# Working Line versus Show Line



## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

I always find these type of threads interesting, and to see the difference between the working line to the show line type of dogs. Which do you prefer? Please add other breeds.

I will start off with my two breeds.

Border Collie

Modern working collies














































Working collies of the past




























Show Border Collies


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

German Shepherds

Working Line
































































West German Show Line

















[/QUOTE]

American Show Line








[/QUOTE]

I will add some historical pics in a bit


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

As can probably be seen from the abundance of photos of working dogs in relation to the show ones (which I had to find on the net) my preference, in both looks and temperament, is for the working lines in both collies and GSDs.


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## michelleandant (Aug 29, 2012)

Working line springer




























Show line springer


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## sophieanne93 (Jul 4, 2012)

Moobli said:


> As can probably be seen from the abundance of photos of working dogs in relation to the show ones (which I had to find on the net) my preference, in both looks and temperament, is for the working lines in both collies and GSDs.


I must say I agree with you! They look so enthusiastic and natural in their work


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Working Line Labrador:

















Dogs that can actually do what they are bred for.

Show line Labrador:

























The above is US show champion - look at the excess weight on that!

To me it is clear, working! but most people tend to disagree.

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/lab-or-flab.html

With the German Shepherds, I wouldn't want a working or a show. I would be concerned that the working may be too intense for me, and a shows back is too bent, and it just looks wrong and unhealthy. 
I would probably look for a less exaggerated show type. (if there is such a thing?)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Historic Labradors










Edited to add, the two below are famous dual champions, they wouldn't get anywhere in the ring today, I know which I prefer overall.



















My half show, half jumble girls



















My three quarter show, quarter jumble girl (not a brilliant pick, she wouldn't stand still and nibbled my fingers to bits)



















Historic flatcoat (and retrieving poodles)










My dual purpose girl


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

dandogman said:


> The above is US show champion - look at the excess weight on that!
> 
> To me it is clear, working! but most people tend to disagree.
> 
> Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: Lab or flab?


I cringe when I see Labs like that! I was under the impression that show Labs are just more "solid" than those from working lines - most are but I was shocked by the amount of very overweight dogs I saw in the ring at Crufts.

Another working line Labrador here:









Breeze is a bit of everything but mostly working lines, she didn't win the genetic lottery


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

SL, I love that yellow Dual Champion you posted! Your girls are in terrific condition as usual


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## Reverie (Mar 26, 2012)

Uuuggh those show German Shepherds make me cringe! 

Love the pics of everyone's dogs though


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## Oenoke (Oct 17, 2009)

My Border Collies.

Bertie, show lines









Teagan, working lines









Skye and Star, sports lines (mix of working and show, bred specifically for agility)
Skye, 3/4 working, 1/4 show









Star, 7/8 working, 1/8 show









I prefer the sports lines.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Great photos everyone. Keep them coming. The differences are so defined in some breeds! Just look at the ESS!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Moobli said:


> Great photos everyone. Keep them coming. The differences are so defined in some breeds! Just look at the ESS!


Do you know if you can get less exaggerated show bred GSD's?


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## Wilmer (Aug 31, 2012)

I'm a bit shocked by the overweight champ Labrador; I thought show dogs had to be in good shape so that their natural conformation could be seen?

As for the show GSD's, no offence to anyone on here, but I do think the steeply sloping back/very bent legs looks incredibly uncomfortable


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I prefer... working type dogs for the most part. Only one I think I prefer is the Show Cocker, I think its just a very beautiful look.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

dandogman said:


> Do you know if you can get less exaggerated show bred GSD's?


I have a show line, longcoated GSD. He has never been shown or stacked, but I am sure I could make him look incredibly angulated if I tried. (I agree with you though, I hate to see them looking like that in the show ring)

Here he is standing normally



















He doesn't have the same intensity or energy of my WL, but is an excellent tracking dog.

I love him to bits, but would not choose to have a West German show line again.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2012)

MOOBLI your GSD's are gorgeous (I remember them from Dogsey, beautiful boys).

I don't really have a preference re working or show in GSDs, but I agree with others that the excessively sloping backs of some of the show type dogs is not appealing.

RE LABS - show Labs that are in proportion, and not overweight, can be stunning. My brother has a show type Lab, very 'blocky' but it's all muscle. He's an absolutely wonderful dog.

But yes, lots of overweight Labs around, very sad, the owners are lazy.


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## Beth17 (Jun 5, 2012)

I absolutely love the look of the working line GSD and although very unlikely I would get one as I doubt I could give them what they need if I ever did take the plunge that is what I'd get


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thorne said:


> SL, I love that yellow Dual Champion you posted! Your girls are in terrific condition as usual


Why thank you, I have to say however the ones of Indie and Tau are from a while ago, Indie still looks terrific but the arthritis in her knee is playing up at the moment bless her. Not helped by her niece bowling her over on the stairs a couple of weeks ago! The yellow Lab is Staindrop Saighdear, Knaith Banjo is another lovely historic yellow Lab.



Wilmer said:


> I'm a bit shocked by the overweight champ Labrador; I thought show dogs had to be in good shape so that their natural conformation could be seen?
> 
> As for the show GSD's, no offence to anyone on here, but I do think the steeply sloping back/very bent legs looks incredibly uncomfortable


From what I've been told, when you look at a Labrador from the side, there should be the same gap from their chest to the ground, as there is depth of chest, one thing I can't stand is a Labrador with no legs! And yes, some show Labradors do carry extra weight, how much is widely disputed, but I've heard of people who've put a stone on a Labrador to get it into show condition. I'm showing my numpty pup for the first time this weekend, I've not changed her weight at all, she's lovely and lean with a bit of puppy fat, just the way a puppy should be. And I know the person who's going with me with their Lab pup is the same. Will report back after the weekend


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

Personally, I like the look of working lines more than the show lines they all seem a little exaggerated IMO. But I guess a lot of that could be down to the grooming like the show ESS picture. I am another who doesn't like the back of show GSD but wonder how much it is down to the stacking?


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Hjjhjhjhff gghg


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Some working cockers:














































Some historic cockers, this first one was exported to the states and was one of the founding dogs used for the American cocker spaniel, couldn't look more different these days!


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## Catz1 (Sep 19, 2011)

I love working line GSD's, even more if they are dark sable :001_wub:

I've met a few west German show line GSD's and they don't look as sloped in real life, it is the stretched out stacking position that gives them the extreme look. 

American showlines, however, always look very angled to me even in a natural stack. I've never been a fan of American showlines at all. 

My next GSD is a toss up between a dark sable working line or a red and black German showline, it depends on the sport I decide to get into properly. 

Shutzhund has always been something I wanted to compete in but it takes a lot of dedication and time.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Bedlington terrier from 1890:










Working beddies:




























Show beddies



















The grooming for the showring changes the look of the dog alot but even so the show beddies are lighter, 'woolier' and more whippety than the working beddies. Working beddies sometimes have had some other type of terrier thrown in along the way to try and improve the coat and working ability so you do get quite a variation in type. I usually prefer working types in any sort of dog and beddies are no exception. Even so I still strangely like the show type and all the ones i've met, including my own boy, have been fanatic personalities and make great pets.

From speaking to elderly people and historical records, it seems bedlingtons used to have a reputation for being snappy and dog aggressive. However this hasn't come through to the modern show type and even the working ones are often seen as 'softer' than other terriers. I think that may be because they don't attract the people that want the hardest and gamest terrier around instead they seem to be a niche terrier for those that want to preserve them as a working breed.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Some working cockers:


Beautiful dogs! I am not a small dog person really, but I absolutely love some of the working cockers. The show ones in this thread are really lovely too.


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## MirandaA1 (Jan 12, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Some working cockers:


My grandmother had a cocker forty-five years ago that looked just like the dog in the top picture in the book - Mr Lloyd's Lucky Star of Ware. Storm was a very beautiful dog with a fantastic nature. My sister and I loved her like crazy!


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

My first Cocker Spaniel looked like Lloyd's Luck Star of Ware (about 45 years ago). He really was terrible as a dairy cattle herder but he was great with the family full of kids.

I really long for that field coat back in American Cockers, but it is not going to happen.

The new norm (pregroom) - 









Post a picture of your pet! - Page 57 - PurseForum

CC


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Some fabulous old photos of working GSDs :001_wub:

1912





































With Ava Gardner in the 1940s










DDR GSD 1982










1987










1982


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## lotlot (Mar 28, 2011)

lennythecloud said:


> Bedlington terrier from 1890:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm glad you posted about bedlingtons 

I have a working line bedlington and people seem to think he's a cross. Temperament wise the lines are very different too! I love the working lines  they're brilliant little terriers


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

I prefer working lines of all breeds and of course I have a working line Malinois.

This is my working line Malinois at a dog show, in which she got an Excellent, but wasn't shown good enough to earn a place in the final ring. 


















These are show bred Malis that I found when I googled (I have almost never met any show bred Malis in real life).


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Old fashioned (and lovely) Rough Collies




























Today's UK show type



















If you could still get an old fashioned, large rough collie with broader head and less coat, with working ability, I would be very tempted.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Love all the pics and comparisons, on the whole I liked the working lines more with the exception of possibly the collies where I preferred the sporting types.

Interesting to see the bedlingtons as well, they are quite popular around here and I have to say I look at them and think 'that is a working dog  really' clearly I have only seen show lines but the working line looks much more practical


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

we've got a show-lines border collie round my way, he's lovely but he's just so "solid" compared to working lines. He's not very overweight (could lose a bit but not much) but he's broader across the shoulders and he's not got the wirey litheness that to me makes a bc a bc.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> one thing I can't stand is a Labrador with no legs! And yes, some show Labradors do carry extra weight, how much is widely disputed, but I've heard of people who've put a stone on a Labrador to get it into show condition.


Lol, the first thing my mum said when she saw a picture of Spencer was along the lines of "he's got legs! All the ones I see have stumpy little legs and look silly but he doesn't!"

It's not just show Labs who carry extra weight. I know someone who shows corgis and she's said she can't wait for her bitch to finish so she can get the extra weight off her.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

This is my gsd his mum was white his dad was blue and tan it would be nice to here what you think he is from working or show lines i have no idea.

Also what colour would you discribe him as?He looks black with almost white markings.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Vicki said:


> I prefer working lines of all breeds and of course I have a working line Malinois.
> 
> This is my working line Malinois at a dog show, in which she got an Excellent, but wasn't shown good enough to earn a place in the final ring.
> 
> These are show bred Malis that I found when I googled (I have almost never met any show bred Malis in real life).


I see several every Wednesday afternoon...LOL BOB winners at Crufts too, but they do compete in obedience and agility as well.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> This is my gsd his mum was white his dad was blue and tan it would be nice to here what you think he is from working or show lines i have no idea.
> 
> Also what colour would you discribe him as?He looks black with almost white markings.


With a white mother and blue and tan father, I would hazard an educated guess that he will be pet bred, rather than show or working. He looks a lovely bear of a dog :001_wub: I would say he is blanket back black/tan - but I am no expert on colours


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I prefer the working lines in every breed I can think of... especially the Border Collie!

There is a show BC around here, and the difference between him and Arrow is just astounding... Because of his coat, he looks so much bigger than Arrow... but yet Arrow is nearly 6kg heavier!  and it isn't like Arrow is a fat dog...



















Arrow is from working lines, and he is quite simply, perfect. I love how he looks, moves, and his temperament... It will only be working lines for me. Sometimes I just can't get over the difference in BCs, especially when you see the BCs at crufts... they all look like carbon copies of each other. The working lines have much more variety, and differences in looks... and I like that


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Completely off topic (well not really the show lines wouldn't have them) but lozzibear you have dogs with fabulously wonky ears  I love them!!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

GingerRogers said:


> Completely off topic (well not really the show lines wouldn't have them) but lozzibear you have dogs with fabulously wonky ears  I love them!!


I love dogs with wonky ears or markings that aren't symmetrical or are a bit odd, think it gives them character lol. Someone once had a right go at me for saying I liked her dogs odd ears though.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I much prefer most working lines but I will say that although a lot of show lines are very different it is often just the presentation.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> I love dogs with wonky ears or markings that aren't symmetrical or are a bit odd, think it gives them character lol. Someone once had a right go at me for saying I liked her dogs odd ears though.


Oops hope you take it well lozzi 

I so agree with you Sarah, its one of the things I loved most about the way our old boy looked one half of his face was brown the other white split right down the middle I always thought he looked like someone spilt paint on him, as he got older though the brown started to recede until he was almost all white 

Back on topic, think I will view dogs very differently now, I can see now our friends collie is very much a show bred dog (go forbid I tell him, he thinks she is a real sheepdog) whereas the hubby's farm boys are definitely working breed much wirier, leaner, not always but often shorter coated, practicality I guess, same as with the working GSD, they look like lean mean working machines rather than fluffy bears 

Not that I am ever likely to own a working or show bred anything (we nearly took Stan for retirement but he said he would rather keep working till he dropped, he was a special dog ) I like dogs with wonky ears


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Moobli said:


> With a white mother and blue and tan father, I would hazard an educated guess that he will be pet bred, rather than show or working. He looks a lovely bear of a dog :001_wub: I would say he is blanket back black/tan - but I am no expert on colours


Thankyou for your opinion yes he was pet bred i didnt realise this was another option 

What does blanket back mean? The colour of the 'tan' is much much lighter than any tan iv seen in places especially his chest its nearly white i have never seen a gsd like him the closest iv seen to him are the black and white huskys he was the only one in the litter this colour.It will be great to hear what others think..


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## Tacey (Mar 4, 2012)

April from working lines, and her best friend Fergus from show lines


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Thankyou for your opinion yes he was pet bred i didnt realise this was another option
> 
> What does blanket back mean? The colour of the 'tan' is much much lighter than any tan iv seen in places especially his chest its nearly white i have never seen a gsd like him the closest iv seen to him are the black and white huskys he was the only one in the litter this colour.It will be great to hear what others think..


A blanket back is basically an extra large "saddle" that covers most of the body. Due to the colours of your dog's parents, his tan will probably look quite diluted and much lighter than dogs of, say, the traditional black/deep rich tan.


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## clairesdogs (Aug 10, 2011)

I have working cockers, we compete in Agility and Flyball and we do fun gundog training. I love the drive of working cockers, mine will go all day, thankfully they are very well exercised and mentally stimulated, if they were in a normal pet home they would be a nightmare (this applies to mine, they are trial bred so have even more drive!)

here is my girl Jess, 2 years old









Ollie my 2 year old









To show the size difference in working lines, Jess (aged 2) with my friends boy who is 7 (with a show type woo oooing in the back!)








My friends show type, shes a lovely girl, no brain though and lots of hair!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Moobli said:


> A blanket back is basically an extra large "saddle" that covers most of the body. Due to the colours of your dog's parents, his tan will probably look quite diluted and much lighter than dogs of, say, the traditional black/deep rich tan.


Right im with ya.

I take it my dogs dad the blue was a dilute of black.

But correct me if im wrong,my dogs mum the white,could her white be masking what would really be a black coloured dog? Do you get me?


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

GingerRogers said:


> Completely off topic (well not really the show lines wouldn't have them) but lozzibear you have dogs with fabulously wonky ears  I love them!!


Don't worry, I won't take offence... I love their wonky ears  When I just had Jake, I didn't realise just how many dogs have the same ears (as in the ears are the same as each other )... until someone pointed out that they liked the fact Jake's ears are odd (as in not matching ). I then started paying extra attention to dogs ears  I think I am destined to have dogs who only have odd ears... even when Arrows both stick up (the right one has a mind of its own  ) the tip of his right one still flops at the tip :lol:


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## Kc Mac (Jul 26, 2011)

dandogman said:


> With the German Shepherds, I wouldn't want a working or a show.


The simple answer would be a mix of working and show  although it is not approved of by some GSD people 

My boy Ottokar is a mix of work and show lines 










Demonstrating his working side









Demonstrating his show side









Free standing, soaking wet after a swim!









Otto is not angulated enough for the show judges  and not drivey enough for serious work people . BUT he is perfect for me :001_wub: 

As the pictures show, when stacked he is more 'slopey backed' but not horrifically, hence he doesn't do well in the show ring 

Here is a picture with his litter sister, she is much more drivey than him and a much stronger character  she works for herself,whereas Otto works for me 



















And the black GSD is a working line male 

I personally tend to sway towards working bred dogs over show lines


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## Labrador Laura (Sep 12, 2010)

Mylo is from Show lines, what lines i don't know OH is useless with keeping things  and i've only just found his breeder so trying to get information.

Mylo is stocky, well built with a large head. He's been mistaken for a Rottweiler at times and people always ask 'what is he?' I do prefer the show to the working but i think thats just because i love Mylo.
I love the working GSD's, Your Zak :001_wub: and other working line breeds but some showing i don't agree with.


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## Kc Mac (Jul 26, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> This is my gsd his mum was white his dad was blue and tan it would be nice to here what you think he is from working or show lines i have no idea.
> 
> Also what colour would you discribe him as?He looks black with almost white markings.


To be brutally honest, he would have been bred for the pet market. Both parents are non standard colours which would not have been bred by reputable breeders. He also looks more English bred than German to me 

He looks very sweet and looks like a black and tan to me 

My boy is Black and Tan and he has white toes, white splash on his chest and his hairy knickers are almost white - not desired but acceptable . He was actually bred for work although comes from a kennel that used to be very much a show kennel!


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

dandogman said:


> With the German Shepherds, I wouldn't want a working or a show. I would be concerned that the working may be too intense for me, and a shows back is too bent, and it just looks wrong and unhealthy.
> I would probably look for a less exaggerated show type. (if there is such a thing?)


Yeah, my GSD doesn't look like Moobli's but she's not all wonky either... Although I like the look of the working line ones, I don't know enough about them to know if I would provide a suitable home...

Naomi


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Kc Mac said:


> To be brutally honest, he would have been bred for the pet market. Both parents are non standard colours which would not have been bred by reputable breeders. He also looks more English bred than German to me
> 
> He looks very sweet and looks like a black and tan to me
> 
> My boy is Black and Tan and he has white toes, white splash on his chest and his hairy knickers are almost white - not desired but acceptable . He was actually bred for work although comes from a kennel that used to be very much a show kennel!


Thanx for your opinion can you explain why you think hes english lookng please.He was bred for pet home yes.He isnt kc reg.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

'Working Groenendael










and his 'show' half brother










'Working' Tervueren










and his 'show' brother










'Working' Malinois










and his 'Show ' half sister










'working' Laekenois










and the same dog being shown










spot the difference ? ...no ??? - that's because BSD are amongst the most versatile breed in the world and there should be *NO *show/work split


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

dandogman said:


> Working Line Labrador:
> 
> Show line Labrador:[/url]


You are comparing apples with pears comparing a US show bred Lab with a UK bred working one - The large majority of US dogs are much chunkier than UK bred show dogs (for a start off) but many of them still are used for, and do well at trialling.

That dog you show has a good spring of rib - you would need to have a much better photo and go hands on to determine how much is true frame substance and how much, if any, is excess weight.

Similarly, in my recent pursuit of a stud dog for a friend, I have stumbled across several attractive chunky FT CHs - proving a Labrador does NOT need to be like a whippet to succeed in working and trials; I am darn sure some of these dogs would also hold their own in the showring.

It does make me chuckle when a large component of the breed standard was written by the working folk - the breed standard that the show people breed to but the working folk don't.

Head description as a starter

*Head and Skull*

Skull *broad *with defined stop; clean-cut without fleshy cheeks. *Jaws of medium length, powerful not snipy*. Nose wide, nostrils well developed.

You need a dog to be balanced with good angulation to be capable of doing the job it does.

NONE of my dogs are overdone, and if anyone bothered to spend any time around the showring they would see that very few dogs in the ring actually are - and carrying excess weight will be penalised.

Tell me what's overdone or "unagile" about these !!!!!!!!!!!


























Oh - and a showbred dog (and a chocolate at that) really struggling to work - NOT

















Nothing overdone about these dogs
















I've even got ones that can swim and "walk on water" as well as being in the showring








Those are my own and a friends dogs - two of which are half sisters - if it wasn't for copyright laws, I could show you hundreds of pictures of dogs, many with tickets and reserve tickets under their belt, some made up to champions, and others that hold their own in the ring who can and regularly DO go out and do an honest days work one day and appear at a show the next.

===========================

As for balance and angulation


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

My parents have owned both from Working lines and Show lines. We found the dog from the working line needed more stimuli but on the whole was obedient and easy to train. The dog from the Show line - well I took him for training, he was head strong and highly strung.

I am not convinced there is a huge difference every pup/dog has its own character and temperament.

Both dogs would round up ie drop low and stalk, they both had the traits of a BC.


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## Labrador Laura (Sep 12, 2010)

swarthy said:


> You are comparing apples with pears comparing a US show bred Lab with a UK bred working one - The large majority of US dogs are much chunkier than UK bred show dogs (for a start off) but many of them still are used for, and do well at trialling.
> 
> That dog you show has a good spring of rib - you would need to have a much better photo and go hands on to determine how much is true frame substance and how much, if any, is excess weight.
> 
> ...


Lovely pictures !! Your dog are gorgeous.

10years ago i met my step dads, brother-in-laws gundogs and all three of his were just like my Mylo not like the skinner, thin faced working Labrador you get today. His dogs were champions and brilliant to watch, and all his previous labs were the same.

Mylo could do just as much work as a working line Labrador, he has so much drive in him and his energy levels are very high, he's a very strong swimmer and strong all around. The only thing that would fail is his nose, he's abit :huh: when he looking for something. But he loves being on the go and doesn't stop, today i had lovely comment about his muscle tone, coat and how much energy he had for a 7year old dog. Also Mylo's dad was a champion gundog, and his mother was shown.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Moobli said:


> As can probably be seen from the abundance of photos of working dogs in relation to the show ones (which I had to find on the net) my preference, in both looks and temperament, is for the working lines in both collies and GSDs.


There are still plenty of show border collies around of the type you showed above, and they do still win prizes, but since I've been showing border collies I've noticed that there has been a subtle swing away from the longer-coated New Zealand type, and this has meant that sometimes there is not such as great a division between working and shiow lines. For example, compare Old Hemp first of all to my Xia, and then to the winner of Border Collie of the year

This is Old Hemp, who I'm sure you know was the progenitor of the modern border collie:










And this is my Xia, who is a previous winner of Border Collie Minor Puppy of the Year, and has qualified for Crufts every year:










Not such a great deal of difference!

Hwere she is on the move:










And here is the border collie that won Border Collie of the Year this year:










Again, not a marked difference to Old Hemp.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

I seldom see the "Whippet-y" working Labs at all . Most of the ones I've met that are workers are a similar build to Scooter - solid and muscular but lean and athletic. I'm afraid I'm not drawn to the show strain, but it's always nice to see a "chunky" but trim Labrador out and about. Nor am I too keen on the very lightly built ones - I like a happy medium!










For the record Scooter is a bit useless, he's got little to no drive to retrieve and was selected as "the pet" from his litter. Breeze was never trained to retrieve by her last owner but out of the blue did a perfect retrieve with something I'd thrown for Scooter  She'd have made a brilliant worker if she wasn't gun shy.

There are definitely a lot of fat show Labs around, I'm sure I wasn't imagining the waddles and rolls!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

BSD Malinois Working Line are VASTLY different from those bred for show or pet in the UK

No show line Malinois has won an Obedience Ticket 
No show line Malinois has won a Working Trial Ticket or become a WT Champion 
No show line Malinois has a Schutzhund title 
No show line Malinois has a Mondioring title (or has been a World Champion)

The first Malinois to gain all of the above titles have been bred by John and Sue Rumble, kennel name Jotunheim.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Working line BC Gruff.....although he's never worked


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> There are still plenty of show border collies around of the type you showed above, and they do still win prizes, but since I've been showing border collies I've noticed that there has been a subtle swing away from the longer-coated New Zealand type, and this has meant that sometimes there is not such as great a division between working and shiow lines. For example, compare Old Hemp first of all to my Xia, and then to the winner of Border Collie of the year


That is good news. Although, of course the border collie is all about its working ability, rather than its looks, but it is nice to hear that the show collies are moving back towards their working roots and moving away from the NZ type.

As in all things, it is each to their own.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> No show line Malinois has won an Obedience Ticket
> No show line Malinois has won a Working Trial Ticket or become a WT Champion
> No show line Malinois has a Schutzhund title
> No show line Malinois has a Mondioring title (or has been a World Champion)


bit of a narrow definition of 'work ' there Smokey !

How about all the Bonvivant, Goldmali or Belsharose Malinois ( All so called 'show ' lines ) working as Police SAR or assistance dogs ?- what about those 'show line Malinois that excel in Agilty such as Ag Champion Bonvivant Kalisto - simply because it's not YOUR choice of canine pastime does not make it equally as much 'work' to the dogs involved


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Bijou said:


> 'Working Groenendael
> 
> 
> 
> ...


None of those look like working line to me. I agree that the Belgian Shepherd is a versatile breed, but the fact that a dog can do some work on a lower level, which most BSDs can, doesn't make them from working lines. There's a huge difference in mentality between show and working line BSDs.

The differences are bigger in the beautiful BSDs, ie the Tervueren and the Groenendael, than in Malis, which are not considered as beautiful and therefore not as popular as show dogs. I have no experience with the laekenois, so I don't know much about them apart from what I've read, but I have experiences with Tervuerens (for example I have owned one) and Groenendaels and they don't have the mentality of a working dog. They are often shy and fearful and doesn't have the drives necessary for a working dog. Even those bred for work hardly have the necessary traits.

My Tervueren was show bred and a complete nervous wreck. She was scared of just about everything and could handle her fear with aggression. Not a very good dog for working (or showing, for that matter).


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Bijou said:


> bit of a narrow definition of 'work ' there Smokey !
> 
> How about all the Bonvivant, Goldmali or Belsharose Malinois ( All so called 'show ' lines ) working as Police SAR or assistance dogs ?- what about those 'show line Malinois that excel in Agilty such as Ag Champion Bonvivant Kalisto - simply because it's not YOUR choice of canine pastime does not make it equally as much 'work' to the dogs involved


I've actually met a dog from Bonvivant at a competition, which is quite odd because I live in Sweden  This dog was imported and I for one can't imagine why someone would go to the length of importing a show bred Mali 

But this couple had and the dog did not impress me one bit, even if they were competing at a high level in something called messenger dog here in Scandinavia. The dog completely failed in the competition that I saw and when I met the dog and talked to the owners I was even less impressed. According to them the dog was not so interested in cooperating, found obedience boring and didn't have the drives a working Mali should have (hence the failed result; it was a hot day and when the dog found it tough he just quit).

Doing agility is not working. It's not that it's not my choice of activity, because I did agility with my previous dog and he loved it and was very good at it. However, agility is easy and it doesn't require any of the traits that a working dog should have. In my opinion, obedience isn't work either, because it doesn't require much from the dog. Neither agility nor obedience makes a working dog a happy dog. But of course you can do agility, flyball, freestyle, obedience etc *too* (I love obedience and compete with my Mali, but only doing obedience isn't enough for a dog with her drives).


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Agility and obedience are just as much work as Schutzhund or Mondioring are
- they are all simply canine hobbies and that fact that some include hanging off a padded sleeve does NOT make them intrinsically more 'work' than any of the others.

Your experience with 'show line' dogs does not mirror my own ( and I've owned, bred, judged and shown BSD for over 25 years ) - indeed conversely I have known many so called working bred Malinois who have come onto our breed rescue whose intrinsic Pastoral breed character was changed to the extent that they were frankly impossible to rehome - it's very telling that only this one variety is bred 'differently to the other three - in the UK there are no working Groenendael, Tervueren or Laekenois kennels - they are simply breeders of versatile BSD !

So just WHO is breeding the real Belgian Shepherd dog


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

swarthy said:


> You are comparing apples with pears comparing a US show bred Lab with a UK bred working one - The large majority of US dogs are much chunkier than UK bred show dogs (for a start off) but many of them still are used for, and do well at trialling.
> 
> That dog you show has a good spring of rib - you would need to have a much better photo and go hands on to determine how much is true frame substance and how much, if any, is excess weight.
> 
> ...


They still look a little chunky to *me*. Just being honest, and I am entitled to my opinion.

With no disrespect, the show dogs don't work all day, everyday. Working bred labradors in working homes tend to, I doubt a working bred dog would cope as well as a working bred dog. The lighter, more agile frame makes the worker faster, and therefore more efficient. The working dog also has more drive to want to work. 
Obviously I have *much much* less experience in the breed than you do, and I openly admit that.

That diagram above looks much more like a working bred dog than a show bred dog.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Bijou said:


> Agility and obedience are just as much work as Schutzhund or Mondioring are
> - they are all simply canine hobbies and that fact that some include hanging off a padded sleeve does NOT make them intrinsically more 'work' than any of the others.


Yes, they are canine hobbies, but agility and obedience is just for fun, while ringsports, tracking etc has a real value in maintaining traits that makes a dog suitable for for example police and military work.

Any dog can do agility, but any dog can't become a police dog.


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## tra23dog (Mar 1, 2012)

> The lighter, more agile frame makes the worker faster, and therefore more efficient. The working dog also has more drive to want to work.


I own the showbred Chocolate jumping over the log with a pheasant in Swarthy's post and he has worked several days in a row. He can also swim across an icy lake and bring a goose in - something I know some agile framed working dogs would find difficult, as I have seen it! My dog was the only dog on the shoot who could swim and get the dead goose!


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

tra23dog said:


> I own the showbred Chocolate jumping over the log with a pheasant in Swarthy's post and he has worked several days in a row. He can also swim across an icy lake and bring a goose in - something I know some agile framed working dogs would find difficult, as I have seen it! My dog was the only dog on the shoot who could swim and get the dead goose!


Good point! My very small predominantly working lines Lab isn't much bigger than a goose herself, so even though she has a good retrieve on her I can't see her managing to drag that in!

If my other one could be bothered I imagine he'd go in and get it then run off with it


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Bijou said:


> bit of a narrow definition of 'work ' there Smokey !
> 
> How about all the Bonvivant, Goldmali or Belsharose Malinois ( All so called 'show ' lines ) working as Police SAR or assistance dogs ?- what about those 'show line Malinois that excel in Agilty such as Ag Champion Bonvivant Kalisto - simply because it's not YOUR choice of canine pastime does not make it equally as much 'work' to the dogs involved


Oh I forgot, there are lots of Working Line dogs (including those of the Jotunheim Dogs) which are SAR dogs, Police Dogs and Military Dogs.

And of course there are some world team agility handlers who now own working line Jotunheim Dogs.

Sorry I did not list ALL of the possibilities, but glad you reminded me so they could be included.

It was very remiss of me to leave them out.

And of course Goldmali have a puppy from a Jotunheim sire now in their kennel.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thorne said:


> I seldom see the "Whippet-y" working Labs at all . Most of the ones I've met that are workers are a similar build to Scooter - solid and muscular but lean and athletic. I'm afraid I'm not drawn to the show strain, but it's always nice to see a "chunky" but trim Labrador out and about. Nor am I too keen on the very lightly built ones - I like a happy medium!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to agree, and the BS was written by working folk, and abandoned by it as well. Showing is not for the most part, about folks who show the Labradors *and* work them, in fact I know one person who's admitted they're too lazy to train their Labs to work, showing is easier.

I'm back from a 24 hour journey to the LRC to show Zasa, and Lexilou2 took her pup Nala who was just old enough literally today to join in. We were in Minor Puppy Bitch and Puppy Bitch. We were approached by a well meaning fellow competitor, whose first piece of advice was that we needed to put more weight on our pups to get placed. And yet when explaining why a dog had won their particular class, were at pains to point out the dog in question didn't carry any excess weight. Surely it's one way or the other?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

tra23dog said:


> I own the showbred Chocolate jumping over the log with a pheasant in Swarthy's post and he has worked several days in a row. He can also swim across an icy lake and bring a goose in - something I know some agile framed working dogs would find difficult, as I have seen it! My dog was the only dog on the shoot who could swim and get the dead goose!


Well all credit to him, but he is not the typical show bred dog.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

dandogman said:


> They still look a little chunky to *me*. Just being honest, and I am entitled to my opinion.
> 
> With no disrespect, the show dogs don't work all day, everyday. Working bred labradors in working homes tend to, I doubt a working bred dog would cope as well as a working bred dog. The lighter, more agile frame makes the worker faster, and therefore more efficient. The working dog also has more drive to want to work.
> Obviously I have *much much* less experience in the breed than you do, and I openly admit that.


It might surprise you then to know that FOUR of those dogs are not wholly show bred - with three of them having some of the most prolific working titled dogs in history behind them - and another of them - her mother is the product of a full champion produced by a FT AW and a SH CH.

There ARE well made correctly conformed chunky attractive working bred dogs out there who have been made up to FT CH - that is FACT.

*Let's be VERY clear - I have absolutely NO objection to someone having a preference - that is everyone's prerogative - but let's not argue over what is correct - the breed standard is correct - some dogs will have faults - some minor, some major - but that is VERY different to having a visual preference over the type of dog you like/B]

I love ALL dogs, fat, thin, small, large, pedigree, cross-breed or heinz 57 - I just LOVE dogs and have done seemingly to the extent my mother is surprised I got through being a toddler with my fingers intact. I won't say the same however for some of the people who breed them (and no, I am NOT talking about working Lab breeders here).

But at the same time, lets not have people kid themselves that their dogs are something they aren't - I certainly don't - I know their limitations in the show-ring, I know their strengths and their weaknesses and where I can go to try and improve them should I wish to.

I can also assure you if you met any of my dogs in the flesh - you would quickly recognise they are NOT chunky and are solid muscle without a cm of fat on them, never mind "pinching an inch" -

When a vet tells you your Lab is in good condition, you know it is (not something very often heard by vets where labs are concerned).

===============

It might also surprise you to note there are dogs out there from the show-ring working regularly - many have gone beyond full champions - whether we will see another dual champion remains to be seen - but there are some dogs who are doing pretty impressive things out there and if you are not on both sides of the coin and don't know the people concerned, you cannot argue that this is untrue.

Full champions and other successful show-bred dogs don't stumble into the Gamekeepers ring at Crufts by accident -they work a FULL season picking up



dandogman said:



That diagram above looks much more like a working bred dog than a show bred dog.

Click to expand...

Prove it!

i.e. get some photos of working dogs standing and mark up the correct balance and angulation on them as per the diagram - it's not just about the substance it's about the balance and the angulation; bone won't slow them down or stop them jumping - fat and being unfit will - and I've seen more than a few working bred light boned overweight dogs in pet homes.

That image is an outline structure of a conformationally correct dog - it could just as easily be another breed - in fact - I did my last hands on KC assessment on another breed (and passed).*


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I have to agree, and the BS was written by working folk, and abandoned by it as well. Showing is not for the most part, about folks who show the Labradors *and* work them, in fact I know one person who's admitted they're too lazy to train their Labs to work, showing is easier.
> 
> I'm back from a 24 hour journey to the LRC to show Zasa, and Lexilou2 took her pup Nala who was just old enough literally today to join in. We were in Minor Puppy Bitch and Puppy Bitch. We were approached by a well meaning fellow competitor, whose first piece of advice was that we needed to put more weight on our pups to get placed. And yet when explaining why a dog had won their particular class, were at pains to point out the dog in question didn't carry any excess weight. Surely it's one way or the other?


I'll second this, I had one woman ask me if i had actually turned up expecting to win as there is no way I would, I would have to put, to quote her, A LOT more weight on my dog to have a chance, Nala is hardly skinny, at 6 months she is a little leggy, and I am the first to admit that but i don't see how putting weight on her will help. Don't get me wrong there were some nice looking dogs there today, but in comparrison to some which in my opinion were far too extreme Nala looked postively underfed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> I'll second this, I had one woman ask me if i had actually turned up expecting to win as there is no way I would, I would have to put, to quote her, A LOT more weight on my dog to have a chance, Nala is hardly skinny, at 6 months she is a little leggy, and I am the first to admit that but i don't see how putting weight on her will help. Don't get me wrong there were some nice looking dogs there today, but in comparrison to some which in my opinion were far too extreme Nala looked postively underfed.


I would like to, at this point, admit we both got placed, and embaressingly I got placed above Nicki with her pup, but Zasa is a month older with a little more spring in the ribs at the moment, so we came 4th and 5th out of a class where there weren 7 entries, and 5 people turned up. However, we brought the best pups home


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> I'll second this, I had one woman ask me if i had actually turned up expecting to win as there is no way I would, I would have to put, to quote her, A LOT more weight on my dog to have a chance, Nala is hardly skinny, at 6 months she is a little leggy, and I am the first to admit that but i don't see how putting weight on her will help. Don't get me wrong there were some nice looking dogs there today, but in comparrison to some which in my opinion were far too extreme Nala looked postively underfed.


To be very honest, I'm absolutely disgusted by the individual's behaviour, what was said to you, and how they acted. Your girl is a cracking little character, and nobody should tell you she's inferior in any way, she should have a fair go under any judge the same as any other dog.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> To be very honest, I'm absolutely disgusted by the individual's behaviour, what was said to you, and how they acted. Your girl is a cracking little character, and nobody should tell you she's inferior in any way, she should have a fair go under any judge the same as any other dog.


Water off a ducks back, I know she isn't everyones ideal, but she was against dogs that were 3 months older than her, and a pup can change a lot in three months.


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## tra23dog (Mar 1, 2012)

> Well all credit to him, but he is not the typical show bred dog.
> Like


Not sure what you mean? He is 100% showbred, has been successfully shown and qualified for Crufts several times. This is him standing









He is a strongly built dog with muscle not fat but he has substance which isn't the same as fat.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

SL and Lexilou1, it's a shame that people still think like that!
I've heard the same said about native show ponies, and the Suffolk Horses seen in the show ring are almost all very overweight.
There's even "healthy weight" classes at some shows because of the amount of horses being fed up to near obesity for the ring.

On the other end of the scale is the APBT. The show condition and weight depends which registry they are being shown under. These 2 dual-champions are shown under the UKC and ADBA, and are a good example of how "conditioned" the ADBA dogs are. I think they must be closest to the original working pitbulls (hopefully none of the ADBA show dogs are "worked" in the breed's traditional sense!).
CH KIDDO
Matrix Kennels ADBA CH Monk

The ADBA standard asks for "a lean, exercised animal showing a hint of rib and backbone (without hipbones showing) with muscles firm and defined". Puppies should not show ribs/backbone/hipbones.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thorne said:


> SL and Lexilou1, it's a shame that people still think like that!
> I've heard the same said about native show ponies, and the Suffolk Horses seen in the show ring are almost all very overweight.
> There's even "healthy weight" classes at some shows because of the amount of horses being fed up to near obesity for the ring.
> 
> ...


I know about show ponies, a couple of rental properties ago, someone who was at livery in the yard next door had a show pony, lovely girl, but they couldn't stop her eating. They had to muzzle her, and even then she was as fat as a barrell!! They got told off at one show for taking her in the ring over weight, let's hope they catch up with Labradors at some point!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Thorne said:


> SL and Lexilou1, it's a shame that people still think like that!


People rarely think like that unless a dog is VERY skinny.

What seems to escape people over and over again is that there is a *significant difference* between substance and fat.

ALL my dogs are moderate - middle of the road - and the hypocrisy I've witnessed here when the evidence to the contrary is trawled across many websites is hysterical :lol:

Only TWO of my 6 dogs are actually fully show-bred - the chocolate walking on water is 25kg - you call THAT chunky  the black in that photo was 27.5kg at the time - bigger boned yes - but still not chunky by any stretch of the imagination - yet the half sister / mother to these two dogs was lean at 34kg - I lost track of the number of people who told me I needed a dog with more substance - strangely enough - I don't get told that about her black daughter.

Show-bred dogs will typically have more bone than working bred dogs - so the latter may have a lighter structure - but how can working folk by their own admission abandon a breed standard where angulation and balance are critical to the job they are required to do.

I am also led to believe (but cannot confirm or deny on my experience) that many working bred labs don't have double coats - again - something very much needed to do the job for which they are bred.

There are some truly stunning examples of Labradors in the ring today who can walk out of the main ring at Crufts with a 1st in a breed class, walk into the GK ring and do the same. The knowledge and experience of these breeders should be nurtured by newcomers to the ring or field (and many many more doing both at the same time).

I have also seen more than a few truly stunning working dogs who I wouldn't kick out of a ring if I was judging - and interestingly - these dogs which have greater substance, are FT CH and FT AW - neither any easy mean feat - but proving you CAN do both - and both sides do.

Pups DO change of course they do - but you cannot create bone where none exists - you can't change incorrect conformation - short of using contact lenses - there's not much you can do about an incorrect eye colour (and then of course you would be breaking the rules) - you can't create balance where none exists.

The critical period of development in a Lab is in the first 6 to 9 months of life - I like to see a puppy being a puppy - I like to see all the funny growth phases they go through - the bum highs and the waggles and playfulness

Whilst frustrating at times, I've reaped the rewards of having slow maturing dogs and learnt a hell of a lot along the way - but know just a fraction of many show, dual purpose and working folk - many of whom I respect despite the differences in opinion. it was a working gentleman who took my boy into the main ring at Crufts this year as I was unable to.

Perfect conformation is rare - but there are some dogs who do have it - and can and have done an honest days work - along with the many near perfect and not so perfect show-bred dogs.

A nicely assembled Labrador is just that - and tra23dog's dog has super substance and conformation along with a temperament to die for and had produced some very nice pups - I may be in a position to use him myself one day.

He is very much all Lab with a super pedigree - it just so happens he is happier out working than he is in the ring, and all credit to his owner for recognising that and being able to do something about it. (his niece, who is half sister to my black girl is a phenomenal worker).

We used to take some of ours to gun-dog training - the trainer wanted to take my chocolate home with him (and it's no secret how chocolates have generally been viewed in the working arena until recently) - he also adored my black girl and would quite happily have taken her as well.

I have two here who would be rubbish at working (the most working bred of my dogs) - and I have four who I have no doubt in the right hands, could be moulded.

Sadly, my health (which is no joke despite the snide comments I've had from some hypocrites) has thrown out any option of me doing anything about it - I am on permanent controlled drug painkilling patches topped up with co-codamol, tramadol, diazepam (and have to have remembered my amitryptyline the night before - then I can just about make it around a medium sized showring - but am in agony the minute I stop 

I will stop showing when hell freezes over - god forbid I do eventually become unable to get around the ring - then my OH will carry it on for me and is there to support me.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

swarthy said:


> I am also led to believe (but cannot confirm or deny on my experience) that many working bred labs don't have double coats - again - something very much needed to do the job for which they are bred.


Out of interest, why would someone wanting a good working labrador breed dogs without a trait that's essential to their work?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> Out of interest, why would someone wanting a good working labrador breed dogs without a trait that's essential to their work?


They don't but some will work despite not having a double coat. Contradictory to this, I saw a dog placed first today in their class with a very thick band of VERY wavy hair down their back, the Labrador breed standard calls for a coat that is free or kink or wave.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Swarthy, your dogs (and tra23dog's handsome boy) always look to be in excellent shape and there is definitely a difference between substance and fat. My two for example couldn't be fed up to fit the breed standard, they're lighter boned and just not the right shape! Breeze is downright bizarre-looking 

I just think it's sad that there are still people out there who will put a genuinely fat dog into the ring and criticise those showing leaner dogs. Although I wasn't there when Lexilou2 was "critiqued" at her show, that attitude isn't helping new exhibitors and isn't a good attitude to have towards a dog's weight so I am hoping it is held by a minority in the show world.
After all it's the judge's decision that's final, not that of snidey fellow competitors.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Wouldn't it be nice to not have the "show" versus "working" lines.

Just the "breed" as it should be, good looking and able to do what its bred for


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Kinjilabs said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to not have the "show" versus "working" lines.
> 
> Just the "breed" as it should be, good looking and able to do what its bred for


Wouldn't it be nice to just have honest people, whether or not they were show or working lines?


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to just have honest people, whether or not they were show or working lines?


Sorry dont get the question


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

closing this for now to read through as there seems to be some off topic problems


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

If there posters on this thread who have a problem over a breeding issue I suggest you take it up privately rather than airing your grievances on an open forum.


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## Kinjilabs (Apr 15, 2009)

lymorelynn said:


> If there posters on this thread who have a problem over a breeding issue I suggest you take it up privately rather than airing your grievances on an open forum.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> They don't but some will work despite not having a double coat. Contradictory to this, I saw a dog placed first today in their class with a very thick band of VERY wavy hair down their back, the Labrador breed standard calls for a coat that is free or kink or wave.


But if they are working well without a double coat then it's surely it's not 'very much needed'? (though I completely understand why theoretically double coated dogs would have an advantage)

Function doesn't always follow form and it's common for working people in many breeds say that the squiffy, 'ugly' dog by show standards can often surprise with an amazing working ability. I suppose that's why there's such a gulf between working and show types in alot of breeds, it's a case of different priorities with one group focusing on what a dog is, the other on what it does and then a group in the middle trying to balance both.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I can't actually view beyond page 9, but I can confirm I am now being threatened with legal action off forum because I dared to actually post the course of a conversation between myself and a stud dog owner. The fact that they blatantly lied about me phoning them is anothere issue I'm sure. Perhaps the Labrador ate the phone cable?


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Kinjilabs said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to not have the "show" versus "working" lines.
> 
> Just the "breed" as it should be, good looking and able to do what its bred for


I tend to agree with you on that Kinjilabs. Why do dogs breed for show purposes have to look different from those that work, they could look the same couldn`t they even if one never gets within a mile of a Bird/sheep etc


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

It does depend on breed, some have a wider gap than others, but personally, I find show dogs overdone - yes, they may adhere to the breed standard, but the points in the breed standard have been exaggerated, sometimes to extreme. There is nothing in the breed standard that says how much substance a dog needs, or how wide its skull should be.

I have also attended breed seminars and the labs we had to go over were IMO, too heavy - not necessarily fat, but just too heavy, large, blocky heads (and my pet hate) droopy eyelids.

I don't think this is just labradors though - I notice that substance seems to be generally heavier in all show breeds.

Working bred dogs just seem to look much more natural.

I won't go into working qualities, but while some show bred dogs can pick up and do a useful job on a small shoot, their abilities simply do not compare. And, there is a lot more to a working dog than speed, agility and the ability to retrieve. 

And if you look at old shooting photos, the labs of today's shoots would not look out of place. However, you will not see the heavier show type labs in those old photos.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Kinjilabs
> Wouldn't it be nice to not have the "show" versus "working" lines.
> 
> Just the "breed" as it should be, good looking and able to do what its bred for


I'm not so sure. The breeds have evolved and who is to say what a breed should look like. The breed standard? Yes, but it is only a vague list of requirements that could apply to all the different types.

Personally, if there were only show labs left, I would probably change breeds. Not saying there shouldn't be show bred labs. Obviously they are ideal for some, but I, for one, am grateful that there is some diversity


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

3dogs2cats said:


> I tend to agree with you on that Kinjilabs. Why do dogs breed for show purposes have to look different from those that work, they could look the same couldn`t they even if one never gets within a mile of a Bird/sheep etc


But have a look at some old photos, you won't see the heavier show labs in those old photos


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I can't see all the posts for some reason, but I'm sad. Maybe I should feel somewhat trimphant, beause for years I've bleated on about the show working split, and I've listened to the show side. After today, with the encounters from show people from the Labrador world, I couldn't give two hoots about who's sat ringside, will I continue to compete? Hell yes, because I have lovely Labs who are correct, I know that to be the case from a spectator who happens to judge. 

So I'm incredibly sorry, I will remain to be an open sore on the face of the show Labrador world by daring, along with a few long standing select others who I admire and they should bloody well win more often, to show my Labs without them being well padded, or with enough weight to win. They win on their conformation and temperament or not at all!


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

One of my working girls. I know what I prefer...

(Credit to Andy Biggar for this photo)


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> Wouldn't it be nice to not have the "show" versus "working" lines.
> 
> Just the "breed" as it should be, good looking and able to do what its bred for


could'nt agree more ..breeding for exaggeration is wrong whether it's for exaggeration in weight, height, coat , wrinkles, or any other factor - but one extreme that is overlooked and often 'forgiven' time and again is the way that a breeds innate temperament is changed to suit one particular competitive hobby - breeding dogs with exaggerated drives in order to win in the Mondio ring is *JUST* as wrong as breeding dogs with too much coat in order to win in the show ring - of course I'm talking ( yet again ! ) about my own breed which was originally bred to work sheep as this photo of the earliest Laekenois shows :










BSD were used to circle the flocks and needed to be agile and tireless - hobbies such as Agility would seem to me to be far more appropriate as a means of preserving this quality than hanging on to a mans arm whilst a stick is waved frantically around it :wink:

What proponents of the so called 'working' Malinois forget is that this is NOT a separate breed and should be exactly the same as all the other varieties of BSD differing only in it's coat type and colour - they should NOt be changed either physically or mentally to suit the needs of those that take part in ring 'sports'


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

But it was not long after the creation of these breeds that the BSD, particularly the MAlinois, was being bred and trained SPECIFICALLY for use as police dogs was it? About 100 years ago if I remember my breed history correctly. 

So they were considered suitable for this purpose a very long time ago, it is nothing new.

I wonder how many of the show MAlinois would be confident enough to do this today?

Anyone who wants to check, watch the footage of the Malinois in the Group at Crufts this year...................see how confident it is!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> They don't but some will work despite not having a double coat. Contradictory to this, I saw a dog placed first today in their class with a very thick band of VERY wavy hair down their back, the Labrador breed standard calls for a coat that is free or kink or wave.


You can be placed with a fault. Especially if it is a lesser fault then all the other dogs showing have.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Moobli said:


> Old fashioned (and lovely) Rough Collies
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some of the old type are from when the breed was just originating. When I look through the older RC's there are some which look more like todays lines.

In comparing working RC's to show ones from today there appears little difference actually.

There is a member on here who works them daily and they have the same look as a show one, obviously just not brushed up for showing, which they are not day in and day out.

Alfie is from show lines, however the vet has told me his physique is of a working dog as he is mostly all muscle and no excess fat. He loves to walk and run and play all day so he burns off what he eats.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

lennythecloud said:


> Bedlington terrier from 1890:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Found that really interesting, only ever seen show Bedlingtons and to be honest not my cup of tea  I really like those working ones though


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Bijou said:


> BSD were used to circle the flocks and needed to be agile and tireless - hobbies such as Agility would seem to me to be far more appropriate as a means of preserving this quality than hanging on to a mans arm whilst a stick is waved frantically around it :wink:
> 
> What proponents of the so called 'working' Malinois forget is that this is NOT a separate breed and should be exactly the same as all the other varieties of BSD differing only in it's coat type and colour - they should NOt be changed either physically or mentally to suit the needs of those that take part in ring 'sports'


Just like the German Shepherd, the Belgian Shepherd was rather quickly discovered as suitable for police and military work, so I don't consider them to be genuine herding dogs. They weren't particularly good at herding either, since their job wasn't to move the sheep, but to circle the sheep while watching and guarding them. That's why they had strong guarding instincts, which was what made them suitable for police and military work in the first place.

Today there are a lot more Malis that work for the police and the army than there are herding sheep and that wouldn't be the case if they had been the perfect herding dog.

You're right that the varieties _should_ be the same, but it's way too late for that. The Groenendael and the Tervueren are to beautiful for their own good and have been ruined by show breeding a long time ago. The Mali (and probably the Laekenois, since they are so rare) haven't been ruined completely yet, thank goodness.

I'm not a fan of ringsports and don't do any kind of schutzhund or ringsport with mine, but that is not what's changing the breed; it's what preserves it.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> But it was not long after the creation of these breeds that the BSD, particularly the MAlinois, was being bred and trained SPECIFICALLY for use as police dogs was it? About 100 years ago if I remember my breed history correctly.
> 
> So they were considered suitable for this purpose a very long time ago, it is nothing new.
> 
> ...


In Sweden, Malis a very rare at dog shows and most Malis are bred for work, so I watched some footage from Cruft's on you tube and was shocked  That is *not* the way the breed should move or behave. I seriuosly doubt that any of those dogs would be of any use to the police _or_ with herding sheep.

I also wonder why they think it necessary that tehy look like Tervs? They are supposed to be the short haired variety, but those dogs are not short haired, more like semi-long haired (probably looks something like the Tervs did in the beginning).


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> You can be placed with a fault. Especially if it is a lesser fault then all the other dogs showing have.


Interestingly, in contrast to the breed standard - having attended a breed seminar, that "wave" indicates a good quality coat. If you simply brush the dog before going in the ring, the "wave" disappears.

A dog has 40 conformational points (39 for bitches) plus balance and angulation.

A good coat will leave tramlines if you do a reverse finger drag along the dog's side - the coat should also be double, dense and coarse to touch.

The dog is assessed from nose to tail - top and bottom and everything inbetween (and correctly descended testicles in males) - the judge will look at, amongst other things, the dogs head and expression (including eye colour), dentition - in the UK this is generally that the bite is correct - on the continent, they count teeth, stop, ears, pasterns, reach of neck, length and layback of shoulder, top-line, spring of rib, front and rear angulation, coupling, croup and tail-set, a correct tail, underline, and movement from the front, back and side.

If you have a number of dogs in front of you all with similarly good qualities then subjective preference is somewhat inevitable.

A nicely assembled balanced labrador is just that - its substance is secondary IMHO.

There are few dogs who will be completely flawless (although I can think of quite a few of late who are) - others will have minor faults - and then it comes down to how the judge deems the significance of that / those fault(s).

I used to show my first home-bred girl - she didn't have the substance of many other dogs in the ring (but was still surprisingly my heaviest dog - even against my boys - and she bodied up nicely after her litter)

She was a super powerful mover who did well under some all-rounder judges with some nice results, but she had faults, and two in particular I know were seldom, if ever, missed under breed specialists.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

What an interesting debate, first of all. Really enjoyed reading many of the replies. 
I agree with this, particularly the bolded bit:



rocco33 said:


> It does depend on breed, some have a wider gap than others, but personally, I find show dogs overdone - yes, they may adhere to the breed standard, but the points in the breed standard have been exaggerated, sometimes to extreme. There is nothing in the breed standard that says how much substance a dog needs, or how wide its skull should be.
> 
> I have also attended breed seminars and the labs we had to go over were IMO, too heavy - not necessarily fat, but just too heavy, large, blocky heads (and my pet hate) droopy eyelids.
> 
> ...


It is certainly true for Flatcoats that there are some dogs that are doing well predominantly in the show ring, that are very exaggerated. Bigger, broader and much more coat than some of the more traditional-looking dogs. It is also well-known that some judges prefer a certain look and if your dog doesn't conform to this, you will not get placed. So one judge might think your dog is the bee's knees and the next might find it completely unappealing.

However, I do not need to be a breed expert to tell if a dog is fat or not. The vast majority of Labradors (I would guess 70-80%) that I have encountered at the shows I have attended have been overweight. Yes, there have also been some really lovely-looking dogs there, but a lot were fat. It is also interesting that the vast majority of people that have posted on here agree that this is indeed the case. There might just be a grain of truth in it.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

swarthy said:


> A good coat will leave tramlines if you do a reverse finger drag along the dog's side - the coat should also be double, dense and coarse to touch.


I seem to have a thing about dogs with incorrect coats lol. Spens is soft and silky.

Stupid question time, how do you tell if they have a double coat


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I seem to have a thing about dogs with incorrect coats lol. Spens is soft and silky.
> 
> Stupid question time, how do you tell if they have a double coat


They have an undercoat that is soft and "fluffy" (for want of a better word) and a top coat that is coarser.
But I am sure Swarthy can you tell you much more.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Personally I think my working bred cross-breed spaniel is beautiful and I coudn't ask for any more in a dog. Working ability (which is basically un-tested in him, though his sister is doing well as an actual working dog) aside the way he moves through the undergrowth and over rough ground is astounding- which suggests to me his conformation is fit for purpose. He has a light coat which means he doesn't over-heat with all the running around and although he has been prone to getting cold that seems to have resolved a good deal now I've managed to get a tiny bit more weight on him than in this picture where he is a little under-weight.

I can't fathom why "show" springers and cockers look so different and have such heavy coats - if the breed standard or interpretation of breed standard calls for them to be so different from dogs out there who are being bred because they are successful at their jobs then the breed standard or intepretation of breed standard is at fault in my view.

I'd love to take Oscar to a show for a laugh. :lol:


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## Beau-a-saurus (Jan 26, 2011)

lotlot said:


> I'm glad you posted about bedlingtons
> 
> I have a working line bedlington and people seem to think he's a cross. Temperament wise the lines are very different too! I love the working lines  they're brilliant little terriers


Another working type Beddie fan here :001_tt1: gorgeous dogs and surprisingly easy for a working type terrier, mine is very happy as a town hound and given a good play and medium to low energy walks is a very chilled little fellow - sleeping on his fav chair as I type and not moved a muscle for over an hour.

Bit scruffy but here are some recent pics


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Well reading through this has answered a question I have been pondering for ages. When I got Abi,from the Czech Republic, the breeders mainly showed and bred Border Collies but they were like big bundles of fluff and I had never seen BC's like that. Obviously I don't see many Show BC's. Will add a couple of pics but they are not 'posed', just ones we took or of Abi as a pup with puppy BC's.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Luz said:


> Well reading through this has answered a question I have been pondering for ages. When I got Abi,from the Czech Republic, the breeders mainly showed and bred Border Collies but they were like big bundles of fluff and I had never seen BC's like that. Obviously I don't see many Show BC's. Will add a couple of pics but they are not 'posed', just ones we took or of Abi as a pup with puppy BC's.


Are you sure those are BC:s? In the last picture they look more like Australian Shepherds to me. The grown up dog seems to have no tail, as does some of the pups and one of them seem to have a half long tail. Especially the adult dog looks like an Aussie to me. In the first two pictures the puppies look like BC:s, though.


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Vicki said:


> Are you sure those are BC:s? In the last picture they look more like Australian Shepherds to me. The grown up dog seems to have no tail, as does some of the pups and one of them seem to have a half long tail. Especially the adult dog looks like an Aussie to me. In the first two pictures the puppies look like BC:s, though.


:lol::lol: Thanks that has really cleared it up! Just checked the website. The daughter breeds BC's and Australian Shepherds, the Mum Australian Cattle Dogs and PK's. Thats why it didn't look like a BC that I'd ever seen!


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

There are a number of breeds that no longer have "working" lines but I love to see more athletic versions that move away from the show lines. 

As an example, a breed that is close to my heart, the bull terrier , the show dog is a very large and heavy looking animal, I much prefer a leaner and fitter looking bullie.

Or another example, the British bull dog, I would be quite happy to see a split in the breed with a group of non show breeders moving the dog to a much fitter dog that could potentially be used for its original purpose.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Spud the Bull Terrier said:


> There are a number of breeds that no longer have "working" lines but I love to see more athletic versions that move away from the show lines.
> 
> As an example, a breed that is close to my heart, the bull terrier , the show dog is a very large and heavy looking animal, I much prefer a leaner and fitter looking bullie.
> 
> Or another example, the British bull dog, I would be quite happy to see a split in the breed with a group of non show breeders moving the dog to a much fitter dog that could potentially be used for its original purpose.


There's a few people breeding more athletic Bull Terriers: Thunder Rock kennels are breeding an "old tyme" variety. Can't find their website but this is one of their bitches:
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll284/thunder-rock/IMG_9368.jpg 
Beautiful!

The amount of performance-bred Bulldog breeds is incredible. Some are recreations like the Olde English, Dorset Old Tyme, Leavitt and Victorian Bulldogs, some are new like the Renascence and Sussex Bulldogs. A lot of them look similar but all a bit different!

I don't think the current English Bulldog can be reverted into a performance dog without outcrossing, I'd like to see them move towards the Victorian Bulldog or Olde English Bulldogge standard.

OEB:
http://www.oldeenglishbulldoggekennelclub.com/resources/1/dogs/Deco.jpg

Victorian:
http://labvet.biz/wp-content/uploads/victorian-bulldogalfiepic.jpg

American Bulldogs are still being used for hog hunting (catch dogs), schutzhund and other manwork, weight pull etc, and there was a lovely Ambull bitch doing agility at Discover dogs


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

That bull terrier is STUNNING!


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

I met a young 'old tyme' bull terrier at game fair a few years back, stunning dog from a stunning litter 

Some of the 'working' staffords and Irish staffs I've seen at ACES days are incredible. Great all-rounders too, pets, sports, hunting, showing, the whole package - must dig out some links


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Thorne said:


> There's a few people breeding more athletic Bull Terriers: Thunder Rock kennels are breeding an "old tyme" variety. Can't find their website but this is one of their bitches:
> http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll284/thunder-rock/IMG_9368.jpg
> Beautiful!


She is gorgeous!! :001_tt1:

Although I'm fairly new to the breed it does seem that there isn't much of a difference between whippets used for showing and pure bred whippets that are used for working, racing or lure coursing. I _think_ there have been some whippets who have been successful both in the show ring and lure coursing, I could be wrong on that though.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> You're right that the varieties should be the same, but it's way too late for that. The Groenendael and the Tervueren are to beautiful for their own good and have been ruined by show breeding a long time ago.


..and they've been ruined how ? - because they don't take part in a certain esoteric kind of dog sport ? - why is that your ONLY definition of value ?

Pups that I have bred have gone on to be SAR dogs, Agility and obedience dogs Therapy dogs and Assistance dogs - as well as being of correct enough type to win in the show ring - how exactly have breeders such as myself 'ruined ' the Groenendael and Tervueren ? -

You're right that BSD were used early on by the Police and Military but I could argue that they were show dogs before they ere police dogs -( in 1891 the first gathering of BSD was held to determine the Standard for the breed ) does this then make it right to change them to fit the show ring ? - no of course not ! - a change of use should NOT mean losing the essentials of the breed and especially when it's just to win in competition - and that's what ring sports are it is inexcusable to change the Malinois temperament in order to enable owners to have greater success in a sport the breed was never originally intended to do !



> I also wonder why they think it necessary that tehy look like Tervs? They are supposed to be the short haired variety, but those dogs are not short haired, more like semi-long haired (probably looks something like the Tervs did in the beginning).


What rubbish ! - here is the top winning Malinois in the UK at present ( and the dog that won
BOB at Crufts last year so is presumably the one you saw )



















He is a perfect example of his variety - with absoloutely the correct coat for a Malinois !


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> And of course Goldmali have a puppy from a Jotunheim sire now in their kennel.


yep I saw this youngster at the Weekend - a nice wee girl who was going through the typical BSD wary stage - and does'nt the fact that Marianne used the Jotunheim stud dog simply underline my point that there SHOULD be no working split in the breed ? - the available gene pool is simply too small to reduce it further by such nonsense ! - hats off to her and other so called 'show kennels' who cast their nets wider - if only the working world would also open their minds to using lines outside of their very small closed world !.

a few years ago I went to help choose a bitch puppy for a friend who needed to bring in other lines to her breeding programme We went to the Iles Des Sud Kennels in France 
Elevage de Bergers Belges Malinois des Iles du Sud 
this kennel produces truly versatile Malinois who can turn their paw to any canine field - the bitch we brought over carries these new lines and will be a valuable asset here in the UK -( she's also just become UK Show Champion ) - they use a combination of show and working blood lines with great success.

Is this not the way all BSD should be bred ?

How is that 'ruining' the breed ?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Bijou said:


> Is this not the way all BSD should be bred ?


Why would anyone who wanted to work their dogs put a dog from a non working line into their breeding programme?

That would be a complete waste of time.

You see working lines have something to offer the show lines, but the reverse is not true.

The only thing that can occur if you put a show/pet line into a working line is to weaken the working ability.

It would be totally pointless at best and detrimental at worst.

I am not sure why you think that minds are closed in the working world anymore than the show world have closed minds and continually make sweeping generalisations of the detrimental kind to those that breed for a specific function (rather than just to totter about a show ring)

It is not about opening minds, it is about breeding something that is "fit for function" as the KC would say.

The dog that cowered in the show ring, stepped back and put its tail between its leg in the group at Crufts is hardly an advertisement for the breed is it? 

There is a work/show split in Labradors, ESS, CS, GSD, BSD and a few more which occurs predominantly in this country because, unlike the Continent, no dog has to pass any type of working test, unlike say Weimaraners, GSD and others in their country of birth.

If you do not actively SELECT for working ability, it will be lost, THAT is why it is detrimental to the breed.

So nobody in their right mind is going to import NON working ability into their breeding programmes if the purpose of those breeding programmes is to create a dog which is FIT FOR PURPOSE.

Which BSD breeder is actively breeding to retain the original working qualities by eg testing for Natural Aptitude and only breeding from these animals?

No good going ON and ON about the PAST and what your breed was originally bred for if it a) now no longer fulfils that function and b) is no longer tested to see if it can.

In the gundog world the title of Ch is only applied to those Sh Ch who have demonstrated working ability, perhaps it is time the same was applied to other breeds eg the BSD?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> In the gundog world the title of Ch is only applied to those Sh Ch who have demonstrated working ability, perhaps it is time the same was applied to other breeds eg the BSD?


True, although even this is pretty basic. There are a few show dogs that have awards at Novice Trial level, but again, this is not a particularly difficult thing to achieve (apart from the difficulty in getting runs and trialling is the most unpredictable sport that I know where luck plays a huge part), but as far as I'm aware there are no show bred dogs that have won an award at open level.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Smokey you keep making the same mistake over and over again - how are ring sports the ONLY definition of working ability ? - it's what *you* may choose to do but it most certainly does not encompass all the ways the breed can work .....

You talk about working lines " having something to offer show breeders" but that's patently not true if those show breeders only concern was to win in the ring - the fact that they are prepared to look at the whole picture speaks volumes about their commitment to the breed rather than simply being succesful at their hobby



> Why would anyone who wanted to work their dogs put a dog from a non working line into their breeding programme?
> 
> That would be a complete waste of time.


..and that's the mind set that breeds exaggeration !- if you never move away from the small 'working' gene pool you simply end up with dogs that are hypertypical ..we condemn it when it happens in the show world - why is it right for other kinds of canine activities ?

....I find it very sad that you consider being succesful in a dog sport a valid reason to keep the working Malinois gene pool closed


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> True, although even this is pretty basic. There are a few show dogs that have awards at Novice Trial level, but again, this is not a particularly difficult thing to achieve (apart from the difficulty in getting runs and trialling is the most unpredictable sport that I know where luck plays a huge part), but as far as I'm aware there are no show bred dogs that have won an award at open level.


At Crufts, there is a class for the Flatcoats for dogs that are Field Trial Champions. This year, there was one dog entered. Just one.
Mind you, what a stunner he was.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ..and they've been ruined how ? - because they don't take part in a certain esoteric kind of dog sport ? - why is that your ONLY definition of value ?
> 
> Pups that I have bred have gone on to be SAR dogs, Agility and obedience dogs Therapy dogs and Assistance dogs - as well as being of correct enough type to win in the show ring - how exactly have breeders such as myself 'ruined ' the Groenendael and Tervueren ? -
> 
> ...


The Tervueren and the Groenendael have not been ruined because they don't participate in ringsports, but because breeders have been too focused on looks and not mentality. That's why they are shy and fearful and lacks some breed specific traits.

In Sweden, where I live, we have been testing dog's mentalities for many years now. First you do a description of the dogs mentality when it's young (preferably when it's 12-18 months) and with some breeds (working breeds) you can do a mental test, in which the dog gets points and is approved or not (the description is just a description, you don't get approved). The result's from these descriptions are official so you can look up any dog you like online to see their results. Breeds that have many described dogs also have a diagram to show the breeds average.

And looking at those diagrams you can see that there are great differences between the Terv and the Groenen compared to the Mali. Unfortunately I couldn't find better pictures, but I don't know how much good it will do (because I don't think you can read Swedish?)

This is the diagram for the Terv.








And the Gronenen








And the Mali









Starting at "twelve o'clock" on the diagram are the results for sociality and you can see that the Mali is the most sociable and the Groenen the least (they have a very low score on this). The next section (from about one o'clock to four o'clock) is the result for playfulness, in which one can see that the Mali is a lot more playful than Tervs and Groenens. In the next section (from four o'clock to five o'clock) is the result for prey drive/lust to chase after things and grab them, and the Malis result is still a lot better.

The next section (between five and six o'clock) is the result for interest in what's happening on the test course and there are no big differences there. But in the next section (between six and seven o'clock) are the results for curiousity, which means to have an interest to examine things that has previously scared the dog) and here the Mali's results is a lot better than the others. The next section (between seven-seven thirty) is the Malis real weakness, to be passive and the Terv and the Groenen are a lot better at being passive when nothing is happening.

The next section (between seven thirty-eight) is a real important one, since it's a trait that is highly hereditary. Four shots are fired, two while the dog is active and two while the dog is passive, and the dogs reactions is measured. And the Mali has a lot less reaction to shots than the others. The next section (between eight to ten o'clock) is the results for fear and here it's clear that the Mali and the Terv doesn't have as much fears as the Groenen, although the Terv is a little more fearful than the Mali.

The last section (between ten and twelve o'clock) is the result for the dogs ability to become aggressive when threatened and it's clear that the Mali has a better result than the others, especially the Groenen, which have a very poor score on this. (One might think that aggression is something bad, but it isn't because it's gives the dog a way to handle a threatening situation; fleeing gives the dog anxiety because it has no way of controlling what's happening).

This diagrams have been made out of thousends of described dogs, so there's no chance that one bad dog could have made the results look bad.

That was not the dog I saw, or maybe he was one of them. A couple of the dogs a saw in the you tube clip actually had a plum on the tail. However, this dog doesn't really look like a perfect Mali to me, even though his coat is correct. His stance isn't right and in the picture where his moving it's clear that he doesn't move the way a Mali should. But he moves a lot like show bred Tervs does.

I didn't mean that todays show Malis look like todays show Tervs, but more like how Tervs used to look about a 100 years ago, before they got those long and thick coats (that absolutely aren't functional for herding).


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Bijou said:


> Smokey you keep making the same mistake over and over again - how are ring sports the ONLY definition of working ability ? -


I don't know about smokeybear, but my opinion isn't that ringsports are the only definition of working ability. In my opinion, working ability for a Mali is to be able to work for the police and military. There are some traits that are necessary for that kind of work; it's not a job for any dog, I think we all can agree on that. In order to perserve those traits it's necessary to have working tests, and in the Malis case it is Schutzhund, ringsports and tracking that test those traits and abilities best.

As I mentioned before, I'm not interested in schutzhund and ringsports as a hobby. I do other things that I find more fun with my Mali. But I still think it's important that the traits, that her breeder have tried to preserve in order to breed dog suitable for for example policework, so I have done the mental description, the mental test (which she passed with a very good score) and I've tried Schutzhundtraining so her breeder could see her abilities for himself. Had we only done agility, he would have no idea what traits necessary for work (i e police and military work) she has and therefore wouldn't have a clue wether he should continue to breed these lines or not.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Vicki said:


> The Tervueren and the Groenendael have been ruined because they don't participate in ringsports, but because breeders have been too focused on looks and not mentality. That's why they are shy and fearful and lacks some breed specific traits.
> 
> In Sweden, where I live, we have been testing dog's mentalities for many years now. First you do a description of the dogs mentality when it's young (preferably when it's 12-18 months) and with some breeds (working breeds) you can do a mental test, in which the dog gets points and is approved or not (the description is just a description, you don't get approved). The result's from these descriptions are official so you can look up any dog you like online to see their results. Breeds that have many described dogs also have a diagram to show the breeds average.
> 
> ...


Thanks for describing all those test results Vicki, very interesting indeed. I wish the same tests would be applied in the UK to all breeding stock.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Moobli said:


> Thanks for describing all those test results Vicki, very interesting indeed. I wish the same tests would be applied in the UK to all breeding stock.


Yes, I think that would be very good, too. These tests have shown to be very valuable for breeding. (In fact, I've sometimes toyed with the idea of moving to the UK to try to work as a dog trainer and also to try to establish the mental description tests, but I guess it's just a fantasy )


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Don't know if anyone caught the bit on countryfile this week with the army dog training facility, all the dogs (not surprisingly) looked working rather than show bred. The labs all seemed like the lighter working type much maligned by the show breeders, the army has no interest in breed politics so it surely proves that that type is extremely functional, more so than the heavier show bred dogs?

Starts from 15:45: BBC iPlayer - Countryfile: Leicestershire


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

The English Setters have a real difference between them! I always prefer the show lines, though - the coat and head are much more elegant.

Working (also known as Llewellin lines, mostly seen in the States)














































Show (also known as Laverack, mostly seen in the UK)


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Those English are beautiful! I do prefer the show type to the working type though, they are much more elegant looking. The 3rd picture of the working dog looks like a Brittany Spaniel with those ears!


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

Tigerneko said:


> The 3rd picture of the working dog looks like a Brittany Spaniel with those ears!


It really does! They were bred from what was called a Setting Spaniel in the 1800s by Laverack, and then Llewellin diverged from the Laverack lines so I'm not surprised by the similarity.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Pezant said:


> It really does! They were bred from what was called a Setting Spaniel in the 1800s by Laverack, and then Llewellin diverged from the Laverack lines so I'm not surprised by the similarity.


ahh so that's possibly why  that's one thing I do like about working dogs - you can almost see their ancestry just by looking at them, they are much more 'raw' than show types. I saw a Llewellin Setter on Dogsblog a few months ago and I wondered what they were on about, I thought it was some sort of designer dog :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

Tigerneko said:


> ahh so that's possibly why  that's one thing I do like about working dogs - you can almost see their ancestry just by looking at them, they are much more 'raw' than show types. I saw a Llewellin Setter on Dogsblog a few months ago and I wondered what they were on about, I thought it was some sort of designer dog :lol: :lol: :lol:


:lol: Not quite! English Setters are expensive enough as it is without them becoming a designer dog!  I wouldn't be surprised if the poster had been American though - they seem much more inclined to call them Llewellin Setters for some reason.

eta; Just found the posts on Dogsblog. Not American (oops) but definitely the working line type!


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Beautiful English Setters, but I prefer the working type to the show, although the show types are undoubtedly very elegant and flashy looking.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Moobli said:


> Beautiful English Setters, but I prefer the working type to the show, although the show types are undoubtedly very elegant and flashy looking.


Same, much prefer the working type.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

They do look very different dogs though  again prefer the working lines, they do just look more honest to goodness able dogs


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> True, although even this is pretty basic. There are a few show dogs that have awards at Novice Trial level, but again, this is not a particularly difficult thing to achieve (apart from the difficulty in getting runs and trialling is the most unpredictable sport that I know where luck plays a huge part), but as far as I'm aware there are no show bred dogs that have won an award at open level.


There are a handful of half/half dogs that occasionally get in the awards for opens, and I'm sure Leospring Mars Marine won an open stake, but he wasn't entirely showbred either.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> The Tervueren and the Groenendael have not been ruined because they don't participate in ringsports, but because breeders have been too focused on looks and not mentality. That's why they are shy and fearful and lacks some breed specific traits.


[/QUOTE]

really ?? ...perhaps you'ld like to explain to some of your most experienced fellow countrymen and woman how they have 'ruined' the breed !

*Pål Annerström Tracking and obedience on the highest level, search on a high level with Tervueren.
Frederik M. Balster-Philips van Buren Has trained both Tervueren and Groenendael for epileptic work. 
Madeleine Gamble Educated dog psychologist. Has herding as the main thing, but also does tracking, article scenting, a little agility and service (help at home). 
Margaretha Geveld Highest level in tracking and obedience, has passed the herding test with Tervueren, working dog for the civil military defence, tested for blood track, and conformation. 
Leif och Åsa Granlund kennel Hexen House. Has competed on a high level in obedience and search, and on the highest level (Elite) tracking with Tervueren. 
Bo Gustavsson och Titti Karlsson Tiboz kennel. Has trained rapport and schutzhund, competing in Elite tracking and in search & rescue on Championship level. Instructor and judge. 
Liselott Hansson Somollis kennel. Is herding mostly with Border Collie but also with Malinois. 
Anders Håkansson Swedish Master in rapport 97 & 98 with Tervueren. 
Carina Holström IPO with Laekenois. 
Janne och Sanna Lagerman Obedience and tracking with Groenendael. 
Gun Karlsson Salltorps kennel. Tervueren. 
Maggan Lilja kennel Team Draco's. Schutzhund, tracking and search on a high level, now competing in obedience (III) with Tervueren which is also tested to become rescue dog. Competing in Elite obedience with another Tervueren, which is also tested for police work, mentality tested and working dog. Trial secretary (SBK), raised with German Shepherds. Also shows with her three dogs at exhibitions. 
Mikael Magnerholt Competing in obedience class II with Tervueren and is help-handler in rapport with a Laekenois. 
Maria Magnusson Tracking, obedience, agility, conformation and sleigh dog with Groenendael. Competition secretary within the Swedish Working Dog Club (SBK). Also experience in Alaskan Malamute (sleigh dog and obedience). 
Carl Erik Meier & Charlotte Stewart kennel Chacami, Denmark. Obedience, tracking, search, agility, conformation and breeding of Tervueren. Also experience in German Shepherd, Golden Retriever, Labrador and Rottweiler. Synnöve Rask Rapport on Championship level, also Elite tracking. Experience in all four Belgians. 
Linnéa Sekobon kennel Vajert. Tracking, search and obedience. Working dog for the civil military defence and agility with Laekenois, but also experience of the other Belgian Shepherds. 
Åsa Sjöberg Obedience class III and tracking on a high level with Groenendael. Also experience of Sheltie (Elite obedience). 
Kenth Svartberg Etolog, herding with Tervueren and Border Collie, competing in obedience, working and agility. 
Mary Theriot USA. Herding, obedience, agility, tracking, search and rescue. Is training Belgians for film- and TV-productions. 
Mona Thorsen Nightrunner's kennel. Tracking and obedience on the highest level with Tervueren and Groenendael. 
Carina Tolge-Bergkvist kennel Mahagonny. Has competed in obedience class III, tracking and rapport with Tervueren. Has bred both conformation and performance Champions. 
Sten Åhlstad Search, tracking and obedience on the highest level (Elite), schutzhund, rescue and working dog for the civil military defence with Tervueren and Groenendael. Also experience with German Shepherd.*

.I am assuming that all these high achieving Swedish owned Groenendael Laekenois and Tervueren will also have scored highly in the Swedish mentality tests ...or are they all just 'flukes ' !!!



> That was not the dog I saw, or maybe he was one of them. A couple of the dogs a saw in the you tube clip actually had a plum on the tail. However, this dog doesn't really look like a perfect Mali to me, even though his coat is correct. His stance isn't right and in the picture where his moving *it's clear that he doesn't move the way a Mali should. But he moves a lot like show bred Tervs does. *


umm...what does this mean ? - a BSD should move like a BSD - indeed it's moderate angulation must mean that it moves differently from a GSD !



> I didn't mean that todays show Malis look like todays show Tervs, but more like how Tervs used to look about a 100 years ago, before they got those long and thick coats (that absolutely aren't functional for herding).


again ...really ??? - here's one of the earliest Tervueren








*Resada De La Foret De Soigne* born in 1912

not so very different to the present day version !


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

swarthy said:


> *People rarely think like that unless a dog is VERY skinny.
> 
> What seems to escape people over and over again is that there is a significant difference between substance and fat.*
> ALL my dogs are moderate - middle of the road - and the hypocrisy I've witnessed here when the evidence to the contrary is trawled across many websites is hysterical :lol:
> ...


Im not sure if I should be insulted by that comment I have bolded or not. You are basically saying that the only reason I got told by two separate unconnected people at this show that my dog needs weight on is because she is TOO skinny?
We basically arrived, unloaded the girls and got told by one person, who phrased it shall i give you some helpful advice you need to get a lot more weight on those dogs if you want to do well in the show ring.
Then in the ring I got asked by someone completely different if i had turned up actually expecting to win, because there was no way I was going to do so with my pup she wasnt carrying enough weight. I then got told because she is raw fed she will never i quote carry enough substance to win in the show ring as all raw fed dogs are muscular and very rarely carry the weight a successful show labs needs.
Like i say there are show stunning dogs in the ring, there was a yellow dog I would have happily taken home, a chocolate pup which was lovely and 2 chocolate bitches I liked, oh and a black bitch. And the yellow dog was the field trial winner entrant (forgot the name of the actual class)
Swarthy I arent saying your dogs or the other chocolate boy posted are fat, I am just saying bearing in mind today was my first step into the show world, with a dog I admit is only 2/3 show bred (and to clear up any confusion she is NOT from sleeping_lions litter) who was literally 6 months old on Sunday I got told twice by 2 different people that my dog was not carrying enough weight. And apparently it is not an excuse that she is gangly I should always make sure she has weight on her.
And that was the phrasing, carrying enough weight. If they had said she was not chunky enough, didnt have the right bone structure etc than I would understand, however having had 2 people look at her independently (one of whom judges gun dog breeds) and say she has a good conformation and good movement but to also have them tell me unless I put weight on her she wont win then I have to draw the conclusion that there are some people sticking extra weight on their dogs to win in the show ring, and to be fair as someone new to showing and to the breed it doesnt half put you off, I dont want to have to bulk my dog up for her to win, so we shall keep showing and keep loosing I guess.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

shamykebab said:


> There are a handful of half/half dogs that occasionally get in the awards for opens, and I'm sure Leospring Mars Marine won an open stake, but he wasn't entirely showbred either.


I'm pretty sure Charway Summerain has also won open awards, but again, three quarters trial bred - a quarter show bred.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

really ?? ...perhaps you'ld like to explain to some of your most experienced fellow countrymen and woman how they have 'ruined' the breed !
*
Anders Håkansson Swedish Master in rapport 97 & 98 with Tervueren. 
Carina Holström IPO with Laekenois. 
Kenth Svartberg Etolog, herding with Tervueren and Border Collie, competing in obedience, working and agility. 
*

.I am assuming that all these high achieving Swedish owned Groenendael Laekenois and Tervueren will also have scored highly in the Swedish mentality tests ...or are they all just 'flukes ' !!!
[/QUOTE]

Obviously you don't have much knowledge about the way we compete in Sweden. For example, Obedience class II is not something I'd refer to as a merit in any way (unless we're talking about breeds that are not so cooperative, in which case it can be an achievement). Competing in the highest class is definitely an achievement, but a lot of people with lots of other breeds (some not even working dogs) also achieves that. A champion title (a WORKING champion title!), however, is really an achievement and any dog/handler that gets it has done a good job. Of course there are a few Tervs and Groenens that have working champion titles and well done to them (however, more Malis have working champion titles, even though they are fewer in number). A few Tervs (and even fewer Groenen) have participated in the Swedish Championship and that is also an achievement. Though, they are not many.

This year there were 7 Malis in IPO, no other BSD:s, 2 Malis in rapport (messenger dog), no other BSD:s, 10 Malis in Schutzhund, no other BSD:s, 3 Malis in search, no other BSD:s and 4 Malis and 2 Tervs in tracking (out of 95 dogs in total there were 36 Malis, 2 Tervs 0 Groenendael and 0 Laekenois)

Of the people you listed above I only want to comment on these. Anders Håkanssons result in the Swedish Championship was an achievement and definitively not a fluke. Kogaråsen's Falco was a good dog even though he was show bred. However, those results were a long time ago and Anders Håkansson haven't repeated it with any other dog (whatever the reason for that may be).

I have no idea who Carina Holström is and she's probably not been in any championship, but I think it's great that someone is working with laekenois at all. They are not so popular for work or show, so it's great that someone cares about the breed enough to work with it.

Kenth Svarberg is one of my role models when it comes to dogs. He's very competent when it comes to etology and it's great that someone does research about dogs and dogs mentality. I have all the books he's written about dogs mentality and the relationship between man and dog and they're great. I've met him once, too, at a weekend workshop about the relationship between human and dog and he really knows what he's talking about. He also has very good results in many dog sports (tracking, obedience, agility). With his Terv, however, he only did compete in agility with any successful results (most of his results in competitions are with his border collies and he's only had one BSD).

Not that many Tervs and Groenen have done very well in the mental tests, put a lot of them have done the mental descriptions (which are descriptions, not tests, so you don't pass them or not) and what's a good result is a little up to the individual owner/breeder to decide (so there are probably a lot of owners/breeders that claim a good result when in fact it's not so good) and what's considered good for a poodle is not necessarily good for a German Shepherd. Having scored good in the mental descriptions hasn't got that much to do with competition results, since that is a result of training (which mental traits are not; they're genetic).


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> I got told twice by 2 different people that my dog was not carrying enough weight. And apparently it is not an excuse that she is gangly I should always make sure she has weight on her.
> And that was the phrasing, carrying enough weight. If they had said she was not chunky enough, didnt have the right bone structure etc than I would understand, however having had 2 people look at her independently (one of whom judges gun dog breeds) and say she has a good conformation and good movement but to also have them tell me unless I put weight on her she wont win then I have to draw the conclusion that there are some people sticking extra weight on their dogs to win in the show ring, and to be fair as someone new to showing and to the breed it doesnt half put you off, I dont want to have to bulk my dog up for her to win, so we shall keep showing and keep loosing I guess.


I share much the same point of view! Plenty of good, genuinely substantial show Labs around not carrying extra fat but equally there are people over-feeding to help their dog achieve the same look.

Not a good attitude to have is it really, putting extra weight on immature bones and joints to comply with "what wins".


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## Linden_Tree (Jan 6, 2011)

Out of curiosity, does anyone believe/find there is a difference between 'true' working dogs, and dogs that compete in working trials?

I guess more in regards to ability as opposed to looks.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Linden_Tree said:


> Out of curiosity, does anyone believe/find there is a difference between 'true' working dogs, and dogs that compete in working trials?
> 
> I guess more in regards to ability as opposed to looks.


I can only talk about gundogs, but yes, there is a difference between working dogs and those that compete in field trials. There is some overlap, particularly at novice level, but 'working' dogs can vary considerably in both ability and training  . A working dog taken rough shooting or with a small shoot does not need the same level of ability (and training) than one that goes on a commercial shoot. The ground the shoot uses will also have a bearing and can vary quite widely depending on where in the country you are. Trialling dog are at the top of this, and although some are not worked as much as a typical working dog, this has more to do with not wishing to erode the training rather than anything else.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Linden_Tree said:


> Out of curiosity, does anyone believe/find there is a difference between 'true' working dogs, and dogs that compete in working trials?
> 
> I guess more in regards to ability as opposed to looks.


Yes, I believe that there is a difference between working line dogs and working dogs. My dog is working line because of her parentage, not her results (which she doesn't have- yet). Her pedigree is full of working champions (some of them in multiple dog sports) and police dogs. Her mother is Swedish working champion in schutzhund and competed in the highest class in tracking and search, competed in Obedience class II, passed the mental test and the police dog test _and_ is show champion as well. My dogs half siblings, a litter of seven, have all passed the police dog test, and from her litter of nine five (or six) have passed the police dog test. My dog didn't take that test and two of her sister's didn't pass, but both of those who didn't pass are competing in the highest class in tracking and obedience.
In her pedigree there's not a single dog that _only_ has show results.

Show bred dogs have a pedigree of mostly show results, with the occasional work result as well. Show bred (and pet bred) dogs can't participate in working tests and sometimes get good results, but that doesn't make them working line, because they don't have working lines.

It's the pedigree that decides wheter a dog is working line or not.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Linden_Tree said:


> Out of curiosity, does anyone believe/find there is a difference between 'true' working dogs, and dogs that compete in working trials?
> 
> I guess more in regards to ability as opposed to looks.


Before responding I would like to know what you mean by "Working Trials"?

Ie do you mean the discipline of Working Trials as in the UK or dogs that compete in various working "trials" ie in various disciplines.?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Bijou said:


> Smokey you keep making the same mistake over and over again - how are ring sports the ONLY definition of working ability ? - it's what *you* may choose to do but it most certainly does not encompass all the ways the breed can work .....
> 
> *Er no I do not, if you read my posts I mentioned
> 
> ...


Where have I made this statement?

I have never mentioned that I ant to keep the working Malinois gene pool closed.

there are PLENTY of lines around the world to make this entirely unecessary.

I quite agree, the mindset that breeds exaggeration not only in the breed but in inaccurate, incorrect posts stating that other posters have said things that they have not.

If the Show/pet breeders produce such fantastic stock, WHY ARE THEY NOT WINNING AT:

Obedience
Working Trials
Schutzhund
Mondioring

etc?


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

because they have zero interest in competing in those *hobbies* ?

...I could equally argue that if the so called working lines are so fantastic why are they not winning in conformation ? - you do what you wnat to do in your hobbies ...and I 'll concentrate on the things I'm interested in but don't get confused that any of it is real work !

Shutzhund, Obedience, Agility, Showing and Working Trials are NOT work - My Groeny bitch works 3 days a week as a therapy dog for some of the autistic kids I teach - personally I consider this a truer expression of 'work' than any success in a competitive hobby !


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Bijou said:


> because they have zero interest in competing in those hobbies
> 
> ...I could equally argue that if the so called working lines are so fantastic why are they not winning in conformation ? - you do what you wnat to do in your hobbies ...and I 'll concentrate on the things I'm interested in but don't get confused that any of it is real work !


Because they have no interest in that particular hobby? Frankly, it's boring and not much of an accomplishment to be able to run a few laps and stand still, in my opinion.

But still, working lines can win in conformation. My dogs mother, as I mentioned before is Swedish working champion in schutzhund and competed in the highest class in tracking, search and Obedience class II when she was young, sha has passed the mental test and passed the police dog test *and* is show champion as well. My dog has been to one dog show and got an Excellent (with which I'm satisfied; I'm not going to show her again even if she probably could become a champion).

She also passed her examination, which is a part of the mental test (if the dog passes both the mental test and a thorough physical examination (much more thorough than the examination in a dog show it gets a title, which mine now has since she passed both). Most of her siblings and half siblings are police dogs and I can't find any show results for them (they probably don't have the time or interest to go to dog shows), but many of them have passed the physical examination as well as the mental test). So Malis have both brains and beauty.



Bijou said:


> Shutzhund, Obedience, Agility, Showing and Working Trials are NOT work - My Groeny bitch works 3 days a week as a therapy dog for some of the autistic kids I teach - personally I consider this a truer expression of 'work' than any success in a competitive hobby !


Yes, being a therapy dog is absolutely an important job. However, a dog doesn't have to be work bred to do that job; virtually any breed or cross breed can do it. I comes down to individual personality rather than breed. It doesn't in any way preserves traits that are necessary for a working dog, because none are needed for the job. And work bred dogs can be therapy dogs too; mine comes with me to my job, where I work with disabled persons.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Bijou said:


> again ...really ??? - here's one of the earliest Tervueren
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To a novice in this breed, I would say the biggest difference is, one dog is pictured in black and white, and the other in colour.

The modern day dog does habe a slightly more anguated rather than straight back

Despite this. both dogs have the correct rear angulation.

It's difficult to comment on the turn of stifle because of the coat on the modern dog.

On the front end, I am struggling to find any differences other than facial markings - again the front angulation is comparable in both dogs.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Bijou said:


> because they have zero interest in competing in those *hobbies* ?
> 
> ...I could equally argue that if the so called working lines are so fantastic why are they not winning in conformation ? - you do what you wnat to do in your hobbies ...and I 'll concentrate on the things I'm interested in but don't get confused that any of it is real work !
> 
> Shutzhund, Obedience, Agility, Showing and Working Trials are NOT work - My Groeny bitch works 3 days a week as a therapy dog for some of the autistic kids I teach - personally I consider this a truer expression of 'work' than any success in a competitive hobby !


Because in a lot of breeds ( not yours by the look of it) the conformation in the show ring is not conducive to the work the dog was bred to perform  

Temperament and drive are another issue altogether

I know the KC is trying to change this and in many countries it's not so prominent, but unless the breeders and show people wake up to this, there will forever be a split.

What's the point of a dog that will win in the show ring but take it into the field and it can only perform for a limited time or is prone to injuries due to conformation issues.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Bijou said:


> umm...what does this mean ? - a BSD should move like a BSD - indeed it's moderate angulation must mean that it moves differently from a GSD !
> 
> again ...really ??? - here's one of the earliest Tervueren
> 
> ...


Where have I said that a BSD should move like a German Shepherd  However, that present day Terv looks like a German Shepherd- wannabe with that sloping back (it's not as bad as with the German Shepherd, though, but on the other hand- this is how show bred German Shepherds looked like some 20 years ago). So it's concerning, in my opinion.

Also, today's show bred Tervs have a lot more coat than they did before and so does the show bred Mali, so that they almost look like old times Tervs.

This is a present day show bred Mali:









This is my show bred Terv, who was born in 1990:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rona said:


> Because in a lot of breeds ( not yours by the look of it) the conformation in the show ring is not conducive to the work the dog was bred to perform
> 
> Temperament and drive are another issue altogether
> 
> ...


I take it you've studied all these dual purpose type dogs in great depth and no that dogs bred for the showring are incapable of going out and working a season? You've sat my the showring and then followed these dogs out into the field to see what they are capable of?

There are many gundogs (including Labradors) who do well in the showring and are out working full seasons enabling them to move from the main ring at Crufts to the Gamekeepers ring (for which you need a dog to be out working all season).

Similarly, the Hunt, Point, Retrieve gundogs also sit on both sides of the coins - i.e. the same dogs doing both.

The relationship between show / dual purpose and working labradors is closer than it's been for many years with many people with their show bred dogs being kept so busy on the working side, they get to just a few shows - but when they do - their places, deserved without question, are impressive.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

rona said:


> What's the point of a dog that will win in the show ring but take it into the field and it can only perform for a limited time or is prone to injuries due to conformation issues.


I think the point is is that most of the breeders of show dogs are providing pets for pet homes. If you want a dog to work, look to working lines.

If all the dogs in the ring had as much drive and need to work as working dogs and produced pups with the same I would imagine there would be even more dogs in rescues as a lot of owners would be unable to fulfil those needs in a pet.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> I think the point is is that most of the breeders of show dogs are providing pets for pet homes. If you want a dog to work, look to working lines.
> 
> If all the dogs in the ring had as much drive and need to work as working dogs and produced pups with the same I would imagine there would be even more dogs in rescues as a lot of owners would be unable to fulfil those needs in a pet.


True, but there are plenty of breeds that are bred to be pets and who historically have never had any other job then being just pets. If you just want a pet, then get a breed that's suitable as a just a pet. If you can't fulfill the need of a specific breed, get another breed and don't make perfectly good working breeds into pets with no drive. It's as simple as that!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Vicki said:


> True, but there are plenty of breeds that are bred to be pets and who historically have never had any other job then being just pets. If you just want a pet, then get a breed that's suitable as a just a pet. If you can't fulfill the need of a specific breed, get another breed and don't make perfectly good working breeds into pets with no drive. It's as simple as that!


Looking at the history of most breeds they were all intended to do some kind of work/job so that would really only leave some toy breeds.

If the breeds were only to go to working homes then breeds would die out as for some of them the job they were bred to do no longer really exists or is cruel to them now. What do you do with those breeds?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I dont know anywhere else in the world where such a wide variety in type of Siberian huskies are shown in the ring as in the UK.., imports from working kennels, and their offspring, are extremely successful under breed specialists over here. There is a big split in the breed over here, but i dont get involved in breed politics lol. I not only have friends on both side of that split but even amongst my own dogs I have both types. Merlin is deemed a show type, hes a decendant of a well known American kennel (the kennel do work their dogs to maintain the working attrubutes of the breed) . Luna is more working lines, from an English dual show/working kennel .. I also have several 'tweenies' lol, a mix of the two types, many of which seem to do well under specialist judges and all rounders alike. People with all types compete ar rallys over here.. Of course I have my preference, but there are individuals in all types which I admire.. they are the ones that arnt extremes at either end of the scale and are still fit for purpose.

These are dogs from the early 1900's, the famous Togo of the great serum run amongst them Below are some of my own dogs for comparison, including my lovely Indi who, imo, had the best conformation of all my dogs, bless her x.


































Merlin









Shadow









Indi xx









Inca









Inca & Luna


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

I can only add that in my very short (and now on -hold) showing experience, I was advised to get more weight on indie when I said to someone indie was a lot slighter (in bone structure) in all areas than the ones I'd seen. She was placed 2nd in a small puppy class at an open show as a slight built cocker... Then at another open show user the same judge got VHC- clearly the faults she had in the first show were usurped by the third and fourth puppies. Anyway my point is that 'weight on' seems to be the norm in the show ring. 

When it comes to Cockers I prefer show, I guess it's just what or been brought up with as that is what a cocker 'should' look like. Equally i know lots of working cockers who are stunning, just drastically different to show lines. Indie however has boundless energy out on walks and is very intelligent (I don't like it when people presume show Cockers are stupid because nether of mine have Ben, and bother were all show lines). 

With other breeds though I prefer working lines, looks wise, and because I don't work my dogs. 

Also, with regard to Cockers, I don't think tat he historic Cockers look too dissimilar to modern day show Cockers, but alot differen from working lines.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

swarthy said:


> I take it you've studied all these dual purpose type dogs in great depth and no that dogs bred for the showring are incapable of going out and working a season? You've sat my the showring and then followed these dogs out into the field to see what they are capable of?
> 
> There are many gundogs (including Labradors) who do well in the showring and are out working full seasons enabling them to move from the main ring at Crufts to the Gamekeepers ring (for which you need a dog to be out working all season).
> 
> ...


Oh for heavens sake I said some!!! 

I said nothing about what breeds 
Take the Clumber Spaniel as just one but not the only example (sigh)


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> If all the dogs in the ring had as much drive and need to work as working dogs and produced pups with the same I would imagine there would be even more dogs in rescues as a lot of owners would be unable to fulfil those needs in a pet.


Maybe, but on the other hand, I would hope that people would choose a breed that is appropriate to their circumstances, so if the breed characteristics were not appropriate they would choose a different one.

This a side point, and not a response to anything currently being raised, but I think sometimes when dogs are bred for temperament - as I think mine was, the results are not always what is desired. I have an easily spooked, and quite lethargic GSD. Not a bold, driven, intelligent companion. I can't help but feel that breeding for pets has in some ways spoilt the temperament - in this specific example.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Take the Clumber Spaniel as just one but not the only example (sigh)


Actually, I saw a lovely clumber spaniel on a shoot recently. Really nice, but so different from the show clumbers I've seen - almost didn't recognise it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Actually, I saw a lovely clumber spaniel on a shoot recently. Really nice, but so different from the show clumbers I've seen - almost didn't recognise it.


They are smart little dogs aren't they?

Work like little Trojans


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

rona said:


> They are smart little dogs aren't they?
> 
> Work like little Trojans


Really lovely and a great little worker. I've only seen the show type on dummies before, but this was like watching a different breed. If I ever decided on getting a spaniel I'd definately be tempted by a working type.


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