# Breeder' problem, pls give advice what to do...



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

Hi everyone,

So, this is a video about the reality that you can see what I am talking about:





I've just bought a kitten from Germany (from one of the most famous cattery in the world on the field of chinchillas and goldens with candy-like web site and some music on it). I turned to them (even their prices are quite high) because on of my older cat (my personal favorite) has lot of ancestors from that cattery and I admire her colours and her temper and hoped to carry her line before she become too old to give birth. However I read about 2-3 scandals of them via internet nothing seems to be so based and so proven that I really rely on that reviews so this is my second reason to share that warn others to avoid them.

I am hobby breader, I am not familiar in the world of cremes and powders to make cat to be a beauty, I just use healthy food and keep them well to reach this 'level' so I did not know till now that it is a way to get rid off gums footprint, maybe skin deseases, etc.

As I also do not cheat with light-conditions (like you can't see the real colors because the sun is behind the cat) it was new to me, too.

All in one, she broke our agreement on many ways:

1. When we arrived to there, kitten already has got some calm-drops as when we left she gave him again saying: 'a last one dose'. Because of the calm-drops we can't see the real eye-colour his pupil were just so huge. We noticed that he is frightend enough (ok, he did not know us), and try to escape but the way he ran was a bit weird, it looked when a cat' back legs are just mixed and uncertain somehow (and when I saw something like this it was after an anesthesiologic stuff, so I suspected calm drops). 
*Diagnosis: *
luxated patella (how her vet could certify in the passport and on the day of our arrival that kitten was healthy?!) During the way as sometimes I put him close to myself on the back seat and put him to a harmness (long way) I saw that something wrong with his legs or hip but his pupils were very-very huge so knowing he got some dose of calm-drops I was not suspicious, I went suspicios just after a 40 hours and seeing his weird movement here at home as no calm-drops which effect can stand so long (I thought). And he went to vet for check.

2. I haven't see the pedigree (she promised to send it but she did not and she almost always answered late - especially when I asked for new photos) and as I know how much work breeders have I was not pushy (and of course based on myself and her beautiful-on-photos cats and reputation I trusted her.)

3. We agreed that kitten can't have leukemia's vaccina just cat-flu combinate and compulsory rabbies vaccina. (Please I do not like to discuss this part here, I reserach a lot this subject and lost cat, so have my reasons to ask this). She let him have a vaccina-combinate which consist of 5 stuffs! And anyway, together with rabbies, even a two-times cat-flu combinate is would be quite enough for such a young body in so short time.

4. His eyes were quite ugly there (we saw) and his cheeks under the eye, but was better than we arrived so I assume he alread had got some creme and powder before we arrived. When we were there, the woman gave him plenty of creme rubbing into-around eyes and after this some white stuff (powder I think) - and miracle... footprints of gums disappeared. But I never thought that it was not all that we could seen there. He has some missing fur even under his cheek. 
*Diagnosis:*
bilateral conjuntivis - herpesvirus?

5. Food and the enviroment.
The whole house stink because of cat-poo. She never heard of Orijen (or at least she told this), she surely do not use raw meat, what I could see in plates it was some who-knows-what-kind-of-dry and some cheap looking average wet food. Cats around: There were some nice ones but half of them has the same ugly blackish discoloration under eyes and on cheeks. Fur was ok, but my kitten had so much powder that it filled the car' air later so yes, I guess this is a way, too... Earlier she wrote to me that she lost some kittens after a birth-giving. When we were there, just one kitten survived from another birth-giving. I must admit - on this point I was seriously thinking on loose deposit and leave but I was so unlucky (and silly) that because of a mistake I transferred deposit twice (600 EUR minus bank' fee) which was the half price of the cat and I tried to trust in her knowing how famous that cattery is with how much medals, etc.
For the road she gave some 'food' and as I did not want to hurt her feelings I accpeted (of course I did not used) which was some rice powder (we do not use rice or cereals and pretty sure that as cats are very much carnivores, carbonhidrates is not good to them) and mixed it with something (and?) liquid gave it in a small bottle with a syringe to feed him. (We gave proper food to him but anyway during the beginning we did not dare to feed because of the calm-drops).

And a couple of another suprise: which I do not think that common with kittens who were kept properly and with heart:
- This little boy did not know ball, did not know how to play
- When he make him play with stick and feathers he used just his first legs but did not move after the toy (painful back leg because of his illness?)
- He chewing water (I did not joke or exaggerate it!) he put his mouth into the water, hunt a 'bite', turn up his head and chew it. Even to chew meat took a little time to learn to him. He did not chew Orijen but just swallow and his chewing is loud somehow... Like people gnash their teeth when dreaming something bad.

What can I do? I do not like to keep him and I felt very deeply cheated as I myself quite correct and do not eager so much for profit so keep my cats and kittens on an expensive way - but thanks to this I am unexperienced with illnesses, bad habits / or defects, and as myself do not lie to my customers I am just clueless now. I am deeply sorry this little boy, because he is the suffering one in this story but do not like to mate my Choosie with a boy who has such problems like legs, always-teary eyes and maybe 'produce' kittens with similar defects. As pet.. I have cats enough, I did not even wanted to buy a new one it is just because of my Choosie, as she is getting old I always fear to loose her and have nothing similar which can comfort me if this times come.

By the way, I did not even got pedigree yet. She told to us that as one of her customers died on the road backway to home and she had to struggle a lot to have owner's name modified, she was not willing to give the pedigree as it was not ready yet but promised to send it later when it would be ready.

And as proof, that I am not just a bad person telling lies: I am more than happy to show photos about him that she sent to me, and the only video (where little boy playing a little but just sitting on a cat tree without moving with his whole body) and the reality so how he looks like without powder (like a kitten who has just survived a nuclear-attact) or how he moves as today morning I took photos and video, too.
I also happy to show the official diagnosis of him (michrochip no is on it so no mistake...). 
And of course as I am not free to write down the cattery name here, I can tell it in private if someone is planning to buy a new kitten from Germany.

And finally, please help, what can I do with this situation? Thank you in advance.


----------



## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

Are you also in Germany?


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Have you actually spoken to the breeder about your options? And do you have a contract?


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I'm afraid that I can't see what you can do. I am very sorry for you, but even more sorry for your kitten. 

If I were you I would get in touch with the breeder and see if she will take back the kitten as he is not healthy, but TBH I don't think you will get very far. I don't know how the law relating to cats stands in Germany, but in the UK it would cost you a lot of money to take this to court, and no guarantee you would win. The only hope you've got is if you can prove that the health certificate you got with the kitten was fraudulent.

What possessed you to get a kitten which you didn't want, just so you could breed a cat which is quite elderly? I'm not even going to go into the ethics of whether you should have kittens at all, but if you felt you had to, what was wrong with getting the services of a stud cat? Even if he had been healthy, you would still have had to wait for him to mature, and meanwhile your female cat is getting older and less able to carry and birth a litter. You would still have had a cat which was surplus to requirements - and a litter of kittens to find good homes for. Or were you thinking of using him as a stud, and making your money back off him? (1,200 is a hell of a lot to pay for ANY cat). 

Whatever happens now is not going to be good for that little cat. Your options, as I see it, are these.

1) The breeder may take him back and return your money - (unlikely - and God alone knows where he will end up). 
2) You may be able to sell him on as a pet - (but you won't get nearly what you paid for him).
3) You may be able to give him away to a loving pet home - (you will be 1,200 out of pocket, but won't have any vet bills to worry about)
4) You can keep him as a pet, even though you don't want him - (unfair to him and again 1,200 lost and more in bills)
5) Depending on how serious his condition is, he may need to be put to sleep.

None of these options is what you want to hear, I know, but it shows why you shouldn't go into breeding without great thought and care. WHatever you decide to do with this poor little boy, I hope you'll forget about having a litter off your favourite, elderly cat. The time to do that was when she was young and fit.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

1200 euros is actually pretty cheap for a stud cat believe it or not.


----------



## AtticusRavel (Sep 8, 2013)

carly87 said:


> 1200 euros is actually pretty cheap for a stud cat believe it or not.


WOZERS! Really?

I'm sorry OP. From whatI have read around, I agree with lostbear that there isn't much you probably could do legally. However, I would try to speak to her. It gives me the impression what you would like is that she would take the kitten back, and give you your money back too- nearly impossibly scenario. But you've mention she is in theory a reputable breeder etc, so the only option you have if she's resistant (court will be too costly, and probably the case won't even be accepted) is to let her know, you will tell about the situation of the kitten etc to German cat associations, and any German online feline media you can quote. You say you have pictures etc.. Not that I agree this is something nice to do, but if you are onto something and not false slandering, it also will be a warning for other people that trust her name and her reputation. Surely you don't want others to follow in the same trap.

Sorry not to be able to be more helpful than this!


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I haven't see the pedigree


I am really struggling with the idea that someone buys a cat for stud without having had sight of the pedigree. I'm struggling with the way you've gone about this in every way but are you really telling us that in all your negotiations with the breeder you never even asked to see a copy of the pedigree?


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

carly87 said:


> 1200 euros is actually pretty cheap for a stud cat believe it or not.


REALLY?! Hell's Bells!


----------



## AtticusRavel (Sep 8, 2013)

Havoc, I don't think anyone will see those papers anytime soon...


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

havoc said:


> I am really struggling with the idea that someone buys a cat for stud without having had sight of the pedigree. I'm struggling with the way you've gone about this in every way but are you really telling us that in all your negotiations with the breeder you never even asked to see a copy of the pedigree?


I can't understand either why when the OP got to the breeder's, and the conditions were so bad, she didn't just say "I'm so sorry - he isn't quite what I wanted after all" and just write off her deposit. She would have been legally entitle to her other six hundred euros back (not sure from post if cat was 1,200 or 2,400 - hard to work out to me - from what another poster has said, could easily be 2,400)

OR why, if she wanted a stud to breed from, she wasn't in negotiation with the breeder explaining her requirements, seeking out other people who had got one of her kittens from previous litters and checking out how they had developed as regards 'type', whether any health problems had become apparent etc. I've never bred, or kept a stud, but it seems a reasonable thing to do.

AND I am really disgusted that anyone who claimed to love their cats so much, would buy one they 'didn't really want', obviously with the sole intention of making money off him. i don't buy this 'my heart is breaking, my cat will die one day and there will be nothing to comfort me' crap, personally.

If I'm wrong, I apologise unreservedly to the OP, but I suspect we have a BYB who's grasped the other end of the stick, here.

This poor, sick, unloved little cat is the victim here. My heart aches for him.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Aurelie said:


> Are you also in Germany?


I was also trying to work this out. I don't know why, but my gut feeling is the OP is in the UK, which would mean an imported kitten bought from an intermediary.

NO chance of getting a refund there, I would have thought - plus, the kitten might not even be from the 'famous' breeder it's supposed to be from.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If I was going to import a stud I'd go to Germany (or wherever) to see him. I'd expect him to be already chipped, I'd take a scanner with me and read the chip. Before I go I'd expect to see his pedigree & photos and I'd expect him to turn up (or be collected) with all his paperwork so he can immediately be imported into the GCCF. I'd expect the whole process to cost £3k or more with all the travel costs and so on. And I wouldn't go to all that cost and trouble for anything except a cat of exceptional looks and breeding.

I have heard of some people who imported a stud who proved to be infertile - he mated quite a few different females and none of them got pregnant. They felt he wasn't the cat they had seen either. I don't know if he was meant to be proven when they brought him.

What country is the OP in? That affects their rights, but as said elsewhere the kitten is the most important thing. Has he been taken to a vets or is the 'diagnosis' in the original post the OPs guess at what the problem is?


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

Aurelie said:


> Are you also in Germany?


No, I am in the UK, this is why I could not visit the kitten to see earlier than basicly picking him up.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

lostbear said:


> I was also trying to work this out. I don't know why, but my gut feeling is the OP is in the UK, which would mean an imported kitten bought from an intermediary.
> 
> NO chance of getting a refund there, I would have thought - plus, the kitten might not even be from the 'famous' breeder it's supposed to be from.


I am sorry, I do not really understand what you wrote or wanted to tell. What is OP? 
YES, the kitten is from there. We were in the breeder house in Germany, kitten is michrochiped and when I asked vet here to examine him because of his legs and eye problem, I asked diagnosis in an official form (michrochip no was entered to clinic redords and written on the diagnoses).

And I can show it if you wish and if it helps...

This is one of the point I can't understand. How is it possible that a vet in Germany certify a kitten heath in passport (on the same day when we pick him up) and did not notice such serious problems?


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

spotty cats said:


> Have you actually spoken to the breeder about your options? And do you have a contract?


Yes, I wrote to her but haven't received a reply yet (but what could she possibly answer? 'Yes, I cheated you? I used calm-drops and powder to hide illnesses and real eye-colour?'

I aleady edited my fist comment / opening comment as I made a video about the kitten to let you see what I am talking about.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

_'If I was going to import a stud I'd go to Germany (or wherever) to see him.'_

I am sorry, I am maybe silly but could not think that they could cheat and Germany is a bit far, especially that part and I have cats here so it is not so easy to solve to jump there for a visit.

_'I'd expect him to be already chipped, I'd take a scanner with me and read the chip.'_
Nothing wrong with the chip number. This is not how they did this. I think we could see the same kitten on photos and on a short video but he never moved or was on photos in a standing position. Even on video when he plays a little he uses his first legs to catche toy but sitting - not moving so , not jumping after the toy to catche - problem with back leg could not be seen. Also powder on face could not be seen.

_'What country is the OP in?' That affects their rights, but as said elsewhere the kitten is the most important thing. Has he been taken to a vets or is the 'diagnosis' in the original post the OPs guess at what the problem is'_
What is the meaning of OP (sorry)?
UK vet examined him and made the diagnose. They read microchip no on clinic, I asked to record chip number, I asked the diagnose in an official written form. So no guessing, these are the facts.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

outsider said:


> I am sorry, I do not really understand what you wrote or wanted to tell. What is OP?
> YES, the kitten is from there. We were in the breeder house in Germany, kitten is michrochiped and when I asked vet here to examine him because of his legs and eye problem, I asked diagnosis in an official form (michrochip no was entered to clinic redords and written on the diagnoses).
> 
> And I can show it if you wish and if it helps...
> ...


Sorry - OP is 'original poster" - the person who started the thread, in this case, you.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

outsider said:


> Yes, I wrote to her but haven't received a reply yet (but what could she possibly answer? 'Yes, I cheated you? I used calm-drops and powder to hide illnesses and real eye-colour?'
> *
> I aleady edited my fist comment / opening comment as I made a video about the kitten to let you see what I am talking about.*


I see a kitten who has sore-looking eyes (could just be where the drops have run into his coat), but who mainly seems disoriented and wary because he is in a strange place. If he has been kept indoors, and especially if he has just arrived at your home, he won't be very playful because he will be exhausted, and will also need time to get used to his new home and people, AND if he hasn't been outdoors before he will be FRIGHTENED!

You stated that you are a hobby breeder only - yet you have another video - Les Persians de Fannie - in which you introduce this kitten, who is now five months old (he didn't look that on your video-link, but to be fair, I know very little about persians). It looks to me as though you are trying to establish yourself as a breeder of persian cats - if that's your intention, you will have to be MUCH more selective about how and where you get your breeding stock - and you certainly shouldn't be breeding from this boy if he has s many health problems as you suggest. Sorry - I have looked at this again, and I may be wrong about who has posted this video - it is very possibly NOT from Outsider and I have made a huge boo-boo. (Though the description sounds like our OP). If is from someone else, I can see why OP was so impressed with the kittens.

Can I ask other people reading this thread to check the links and offer their opinions - as I say, I know next to nowt about persians. The other video is linked here: 




The video from the original breeder looks fine to me.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

lostbear said:


> I was also trying to work this out. I don't know why, but my gut feeling is the OP is in the UK, which would mean an imported kitten bought from an intermediary.
> .


Sorry, you've got it wrong (probably my mistake...)
I turned to one of the most famous cattery in the world using their contact address on their web site, I asked for a kitten who was similar to my Choosie (who had lot of ancestors on grand-grand level from this cattery) explaining that as my Choosie is getting old and I admired her temper and colours I would like a little boy who is similar to her. She (breeder) answered, offered a boy telling that he was from her 'old line' (longer nose), parents could not be seen on her web page (has much more cats than one can see on that web page), she sent photos, weeks later she sent a video, promised to send a pedigree via email to show but she always was very busy and ill, or some of her cat had escaped, etc, etc (sorry, I know I am silly and naive to believe all this but as I myself a correct, honest person, I am not suspicious assuming silly that everyone else is the same).
Because of the distance (and as I was not suspicios but very grateful that she even answered to me and could offer a kitten who was similar to my beloved Choosie - only reason why I turned to her!!!) I did not visit, but agreed in connection with vaccination (what she also broke giving him a kind of combinate vaccina what I definitely asked not to give as it contained not just cat-flu proteciton but two other stuff I was very afraid of and wanted to be avoided), agreed when he would be ready for leaving to his new home, etc.
When the time arrived, she wrote that everything was ok, we travelled there by car. We saw the kitten (and a couple of other cats around) but by the time we arrived he was under the effect of calm-drops, his pupils were very huge and covered his eye colour. His eyes were not so bad teary and had gum footprints and breeder there put some more cream (telling us that it is an american stuff and asking wheter we knew, I answered no and told to her we did not use powder and cream ever) and powder and we could see how the blackish part become white and healthy-looking. (I did not think that it was not the first dose of cream of powder and injuries much bigger and worst, it turned out when we arrived home and I cleaned his fur around his eyes with a wet-cotton piece.) Hi did not move much there as was hiding or in arms or once go to the toilet, I saw that his back legs / moving a bit weird (just like a drunken person's) but he looked like to be a cat who is under the effect of a calm-pill (so we thougth it to be normal - except that we never asked for calm-drops or pills or anything like this), but she was a big and very famous breeder, have several international contact, travelled several cats, we thought that this should have been the safe way for the kitten or something and did not think of course that calm-drops were to hide illness.
Nevetheless, when I saw the enviroment I was quite disappointed (as I assumed a better diet, more care and not with powder, etc.) but thought that as we used a very healthy expensive diet and I've already paid almost 600 EUR which was almost half price of kitten, I shall be able to cure him to become/develop an as healthy and beautiful cats as mine are. * As I wrote, because of the drops' effect (huge pupils) we could not see that even the eye color is not good / not what I had asked for showing my cat to her, or could not recognise the problem with his leg as an illness and not as an effect of calm-drops.
I cheked his passport, did not know the meaning of the german vaccina' name so I thought he had got that cat-flu combinate twice I had asked for and rabbies' vaccina, etc. (Difference between the asked vaccina and reality turned out when I arrived home and google for the vaccina's stamp on passort.) Then we left as we had a booked tunnel and as the breeder was very busy leaving the room or answering phones, her family arrived with grandchild (this were the point when cats became frightend and nervous, run away and hide somewhere), I asked for the pedigree and told to her that we are in hurry now, and she answered something like 'sorry, there is no official pedigree yet, because...' (I could not remember the cat club name she wanted to use, previously via email she had promised an international registration - was it TICA?, the US one - to avoid re-registering process here but there she told to me that as US registration takes about a month she wanted rather a German one which process would take about a week and would be accepted by GCCF but as one of her previous client had died on the road just after buying a kitten from her and because of it she had lot of trouble to have owner's details modified she never asked for papers/registration(?) till kitten reach its new home.) I did not like this explanation very much but as I wrote before:
1. She is a very famous breeder with huge experience and I've never dreamed that a person like her could afford behaving like this.
2. I've already paid almost half of the price
3. I saw no reason why it would be such a big problem to have papers later via post as I've already has his passport and his details in it - so I was not suspicious.

* So If I had just left 200-300 EUR as deposit I probably would not picked this kitten up and rather lost my money as when we were there she show a kitten to us that this kitten was the only survival from a new litter and before this, during emailing with each other she had wrote that she had got a litter and was busy and tired and she left kitten (as far as I remember, two but I should check and read it back). But from all of this - as we almost never loose kittens and have big litters - I started to become frightend and suspected that somehting must have been wrong with diet, overvaccination or probably inbreeding, do not knew reason but it was just not normal to me.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Dont forget eye colour can improve with age,im not sure whats going on with the leg maybe get a xray done quickly.

If she has lots of cats its likely the kitten has been reared in a cattery hence skitty behaviour.

I too would have wanted to see a pedigree copy to see the lines etc.I take it You have no registration paperwork too yet this can be normal for some breeders to send this after a sale,i actually think you need to keep this breeder on friendly terms if you want to get anywhere with this.Hard when your email is not answered.

OH AS FOR THE CREAM SURLY IF SHE WAS TRYING TO HIDE SOOMETHING SHE WOULDNT HAVE DONE IT INFRONT OF YOU.Whoops sorry caps on.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

outsider said:


> Sorry, you've got it wrong (probably my mistake...)
> 
> Yes - when I read your other posts I realised my mistake - sorry. Not your error.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

'I see a kitten who has sore-looking eyes (could just be where the drops have run into his coat), but who mainly seems disoriented and wary because he is in a strange place. If he has been kept indoors, and especially if he has just arrived at your home, he won't be very playful because he will be exhausted, and will also need time to get used to his new home and people, AND if he hasn't been outdoors before he will be FRIGHTENED!'

You forgot something, he is ill, was officially diagnosed with luxated patella and bilateral conjuntivis!!!!
He was with us when we bring him out very carefully for a short time in a secured small garden to have some fresh air and for us to be able to record his true condition with GOOD light conditions. And he enjoys garden very much and wait to be escorted back as because of his illness and protect my cats otherwise I have to keep him in a separate room, alone. I feel so sorry for him but can'r take the risk with a suspected virus infection (his eyes). And this kitten - thanks to us, starting to learn how to drink (he was chewing water! - i've never seen anything like this before) started to eat healthy food and enjoys raw chicken, quail, and beef, likes Orijen and he is not on liquid-ricepowdered junk stuff given from a syrengee what was given to us by the breeder, sleeps with my husband not to being completely alone as because of diagnosed eye-illness I can't let him together with my cats as I wrote!


I am sorry, but who are you to suspect such things???? Why are you so offensive and insulting with me? How do you dare at all? Yes, you are right on a point: From that case I learnt that these big breeders (and I deeply apologize towards good and good hearted ones who care well after to their cats), that it is about making huge money using cheap stuff to be cost-effective, keeping many-many cats in small places locked and on cheap, carbonhydrate-filled food and using powder and calm-drops to hide illness.

Honestly I just can't understand your reaction at all.
Yes, I am a hobby breader, has not much cats (this is why I am a hobby breader, my cats can mate and have a natural full life, keep them on high quality raw meat and Orijen, free to sleep with and use the house fully and secured garden, too. And you know we do not have heatlh issues, my 'tricks' to reach beautiful and healthy kittens are not a secret, I always share it and suggest to follow (I know, this way is very expensive...) but who are you to suspect me, judge over me, etc? Because you know I became a victim (and this poor kitten, too) because I was too naive to be suspicious but it looks you have your experience to be and know what I did not know - these tricks that - it looks some bad-hearted breeder use.

I am foreigner, I am familiar to not to have too much trust (which is insulting you know but ok...) this is why I wrote, I have poof like UK' vet written diagnose, etc. I am ok that many people suspicius and even if I think that it is humiliating that I always have to show proof but I am ready to show you know.

On the other hand - forgive me - I am fed up with heartless, moneymaking 'big' breederes and their ways, when Royal canin (full with rice) is the used and offered food, when this big breeder do not take time to update their knowledge in connection with vaccination, etc, etc. Breeding is not about medals and powder or at least should not be! They are not a pair of trouses in TESCO, they are living thing. If someone make some money from them the minimum I would expected to keep them really-relly well in health and happyness and not like chickens in a huge farms on poor food and closed in small places.

It is about heart and honesty. So sorry! I can't understand your offensive reaction at all.


----------



## Time flies (Jul 23, 2013)

Hi, I just googled the cattery name and there are others who are complaining about false pedigrees and breaking contracts also other people who have had kittens that had to be put down with fip. I can link the articles if anyone is interested but all I did was google the name and it all came up on the first page. Feel sorry for the poor little boy


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

outsider said:


> No, I am in the UK, this is why I could not visit the kitten to see earlier than basicly picking him up.


Germany isn't that far. You are really going on a flyer buying a kitten unseen from someone you don't know.

And it's not unknown for excellent breeders to end up looking like the worst of the BYBs.

Not sure if the kitten in the video is your kitten, if he is he should be withheld in GCCF shows as his nose leather is clearly above the lower rim of his eye e.g. for the GCCF he is overtyped.


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Poor kitten...just being used like an item (rather than a living beautiful animal) to make money. Not feeling any real love from any direction for the poor little mite. Very sad indeed


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

_'I'm afraid that I can't see what you can do. I am very sorry for you, but even more sorry for your kitten. ' _

Thank you. I feel the same, I can't see a way out, I feel very badly because of him no matter that it is not my fault. I have cats enough you know, the only-only reason was that I was saving money for a cat especially from this breeder is my Choosie who is my everything. I could cry as she is almost 8 now and I am terrified the time when she won't be with me anymore.

The kitten: My cats have their souls, they tend to be jelous, they are calm and content just if all of them can have their own rooms. So in a cat community there are common rooms (like sitting room or garden, that they use together and they are well together) but when they want to be alone or have kittens all of them requires an own place. He is not suitable to gave his genes and I rather not keep him just as a neutered pet.

_'If I were you I would get in touch with the breeder and see if she will take back the kitten as he is not healthy, but TBH I don't think you will get very far.'_

I wrote to her, no answer. I think the same, I have no real chanche except to warn us to avoid them, avoid a situation like this. But I has not given up yet.

_'I don't know how the law relating to cats stands in Germany, but in the UK it would cost you a lot of money to take this to court, and no guarantee you would win. The only hope you've got is if you can prove that the health certificate you got with the kitten was fraudulent.'_

This is exactly I hope. So yes, do you know (or anyone) a lawyer here to ask? Someone who is familiar with similar cases (animal-related cases). I obviously like to sew them, but do not know the chances.

'What possessed you to get a kitten which you didn't want, just so you could breed a cat which is quite elderly?'

I love all of my cats, I would loved this one too, I do not have etchic problem with this. But it is not about just a 'stud'. We do not have queens or stud, we have company who can live a natural, full life including mating and giving birth to kittens. I rather have ethic problems with neutering as I can't ask the cat what it would like to mate or not to mate and spend its life as a forced-neutered company of a human. I am not above them just because I am a human. (Hope you understand my point but this is how I think about this stuff.)

No, I do not ask for stud service, first of all, I wanted something like Choosie to carry that genes somehow and gain so beautiful, clever, gorgeous-coloured cats like her (for my and others pleasure, too). Second, I do not trust enough (sorry) to accept a male I did not rased up.

_'1) The breeder may take him back and return your money - (unlikely - and God alone knows where he will end up). ' _
Agreed.

_'2) You may be able to sell him on as a pet - (but you won't get nearly what you paid for him).'_
Undecided. I won't lie about him, in this condition he should come free or something but till the point I do not know what to do (sew them, etc) I have to keep him anyway. (don't feel sorry for him please, I mean, he is very well kept now, and taken care of, we love animal and do not save money on keeping them nor care, probably our diet will make his immun-system better so he will be a better shape than he is now and he is definitely happy and enjoys garden, and toys - this is weird too, he did not even know how to play with cat-balls and was afraid of them)

_'3) You may be able to give him away to a loving pet home - (you will be 1,200 out of pocket, but won't have any vet bills to worry about)

4) You can keep him as a pet, even though you don't want him - (unfair to him and again 1,200 lost and more in bills)'_
Agreed.

_'5) Depending on how serious his condition is, he may need to be put to sleep.'_

Thanks to god it not that serious. I asked for an AIDS and leukemia's test, too to be sure as I was cheated I lost all of my trust. He has no serious illness, vet's opinion that he can grow-out(?) leg-problem and as he is on a good diet know I hope this will happen. My only concern for him now that behind his eye-problem is a virus infection or not, because this is why I can't allow him to play and be together with mine and have a full life here.

_'None of these options is what you want to hear, I know, but it shows why you shouldn't go into breeding without great thought and care. WHatever you decide to do with this poor little boy, I hope you'll forget about having a litter off your favourite, elderly cat. The time to do that was when she was young and fit.'_

Thank you for your comment, it had a lot of sense. 
I never wanted to be a professional breeder (and won't) you know. With all of my respect towards good ones, I do not want to bother my cats with exchibitions, etc. But I think it is understandable that I enjoy grateful owner's opinion when they wrote to me admiringly about our kittens or even ask for another one later (often happens) and it is a natural wish to gain a little good-feeling and success in a foreign country and quite lonely life in this way - while on the other hand my cats can live a natural, full life. Of course I wish to have even more beautiful, good tempered kittens if possible.  Choosie is beautiful and her temper is very unique.

In connection with ages: When we changed diet (we were not so careful in past and believed in advertisements) to a healthy one, things changed. Like: they become more healthy, looks more young, fit, playful, even my oldest cat (10-11? I should check) give birth rarely and feels very well and healthy.
In nature it is their decision and normal life. The only way we involve ourselves that we do not let them have to mate so often than they wish to be sure that their bodies have their rest-time. But all of my cats are very beautiful and healthy and full of energy kind.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

chichi said:


> Poor kitten...just being used like an item (rather than a living beautiful animal) to make money. Not feeling any real love from any direction for the poor little mite. Very sad indeed


To feel love takes time you know. Till the point you really know you just bought a kitten and you were cheated. 
You can blame his breeder, yes. As she is the responsible one.
As a hobby-breader this is one of my most important reason not to cosmetic the truth in connection with appereance, temper (even if a kitten is a michievous one) because I know, kitten should be loved. It is people choiche which kitten is able to move and grab their hearts (and why like appereance, etc, etc).

I am the same. In this case I am not the breeder but a disappointed customer you know who lost 1200 EUR (I saved for it from years now!) and was cheated. No matter how sorry I feel for the kitten if I want to adopt one I do not pay a fortune just adopt. But if I am after a temper, colouring - I pay, and expect what I 'ordered'

Thanks for your understanding in advance.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Have to say I haven't seen any 'offensive reactions' to you. Not sure what the out burst above was about.

Looks like you have been diddled.

Not too sure about your views on neutering either. But that's a different discussion. 

Think you are going to have to suck it up and get on with it I'm afraid.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

_'Germany isn't that far. You are really going on a flyer buying a kitten unseen from someone you don't know.'_

I am foreinger without significant relatives here and have cats to take care. I do not have even free weekends or holiday as I am with them - so yes, Germany is a distance and they live far from airports (rural area), it takes more days to visit and of course costs extra money, too. I am sorry, is it really my fault that a dishonest person cheated me? :-( He was cute on video and on photos I had got about him, cattery was world-wide famous, I was not suspicious. End of story. :-(
I also gave kittens to people (in UK) who did not visit because of distance or from Scotland, Ireland. They visit from short distances but not from long. They can have photos and video (true ones), they are not disappointed , this is how it works in my little-naive world.

_'And it's not unknown for excellent breeders to end up looking like the worst of the BYBs.

Not sure if the kitten in the video is your kitten, if he is he should be withheld in GCCF shows as his nose leather is clearly above the lower rim of his eye e.g. for the GCCF he is overtyped.'_

Sorry, I can't understand this part, but ok, I do not ask for a show-quality cat I asked for a healthy kitten who has my cat's colours and possibly temper hoping that that line she came from is still alive somehow and I got a second Choosie or something quite similar to her.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

_Sorry - I have looked at this again, and I may be wrong about who has posted this video - it is very possibly NOT from Outsider and I have made a huge boo-boo. (Though the description sounds like our OP). If is from someone else, I can see why OP was so impressed with the kittens.

Can I ask other people reading this thread to check the links and offer their opinions - as I say, I know next to nowt about persians. The other video is linked here: PERSIAN CAT Brettachtal's Feng Shui.mov - YouTube

The video from the original breeder looks fine to me_.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, too. I am a bit sensitive and felt hurted, so sorry again.
The videos:
One of them is the breeder's originial which was sent to me about the actual kitten. Here it is again:




The other (this is the link I gave here in my first post) is my video about the kitten (I picked up the kitten on 4th of Okt, we got home at 5 am on 5th - Saturday and being very tired as we drove around 1300 km I made this video on Sunday morning. Right after making it, my husband took the kitten to a clinic here which was open on Sunday and asked for examination and official statement with read and recorded chip number).
This is the one video I made about the kitten and reality...





So no mistakes, illnesses stand, and this is how he looks like in reality, without powder, compare to this to the video which was used to sell him.


----------



## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

> Thank you. I feel the same, I can't see a way out, I feel very badly because of him no matter that it is not my fault. I have cats enough you know, the only-only reason was that I was saving money for a cat especially from this breeder is my Choosie who is my everything. I could cry as she is almost 8 now and I am terrified the time when she won't be with me anymore.


Does no one else find it appalling that the OP wants to breed an 8 year old cat? And the reason for this desire is to 'duplicate' the cat so that when Choosie is gone she still 'has' her? 

I pity the unloved unwanted sick kitten, and the 8 year old cat.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

outsider said:


> 'I see a kitten who has sore-looking eyes (could just be where the drops have run into his coat), but who mainly seems disoriented and wary because he is in a strange place. If he has been kept indoors, and especially if he has just arrived at your home, he won't be very playful because he will be exhausted, and will also need time to get used to his new home and people, AND if he hasn't been outdoors before he will be FRIGHTENED!'
> 
> You forgot something, he is ill, was officially diagnosed with luxated patella and bilateral conjuntivis!!!!
> He was with us when we bring him out very carefully for a short time in a secured small garden to have some fresh air and for us to be able to record his true condition with GOOD light conditions. And he enjoys garden very much and wait to be escorted back as because of his illness and protect my cats otherwise I have to keep him in a separate room, alone. I feel so sorry for him but can'r take the risk with a suspected virus infection (his eyes). And this kitten - thanks to us, starting to learn how to drink (he was chewing water! - i've never seen anything like this before) started to eat healthy food and enjoys raw chicken, quail, and beef, likes Orijen and he is not on liquid-ricepowdered junk stuff given from a syrengee what was given to us by the breeder, sleeps with my husband not to being completely alone as because of diagnosed eye-illness I can't let him together with my cats as I wrote!
> ...




If I reacted offensively it was because it seemed to me that you were someone who was prepared to breed an elderly cat just so that you could keep one of her kittens. TO ME THIS IS WRONG.

You then bought in a male cat to raise and breed her with, and are justifiably angry and upset that he isn't the kitten you expected (I WOULD BE, TOO), but then also say that you don't want him just as a pet - you have enough pets cats. TO MY MIND IF YOU FELT THIS WAY, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE GOT HIM AT ALL.

You do not neuter your pets because you want them to experience a natural life - does that mean that you allow them to breed every season? I'm sorry, but there are a lot of things that you are doing that i wouldn't do. I am really pleased that you feed a high quality food, and ensure good vet care, but other aspects of your posts disturb me very much.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Does no one else find it appalling that the OP wants to breed an 8 year old cat?


I don't think anyone involved in this sorry saga comes out covered in glory.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lorilu said:


> Does no one else find it appalling that the OP wants to breed an 8 year old cat? And the reason for this desire is to 'duplicate' the cat so that when Choosie is gone she still 'has' her?
> 
> I pity the unloved unwanted sick kitten, and the 8 year old cat.


YES! I do - and by the time the kitten is mature enough to breed (assuming he is healthy enough to use) she will be NINE!

I am willing to help anyone, but this poster isn't what I would consider a 'good' owner, let alone breeder.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

outsider said:


> _'Germany isn't that far. You are really going on a flyer buying a kitten unseen from someone you don't know.'_
> 
> I am foreinger without significant relatives here and have cats to take care. I do not have even free weekends or holiday as I am with them - so yes, Germany is a distance and they live far from airports (rural area), it takes more days to visit and of course costs extra money, too. I am sorry, is it really my fault that a dishonest person cheated me? :-( He was cute on video and on photos I had got about him, cattery was world-wide famous, I was not suspicious. End of story. :-(
> I also gave kittens to people (in UK) who did not visit because of distance or from Scotland, Ireland. They visit from short distances but not from long. They can have photos and video (true ones), they are not disappointed , this is how it works in my little-naive world.
> ...


As a breeder you should be going for type - i.e. how he looks in conjunction to the breed standards. Absolutely NO POINT breeding form a cat that has too high a nose leather, whether he is from the same lines as your Choosie or not, as you are breeding in a defect. There is a reason they say no higher than a certain point, as after that it affects the cats well being.

As for breeding from an 8 or 9 yr old cat - that's frankly disgusting. And I am now out of here.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

carly87 said:


> 1200 euros is actually pretty cheap for a stud cat believe it or not.


And it is a kind of excuse to 'cheat' with powder and calm-pills to hide illnesses? Or what do you mean? I could not expect better for this price? Low price (it is not low for me) is an excuse to do such things?


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I've looked at your video and he looks like a kitten who isn't getting groomed enough. Some Persians need a lot of work to keep them looking good, and they will never look in show condition (like in the breeder's video) without show grooming. Lots of them need their eyes cleaning several times a day, he looks to be one of them.

I have no doubt he's a Chincilla.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

spid said:


> As a breeder you should be going for type - i.e. how he looks in conjunction to the breed standards. Absolutely NO POINT breeding form a cat that has too high a nose leather, whether he is from the same lines as your Choosie or not, as you are breeding in a defect. There is a reason they say no higher than a certain point, as after that it affects the cats well being.
> 
> As for breeding from an 8 or 9 yr old cat - that's frankly disgusting. *And I am now out of here.*




I'll meet you at the "Stop and Nose Leather" for a quick one! (and for anyone who's wondering - I've remembered my purse!)


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Once you know he has leg problems, it is obvious from the breeder's video, too. He never gets up to run around the cat tree, or even take a single step into the direction of the toy, like a normal, healthy kitten would. But you need to be alerted to the possibility of the kitten having the condition to see it, it is not something you would automatically look for.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

outsider said:


> And it is a kind of excuse to 'cheat' with powder and calm-pills to hide illnesses? Or what do you mean? I could not expect better for this price? Low price (it is not low for me) is an excuse to do such things?


Many many persians owners and breeders use eye envy to clean up tear stains. It is the nature of the beast that their eyes run, and on a chinchilla it will show up a lot.

And no, Carly was not saying anything that you imply, merely saying that price was at the low end of the scale - how anyone could take that to infer anything, is beyond me.

LB - first round on you!


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

spid said:


> As a breeder you should be going for type - i.e. how he looks in conjunction to the breed standards. Absolutely NO POINT breeding form a cat that has too high a nose leather, whether he is from the same lines as your Choosie or not, as you are breeding in a defect. There is a reason they say no higher than a certain point, as after that it affects the cats well being.
> 
> As for breeding from an 8 or 9 yr old cat - that's frankly disgusting. And I am now out of here.


_'As for breeding from an 8 or 9 yr old cat - that's frankly disgusting. And I am now out of here'_

You are very harsh so forgive me but this manners of yours is disgusting to me. HAVE YOU EVER ASKED A CAT WHAT SHE WANTS? HAVE YOU EVER TOLD TO A MOGGIE GIRL THAT YOU ARE DISGUSTING TO MATE AND GIVE BIRTH IN YOUR AGE? 
DO YOU THINK THAT WE FORCE ANIMALS TO DO SOMETHING THEY DO NOT WANT TO DO?

I wish to suggest you something with good intentions: *Go and sit in front of your TV, and watch the movies of one of your country's most famous and respected english person Sir David Attenborough and learn, learn, learn, it will help! *(And you know now I am angry... Lot of people who thinks they know something about animals, interfere all the time, force their wishes to them all the time, neuter them, overvaccinate them believing with lobby and not checking researches and your biggest problem is a person who keep her cat on a natural way?

Congartulation to you , really.... And btw, we do not interfere like these very 'BIG' breeders, we do not stop breast-feeding to force the mother to mate earlier (how common otherwise among breeders), we give them a lot of expensive quality raw meat to be sure they can feed them conveniently (and they always do!) and about mating again in fact we rather prevent them to meet with a boy too early after having a litter (much later than they would wish to mate again) , we do not keep them locked or on cheap food to gain huge profit, etc, etc, etc. What are you talking about? How do you dare to write in this manner when on the other hand so narrow-minded and ignorant about cat's nature?

My cats are maybe do not fit to standard, but happy and healthy. You can watch any of my videos, will find plenty about kittens.

Sorry, I do not go after standards (I do not really even know them) I go after health and a kind of beauty. It may will be offensive - hope not and you'll understand my point - but in old times there were a silly and unhealthy fashion in connection with persians - like breed them with very short nose which is unhealthy. So much about standards, sorry. :-( What is the point to breed cats who will suffer because of eye deseases as short nose usually come together with short tear-channels? And it was THE standard.
So I myself like persians with a littlebit longer nose not just because of health reasons but it is my taste, too. 
On the point of people who just want a pet:
They wish a HEALTHY (no 1 requirement) and possibly beautiful (to their taste and no 2 requirement) cat and do not care much about standards wheter these standards are good or silly and harmful like very-short nose.

By the way, as I've mentioned here my Choosie several times like and example for the perfect cat (at least for me), here is a video about her, you can judge her health (body and mental, too). It is a very fresh one:

My beautiful Choosie  - YouTube


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

spid said:


> Many many persians owners and breeders use eye envy to clean up tear stains. It is the nature of the beast that their eyes run, and on a chinchilla it will show up a lot.
> 
> And no, Carly was not saying anything that you imply, merely saying that price was at the low end of the scale - how anyone could take that to infer anything, is beyond me.
> 
> *LB - first round on you*!


Oh - I've just realised that I only have a £5 note - what about you get the first round in to save me breaking into it? (Once you've broken into a fiver it goes nowhere, does it? I've hung onto it for a while for emergencies. It's one of those white ones the size of a pillowcase - you don't get them much now - wonder what happened to them. I blame the EU)


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Aww, sorry I don't even have a fiver so drinks are on your 1889 fiver or we shall have to sing for our liquid.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Sorry, I do not go after standards (I do not really even know them) I go after health


Really? You wanted a boy to do a completely inappropriate mating and you were having this one come hell or high water because someone would sell him to you. Your posts are a mass of excuses and complaints, laying the responsibility for this at anyone's feet but your own. It's the breeder. It's the vet. It's anyone but you. This kitten was not shipped to you. You went there, you had every opportunity to check this kitten out before taking it.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

spid said:


> Aww, sorry I don't even have a fiver so drinks are on your 1889 fiver or we shall have to sing for our liquid.


Fairy nuff. What about the Morecombe and Wise version of "By the light of the silvery Moon"

By the light

_Not the dark, but the light_

Of the slivery moon

_Not the sun, but the moon_

I used to spoon

_Not fork but spoon_

With my honey and croon love's tune. etcetcetc

Goes down a storm at a karryokey night.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Op it is not good to breed from an 8 year old girl really she would have been spayed 4 years ago to be fair to her.You may end up in c section this way.

I think the kittens eyes just need cleaning more often,and hes bound to at scared you only just got him.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

outsider said:


> _'As for breeding from an 8 or 9 yr old cat - that's frankly disgusting. And I am now out of here'_
> 
> You are very harsh so forgive me but this manners of yours is disgusting to me. HAVE YOU EVER ASKED A CAT WHAT SHE WANTS? No it's a cat, and it's can't answer. It's also an animal and doesn't have this sense of wellbeing that you imagine. HAVE YOU EVER TOLD TO A MOGGIE GIRL THAT YOU ARE DISGUSTING TO MATE AND GIVE BIRTH IN YOUR AGE? Oh yes, I have (to it's owners - the cat is not responsible for a collection of hormones that make it want to mate) and I find the people that deliberately let their cats breed and breed and breed disgusting too.
> DO YOU THINK THAT WE FORCE ANIMALS TO DO SOMETHING THEY DO NOT WANT TO DO?I think IF they had the reasoning skills of a higher level animal then they would say - "actually 2 litters by the age of 3 is plenty thank you. I'd rather not run the physical risks of litter after litter etc and to be forced by hormones and nature to give birth until I die, or develop breast cancer. " They don't have those skills so we, as responsible humans, do it for them.
> ...




I run a small cattery, probably smaller than yours, 2 queens only, I too allow the kittens to feed until they leave at 13 weeks, I feed raw and good quality wet, I try to get as big a gap between my litters as possible. I don't give chlamydia or FeLV vaccines. I breed for health (DNA tests done) and type (I DO know the breed standard well). I would not choose to breed a type of cat I considered had an unhealthy standard - I can't stand curls (as in ears) , or munchkins etc. But FOR THE SAKE OF MY QUEENS they will be neutered at 4 years (or earlier) and after no more than 3 litters AND ALL my kittens leave me ready neutered. I do not believe in natural always being the best, or we would still be living in caves, dressed in animal skins and eating raw meat.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

havoc said:


> Really? You wanted a boy to do a completely inappropriate mating and you were having this one come hell or high water because someone would sell him to you. Your posts are a mass of excuses and complaints, laying the responsibility for this at anyone's feet but your own. It's the breeder. It's the vet. It's anyone but you. This kitten was not shipped to you. You went there, you had every opportunity to check this kitten out before taking it.


Boy was offered to me by a world-famous breeder, (with plenty of winner-cats) she is an expert I am not that who is good for give genes and who is not. I just asked a cat similar to my Choosie (colour, temper).

You are right. I am the stupid one to hope to have a kind of help like a contact to a lawyer. And I am the stupid one to warn others not to be cheated like us. You are the clever ones here (some of you) who are offensive, suspicious towards me, want proof but even proof is not enough for you.
I am the stupid one to be naive and believing in ... human-nature? good persons?, etc.

I am here and upset that kitten is not healthy and not good for mating. Common sense, pls? It would be possible to mate with him you know, his leg or eye problem do not effect his balls but if your bad feelings would not affect your site you can realise that I am here because I do not want to let him mate as afraid of pass on his genes. THANK YOU SO MUCH! And I am here asking for help like legal help and besides this to warn other naive ones to avoid this cattery and you do nothing more than attact, attact, attact and force me to a defensive position.

Forgive me please but what you can show up (to be so great) which put you higher? Or it is just simply hatred, rudness, lack of empathy, or protecting each other's back among breeders that cheating and selling kittens with illnesses and for a fortune is acceptable and the victim is the one to blame? Yes, you were sarcastic but exactly the breeder the one who cheated, and her vet, too.

Good for you people and thank so much being so open and kind towards me... you insulted me (some of you) from the very first moment suspecting things and did not even read fact or proof. And now - I think it is understandable that being in a trouble, being cheated, feeling sorry for a bad-breeders' poor kitten - have so much self-control that will bend my head to you and leave your bad mannered, suspicious and insulting comments without answer? (And I apologize again from the ones who are not in this 'group' and really tried to help.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

This is a pet forum - not a legal centre. 

You have to take it up with the breeder. Any more advice than that and you need to go to a solicitor.

Just because the boy's balls work doesn't mean he is good for breeding as his genes come from his balls and he will pass on his bad traits. 

It is bad that he is ill - many have agreed. And I certainly wouldn't breed from him with those conditions as he will pass them onto his kittens. Go back to the breeder, threaten legal action. Ask them to take him back and refund your money. But I doubt this will happen, and the cost of legal action is likely to be more than the cost of the cat. Write it off as a bad one.

However, your further practises are the ones we are debating now. And the ones causing most consternation. Not good practise in the UK to be breeding form an 8 yr old queen. I don't know what you expect to hear really.


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Blimey - is it an inset day?


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

outsider said:


> Boy was offered to me by a world-famous, (with plenty of winner-cats) she is an expert I am not.
> 
> You are right. I am the stupid one to hope to have a kind of help like a contact to a lawyer. And I am the stupid one to warn others not to be cheated like us. You are the clever ones here (some of you) who are offensive, suspicious towards me, want proof but even proof is not enough for you.
> I am the stupid one to be naive and believing in ... human-nature? good persons?, etc.
> ...


No - it would be no different regarding being cheated. I think it is disgusting that this breeder is churning out unhealthy kittens, and disgusting that she is defrauding people the way she is. She has no rich to do this to anyone.

BUT it does not alter the fact that your queen cat is too old to breed safely, or the fact that you bought this cat without being prepared to keep him as a pet as you have 'enough' pets. (And yet you want another kitten, from Choosie)


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Sorry but now i have to step in, then i am also off this thread.

You are right when you say his leg or other problems doesnt stop him mating as yes normally a set of balls is enough......

BUT

You are seriously considering mating a female at 9 years old, sorry but i do find this cruel, my girls are neutered at 4years old even earlier if they have had a big litter, 9 years is really not acceptable, the poor girl.

Then you have to think of kittens being born with problems, yes the boy has balls but he does have problems which can and most likely will be passed onto kittens who do not ask to be born with sever problems, then you would not only have one cat with problems like your boy, you could end up with 5 cats needing special homes or worst still needing to be pts.

I think you need to sit down and really think hard of what you plan to do.

I feel sorry for this boy and i just hope he finds a loving home sooner rather than later.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

What kind of solicitor? I do not even know - as I am not familiar here - how to look for them (animal cases).

1. She is a pet and not a queen! (This is your world where they are queens, sorry, in ours they are pets who can give birth if they wishes - exactly on the way as nature / evolution wanted it.
2. Don't mention regulations to me till you did not make a revolution to prevent junk food advertisement and lobby or vaccination-lobby, where is the UK regulation which deals with the side-effects of vaccination and problem of overvaccination????? How can anyone rely or accept this rule or that rule while breeding persians with short nose is accepted, giving untested vaccinas to the poor animals is not hurt any rules or giving carbonhidrates to them.

Hippocratic.

I accept nature. I accept common sense. But how can I accept rules on an area which is not about animals real well-being and natural life but lobby and money-making? Good morning... by the way, I am happy to help and open your eyes.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

outsider said:


> What kind of solicitor? I do not even know - as I am not familiar here - how to look for them (animal cases).
> 
> 1. She is a pet and not a queen! (This is your world where they are queens, sorry, in ours they are pets who can give birth if they wishes - exactly on the way as nature / evolution wanted it.
> 2. Don't mention regulations to me till you did not make a revolution to prevent junk food advertisement and lobby or vaccination-lobby, where is the UK regulation which deals with the side-effects of vaccination and problem of overvaccination????? How can anyone rely or accept this rule or that rule while breeding persians with short nose is accepted, giving untested vaccinas to the poor animals is not hurt any rules or giving carbonhidrates to them.
> ...


Is your girl even active registered? Meant for breeding? Has she bred before?


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I don't know what type of solicitor - I'm not a legal advisor.

Any cat that can give birth is called a queen. It's the correct veterinary terminology.

1) My queens are also pets. You are being pedagogically pedantic!

2) I don't breed Persians - so before you call me a *hypocrite* maybe you best look and see what I DO breed.

Where is the revolution that you yourself have set up to counter the pet food industry?Or the vaccinations industry?

Don't call the kettle black when you (the pot) already are!

My eyes are WIDE open thank you.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Mine are opening wider with every post 
I can only assume from the attitude to vaccinations that the OP doesn't go along with selling vaccinated kittens - and yet earlier they complain about not being able to tell on a German vaccination certificate which ones had been given. It's impossible to give any sensible advice to someone playing the 'yes but' game.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Indeed Havoc indeed - would love to know the answer to WLBSHs question = though I think I know what it is.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

_'Sorry but now i have to step in, then i am also off this thread.

You are right when you say his leg or other problems doesnt stop him mating as yes normally a set of balls is enough......

BUT

You are seriously considering mating a female at 9 years old,....'_

OK that is enough, and thank you for your comment! The problem is not my cats who are happy and healthy in the way they live and they would live in every average house all around where they are pets and their owners respect them enough not to mutilate them.

The problem is that a world-famous breeder who is a kind of standard I think was albe to cheat, hide illnesses with calm-drops and powder and sold an ill kitten for a fortune to someone who is more honest has much hart towards animals and was not suspicious that a person like her able to breed kittens like this poor one (can't know his leg problem inherited or something else).
And the problem is that what the client can do in a case like this like who or which company is the appropriate legal help in this case?
And the problem is that what we can do to prevent cases like this, like warn others? (which hate me or not you should admit that would be a COMMON INTEREST).


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Iv got deja vu from months back,something very simular been posted infact could have been this poster,maybe.Hmm.I remember over and over something been mentions about how they feed expensive raw high grade diet so registrations wernt important.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

outsider said:


> _'Sorry but now i have to step in, then i am also off this thread.
> 
> You are right when you say his leg or other problems doesnt stop him mating as yes normally a set of balls is enough......
> 
> ...


What if your girl has difficulty giving birth at this age you could loose her,will nature takes its course?


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

How can you hide illnesses with powder, this i just dont understand.

All persians need eye care and wipes.

How long did you spend with this kitten when you collected him, did you play with him.

Why did you take him if you wasnt happy with him at the time.

Then on another level if he is gccf registered they have a complaints system so you could contact gccf and ask them on how to proceed with legal matters, or citizens advice may offer another way.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

outsider said:


> The problem is that a world-famous breeder who is a kind of standard I think was albe to cheat, hide illnesses with calm-drops and powder and sold an ill kitten for a fortune to someone who is more honest has much hart towards animals and was not suspicious that a person like her able to breed kittens like this poor one (can't know his leg problem inherited or something else).
> And the problem is that what the client can do in a case like this like who or which company is the appropriate legal help in this case?
> And the problem is that what we can do to prevent cases like this, like warn others? (which hate me or not you should admit that would be a COMMON INTEREST).


WE DON'T KNOW! We are a pets forum not a legal firm - you will need to ring around and ask proper solicitors.

We don't hate you either, we find your practises abhorrent, and your choices ill advised.

What to do - make sure that no matter what you go and check out a kitten (wherever in the world it is) in order to make sure you are getting what you want. Buyer Beware needs to be your mantra. When you get a pedigree cat make sure you follow all the guidelines and if it looks dodgy WALK AWAY.

Put it this way, we ain't giving you your money back.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

_'I don't know what type of solicitor - I'm not a legal advisor.'_

Than thank you and that is all.

_'Any cat that can give birth is called a queen.It's the correct veterinary terminology.'_
And? Vets go to Moggies to tell them that hey, you are queens from now on? 
Of course we are not the same, there are good owners and less good owners, last group is mainly full with good intentions but ingorant and believe in lobbies.

'_2) I don't breed Persians - so before you call me a *hypocrite* maybe you best look and see what I DO breed. _'

Because? What difference it would make, please? How your line, speciality, etc effects my case, being cheated? Or how does it help on the situation?
Or it is about like being on a stage and enjoying it?

_'Where is the revolution that you yourself have set up to counter the pet food industry?Or the vaccinations industry?'_

You know I - at least - spend long nights to learn and research about the subject on a language which is not my own and had difficulties so it was very tireing. I shared the info I got. I warn every future-owner asking them to read the 'zanza' version (short) to see the big picture and decide after this about vaccinations (what kind, how many, how often)

I myself contacted with a highly respected lady who was the first revolutioner in this country to rase her voice to protect our animals and I share what I learned thanks to her very hard and long work and fight.
I contacted one of the most famous expert of this subject (someone from US) who is a highly educated vet and researcher, etc, etc etc.

AND NOW, WHAT ABOUT YOU? (poetic, I do not care and besides does not about the point of the thread)

Good day to you all.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

The leg issue wants a diagnosis asap,you need to know if the cat had an accident or if its herederity.
Yes persians do need lots of eye care.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

outsider said:


> _'I don't know what type of solicitor - I'm not a legal advisor.'_
> 
> Than thank you and that is all.
> 
> ...


Byeeeeeeeeeee


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> The leg issue wants a diagnosis asap,you need to know if the cat had an accident or if its herederity.
> Yes persians do need lots of eye care.


Do not know the cause, we asked after it, and we got official (written diagnose) as we took him to vet her on Sunday to a clinic which was opened. They examined, told what was wrong the leg: luxated patella, and his eyes: bilateral conjuntivis possibly because of herpes virus. But they could not tell that leg problem is something inherited or result of an injurie.


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

spid said:


> Byeeeeeeeeeee


i thought so,page 8 http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/216560-genetics-breeding-8.html


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

we love bsh's said:


> i thought so,page 8 http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/216560-genetics-breeding-8.html


And there is my brilliant (and extremely eloquent) reply - and I was right - she had to go to Germany to buy, as over here she would be considered a byb. SO a byb has been had over by a byb - Karma!


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

_'WHo cares? I thought this thread was about your poorly cat, and no-one was allowed to talk about ANYTHING else. I don't care which experts you talked to in which field'_

Thank you so much to admitting that you are not care about the real well-being of your animal (btw I was answering to an other offensive comment), but your response is not a suprise. This is why do not think much about so called 'breeders' like you.

You accept reuglations even if they are silly or harmful to cats and use it as a blanket / cover - while you are ingorant about such an important part, but offensive towards others who took the time for the sake of the cats and did some research?

Again, congratulations to you, you know after knowing this - no matter what kind of regulation can be stand up or forced by lobbies - I feel true sorry for your animals no matter you call him pet or queen but they are not my responsibilty.

And this is the reason - this ingorance together with opinionated manner - that 'BIG' (what a joke) breeders soon run out of healthy animals.

But I am always happy if I can help not for you but for your poor animals. So READ THIS which btw not so offtopic considering that this can be a reason for unhealthy kittens and high kitten-mortality I experienced in this german-cattery and you should be deeply ashamed if you are a breeder, decide about cats' life and you were ignorant to take time and knowing it already!!!:
'http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/vets-on-vaccines/'

Btw, being a breeder what kind of responsible advices are you able to offer to your customer for the future' sake of your kittens if you do not follow and research important and health related topics?


----------



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

outsider said:


> Do not know the cause, we asked after it, and we got official (written diagnose) as we took him to vet her on Sunday to a clinic which was opened. They examined, told what was wrong the leg: luxated patella, and his eyes: bilateral conjuntivis possibly because of herpes virus. But they could not tell that leg problem is something inherited or result of an injurie.


I believe luxated patella this can either be genetic or caused by injury.


----------



## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

outsider said:


> 'WHo cares? I thought this thread was about your poorly cat, and no-one was allowed to talk about ANYTHING else. I don't care which experts you talked to in which field'
> 
> Thank you so much to admitting that you are not care about the real well-being of your animal (btw I was answering to an other offensive comment), but your response is not a suprise. This is why do not think much about so called 'breeders' like you.
> 
> ...


Hmmm I wonder who you are ........a name rings to bell..... :huh:


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Hmm, now shall I be really disheartened by someone who breeds cats at the age of 8 or 9, and knows NOTHING about my practises yet decides to call me a bad 'so-called' breeder. 

Nah, don't think so. 

I too have researched vaccines, food and health etc (you have NO IDEA about my protocols so can't call me out on it) and I have found experts who agree with what I do (again you don't know what I do so can't call me out on it)

ALL my cats are loved, and healthy and cared for. But you don't care about that, and I don't care what you care either. 

BE VERY CAREFUL what you say - otherwise the laws of slander and liable will come down firmly on your head.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

outsider said:


> What kind of solicitor?
> 2. DoI accept nature. I accept common sense. But how can I accept rules on an area which is not about animals real well-being and natural life but lobby and money-making? Good morning... by the way, I am happy to help and open your eyes.


It is you whose eyes need opening.
Breeding from a 9 year-old cat is not in the interest of the cat, in fact keeping a cat unneutered for so long poses SERIOUS health risks, such as mammary and ovarian tumours and inflammation of the uterus and ovaries.
So it is common sense to have a cat spayed at the age of 3 or 4.

Breeding from a cat with leg or hip problems is not in the interest of the kittens, as the defect may be congenital, and therefore probably hereditary. So unless you have a whole lot of genetic tests run to see whether he carries any hereditary defects and whether their lines are compatible in other ways, you may find yourself stuck with an entire litter of kittens with leg problems.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

By the way, it may be 'natural' for cats to remain unneutered, but in natural circumstances (in the wild), queens rarely live beyond the age of 5. They die in childbirth, or from exhaustion after having litter after litter, or from disease.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

spid said:


> And there is my brilliant (and extremely eloquent) reply - and I was right - she had to go to Germany to buy, as over here she would be considered a byb. SO a byb has been had over by a byb - Karma!


I do not know what you are taking about as do not know some short marks you wrote, but I am far from the point to hope a real help on this playground where I can see ingorant, uneducated so called breeders and where selling ill kittens with cheating is acceptable and victim is the one to blame, or the one who's character must be killed / ruin to help carry such a businesses.

You are not suprised that what a german breeder could afford, how to cheat (wow, it is a practice here, too that you took this part without a word???) but make assumption to prove to yourself that you are the reborned Puthia.

Your assumption btw fals, and if you had read it instead of playing a mean Puthia's caracter you would have known it why exaclty Germany and that cattery instead of going to Russia or Hungary or whatever. It was on the first threat.

But yes, I must admit I probably won't buy kitten from a UK breeder  after what I saw and experienced here - or maybe I just haven't find the right one yet. This ignorance that the other breeder here just has shown up together with your 'main concern' on the subject is just frightning. How can anyone breed healthy animals if they are not on proper food (cost effective way or simple ingorance) and / or overvaccinated? No thank you.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

Cheryl89 said:


> Hmmm I wonder who you are ........a name rings to bell..... :huh:


What does it matter who I am? Because? It will change the matter? Selling kitten with illnesses and covering it with powder and calm-drops?


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I think you are missing the point completely.....

If you are breeding from old cats, that should long since have retired, you are a back yard breeder.

If you are breeding indiscriminately, without genetic testing, and without observing the genetic desirability of mixing certain bloodlines, you are a back yard breeder.

You choose a stud because he is from the same line as your queen. Wouldn't that greatly increase the risk of inbreeding? Do you know the lineage of both cats for at least 5 generations? Are you absolutely sure they are not too closely related?

I get the impression you don't know the first thing about genetics and couldn't care less, as long as the cats _look_ nice...
How else can you even consider breeding a cat with a severe leg problem, which the kittens might well inherit?
Typical back yard breeder.

The people on here who you call bad breeders are the ones that go to great lengths to ensure the health of the cats they breed, and of the breed as a whole. Which is the complete opposite of what you are doing.


----------



## Cheryl89 (Jun 24, 2013)

outsider said:


> What does it matter who I am? Because? It will change the matter? Selling kitten with illnesses and covering it with powder and calm-drops?


For someone with "54" posts you seem to know an awful lot of "what goes on here" as you just stated from what you've "seen" and "experienced"??? :huh:

I think the way your talking to people is seriously unbelivable to be frank and if you don't like what you read... then don't post here instead of arguing with everyone.

You're a BYB who got done by a BYB ... it's pretty simple really and you live and learn


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

outsider said:


> But yes, I must admit I probably won't buy kitten from a UK breeder  after what I saw and experienced here


Good....
For I am quite sure no respectable breeder would want to sell a kitten to you. Your attitude with respect to general health and responsible breeding is truly appalling.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

outsider said:


> <SNIP>calm-drops?


What are these 'calm-drops'?


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Woah 
You have been rude and insulted all the breeders and cat owners on this forum - I'll give you credit for your persistence!
Perhaps now it's time to consider why nobody agrees with you. So who is in the right here? 
I don't have a clue why you keep going on about food / lobbies / vaccinations. 
You don't know anybody on here and are not in a position to criticize us. You asked for advice and got it. Not what you wanted to hear perhaps, but that's life.
Yes you have been conned - I think you need accept it and move on instead of taking your anger out on the nice people on this forum 
Em


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> By the way, it may be 'natural' for cats to remain unneutered, but in natural circumstances (in the wild), queens rarely live beyond the age of 5. They die in childbirth, or from exhaustion after having litter after litter, or from disease.


It is true. But now cats are dies early (lot of them) because of overvaccination, inbreeding (PKD), inproper-food (dry food and kidny connection) etc - what has happend? We, humans, interfered.

My opinion is that cats are living things (creatures of nature / evolution / God)
we are not above them and we are even do not have the right (or should not) to decide about them till we have lobbies work for pure money and make them sick or let them make sick in this way.

So I think while a cat is healthy and fitt enough she / he must feel that what can do or can't. I thought about it much in the last years but can't have a good solution you know. Even if I would interfere like neuter an older cat - I know someone exactly from here who lost cat because of the process of anesthesia and had other several bad experience due to the lack of professional knowledge of vets here (sorry), it was a necessary surgery but neutering a healthy and happy female is not abolutely necessary. I can't ask her what she would choose. So I let nature 'run' and interfere just as much as I do not let cats mate so often as they would wish?

What other option left?
Lock it to a room? What kind of life it would be for her? No, sorry. I observed that cats feel it somehow, so my oldest mate rarely and give birth just 2-3 kittens (average is 5-6 if you keep them on proper food and not junk rice-filled something) so I assume she will finish giving birth when she feels it is time.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

moggie14 said:


> <snip>
> Yes you have been conned - I think you need accept it and move on instead of taking your anger out on the nice people on this forum
> Em


Maybe we have. I've come across someone complaining about a kitten on a forum before and eventually it turned out they were telling a load of porkies.


----------



## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

"we are not above them and we are do not have the right to decide about them till we have lobbies work for money and make them sick in this way"??? You've lost me


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> What are these 'calm-drops'?


Apparently, the OP suggests the cat had been drugged before the photos were taken, so he had wide pupils and she could not see the colour of his eyes.

The OP never saw the cat before buying, except for photos and a video, as it was too expensive to travel to Germany.

Well, if I was spending £1200 on a cat, I would most definitely not buy unseen....


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

You SO do not listen. :nonod:

My cats are fed raw and good quality wet food - they do not go near the devils dry.

My cats are not over vaccinated.

And yet you insist - with no evidence what so-ever that my cats and therefore my kittens are unhealthy?

You call me ignorant and uneducated (along with the other breeders on here) and why? Can't be because of the food issue as we all basically agree with you. Might be with the vaccination issue because we haven't actually agreed, but neither have we disagreed. As we aren't exactly sure what you are advocating - I'm assuming homeopathy - but I struggle with that - as it supposes that a drop of *"water has memory. And while it's memory of a long lost drop of onion juice is Infinite, it somehow forgets all the poo it's had in it!*" TM

I suspect it's because you believe keeping a cat entire forever is the natural way to go,and we don't. There are MANY well documented reasons as to why keeping a cat entire for that long is unhealthy. And to why breeding from a cat of that age is unhealthy. ANd many, many experts agree that it is the wrong thing to do.

So because you don't like the scientific facts that we know (I suspect facts are merely opinion in your world) you call us ignorant, and uneducated, and bad breeders. You are being called out on your practises and so brand all UK breeders as ignorant and people you would never go to. But forget that fact that you aren't registered and don't believe in registries etc. SO no-one would sell to you anyway. Not a proper breed, only bys.

I agree that there are many, many back yard breeders, I don't know the breeder you are talking about, I haven't looked her up, I am not surprised that it happens. It is sad that it HAS happened and that you were duped. But it is not unknown and when you buy a pedigree cat you have to do an awful amount of research and you don't go to the first person that says yes you can have a kitten. Another poster on this thread looked her up and immediately came up with the same issues you have. Did you do your homework properly? No it's not good, but it isn't unusual. And that is very unfortunate.

Not sure what this Puthia thing is all about ? I did look it up - it's something to do with Hinduism and Rajism. Not sure how that is an appropriate thing.

I think you think we are hounding you because you just can't believe that we don't agree with you. That you can't see any other view than your own blinkered one. Disagreements are not bullying.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

moggie14 said:


> "we are not above them and we are do not have the right to decide about them till we have lobbies work for money and make them sick in this way"??? You've lost me


Anti-nmeutering, anti-vaccination activist.

The kind of unneutered, unvaccinated cats that spead cat flu and parvo.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

outsider said:


> My opinion is that cats are living things (creatures of nature / evolution / God


And therein lies the rub!:nonod:


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

moggie14 said:


> "we are not above them and we are do not have the right to decide about them till we have lobbies work for money and make them sick in this way"??? You've lost me


Sorry, my english is not very good, so I have to check my comment and correct it, it is slow and you already answered before I finish it properly.

Do you know what is the most common reason of cats' death nowadays? As far as I know they dies of somekind of kindey-desease. Reasons of desease?

1. Inbreeding - inheriting PKD
2. Dry food - cats originaly something desert-kind-types they tolerate lack of water quite well for a while but do not feel thirth well. Which means they are unable to drink enough for dry so keeping them on dry will ruin their kidneys sonner or later.
3. Overvaccination (long term side effects / autoimmun deseases) this one is a very long topic so if anyone are interested in I am happy to help with links where to read about it.

But as we (humans) are ingorant, and let that lobby run which force vaccination eg (yearly boosters or unproperly tested vaccinas in use) and let run advertisement where food with rice is good to them and close our eyes (even vets, so they are the ones who should know best that cats are CARIVORES but no matter you can find food with rice on the shelves on clinic and not a word from vets not to use it, am I right?)

Based on this we do not have the right to override nature and order this or that to cat, we are not good enough to do this in my opinion.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

outsider said:


> It is true. But now cats are dies early (lot of them) because of overvaccination, inbreeding (PKD), inproper-food (dry food and kidny connection) etc - what has happend? We, humans, interfered.
> 
> My opinion is that cats are living things (creatures of nature / evolution / God)
> we are not above them and we are even do not have the right (or should not) to decide about them till we have lobbies work for pure money and make them sick or let them make sick in this way.
> ...


What utter poppycock.
The death rate among unneutered, unvaccinated cats due to parvo and cat flu, not to mention FIP, is 100 times higher than the risk of any adverse effects of vaccination.

So it's God's will the poor cats get breast cancer, ovarian cancer or potentially lethal infections?
Your old cat is so much more likely to die in childbirth than a young cat, and you are faciltiating that risk.

You don't believe in God, you are PLAYING God.


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

spid said:


> And therein lies the rub!:nonod:


? Can't follow.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

outsider said:


> ? Can't follow.


Shakespeare quote. (sorry my education rose it's ugly head)


----------



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

Jiskefet said:


> What utter poppycock.
> The death rate among unneutered, unvaccinated cats due to parvo and cat flu, not to mention FIP, is 100 times higher than the risk of any adverse effects of vaccination.
> 
> So it's God's will the poor cats get breast cancer, ovarian cancer or potentially lethal infections?
> ...


OK PEOPLE I AM FED UP WITH YOUR IGNORANCE NOW

1. No one wrote that no vaccination at all - it is your bad assumption. And on this point be so kind and google after eg. leukemia's vaccina because I found the followings: its effectieveness is about 60-70% (how to measure it while it was proven that some cats with good immun system met with this virus, and won - it is a fact) while in my personal / social circle I know at least 5 people who lost cat because of this vaccina.
Good morning!

2. Poor cats had less cancer before vaccination, and please go and educate yourself again, eg vaccinas are full with mercury and aluminium-hydroxide and they are not just can cause autoimmun deseases but we should mention the unproper food, too as anyone (even humans) tend to develop cancer if immun-system become weak eg because of lot of poisoning junk-food.

No, I do not believe in God. I tried to being respectful this is why I wrote oprtionally nature /evolution / God to everyone can find the suitable. I believe in nature an evolution and on this point I am deeply sorry that you people here proven to be so ....

Put your hands on your heart! How is it possible that you here breeders or catlovers do not have the knowledge I have? I am just so disappointed and sorry to turn to you, my mistake but you do not seem to the ones who can help or even can give a good advice.


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

OP, with respect, I think you are insane. Heaven help any poor sucker who buys a kitten off you: unvaccinated, probably not dewormed (worm medication is "unnatural" too, you know), unsterilised, BYB stud, elderly queen. :nonod::nonod:


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I assume you must be having another baby every year, yourself, too...
And I guess you will refuse treatment if you get cancer.

Or do these 'natural, devine rules' not apply to you?
If not, you should do well to offer the same favour to your pets as well.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Put your hand on YOUr heart and tell me WHY you don't listen to what we are saying

A VAST number of the breeders on here FEED A RAW DIET and steer clear of dry food - all do genetic testing and make sure they do not breed cats with defects.

A VAST NUMBER of the breeders on here are concerned with vaccinations and make sure they DON'T vaccinate for leukaemia and use vaccinations that don't contain mercury etc. Many, many are aware of the problems you talk about and do something about it. Why aren't YOU taking that info in? 

And we agreed that you were duped and that that was sad.

ANd you call us uneducated! Geesh!

You are SO GOOD at making HUGE assumptions (*nice distraction technique though*)

SO exactly where is your problem?

AH yes, we come back to the using of a 8/9 year old cat to have kittens. :nonod::nonod:


----------



## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

Just out of interest Outsider, how much do you charge for your kittens? And, as you are considerate enough to let them 'choose' to continue to breed long into old age, do you also let them 'choose' whether the kittens are sold or not?


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

OP, do you realize cats can also have Down Syndrome?
And do you know the risk of Down greatly increases with the age of the mother?
The same goes for many other congenital defects and disorders.

Breeding an old queen isn't just bad for the mother cat, it is a hazard to the kittens' health as well.


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I dont have time to read through all this thread sadly but outsider you have asked Spid a direct question on what she offers from being a breeder and this question i can answer.

Spid offers full support to new owners of her beautiful kittens, not just for a few days but for a lifetime, i know this as i own a kitten bred by Spid.

She breeds to the highest standard and spends so much time socialising the kittens and looking after her queen, she feeds top quality food and to be honest i am now following in her footsteps with my own kittens as i have seen the difference.

Spid can not improve on her breeding as she covers everything and is the most experienced and knowledgable person i have ever met within her breed.

This is the kitten i have been so lucky to own, there is no fault with this kitten and even the vet has praised Spid highly for her breeding of such beautiful kittens.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

catcoonz said:


> I dont have time to read through all this thread sadly but outsider you have asked Spid a direct question on what she offers from being a breeder and this question i can answer.
> 
> Spid offers full support to new owners of her beautiful kittens, not just for a few days but for a lifetime, i know this as i own a kitten bred by Spid.
> 
> ...


Oh did she ask me that? I missed that - but thank you so much for answering for me and in such a nice way too! I'm all embarrassed now.


----------



## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Yes it was inbetween telling you basically you knew nothing 

Luckily Margo the pf kitten is on the look out.

Must say i was surprised the vet said raw was better and i should feed to my own kittens, of course Margo was happily purring away getting strokes and cuddles from everybody, in the waiting room is a sign to keep cats in baskets for their safety, but apparently this didnt apply whilst there was Margo cuddles to go round.

Margo is a good weight, just wanted to get her registered with my vet so they said i had to take her in, they just wanted cuddles didnt they, sneeky move. Plus they had never seen a sr before, but they have now.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

<snip>
1. She is a pet and not a queen! (This is your world where they are queens, sorry, in ours they are pets who can give birth if they wishes - exactly on the way as nature / evolution wanted it.

And then:

and about mating again in fact we rather prevent them to meet with a boy too early after having a litter (much later than they would wish to mate again)
/<snip>

So you are even contradicting yourself! You are preventing her from meeting a boy after birthing, so you are not allowing her to live out her "wishes" if that's what you call them. Mind you, I'm firmly in Spid's camp. Although I do know some breeders who have bred the occationsl girl until the age of 7 or 8, they have done so with very, very long rests in between litters, and only if the cat has been in incredible condition and has not struggled with feeding or caring for big litters. Personally, I don't have a set age for spaying. It all goes on the cat's health and what's best for them, but to breed a girl at 9? When she's most likely had quite a few litters before? That's pushing it more than a little!

Now, as to hiding illnesses with powder, she didn't hide it from you. You clearly state that she powdered his eyes right in front of you, so you knew that was going on. Persians have runny eyes, and yes, sometimes it's caused by a virus, but more often than not, there's nothing going on other than excessive tearing. This unfortunately stains the furr of the cat. Many good breeders will make the buyer aware of this, then will powder the cat to make them look their best for their new owner. It's no more sinister than bathing a kitten to have them at their best for their owner to collect. You need to expect tearing with Persians.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Just on another point, to be very fair, and it does really pain me to admit it, not everyone will travel multiple times to the country of origin when importing a cat. i took a huge risk and didn't travel at all, not because I didn't want to, but because I couldn't physically get the help I would have needed to go there. Many breeders simply have a long dialogue with the breeder of the import. Then they will either travel to collect, or have the cat shipped directly to the UK, so I don't think it's fair to brand Outsider as idiot for not travelling multiple times. Mind you, like the rest, I have plenty of other issues!

I can't seem to find the cattery name. Could someone repost it?


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> OK PEOPLE I AM FED UP WITH YOUR IGNORANCE NOW


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I can only assume the ignorance you mean is any disagreement with your views, disagreement stemming from hundreds of years worth of combined experience but yeah, you could be right and everyone else wrong.

There's an old saying keeps running though my mind as this thread runs on, it goes 'you can't con an honest man'.


----------



## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Just on another point, to be very fair, and it does really pain me to admit it, not everyone will travel multiple times to the country of origin when importing a cat. i took a huge risk and didn't travel at all, not because I didn't want to, but because I couldn't physically get the help I would have needed to go there. Many breeders simply have a long dialogue with the breeder of the import. Then they will either travel to collect, or have the cat shipped directly to the UK, so I don't think it's fair to brand Outsider as idiot for not travelling multiple times. Mind you, like the rest, I have plenty of other issues!
> 
> I can't seem to find the cattery name. Could someone repost it?


Cattery wasn't named, but there is a video by the owner of the cattery on page 3.
Will send you a pm with the cattery name and some links to pages about previous rip-offs


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

carly87 said:


> Just on another point, to be very fair, and it does really pain me to admit it, not everyone will travel multiple times to the country of origin when importing a cat. i took a huge risk and didn't travel at all, not because I didn't want to, but because I couldn't physically get the help I would have needed to go there. Many breeders simply have a long dialogue with the breeder of the import. Then they will either travel to collect, or have the cat shipped directly to the UK, so I don't think it's fair to brand Outsider as idiot for not travelling multiple times. Mind you, like the rest, I have plenty of other issues!
> 
> I can't seem to find the cattery name. Could someone repost it?


I know you have particular problems over travelling, but you appreciate you took a risk - a big risk. I'm sure you would have if you could, and for those that do travel I hope they do it after a long dialog, when they are on the point of buying the cat or kitten.


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Have to say I've never heard of them but then I don't breed Persians. (really honestly I don't)


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I hope they do it after a long dialog, when they are on the point of buying the cat or kitten.


One which would include some interest in the pedigree maybe? If the lines were so important I'd have thought that was the first thing you'd want to see before even entering into any form of serious negotiation.


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

My goodness!!! What was all that about 
I am going to close this thread - oh and remove the name of the breeder too in case of libel issues.


----------

