# Got dog trainer in for my puppy!



## ewelsh (Jan 26, 2011)

I have had problems with my puppy, different issues leading to problems with my other dogs who started to fight.....

I was at my wit's end and decided to call out a dog trainer NOW while it was early days and before the issues got progressively worse which would mean even more problems to undo.

The trainer came out today! unbelieveable! He stopped my puppy's tantrums by showing ME how to deal with her, she is now in a crate in a room with a baby gate so she can still view what is going on.. he showed me how to stop her biting me and attacking my other dogs..

Now I seem to have the skills to control my puppy and unstress my other dogs I have had the best afternoon... with peace and calm... 

I have had so much help off this forum ( grandad & rottifan ) and many of the tips people have shared with me the trainer agreed with but actually showed me WHEN to inforce them, right down to the tone of my voice...

Yes it is only day 1.... many to go but my goodness what a change in feeling in the house...

I have to start by getting all 3 dogs walking together on a lead but using a gentle leader lead........ 70% of the walks must be on the lead the rest off apart from the puppy just yet..... and if any one has a pulling dog this certainly stops all that nonsense. By using this method I am showing the dogs I am the boss and I am in control of them NOT them of me... therefore I am the top dog in the house and out of the house. respect!

When the puppy bites me or barks at the dogs I am to stop her immediately by picking her up my the scruff ( slight support under her bottom ) until she calms down, this I can see when her tail goes under her bottom and she relaxes ( it is what her mother would do when puppy gets naughty ) after trying this out 4 times I have not had one bite in 5 hours which believe me is amazin.. by stopping the puppy barking at the other dogs it prevents one dog from reacting to the puppy and then stops the older dog from telling the other dog off for having a go at the puppy.... all before anyone gets stressed.

Simple tips but so effective when you know how... The trainer will be back in the week and once a week until I am happy, so at the moment I can only highly recommend anyone to get in a trainer if you feel out of your depths.

Many thanks from a much happier owner and more important happier doggies


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i was thrilled to read this UNTIL i got to here... 


ewelsh said:


> He stopped my puppy's tantrums by showing ME how to deal with her...
> he showed me how to stop her biting me and attacking my other dogs..
> 
> SNIP
> ...


that is precisely the sort of dreadful advice i might expect from some trumped-up bully on a playground, 
NOT a legitimate trainer of any sort whatever.

is he an APDT-uk member? 
is he a member of ANY certifying organization? 
has he taken an exam on learning theory & passed it?

*i would strongly suggest re-thinking allowing this man to, IMO, abuse Ur puppy, weekly - 
and teaching U to do the same with a puffery of rationalizing twaddle. BITCHES SCRUFF PUPS 
IN ORDER TO CARRY NEONATES, not to 'punish' older, mobile puppies. :cursing:

no-one that i saw suggested anything like this in prior posts; this man is a nightmare come to life. 
:incazzato: *


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

I also have a behavourist seeing to Murphy and also gave me a big talk on respect and the leadership role and how to maintain it, something that a lot of people don't seem to agree on or believe anymore. Before i chose this guy i contacted a few from the APDT site that was provided when i first became involved with this site, well talk about mess around. Out of several that i contacted, three replied, One was 'full', One wouldn't even see him as because of his breed and the other never got back to me to arrange a date (strangely after explaining my problem). I found the guy i have now through another website and experience far out classes qualifications anyday in my books. I really don't think picking a puppy up by the scruff of its neck hurts the puppy, the puppy will go limp and relax as she would when mum is picking her up.


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

emsky said:


> I really don't think picking a puppy up by the scruff of its neck hurts the puppy, the puppy will go limp and relax as she would when mum is picking her up.


Are you a dog? 
I don't think so. So why you are pretending be one of them? Dogs know different. You aren't puppy mum, you don't have that knowledge in yours genes.

But if you are a dog...

This part I will keep for myself


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Andromeda said:


> Are you a dog?
> I don't think so. So why you are pretending be one of them? Dogs know different. You aren't puppy mum, you don't have that knowledge in yours genes.
> 
> But if you are a dog...
> ...


Wow another nasty piece of work surfaces! And how am i pretending to be a dog? What a weird comment!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I can't believe that people are still peddling this damaging nonsense!

I also find it miond boggling that people think "years of experience" outdoes proper qualifications. I'm fairly certain these same people would prefer to be treated by a doctor/dentist/nurse with proper qualifications rather than "years of experience". 

I feel very sorry for this little pup. I don't know very much about dog training, but I'd think his "going limp and putting his tail between his legs" is a sign of extreme fear.


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

emsky said:


> I really don't think* picking a puppy up by the scruff of its neck *hurts the puppy, *the puppy will go limp and relax as she would when mum is picking her up*.


This is imitate a dog behaviour. As well as picking a dog up by the scruff. to punish him.

So how you can name it when you are try to act as a dog?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I think perhaps this is a wind up (at least I hope so).


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> I can't believe that people are still peddling this damaging nonsense!


Damaging? It does no damage as this is how a mother would pick a pup up.



Old Shep said:


> I also find it miond boggling that people think "years of experience" outdoes proper qualifications. I'm fairly certain these same people would prefer to be treated by a doctor/dentist/nurse with proper qualifications rather than "years of experience".


25 years experience in police and guide dogs out does some jumped up newbie who thinks they know everything, yet won't dare touch something they deem to be out of control!



Old Shep said:


> I feel very sorry for this little pup. I don't know very much about dog training, but I'd think his "going limp and putting his tail between his legs" is a sign of extreme fear.


A pup will do the same limp status when the mother picks a pup up.



Andromeda said:


> This is imitate a dog behaviour. As well as picking a dog up by the scruff. to punish him.
> 
> So how you can name it when you are try to act as a dog?


When i start picking pups up with my teeth and crawling around on all fours i will agree to that lol :smilewinkgrin:


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

emsky said:


> When i start picking pups up with my teeth and crawling around on all fours i will agree to that lol :smilewinkgrin:


I know person who said that his correcting touch is for a dog as a correcting snap...


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

emsky said:


> Damaging? It does no damage as this is how a mother would pick a pup up.
> 
> 25 years experience in police and guide dogs out does some jumped up newbie who thinks they know everything, yet won't dare touch something they deem to be out of control!
> 
> ...


How can you honestly believe that picking a pup up by the scruff is ok? Do you not think that a pup knows the difference between it's dog mum and a human? Also, the fact that a human is 5 or 6 foot off the ground and a dog is about 1 or 2 foot off the ground makes a huge difference - how would like to be lifted up that high by your ponytail?  :cursing:


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I always thought mum dog picked up pup to move them not to punish them


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## natty01 (Sep 4, 2011)

okay i will just say this , i dont want to get into a slanging match but . a baby puppy still with its mother is quite small , they grow quickly , i dont know how big your puppy is but is he little like when he was being carried by his scruff by his mum ? i would rather restrain the puppy into a sitting position . when i was a child my grandad picked my chihuahua up by the scruff she screamed , that scream is still with me now . i would NEVER pick up a dog by the scruff simply because of that . i have no idea what damage it does or doesnt do i just know that my own dog was very upset. she never went near my grandad again and my opinion of him changed from that day.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Im glad that you think that todays visit might have helped. This is only my opinion of course but there are a couple of things that I picked up on that could possibly be a concern. You mentioned that when you scruffed the puppy,her tail tucked and she seemed relaxed? Tail tucking and cease of movement can also be a sign of fear and uncertainty too, especially if accompanied with other body signalling, so I would just caution she may not be as relaxed as you think.

Not sure how old pup is, but the earlier weeks and months there is a lot of mental developement stages going on, such as Attraction, Human socialisation and fear Impact. During these times rough or wrong handling can make pups fearful and uncertain, and other behavioural problems can surface,
so what seems to immediately work, may not work long term.

I understand the theory behind the scruffing according to the trainer is because "it is what mum does" I would say though when mums reprimand pups they know exactly what they are doing, how much presure to exert and more importantly its never done with anger,fraustration, or anything other then calmness. For a human to even try to replicate it its pretty impossible.
Personally its something that I would never use because of this.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

What's so awful about this trainer suggesting that the OP picks up the pup by the scruff everytime it nips is that it is punishing a normal behaviour! Puppies nip, get over it. There are plenty of ways to stop puppy nipping (ie replacing your hands with something more tempting) and none of those involve hurting a defenseless dog. All that's going to happen is the pup will start defending itself rather than allow itself to be picked up in that frightening way


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

bearcub said:


> How can you honestly believe that picking a pup up by the scruff is ok? Do you not think that a pup knows the difference between it's dog mum and a human? Also, the fact that a human is 5 or 6 foot off the ground and a dog is about 1 or 2 foot off the ground makes a huge difference - how would like to be lifted up that high by your ponytail?  :cursing:


How high are you talking? Lifting me up by my ponytail would hurt, it doesn't hurt a puppy, big difference. I'm talking about puppies, obviously the extra skin is grown into as the pup grows. Apparantly its not ok as i'm getting my head bit off and called names... again, its been a long time since i've owned a puppy. This was how my dad used to pick his pups up to move them around and i never heard one yelp, they just went limp.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

bearcub said:


> What's so awful about this trainer suggesting that the OP picks up the pup by the scruff everytime it nips is that it is punishing a normal behaviour! Puppies nip, get over it. There are plenty of ways to stop puppy nipping (ie replacing your hands with something more tempting) and none of those involve hurting a defenseless dog. All that's going to happen is the pup will start defending itself rather than allow itself to be picked up in that frightening way


I thought it was more of a calm down technique rather than punishing?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

emsky said:


> I thought it was more of a calm down technique rather than punishing?


It is a punishment because it is a reaction to unwanted behaviour. The pup will see it as a bad thing - surely it doesn't want to be lifted by it's scruff?! I honestly don't think there are any effective 'calm down' techniques that humans can use on excited dogs, I believe dogs have to be taught to calm themselves down.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I would say though when mums reprimand pups they know exactly what they are doing, how much presure to exert and more importantly its never done with anger,fraustration, or anything other then calmness. For a human to even try to replicate it its pretty impossible.





bearcub said:


> It is a punishment because it is a reaction to unwanted behaviour. The pup will see it as a bad thing - surely it doesn't want to be lifted by it's scruff?! I honestly don't think there are any effective 'calm down' techniques that humans can use on excited dogs, I believe dogs have to be taught to calm themselves down.


I agree with both these statements, never really thought that it would be classed as punishment to do this but i see now how it can be. I still wouldn't feel comfortable picking a young puppy up any other way than its scruff for fear of crushing it, just seems safer.


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## Wagtime (Mar 21, 2011)

Hi Emsky and sorry that everyone has jumped all over you. Well done for getting in a trainer in the first place, shows how much you actually care. 

However... lol... you knew there was a BUT didn't you?? Each trainer has their own way of working and training and we all have our own strong beliefs. IMHO I would not have suggested picking up the pup by the scruff of the neck and I do believe that your pup is showing signs of fear by staying still and tucking her tail in. You are being very too assertive and too frightening to her! Especially as she is still learning and all this is happening during a very important time in her life.

All my training - and I work with all ages, sizes and breeds - is based on positive techniques and rewards. It's not a namby pamby way of training - it is hard work for the pup and the owner but it's not about dominating or proving you're the leader. That sort of training is not for me. And yes it does work, but not because the dog is comfortable with you and wants to please, but because they are petrified of any pay-back if they do something wrong. But often this sort of training goes terribly wrong at the puppy stage and I see lots of dogs taught under these sorts of methods that are never the same again and have real issues as grown up dogs.

I really hope you can sort things out and wish you good luck on how you decide to go forward.

Best wishes,
Sara.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ewelsh said:


> I have had problems with my puppy, different issues leading to problems with my other dogs who started to fight.....
> 
> I was at my wit's end and decided to call out a dog trainer NOW while it was early days and before the issues got progressively worse which would mean even more problems to undo.
> 
> ...


Sorry to have to add my two pence worth. You seemed so pleased, but you really are going up the wrong path.

Firstly, are you talking about a headcollar? If you are, I sincerely hope he hasn't told you to use one of these on a puppy? They are constricting and can cause damage to growing bones. They may work well on an adult dog, but a proper trainer would have taught you how to walk them without the aid of these things.

As already said, a mother dog does not pick up a puppy that size by its scruff. She only does that to very young puppies to move them and she will never use it to stop a puppy nipping. Added to that that she is a dog and knows what she is doing, she is not going to do any damage to the delicate tendons around his neck.

You could have stopped him nipping just as effectively with a short, sharp tap on the nose, which would not have hurt. It is not something that I would do nowadays, but neither would I be attempting to behave like a dog - the puppy knows the difference.



hazel pritchard said:


> I always thought mum dog picked up pup to move them not to punish them


You are quite right.

OP, please think again. These old fashioned and discredited methods only serve to instill fear into the dogs which in turn will cause more problems.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Ewelsh:

I really think you would have done better in getting a qualified trainer in- from how you describe this trainer, he isn't qualified, and he is using and advising techniques that have no evidence behind them, and have a long history of being more detrimental in the long run.

I don't want to bore you with the science behind why what he advises is not sensible and doesn't make sense (the way that he believes it does), so all I will say is that the methods are based on punishing a behaviour when it happens, rather than teaching new, alternative ways to behave that are more socially acceptable. Punishing the behaviour in the way he recommends is highly likely to just suppress a behaviour, i.e. make a momentary improvement (like you have seen), but not be a long-term fix.

Imagine you are in a new job, and someone says 'No' and gets in your face to tell you to 'Pick up your game' etc., every time you make a mistake. How would that make you feel? You may try harder to get things right, but simultaneously you'd feel pretty emabarrased and stressed out I'd imagine. Is this an effective way to teach and/or learn? I don't think so.

This is, I believe, how dogs feel when treated in the way the trainer advised. It does little to really effectivlely teach your dog new behaviours, and does little for you to build a positive bond with him. His nipping is normal, you need to help him learn new behaviours. Have a look at this video:
Stop puppies biting- clicker dog training - YouTube

Placing the emphasis on you becoming a stronger leader, and the 'boss' of your dogs, comes from outdated and unproven hypotheses. They are metaphors at best, not a training plan. They often include you becoming firmer and harsher with your dogs, and it is the punishing of behaviours that are making the change, not the way you are holding yourself, as the trainer is making you believe.

Dogs are not typical pack animals; they descend from independent scavengers, and their wild counter-parts (feral dogs) demonstrate this. Furthermore, we are not and can never be dogs, and can not and will never be able to communicate in a natural way.

A mum will not just pick their pup up by the scruff of the neck- no animal will resort to physical punishment first, there is olfcatory (smell), visual (body language) and acoustic (vocalisations) communication channels used before hand.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm sorry for the OP who may now feel like their bubble has burst as they seemed so happy to have found solutions to their problems.

Some informative advice has been given and hope the OP can re-look at the methods currently being used and take on board the points raised.


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## 5rivers79 (Mar 28, 2011)

How old is the puppy?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

emsky said:


> I still wouldn't feel comfortable picking a young puppy up any other way than [the] scruff
> for fear of crushing [her or him], just seems safer.


this is B-S excuse.

when have U seen a vet, vet-tech, groomer, breeder, or even a PET-OWNER, 
SCRUFF A PUP past 3 or 4-WO? 
does Ur vet or any staffer there SCRUFF pups or dogs, *and DANGLE the animal in midair?*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> this is B-S excuse.
> 
> when have U seen a vet, vet-tech, groomer, breeder, or even a PET-OWNER,
> SCRUFF A PUP past 3 or 4-WO?
> does Ur vet or any staffer there SCRUFF pups or dogs, *and DANGLE the animal in midair?*


More years ago than I can remember, I tried to do this with a kitten because I had seen my dad do it. The kitten screamed! I had obviously hurt it and was devastated. It was ok, as it happened, but I realised then, at about 15 years old, that you really have to know what you are doing.

I really can't believe anyone would think this was the proper way to pick up a puppy, not even a very young one. Arm under both front legs, other arm under bum, no strain on the legs or the bum. How are you going to crush it?

I do wish something could be done about people calling themselves dog trainers!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

5rivers79 said:


> How old is the puppy?


obviously, her pup is past 56-DO or 8-WO.

*scruffing, once a pup is out of the nest, is for RESTRAINT - the pup or dog is STANDING on all 4-feet, 
they are simply being held still: for an eye-exam, ear-cleaning, they're on an exam or grooming table, etc. 
they're not dangling in midair by skin gripped in someone's fist. :incazzato:*


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> this is B-S excuse.
> 
> when have U seen a vet, vet-tech, groomer, breeder, or even a PET-OWNER,
> SCRUFF A PUP past 3 or 4-WO?
> does Ur vet or any staffer there SCRUFF pups or dogs, *and DANGLE the animal in midair?*


Well darn me to hell for been uneducated! BS Excuse my rear end! I'm sick of this forum, i'm here to learn just like a lot of others, yet people just can't resist the oppurtunity to patronize, criticize and judge someone with a different view or opinion. My dad was a breeder years and years ago this is where i got it from! This is how he used to move puppies around, i can remember him explaining it didn't hurt them as this was how their mum picked them up. I guess he knew how to pick them up properly as they never yelped. Let me guess, people will now jump on me saying how evil and inleague with satan he was as he picked a puppy up.... Shock horror! Oh and yes when we took the pups to the vet yes they were picked up by their scruffs, maybe he was satan himself? Honestly some people need to get a grip! Oh and if a puppy goes into spasms of terror everytime its picked up by the scruff does that include its mother? Thats the most stupidest statement ever! As i've already said (and some obviously haven't read or chose to ignore) i agree that to do it as punishment isn't natural i saw it as a calmimg technique rather than punishment so boo hoo i had a different opinion. Like i said, here to learn so shove the disdainful comments where the sun don't shine.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Well darn me to hell for been uneducated!


Considering you said:



> I agree with both these statements, never really thought that it would be classed as punishment to do this but i see now how it can be.


I agree with you Emsky. LfL's last post was a bit uncalled for, seeing as you were trying to think about it and weighing up other people's opinions and changing your mind sometimes, when given the info to work with.

Go to the naughty step LfL, drink a cup of camomile tea and think about how much more effectively you could have contributed to this young lady's education, without calling BS, she quite obviously does want to learn. :nono:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

emsky said:


> Well darn me to hell for been uneducated! BS Excuse my rear end! I'm sick of this forum, i'm here to learn just like a lot of others, yet people just can't resist the oppurtunity to patronize, criticize and judge someone with a different view or opinion. My dad was a breeder years and years ago this is where i got it from! This is how he used to move puppies around, i can remember him explaining it didn't hurt them as this was how their mum picked them up. I guess he knew how to pick them up properly as they never yelped. Let me guess, people will now jump on me saying how evil and inleague with satan he was as he picked a puppy up.... Shock horror! Oh and yes when we took the pups to the vet yes they were picked up by their scruffs, maybe he was satan himself? Honestly some people need to get a grip! Oh and if a puppy goes into spasms of terror everytime its picked up by the scruff does that include its mother? Thats the most stupidest statement ever! As i've already said (and some obviously haven't read or chose to ignore) i agree that to do it as punishment isn't natural i saw it as a calmimg technique rather than punishment so boo hoo i had a different opinion. Like i said, here to learn so shove the disdainful comments where the sun don't shine.


I don't know how you can say you are here to learn, when you seem to make a career out of clinging to outdated and discredited ideas and trying to impose them on everybody else.

Moving a very young puppy, I mean one that cannot even walk properly yet, by the scruff is not cruel, so long as you know what you are doing. We are talking about a 3 month old puppy who has a bit of weight, and we are talking about someone who does not know how to do it.

The puppy's mother is the puppy's mother, and a dog. We are not dogs and this sort of action coming from a human is bound to frighten them.

Times have changed. Leading animal behaviourists no longer believe they will get any good response from trying to act like a dog.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Ive never seen a dog pick a pup up by its scruff. Its neck yes, to move it from A to B, but not by the loose skin on the back of it.

Even cats, which are traditionally scruffed, domestic and big (think lions etc) grab gently either side of the neck, and dont bite the skin.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't know how you can say you are here to learn, when you seem to make a career out of clinging to outdated and discredited ideas and trying to impose them on everybody else.


How? by saying that i didn't think puppies been picked up by the scruff of their necks hurt? You also said it doesn't!



newfiesmum said:


> Moving a very young puppy, I mean one that cannot even walk properly yet, by the scruff is not cruel, so long as you know what you are doing. We are talking about a 3 month old puppy who has a bit of weight, and we are talking about someone who does not know how to do it.


Been a very young pup is what i was regarding to, when is the cut off point to stop picking up in such a fashion? Is there such a thing?



newfiesmum said:


> The puppy's mother is the puppy's mother, and a dog. We are not dogs and this sort of action coming from a human is bound to frighten them.Times have changed. Leading animal behaviourists no longer believe they will get any good response from trying to act like a dog.


Ok so if a puppy is picked up from birth by a human, how is it not desensitised to being handled in this way? How would it invoke fear when its been handled in this way from birth. I really don't think before 4 weeks a pups brain is developed enough to think "ARG human pretending to be dog" Should we stop stroking our dogs as this is imitating being groomed?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Perhaps if a dog had hands she'd pick up her puppies in her hands instead of her mouth.  

Someone else might be able to explain exactly where the pull is when we use a dog's loose skin to pick it up and what effect it can have if it goes wrong, or we get hold of the wrong bit of skin and how frightening it is to a young puppy to be held in this way high off the ground and by a human.

People used to think picking up a rabbit by its ears was an appropriate and kind way of handling rabbits, we know different now. I think we should stop thinking its okay to pick up a puppy by the scruff of its neck too.  Even if it turned out it was okay and didn't do any harm, there's a question mark over it, picking them up in a more appropriate manner is certain to do no harm and is no more difficult, so I personally wouldn't use their scruff to carry them about and I absolutely wouldn't use it as a punishment.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

emsky said:


> Well darn me to hell for been uneducated! BS Excuse my rear end! I'm sick of this forum, i'm here to learn just like a lot of others, yet people just can't resist the oppurtunity to patronize, criticize and judge someone with a different view or opinion.


You need to learn to manage it. There's lots of good advice on here.. unfortunately some of the people giving it have no ability to interact with humans on this forum. I'm immune to it now.. but I suspect the OP isn't the slightest bit interested in this thread now. Good job everyone.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> I suspect the OP isn't the slightest bit interested in this thread now


I wouldn't have thought so. The OP wants to do their best by the dogs, so if the forum members give food for thought and bring up questions regarding the training received, I'm sure they'd want to hear them. I know I would.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Elles said:


> I wouldn't have thought so. The OP wants to do their best by the dogs, so if the forum members give food for thought and bring up questions regarding the training received, I'm sure they'd want to hear them. I know I would.


Exactly. But don't you think it could all have be conducted in a more civil tone ? Regardless of your skills as a "dog behaviourist" ( and I'm not one.. I'm a pet owner ) and whether you're right or wrong if you can't make the recipient "receptive" to your point of view your advice is essentially worthless. It's not the "food for thought" which is at fault here... it's the manner in which it's presented ( by some... not all ). If you want a specific example.. post #14.. Sled Dog Hotel.. I would give 10/10 for the manner in which this advice is presented ( I hope you don't mind me marking you ). If it were all like that this thread would be much more engaging and the weight of the advice much increased.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I understand the theory behind the scruffing according to the trainer is
> because "it is what mum does"...


_except that *dams don't do this.*
in over 30-years with dogs, in breeders' homes, in vet offices, in yards, at rescues - 
i've never seen this, *not once.* i've never seen it on video, either; *find one.

my challenge to anyone supporting this idea
find ONE video that shows a pup misbehaving, & a dam picks-up that pup 
& dangles her/him to punish that puppy.* then post the link._

NOTE: 
Sled-Dog-Hotel is not a proponent of lifting pups by the scruff; she merely stated she understands that this is the theory of the so-called 'trainer'.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

does this look familiar to any of the folks over 45-YO?... 








this photograph & others like it raised a storm of anger worldwide.

for those who were infants or not yet born at the time, this is the THEN 
Prez of the USA, Lyndon Johnson, hoisting his Beagle by the ears.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

_video from Dogs in Canada showing how to properly lift a puppy:_

How to pick up a puppy - YouTube


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> does this look familiar to any of the folks over 45-YO?...
> 
> this photograph & others like it raised a storm of anger worldwide.


I can see why. The woman's choice of hat is an absolute outrage. It certainly doesn't go with the blue dress. Just to be clear... I think the chap's dog training technique is an absolute outrage too.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> does this look familiar to any of the folks over 45-YO?...
> View attachment 73624
> 
> 
> ...


I always did think there was something dodgy about him!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Im glad that you think that todays visit might have helped. This is only my opinion of course but there are a couple of things that I picked up on that could possibly be a concern. You mentioned that when you scruffed the puppy,her tail tucked and she seemed relaxed? Tail tucking and cease of movement can also be a sign of fear and uncertainty too, especially if accompanied with other body signalling, so I would just caution she may not be as relaxed as you think.
> 
> Not sure how old pup is, but the earlier weeks and months there is a lot of mental developement stages going on, such as Attraction, Human socialisation and fear Impact. During these times rough or wrong handling can make pups fearful and uncertain, and other behavioural problems can surface,
> so what seems to immediately work, may not work long term.
> ...





leashedForLife said:


> _except that *dams don't do this.*
> in over 30-years with dogs, in breeders' homes, in vet offices, in yards, at rescues -
> i've never seen this, *not once.* i've never seen it on video, either; *find one.
> 
> ...


I notice you part quoted me. I said I under stand the theory behind the scruffing ACCORDING TO THE TRAINER........IT IS WHAT A MUM DOES. not according to me. I go on to say when Mums reprimand pups they know what their doing...........and that for a human to try to replicate it its pretty impossible.........I also say that its something personally I would never use.

I was talking about mum reprimanding pups in general not specifically scruffing,although admitedly it could have been worded better perhaps to make it clearer.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I notice you part quoted me.


 You're not the only one who noticed. It dissappoints me greatly that one of the people who could do the most good on this site does the same thing time and time again. It makes this post absolutely priceless http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/185256-how-not-train-dog-4.html#post1061403831


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I said I understand the theory behind the scruffing ACCORDING TO THE TRAINER...
> IT IS WHAT A MUM DOES. not according to me.


sorry, S-D-H, i wasn't trying to say that U think dams commonly do this - nor that it's up to U to find the evidence.

i simply want ONE PERSON who claims this is true, to find a video that shows this sequence of events, 
& post it as a link here on PF-uk, so that we can all see it.

with 72-million dogs in pet-homes in the USA, & more millions in the UK & Europe, this should be easy.

there are millions of dogs around the world, with millions of dams & litters - if dams DO hoist their pups 
to punish misbehavior, *there should be hundreds of thousands of videos showing that behavior. 
it should be easy to find clear evidence.* i'll be waiting for the proof.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

diefenbaker said:


> It [disappoints, sic] me greatly that one of the people who could do the most good on this site
> does the same thing time and time again.


sorry to see that i've disappointed U - 
please feel free to post Ur own advice &/or opinions liberally, to combat my disappointing contributions. 
:001_smile: It's a public forum.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> sorry to see that i've disappointed U -
> please feel free to post Ur own advice &/or opinions liberally, to combat my disappointing contributions.
> :001_smile: It's a public forum.


I am posting my opinion. My opinion is that you can't get people on-side by being adversarial. At least it's much more difficult.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i simply want ONE PERSON who claims this is true, to find a video that shows this sequence of events,
> & post it as a link here on PF-uk, so that we can all see it.
> 
> with 72-million dogs in pet-homes in the USA, & more millions in the UK & Europe, this should be easy.
> ...


Well pictures will have to do as there seems to be none of a dog carrying pups in any fashion.... Obviously its not a very interesting subject, one thing that didn't cross my mind when i saw my dads dog picking pups up in this way, was to take a photo or video it.
Dog carrying cat by SCRUFF








Wild dog carrying pup by SCRUFF
















Coyote








Wolf








Lion








Cat








Seal


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## ewelsh (Jan 26, 2011)

Hello

ewelsh here the original poster of this thread........................

OH MY GOODNESS! I have read every ones opinions and have taken these on board....... thank you all for taking the time to reply.

I need to make a few things straight. I have only picked up my puppy by the scruf several times when she was biting myself or one of the other dogs so hard and would not let go............. I always supported her under her bottom which I did state in my first post. The method I have been told to use is to calm the puppy and I am doing it in a calm way just lifting her a fraction off the floor and moving her slightly to the side of the sceen of crime!!, she has never yelped or acted distressed in any shape or form. IT WAS STRESSED that this method is not a punishment. That there should be calmness around the puppy as puppy gets over excited by everything and everyone and the more relaxed and gentle things are done ALL my dogs benefit and ALL will be stress free.


Also the gentle leader is NOT for the puppy! 

I will take your Feed back to the trainer and ask him to explain his methods compared to other methods.

I need to think about this method now which feels a shame as I have had 2 days now of complete calm and happiness with all 3 dogs even one cat all in the same room, playing.........................not one growl, nip or warning and I haven't had to raise my voice.

I will let you know the outcome

many thanks again
ewelsh


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

emsky said:


> Well pictures will have to do...
> there seems to be none of a dog carrying pups in any fashion...


with the exception of the GSD moving an adult cat - 
all of those photos show neonates [very young animals] being *transported - * not 'punished'.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> with the exception of the GSD moving an adult cat -
> all of those photos show neonates [very young animals] being *transported - * not 'punished'.


Which is what i said? 

Wait i never even mentioned the punishment thing, someone else brought that up i said it immobilised a puppy when been carried by the scruff, so my theory was it was a calming technique! Jees whats your problem?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

emsky said:


> ...i never even mentioned the punishment thing, someone else brought that up...


from the OP - 


ewelsh said:


> *Emphasis added - *
> 
> When the puppy bites me or barks at the dogs, I am to stop her immediately - by picking her up
> by the scruff (slight support under her bottom ) until she calms down, this I can see when her tail goes
> under her bottom & she relaxes ( *it is what her mother would do when puppy gets naughty* )


that is intended as a PUNISHER - it is a consequence for unwanted behavior. 
it is intended to *reduce the incidence of the unwanted behavior.*

this is Hazel's observation - [i agree with it] - 


hazel pritchard said:


> I always thought mum dog picked up pup to move them not to punish them


BearCub - with whom i also agree - 


bearcub said:


> It is a punishment because it is a reaction to unwanted behaviour.
> The pup will see it as a bad thing - surely [the pup] doesn't want to be lifted by [her or his] scruff?!


Sara at Wagtime - 


Wagtime said:


> IMHO I would not have suggested picking up the pup by the scruff of the neck and I do believe
> that your pup is showing signs of fear by staying still and tucking her tail in. You are being very too assertive
> & too frightening to her! Especially as she is still learning & all this is happening during a very important time
> in her life.


RottieFan - 


Rottiefan said:


> Punishing the behaviour in the way he recommends is highly likely to just suppress
> a behaviour, i.e. make a momentary improvement (like you have seen), but not be a long-term fix.
> [SNIP]
> It does little to really effectivlely teach your dog new behaviours, and does little for you to build a positive bond
> with him. His nipping is normal, you need to help him learn new behaviours.


this is what i asked for: 


leashedForLife said:


> _ *...dams don't do this.*
> in over 30-years with dogs, in breeders' homes, in vet offices, in yards, at rescues -
> i've never seen this, *not once.* i've never seen it on video, either; *find one.
> 
> ...


Twice - here's the second request:


leashedForLife said:


> i simply want ONE PERSON who claims this is true, to find a video
> that shows this sequence of events, & post it as a link here on PF-uk, so that we can all see it.
> [SNIP]
> 
> ...


i'm still waiting.

& BTW - moving a pup or kitten or cub or ___ neonate of whatever species, is not *calming them, 
or stopping bad behavior, or interrupting, or anything else - * it's moving the baby from point-A to point-B.


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## emsky (Jul 26, 2011)

You are tapped, nowhere on that list is me saying you should punish a dog by picking it up by the scruff???? Is there? No! So i will say this again and this time read it slowly and maybe three times as it doesn't seem to be going in....

I said it *immobilised* a puppy when been carried by the scruff, so my *theory* was it was a calming technique! A pup goes limp when been carried this way, it is not in pain *fact*



leashedForLife said:


> there are millions of dogs around the world, with millions of dams & litters - if dams DO hoist their pups
> to punish misbehavior, there should be hundreds of thousands of videos showing that behavior.
> it should be easy to find clear evidence.


Who even said that dogs punished their pups? If you go back you will find this on the second page!



emsky said:


> I agree with both these statements, never really thought that it would be classed as punishment to do this but i see now how it can be. I still wouldn't feel comfortable picking a young puppy up any other way than its scruff for fear of crushing it, just seems safer.


After that it was all about moving a puppy......


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

ewelsh said:


> Hello
> 
> ewelsh here the original poster of this thread........................
> 
> ...


Regardless of whether this is natural/unnatural, stressful or painful to the pup, I don't see it as an effective training programme. By avoiding the incidents in the first place, doing exercises like I posted in my last post (the Kikopup video), you can teach your pup to control them selves around you, rather than having to find some way of dealing with the incident when it occurs.



> Also the gentle leader is NOT for the puppy!
> 
> I will take your Feed back to the trainer and ask him to explain his methods compared to other methods.


To be honest, I don't how fruitful this is going to be. I don't what he told you, but I'm guessing that he is of the belief that a dog sees a human as part of its pack, and therefore you must demonstrate a leadership role. I don't agree with this, neither does the world of animal behaviour.



> I need to think about this method now which feels a shame as I have had 2 days now of complete calm and happiness with all 3 dogs even one cat all in the same room, playing.........................not one growl, nip or warning and I haven't had to raise my voice.
> 
> I will let you know the outcome
> 
> ...


What have you been doing to stop the trouble? Tell us techniques specifically, just so we have a better idea what he is advising.


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## ewelsh (Jan 26, 2011)

ewelsh again, the original poster.

I am not an expert on dogs I only love my pets and want the best for them all, so far I have struggled with the change in pack at home and tried to find someone who will help them all be happy.

I am listening to everything everyone has said. I understand there is very strong feelings on this matter which you all seem to know so much more about and are qualified in answering........ I do not have the answers to my dogs issues, I did not just let them get on with it or ignor them all. I could only see my dogs attacking each other and getting very stressed, which in turn I got stressed, which is why I have bought in a trainer.................. it seems he is giving me the incorrect methods to use. Short term it seems to be working however you point out that long term it will cause more problems which is the last thing I want or my dogs.

I will cancel the trainer and try and sort things out myself or seek advice somewhere else.


I hope you will all stop attacking each other or anyone else seeking adivce who is not qualified but is trying to do the best by their dogs as this to date, has been such a lovely forum to be involved with, one I felt I could seek advice.

I promise you my dogs puppy cat kitten and co are cared and loved for so very much, I am not a bad person or want to punish my dogs. So I do not want anyone one thinking that there is a puppy and dog being hurt deliberatley.

ewelsh


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Aww, I'm really sorry you got caught up in the fallout. 

I do hope you find a good trainer to help you with your gang though. It does sound as though some of the advice given would be a temporary 'fix' and you will be better finding more permanent help that you and the forum   will be happy with.

It's so good to have good people here who do have the dogs' best interests at heart and do know what they are talking about, but I know it can seem overwhelming sometimes.

Hopefully though their advice will have you saved you some heartache further down the line. :thumbup1:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

I dont think anyone thinks for one minute that your not a caring dog owner, personally speaking for myself I was just trying to say be very careful thats all. Especially with pups who are undergoing stages of mental and emotional developement, and especially if going through a fear period you do have to be careful how they and situations are handled. Im sure everyone else too is probably just trying to voice concerns that whilst things may seem to work and work very quickly at the time and for awhile after maybe, certain methods may not last and can cause other problems.

There was a post on here not so long ago (this is just an example btw) where someone thought they were doing the right thing using one of those spray can type pet correctors that make a loud hissing sound on a young dog. It did stop the young dog barking and lunging at other dogs granted, but the dog then turned into a nervous wreck. So everyone is just saying be careful. A lot of those other posters especially L4L have tons more experience then I have, and has seen the damage that using such methods can cause further down the line.As a trainer of years experience she has probably had to countless times try and rectify the damage. Of course people employ trainers and put their faith in them especially when the methods "instantly" seem to work. All people are saying is things are not always what they seem thats all. So please dont feel that people are getting at you personally. I think most was in exhasperation (sp) at the trainer and his methods.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I dont think anyone thinks for one minute that you're not a caring dog owner...
> speaking for myself, I was just trying to say be very careful - that's all. Especially with pups who are undergoing stages of mental & emotional development, [& particularly] if [the pup is] going through a fear period, you do have to be careful how [the pup]
> & [the] situations are handled.
> 
> ...


very much so. :yesnod: No-one thinks the OP is uncaring or does not want the best-possible outcome, 
not just for the puppy but for her other dogs & her family, too - it's very upsetting when our pets become 
the center of family-discord instead of a mutual joy, & a shared pleasure.

...someone [on PF-uk] thought they were doing the right thing [by] using one of those spraycan-type pet correctors 
that make a loud hissing sound on [their] young dog. It did stop the young dog barking & lunging at other dogs, 
granted, but the dog then turned into a nervous wreck. So everyone is just saying be careful. [/quote] 
definitely! :yesnod: un-intended side-effects can be really upsetting, & it's possible for the after-effects to be 
even worse than the original problem, which is intensely frustrating & can be very expensive [in money & time] 
to fix, later. 


Sled dog hotel said:


> ...people employ trainers & put their faith in them, especially when the methods "instantly" seem to work.
> All [the replies] are saying is [that] things are not always what they seem - that's all. ...Please don't feel that people
> are getting at you personally. I think most [of the emotions were] exasperation at the trainer & his methods.


definitely agree - for myself, i find it shocking that someone would be making these suggestions today, 
with all of the knowledge we have now compared to say, 1945 - 1950, when such methods were standard.

Koehler, Woodhouse, & Captain Haggerty would all have recognized & supported these suggestions - 
but no current humane-trainer would join their chorus, & they'd be shocked at the prospect. It's no different than 
suggesting to a small-time farmer that they beat their livestock before slaughter, to 'tenderize' the meat - 
that was a common belief in the past [the 1500s, i think], BUT we rightly regard it today as cruelty.
it's a historical fact, like a dunking-stool to 'test' witches, but no-one would advocate it nowadays. :nonod:

Pups are as ignorant as any toddler, but they're also emotionally-sensitive, & while we can get frustrated 
& hugely irritated, we never want to make a bad situation worse by leaving a pup [or a dog] with a powerful 
emotional memory that will linger & create future-problems; we want learning to be memorable, 
but with happy associations, not with scary or worrying feelings attached to the lessons.


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