# Persuading a breeder to give up his show quality kitten



## dan138zig (Mar 20, 2010)

Hi everyone, I hope you're all doing good. So I'm planning to adopt a white male maine coon cat and there are 2 kittens available at this breeder. I'm particular to one of them and apparently the breeder agrees that he's the best. However, since the kitten is (so-called) show quality, the breeder only want to sell him to someone who'll show him. Well, I don't think I have the time and energy for it and I want my cat neutered (this CFA championship doesn't allow fixed cats). So, maybe some of you have advice to persuade the breeder? I know there is another kitten to choose from, but I'm set on this guy because the other one is not of the same quality (hence the breeder is willing to let go of him without the term above). Yes, I won't show, but I want to enjoy staring at him every day, right?  Trust me, their differences are noticeable. Thank you in advance.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I would wait until the next litter - I wouldn't give up a show quality cat that easily either. 

There isn't much you can do, if you badger lots you will end up been turned away from the breeder full-stop. Just let it be known that you will either wait for another white one to be born or take that one IF no-one else comes to take it (though breeders can hang onto show quality for quite a while).


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Neuters can be shown in CFA, many breeders show entires and neuters.

The breeder can choose any home they want, there's no persuading to be done.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The kitten belongs to the breeder unless and until they choose to let it go. If they have a choice of buyers they'll choose the one they want for whatever reasons they have. I don't think there's much you can do or say. Push too hard and it's likely the breeder will not want to let you have any kitten. It is how I'd react if pushed.


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## dan138zig (Mar 20, 2010)

spotty cats said:


> Neuters can be shown in CFA, many breeders show entires and neuters.
> 
> The breeder can choose any home they want, there's no persuading to be done.


yes, but only in a special section called Premiership. The breeder want him to be shown in the primary section which I forget the name of.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

dan138zig said:


> yes, but only in a special section called Premiership. The breeder want him to be shown in the primary section which I forget the name of.


Then you are jiggered, mate - you and the breeder want very different things. Give it up. Wait for the next litter, but this boy ain't for you.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I think you need to start looking for another breeder. Once you've made it clear you've set your heart on this one kitten then by definition anything else is second best. No kitten of mine would be going where it was considered so.


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## dan138zig (Mar 20, 2010)

OK guys, I guess this is a lost cause. But FYI they're only 5 weeks old (so correction: they're not "available" but "with option to buy"). The breeder suggests I wait until they're 3 months old, just in case the other one turns out to be beautiful too. Well, why not, And his price is only half of the other one's, so I'll also take this into consideration


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

At this age they only have show potential - a lot can go wrong between now and being old enough to leave home.

However should the other one turn out to have show potential as well you might find the price going up.


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## dan138zig (Mar 20, 2010)

well yes, the price would go up, but at least there'd be a chance for him to let go one of them without any terms.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

Sorry for my ignorance, but does it mean the breeder wants this boy to work as stud? If he is not to be fixed? Or is he only to be shown for a while and then fixed?


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## dan138zig (Mar 20, 2010)

From what I gathered, he only requires the boy to be shown in the primary "section" of CFA show. Then after the cat gets a champion title or something the owner can have him fixed but that's optional, depends on if the breeder gives breeding right or not.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Ultimately all you can do is make your wishes known and then hope. As a breeder I place my kittens in the home I think is right for them and nothing will change my mind. I make no promises - Spid waited weeks before I confirmed Bomber could come home with her,


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## muffin789 (Jan 28, 2013)

Have to say that, as a hypothetical breeder, if someone was pushing so hard for me to let them have one particular kitten, it would make me very wary and I would probably not let them have one from any litter.

To me there is something "not quite right" about someone saying they want a kitten as a pet but being insistent I let them have a kitten I may not even want to sell.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

Soupie said:


> Ultimately all you can do is make your wishes known and then hope. As a breeder I place my kittens in the home I think is right for them and nothing will change my mind. I make no promises - Spid waited weeks before I confirmed Bomber could come home with her,


Oh yes, I started waiting for my breeding girl when her mum just got pregnant and the breeder only promised her to me a week before I finally got her! They (us) love playing hard to get! Only joking.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Kittens are like children to a breeder. They will not sell unless they are utterly convinced you are the right slave for this particular kitten and this kitten is right for you. However convinced you are you want thiis cat, you cannot have it unless the breeder wants you to. 
It isn't like buying a car or a house, you are a potential suitor needing mommy and daddy's blessing to be allowed to date their baby.
Though I have known people to refuse selling their house to people they didn't like, even though they bid beyond its actual value....

A breeder has to get a good feeling from the match to even consider it. The demands may simply have been a test to see how you would react, and pushing them will not get you into their good books. 
In order to adopt a kitten, you will need to win over the cat as well as the breeder. And I think that you may well have blown it with this one. I would never sell a cat to someone who behaves like a spoilt child. 'But you must sell it to me because I WANT it' is about the worst reason you can give a protective 'parent'.

It might be different if you had a click with this one cat merely for his personality. But you simply appear to want him for his looks, which may not be considered a good enough reason to part with a possible champion. A person who will want to show him may be considered a possible prospective breeder they can coach and collaborate with.


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

dan138zig said:


> And his price is only half of the other one's, so I'll also take this into consideration


A question for the breeders - is this a common thing to do? And would a show quality cat be around double the price of non show?


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Don't shoot me but I feel it's somewhat rude to me when the breeder has specifically said the terms if he/she were to give up her boy and you are almost wanting to demand to have him. We can't always have what we want I'm afraid.

Find another kitten. All, I am sure, will be wonderful and there will be more.  

Respect what the breeder wants. After all, it's her/his baby and her/his decisions. 

Good luck in finding a kitten. I really do wish you the best.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

LouiseH said:


> A question for the breeders - is this a common thing to do? And would a show quality cat be around double the price of non show?


Over here entire breeding/show cats are 2-3 times the pet price.

Show neuters are the same as pet price.

ETA breeders I know in the US charge more for breeding/show cats, show neuters vary from pet price to slightly higher.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

LouiseH said:


> A question for the breeders - is this a common thing to do? And would a show quality cat be around double the price of non show?


It varies from breeder to breeder whether they make a distinction (and if so how much) between the cost of their kittens that go as pets and those that are show/breed quality kittens. Some (including myself) don't charge any extra for show/breed kittens.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

dan138zig said:


> From what I gathered, he only requires the boy to be shown in the primary "section" of CFA show. Then after the cat gets a champion title or something the owner can have him fixed but that's optional, depends on if the breeder gives breeding right or not.


Sounds to me like the breeder is looking for a lover of the breed as a whole and a prospective breeder who, if the kitten lives up to his promise, will use his quality for the continuation of his bloodline. If so, the breeder will be looking for someone who has a click with both cat and breeder and will have the right background and attitude to become a *good* breeder.

If so, selling this kitten to a person who intends to keep this probable future champion hidden away, for his own personal enjoyment only, will be out of the question. They will be looking for an responsible, experienced breeder or a novice with the right attitude to be coached into responsible and ethical breeding, or who will agree to let him serve as a stud to one.

Another consideration may be going through their mind, too.....
If you have little or no experience with the breed and don't intend to get involved to the extent of wanting to further the breed, but are still set on having this cat primarily because of his show quality, what will happen if his personality does not agree with you, if he turns out to be quite a handful.... 
Would he still be the light in your life, the star your world revolves around?

You do not come across as a highly experienced pure-bred owner, and in some breeds, a champion from a highly valued bloodline may be like a thoroughbred race horse or a Lamborghini sports car..... no match for a novice. Your infatuation with looks, rather than personality, comes across as rather superficial, even obsessive, and may be a genuine reason for them to worry. What they will be looking for is a slave with the right personality and attitude to match the _personality_ of the cat, as well as one who will do justice to his show quality.

Maybe you could be that person, but even if you are, they would want to recognize that in you. And if you approached them in a similar manner as you told your story here, that is not what you have been showing them. The way you formulated your question here on the forum, it comes across as a child wanting a particular toy and throwing a tantrum at being denied. 
I know this is just an impression from typed text,which can be very misleading, and you may not be like that at all, but the only thing they can go on is how you come across, and on that basis they will make their decision......

They cannot see into the depth of your heat and soul. And it might be wise to do some soul searching, yourself, and discover your deepest motivation for wanting that particular cat, and if that would be what is truly best for the cat. For in the end, it isn't about what a cat slave wants _*at all*_, the one crucial, most important thing is _*which home and which slave is best for the cat*_.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> It varies from breeder to breeder whether they make a distinction (and if so how much) between the cost of their kittens that go as pets and those that are show/breed quality kittens. Some (including myself) don't charge any extra for show/breed kittens.


It is the same in The Netherlands. It is somewhat frown upon to charge more for a breeding/show kitten but 'rights' are given very carefully.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> It is the same in The Netherlands. It is somewhat frown upon to charge more for a breeding/show kitten but 'rights' are given very carefully.


That sums up how I feel about it though I accept it is a personal decision of each breeder. All my kittens are of course priceless in my eyes  I'd actually be a bit wary of someone who thought throwing more money at me would make me let one go for breeding.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I think it might be breed specific to some extent also. I was absolutely amazed, following a lengthy conversation amongst breeders (of many different breeds) re stud fees on a social networking site. The generally accepted average stud fee from breed to breed varied enormously and whilst I know you'd expect a high stud fee for, say, a fairly recently imported breed, what surprised me was how incredibly low stud fees were in one or two other breeds.. and in yet other breeds, breeders were expressing great surprise at the fact that a stud fee nowhere *near* equates the average cost of a pet kitten within my own breed.

What came across (or so I believe) is a kind of 'group mentality' where breeders tend to follow the trend. I'm sure this is the same as far as the cost of show/breed -v- pet kitten goes... and just the cost of a kitten in general.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> What came across (or so I believe) is a kind of 'group mentality' where breeders tend to follow the trend.


That's true about all aspects of breeding, novice breeders will automatically do whatever they've seen their mentor do. It takes a lot of guts to buck a trend if you aren't established even if you don't agree with it.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Well I don't know nuffink about breeding, all I know is I have never actually chosen a cat or kitten, I have welcomed the last kitten left of my friend's moggy's litter (including the one whose birth I witnessed) and the ones who just walked in off the street and chose me. I have had and still have the most wonderful, loving, charismatic, mischievous, stroppy, individual kitty companions. 

The fact I have a Ragdoll is down to him being up for indoor rehome when that's what I could offer. His long thick fur is an inconvenience and his stunning blue eyes are how he sees the world. He cares not a jot for his papers and neither do I. I love him for his devoted, soppy, playful and gentlemanly character. I love him for telling me he needed grass, begging me to get him a friend, refusing point blank to eat the raw he'd been on for 6 years. 

To me, Molly is much prettier, but she gets overlooked. Ok partly because she is hiding under the bed, but that's beside the point - she is common, she has green eyes and irregular markings. Nobody notices the five white stripes along her neck so fine that the camera won't pick them up. She's lucky if anyone sees her stunning eye make up, she must be up at 5 every morning to get it that perfect with paws! Nobody notices that I've walked past her with a bag of shopping and she didn't bolt, or that she now takes treats from my hand. Nobody sees how she looks at me across the room asking me to come over and give her affection. Those are the priceless cherished moments of sharing your life with a cat. Her love means the world to me, because she struggles to trust and to give love, because unlike Bobby she hasn't always been loved. 

All this to say, if you're not going to do anything with your cat's looks, what the heck does it matter? It's a living breathing sentient animal, not an effing ornament.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

ForeverHome said:


> All this to say, if you're not going to do anything with your cat's looks, what the heck does it matter? It's a living breathing sentient animal, not an effing ornament.


Probably the same reason as when some men want to marry or go out with a really beautiful woman. They often do not even care what type of person she is. Just a Trophy.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> All this to say, if you're not going to do anything with your cat's looks, what the heck does it matter? It's a living breathing sentient animal, not an effing ornament.


I really don't think there's anything wrong with people being attracted to certain breeds or coat colours and temperaments.

Even moggy owners have favourite colours and patterns but don't get accused of treating cats like ornaments.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

spotty cats said:


> I really don't think there's anything wrong with people being attracted to certain breeds or coat colours and temperaments.
> 
> Even moggy owners have favourite colours and patterns but don't get accused of treating cats like ornaments.


Absolutely, we all have preferences. A buyer could be attracted to one kitten in the litter for its beauty or for its personality. I've always wanted a ginger and it's never worked out that way. I have a soft spot for torties. We're all human. But when told sorry you can't have that kitten, but you can have this kitten, and don't want it because its looks are not good enough, does that not seem just a tiny bit ott to you?

Come to think of it as a small child I chose a tabby out of 5 but I got the little black girl with a white spot under her chin because I was a family friend and got last pick. Clowny was just gorgeous and I loved her, and I never once (5 years old) griped about it.



> I'm set on this guy because the other one is not of the same quality ... Yes, I won't show, but *I want to enjoy staring at him every day*, right?


Sorry but that sounds like an ornament to me.


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## korrok (Sep 4, 2013)

ForeverHome said:


> Sorry but that sounds like an ornament to me.


I've enjoyed staring at every cat I've ever owned every day.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

korrok said:


> I've enjoyed staring at every cat I've ever owned every day.


But that's the difference....
the other cat wasn't 'good enough' because he was 'less beautiful'......
Not a single word about personality, just wanting the prettiest show piece. That does sound like desiring an ornament to me.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Isn't it just possible this person has bonded to the one kitten and that's why he is drawn to him? Haven't any of you felt an instant bond with a cat or kitten? I have. More than once. And it would have haunted me every day of my life, if I hadn't been able to rescue that baby (twice) or adult cat (twice) after that instant bond.

In one of those instances I risked losing my job, because that kitten was meant to be with me and no one but me. There were other kittens in the same situation. But it was only one that I bonded with, that I felt desperate to rescue.

I find it very strange that a breeder would refuse to sell a kitten to someone who in all other aspects would be an excellent home, simply because the potential buyer doesn't want to show the kitten. Why does that make any difference?

Granted, we don't know if the OP is presenting the ideal home or not. But let's just say for the sake of argument, everything about his person and home is perfect, except that the OP wants a pet, not a show or stud cat. It is beyond me why that matters.

If this is just an excuse, because there is something not right about the potential buyer, seems like the breeder should be honest about it, instead of making up excuses.

So, I want to know, serious question please, why does it matter so much that the potential owner doesn't want to show or breed this kitten. I would think that would be preferred? I don't understand.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

I agree but then the OP only seemed to show his love of the look of the cat, not the personality in question. I know eff all on breeding, have no clue on how it's done but I'd be quite suspicious to be honest.

And who actually said the OP can give a wonderful home? We can only go by what we are told on here. We don't know this person but the breeder in question obviously does and has met the OP. Perhaps there was something the breeder didn't like and said why but the OP isn't sharing that part of the information and just wants tips to persuade this breeder otherwise.

Am sure some of you breeders on here get a funny feeling on people sometimes and your gut instinct says no even thought you cannot find completely why. Do you follow through? I assume you go through everything with a fine tooth comb before coming to a decision to rehome your kittens. If someone is no good, no budging will change your mind.

Yes, there are cats I have seen and would have loved to take on but I wouldn't push. No is no and to keep persisting would be come tiresome. It's quite rude to be honest.

Is it wrong for a breeder to only want their cat to go to someone who is going to show him? Personally, I don't see the problem but I don't know it all works.

Breeders say no many times so I don't see why there is such a problem and the breeder is almost being viewed as the suspicious one. Not everyone is the right person for a cat.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Of course we don't know if the breeder found the buyer otherwise perfect. _As I said_ in my post.

My question remains: I want to understand why a breeder, if all other aspects of the buyer suit, would refuse to sell a kitten to someone who doesn't want to show or breed that kitten. I would think that would be a desirable trait of a buyer, not a reason to refuse the sale. In fact I would expect breeders to sell only spayed and neutered kittens, or have it in the contract that proof of spay/neuter is required within the next 3 months after purchase.

And to be clear, these kittens are not being "rehomed" they are being sold.

As for "cats you have seen and would have loved to take on" that is not what I am talking about when I say instant bond. If you've experienced it, you know it. If you haven't, you won't understand it.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

korrok said:


> I've enjoyed staring at every cat I've ever owned every day.


For the beauty and elegance of a dearly loved friend! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, after all.



lorilu said:


> Isn't it just possible this person has bonded to the one kitten and that's why he is drawn to him? Haven't any of you felt an instant bond with a cat or kitten?
> 
> If this is just an excuse, because there is something not right about the potential buyer, seems like the breeder should be honest about it, instead of making up excuses.
> 
> So, I want to know, serious question please, why does it matter so much that the potential owner doesn't want to show or breed this kitten. I would think that would be preferred? I don't understand.


Yes it's just like any other relationship, we are drawn to certain people and animals, animals are drawn to certain people and each other.

OP may well have formed an instant loving bond with this kitten but that is not what comes across in the post. The message I'm getting is "I want this one because it is perfect and I want to look at a physically perfect specimen" which doesn't seem to me the right way to choose an animal. The breeder will also know the personalities of these two kittens and be in a position to make the call that this home is not right for this cat but it is for this one.

If we're talking about a minority breed with a limited gene pool - I'm guessing here but say a Ragdoll on traditional lines like my Bobby - if you want to strengthen and expand the breed, but you have one foundation 10 generations ago, your gene pool is limited. I'm guessing it would be in the best interests of the future of the breed not to pass up the opportunity to breed from a cat that is a really good example and has plenty of potential matches that would not inbreed, wouldn't it? So you would be reluctant to sell to someone who was not going to breed from that cat. That's just my logic, I don't know spit about breeding.

But I know if I had a common moggy that got herself pregnant and someone came to me with the exact words of the OP I would be very reluctant to let my kitten go there. Sorry OP it's nothing personal, just my concern for a cat to be loved for who he is, not what he is.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

I think I'm aware that the kittens are sold, not rehomed but thanks though.

Well as I asked before, is it really naughty of a breeder to only want to sell their cat if it will be showed? Is that unethical, against rules, suspicious. I'd like that answer from a breeder too.

Personally, I thought there was nothing suspicious as it is something that is done. I guess they want him to still be shown, the same way some breeders want other things before homing their kittens. 

-Awaits on breeders replies-


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

ForeverHome said:


> If we're talking about a minority breed with a limited gene pool - I'm guessing here but say a Ragdoll on traditional lines like my Bobby - if you want to strengthen and expand the breed, but you have one foundation 10 generations ago, your gene pool is limited. I'm guessing it would be in the best interests of the future of the breed not to pass up the opportunity to breed from a cat that is a really good example and has plenty of potential matches that would not inbreed, wouldn't it? So you would be reluctant to sell to someone who was not going to breed from that cat. That's just my logic, I don't know spit about breeding.
> 
> .


That makes sense, but then why offer to sell this 'perfect specimen' at all? Ethical responsible breeders don't want to encourage back yard breeders do they? It makes no sense to me.

As for focusing on looks, well, I see a LOT of that around here, people coming in asking about a specific breed or look of cat they are looking for. It annoys me no end, why people feel they have to have a specific "look" or the cat is no good, but I stay out of it most of the time.

What compelled me to get involved this time is not the OPs vibe, but the _reason_ the breeder (allegedly) gave for not selling this kitten, that being the buyer wants a pet not a show cat or stud. The breeders replying seemed to think this was legitimate reason for refusal and it just doesn't sit well with me, so I want to understand why.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

I rescued a cat from abusive owners so, yes, I know what that instant bond is. She's my cat now and she's like my baby.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

I so agree with you Lorilu and I guess that's why there are so many black cats (and dogs) pining away in shelters? I don't even consider the colour of a car when I'm buying so you can imagine choosing an animal on colour horrifies me, but I'm happy to accept people have preferences on breed etc. But then again I'd be one to walk into a shelter and say "take me to the animal you think you'll never rehome"


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

I was on a waiting list for a long time before I got Cedar. Before his mum had was even old enough to be mated. I didn't have a preference on colour or sex when I went on the list.

When I saw the the litter, I wanted Cedar. I didnt know him, I had never met him, he was a few days old when I saw his pic - but he was the one I wanted.

The rest of the litter were also absolutely beautiful - but I fell in love with a photo of a little cream boy.

Does that make me shallow?


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

MCW do you not see a world of difference between "falling in love with a photo of a little cream boy" and "I'm set on this guy because the other one is not of the same quality"? I do.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

It may just be a question of semantics with English not being the OP's first language. I am not criticising his/her fluency which is excellent, but different cultures/societies may express the same thing using slightly different vocabulary. 

TBH the way I read the OP's post is simply they saw a kitten whom they had fallen for in a big way and wanted to buy it. The OP could only really base this feeling of wanting to own the kitten on the kitten's looks, or at the most on 
how friendly and approachable the kitten was, as it would be impossible to know more than that on the strength of one or at most two, brief meetings. 

Also the personality of a kitten is not always an exact indication of how the kitten will grow up to be as a cat, as personality traits will emerge that were not noticeable in a young kitten. So I don't think most people would expect to choose a kitten based on their personality, except in the most general sense (e.g. whether the kitten is timid or is friendly). 

When I chose my two Silver BSH kittens (many years ago) I had been on the breeder's waiting list and I was given first choice. Choosing from 7 gorgeous, friendly kittens was difficult. I chose the female on the basis of her beautiful markings (silver spotted) and the male on the basis he was the playmate of that female. Fairly arbitrary reasons really. I think this is an acceptable way to choose a pedigree kitten. Or even a moggy kitten.

On the other hand my current 2 kittens, are B/W moggies (sisters) and the reason I chose them was because they'd been in the Shelter for 6 weeks with no adopter showing any interest in them. They were being bullied by another female cat in their pen, and their health was beginning to suffer no doubt from the stress. So, a different way of making a choice, but AFAIC both ways of making the choice are equally acceptable, depending on the individual circumstances.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> if all other aspects of the buyer suit, would refuse to sell a kitten to someone who doesn't want to show or breed that kitten.


They may well have a waiting list and there be another perfect home where the buyer has been waiting for a kitten with show potential. That buyer may have been further down the list if the breeder is trying to be fair and deal with waiting buyers in strict order rather than profiling kittens and new owners. When you do have a waiting list of buyers with preferences it's just about impossible to please everyone.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

chillminx said:


> It may just be a question of semantics with English not being the OP's first language. I am not criticising his/her fluency which is excellent, but different cultures/societies may express the same thing using slightly different vocabulary.
> 
> TBH the way I read the OP's post is simply they saw a kitten whom they had fallen for in a big way and wanted to buy it. The OP could only really base this feeling of wanting to own the kitten on the kitten's looks, or at the most on
> how friendly and approachable the kitten was, as it would be impossible to know more than that on the strength of one or at most two, brief meetings.
> ...


First point's a fair one, accepted.

So in each situation you were given a choice. You made that choice from the options available. You didn't say I don't want these I want that one over there that's got conditions on that I can't meet.

Edit to pick up on Blackcats' comment


> Well as I asked before, is it really naughty of a breeder to only want to sell their cat if it will be showed? Is that unethical, against rules, suspicious. I'd like that answer from a breeder too.


Let's say the breeder was still breeding from the dam and/or sire of this kitten, would it bump up the value of future kittens if they were sold as from the same line as a show champion?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> For the beauty and elegance of a dearly loved friend! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, after all.
> 
> Yes it's just like any other relationship, we are drawn to certain people and animals, animals are drawn to certain people and each other.
> 
> ...


Exactly.
This is how it came across to me, too. And I said as much in an earlier post.



Jiskefet said:


> <>
> 
> Another consideration may be going through their mind, too.....
> If you have little or no experience with the breed and don't intend to get involved to the extent of wanting to further the breed, *but are still set on having this cat primarily because of his show quality, what will happen if his personality does not agree with you, if he turns out to be quite a handful....
> ...


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

LouiseH said:


> A question for the breeders - is this a common thing to do? And would a show quality cat be around double the price of non show?


Okay from a UK point of view (I've no idea how the economics of the cat world in the US work)

It's blooming difficult to get that perfect breed standard cat. Those people who seem to think that every kitten they breed are show/breed quality are wrong. The vast majority of kitten are destined for a pet home only. Look at Soupie, 3 litters over 2 years before she got her curly show cat. That's genetics for you. So if you can tell already at 3 weeks old that one cat has it over another (I couldn't at 3 weeks mind) and you've been waiting a while why, as a breeder, shouldn't you want it to go as a show kitten? (there has never been any confirmation that this cat is to be bred from - just conjecture) Showing is the proof that you've got it right. On a shallow point of view it's advertising for your cattery and people like kittens from titles cat - or to be able to say my kitten's 1/2 sister is a double champion for some reason.

As for price - I don't charge any more for a kitten with show potential than a pet kitten. It's only potential and I can't force judges to choose my kitten over others. Showing is expensive and charging more for the kitten it doesn't make it a more attractive hobby. So some breeders will charge more (I don't think I've ever heard of double in the UK - maybe an extra £50 - £100) but, as I said, most don't charge anything extra. Breeding, is different. Breeding rights cost more. Nor do I charge more because the parents/ grandparents are/were titled. But then the majority of the people I accept onto my waiting list are after personality first. And I will do my darndest to make sure they get a well socialised, happy, interested, kitten, regardless of it's looks. If someone want ed a cat purely on looks and I knew they weren't suited temperament wise, they wouldn't get it.

Basically these kittens are 3 weeks old, and will change massively over the next few weeks. My advice to the OP; sit tight and wait patiently. If this kitten has won your heart then wait and hope but don't badger. If it's purely on looks these kittens are going to change massively. Sometimes the 'ugliest' 3 week old turns into the most stunning cat.

This is Blossom - a real strange looking cat at 3 weeks old ( sorry MCW) and this is her now; an absolute stunner






,


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

That's it, I've got it. 

It's the element of judgement (quality, perfection) rather than unconditional love, that's made me uncomfortable. 

Many kittens and cats can be and are chosen as pets for their looks but without that judgement.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

Regarding buying a kitten for looks, our Firework litter went to their new homes a couple of weeks ago, they were all beautiful in my eyes, one of the little black boys was the tiniest of the bunch, he had a few silver hairs in his coat when the couple came to view him, before collection day little Jet had developed a few more silver hairs and had developed a little kink in his tail, I contacted the couple who wanted him to let them know just in case they didn't want him any more, my reply from them was "Oh well, he will just look all the more cuter to us, we love him anyway". 
I was so pleased they felt this way, he is really spoilt with them and is enjoying his new home playing with their older little Oriental and his new owner is over the moon with him.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> That's it, I've got it.
> 
> It's the element of judgement (quality, perfection) rather than unconditional love, that's made me uncomfortable.
> 
> Many kittens and cats can be and are chosen as pets for their looks but without that judgement.


That may be the case with the OP, I don't know. But I can absolutely assure you that it isn't the case for the very vast majority who come to my home to choose a pet kitten. Prospective owners ask all kinds of questions but these mostly centre around the kittens' personalities. If they happen to have some choice within a litter, I never influence their decision apart from to tell them which I think might be most suitable, depending upon their home life/family circumstances. All being equal, 99% of prospective pet owners have absolutely no clue which might be potential show quality and which are not... borne out by the fact that, looking at my kittens with my breeder/exhibitor's hat on, when there is nothing to choose between kittens temperament wise, I am still often slightly surprised at people's choice which tells me there is just something about that particular kitten which appeals to them.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> But I can absolutely assure you that it isn't the case for the very vast majority who come to my home to choose a pet kitten. Prospective owners ask all kinds of questions but these mostly centre around the kittens' personalities.
> I am still often slightly surprised at people's choice which tells me there is just something about that particular kitten which appeals to them.


My point exactly - looks might be a factor in choosing one from several which is perfectly natural, we all do it not just with animals but other people too.

But the vast majority of us don't then go on to judge another animal is inferior, or substandard, or not good enough for us to love, purely on looks.

I would hope OP has just put it across not very well but reading cold words on a screen puts across something judgemental.

I do hope I'm making some sense to somebody


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> I would hope OP has just put it across not very well but reading cold words on a screen puts across something judgemental.
> 
> I do hope I'm making some sense to somebody


You're making perfect sense to me.

I usually have a dreadful memory but for some reason on this occasion I remembered previous, old threads by the OP going back quite a long time regarding Maine Coon kittens. Whilst it's always nice when prospective pet owners have informed themselves/researched the breed of their choice, if I were the breeder on this occasion and happened to stumble across this (and previous) threads and recognised them as being written by one of my prospective kitten owners, I would have been happy for them to look elsewhere for a kitten.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> You're making perfect sense to me.
> 
> I usually have a dreadful memory but for some reason on this occasion I remembered previous, old threads by the OP going back quite a long time regarding Maine Coon kittens. Whilst it's always nice when prospective pet owners have informed themselves/researched the breed of their choice, if I were the breeder on this occasion and happened to stumble across this (and previous) threads and recognised them as being written by one of my prospective kitten owners, I would have been happy for them to look elsewhere for a kitten.


I agree...
The OP seems to be obsessed with the cat's looks. Not just in this post, but in previous threads as well. If I were a breeder, I wouldn't sell to someone who is looking for the prettiest cat instead of the cat with the nicest personality, and who would best suit his domestic situation.....

Show quality is only important if you want to show or breed. In a pet, the thing that counts is the click - personaltiy-wise.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Jiskefet said:


> I agree...
> The OP seems to be obsessed with the cat's looks. Not just in this post, but in previous threads as well. If I were a breeder, I wouldn't sell to someone who is looking for the prettiest cat instead of the cat with the nicest personality, and who would best suit his domestic situation.....
> 
> Show quality is only important if you want to show or breed. In a pet, the thing that counts is the click - personaltiy-wise.


I have also looked at previous threads by the OP and I think you have hit the nail on the head - the OP clearly doesnt want to show which only leaves breeding.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

wicket said:


> I have also looked at previous threads by the OP and I think you have hit the nail on the head - the OP clearly doesnt want to show which only leaves breeding.


Doesn't the OP have a Persian and was looking for a siamese a while ago? Or am I muddling them up with someone else?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I re-read some of his previous threads and something about the whole matter doesn't ring quite true, to put it mildly.

He was looking at Maine Coons, and in the cat chat thread he said he wanted him as a pet, but he also had a thread in cat breeding saying he wanted a stud for breeding. When this thread was referred to in the cat chat thread, the OP got quite unpleasant, accusing people of hi-jacking HIS thread with irrelevant comments.....

I may be overly suspicious, but to me, this person's entire attitude has 'prospective BYB' stamped all over.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Nobody has said shallow here. Not my words.

There are plenty of kittens and cats we have all seen and our hearts have probably melted by how adorable they look but I don't think there is anyone here who would choose a cat purely just by how they look and I doubt a breeder would allow that either. Imagine saying 'Oohh, I want that one. It looks pretty'

No chance.

We go by how their personality is too. Tbh, all cats are adorable to me and I go by how a cat's personality is, if it's right for me and if my personality is right for it's too.

I'm not saying for one moment the OP is in the wrong for falling in love with the cat in question and wanting it but when the OP just says because it's beautiful, doesn't seem right. I've seen a few thread where members talk about felines and they don't just talk about their looks. They always give a put on the cats personality and how they love it so.

There could be a beautiful cat in the future I might love but if the personality isn't right and I know I'm not right for it, I wouldn't bother, regardless how beautiful it is.

And (I only have my beautiful moggies at present) if I did ever, in the future, want a breed I would first search as much as possible and decide on how personalities are with certain breeds (Though that varies to each kitten, regardless if it's the same breed) but I wouldn't just go by looks.

I have a soft spot for all cats and think all are equally beautiful in my eyes, all with unique personalities.

I just think that if I were that breeder I would be tired of someone being persistent, regardless how much they love the cat in question. No is no and we cannot always have our own way. 

Nothing wrong with a breeder making a decision on their pet, is there?

Plus, wasn't the OP talking about Maine Coons awhile back to do with breeding? I may be wrong mind.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Yes, he was talking about a stud for breeding on one thread in Breeding, and about how to recognize the physically most perfect show cat to buy 'as a pet' on another thread in Chat. When people referred to his breeding stud thread, he got quite nasty.......


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Blackcats said:


> <snip>
> Well as I asked before, is it really naughty of a breeder to only want to sell their cat if it will be showed? Is that unethical, against rules, suspicious. I'd like that answer from a breeder too.
> <snip>


Absolutely not in my view. Until I sell one of my kittens it's *my *kitten.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Thanks for the reply.

Why are people slamming the breeder for wanting that then? So confused. Gah.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> Absolutely not in my view.


Mine either. Some breeders are very keen for their kittens to be shown and, if that home is every bit as good or better than an available pet home, then why not? Personally, I really don't care in that regard but it's down to choice, isn't it.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Blackcats said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> Why are people slamming the breeder for wanting that then? So confused. Gah.


Not disputing what you're saying, I can't recall what was said and I don't have the will to read the whole thread again  From my point of view, as a breeder, I would not be happy to let one of my kittens go to an owner who seemed so utterly preoccupied with having the "best" kitten in the litter. In those circumstances, I would hardly be saying oh, but you can have this one instead. Frankly, they'd be out of the door. I suppose that would be my implied criticism if, indeed, that is case here. But for all we know, the breeder in question doesn't want the OP to have one of his/her kittens AT all.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Haven't read the whole discussion but as a breeder I'd be quite annoyed if someone tried to persuade me after I've said no. I probably wouldn't sell a kitten to that person at all.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> Absolutely not in my view. Until I sell one of my kittens it's *my *kitten.


Agree. Breeders can put any conditions they want - if the buyers do not agree, they can find another kitten elsewhere. It is a free world, is not it? 
Also why is it wrong for someone to fall in love with a kitten because of his/her looks? Let us be honest, when a person or a family come to view a litter of seven kittens and spend an hour with them - how do they know their personalities? The most outgoing kitten might be just sleepy at the time of the visit (happened to our Rocky) or the most affectionate would not show his nature to strangers. What is left? The looks. And with pedigree cats - the features common to cats of the breed in question. You have to live with a living creature (which is a kitten) to really find out and come to love his/her personality. And when people say - oh, this cat just chose me... Well, whatever makes you happy! All cats are lovely creatures in their own ways unless they had some really bad experience in their life. So with a healthy young kitten from a good breeder you cannot really miss.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

I agree with what you're saying. Understanding a cat can take years and sometimes we never fully do.

But if someone goes to see a litter of kittens they may not necessary get to know the personality of each individual kitten but they will get a feel of it and a glance of it too.

Edit: I'd like to ask another questions to you breeders if I can please?

People are saying it is just about looks when choosing a kitten. Is this true? Do people visiting your kittens decide on what one they want just by looks and you then also decide which one is good for them by their looks too? Surely there is more to it than that, not including the personality of the person and their living conditions and finance of course.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> Absolutely not in my view. Until I sell one of my kittens it's *my *kitten.


So is it this not a uncommon thing for some breeders to sell on their cat but wanting it to be shown?

What does showing a cat entail exactly? Is it about breeding them or is it just to show off your cat and meet other breeders too?

Sorry for all the questions. Great hearing all opinions.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> Absolutely not in my view. Until I sell one of my kittens it's *my *kitten.





gskinner123 said:


> Mine either. Some breeders are very keen for their kittens to be shown and, if that home is every bit as good or better than an available pet home, then why not? Personally, I really don't care in that regard but it's down to choice, isn't it.


I am still waiting for a breeder to tell us WHY? Please, tell us WHY, all other criteria being met, you would refuse to sell what you consider a potential show kitten to someone who does not want to show this kitten, wants only a pet.

What difference does it make? I'm not trying to be snarky, I really want to understand why it matters to a breeder if a kitten is well loved and kept as a pet rather than shown, which, it seems to me, opens another world of potential not so good treatment and care, especially as the cat must be kept intact. I would think a breeder would prefer the cat be kept as a PET, since it would be better for the cat.

So, why?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

lorilu said:


> I am still waiting for a breeder to tell us WHY? Please, tell us WHY, all other criteria being met, you would refuse to sell what you consider a potential show kitten to someone who does not want to show this kitten, wants only a pet.
> 
> What difference does it make?


I wonder if this is really the case...
The breeder may have been sounding out the potential buyer to see where his priorities lay, and offered him the only kitten he KNEW the buyer wouldn't even consider, because he didn't want to say outright that he would not sell because he didn't like what he saw and heard.
Or else the OP only heard - and possibly even misinterpreted - the comments about the breeder's aspirations for a show quality cat. Maybe any comments made about personality didn't even register because the buyer is far too preoccupied with looks.

If someone came around to adopt a cat of mine, and would go on about how he HAD to have this particular cat because he wanted a perfect specimen (which is a returning theme in the OP's previous threads), whether I was ready to let it go to him or not, they would convince me very quickly they would not get _any_ cat from me.....


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

lorilu said:


> I am still waiting for a breeder to tell us WHY? Please, tell us WHY, all other criteria being met, you would refuse to sell what you consider a potential show kitten to someone who does not want to show this kitten, wants only a pet.
> 
> What difference does it make? I'm not trying to be snarky, I really want to understand why it matters to a breeder if a kitten is well loved and kept as a pet rather than shown, which, it seems to me, opens another world of potential not so good treatment and care, especially as the cat must be kept intact. I would think a breeder would prefer the cat be kept as a PET, since it would be better for the cat.
> 
> So, why?


I think the only way we will know is if the breeder in question ever stumbled onto this thread and answered or if the OP has more to tell us.

Or...They go back and ask why the breeder refuses to sell if not being shown and then feed back to us.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Again, as I have said before, - I am asking the breeders who have already stated in this thread that they would prefer to sell what they think may be a potential show kitten only to someone who will agree to show the cat.

My question is not related to the OP, or what the OPs qualifications are or are not. I want to know why a breeder thinks it is so important that a cat be shown, when from my point of view I would think a breeder would prefer that their cats be spayed/neutered and kept as pets, since obviously, that would be what is best for the cat.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

lorilu said:


> Again, as I have said before, - I am asking the breeders who have already stated in this thread that they would prefer to sell what they think may be a potential show kitten only to someone who will agree to show the cat.
> 
> My question is not related to the OP, or what the OPs qualifications are or are not. I want to know why a breeder thinks it is so important that a cat be shown, when from my point of view I would think a breeder would prefer that their cats be spayed/neutered and kept as pets, since obviously, that would be what is best for the cat.


I don't know why you're being somewhat rude. Really is no need for it. 

I am aware of that but to get the question you want perhaps ask the OP to ask the breeder on your question.

After all, the breeders here on this forum could give an answer but it may not the the answer to do with the breeder the OP wants the cat from.

And the breeders did reply saying they didn't see that as a problem on wanting to show a kitten and only giving it to someone who will. I understand it is something that is done anyway.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Blackcats said:


> I don't know why you're being somewhat rude. Really is no need for it.
> 
> I am aware of that but to get the question you want perhaps ask the OP to ask the breeder on your question.
> 
> ...


You keep trying to answer my question with your own theories that have nothing to do with what I want to know.

I am asking the breeders, _who have already posted in this thread that they would prefer to sell to someone who is going to show the cat_ why that is important to them.



lorilu said:


> I am still waiting for a breeder to tell us WHY? Please, tell us WHY, all other criteria being met, you would refuse to sell what you consider a potential show kitten to someone who does not want to show this kitten, wants only a pet.
> 
> What difference does it make? I'm not trying to be snarky, I really want to understand why it matters to a breeder if a kitten is well loved and kept as a pet rather than shown, which, it seems to me, opens another world of potential not so good treatment and care, especially as the cat must be kept intact. I would think a breeder would prefer the cat be kept as a PET, since it would be better for the cat.
> 
> So, why?





lorilu said:


> Again, as I have said before, - I am asking the breeders who have already stated in this thread that they would prefer to sell what they think may be a potential show kitten only to someone who will agree to show the cat.
> 
> My question is not related to the OP, or what the OPs qualifications are or are not. I want to know why a breeder thinks it is so important that a cat be shown, when from my point of view I would think a breeder would prefer that their cats be spayed/neutered and kept as pets, since obviously, that would be what is best for the cat.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

lorilu said:


> I am still waiting for a breeder to tell us WHY? Please, tell us WHY, all other criteria being met, you would refuse to sell what you consider a potential show kitten to someone who does not want to show this kitten, wants only a pet.
> 
> What difference does it make? I'm not trying to be snarky, I really want to understand why it matters to a breeder if a kitten is well loved and kept as a pet rather than shown, which, it seems to me, opens another world of potential not so good treatment and care, especially as the cat must be kept intact. I would think a breeder would prefer the cat be kept as a PET, since it would be better for the cat.
> 
> So, why?


Well I wouldn't if there was no one else suitable - that would be silly. But we don't know why this breeder won't sell - but the kittens are ONLY 3 weeks old. She can't really tell yet, and is probably waiting to see how they develop and so won't let the OP have a definite sale - I won't let anyone reserve a kitten until they are at least 6 weeks old.

But I would choose a person willing to show (all other being equal) a show quality kitten over a non show quality kitten. Because that's what they want to do and I would be wholly stupid to give them a non show quality kitten and say show it - all that does is tell all the other breeders and judges that I haven't got a clue about my own breed. SO you look for show homes
because you are very rightly proud of your show quality kitten which might be the only one you've bred in a few years and you would really, really like to show it or for it to be shown. And there is nothing wrong in that. In this country you are able to show neuters as well and with just as much 'prestige'. Showing is an enjoyable activity for both owner and cat in the main. Some cats don't take to it, but then they won't be shown again. A badly treated and uncared for cat is certainly NOT going to do well in the show world so no-one would buy a show kitten to show and then treat it badly.

I'm sure there are many show quality kittens that end up as pets. But, should a breeder have people wanting a show quality kitten and willing to wait (I have one person on my list waiting for just such a cat - and the personality of the cat needs to be just right too) why shouldn't that person get first dibs at that cat.

For me, it's not monetary as I don't charge any more for show potential. As I said in my previous post - whole litters of kittens AREN'T show quality and anyone that says they are is lying. So if you get that good one you want judges conformation that your breeding is going in the right direction. Otherwise what are you breeding for? - if you don't breed to the breed standard and try to get it right you are no better than a moggy byb breeder who only does it for the money.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

lorilu said:


> Again, as I have said before, - I am asking the breeders who have already stated in this thread that they would prefer to sell what they think may be a potential show kitten only to someone who will agree to show the cat.
> 
> My question is not related to the OP, or what the OPs qualifications are or are not. I want to know why a breeder thinks it is so important that a cat be shown, when from my point of view I would think a breeder would prefer that their cats be spayed/neutered and kept as pets, since obviously, that would be what is best for the cat.


As someone else already posted, not every kitten is show quality. I've had kittens born that are so near perfect, but I don't need them in my program so I've placed them in a home that will show them. A great deal of my kittens I would be more than happy for them to be shown, but if the owner doesn't want to they go as pets.

Those showing are out promoting the breed, showing is important to me, I'm not just breeding for pet kittens but to breed as close to the standard as I can.

I have a kitten here that came on the condition I show him, a kitten the breeder is proud of and wants out there promoting the breed.

All my cats are pets first, they all live in the house as normal pets and if they hate showing, well they don't continue going to shows. It's the same as show cats I've placed, if the cat doesn't enjoy it then they stay home.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

lorilu said:


> You keep trying to answer my question with your own theories that have nothing to do with what I want to know.
> 
> I am asking the breeders, _who have already posted in this thread that they would prefer to sell to someone who is going to show the cat_ why that is important to them.


I didn't try to answer your question at all actually. Merely suggesting on how you could get your answer.

I don't for one moment to pretend I know anything about breeding (Hence a lot of questions I have asked) so I don't appreciate being made out I have a clue what I'm on about and am trying to exactly do that.

Also, what I suggested had nothing to do with the question you asked. I have replied to you twice now. If you see the rest of my comments answering you fair enough.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Thank you for the replies. 

I guessed it was to do with wanting to show the quality and perfection of your cat. I also saw no problem with it either.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

lorilu said:


> You keep trying to answer my question with your own theories that have nothing to do with what I want to know.
> 
> I am asking the breeders, _who have already posted in this thread that they would prefer to sell to someone who is going to show the cat_ why that is important to them.


I think the problem is you are assuming that the breeders that have answered have some kind of magic answer for you. I can only answer for me, and no-one else and none of us here have any idea why the OPs breeder has said what she has.

It's like trying to ask someone why and exactly why, they like Marmite and not Bovril.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Now we're getting some where. Thanks to you both for your explanations. yes I understand that not all kittens are show quality,. That is why I am having such a hard time understanding.

So, why would you even sell a kitten so valuable to you, if the show quality of the kitten was so high?

Part of my problem is, who I am, I guess. I can't wrap my mind around thinking of showing as an "enjoyable activity" especially for the cat. It sounds just awful to me, and I can't imagine anyone thinking it's fun, or _any_ cat getting enjoyment out of it.

That's my ignorance about showing, showing (haha) but I can't get past it. It sounds like a horrible ordeal to me, especially for the cat. My mother and I went to a cat show once. It was horrible, noisy, LOUD, crowded, smelly, and most of the cats looked terrified.



spid said:


> Because you are very rightly proud of your show quality kitten which might be the only one you've bred in a few years and you would really, really like to show it or for it to be shown. And there is nothing wrong in that. In this country you are able to show neuters as well and with just as much 'prestige'. Showing is an enjoyable activity for both owner and cat in the main. Some cats don't take to it, but then they won't be shown again. A badly treated and uncared for cat is certainly NOT going to do well in the show world so no-one would buy a show kitten to show and then treat it badly.
> 
> I'm sure there are many show quality kittens that end up as pets. But, should a breeder have people wanting a show quality kitten and willing to wait (I have one person on my list waiting for just such a cat - and the personality of the cat needs to be just right too) why shouldn't that person get first dibs at that cat.
> 
> For me, it's not monetary as I don't charge any more for show potential. As I said in my previous post - whole litters of kittens AREN'T show quality and anyone that says they are is lying. So if you get that good one you want judges conformation that your breeding is going in the right direction. Otherwise what are you breeding for? - if you don't breed to the breed standard and try to get it right you are no better than a moggy byb breeder who only does it for the money.





spotty cats said:


> As someone else already posted, not every kitten is show quality. I've had kittens born that are so near perfect, but I don't need them in my program so I've placed them in a home that will show them. A great deal of my kittens I would be more than happy for them to be shown, but if the owner doesn't want to they go as pets.
> 
> Those showing are out promoting the breed, showing is important to me, I'm not just breeding for pet kittens but to breed as close to the standard as I can.
> 
> ...


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

For me, it'd simply be some kind of recognition that my hard work had paid off a kitten who turned out looking the way I have been working towards). Please take note the kitten's happiness always counts first. However in my modest experience, a 'show home' isn't necessarily a bad home (in fact, usually quite good since it involves extra effort) so I would have no real need to have to home THE kitten I have been waiting for in a non-show home.

Ps: I hate going to shows and only do so out of of necessity and obligation (to learning more and doing the best I can for my breed) but I do consider showing important as a novice breeder (besides all the boredom and sometimes pettiness, there is also a wealth of knowledge to be found).


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

spid said:


> I think the problem is you are assuming that the breeders that have answered have some kind of magic answer for you. I can only answer for me, and no-one else and none of us here have any idea why the OPs breeder has said what she has.
> 
> It's like trying to ask someone why and exactly why, they like Marmite and not Bovril.


Ugh, why am I not getting through what I am asking? I am not asking about the OPs breeder. I am asking about YOUR perspectives, the breeders who have already posted in this thread. I have said that at least three times!:biggrin5:

Anyway your answer above helped a bit.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I am not a breeder, but I did attend some shows with a sales stand for a cat charity. I thought them noisy and, in some respects, not very nice. I assumed all the noise in such a hall would be unpleasant for the cats as well, but the cats shown obviously enjoyed the attention they were getting, and when they got tired of it, they simply went to sleep in their cages. All the cats I saw looked utterly happy and content.
And I thoroughly enjoyed seeing all these happy, gorgeous cats. I might even attend future shows just to see the cats, even if I don't HAVE to go there.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

pipje said:


> For me, it'd simply be some kind of recognition that my hard work had paid off a kitten who turned out looking the way I have been working towards).


Exactly this.

In an ideal world, a kitten with good show potential would be kept back by the breeder, but this isn't always practical or possible.

It can be very disappointing not to find the ideal show home for a very special one, but that said, an exceptionally good pet home would be just as suitable.

I once had someone who had two kittens from me, not really show quality but she insisted on showing them anyway just for fun. Such a shame I wasn't able to offer her anything better from that litter.

In the next litter I had a lovely male kitten - a very slight pip at the tip of his tail would have held him back from top honours. He did go to a pet home and they weren't interested in showing him, which was slightly disappointing to me, but not a crushing blow. Had he not had that pip, I would have felt a bit differently and might have held him back in case a show home came along.

The best homes are always a priority - show or not - but there's no reason why you can't hope to find both in one.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

lorilu said:


> So, why would you even sell a kitten so valuable to you, if the show quality of the kitten was so high?
> 
> Part of my problem is, who I am, I guess. I can't wrap my mind around thinking of showing as an "enjoyable activity" especially for the cat. It sounds just awful to me, and I can't imagine anyone thinking it's fun, or _any_ cat getting enjoyment out of it.
> 
> That's my ignorance about showing, showing (haha) but I can't get past it. It sounds like a horrible ordeal to me, especially for the cat. My mother and I went to a cat show once. It was horrible, noisy, LOUD, crowded, smelly, and most of the cats looked terrified.


I don't need a stud that I've bred myself, so the (neutered) boys were placed in show homes instead.

My cats are not at all phased by noise or strange places. A cat that doesn't like showing can't be shown, they make that very clear in their behaviour.

Does this kitten look stressed? At an expo with thousands of people touching and holding him.








Napping with my friends Bengal who came from the bed next door


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

korrok said:


> I've enjoyed staring at every cat I've ever owned every day.


I don't so much stare at our three, as watch the thieving little buggers like a hawk!

:skep::skep::skep:


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> My cats are not at all phased by noise or strange places. A cat that doesn't like showing can't be shown, they make that very clear in their behaviour.
> 
> ]


For reference sake, this is a cat which is stressed up at shows(and is thus no longer shown):










As spotty cats said, they do make it quite clear!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lorilu said:


> I am still waiting for a breeder to tell us WHY? Please, tell us WHY, all other criteria being met, you would refuse to sell what you consider a potential show kitten to someone who does not want to show this kitten, wants only a pet.
> 
> What difference does it make? I'm not trying to be snarky, I really want to understand why it matters to a breeder if a kitten is well loved and kept as a pet rather than shown, which, it seems to me, opens another world of potential not so good treatment and care, especially as the cat must be kept intact. I would think a breeder would prefer the cat be kept as a PET, since it would be better for the cat.
> 
> So, why?


I think you've somehow misinterpreted what I said  I can't speak for other breeders, but I prefer my kittens to go to pet homes; I can't really put it any simpler than that. I've bred/shown cats for a very long time, have done the whole show scene (and still do in a very limited way - I find it quite boring amongst other things), have bred numerous cats who have achieved the highest titles but that's all quite arbitrary really. I still get the greatest satisfaction from the sheer joy pet kittens give their new owners and from the friends I've made along the way.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

lorilu said:


> Ugh, why am I not getting through what I am asking? I am not asking about the OPs breeder. I am asking about YOUR perspectives, the breeders who have already posted in this thread. I have said that at least three times!:biggrin5:
> 
> Anyway your answer above helped a bit.


And I have answered you in a long post at least twice - what I don't get it what MORE you want us to say. You are asking questions that are beyond my remit. I can't answer as I don't have answers for that way of thinking as I don't think that way.

A lot of cats LOVE showing - both Carly's and Soupie's boys bounce with excitement when they see the show equipment being readied.

I think I've had it now - I can't re-explain any better and your questions aren't getting any clearer.


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

lorilu said:


> *Ugh, why am I not getting through what I am asking?* I am not asking about the OPs breeder. I am asking about YOUR perspectives, the breeders who have already posted in this thread. I have said that at least three times!:biggrin5:
> 
> Anyway your answer above helped a bit.


you are getting through but no one has an answer for you. throwing a fit and demanding a answer wont get you one when no one has one to give. People have made their feelings on the topic clear, some understand some would rather they go as pets. I dont see what more there is to tell you?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

If you are having this sort of badgering attitude with the breeder, you'll be lucky to leave with a hairball, let alone a show quality kitten!

The breeder puts a lot of work and money into a litter. If one of the kittens is outstanding, I don't think it's unreasonable to hope that this will be recognised on the show bench - and it's also a good advertisement for any further litters they might produce.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

If people did not take their cats to cat shows, most people would have no chance to see the beauty and loveliness of the best specimens of pedigree cats that there are in the world. It would deprive people of beauty. I agree that the judging is not very objective sometimes. But for me this is not the point. The point is that I get to know other breeders, learn from them, meet the owners of the studs I might use in future. 
Some people are competitive and it is not a bad thing if it drives them to breed even better cats. 
People like me must be hilarious to them. When my kitten was shown - she was the third in her class. 
Funny enough, when I was looking at the two kittens which were considered better, i did not feel any jealousy - they all looked so lovely and beautiful and obviously did not give the monkey's about their awards. I just loved them all and guess what - still the best kitten in class came home with me.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lorilu said:


> I am still waiting for a breeder to tell us WHY? Please, tell us WHY, all other criteria being met, you would refuse to sell what you consider a potential show kitten to someone who does not want to show this kitten, wants only a pet.
> 
> What difference does it make? I'm not trying to be snarky, I really want to understand why it matters to a breeder if a kitten is well loved and kept as a pet rather than shown, which, it seems to me, opens another world of potential not so good treatment and care, especially as the cat must be kept intact. I would think a breeder would prefer the cat be kept as a PET, since it would be better for the cat.
> 
> So, why?


As I've said, it's my choice who I sell my kittens to and I see no reason to have to justify it.

BTW there is absolutely no need here (UK) to keep a cat entire for showing. The GCCF has sections for Adults (e.g. entires), kittens (entire & neutered) & Neuters. Adults & Neuters are over 9 calendar months old.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

There's no reason to keep a cat entire in most organisations. As far as I know, CFA takes alters, FiFE definitely does, and so does TICA.

As for shows being horrible for the cats, I agree. It must be horrendous for my Tango who boings up and down with excitement when he sees me getting his show equipment out, who then squeaks and chunters at me until I set up a carrier so that he can get in it, lie down, and yell at me to close the door because he wants to go, NOW!!! He makes his feelings very clear on the way to the rings, voicing his displeasure in a big, rumbly purr as he's carried through the hall, head swivelling every which way to watch what's going on, a paw occasionally coming out to tap the arm of the person guiding me, just to make sure they'll still turn round to tell him he's gorgeous. He hates having his tummy groomed in the show hall as he lies at full stretch on his back on my knee, paws in the air and head lolled back.

So yes, I agree. I can't possibly understand why people show their cats, nor why a breeder would want to sell to the sort of life where, on a regular basis, a cat has a whole day or weekend of people fawning over them, cuddling them, holding them, tickling them, playing with them, brushing them, and telling them how gorgeous they are.

Do I really need to justify why I'd want to sell the perfect kitten with the perfect show temperament to a home who wouldn't give him that? If I breed a cat who is perfect, or as close as it gets, and who I think would enjoy the experience, I would sell to a show home. To be fair, i wouldn't hold one back if there was a pet home waiting, a nice pet home mind you, and there was no show home on my waiting list, but if there was a show home and a pet home who both loved the kitten equally, and that kitten was a stunner, then the show home would get them.


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## korrok (Sep 4, 2013)

carly87 said:


> There's no reason to keep a cat entire in most organisations. As far as I know, CFA takes alters, FiFE definitely does, and so does TICA.
> 
> As for shows being horrible for the cats, I agree. It must be horrendous for my Tango who boings up and down with excitement when he sees me getting his show equipment out, who then squeaks and chunters at me until I set up a carrier so that he can get in it, lie down, and yell at me to close the door because he wants to go, NOW!!! He makes his feelings very clear on the way to the rings, voicing his displeasure in a big, rumbly purr as he's carried through the hall, head swivelling every which way to watch what's going on, a paw occasionally coming out to tap the arm of the person guiding me, just to make sure they'll still turn round to tell him he's gorgeous. He hates having his tummy groomed in the show hall as he lies at full stretch on his back on my knee, paws in the air and head lolled back.
> 
> ...


I think it's when people think "MY cat would hate shows!" because well, a lot of cats really would, especially if their experience of a cat carrier is always the vet and they're not used to other animals etc. But they don't look beyond that to the fact there are plenty of cats with very outgoing personalities who are happy with the showing process.


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## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

korrok said:


> I think it's when people think "MY cat would hate shows!" because well, a lot of cats really would, especially if their experience of a cat carrier is always the vet and they're not used to other animals etc.


All of my cats looove carriers, whether they go to shows or not. If I open a random carrier and place it in the middle of the floor, all of the cats will want to go in it. This happens everytime I have people picking up kittens too.. 
I keep one carrier open so they can sleep in it if they want to.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Funny you should say that, but that happens me too. The new owners put their carrier down to allow their kittens to investigate it, then have to dig granny out of it, prize mum out, then give up.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

carly87 said:


> There's no reason to keep a cat entire in most organisations. As far as I know, CFA takes alters, FiFE definitely does, and so does TICA.
> 
> As for shows being horrible for the cats, I agree. It must be horrendous for my Tango who boings up and down with excitement when he sees me getting his show equipment out, who then squeaks and chunters at me until I set up a carrier so that he can get in it, lie down, and yell at me to close the door because he wants to go, NOW!!! He makes his feelings very clear on the way to the rings, voicing his displeasure in a big, rumbly purr as he's carried through the hall, head swivelling every which way to watch what's going on,* a paw occasionally coming out to tap the arm of the person guiding me, just to make sure they'll still turn round to tell him he's gorgeous.* He hates having his tummy groomed in the show hall as he lies at full stretch on his back on my knee, paws in the air and head lolled back.
> This is monstrous! That poor cat - fancy having to REMIND people to tell him how fabulous he is!!!
> ...


I don't breed, but I would feel the same - you've put a lot of work into your litters - it's only human to want to see them in their glory. Can't understand why OP is being so dogmatic about it.

As for shows being stressful - I would imagine that some cats, like some people, would prefer a quiet and almost hermit-like life. But a stressed out cat wouldn't show well anyway, so I can't see anyone forcing a cat into a situation where it was obviously uncomfortable.


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## korrok (Sep 4, 2013)

NorthernDarkness said:


> All of my cats looove carriers, whether they go to shows or not. If I open a random carrier and place it in the middle of the floor, all of the cats will want to go in it. This happens everytime I have people picking up kittens too..
> I keep one carrier open so they can sleep in it if they want to.


I got my two as adults and they hate the carrier. Not much to be done about it at this point unfortunately, I think!


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

korrok said:


> I got my two as adults and they hate the carrier. Not much to be done about it at this point unfortunately, I think!


Ooo I would take that as a challenge!

Molly hated it so much she was 3 hours late arriving. Firstly, her old one was put out of use. It's now Bobby's bed. Second, get brand new carriers and leave them permanently out. Occasionally casually put treats or catnip or toys in them, randomly and nonchalantly. Let them be just a part of the furniture, with the doors removed if they are removable. They may have the power to surprise you.

I am going to see if I can train Molly to walk in on command, no idea if it will work but we're going to have fun trying. Then step by step get her used to having the door closed, then being carried around the house. The way I'm thinking is that if the only time they go in the carrier it's scary, they will always hate it. The more often it's a good happy experience, the less they will fear it when you need them to accept it.

Molly barely an hour after her first visit to the vet with me:


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> All of my cats looove carriers, whether they go to shows or not. If I open a random carrier and place it in the middle of the floor, all of the cats will want to go in it. This happens everytime I have people picking up kittens too..


Same here. I've ended up taking adult cats along for the ride when kittens go for vaccination. It's easier than trying to get only the 'right' ones in carriers.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

havoc said:


> Same here. I've ended up taking adult cats along for the ride when kittens go for vaccination. It's easier than trying to get only the 'right' ones in carriers.


Ha it's occurred to me to take Bobby along for the ride when Molly goes, not only will he help keep her calm but I have never seen such distress as HIM when I took her out of the house.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2014)

I find the title of this thread really disturbing


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I turned up at a cat show once to find I had a stowaway - had only entered one cat and there were two in the (small) carrier!

Liz


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