# Dog Aggression!!!



## cat001 (Apr 12, 2008)

The dog in question belongs to my sisters friend, He's 1/4 Doberman 3/4 German Shepherd. We've been helping to look after him for the last 6 months or so by babysitting him every now and again, he's now 10 months old. 
We help look after him because of his seperation anxiety which is now improving. My sister picks him up and brings him here, she also feeds him, i play with him and take him for all his walks. 

The last few months he's developed Food Aggression so my sister and her friend try to correct it using the punishment method, basically they give him a slap and say naughty, i do not agree with these methods! Today my sister fed him and he growled because she was too close, so my sister shook a bottle full of stones and shouted naughty at him, this shocked him so he barked and snarled at her then hid behind me. For the rest of the day when she went to pet him he would snarl and growl at her then come to me. Once he even lunged for her but didn't attack, i grabbed him by the scruff and made him lay down, i didn't want him hurting anyone. He's perfectly fine for me to touch him and has never barked or snarled at me. My sister went to work later in the day so i thought i'd take the dog for a walk, his mood was a lot more positive after this but this is very concerning. I've told her not to shout at the dog anymore, violence does not help reduce violence. I for one am all for positive re-enforcement. 

My worry his he might become aggressive, my sister says he barks at strangers when she brings him hear but he doesn't with me when i take him for walks. She spends more time with him yet he seems to be coming to me more. She isn't generally mean to him but uses methods to correct his behaviour that i don't agree with.

Does anyone know any good training methods to help with his food aggression and maybe to get him to trust my sister more, obviously i'll try and get her to stop punishing the dog.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

The way it is being dealt with will not cure his food aggression, but likely make it worse, and also mean it's very likely someone will get bitten. NEVER EVER grab him by the scruff and pin him down, or make him lay down.

You need to ensure the dog has positive associations with people being around his food. Start by putting his bowl down empty, and then putting the food in a bit at a time by hand. Don't attempt to put any more in until he has finished what was already there. Then, when he is totally OK with that, start adding the food whil ehe is still eating. Then put his bowl down with some food in it, and add some more by hand while he is eating.

Once he is totally OK with all of that, you can try showing him a tasty treat in your hand (it has to be something he REALLY likes) and then picking up his bowl, adding the treat to it, and then putting his bowl back down for him. 

If he is uncomfortable with any step, go back a step. Don't tell him of for growling, he is just letting you know he is not happy. If you tell him of, he wil still be unhappy, but unhappy and quiet, and may then simply bite without warning, 

Also, remember that as far as a dog is concened, what is in it's mouth belongs to it. You have ot do swap, not take something, at least not until good training is established. 

A good book for you to read, about resource guarding is 'Mine' by Jean Donaldson.


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## cat001 (Apr 12, 2008)

Like i said, i do not agree with the methods used by my sister and her friend. When i got him to lay down it was becuse i was afraid he would go for her, i didn't do it aggressively, he was quite happy to lay down, i also don't use physical restraint. They have also been feeding him half of the dog food, then the second half but i'll inform them of what you've said. Thankyou so much for your contribution.  I really want him to be a happy dog, not one filled with negative emotion!


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## herekittykitty (Jul 10, 2008)

Bossy Bossy dog. He at 10months is only testing his boundaries.....he doesn't seem to have any. By the time he is mature he WILL have bitten someone, probably a family member...small children are particularly easy to boss around...besides they usually don't see it coming. Stop it fifi will not work, positive reinforcement will not work, You have already let it go too far. Harsh I know. 
Sorry.


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## Gsd_mad (Jan 1, 2008)

We had a German Shepherd, who unfortunately was pts last year....rip Ralph.xx

We took him on as what we thought was a 8 year old, to find out he was really 13, that was disappointing for us...but anyway he was food agressive...and we learnt to stay away whilst he was eating, as at that age, not much could be done....we later found out, he had to fight for his food, when younger, which is why he ended up the way he did!

Has this one had to fight for food, or has he been teased by anyone whilst eating his food?
I personally believe at his young age, it may have gone to far, but something normally enforces this behaviour...
Perhaps you or your sister can contact an Animal Behaviorist, see what they can do, maybe they can help....Good luck.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2008)

Good advice from Jackson, exactly what I would do given the circumstances. Let us know how he progresses.


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## herekittykitty (Jul 10, 2008)

Ya me too.


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

so how many owners ,homes ,training methods ,each day does this dog have?


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## CANDY (Apr 13, 2008)

hi cat101. i am not qualified. but i am training to be a dog behaviourist. 
you are right ! never hit a dog. think of it this way, if someone hit you or shouted at you what you would be like towards them?
first things first. find out what commands the owner is using. he could be confused . be very careful.. if you sister or yourself have children DO NOT llow this dog to run free in your home. he sounds as if he is testing the boundries alot. and if he is entire it would be a good idea to have him castrated. when you give him food, dont give him it without him working for it first. make him sit or lay down for it. this will allow you time to show him who is boss. also a safe method of plcing his food down. you could try giving him a treat . then with the help of someone else holding his collar. place the treat on the floor. only allow him to get it if he stays calm and when told too. praise him . but the best bit of advice would be walk him with a muzzle. and get advice from a trainer. this dog carrys on likethis someone is going to get hurt. has he been brought up with the owner correcting him? socializing him? please be very careful. and do not allow your sister to hit him. as he will react and it will be her who gets hurt.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

hi

I have a 3 year old entire male rottie who food guards. I find the best way of handling this is to give him his food and leave him too it. as long as you dont take the food he has no reason to growl. if there are children around they should understand to leave the dog while its eating or be kept away. 

Many dogs have this problem and can be perfectly well behaved any other time. It is completely natural to protect your food. I no I dont like having people take food of me so I wudnt inflict it on an animal either. You need to make sure they stop punishing him for growling. he will think he is punished for the growling and when he realises this does not work he wont bother growling and will just bite. 

with our rottie his food guarding is not a problem uinless he gets hold of something he shudnt. when he does we tell him to go and get a treat. he understands this and goes and sits next to the treat cupboard waiting. you could try swaping the dogs food for something even better but it must be the best thing ever as far as the dogs concerned. swaping or training something where the dog leaves the bowl may be the best option. but always use praise and reward. using punishment could bring about even worse behaviours

i must ask tho if this is really a problem. is it necessary to get into the dogs food bowl when hes eating. if not just leave him too it. i think if the siituation can be avioded there is no need to do anything. avoiding the situation will ensure neither you, your family or the dog gets upset.


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## cat001 (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi, thanks for all your replies everyone! A little added info...he was castrated a few months ago, from what i undestand Ruben was basically walking around in his own filth and that of his siblings before his owner purchased him, he wasn't in the nicest of conditions so i can only assume the previous owner was a terrible one. He was only about a couple of months old when she got him and he was underweight, i could easily feel his spine, ribs and pelvis, now he is a much more normal weight. We get him to sit before giving him his food, he's prefectly fine with that, but will start growling a little if you go near him whilst he's eating. I wouldn't like to test to see how close i could get. He's generally a nice, care free dog, but has his moments. A behavioural specialist would be a great idea to help with all his problems, hopefully she'll take the idea into consideration.

I really do care about him and just want the best for him so he can live a happy life without worry.


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## badwolf (Jul 17, 2008)

PLease if i could beg you i would , please get your sister to call in a proper qualified dog behaviorist, as they are going to create a nightmare dog .

you have a 10 month old Dobe GSD cross so in just a few weeks you will have a 6 or 7 stone 54 sharpe teeth delivery system with attitude.

if they persist in hitting the dog or using negative methods of training then this dog will end up biting someone and being put to sleep as a dangerous dog. It will not be the dogs fault at all it will be your sisters.

food agression is just a manifestation of agression agression. if its food this week it could be anything else next week.

you need to get to the underlying cause of the agresion, given the sitiuation i would have a good guess that this is fear agression.

the example would be if you went into a pub for the first time and someone punched you in the face, you would be very worried the next time you went into that pub again, and if the same person came near you you would either run away or your guard would be up, if with your guard was up you again got punched you would be learning an important lesson ......this pub is dangerous so what would you do if you were forced to go back into that pub again? you would try to act as tough as possible and on first sight of the bully you would hit them with an ashtray........

you have a nervous dog and you keep on hitting them , or making nastey noises and shouting at them. These actions are not going to calm the dog , they are not going to teach the dog anything other than to escillate the situation into greater violence.

please get a behaviorist in as soon as possible, there are lots of simple things that can be done to turn this dog round your sister just needs to be shown them before it is too late (for the dog or your sister).

It is never to late to correct behavior in a dog if you have time , patience and a positive attidude towards your animal.For the poster who has the Rottie with food issues no offence intended but even at the age of three this could be cured in a few days or weeks and would reduce a huges element of risk from your home.

My current Doberman was a basket case rescue at age 8 months, nervous to the piont of cowering in the corner having been abused by humans and dogs. It takes time but he is now a wonderful family pet and loyal guard dog, he is most days fed by my 5 year old son, who makes him sit whilst he measures out his Kibble, the dog waits in the same sit position whilst he walks the 20 feet to the bowl , puts the food in then walks back to the dog, puases a few seconds more before releasing him to go get his grub.(adult always in the room with them)(dobe has been with us 12 months )
All training is done with love and positive re-inforcement.Hence a three stone 5 yr old is in perfect saftey with a 7 stone Dobe.

will smaller dogs and different breeds owners can get away with sloppy training and poor behavior, with Dobes GSDs and Rottie types we have to be extra careful not to further ruin these breeds reputations with another accident.

all in my humble opinion.

Badwolf


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Im sorry if I came across as saying that this wasnt a problem. It can be but not all cases are as bad as they seem. i was just pointing out that some things can be managed easily. 
My rottie has no other aggressive tendancies and when his bowl of food is put down, which he sits for patiently, it lasts a meer matter of minuits. it causes no harm for me to leave him be. As there are no small children I do not see the point in correcting something that really isnt the issue. the swapping technique with anything else he gets hold of works just fine. there is no need to physically remove things from the dog. he is willing to wait for a treat next to the cupboard while i collect the object, which he can see me do, he is happy and so are we so there is no problem. Why change the dogs behaviour when there are other ways of doing it.

I was meerly pointing out that the problem isnt always as bad as some people think. When the kids were younger I wouldnt of alowed this problem and as a behaviourist myself I have fixed the issue in previous dogs for myself and others. I just wanted to point out that in some cases there is no need to change anything. unless your planning on taking the food bowl from the dog there is no issue unless there are young children in which case its different. In which case i would recomend that a leave or drop should be taught.


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## badwolf (Jul 17, 2008)

but to solve a food /toy issue is just a case of making the approach to the 'possesion' a good outcome.

for the food issue, its a case of adding more to the bowl, or approaching with favorite food treat to show that you only bring good things to the bowl and that far from taking food away you are actually going to supliment the food with something even tastier.

perhaps i was also lucky that to bring my Dobe out of his shell i hand fed him scrammbled eggs for the first 3 days,again making me as the bringer of food not the taker away of food.

that is of course on the assumption that the protection of the food is a fear issue or a learnt issue over got to keep the food or someone else eats it /takes it away.

the food agresion could in some cases be a dominance issue, in which case different approaches would be needed.

best wishes

Badwolf


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## Richard978 (Jul 20, 2008)

I think food aggression is probably the most difficult to resolve and in the past I've tendered to simply remove the food at the first sign of it and reward when when they are passive. The problem is when it is so bad that you simply can't remove the food without being attacked.

A dog is a pack animal but aggression is not acceptable in the home for obvious reasons. I've kept ex police dogs and would never accept aggression it was always zero tolerance. The dogs should look to you as you are the pack leader. A dog that barks at a welcome guest should be removed from the room and ignored, after 10 mins bring he dog back into the room and remove again if bad and continue to do so until be behaves. This might take some time.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Im sorry but again I must disagree (i do this often) i do not agree with the pack theory. you do not have to be the "pack leader" dogs know the difference between people and dogs and that is reflected in the way they act and communicate with us. I dont think dominance is the issue here. Dogs are not aggressive to each other to gain status. Dogs int he wild are scavangers. they accept other dogs and interact with them but they dont often live together. Dominance came from people watching unnatural wolf packs years ago. wolf packs naturally are the parents and offspring there is no aggression their either. the other dogs do not try and take over the leaders as they would be mating with their parents leading to insest (nature doesnt want this) when the wolves are at breeding age they leave to find a mate and start their own pack. 

As iv said before you just need a good behaviourist. if you let me know what area you are in ill see if i know anyone int hat area for you or ill come myself if possible

all the best


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## badwolf (Jul 17, 2008)

Dog are Pack animals, heck come to a big city and see the packs of strays that form each summer

weather you subscribe to pack theory of not a dog will absolutly try to take a dominant position over you if allowed ,and if you work hard and keep them in place it only takes a few slip ups or for you to have an off day and the dog will attempt to re-assert itself over you

why else is it that they always seem to play up worse when you are ill or not having a good day yourself?

AIMHO

badwolf


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

well im sorry buti know that when im ill or am having a bad day all my dogs have actually been very good about it, keeping out the wy or providing me with cuddles when i need one. I have met many dogs in my time and i have yet to see one that trys to dominate. packs hierarchies are formed through respect and submission. Anyone who has watched a natural pack of any canids will know that.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I think this reiterates the importance of early training when puppies.

Personally, I always do a little hand feeding with our puppies. It gets them used to hands in bowls which should prevent food aggression, and my philosophy is that prevention is always better than cure.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

badwolf said:


> why else is it that they always seem to play up worse when you are ill or not having a good day yourself?


My dogs have a lazy day if I'm ill, they've never played up when I've been ill or stressed out. 

So you think dogs are incapable of telling the difference between their own kind and humans?


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## badwolf (Jul 17, 2008)

i would say that dogs think humans are very strange dogs

just as humans try to anthropomorphise dogs


dogs just like humans can be dominant or submissive, why else will one dog run up and roll on its back to greet you? yet another remain aloof ?

some dogs are more dominant in thier character than others (just like humans)

whether you believe in pack theory or not, some dogs do or will attempt to 'rule the roost' and can make thier owners lives very difficult.


badwolf


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Well. I can see we are never going to agree so ill leave it at this. Yes it is their personalities but i still dont see them as being dominant as that makes it sound like they are forcing themselves above everyone else. I think its more just a pushy characteristic, misscommunication by both species, or some times its a learned behaviour and the dog has been brought up thinking that behaviour is acceptable. Dominance is often assumed for a lot of behaviours, like sitting on the sofa, not being obediant and walking through doors first. All of which is a load of bull. The sofa is comfier then the floor, the dogs never been trained properly and doesnt understand the commands, and the dogs excited and wants to get outside. I dont see any truly dominant behaviours.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

badwolf said:


> some dogs are more dominant in thier character than others (just like humans)


Yes but you will find that dominant dogs are usually the last out the door and the happiest to lay on the floor rather than the sofa. Dominant dogs are cool and collected in almost any situation. What use would a loopy, crazy dog be as a pack leader in the wild?

It's very easy to say a poorly trained, misbehaved dog is dominant but it's not the case. Dogs don't refuse to get off the sofa because they are dominant; in my experience they usually see the sofa as a safe elevated area where they they are comfortable, they usually don't want to get down because they fear something and the aggresion shown is fear aggression. It is the most insecure dogs not dominant dogs that show behaviours commonly mistaken as dominance.

Dogs do not try to "rule the roost" but they are opportunists by nature and if allowed to take the pee they will do. It's poor training on the owners behalf not dominance.

If you really look at pack theory it's all about training (not dominance) but in a negative way, surely it's easier and kinder to train using positive methods?

Dogs with food aggression don't know their boundaries because they have not been trained well and that is nothing to do with dominance.

In summary pack theory is a load of rubbish in my opinion; it's an easy answer to problems that if you really think about it makes no sense at all. Dogs are not that stupid that they think we are "very strange dogs".


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## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

Hi , i have two GSDS neither have food aggression, with the family or each other, i can take food out of bowl add food take something they should not have no growls nothing, they will leave when told to, and wait till i say they can have meals, the only thing that bothers my two are toys they will not share those, but everything else they are great on, i did the food thing from first having them , as for a pack well i have to say they run like a pack when out together and scrap to who gets out of door first thats the only prob we have with them , both are entire males and the same age, i have just written this simple as im not into all this teckie stuff


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2008)

jeanie said:


> as for a pack well i have to say they run like a pack when out together and scrap to who gets out of door first thats the only prob we have with them , both are entire males and the same age, i have just written this simple as im not into all this teckie stuff


There's no doubt dogs are pack animals but what I'm saying is we as humans are not part of their pack and never will be. Dogs are not dominant over humans but given the chance they will take advantage of situations, especially if they are poorly trained and/or don't know their boundaries.


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## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

I agree with you Alan , i dont think they see us as pack leaders at all but we are of a higher form so able to train them, i think if left to their own devices they will just do as nature tells them , So good training is the key to most problems , just my opinion . and im am far from perfect at training but doing my best, lol.


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## fun4fido (Jul 22, 2008)

Hi,

Is this dog a rescue dog? I ask because this can be typical behaviour of a rescue dog.

I would strongly suggest you approach this situation by doing what is called Power Gesture Eating.

Whoever feeds the dog should do this but ideally it should be the owner, the key is the dog should see it's owner as a giver of food and have a positive association with this.

Also the dog should be fed at the same times each day, and in the same place.

How to do

Bring the dog to the feeding area. Before preparing the dogs food the feeder should prepare a little snack, this can be nuts, and apple, just something small. Put this snack on a plate on a raised surface like a countertop.

Place the dogs bowl next to the plate with the snack. Prepare his food in the normal way and make sure he is watching, but instead of putting all his food in one bowl divide it in to four bowls.

The feeder/owner should eat their snack in full view of the dog. This should be done calmly, with confidence and with no verbal/eye contact with the dog, in fact you need to be almost aloof.

Once you have finished your snack, calmly put ONE of the dogs bowls down on the floor, again no verbal/eye contact, and just step away and let him eat. (IMPORTANT: AS YOU STEP AWAY TAKE THE OTHER THREE BOWLS WITH YOU)

Wait until the dog has completely finished his first bowl and then place the second bowl down in a different area of the room. Wait by the bowl until the dog comes to it, then step away again.

Repeat this with the other two bowls, making sure to put them down in a different area of the room each time, and make sure the dog sees you do this.

Do this everyday for a few weeks and let me know how you get on.

In general I would also say that this dog has no leadership, stability or structure in his life at present. These areas will need to be addressed and worked on.

Would you agree?

I must ask you to make sure that the current methods of correction be stopped immediately, as they are doing more harm than good.

Please do let me know how it goes.

Angela


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Having read the original post and some of the replies... 

I am thinking that isn't this an issue for the owner to sort out.. and maybe there are too many people trying to be the boss of this dog, therefor confusing him. And I would be very careful with him.. If he were to bite you who would you blame?

I would possibly gate a dog crate for him and feed him in there so he feels that he has his own space.. I wouldn't aggravate the problem any further.. We all know how we feel when someone reprimands us.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2008)

When we got Shila she was 4 months old and a big girl Soon after getting her I noticed that if one of the cats walked past her while she was eating she would growl and snap, I know my dog 100% and she was doing this because she is greedy BUT I have kev's grandkids here so if she could do it to a cat she could do it to a 2 year old.
She is not dominant over the cats at all, it was just greed but i could see some aggression there.
I tried a lot of things to get her to stop doing this and in the end rightly or wrongly every time she growled at the cats over food it was taken off her and given to the cats. I never uttered a single word while doing this i even did it with her bones as she was a cow with them aswell and within 10 days she stopped it completely.
She still try's it on with Isis while they are both eating a bone and sometimes even at tea time BUT I do supervise just until she understands the rules still apply with Isis aswell.
I really hope you get your sisters dog sorted hun but IMO he sounds better off with you x


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## 6660carrie (Jul 28, 2008)

Sounds to me like the dog has more respect for you than its owners! Couldn't you take in on full time so he has some routine and doesn't get moved from pillar to post?

have you tried a food orietated toy like a kong? My dog loves it, keeps bringing it to me to stuff with crumpets and then we play with it together. I think the hand feeding is a good idea so he associates you with food. Sounds like the owners / sister has made this problem much worse. sorry


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