# Guilty until proven innocent



## rona

Landowners face losing licences even if not convicted of bird of prey poisonings - Telegraph


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## noushka05

rona said:


> Landowners face losing licences even if not convicted of bird of prey poisonings - Telegraph


Good!

What do you suggest? just let them carry on killing with impunity?  Catching a gamekeeper red handed is nigh on impossible as well you know Rona. Even GWCT have now finally admitted that gamekeepers are responsible for the demise of the hen harrier - do you seriously believe they aren't also persecuting other raptor species???? Infact we need to go even further than this where grouse moors are concerned they must be banned full stop! The shooting community has failed to put its house in order & damage they cause to the environment needs addressing.

Cairngorms National Park Authority wants ?action? against raptor persecution | Raptor Persecution Scotland

Yet another successfully fledged hen harrier has 'disappeared' on North Yorkshire moorland. Hen harrier Sid ?disappears? in North Yorkshire | Raptor Persecution Scotland

Good piece by Mark Avery today on defra response to GWCT's epetition The non-joint non-plan is a non-joint non-plan says Defra | Mark Avery

Even this government wouldn't be foolish enough to position itself, after buzzard-gate and badger-gate, as being on the side of the grouse shooter instead of the Hen Harrier this close to a general election. Maybe after the general election…

_The shooting community, and nothing else, has reduced the Hen Harrier population to its parlous position through illegal acts - at a time when grouse bags are booming. The choice is stark - lots of grouse shooting and very few Hen Harriers or very little grouse shooting and rather more Hen Harriers?

And it isn't just about Hen Harriers ( or Peregrines, or Goshawks or Short-eared Owls), or Stoats, or Mountain Hares, it's also about climate change, flood risk and water bills, it's about blanket bogs and what sort of uplands we want.

Society as a whole needs a plan, preferably a joint plan, for the future of the uplands, and when you take that wider longer perspective there is no place for driven grouse shooting and its ecosystem disservices and its assault on wildlife. So please sign this e-petition to ban driven grouse shooting._


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## lilythepink

It will be interesting to see if this actually happens.

There is no way of telling who has set a trap on land...legal or otherwise. We have a lot of poaching in my area and I know that these illegals will be setting traps wherever they feel like it.

When we had sheep, we had problems with crows and it is a sad sight to see a young lamb without its eyes but still alive.We never set traps though.

Its impossible to eradicate all trapping over wild land cos the areas are too vast and too isolated.

I can't really see this happening here though....money talks.


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## rona

lilythepink said:


> It will be interesting to see if this actually happens.
> 
> There is no way of telling who has set a trap on land...legal or otherwise. We have a lot of poaching in my area and I know that these illegals will be setting traps wherever they feel like it.
> 
> When we had sheep, we had problems with crows and it is a sad sight to see a young lamb without its eyes but still alive.We never set traps though.
> 
> Its impossible to eradicate all trapping over wild land cos the areas are too vast and too isolated.
> 
> I can't really see this happening here though....money talks.


According to figures, poaching accounts for virtually 50% of wildlife crime. Figures from NWCU

Nothing to do with money, it's the principle


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## noushka05

rona said:


> According to figures, poaching accounts for virtually 50% of wildlife crime. Figures from NWCU
> 
> Nothing to do with money, it's the principle


The greatest threat to many of our birds of prey species IS - gamekeepers!

Poachers are just a different set of revolting wildlife criminals.

Rona, remember how for years you played down the roll of gamekeepers in the demise of the hen harrier? well now the shooting industry itself admits they are solely responsible for pushing the species to the very brink of extinction. Just think if conservationists & birders had been listened to & they had taken tough action on these criminals before they exterminated hen harrier down to just a couple of pairs? We might now be seeing them thriving in our uplands once again. We simply don't have time to wait, persecution is on the rise - something has to be done NOW.

I have ZERO sympathy for ANY set of wildlife criminals & welcome anything that might reverse this shameful slaughter of our national heritage.

The shooting industry has proved it cannot/will not police its own - the simple fact is they cannot be trusted with our wildlife.

,

.

.
.

.


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## rona

The right to a fair trial and no punishment without law - you are innocent until proven guilty. If accused of a crime, you have the right to hear the evidence against you, in a court of law;

https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/what-are-human-rights/human-rights-act


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## noushka05

rona said:


> The right to a fair trial and no punishment without law - you are innocent until proven guilty. If accused of a crime, you have the right to hear the evidence against you, in a court of law;
> 
> https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/what-are-human-rights/human-rights-act


That's it then, we have little chance of catching these criminals red handed, so no chance of saving the hen harrier from extinction - or stopping them persecuting our peregrine, spars, buzzard, short eared owl, red kite, goshawk.

The only other option, if you want to see persecution by gamekeepers end that is, is an out right ban on grouse moors & all commercial shooting estates then?

Personally I think its utterly barbaric that they are allowed to shoot or trap crows & pigeons at will anyway! They should be changing the licencing to separate applications NOW.

_Landowners face losing their licences to shoot or trap crows and pigeons if they are merely suspected of illegally killing birds of prey, under draconian plans unveiled by Scottish ministers.

Without one, landowners would have to go through the more onerous process of making separate applications to control particular species. _

Aw poor things, what a hardship

.


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## Burrowzig

rona said:


> According to figures, poaching accounts for virtually 50% of wildlife crime. Figures from NWCU
> 
> Nothing to do with money, it's the principle


Birds of prey aren't being poisoned by poachers, though. What would be the point? Poaching is for selling or eating. Corpses of birds of prey clearly have not been sold or eaten.


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## rona

Burrowzig said:


> Birds of prey aren't being poisoned by poachers, though. What would be the point? Poaching is for selling or eating. Corpses of birds of prey clearly have not been sold or eaten.


Taxidermy.

If they can make money out of it they will


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## rona

"One might normally associate wildlife smuggling in Britain as an "import" situation rather than "export". Britain, however, is host to many rare species of animals and birds, and while no doubt many live specimens are smuggled out, many more leave our shores as dead specimens for taxidermy."

Police Wildlife Liaison Work

The RSPB: News: Sunderland pigeon fancier held illegal poison

Someone tried to kill these Peregrine Falcons by feeding them poisoned pigeons


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## rona

Easy targets these land owners/ gamekeepers


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## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> I have ZERO sympathy


Tell that to anyone falsely accused of a crime. According to the "guilty until proven innocent" philosophy I could accuse you of anything and you would have to prove you didn't do it. Wouldn't take a lot to find out when you don't have an alibi for something. How do you prove yourself innocent in the cases where poison has been placed I wonder. What's to stop an "animal fundamentalist" from laying poison themselves down and blaming a gamekeeper? How would you then prevent a miscarriage of justice?

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/documents/humanrights/hrr_article_6.pdf point 2 says it clearly.

http://projects.essex.ac.uk/ehrr/V9N1/CHADAMBUKA.pdf is also worthy of note as it demonstrates recognition of the need to be able to clear your name due to the stresses any court process involves, not just to the victim of a false allegation but to others around them.


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## noushka05

rona said:


> Taxidermy.
> 
> If they can make money out of it they will


The LAST 4 hen harrier nests didn't needed 24 hour monitoring because of the danger posed by taxidermists



rona said:


> "One might normally associate wildlife smuggling in Britain as an "import" situation rather than "export". Britain, however, is host to many rare species of animals and birds, and while no doubt many live specimens are smuggled out, many more leave our shores as dead specimens for taxidermy."
> 
> Police Wildlife Liaison Work
> 
> The RSPB: News: Sunderland pigeon fancier held illegal poison
> 
> Someone tried to kill these Peregrine Falcons by feeding them poisoned pigeons


More of your classic cherrypicking lol

Heres an interesting FACT for you to ignore Rona- FOUR pairs of hen harrier in the whole of England in 2014 solely due to illegal persecution by gamekeepers on grouse moors

Non of your sad faces for these birds??





rona said:


> Easy targets these land owners/ gamekeepers


Wow what a dreadful punishment, they wouldnt be allowed free reign to kill crows & pigeons  As an animal lover I don't believe anyone should be allowed to randomly persecute OUR wildlife.

*Landowners face losing their licences to shoot or trap crows and pigeons if they are merely suspected of illegally killing birds of prey, under draconian plans unveiled by Scottish ministers*

Putting aside blame the blame game just for the moment, do you think its right gamekeepers should be allowed to kill crows & pigeons (and practically anything else that moves!) at will Rona? Personally I find it obscene.



Goblin said:


> Tell that to anyone falsely accused of a crime. According to the "guilty until proven innocent" philosophy I could accuse you of anything and you would have to prove you didn't do it. Wouldn't take a lot to find out when you don't have an alibi for something. How do you prove yourself innocent in the cases where poison has been placed I wonder. What's to stop an "animal fundamentalist" from laying poison themselves down and blaming a gamekeeper? How would you then prevent a miscarriage of justice?
> 
> http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/documents/humanrights/hrr_article_6.pdf point 2 says it clearly.
> 
> http://projects.essex.ac.uk/ehrr/V9N1/CHADAMBUKA.pdf is also worthy of note as it demonstrates recognition of the need to be able to clear your name due to the stresses any court process involves, not just to the victim of a false allegation but to others around them.


Whats to stop Animal fundamentalists? talk about clutching at straws hahaaa.

Don't you think shooting estates should be licenced Goblin? Licensing doesn't go far enough where grouse moors are concerned, they MUST be banned if we want to save the hen harrier from extinction. Personally I think ALL hunting for 'sport' should be banned. If people hunt to eat or to survive, fine. But keeping beautiful sentient wild birds in battery conditions for example, then releasing millions of them just to use them as living targets is plain sick. ALL animals deserve some respect and there is no respect feeding semi-tame animals and then shooting them for fun to count the number of bodies. To kill a beautiful animal for some perverse cruel pleasure is totally beyond me.


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## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> Whats to stop Animal fundamentalists? talk about clutching at straws hahaaa.


Really, you deny animal rights extremists exist and wouldn't abuse the system "for the good of animals"? Animal extremism isn't something funny, neither is being falsely accused of a crime. Maybe you think so but I would guarantee you wouldn't if it happened to you.



> Don't you think shooting estates should be licenced Goblin? Licensing doesn't go far enough where grouse moors are concerned, they MUST be banned if we want to save the hen harrier from extinction.


That's your agenda, not the topic of this thread which is a dangerous precedent, against basic human rights and you are simply, as always avoiding the thread topic. Simple question, which I doubt you will answer.. Are human rights necessary?


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## Burrowzig

rona said:


> Taxidermy.
> 
> If they can make money out of it they will


If it were for taxidermy, the rotting corpses that have been tested for poison wouldn't be left in the fields, and no-one would ever know they had been poisoned in the first place. Has even happened to barn owls round here.


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## rona

Burrowzig said:


> If it were for taxidermy, the rotting corpses that have been tested for poison wouldn't be left in the fields, and no-one would ever know they had been poisoned in the first place. Has even happened to barn owls round here.


If you watch birds of prey rearing their young, you could actually poison several at once when they are mature. Missing the odd body wouldn't really hit their pockets much as a bird of prey could sell for £1500-£3000.

The Barn Owls could easily be a sloppy pest controller
The Barn Owl Trust - The problem with rat poison

I know that *some* landowners and *some* gamekeepers are guilty but unless they are caught in the act, there are so many other possibilities of who it could be.

No one should be found guilty without proof 

Also, I've never come across a countryman of any description that didn't want Barn Owls on their land


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## noushka05

Goblin said:


> Really, you deny animal rights extremists exist and wouldn't abuse the system "for the good of animals"? Animal extremism isn't something funny, neither is being falsely accused of a crime. Maybe you think so but I would guarantee you wouldn't if it happened to you.
> 
> That's your agenda, not the topic of this thread which is a dangerous precedent, against basic human rights and you are simply, as always avoiding the thread topic. Simple question, which I doubt you will answer.. Are human rights necessary?


They're not very good 'animal rights' extremists if they go around killing 'animals' are they? lmao So any references to back up your wild theory they could be responsible for killing raptors would be much appreciated, one case will do? I can references you a countless number of cases to gamekeepers convicted of wildlife crimes. Only the other day, there was the first ever prosecution using the vicarious liability legislation. This means not only did the gamekeeper get prosecuted but the landowner also. Do you think this breaches the landowners human rights? Though the penalty for the landowner was paltry, it was a historic achievement all the same & a 2nd vicarious liability case is in the pipeline.

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.w...viction-in-landmark-vicarious-liability-case/

Herein lies the problem - catching a gamekeeper red handed is nigh on impossible, even so there have still been 28 convictions in the last 3 years, so hardly the rare event some would have us believe The shooting set are killing raptors on an industrial scale. Any raptor on a driven grouse moor, unless its a kestrel or a merlin, is on borrowed time, and that is a scientifically proven FACT. Gamekeepers are the most prolific wildlife criminals in our countryside.



rona said:


> If you watch birds of prey rearing their young, you could actually poison several at once when they are mature. Missing the odd body wouldn't really hit their pockets much as a bird of prey could sell for £1500-£3000.
> 
> The Barn Owls could easily be a sloppy pest controller
> The Barn Owl Trust - The problem with rat poison
> 
> I know that *some* landowners and *some* gamekeepers are guilty but unless they are caught in the act, there are so many other possibilities of who it could be.
> 
> No one should be found guilty without proof
> 
> Also, I've never come across a countryman of any description that didn't want Barn Owls on their land


The hen harrier is on the brink of extinction - Just LOOK what *some* gamekeepers & *some* landowners have achieved Rona!


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## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> They're not very good 'animal rights' extremists if they go around killing 'animals' are they?


Waffle on your subject.. not answering any question about the topic in question even when put simply. You are obviously willing to totally ignore human rights so long as it fits your agenda. Says a lot I think.


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## noushka05

Goblin said:


> Waffle on your subject.. not answering any question about the topic in question even when put simply. You are obviously willing to totally ignore human rights so long as it fits your agenda. Says a lot I think.


Yes, I do believe in human rights - If a gamekeeper/landowner feels their human rights have been breached they should definitely have the right to challenge it in court - just the same as anyone else.

And any government that seeks to repeal our human rights legislation is not a government to be trusted.

Does that answer your question? Will you now answer my questions?

ETA & please do tell me what my agenda is? just so I know lol


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## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> Yes, I do believe in human rights


However you support the idea of prosecuting without the premise of innocent until proven guilty. Your answer doesn't match your argument. You don't ignore human rights when they are inconvenient.

As for your argument and questions.. No idea about gamekeepers. I'm not involved, nor do I have unbiased information. However even the argument you put forward is flawed. It's difficult to prove but has been in the past so we should abandon human rights for these people, even if innocent


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## noushka05

Goblin said:


> However you support the idea of prosecuting without the premise of innocent until proven guilty. Your answer doesn't match your argument. You don't ignore human rights when they are inconvenient.
> 
> As for your argument and questions.. No idea about gamekeepers. I'm not involved, nor do I have unbiased information. However even the argument you put forward is flawed. It's difficult to prove but has been in the past so we should abandon human rights for these people, even if innocent


There is a wealth of sound evidence PROVING gamekeepers are killing raptors , catching them red handed is the problem, so this is why I would support any legislation that might save raptors from persecution. It is then up to the courts to decide if any human rights have been breached, NOT ME. And I believe EVERYONE has the right to challenge a decision they feel is an infringement on their rights. So why is my argument flawed?? I can provide references PROVING gamekeepers on grouse moors are SOLELY responsible for reducing our hen harriers to a handful of birds. Even the shooting industry has been forced to admit they are responsible for their demise. Do we just leave these wildlife criminals to wipe out the last four remaining pairs??!! The best scenario would be an outright ban on driven grouse moors.

,


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## Goblin

noushka05 said:


> So why is my argument flawed?? I can provide references PROVING gamekeepers on grouse moors are SOLELY responsible for reducing our hen harriers to a handful of birds.


Yet you are saying to abandon human rights despite being able to prove the fact?


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## noushka05

Goblin said:


> Yet you are saying to abandon human rights despite being able to prove the fact?


No i'm not lol


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## chillminx

General Licences, to shoot or trap crows and pigeons, granted to landowners are a privilege not a _right_. It is therefore justifiable and perfectly legal to remove that privilege if there is a suspicion the rules are not being strictly adhered to. To remove something granted as a privilege is not abusing anyone's Human Rights.

The fact gamekeepers may lose their jobs and homes as a result of the landowner losing their Licence is economic fallout, the same kind of fallout suffered by many people when jobs are lost due to a downturn in the local or national economy.

No-one has a right to work, or a right to a home, in a capitalist economy.


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## Goblin

chillminx said:


> No-one has a right to work, or a right to a home, in a capitalist economy.


So you approve of anyone kicking you out of a job on hearsay? If anything human rights need to be upheld even more strongly in a capitalist economy, to prevent slave labour as one simple example.


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## chillminx

Goblin said:


> So you approve of anyone kicking you out of a job on hearsay? If anything human rights need to be upheld even more strongly in a capitalist economy, to prevent slave labour as one simple example.


The question of whether I approve or disapprove is immaterial. The fact is that is how a capitalist economy works i.e. on the basis of market forces. If you want a society where everyone has a right to work, a right to a home, and a right not to be exploited for their labour, then you need to be living in a socialist society. No other system is fool proof, certainly not a capitalist system.

As I explained, the Licence is granted as a privilege, with certain terms and conditions that must be adhered to. If there are any grounds for suspecting the landowner is not adhering to them, then there is legal justification for suspending (or withdrawing) the Licence pending investigation by the organisation which grants the Licences.

I don't know what you mean by "hearsay" in this context As I understand it there are witnesses to the killings who have had the courage to 'blow the whistle'. That is not hearsay.

The gamekeeper is employed by the landowner, the landowner hires and fires his staff, not the State. If anyone should be responsible for protecting the gamekeeper from loss of home and livelihood it should be the landowner who has allegedly broken the terms of the Licence.


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## rona

Proves my point
http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/ou...ncer/archive/2017/01/13/highlander-lives.aspx

I am utterly astonished and elated to report that Highlander, a female hen harrier which fledged from United Utilities estate in the Forest of Bowland in 2014, and who suddenly and unexpectedly went missing in County Durham in April 2016, has possibly been found alive!


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## chillminx

It is brilliant news!  

I don't think it exactly 'proves your point' - more like "an exception to the rule" seeing as so many tagged hen harriers have disappeared without trace, and whistle blowers have spoken up re the involvement of land owners and game keepers involved the disappearances.


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## rona

chillminx said:


> It is brilliant news!
> 
> I don't think it exactly 'proves your point' - more like "an exception to the rule" seeing as so many tagged hen harriers have disappeared without trace, and whistle blowers have spoken up re the involvement of land owners and game keepers involved the disappearances.


Another turned up 100s of miles away too, and yet another was found to have died of natural causes. All had been blamed on gamekeepers


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## chillminx

Three exceptions to the rule then !


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## rona

chillminx said:


> Three exceptions to the rule then !


And how many have been *proven *to have been persecuted*? 
*
That's not the point anyway, those people would have been penalised for something never ever did and with no real proof


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## rona

rona said:


> And how many have been *proven *to have been persecuted*? *


i can find up to 2013 and no one had been convicted for persecution of any tagged bird


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## CuddleMonster

It's a daft idea - anyone who wanted to cause problems for a landowner or gamekeeper could just poison a bird and chuck it onto their land.

And if you think it doesn't happen...I used to live on a farm which didn't have any public rights of way on it, but I had permission from the farmer to walk the land. In ONE summer, I found three buzzards and two foxes, all dead from poison in the same two fields (fields bordered by another farmer's land and by a main road with lots of convenient stopping places) The farmer was really upset as he loved seeing the buzzards and even though he wasn't keen on foxes because they took the chickens, he didn't believe any animal should be poisoned. Police weren't interested in investigating, and we never did find out who was responsible, yet under these new 'laws' he would be blamed because it was his land.


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## rona

I've found dead birds of prey several times on National trust ground.


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## noushka05

There is a 6% failure of satellite tags.

*Satellite tags of this type are designed to last for up to 5 years (though sadly, hen harriers rarely seem to live that long). Highlander's tag was two years old and is the only confirmed failure out of 23 RSPB-monitored hen harrier satellite tags deployed in the last 3 years (ie a 4% failure rate). Researchers at the Dutch Montagu's Harrier Foundation have previously recorded a 6% technical failure rate (out of 67 birds tagged) using exactly the same make and model of satellite tag, with all failures occurring on tags older than at least one year. This puts the failure of this bird's tag well within the realms of expected normality, so I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that something like this would happen sooner or later.*

There is NO ambiguity that the reason hen harriers are on the brink of extinction here, is down to persecution by grouse moors. We have already established this by_ experts_ *you* yourself validated Rona. Grouse moors *are* sink holes, not only for our stunning, hen harrier, but for most species of birds of prey. Its awesome news if indeed Highlander has been found alive & well, sadly if she returns to a grouse moor her days are numbered.

The reaction from the dishonest shooting fraternity is so predictable though.

The fantastic Raptor Persecution blog >>

*Raptor Persecution*‏@*RaptorPersScot* 17h17 hours ago

Satellite-tagged hen harrier 'Highlander' is probably still alive. Cue hysteria from grouse shooting industry https://raptorpersecutionscotland.w...n-harrier-highlander-is-probably-still-alive/

Last spring, a satellite-tagged hen harrier called 'Highlander' joined the ranks of the 'missing' as her sat tag suddenly stopped transmitting over a grouse moor in Co Durham (see here).

When you consider the extraordinarily high disappearance rate of young, tagged hen harriers (78.7% as of 2014) and the absence of breeding hen
harriers on almost every driven grouse moor in the country, it wasn't unreasonable to conclude that she'd been illegally killed.

But in Highlander's case, she just may be the one who got away and against all the odds, survived past her second birthday. According to the RSPB's Skydancer blog (see here), Highlander may still be alive and the cause of her 'disappearance' is likely to have been a satellite tag technical failure.

Predictably, the usual suspects from within the grouse shooting industry have already taken to social media to use today's news as an opportunity to pretend that hen harriers are not routinely killed on grouse moors but that the many hen harriers that have been reported as 'missing' over the last ten years have suffered from satellite tag technical faults. That may be plausible for one or two 'missing' birds, but unfortunately for the grouse shooting propagandists, these technical failures don't happen very often, and nor do sat tag technical failures explain the absence of breeding hen harriers on most driven grouse moors.

We know from a study of Montagu's harriers, fitted with exactly the same type of tag as the UK hen harriers, that technical failures amount to just 6% (_n_ = 67 tagged birds). Highlander's failed tag is the first technical failure the RSPB has recorded (_n_ = 23 tagged birds) so this failure rate is well within the expected range.

Satellite tag failure rates will be further scrutinised in the forthcoming review of satellite tag data from hen harriers, golden eagles and red kites in Scotland, which is expected to be completed by March. We know the grouse shooting industry is extremely twitchy about this review because they know as well as we do what the results are likely to show, and it won't be good news for them. So it's unsurprising that they'll use every opportunity presented in the run up to that report being published to discredit the data, discredit the researchers who fit the tags, and discredit the tag-fitting techniques. Interestingly, you don't see them trying to discredit the data, researchers or techniques associated with the satellite-tracking of woodcock (GWCT) or cuckoos (BTO) - it's only the upland raptors. Funny that.

What a survivor Highlander is, makes me feel so ashamed of my species when I read this.http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/ou...ncer/archive/2017/01/13/highlander-lives.aspx

*Highlander lives?*
 Blánaid Denman 
13 Jan 2017 7:00 AM


Comments 1
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It's a rare delight in the world of hen harriers to be able to start the New Year with some good news, but I am utterly astonished and elated to report that Highlander, a female hen harrier which fledged from United Utilities estate in the Forest of Bowland in 2014, and who suddenly and unexpectedly went missing in County Durham in April 2016, has possibly been found alive!



_Highlander and her sibling, Sky, just after having their satellite tags fitted, in Bowland, 2014. (Image: Jude Lane)_

To most people, Highlander is the eponymous lead character, played by Christopher Lambert, in the classic 1986 British-American action fantasy film, about an immortal Scottish swordsman on an epic quest. As our own Highlander was "adopted" by children from the local Brennand's Endowed Primary School however, I'm going to hazard a guess it's unlikely they had that particular kilt-wearing protagonist in mind when choosing a name for our young female. Nevertheless, I can't think of a more fitting name for a bird that apparently against all expectation, seems to keep surviving.



_The classic 1986 film, Highlander._

The full story of Highlander's tenacity can be read in the blog we posted in early June 2016, around the time of her disappearance. However, here's a quick reminder of this exceptional bird's life story:

*June 2014*: Four hen harrier chicks from two nests are ringed and satellite tagged by Natural England in partnership with RSPB on the United Utilities estate in the Forest of Bowland. Two of these are "adopted" by children from Brennand's Endowed Primary School, who name the young females, Sky and Highlander.

*September 2014*: Highlander starts to explore areas to the south of Bowland but her sister, Sky, and a tagged female from the other Bowland nest, Hope, suddenly disappear within days of each other in suspicious circumstances. They are never found.

*Winter 2014/15*: Highlander spends the winter months favouring a few particular roost sites within 30 miles of Bowland.

*March 2015*: She returns to Bowland

*April 2015*: She pairs up with a third-year adult male and they start the process of nest-building and egg-laying.

*May 2015:* Highlander's mate is the first of four adult males with active nests in Bowland to inexplicably and suspiciously vanish while hunting away from their nest sites that summer. Having been forced to abandon her nest to hunt, Highlander quickly pairs with a young male and resumes her nesting attempt, laying a record total of nine eggs between both mates. Highlander's new mate is discovered to be polygamous and, struggling to provide for his two females, he abandons Highlander to fend for herself, resulting in the failure of her nest.

*June 2015: *She leaves Bowland for southern Scotland but returns a week later and pairs with a third male.

*July 2015*: Highlander's first chick hatches but just five days later, the nest is predated and all young are lost.

*Autumn/Winter 2015/16*: She returns to her favoured roosts from the previous winter.

*March 2016*: Highlander returns to Bowland for several short visits but doesn't stay.

*April 2016*: Highlander's tag stops transmitting. Her last known location is in County Durham.



_Highlander's second nesting attempt with an incredible 9 eggs. (Image: James Bray, 2015)_

Here's what we said about her disappearance at the time:

_Sister to a missing sibling, partner to a missing mate, and three nest failures in the space of two months, our Highlander endured through it all. However, on 16 April 2016, Highlander's satellite tag suddenly and unaccountably ceased transmission. The last signal received placed her in County Durham but it's possible she may have moved on from the area before going offline. We don't know what caused the satellite tag to fail but transmission up to that point had been strong and there was no indication of battery failure. She has not been found._

...until now (maybe)!

In October 2016, an unknown satellite-tagged hen harrier was seen at roost near to where Highlander spent her two previous winters. Initially it had us stumped - neither we, nor Stephen Murphy at Natural England, had birds registering as being in that area and the BTO confirmed that no one else has been fitting tags to hen harriers in the UK. We contacted the only other hen harrier tracking projects in Europe, one in Ireland and one in Germany, but neither of them could claim this mystery bird either. With the dedicated help of local raptor workers, we've since confirmed the bird as an adult female, with no colour rings, a single BTO ring on the correct leg, but the real clincher... a tag aerial which bends very slightly to the left - all of which match with this bird being Highlander.

Of course with no signal coming from the tag, it's impossible to be 100% certain of the ID but the facts available are certainly very suggestive that this is more than just coincidence. So if it is actually Highlander, where did she go? And what happened to her tag? The bend in the aerial had been there from the start, so it can't be to blame for the loss of signal.

The short answer to both of these questions is we will probably never know. Satellite tags of this type are designed to last for up to 5 years (though sadly, hen harriers rarely seem to live that long). Highlander's tag was two years old and is the only confirmed failure out of 23 RSPB-monitored hen harrier satellite tags deployed in the last 3 years (ie a 4% failure rate). Researchers at the Dutch Montagu's Harrier Foundation have previously recorded a 6% technical failure rate (out of 67 birds tagged) using exactly the same make and model of satellite tag, with all failures occurring on tags older than at least one year. This puts the failure of this bird's tag well within the realms of expected normality, so I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that something like this would happen sooner or later.

Whatever the reason for her tag failure and indeed, whether this bird is actually Highlander or not, her rediscovery is undeniably a cause for celebration. The tricky business now will be keeping track of her without a functioning tag. And of course if this is Highlander, the big question is... will she return to Bowland to breed this summer?

We'll be watching and waiting...

*If you're lucky enough to see a hen harrier, please help us keep track by submit your sightings (description of the bird, time, date, location with grid reference if possible) to our Hen Harrier Hotline on 08454600121 (calls charged at local rates) or email [email protected].*


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## noushka05

CuddleMonster said:


> It's a daft idea - anyone who wanted to cause problems for a landowner or gamekeeper could just poison a bird and chuck it onto their land.
> 
> And if you think it doesn't happen...I used to live on a farm which didn't have any public rights of way on it, but I had permission from the farmer to walk the land. In ONE summer, I found three buzzards and two foxes, all dead from poison in the same two fields (fields bordered by another farmer's land and by a main road with lots of convenient stopping places) The farmer was really upset as he loved seeing the buzzards and even though he wasn't keen on foxes because they took the chickens, he didn't believe any animal should be poisoned. Police weren't interested in investigating, and we never did find out who was responsible, yet under these new 'laws' he would be blamed because it was his land.





rona said:


> I've found dead birds of prey several times on National trust ground.


Hope these incidents of wildlife crime were reported to the police?


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## rona

noushka05 said:


> Hope these incidents of wildlife crime were reported to the police?


They were natural deaths through starvation in winter. Not that they would ever have been reported as such by the likes of you or Raptor politics where every death is caused by some misdemeanour 

Also, the decline in BOP were due to gamekeepers in the late 19th and early 20th century, everyone admits to that, but the majority of land owners and game keepers have moved on since then.

What happens when a land owner who protects BOP and actively encourages them to stay and breed gets accusation and blame? They try and discourage the BOP staying that's what. That's why you and the RSPB are wrong in your approach

Easy to discourage the ground nesting Hen Harrier by non lethal methods


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## noushka05

rona said:


> They were natural deaths through starvation in winter. Not that they would ever have been reported as such by the likes of you or Raptor politics where every death is caused by some misdemeanour


How do you know they weren't poisoned or shot?


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## rona

noushka05 said:


> How do you know they weren't poisoned or shot?


I can check for shot and if they were poisoned it was by the NT!!
As I worked there ever single day for years, and there were a very prominent pair of Buzzards that reared up to 5 young every year quite successfully, also numerous Kestrels and Owls, I;m quite certain no one was out to get them 

When you know the land, the wildlife and the people you don't need to make up conspiracy theories


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## noushka05

rona said:


> I can check for shot and if they were poisoned it was by the NT!!
> As I worked there ever single day for years, and there were a very prominent pair of Buzzards that reared up to 5 young every year quite successfully, also numerous Kestrels and Owls, I;m quite certain no one was out to get them
> 
> When you know the land, the wildlife and the people you don't need to make up conspiracy theories


Conspiracy theories The RSPB etc, have corpses autopsied. Without, how could anyone possibly ascertain how they died?


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## noushka05

rona said:


> They were natural deaths through starvation in winter. Not that they would ever have been reported as such by the likes of you or Raptor politics where every death is caused by some misdemeanour
> 
> Also, the decline in BOP were due to gamekeepers in the late 19th and early 20th century, everyone admits to that, but the majority of land owners and *game keepers have moved on since then.*
> 
> What happens when a land owner who protects BOP and actively encourages them to stay and breed gets accusation and blame? They try and discourage the BOP staying that's what. That's why you and the RSPB are wrong in your approach
> 
> Easy to discourage the ground nesting Hen Harrier by non lethal methods


I see you've added a bit.

No they haven't >>


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## rona

noushka05 said:


> I see you've added a bit.
> 
> No they haven't >>
> 
> View attachment 297337


Oh yes, the report that still lists the now admitted accidental death of 12 Red Kite as wildlife crime, How many more like that? They have Chris Packham as Vice president. We all know what his agenda is, the lies he tells and his inability to even recognise the difference between birds from different parts of the world


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## noushka05

rona said:


> Oh yes, the report that still lists the now admitted accidental death of 12 Red Kite as wildlife crime, How many more like that? They have Chris Packham as Vice president. We all know what his agenda is, the lies he tells and his inability to even recognise the difference between birds from different parts of the world


Was a gamekeeper convicted for the red kites? Link please.

Like him or not, most people acknowledge Chris is a man of integrity. However he is hated & slandered by the hunt/shoot fraternity for courageously speaking out against their cruel & environmentally destructive hobbies.


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## noushka05

Anyway to save wasting my precious time arguing I may as well just post these links you verified as FACTUAL 



rona said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...arrier/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...1818/hen-harrier-action-plan-england-2016.pdf
> 
> And then a few factual links
> http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/species/factsheet/22727733
> 
> http://app.bto.org/birdfacts/results/bob2610.htm
> 
> The main thing these birds need is habitat restoration and that's not anything to do with Grouse moors


The shoot set hate Chris stating these FACTS, don't they?

(Birdlife International)

. Persecution is still severe locally, for example on managed grouse moors of Scotland; in 2013 not a single pair successfully nested in England (Pitches 2013), despite the fact that there is estimated habitat for more than 300 pairs (Fielding _et al. _2011). 

(BTO)


In the UK, heather _Calluna vulgaris_ moorland is often managed to maximize the number of red grouse _Lagopus lagopus scoticus_ available for shooting. As part of this management, predators such as raptors, corvids and red fox _Vulpes vulpes_ have traditionally been killed. In the UK, all raptors now have full legal protection but despite this their persecution on grouse moors is still widespread as some species predate grouse.


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## chillminx

Good on Chris Packham I say for daring to stand up against the grouse shooting fraternity. Not many are brave enough to put their heads above the parapet and say as openly what so many think. Well done Chris! Keep up the good work!  My dream is that one day we will have a government that outlaws the grouse shooting industry.


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## CuddleMonster

noushka05 said:


> Hope these incidents of wildlife crime were reported to the police?


The ones on 'my' farm were, but as I mentioned in the original post, the police were completely uninterested. It was horrible finding the bodies as they had obviously died in agony and really upsetting for all of us - but would have been much worse if the landowner had had to face being treated like a criminal on top of it. I can't help thinking that spending more effort on re-education would be more profitable than simply blaming/punishing landowners for something that could well be completely beyond their control. (And something that could have actually been caused by someone ill-wishing them)


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## noushka05

chillminx said:


> Good on Chris Packham I say for daring to stand up against the grouse shooting fraternity. Not many are brave enough to put their heads above the parapet and say as openly what so many think. Well done Chris! Keep up the good work!  My dream is that one day we will have a government that outlaws the grouse shooting industry.


Hear hear @chillminx!  I couldn't agree with you more - only wish I could rep you x



CuddleMonster said:


> The ones on 'my' farm were, but as I mentioned in the original post, the police were completely uninterested. It was horrible finding the bodies as they had obviously died in agony and really upsetting for all of us - but would have been much worse if the landowner had had to face being treated like a criminal on top of it. I can't help thinking that spending more effort on re-education would be more profitable than simply blaming/punishing landowners for something that could well be completely beyond their control. (And something that could have actually been caused by someone ill-wishing them)


I don't see why a landowner would be treated like a criminal if they had reported the crime & wanted it investigating - quite the opposite (cue one of Rona's anecdotes to the contrary lol ). I know of farmers who have reported hare coursing & badger baiting on their land so I'm sure others will have reported raptor persecution too & not been treated like criminals. Members of the public report incidents of wildlife crime on land owned by farmers and landowners all the time, which includes raptor persecution. A crime is a crime & wildlife crime is one of the most heinous imo. I can't imagine being a landowner or a farmer & turning a blind eye to wildlife crime. I personally, could never do it & well done you for reporting it too. Sadly & all too often the police tend to be hopeless, worse still, sometimes even complicit!. If in the event you or anyone else suspect a crime against wildlife has been committed BAWC have some excellent advice here - http://birdersagainst.org/projects/report/  I have been to one of BAWCs wildlife conferences, they are a fantastic organisation (even had Chris Packham sit on our table(next to my oh) for the meal! lol)

The RSPB had been working with grouse moors for many years trying to resolve the conflict - hen harrier continued to be persecuted to the perilous numbers we see today, hence why the RSPB gave up the ghost. You simply cannot educate these people, they hate species which impact on grouse numbers so kill with impunity & they believe they are above the law because most of the time - they are.

So as we know unequivocally that grouse moors are wiping out our hen harriers & persecuting other bops & as it is nigh on impossible to catch these killers red handed the only way to save our hen harrier is to ban driven grouse moors.


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## CuddleMonster

noushka05 said:


> I don't see why a landowner would be treated like a criminal if they had reported the crime & wanted it investigating


That assumes the landowner finds the evidence first. My point was, that under these new laws, it would be so easy for someone to poison a bird, chuck the corpse onto land belonging to someone they disliked, and then become a 'concerned anonymous citizen' reporting wildlife crime to the police. Ok, so in this case, the landowner would merely have their licence revoked; he or she would not end up with a fine or jail sentence - but it feels a bit like the thin end of the wedge. Punishing someone even when there is insufficient evidence to convict them is very concerning - what's the next step?


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## chillminx

Why would anyone who respects wildlife (hen harriers in this case) deliberately poison a bird to chuck it on to a landowner's property to implicate them??? Makes no sense!  

Sounds like you are attributing the same warped sense of values to the good people who aim to protect raptors as an integral and valued part of the UK's fauna and those people that persecute raptors simply for squalid greed.


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## CuddleMonster

chillminx said:


> Why would anyone who respects wildlife (hen harriers in this case) deliberately poison a bird to chuck it on to a landowner's property to implicate them??? Makes no sense!
> 
> Sounds like you are attributing the same warped sense of values to the good people who aim to protect raptors as an integral and valued part of the UK's fauna and those people that persecute raptors simply for squalid greed.


I think you have misunderstood me - I have not said anywhere that birds would be poisoned by people who respect wildlife - that would be ridiculous! What I have said is that this law provides the perfect opportunity for anyone who dislikes a particular landowner to leave poisoned wildlife on that landowner's property so as to get them into trouble.


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## chillminx

OK, gotcha!  

It seems a rather convoluted way for someone with a grudge against a landowner to get back at them. And rather unreliable seeing as the police apparently are not always keen to investigate suspected raptor poisonings. Who would be informing the police about the dead bird? The landowner? The poisoner? 

I am sure there would be easier ways to make someone's life a misery if one wanted to, but I won't post suggestions here as one never knows who might be reading, LOL !


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## CuddleMonster

Not really. If someone likes poisoning wildlife AND upsetting their neighbours, it's probably their idea of fun. In our case, I can't believe that so many poisoned creatures just 'happened' to turn up on land belonging to someone who would be upset by it. And I'm sure if this law had applied in our case, the person responsible would have got an extra kick out of making an anonymous phone call blaming the landowner.


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## noushka05

CuddleMonster said:


> That assumes the landowner finds the evidence first. My point was, that under these new laws, it would be so easy for someone to poison a bird, chuck the corpse onto land belonging to someone they disliked, and then become a 'concerned anonymous citizen' reporting wildlife crime to the police. Ok, so in this case, the landowner would merely have their licence revoked; he or she would not end up with a fine or jail sentence - but it feels a bit like the thin end of the wedge. Punishing someone even when there is insufficient evidence to convict them is very concerning - what's the next step?


Never mind licences, the first step would be to ban driven grouse shoots outright lol. We know without a shadow of doubt they are responsible for the demise of our hen harrier. And they are sink holes for most birds of prey species too. We know grouse moors cause flooding down stream & contribute to climate change. Mountain hare are being wiped off the land. These places are an environmental disaster & a hell hole for the native species which impact on grouse numbers.


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## chillminx

Hear, hear Noushka! Very well said!


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