# Steroid Responsive Meningitis



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Looks like Kilo has Steroid Responsive Meningitis although lumbar puncture not done as I only noticed symptoms today. I understand what it is, the treatment and implications, but was wondering if anyone had any experiences of it in their dogs?

I am of course massively hoping that he doesn't have it, but all his symptoms fit completely so the vet is treating aggressively. We go back to the vet in 24 hours.

Thanks .


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Oh I do hope he hasn't


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

rona said:


> Oh I do hope he hasn't


Me too, he's certainly not a well dog though .


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Me too, he's certainly not a well dog though .


How long has he been bad?

Just what you need after your nice relaxing break


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

rona said:


> How long has he been bad?
> 
> Just what you need after your nice relaxing break


Noticed something not right late last night but put it down to some over enthusiastic wrestling (he screamed). Few more episodes this morning that I was wondering whether or not were musculoskeletal but then he became really lethargic or started to stand motionless and move stiffly so took him to the vet. It has been caught really early the vet reckons and treated aggressively which lessens the chance of a relapse further down the line.

Thank goodness it wasn't whilst we were away.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Looks like Kilo has Steroid Responsive Meningitis although lumbar puncture not done as I only noticed symptoms today. I understand what it is, the treatment and implications, but was wondering if anyone had any experiences of it in their dogs?
> 
> I am of course massively hoping that he doesn't have it, but all his symptoms fit completely so the vet is treating aggressively. We go back to the vet in 24 hours.
> 
> Thanks .


Oh god dogless hope he is OK, good that the vet has picked up the possibility straight away though if it is and he has hit him with treatment immediately thats good. Been quite a few threads on it and as far as I can remember all have responded and most quite quickly Ill see if I can find them.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Oh god dogless hope he is OK, good that the vet has picked up the possibility straight away though if it is and he has hit him with treatment immediately thats good. Been quite a few threads on it and as far as I can remember all have responded and most quite quickly Ill see if I can find them.


It's OK SDH - didn't think to search for some reason . I'll look to save you the bother .


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

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I have a chihuahua who had his first bout of SRM at about 18 months, he had 2 other bouts of it within a year. It was treated with antbiotics and steroids. Within a day of having the meds he was so much better. He is 6 now and has not had it for over 3 years (touch wood) and is absolutely fine!!
Hope your dog gets on ok x

Not me, but someone I came across a few years back, her dog was a toller and they are supposed to be quite prone to it. Her dog made a full recovery, and was competing at agility when I met her.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My dalmatian 11 month old had some of the symptoms your describing, she had the shaking, unresponsiveness and the staring into space. After 2 weeks o f blood tests for thyroid , xrays , she was sent for an mri scan and spinal tap. She was diagnosed with steroid responsive meningitis and is on steroids for the next four months. As soon as she went on the steroids her symptoms improved dramatically. She is much more herself apart from the hunger and thirst and restlesness from the steroids. Hope this info helps and you get a diagnosis soon. Some of the symtoms do sound similar ,I hope you get an answer soon.

Just a few even if its left for a good while before diagnosed and treatment started, there is still a quick reponse.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks SDH, always so helpful to us all .


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Two more cases, the last confirms quick treatment reduces chances of relapse

Meningitis - Cockapoo Owners Club UK

I know its frightening Dogless but all cases I have heard of have responded quickly even if left for a while before diagnosis. Kilos has been quick which as said is good news.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Two more cases, the last confirms quick treatment reduces chances of relapse
> 
> Meningitis - Cockapoo Owners Club UK
> 
> I know its frightening Dogless but all cases I have heard of have responded quickly even if left for a while before diagnosis. Kilos has been quick which as said is good news.


Yes, it is good news that the vet didn't muck about!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Yes, it is good news that the vet didn't muck about!


Its excellent news a lot of the time its missed for ages, or the vets are totally stumped, we have had a few on here with worried owners and stumped vets and its turned out to be SRM.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

No advice I'm afraid, but just wanted to send heaps of get well soon wishes to the lovely boy. Give him a (gentle) hug from me xx


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## Amy-manycats (Jun 15, 2009)

Sorry, no advice.

Just get well soon thoughts for Kilo.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

no need for me to say anything George, you know what I'm thinking. Pete.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

No experience I am sorry

Just a huge mound of get well wishes, crossed fingers and paws for a quick recovery from the babycham gang


xVx


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

I do hope its not meningitis.
Excellent your vet picked it up so quickly.

We were away in our tourer last year and the 2yr old irish setter next to us had just gotten over meningitis for the second time and he was well and recovering after treatment and very happy.

Sending positive thoughts your way and will be thinking of you all.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

No experience but just wanted to say how sorry I am that the BW is unwell. Thinking of you xxx


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Am so sorry to hear this 

Hope you get some answers soon & Kilo is running around your forest again soon x


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks all for your kind wishes. Got to love the support on PF .


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Thanks all for your kind wishes. Got to love the support on PF .


I think a lot of us have experience of poorly dogs which, ironically, helps 

Really hope he's feeling better soon, just as well he has you, someone as on the ball to notice anything out of character and wise enough to act on it


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> I think a lot of us have experience of poorly dogs which, ironically, helps
> 
> Really hope he's feeling better soon, just as well he has you, someone as on the ball to notice anything out of character and wise enough to act on it


Not sure he's lucky but he's stuck with me and we'll do whatever we need to do for my beautiful BW .


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Not sure he's lucky but he's stuck with me and we'll do whatever we need to do for my beautiful BW .


Alright then, not lucky, privileged


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

Thinking of you and Kilo, so glad they've caught it early, hopefully with the aggressive treatment Kilo will make a quick recovery.

Sending a big hug to you both!


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Just to let you know am thinking of you and lovely Kilo xxx 

Really hope he'll be ok! Good job you were 'on the ball' though and got him in for treatment quickly. Poor boy. And poor you!! Sending healing vibes from deepest Derbyshire xx


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

thinking of you and kilo. hope the boywonder has a swift recovery.


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## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Noticed something not right late last night but put it down to some over enthusiastic wrestling (he screamed). Few more episodes this morning that I was wondering whether or not were musculoskeletal but then he became really lethargic or started to stand motionless and move stiffly so took him to the vet. It has been caught really early the vet reckons and treated aggressively which lessens the chance of a relapse further down the line.
> 
> Thank goodness it wasn't whilst we were away.


Oh God hunni, so so sorry to hear this  sending HUGE HUGE positive vibes XXX


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Poor Kilo... Get Well wishes for the BW..


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

How is he today, Dogless? Hopefully the medications started working.


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

hope boy wonders feeling better today.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks for asking, really kind.

The same. Very quiet, sleepy. Didn't race to greet me with Rudi this morning but walked over slowly, still had his wag though :001_wub:. Ate his breakfast then back to sleep. I'm being careful to remember not to give him his usual fusses - he likes scratching and rubbing hard all along his back - and he isn't really after any.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Oh the poor lad. 

You feel so useless when they're ill, don't you? Horrible feeling.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

BessieDog said:


> Oh the poor lad.
> 
> You feel so useless when they're ill, don't you? Horrible feeling.


Yes, I'm just leaving him be unless he comes to me for anything. Odd seeing him not get excited when I get Rudi's collar and lead out.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

Poor Kilo, and you. I know nothing about it but I hope he's feeling better soon.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Really hope he shows some improvement soon for all your sakes. Glad he still has a little wag though. Poor lad.


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## IrishEyes (Jun 26, 2012)

I had to google this as I'd never heard of it until now, fingers crossed for a speedy recovery for lovely Kilo. Keep us posted.

I guess one positive thing can be taken from this, those of us who had never heard of it before now are aware of it and aware of what the symptoms are.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Hoping he starts to feel better today Dogless, thinking of Kilo, lots of healing vibes coming your way from us xx


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Poor boy  

I hope he has a quick recovery. Thinking of you x


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## Strawberryearth (Apr 5, 2012)

I have just seen this. I am sending all of my well wishes and positive thoughts your way, well Kilo's way. 

I hope he starts to pick up soon. Make sure you look after yourself as well as your gorgeous boys.


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## kaypug (Jun 29, 2012)

My chihuahua suffered with this (his case is mentioned in one of the posts by Sleddoghotel I think?). He made a full recovery very quickly after being treated with ABs and steroids. He had it again twice afterwards but I knew he symptoms and he was treated right away. The vets didn't have a clue that it was SRM, luckily my postman, who is very experienced in dogs, told me to tell he vet what it was! Hoping Kilo feels better soon x


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

Poor boy  

We went through this with Bruno a couple of years ago (although it turned out not to be SRM). Its horrible seeing them scream in pain and not being able to help 

I really hope that he's back to himself soon xxx


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

kaypug said:


> My chihuahua suffered with this (his case is mentioned in one of the posts by Sleddoghotel I think?). He made a full recovery very quickly after being treated with ABs and steroids. He had it again twice afterwards but I knew he symptoms and he was treated right away. The vets didn't have a clue that it was SRM, luckily my postman, who is very experienced in dogs, told me to tell he vet what it was! Hoping Kilo feels better soon x


That is good news, very encouraging. Did he have steroids for months? And what a good postman .


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

My Tilly had SRMA (it is known about in tollers). She was 6 mths old when she had it and is now 7 years and very healthy.
The most important thing is to not stop the steroids too quickly, should be very slowly weaned of over at least 4 months, usually 6 months.

If you want to read about a few cases then join the toller forum www.thetollerclub.org.uk/forum and have a look in the health section.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Tollisty said:


> My Tilly had SRMA (it is known about in tollers). She was 6 mths old when she had it and is now 7 years and very healthy.
> The most important thing is to not stop the steroids too quickly, should be very slowly weaned of over at least 4 months, usually 6 months.
> 
> If you want to read about a few cases then join the toller forum The Toller Club Of Great Britain Toller Club Of Great Britain • Index page and have a look in the health section.


Thank you very much. Pleased Tilly recovered well.


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

If you post on the forum you will get alot of help and support  Doesn't matter what breed!


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Oh gracious, I have only just seen this 

I hope that Kilo responds well and he'll be on the path to recovery soon.

I hope you're feeling OK yourself too. 

X


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Tollisty said:


> If you post on the forum you will get alot of help and support  Doesn't matter what breed!


I have joined - will be obvious who I am through the username .


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Just seen this, really hope Kilo's OK.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Oh no poor Kilo & you  everything crossed here for some good news soon xxx


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## clayton1985 (Jan 17, 2013)

Only just seen this, wishing him a speedy recovery and you a friendly ear if you ever need it


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Well, good news. Kilo has responded well to the steroids, had another large dose today injected along with A/Bs, then onto oral A/Bs and steroids from tomorrow .


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Well, good news. Kilo has responded well to the steroids, had another large dose today injected along with A/Bs, then onto oral A/Bs and steroids from tomorrow .


:thumbup: :thumbup: Spot on :thumbup::thumbup: 

they tested wonkie with a lumba puncture for Meningitis when his last scan did'nt show anything up other than weird stuff


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Very relieved for you  hope he continues to respond well!


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## IrishEyes (Jun 26, 2012)

Great news, that must be a weight off your mind. Get well soon Kilo.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Thats wonderful news .


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

Just caught up on this so so sorry kilo has been ill, but great that he is responding to the meds.. big hugs to the bw.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Hope Kilo gets better soon.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Poor Kilo :sad:

Great news that he's responding to the meds though :thumbsup:


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

That's fantastic news, so glad to hear it


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## clayton1985 (Jan 17, 2013)

great news


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

So Glad Kilo is responding well to the steroids and anti biotics and you can see results already.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Only just seen this and didn't know he was poorly.  Such a huge worry for you and after your lovely break too. 

I don't know much about SRM so no help I'm afraid, just hope he continues on the road to recovery, seems good you caught it early from previous posts. Poor boy had such a nice holiday and now this!

Get well wishes from all here Sir Kilo, all rooting for a speedy recovery for you. xx


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Delighted to hear Kilo is feeling brighter, really great news.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

YAY for Kilo feeling better 

Can I ask how what steroids he is on and the dosage?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> YAY for Kilo feeling better
> 
> Can I ask how what steroids he is on and the dosage?


The oral ones from tomorrow are Prednisolone 15mg twice per day


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> The oral ones from tomorrow are Prednisolone 15mg twice per day


Cool. As I am sure you know some believe steroids make dogs more prone to pancreatitis and others disagree. I have one vet who agrees and one who doesn't where I take mine :crazy:

Anyway Rupert had it early Sept last year and I did look into it a bit, could be worth a little read if he's to be on them for long (from what I read it could be a few months, you do need to wean them off slow with steroids anyway). I didn't really know about the steroid - pancreatitis link until it happened. I'm sure he'll be fine but thought I would mention it anyway! Some dogs have very different symptoms and its not something I had any clue about until it happened.


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Poor Kilo, I'm really glad he's improving 

To be honest I've never heard of this before, it's a bit scary


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Cool. As I am sure you know some believe steroids make dogs more prone to pancreatitis and others disagree. I have one vet who agrees and one who doesn't where I take mine :crazy:
> 
> Anyway Rupert had it early Sept last year and I did look into it a bit, could be worth a little read if he's to be on them for long (from what I read it could be a few months, you do need to wean them off slow with steroids anyway). I didn't really know about the steroid - pancreatitis link until it happened. I'm sure he'll be fine but thought I would mention it anyway! Some dogs have very different symptoms and its not something I had any clue about until it happened.


Thank you. I have no real choice TBH. Without steroids he'd be very ill indeed.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Get well soon Kilo, I need to see some pictures that show you're keeping the young upstart in his place.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

springerpete said:


> Get well soon Kilo, I need to see some pictures that show you're keeping the young upstart in his place.


The young upstart has been remarkably perceptive and left Kilo totally alone for the past few days. Not bugged him or approached him with a toy to play at all. Well done little fella.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

so glad he is feeling a little better x


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Thank you. I have no real choice TBH. Without steroids he'd be very ill indeed.


Steroids (prednisolone) saved Sheba's life, without a doubt. Sometimes there is no other choice.

They weren't good for her in the long-term (ie: years) but she was already terribly old and became dependent. Hopefully with Kilo they'll do the trick and he can be weaned successfully before you know it!

Do they know what causes SRM or is it just one of those things?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> Steroids (prednisolone) saved Sheba's life, without a doubt. Sometimes there is no other choice.
> 
> They weren't good for her in the long-term (ie: years) but she was already terribly old and became dependent. Hopefully with Kilo they'll do the trick and he can be weaned successfully before you know it!
> 
> Do they know what causes SRM or is it just one of those things?


From reading up there may be a genetic component as it's prevalent in Tollers and Beagles - research is ongoing. There is no real known cause but it is an auto immune response to something - so one of those things really. Med - large young dogs are most at risk.

Kilo's breeders know, were pleased to have been told - not heard of it in RRs.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Am so pleased Kilo's responding well to treatment.  xx

Hope he continues to improve, bless him. Thinking very much of you and Kilo xx


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Thank you. I have no real choice TBH. Without steroids he'd be very ill indeed.


Oh no I don't mean reconsider steroids. I just mean to be aware that there is a link. You probably know but I didn't! Rupert didn't have textbook symptoms and I thought he must have an obstruction, that was why I rushed him to the vets. But there isn't usually a specific trigger. It is just more likely to appear in a dog on corticosteroids than one who is not, so I think its a plus to know that fact and what to look out for, is all


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Oh no I don't mean reconsider steroids. I just mean to be aware that there is a link. You probably know but I didn't! Rupert didn't have textbook symptoms and I thought he must have an obstruction, that was why I rushed him to the vets. But there isn't usually a specific trigger. It is just more likely to appear in a dog on corticosteroids than one who is not, so I think its a plus to know that fact and what to look out for, is all


I see, must have misunderstood, sorry . I do recall Rupert's experience and will certainly keep it in mind - thanks for telling me.


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

This is the treatment Tilly had (she weighed about 13kg)
preds 25mg
1 twice a day for 3 days, 
1 a day for 2 weeks, 
1/2 per day for 28 days, 
1/4 per day for 28 days, 
1/4 every other day for 28 days.

But she had a mild case, some dogs have to have steroids for 6 months plus. After she had finished them I took steroids with me wherever I went for a few months after!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Tollisty said:


> This is the treatment Tilly had (she weighed about 13kg)
> preds 25mg
> 1 twice a day for 3 days,
> 1 a day for 2 weeks,
> ...


Thanks, that's very useful to know. Did she have A/Bs as well?


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

No. The vets thought she had injured her neck, she had rimadyl which made her better for a couple of days but then she got much worse and I had to tell them it was SRMA, and then Tilly was referred to the Cambridge hospital.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Tollisty said:


> No. The vets thought she had injured her neck, she had rimadyl which made her better for a couple of days but then she got much worse and I had to tell them it was SRMA, and then Tilly was referred to the Cambridge hospital.


Interesting. I can find some instances where A/Bs are given alongside prednisolone and some where they aren't.


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

There's no set treatment, it is as individual as the dog. Some suffer with steroid side effects quite badly and some don't at all. There are a couple of sad cases, both suffered with severe side effects which ended their young lives :crying: . But most get better and live normal, healthy lives 


(anyway, you have probably found all that on the toller forum!)


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Tollisty said:


> There's no set treatment, it is as individual as the dog. Some suffer with steroid side effects quite badly and some don't at all. There are a couple of sad cases, both suffered with severe side effects which ended their young lives :crying: . But most get better and live normal, healthy lives
> 
> (anyway, you have probably found all that on the toller forum!)


Yes, I couldn't help but read the sad cases; tried not to though in my own selfish way .

I have never seen such an open and honest forum for the sharing of information I must admit, very refreshing and interesting.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> I see, must have misunderstood, sorry . I do recall Rupert's experience and will certainly keep it in mind - thanks for telling me.


Steroids are amazing there is no doubting it, a wonder drug for sure. Hope he continues to improve. Rupert never liked swallowing steroid tablets, not as palatable as some others, apparently  His favourite was to have it slid into half of a cherry tomato  *bad owner* It gets frustrating getting the jam jar and a spoon out several times a day :laugh:

Really hope he's on the mend good and proper


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Steroids are amazing there is no doubting it, a wonder drug for sure. Hope he continues to improve. Rupert never liked swallowing steroid tablets, not as palatable as some others, apparently  His favourite was to have it slid into half of a cherry tomato  *bad owner* It gets frustrating getting the jam jar and a spoon out several times a day :laugh:
> 
> Really hope he's on the mend good and proper


Bought a pack of cheap ham. Kilo tends to swallow pretty much anything without checking whether it's palatable or not .


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Bought a pack of cheap ham. Kilo tends to swallow pretty much anything without checking whether it's palatable or not .


Oh the joys of owning greedy dogs, does come in handy once in a while


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

Dogless said:


> Yes, I couldn't help but read the sad cases; tried not to though in my own selfish way .
> 
> I have never seen such an open and honest forum for the sharing of information I must admit, very refreshing and interesting.


Generally the breed is open and honest, we love our red dogs and want them to be as healthy as possible  our health coordinator (caledon on the forum)has done alot of research into toller health and will help anyone who needs it.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Tollisty said:


> Generally the breed is open and honest, we love our red dogs and want them to be as healthy as possible  our health coordinator (caledon on the forum)has done alot of research into toller health and will help anyone who needs it.


I'm sure I saw a Toller when I was on holiday, thought of you!


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Hope gorgeous boy is feeling better : )


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm another that didn't know what this was : (


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Here's hoping Kilo feels tons better tomorrow!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Well I was greeted with play bows and skips this morning and Kilo's eyes are bright again . He's asleep yet again now but I'm guessing that's to be expected?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Yes, he will wee for England too, probably! And be keen for triple portions of dinner! Rupert is a git on steroids he is prepared to fight over food with Milo, more because Milo is a walkover and Rupert knows it  I have to separate them to eat and be on guard because he doesn't do sharing, git.

So glad he's doing better, it's amazing what steroids can do. Side effects can be few and far between he will get used to them soon


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Yes, he will wee for England too, probably! And be keen for triple portions of dinner! Rupert is a git on steroids he is prepared to fight over food with Milo, more because Milo is a walkover and Rupert knows it  I have to separate them to eat and be on guard because he doesn't do sharing, git.
> 
> So glad he's doing better, it's amazing what steroids can do.


I feed them separately anyway as Rudi would take Kilo's food off him. The vet said he'd eat more...said he wouldn't as I can't free feed anyway :laugh:.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> I feed them separately anyway as Rudi would take Kilo's food off him. The vet said he'd eat more...said he wouldn't as I can't free feed anyway :laugh:.


Aww bless. Rupert is alright when he's not on steroids but awful greedy when he is, feel bad for telling him off too because its like they stop his brain from working for 3 seconds. Can always see in his face after he's like 'oh god did I just do that ' He was always on off on off though, hopefully Kilo will just settle nicely on the dosage AND it will prevent any symptoms. Rudi sounds like he's coping well too, or is he being a mischief monkey?!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Aww bless. Rupert is alright when he's not on steroids but awful greedy when he is, feel bad for telling him off too because its like they stop his brain from working for 3 seconds. Can always see in his face after he's like 'oh god did I just do that ' He was always on off on off though, hopefully Kilo will just settle nicely on the dosage AND it will prevent any symptoms. Rudi sounds like he's coping well too, or is he being a mischief monkey?!


Kilo and Rudi are both very greedy indeed.

Remarkably Rudi knows something's up and has left him alone for days, he's being really good. Giving him little extra walks as he's not getting play / training with me in the house as normal to keep things quiet for Kilo.

I thought I'd be crating / separating with baby gates a lot to stop him being a nuisance but he's been good as gold. He's back to being crated when I nip out though just in case.


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

glad kilos feeling better,i think we under estimate our dogs,they know when things aren't right,glad rudi is being sympathetic to his big bro.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

princeno5 said:


> glad kilos feeling better,i think we under estimate our dogs,they know when things aren't right,glad rudi is being sympathetic to his big bro.


I suspect that the minute Rudi deems him well enough he'll leap on him :yikes:.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Well I was greeted with play bows and skips this morning and Kilo's eyes are bright again . He's asleep yet again now but I'm guessing that's to be expected?


That's a relief, he sounds so much better 

You seem surprised a Ridgie is asleep


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I feed them separately anyway as Rudi would take Kilo's food off him. The vet said he'd eat more...said he wouldn't as I can't free feed anyway :laugh:.


Its always the little ones ......although, I'm not sure I can call Rudi little 

So glad that he's making more improvements......when they go through something like this it just makes us love and appreciate them even more


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## lipsthefish (Mar 17, 2012)

So glad Kilo is feeling a little bit better, please God he will continue to improve quickly and will soon be back to running through the forest 

The big beasties send some gentle ear licks xx


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Oh, that's good news, Dogless. Dogs seem to bounce back much quicker than humans. I think it's because they just go by what they feel, whereas we think too much about how we should be feeling! His instinct will tell him when he needs extra sleep etc.

So glad Rudi is being understanding - strange creatures, aren't they? Lot more sense than we give them credit for. 

You must be breathing easier today! Hope his onward progress is just as speedy.


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## Symone (Dec 3, 2012)

I only just saw this thread.
Big hugs to you, Dogless. I'm happy you managed to find out what the problem was very quickly. 
I have to say I'm glad to hear that he is doing well on the steroids! I'll keep my fingers crossed for a steady recovery. 
Hope that he will be well, soon.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Well I was greeted with play bows and skips this morning and Kilo's eyes are bright again . He's asleep yet again now but I'm guessing that's to be expected?


Dogless I am so pleased and relieved that Kilo is even more like his normal self today. I woudnt worry about the sleeping to be honest as he is do much better inbetween the sleeping, sleeping and rest is good for the body to repair inbetween anyway.

As they have hit him with agressive doeses of steroids, dont be suprised if he is drinking and weeing a lot more and even gets caught short. You may find he is a lot more food driven too, as steroids stimulate hunger and thirst too and in turn of course they pee more. Its all normal this lot do it, on the rare occasions they have had steroids and that was after one injection. Might be an idea to get him to toilet a bit more frequent. Although you probably dont care if you have any accidents I certainly dont, its irrelevant as long as they are ok and improving isnt it!!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Dogless I am so pleased and relieved that Kilo is even more like his normal self today. I woudnt worry about the sleeping to be honest as he is do much better inbetween the sleeping, sleeping and rest is good for the body to repair inbetween anyway.
> 
> As they have hit him with agressive doeses of steroids, dont be suprised if he is drinking and weeing a lot more and even gets caught short. You may find he is a lot more food driven too, as steroids stimulate hunger and thirst too and in turn of course they pee more. Its all normal this lot do it, on the rare occasions they have had steroids and that was after one injection. Might be an idea to get him to toilet a bit more frequent. Although you probably dont care if you have any accidents I certainly dont, its irrelevant as long as they are ok and improving isnt it!!


I couldn't care less if I have to get the carpet cleaner out SDH as long as Kilo is being helped by the medication . He usually only wees on walks - bladder of steel!

The vet said that he would eat a lot more but he is fed a set amount as he'd eat until he burst normally. Thought I'd add veg if he seemed extremely hungry but I'll see how he goes. Also said he'd drink and possibly pant a lot. I am desperately trying not to think about other, more serious, complications but at the same time am aware of them so i can keep an eye out.

The twice he's been awake today he's been pretty bright but he's sleeping yet again at present.


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

i have only just seen this thread!

Poor Kilo! Glad he is responding well to treatment sending lots of love xx

and licks from Cali xxx

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Just massive hugs to you and Kilo. I've not read all the posts but just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you and hope everything goes well.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

So glad to see he's off to a good start with the treatment 
He's fit, young, healthy overall, and on an excellent diet - it must stand him in good stead, I'm sure.
May he continue onwards and upwards!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> I couldn't care less if I have to get the carpet cleaner out SDH as long as Kilo is being helped by the medication . He usually only wees on walks - bladder of steel!
> 
> The vet said that he would eat a lot more but he is fed a set amount as he'd eat until he burst normally. Thought I'd add veg if he seemed extremely hungry but I'll see how he goes. Also said he'd drink and possibly pant a lot. I am desperately trying not to think about other, more serious, complications but at the same time am aware of them so i can keep an eye out.
> 
> The twice he's been awake today he's been pretty bright but he's sleeping yet again at present.


Im sure he will be fine dogless, he is a young fit extemely healthy dog apart from his current problem, usually once off them the symptoms stop pretty quickly anyway. Thankfully you had a very clued up vet who immediately suspected it and acted swiftly, so hopefully he wont be on them as long as some, plus it reduces chances of any relapses usually. Its usually older dogs, with possible other ailments who may not be so fit and healthy I worry about using steroids more to be honest.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Im sure he will be fine dogless, he is a young fit extemely healthy dog apart from his current problem, usually once off them the symptoms stop pretty quickly anyway. Thankfully you had a very clued up vet who immediately suspected it and acted swiftly, so hopefully he wont be on them as long as some, plus it reduces chances of any relapses usually. Its usually older dogs, with possible other ailments who may not be so fit and healthy I worry about using steroids more to be honest.


Yes, it seems that pre-diabetic dogs are at most risk and I have no reason to suspect that Kilo is pre-diabetic at all. Touch wood!!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Awe bless him, I'm so glad to hear he's more comfortable today and is resting. Hope everything goes to plan and he continues to improve - it's a good job he's such a healthy dog in other ways and is a strong lad too. Can't believe how this condition floors them, didn't know much about it until googling last night. Like you Dogless I read all I can if one of the dogs are sick, as it's best to be able to spot any further symptoms than just sit back with fingers crossed. 

Get well wishes from here. xx


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I've only just seen this thread.

I'm sorry to hear Kilo is unwell but glad he seems a little bit more like his normal self again.

I have a friend whose whippet has steriod responsive meningitus. She has had it for quite a few years at the time she got it not a lot was really known and it took a long time for them to diagnose the dogs problem. Because of this her dog does suffer from relapses from time to time. She is aware of this and always has a course of steriods available just in case she relapses.

I have also heard of other whippets who have suddered from it and have gone on to make a full recovery.


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## H0lly (Jan 31, 2010)

Only just caught up, massive get well wishes to kilo and. Hugs to you xx


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## Mollyspringer (Aug 16, 2011)

Love and hugs to the gorgeous BW, from Me and Molly xxx


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

Sending love and hugs Kilo, keep getting better.


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Keep taking the tablets Kilo. Pleased to hear he is a bit more like himself when awake. What a worry these boys ( and girls) can be. Thinking of you, know what I'd be like even though things are looking better.


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## Micky93 (May 15, 2012)

Sorry Dogless, I've only just seen this thread! I hope the boywonder is feeling more himself this evening and continues to make a speedy recovery - and glad that Rudi is being a considerate little brother  Sending get well hugs to the big boy.

I am another one who had never heard of it before this thread, makes you wonder what else there is that you don't know out there... :eek6:


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Hell Dogless, I need to spend more time on here ..sorry I missed it , so glad he has perked up and feeling a little better xx


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just caught up with this, hope Kilo's responding to treatment and on the up xx


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just caught up with this, hope Kilo's responding to treatment and on the up xx


He is making a little progress, thank you .


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## lotlot (Mar 28, 2011)

I have only just seen this thread. Poor Kilo!! And poor you! 

I'm glad he's responding well to steroids. How is he this morning?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

lotlot said:


> I have only just seen this thread. Poor Kilo!! And poor you!
> 
> I'm glad he's responding well to steroids. How is he this morning?


About the same as yesterday, thanks .


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Well the BW is a little brighter . He came to the door with an annoying squeaky ball when I got back with Rudi and was pestering for a walk. Took him out for a short lead potter, he enjoyed it but tired pretty fast. Asleep again now.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

That's brilliant news


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Oh Dogless I've only just seen this 

Poor you and poor Kilo. So pleased to hear he is slowly improving though... you must have been out of your mind with worry.

Alfie sends gentle shoulder barges and a lick xx


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Well the BW is a little brighter . He came to the door with an annoying squeaky ball when I got back with Rudi and was pestering for a walk. Took him out for a short lead potter, he enjoyed it but tired pretty fast. Asleep again now.


So glad the boy wonder is showing even more signs today of being his old self and wanting to do more. xx


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Bless him, sounds like he's got some of his sparkle back


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

So glad he is continuing to go in the right direction


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> So glad he is continuing to go in the right direction


Thank you all so much for caring, it's lovely! He picked up toys to play with this afternoon and had another gentle walk. Not wanting Rudi playing with him and still seems quite touch - sensitive from the way he stands and acts at times, but definitely more and more 'Kilo' emerging from the long sleeps.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Well, I was greeted by a normal (for him ) Kilo this morning; I'm so happy. I know that he'll still be tired and he still doesn't want Rudi leaping around him, but it's so nice to have my bouncy boy back .

He is teeth chattering, singing and whining whilst I get any food ready and drinking lots, but the main thing is he seems to be improving every day .


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Brilliant news


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Thank goodness. So glad he is improving so much.Kilo counter surfing will be a good thing to hear/see, when they do something naughty, you know they are feeling better


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

You must be so relieved! So glad he's getting back to his normal self. :thumbup:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Terrific news dogless, seems the boy wonders making a quick comeback with a vengeance now!!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Terrific news dogless, seems the boy wonders making a quick comeback with a vengeance now!!


Still ploddy on his short walks today and slept almost all day - no toys today -but he is brighter when he's awake. Now to balance trying to get some weight on him (it's melted off despite him still eating) with the fact the steroids may cause weight gain. He really needs some on though, no doubt about that.

ETA: How tired / lethargic did steroids make your lot? Because that is a symptom that I noticed in the first place with the SRMA and it's still here it's hard to know what can be attributed to steroids and what to him still feeling ill?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Still ploddy on his short walks today and slept almost all day - no toys today -but he is brighter. Now to balance trying to get some weight on him (it's melted off despite him still eating) with the fact the steroids may cause weight gain. He really needs some on though, no doubt about that.


It does take a lot out of them though and painful so that will wear him down and make him tired and ploddy, we know what pain can do to us dogless, so he isnt any different bless him. Main thing he is responding well and better on a daily basis. The weight will probably go back on quicker the more he gets further and further into recovery.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> It does take a lot out of them though and painful so that will wear him down and make him tired and ploddy, we know what pain can do to us dogless, so he isnt any different bless him. Main thing he is responding well and better on a daily basis. The weight will probably go back on quicker the more he gets further and further into recovery.


Yes, I couldn't quite explain what I meant but you managed to understand . I am expecting him to be very tired, just not sure what is 'normal' on steroids on top of recovery. Think him playing a bit yesterday and going out twice took it out of him. I'll only take him out again tonight after Rudi if he really pesters and really cut down the time out. Not that we are exactly going far or doing much at all - just mooching about sniffing really. Hubby's berating me for always keeping him too skinny in the first place (his opinion, I think he's always spot on) which is really helping as you can imagine .


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Still ploddy on his short walks today and slept almost all day - no toys today -but he is brighter when he's awake. Now to balance trying to get some weight on him (it's melted off despite him still eating) with the fact the steroids may cause weight gain. He really needs some on though, no doubt about that.
> 
> ETA: How tired / lethargic did steroids make your lot? Because that is a symptom that I noticed in the first place with the SRMA and it's still here it's hard to know what can be attributed to steroids and what to him still feeling ill?


Without checking but Im pretty sure all the problems are caused by inflammation to the melanges which are the protective membranes of the brain and also the protective membrane of the spinal cord, so the inflammation has to go down which it will do gradually as the treatment progresses, Until then he probably will still have a certain amount of pain and stiffness hence the ploddy walks. He is still going to be tired and lethargic until its all under control and the inflammation has subsided completely. I should imagine a lot is to do with the illness itself.
I wouldnt worry too much, the fact that he is brighter more himself and doing more things on a daily basis is good, if there wasnt improvement I would be m worried.

I didnt notice any of my lot on steroids be particularly lethargic, although of course every dog is different. Most things I noticed was things like increased panting a bit here and there, drinking and weeing for england and being really food driven. All of them have had accidents. Mostly these though have only had the one off injection, but even that gave the symptoms described. Vets usually say that, the one off injection lasts around 4/5 days, but in mine they have been fine for the first 4/5 days no particular differences, in fact its the 4/5 days symptoms have started and then gone on for over a week to 10 days before totally dissapearing.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Without checking but Im sure all the problems are caused by inflammation to the melanges which are the protective membranes of the brain and also the protective menbrane of the spinal cord, so the inflammation has to go down which it will do gradually as the treatment progresses, Until then he probably will still have a certain amount of pain and stiffness hence the ploody walks. He is still going to be tired and lethargic until its all under control and the inflmmation has subsided completely. I should imagine a lot is to do with the illness itself.
> I wouldnt worry too much, the fact that he is brighter more himself and doing more things on a daily basis is good, if there wasnt improvement I would be m worried.
> 
> I didnt notice any of my lot on steroids be particularly lethargic, although of course every dog is different. Most things I noticed was things like increased panting a bit here and there, drinking and weeing for england and being really food driven. All of them have had accidents. Mostly these though have only had the one off injection, but even that gave the symptoms described. Vets usually say that, the one off injection lasts around 4/5 days, but in mine they have been fine for the first 4/5 days no particular differences, in fact its the 4/5 days symptoms have started and then gone on for over a week to 10 days before totally dissapearing.


I understand the medical aspect of it well - it's just translating my scientific 'cold' understanding into what I see in Kilo.

When he's up and about he's very much more 'Kilo' like the greeting I got this morning. Still doesn't want Rudi around him in play mode and still holds his head slightly lowered when walking from time to time so I think there's some discomfort / stiffness left. I'm pretty sure (hope!!!) he isn't in pain - it was very obvious when it was bad.

He is VERY food obsessed and drinking an immense amount. Not really going out to pee a lot more but when he does it's gallons. I am calling him out a few extra times a day but don't think he'd volunteer himself, he has a bladder of steel! He had two injections of steroid the first two days and then started the tablets so he's been hit with a fair whack. Plus is on A/Bs poor boy.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Yes, I couldn't quite explain what I meant but you managed to understand . I am expecting him to be very tired, just not sure what is 'normal' on steroids on top of recovery. Think him playing a bit yesterday and going out twice took it out of him. I'll only take him out again tonight after Rudi if he really pesters and really cut down the time out. Not that we are exactly going far or doing much at all - just mooching about sniffing really. Hubby's berating me for always keeping him too skinny in the first place (his opinion, I think he's always spot on) which is really helping as you can imagine .


What Ive found its the more physcological aspect of going out rather then the actual doing anything on the walk or for any real length of time that has the impact.

Kobi as you know has periods of limping, that all the diagnostics never got to the bottom of and was put down to some sort of soft tissue problem/weakness. So his is a case of management if it happens. I found with him that if I didnt take him out on a rest period (which is the only thing that fixes it) it does more damage as he gets himself into a tiz if the girls go out and he doesnt and is more likely to get a fit of the crazies and start throwing himself about. What I do is literally put his lead on take him a few houses down, cross over and come back the other side, letting have a sniff and a bit of a fuss if he encounters anyone from his fan club, and he is fine after, so I think its more the physcological aspect that he has actually been out, rather then what he does out if that makes sense. Maybe try that Dogless dont actually go far at all or for that long.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> What Ive found its the more physcological aspect of going out rather then the actual doing anything on the walk or for any real length of time that has the impact.
> 
> Kobi as you know has periods of limping, that all the diagnostics never got to the bottom of and was put down to some sort of soft tissue problem/weakness. So his is a case of management if it happens. I found with him that if I didnt take him out on a rest period (which is the only thing that fixes it) it does more damage as he gets himself into a tiz if the girls go out and he doesnt and is more likely to get a fit of the crazies and start throwing himself about. What I do is literally put his lead on take him a few houses down, cross over and come back the other side, letting have a sniff and a bit of a fuss if he encounters anyone from his fan club, and he is fine after, so I think its more the physcological aspect that he has actually been out, rather then what he does out if that makes sense. Maybe try that Dogless dont actually go far at all or for that long.


That's what we're doing - I'm not taking him far at all, don't worry. I'm just giving him a change of scene and letting him mooch and sniff. I just maybe let him have too long this morning, we weren't walking far though, just exploring a patch of grass!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> I understand the medical aspect of it well - it's just translating my scientific 'cold' understanding into what I see in Kilo.
> 
> When he's up and about he's very much more 'Kilo' like the greeting I got this morning. Still doesn't want Rudi around him in play mode and still holds his head slightly lowered when walking from time to time so I think there's some discomfort / stiffness left. I'm pretty sure (hope!!!) he isn't in pain - it was very obvious when it was bad.
> 
> He is VERY food obsessed and drinking an immense amount. Not really going out to pee a lot more but when he does it's gallons. I am calling him out a few extra times a day but don't think he'd volunteer himself, he has a bladder of steel! He had two injections of steroid the first two days and then started the tablets so he's been hit with a fair whack. Plus is on A/Bs poor boy.


Sounds like he is being sensible as far as Rudi is concerned as with Kobi its the mad play that can do more damage, not as though that stops him stupid boy. Its probably a case of the treament is working (obviously) and after a rest period he likely feels better inbetween, his energy levels are a little more replenished bu the day so he wants to do more, but at this stage its easy to go over the limit of what he can still do if that makes sense, so as minimal as it is to what he usually does he hasnt got the energy threshold still to do what he thinks he can. You can hardly say to them thats enough you cant do more and overtire yourslef can you. I know Kobi would do more with his leg limping or not some days if I continued. Ive noticed as the limp decreases and its getting better he automatically wants to carry on, but I know if I let him and he did too much too soon it will likely become worse. Know its an entirely different condition, but hope you can see what I mean.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Sounds like he is being sensible as far as Rudi is concerned as with Kobi its the mad play that can do more damage, not as though that stops him stupid boy. Its probably a case of the treament is working (obviously) and after a rest period he likely feels better inbetween, his energy levels are a little more replenished bu the day so he wants to do more, but at this stage its easy to go over the limit of what he can still do if that makes sense, so as minimal as it is to what he usually does he hasnt got the energy threshold still to do what he thinks he can. You can hardly say to them thats enough you cant do more and overtire yourslef can you. I know Kobi would do more with his leg limping or not some days if I continued. Ive noticed as the limp decreases and its getting better he automatically wants to carry on, but I know if I let him and he did too much too soon it will likely become worse. Know its an entirely different condition, but hope you can see what I mean.


Yes, absolutely understand. Strangely enough Rudi has proved to be extremely sensitive (not a word I thought I'd be using about the Megapuppy who crashes about!!!) to Kilo being ill and not even attempted to get Kilo to play, or even played with his squeaky toys. He's played by himself but not once bounced on Kilo, it's been a real relief that I've not had to keep them separated with gates / crate etc as I thought I might have to. Rudi is back in his crate for the time being when I pop out to the shop or anything during the day just in case even though it only takes me 10 minutes!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> That's what we're doing - I'm not taking him far at all, don't worry. I'm just giving him a change of scene and letting him mooch and sniff. I just maybe let him have too long this morning, we weren't walking far though, just exploring a patch of grass!


Its the change as you say that makes the difference. The orthopaedic guy said Kobi should be on rest and only loo breaks on lead in the garden, but to be honest, by the time I walked him around on lead until he peed or pooed and its down a few steps anyway off the decking, he was probably actually doing less plus its on the flat and no steps taking him out the front a few houses down, plus its a change of scene and a few trees and grass with different smells and he often gets a fuss too. They are more tempted to do something barmy and overdo it indoors otherwise when they feel a little better and bored.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Yes, absolutely understand. Strangely enough Rudi has proved to be extremely sensitive (not a word I thought I'd be using about the Megapuppy who crashes about!!!) to Kilo being ill and not even attempted to get Kilo to play, or even played with his squeaky toys. He's played by himself but not once bounced on Kilo, it's been a real relief that I've not had to keep them separated with gates / crate etc as I thought I might have to. Rudi is back in his crate for the time being when I pop out to the shop or anything during the day just in case even though it only takes me 10 minutes!


I think dogs have more savvy then we give them credit for at times, they often know a canine buddy isnt quite right or ill, in fact its proven when you think about it, as per the medic alert dogs that can tell when an owners going to have a seizure way before they do, or the diabetes dogs who know when owners levels have dropped and warn them to take meds even again before the owners know or get real symptoms if they can detect illness and physical changes in a different species they must sure as hell be able to detect it in their own species and breed.

As you say though you never know best to separate it only takes Kilo waking up and feeling more energised and Rudi did join in or encourage him and they have a little play and Kilo overdoes it, I separate Kobi when I cant watch him and his legs bad too. I now the stupid dog will play otherwise.


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## purpleskyes (May 24, 2012)

I have just seen this thread so glad he is responding well to the treatment and wishing him a speedy recovery x


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

How's Kilo this morning?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Also awaiting the morning update on the BW


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

SixStar said:


> How's Kilo this morning?





GoldenShadow said:


> Also awaiting the morning update on the BW


The support on here is amazing .

After his potter about yesterday morning Kilo just slept all day. Greeted me like 'Kilo' this morning and then has just slept again. He moves for food and that's about it. No interest in going out this morning. I'll just go by what he wants.

Think the steroids are really kicking in, he's drinking more and more. He has become very skinny, very quickly too. Noticed that his collar was loose yesterday on the hole it's always on and his neck is visibly thinner. His occipital bone is more pronounced which I am guessing is down to a little muscle wastage or fat loss. I know that it can also be connected to hypothyroidism, but he hadn't shown any signs of that prior to this episode and he has noticeably lost weight / mass all over.

I am convinced that he isn't in pain - he's settled and relaxed and not exhibiting any signs of pain - but am still struggling with the "how much tiredness is normal?" thing somehow. My gut isn't screaming that something is wrong which is good but it's just awful seeing my big, powerful, athletic, strong boy like this. NOT from an aesthetic point of view I hasten to add - I hope everyone on here knows me well enough to know that he's loved unconditionally!!!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> The support on here is amazing .
> 
> After his potter about yesterday morning Kilo just slept all day. Greeted me like 'Kilo' this morning and then has just slept again. He moves for food and that's about it. No interest in going out this morning. I'll just go by what he wants.
> 
> ...


Bless him. His body has had a lot to deal with and needs to catch up with everything again.

Rupert is always more tired on steroids and he hasn't had as high a dose as Kilo. Rupert is often more cranky and less tolerant on them too, he goes from wanting to meet every dog to putting his head down or lying down and trying to avoid everyone who comes close. A 30 min walk would wipe him out for the day quite easily, he becomes very un Rupert like particularly at the start of a course of steroids but he does settle back down. I'm sure when Kilo's body gets used to it he'll adjust and be a bit more ready and raring to go.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Bless him. His body has had a lot to deal with and needs to catch up with everything again.
> 
> Rupert is always more tired on steroids and he hasn't had as high a dose as Kilo. Rupert is often more cranky and less tolerant on them too, he goes from wanting to meet every dog to putting his head down or lying down and trying to avoid everyone who comes close. A 30 min walk would wipe him out for the day quite easily, he becomes very un Rupert like particularly at the start of a course of steroids but he does settle back down. I'm sure when Kilo's body gets used to it he'll adjust and be a bit more ready and raring to go.


I might get the vet to just check him over tomorrow if he's still quite this wiped out, simply because I have never had an animal on a high dose of steroids before and the degree of weight loss / wastage seems quite alarming to me. Does Rupert become very thin? But then I don't want to feed him up too much in case they're only just really kicking in (the drinking only became very much more pronounced yesterday) and he gains a lot of weight. Agh. Tough stuff this!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

No one would ever think that of you Dogless, goodness we all know what Kilo means to you and all this must be tearing you apart. 

I know how quickly muscle wastage occurs just by Flynns loss after his six weeks crate rest after his ops and with a dog like Kilo it must be even more noticeable as he doesn't have the kind of coat to cover it. From what i've read so far it appears it may be genetic, happening in a few mentioned breeds more often, although nowhere have RR's been mentioned. Also over vaccination and chemical flea treatments could be a factor, something I steer well clear of personally. Has his breeder heard of it before in RR's or is this an out of the blue case? 

I can't begin to imagine how you feel seeing your poor boy like this, its such a vast difference to his normal self that it must be heart wrenching. The good thing is you caught it early and that's in Kilos favour isn't it? It seems to take a while for recovery but he'll get there with all the care he's getting - bless him. xx

Are vaccinations now to be stopped, as in Martys hypothyroidism case I wonder - we don't have boosters anyway but the initial diagnosing vet said not to give them in future. It's all a minefield knowing what to do for the best isn't it?

Hugs and licks to Kilo from all here, we know he's a toughie and will soon be fit as a fiddle again.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum said:


> No one would ever think that of you Dogless, goodness we all know what Kilo means to you and all this must be tearing you apart.
> 
> I know how quickly muscle wastage occurs just by Flynns loss after his six weeks crate rest after his ops and with a dog like Kilo it must be even more noticeable as he doesn't have the kind of coat to cover it. From what i've read so far it appears it may be genetic, happening in a few mentioned breeds more often, although nowhere have RR's been mentioned. Also over vaccination and chemical flea treatments could be a factor, something I steer well clear of personally. Has his breeder heard of it before in RR's or is this an out of the blue case?
> 
> ...


Yes, I've read all the theories and probably more besides...not been able to stop researching!!! .

His breeders had never heard of SRMA and they are unaware of any related condition anywhere in their lines. One dog has SLO but they are not related to Kilo in any way. They are being immensely supportive.

The boys never have chemical flea treatments, are chemically wormed as I feel that's essential when feeding raw and are vaccinated. They were last vaccinated in December. I am not sure what will be done in the future, although I am giving everything an awful lot of thought. He has always been the absolute picture of health.

The house is bloody quiet without wrestlemania and squeaky toys and tug .


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I bet it is and Rudi seems to know something's up with his bro too doesn't he? 

It's just so unbelievable that a dog the picture of health like Kilo could be struck down with such a debilitating illness. 

I only ever use Drontal but now I know of the worm count will be having that prior to worming in future, my lot don't eat intestines and guts so I don't know if that lessens their chances of getting worms anyway as I didn't think eggs travelled in the flesh/muscles of animals. One stupid vet who is against raw said my dogs should be wormed every six weeks - imagine that!
I've not had boosters either since Flynn developed head tremors within hours of his first one, terrified me that he'd been damaged in some way and not taken the chance since. They're decisions only we can make and they're not easy ones by a long shot. 

At least Kilo is eating and that's always a good sign, sounds like he's being the perfect patient too. xx


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> I might get the vet to just check him over tomorrow if he's still quite this wiped out, simply because I have never had an animal on a high dose of steroids before and the degree of weight loss / wastage seems quite alarming to me. Does Rupert become very thin? But then I don't want to feed him up too much in case they're only just really kicking in (the drinking only became very much more pronounced yesterday) and he gains a lot of weight. Agh. Tough stuff this!


Rupert does lose weight funnily enough, but in the same breath I don't know if its the rashes or the steroids?! Perhaps its just generally the body having a lot to deal with, I think that's probably a better guess.

Not sure if you remember but Rupert had a full course (so two) of puppy vaccinations in March and April. He weighed 28.9kgs at the start of that. Two weeks to the day of the first vaccine he had a groin rash so we had to cancel the second appt. I only have him a diddly amount of steroids, just 2.5mg and slathered him in steroid cream. He had his next vaccination three weeks to the day of the first. His weight had dropped to 26.4kgs, so he'd lost 2.5kgs in three weeks. He's really good on the scales and there is no doubting that his weights were correct. He was wearing the same collar and harness both times etc. His collar went onto the tightest hole as well and I could have done with making another one before it.

I would take him to the vets and relay your concerns for sure. Rupert has not had as high a dose as Kilo, BUT in the same breath, from what I gather Kilo will be on them for a fair while with a hopefully diminishing dose. Rupert would go from 15mg to 10mg to 5mg to 5mg every other day, to 2.5mg every other day, to 2.5mg twice a week to 2.5mg once a week to nothing. Then he'd have 4-6 weeks off them and need to go back onto 15mg again with another flair up. I think that's why his side effects were as pronounced, because he was on off on off. From what you say re Kilo I would very easily believe it is related to general being unwell and steroids. Hopefully his body will get used to them and the issues will diminish.

Re weight gain, I've never had Rupert put much weight on because I simply don't give him enough food to let him  I think they are more hungry and so people tend to give them more, or they are on reduced exercise but still eating the same amount. Rupert had roughly three road walks in the whole of April. It sounds bad but when you vaccinate the dog's immune system goes into overdrive to deal with it. With Rupert having a naff system, losing weight and having developed a rash I just kept him away from everything until I was sure he was doing OK. There is just so much you can't control and its very hard to pinpoint problems to specific causes if so much is going on.

I would definitely speak to the vet, get him weighed when you're there and keep a good eye on him. Even get a tape measure on him and monitor him that way for a bit. Hopefully it is all just a normal response, as I said I wouldn't be at all surprised if its just his body readjusting, but its always good to relay your concerns


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Rupert does lose weight funnily enough, but in the same breath I don't know if its the rashes or the steroids?! Perhaps its just generally the body having a lot to deal with, I think that's probably a better guess.
> 
> Not sure if you remember but Rupert had a full course (so two) of puppy vaccinations in March and April. He weighed 28.9kgs at the start of that. Two weeks to the day of the first vaccine he had a groin rash so we had to cancel the second appt. I only have him a diddly amount of steroids, just 2.5mg and slathered him in steroid cream. He had his next vaccination three weeks to the day of the first. His weight had dropped to 26.4kgs, so he'd lost 2.5kgs in three weeks. He's really good on the scales and there is no doubting that his weights were correct. He was wearing the same collar and harness both times etc. His collar went onto the tightest hole as well and I could have done with making another one before it.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much - good to know how other dogs respond. The bit in bold made me laugh...Kilo believes that tape measures were invented solely for the purpose of murdering innocent Ridgebacks. I'll know he's ill if he just accepts the Ridgeback Eating Monster .


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Not nice seeing them not themselves : ( I'm sure with the amount of love and care you give him he will be back to his very handsome self soon : ) well done Rudi being such good boy : ) both a credit to you ...


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Dogless said:


> The support on here is amazing .
> 
> After his potter about yesterday morning Kilo just slept all day. Greeted me like 'Kilo' this morning and then has just slept again. He moves for food and that's about it. No interest in going out this morning. I'll just go by what he wants.
> 
> ...


Bless his heart, he's really going through the mill isn't he. Try not to be too concerned about the sleeping - whilst he is sleeping, his body is resting and repairing, it's probably the best thing for him right now.

Maybe lactol (puppy milk) might be worth trying him with - it will help satisfy his thirst and keep him nicely hydrated, but it's full of calories and nutrients too, so will help add a bit of extra energy and fat to his diet without overloading his stomach with extra food. Calopet paste is very good for the same purpose too. Sorry, your head is probably frazzled with research, recommendations and suggestions, but it might be something worth looking into. I've used them a lot over the years with various dogs, always with good results.

I've got no doubt in my mind that with you looking after him, it won't be long until he's back on top form.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

SixStar said:


> Bless his heart, he's really going through the mill isn't he. Try not to be too concerned about the sleeping - whilst he is sleeping, his body is resting and repairing, it's probably the best thing for him right now.
> 
> Maybe lactol (puppy milk) might be worth trying him with - it will help satisfy his thirst and keep him nicely hydrated, but it's full of calories and nutrients too, so will help add a bit of extra energy and fat to his diet without overloading his stomach with extra food. Calopet paste is very good for the same purpose too. Sorry, your head is probably frazzled with research, recommendations and suggestions, but it might be something worth looking into. I've used them a lot over the years with various dogs, always with good results.
> 
> I've got no doubt in my mind that with you looking after him, it won't be long until he's back on top form.


Yes, puppy milk's a good idea I think. He's getting bigger portions to eat and more 'healthy extras' like Zooplus / F4D type snacks too. Rudi also came back from holidays a little skinny so he's also getting them, but not to the same extent.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Yes, puppy milk's a good idea I think. He's getting bigger portions to eat and more 'healthy extras' like Zooplus / F4D type snacks too. Rudi also came back from holidays a little skinny so he's also getting them, but not to the same extent.


Might be worth giving it a whirl then. Lactol with a whole raw egg and a spoonful of manuka honey beaten through (served warm is very popular) makes a tasty and very nutritious, high-cal snack  Harvey and Alfie always drop weight in the winter because everything is done at 100mph and they burn off more than they can physically eat (well, more than they can safely eat, should I say!) so they get that for supper, with increased meal portions, and it does help. My greyhounds have always had it when going through skinny phases too.

Continuing to keep the pair of you in my thoughts anyhow x


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

SixStar said:


> Might be worth giving it a whirl then. Lactol with a whole raw egg and a spoonful of manuka honey beaten through (served warm is very popular) makes a tasty and very nutritious, high-cal snack  Harvey and Alfie always drop weight in the winter because everything is done at 100mph and they burn off more than they can physically eat (well, more than they can safely eat, should I say!) so they get that for supper, with increased meal portions, and it does help. My greyhounds have always had it when going through skinny phases too.
> 
> Continuing to keep the pair of you in my thoughts anyhow x


I'll do that. Kilo has always been a bit on the skinny side unless I'm careful and I like lean but he is just too thin at present. Might just give him a little more energy too.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Seems like this poster's dog had a similar response, wonder how they got on? http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/266203-steroid-responsive-meningitis.html


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Not much to put on the update today, although I have been doing even more reading (if possible!) and it seems that this sleepiness can be expected for a couple of weeks. The steroid dose is lowered from tomorrow so I'm hoping that it will help a little with the lethargy.

Kilo just slept again all day yesterday apart from a beautiful 5 minutes where he brought me a toy and we had a play.

I am getting up during the night to get Kilo to go out for a wee; I feel really mean as he is so sleepy, but last night he was asleep on the sofa, woke up and started to wee before realising and dashing to the door. Poor boy, he's not had an accident since the first week I brought him home.

I am starting to feel guilty about Rudi just getting walks from home rather than any forests or beaches or the park, but I'm mixing them up for him in terms of route, taking different toys and doing different training sessions and he does seem happy. He's still being so, so good about not bothering Kilo but I bet he's missing all the play and companionship.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Rupert had an accident on our upstairs carpet once because I wasn't quick enough. He sat rooted to the spot with his head down as this wet patch grew..! He had never been told off for going inside but he looked mortified, makes you feel awful doesn't it? 

I know you will feel guilty about Rudi but you really shouldn't. I'm sure he's coping fine and it will do him good to break his routine a bit. It's not forever and he's still having more fun than a lot of other dogs I'd wager 

What dose is Kilo going onto now? Is it today you're speaking to the vet?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Rupert had an accident on our upstairs carpet once because I wasn't quick enough. He sat rooted to the spot with his head down as this wet patch grew..! He had never been told off for going inside but he looked mortified, makes you feel awful doesn't it?
> 
> I know you will feel guilty about Rudi but you really shouldn't. I'm sure he's coping fine and it will do him good to break his routine a bit. It's not forever and he's still having more fun than a lot of other dogs I'd wager
> 
> What dose is Kilo going onto now? Is it today you're speaking to the vet?


He had never really had a routine, we were always trying to mix up walks so he's OK. Suppose it's driving me a bit mad too, selfishly! He seems fine, having plenty of fun and plenty of training .

Kilo will be going onto 30mg / day (15mg BD). It's meant to be next Monday we speak to the vet as he'll review the steroids and A/Bs then too. I'll perhaps go earlier, keep toying with the idea. My gut is saying that the treatment's right and he is certainly eating, drinking, toiletting fine. When he's up his eyes are bright and he certainly no longer seems to have any pain, just wish I's been warned about this extreme lethargy. I sort of was as I asked about walks - said if he wanted to go out were short lead walks OK? The vet said if he wanted to that would be fine but I really wouldn't worry.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> He had never really had a routine, we were always trying to mix up walks so he's OK. Suppose it's driving me a bit mad too, selfishly! He seems fine, having plenty of fun and plenty of training .
> 
> Kilo will be going onto 30mg / day (15mg BD). It's meant to be next Monday we speak to the vet as he'll review the steroids and A/Bs then too. I'll perhaps go earlier, keep toying with the idea. My gut is saying that the treatment's right and he is certainly eating, drinking, toiletting fine. When he's up his eyes are bright and he certainly no longer seems to have any pain, just wish I's been warned about this extreme lethargy. I sort of was as I asked about walks - said if he wanted to go out were short lead walks OK? The vet said if he wanted to that would be fine but I really wouldn't worry.


Ahhh so its you that can't do with being cooped up, I know the feeling 

Steroids are funny because I think its very rare any of us can question how good they are; they can work miracles. But then you do have the downsides as well. They were/are a necessary evil for Rupert for so long, steroid free is this massive goal but when he gets rashes the priority is to get it gone and steroids certainly do that. He could be on a lot higher dose too, I don't know what Kilo weighs but my vets said they don't consider anything under 3mg/kg bodyweight to be a high dose at all.

How long is he awake for in the day do you think? Could always try and keep him up a bit longer with something interesting and see how he fairs, maybe he's just getting used snoozing this much. I'm sure he'll go back to bed if he's had enough and has the option.

Don't forget you can always ring the vets for a chat too. Rupert doesn't adore the vets and was worse in the past; its not easy taking a dog who's nervous AND unwell into a strange, smelly place where they remember getting prodded and poked. You could literally just ring and say 'I wondered if someone could speak to the vet/a nurse, my dog is sleeping X amount per day on these steroids and it just seems very extreme. He's also gotten very thin, is there anything I could/should do or shall we bring his appt forward?' No harm in it if it will give you reassurance, seems like you could do with it and at least if you've spoken to the vet or nurse you *know* to just keep on waiting this out a bit more.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Ahhh so its you that can't do with being cooped up, I know the feeling
> 
> Steroids are funny because I think its very rare any of us can question how good they are; they can work miracles. But then you do have the downsides as well. They were/are a necessary evil for Rupert for so long, steroid free is this massive goal but when he gets rashes the priority is to get it gone and steroids certainly do that. He could be on a lot higher dose too, I don't know what Kilo weighs but my vets said they don't consider anything under 3mg/kg bodyweight to be a high dose at all.
> 
> ...


Kilo weighs 48kg. 2mg / kg is the highest indicated dose for SRMA apparently, but he has been on 40mg / day which seems to be pretty standard for a large dog from what I've read.

He is awake for food and going for a wee. Occasionally gets up to greet me when I come back with Rudi. He literally can't stay awake, it's hard work getting him to wake up for a wee when I need to take him out as I'm off out with Rudi. ETA I don't want to try and keep an ill dog awake, yet don't want to leave him to rot on the sofa.

I may call the vet today.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Have you spoken to the vet about the lethargy at all? It might put your mind at rest.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Kilo weighs 48kg. 2mg / kg is the highest indicated dose for SRMA apparently, but he has been on 40mg / day which seems to be pretty standard for a large dog from what I've read.
> 
> He is awake for food and going for a wee. Occasionally gets up to greet me when I come back with Rudi. He literally can't stay awake, it's hard work getting him to wake up for a wee when I need to take him out as I'm off out with Rudi.
> 
> I may call the vet today.


Well that's pretty good then, that at least he seems to be feeling so much better without needing more. I'm a worry wort and always on the phone if unsure, I think my vets think I'm the crazy lady with the golden retriever


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Werehorse said:


> Have you spoken to the vet about the lethargy at all? It might put your mind at rest.


Will ring today or take Kilo in this afternoon - see how he goes as to which option I take.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Wish I had something constructive to say  but still keeping everything crossed for Kilo to have a very speedy recovery  Maybe you could get some puppy pad things to go under him on the sofa or a shower curtain   Good luck with the vets x


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> Wish I had something constructive to say  but still keeping everything crossed for Kilo to have a very speedy recovery  Maybe you could get some puppy pad things to go under him on the sofa or a shower curtain   Good luck with the vets x


Was thinking old blankets.....shower curtain ut:.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Was thinking old blankets.....shower curtain ut:.


Ive heard some people but an old shower curtain under the blanket to save things getting wet Singing:


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> Ive heard some people but an old shower curtain under the blanket to save things getting wet Singing:


OK, I'll let you off . I haven't got a shower curtain but do have a waterproof - backed blanket :idea:.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Dogless said:


> OK, I'll let you off . I haven't got a shower curtain but do have a waterproof - backed blanket :idea:.


I dream of haveing a waterproof - backed blanket :blink: :blink: :lol:


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Not read the whole thread but wish him a speedy recovery. Would've done it sooner, but with everything going on here, stupid 14 hour shifts and lack of sleep, I forgot 

Sending him our love!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> I dream of haveing a waterproof - backed blanket :blink: :blink: :lol:


Good Lord DB that's enough about your personal life  hmy:. It was in the sale from PAH, 3 Peaks, the other year.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Good Lord DB that's enough about your personal life  hmy:. It was in the sale from PAH, 3 Peaks, the other year.


 Singing:.................................

:ciappa:


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Oh no, I can't believe he still seems so sleepy.

I know you must feel so worried, especially when you have such an athletic dog.

I don't have anything helpful to add as I have never seen this before, I guess the body just needs time to heal itself. Just wanted to add my best wishes for Kilo to be up and back to his best soon.

xx


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogless said:


> The support on here is amazing .
> 
> After his potter about yesterday morning Kilo just slept all day. Greeted me like 'Kilo' this morning and then has just slept again. He moves for food and that's about it. No interest in going out this morning. I'll just go by what he wants.
> 
> ...


This happened to Muddy when he was very ill and on high doses of steroids.

Does Kilo have to be on such a high dose?

We found that the steroids actually made him a lot worse and he also lost quite a few of his pads.  Please keep Kilo to grass walks where possible because the pad loss was heartbreaking, worse than the loss of condition and extremely painful for Muddy


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## Strawberryearth (Apr 5, 2012)

Oh poor boy. It is heartbreaking when they are not themselves but I think you are right to let him do what he wants and leave him to sleep.

I assume he has regular check ups with the vet so a few Qs about his sleepiness and how the medication could be affecting him might help to ease your mind. 

Extra cuddles and love...even if they only make you feel better!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Worth a call to the vet just to ask eh? Poor baby, get well from here Kilo and hope you have more energy soon. xx


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Think the BW has been reading the posts about going back to the vet if he didn't pick up a tiny bit - he bounced to the door with a toy to go out when I came back with Rudi. Took him on a very short sniff about on the grass .

He has gone down two holes on his collar. A man walked past and told me he needed a good meal. Really? I hadn't noticed .



rona said:


> This happened to Muddy when he was very ill and on high doses of steroids.
> 
> Does Kilo have to be on such a high dose?
> 
> We found that the steroids actually made him a lot worse and he also lost quite a few of his pads.  Please keep Kilo to grass walks where possible because the pad loss was heartbreaking, worse than the loss of condition and extremely painful for Muddy


Yes, he needs to be on a high dose to suppress his immune system but the dose starts to be tapered very slowly down from tomorrow. Kilo had his first 'walk' in a few days this morning, it was a sniff about on some grass. I didn't know about pad loss, but it does make sense, thanks for telling me.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Well, we had a brief break in the rain and I went to play with Rudi in the garden - Kilo came to watch which really pleased me at least he's showing interest again. Rudi tried to get him to wrestle. It's fair to say that the answer was a very emphatic "No" .


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

I don't know how I missed this! Poor Kilo, and poor you! It must have been horrible for you both. I have no experience with this, so not much use but I hope he is all better soon, and that is great news that he is showing interest again! Hopefully it won't be too long until he is all back to normal


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Well, we had a brief break in the rain and I went to play with Rudi in the garden - Kilo came to watch which really pleased me at least he's showing interest again. Rudi tried to get him to wrestle. It's fair to say that the answer was a very emphatic "No" .


I think you will have to say no for him when he starts to feel a little better, for a while at least!!


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

Just pleased he is showing even small signs of improvement. Oh and give the bloke who thought he needed a good meal a cigar!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

rona said:


> I think you will have to say no for him when he starts to feel a little better, for a while at least!!


Yes, I suspect he'd overdo it!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Bagrat said:


> Just pleased he is showing even small signs of improvement. Oh and give the bloke who thought he needed a good meal a cigar!


Thanks - he has been pottering a bit round the house and garden again this afternoon. On the quest for food most likely but at least he's doing something!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Here is the boy himself. Please take no notice of the lion in the photo, Rudi killed it earlier, Kilo isn't in any danger.







Bit of weight lost - hard to see any ribs as the shine of his coat hides them in photos, but they are all visible. I'll get him back to just the last two visible as soon as I can.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Bless him he still looks as handsome as ever anyway but you see the tired look in his eyes. 

Can see some weight loss and as he's always been a trim boy it doesn't take much to show on a dog like him and with such a short coat too. He'll soon put it back on as he starts to get better eh? Good that he showed a little interest today, bet he sleeps for England again now.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Glad Kilo seems to be improving still, and is bright inbetween. Daisy peed on my bed once when on steroids, ruined the duvet and the mmatress cover but thankfully the matress didnt get it.

When my friends old dog used to have accidents she got some of the rubber type sheets you use for incontinent people. Other thought the vets usually have the disposible plastic sheets with the absorbent layer on top that are usually bigger and not so thick as the puppy training pads, perhaps you could get some from there for him to sleep in otherwise. Maybe you wouldnt have to worry so much about waking him to toilet him that way.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Glad Kilo seems to be improving still, and is bright inbetween. Daisy peed on my bed once when on steroids, ruined the duvet and the mmatress cover but thankfully the matress didnt get it.
> 
> When my friends old dog used to have accidents she got some of the rubber type sheets you use for incontinent people. Other thought the vets usually have the disposible plastic sheets with the absorbent layer on top that are usually bigger and not so thick as the puppy training pads, perhaps you could get some from there for him to sleep in otherwise. Maybe you wouldnt have to worry so much about waking him to toilet him that way.


His bed is a waterproof Tuffie mattress so not worried about that and covered in his blankets. The rest of his 'house' is vet bed so all is washable which is good. I'll continue to take him out I think as he seemed to get a bit distressed by starting to go in the house last night.


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

dogless only just seen this!

So sorry to hear about kilo! Keeping everything crossed here that he continues improving and goes on to make a full recovery xxx


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

oh bless, he really does not look himself does he.
Glad to hear he is making progress though.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

northnsouth said:


> oh bless, he really does not look himself does he.
> Glad to hear he is making progress though.


He looks an awful lot better than he has been - there's a noticeable difference today since about mid morning . Really hope he stays brighter this time.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I know I am banging on about every tiny, minute and boring (to all but me ) detail, but Kilo bounced to the door when I came in with Rudi again this evening and asked to go out . I didn't take him out as he's been pottering a lot this afternoon but they had a cow's ear each so I reckon I'm forgiven! He also, for the first time in a week, came for proper fusses .


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Only just seen this  sorry to hear Kilo's been so unwell, fingers crossed he continues to improve xx


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

So sorry to read kilo's been very unwell but I'm so pleased he's now on the mend. 

It'll take time for him to be back to his happy healthy self but he'll get there eventually.

Sending get well wishes from me, and big sloppy kisses from the boys.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

SLB said:


> Not read the whole thread but wish him a speedy recovery. Would've done it sooner, but with everything going on here, stupid 14 hour shifts and lack of sleep, I forgot
> 
> Sending him our love!


Seen it now . Sorry .


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Aww great news  In the pics he does look a little thin but by no means atrocious- and hopefully the worst has past now. A different condition obviously but at the height of Sheba's IBD she looked totally and completely emaciated-every spinal vertebrae was visible and it happened in no time at all, just days, that was when she went on the steroids permanently. I suppose it is the one downside to not having junk in the trunk!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> Aww great news  In the pics he does look a little thin but by no means atrocious- and hopefully the worst has past now. A different condition obviously but at the height of Sheba's IBD she looked totally and completely emaciated-every spinal vertebrae was visible and it happened in no time at all, just days, that was when she went on the steroids permanently. I suppose it is the one downside to not having junk in the trunk!


Yes; he looks worse to me stood up as his neck and back leg muscles seem to have gone to nothing, but not atrocious. His neck is odd to stroke - really thin -and his occipital bone is really sticking out. The blessing with Kilo is that he's still eating like a true Ridgeback .

IBD can be shocking can't it? A friend's RR had it, she wasn't really absorbing anything at all - went from being a bit too fat to very thin alarmingly fast.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Yes; he looks worse to me stood up as his neck and back leg muscles seem to have gone to nothing, but not atrocious. His neck is odd to stroke - really thin -and his occipital bone is really sticking out. The blessing with Kilo is that he's still eating like a true Ridgeback .
> 
> IBD can be shocking can't it? A friend's RR had it, she wasn't really absorbing anything at all - went from being a bit too fat to very thin alarmingly fast.


It's great that he has his appetite- and I know the steroids might be influencing that a bit but still, it's always a good sign when the body wants food!

Oh it's just _ghastly_. I honestly found it harder to manage IBD than cope with terminal cancer in my dogs. That sounds dreadful but it's true. Part of the problem is when they don't eat and it's pouring out their back-end in mucus and blood + they lose fluid or it accumulates in the abdomen, their electrolytes get thrown off, heart arrhythmias- it's just never ending and you never know what is going to set it off. And just the desperation to get her to eat *anything* at times was painful. Gosh, all that I do not miss at all. Heaven help anyone in that position today.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> It's great that he has his appetite- and I know the steroids might be influencing that a bit but still, it's always a good sign when the body wants food!
> 
> Oh it's just _ghastly_. I honestly found it harder to manage IBD than cope with terminal cancer in my dogs. That sounds dreadful but it's true. Part of the problem is when they don't eat and it's pouring out their back-end in mucus and blood + they lose fluid or it accumulates in the abdomen, their electrolytes get thrown off, heart arrhythmias- it's just never ending and you never know what is going to set it off. And just the desperation to get her to eat *anything* at times was painful. Gosh, all that I do not miss at all. Heaven help anyone in that position today.


That does sound horrendous, the sheer worry of it.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Dogless said:


> That does sound horrendous, the sheer worry of it.


It really was  And the worst thing about being steroid dependent for her was if she missed a dose (say through vomiting which is part of the IBD anyway)she would risk a sort of Addisons type crisis, compounded by her already existant heart failure, and would need to rushed round to the vets for an injection. I started every single day with a house and thorough garden "inspection" (she had 24/7 garden access) for vomit and diarrhoea ready for plan B. Still, those days are gone now and I shall stop taking your thread even further off topic! 

The main thing is Kilo is healing


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> I know I am banging on about every tiny, minute and boring (to all but me ) detail, but Kilo bounced to the door when I came in with Rudi again this evening and asked to go out . I didn't take him out as he's been pottering a lot this afternoon but they had a cow's ear each so I reckon I'm forgiven! He also, for the first time in a week, came for proper fusses .


You Bang on as you call it as much as you want, think the whole of PF breathes another sigh of relief along with you at each new positive update dogless. Not boring at all, great to hear of each little step nearer to having Kilo 100% again.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

It's so sad to read what his been through , glad his picking up now may it continue


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> It's so sad to read what his been through , glad his picking up now may it continue


Was it the same for your sister's dog? Was she on steroids for 4 months or longer do you know?


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Was it the same for your sister's dog? Was she on steroids for 4 months or longer do you know?


TBH i don't remember him being on them long term  He was treated under the PDSA so wonder if they offer the drugs long term or only guessed that was the issue but that was what my sister was told.

The first time he was very poorly for over 2 weeks (very stiff, not moving, eating, lost loads of weight) , i think they only stumbled upon it being responsive to steroids late on. 2nd time my sister took him the same day he showed 1st symptoms i believe he had a injection and sent home with tablets , he was fine within two days as they reacted very quickly, he is only a tiny 5-6kg dog , don't know if that makes any difference. Both episodes was around 12-18m old and nothing since , his now approx 5 (he was found as a stray pup)


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> TBH i don't remember him being on them long term  He was treated under the PDSA so wonder if they offer the drugs long term or only guessed that was the issue but that was what my sister was told.
> 
> The first time he was very poorly for over 2 weeks (very stiff, not moving, eating, lost loads of weight) , i think they only stumbled upon it being responsive to steroids late on. 2nd time my sister took him the same day he showed 1st symptoms i believe he had a injection and sent home with tablets , he was fine within two days as they reacted very quickly, he is only a tiny 5-6kg dog , don't know if that makes any difference. Both episodes was around 12-18m old and nothing since , his now approx 5 (he was found as a stray pup)


That's good, nice to know he's fine now. I know that fast treatment lessens the chance of a relapse. Not come across a dog from all my exhaustive reading that's been on steroids for less than 4 months. Vet said 4 - 6 months to me but they are being weaned down a little tomorrow, then again in 5 days so hopefully he'll be maintained on a small dose until he can finally come off them.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Keep checking this thread and it's so good when Kilo has responded to you or picked up his toy, no matter how brief it shows he's gradually improving - fab stuff! 

I liked the expression 'junk in his trunk' - that seems to fit Flynn to a tee  wouldn't notice weight loss on him for a good while - unlike Mr Universe there!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I am sorry ive only just seen this about poor Kilo..so glad to hear hes looking brighter today..hope he now goes from strength to strength xx


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Seems brighter again this morning .


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Great news!


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Hope your big handsome boy is feeling better : )


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Great news.
baby steps. He will be bouncing about soon.


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## IrishEyes (Jun 26, 2012)

Great news Dogless, soon he will be zooming about with Rudi not a care in the world!


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Have only just seen this, sorry to hear about what you've been going through. Good to hear Kilo is improving


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Been for a short walk again today, he's the same as yesterday so I'm happy . He seems small and not like my big powerful beastie but I'm sure he'll be right again soon!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Glad he is making more progress, Way to go Kilo!!


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

So glad he's much perkier  I hope he's make to himself soon.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

:thumbsup: Way to go Kilo - keep it up boy. xx


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum said:


> :thumbsup: Way to go Kilo - keep it up boy. xx


He has got a little better still throughout the day; more interested in what is going on by far. Even had a second very small walk. I'm seeing more of my BW returning :001_wub:.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Rather selfishly I havent been keeping up to date with the thread because I knew it would end up like this, me in tears like a right doodle
But I have been thinking about you and Kilo every day and I am glad he brought you that toy even for just 5 minutes today. 
You will get him back to full fitness in time, there is nothing that boy could ever wish for when he has you to look after him. 


Kindest Regards

Vicki x


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

babycham2002 said:


> Rather selfishly I havent been keeping up to date with the thread because I knew it would end up like this, me in tears like a right doodle
> But I have been thinking about you and Kilo every day and I am glad he brought you that toy even for just 5 minutes today.
> You will get him back to full fitness in time, there is nothing that boy could ever wish for when he has you to look after him.
> 
> ...


You just made me tear up there, you daft bat   .

Thank you so much Vicki, your thoughts and support mean a lot xx.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Little brighter still again today .

He has stopped losing weight / mass and I'm watching he doesn't go too much the other way with the steroids. Drinking loads so I'm getting up in the night for him like having a puppy again. Losing hair heavily too. And grumpy ut:.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Little brighter still again today .
> 
> He has stopped losing weight / mass and I'm watching he doesn't go too much the other way with the steroids. Drinking loads so I'm getting up in the night for him like having a puppy again. Losing hair heavily too. And grumpy ut:.


Yay sounding very positive 

Hope he's not losing too much hair, is it just coming out everywhere? Rupert is very grumpy on steroids, which is partly why I think we have the issues around other dogs if he's onlead now. I'd keep him onlead as he was grouchy and other people would let their dog come harass him because I'd fail to stop them approaching him. I learnt that lesson about shouting that he has some awful contagious disease to other walkers not minding their dogs far too late Singing:

Hopefully the grumpiness will ease and the peeing settle down.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Yay sounding very positive
> 
> Hope he's not losing too much hair, is it just coming out everywhere? Rupert is very grumpy on steroids, which is partly why I think we have the issues around other dogs if he's onlead now. I'd keep him onlead as he was grouchy and other people would let their dog come harass him because I'd fail to stop them approaching him. I learnt that lesson about shouting that he has some awful contagious disease to other walkers not minding their dogs far too late Singing:
> 
> Hopefully the grumpiness will ease and the peeing settle down.


He's just having a very heavy moult, so all over I think. Brushed him yesterday and I didn't know so much could come out of him - he's only got a short coat anyway and doesn't tend to moult much. Got enough to make a new BW almost.

Purposely avoiding other dogs at present with him being so tired and because he still seems a bit touch sensitive. Doesn't entertain even Rudi trying to play with him so I suspect he wouldn't have too much patience with being jumped on by other dogs.

I was going to get a high viz jacket printed with something, but then realised that approaching dogs can't read .

I hope the peeing settles down too, but if it doesn't, it doesn't. I'll do whatever i need to do for him even if that's having crappy sleep!


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## IrishEyes (Jun 26, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Little brighter still again today .
> 
> He has stopped losing weight / mass and I'm watching he doesn't go too much the other way with the steroids. Drinking loads so I'm getting up in the night for him like having a puppy again. *Losing hair heavily too. And grumpy ut:.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> You or the BW?  seriously, so glad to hear that he's improving steadily.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

IrishEyes said:


> Dogless said:
> 
> 
> > Little brighter still again today .
> ...


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Glad he is better still today dogless.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Step by step  good to see he's getting stronger. At this rate it looks like you caught it nice and early, well done on that front. 

Had you known about the moulting you coulda borrowed one of mine for practice.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Step by step  good to see he's getting stronger. At this rate it looks like you caught it nice and early, well done on that front.
> 
> Had you known about the moulting you coulda borrowed one of mine for practice.


Yes, it was caught within about 12 hours as far as I know . And no thanks . Kilo's heavy moult is probably a normal day for you  .

We had a short play and a training session with both dogs together today, really, really pleased. He wanted to go out again but this morning was enough so that was the alternative.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Bright again this morning. Clearly the hungriest dog on the planet - he shakes with excitement and teeth chatters as soon as he knows it's almost food time. Almost funny watching him try to have his morning wee whilst he's disco dancing .


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Great to hear he is getting better


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Although Kilo is brighter in himself a little more today I am rather concerned about the amount of muscle mass and weight he has lost within 10 days. Might go to the vet this afternoon rather than tomorrow (all drop in clinics). My main concern is that there is something else going on with him . Sure there isn't, but hubby came past us out walking today on his way back from the dentist and said Kilo looked like you'd expect a 7 year old dog to look like. His collar is on it's tightest fitting now and all the large muscles in his shoulders, back legs, neck, everywhere have just wasted to almost nothing.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

So glad to hear that Kilo is feeling so much better in himself.

What a worry, if he really seems in that bad a condition, I really know nothing about this condition so don't know what it takes out of the body or how it should be afterwards, but if you think there may be something else or are worried, I would say pop him to the vets, you clearly know him best.
Was there any tests done before?

Good luck at the vets if you do go. x


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> So glad to hear that Kilo is feeling so much better in himself.
> 
> What a worry, if he really seems in that bad a condition, I really know nothing about this condition so don't know what it takes out of the body or how it should be afterwards, but if you think there may be something else or are worried, I would say pop him to the vets, you clearly know him best.
> Was there any tests done before?
> ...


No, no tests as he was in superb condition and the symptoms were clear cut. Steroid treatment would have had to be delayed to do an LP which isn't always conclusive and if not an MRI. We went with aggressive treatment - I agreed with the vet's plan, felt that was the right thing to do.

The weight loss and muscle wastage may well be a side effect of the prednisolone but it seems a lot. Looks like medrone can be given alternatively if pred isn't 'agreeing' so will go and ask.

It's just reassurance I need really. If this is normal, then so be it.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

What a worry to see him wasting like that. When can the dosage of steroids be dropped? Hopefully he might start perking up then? 

Good luck at the vets.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

BessieDog said:


> What a worry to see him wasting like that. When can the dosage of steroids be dropped? Hopefully he might start perking up then?
> 
> Good luck at the vets.


It's been dropped once, next drop will be Monday I think.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Certainly worth getting him checked to put your mind at rest, although mine have only ever had a one off shot of steroids, and even that gave the excessive thirst and hunger and peeing, they have never been on a high enough dose or for long enough to cause any muscle wastage or lethargy/behavioural differences particularly. prednisone though can deffinately cause muscle wasting and fatigue although of course the illness itself can certainly cause fatigue and lack of excercise can in some dogs cause loss of muscle pretty quickly. It can too in some dogs cause hair loss which might explain his excessive moult.

Certainly worth checking and considering if there is something else that he can be given to do the trick as far as the meningitis.

I think Dexamethasone doesnt have such effects on the adrenal system thinking logically although I dont know for sure, as when diagnosing cushings and addisons they use a ACTH test and often a low dose and high dose dexamethasone test injecting dexamethasone on the latter two. So would assume although dont know for sure, its used because it doesnt upset whats going on with the adrenal system like preds would. Dont know though if its something that can be used in treatment of steroid resposinsive meningitis anyway. Might be worth asking.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks SDH, he's maybe overdone it this morning but I want to check. He seems quite sensitive to touch his spine again and is telling Rudi off pretty much for walking past him - again, may just be the steroids but no harm going a day early to the vet.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Thanks SDH, he's maybe overdone it this morning but I want to check. He seems quite sensitive to touch his spine again and is telling Rudi off pretty much for walking past him - again, may just be the steroids but no harm going a day early to the vet.


Just remembered something I had completely forgotten until now, The Neurologist Nanuq saw at Davies when she was having seizures who was absolutely fantastic. Has a special interest in steroid responsive meningitis. He has actually done some research papers on the subject, which Ive managed to find. Ill link you to the details just in case its any help.

Meet Davies' Veterinary Specialists

http://theses.gla.ac.uk/2491/1/2011LowrieMVM.pdf


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

There is some more things by him too.

http://www.veterinaryirelandjournal.com/Links/PDFs/CE-Small/CESA_Nov_2010.pdf


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks SDH, I had already found those but really kind of you to spend so much time helping.

Went to the vet.

Weighed Kilo - he has lost 5.5kg in 9 days . 

He doesn't like light shone in his eyes AT ALL but shows no more signs of SRMA. Temp normal. Pulse abnormally slow even for a very fit large breed. Going in morning for bloods. Told I can leave him or bring back in for treatment - biochem done in house but haem goes to another surgery so takes a few hours. I am going to stay as biochem results take about 15 minutes then take him home and go back in if I need to. 

The vet has said she is sure that I will need to go back and he will probably need more investigations. She asked tentatively if I knew what types of other things could cause meningitis symptoms apart from an auto immune disorder. I said I did. So she said he is young and very fit but thinks whatever he has will be a long, slow recovery. Do not like the sound of that.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

That is a considerable drop in weight for the time period isn't it? 
I suppose the best thing to do is to try not get too far ahead of yourself and see what the further investigations show. I know that is _so_ easier said than done but you'll drive yourself mad with worst case scenarios otherwise! 
At least it's only a wait till tomorrow for the bloods. 
Thinking of you both.

X


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Thanks SDH, I had already found those but really kind of you to spend so much time helping.
> 
> Went to the vet.
> 
> ...


Its a shame he is on steroids as Hypo thyroid which I think you said is in Ridgies? will cause bardycardia and a slow pulse, steriods can lower the T4 even further too, but I know the lab where these go prefer them to be off steroids and other certain meds for about 3 weeks before they test if possible.

All you can do is sit tight and see what the biochem and hemotology says.
Did they do it before he was on the steroids too so you have something to compare too results wise?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> That is a considerable drop in weight for the time period isn't it?
> I suppose the best thing to do is to try not get too far ahead of yourself and see what the further investigations show. I know that is _so_ easier said than done but you'll drive yourself mad with worst case scenarios otherwise!
> At least it's only a wait till tomorrow for the bloods.
> Thinking of you both.
> ...


Yes, it's huge - especially as he was lean anyway. It's all his muscle mass, they have just vanished.



Sled dog hotel said:


> Its a shame he is on steroids as Hypo thyroid which I think you said is in Ridgies? will cause bardycardia and a slow pulse, steriods can lower the T4 even further too, but I know the lab where these go prefer them to be off steroids and other certain meds for about 3 weeks before they test if possible.
> 
> All you can do is sit tight and see what the biochem and hemotology says.
> Did they do it before he was on the steroids too so you have something to compare too results wise?


Yes, RRs are prone to hypothyroid and that crossed my mind too. But why the huge weight loss? Agh. Such a puzzle.

No, they didn't do bloods first as they wanted to treat right away and it seemed straight forward.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I haven't got anything helpful to say, Dogless. But I'm thinking of you and hoping for positive updates.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

One thing I didnt know and just had a quick check ridgies can have Lyphyocytic thyroiditis which is auto immune.

Presenting Signs
Thyroiditis is the major cause of hypothyroidism (low activity of the thyroid gland) and many dogs may harbour the disease for years before showing clinical signs. While hypothyroidism is not life threatening, quality of life is substandard.* Signs include problems with the nervous system and muscles, such as paralysis, muscle-wasting,* foot-dragging and seizures. The skin of affected dogs may be dry and scaly, with hair-loss, skin infections, dark pigmentation and ongoing skin odour. The reproductive system is affected, with male dogs displaying infertility and a lack of libido, while bitches have an absence of heat cycles or may give birth to stillborn pups. There may be gastrointestinal problems with vomiting, diarrhoea and constipation. Other signs include eye problems (e.g. eyelid infections), liver inflammation, bleeding, loss of the sense of smell, mental dullness,* cardiac problems (e.g. slow heart rate)* and intolerance to cold.

Disorder - Lymphocytic thyroiditis - LIDA Dogs - Faculty of Veterinary Science - The University of Sydney

Nanuqs is the autoimmune version too and speaking to Dr Dodds once about it, she did say that having one auto immmune problem can make them susceptible too others, isnt SRM auto immune or can be one of the causes too? Nan wasnt fat or lethargic either with her thyroid.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> One thing I didnt know and just had a quick check ridgies can have Lyphyocytic thyroiditis which is auto immune.
> 
> Presenting Signs
> Thyroiditis is the major cause of hypothyroidism (low activity of the thyroid gland) and many dogs may harbour the disease for years before showing clinical signs. While hypothyroidism is not life threatening, quality of life is substandard.* Signs include problems with the nervous system and muscles, such as paralysis, muscle-wasting,* foot-dragging and seizures. The skin of affected dogs may be dry and scaly, with hair-loss, skin infections, dark pigmentation and ongoing skin odour. The reproductive system is affected, with male dogs displaying infertility and a lack of libido, while bitches have an absence of heat cycles or may give birth to stillborn pups. There may be gastrointestinal problems with vomiting, diarrhoea and constipation. Other signs include eye problems (e.g. eyelid infections), liver inflammation, bleeding, loss of the sense of smell, mental dullness,* cardiac problems (e.g. slow heart rate)* and intolerance to cold.
> ...


Thank you!! Yes, SRMA is auto immune. I will look into that some more and print out to take to discuss with the vet in the morning. It's worth a shot isn't it?


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## patterdalelass (Dec 7, 2012)

just caught up with this.
What a worry for you Dogless.
Having gone through numerous serious illnesses with my Bernese i know exactly how you must be feeling right now.In fact i feel sick now just thinking about it.
I dont know anything about Kilo's condition so i cant help.I can only pass on my very best wishes to you both.
I hope you yourself is being looked after too,i know i dont sleep or eat properly and forget to breathe properly too when one of my lot is ill.Ive now learnt to delegate jobs to my o.h. and to accept offers of help from others if they offer so i can concentrate on the dog.Its mentally exhausting when you are constantly thinking over and over as to what to do for the best for your dog.
Hugs to you both.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

patterdalelass said:


> just caught up with this.
> What a worry for you Dogless.
> Having gone through numerous serious illnesses with my Bernese i know exactly how you must be feeling right now.In fact i feel sick now just thinking about it.
> I dont know anything about Kilo's condition so i cant help.I can only pass on my very best wishes to you both.
> ...


Thank you. I felt really sick in the vet's exam room which is very unlike me!!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Thank you!! Yes, SRMA is auto immune. I will look into that some more and print out to take to discuss with the vet in the morning. It's worth a shot isn't it?


Ive just explored the connection with auto immune thyroiditis and connection to other auto immune dieases inclusing SRMA and found something interesting.

The Canine Thyroid Epidemic: Answers You Need for Your Dog - W Jean Dodds, W. Jean Dodds &amp, Diana Laverdure - Google Books

Read from central nervous sytem Immune complex Goencephalitis through to and including Poly 
Glandular auto immune syndrome, it seems to confirm that auto immune thyroiditis and other diseases listed above which include SRMA results in something caled Poly Glandular auto immune syndrome.

Its from Dr Dodds Book The canine tyroid epedemic answers you need for your dog.

My computer is playing up and I cant C+P and high light the bits for some reason, hopefully the link will work.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Kilo is so lucky to have you fighting in his corner Dogless , I hope you get some answers and that they are treatable. 

Thinking of you both x


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

The link does work sled dog - I must buy this book, she's outstanding in her field eh?


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## Jackie99 (Mar 5, 2010)

Nothing at all of use to add but have been reading daily and hoping for positive news for the beautiful Kilo. Sorry to hear he is unwell. It is upsetting to see him go from the picture of total health to so weak. I have every faith he will improve in due course especially with such a caring dedicated owner


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I am so sorry Dogless, Kilo is such a healthy boy and one of my faves on PF I hope he gets better soon. ((Hugs))


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Malmum said:


> The link does work sled dog - I must buy this book, she's outstanding in her field eh?


She certainly is, wonderful woman and so approachable, down to earth and caring too.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Oh Dogless, I really am so sorry you and Kilo are going through all of this.

Best wishes for today.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

I wish there was'nt a huge puddle in the middle of us or I would have been with you, good luck for today xxx


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

Hope all goes well today. Thinking of you! Big hugs to you and Kilo!


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Fingers crossed Kilos test results bring back something if not treatable and manageable, 

Thinking of you x x


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Well, biochemistry results normal. Haematology results later today, they will phone. No evidence even of steroids affecting his liver / kidneys which is good. Interesting theory that vet is going to research today is that the prednisolone is interacting in some way with the Suprelorin as that is a steroid based drug. Next step would be a LP and then to Belfast for an MRI if no joy. He certainly is bad tempered and quite aggressive today, An angry boy the vet said as he showed him his teeth .


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Well, biochemistry results normal. Haematology results later today, they will phone. No evidence even of steroids affecting his liver / kidneys which is good. Interesting theory that vet is going to research today is that the prednisolone is interacting in some way with the Suprelorin as that is a steroid based drug. Next step would be a LP and then to Belfast for an MRI if no joy. *He certainly is bad tempered and quite aggressive today, An angry boy the vet said as he showed him his teeth *.


Completely understandable, bless him, when he's feeling so out of sorts and probably just wanted to be in his bed.  Fingers crossed for some definitive answers soon and a plan of action to get him on the road to recovery.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Yikes this thread has gone the wrong way since I last posted!!

Must be awful, especially with Rudi who probably hasn't the foggiest what's going on, both poor lads. SDH is surprisingly bang on a lot of the time, the problem with auto immune diseases is that there are so many, some not even properly known of, and symptoms vary so much that its just a big muddle of what's and if's.

I hope the haematology is clear, but in the same breath that just carries on this confusion of what's really wrong, which isn't good either. I hope you can have some kind of definitive answer ASAP and continue or alter treatment accordingly so you all get some relief.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Yikes this thread has gone the wrong way since I last posted!!
> 
> Must be awful, especially with Rudi who probably hasn't the foggiest what's going on, both poor lads. SDH is surprisingly bang on a lot of the time, the problem with auto immune diseases is that there are so many, some not even properly known of, and symptoms vary so much that its just a big muddle of what's and if's.
> 
> I hope the haematology is clear, but in the same breath that just carries on this confusion of what's really wrong, which isn't good either. I hope you can have some kind of definitive answer ASAP and continue or alter treatment accordingly so you all get some relief.


The vet has taken the info I printed from SDH, he's doing some research and we're speaking this afternoon.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> The vet has taken the info I printed from SDH, he's doing some research and we're speaking this afternoon.


Hopefully he can come to a confident conclusion on what's causing these what seem to be secondary issues


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

The suprelorin is something that occured to me last night too. Interestingly enough Paddy Julies chester was on suprelorin, and started to get hair loss, and wasnt "right" He was thyroid tested and chester had hypothyroid too and apparently much better now he is on thyroid replacement. Although PJ had to fight for it, as he had had two tests and the hormones were low and the Thyroid secreting hormone was within the normal range, which isnt classic texbook, as its usually low T4 ect high TSH. Although like everything else all cases can be far from perfect textbook. In fact on checking for her about 35% if I remember rightly will still have TSH in the normal range and be hypo thyroid still.

Unfortunately although logged in I was doing other research on pedigrees with a friend so didnt actually get on until late and it wasnt until after I logged off I remembered the Implant. Then forgot about it again until now.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I didn't know Kilo had a Suprelorin implant, must have missed that or have I got it wrong? - knowing me most likely.

Either way I hope they can come to some conclusion today Dogless and your poor boy gets sorted. What an awful time you're having - (((hugs)))


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I didn't know Kilo had a Suprelorin implant, must have missed that or have I got it wrong? - knowing me most likely.
> 
> Either way I hope they can come to some conclusion today Dogless and your poor boy gets sorted. What an awful time you're having - (((hugs)))


Yes, he has one.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Well....BLOODS ALL NORMAL!!!! Vet rang the companies who manufacture Suprelorin and prednisolone and spoke to them at length, a Suprelorin interaction can be ruled out. The pred manufacturer said that they had had reports of a few dogs with an extremely sensitive response to them which fit Kilo's symptoms. So...we have made the call to wean them down and stop sooner rather than later and see what happens. Go back next week.

Sod's Law says that he's been brighter and pottering about more anyway .

What a roller coaster, I'm done in!


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

That is a huge relief, you can take a deep breathe and relax a little tiny bit now!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

The suprelorin and the way it works has got me wondering. Hope this will make sense dogless as its just ideas kicking around and dont know how feasible it is, and I havent joined the dots yet but you can maybe see where its going.

Suprelorin in something called Deslorelin, the release of the deslorelin is something called a GnRH antagonist, it works on the Gonadodotrophin releasing hormones in the pituatory gland so they dont produce Folicle stimulating hormone and lutenising hormone, none of these no testerosterone or sperm.

The pituatory is also responsible for releasing other hormones too, now what Im wondering is does this have a knock on effect on the production of the other hormones of which the thyroid and adrenal systems work off too.

quick version is the Hypothalamus produces CRH Corticotrophin hormone, Somastostatin which is a growth hormone inhibiting hormone, and TRH Thyrotrophin releasing hormone and from what I can make out GnRH.

They are then fed down to the Pituitary gland and they all apart from vasopressin which is an antidiuretic hormone work off the same anterior pituatory axis.
GH Growth Hormone, TSH Thyroid secreting hormone, ACTH Adrenalcorticotrophic
and FSH Folicle stimulating hormone and LT Luitenising Hormone. So can the suprelorin in a word bugger up and interfere with the other processes too.

What I did find seems to be a recent article clinical applications of GnRH antagonist Deslorelin in dogs and cats.

What I did find interesting was the conclusion.



> Conclusion
> Subcutaneous administration of the potent GnRH agonist deslorelin formulated in a low dose, slow-release implant is an effective reversible non-surgical castration of male dogs. In addition to the ability to inhibit testicular function, deslorelin has great potentials of therapeutic aspects to various disorders that related to the patho-physiological regulation of the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis. *However, further investigation on its therapeutic efficacy and adverse effects remains to be elucidated as the actual mechanism of GnRH action, either directly or indirectly, on organs other than the reproductive system is not fully understood.*
> 
> http://www.vet.chula.ac.th/tjvm/full_text/v41/413/pdf/41supplPDF/08 TJVM_Review.pdf


What also made me wonder further about the interaction with other things like adrenal and thyroid was this. Its used in ferrets with Adrenal disease.



> Clinical and endocrine responses to treatment with deslorelin acetate implants in ferrets with adrenocortical disease.
> 
> Wagner RA, Piche CA, Jochle W and Oliver JW.
> 
> ...


Ok its ferrets but it may back up the theory if it has an affect on adrenal disease in those, it may do something to normal working or the adrenal system, and maybe interfere with the steroid treatment Kilos on perhaps.

What also makes me wonder is that adrenal disease in ferrets is done by assaying the adrenal sex hormones, not figured out yet where they come in as regards to the adrenal system/function but depending on what they actually do in the function,
could the suprelorin have an affect on the adrenal sex hormones too?



> Adrenal Disease In Ferrets
> 
> Adrenal disease is commonly seen in ferrets over 3 years old and is caused by adrenal gland tumours often associated with the left adrenal gland (60%  70%). Females appear to be more affected than males (70%). Clinical signs include significant hair loss, muscle wastage, aggression and vulval enlargement in females.
> 
> Diagnosis can be confirmed by assaying the adrenal sex hormones, oestradiol (E2), 17-Hydroxy-Progesterone (OHP) and cortisol. Cortisol alone is not a good diagnostic test for ferret adrenal neoplasia. Often the tumour has differentiated in such a way that cortisol is not its principal product.


What I also noticed when researching suprelorin too. That under suprelorin there seems to be glowing reports, when I searched under Deslorelin I found this.

http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB...sidue_Limits_-_Report/2009/11/WC500013629.pdf

A lot of it granted is about other routes of Deslorelin in different species but there seems a lack of studies in various aspects.

Dont know if this is any help dogless or will give the vet some thoughts too and she may fill in the blanks.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Well....BLOODS ALL NORMAL!!!! Vet rang the companies who manufacture Suprelorin and prednisolone and spoke to them at length, a Suprelorin interaction can be ruled out. The pred manufacturer said that they had had reports of a few dogs with an extremely sensitive response to them which fit Kilo's symptoms. So...we have made the call to wean them down and stop sooner rather than later and see what happens. Go back next week.
> 
> Sod's Law says that he's been brighter and pottering about more anyway .
> 
> What a roller coaster, I'm done in!


Thats great news!! just realised while I was busy we cross posted and you had had some great news. Just Bin all the stuff I found in that case


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Thats great news!! just realised while I was busy we cross posted and you had had some great news. Just Bin all the stuff I found in that case


It's exceptionally useful still SDH. Sod's Law is that he started to brighten up again as soon as we left the vets. Pleased though.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Glad his bloods are all normal, Dogless. Hopefully it is just a rather extreme reaction to the steroids then and it'll calm down as he is weaned off them. x


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Great news that his bloods have come back normal and he's a bit more perky. Well done Kilo boy, hope ti's the turn around to this horrible complaint.

Rep for your post sled dog - so very informative. I'm now wondering if chemical castration can have reactions with certain drugs can castration do the same? Since there seems to be some suggestion that cushings and hypothyroidism may be more prevalent in neutered dogs - studies still on going but interesting all the same. I firmly believe that hormones link to each other and taking one away breaks the chain, leaving the whole system messed up. But then that's another thread - sorry Dogless.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Great news that his bloods have come back normal and he's a bit more perky. Well done Kilo boy, hope ti's the turn around to this horrible complaint.
> 
> Rep for your post sled dog - so very informative. I'm now wondering if chemical castration can have reactions with certain drugs can castration do the same? Since there seems to be some suggestion that cushings and hypothyroidism may be more prevalent in neutered dogs - studies still on going but interesting all the same. I firmly believe that hormones link to each other and taking one away breaks the chain, leaving the whole system messed up. But then that's another thread - sorry Dogless.


There is no evidence of drug interactions with Suprelorin. http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB..._Discussion/veterinary/000109/WC500068832.pdf


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

I think that is great about the bloods! Fantastic news to at least have ruled out some nasty things. 

I hope he takes to the weaning process well and that the SRM is settled.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Well....BLOODS ALL NORMAL!!!! Vet rang the companies who manufacture Suprelorin and predisposition and spoke to them at length, a Suprelorin interaction can be ruled out. The pred manufacturer said that they had had reports of a few dogs with an extremely sensitive response to them which fit Kilo's symptoms. So...we have made the call to wean them down and stop sooner rather than later and see what happens. Go back next week.
> 
> Sod's Law says that he's been brighter and pottering about more anyway .
> 
> What a roller coaster, I'm done in!


I'm sure it was the Pred that made Muddy so bad................


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Dogless said:


> There is no evidence of drug interactions with Suprelorin. http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB..._Discussion/veterinary/000109/WC500068832.pdf


Oh I didn't mean that Dogless - I meant interfering with gonads.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Oh I didn't mean that Dogless - I meant interfering with gonads.


I see. I have never intended to surgically neuter either of mine but think that Kilo may well be once he's back to full health. Tough decision though!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> I see. I have never intended to surgically neuter either of mine but think that Kilo may well be once he's back to full health. Tough decision though!


I had to google to find out what one is, I'd never heard of it..! Can I be nosey and ask if there is any particular reason you got one for Kilo and why you would consider neutering him surgically now?

Glad his bloods are normal and he seems perkier


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> I had to google to find out what one is, I'd never heard of it..! Can I be nosey and ask if there is any particular reason you got one for Kilo and why you would consider neutering him surgically now?
> 
> Glad his bloods are normal and he seems perkier


Because we meet bitches in season as a matter of course, often offlead or they are walked right past the house. 
New neighbour but one's bitch due in season. 
Returning of posturing if other males postured at him. 
Bitching constantly.

It has settled him, no bitching, less posturing. Other males that dislike entire males no longer react - one in vet today's handler said Kilo must be neutered as his dog was tolerating being near to him. May get another implant, may leave intact or may surgically neuter. See how he is once his health is OK.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Dogless said:


> I see. I have never intended to surgically neuter either of mine but think that Kilo may well be once he's back to full health. Tough decision though!


Very tough Dogless, you probably know my feelings and if it turns out that Bruce too has cushings or hypothyroidism I'll be kicking myself. Being tested next week when I have the cash as he's not insured - foolish of me but it's even more expensive than the Mals insurance!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Because we meet bitches in season as a matter of course, often offlead or they are walked right past the house.
> New neighbour but one's bitch due in season.
> Returning of posturing if other males postured at him.
> Bitching constantly.
> ...


Oh wow, that's really positive. Like I said I hadn't heard of it; thanks for explaining the difference it made to Kilo.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Very tough Dogless, you probably know my feelings and if it turns out that Bruce too has cushings or hypothyroidism I'll be kicking myself. Being tested next week when I have the cash as he's not insured - foolish of me but it's even more expensive than the Mals insurance!


I do know your feelings. It is something that I can assure you I have considered extremely carefully indeed. To suggest that Kilo's problems are somehow the direct result of my actions whilst he is still ill and I am still worried and upset is a little insensitive and hurtful TBH.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I never intended to direct that at you, I thought I was referring to MY actions not yours Dogless. You haven't had him castrated so I don't see the link  but I'm sorry if you've taken it the wrong way - definitely not intended at all. I don't see the link between my mentioning Cushings, Hypothyroidism and what Kilo currently is going through - is there a link at all?

I think when you look at posts on here regarding behaviour problems the majority are by castrated dogs and mine are no exception!


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

OMG only just seen this thread, sending you and your wonderfull dogs all very big hugs ,,, xxxxxx


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I never intended to direct that at you, I thought I was referring to MY actions not yours Dogless. You haven't had him castrated so I don't see the link  but I'm sorry if you've taken it the wrong way - definitely not intended at all. I don't see the link between my mentioning Cushings, Hypothyroidism and what Kilo currently is going through - is there a link at all?
> 
> I think when you look at posts on here regarding behaviour problems the majority are by castrated dogs and mine are no exception!


I took it as that because you said:



Malmum said:


> Oh I didn't mean that Dogless - I meant interfering with gonads.


 when discussing it earlier in the thread. I have had him castrated, chemically.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I meant castrating - because of my stance on it. Chemically castrating is short lived isn't it? I don't really know much about that and I doubt it would do anything within months anyway, even if castrated. Marty had been done for three years before his problem and Bruce and Britches seven. Not just a few months - that's ridiculous!


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

Malmum said:


> I never intended to direct that at you, I thought I was referring to MY actions not yours Dogless. You haven't had him castrated so I don't see the link  but I'm sorry if you've taken it the wrong way - definitely not intended at all. I don't see the link between my mentioning Cushings, Hypothyroidism and what Kilo currently is going through - is there a link at all?
> 
> I think when you look at posts on here regarding behaviour problems the majority are by castrated dogs and mine are no exception!


You want to talk about castration things and behaviour problems linked to them? Start a thread on it then. I can see how your comments can be seen an insensitive. Guessing what could be wrong with someone else's dog can really start to give the owner some worry.

Dogless, I wish you and Kilo the very best of luck and care.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

LurcherOwner said:


> You want to talk about castration things and behaviour problems linked to them? Start a thread on it then. I can see how your comments can be seen an insensitive. Guessing what could be wrong with someone else's dog can really start to give the owner some worry.
> 
> Dogless, I wish you and Kilo the very best of luck and care.


I was initially responding to sled dogs post on reactions re Deslorelin - which Dogless said is not what Kilo has had. Reactions re castration, not chemical castration - I didn't even mention chemical castration.

I'm actually guessing what may have caused *my dogs* conditions - not someone else's!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I thought that you were criticising my castration of Kilo Malmum as he has been, no matter the mechanism and whether temporary or permanent. Whatever may or may not be the case is there any chance that the thread isn't derailed by talk of bandwagons etc?

I can't stress how much this thread has supported me over the past week or more as I have been on my own with this and selfishly like to feel that I am not totally alone, everyones' ideas and words have helped enormously.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I thought you knew me better.  There is a vast difference between Endocrine diseases and SRM, the former is what I was referring to re castration - hence the winky eye! 

Have removed the 'bandwagon' comment as it's offended. Will stay out of this thread now because I'm not here to cause more stress than you already have!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I thought you knew me better.  There is a vast difference between Endocrine diseases and SRM, the former is what I was referring to re castration - hence the winky eye!
> 
> Have removed the 'bandwagon' comment as it's offended. Will stay out of this thread now because I'm not here to cause more stress than you already have!


See, I took the winky eye as a dig, as SDH had been discussing the possibility of Kilo having an endocrine disease - that was the reason she'd posted that info for me.

That's the danger of the internet isn't it? Happens all the time on here. I do know you and I also know your very strong views which you're of course entitled to, I just felt upset because of the way I'd interpreted your posts. I have also very, very much appreciated your kind words. If I have, in turn, caused you offence then I apologise.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

How's that little puppy dog of yours today


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Bright again thanks for his breakfast, asleep now but that's normal. He even play bowed at Rudi for the first time . When Rudi reciprocated he growled at him though. I first realised he was in pain when he screamed when wrestling with Rudi so maybe Rudi = pain in his mind still. I'm sure once they're out and about again he'll realise that all is OK.


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## Mollyspringer (Aug 16, 2011)

So pleased he's a bit brighter, this has been a terrible time for you. I'm sure he'll forget all the bad bits when he's feeling more like his old self. Bet he's missed his playtimes with his buddy xx


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

They do seem to cotton on when the other is'nt to clever, although some end up haveing a chunk takeing out of their side before they believe the other one


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> They do seem to cotton on when the other is'nt to clever, although some end up haveing a chunk takeing out of their side before they believe the other one


:yikes::yikes:. I have been chuffed with Rudi, he can be a pushy, obnoxious little bugger and thought I'd be policing them all the time. But no, he's proved to have a sensitive side too :laugh:.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Dogless said:


> :yikes::yikes:. I have been chuffed with Rudi, he can be a pushy, obnoxious little bugger and thought I'd be policing them all the time. But no, he's proved to have a sensitive side too :laugh:.


Just wait till his spots come through


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> Just wait till his spots come through


Think this one was born with 'em :eek6:


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## patterdalelass (Dec 7, 2012)

so pleased that Kilo is feeling a little better.Hopefully onwards and upwards from now on.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Bright again thanks for his breakfast, asleep now but that's normal. He even play bowed at Rudi for the first time . When Rudi reciprocated he growled at him though. I first realised he was in pain when he screamed when wrestling with Rudi so maybe Rudi = pain in his mind still. I'm sure once they're out and about again he'll realise that all is OK.


Glad Kilo is bright this morning adnd even showing signs of inviting Rudi to play which he hasnt done since it started.

As we already knew and the vet has now confirmed preds can cause the muscle wastage and lethargy and looks like that together with the illness until it gets more and more under control is in fact just the cause of the problem.

I hope too Dogless I didnt worry you with the suggestions and links, it was more of a precaution really, to ensure, if needed that there may be nothing more or anything that may be interfering with the treatment. Sometimes when they have a problem it doesnt hurt to be one step ahead just in case and have thoughts where to go next just in case.

Re Kilo and Rudi and the episode this morning, Ive found that sometimes when they really do start feeling a lot better they just try and do a bit more anyway as they feel better and want to do it, but in fact they are not quite to recovered completely as they think they might be so can just do a bit too much too soon, which it sounds like what Kilo may have done. He felt better wanted to play and then thought better of it. As you say too he may have suddenly associated it with the original pain, they do associate things. A yorkie near me did something in the garden and hurt itself and cried out in pain and for several days after wouldnt go in the garden. Was fine after though so I wouldnt worry.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Glad Kilo is bright this morning adnd even showing signs of inviting Rudi to play which he hasnt done since it started.
> 
> As we already knew and the vet has now confirmed preds can cause the muscle wastage and lethargy and looks like that together with the illness until it gets more and more under control is in fact just the cause of the problem.
> 
> ...


SDH, you didn't worry me at all, I have saved and / or printed out an awful lot of the info you have given me. You have been absolutely amazing, as you always are, with all your help. I cannot thank you enough .

Poor little Rudi this morning couldn't believe his luck when Kilo asked him to play...looked quite put out when the offer was withdrawn :laugh:.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> SDH, you didn't worry me at all, I have saved and / or printed out an awful lot of the info you have given me. You have been absolutely amazing, as you always are, with all your help. I cannot thank you enough .
> 
> Poor little Rudi this morning couldn't believe his luck when Kilo asked him to play...looked quite put out when the offer was withdrawn :laugh:.


Im sure Rudi soon will be paid off for all his sensitive behaviour and understanding and will soon have his play mate back dogless. The main thing is that each and every day Kilo is obviously feeling better and wants to do that bit more which is the main thing, might be baby steps, but they are all steps in the right direction to full recovery.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Hurrah for improvements  It must be the tackiest, corniest term EVER but it really is a rollercoaster isn't it? 

I think you've dealt with it really well too. Especially making the effort to be so well informed about everything- I think it makes all the difference.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Hope both lads are behaving themselves today


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Hope both lads are behaving themselves today


They are . Both have been for walks (separate). The real Kilo is coming back. He's a tired, thin version, but much, much better .


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

Dogless said:


> They are . Both have been for walks (separate). The real Kilo is coming back. He's a tired, thin version, but much, much better .


That's fantastic news


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Great news! Onwards and upwards now I trust! :thumbsup:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Great news he is evn better stil today:thumbsup:


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

Looks like he's improving every day :thumbsup: Long may it continue, the big ginger fella has been in my mind.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Im so pleased to hear this:thumbsup:


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## patterdalelass (Dec 7, 2012)

Brilliant news..well done Kilo,keep it up.


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

been to scared to click! So pleased I did!

WAY TO GO KILO!!!!!!!!


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## lotlot (Mar 28, 2011)

I've been watching this thread like a hawk hoping for good news!! You must have been worried sick! I'm so glad that Kilo seems better. I hope he continues on with a speedy recovery xx


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

So pleased Kilo is stepping out in the right direction. Much praise due to his human carer I think!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dogless said:


> They are . Both have been for walks (separate). The real Kilo is coming back. He's a tired, thin version, but much, much better .


Brilliant news :thumbsup:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Dogless said:


> See, I took the winky eye as a dig, as SDH had been discussing the possibility of Kilo having an endocrine disease - that was the reason she'd posted that info for me.
> 
> That's the danger of the internet isn't it? Happens all the time on here. I do know you and I also know your very strong views which you're of course entitled to, I just felt upset because of the way I'd interpreted your posts. I have also very, very much appreciated your kind words. If I have, in turn, caused you offence then I apologise.


Just seen this Dogless and having re read the whole section of posts I can see why you thought I was being insensitive. I didn't mean it to come across that way but you're right it does. 
This thread was not a place for me to be discussing my dogs anyway and I apologise for doing so, neither the time or place for me to be making such remarks and they definitely weren't meant as a dig at you. As my daughter so very well put it: 'Mum, sometimes when you have a bee in your bonnet you should leave it there!' So I do apologise for making you think for one minute I was aiming my remarks at you personally. 
Knowing how I felt when Flynn was so poorly I can imagine how worried and upset you are at present and really don't want to give you any more grief than you have already. Apologies from me for upsetting you at such a stressful time, it was very un called for.

On a brighter note I'm glad that Kilo is making steady progress and hope he continues to do so. Little by little he seems to be getting back to his normal self - thank goodness.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Malmum - thank you, I was feeling awfully sensitive too . 

Kilo is good again today, been out for a walk, pretty bright . Pretty ploddy, but I guess that's the steroids!


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm really glad he's starting to feel better


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Yayyyy for Kilo! What's the plan now, do you have to go back to the vets for anything else in the near future or is it progress monitoring for the time being?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

GoldenShadow said:


> Yayyyy for Kilo! What's the plan now, do you have to go back to the vets for anything else in the near future or is it progress monitoring for the time being?


Back day after tomorrow for a review .


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Bright again, still not interested in play with Rudi at all; back to vet tomorrow for a check. I am happy to say that this thread is now boring (touch wood!!)  so will let it run it's natural course. Thanks all so very, very much for all your help and support .


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Dogless said:


> Bright again, still not interested in play with Rudi at all; back to vet tomorrow for a check. I am happy to say that this thread is now boring (touch wood!!)  so will let it run it's natural course. Thanks all so very, very much for all your help and support .


Hopefully everything will stay boring, Dogless. I think you've had your fair share of excitement over the past few weeks!


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## BeagleOesx (Oct 9, 2009)

Am so sorry Dogless, completely missed this thread - I can't believe the worrying few weeks you must have been having. Am so pleased that Kilo seems to be on the mend and hopefully he'll be back to fighting with his lil bro soon. 

Give that big hunk of gorgeousness an ear rub from me


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Glad he is bright again today dogless, hope the vets pleased with the progress on his check up tomorrow.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Glad he is bright again today dogless, hope the vets pleased with the progress on his check up tomorrow.


Sure he will be, hoping to drop the steroid dose again, want to get him off them!! Then I'll try and stay away if I can...fingers crossed!!!! No more space lobber toys :scared:.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Sure he will be, hoping to drop the steroid dose again, want to get him off them!! Then I'll try and stay away if I can...fingers crossed!!!! No more space lobber toys :scared:.


I know Just how you feel. Ive had times when I feel Im never out of the vets,
ones started they have all started with something in one way or another. Ive asked them many a time if I can just pitch a tent and live in the garden out back to save driving backwards and forwards

Hoping you can lower the steroids again once he has been seen tommorrow.


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## patterdalelass (Dec 7, 2012)

I remember all to well a few years ago when one of my Bernese had been diagnosed with malignant histiocytosis.We were devastated to say the least.One morning o.h went out to feed the dogs and came back saying he couldnt find the chain that we used to fasten Indie/Rio's(mother/daughter)door back to the fence.I went to look and couldnt find it anywhere,Rio was and still is very into scoffing what she shouldnt so i just knew where it was:scared:This was Saturday evening so off we went to vet as i just couldnt risk waiting till Monday.He x-rayed and there it was,balled up in her tum.He told us that that was fine and it would come out on its own.Had it not been in a ball he would have operated as it could have cut her intestine.I spent the next few days worried sick that something would go wrong with her but on the third day she pooped it out and was none the worse but we had yet another large bill to pay on top of the bill for Tula's cancer:sad:
You are not alone Dogless.Im sure my lot draw lots as to who is going to be ill/in mischief next!!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Been for Kilo's check up today - he has lost another half a kg which I'm disappointed and slightly worried with, but we are reducing the steroid dose again so I hope that he'll be gaining weight again soon.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Been for Kilo's check up today - he has lost another half a kg which I'm disappointed and slightly worried with, but we are reducing the steroid dose again so I hope that he'll be gaining weight again soon.


He'l sharp put it back on when he's feeling more spotty  x


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## Stellabella (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi Dogless
I completely missed this as I don't come on very often - just read the whole thread now. How is Kilo now? I hope he's feeling better. It's a slow, slow journey though. I am going through the same with my Cavalier Asha right now and understand what you are going through. Rollercoaster doesn't even cover it :crying: 

She started being ill on March 18th, but wasn't diagnosed for 10 days. She started by not wanting to jump onto the sofa, but within 24 hours was depressed, completely lethargic, in pain and had a high temperature. The vet thought it was an infection of unknown origin and treated her with antibiotics and loxicom. She didn't really respond, she was losing weight dramatically and her legs went from under her a few times, so was given more antibiotics and blood tests which were normal. 
On the morning of the 26th I took her back as I wasn't happy - they were going to do a scan but her symptoms were so vague and she hadn't really got any worse they said to give her a couple more days, but that afternoon she suddenly collapsed and was unable to move her back end. She also became doubly incontinent and was in a lot of pain.

She had to be starved overnight so they could do x-rays the following day, but by that time she was so immobile that they didn't need to anaesthetise her to x-ray her spine - though still nothing showed.

She was referred to the Willows the following day and had an MRI and LP there, and they diagnosed Meningomyelitis - inflammation of the meninges, the brain and the spinal cord. It was so bad they couldn't get fluid from the LP, too much inflammation. It was explained to me about steroid responsive CNS disease, and started her on a 6 month course of steroid and chemotherapy drugs, Prednisolone and Azathiopine, and gabapentin for the pain, though she came off gabapentin after 10 days. 

After 2 weeks her bloods were checked, and her liver profiles were off the scale, so she was started on liver meds too, Destolit and Hepatosyl. She had a crisis after her bile acid tests, when I thought I was going to lose her - she bloated up like a balloon and panted manically for the whole night. I decided in the night that I would take her to be pts in the morning as I couldn't stand to see her suffer. By the morning though, her tummy had gone down, and she continued to settle - the vet said it must have been gas and that she had been very lucky. At this point her steroids were reduced by a third, and she coped ok with that.

Things settled then for a while, but she never regained bladder or bowel control, though it might come back later on. I modify baby nappies for her, and she's adapted to that. She was also a bit weak on her legs, but never let it stop her, she is a determined, feisty little dog. I started giving her weaning puppy food, as she went from 8.4kg down to 6.5 in a couple of weeks, and that has helped fill her out a bit. She got her sparkle back even though she tired easily, she was much more her old self.

All was going well until the week before last when she developed cystitis. Again, she didn't respond to the first lot of antibiotics, and had to have a second course on top. This coincided with another reduction in steroids. She started having pain that didn't fit with the UTI, and was given tramadol, which was useless. When I saw the vet on Thursday the plan was to test her urine after all the antibiotics were finished, and if she was still getting leg weakness we would up the steroids again.
Then Friday she became very weak in the legs and had a couple of falls, and on Saturday morning she lost the use of them completely. I took her to the vet (3rd time that week) and he said it was time to consider euthanasia. I asked for time, just the weekend to see if she responded to putting the steroids back up and having gabapentin again, but was fully expecting to be taking her on her final journey today.

But....like the rollercoaster this is, on Sunday she stood up and tottered a few steps, yesterday she was teetering around all day, and today she's quite confident on her legs, although wibbly wobbly. She's even happy to jump off the sofa! She isn't showing any signs of pain now and I've been reducing the gabapentin. 

Sorry this has been so long - it was easier for me to write out her full story then to pick out odd bits ... I hope you can find something in there that helps! The biggest thing I think is how quickly they can change from well to unwell - and back again! It is a long haul treatment, there's no way of knowing if after the 6 months that she will sustain a recovery without the steroids. Reading this thread has given me hope today, where I couldn't see any at all over the weekend. I'm sure you have those feelings too Dogless, that change from one minute to the next ... watching them so closely, it drives me insane with worry!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Hi Stellabella, I am so very sorry you've had / are having a rough time too. Kilo is much better thank you although did have diarrhoea over the weekend which we managed to sort without another vet trip for A/Bs which I feared might be the case at first due to his suppressed immune system.

I am sorry that it took so long for Asha to be diagnosed - I was very lucky that my vet was on the ball with that - but pleased for you and have everything crossed that she will continue to improve. It really is a massive worry and you can type on here or PM whenever you like if you need to chat.

Ref getting weight on, SixStar gave me a fab 'recipe' of Lactol, raw egg, manuka honey. Kilo has been having it for 'supper' and he's put some back on which is a relief - just put it here in case you're having trouble getting any weight back on Asha.


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## Stellabella (Jan 8, 2009)

Great to hear Kilo is doing so much better, it all gives me hope for the future. Everything crossed that he continues to get better and stronger! 

Asha has put some weight back on, with the weaning food, and a little extra meat to hide all her tablets in - I also give her manuka honey and the probiotic drinks. I have to be careful as she does tend to look bloated sometimes, but I think that is the steroid more than anything. 

My biggest worry now is the vet, I think there are conflicting views in the practise on what is fair for her, but the one that did the referral and is fully briefed by the specialist vet feels that she has plenty going for her. In fairness, these setbacks have been so alarming, but thankfully quite shortlived. Any pain she's had has been quickly controlled, and I'm so in tune with her needs that I'm at the vet almost before there's anything to see!

Just to complicate things she has a congenital pulmonic stenosis, but her heart has been strong throughout all this, so I've been taking that as a sign that she's well enough to fight on! She's a determined little lady :001_wub:


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

I 'liked' your post for Asha's determination and your care of her, not what she is going through x.


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## Stellabella (Jan 8, 2009)

Aww, thanks Dogless! :biggrin5:


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Dogless said:


> They are . Both have been for walks (separate). The real Kilo is coming back. He's a tired, thin version, but much, much better .


Yay, glad to see this


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

myshkin said:


> Yay, glad to see this


Then this will make you very glad: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/310857-sir-kilo-bogmonster.html

Can't believe it .


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Then this will make you very glad: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/310857-sir-kilo-bogmonster.html
> 
> Can't believe it .


Fantastic progress. I've said it so many times, but I love how dogs don't bother with self-pity, they just get right back in the game


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

myshkin said:


> Fantastic progress. I've said it so many times, but I love how dogs don't bother with self-pity, they just get right back in the game


Yup; it is one of their most beautiful qualities.


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## JR Toby (Jun 12, 2013)

My JR had Steroid Responsive Meningitis when he was 3 years old, he went down hill fast and stopped eating and would yelp when you went anywhere near him, vets we were at completely missed it and put it down to spinal problems, luckily we had the good sense to get a second opinion from another vets and they picked it up right away and started him on steriods and antibiotics.

The dog was in a bad way and they nearly put him down, however he pulled through and was allowed home after 2 weeks, he lost his bark and walked like a crab for 6-8 weeks after but this eventually disappeared, he's a fit and health dog now and full of life.

Anyone been or going through this have my deepest sympathy, not nice to at all.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

JR Toby said:


> My JR had Steroid Responsive Meningitis when he was 3 years old, he went down hill fast and stopped eating and would yelp when you went anywhere near him, vets we were at completely missed it and put it down to spinal problems, luckily we had the good sense to get a second opinion from another vets and they picked it up right away and started him on steriods and antibiotics.
> 
> The dog was in a bad way and they nearly put him down, however he pulled through and was allowed home after 2 weeks, he lost his bark and walked like a crab for 6-8 weeks after but this eventually disappeared, he's a fit and health dog now and full of life.
> 
> Anyone been or going through this have my deepest sympathy, not nice to at all.


I'm pleased that your JRT recovered fully. I wonder how much pain they have as they recover - Kilo is now walked on a harness as attaching a lead to his collar meant that he sort of crabbed along too, but he was / is fine on a harness.


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## JR Toby (Jun 12, 2013)

Dogless said:


> I'm pleased that your JRT recovered fully. I wonder how much pain they have as they recover - Kilo is now walked on a harness as attaching a lead to his collar meant that he sort of crabbed along too, but he was / is fine on a harness.


They are certainly more resilient than we will ever know, not like us humans


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## patterdalelass (Dec 7, 2012)

what lovely pics.Its so nice to see Kilo getting back to his old self.
All your care and support has paid off Dogless.


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## Junior Hudson (Sep 23, 2016)

Hello, I just found this old thread and am looking for people whose dogs have experienced autoimmune issues after Suprelorin or any other temporary chemical neutering, could you please get in contact. Thanks


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Junior Hudson said:


> Hello, I just found this old thread and am looking for people whose dogs have experienced autoimmune issues after Suprelorin or any other temporary chemical neutering, could you please get in contact. Thanks


You may be better off starting a new thread with a more specific title.


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