# Responsible moggy breeding?



## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Just throwing this one open as I have no idea what the answer is, and I thought it might be interesting to get some ideas.

My preference is and always will be for moggies over pedigree cats. Not that there is anything wrong with pedigrees at all, I just like mogs! 

We've just taken in a couple of rescue cats aged 7 and 2, and are having the usual teething problems. The centre that we got them from never has kittens, our next nearest has a waiting list for kittens. The kittens that they do get tend to be found in gardens or other feral situations and are so difficult to handle. Moggy kittens aren't for sale around here at all, algthough I know demographically we're unusual in that.

Obviously the ethical thing for moggy owners to do is get their cats spayed/neutered and we've always had all our cats done. I have also noted the belief that any moggy owner who allows their cat to breed is irresponsible and possibly a money-grabber to boot.

But what I'm wondering is whether people who want moggies are finding it increasingly difficult to get home-reared cats? The assumption is that if you want a moggy, you get a rescue and you may have to take pot luck on its history and any issues that may come to boot; if you want a pedigree, you get a home-reared cat whose history you should be assured of. But not everyone has the time, experience or circumstances that allows for settling rescues in. 

I am glad that I got our rescues and have always had rescues, but I'm wondering if it is possible to breed moggies ethically, and even have a register of breeders with a set of welfare standards etc. Or is the ideal that moggies aren't allowed to breed and we all have pedigrees?


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

I don't have any answers but I think it's an interesting question. I love moggies too.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I find the idea of deliberately breeding moggies quite abhorrent given the number of cats and kittens available nationally in the UK. 

Equally distasteful is the thought that this breeding should be encouraged and endorsed by anyone. 

If people GENUINELY want to adopt rather than buy a moggie kitten, then like people who want a particular breed from a good breeder, they should be prepared to travel surely 
If people simply must have that "perfect" kitten, unavailable via rescue, then commonsense would suggest they buy form a good, ethical breeder.

To suggest the *possibility* that more should be bred to supply the pet trade in areas where numbers *may* be slightly lower beggars belief to be honest :thumbdown:

The unwanted cat problem in this country is vast, if anyone doubts it do a search online for "rescue cats" 

Ultimately this has to be, or should be about cat welfare and not consumer "wants" ... 

Is it really in the interests of animal welfare (cats) to breed moggie kittens when rescues are full to the point where members of the public reporting stray and abandoned cats can't find a place for them ... it is happening.


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I find the idea of deliberately breeding moggies quite abhorrent given the number of cats and kittens available nationally in the UK.
> 
> Equally distasteful is the thought that this breeding should be encouraged and endorsed by anyone.


Does the same not apply to those who breed peds, though? I like the look of Ragdoll cats, and from how their behaviour and habits have been described - I think that one day I would like one. But I would always, always wait for one to arrive in rescue because, as you say, there are quite simply too many cats out there - we don't need any more.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Is it really in the interests of animal welfare (cats) to breed moggie kittens *when rescues are full to the point where members of the public reporting stray and abandoned cats can't find a place for them ... it is happening*.


I can confirm this. There is simply no space currently in the large or small shelters where I live, nor can the foster homes take in any more. There is also a severe lack of funding for sterilisation or medical care of these animals. I am dealing with enquiries from all over regarding strays who simply have no place to go (aside from the SPCA, which we are hesitant to do because they are also full and sometimes need to euthanise perfectly good animals to make space for more rehomable animals). If the finder of the stray cannot take them in, then where do they go?  I foresee a time when we will just have to allow the strays to become feral.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

I'm not suggesting anything, least of all breeding in certain areas and I think that is a distortion of my post. 

Like it or not, the pet 'industry' is consumer-led. Horrid, but true. If I want a pedigree kitten I can research a particular lineage and order according to what colour I want. That is a consumer choice.

I love my rescues and there is no question of me buying a cat off a small ad. But if people prefer to buy home-reared moggies - and some always will - wouldn't it be better if there was a registration scheme offering minimum welfare standards?

Incidentally, I looked into rescuing a cat through Cats Protection and was told 'we only cover xxxx areas' i.e. not here. It wasn't until I found this forum and Kelly-Joy's amazing work that I found out that rescue centres are happy for people to cokme from outside of their areas.


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## Annie2610 (Nov 14, 2010)

Its all well and good saying that breeding moggies is wrong when the rescues are full. but the rescues do not do themselves any favours by ruling out great homes just because the cats may get out the house and walk down the street and come across a busy road.

I was not allowed a rescue cat because they may get run over as i live near what they consider a busy road, i would have kept the cats in if they had agreed to let me adopt but again they dont like that idea. 

I'm not saying breeding moggies should be done but if the rescues were more relaxed about the location and environment the cats can go too, maybe there wouldn't be such an high demand for people to breed moggies.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

siberiankiss said:


> Does the same not apply to those who breed peds, though? I like the look of Ragdoll cats, and from how their behaviour and habits have been described - I think that one day I would like one. But I would always, always wait for one to arrive in rescue because, as you say, there are quite simply too many cats out there - we don't need any more.


As much as it would apply to pedigree dogs and rescue dogs


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

koekemakranka said:


> I can confirm this. There is simply no space currently in the large or small shelters where I live, nor can the foster homes take in any more. There is also a severe lack of funding for sterilisation or medical care of these animals. I am dealing with enquiries from all over regarding strays who simply have no place to go (aside from the SPCA, which we are hesitant to do because they are also full and sometimes need to euthanise perfectly good animals to make space for more rehomable animals). If the finder of the stray cannot take them in, then where do they go?  I foresee a time when we will just have to allow the strays to become feral.


This applies to many, many areas and some are much worse than others. As always it's the older less appealing (to many) cats that suffer mostly. It's not the rescues fault, they are doing all they can, the last time I spoke to my rescue friend she had a rescued cat, picked up injured in her spare bedroom  The little cattery they have is full, as are their limited foster homes ...


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Annie2610 said:


> Its all well and good saying that breeding moggies is wrong when the rescues are full. but the rescues do not do themselves any favours by ruling out great homes just because the cats may get out the house and walk down the street and come across a busy road.
> 
> I was not allowed a rescue cat because they may get run over as i live near what they consider a busy road, i would have kept the cats in if they had agreed to let me adopt but again they dont like that idea.
> 
> I'm not saying breeding moggies should be done but if the rescues were more relaxed about the location and environment the cats can go too, maybe there wouldn't be such an high demand for people to breed moggies.


Here begins the rescue bashing, how did I know this would happen :thumbdown:

People turned down by rescues, usually, if not always, for very valid reasons, will almost certainly feel upset. I've turned down people before who wanted a cat or kitten, but always with that cat's best interest at heart 

If rescue have rules and guidelines they are there for valid reasons based on their past experiences, not everyone may like them, but there it is, the animals come first


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Here begins the rescue bashing, how did I know this would happen :thumbdown:
> 
> People turned down by rescues, usually, if not always, for very valid reasons, will almost certainly feel upset. I've turned down people before who wanted a cat or kitten, but always with that cat's best interest at heart
> 
> If rescue shave rules and guidelines they are there for valid reasons based on their past experiences, not everyone may like them, but there it is, the animals come first


To be fair though, I think it's a very valid point. I consider Rufus a rescue - I took him on from a woman who had advertised him on Preloved; her children were manhandling him and he was unhappy. Prior to that, I tried asking a rescue - but was refused on the basis that I live about ten minutes away from a busy road DESPITE the fact I told them I wanted an indoor cat. It seems many genuine, good homes are missed this way - and those people refused will (some of the time) turn to ped breeders or BYB breeders which is only worsening the problem.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

siberiankiss said:


> To be fair though, I think it's a very valid point. I consider Rufus a rescue - I took him on from a woman who had advertised him on Preloved; her children were manhandling him and he was unhappy. Prior to that, I tried asking a rescue - but was refused on the basis that I live about ten minutes away from a busy road DESPITE the fact I told them I wanted an indoor cat. It seems many genuine, good homes are missed this way - and those people refused will (some of the time) turn to ped breeders or BYB breeders which is only worsening the problem.


As I said rescues turn down homes for valid reasons, based on their experience 

Letting a cat go to a home when you feel owner is unsuitable (whatever they tell you) just because you have a waiting list of cats to come in does no favour to the cat re-homed ...

Ultimately the problem lies firmly with those who for whatever reason or excuse will not neuter their cats and the "just one litter" brigade ... Not the over worked rescues, they simply struggle to pick up the pieces


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

troublecat said:


> Like it or not, the pet 'industry' is consumer-led. Horrid, but true. If I want a pedigree kitten I can research a particular lineage and order according to what colour I want. That is a consumer choice.


I think you're absolutely right with the 'pet industry' being consumer led. I think I've said on here before that, as a breeder of pedigree cats for many years, I have never felt 100% comfortable with breeding pedigree cats when there are so many mogs in need of homes. Whichever view you take on that; however much we may not like or agree with it, it's a fact - and were it not for that fact I wouldn't be able to indulge myself my hobby as, if there was no demand for the kittens I breed, then I simply wouldn't be able to continue.

It would be hypocritical of me to say I'm totally against a form of ethical moggy breeding, though even that idea doesn't sit comfortably with me, given all the moggies languishing in rescues. Putting aside pedigree and moggy byb's (for one is no better or worse than the other in my opinion) that still unfortunately leaves the fact that I am yet to hear of/meet someone who breeds moggies in a way most of us would think of as ethical; e.g. basic pre-mating tests to screen for infectious diseases, cats not allowed to wander and reproduce at will, proper worming, full course of vaccinations, doing your utmost to ensure kittens are going to the "right" homes and the commitment to take back the kitten/cat at any point in the future.


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## Annie2610 (Nov 14, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Here begins the rescue bashing, how did I know this would happen :thumbdown:
> 
> People turned down by rescues, usually, if not always, for very valid reasons, will almost certainly feel upset. I've turned down people before who wanted a cat or kitten, but always with that cat's best interest at heart
> 
> If rescue have rules and guidelines they are there for valid reasons based on their past experiences, not everyone may like them, but there it is, the animals come first


Im not bashing the rescues i think they do a fantastic job, i just think that the standards they try to rehome to are way to high. Yes fair enough you can argue they need to be that high to prevent them going into another bad home, but rescues shouldn't just rule out people because the cat may wonder onto a busy street.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Here begins the rescue bashing, how did I know this would happen :thumbdown:
> 
> People turned down by rescues, usually, if not always, for very valid reasons, will almost certainly feel upset. I've turned down people before who wanted a cat or kitten, but always with that cat's best interest at heart
> 
> If rescue have rules and guidelines they are there for valid reasons based on their past experiences, not everyone may like them, but there it is, the animals come first


This is where I have to disagree with you.I tried for months to find a cat/kitten from a rescue centre in Scotland .I was turned down because I wanted an indoor cat.I was happy to take an older cat but was told they must be given the option of outdoor access,even cats that had previously lived as indoor cats.I lived by a busy road so was turned down.Even if i had not lived by a busy road I would still want to keep indoor cats as I do not think it is safe for cats to roam freely.I think rescue centres need to drag themselves into the 21st century.With this situation in mind where does someone go who wants a moggy ,they buy from an accidental/deliberate moggy breeder.I do not support the idea of people breeding moggies but,if rescues make it impossible to get one from there what is the alternative.Not everone wants a pedigree cat.


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## Annie2610 (Nov 14, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> I am yet to hear of/meet someone who breeds moggies in a way most of us would think of as ethical; e.g. basic pre-mating tests to screen for infectious diseases, cats not allowed to wander and reproduce at will, proper worming, full course of vaccinations, doing your utmost to ensure kittens are going to the "right" homes and the commitment to take back the kitten/cat at any point in the future.


Kiara started a thread in the breeding section, her moggy cat escaped and came back a month later pregnant, she is doing an amazing job of bringing up the kittens. Yes they are only moggies but she is raising them to standard of peds. Her thread is here http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/146027-day-61-a.html


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Annie2610 said:


> Im not bashing the rescues i think they do a fantastic job, i just think that the standards they try to rehome to are way to high. Yes fair enough you can argue they need to be that high to prevent them going into another bad home, but rescues shouldn't just rule out people because the cat may wonder onto a busy street.


Cats especially young ones or those used to going out, are or can be notoriously difficult to keep in and if a rescue decides that the street is so busy it would represent a significant risk to a cat if it did escape then of course they will say "no."

Sadly working in rescue you soon discover that not everyone is honest and upfront ...

Often people have very fixed idea about what age cat/type they want and they are not interested in a cat that would be more suitable to their lifestyle/environment whatever .... So they get into a "tizz" when rescue will not re-home to them 

Anyway an entirely differrent subject and hardly justification for endorsing and encouraging the breeding of moggies I should think, by most animal lovers standards.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Annie2610 said:


> Kiara started a thread in the breeding section, her moggy cat escaped and came back a month later pregnant, she is doing an amazing job of bringing up the kittens. Yes they are only moggies but she is raising them to standard of peds. Her thread is here http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/146027-day-61-a.html


I'm familiar with that thread and have the utmost respect for Kiara. I thought, though I may be wrong, that we were talking about the ethics of whether one should choose/set out to breed moggies.. not those kittens born as a result of an accidental mating, however thoughtfully raised they are afterwards as with Kiara's.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I agree that in some cases, requirements set out by certain rescue centres are unreasonable, but I think it is very difficult, especially in these litiginous times, to be able to make these decisions. What if something goes wrong, and the animal is rehomed to an abusive home? With these small rescue centres so desperate for funds and relying on word-of-mouth, a scandal could be the kiss of death for them. I know of a cat charity which was brought to its knees because a dissgrunbtled ex-member decided to insinuate that they had compromised the welfare of the animals they care for (it had to do with a rehoming case, where it was felt that an animal had bee "rehomed "in haste and without due care". It wsn't true, but the damage had been done)


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

siberiankiss said:


> To be fair though, I think it's a very valid point. I consider Rufus a rescue - I took him on from a woman who had advertised him on Preloved; her children were manhandling him and he was unhappy. Prior to that, I tried asking a rescue - but was refused on the basis that I live about ten minutes away from a busy road DESPITE the fact I told them I wanted an indoor cat. It seems many genuine, good homes are missed this way - and those people refused will (some of the time) turn to ped breeders or BYB breeders which is only worsening the problem.


Guess I've just picked up too many mangled cats from roads during my time with rescue ... Like many others.


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Annie2610 said:


> Its all well and good saying that breeding moggies is wrong when the rescues are full. *but the rescues do not do themselves any favours by ruling out great homes *just because the cats may get out the house and walk down the street and come across a busy road.


Totally agree, I was turned down by 3 rescues without them even having met me or seen my home, why? Because I wanted to have house cats that didn't get out. I now have 3 rescue cats, I love them to bits and they have everything they could ever want or need. I get very upset when anyone tries to suggest that I am not a fit purrent!!



Amethyst said:


> *People turned down by rescues, usually, if not always, for very valid reasons*, will almost certainly feel upset. I've turned down people before who wanted a cat or kitten, but always with that cat's best interest at heart


Completely disagree with you I'm afraid, as stated above none of the rescues who turned me down had ever met me or seen my home what possible valid reason could they have?



buffie said:


> This is where I have to disagree with you.I tried for months to find a cat/kitten from a rescue centre in Scotland .I was turned down because I wanted an indoor cat.I was happy to take an older cat but was told they must be given the option of outdoor access,even cats that had previously lived as indoor cats.I lived by a busy road so was turned down.Even if i had not lived by a busy road I would still want to keep indoor cats as I do not think it is safe for cats to roam freely.I think rescue centres need to drag themselves into the 21st century.With this situation in mind where does someone go who wants a moggy ,they buy from an accidental/deliberate moggy breeder.I do not support the idea of people breeding moggies but,if rescues make it impossible to get one from there what is the alternative.Not everone wants a pedigree cat.


Exactly the problem I had! I am in Fife and travelled to Ayr for two of my rescue moggies, it was nothing more than a stroke of luck that I found my third in my home town.


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Guess I've just picked up too many mangled cats from roads during my time with rescue ... Like many others.


But there are no main roads in my house. Rufus is, and always will be a housecat - even if we moved somewhere with acres and acres of land and no roads.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

In a perfect world where there aren't too many kitties going around, I would honestly breed my moggies in an ethical way. But last night my heart was breaking looking through the adoption pages on kittenrescue.org. I know it's an american site for LA, but such a small page for the kittens, a huge one for the young cats and a massive page for the adults. There isn't going to be a point any time soon that you could ethically breed a moggie, no matter to what standards you do it, with all those poor babies stuck in a shelter.


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## Annie2610 (Nov 14, 2010)

Sorry was i was trying to get at was, that raising the kittens to a ped standard will increase the price per kitten if they then have to do a pre mating test etc then it will increase more. The final price per kitten will be more like a ped price therefore why would you buy a moggy when you can get a ped for about the same price or a bit more.

As much as i would like people to breed moggies responsibly, i can't see it happening.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Here begins the rescue bashing, how did I know this would happen :thumbdown:
> 
> People turned down by rescues, usually, if not always, for very valid reasons, will almost certainly feel upset. I've turned down people before who wanted a cat or kitten, but always with that cat's best interest at heart
> 
> If rescue have rules and guidelines they are there for valid reasons based on their past experiences, not everyone may like them, but there it is, the animals come first


that's rubbish as evidenced by the many posts on this forum about recuses refusing to rehome cats or kittens that are to be kept as indoor only or rescues ruling out working people or people in flats or people with kids or tons of other stupid rules applied with no logic

you might like to think that rescues refuse to rehome for valid reasons only but that is wishful thinking not the reality of the situation

rescues and their stupid illogically applied rules are one of the the main reasons irresponsible moggy breeding is still so widespread


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

In response to the original post though, I am not sure there is such a thing as a responsibly bred moggie, maybe it would be a good idea to have some kind of governing body but it just wouldn't work. BYB fly under the radar anyway, nothing would change.

I don't quite get the whole pet pedigree cat thing, this is going to be difficult to explain but I will try, and I do not want anyone to take offence this is just my view.

I have wanted for ages and still do a Maine coon or NFC, why? Because I like how they look and I love the sound of their personality, but...... ped breeders put a lot of time money and effort into bettering their chosen breed. The time money and effort is reflected in the price you pay for a ped, there is no doubt they are worth every penny as long as they come from the right breeder, but why should it matter if your pet has the perfect bengal markings? Who's ever gonni know? The cat will be kept inside and you will post pics online and have everyone tell you what a gorgeous cat you have. People tell me that all the time about my moglets, papers as far as I am concerned are only relevant if you want to show or breed.

I also don't buy the less chance of disease in a ped thing either. As I posted in another thread, peds are far more likely to be affected by genetic mutations than moggies as their gene pool is infinitely smaller, increasing the chances of double mutations. Yes, good breeders test but mutations can happen spontaneously and as we saw not so long ago on this forum new diseases and tests are always being developed. All animals carry a risk of illness regardless of how they came about.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

ClaireLily said:


> Completely disagree with you I'm afraid, as stated above none of the rescues who turned me down had ever met me or seen my home what possible valid reason could they have?


Then they obviously based it on information you gave them on the telephone.

If I didn't feel people/environment was suitable after initial telephone call I didn't do a home check, I simply didn't have time. If I was unsure, I would pop out for a chat, but that didn't mean I would not turn them down if unhappy.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> that's rubbish as evidenced by the many posts on this forum about recuses refusing to rehome cats or kittens that are to be kept as indoor only or rescues ruling out working people or people in flats or people with kids or tons of other stupid rules applied with no logic
> 
> you might like to think that rescues refuse to rehome for valid reasons only but that is wishful thinking not the reality of the situation
> 
> rescues and their stupid illogically applied rules are one of the the main reasons irresponsible moggy breeding is still so widespread


What a brilliant excuse for excusing the irresponsible breeding of moggies 

Considering how many people DO successfully re-home via a rescue centre/group I think your "argument" is pretty poor


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

What I'm trying to get at is whether it is fair (for lack of a better word) to expect all moggy owners to have rescues, when those who want pedigrees can opt for home-reared cats without getting slated for it. 

Back in my early twenties I helped to start my then local CP branch so I am aware of the issues as to why there are so many rescues and it saddens me that things haven't improved.

This isn't about my freedom of choice, because I am happy with my rescues and would not have made any other choice (except to get a rescue kitten, which we did consider when we thought Candy would be happier with a younger playmate). I suspect that Molly wasn't handled much as a kitten because she won't be picked up; she was at the RSPCA for months and has been moved between centres before we adopted her. Candy comes from a home environment and was snapped up as soon as she got there; we only got her because the home check failed. She's easy to handle and is a better family pet than a kitten who has been found at the bottom of someone's garden. The irony is then that home-reared cats will find homes easier later on.

Not everyone will talke on a rescue; wouldn't it be better to ensure that home-reared moggies have the best start in life by introducing very strict standards?

How about introducing a license for all entire cats, annually set at, say £500 with a fine of £5k for non-compliance?

By the way I totally agree about not letting rescues go to live on busy roads. I'm interested though about rescue centres not being happy with house cats as I've been made to feel guilty for intending to let my cats out.


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Then they obviously based it on information you gave them on the telephone.
> 
> If I didn't feel people/environment was suitable after initial telephone call I didn't do a home check, I simply didn't have time. If I was unsure, I would pop out for a chat, but that didn't mean I would not turn them down if unhappy.


Well if you are an example of how rescues operate then I'm not surprised they are over run with animals.

The information I gave over the phone was that myself and my partner were looking to rescue 2 cats who would be kept indoors. The animals would have regular vet checks, vaccinations, would be neutered and insured.

If there is something in the above which sets alarm bells ringing then I'd love to know what!


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Then they obviously based it on information you gave them on the telephone.


what, like her telling thme her postcode? or her saying she was planning on keeping the kitten indoors for it's own safety? or the fact she lived within a 3 mile radius of a busy road? or the fact she had children? or the fact she had a dog? or the fact she worked? These are all reasons rescues use on a daily basis to deny rehoming to perfectly good homes.

why is it so hard for you to accept that many rescues have rules in place that deny many cats and kittens perfectly good homes, and deny perfectly good owners the chance to adopt a rescue cat or kitten?


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> What a brilliant excuse for excusing the irresponsible breeding of moggies
> 
> Considering how many people DO successfully re-home via a rescue centre/group I think your "argument" is pretty poor


Do you really actually believe that the many cat owners on this forum who have been turned down by a rescue were turned down rightly or fairly?


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> What a brilliant excuse for excusing the irresponsible breeding of moggies
> 
> Considering how many people DO successfully re-home via a rescue centre/group I think your "argument" is pretty poor


my arguement is not pretty poor and I am not excusing irresponsible moggy breeding, I am merely stating the fact that many people are refused cats and kittens by rescue organisations and then those people find a cat or kitten from someone with an "accidental" litter of moggies or from a back yard breeder.

instead of just throwing silly one liners out there, address the points being made by myself and numerous others about the lack of logic applied by many rescues when it comes to rehoming.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

ClaireLily said:


> Do you really actually believe that the many cat owners on this forum who have been turned down by a rescue were turned down rightly or fairly?


I believe the rescues had what they considered justifiable reason to turn them down. For the many people you want to highlight turned down, there are many who actually do successfully adopt 

This rescue found acceptable homes for 500 cats and kittens in 2010 :thumbup:

Basildon, Brentwood & District Cats Protection


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> instead of just throwing silly one liners out there, address the points being made by myself and numerous others about the lack of logic applied by many rescues when it comes to rehoming.


I have tried to several times, each rescue must do what it thinks is right, based on it's own experience. I am not sure how many more times I can say this


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

ClaireLily said:


> Well if you are an example of how rescues operate then I'm not surprised they are over run with animals.
> 
> The information I gave over the phone was that myself and my partner were looking to rescue 2 cats who would be kept indoors. The animals would have regular vet checks, vaccinations, would be neutered and insured.
> 
> If there is something in the above which sets alarm bells ringing then I'd love to know what!


Amethyst in this post is a perfect example of the holier than thou rescue workers who turns people daily down for no valid reason. A lot of people in cat rescue really do think their sh*t doesn't stink and the "power" they have goes to their heads and makes them all sanctimonious and pious.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

I actually think it would be a good thing if the price of home-reared moggy kittens were similar to that of pedigrees. There should also be health screening, stud records kept etc.

This would also encourage people to rehome from centres if the price was cheaper.

I have no issue with pedigree cats at all and quite understand why people choose to have them. In the same way as some people choose to have mongrel dogs rather than pedigrees, I'm the same with cats. But if I were to buy a pedigree cat I would want to know something about its genetic history and see it in its home environment, something denied to most moggy owners. 

That said, I have not made the link between the rules that rescue centres have and moggy kitten rearing and I emphatically do not do so. If a rescue centre rules a home unsuitable on grounds of a busy road or other hazard then the only responsible thing is not to have a cat in that environment. I can't comment about keeping cats as house cats as it's not something I know a great deal about and know that views are very polarised on it.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> I have tried to several times, each rescue must do what it thinks is right, based on it's own experience. I am not sure how many more times I can say this


so what about the post on here i have just read from a top man from cats protection who came on to the forum to say it was not their policy to refuse cats or kittens to owners who planned to keep them indoors, yet many people on here were being turned down by cats protection because they planned to keep their cats indoors and many local branches of cats protection refuse to rehome to indoor homes or to homes within a 3 mile radius of a main road?

answer these points please instead of just contiuously avoiding them

these aren't odd one-offs, good people are being turned down daily by cat rescues... why?


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I believe the rescues had what they considered justifiable reason to turn them down. For the many people you want to highlight turned down, there are many who actually do successfully adopt
> 
> This rescue found acceptable homes for 500 cats and kittens in 2010 :thumbup:
> 
> Basildon, Brentwood & District Cats Protection


Well I believe they take power trips and should consider removing their heads from their backsides and start looking at whether or not someone who wants to rescue would make a good owner rather than whether or not they can tick a box.

I'm not against rescues, infact I work with a few, I do home checks and I would never make a decision on anyone without meeting them properly.

I know that rescues do good work and rehome many animals, however, it could be many more.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Cats who were rehomed last year via great rescues 

Cats Rehomed 2010

CATS SUCCESSFULLY REHOMED MOST RECENT. - LostCatsBrighton

Lot's of cats here successfully rehomed via various rescues, they must be doing something right :thumbup:

Cat Homing Successes  September 2010 - Cat Chat - Rehoming Roll of Honour

Poor rescues ... The root of all evil  :lol:


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Amethyst, how gorgeous are those cats on your link???

That's the trouble with rescue centres, I still find myself looking wistfully at more cats even though we already have the cats' equivalent of a drunken hen night going on in our house (lots of hissy fits and scratching going on ).

Think my OH would leave if I tried to bring any more home, too.


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Cats who were rehomed last year via great rescues
> 
> Cats Rehomed 2010
> 
> ...


Yes we know, great, woo hoo, fantastic it's great to hear :thumbup:

How many more could have been homed but weren't because someone made a snap decision on the phone without even looking at the situation properly?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

There's good and bad in almost everything and cat rescue organisations are surely no different. I don't like knocking them as where we would be without them? But it's not lost on me that on two occasions over the last 18 months where I'd sold kittens to two lovely families who provided them with fabulous loving homes, both were turned down when they approached several rescues. Both wanted a mog as a companion for their pedigree; both lived near a busy road, yet have no intention of ever allowing the cats outdoors - one family even *already* had in place a lovely big, secure outside run for the cat(s) to have some sunshine and fresh air. Seems like a great shame.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Cats who were rehomed last year via great rescues
> 
> Cats Rehomed 2010
> 
> ...


do you have a list of websites for perfectly good people who were turned down by rescue organisations and then went on to find a kitten from a back yard breeder or a moggy owner with an accidental litter ?

no, didn't think so


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

But how many cats are returned to rescue every year? Would those cats have been returned or released had they gone to one of the refused indoor homes? It's swings and roundabouts. 

Just because someone lives in a mansion on 10 acres of land without a road in sight, by no means that that's a good home. There is more to consider and it seems it isn't considered. 

I'd think it's ESSENTIAL to meet someone who is enquiring about taking on a rescue - it's a shame that some rescues seem to shun people based on one phonecall or e-mail.


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## Annie2610 (Nov 14, 2010)

troublecat said:


> I actually think it would be a good thing if the price of home-reared moggy kittens were similar to that of pedigrees. There should also be health screening, stud records kept etc.


Im sure i read in the newspaper this week that the government is thinking of introducing Dog breeding laws, minimum standards etc. If they can do it for Dogs surely they can for cats?


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

be interesting to start a poll on here to see how many of us were turned down by rescues for no good reason

maybe we will all be enlightened as to what snippet of info we gave over the phone that made us all so immediately unsuitable so we can avoid making the same mistake again


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> There's good and bad in almost everything and cat rescue organisations are surely no different. I don't like knocking them as where we would be without them? But it's not lost on me that on two occasions over the last 18 months where I'd sold kittens to two lovely families who provided them with fabulous loving homes, both were turned down when they approached several rescues. Both wanted a mog as a companion for their pedigree; both lived near a busy road, yet have no intention of ever allowing the cats outdoors - one family even *already* had in place a lovely big, secure outside run for the cat(s) to have some sunshine and fresh air. Seems like a great shame.


this is a travesty and it sadly very very common. Rescue organisations do simply brush with VERY wide strokes and do turn down very good homes every day of the week based on the most flimsy reasons imagineable, and the cats and kittens in their care are ultimately the loosers when this happens.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

siberiankiss said:


> I'd think it's ESSENTIAL to meet someone who is enquiring about taking on a rescue - it's a shame that some rescues seem to shun people based on one phonecall or e-mail.


Lovely idea but where do you get the money to pay for all the visits, most of which will very likely (in my past experience) be waste of time? Rescues are struggling as it is with ever rising vet bills etc 

Volunteers are thin on the ground too sometimes, for safety reasons you should have two people going out to strangers homes. NO rescue visits each and every applicant, spend some time taking calls on a rescue line and you may begin to get an idea why


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Lovely idea but where do you get the money to pay for all the visits, most of which will very likely (in my past experience) be waste of time? Rescues are struggling as it is with ever rising vet bills etc
> 
> Volunteers are thin on the ground too sometimes, for safety reasons you should have two people going out to strangers homes. NO rescue visits each and every applicant, spend some time taking calls on a rescue line and you may begin to get an idea why


So encourage people to come into the rescue and see the cats. No extra expense needed then - just two or three minutes of time to gauge if someone is genuine.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> spend some time taking calls on a rescue line and you may begin to get an idea why


I have spent time, a lot of time, taking calls in rescue centres and stopped doing it and moved on to other types of rescue work because i could not deal with pious and sanctimonious attitude (very similar to yours in this thread) displayed by my fellow rescue workers.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

ClaireLily said:


> be interesting to start a poll on here to see how many of us were turned down by rescues for no good reason
> 
> maybe we will all be enlightened as to what snippet of info we gave over the phone that made us all so immediately unsuitable so we can avoid making the same mistake again


It would be if you could guarantee all the votes were genuine and also the reason why people were turned down 

Now that would be enlightening, but of course these polls can be manipulated to suggest anything people choose


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> It would be if you could guarantee all the votes were genuine and also the reason why people were turned down
> 
> Now that would be enlightening, but of course these polls can be manipulated to suggest anything people choose


What? Similar to the statistics you've just been posting and raving about?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> I have spent time, a lot of time, taking calls in rescue centres and stopped doing it and moved on to other types of rescue work because i could not deal with pious and sanctimonious attitude (very similar to yours in this thread) displayed by my fellow rescue workers.


Sad you have to resort to insults ... lost your credibility


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## honeysmummy (Oct 17, 2010)

siberiankiss said:


> To be fair though, I think it's a very valid point. I consider Rufus a rescue - I took him on from a woman who had advertised him on Preloved; her children were manhandling him and he was unhappy. Prior to that, I tried asking a rescue - but was refused on the basis that I live about ten minutes away from a busy road DESPITE the fact I told them I wanted an indoor cat. It seems many genuine, good homes are missed this way - and those people refused will (some of the time) turn to ped breeders or BYB breeders which is only worsening the problem.


your post really interested me...because when i approached my local rescue centre they told me that because i intended on keeeping my cat indoors it wasnt possible to adopt and to be honest that stopped me taking it further

our gorgeous girl honey came to us through a friend in work..her mother lives next door to an irresponsible woman whos 3 yr old cat bluebell had already had 2 littters !!!!!!!! and she was not spayed...not vaccinated or flead and wormed correctly

bluebell had two girls in her third litter...when my friend showed me a picture of honey i fell in love..then she told me abit about her background..the woman had two young kids who were not being very gentle with the kittens and even though the woman was feeding them and not being cruel..it played on my mind

i went to see her at 6 wks old and she told me she was keeping the black kitten and selling honey..she told me not to worry about vaccinations etc etc
...to which i replied ( i will pick her up next week and she will be booked into the vets straight away.!!

i know i had her maybe too young..but i felt like i was saving her in a way
lucky for me..she is the most affectionate and loving kitten ever :thumbup:
i spend every evening cuddling her for hrs when she came to us and we have an amazing bond 

she has all her vaccs..flead and wormed every 4 weeks..she has just been spayed and i am constantly researching to find things that will enhance and improve her life 

her sister.......has been outside since 4 mths...not spayed..never flead and 
wormed and according to my friend..is being constantly hassled by the tom who is her dad !!!!!

honey is my gorgeous moggie rescue cat xx


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Lovely idea but where do you get the money to pay for all the visits, most of which will very likely (in my past experience) be waste of time? Rescues are struggling as it is with ever rising vet bills etc
> 
> Volunteers are thin on the ground too sometimes, for safety reasons you should have two people going out to strangers homes. * NO rescue visits each and every applicant, spend some time taking calls on a rescue line and you may begin to get an idea why*


Nobody is saying after a call where someone states they want to breed their new moggie with the local tom they should be visited or if they would refuse to insure or neuter, there are some basic rules. Even on a home check there can be issues.

I recently homechecked for a couple who thought it would be a good idea to use a choker lead to train a husky and that it would be best for the dog to have a litter before being neutered. I talked these issues through with them and referred the case to the charity head who then called them and went out to speak to them again. I had concerns but the couple seemed to take on board what I was saying. They were massively experienced with many breeds of dog and I am sure would make great owners I would have felt rotten if I had just said to the charity they were unsuitable.

I think the above is an example of a homechecker and a charity who put the needs of every animal before anything else including personal opinion or gut feeling, pity its the exception rather than the rule


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

as I said another rescue bashing thread to detract from the real issues 

I'll leave you to it ...


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## siberiankiss (Sep 24, 2010)

ClaireLily said:


> Nobody is saying after a call where someone states they want to breed their new moggie with the local tom they should be visited or if they would refuse to insure or neuter, there are some basic rules. Even on a home check there can be issues.
> 
> I recently homechecked for a couple who thought it would be a good idea to use a choker lead to train a husky and that it would be best for the dog to have a litter before being neutered. I talked these issues through with them and referred the case to the charity head who then called them and went out to speak to them again. I had concerns but the couple seemed to take on board what I was saying. They were massively experienced with many breeds of dog and I am sure would make great owners I would have felt rotten if I had just said to the charity they were unsuitable.
> 
> I think the above is an example of a homechecker and a charity who put the needs of every animal before anything else including personal opinion or gut feeling, pity its the exception rather than the rule


Exactly. Some people are misguided or ill-informed, but it doesn't mean they will make bad pet owners - they just need somebody to point them in the right direction. Refusing someone on the basis of, I don't know - they think they should let a cat have a first litter - is ridiculous. Some people just need educating. That's what pet ownership is all about, learning. Nobody ever knows it all.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> as I said another rescue bashing thread to detract from the real issues
> 
> I'll leave you to it ...


no.. it's a thread where yet another rescue worker (you) refuses to accept that what they do isn't always that good, that it's sometimes actually very bad and often very detrimental to cat welfare and that there are huge "areas for improvement" within cat rescue circles. It's a pity you can't even acknowledge the very real problem here of rescues refusing to rehome to perfectly good homes and the cats being the ones to suffer because of these shortcomings in rescue organisation staff.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

The RSPCA definitely would have let us home an indoor cat, it was an option on their checklist.

Amethyst, I never intended this to become a slating for rescue centres. There is genuinely an issue here about welfare because people will breed moggy cats regardless of whether rescue centres exist or not. There is also an issue as to whether people looking for moggy kittens should have the same range of options as those looking for pedigrees (i.e. rescue or registered home-reared). That is what I am trying to get at, not slagging off rescue centres.


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## Cyberfyn (Nov 25, 2008)

To answer the original question, Yes, I think there is a place for responsible moggy breeding. I know I'd rather get a kitten from a breeder that goes through the same procedures that a pedigree cat does. I'd pay more for a kitten that is fully vaccinated, wormed, litter trained & well adjusted, and not torn away from mum at 7 weeks old.

As for rescue centrers I guess everyone has a different story. Years ago we were turned down by the RSPCA for two 8 month old cats (living together) due to the fact that we both worked all day. We are rural, no roads, big gardens & no kids (at the time). We ended up getting a couple of kittens for £20.00 each out of the ad-mag of all places! The house we got them from was a right state and the cats covered in fleas, but we took them anyway. Charlie lived to 13 and Sammy to 17 & I wouldn't have changed them for the world.

My brother was allowed two sisters about 3 years ago because he works from home. Both are now gone. One due to a RTA and one dissapeared.


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## slash (Oct 16, 2010)

We got Slash from Kirkintilloch Cats Protection (as an 18 month old), who I have to say were great. Although we do live behind a park and wanted to give Slash access to outside, so I guess we met their requirements.
In regard to the OPs point, it would be great if moggies were bred to the same standards as pedigrees, but I guess that most people who breed mogs aren't doing it intentionally. I think it's remiss behaviour or sheer neglect on the part of those that let their moggies breed, rather than an intentioned plan which is sad. It sounds like a utopia that all moggies would be bred intentionally, with planned homes and all the testing etc that I don't know about. It's such a mindset change for some people I'm not sure how realistic it is :frown:


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## Gem16 (Aug 5, 2010)

Blimey i just had to skim through all these posts cause i didn't have time to read everything, i knew there would be some disagreement after seeing the thread was only posted this morning and already has 7 pages 
To answer the original question, I would happily buy moggies from peoples homes if i knew they had undergone more ethical breeding and vet checks on the parents etc. I LOVEEE my moggies and although i would like to experience having a pedigree one day, i just adore never knowing what you get with a moggy ( personality wise! ) they can be so interesting.
As for the rescue subject, well, this is something which is quite touchy for those of us involved in it someway or another.
I am a volunteer at mine and see how much the staff really care about the cats, and the fact of the matter is, some cats are better off staying there a little longer than going to an unsuitable home. I am at battersea and to be fair, the cats have a pretty nice environment and probably live better than they ever did before, so i cannot comment on small rescues where the cats don't have much space/attention etc. 
They prefer cats to go to homes with gardens, there is sometimes some wiggle room depending on the cat and potential owner but generally they prefer they go somewhere with outside access. 
However i got an indoor cat from there last year no probs atall, you just need to wait for the right one to come up. EVERY single cat there gets rehomed, i have never ever seen one not get rehomed, and that is despite the fact some of you say rescues are 'too picky' 
Some of the people that come in looking for a cat don't seem suitable for the one they have chosen for one reason or another, sometimes it is lifestyle reasons and sometimes there is something about the person which seems very 'off' in which case you kind of have to make an excuse as to why they can't have it.
I will say hand on heart all the staff at the centre i know care about the animals as they would their own, and they would not let the animals go to just anyone.
The sad truth is to some people, a person can come along offering a nice indoor home, and then a person can come along a week later wanting the same cat offering a great home with a garden, so it is obvious which the centre is going to choose.
Now i don't want anyone to start saying, 'haven't you seen what can happen outside blah blah' yes i am an owner of 2 indoor cats and would happily have indoor cats in the future but i don't think it's fair to tar all rescues with the same brush.
They don't have their heads up their own ass, they just want the BEST possible home for the cat ( unless your going to some dodgy rescues ) lol


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> I am yet to hear of/meet someone who breeds moggies in a way most of us would think of as ethical; e.g. basic pre-mating tests to screen for infectious diseases, cats not allowed to wander and reproduce at will, proper worming, full course of vaccinations, doing your utmost to ensure kittens are going to the "right" homes and the commitment to take back the kitten/cat at any point in the future.


I have had a few approaches from people wanting to breed moggies using a known stud. In practice, what they want is to use a stud a maximum of 10 miles down the road (petrol is expensive), they want to use him for nothing, and it would help if the stud owner can bring him over (but don't ask them to pay the petrol). Cynical? Yes, but with reason!

Liz


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I have had a few approaches from people wanting to breed moggies using a known stud. In practice, what they want is to use a stud a maximum of 10 miles down the road (petrol is expensive), they want to use him for nothing, and it would help if the stud owner can bring him over (but don't ask them to pay the petrol). Cynical? Yes, but with reason!
> 
> Liz


Not cynical a realist ...

Of course the prettier a moggy kitten the better, so I would imagine an attractive stud would appeal.

Without doubt in the rescue world, pretty moggies are snapped up first, generally speaking. That's human nature 

White kittens were always VERY popular and I'd say next on the list were grey kittens/peachy ones and those with nice tortoishell markings.

Black were more difficult, though I adore black cats :001_wub:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catsmum said:


> any local branches of cats protection refuse to rehome to indoor homes or to homes within a 3 mile radius of a main road?


3 miles?! How far do they think neutered cats wander?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Lovely idea but where do you get the money to pay for all the visits, most of which will very likely (in my past experience) be waste of time?


Why are most a waste of time? Because they tell you lies on the phone, because you don't ask questions and then find they have several young children or a house full of vicious dogs, or because they go and find a cat from elsewhere? Genuine question, I don't know the answer.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Of course the prettier a moggy kitten the better, so I would imagine an attractive stud would appeal.


Yes well that's true, the interest does evaporate pretty quikcly after I point out that my Burmese boy mated to a moggy will not produce kittens that look remotely Burmese!

Liz


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Why are most a waste of time? Because they tell you lies on the phone, because you don't ask questions and then find they have several young children or a house full of vicious dogs, or because they go and find a cat from elsewhere? Genuine question, I don't know the answer.
> 
> Liz


This was a comment referring to the person who suggested that rescues should visit EVERY person who makes an inquiry about re-homing a cat.
Suggesting that it was wrong to "screen" initial calls.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

I have 'several young children' and that wasn't considered a bar to us adopting rescue cats, although not every cat was suitable, obviously.

There are irresponsible breeders of moggies, and pedigrees as well. Some of the things I've read on here about the conditions in which pedigrees have been reared are every bit as shocking as those for non-pedigrees. The answer is to regulate breeding of all kinds in such a way through licensing and insurance so that there is not a lot of money to be made, and that people do it out of interest and love.

In the short term this would lead to masses of cats - pedigrees as well - being abandoned. The question is would it be worth it in the long run to get better regulation? (hypothetically, of course, since this ain't gonna happen in a million years.)

Put it this way: 20 yrs ago I was involved in cat rescue and in that time things haven't changed, except in those days home visits were not the norm. It's obvious that current policies aren't working and that plenty of cats are being bred in dreadful circumstances. 

So what has gone wrong, and what needs to change?

(re black cats, I used to have a sweetie, we lost her very young. :frown: I wonder if the reluctance to adopt black cats has its orginins in the folklore about them?)


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> This was a comment referring to the person who suggested that rescues should visit EVERY person who makes an inquiry about re-homing a cat.
> Suggesting that it was wrong to "screen" initial calls.


no one ever suggested it was wrong to screen initial calls

it IS wrong to have blanket rules and apply them arbitrarily

so

anyone wanting an indoor cat is ruled out
anyone with kids under x years is ruled out
anyone with a dog is ruled out
anyone working x-hours is ruled out
anyone living within x-distnace of a busy road is ruled out

can you see the difference here?

there are _sensible_ screeing measures

then there are the _power has gone to their heads_ screening measures


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Wondering how long it would be, if moggy breeding was standardised *shudders* before we began to see the moggy breeders trying to create a breed


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Hmm, it seems to me that the moral of the story is to home via the RSPCA - kids are no problem, other pets are no problem, working is no problem either. Roads might be though.

Of course some breeders would want to create a 'breed', but then it won't be a moggy any more and so it would be self-defeating.

And Amethyst, I don't get why regulated moggy breeding makes you shudder given the alternative - unregulated breeding between cats with goodness knows what health issues in poor conditions that then get sold on to anyone with enough cash?

Or do you just want to see moggy breeding banned altogether? (genuine question) In which case, the logical conculsion would eventually be pedigrees and ferals only.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

well the moggie Is a 'breed' really, and as for 'responsible' breeding do you raelly think that the people who let their cats go outside and mate x x x males over and over again are going to follow rules, as stated by the GCCf for example? 99.9% doubt it!


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

But if they had to pay to keep an unneutered cat they might. And if they had to keep stud records of the parentage of the kittens that they breed rather than it just being any old neighbourhood tom.

And if 'moggy' has a standard then why can't breeding them be subject to regulation?

As far as I can see there are breeders of all kinds who duck their responsibilities and who want to make a few quid at the expense of animal welfare.

Imagine, Taylorbaby, if moggies could be bred in the same loving conditions as you give your babies? Is the current system really better?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

troublecat said:


> But if they had to pay to keep an unneutered cat they might. And if they had to keep stud records of the parentage of the kittens that they breed rather than it just being any old neighbourhood tom.
> 
> And if 'moggy' has a standard then why can't breeding them be subject to regulation?
> 
> ...


that would be fantastic if people did that, but when I see moggie 'breeders' near me who let mum outdoors, no vacs or womring her, she mates and gets pregnant first litter at 9months old, kittens arent wormed go to new homes at 5-8weeks old, mum is calling so let outside again....and its a circle and these people do actually make money as there is no overheads.

for those people I mean would they really carry on if, mum isnt allowed outside, must be fully vac and health tested, wormed, actually Go to a moggie stud also health tested and PAY for it!! Then keep kittens til 12weeks old fully vac wormed litter trained kitten packs, reg fees and papers, then let mum rest for 9-12months before her next litter.....is that _Really_ going to happen?

That can also go for cross breeding, all of them are sold at 5-8weeks for ped prices!!! Even some ped breeders for that matter let them go early.

Maybe Im pesamitstic (well, I am) but I really cant see that happening with moggies, if it did, the population would come down a hell of alot.

r.e. rescues i was turned down as I wanted a indoor cat, I was at the time wanting to adopt 2 ginger brothers, but the resuce horrified said no way they had already been outside, at 5weeks old!!!

I looked for 4/5months, then my dog passed and that night unable to cope I openned the paper and went a lined some womens pocket for a kitten, do you know what? she had no mum/dad at her home, just a crate full of kittens, I was crying at her home and just picked one, then we noticed that she was advertising kittens every 2weeks, 8 at a time still does all these years later 

If I had rescued those 2 kittens I would never have got him, although I wouldnt change him for the world I feel guilty that I lined her pockets with money when I could have rescued a cat.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

I agree with you, Taylorbaby - which is why there would need to be expensive licenses for breeding cats, along with fines/prison for people who have unneutered cats without paying for the license and insurance. This should price most of the money machines out of the game. How about also making it illegal to rehome a kitten under 12 wks?

This would also make it cheaper to home a rescue than a moggy from an ad. The RSPCA charges £120 to home a kitten.

It might be that I'm living in cloud cuckoo land, but the situation that we have at the moment is a living nightmare for many cats, and *nothing* is changing.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

troublecat said:


> I agree with you, Taylorbaby - which is why there would need to be expensive licenses for breeding cats, along with fines/prison for people who have unneutered cats without paying for the license and insurance. This should price most of the money machines out of the game. How about also making it illegal to rehome a kitten under 12 wks?
> 
> This would also make it cheaper to home a rescue than a moggy from an ad. The RSPCA charges £120 to home a kitten.
> 
> It might be that I'm living in cloud cuckoo land, but the situation that we have at the moment is a living nightmare for many cats, and *nothing* is changing.


what abouts us who do thinsg properly though? Why should we suffer and pay expensive fines because of those who dont?

I agree I think where TJE was from it is Against the law to sell a kitten under 12weeks of ages!!

It should be law that kittens HAVE to be vet checked twice fully vac & wormed with vet card leave mum at 12weeks, whether ist a moggie or cross breed....but will it happen? 

And It does bug me about 'accidental litters' people harp on about, a 'accident' by definition is something that you cant prevent, so Neuter your pets at 5-6months of age and ....tadaa!! no kittens!!


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

I hear you, Taylorbaby, and I do sympathise. The cost of all kittens would have to go up to absorb the cost. But you'd only need to pay for a license, not any fines unless you didn't comply and it would be the fines that would need to hit hardest.

Yes, breeders woudl suffer extra costs, but right now cats are suffering and what I find so hard to take is that things haven't changed since I first got involved in cat welfare. 

As far as I can see the current policy of encouraging neutering doesn't work. Either it is made compulsory and moggie cats will eventually die out, or there has to be regulation backed up with legislation that has the power to hurt.

Do you run campaigns around here? Maybe we could organise one calling for a change in the law so that kittens can't be sold or rehomed under 12 wks?

Totally agree about 'accidental' litters as well, even though many owners are very caring.


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

The way the situation with cats in rescue is at the moment I don't think any moggy breeding is responsible. 

Last summer 3 of my friends hand reared 2 different litters of dumped kittens each. Where I work we work closely with the local RSPCA and there were so so many pregnant cats and cats with kittens taken in, more so last summer than ever before.
Lot's of the kittens weren't snapped up as there were so many, and many are still there waiting for homes as not-so-cute adult cats now If kittens can't even find homes because there's too many, there's no hope for the poor old codgers also needing homes


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

:frown:

So what would you suggest then, Doolally? Because things really can't go on as they are, can they?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

troublecat said:


> I hear you, Taylorbaby, and I do sympathise. The cost of all kittens would have to go up to absorb the cost. But you'd only need to pay for a license, not any fines unless you didn't comply and it would be the fines that would need to hit hardest.
> 
> Yes, breeders woudl suffer extra costs, but right now cats are suffering and what I find so hard to take is that things haven't changed since I first got involved in cat welfare.
> 
> ...


all my my kittens and my own personal pets are neutered, im very pro neutering pets, and everyone has been happy to do it, apart from one person, which we quickly sorted!

I think that campaigns do go on BUT I highly doubt that they willc hange peoples minds.

Ihave had 5 calls to use my boy as a stud boy, 3 of those callers had no paperwork and no health tests so i explained to them what they needed to do and why I would never entertain them.

1 person had papers (as a 'pet' not on acitve but no health tests and just 'wanted' a litter, no idea behind it just wanted to 'give them away to friends and family'! I said 'your be begging them for money by the end!!!'

Then the other person had a moggie!!

NOW If I were a BYB Id be laughing, thats alot of money I *could* have made if I didnt give a toss or have morals


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I do think its a shame there is no way to buy a moggie kitten without suffering from a guilty conscience or seeming to add to rehoming problems. Esp when so many people are turned way from rescues (rightly or wrongly). I myself would be coz I live on a main road and have indoor cats (stupid reasons!), also I have dogs (good reasons-the dogs are rotten little toads!LOL).
My experience of pedigree cats has been mostly bad. Nearly all the pedigree cats Ive owner or known (inc Rexs, sphynx, siamese, ragdoll) have had behaviourial issues, been unfriendly or had health problems. In contrast the majority of the moggies have been healthy, confidant and very affectionate. Im sure thats not true for all bt out of the 30ish cats Ive owned/relatives have owned its the moggies that have been the best all round. 
Maybe thats why people still want a moggie??


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

When I was growing up people had this idea that it was 'kinder' to give cats a litter before neutering. Very odd.

But if people had to pay through the nose to have that litter through having a license, spaying becomes much more attractive.

I was thinking more of campaigning to the Govt for a change in the law re kitten homing? 

Do Pets at Home take kitten ads?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> I do think its a shame there is no way to buy a moggie kitten without suffering from a guilty conscience or seeming to add to rehoming problems. Esp when so many people are turned way from rescues (rightly or wrongly). I myself would be coz I live on a main road and have indoor cats (stupid reasons!), also I have dogs (good reasons-the dogs are rotten little toads!LOL).
> My experience of pedigree cats has been mostly bad. Nearly all the pedigree cats Ive owner or known (inc Rexs, sphynx, siamese, ragdoll) have had behaviourial issues, been unfriendly or had health problems. In contrast the majority of the moggies have been healthy, confidant and very affectionate. Im sure thats not true for all bt out of the 30ish cats Ive owned/relatives have owned its the moggies that have been the best all round.
> Maybe thats why people still want a moggie??


but you can say that the other way round my moggie cat has been sick all his life  my peds arent.... and you also have to put upon the buyer responablity that they HAVE to research the sellers, not all sellers care, some just breed kittens, they dont do what I / we do which is make sure they have the best up-bringing and do things to a high standard, some just breed them, thats about their imoput!

my freind has 2 moggies resently couldnt cope due to behavioural problems, she bought them from a 'farm breeder' kittens had never seen the inside of a house, brought up in a dirty shed, i went with her and we were both shocked...yet she went back!!! only 7 months old-oish now they are, crazy.



troublecat said:


> When I was growing up people had this idea that it was 'kinder' to give cats a litter before neutering. Very odd.
> 
> But if people had to pay through the nose to have that litter through having a license, spaying becomes much more attractive.
> 
> ...


PAH do, i always see kittens/crosses/dogs/crosses forsale, only once have i seen a pedgiree dog for sale

***

tell you what not alot shocks me but a year ago I was taking my kits in to have their 2nd vacs, got talking to a girl and boy who also had a boy ragdoll, they said that they were having problems and maybe I could help and I breed / own them and the vet nurse was asking me advice about bengals for her mum and I had been giving her some websites to look at.

Anyway! I ask the problem and they said that 'he is weeing everywhere' I asked the 1st/2nd simple questions 'how old is he?' 'is he neutered' they replied 'his 14months and we just had him neutered a few weeks ago'

I said 'well theres your problem his started to mark his terroritory, why didnt you neuter at 5/6months old'

them: 'well our friends mum bred these, all the kittens in the litter were deformed and died he was the on'y one that survied, her next litter were also deformed and died and so she gave up breeding. We decided that we wanted to breed him to our friends ragdoll and get some kittens'

I said 'health tests/paperwork?'

'what health tests? paperwork?'

I said 'well you could have passed on a faulty gene to all those kittens seeing as all the kittens died/deformed twice/2litters and he wasnt'

they said 'we just wanted him to be a dad, but now he keeps weeing everywhere so if it carries on we cant keep him'

me: 'but its YOUR fault!??'

then I Was called into the waiting room!!

Ive found that alot of people WANT to have kittens yet have NO idea of what it envloves, when they ask me...they decide not to and Im only being honest!!


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

troublecat said:


> :frown:
> 
> So what would you suggest then, Doolally? Because things really can't go on as they are, can they?


I really don't know :frown: There's always the hope that the message will get through about neutering before cats mate, and we may reduce the numbers of kittens, but it seems to be getting worse, not better. Cat's protection are encouraging early neutering so cats don't have the chance to mate, they offer free neutering vouchers, what more can be done really?

If the numbers could be reduced then maybe there would be a need for responsible moggy breeders. But I can't see numbers being reduced, so as it is I can't commend anyone wanting to bring more moggy kittens into this world. For every kitten being bred and sold that's one less in a rescue getting a home, for every kitten in rescue that's one less older cat getting a place. I do think some rescues have odd rehoming policies, but one of my friends had her hand-rears til 5months because she couldn't find homes for them.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

Absolutely NOT! 

If you want a moggy go to a shelter.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

"Prior to that, I tried asking a rescue - but was refused on the basis that I live about ten minutes away from a busy road DESPITE the fact I told them I wanted an indoor cat"

What a RIDICULOUS RULE.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Then they obviously based it on information you gave them on the telephone.
> 
> If I didn't feel people/environment was suitable after initial telephone call I didn't do a home check, I simply didn't have time. If I was unsure, I would pop out for a chat, but that didn't mean I would not turn them down if unhappy.


See my sig.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

taylorbaby said:


> all my my kittens and my own personal pets are neutered, im very pro neutering pets, and everyone has been happy to do it, apart from one person, which we quickly sorted!
> 
> I think that campaigns do go on but i highly doubt that they willc hange peoples minds.
> 
> ...


well said!!!


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## Sparkles87 (Aug 30, 2010)

I'll be honest, I've only read half the thread as I really shouldn't be procrastinating on my uni work, but I agree with what some folk are/were saying about rescues.

I'll put my hands up as guilty; I bought a moggie kitten who was 6 weeks old from a dodgy 'breeder' (if you could even call her such a thing). His brothers and sisters went at 4 weeks. Now, I cannot justify this behaviour and shan't waste everyone's time attempting to do so as it is certainly not something I would repeat now that I'm a tad more educated in the subject, BUT I had tried desperately to adopt a cat from a shelter (I live in the north-east of Scotland) and was not entertained due to thinking of keeping said kitten/cat indoors. In no way am I a substandard (for want of a better word) pet owner and incidentally the moggie kitten I (shamefully) purchased is very happy and well-loved. I did not want a pedigree cat and would have jumped through any hoops any shelter asked of me to prove that I would make sure the cat I adopted was happy, but I was simply not entertained. 

As it happens I reported the woman I bought William from because of the conditions in which she was keeping her animals (and surely selling kittens at 4 weeks old is illegal?) and it appears that absolutely nothing got done. So, nothing can be done to stop people like that breeding animals, yet everything can be done to stop genuine animal-lovers adopting a pet who will be cared for and looked after? Makes no sense to me. 

I'm sure not saying that I agree with the breeding of mogs, but I do think that if many rescues changed their stance and old-fashioned rules then it would help change the current situation - decent cat-loving people who initially go to shelters and are turned down wouldn't then feel the need to buy a non-pedigree cat elsewhere. 

I just also want to add that I don't mean this to be a rescue-bashing post; I have massive respect for these people and what they do! 

Sparkles
xx


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

I'm wondering if getting places like PAH to stop taking kitten ads would be a start in educating the wider public? Maybe Cats Protection or the RSPCA should campaign on this issue. If PAH had a policy that made it clear that indiscriminate kitten breeding is unethical then maybe people would think twice.

Have Pets Forum tried uniting in animal welfare campaigns in the way that Mumsnet does on parenting issues? (sorry, not been here very long ). 

Doolally, it seems we are in a Catch 22, doesn't it? I would hope that introducing licensing for moggy breeders would dramatically reduce the numbers born because of the costs involved (in my plan for world domination, anyway ) and I'm not sure that it would encourage people. But introducing some kind of toothless welfare standard that enabled breeders to sell kittens at even higher prices without it costing them a penny would be a disaster. 

But what do we do about all the unwanted cats and kittens now??? My dream of tight controls on cat ownership and breeding isn't going to happen, but what is happening in the real world doesn't work either. :frown:


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

I wish there was more responsible breeding of Moggies cause I LOVE cats of shapes and sizes.

I have a feeling we wont rescue based on the fact that we are a very private family in that we dont like the idea of house checks as well as my mom doesnt like it and seeing as she it the renter of the house she would have to do all the interview and papers (I looked this up on my cities shelter) 

We will go the purebred breeders if were looking for a certain cat (I want a sphynx) or we will rehome from private ads.


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## GeordieBabe (Apr 7, 2009)

I replied to a post about something similar but can't seem to find it,as some people who work for rescues here,i said so if they expect all people who have moggies to get them spayed,then people would have to be forced to either get a rescue or buy a pedigree,i can't see why some one would want to pay so much for a pedigree just for a pet,though im sure some do
why should people be forced to take on someone elses cat why can't they have one of there own,this is why people buy moggies,this is the impression some rescue's give, YOU CAN'T BUY A KITTEN AS RESCUE CATS ARE BEING KILLED DUE TO THIS. just because some people have litter's doesn't mean they will end up in rescues,some people actually keep there cats for life

so i really believe people can breed moggies responsible, all you need is 2 kittens from seperate litters,all vaccinated/vet checked of course and never let out,then go from there, but then no doubt someone would still complain even though its all done properly 

on kittens leaving mum before 12 weeks,people want kittens small cute fluff balls, so i think 6-8 weeks is ok to leave mum as long as feeding ok,as this is where there personality also comes in,they get one from new owner,if kept for 12 weeks or more hasn't its personality already kicked in and its used to being where it is.but obviously not everyone will agree with this i know


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

there is always the thought. if and only if, someone bred moggies like you breed pedigrees, you would have to blood test the queen before she goes to the stud. then there's the stud fees. on top of everything that would have to be done like breeders of pedigrees do, how much would you charge for moggies? you would be seriously out of pocket, and i cant see anyone wanting to cover your expenses for a moggy kitten.
and i also happen to love moggies.


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## Elsbells (Feb 18, 2011)

Based on my personal experience, I agree some rescues have restrictions that end up ruling out excellent homes (local RSPCA asked if how long my husband and I had been married, and what he did for a living) but sometimes it's the individual, not the over all organisation. 

Incidentally she wanted us to promise we'd keep the cat in at night, which I would try to do if the cat was likely to fight, but couldn't promise I always would as I've had 2 cats at this address over the last 20 years who were safe to come & go through the cat door at night. I explained this but she said most harm comes to cats at night and unless I was prepared to make that undertaking they couldn't rehome to us. 

And it DOES annoy me that my colleagues daughter is knocking out litter after litter from her cat who she describes a 'whore'.

Totally irresponsible (and money grabbing). But the market for her kittens is far more driven by the preference for kittens, I believe than the tougher rehoming criteria of some rescues.

I also feel it's near impossible to ensure moggy breeders adhere to regulations, and I don't know that every prospective owner would be too bothered/aware to use or pay the extra for their efforts.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I apologise in advance if I repeat something which has already been said. Truth is I've skim read 

Ethical moggie breeding, is it possible?

NO, not at this time. I don't think any of us will see responsible moggie breeding in our lifetime.

For it to be ethical, you first of all have to decide only to do it if there isn't already a problem with unwanted moggies.

Yes the same could be said for pedigree's, but it's a fact there are no where near as many pedigree's in rescue as there are moggies. Nor will there be anywhere near as many pedigree feral than moggies.

Plus one thing that I can not get my head around. Without knowing generations of a cats line, how can you possibly health check enough to ensure you're not breeding a cat that has hereditary conditions, or carries them? To do that for both the queen and stud? Nah... no way.

Also, unless studies, real studies are done on the possible genetic mutations on the mixing of a lot of breeds (to make up a typical 'moggie' 'breed') how can anyone know if one type of moggie bred to another will not create a devastating mix? We still don't know just which genes are responsible for many conditions.

By the time all of this is figured out and the current rescue problems ... well, it will be years away. So again, no I don't think it's possible to ethically breed moggies at this time.

However, if everyone wishing to breed their moggie was educated on why it's such a bad idea. Maybe they could join us in trying to help the rescue crisis just that bit quicker. Then maybe just maybe it could be worked on.

But until people learn that breeding your moggie is just not on the way things are, it won't happen sadly 

I doubt the government would do anything about moggie breeding. We need a healthy number of moggies in this country to try and keep vermin numbers down  that's just one reason I could think of!

There is of course one more thing to consider. One persons ethics are completely different to an others. What I may consider ethical breeding may seem over the top and precautionary to another.

I have just had my queen spayed because I believed strongly enough that she 'might' carry a gene that she could pass on to her off spring, that 'might' be responsible for many broken hearts in years to come. I didn't want to risk any of her offspring dying suddenly or suffering with a heart condition. I had one little bit of information that told me it was possible. That was enough for me to decide to spay her. 

I'd like to think there are others out there with my kind of ethics, but I know that there are breeders that think nothing of breeding their cats who they KNOW carry genes for conditions that kill cats young. Some will say it's because they are doing it purely to widen the gene pool, but the truth is that given these breeders show, it's more likely that they don't want to lose their champion winning lines and the status that goes with it.


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## Pardalis (Jan 15, 2011)

I paid more for my first moggy than most of the pedigree kittens were going for in my area. But I wanted a moggy. As for my 2 new additions, again - I wanted moggies. I was turned down by rescues because I work. I wanted young cat s because I wanted my step sons to have a close relationship with them. 
I have spent time with my friend's beautifully bred Birman but I love moggies - I wouldn't want any other type. Even if I was a millionaire. Please stop going on about pedigrees being better than moggies. They are not! And bring on responsible moggy breeding!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> I apologise in advance if I repeat something which has already been said. Truth is I've skim read
> 
> Ethical moggie breeding, is it possible?
> 
> ...


As always brilliantly said :thumbup:


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Elsbells, I think that the home checker you saw went against RSPCA guidelines. We were asked what our jobs are but nothing about being amrried (just how many of us live here) and although the checker recommended keeping the cats in at night there was no element of compulsion.

Aurelia, I am really interested in your post, I think keeping records of moggy bloodlines would be such a great thing although, as you say, it would take years before any kind of clear picture emerged.

What I am interested in though is your comment that 'moggy breeding is not on'. Is this because of the numbers waiting for homes and that if that number were to be reduced then you'd be happy to see responsible breeding? Or is it because you think all moggy breeding should end? (genuine question here)

And I wonder how introducing welfare standards into moggy breeding could possibly be worse than the terrible situation that we have now? Wouldn't it be better if someone was out of pocket for letting their cats have litters every 8 wks instead of making money out of them? And if people won't pay higher prices for moggy kittens then people would stop breeding them.

We know that there are irresponsible pedigree breeders who perpetuate bad blood lines, sell kittens to anyone and I've read about pedigree kittens being homed full of worms, fleas, ear mites etc. Pedigrees also turn up for rehoming. But nobody is suggesting that pedigree breeding is banned.

I agree with you about the vermin, but I still think that even with responsible breeding there will still be enough cats around! But I do agree the Govt will never do anything about this - people will be up in arms about their 'rights' to keep their animals in 'natural' ways and the Govt isn't going to be taking on any more unwinnable wars just now. Far easier to make a token gesture by adopting one cat.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

troublecat said:


> What I am interested in though is your comment that 'moggy breeding is not on'. Is this because of the numbers waiting for homes and that if that number were to be reduced then you'd be happy to see responsible breeding? Or is it because you think all moggy breeding should end? (genuine question here)


If the rescue problems were eased to the point where every rescue centre had plenty of space for incoming cats, then that means demand has over taken supply numbers (or one would hope). If that were to happen it would hopefully be because people were finally starting to listen, and more people were being responsible pet owners.

Obviously if all moggie breeding ended moggies would die out and we don't want that. But the trouble there is how do you gauge who should breed moggies and who shouldn't?

I think if moggie breeding were done responsibly it would actually cost more to breed them than a pedigree litter, given the amount of health testing you'd have to do to cover all the breeds that go into making up the moggie breed!

So no, I don't think all moggie breeding should end permanently. But it would hurt nothing if it ended for a year or two. I don't have any answers as to how it could be curbed realistically though, does anyone?



troublecat said:


> And I wonder how introducing welfare standards into moggy breeding could possibly be worse than the terrible situation that we have now? Wouldn't it be better if someone was out of pocket for letting their cats have litters every 8 wks instead of making money out of them?


Well it's impossible for a cat to have a litter every 8 weeks  but I see what you mean. There are already standards though, but it doesn't mean they are followed. It's the same with ped breeding though, you get breeders that follow the rules and standards to the letter, and then you get byb who skip most of it.



troublecat said:


> And if people won't pay higher prices for moggy kittens then people would stop breeding them.


That's just not true though is it? They haven't always been expensive to buy, heck they used to be free to good homes!



troublecat said:


> We know that there are irresponsible pedigree breeders who perpetuate bad blood lines, sell kittens to anyone and I've read about pedigree kittens being homed full of worms, fleas, ear mites etc. Pedigrees also turn up for rehoming. But nobody is suggesting that pedigree breeding is banned.


No but back yard breeding should be banned to curb those problems.



troublecat said:


> I agree with you about the vermin, but I still think that even with responsible breeding there will still be enough cats around! But I do agree the Govt will never do anything about this - people will be up in arms about their 'rights' to keep their animals in 'natural' ways and the Govt isn't going to be taking on any more unwinnable wars just now. Far easier to make a token gesture by adopting one cat.


Precisely, so the general public ... responsible breeders and welfare authorities alike need to be the ones to change things.

I've tried quite hard to get CP on board, because I do think it starts with them and the other major cat charities. If they make it easier for people to adopt cats and kittens, there will be less demand for unethically bred kittens.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Aurelia, thanks for your thoughts. I totally agree that it'd do no harm for a dramatic reduction in the numbers of moggies being bred for a year or two - not going to happen though, is it?

Where we live the RSPCA chare £120 to rehome a kitten - this includes microchipping and worming etc. Older cats are neutered or spayed as well and reduce in price - our two both cost £75, which I think is a great deal - Molly had even had dental treatment! :thumbup: I know that moggy home-reared used to be free to a good home but they aren't any more. I only know about my area but the only moggy litter I have ever seen advertised had kittens at £100. Perhaps the good value that you get from rescuing a cat should be emphasised in these days when people are so concerned about money? And if moggies were priced according to welfare standards then rescue cats become even more attractive. 

Okay, so people might still have unwanted litters, which is where fines for having unregistered breeding cats would need to come in. I wouldn't advocate some kind of registration scheme without penalties for non-compliance. And we know that the GOvt won't change anything...doesn't mean to say that in an ideal world this might be the best solution.

I totally agree about it being necessary to make it easier for people to adopt rescue cats; I'm guessing that the majority that get turned down will go and get a cat from elsewhere, and that is usually going to be an irresponsible breeder. Welfare orgainsations need to make sure that they get their home checkers on message because it seems that the organisations might have one policy but if a home checker holds different beliefs personally then the home will fail according to those.

I think there are all kinds of ways that commerical organisations could get involved. For example, how about a CP/Pets At Home joint campaign on neutering, along with PAH banning the advertisement of animals on its boards? Perhaps PAH could become a distribution point for neutering vouchers? CP volunteers could give Responsible Cat Ownership workshops in their stores...

 right back at you about litters - I've always had neutered cats so I have no idea how often they can breed and I was going by posts on here, some of which obviously were exaggerating! :lol:

But the tragedy is nothing is changing. I'm still staggered by the fact that people don't get their cats neutered routinely after 20 odd years of first getting involved in cat welfare. Whatever is being done, it isn't working and we can either carry on as things are with welfare organisations trying desperately to stop unwanted cats falling through the cracks and be in the same place in another 20 yrs, or find a different way of doing things.

No idea what that might be though. :frown:


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## Annie2610 (Nov 14, 2010)

If they can have laws for breeding dogs why can't they for cats? Surely it can be policed the same?


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Annie, I agree that in theory is would be possible. But presumably it would cost more to administer than the licenses etc would bring in, and at the moment cat welfare isn't going to be high on the list of priorities. I'm guessing that because of various high-profile stories in the media selling responsible dog ownership to the public is going to be easier than that of cats right now - people who don't generally care about animals will still welcome dog laws because dogs are seen as a nuisance and even a threat. Whereas the issue for unwanted cats is that they are very often out of sight, out of mind. 

I think in the long run stringent legislation for cat welfare is the only way forward, but I don't see it happening any time soon.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

troublecat said:


> Where we live the RSPCA chare £120 to rehome a kitten - this includes microchipping and worming etc. Older cats are neutered or spayed as well and reduce in price - our two both cost £75, which I think is a great deal - Molly had even had dental treatment! :thumbup: I know that moggy home-reared used to be free to a good home but they aren't any more. I only know about my area but the only moggy litter I have ever seen advertised had kittens at £100. Perhaps the good value that you get from rescuing a cat should be emphasised in these days when people are so concerned about money? And if moggies were priced according to welfare standards then rescue cats become even more attractive.


I just wanted to touch on this specifically.

Here on PF I think it's safe to assume everyone who owns a dog or cat gets the basics for them. Worming & flea treatments, plus microchipping and mostly neutering.

Because of that it's easy to forget that in truth there will be a huge number of none PF members who have pets won't necessarily do any of those.

So if they go and buy a kitten for £50, they won't necessarily worm them or de flea them. Not all kittens will have a bad case of the worms or even fleas, so it won't occur to them to get them done until it's an obvious problem.

Microchipping, whilst on the increase popularity wise is not done all the time either. Why bother when a collar and tag will do? Besides if the cat goes missing, no big deal we will get another.

It's sad to think that there are still people that think this way, but it's unfortunately the truth.

So buying a moggie bred by the woman a few doors down for £0-£50 is much more desirable to those kind of people. They won't even think twice about going to a rescue centre. Paying in excess of a £100 for a rescue kitten? Why when they wouldn't bother with all those extras otherwise? Know what I mean?

Good ideas on getting the likes of [email protected] involved though. As with the rescue side of things I'm happy to help if you fancy getting stuck in and trying to make it happen


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I think its an interesting question - one I have often considered myself as I am also an out andout moggy fan. I would love to be able to find a moggy breeder who is as ethical and responsible of some of the good pedigree breeders.

I can also understand the difficulty in finding suitable moggy kittens - as the OP said, adult mogs are always easily available - kittens not always so. Plus the potential issues with temperament, health etc.

I would like to interject here that I am very pro-rescue - I certainly wouldn't be put off paying the "high" price of a rescue mog kitten, partly because of all the added extras you get compared to a byb, and partly because I know the money goes straight back to helping animals in need.

I would have no problem with ethical, responsible moggy breeders - i.e. those that have their cats health checked / tested, home rear, select suitable studs rather than letting their girls out to get knocked up by the local tom, vaccinate, worm, home at 12 weeks etc.

I know it is potentially unethical to endorse breeding moggies when there are so many in rescue - but I also believe the same could be said for pedigrees. On the same line of thinking - should anyone be breeding ANY cats at the moment, whether ped or mog?

I think what I am trying to say is this. I would love to see an end to the unethical, irresponsible breeding practices of both pedigrees and moggies. I will happily support ethical, responsible breeding of either.
At the same time, I consider the overpopulation problem to be almost a separate issue here - we need to be discouraging the kitten farmers, the bybs and the "oops" litters, not the responsible, ethical breeders.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Just had a quick look for cat adoption policies and the first one I looked at seems perfectly reasonable as far as roads go 

Adoption FAQs


Can I adopt a cat if I work full time? - Yes. Most cats will spend over three quarters of their day asleep. We would expect you to provide indoor shelter for your cat and in most cases easy access to the outside (cat-flap), although for some cats these conditions may not apply.

What if I live in a flat/near a very busy main road? - We would ask you to adopt a cat which is not used to going outside or which has shown a marked preference for staying indoors. We would not consider as suitable a cat which has been able to roam freely.

Do I have to pay? - We ask for a donation towards our costs and suggest a minimum of £45 per cat. This helps to pay for the treatment the cat may have had whilst it has been in our care, and demonstrates to us a commitment on the part of the adopter.

If I adopt an elderly or sick cat, would I get help with vet bills? - In most cases, yes. We would expect you to pay for regular treatment such as vaccinations, worm and flea control, but we would pay for age-related and/or chronic conditions. We will discuss such treatment on a case-by-case basis.

Have the cats had any medical treatment whilst at HCR? - Yes. All cats are neutered, microchipped, treated for worms and treated for fleas. We also check their teeth and have any necessary dental work undertaken. If the cat is suffering from any other condition we will treat this. In some cases we will rehome the cat with appropriate medication; in other cases the cat will stay with us until the treatment is completed. We will tell you about any treatment that the cat has had.

Haworth Cat Rescue - Coming and going


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Aurelia, I know that many non-Pf pet owners don't do even the basics for their cats. :frown: But I still think that 'extras' are attractive and I think there will be people who like the idea of getting a cat that is 'ready to go'. 

And where I live the RSPCA prices are quite reasonable - cats at £40 just don't exist!

In my dream world regulated kitten breeding would mean that nobody would sell a kitten for less than a rescue cat goes for because they would make a loss.

Okay, I'm up for joining you in getting [email protected] involved! I'm not involved with CP or anyone at the moment so it'd be me as an individual but hey, I'm game!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Annie2610 said:


> If they can have laws for breeding dogs why can't they for cats? Surely it can be policed the same?


You just have to look at jsut how inadequate they are to find the answer to that one


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Just had a quick look for cat adoption policies and the first one I looked at seems perfectly reasonable as far as roads go
> 
> Adoption FAQs
> 
> ...


I wouldnt argue with this policy but ,what the members who have been expressing a problem with rehoming a cat which they would like to keep as an indoor cat are finding, is a flat refusal.My experience and that of many others is these societies may/may not have these policies but,when applications are made to adopt indoor cats the people responsible for arranging home checks/answering enquiries are stating,all cats should have access to a garden.You can show all the rescues policies that state otherwise but,when it comes down to the actual adoption,on the whole ,these policies are not being implimented.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

It's alot easier to keep track of a dog than a cat so I doubt it would be as easy as regulating dog breeding. In fact, it would be damn near impossible. Cats can escape at any age, can hide easily and can get their own food. There's no proper solution that allows for the continuous existence of moggies in 50 odd years and shelters to not be overflowing.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

buffie said:


> You can show all the rescues policies that state otherwise but,when it comes down to the actual adoption,on the whole ,these policies are not being implimented.


I don't think the people complaining on this thread/elswhere on the board should be considered representative of the experiences shared by all :hand:

I know lot's of people who have rescue cats and kittens that were home checked and passed by local rescues, some live near roads, some live in flats, some have dogs, children, some would you believe a combination ... Obviously some rescues are doing it right 

It's laughable to infer the majority of homecheckers are going out with the intention of denying cats homes ... Of course they will say no to some people and when people are turned down, they can turn vindictive I guess and blame the homechecker ... When there may have been more than a road stopping them adopting a cat.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch said:


> It's alot easier to keep track of a dog than a cat so I doubt it would be as easy as regulating dog breeding. In fact, it would be damn near impossible. Cats can escape at any age, can hide easily and can get their own food. There's no proper solution that allows for the continuous existence of moggies in 50 odd years and shelters to not be overflowing.


I think there is a lot of truth in what you write, sad though it is.

Cats can be great escape artists, which is why so many rescue people will not re-home near busy roads ... but people do not want to consider this unfortunately 

Yes, I too see no end to the rescue situation, which grieves me, though it saddens me more to see some try and blame rescues for the number of cats in them :frown2:


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I don't think the people complaining on this thread/elswhere on the board should be considered representative of the experiences shared by all :hand:
> 
> I know lot's of people who have rescue cats and kittens that were home checked and passed by local rescues, some live near roads, some live in flats, some have dogs, children, some would you believe a combination ... Obviously some rescues are doing it right
> 
> It's laughable to infer the majority of homecheckers are going out with the intention of denying cats homes ... Of course they will say no to some people and when people are turned down, they can turn vindictive I guess and blame the homechecker ...* When there may have been more than a road stopping them adopting a cat*.


So because I was turned down by 2 rescues (because I wanted my cats to be indoor) you're inferring there is something about me or my situation which makes me an unsuitable cat owner?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

ClaireLily said:


> So because I was turned down by 2 rescues (because I wanted my cats to be indoor) you're inferring there is something about me or my situation which makes me an unsuitable cat owner?


It was a general comment and do note, I used the word "may."


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> It's laughable to infer the majority of homecheckers are going out with the intention of denying cats homes ... Of course they will say no to some people and when people are turned down, they can turn vindictive I guess and blame the homechecker ... When there may have been more than a road stopping them adopting a cat.


no, what is laughable is your refusal to accept the fact that many rescues organisations do in fact turn down perfectly good cat homes for no real reason whatsover.

Sadly your opinion and attitude are quite typical of many rescue volunteers who just assume everything they do is brilliant and they can't or don't need to improve. When the reality is, there is much room for improvement in cat rescue.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I don't think the people complaining on this thread/elswhere on the board should be considered representative of the experiences shared by all :hand:
> 
> I know lot's of people who have rescue cats and kittens that were home checked and passed by local rescues, some live near roads, some live in flats, some have dogs, children, some would you believe a combination ... Obviously some rescues are doing it right
> 
> It's laughable to infer the majority of homecheckers are going out with the intention of denying cats homes ... Of course they will say no to some people and when people are turned down, they can turn vindictive I guess and blame the homechecker ... When there may have been more than a road stopping them adopting a cat.


I am begining to find these comments bordering on offensive.I have had three cats one rescued and cared for through ,broken leg,reason she came to me in the first place,insulin dependant diabetic,hyperthyroidism,lived to be at least 18years .A moggy ,and a semi feral I looked after for approx 8 years before he finally moved in and was treated for skin cancer resulting on an ear being amputated.Had vet recommendation,worked with Afghan Rescue.Own a bungalow with huge garden,dont work, have veterinary experience,but as I live beside a busy road and wanted an indoor cat was refused.Even if I didnt live beside a busy road I would still want an indoor cat.Does that make me unsuitable.I know your comments are not directed at me as an individual but I am pretty sure that the majority of the people who have had the same refusal will be more or less similar to myself.To say that there may have been "more than a road"stopping them adopting does seem to me that you are inferring that they may not being completely honest.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> no, what is laughable is your refusal to accept the fact that many rescues organisations do in fact turn down perfectly good cat homes for no real reason whatsover.
> 
> Sadly your opinion and attitude are quite typical of many rescue volunteers who just assume everything they do is brilliant and they can't or don't need to improve. When the reality is, there is much room for improvement in cat rescue.


And yet more rescue bashing. It's sad how vindictive and destructive people (generalising) can be because they don't get what they want I guess.

Why on earth would anyone involved in rescue turn down good homes? I fully accept policies vary from rescue to rescue and that is their perogative.

However people successfully adopt rescue cats every day, which means the adopter is as happy as the rescue person :thumbup: So some rescues are getting it VERY right 

Are some rescues too "fussy" maybe they are, but by whose standards?


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

I personally think this is a no win situation.

I know for a fact I cant rescue and have an inkling Id be turned down anways but that doesnt mean me or other people that get turned down by rescue it just means rescue cats werent or arent the right fit for us.

Now I feel very guilty cause someone is laying on me and I need to get up but she looks so cute I dont want to move. Damn cat.


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## Cloudygirl (Jan 9, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> And yet more rescue bashing. It's sad how vindictive and destructive people (generalising) can be because they don't get what they want I guess.
> 
> Why on earth would anyone involved in rescue turn down good homes? I fully accept policies vary from rescue to rescue and that is their perogative.
> 
> ...


People do turn down good homes though. I wanted an indoor cat and was allowed but had to take two which was ok for me but not everyone can afford two or feels they have room for two.

A friend of mine who's cat had just died of old aged, aged we believe about 16 so decent age for a cat, looked at rescue and was refused because she rents her house (despite living on that street for a decade) and her garden backs onto a busy road (they want a cat that goes out). So she got two free kittens from gumtree which then encourages the cat breeding cycle to go on really which is a shame.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I know for a fact I cant rescue and have an inkling Id be turned down anways but that doesnt mean me or other people that get turned down by rescue it just means rescue cats werent or arent the right fit for us.


:thumbsup:

I think it's worth anyone who would sincerely like to adopt giving a try and see what happens. 
I once applied for a Pomeranian and did not get the dog, as rescue said a more suitable home was offered. I asked if they could explain in what way and they did. And I accepted their opinion, though I still think she would have been happy with me 

It won't stop me adopting in future though or make me gripe about the rescue concerned.

There are so many animals needing homes and so many rescues, with so many diverse homing policies and ideas, that ultimately, there is something for everyone ... If they are prepared to be flexible and look :thumbup:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I have no wish to "bash" any rescue - I applaud them all for the work they do. 

But - some are better than others. There ARE rescues (whether due to the organisation's policies or the individual homecheckers) that turn down perfectly good - even great - homes, for very poor reasons.

Now don't get me wrong - I am all for vetting homes, matching up suitable cats to new owners, and having certain minimum requirements to ensure the cats welfare and safety. What I do not like is rescues turning down good homes for ludicrous reasons - particularly when there are cats languishing in these places for months at a time, others being turned away even pts because rescues are full....

Take kittens as an example (as this was one of the problems we had). Many rescues will not adopt out to indoor only homes, unless they have a cat that is disabled or FIV+. A kitten is out of the question. Bear in mind that the kittens are too young to be going out anyway - so have no experience of being roaming cats - and could easily settle into an indoor home.

Are you really saying that it is better to keep such kittens waiting in a cattery? To keep further cats and kittens on a waiting list to come in? Than to rehome to a good home that wants the cat to live indoors - free from the risks of theft, traffic, dogs, anti-freeze poisoning, etc?

I am quite happy that many cats are successfully adopted daily - but many cats that could be adopted are not. There are regular threads on here about people being refused a rescue cat for no good reason, so it can't be that uncommon.

And rightly or wrongly - this situation DOES put people off rescuing. Some people will give up at the first hurdle - they get turned away by the first rescue and figure all will be the same. Others don't even bother trying, because they already expect to be turned down. I'm not talking about idiots and unsuitable homes here - I'm talking about perfectly good potential owners, offering perfectly good homes, who are going to byb's and oops litters because of this problem. 

If we want to reduce the number of cats in rescue, we need to allow normal people to adopt them.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> And yet more rescue bashing. It's sad how vindictive and destructive people (generalising) can be because they don't get what they want I guess.
> 
> Why on earth would anyone involved in rescue turn down good homes? I fully accept policies vary from rescue to rescue and that is their perogative.
> 
> ...


can you play another record, the "rescue bashing" one is wearing very thin. I volunteer in cat rescue and have done for years so I am not bashing just for the sake of it. My opinions are based on what I see and have seen for years in different cats rescues. Which is, blanket rules being applied arbitrarily by little Hilters on power trips. You don't want to accept that, which is your prerogative, but you are practically calling everyone else liars which is offensive, rude and unnessecary. I want to see cat resuce improve. I don't want to sit on my laurels and just assume we're all perfect. We are far from perfect. Many cat rescue organisations or local branches of national organisations are dire and the staff don't even follow the organisations guidelines, they make their own up as they go along. And it's people like you, with attitudes like yours that are holding back progress. To improve you have to actually first accept that there is a problem, and to do that you have to look at things with a critical eye and be open to accept that change is necessary for improvement.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Wow, this has gone off topic hasn't it, apologies op  

Wonder if it will still be running on Monday, will try and remember to look. Off to get ready for night out and house hunting tomorrow, hope we'll find a house where we will be able to have cats again ... if anyone will adopt out to me *yikes* :lol:


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> I think it's worth anyone who would sincerely like to adopt giving a try and see what happens.
> I once applied for a Pomeranian and did not get the dog, as rescue said a more suitable home was offered. I asked if they could explain in what way and they did. And I accepted their opinion, though I still think she would have been happy with me
> ...


Seeing as I will be living with my mother for the next 5 or more years I would have to wait until I move out as I have already looked at the rescues here after the last debate about this and found my mother would have to do all the paper work and interview (shes not liking the idea of people coming into your home) as she is the renter of our house if she doesnt want to do that we cant rescue.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Colette said:


> There ARE rescues (whether due to the organisation's policies or the individual homecheckers) that turn down perfectly good - even great - homes, for very poor reasons.
> 
> I am quite happy that many cats are successfully adopted daily - but many cats that could be adopted are not. There are regular threads on here about people being refused a rescue cat for no good reason, so it can't be that uncommon.
> 
> ...


the real problem is thought that like Amethyst, many people in cat rescue are unwilling to admit there is a problem. I know there's a problem, you know there's a problem, and the many people turned down daily for no real reason know there's a problem, but as long as the people answering the phones and doing home checks keep thinking they're brilliant and can do no wrong, nothing will ever change.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Wow, this has gone off topic hasn't it, apologies op
> 
> Wonder if it will still be running on Monday, will try and remember to look. Off to get ready for night out and house hunting tomorrow, hope we'll find a house where we will be able to have cats again ... if anyone will adopt out to me *yikes* :lol:


It may have gone of "topic" but the topic is part and parcel of the problem.Perfectly suitable people are being refused cats/kittens by rescue centres so they then have to go to to the only other available source,moggy breeders who are quite happy to supply the demand.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I don't see it as off topic at all - the whole process, of breeding - sale - surrendering / selling - rescue rehoming is all connected.

One person suggested early on that no moggy breeding can be ethical because of the problem of the number of cats needing homes already.

My objections to this are:

1) There is more to good breeding than numbers. I would prefer to see less (preferably none!) unethical / irresponsible breeders, but MORE good breeders - of both pedigrees and moggies. Things like home-rearing, socialisation, breeding for health and temperament etc. are just as important (if not more so) than numbers. These are issues that have a direct impact on the welfare of our cats.

2) There are many reasons for the current overpopulation problem. IMO, if we could get rid of all the kitten farmers and byb's the problem would be greatly reduced. If we could reduce the number of "oops" litters as well, the rescue crisis would shrink still further. And, allowing more suitable homes to adopt would be a great help in reducing the number of cats in rescues!

3) Although I appreciate there are differences between breeds of cat, they are generally not as distinct as different dog breeds. In most normal pet homes, owners don't "need" a certain breed of cat - any cat would do. 

So if we believe that "moggy breeding is bad because of the rescue crisis" then we should also consider that "all cat breeding is bad because of the rescue crisis". 
You don't have to look far to see that pedigrees are also having problems - go on to any of the free ad sites and you will find pages and pages of adverts for unregistered, un-health tested, pedigree kittens for sale. These affect the situation just as much as all those moggy kittens. 
No reason as far as I can see to single out moggies here - particularly as the original question was about ethical / responsible moggy breeding - ie not the farmers, byb's or ooops litters.

Could the same be said for dog breeds? Not just the crosses / mutts - but even between breeds? There are plenty of staffies in rescue, but very few chinese cresteds. Does that mean there are no ethical / responsible staffy breeders just because some people churn them out for profit or status? Or perhaps the folks who want a Chinese Crested should adopt a staffy instead?

Anyway, enjoy your house hunting. I'm sure you'll have no trouble adopting cats - so long as you live in the middle of nowhere, in a nice house with garden, with no children or other pets, are home all day every day, and don't rent!


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Colette said:


> I don't see it as off topic at all - the whole process, of breeding - sale - surrendering / selling - rescue rehoming is all connected.
> 
> One person suggested early on that no moggy breeding can be ethical because of the problem of the number of cats needing homes already.
> 
> ...


You do have some very valid points up until we start thinking about the health of kittens, ALL kittens.

Given the fact that your typical moggie is made up of lots of different breeds, and that not two moggies will have the exact same breeds in their mix (unless directly related of course) ... just how will you be able to do all of the appropriate health tests?

I don't have any lists or figures to hand (I think TB might be able to help with that) but I know there are many conditions for each breed, and some breeds have the same condition, but a different gene is responsible.

One thing I have learnt recently it that the genetics side of things when it comes to breeding is VERY complicated. That's when looking a breed such as my own, the BSH.

It would cost an absolute fortune to test for everything in moggie breeding stock! Each set of tests would be different for each moggie too. That's only if you know which breeds have gone into ... what 100 years of a particular moggies line?

Like I said earlier, you also have to take into account any mutations that may occur when certain mixes (moggies) breed with others.

It would take a long long time to safely breed a moggie where you have a good chance of getting the health side of things almost right.

Not only would it take a long time to sort the health side of things out, it would send the price of ethically bred moggies through the roof, can you imagine! 

I used to say that I would support anyone that chose to breed moggies provided they do so ethically. But I really don't see how you can do that without being able to health test as accurately as possible. The accuracy that is there now, should someone health test would fall so low below what I would accept as good enough to risk breeding.

The whole point of breeding ethically is to produce healthy kittens that new owners can love and cherish for years, without having to worry too much about them getting sick or dying young ... well it's a big part of it, and a big part of why people pay what they do for a pedigree. I'm aware of the other reasons people buy pedigree's, but the health side of it alone ... if you don't get it right you don't get to love and cherish the pedigree you chose to share a portion of your life with for long.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Just to be clear too. I would like to see all moggie *and* back yard pedigree breeding end for the time being. Not just moggie breeding.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Before even considering the thousands of moggies in need of homes from rescues, I don't believe that responsible breeding of moggies is feasible. It would be going into an unknown territory. Moggie queen could have inherited all sorts of ailments that have previously not been known to be inherited or to be checked for because moggies have never been researched in that way by veterinary science. It would be an uphill struggle to test for absolutely everything & where would the breeding cats come from? Were their breeders ethical? I think it could only be extremely good luck that it would ever get off the ground....


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## Sparkles87 (Aug 30, 2010)

Amethyst I'm aware that you will not get this till Monday, but I'm going to say it now anyway. I generally thoroughly enjoy your posts and do not want you to think that I'm trying to insult you as that is certainly not the case, but I'm finding some of your posts borderline offensive.

I could have easily accepted a knock-back with a valid reason as I'm a grown-up and not a child, but unfortunately nobody I contacted bothered to do a home-check on me or even find out much else of relevance OTHER than the fact that I was (possibly) intending to keep my cat/kitten indoors before refusing me. I entirely resent and am quite angered by being made to feel like some kind of second-rate pet owner. I've had animals ranging from rats to horses my entire life and each and every one has been well cared for and looked after responsibly. 

It is very interesting that you feel those on this thread who have spoken of poor experiences with regards to rehoming are 'rescue-bashing'. I'm sure you know this is not the case and are more than aware that most on this forum are very appreciative of what rescues do for the animals that we all love. It is also interesting you you keep inferring that these people are not being honest about said experience (saying 'may' or 'may have' numerous times does not negate the inference). One could be forgiven for thinking that you are simply a tad on the defensive side as you cannot justify, explain nor even acknowledge (it seems) the detrimental nature of the actions of these rescues. Nobody and nothing is perfect. 

Please stop insinuating that certain people here are liars; it's insulting and, in my eyes, does nothing to aid your cause. 

Sparkles


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Sparkles87 said:


> one has been well cared for and looked after responsibly.
> 
> Sparkles


I do agree, I was asked 
'do you live near main road' : 'no' 
'oh thats good have you owned pets before' 'yep'
'thats good do you haved a garden' 'nope'
'oh sorry cats have to go outside so we cant help you'

in a voice that made me feel like I was a piece of crap, same for every rescue. Yet Now I have a garden Im apprently the best owner that they want for their pets?! Crazy....


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> And yet more rescue bashing. It's sad how vindictive and destructive people (generalising) can be because they don't get what they want I guess.
> 
> Why on earth would anyone involved in rescue turn down good homes? I fully accept policies vary from rescue to rescue and that is their perogative.
> 
> ...


Your post are insulting and offensive to anyone who has ever been turned down by any rescue. 
You continually insinuate that the rescue was probably right as there must have been something very untoward that the very experienced home checker picked up on during the 30 second phone call.

You post many comments telling me (and others) that we are 'unsuitable', 'vindictive' and 'destructive' then you accuse us of 'rescue bashing' and resorting to insults :eek6:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Aurelia - I completely agree with you that at the moment breeding for healthy moggies would be difficult, if not impossible, but I don't see why it couldn't start - IF there are any ethical breeders out there to get the ball rolling.

From what I understand, certain inherited diseases are more common in certain breeds because of their small gene pools. So if one breed commonly suffers from a particular disease, breeding two (untested) cats of this breed are more likely to produce kittens with the disease, because there is a high chance that both parents will carry / suffer said disease. Obviously this is even more clear cut if the disease requires two copies of the problem gene as both parents would have to be carriers in order for kittens to be sufferers. It seems therefore less likely that a genuine moggy (i.e. totally mixed heritage, not just a cross between two pedigrees) would suffer from a disease requiring two copies of a problem gene.

What I would like to see (out of interest as much as anything else) is research into what inherited disorders do commonly affect moggies. This could be done looking at insurance claims or veterinary records for example. Or better still, if we could get moggy owners on board to get certain health tests done.

Once the research has been carried out, this could be used to determine which health tests would be worthwhile. For example, if one disease is unheard of in moggies there would be no point in testing for it, but if another disease was found to be prevalent, this would be one to test for.
Aside from that, any tests carried out over and above those found to be most vital would be beneficial in further reducing incidence of that disease.

Where pedigrees are used, they should of course be tested for the conditions known to be a problem in that breed.

I hope that makes sense. I know its a very pie in the sky idea at the moment, but all breeds had to start somewhere with regards to breeding for health - I just don't see why moggy breeders couldn't do the same.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

also with moggies 1 litter could have 5 dads as a cat will mate with ANYTHING!! When in call she doesnt care who it is, Ive just found out that 62% of moggies have the condition that my boy has and 12% of siamese, yet its not seen in Any other breed.

Out-crossing is done at the beginning of a program to ensure a large genepool, however with everything in life even if you health test animals can still become ill, like humans, we get ill sometimes.

Its a hard one to call, on the breeding section now alot of people are asking for help and it all seems to be pregnant moggies, so Im not sure that they would take part in a proper structured breeding program would they? ... really?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Colette said:


> Aurelia - I completely agree with you that at the moment breeding for healthy moggies would be difficult, if not impossible, but I don't see why it couldn't start - IF there are any ethical breeders out there to get the ball rolling.
> 
> From what I understand, certain inherited diseases are more common in certain breeds because of their small gene pools. So if one breed commonly suffers from a particular disease, breeding two (untested) cats of this breed are more likely to produce kittens with the disease, because there is a high chance that both parents will carry / suffer said disease. Obviously this is even more clear cut if the disease requires two copies of the problem gene as both parents would have to be carriers in order for kittens to be sufferers. It seems therefore less likely that a genuine moggy (i.e. totally mixed heritage, not just a cross between two pedigrees) would suffer from a disease requiring two copies of a problem gene.
> 
> ...


A great reply Colette! It sounds a lot less daunting prospect this way.

However, it would take years and years for enough information to be gathered to give even the basic idea of what's what. Correlation of enough stats from vets across just the UK alone would take ... ugh, I dread to think! There is no way I'd support any moggie breeding in the mean time ... UNLESS they are taking part in and actively trying to do just that! It will be an expensive process, I'm not sure many folk will even want to take part .

I do agree it should be started though. But who's going to do it?


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Lots of really good ideas here! 

I think most of the objections to ethical moggy breeding apply equally to pedigree breeding - escapes, people bending the rules etc. I'd actually want to see a big price hike for moggies so that rescues become more attractive, and so that people can't nip out and buy a kitten for the price of a take-away. The only sticking point would be Aurelia's one about genetic problems but Colette seems to have solved that one! 

As I said before, I reckon the ultimate way to get people to breed moggies ethically (including medical testing) is to make it far worse for them if they don't. But that requires legislation and that isn't going to be forthcoming any time soon.

So how about some kind of publicity campaign raising the awareness of BYB and the rest? I'm thinking we'd need a TV programme like HFW and the battery chickens with a much-respected celeb presenting. Then we could make use of social networking, Facebook and the like. The campaign could be sponsored by the likes of [email protected] who could join in by banning pet ads and running workshops as previously mentioned. [email protected] could give out goody bags with vouchers in so that they get repeat custom - result!

The only ethical alternative to researching the different lines in moggy genes and getting together a registered breeding programme - with teeth - is to ban moggy breeding altogether, forever, through forced neutering of all non-peds.

Or we carry on as per, with rescues barely able to cope and thousands of unwanted cats. 

Is that what we really want?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

troublecat said:


> Lots of really good ideas here!
> 
> I think most of the objections to ethical moggy breeding apply equally to pedigree breeding - escapes, people bending the rules etc. I'd actually want to see a big price hike for moggies so that rescues become more attractive, and so that people can't nip out and buy a kitten for the price of a take-away. The only sticking point would be Aurelia's one about genetic problems but *Colette seems to have solved that one!*


You have some spirit I give you that  But if only it were that simple! It's far from solved unfortunately.



troublecat said:


> As I said before, I reckon the ultimate way to get people to breed moggies ethically (including medical testing) is to make it far worse for them if they don't. But that requires legislation and that isn't going to be forthcoming any time soon.
> 
> So how about some kind of publicity campaign raising the awareness of BYB and the rest? I'm thinking we'd need a TV programme like HFW and the battery chickens with a much-respected celeb presenting. Then we could make use of social networking, Facebook and the like. The campaign could be sponsored by the likes of [email protected] who could join in by banning pet ads and running workshops as previously mentioned. [email protected] could give out goody bags with vouchers in so that they get repeat custom - result!


As I said before some good ideas. I just don't know if they will work in practice! However I'm game for a challenge if you (collective 'you') are 



troublecat said:


> The only ethical alternative to researching the different lines in moggy genes and getting together a registered breeding programme - with teeth - is to ban moggy breeding altogether, forever, through forced neutering of all non-peds.
> 
> Is that what we really want?


Yes! The only moggie breeding I will ever accept now is breeding taking place ONLY with the aim to ensuring health firstly and then everything else that comes after that, which lives up to the expectations of pedigree breeding.

In effect the moggie will become an official 'breed' by doing this. I've no problem doing that though. It saves a lot of kitty lives and hopefully will ultimately lead to only healthy well raised kittens being born, which in turn would mean the rescue problems would become a thing of the past. Surely that is the most important objective for anyone breeding an animal.

It's a massive task, and I'm just not sure if it will work.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

:lol: Aurelia, okay I was jumping the gun! But Colette does seem to have come up with a possible way forward, which is a start.

I have no problem with moggies becoming 'breeds' either.

Let me know if you want to go ahead with some sort of campaigning, I'm up for it! :thumbup:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm always up for a bit of campigning - although I have no idea where to start.... I wonder if any of the cat mags would consider doing an article on it?

But I do feel that given the current crisis, the first step should still be to do what we can to get rid of the farmers, byb's and oops litters - before worrying about the better breeders just yet. 

Personally I would like to see legal restrictions like breeders having to be licensed, and only those with a licence being able to own entire cats over a certain age. Plus maximum numbers for breeders in order to weed out the intesive kitten farmers. Not to mention a ban on the sale of cats (and dogs!) in pet shops, which is something that really disgusts me. Unfortunately I am all too aware that getting legal changes made is a nightmare, and often impossible to enforce.  Would be a good start though.

Weed out the worst breeders first, the ones with no consience, then aim to improve the ones that are open to suggestions.

I know this might sound selfish, but I would love to see ethical breeding of mogs become the norm. I like and admire many of the beautiful pedigrees on here, but for me the moggies will always win hands down. Just wish some decent breeders existed.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I know ill sound negative but those people who go and buy a kitten at 5-8weeks old for £10-100, then let it out, do you Really think that they are going to give a toss or comply with the rules? :frown:

It would need some sort of govenernment backing, maybe a petition?

I was watching the tv the other day and these people had a staffy with lots of problems, a boy and they didnt want to neuter it as they wanted to breed it, no health tests, no papers and the dog wasnt exactly balanced.

I was expecting the vet to say 'you need these health tests, itll could change your boys personality, the cost, etc' but nothing! didnt mention a sausage!

I think that people need alot of educating, obviously we didnt know all of this at one point, buyers need to do research aswell as the sellers advising, as buyers have that responcablity to.

maybe some sort of pack or law needs to be brought in, if people still dont listen, some just dont want to, like that women mentioned, £120 per kitten going at 6weeks old, thats nearly 5k, say her cats have 5litters a\ year?? WHY on earth would she want to stop doing that? her 'profit' would go to ZERO if she did it like a good breeder...whats the point of her listening? she obviously doesnt give a toss about animal welfare. :frown:

Theres also a puppy famer in my town, the rspca/council/police shes even been on tv!! she is STILL churing out pups from ireland!? HOW?!?! she makes you sign a contract when you buy the pup saying 'sold as seen' most die when they leave within a week!

Im sorry but how can anyone think that that is right??? : How is she Still going? I know she changes her name every few months and now suppllys the new local pet shop with kittens that are 4/5weeks old no mum or litter mates and pups that are about 5weeks old, sitting in a small cage no mum or litter mates crapping where they sit.

yet people STILL buy them!?!? IF they didnt...these places wouldnt exsist!!

How can anyone even with no research think that that is ok? its beyond me :frown: 

sorry for my spelling im writing in the dark.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

It's about time that pet shops were banned from selling kittens and puppies.  Taylorbaby, has someone reported the pet shop? Sounds like they are being negligent.

The law needs tightening - it does look like there are moves to do this for dogs.

Ultimately regulated breeding of moggies *and* peds will only work if there is legislation to back it up. People need to find that non-compliance hits them hard both in the pocket and through losing their liberty if need be.


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## kerfuffle (Nov 23, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> Im sorry but how can anyone think that that is right??? : How is she Still going? I know she changes her name every few months and now suppllys the new local pet shop with kittens that are 4/5weeks old no mum or litter mates and pups that are about 5weeks old, sitting in a small cage no mum or litter mates crapping where they sit.
> 
> yet people STILL buy them!?!? IF they didnt...these places wouldnt exsist!!


My brother bought our second dog from a pet store at 10 months because he couldn't stand how the dog was being treated at the pet store.  Sometimes when you see those situations, you really can't stand walking away even if you leave a few hundred pounds poorer, especially if you know you can give the dog a good home.

I don't blame people for buying the animals to "rescue" them, because the animals shouldn't be left suffering poor conditions and you can't really take the animal and not pay for it from a pet store. I do think pet stores should be banned from selling animals though, because they obviously cannot care for them appropriately.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I personally love moggies and would never want a pedigree -not that they are not gorgeous but I my preference is moggie - I would deffo go to a rescue centre and get from there :thumbup:

I do think this debate is v confusing though just like I often see in the dog section - about who should breed and who should'nt - seems if you are a ethical pedigree breeder then you are perfectly right to breed but any other and you are not - I dont agree with this tbo - regardless of how or what you are breeding - the facts remain the same - rescues are full to the brim - and the current economical climate the way it is at present IMO means NO-ONE should be breeding.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> I personally love moggies and would never want a pedigree -not that they are not gorgeous but I my preference is moggie - I would deffo go to a rescue centre and get from there :thumbup:
> 
> I do think this debate is v confusing though just like I often see in the dog section - about who should breed and who should'nt - seems if you are a ethical pedigree breeder then you are perfectly right to breed but any other and you are not - I dont agree with this tbo - regardless of how or what you are breeding - the facts remain the same - rescues are full to the brim - and the current economical climate the way it is at present IMO means NO-ONE should be breeding.


Whilst understandable, this approach of no one breeding at all would kill off some breeds.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

kerfuffle said:


> My brother bought our second dog from a pet store at 10 months because he couldn't stand how the dog was being treated at the pet store.  Sometimes when you see those situations, you really can't stand walking away even if you leave a few hundred pounds poorer, especially if you know you can give the dog a good home.
> 
> I don't blame people for buying the animals to "rescue" them, because the animals shouldn't be left suffering poor conditions and you can't really take the animal and not pay for it from a pet store. I do think pet stores should be banned from selling animals though, because they obviously cannot care for them appropriately.


I know it will sound mean BUT people cant feel sorry for them and buy them, as they only open a place for the Next animal to come along, never buy a animal that you feel sorry for, then these people will see that they cant sell them and hopefully stop breeding.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> Whilst understandable, this approach of no one breeding at all would kill off some breeds.


Yes I suppose there is that but how does that actually work?? sorry im not very au fait with breeding - I hasten to add I dont mean to stop breeding indefinetly - but maybe just for a period of time. Even if it was say once a year for a period of time


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Yes I suppose there is that but how does that actually work?? sorry im not very au fait with breeding - I hasten to add I dont mean to stop breeding indefinetly - but maybe just for a period of time. Even if it was say once a year for a period of time


So all good breeders with breeding and showing plans all comply and stop breeding, you cant leave cats to call so will have to neuter and start again, while people with 'accidental' litters who dont care carry on...cant see it happening  :frown:


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Yes I suppose there is that but how does that actually work?? sorry im not very au fait with breeding - I hasten to add I dont mean to stop breeding indefinetly - but maybe just for a period of time. Even if it was say once a year for a period of time


If ethical breeders stopped for one year then that would mean either spaying/neutering cats or putting them on the feline equivalent of the "pill". The latter, for a full year, potentially could cause some health issues.

Not to mention if the ethical breeders stopped that the unethical would see a "gap in the market" & move in.

There was a period after the war that many breeds of cats & dogs almost went extinct & reduced the gene pool which is *NOT *something that should happen again.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> So all good breeders with breeding and showing plans all comply and stop breeding, you cant leave cats to call so will have to neuter and start again, while people with 'accidental' litters who dont care carry on...cant see it happening  :frown:


Yes there are loopholes I can see that hun - but I still cannot get my head round the fact that because they are pedigree that means it justifies breeding - Im not aiming this at you hun I think your kits are beautiful and you do a fantastic job but the fact is there are still going to be cats in rescue suffering and not getting homed because people are buying from pedigree - im not saying its wrong at all but I just dont get how one is right and one isnt


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

I thought animal welfare laws had been tightened up in the last few years so that neglect is taken into account as well as cruelty. Then how can it be that pet shops are still able to sell animals and keep them in such appalling conditions?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Yes there are loopholes I can see that hun - but I still cannot get my head round the fact that because they are pedigree that means it justifies breeding - Im not aiming this at you hun I think your kits are beautiful and you do a fantastic job but the fact is there are still going to be cats in rescue suffering and not getting homed because people are buying from pedigree - im not saying its wrong at all but I just dont get how one is right and one isnt


why/where are the rescues coming from though? moggies being over-bred as people arent neutering then dont want to deal with it, obviously other reasons to


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> why/where are the rescues coming from though? moggies being over-bred as people arent neutering then dont want to deal with it, obviously other reasons to


I would say thats deffo a reason - lack of education when people are getting cats - and how to look after them yes thats a very big part - and it needs to be tackled - an impossible feat I know


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## Cloudygirl (Jan 9, 2011)

In an ideal world everyone would want a mog but the fact is that not every body does. Noone tells someone who buys a springer spaniel for example that they should have a mongrel because it's in a rescue. 

The people that are responsible for the cat problem are normally moggy owners who don't neuter their cats and let them out so cats will go wandering and get preggers which leads to ferrals. Also people who want their cat to have one litter because it's cute but it's with the local tom leading to health problems that they can't pay for so kits get dumped. 

Also people who want cats because they are "cute" then when they see cute kitten 15 months down the line, number 1 unneutered cat gets dumped for cute kitten. 

Then there is the problem with rescue cats where rescue centres don't imo apply policies across the board. 

For example when I went to look a cat to a rehoming day I was initially told I couldn't have these two as indoor cats. Not allowed that was it, then later got talking to the person that was fostering them, who incidentally also had pedigree cats that she kept indoors, and she said she would prefer them to go to a safe indoor home and liked me so I ended up with them. So that is a centre that isn't even applying a policy uniformly in one branch, imagine that nationally. 

My suggestion would be that it becomes a legal requirement for all cats entering a rescue to be both microchipped and neutered before being rehomed or if they are rehomed before them getting vouchers and it being checked that it is done and conditional of the rehoming (I know this doesn't happen everywhere), and also for cats protection/ pdsa etc to offer free neutering for all people with cats irrespective of income. Yes this would be expensive in the short term but in the longer term I think would pay off as they would get far fewer cats to look after. 

I have a friend that is getting her boys neutered this month but she's had to really save for it because she has several children, her husband is the sole earner etc so money is tight but they don't qualify for benefits so she couldn't get help towards the cost. Now she is a responsible pet owner but you can imagine other people letting them out and them ending up with accidental litters. 

In an ideal world everyone has savings but many moggy owners won't.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Okay, people, I've just checked out the [email protected] website and they have a charity that helps support animal adoption. 

Before I e-mail them about banning kitten/puppy ads from their shops are we sure they allow this? I don't live near a [email protected] to go and check myself.


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## Cloudygirl (Jan 9, 2011)

troublecat said:


> Okay, people, I've just checked out the [email protected] website and they have a charity that helps support animal adoption.
> 
> Before I e-mail them about any banning kitten/puppy ads from their shops are we sure they allow this? I don't live near a [email protected] to go and check myself.


I have no idea sorry.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cloudygirl said:


> In an ideal world everyone would want a mog but the fact is that not every body does. Noone tells someone who buys a springer spaniel for example that they should have a mongrel because it's in a rescue.
> 
> The people that are responsible for the cat problem are normally moggy owners who don't neuter their cats and let them out so cats will go wandering and get preggers which leads to ferrals. Also people who want their cat to have one litter because it's cute but it's with the local tom leading to health problems that they can't pay for so kits get dumped.
> 
> ...


I think that statement is a bit off the mark tbo lol - I dont think you can say many moggy owners wont have savings A lot of moggy owners choose to have moggies and shower them with money just a pedigree owner does


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

troublecat said:


> Okay, people, I've just checked out the [email protected] website and they have a charity that helps support animal adoption.
> 
> Before I e-mail them about banning kitten/puppy ads from their shops are we sure they allow this? I don't live near a [email protected] to go and check myself.


Erm, surely this is pointless since they themselves sell animals!?!


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## Cloudygirl (Jan 9, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> I think that statement is a bit off the mark tbo lol - I dont think you can say many moggy owners wont have savings A lot of moggy owners choose to have moggies and shower them with money just a pedigree owner does


I don't think it's wide of the mark at all. I live in an area where low incomes are the norm and know of tons of people who aren't working but have 4 cats, 2 dogs etc etc none of which are neutered.

I choose to have mogs personally. I have savings, I had originally thought of having a maine coon but then felt guilty about potentially buying a cat and there being so many cats in rescues.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Messyhearts, do they actually sell kittens/puppies? I have no idea, I've only ever been in one once and all they had were gerbils etc.

The thinking behind this is that many irresponsible breeders (esp. of moggies) use shop notice boards as a way of getting custom. Ads at [email protected] might even have added vaule as they may appear more ethical than those in a newsagents. [email protected] makes much of their animal ethics and taking a stand on this would be good for their PR.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

With regards to affordability of neutering, I've looked at the CP website and their schemes seemed aimed largely at people on benefit or who are students. My mum used to work for an AIDS charity and they found that looking at who is in receipt of benefit is a rubbish way of assessing financial need. Many people fall through the cracks because they are unable to work but don't qualify for benefits, and even where people do work there is still sometimes barely enough money for food etc.

In an ideal world people wouldn't get a cat if they couldn't afford the cost of neutering, but life isn't like that. I don't know if it is sustainable for CP to offer free neutering for everyone indefinitely, but offering vouchers for a three month period might be effective. Even amongst people who could afford neutering the take-up would probably be high, just because the general mentality is to love a freebie.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Neutering can be v affordable with a bit of shopping around. We have a local neuter clinic that does it for £20 for anyone without the need for vouchers.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

troublecat said:


> Okay, people, I've just checked out the [email protected] website and they have a charity that helps support animal adoption.
> 
> Before I e-mail them about banning kitten/puppy ads from their shops are we sure they allow this? I don't live near a [email protected] to go and check myself.


they do ive read them!



troublecat said:


> Messyhearts, do they actually sell kittens/puppies? I have no idea, I've only ever been in one once and all they had were gerbils etc.
> 
> The thinking behind this is that many irresponsible breeders (esp. of moggies) use shop notice boards as a way of getting custom. Ads at [email protected] might even have added vaule as they may appear more ethical than those in a newsagents. [email protected] makes much of their animal ethics and taking a stand on this would be good for their PR.


even their rats /gerbils are from rat/gerbil farmers


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

troublecat said:


> Messyhearts, do they actually sell kittens/puppies? I have no idea, I've only ever been in one once and all they had were gerbils etc.
> 
> The thinking behind this is that many irresponsible breeders (esp. of moggies) use shop notice boards as a way of getting custom. Ads at [email protected] might even have added vaule as they may appear more ethical than those in a newsagents. [email protected] makes much of their animal ethics and taking a stand on this would be good for their PR.


I think selling ANY animal in a shop is terrible. The one near us sells giant rabbits who are as big as my Maine Coon & in a tiny little pen. Where do they come from, too???? It isn't just cats & dogs that people should be concerned about - the same ethics apply to all animals including fish.


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## Cloudygirl (Jan 9, 2011)

troublecat said:


> With regards to affordability of neutering, I've looked at the CP website and their schemes seemed aimed largely at people on benefit or who are students. My mum used to work for an AIDS charity and they found that looking at who is in receipt of benefit is a rubbish way of assessing financial need. Many people fall through the cracks because they are unable to work but don't qualify for benefits, and even where people do work there is still sometimes barely enough money for food etc.
> 
> In an ideal world people wouldn't get a cat if they couldn't afford the cost of neutering, but life isn't like that. I don't know if it is sustainable for CP to offer free neutering for everyone indefinitely, but offering vouchers for a three month period might be effective. Even amongst people who could afford neutering the take-up would probably be high, just because the general mentality is to love a freebie.


and also being able to get them done somewhere locally. I know my friend's mother did have a voucher for neutering as she and her husband are pensioners, but they had to get it done somewhere 25 miles away and neither of them have a car. In the end son in law took the cats for her but not everyone has that option.


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## christie12 (Sep 18, 2010)

with ped cats you know the parentage for at least 5 generations , with moggies you dont! so how can you breed moggies with expectations without any idea of what is in the background? you would have to monitor all lines for generations and surely that would be impossible because by then they would either have to be inbred because every time a new stud was introduced you would need to know his history ?? i really cannot see how it would work


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cloudygirl said:


> I don't think it's wide of the mark at all. I live in an area where low incomes are the norm and know of tons of people who aren't working but have 4 cats, 2 dogs etc etc none of which are neutered.
> 
> I choose to have mogs personally. I have savings, I had originally thought of having a maine coon but then felt guilty about potentially buying a cat and there being so many cats in rescues.


Im glad you have a moggy  although the Maine Coons are stunning I agree.

I too live in an area where there are low incomes but Ive found these people normally put their animals first and will in fact go without themselves to ensure the health and safety of their pet.... in our area also for those on benefits there is lots of help when it comes to vetinary care - if you do enough research and are on a low income you can still have a pet and ensure good quality of life - take the PDSA - if u receive benefits then you only have to make a donation when recieving medical care for your pet. I dont think think lack of "savings" means you love your cat or any other animal any less - in fact some owners of pets who have tons of money and buy dogs merely as an accessory and once bought dont really integrate that animal as a "family" pet are worse owners imo than those without huge amounts of money 

Anyway sorry to go off topic lol:lol:


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## Cloudygirl (Jan 9, 2011)

which is great if you can get there. 

When I got my boys I had a voucher from the rescue for the second vaccination which is great but you could only have it done at two vets. One of which was 7 miles away but in the country. Tiny vets and there would be no way you could get there without a car, no public transport. The other was 15 miles away and out of the county, so again without a car you'd have to take about 4 buses which you can't really do with a cat. I only had three days from getting them to get them in for their second vac or else they would have had have the whole course again. I live in the town centre and there are 3 fairly big vets within walking distance but you couldn't use any of those. I'm sure it's a matter of contracts and goodwill etc with the vets but it really really doesn't make it easy. 

Our nearest pdsa place I think is 30ish miles away. 

I can quite easily see why people even with vouchers don't end up getting their rescue kittens vaccinated or neutered because of problems with transport etc. 

It's things like this that I wish they would seriously look at as I think it could make a huge difference to the cat population.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I went to the PDSA with my friend about 6/8 months ago, not one person had a cross or mongrel dog or cat, ALL the dogs were extremly expensive puppies, from alsakan malamutes, dog de boudeuax (litter of 10 pups) and 2 dogs then 2 pups with someone else, french bulldogs, pugs, ! GSDs, labs, staffs, birman, siamese. and 1 moggie.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Cloudygirl said:


> Then there is the problem with rescue cats where rescue centres don't imo apply policies across the board.
> 
> For example when I went to look a cat to a rehoming day I was initially told I couldn't have these two as indoor cats. Not allowed that was it, then later got talking to the person that was fostering them, who incidentally also had pedigree cats that she kept indoors, and she said she would prefer them to go to a safe indoor home and liked me so I ended up with them. So that is a centre that isn't even applying a policy uniformly in one branch, imagine that nationally.


this is a very big part of the problem of overcrowded rescue centres. If they all had realistic policies and enforced those policies across the board, many cats and kittens would find excellent homes AND many decent cat loving people who can offer excellent homes would not feel they have to resort to buying kittens from back yard breeders and "accidental" litters.

I think instead of focussing energies on a scheme that is certainly doomed to fail (licensing of moggy breeders) that tackling the problems within rescue orgnaisations would be far better, more realistic and far easier achievable. Rescue orgnaisation are after all answerable to us, the general public who donate to them and fund them. Back yard breeders and owners of "accidentally" pregnant moggies are answerable to no one.


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## ClaireLily (Jul 8, 2008)

Hmmm, moggie owners not having savings, what a sweeping statement that was!!!!

I have 3 moggies and have savings and have my girls insured. My mum has a moggie and a ragdoll, she has less savings than me.

I could afford to go out tmrw and buy a pedigree cat but I choose not to, not because of the costs involved but because I don't really see the point in having pedigree pets if they are not to be shown or bred from. 

I say leave the peds to the people who know most about them, folks who can better lines and improve health etc. Those that wish to show and breed. If you want a pet why not have a moggie? It's the same with designer dogs, my animals are not fashion statements they are part of the family.

Before anyone gets tetchy, I have no issues with ped breeding as long as it's done properly, I love ped cats and adore the coonies and NFCs I only don't have one because I have neither the time or inclination to show or breed cats.


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## ginajade (Nov 20, 2010)

I LOVE my moggies ..could'nt ever see me having a ped..And my bambinos are very well looked after.. That all i wanted to say.


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## Cloudygirl (Jan 9, 2011)

ClaireLily said:


> Hmmm, moggie owners not having savings, what a sweeping statement that was!!!!


I really don't think it is at all. I said many not all. I'm a moggie owner myself and I'm a home owner and have savings.

There are many moggies out there who's owners are on low incomes with little savings and I'm not sure that you could say the same about pedigree cats. Just to be clear I love moggies, I don't see them as inferior in any way but it's fact that they cost less initially and so are more easily affordable. People think maybe about the initial cost of the cat and think they will worry about the cost of the neuter when it comes and it gets delayed which leads to "accidental litters".


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

The only connection I can see between lack of savings,moggy owners and not spaying is that the majority of unneutered moggies are possibly owned by people who do not have "savings".That said I do not believe that to be a valid reason for not neutering.If £5 is put away once a week there would be more than enough to neuter by the time the kittens were old enough.


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## ginajade (Nov 20, 2010)

Theres no reason for cats not to be 'done' these days.. the cats protection league do offers quite often


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

My cats are MOGGY or crossbred cats.

Ill admit I dont have alot of money, I have to save for things. Im saving to go out on a big shopping trip for my cats.

Yes sometimes Ive used my credit card to pay for things they need. Ive had to look around for a better and more reasonable priced vet.

BUT my cats have some great food money can buy, water, water fountain, cat scratchers, toy BOX filled with toys, a warm and safe house and have always gone straight to the vets when anything has happened.

Even drove in my dads old beat up car, listening to my dad rant away about something, in snowy weather with a screaming upset cat in the back, all because she scratched her eye and it had gunk in it. 2 hrs car ride that gave me grey hair and more stress lines. :lol:

I put a large sum of money in a saving account a month, I then put some in a cats savings for my cats for any future cat bills ( I dont insur) 

Every animal in this house is well cared for and loved. This will also be a forever home for them 

My exs family is very very very well off. Yet they believe in shock collar training their dog (dont bother getting up from your lawn chair and get the dog back just shock her until she comes back), dont let the cats get used to the new area out in the country (I believe they have lost all their cats bar one which hides in the house as the dog chases it) and heaven forbid they just got a horse :scared: wait until a major bill comes with the horse and we will see how long its there.

So yeh more money and more saving does not mean a better home.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

messyhearts said:


> I think selling ANY animal in a shop is terrible. The one near us sells giant rabbits who are as big as my Maine Coon & in a tiny little pen. Where do they come from, too???? It isn't just cats & dogs that people should be concerned about - the same ethics apply to all animals including fish.


Totally agree. Tony Banks tried to get the law changed on this years ago didn't he, so that pet shops were banned from selling all animals. Shame on our country that he wasn't successful.

I could also tell you some sickening stories about a man I know who breeds rats etc as snake food - totally unregulated. :frown:


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

It did take me awhile to get my cats spayed or neutered

Deckers first vet wanted 600$ plus for a spay, a few months later I found a better vet that would spay for roughly 200$

Horris it took us awhile to get him to the vets as both my mom and I had to book time off in advance and sometimes it just didnt match up with the vets but he did get done in the end.

Soda I waited until she was nearly a year as I felt she was to small at 5 months to be done and wanted to let her grow and mature more before she was done.

Kira was my aunts cat and was done when she had her.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

catsmum said:


> this is a very big part of the problem of overcrowded rescue centres. If they all had realistic policies and enforced those policies across the board, many cats and kittens would find excellent homes AND many decent cat loving people who can offer excellent homes would not feel they have to resort to buying kittens from back yard breeders and "accidental" litters.
> 
> I think instead of focussing energies on a scheme that is certainly doomed to fail (licensing of moggy breeders) that tackling the problems within rescue orgnaisations would be far better, more realistic and far easier achievable. Rescue orgnaisation are after all answerable to us, the general public who donate to them and fund them. Back yard breeders and owners of "accidentally" pregnant moggies are answerable to no one.


I do agree that there has to be consistency within rescue organisations and a more realistic attitude to what makes a 'good' home. But just because results are easier to achieve with that it doesn't make it wrong to tackle irresponsible breeding and the suffering that goes with it. That'd be like challenging the failings of social services whilst not doing anything about children being treated cruelly at home.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> I think selling ANY animal in a shop is terrible. The one near us sells giant rabbits who are as big as my Maine Coon & in a tiny little pen. Where do they come from, too???? It isn't just cats & dogs that people should be concerned about - the same ethics apply to all animals including fish.


The small animals in pet shops more often than not come from rodent farms- think battery hen conditions but with rabbits, rats, hamsters, mice etc stuffed into the cramped cages instead. The prettier ones may be 'lucky' enough to be sent to a pet shop for sale to the general public, which consists a widely varying demographic of people who may or may not provide the animal with appropriate care & a loving forever home until the end of their days
The not-so-pretty & therefore apparently less worthy end up as reptile food, and the breeders used to proliferate this pitiful cycle will be bred from repeatedly until they're used up & then become reptile food themselves


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Bit off topic, but gerbils only ended up as pets because someone conducting experiments on them thought they were cute and took one home for their daughter! :frown:


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

These are precisely the reasons why I would never entertain the idea of having a pet rodent - they tend to be disregarded when it comes to ethics because they aren't as cute or as "important" as cats or dogs. Buying any living creature from a pet shop is unethical.


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## Sparkles87 (Aug 30, 2010)

I can see the connection between moggy owners and lack of savings, but I think it's a tentative one at best. A lot of people on a low-income can and do save a little despite being short of cash.

As it happens I'm a student with a part-time job and although my partner works full-time his salary is rubbish and he won't be seeing a raise or bonus for quite some time (being a civil servant isn't the best in this economic climate). Unsurprisingly our joint income is fairly meager (I can't complain, we both have jobs), however we make sure we put at least £50 per month aside in case William should need it. I know this isn't even really enough to be classed as proper savings but the thought is there and the fund is getting steadily larger. 

Further to this when we (Well, I ) do our monthly budget William is allocated a certain proportion of our disposable income as his own for anything we choose to buy him outside of his regular food. He is also vaccinated, insured, and neutered and we will get him microchipped very soon. OH and I haven't had a holiday since we got together (5 years ago) and won't get one this year as planned, but we know that William is well cared for and in the event of an emergency we have a little bit of money behind us so we can still pay the vet then live whilst waiting for the insurance company to pay out. I know that if OH and I were ever really desperately skint we would live happily on Tesco value instant noodles as long as William was still getting his Grau. 

I certainly do not think that a wealthy owner necessarily means a better standard of care than that which any pet would receive living with a lower-income family.

I know it's a bit off-topic, I'm just in a chatty mood today 

Sparkles
xx


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

troublecat said:


> I do agree that there has to be consistency within rescue organisations and a more realistic attitude to what makes a 'good' home. But just because results are easier to achieve with that it doesn't make it wrong to tackle irresponsible breeding and the suffering that goes with it. That'd be like challenging the failings of social services whilst not doing anything about children being treated cruelly at home.


i just see it as learning to walk before attempting to run.

Setting achievable (more realistic) goals initially, and if and when those are reached, then raising the bar and going for the harder stuff.

if the inconsistency of the rescue/rehoming issue was addressed first, you could also pull those you have to deal within rescue organisations on board to help acheive future goals (collective "you")

setting too high goals is too often the downfall of many a cat welfare project as people get disheartened when results aren't acheived. Morale is always better and volunteers are always more forthcoming when targets are being reached, and targets are reached when feet remain on the ground and realistic goals are chosen.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

I understand your reasoning, Catsmum. Going for SMART goals (specific, measurable, achieveable, realistic, timed) is the cornerstone of business coaching. 

I don't know that it's that inspirational though. I sometimes prefer to go for the impossible - imagine if we pull it off! 

I can't turn a blind eye to the suffering of breeding cats just because it's more practical right now. :frown:


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

a easy way to start if simple steps are needed is maybe

'rule 1' : ALL kittens moggies / crosses / peds, go to new homes at 12-13weeks of age, fully vac, wormed, weaned, litter trained with vet card. oh and well socialised/handled daily.

Thats a easy was to start?

then after bring in the health tests

'rule 2'

ALL breeding cats to be health tested

I mean there is so much more Id like to add but if its slow baby steps thats a good start?


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## Pardalis (Jan 15, 2011)

I've got a couple of genuine questions that you guys may be able to help me with. First of all, I thought moggies were a breed in their own right. And cross breeds are a mixture of pedigree cats and are not moggies at all. With the exception of breeds that have certain characteristics as a result of their environment and natural selection, most pedigrees are man made and have been selectively bred to look the way they do. I'm sure my cats are DSH and nothing else. A breed that has been around for hundreds of years to serve our needs as companion/mouse killer etc - difference is that they pick their own mate (whatever local cat happens to be around!) as opposed to us doing it for them. And the wide gene pool has made them successful. 
Second question. I would like to know what genetic faults moggies suffer from. This is so I can get mine tested and look after their future health. If they have a condition that may be exacerbated by something then I can prevent that something and hopefully have longer living and healthy cats. 
All explanations/help appreciated.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

moggies are a type rather than breed in that to classify as a breed they must have recognisable traits thats are common and passed from generation to generation.

ie you get DSH (domestic shorthair) DSLH (domestic semi longhair) and DLH (domestic longhair) possible all within one litter, in any colour combi.

Therefore they can be prone to any hereditory condition... depending on the health of their parents and how inbred their family line is, just cos they aren't specially bred as a rule doesn't mean they have a wide genetic pool, for example in my village one single tom cat managed to be pretty much every single male ancestor in the moggy population for about 10 years, mating with his own daughters/grandaughters (that were also daughters) and so on and so on... so a *tiny* gene pool and quite a high kitten mortality rate due to birth defects... this was simply because he was huge and killed any entire tom he came into contact with. 

with mogs as a rule there are just far too many variables to be able to predict their future health, unless you know their family trees for 4-8 generations like you would with a ped, that would give you an idea as to what problems may be in the line.

rule of thumb though - all cats ***may*** be prone to kidney failure, heart failure, hyperthyroidism, bladder stones, crystals in the urine and various cancers... generally as they getting are old/inactive/long term exposure to poor environment...


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Pardalis said:


> I've got a couple of genuine questions that you guys may be able to help me with. First of all, I thought moggies were a breed in their own right. And cross breeds are a mixture of pedigree cats and are not moggies at all. With the exception of breeds that have certain characteristics as a result of their environment and natural selection, most pedigrees are man made and have been selectively bred to look the way they do. I'm sure my cats are DSH and nothing else. A breed that has been around for hundreds of years to serve our needs as companion/mouse killer etc - difference is that they pick their own mate (whatever local cat happens to be around!) as opposed to us doing it for them. And the wide gene pool has made them successful.
> 
> Second question. I would like to know what genetic faults moggies suffer from. This is so I can get mine tested and look after their future health. If they have a condition that may be exacerbated by something then I can prevent that something and hopefully have longer living and healthy cats.
> All explanations/help appreciated.


For the same amount of years there has been an uncontrollable population of feral/moggie cats. Along with 'owners' who range from caring owners who would do anything to keep their kitties happy and healthy, to getting them purely for vermin control, so they don't even feed them let alone get them veterinary care. If they die, no problem there will be plenty more born to replace them.

The population of moggie/feral cats is so large it will take years and years (I said this earlier in the thread) to figure out what genetic faults they have and how to test for them.

Natural selection is really only ever an argument for people who wouldn't care that the farm down the road has cats and they are treat how I described above.

I watched an episode of Animal Cops on Sky the other week. They were attending an address where there had been reports of kittens wandering around and looking sick.

When they got there I was horrified to see there were kittens squashed on the road, and a few more had just dropped down dead. Plus adult cat remains were strewn everywhere. This was probably a good example of how things used to be (bar the squashed one on the road as there obviously weren't as many vehicles on the road back then) and still are in the worst cases. Would you really want to go back to that?

We've come a long way since the days when cats were used for vermin control mostly. So it's only appropriate that their welfare should matter a lot too.


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## Cloudygirl (Jan 9, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> a easy way to start if simple steps are needed is maybe
> 
> 'rule 1' : ALL kittens moggies / crosses / peds, go to new homes at 12-13weeks of age, fully vac, wormed, weaned, litter trained with vet card. oh and well socialised/handled daily.
> 
> ...


I think the price of moggies would go up so then you'd just get backstreet on the quiet breeders where the standards of care would be even worse.

It would work if everyone with a decent home could go to rescues instead and adopt (eliminating the need for a while at least for the moggie breeders) but given the policies of a lot of current rescues that wouldn't be an option.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

troublecat said:


> I understand your reasoning, Catsmum. Going for SMART goals (specific, measurable, achieveable, realistic, timed) is the cornerstone of business coaching.
> 
> I don't know that it's that inspirational though. I sometimes prefer to go for the impossible - imagine if we pull it off!
> 
> I can't turn a blind eye to the suffering of breeding cats just because it's more practical right now. :frown:


i'm not suggesting turning blind eyes, just suggesting setting realistic targets that have a tiny chance instead of unrealistic pie in the sky schemes

the reason I say this is because i see so many people crash and burn in cat rescue because they start off with unrealistic goals. the people who last the distance and do make a real difference for cats are the ones who go into it with realistic outlooks

but nothing wrong with dreams


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## Pardalis (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks for the replies.

I know that cats these days are no longer extensively used for vermin control - I was talking about in years gone by when we weren't so sentimental about animals. And of course, the cat hoarders cannot be encouraged although a lot of the time these people are mentally ill. The moggy's success has of course been due to its numbers. Natural selection must not be dismissed in indiginous small breed wildcats which is what I was referring to - for example, the scottish wildcat.

With regards to the genetic testing, surely this is not as impossible as you make out? If health tests for pedigrees have been developed as a result of cats suffering from genetic diseases; then the same could be applied to moggies. What common genetic ailments do moggies suffer from? And can they be tested for?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Pardalis said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> I know that cats these days are no longer extensively used for vermin control - I was talking about in years gone by when we weren't so sentimental about animals. And of course, the cat hoarders cannot be encouraged although a lot of the time these people are mentally ill. The moggy's success has of course been due to its numbers. Natural selection must not be dismissed in indiginous small breed wildcats which is what I was referring to - for example, the scottish wildcat.
> 
> With regards to the genetic testing, surely this is not as impossible as you make out? If health tests for pedigrees have been developed as a result of cats suffering from genetic diseases; then the same could be applied to moggies. What common genetic ailments do moggies suffer from? And can they be tested for?


Oh it's a lot more complicated hun. Given the amount of 'breeds' that will go into the make up of each individual moggie.

Say you have a moggie that is part BSH, MC, NFC, Persian, Birman, Ragdoll, plus about 5 injections of another moggie made up of an entirely different set of 'breeds' ... Can you see? Lots of possible genetic faults, plus lots of possible mutations to consider, that we might not even know about yet!

There are also recessive genes to consider. I'm not expert on genes but I think some can lay dormant for more than 5 generations.

There might be genes that mean a cat is more susceptible to cat flu, or any other kitten killer you can think of. Any ailment in a moggie could be because their gene mutations they have have made them more susceptible. Same with peds too mind.

I'm just rambling now, and like I say I'm not genealogist. I may well have it entirely wrong. But I've learned recently that it's a lot more complicated the further you look into it :crazy:

Not sure the Scottish Wildcat is a good example btw. Aren't they nearly extinct? No one wants that for moggies do they?


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## Pardalis (Jan 15, 2011)

Ok, so I can't do anything for my bog standard moggies! They don't have a pedigree bone in their body but I'll just look after them as I normally would.

As for those poor Scottish cats - I'm guessing it's us humans that have mucked that up!


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Pardalis said:


> Ok, so I can't do anything for my bog standard moggies! They don't have a pedigree bone in their body but I'll just look after them as I normally would.
> 
> As for those poor Scottish cats - I'm guessing it's us humans that have mucked that up!


Scottish wild cats are exactly that.Wild animals.Live a solitary,wild existence.Apart from a loss in habitat their main downfall is not so much that they themselves are nearly extinct but the species has interbred with domestic cats along the way so the true wildcat although still living as a wild cat is in many instances not" pure".
I'm sure someone will correct me if I have got this wrong.


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

catsmum said:


> i'm not suggesting turning blind eyes, just suggesting setting realistic targets that have a tiny chance instead of unrealistic pie in the sky schemes
> 
> the reason I say this is because i see so many people crash and burn in cat rescue because they start off with unrealistic goals. the people who last the distance and do make a real difference for cats are the ones who go into it with realistic outlooks
> 
> but nothing wrong with dreams


One thing I have to consider is that I haven't been involved with rescues for years. I can't exactly go toddling along and start telling them where they are going wrong, can I? Change has to come from within.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Cloudygirl said:


> I think the price of moggies would go up so then you'd just get backstreet on the quiet breeders where the standards of care would be even worse.
> 
> It would work if everyone with a decent home could go to rescues instead and adopt (eliminating the need for a while at least for the moggie breeders) but given the policies of a lot of current rescues that wouldn't be an option.


where are all these rescues coming from though?? un-neutered moggies mainly as people wont neuter then dont want to deal with it. :frown:

maybe make neutering to be done at 5-6months, if that was done rescues wouldnt be half as full as they are


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

the Scottish Wildcats are the victims of being out manouvered... their niche in nature has been overtaken by free roaming domestic cats which are far more adaptable and with their multiple seasons a year are able to outbreed the Scottish Wildcat.

Interbreeding has led to a lot of hybrids, some of which are sterile, further reducing the population/genepool.

There are only about 400 purebred Scottish Wildcats left between the Domestic cat out competing them and humans taking over their hunting grounds, though there are now several measures being taken to try save the Scottish Wildcat, even potentially bringing in European kits to crossbreed as they are pretty much identical in habits, temperment and characteristics.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I wonder. Is it illegal to spay a stray cat? What is classed as a 'stray' cat?

Would starting up a charity aimed at travelling the country to do random TNR (trap neuter release) ANY wandering cat be worth while? Not just ferals.

It would certainly start reducing the number of oops litters.

At the end of the day if you let your cat out entire it would be your own fault. If your pedigree escapes and also falls victim to the TNR scheme then you're not doing enough to ensure they don't escape, so should accept the consequences.

Before anyone jumps on me for that. It's merely an idea, but it is appealing!


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Aurelia, I think your idea would work if compulsory microchipping were introduced. Any cat that isn't microchipped is a stray and can be neutered.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Well no because that wouldn't prevent as many oops litters would it?

Some buy a kitten with a chip already. It doesn't mean they aren't going to be sure there are no oops kittens.

I do think a chip implanted when a cat is neurtured is a good idea though. Then any cat found wandering can be scanned to see if it's been 'done'. If not then ... into the mobile clinic and snip snip snip!


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## TomCat1 (Dec 22, 2010)

With regard to the whole "no more moggies/neuter and spay anthing that moves mentality" - I live in a place where 90% of ALL cats are spayed/neutered by 6m old and in total around 95-96% by done a year. We have 41 cats in our local rescue on the adoption page, with 6 who are reserved and many have been there for close to a year, with the requirement they have outside access, no other pets or children [i think its the no-other pets/children causing the slow rehome rate and of course the recession. Very few are new cats as I check this page almost weekly]I accept there are probably a few who don't make it onto the adoption page, and I am unsure as to how many kittens are in the shelter, but it seems to be consistantly low) and a small, mainly neutered feral population (on average they seem to find 2 litters, 3max feral litters a year, usually 2/3 kittens it seems, and are typically rehomed to the same people, or within a small circle - it is unusual for them to be rehomed to the general public).

I can also name off the top of my head 3 pedigree breeders (birman, bengal and british) but am unaware of any others, although I am sure a few more must exist.

Kittens here are starting to become like hen's teeth. Even in our busiest years, we have <10 litters advertised in our classifieds/at the vets, and maybe a further 5 or so that are homed by word of mouth. .So lets call it a maximum 15 litters in a good a year, with an average of 4 kittens a litter (I make that 60 cats, usually less). The pedigree breeders seem to each have 1-2 litters a year, and typically seem to be rehoming 2, 3 kittens at a time, so another 6)
So roughly 66 kittens a year needing homes at the busiest, not counting that typically most people who have a moggy litter keep 1 or 2 kittens (which are then spayed/neutered by 6m), and some even keep a whole litter (again generally spayed/neutered). 2 years ago, we had a poor kitten year, with about 8 litters in total including the pedigree ones, and people couldn't find kittens for love or money, I suspect this will become more and more common as we continue to spay/neuter at the rate we are).

We have a pretty low RTA rate (where I work which is one of two vet practices), we see <10 a year, typically and we are the first line for any emergencies. From talking to the shelter drivers who bring them in, they only occasionally find dead/squashed cats) and generally our oldest cats are living into their teens. We have a high vaccination rate (again, I would guestimate about 75% of the cats here are vaccinated yearly beyond initial kitten vax) and our resident population of felv/fiv etc is low - approx 4-5 cases a year where I work. Calici virus comes and goes, but it is typically found in low levels in our cat population.

I accept the situation on the mainland is dire with 1000s of cats needing homes, but here I think is a glimpse into what a lot of you are wishing would happen, and I have to say - be careful what you wish for. I think we seriously run the risk of either creating seriously inbred cats as our gene pool becomes more and more shallow, or worse still, losing entire cats all together. Yes the occasional cat is brought in from the mainland, especially pedigree, but again they are neutered PDQ (the pedigree breeders I know of typically have 2 or 3 breeding queens and one stud at any one time, the rest are neutered, typically after a litter or two).


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

I know a couple areas with compulsary neutering notices on them and you have you be licenced to breed, the information is attached to the cat's chip ID so that would work really... licensed cats wouldn't accidentally get snipped

but like has been said... it's a danger of losing the 'moggy' altogether if too heavily regulated

the problem is it's too hard to get rescue, too easy to get elsewhere and I can't see a balance between the two being struck very easily


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

TomCat1 said:


> With regard to the whole "no more moggies/neuter and spay anthing that moves mentality" - I live in a place where 90% of ALL cats are spayed/neutered by 6m old and in total around 95-96% by done a year. We have 41 cats in our local rescue on the adoption page, with 6 who are reserved and many have been there for close to a year, with the requirement they have outside access, no other pets or children [i think its the no-other pets/children causing the slow rehome rate and of course the recession. Very few are new cats as I check this page almost weekly]I accept there are probably a few who don't make it onto the adoption page, and I am unsure as to how many kittens are in the shelter, but it seems to be consistantly low) and a small, mainly neutered feral population (on average they seem to find 2 litters, 3max feral litters a year, usually 2/3 kittens it seems, and are typically rehomed to the same people, or within a small circle - it is unusual for them to be rehomed to the general public).
> 
> I can also name off the top of my head 3 pedigree breeders (birman, bengal and british) but am unaware of any others, although I am sure a few more must exist.
> 
> ...


Then folk wanting to adopt a kitten on your island should come to the mainland to help out the crisis that is here :thumbup:

INSTEAD of letting entire moggies out of your back door in the hope she will get pregnant like YOU did.


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## TomCat1 (Dec 22, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Then folk wanting to adopt a kitten on your island should come to the mainland to help out the crisis that is here :thumbup:


Why should people where I live have to pay £300 extra (the cost of the ferry for a car and up to 2 people) to help out the mainland? That would put the price of a moggy kitten at anything between £300 and £400 or even more before you add in vaccinations (£75 here) plus spaying/neutering (£100 and £80 respectively) ... Hardly an attractive incentive just because we have a successful (imo too successful) spay and neuter policy and the mainland doesn't?! Not to add in that FELV/FIV rates are higher on the mainland and run the higher risk of buying a kitten with a problem. I can understand if you want a pedigree but for a common or garden mog (kitten or adult) its ridiculous


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## troublecat (Feb 1, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> Well no because that wouldn't prevent as many oops litters would it?
> 
> Some buy a kitten with a chip already. It doesn't mean they aren't going to be sure there are no oops kittens.
> 
> I do think a chip implanted when a cat is neurtured is a good idea though. Then any cat found wandering can be scanned to see if it's been 'done'. If not then ... into the mobile clinic and snip snip snip!


Aurelia, sorry, I meant from a legal point of view. You questioned whether it would be legal to neuter a stray and if microchipping were a legal requirement for proof of ownership then yes, it would if a cat wasn't chipped.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

TomCat1 said:


> Why should people where I live have to pay £300 extra (the cost of the ferry for a car and up to 2 people) to help out the mainland? That would put the price of a moggy kitten at anything between £300 and £400 or even more before you add in vaccinations (£75 here) plus spaying/neutering (£100 and £80 respectively) ... Hardly an attractive incentive just because we have a successful (imo too successful) spay and neuter policy and the mainland doesn't?! Not to add in that FELV/FIV rates are higher on the mainland and run the higher risk of buying a kitten with a problem. I can understand if you want a pedigree but for a common or garden mog (kitten or adult) its ridiculous


OK then why don't you approach your rescue centres and help them organise some sort of ongoing supply from UK rescue centres to those on your island?

Provided they are healthy kittens that are being transported, and they are transported from areas in the UK where the crisis is at breaking point, it can only do good.

If you get the ferry companies involved they may also give discount or even free trips for those involved in any scheme that is thought up.

Provided it's done the right way I don't see any problem with that, and it doesn't have to cost you any more as an adopter to offer one of these kittens a new home.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

TomCat1 said:


> With regard to the whole "no more moggies/neuter and spay anthing that moves mentality" - I live in a place where 90% of ALL cats are spayed/neutered by 6m old and in total around 95-96% by done a year. ).


That is the exception rather than the rule, though. In many other countries/places, there is a serious and worsening feline population explosion. Working in this situation, I think it is reasonable to want to spay/neuter "anything that moves". I know I do, including the breeders of moggies.:001_cool:


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Wondering how long it would be, if moggy breeding was standardised *shudders* before we began to see the moggy breeders trying to create a breed


Together with the recent "munchkin" thread, you have given me a great money making idea. I am going to create new breeds of moggies, using "my" very own feral colonies for studs and queens. I will make loads of money
Let's see, so far we have:

Colorado Desert Cat (TM) - due to a mutation or birthing problems the cat walks like a cowboy with spread back legs
Andalusian Cyclops (TM) - one-eyed cat with a permanent sneer
Scottish No-Ear (TM)

Litters expected soon.
GBP 300 per cat. Any takers?

:eek6::frown::frown:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

koekemakranka said:


> Together with the recent "munchkin" thread, you have given me a great money making idea. I am going to create new breeds of moggies, using "my" very own feral colonies for studs and queens. I will make loads of money
> Let's see, so far we have:
> 
> Colorado Desert Cat (TM) - due to a mutation or birthing problems the cat walks like a cowboy with spread back legs
> ...


Good to see, you have already trademarked them, you wily business person you 

Anything white would be a good money spinner, so keep that in mind too, but start stocking up on suntan cream now for them, if they'll be ferals mostly outside :scared:

Just a word to the wise, I think £300 is too cheap, people will not think they are getting anything "special" unless you hike the price up. Find out what average cat prices are for pedigrees and add another £100, also remember to charge more for queens :thumbup:


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## Vampira246 (Jan 1, 2016)

Annie2610 said:


> Im not bashing the rescues i think they do a fantastic job, i just think that the standards they try to rehome to are way to high. Yes fair enough you can argue they need to be that high to prevent them going into another bad home, but rescues shouldn't just rule out people because the cat may wonder onto a busy street.


I have the upmost respect for rescues and what they do for all the cats however I have to agree that their standards are way too high and from my personal experience are quite impossible at times to work. 
I was looking to re home a cat/kitten as a companion for myself and my disabled mom I passed every test the shelters had except untill I told them I lived in a FLAT, then every time I was turned down, I didn't have any preference on what type of cat/kitten I wanted I even said I was willing to take on a disabled cat/kitten yet still I was turned down on the only bases of living in a FLAT even when I said I wanted indoor cats/kittens and that I would harness train them so I could safely allow them outside and take them for walks in my local nature reserve and forest.

I now have two gorgeous moggies that are the most stunning calicos I've seen in a long time, both are now harness trained and love going for walks, and as far as responsible moggy breeding goes I have considered breeding my girls once they are old enough ( a year minimum) and if I do decide to I would do everything to pedigree standereds including all vet checks, all nesissary tests, flee and deworming I would research everything I need I would find a suitable stud from a respectable breeder if they agree and I would most certainly make sure and resulting kittens when to loving forever homes and should anything ever happen I would gladly take them back and raise them myself because I love my cats and have always loved cats.


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Firstly this thread is 5 years old and more importantly I don't think you are going to get much support in breeding your mogggies, I doubt you will find a "reputable breeder" with a suitable stud. Get your head out of the clouds and get them neutered, there are enough cats in rescue centres.


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

must admit the rescues wont rehome to people who are intending to keep them in and I cant understand why. having said that the above lady is right, no reputable breeder will allow their studs to be mated to a moggie, most of them are at closed stud anyway


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Above all else, rescues don't want cats they have rehomed to come back, and keeping a cat that is used to going out in can cause problems. Having said that, some rescues do rehome to indoor homes. The people who brought a black Oriental from me last year got her a companion from their local CP and both are indoor only, some cats have to be indoor because they have handicaps, and of course the pedigree rescues are almost always looking for indoor homes.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Vampira246 said:


> I have the upmost respect for rescues and what they do for all the cats however I have to agree that their standards are way too high and from my personal experience are quite impossible at times to work.
> I was looking to re home a cat/kitten as a companion for myself and my disabled mom I passed every test the shelters had except untill I told them I lived in a FLAT, then every time I was turned down, I didn't have any preference on what type of cat/kitten I wanted I even said I was willing to take on a disabled cat/kitten yet still I was turned down on the only bases of living in a FLAT even when I said I wanted indoor cats/kittens and that I would harness train them so I could safely allow them outside and take them for walks in my local nature reserve and forest.
> 
> I now have two gorgeous moggies that are the most stunning calicos I've seen in a long time, both are now harness trained and love going for walks, and as far as responsible moggy breeding goes I have considered breeding my girls once they are old enough ( a year minimum) and if I do decide to I would do everything to pedigree standereds including all vet checks, all nesissary tests, flee and deworming I would research everything I need I would find a suitable stud from a respectable breeder if they agree and I would most certainly make sure and resulting kittens when to loving forever homes and should anything ever happen I would gladly take them back and raise them myself because I love my cats and have always loved cats.


Please, oh please do not breed these cats. You would risk their lives to create more kittens with not enough homes for them to begin with. Of course your cats are special but so are millions of other cats. Your cats do not need to reproduce.

Just get them spayed NOW (every heat cycle puts them at greater risk for disease, now and later in life) and allow them to be beloved family members.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Vampira246 said:


> I have the upmost respect for rescues and what they do for all the cats however I have to agree that their standards are way too high and from my personal experience are quite impossible at times to work.
> I was looking to re home a cat/kitten as a companion for myself and my disabled mom I passed every test the shelters had except untill I told them I lived in a FLAT, then every time I was turned down, I didn't have any preference on what type of cat/kitten I wanted I even said I was willing to take on a disabled cat/kitten yet still I was turned down on the only bases of living in a FLAT even when I said I wanted indoor cats/kittens and that I would harness train them so I could safely allow them outside and take them for walks in my local nature reserve and forest.
> 
> I now have two gorgeous moggies that are the most stunning calicos I've seen in a long time, both are now harness trained and love going for walks, and as far as responsible moggy breeding goes I have considered breeding my girls once they are old enough ( a year minimum) and if I do decide to I would do everything to pedigree standereds including all vet checks, all nesissary tests, flee and deworming I would research everything I need I would find a suitable stud from a respectable breeder if they agree and I would most certainly make sure and resulting kittens when to loving forever homes and should anything ever happen I would gladly take them back and raise them myself because I love my cats and have always loved cats.


Why on earth would you drag up a thread that's 5+ years old?

Seriously - why not start a new one so that you can get the latest info and facts?  Sorry but I just don't get it!

Aside from that - please do not deliberately breed your moggies - there are 1000s of unwanted animals in rescue (and I did read your posts)

What health tests are you going to have done - every single one available?

As you don't know what may be in the parentage of your moggies, that's what you'd need to do to try to make sure there were no genetic diseases and, even then, there's no guarantee. That would cost a serious amount of money!

Don't do it ... it's selfish in the extreme (sorry but there is absolutely no reason to do this)


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Yeah, don't do it. Love them for what they are!


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Very old thread....

Anyway, I don't believe in moggy breeding, not because there are already a lot of moggies overpopulating shelters and roaming as ferals and strays but simply because I honestly believe it would have absolutely no impact whatsoever.

Look at it this way you become a registered breeder for moggies, get a licence, etc, (As others have suggested) and pay the money looking after these cats to breed and go through pregnancies, looking after the litters, like a pedigree breeder, so you would have to charge a lot more to even break even. Because I simply don't believe anybody would spend hundreds to breed moggies and charge the £50 plus with what a lot go through at the moment.

And to explain what I mean a little bit more is that the the sad thing is people will pay the £50 for a cat/kitten than a moggy going for a few hundred. Even if it does come health tested and comes well looked after like a reputable breeder would with pedigree. There will be few people who would pay so much for a moggy, most will go for apedigree. Because truth be told I know I would never pay hundreds for a moggy (or a pedigree come to think about it, as mcuh as I would love having a Siamese. 

Though if there was such a licence and a law that came in to ban all moggy breeding, how could such a thing be policed? If it could, would it stop those breeding cats recklessly time and time again and using them to line their own greasy pockets? I doubt these people would be stopped. It's awful but true. And what about those who genuinely make a big mistake. This makes me think of spaying by law in that case but again how could such a thing be policed. Would you have to registered as a pet owner but how to get around those who buy from back yard breeders who are not on such a register.

Made me think of asking a few questions to cat forums actually so I might post a separate thread on the issue.

But to @Vampira246, please please don't breed your moggies. If you have an interest in breeding please go down the right route.


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