# GCCF Recommendation or Rule ?



## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Although Im not intending to advertise my kittens for a while (coming up four weeks)I have been looking at adverts in my area to try and get a feel for price etc. 

What I have been a bit surprised to come across is that in additional to the BYB selling 8 week old unvaccinated cats there are also several adverts advertising GCCF registered kittens for sale which state "kittens will have had first vaccination" These adverts are clever in that they do not actually state at what age the kitten will be allowed to leave, so I rang one and was told nine weeks after first vaccination - when I queried this I was told be the breeder that 13 weeks is a GCCF recommendation not a rule !

I have always understood that that if you sold GCCF registered kittens before their vaccination course was completed you could be reported to the GCCF. I have no intention of selling my kittens before 13 weeks as I completely agree with the reasons they are kept to this age - its just its hard enough trying to explain why your kitten is better socialised than an 8 week old from a BYB without having to compete with 9 week old GCCF reg kittens - most people in their ignorance want one as early as possible. So is the full course of vaccinations and 12-13 weeks a recommendation or a rule ?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It is only a recommendation and the only reason that 13 weeks is seen as the norm is because the GCCF recommend that kittens have had the course of two shots *and the breeder keeps them for a full week after the second one*. Many breeders do not always adhere to this, me included. If I've had vaccinations done say on a Tuesday I'm perfectly happy to have those kittens collected on the following w/e. As I don't always follow the recommendations I can't really comment on anyone else who doesn't.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Here's the actual wording from the GCCF Code of Ethics, a document you should familiarise yourself with as you are expected to include a copy with each kitten's paperwork.



> Recommendation
> The GCCF strongly recommends that no kitten should be permitted to go to a new home before 13 weeks of age. A least seven days prior to this the kitten should have completed a full course of vaccinations, including a health check, given by a Veterinary Surgeon or by a listed Veterinary nurse given under the direction of a Veterinary Surgeon. The breeder should ensure that the kittens are house trained, inoculated and in good general health.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Who or what do you think the GCCF is? It isn't up to them to tell breeders what to do with their kittens and they have no power to do so.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Thanks, I have seen that, I am just a bit surprised to find that at least a couple of breeders in my are selling GCCF kittens at nine weeks with only *one* vaccination - I guess its to compete with the BYBs and if its only a recommendation not a rule then I suppose that unless you are opposed for moral reasons to letting them go at such a young age a *recommendation* not to is not much of a deterant


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> Who or what do you think the GCCF is? It isn't up to them to tell breeders what to do with their kittens and they have no power to do so.


 I'm not sure really, I guess because the advertised kittens were registered with the GCCF I thought the breeders would be obliged to adhere to their guidelines - guess Ive been a bit naive.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I've had kittens which would have done very well going to their new homes at 11 weeks and the odd one I've kept longer than 13 because I felt they'd benefit. There's nothing 'moral' about a set date 13 weeks on from the DoB.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> I've had kittens which would have done very well going to their new homes at 11 weeks and the odd one I've kept longer than 13 because I felt they'd benefit. There's nothing 'moral' about a set date 13 weeks on from the DoB.


Maybe "moral" was the wrong word to use - I appreciate every litter is different, 9 weeks just seems very young. I thought it was generally accepted these days that 12-13 weeks was the best age for the kittens.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

This is possibly why the GCCF have brought in the breeder scheme - where you are fully expected to adhere to those guidelines otherwise you will be out. Fully vaccinated are key words on there.

My application is in and I think already approved ready for the next tranch (in Sept). Next step forward? Maybe, we shall see.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I thought it was generally accepted these days that 12-13 weeks was the best age for the kittens.


The only reason that age has become accepted as the norm is because of current vaccination protocol, not because there's something magic happens to all kittens at 12 weeks old.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> The only reason that age has become accepted as the norm is because of current vaccination protocol, not because there's something magic happens to all kittens at 12 weeks old.


I didnt think it was to do with vaccinations, I thought it was more do with socialisation and continued learning from mum.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

So if the protocol for vaccinations changes you'd expect the GCCF recommendations to stay exactly as they are?


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> So if the protocol for vaccinations changes you'd expect the GCCF recommendations to stay exactly as they are?[/Q
> 
> I didnt realise the GCCF recommendation re age was specifically linked to vaccination protocol, however were it possible that a course of vaccinations could be completed by 8 weeks of age I would hope that that the GCCF would recommend the kittens stayed with mum longer. Thanks though for all the information.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> This is possibly why the GCCF have brought in the breeder scheme - where you are fully expected to adhere to those guidelines otherwise you will be out


Out of what Spid? I admit I haven't looked at the scheme for a while and they hadn't worked it out fully when I last did. It just seemed like a money making scheme then with no actual checks on breeders and very minimal standards so I didn't revisit.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

havoc said:


> Out of what Spid? I admit I haven't looked at the scheme for a while and they hadn't worked it out fully when I last did. It just seemed like a money making scheme then with no actual checks on breeders and very minimal standards so I didn't revisit.


Out of the scheme - if you don't follow protocol then you don't get to stay in the scheme.

Yes, I suppose it is one way to make money.

New owners fill in a questionnaire once they get their kitten and send it into GCCF, if there are complaints then you can be suspended or lifelong banned. However, it 'can' be seen as a step up from just registration etc. It's £30 start up and then £20 a year so not a massive amount of money, and that includes you listed, a link to your website and access to a kitten list for advertising. Kittenlist itself is £5 if you want a photo. You need a letter of recommendation from your vet and also form your breed club. Or (in my case as only just moved and vet can't say anything) a letter of recommendation from a respected person well known to the GCCF.

I feel it is a start and am happy to support it.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I've seen their questionnaire and I don't object to it - apart from the obvious question designed to ensure the new owner is 'encouraged' to send them money 

It's other things I'm waiting to see about but maybe you have the answers.

So if you are kicked out of the scheme will it say somewhere that you have been? They admit themselves that the main reason for suspension will be non payment of subscription so if someone chooses not to continue their subscriptions will they be 'branded' the same as if they've done something wrong?

The other thing I can't work out is whether breeders are required to register all kittens. Is the option to declare withdrawn if you join this scheme? I've never not registered kittens but declaration is something I'd thought I might consider if and when I find a vet who will early neuter as the need to register non-active isn't there any more. Unless breeders must register all kittens I can't see how the feedback thing can work.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I can't answer all of it Havoc,

but a) I don't know if it will say if you are suspended or why etc. So not sure on that point. I suppose eventually they will need a list of suspensions / and sanctions taken etc. 

b) you can register OR declare. If you don't register now anyway don;t you have to give new owners a copy of the stud certificate to do so themselves - wouldn't the same thing apply? And so on the owners questionnaire they could say that. 

I suppose I haven't really considered these points as I don't do them - I register them all as I think I should and it's proof for the owner of proper pedigree and I don't expect to get suspended.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I suppose eventually they will need a list of suspensions / and sanctions taken etc.


That's one of my wait and see issues. If someone joins this scheme and chooses not to continue they'll be worse off than if they never joined if they get put on some suspension list for simply not continuing to pay their subscription to either the scheme or a club. Somebody taking a break from breeding and choosing not to continue subscription to the scheme has done nothing wrong.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If you don't register now anyway don;t you have to give new owners a copy of the stud certificate to do so themselves - wouldn't the same thing apply?


One of the main reasons for registering kittens yourself is to ensure they go on the non-active register. Early neutering removes that concern. As my cats regularly produce litters of between 6 and 9 kittens declaring rather than registering would pay for a couple of castrations per litter which would save me from raising the price of kittens to well over £500. In a litter of 8 I'd have to register one at £14 (£9 plus £5 admin) and declare the other 7 at £0 instead of £63. I know it isn't a fortune and it's a moot point so far as I don't have a vet who will early neuter but it is something I'd consider. I know breeders who already declare large litters and buyers are perfectly happy with a copy of the summary sheet and the mating cert along with instructions on how to register if they wish. Why wouldn't they be?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Here 12 weeks and vaccinated are the rules, you can be reported otherwise

Desexing is highly recommended, compulsory in some states by law (separate to governing body rules), microchipping is also recommended and law in some states.
And in some states vaccinated at least once is also law


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Here 12 weeks and vaccinated are the rules, you can be reported otherwise


Although vaccinations are only a recommendation with the GCCF it appears the whole Code of Ethics is going to become compulsory for those who are choosing to join their new breeder scheme. I think it's going to catch quite a few out.


> The GCCF strongly recommends that no kitten should be permitted to go to a new home before 13 weeks of age. A least seven days prior to this the kitten should have completed a full course of vaccinations


It's that phrase *'at least *seven days prior' which is going to trip people up. For example, if I have a litter born on a Friday I don't take them for first vacs on the Friday they are 9 weeks old. I take them on the following Monday. I've only ever once had a kitten throw a reaction to vacs but I don't want to risk it happening over a w/e. The second shots are therefore 3 weeks from that Monday. If I join this breeder scheme I would then not be able to let those kittens go to their new homes during the w/e following their final vaccination, I'd have to make the new owners wait for 'at least' the full seven days.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> One of the main reasons for registering kittens yourself is to ensure they go on the non-active register.


This is just so odd to me, that a buyer can then choose to register as active regardless of whether it's a pet or not.

Here all kittens must be litter registered, in that case a breeder will just supply a home printed copy of the pedigree. The pet owner cannot submit any paperwork to a governing body.

We also have 3 different types of registration for those kittens who are registered, which is the majority.
Pet only, show neuter or entire recorded in the registration numbers/letters.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Here all kittens must be litter registered


That sounds the same as 'declaring' a litter. With the GCCF you can register one but just declare the rest of the litter as kitten 2, kitten 3 etc. You get sufficient paperwork to show the whole litter are pedigree kittens, just not individual registration cards. The new owners can register their kitten if they want.

Fairly recently the GCCF has introduced a facility where breeders can check online what cats are registered in their name. Care to guess what percentage of my buyers have ever transferred their kitten into their own name?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> That sounds the same as 'declaring' a litter. With the GCCF you can register one but just declare the rest of the litter as kitten 2, kitten 3 etc.
> 
> Care to guess what percentage of my buyers have ever transferred their kitten into their own name?


Yes I believe they are the same thing

You don't register the kittens directly into the new owners names then? I'll guess that all your kitten buyers have transferred them into their own names?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

AFAIK very few kitten buyers transfer the kitten into their own name. Obviously those wanting to show and/or breed do, but they are very much in the minority.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'll guess that all your kitten buyers have transferred them into their own names?


Guess again - just under 3%! We don't tend to register directly in a new owner's name. Quite often I don't even know which kitten is going to which owner when I do the registrations or if I'm keeping one.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> Guess again - just under 3%! We don't tend to register directly in a new owner's name. Quite often I don't even know which kitten is going to which owner when I do the registrations or if I'm keeping one.


Oh! lol, very wrong guess


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I knew it wouldn't be all of them or even a majority but I was quite stunned at how few had ever bothered though there isn't any reason for pet owners to do it. The GCCF charge a fee for transfer of course and one of the questions on the new breeder scheme customer feedback sheet is 'did the breeder encourage you to transfer the kitten into your own name?' They've obviously known how few bother and how much more money they could get by making it a requirement for breeders to push it.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

How soon do you have to register them? I send the forms when the kittens leave, registering into the owners name would get around the extra fee

Kittens I've run on then homed I pay to transfer it for the new owner


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If they aren't already registered at the time of sale then the new owner is entitled to register them. The breeder *must* supply the paperwork for them to do so.


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