# How to break a dog's obsession with other dogs?



## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

Any ideas, anyone? Rocky is a nightmare when he spots other dogs. Obviously, we haven't taken him off the lead yet because of this, but we've had him for about a month now and it doesn't seem to be improving.

When we're walking in a quiet place, we walk him on the Flexi. He's fine then, will walk at heel as if he were off lead (with my OH following behind holding the Flexi) and will recall every time. We haven't really tested his recall at greater distances yet, as if he spots another dog, he's off, and it's too difficult to hold the long line. The point is, he's great in every aspect, apart from when he sees another dog.

What does he do when he sees them? When he sees them at a distance, his ears will go up, and he'll become alert. If he's allowed close enough to sniff them, he's usually ok. Almost invariably, if he's restrained (i.e. other owner walks past without stopping, or around) he'll lunge to the end of the lead and bark, and grumble. It usually ends up with him on his hind legs and whoever's holding him planting their feet and waiting until he's finished, or trying to drag him away. This has sometimes happened when he's been allowed to greet them, too, but rarely.

At training, he'll sit at the edge of the class with us quite happily, and isn't obsessed with dogs in the same way, for some reason. He's had a bark at a couple, but only after they've growled at him first.

We've tried making him sit and stay with treats, and breaking his concentration with treats, too. He barely glances around. From tomorrow, we'll try a squeaky toy and a treat, perhaps that will work.

We're not sure why he does it - we think it might be frustration that he can't go over to them and play, as he's fine with Maisy and loved playing with other dogs when he was at the Dogs Trust. We had no hint from them that he was aggressive, and personally, I don't think he is.

However, until we've sorted this, we can't risk letting him off lead, and it's difficult for one of us to walk both dogs together, as we have to have two hands on him if he does get excited, so none free for a whistle or another lead for Maisy. Whether he wants to go for the dog or jump on them, we're not happy with that. 

Any advice would be much appreciated.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

It is one of the hardest things to overcome

Try reading this sticky http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...s-who-lack-attention-obsessed-other-dogs.html

But also accept that some dogs just can't overcome this. Many dogs get better with age though x


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## Chris Swansea (Jul 29, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> It is one of the hardest things to overcome
> 
> Try reading this sticky http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...s-who-lack-attention-obsessed-other-dogs.html
> 
> But also accept that some dogs just can't overcome this. Many dogs get better with age though x


Thanks for the link, but it doesnt really help... It says that it can be done, and that its hard... But not HOW. Or any tips, hints or techniques.

Are there any?


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2012)

Two books that are really helpful for this sort of thing:
"Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons and "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt

I'd also look in to some of Susan Garrett's distraction training blogs and her Crate Games DVD.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Megan345 said:


> Any ideas, anyone? Rocky is a nightmare when he spots other dogs. Obviously, we haven't taken him off the lead yet because of this, but we've had him for about a month now and it doesn't seem to be improving.
> 
> When we're walking in a quiet place, we walk him on the Flexi. He's fine then, will walk at heel as if he were off lead (with my OH following behind holding the Flexi) and will recall every time. We haven't really tested his recall at greater distances yet, as if he spots another dog, he's off, and it's too difficult to hold the long line. The point is, he's great in every aspect, apart from when he sees another dog.
> 
> ...


You can shrug your shoulders and believe that things will never change and resign yourself (and your dog) to a life of misery, or you could believe, as I do, that you can train your dog to be less interested in other dogs.

However this takes time and a big commitment from you. If you have only had this dog one month, it is too soon to have built a very strong bond with you to override past history. This will take several months.

Also, if you continue to allow your dog to meet other dogs, things will not improve.

I would strongly suggest that you read Out and About with your Dog by Sue Sternberg regarding this.

I would also look at other sources of information on a) training a recall and b) building a relationship.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Why can&#8217;t I get a reliable recall?

&#8216;Come&#8217; is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.
Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into&#8230;

At some point in time, usually from around 6 &#8211; 10 months, depending on the individual, &#8220;Velcro&#8221; dog will morph into &#8220;Bog off&#8221; dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc. 

How and when do I start with a puppy?

My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning. 

Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future. 

By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:
&#8226;	Come from across the room. 
&#8226;	Come from out of sight 
&#8226;	Come no matter who calls
&#8226;	Come even if you are busy doing something else
&#8226;	Come even if you are asleep. 
&#8226;	Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
&#8226;	Come even if you are eating 

Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

To train this, or any other behaviour:

1.	Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2.	Provide sufficient reward

Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

&#8226;	Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
&#8226;	Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
&#8226;	If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
&#8226;	Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
&#8226;	Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the &#8220;value&#8221; of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dog&#8217;s life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

What about an older or rescue dog?

Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly. 

Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success. 

Divide the day&#8217;s food ration up into small bags (between10 &#8211; 30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying &#8220;too bad&#8221; and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

Hunger is very motivating! 

For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;

How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?

Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your &#8220;helper&#8221; simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because it&#8217;s getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dog&#8217;s name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the 
early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.

HTH


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Course

How to Change Predatory Chase Behaviour in Dogs with David Ryan

When: Sunday 12th May 2013

Where: Otterbourne Village Hall, Otterbourne, Winchester SO21 2ET

Details: 10am- 4pm registration from 9.30am. £35 per person, lunch included

Throwing a ball for a game of chase is an enjoyable and rewarding experience for many owners and their dogs. For other owners canine chase behaviour turns into a nightmare when their dog chases cyclists, cars or sheep. When their dogs choose what to chase it can compromise owners financially, cause the target severe injury or even death, and threaten the life of the dog. This seminar looks at the reasons for the problem, the more effective solutions and how to control the behaviour.

David Ryan followed 26 years as a police dog handler and Home Office accredited training instructor with a postgraduate Diploma in Companion Animal Behaviour Counselling, with distinction, from Southampton University, an internationally recognised centre of excellence for animal behaviour studies. In 2008 he was certificated as a Clinical Animal Behaviourist by the prestigious Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour.

He was chair of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors from 2009 to March 2012 and currently works as a companion animal behaviour consultant, being an independently vetted member of the UK Register of Expert Witnesses since 2008.

David has appeared in the internationally scheduled television series 'Crimefighters' focusing on his remarkable and fascinating work with police dogs, and as a guest on the BBC 4 programme "It's only a theory", discussing how dogs have evolved to bark. His dog behaviour articles have appeared in publications as diverse as the Daily Telegraph, Woman's Own, Your Dog and Veterinary Times.

He has been invited at various times to lecture to the Companion Animal Behaviour Therapy Study Group, BSc Animal Behaviour Students at Bishop Burton College and Myerscough College, and Pet Rescue/rehoming Centres, including Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, Merseyside Dogs Trust and Wood Green Animal Shelter. He is currently a guest lecturer on Newcastle University's MSc in Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare.

David's unique blend of practical experience and theoretical knowledge of canine behaviour fuel his particular interest in inherited predatory motor patterns and the lengths to which pets will go to find a way to express them, usually despite their owners' best efforts

Events - Positive Training for Canines

Books

Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
by David Ryan

Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts 
By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

Total Recall
By Pippa Mattinson

Teach your Dog to Come When Called
By Erica Peachey

DVDs

Really Reliable Recall 
by Leslie Nelson

Training the Recall
By Michael Ellis

Your clever dog: Getting your dog to come when called 
by Sarah Whitehead

Does your dog whizz back to you as soon as you call his name?
Can you call him to you even when there are other dogs or distractions? Teaching your dog to come to you when you call is the cornerstone of training and the gateway to allowing him more freedom in the park.
If your dog has selective deafness, ignores you in the garden or the park, or would rather play with other dogs than come when you call, this specially designed training session is for you.
Ideal for starting out with puppies or rehomed dogs, and also for dogs that ignore you or are slow to come when called, despite previous training. 
Including:
• How to know what's rewarding for your dog and what's not
• Five times when you shouldn't call your dog!
• Using your voice to call versus using a whistle
• What to do if you call and your dog doesn't come to you
The pack contains: A clicker, long line (worth £10), training manual, instructional DVD: 55 mins approx running time including Bonus trick, Bonus Training Session, Intro to Clicker Training, Q & A with Sarah

Dogtrain.co.uk

Website articles:

http://www.apdt.co.uk/documents/RECALL.pdf

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/reliable_recall.pdf

Deposits into the Perfect Recall Account

List of Reinforcers

Distractions For Your Recall

Recall Collapse | Susan Garrett&#039;s Dog Training Blog

How to Create a Motivating Toy

http://www.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_files/factsheets/Training a whistle recall.pdf

Teaching Come « Ahimsa Dog Blog

How do I stop my dog chasing?

http://www.pawsitivelydogs.co.uk/recall.pdf

Train a

Teaching Your Dog to "Come When Called" | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/b...squirrel-teaching-a-reliable-come-when-called


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Chris Swansea said:


> Thanks for the link, but it doesnt really help... It says that it can be done, and that its hard... But not HOW. Or any tips, hints or techniques.
> 
> Are there any?


Extracts from the sticky ....

"I've had another bit of a breakthrough this afternoon - we met a bloke on our walk who had a frisbee and Boo went MAD for it. I am kicking myself for not thinking of it earlier because the thing she loves to chase above all other things is birds - well the closest thing to a bird, toy-wise is a frisbee because they are in the air for much longer than a ball.
She was ignoring other dogs completely in favour of the frisbee."

"In the last 2 months it suddenly clicked... WE are now the most important things in his life He ignores other dogs now, they are just 'in the way' cos mum is going to throw his ball. He'll walk to heel past anything, no lead, just cos I'm holding the ball."

"i second the DRAG-line suggestion - he cannot be allowed to rehearse ignoring a cue to recall, so thats No. 1.
get him on a drag, call ONCE while there are no dogs about, if he comes to U, reward heavily - activity may be even
better than a treat, a short exciting tug-game might really thrill him.
after his successful return on cue, Turn Him Loose after that reward...
he needs to learn that COME does not always = put back on leash + stuck with Slow-Poke. this is boring...

if U call him once + he does Not come to U... go and get him.
do not make it angry, don;t stomp + don;t look ugly; be casual, just walk up on him, STEP on the long-line, then pick it up,
and do NOT let him run free again; thats the punishment - i don;t come when called?
i can only run on the long-line... he will quickly learn this is a consequence, and its avoidable -
if he DOES come when called, he goes free again.

the only exception to Turn him loose again is if theres actually an on-leash dog - in which case, keep his time
on-leash as happily engaged with U as possible, so he forgets he is stuck with U and another *dog* is nearby, wah-ha!...
keep him so busy + interested he forgets about the un-met dog over there -
if possible, ADD more distance between the 2 of U + that un-explored dog.
(jogging away together while U wiggle a tug-toy enticingly, etc...)

another good option:
call him before he sees another Off-leash Dog...
and when he comes REWARD him handsomely, then release him to play with the off-leash dog.
again, he is being rewarded twice -
* a treat, tug-game, praise, etc
* released to meet the off-leash dog

practice, practice, practice recall - and it must ALWAYS be rewarded.
that means *never call the dog for something he does not want* -- like a bath, nail-trim, vet-trip...
for anything the dog does not like, Go And Get Him - no exceptions.
thats why its so important that recall on walks be frequently *released* once he has been rewarded -
he gets 2 rewards, one for coming to U when called, and the 2nd simply being allowed to run free again.

for extensive proofing, built right into training-lessons, see
Levels.html"

If you read through it you will find lots of information


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## beris (Aug 30, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> You can shrug your shoulders and believe that things will never change and resign yourself (and your dog) to a life of misery, or you could believe, as I do, that you can train your dog to be less interested in other dogs.
> 
> However this takes time and a big commitment from you. If you have only had this dog one month, it is too soon to have built a very strong bond with you to override past history. This will take several months.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. One month is no time at all to get a bond with a dog.

Rescue dogs come with baggage and if you don't know the full background you will have to start training and socialising from scratch.

It took me 12 months to what I consider is a bond with my rescue dog, and due to her traumatic background her training has to be ongoing to help overcome her past experiences. She was approx 3yrs old when I rescued her 7 years ago.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2012)

I second the Sue Sternberg book!!!!!

Also when you see another dog have you tried teaching him a watch me?? 

Or everytime he does something OTHER than stare/lunge at the dog such as sniff the ground click and treat?? 

I have a dog that finds it extremely hard to ignore other dogs and the above has helped.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Megan345 said:


> We've tried making him sit and stay with treats, and breaking his concentration with treats, too. He barely glances around. From tomorrow, we'll try a squeaky toy and a treat, perhaps that will work.


I have one that does acts like yours, what we have been advised to do when possible (not that its really working yet  although we are getting more focus) is exactly what you are doing.

Watch like a hawk for the first sign of him ramping up, those ears pricking, if necessary move him back and treat, throw the treat on the ground in the opposite direction from the trigger if possible, making them search for the treat not only makes them relax and gives another thing to do it also mimics an appeasement signal to the other dogs. Use a marker word like yes or a clicker (not so easy in the situation) as you regain focus and treat.

When this is not possible, remove your dog from the situation again you have to get in there before the behaviour escalates. I about turn and go back the way I have come, duck down an alley, move off out of sight whatever it takes, as soon as the dog is quiet for more than a few seconds, mark and treat.

At first I thought all this was pointless and I can't do these things, I just need to go for a quiet walk with my dog. I am getting better and so is she although I am not sure anyone else would notice it as her trigger distance is a loooong way and she really goes for it. However I am noticing she is automatically looking to me for the reward now and will sit and wait as long as I keep her far enough away that she is under threshold. It is also taking less time for her to come down from her episodes as well.

As well as this I try to walk as much as possible away from other dogs, I know sometimes it can't be helped and then the first 2 things come into play. However I would have thought that is going to be pretty hard to manage if you are walking two dogs.

I have also had a couple of sessions so far with a behaviorist were we work on these things in a controlled environment.

I got a lot from some books, Scaredy Dog, and Fiesty Fido being two that immediately spring to mind. All they do is go through the reasons and techniques to handle these things but each time you read or are taught these things they make a bit more sense and hopefully start to become second nature.

Like you we had no idea she had issues, we knew her and knew she played quite happily if boisterously with other dogs. To begin with she was excitable but fine, then fine if she could greet them (but she liked jumping on their heads ) so we started to restrict that and the behaviour got worse and worse and sometimes a greeting is just not appropriate. Like you say it was like a 'oy you come over here and say hello' and I didn't think it was aggressive, then she grabbed hold of another terrier (no harm done) and I freaked completely from then on, however I have been observing her and I still don't think she is aggressive, just completely over excited at this brand new world she is living in now, however she is liable to over react and could do some harm in that state so I am muzzle training her, for my peace of mind. I was at my wits end at one point. She is also fine with dogs she knows, she recognises them and doesn't bark and if she is allowed to get near them she is actually uninterested.

So its a puzzle , whats his history? Ginge was brought up on a farm and so has no experience of anything else.

Hope me waffling on like that might give you something that helps.

Oh and like yours she is a diamond in other ways, a terrier diamond though so easier to handle physically, not necessarily mentally though. Good luck.


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## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

I've had this with Meg, she's been a nightmare at times, but, is getting better and this is what *I* did [rightly or wrongly?]

When we are with dogs we know I let her go and have her play, I call her back and treat her for coming, then let her go again to play, this way she isn't 'caught' each time.
I've been doing this now for a few weeks and I can now get her to come quite quickly.
I also walk away from the other dogs and call her,...she now follows me and not them, but I treat every time she comes when called, [Meg is very food orientated]

She has perfect re-call if we're alone, but not when she spots another dog before me - I need to have eyes in the back of my head! 

With Meg tho, there is never any sign of aggression, she just loves to be with other dogs.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> It is one of the hardest things to overcome
> 
> Try reading this sticky http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...s-who-lack-attention-obsessed-other-dogs.html
> 
> But also accept that some dogs just can't overcome this. Many dogs get better with age though x





ouesi said:


> Two books that are really helpful for this sort of thing:
> "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons and "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt
> 
> I'd also look in to some of Susan Garrett's distraction training blogs and her Crate Games DVD.


Thank you. I've read through the sticky. Unfortunately, he really couldn't care less about toys, but he does love food - I think we need to find something that's smelly and tasty and keep it specifically for when other dogs are around. It's weird, usually he'll do anything for a promise of food, but as soon as he's seen another dog, that's it. I'm hopeful we'll figure it out though, he doesn't chase anything, and any distraction apart from a dog makes no difference to his recall. He also recalls fine when Maisy is there, he just follows her!

I'll also look into the sources you mentioned, ouesi, thank you


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

LurcherOwner said:


> I second the Sue Sternberg book!!!!!
> 
> Also when you see another dog have you tried teaching him a watch me??
> 
> ...


Teaching a watch me in the house sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately, he never looks away once he's focused! Maybe that'll help 



GingerRogers said:


> I have one that does acts like yours, what we have been advised to do when possible (not that its really working yet  although we are getting more focus) is exactly what you are doing.
> 
> Watch like a hawk for the first sign of him ramping up, those ears pricking, if necessary move him back and treat, throw the treat on the ground in the opposite direction from the trigger if possible, making them search for the treat not only makes them relax and gives another thing to do it also mimics an appeasement signal to the other dogs. Use a marker word like yes or a clicker (not so easy in the situation) as you regain focus and treat.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this, gives me hope! We'll try the turning around and walking away. We try to walk him in quiet places or at quiet times, but unless you own acres of land, it's impossible to guarantee you won't meet another dog at some point!

We really have no idea what his background is. We picked him up from the Dogs Trust at about ten months, he'd been there for six weeks. His owners brought him in as an 'emergency' case and left him there immediately, as they were apparently being evicted. Could be true, I guess, I just fail to see how either a) you wouldn't know with at least a few days notice you were definitely being evicted, or b) when you first got a dog (must have been a maximum of 6 and a half months of owning him, assuming you got him at eight weeks) you didn't have a clue you might be kicked out within the next six months. He hadn't been vaccinated or neutered, either, and had a benign lump that needed removing. So, to be honest, that, coupled with the fact they left him at the rescue with absolutely no information about him, leads me to believe he might not have been brought up in the best way. We're just starting from scratch with everything 



Gertrude said:


> I've had this with Meg, she's been a nightmare at times, but, is getting better and this is what *I* did [rightly or wrongly?]
> 
> When we are with dogs we know I let her go and have her play, I call her back and treat her for coming, then let her go again to play, this way she isn't 'caught' each time.
> I've been doing this now for a few weeks and I can now get her to come quite quickly.
> ...


That sounds great, I'm glad you're getting on well!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I find it helps to allow the dog playtime with other dogs so it isn`t such a Forbidden Pleasure. 
Dogs do need to interact with ther own species. 
Is there no-one with nice dogs who would let them get to know yours and play off lead?


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> if U call him once + he does Not come to U... go and get him.
> do not make it angry, don;t stomp + don;t look ugly; be casual, just walk up on him, STEP on the long-line, then pick it up,
> and do NOT let him run free again; thats the punishment - i don;t come when called?
> i can only run on the long-line... he will quickly learn this is a consequence, and its avoidable -
> if he DOES come when called, he goes free again.


I think this is an important one. You can't have him thinking "I won't come this time I'll get the treat next time"... and Dief gets a lot of treats.. I'm such a pushover. If I understand correctly this is -R punishment ? The punishment is loss of freedom. I just stand with him holding his harness. No words, no eye contact, no movement. 60 seconds then release. It's rare to have two consecutives.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Megan345 said:


> Teaching a watch me in the house sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately, he never looks away once he's focused! Maybe that'll help
> 
> Thanks for this, gives me hope! We'll try the turning around and walking away. We try to walk him in quiet places or at quiet times, *but unless you own acres of land, it's impossible to guarantee you won't meet another dog at some point! *
> 
> ...


It is impossible thats true but eventually you will become an expert at finding places, I am lucky in that my OH work on a country estate, I can walk there at the moment, 99% guaranteed no dogs, if there are its the gamekeepers and he knows Ginge and she knows his dogs. Oh and we are also upping the ante on the watch me or 'wass iss' training as well, another thing I thought was pointless and would never work I just wasn't putting enough effort in. Good luck, it may take an awfully long time but I am a believer (I have to be ) that most dogs can be turned around

And gah at the rescue excuse, our old boy was given up because 'they lived on an estate in the centre of town and he liked to chase the neighbours cats' yeah right thats why he cowered at the sight of the hoover nozzle or a roll of wrapping paper, completely submitted from fear when muzzled, and had a strange need to attack small girls with big hair and men with walking sticks for a little while. He had been treated really well by his previous owners family hadn't he :nonod:


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Hi!

This is or rather was  my dog- and i believe many under socialised rescues suffer from it.

Same as yours he was ok in class, pain in the arse on a walk.

Now we defo started fairly intense training (or engaging i prefer) with games, watch me's leave stay wait etc... but wound these activities in with a motivational activity on the walk- which was when the whole alert at a dog thing was worse- may i add, my dog is not and was not aggressive- however like you i never gave him the opportunity to show me, rather i tried to manage his behaviour. he still *can* get a bit ill mannered and rowdy in play, but can be brought down and socialises beautifully with all shapes and sizes.


Now the best advice i can give is to immediately step up your interaction with him- Bruno i think had had multiple homes or no one that gave a sh*t about him before he needed up in shelter so whilst he was a very sweet boy I do think it took a while to bond- don't get me wrong he very much wanted to 'work' for us with training (he'd do stuff without any treats just praise) but still, I did sometimes get the vibe that he wasn't quite 'ours' and us 'his' for quite sometime...

I digress- whatever suits you at class- heel, watch me, everything- work super hard and double your efforts on a walk- find what really gets his attention and use it...and watch him like a hawk for signs he's going through inappropriate behaviours, then learn to catch them at the very first sign or even better before it.

Believe me i've had some dark days, don't give up and don't worry too much- just try your best to maintain focus and not get frustrated.

Step it up to the highest treat you can for your dog until he's more engaged in working for you if not already- i'll probably get slated but i don't care- my dog is extremely fit so he gets ridiculous distraction treats like potato scone pieces or bread roll (cause he loves them and they are well easier to cart around than chicken!) but he ONLY gets these when he heels past another dog. Trust me after a year he now can heel past a reactive dog (NEVER would have happened before) without even paying them the slightest heed.

Bribery and corruption- sometimes i just use toys, or if I feel brave and the other dog isn't hyper I can just use my voice.

His recall from other dogs is pretty good now although he still takes a HUGE interest in playing- this was very much helped by recall exercises with me, but also walking him off lead with a bunch of other dog walkers- he seemed much more confident/ appropriate and less interested (still interested in a 'hello sniff way') in strange dogs but this was vastly helped by the experienced owners where i stay getting to know us and letting me tag along. Well worth it, even if you're not a 'people person' (dunno if you are or not- just saying!  )

Alas we're back at square one in deer areas as his EXCITEMENT has switched to deer- but not to worry i'm sure we'll get over that soon enough.

Good luck

x


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Sorry i meant to say by the 'is not and was not aggressive'- he displayed similar behaviours to yours... don't worry too soon about aggression, rather manage it all as unwanted behaviour


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I find it helps to allow the dog playtime with other dogs so it isn`t such a Forbidden Pleasure.
> Dogs do need to interact with ther own species.
> Is there no-one with nice dogs who would let them get to know yours and play off lead?


Unfortunately not. He gets to play with Maisy most of the time in the house, and we're working on really reinforcing the 'stop' command - hopefully this will help us distract him when he's excited (obviously his excitement will be at a higher level outside, but still), and if we happen to drop his lead, or a dog dashes right over, it might help then. Although, strangely, he's fine with other off lead dogs, too! Another thing that makes me think if he's free to play, he's ok. He chased around after a poodle puppy in big circles on the end of his long line, after greeting it nicely, and then sniffed it again at the end and left quite happily.

Sorry, I digress. The only people we know with dogs here (we're not from Swansea, we're students) are other students with badly behaved, snappy dogs, and I don't think the few dog walkers we chat to with Maisy would be too happy about walking with Rocky, since one of their spaniels yaps at him constantly, and Rocky barked at the other 



diefenbaker said:


> I think this is an important one. You can't have him thinking "I won't come this time I'll get the treat next time"... and Dief gets a lot of treats.. I'm such a pushover. If I understand correctly this is -R punishment ? The punishment is loss of freedom. I just stand with him holding his harness. No words, no eye contact, no movement. 60 seconds then release. It's rare to have two consecutives.


I definitely agree with this, but it isn't his recall as such that's the problem, it really is just breaking the concentration he gets when he sees another dog.



GingerRogers said:


> It is impossible thats true but eventually you will become an expert at finding places, I am lucky in that my OH work on a country estate, I can walk there at the moment, 99% guaranteed no dogs, if there are its the gamekeepers and he knows Ginge and she knows his dogs. Oh and we are also upping the ante on the watch me or 'wass iss' training as well, another thing I thought was pointless and would never work I just wasn't putting enough effort in. Good luck, it may take an awfully long time but I am a believer (I have to be ) that most dogs can be turned around
> 
> And gah at the rescue excuse, our old boy was given up because 'they lived on an estate in the centre of town and he liked to chase the neighbours cats' yeah right thats why he cowered at the sight of the hoover nozzle or a roll of wrapping paper, completely submitted from fear when muzzled, and had a strange need to attack small girls with big hair and men with walking sticks for a little while. He had been treated really well by his previous owners family hadn't he :nonod:


I suppose we're quite lucky in that we have woods at the back of us that lead onto a road running behind an industrial estate. 5 days out of 7, you won't see anyone, which is great  Just not guaranteed.

I giggled at 'wass iss', that's exactly what I say to him when he pulls on the lead. It works a treat, I'll just have to find smellier treats, I guess! And goodness knows why anyone would get rid of him, he's the biggest softy I've ever known. He's not scared of sticks or anything, like Maisy was, and yours, so I think it was more a case of not bothering than actual physical mistreatment, which is something, at least!



Julesky said:


> Hi!
> 
> This is or rather was  my dog- and i believe many under socialised rescues suffer from it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this! We're actually going to get hold of the centre we got him from, and see if we could walk him in their field with a couple of their dogs a few times a week. It would be helpful if we had anyone we knew that would let us walk with them, but it's just not the case.

Strangely, (perhaps) I very much do feel that he's ours. He's desperate to please you the rest of the time, so I think the trick really will be finding something that he wants. It's going to have to be something foodie, rather than a toy... perhaps hotdogs might work.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

We used hot dogs initially- then chicken, then peas? (he's a weirdo)... think mixing and matching works- bread particularly flatbreads are his top chomp though and dead easy to either pick off in your pocket or allow him to take a bit and tear

Best of luck and try not to worry too much!

yeah it was weird with us Bruno adored us and us him but I honestly don't think he settled proper for quite a few months- he was so cuddly and happy to please but it just didn't seem like he realised this was all his until quite a wee bit in!

ETA: we didn't know anyone else but socialising at the centre wash't going to happen or even if it did wasn't going to be the same as walks so i put myself out there with other owners, made a point of stopping for chats with them- particularly ones he had reacted to and just got to know people that way


good luck


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