# Oriental Short Hair - which colour?



## RiaSiam (Jun 28, 2021)

Hi Everyone,

I'm completely new to this forum so apologies in advance for any errors..

We recently took home a beautiful Oriental Short Hair - her mum was a Havana and her dad a caramel spotted tabby - both very beautiful but I'm not 100% how we should describe our new addition. I think she MIGHT be a chocolate spotted oriental but I think she might have a bit of ticking / shading to her colour. But I'm definitely not an expert. Would love to hear some thoughts!

Oh and she has a spotted belly but she's not a belly rub fan so I have no non-blurry pics of her belly! We love her regardless - she's definitely a pet with no plans to breed or show at all just generally intrigued. We have a redpoint siamese boy as well and he was a lot easier to define


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Her papers should have her colour, as should her breeder. What base was her dad - blue, lilac, or fawn? A bit hard to tell from these photos, but she's most likely a spotted tabby, like her dad.
I'm sure @OrientalSlave will be along when they're able - I don't have much experience with chocolate (Havana) or double dilution.


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## RiaSiam (Jun 28, 2021)

Maurey said:


> Her papers should have her colour, as should her breeder. What base was her dad - blue, lilac, or fawn? A bit hard to tell from these photos, but she's most likely a spotted tabby, like her dad.
> I'm sure @OrientalSlave will be along when they're able - I don't have much experience with chocolate (Havana) or double dilution.


Thanks for tagging someone who might know! Her breeder and papers say Chocolate Spotted but I was just reading about all of the different types and was just questioning it a little because her colour doesn't look quite the same as other pictures I have seen. I'm not an expert though and I know there is so much variation in this wonderful breed
I met her dad and his spots were much more evident than hers even though he was older.


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## RiaSiam (Jun 28, 2021)

And dad was lilac based


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Yes chocolate. There are many shades of chocolate from darker to paler, and colder to warmet


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

@RiaSiam your pics look different depending on the light but the one with the harness shows she is definitely chocolate. Is she already adult?

She is also definitely a chocolate spotted tabby. I think you are questioning her pattern but the terms ticking and shading have very specific meanings. She is not ticked. That pattern has no spots or lines on the body but rather resembles a rabbit coat. A shaded is a tabby cat whose pattern has retreated to the ends of the hairs leaving a clear base. That tends to develop as the cat matures.

It is hard to produce tabbies with excellent patterns so it is likely your girl is just not such a good example as her dad. Even though her mother is a self, she still has a pattern that will have an influence on the offspring. What you think may be shading is probably just a rather unsound coat. She is still a lovely cat.


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## RiaSiam (Jun 28, 2021)

QOTN said:


> @RiaSiam your pics look different depending on the light but the one with the harness shows she is definitely chocolate. Is she already adult?
> 
> She is also definitely a chocolate spotted tabby. I think you are questioning her pattern but the terms ticking and shading have very specific meanings. She is not ticked. That pattern has no spots or lines on the body but rather resembles a rabbit coat. A shaded is a tabby cat whose pattern has retreated to the ends of the hairs leaving a clear base. That tends to develop as the cat matures.
> 
> It is hard to produce tabbies with excellent patterns so it is likely your girl is just not such a good example as her dad. Even though her mother is a self, she still has a pattern that will have an influence on the offspring. What you think may be shading is probably just a rather unsound coat. She is still a lovely cat.


Thanks so much for the explanation. She is still a kitten so I'm sure there are lots of changes still to develop. Our beautiful red point has amazed me as he's grown and the genetics of siamese and orientals are so fascinating. I've read some great posts in this forum about them.

It's hard to photograph but her colour in her hairs are almost half chocolate and half a silvery colour at the base hence thinking she might be shaded but I'll wait and see! She is absolutely lovely and that's the main thing. I was just intrigued after reading about the different types of tabbies but none of the articles had good photographs. Our siamese was craving cat company (he has made a lot of friends with his cat neighbours!) so we got her as a friend for him and their personalities are great with one another - and he's such a lovely big brother.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

If you are interested in Orientals, have a look at this thread https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/celebrating-orientals.425854/ It is no longer active but there are some pics of some of the good and not so good tabbies I bred in the 1990s and in later pages, a lovely chocolate spotty one of our members used to show with great success.


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## RiaSiam (Jun 28, 2021)

Thanks for this. I just had a good read through - so interesting and lovely to see pictures of all the varieties. I wish there was a source with a picture of every eventuality but it would take a lot of effort! But glad I am learning the lingo a little bit more. 

Our red points dad was a fawn oriental and he was stunning. But no regrets on our newest addition. I think if I read the show feedback on the beautiful Harley correct our girl has 'agouti' to her chocolate colouring. But she's stunning in our eyes! I'm sure our boy wouldn't be up to show standard either but to me he is the most beautiful cat I've ever seen (sorry Nala - our new girl)!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I would love to know who your red point's dad is/was.

Spotties are hard to get a clear pattern because the spots are small compared to the agouti so it is much more likely to invade the pattern. This is a chocolate girl I bred decades ago and you can probably see the ends of the agouti hairs showing over the spots. (Not very good spots either!)


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## RiaSiam (Jun 28, 2021)

QOTN said:


> I would love to know who your red point's dad is/was.
> 
> Spotties are hard to get a clear pattern because the spots are small compared to the agouti so it is much more likely to invade the pattern. This is a chocolate girl I bred decades ago and you can probably see the ends of the agouti hairs showing over the spots. (Not very good spots either!)
> View attachment 471403


Yeah I can see the challenge! Still lovely though 

I just dug out his certificate and his dad was Wil O'Bellea Chelsangels - but I think he only had one litter and had to be rehomed as he wasn't taking to breeding life. The grandparents on that line were Adjulor Toffee and Sensual Pretty Penny. Is that helpful? I don't know how much info you can get from from a name alone? Perhaps the numbers are more useful?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

RiaSiam said:


> Yeah I can see the challenge! Still lovely though
> 
> I just dug out his certificate and his dad was Wil O'Bellea Chelsangels - but I think he only had one litter and had to be rehomed as he wasn't taking to breeding life. The grandparents on that line were Adjulor Toffee and Sensual Pretty Penny. Is that helpful? I don't know how much info you can get from from a name alone? Perhaps the numbers are more useful?


How interesting. I haven't a clue about those cats. @OrientalSlave Help please!


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## RiaSiam (Jun 28, 2021)

QOTN said:


> How interesting. I haven't a clue about those cats. @OrientalSlave Help please!


I'm not surprised - he was from a small hobby breeder. The only champions on his cert from his dad's side (if I'm reading it correctly? Having the prefix of CH or GR CH?) are back in his 5th generation - Sybella Zindactu, West garth Silver Heels, Gelcline Blacklace and Shadowsquad Infidelity. I looked the breeders up and they're still breeding I think.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

RiaSiam said:


> I'm not surprised - he was from a small hobby breeder. The only champions on his cert from his dad's side (if I'm reading it correctly? Having the prefix of CH or GR CH?) are back in his 5th generation - Sybella Zindactu, West garth Silver Heels, Gelcline Blacklace and Shadowsquad Infidelity. I looked the breeders up and they're still breeding I think.


None are still breeding, at least one has died


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