every fibre in your body is screaming at you to run, faster than humanely possible, in the opposite direction.
> 
> And please point out, _where_, exactly, I have suggested that dogs ARE humans in furry coats?!
> 
> I also used treats to help Milly get over her fear, but she was still "flooded" by the fear stimulus, multiple times every day.


I didn't say you thought they were humans in furry coats. But I do wonder when people say that they have been flooded to get them over a fear. As I said, dogs do not want to get over their fear, they want to run away and hide from it and they do not know that it will end.

The comparison just does not hold up.

If I have a phobia of something that affects my every day life, I might use the same treatment. I am terrified of birds, but I don't need to meet them if I don't want to so I shan't be walking into an aviary any time soon. If I were afraid of outside, though, I would certainly try everything to overcome it.

The pity is that a lot of fears that these dogs have can simply be avoided, they are not affecting the dog as he does not have to confront them in every day life. It is usually the selfish owners who want them to do something they are afraid to suit themselves. That I object to.

One of my dogs has taken a dislike to the field at the end of the road where I used to be able to let them off lead. He simply backs up and refuses to go in, then races me out. I would certainly like to get him over that, as it was so convenient, but I don't need to; I simply go somewhere else.



5rivers79 said:


> If someone kicked Sammy they wouldnt have use of that leg anymore. I still think its more of touch then a full blown kick.
> 
> Anyway how do you embed ur youtube links like that? When i copy and paste the url all that happens is the title gets posted here


If it is a public video, you click on share, then embed and you get a code, which you copy and paste into your post. If it is not available, you just have to use the link.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Do bear in mind that for people with slower connections, embedded videos can be a right PITA.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Do bear in mind that for people with slower connections, embedded videos can be a right PITA.


Yeh but how do you do it?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Yeh but how do you do it?


Did you see my last post? You find the video on You Tube, click on share, then on Embed. You then copy and paste the code into your post on here.

The code is not always available though. It depends on how the owner of the video has set it up.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I didn't say you thought they were humans in furry coats. But I do wonder when people say that they have been flooded to get them over a fear. As I said, dogs do not want to get over their fear, they want to run away and hide from it and they do not know that it will end.
> 
> The comparison just does not hold up.
> 
> ...


Thank u


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

5rivers79 said:


> Yeh but how do you do it?


Get the address of the Youtube video, say...

w w w.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI (soz for the spaces at the start, otherwise it won't show)

What you need is the bit after the v=, so RFCGtatpCwI

You need to wrap that bit in the Youtube tags, so it would be...

*youtube_browser*RFCGtatpCwI*/youtube_browser*

But you need to swap out the * i've placed there for [ and ] symbols which would make it work like...

[youtube_browser]RFCGtatpCwI[/youtube_browser]


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

metaldog said:


> There is a difference between a tap and a kick, CM doesn't use a slightest touch he gives them a hard kick. Why would you condone kicking a dog? How would you feel if someone kicked Sammy?


*LMAO well now i've heard it all.How on gods earth can you tell how hard he "kicks" a dog? Goodness me i do wish people wouldn't exagerate.:nono:*


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *LMAO well now i've heard it all.How on gods earth can you tell how hard he "kicks" a dog? Goodness me i do wish people wouldn't exagerate.:nono:*


Janice, as much as i dislike CM, i do agree with you here.

I don't think he kicks dogs, but he does make contact and nudges/pushes them. I very much doubt it causes and pain or discomfort.

I dont agree with him doing it, but to claim he is booting dogs is incorrect.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *LMAO well now i've heard it all.How on gods earth can you tell how hard he "kicks" a dog? Goodness me i do wish people wouldn't exagerate.:nono:*


OMG!! I can tell you now, not one of my rotties would consider that movement a 'kick' believe you me!! I have 'petted' my males harder than that!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I have no idea whether it is a kick or not, but since a lot of people believe that is just what it is, it should not be shown on tv as part of a training programme. Obviously, there are going to be some who follow his methods and do kick their dog. It must be ok because the Dog Whisperer says so.

Putting a disclaimer on the screen about not trying this at home just about says it all really.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I have no idea whether it is a kick or not, but since a lot of people believe that is just what it is, it should not be shown on tv as part of a training programme. Obviously, there are going to be some who follow his methods and do kick their dog. It must be ok because the Dog Whisperer says so.
> 
> Putting a disclaimer on the screen about not trying this at home just about says it all really.


Makes you wonder if any trainer should have a TV show.

The producers don't have animal welfare at the front of their minds, but ratings and the subsequent profits from mechandise.

Ive seem just as bad, if not worse, methods used on Dog Borstal (constant shaking of stones in bottles - headcollars being used to drag dogs with no desensitisation to wearing it), yet that show doesnt seem to have the same emotional impact that the DW does.

I don't bother watching any of them anymore, as i think the vast majority do more harm than good.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Makes you wonder if any trainer should have a TV show.
> 
> The producers don't have animal welfare at the front of their minds, but ratings and the subsequent profits from mechandise.
> 
> ...


I have never seen the Dog Borstal. The name put me off, you could almost tell by the title the sort of methods that were going to be used.

I have only ever seen CM and VS. She has a lot of followers but without the drama she doesn't get the ratings, and her show is usually on during the day. She got a lot of flack, apparently, about the little spaniel that was pts due to rage syndrome, which their vet diagnosed and recommended; she merely agreed.

But he gets away with awful things and everyone says he is wonderful and inflicts him on another country.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I have never seen the Dog Borstal. The name put me off, you could almost tell by the title the sort of methods that were going to be used.
> 
> I have only ever seen CM and VS. She has a lot of followers but without the drama she doesn't get the ratings, and her show is usually on during the day. She got a lot of flack, apparently, about the little spaniel that was pts due to rage syndrome, which their vet diagnosed and recommended; she merely agreed.
> 
> But he gets away with awful things and everyone says he is wonderful and inflicts him on another country.


what awful things does he inflict...ive never seen that!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> I have never seen the Dog Borstal. The name put me off, you could almost tell by the title the sort of methods that were going to be used.
> 
> I have only ever seen CM and VS. She has a lot of followers but without the drama she doesn't get the ratings, and her show is usually on during the day. She got a lot of flack, apparently, about the little spaniel that was pts due to rage syndrome, which their vet diagnosed and recommended; she merely agreed.
> 
> But he gets away with awful things and everyone says he is wonderful and inflicts him on another country.


*People have the choice whether to watch his programe or not.So how is he inflicting on anyone?
Fine if people don't like the guy then just say so and don't watch him.But i for one like him being "inflicted" on me.*


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I have never seen the Dog Borstal. The name put me off, you could almost tell by the title the sort of methods that were going to be used.
> 
> I have only ever seen CM and VS. She has a lot of followers but without the drama she doesn't get the ratings, and her show is usually on during the day. She got a lot of flack, apparently, about the little spaniel that was pts due to rage syndrome, which their vet diagnosed and recommended; she merely agreed.
> 
> But he gets away with awful things and everyone says he is wonderful and inflicts him on another country.


DB is awful.

Kinda glad its died out tbh as not one of the 3 trainers really offered much in the way of common sense or knowedge.

Thankfully, im not hugely interested in dog training, or the doggy world in general so feel no need to read books on the subject nor watch countless shows.

I do wonder if CM's success if due to his show being from the US originally, where the attitude towards animals and welfare seems very different to ours and a lot of other European countries.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

metaldog said:


> I still agree with CMs philosophy on exercise, but not much else. I used to be a huge fan of the show, but as I became more educated about positive reinforcement and reward training, I found watching the show made me feel quite uncomfortable.
> 
> [youtube_browser]RFCGtatpCwI[/youtube_browser]


I honestly see nothing wrong with any of his actions in this video.

Dogs are made of strong stuff. I don't see any dogs limping away or crying in agony. If they do make a noise it is because they are surprised.

I happily use it as a distraction technique on my own dogs...


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

> seems some on here dont rate him as a trainer,ive always thought he was very good.i understand its tv,and not everything is as it seems,but i agree with his philosophys!


The mans a fool - Does more damage than good if you ask me..People see what a 30 min show and believe the dog is now perfectly behaved..LOL!!
Granted he does have some success in a short space of time, but anyone deadicated to their dogs is willing to put in the hard work to train their dogs in the first place, and dont need to use negative methods for a 'quick fix'.
- I have seen him use shock collars on dogs that disliked a cat - that is cruel.
- I have seen a clip of him strangling a husky where he lifted it off the ground by its lead and collar, leaving the dog breathless on the floor with a blue tongue, which indicates to me lack of oxygen  - vets did reports on the clip, as did other dog trainers and the like - and after a massive kick up across the internet I do believe the clip will no longer be found (but others on here are sure to remember it ...)

Anyways I could rant about him all day - but cant be bothered, simple fact is the mans a jerk - shouldnt be allowed to train dogs, has no qualifications to say he can, and just gets off being filmed as the 'big ard man'.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> The mans a fool - Does more damage than good if you ask me..People see what a 30 min show and believe the dog is now perfectly behaved..LOL!!
> Granted he does have some success in a short space of time, but anyone deadicated to their dogs is willing to put in the hard work to train their dogs in the first place, and dont need to use negative methods for a 'quick fix'.
> - I have seen him use shock collars on dogs that disliked a cat - that is cruel.
> - I have seen a clip of him strangling a husky where he lifted it off the ground by its lead and collar, leaving the dog breathless on the floor with a blue tongue, which indicates to me lack of oxygen  - vets did reports on the clip, as did other dog trainers and the like - and after a massive kick up across the internet I do believe the clip will no longer be found (but others on here are sure to remember it ...)
> ...


Would that be the same clip where the dogs laying on its side trying to get its breath back, with CM leaning on/next to it, with its penis out and CM comments on it, saying its the ultimate sign of dominance?

He's obviously not heard of the Hangmans Hard-on.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> The mans a fool - Does more damage than good if you ask me..People see what a 30 min show and believe the dog is now perfectly behaved..LOL!!
> Granted he does have some success in a short space of time, but anyone deadicated to their dogs is willing to put in the hard work to train their dogs in the first place, and dont need to use negative methods for a 'quick fix'.
> - I have seen him use shock collars on dogs that disliked a cat - that is cruel.
> - I have seen a clip of him strangling a husky where he lifted it off the ground by its lead and collar, leaving the dog breathless on the floor with a blue tongue, which indicates to me lack of oxygen  - vets did reports on the clip, as did other dog trainers and the like - and after a massive kick up across the internet I do believe the clip will no longer be found (but others on here are sure to remember it ...)
> ...


*Oh i was waiting for the one about how he strangled a husky.:lol::lol:
Now we've seen him "kick" dogs.....wait folks we will see him " strangle" a husky.
OOps nearly forgot the other old chestnut, his white teeth.FFS why can't people at least be honest,no matter what the guy did he will allways be wrong to some people.*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Oh i was waiting for the one about how he strangled a husky.:lol::lol:
> Now we've seen him "kick" dogs.....wait folks we will see him " strangle" a husky.
> OOps nearly forgot the other old chestnut, his white teeth.FFS why can't people at least be honest,no matter what the guy did he will allways be wrong to some people.*


its an ego thing,some always think they know best......if i wanted advice..i know where i would go!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Would that be the same clip where the dogs laying on its side trying to get its breath back, with CM leaning on/next to it, with its penis out and CM comments on it, saying its the ultimate sign of dominance?
> 
> He's obviously not heard of the Hangmans Hard-on.


Yeah, poor dog - how anyone can agree with the way in which that dog was treated is beyond me and as for the owners who just stood there - pfft. I would have practiced his own methods on himself.

Janice, I can only comment on what I have seen on him - as can anyone else  You have no problem with his methods, I do with most - I cant see, or understand why anyone would want to use such negative methods - only reason I can think of is, they cant be bothered to put in hard work with positive methods, for a positive out come.
I have said he does have success.- It does strike me as odd though that us that disagree with him, can accept him when hes done something good, but wont when he hasnt - Yet folk that 'like' him cant accept the fact that he has been harsh, and out of order more than once. 
- are you trying to tell me that, the husky wasnt strangled and left struggling for breath on the floor? because EVERY single person that done a report on that clip says it was, vets, dog trainers ect' ....


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

This is the video if anyone is interested..

Shadow turns blue - YouTube


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> This is the video if anyone is interested..
> 
> Shadow turns blue - YouTube


*With all honesty i still can't see a blue tongue..And just so i'm not being bias i have asked my hubby many time to rewatch this clip and neither can he.Now hubby doesn't care 1 way or another about Cesar.*


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Forget the blue tongue, is that a nice way to treat a dog? - can you see the dog stuggling to breath?


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

that dog is totally out of control,attacking him,i dont really know what else he could do.now it would be easy to sit on a laptop and talk about positive training etc.....sometimes things like this are needed!...its not an aproach i would like to use,but im sure its not one he wants to either!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yeah, poor dog - how anyone can agree with the way in which that dog was treated is beyond me and as for the owners who just stood there - pfft. I would have practiced his own methods on himself.
> 
> Janice, I can only comment on what I have seen on him - as can anyone else  You have no problem with his methods, I do with most - I cant see, or understand why anyone would want to use such negative methods - only reason I can think of is, they cant be bothered to put in hard work with positive methods, for a positive out come.
> I have said he does have success.- It does strike me as odd though that us that disagree with him, can accept him when hes done something good, but wont when he hasnt - Yet folk that 'like' him cant accept the fact that he has been harsh, and out of order more than once.
> - are you trying to tell me that, the husky wasnt strangled and left struggling for breath on the floor? because EVERY single person that done a report on that clip says it was, vets, dog trainers ect' ....


*Kerry as much as i like the guy i would admit if i saw something i didn't like.But perhaps i think differently because i don't believe in being too soppy with dogs.As for the husky,no imo it wasn't strangled anymore than Ceasr kicking a dog.*


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *With all honesty i still can't see a blue tongue..And just so i'm not being bias i have asked my hubby many time to rewatch this clip and neither can he.Now hubby doesn't care 1 way or another about Cesar.*


Its impossible to see any such thing on that video, as the quality is very poor.

However the gulping, the retching etc are all commons signs of a dog struggling to breathe. That animal went from being defensive/aggressive to fighting for its life.

Also, cyanosis is subtle. They don't go a bright blue and if someone doesnt know what they are looking for, and arent experienced in seeing it, then they probably wouldnt have a clue.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> that dog is totally out of control,attacking him,i dont really know what else he could do.now it would be easy to sit on a laptop and talk about positive training etc.....sometimes things like this are needed!...its not an aproach i would like to use,but im sure its not one he wants to either!


why did that dog start attacking him? watch again, he kicks it from behind..shocking the dog, the dog wasnt expecting that, and certainly doesnt have eyes in the back of its head. CM trigged that attack, and was more than pleased with the ripped jumper. - and to be honest, as attacks goes that was nothing.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Kerry as much as i like the guy i would admit if i saw something i didn't like.But perhaps i think differently because i don't believe in being too soppy with dogs.As for the husky,no imo it wasn't strangled anymore than Ceasr kicking a dog.*


I dont agree with a soppy approach either  - You dont have to, to disagree with the way in which he treats dogs. I also never said he kicks, but still I wouldnt have myself or anyone lay their hands or feet on my dogs in such a manner.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> why did that dog start attacking him? watch again, he kicks it from behind..shocking the dog, the dog wasnt expecting that, and certainly doesnt have eyes in the back of its head. CM trigged that attack, and was more than pleased with the ripped jumper. - and to be honest, as attacks goes that was nothing.


the dog was a problem dog,with aggresion issues....yeh he nudged it,but for the reason of getting it out of that state of mind......the aggresion was coming anyway.......its a difficult situation to deal with,and perhaps theres not a perfect way of dealing with it.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> the dog was a problem dog,with aggresion issues....yeh he nudged it,but for the reason of getting it out of that state of mind......the aggresion was coming anyway.......its a difficult situation to deal with,and perhaps theres not a perfect way of dealing with it.


well for me, CM triggered it - the dog wasnt doing anything - If thats his 'method' for getting a dog out of an aggressive state of mind, I suggest he rethinks


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> well for me, CM triggered it - the dog wasnt doing anything - If thats his 'method' for getting a dog out of an aggressive state of mind, I suggest he rethinks


look,you know you agree with me,lets stop the sillyness ,or youl lose browny points!lol


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> that dog is totally out of control,attacking him,i dont really know what else he could do.now it would be easy to sit on a laptop and talk about positive training etc.....sometimes things like this are needed!...its not an aproach i would like to use,but im sure its not one he wants to either!


If a positive training approach was used, the dog would have been kept under it's reactive threshold and rewarded for not reacting. This could then be built on, getting the dog to work closer to the other dog, over a period of time until he was comfortable sharing his space with other dogs.

Of course that doesn't make for very entertaining TV though.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> what awful things does he inflict...ive never seen that!


Apart from the strangled husky, which has already been discussed, how about shocking a dog every time he went near the cat in a misguided effort to make him get on with the cat. The dog eventually bit his owner, thinking it was she who was causing it. This was also underhand as he had the remote buried in his pocket and did not tell anyone he was using it. Of course if the dog is ever alone with the cat, he will probably kill it first chance he gets after that.

What about the dog that kept chasing the chickens? He was sat there with the dog held in one arm, the chicken in the other, and every time the dog looked at the chicken the Dog Abuser hit him. This despite the fact that the dog was licking his lips and giving off many calming signals.

What about the 11 month old St Bernard whom he first ran round the block then forced up a slippery spiral staircase? The selfish owners wanted him in their bedroom with them, and he did not seem to know that growing giant breeds should never be running nor climbing stairs.



JANICE199 said:


> *People have the choice whether to watch his programe or not.So how is he inflicting on anyone?
> Fine if people don't like the guy then just say so and don't watch him.But i for one like him being "inflicted" on me.*


Sorry, Janice, but this is not just a case of turning him off. If you go out with a new puppy and have every other person you meet telling you CM's ideas and what you should do to be his pack leader, then you realise that he is doing a lot of damage, whether I watch him or not.



Devil-Dogz said:


> The mans a fool - Does more damage than good if you ask me..People see what a 30 min show and believe the dog is now perfectly behaved..LOL!!
> Granted he does have some success in a short space of time, but anyone deadicated to their dogs is willing to put in the hard work to train their dogs in the first place, and dont need to use negative methods for a 'quick fix'.
> - I have seen him use shock collars on dogs that disliked a cat - that is cruel.
> - I have seen a clip of him strangling a husky where he lifted it off the ground by its lead and collar, leaving the dog breathless on the floor with a blue tongue, which indicates to me lack of oxygen  - vets did reports on the clip, as did other dog trainers and the like - and after a massive kick up across the internet I do believe the clip will no longer be found (but others on here are sure to remember it ...)
> ...


Oh, I so agree!



Nonnie said:


> Would that be the same clip where the dogs laying on its side trying to get its breath back, with CM leaning on/next to it, with its penis out and CM comments on it, saying its the ultimate sign of dominance?
> 
> He's obviously not heard of the Hangmans Hard-on.


Dominance? My Joshua is the most compliant, gentle, eager to please dog you could ever wish to meet, and he nearly always has his willy sticking out! What utter tripe!



JANICE199 said:


> *Oh i was waiting for the one about how he strangled a husky.:lol::lol:
> Now we've seen him "kick" dogs.....wait folks we will see him " strangle" a husky.
> OOps nearly forgot the other old chestnut, his white teeth.FFS why can't people at least be honest,no matter what the guy did he will allways be wrong to some people.*


I couldn't care less about his white teeth. He would be criticised even more if they were yellow!



albert 1970 said:


> its an ego thing,some always think they know best......if i wanted advice..i know where i would go!


Yes, you are right, it is an ego thing - CM's ego



albert 1970 said:


> that dog is totally out of control,attacking him,i dont really know what else he could do.now it would be easy to sit on a laptop and talk about positive training etc.....sometimes things like this are needed!...its not an aproach i would like to use,but im sure its not one he wants to either!


You don't know what else he could do? I can think of lots of things other than hanging it. What about ignoring it and letting it eventually come to you? And heaven knows what has been done to him in the past to make a husky that aggressive. They just are not people aggressive dogs.

Does he bother to learn or work with the underlying cause? Never.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Snuggles said:


> If a positive training approach was used, the dog would have been kept under it's reactive threshold and rewarded for not reacting. This could then be built on, getting the dog to work closer to the other dog, over a period of time until he was comfortable sharing his space with other dogs.
> 
> Of course that doesn't make for very entertaining TV though.


have to disagree,no point in going round in circles though!


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> have to disagree,no point in going round in circles though!


Disagree with what? The method? That it would work?


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Apart from the strangled husky, which has already been discussed, how about shocking a dog every time he went near the cat in a misguided effort to make him get on with the cat. The dog eventually bit his owner, thinking it was she who was causing it. This was also underhand as he had the remote buried in his pocket and did not tell anyone he was using it. Of course if the dog is ever alone with the cat, he will probably kill it first chance he gets after that.
> 
> What about the dog that kept chasing the chickens? He was sat there with the dog held in one arm, the chicken in the other, and every time the dog looked at the chicken the Dog Abuser hit him. This despite the fact that the dog was licking his lips and giving off many calming signals.
> 
> ...


may i ask where you take your dogs training?


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Snuggles said:


> Disagree with what? The method? That it would work?


its very easy to sit here and critisize,from what i could see,there wasnt a lot of behavior to praise.......now i use praise training,so im not dismissing it,but sometimes other things are needed.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> may i ask where you take your dogs training?


That seems like a very odd question. I don't take my dogs training anywhere, I have always trained them myself and they behave very well as it happens. Not perfectly, but then I don't particularly want that.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> That seems like a very odd question. I don't take my dogs training anywhere, I have always trained them myself and they behave very well as it happens. Not perfectly, but then I don't particularly want that.


sorry,it wasnt a dig,perhaps it was just a bit random lol.reason being,you dont live far away,and my wife and kids want to take albert to classes.hes been before with them,but i didnt like the way it was done!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> its very easy to sit here and critisize,from what i could see,there wasnt a lot of behavior to praise.......now i use praise training,so im not dismissing it,but sometimes other things are needed.


There was positive behaviour to award, before he nudged the dog (from what I can see for no reason!) - the dog then reacted to the un called for nudge. -so your left with a dog that has become frustrated, instead of correcting that behaviour CM then reacts by working the dog up even more, until the dog has no fight left in it, and just lies down, trying and clearly struggling to breath. - To CM this is the dog submitting..LOOOOL!
- other things are sometimes needed - like a new trainer if CMs is being used


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> its very easy to sit here and critisize,from what i could see,there wasnt a lot of behavior to praise.......now i use praise training,so im not dismissing it,but sometimes other things are needed.


Which is my point. The dog shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place. Millan set the dog up to fail.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> There was positive behaviour to award, before he nudged the dog (from what I can see for no reason!) - the dog then reacted to the un called for nudge. -so your left with a dog that has become frustrated, instead of correcting that behaviour CM then reacts by working the dog up even more, until the dog has no fight left in it, and just lies down, trying and clearly struggling to breath. - To CM this is the dog submitting..LOOOOL!
> - other things are sometimes needed - like a new trainer if CMs is being used


he nudged the dog,cos the behavior had already started!to reward train in these situations and get it wrong,would be a lot more dangerous!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Snuggles said:


> Which is my point. The dog shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place. Millan set the dog up to fail.


but that was the problem he was sent to sort out!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> sorry,it wasnt a dig,perhaps it was just a bit random lol.reason being,you dont live far away,and my wife and kids want to take albert to classes.hes been before with them,but i didnt like the way it was done!


If you are near Cambridge and dont mind a drive you could check these guys out.

The Guy that runs the overall classes keeps GSDs. The class in Impington is outdoors too which i found made it less stressful than in a hall.

CCEG Home Page


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## Roobster2010 (Jan 17, 2011)

I think I might be the only person in the world who has never seen this 'dog whisperer' programme, or even seen 1 of this Ceaser Milans' books & I wouldn't even know what he looked like but for a picture of him on this thread.

He certainly gets a lot of free publicity & causes a lot of bad feeling between members of this forum though.

I don't know if I've got a point or not, I just wanted to share.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> the dog was a problem dog,with aggresion issues....yeh he nudged it,but for the reason of getting it out of that state of mind......the aggresion was coming anyway.......its a difficult situation to deal with,and perhaps theres not a perfect way of dealing with it.


Who says the aggression was coming anyway? Not Cesar Millan by any chance.



Devil-Dogz said:


> well for me, CM triggered it - the dog wasnt doing anything - If thats his 'method' for getting a dog out of an aggressive state of mind, I suggest he rethinks


I have often seen him start on a dog that wasn't doing anything.



albert 1970 said:


> sorry,it wasnt a dig,perhaps it was just a bit random lol.reason being,you dont live far away,and my wife and kids want to take albert to classes.hes been before with them,but i didnt like the way it was done!


I can't help you there I'm afraid. There is a lady in Great Chesterford who was wonderful at getting Ferdie over his fear of the car. She runs classes up there.


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## brackenhwv (Mar 28, 2010)

I have just watched the video So what do you do if your dog turns on you, at that point ? Not talking about the underlying issues that may have caused it, say it's the first time it happens and you're caught unawares. How do you stop the attack ? What would most folks reactions be ? I doubt the dog would be in a state to listen to positive reinforcement . I don't think most people would react in calm controlled manner, you would get varied reactions ?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> he nudged the dog,cos the behavior had already started!to reward train in these situations and get it wrong,would be a lot more dangerous!


what was the DOG doing that needed correcting with the nudge? - The dog was failed by CM - he didnt have control over the situation, and its fair to say he shouldnt have took the dog into that situation in the first place. You only reward good behaviour, there was no good behaviour because once the dog got frustrated CM didnt take control, instead just reacted.. CM likes to be seen as top dog you see, and wont back down so instread just carries on winding the dog up, until the dog physically cant continue. - CM hasnt won - or in any way taught the dog the behaviour is not wanted. Infact to me he made it alot worse, and now the poor owners will have to deal with that. - if they cant cope what happens? Dog will be PTS.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> he nudged the dog,cos the behavior had already started!to reward train in these situations and get it wrong,would be a lot more dangerous!


The dog looked at the other dog, he nudged it to snap it out of it and redirect its focus. Shadow had no idea where that came from, and reacted aggressively.

Had he taught the dog a sit command, or a watch me command before hand, then the whole situation could have been easily avoided.

CM takes dogs to their breaking point, and pushes them over. Half of themdon't act out of aggression, but fear and confusion, and because their flight option has been removed from them, so they have little choice but to fight, or shut down.


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## Roobster2010 (Jan 17, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> That seems like a very odd question. I don't take my dogs training anywhere, *I have always trained them myself and they behave very well as it happens. Not perfectly, but then I don't particularly want that.*




Me too, that was the actual point I meant to make in my previous post & forgot to put it in. Mega blonde moment


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Who says the aggression was coming anyway? Not Cesar Millan by any chance.
> 
> I have often seen him start on a dog that wasn't doing anything.
> 
> I can't help you there I'm afraid. There is a lady in Great Chesterford who was wonderful at getting Ferdie over his fear of the car. She runs classes up there.


no need to try and patronise....cm didnt say it was aggresion coming,but if you understand a dogs body language,especially when you have it on a lead,you can tell what its intentions are!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> The dog looked at the other dog, he nudged it to snap it out of it and redirect its focus. Shadow had no idea where that came from, and reacted aggressively.
> 
> Had he taught the dog a sit command, or a watch me command before hand, then the whole situation could have been easily avoided.
> 
> CM takes dogs to their breaking point, and pushes them over. Half of themdon't act out of aggression, but fear and confusion, and because their flight option has been removed from them, so they have little choice but to fight, or shut down.


in most cases,thats how he has done it,for some reason on this occasion he didnt.....i dont know why,but hes forgotten more about dogs than il ever know!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> no need to try and patronise....cm didnt say it was aggresion coming,but if you understand a dogs body language,especially when you have it on a lead,you can tell what its intentions are!


so CM is not just a dog whisper, hes also a dog mind reader. Of course owners can make an educated guess as to the intentions of their dogs - but each dogs different - and CM doesnt know this dog. I cant see what this dogs intentions where, or see its body language change.


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> he nudged the dog,cos the behavior had already started!to reward train in these situations and get it wrong,would be a lot more dangerous!


You can do a lot less damage with a miss-timed bit of cheese than with a 'nudge'. I've never seen a dog explode over a titbit. 



albert 1970 said:


> but that was the problem he was sent to sort out!!


Yep and it could have been sorted using distance work initially and keeping the dog under his reactive threshold.

What has that dog learnt? That if he reacts, he gets half-strangled and pinned? I'm sure that's going to do his confidence around other dogs the world of good without even touching on his trust in humans.

There was no need to 'throw the dog in at the deep end' other than to make entertaining TV.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> If you are near Cambridge and dont mind a drive you could check these guys out.
> 
> The Guy that runs the overall classes keeps GSDs. The class in Impington is outdoors too which i found made it less stressful than in a hall.
> 
> CCEG Home Page


thanks rainbow,bit far for us though.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

brackenhwv said:


> I have just watched the video So what do you do if your dog turns on you, at that point ? Not talking about the underlying issues that may have caused it, say it's the first time it happens and you're caught unawares. How do you stop the attack ? What would most folks reactions be ? I doubt the dog would be in a state to listen to positive reinforcement . I don't think most people would react in calm controlled manner, you would get varied reactions ?


If a dog were to attack me I would everything I could to defend myself, but I would not try turning on the dog and showing it whose boss, even if I were strong enough. That would just be asking to be attacked again.



Nonnie said:


> The dog looked at the other dog, he nudged it to snap it out of it and redirect its focus. Shadow had no idea where that came from, and reacted aggressively.
> 
> Had he taught the dog a sit command, or a watch me command before hand, then the whole situation could have been easily avoided.
> 
> CM takes dogs to their breaking point, and pushes them over. Half of themdon't act out of aggression, but fear and confusion, and because their flight option has been removed from them, so they have little choice but to fight, or shut down.


I read recently that his own dog that he got as a puppy had no clue how to sit or lie down till someone else came along and taught him, as CM did not know how to teach these simple things.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

If this dog was known to be "dominant aggressive" rolleyes why wasn't it muzzled, and why wasnt it placed on a flat collar, rather than firstly what looked like a half-check (can't tell if it was a prong or not) and then a noose made from a leather lead?

These situations can be easily avoided, and all this video proves to me, is that CM can't read a dogs body language and knows next to nothing about dog behaviour and communication.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> thanks rainbow,bit far for us though.


No worries wasnt sure where you were as i am not that far from newfiesmum.

It's a shame though they have a good mix of dogs there including some big uns and its a really sociable class so good place to meet some big playmates for Albert.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> so CM is not just a dog whisper, hes also a dog mind reader. Of course owners can make an educated guess as to the intentions of their dogs - but each dogs different - and CM doesnt know this dog. I cant see what this dogs intentions where, or see its body language change.


i have faith in cm,i like what he says,i like (mainly)how he does it......now its not for everyone,and some things i would do differently,but he knows what hes doing,he loves dogs,and wouldnt do them harm!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> No worries wasnt sure where you were as i am not that far from newfiesmum.
> 
> It's a shame though they have a good mix of dogs there including some big uns and its a really sociable class so good place to meet some big playmates for Albert.


im in harlow essex,its not that far,but the wifes got to do it after school,and she gets lost going to the bathroom lol!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I read recently that his own dog that he got as a puppy had no clue how to sit or lie down till someone else came along and taught him, as CM did not know how to teach these simple things.


Its interesting you say that, as ive never seen him teach anything that doesnt involve a lead or physical contact.

How would he teach recall i wonder?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> and all this video proves to me, is that CM can't read a dogs body language and knows next to nothing about dog behaviour and communication.


& his lack of qualifications say the same - how he can offer a 'service' with no sort of qualifications in that subject. I will never know. - People just believe hes a 'god' because of the small bits of a programme shown on TV - more fool them. - we wouldnt go to a non - qualifed vet now would we - so I am lost as to why people would use a non qualifed dog trainer


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> If this dog was known to be "dominant aggressive" rolleyes why wasn't it muzzled, and why wasnt it placed on a flat collar, rather than firstly what looked like a half-check (can't tell if it was a prong or not) and then a noose made from a leather lead?
> 
> These situations can be easily avoided, and all this video proves to me, is that CM can't read a dogs body language and knows next to nothing about dog behaviour and communication.


he was there to correct the dogs aggresion towards dogs,how else can he do it without introducing it to another dog,with most of these shows,its a crash course,if he had unlimited time,maybe he would of done it differently!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i have faith in cm,i like what he says,i like (mainly)how he does it......now its not for everyone,and some things i would do differently,but he knows what hes doing,he loves dogs,and wouldnt do them harm!


I disagree, hes done alot of harm to dogs over the years. I dont believe he loves them, or even understands them. His methods are mainly shuddy, and just there to boost his own ego.
If hes that perfect as a dog trainer why does no other trainer take on his wonderful, quick working methods? - why do most trainers hate the man?
I also happen to be lost at how he can keep a 'pack' of 40 odd dogs, yet travell to train everyone elses, leaving his dogs home and not knowing basic commands.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> & his lack of qualifications say the same - how he can offer a 'service' with no sort of qualifications in that subject. I will never know. - People just believe hes a 'god' because of the small bits of a programme shown on TV - more fool them. - we wouldnt go to a non - qualifed vet now would we - so I am lost as to why people would use a non qualifed dog trainer


albert went puppy training,with a QAULIFIED trainer....what a total joke she was.....give me a proper dog man like ceaser anyday!!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> he was there to correct the dogs aggresion towards dogs,how else can he do it without introducing it to another dog,with most of these shows,its a crash course,if he had unlimited time,maybe he would of done it differently!


But first you work on getting the dogs attention, in a positive manner - so that in that situation, the dog is focused on you and then rewarded for ignoring the other passing dog  The dog thinks your more interesting, and something good is coming for being calm, and doing as is asked.

You dont just jump straight to the problem there is ALOT of work to be put in before and after, it takes time and thats the issue for CM he doesnt like to put effort or time in


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> he was there to correct the dogs aggresion towards dogs,how else can he do it without introducing it to another dog,with most of these shows,its a crash course,if he had unlimited time,maybe he would of done it differently!


By desensitising the poor thing to other dogs. Not by traumatising it.

The fact he is on TV and filming, shouldnt make one iota of difference. Behavioural modification takes time, and if corners are cut purely for the purpose of entertainment, id question the motives of all involved.

By avoiding the situation, i mean the outburst, not the meeting of other dogs.

Training should never be a crash course.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> no need to try and patronise....cm didnt say it was aggresion coming,but if you understand a dogs body language,especially when you have it on a lead,you can tell what its intentions are!


I wasn't trying to patronise, but I am always hearing about what he has prevented and the only information on that comes from him or his narrators. He is the last person in the world to understand dog body language, anyway.l



albert 1970 said:


> in most cases,thats how he has done it,for some reason on this occasion he didnt.....i dont know why,but hes forgotten more about dogs than il ever know!


That is an admission I would feel embarrassed about making.



albert 1970 said:


> but that was the problem he was sent to sort out!!


And how do you sort out a problem before it happens? If the dog wasn't doing anything wrong, he should at least have waited until he was. He might then have discovered the trigger instead of supplying his own.



albert 1970 said:


> i have faith in cm,i like what he says,i like (mainly)how he does it......now its not for everyone,and some things i would do differently,but he knows what hes doing,he loves dogs,and wouldnt do them harm!


He does them harm every time he walks in their home



albert 1970 said:


> im in harlow essex,its not that far,but the wifes got to do it after school,and she gets lost going to the bathroom lol!


Now who is being patronising?



Nonnie said:


> Its interesting you say that, as ive never seen him teach anything that doesnt involve a lead or physical contact.
> 
> *How would he teach recall i wonder*?


Shock collar. Is there another way?!!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> albert went puppy training,with a QAULIFIED trainer....what a total joke she was.....give me a proper dog man like ceaser anyday!!


Oh dear - qualifications, are not the the sign of a decent trainer - but there a sign that they have an understanding and have spent time learning, before offering a service.
not all dog trainers are well matched to each dog and its owner.

a proper dog man and CM shouldnt even be said in the same sentance.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> But first you work on getting the dogs attention, in a positive manner - so that in that situation, the dog is focused on you and then rewarded for ignoring the other passing dog  The dog thinks your more interesting, and something good is coming for being calm, and doing as is asked.
> 
> You dont just jump straight to the problem there is ALOT of work to be put in before and after, it takes time and thats the issue for CM he doesnt like to put effort or time in


devil...i agree with you,its how i do it with albert....but alberts got no issues..so it works.cm has a couple of days to sort theses dogs out of massive problems,im sure if a cube of cheese could sort it,hed do it.ive seen him use praise training loads of times!


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## brackenhwv (Mar 28, 2010)

Thanks NM, I would do the same, defend myself as best i could and get the attack stopped, then try and work out why it occurred. Hope it's a situ i never finf myself in !


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Oh dear - qualifications, are not the the sign of a decent trainer - but there a sign that they have an understanding and have spent time learning, before offering a service.
> not all dog trainers are well matched to each dog and its owner.
> 
> a proper dog man and CM shouldnt even be said in the same sentance.


you was using the fact he had no qaulifications to qauntify your argument...i was just doing the same!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> devil...i agree with you,its how i do it with albert....but alberts got no issues..so it works.cm has a couple of days to sort theses dogs out of massive problems,im sure if a cube of cheese could sort it,hed do it.ive seen him use praise training loads of times!


He could have taught a solid sit, or watch me in less than an hour with the correct motivator.

But he didnt want to set the dog up to succeed, he wanted to set it up to fail, as its more dramatic.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> devil...i agree with you,its how i do it with albert....but alberts got no issues..so it works.cm has a couple of days to sort theses dogs out of massive problems,im sure if a cube of cheese could sort it,hed do it.ive seen him use praise training loads of times!


I have never seen him praise a dog for good behaviour. - unless the dogs lied on the floor, and hes boosting that its taken X amount of time for the dog to submit.
- Glad you train Albert in a positive manner. - CM would use the same methods no matter how long he had, he reacts to the negative behaviour - and in no way uses positive re inforcement.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> you was using the fact he had no qaulifications to qauntify your argument...i was just doing the same!


I wasnt - because I would hold the same opinion on him, no matter what qualifications he held. The fact that he has no qualifications, proves to me that he hasnt spent the time or effort learning, and understanding how to train a dog - he almost just woke up and decided he could train dogs, and offered his services.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> im in harlow essex,its not that far,but the wifes got to do it after school,and she gets lost going to the bathroom lol!


its a weekend class 

it is about an hour for you still though, i used to live down the road from you, near Ware 

used to go clubbing in Harlow


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I disagree, hes done alot of harm to dogs over the years. I dont believe he loves them, or even understands them. His methods are mainly shuddy, and just there to boost his own ego.
> If hes that perfect as a dog trainer why does no other trainer take on his wonderful, quick working methods? - *why do most trainers hate the man*?
> I also happen to be lost at how he can keep a 'pack' of 40 odd dogs, yet travell to train everyone elses, leaving his dogs home and not knowing basic commands.


His followers would tell you it is because they are jealous! He doesn't look after the dogs himself, does he, employs people to do that. He is only seen with his huge pack for a clip at the beginning of the show. That might be all he ever sees of them for all we know.



albert 1970 said:


> devil...i agree with you,its how i do it with albert....but alberts got no issues..so it works.cm has a couple of days to sort theses dogs out of massive problems,im sure if a cube of cheese could sort it,hed do it.ive seen him use praise training loads of times!


Why does he have limited time? A proper trainer would not even attempt it in a limited time. VS uses only positive methods, but takes hours, then goes back again a week later, then a fortnight later to see that everything is being done right.

I am not a great believer in qualifications myself, actually, I would rather have someone who knows what they are doing in a practical sense, not just on paper. If someone has an affinity with dogs and can get them to do what they want without force, then they are a trainer as far as I am concerned.

Unfortunately, CM can do none of that and has no affinity with dogs.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> its a weekend class
> 
> it is about an hour for you still though, i used to live down the road from you, near Ware
> 
> used to go clubbing in Harlow


your brave!!!.....i think she wants something local for midweek,i just want it to be her,the kids,not me.......albert takes more notice of me than them...so i want them to do it together.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> your brave!!!.....i think she wants something local for midweek,i just want it to be her,the kids,not me.......albert takes more notice of me than them...so i want them to do it together.


Have you asked your vet? He might know someone, then get her to go along and watch a class without the dog so she can see what methods are being used.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

tbh,theres clearly plenty who dont like him,and plenty that do.....im one that does.he does positive train too,with rewards.....and to question that he doesnt care about dogs i think is unfair!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Have you asked your vet? He might know someone, then get her to go along and watch a class without the dog so she can see what methods are being used.


yeah thanks,we,re gona start enquiring now,we were waiting for the kids to go back to school,for normality to return...il keep all updated....but hes a very good boy anyway tbh.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> tbh,theres clearly plenty who dont like him,and plenty that do.....im one that does.he does positive train too,with rewards.....and to question that he doesnt care about dogs i think is unfair!


care to prove your point, and show us a clip where he is using a positive method and one where he rewards the dog? I havent seen him praise with a fuss, treat, toy ect. - that would be because we all know he focuses on the bad behaviour, alone.
Its not unfair to question his care for dogs - if he cared so much he would not train the way he does, and then leave owners picking up the pieces.

and to think he owns a CC :crying: :crying: - such a sensitive a breed that will in no way cope with all that negative training.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Might I suggest this thread gets closed? It's not really getting anywhere and people are just getting annoyed with each other.

Let's just end this debate and agree to disagree.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> care to prove your point, and show us a clip where he is using a positive method and one where he rewards the dog? I havent seen him praise with a fuss, treat, toy ect. - that would be because we all know he focuses on the bad behaviour, alone.
> Its not unfair to question his care for dogs - if he cared so much he would not train the way he does, and then leave owners picking up the pieces.
> 
> and to think he owns a CC :crying: :crying: - such a sensitive a breed that will in no way cope with all that negative training.


im sorry your honour,i have no proof!,but he does use it,as i say,some of what he does is a method some dont agree with,but i feel he only does it when nesasary


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> Might I suggest this thread gets closed? It's not really getting anywhere and people are just getting annoyed with each other.
> 
> Let's just end this debate and agree to disagree.


and my one finger typing is hurting lol!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> care to prove your point, and show us a clip where he is using a positive method and one where he rewards the dog? I havent seen him praise with a fuss, treat, toy ect. - that would be because we all know he focuses on the bad behaviour, alone.
> Its not unfair to question his care for dogs - if he cared so much he would not train the way he does, and then leave owners picking up the pieces.
> 
> and to think he owns a CC :crying: :crying: - such a sensitive a breed that will in no way cope with all that negative training.


What is a CC please? I have racked my limited brains but cannot think of anything.



terencesmum said:


> Might I suggest this thread gets closed? It's not really getting anywhere and people are just getting annoyed with each other.
> 
> Let's just end this debate and agree to disagree.


Why should it get closed? I see no personal attacks, I see nobody upset or about to throw their toys out of their pram.

Sorry, but we rather like a good debate on here, both sides are having their say. Why don't you unsubscribe then you won't get email updates.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> im sorry your honour,i have no proof!,but he does use it,as i say,some of what he does is a method some dont agree with,but i feel he only does it when nesasary


no proof - I rest my case then


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I'm not annoyed.

I find other peoples perspectives on the same subject and same video rather interesting, and i like putting forward my views and opinions, and i feel im open minded enough to take onboard those of others, even if i dont agree with them.

No one has got personal.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> What is a CC please? I have racked my limited brains but cannot think of anything.
> 
> Why should it get closed? I see no personal attacks, I see nobody upset or about to throw their toys out of their pram.
> 
> Sorry, but we rather like a good debate on here, both sides are having their say. Why don't you unsubscribe then you won't get email updates.


CC - Chinese Crested :001_tt1: 

& I totally agree...


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> It's still the same thing with the same outcome - in order to get over a fear, you _have _to face it, whether you use the "gentle introduction" method or the skyscraper method. In the mind of a phobic, believe me, there's no difference at all. The scary thing is still within sight.


Please read up on flooding, also known as learned helplessness. What you described was desensitisation, which is the modern approach. However, Cesar puts dogs in situations that are above the limit they can handle, which causes them to react. Cesar then corrects them for reacting, and eventually the dogs are exhausted and often lie down, too scared and helpless to move. This is Cesar's calm submission, but we know as learned helplessness. We've known this from the 60s- Cesar is far behind.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

i think its an interesting debate,not much point in a forum if we cant disagree.........just wish a few more where on my side lol


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i think its an interesting debate,not much point in a forum if we cant disagree.........just wish a few more where on my side lol


& I am glad their not!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

DD, i havent seen it with my own eyes, but apparently in his latest season, he has used rewards.

No idea nor for what though.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> CC - Chinese Crested :001_tt1:
> 
> & I totally agree...


Oh, my God! He should definitely not have one of those! I would have thought something tough looking would have been more his style.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> no proof - I rest my case then


noooooooo,just cant troll through loads of clips at the mo young lady!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> DD, i havent seen it with my own eyes, but apparently in his latest season, he has used rewards.
> 
> No idea nor for what though.


ah right - well I shall have to take peoples word for it, becuase I am not about to start watching his programme - will wind myself up.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> i think its an interesting debate,not much point in a forum if we cant disagree.........just wish a few more where on my side lol


I am afraid you've come to the wrong place for that!



Nonnie said:


> DD, i havent seen it with my own eyes, but apparently in his latest season, he has used rewards.
> 
> No idea nor for what though.


He started that with the UK series, probably because his advisors told him his methods would not go down well with the British public. He managed to wait till it was too late though to get out the treats, so he was in fact rewarding the dog for reacting instead of being calm. Then declared that treats don't always work.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Why should it get closed? I see no personal attacks, I see nobody upset or about to throw their toys out of their pram.
> 
> Sorry, but we rather like a good debate on here, both sides are having their say. Why don't you unsubscribe then you won't get email updates.


Oh, I'm all for good debate but this particular one isn't going anywhere, is it? It just feels like the same arguments are repeated over and over...


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> ah right - well I shall have to take peoples word for it, becuase I am not about to start watching his programme - will wind myself up.


i accept your apology!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Oh, my God! He should definitely not have one of those! I would have thought something tough looking would have been more his style.


Their such a sensitve breed, and thrive off human company - that I worry about the poor thing 
I believe its called Louis, and was a rescued stray - should be able to read about him with a quick google search!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I am afraid you've come to the wrong place for that!
> 
> He started that with the UK series, probably because his advisors told him his methods would not go down well with the British public. He managed to wait till it was too late though to get out the treats, so he was in fact rewarding the dog for reacting instead of being calm. Then declared that treats don't always work.


i know im alone on this,but i feel im right,so will continue putting my case!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> Oh, I'm all for good debate but this particular one isn't going anywhere, is it? It just feels like the same arguments are repeated over and over...


So what if it is? That is no reason to close it. There could be other members who haven't even seen it yet and might want to have their say - Albert might even find some allies if he waits long enough.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Oh, I'm all for good debate but this particular one isn't going anywhere, is it? It just feels like the same arguments are repeated over and over...


Do any of them really go anywhere?

Ive never seen a single debate that has resulted in a conclusion agreed to by all. They normally end in a stale mate.

People are still entitled to air their views, and as long as it doesnt get personal, i don't think going in circles is a bad thing. Especially as new members may join in with a completely different perspective.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> So what if it is? That is no reason to close it. There could be other members who haven't even seen it yet and might want to have their say - Albert might even find some allies if he waits long enough.


hahahaha....have we got that long lol!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> & his lack of qualifications say the same - how he can offer a 'service' with no sort of qualifications in that subject. I will never know. - People just believe hes a 'god' because of the small bits of a programme shown on TV - more fool them. - we wouldnt go to a non - qualifed vet now would we - so I am lost as to why people would use a non qualifed dog trainer


*The lack of what you and others may call qualifications means naff all.My oldest son is a top mechanic but he's self taught.As for believing Cesar is a god,pmsl give some of us some credit.Oh one more point i keep reminding people of,Cesar has NEVER said he is a dog trainer.
I do wonder how many of his criticts have ever even botherd to watch his show.*


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> So what if it is? That is no reason to close it. There could be other members who haven't even seen it yet and might want to have their say - Albert might even find some allies if he waits long enough.


Lol, okay, okay, persuaded.

Doesn't look like albert will find any allies, though (sorry, mate).

Since this is still going (and I know almost nothing about CM): have there been any animal welfare complaints about him in the US? Google will only tell me about his divorce and his official website


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> Lol, okay, okay, persuaded.
> 
> Doesn't look like albert will find any allies, though (sorry, mate).
> 
> Since this is still going (and I know almost nothing about CM): have there been any animal welfare complaints about him in the US? Google will only tell me about his divorce and his official website


are you on your way back to essex with sammy yet?


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

PS: Maybe I worded it wrong: I didn't mean "close" as in "no others can reply", just lay it to rest.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i accept your apology!


There wasnt one to accept  - I asked you for proof, you failed (abit like CM does) :lol: I said I will 'take peoples word'


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> are you on your way back to essex with sammy yet?


I wish, I wish


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Wasn't his show, or his tour banned on some European country?

I know Italy was trying.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *The lack of what you and others may call qualifications means naff all.My oldest son is a top mechanic but he's self taught.As for believing Cesar is a god,pmsl give some of us some credit.Oh one more point i keep reminding people of,Cesar has NEVER said he is a dog trainer.
> I do wonder how many of his criticts have ever even botherd to watch his show.*


as some one that was (shamefully) a supporter a few years ago I have seen enough to make my skin crawl


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

some positive things ive taken from ceaser are

i never shout at dogs,if im angry...........which i did!
i use positive energy around them,and understand a lot more how our energy effects them
i use one word commands
just a few to start with.....but id say positives!


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't tend to answer on these much, but the only thing that jumps out to me is supporters saying that they would only use some of his techniques. I understand that you have to mould the training to your dog as, in theory, you know your dog, but there are an awful lot (i would say 99.9%) of his techniques i would not use on my dog whereas i would not have any issues using any of victoria stillwells techniques.

If any trainer did half of what he does to my dog, they would be minus a limb or two.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *The lack of what you and others may call qualifications means naff all.My oldest son is a top mechanic but he's self taught.As for believing Cesar is a god,pmsl give some of us some credit.Oh one more point i keep reminding people of,Cesar has NEVER said he is a dog trainer.
> I do wonder how many of his criticts have ever even botherd to watch his show.*


No, he doesn't call himself a dog trainer. He calls himself a dog psychologist which is even worse, since he doesn't have a clue about dog behaviour or psychology.



Nonnie said:


> Wasn't his show, or his tour banned on some European country?
> 
> I know Italy was trying.


I think it was in Italy that they banned him. The UK had a huge petition but it seems to have died a death.

Oh, and for whoever asked (can't remember now) lots of animal welfare organisations in the States have spoken out against him.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> No, he doesn't call himself a dog trainer. He calls himself a dog psychologist which is even worse, since he doesn't have a clue about dog behaviour or psychology.
> 
> I think it was in Italy that they banned him. The UK had a huge petition but it seems to have died a death.
> 
> Oh, and for whoever asked (can't remember now) lots of animal welfare organisations in the States have spoken out against him.


to say he has no idea is just ridiculous,and discredits anything you say on this!


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Oh, and for whoever asked (can't remember now) lots of animal welfare organisations in the States have spoken out against him.


Ah, thanks. I have just found this online if people want to read what Ian Dunbar has to say about him:

Cesar Millan: The Dog Whisperer? The history, background and reputation of Cesar Millan.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> some positive things ive taken from ceaser are
> 
> i never shout at dogs,if im angry...........which i did!
> i use positive energy around them,and understand a lot more how our energy effects them
> ...


For once we agree. But there is a BUT! The positive energy idea has been around forever, though not called that. Shouting at dogs merely winds them up and puts up your own blood pressure and some breeds, like newfies, never get over it.

As to the last one, well, I think it is probably a good idea (not his idea, though) but I talk to mine just like I talked to my kids, but they seem to understand!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> For once we agree. But there is a BUT! The positive energy idea has been around forever, though not called that. Shouting at dogs merely winds them up and puts up your own blood pressure and some breeds, like newfies, never get over it.
> 
> As to the last one, well, I think it is probably a good idea (not his idea, though) but I talk to mine just like I talked to my kids, but they seem to understand!


im not saying there all his ideas,but its where i got them from,so has to be a good thing.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> to say he has no idea is just ridiculous,and discredits anything you say on this!


Well he doesn't have a clue. Take a scenario if you will. If a dog is acting out of character for whatever reason, any decent trainer or behaviourist will tell you to first get the dog checked by a vet. Does he ever even think of a medical cause? No, never.

There was a member on here a while back absolutely devastated that his usually well behaved a gentle rottie had bitten a member of his family. He thought he had turned aggressive and was talking about having him euthanised. We persuaded him to get a vet check and it turned out the dog was ill. So, medication and he is his old self again.

Anyone who thinks it is ok to drag a growing giant breed up a flight of stairs most definitely doesn't have a clue.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Well he doesn't have a clue. Take a scenario if you will. If a dog is acting out of character for whatever reason, any decent trainer or behaviourist will tell you to first get the dog checked by a vet. Does he ever even think of a medical cause? No, never.
> 
> There was a member on here a while back absolutely devastated that his usually well behaved a gentle rottie had bitten a member of his family. He thought he had turned aggressive and was talking about having him euthanised. We persuaded him to get a vet check and it turned out the dog was ill. So, medication and he is his old self again.
> 
> Anyone who thinks it is ok to drag a growing giant breed up a flight of stairs most definitely doesn't have a clue.


im afraid your wrong,he has said before about getting your dog checked out,but most of the dogs hes been to have long behavior issues

its t.v remember,a trip to the vets wouldnt be entertaining......i cant comment on every case as i havnt seen it,also,no ones saying hes perfect.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> im afraid your wrong,he has said before about getting your dog checked out,but *most of the dogs hes been to have long behavior issues*its t.v remember,a trip to the vets wouldnt be entertaining......i cant comment on every case as i havnt seen it,also,no ones saying hes perfect.


But does he ever ask when it started? What the dog always like that?

His idea is to force a dog to co-operate regardless, without bothering to look at the breed specifics or at underlying causes. I have personal reasons for strongly objecting to that cavalier attitude.

As I said earlier, one of my dogs has become frightened of the local field. I have no idea why, but I wouldn't try to force him in there as he is obviously frightened.

The St Bernard that he forced up the staircase was supposedly afraid of the stairs. I doubt it; he probably knew better than to try, just like mine have always done. Giant dogs do not do stairs, they are simply too big.

Newfies are very easily frightened and forcing into the scary situation would only make matters worse. Ferdie at this moment is nudging me under my arm while I am trying to type - I expect he is being dominant, not just wanting attention.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*For what its worth this subject is a bit like what one person thinks is right and another thinks its wrong.No different to how we all choose to raise our kids.*


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

It's funny how so many these so called dog trainers or what ever they want to call themselves are so quick to run CM down. Jealously springs to mind.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> It's funny how so many these so called dog trainers or what ever they want to call themselves are so quick to run CM down. Jealously springs to mind.


*I wonder too, how many on here can say they have achieved as much for dogs as he has.*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> It's funny how so many these so called dog trainers or what ever they want to call themselves are so quick to run CM down. Jealously springs to mind.


It has nothing to do with jealousy and everything to do with the damage he is doing. Victoria Stilwell has made a name and fortune out of dog training as well, and we all know that she is not really a trainer, but her methods do no harm to the dogs, even if she or the owners get them wrong. Nobody seems to be jealous of her.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Well he doesn't have a clue. Take a scenario if you will. If a dog is acting out of character for whatever reason, any decent trainer or behaviourist will tell you to first get the dog checked by a vet. Does he ever even think of a medical cause? No, never.
> 
> There was a member on here a while back absolutely devastated that his usually well behaved a gentle rottie had bitten a member of his family. He thought he had turned aggressive and was talking about having him euthanised. We persuaded him to get a vet check and it turned out the dog was ill. So, medication and he is his old self again.


Apart from that he died of a heart attack around two weeks later. RIP Marco. xxx


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I wonder too, how many on here can say they have achieved as much for dogs as he has.*


I dont think a trainer would want to admit it - Hes done alot of damage. - I dont think any trainer would even want to be compared to him.

Im no dog trainer, but to me I have achieved alot more than him - my dogs arent robots, but their trained and continue to be - in a positive manner. Anyone that can achieve that is ten times better than CM


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I dont think a trainer would want to admit it - Hes done alot of damage. - I dont think any trainer would even want to be compared to him.
> 
> Im no dog trainer, but to me I have achieved alot more than him - my dogs arent robots, but their trained and continue to be - in a positive manner. Anyone that can achieve that is ten times better than CM


*Kerry at 19,as you've said yourself you learnt a lot from your mum.Now i'm not judging here but Cesar learnt from his grandad.Now in all fairness who's to say who's right and who's wrong? Different people differnt ideas.Thats a FACT of life.*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Apart from that he died of a heart attack around two weeks later. RIP Marco. xxx


Really? I didn't know that. But it does prove my point, doesn't it? That dog was sick enough to die shortly after but their first thought was aggression. Poor old thing.



JANICE199 said:


> *Kerry at 19,as you've said yourself you learnt a lot from your mum.Now i'm not judging here but Cesar learnt from his grandad.Now in all fairness who's to say who's right and who's wrong? Different people differnt ideas.Thats a FACT of life.*


I could have learned from my dad, but I found out better stuff for myself. So he learned from his grandad, when was that I wonder? When everybody treated dogs that way because they knew no different I expect. So why doesn't he do some studying and get himself up to date? He could do a lot of good for dogs with his show, but he doesn't bother because he thinks he knows it all.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Kerry at 19,as you've said yourself you learnt a lot from your mum.Now i'm not judging here but Cesar learnt from his grandad.Now in all fairness who's to say who's right and who's wrong? Different people differnt ideas.Thats a FACT of life.*


I have learnt alot from mum and continue to do so,as well as trainers we have worked with..with our own dogs and them working with us for rescue. I have taught all 4 of my dogs myself, I have never had to result in using underhand methods. so at the little age of 19 I feel I have achieved alot more with my 4 that CM could with my babies.
no ones to say whos in the right and whos in the wrong - but for me anyone that can train a dog and be calm and positive while doing so is in the right, over them that wind the dogs up, and react to negative behaviour while using uncalled for methods.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I have learnt alot from mum and continue to do so,as well as trainers we have worked with..with our own dogs and them working with us for rescue. I have taught all 4 of my dogs myself, I have never had to result in using underhand methods. so at the little age of 19 I feel I have achieved alot more with my 4 that CM could with my babies.
> no ones to say whos in the right and whos in the wrong - but for me anyone that can train a dog and be calm and positive while doing so is in the right, over them that wind the dogs up, and react to negative behaviour while using uncalled for methods.


cm would argue his methods are positive!thats the point.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I have learnt alot from mum and continue to do so,as well as trainers we have worked with..with our own dogs and them working with us for rescue. I have taught all 4 of my dogs myself, I have never had to result in using underhand methods. so at the little age of 19 I feel I have achieved alot more with my 4 that CM could with my babies.
> no ones to say whos in the right and whos in the wrong - but for me anyone that can train a dog and be calm and positive while doing so is in the right, over them that wind the dogs up, and react to negative behaviour while using uncalled for methods.


*How many "red zone" cases have you had to deal with? Or cases where others have said the dog is beyond help?
Like it or not Cesar is not as bad as some will make out.But as you and others know on here,i won't be changing my oppinion of the guy to please others.*


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> cm would argue his methods are positive!thats the point.


But anyone with a brain cell know his methods are not positive  - How the hell can reacting to bad behaviour, nudging ect - be positive - the dog world really is going mad.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *How many "red zone" cases have you had to deal with? Or cases where others have said the dog is beyond help?
> Like it or not Cesar is not as bad as some will make out.But as you and others know on here,i won't be changing my oppinion of the guy to please others.*


this is a great point,most who dont like him,probably dont have to deal with these behaviors,as their dogs are brought up well balanced,a lot of the dogs cm goes to see are on the brink of being pts!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I wonder too, how many on here can say they have achieved as much for dogs as he has.*


If he treated any pooch of mine like he treated Shadow in that video, i'm afraid i would be tempted to knock him the **** out...


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> But anyone with a brain cell know his methods are not positive  - How the hell can reacting to bad behaviour, nudging ect - be positive - the dog world really is going mad.


ok,so lets say your out with your dog,on lead and it starts growling and lunging at another dog...what would you do?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> cm would argue his methods are positive!thats the point.


That is because he is not sure what positive training is.



JANICE199 said:


> *How many "red zone" cases have you had to deal with? Or cases where others have said the dog is beyond help?
> Like it or not Cesar is not as bad as some will make out.But as you and others know on here,i won't be changing my oppinion of the guy to please others.*


Red zone is a phrase invented by CM. It is really quite meaningless as a name for an aggressive dog, since most aggression is caused by fear. I am always suspicious of people who say the dog is beyond help. By whose standards, that is what I would like to know. Many people will give up on their dogs at the slightest hint of trouble, doesn't mean someone else can't help them.

There are members on here and one in particular springs to mind, who has a rescued gsd who is severely dog aggressive. She has worked so hard with her and she may never be able to fully trust her, but she is not saying the dog is beyond help.

I am sure nobody expects you to change your opinion of him. My goodness, we would have no one left to argue with!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *How many "red zone" cases have you had to deal with? Or cases where others have said the dog is beyond help?
> Like it or not Cesar is not as bad as some will make out.But as you and others know on here,i won't be changing my oppinion of the guy to please others.*


I 'personally' havent - but I have seen alot of people work with dog aggressive, and people aggressive dogs - with ONLY possive methods used, and had great success - 5 and half years down the line we still own one of the dogs took in as a dog/people aggressieve dog - The difference is we found the root of the 'issues' and once her trust was built up, training was simple - she now lives with a number of dogs happily, and accepts any fosters we have in - and as for people - well their best friend, thats what love, time and effort does. Once a dog gains trust in people - your on to a winner.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> ok,so lets say your out with your dog,on lead and it starts growling and lunging at another dog...what would you do?


I would ask them to sit, and keep them relaxed. Once that has been achieved and I had praised the behaviour I had asked for, I would continue to walk past the other dog, and do the same each time the dog acted in the same manner.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I would ask them to sit, and keep them relaxed. Once that has been achieved and I had praised the behaviour I had asked for, I would continue to walk past the other dog, and do the same each time the dog acted in the same manner.


sounds very easy on here,what if it wont sit,continues to lunge!!!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> sounds very easy on here,what if it wont sit,continues to lunge!!!


Then I walk in the other direction  - I dont 'force' the dog into a situation, when its already acting out of character.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Terence and I are just watching our first episode of CM. Can't say I am very impressed and Terence doesn't look like he thinks much of it either.

According to Cesar, I should have just pinned Terence to the floor and rolled him onto his tummy, because he just lunged forwards while we were playing with his squeeky toy? Is it aggression or is he trying to get his favourite toy? Hmmm.....


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> That is because he is not sure what positive training is.
> 
> Red zone is a phrase invented by CM. It is really quite meaningless as a name for an aggressive dog, since most aggression is caused by fear. I am always suspicious of people who say the dog is beyond help. By whose standards, that is what I would like to know. Many people will give up on their dogs at the slightest hint of trouble, doesn't mean someone else can't help them.
> 
> ...


*I'm sure it wasn't invented by Cesar but its probably become associated with him.As for those that have said the dogs are beyond help,there are far too many.
The last part of your post made me chuckle.......god you lot know me too well.*


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> this is a great point,most who dont like him,probably dont have to deal with these behaviors,as their dogs are brought up well balanced,a lot of the dogs cm goes to see are on the brink of being pts!


Not that one again! If indeed they are on the brink of being pts, I would say that the owners haven't tried hard enough. And any positive trainer could have sorted the dog out - why does he get all this praise for saving a dog from being pts, like he is the only one that can do it?



albert 1970 said:


> ok,so lets say your out with your dog,on lead and it starts growling and lunging at another dog...what would you do?





albert 1970 said:


> sounds very easy on here,what if it wont sit,continues to lunge!!!


I would turn around and walk away, or cross the road and continue walking past. Is there another way?


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Is there another way?


Strangulation and giving the mutt a kicking it would seem...


----------



## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Just saw one of CM's own pack cower away from him!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> Just saw one of CM's own pack cower away from him!


I like the thought of...



> dogs are not the egoists they are made out to be. Rather, they are constantly making behavioral decisions in an effort to keep both their inner landscape and the outer, social landscape stable. Their interactions are about finding and making trade-offs that will lead to mutually acceptable compromises rather than winner takes all


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> It has nothing to do with jealousy and everything to do with the damage he is doing. Victoria Stilwell has made a name and fortune out of dog training as well, and we all know that she is not really a trainer, but her methods do no harm to the dogs, even if she or the owners get them wrong. Nobody seems to be jealous of her.


I like Victoria she has done a lot of good things for dogs, but none of her methods helped me with Dillon, he was still a complete idiot.

I have never really been a fan of CM most of you may remember some of the things I've said about him in the past, but watching him has helped me with Dillon where no one else has. Even taking him to see a behaviourist here was a compete waste of time and money.

I'm not saying CM is prefect by any means, but then none of the others are either.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> Just saw one of CM's own pack cower away from him!


Thats because he gets his best results, when using 'fear' as a tool for training.


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Not that one again! If indeed they are on the brink of being pts, I would say that the owners haven't tried hard enough. And any positive trainer could have sorted the dog out - why does he get all this praise for saving a dog from being pts, like he is the only one that can do it?
> 
> I would turn around and walk away, or cross the road and continue walking past. Is there another way?


maybe other trainers would sort the problem too,not saying they wouldnt!...this strangling thing is being so blown out its ridiculous...cm will usually do what most of you are saying,and get the dog to sit!


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## Honey Bee (Mar 29, 2011)

I would just like to say that this is the most calm and reasoned debate I have seen thus far on here regarding CM, so I am going to make these points. 

I have watched a few of the videos posted several times and I have come to the conclusion that there is a certain amount of apprehension in the way that CM approaches the dogs, especially the larger aggressive ones. In the case of the Great Dane where the clip was cut before he appeared to be going to kick out at the dogs head, before he did this he was backing away, even if this was only slightly. His body language does not come across as calm and assertive but rather tense and aggitated. There are also a couple of times when the Malamute stopped and sat but instead of releasing the strangle hold on the lead he kept the dogs head in the air. I'm not surprised it started fighting again. 

Maybe he is just doing it for effect to increase his shows ratings and make himself look good and his results spectacular or maybe he is genuinely scared. Maybe he has set himself up as the great god of dog training and when things go wrong he does these things because of lack of confidence or even experience. It strikes me that only a coward would react to the dogs in some of the ways he does. 

Before you ask me what I would do, I am not a dog trainer, I have never professed to be and I have not set myself up as such. I am just putting forward some observations.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> I like Victoria she has done a lot of good things for dogs, but none of her methods helped me with Dillon, he was still a complete idiot.
> 
> I have never really been a fan of CM most of you may remember some of the things I've said about him in the past, but watching him has helped me with Dillon where no one else has. Even taking him to see a behaviourist here was a compete waste of time and money.
> 
> I'm not saying CM is prefect by any means, but then none of the others are either.


nail on head id say!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> this strangling thing is being so blown out its ridiculous...


So you would do that with your dog then?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Honey Bee said:


> I would just like to say that this is the most calm and reasoned debate I have seen thus far on here regarding CM, so I am going to make these points.
> 
> I have watched a few of the videos posted several times and I have come to the conclusion that there is a certain amount of apprehension in the way that CM approaches the dogs, especially the larger aggressive ones. In the case of the Great Dane where the clip was cut before he appeared to be going to kick out at the dogs head, before he did this he was backing away, even if this was only slightly. His body language does not come across as calm and assertive but rather tense and aggitated. There are also a couple of times when the Malamute stopped and sat but instead of releasing the strangle hold on the lead he kept the dogs head in the air. I'm not surprised it started fighting again.
> 
> ...


*once again i will add...Cesar has NEVER said he is a dog trainer,so you both have something in common.*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

jon bda said:


> So you would do that with your dog then?


my dog isnt out of control,and biting me!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> maybe other trainers would sort the problem too,not saying they wouldnt!...this strangling thing is being so blown out its ridiculous...cm will usually do what most of you are saying,and get the dog to sit!


Yeah and we have all seen how he trains a dog to sit. - Shoving the bum to the floor 

- I fail to see how the strangling of the poor dog is being 'blown out its ridiculous' - no matter who done that to a dog its disgusting, uncalled for and quite frank shows CMs disrespect with regards to dogs - that dog is left collapsed on the floor struggling to breath! anyone that feels that is acceptable, is just as bad as the person treating the dog like that. The lead is so tight around the dogs head that its right under the cheek bones, and couldnt be tighter if he wanted.
- Vets reported have confirmed to all, just how dangerous that scene was.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *once again i will add...Cesar has NEVER said he is a dog trainer*


TBH, i wouldn't let him walk my dog...


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> this is a great point,most who dont like him,probably dont have to deal with these behaviors,as their dogs are brought up well balanced,a lot of the dogs cm goes to see are on the brink of being pts!


Noo (black) and Buki (Grey) were both extremely dog aggressive when they first got here. A few months in and we got to this stage...










Noo was also people aggressive. Some time later, I trust him enough to do this...










As an aside- Tamba, the other moot in the picture was a massive resource guarder when he arrived. By that point, I could walk around with a treat bag on and knew he wouldn't lash out at other dogs/people if they dared to sniff it.

All of them were re-trained using positive methods.


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

I suppose Cesar Milan forcing a poor Riley up a set of stairs is blown out of proportion too! I know what I'm seeing there, and I certainly aint positive

The man is a complete joke and I wouldn't want him near my Dog.... As for not being a Dog trainer! What the hell is he then????? I can't swim, so I don't call meself a swimmer, or even profess to know what I am doing when it comes to swimming

Would you force your Dog upstairs?????


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Snuggles said:


> Noo (black) and Buki (Grey) were both extremely dog aggressive when they first got here. A few months in and we got to this stage...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thats great,ive said loads of times..i use psitive treat training with albert,im not against it...my point is cm,has a lot to offer too!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yeah and we have all seen how he trains a dog to sit. - Shoving the bum to the floor
> 
> - I fail to see how the strangling of the poor dog is being 'blown out its ridiculous' - no matter who done that to a dog its disgusting, uncalled for and quite frank shows CMs disrespect with regards to dogs - that dog is left collapsed on the floor struggling to breath! anyone that feels that is acceptable, is just as bad as the person treating the dog like that. The lead is so tight around the dogs head that its right under the cheek bones, and couldnt be tighter if he wanted.
> - Vets reported have confirmed to all, just how dangerous that scene was.


the dog was attacking him ffs lol!!


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## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

It always says on his shows that "Do NOT attempt any of these training methods without a qualified dog trainer to show you how".

You cannot blame the show for silly people. Its like blaming a film with lots of voilence for a how a kid behaves.

He deals with alot of dangerous dogs on his show. So if it appears to be handled in a dangerous way, how else would you deal with them?

How many ways are there to train an aggressive dangerous dog exactly?

He doesnt encourage people to do it themselves quite the opposite from what i have seen.

I think he is a good trainer. As alot of the trainers in my area wouldnt touch those dogs with a 100ft barg pole. ESP pitts!

Its all in difference of opinion anyway. EVERYONE is different! 

BTW I LOVE THE PIC OF ALBERT! Lovely looking dog!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> the dog was attacking him ffs lol!!


Was that before or after he tried to pull his head off?


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> the dog was attacking him ffs lol!!


The Dog was reacting to having his head near pulled off! That's clear to see.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

MissShelley said:


> The Dog was reacting to having his head near pulled off! That's clear to see.


he was there cos the dog was out of control,plain and simple..a very aggresive dog...which attacked him....which he dealt with!!!simple,well done i say!most would of dropped the lead...then what would of happened...we wouldnt be talking about a little bit of rough pulling on a lead!!!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I like Victoria she has done a lot of good things for dogs, but none of her methods helped me with Dillon, he was still a complete idiot.
> 
> I have never really been a fan of CM most of you may remember some of the things I've said about him in the past, but watching him has helped me with Dillon where no one else has. Even taking him to see a behaviourist here was a compete waste of time and money.
> 
> I'm not saying CM is prefect by any means, but then none of the others are either.


VS methods do no harm, though, do they?



albert 1970 said:


> the dog was attacking him ffs lol!!


You would attack him if he treated you like that as well. The dog wasn't attacking anyone till he came along.



Howlet said:


> It always says on his shows that "Do NOT attempt any of these training methods *without a qualified dog trainer to show you how".*You cannot blame the show for silly people. Its like blaming a film with lots of voilence for a how a kid behaves.
> 
> He deals with alot of dangerous dogs on his show. So if it appears to be handled in a dangerous way, how else would you deal with them?
> 
> ...


A qualified dog trainer would neither know how, nor want to know how. He or she would be able to train the dog as it should be done.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> he was there cos the dog was out of control,plain and simple..a very aggresive dog...which attacked him....which he dealt with!!!simple,well done i say!most would of dropped the lead...then what would of happened...we wouldnt be talking about a little bit of rough pulling on a lead!!!!


That has to be the most halfwitted reply i have read on this thread so far...


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> the dog was attacking him ffs lol!!


But why? Because it was the reaction to the not so needed nudge from behind


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> he was there cos the dog was out of control,plain and simple..a very aggresive dog...which attacked him....which he dealt with!!!simple,well done i say!most would of dropped the lead...then what would of happened...we wouldnt be talking about a little bit of rough pulling on a lead!!!!


But he started his rough handling when the dog WASN'T BEING AGGRESSIVE! In other words, he was punishing the dog for being calm. He didn't become aggressive till after that.

So what message does that give the dog? And what message is it giving all the viewers? That aggressive dogs are nasty, not fearful as most of them are.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

albert dear, i would like it if you didn't send me pm's calling me a mug thanks...
:lol:


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Red zone cases are only red zone because Cesar puts them in a situation that makes them react. Otherwise, you may walk past them in the street without any inclination they are 'aggressive'.

I deal with a lot of 'difficult' dogs; I have 'saved' dogs from pts, too. The cases he deals with are, sadly, not unique. Many dogs suffer with similar problems.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> But why? Because it was the reaction to the not so needed nudge from behind


the nudge was because the behavior was starting....the dod was aggresive,thats why he was there,thats why they introduced the other dog....to see the behavior,and try and deal with it!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> the nudge was because the behavior was starting....the dod was aggresive,thats why he was there,thats why they introduced the other dog....to see the behavior,and try and deal with it!


what ever he was trying to achieve - he failed as a 'trainer', he failed the dog and its owners.


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> he was there cos the dog was out of control,plain and simple..a very aggresive dog...which attacked him....which he dealt with!!!simple,well done i say!most would of dropped the lead...then what would of happened...we wouldnt be talking about a little bit of rough pulling on a lead!!!!


Anyone with an ounce of sense wouldn't of pushed the poor Dog into a situation he was clearly not ready for in his training development.

Had that Dog had been mine I would of read the situation, watched my Dogs body language, if he showed aggression then turn around and walk the other way. It's not rocket science.

And I'm not being funny, but how well did that Dog know Cesar Milan? Because if he was anything like Max was he had a habit of not listening to people he didn't trust


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## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> VS methods do no harm, though, do they?
> 
> You would attack him if he treated you like that as well. The dog wasn't attacking anyone till he came along.
> 
> A qualified dog trainer would neither know how, nor want to know how. He or she would be able to train the dog as it should be done.


A qualified dog trainer in my area would not touch a dangerous dog! They labeled my dog as a write off and wanted him destroyed! I had a dog psychologist use these methods on him and he was as good as gold.

The dog had mental health issues that a trainer could not fix!

I cannot understand the fuss over the dog apparently being stangled on the lead. I have seen dogs do far worse to themselves when being taken for a walk. Should these people have the right to own a dog taken away?


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> what ever he was trying to achieve - he failed as a 'trainer', he failed the dog and its owners.


ok,in your opinion!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Tell you what, everyone in this thread that has kids...










...thats the guy thats going to sort your kids out...acceptable???


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> ok,in your opinion!


Please dont tell me you actually think he actually achieved something with the husky, and for its owners. 

- come on albert, anyone with even half a brain cell can see all was failed at his hands.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

MissShelley said:


> Anyone with an ounce of sense wouldn't of pushed the poor Dog into a situation he was clearly not ready for in his training development.
> 
> Had that Dog had been mine I would of read the situation, watched my Dogs body language, if he showed aggression then turn around and walk the other way. It's not rocket science.
> 
> And I'm not being funny, but how well did that Dog know Cesar Milan? Because if he was anything like Max was he had a habit of not listening to people he didn't trust


that would be a sensible way of dealing with it!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

jon bda said:


> Tell you what, everyone in this thread that has kids...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tut Tut - copy right!


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## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Please dont tell me you actually think he actually achieved something with the husky, and for its owners.
> 
> - come on albert, anyone with even half a brain cell can see all was failed at his hands.


This is a difference of an opinion matter i think and request that this thread be closed before it turns into a flaming match.

Some people liked steve irwin. some did not. Some people like this dog trainer. some do not.

Some people prefer tea instead of coffee, some do not!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Please dont tell me you actually think he actually achieved something with the husky, and for its owners.
> 
> - come on albert, anyone with even half a brain cell can see all was failed at his hands.


tbh i havnt seen what it achieved,did the dog stop doing it?i dont know,as for my brain,half a brain would be generous for me!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> that would be a sensible way of dealing with it!


Better than dangling the poor dog from its lead...


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Howlet said:


> This is a difference of an opinion matter i think and request that this thread be closed before it turns into a flaming match.
> 
> Some people liked steve irwin. some did not. Some people like this dog trainer. some do not.
> 
> Some people prefer tea instead of coffee, some do not!


Flipping heck - you can have a disagreement with someone with out each thread being shut.
and as for Steve hes just as much as a prat as CM for winding animals up


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Howlet said:


> This is a difference of an opinion matter i think and request that this thread be closed before it turns into a flaming match.
> 
> Some people liked steve irwin. some did not. Some people like this dog trainer. some do not.
> 
> Some people prefer tea instead of coffee, some do not!


i think most have conducted themselves properly,only one came on to throw insults!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


jon bda said:



TBH, i wouldn't let him walk my dog...

Click to expand...

I would trust him with my dogs..But hey it wouldn't be the real world if we all thought the same.



MissShelley said:



The Dog was reacting to having his head near pulled off! That's clear to see.

Click to expand...

:lol::lol::lol: tut tut,PLEASE don't exagerate.*


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> tbh i havnt seen what it achieved,did the dog stop doing it?i dont know,as for my brain,half a brain would be generous for me!


The dog stopped because it physically COULDNT fight back no more, the dog has shut down, and apart from that couldnt breath. - no trainer should be proud of achieving that. 
- a quater of a brain cell would be good for you!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> i think most have conducted themselves properly,only one came on to throw insults!


You sent me a pm calling me a mug???


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## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

Oh i loved steve irwin! 

He was a twit at times but his heart was in the right place! He spent his life bringing animals in the spotlight!

Annoying but nice 

And im a tea drinker! *sips tea*


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I would trust him with my dogs..*


No comment tbh...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Howlet said:


> This is a difference of an opinion matter i think and request that this thread be closed before it turns into a flaming match.
> 
> Some people liked steve irwin. some did not. Some people like this dog trainer. some do not.
> 
> Some people prefer tea instead of coffee, some do not!


So like butter some don't!

threads such as this have been posted many a time!
This one seems mild compared to those I have seen in the past!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Howlet said:


> And im a tea drinker! *sips tea*


Im a vodka drinker if your offering


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

jon bda said:


> You sent me a pm calling me a mug???


you insulted me,i kept it to pm,as to not ruin a thread with childish insults....i wont reply to anything else you say!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> you insulted me,i kept it to pm,as to not ruin a thread with childish insults....i wont reply to anything else you say!


Thanks, does that mean your not going to post any more ballcocks about CM having a clue about what he's doing?


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## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

DT said:


> So like butter some don't!
> 
> threads such as this have been posted many a time!
> This one seems mild compared to those I have seen in the past!


One wonders why these threads keep being posted. Why not just search them?

Vodka??? Hmmmm im a wine drinker (when i havent just had a hangover )
Now the thought of drink makes me gag.

Tea for me


----------



## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

DT said:


> So like butter some don't!
> 
> threads such as this have been posted many a time!
> This one seems mild compared to those I have seen in the past!


Very mild infact DT lol

Im not saying I agree with Ceasar Millan or not but its just the same as bringing up children. People have different ideas over what works and whats exceptable, we are all different.


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## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

This is turning into a slagging match now


----------



## feathered bird lover (May 23, 2011)

just joined in as i said before, in a very similar thread, c.m. is a bit of eye candy though, well to some of courses not to all, lol.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Howlet said:


> This is turning into a slagging match now


Why, have you been getting pm's off albert as well...


----------



## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

Wolf whistles n wiggles eyebrows


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> :lol::lol::lol: tut tut,PLEASE don't exagerate.*


This man pulling poor Riley the St Bernard up a staircase isn't an exaggeration  Everybody should know that you do not pull a Dog, the delicate part of his throat is so easy to damage.

I did post this a few pages back, there it is again to save you looking 

Poor Riley


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

feathered bird lover said:


> just joined in as i said before, in a very similar thread, c.m. is a bit of eye candy though, well to some of courses not to all, lol.


some clearly like the grubby look :lol:


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

ClaireLouise said:


> Very mild infact DT lol
> 
> Im not saying I agree with Ceasar Millan or not but its just the same as bringing up children. People have different ideas over what works and whats exceptable, we are all different.


lightweights


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> the nudge was because the behavior was starting....the dod was aggresive,thats why he was there,thats why they introduced the other dog....to see the behavior,and try and deal with it!


So this dog was dog aggressive, so they bring in a total stranger with an aggessive stance and at the same time introduce another dog. This total stranger then nudges the dog from behind (should never touch a dog you don't know from behind) which all caused the aggression to start. Well I wonder why? Perhaps he was bloody scared, wouldn't you be?



Howlet said:


> A qualified dog trainer in my area would not touch a dangerous dog! They labeled my dog as a write off and wanted him destroyed! I had a dog psychologist use these methods on him and he was as good as gold.
> 
> The dog had mental health issues that a trainer could not fix!
> 
> I cannot understand the fuss over the dog apparently being stangled on the lead. *I have seen dogs do far worse to themselves when being taken for a walk.* Should these people have the right to own a dog taken away?


A proper dog psychologist would never use these sorts of methods. Did you see the credentials? Find out what associatian he or she belonged to? Or was it just someone calling themselves a dog psychologist? If the dog had mental health issues, he should have been with a vet, not a trainer.



Devil-Dogz said:


> Please dont tell me you actually think he actually achieved something with the husky, and for its owners.
> 
> - come on albert, anyone with even half a brain cell can see all was failed at his hands.


We will never know, will we? The show only goes to the bit where CM says he is calm submissive, when we all know he is shut down, and that is all we hear about all his cases. Nobody ever follows up to tell us how they are doing like they frequently do on VS shows.



Howlet said:


> This is a difference of an opinion matter i think and request that this thread be closed before it turns into a flaming match.
> 
> Some people liked steve irwin. some did not. Some people like this dog trainer. some do not.
> 
> Some people prefer tea instead of coffee, some do not!


With all due respect, I like to welcome new members, but you have a damned cheek. You have only been here five minutes and are already trying to get perfectly civilised threads closed down. If it upsets you, don't read it.



albert 1970 said:


> tbh i havnt seen what it achieved,did the dog stop doing it?i dont know,as for my brain,half a brain would be generous for me!


None of us do, that is the point.


----------



## Honey Bee (Mar 29, 2011)

Howlet said:


> This is turning into a slagging match now


And you were all doing so well. I'm so disappointed! lol


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

What a shame, this thread was going so well.

Pity others cant respect differing views without it getting petty.

Why rise to the bait?


----------



## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

MissShelley said:


> This man pulling poor Riley the St Bernard up a staircase isn't an exaggeration  Everybody should know that you do not pull a Dog, the delicate part of his throat is so easy to damage.
> 
> I did post this a few pages back, there it is again to save you looking
> 
> Poor Riley


I have seen dogs do far worse pulling on the lead down my road. The dogs sounds like a steam train from gagging.

What should be done about this?

A dog is a pack animal. If this dog disobeyed his pack leader this way he would of got a good hiding to put them in his place.

As far as i can tell that is what ceaser did. 
Seriously though. I have seen dogs drag there owners down the road choking. Cant hurt that much if they inflict it on themselves


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> We will never know, will we? The show only goes to the bit where CM says he is calm submissive, when we all know he is shut down, and that is all we hear about all his cases. Nobody ever follows up to tell us how they are doing like they frequently do on VS shows.


wasnt there one case where an owner had their dog PTS following the show claiming CM made matters worse, and there really was no way forward.

- and didnt someone once post on here about someone trying to sue CM?

*Please tell me I havent been dreaming again*


----------



## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> So this dog was dog aggressive, so they bring in a total stranger with an aggessive stance and at the same time introduce another dog. This total stranger then nudges the dog from behind (should never touch a dog you don't know from behind) which all caused the aggression to start. Well I wonder why? Perhaps he was bloody scared, wouldn't you be?
> 
> A proper dog psychologist would never use these sorts of methods. Did you see the credentials? Find out what associatian he or she belonged to? Or was it just someone calling themselves a dog psychologist? If the dog had mental health issues, he should have been with a vet, not a trainer.
> 
> ...


Good god take your happy pill! Do not insult me! I did not engage you or call you names now did i?


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Howlet said:


> A dog is a pack animal. If this dog disobeyed his pack leader this way he would of got a good hiding to put them in his place.
> 
> As far as i can tell that is what ceaser did.
> Seriously though. I have seen dogs drag there owners down the road choking. Cant hurt that much if they inflict it on themselves


Please tell me you do not own a dog...


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> wasnt there one case where an owner had their dog PTS following the show claiming CM made matters worse, and there really was no way forward.
> 
> - and didnt someone once post on here about someone trying to sue CM?
> 
> *Please tell me I havent been dreaming again*


They settled out of court DD! dunno if it were the one where the dog bit the owner after CM used the shock collar!


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Howlet said:


> A dog is a pack animal. If this dog disobeyed his pack leader this way he would of got a good hiding to put them in his place.


No they aren't and no they don't.

This is why so many people dislike and disagree with his methods as they are based on flawed, outdated, and disproved studies.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Howlet said:


> Good god take your happy pill! Do not insult me! I did not engage you or call you names now did i?


you are very vocal! for someone with such a low post count!


----------



## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

jon bda said:


> Please tell me you do not own a dog...


I did but do not now. Im not saying that is right and just saying that is what i have seen!

A dog should be treated part of the family with respect. And trained to respect its owners. Not drag itself and its owner down the street till it has an anorism how ever you spell it


----------



## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

I am watching another episode of Cm (research, you see) and he just used a prong collar.

All this chat about dominance and being the leader is starting to get on my bits.

And I can't remember you posted this before, but I agree that he does come across a bit hesitant and even fearful and not the calm and positive energy owner he says everybody should be.

Just observations.
Discuss... 

PS: A film producer sued him over animal cruelty in 2006.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jon bda said:


> Thanks, does that mean your not going to post any more ballcocks about CM having a clue about what he's doing?


*Oh come on now, was there any need yo say that? For once we had a decent debate going about my guy and its going down hill.Whats said in pm should stay in pm.*


----------



## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

And since when does amount of posts increase a persons worth on this forum? I joined to voice my opinions. Should i not do so?

My opinions in your mind may be wrong but shouldnt i have the right to excersise my rights?

Or would you have me shut up?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> I am watching another episode of Cm (research, you see) and he just used a prong collar.
> 
> All this chat about dominance and being the leader is starting to get on my bits.
> 
> ...


did they settle out of court for $30,000?
As bonnie tyler would say!
T'is all coming back to me now!


----------



## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

Howlet said:


> I have seen dogs do far worse pulling on the lead down my road. The dogs sounds like a steam train from gagging.
> 
> What should be done about this?
> 
> ...


I wouldn't know as I have never been dragged down a road by a lead and collar, it certainly doesn't look comfortable that's for sure, and it's something I have never done to my Dog, if he ever pulled me we'd stop, and walk the other way... He'd be rewarded for walking nicely, if he pulled again, then we'd repeat. Training should be patient and consistent.

Yep, dogs are pack animals, but pack theory training is another debate altogether, and proper trainer and behaviourists do not advocate it.

You can train your Dog without fear and aggression... I want my Dog to be happy and enjoy working for me. Training should be enjoyable for Dog and owner


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Howlet said:


> A dog should be treated part of the family with respect


And what has been posted is a dog/dogs being treated with respect?


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Howlet said:


> And since when does amount of posts increase a persons worth on this forum? I joined to voice my opinions. Should i not do so?
> 
> My opinions in your mind may be wrong but shouldnt i have the right to excersise my rights?
> 
> Or would you have me shut up?


*Yes please..............................pmsl just kidding.*


----------



## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

What on earth happened on this thread????? I cant believe how long it is??? I only went ot read me book for a few hours?????














Scoots off t read first unread post - see ya in the morning!!!!


----------



## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

jon bda said:


> And what has been posted is a dog/dogs being treated with respect?


Please can you explain what you mean? Sorry i do not understand.

Do you mean this is what the whole thread is about?

Im being honest here. Please explain


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Howlet said:


> I have seen dogs do far worse pulling on the lead down my road. The dogs sounds like a steam train from gagging.
> 
> What should be done about this?
> 
> ...


If a dog wants to pull until he chokes that is his choice. Not that it is good for him and can cause a lot of damage, and people should either train their dogs to walk properly or use suitable aids. That is entirely different to dragging a heavy dog against his will. We are also talking about a growing giant breed who should not even be allowed to climb a step never mind a flight of stairs. They are delicate and he probably did severe damage to his joints.



Devil-Dogz said:


> wasnt there one case where an owner had their dog PTS following the show claiming CM made matters worse, and there really was no way forward.
> 
> - and didnt someone once post on here about someone trying to sue CM?
> 
> *Please tell me I havent been dreaming again*


There were a couple I believe who had to have their dogs pts after he had been there because of his treatment. They turned aggressive. One was rehomed, trained properly and last I heard he was fine.

The one who tried to sue him (well the only one I have read about) was a goldie owner who left his dog with CM to board and he got severely injured and no medical treatment was sought. I think it left the dog with permanent damage.



Howlet said:


> Good god take your happy pill! Do not insult me! I did not engage you or call you names now did i?


I am not insulting you, neither am I calling you names. Why would you even suppose that? To my mind if you don't like the way a thread is going you stop reading it, not try to tell everyone else what to do by asking for it to be closed.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Howlet said:


> And since when does amount of posts increase a persons worth on this forum? I joined to voice my opinions. Should i not do so?
> 
> My opinions in your mind may be wrong but shouldnt i have the right to excersise my rights?
> 
> Or would you have me shut up?


not a problem voicing ones opinions! thats what forums are all about!
Asking to have a thread closed because you
A either don't agree with theose opinions
or
b because you feel it has become abusive

how would you know the tolerence of the forum - you being a new member like!


----------



## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Yes please..............................pmsl just kidding.*


Looks affronted! Well i never! *hand accross chest*


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Howlet said:


> Please can you explain what you mean? Sorry i do not understand


Then i suggest you look at the videos relating to cm's 'training' methods posted on this thread, and explain to me exactly where the respect is...but seeing as you've been a member of this forum before...i'm sure you know how it works...


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Howlet said:


> Looks affronted! Well i never! *hand accross chest*


*Just stick to ya guns and you'll do just fine....Seems like you've got a sence of humour so thats got to be a plus...............well it is for me.*


----------



## Honey Bee (Mar 29, 2011)

feathered bird lover said:


> just joined in as i said before, in a very similar thread, c.m. is a bit of eye candy though, well to some of courses not to all, lol.


All I have to say is "doggy dentures!" :lol:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Honey Bee said:


> All I have to say is "doggy dentures!" :lol:


*Yeah like 99.9% of famous people.*


----------



## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

I have to say, it appears that people dont like CM's methods, hmm. 

Well, when we first had rotties, we trained them in a big hall every Sunday afternoon, there would anything up to 40 rotties of all ages - and remember this was in the 80's when temperaments were a lot more, erm how shall I word it - stronger, than today. We never used any treats/food as a reward, the dogs got a verbal praise and a pat. Every single one of them wore a check chain and they got 'checked' for misbehaving. Nothing serious ever happened, EVER!! 

I know for a fact this way of training is frowned upon now and many would have their arms up in the air 'shock!! Horror' 

Yet everyone of those rotties was well-adjusted and happy.

Differing methods and opinions will always exist, its good to debate, and compare. I think the main thing I got from Cm is his mind of matter thing - its down to your attitude and presence more than anything, and I think he is correct.


----------



## Howlet (Aug 27, 2011)

Right i have gotta go peeps.Work at 5. Gotta love ya n leave ya!

Bubui


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

ok ok ive stayed out of this debate for the day...
my views are that cm has some great ideas as in with energy passing to your dog, if your stressed they are stressed, yeah im sure most knew this but i didnt till cm mentioned it
i dont agree with his use of pulling a dog by the lead onto his hind legs though, was this dog aggressive before hand as in before cm got there??
i dont know..
5i prefer the rewarding method myself and luckily this method has worked well for me and all of my boys over the years...
i think some things i agree with some things i dont
isnt that life though?????


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> I have to say, it appears that people dont like CM's methods, hmm.
> 
> Well, when we first had rotties, we trained them in a big hall every Sunday afternoon, there would anything up to 40 rotties of all ages - and remember this was in the 80's when temperaments were a lot more, erm how shall I word it - stronger, than today. We never used any treats/food as a reward, the dogs got a verbal praise and a pat. Every single one of them wore a check chain and they got 'checked' for misbehaving. Nothing serious ever happened, EVER!!
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with pats and praise instead of treats. Mine have usually got that most of the time. I bet you didn't hang your dogs up by their check chains though, did you? I don't like to see dogs checked with their chains, and had a flaming row with my daughter when I saw her do it.

But we always used chains years ago, though not the checking bit. It was supposed to stop them pulling but didn't stop my retriever from breaking my arm!


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

axl said:


> my views are that cm has some great ideas as in with energy passing to your dog


Thats a given...your dog is a part of you, it knows whats going on with you as well as you can detect whats going on with it. I still fail to see how strangling a dog is going to work...


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

jon bda said:


> Thats a given...your dog is a part of you, it knows whats going on with you as well as you can detect whats going on with it. I still fail to see how strangling a dog is going to work...


oi quote the lot next time tut tut
:lol:
i didnt agree with it... i doubt anyone does to be honest


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I think so many people think reward training = throw food constantly at the dog. Which just shows their lack of research and understanding.


----------



## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Nothing wrong with pats and praise instead of treats. Mine have usually got that most of the time. I bet you didn't hang your dogs up by their check chains though, did you? I don't like to see dogs checked with their chains, and had a flaming row with my daughter when I saw her do it.
> 
> But we always used chains years ago, though not the checking bit. It was supposed to stop them pulling but didn't stop my retriever from breaking my arm!


Ooh ,someone else whjo doesnt treat - I thought I must be only person left on the bloody planet, lol!!

No, I do use check chains properly, I still have them for my males, big strong boys they are, lol! To use them at their best advantage I shove them up right to the top of the neck and have them tight, but obv not pulling tight, if you understand that. I swear my big lads dont feel them anyway - they puff them selves up, lol!!


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> Ooh ,someone else whjo doesnt treat - I thought I must be only person left on the bloody planet, lol!!
> 
> No, I do use check chains properly, I still have them for my males, big strong boys they are, lol! To use them at their best advantage I shove them up right to the top of the neck and have them tight, but obv not pulling tight, if you understand that. I swear my big lads dont feel them anyway - they puff them selves up, lol!!


i use a slip lead for my girl! she pulls like a train! BUT she isn't really used to a lead so my fault! off the lead she will walk nicely by my side! BUT! I would never trust this on a road! it only takes one distraction!


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> I think so many people think reward training = throw food constantly at the dog. Which just shows their lack of research and understanding.


To right! - my BC works much better off being rewarded with his fav toy, and silly cuddles  Theres SO many ways you can reward positive behaviour.


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Ceearott said:


> Ooh ,someone else whjo doesnt treat - I thought I must be only person left on the bloody planet, lol!!
> 
> No, I do use check chains properly, I still have them for my males, big strong boys they are, lol! To use them at their best advantage I shove them up right to the top of the neck and have them tight, but obv not pulling tight, if you understand that. I swear my big lads dont feel them anyway - they puff them selves up, lol!!


*waves hands*

Ive never used treats either!


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Ooh ,someone else whjo doesnt treat - I thought I must be only person left on the bloody planet, lol!!
> 
> No, I do use check chains properly, I still have them for my males, big strong boys they are, lol! To use them at their best advantage I shove them up right to the top of the neck and have them tight, but obv not pulling tight, if you understand that. I swear my big lads dont feel them anyway - they puff them selves up, lol!!


I usually don't have any treats handy at the right time, so they have always made do with a fuss and a good boy, even when housetraining. Depends what I want from them though, to be honest. Ferdie won't come back to me for anything other than livercake!


----------



## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

DT said:


> i use a slip lead for my girl! she pulls like a train! BUT she isn't really used to a lead so my fault! off the lead she will walk nicely by my side! BUT! I would never trust this on a road! it only takes one distraction!


Aye, I dont like them slip leads TBH. They all have lovely leather and brass half checks, apart from Darla who has her own special bling bling half check - courtesy of my OH

Its only when I go to shows and training that I put the full check on the boys.

I am so glad to hear of others who dont think I am an alien for not 'reward training' with food, lol! I remember getting Cleo, turning up at puppy ob classes and the trainer (now a good friend, lol!) said wheres ya food? I was like - what food?? PMSL!!


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> To right! - my BC works much better off being rewarded with his fav toy, and silly cuddles  Theres SO many ways you can reward positive behaviour.


Neither of mine are interested in food outside of the house which is where i did 99% of my training.

Oscar i used a toy as he is highly play motivated, and Alfie will do anything for praise.

I use treats for stuff like paw, sit ups, speak etc. But i dont view that as proper training.


----------



## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Terence isn't very food-driven (apart from cheese cubes), so we only ever use praise and cuddles. Our neighbours probably thought we were bonkers when we started with the toilet training and kept going "good boy, wee wee in the garden, good boy". Lol.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Ooh ,someone else whjo doesnt treat - I thought I must be only person left on the bloody planet, lol!!
> 
> No, I do use check chains properly, I still have them for my males, big strong boys they are, lol! To use them at their best advantage I shove them up right to the top of the neck and have them tight, but obv not pulling tight, if you understand that. I swear my big lads dont feel them anyway - they puff them selves up, lol!!


I think the most danger with check chains is that in the wrong hands they are "choke chains". Then there are the ignorant who will see one on a rottie and go put one on their greyhound which can cause irreperable damage, they have such delicate necks.


----------



## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I think the most danger with check chains is that in the wrong hands they are "choke chains". Then there are the ignorant who will see one on a rottie and go put one on their greyhound which can cause irreperable damage, they have such delicate necks.


Very true, I saw a staffie at the vets other week with a chain on that I swear was longer than the bloody dog - why on earth it needs one that long I dont know!! :cursing: People cant fit them right, cant buy the correct size, nor know how to use them properly.:cursing:


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> Very true, I saw a staffie at the vets other week with a chain on that I swear was longer than the bloody dog - why on earth it needs one that long I dont know!! :cursing: People cant fit them right, cant buy the correct size, nor know how to use them properly.:cursing:


Perhaps it was left over from their old dog! Like you see children in clothes way too big that they have inherited from their older brother or sister.


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> Very true, I saw a staffie at the vets other week with a chain on that I swear was longer than the bloody dog - why on earth it needs one that long I dont know!! :cursing: People cant fit them right, cant buy the correct size, nor know how to use them properly.:cursing:


thats why i havent bought one for axl
cause i DONT know how to fit it right
i DONT know how to use them right
so iw ould be doing more harm than good


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Is it just me, or is it past the cm fans bedtimes?


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

axl said:


> thats why i havent bought one for axl
> cause i DONT know how to fit it right
> i DONT know how to use them right
> so iw ould be doing more harm than good


But you don't need one, do you? I think they are still used a lot in the show ring, though I have nothing to do with showing, but an ordinary collar works just as well on most dogs if they are trained properly.

Mine wear half check collars because that was all I could get to fit them, but they work out well and they are never used to stop them pulling, unless you count my trying to pull Joshua along! (only joking).


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

jon bda said:


> Is it just me, or is it past the cm fans bedtimes?


I think it must be. All I know is that I have wasted a whole day on this thread and I propose that no one mentions the wretched man again for at least a week!


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> But you don't need one, do you? I think they are still used a lot in the show ring, though I have nothing to do with showing, but an ordinary collar works just as well on most dogs if they are trained properly.
> 
> Mine wear half check collars because that was all I could get to fit them, but they work out well and they are never used to stop them pulling, unless you count my trying to pull Joshua along! (only joking).


no i don't you are correct, i meant most people would use them as a choke chain to correct the dogs, which is the wrong way to use them
sorry i really need to make things clearer:smile5:


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I think it must be. All I know is that I have wasted a whole day on this thread and I propose that no one mentions the wretched man again for at least a week!


School tomorrow again though isn't it?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

jon bda said:


> School tomorrow again though isn't it?


not in our area! They go back wednesday!


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Really? I didn't know that. But it does prove my point, doesn't it? That dog was sick enough to die shortly after but their first thought was aggression. Poor old thing.
> 
> Yes it was a great shame as he was doing so well.
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/157671-r-i-p-marco.html


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

jon bda said:


> Is it just me, or is it past the cm fans bedtimes?


*Nope not my bedtime by a long way yet..........sorry.*


----------



## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I think it must be. All I know is that I have wasted a whole day on this thread and I propose that no one mentions the wretched man again for at least a week!


Im a "cm fan"  But going out now so catch you guys 2morooooooo


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

get better advice from cm than you get from people on pf


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

borderer said:


> get better advice from cm than you get from people on pf


Yeah only because CM tells everyone what they want to hear, where as folk here speak their minds, and the truth


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yeah only because CM tells everyone what they want to hear, where as folk here speak their minds, and the truth


and a load of sh.te


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

borderer said:


> and a load of sh.te


Yeah I agree, he talks about of shite too!


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yeah I agree, he talks about of shite too!


just like pf members then:smile5:


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

borderer said:


> just like pf members then:smile5:


Yep theres a fair few on here that talk out their back sides.


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yep theres a fair few on here that talk out their back sides.


a love ya realy dd:001_tt1::smilewinkgrin:


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

CM fan here too but I aint getting involved in any of this petty shite!


----------



## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Nope not my bedtime by a long way yet..........sorry.*


Well i still fail to see, how anyone who loves their dogs, can watch him at work and think its a good idea...


----------



## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Right trawled through all 39 pages and have a few points so bear with me...
Unfortunately some idiots do take CM's methods literally, and I have had first hand expereince of how badly it can go.
We had taken Lexi out for the day with some friends....now at the time I trusted these friends and left Lexi with them while I went in the cafe. Friends had a dog of their own and Lexi was only about 9 or 10 months so still a pup and I came out of the cafe to find friend pinning Lexi to the floor while she screamed and struggled. He had 'alpha rolled' her because she had jumped playfully at his dogs face and he was teaching her it was wrong. She was that scared she wet herself. We got her home and for 2 days she hid under the kitchen table and it took 2 weeks to get her over her 'fear' of men.
Secondly all my training with Lexi has been positive reinforcement very little of it is treat based and she is a very well mannered dog
Thirdly I am having issues with Bosley where he lunges and barks at other dogs (he is a rescue and we have only had him 3 months) the issues arose about 1 month ago. He can get so wound up and beside himself that it turns agressive and he will attack his lead and jump at your arm and try and nip. I certainly do NOT strangle my dog to train him out of this. He is going on socialiation walks and we go as close to a dog as we can without him getting tense and we reward. In three weeks we have got him walking on lead with a pack of three other dogs without reacting, this has taken 3 2 hour sessions, we can now take him to places where there are large numbers of dogs and he doesn't get stressed. Next week we work on his offlead manners. I am over the moon with the results and not once have had had to kick nudge choke etc my dog it has all been done through positive reinforcement and hot dogs.
Today we took them to a petting zoo type thing and Lexi was terrifed of the cows barking and growling, by the time we left and after lots of praise and reward, she stood next to a cow. How would CM have reacted to the situation, dragged her to the cow pen and forced her to 'face her fear' nah....not Lexi she is too nervous that would just destroy her.
My dogs respect me enough to do what I ask them to do, but I respect my dogs enough to ask them to do it I don't tell them demand them or force them to do anything, it is a mutual thing and I am more than happy with our little realtionship.


----------



## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

LexiLou2 said:


> Right trawled through all 39 pages and have a few points so bear with me...
> *Unfortunately some idiots do take CM's methods literally, and I have had first hand expereince of how badly it can go.
> We had taken Lexi out for the day with some friends....now at the time I trusted these friends and left Lexi with them while I went in the cafe. Friends had a dog of their own and Lexi was only about 9 or 10 months so still a pup and I came out of the cafe to find friend pinning Lexi to the floor while she screamed and struggled. He had 'alpha rolled' her because she had jumped playfully at his dogs face and he was teaching her it was wrong. She was that scared she wet herself. We got her home and for 2 days she hid under the kitchen table and it took 2 weeks to get her over her 'fear' of men*.
> Secondly all my training with Lexi has been positive reinforcement very little of it is treat based and she is a very well mannered dog
> ...


So sorry to hear this, and this is the type of thing I have an issue with when it comes to CM and his methods.... To begin training your Dog, you have to understand their behaviour, and read their body language. And not knowing this is where people go wrong, the watch this numpty and think its a good idea to copy his methods without having the skill or knowledge 

At 9 months old Lexi was still exploring her environment and honing her social skills, the other Dog would of told her what was an acceptable boundary and what wasn't. And a knowledgeable person would sit back and only intervene if it was necessary, and certainly not by 'alpha rolling' - Wtf????

And this is another problem I have with this 'Pack Theory' things, it may be acceptable for Dogs to do this with each other,I believe that it certainly isn't for us humans to do it to them as, we aint Dogs and Dogs know we aint Dogs.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

The most ridiculous thing was at 9 months Lexi was quite at small staffie (still is) and there dog was a full grown Bernese Mountain Dog.....If there dog had wanted to tell Lexi off she could have quite happliy swallowed her whole...


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

Not sure I'll live long enough to read all the forum threads about CM, I've even using the abbreviation to save some typing time, the TV programmes that are based on dating where misc girl picks misc man for a filmed date and interview afterwards is not the basis for successful relationship education for single people. The house make over programmes where a garden, house or even a room is refurbished within the spaces between adverts is not a guide to selecting DIY materials, using hand or power tools or even which end of a paint brush to hold. It is all visual entertainment for the masses, the same is true for doggie training TV. 

To say that CM is kicking dogs in the above YT video is daft, try to replicate that reverse kick against a wall, hard to get any power into such a "kick". 

It would be great to see a contest between the personality TV doggie people, each given ten random problem dogs. Neither would agree to it. 

To be fair to CM he does seem to take on more serious cases than the likes of Victoria Stillwell. 

But in every case I have seen televised none of the owners seem to be able to walk their dog in a calm controlled manner or just "don't have time" to do that. (Ever notice how the problem dog owners have the same 60" plasma TVs as the parents of the problem children on the nanny programmes?) 

IMHO there is a lot of content that is cut from the TV programmes.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Manoy Moneelil said:


> Not sure I'll live long enough to read all the forum threads about CM, I've even using the abbreviation to save some typing time, the TV programmes that are based on dating where misc girl picks misc man for a filmed date and interview afterwards is not the basis for successful relationship education for single people. The house make over programmes where a garden, house or even a room is refurbished within the spaces between adverts is not a guide to selecting DIY materials, using hand or power tools or even which end of a paint brush to hold. It is all visual entertainment for the masses, the same is true for doggie training TV.
> 
> To say that CM is kicking dogs in the above YT video is daft, try to replicate that reverse kick against a wall, hard to get any power into such a "kick".
> 
> ...


If anyone is daft enough to think the house is completely redecorated in the space of the tv advert, I have never seen them. But when it comes to dog training they really do believe it has been done in half an hour.

That is one of the dangers.

I don't think he takes on more serious cases than VS. It may appear so, because his approach winds them up in the first place, whereas she comes along being very calm and ignoring them for a while until they come to investigate her.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Well, I am gob smacked by this thread. It has taken me hours to get through it. 
I have far too many quotes so will probably knock some of them out as I reply. 
First of all, I have only watched the odd clip of CM and I am not impressed. Some of his methods are good but I would wonder what he does away from the tv camera to shut the dogs down the way he does.
On the other hand it is 'entertainment' and he is being given dogs with major problems that the owners are completely stuck on.



newfiesmum said:


> I could have learned from my dad, but I found out better stuff for myself. So he learned from his grandad, when was that I wonder? When everybody treated dogs that way because they knew no different I expect. So why doesn't he do some studying and get himself up to date? He could do a lot of good for dogs with his show, but he doesn't bother because he thinks he knows it all.


By the way, apologies for only quoting from 2 people. I didnt realise it had worked out that way till I re read it.

this old chestnut again. Dogs were trained the way they were (and I mainly still train the same) because it produced well balanced and happy dogs and owners understood their dogs and expected them to fit into family life. 
Even 30 years ago, you did not see dogs lunging around on the end of the lead trying to interact with every dog and person that came by. You could walk in the park with your dog on or off the lead and know that every dog in the area was not going to home in on your dog and annoy you. You didnt worry about your dog all the time, it was part of your family, it fitted in, it had plenty of freedom to act like a dog and both owner and dog was happy.



Devil-Dogz said:


> Then I walk in the other direction  - I dont 'force' the dog into a situation, when its already acting out of character.


But it was acting in character, that was why it was on the show.



Devil-Dogz said:


> Yeah and we have all seen how he trains a dog to sit. - Shoving the bum to the floor


my goodness, 90 percent of dog owners had better be banned from owning dogs then.



Devil-Dogz said:


> wasnt there one case where an owner had their dog PTS following the show claiming CM made matters worse, and there really was no way forward.


that is why trainers should have insurance because they will sometimes get it wrong or something will happen that makes the owners think they have got it wrong.



newfiesmum said:


> Nothing wrong with pats and praise instead of treats. Mine have usually got that most of the time. I bet you didn't hang your dogs up by their check chains though, did you? I don't like to see dogs checked with their chains, and had a flaming row with my daughter when I saw her do it.
> 
> But we always used chains years ago, though not the checking bit. It was supposed to stop them pulling but didn't stop my retriever from breaking my arm!


What is the point of using a check chain if you let it go tight and do not check with it. You are using it wrong. A check chain should NEVER go tight except for that millisecond it is checking the dog. If you let it go tight you are strangling your dog and we all know that does not stop a dog from pulling.

Although I do not like CM I think a lot of people's views are coming purely from the fact that he actually tells the dog what to do and backs up what he has told them.
I was always taught to ask first, then tell, then enforce.
I am sure my training methods have altered a lot over the years and I am definitely less confrontational than I was but I still believe that dogs, horses and children should be shown clearly what is wanted and it should then be enforced if they argue.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Good trainers get an animal to understand what it is they want and persuade it to want to do it to please them. Good trainers do not need EVER to force an animal to comply. Viva la difference!


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

This subject came up at a lunch yesterday. It seems most people I know think CM is marvellous. And they are good people who really love their animals. Frankly, I don't know so much about his methods as I have only watched one or two programmes, but the things he does does not seem so "cruel" or "harsh". Hissing at a dog or pushing his bum to the floor is hardly animal cruelty, surely? Dogs aren't butterflies. The programme is very "American" after all, so I am sure there is a great deal of editing that went on, but I don't see how he promotes "cruelty" or misleads people or anything like that. 
As for other trainers dissing him or producing "CM alternative" programmes, I would take that with a pinch of salt, because I can imagine there is an enormous amount of professional jealousy and sniping in the dog training profession.

I think the valuable lesson of such a programme is that problem dogs are trainable.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Although I do not like CM I think a lot of people's views are coming purely from the fact that he actually tells the dog what to do and backs up what he has told them.
> I was always taught to ask first, then tell, then enforce.
> I am sure my training methods have altered a lot over the years and I am definitely less confrontational than I was but I still believe that dogs, horses and children should be shown clearly what is wanted and it should then be enforced if they argue.


Ask, tell and enforce is not a method of training a dog (let alone a child!), it is simply gaining compliance through fear, intimidation and ultimately physical coercion. Ask an untrained dog to sit, he won't. Tell him to sit, he won't. Physically force him to sit, he will, but then he will get back up and go and carry on whatever he was doing before you shoved his arse into the ground. It does not teach the dog anything and using it as the basis for your training really does demonstrate how very little you understand about how a dog learns or about how to communicate with one.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2011)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Ask, tell and enforce is not a method of training a dog (let alone a child!), it is simply gaining compliance through fear, intimidation and ultimately physical coercion. Ask an untrained dog to sit, he won't. Tell him to sit, he won't. Physically force him to sit, he will, but then he will get back up and go and carry on whatever he was doing before you shoved his arse into the ground. It does not teach the dog anything and using it as the basis for your training really does demonstrate how very little you understand about how a dog learns or about how to communicate with one.


like most things,its not black and white,whilst i agree mainly with what you say......what do you do if you tell your dog to sit...and he doesnt...even though he understands what he wants you to do?.i agree with positive training,but i also say the dog needs to know who the boss is!


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> like most things,its not black and white,whilst i agree mainly with what you say......what do you do if you tell your dog to sit...and he doesnt...even though he understands what he wants you to do?.i agree with positive training,but i also say the dog needs to know who the boss is!


Oh, you finally out ya pit today then Mr A??? :001_tt2::001_tt2:


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Wow, this thread has came on a lot 

Like anything, you need to take in the other viewpoint. I think a lot of people on here who are against Cesar have. I was, once, impressed by the man when he first started (when I didn't know as much or have the experience I have now). I know what Cesar's philosophies are, I know where they come from (he references the studies and research to back up his claims in his first book ). 

Without sounding big-headed, I do know his side of the story. But I have invested a lot of time and money into studying animal behaviour (and will continue to do!) both self- and formal-study, and all I can say is there are genuine reasons why his methods are not suitable for training dogs, and most certainly not appropriate for mainstream TV, other than his show is dramatic, entertaining, mystical etc.

So, I urge those who like him, to read up on the scientific side of behaviour. This does not have to be an arduous task; a lot of valid information is available without trawling through research articles and loads of jargon. 

Although it would be nice to think that Cesar's views come solely from himself and his experiences, they don't. He references Mech (1970) in his first book to support his claims of dominance and leadership, but does not reference Mech (1991) where Mech proves himself wrong. This kind of thing annoys me. If I am able to research these things easily, why can't Cesar?

But that doesn't mean he has to believe it, sure. A good scientist will question everything and always take the null hypothesis. But Cesar's philosophies seem, IMO, based on the ability to push the old, romantic views of hierarchical relationships on the TV screens and ignore the more modern research. If he has the guts to cite old research articles, why doesn't he comment on the modern ones? 

Behaviour is a science. Dog training should, IMO, take principles from the science and apply them. This way, we can use methods that are based on how an animal learns. Yes, dog training is a practical vocation, but the knowledge behind it should be in line with the field of animal behaviour. And anything else should be proven to be valid within a scientific, peer-reviewed context. 

Unfortunately, TV and media is not peer-reviewed, and there are other forces at the controls in deciding what gets shown.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> Oh, you finally out ya pit today then Mr A??? :001_tt2::001_tt2:


morning mrs c!!


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> morning mrs c!!


Good morning indeed, as I is all chirpy as I is off to see one of my pups this afternoon for cuddles, lol!:001_tt1:


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2011)

Ceearott said:


> Good morning indeed, as I is all chirpy as I is off to see one of my pups this afternoon for cuddles, lol!:001_tt1:


awwwwww!im off to work!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

albert 1970 said:


> like most things,its not black and white,whilst i agree mainly with what you say......what do you do if you tell your dog to sit...and he doesnt...even though he understands what he wants you to do?.i agree with positive training,but i also say the dog needs to know who the boss is!


The thing is, dogs don't have a rational mind. They don't possess theory of mind, we believe. For them to 'know' a cue, and not respond, it tells me that they don't know it well enough to perform it at that time, in that situation. It isn't reinforcing enough for them or beneficial enough.

I know this sounds horribly unemotional, and that dogs only do things because of the consequences, but it is largely true. I do think dogs are capable of complex emotions like 'love' (in doggy terms) but I do not think they listen to a command, think 'that person is boss' and then respond.

Why should a dog see us as 'boss'? If I ask a dog to sit, and they look up at me, look away, look up at me, and still don't sit, I don't see this as the dog not seeing me as an authority figure, or 'boss'. I see it as a training opportunity. I think the dog has either 1) no idea what I am asking of it and/or 2) is pulled towards another behaviour because its much more rewarding.

I would never push a child to do something they don't like just because they 'have to'. I would try and teach them why they should do x activity, or do math at school etc., because of the benefits of doing it. This is how trust is formed, IMO.

This post wasn't a pick at you Albert, just using your 'boss' analogy to philosophise.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

albert 1970 said:


> awwwwww!im off to work!


Ner ner n ner ner!!


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> The thing is, dogs don't have a rational mind. They don't possess theory of mind, we believe. For them to 'know' a cue, and not respond, it tells me that they don't know it well enough to perform it at that time, in that situation. It isn't reinforcing enough for them or beneficial enough.
> 
> I know this sounds horribly unemotional, and that dogs only do things because of the consequences, but it is largely true. I do think dogs are capable of complex emotions like 'love' (in doggy terms) but I do not think they listen to a command, think 'that person is boss' and then respond.
> 
> ...


i understand what your saying,and perhaps boss was the wrong word to use,personaly i think some of these things can be over thought!....its a dog..it has a personality....now..albert knows what sit means.....on the odd ioccasion..he just didnt want to do it..nothing to do with not understanding...or distraction.....just didnt want to......my thing is..once ive said it,hes gona do it,whatever my command was.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I agree with that.

Sit, means sit. And all that. If I ask Duke to do something I expect it to be done first time within a second, I never repeat myself. IF However he doesn't do it and ignores me all I do is click my fingers and voilá he does as he is told. Not sure why with the clicky fingers but it seems to work.

Saying that he always does as he's told for me anyhow, it's just other people he won't listen to and then they tell me my dog needs training.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Blitz said:


> Well, I am gob smacked by this thread. It has taken me hours to get through it.
> I have far too many quotes so will probably knock some of them out as I reply.
> First of all, I have only watched the odd clip of CM and I am not impressed. Some of his methods are good but I would wonder what he does away from the tv camera to shut the dogs down the way he does.
> On the other hand it is 'entertainment' and he is being given dogs with major problems that the owners are completely stuck on.
> ...


90% of owners should be taught how to teach a dog to sit. Pushing his bum down is bad for his bones and would never work with a huge dog anyone. It is something I so hate to see, but it is done through ignorance. If someone is advertised internationally as a top trainer, he should not be doing that at all but should know how to teach a dog to sit.

As for the choke chain, I am not using it at all. I am talking about 20 years ago when we didn't know any different (well at least I didn't)



koekemakranka said:


> This subject came up at a lunch yesterday. It seems most people I know think CM is marvellous. And they are good people who really love their animals. Frankly, I don't know so much about his methods as I have only watched one or two programmes, but the things he does does not seem so "cruel" or "harsh". Hissing at a dog or pushing his bum to the floor is hardly animal cruelty, surely? Dogs aren't butterflies. The programme is very "American" after all, so *I am sure there is a great deal of editing *that went on, but I don't see how he promotes "cruelty" or misleads people or anything like that.
> As for other trainers dissing him or producing "CM alternative" programmes, I would take that with a pinch of salt, because I can imagine there is an enormous amount of professional jealousy and sniping in the dog training profession.
> 
> I think the valuable lesson of such a programme is that problem dogs are trainable.


You are right there. They edit out all the bits where he winds the dog up to make him aggressive so that he can prove how brave he is.



albert 1970 said:


> like most things,its not black and white,whilst i agree mainly with what you say......*what do you do if you tell your dog to sit...and he doesnt.*..even though he understands what he wants you to do?.i agree with positive training,but i also say the dog needs to know who the boss is!


I would either wait still or as said, click my fingers, till he did as he was told or go back to the basics. You can never be 100% sure that the dog understands.



Rottiefan said:


> Wow, this thread has came on a lot
> 
> Like anything, you need to take in the other viewpoint. I think a lot of people on here who are against Cesar have. I was, once, impressed by the man when he first started (when I didn't know as much or have the experience I have now). I know what Cesar's philosophies are, I know where they come from (he references the studies and research to back up his claims in his first book ).
> 
> ...


I would imagine it is because he doesn't want to, because later studies contradict his ideas and he cannot then publish books telling everyone how he learned about pack behaviour from his grandad's farm, or some such.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

I've never seen Ceaser Millan before so thought i would go watch a few of his videos before commenting, then the thread got huge so i haven't read through most comments so excuse me lol. 
So after watching a lot of his videos i actually think he is ok, i studied horse behaviour at college and this thread reminds me of the same arguments that went on when we were doing horse psychology. Basically its how assertive should you be to gain a dominant leadership over your horse, and i'm with the side that says you should. A horse tells another horse off by giving it a good kick and bite, a dog tells another dog off by biting and wrestling to ground, if a dog can take that it can take a swift tap on the side with a heel to snap its attention back to you. I don't see him psychically attacking any dog anywhere (in which i'm picturing him rolling around, punching, booting and biting). 
I'd like to see some videos of people who do the softly softly approach turnaround an aggresive dog like those in the videos. I did try to find some but it was all just talk or the dogs were as soft as a brush in the first place.
Dogs are animals, you cannot teach them right and wrong like a child, only to trust, obey and follow and that is what Ceaser Millan is doing.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Ask, tell and enforce is not a method of training a dog (let alone a child!), it is simply gaining compliance through fear, intimidation and ultimately physical coercion. Ask an untrained dog to sit, he won't. Tell him to sit, he won't. Physically force him to sit, he will, but then he will get back up and go and carry on whatever he was doing before you shoved his arse into the ground. It does not teach the dog anything and using it as the basis for your training really does demonstrate how very little you understand about how a dog learns or about how to communicate with one.


there is no fear or intimidation in putting a dog into a sit. It is showing the dog clearly what you are asking it to do. In the same way as training a child. You are not belting the child or dog, you are not yelling at it to do something it does not understand - you are showing it and when it understands the cue of your hand heading towards its bum (or your foot if you dont want to bend down) then you can take away that cue - but if the dog is slow in sitting when told you go straight back to basics and put it in the sit. I cannot understand what the problem is with showing a person or a dog clearly what is wanted. Modern human teaching seems similar and I learn nothing from it at all. If I am sat down and it is explained to me and I am shown what is wanted I learn - if I am told to work it out for myself I am confused and lost. I believe my dogs are the same. And interestingly my daughter said she learnt more from her old fashioned history teacher who sat them down and lectured them than she did from any of the 'modern style' teachers.

Please do not lose sight that I said I do not like CMs methods and I think the dogs are shut down. I can see why he instigates the dog's behaviour though as he has to reproduce it to make the program. We dont know how long he has spent with the owners and dogs though before he does the tiny bit that is filmed - or even if the bit we see is in sequence or a lot of clips put together.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> like most things,its not black and white,whilst i agree mainly with what you say......what do you do if you tell your dog to sit...and he doesnt...even though he understands what he wants you to do?.i agree with positive training,but i also say the dog needs to know who the boss is!


Excellent question, you are right of course, it is not all black and white but at the same time it is also not a question of teaching them who is the 'boss'.

The most basic fundamental building block of teaching, whether it is a dog, a child or a dolphin, is understanding how they learn. You cannot teach until you can understand how they learn. You can stop a child from putting their fingers in a plug socket by smacking their hand and if you do it quick enough and hard enough they will definitely think twice before they do it again, but have you taught them why they shouldn't do it? Have you taught them not to put their fingers into anywhere else they shouldn't? No not really, all you have done is prevented a behaviour.

Dogs do what works, they want to make more of the stuff they like happen and they want to make less of the stuff they don't like happen. This is the black and white part. They do the things that get them what they want, things that are reinforced get repeated, things that are not reinforced, things that do not get them what they want, do not get repeated. Pulling on the lead gets them to the bush they want to sniff, so they pull on the lead. Staring at their food bowl 10 minutes after they have emptied it does not make more food magically appear, so they don't stare at their food bowls (well, my black lab does, but he is an optimist and just plain greedy!).

The way we turn this to our advantage is to capitalise on these traits, reinforce the things we want to happen and punish the things we don't. The things that we want to happen then get repeated more often, because dogs do more of the things that bring them what they want, while the things that we don't want to happen start to disappear because dogs avoid doing things that bring them things that they do not want. If we do this enough, there comes a point when dogs learn to predict the consequence of specific behaviours and act accordingly. Through association the dog learns that putting their bum on the ground when you say 'sit' makes something good happen. Not putting their bum on the ground either makes something bad happen, or it makes something good go away. With enough repetition this association and its resulting reaction becomes automatic, the dog will learn that if he puts bum to floor at the right time there is the potential there for a reward and for 99% of dogs, potential is more than enough motivation.

I should make it clear that when I say punish that does not mean a whack on the head, positive punishment (dogs action causes an undesirable consequence eg pain) does work, but not as effectively a corresponding reinforcement. Positive means to introduce something and negative means to remove something. A punishment is something the dog does not want and a reinforcement is something the dog does want. So a positive reinforcement means giving the dog something he wants (a treat, praise etc), a negative reinforcement means removing something that the dog wants (eg no sit = no treat), a negative punishment means removing something that the dog does not want and so on and so forth, you get the idea. By far the most powerful of these tools is positive reinforcement, this is not a PC, hippy dippy, love the furries dude idealistic dream notion, it is a universally proven, scientific fact. It is so powerful that in theory, it is the only tool you will ever need to train a dog. If they only repeat behaviours that bring them what they want, they will repeat the behaviours that you reinforce and stop doing any behaviour that does not receive any reinforcement. In the real world that is not always practical and there has to be some form of punishment, but a negative reinforcement (like witholding a treat) is still reinforcement and reinforcement is always more powerful than punishment.

Again like you said, it is not quite that black and white, you are not the only source of reinforcement in your dogs life and you do not have control over what he gets to sniff, or what he gets to eat or when he gets to play, sleep, run, go out etc etc, or are you?


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

I dont believe a dog doesnt "think" but simply reacts. Iv noticed a few times Samson not following command even though i have a treat or toy in my hand just to stand and stare at me even though he knows what the command means.

IMO Dogs can not only think but also plan..after all look at countries with large amounts stray dogs..surely it takes thinking and some kind of forward planning to survive as a stray?

Wolves think, plan and socialise..surely if you are saying dogs dont do that then sadly humans have made evolution take a step backwards.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

emsky said:


> I've never seen Ceaser Millan before so thought i would go watch a few of his videos before commenting, then the thread got huge so i haven't read through most comments so excuse me lol.
> So after watching a lot of his videos i actually think he is ok, i studied horse behaviour at college and this thread reminds me of the same arguments that went on when we were doing horse psychology. Basically its how assertive should you be to gain a dominant leadership over your horse, and i'm with the side that says you should. *A horse tells another horse off by giving it a good kick and bite, a dog tells another dog off by biting and wrestling to ground*, if a dog can take that it can take a swift tap on the side with a heel to snap its attention back to you. I don't see him psychically attacking any dog anywhere (in which i'm picturing him rolling around, punching, booting and biting).
> I'd like to see some videos of people who do the softly softly approach turnaround an aggresive dog like those in the videos. I did try to find some but it was all just talk or the dogs were as soft as a brush in the first place.
> Dogs are animals, you cannot teach them right and wrong like a child, only to trust, obey and follow and that is what Ceaser Millan is doing.


But you cannot take the place in an animal's life of a member of his own species. If you were to kick a horse to tell him off, he would very quickly kick you back and you would definitely come off worse. The same goes for dogs; he knows you are not a dog and you do not speak his language fluently. I have never seen a dog wrestle another to the ground unless it has been trained to do so, as in Japanese dog wrestling. I have seen many dogs submit willingly by lying on the ground, but I have never seen them forced there by another dog.



5rivers79 said:


> I dont believe a dog doesnt "think" but simply reacts. *Iv noticed a few times Samson not following command even though i have a treat or toy in my hand just to stand and stare at me even though he knows what the command means.*IMO Dogs can not only think but also plan..after all look at countries with large amounts stray dogs..surely it takes thinking and some kind of forward planning to survive as a stray?
> 
> Wolves think, plan and socialise..surely if you are saying dogs dont do that then sadly humans have made evolution take a step backwards.


Perhaps he does not know what it means. You cannot be 100% sure of that. Stray dogs will follow the food not plan a route. They have a much stronger sense of smell than we do and that is where they are heading.

I think dogs can plan to a certain extent, but it is mostly instinct which drives them.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> But you cannot take the place in an animal's life of a member of his own species. If you were to kick a horse to tell him off, he would very quickly kick you back and you would definitely come off worse. The same goes for dogs; he knows you are not a dog and you do not speak his language fluently. I have never seen a dog wrestle another to the ground unless it has been trained to do so, as in Japanese dog wrestling. I have seen many dogs submit willingly by lying on the ground, but *I have never seen them forced there by another dog.
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Sammy knows what sit means lol

Also he has flipped another Akita over and then pinned him down whilst playing.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Blitz said:


> there is no fear or intimidation in putting a dog into a sit. It is showing the dog clearly what you are asking it to do. In the same way as training a child. You are not belting the child or dog, you are not yelling at it to do something it does not understand - you are showing it and when it understands the cue of your hand heading towards its bum (or your foot if you dont want to bend down) then you can take away that cue - but if the dog is slow in sitting when told you go straight back to basics and put it in the sit. I cannot understand what the problem is with showing a person or a dog clearly what is wanted. Modern human teaching seems similar and I learn nothing from it at all. If I am sat down and it is explained to me and I am shown what is wanted I learn - if I am told to work it out for myself I am confused and lost. I believe my dogs are the same. And interestingly my daughter said she learnt more from her old fashioned history teacher who sat them down and lectured them than she did from any of the 'modern style' teachers.
> 
> Please do not lose sight that I said I do not like CMs methods and I think the dogs are shut down. I can see why he instigates the dog's behaviour though as he has to reproduce it to make the program. We dont know how long he has spent with the owners and dogs though before he does the tiny bit that is filmed - or even if the bit we see is in sequence or a lot of clips put together.


Dogs are not humans and they do not learn in anywhere near as great a variety of ways that we do. Mimicry/copying is a technique used only by the most intelligent animals such as (certain!) humans, great apes and whales/dolphins. Demonstrating a behaviour to a dog does not teach them the behaviour, they simply cannot understand the connection. When you push a dog into a sit you are not teaching them how to sit, you are pushing them into a sit, the fact that they eventually sit when you move your hand towards their back end does not mean that they have learned what you are trying to do, it means that they are trying to avoid the discomfort of being pushed into position.

Getting back to the point in hand, if Mr Milan were able to understand this himself, he would be a much more successful dog trainer, but a far less successful TV presenter.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> Sammy knows what sit means lol
> 
> Also he has flipped another Akita over and then pinned him down whilst playing.


Did he? Or did the other dog go willingly, and you are just not experienced enough in observing the difference?

There is also a world of difference between play and confrontation.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> But you cannot take the place in an animal's life of a member of his own species. If you were to kick a horse to tell him off, he would very quickly kick you back and you would definitely come off worse.


Wrong! We were told in college that this is what we should do, also if a horse bit you to punch it on the nose! I have seen people do this including the trainers and the horses quickly submitted and never fought back (human behaviour again, animals don't seek revenge!) It comes down to a battle of wills and who is the strongest.



newfiesmum said:


> The same goes for dogs; he knows you are not a dog and you do not speak his language fluently. I have never seen a dog wrestle another to the ground unless it has been trained to do so, as in Japanese dog wrestling. I have seen many dogs submit willingly by lying on the ground, but I have never seen them forced there by another dog.


No! He knows he is part of the pack and though some are content to take a lower role others will try for a dominant position, i had a very dominant Staffie that wrestled dogs to the floor and pinned them down.

Edit... And the other dogs went down fighting trust me.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Getting back to the point in hand, if Mr Milan were able to understand this himself, he would be a much more successful dog trainer, but a far less successful TV presenter.


I think he is very successful..you seen the size of his new rehab grounds??


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> I dont believe a dog doesnt "think" but simply reacts. Iv noticed a few times Samson not following command even though i have a treat or toy in my hand just to stand and stare at me even though he knows what the command means.
> 
> IMO Dogs can not only think but also plan..after all look at countries with large amounts stray dogs..surely it takes thinking and some kind of forward planning to survive as a stray?
> 
> Wolves think, plan and socialise..surely if you are saying dogs dont do that then sadly humans have made evolution take a step backwards.


I absolutely believe that dogs think a great deal and that is why they are the creatures that we love so dearly. It is also the reason why they can be trained to do so many wonderful things.

When Samson chooses not to follow a known command what do you imagine he is thinking?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

5rivers79 said:


> Sammy knows what sit means lol
> 
> Also he has flipped another Akita over and then pinned him down whilst playing.


Whilst playing being the operative phrase. Mine do that all the time while playing, but CM is not playing when he shoves and holds some poor creature down in the famous Alpha Roll, is he?



emsky said:


> Wrong! We were told in college that this is what we should do, also if a horse bit you to punch it on the nose! I have seen people do this including the trainers and the horses quickly submitted and never fought back (human behaviour again, animals don't seek revenge!).
> 
> *No! He knows he is part of the pack *and though some are content to take a lower role others will try for a dominant position, i had a very dominant Staffie that wrestled dogs to the floor and pinned them down.


There are lots of animal college courses that are just as stuck in the dark ages as CM himself. Doesn't mean it is right. You train a horse with polos and pony nuts, not punches on the nose.

Codswallop! Dogs do not live in heirarchial packs. Some dogs will submit to a larger dog, or to a dog that is giving off body language that we cannot understand. I have recently had two dogs roll over when my Joshua got close to them, but he appeared the same as usual. They obviously sensed something that I, being a mere human, could not. He is most certainly not a dominant dog.

My dogs will tell each other off if play gets out of hand, but I don't expect to be accepted as just another dog in their eyes, nor should anyone else.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

emsky said:


> Wrong! We were told in college that this is what we should do, also if a horse bit you to punch it on the nose! I have seen people do this including the trainers and the horses quickly submitted and never fought back (human behaviour again, animals don't seek revenge!) It comes down to a battle of wills and who is the strongest.


Sadly many so called animal care and animal behaviour courses are complete rubbish. 
Having done a 2 year course myself, i know half the stuff they teach is outdated and sometimes dangerous.

Ive seen someone beat a horse with a metal rod as it was too scared to go into a trailer. Doesnt make it right, nor acceptable.



> No! He knows he is part of the pack and though some are content to take a lower role others will try for a dominant position, i had a very dominant Staffie that wrestled dogs to the floor and pinned them down.
> 
> Edit... And the other dogs went down fighting trust me.


If they went down fighting, then they were merely outweight and out manouvered, rather than forced to submit. Did they stay down when your dog backed off?


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

emsky said:


> Wrong! We were told in college that this is what we should do, also if a horse bit you to punch it on the nose! I have seen people do this including the trainers and the horses quickly submitted and never fought back (human behaviour again, animals don't seek revenge!) It comes down to a battle of wills and who is the strongest.
> 
> No! He knows he is part of the pack and though some are content to take a lower role others will try for a dominant position, i had a very dominant Staffie that wrestled dogs to the floor and pinned them down.
> 
> Edit... And the other dogs went down fighting trust me.


If this is true then why didn't the staff ever pin you to the ground?


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

emsky said:


> I've never seen Ceaser Millan before so thought i would go watch a few of his videos before commenting, then the thread got huge so i haven't read through most comments so excuse me lol.
> So after watching a lot of his videos i actually think he is ok, i studied horse behaviour at college and this thread reminds me of the same arguments that went on when we were doing horse psychology. Basically its how assertive should you be to gain a dominant leadership over your horse, and i'm with the side that says you should. A horse tells another horse off by giving it a good kick and bite, a dog tells another dog off by biting and wrestling to ground, if a dog can take that it can take a swift tap on the side with a heel to snap its attention back to you. I don't see him psychically attacking any dog anywhere (in which i'm picturing him rolling around, punching, booting and biting).
> I'd like to see some videos of people who do the softly softly approach turnaround an aggresive dog like those in the videos. I did try to find some but it was all just talk or the dogs were as soft as a brush in the first place.
> Dogs are animals, you cannot teach them right and wrong like a child, only to trust, obey and follow and that is what Ceaser Millan is doing.


With respect, those views are incredibly old-hat and I suggest you read up on what science has learned in the last 60 years.

Dogs do not respond to 'dominant leadership' in the wild; they respond to their parents.

Dogs do not fight and wrestle, this hardly ever happens. It is possibly the most stupid survival strategy that could be chosen, to be honest.

Dogs, and horses, and any other animal, have complex communication systems, with tactile communication being the last on the list after olfactory, visual, and acoustic (for dogs).

Your statement is the same as saying that humans punch and fight when they want to punish someone, and that it is 'natural'. This is not natural, and it is the same for any other animal.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> I absolutely believe that dogs think a great deal and that is why they are the creatures that we love so dearly. It is also the reason why they can be trained to do so many wonderful things.
> 
> When Samson chooses not to follow a known command what do you imagine he is thinking?


I know when my dogs dont do what they are told they can be thinking an umber of things like -

whats in it for me?

why should i?

you want that ball back - go get it yourself!

naw, cant be bothered

etc etc etc

can be hard to train a rottie and keep its interest!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> You train a horse with polos and pony nuts, not punches on the nose.
> 
> .


Um no really you don't- food is very rarely used to train a horse to do anything, they are grazers, so just not as food orientated as dogs... it simply would not work.... granted punches on the nose in most cases wouldn't work either.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> I know when my dogs dont do what they are told they can be thinking an umber of things like -
> 
> whats in it for me?
> 
> ...


Yes, however, Rotties do love their food. Can't help but laugh sometimes. Training some dogs takes their favourite treat, favourite toy, lots of encouragement...some Rotties takes the driest, most unappetising biscuit and they act like its roast chicken


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> Sadly many so called animal care and animal behaviour courses are complete rubbish.
> Having done a 2 year course myself, i know half the stuff they teach is outdated and sometimes dangerous.
> 
> *Ive seen someone beat a horse with a metal rod as it was too scared to go into a trailer. Doesnt make it right, nor acceptable.*
> ...


Oh, my God! Did they imagine this sort of treatment would get the horse over his fear? How can anyone believe such illogical reasoning?

We had an NF pony who was afraid of the trailer. We found out after we had bought her and the people had delivered her in their lorry, that she was involved in an accident and stuck in an overturned trailer for three hours before fireman could free her.

We only had a trailer, no lorry, so probably would not have bought her had we known.

How did we cure her? We parked the open trailer in the field, left lots of goodies inside and hay, and after a few months (months, mind you) she ventured inside of her own accord.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Wrong! We were told in college that this is what we should do, also if a horse bit you to punch it on the nose! I have seen people do this including the trainers and the horses quickly submitted and never fought back


So I can presume from this that these horses had never bitten anyone before and never bit anyone ever again?

How many of these poor animals were biting? Don't you wonder why?

Absolute and utter tosh. :cursing:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Um no really you don't- food is very rarely used to train a horse to do anything, they are grazers, so just not as food orientated as dogs... it simply would not work.... granted punches on the nose in most cases wouldn't work either.


Well I can't pretend to have trained a horse from scratch, but they certainly worked with recall! A horse is not going to come to you if he is going to get a punch on the nose when he gets there is he? Like the people who never let them out of the stable because they are hard to catch. Well, you would be hard to catch if you were then going to be stuck in a stable for the rest of the week.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Oh, my God! Did they imagine this sort of treatment would get the horse over his fear? How can anyone believe such illogical reasoning?
> 
> We had an NF pony who was afraid of the trailer. We found out after we had bought her and the people had delivered her in their lorry, that she was involved in an accident and stuck in an overturned trailer for three hours before fireman could free her.
> 
> ...


It was my father that did it.

Sadly he was a control freak, who was under the impression that brute force was how to deal with all and any animal, and he took great pleasure when they cowered and showed fear. To see a 17hh thoroughbred cowering in the corner of a stable merely because of a persons presence is heartbreaking.

The things i witnessed him do to animals are still with me to this day.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Um no really you don't- food is very rarely used to train a horse to do anything


I use food rewards when training horses, even the Spanish Riding School have special pockets made for sugar for their horses. Treats can be just as powerful when training horses as they are when training dogs. 

Tuggies and balls not so much, though even they can be fun for horses too.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Elles said:


> I use food rewards when training horses, even the Spanish Riding School have special pockets made for sugar for their horses. Treats can be just as powerful when training horses as they are when training dogs.
> 
> Tuggies and balls not so much, though even they can be fun for horses too.


Difficult to administer whilst on board tho.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

emsky said:


> Wrong! We were told in college that this is what we should do, also if a horse bit you to punch it on the nose! I have seen people do this including the trainers and the horses quickly submitted and never fought back (human behaviour again, animals don't seek revenge!)


When humans do this to other humans we normally put them in prison, but if it is just a horse, that must be OK then. Did they teach you at college to maybe think for yourself? I am guessing not.



emsky said:


> It comes down to a battle of wills and who is the strongest.


Generally speaking, I only tend to do battle with my enemies, not my friends, my pets or things that I love.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

If a killer whale can be trained using positive reinforcement, then surely a dog and a horse can?


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Ok so answering above posts... You cannot train a horse to not bite and kick you with pony nuts and polos! While some horses do things out of fear that can be addressed in a softer approach others are really just plain naughty, in a herd these horses would be put in their place by the lead mare.
Left unchecked by humans this naughty behaviour will esculate into full blown dangerous behaviour and create one very dangerous animal. I'm not saying hitting an animal with a metal rod is right i would never think anything like that is acceptable. But as i stated before if they can take a pounding off another horse they can take a bop on the nose or a slap on the shoulder.

This is true and and my staff never pinned me to the ground because he had dog aggresion not human! Also outweight or out manouvered he still wrestled dogs to the ground.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Difficult to administer whilst on board tho


The horses I train will all bend their neck around to receive their treat. Mark the desired behaviour with a word or a clicker (I don't use a clicker it's too awkward lol) then cue the horse for his treat when ready.

A friend of mine used her tongue as her clicker, her little hispano-arab would stop instantly and turn around for his treat when she clicked, so she hadn't got it quite right. She was very bad though, used to do it when someone else was riding and they'd nearly go over his head as he slammed the brakes on for his treat. lol


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Well I can't pretend to have trained a horse from scratch, but they certainly worked with recall! A horse is not going to come to you if he is going to get a punch on the nose when he gets there is he? Like the people who never let them out of the stable because they are hard to catch. Well, you would be hard to catch if you were then going to be stuck in a stable for the rest of the week.


Yes because everytime my horse runs up to me i punch it on the nose!*sarcasm*


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

emsky said:


> Ok so answering above posts... You cannot train a horse to not bite and kick you with pony nuts and polos! While some horses do things out of fear that can be addressed in a softer approach others are really just plain naughty, in a herd these horses would be put in their place by the lead mare.
> Left unchecked by humans this naughty behaviour will esculate into full blown dangerous behaviour and create one very dangerous animal. I'm not saying hitting an animal with a metal rod is right i would never think anything like that is acceptable. But as i stated before if they can take a pounding off another horse they can take a bop on the nose or a slap on the shoulder.
> 
> This is true and and my staff never pinned me to the ground because he had dog aggresion not human! Also outweight or out manouvered he still wrestled dogs to the ground.


But he wasnt forcing them to submit, he was attacking them. A world of difference.

Aggression in horses is caused by poor animal husbandry. Its rife in racehorses due to the psychological damage they suffer. And FYI, i spent 6 months working with a highly aggressive horse many years ago, and successfully stop his biting using nothing but positive reinforcement.

The horse world really does disgust me with its treatment of these animals.

Anyone who thinks that using physical violence against an animal is how to interect and train them, shouldnt be near them in the first place.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> You cannot train a horse to not bite and kick you with pony nuts and polos!


Yes you can, you just have to know how to. 

A recent horse I had in to train was a thoroughbred ex racehorse who, oddly, had been loaned to a college and was terrible for biting.

He was checked to remove any physical need for biting and then trained an alternative behaviour to biting, using treats and positive methods. He no longer bites, or attempts to bite, yet he was never hit, or even told off for it.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Elles said:


> The horses I train will all bend their neck around to receive their treat. Mark the desired behaviour with a word or a clicker (I don't use a clicker it's too awkward lol) then cue the horse for his treat when ready.
> 
> A friend of mine used her tongue as her clicker, her little hispano-arab would stop instantly and turn around for his treat when she clicked, so she hadn't got it quite right. She was very bad though, used to do it when someone else was riding and they'd nearly go over his head as he slammed the brakes on for his treat. lol


see i have NO idea WHY someone would want to train an animal that is ridden to do this.......... sounds dangerous IMO


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Excellent question, you are right of course, it is not all black and white but at the same time it is also not a question of teaching them who is the 'boss'.
> 
> The most basic fundamental building block of teaching, whether it is a dog, a child or a dolphin, is understanding how they learn. You cannot teach until you can understand how they learn. You can stop a child from putting their fingers in a plug socket by smacking their hand and if you do it quick enough and hard enough they will definitely think twice before they do it again, but have you taught them why they shouldn't do it? Have you taught them not to put their fingers into anywhere else they shouldn't? No not really, all you have done is prevented a behaviour.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree with you more. One of the first things they told us when we went to training was that your dog will try to figure out how to get what it needs from you. Whether that's food, attention or walks. They know you hold all the keys. That's not to say they won't also try to figure out how to get food that's on the counter or in the garbage bin, a bite of your sandwich or a lick of the ice cream cone that your toddler is walking around with - they are opportunists after all. 

CM knows a lot of dog signals, but I've never seen him explaining them to the people he's supposedly helping. I also never see joy on his own dogs' faces when he's entering his 'psychology' yard. They look away from him because he's unpredictable with them - he might give them a pat or a hiss or a poke depending on what he's showing the camera. I think they try to make themselves unnoticeable and hope he won't call their names. I read something somewhere (probably here) that said watch trainers and dog videos with the sound turned off to get a true idea of how the dog feels and it is interesting.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> When humans do this to other humans we normally put them in prison, but if it is just a horse, that must be OK then. Did they teach you at college to maybe think for yourself? I am guessing not.
> 
> Generally speaking, I only tend to do battle with my enemies, not my friends, my pets or things that I love.


Well i guess seen as i have never punched a horse on the nose nor taken a broom to one i do think for myself!!!!!!!! There is a difference between been firm and fair and actually abuse, nowhere in my post have i said its right to do this! Have you ever been attacked by a horse? I have and no amount of polo's in the world was going to stop it! What did i do? I fended it off with a broom. Not hit it! Before you run off been condescending and judgemental i held it between me and the horse. What was its problem? It had started with nipping and esculated to territorial behaviour. Why? Because no one put the horse in its place!

And have you honestly never had a battle of wills with your pet?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> see i have NO idea WHY someone would want to train an animal that is ridden to do this.......... sounds dangerous IMO


Her horses are all very advanced horses and not ridden by novice riders.

The horse I mentioned is no longer with us. He died last year.  He was also taught to cross his legs and bow and various other tricks. She had a particularly odd tongue click, so if I clicked my tongue he didn't take any notice, it was only when she did it.

I posted it to make the point that horses can be very interested in treats.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Jonesey said:


> Couldn't agree with you more. One of the first things they told us when we went to training was that your dog will try to figure out how to get what it needs from you. .


ain't that the truth! My milly - the minute we walk into the house runs upstairs and fetches a shoe (any shoe I add) because when she was younger the first thing OH used to say to her when he came in was either fetch shoes, or wheres shoes! She would deliver themswiftly and was praised with much fuss! And the tone of voice did a lot!


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> But he wasnt forcing them to submit, he was attacking them. A world of difference.


Define him attacking to me then, because all i saw was him rolling dogs over until they calmed down.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

emsky said:


> Define him attacking to me then, because all i saw was him rolling dogs over until they calmed down.


Thats why i asked previously if they stayed down when he stopped his attack.

Tbh, no one can say what your dog was or wasnt doing, as no one can see it. But id bet my life he wasnt forcing them into submission. He was either outweighing them, or they were willing.

I also hope if you knowingly had a DA dog, that you didnt let him behave like this on a regular basis.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> It was my father that did it.
> 
> Sadly he was a control freak, who was under the impression that brute force was how to deal with all and any animal, and he took great pleasure when they cowered and showed fear. To see a 17hh thoroughbred cowering in the corner of a stable merely because of a persons presence is heartbreaking.
> 
> The things i witnessed him do to animals are still with me to this day.


Oh, you poor thing. My dad used old fashioned ideas, but he would never have done anything like that. He truly loved dogs; he was always bringing home strays and stray cats.



emsky said:


> Ok so answering above posts... You cannot train a horse to not bite and kick you with pony nuts and polos! While some horses do things out of fear that can be addressed in a softer approach others are really just plain naughty, in a herd these horses would be put in their place by the lead mare.
> Left unchecked by humans this naughty behaviour will esculate into full blown dangerous behaviour and create one very dangerous animal. I'm not saying hitting an animal with a metal rod is right i would never think anything like that is acceptable. But as i stated before if they can take a pounding off another horse they can take a bop on the nose or a slap on the shoulder.
> 
> This is true and and my staff never pinned me to the ground because he had dog aggresion not human! Also outweight or out manouvered he still wrestled dogs to the ground.


I don't believe a horse kicking or biting is naughty behaviour. Horses are real scaredy cats and the only reason they may do this is if they are afraid or startled.



Jonesey said:


> Couldn't agree with you more. One of the first things they told us when we went to training was that your dog will try to figure out how to get what it needs from you. Whether that's food, attention or walks. They know you hold all the keys. That's not to say they won't also try to figure out how to get food that's on the counter or in the garbage bin, a bite of your sandwich or a lick of the ice cream cone that your toddler is walking around with - they are opportunists after all.
> 
> CM knows a lot of dog signals, *but I've never seen him explaining them to the people he's supposedly helping.* I also never see joy on his own dogs' faces when he's entering his 'psychology' yard. They look away from him because he's unpredictable with them - he might give them a pat or a hiss or a poke depending on what he's showing the camera. I think they try to make themselves unnoticeable and hope he won't call their names. I read something somewhere (probably here) that said watch trainers and dog videos with the sound turned off to get a true idea of how the dog feels and it is interesting.


Probably because he usually gets them wrong. I saw him once with a GSD who was curled up and edging away from him. He told the owner "that's excitement". I was gobsmacked.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Elles said:


> Her horses are all very advanced horses and not ridden by novice riders.
> 
> The horse I mentioned is no longer with us. He died last year.  He was also taught to cross his legs and bow and various other tricks. She had a particularly odd tongue click, so if I clicked my tongue he didn't take any notice, it was only when she did it.
> 
> I posted it to make the point that horses can be very interested in treats.


yes but this is unusual training for a horse- and IMO cute but unnecessary LOL for all the general stuff- halter training, backing, etc etc treats are rarely used


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

emsky said:


> Define him attacking to me then, because all i saw was him rolling dogs over until they calmed down.


Physically pushing dogs to the ground is unsociable. It may come from a lack of socialisation, an anxiety or fear of other dogs, and the behaviour is reinforced as it stops interactions. Just because it looks all bolshy and confident, rarely, if even, means the dog is.

This has nothing to do with status or rank.

The way to improve these problems is not through punishment, and putting an animal 'in its place'- what place are you referring to here?

A battle of wills with a dog would imply that a dog possess theory of mind, which has not be proven.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> yes but this is unusual training for a horse- and IMO cute but unnecessary LOL for all the general stuff- halter training, backing, etc etc treats are rarely used


I agree you dont have to use treats, but you can still use a reward rather than force.

Personally, i think when dealing with a flight animal, the more positive the experience the better as its a well proven fact, that horses are able to remember negative and bad experiences, which makes them more likely to be reactive and to avoid a place/situation in the future.

Plus surely being nice is just common sense? Maybe then so many of these undesirable traits could be avoided in the first place.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> treats are rarely used


They should be used more often, as I've just proved lol, they can be very powerful. 

Clicker and positive training methods including treats as rewards are slowly becoming more popular in horse training too though.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> I agree you dont have to use treats, but you can still use a reward rather than force.
> 
> Personally, i think when dealing with a flight animal, the more positive the experience the better as its a well proven fact, that horses are able to remember negative and bad experiences, which makes them more likely to be reactive and to avoid a place/situation in the future.
> 
> Plus surely being nice is just common sense? Maybe then so many of these undesirable traits could be avoided in the first place.


OF COURSE- wasn't suggesting it would be anything other than positive, just that treats are generally not used, praise, pats, strokes definitely.... like i said is hard to give a horse a treat once on board, without some very awkward leaning!!

Tis very very hard to use force on a horse anyway, as 600kg, v's 100kg (MAX) is a no brainer.....


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> OF COURSE- wasn't suggesting it would be anything other than positive, just that treats are generally not used, praise, pats, strokes definitely.... like i said is hard to give a horse a treat once on board, without some very awkward leaning!!
> 
> Tis very very hard to use force on a horse anyway, as 600kg, v's 100kg is a no brainer.....


Oh yeah, just realised you werent the beat with a broom, punch them in the face poster 

I remember my last horse was a 17.2 ex national hunter with an addiction for polos. He was a rather ungainly fellow, but still somehow used to manage to spread his legs like a giraffe, and turn his head to take a mint. I did fall off him once though when i leant too far forward.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Oh yeah, just realised you werent the beat with a broom, punch them in the face poster
> 
> I remember my last horse was a 17.2 ex national hunter with an addiction for polos. He was a rather ungainly fellow, but still somehow used to manage to spread his legs like a giraffe, and turn his head to take a mint. I did fall off him once though when i leant too far forward.


Good god no..... like you said horses remember- dont want a peed of horse thanks!

My old TB used to suck his polo's...hmy:


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Thats why i asked previously if they stayed down when he stopped his attack.
> 
> Tbh, no one can say what your dog was or wasnt doing, as no one can see it. But id bet my life he wasnt forcing them into submission. He was either outweighing them, or they were willing.


He was always pulled away, when my dog started fighting, checking to see how submissive the other dog was, well it was the last thing on my mind.



Nonnie said:


> I alos hope if you knowinly had a DA dog, that you didnt let him behave like this on a regular basis.


Your coming across as condescending here, its not as if i allowed him to attack other dogs!


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Probably because he usually gets them wrong. I saw him once with a GSD who was curled up and edging away from him. He told the owner "that's excitement". I was gobsmacked.


I've seen him approach dogs sideways, sit turned away from them, yawn, do the look - look away, etc.. Those are all communication signals that dogs use with each other, but he never tells the owners what they are. Maybe to make himself look more magical. I agree with you totally in how he explains dog behaviour to owners.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't believe a horse kicking or biting is naughty behaviour. Horses are real scaredy cats and the only reason they may do this is if they are afraid or startled.


Your so wrong, yes they are scaredy cats and they do lash out when pushed but there are naughty and vicious horses too.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Oh yeah, just realised you werent the beat with a broom, punch them in the face poster .


Is that aimed at me? Where have i said i did that? I said at college that is what they told us!!!! I said i fended a horse off with a broom as it tried to attack me not by hitting it but holding it between us. What would you have done? Fed it a treat?


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## brackenhwv (Mar 28, 2010)

have to disagree about horses not being treat motivated. I've 30 yrs with them unhandled youngsters upwards and always found food to be greatest motivator for them. You also praise at the same time as reinforcing with food, then can reduce the incidents when food appears, you want make the interaction a pleasurable one. Disappointed that the college your at actually advises you to punch the animal on the nose, the most sensitive part of it, as a response to biting, to that is for severe situations. My sister had a mare that would have put 'Alien' to shame, tried to get you if you took your eye off of her whiilst changing rugs, never got to the bottom of it, but we would set her up to succeed, tied up short, a polo and lots of praise when she didn't try, she did improve , tho how much we never did find out as she had to be pts due to injury.
Ps feeding polos from back of a horse , not a problem for horse or rider .


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

brackenhwv said:


> Ps feeding polos from back of a horse , not a problem for horse or rider .


But why would you want to?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jonesey said:


> I've seen him approach dogs sideways, sit turned away from them, yawn, do the look - look away, etc.. Those are all communication signals that dogs use with each other, but he never tells the owners what they are. Maybe to make himself look more magical. I agree with you totally in how he explains dog behaviour to owners.


I have seen him do this as well, but if he knows these signals, why does he seem incapable of identifying them when they are exhibited by a dog?



emsky said:


> Your so wrong, yes they are scaredy cats and they do lash out when pushed but there are naughty and vicious horses too.


That is the second time you have boldly stated "you are wrong" when replying to me. No reasoned argument, just "you are wrong". Well, I think you are wrong.

I have seen the odd one or two nasty horses, but they have been made that way by harsh treatment and their usual defence is to charge at people.

I don't pretend to know as much about horses as I do about dogs, but we have kept horses and I know how easily spooked they are.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I have seen him do this as well, but if he knows these signals, why does he seem incapable of identifying them when they are exhibited by a dog?


Strange isn't it. I think it's because it wouldn't fit in with 'Cesar's Way'.

I read one book where the author actually went and observed real wolves in the real wild and didn't see any alpha/omega behaviour, just a wolf family living their lives. Did that cure her of her belief in the whole crap filled wolf pack dominance theory? NO! She was sure it was still there, but that she just didn't get to see it. And that's when I threw the book at the wall.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't use polos, I use other treats, but as part of positive reward based training. The treats are a reward and help confirm to the horse that he's got it right. 

No-one has to give treats to any animal, but it's a powerful aid to training, so I choose to use it.

Cesar did a programme where he and Pat Parelli worked on horses and dogs together. I'm just watching it, not seen it before, so don't know what it's like. I rate the Parellis even lower that I do CM, I'd rather have Cesar walking my dog than Linda Parelli anywhere near my horses.

I would expect my well behaved dog to still be a well behaved dog if Cesar took her for a walk, I wouldn't think he'd do anything if she just trotted along next to him. I wouldn't like to say the same about the Parellis.

Here's the link:

http://video.nationalgeographic.com...erer-1/ngc-cesar-and-the-horse-whisperer.html

If it doesn't work, go to the Nat Geo TV channel and search videos for cesar meets the horse whisperer.


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## brackenhwv (Mar 28, 2010)

Why ? To reinforce a wanted behaviour ! My sister had a section D gelding, not a horse I really liked, the most unwilling ride I've came across, untrustworthy, known to have a boot out at a passing human, made the most awful faces, I' sure he was swearing, telling us to eff off. Why , because the 2nd human that owned him, battered him with a lunge whip, so he just marked all humans as the same He didn't forget. He would have ended up at the meatman, so he was retired at an early age, but with kindness, food reinforcement, his outlook became that not all humans were that bad. Funnily enough you could put anyone with mental health issues or a disability on or near him and he became a totally different horse.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> That is the second time you have boldly stated "you are wrong" when replying to me. No reasoned argument, just "you are wrong". Well, I think you are wrong.


So according to you there is no such thing as a naughty or viscious horse?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jonesey said:


> Strange isn't it. I think it's because it wouldn't fit in with 'Cesar's Way'.
> 
> I read one book where the author actually went and observed real wolves in the real wild and didn't see any alpha/omega behaviour, just a wolf family living their lives. Did that cure her of her belief in the whole crap filled wolf pack dominance theory? NO! She was sure it was still there, but that she just didn't get to see it. And that's when I threw the book at the wall.


Perhaps she should have read the retraction by the original researcher who came up with this junk. He has admitted many times that he was wrong, but nobody wants to know.

I also do not quite understand how you can compare wolves with dogs anyway. They are thousands of years evolved from being wolves and have very few behaviours in common. You may as well study a load of apes and decide that is how humans behave.

The whole idea is bizarre.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

brackenhwv said:


> Why ? To reinforce a wanted behaviour ! My sister had a section D gelding, not a horse I really liked, the most unwilling ride I've came across, untrustworthy, known to have a boot out at a passing human, made the most awful faces, I' sure he was swearing, telling us to eff off. Why , because the 2nd human that owned him, battered him with a lunge whip, so he just marked all humans as the same He didn't forget. He would have ended up at the meatman, so he was retired at an early age, but with kindness, food reinforcement, his outlook became that not all humans were that bad. Funnily enough you could put anyone with mental health issues or a disability on or near him and he became a totally different horse.


We had a little black 13.1 hh like that. He used to rear up, dance round in circles, even jumped over someone's shoulder once, but put a young child on him he was as good as gold. I think they have wonderful senses.



emsky said:


> So according to you there is no such thing as a naughty or viscious horse?


In the part of my post that you chose not to quote, I said just the opposite. Yes, I have seen nasty horses, but they were not born that way.

By your standards, then, Mary Chipperfield should not have been charged with cruelty and banned from keeping animals when she was secretly filmed beating hell out of a chained up elephant?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> So according to you there is no such thing as a nasty or viscious horse?


Hardly.

There are horses who display behaviour that may be interpreted as nasty or vicious, but there is usually a very good reason for it. Remove the trigger and the reason and although the behaviour may continue, most often the behaviour can be modified relatively easily. It's finding the problem or trigger and removing it that can be the real challenge.

I would have no problem with a person using reasonable force to defend themselves in a dangerous situation, so long as they sit down afterwards to try to analyse the situation and how they got into it, how to resolve it and how to avoid it in the future. Believing that showing a horse (or dog) their place is a useful training tool, would I believe, be very mistaken.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

brackenhwv said:


> Why ? To reinforce a wanted behaviour ! My sister had a section D gelding, not a horse I really liked, the most unwilling ride I've came across, untrustworthy, known to have a boot out at a passing human, made the most awful faces, I' sure he was swearing, telling us to eff off. Why , because the 2nd human that owned him, battered him with a lunge whip, so he just marked all humans as the same He didn't forget. He would have ended up at the meatman, so he was retired at an early age, but with kindness, food reinforcement, his outlook became that not all humans were that bad. Funnily enough you could put anyone with mental health issues or a disability on or near him and he became a totally different horse.


I get this- i get the idea- have been around horses long enough, as well as dogs, i understand what food reward does. When on board a horse I NEVER EVER want it to stop and turn its neck to me for a treat- EVER. Thats what i mean- for ground work ok fine, but when i am riding it i want it forward going, supple, relaxed not wondering if i will make a clicky noise so it stops dead (probably sending me flying) and turns for a treat thats all I meant.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> In the part of my post that you chose not to quote, I said just the opposite. Yes, I have seen nasty horses, but they were not born that way.


Right so putting your contradiction to one side, yes some are made that way by been treated poorly but as i keep saying others are made that way by not been corrected when they exibit a specific behaviour. I never said they were born that way so stop twisting what i am saying.



newfiesmum said:


> By your standards, then, Mary Chipperfield should not have been charged with cruelty and banned from keeping animals when she was secretly filmed beating hell out of a chained up elephant?


I don't know who Mary Chipperfield is but again point out where i have said beating an animal is ok and stop twisting what i am saying, i don't know whether you have misread my posts but your making out that i agree with beating animals and its nasty!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Blitz said:


> But it was acting in character, that was why it was on the show.
> 
> my goodness, 90 percent of dog owners had better be banned from owning dogs then.


who said anything about banning someone for teaching a dog to sit by shoving the bum to floor?  - I merely pointed out how CM does it. I can think of better ways to teach a dog to sit - but then my dogs think for themselves, once I teach sit and ask them to they know whats expected, it doesnt take me to do it 

- The dog in the clip was on the show for its aggression, it did not act in an aggessive manner UNTIL CM nudged the dog from behind 

Theres me thinking I had managed to escape this thread


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> as i keep saying others are made that way by not been corrected when they exibit a specific behaviour


If you feel that they should have been corrected with punishment for the undesirable behaviour and being put in their place, I wouldn't agree with you.


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## brackenhwv (Mar 28, 2010)

Lexi, getting a treat from the back never stopped my horses going forward, as used it when a specific thing came up so they didn't get it all the time and were weaned off of treats quickly once behaviour established and praise/ strokes instead, I know you get it ! and you don't want to stop forward motion, but sometimes you can come up against a problem that needs worked on and food can make the process go faster. Bribery and corrupyion works everytime !


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

This is my original post, in full.



newfiesmum said:


> I have seen him do this as well, but if he knows these signals, why does he seem incapable of identifying them when they are exhibited by a dog?
> 
> That is the second time you have boldly stated "you are wrong" when replying to me. No reasoned argument, just "you are wrong". Well, I think you are wrong.
> 
> ...


This is your reply



emsky said:


> So according to you there is no such thing as a naughty or viscious horse?


So where is my contradiction?



emsky said:


> Right so putting your contradiction to one side, yes some are made that way by been treated poorly but as i keep saying *others are made that way by not been corrected when they exibit a specific behaviour*. I never said they were born that way so stop twisting what i am saying.
> 
> I don't know who Mary Chipperfield is but again point out where i have said beating an animal is ok and stop twisting what i am saying, i don't know whether you have misread my posts but your making out that i agree with beating animals and its nasty!


Horses do not become nasty by NOT being corrected; they become nasty through being ill treated, whether that be in the name of "training" or just because their scumbag human is having a bad day.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Elles said:


> If you feel that they should have been corrected with punishment for the undesirable behaviour and being put in their place, I wouldn't agree with you.


Do carry a whip when riding? Do you use a lunging whip when lunging? Do you push your horse back when he barges you? Holding his leg up because he's dancing around when been clipped? All forms of firm but fair punishment that i think are acceptable!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> But you cannot take the place in an animal's life of a member of his own species. If you were to kick a horse to tell him off, he would very quickly kick you back and you would definitely come off worse. The same goes for dogs; he knows you are not a dog and you do not speak his language fluently. I have never seen a dog wrestle another to the ground unless it has been trained to do so, as in Japanese dog wrestling. I have seen many dogs submit willingly by lying on the ground, but I have never seen them forced there by another dog.


I have frequently seen a more dominant dog force a dog onto the ground and hold it there till it has submitted. and no, the dog has not submitted until held there. I have also seen my younger dog tip my older dog over by mistake and then hold her there with her weight just because she could. When the older dog managed to escape she stalked off in a rage then stalked back and pulled the young dogs hair very hard.



Jasper's Bloke said:


> Dogs are not humans and they do not learn in anywhere near as great a variety of ways that we do. Mimicry/copying is a technique used only by the most intelligent animals such as (certain!) humans, great apes and whales/dolphins. Demonstrating a behaviour to a dog does not teach them the behaviour, they simply cannot understand the connection. When you push a dog into a sit you are not teaching them how to sit, you are pushing them into a sit, the fact that they eventually sit when you move your hand towards their back end does not mean that they have learned what you are trying to do, it means that they are trying to avoid the discomfort of being pushed into position.
> 
> Getting back to the point in hand, if Mr Milan were able to understand this himself, he would be a much more successful dog trainer, but a far less successful TV presenter.


Of course you cant demonstrate to the dog in a way that it has to mimic you hmy: But you demonstrate what you want it to do by getting it to sit whether you use your hand to put it gently into a sit (you normally need to repeat about 3 times before a pup starts to understand) or hold a titbit up in the air in the hope the bottom will go down when the head comes up. Or you can do as some do and just stand around like a prat till your dog happens to sit then give the command and praise it.



newfiesmum said:


> Whilst playing being the operative phrase. Mine do that all the time while playing, but CM is not playing when he shoves and holds some poor creature down in the famous Alpha Roll, is he?
> There are lots of animal college courses that are just as stuck in the dark ages as CM himself. Doesn't mean it is right. You train a horse with polos and pony nuts, not punches on the nose.


No he is not playing and neither is the dog that flattens another dog and holds it down till it submits. That isnt saying I agree with CM doing it though, just saying dogs do most definitely do it to each other.
As for training a horse with polos and pony nuts - yes you can with certain horses and if your timing and common sense are above average - but many owners who try it end up with a biting kicking monster who wont do anything without a titbit.



brackenhwv said:


> Why ? To reinforce a wanted behaviour ! My sister had a section D gelding, not a horse I really liked, the most unwilling ride I've came across, untrustworthy, known to have a boot out at a passing human, made the most awful faces, I' sure he was swearing, telling us to eff off. Why , because the 2nd human that owned him, battered him with a lunge whip, so he just marked all humans as the same He didn't forget. He would have ended up at the meatman, so he was retired at an early age, but with kindness, food reinforcement, his outlook became that not all humans were that bad. Funnily enough you could put anyone with mental health issues or a disability on or near him and he became a totally different horse.


I have one similar to that, except he is only funny on the ground, he is perfect when being ridden or driven. He has been in some fairly hard yards in his life and is quite stressed by a lot of people around him. I understand this and try and make sure it does not happen and I also keep well out of the way when he is eating.
If he has to be pressured at all and is getting worried I will talk to him and reassure him but if he actually kicks out at me (which he has done twice in 3 years) he gets very firmly booted. And no, he does not attack me, he takes it and stops kicking.
Years ago I had a yearling who thought it very funny to run up to you in the field and turn round and give you both barrels. My sister was with me one day, totally non horsey, and yearling tried it with her. She immediately booted it hard on the rump with her foot and the pony never ever tried it again. If she had not had a suitable punishment that shocked her out of the behaviour she would have hurt someone and the bad behaviour would have escalated into something even worse, as is so often seen with horses that are not disciplined.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> This is my original post, in full.
> 
> This is your reply
> 
> So where is my contradiction?


_YOU- I don't believe a horse kicking or biting is naughty behaviour. Horses are real scaredy cats and the only reason they may do this is if they are afraid or startled.

ME- Your so wrong, yes they are scaredy cats and they do lash out when pushed but there are naughty and vicious horses too.

You-That is the second time you have boldly stated "you are wrong" when replying to me. No reasoned argument, just "you are wrong". Well, I think you are wrong.

I have seen the odd one or two nasty horses, but they have been made that way by harsh treatment and their usual defence is to charge at people._

So firstly you didn't class a horse kicking and biting as naughty behaviour but been afraid or startled, then you said that i was wrong to say otherwise then you said that you had infact seen a couple of nasty horses.



newfiesmum said:


> Horses do not become nasty by NOT being corrected; they become nasty through being ill treated, whether that be in the name of "training" or just because their scumbag human is having a bad day.


Not sure when the word naughty turned to nasty but horses become NAUGHTY through not been corrected!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Do carry a whip when riding? Do you use a lunging whip when lunging? Do you push your horse back when he barges you? Holding his leg up because he's dancing around when been clipped? All forms of firm but fair punishment that i think are acceptable!


No I don't use whips to punish horses, no I don't push them back, horses are into pressure animals and pushing just encourages them to lean, I train them to back up and they don't barge. No I wouldn't hold his leg up to clip him, I'd take the time I needed for him to be comfortable with clipping and not needing to be physically kept still.

Many horse trainers would be more than happy with what you're saying. I happen to use positive, reward based training methods to train horses and am learning how to apply similar methods to my dog, so I wouldn't be interested in using physical punishment, coercion or control in that way.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

emsky said:


> _YOU- I don't believe a horse kicking or biting is naughty behaviour. Horses are real scaredy cats and the only reason they may do this is if they are afraid or startled.
> 
> ME- Your so wrong, yes they are scaredy cats and they do lash out when pushed but there are naughty and vicious horses too.
> 
> ...


You said that horses could be vicious, which is the same as nasty as far as I'm concerned. If a horse kicks out because it is startled or afraid, that is not naughty or nasty.

This thread is supposed to be about Cesar Millan, who has nothing to do with horses, thank God.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> You said that horses could be vicious, which is the same as nasty as far as I'm concerned. If a horse kicks out because it is startled or afraid, that is not naughty or nasty.
> 
> This thread is supposed to be about Cesar Millan, who has nothing to do with horses, thank God.


To which i have agreed that horses lashing out due to been afraid is understandable. But if a horse kicks out at you or tries to bite you whether its been ill treated as a youngster or not and just because your in its stable thats VICIOUS behaviour! Been around youngsters and ponies who also bite and nip when you take your eye off them, that is NAUGHTY behavior.
Yes this thread is about CM as my original post said before everyone jumped down my throat for saying he was ok and declaring me an animal beater, i said that both horse and a dogs interactions with each other are very much the same. Horses and Dogs withstand a lot from each other and nowhere did i see any abuse or beating going on in CM's videos.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Dogs are not humans and they do not learn in anywhere near as great a variety of ways that we do. Mimicry/copying is a technique used only by the most intelligent animals such as (certain!) humans, great apes and whales/dolphins. Demonstrating a behaviour to a dog does not teach them the behaviour, they simply cannot understand the connection.


I would again like to disagree 

From my own personal experience with Samson i have seen that he has learnt by some form of copying or mimicry how to open the garden door to come inside..he was not taught how to do this by any method what so ever by neither me nor anyone in the family. How do you explain that?

[youtube_browser]09YunBAoazY[/youtube_browser]

Today i also noticed him try to undo the latch on the gate at the front of the house which leads on to the footpath and road..i immediately had to tell him no as i dont want him to learn how to open the gate...


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Elles said:


> No I don't use whips to punish horses, no I don't push them back, horses are into pressure animals and pushing just encourages them to lean, I train them to back up and they don't barge. No I wouldn't hold his leg up to clip him, I'd take the time I needed for him to be comfortable with clipping and not needing to be physically kept still.
> 
> Many horse trainers would be more than happy with what you're saying. I happen to use positive, reward based training methods to train horses and am learning how to apply similar methods to my dog, so I wouldn't be interested in using physical punishment, coercion or control in that way.


Wow i knew you would say that even before you posted it. So what would you do with a horse that was ticklish? No amount of positive training or treats is going to make a ticklish horse stand still. How would you control a stallion that is controlled by its hormones and wouldn't give a damn what treat you were offering him or what he had been taught?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Why has this thread gone onto horses? You can't compare the ways of a dog to a horse.*


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Why has this thread gone onto horses? You can't compare the ways of a dog to a horse.*


I originally compared their behaviour within their herds/packs, i disagree i see similarities in heirachy and behaviour towards lesser members of a pack/herd. Wish i hadn't of bothered now some people on here are the biggest tools going!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

emsky said:


> Wow i knew you would say that even before you posted it. So what would you do with a horse that was ticklish? No amount of positive training or treats is going to make a ticklish horse stand still. How would you control a stallion that is controlled by its hormones and wouldn't give a damn what treat you were offering him or what he had been taught?


Although you are talking about horses, I think this does bring up and reinforces a salient issue with Millan.

What you, Emsky, are saying I think is that treats etc., will not stop a horse, dog [enter-animal-here] from attacking, biting, being hostile once its started. And I'd agree, the reason being that the animals have reached & surpassed their stress threshold and are in survival mode, meaning they will choose either to fight, flight, freeze (or, in the case of dogs, sometimes hump in low-level stress interactions).

A golden rule of rewards-based training in any animal is to keep them subthreshold. If I work with a dog that lunges at other dogs, I do not go up to other dogs, wait for the the dog to react, then try to distract/punish them. This is pushing them overthreshold, and they will cease to learn much without considerable force, and even then will be subject to learned helplessness at best (what Millan calls 'calm submission)- see Learned Helplessness 
for more details.

In keeping them subthreshold, we can teach them new things and change underlying emotions, however. With the same dog, I would stand x number of feet away where they prick their ears up at the other dog, and reward for looking. Gradually decreasing the distance, we can desensitise the dog to other dogs, or whatever worries them in the environment. This is the heart of rewards-based training.

With the ticklish horse, why not touch lightly, and reward. Repeat, repeat, repeat, until your touches are getting longer and more formal. Marker/clicker training can be great for these exercises.

Youtube have some great videos. Food rewards are used to train every animal in captivity nowadays- lions, whales, hyenas, elephants, dolphins etc. Check out this lion learning to present its side- in the future the lion will be able to take injections, for example, as the association will have been learnt that the exercise is actually enjoyable (however, the injection may hurt a small bit still!): 
Lion Presenting Side | drsophiayin.com - YouTube


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

emsky said:


> I originally compared their behaviour within their herds/packs, i disagree i see similarities in heirachy and behaviour towards lesser members of a pack/herd. Wish i hadn't of bothered now some people on here are the biggest tools going!


With respect, I disagree with you, but I have evidence to prove it. Hierarchies may be evident, but that is not the same as saying that those hierarchies are violent circles, that correct all bad behaviour with physical punishments. Canine packs are very harmonious in fact, and aggression is the exception, not the rule.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

emsky said:


> I originally compared their behaviour within their herds/packs, i disagree i see similarities in heirachy and behaviour towards lesser members of a pack/herd. Wish i hadn't of bothered now some people on here are the biggest tools going!


*PMSL i love that expression,one of my dads favourite sayings.*


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

You're right, this is the dog forum, not the horse forum.

I agree with Rottiefan. I also said earlier that I wouldn't have a problem with someone using reasonable force to protect themselves, but they should analyse the situation and make a change, not view reasonable force as a training method. 



> With the ticklish horse, why not touch lightly, and reward. Repeat, repeat, repeat, until your touches are getting longer and more formal. Marker/clicker training can be great for these exercises.


There can be many reasons for a horse being ticklish, I address the reason and then desensitise using reward based methods of training. 

Stallions are not controlled by hormones. Are you saying an entire dog is untrainable other than by forceful methods too? Nice link Rottiefan. :thumbup1:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Why has this thread gone onto horses? You can't compare the ways of a dog to a horse.*


No idea, Janice. It wasn't me, honest.



emsky said:


> I originally compared their behaviour within their herds/packs, i disagree i see similarities in heirachy and behaviour towards lesser members of a pack/herd. Wish i hadn't of bothered now some people on here are the biggest tools going!


Why? Because we don't agree with you? It is not just our opinions that dogs do not live in packs, it is the conclusion of top animal behaviourists, highly qualified ones, after years of study and research.

To call those people Tools (whatever that means) is rather ridiculous.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I used to like Cesar Milan when I first go into dog ownership, as I also did with Jan Fennell. However, as I learnt more about dogs I began to see that both of their techniques are based on flawed and debunked dominance theories. The JF technique is a lot more passive, however, than CM's alpha roll etc.

I found this a useful article that explained why they were wrong:

What′s wrong with using 'dominance&rs to explain the behaviour of dogs?

A trainer I've been to did credit his ability to read dog body language, despite diaagreeing with his techniques.

I haven't read all the posts so sorry if that links been posted earlier.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> Although you are talking about horses, I think this does bring up and reinforces a salient issue with Millan.
> 
> What you, Emsky, are saying I think is that treats etc., will not stop a horse, dog [enter-animal-here] from attacking, biting, being hostile once its started. And I'd agree, the reason being that the animals have reached & surpassed their stress threshold and are in survival mode, meaning they will choose either to fight, flight, freeze (or, in the case of dogs, sometimes hump in low-level stress interactions).
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree with you here but this method cannot be compared with putting/not putting a dog in a sit.

I know we are trying to get away from horses but I have a 4 year old pony who I have not owned long. I wanted to clip off his hairy beard and when I tried a few weeks ago he let me touch him once with the clippers then reacted violently. I did not press him, I backed off, let them run for a while so he heard the noise and forgot all about it as I had not had him long enough for him to trust me. I had another attempt the other day. Same reaction so I just kept hold of him, spoke quietly and kept the clippers quite close to his head wherever he moved. Once he stood I turned them off, rubbed them on his chin and then turned them back on and followed him around again till he stopped at which point I clipped him with no problems. Probably the people that do not advocate any pressure on the horse at all would still be trying to clip him 6 months later.
Then again I have an older one that will not tolerate being clipped. He has no choice, he is suitably restrained and it is done without his consent.

So when you can empathise with an animal you should have a fairly good idea of why it is behaving as it is and you should adjust the way you manage it accordingly.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I absolutely agree with you here but this method cannot be compared with putting/not putting a dog in a sit.
> 
> I know we are trying to get away from horses but I have a 4 year old pony who I have not owned long. I wanted to clip off his hairy beard and when I tried a few weeks ago he let me touch him once with the clippers then reacted violently. I did not press him, I backed off, let them run for a while so he heard the noise and forgot all about it as I had not had him long enough for him to trust me. I had another attempt the other day. Same reaction so I just kept hold of him, spoke quietly and kept the clippers quite close to his head wherever he moved. Once he stood I turned them off, rubbed them on his chin and then turned them back on and followed him around again till he stopped at which point I clipped him with no problems. Probably the people that do not advocate any pressure on the horse at all would still be trying to clip him 6 months later.
> Then again I have an older one that will not tolerate being clipped. He has no choice, he is suitably restrained and it is done without his consent.
> ...


No animal is a robot and will of course react in different ways. In your first case, I would say that the horse has learnt that by tolerating the clipping, it soon goes away. He may not like it, but he has not reacted violently. The problem with this though, in my experience, is that physiologically, stress can still build up to the level, that one day, the animal has an adverse reaction again- perhaps worse than any before.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

emsky said:


> So according to you there is no such thing as a naughty or viscious horse?


Naughty yes. Horses arent born with the knowledge of how to interact with people, so what they see as appropriate and natural behaviour, we might not and deem is naughty.

Vicious, no. Biting, kicking, lunging etc are all behaviour born about from how a horse has been treated. To push a flight animal, into a fight mode take a certain level of brutality or psychological neglect.

Bad temperaments are caused by bad horsemanship.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

i have to day I'm more of a Victoria Stilwell fan


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> No idea, Janice. It wasn't me, honest.
> 
> Why? Because we don't agree with you? It is not just our opinions that dogs do not live in packs, it is the conclusion of top animal behaviourists, highly qualified ones, after years of study and research.
> 
> To call those people Tools (whatever that means) is rather ridiculous.


I've already said it was me, and i am calling those who made out i said i beat animals 'Tools', it can mean what ever you want i'm sure you get the jist. Whats ridiculous is those morons that twisted my words and as for you not agreeing with me i don't care. I posted a favourable opinion of CM and got my head chewed off, and accused of been an animal beater! The only reason this thread has stayed with horses so long is because i've had to defend my opinions from being twisted into something that i never said. Those people are TOOLS! 
I don't want to get back onto horses but horses are my career, i work in a fast paced enviroment where the sort of training is too time consuming and likely to get me fired. Unfortunately its quicker to lift a horses leg up or push them back when needed. Although its a lovely thought to train a horse on a treat based method i don't have that option and time. I was also taught by people who are AI's and I's with level 4 education so they are hardly uneducated people.
Now getting back to dogs and CM i originally said before it was all twisted was that i didn't think CM giving a tap with his heel was harsh compared to what a fight for dominance between two dogs can be. I don't class this as physical abusing a dog.


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## Honey Bee (Mar 29, 2011)

emsky said:


> Wow i knew you would say that even before you posted it. So what would you do with a horse that was ticklish? No amount of positive training or treats is going to make a ticklish horse stand still. How would you control a stallion that is controlled by its hormones and wouldn't give a damn what treat you were offering him or what he had been taught?


I am aware that this thread is supposed to be about CM and all this talk about horses is off topic but as you have asked this question about ticklishness I shall reply.

I had a New Forest mare from the age of 4 months to 15 years. She was the most ticklish, squirmy, squeally pony I have ever known, She would lash out and try to bite if you brushed her tummy, inside hind legs, put rugs on, did girths up or anything in connection with her nether regions. NZ rugs were a bloody nightmare. She was like an unexploded bomb when in season. It took many years of patience, a firm but gentle voice with stroking and sometimes food rewards to get her to accept touch on her belly and I invested a great deal of time on this but eventually I could do up her rug straps, clip her belly fully and clean her girly bits. She accepted all this because she had total trust that I would never hurt her nor punish her for the simple matter of being ticklish or mareish. We did an awful lot with her and she was cracking mare. 
This is what I would call whispering and not using these aggressive methods of control. This equally applies to dogs. There is always a reason why animals react badly to us. There are many positive ways of sorting the problems out if only we can be bothered to invest the necessary time.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

emsky said:


> Now getting back to dogs and CM i originally said before it was all twisted was that i didn't think CM giving a tap with his heel was harsh compared to what a fight for dominance between two dogs can be. I don't class this as physical abusing a dog.


I class it as abuse, simply because of the reactions from the dogs when he kicks them. Most of them show signs of immediate stress, pain, and fear. That, I do not like.

Dogs don't fight for dominance; they don't really form dominance relationships, it's much more complex than that. Dominance was a concept created in the 1920s, we've learnt a lot since then!


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> I class it as abuse, simply because of the reactions from the dogs when he kicks them. Most of them show signs of immediate stress, pain, and fear. That, I do not like.
> 
> Dogs don't fight for dominance; they don't really form dominance relationships, it's much more complex than that. Dominance was a concept created in the 1920s, we've learnt a lot since then!


I didn't see that, all i saw is a dog that was out of control with aggression immediately snap out of it and behave after he 'tapped it' i wouldn't call it a kick. People shake their heads and judge but if that dog had a hold of your own dog or you i'm certain you would resort to psyhical methods much stronger than that tap. Would that be cruel and abusive? Should it spiral to that stage before you use physical methods? If a dog ran up and attacked Murphy i would help and defend him in anyway i could and i don't mean holding a treat in my hand.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

emsky said:


> I didn't see that, all i saw is a dog that was out of control with aggression immediately snap out of it and behave after he 'tapped it' i wouldn't call it a kick. People shake their heads and judge but if that dog had a hold of your own dog or you i'm certain you would resort to psyhical methods much stronger than that tap. Would that be cruel and abusive? Should it spiral to that stage before you use physical methods? If a dog ran up and attacked Murphy i would help and defend him in anyway i could and i don't mean holding a treat in my hand.


Ah, but there's a difference surely, between Cesar walking along with a dog and touching/kicking a dog for focusing on another dog, and two dogs attacking each other. The cases Cesar uses in the touch in are unwarranted and dangerous.

Have a read of the calming signals sticky, then watch the video. There is so so much going on after he kicks/taps/touches them, and most of the time, it is pain the dogs show. Like the husky who 'fought back' at him- that was simple redirected aggression. The dog was scared/anxious of the approaching dog, Cesar taps him, the dog redirects that frustration onto Cesar- nothing to do with dominance as Cesar presumes with no evidence.

We have much better ways to deal with dogs. I may resort to physical methods if I was being attacked, or another dog was in serious danger of being hurt or killed, but those would start by restraining the dog as I know that meeting pain with pain or aggression with aggression is definitely not an appropriate way to deal with any organism.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Ah, but there's a difference surely, between Cesar walking along with a dog and touching/kicking a dog for focusing on another dog, and two dogs attacking each other. The cases Cesar uses in the touch in are unwarranted and dangerous.
> 
> Have a read of the calming signals sticky, then watch the video. There is so so much going on after he kicks/taps/touches them, and most of the time, it is pain the dogs show. Like the husky who 'fought back' at him- that was simple redirected aggression. The dog was scared/anxious of the approaching dog, Cesar taps him, the dog redirects that frustration onto Cesar- nothing to do with dominance as Cesar presumes with no evidence.
> 
> We have much better ways to deal with dogs. I may resort to physical methods if I was being attacked, or another dog was in serious danger of being hurt or killed, but those would start by restraining the dog as I know that meeting pain with pain or aggression with aggression is definitely not an appropriate way to deal with any organism.


Just read the thread and watched the video of Shadow, firstly the thread was very interesting, just realised how many calming signals Murphy throws at other dogs when we're out walking. Shadow who ripped CM's shirt? I can't agree that CM 'kicking' the dog set the dog off as the owners admitted to him turning on them previously. I think more likely frustration that he a) Cant get at the other dog b) can't run away. When he delivered the 'kick' instead of it shocking the dog to look at him as what normally happens, Shadow reacted how he normally does and attacking what was restraining him. Do i agree that restraining him by the noose was the best method? In that situation with the dog trying to bite me then yes, though i am with you on that there are better methods, in a situation like that i can't see any other choice. If the dog has never been trained any other way or refuses to listen what else can you do?


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Can I ask something maybe slightly off topic?

I have been wondering about the calming signals. Is there anyway a human could give off calming signals, say when a pup gets over-excited during play?

Also, if your dog is giving off calming signals because you told him off maybe a bit sterner than necessary, are there any doggy apology signals? Searched the dog behaviour threads but couldn't find any. Or would a dog give a calming signal? I know they don't hold grudges, but was just wondering?

I know there are some knowledgeable folk on here, so thought I'd throw it on here, since there is so much info on dog behaviour.


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## Mimie (Sep 4, 2011)

I think every trainer in the world even the best trainers have their own way to train dogs or other animals. We might agree to one and disagree to another. I reckon that there is no right or wrong, as before any animal become anyone's pet...nobody trained them. 
Some CM's methods really works on one of my dog, it is now becomes more submissive. But for the other one, I need some different approach.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Probably old news - but as I have no intyerest in CM
daddy died on March 04, 2010


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

DT said:


> Probably old news - but as I have no intyerest in CM
> daddy died on March 04, 2010


DT, are you and Janice having a location argument?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> DT, are you and Janice having a location argument?


T'is looking that way!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> DT, are you and Janice having a location argument?


And who's janice


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

DT said:


> T'is looking that way!


Thank you.

I was just being nosey as yours is so long i have to scroll across my screen to read it all.


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## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

terencesmum said:


> Can I ask something maybe slightly off topic?
> 
> I have been wondering about the calming signals. Is there anyway a human could give off calming signals, say when a pup gets over-excited during play?
> 
> ...


Get Turid Ragaas' book 'On Talking Terms with Dogs'. It's a great little read. You can absolutely use calming signals on your dog and other dogs. And there's also alternative methods to telling your dog off too, have a look through the training and behaviour forum - lots of help there!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

emsky said:


> Just read the thread and watched the video of Shadow, firstly the thread was very interesting, just realised how many calming signals Murphy throws at other dogs when we're out walking. Shadow who ripped CM's shirt? I can't agree that CM 'kicking' the dog set the dog off as the owners admitted to him turning on them previously. I think more likely frustration that he a) Cant get at the other dog b) can't run away. When he delivered the 'kick' instead of it shocking the dog to look at him as what normally happens, Shadow reacted how he normally does and attacking what was restraining him. Do i agree that restraining him by the noose was the best method? In that situation with the dog trying to bite me then yes, though i am with you on that there are better methods, in a situation like that i can't see any other choice. If the dog has never been trained any other way or refuses to listen what else can you do?


Cesar created that situation for himself, no ifs or buts in my mind. I have seen people get redirected on, and have been redirected on myself, it can be anything from saying a stern word to tightening up on the lead.

Shadow is walking along looking very stressed (ears back, tense face, panting) with a choke/prong collar round his neck, and once Cesar says 'Hey' and kicks him, he reacts. There are numerous ways in which you can help this dog other than being a complete and utter idiot towards him; this dogs needs to trust again, not be corrected and punished.

I do not believe this dog wants to get towards the other dog, there is nothing in its behaviour that indicates that. Aggressive dogs only become offensive because they feel they have to and have learnt that this is the quickest way to defuse a threat. Most of these will show outward signs of discomfort well before reacting. It is our job to read these, stop when the dog is feeling uncomfortable, keep them under their stress threshold and build a positive association with the presence of other dogs. Look at the other dog, get a treat; look back, get a treat; walk closer, repeat; now treat for looking at the other dog, then looking back at you; get closer etc., etc.



terencesmum said:


> Can I ask something maybe slightly off topic?
> 
> I have been wondering about the calming signals. Is there anyway a human could give off calming signals, say when a pup gets over-excited during play?
> 
> ...


Yes, we can give off calming signals, but I think they are pretty limited in terms of what we can achieve by them. I yawn a lot passing dogs in the street and meeting new dogs, as well as only give them small amounts of eye contact and keeping distance. I was working with a dog with other day and he was nervous of me, lay down around 10 feet away. I yawned a few times, looked away a lot, and in 2 or 3 minutes, he came and plonked himself closer to me, around 2 feet. That was nice. Then the cheese came out 

Dogs don't hold grudges, so if you have told a dog off too sternly, I would work to reward any good behaviour straight away to maintain the positive relationship.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

My dogs must be very calm toward me then I yawn all the time at the minute!!!!! :smilewinkgrin:


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Jonesey said:


> Get Turid Ragaas' book 'On Talking Terms with Dogs'. It's a great little read. You can absolutely use calming signals on your dog and other dogs. And there's also alternative methods to telling your dog off too, have a look through the training and behaviour forum - lots of help there!


I have just watched some of her clips on youtube  very interesting.

@rottiefan: I try not to tell him off but I have the occasional slip :crying: i feel awful after and always make up with extra cuddle time later. My OH says I overthink things. I once felt awful for 2 days because I accidentally kicked him when he was walking between my legs.

I am just trying to learn much, much more about how to train Terence. He seems to be able to read us much easier than we read him sometimes.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2011)

well out of my depth now,horses and everything going on!!!!!il get me coat


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Try Dr Sophia Yin - she's fantastic and clicker trains cats and chickens as well as dogs. Can see her on you tube.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i understand [CM/DW] is TV, & not everything is as it seems,
> but i agree with his philosophies!


his 'philosophy / ies', singular or plural, get varied responses - many of the things he says were hoary 
with age when i was a child; in the decades since, they haven't become any newer; they are not original.

_'dogs need exercise.'_ Duh-oh - what vet, trainer, dog-walker or handler would ever disagree?  
vets have tried to get owners to exercise their dogs regularly for years on end, if only to peel off fat.

_'dogs need rules - AKA limits or bounds.'_ yeah? this is news? 99% of the behaviors 
that humans object to in dogs are perfectly-normal behavior; they just happen too often or at the wrong time. 
dog barks at a stranger who is trespassing? most ppl think that's GREAT. Same dog barks at visiting relatives? 
most ppl DON't think that's great; in fact, they scold the dog for barking, or simply yell _*Shut up!*_ 
[that works, :lol: - Not!]

_'dogs need affection.'_ Gee - stunning news, eh?  human-attention is actually 
one of the most-powerful reinforcers for dogs - juvie-pups don't respond as well as older-pups & adult-dogs 
to mere vocal praise; verbal praise becomes reinforcing when it's paired with primary reinforcers, like food 
[treats or meals], social contact, fun games [tug, chase...], & other dog-familiar joys.

the majority of the objections to what's SAID on the TV-program regards those statements 
that are either outdated advice, disproved ideas, or flat-out wrong - like the one-time statement that, 
_"the right *energy* can *cure* aggression'._ No CAAB or vet-behaviorist or clinical behaviorist would 
ever agree with that statement; aggro can be reduced, redirected, managed or controlled. 
that does NOT mean it's _gone._


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Why has this thread gone onto horses? *


??Me too My eyes are bleeding from all this reading!

However whilst we're conveniently on that subject, I never once saw or heard of Monty Roberts kicking a horse to achieve a desired effect. :wink:


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Zaros said:


> ??Me too My eyes are bleeding from all this reading!
> 
> However whilst we're conveniently on that subject, I never once saw or heard of Monty Roberts kicking a horse to achieve a desired effect. :wink:


You do when your on its back, or should we be using a reward based theory or clicker training now?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Zaros said:


> ??Me too My eyes are bleeding from all this reading!
> 
> However whilst we're conveniently on that subject, I never once saw or heard of Monty Roberts kicking a horse to achieve a desired effect. :wink:


Dont start a Monty Roberts thread. He makes CM look like an angel round animals.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> No animal is a robot and will of course react in different ways. In your first case, I would say that the horse has learnt that by tolerating the clipping, it soon goes away. He may not like it, but he has not reacted violently. The problem with this though, in my experience, is that physiologically, stress can still build up to the level, that one day, the animal has an adverse reaction again- perhaps worse than any before.


And I would say you were not there and you do not know what you are talking about. Once a horse has accepted something that is introduced in a quiet way it seldom reacts again to it during its life. Clipping is something horses have to get used to. A pair of noisy clippers approaching a horse will frighten it the first time. If it trusts you and backing off does not get rid of the clippers it will accept them and realise there is nothing to be frightened of. Horse is then quiet to clip for life.
My second example is an older horse, I have no idea how he was introduced to clippers or to anything else, but his reaction to anything he does not like is to stand up and punch you. Not very safe and to be avoided at all costs! Therefore he has to be restrained before the clippers or whatever else comes out. Or spend several years getting him used to them and not clipping him, therefore not using him in the winter, till he does get used to them. I spent several weeks with no improvement and then he just had to be clipped or turned away for the winter.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm feed up with people saying CM kicks dogs,:mad2: it's a slight push with the side of his foot just enough to distract the dog from the behaviour it's doing.

If you were to kick a dog with your outside foot while walking, you would most likely and up on your flat on your face or the dog biting you.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Jonesey said:


> Get Turid Ragaas' book 'On Talking Terms with Dogs'. It's a great little read. You can absolutely use calming signals on your dog and other dogs. And there's also alternative methods to telling your dog off too, have a look through the training and behaviour forum - lots of help there!


Also just watched a couple of her videos and one thing i noticed is that the dogs are all well behaved, placid dogs that already show respect for their humans. I'd like to see how she would handle one of the dogs CM trains.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

emsky said:


> You do when your on its back, or should we be using a reward based theory or clicker training now?


I don't know how you were taught to ride, but I was taught NEVER to kick a horse. You use your weight to achieve things. As my old riding instructor used to say "if you need to kick the horse, you haven't been told to achieve things in a positive manner". Just like you don't yank on the reins...


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

terencesmum said:


> I don't know how you were taught to ride, but I was taught NEVER to kick a horse. You use your weight to achieve things. As my old riding instructor used to say "if you need to kick the horse, you haven't been told to achieve things in a positive manner". Just like you don't yank on the reins...


Well acording to previous post any contact with the foot is classed as a kick... So yes i have been taught to ride by using my heels/feet as has everyone i know.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

emsky said:


> Well acording to previous post any contact with the foot is classed as a kick... So yes i have been taught to ride by using my heels/feet as has everyone i know.


Hmmm, my training was very dressage heavy, so I wonder if that made a difference.

I wouldn't have been able to achieve much with my feet. I am 6ft tall and on an average horse, my feet just dangle in the air under their belly 
So, weight distribution all the way for me.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

All this fuss is over a little matter known as 'Ambiguity'.

It's not necessarily what it is but, moreover, what it looks like. How we interpret what we see.

Despite the questionable/evidently controversial tactic immediately diverting the Dogs attention, I'm sure if anyone was to take a leaf out of Millan's book and practice the manoeuvre on the street in full public view they'd be followed home by an angry mob if not verbally abused on the spot.

Millan is apparently 'self taught' which suggests if he can find the answer to any given problem then so too can anyone else with an ounce of good old fashioned gumption.

After all we are supposed to be the most intelligent animal that walks the face of this earth.

Aren't we?


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2011)

you cant take any one type of training,be it from a book,or tv,as a bible to how to train your dog,each dog is different,and you have to find out what it responds best to.

i think cm has some very good training ideas,some of which i use,also i might read something on here...and try that..no 1 trainer is right,same as wrong.

when albert was younger,he was aggresive,he would bite(not nip)he bit my wifes face,and made it bleed,he was a nightmare,my wife took him to a training class(with a qaulified trainer)her advice was that albert was probably just a bad dog,and we should think about getting rid of him.

this is where il be unpopular...from then on,if he bit,he got a slap....it didnt take long for it to stop,now im not talking about a good hiding,but hard enough for him not to like it.

albert now,never ever bites,and will only mouth a tiny bit if hes playing(which is discouraged).now hes not frightened of me,hes a well rounded dog..i think sometimes these methods are needed,thats why i back cm,cos hes dealing with difficult dogs!.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Well acording to previous post any contact with the foot is classed as a kick... So yes i have been taught to ride by using my heels/feet as has everyone i know.


Please accept that you've been taught in a way that is not necessarily the same as others. I have never been taught to punch a horse in the face for biting, nor to kick a horse. Leg aids can be applied with the calf muscles, not a kick. If you kicked any of my horses you'd end up in the next county, or on your backside and I would not be very happy with you. 

You may not be interested in reward based training, but that does not mean it's not possible. If you are interested there are discussion forums and groups all over the Internet for the sharing of modern, reward based training methods and how to apply them with the horses.

This is a dog forum, so an in depth discussion on the merits and demerits of positive and negative reinforcement, positive and negative punishment and the use of aversives as it applies to horses wouldn't be appropriate, or I could type all day and I'm not even a clicker trainer.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> when albert was younger,he was aggresive,he would bite(not nip)he bit my wifes face,and made it bleed,he was a nightmare, from then on,*if he bit,he got a slap.*


Isn't this otherwise referred to as Aversion Therapy?

Treating one undesirable behaviour with yet another undesirable behaviour?


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2011)

Zaros said:


> Isn't this otherwise referred to as Aversion Therapy?
> 
> Treating one undesirable behaviour with yet another undesirable behaviour?


i dont care what its called,if it works,il use it!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I think if you own a large dog like a rottie it's even more important to find something that you're happy with and that works for you and your dog. 

To be honest if someone's aggressive pit bull, or mastiff met Cesar and was switched off and dead in the head and in half a day walking along quietly suffering learned helplessness, I'd not be that bothered. 

I think it's sad when people use his methods and switch off a perfectly happy, friendly dog, but for the ones who have been bred for the tendency and then taught to be aggressive, whether deliberately or not, I might be evil and hypocritical, but I'd rather they were put to sleep than continued on with dangerous behaviour, that's not fun for the dog or anyone around it. 

So can aggressive behaviour be suppressed for a lifetime, or is just a temporary fix, leading to a dog who is an unexploded bomb ready to explode any second?


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I'd be interested to see a 12 month later edition of CM to see if it is just a quick fix of if you let your guard down the dog reverts. All dogs push their luck when they think you aren't paying attention so I suppose all it takes is a slip in the owners concentration and could they go back to square one?


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Elles said:


> Please accept that you've been taught in a way that is not necessarily the same as others. I have never been taught to punch a horse in the face for biting, nor to kick a horse. Leg aids can be applied with the calf muscles, not a kick. If you kicked any of my horses you'd end up in the next county, or on your backside and I would not be very happy with you.
> 
> You may not be interested in reward based training, but that does not mean it's not possible. If you are interested there are discussion forums and groups all over the Internet for the sharing of modern, reward based training methods and how to apply them with the horses.
> 
> This is a dog forum, so an in depth discussion on the merits and demerits of positive and negative reinforcement, positive and negative punishment and the use of aversives as it applies to horses wouldn't be appropriate, or I could type all day and I'm not even a clicker trainer.


 As has been mentioned you can learn a hundred different things off many different people and take a bit of each out of everything you learn! Just because i was told it was ok to bop a horse on the nose if it bit you doesn't mean i followed that advise....! Now as for the kick i was making a point in a round about way that to say kick doesn't neccesarily mean kick (like a ball) as was said previously, yes i use my heels in a nudge or tap on the horses sides and yes super sensitive horses are more respondant to squeezing with your calves. THIS IS NOT CRUELTY OR ABUSE to push on a horse this way! I have worked with horses on livery yards, showjumping yards and riding schools and seen ONE person use the method you use. His horse was perfectly trained to suit his need but guess what? When he got on a riding school horse he had to use his heels as the horse only knew those signals and he used a whip *gasp* as the horse was taking the biscuit. The horse looked amazing within five minutes of him riding her. Don't make out i'm cruel for something that most of the equine world have been taught and don't threaten me as i always ride another persons horse how they best advise me. Its not like i get on, boot the horse, scream YEEE HAAA and gallop off!


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Elles said:


> So can aggressive behaviour be suppressed for a lifetime, or is just a temporary fix, leading to a dog who is an unexploded bomb ready to explode any second?


 That crossed my mind with the aggresive pitbull and goes for all methods of training.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Don't make out i'm cruel for something that most of the equine world have been taught and don't threaten me as i always ride another persons horse how they best advise me. Its not like i get on, boot the horse, scream YEEE HAAA and gallop off!


I haven't said anywhere you are cruel. I've said you're mistaken to think that's how everyone does everything and imply that positive reward based methods don't work with horses.

I didn't threaten you. I told you if you kick my horses you'll end up in the next county or on your backside, neither of which would have anything to do with me.

There are reasons riding school horses are often how they are, but this is not the place to discuss it, other than to say, that I believe most often it's nothing to do with their taking the biscuit.

We won't agree, so let's stop discussing this on a dog forum.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> ...most sensible people will take bits... of advice that suits their dog!, [Cesar] Millan says this himself...
> a lot of what he says & does IMO is spot-on!


 - what he says can be classed in 3 ways: antique & cliched truisms, outdated & untrue, or his concepts & untrue - 
IMO, in the opinion of other reputable sources [vet-behaviorists, CAABs, & other credentialed pros], 
& IME - as i've seen many, many people [professional & pet-owners, novice & experienced] attempt these 
techniques for over 30-years, as a child & as an adult. Look up *Bill Koehler, Barbara Woodhouse, 
& Captain Haggerty - * all were post-WW2 trainers with lots of media attention, highly regarded, 
very influential, *& all did precisely the same things to & with dogs as seen on CM/DW, in many cases.* 
none of the 3 are highly-regarded by most modern, humane trainers - & definitely are not portrayed 
as role-models for _How To Train_ by CAABs, vet-behaviorists, clinical behaviorists, & other 
credentialed professionals who specialize in behavior.

- *flooding* a reactive animal with a known-trigger?

- *provoking* a reaction in order to dramatize the behavior?

- *eliciting* a behavior in order to punish the person for doing that?

IMO it's unethical to elicit a behavior, then PUNISH the actor; sting operations are a set-up for failure, 
deeply unfair & patently unjust - if i leave food or candy on a low table, leave the room, & leave a child 
under 5-YO in that room, *i should not* punish the child if they eat my food or my candy; * 
i left it available to the child.*

children under the age of reason don't understand 'property' yet. If they like the food or the candy, 
that young child is likely to eat it; similarly any dog, as dogs are opportunistic eaters: if it's there, 
most dogs will eat it - that's why free-feeding so often leads to obesity in pet-dogs; IF FOOD IS OFFERED, 
DOGS WILL EAT IT. so if U refill the bowl with food every time the dog empties it, odds are very high 
that the dog will empty it more often than is needed to maintain their ideal weight, which = gaining weight.

setting-up anyone, human or nonhuman, to err - and then to *punish* that error - is IMO unethical, 
& further IME, both ineffective & with undesirable and often unpredictable side-effects. Fallout sucks.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Elles said:


> I haven't said anywhere you are cruel. I've said you're mistaken to think that's how everyone does everything and imply that positive reward based methods don't work with horses.
> 
> I didn't threaten you. I told you if you kick my horses you'll end up in the next county or on your backside, neither of which would have anything to do with me.
> 
> ...


People keep bringing horses and what i have previously said up, then i will reply. I never said that positive reward methods don't work, just not in every situation and not for every dog or horse. You and some others give the impression your looking down your nose at the way i have been taught and the methods i think are acceptable. Telling me if i kick your horse i'l end up in the next county is a threat to me! In a situation that will never happen it was pointless to say. 
Moving back to dogs and CM's videos all i see is results, where as the reward based ones all i see is talking or originally well behaved dogs then buy my book adverts. Not very helpful tips to the more 'difficult' dogs and i have tried many of these reward based tips out on my previous dominant aggresive Staffie and they never worked. Although apparantly there is no such thing as a dominant dog... even though all his signals screamed i'm the boss. I'm not looking down my nose at these techniques though, just saying in a lot of cases they don't work and a firmer approach is needed. In fact when i researched the Dobermann breed i remember reading 'Firm handling needed' on a lot of websites and i'm certain its the same for a lot of other breeds, so what does that mean? Ha ha just found this little gem  Alpha Humans - What does it mean to be dominant?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Honey Bee said:


> I read you'd done this on another thread... & I tried it with Honey, mainly [re] her traffic-phobia
> & it really worked... I stopped being tense & winding her up more. I still do it now if she's stressed by something
> large or very noisy. Being calm & non reactive, and not pulling [the dog] back, is an excellent training method.
> 
> *I didn't realise it had anything to do with Cesar Milan until now*...


being calm while handling a reactive dog [or horse, child, elephant, employee, other] *is Not a CM/DW exclusive.*

plenty of other current-trainers do that, recommend it, Have Done It; plenty of trainers who died before CM 
was an oocyte in his mother's ovary had used calm handling & avoided tug-of-war with a leash. It's well-known 
and has a lengthy history of use.

as i've said before: Most of what he says or does which is helpful or acceptable is hoary with age.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> You and some others give the impression your looking down your nose at the way i have been taught and the methods i think are acceptable.


If that's the impression I gave, I'm sorry, it was not intended. I got the impression you think I'm some kind of idiot who doesn't know what they're talking about. lol

Positive training methods aren't generally followed in the mainstream horse sector of course, you're quite right and those of us that don't toe the line are often thought of as too soft, when we're actually pretty effective and using a method of training, not cuddling and treating our animals to be nice to them, though we might do that too.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Elles said:


> If that's the impression I gave, I'm sorry, it was not intended. I got the impression you think I'm some kind of idiot who doesn't know what they're talking about. lol
> 
> Positive training methods aren't generally followed in the mainstream horse sector of course, you're quite right and those of us that don't toe the line are often thought of as too soft, when we're actually pretty effective and using a method of training, not cuddling and treating our animals to be nice to them, though we might do that too.


I don't think anyone who uses these methods are idiots and its something i will use when i get a puppy as i truly believe if these methods are introduced from the start they will work. But to introduce them on an older dog such as the ones CM works with or other 'highly strung' dogs then from my personal experience i think a firmer approach is needed.


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

I personally like Ceasers methods, I think each to there own if you prefer someone elses methods thats your choice, just because someone does not like what you like dosnt mean they are wrong. It all depends on the dog aswel tbh. 

yeah ceaser makes it look easy in his show but so does victoria stilwell and in her show. 

Im all for trainning a human and not the dog because unless we as owners know how too we cannot enforce it too our dogs. 

My oh is a keen ceaser fan and hooch is a fantastic dog because of him finding ceaser and he has been helping me with stan and he is now so much better when offlead too how he was before. 

Each to there own and whatevr works for you. 

Michelle


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

Has anyone on here been to any of his live seminars either when he came to the uk, or in the usa? Would be interesting to know if anyone has actually met the guy and then tell us what they think of him?


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## xshelly_stanliex (May 4, 2010)

My oh went to one last year when he was in the uk at wembely arena and thought he was very good. 

Michelle


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

xshelly_stanliex said:


> My oh went to one last year when he was in the uk at wembely arena and thought he was very good.
> 
> Michelle


I wonder if any of the haters have been?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

albert 1970 said:


> i dont care what its called,if it works,il use it!


* Nice to see i'm not alone.*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

emsky said:


> ...[reward-based] methods... [are what] i will use when i get a puppy as i truly believe
> if these methods are introduced from the start they'll work. But to introduce them on an older dog such as the ones
> CM works with or other 'highly strung' dogs then from my personal experience i think a firmer approach is needed.


 many reward-based trainers specialize in aggression, including dogs with serious bite-histories, *without* 
using any of the tools or handling methods shown on CM/DW episodes.

i've done so myself; i've never used a prong, choke or other aversive collars on such dogs, as i'd long before 
dropped their use with teaching average dogs & saw no reason to re-introduce them to my toolbox for B-Mod. 
i don't roll, poke, 'tap' dogs with my toe , scruff dogs, pin them down, flood a dog, provoke a reaction 
in order to punish the dog, etc.

i find re-teaching a new emotional response [which is what B-Mod is intended to do] solves the problem.

i've seen confront, flood, provoke / tease, pin or roll the dog, etc, result in injuries to persons 
& greatly-worsen the presenting complaint: the reactive behavior, whether that's hyperarousal, aggro, 
manic barking, lunging, redirected bites, whatever it may be - * gets worse, not better, 
or it goes 'underground' & later re-emerges as a full-blown, more intense aggro, minus growls, barks, 
etc,* so that the dog stands quietly one moment & is assaulting another dog or person the next.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

emsky said:


> I don't think anyone who uses these methods are idiots and its something i will use when i get a puppy as i truly believe if these methods are introduced from the start they will work. But to introduce them on an older dog such as the ones CM works with or other 'highly strung' dogs then from my personal experience i think a firmer approach is needed.


I've seen a trainer clicker train a highly strung collie that would not let anyone near it to voluntarily allow a stranger to touch it in less than 5 minutes. I really think this particular trainer would run circles around Cesar Milan.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> many reward-based trainers specialize in aggression, including dogs with serious bite-histories, *without*
> using any of the tools or handling methods shown on CM/DW episodes.
> 
> i've done so myself; i've never used a prong, choke or other aversive collars on such dogs, as i'd long before
> ...


Ever thought of doin a tv show? hehe


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Blitz said:


> And I would say you were not there and you do not know what you are talking about. Once a horse has accepted something that is introduced in a quiet way it seldom reacts again to it during its life. Clipping is something horses have to get used to. A pair of noisy clippers approaching a horse will frighten it the first time. If it trusts you and backing off does not get rid of the clippers it will accept them and realise there is nothing to be frightened of. Horse is then quiet to clip for life.
> My second example is an older horse, I have no idea how he was introduced to clippers or to anything else, but his reaction to anything he does not like is to stand up and punch you. Not very safe and to be avoided at all costs! Therefore he has to be restrained before the clippers or whatever else comes out. Or spend several years getting him used to them and not clipping him, therefore not using him in the winter, till he does get used to them. I spent several weeks with no improvement and then he just had to be clipped or turned away for the winter.


The technique is called flooding, there are many problems with it and it often turns nasty. Sometimes it doesn't, depending on the individual, but it is most certainly not the safest or most humane method. See ya 



emsky said:


> Moving back to dogs and CM's videos all i see is results, where as the reward based ones all i see is talking or originally well behaved dogs then buy my book adverts. Not very helpful tips to the more 'difficult' dogs and i have tried many of these reward based tips out on my previous dominant aggresive Staffie and they never worked. Although apparantly there is no such thing as a dominant dog... even though all his signals screamed i'm the boss. I'm not looking down my nose at these techniques though, just saying in a lot of cases they don't work and a firmer approach is needed. In fact when i researched the Dobermann breed i remember reading 'Firm handling needed' on a lot of websites and i'm certain its the same for a lot of other breeds, so what does that mean? Ha ha just found this little gem  Alpha Humans - What does it mean to be dominant?


I very rarely see results on Cesar's programme. All I see is dogs being suppressed and showing signs of stress and anxiety, which he calls 'calm submission'.

Haha, that little gem of yours is from a website that has been pushed around and dishonored many times on this forum- it is full of complete an utter twaddle at best, with no evidence in the slightest. They've literally watched Cesar and thought about starting to train dogs. Have you seen the video where they pull a white GSD around for hours and hours on end? That made me sick to my stomach the last time I watched it.

Please, stop describing a dog as 'dominant' if you don't even care to take the time to understand what it means:

Elsevier

The Concept and Definition of Dominance - Drews 1996

The Alpha Fallacy | Dog Star Daily

These sources are peer-reviewed. A dog that shows aggression is not comfortable; it is not confident- it is scared, frustrated and knows only one behaviour pattern to defuse a situation. In hierarchies, although your old Staffy meeting strange dogs has nothing to do with hierarchies, aggression is the hallmark of 'middle-ranking' males, i.e. yearlings, just matured dogs.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> The technique is called flooding, there are many problems with it and it often turns nasty. Sometimes it doesn't, depending on the individual, but it is most certainly not the safest or most humane method. See ya


What a load of absolute and total baloney. I dont think you have the tiniest clue what you are talking about.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Blitz said:


> What a load of absolute and total baloney. I dont think you have the tiniest clue what you are talking about.


Yes, he/she does IMO. Your example with the second horse is classic use of flooding, which is often thought of as a means of desensitizing by exposing the animal to whatever it is it doesn't but in reality mainly sees the animal simply shutting down mentally. Not a good state to be in. CM uses this a lot. There's an account in his first book about a Great Dane IIRC who was scared of the slippery floor in his home, so CM just ran him on terrified until he "calmed down" or "shut down" dependent upon your view.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Blitz said:


> What a load of absolute and total baloney. I dont think you have the tiniest clue what you are talking about.


Flooding, which often leads to learned helplessness, was discovered by Sleigman in 1965. Complain to him, not to me.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> Yes, he/she does IMO. Your example with the second horse is classic use of flooding, which is often thought of as a means of desensitizing by exposing the animal to whatever it is it doesn't but in reality mainly sees the animal simply shutting down mentally. Not a good state to be in. CM uses this a lot. There's an account in his first book about a Great Dane IIRC who was scared of the slippery floor in his home, so CM just ran him on terrified until he "calmed down" or "shut down" dependent upon your view.


the second horse is an older horse who has most certainly not been 'flooded' by me. I have no idea what was done to him in the past.
the first pony is very happy and relaxed about being clipped after being treated the way I described. Most certainly not shut down and most certainly not stressed in any way. The last thing I am going to do is stress a lovely kind young pony who is on a steep learning curve.
I am afraid you were neither there and you neither have any idea whatsoever.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Blitz said:


> the second horse is an older horse who has most certainly not been 'flooded' by me. I have no idea what was done to him in the past.
> the first pony is very happy and relaxed about being clipped after being treated the way I described. Most certainly not shut down and most certainly not stressed in any way. The last thing I am going to do is stress a lovely kind young pony who is on a steep learning curve.
> I am afraid you were neither there and you neither have any idea whatsoever.


Pot, kettle and black come to mind.

I certainly wasn't there and by that comment I'm guessing you were? The moment where he has been "flooded" as you put it, is during this point that you mention in an earlier post.



Blitz said:


> Therefore he has to be restrained before the clippers or whatever else comes out.


Being restrained and clipped in this situation is no different to restraining an arachnophobic and pouring spiders over them. That's what flooding is.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

OMG. I finally read this whole topic from start to finish and I am exhausted. Started as a very interesting debate, :thumbup1:, got a little tetchy in the middle, :nono:, strayed off topic a bit, :confused5:, now going in circles and covering old ground. 
But how nice to read a reasonable debate about CM that didn't turn into a bloodbath.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I've used flooding as a technique.

Horse doesn't like being hosed, have him on a long line, trickle the water down his leg and let him run around as much as he likes, but keep the water running on him. I would have said, he realises it's not hurting and stops running. Now I'd say he realises he can't get away however much he runs, so he gives up and would consider it a mild form of flooding. This is what I would expect Pat Parelli or CM to use as a method perhaps. A heavier form of it would be holding him still, not letting him run at all.

I've also used approach and retreat. Again, long line, let him move around as much as he likes. Trickle the water, but not on him, far enough away for it not to bother him, move it even further away before he gets anxious and moves. Rinse and repeat getting nearer each time as he becomes accustomed to it. Less stressful and eventually he learns to stand whilst the water is run on him.

I've then used positive training methods. Have the hose away from him, with him completely loose. If he makes any move to be interested in it, or towards it, mark and treat, gradually treating only when he's made a real effort. Eventually the horse approaches the hose of his own accord, then gradually build up to his approaching the switched on hose, often they'll play with it and drink from it, you can then mark and treat the horse for moving his body/legs towards the running hose. Probably the most effective method there is, as it crosses over onto other 'problem' areas and the horse sees all training and new challenges as fun games he wants to win and is a part of. 

A combination of approach and retreat and positive reinforcement would also work, but not involve the horse quite as much in the decision making.

This should be relevant to dog training too, but with dogs I'm only just learning. 

If any of the trainers want to jump in and correct me on anything, feel free, I'm still learning.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

LinznMilly said:


> I've had 2 phobias & [used]... flooding... to overcome them both. One... was a fear of dogs...
> I overcame that... by _purposefully _ encountering dogs - first those who I knew wouldn't harm me, then later
> those that I was less sure about, sometimes w/family support, sometimes w/o. I was just about... over it when we started visiting kennels for our own dog, but... still nervous whenever
> Max growled or barked.
> ...


it's not *flooding* if YOU chose to approach, look-at, be in the same room with, etcetera; 
that's controlled exposure, *& YOU control how close, how intense the trigger [big spider or tiny?], 
how much U want to interact [touch it, or just stand 20-ft away?...], & when U leave / stop the exposure. *

the dog who is dragged into the vet's office/exam room, picked up & put on the grooming-table, dragged to 
stand beside the 55-gallon city trash-bin, 'walked' along the sidewalk beside an 18-wheeler with a frig-compressor, 
etc, enjoys NONE of that control; they are simply inserted into a situation they are known to find upsetting, 
& told to "deal with it".

careful controlled exposure entails monitoring the dog's visible & audible reactions, to keep the exposure 
low-stress & the dog *under threshold:* aware of the trigger, but not reactive & not distressed.

in combination with that [^_ *desensitization* _^] we classically use *counter-conditioning:* 
associate the presence of the trigger with a known good-thing, something the dog enjoys; an activity, a treat, 
a toy, anything that is an already well-known & well-loved stimulus.

some dogs may need a calmative [or 4 or 5], some dogs may need a psychoactive prescription 
to reduce anxiety; it depends entirely upon how severe the case is, how long the dog has practiced the 
fear / arousal / aggro, age of onset, & other variables.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> ...after the [recent threads] about certain breeds [or same-sex of certain breeds] living together,
> he has loads of pitbulls living together in harmony... he knows his stuff!


they EDIT the shows; we don't see raw-footage, & we only saw a dog-reactive dog being *deliberately wound-up 
by agitation from another dog-aggro dog, belonging to a crew-member, on episode 100.*

most of the dogs who boarded with him in the first 2 seasons were property of various rescues & shelters; 
they *paid him* $15/day per dog to house, feed, & exercise the dogs. _* they did NOT pay him 
to 'fix their problem-behaviors' - *_ only to keep the dogs safe & healthy. When he evicted the dogs, 
in order to go shopping for his new kennel-site, they had the same problem-behaviors as when they'd arrived.

a few dogs were clients' dogs, being boarded while the owner were on vacation, traveled for work, etc.
but the overwhelming majority were dogs who could not be kept in standard shelter-runs: reactive, barky, 
aggro, stressy, etc.

according to his first book, *when i added up the number of hours of exercise the dogs got every day, 
it was 7-hours of aerobic exercise out of every 24-hours - * do U run Ur dog 1/3 of every day? 
that's why he has staff; no one person could give over 50 dogs *7-hours of intense aerobic activity* 
every day.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Right now I am MASSIVELY confused- how is showing a horse clippers everyday to desensitise it- whilst rewarding it for being calm ANY different to what I do with Dex which is when we see another dog and he is not reacting click treat click treat click treat click treat click treat click treat click treat until said dog has gone out of view? 

The technique with the dog seems to be the prefered method on here for dog reactive dogs, so why not clipper reactive horses?


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> A dog that shows aggression is not comfortable; it is not confident- it is scared, frustrated and knows only one behaviour pattern to defuse a situation. In hierarchies, although your old Staffy meeting strange dogs has nothing to do with hierarchies, aggression is the hallmark of 'middle-ranking' males, i.e. yearlings, just matured dogs.


So to cut a long story short, you don't agree? Kidding, ok so if 'Max' acted the way he was because he was 'unconfident' these were his signals. 
He would run directly up to a dog standing stiff as a board, tail up in the air, he would be eyeballing the dog, then either put his head over the dogs back or his paw then fighting broke out. This to me says he was a confident dog that challenged and tried to 'dominate' other dogs.



Rottiefan said:


> Please, stop describing a dog as 'dominant' if you don't even care to take the time to understand what it means.


_Subordinance Hierarchy
When the framework of a successful hierarchy is viewed in a developmental context, it becomes apparent that subordinance hierarchy is a more descriptive term for canine social structure. Maintenance of an existing hierarchy depends on underlings advertising their respect for higher-ranking individuals. The status quo is maintained because, lower-ranking individuals seldom challenge authority and so only occasionally, is there need to enforce higher rank with a display of physical, or more likely psychological, dominance._

To be more dominant is basically the same thing as saying a dog of higher hierarchy, to say its not a used word anymore and that i am ignorant of the words meaning is... well twaddle itself. In a hierachy there is always a leader, and the leader is the most dominant, no it doesn't have to be through aggression, like CM talks about its all about the energy. The amount of times i have read on here about humping and how its a dominance thing is that also wrong?


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## flissandzach (Aug 1, 2011)

dont really get whats so bad about 'flooding' as people call it. zach my newfie was terrified of kids on skateboards and we had to pass a skate park to our walk everyday so i had no choice but to force him passed it even tho it took a long time to walk passed. I don't see it as cruel but necesary as otherwise he wouldn't have got a walk!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> i've seen [CM/DW on camera] use praise training loads of times!


*really?* when & where?

i watched every single episode from #1 of the first season thru August of 2009, when i moved; most of them 
i saw 3 or 4-times, & i took notes on many. I NEVER saw him praise a dog; sometimes the handler or owner, 
but never the dog; he either made no comment, or he was discussing the dog, not talking TO THE DOG - 
but providing a running critique as the dog reacted to _________ .

there was no praise that i saw; & the 2 times i watched him attempt to use food, he blew it - he took the dog 
well over-threshold before offering the tidbits, so that the dog was entirely incapable of eating; then he said 
that 'food didn't work'  for that dog or that situation.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> * ...i keep reminding people... Cesar has NEVER said [that] he is a dog trainer. *


i'd be very happy to refer to him as a dog-HANDLER, not a 'trainer'.  management is for control -Now-. 
training is for control tomorrow, next week, next month... future-control or future on-cue behaviors.

unfortunately, *training*_ is anything intended to alter behavior. 
so whether he [or i!] like it or not, he Acts As If He Were a trainer: attempting to alter 
the dog's behavior. This applies to initial learning, as well as B-mod of established habits. _


JANICE199 said:


> * I do wonder how many of his critics have ever... bothered to watch his show. *


i've watched it with more care & attention than many of his more-rabid fan[atic]s. 
i had to be able to discuss what he did, in what circs, with which dog & re what problem-behavior.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *How many "red zone" cases have you had to deal with?
> Or cases where others have said the dog is beyond help? *


i've posted before about reward-based trainers whose specialty is aggressive dogs.

they get excellent results, they DO NOT use methods or tools which resemble CM/DW as seen on TV 
in any way, & they have many grateful clients - & their dogs, who were once possible-euth candidates, 
now are much happier, & have busier, more-social lives.

what they LACK is a TV-show & a multi-billion-dollar media-machine like Natl-Geo to promote them. 

i've worked with dogs who were highly-aggro with bite histories, but it's not my specialty. 
i probably see maybe or 2 truly 'dangerous' dogs in a given year; plus other less-intense aggro.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> ...a lot of the dogs [CM/DW] goes to see are on the brink of being [euthanized]!


really?...  the RN whose Bichon? Maltese? - little white dog, was AFRAID of scissors round his face, 
was going to *kill her dog*?

the owners of the fearful Viszla who RG'd her toys were going to kill her?... 
the owner of the highly-reactive, snappy Beagle who'd bitten the postie was going to kill him?... 
the owner of NuNu the former street-stray Chi who was afraid of strangers & bit them, was going to kill him?

BULL - pure, undiluted kaka. Vanishingly-few of the cases shown on that TV-program are at real risk of being killed.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Howlet said:


> *A dog is a pack animal.* If this dog disobeyed his pack leader [in] this way, he'd [have had] a good hiding
> to put [him] in his place.


dogs are pack-animals? 

they have a linear hierarchy, maintained by force? 

Lordy, lordy... another one. Here ya are, dearie - some enlightenment. 
"Alpha" Wolf? - YouTube 


Howlet said:


> As far as i can tell that is what [Ceser] did.


As U are a fan, PLEASE learn to spell the man's name? :wink: It's not Anglicized Greek, 
it's Mexican Spanish.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2011)

I made a pie chart!


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

jon bda said:


> I made a pie chart!


Now that this thread has gone down the toilet, thankyou for making me laugh.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

emsky said:


> So to cut a long story short, you don't agree? Kidding, ok so if 'Max' acted the way he was because he was 'unconfident' these were his signals.
> He would run directly up to a dog standing stiff as a board, tail up in the air, he would be eyeballing the dog, then either put his head over the dogs back or his paw then fighting broke out. This to me says he was a confident dog that challenged and tried to 'dominate' other dogs.


No, I wouldn't see this as confidence. I would see this a learned behaviour pattern, and say that your dog was unconfident around other dogs to the point of being socially rude upon meeting- because that's the only way he knew how to interact. Humans struggle to read dog body language at the best of times, and many observations get misconstrued. There is a huge difference between observing a behaviour and interpreting the function of that behaviour. Whilst he may have tried to physically dominate other dogs, this was not to do with the ethological concept of dominance.



> _Subordinance Hierarchy
> When the framework of a successful hierarchy is viewed in a developmental context, it becomes apparent that subordinance hierarchy is a more descriptive term for canine social structure. Maintenance of an existing hierarchy depends on underlings advertising their respect for higher-ranking individuals. The status quo is maintained because, lower-ranking individuals seldom challenge authority and so only occasionally, is there need to enforce higher rank with a display of physical, or more likely psychological, dominance._
> 
> To be more dominant is basically the same thing as saying a dog of higher hierarchy, to say its not a used word anymore and that i am ignorant of the words meaning is... well twaddle itself. In a hierachy there is always a leader, and the leader is the most dominant, no it doesn't have to be through aggression, like CM talks about its all about the energy. The amount of times i have read on here about humping and how its a dominance thing is that also wrong?


I should have included a few things about that link.

1) Dr Ian Dunbar is talking about his research on a family of beagles that he studied for 10 years- he is not implying that strange dogs will immediately see themselves on a hierarchy; he is saying that in a fixed setting, with consistent, family relationships, there is a preformed hierarchy pertaining to age and that rank and status are fixed, i.e. a younger dog will not jostle for position or try to usurp control.

2) Dominance relationships are one thing- the consistent winner of a repetitive hostile interaction- and are not used to describe the type of relationships that dogs possess, but in hierarchical terms (e.g. in a wolf pack, or any other canid family pack) the label 'dominant' just indicates placement, or rank. This is where things get confusing. The breeding pair in the wolf pack are the dominant animals, but do not possess dominance relationships over the others, as the relationships are much more harmonious that this, and aggression is seldom used.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Been reading up on wild dogs, real interesting stuff. The leaders of a pack are breeding pairs, the other dogs show their bellies and necks and lick their faces. The hunting packs greet each other and lick each other, whining and yelping ready to go hunting. The young and sick are fed first and the whole pack care for the young. They're really social animals and not at all aggressive to each other, even living in packs of up to 60 dogs.

Until they are brought into captivity.  Then groups of unrelated animals are forced into close proximity, which they wouldn't be in the wild and they will then fight. Not sure it's exactly for dominance, sounds more like the ones who would be breeding pairs fight for the right to breed or to separate their packs. In one study 2 females fought each other for breeding rights. Only one of the bitches were bred each time, one one year and the other the following year. Weird huh.

It seems that CM is treating the dogs as though they are unbalanced packs in captivity, trying to restore balance through domination and the positive trainers are restoring the natural balance of the wild by hunting with the dogs and feeding them. I wonder if the dogs see training as being trained, or if they see it as a way of life and a kind of challenge replacing hunting and the battle for survival. 

If the parents of the pack are the natural leaders and harmony prevails, surely we would want to be in loco parentis, not fighting for our rights.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Elles said:


> Been reading up on wild dogs, real interesting stuff. The leaders of a pack are breeding pairs, the other dogs show their bellies and necks and lick their faces. The hunting packs greet each other and lick each other, whining and yelping ready to go hunting. The young and sick are fed first and the whole pack care for the young. They're really social animals and not at all aggressive to each other, even living in packs of up to 60 dogs.
> 
> Until they are brought into captivity.  Then groups of unrelated animals are forced into close proximity, which they wouldn't be in the wild and they will then fight. Not sure it's exactly for dominance, sounds more like the ones who would be breeding pairs fight for the right to breed or to separate their packs. In one study 2 females fought each other for breeding rights. Only one of the bitches were bred each time, one one year and the other the following year. Weird huh.
> 
> ...


You are perfectly correct. This is the mistake which was made by the original researchers with their pack of unrelated, captive wolves and which has followed us about for decades. the original researcher has stated many times that he was wrong, that wolves live in family units, but nobody wants to know for some bizarre reason.

I have always treated my dogs like my children, they have always been given love, attention and food and comfort when needed and they have all behaved beautifully most of the time.

I think these out of control dogs have gotten that way through not being treated that way, through pack leader dominance rubbish and little or no socialisation.

Whenever I hear that something is a sign of dominance, I could scream. I read in a home study course about dog psychology that if a dog puts both paws on your knees it is a sign of dominance. What utter tosh. My Joshua does that a lot, usually when his legs are hurting and as for his willy sticking out being a sign of a dominant dog, as I said before that really is unbelievable. You couldn't find a gentler, more compliant dog.

These people just parrot what they have heard from some other pratt, they have no evidence for any of it.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> You are perfectly correct. This is the mistake which was made by the original researchers with their pack of unrelated, captive wolves and which has followed us about for decades. the original researcher has stated many times that he was wrong, that wolves live in family units, but nobody wants to know for some bizarre reason.
> 
> I have always treated my dogs like my children, they have always been given love, attention and food and comfort when needed and they have all behaved beautifully most of the time.
> 
> ...


And I would say there is world of difference bringing up puppies that you can "mother" to taking in dogs who do not acknowledge that type of relationship.

Respect is earnt. Not by acting "mum" but by providing leadership to your dog. I.e I am asserting my dominance over my dogs. Never in an aggressive way, but too right I am boss.

I made the mistake of playing "mum" when I got my two street dogs. Back fired. People got bit. Max (Aussie cattle dog x) was a stones throw from being PTS, after attacking my dad.

I began to follow CM and gradually got control and more knowledge around my dogs.

Had I not have discovered CM. Then undoubtedly Max would not be here. I wouldn't have had the confidence to rescue my staffy x. And I may not be volunteering in rescue.

I now have a reasonably balanced pack. Who are certainly not scared of me, but have a healthy respect. This would not have happened had he not have been so successful and famous.

I wonder how many more like me are out there....


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

I've always assumed that dogs KNOW that we are in charge - without us, they wouldn't eat, have a comfy bed, get walked, I don't see why humans have to establish 'dominence' over their dogs after all this.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> You are perfectly correct. This is the mistake which was made by the original researchers with their pack of unrelated, captive wolves and which has followed us about for decades. the original researcher has stated many times that he was wrong, that wolves live in family units, but nobody wants to know for some bizarre reason


Yes, it's David Mech. Here's a short video explaining why he coined the original terms and why it's incorrect now. I love the top comment.

"Alpha" Wolf? - YouTube


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

I always thought the pack leader/dominance stuff sounded a bit daft to be honest. Admittedly not had that many dogs and only had them from puppies but I remember hearing once someone say you should bring your dog up like you would your children & vice versa ie firm/fair/with love. 

I doubt it would have achieved much or made him a better person if I pinned my son to the floor if he did something I didn't like or gave him a kick/jab to get his attention so its not something I have tried. Both my son and my dog have turned out pretty well and neither bite anyone :smilewinkgrin:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> And I would say there is world of difference bringing up puppies that you can "mother" to taking in dogs who do not acknowledge that type of relationship.
> 
> Respect is earnt. Not by acting "mum" but by providing leadership to your dog. I.e I am asserting my dominance over my dogs. Never in an aggressive way, but too right I am boss.
> 
> ...


That is just my point: Out of control dogs have got that way through human cruelty and negligence. I am not saying you can take in an adult, troubled dog and play mother, and yes, he does need leadership, but that is to build his trust, of which he has none.

I admire anyone who has taken in a stray or rescued dog, it must be very hard and I salute you, but if people start off with a young puppy believing he is likely to make a play for dominance and that they have to show him whose boss, then he is likely to turn out to be that unbalanced adult dog.



bearcub said:


> I've always assumed that dogs KNOW that we are in charge - without us, they wouldn't eat, have a comfy bed, get walked, I don't see why humans have to establish 'dominence' over their dogs after all this.


I agree entirely. As Goodvic has said, taking on an unbalanced dog is going to be hard, but harsh methods are never going to build his trust.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> I always thought the pack leader/dominance stuff sounded a bit daft to be honest. Admittedly not had that many dogs and only had them from puppies but I remember hearing once someone say you should bring your dog up like you would your children & vice versa ie firm/fair/with love.
> 
> *I doubt it would have achieved much or made him a better person if I pinned my son to the floor* if he did something I didn't like or gave him a kick/jab to get his attention so its not something I have tried. Both my son and my dog have turned out pretty well and neither bite anyone :smilewinkgrin:


Actually, I did do that to my son once! Well not exactly pin him to the floor, but I was trying to pay for something in a very busy M & S and he kept running off. He was about 3 at the time and didn't talk till he was 5 or 6, so I layed him on the floor in front of the counter and put my foot on him.

While he was under my foot I knew some pervert hadn't got him, as I told the woman who went past tutting!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> That is just my point: Out of control dogs have got that way through human cruelty and negligence. I am not saying you can take in an adult, troubled dog and play mother, and yes, he does need leadership, but that is to build his trust, of which he has none.
> 
> I admire anyone who has taken in a stray or rescued dog, it must be very hard and I salute you, but if people start off with a young puppy believing he is likely to make a play for dominance and that they have to show him whose boss, then he is likely to turn out to be that unbalanced adult dog.
> 
> I agree entirely. As Goodvic has said, taking on an unbalanced dog is going to be hard, but harsh methods are never going to build his trust.


I wasn't fishing for a compliment, but thanks! 

Many people on this thread will only have had dogs since puppies, and you can behave very different. They come to you as babies. A clean slate.

But an adult dog can have a whole host of issues.

Harsh methods are not needed. But LEADERSHIP is. Not mothering. By providing leadership the dog will grow in confidence.

There are also many breeds who are not suited to inexperienced owners. Strong breeds need firm leadership. Because without it, they can be dangerous. I don't believe for a second that everybody is suited to a strong breed. Sometimes the breed has a stronger more dominant personality that the person. Example... a guarding breed like a GSD. With a person who has a weaker personality it could cause the guarding instinct to take over with the GSD. So a confident, stronger person is needed to handle this type of dog.

Being your dogs leader comes from within. Some people can do it, and some can't. My hubby cannot manage our pack like I can. We had a rottie for 6 months. He was a lovely boy. But far more dominant that my hubby. I had no issue, but he would not accept my hubby giving him direction. It wasn't a training issue, as he was the most amazing dog in this respect. But he acknowledged that my hubby has a far weaker personality that him (in this respect). blimey hope he doesn't read this!


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> I wasn't fishing for a compliment, but thanks!
> 
> Many people on this thread will only have had dogs since puppies, and you can behave very different. They come to you as babies. A clean slate.
> 
> ...


Do agree with this - its like school days there would be certain teachers where you could hear a pin drop & no one stepped out of line but others just had no control whatsover. It was nothing to with physical traits of the teacher purely strong personality/leadership


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

bearcub said:


> I've always assumed that dogs KNOW that we are in charge - without us, they wouldn't eat, have a comfy bed, get walked, I don't see why humans have to establish 'dominence' over their dogs after all this.


This is so not true. Just because you GIVE your dogs these things. Sometimes owners give too much and ask for nothing back. Dogs sometimes need to work for things. If everything comes to easy, then they can lose respect.

My friend spoke to me the other day. His mother has a shih tzu. Had the dog since a puppy. Never known a hards days life before. But this dog runs riot round everyone.

It barks for no reason, it decideds when he wants to go for a walk and if it doesn;t want to then it won't. He guards the sofa, and if you try to remove him, he attacks you. He's been to the vets and medically he is fine.

But my friend says that his mother spoils the dog. There's no discipline. Food is left down all day. But yet this dog has everything and is loved to bits by its owner.

An example of a dog with no leadership and possible a more dominant personality than the owner...


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> Do agree with this - its like school days there would be certain teachers where you could hear a pin drop & no one stepped out of line but others just had no control whatsover. It was nothing to with physical traits of the teacher purely strong personality/leadership


That's a good analogy. Not everyone is going to make a good teacher, especially in a problematic High School. But some people just have it. It's the same with dogs.

A weak teacher will have their students running rings around them.

Same with a challenging dog....


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Elles said:


> Been reading up on wild dogs, real interesting stuff. The leaders of a pack are breeding pairs, the other dogs show their bellies and necks and lick their faces. The hunting packs greet each other and lick each other, whining and yelping ready to go hunting. The young and sick are fed first and the whole pack care for the young. They're really social animals and not at all aggressive to each other, even living in packs of up to 60 dogs.


Not sure which canine you were reading up on here. Wolf packs are family units, with breeding pairs and their offspring, and perhaps their yearlings still around too, to help them raise the offspring. The rolling over, belly up display is not often seen, as much as the approaching with heads down, low body carriage, low wagging tail etc. This is deference not submission- submission implies hostility and aggression.

Feral domestic dogs, on the other hand, have also family groups, but are much looser, and will live with other unrelated members too. Breeding rights are 'earned' as such, in these groups, and a dominance relationship can be formed in this sense, but these will not be personality traits of individuals and will change in the future. They do not pair bond and, thus, as polygamous. In addition, they are not cooperative hunters and mostly scavenge and forage singly. This indicates that domestic dogs are not pack animals.



> Until they are brought into captivity.  Then groups of unrelated animals are forced into close proximity, which they wouldn't be in the wild and they will then fight. Not sure it's exactly for dominance, sounds more like the ones who would be breeding pairs fight for the right to breed or to separate their packs. In one study 2 females fought each other for breeding rights. Only one of the bitches were bred each time, one one year and the other the following year. Weird huh.


Yes, and sadly people thought this was natural behaviour. However, it is absolutely abnormal, and put any species in a confined, stressful and small enclosure, and dominance relationships will most likely be formed- in human and non-human animals.



> It seems that CM is treating the dogs as though they are unbalanced packs in captivity, trying to restore balance through domination and the positive trainers are restoring the natural balance of the wild by hunting with the dogs and feeding them. I wonder if the dogs see training as being trained, or if they see it as a way of life and a kind of challenge replacing hunting and the battle for survival.
> 
> If the parents of the pack are the natural leaders and harmony prevails, surely we would want to be in loco parentis, not fighting for our rights.


CM makes the mistake of assuming 1) dogs are pack animals, like wolves, and thus live in a hierarchy and 2) that these wild packs act like the captive packs first researched. Put these two viewpoints together, and apply them to dogs, and you get a mess.

Dogs are not wolves. This is one of the most exciting areas of research in animal behaviour at the moment, as people have realised that dogs possess distinct behaviour patterns not seen in other canids, or even other animals. However, we must continuously be told otherwise.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I have always treated my dogs like my children, they have always been given love, attention and food and comfort when needed and they have all behaved beautifully most of the time.


Do you also pin your dogs to the floor like your son?



newfiesmum said:


> I think these out of control dogs have gotten that way through not being treated that way, through pack leader dominance rubbish and little or no socialisation.


My staffie who was aggresive for whatever reason was treat like one of the family! He never had any heirachy/dominant/aggressive issues with a human just dogs! He was socialised well up until about two then the problem slowly started and got worse, in the end i stopped trying completely as people would judge, make snide and nasty comments and jump to conclusions (alot like some on here).


> That is just my point: Out of control dogs have got that way through human cruelty and negligence.





newfiesmum said:


> These people just parrot what they have heard from some other pratt, they have no evidence for any of it.


As everyone else who has an opinion is also 'parroting' what they have learnt.
What makes your opinion more right than anyone else?

Dominance to me is being the leader/boss and i'm still going to stick by the theory that you need to be the boss especially with certain breeds. Where is my evidence? On every bleeding breed related website that says *'needs firm handling and owner need to stay in charge' *. Though what Rottiefan has posted has certainly given me food for thought about the whole dynamics of dog psychology and hierachy i'm still not discounting CM's more firmer approach. Nor am i discounting other methods as they both appear to work on different cases, different dogs etc.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I wasn't fishing for a compliment, but thanks!
> 
> Many people on this thread will only have had dogs since puppies, and you can behave very different. They come to you as babies. A clean slate.
> 
> ...


I shall make sure that he does!!

I think it is the term "pack leader" which winds people up. Whether you think of yourself as pack leader, leader, or mum, really makes no difference to the way a sensible person will raise their dogs, be they puppies or rescues.

The pack leader theory and idea does not have to include any harsh methods, and this is why I am so against CM.

I have a friend who adores my dogs, but she thinks of them as children. If one drops his bone for instance, she will follow him about saying "you dropped your bone". By the end of her visits, you can tell by the look in their eyes what they are thinking. They would, indeed, run circles around her. She doesn't even grasp how to hold a dog lead and once I had to take Joshua from her for his own sake! But she loves them to bits.



goodvic2 said:


> This is so not true. Just because you GIVE your dogs these things. Sometimes owners give too much and ask for nothing back. Dogs sometimes need to work for things. If everything comes to easy, then they can lose respect.
> 
> My friend spoke to me the other day. His mother has a shih tzu. Had the dog since a puppy. Never known a hards days life before. But this dog runs riot round everyone.
> 
> ...


I agree, not everyone can provide any sort of leadership when it comes to their dogs or their children.

I once knew a family with a cocker spaniel that they were all terrified of. When he was a puppy, if they tried to take something away from him, he growled at them so they let him keep it. Consequently, they could get nothing away from him. All he had to do was growl and the object, sofa, whatever was his to keep. Of course he thought he was in charge!

We went on holiday once and left our retriever for a fortnight with my daughter. This dog knew perfectly well he was not allowed on the furniture (because of the hairs, no other reason) and when we came back there he was on the sofa. I told him to get off and he growled at me! Of course, he got off - I wasn't afraid of him and he knew it.

Although I have treated mine like my children, just like them if I say no that is precisely what I mean and I will not be persuaded otherwise.

It is what you let them get away with, just like children really. So, although you believe in pack leader theory and I do not, I think we are on the same wavelength.:smilewinkgrin:


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> This is so not true. Just because you GIVE your dogs these things. Sometimes owners give too much and ask for nothing back. Dogs sometimes need to work for things. If everything comes to easy, then they can lose respect.
> 
> My friend spoke to me the other day. His mother has a shih tzu. Had the dog since a puppy. Never known a hards days life before. But this dog runs riot round everyone.
> 
> ...


Or a dog that has learnt these behaviours through simple classical and operant conditioning? A dog that has had limited socialisation?

Why must we assume that this dog has a further, hidden agenda on his mind? This implies a theory of mind in dogs- this hasn't been found yet.

I work with many difficult dogs, but never see them as actively 'disrespecting' me. That, to me, is a completely human construction and applying it to dogs is assuming a whole hoard of anthropomorphic attributes of dog cognition that have not been proven- and many of which that have been argued against.

I think as soon as people see dog behaviour as a consequence of learned behaviours, how much socialisation a dog has had and what quality, and a dog's ability to control their stress threshold, things become a lot clearer.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> There are also many breeds who are not suited to inexperienced owners. Strong breeds need firm leadership. Because without it, they can be dangerous. I don't believe for a second that everybody is suited to a strong breed. Sometimes the breed has a stronger more dominant personality that the person. Example... a guarding breed like a GSD. With a person who has a weaker personality it could cause the guarding instinct to take over with the GSD. So a confident, stronger person is needed to handle this type of dog.
> 
> Being your dogs leader comes from within. Some people can do it, and some can't. My hubby cannot manage our pack like I can. We had a rottie for 6 months. He was a lovely boy. But far more dominant that my hubby. I had no issue, but he would not accept my hubby giving him direction. It wasn't a training issue, as he was the most amazing dog in this respect. But he acknowledged that my hubby has a far weaker personality that him (in this respect). blimey hope he doesn't read this!


I can't agree, I'm afraid. Guarding breeds have a greater chance of becoming fearful- they need extra socialisation- but what does this have to do with us? The last person I want controlling a guarding breed is a strong person, who I think will be firm with the dog. I want someone with a brain, who is clued up on rewards based training, understands behaviour and can develop a humane, effective and executable training programme. I don't care if they see their dog as a little baby and dress him/her up in fancy clothes (although I'd never do this myself!), as long as they are compassionate to working with the dog in a sensible and diligent manner.

The whole thing of a dog being able to recognise a weaker personality is unfounded I think, and whenever anyone has said that to me, and I've observed said dog's behaviour around a supposedly weaker person, it is something fundamentally simple that is the problem.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

emsky said:


> Do you also pin your dogs to the floor like your son?
> 
> My staffie who was aggresive for whatever reason was treat like one of the family! He never had any heirachy/dominant/aggressive issues with a human just dogs! He was socialised well up until about two then the problem slowly started and got worse, in the end i stopped trying completely as people would judge, make snide and nasty comments and jump to conclusions (alot like some on here).
> 
> ...


As I said, I didn't pin him to the floor, just kept him where I knew he was safe. If I wanted to keep my dogs where I knew they were safe I would have their leads on.

So you gave up on socialising your staffie because of what other people thought? 18 months to 2 years is the age that most dogs start to rebel a bit and you need to go back to basics with the socialising, not give up.

It is not just my opinion, it is the conclusion of the latest research by top, qualified animal behaviourists, not some tv star who grew up with wild dogs.
It is also a fact from my own experiences with my own dogs and with other people's.

Regarding the advice on breed websites, you can say the same about every breed of dog. They all need a certain firmness, they all need to know who the leader is (read Goodvic's post regarding the dog who always gets his own way) but that leadership and/or firmness does not need to include harsh methods of hanging dogs up by their collars, or forcing them into situations they are obviously afraid of.

One of my dogs was terrified of the car, for some reason I do not know about. At 10 stone then, I couldn't just pick him up and put him in. I could not force him in and neither would I, but I did have a special ramp made which went across the whole back of the car and I did spend lots of time with pieces of chicken and incentives for him to go in.

Now he is quite happy to jump in the car.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> This is so not true. Just because you GIVE your dogs these things. Sometimes owners give too much and ask for nothing back. Dogs sometimes need to work for things. If everything comes to easy, then they can lose respect.
> 
> My friend spoke to me the other day. His mother has a shih tzu. Had the dog since a puppy. Never known a hards days life before. But this dog runs riot round everyone.
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about training etc, I'm saying that being dominant the way Cesar Milan is over a dog isn't necessary, I honestly don't believe dogs try to dominate humans, bad or unwanted behaviour is 'trained' into a dog by an owner who allows them to continue that way.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Isn't the whole issue that leadership and dominance are completely different things and one does not equal the other


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> So you gave up on socialising your staffie because of what other people thought? 18 months to 2 years is the age that most dogs start to rebel a bit and you need to go back to basics with the socialising, not give up.


I did, i tried treat based training methods and many more, it worked for so long then he would just revert again, this went on over a period of six years until yes i gave up hence i am dubious over such methods.



newfiesmum said:


> It is not just my opinion, it is the conclusion of the latest research by top, qualified animal behaviourists, not some tv star who grew up with wild dogs.
> It is also a fact from my own experiences with my own dogs and with other people's.


Like you say, latest. I grew up on the knowledge more along the lines of CM as did a lot of people, on the advice from my dad, trainers and vets which has of course all changed. Somethings i never agreed with, somethings i do.



newfiesmum said:


> Regarding the advice on breed websites, you can say the same about every breed of dog. They all need a certain firmness, they all need to know who the leader is (read Goodvic's post regarding the dog who always gets his own way) but that leadership and/or firmness does not need to include harsh methods of hanging dogs up by their collars, or forcing them into situations they are obviously afraid of.


If a dog was trying to bite me i would have no qualms about restraining it in anyway necessary, whether CM caused the reaction or not its still dangerous behaviour that needed to be restrained. As in the white Husky that ripped his shirt to bits, though the dog clearly turns his attention on CM after he taps it. The dog was already that way, he had bitten both his owners. Cm talks a lot about energys which is basically what keeps being mentioned but in a different way.



newfiesmum said:


> One of my dogs was terrified of the car, for some reason I do not know about. At 10 stone then, I couldn't just pick him up and put him in. I could not force him in and neither would I, but I did have a special ramp made which went across the whole back of the car and I did spend lots of time with pieces of chicken and incentives for him to go in.
> 
> Now he is quite happy to jump in the car.


Thats great but how would you train your dog if he was like that aggresive pitbull?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

*Like you say, latest. I grew up on the knowledge more along the lines of CM as did a lot of people, on the advice from my dad, trainers and vets which has of course all changed. Somethings i never agreed with, somethings i do.*

So did I. I also grew up with every old wives' tale you could possibly name and every superstition ever dreamt up. Doesn't mean I have to follow them when I know better.

My mother believed firmly that you should never feed a dog even a tiny piece of raw meat or he would get a taste for blood and turn on you. You can't imagine what she had to say about babies! Doesn't mean I should follow everything blindly.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Not sure which canine you were reading up on here.


Oh sorry, it was a short rundown and very incomplete of some of what I was reading about wild dogs, both in their natural environment and in captivity, various researches and experiments on wild dogs all over the world. I also read up a bit on wolf behaviour.

Of course what I was reading went into a lot more detail, but I felt it confirmed what people were saying about how we've misunderstood what was actually happening, where people like Cesar and others got their ideas and how open a lot of it is to interpretation. There's a lot of peer reviewed studies published on the Internet, some going far too deeply for me, but it's very interesting stuff, if anyone is interested in animal behaviour and even our own to a degree.

I'd love to be young enough, fit enough and intelligent enough to be involved in this type of thing myself, whether it's horses or dogs. Great stuff that if nothing else is food for thought. 

It's always a good thing I think to question our beliefs and not be stuck in a time-warp doing what we always do because that's what we always did. It's good for the soul.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Rottiefan said:


> Or a dog that has learnt these behaviours through simple classical and operant conditioning? A dog that has had limited socialisation?
> 
> Why must we assume that this dog has a further, hidden agenda on his mind? This implies a theory of mind in dogs- this hasn't been found yet.
> 
> ...


I agree that your points make a difference. Lack of socialisation plays a massive part.

Dogs don't want to take over the world, but they do need rules and boundries....


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Doesn't mean I should follow everything blindly.


Aye, keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out, as they say.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Rottiefan said:


> I can't agree, I'm afraid. Guarding breeds have a greater chance of becoming fearful- they need extra socialisation- but what does this have to do with us? The last person I want controlling a guarding breed is a strong person, who I think will be firm with the dog. I want someone with a brain, who is clued up on rewards based training, understands behaviour and can develop a humane, effective and executable training programme. I don't care if they see their dog as a little baby and dress him/her up in fancy clothes (although I'd never do this myself!), as long as they are compassionate to working with the dog in a sensible and diligent manner.
> 
> The whole thing of a dog being able to recognise a weaker personality is unfounded I think, and whenever anyone has said that to me, and I've observed said dog's behaviour around a supposedly weaker person, it is something fundamentally simple that is the problem.


Then we will have to agree to disagree. 

Being firm is not a bad thing. Why it appears to be baffles me


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> Isn't the whole issue that leadership and dominance are completely different things and one does not equal the other


Depends who you ask.

To me providing leadership makes you the dominant player....

Which is why these debates never agree


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> I shall make sure that he does!!
> 
> I think it is the term "pack leader" which winds people up. Whether you think of yourself as pack leader, leader, or mum, really makes no difference to the way a sensible person will raise their dogs, be they puppies or rescues.
> 
> ...


LOL. I agree (shock horror!)


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I agree that your points make a difference. Lack of socialisation plays a massive part.
> 
> Dogs don't want to take over the world, but they do need rules and boundries....


Precisely what I meant when I said I raise my dogs like I raised my children. They too had rules and boundaries. Dogs like to know where they stand, so do children. Unfortunately some of the children you see today have parents who don't have a clue how to draw the lines and what to do when they are crossed. I think the same can be said of dogs.



Elles said:


> Aye, keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out, as they say.


Are you implying I have soggy brains?!!:crying:



goodvic2 said:


> Then we will have to agree to disagree.
> 
> Being firm is not a bad thing. Why it appears to be baffles me


I don't think anyone is saying that being firm is a bad thing, it is the way that firmness is imposed that we all disagree on. Dogs should not be forced to do anything; they will get there on their own with the right motivation.

I cannot pretend to have ever taken in a rescued dog or even an adult one, but I don't think harsh treatment would ever help the situation.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> Positive means to introduce something and negative means to remove something.
> A punishment is something the dog does not want and a reinforcement is something the dog does want.
> ...


oops  U were doing so well, too. 

REINFORCE is the effect on behavior: it makes the prior behavior more likely.

PUNISH is also the effect on behavior: it makes the prior behavior LESS likely.

a negative reinforcement = remove an AVERSIVE to increase the likelihood of the prior behavior: 
Ex, loosen the prong-collar when the dog stops pulling.

a negative PUNISHMENT removes a desired thing, to decrease the likelihood of the prior behavior. 
Ex, dog jumps up to greet me; i leave the room & close the door - then return, ask for a SIT, 
& greet the dog.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Are you implying I have soggy brains?!!


Lol no. I was saying that you kept an open mind, but not open you'd believe any old twaddle, as should we all. 

I often deal with 'difficult' horses. Although firstly I have to ensure that the animal isn't suffering discomfort, once that's been ruled out and we start to work with the reward based training, the most common comment I read about it is:

'He was like a different horse!'

In actual fact, the horse was exactly the same, it was the person who was like a different person. I rehabilitate people, I train horses. lol.  Horses are easy, it's the people I have trouble with.


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## feathered bird lover (May 23, 2011)

hi, iv'e tried to unsubscribe form this thread but can't seem to get rid of it at all, arghhhhhhhhh. don't know what i'm doing wrong but don't want a subscription to this thread at all. help!!! i have tried the unsubscribe at bottom of thread on my email but it just directs me back to this!!!!!!
any time iv'e unsubscribed other threads it has worked but this thread is flaming haunting me, any advice would be welcome.  :


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

feathered bird lover said:


> hi, iv'e tried to unsubscribe form this thread but can't seem to get rid of it at all, arghhhhhhhhh. don't know what i'm doing wrong but don't want a subscription to this thread at all. help!!! i have tried the unsubscribe at bottom of thread on my email but it just directs me back to this!!!!!!
> any time iv'e unsubscribed other threads it has worked but this thread is flaming haunting me, any advice would be welcome.  :


That's because the computer knows you don't really mean it!

If you go into your Edit profile top left hand corner it gives a list of all the threads you are subscribed to. You can do it from there. You will probably get one or two more updates after that, but if you ignore them they will go away.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> oops  U were doing so well, too.
> 
> REINFORCE is the effect on behavior: it makes the prior behavior more likely.
> 
> ...


I know what I meant, lol!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> this thread is flaming haunting me


:mad5: :yikes: Boo!

Singing:

hehe, sorry, couldn't resist. No idea how you can stop it.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

feathered bird lover said:


> hi, iv'e tried to unsubscribe form this thread but can't seem to get rid of it at all, arghhhhhhhhh. don't know what i'm doing wrong but don't want a subscription to this thread at all. help!!! i have tried the unsubscribe at bottom of thread on my email but it just directs me back to this!!!!!!
> any time iv'e unsubscribed other threads it has worked but this thread is flaming haunting me, any advice would be welcome.  :


That's because Milan has secretly hacked both PF and your email account (using nothing but calm submissive energy) in order to 'rehabilitate' you!!!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

I think CM has his uses!
















He keeps pet forums lively with the endless debates!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

The power of positive reinforcement 

Device enables world's first voluntary gorilla blood pressure reading


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

So basically it is all about the terminology and language used, and how we as humans, interpret that..... as I thought


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *NewfiesMum*
> 
> But you cannot take the place in an animal's life of a member of his own species.
> If you were to kick a horse to tell him off, he'd very quickly kick you back, & you would definitely come off worse.


i've seen this very thing happen in many stables over the years, & can only agree - & i'd warn anyone who works with horses 
to avoid teaching them that *'Might makes right',* as the horse always has more sheer 'might' that the puny human. 
if sheer strength & aggro were the deciding factor, we'd all be in trouble; yet i know horses who work with 
& for disabled riders, & they are obviously happy, willing partners, not downtrodden, forced, or abused 
in any way; they *enjoy!* their work, & do it gladly.



emsky said:


> Wrong! We were told in college that this is what we should do, also if a horse bit you
> to punch it on the nose! I've seen people do this, including the trainers, & the horses quickly submitted
> & never fought back (human behaviour again, animals don't seek revenge!) It comes down to a battle of wills
> and who is the strongest.


good luck with that. :thumbdown:

i can only hope with deep sincerity that U are reborn as a horse, to be punched & kicked as U've done 
to these animals - & i wish U a long and very miserable equine life of 30 or 40 years of kicks & punches.

perhaps by then, U may reconsider that method of 'teaching', which IMO only teaches depression, 
helplessness, & a deep lack of trust.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *NewfiesMum*
> 
> You train a horse with polos and pony nuts, not punches on the nose.





Lexiedhb said:


> Um no really you don't- food is very rarely used to train a horse to do anything,
> they are grazers, so just not as food[-oriented] as dogs... it simply would not work...


hmmm - here's my UK-buddy teaching her donkey, Bertie, to fetch formally as a utility exercise. 
Donkey Formal Retrieve - YouTube

how do U think she taught him? :huh: *with a stick?... No! - * 
with treats & a clicker, just like a dog. :001_smile:


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i can only hope with deep sincerity that U are reborn as a horse, to be punched & kicked as U've done
> to these animals - & i wish U a long and very miserable equine life of 30 or 40 years of kicks & punches.
> 
> perhaps by then, U may reconsider that method of 'teaching', which IMO only teaches depression,
> helplessness, & a deep lack of trust.


*facepalm* Seriously did you even read that properly? Where the hell does it say I DO THIS? I seriously hope you are born as a donkey where no one understands what you are saying!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *Elles *
> 
> I use food rewards when training horses, even the Spanish Riding School have special pockets made for sugar
> for their horses. Treats can be just as powerful when training horses as they are when training dogs.
> ...





Lexiedhb said:


> Difficult to administer whilst on board tho.


a UTube search for _*'clicker horse under saddle'*_ - 
clicker horse under saddle - YouTube

there are 4 pages; here's page-1 titles: 
Zandy the Zorse: Under Saddle Clicker Training, Self-Bridling HD
Zandy is a hybrid cross between a Thoroughbred horse mare and Zebra stallion. You can see her beautiful stripes and her long ears. Her owner Tori ...
by EquineRevelation | 3 months ago | 747 views |
HD

2:14
Clicker training a young horse under saddle
India is 4, this video is of the second time she's been ridden without help from someone on the ground. home for more info
by NaturalHorseCompany | 11 months ago | 166 views |
HD

2:46
30 days under saddle--Clicker Training Western Jog
This is a 30 day under saddle video I made of my 2 year old filly, Claire. She is out of Hot Scotch Man and Zippo Pine Bar, MC Zippo Ratchett. She ...
by jennbk | 3 years ago | 1,241 views |

9:44
Using Clicker Training to Build Confidence Under Saddle.wmv
In this video Kim coaches Heather in using Clicker Training to build confidence in her horse, Blackjack. Blackjack is a very unconfident horse ...
by Ksturg8929 | 2 years ago | 1,114 views |

9:42
Zandy the Zorse: Clicker Training Groundwork and Under Saddle
Zandy is a hybrid cross between a Thoroughbred horse mare and Zebra stallion. You can see her beautiful stripes and her long ears. Her owner Tori ...
by EquineRevelation | 3 months ago | 305 views |
HD

3:09
Clicker Training a Horse to Ground Drive/Longrein/Longline
Here Les and his assistant, Neil, are teaching a 5-year-old rescued Haflinger how to ground drive. Ground driving is a great way to prepare a ...
by welcometopemberley | 3 years ago | 14,448 views |

5:44
Clicker Training Head Down Under Saddle
In this video Kim transfers what she has taught Shoki on-line (trotting with his head down) to their under saddle work. You can see Shoki ...
by Ksturg8929 | 4 years ago | 4,209 views |

2:22
Practising with the Horse Soccer Ball Under Saddle (4th session)
I'm using clicker training methods to mark and reinforce calm behaviour whenever the ball is approaching the fence and looks like it will rebound ...
by cabinfever04 | 7 months ago | 169 views |

3:59
Clicker Training Communication with Rein Aids
In this video we look at the process of using clicker training to teach a young horse to respond to rein aids by basic flexions. Rain aids are the ...
by CIEStudies | 2 years ago | 3,912 views |

1:51
Benefits of clicker training for ear shy horse - sore ears
First year had him didn't realize he was sensitive to bugs. His ears got irritated from bug bites and he rubbed himself raw in his ear on a tree ...
by MegF142857 | 2 years ago | 615 views |

3:56
Horse Soccer Practice (under saddle, 5th session)
A sunny winter day and we are doing some drills with my helpers... we are advancing on a ball that is already in motion. I'm still encouraging ...
by cabinfever04 | 6 months ago | 65 views |

7:41
Clicking with our Rescue Horses
Check out what our clicker trained horses have learned in only 2 months! These are some short clips of our horses rescued from a meat auction ...
by theanimalteacher | 2 years ago | 1,285 views |

0:55
Passage & Piaffe at Liberty - Horse Training
movements under saddle. For more information about Clicker Training, Horse Training, Natural Horsemanship or Liberty Horse Training see: ...
by horsetraining | 3 years ago | 83,829 views | 96% like

3:32
Horse Soccer Practice (under saddle, 6th session)
This time we are working to free the ball from the fence whenever it gets stuck there (which happens often). I use clicker training in groundwork ...
by cabinfever04 | 4 months ago | 43 views |

1:06
Horse Side Pass, Training In Hand
Young horse practices sidepass from the ground. Teaching movements in hand helps the horse to learn the same maneuver when under saddle. Such an ...
by horsepaintings | 1 year ago | 3,349 views |

1:45
How to Teach Your Horse the Spanish Walk - Kali & Ilo
The PonyPros give you ideas for teaching your horse the Spanish Walk. Kali plays with Ilo, a BLM Mustang. Ilo is a 6 year old BLM Mustang from ...
by ThePonyPros | 1 year ago | 9,572 views |

0:59
WWYLM game under saddle, week one
Here is Dragon's first week practicing the WWLYM game under saddle. It is an exercise that helps the horse tune in to the rider's core and ...
by jendigate | 1 year ago | 136 views |

1:46
Clicker Training - Adding Forward Movement to the Flexions
Start building the 3D's - Distance, Duration, Distraction - with the flexions. Clicker train for each of the challenges and develop cues that work ...
by CIEStudies | 2 years ago | 542 views |

5:48
Trotting and Cantering In Hand Over Jumps, Horse's 4th Ride
Buster is a 3.5 year old Arab Cross. In this video, he is trotting and cantering over jumps. The way we taught him to trot in hand was we started ...
by welcometopemberley | 3 years ago | 27,254 views |

2:40
Clicker Trained Ponies Playing on a Trail Bridge Obstacle
A fun day at the ranch playing with two of our ponies, Tex and Cricket, as well as Ella, a yearling donkey. Both ponies were started under saddle ...
by cheerioTrainer | 3 weeks ago | 35 views |
HD

Natural Horse Company
Clicker training a young horse under saddle
by NaturalHorseCompany | 22 videos | 39 subscribers
CHANNEL

Ksturg8929
Using Clicker Training to Build Confidence Under Saddle.wmv
by Ksturg8929 | 50 videos | 457 subscribers
CHANNEL

Horse Soccer
Practising with the Horse Soccer Ball Under Saddle (4th session)
Horse Soccer Practice (under saddle, 6th session)
Horse Soccer Practice (under saddle, 5th session)
by cabinfever04 | 25 videos
PLAYLIST

clicker
Clicker Training Horses on the Trail
Clicker Training Horses on the Trail
Clicker Training Horses on the Trail
by MegF142857 | 144 videos 
___________________________________

there are more 'related clips' in the right margin, if U open one of the listed videos.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Is this a record? We have got to 61 pages in a thread about CM and it hasn't been closed yet! However, the member who started it all seems to have disappeared.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Yea and not one apology for slander!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> ...IMO [tricks are] cute but unnecessary LOL; for all the general stuff- halter training, backing, etc etc treats are rarely used


the GENERAL stuff in horses is the 'real' training, eh?  as opposed to 'silly tricks', of course.

would '*real*' training include load into a trailer, let their legs be wrapped for shipping, lower their heads 
to take the bit of an offered bridle, COMING WHEN CALLED in the pasture, stand calmly to be groomed, lift each hoof 
& stand 3-legged for cleaning & trimming or to be shod, etc?

_in that case - _ every one of those behaviors can be quickly & easily taught with a marker 
& rewards; Ur choice of marker, Ur choice of rewards, too. :wink:

however: 
bear in mind that to the horse, IT IS ALL 'tricks' - the horse does not see loading as more serious 
than shoeing, or being bridled as more serious than wearing a caparison & leather armor for a parade. 
a bridle to the horse is just as much a costume as a daisy-necklace or a knee-long satin drape, 
fluttering across their back & down their sides; IT'S ALL TRICKS - we humans draw lines that make 
this thing _'serious'_ & that one _'silly'._


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

emsky said:


> How would you control a stallion that is controlled by its hormones and wouldn't
> give a damn what treat you were offering him or what he had been taught?


Sophia Yin, DVM, working with a stud - there's an estrous mare to the left, in another paddock.

Stallion Training | drsophiayin.com - YouTube


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

terencesmum said:


> I [wondered] about calming signals. Is there any way a human could give... calming signals, say when a pup
> gets over-excited during play?


if YOU are the one playing with the over-aroused up, yes - of course! :smile5: 
however, if the pup is playing with another dog or dogs, the pup will be watching her/him or them 
for feedback, not U - so calming signals from off-sides may not be very effective.


terencesmum said:


> ...if your dog is [gives] calming signals [after] you told him off maybe a bit sterner than necessary,
> are there... doggy-apology signals?
> Searched the dog behaviour threads but couldn't find any. Or would a dog give a calming signal?


there aren't any 'sorry' signals, but there are appeasement signals, which serve a similar purpose: 
when one dog is angry with another, or acts cranky & un-nerves another dog, the anxious dog will appease - 
these are the signals that humans commonly refer to when they claim that a dog is _*'feeling guilty'.*_


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Sophia Yin, DVM, working with a stud - there's an estrous mare to the left, in another paddock.
> 
> Stallion Training | drsophiayin.com - YouTube


Yes an already trained stallion.... I'm talking about one that hasn't been trained in such a way as many haven't. Was going to look for some vids in response but i could see obvious mistakes in them all, i really wish i had recorded my friends Minitures before they were gelded.
Anyway i take back when i said horses don't seek revenge after watching this;


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Is this a record? We have got to 61 pages in a thread about CM and it hasn't been closed yet! .


Maybe because we are all used to fairytales newfiesmum


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

emsky said:


> Yes an already trained stallion... I'm talking about one that hasn't been trained
> in such a way as many haven't.


excuse me? Correction:

that was not an ALREADY-TRAINED stallion; he was a horse with problem behaviors.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> excuse me? Correction:
> 
> that was not an ALREADY-TRAINED stallion; he was a horse with problem behaviors.


He didn't look like he had behaviour problems to me.... looked pretty well behaved.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

emsky said:


> [that stallion] didn't look like he had behaviour problems to me... looked pretty well behaved.


fine; here's one who has to be sedated for the farrier to trim him. 
Stallion's Bad for the Farrier | drsophiayin.com - YouTube


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> fine; here's one who has to be sedated for the farrier to trim him.
> Stallion's Bad for the Farrier | drsophiayin.com - YouTube


I don't understand what point you are making? Was this horse rehabilitated through the power of love?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Erm ! excuse me! but is Ceasar Millam working with horses now then?


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Have just put the kettle on, who want's tea? Got no biscuits though so don't ask.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> I don't understand what point you are making? Was this horse rehabilitated through the power of love?


The power of operant and classical conditioning, aka reward based training methods and in this case also aka clicker training. Have a look at some of the links.  Applies to dogs too.



> Erm ! excuse me! but is Ceasar Millam working with horses now then?


I linked a tv programme where Cesar worked with horses and dogs and Pat Parelli who, just as Cesar is a dog whisperer, is apparently now a horse whisperer.

Though I'd beg to differ. If you wanted to talk horse whisperer and we don't, you'd be talking Buck Brannaman whose methods were part of The Horse Whisperer film, though Monty Roberts, another self styled whisperer who is 'the man who talks to horses' according to his book, likes to say it's him.

You still wouldn't have got to those considered actual Horse Whisperers though, they would have been the Dorrances, in particular Tom, or Ray Hunt.

I promise no more posts about horses from me though. I came here to learn about and discuss dogs myself, but being heavily involved with horses I've found it hard to resist.  Apologies.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Elles said:


> The power of operant and classical conditioning, aka reward based training methods and in this case also aka clicker training. Have a look at some of the links.  Applies to dogs too.


I feel dizzy, this is going round in circles so much


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

I did not realize the amount controversy existed over his show until reading online. Just the fact that there is so much controversy over a dog trainer probably means there is something wrong with his methods. I used to watch Ceasar Milan's show years ago. I personally think of his show as more for entertainment than anything else. The problem is some people may take his show literally.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Then we will have to agree to disagree.
> 
> Being firm is not a bad thing. Why it appears to be baffles me


It depends what you mean by firm, I suppose. What irks me is when people believe the only way to bring up a certain breed is to be firm with it. I truly don't understand the reasoning behind this- each dog is an individual.

If you mean by firm that someone needs to use low tones of voice, confrontational body language (e.g. standing in front, commanding), then no, I don't agree.

If my firm you mean someone needs to be consistent with the rules, e.g. don't allow the reinforcement of bad behaviour, but which does not include any positive punishments, then yes. But I would call this diligent and focused.

It is all about semantics at the end of the day. However, when we talk about dominance as a concept, I think we should all be aware that this is an ethological concept, and to use it without being aware or taking the time to understand its meaning in regards to animal behaviour, is a closed viewpoint and limits discussion.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Have just put the kettle on, who want's tea? Got no biscuits though so don't ask.


It's gone cold now, really don't know why I bother sometimes.

You may not have guessed but I have really lost interest in the whole CM thing, this thread stopped talking about him 40 pages ago and somehow got into an argument about punching horses. That in itself just about sums it up for me.

I think the only solution left is to get together 100 CM fans and 100 +R fans and put them in a field. The CM people will then force the +R people to the ground and hold them there until the +R people give the CM guys a piece of chocolate. If the CM crew then push them back down, they will take the chocolate away and only return it when they let them up again. I wonder how many people would be standing in that field and how many would be being held on the ground.

I am guessing there would be 200 standing, all with big chocolaty grins on their faces. If I ever do meet Mr Milan, I am going to give him a piece of chocolate.

I apologise, I have not slept in some time.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> the GENERAL stuff in horses is the 'real' training, eh?  as opposed to 'silly tricks', of course.
> 
> would '*real*' training include load into a trailer, let their legs be wrapped for shipping, lower their heads
> to take the bit of an offered bridle, COMING WHEN CALLED in the pasture, stand calmly to be groomed, lift each hoof
> ...


These are things that NEED to be done for the welfare of the horse- teaching a donkey to fetch is still unessential IMO, and I will never understand feeding a horse whilst on horseback as a reward....... when a pat/good boy a) works just as well and b) does not require the horse to stop dead and turn its head.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> These are things that NEED to be done for the welfare of the horse...


yes, & *husbandry* & *medical care* are precisely why marker-training is most extensively used: 
for captive wildlife & for animals with chronic illnesses or serious risks, marker-training is indispensable.

testing a diabetic chimp for blood-glucose & getting their co-operation for an insulin injection is just one case; 
blood-samples from the only surface vein in a dolphin involves *putting them upside down, with their 
only breathing orifice, their blowhole, under water.* this involves extreme trust & must be done willingly; 
they cannot force a struggling dolphin onto her/his back, as struggles demand more O2 & they'd inhale water 
& choke, develop inhalation-pneumonia, or drown.

willing co-operation is far-less stressful for ANY SPECIES - it avoids dangerous sedation & anaesthesia, 
it's easier & safer for both humans and nonhumans, there's no antidote needed & no recovery period. 
when the task is done, the event is simply over - & everyone walks, flies, crawls, or swims away. 
much simpler all around.

BUT NON-HUMANS DON'T UNDERSTAND that husbandry [claw-trims, teeth care, injections, etc] 
IS NECESSARY - nor do they understand that medical care, which can be painful & frightening, 
is also necessary; they will fight restraint & often injure themselves, their caregivers, or vet-staff. 
they will make their illness or injury worse, & recovery longer - or impossible.

willing co-operation means nobody gets hurt, & needed care is given safely - for the human & the nonhuman. 


Lexiedhb said:


> I will never understand feeding a horse whilst on horseback as a reward... when a pat/good boy
> a) works just as well & b) does not require the horse to stop dead & turn [her/his] head.


sheesh. 
*A*) the thing that marker-training provides THAT NOTHING ELSE CAN is extreme accuracy.

& *B*) a food-reward is only used during early training; other rewards easily & quickly replace it, 
plus once a behavior has a *strong history of reward*, the BEHAVIOR becomes rewarding in itself.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)




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