# Hills Science Plan...good?bad?



## elliej (Feb 12, 2010)

Hi all

I have been going through all the posts regarding dog food and I still don't know what to try! 

I have 2 labs, both are 8 months old (brothers). So far we have kept them on the same food which the breeder had them on (Hills Science Plan Puppy large breed). Throughout the year we have been getting offers on it so it hasn't been bank breaking. However the offers are drying up and it is now getting quite expensive, I do want to give them the best they can have but at the same time we need to eat as well They both have 170g each 3 times a day.

I am basically wondering if Hills is really worth it? I have seen a few reviews saying it is over priced rubbish. I think I am feeding the correct amount, they look just right, they arent skinny and bony and they arent podgy. Has anyone switched from Hills to a cheaper food? I have asked in pets at home before similar questions, they made me feel quite guilty for wanting to change!!

Thanks for taking time to read my ramblings!

Ellie


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

IMO its bad food, try orijen, Arden grange, nature diet


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## Snoop (Jan 24, 2010)

I have just changed from Hills to Wainwrights dry food - on offer at pets at home, £30 for 15kg :thumbsup:

He gobbles it up too so a good choice I think


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

From personal experience with both my dog and cats (plus a number of people i know with their dogs who were on it), science plan is bad and completely overpriced for what is essentially a pretty rubbish food!

For the price you pay for the hills, i would look at Orijen or Applaws. I also liked Arden Grange as mentioned above.

If you want something a little cheaper, then Wainwrights is a pretty good and reasonably priced food as mentioned above. Easy to get hold of if you shop at Pets at Home already - they often have offers on it and it is well priced even without.

Other brands to look at might be Skinners or CSJ or similar - many people recommend these as good foods too that are reasonably priced.


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

My Lab was on Hills when he first arrived with us and changing his food was one of the first things I did. In my opinion Hills definitely falls into the bad food, best avoided category! 

Bingley did very well on James Wellbeloved, but hes now on Orijen and loving it. If I had to change again itd very likely be to Arden Grange which, if you scout around on-line, youll often find at a very good price.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

The vet prescribed this for Fizz both the meat and the dried and aside it being over 3 quid for a medium size sack Fizz hated it and it didn't do the job in the long run anyway
Clare xx


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

bad bad bad :nonod:


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I wish I knew about this forum ages ago it'd have saved so many problems in the past xx


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## tafwoc (Nov 12, 2009)

I went for Arden grange after trying loads of different foods, iams, bakers, wag...it goes on but i can't remember the rest, but AG was the best for me. I don't like hills either, :nonod:


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

No Hills for me, I'm afraid. Main ingredient is maize and lots of additives in there such as BHA and artificial stool hardeners.

Prefer Orijen, Naturediet, Arden Grange or JWB (if needing food from PAH).


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

james1 said:


> bad bad bad :nonod:


I was just going to mention to the op to wait until you come on i remember you saying and going into some detail about hills a while ago. Hi!


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## elliej (Feb 12, 2010)

Thank you so much for replying so quickly!! I am so shocked at how 'good' they make it out to be by sticking a whopping great price tag on it! I am so glad I came across this forum, it is so good!

Artificial stool hardener?! That hasn't worked! Lol. Well at least not so well on one of them 

I shall give the Arden Grange a go, sounds rather good. I've found a 15kg bag for £36 at swellpets.co.uk

Thank you all so much again!


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> Hi!


Hi back!


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

james1 said:


> bad bad bad :nonod:


and again Bad


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

elliej said:


> I shall give the Arden Grange a go, sounds rather good. I've found a 15kg bag for £36 at swellpets.co.uk


Don't forget to change over to AG slowly, say over a couple of weeks. That way you're more likely to avoid upset tums and _things_!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

look into whites premium


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

suewhite said:


> and again Bad


hahaa, with a terrible cherry on top! :crying:


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## elliej (Feb 12, 2010)

Oh yes, we don't want upset tums!! Yukky! 

Thank you all again


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi, Like you I have been dredging the site for tips on "what feed" and learned that I am paying for the privelage of cereal. I need to save a few pennies and the 2 I have whittled it down to are Skinners Field and Trial Salmon and Rice (the Duck and Rice is equally as good but my dog didnt like the sample) and Vitalin Adult Maintenance (still waiting for that sample to arrive.

May be another couple you could have a look at.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I think if you want a reasonably priced kibble any of the 3 mentioned in Mum2Heidi's post would be good.  They really match the more expensive brands, only the high premium kibbles have an advantage to them in paying more I think  ie Orijen/Applaws


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## samsgr (Dec 4, 2009)

Reading this with concern as my vet has prescribed this for my dog (diagnosed with IBD severe) - he was happily on naturediet rabbit one, and loved it! It seemed to be working for him.

Also started steroids today to help with ibd - short term. 

Why oh why do they do this? I feel that I have to do as they say as we have gone through endoscopy for nothing.

Will see how he is...


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I saw changes in my spaniel within a few weeks but continued with it for about 5 weeks and then thought - nope, change it.
Keep a good eye on him, my boys eyes literally went grey, he rarely opened them, he would get out of his crate only to wee and then go back in it, was very lethargic, and his coat dried to powder where you could stroke him and a cloud would appear. It did nothing for him at all - pooping loads and probably going 5 times a day. 
If your boy was well on ND then keep him to this id say, though with irritable bowels how do you know he was happy on it? Firm stools..??

A good tests of your nutritionists knowledge would be to ask them another brand of kibble besides Science plan, they should be able to give you a list off the top of their heads if they have any slight interest in foods, ours could only recommend JWB, which is what he was taken off to go on SP. I ended in taking him off it - looking at as many foods I could and picking out what I thought would bring him back to health - luckily I chose right and his health improved effortlessly.


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## samsgr (Dec 4, 2009)

hi, yes when on naturediet stools firm and less of them, loved it and would have eaten it all day - took me a while to find the 'right'food for him.
vet has said that it doesnt need to be long term and may be able to go back to nd. 

btw, he is on hills z/d wet version as he hates dry.

will watch him closely.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

ours were either i/d or r/d or j/d?? so many varieties, and i didnt care to be honest so long as he was off it lol


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

I discovered a very good local independent pet feeds store which had a great range of foods in today, and as you do, I had a good look round. They had all the usuals and were happy to order stuff for you etc.

Well to get to the point, I was looking at the Burns stand and they had some booklets and I picked up one. It was different to the books that Burns send you when you get the samples, its a blue product guide, if anyone has seen one. I was interested to find in it a table which gives Burns alternatives to prescription diets. It lists the Hills diets eg r/d, w/d etc or Royal Canin eg Urinary, Hepatic and gives the Burns alternative, but also has another couple of columns which describe the key nutritional characteristics of the Burns diet which is equivalent to the other two, and some other notes. Im going to hang on to this as I thought it would be very useful if the vet ever gave Hedley a prescription diet, so I would know the alternatives. If you are on Hills or Royal Canin prescription diets, it might be an idea to go into a Burns stockist and pick one of these up. It also goes through all the Burns products obviously and gives their ingredients, analysis and feeding guide. A very useful document.

Although Heddles isnt on Burns, it is something I am bearing in mind at the moment, as I like the customer support and quality of the information they give you. I didnt buy Burns in the first place because I noticed it had a lot of cereal in it and it was commented on in here. Im watching with interest for their new Penland Farm stuff coming out, it wasnt in the store yet, but I picked up a small bag of mini bites and a couple of cans of their lamb stuff just to try. I dont want to take Hedley off Fish4dogs as it suits his coat and he likes it, but Im really interested to know if Burns does have a calming effect as he has been a bit hyper and yappy recently. I think to be honest its just his age!


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

their mini bites are spectacular for calming dogs down  id recommend them to anyone with a hyper pup  we only used them up to 6 mths of age though..


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## samsgr (Dec 4, 2009)

good info Hedley - i wonder if they do any wet food as my boy doesnt seemt o tolerate dry?


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

samsgr said:


> good info Hedley - i wonder if they do any wet food as my boy doesnt seemt o tolerate dry?


Penlan Farm Range This is the new stuff and I didnt see it in the shops.

and I got two tins of Burns Lamb and Vegetable which I havent tried yet and a sachet of fish, so yes, they do wet food already, but there is a new range coming.

This is the stuff:

http://www.mutleyandmog.co.uk/dog/dog-food/cans-pouches/burns-tinned-food/


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## chestersmum (Sep 18, 2009)

How does the burns wet food compare go natures diet? Which is better?


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

I cant answer that. The ingredients for Burns Lamb, Rice and Vegetables are:

Lamb 58%, Rice 10%, Carrots 4% Peas 2% (thats all it says ... I presume the rest must be water.

Analysis: Protein 10% Fat 5.4% Moisture 75% Fibre 1% Ash 1.4%

Burns Cod & Arctic Char Ingredients
Cod min 45%, Arctic Char min 45%, Rice, Kelp and Carrageen

Analysis Protein 10.2%, Oil 8.4%, Ash 2.4% Fibre 1.6% Moisture 70.6%

If anyone wants to post nature diet then you can compare.

Hedley had a tablespoon of the Burns on the top of his usual kibble and enjoyed it, but you know what theyre like, in 3 days he will probably hate it. I think the tin was about 1.35 for 410g.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

alysonandhedley said:


> Penlan Farm Range This is the new stuff and I didnt see it in the shops.
> 
> and I got two tins of Burns Lamb and Vegetable which I havent tried yet and a sachet of fish, so yes, they do wet food already, but there is a new range coming.
> 
> ...


Just has a look at this and it's very low protein isn't it. 5.0%.

Feeding guide states what's needed when fed on its own, or mixed with dry. If fed alone my dogs would need 530-800g each, and if mixed with dry food, they'd need 130-200g mixed with 130-150g of the complete dry food.

Unless this new stuff is extremely cheap, it'll work out very expensive to feed.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Lyceum said:


> Just has a look at this and it's very low protein isn't it. 5.0%.
> 
> Feeding guide states what's needed when fed on its own, or mixed with dry. If fed alone my dogs would need 530-800g each, and if mixed with dry food, they'd need 130-200g mixed with 130-150g of the complete dry food.
> 
> Unless this new stuff is extremely cheap, it'll work out very expensive to feed.


Where does it say 5% protein? I hadnt noticed that.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

On the product info pages

Product - Lamb, Brown Rice and Vegetables

Product - Chicken, Brown Rice and Vegetables

Egg, Brown rice and Vegetables

The egg and rice has the highest protein level at 5.70%


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## Road_Hog (Dec 8, 2008)

Lyceum said:


> Just has a look at this and it's very low protein isn't it. 5.0%.


Way too low for a dog, wouldn't touch 5% protein with a barge pole. Should be 10%+


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

with the wet feeds the moisture content has to be taken into account, i cant remember the calculation to get the true protein amount without water but its un likely to be 10%, the ingredients are 70% lamb 10% rice 10% veg 10% othe stuff (cant remember them tbh). so the protein will be higher - you just have to look at the other inredients to realise this


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Road_Hog said:


> Way too low for a dog, wouldn't touch 5% protein with a barge pole. Should be 10%+


Read the pet food choice website:
http://www.pet-food-choice.co.uk/wet_or_dry_pet_food.htm

QUOTE

The complication of moisture content!

It can be difficult to compare foods because of the moisture content (i.e. dry diets average 10% water, but moist foods can have 80% water content) and the fact that labels list levels as an 'as fed' rather than 'dry matter' basis which would enable customers to directly compare the different foods.

If you want to convert 'as fed' to 'dry matter' a simple conversion is necessary. Are you ready?

*

If a dry food is 10% moisture then it is 90% dry matter (Still with me?)
*

If the declared protein content is 20%, then the maths is 20 x (100/90) which gives us the protein on a dry matter basis of 22%.
*

Compare this to a canned or pouch food which declares a protein content of 5%. This food contains 80% moisture (or only 20% dry matter) so the maths is 5 x (100/20) or 25% protein on a dry matter basis.

You'll find this with the majority of canned foods, the actual protein content is higher than that of dry complete foods when compared on a dry matter basis. You can do the same for fat, fiber, etc.


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

Yes that's right. Naturediet, for example, states around 10% protein on the packaging but once you remove the moisture and convert it to a dry matter basis, you are actually looking at a protein convent of around 40-44% (similar level to Orijen).


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