# "my dog is a ______ and s/he is special, different from other breeds..."



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

yes, breed does matter - but don't tell me i am not qualified to make suggestions 
because i have not bred a litter of Lithuanian Lugerhunds, nor shown one and earned a conformation CC, 
nor trained one to a working-championship, nor had one from puphood to old-age and death.

dogs have TYPES as well as breeds - Labs and other retrievers have a lot in common; 
versatile hunting breeds have much common ground; livestock-guards are not good apt-pets, 
and the average Border Collie from working-lines will drive a 40-hr-a-week worker with 
a 45-minute commute *insane within 6-months of adoption or purchase,*
unless they make a concerted, well-thought-out plan to occupy the dog's time + energy. 

these are predictable, garden-variety problem-behaviors: 
* Chis who don't like strangers, and evade or snap at them [when they can't avoid them]. 
* GSDs who bark when in the yard. 
* Siberians who climb, dig, or leap to escape yards - or howl when alone, or destroy items when solo. 
* Labs who chew destructively whenever they're unsupervised - *being oral is part of being retrievers.* 
* Shelties who yap like mad things possessed. 
* LGDs who patrol the house and yard at night, *WOOFing at every sound.* 
* sporting breeds who pork-out and resemble sausages on stilts - *if there's food, they eat it.*
U fill the bowl - they eat what's offered; U want them in good shape? cut the calories on offer.

these are so predictable, they are cliche' - and claiming MY DOG IS SPECIAL, U cannot possibly understand... 
:lol: sure, anything U say...


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Oh, what a ridiculous drama queen just because someone had a differing opinion  "Attention! Attention! Attention!" You really do take the smallest things so personally... :lol:

Not to mention that fact that I didnt say *YOU* couldnt have an opinion, I merely said:

"Unless you have owned the breed I dont think you can really understand how different they are to other "normal" sized dogs"

Where on earth does that say anyone cant have an opinion? Anyone can have an opinion, but not knowing a breed does mean that you may well not understand the unique traits of an individual breed. Like, for example, my basenji. You sure as hell wouldnt train that in the same way you would a labrador as they are a completely different dog, which you only learn from spending a significant amount of time with them.

You clearly dont like someone questioning the advice you give. I know you are the self proclaimed training expert on the forum, but that doesnt mean other people dont have the same or similar experience, perhaps they just dont shout it out at all times  A good trainer should be able to take on board different ways of training that may be more successful for the owner.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

O-M-D, a Border Collie who chases cars - or cats! 

heavens, a GSD that chases bicyclists and joggers - or horseback-riders, or motorcycles! 

a Golden who resource-guards the food-bowl - or a pig's-ear - or dropped food! 


a BC who has worn a 4-inch-deep rut, running the fenceline when anyone walks or bikes by! 

whatever shall we do - this is so unexpected?! :scared: i've never heard of such a thing...


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Dont be so childish.

Christ, i wouldnt ever allow such an attention seeking drama queen anywhere near my dogs


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Haha my half GSD barks in the yard... at nothing. He's like the sixth sense dog, he sees things


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

my word, a toy-dog who barks and snaps at larger dogs! 

gee-gosh, a terrierrrrist who starts fights with larger dogs! 

wow, a Beagle who barks - and barks - and bays - and howls - and barks! 

gracious goodness, a Peke who barks when someone knocks or rings the doorbell!


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

goodness me, the ignore button !

Thank God for it!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

oh my, a Malamute [or Nordic of one's choice] who DIGS holes and lays in them!

whatever shall we do - my terrierrrist digs for moles, and chases squirrels!

oh, NO - my under-10-pound dog cannot wait for 10-hours to pee!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

alas, alack!... my Weimaraner has separation-anxiety!... 

woe is me, my Aussie-Shepherd is shy-sharp and bites strangers' butts! 

oh, NO! my Aussie Cattle-dog nips the grandkids' calves and tugs their pantlegs!


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## hobo99 (Aug 18, 2008)

You seem to be on something really good tonight , its nice to have fun . . But more fun to be nice .:thumbup:


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Maybe i am not "with it tonight" but what is the point of this thread???? anyone joining this site will i am sure will read this and think "WOW" there is trouble on here,!!!!!!! i really dont understand why the OP started this thread apart from trying to get adverse reactions from PF members


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hazel pritchard said:


> i really dont understand why the OP started this thread...


i am pointing out the many common patterns of behavior, across breeds and within groups - 
herding breeds chase moving objects, guarding breeds are likely to resource-guard, 
and gundogs will gladly eat themselves into blimphood, given the chance. 

terriers start trouble they can never hope to finish, and are predatory. 
smart dogs are readily bored, and WILL find something to fill idle time. 
retrievers are oral, and chew - What they chew is up to U; a crate or dog-proofing is suggested.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> Haha my half GSD barks in the yard... at nothing. He's like the sixth sense dog, he sees things


 yup, GSDs and their mixes are notorious nuisance-barkers. 

it's more like [oops! LikeLY, sorry ] he hears something - dogs hear infrasound [lower than human-hearing range] 
as well as ultrasound [much higher than human-hearing range - like bats' radar]. 
PLUS they have much-more sensitive hearing than humans: an average convo is about 60-dB, 
and a dog can **hear** the chat from 75 to 100-ft away - every word.  
that's why no-one while training should shout at a dog unless the dog is literally a football-field away; 
we should instead whisper and teach the dog to respond to that cue; they can hear 
even in the midst of other noise, when we whisper.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> yup, GSDs and their mixes are notorious nuisance-barkers.
> 
> it's more like he hears something - dogs hear infrasound [much deeper than human-hearing range]
> as well as ultrasound [much higher than human-hearing range - like bats' radar].
> ...


My GSD has only ever barked once.

However my shelties chase all form of animal that moves...they dont chase cars or bikes or people thank god.
:thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> My GSD has only ever barked once.


just a hunch - but he probly doesn't spend hours on end, alone in the garden, with passerby, motors passing, 
come-and-go of neighbors, etc - does he?


shetlandlover said:


> ...my shelties chase all form of animal that moves... they dont chase cars or bikes or people, thank god. :thumbup:


that's a stroke of luck!


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## sm1985 (Jan 10, 2011)

I do agree in some aspects that certain traits/characteristics are associated with particular breeds and people should do a little research before getting a dog, but it isn't always set in stone - dogs have their own personalities at the end of the day. My terrier cross for example will not start fights with other dogs - he will act calmly towards calm dogs and will avoid all dogs that are excitable or aggressive by either hiding behind me or running in the opposite direction! He will however chase small animals and sniff out their burrows etc and loves digging!


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> just a hunch - but he probly doesn't spend hours on end, alone in the garden, with passerby, motors passing,
> come-and-go of neighbors, etc - does he?
> 
> that's a stroke of luck!


She... 
She has never barked really.......I think its because she was abused.

My shelties are scared of anything with wheels..:lol:


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

Oh god I was just starting to consider getting a GSD, maybe not a wise choice if he/she will terrorise neighbours if we leave it outside for any period of time. How would you stop the dog from nuisance barking? would having a companion stop it or is there another way? Want to have something figured out before/if I get one!! Being prepared


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I'll put it to a test then LFL

If Duke hears me when I whisper sit, I'mma rep you.

Granted, he can hear the food bin open when he's in another country, but we shall see!


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> She has never barked really.......I think its because she was abused.


My BC X GSD doesnt bark either :S and when she does its the most pathetic thing iv ever heard...a mouse could squeak louder!

She only has 1 BC trait and thats she heards her football (asin will run round and round and round it, lie down, crawl up to it then run round and round it again) but other than that she doesnt chase moving objects or heard people into the same room etc


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Liquidsunshine said:


> ...I [am considering] getting a GSD, maybe not a wise choice if he/she will terrorise neighbours
> if we leave it outside for any period of time. How would you stop the dog from nuisance barking?
> would having a companion stop it or is there another way?


terrorise the neighbors is not likely.  annoy the #[email protected]! out of them with barking? quite likely.

the best way to avoid a nuisance-barking GSD is to have the dog indoors, especially *if U are not home.* 
going out with the dog, and keeping them happily occupied - play with a ball, sniffing games [find the toy, etc], 
are also good. leaving the dog out for SHORT times, once the pup is past 8 to 9-MO and has good manners 
as a foundation, can be fine; but young puppies are uncertain, and will often react to being solo by whining, 
barking at noises-off, and barking to be let in - they're just kids, they need adults to monitor and model 
good behavior and growing confidence.

a second dog just means more barking; barking is contagious, if U walk into a shelter and one dog barks, 
75 to 85% will begin barking.  it's an alert, it's excitement, it's LOOK AT ME, it's many reasons - 
but they will mostly all bark, cuz it's catching.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

Haha phew, seeing as my partner is a police man it could be awkward if we get a noise complaint!
Although maybe that could work to our advantage!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

It works the other way round, too, though.

If you've got a well behaved/obedient dog and it's got Border Collie ANYWHERE in its lineage, people think it came out of the womb ready-trained.

Typical scenario:


Fellow Dog Walker: "Your dog's very obedient! Isn't she lovely? What breed is she?"

Me: "Crossbreed"


FDW: "Oh, do you know what breeds?"


Me: "Well, yeah - she's 7/8 Border Collie and 1/8 Poodle, as it happens"


FDW: "Ah, that'll be it then! Collies are really intelligent and easy to train, aren't they?"


Me: "Yeah, that's right" (inwardly  -ing)


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## JJAK (May 28, 2010)

Colliepoodle said:


> It works the other way round, too, though.
> 
> If you've got a well behaved/obedient dog and it's got Border Collie ANYWHERE in its lineage, people think it came out of the womb ready-trained.
> 
> ...


Completely agree!! 
They dont realise how much time and effort we put into them to make them well behaved!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I would think a collie would have more potential to be badly behaved especially if you didn't put the work in and it was bored


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> I would think a collie would have more potential to be badly behaved especially if you didn't put the work in and it was bored


Spot on. Which is why they're not for everyone.

Unfortunately, so many confuse the "Collies are intelligent" thing with "Collies are easy". A bored/untrained clever dog is FAR more likely to go self-employed/amuse itself than a not-so-clever one - especially if it's a WORKY clever dog.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Or people buy them expecting a top obedience/agility/flyball/working trials dog without putting the work in and wonder why they don't do well. After all collies just naturally know what to do right?

I couldn't handle one I know that. Way too smart and too much work for me


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

What colliepoodle says is very true. 
I have a Border Collie from working lines. People often ask about him on walks because I tend to get him to "work" during parts of our walk ( frisbee tricks, sheep balls etc) but he does do normal doggy things too  They often comment that BCs are very obedient dogs and so easy to train but I do try to diplomatically explain that their intelligence means that they can learn undesirable behaviours just as quickly unless you teach them an alternative and that it's also particularly important to give them regular outputs for their instinctive behaviour as well as plenty of mental stimulation  Hence I explain that he is worked and competes in agility and does plenty of clicker training too, on top of his walks etc.

What Terry says about breed specific tendencies is also true. That said, of course, there is always going to be a certain degree of variation within any breed; in my experience for example some show bred BCs are less likely to have such a strong "eye" and working ability. Although there are of course many breeders these days who breed purely for dog sports such as agility, flyball and obedience.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Leashedforlife you are a knowledgable member but you don't know everything and come across very narrowminded and well childish if someone questions you 

Good luck approaching my Patterdale terrier with that attitude, you'd fail epicly. In all honesty I can see where you are coming from all breeds have tendancies and more poetential to do things than others but you really cannot comment on any specific breed with a leg to stand on and something to go on if you have never owned nor experienced it personally. FACT.


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## The3DChis (Jan 17, 2011)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Leashedforlife you are a knowledgable member but you don't know everything and come across very narrowminded and well childish if someone questions you
> 
> Good luck approaching my Patterdale terrier with that attitude, you'd fail epicly. In all honesty I can see where you are coming from all breeds have tendancies and more poetential to do things than others but you really cannot comment on any specific breed with a leg to stand on and something to go on if you have never owned nor experienced it personally. FACT.


I totally agree with you.:thumbup:
Researching a breed is so very different to actually owning one or working with them.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> ...you really cannot comment on any specific breed [and have] a leg to stand on...
> if you have never owned nor experienced [that breed] personally. FACT.


funny - i have worked with ONE Kuvasz in my life, quite successfully, despite never having owned one. 
there are things that all LGDs tend to have in common, and this young male LGD was an underexercised, 
undersocialized dog who was too powerful for his handler [her husband had walked him since he was 18-WO, 
when she gave up, and the dog was now 15-MO and hubby had just had cardiac-bypass surgery - 
NO dog-walking in his near future, thanks awfully...].

i have worked with ONE phobic-dog in my life, who had not experienced a trauma to cause the fear; 
the dog happened to be a Berner, another breed i've never personally owned, and it was resolved, too. 
must i LIVE WITH my own phobic dog, feral dog, seizure-affected dog, etc, in order to help those owners?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

The3DChis said:


> Researching a breed is so very different to actually owning one or working with them.


i've worked with many Chis, they're common in the USA - with well-known, common failings, 
like overattachment to one person, lap-piranhas, barking fools at arrivals, snapping at strangers 
who attempt to pick them up, etc.  all seen often, no surprises there.

and no - i have yet to Live-With a Chi - or a Poodle, a Toller, a Tosa, a Coonhound, a Bloodhound, 
a Dane, a BC, a Rough-Collie, a Giant-Schnauzer, a Tibetan-Mastiff... 
yet i have worked with all **but** the Tosa. 
if a Tosa-owner called me and asked for help, would i turn them down because i've never lived with one?

does *London Dog-Walker* refuse to WALk breeds she has not lived with? :lol: 
does *Colette* refuse to work with breeds she has not raised, or bred, or scored for working-certificates? 
do *all ethical trainers* limit themselves only to breeds they have owned, bred, and buried? 
sheesh - :001_tt2: don't be ridiculous; that would mean each trainer might have 2 or 3 or 5 breeds, at most!


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2011)

I work on the basis that every dog is different. However some breeds carry traits for example shelties bark...this doesnt mean all shelties bark it just means that you are more likely to end up with a sheltie that loves to be vocal.

Certain dogs have reputations that are just down right silly and others that have reputations that are very true.

For example....anything small is a ankle biter? I once had a border collie that loved to bite ankles was only a puppy. Yet my best friend has to yorkies that dont touch ankles, BUT I have met a fair few who do nip at your ankles. 

Its like contact breeders of....lets say....German Shepherds and they will all give you a rough guide of what life is like with their dogs that doesnt mean all will be like this some are better behaved than others and some dont act out until something drastic changes.

My Charlie is nuetered, very quiet, sleeps all day, you dont know hes there, he doesnt bother about other dogs and is fairly boring...

When Grace brought Holly round (from the forum) Charlie completely changed, he ran all over the lounge and started mounting her and her owners trying to get to her to...well....do his thing. He had never done this before...ever dispite our girls being un-spayed.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i've worked with many Chis, they're common in the USA - with well-known, common failings,
> like overattachment to one person, lap-piranhas, barking fools at arrivals, snapping at strangers
> who attempt to pick them up, etc.  all seen often, no surprises there.
> 
> ...


You can work with a breed you dont have experience with, but it certainly helps if you do.

Your inability to accept that someone with actual HANDS ON experience of living with a breed that you are giving (incorrect) advice about might actually know more than you about their issues is downright arrogant and childish. Not the behaviour one would expect from a self proclaimed "professional". And the epic tantrum, throwing all the toys out of the pram, going on and on and on and on and on is just laughable. Grow up FFS  Heaven forbid someone properly question your methods, I think you'd have a full on meltdown :lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sparkle said:


Sparkle said:


> *punctuation + BOLD added -*
> 
> Just looking for advice/opinions really
> 
> ...


_

and i replied: 
__________________________________________________ 


Sparkle said:



...first viewed at 6-WO... shy but happy go lucky (deposit put down).
Picked her up at 12-WO and she was quite timid, ears stuck to her head...
[after a] few hours being [in our] home, ears were up, tail didn't stop wagging, fabulous!

Click to expand...

it takes more than a few hours - and WAITING till she was 12-WO to get her means that a full month
of the best age for socialization was wasted, while the breeder did not take her out + about.


Sparkle said:



She has been so socialised*,* it's ridiculous*,* I've worn hats around her because she was showing fear of hats!!

Click to expand...

YOU wearing hats is one thing - total strangers in hats, wearing bug-eye reflective sunglasses, etc,
is very =different=. she needs to meet friendly strangers - under careful control, not past her
own ability to feel comfy and interact willingly.


Sparkle said:



...recently... on walks if someone [walks] toward her, she [will] lunge and bark at them!! ...
I've been working with her to stop this (*she used to hide when people were near*)

Click to expand...

if she were truly well-socialized, she would not have been hiding - nor would she now lunge + bark.


Sparkle said:



...she's learnt to watch me (...she's really food oriented) when people walk past
and I'm asking random people to give her treats...

Click to expand...

don't do that! asking her to violate her own safety-distance with food as a lure, does NOT make her feel safer.
she will merely snatch the treat + retreat to eat it - STOP trying to make her get closer, before she's ready
to meet strangers on her own terms.


Sparkle said:



...for love nor money she will not take [treats] from them, so  am getting them to put [treats] by her!!

Click to expand...


i'd stop that, too - have them simply drop the treat AND MOVE BACK to let her approach the goody + eat.
this gives her 2 rewards - the treat and THEY MOVE AWAY. distance is a reward!

buy or borrow a copy of Click to Calm, it's a very safe, very detailed DIY program.
it works on any reactive issue - leash-reactive, fearful, phobic, aggro, whatever.


Sparkle said:



We [must] do the same with *people coming in the house, because she will bark and run away*!! 
She's fine if people ignore her...

Click to expand...

again, if she had been socialized at a younger age during prime-time [8 to 12-WO] or socialized properly from
3-MO to 6-MO, this would not be happening - she is uncertain and flees because she's scared of strangers.


Sparkle said:



Anyway the other day we went to see friends...
she [growled] at this girl for 10-mins 
and the girl would not give it a rest, even tho I told her to back off!

Click to expand...

slap the child and if the mother objects, smack her for not teaching her child better. :eyeroll:
* no, not really - but it's bloody tempting.*  DON'T LET children OR adults harass her - U just cost Urself
a MONTH or more of repair-work, letting that little monster bug her for TEN BLOODY MINUTES.
*be an advocate for Ur shy-dog - if people do not listen, TAKE HER HOME - or don't take her along.*


Sparkle said:



She's also showing signs of coming into heat...

Click to expand...

get her spayed, ASAP - like today. she is a toy-breed and already nearly full-size;
don't yammer about how her joints will turn to Swiss-cheese and her brain will never mature,
it's liquid-manure and i'm tired of hearing it. spaying her saves much grief, and the earlier,
the faster she'll heal and the less scarring. *yes, it's my opinion and IME of over 25-years, it's accurate -
U are perfectly capable of deciding to do something else, but i get to express my opinion, anyway.* :thumbup: 
and then, of course, U tell me i'm an eejit and do whatever U please. :lol: 
____________________________________________________

i stand by my reply.  if the breeder is NOT going to actively socialize the pups from approximately 6-WO in her home, 
with strangers visiting to meet, play with + handle the pups, Then starting at 8-WO *outside her home,* 
and making the visitors different from the breeder's family, with strangers of various ages and ethnicities 
and able/disabled, etc, *then - * IMO those 4-weeks from 8-WO to 12-WO spent with her breeder, 
NOT being socialized, are prime-time lost - which cannot be re-created.

the window of opportunity closes, and we cannot fix it, we can only do rehabilitation.

re *Treat + retreat* - 
Retreat & Treat | Dog Star Daily 
this is *Dr. Ian Dunbar*'s explanation of this process, why it's better than having the scared dog 
*approach past their comfort-zone,* but instead send the food to the dog, 
OR have the safe-person feed the dog, and the dog **associate** the food/nice with the scary-person.

here is *Suzanne Clothier*'s version of the same process - 
Connecting with the Dots: Suzanne Clothier's Treat and Retreat Game 



At the seminar, there was a dog attending that was somewhat leary of strangers. 
And within maybe 30-minutes, the dog was happily approaching one stranger and taking treats 
from the stranger's hand. We then repeated the session with another stranger and the process 
was even quicker. It is VERY important to remember to take the steps away from the dog - 
even as the dogs skill and comfort increases.

Here is what I have in my notes [EDIT: from the seminar]:
- toss the treat when you are on the dogs radar then take a couple of steps back
- as the dog looks up toss a treat towards the dog, having it land so the dog has to take a step or two towards the stranger.
- DON'T forget to take those steps away
- Don't always make things harder and harder!
- ALWAYS leave the dog wanting more!
- Remember, the dog needs to tell you where to start.
- The DOG needs to make the choice to close the distance
- The dogs do seem to generalize this pretty quickly and eventually you will get to the point 
where you have to start working on only greeting people when you give permission.

Click to expand...

so - when i suggest this, i am in very good company.  and i have done it myself, and my clients have, too, 
and total strangers on Yahoo!-group lists have done this, AND IT WORKED - safely. :thumbup: 
cheers, 
- t_


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> I'll put it to a test then LFL
> 
> If Duke hears me when I whisper sit, I'mma rep you.
> Granted, he can hear the food bin open when he's in another country, but we shall see!


Cool! :thumbup: didja try it yet?... i'm waiting for my rep... :lol:


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> "IMO those 4-weeks from 8-WO to 12-WO spent with her breeder,
> NOT being socialized, are prime-time lost - which cannot be re-created."
> 
> "it takes more than a few hours - and WAITING till she was 12-WO to get her means that a full month
> ...


This alone tells me you do not know the breed as NO responsible breeder lets a chihuahua pup go before 12 weeks. Infact, it is such an important matter that the British Chihuahua Club make it a rule of membership in their Code of Ethics.

British Chihuahua Club

BCC code of ethics:
_Members shall not mate any bitch that is less than 12 calendar months of age.

Members shall not mate a bitch aged more than 8 years of age.

Members shall not mate a bitch after it has had 6 litters.

*Members shall not sell, or allow to leave their premises, puppies which are less than 12 weeks of age.*
Members shall not have more than two cæsarian sections on any one bitch and these must not be on two consecutive seasons.

Members shall not mate any bitch for more than two consecutive seasons.

No member shall knowingly abandon any dog, bitch or puppy. _

Chihuahuas (and other small breeds) take a lot longer than large breeds to mature both physically and mentally as puppies, smaller breeds often wean later and are therefore not ready to go until later. I know this from *experience* of breeding both large and small breeds.

Im not saying that everything you are saying is incorrect, half of it is so jumbled I cant make heads or tails of it anyway :lol: But, you are VERY irresponsible to be advising people that 8 weeks is the best time to take a chihuahua puppy home. As for your insistence that those 4 weeks will result in behavioural problems needing rehabilitation, well, thats just stupid  I've had pups at 8 weeks, at 12 weeks and i've had pups even as old as 4 or 5 months and NONE of them have ever had any socialisation issues whatsoever and certainly werent in need of rehabilitation


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> British Chihuahua Club
> 
> BCC code of ethics:
> ...
> _*Members shall not sell, or allow to leave their premises, puppies which are less than 12 weeks of age.* _


then IMO they are damaging the chances that their member's Chihuahua pups will become the outgoing, 
confident, happy, friendly dogs they _*could*_ be, with early and happy experiences outside 
the family of their breeder - IOW with people *other than* the breeder's immediate family or a few visitors.

many Chi-breeders here EITHER place their pups at 10-WO Or take the time and make the effort 
to socialize their pups themselves, before placing them - if U are going to WAIT for 3-MO to place the pups, 
then the socialization must be done by the breeder, not merely to their own kids, the next-door neighbor, 
and a couple of family-members who don't live in the same household, but broadly, with many physical, 
ethnic, language, movement, sex, age, size, etc, variables.

here is DogStar Daily [Ian Dunbar, DVM] on puppies + socialization: 
Puppy's First Month at Home (8-12 weeks) | Dog Star Daily


> *bold added - *
> 
> Puppy's First Month at Home (8-12 weeks)
> Puppies are simply custom-designed for easy socialization. Young puppies eagerly approach everyone,
> ...


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> then IMO they are damaging the chances that their member's Chihuahua pups will become the outgoing,
> confident, happy, friendly dogs they _*could*_ be, with early and happy experiences outside
> the family of their breeder - IOW with people *other than* the breeder's immediate family or a few visitors.
> 
> ...


Im sorry, but that is simply not true, certainly amongst the "top" breeders who are doing things in the correct way - health testing, proving the parents, etc etc. I dont know of any breeders who allow them to go younger, they certainly wouldnt be considered reputable, the only reason to do it would be to get their hands on the money sooner, but people like you spouting generic "advice" is only fueling this sort of behaviour which could be damaging to the puppies in question.

We sell our labrador pups at 8 weeks (unless there is a reason (eg holidays) that we hold them longer) so im not saying 8 weeks isnt the right age to bring most puppies home  But, NOT chihuahua's, whether you like it or not there is a difference with certain breeds, that is one, and those stipulations are put on by the breed club for a reason  You can quote as many people as you like but it doesnt change the fact that on this matter you are wrong in the advice you are giving.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Leashed for life have you ever been wrong on anything  :lol: My guess in your eyes probably not. I'd sure as hell love to see you come "work" with my Patterdale.
Be a right laugh :thumbsup:


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

If this is the advice of the breed club than it may well be responsible for the large number of stand-offish, difficult-to-socialise Chi and Chi mixes that I see 

I'm only half joking though.

I have no idea how all this started and I haven't read the entire thread...

I don't have a problem with breeders releasing their puppies late regardless of breed in fact I am a fan of natural and late weaning. 
*BUT* only providing that the puppies are raised in an environment that is supprotive of intensive but gentle socialisation.

In fact, as I work in behaviour the most difficult nuts to crack (so to speak) in relation to early socialisation practices are breeders. If puppies are staying with the breeder, let's say till 12 weeks are breeders exposing puppies to about 100 different people (in a positive way of course)?, 100 different dogs or different types? 
This what is routinely asked of dog owners (not specific breed owners) as regards general socialisation of companion DOGS. Why not breeders?

As much as I agree that breeds have distinguishable heritable traits chis, GSDs, labs, whatever are more dog than breed. I absolutely dispise breedism attitudes (not directing this at anyone) it is the thinking behing BSL and lots of other dog related myths


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

If this is the advice of the breed club than it may well be responsible for the large number of stand-offish, difficult-to-socialise Chi and Chi mixes that I see 

*I'd imagine that is more likely down to the huge number being churned out by puppy farmers and pet breeders from parents with unpredictable temperments. A large part of the temperment is inherited afterall.*
I'm only half joking though.

I have no idea how all this started and I haven't read the entire thread...

I don't have a problem with breeders releasing their puppies late regardless of breed in fact I am a fan of natural and late weaning. 
*BUT* only providing that the puppies are raised in an environment that is supprotive of intensive but gentle socialisation.

In fact, as I work in behaviour the most difficult nuts to crack (so to speak) in relation to early socialisation practices are breeders. If puppies are staying with the breeder, let's say till 12 weeks are breeders exposing puppies to about 100 different people (in a positive way of course)?, 100 different dogs or different types?

This what is routinely asked of dog owners (not specific breed owners) as regards general socialisation of companion DOGS. Why not breeders?

*How many pet owners do this?? 100 different people? Not many for sure. And as a pup cant interact with other dogs until AT LEAST 12 weeks when fully vaccinated it doesnt seem to be an issue for them to go to their new homes at 12 weeks, fully vaccinated and ready to explore their new world. They would probably get as much, if not more, socialisation at the breeders with various eager puppy owners visiting with family.*

As much as I agree that breeds have distinguishable heritable traits chis, GSDs, labs, whatever are more dog than breed. I absolutely dispise breedism attitudes (not directing this at anyone) it is the thinking behing BSL and lots of other dog related myths.

*I agree completely. But the issue here is that leashedforlife got very hostile when I questioned his/her comments that the reason a members chihuahua is a bit nervous of new people is because she didnt take it home at 8 weeks. There are many, many chihuahuas going home at 12 weeks that have no issues whatsoever, infact, they are more likely to have problems if taken away from mum and littermates too early - they generally are not long weaned at 8 weeks. So to say that a breeder is wrong for not letting it go at 8 weeks is certainly showing a lack of knowledge of this breed and its unique requirements as a young pup. The code of ethics is written by people who have MANY years of experience of the breed and it is there to ensure the welfare of members dogs and puppies. If it was found to be beneficial to let them go to new homes earlier then the rule wouldnt state 12 weeks. I dont think that is "breedist", just a concern for the welfare of puppies by those who know the breed best.*


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## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

Oh dear ive just caught up with this!!

Leashed for life you really are something else!!! Everyone an have an opinion and quite frankly as a new member on this forum you don't make it very welcoming!!!

Without actually meeting Lotus you Have no right to make assumptions.. I gave a brief outline on her and you gave an extremely rude response luckily enough I know when and when not to be bugged by people!! You said I hadn't socialised her when I think taking her everywhere to many different places to see different people counts as good socialisation! Being damn right rude about spaying a dog and before you even know my views on spaying and neutering me you went on a tirade of how you are sick and tired of people saying it's bad blah blah blah - 

I also this the ab scheme (not that I always thing ab is a good idea) say to keep chis til 12 weeks! There are some good reasons why breed clubs put regulations into consideration!!

I don't understand what makes you some sort of dog guru because all I've seen is childish behaviour and a temper tantrum where quite frankly you put my 3 year old niece to shame!!!

And for your info last few days my lchihuahua has stood like a pro whilst people passed and I treated her oh dear bad me


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## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

Jess - thanks for explaining the reasons why  much appreciated


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Jess2308 said:


> *I'd imagine that is more likely down to the huge number being churned out by puppy farmers and pet breeders from parents with unpredictable temperments. A large part of the temperment is inherited afterall.*
> 
> *How many pet owners do this?? 100 different people? Not many for sure. And as a pup cant interact with other dogs until AT LEAST 12 weeks when fully vaccinated it doesnt seem to be an issue for them to go to their new homes at 12 weeks, fully vaccinated and ready to explore their new world. They would probably get as much, if not more, socialisation at the breeders with various eager puppy owners visiting with family.*
> 
> *I agree completely. But the issue here is that leashedforlife got very hostile when I questioned his/her comments that the reason a members chihuahua is a bit nervous of new people is because she didnt take it home at 8 weeks. There are many, many chihuahuas going home at 12 weeks that have no issues whatsoever, infact, they are more likely to have problems if taken away from mum and littermates too early - they generally are not long weaned at 8 weeks. So to say that a breeder is wrong for not letting it go at 8 weeks is certainly showing a lack of knowledge of this breed and its unique requirements as a young pup. The code of ethics is written by people who have MANY years of experience of the breed and it is there to ensure the welfare of members dogs and puppies. If it was found to be beneficial to let them go to new homes earlier then the rule wouldnt state 12 weeks. I dont think that is "breedist", just a concern for the welfare of puppies by those who know the breed best.*


Yes I do believe that byb breeders have contributed negatively to many breeds. But so have conformation breeders, those considered 'experts' in their breed. They, along with breed clubs and kennel clubs are responsible for breed standards and are responsible for the interpretation of breed standards. Breed standards often alude to temperament traits desireable in a breed that make the dog more difficult to socialise and therefore even more difficult to fulfill its likely role, that of companion animal.

I'm not anti-pedigree dogs, in fact I am a pedigree fan but I want them to be healthy and happy.

I attend breed shows regularly and participate and as such meet many 'well-bred' dogs of various breeds. I meet many pet dogs too from diverse sources  I can generally tell a puppy that has had a great breeder as in one who has provided the puppies with a great foundation in early socialisation.

All of temerpament is considered largely innate, and therefore genetic. Modification and environment intervention contributes along with temperament to produce 'personality'.

In relation to socialisation requirements. I would say that most puppy class attendees of my classes would come close to achieving this. This may not happen in exactly 12 weeks but certainly by the age of 16 weeks.

Socialisation V immunity is a long debated topic. Indeed there is a sticky thread in this forum on this with links etc. Given our modern understanding of disease transmission, especially Parvo, and socialisation requirements for modern dogs there is no excuse for the traditional attitude of depriving a puppy social interaction. Young puppies can be safely introduced to healthy dogs in a disinfected environment.

As I said I have no idea how all this started and I'm not really that interested but I do think that discussion of how much stock to take in so-called breed characteristics is an interesting and important one.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

tripod said:


> Yes I do believe that byb breeders have contributed negatively to many breeds. But so have conformation breeders, those considered 'experts' in their breed. They, along with breed clubs and kennel clubs are responsible for breed standards and are responsible for the interpretation of breed standards. Breed standards often alude to temperament traits desireable in a breed that make the dog more difficult to socialise and therefore even more difficult to fulfill its likely role, that of companion animal.
> 
> I'm not anti-pedigree dogs, in fact I am a pedigree fan but I want them to be healthy and happy.
> 
> ...


I've been showing a few years now and can honestly say i've never seen such well rounded, well socialised dogs as show dogs. Take an Open Dog class, you generally have older dogs, many of which will have been used at stud and they will all be mingling and sniffing each other quite happily without so much as a hint of aggression or dominance while stewards and handlers sort out ring numbers and who's going first :lol: If thats not a sign of good socialisation I dont know what is :thumbup:

Re. letting unvaccinated dogs interact with others, each to their own on that I suppose... But I would never in a million years allow any dog of mine to come into contact with other dogs I dont know the history of. For me, its not worth the risk, i've not had any issues socialising my dogs at 12+ weeks so I wouldnt risk them contracting a potentially fatal disease for the sake of a few weeks. Its one thing for them to be around my own dogs who are all healthy and vaccinated, but never would I allow them around others. Especially a breed as small as a chihuahua, if that got Kennel Cough or Parvo at 8 weeks it wouldnt stand a chance! But thats just my personal view, I wouldnt criticise someone who chose to do it as its their choice and their risk.


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## The3DChis (Jan 17, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i've worked with many Chis, they're common in the USA - with well-known, common failings,
> like overattachment to one person, lap-piranhas, barking fools at arrivals, snapping at strangers
> who attempt to pick them up, etc.  all seen often, no surprises there.
> 
> ...


LOL what you see as failings in a chi, well most of it, i see as a plus!
I love my 'Lap Piranahs' as you call it.
I also love the fact they are bonded to me so much and prefer me over anyone else, i do everythng for them and they love me for it.
I chose that breed for that very reason and it is NOT a negative in anyway.
They do like other people though, but they LOVE me. 
I also like that they warn me of strangers approaching the house.
I do control it though, just like i would any dog.

Sounds to me like you dont care much for this breed or their owners and generalise so much in your statements.
You know about the ones YOU have come across or heard about, you dont know ALL of them.
They are small dogs with huge personalities!!
Mine dont snap at anyone and neither have any others i have met.

I also have Huskies with amazing qualities about them, that you would most likely say are failings aswell.
To be honest i wouldnt bring my dogs to someone like you who has a very narrow minded aproach to animals and people alike!
You already have in your mind they are problem dogs form the start.

You defo need to take a chill pill.
Just MY opinion. :lol:


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2011)

The3DChis said:


> LOL what you see as failings in a chi, well most of it, i see as a plus!
> I love my 'Lap Piranahs' as you call it.
> I also love the fact they are bonded to me so much and prefer me over anyone else, i do everythng for them and they love me for it.
> I chose that breed for that very reason and it is NOT a negative in anyway.
> ...


I do agree with you on this.
In shelties excessive barking is almost a promise at some point during their life I do not see the excessive barking as a fault at all as it lets me know if someones around late at night or if the post mans at the door or when the dog food delivery guy is at the door.
Its also a plus for me as its a great welcome home for them to let you know you have been missed.

What some people see as faults are great traits to others.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Jess2308 said:


> I've been showing a few years now and can honestly say i've never seen such well rounded, well socialised dogs as show dogs. Take an Open Dog class, you generally have older dogs, many of which will have been used at stud and they will all be mingling and sniffing each other quite happily without so much as a hint of aggression or dominance while stewards and handlers sort out ring numbers and who's going first :lol: If thats not a sign of good socialisation I dont know what is :thumbup:
> 
> Re. letting unvaccinated dogs interact with others, each to their own on that I suppose... But I would never in a million years allow any dog of mine to come into contact with other dogs I dont know the history of. For me, its not worth the risk, i've not had any issues socialising my dogs at 12+ weeks so I wouldnt risk them contracting a potentially fatal disease for the sake of a few weeks. Its one thing for them to be around my own dogs who are all healthy and vaccinated, but never would I allow them around others. Especially a breed as small as a chihuahua, if that got Kennel Cough or Parvo at 8 weeks it wouldnt stand a chance! But thats just my personal view, I wouldnt criticise someone who chose to do it as its their choice and their risk.


I have been attending shows since I was 9 and yes i have seen lots of well socialised dogs. I have also seen an equal share of dogs who are tolerant but not enjoying handling/contact; I see a larger proportion of dogs that are not good at coping with the arousal caused by such gatherings. And as shows get bigger, here anyway, this is really alarminly on the increase.

Sometimes I just concentrate on one or two dogs and watch their signaling :scared: very upsetting. Then watch their handlers jerking and checking them :scared: :

And just regarding your last comment, I never suggested, nor would I suggest to introduce puppies to dogs of unknown background. I stated healthy dogs - as in dogs who's health history with whom you are familiar. This is why we are so careful about entrants and history of puppys at puppy class.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

> LOL what you see as failings in a chi, well most of it, i see as a plus!
> I love my 'Lap Piranahs' as you call it.
> I also love the fact they are bonded to me so much and prefer me over anyone else, i do everythng for them and they love me for it.
> I chose that breed for that very reason and it is NOT a negative in anyway.
> ...


I like the cut of your jib.... Feel just the same about my Chi. They are a breed that for some reason can bring out the worst in people. It's not unusual for me to get abuse from members of the general public about my dog, which sounds just absurd but it's true. Maybe it's just the area. Never happened with any of the others- even a rottie x. I used to just accept it but when perfect strangers insult Henri and say things like "Get a real dog!" I tell them to go **** or they'll get a real fist up their arse in a minute. Apologies for crudeness but there's only so much you can take before you "chihuahua snap". Born that way I guess.


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## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

The3DChis said:


> LOL what you see as failings in a chi, well most of it, i see as a plus!
> I love my 'Lap Piranahs' as you call it.
> I also love the fact they are bonded to me so much and prefer me over anyone else, i do everythng for them and they love me for it.
> I chose that breed for that very reason and it is NOT a negative in anyway.
> ...


Totally agree we all choose a breed for a reason they fit perfectly into my life mine are bonded with me and my daughter to the point Lotus goes running into my daughters room in the mornings and whines for her to get up and cuddle her!!

I love that my dogs favourite place is my lap, I lovethat they can come everywhere with me both girls are extremely friendly one needsto warm up to people (she is the reason this tread started.. Famous little chi) but daisy is the happiest friendliest dog on earth!'

I am a single mum and love that they make a racket if someone goes past my house makes me feel a lot safer knowing of someone came near my noise their is going to be a lot of noise which I hope would deter them!!

A lot of people see chihuahua owners like bimbos whilst I can't speak for everyone I will say that everyone I've met (including at champ shows) are far from it!!

They were bred for companionship... Says a lot about the breed really!

Let's not bash the little dogs they may just nip your ankles


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Leashed for life have you ever been wrong on anything


yes - as the most recent example, just now.  i thought that pointing-out there is a *critical period* 
for socialization and that it cannot be done 'any old time' would explain my reasoning to *jess - 
i was wrong. [shrug] darn!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> yes - as the most recent example, just now.  i thought that pointing-out there is a *critical period*
> for socialization and that it cannot be done 'any old time' would explain my reasoning to *jess -
> i was wrong. [shrug] darn!


Nice one :thumbsup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> I'll put it to a test then LFL
> 
> If Duke hears me when I whisper sit, I'mma rep you.
> Granted, he can hear the food bin open when he's in another country, but we shall see!


thank U very kindly, i got my rep today. :thumbup: and i am glad to know Ur dog has normal hearing, too.


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## The3DChis (Jan 17, 2011)

jenniferx said:


> I like the cut of your jib.... Feel just the same about my Chi. They are a breed that for some reason can bring out the worst in people. It's not unusual for me to get abuse from members of the general public about my dog, which sounds just absurd but it's true. Maybe it's just the area. Never happened with any of the others- even a rottie x. I used to just accept it but when perfect strangers insult Henri and say things like "Get a real dog!" I tell them to go **** or they'll get a real fist up their arse in a minute. Apologies for crudeness but there's only so much you can take before you "chihuahua snap". Born that way I guess.


Thankyou! rep for you. lol
Exactly! what gives these ignorant people the right to come out with such crap?!
I am lucky i have only had cheeky comments a couple of times.
A couple of footy fans on the way back from the game (i live near a stadium) and one says oh i could have one of those in a sandwich, and i said, it looks like you have had one sanny too many already mate! haha!!

Most people we meet around here love the chis.
They say they are crackin wee dogs. lol
Some are surprised at how friendly they are cause of a preconceived idea too.

We have also had folk cross the road when we have been out with the huskies, cause oooh big scary lookin wolf thing!!!. 
People shouldnt be so quick to judge, but they are sadly.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Spot on. Which is why they're not for everyone.
> 
> Unfortunately, so many confuse the "Collies are intelligent" thing with "Collies are easy". A bored/untrained clever dog is FAR more likely to go self-employed/amuse itself than a not-so-clever one - especially if it's a WORKY clever dog.


Among others...I have had BC's and Dalmatians .. I alway get Dalamtians, are you mad, thick as two short planks them, can never be trained nutty completely useless..
Guess what neither is harder or easier than the other, just very different...
:thumbsup:

If you don't employ a collie he finds work for himself, if you don't pay well, a dalmatian won't work.... sums them both up perfectly...IMO


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

northnsouth said:


> If you don't employ a Collie, he finds work for himself.
> if you don't pay well, a Dalmatian won't work....
> sums them both up perfectly... IMO


i LIKE that - cool! :thumbup:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tripod said:


> If this is the advice of the breed club than it may well be responsible for the large number
> of stand-offish, difficult-to-socialise Chi and Chi mixes that I see


sadly, i think this is very possible.  holding one's litters for 3 solid months, *unless the breeder is actively 
socializing the pups,* is a potential disaster which can have lifelong consequences - 
and it does not matter if the pup is a Chi, a Chinook, or a Cane Corso, it's true for any breed or mix. 


tripod said:


> I don't have a problem with breeders releasing their puppies late regardless of breed -
> in fact I am a fan of natural and late weaning. *BUT* only providing that the puppies are raised in
> an environment that is supportive of intensive but gentle socialisation.
> ...as I work in behaviour, the most difficult nuts to crack [re] early socialisation practices are breeders.
> ...


yes - that's why NO puppy-mill can possibly rear good, healthy, happy, confident pups who are familiar 
with human-environs [houses, car-rides, kids, home noises...] and people of all sorts + sizes. 
*it's too labor-intensive, and each pup is a separate individual who needs lessons.* no-one can socialize 40 pups, 
all born in a week to 10-days, to 6 different bitches of 6 breeds. It's insane - a 2-WO pup is not a 4-WO pup. 
they need different lessons as they age, and their needs change daily.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

I've been looking into German Shepherds and have seen so many beautiful pups, but unfortunately most of them are 11 or 12 weeks old, so it's a big no no. I'm not taking any chances on bad socialization for a dog thats renowned as needing early socialization and is going to get very big, very powerful and capable of being a complete and utter nuisance! It just made me very say because the reality is most of those pups will probably put down. What is wrong with these breeders?!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

> I've been looking into German Shepherds


Torch or X-Ray?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Reading all this thread I do think Leashedforlife has a skewed perspective. If your only experience of dog breeds comes from what you have owned or what you have seen professionally (when the dogs are stressed or coming to you for bad behaviour) you may not appreciate what people find normal and acceptable about certain breeds.
I have 2 and a half (half daxie!!) lovely Chi's and both the full Chis were picked up at 12weeks. Neither is perfect.
One takes on the typical watchdog characteristic of the breed, barking at strangers in the distance, strange noises in the house, often looking like a meerkat on walks as she stands on her hind legs surveying the landscape!. She also hides behind me with strange dogs. Im not unduly bothered by this, as given enough time she will climb onto anybodys lap for a cuddle.
The other merrily goes to say hello to any dog and will throw himself into the arms of small children and old ladies alike. He loves everyone and everything and on the rare occassion he has been accidently squashed or squeezed too hard he never tries to bite.
Guess which one causes me more concern??
I would always say a breed forum or breed owners are the best people to talk to about problems becase they have a unique insight as to what that breed is like, both in stressful situations like training/rehoming centres/grooming palours and when they are happy at home.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> Reading all this thread I do think Leashedforlife has a skewed perspective.
> If your only experience of dog breeds comes from what you have owned or what you have seen professionally
> (when the dogs are stressed or coming to you for bad behaviour) you may not appreciate what people find normal
> and acceptable about certain breeds.


i've met lovely, well-socialized Chis, too - altho obviously, the ones who come for B-Mod have some behavior 
that their owners are bothered by, which can be anything from fears to sep-anx or aggro to nuisance-barking, 
and can be any breed or mix - including Who-Knows-What, which can be fun to guess. 

natch, the ones with problem-behaviors are not the perfect-pet breed fans would choose as ambassadors, 
but it is good to know what sort of predictable tiger-traps there might be, in a dog's future with U - *forewarned*, 
as they say, *is forearmed.* if U know that Shelties can have a timid streak and are often barking-fools, 
U'll look for a calm, friendly dam who enjoys attention from friendly strangers, not a pup whose dam 
runs into the kitchen when U enter the living-room, and barks furiously from her 'safe-place' under the table. :nonod: 
it's about avoiding the heritable patterns, or the ones resulting from inadequate socialization or isolation 
from human-spaces [houses, cars, yards, sidewalks,...] - stacking the odds in the dog's favor, *and yours,* 
for a long, happy life together.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Liquidsunshine said:


> I've been looking into German Shepherds and have seen so many beautiful pups, but unfortunately most of them are 11 or 12 weeks old, so it's a big no no. I'm not taking any chances on bad socialization for a dog thats renowned as needing early socialization and is going to get very big, very powerful and capable of being a complete and utter nuisance! It just made me very say because the reality is most of those pups will probably put down. What is wrong with these breeders?!


So what you are saying then is that if you get a dog after 8weeks then you run a risk of having a nightmare dog. This accounts for every single rescue dog out there then.

Just because you get your pup at 8 weeks gives no guarantee of the "perfect dog". It might increase your chances slightly but it is no guarantee.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Liquidsunshine said:


> I've been looking into German Shepherds and have seen so many beautiful pups, but unfortunately most of them are 11 or 12 weeks old, so it's a big no no. I'm not taking any chances on bad socialization for a dog thats renowned as needing early socialization and is going to get very big, very powerful and capable of being a complete and utter nuisance! It just made me very say because the reality is most of those pups will probably put down. What is wrong with these breeders?!


Both my retriever and one of my newfies was 13 weeks when they came to me. I may have been lucky in that they were from good breeders who socialised them, but I don't think it is ever really too late anyway. Never had any problems in the socialisation part with either of them.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think that genetics (parents temperament rather then breed) plays a massive role in development and behaviour. I mean someone could get a pup at 6 weeks and socialize them 24/7 but if they live in a tiny village with very few people and hardly any traffic that dog may well grow up less socialized then one that has hardly been out of the front garden of a busy household in a built up area.
Having said that there are always exceptions.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

Colliepoodle- you made me laugh! Maybe I should try doing that, might have more success


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

What I was saying was that from what I've heard about GSD's early socialisation is important because they can become aggressive towards strangers who they deem as a threat to their family otherwise. I've never had a GSD personally, so I'm going by whatever info I can get on the breed. As it is, a lot of the breeders I've come across are rearing the dogs outside with little or no socialisation and then selling the dogs at 12 weeks, which wouldn't give me even a week in what I've read is a key socialisation period. As for rehoming a GSD- I have nothing against it, after all I would need to know the specific background of each dog before I could either accept or reject, all though most shelters I've contacted have said most of their dogs would require an experienced GSD handler (which I am not) or a home without Young children. As I have a young daughter, I don't want to take the chance in getting a dog that hasn't been socialised or isn't used to children. If I can't find a breeder who has socialised the pups at all, I would prefer to get a pup at 8 weeks so that I could socialise it. Personal preference. At least I would know that if there were any problems, it wouldn't be down to lack of socialisation, but an oversight of my training. I'm not saying that anyone who doesn't get a dog at 8 weeks is going to have a nightmare. But unless breeders are socialising dogs, I don't understand why they are keeping puppies until 12 weeks.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> ...you are saying... if you get a [PUPPY] after 8-WO then you run a risk of having a nightmare dog. This accounts for every single rescue dog out there then.


no - that's an exaggeration. 
rescue-dogs who come into shelters, breed rescues, etc, may have been very thoroughly socialized and can be 
very well habituated; they may have lived with owners who took them to many different places, 
where they met many different people of various ages, sizes, ethic groups, diets, cultures, able/disabled, 
many sorts + sizes of dogs, cats, saw livestock, etc - many rescue-dogs are terrific pets, confident, friendly, 
outgoing with people and dogs, comfortable in many settings, and so on.

if the puppy Is Not Well-Socialized and stays with a breeder *who does not specifically tackle socializing, 
and who keeps the pups till they're 11 or 12-WO,* that breeder is doing their pups no favors whatever.

similarly, a litter which lives behind a skip with their dam coming + going to feed herself and nurse her pups, 
and the pups hide each time people come near, AND THAT LITTER IS NOT removed from that circumstance 
and socialized beginning as close to 7 or 8-WO as possible, all will be extremely shy of humans - especially if that litter 
stays in that setting 'til they are 12-WO or older.


hutch6 said:


> Just b/c you get your pup at 8-WO gives no guarantee of the "perfect dog".
> It might increase your chances slightly but it is no guarantee.


it increases one's chances more than 'slightly'. 
even fearful pups with a strong heritable timidity can be altered, and the sooner they get that B-mod begun, 
the better the prognosis for an outcome.

just because a pup is shy is no reason to give-up and say, _this pup will grow-up to be a hopelessly shy dog; 
we'll have to keep her/him at home, there will be no happy beach or park excursions, we'll need an in-house sitter 
anytime we go out of town, it's going to be so complicated... and there is no point in getting this puppy._

that's absolutely not true - pups born shy CAN become less fearful, but the longer we wait, the less likely 
any real, large change becomes. ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL - don't deliberately choose a very-shy pup, 
unless U are willing to live with a shy-dog; but don't just take them home and swaddle them in cotton-batting, 
they can improve. *How-Much they can improve depends on a huge set of variables.*

NORMAL happy pups w/o any inherited timid-streak *are made timid* by missing their critical period. 
if they *never see or meet a person til they're past 12-WO*, it's extremely unlikely, even with B-mod, even with 
OTC-calmatives, quite possibly even with a vet-behaviorist and psych-meds, they may not become friendly. 
if they do accept any persons, it may be a very short + select list - not strangers, no matter how friendly; 
U have to audition and be accepted. if U move too fast, talk too loud, are unpredictable or moody - 
U won't be that dog's friend; they'll avoid U and hide or retreat from contact.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Liquidsunshine said:


> ...a lot of the [GSD-]breeders I've come across [rear their pups outside
> with little or no socialisation and then [sell the pups] at 12-WO, which wouldn't give me even a week in what I've read is a key socialisation period.


i wouldn't want any guarding-breed pup from such a background - or for that matter, any pup of any breed. 


Liquidsunshine said:


> As for rehoming a GSD- I have nothing against it, after all
> would need to know the specific background of each dog before I could either accept or reject..


check to see if anyone is looking to retire a show-dog to a pet-home - these dogs are often very well socialized, 
and may love being the only dog, having been one of a crowd for their 1st three to 5 years or more.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

Thanks leashedforlife, wouldn't have even thought about retired show dogs. That's something I'll have to enquire about!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> you may not appreciate what people find normal
> and acceptable about certain breeds.


I think it is more that people have different ideas about what is 'acceptable' behaviour regardless of breed. The vast majority of pets are poorly trained, but they muddle along, accepting the negative behaviours and perhaps making excuses for them that it's a 'breed trait'.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> *snip* different ideas about what is 'acceptable' behaviour regardless of breed *snip* accepting the negative behaviours and perhaps making excuses for them that it's a 'breed trait'.


Hit the nail on the head there rocco - rep on the way :thumbup:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i am pointing out the many common patterns of behavior, across breeds and within groups -
> herding breeds chase moving objects, guarding breeds are likely to resource-guard,
> and gundogs will gladly eat themselves into blimphood, given the chance.
> 
> ...


I think at best this is a generalisation, and at worst it is the kind of stereotyping of breeds that ultimately ends in the kind of mind-set that insists, "Oh-oh- watch out - staffies/rotties/akitas/whatever are dangerous". How can we ever hope to convince politicians to "blame the deed, not the breed," when people who supposedly have experience of animals stereotype breeds in this way?

As others have already pointed out Terry, this is what you get by researching a breed as opposed to hands-on experience of a breed. Those of us with more than one of a particular breed will know at once that no two dogs of the same breed act the same, let alone two dogs of the same group. I own border collies and bergamaschi - both from the pastoral group (or herding group as I think you call it in the USA) and their outlook on life and the way they react to outside stimuli are vastly different.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sparkle said:


> And FYI, [for the] last few days my Chihuahua has stood like a pro whilst people passed
> *and I treated her*, oh dear - bad me


um - i presume U missed it, but that was *precisely* what i suggested - 
that she be in the presence of strangers, but that *You - not the stranger!* - give the treat.

this accomplishes the good-association: Stranger = happy-things, 
without the too-close-for-comfort exposure, and possible snatch-and-run or eat-then-bark.

glad to hear she's doing better! :thumbup: good on ya.


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## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> um - i presume U missed it, but that was *precisely* what i suggested -
> that she be in the presence of strangers, but that *You - not the stranger!* - give the treat.
> 
> this accomplishes the good-association: Stranger = happy-things,
> ...


I still get strangers to give her treats - strangers hands = yummy food.. Has worked well

You may mean well by your posts but they come across rude and condescending especially to newbies on the forum. Whether or not you care is up to you but it's not welcoming at all. You started this thread because you got stood up to.. And it appeared like you were/are sniping my handling of MY dog and Jess' response about the breed.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> ...this is what you get by researching a breed as opposed to hands-on experience of a breed.


errm, SW - i've known *many* Chihuahuas in my lifetime, and have hands-on experience of many. 
i need not have *owned* a breed to have known [or trained or done B-Mod] with many.

a GSD chasing the cat and a BC chasing the cat and an Aussie chasing the cat *have something in common* 
besides being dogs - all dogs tend to chase; *herding breeds are motion-reactive*; it's a type-trait.

there is no mandatory requirement that trainers must own, breed, whelp, rear, or bury after long lives, 
*every breed* on which we have opinions or suggestions, in order for our opinion or suggestion to be valid. 
shyness is a known behavior; so is sep-anx, aggro, nuisance-barking; *all puppies* have a critical socialization 
period - so do kittens, whose window of opportunity closes even earlier than pups.

these are not silly personal hypotheses - there is plenty of research to prove critical periods exist. 
*a human-child who does not hear language by X-age will not learn to speak. 
that is a fact; that is a critical-period for language in humans.

a puppy who is not human-reared and does not meet a human until past 12-WO is feral. 
that pup will be extremely difficult to habituate to human-settings [house, car, etc] and will befriend 
or trust very, very few people in their lifetime. if their isolation from humans persists to 16-WO, it will be 
virtually impossible to make a pet of this dog - U will be living with a feral-animal, who may choose 
one or 2 persons as 'safe', but will not freely approach anyone else. U cannot recreate their infancy 
and make them human-friendly, trusting and affectionate; that time is gone.*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sparkle said:


> You started this thread because you got stood up to...


no, ma'am - i started this thread because it is IMO asinine to insist that 
_"No-One who does not own, breed, whelp, rear, compete with in the show-ring, have working-certificates with, 
etc, could *possibly* know anything about My Breed - which is utterly unique and has nothing in common 
with any other dog-breed, anywhere in the world, whatever."_

it's not true; resource-guarding in one breed is very, very like RG in another. 
shy-dogs and shy-pups of all breeds can be made worse by these things, and helped by those things. 
separation anxiety is *more common* in some breeds, and less in others - but Can Occur in any; 
and there are specific risk-factors for sep-anx, like multiple homes before the dog reaches 12-MO. 
Weimareners happen to be extremely-prone to sep-anx; this is due to the gene-bottleneck of WW-2, 
but it does not mean that *all Weims are doomed to sep-anx - * U can even train to prevent it.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> no, ma'am - i started this thread because it is IMO asinine to insist that
> _"No-One who does not own, breed, whelp, rear, compete with in the show-ring, have working-certificates with,
> etc, could *possibly* know anything about My Breed - which is utterly unique and has nothing in common
> with any other dog-breed, anywhere in the world, whatever."_


Oh, get a grip  No one said any such thing, and to write it as a quote to imply they have is rather naughty 

I cant believe this ridiculous thread is still going on. I think it would be best to let the child continue throwing its toys out of the pram alone :lol: I've never known anyone act out for DAYS because someone disagreed with them - crazy


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> a GSD chasing the cat and a BC chasing the cat and an Aussie chasing the cat *have something in common*
> besides being dogs - all dogs tend to chase; *herding breeds are motion-reactive*; it's a type-trait.


As I said (and as you have chosen to ignore) this is mere generalisation, and I would expect an animal trainer of any repute to know this. As I also said, I have two different breeds of dogs within this group. I also own cats - if what you are saying is true, my cats would be long gone now. My border collies don't chase anything - they do run circles round both animals and people in an attempt to move them closer together, but that is not chasing. My bergamaschi don't even do that - but they do watch out for strangers and warn us when any approach. So that is two breeds from the same group that have totally different approaches to life - no "type trait" there. Yes, they are motion-reactive, but that does not mean they chase. Border collies see animals/people moving and herd them; bergamaschi see animals/people moving and warn that something is happening.

On the other hand, I used to own cocker spaniels - and they were always chasing after anything that moved. So there you have it - two examples of the pastoral (herding) group who don't chase, and an example from a different group that does.

So where does that leave your type traits? Actual experience and knowledge sorta knocks your theory into a cocked hat, doesn't it?


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> As I said (and as you have chosen to ignore) this is mere generalisation, and I would expect an animal trainer of any repute to know this. As I also said, I have two different breeds of dogs within this group. I also own cats - if what you are saying is true, my cats would be long gone now. My border collies don't chase anything - they do run circles round both animals and people in an attempt to move them closer together, but that is not chasing. My bergamaschi don't even do that - but they do watch out for strangers and warn us when any approach. So that is two breeds from the same group that have totally different approaches to life - no "type trait" there. Yes, they are motion-reactive, but that does not mean they chase. Border collies see animals/people moving and herd them; bergamaschi see animals/people moving and warn that something is happening.
> 
> On the other hand, I used to own cocker spaniels - and they were always chasing after anything that moved. So there you have it - two examples of the pastoral (herding) group who don't chase, and an example from a different group that does.
> 
> So where does that leave your type traits? Actual experience and knowledge sorta knocks your theory into a cocked hat, doesn't it?


:thumbsup:

I have a basenji that, if you are stereotyping them, must never, ever be let off the lead as they will run and run and run if they start chasing something. Mine gets an offlead walk in the farmland EVERY day and has a perfect recall even if she does have a chase after a bunny.

I think its very poor for a so-called professional dog trainer to have such a blinkered view of breeds/groups. They are just like us, all individuals, and need to be treated as such. And I stand by what I said in the last thread, the best people to give advice on training are those who have good, solid experience of a breed and its unique traits.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

any *chasing dog* has a lot in common with any other chasing dog - of any breed. 
any *shy dog* has more in common with other shy-dogs than with the behavior of normal or bold dogs. 
any *resource-guarding dog* has that behavior in common with other dogs who guard - whatever it is, 
their yard, crate, bowl, bone, personal space, body-part [often pain], etc.

what one does to teach a new behavior, or reduce or redirect an unwanted one, has more to do 
with *behavior* than *breed - * teaching an impulsive or exuberant dog self-control is the same, 
whether that dog is a Flab-Lab, Pomeranian or Dane - the main difference is that with the Pom, 
U must be willing to bend-over or work with the dog on an elevated surface.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I am astounded by this thread. Not quite sure why as sadly I have always held Leashed for Life in rather poor esteem. but I do agree with one thing. Puppies should go to their new homes at around 8 weeks as that is when they need to socialise and to get used to the things they will have to have in their lives. I have had a pup at about 20 weeks, she was kennel kept when I got her and she took a lot of getting used to people and was never sound with strangers. I have had another at 4 months who was very nervous and for about a year would leak all over the place every time a man came into the house. Rescue dogs are something else altogether, they have probably been socialised at 8 weeks but have different problems to get over.

I know nothing about chis, I cant imagine why they are different from any other breed, but if the experienced chi owners are telling me they are I will have to believe them.

I am totally shocked by leashed for lifes comment on spaying a bitch that is about to come in season. How absolutely irresponsible and how lacking in any knowledge. Luckily no vet would do it though. I know you like them spayed at 4 months or younger but to me that is a totally horrendous idea and I think most people would be disgusted by it and it would immediately put your knowledge of dogs and attitude towards them as suspect.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I am totally shocked by [Terry's] comment on spaying a bitch that is about to come in season.


*a - * we don't know she's coming in season; we have a hunch from a novice bitch-owner.  


Blitz said:


> How absolutely irresponsible and how lacking in any knowledge. Luckily no vet would do it though.


*b - * the vet would be the one to decide - *if she is actually entering estrus,* the vet would not 
spay her; if she is NOT, there is no reason not to spay a 7-MO toy-breed who is over-80% her adult-size. 


Blitz said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> I know *you like them spayed at 4-MO or younger* but to me that is a totally horrendous idea...


that is utterly untrue - i *prefer* the bitch-pup who will not be bred, is spayed before her first-heat - 
6-Mo or even 7-Mo or older is fine, so long as it is before her first-estrus, which eliminates virtually 
100% of the risk of mammary-cancer, which affects approx 40% of intact-bitches - a far-higher risk 
than in human-females.  there is IMO no reason to keep a male or female intact who will not be bred, 
or who will not compete in activities which *require the dog to be sexually intact - * if the dog is a pet, 
and will not be shown or competed, what is the point of keeping them intact? :huh: 
that the owner has no intention to breed and will not be doing gene-screens, OFA-rads, etc, 
will not prevent an unscrupulous person from taking the dog and breeding them - in case U have forgotten, 
there was a kid on here who intended to 'borrow' a Forum-member's dog to 'walk' with his family's pup, 
when she had her first-heat - to say *that* was a bad-idea is the understatement of the month, 
possibly of the season!


Blitz said:


> ...I think most people would be disgusted by it and it would immediately put your knowledge of dogs
> and attitude towards them as suspect.


my 'attitude' toward dogs is that they are our responsibility; their care, health, exercise, social-opps, 
education, fun, socialization to humans and other living-beings, habituation to human environs, and more, 
all comes down to -us-. Dogs are utterly dependent on us - and we have to be worthy of that responsibility, 
and that trust.

my 'knowledge of dogs' includes the knowledge that despite the best intentions of pet-owners, 
every intact-bitch who comes into her maiden-heat is another opportunity for an unplanned litter - 
and *sabotage* is not rare; a kennel-operator who breeds Flatcoats had a staffer who turned an intact 
male-BC loose with an in-heat Flatcoat-bitch :scared: yes, it was deliberate; yes, this was an adult - 
not a kid; YES, the staffer wanted a pup, and *got TWO?* from the resulting litter!

* why didn't the kennel-owner [and bitch-owner] get the post-mate injection and PREVENT the litter? 
i have no idea - i cannot even guess, it seems ridiculous.

* *why did the kennel-owner GIVE the staffer not one, but 2 of the pups?* 
again, i have no idea; it seems like wages for wickedness, this person put her dog at risk for a mating 
with no screening, not even a Bangs-disease/Brucellosis test; she could have miscarried, been sterile, 
had a problem-whelping and needed a Caesarian - anything could have happened; the safety 
and the future of her well-bred maiden-bitch was risked for a mixed-breed litter of 7 pups.

* why did the kennel-owner / dam-owner *euthanize 5 pups?!* again, no idea.  if she insisted 
on letting her dam carry the litter, killing 5 healthy pups vs finding good homes is beyond me. 
she claimed the dogs would be 'too difficult' for pet-homes; that seems unlikely in the extreme.

with pet-owners, simple lack of basic precautions results in most unplanned litters: 
leaving the bitch outside alone [even in a fenced yard], taking her out and letting her run off-leash, 
assuming they can prevent a dog from accosting or mounting her - letting her mark all over the nearby 
neighborhood, bringing intact-Ms to the doorstep in response to her urinary-billboards... 
*leaving the dog-door UNlocked, so dogs who enter the yard can enter the house?* 
putting an in-heat bitch into an UNroofed pen with only 6-foot fencing?

ergo, not having an open-heat is the safest option, with bitches who are not breeding-quality 
and / or are not wanted to be bred; once desexed, the risk of an unplanned litter is nil. :thumbup:

now, *if the owner is debating the quality of the bitch-pup and wants to wait to see her development, 
that is perfectly apropos; she needs to be screened, she needs to reach 2-YO before her 1st-mating, 
she needs to be seen at 2-YO by a vet-opthalmologist and certified free of heritable defects, 
to meet her breed-standard, have a good temperament, be social with humans and other dogs, 
have good rebound from stress, have good structure confirmed by radiographs, etc. 
waiting thru at least 5 to 6 heats minimum is the only way to get there; if she fails at any point, 
such as developing skin-issues and heritable allergies, or becoming severely sound-sensitive at 12 to 15-MO, 
she is no longer a candidate for breeding. * but U had to wait and see, to be sure.

patience is crucial for breeders; ethics are imperative - testing to verify and waiting until 24-MO 
are the minimum for preventing heritable problems in their pups.

by 24-MO, 85% of all *heritable-issues which will be symptomatic in this dog - * 
'affected', in breeding parlance - will be visible. 
carriers OTOH can only be identified by gene-screens [blood or cheek-swabs] or other tissue: skin-punches, 
thyroid-panels, etc - OR *by detailed and truthful breeding-history of relatives - * open registries, 
or private records - and i think open-registries will become both inevitable and mandatory, soon. 
far too-few breeders are willing to tell other breeders, _'that dog's grandsire developed epilepsy at 5-YO',_ 
or _'my champion-GSD is her uncle, and he has spinal-myelopathy, now...'_ 
they are chary of sharing info, which is not optional; it's imperative, in a closed-registry system.

JMO + IME, 
- terry


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> *a - * we don't know she's coming in season; we have a hunch from a novice bitch-owner.
> 
> *b - * the vet would be the one to decide - *if she is actually entering estrus,* the vet would not
> spay her; if she is NOT, there is no reason not to spay a 7-MO toy-breed who is over-80% her adult-size.
> ...


Wonderful, a lesson on breeding now 

I would never, ever consider spaying or neutering before 2 yrs old unless in exceptional circumstances. The hormones removed by early neutering are essential to correct growth.

I dont know what on earth the "staffer" thing has to do with the chi owner (who is not a "novice" dog owner and knows when is best to neuter her dog  ), or anything for that matter??? I find your posts incredibly confusing, all the bolding and irratic use of paragraphing and grammar, it gives me a headache...!!!

And, lets not forget, you TOLD her to spay her bitch before even questioning whether she planned to show or breed it and then practically called her an irresponsible owner for not spaying it in the same sentence.

Your judgemental, holier than thou attitude is a disgrace to all dog trainers, you remind me of a certain well known american dog trainer who thinks his way is the only way and forces opinions down peoples throats. I imagine you would get on well with him :lol: You seem to regurgitate a lot of other peoples experiences and opinions, I do wonder how much is your own knowledge, certainly from the few threads I have read you seem to be somewhat lacking, and it would appear im not the only one to think that!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> You seem to regurgitate a lot of other peoples experiences and opinions, I do wonder
> how much is your own knowledge, certainly from the few threads I have read you seem to be somewhat lacking..


oh, we're not supposed to quote respected sources, cite articles, mention known trainers, researchers, 
mentors, role-models, etc?  silly me - i had no idea i was supposed to single-handedly *re-invent* 
dog-training and behavioral science, all by my insignificant, ignorant self.

some of my sources + resources, in no particular order - 
mark bekoff 
karen pryor 
john fisher 
ian dunbar 
trish mcConnell 
tamar geller 
pat miller 
jean donaldson 
bob bailey 
KikoPup AKA emily larlham 
september morn 
andrea arden 
trish macmillan 
diane garrod 
dan estep 
sophia yin 
karen overall 
temple grandin 
barb handelman 
canis academy 
teoti anderson 
debbie jacobs 
turid rugaas 
steven lindsay 
the Dog Giggler 
sue ailsby 
Levels.html

pleasant dreams...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> What colliePoodle says is very true.
> I have a Border Collie from working lines. People often ask about him on walks because I tend to get him
> ...


yes - don't U love it when they think this was all effortless & as automatic as breathing?  
but i do think teaching any dog to use their brain, as early as possible, also makes for more fun for both: 
the owner / family has a dog who does more than eat, greet, cuddle & poop, & the dog has a larger life, too.

genuine brainiac dogs can be a real trial, especially for APOs who lack interest in using that k9-brain; 
i often see super-smart dogs dumped at the shelter *because* they're smart, get bored & get into stuff. 


lemmsy said:


> What Terry says about breed specific tendencies is also true. ...of course, there is always
> going to be a certain degree of variation within any breed; IME for example some show bred BCs are less likely
> to have such a strong "eye" & working ability. Although... of course many breeders these days... breed purely
> for dog sports such as agility, flyball & obedience.


oh, definitely - type is a tendency, but not iron-clad.

it tends to be the problem-behaviors that are typical of a breed that get the most attention, & i think it's 
a real shame that folks don't consider the oral-fixations of Retrievers before getting that adorable Lab-pup, 
or the likelihood of chasing when they get a BC-pup & already *have* cats, or horses, or poultry...

one client of mine was shocked when her adopted-adult Aussie - *Australian Shepherd* :lol: - 
chased her chickens, ducks & geese!  heck, i'd have been surprised if he hadn't, & thanked my stars, 
that being a clear divine intervention, given the odds. They did succeed in getting good control over him, 
but she really did think that leaving him off-leash as she did chores should be possible from the 1st-day, 
with no training needed... Surprise!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> genuine brainiac dogs can be a real trial, especially for APOs who lack interest in using that k9-brain;
> i often see super-smart dogs dumped


Too right! See the BC are special and unlike any other breed 
because that very first training task is to unlearn them a whole load of behaviours, like rounding up the neighbour's kids or eying up the next meal, circling like a shark YouTube - Border collie herding kittens

Then of course there's the joys of learning in 1 trial, whenever it's something undesirable, no luxury of a few goes to see it's a bad idea.. nope they geddit immediately!

They are a trial, cos' they find every loop hole, and are constantly training the owners; you know I can throw a Dog Frisbee Ring further now than most ppl have ever seen; and after 4 1/2 hours cycling and 10 mins nap he's ready to go all over again... :cryin: :cryin:

Then if you get a Strong-eyed dog, there's all the study of WSD training books you end up doing, written for farmers trying to figure out what the hell's going on.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Good thing I dont mention my Chihuahuas habit of merrily saying hello to every dog he meets and ignoring his own safety as he is so keen on getting cuddles from strange kids and toddlers he just wouldnt get it!!
Leashed for life;"does not compute!!!":blink:
*head explodes*
:lol:


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

As someone who has spent a lot of time trying to undo the damage done by "canine behaviourists" on dogs whose breed traits they choose to deny or ignore, I find the arrogance (and ignorance) of such individuals increasingly hard to take.
I spent 40 years in the human "caring professions" watching liberal PC social workers rail against discipline and help to produce the generation of "feral" children who now inhabit our estates and inner cities. 

It must be so satisfying to know it all and to be able to look down upon everyone else with scorn!
You will excuse my cynicism, but long experience has taught me that those who profess to have all the answers usually have none!

Mick


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

raindog said:


> I spent 40 years in the human "caring professions" watching liberal PC social workers rail against discipline and help to produce the generation of "feral" children who now inhabit our estates and inner cities


Let's examine that!

How many children are in care of social workers? How many children are in care of parents assisted by social workers. How many children are in care of parents without support of social workers.

Is anyone claiming that a Chinese child, English child, Indian, Jewish .. Mexican should be fundamentally treated differently, because of Ethnicity, or are the basics the same?

Yes, you must respect and pay attention to ethnic sensitivities and characteristics, but that does not mean, only an English or Welsh parent can know how to care or advise on a child who's English or Welsh respectively. Same is true of other ethnicities.

Now the point that has been made many times, by the best educated, qualified and informed is that :

1) Dog's share more than they differ behaviourally.
Most ppl know this to be true, and greet a Newfie, Rottweiler, Lab, Collie or Yorkie in similar manner.

2) Within each breed, dogs are individuals. Look at the dog in front of you, not the one you expect from general breed descriptions.

3) Many breed traits are characteristics shared by many breeds, after all the "nature" element is due to shuffling DNA, not divine design on part of Dog Breeders or plans made by the KC.

Freqently when ppl invoke the breed trait, they are doing so as an excuse, diminishing the problem.

Furthermore often there appears to be a motivation to "own" the problems & advice given so controlling the information and solution, pidgeonholing the OP's who ask questions. Very often they do not fit in with the category of breed enthusiast, and let's face it, most ppl's pets were originally working dogs bred for particular roles, that now fulfill the companion dog, or are pressed into service in other ways eg) Guide Dogs for Blind.



> "canine behaviourists" on dogs whose breed traits they choose to deny or ignore


That ought not to happen, by sharing breed information in an open way and explaining the reasons for things wider understanding can be achieved (for example the Chi. best practice mentioned of delivering an older puppy, not near 8 weeks).

What I actually saw but until now, chose not to comment on, was a lot of passive-aggressive ranting of an abusive nature. If one* has a valid point, that was not the way, and is not the way to make it.

It just causes pages & pages of back & forth, tit for tat, reprisals that few ppl have the time or patience to read through, to find the few pearls of wisdom contained within.

* originally used less pretentious "you" in general sense


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Let's examine that!


My point was much more general than you are making it. I was simply saying that the liberal - no negative reinforcement approach - to either people or dogs is a disaster waiting to happen.



RobD-BCactive said:


> Freqently when ppl invoke the breed trait, they are doing so as an excuse, diminishing the problem.


No - they are trying to deal with the problem from a position of reality, not some ivory tower theoretical perspective.



RobD-BCactive said:


> What I actually saw but until now, chose not to comment on, was a lot of passive-aggressive ranting of an abusive nature. If you have a valid point, that was not the way, and is not the way to make it.


and the kind of childish rant used by Terry at the beginning of this thread *is* the way to do it??????

I'm not sure if this particular barb was aimed at me, but if you regard my posts as "of an abusive nature" you must have had a very protected life. My posts are based on my practical experience and my education. Although my academic background is in Pyschology, I deliberately choose to use language which reflects reality, not pseudo scientific weasel words and mumbo jumbo which has actually been long discredited in human psychology.

Mick


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

raindog said:


> My point was much more general than you are making it. I was simply saying that the liberal - no negative reinforcement approach - to either people or dogs is a disaster waiting to happen.


Now you didn't say that! Skinner's science says otherwise, and as many people had found for themselves before Dunbar re-popularised "positive training". I think if you looked objectively, you'ld find plenty of examples of "tough" approaches failing, yet being popular politically for reasons of prejidice eg) prohibition, war on drugs, prison system etc etc

Remember they used to hang ppl for theft of small animals like lambs, or transport to Australia for relatively minor offences, yet crime was rife. So don't just look back on the last 50 years either.

In fact it seems to me, truer to say "todays children appear to have much less freedom, than my generation did", that's due to media scare stories and heavy traffic on roads. Then at teenage stage, they appear to frequently reject parental authority in a dramatic fashion, probably because they have not grown up to have gradually growing personal responsibility. But that's just another view.

In my view, you're expressing a common fallacious belief, that firm tough action is effective, for some reason ppl are unable to learn from history and repeat the same mistake over and over.



> No - they are trying to deal with the problem from a position of reality, not some ivory tower theoretical perspective.
> 
> and the kind of childish rant used by Terry at the beginning of this thread *is* the way to do it??????


You're dismissing the work of professional behaviourists and trainers, who work with real clients, others who research the actual needs of pet owners and what's doable. Some old school "idealistic" things were better in good old days view, cannot work, because the world has changed and moved on. Saying "it should be like this" does nothiung for any one.

Anyone who actually interacts with a lot of different dogs, sees huge commonality; they don't change their whole approach, wheras you hopefully would if you were asked to train a Lion or a Killer Whale, whom you won't be able to initimidate and consequences of being regarded as a threat (or food) will prove fatal to you.


> I'm not sure if this particular barb was aimed at me, but if you regard my posts as "of an abusive nature" you must have had a very protected life


No, the section that you called a "barb", from "What I actually saw", was the response to the creation of the thread at the beginning.

IME the best way to deal with a perceived slight, is actually most often to ignore it. That did not happen, and I don't think you're being objective if you percieve this post http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/143399-my-dog-______-s-he-special-different-other-breeds.html#post2138927 as a rant.

What is noticeable, is how long it took for the real issue to be raised.

*However*...

Personally I do not think it was wise of Terry to reactivate this thread, I actually drew her attention to it by asking for clarification of an abbreviation, whilst surveying for technical acronyms for the Glossary. Terry knows that already.

*Finally*...

I really don't want to be involved in a long exchange, I'd far rather be constructive than argue against entrenched positions, in threads that few ppl will read, once the initial heat has subsided.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

OMG, I love this thread!!
Its like we have gotten a big bunch of 'dog trainers' and 'behaviourists' (professional and amateur, payed and unpayed, good and bad) and shoved them all in a locked room.....Then we get to come along and poke them with sticks occasinally!

Really sorry, but you are all too appealing for those of us with a twisted sense of humor...


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

RobD-BCactive said:


> I think if you looked objectively, you'ld find plenty of examples of "tough" approaches failing, yet being popular politically for reasons of prejidice eg) prohibition, war on drugs, prison system etc etc
> 
> Remember they used to hang ppl for theft of small animals like lambs, or transport to Australia for relatively minor offences, yet crime was rife. So don't just look back on the last 50 years either.
> 
> ...


It's not about toughness, it's about teaching people (and higher animals) that actions have consequences. The problem with the liberal approach is that people grow up feeling that their actions have no consequences. By the way, my opinions are not just based on old school prejudice, but 40 years working, successfully, face to face with teenagers on the street as a detached youth worker. The reason I feel that Skinner's "science" does not and cannot work, is that learning is not a simple (or even complex) stimulus/response conditioning and it fails completely to take into consideration the fact that learning is an interactive cognitive process - even in dogs (and if you had worked to any extent with sled dogs, you would understand that immediately).

The major issue with many young people I worked with is simply that no-one had ever said NO to them and meant it. As a result they grew up with a feeling of entitlement and no understanding that they would have to work for anything they got.

Mick


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

raindog said:


> The reason I feel that Skinner's "science" does not and cannot work, is that learning is not a simple (or even complex) stimulus/response conditioning and it fails completely to take into consideration the fact that learning is an interactive cognitive process - even in dogs (and if you had worked to any extent with sled dogs, you would understand that immediately).
> 
> The major issue with many young people I worked with is simply that no-one had ever said NO to them and meant it. As a result they grew up with a feeling of entitlement and no understanding that they would have to work for anything they got


Skinner's science does work, because of *extinction*.

Now, when you spoke of *negative-reinforcement* you are implying coercion punishing type actions, causing fear, discomfort or pain.

Now it actually appears from your last post, that our views may be more compatible really than the first impression I had.

Surveys with Scientific Empirical approach have shown that punishment does not deter criminal acts, what deters is the belief of high probability of detection.

So *positive-reinforcement* & *negative-punishment* works very well for me, and I see *extinction*, because I am consistent as are other main handlers of the dog. Where he was slow to respond, was where inconsistency was present. *IOW we detect and respond to infractions.*
The dog knows the routine and when he for example thinks about bullying his pal, I saw him think and look at me and choose not to bother, knowing he'll just end up by me anyway. No intimidation, no force, just solid effective training.

For example :

1) Jumping up greeting strangers; we had to manage unreliable strangers, not permit them to pay off.
2) Attention barking; all had to ignore and reward good behaviour, those annoying "I know dogs" types who stick their oar in, rather than respect our approach, delay exctinction!
3) Works for me, on every other person's jumping up dog, I tried; few days they auto sit for me, despite years of owner saying "No Jump!"; so fraid this is not a BC thing. This is every breed someone who walks dogs for hours a day comes across in a popular park.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> Really sorry, but you are all too appealing for those of us with a twisted sense of humor...


sadly, :lol: the reason i began this thread was to add some humor,  
so much for that theory...  i TRIED to point out that many breeds fall into a type, & share behaviors -

Chihuahuas act much like Terrierrrists; herding breeds chase, duh!, retrievers are oral & chew or mouth, 
guarding-breeds are prone to... um, *guard* - objects, yards, food, doorways, etc; livestock guardians 
patrol & often bark by night at every sound; these are *patterns. * 
but i was trying to be humorous - & failed. ::shrug:: Oh, well. :001_smile:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> sadly, :lol: the reason i began this thread was to add some humor,
> so much for that theory...  i TRIED to point out that many breeds fall into a type, & share behaviors -
> 
> Chihuahuas act much like Terrierrrists; herding breeds chase, duh!, retrievers are oral & chew or mouth,
> ...


I thought it was funny, Terry!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I think I was half-convinced you were having some kind of breakdown when you started it but it is funny to read.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Me I'm just qualified to go pubbing with Liverpudlian Lagerhounds! (size does matter) 

PS Lithuanian Lugerhounds piccies pls!!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> sadly, :lol: the reason i began this thread was to add some humor,


Well, that was silly!! Dont you know that the training and behaviour section is still on the transplant waiting list for sense of humor!!
I demand you be po faced immeadietley!!


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